HP does it again: bricking third-party ink - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2023, 07:30:36 am
content: HP outrages printer users with firmware update suddenly bricking third-party ink:https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/03/customers-fume-as-hp-blocks-third-party-ink-from-more-of-its-printers/

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2023, 08:09:59 am
content: You were not supposed to do that!Joke aside, I've read printer's hardware is underpriced, sold for less than it cost to manufacture, and they hope they will recover the loss by selling you overpriced consumables. If one only buys the printer and no extra ink, the bottom line for manufacturer will be negative, they will leak money instead of making money.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2023, 08:08:20 pm
content: Yup. Has been the case for a long time now, pretty much when inkjet printers started to become popular.So you can't blame manufacturers for trying their best to prevent you from using third-party ink, they make their profits on ink.You might not like the concept, but keep in mind there is no way you could have gotten the printer that cheap otherwise, to begin with.If you want to avoid that, just buy a laser printer that can be used with third-party toner without a single issue. The overall cost of ownership will even be much lower in the end, maybe not initially, but over its lifetime.That's a bit of the same discussion as with overall durability of new products, repairability, etc. Sure you want your stuff to be more durable and repairable, but are you ready to pay *more* for that?Are you ready to live with products that work well for long periods of time but may not be the latest up-to-date gear?

author: twospoons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2023, 09:50:33 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 10, 2023, 08:08:20 pmI have never regretted paying more for quality. Not only does it work out cheaper in the long run, the thing itself generally works better.I am so sick of the 'race to the bottom' engaged in by so many manufacturers.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2023, 10:02:16 pm
content: It's at the point where I think there should be a law that a printer manufacture can't take steps to prevent you from using 3rd party ink, voiding the warranty if it can be demonstrated that there is a reasonable likelihood that the ink/toner used contributed to the failure being the maximum they can do. Hopefully that would invalidate that business model.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2023, 10:07:10 pm
content: I have a 8620 better check the firewall to confirm it doesn't have broadband access.If the printer breaks down after the warranty, do they care? no.So why should they care after what ink you are using.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2023, 11:22:33 pm
content: QuoteAKA the razor razorblade technique,sell the razor at a loss and the blades at a profit

author: WattsThat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 01:16:38 am
content: I needed a new printer. Wanted color. I refuse to buy HP based on their razor and razor blades model although I’ve been happy with their laserjets. A color laser was overpriced IMO for home use.Epson must of heard me grumbling. Stumbled over a thing called the EcoTank. Printers are ~$300. Ink arrives in bottles. The print head is forever. The color tanks are ~125 ml, the black ~250. A set of epson refill bottles are less than typical cartridges but they last a very long time. I’ve run more than 1K pages through this thing and ink levels are still at full. So far, I’m impressed. It’s what ink jets should have been from the start.If this Epson holds up, HP will be in big trouble in this market space. They deserve to get clobbered, big time.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 01:20:20 am
content: My color laserjet was under $300, it prints both sides of the page and the ink doesn't smear if it gets damp later on. I swore off inkjets years ago, I hate the things.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 02:18:46 am
content: officejet pro 7740 paid over 450 CAD shitty head, head clog once in a while with original stufftried some older FW with non genuine ink, still clog once in a whilepffffffbut i need 11x18 flat bed ......... software suck big time

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 09:08:17 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 11, 2023, 01:20:20 am...but wait...some new HP laser printers MUST get an internet connection so they they can be "activated" before they can be used. So once you create your account with HP and activate the printer, you are ready to print. It's really simple.https://reviewed.usatoday.com/tech/features/hp-explained-what-hp-plus

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 10:22:49 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 10, 2023, 08:08:20 pmThat's why I love my second-hand Kyocera. Put any random toner in there, it says "Original toner installed" on the display and off it goes. They also still provide drivers for it I-don't-know-how-many-years after it was discontinued.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 11:12:16 am
content: Quote from: DimitriP on March 11, 2023, 09:08:17 amWell in that case they can have the f****** thing back, can't they?

