Something amazing! Keysight UXR 110GHz, 256GS/s, 10-bit Scope Teardown & Exp. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 03:50:33 pm
content: In this episode Shahriar takes a look at one of the most advanced electrical test and measurement instruments ever created. The Keysight UXR-Series Real-Time Oscilloscope brings 110GHz of analog bandwidth and 256GS/s real-time sampling at 4-channels simultaneously. To make it even more impressive, the entire data-conversion architecture is in 10-bits. This implies that the instruments captures, processes, stores and displays over 10Tb/s of information.Various architectures of state-of-the art oscilloscopes from Keysight, LeCroy and Tektronix are examined and compared against the new real-time architecture of the UXR-Series oscilloscope. The teardown of the front-end 110GHz module along with the data acquisition board is presented and analyzed in detail. The instrument showcases a wide range of Keysight technologies implemented in various technologies such as InP, SiGe BiCMOS, 65nm CMOS and 28nm CMOS nodes. In combination with Hyper-Cube memory module, data can be captured at 256GS/S from all 4-channels at the same time. Several variants of the UXR-Series oscilloscope will be available from 13GHz to 110GHz bandwidths.A new calibration probe is also introduced based on the Keysight InP process capable of producing signal edges with sub-3.5ps of rise/fall times with NIST traceable calibration data. This enables users to perform NIST alignment and bandwidth calibration on site without needing to send the instrument back to Keysight.Several measurements with the scope demonstrates its extraordinarily low noise floor, jitter as well as the capability of the new probe module for instrument calibration. The 110GHz 4-channel variant of the UXR-Series oscilloscope has an MSRP of $1.3 Million US dollars.You can watch the video here: [54 Minutes]youtu.be/DXYje2B04xEMore videos at The Signal Pathwww.TheSignalPath.com

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 05:17:16 pm
content: Shahriar, congrats on getting first dibs on the new scope and mentions in Keysight's launch vid.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 07:45:25 pm
content: Quote from: Hugoneus on September 18, 2018, 03:50:33 pmWas it delivered in an armored truck with armed guards??EdP.S. When I started to view the video, Youtube threw up an ad for Tek scopes! Doh!

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 08:17:11 pm
content: Will they be giving away them at next scope month

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 08:29:55 pm
content: Damn, there goes the Bugatti....Beautiful mainboard PCB!!!

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 08:48:50 pm
content: Wow, amazing stuff. No need to mod this scope for more bandwidth

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 08:51:03 pm
content: A thing of beauty. Those front-ends are so scary!It's certainly a step change in justhowbad a bad day at the office couldreallyget!

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 08:53:25 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on September 18, 2018, 08:51:03 pmOops, I just fed 5 volts into the front end, I'll now show myself the door.

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 09:30:11 pm
content: I've been designing ICs for years, but that front end makes all the stuff I've worked on look extremely Mickey Mouse.Amazing bit of engineering

author: hscade
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 09:32:32 pm
content: True story:Last week we had a presentation held by Keysight (for the Device Current Waveform Analyzer). I talked to the sales man about the UXR and he said there is no opportunity tohave a presentation outside of the Keysight labs with this oscilloscope (except you buy one).

author: MadTux
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 09:34:16 pm
content: Hi boss, I think I just accidentally zapped channel 1The few mJ required to do so, are probably the most expensive form of energy. Something in the Peta$/kWh range

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 12:08:06 am
content: Thank you all. It was difficult to keep the scope a secret until it was released. Truly a marvel of engineering.PS: In case you don't follow me on twitter, something fun:Pooch has broken his old record! Now perching on top of the most advanced oscilloscope ever made by humans. He seems pleased with our progress.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 12:45:51 am
content: Seems Pooch is hungry for the 4-channel version!

