Elon Musk can stick his submarine where it hurts - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 05:02:34 pm
content: This is hilarious, check it outhttps://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-13/thai-cave-rescue-hero-elon-musk-can-stick-his-submarine-where-it-hurts

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 05:32:08 pm
content: Big congratualtions to all of cave rescue divers and a great shame navy seal Saman Kunan died rescuing the boys. The BBC and probably a lot of other news organizations published a map of the system showing cross sections in places. it's a bloody difficult system even when it's dry ! Vern Unsworth was bloody right to tell Mr Musk where he could stick his submarine because he hasn't got a clue.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 05:55:05 pm
content: So when do we get electric, solar powered submarines, with 2 dollar tickets between Tokyo and New York going 2000Km/h?

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 06:24:29 pm
content: If it was in good faith kudos for Elon for at least offering it, but really this is something you'd want to test in a controlled environment for a while before actually using it, so I can see why they didn't want to use it. It also looked kinda clausterphobic, it perhaps needed to be a tad bigger at least. I'd want to at least be able to move my arms around. But I guess the idea is to be able to fit in very tight areas so he made it as small as is realistic.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 06:32:36 pm
content: Well, if those rescue people failed and killed a bunch of kids, their interviews would look much different.There is no time to try different options in a row in situations like this and you have to work on all options at the same time. I don't see the reason to bash the options that did not end up being selected.Now there is a tiny submarine, which can be perfected and used for similar situations in the future, so the humanity is better off than it was before. I don't see the problem here.Some call it PR on Elon's side. I call PR all the BS interviews those stuck up divers are giving.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 06:53:41 pm
content: QuoteBesides that, Musk doesn't need or buy any advertising.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 07:03:19 pm
content: Vern Unsworth said it might get as far as 50m from the entrance, what about the other 4km then ? I used go caving as a kid albeit in dry systems and I had friends free diving sumps in wet systems. There are a lot of places where the divers had to take their oxygen tanks off it's that tight. There is no way a mini submarine is going to help.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 07:06:39 pm
content: Elon Musk thought that he could help to he contacted the people in charge. I don't see a problem here. It's a far more useful attitude than sitting back and saying that you will pray for divine intervention.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 07:08:12 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on July 14, 2018, 07:06:39 pmDon't underestimate the value of thoughts and prayersAnd likes were an immense help.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 07:23:48 pm
content: Richard Stanton who was one of the rescuers who found the boys asked for making the mini submarine. Vern Unsworth is just a dick IMO. Rescue without a capsule became possible only because water level dropped, if it didn't things could be completely opposite.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 07:24:45 pm
content: Oh look, another Musk love hate thread.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 07:25:17 pm
content: To be fair to Mr Musk, he tried but I don't he was given enough information about the difficult conditions.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 07:29:03 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 14, 2018, 06:53:41 pmWhat's the source of that image? If true, it seems Musk offered help that was welcomed and encouraged.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 07:29:53 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 14, 2018, 07:29:03 pmMusk's twitter as response to initial uninformed criticism. It is legit, unless we want to accuse him of faking it himself.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 07:39:03 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 14, 2018, 07:29:53 pmI'm not implying anything of that nature, I'm just careful not to assume things based on what was initially an image without a source. If Musk posted this I don't think many will doubt its veracity.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 07:40:14 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 14, 2018, 07:39:03 pmThat was not my implication either, I just wanted to cover all bases. It is the world we live in

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 07:48:42 pm
content: Also many pump manufacturers went to the site. I bet some of them put in some ridiculous ideas.But those you don’t hear about.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 07:57:37 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 14, 2018, 07:23:48 pmVern Unsworth was heavily involved in the rescue, knows the caves intimately, and persuaded the Thai authorities to bring in Richard Stanton and John Volanthen. Describing him as "just a dick" is uncalled-for.Given the stresses Mr Unsworth was under, a certain lack of tact when contemplating the efforts of a well-meaning but self-important dilettante is perhaps understandable.I am sure Mr Musk was very keen to help, and in different circumstances his ideas may have been valuable, but he clearly failed to listen to experts with relevant knowledge when visiting the rescue effort.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 08:04:09 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 14, 2018, 07:48:42 pmHistory is full of ridiculous idead that turned out to work.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 08:05:51 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on July 14, 2018, 07:06:39 pmOr joining in another Musk hate fest.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 08:06:18 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on July 14, 2018, 07:57:37 pmHe can be both heavily involved and a dick. Without more information about why these two are having an argument it's hard to tell.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 08:12:20 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 14, 2018, 08:06:18 pmAbsolutely. And since we lack that information it is inappropriate to throw around unearned insults.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 08:16:28 pm
content: It takes an additional risk if you have to send someone in there to take measurements first, just because a person fits through holes doesn´t mean the vehicle can. You might skip that or replace with estimations, maybe there is data available, but a rescue vehicle that gets stuck or fails means more additional problems or block the only way available completely. There have been disasters in which a quickly hacked together machine worked very well - no doubt about it.But aside of that I think it is possible to worsen a situation with help.Anyway, someone in charge needs to take the decision what is done and not be occupied with a direct or media-implied discussion or giving/receiving lessons while trying to do the best under pressure. I don´t think criticism (especially not in that wording and form) does actually matter right now or would be useful, this is just egos.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 08:18:21 pm
content: Maybe I shouldn't have said "Elon Musk hasn't got a clue" but I don't know if he's ever been caving and that's the point I was trying to make, should have perhaps elaborated a little more. If any of the posters here have ever been caving before, they would at least have some insight as to how difficult conditions can be.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 08:32:40 pm
content: Unsworth:1 Musk:0Sorry, fanboys...

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 08:40:44 pm
content: Derbyshire Cave Rescue flew out some Heyphones developed by the late John Hey G3TDZ. SSB at 97kHz. Phil Karn's KA9Q post on facebookhttps://www.facebook.com/phil.karn.98/posts/10155276627256486. The British Cave Rescue Association have a special interest group who have been working on cave radio for decades. I remember when VLF loop antennas were the in thing but they didn't get very far. Heyphone technical details herehttp://bcra.org.uk/creg/heyphone/

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 08:51:31 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 14, 2018, 08:32:40 pmThank you for your mature and substantial addition to the discussion.

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 09:18:06 pm
content: A submarine is not the worst idea in the world, if you look at the cave system diagrams it says it takes a diver 11 hours to swim the distance. That is not easy. I would not be surprised if the navy seal fainted/passed out from sheer exhaustion.. imagine swimming under water for 11 hours? It's insane. If you are not super fit you can probably get a heart attack from being on dry air and swimming for so long. Is some kid on a trip going to be capable of that kind of fitness?I wonder if they can make a long ass air line that has a buncha taps on it so you get an air port every 100 meters or so, so you don't get stuck without air incase there is a problem. You can bind/infuse a voice/signal line in it too so you don't have to rely on radio after its laid out, maybe just coils you can couple to with a special phone. using inductive coupling

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 09:23:26 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 14, 2018, 08:51:31 pmThank you too foryours.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 09:30:00 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 14, 2018, 09:23:26 pmI hope nobody breaks your balls yet again, just in case.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/reball-repair-(the-rossman-video-and-such)/msg1623190/#msg1623190

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 10:20:31 pm
content: Quote from: CopperCone on July 14, 2018, 09:18:06 pmYup. Most people couldn't see the problem with the rescue but the sheer distance underwater was the issue plus the fact it wasn't a straight swim but very awkward. The team did an excellent job.A sub would bring its own problems though, if the occupant had a problem with his air supply then no-one could reach him whilst underwater. Thus without thorough testing, not a sensible option.

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 10:42:00 pm
content: I kind of imagined the submarine would have handles/ropes on the side so divers can swim/get pulled some along or behind it. Using it unattended would be a nightmare. Just for transporting people that were very weak from being in a dark high humidity cave for a lon time, probobly cramped/sore.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 10:43:48 pm
content: Quote from: CopperCone on July 14, 2018, 10:42:00 pmThat is my understanding too. The submarine is basically like a pod to hold someone unprepared for a 4.5 mile dive. Sure it is cramped, but probably beats being in the open water.