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 11:33:51 am
content: This is a reason why I was lucky to get an old Konika Minolta MFP back when I was in Portugal from a company shutting down.Having some experience with such printer's maintenance I replace all the wear parts from it and put it to use at home. Did it consumes a lot of energy when it's used compared with a normal printer, yes?It is a big guy (2x A4 drawers for close to 1000 sheets of paper each plus an A3 one) but wear parts are cheaper and easy to find online, toners are reasonably cheap and have a long page count and prints both sides, scan both sides, have fax and email functionality and it cost me 1000€ plus 400€ in parts to do the maintenance.Today still going strong at my mom's house, not needing maintenance in the next 10 years because of the amount it prints per year.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 01:44:41 pm
content: Quote from: DimitriP on March 11, 2023, 09:08:17 amThat will be when the order gets cancelled and printer returned to the vendor. I'm fed up with electronics has to be tied to the mother ship and that the vendors and the hackers can reprogram at will. And that the manufacturers can simply drop their support when the "new model" comes out and let the items brick themselves because their SW timed out.In fact, I'm in the process of buying a new home heating and AC thermostat for a friend that is going blind and the Wi-Fi connected ones are the FIRST to get crossed off of my list. I'm seriously considering using an old mercury switch based thermostat. No times, no dates, no vacations schedules, no set backs, and no tiny, tiny menus on a TINY screen that he can no longer read; just simple and reliable.Back to HP; this is just another in a series of very bad management decisions from a once great engineering company that is now clogged with Harvard MBA types looking to make a fast buck.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 01:56:09 pm
content: loll you dont hear about cars too ford as issued a pattent loll for car recollection if not paid etc ... and other brands who want YOU to pay to get options still running in the car lollllwindows is now a serviceyou buy things ...... just buying them YOU acknowledge some mothership communications ..... IOT thing tooo yada yada ... check BIG BUG humoristic and satiristic movie ... it give you some ideasAnd yes bad HP management, i just want to trash my huge @$# printer

author: PeteH
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 01:59:52 pm
content: It would be worse if they just detected the 3rd party ink and intentionally produced poor prints or randomly increased what appeared to be clogged heads, etc...

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 02:12:17 pm
content: I had an Samsung laser printerThey deliberately blown an resistor in the fuser after x hours of use, not quantity of printing, to create the need to buy a new one, i had lots of toner left ... trashedIt's not HP anymore, other brand too will find loopholes in law and try their best to make us pay

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 02:38:20 pm
content: Quote from: WattsThat on March 11, 2023, 01:16:38 am...until it gets clogged. Make sure to print at least a page that uses all the 6 colors, a week. I now print one every other day, when the printer isn't in use otherwise.And then they have that "flush pad", which, when the printer decides that it has to be replaced (I don't know what exactly triggers it -- it's either a page counter or ink flush counter, or maybe both), will require you to pay for its replacement in an authorized service center. It's easy to replace it on your own, but you need service software to "activate" it and reset the respective flag after it's replaced.Essentialy it means they have created a problem that you must pay them to solve.

author: Peabody
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 03:02:16 pm
content: I've been using a Brother inkjet printer for close to a decade, which doesn't phone home or require OEM ink cartridges. I just received refills from Ebay - two blacks and one of each color for $10 total. But it won't last forever, and I wondered if anyone has experience with more recent Brother models, particularly laserjets, as to whether they too have switched to the dark side on refills or fake end-of-life stuff.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 03:46:28 pm
content: Quote from: DimitriP on March 11, 2023, 09:08:17 amIn CONTRARY to this:https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Printer-Setup-Software-Drivers/Why-do-some-printers-need-to-be-connected-to-the-internet-to/td-p/8131898QuoteQuoteIf it is not clearly stated on the box that it requires internet in order for it to work I'll take it back and make a complaint.I see for the first time:https://www.amazon.com/HP-LaserJet-4001dwe-Wireless-Features/dp/B0B2BH816Y#customerReviewsQuoteGood they mention these things so to help prevent it being purchased by accident for those who don't want that.QuoteI could do that already through VPN which does not need internet access to function through the firewall.QuoteRubbishThat depends on your internet connection.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 03:53:21 pm
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on March 11, 2023, 02:12:17 pmHP bought Samsung's printer business in 2017:https://press.hp.com/us/en/press-releases/2017/hp-completes-acquisition-of-samsung-electronics-co---ltd--printe.html

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 04:49:52 pm
content: I have a brother combined laser printer / copier / fax, that has a rather strange way of telling that the toner is empty. There is a simple mechanical counter for the drum an when the printer shows empty and used for an extended time after that (still works for quite some time) it starts to cause more frequent paper jams - just turn back the "counter" at the toner cartrige with brute force and all is good again.I wonder how many of the printers got thrown away for being broken just when the toner is empty or possibly even after getting the new toner, just not installing it.Another rant about newer HP printers: The printer internal WLAN does not cooperate with older WLAN standards. So 1 HP printer and an old WLAN stick combined mess up the WLAN all around by causing interference / conflicts and new assignments of channels in a near infinite loop. One should replace the old sticks - so there is an easy work around, but I don't think the behavior or the HP printers in compliant with the regulations.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 05:06:55 pm
content: QuoteAvailable connectivity has caused some "really smart" "management types" to go nuts.We haven't reached the point of having to scan a QR code before the roll of toilet paper will unroll...but I'm afraid there is some "smart" person out there trying to figure out exactly that.Regarding dropping support: They do. There is a slew of "old" printers that didn't have drivers for W10. Unless of course you installed a generic/universal/corporate PCL4 or PCL 5 driver. (skipping the 150MB to 370MB "driver and applications package".

