Pandaplacer A1 - Desktop Pick And Place Machine - cheap OpenPnP DIY Kit - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Simon1234
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 09:54:12 am
content: Hello,currently I'm looking for a new low cost pick and place machine and sell my oversized Siplace S27 HMSome interesting machines I found:- Neoden YY1- Qihe TVM802B Plus- iTECH PPM-A320VB- SMT330-XBut for the last three P&P machines I couldn't find any reviews or customer videos.Today I also encountered the Pandaplacer A1 - a very cheap OpenPnP based P&P machine - pandaplacer.com.There are servo based feeders available, but don't work with 0402 parts very well.The seller is working on motor based feeders.It has been sold 37 machines at aliexpress so far, but I couldn't find any reviews or user experience about the machine.Maybe someone has the machine and can report experiences about it.Thanks!

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 11:12:51 am
content: Opulo's Lumenpnp may also be worth a lookhttps://opulo.io/products/lumenpnp

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 11:01:47 pm
content: It'll be interesting to see how you feel about them compared to the siplace. You won't get much for it used, and you're switching to much worse feeders and machines. Have you got may feeders for your current machine?

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 05:53:11 am
content: It depends from which angle you see that:# you have lots of space available in the basement:Siplace is better# something breaks at the siplace... good luck# you need spare parts for the siplace... good luck, particular parts might be available well overpriced or available used in an unknown condition# you want to pick and place in an apartmentSmall placers are better# you want to do just a few prototypes in a small labSmall placers are better# need spare parts for such a small placerthey're available in masses for cheapI'm sure siplace overall has a better quality for mid - large quantity than many small placers, but depending on the support behind a small placer a small placer might have much better flexibility.Back then I bought the Mechatronika because it seemed like the communication was okay at the beginning, but those idiots couldn't get their feeders work properly, and their software was substandard.. I jumped in and reverse engineered and wrote my own software for their machine to fix the inflexibility.When I moved to another country I built my own machine (because I didn't want to risk investing in another failure machine, and due to the reverse engineering I knew at least everything Mechatronika knew about pick and place machines), a flexible software can even make a bad machine look good and overcome upbringing issues because it can be made to handle issues properly.Unreliable feeders / positioning? Just make the camera drive over the feeder and adjust the pickup location automatically. For a prototype run this is viable for a production which needs speed not.Feeders are exchangeable on ANY placer unless they use encrypted communication. Intercept the feeder communication translate it to your system and go for it. Bad feeders are just a minor argument for DIY machines, unless there's a commercial company behind it then they have the obligation to fix their shit for the paying customer.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 08:49:20 am
content: Quote from: MR on July 29, 2023, 05:53:11 amAnother approach is to look at the offsets measured by the vision system, and where these are consistent, adjust the pick position to get them to avarage close to zero

author: Simon1234
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 09:38:12 am
content: Quote from: loki42 on July 28, 2023, 11:01:47 pmI know when I would buy a Desktop P&P machine it will be a very big downgrade also in terms of speed and accuracy.The S27 HM is very mature. It places down to 0402 without any problems like any modern machine. I have never tested 0201, an extra sensor is required for this.Yes, I have several S-Feeders (electronic) and I'm considering buying a kit for an OpenPnP machine and using the S-Feeders. All the servo-based feeders or similar don't seem to be any good.One of the reasons I want to buy a smaller machine is because the current 12 segment head configuration (2x) only allows for a component height of 6mm. I could exchange a placement head for one with 6 segments that allows 8.5mm.But it is currently not suitable for larger components and tactile switches (I think they twist).A Siplace F5 HM with a 12 segment placement head and an IC head would be ideal here.Update: specification says a max high of 6mm, which also depends on the height of the nozzle. This means that higher components can also be fitted with special nozzles that are not that high.

