Potentially a stupid question but... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: sbmotoracer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 30, 2018, 01:03:44 pm
content: Want to start off by saying hello. :-) First post.This may seem like a stupid question but is it possible to buy a bga rework station like the Scotle IR6000 without a built in preheater and if not would it be possible to have the ir heater in the top have a separate power source then the lower heater?Most stations (barring the ones that look like a mix of a heater and a hot air station ie T862) that I've found are all 240V. I get the reasoning behind making it 240V, the combined wattage required to drive both the heaters together but as someone who only has access to one 240v/15 amp circuit which is currently being used to heat the house that's gonna be a hard sell to my gf to turn off every time I need the station.I'd love to wire another 240v line but as we are renting this townhouse vs actually owning, I doubt they would approve it.If it helps, the types of boards I would be using it for would mostly be consoles.Thank you for the help and pls pardon me if what Im asking is silly. :-)

author: t1d
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2018, 11:11:10 pm
content: Well, it is hard to imagine your situation. I do not know the household supplies for your area. So, maybe provide that info. If 110vac is available, as in the US, just buy a 110vac unit. They're readily available.Otherwise, look on YouTube for work-around methods... I built a DIY reflow oven, for about $50USD. People use clothes irons, electric skillets, hot air guns, etc. and get the job done.What is your current project? What are your long term desires? What equipment do you already have - soldering iron and multimeter make/models? What are your electronic DIY skills? Give us some info and we can help you more...

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 01:47:43 am
content: The T862 ,T870A,and T890 are all available in 110V 60hz or both 110/220v 50/60hz configuration with IRA .A standard 110-120V outlet are typically rated 15 amps and can safely take 12.5 amps for extended periods of time.1500W space heater uses about that much.As long as the unit doesn't exceed 1600W or 13 amps it's fine.

author: sbmotoracer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 05:32:46 am
content: @t1d - I live in canada so im stuck with 120v lines. I can't rewire some of the plugs since I don't own the house I live in. I do have one 240vac plug but its currently being used by our in wall hot/cold ac.I'd like to try my hand at bga repairs. Long term I'd like to be able to replace the cpu/gpu chips or the southbridges on all types of consoles. Largest chip I'd be working on would be a ps4/xbox one gpu/cpu chip. If theres a 110vac reballing machine, I have yet to find it. The only ones I can find on sites like Ebay are either 240vac or tiny 110vac rework machines that I worry would either be too small to evenly heat up a large board like the ps4.My hope is to find a machine that either doesn't have a built in bottom preheater or one that's powered separately so I can plug them into 2 separate 120vac circuits in the house.@Jwillis - would either of those machines be able to handle a board as large as the ps4/xbox one? From what I understood from the link below was that a beefy preheater would be required to keep the board warm enough to avoid flexing,etc.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/which-bga-rework-station-to-get-scotle-achi-or-something-else/Equipment I've got is pretty basic:Neiko 40508 multimeter/ a few different sized probesamazon soldering iron (don't know the brand sorry)Baku 858A hot air station

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 05:39:05 am
content: If you need 240V there's a trick that works, but the usual disclaimers apply. Find two receptacles that are on different legs of the panel, take two cords and put the hot wire from each on each side of a 240V receptacle, that will get you 240V between the two hots just like you'd get from a proper 240V circuit. It's reasonably safe to do, if you plug it into two receptacles that are on the same leg then you'll get 0V between the hots.

author: sbmotoracer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 05:43:11 am
content: @ james_s Do you mean something like this:If so wouldn't that (according to the youtube comments) have a huge electrocution/fire risk?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 05:51:18 am
content: Yes, like that.Electrocution risk? Well if you do something dumb like unplug one of the plugs with a load still connected to the adapter then you could end up with 120V on exposed prongs, hence my comment that the usual disclaimers apply. At the end of your adapter you'll have 240V which can certainly bite you, but obtaining 240V is the whole point. Fire risk? Not sure how you'd manage to start a fire, maybe if you plugged 120V gear into your new 240V socket, so don't do that. If you've got the aptitude to do BGA rework then I'm going to guess you've got enough sense not to electrocute yourself or burn the house down. I generally ignore youtube comments, it seems to attract idiots like moths to a flame. Post a video about anything even vaguely hazardous and you'll have dire warnings pouring in.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 06:57:24 am
content: The hazards could be minimised if you designed a circuit to sense each input lead has Line and Neutral present on the correct pins and Ground connected, and if both are OK, and their Lines are in spec for voltage and opposite phase, energise a 20A four pole contactor to connect L1 and L2 to the output and connect both Neutrals to the output. That way if either lead gets disconnected, it automatically gets isolated, so its pin are safe.