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 05:12:49 pm
content: https://www.amazon.co.uk/HP-OfficeJet-Colour-Printer-Instant/dp/B08YQW6SJHHP OfficeJet 8025eAll in One Colour Printer with 9 months of Instant Ink with HP+Quote*Confused, it says OPTIONAL.** I find that very insulting and condescending.It thinks ahead using the strict instructions set by the advanced thinkers at HP for the mass majority who are very stupid and confused and don't know what they are doing that'd they use the wrong ink and not use it correctly by connecting it up to an internet connection that works with it.QuoteOne second it says "optional" then a requirement, an option"If that is not optional like it is that is very misleadingQuoteVery misleading.Something OPTIONAL that they PUSH in the markerting material.QuoteDenying the user to print to the printer that they own until it is connected to HP.Designed for mugs and suckers.What when one they day stop supporting it and and you try to use it standalone and they are using this environmental thing with their cartridges.https://www.hp.com/gb-en/shop/product.aspx?id=229W9B&opt=687&sel=PRNQuoteVery vague and not clear that that is an essential requirement before even think about purchasing that printer andhidden under the arrow.Just noticed on the HP listing: "See complete specs" very stupid idea, I want see the full specs not be presented with a lot of white space inbetween:QuoteSo they say this is optional above with HP+ like trying to confuse the two buthidden away that it is requiredSimilar thing with the Amazon listing and the white spaces and information hidden awayunder an arrow:QuoteI wonder what they are trying to say, is that an option or a requirement or a requirement of "connected HP+" if the owner opted for on the printer.Mumbo jumbo bullshit:Quote*The user is very stupid, they don't have the natural ability to even comprehend connect it up and printing locally without plugging into the internet.**It does not keep itself up to date, the manufacturer controls it directly and through firmware updates.I want my stuff left alone to function the way it was, when I brought it without interference.***Ready to print? not if it is not connected to HP or I use it standalone.****Print and scan from the palm of your hand? UTTER NONSENSE? No internet no print.*****There is no "advanced productivity" that you can "enjoy" if it can't be used standalone and depends on internet and connection to HP.******Easily share resources. Nonsense - No internet no print.QuoteWith what is mentioned above and when I hear that language and tone I think this is where they are effectively calling the users STUPID.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 05:18:17 pm
content: QuoteI don't know who stayed under the HP name or HPE or whatever they call themselves this year.I'm under the impression that all the "HP greatness" stayed behind with Agilent/Keysight (another management mangle there-but that's another thread) , OR by now have retired while HP meant something good.Sad.HP is now one of those words that one has to decide by the context."Scored an HP instrument on ebay!!!" = Great company of the past"damn HP idiots" = probably printer or all in one PC loaded with "HP helpware"Sad.My answer to "which HP printer should I get?" is : ABrother!

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 06:59:01 pm
content: Quote from: DimitriP on March 11, 2023, 05:18:17 pmThat's what I did. After having numerous color printers and RARELY using color printing, I found that most of them used various amounts of color ink even to print black. And I was running out of color ink even though I literally never used color printing! Grrrr! I finally went and bought a BLACK print only Brother printer and I use that for 99% of my printing. I've replaced the black ink cartridge probably once in the past 15 years. Before that I was replacing all four color cartridges and a black ink cartridge about every 18 months. The Brother printer has probably saved me over $1000 in the last 15 or so years.The US Federal Trade Commission and some of the regulatory agencies in other countries really should have launched investigations in the trade practices of HP and the other printer manufacturers YEARS AGO.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 07:45:58 pm
content: Quote from: DimitriP on March 11, 2023, 05:18:17 pmGreat company of the past.The words I'd use to describe them now & this printer cart trick are "Rat Bastards".

