EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 09:48:20 pm
content: The founder and CEO of Ness Corporation Naz Circosta takes us on a personal tour of the companies impressive worlds class surface mount and through hole manufacturing facility where they produce hundreds of different Ness security and automation products.It's no every day the CEO of a major company has the technical knowledge to take you on such a tour of their own production facilities!He shows the Yamaha SMD/SMT pick and place machines, solder stencil paste machine, flying probe testers, optical vision inspection equipment, custom test jigs, and plastic ultrasonic welding machines. And also talks about buying a $1M Objet 3D printer, and the advantages of genuine high quality Fresnel lenses vs cheap generic ones in PIR sensor performance.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 10:00:48 pm
content: Does anyone else think this video is "nearly unwatchable" because of frame drops?

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 10:02:49 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2014, 10:00:48 pmI much enjoyed the video, had absolutely no issue while viewing.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 10:03:34 pm
content: Give us a chance to watch it first!Edit: Fine here, problem must be at your end ;-)

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 10:18:30 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2014, 10:00:48 pmIt is hard to watch whenever you move the camera. As if the auto focus can't keep up, everything gets blurry.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 10:21:13 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on November 18, 2014, 10:18:30 pmThat is how cameras on automatic mode work in indoors light environments. I've been through this discussion before and don't wish to repeat it again.If it's just motion blur during pans people are complaining about, then that's a non-issue.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 10:31:19 pm
content: It worth keeping. You can add a short text in the beginning recognizing the quality issues so people will know it's not your normal video quality.

author: RobertoLG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 10:31:48 pm
content: the video isn't too bad, it's always nice to see that the guy knows what's he talking about, cool machines

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 10:33:05 pm
content: As impressive as Ness' facility is - I learned a few years go that SMT assembly is well and truly alive and kicking in Aus.When developing some boards for manufacture - I found more than five (Melb local) providers for custom, small-volume runs without looking too hard at all.I'd guess there are probably 20-50 well-equipped - publicly accessible - sub-contract SMT lines in Australia, with maybe 5-10 in this high-end space.--- Impressive, and I can watch them run all day!

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 10:33:30 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2014, 10:21:13 pmCertainly your decision if you don't care. I stopped watching at around 10 minutes into the video. Starting from 8:20 you were moving the camera around like crazy, waving it over the machine, so it could hardly focus at all. After almost two minutes of on and off blur I decided I had enough.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 10:52:00 pm
content: Very informative video.I didn't find the video quality to be an issue.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 11:01:54 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on November 18, 2014, 10:31:19 pmIt is my normal video quality, in fact it's better than my normal video quality because I shot it at 28Mbps 50p, I normally for 17Mbps 25p.It is different and has motion blur because it is hand held and shot indoors and has lots of panning.Most of my lab videos have little or no video panning.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 11:04:53 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on November 18, 2014, 10:33:30 pmFine, your call.I do care, but in these sorts of ad-hock walk-around environments it is better to have the camera on auto and "get what you get".I'm not going to set up the tripod for every shot, pan slowly and carefully, switch video modes, replay to check footage etc all the time while the CEO waits around. That's not cool.If 1% of people don't want to watch it because of motion blur, so be it.

author: eV1Te
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 11:12:58 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on November 18, 2014, 10:33:30 pmThat is interesting, I have the completely opposite opinion, I guess we all have different opinions how video should be shot. For me, videos where the shutter time is short feel jerky and stuttery (like a fast slide show), whereas motion-blur makes movements more fluent and smooth (fools the eye to think that there is real motion). I assumed this was the reason modern computer games have special shaders to mimic motion-blur as seen in a camera.But in the end I think we are much to picky, the only reason we normally do not notice these problems on TV or in movies, is because Hollywood and TV use cuts with several cameras instead of panning just because panning always looks like crap. But this is of course something that is out of the question for an interview on the move like this, especially if you do not have a camera crew. (Dave's normal videos have fixed camera in his lab, hence the lack of blur or stutter)Another big benefit of using long shutter time is the reduced noise since the sensor gets much more light.In my opinion, Dave's videos are definitely in the top 10% of all video bloggers on YouTube quality wise.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 11:24:20 pm
content: Quote from: eV1Te on November 18, 2014, 11:12:58 pmThanks, I do my best in the given time and circumstances.Video quality can always be better, but ultimately it always comes down to the available light.There is only so much light you can practically have in a workable indoors environment like my lab. And when you are on site like this in an indoors environment, you have to make even more compromises that will always results in less than optimal footage (and sound).Those who complain about it and think the solution is easy really have no clue about what is involved.