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 01:56:14 am
content: "Let's go ahead and try and zoom in...A little bit more...Let's keep going...Until we see the sinusoid...Aaaaand, here we go...There's our sinusoid...You can see it very clearly,this is a 108 GHz sinusoid."O. M. G.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 04:21:57 am
content: Quote from: edpalmer42 on September 18, 2018, 07:45:25 pmSerious question, how does a 1.3 million dollar piece of test equipment get delivered to a customer? Would a Keysight representative be present to hand off the equipment to the customer with an official acceptance procedure after some on site functional verification?

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 04:27:29 am
content: If the last 25 years are anything to go by, 25 years from now this will be an entry level spec scope.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 04:42:55 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on September 19, 2018, 04:27:29 amHeh... That's what I was thinking....How long will it be before one of our kids (or perhaps grandchildren) will rescue one of these "old boatanchor beasts" from a dumpster?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 05:18:01 am
content: Gosh, just gosh!The only disappointment with this, apart from the fact that Santa is not bringing me one, is that, what with its demise, I won't be able to read the issue of the HP Journal that would previously have been dedicated to describing the design of this.

author: Scratch.HTF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 06:38:01 am
content: I can't wait for an oscilloscope manufacturer to reach (or exceed) a genuine 10^12 samples per second... pricing, anyone?

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 08:03:50 am
content: Two channel scopes are around since decades now, I don't understand all this hype.Quote from: edpalmer42 on September 18, 2018, 07:45:25 pm"Fox 2, green to roll for Mission UXR 2 Hugoneus"There is very safe and fast delivery sponsored by US Airforce, included in the price.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 08:56:01 am
content: As two minute papers guy says: “What a time to be alive!”This is a staggering amount of work. I’m honestly surprised that they could make the numbers add up to justify this project. I hope they sell well. It really cements Keysights place at the top of the T&M pile!Thanks for the video Sharihar. You have no peers on YouTube when it comes to high end electronics educational content.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 09:25:20 am
content: But until it measures "pluses", it's no match for the Rigol DS1054Z.

author: TiN
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 11:40:30 am
content: QuoteNot happening. 20 year old multi-GHz HP gear even today on ebay still costs far from entry levels.Same goes with any bleeding edge piece that is labor-intensive as such, be it 110 GHz scope or 8.5-digit multimeter.I have another question, regarding the input. Are there any scopes that have waveguide input port, instead of very pricey precision 1.0mm/etc connectors?Or in this target scope field, that's not important as much, since owner would connect the input cable and never disconnect? Don't see those to last many cable swaps in field, even 2.4mm is quite fragile.

author: JohnG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 12:18:47 pm
content: Quote from: TheSteve on September 18, 2018, 08:48:50 pmOr, you could get the bottom-of-the-line 13 GHz model and h**k, I mean upgrade, it to 110 GHz.John

author: Hydron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 01:59:28 pm
content: It sounds like Micron is discontinuing the HMC memory in use by this scope - I wonder how it will impact what Keysight is doing. If HMC is a key enabler for their tech and baked into their digital ASIC (which I suspect they want to use for a long time to come given what it would have cost to develop) then have they got a major issue?(seehttps://www.micron.com/support/faqs/products/hybrid-memory-cubeand the note about last-time-buy etc)

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 02:10:11 pm
content: To answer a few more questions:1) Waveguide connectors would not make good scope inputs since going down to DC is required. If Keysight were to push the bandwidth even higher, they would have to go to sub-1mm connectors such as what is used by Anritsu.2) The scope was delivered by FedEx and picked up by FedEx. Nothing unusual or out of the ordinary. The box is huge! Total weight was about 70kg (160 lb).3) I don't know the internal deals between Micron and Keysight. But I am sure that this is something they have worked out internally.4) A small error in the video I made is that the smallest hardware vertical division is 7.5mV/Div for InP input and 4mV/Div for SiGe input. But of course the noise measurements are correct and valid.

