CFM for solder fume extractor - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: matthuszagh
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2023, 10:11:32 pm
content: I created a solder fume extractor that pulls air out my window. I used a Hakko Loc-Line kit (https://hakkousa.com/products/fume-extraction/999-205-02-loc-line-kit-with-rectangle-nozzle.html), a duct fan, a window duct connection, and ducting. I've included an image of the setup (sorry, I know it's a little difficult to see parts of it - happy to post pictures of specific things if desired). The duct fan allegedly goes up to 190 CFM and the tubing is 3" and 4" diameter. I thought 190 CFM would be plenty, judging by the CFMs of the Hakko FA-430 (https://hakkousa.com/products/fume-extraction/fa-430-with-duct-rectangular-nozzle.html#specifications) (145 CFM) and JBC fume extractor (47 CFM), but it feels pretty weak. My iron has to be quite close to the extractor nozzle for the fumes to go there. So, now I'm looking at duct fans with much higher CFMs. Has anyone else done something similar? If so, what CFM do you use? Any other thoughts? I felt around for leaks near the connections, but didn't really notice any.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2023, 12:36:48 am
content: What is the model number of the fan? Is it adjustable in any way? Is there any restriction or filter on the window going out?I would, if you don't need the extreme length, try to shorten up the "U" loop of your ducting a bit. Though I don't expect that to make a massive difference.190CFM should be more than enough.Maybe a video for comparison or something, you want the duct close to what you are soldering.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 07, 2023, 12:43:57 am
content: You need to consider static pressure spec, not only airflow. If fan cannot create decent static pressure, it won't be able to push much air through the hose even if airflow spec looks great.

author: matthuszagh
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2023, 01:38:15 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 07, 2023, 12:36:48 amThis is the fan I bought:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DXYMGOM.There are no restrictions or filters.Quote from: thm_w on November 07, 2023, 12:36:48 amThanks, yeah I was thinking of doing this. I was also considering replacing the 3" tube between the table mount and the duct fan with the 4" tube (which I already use between the duct fan and window and can just cut in half).Quote from: thm_w on November 07, 2023, 12:36:48 amHere's a link to a video:https://drive.google.com/file/d/14KPpslDBWGuwFeUQIrGubUMNN_xw4VUo/view?usp=sharing.

author: matthuszagh
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2023, 02:03:13 am
content: Quote from: wraper on November 07, 2023, 12:43:57 amThanks for pointing this out. Any idea what I should be targeting, or how to figure out what sort of static pressure I need?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 07, 2023, 08:29:48 am
content: I'm not an expert in that but it depends on hose diameter, length, smoothness of its walls and air flow you try to push through it. Expandable hoses like yours certainly create much more air drag than a smooth duct. Fan with higher CFM but lower static pressure spec likely will not provide any improvement and could be a downgrade actually. I meant that you should look at static pressure spec too because it's always a tradeoff between airflow, static pressure and somewhat noise when designing fan blades.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 07, 2023, 08:45:59 am
content: Quote from: matthuszagh on November 06, 2023, 10:11:32 pmThose fume extractors likely have airflow spec with hose attached and everything else restricting the airflow. While your fan most likely has spec when totally unrestricted.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2023, 10:56:42 pm
content: Quote from: matthuszagh on November 07, 2023, 01:38:15 amIts a proper duct fan, 60W, I would expect that to work well enough. Though they don't give a static pressure rating on amazon ortheir site.The video shows normal behavior to me, its completely capturing the fumes once you have the iron ~20cm away from the inlet. You need to position the vent either very close behind what you are soldering, or vertically above what you are working on to catch the rising fumes. You could get a more powerful fan but without a lot of work the noise level would be unbearable IMO.Look at how close they position the inlet at 00:31 in this video:

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 07, 2023, 11:33:21 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 07, 2023, 10:56:42 pmI expect it to have shaded pole motor which have terrible ~25% efficiency. This inefficiency becomes very obvious if you look as 120/230V AC fans like this onehttps://www.amazon.com/230V-Cooling-Fan-120mm-38mm/dp/B0071HDDY0effing 20W, DC brushless fans of this style and similar airflow/static pressure spec consume only about 1/4 of that.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 07, 2023, 11:39:27 pm
content: Interesting. In Amazon listing one picture shows obvious shaded pole motor, another picture shows BLDC, one that is way more fake looking.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2023, 12:04:53 am
content: Quote from: wraper on November 07, 2023, 11:33:21 pmSure, thats why its cheap. But its designed to do the job, move air through a duct with a bit of restriction.If you want more efficiency you can get proper DC fan as you say, it looks like this is a comparable DC model:https://vivosun.com/vivosun-aerozesh-g4-inline-fan-p146097781066261532-v146123521342167154