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 07:56:37 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron onTodayat 11:59:01 am>Quote from: DimitriP onTodayat 10:18:17 amBrother!That's what I did. After having numerous color printers and RARELY using color printing, I found that most of them used various amounts of color ink even to print black. And I was running out of color ink even though I literally never used color printing! Grrrr! I finally went and bought a BLACK print only Brother printer and I use that for 99% of my printing. I've replaced the black ink cartridge probably once in the past 15 years. Before that I was replacing all four color cartridges and a black ink cartridge about every 18 months. The Brother printer has probably saved me over $1000 in the last 15 or so years.The US Federal Trade Commission and some of the regulatory agencies in other countries really should have launched investigations in the trade practices of HP and the other printer manufacturers YEARS AGO.Here, read this, but don't do it on a full stomach:https://press.hp.com/content/dam/hpi/press/press-kits/2020/hp-response-covid-19/Enrique%20Lores%20CEO%20bio%20.pdfOk spoiler below:QuoteThe guy barely broke 21M in total compensation in 2021 ! ( fromhttps://www.hpannualmeeting.com/pages/executive-compensation/executive-compensation-tables/)Things to keep in mind when you consider your next HP printer purchase

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2023, 01:30:30 am
content: https://www.coolblue.nl/en/advice/how-do-you-set-up-your-hp-printer.html#:~:text=AnHP+ activation is irreversible,can create an account now.QuoteBefore this recent firmware update. This HP+ option locks the user in and bricks their printer from using third party ink and demands internet to work after the subscription so basically the customer no longer owns the printer and looses control.https://www.hp.com/us-en/printers/hp-plus/standard.htmlHP LaserJet printers without HP+HP LaserJet M209dwBuy Hyperlink leads to:https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-laserjet-m209dwe-printerQuoteNow they tell you.The models with'e'at the end is HP+ that require you to use their ink (before this firmware brick) and demands a working internet connection to HP in order to print.Reviews on page:QuoteQuote*I thought it was misleading but proven above and below that some of their "NON HP+ printer models" on their "HP LaserJet printers without HP+" now directs you through the URL's to models that require internet connectivity to HP at all times and HP only cartridges.QuoteQuoteIt looks to me like they are selling the printer as a service with a limited window to opt out on some models.Why don't the install a sim slot and provide sims in them as part of the service.So that model that is non HP+ and without the ink issue before the update:https://www.amazon.com/HP-Laserjet-Wireless-Printer-Printing/dp/B093JC85GQQuoteSensible at the top of the page with the specifications.Nothing about internet required and nothing about dynamic security.Not many reviews though and 2 negatives ones not showing.Back to that page for Non HP printers with it says "HP LaserJet printers without HP+" and standard in the URL:https://www.hp.com/us-en/printers/hp-plus/standard.htmlHP LaserJet MFP M234dwhttps://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-laserjet-mfp-m234dwe-printerHP LaserJet MFP M234sdwhttps://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-laserjet-mfp-m234sdwe-printerThe above URL'S on the page lead to the models with 'e' at the end so they are HP+.HP LaserJet M110w Printerhttps://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-laserjet-m110w-printerHP LaserJet MFP M140w Printerhttps://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-laserjet-mfp-m140w-printerVery naughty. So the first two results direct you to HP+ versions printers with non hp ink restrictions (before the brick) and internet requirement just to print locally.https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/23/03/09/2214253/hp-outrages-printer-users-with-firmware-update-suddenly-bricking-third-party-inkQuoteSo that's what that security thing does "Dynamic security" it works against the user and the company pretends (HP pretending to be the customer) that this "protect(s) the quality ofourcustomer experience"QuoteSo out of touch.HP interferes and bricks printers not part of HP+ in ways where it refuses to work with third party print cartridges.Company calling the customers stupid claiming that their printer is smarter than them and can think (where it is HP pulling the strings in the background) with this "Dynamic security".So what from I understand:Dynamic securitySo a third party ink provider finds a way to make their chips work with the printer.HP spies on the user through the software to determine if cartridge is non HP.If HP suspect that the cartridge chip is non HP they will instruct all their printers that are connected up to block that chip or make changes to their chip info on the cartridges later on and through firmware updates.https://www.gearrice.com/update/how-to-prevent-your-hp-printer-from-updating-and-be-able-to-continue-using-non-original-cartridges/QuoteI bet they will "fix" that problem above in order "to protect the quality of their customers experience."When that reviewer above talks about HP confusing the models between HP+(e) and NON HP+ to try and entrap customers into a subscription model I don't think their attempt worked good enough as they expected it to so they chose the firmware brick again to target the ink.Joke: So customers can't complain to HP as they won't be as likely to find printers of the same model that can use non HP cartridges.Forced ink forced connectivity to operate.I will think of this as the HP aggression.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2023, 02:04:27 am
content: Used,HP Laserjets, for ,decade's4050, iii, lately M12W.no internet connection on the old modelsAccept clone, refill cartridgeB&W, cart lasts,1000s pages.Dumped,all our,HP, Epson, Brother inkjet printers and fax, long ago.Use a professional 12x18" Konica Minolta for colorJon

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2023, 02:51:23 am
content: HP's new printer sales pitch; "now includes freeBrickware!"