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 10:44:35 pm
content: The benefit I can see is that you can carry a person that literarly fainted or is injured without risking hitting their head and suchWhat came to mind mind though is using a fuel tank that is supposed to go on the wing of an airplane, since its already streamlined and designed to be liquid tight. The propulsion does not need to be very efficient.I would call it an underwater stokes basket not a submarine. Have a diver from the outside control the ballast and thrusters with a control he holds

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 10:48:22 pm
content: Quote from: CopperCone on July 14, 2018, 10:44:35 pmAnd prevent issues that arise when an inexperienced person panics when breathing underwater with a regulator. I’ve seen that happen. It’s not pretty.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 10:48:39 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on July 14, 2018, 10:20:31 pmConsidering the involved rescuers asked for the development of the sub, that problem wasn't obvious or considered game breaking.Divers at the scene report the kids were drugged to the point that they were unconscious and "proper knocked out". Though I'm speculating a bit, this seems to point towards the children being bundled up and packaged as not to interfere with the operation or endanger the divers. You can't have an unconscious kid with arms and legs dangling everywhere, so it makes sense to wrap and bundle things up. This is essentially the same that the sub tried to achieve, although drugging the children is a bit more crude, though also a bit more flexible. It's even possible that "We're worried about the smallest lad" means they're not sure he'll respond well to being drugged.Of course people don't really fancy the idea of drugged up and knocked out kids shoved through narrow muddy tunnels like bags of meat, so it makes sense the situation is downplayed.

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 10:51:52 pm
content: drugging wtf? what if someone vomits in the regulator

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 10:58:03 pm
content: Quote from: CopperCone on July 14, 2018, 10:51:52 pmThat's less likely if you carefully select the sedative. Of course, medicine has already fixed that problem too. You just make sure the people transported don't eat anything 6 hours before sedation. Considering there were rescuers in the cave with the group at all times, that's not hard to ensure.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 12:16:40 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on July 14, 2018, 08:05:51 pmOr Musk arse lick fest! its a thought choice!

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 01:44:15 am
content: Re 'drugging' ; Harris (the lead diver) is a really down to earth anaesthetist (anaesthesiologist for US) and clearly there would have been compromises between sedation on one hand and panic from inexperienced swimmers let alone cave divers on the other. I believe ketamine was used, and I suspect that part of the 'slowness' of the retrieval was getting the young lads in the best shape (physically and mentally) before the dive.Musk's idea did seem a bit "out there" but there may have been some sections of the dive where it might have been useful. The guy who critiqued Musk, did come across as a bit 'wise after the event'.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 02:15:19 am
content: Quote from: VK5RC on July 15, 2018, 01:44:15 amI don't think there was a compromise. It seems they knocked those kids out. People might not like it, but it seems they took the practical approach. I think I heard reports they were training the children earlier on, so maybe they found out that was a dead end street.Using ketamine makes sense. It doesn't suppress respiration and it's pretty lenient when it comes to dosage. The latter means vulnerable patients don't die as easily from dosing things wrong, which is a good thing when your patients are a diverse set of children of varying weight, age and health. It also means you can more freely administer it under less than ideal conditions. They use it in field conditions for the same reason, most famously in the Vietnam War.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 02:27:42 am
content: Some of the news reports we received down here stated that the rescue team failed to get an internet connection operational inside the cave, I still have no clue as to why they would even need such a thing, back in my day we used a pick not a ping.

author: Eka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 02:46:41 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on July 15, 2018, 02:27:42 ampsychological for the parents, and kids.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 03:05:06 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on July 15, 2018, 02:27:42 amRescuing makes you hungry and pizzas needed to be ordered.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 04:07:59 am
content: While I give credit to the guy for what he has achieved, I'm not a fan boy of Elon Musk. I'm also not a blind critic of anything he does.HOWEVER, if I was trying to deal with a situation that had never been encountered before and obvious solutions were not at hand, I'd be looking for ideas from ANY quarter. Sure you can get some weird and stupid ones, but have someone with the knowledge to triage and assess them, in case something unknown and/or unorthodox presents itself.I'm sure that there would have been more than one person consider a mini-sub, but Elon Musk not only shared that thought, but had the resources to act quickly ... and he did. The fact that it did not get taken up, is irrelevant to me. Communication in any endeavour is often the key challenge and to compress that into a short time frame means any solution presented is going to have some elements that are going to be less than ideal.Certainly one thing such a device could have aided was the isolation of the occupant from those involved in the rescue - something that was made very clear as being a necessary precaution.Kudos to Elon Musk for having a go (IMO) and I would not be surprised to see a bit more development on this project, to at least get it to a practical operational stage.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 05:05:17 am
content: You have to agree with that. A guy with advanced production capabilities, effectively infinite resources and not to forget teams of the sharpest engineering minds around is going to be able to have a fair go at a problem no one really solved before. They even seem to have come up with what boils down to the same solution; immobilise and package the child and protect the diver. When nobody knows for sure what's going to work, throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks is a reasonable approach. They were cutting it close at the best of times and a day of heavy rain could have changed the situation quite a bit.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 06:44:36 am
content: Quote from: rolycat on July 14, 2018, 07:57:37 pmI think that sums up Mr. Musk's contribution nicely.

author: vis1-0n
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 08:31:20 am
content: It was a useful option to have. Maybe for a single boy, maybe for a single incident, maybe for a difficult section it would have made a difference if the need arouse.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 08:44:31 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on July 15, 2018, 06:44:36 amDo you even know what that word means? You can call Musk a lot of things, but in no rational world is he a dabbler, or armchair expert. Sure, he employs a lot of expert engineers, but I’m sure most if not all of them will attest to his skill and knowledge in his fields. Granted, he is no cave diving expert. But he never claimed to be, and at all stages of the process made it clear that he was seeking advice from those that are. Like others have pointed out, nobody could tell how things were going to go, (even the experts) so I don’t know how you smug know-it-alls with a masters in hindsight, can have a go at someone with the means and ability to help, OFFERING to do just that.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 09:08:05 am
content: When you have a problem the first thing you do is look for off the shelf solutions. There is one more now. That’s never a bad thing.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 09:21:16 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on July 15, 2018, 08:44:31 amWithout all the Tweeting, I might have seen Musk's "offering" in a different light.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 09:24:53 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on July 15, 2018, 09:21:16 amDo you have the emIl address of the rescue coordinator in your contacts list? It might be hard to believe for some, but Twitter can be a very efficient way of contacting someone when you don’t have any existing lines of communication. Especially when you might not know exactly who you need to be talking to.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 09:32:27 am
content: In the field of cave dive rescue, Elon Musk is practically the definition of a dilettante. To quote the Cambridge dictionary:"a person who is or seems to be interested in a subject, but whose understanding of it is not very deep or serious"He was clearly interested and concerned, but equally clearly his understanding of the field was anything but deep.Well before the rescue was successfully carried out, media all over the world carried diagrams of the cave system illustrating that sections of the access route included a tight right-angle bend and a section which was only 15" in diameter, where divers had to remove their air bottles in order to squeeze through. In addition, visibility was effectively zero, so divers had to feel their way forward. The likelihood of a mini-submarine being useful was infinitesimally small.I am by no means a Musk hater, but in this case he was clearly and almost literally out of his depth.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 09:49:57 am
content: Show me where he claimed to be a cave diving expert. He specifically said that he was taking advice from expert divers. What he is, is an expert in building life support rated craft for extreme conditions. (Dragon2, dragon life support suits) He had the thought that perhaps this could be a useful contribution.I don’t know why you are trying so hard to shit on someone else’s earnest attempts to help others in desperate need.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 09:54:47 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on July 15, 2018, 09:24:53 amYes, I'm sure that's why Musk kept tweeting about this.Come on. The man has his merits and certainly has achieved a lot. But you can't deny the "self important" aspect of his personality, and his very active interest in PR.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 09:55:12 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on July 15, 2018, 09:49:57 amBecause contributing an opinion is easier than contributing to a solution.If I'd had that attitude my entire life to every idea that had been proposed to me then I'd have missed a few very important ones.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 10:13:19 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on July 15, 2018, 09:49:57 amI'm not trying to "shit on" anyone, and you don't have to claim to be an expert in a field to be a dilettante.I have repeatedly stressed that I believe Elon Musk had a genuine desire to help. However, launching verbal attacks on those leading the rescue efforts and offending other individuals who made real progress in rescuing those boys and their teacher is not the best way to do that.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 10:19:47 am
content: Quote from: rolycat on July 15, 2018, 09:32:27 amWow! With your expert analysis of newspaper infographics and eye for detail, you’ve spotted some crucial flaws is the plan that nobody else noticed!If you really think these issues weren’t number one considerations, I don’t know what to tell you.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 10:41:47 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on July 15, 2018, 10:19:47 amYou evidently feel that sarcasm andad hominemattacks are the best way to progress the debate. Although I would be fascinated to hear how Mr Musk proposed to pilot a submarine through such apparently intractable hazards, I think I will enjoy the Sunday summer sunshine instead. Goodbye.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 10:42:21 am
content: Quote from: rolycat on July 15, 2018, 10:13:19 amIf you read actual tweet, there was no verbal attack to begin with. It's twisted reporting by media. Also media misreported what Thai official said.https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1016684366083190785?lang=en