author: eV1Te
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 11:26:11 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2014, 11:01:54 pmYou probably already know this, but web browsers are usually quite bad at displaying 50-60 fps HD videos, the frame drops someone mentioned might be due to a browser with many other tabs opened at the same time or not using HTML5 since flash is notoriously slow.Also YouTube does not support more than 30p using less than 1080p, (your video was converted to 25p when viewed in 720p)I found myself that 30p or 60p is quite optimal for YouTube, because then all standard quality options get the highest possible frame rate. To bad 30p is an American standard (NTSC) and I generally do not like to conform to their use of numbers/units.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 11:26:39 pm
content: r.e.s.p.e.c.t. for the CEO. An amazing episode

author: eV1Te
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 11:30:02 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2014, 11:24:20 pmI agree, but I still make the same mistake sometimes, however every now and then I do a video on my own and I get reminded how tricky it can be without optimal conditions.Thank you for a very interesting tour around their plant, one of the best down-to-earth CEOs I have ever seen!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 11:33:30 pm
content: Quote from: eV1Te on November 18, 2014, 11:26:11 pmThe video was uploaded in 25p.I will render and upload a 50p version for those bitching, and they will see that motion blur will still exist.QuoteMost of my cameras are PAL, hence 50p or 50p. Only my Sony NEX is 60p.I shot this video in 50p. All of my lab footage is shot in 25p.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 11:40:04 pm
content: Thanks for the video, Dave, it was really interesting to see all that gear.The video quality is pretty good. People complaining about motion blur in hand-held shots trying to catch the moving machine, the person interviewed and whatever else may be around? In one person, talking, single camera? Seriously? Let's get real, shall we?

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 11:46:32 pm
content: Interesting stuff - especially if you've never seen it before.

author: justanothercanuck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 12:57:28 am
content: @34:55 Windows XP with MSE installed, but disabled. Tsk Tsk.

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 01:01:25 am
content: Very nice video - the CEO actually knows his stuff,amazing.On video quality: The motion blur was really distracting. I don't have any experience with pro camcorders, but can you force the ISO to a high-ish level forcing the camera to use a shorter exposure time? It should (... assuming it's not being overly difficult) still do auto-exposure and everything, and all you get is a bit more noise - it'd still work fine in low-light environments.Also, no frame drops to speak of.

author: Bob S
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 01:58:30 am
content: Great job Dave, video quality is never a factor when the subject is interesting.One thing I heard that surprised me was that no cleaning is needed. This goes against what I have learned and request for my boards. In particular I would think the PIRs might have problems due to the high gain and assumed low leakage requirements. Is "no Clean" really that good and acceptable these days? Did I here this right or did I miss something?

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 03:01:31 am
content: That was unreal dave , I could only watch half as I have to watch my data download , good on Ness ..Those machines are unbelievable and don't forget someone has to make the machines ! Go Go Go Yamaha (Oooops were not on a motorcycle forum , Go Yammy anyway)I saw that reel fall over near the start Ha Ha , and the dude posting about motion blurring , please go out and get a life if that's all one can bitch about imo ...

author: NickS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 03:26:44 am
content: Dave I'd be curious to know what they thought about your exploding capacitor mishap and your teardown video.

author: janengelbrecht
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 03:35:43 am
content: really good episodeinteresting to get an insight into the modern production world.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 04:43:01 am
content: There was tangential discussion about cracked capacitors, so there likely was off camera talk about the board.Video was good enough, not much frame dropping just the usual stutter with video at times. The subject matter was very interesting, that they were doing such work in such a small facility was impressive, and the level of automation was leading to very good outgoing quality but they still did 100% assurance on all units.

author: nixfu
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 04:51:27 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on November 19, 2014, 04:47:24 amYeah I agree though. That guy nitpicking about the video is distracting and annoying. Its like that guy in the room that is always complaining about something.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 05:00:32 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on November 19, 2014, 04:43:01 amI'd really like to see the real McCoy, you know there will be part samples as well as a couple boards kicking around. Not many people get to see in a bad-boy box unless they are staff of course. Understandable but I'd really like to see the stuff just the same.

author: aroby
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 05:16:43 am
content: Quote from: ovnr on November 19, 2014, 01:01:25 amWhy would the CEO not know his stuff?? Clearly he used to be somewhat hands on. I can't recall ever meeting a CEO who didn't know how his business works. And I've met a lot.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 05:22:12 am
content: There were a few interesting things in the way they manufacture in that video, but overall I mostly question how an operation like this can survive in a place like Australia. The key issue isn't their production costs. They don't employ many people. Electronics manufacture is all about logistics, and the logistics in Australia must be highly problematic.The Australian component market is so small, by global standards, that most component makers aren't even represented. Those that are can't afford the stockholding needed to fully support JIT manufacturing. Manufacturers must need to hold a lot of stock themselves, and have 100% of their component needs settled well before manufacture commences. That's not usually a problem with the major components, like the big chips, but quite a few changes to minor components frequently occur close to the end of development testing. Someone from manufacturing in Shenzhen would look at that, and be puzzled how you can run a business that way. They are used to pulling in millions of general purpose parts at a few hours notice. They find enough problems just moving production lines inland, where they are still just an overnight freight train ride away from the stocks in Shenzhen. A lot of manufacture has moved back to the coast, despite the high property and labour costs there.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 05:27:26 am
content: Quote from: aroby on November 19, 2014, 05:16:43 amYou must have only had dealings with a narrow range of CEO types. Most wouldn't even recognise most of their production equipment, and this is not necessarily a problem. For example, in a medical devices company the CEO could very reasonably have a medical or an engineering background, but it highly unlikely to have a good understanding of everything in his business.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 05:29:32 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on November 19, 2014, 04:43:01 amI can't see how any dropped frames or stutter could possibly be my video, it must be youtube and/or browser and/or internet.