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 02:41:00 pm
content: Quote from: Hydron on September 19, 2018, 01:59:28 pmThat's a shame. It says they now have a HBM development program, but HMC looks a lot easier to integrate.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 03:06:30 pm
content: A key component discontinued in a brand new million-dollar equipment...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 03:11:59 pm
content: Quote from: Hydron on September 19, 2018, 01:59:28 pmThey can probably stockpile some. It's not like they'll need millions of chips.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 03:12:47 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on September 19, 2018, 03:06:30 pmI'm sure they worked closely with Micron on the memory subsystem design. They will have either already secured a lifetime-buy of the necessary components or will have an upgrade path in the works, I would expect.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 03:14:53 pm
content: Quote from: Hugoneus on September 19, 2018, 02:10:11 pm

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 03:20:35 pm
content: The question should be, "How much is theinsuranceon shipping a $1.3 million item via FedEx?"

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 04:29:39 pm
content: 80% of the price must be R&D, Marketing, commissions, Fixed keysight costs, etc. etc. etc.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 05:17:46 pm
content: Quote from: hscade on September 18, 2018, 09:32:32 pm@hscade, I know that there will be demo scopes available, but as of right now (today) there aren't. It shouldn't be hard to get a demo, especially for one of the lower bandwidths once those are shipping.

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 07:53:46 pm
content: I see the software has had a phase noise application added. Will this work with the S series or is it just for the UXR? Can't see anything on the web site about it yet.Nice to see SDA and UDF are now included as standard.I see the UXR still has a 1024x768 res display thoughYou quickly run out of real estate with all the different types of analysis you can do.

author: maxwell3e10
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2018, 05:09:16 am
content: 100 GHz - $1M10 GHz - $100k1 GHz - $10k100 MHz -$1k10 MHz -$100 (hand-held scope)1 MHz -$10 (chip level)1 cent per 1 kHz of bandwidth across 6 decades.

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2018, 06:27:52 am
content: Quote from: Hugoneus on September 19, 2018, 02:10:11 pmIt is at times like this that I wonder if he/she was aware that that box they were dropping off was probably worth more than they (or most other people, really) will ever see in their life. Reminds me of that time I was moving VNA extenders, and someone casually told me "If you drop that, it is pretty much the same as driving a brand new Porsche into a concrete wall"Regarding the waveguide-part: I do find it hard to imagine we will see scopes with higher bandwidth than 110 GHz with 'simple' front-panel connectors. The loss of the cable will just be too much for longer runs. Perhaps a system similar to the millimeter-wave VNA modules will be the future, where the first bit of processing (attenuation, amplifier, and either S&H or mixers) happens in a 'smaller' external box right at the DUT, and a number of parallel channels will then connect that external box the scope, where the main A/D and DSP takes place. Of course, timing will be a mess in that case, but I am sure something can be engineered for that (some kind of sync system where the module will send a pulse over each channel to deskew? ).

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2018, 06:54:14 am
content: Quote from: TK on September 19, 2018, 04:29:39 pmThen again, this kind of research can't be cheap and there's not exactly a huge market for 110 GHz oscilloscopes.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2018, 07:15:13 am
content: Quote from: Hugoneus on September 19, 2018, 02:10:11 pmDo scopes like this actually need to go down to DC?

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2018, 10:18:24 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 20, 2018, 07:15:13 amOne of the main uses of these scopes would be looking at digital signals, which depending on the coding might not have a strict DC component, but they will still go down to very low frequencies (in wave-guide terms). A waveguide around 110 GHz would be something like WR10, which only covers from 75-110 GHz. Until we find a way to get wider band waveguides that work well in production (eg, dielectric waveguides), we will have to stick to coax.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2018, 11:43:00 am
content: Quote from: srce on September 19, 2018, 07:53:46 pmWhen you use Windows on a touchscreen its often a good thing to have pretty low resolution so you can hit the small buttons.If you need more room you can always connect an additional DVI monitor and run it at any resolution you want (Tho maybe not 4K 60fps since the embeded PCs tend to be a bit old so it might not support the latest DVI spec). So far i have not seen multi-window support in the infinitum software, but it will run on any resolution you want. The VSA software might have some multiwindow support tho (The thing used for that QAM analysts in the video)