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 10:59:36 am
content: Anyway, back to electronics, I want to know if the Heyphones were used and how well did they work. It all started with the Molefone in the 1970's followed by the Heyphone, the micro-Heyphone and now the much improved System Nicola Mk3. All use 87kHz SSB. Some information on Nicola Mk3 from Speleonicshttp://caves.org/section/commelect/drupal/files/Speleonics/splncs28.pdfTherfe is a ton of history and background information in the CREG Jounal Archive most of which is published in David Gibsons book "Cave Radiolocation"http://www.lulu.com/shop/david-gibson/cave-radiolocation/paperback/product-11253082.htmlSystem Nicola Mk3 has an all digital SDR "back end" and is designed to work from 2 to 150kHz. It's all designed and built by volunteers.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 11:28:36 am
content: How sad, thai's have shown no love for Musk's latest contraption. But luckily not everything is losthttps://twitter.com/prplppltweeter/status/1016831317953036288

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 01:51:30 pm
content: Well, this was about a disaster, after all. Many companies delivered help and equipment, from pumps to radios and diving equipment.It is easy to argue about all that in hindsight what would have been better - unfortunately there is never an ideal disaster to which ideal solutions exist.If you know a situation on site, this is often drastically different from what people have in mind when thinking about problems. Informations are always sparse at the beginning and need to be worked out over time. This is not a question of conviction or enforcing a certain "patent solution". Instead of reducing this question on personalities, check your own imagination against some information:https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/07/06/world/asia/thai-cave-rescue.htmlI guess the people that care least about insults and statements are the ones really involved... this was about saving 13 lifes and all have been rescued. If that result does not dwarf these opinions, what else does.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 03:51:56 pm
content: They collectively did a LOT better then I was expecting having done some of both caving and a little diving back in the day (But never both together!).I would not have been surprised to have lost one in 5 or so, to get everyone out with the only death being one of the support diving team before the attempt is an utterly remarkable achievement, for all that that death is a tragedy. In fact I would even give the coach credit for the groups survival in the cave, for all that going into that cave at this time of year.... Not the best decision.Hopefully once the media storm dies down there will be a good write up in one of the usual journals that goes into methods and risk tradeoffs. Sedatives? Yea, likely, seems like given the presence of a medic in the cave it would reduce the risks all round, but who really cares at this point, the important thing is that it worked.Meanwhile, while all media eyes were on 12 kids and a coach, a tourist boat went down off Thailand will the loss of 50 or so people, and Japan had circa 150 people killed by mudslides and flooding. Amazing how the media loves disasters that play out in slow motion (See also Fukushima and those Peruvian miners).Regards, Dan.

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 03:54:18 pm
content: Couldn't have rebreathers helped?

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 04:17:46 pm
content: Some of the divers were using rebreathers, but they are tricky enough to require significant training, and the common designs use the divers lungs to power the gas loop thru the scrubber and counter lung, so they need a mouthpiece, full face masks wont do it unless you have some other power supply moving the gas.For these reasons they are more appropriate for the rescue divers then the people being rescued, and even then if you are not very experienced with the kit, this was not the place to learn.Regards, Dan.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 05:27:54 pm
content: Musk's latest contraption is better then a science fantasy that will cost more then The Large Hadron Collider forevery 50km of tube or truck! only to find out a 600km/h straight line for thousands of miles at sea level without running into something! is fantasy. their still posting videos of this concept.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 07:37:49 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on July 15, 2018, 05:27:54 pmYou're in the wrong thread. Move along tothis threadplease.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 08:25:22 pm
content: This is Elon's submarine, Elon's submarine:

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 08:49:08 pm
content: That looks like a very reasonable attempt at a solution to the problem.In the end they did not need it but good on Musk for making the effort.As others have mentioned, ketamine would likely be the drug of choice in this situation. It does not suppress respiratory drive and airway protection reflexes remain intact.The problem is that with ketamine or any sedative drug, there would not be the ability to grasp a normal scuba regulator in the mouth. Musk's submarine would have been one solution. Does anyone know what they actually did? Some sort of diving helmet?

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 08:54:57 pm
content: Elon Musk seem to have totally lost the plothttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiJ8aAKWAAEXFJv.jpg

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 08:58:36 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on July 15, 2018, 08:54:57 pmNothing remarkable.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 09:15:57 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on July 15, 2018, 10:41:47 amHe's right, though. The leader of the dive team with first hand experience with the situation asked Musk to continue development. He obviously saw viability in the plan, or at least nothing pointing to obvious failure. How one can conclude the chance of success is infinitesimally small from halfway across the world and based on a few shreds of second or third hand information filtered by the media is questionable.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 09:16:01 pm
content: In further tweets Elon doubled down on showing vessel in the cave.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 09:19:32 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on July 15, 2018, 08:54:57 pmI'd say he shouldn't feed the trolls, but I like that he is seemingly putting his money where his mouth is. It's probably more effective than arguing on Twitter about it.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 09:22:49 pm
content: Quote

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 09:23:30 pm
content: Thanks GeorgeOfTheJungle you made my point. Exactly how far are you going to get that into a cave system with somethingrigid, maybe 8' to 10' long and at least twice the size of a diver. Not very far at all. You've got tight bends, boulders on the floor some of them massive in places, no headroom and really really steep slippery muddy slopes to negotiate. You would risk killing members of the rescue team and guarantee killing the people you are trying to rescue.I speak from experience and I've only ever done dry caves and maybe the odd mine. If it's wet system then it's orders of magnitude more dangerous.Fair dinkum, he made the effort but I don't think he has the mental grasp of what a cave system is really like and that is probably true when it comes to eevblog forum members as well, clueless, because you have no practical experience. Those who think otherwise, well maybe you should get off your skinny ass and try it. Thanks GeorgeOfTheJungle, a cave ain't some swimming pool FFS. I think Vern Unsworth was right, and Bud, it ain't funny.QuoteNo it's not, get off your ass and go crawl through a cave, then would have some idea. Judging by pretty pictures is for clueless managers - engineers on the other hand are more practical.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 09:36:56 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 15, 2018, 09:19:32 pmcalling the guy a pedo for not liking his submarine is not feeding the trolls or arguing on twitter, that's a whole other level of crazy

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 10:12:34 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on July 15, 2018, 09:23:30 pmWell, actually I have been caving, canyoneering and even cave diving through lava tubes off the Kona coast of Hawaii (some sections so narrow enough that my belly and the back of my tank were scraping the coral as I pulled myself through).For many caves that sub would work just fine. Not all caves are super tight or twisty. Do you have information about the exact dimensions of the cave or are you just another internet armchair expert?Notice the adjustable metal bracing that the sub is going through. I suspect that was adjusted to mimic the cave dimensions they were provided.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 10:29:38 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 15, 2018, 09:19:32 pmI agree. Musk spends too much time on twitter responding to the haters and feeding the trolls. Just goes to show he's human.The bottom line is he leads a couple of companies with remarkable engineering teams and the fact that they were able to put together a working prototype based on the info they were given from the divers on sight is quite impressive.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 11:41:36 pm
content: "pedo guy", what's that all about, the poster can't even spell properly, that's another level of crazy, stupid for sure.I just noticed, the 8" to 10" long "submarine" should have been 8' to 10' long, bloody imperial nomenclature, maybe 3m, close enough. Try getting a small 3m long I beam or steel bar through a cave system without bending it or getting stuck. Easy, peice of piss, yeah well go try it then. Easy for big tourist caves, you got a walk way built in. Too many people are being judgemental based on what they read in the press because they don't understand cave conditions.Go into a dry cave and you can crawl and squeeze anywhere depending on how you can wriggle your hips or ass because that's where you are going to get stuck. Ledges and sink holes, avoid them at all costs because it's a one way journey. My younger brother fell down a mine shaft and his rucksack got stuck half way down, lucky bugger. Slopes, well they're variable depending on the amount water errosion and mud, you can have some grip or bugger all grip. Sumps, your're lucky if they are dry, if they're muddy and there is potential of rain fall then they're are a one way ticket unless you can free dive it back in the dark.It's caving not rocket science.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 11:46:02 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on July 15, 2018, 11:41:36 pmYou just almost doubled it's actual length.QuoteWhich is 168 by 41cm

