You asked for real knobs? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: chicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 08:24:49 pm
content: Not sure if this will catch on, but here's Microsoft adding a real knob to its touch screen and stylus user experience.http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/26/13417028/microsoft-surface-dial-announced-surface-event

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 10:33:16 pm
content: A hybrid drive is essentially a separate HDD and SSD in a single package. The SSD is normally on the lower end of the capacity scale (32-128GB). The drives are bonded via software and show up as a single drive. The low level file system driver will keep frequently used apps and files on the SSD portionAt least that's the definition Apple uses. (If you install a separate SSD and HDD in your system, you can use some special commands to turn it into a Hybrid drive if you want.)

author: chicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 11:59:20 pm
content: I don't care what's inside the PC. Wouldn't buy this expensive all-in-one anyways.I thought the physical dial is an interesting new user interface concept, especially in the context of frequent complaints on this forum that "virtual" scopes lack real knobs.I'm torn on whether it's a good solution, but interesting approach nonetheless.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 12:07:12 am
content: Interesting idea.I do wonder, though.....As with all untethered accessories, the risk of them playing hide-and-seek would be a concern - as would any inquiries along the lines of: "Have you seen my knob?"

author: chicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 12:18:49 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on October 27, 2016, 12:07:12 amMe heading over to Urban Dictionary. Ooh, that's why they are branding it as Dial.

author: ECEdesign
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 12:38:08 am
content: Design concept is pretty cool. I could really see this as cutting into some of Apple's margins with creative types. For the power hungry engineering types I think they will always want the modular tower style PC that can be easily upgraded. It keeps costs down and performance up.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 01:13:12 am
content: I think Apple is falling behind. They have been stalling with putting anything significantly new on the market in terms of actual computer products. Even their new iPhones is a bit meh.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 08:39:44 am
content: The knob reminds me of a gadget I used to have about 15 years ago. I want to say it was made by Griffin... It was a knob, about the size of the one in the OP, made of solid aluminum with a base only slightly larger in diameter than the knob itself. Between the knob and the base was a thin translucent ring that lit up with blue LEDs (this was the early 2000's after all). The knob could be "clicked" as well.Anyway, it connected to your computer via USB. It could act as a mouse scroll wheel, or you could use the provided API to directly access scroll and click data, plus control the brightness of the glowing ring.It was super handy for scrubbing video or audio during editing. It was also very nice for scrolling long documents, since the knob had a real weight to it and would continue spinning a bit if you gave it a good heave.It was very nice! You know, it would be a cool project to make a modern BTLE replacement.

author: riyadh144
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 09:51:29 am
content: I was at the Microsoft store today and tried to use this, it was brilliant the touchscreen was responsive as heck, it had a very high resolution more than 4k, the dial was nice and an interesting feature it felt real good and it had some gravity to it, they should make it magnetic, as it falls down at steep angles. But the device is amazing, if I was an artist I would buy it in a heartbeat, or if I had enough money to not care.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 04:11:08 pm
content: My ultimate prediction and thought on this is that it's a case of pointless innovation.It's honestly Microsoft turning into Apple so hard they are getting a sore arse. I mean pointless touch interface, minimalist design, overpriced lump of rubbish with poor specs, and it's targeted to professional graphics designers? I mean they even copied the bloody apple logo on the back of the (Tablet?), something Apple has been doing for over a DECADE.I don't go much graphics work, but I do do a lot of computer oriented work, and that looks more useless than something Apple would make. I doubt even serious graphics designers want that because they already have working professional tools in place that are probably cheaper and more effective than a 4000 dollar computer. The Wacom tabs are not that expensive for a good one, and if you're a serious cretin, I mean graphics designer, you will be using Apple anyways (since they have all the good friggin software,)It's something Microsoft never made, never needed to make, and never should have made. I even bet you the stupid dial doesn't work.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 06:13:43 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on October 27, 2016, 04:11:08 pmMicrosoft is trying way too hard to steal the "creative" market from Apple. They've been running TV commercials here in the US for the last few months that feature everything from college students (liberal arts majors) to broadway set designers gushing over how much better their Surface Pro is compared to their old MacBook, because they can draw on the screen...In reality, they're comparing Apple's to, uh, well, not Apples! A better comparison would be a Surface Pro vs an iPad Pro, really.I also know a few designer types who use (and love) a combination of of a MacBook Pro + iPad (with a third party pressure sensitive stylus). There's an app called Duet that lets you turn an iPad into a second monitor. There have been apps like this before, but they were traditionally laggy when run over WiFi; however Duet does it over USB, so there's no perceptible lag.So essentially, your iPad becomes a portable Retina Screen + Tablet. Works great for everything from Photoshop/Illustrator to web design and coding. (I use my iPad mini as a third monitor for my MacBook Air when I need extra screen space. I drag a browser window over to it so I can view PDFs when doing board layouts.)

