Shenzhen: The Silicon Valley of Hardware - WIRED Documentary - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 05:08:37 am
content: Not sure if this has been posted or not yet:

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 05:32:34 am
content: That is one of the better series about electronics in Shenzhen, although it focusses too much on a particular type of electronics activity to give the view much of a feel for the overall industry in China.

author: raptor1956
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 11:20:31 pm
content: The US and other western companies that went to China to have things made more cheaply so they could achieve a higher margin will discover again what there fathers discovered when they moved production to Japan for similar reasons. Over time they develop there own engineering capabilities and then go into business as competitors. The US companies that outsourced to Japan the production of TV sets soon found that Sony et al were then making there own TV's and competing against them. And, within 15 years had replaced them.The smart guys that come up with the economic justification for outsourcing were not so smart after all. OTH, when you can eliminate higher paid employees and replace them with much cheaper people you can make a lot of money until they put you out of business. When your time horizon is, at most, next quarter, the eventual demise of your company doesn't matter -- you've made your killing and can get out and let those left deal with the consequences.Strip mining can be applied to people to...Brian

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 11:38:03 pm
content: why do you have to wake up our friends who still dream of china being a communist country where everyone is in absolute poverty? it's best to leave them in that fantasy.QuoteThe story is too much on the not-so-important part of the ShenZheng SV: it focuses on the low-value add part, though I can understand why they picked up that.Two things about ShenZheng that should scare SV:1) the co-mingling of all sorts of technologies: hardware, software, chips, mobile, network, ..... People there understand very well that to make money, they have to work with other vendors. So the exchange of ideas is far more wide spread, expected and accepted than it is in the west.2) the young age of decision makers: this is where most of the decision makers are 20 or 30 something. You go to a meeting and the boss is likely younger than you. they have the power to make decisions on the spot. experience is out, and "newness" is in.the 2nd point was quite scary to me in particular. The first couple times I went to a few industry conferences there and I was absolutely shocked by the young audience. I was expecting then that most of the chinese engineers would be on PIC or AVR of the world and then I ran into a roomful of Chinese at a STM32 conference. The ST rep said that all he did was to go from one chinese city to another chinese city doing those conferences and handing out discovery boards.I knew on that spot that 8-bit is dead. and I knew anyone in a high cost country would have to change their business model to survive.and that was like 10 years ago.SV is still ahead in most areas. It is just that their dominance is shrinking, and pretty fast.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 12:16:16 am
content: Any significant innovations from Shenzhen, or is it mostly about markets trading and manufacturing?Edit: invitations /innovations

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 07:36:33 am
content: Quote from: raptor1956 on October 16, 2016, 11:20:31 pmWhen it comes to the Chinese I really don't worry about my job. The communistic education system kills any kind of self initiative and out-of-box thinking needed for engineering. What I see around me is companies pulling out of China due to lack of engineering skills. Just look at how poor test equipment companies do at writing firmware.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 07:31:46 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 17, 2016, 07:36:33 amTwo points:First, take your assumption as truth that they are not as good but look at the math of population sizeTheir population (1.3b) is larger than twice the EU at 500m. Today, the %(of population)-graduated-college in China is small but growing. %-graduated-college follows the GDP/living standard trend. At China GDP trend today, they will achieve %-graduated-college reaching that of the west in the not-too-distant future.When that happens, raw math will be difficult competing against China. Assume in EU top 25% college-grads are good engineers. China only need the top 9.6% to be better than EU's top 25% for China to have more "good engineers" than EU.Second point: Don't underestimate the Chinese education system.Hard to find real gauge for measurement, but PISA is closest to quantifying education outcome. Finland and Netherlands not withstanding, China is running circles around the rest of us in the "west".China (Shanghai) only did PISA twice but twice they were number 1. Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan consistently score within top 5. Recalling (from my imperfect memory) the last 5 data-available years, Finland is best in Europe but not frequently top 5. Netherlands might have visited the top 5 slot twice. USA/UK has not seen the top 5 slot for decades.Granted, China is not tested nation-wide but selected areas only. So only the small coastal areas are excelling. But keep in mind, their coastal areas is where most of their people are located. Shanghai metro area alone has 34 million. That is bigger than many European nations. Plus the high value of education is deep in the Chinese mindset. So the Shanghai excellence will likely spread. I think we the west we are in denial and we are in truth the ones in deep doo-doo.Supporting references:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_AssessmentYou can look at the BBC summary:http://www.bbc.com/news/business-32608772Math & Scince 20151. Singapore2. Hong Kong3. South Korea4. Japan4. Taiwan6. Finland7. Estonia8. Switzerland9. Netherlands10. Canada11. Poland12. Vietnamhttp://www.bbc.com/news/business-262490422014 Maths top 401. Shanghai (China)2. Singapore3. Hong Kong (China)4. Taiwan5. South Korea6. Macao (China)7. Japan8. Liechtenstein9. Switzerland10. Netherlands11. Estonia12. Finland13. Canada14. Poland15. Belgium16. Germany17. Vietnam18. Austria19. Australia20. Ireland21. Slovenia22. Denmark23. New Zealand24. Czech Republic25. France26. United Kingdom27. Iceland28 Latvia29. Luxembourg30. Norway31. Portugal32. Italy33. Spain34. Russian Federation35. Slovak Republic36. United States37. Lithuania38. Sweden39. Hungary40. Croatia2014 Reading top 401. Shanghai (China)2. Hong Kong (China)3. Singapore4. Japan5. South Korea6. Finland7. Ireland8. Taiwan9. Canada10. Poland11. Estonia12. Liechtenstein13. New Zealand14. Australia15. Netherlands16. Belgium17. Switzerland18. Macao (China)19. Vietnam20. Germany21. France22. Norway23. United Kingdom24. United States25. Denmark26. Czech Republic27. Italy28. Austria29. Latvia30. Hungary31. Spain32. Luxembourg33. Portugal34. Israel35. Croatia36. Sweden37. Iceland38. Slovenia39. Lithuania40. Greece