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2023, 12:28:00 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 08, 2023, 12:04:53 amWell, I was meaning that its power is worth about 15W of computer fans. So you should not expect much from it.

author: matthuszagh
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2023, 04:02:54 am
content: I'm currently looking at:https://acinfinity.com/hydroponics-growers/ventilation/inline-fan-systems/cloudline-a4-quiet-inline-fan-with-speed-controller-4-inchbut still waiting on the manufacturer to provide specs on CFM at different static pressure levels. But, initial thoughts/opinions on it certainly appreciated!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2023, 10:12:10 am
content: Quote from: matthuszagh on November 08, 2023, 04:02:54 amNot worth it. I will be about the same and maybe even a little bit worse.

author: matthuszagh
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2023, 07:22:24 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 08, 2023, 10:12:10 amOk, thanks for the input. FYI, they sent me these specs for the units (attached plots). GDFP100 is the unit I was looking at. To get from Pa to inch H20 multiply by 0.004 and to get from m^3/h to CFM, multiply by 0.589. I don't have much info on static pressures and what's a good CFM at those pressures, but I figured McMaster-Carr probably sells quality products, so I compared it to this:https://www.mcmaster.com/19135K111/. That has 143 cfm @ 3/8 in. of H2O. The AC infinity unit has 135 cfm at the same pressure. If we assume the McMaster unit is good, then this unit doesn't seem so bad. But, obviously that's a big assumption since I have no idea what's "good".If you have any ideas about things that would serve me well I'd love to hear them. I know you mentioned DC brushless motors. The AC infinity units are apparently EC motors, which from a quick search is a DC motor driven by a rectifier and filter and PWM. Is that not the sort of motor that would be good here? Thanks again for all your input.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2023, 10:50:09 pm
content: I don't really see why you are looking for fans, the existing one works fine IMO.Unless you are absolutely OK with the noise level and don't mind it being louder, then you can get whatever reasonable quality higher CFM rated unit is out there. If you care about power efficiency then a brushless one.Static pressure here is not a major issue, for a duct fan, as we are not running through any filters.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2023, 10:59:32 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 08, 2023, 10:50:09 pmIt may be a surprise for you, but many fans that are optimized for airflow and low noise noise will become nearly useless if need to push air for more than a few meters through the duct.https://www.fanco.com.au/how-does-ducting-impact-fan-performance/Quote from: matthuszagh on November 08, 2023, 07:22:24 pmI see no point changing the fan for something in the same ballpark of performance. You won't see any noticeable difference from 10% improvement. You may want to look at centrifugal type duct fans for higher performance, although at a cost of a higher noise.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2023, 11:01:53 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 08, 2023, 10:59:32 pmI know, but not duct fans designed to do the task. If this were the case their reviews would likely reflect that.

author: matthuszagh
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2023, 11:04:31 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 08, 2023, 10:50:09 pmIt's fine - it could be better. I'd be much happier if the extractor could suck up solder fumes when my iron is further away. I'd happily trade more noise for that.The cfm spec for the JBC extractor is really low and I really wouldn't be happy with that extractor given how close the iron was to it (assuming it actually had to be that close).Quote from: thm_w on November 08, 2023, 10:50:09 pmYeah I suppose if static pressure is not limiting the performance and I am getting 190 cfm or close to it, then I'm looking in the wrong place. But presumably, using a lower duct size than the intended one for the fan does increase static pressure, no? I can get a fan that is both higher cfm and higher static pressure in a 6" diameter. I can do that, but then I'll need to adapt down to a lower size at some point - at the very least at the bench mount point.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2023, 11:06:42 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 08, 2023, 11:01:53 pmAt this airflow, duct diameter, its length, and the fact it's not smooth it has quite significant impact on performance though.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2023, 11:08:48 pm
content: Quote from: matthuszagh on November 08, 2023, 11:04:31 pmTry one of the 400-500CFM units then. You'll have to go to 6 inch and adapt the ends as you say.I can't focus with that much noise but maybe others can.

author: pope
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2023, 09:12:27 am
content: I have a very similar setup/ problem. I believe the bottleneck (!) is the adaptor from 4" down to 2.5" for the loc-line. Also, mine is attached to a chimney.Having said that, why don't you put the fan on a stool? You will get rid of at least a meter of unnecessary duct.

author: matthuszagh
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2023, 05:03:34 pm
content: Quote from: pope on November 09, 2023, 09:12:27 amHave you experimented with fans with good CFM under higher static pressure? If so, has that helped?Quote from: pope on November 09, 2023, 09:12:27 amYeah, good suggestion - I will. I just need to find a stool...