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 06:45:12 pm
content: Meh.. I will wait until the Iron Man style virtual displays come out. Until then I am good.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 06:49:16 pm
content: Quote from: timb on October 27, 2016, 06:13:43 pmYou know what else does that? A touch screen monitor! A feature Microsoft tried so dearly to implant into Windows 8 user's head. They made an entire touch screen operating system that would have done "Alright" on a mobile device where a touch screen makes sense, but I have only ever seen one touch screen monitor in my entire life. I am not joking. I think Microsoft just got sick of waiting for people to buy touchscreen monitors and decided to shove them down our faces outright.And I can see why nobody wanted a touchscreen monitor. There have been light pens for YEARS, Wacom tablets, are already the tool of choice for the average graphics designer, and if they wanted a touch screen from drawing, they could get a touchscreen monitor and put it on a VESA monitor arm.And another more on topic comment, a knob? Really? Just a dial. I understand the want for more physical controls, even though having tons of buttons on a portable device is just asking for butt dialing, but who said, "You know what would be a great physical accessory for our touch device? A DIAL." I mean how many uses does anybody have for a dial? I saw the example of a colour picker, but I never thought "Damn I need a dial because choosing from an RGB square was just too damn hard". I mean you could do volume? But there isn't any problems with volume rockers. It's just not needed and falls into my comment of pointless innovation.Nobody needs what Microsoft is making, and what we do need, Microsoft tends to be doing a pretty shit job of making. Calling to my other post about EOL operating systems, a great consensus about operating systems is they stopped being good right around Windows 2000, XP if you have four hours of time to clean it up. Microsoft has somehow found a way to branch into many fields like gaming and hardware that nobody asked or wanted them to, fail at all of them, and on top of that, ruin the mainstream experience for everybody else.I am just waiting for the day that software devs realize that if everybody took residence in Linux, Microsoft would loose any reason to exist.

author: Jeff_Birt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 06:56:22 pm
content: Good lord, do you guys have a job or do you set around all day thinking of new and better ways to hate Microsoft?The Surface, even an 'old' Surface 1 is much more than a iPad. They are laptops shrunk down to tablet size and they run the full Windows OS. Don't like the Windows OS? Great but get over yourself already, quite your constant whining and bitching about all things MS.It not helpful in the least, seriously it is not. Nobody in the entire world wants to hear you go on and on and on about how you hate Microsoft.What ever OS or PC hardware it would be on the knob is a very interesting idea in its own right. Really, forget about the OS and PC just think about the UI aspect of this idea. I can imagine all sorts of different things like the knob one might overlay onto a screen to make custom/composable user interfaces. If the idea could be expanded to work on large format screens, white boards, etc. Think of designing a user interface for a oscilloscope, you could layout a bunch of 'smart/real' buttons and knobs on a screen and immediately try it out. Don't like it? Ok, then reconfigure it, just like Legos.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 07:21:31 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on October 27, 2016, 04:11:08 pmCalling graphics designers "cretins" is not a good way to assert the authority of your opinion on a product aimed at graphics designers (and similar). Also, the Wacom products that are most comparable to the surface studio (Cintiq) cost on the order of $2-3k, and they don't have a computer built in.It's possible to have no interest in a product or even dislike it *for yourself* without shitting on anyone who likes it. Just because you don't understand its appeal doesn't mean it's bad!