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 07:59:31 pm
content: OK so the Chinese are good at monkey-see-monkey-do. Engineering takes thinking outside the box along unguided paths which is exactly what the regime doesn't want people to do.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 08:30:47 pm
content: QuoteHow many new, innovative, imaginitive tech products have come out of China?I'm struggling to think of a single one.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 08:58:54 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 17, 2016, 07:59:31 pmnctnico, I understand what you are saying and I agree. But it is not as if the West is any better here. We don't want people to have different ideas either. What goes on in academic will eventually sip into business world. What is going on in academic is political correctness running wild - political correctness is "only the things we agreed with should be considered". That mindset will sip into the business/engineering world - and did. During the rush off the mainframe into the minis... I am sure you can imagine (a real life case): it was politically incorrect to even consider CICS for something new, but instead, it must be on a UNIX mini - even while CICS would be the best.As long as we are complacent, we are at risk. Just because they are not there today doesn't mean they wont be there tomorrow. We just think we are more creative, but how sure are we?Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 17, 2016, 08:30:47 pmHow sure are you that they wont tomorrow?About 15-20 years ago when I was in lower/middle management rank in a fortune 1000 firm. Our divisional head was talking to the division's managers about impending competition from India, he said a lot all of which are bad new. He closed off with, "that said, their entire IT industry today is only 40 million USD. That is not even close to our company-wide IT budget..." Less than 1/2 a decade later, nothing bigger than a floppy disc (in a manner of speaking) was left and all else were out-sourced.Remember, Japan started the same way, so did Korea. They are now challenging or surpassed the USA/Europe in design and development in many fronts. The path China is on is not new. What make them different is scale.Those too sure of themselves are the easiest to defeat...

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 09:02:45 pm
content: Very interesting documentary. Thanks for posting about it.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 09:22:09 pm
content: I ran into two families (well into the 0.1 percentile), both had their kids learning Chinese.Check out the Chinese immersion programs at elite colleges and try to get your kids in. Middlebury for example will reluctantly take your kid, on the condition that you thank them profusely for donsting your 12kusd to them.The poor are poor because they cannot foresee far enough into the future.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 09:47:37 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 17, 2016, 08:58:54 pmTrue but China is lagging far behind on a cultural and political scale. At some point in the documentary there is some discussion about politics and how 'things are made to happen unofficially'. That simply means the governmental 'logistics' aren't even in place to take the next step. Even after China has a democratic government (and probably has fallen apart like the former Soviet Union did) it will take a few generations for the communistic ways to diminish before the Chinese can truly tap into their potential. Just look at how Russia has fallen back into old habbits.@Dannyf: learning Chinese language and culture has nothing to do with engineering skills. I'm pretty sure the Chinese will continue to produce whatever they can make money with and doing business is easier if you speak the language.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 09:56:23 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 17, 2016, 08:30:47 pmI dont think it's that simple. We have different business models. If you're expensive, you have to innovate to give customers a good reason to buy your product. If you're inexpensive, you just need to copy the features and sell your product for less. Being cheaper is always a good reason to buy from you. 15 years ago Huawei blatantly copied Cisco's 2500 and 3600 series routers. Today they (and also ZTE) sell tons of network gear (internet, mobile, DWDM) to all major telcos, carriers and mobile providers around the globe. And this stuff is too complex to be just copied and pasted.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 10:10:51 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 17, 2016, 09:47:37 pmThats an argument I heard several times. But why should they strive for our western world capitalism?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 10:13:33 pm
content: Huawei has 16 R&D centers world wide. Only 3 of them are in China. Appearantly Huawei has taken over other companies in order to gain engineering skills.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 10:16:31 pm
content: Quote from: hammy on October 17, 2016, 10:10:51 pmYou are missing the point. The point is: in an environment where critical thinking is discouraged engineering will never take off.Oh and the Chinese are already much better at capitalism than the western world!

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 10:28:49 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 17, 2016, 10:13:33 pmI'm not aware of any takeover of another major vendor. But the other vendors fired a lot of R&D staff over the years after the dot-com bubble.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 10:31:53 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 17, 2016, 10:16:31 pmSilicon-Valley is also"good at monkey-see-monkey-do."Quote from: nctnico on October 17, 2016, 10:16:31 pmThats undeniable.But I think china is greatly underestimated. They don't fit in our thinking and scheme, but they do it in their own way.Some years in the future, less than 10, they are way ahead. Their middle class is already huge (and growing)! Our middle class is shrinking. And in every economy the middle class is driving the progress.just my two cents