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 05:53:37 am
content: Interesting video. Always cool to see these kinds of places.I think one of his monitors needs degaussing though.Dave's 'walking around' videos always have far too much motion blur for my liking. Not sure what causes it as some people's videos don't have it anywhere near as bad, but its not worth complaining about when the subject is interesting.

author: EvilGeniusSkis
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 06:11:59 am
content: Quote from: steve30 on November 19, 2014, 05:53:37 amthen why are you complaining?What did Ness have to say about you board Dave?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 07:00:56 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2014, 05:29:32 amThis video does look exceptionally jerky when you are moving around, even when you aren't moving very fast. Something wasn't working at its best that day. You have a couple of other videos this bad, while most are far better. I wonder if that relates to the hardware you used for these particular videos, or something about how it was used?

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 07:39:07 am
content: For those who can't watch the vid due to motion blurr.......are you watching it full screen by any chance?.......It'll be much easier to watch if you make it smaller.For what it's worth.......I didn't find motion blurr a problem at all, I didn't see anything out of the ordinary compared to other wandering cam work I've seen or done myself.A hugely enjoyable video from start to finish.Ian.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 08:42:43 am
content: Quote from: eV1Te on November 18, 2014, 11:12:58 pmI just find it interesting that I can watch Aussie50 videos all day long, and he shoots most of his videos in a shed or other poorly lit places with a mid-range photo camera (Lumix TZ10 I think), yet I cannot watch most of Dave's walkaround videos.Funny you mention motion blur in games, that's the first thing I turn off. I cannot tolerate it.It just feels like the videos went through that Youtube anti-shake filter. I suspect they are recorded with IS on, or the camera is secretly doing some other "motion optimization".

author: Arp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 08:54:34 am
content: Great video!

author: Tandy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 10:48:50 am
content: A couple of suggestions.1. maybe try a monopod so that your movement is on one plane. You don't have to attach the monopod to the camera you can carry it in one hand and just rest the camera on it when you want to keep it steady. That way you don't have to mess with folding a tripod.2. Motion blur can be a result of a low number of i-frames used in the codec. One of the reasons consumer cameras are quite low cost is they use heavy compression so that data can be stored on regular SD Cards or similar media. An i-frame (intra frame) is a full image stored for the frame, to save bandwidth P frames or B frames are used that work a lot like interpolation using a algorithm to fill in the gaps. This doesn't work so well with fast motion. Your camera may have a setting that selects the number of i-frames but most consumer cameras do not. The problem being that the storage media needs to handle much greater bandwidths for the better codec. Ideally you would be better off with a camera that supports an all i-frame format such as AVC-Intra or All I but such cameras and associated media can be expensive.PS for those complaining about the quality, dave is an engineer and entertainer not a film producer. The purpose of his videos are to inform and entertain and that he does very well. He is not trying to win any awards for videographer of the year. He started out with a naff webcam and has gradually improved, no doubt learning about better video techniques, lighting, audio etc as he has gone along. He is a talented engineer and very entertaining, and seems open enough to take useful suggestions on board. So if you know better perhaps it would be better offering him the benefit of your experience instead of complaining I'm sure he will gladly take on board any useful tips that are easily implemented.

author: J.Tax
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 11:36:04 am
content: I realy liked this view inside a Assembly Factory. Currently I'm having a internship at a assembly factory, and it isn't even so large as this one.The way they handle boxes is a very nice system. Its different then what we use at my internship.If you would like to, make more videos about this kind of stuff, visit more factory's inside Australia, and maybe other country's

