Is Algebra Necessary? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 02:05:00 am
content: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/opinion/sunday/is-algebra-necessary.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1Instead of lowering the bar, lets just get rid of it all together. I mean, who actually needs math anyways... Right? Clearly, more marketing and political science degrees are the path for regaining America's prosperity.-sj

author: HardBoot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 02:11:31 am
content: NYT's "news" is of equal value to the onion, without being entertaining.

author: timcki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 02:30:23 am
content: I think it is a parenting problem....Instead of saying "Johnny/Janey finish your homework so you can go to the party".....It should be more like my neighbors ( who emigrated to this country for a better life)"Johnny/Janey Finish your Calculus so you can start on your Science, after that you can do your chores.."My neighbors son is in the sixth grade and yes, CALCULUS!

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 03:02:40 am
content: our mighty ohms law requires basic level algebra, and transposition,and now this may not be the case everywhere but is it just me or do all math teachers teach the slow way to transpose for simple fractions?(set any normal values over 1, and shift diagonally)

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 05:21:04 am
content: Idiots these days.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 06:11:44 am
content: Ah, I read the article and it was quite illuminating.The core point made is that American college students, no matter what subject they are studying (be it English literature, history, art, modern languages or whatever) are required to study and pass advanced algebra courses in order to graduate. For someone coming from the British system where such students had no requirement to study mathematics after the age of 16, this aspect of the American educational system appears quite bizarre and ludicrous.A second point touched on, but not explored fully, is that the content of "mathematics" as taught in schools and colleges generally is a poor shadow of actual mathematics. The algebra of math classes is dry and formulaic, devoid of context, and mostly boring. As such, teaching it is for most students a waste of time.The author does argue that mathematics could be taught to non-mathematicians in a more interesting way, especially by considering the history and evolution of mathematics and the people behind it. That would be interesting to mathematicians too.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 06:40:01 am
content: It is a very sneaky piece of writing. An emeritus professor of political science disguising his hate of Math and STEM, using an age-old technique to do so. All I can say is, Dude, the reason you got stupid students is not because your student's brains were occupied by Math, but because they had no brains. Guess why they did chose social science?We all have seen movies where the hero gets beaten. After each hit the villain helps our hero up, straightens our hero's clothes, expresses his sorrow he had to do this, and then hits again. That is the rhetoric technique this professor uses. A hit on STEM and Math, then an "oh yes, I know Math is needed and important, I am soooo sorry I have to do this", then the next hit.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 07:00:28 am
content: There is value in mathematics, but algebra is not mathematics. The general education sphere is universally bad at teaching mathematics, and the whole concept of learning "algebra" exemplifies this.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 11:09:05 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 05, 2012, 06:11:44 am

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 12:39:55 pm
content: Quote from: sonicj on August 05, 2012, 02:05:00 amis the pope catholic ?

author: onlooker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 03:18:24 pm
content: In fact, the solution for kids really having difficulty of learning algebra or math (or any other subject in general) is already in place. It is called SPECIAL EDUCATION (for learning challenged). It just needs properly expanded.I think for most students with efforts, they should have no problems to learn grade school to HS math. Boring is not a good argument, learning needs hard work and discipline.Kids also need to learn that when they grow up, most of the time they do not have the choice to do what they are interested in. Interest can change and also is a learnt trait.It is a shame that a university professor actually proposed something like this. The argument about no-direct-use equals to no-need-to-learn is particularly a false argument not just for math as many comments already argued. It reminds me a old joke: After finishing the 3rd hamburger, a man felt full. Then, he thought he should have just ordered the third one and skip the 1st 2. This professor's logic is at about the same level as this man.

author: bullet308
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 04:11:58 pm
content: Another interpretation: that since math is taught so badly now, perhaps we should give up on the whole idea...All I know is that if I had a better background in math, it would be easier to play at being an electronics design engineer even as an amateur, and that pros make a lot more money than I ever will..More evidence of academic myopia.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 06:14:19 pm
content: He's got some valid points though.If i need surgery i want a doctor that is an expert at that particular surgery , not one that can derive (x2+y2)2but has no clue what is the difference between an artery and a vein...Sorry sir , your liver transplant failed , i swapped two connections, but here is your mathematically correct bill anyway ... please pay before you die ..There is a lot of mathematics that you have to struggle through that you will never encounter back in professional life. Stupid things like learning how to calculate sa square root or cubic root. any 1$ ching-chang-chong calculator can do that. Why do you need to know how to do that by hand ? It's a geek party trick, no more... And don't start on 'if you ever need to code that.. i'm not a coder. i studied electronics. i don't write code. And, on the odd chance i do write code : compilers have those functions or there are libraries. I don't write libraries. I use them. Teach the library writers the maths. I have zero interest in it.I remember an instance where a 'puzzle' was given. You get a sheet of metal and you need to bend it to make an open-side gutter in such a way that it can transport the largest volume of water.Please calculate the optimum bend points. I simply wrote down : bend in semi-cylinder with this radius. When i got 0, i contested that. My answer was perfectly correct. I had an infinite amount of bending points. The real goal was of course to find 2 bending points to make a u-shaped gutter with the largest cross-section, but since the question did not say '2 and only 2 bending points' i had done what any normal person would do : gone for the shape with largest througput. In this case a semicylinder.In the end i got my points as my answer was mathematically correct.i also questioned the maths teacher : look dude , i'm studying electronics ... why do i need to bend sheet metal into gutters ? can you give me the same problem in electronics ? -blank stare- ... and that is another problem in education..... completely out-of-field drab