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 11:25:20 pm
content: The thing that scares me most in this country (United States) is not China, but the increasing trend towards anti-intellectualism. This is driven from two fronts: fundamentalist religions and big corporations.The fundamentalist religions are opposed to teaching basic science such as evolution and the big bang theory because they conflict with their religious views. They want to replace the teaching of evolution with their own version of science based on a literal reading of the bible. They want to teach our kids that the universe was created in six days 6000 years ago and that a world-wide flood 4000 years ago destroyed all life on earth except that carried on Noah's ark. (Heck, one group even spent over $100 million to build a full-size replica of the ark and use it as a tourist attraction to promote their views.)Big corporations effectively control government and the media in this country and favor anti-environmentalism and ridiculous military spending. They want a nation of distracted consumers who are too busy buying goods and services they nether need nor can afford to pay attention to what's really going on.Our educational system reflects this on all levels too. Smart kids tend to be outcasts while the popular kids are the jocks and cheerleaders. At many institutions the amount of money spent on science and math education is dwarfed by what's spent on the football program. I guess this doesn't really matter any more because the big corporations are outsourcing the high-tech jobs while simultaneously decrying the lack of home-grown talent. Pot. Kettle. Black.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 11:41:17 pm
content: Thanks for showing me the scammers who make half baked rigols and fake Agilent GPIB adapters.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 11:48:15 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on October 17, 2016, 11:25:20 pmThree sides, the social justice crowd comes with it's own religious truths which can not be denied.Anthropogenic global warming and our ability to make a dent in it with expensive feel good projects. Intellectual and economic ability not being significantly dependent on genetics and haplogroups/races/genders (Chinese forays into eugenics and genetic engineering is especially annoying for them). Systemic racism. The possibility of integrating all cultures in a single nation. Cornucopianism. Etc, etc.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 11:49:56 pm
content: I've heard about this HAX Accelerator program... Turns out there are a lot of these IndieGogo/Kickstarter campaigns that get their start there. But so far, of the ones I've seen they are all failing to deliver on time, and without any obvious improvements. Seems like a make-work project for the local factories.For example take this one which we have been following for the past 2 years in the forums:https://hax.co/companies/lightphone/They've produced what exactly? Late on shipment for a $100 G2 phone (which carriers are likely to not support for much longer) that looks like nothing more than a re-designed Alibaba credit-card slim cell phones which can be had for $15-20 like these:https://www.google.ca/search?q=AIEK+phone&tbm=ischForum link:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/light-phone-on-kickstarter/Their site:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/thelightphone/the-light-phoneAnd by the way, the WIRED video host for the above program Andrew "Bunnie" Haung, presumably of bunnie:studios even tore down one of these "Gongkai" phones and in the forum thread (and link below) you can see comparison photos of the Light Phone prototypes and the one on his page here:http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?page_id=3107I am not too confident in what HAX is putting out, if this is any representative example. But just like they mentioned in the video, even if 9/10 of these HAX innovations fall flat, the 1/10 that do make it and go viral can give them a big return on investment. So the power there is just rapid development of products that you keep throwing at the wall... and hope something sticks!

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:31:31 am
content: Quote from: Marco on October 17, 2016, 11:48:15 pmThe problem is not the fringe groups since they are a relative small portion. Instead the problem is the lack of skills of the majority of the college graduates (here in the USA).How many college graduates don't know who we (USA) gained her independence from? Who was it we were fighting during WWII? Who did we fight during our civil war? Largest planet in our solar system? Approx size of the moon compare to Mars? ... Even Jay Leno made a few youtube videos about that.So, we have a sizable portion of our college grads who doesn't even know how to do the basics, think they are technology-savvy because they use a smart phone, and think they should start off as a VP somewhere. An ungodly number of them ended up living in the parent's basement without job and given up looking.Our house-of-cards is coming down hard.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:55:14 am
content: Quote from: hammy on October 17, 2016, 10:10:51 pmFurthermore, China had a rich and sophisticated culture back when Nctnico's ancestors (and mine) were living in mud huts and banging rocks together for entertainment. There's a very long list of cultural and technological achievements that first saw the light of day in China. For instance the puddling process for Iron was used in China by the beginning of the Han dynasty (202 BCE) and was re-invented in England in 1783 but, hey, what's nearly two millennia for the West to catch up?Just because China went through a 'funny turn' for much of the 20th century doesn't mean that they have lost all the influences that at one time made them the most intellectually sophisticated culture in the world. They kept that culture alive for tens of centuries and I suspect that it is quite possible that it can enjoy a resurgence. They just have to avoid making the mistakes that the West has made and, sadly, on current evidence they seem to be working quite hard at repeating the West's mistakes. (e.g. By embracing the worst aspects of capitalism, China seems to have created a property bubble that looks to burst soon. That is something it would have been easy to avoid [in a centralist command economy] by learning from a little observation of Western economies over the last few decades).

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 04:33:58 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on October 18, 2016, 01:55:14 amChina also invented the Crossbow about 1000-1300 years before such technology was seen in the west. Their Terracotta Army of clay solders show they knew 2000 years ago how to standardize manufacturing and applied assembly line techniques - 2000 years ago.But, that is eons ago. What is important is tomorrow and the days after.Our living standard is defined by our ability to create value. What is valuable in our world will be influenced by the Chinese whether we like it or not. A job that can be out-sourced cheaper means that job have less value - cheaper by definition equals less value; whether we like it or not. We just have to adept, and find another way to create value.Fasten your seat belts. Changes are coming.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 10:19:25 am
content: Quotewhat's the point of enlightening the un-enlightenable?the state of affairs in europe today speaks volume about the effectiveness of "hundreds of years of enlightenment",

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 11:59:34 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on October 18, 2016, 01:55:14 amYou are forgetting the Roman empire which also was technologically very advanced. When in Rome visit the Pantheon and you'll be walking under a 2000 year old unreinforced concrete dome. The fact is that without proper care technology, skill and knowledge are easely lost.I recently watched a documentary about the Chinese wall and it took quite a bit of science to recover the recipe for the cement they used on the wall so they could rebuild parts of it without it falling apart in a couple of decades. Oh, and the secret ingredient turned out to be rice. Also China has seen a fair amount of bloodshed in the past centuries (Dzjengis Khan for example).