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 11:57:53 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on November 19, 2014, 04:47:24 amHa Ha Ha Ha , go look in a mirror and say hello "if" you can to mojo ...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 12:20:02 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 19, 2014, 07:00:56 amFor the countless time now:ALL videos cameras do this when you use auto mode in low lighting conditions. Yes indoor light like this is "low light". If I walked outside wiht the camera still recording the motion blur would disappear.Even the 50fps original footage has motion blur, and if I shot it with a 120fps Gopro it would still have motion blur.The only way to void it is to shoot a fixed very high shutter speed, and then you get crap grainy footage instead. Chose which one you hate least.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 12:24:15 pm
content: Quote from: Tandy on November 19, 2014, 10:48:50 amCan peoplepleasestop offering advice on how to fix this. I know precisely what I am doing, I know how to shoot video properly, I do not need any more advice, there are simply compromises made in these shooting situations. I do things for very good reasons I am sick of explaining over and over, many of which you would not understand unless you are in my exact position doing this stuff.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 12:25:56 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on November 19, 2014, 08:42:43 amYes, dynamic IS was turned on.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 12:26:20 pm
content: Well I watched the video all the way through and thoroughly enjoyed it, mainly because I use local contract assemblers over here in Blighty.When I started my first production runs, I tried out China but the quality was awful, primarily because they substituted parts despite them insisting that they wouldn't do that. The culture is to say yes to everything, and then cut corners. They will say they will order the parts from Farnell/Mouser/Digikey/RS as per you BOM, but they won't. They used crappy voltage regulators, with a 25% failure rate, that dumped 5V onto a 1.2V bus, also busting the most expensive parts on the board in the process.They even had the nerve to complain that the connectors didn't fit the board because they'd not ordered the ones I'd specified. (An interesting aside to this is that I warned the Raspberry Pi folks about exactly this behaviour in China, and look what happened to them when their assembler took it upon themselves to substitute RJ45 jacks without magnetics and they had to have 10k+ boards reworked as a result).My first run China run had a 50% fail rate due to their parts substitution. The straw that broke the camel's back was that China shuts down for two weeks during the Chinese new year. When you're looking at your cash flow, and you won't see any boards for at least six weeks, it's time to consider other options.Yes China is cheap, maybe half the cost of a local assembler, but you will pay for it in other ways particularly in low to medium sized runs. If you can afford to have someone you trust working for you in China who will manage the vendor relationship and who understands the culture, and can physically manage the vendor, then it can work. But otherwise I strongly recommend, from my own experiences, that you find a local, personally recommended, assembler where you can look into the whites of their eyes, press the flesh, and have a proper business relationship with.A local manufacturer works better in other ways too, not least that if something isn't right you can jump in your car and resolve the situation, or more frequently organise for parts for quick delivery when the P&P machine goes tits up and sprays the atmosphere with 1,000 unmarked 0402s. You're buggered on that score if your assembler is in China.What I've highlighted here is that it's not at all rare for small to medium scale assembly to take place outside of SE Asia, in fact I'd say it's probably the norm.Make sure any assembler you use is capable of placing your parts. One I tried had a 4 week contracted turnaround, then returned the parts unassembled 4 weeks later saying they couldn't do it because 0402 wouldn't work in their machine. They said they could do it, but failed. That really pissed me off as you can imagine, another cash flow nightmare as well as a bunch of irritated customers. I ended up hand placing that entire run myself, 12,000 parts in total.One final point I'd like to make is that a personally recommended assembler in my experience turned out to be significantly cheaper and more flexible to the assemblers that you find on the internet where you plug in the number of componenents and how many BGAs or fine pitch devices you have.So don't be surprised that there's manufacturing going on outside China, it's much more common than you might think.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 12:33:13 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on November 19, 2014, 08:42:43 amAussie50's video have motion blur just like mine do.And you are not comparing apples to apples, peopleneverdo when it comes to this stuff. It only takes maybe a 50 or 100 lux difference in a scene to make a big difference in the shutter speed the camera chooses in auto mode. That could be enough to be the difference between motion blur or no motion blur at a given sweep speed on a given camera.If I don't use the dynamic IS I get countless complaints about the bouncy footage. I can't win, and quite frankly I'm sick to death about hearing about this stuff

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 12:56:30 pm
content: QuoteOops, Dave goofed this post and edited instead of replied!Not only that, but I'm trying to interview the guy, look at the stuff myself, analyse what they are saying on the fly and subconsciously think about what to ask next, trying to keep personal engagement, keep one eye on the framing and audio levels etc etc.I've got a dozen jobs to do while I'm doing this, and yet people want to me focus on panning slowly and smoothly, setting up shots etc. It's just ludicrous to even suggest that under such circumstances.Unless you have done this, you won't understand that it's just much better all round to whack the camera on auto with IS on and "get what you get".

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 12:57:57 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2014, 12:24:15 pmYou need a 'neck like a jockey's bollox' to be in this You Tube game.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 01:08:38 pm
content: Damn, sorry Simon, I just edited your post instead of quoting and replying to it, wrong buton!No way to recover thatIt's late, I need to sleep.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 01:26:12 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on November 19, 2014, 12:26:20 pmI thought China was a country, not a manufacturer. You dealt with a lousy manufacturer. Why not refer to them, rather than paint 1/5 of the human race with a single brush. There are plenty of good companies in China, just as many in Germany and Japan are bloody awful.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 01:34:10 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2014, 10:00:48 pmNot me.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 01:45:42 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2014, 01:08:38 pmNo problem,The lost bit was roughly as follows.Low light will cause slow shutter speeds ad blurring the same as with still camera's.I once tried to take a photo in our factory and the shutter set to 4s, so I went outside and the shutter set itself to 1/4000s so the outside light was 1000 times the internal light. Like out ears our eyes are not linear and we see little of the huge variation plus have the ability to adapt, a camera sensor is linear which is why the "stop" scale is not linear as it's our interpretation of a linear scale.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 01:48:07 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2014, 12:20:02 pmHave you updated the video on youtube in any way? When I watched it the first time there was no motion blur. There was severe and very unpleasant juddering. When I tried again just now, on the same PC, using all the same software, I see a fairly benign blur as you move around. This is very acceptable.

author: Andlier
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 01:51:41 pm
content: Video is fine, no problem here.One big difference I've seen in terms of quality between different CM's is how they handle the components outside the assembly line. From the video it seemed like they just kept some components at shelves next to the machines? What about humidity-control, baking if a component has been out of its bag for too long etc.? And how is that incorporated in the quality management system?Would also love to know more about the decision to go with flying probes on un-powered boards vs. just needle-test-bed, or both? For boards with an MCU, if they have to program the board anyway later with a connector or test-bed, why not just do that and skip the flying-probe? After AOI, it can't be that many boards that fail on power-up. Surely a board with mcu/firmware in a needle-jig can do a pretty extensive functional test by itself, once it is running code. And how does the flying-probe machine get set up? Do they run a few golden boards through and set some ranges for resistive values between different nets?

author: nixfu
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 01:56:37 pm
content: As a yank, I am very impressed with the Australian electronics industry. Being right next door, it's almost like China has a harder time fooling you than they do us when they are half way round the world.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 01:59:01 pm
content: Quote from: nixfu on November 19, 2014, 01:56:37 pmAs a yank you are probably nearer to China than Australia is.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 02:03:27 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 19, 2014, 01:48:07 pm"severe and very unpleasant juddering" is probably a Youtube/network issue or a local playback issue (were you doing something CPU intensive when you watched it?)