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2018, 11:50:43 am
content: Quote from: Berni on September 20, 2018, 11:43:00 amWhat would screen resolution have to do with being able to hit buttons?If you doubled both the H and V resolution of your screen, for example, you would also double the H and V size of your buttons, so they would still be the same size, they would just have 4x as many pixels in them.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2018, 12:08:34 pm
content: Quote from: drussell on September 20, 2018, 11:50:43 amOn these scopes you don't always just use the scope software in fullscreen and nothing else. Sometimes you also run just regular non touchscreen designed windows programs on it and the UI scaling feature in Win 7 are not always perfect.For example when doing modulation analysis you tend to run this regular oldschool windows looking app on the scope:https://www.keysight.com/zz/en/software/application-sw/89600-vsa-software.htmlEDIT: Tho maybe they started going to Windows 10 now. The UI scaling is known to be much improved there.

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2018, 02:14:39 pm
content: My S series has a Display Port out, so you can attach to a monitor at 2560x1440. And yes, the Infiniium s/w has multiple window support, so you can have different windows on each display. The trouble with an external monitor, is that it's not quite in the position you want it and there's no touch screen support.Yep, you do run other s/w on it, which is why a higher res is useful, so you can see multiple things at the same time.They do now ship with Win10. But with regards to scaling, even Full HD, which wouldn't need scaling, would be a welcome improvement on 1024x768.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2018, 10:11:43 pm
content: Quote from: Circlotron on September 19, 2018, 04:27:29 amEntry level oscilloscopes have not changed much in bandwidth having gone from perhaps 50 to 100 MHz. 40 years ago the rough equivalent to this Keysight would have been some variation of a 14 GHz sampling oscilloscope which is still way beyond entry level and even most high end models.Quote from: Hydron on September 19, 2018, 01:59:28 pmThey could just do a lifetime buy. The HMC memory cost is not significant compared to the rest.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 12:31:47 am
content: 480v 3-phase?All joking aside, very impressive machine.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 01:11:38 am
content: Quote from: Berni on September 20, 2018, 12:08:34 pmOMG, how is this even a thing. It's Keysight's own source code. It they want a higher resolution, even if they were using Windows95 for their OS, in their scope code, they would change the font and button size and ignore Window's scaling BS, or, they have already programmed their software correctly so that even WindowsXP would scale their on screen elements correctly. Why are we questioning this trivial thing on a 1.6m$ scope?They actually know what monitor size and res is mounted in the scopes... It's not like a separate purchased program on a random consumer home computer with a random setup.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 01:59:38 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on September 21, 2018, 01:11:38 amWhile I doubt it is a problem here, often the screen resolution of the graticule is made to be a fixed integer ratio of the digitizer resolution to prevent aliasing or the extra processing necessary to correct aliasing. So for instance 200 counts from 8-bits might translate into 8 vertical divisions of exactly 25 pixels each and changing screen resolutions would produce a more smeared display. Preserving this would require specific programming for different screen resolutions.

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 02:12:54 am
content: Hello,is in the datasheet © Keysight Technologies, 2018, Published in USA, September 19, 2018, 5992-3132EN an error?Page 42 and page 43:"Offset rangeVertical sensitivity1 mV/div to 55 mV/div56 mV/div to 128 mV/div129 mV/div to 278 mV/div279 mV/div to 5000 mV/div"??On page 47: "Max time between triggers> 100,000 years"If i start to save money than I can perhaps buy an UXR1104A in 100000 yearsIs the mean time to failure greater than 100000 years?Best regardsegonotto