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2023, 07:40:38 am
content: Not that I'd ever buy an HP product new, they've been on my very exclusive shit list since they first tried this trick in 2016, but I wonder how this HP+ can be irreversible. Doesn't that mean you can never buy a new printer and sell your old (HP+) one as used?

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2023, 07:42:19 am
content: https://www.ebuyer.com/1427042-hp-laserjet-pro-mfp-4102dwe-a4-mono-multifunction-laser-printer-with-hp-2z622e-b19Shows full specification and that is is "HP PLUS" which is nice but:It does not mention of it demanding internet access or the use of genuine HP print cartridges in order to operate and nothing about dynamic security.apart from something that doesn't seem related in the small print:QuoteLook at the price difference between the NON "e"/HP+ model.HP LaserJet Pro MFP 4102dweA4 Mono Multifunction Laser Printer with HP Plus (Mfr part code: 2Z622E#B19)£ 293.99 inc. vatwith £243.99 after Cashback dealHP LaserJet Pro MFP 4102fdw A4 Mono Multifunction Laser Printer (Mfr part code: 2Z624F#B19)£448.98 inc. vat£154.99 morefor a Non HP+ printer with no internet and (genuine cartridge requirements up until now)Nothing on Ebuyer's own listing about the requirement of internet and genuine ink cartridges contrary to the (HP LaserJet Pro MFP 4102dwe) model selling in the HP shop:https://www.hp.com/gb-en/shop/product.aspx?id=2z622eQuoteNow that is clear.Disclaimer small print hidden under an arrow:QuoteSo they have gone from hiding the disclaimer small print under an arrow to hiding the full specifications in other listings.Quotehttps://www.hpsmart.com/gb/en/smart-advanceQuoteI could pretty much do everything I need most that are on that list with my existing printers, except I wouldn't use a stupid "app" to do it on a tiny input-limited touch screen phone or tablet.It wouldn't surprise me if they prevent you from doing basic scanning after two years until you start paying up monthly for it.Joke: Oh basic scanning is now a "Hp Smart Advance feature" that needs to be paid for.I see that they are trying to sell the printers cheaply for a fraction less off the price with these clauses to guarantee them revenue from the ink they sell to gradually pay off the difference. I wouldn't mind paying the extra but not if they are going to start interfering and controlling the printer remotely at every opportunity when they feel like it like now to prevent third party ink. It reminds me of a similar thing I read about to do with property.There is this company called HomeWise (HW60+), what they do is buy a property outright and charge the occupants 2/3 (knock 1/3 off). Under the agreement (*depending on their situation) when they die they take the 2/3 (the property now belongs to them) under the claims that the occupant can purchase property worth more than they can afford *.Also last year with the bullshit that Fox-ess, Ginlong and a load of other inverter manufacturers were up to when I was finding out about a monitoring appliance. Upload the data to the website to download it no broadband no datalogging or monitoring to do with the "smart" wifi stick they wanted to sell me where they control the inverter directly and issue firmware updates automatically and I can change parameters on the website which is a big nono.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2023, 11:11:49 am
content: And we already have a nice acronym for what HP does: PaaS (PlatformPrinter as a Service)

author: mapleLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2023, 01:07:21 pm
content: Stick HP where its most funny... own and maintain their old workhorse printers forever!My best example.HP 2050 series printers, its the only one I use.Cheap cartridges, workhorse printer. The DN has networking.You can do 200k pages on them no problem. I bought a used one with 160k pages, not a single problem 5 years on.While my wife has these stupid level thingys on her pretty printer with a shiny display and the never used scanner.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2023, 02:31:12 pm
content: Awful EX HP CEO Carly FIORINA did an excellent job of destroying a fine and Pioneering electronics company.The breakup into printer, PC and instruments ( Agilent, Keysight) resulted in much worse,and more costly products, poor service and these kind of,DRM printers.Our HP instruments from the Golden age of 1970s..1990s are,all still in service as,are,the three 4050TN and M12W printers.Most,recent HP ( Keysight) instrument,6.5 digit DVM 34465A off a local list, new, with Keysight calibration for $1000.Perhaps my last HP!Jon

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2023, 04:25:33 pm
content: Just found this:https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-products/electronics/hps-software-update-made-printers-incompatible-with-other-ink-cartridges-class-action-alleges/474 thoughts on HP’s Software Update Made Printers Incompatible With Other Ink Cartridges, Class Action Alleges45 pages with the first from October 19, 2021 and last March 10, 2023 so they had been doing this for some time.I thought they stopped soon after their first attempt in 2016 where they backpeddled and offered to undo do it through the firmware.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2023, 02:58:18 am
content: Quote from: DimitriP on March 11, 2023, 09:08:17 amWhat a load of shit. Only in the rarest of cases should a printer need to be exposed to the internet. Otherwise it has no business connecting outside your network.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2023, 03:19:36 am
content: Quoteyea but HP+ is helping save the planet manQuotewonder how many pages = 1 tree