author: Simon1234
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 09:41:17 am
content: Quote from: MR on July 29, 2023, 05:53:11 amThose are exactly the reasons I have in mind.Certain spare parts are no longer officially offered. However, some German or Austrian companies replicate parts of the same quality and offer them for sale.There are older machines where it is even more serious, but if the worst comes to the worst, you will always be able to get spare parts. It's just a matter of price.But it becomes difficult with very sensitive components such as X and Y axis scanners or vision systems. In such a situation you can only buy used spare parts.Or you buy a second machine as a spare parts donor.In my case, I am lucky that my machine has been fully serviced and adjusted.The machine needs some space, of course, but that's not the problem in my case. A disadvantage is that you need a screw compressor with a refrigeration dryer. The machine needs 400l/min (officially, but significantly less in normal operation).There would be the possibility of converting the machine to a vacuum pump, but that causes more problems than it brings advantages.In addition, the number of circuit boards to be assembled has dropped significantly, which is why a small machine would be sufficient for me.Quote from: MR on July 29, 2023, 05:53:11 amThat's true.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 01:08:34 pm
content: Quote from: MR on July 29, 2023, 05:53:11 amFeeders are exchangeable? I think it would be a whole lot of work (basically impossible) to get Fuji NXT 2 feeders to work on my UIC machines or the other way round. Even more so UIC feeders on Mycronic machines. They are just a totally different concept / shape / size.For me the ease of loading the feeders, how stable they are, how they handle splicing, how quick they are to reload and how comfortable they are to use / carry oh and how much space they take up are the most important things about a machine.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2023, 02:06:15 am
content: Quote from: loki42 on July 29, 2023, 01:08:34 pmwell I can take just about any feeder and attach them to my machine, maybe I need a different feeder fixture for it but that's it. I can advise to dive a little bit into the CNC corner it makes the pick and place area a little bit easier.

author: Simon1234
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2023, 04:41:10 pm
content: I found a very interesting P&P machine. The feeder concept also seems to be good.But at the moment there is still little information. A lot is in Chinese and the website is very confusing.Everything seems to be in the early stages.Main page:https://alandesign.cn/enTORNADOSMT V2:https://alandesign.cn/en/pages/tornadosmt-v2CleverFeeder:https://alandesign.cn/en/pages/cleverfeeder

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2023, 11:40:24 pm
content: You know for those DIY machines there might be issues with fiducial detection and certain cameras be aware of that, even my shittyMechatronika machine was not able to handle HASL based PCBs their software was so bad as far as I remember that the machine just refused to pick and place the PCB because it always re-checked the fiducials. It's not even guaranteed that "low end" commercial machines can handle that.When telling them to implement a separate PCB lock button in general ... the answer was I want to use the machine for another purpose than it was meant for (lousy excuses). The solution was to wrap some foil around the camera to form a tube which diffused the light properly, no support from that shitty manufacturer back then.If the camera is a little bit too close there's less chance for a diffusion filter to kick in properly.My DIY setup carries the camera relatively far away from the PCB - I don't need any further workarounds for fiducial detection (my software has a separate lock button so I can verify the component location on the PCB before pick and placing).HASL (silver) PCBs just look perfect in the camera with high contrast low brightness settings.

author: CrisErving
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 31, 2023, 05:57:02 am
content: I'm looking at a few machines in the ~$3000 or below range. I'm looking for a tool to mount under 20 parts on several different board designs, in some cases it's only a few parts that are 0.65mm pitch and I just don't want futz around with doing it by hand. These are generally going to be done one board at a time in batches of 20-100, speed is not as important as accuracy and ease of use. The Pandaplacer has almost no documentation, so that's out. The TornadoSMT V2 looks really flimsy. I looked really hard at the LumenPNP, but it just doesn't look like the specs are very good for the money (it it was closer to $1000 I might be a little more inclined to go that way). The SMT802A variants all look reasonably decent, as does the Neodyn YY1 (which has more feeder slots). So, what is the consensus out there for the SMT802A vs. the Neodyn YY1?

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2023, 09:02:40 am
content: Quote from: CrisErving on July 31, 2023, 05:57:02 amWho out there has tried more than 1 of them? My impression from threads on here is all of them are a roll of a dice, you might get a good one, you might get a problematic one. You might get amazing service, you might get the wrong person and ruin the relationship from there. The odds of something being wrong seem pretty high, there's a lot of "X didn't work but they sent me a new one right away". All of the machines have their own quirks and shortcomings the biggest one in your price range is "feeders" but your described usage makes all of it moot. I doubt it matters that much which you choose. The OP however might well be disappointed with whatever they choose, its a MASSIVE step down and these are not simply small SMT machines, they are small crappy ones. Sadly the small non-crappy ones are much more money.

author: DeepLink
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2023, 10:47:59 am
content: Quote from: SMTech on July 31, 2023, 09:02:40 amWhich PnP machines are "small non-crappy"? Can't seem to find any