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 06:27:47 pm
content: Problem is that so many things depend on mathematics ( chip design for sure) and a basic knowledge of how it works is very good to have. At least you should know enough to be able to work through the reasoning of why the higher functions work, and how all those formulae that you learned by rote in physics, chemistry, maths, science, engineering, woodwork and other subjects come about, so that you can apply them correctly, and not use eg Ohm's law to try to work out the volume of a sphere.This is as a guy who sux at maths, but who has at least a glimmering of the WHY? part, and has used some of that Calculus I was taught in real life applications, along with still sometimes using a pencil and paper to do simple maths to keep my rusty skills alive. Helps me to do rough sums like VAT in my head, and to keep a rough tally when out shopping, or to choose best value on pack sizes ( bigger is not always better in many cases BTW).

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 06:42:10 pm
content: I used to hate algebra ... no more.Algebra is useful in electronics only to a certain extent, but not really useful at all if everBut having studied algebra for 5 years ... it certainly helps me to calculate simple equations at lightspeedThat is of course, YMMV.

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 06:44:16 pm
content: My parents attempted to scream mathematics into me when I was younger. I picked up on it but goddamn I still get PTSD from the experience(s). But I must say it was quite a rush to be able to solve an equation for an unknown for the first time. I felt like a whole new reality opened up for me lol.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 06:47:28 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on August 05, 2012, 06:14:19 pmSorry, I don't want a doctor who can't do math touching me with one of those reflex hammers, much less performing surgery. I don't care whether they can do square roots in their head, but if they are incapable of learning basic algebra they can please go do... something where at least they will cause less damage. Also there is a lot of math in medicine. The less important aspects are simple issues like calculating the doses of drugs. I hope they automate as much of that as possible, but not everything is or can be. Far more important is that my doctor needs to be able to read a statistical study about the efficacy of a treatment and then decide whether it is likely to be effective for me. Unfortunately I know all too well that very few doctors are actually capable of this, but I don't consider that a good thing.QuoteI agree that this is stupid and annoying, but it is a tough problem for math teachers. If just give people a page full of equations to solve, they whine that it isn't practical. If you give them simplified word problems to solve, they often deliberately or accidentally solve the wrong problem. This would be fine and dandy if the purpose was to solve that toy problem but doesn't actually demonstrate what they were supposed to be learning. If you give them the full details of a real-world problem it will require extensive domain specific knowledge and require a huge amount of effort to demonstrate only a few small points.The good news is that the students who come up with the smart-ass answers generally know what they are doing, and could solve the intended problem easily, so it is usually fine to just give them the credit, as your teacher did.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 06:52:29 pm
content: Algebra isn't bad. Being good at algebra makes a lot of things easier. Most equations I work with in electronics require algebra. Being good at it makes that easier of course. I don't think being good at calculus is going to make you better at electronics. I think calculus is used as a "filter" in education. The people who don't try in calc don't make it. Those who do try get to go onto greater things and get a degree. If you don't want to do calculus, there's no way you can get a BSEE.

author: onlooker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 06:53:50 pm
content: Education before college is to prepare kids for a wide range of careers. The subject matters to learn are consenses and results of many years of experiences and experiments.It may be ok for a surgeon many years after HS not to remember all the math details learnt in HS . But, do you really want a surgeon who could not learn and pass HS math? I would at least question his general reasoning/logic/memory ability that is important to many aspects of life and it is very relevant to his job as a surgeon too .