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 02:19:35 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 19, 2014, 02:03:27 pmNope.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 02:44:06 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 19, 2014, 01:26:12 pmYou will find that my experiences dealing with Chinese manufacturing are definitely not unique. It is a fundamental cultural thing. As I stated, you can make it work, but you will need to pay for someone to manage the relationship if you want any reasonable expectation of quality.Similarly, offshoring development to India has a cultural cost as well, there is some similarity in that everything you ask for is met with a "yes" but their understanding of "yes" and mine are very different. In the end you end up employing expensive project managers to manage the offshore technical teams, soyou might as well have it done locally.The outfit I mentioned that said they could do the 0402 boards and then decided they couldn't on the contracted delivery date four weeks later was in the UK, so yes, you are right, their are crap assemblers everywhere. That is why I firmly recommend a personally recommended assembler, and one that you go and see and press the flesh with.I speak as I find, I wonder what your experiences been when offshoring work have been?

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 03:18:21 pm
content: In my experience it's always difficult to deal with external suppliers. Having them far away makes things even more difficult.I find that suppliers rely heavily on the specifications you give them. If you don't specify it, they feel they can use that room to improve their own processes. Use that flash chip that's 0.1c cheaper, change the plastic compound a little, change the welding method a little...I have yet to see any proper specification document for anything that isn't military stuff. And rightly so in my opinion, it takes forever to specify even the most simple product and in most cases it's wasted effort.We had some boards that were randomly crashing, turns out the assembler has used a slightly different memory chip (the previous one was obsolete). Of course the specifications never mentioned the exact characteristics of that memory chip, nor the exact timings used by the processor, just the rough things like interface and size. Luckily it was fixable in software by changing the memory timing a bit. The specification document is now a version number higher and has an added chapter...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 03:30:15 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on November 19, 2014, 02:44:06 pmHow much time have you spent in China, working with the people there, to arrive at that conclusion. If you try engaging anyone too far away to keep a close check on what is happening, don't be too surprised by a bad conclusion.QuoteIf you outsource development to India you get what any reasonable person would expect. Do it on a big scale, employee people, and give them the expectation of a good career in the company, and you can get good results. Employee them without any expectation of anything long term and they'll take the money and offer the minimum in return. Off shore through a third party and you are in the world of "consultancies" which usually ends pretty, even if the work is being done down the road - ask almost anyone who has been involved in a SAP deployment. :-)QuoteNow you are starting to make sense. It doesn't need to be a local assembler, but does need to be someone you know through a trustworthy reference. Its better if you can get good oversight, too, which is often easier with a local assembler.QuoteWhat you have found is a few bad companies, and paint them all in the same way. A huge percentage of the world's electronics is assembled in China. Much of it is now designed there as well. It isn't all bad.I spend a lot my time in China and India, working with a variety of people in different contexts. I have few really bad experiences on the engineering side. Managers can be rather tricky about financial issues quite often, but if you are in the UK you know all about people who won't pay on time. If I sat on the other side of the world, doing things remotely and often with language barriers, I think a lot of my experiences would be bad. You never need anything more than English to do things in India. In China a lot of the best people to deal with will only interact, verbally or in writing, in Chinese. This is true both for direct interaction, and for dealing through automated systems. For example, the PCB maker we use for most quick turn around prototypes don't have a single word of English on their web site, even though it supports the fully automated creation of board making orders, and the uploading of the necessary Gerbers and related files. They just aren't interested in the hassle of dealing with foreigners.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 03:35:23 pm
content: I watched the video this morning and found it fine and did not notice ant jerkiness or blurring so engrossed in the subject that I would not have noticed if Dave cut in pictures of nude women.As for CEO's not knowing anything about the operational or rather the technical side of their business I know several like that, they have bought a ready going business coming from a different background, one ran a holiday hire boat fleet and sold that Thompsons holiday and purchased a food manufacturing machinery company another ran a chain of corner-shop newsagents sold that to a national chain and bought a general engineering fabrication company, neither of them knows any thing about what went on on the shop floor and one of them never even ventures onto the shop floor spends his entire life in the office. The businesses never the less are successful.I was interested to hear about the RF problems of PIR sensors and alarm systems as I knew a radio ham that could not key up every time he was on an industrial estate where he worked due to setting off the alarm systems in the various factories.