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 04:10:04 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 17, 2016, 08:30:47 pmESP8266WS2812CNC3020 and friends

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 04:31:54 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 18, 2016, 11:59:34 amIn case you hadn't noticed, the culture and technology of the Roman Empire is still with us,de factoif notde jure. It's called Western Civilization, with Latin legal terms, many Latinate languages, Senates, citizenship, plumbing,... Roman technology and culture wasn't lost, it was spread across the Western world.The point isn't one of waxing and waning in the fortunes of cultures, it's the assumption by the ignorant that China is some sort of bunch of barbarians with no prior culture or sophistication to build on. Listen to some of the people here and you'd think that an education system was a new thing to the Chinese. There's this pervasive suggestion that China is somehow inferior or third-rate, it is not, it's a culture with a long and proud history of cultural and technological innovation. For those of us who have issues with the direction China's culture has taken in the last half century or so, and the direction that it might take in the future, the implicit power in that history is a worrying thing.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 04:53:56 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on October 18, 2016, 04:31:54 pmWhat worries me the most is the way China, Hong Kong and Singapore's schools keep scoring so well against western schools. I have first hand experience of Hong Kong schools, and indirect experience of southern Chinese schools. The standards are not high. If western schools are worse than this, standards have seriously crashed since the 60s, when I was at school in the UK.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 07:09:30 pm
content: The state school exams are revised every 10/15 years. In other words they are getting dumbed down. In this PC world it is not correct for children to fail exams...

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 07:21:59 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 18, 2016, 04:53:56 pm1) I suspect UK standards have slipped, just based on my experience of what people coming out of school currently know compared to what I and my cohort knew when we left school. In particular they seem to cover a much smaller Maths syllabus than we did. Also, more worryingly, a recent look at some syllabus contents leads me to believe there is a highly doctrinaire, as opposed to fact based, slant to their content. I saw national syllabus points that stated "facts" that ought to be taught that looked a lot more like opinions than facts, and questionable ones at that. Education in the UK has become more political since our day, and by political I mean that there is both more politics surrounding education and more political content in education. I prefer education that teaches people how to think, not what to think.2) The system those league tables are based on, the Programme for International Student Assessment, is structured in such a way it would be very easy for a country that wanted to to 'game' their results. I have no difficulty in believing that 'face saving' would lead to China gaming their results as hard as possible, but equally I have no evidence that they have. What I am sure of is that even a cursory glance at the methodology of the Programme for International Student Assessment leads me to strongly distrust all the results.

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 08:16:23 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 18, 2016, 04:33:58 amNot contradicting your other stuff but there is a slowly developing debate that they imported artisans to train the Chinese Artisans in how to build the army.http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/did-greeks-help-sculpt-chinas-terracotta-warriors-180960771/?no-ist

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 08:46:49 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 17, 2016, 08:30:47 pmI remember the same statements about Japan, back in the early to mid 70s.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 09:02:34 pm
content: WW2 didn't as thoroughly trash Japanese culture as communism did China's.It will be hard for China to advance with just cut-throat commercialism and the "communist" party, especially not as long as the USA exists to leech away people who want a slightly more cultured environment. Xi is trying to pick and chose parts of Confucianism to create more moral citizens, but as long as his party has no cohesive ideal and some honesty I doubt it will inspire anything. Much like our own politicians in the west.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 10:12:50 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 18, 2016, 09:02:34 pmChina was in a pretty terrible statebeforethe communists came to power; that was a major reason they succeeded. Read Peter Fleming's (elder brother of Ian Fleming) "Travels in Tartary" and "Ones's Company" from the 1930s. IIRC many people counted themselves lucky to get one egg per week.Of course 1967 was a terrible grotesque miscalculation with devastatimg consequences.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 10:31:28 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 18, 2016, 08:46:49 pmYes but in those days, software wasn't a significant part of a product. This is an area where the Chinese have yet to show many signs of getting their act together, and it's a lot harder than figuring out how to build hardware

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 10:58:37 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on October 18, 2016, 10:48:30 pmWhich has made me wondering for quite a while now why they never leveraged that into conquering the world like the West Europeans did.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 11:02:06 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 18, 2016, 10:31:28 pmNonsense. And I speak as someone that has been professionally developing both hardware and software since the 70s.Your statement is no more than "famous last words". The Chinese aren't stupid. Inexperienced yes, but not stupid. As I've always told my daughter, inexperience can be cured, whereas stupidity can't.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 11:05:53 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 18, 2016, 10:58:37 pmThat's an interesting question.It is noteworthy that for most of human history (i.e. up until the 17th century) China was the world's largest economy - largely because economic output was limited by muscle power. The West gained an advantage due to The Enlightenment leading to the use of chemical energy, but there's no reason to believe that advantage will last forever.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 11:13:23 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 18, 2016, 11:02:06 pmI think greed is also a problem of the Chinese. They want to do business at any cost. Look at the baby milk scandal, environmental problems and closer to home: test equipment with unfinished/half working firmware. For as long as they choose to make substandard products for short term profits then they'll continue to have quality problems. Can you fix greed and shortsightedness?

