Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2021, 01:56:48 pm
content: Just checked the ISO on i386 vanilla..Works absolutely as it should:PROs:- good light fast responsive INITD (for real stuff)- all things ready to casual deploy of base or advance use- xterm and basic stuff available- good default scripts.CONs:- crippled XOrg base install - using lightdm instead of XDMCP- too much bloated stuff for base install- *ALOT* of USELESS launcher gizmos under the hoodOVERALL ? very good.https://9to5linux.com/systemd-free-mx-linux-21-officially-released-based-on-debian-gnu-linux-11-bullseyeShot attached on vanilla QEMU VM ...IMHO? fast light and usablePaul

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2021, 03:55:25 pm
content: If the name MX Linux is not familiar, it sprung from the former MEPIS community, with some tools from antiX.Links:MX Linux home, anddownloads. The latest release, MX Linux "Wildflower", or just MX-21, was released in October 2021. In addition to XFCE, there are variants with Fluxbox and KDE Plasma desktop environments.I haven't used the latest version not at all, so do not have an opinion. MX Linux is definitely a desktop user oriented distribution that you can use with or without systemd.In comparison, systemd-related packages arebannedin base Devuan Chimaera, the version based on the same Debian 11 Bullseye as MX Linux Wildflower is.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2021, 05:40:44 pm
content: I am all curious aboutwherethese names came from..a PET? likeImpish IndriA cursed chickWildflowerWTF these names help us... yet to figure...but I give a shit for that..They have put together a very good option set from i386 to x64all with choices.. being based on a stable Debian... good enough..give me a break with these names..and crappy desktops ..MIMIC windooze just does not help at all.Paul

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2021, 09:05:16 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on October 26, 2021, 05:40:44 pmDirectly from a list. Devuan picks the names from theMinor planet names list; seehere.That page mentions that thereisone reason to use release names (that I was previously unaware of): in .deb packages, using the release name instead of the version number (that would clash across debian-derived distributions), ensures consistent package dependencies.(Like I've mentioned before, I too do prefer just straight-up version numbers myself. But, when you deal with nontechnical humans,theytend to fail with the numbers, and do much better if stuff is given names. With .deb packages, using the release name also kinda-sorta defines the distribution, so clashes by mix-matching package sources should be minimized.)Quote from: PKTKS on October 26, 2021, 05:40:44 pmI don't see windows-mimicking here. Naming versions is a decades-old if not centuries-old practice from science and engineering.As to the desktops, I really like XFCE and LXDE.XFCEis very lightweight, fast, and modular, but doesn't have much bling. I like the lack of bling myself.(LXDEis similarly lightweight, fast, and modular, and has some optional bling. Mostly, the difference between XFCE and LXDE is in the default apps. In both, you can use Gnome and KDE Plasma applications, too. It's only the menu, dock/taskbar and its special applets, file manager, and utilities, that are specific to your desktop environment, really.)KDE Plasmais those who feel better using their tools with some designer bling.Choosing a desktop environment is important, but by no means irreversible. Not that big of a deal, if you change your mind. It is completely possible and normal to have different desktop environments, selectable at login time. It takes some "extra" disk space (libraries and such stuff), but that's about it.When customizing a desktop environment for a set of users, the choice of which desktop environment works best definitely depends on the users, in my opinion.In an organization, customizing the look with some proper graphics design (but without sacrificing usability or functionality) seems to work very much like branding in marketing; in my experience, it seems to make it easier for the users to take control of their tools, suggest enhancements, and so on.In my opinion, the ability to switch desktop environments, and having multiple desktop environments in the first place, is a huge plus; something neither Windows nor Macs really have. The modularity and configurability is exceptional – if we exclude Gnome, which does seem to be travelling in the Windows/Mac "we know better, you don't need to customize anything" direction.When I customize a new Linux desktop installation for myself, I not only arrange stuff how I like them – like keyboard shortcuts, my custom udev rules for microcontroller development, my browser addons and configuration, my text editor dark custom themes, my custom scripts and utilities in~/bin/–, but I also do stuff like set up default page templates in LibreOffice and Inkscape to my own liking. I usually take a lazy day to explore if there is some better stuff I could switch to (like I switched from gedit to pluma), and do all that prep work; but then, even a completely new distro feels likemine, like slippers that have just moulded to your feet but still "new", not yet ratty from use.The next desktop I'll build will have two NVMe's (probably Samsung 980 Pros, either 512 GiB or 1 TiB), so that I can have even more fun playing with virtual machines.The storage speed is absolutely crucial nowadays with respect to the "snappiness" of the system. Even with a weak CPU (or a virtualized CPU limited to a single core), if you have fast enough storage, stuff tends to work acceptably fast. With virtual machines, if you have lots of RAM and fast storage, you don't need much CPU resources to have it respond snappily.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 03:49:12 pm
content: Looks likemajordistros are forking Debian dropping that shitty resource hog systemd...MX and nowantiX... personally I dropped even EUDEV on my systems..But EUDEV (from gentoo) is the best UDEV replacement..https://antixlinux.com/antix-21-grup-yorum-released/https://youtu.be/mUicofUy3BkNice very clean and light with plenty options to deploy a minimal station.i386 with fluxbox SysV runs on any imaginable gadget..Paul