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 07:47:35 pm
content: Quote from: ajb on October 27, 2016, 07:21:31 pmMaybe I went a bit hard on it, although I just googled and the 3K wacom tab is the one with an i7 in it, but I seriously don't get the point. There is and has been stuff already out there for ages, and this brings nothing new to the table. And yes, Microsoft doesn't make good anything ever. They haven't made a single good product since Windows 2000, and the reason I am so bitter is the fact I am forced to use their products.It's a family fault, I tend to go into long arse rants about stuff most people find petty, my dad is the same. I do think most of my points are valid. Microsoft has failed in almost any industry it entered, and is failing in it's main industry.Sorry for pushing my opinions, I thought that's what forums were for.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 11:23:48 pm
content: The majority cost of this thing HAS to be the panel. It's way beyond 4K and multipoint touch. It wasn't so long ago we were happy to get those no-name Korean 4K displays for $500 because they were half the price of the Dell ones. Heck the PAIR of 24" IPS panels I use on my main desktop (with LED backlighting) cost less than the first 23" TFT display I bought many years ago. Plus color gamut calibration (not, it can be calibrated, it COMES calibrated) and this is a pretty interesting device. I have no use case and as such will not be buying one, but it is by no means crap hardware and really isn't insanely overpriced as it first appears.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 03:30:35 am
content: "You asked for real knobs?"No. No I didn't. In fact like everyone else I'm quite happily adapting to abstracted UIs on screens, that have NO physical components. That can be universally controlled with a single 2-dimensional control plus three buttons. (A mouse.) Adding a scroll wheel on mice was about as far backwards on that path as I want to go.The funniest thing about the Microsoft 'it's not your knob, it's your dial' thing, is they demo it as a color picker. BUT... sorry, a color picker requires 2 dimensions at minimum, and really three. Chroma, luminance and saturation. Anything less is useful only as a colorful demo clip for people who have no idea about graphics.I suppose that since it's shown working on the screen, that it is not wireless, and _only_ works when in contact with the screen? And that only one can work at a time?Sigh. If they did a generic input knob device, that could work anywhere, allow as many as you wanted to work together, and be fixed (magnets?) to a backing sheet, that might be useful for some things.At first I was expecting the MS-knob was a joke, like the Macbook ESC key.

author: Don Hills
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 09:40:14 am
content: Microsoft late to the party as usual... From the IBM 5080 CAD system, many years ago:... yes, they were called Dials.

author: NottheDan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 10:59:41 am
content: Quote from: timb on October 27, 2016, 08:39:44 amThe3DConnexion SpaceNavigator. It is still available.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 12:15:21 pm
content: Quote from: NottheDan on October 30, 2016, 10:59:41 amClose! It was sort of like the SpaceNavigator's baby cousin...Edit: Here we go, Griffin PowerMate:Apparently the LED part was in the base! Anyway, it looks like they came out with a sleeker, Bluetooth version a few years ago, too. Neat!

author: Jeff_Birt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 12:31:51 pm
content: Quote from: NottheDan on October 30, 2016, 10:59:41 amThe MS knob thing sits on the screen and is directly interactive with the screen. None of these other devices do that, they are just typical HID devices.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 08:27:13 pm
content: Quote from: Jeff_Birt on October 30, 2016, 12:31:51 pmYes, we all understand that. The point was that adding a knob as a control is nothing new.Anyway, I'm not sure just how useful being forced to place it on the screen is. A knob (like the PowerMate I linked above) is useful for a couple of things: Scrubbing audio and video tracks during editing/playback and scrolling long documents quickly.Now, the MS IntelliKnob doesn't look very useful for scrolling, because there's no weight to it, therefore no momentum (you can't physically spin it and have it keep going). I'm also not sure how well it could be used to scrub, since you generally don't want something blocking part of your screen when you do that.On top of all that, you should be able to add this type of functionality to *any* MultiTouch device, just like most off the shelf pressure sensitive capacitive touch styluses...The base of the knob would be made from a layer of non-conductive rubber; then you'd inlay three small dots made from a conductive material into it. This way, the screen can sense where the knob is placed. (If you made this rubberized base clear, you could also have it glow in any color you wanted, simply by lighting up the screen underneath it.)Inside the knob, you'd have a BTLE transmitter, to send data about the knob's rotation (this is how pressure sensitive styli relay the pressure data). A single coin cell should last a long time.Boom. Now you've got a device that will work with any tablet or modern capacitive touch screen.

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 11:06:18 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 26, 2016, 09:30:32 pmStill, compare it to an imac, which this is clearly aimed at, and I'd rather take this.It's probably a bit behind on specs because of how long it would take for this to go from early stages to a released product, and I bet it will have a kick ass upgrade soon(ish).