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 12:10:21 am
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on July 15, 2018, 11:41:36 pmExactly. Musk's team was given first hand information from the divers on site and detailed video of the passage. What would his engineers have to gain by making a prototype that would not meet the provided dimensions? And even if their prototype was tested and did not quite "measure up" - so what. At least they tried to help. This forum of all places should have people that understand the challenges in getting a prototype just right the first time. Another company that was also asked to try and build a similar sub did not even finish their plans by the time Musk's team was already testing their prototypeThe length the Musk haters go to in trying to tear him down is almost pathologic.Personally, I'm not a huge Musk fan. I think his Mars ideas are FOS. He's a businessman who does a lot of self promotion - that's what business people do and I always find it distasteful. He's also a futurist who dreams big and that requires promotion to bring others along if he has any chance of seeing his dreams realized. But FFS, he's achieved some remarkable things and has led teams that have accomplished some remarkable engineering feats. That is worthy of some admiration.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 12:25:13 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on July 15, 2018, 09:36:56 pmAlso crazy/stupid, a navy seal died plus all the other highly skilled divers involved warning about the dangers of traversing, ....and yet he's willing to send people in, risking their lives to float a tube down a cave, for his own sole purpose of 'would have maybe worked too! see!!'"You know what, don't bother showing the video. We will make one of the mini-sub/pod going all the way to Cave 5 no problemo. Sorry pedo guy, you really did ask for it." -Elon

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 12:32:36 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on July 16, 2018, 12:25:13 amPerhaps you didn't realize that he was asked by the person leading the dive team to do this. And that guy isis Richard Stanton. So all the self professed caving experts really look foolish.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 01:05:54 am
content: QuoteYou see what I mean, pictures are useless, they are for managers not engineers. It was a ball park approximation, I didn't digitally anal-ize it, I might have spelled that wrong. Maybe 3m is an over estimation, 2.5m overall length might be closer but to say I doubled it's actual length is a bit unfair. Even at 2m you would be well and truly screwed trying to navigate it around a cave system. If it was flexable you might have a chance.The obvious, in hind sight, might be a zip up "dry suit" without the lead boots and the screw on bronze helmet. You have to somehow suck some air out of the suit to make it skin tight whilst providing adequate breathing air pressure to the wearer. Flight suits for pilots pulling a lot a Gs are well established so setting up compression areas to restict airflow within the suit might be a possiblity. The escape suit, just like it's wearer it's flexible and it bends around corners and you can sqeeze it through tight spaces. For it to work it has to be more space suit rather than space capsule.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 01:09:44 am
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on July 16, 2018, 01:05:54 amYou don't know that since you do not know the cave dimensions. The divers on site for this cave system do.And BTW the length is 1.68m not 2.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 01:15:08 am
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on July 16, 2018, 01:05:54 amI quoted actual size but you are guesstimating yet again. saying 3m instead of 168 cm is exactly "almost doubling". Vessel specs were negotiated with actual diving expert who was in that cave.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 01:18:40 am
content: What's with all the emotional zeal here?I have mixed thoughts on Musk, I think in some circles he has been made bigger than life but whatever, so he tried something here that turned out to not be viable, so what? How much have the people ripping on him over this contributed to solving the problem at hand? I'll give the guy credit for trying, he was not the least bit obligated to do so and could have spent the time and money taking a fancy vacation or whatever it is he does for fun.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 01:25:45 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on July 16, 2018, 12:32:36 amIs this true? Can you send the article/post where Stanton says they should send people back into the cave to test the tube, after the rescue was complete?

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 01:30:18 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on July 16, 2018, 01:25:45 amYes

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 01:34:22 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on July 16, 2018, 01:25:45 amWell, the quote is true, but it does not imply that they need to do anything after the rescue is complete.Apart from somewhat vain attempt to prove himself right, it is not a bad idea to test it in the actual cave, to have the thing tested in some sort of real-life conditions.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 01:34:45 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on July 16, 2018, 01:30:18 amThat's from July 8 when people were still in the cave and Stanton was worried the cave was going to flood. Haven't seen anything so far where Stanton is now recommending people go back into the cave to test the tube.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 01:38:42 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on July 16, 2018, 01:34:45 amWhat does that have to do with what I posted? Who said he did? You are changing the subject.Bottom line. One of the worlds foremost expert cave divers who was co-leading the rescue team asked Musks team to do this. They did it!Turns out it was not needed. Hurray! They got the kids out alive.The ongoing attacks on Musk about this shows more about those doing the the attacking than anything else.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 01:38:59 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 16, 2018, 01:34:22 amContinue working on it and testing in a controlled way would be fine and good. Going back immediately to test in an uncontrolled space with an essentially untested device put together in a week, to find out if you're right or not, is stupid imo.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 01:47:24 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on July 16, 2018, 01:38:59 amWell it has been tested. And I agree with atarodov, testing in real world conditions would be the next step.The Thai Navy Seal death is a red herring. He ran out of oxygen. It's certain that in testing this that won't happen. Cave diving is done every day by experienced and inexperienced divers. Yes, it is dangerous. I've done it once but it's not for me.I wouldn't be surprised if after all the publicity this rescue has had that this cave becomes a tourist attraction and during flooding the cave divers are waiting in line to try it out.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 01:48:45 am
content: Quote from: wraper on July 15, 2018, 11:46:02 pmIn the linked video, the "sub" seems longer than the divers.Most adult males of European descent are taller than me, & I am 172.72 cm, so this in itself suggests the thing cannot be the quoted length.Perhaps they mean internal dimensions?

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 01:53:09 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on July 16, 2018, 01:48:45 amI suspect the one in the video is not exactly the same size as the one they would have provided. In the video the test subject does not appear to be a kid.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 01:57:24 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on July 16, 2018, 01:38:42 amI didn't change the subject please check quotes to root (langwadt)Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on July 16, 2018, 01:34:45 am

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 02:04:15 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on July 16, 2018, 01:57:24 amOK - fair enough -but it had nothing to do with my post that you were responding to and I've seen no one claim that Stanton asked Musk to test it in the cave after the fact. Looking back I guess I should have clarified that I was not offering that info specifically to address your post - just to address the idea that he was developing this sub without any request or guidance from the divers on site. So my apologies for my contribution to the confusion.BTW - I just checked. The height of the average adult Thai male is 167 cm. The boys rescued would likely have all been shorter than this. So it makes sense that the overall length would be 168 cm.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 02:06:56 am
content: QuoteThanks mtdoc at least there is another speleologist on the forum and you have some idea of what is involved, and you've done it under water, big respect. All my caving experience is from South Wales and in dry caves, it's twisty and tight and I've pulled the skin of my hips sqeezing through a hole I shouldn't have. Lava tubes and underground rivers are two completely different things geologically, I'm just judging it from my own experience, either underground rivers or the remains of accient mines. It's all down to geology and I just explored a tiny part of the UK. A proper geological survey of the Tham Luang cave system would be in order, just like any other large sytem, but it's down to speleologists doing it part time, nobody else gives a damn.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 02:17:34 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on July 16, 2018, 01:47:24 amI've been thinking to myself exactly that. The location doesn't seem to be near the regular tourist traps, but it seems inevitable the story will attract people. Apparently the cave already was a tourist attraction and this certainly won't hurt visitor numbers. Maybe the incident will even help popularise that part of the country.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 02:47:15 am
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on July 16, 2018, 02:06:56 amThanks but to be honest, spelunking is not my cup of tea. Sure, I’ve done it - but usually by necessity. I have done a lot of rock climbing and mountaineering as well as some canyoneering and sometimes that has required some spelunking. Only once did I intentionally go on a caving trip. My one experience cave diving was 35 years ago on a vacation to Hawaii. I did a boat dive trip and the guide just said “follow me”. We enterered a lava tube and it got narrower and narrower the farher we went. By the time I realized what I had gotten myself into it was too late to turn back! I can get a touch of claustrophobia at times and the combination of squeezing through a tight space while, breathing through a regulator underwater was anxiety provoking to say the least. Thankfully I did not panic.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 03:12:37 am
content: Quote from: dmills on July 15, 2018, 03:51:56 pmAs far as i have read it, the group was celebrating a birthday and brought some food with them, which was the reason for being there and helped with survival. If the way back is then cut off by water and/or orientation is lost (rising water level means the ground looks completely different, orientation marks vanish) or light goes out... anyone can get trapped.QuoteDidn´t understand this myself at first, but being in a cold, dark, wet cave without food for several days straight without hope of being rescued does do nothing good for a persons mind. The additional stress on the way out might put them over the edge. There is this popular rescue swimmer anecdote of the rescuee pulling the rescuer down because of panic. Makes more sense considering this. Of course they could have made it without.QuoteBecause those are cases where the outcome can be changed instead of shrugging shoulders after the fact. It also creates some public pressure to make buerocrats move faster than just the local news, up to the point where it makes things worse.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 04:49:52 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 16, 2018, 01:34:22 amIt may not be as vain as one might think. There are a lot of investors looking at every single one of Musk's farts, attaching all sorts of significance to them. Letting people walk all over the sub could hurt.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 03:48:27 pm
content: Quote from: dmills on July 15, 2018, 03:51:56 pmSorry for getting into a political topic, the accidents you mentioned are a tragedy of its own, but at the same time there are hundreds of people (including kids that might not have taken a decision themselves) drowning in the Mediterranean Sea because boats are unfit for the sea and/or overloaded, so they don´t make it and sink - on a regular occurence. The causes for trying to take the passage are important too, but not that relevant after the boat sank. What buerocracy in its worst form does can be seen in the "Lifeline" case.It is different because those are not the outspoken accident this thread is about, but still life is in danger, avoidable and possible to mitigate. It is the bigger humanitarian crisis, too big for single individuals to lift and probably "too distant" to get people involved too much. Everyone needs to function to some degree albeit having watched the news.Just saying, there are some parallels which some people do not get in order. A good media coverage rubs it right back into their face.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 03:56:34 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on July 16, 2018, 02:47:15 amThat makes my skin crawl just thinking about it. I'm generally not claustrophobic at all and in fact tend to like cozy enclosed spaces, but being underwater changes all that.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 05:18:32 pm
content: Yep the med is a massive human tragedy (In fact I would say the war driving much of the migration was the real tragedy).Maritime law (SOLAS) says that you are REQUIRED to render aid at sea and are REQUIRED to land the people you rescue at the first suitable port at which you make landfall, seems simple enough on that level, and probably works most of the time without major political pain when it is something like pulling a crew off a sinking fishing boat.Trouble is if you deliberately go out to do this thing when it is stupidly overloaded boats full of undocumented migrants (And that should be applauded, saving lives, generally a good thing!), then you get into the whole refugees/economic migrants political shitstorm (The difference between the two groups being something political types should really learn about before commenting on such matters).Migration (in the general sense of 'not like us') is an easy political target for point scoring with enough voters to make it a political imperative, but only because you are talking about 'Them' not some individual story, it becomes a much harder sell for most people (even the ones in the voting block that makes this a political issue) once you start looking at individual cases.Anyway, waaay off topic.Regards, Dan.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2018, 11:40:24 pm
content: This thread probably deserves to die, but I just read a post which I think is the only fair treatment of the whole debacle I have seen online.https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-full-story-behind-Elon-Musks-involvement-with-the-Thai-cave-rescue-effort

