The right choice of digital oscilloscope - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Arnen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 07:31:25 pm
content: Hey.I would like to ask for the correct selection of the digital oscilloscope. As a student, I was offered an offer from one German company to the oscilloscope Siglent 1202X-E (200 MHz, 2channel) at a price of 350 euros including VAT and transport.Do you think it's a good choice for the price? Is this the best for the money? Or is it possible to obtain the same/lower price offer from other companies on a better oscilloscope? I would like to use it for my home DIY projects. Which companies provide lower prices for students?Thank you for your help.

author: dcbrown73
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 07:36:12 pm
content: Get mark, get set, GO!EDIT: Excuse me Arnen. My comment isn't directed at you. It's at what's coming!

author: Mortymore
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 08:09:07 pm
content: With VAT and shipping included, seems a good price, and I believe a good scope option also.https://www.siglent.eu/sds1202x-e.htmlEDIT: Just in case I might be misunderstood, the link provided is just for comparison, and to let you know that the €350 are a good price compared to regular market price, as far as I know.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 08:28:57 pm
content: Quote from: Mortymore on September 17, 2019, 08:09:07 pmReseller like me ! ^^^Hamburg site:https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds1000x-e-series-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes/Welcome ArnenFine choice as a starter DSO and also my best seller.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 08:31:10 pm
content: That is highly dependent on the type of development/use you are giving your oscilloscope.Many threads around here discuss this similar scenario. I would definitely search for the part number of the oscilloscope (SDS1202X-E). You will find that many opinions about this particular model will converge to it being mainly suitable for analog circuit debugging AND limited digital serial debugging due to the presence of two channels. You will also see other suggestions for four channel oscilloscopes as being more suitable for digital serial debugging while having twice the analog circuit debugging capabilities when compared to the two channel version. You will spin your head around many conversations to land on the fact that the perfect oscilloscope does not exist, your usage will be the most decisive factor in your search and how small is the difference between a two and a four channel oscilloscope, especially when compared to the lifetime of the product.Other factors are: your first oscilloscope is not the last; oscilloscopes don't lose too much value and can be resold; the more you use your current oscilloscope, the more you will find its limitations and (perhaps) see the need to get something more suitable.Other keywords: DS1054Z, SDS1104X-E, Rigol, Siglent, FFT,

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 10:19:44 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 17, 2019, 08:31:10 pmBulls eye! Well said, Rafael.

author: uargo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 10:25:14 pm
content: great oscilloscope, incredible price