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2023, 03:47:59 am
content: I've had really good experience with my HP printer, but when I tried to recommend a printer to a friend I encountered that HP+ garbage and that really rubbed me the wrong way, I find it absolutely unacceptable, especially the fact that with models that have it as optional you are locked into it once you try it. There is absolutely no excuse for that, the lock-in serves absolutely no purpose to the user.I wonder if it's possible to hack one of the E models with the ROM from a fully featured non-E printer.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2023, 06:19:52 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on March 11, 2023, 06:59:01 pmBeen and done:https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/hp-to-compensate-printer-customersThey'd look at this discussed remote update to see if it has the user opt in with informed consent.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2023, 06:33:46 am
content: There kinda needs to be a donation/crowdfunded organization kind of like the Institute for Justice but instead of helping people defend stupid court cases they run ads exposing stupid company decisions and calling out BS publicly.Company should be scared to do BS stuff but they're not and that's the problem.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2023, 07:34:47 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on March 13, 2023, 03:19:36 amThey seem to smear it all over their campaign, so when they say it requires internet connectivity to operate and genuine hp ink cartridges that environmental thing is shoved at the end of what I think as a possible distraction.What I don't understand is:That article:https://reviewed.usatoday.com/tech/features/hp-explained-what-hp-plusQuoteRequiring a broadband connection to HP or printer won't work and and they call that an improvement.I could do everything very easily I need to on a desktopWho thinks she is being paid by HP for her article?Quote1* Why would you get rid of something that works?2* rearranging your subscriptions should require a printer and they talk about saving the environment unless they are trying to mention it to make it look normal.3* So I am going to get rid of perfectly good things because I am changing a room around?QuoteIt is NOT free after two years according to the terms and connections.

author: mapleLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2023, 02:22:33 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on March 13, 2023, 06:33:46 amSome have not learned yet that these kinds of non-profit structures are generally sink-holes. It's where people with useless "educations" go to "work" making overall life worse for everyone.I needed some magnets the other day. Ebay right? No! Some blovaton institute in canada harassed ebay to the point where 1 less person in a decade may swallow a stupid magnet. That stupid nonprofit got to Amazon too... you can only get gorilla fist sized magnets on amazon because you may want to swallow one that's 3/4" or something even more idiotic.Careful with this kind of thinking, as it leads to jobs for those which generally would fail once the oversupply of librarians subsided.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2023, 04:44:16 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 13, 2023, 02:58:18 amEspecially since HP had plenty of security issues with their print server software. Also, a network printer can be used as gateway by attackers (was demonstrated a few times already). From a security perspective, a network printer with internet access is like asking for a disaster.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2023, 05:00:45 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 13, 2023, 02:58:18 amNot only outside the local network, but it also has no business connecting anywhere inside the network as well. Its only business is to acceptincomingconnections to receive print jobs.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2023, 11:24:06 pm
content: Quote from: shapirus on March 13, 2023, 05:00:45 pmIndeed!

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 10:10:53 am
content: Exemptions (mostly in business environments):- alarming/logging- authentication- sending scans to a specific destination, e.g. local email

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 10:53:46 am
content: Quote from: madires on March 14, 2023, 10:10:53 amAgreed. Some configurations may involve this.Quote from: madires on March 14, 2023, 10:10:53 amWe talked about printers, not scanners or MFDs.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 04:29:23 pm
content: Video rant from Louis Rossmann: Dynamic security secures your money into HP's pockets (https://odysee.com/@rossmanngroup:a/dynamic-security-secures-your-money-into:a)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 04:48:33 pm
content: It will secure their printers into the dumpster and my future money into some other company's pockets.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 05:53:46 pm
content: bQuote from: madires on March 14, 2023, 10:10:53 amI just checked the manual difference between the 8020 and 8020e plus model and even with all their demands met it seems you are right:HP PLUS printers.Basically they are full of shit.No scan to memory device either.Scan to network folder. I can't believe they have not got this basic useful feature that does not require, broadband, (connection to hp as it would) an account, and an Amazon AWS to scan, a stupid "app" called the HP "SMART" app that depends on a phone/tablet, it's battery, operating system changes and HP's willingness to continue support any change in the future.Scan to network folder just needs a fileserver or network shared folder, "touch a button on the printer" foldername, click shortcut and there it is.So they removed this feature and are using all these fancy buzzwords names, HP+ enhanced, improvement, dynamic this and that, "smarter app", reliable, easier, touch of a button etc and they remove something that was at the touch of a button and make the marketing look prettier.HP User Guide OfficeJet Pro 8020 series (STANDARD/NON HP+)http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c06291141.pdfHP+ (PLUS) User Guide HP OfficeJet Pro 8020E SERIEShttp://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c06940368.pdfWhat use to be optional (HP PLUS) OR HP+ has now been embedded in the printers firmware in certain identical models marketed in such a way to confuse the buyer into buying the HP PLUS models which deprive and restrict them of functions they'd usually have with printers before or the standard model.Look what I found:https://www.reddit.com/r/printers/comments/et4cf2/hp_officejet_pro_8025_scan_to_network_folder/QuoteI bet they have got theemodel.Search Google "HP Officejet Pro 8025" -> shoppingand the search is full of these "e" models.See attachment.Good that Google shopping has a "Best match" that actually works and shows the relevant item.In other words HP+ or (e) models are just locked down printers.