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 12:34:51 am
content: Unsworth can actually sue Musk for calling him pedo! Libel and slander!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 12:45:27 am
content: Quote from: MT on July 18, 2018, 12:34:51 amActually I don't think it would fly in court. Musk did not explicitly say thatUnsworthis pedo guy. In one of his tweets he just said "sorry pedo guy", whoever it was.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 12:46:45 am
content: I will agree the pedo comment was over the line and uncalled-for, but I can understand his frustration. I think we have all said something rude out of anger at one time or another, it's unfortunate that in the modern world any one of these outbursts can end up permanently recorded and analyzed under a microscope for years to come.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 05:07:20 am
content: While I find Elon Musk's words regrettable, I also feel the criticism that the sub idea would never have worked rather inappropriate and totally uncalled for.Certainly there were issues to be addressed as you have with any development, but the fact is, that the submarine idea never had the chance to be exercised because an alternate solution was successful.Failure to utilise Musk's sub is not a failure in the concept, it is simply an implementation opportunity that was never realised. To criticise it out of hand was simply opportunistic IMO and I don't endorse such attitudes.Would the sub have worked? Maybe, maybe not. We will never know, but I would like to think that development would continue to produce something that might prove useful in the future.

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 08:31:30 am
content: Elon the showman.Maybe he's doing all the so called 'awsome' stuff he does, for publicity

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 12:58:01 pm
content: Quote from: Raj on July 18, 2018, 08:31:30 amYou mean rockets, electric cars, solar and other things that push humanity forward? Whatever his motivation is, I hope he keeps on doing it!

author: In Vacuo Veritas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 01:09:39 pm
content: Quote from: gore on July 18, 2018, 12:58:01 pmYou want to push humanity forward? There is a significant portion of humanity that doesn't have access to drinking water or have sewage systems.The fact that you have some shiny toys is not an indicator of the entire human race's progress.Talk about narcissism. Yeesh. Look beyond your navel some day.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 01:19:22 pm
content: Quote from: gore on July 18, 2018, 12:58:01 pmPutting together a VFD a battery and a motor, is to push humanity forward? Ohh, yes, and an iPad too.

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 01:31:57 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 18, 2018, 01:19:22 pmThat's an ignorant statement. Transitioning from fossil to solar is immensely important for sustainability alone. Not to mention a number of other issues, such as pollution. And you skipped past the other things. I suppose the importance is undeniable.

author: In Vacuo Veritas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 01:36:43 pm
content: Quote from: gore on July 18, 2018, 01:31:57 pmYes, I suppose the feedstocks for chemical fertilizers and plastics will come from good intentions and Star Trek boxed sets.Yeesh, grow up, sunshine.Oh, you're 28? LOL, forgivable. I've got underwear older than you.

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 01:44:42 pm
content: Solar pannel division wasn't even his idea and investment.It was his brother's.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 01:52:33 pm
content: Quote from: In Vacuo Veritas on July 18, 2018, 01:09:39 pmYou are still not in Africa helping poor people? You dare to use internet and smartphone while people are starving? What a douche!

author: In Vacuo Veritas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 01:56:05 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 18, 2018, 01:52:33 pmI'm not the one talking for humanity or planning out the Space Future Of The Species (tm) with a Sharpie on a wall-mounted Gantt chart.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 01:59:15 pm
content: Quote from: Raj on July 18, 2018, 01:44:42 pmActually Elon gave an idea and money. Was shareholder and chairman.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 02:05:10 pm
content: Quote from: In Vacuo Veritas on July 18, 2018, 01:56:05 pmRight, you are sitting on the chair and do nothing other than criticizing people who actually move humanity forward. Isn't it a bit hypocritical? If Elon did not have this businesses, he would not have big money in the first place.

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 02:09:02 pm
content: Quote from: In Vacuo Veritas on July 18, 2018, 01:36:43 pmYou can't altogether avoid pollution of some sort. The question is of reduction. If you have a proof that solar pollutes more than fossil fuels - please share the data. You arent't proposing anything reasonable, neither are you talking for humanity. Beyond the petty insults, what exactly do you do?

author: In Vacuo Veritas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 02:22:46 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 18, 2018, 02:05:10 pmYou didn't answer how electric cars for a tiny minority address progress for HUMANITY (7.5 BILLION) when a lot of people don't even have sewage systems?I'm not the one talking for the whole species here.

author: In Vacuo Veritas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 02:25:46 pm
content: Quote from: gore on July 18, 2018, 02:09:02 pmYes, you're right, colonizing space is the reasonable proposition. How silly that I didn't see it before!Thanks for making me understand. Can I subscribe to your newsletter, maybe set up a sidewalk stand so I can yell at people and hand out rocket leaflets?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 02:25:56 pm
content: Quote from: In Vacuo Veritas on July 18, 2018, 02:22:46 pmThan why are you not fixing that to your ability if you have such high morals?

author: In Vacuo Veritas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 02:39:16 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 18, 2018, 02:25:56 pmShifting goalposts. YOU are the ones with the "high morals" of speaking for Humanity while beating your meat to rocket pictures. How does THAT help poor Africans? It doesn't, it just makes YOU feel good while YOU do nothing.You don't know what I do or contribute to, because unlike you lot of space-on-the-brain puerile dreamers, I *DO*, I don't *talk*.I used to be a Space Nutter just like you guys. When I was young. Part of growing up is realizing that limits exist and fairy tales are just fairy tales.I recognize word for word the same exact drivel and Future Of Humanity(tm) and Space Catastrophe(c) nonsense I spewed decades ago. The painful truth of it is that it's a religion.https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/03/the-holy-cosmos-the-new-religion-of-space-exploration/255136/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_cosmismIt's all nonsense. It hurts to grow up but that's reality. It's just you and me right here on this planet. You will die here, your children will die here, their children will die. No one is going anywhere. Not now, not ever.It's done. Deal with it.