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 06:14:42 am
content: Quote from: Arnen on September 17, 2019, 07:31:25 pmIt's a very cheap price for that model.Quote from: Arnen on September 17, 2019, 07:31:25 pmHow do you define "better"?We don't know what you intend to use it for. You don't say what you're studying.The big problem with that model is that it's only two channels. If you're working with anything digital then you should really get four channels.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 06:54:07 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 17, 2019, 08:31:10 pmWhy "FFT"?And why not GW-Instek 1054B?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 01:54:04 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 18, 2019, 06:54:07 amFFT: thoroughly mentioned as the main differentiator between the two most popular four channel contenders. Also, an intensive and useful analysis tool for users in analog and educational markets.GW-Instek 1054B: usually the two other search terms are followed by the mention of this one as well. Not being present in many markets and lacking protocol decoders (apart from an unsupported hack), tends to lag in comparison to the other two. A decent scope nonetheless.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 06:23:09 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 18, 2019, 01:54:04 pmYea, but a lot of people never need/use it. eg. Me.Quote from: rsjsouza on September 18, 2019, 01:54:04 pmIs there such a thing as a "supported hack"?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 07:14:03 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 18, 2019, 06:23:09 pmWhat I meant was: when the manufacturer explicitly offers the upgrade as a paid option, there is reason to believe they tested/validated the functionality with the HW platform. In the particular case of GDS-1000B series from GW Instek, they don't offer this at all. This could configure itself as a completely untested hack, thus the risk is higher of damaging and/or having a lesser product if the feature is important to you.All in all, the search terms are completely arbitrary but tied to the gist of discussions around according to my experience.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 07:55:45 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 18, 2019, 07:14:03 pmThat is a bit of an overstatement. The decoding in the GDS-1000B series is a pure software feature. GW Instek basically uses the same firmware on a broad range of oscilloscopes. Depending on the model some features are enabled / disabled.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 12:21:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 18, 2019, 07:55:45 pmThe first sales brochures for the GDS-1000B mentioned serial decoding (see line 9 on page 2 ofthis) so I'm guessing it was marketing that pulled this feature, not engineering.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 12:44:30 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 18, 2019, 06:23:09 pmYou should. It is very useful to find signals that you're not able to see just by looking at the waveform. That is why RF people's primary tool is spectrum analyser not oscilloscope. 1% harmonic distortion is not visible on a sine-wave on a scope, but clearly visible in FFT...Same goes with looking at noise on power bus etc etc... Figuring out whether interference is random noise or some periodic signal being injected from somewhere goes a long way in finding a problem.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 04:07:23 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 19, 2019, 12:21:04 pmWe can only speculate, but I guess this was a leftover for an untested feature.In embedded, anything can happen and rarely something is a "pure software feature". I have seen threads go haywire and cause a race condition that caused "at least" a freeze, requiring a system restart. I am pretty sure you all have seen this as well.All in all, this is not to discount the GDS as an option, but I personally find it too risky to advertise it as a valid feature for a new user or a cash strapped one.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 05:20:45 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 19, 2019, 04:07:23 pmI agree. GDS 1000B is clearly superior scope to Rigol DS1000Z, but it is not compared to SDS1104X-E. And Siglent comes with everything unlocked (100MHz, all decodes and triggers, and has FRA capability) out of the box. For an average person that is reason enough. You just buy it and it simply works and all fully legal.. That means something too.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 05:25:25 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 19, 2019, 04:07:23 pmNo. There is one firmware for an entire range of scopes. It is not an untested feature. It was probably left out in order not to eat too much away from the more expensive models with a bigger display OR make the device more simple for the educational market. I'm 100% sure decoding works just fine on the GDS-1054B.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 05:43:09 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 19, 2019, 05:25:25 pmThe fact there is one firmware for an entire range of different platforms tells nothing new about reliability in running on the GDS1000 platform. Unless you work at Instek or is privy to internal information regarding versions and tests done on the GDS1000, you can't tell with 100% certainty. Oh well... As I said before, we can only speculate.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 06:32:01 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on September 19, 2019, 05:20:45 pmI would dispute that final part. The user interface of the GDS 1000B is clearly much faster/nicer to use than the Siglent. Separate channel controls, proper push-button for menu selections, much smoother UI response overall.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 06:32:50 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 19, 2019, 05:43:09 pmYou know there's people out there that use it on a daily basis, right?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 07:13:40 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 19, 2019, 06:32:01 pmNo, that is just your subjective opinion. I use and tried different scopes with both individual controls per channel and common single one and couldn't care less. Once you learn the movements, they become automatic.. I don't even miss buttons much on Pico that has no buttons at all.. But that's me, I generally simply learn how is something used instead of expecting for everything to be made how ( I think) "it should be"..I understand you see things differently.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 07:31:19 pm
content: 2 weeks ago Fungus was pushing the 54Z that also has has a multiplexed vertical control like the X-E Siglents, last week it was Keysight, this week GW Instek so what will it be next week ? ?

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 07:32:29 pm
content: Maybe he likes to play devils advocate so people get different opinions. Personally I think people get too hung up on interface for new users. No matter what they'll have to learn it so might as well recommend what's more and more common(shared controls). If the best seemingly best choice for the user has independent controls then that's fine too.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 08:15:13 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 19, 2019, 05:43:09 pmAnd all these scopes run on the same hardware platform too.Do your homework before making assumptions. You are trying to grasp straws which aren't there.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 09:27:38 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 19, 2019, 08:15:13 pmGDS1000, GDS2000 and GDS3000 run on the same hardware? Wow... Talk about reuse!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 10:00:09 pm
content: Not quite. As far as I know the GDS1000B, GDS2000E, MDO2000E and MSO2000E series run on the same hardware platform (Xilinx Zync). They also share the same casing.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 10:22:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 19, 2019, 10:00:09 pmBut 1000B has only one 1GS/s A/D so at least Zynq bitstream can't be same. So I understand what your'e saying and if they keep on doing this way, it might keep on working. But it is not tested and weird side-effects might creep up in the code, and if they do, they won't be fixing it, if it only doesn't work a 1000B. I believe that is what Rjsouza wants to say and I agree.I agree that all 2000E are IDENTICAL, and they will always work. But 1000B works only by side-effect at this point. And quite well so far.But no guarantees..