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 06:56:41 pm
content: This talk is relevant:Note how the algebra is there, but the algebra is not the focus of the teaching.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 12:10:55 am
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on August 05, 2012, 06:47:28 pmengineering without algebra is like science without religiondepend on your POV. if it isnt then i will say a doctor doesnt need to know all the stuffs in the body except his area of expertise. say if i want to be a gynaecologist, i only need to memorize and master anything related/surrounding to that "part" and be a gynaecologist, i dont need to remember what artery name going into say, the serebrum cortex. savvy?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 12:23:07 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on August 06, 2012, 12:10:55 amSince religion is "belief without verification" and science is "belief only in what can be verified" I don't quite see how this works. If religion gets into science the science becomes a disaster.QuoteYou seem to have a bit of a sex fixation. Why is that?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 12:30:23 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 06, 2012, 12:23:07 ami wish i could reply to this. but the scope of this forum (as i understand it up to today) prohibits me. so no reply/elaboration required/allowednevertheless, i agree with you that when people try to relate science and religion (that the science was never meant to), disasters strike, at least "mentally", esp when people have no real "concept" (or misinformed or brainwashed) of what the "ghostly/spirit" elements stated in a religion.Quote from: IanB on August 06, 2012, 12:23:07 amsorry what is "sex fixation"? and what is wrong with that?if it means "my gender is fixed" then yes, i am a "sex fixation" and i will tend to the "opposite sex fixation" (opposite polarity) as i am, not the "same sex fixation" as i am

author: olsenn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 02:11:49 am
content: QuoteDo you have a degree in electrical engineering? Calculus is ABSOLUTELY essential to most electronics work. How do you determine the small-signal gain of a transistor? You evaluate the derivative of VOUT/VIN at your biasing point. All derivatives and integrals are are divisions and multiplications of functions that vary with time. Since most of what we do in electrical engineering is not DC, this is a very useful tool to have. Why memorize pre-solved equations for every configuration of every problem when you can just derive the solution from first principles.Even vector calculus can be useful if you ever need to do anything with Maxwell's equations etc.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 06:05:09 pm
content: Quote from: olsenn on August 06, 2012, 02:11:49 amYou send it through spice (1) or ADS (2). everything else is impractical and a waste of human time. We got software tools these days that do the tedious work. Computers are built to compute...Now, if you want to design Spice engines or field solvers : go ahead whack your brains out on maths.If you need to design an amplifier circuit you model it in spice and tweak it . then you build it on bench , verify that the methematics is right ( because spice is known to be a big fat liar as it can't accomodate for all variables in the system ) and send it off. Next problem please ....Why do i need to be able to re-do something that has already been done before.I remember all those 'proofs'. prove that this is equal to that ... why do i need to re-do this ? someone already did it. i trust it to be right , can we move on please and not keep doing the same thing over and over ?

author: olsenn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 06:20:16 pm
content: QuoteThen by your logic, algebra isn't required either... calculators already exist that can do that for you! Using simulators isn't the solution; fundimental math skills are irreplacable in engineering, regardless of how much you dislike doing it.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 06:22:06 pm
content: It's funny how algebra is a regular whipping boy. "Why should I learn it if I'll never use it?"Algebra IS useful. But even if it weren't...So what? It's about developing a smart healthy brain. Is everything learned in school useful? I could certainly argue that playing with blocks in Kindergarten was a waste of time, since I don't use blocks as an adult.Waaaaa. Math is hard.Shut up and do it!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 06:23:42 pm
content: Quote from: MikeK on August 06, 2012, 06:22:06 pmActually, math is easy. I never understood why people think it is a difficult subject

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 06:32:11 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 06, 2012, 06:23:42 pmIt's difficult for people who aren't accustomed to trying.

author: mukymuk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 09:54:28 pm
content: BEEP BEEEEEP! Make way for the Broad Generalization Bandwagon!