author: sbmotoracer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 08:42:53 am
content: @james_s - fair enough. I'm curious though if such a thing were possible, why would anyone bother with a step up transformer. Also in something like that how would you account for differences in the circuits breakers. Ie one plug has a 20amp breaker while the other has 15amp breaker.@Ian.M - You wouldn't happen to know any company who has designed such a device that would be able to do that?

author: cs.dk
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 09:33:44 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 31, 2018, 05:51:18 amUse another connector type, so no one can put something in the 240V outlet by accident

author: Bratster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 09:59:51 am
content: Quote from: sbmotoracer on December 31, 2018, 08:42:53 amIf you don't need high power 240 volts it's much simpler to just do a step up transformer.Then you don't have to deal with locating 2 outlets on different phases, since most likely that will be in another room so then you have extension cords running around Etc.But for high-power 240 volts like what you need, a step up transformer becomes expensive, heavy, and most importantly requires way too much power input at 120 volts.And in that case making an adapter is not a completely terrible idea. But you still need to separate outlets on different circuits.so most likely you will need a cord running off into another room in addition to the room that you are in.Ideally you would include some relays in this adapter so that it only connects the output when it gets both inputs. That also make sure that there is never any exposed voltage on the male pins. and if a circuit breaker trips it will protect any other loads on that circuit from possibly seeing voltage.Sent from my Fi Moto x4 using Tapatalk

author: Bratster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 10:02:06 am
content: In regards to one circuit being 20 amps and the other circuit being 15 amps you would be limited to the lowest amperage circuit.So in that case you would only have 15 amps available before that breaker would trip.Sent from my Fi Moto x4 using Tapatalk

author: t1d
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 04:59:00 pm
content: IR6500 @110vhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/IR6500-Infrared-BGA-Soldering-Rework-Station-Repair-Heating-Machine-110V-1250W/332843069999?hash=item4d7efe322f:g:powAAOSwrFtaDlCh:rk:9:pf:0

author: sbmotoracer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 04, 2019, 08:20:22 am
content: Sorry for the late reply, been dealing with some "fun" migraines these past few days...@Bratster/@cs.dk Would a step up transformer be able to handle the initial high draw from a bga machine? Im assuming the inital draw would be something akin to when a Ac starts up it's motor. Most high 2000+ watt step ups im finding on amazon are $100ish dollars.While I wouldn't mind running extension cables, my biggest concern would be them coming unplugged since I'm not the only one living here. Closest non kitchen plugs would be upstairs. I wouldn't even begin to know how to design something that could 100% disconnect the power leads when one is unplugged.@t1d - How did you find a non 220Vac bga machine? I've spend over 3wks trying to find one lol. By any chance do you live in the US or only use the US ebay? I wonder if the .com listings are different then the ones shown on the .ca site. But thank non the less :-)

author: t1d
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2019, 10:54:07 am
content: Quote from: sbmotoracer on January 04, 2019, 08:20:22 amI fought those, as a youth. I said a prayer for you.Quote from: sbmotoracer on January 04, 2019, 08:20:22 amI don't know about the shipping issues. I would contact the seller and ask if they would send it directly to you. If they will only send it to the US, I have heard of professional reshippers... You use their address to receive it, here, and they reship it to you. You would have double postage, but I don't think the reshipper's handling fee is supposed to be all that bad. Maybe someone has experience with doing that...I think I have bought things off of the other national Ebay sites... The one for Great Britain, maybe... But, yes, different things are listed for different markets. A portion of that has to do with the manufacturers, themselves, limiting their market areas.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2019, 04:49:17 pm
content: I wouldn't expect there to be a large startup draw, the load will primarily be heating elements which are just big resistors in effect. The issue you are likely to encounter is that if the machines you find are all 240V it may be because they draw more than the 1800W you can pull from a standard 15A 120V receptacle.Do you have an electric clothes dryer? Those will be 240V and you can make an adapter to plug into the dryer socket, that's what I do when I need to weld something at home.