author: mmagin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 04:00:22 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on September 21, 2018, 12:31:47 amAccording to the specs, It looks like the 2 channel version he looked at "only" requires 1370 VA and can run off 120V. The 4 channel version only works off 200-240VIt blows my mind the extent to which the accuracy of something like this relies on both good RF design and some very clever DSP. The whole time-interleaved sampling seems like it must rely heavily on the (DSP) software to calibrate out the subtle differences in all those signal paths.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 05:30:25 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on September 21, 2018, 01:11:38 amYes but people also use software not made by Keysight on these scopes, there is built in integration with MATLAB and similar tools. Some might use things like LabView or some other programing environment to run automated tests that control other more "dumb" gear like switches or synthesizers. Also the scopes infiniium software can also be installed on a normal PC to use it for opening and analyzing files exported from the scope.Also even tho the scope might look huge it is still the same 15 inch LCD that all the other Keysights PC based scopes like the 9000, 90000, S-series etc. When sitting from it at a distance that PC monitors tend to be used its not all that big of a screen.But i do agree that it could have a at least a little bit more resolution. When sitting from these at a normal distance you can see the pixels when you look closely, something like 1600x1200 would be welcome to see but there is no point going above Full HD resolutions. My Agilent MSO6000 scope from 15 years ago is doing 1024x768 on a 6.3 inch display and it looks lovely crisp (They don't even bother to anti-alias the fonts because you couldn't see it anyway)

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 05:35:20 am
content: Quote from: mmagin on September 21, 2018, 04:00:22 amCommon power outlets in the US are 1800 watts under the best conditions and more typically limited to about 1200 watts. (1) Even if they had made a version which could run on a 120 volt 20 amp outlet, they are not any more common than a 240 volt outlet.(1) The biggest "cheap" UPSes are not much larger than 1200 watts even with input power factor correction.QuoteModern integrated pipelined ADCs commonly do self calibration. DSOs going back decades which use interleaved converters also commonly do self calibration. But the difference is that 4-way interleaving was the typical maximum.

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 09:27:35 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on September 21, 2018, 01:59:38 amIt looks fine whatever res you run it at - as mentioned, you can move windows on to a different monitor. Also, the same s/w can be run standalone on a regular Windows PC for offline analysis.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 10:01:24 am
content: What was the scope used in the development phase of this one? (chicken-egg...)

author: mmagin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 03:16:28 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on September 21, 2018, 10:01:24 amThe really interesting question: how do they calibrate that calibration probe.They have to characterize the imperfections in it's output to a significantly better accuracy than this scope can measure. Unless there's something new under the sun in calibration methodology?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 03:46:41 pm
content: Quote from: Dubbie on September 19, 2018, 08:56:01 amIt may very well be a loss leader. No amount of advertising can buy you the reputation this buys the company. That would be a bit like what Volkswagen was doing with the Bugatti Veyron. Losing a few million on each car is much cheaper than starting a racing team. I understand the Chiron is now making money, mostly due to a lot of knowledge and infrastructure already being present. I suspect Keysight's situation may be similar.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 04:06:05 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 21, 2018, 03:46:41 pmI'm sure that tripling the purchase price for the Chiron didn't hurt, either.(or whatever the price hike was - a million $ extra per car will sure help recover some R&D)

author: markietas
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 04:13:03 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on September 21, 2018, 05:35:20 amPretty much every commercial building and most newer homes in the US use 20a 120v circuits for all of their outlets. Though they often are not nema 5-20r, but 5-15r witch doesn't have the sideways blade but is still rated to pass 20a of current.Although anyone who can afford this scope can afford to get a dedicated outlet installed anyways.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 04:17:19 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 21, 2018, 04:06:05 pmI do think that increasing the price on the Chiron helps covering the costs and making them profitable. Although even at that price they'd have lost millions on each Veyron. It's reported each one ended up costing about 8 or 9 million.I'm curious Keysight is doing something similar, though I suspect they might want to keep that to themselves.