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 10:16:46 pm
content: Quote from: olsenn on August 06, 2012, 06:20:16 pmNo, by my logic : anything that can not be done using the basic operators +, -, *, /, ^, and log ( for db calcs ) on a 1$ calculator is NOT WORTH doing by hand on a calculator. it is a waste of time. Maths is required. But what is the point of being able to calculate a cubic root by hand , or calculate Sin(0.34) using a sliderule and lookup tables ? the same for doing complex matrix calculations by hand. Learn the principles and applications. Then use that 64 bit machine behind your keyboard for the tedious work. It'll do it over and over again , without protesting and without error ( remember the 'sweeping' of a matrix ? how many times did you get an error because you forgot one cell somewhere. that stuff is boring and tedious. one little distraction and it goes to hell. That's why we have computers.Maths should be taught as 'applied maths' here is a problem : here is a technique we can use to solve this kind of problem , here is how the technique works and here is how you apply it. The 'how it works' bit is nice to know but not mandatory.You do not need to know how an internal combustion engine works to drive from a to b. The same goes for math. When you need to get from a to b you will take the car, train , boat or whatever is suitable. And face it, these days that is a 1$ wingpangpong calculator or Matlab or Spice.It is simply not economical to still do that stuff by hand.Teach the technique and how to apply it. how the 'algorithm' works internally is less relevant. I can't remeber the exact details but Feynman already encountered that in students. they could 'parrot' exactly what was in the course book. when he asked them : what can you tell about the light reflected off the surface fo the water in the bay ) there were only blank stares.... they could repeat the 'algorithm' but could not apply anything.Saly, that is what is lacking in many maths courses. the practical applications of all these beautiful theorems. too much focus is on the algorithm itself , not enough on the applications.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 11:16:41 pm
content: QuoteMuch of Algebra IS "applied maths."I can't imagine of getting anywhere in science, engineering, or business, without a pretty thorough grounding insomeof algebra. Which is not quite the same as saying that what is taught in algebra classes is the right subset, or that it is well taught. The last time I had to do a binomial expansion was helping my son on his HW, and probably the time before that was MY HS homework. Maybe we should just stop thinking that because Johnny is smart, he should get As in both his history and his algebra classes (the article author quotes population that is less than "proficient." So? Is that the same as "failed to complete/pass.")I don't particularly see how the same arguments can't apply equally well to pretty much ANY individual subject.You only have to stop over at thehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-chat/delicious-unconstitutional-water/thread to see some of the ridiculous beliefs that result from the lack of adequate STEM education. "Fluorine is a component of nerve gas and therefore fluoridated water is an evil conspiracy." OMG. California requirements (also quoted) require more hours of Physical Education ("gym") than of math or science, at least through middle school.

author: olsenn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 11:40:52 pm
content: I sort of see what free_electron is trying to say: learn how to do it, but don't actually do it every time... use your calculator, but know how to do it by hand if you ever have to. Furthermore, for some tedious things like applying Simpson's rule to approximate a definite integral, or calculating the fourier coeficients for an equation, you can simply use a calculator/computer for these things, as with finding an integral etc.I agree that this is PROBABLY okay, as long as you know what an integral is and how/when to apply it. If you can't determine the correct equation (beit an integral or whatever) from a word problem, then you haven't learned enough. Anyone can type into a calculator, INT[Sin(2*pi*(t-4)^2)*exp(-t/1.5),t], but in real life the problem is not "find the integral of ...", it is how long will it take to...The advantage of calculus is that it isn't required for everyday things. Algebra is required sometimes just to figure out how much your groceries will cost... it's impractical to have to dig out a calculator for something that you should be able to do in less than ten seconds in your head.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 11:44:09 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on August 06, 2012, 11:16:41 pmThe key thing is that algebra is the formal language that expresses the real concepts you should understand and allows you to describe the problems you are trying to solve.There's an analogy with human languages. You learn French not so you can pass French exams, but so you can converse with French people, read French literature, watch French movies, study French history, and so on.Likewise, algebra is not a goal, it is a means to an end. It is the way you can think about and express mathematical ideas, and the way you can formulate practical and engineering problems and therefore solve them.Imagine doing a workshop class where you spent all the time studying the machines and never got the chance to make anything. It would be horribly boring. But that is how much of mathematics education is today.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 12:16:27 am
content: QuoteHeh. One of my favorite stories that I tell my kids is about the German-born, native-German-speaking young lady in my high school German class, who didn't do particularly better on exams/etc than us struggling Americans. Because a lot of the class WAS "technical aspects" of the language (and of languages in general), which wasn't any easier for a fluent speaker than a non-speaker. Subsequent college experience, where initial years of foreign languages didn't count toward "social science/humanities" requirements, bore this out. One of the reasons that a foreign language is important to an education is that that's where you learn grammar concepts that are difficult to get across (?) in your native language.Algebra is similar. You don't need to know/remember everything taught in an Algebra class, but you sorta need to do a bunch of it just to be able to think in the right way about mathematical expressions.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 12:46:38 am
content: Quote from: westfw on August 07, 2012, 12:16:27 amIsn't that true indeed. In French (and German) classes we learned words like nominative, accusative, dative, present, past, perfect, subjunctive and so on that we never learned in English classes. However, English made a lot more sense after I went through French and German lessons.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 02:08:11 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 06, 2012, 11:44:09 pmThere you go. That is exactly what i meant when i say : teach applied mathematics and do the boring , repetitive stuff by computer.In other words : teach the students how to formulate the problem : convert the problem into an equation. The actual 'calculation' part where the equation is solved ... Leave that part to the machines. They are much more efficient and error-less than us meatbags...My recollection of maths is mindnumbing stuff. Here is a formula. Please calculate the derivative of it.That is machine work... They never explained what the formula was for... 'oh its just an arbitrary puzzle we made up so it is hard to figure out the derivative... ' it has no meaning... -FAIL-

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 03:01:16 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on August 07, 2012, 02:08:11 pmEverywhere in the world- i presume?It's just plain wrong, i just only got the concept of algebra after 2 years, never really knew how to apply them

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2012, 08:00:47 am
content: (My recollection of math in general (and the sciences that used it) is that the "real world problems" were a lot harder for everyone than the rote memorization...)