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 02:53:27 pm
content: Quote from: In Vacuo Veritas on July 18, 2018, 02:22:46 pmA tiny minority can, and in this case will, turn into a vast majority. It's just the beginning for EV's. Transition from fossil to solar takes time. Do you honestly expect it to happen overnight. What about computers? Did we all start with billions of them overnight? Perhaps they don't have sewage systems yet because of a closed mindset, such as yours. A mindset of complaining and not doing a damn thing about anything. Judging by your reply #128, this is my last response to you. It's too ridiculous to be taken seriously and it's not even close to being funny as a joke.

author: In Vacuo Veritas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 03:01:40 pm
content: Quote from: gore on July 18, 2018, 02:53:27 pmYou are the one complaining about Protecting Humanity Against Space Catastrophes. Are you building a rocket?By your own standards, you are complaining and doing nothing. Are you building solar panels? Electric cars?You are ridiculous. One day, you'll look back at your nonsense with 20-30 years of extra life and laugh your ass off.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 03:08:33 pm
content: The saga is far from being over. I knew this so called visionary is insane. You can tell that by just how he talks.https://www.thestar.com/business/2018/07/17/elon-musks-social-media-conduct-may-be-bad-for-his-business.html

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 03:13:23 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on July 18, 2018, 05:07:20 amAs someone who has spent quite a lot of time underground and also a small time around cave divers I think the solution that was used is far more practical than the Musk suggestion, indeed in the promotional video it is a huge and rigid tube. It is not unusual for a cave diver to have to remove and push their all equipment ahead of them through constrictions, it's tight and all in zero viz. During my caving days, many decades ago, cave diver mortality rates were very high; it is ridiculously risky. Having a sedated casualty effectively wrapped in a flexible stretcher would make them far more bendy for the constrictions. IMHO I think the cave diver suggestion as to the use of the Musk tube was highly appropriate.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 03:22:55 pm
content: Quote from: In Vacuo Veritas on July 18, 2018, 02:39:16 pmNo it's you. I'm happy for every little thing that makes world better one way or another. It's you who demand to abandon everything and save poor Africans. That's why I ask what have you done to have a moral high ground to demand others improving the world your way?BTW I don't feel any moral obligation to help Africans. People should build their well being themselves. If somebody helps, it's a good will, not obligation.

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 03:28:57 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on July 18, 2018, 03:08:33 pmBy your standards nearly everyone I know is insane, because people do say a lot of silly things in private, and public, for that matter. The difference is not every person is scrutinized the way Elon Musk is. That being said, if I was Musk, I'd avoid getting involved in twitter drama wars. Nothing good seems to come out of it.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 03:47:32 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on July 18, 2018, 03:08:33 pm"According to the chairman of the government’s top transportation safety investigation agency, Musk hung up the phone on him during a conversation they had on April 11. The National Transportation Safety Board was investigating the March 23 crash of a Tesla Model X in Mountain View, Calif., whose autopilot function may have steered the car into a road barrier, smashing the front of the car and setting fire to its battery. The driver was killed.The NTSB had asked Tesla not to make statements about the accident while it was being investigated. But the company posted an item on its blog that seemed to cast blame on the driver, Apple engineer Walter Huang. NTSB Chairman Robert Sumwalt was asking Musk about that on the call."Eat this: killed dozens already, but never ever the autopilot's fault.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 04:20:06 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on July 18, 2018, 03:08:33 pmA lot of really bright people are to some degree. Tesla himself was off his rocker, especially later in life, but one can't deny he did come up with some brilliant concepts, along side some nutty ones.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 12:28:28 am
content: Quote from: wraper on July 18, 2018, 12:45:27 amWell you failed again Wraper Musk now confess it was Unsworth!In US courts the most amazing things have happend and can happen when one lest expect it!I dont mind Musk or who else do a sub to try save some kids.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 12:31:08 am
content: He also said, later, "Bet ya a signed dollar it’s true"https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jul/18/elon-musk-apologises-for-calling-thai-cave-rescue-diver-a-pedo

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 12:38:39 am
content: Now Musk is trying to twist Unsworts saying quote;My words were spoken in anger after Mr Unsworth said several untruths & suggestedI engage in a sexual act with the mini-sub,As a typical britton Unsworth obviously meant that Musks should shovel the sub up his own arse. Minisubs up in arse isnot sexual act its an expression of some one else faulty PR situation.Musik is clearly trying to avoid a court thing! 10euro that they settle out of court!Shame upon his highness glory Musk the dusk!

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 01:05:55 am
content: Quote from: Bud on July 18, 2018, 03:08:33 pmOboy! Musk have really engaged himself into crap, just as in his Paypal days!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 01:20:42 am
content: Quote from: MT on July 19, 2018, 12:38:39 amFYI it's exactly the place where some people put long round objects for sexual pleasure.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 01:31:24 am
content: See exactly what Unsworth said, word by word:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/elon-musk-can-stick-his-submarine-where-it-hurts/msg1672070/#msg1672070

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 01:47:54 am
content: Quote from: MT on July 19, 2018, 01:05:55 amYou mean when he was pestering paypal's developer, wanting to migrate everything from Linux to Windozes?BTW an important FYI for his fanboys:PayPal was established in December 1998 as Confinity, a company that developed security software for handheld devices founded by Max Levchin, Peter Thiel, Luke Nosek, and Ken Howery. PayPal was developed and launched as a money transfer service at Confinity in 1999, funded by John Malloy from BlueRun Ventureshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PayPal#HistoryStop pretending always and everywhere that Musk created/funded PayPal!Neither PayPal nor Tesla Motors!Spread the word.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 02:18:41 am
content: Quote from: In Vacuo Veritas on July 18, 2018, 02:22:46 pmWhataboutism isn't an argument. An argument from age or authority is also a fallacy and not actually an argument. Let's keep the discussion civil by following proper discussion etiquette.Besides, you seem to ignore that a small part of the world's inhabitants causes a large part of the pollution. All suffer for it, toiletless people included.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 02:19:41 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 19, 2018, 01:47:54 amI have to ask, George. What's your personal beef with Musk?

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 02:29:27 am
content: None, it's with the fanboys only. He's brilliant and smart (quite often a liar too). But the fanboys are like these:

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 03:15:33 am
content: It never ceases to amaze me how some people can be so obsessed with Musk. I’m sure there are Musk fan boys out there but what I see mostly on the intertubes is a whole lot of people who seem to emote constant Musk hate. It’s very cult like.Some of it seems to be political - since certain politicos are obsessed wih tearing down anything to do with EVs or solar PV (why should energy or the environment be political anyways?) On some websites it is very clearly financiallly motivated with the many people shorting TSLA.In the end, Musk is full of flaws like all humans but his achievements and 20 billion net worth must really get the haters knickers in a knot...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 04:44:23 am
content: I feel no particular love or hate for the guy. He has accomplished some truly impressive things, and he has pushed a few rather goofy ideas. As far as wealthy CEO types go though I really can't say he bothers me particularly, I don't understand the fixation some have.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 05:29:30 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 19, 2018, 04:44:23 amI feel the same. I find some of his qualities admirable but others not so much - just like most humans. I save my disdain for politicians, Wall St. bankers and lesser knowm CEOs of some truly evil corporations.I suppose it is our societies current fixation with the “cult of personality” combined with social media that leads so many to devote so much energy into publicly expressing their love or hate for celebrities- be it Kim Kardashian or Elon Musk.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 10:21:27 am
content: I'm quite a bit dubious about Elon.We have seen so many "entrepreneurs" rise to great heights & then sink into ignominy in Australia, so tend to expect this of all the current business cult heroes throughout the world.Billionaire worship is not naturally part of Australian culture, as it is in the USA.Most of us know that a few "succeeding" doesn't mean we all can, so the much derided "tall poppy syndrome" exists.My feeling is that it is a symbol of clearheadedness, rather than a bad thing.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 11:20:35 am
content: Quote from: wraper on July 19, 2018, 01:20:42 amThe point here isthe sizeof the minisub!

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 11:23:28 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 19, 2018, 01:47:54 amSo he managed that to!That was news to me!

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 04:21:17 pm
content: Not sure if it was mentioned earlier in thread but apparently there is a "pinch" point in the cave system about 34 cm across, where kids and divers would have to remove their backpacks/tanks to make it through. The sub will probably not pass through that constriction.Anyways, it was an amazing rescue operation and kudos to all the hard-working people involved.I'm amazed they were even discovered... How did that rescue team venture that deeply in (without themselves worried about getting stuck) to the point that they eventually found them?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 04:29:01 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 18, 2018, 04:20:06 pmCan't wait to see Musk starting sending tourists to Mars less than 6 months from now. If he does not fulfil his this claim he should be oficially considered a liar.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 04:37:28 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on July 19, 2018, 04:29:01 pmNow you are putting words in his mouth. There was no such claim. All he said was about test flights.Quote

author: Eka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 02:35:29 pm
content: Quote from: In Vacuo Veritas on July 18, 2018, 02:22:46 pmEver consider that most of those people who don't have sewage systems is political on the part of their own governments? Same thing goes for not enough food to eat.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 04:45:42 pm
content: It looks as if Musk may be having some sort meltdown - he's apparently repeated, and stuck his neck out much further, on his pedophile claim about Unsworth. It doesn't look as if that's going to end well legally.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45418245

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2018, 06:04:37 am
content: Depends if you’re the one receiving the cash or not. I’d quite happily let someone call me names for some cash.

author: timgiles
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2018, 06:53:54 am
content: Quote from: Bud on July 19, 2018, 04:29:01 pmWell no wonder he needed to make a sub! after he terraforms Mars in a couple of years he is going to need some way to transport people around with all that water!I respect SpaceX and the part he has played in that, but otherwise, he is a over aged millennial idiot.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 06:12:50 pm
content: Hmmm, it does seem to be a bit of a meltdown, or at least bad judgement as it knocked 7% off the share price...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45445554