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 07:20:13 pm
content: A few other notes:The scope has to go down to DC. This is often very important in optical applications.The ADCs which have been fine tuned for this scope will be useful for many many years.The fact that the same mainframe can be upgraded from 13GHz to 110GHz is very important for long term cost and return on investment.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 11:07:49 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 21, 2018, 03:46:41 pmI doubt that Keysight is losing money on each of these oscilloscopes. Face it, the customers who need this productreallyneed it, and they're very aware of what it costs to build something like this. They're happy that they can even buy this oscilloscope.Remember, the cost to build this product isn't $1.3 million. I'd be surprised if it cost more than $500k. And remember this is just one product in a range, and a lot of the R&D for was used for that range.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2018, 09:02:32 am
content: Yep a lot of the tech is reused from the S series like the ADC, Aquisition ASIC, PCIe PC backhaul, Windows softwre etc...They proabably sell a lot of those S series, so investment return is easy. The new tech in this is the front end and samplers along with the digital magic to make it woek together. Even that must have cost a fortune to develop

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2018, 11:36:56 am
content: Quote from: Berni on September 22, 2018, 09:02:32 amIsn't it faster? 64GSa/s vs 40GS/a?

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2018, 11:47:38 am
content: Quote from: srce on September 22, 2018, 11:36:56 amIt isn't 100% the same, it has been updated a bit - perhaps the process has been further fine-tunes allowing for better performance/faster transistors. At least, that is what I have been told.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 12:03:42 am
content: Quote from: mmagin on September 21, 2018, 03:16:28 pmKeysight sends the pulse generator to NIST which calibrates it using anelectro-optic sampling systemwhich is considerably faster than a mere 110 GHz. Or maybe Keysight has their own electro-optic sampling system.Older (and slower) sampling oscilloscopes can actually calibrate themselves by measuring their own sampling strobe kickout so no external absolute reference is required but this fails above 10s of GHz where sampling gates become weird.

author: mmagin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 03:45:24 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on September 23, 2018, 12:03:42 amHuh, wow, thanks for the link.

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2018, 03:41:35 am
content: Quote from: mmagin on September 23, 2018, 03:45:24 amAlso note that for characterizing things like ENOB, all you need is a clean synthesizer.

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 06:19:03 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on September 19, 2018, 04:27:29 amYeh probably being made by Rigol

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 06:56:16 am
content: Don't think the sort of progress we seen recently can keep up for long. Eventually things get harder and harder to make.A similar thing can be seen with PC CPUs. Things seamed pretty steady until we get past the first Pentium. At that point CPU frequencies started really going up and they kept iterating and improving on the process to squeeze more and more speed out of it. Consumer chips quickly broke the 1GHz mark and kept going while the power consumption of these new fast CPUs skyrocketed to 100W and beyond. They improved only a little bit MIPS per MHz but kept rapidly getting faster just cause they could crank the clock speed higher and higher. But then we hit the 3GHz mark and things suddenly slowed down a lot. At that point multicore started becoming a consumer thing because it was now easier to add a extra core than to make it faster.Go forwards to today we now have consumer chips that get past 4,5 GHz but that's about it. They did improve the MIPS per MHz quite a bit as that was the new easiest way forward, but even that route slowing down lately. So again they are resorting to putting even more cores into CPUs. Similar thing is happening with how there FLOPS performance is pushed forward by simply adding more parallel computational units with the new AVX512 instructions.So once a way to drastically improve performance is found it generally does not last forever, at some point the idea becomes unpractical and so you need to find a new trick to keep going.That being said i am curious about what scopes we will get 25 years from now. Do we get a cheap under 1000 USD Rigol with 1GHz of bandwidth and a 12bit ADC?