author: pope
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2023, 05:37:51 pm
content: Quote from: matthuszagh on November 09, 2023, 05:03:34 pmTBH, I have no clue what "high static pressure" is...I usethis onethat supposedly is 160CFM/ 275 m3/h but I'm not extremely satisfied.It's not very quiet either but bear in mind that a lot of the noise is actually coming from the ducting. The fan itslef is rather quiet, when nothing is connected to it.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 06:14:25 am
content: Quote from: matthuszagh on November 08, 2023, 11:04:31 pmIf you have more than *one* 90º bend in your duct you are destroying fan performance. And this is with some minimal radius in that bend. You have way more bending than that. Pros place a second inline fan in their ductings after the second 90º bend.Worst bend is probably the one just after the fan, really tight one. Perhaps you should google a little bit looking for duct design documentation. Meanwhile, I suggest to you some trials with the less bend possible, and a bend radius over a foot as the bare minimum, before purchasing anything.Edit: correction, the worst bend is probably that absolutely unnecessary 180º one near the floor before the fan. I would bet you'll get anything between threefold or tenfold performance by getting no more tan one 90º bend. It could be easily done if you think just a little bit about it.Edit2: get rid of that blue thing, it's another big choke. Also, if that room has the door closed, not enough air will be able to enter, while you are extracting perhaps 20% of room air volume/minute (depending on room volume). That means another restriction. To get air out of the room, it has to enter that room first, otherwise, no fan can work against the negative static pressure that will be established after just a couple minutes working. A little 12V salvaged centrifugal fan can be substituted for a 90º bend with great advantage. The tighter the bend, the greater the advantage. Having greater diameter, smooth duct will certainly help. Rectangular duct is better than round. But your main sin right now is too many, too tight bends in your ducting, and probably also that blue mouth. Get rid of that and you'll see much better results ipso facto

author: pope
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 11:59:52 am
content: Quote from: tatel on November 11, 2023, 06:14:25 amI'm not matthuszagh but I believe that what you refer as "blue mouth" is simply some desoldering gun further back on the bench.

author: matthuszagh
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 06:32:39 pm
content: Yeah the blue thing is just a desoldering gun the background.The 180 degree turn in the photo is not how it’s used. That was just how it was when I took the initial photo and didn't bother retaking it. I’ve also tested it holding the fan up higher with fewer bends and the airflow isn’t much improved.I’m working on my next iteration which will only have one 90 deg turn just below the desk clamp and everything else will be straight. It will also use short sections of 6” ducts and the fan will be raised to about the exhaust height. The fan will also be much more powerful (a Vortex VTX600 inline centrifugal type that does 500 CFM at 0 static pressure and the CFM v static pressure curve seems decent). I’ll adapt 6” to 3” at the desk clamp. And the 6” duct is smooth on the inside to reduce friction (https://www.mcmaster.com/5593K21). The bottleneck will still be the 3” articulating hose on the desk, but hopefully with the beefier fan and better duct setup airflow should be significantly improved.I’ve also looked into getting a Fluke 922 with a pitot to measure airflow and static pressure, but haven’t found any used options cheap enough yet…Thanks for pointing out that I need sufficient airflow back into the room. I wasn’t thinking about this but that makes sense. I’ll probably just open a window on a different wall.