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2012, 04:27:00 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on August 08, 2012, 08:00:47 amah, yes. and that is another thing that should be taught in schools.i always find those 'word' puzzels funny..train B is scheduled to leave from kortrijk to Antwerp at 8:30 AM with a speed of 80km/h for a trajectory of 67kmtrain B is scheduled to leave from Liege to Antwerp at 6:30 AM with aspeed of 75KM/h for a trajectory of 73Km. which will arrive first.It is mathematically impossible to figure this out, because in real life : Liege is in the french speaking part of the country where the Machinists union is on strike so good luck finding out in which century the train is going to eventually leave (if they can find a locomotive that is not broken ... and if,by then, it just happens to be lunch time... add another 2 hours to the equation) .The trains in the dutch speaking part are invariably late. ( the 8:30 is the 8:30 train , even if it arrives at 9:15 ... the next day ) and some impatient poor sod decided to drive through the gate , got sideswiped by the train and causes a massive accident holding the train up until the police can finish all the paperwork, unsing the two-finger technique, on their old 'royal' typewriter ... ( correcting errors using white-out, and hoping they can find an ink-tape for the damn thing ). Your guess is as good as mine which one will arrive first. And that is if the guys in antwerp haven't decided to remodel the station once again and deviate al trains to boortmeerbeek or some other village 10 km past the sign 'end ofcivilisationbus lines' ... it may very well be impossible to get to antwerp by train. You may be faster to take your bicycle , ride it all the way to Rome , Hitchhike from Rome to Munich , and walk the rest of the way. There's a good chance you will beat both trains.On a more serious note: solving a set of equations for unknowns. sure let's do two equations two unknowns by hand. 3 ? gets tiresome and a bit long to do by hand ... 4 ? send the damn thing through some software. Now let's assume this is a circuit around an opamp ... ": send it through spice. But, teach students that the basic rule with ANY math program is GIGO : Garbage In - Garbage Out. Spice can solve maths equations.... provided the equations make sense !i;ve seen too many budding electronics enhusiasts make an inverting opamp with an opamp in spice ... Gain : 1000. input 1 volt. and spice blurts out : output : 1000 volt... with a 5 volt supply ? that's a freakish opamp you got there dude ....It is far more important to be able to work out what is relevant in a problem , what is not , and how to convert the problem in a formula. The actual 'solving' of the formula ? not interesting.... definately not by hand. that is just pass-time... we have machines to do that tedious work. and they will happily do it over and over again. ( actually there is no happiness involved. It's all about food : as long as you feed the thing electrons it will perform the work ). if you want to tweak a parameter you can simple run it again and see how the system behaves.The key is to understand the problem and to come up with a mathematical equivalent. the solving is then best left to the machine ( unless you are the guy that will write the solving code .... THEN you need to know how that stuff works ). I don't make screwdrivers. i use them.

author: Christopher
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2012, 05:00:26 pm
content: Yes, to an extent. Majority of the stuff you learn in college/uni pertaining to maths will not be used in EE...As long as you can move variables around and things its OK.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2012, 02:48:24 am
content: Oh look, Vihart sounding forth on this subject:(At least to begin with, before going off on all sorts of other meanderings)

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2012, 02:59:12 am
content: Quote from: Christopher on August 08, 2012, 05:00:26 pmSide topic, if you ever need to rearrange the subject of a complicated formula and don't want to do it by hand you can use wolfram alpha widget below.http://www.wolframalpha.com/widgets/gallery/view.jsp?id=4be4308d0f9d17d1da68eea39de9b2ce

author: Architect_1077
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2012, 07:24:17 pm
content: What I don't understand is why there seems to be an apparent generalized backlash against education/educational system in the U.S... Sure, there's always room for improvement, yet some of the claims I've seen (I mean outside of this post) against the educational system are just downright moronic, to say the least. Why don't we all just go back to being cavemen while we're at it?? Sheesh...Back on topic... I can agree with free_electron, the problem isn't so much the content that's being taught, it'showit is being taught. This can be said for other non-electronics related degrees/courses as well.