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 07:00:35 am
content: Quote from: Berni on September 26, 2018, 06:56:16 amI do think that is likely. From what I have seen, there has been a massive push towards high speed ADCs, with the need for higher bandwidths and newer applications such as SDR. Techniques for low-power, wide-band and low-cost amplifiers will also improve, giving us lower cost at those points too.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 01:37:52 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on September 26, 2018, 06:56:16 amEasily. Probably for $500.The price for low-volume goods like these is mostly (R&D cost / projected sales volume)+markup.In 25 years the "DSO ASIC" and the "analog input ASIC" will be done and dusted, R&D will be close to zero.Edit: Having said that, the price of the probes fro 1GHz might be more than the 'scope. 250Mhz might be the entry level with a price jump above that for active probes.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 04:34:55 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on September 26, 2018, 06:56:16 amI doubt it because there is more to increasing resolution past 8 bits than the ADC. Most 12 bit DSOs do not have 12 bit performance in their analog signal conditioning. Try measuring their linearity across their bandwidth and their 12 bit settling time.This is reflected in the ENOB (effective number of bits) specification given at different frequencies in the oscilloscope's specifications. If this specification is not given in detail, then you can know that the DSO performs poorly in this regard.Now *sampling* oscilloscopes hit 10 and 12 bit performance or even better decades ago but they have no analog signal conditioning.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 05:12:08 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on September 26, 2018, 04:34:55 pmThat can all be calibrated out in a DSP.

author: Scratch.HTF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 12:51:19 am
content: I've read that power companies in North America are required to provide split phase 240V.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 03:35:35 am
content: Quote from: Scratch.HTF on October 02, 2018, 12:51:19 amThat’s what is brought from the utility pole to a residence, two 120 V hots 180º apart and a neutral. The panel will have a two-pole main breaker feeding the two phases in the panel. Both 120 V and 240 V circuits can be taken from the panel.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 05:27:28 am
content: Yeah this sort of "2 phase" power is common in American residential buildings. It does give the benefit of reducing neutral return current since the 110V loads on each phase balance out somewhat. And it makes it easy to get 220V for the heavy loads like aircon and stoves.Here in Europe its quite common for a residential building to have 3 phase and then simply distribute all the loads over the phases. Heavy loads such as ovens tend to have 3 phase input, but most loads not since even just a regular outlet can provide 3kW. Areas like mine with a lot of farms also find 3 phase useful as 3 phase motors are very common for driving various machinery (Some of the motors are really big beasts too)

author: maxwell3e10
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 07:25:04 am
content: Can someone get this oscilloscope and measure the power line phase shifts?

author: mastaplanna
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 17, 2018, 05:23:50 pm
content: Ok, so I watch this sweet video, and I'm new to electronics, but getting the feel for it...the way I understand it, Platinum is the best conductor of electricity, if I'm correct the acquisition board looks to be milled from gold, why wouldn't they use platinum? Whats the difference if it adds another 200K in cost? I mean if I'm dropping 1.3 mil, I'll come up with another 200K or so for it...I'm just sayin

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2018, 05:54:09 am
content: That is NOT a solid block of gold, its just a thin layer of gold that was electrochemicaly plated on. Such a big chunk of gold would cost a fortune and there is no point in it being solid. Nor is gold the best conductor of electricity. The most conductive metal is silver flowed really closely by copper(hence why we use copper for wires). Gold is the 3rd most conductive element (About 50% worse then copper) and is just slightly more conductive than aluminum.Aluminum is easily machined into shape, is cheap and light so it ends up the material of choice for solid shielding blocks. While on a circuit board copper is the metal of choice because of its excellent conductivity and the ability to be easily soldered.So why is it gold then? One reason, oxidation resistance.Gold unlike most other metals really really does not want to oxidize even in very aggressive conditions. If you plate a thin layer of gold onto a metal object means you use very little of the expensive gold while it makes the metal object immune to oxidation. This is very helpful in anything that has to make a good electrical contact (oxides are not electrical conductive). Additionally gold loves being soldered as much as copper does so gold plated parts solder really well (Even more so due to no oxides). The oxidation resistance also makes gold easy to cold weld, just smoosh two objects of gold together hard enough under the right conditions and they spontanusly stick together without any heat required(This is why chip bond wires are gold)So why not platinum? It has even better oxidation resistance and can also be soldered to copper. Well.. the electrical resistance of platinum is 6 times higher than copper and it costs a lot more than gold. So you would be paying a lot more for a coating that's just as good as gold or possibly even worse than gold.