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 05:38:12 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on November 01, 2021, 03:49:12 pmeudev is dead.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 05:45:11 pm
content: All my base system from a decade now forks LFS.LFSstilluses EUDEV as a fallback to UDEV in a systemd free setup.I ditched both at all.I consider them a major security risk.No daemon or applet should ever create or delete a single device on a sane system.But you know,.. MIMIC windoozee... and make a PC looks and behave like a TOASTER..press button PUF.. bang... ding...Paul

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 06:58:24 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on November 01, 2021, 05:38:12 pmNo, Gentoo just switched to sys-fs/udev instead.eudevis now independent of Gentoo project, and is supported by Alpine, Devuan and Gentoo contributors, and doing just fine: it's not going anywhere.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 07:27:09 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 01, 2021, 06:58:24 pmGood to know.. and it should not go anywhere really.It is a placeholder stable enough to fill that nasty requirement.BTW.. I LOVE Alpine linux very much...on e of the best lean distros out there..Paul

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 07:30:48 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 01, 2021, 06:58:24 pmOh, I hadn't seen any announcement someone picked it up. Good to know, I guess.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2021, 03:12:32 am
content: Quote from: PKTKS on October 26, 2021, 01:56:48 pmI use a debian install by preference and never taken a look at MX so I'm not sure if this is releavent.I currently am using lightdm as my display manager and I have XDMCP configured and working well so can you explain a little further how MX using lightdm is a problem for XDMCP users? Did MX screw something up?My issues at the moment have little to do with the display manager. Most of the bugs I run into seem to be XFCE4 releated. For example XFCE4 no longer allows multiple sessions. If you create a second session it dies silently following login. Well known problem and no likely fix as the defect was closed. I've also had issues with NVIDIA and DRM (incompatable openGL libs). I will ditch XFCE just need some time to find something else lightweight (it's just not been a priority).

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2021, 09:38:04 am
content: It seems to be an undisclosed trend to demote X as much as possible.. eventually replacing all X parts into what seems to be wayland...This is not clear to me but surely there are sponsored interests promoting wayland with lightdm instead of the full X stackArguments as usual.. old this too much that.. developers this modern thatFact that nothing so far is capable to replace the full X stack including XDM used to offer the services. There is nothing similar.Reason why another remote protocol proprietary but suddenly offered free is being largely voiced on midiaSo far X is too powerful to put current business on top of itSeems it will be "deprecated" to allow the current CORPORATE KIOSK computer to continue as in the last 4 decadesIt means DEMOTE XDM and replace that with single display model... lightxxxIMHOPaul

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2021, 12:39:25 am
content: Quote from: PKTKS on October 26, 2021, 01:56:48 pmAre you aware thatlightdmnowadays supports XDMCP? You only need to addenabled=trueto/etc/lightdm/lightdm.confto enable it. Not having it enabled by default is a separate thing, and really a distro decision; remember, MX Linuxisa desktop distribution, so having a local DM too is kinda important.Or is there a bug or issue I'm not aware of? (Theonly related one I'm aware ofwas reported in Dec 2017 and fixed in Jan 2018, and involved issues closing an XDMCP session. I don't often use XDMCP, so I could easily have missed it completely.)lightdmis a Canonical project, but since it is hosted atgithub, the most visible thing is that its releases are sync'd to Ubuntu releases; if you look at theclosed issues, you'll see that bugs affecting non-Ubuntu distros are either self-gotchas or fixed just like those in Ubuntu. It's not a bad little daemon, in my opinion.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2021, 12:41:16 am
content: Quote from: PKTKS on November 02, 2021, 09:38:04 amKind of my memories of working with the LTC, very tied up in the latest technology, up their own as'es about how great it was and how they were leading the way etc. Could not understand that outside of their elite circle it was just a tool to get the job done, known one cares about how neat it is on the outside if it's there to run the business and get the work done.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2021, 08:12:04 am
content: Scattering developers...Promoting fragmentation...Multilple apparently doing same thing applets...Demoting the inners of the full X stack to achieve what?Obviously a sponsored and well known method to implod the whole thingFollow the money and think who benefits from the above ....This business is not mindlessPaul