author: Codemonkey
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 03:46:14 pm
content: I've got a bit of experience working with subcontract manufacturers of varying sizes, both here in the UK, and in the far east (China and Taiwan).UkI've worked with a few places in the uk, ranging from very small (one pick & place machine, mostly women sat with soldering irons placing components manually). Think small industrial estate unit, bit of a dump inside and quality very variable (in a previous job, they built stuff we didn't have capacity for in house). Through to a bigger much more professional company in my current job. We tend to use these for low volume stuff and quick turnaround prototype runs. They're very capable (most of our stuff is down at 0402 size), and quality is good. Their shop floor is smaller than that shown in the video from Dave, and they only have the one line but other than that pretty much the same sort of stuff. I don't think they have any automated test though.ChinaWe initially produced some of our products with a Taiwanese company who did the manufacturing in China. They had some impressive equipment (Fuji pick & place stuff, not sure about the rest). Workers were mostly low skilled, but they did have some on site R&D and their staff were very helpful. I visited them in Tianjin 4 times over a few years, mostly to commission our test solution and each time they were very welcoming. We had in place a good manufacturing contract which I think was key to ensuring there was no random swapping of components for cheaper alternatives, and our operations team were always on top of any QA issues. ESD precautions were in place and always adhered to when I was there, but I don't think they had an ESD floor.TaiwanWe later moved to a Taiwanese manufacturer who do the manufacturing in Taiwan and their facility is in a different league to the one shown in the video. The facility is massive! I got a tour of the SMT line used to produce our product which was entirely located in a clean room with proper ESD floor. Bunny suits required for all workers, sticky pads on the floor to clean dust off your feet and an air shower on entry. From what I remember they had Hitachi equipment capable of 01005, auto optical inspection after component placement but before reflow (the boards have cans fitted so inspection required before placing the can and reflow soldering the whole thing). They had ovens to bake components before placement, encapsulation molding machines (more on this later), laser markers, 2D barcodes on everything for full tracking, and even a metal sputtering machine.Once populated, the individual boards were de-panelized with a dicing saw, similar to those used for separating semiconductor die from a wafer.They were able to make some quite advanced products such as tiny RF modules (bluetooth, GPS etc). I was shown an example of one module they produced the size of a QFN56 which for all extents & purposes looked like an IC once complete. In reality it consisted of a multilayer substrate (mega thin multilayer pcb) on which were placed and wirebonded multiple IC die (micro, flash & radio), a number of passives (about 12 in the example I was shown), and a crystal. They then used the package molding machine to encapsulate everything and the metal sputtering machine to coat the outside of the encapsulation in thin layers of copper & stainless steel I think. This served as the screening can. I think they said they could do RF stuff up to about 60GHz.Working with them has been an absolute pleasure. All the staff I dealt with both remotely via email and in person (been there 3 times now to their facility near Taichung), have been superb and very competent. They really are experts at what they do and their capabilities world class. They were also incredibly courteous and ensured I was led out of the building quickly when an earthquake struck while I was sat working on our test system which was much appreciated!So, its easy to tar the far east with a bad reputation if your experience is with the tiny sweat shops, but there are companies out there that could definitely teach those in the west a thing or too.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 03:56:51 pm
content: I thought the video was excellent. Considering that it was essentially "live-to-tape" and unrehearsed, I was very impressed with Mr. Circosta's willingness to take Dave through the tour. There were a few spots where the video wasn't really aimed at anything in particular, either Mr. Circosta or the equipment, but then I would imagine that Dave was thinking more about his dialog than about aiming the camera. How many of us (even those of us who do video formally) wouldn't be temporarily distracted in such an exciting place and with such access to the C.E.O.?Yes, there were some "crude" jump-cuts, however given the nature and subject of the video, I found them not troubling in the least. Great work Dave!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 04:06:11 pm
content: @codemonkeyI think essentially you get what you pay for.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 05:04:29 pm
content: What I would say is that from the evidence so far, the good offshore experiences are from those who have had the benefit of a local physical presence in some form or other. This was exactly as I was saying, it can work, but you need local representation, and for smaller scale runs (say <10k units) the cost of paying for someone to do that for you (or doing it yourself) is going to be prohibitively expensive.For my own situation, at the time I had had no formal introduction to contract manufacturing. But I learned a lot, the hard way.My intention is to make others, who have a product they're looking to manufature, aware of the risks that I found when dealing with assemblers, particularly one with language and cultural differences. They might only cost $5 a board when the local guy is quoting you $15, but what is the cost of properly managing that business relationship? If you are lucky enough to be able to pay a visit to an assembler on the other side of the planet, then great, but for a run of say 1,000 boards, knowing what I know now it just wouldn't make financial sense.Personally speaking, I have to say that after my experiences over a couple of months with the parts substitutions, the 50% yield, and the Chinese holidays, I was hours away from completely throwing in the towel and going back to the office job. I could not see myself spending the rest of my life hand placing boards! By complete fluke (another story) I found a local assembler who got me out of a hole and who I've been with ever since, and have assembled tens of thousands of my boards now.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 05:32:48 pm
content: Greetings EEVBees:--Congratulations to DJ on what I consider his most interesting video yet. Dave is asking informed questions a mile a minute and Mr. Circosta is answering them knowledgeably on the jump. Just imagine what would have obtained if a Television Network had attempted this interview. And as an added bonus some long needed moderation has occurred.--Not only does DJ present things clearly and cogently, he seems to be able to find interviewees that can do the same.--Now that I am no longer in danger of being called some kind of "rent boy" for giving praise where it is due, just let me say kudos, I would like another, Sir."Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people."William Claude Dukenfield, W. C. Fields 1880 - 1946Best RegardsClear Ether