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 10:58:26 pm
content: Quote from: Arnen on September 17, 2019, 07:31:25 pmYes, it's a very good price scope for the price. I love mine and paid a lot more.Quote from: Arnen on September 17, 2019, 07:31:25 pmProbably. I can't think of anything that costs less that's better. I'm not sure what the discussion above about more expensive oscilloscopes is all about since you didn't ask about that.Quote from: Arnen on September 17, 2019, 07:31:25 pmNot regularly. Maybe a used one or hacking a 50MHz model into something higher, but even then I think the hackable models you would want to consider cost more. I don't think there is any 'scope cheaper than the 1202x-e that's better out of the box.Quote from: Arnen on September 17, 2019, 07:31:25 pmSorry, I don't know the answer to that one.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 11:16:58 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on September 19, 2019, 10:22:04 pmI don't agree. Just like the measurements, FFT, etc, etc decoding is a software function which is performed over the waveform data. If decoding doesn't work on the GDS1000B then none of the other features which use the waveform data will work. It is simple as that. To simplify: decoding is just a different kind of math waveform.

author: JxR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 01:00:27 am
content: Quote from: Arnen on September 17, 2019, 07:31:25 pmTektronix/Keithley give 30% discount to students, but it's handled on a case by case basis through their resellers. Although there is really nothing compelling on the low end from Tek for a scope imho.Rhode & Schwartz gives 25% off to universities, but only 10% off to students.Those are the only manufacturers I know for sure that offer discounts to students across their product line. Tequipment.net (US Reseller) offers a student discount. Digilent also has a student discount and make a decent USB based scope. Newark also used to provide a small student discount (5-10%). I don't know of any Siglent resellers that provide a student discount. Your best bet is to probably try and find a local reseller in the UK that offers such a discount.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 03:35:23 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 19, 2019, 07:31:19 pmIt will be whatever suits the person who's asking the question.A newbie who's never owned an oscilloscope and has an "under $400" budget: Rigol DS1054Z(or maybe GW-Instek if they can get one at a good price where they live)Somebody whospecifically asks fora "Fluke experience", or wants a noticeable step up from the basic, entry level scopes? The Keysight.What about you? What will you be pushing...?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 03:42:33 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on September 19, 2019, 10:22:04 pmIt's software that works on a datastream coming out of a chip. If they break the decoding then they'll most likely also break the FFT, the on-screen meaurements, the math functions.... anything else that processes that datastream.Quote from: nctnico on September 19, 2019, 11:16:58 pmExactly.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 07:45:27 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 20, 2019, 03:35:23 amFrom just 4 series of Siglent DSO's, the model that suits a buyers needs and budget best, those will be X or X-E models and of many configurations. Of course it includes SDS5104X that Dave reckoned was best value for the $ in its class.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 03:02:53 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 20, 2019, 07:45:27 amIt's weird that I'm the one being called out and accused of something...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 08:58:46 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 20, 2019, 03:02:53 pmI'm impressed that you've purchased all those scopes and can give real use experience advice for all of them.Never seen any screenshots ..............

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 09:00:33 pm
content: R&S gave me a 30% discount as a student (through a reseller).

author: JxR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 09:37:15 pm
content: Quote from: KaneTW on September 20, 2019, 09:00:33 pmNice. I wonder if they are more generous with students in Germany, or you just got lucky with the reseller? I tried twice to get the 25% discount and was denied both times. Although R&S (Rich) was generous enough to offer to upgrade one of my pieces of equipment recently for free, so not really complaining. The discounts do influence my purchases though...