author: Peabody
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 09:37:12 pm
content: Are all printer manufacturers as bad as HP? Including Brother? Cause if they aren't, why would anyone ever buy an HP printer ever again?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 09:46:22 pm
content: Name recognition? I bought my HP printer because I'd had good experience with them in the past, and mine is fine too, but it's pre-"e".Brother was always one I avoided because at the time at least the toner they use didn't work well with toner transfer PCB etching.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 09:53:05 pm
content: Obviously first thing is to again avoid inkjet printers. The whole business model of inkjet printers has *always* revolved around the same thing, and it's making profit with ink.You will almost never find any inkjet printer on the market without this crap, except maybe for the most expensive ones with rechargeable ink reservoirs.It has also spread to laser printers as printers cost has plumetted. A $100 or less laser printer? You really think it's going to make vendors any money? They'll get it from toner.Your best bet is to target pro or semi-pro gear these days. It will be more expensive obviously, but over the life of the printer, not so much. I would avoid HP these days even in their "pro" lines and go with something like Xerox. Brother wasn't too bad, but from what I've seen, quality has gone downhill, I would stay away now.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 10:49:15 pm
content: I forgot to mention. I was give this Brother MFC-J5910DW printer. It can print A3 but only A4 scan.There is a glitch with it that when wifi is switched on, the ethernet stops working and even after disabling the wifi until factory resetting it. Some days after I got it and discovered the issue the owner already brought a new one.What I noticed about these cartridges is that I can't see any electrical contacts.They have this glass window.So it looks like a light sensor/receiver is used to detect the ink levels through the glass.I don't think I have seen a cartridge like this before.I don't use it often but only when I want to print quality stuff out and it has been quite reliable everytime I use it.I also have a QL820NW printer with battery that still works and a PT-E550WVP that I got in 2018 and both still work without problems. What I like about the PT-E550WVP is that even thought it comes with a lithium battery it also has contacts in the same place for AA batteries. They also use the Pt touch software and very flexible.I remembered this Brother printer in a college once back in 2010. It was used for printing test results and would go through many boxes of paper in a week. Sometimes a part used to break inside. I can't remember what part but when the toner ran out they found it cheaper and quicker to print to the Canon photocopier upstairs when I connected it up. They'd go upstairs and it would be finished and stapled up. I think it was a Canon IR-3045. Scanning on that was really good, 2 seconds to scan a something in a3 using the network Scangear tool.Speaking of ENTRAPMENT:https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Printer-Setup-Software-Drivers/Disable-regret-HP-printer/td-p/8269413QuoteNow I find this bit is interesting:QuoteQuoteQuoteSo HP confuse the HP+ addon that's available for any other printer with the HP+/e series. I think I know what "e" stands for now after comparing the manuals.e=embeddedbut I think in this case calling itentrapment is very well fitting.Joke:HP's new Officejet 8010entrapment series printers.The new HP way. Entrapment using a play on words and deception.Why are they even called "HP+" to begin with when it is more like "HP-" where you loose features.