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2023, 02:18:33 pm
content: Autotronik/Manncorp (although that may have caveats) , TWS, Fritsch, Essemtec all make capable SMT platforms that are smaller than an old Siplace or a current generic Juki/Hanwha. They are also all bigger than the desktop machines. DDM probably want to argue they belong in the list too, I'm less convinced....There is to my knowledge no crossover of the software and build quality of the above and the size and claimed capability of the cheap machines. I suspect such a compromise machine is possible to manufacture but as it stands the closest you get are the chonkier ball screw driven desktop machines or things like the Tronstol A1 which has documented issues on here and was not a success with @Seon in its S1 guise.I think the key lesson from @Seon experiences if you follow them, is if you push that cheaper class of machine anywhere near what it should be capable of on paper it will fail. Throughput, accuracy, workload one or all of those factors will be a problem.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 04, 2023, 04:44:04 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on July 31, 2023, 02:18:33 pmAbsolutely, you just have to be realistic about what they can do. There is still quite a big price and function gap between these low cost DIY kits and the low cost ready to run machines, but in both cases you will likely end up on your own when they break down.@Seon came to the conclusion that these cheaper machines were disposable items, and too much trouble for a business like his who needs to rely on getting product out the door. For ongoing production he bit the bullet and invested the money in his new Juki. That will give him local support for the machine, and at the same time allows him to focus on other stuff without the cost and hassle of getting additional staff thanks to end-to-end automation. I know of other small "CM" companies who run multiple cheap desktop PnPs with success, but they require a lot more hand-holding and thus labour costs will dominate.I have Seon's old Charmhigh T560P4, and after some maintenance it is usable for my workload. I only do occasional small runs with 0603 parts and above, although I will probably try one running of my smaller designs with 0402 on it with a future revision. I've been investing in additional CL feeders for it to make changeover of jobs easier. I am happy to hand place a few parts, and can afford to manually inspect each PCB.My in-house jobs are generally not a rush, but also not big enough to pass onto the CMs I deal with. For my runs of 50-200 PCBs every 2-3 months, the Charmhigh is way better than my old desktop NeoDen TM240A, or hand placement like the good old days...I also now have the NeoDen S1 (aka Tronstol A1) that Seon returned to the local reseller, and who recently who donated it to the local makerspace. I will be "hosting" it in my factory due to space issues at the makerspace, plus the fact very few makers are at the level (or have the need) of running a PnP without a lot of hand holding. Just from initial inspection I see it has a few issues, but I've not yet tried running a job on it. We will be getting some training for it in the near future, and then I'll do some maintenance on it as I learn more. It uses totally custom electric feeders, but thankfully it came with a good complement as I'm pretty sure they'll be unreliable...

author: fpoussin
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 08:28:42 pm
content: I have a pandaplacer that I just finished assembling.Everything was nicely packed and labeled.Documentation is still in progress but assembly and configuration are fully documented.The motion controller is a custom board that runs Marlin.Feeders are also WIP, there have been a couple revisions now. They can feed 0402s with some tuning (because cheap servos linearity isn't great).Their controller is running the MGRL 0816 firmware, which is documented.They basically cost a servo, some plastic filament and fixtures. (screws, a spring...)The author is very helpful and quick to respond.

author: DeepLink
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 12:55:20 pm
content: Quote from: fpoussin on August 31, 2023, 08:28:42 pmDid you 3D print the parts for the feeders yourself?I'm considering the PandaPlacer A1 myself, but as I don't own a 3D printer yet, I was thinking of getting the needed parts printed by JLCPCB (or others)Any comments on the use of the PandaPlacer yet?

author: eflyersteve
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 12:02:32 am
content: I currently have (among other, more capable machines) a TVM802B and a YY1.The TVM802B just works better than the YY1. They YY1 looks nice but I had issues with repeatability and the cover tape peeling mechanism just does not work well and isn't easy to adjust. I've also had issues with the YY1 not fully booting and a few other weird things. Support from Neoden has been very poor unfortunately.The downside to both of them is that you'll have to go over every part smaller than 0805 and possibly reposition them. You will also likely be your own service tech as getting tech support can be troublesome with either as English isn't the representatives native language so explaining things and having them understood (either from them or from me) has been difficult.Best of luck with your decision!

author: PP.ca2
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 06:03:16 am
content: For everyone still interested in this machine, check out the docs for Pandaplacer A1:https://docs.pandaplacer.comYou'll find there full details for assembly and configuration to help with your purchasing decisions.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 11:30:39 pm
content: FYI, I have restored the PP.CA account under the condition that they use their account to support their products and not advertise it.