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 11:18:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 18, 2016, 10:58:37 pmIt is a cultural difference. China has been following an isolationist policy since ancient times.But it played a dominat role in the world economy between 1100 and 1800. It was a leading trading nation.The British empire adopted the technological, navigational and innovations of China to bypass earlier stages in becoming a world power.QuoteChina is ambitious to become the most powerful country and overtake America...QuoteFor our children it is better to learn mandarin.Cheershammy

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 12:16:02 am
content: From the filmmaker..."....someone in America came up with the intellectual property and spent a long time fighting manufacturers that were creating something that was similar.....That was a great example where I would advise someone not to fight IP protection....it's better to just build a brand around a really great product. Make sure you've got the leading product in the area.When you spend considerable time and effort developing something and 1000 companies copy you in China for a fraction of the cost - the ONLY motivation left for a US designer is to patent and defend the patent. How do you focus on building a brand around a really great product - a leading product - when the market is flooded with copies of your invention? I can't see how this works for true innovation. All I see is a system that keeps innovative people from entering the viper pit.Copied products are called 'Reproductions"..... Hilarious.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 12:26:58 am
content: Apple's patent shenanigans have done almost nothing for them, they got where they are by strength of product and promotion.The Chinese raided our supermarket shelves for genuine article Dutch branded baby formula, they didn't want the reproduction.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 12:35:19 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 18, 2016, 08:46:49 pmAnd when we finally realized that Japan was no joke, we got a lot of crap from Korea that made us laugh. I stopped laughing about them some years ago... I was in China for business 13 years ago. What I experienced there made me realize we would face serious trouble in the future. Not because they was smart, but becuse of the "drive" and willingness to solve problems. Yes, they cut corners, but so did the Japanese and later the Korean until they learnt to do it "our way".

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 12:50:33 am
content: Quote from: tronde on October 19, 2016, 12:35:19 am'Drive' is key and the Chinese have that resource. Here in the USA, there is only a very, very tiny portion of the population that has drive. Mostly what I hear is the minimum wage is too low and everything costs too much. Too many are waiting for corrupt politicians to 'fix it'. Meanwhile - the Chinese are seriously busting a nut to get smarter and faster.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 01:00:20 am
content: The German edition of Make magazin 4/2016 made an interview with the German minister of science and education, Johanna Wanka.She said:"Es ist auch leider die Neugier verloren gegangen, wie etwas funktioniert, und das finde ich schlimm."English translation is something like:"Unfortunately, curiosity about how things work has been lost, and I find that bad."Germany is not a third world country, so I guess we in the West should be a little careful saying we will be superior in the future...We should also consider the fact that many talented young Chinese study abroad. Some of them will return back home.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 03:06:02 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 18, 2016, 04:53:56 pmHaving a kid in high school, I paid very close attention to education related issues. I can say for sure the standard have seriously crashed. We are focusing too much on "feel good" stuff rather than hard education.When each State has it's standard, at least we have some States excelling. Massachusetts (MA) and California (CA) used to have the best standards (not saying they were meeting their own standards). Their kids had the chance of being better. Now we have central planing - Common Core, which will ensure no one excels. It was called "Race to the top" re-brand when it rolled out. Perhaps the nick name "race to the bottom" had something to do with re-branding. Compared to TIMSS (Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study), Common Core is dangerously inadequate.Eleven States just took the financial penalty and withdrawn from Common Core. In Massachusetts, there was to be a ballot this November to leave common core. However, the ballot didn't make it to voting because of court ruling on some technicalities. Hopefully, Common Core will be history very soon not just for MA, but for all of the USA.Quote from: rx8pilot on October 19, 2016, 12:50:33 amNot only do most of our (USA) kids lack drive, they also lack self-responsibility, lack self-esteem, lack ambition, and lack the awareness of the competition around them. I know 3 recent college graduates with absolutely no ambition in work or in career. Their ambition is in travel, smart phone, and showoff to their buddies they are now visiting such and such place. Their career goal is only as much as the cost of the next airline ticket or the cost of the next smart phone.I think it is high time we redo college loan and federal aid. Not base on need alone, but instead focus on probability of success. Success criteria should include "can this kid support himself/herself majoring inthis!"That said, some kids (not the majority) are busting their nuts to get smarter and faster - I know a few my self. Unfortunately, not the majority.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 03:37:03 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on October 19, 2016, 12:50:33 amFrom what I read, the Chinese govt is reaching a record high every year in the world, by executing their corrupted officials and politicians with death penalty.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 04:59:42 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 19, 2016, 03:06:02 amHow so? AFAICS acceleration/grade skipping and AP classes were the main US method for the gifted to excel, to me it seems much more common in the US than many other nations with supposedly high education standards. I think you got it right too, getting them through the basics fast (ie. high shool and bachelor's) will help the gifted more than trying to keep them entertained with extra classes as you effectively hold them back.Has common core made acceleration more difficult?QuoteReally? I think the common core math curriculum is too advanced for a comprehensive education. Now of course the whole concept of comprehensive high school curricula is a bit retarded, but I don't see how making it more advanced could make them adequate. Good for the colleges who can cut some maths out of their curriculum I guess, but even more out of touch with the needs of the non gifted.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 05:05:32 am
content: When i do my research of a subject using IEEE papers, it is practically garanteed it was written by Chinese authors or co-authors. The University of Toronto and University of Waterloo in Canada Computer Science programs are dominated by Chinese students, bright and with high grades. With Chinese excelling in academic records it is beyond my understanding why so much junk products come out of China. There seems to be a disconnect between thinking and doing abilities.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 05:23:56 am
content: How often do you do a literary search for older papers on the same topic?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 05:26:30 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 17, 2016, 07:31:46 pmThat's an unfair comparison, they are a more intelligent race.https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 10:26:09 am
content: Quoteby that particular measure. Whether that particular measure is the right measure or unbiased measure can be debated.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 10:32:01 am
content: QuoteTeachers and highly paid administrators are a key voting block for a certain party. People like Elizabeth Warren (paid $750K/yr for 9months of non value-add work at her university job) will make sure that the average taxpayers continue to struggle to support the nice jobs that the college professors have so they can research into new ways to screw the poor tax payers.College loans and federal aids for education is a modern day enslavery of our young and our poor, for the benefits of the rich and elite. The kind of reverse robinhood that is a hallmark of this "fairness" driven society.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 11:05:28 am
content: "standard have seriously crashed"There are two schools / colleges in the us. The "feel good" trend has seriously degraded education for an average student in a typical school or college. No doubt about that.However, in elite schools (both private and good public schools), the AP classes offered during the senior year are seriously advanced vs. Back when I was in highschool (I'm a highschool drop out).Schools like Dearborn or choate also follow this bifurcation. Students with drive can receive a great education while student without can receive good grades.From timing perspective, too much is cramped into the senior year so it can be struggle.The situation is similar at college level but more extreme.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 11:11:26 am
content: Such a system creates a sad dynamic. Education is the best tool to create upward mobility. But for low income families, they don't understand how important to keep their kids in school, or they live in such an environment where it is impossible to keep their kids in school.Poor education offered to those kids becomes a tool to perpetuate poverty, to create a permanent underclass in a society.Yet, no one is talking about the waste of a massive scale of our most precious resource: a human mind.As a staunch opponent of race based AA, I'm a staunch supporter of an AA program that is based on social economic status. If a kid from a struggle family in the inner city had the same score as my kids do, he or she has more potential and I don't mind paying for his or her education.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 12:13:04 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 19, 2016, 05:05:32 amNo, no disconnect there. China has about 1.3 billion people. Some of them are really smart, and will excel in academics. Alot of the rest will do what they can to stay alive and improve their lives.Read some Chinese history. You will find centuries with really crazy emperors. You will find a lot of disaster and hunger. And you will find Mao and his Graet Leap and Culture revolution. This has made them aware thay can't expect tomorrow to be better than today. If you had this buried deep in your own history, you would probably grab what's available today instead of taking it easy and wait for something even better tomorrow. As things calm down and stabilise, they will most likely adopt to a business culture more like win-win than the zero-sum that is more or less pre-dominat today.Today's China is a young nation. You will not find many pepole with higher education older than about 60 years old. A lot of knowledge and experience got lost during the Mao era.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 01:28:37 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 19, 2016, 05:05:32 amEngineers don't make the best things they can. They make what their employers and customers want. There is a close relationship between the development of Walmart and the development of modern China. Walmart wants a LOT of cheap junk, so an entire generation of Chinese engineers have trained in the art of making the cheapest thing they can, regardless of the quality of the result. There's a lot of first class engineering in China, but the market for cheap and nasty junk is so big its what you mostly see.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 01:50:52 pm
content: "You will not find many pepole with higher education older than about 60 years old"Depending on your definition of "many" but they crank out close to 10 million new college graduates every year and that production is accelerating.China beats out the us in total college enrollment. And while stats are sketch, ibsusoect that they beat out the us in stem enrollment and graduates as well.Likely they beat out Europe on those two measures as well.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 01:53:24 pm
content: "t is beyond my understanding why so much junk products come out of China."Because westerners love cheap junks.Whenever there is a demand, there will be a supply.