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 08:49:53 am
content: Hi ArnenAs dcbrown73 predicted, here's another my-brand-of-scope-is-better-than-yours fustercluck but here's my 2 pence worth.I own a RigolDS1054Zthat can simply be turned into a DS1104Z with all options enabled (just Google 'Riglol'). Unless you're designing satellites and assuming that your eyesight is OK, you will probably be just fine with this scope. 4 channels are useful for decoding e.g. SPI where you need the CS as a trigger to isolate traffic to the device you're interested in.Don't know what they cost in Blighty buddy but I got mine here in the more-guns-than-people USA for $300 as an open box item from Tequipment.netFWIW, I own other scopes including a 1GHz 4 channel arm+leg beast but theDS1054Zfulfills 99.9% of my needs.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 07:00:21 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 20, 2019, 08:58:46 pmI have access to quite a few 'scopes at the University so sometimes I get to play with them.It's pretty clear which 'scope is starring in Dave's videos lately, he's even posted in the forums saying,"... the Keysight, they got practically everything on that right and is my preferred daily driver, and most people seem to agree.".A Keysight costs $160 more than your Siglent, sure, but if you're a professional who uses a 'scope for paid work or are already going for a Siglent over a Rigol then you're demanding "the next level" so why compromise with a half-step when a full step up the ladder is only 30% more?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 09:21:35 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 21, 2019, 07:00:21 pmAh OK, not use only play.QuoteWho wouldn't prefer to use a 2GSa/a DSO over an entry level model ?And when Dave needs additional memory depth over what the KS has to offer he grabs whatever else he has close to hand.The KS is hamstrung with very limited memory depth and DSO's at just half the price offer many times more.QuoteMy Siglent ? WTF are you on about ?State a model FFS and let's compare features.QuoteAgain, what compromise is there when one scope is better featured than another ?Buyers select on the feature set, specs required and the bang for buck.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 09:55:57 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 21, 2019, 07:00:21 pmWhich Keysight is 160 USD more than which Siglent?We have to compare on equal terms.Also, Rigol or Siglent type of software hacks are not the same as opening, and potentially damage, scope and solder stuff in it. Warranty is definitely gone. Nor Siglent nor Rigol ever make problems if you send in "enhanced scope". They might change a motherboard and erase hacked licenses, but will not refuse warranty. You simply reapply licenses.Soldering inside is nor risk free nor equally easy. Siglent scopes are coming basically unlocked, so no need for hacking at all.DSOX1204A+D1200BW2A+D1200AUTA+D1200EMBA is 2000USD + tax. There is no hack for the 4ch one.DSOX1102A + 100MHZ UPGRADE+ DSOX1AUTO+DSOX1EMB is 1200USD + tax. Professionals won't hack the scope. You get 2+0,5 Ch scope.And as much as I like Dave, he is very quick to dismiss things as not good if they are different to what is he used to.Many people are, many are not. He uses MSOX3054 as daily drive for years, and is very used to and familiar to that U/I.I don't find my MSOX3000T user interface especially logical. I had to spend many hours before I memorized what is where.So I did with Rigol, and Picoscope, and Tek and LeCroy...I personally find LeCroy most logical...Go figure.So I take " they are doing it RIGHT" with a grain of salt, and read it " they are doing it how I'm used to so it feels familiar"

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 10:17:28 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on September 21, 2019, 09:55:57 pmI agree. In many cases you can say a device or piece of software is better or worse after using it for a few projects.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2019, 04:04:13 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on September 21, 2019, 09:55:57 pmYou're out of touch, the Keysight can be hacked using a file on a USB stick, just like the others:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-978-keysight-1000x-hacking/msg2062735/#msg2062735Quote from: 2N3055 on September 21, 2019, 09:55:57 pmThe ones in the "under $700" price bracket.nb. Ineverdiscuss 'scopes in the "over $1000" bracket because I don't know much about them and have never used them.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2019, 07:41:39 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 22, 2019, 04:04:13 pmThanks for clarification.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2019, 07:59:26 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on September 22, 2019, 07:41:39 pmClarification ? ?FYI there's 3 Siglent X-E models all well under $ 700.SDS1202X-ESDS1104X-ESDS2202X-EAll 100+ MHz, 14+ Mpts, Decode and 500uV/div real sensitivity.And Fungus the Rigol/KS/GW Instek pusher won't even state a model ?Quote from: tautech on September 21, 2019, 09:21:35 pm

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2019, 09:59:21 pm
content: SDS1000X-E

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2019, 10:26:36 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 22, 2019, 09:59:21 pmSDS1202X-E at $379 is half the price of a KS, 200 MHz has Decode as standard and many times the memory and higher sensitivity.But we compare apples with oranges and a fair comparison with KS (when you decide to state a relevant model) is SDS2202X-E with it’s comparable 2GSa/s that still outspecs competition in many respects.Again, a model # for the readers and the OP for which to study real comparability ?

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2019, 11:11:16 pm
content: I think the only Keysight below $700 is the DSOX1102A. 70MHz, 2 channel, 1Mpts, 2GSa/S, 50k Wfms/s (not including hacks)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2019, 12:08:05 am
content: Quote from: BillB on September 22, 2019, 11:11:16 pmIt's actually a 2+1 channelMSO, but who's counting...?

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2019, 08:41:22 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 23, 2019, 12:08:05 amThanks, I agree that wasn't well explained by Keysight. This makes the DSOX1102A a much better scope than 'normal' 2 channel scopes IMHO.

author: Mortymore
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2019, 09:12:54 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 23, 2019, 12:08:05 amThat is the sort of thing that I would expect, after a few years of hibernation with a TDS210 and a TEK2445, that all modern 2 ch scopes would do.EDIT: It's a digital world, and in a scope with decode options, a 3rd input is obviously handy, and should not be that demanding to implement. Or so I think...

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2019, 09:18:52 am
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on September 23, 2019, 08:41:22 amWell it is nice, but SPI decoding for MOSI and MISO at the same time still doesn't work (or at least it says so in a manual).So you get same decoding for SPI as 2 ch + timeout...For decoding you really need 4ch scope.