author: Peabody
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 02:27:45 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on March 14, 2023, 10:49:15 pmMy Brother printer has cartridges like that. There's a little float flag that drops out of the way when the ink level drops, and a light sensor detects that. But I noticed that the printer would shut down way too soon because you were "out of ink", so that a lot of ink was left in the old cartridge when you had to put in a new one. The solution is to cut out a piece of black electrical tape and cover that window. Then printing will continue until the ink actually runs out. I just install that tape on all four cartridges when they are new.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 04:12:11 am
content: Thanks you, there is some left in there.At least that removes the incentives of what is being done here.Dynamic security secures your money into HP's pocketsLouis Rossmann 1.76M subscribers 48K views 1 day agoYoutube Transcript:Quote* So they are using copyright as an excuse.In that case if they care about the printer so much in this way whether it is new or out of warranty that didn't come with Dynamic Security then they should buy the printers back as some had been mentioning in the comment feed.Above statement found here too:https://borncity.com/win/2022/09/10/hp-neue-druckersperren-euroconsumer-vergleich-erreicht-entschdigung-fr-verbraucher/They seem to have listened to "customer experience" at some point 2016 and reversed it and I read they provided updates to undo it. Now they are pretending the quality of the customer experience by ignoring and not listening.I came across this printer many years ago. It belonged to someone as a spare never opened. Their printer broke down so they asked me to set it up.I took it about the box, it looked really nice and compact large screen but when I switched it on the and horrors. They ruined it.They put these distracting annoy things, I think there were large tiles to games or something on the top always stuck there and they made the icons that do matter at the bottom smaller and removed the labels. I couldn't find a way to hide them.I think of it as the most stupid printer I have ever come across.I just found what it is: HP Photosmart 7520e-All-in-One Printer series (about 2013)E model: Surprise surprise.I said to her, what the hell are games doing on a printer and pushed in front of the main screen. This is insane and beyond stupid. No printer should have games on it it's job is to print. Not spam the user with unwanted things.I told the lady to take it back. She could as it was over a couple of years old and no receipt.Apparently they were not games but they did look like it to me:Actually I found some with labels on the top and bottomhttps://www.druckerchannel.de/device_info.php?ID=3648&t=hp_photosmart_7520I don't remember there being labels on the icons on the home screen with the one I looked at (which I thought was very stupid) and even after touching the screen or maybe it was put on later through the the firmware or maybe I simply forgot. I did remember getting very angry at the stupidity that I had to face trying to read the manual and check around for solutions to get rid of the e-app things before I called the lady up to show her the problems and suggested she took it back for a refund.Complaints about it:https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Mobile-Printing-Cloud-Printing/HP-Photosmart-7520-How-to-remove-all-eprint-icons/td-p/2336853HP Photosmart 7520 - How to remove all eprint iconsQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteJoke:Oh they listened alright. I bet the same design team who designed that are still there today in power behind all this HP+ locked down, e-printer and cartridge bricking nonsense. They didn't listen then to complaints about that printer and now they are not listening at all unless they are forced to.So on that model in 2013 theyENTRAP the user with unwanted promotional things that gets in the way of printing tasks and frustrates the user.Now they do it to everything else and the "stupid" apps have been set to take over.Users are very stupid but we have an "app for that" it is called the "smart app"Want to print, "Smart app"Want to scan "Smart app"Want to email "Smart app"Because you are stupid you need something that says "smart" to do stuff for you.I imagine soon they'll stop releasing their standard printers once they got most of their customers entrapped on their "E" ENTRAPMENT models and HP+ nonsense.Datasheet:https://arbikas.com/pub/media/files/CZ045A-:-HPP7520-specs.pdfQuoteCambridge dictionary:QuoteWell they call it "superb versatility" and the users can't turn the e-print apps off.QuoteVery ambiguous. "on the go" can mean can also mean at home.Small print:QuoteLooks like this nonsense started out in 2013 on this printer.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 04:14:01 am
content: Just for reference and because it fits herefull story

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 05:07:07 am
content: Relating to:7:06in the videohttps://www.eff.org/cases/lexmark-v-static-control-case-archive#:~:text=TheSixth Circuit ruled in,software through other open interfaces.QuoteSo with these "e" models it looks like HP was creative and took care of the "other open interfaces" by restricting it through their stupid "smart app".I can see how Louise Rossman is right when about the race to the bottom and buying the cheapest.I remember many years ago I gave away a HP 3390 printer that I had for a few years to a friend.the genuine cartridges were I think nearly £90 or so but lasted quite well.After I gave it away the prices went up and up. I use order print cartridges for this friend and they'd pay me back as they didn't want to be bothered with ordering stuff online. I had two places I'd get them from where they were selling at similar prices, I think it was Ebuyer or Scan. So in 2014 it went up to £110, in 2015 £130 (he complained a bit at that point), in 2017 £180. He said he was going to down the road to an ink refill shop and for £40 they took his old cartridge and gave him a refurbished one that they refilled and no problems since.I'd expect it to be much more than that as £40 seems very cheap for it but I just don't know where the middleground is between cheap or what is reasonable pricing to the prices that cartridge type had gone up tpp.