author: CraigHB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 02:21:34 pm
content: China's industrial goal is to make the cheapest products. They're really good at making things cheaply and they're pretty much taking over the world's industry that way. That's their strategy, undercut the next guy. The Chinese government also keeps their exchange rate low to further advance that goal. The strategy is working brilliantly. So if engineers are directed to build something as cheaply as possible, they design what they are asked to. Not all of their industry is like that. It is mostly, but I have seen decent products originate from China.For domestic companies it's all about the bottom line. Consumers are mainly driven by cost and companies are mainly driven by profit margin. It's capitalism and short sighted thinking. As mentioned earlier companies export production to China to reduce overhead and increase profit. Then they're put out of business some time later by the Chinese industrial machine. Not very smart for these domestic companies in terms of self-preservation, but all they care about is the next quarterly report.Problem is once one competitor exports production to China the others have to follow to compete. Everyone ends up in China. That will be the case until a new cheaper labor market emerges. I think at some point what happened to Japan will also happen to China. When it's no longer cheaper to produce things in China capitalists will find another cheap labor market to exploit.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 03:00:36 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 19, 2016, 04:59:42 amI'm in the position of having known quite a large number of children who were labelled as 'gifted' - i.e. outstanding intelligence - in the UK and having known them from childhood quite some way into adulthood. The ones who followed a fairly normal educational route, proceeding at the same rate as similarly aged students, turned into much better balanced adults than the ones who went down the accelerated route (skipping years in school, going to university at 16 etc). Social development takes time, no matter how intelligent you are, and those who were forced into a educational cohort that was significantly older then themselves suffered socially as a result, sometimes catastrophically.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 03:26:39 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 19, 2016, 05:23:56 amNot often because i do not want obsolete information.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 04:05:42 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on October 19, 2016, 03:00:36 pmI will agree with that. There is no known way to accelerate social development - and no need. Personally, my performance in school was dismal yet I have conquered numerous careers and businesses by way of drive and constant self-education. I learn in my own weird way and school was always a terrible experience. Most adults thought I did not care or had no interest, but that is not true. Early on, I was labeled as gifted because I did very well on placement tests. Some thought I was bored and should skip a grade to keep my interest up - that would have been a disaster since my social development was lagging most of my class mates. So thankful that did not happen. I believe that gave me a normal adulthood.While I am always dismayed and upset at blatant copy cats, I see the the Chinese people as a whole have a drive to move up. Now that the world has effectively financed their ultra-fast manufacturing - all they need now is creative designers and engineers to make true originals. That is scary to me. As a designer and engineer - I have no financially practical way to produce what I design here. My only viable business option is to make it in China and then I have to worry about it being copied anyone as my IP is likely traded amongst the community. I am not sure I could possibly design fast enough to keep up with that. Maybe my solution is to sell designs outright and move on to the next thing? Be a pure designer and don't bother with manufacture and sales.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 04:21:57 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 19, 2016, 03:26:39 pmThe problem with that attitude is that in many cases the "new information" is simply apoor"recapitulation" of information in the primary sources.Too often academic's productivity is measured by weight, not quality. (Hence the damnable concept of "the least publishable unit", and the damaging changing of terminology without bothering to inform the reader.)