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 08:01:10 pm
content: I watched that video thinking "Damm - I wish work would adopt some of that test philosophy"

author: m100
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 08:43:50 pm
content: Interesting video. Couldn't give a rats ass about the image quality during the pans, the content matters more than achieving the ultimate presentation.

author: CrashO
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 09:17:14 pm
content: Quote from: m100 on November 19, 2014, 08:43:50 pmI agree. Great content as this matters more than silkysmooth pans, it's an engineering vBlog, not the Victoria's secret fashion show...

author: Arp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 09:18:32 pm
content: Quote from: CrashO on November 19, 2014, 09:17:14 pm

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 10:17:12 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 19, 2014, 01:48:07 pmYes, I have uploaded the 50fps version of the video and now linked that in.It's very interesting that perhaps there might be a difference here in the way youtube processed and/or delivers this video.The only difference at my end is that the original 50fps was rendered in 25fps just the same as all my videos, and that originally uploaded 25fps version looks fine on my local PC.It also looked fine to me on youtube too.For those interested:25fps:50fps:

author: abaxas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 10:47:08 pm
content: AGHGHAHAHAHAHADave spends his time giving us great quality content, all this bitching about panning,25/50hz and motion blur is irrelevant. Lets not waste his time, when he could better use it giving us even more quality content.More please!

author: RobertoLG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 11:00:35 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2014, 10:17:12 pmThat wasn't necessary(in my opinion), but thanks for the effort anyway

author: BillyD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 11:05:01 pm
content: Really enjoyed the video. I think the content and dialog absolutely trumped any visual issues.Couldn't help laughing at the mysterious bloke in the blue shirt though, constantly lurking around and trying to duck out of sight. All he was missing was the shadesand earpiece!

author: JackOfVA
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 11:22:26 pm
content: Nicely done walk through and I enjoyed it a great deal.The few video hiccups did not at all detract from the content.Excellent job!

author: ozwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 11:40:21 pm
content: Hi Dave,Thanks for the video and the effort you put into all your work.I couldn't wait to get home last night, and watch the video. Sat in the living room, watched on big screen TV, via Apple TV. Nothing wrong with the quality and content. Even my wife sat down and watched parts of it (while making dinner).Great effort on your part and kudos to Ness for being a successful manufacturer here in Australia. Just goes to show, if you want the job done right, you usually need to do it yourself.Looking forward to your next video.Ozwolf

author: encryptededdy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 11:50:32 pm
content: The 50fps video is noticeable smoother when set to 1080p50 mode, however I don't think it's super necessary.I would like to watch future videos in 50fps, as it is notability smoother, however they don't add anything hugely significant to the video, unlike Dave switching from a crappy webcam to a proper camera.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 12:39:40 am
content: Quote from: RobertoLG on November 19, 2014, 11:00:35 pmWell, I was curious to test if youtube was doing something screwy.BTW, shooting and processing 50 or 60fps video is not my usual workflow, and Sony Movie Studio doesn't actually let me output 50 or 60fps in my usual intermediate format I use for all my other videos, so I am forced to use the Sony AVC codec. Almost all of my videos are shot at 25fps.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 12:40:27 am
content: Quote from: encryptededdy on November 19, 2014, 11:50:32 pmPeople talk about seeing this 50fps option in Youtube, but I don't see it?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 12:42:13 am
content: Quote from: SgtRock on November 19, 2014, 05:32:48 pmYes, Bored@Work has been sent to the sin bin for a week.

author: gxti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 01:31:16 am
content: That little extending conveyor bridge is cute. I guess having to walk all the way around the line to load parts into the back of a PnP would get old really fast.

author: KNA
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 06:36:13 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 20, 2014, 12:40:27 amScreen cap on my average adsl in VicHigh quality content that was immersive and flowed naturally, as if we were there ourselves. Nice job!

author: sweesiong78
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 08:08:46 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 20, 2014, 12:40:27 amI like to add another datapoint, I have watched the original 720p 25fps video from start to finish (because the content was so interesting) and rewatched it in 50fps, I can definitely see an improvement in terms of viewing comfort in 50fps whenever the camera pans quickly. Also this might be pyschological but the 50fps looks a little 'sharper'.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 08:26:16 am
content: Quote from: gxti on November 20, 2014, 01:31:16 amI worked in a factory that manufactured 150m long streamers, so the benches (8 of them) were about 160m long. No breaks in the benches, you had to walk around (or crawl under on the oil filled floor dodging all the paraphernalia if desperate). You'd walk 10's of km per day no problem.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 09:15:07 am
content: Really enjoyed this video, good to see home grown manufacturing. As the point was made in the video there's no reason why the electronics industry needs to be so heavily outsourced given the higher and higher level of automation.As for the nits complaining about the video quality it all seemed perfectly fine to me

author: SNGLinks
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 11:27:12 am
content: Quote from: BillyD on November 19, 2014, 11:05:01 pmMaybe he was from the press office making sure nothing was said that shouldn't been said.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 11:59:38 am
content: Just another data point -- on my machine, the 50fps is really noticeably smoother and more life-like. (Really reminded my of a computer game, which makes sense I suppose.) Really very, very nice to watch and stands out from the rest of YouTube.However, if it takes any extra effort and means Dave has less spare time or we miss out on content, I'd vote to stick with the traditional, as nice as 50fps. This channel is all about content and information, not eye candy -- so I'm all for the eye candy, unless it is to the detriment of the quality content (or Dave's patience).In other words, "Me too!"