author: sbmotoracer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 07, 2019, 08:59:25 pm
content: @ t1d - Thank you :-)I figured that different markets may have a unit or two that don't list on the .ca site but Im honestly shocked at how many are on there that will only ship to the US/Europe but will refuse to ship across the border. I've delt with some of those reshippers you mentioned before and it might be cheaper to rent a car and drive to the seller then use them.... ( last time I tried to order a $5 bag of candy from the states they wanted $50-$100 USD to reship depended on the speed of the delivery. I can only imagine how much a bga machine would cost lol.@ james_s - I figured as much in terms of the power draw but in your opinion would a console board require that large of strength a heating element? I'd prefer a 110Vac machine but if a 220 is required for them then so be it. As for the dryer, I'm not sure. I'll have to check when I get home from work tonight.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2019, 01:41:35 am
content: I really have no idea, I've never used a machine of that type. The hot plate and hot air station I use for SMD work don't use a particularly large amount of power though.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2019, 01:59:11 am
content: I have a hair dryer that claims to pull 1750 watts. No idea if it really does. It was cheap is the reason I have it.There is no reason that *any* SMD rework system would use a lot of power. There's not enough thermal mass to heat up. A large reflow oven would, but that's a whole other world.The only instance a rework station would use a lot of power is coming up to temperature.My Weller 750 heat gun says it uses 1680 watts. That I believe. I used it recently to desolder a bunch of crystals in metal cans. It was quick. But I had to be careful about how I pointed it to avoid collateral damage. I didn't time how long it took, but 10-20 seconds was probably all it took after it had warmed up. I waited until it had warmed up before desoldering the cans because the vise holding the xtal was 2 ft from my test gear. And I did not want to melt the plastic knobs.If I do that sort of thing more I'll build a metal shield.You should have no trouble handling a large board if you modify an electric griddle for good temperature control and make an insulated cover for it.FWIW I'm setting up to teach myself to do SMD rework. I bought an Aoyue 2703A, but initial trials showed I really need to bring the entire board up to 100 C. I'd been wondering what to do with a slew of ancient PCs and now I know. I'm going to practice removing and reinstalling chips, testing each time if the PC still works afterwards.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2019, 02:07:24 am
content: The hair dryer likely pushes a lot of air faster. If the air was slower it would be way too hot to use on hair but hot enough for desoldering or stripping paint. Precisely adjustable temp and nozzle size makes it well suited for rework.You're right about preheating, its much more predictable and pleasurable if the board is already half of the way there.Quote from: rhb on January 10, 2019, 01:59:11 am

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2019, 06:08:23 am
content: There's no reason to suspect the hair dryer doesn't pull 1750W, those ratings are usually quite accurate. With the volume of air moved by a typical hair dryer you need a LOT of energy to make it hot. A hot air rework station will be moving vastly lower volumes of air.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2019, 02:10:04 pm
content: I remember watching with amusement as hair dryer wattage ratings climbed to the limit of a standard 15 A outlet which is the only reason I mentioned it. I'm surprised the remark drew so much attention.The point I was trying to get across is that a standard 120 V circuit is more than enough to power a rework station. The initial power draw might be large, but once it's up to temperature it will drop substantially. A modest amount of insulation will reduce the draw for a thermostatically controlled preheater to very little once the device has warmed up.

author: sbmotoracer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 11, 2019, 04:43:51 am
content: If an 1800 watt rework station would be able to comfortably handle most boards then why do we have rework machines that have bottom heaters that consume the same amount of watts as a 120v line with a 15amp fues like:https://www.ebay.ca/itm/LY-IR6500-V-2-IR-BGA-rework-station-soldering-system-Infrared-reballing-machine/322515180186?hash=item4b17671a9a:g:GDIAAOSwA3dYJDMr:rk:2:pf:0I'm not disagreeing with anyone just legitimately curious as I don't think rework manufactures are going to have a ... waving contest with watts consumed. I can't imagine the higher heat output would mean anything over a certain amount.

author: not1xor1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2019, 07:45:19 am
content: Quote from: sbmotoracer on December 30, 2018, 01:03:44 pmno question can be more stupid than a subject that does not provide any clue about the content of your post

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2019, 01:48:35 pm
content: Quote from: sbmotoracer on January 11, 2019, 04:43:51 amThat's a nice looking unit. But not a good thermal design. The board is fully exposed so the heat losses are huge. I wouldn't want to run that on a summer day. That's a reflow oven with no sides or insulation. When you turn it on, there's going to be an 1800 W 8" x 10" space heater running even if the board is much smaller.Here's what I plan to construct:A slide out adjustable board mount similar to theirs.An insulated forced air oven to slowly bring the entire board to 85-125 CHot air gun mounted as shown.A small IR heating element under the hot air gun if tests indicate heating the back of the board is needed.BTW That unit is usable on a standard 12 AWG, 20 A 120 V circuit with an appropriate change from a 15 A to a 20 A receptacle and a step up transformer. However, it will trip the breaker if anything else is drawing current on that circuit. In modern NEC code construction the kitchen circuits will be your best bet for drawing 20 A. Typically each counter will have a separate circuit.Other options are the electric dryer outlet and the electric stove outlet.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 08:19:42 am
content: Quote from: Bratster on December 31, 2018, 09:59:51 amhttps://hackaday.io/project/4818-a-quick-220-clone

author: Bratster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 08:30:18 am
content: Quote from: amyk on January 12, 2019, 08:19:42 amYep, that looks niceSent from my Fi Moto x4 using Tapatalk