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2021, 11:50:07 am
content: Quote from: PKTKS on November 03, 2021, 08:12:04 amIn Ubuntu et al., lightdm replaced gdm, which to be honest, is a buggy piece of shit. To me, the history looks more like Gnome developers doing their inane thing,necessitatingsomething else to take its place. Lightdm is used for exactly that, replacing gdm with something better, more robust, and more lightweight, in the distros I use.If I had to use gdm, I'd fucking rewrite it from scratch myself, it was that bad.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2021, 03:26:27 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 03, 2021, 11:50:07 amTried KDM way back in 2000s ...So many trouble and unreliable things...Dropped them all.Nobody needs nothing besides plain xdm - reliable light and easy to deployNever changed .. 2...3 decades ago..Paul

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2021, 09:50:47 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on November 04, 2021, 03:26:27 pm

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2021, 10:46:40 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on November 04, 2021, 09:50:47 pm

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2021, 04:42:35 am
content: As I've mentioned before, the existence of alternatives is crucial for the entire ecosystem to thrive and compete, so even if I were to use a specific one of the alternatives and believe itcurrentlythe best among the bunch, I'dstillsupport the development of the alternatives, to keep the competition healthy and future options open.The two-decade history of the GNOME Project, or indeed how Red Hat slowly shifted from a proponent of open source to just another vendor with a walled garden were the vendor knows best, should be reason enough.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2021, 08:54:08 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on November 04, 2021, 09:50:47 pmFunny but not true at allWe need duplicates even triplicates of things just in case as pointed by NOMINALBut vendors need a particular solution for themselves only as also pointed by NOMINALAnd that is the first case you just muck me instead of insultingProgress...Paul

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2021, 02:26:48 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on November 05, 2021, 08:54:08 amWell, you did writeQuote from: PKTKS on November 04, 2021, 03:26:27 pmso you must admit, your post did reada bitlike that, at least with respect to display managers.There are a couple of reasons to use LightDM instead of XDM, though:LightDM has built-in support for suspend if you close the laptop lid while in the greeter. XDM will not, wasting battery.LightDM lets you select the desktop environment you want to use at login time. XDM always uses the current default (last active) desktop environment.The first one would be hard to fix in XDM; it is a designed-in feature of LightDM. The latter could be added to XDM, if one wanted to, without too much hassle.I use a laptop and sometimes switch desktop environments to check something out, so LightDM fits my needs much better than XDM does.If I used XDM, I would have to remember never to leave it running in the greeter (as that'd waste energy), and to change desktop environments I'd have to log in to manually switch my desktop environment first.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2021, 02:39:37 pm
content: the real problem I have is pythonWhen python is used to manage everything, packages, upadates, configuration, etc, it's a serious problem if you have to maintain four versions# sys info python-execpython2.7python3.7python3.8python3.9and I cannot remove anyone of them because they have different dependencies with the rest of system.Not good for me, I'm working on cleaning these things up, but hey? Things have gotten a little complex recently ain't it?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2021, 02:48:25 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on November 05, 2021, 02:39:37 pmDefinitely. I prefer one, 3.x (with x >= 6), but will accept two (the other being 2.7) if Python 2 support is really needed for something. And, like I said, I don't usepip3because I want the system package manager to manage the version dependencies. Sometimes that means making a local Debian/RPM package of a Python 3 library, but even that is preferable to the dependency hell you can get into with pip3. All Python code I myself write is for 3.6+ (i.e., requires Python 3.6or later).

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2021, 04:24:13 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 05, 2021, 02:26:48 pmActually I solved both issues way back in 2000s something.After nasty problems with these XXXdm herd .. GDM KDM WDM and others..Each one requires a proper toolkit version.. matched things..I got sick of them all. Reverted back to XDM using the plain session managerSecure safe login and start my own "DESKTOP" chooser.The chooser is written in Perl::GtkStill tied to Gtk ( and PERL) but orders of magnitude safer.I can log off in case I am mobile or just shut down the server to console blank auto saver.Problem solved for good.. 20y ago more or lessSHOT attached..the manager cares to initialize whatever "desktop "i needWhich happens to have a MONITOR SERVICE PATTERN AS WELLThings of a service bench only..Those never initiated with X session management will not see howsimple stable and bullet proof this solution is..TheOFFbutton puts the session in console modeauto saving starts in one minute.Paul

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2021, 04:27:51 pm
content: The BENCH service desktop session will start a pattern generator..which can be attached in any monitor under service on the bench.MultiHead support allowed me to use that with a single session...Also written in PERL::Gtk - very simple efficient solutionThe OFF button will switch OFF the proper output managed byxrandrPaulPS> Patterns are generated w/proper resolution..They helped me to service some hires SVGA monitors ..Although today HDMI panels are less "adjustable" they still serve me sometimes..Attached a colorbar adjust pattern