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 06:24:46 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on September 07, 2018, 06:12:50 pmI don't think him taing puff of a joint and not inhaling had any effect, Teslas new chief accounting officer resigning after only five weeks is much more serious

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 11:18:45 pm
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on September 07, 2018, 07:39:19 pmI'm not entirely suprised the Musk flamethrower isn't a fully fledged weapon of war, which that big flamethrower definitely is. Even the smaller one would be incredibly dangerous and quite illegal in most places.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 09:05:40 am
content: Musk sends the wrong message to aspiring young people that is is OK to get into narcotics. Someone should tell Musk and the moron who interviewed him that most heroin users started with marijuana. I've known three people who have destroyed their lives with marijuana. None of the three have ever worked since smoking pot in the late 70's/80's. One died in his early 40's. Another is suicidal. The other two have carers because they are too useless to do anything useful for anyone - all because of smoking marijuana in their younger years. Pot is for losers.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 12:44:20 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on September 08, 2018, 09:05:40 amno one cares he was drinking whisky, he takes a puff of a joint without inhaling and everyone losestheir mind, that is just silly. Some people can't handle drinking, some people can't handle smoking pot, that doesn't mean the wast majority of people can't handle it with moderation

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 12:49:35 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on September 08, 2018, 09:05:40 amWe shouldn't pretend pot doesn't have its problems associated with it, but the gateway drug myth has been well and truly busted. Your experience fortunately isn't representative.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 01:32:12 pm
content: It seems Elon has more problems. A survey from the UK shows that Tesla makes the worst cars of all brands:https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/7190167/elon-musk-tesla-least-reliable-cars/

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 02:00:44 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 08, 2018, 01:32:12 pmMeh. I doubt Tesla will give much notice to a small obscure survey from a small market that likely only included a few Tesla owners.(how few is hard to tell - no numbers that I can find on the What Car? website but based on the total surveyed -18k, and Teslas small market share, it was likely very few).In contrast, in the US, the Consumer Reports owner satisfaction survey is highly regarded and followed.Tesla has come out as #1 on that survey the last 2 years.What really is going to make or break Tesla though is how many Model 3s they can sell. What the reliability and owner satisfaction scores for the Model 3 look like after a good number of them have been in the wild for a while will have an impact on that.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 03:38:17 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 08, 2018, 01:32:12 pmIt's also What Car, a HCM publication. They have almost complete ownership of motorsport and print media in the UK. Buy one of their magazines and look who the high value ad sponsors are. Literally do not trust anything on paper printed by the UK media. It's total shite. All of it. To note, the Sun, aggregating here has a target market of racist dumbasses who want to see tits and shame with some words between them, but not too many words because "reading is for fags".Not defending Musk or Tesla here, but simply avoid the above sources to start with.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 04:29:49 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on September 08, 2018, 02:00:44 pmI actually saw myfirstTesla the this week! Couldn't tell you what model, it was a great hulking American looking thing from the rear (Model S?)

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 04:30:53 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on September 08, 2018, 09:05:40 amThat's a worrisome statistic indeed.Four out of threepot smokers ruin their lives!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 05:07:49 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on September 08, 2018, 04:30:53 pmHe was apparently mentioning three people. Assuming the suicidal person is also one of the two being cared for.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 05:13:50 pm
content: The2½-hour interview #1169was really neat, Elon Musk is a visionary. Except for interviewer comedian Joe Rogan being kind of too stupid to really understand Musk's deep answers and then the set-up for him to take a toke, it's legal in 2018 California anyhow.The way he doesn't think "why not to do it" verses "how can we do this", like helping california's traffic problem by building tunnels. Reeeee Earthquakes? make the tunnels like a snake exoskeleton so they can move around.I'll take his "can do" problem solving instead of all critics who accomplish nothing.But I don't think Tesla is going to make it.Engineering is an applied science and has to take academics, dreamers, ideas and build something, which has been done.The manufacturing aspect it seems is a disaster for Tesla.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 06:20:41 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 08, 2018, 12:49:35 pmHis experience is representative believe me. My sister worked in NHS mental health for 5 years. 90% of the cases they had were drug related and mostly cannabis related. The harder stuff ends up in the morgue or on the streets and never comes back for treatment. Any drug use is a total shit show of destroyed lives and families almost unconditionally. That includes alcohol, tobacco for ref, both of which have really bad health outcomes even if they don’t ruin you via mental health. In countries where healthcare isn’t free, you pay or suffer so no one gives a fuck. Here in the UK everyone pays for every fucked up mess.I’ll eat my hat if they don’t start another bout of prohibition in the next decade in the US because half the population is fucked up.BTW It’s not a gateway drug but it links you to people who are a gateway to other drugs. That semantic difference is the elephant in the room.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 06:29:27 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 08, 2018, 06:20:41 pmBut isn't that exactly what legalizing cannabis is meant to change?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 06:34:38 pm
content: the 7% loss to investors is basically a 'prissy bitch' culling in my opinion. I can see people like that fucking up all sorts of things and dampening the shit out of a board of investors. You might be able to make more money without such elements present in the long run. Having those sorts of investors in your stock means it will probably have some kind of annoying fluctuation that complicates your own stock analysis because they are running for cover every time the wind blows.Taking money from any kind of radical element is generally best avoided. It's not like he was blasting giant crack rocks and yelling encouraging words about genocide on camera. The other man was drinking hard alcohol.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 06:56:48 pm
content: A lot of people have to use cannabis or rather CBD or Cannabidiol for cronic pain releif, multiple sclerosis for example. CBD is also an effective treatment for certain types of childhood epilepsy. Thant's just one of the 113 canabinoids found in the cannabis plant. I would be more worried about the effects of spice, it's probably killing more people than heroin ever did and makes a bit of weed look quite tame by comparison.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 06:59:52 pm
content: if you look into it spice is actually cannabinoids theoretically, problem is its dosed wrong (some are more potent) and mixed with stronger opiods sometimes (cheap stuff).The various compounds inside of spice are invented as tracer/substitute molecules for doing biological research on cannabis. Like metabolic intermediates and substitutes that effect the various biological processes in the same way for determining function of biological systems. I do believe you get some nasty carcinogens occasionally doing that method of study with compounds designed with the goal of receptor interaction only, since you don't care what happens outside of your test jig.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 07:09:01 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 08, 2018, 03:38:17 pmBetter tell that to the Dutch newspapers as well then because that is where I got the story from and I simply Googled for an English version. I did wonder why every Brittisch news paper website has half naked ladies on it so thanks for explaining that

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 07:15:16 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on September 08, 2018, 06:29:27 pmNo what it has done is turned your local dealer into a salaried salesperson on a supply chain which will tip at some point to a race to the bottom when dispensaries start undercutting each other. It’s all happy Wild West stuff at the moment. Give it a few years and you’ll see the nasty side of the business making an appearance again. Like it has in amsterdam where the entire thing is propped up by crime syndicates who cut it with small amounts of PCP. Oh no wait that’s happening already; enjoy your accelerated psychosis.Incidentally my ex I spent three years with was a dealer. I know the industry inside out. Have some skeletons in my closet for sure.Quote from: chris_leyson on September 08, 2018, 06:56:48 pmThis is exactly the sort of escalation we see.It’s why we have strong medical regulation here in Europe.Quote from: nctnico on September 08, 2018, 07:09:01 pmDutch newspaper probably syndicated The Sun...