author: mastaplanna
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 03:36:54 am
content: I don't disagree it could or is gold plating only...but here's my thing...an ounce of gold is $1200...that gold module would only cost, at most 20K...that thing wouldn't be more than 15-20 ounces and thats being generous...Platinum is only $860 an ounce...it seems that in a $1.3 million machine, this is the one to try it on...I still don't see a good argument against it...I'd build a machine out of each metal and see how it performs, how do you know unless you do?When Sharier picked it up, how much did it weigh?And, we use copper because its cheap

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 06:11:04 am
content: Yes exactly we use copper because its cheap while being almost as good as silver. The extra cost of silver is not worth the small performance advantage.Just because it is expensive does not mean it is good. To make a good shielding box all you need is something that is highly electrically conductive, but since you need to somehow get your electronics in there means you have to have a lid on your box, so you want to have no oxides between the lid and the box so that you maintain good electrical conductivity all the way around the lid. Gold is perfect for keeping oxides away and its convenient to be able to solder your electronics on to it. Additionally high speed electronics generate heat so you likely also want the box to be thermally conductive to be able to easily get the heat out. The most thermally conductive metal is also silver so the ideal box would be a solid silver box with gold plating. But again copper is almost the same performance so might as well use the cheaper copper.It is possible the box is made out of solid copper inside as i have seen it used here or there in RF boxes.Oh and the scope does not cost anywhere near 1.3 Milion USD to produce. It probably costs them somewhere in the range of $50 000 to produce a unit. The rest of the cost is tooling (ASIC masks, injection molding, assembly setup, test systems) and an even larger part is R&D cost. Many milions of dollars went into paying a large team highly skilled engineers and some more milions went into building prototypes. Since they are sure as heck not going to sell 10 000 of these scopes means they have to sell for a high price to pay back the development process. Also they need to turn a profit in the end, they are a company after all.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 06:37:20 am
content: Quote from: mastaplanna on October 26, 2018, 03:36:54 amAnd silver is only $15 an ounce.Gold-plated silver would be the way to go.

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 08:07:28 am
content: Quote from: Berni on October 26, 2018, 06:11:04 amAll of those things are what it costs to produce this scope. There is a difference in 'BOM cost' and 'cost produce a device'. The first is just components, the latter includes every cost you made to get it to market. (how exactly you distribute fixed/one-time costs is part of what makes good financial and bookkeeping staff so valuable)Quote from: mastaplanna on October 26, 2018, 03:36:54 amCopper is also stronger and iirc behaves better when alloyed (in terms of conductivity). Copper is also a better conductor. Coating things with gold has nothing to do with electrical performance and everything to do with chemical - gold does not form an oxide, it does not tarnish, ... You might find thick layers of gold though because you can't just coat copper with gold, gold with diffuse into copper. You instead need to first plate it with nickel or nickel and paladium (ENIG or ENEPIG). Using thicker layers ensures you really use the conductivity of gold.

author: mastaplanna
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 06:40:25 pm
content: Anyone have one of these yet?

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 08:43:42 pm
content: Quote from: mastaplanna on October 26, 2018, 06:40:25 pmI do!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 08:49:30 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on October 26, 2018, 08:43:42 pmDon't put it on the BBQ!

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 08:54:29 pm
content: Haha, no. Those days are over, I think. Even with a scope that was already broken, I took so much flack for that video

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 09:15:58 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on October 26, 2018, 08:54:29 pmI could have fixed it...

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 09:25:09 pm
content: Yeah, if Keysight would like to pass out broken scopes or other test equipment, we're all for it. I'll PM Daniel my address.