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 04:45:25 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on October 19, 2016, 03:00:36 pmNowadays there is the problem that the modern tertiary education system giving little room for error. In the old days a gifted student who got lazy in secondary education could spend a few years rediscovering the ability to put in effort, room increasingly eliminated.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 09:27:45 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 19, 2016, 04:59:42 amFirst, your question "Has common core made acceleration more difficult?"Yes because it gives schools the excuse not to do more. Further, Common Core is both less comprehensive and slower. It slows kids down because some of the requirements are pushed back.For example, according to Pioneer Institute (research paper #65, Common Core Standard): "Overall, Common Core's preparation for Algebra 1 falls a year or two behind the standards in California and high achieving nations." I don't have permission to upload the 60 page report, you can search for them. This is but one of many examples.That said, I do not promote the idea of skipping grades. It causes two problems in my view: (a) that you did great in addition/subtraction last year doesn't mean you can skip learning multiply/division this year, and (b) upon skipping a grade, students often turn from begin leaders to being followers due to the more mature classmates a year older than the grade skipper.Instead, I like more comprehensive classes. A great example is (AP) Calculus AB verses (AP) Calculus BC. Both covers almost the same subjects but BC is far more comprehensive than the AB sequence. I prefer a firm foundation more than a wimpy foundation faster.Quote from: Marco on October 19, 2016, 04:59:42 amYes, really - compare TIMSS side by side with MA/CA and Common Core side-by-side topic by topic, TIMSS A+ countries teaches more topics and teaches them sooner. The math curriculum doesn't even come close to being competitive let alone advanced. Following the standard at its pace, the student would barely get Algebra II done let alone pre-Calc or Calculus.For the examples below, I use Massachusetts(MA)/California(CA) old standards as they were higher than other States. Again, this is not to say they met their own standard. So don't need to argue regarding actual level reached.(a) Major topics grade 4 to grade 8TIMSS A+: 16 - 22MA:/CA: 16-21Common Core*: 7-15(b) Slow pace, for example:TIMSS A+, MA/CA's:finishlearning of addition and subtraction for numbers of any size by 3rd grade, multiplication on by 4th grade and division by 5th grade.Common Core*: Student learn up to 3 digits addition and subtraction, 2 digit multiplication/subtraction. Student are not expected to learn the multiplication table to 100.*I am using the initial (2010) Common Core standard that States wanting funding must pass legislation to support. That in my layman's view is the legally binding one.Edit: (added and removed again)I've said enough about education. I touched on that because some of us are so full of ourselves thinking we are so much smarter. I want to at least inject the idea that we may not be as hot as we think. In fact, I think we are quite behind the 8-ball.

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 10:13:57 pm
content: China can manufacture anything. From the cheapest Walmart junk demanded by the Western consumer, to high-end Keithley instruments, airbus components or pebble-bed nuclear reactors.If they can manage to keep a lid on the housing/asset bubble, and avoid a Japanese 'lost-decade' collapse, nothing will stop them.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 10:25:28 pm
content: Quote from: julian1 on October 19, 2016, 10:13:57 pmThey too are subjected to complacency.These last decade or two, China was hungry. People are/were hard driving and ambitious. We don't know that if the attribute that lead to the climb would stay once their living standard gets near parity with "the West". They may well fall into being too comfortable and forgot the hard-work that help them stay up.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 10:25:54 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 19, 2016, 09:27:45 pmTo me it seems they are either ethnically non diverse and/or don't have comprehensive education.Singapore is probably closest to the US, but the vast majority is still Chinese ethnicity and their education is non comprehensive. Japan's senior years (like Finland's) are voluntary and selective, making life a little easier for them to make a senior curriculum on top of the ethnic homogeneity.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 10:48:53 pm
content: Quote from: CraigHB on October 19, 2016, 02:21:34 pmIf they increase the exchange rate, they will pay less for raw materials. The cost of raw materials in a product are usually much higher than the cost of Chinese labour. If they increase the exchange rate enough, you can end up with an even cheaper product...

author: CM800
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 11:17:19 pm
content: This kind of thing really worrys me in terms of china & the future.I'm 20, beginning to get into electronics design more seriously as a job... am I barking up the wrong tree? Am I about to have no viable future career / healthy pay-check because the next Generation of ultra-performing chinese students will take every oppertunity I can get my hands on?What can I do about it or am I going to have no job options in 20 years when I'm 40?