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 07:19:26 pm
content: you are calling giving sick people a good medicine a escalation? do you have a time machine from the 1950's?synthetic cannabinoids are a strong drug. people adopt it because there is a desire fro strong drugs. where do you draw the correlation to something thats been around forever? this is like nixon era thinking

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 08:00:18 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 08, 2018, 06:20:41 pmI not only don't believe it, but I know it to be factually untrue. Not the personal experiences, but the broader picture it's extrapolated to. I don't think this is the right place to discuss any of that though, so I'll leave it at that.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 08:01:47 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 08, 2018, 07:19:26 pmAbsolutely not. Regulated medication is fine.Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 08, 2018, 08:00:18 pmThe broader picture is unpopular. Give it time. Seriously. People tell me time and time again that the extrapolation isn’t valid. NHS publish very good data on this. Go look.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 08:04:45 pm
content: This is an interesting read:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 08:31:59 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 08, 2018, 08:01:47 pmI'm not dealing with popular opinion, but published and peer reviewed facts. Opinions are of no consequence. Yet again, that's a discussion for elsewhere. This all has nothing to do with Musk, a football team stuck in a cave or a submarine.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 02:53:02 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 08, 2018, 07:09:01 pmOff the main topic, but to do with the naked ladies.Back in the day, the "West Australian" newspaper in my hometown was required to divest itself of the evening paper "The Daily News".Sir Larry Lamb from England bought it, & gave it a makeover, with "norks" ( boobs) on page 3, & a generally lightweight stance for news.It went over like a "wrought iron hanglider", & soon disappeared, or in OzSpeak, "went down the gurgler"!

author: Eka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 05:53:42 am
content: Back to electrics of a sort.Quote from: floobydust on September 08, 2018, 05:13:50 pmThink of Tesla's manufacturing being a means to provide cheaper more efficient energy use solutions, and provide the electricity to run them. Some parts they sell like the cars, trucks, some Powerwalls and some Powerpacks. For others they retain ownership and sell the electricity like with some Powerwall, and Powerpack installations. Selling the energy is where the gravy train is. Not in the hardware that uses it. See cars, trucks, and oil.I expect Tesla will succeed. When you have multiple people, corporations, and investment funds willing to invest hundreds of millions or even billions, you have to be doing something right. Tesla is changing the game, and providing cost savings to their customers in most markets they move into.As for the accountant resigning. A company into as many countries and unusual financing like Tesla has, is a very different accounting beast than a normal company. Not only does Tesla have manufacturing, they also generate and sell electricity. They are a utility in many jurisdictions. That alone is an accounting nightmare. They also have projects where specific investors are invested in, but not invested in other projects. As Musk has said, Tesla is really an energy company, not just a car and battery manufacturer. When they sell trucks and charging stations to a company, they will also sell the electricity to run them. When they install a Powerwall or Powerpack system, they will sell the user the electricity to charge it, or if Tesla provided the capital to install it, then sell the electricity off of it to the customer. To top it off, they save their customers money in the process. Users of Powerwalls and Powerpacks have been very happy with them.After the installation of a utility scale Powerpack system with wind farm to charge it in South Australia, utilities are looking at the savings South Australia is getting and want one for themselves. It reduced peaking power plant operation costs by 90%. Peaking power plants are considered a necessary evil by electrical utilities because they have to have them due to the large electricity generation power plants not being able to quickly ramp up and down electrical generation to stay with the fine grained changes in demand. Unfortunately the cost of the electricity generated by peaking power plants is very expensive compared to that generated by the large electricity generation power plants. A utility scale Powerpack system takes over the peaking function, and does it much better. Even if the energy used to charge it is generated by a regular power plant, it will still save the utility money. That is because even after losses during storage and conversion back into AC, the electricity will still cost much less than that generated by a traditional peaking plant.I expect Tesla's biggest problem will be keeping up with demand. They will be a victim of their own success. I expect another giga factory or more being needed in the next decade, and they already have the investors begging to help pay for them, and pay for the Powerwall installations.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 10:59:31 am
content: Quote from: Eka on September 09, 2018, 05:53:42 amYou are forgetting Tesla is a very small player compared to other car manufacturers (and other sectors Elon Musk is active in). Many people have compared Tesla with Apple. Although succesful Apple is nowhere near a market leader with any of their products. Even today Tesla is not the worlds biggest electric car manufacturer when looking at numbers of cars sold. Like Apple Tesla likes to pretend they are god's gift but the reality is they aren't.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 02:49:54 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 09, 2018, 10:59:31 amQuite an understatement!Given that Apple is the largest and arguably the most profitable company in the world, your whole argument really makes no sense.QuoteYou seem to be projecting thoughts/feelings into a corporation which is incapable of such. Perhaps you mean Jobs (or Cook) and Musk? In reality, these companies are made up of thousands of individuals, each with their own unique perspective.From a corporate standpoint, with a goal of growth and increasing shareholder value, both companies have been extremely successful by any standard.(BTW I get no joy from this fact, having sold my Apple stock years agoand never owning TSLA)

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 03:25:43 pm
content: If you just look at the products; the customer experience and right to repair is very similar. I mean that in both good and bad ways.In terms of financial health for the company, unfortunately, it hasn't completely worked out yet though.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 03:29:44 pm
content: do you guys believe the conspiracies against Tesla, I read he suspects (in NYT) that there are basically paid saboteurs in his assembly line for some kind of market reasons?Kinda thought he might be working too many hours when I read that though (120 hours a week is no beueno, I would actually be more concerned about his sleep cycles then drug use). After pulling a few weeks like that he should take a vacation for a month or limit himself to like 25 hours a week for a while at least.https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/business/elon-musk-tesla-employee-sabotage.html

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 04:45:50 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 09, 2018, 03:29:44 pmI spend a lot of time reading and following several well connected people in finance. There is no doubt that there is a very active and vocal group of shorts who have millions of dollars at stake betting on the decline in TSLA. It's not an unreasonable assertion by Musk..I do think TSLA is currently overvalued (as are many companies currently) and Musk himself has admitted as much. It will surely fall down to earth with the coming market crash and overdue recession. Whether it survives as an independent company and goes on to grow and expand in the way Apple did is an open question. IMHO it depends on many things - most of which Musk has no control over. Obviously many people are betting that it will happen - but there is no question that some very active and vocal shorts will do anything in there power to cause the company to fail. They and many others (many here) are very vocal in their disdain for the company, its CEO and their products. In that way they are very much like Apple.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 09:35:40 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on September 09, 2018, 02:49:54 pmIt makes a lot of sense. Not so long ago Apple was about to go under so being highly profitable now doesn't mean the business model is sound. The release of their iPhone as a fashion item was probably more luck than wisdom. And despite being highly profitable Apple still operates in a market dominated by much bigger other players. It doesn't take much to go loose traction and go out of business. Look at Blackberry and Nokia. There are a lot of parallels between Apple, Blackberry, Nokia and Tesla but they are all in a different cycle of their 'lives'.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 10:10:41 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 09, 2018, 09:35:40 pmWhat are you smoking?Apple has the largest market capitalization of ANY COMPANY ON THE PLANET. It was the second ever trillion dollar company (and the first to maintain that value). It is generally considered to be the most profitable and have the soundest financials (based on multiple metrics) of any of the large corporations.Are you still living in the 1990s?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 11:11:25 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on September 09, 2018, 10:10:41 pmShare value doesn't say much because it can all go up in smoke in (almost) an instance. The bottom line still is: Apple only has one product line (mobile devices) which sells well. That is not a good position for any company to be in. Hence Apple's attempts to diversify and enter new markets like music distribution and self driving cars.And you don't have to go back to the 90's. Less than 10 years ago Apple wasn't nearly making as much money as it is today. Results from the past don't predict the results in the future so I really don't care how much money Apple makes or it's share value today. That is history.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 11:18:25 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 09, 2018, 11:11:25 pmYou clearly know nothing about finance and very little about Apple. Claiming that the largest and most financially successful company on the planet has a business model which is not sound is not only factually incorrect but just simply ludicrous. (And FWIW, phone sales only account for 56% of Apple's revenue).QuoteYes, it does make more money and is larger now! That is good. 10 years ago it was still one of the largest, most financially sound companies in the world. The fact that it is making even more money now just shows how ludicrous your assertion that its business model is not sound is.I was a holder of AAPL stock and an active trader of AAPL options 10 years ago. My mistake was thinking it had fulfilled its growth potential 6 years ago.Will Apple forever be the most dominant tech company? - no, of course not. It will fade away at some point - as all large companies eventually do. But currently, and for the past decade, it's business model has proved the most successful of any tech company and has resulted in incredible return for its investors. If I had just held onto my AAPL, I'd be able to retire now...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 11:42:08 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 09, 2018, 11:11:25 pmShare value isn't everything, but it's not that irrelevant either. However, Apple is also the richest company. They're sitting on around 300 billion. That's a stupidly large pile of money. You could literally buy countries for that.That's enough to buy some serious influence until long after you stop being relevant.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 10:55:05 am
content: Apple is also exploiting their size. For every part they need to ask two or more manufacturers. And often there are only a few capable of the volume.Then these manufacturers have to outbid each other in both price and quality. They demand ridiculous yields that have to be renegotiated, often with a lower price. And if you don't make the yield (still deliver faulty parts) you pay for the wrongly assembled products.This is still an enormous guaranteed job for the manufacturer when it's in, but they certainly squeeze it.Tesla is in no way capable of doing this for parts, yet. For people it might work though, because you can then say you work at Tesla. I think Google also does this with people.Lower pay to be able to say that you've worked at Google.Quote from: coppercone2 on September 09, 2018, 03:29:44 pmCorporate espionage is everywhere. Tesla is having explosive growth, they have hired many people. HR will be very busy dealing with all of this. It's inevitable that eventually someone gets in. This happens everywhere eventually. Even faster when you have many enemies, or when the Chinese are interested.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 11:32:45 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 09, 2018, 03:29:44 pmBut it's a real story with at least one known person behind sabotage who know cries whistleblowing.