author: pope
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 09:42:03 pm
content: Quote from: matthuszagh on November 11, 2023, 06:32:39 pmSounds like a plan. Please let us know once you make ll the improvements.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 09:54:25 pm
content: OK, didn't watch the video. Now it's clear to me.190 CFM is 322 m3/hour, afterhttps://www.engineering.com/calculators/air-flow-conversion-calculator/So it looks more than plenty to me, as long as it's not a fake spec and you get rid of any bending/restriction causing static pressure increases. 500 CFM really looks overkill to me.I think the easiest thing would be to place duct mouth directly over your work. That way fumes would naturally go towards the duct, away from you, and your fan would need just reinforce that natural path. Having duct mouth so near your work wouldn't be needed. Deviating the fumes from natural path will require more energy. Cook rooms have the exhaust system placed over the fires for a good reason.Just one 12 VDC, 30 CFM centrifugal fan placed in the vertical/horizontal transition would allow for a full, good-performing, no-radius at all, 90º bend without any losses whatsoever. Something like this:https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/delta-electronics/BUB0812HN-00/21556245,but bigger than that. I just did a quick digikey search. I'm sure you could find one of these sized to your needs. I really think you shouldn't need much more than that. If you can't do it with a 30 CFM fan, then I would bet the ducting is the culprit, not the fan.I wouldn't be looking for any growing tent fan, those are purchased by stoners that usually lack any knowledge of the matter and even if they have a very high IQ, they are always high and are easily fooled. Growshop salesmen are not much better. Please note that, unlike online growshops, digikey specs give you CFM, static pressure, noise, etc, right off the bat.That trumpet-shaped black mouth looks really good to me. That shape performs much better than just a naked duct end.In case you want to go ahead with any stoner fan, please bear in mind that even one 90º bend will cause decreased performance. One bend with a good radius is deemed to be acceptable. Any tight bend is a no-no-no. Be generous when allowing for bend radiuses. The bigger the radius, the better. One foot radius isn't really that much. Putting curved fins into the bend is said to help. There is plenty of documentation on Internet, I had some links somewhere but not in english. Also you should be exhausting on a space wider than 4 inches. Window should be open enough to allow for exhaustion without restrictions.You could easily build your own rectangular duct with some thin MDF board, it can be cut with just an utility knife and glued with silicone. Easy to curve. It has the advantage to be rigid so it's easier to put it in place. You could tie it to, say, some cupboard when you are going to do some soldering. Rectangular duct works better, not in allowing for more CFM than the fan is able to do, but for less static pressure. It would be smooth, and could have fins easily done into the bends if deemed necessary.You can look for pressure difference by using some length of transparent flexible plastic tubing and some water. IIRC, you place one end of that tube into the low side of the duct and bend it into a U shape. Second end into the room. Fill it partially with water/antifreeze. Then turn the fan on. The difference in pressure will make the water to climb towards the duct and this can be measured with just a scale. This is where measuring static pressure in inches of water comes from. Using antifreeze it will be easier to see it. I never did need to go that far, however.Also I think you could place a same-size three-wire DC fan into a circular duct and measure RPM, it would at least show relative improvements. Not so easy to do with rectangular duct however.Conclusion: I would make a rectangular duct from thin MDF board, tied to the cupboard and long enough to reach just over the soldering place. I would place a 12 VDC centrifugal fan there. I would use that flexible ducting vertically, under fan intake, and straight over the soldering place. It would have that trumpet-shaped mouth at the end. It will hang to a height where the fumes not only are exhausted but never get into your lungs, and it will quite probably be high enough not to bother you while working. I would take care how the fumes go out the window. If more bends would be needed to reach the window opening, I would place another fan in each one. That way I could carry a quite small, unobtrusive ducting that would work fine. It could be put in place and removed easily and quick. I would put something in window aperture to make sure air streams don't carry the fumes again into the room.That worked for me when 3D printing ABS, and I was using an (really oversized) activated carbon filter, so I can't see why it wouldn't work for you with no filters at all.Good luck.

author: matthuszagh
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2023, 03:10:56 am
content: I assembled the second iteration (see attached photos) (and returned the parts for the previous iteration). The performance is much better and the noise isn't too bad (I have some old instrumentation that's louder). All in all I'm quite pleased with the results.I measured the air flow for the first version using a fluke 922 and got about 60 to 80 cfm. For the new version, the air flow measures about 270 cfm, though the value varies a bit depending on position in the duct tube (I measured by inserting the pitot tube into the air outlet from outside the window). Getting the tube closer to the fan lowers the value toward 200 and moving it out increases the value toward 300 (though the outlet is a bit smaller than the 6in diameter duct tube and part of this increase may be when the pitot tube side holes are in this narrower region).The fume extractor now pulls solder fumes pretty well. I assessed it by watching the smoke and using a particulate matter meter and watching for increases (the reading jumps dramatically if I use no fume extraction). If I position the extractor nozzle to the side of the iron and just a little above (not much), the extractor gets pretty much everything about 1ft away and still gets almost everything about 1.5ft away. Even beyond that it gets a good chunk though the particulate meter reading does rise a bit. At 1ft it pulls the fumes pretty much directly, whereas at about 1.5ft the fumes tend to drift toward the nozzle and then be sucked in. I can probably post a video too, if people are interested.Here are all the parts I used, in case anyone else would like to build this.- Vortex VTX-600 (http://vortexpowerfans.com/vtx-600)- McMaster-Carr Blue Blo-R-Vac Duct Hose (https://www.mcmaster.com/5666K22/)- McMaster-Carr Worm drive clamps (https://www.mcmaster.com/5415K39/)- Hakko KIT,LOC-LINE,RECTANGULAR NOZZLE,HJ3100 (https://hakkousa.com/products/fume-extraction/999-205-02-loc-line-kit-with-rectangle-nozzle.html)- 6" to 4" duct adapter (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B79OAOK)- 4" to 3" duct adapter (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002D30VGK)- Dial-A-Temp fan speed control (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0087486N4) (for variable speed control - not necessary if you're happy to run at full fan speed - also make sure the one you get is compatible with your fan)- foot stool (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BYN2K9DW) (this is a bit expensive for the role it plays, but I needed something short and wide enough and the fan is a bit heavy to sit on something like a cardboard box)I had originally wanted to use this duct hose (https://www.mcmaster.com/5593K21/) since it has a smoother interior, but it did not have a tight enough bend radius for my application. The one listed above has more of the accordian-type interior, but is much more flexible.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2023, 10:36:08 am
content: Congratulations. I still think it's overbuilt but if it works for you, then it works