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 12:49:54 pm
content: I do wish Dave would just let the guy talk in this video without trying to butt in all the time or repeating what he's saying

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 12:57:41 pm
content: Quote from: SteveyG on November 20, 2014, 12:49:54 pmRespectfully disagree. I didn't feel that I was missing out on any interesting info; and on the flip side he asked some very good questions that produced very interesting answers. The interviewer does have to ask questions to ask good questions :-). But hey, subjective.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 01:48:34 pm
content: Greetings EEVBees:--Mr. Jones is not a potted plant or a mere a camera platform. Long deep experience in precisely the subject being discussed, allows him to guide the conversation in a meaningful way. You will notice that the questions are rapid fire, unobtrusive and extremely well received. Just turning on the camera and sitting back would have produced a much inferior interview. As it was, we see that interviewer and interviewee are almost in a Vulcan Mind Meld, and finishing each others sentences, hence the high information density of this particular video.--To change the subject slightly, I noticed the ever trusty Hakko 936s and 888s, hotted up and at the ready for spot repairs. I also noticed that the operator of the PCB parting blades donned a pair of metal fiber gloves before proceeding, and I was wondering just how effective these gloves would be a preventing amputations. It then occurred to me that if the upper and lower blades of the parting machine were electrically isolated from each other, and a DC potential introduced, rotation of the parting blades could be stopped whenever they are shorted, say by the metal fibers in the gloves, so as to lessen injury."During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."Eric Arthur Blair - George Orwell 1903 -1950Best RegardsClear Ether

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 02:12:47 pm
content: Quote from: rs20 on November 20, 2014, 12:57:41 pmTrue, but he's cutting him off mid flow or trying to finish his sentences at times, or even just repeating a bit of what he said. Also just breaking the flow, which you could see in his facial expressions he was starting to get annoyed at a few points.I'm not saying he shouldn't be asking questions, but you could tell the guy was trying to give us some background rather than just pointing out objects.

author: delmadord
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 05:23:17 pm
content: I just watched the video and found out there is absolutely no video problems, great work!

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 06:15:00 pm
content: I also enjoyed watching the video, very interesting subject. No complains about the format.Thumbs up to the CEO, for his openness in showing their plant and process.And.. maybe it's only my impression, but he seemed almost surprised that Dave was able to ask a few 'good questions'

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 06:18:15 pm
content: Quote from: bitwelder on November 20, 2014, 06:15:00 pmMaybe he's interviewed by too many journalists.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 06:23:18 pm
content: Quote from: SgtRock on November 20, 2014, 01:48:34 pmThere were stationary guide blades in front of and behind the rotating blades to prevent anything larger that the board thickness from getting into the pinch area.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 08:22:32 pm
content: No video quality problems, interesting factory tour, no problems with the work of Mr Jones, and if I wanted some PCB assembly work doing I would use these guys in a heartbeat.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 08:47:05 pm
content: Quote from: BillyD on November 19, 2014, 11:05:01 pmPoor guy! He's trying to get his work done and there's this camera all over the place, always where he needs to go!! LOL

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 05:25:37 am
content: Quote from: SgtRock on November 19, 2014, 05:32:48 pmIn bold> one has that in the reverse imo , it actually accused Mr Jones as being capable of such a thing or at least a willing counterpart and that was the real funny bit .And the IRONY , , it being a Critic then when criticised just a smidgin about its criticizing , seems not to like it , Oh the Irony ...Avagoodone .

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 08:11:36 am
content: Quote from: coppice on November 19, 2014, 01:48:07 pmyou got people playing 'fluid' 30 fps console games that drop frames all the time, but those people dont see ityou had people not noticing flicker in old style PC CRT monitors refreshed at 60Hzits called priming, most people wont see shit until you point it to themDave Its funny when you point out poor lightning of a FACTORY FLOOR with shitton of lightsbut hey, I learned not to complain about your blurry pans.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 08:33:10 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on November 21, 2014, 08:11:36 amI suggest you go in there and measure the light level, then compare it with a windowed room.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 01:18:12 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on November 21, 2014, 08:11:36 amQuoteAnd I'd type that one has not seemed to haveLearnedanything whatsoever .. imo of course .

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 01:19:18 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2014, 10:17:12 pmMay be worth mentioning that most media content servers (Telstra, Akamai etc) use a process calledtransactional transcoding- whereby they recode and store the best quality they can serve as a base format, and transcode on-demand, to the immediate user-target format.Higher demand of a particular delivery format means they stay 'higher' in the provider's cache, but nonetheless, the delivery strategy is decided when you press 'play' - based on the provider's instantaneous capacity, your browser headers and player capabilities.

author: encryptededdy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 09:50:42 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 20, 2014, 12:40:27 amYou need to use Chrome or IE11, as it has support for the VP9 video codec used for high frame rate video on youtube.Firefox lacks some codec support for the 60fps video.