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 11:22:11 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 19, 2016, 10:25:54 pmForgive me, I am lost!How does lack of ethnic diversity relates to (or results in) a less comprehensive education? I don't see ethnic diversity and comprehensiveness of education has anything to do with each other at all.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 12:22:16 am
content: Quote from: CM800 on October 19, 2016, 11:17:19 pm20 year career is a long time. It is a tall order to have a "safe career" for 20 years. Even if China doesn't exist, disruptive technology can destroy your career just as well.Is China an impending thread? The answer is: "it doesn't matter!"If it is not China, it could be India or anywhere else. So assume the industry will have someone upending it - more than once in that 20 years. While enjoying the fruit of success today, don't overlook getting ready to deal with disruption that will occur tomorrow. Assume it will happen, from someone, somewhere.Read the job ads monthly or quarterly. It will show you the next best thing. Side benefit, it may also tell you about the danger you may be in. (I saw an ad from a company my friend worked for. They were looking for someone with experience along the line of what my friend did, with specific language skills and one who doesn't mind travel "staying in XXXX for extended period..." I told him good likelihood his job is being outsourced... he didn't believe me, but less than a year later...)Easy to say, hard to do:Knowingthat any specific valuable career will have a life time shorter than desire. Stay with the times - make sure that you are up-to-date with your knowledge constantly, and watch the market constantly. Re-engineer yourself as needed.Even harder to do: Don't hang-on too long. Sometimes, by getting better, one can stay on longer (be the last to be laid-off/let go). Instead, find your next job before your current job's expiration becomes imminent. When you still have a paying job, you have value to an employer. When you don't, you don't. Things get at lot harder when the rug is already out from under you.The book "Competing for the Future" talks about how a corporation should deal with it. The same strategies apply to individuals. (Re) developing core competency and discern changes before it hits you. Good book to read.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 12:52:58 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 19, 2016, 11:22:11 pmIt results in a poorer fit for a comprehensive curriculum because of the generally wider IQ distribution.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 01:05:10 am
content: Quote from: Marco on October 20, 2016, 12:52:58 amIf you're implying that a more ethnically diverse population implies a wider IQ distribution then that sounds like racist bullshit to me.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 01:14:27 am
content: "Comprehensive" refers to graduating everybody, and the precept that "everyone can learn". It isn't about the breadth of the curriculum, but much to the contrary. [Look up "comprehensive school" in your dictionary and note how different its meaning from the root word.]Several comments have centered around the perceived narrowness of Eastern culture and education, and their lack of creativity. Can they quantify that? How would you start?I would make a different comparison. The US has 4.0 practicing lawyers per 1,000 population, one of the highest in the world. In China, the best data I could find puts the corresponding prevalence at 0.09. Which country do you think has a more dynamic economy?

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 01:39:38 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on October 20, 2016, 01:05:10 amNo, it's the simple truth. No matter how small the influence of race on IQ, there being none is close to impossible. So it will widen it.If it makes you feel better, I'm perfectly willing to admit that the more homogeneous cultural attitude towards education in the families of the kids helps and it might be the overriding factor (although I don't believe it is in the US). But don't ask me to believe in systemic racism.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 03:48:54 am
content: Almost every reader on this forum will agree that if a German was adopted by Chinese parent and grew up in Shenzhen: he would study like the Chinese, and grown up to do exactly the same thing the other Chinese are doing. So in general we believe culture is far more important than race.Another evidence is the Chinese immigrants in the USA,on average, the first generation almost universally do well in school. The second generation less so. By the third generation, they are like everyone else in terms of academics.Silicon Valley used to have a certain culture. The magic there exceeded my ability to describe them, but I do know it whenever I was in Silicon Valley. My fear is not what the Chinese are doing, but instead, what are WE doing. It seems that the Silicon Valley magic is gone. Like what was a forest is now a large field with just a few California Red Wood (giant) trees. And these "giant trees" are increasing rely on something called H1B or out sourced altogether.How are WE fostering our next innovation? Do we even have an ecosystem to support innovation? Otherwise, it is not going to be fun for the developed nations.

author: CraigHB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 07:52:54 am
content: I've read that H1B is kind of dead anymore. For anyone that doesn't know what that is, it's the importation of labor from overseas. I know companies are still doing it, but not to the point they once were. Evidently the cultural barrier causes problems not justified by the cost savings in labor.As far as competing with China industrially it can't be done product for product. It takes the creation of new products to stay ahead. Still production often goes to China right away, but engineering and management remain domestic until a product becomes mature. That provides at least some creation of local revenue and jobs.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 10:02:49 am
content: Quotethey are busy adopting AA to employment.Quotea great question. Something you will never hear the politicians debating about. they are busy trying to figure out who's a man and who's a woman and which bathroom the confused should use.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 10:14:24 am
content: Quote from: CraigHB on October 20, 2016, 07:52:54 amThe demand exceeds the quota.http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/12/technology/h1b-cap-visa-fy-2017/

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 10:29:48 am
content: "What can I do about it or am I going to have no job options in 20 years when I'm 40?"That's a very difficult and personal question for anyone to answer.First of all, if the Chinese are good, be better. That means finding something that you care about or enjoy doing.There are always things that needs to be done locally: management, marketing, most services jobs, politics, etc. They cannot be done efficiently from far away.Then there is relativism: you don't need to outrun the Chinese to survive. You just need to outrun the slowest of your fellow countrymen to survive.Those are just some examples and I'm sure you can think up a few more. No need to worry about something so far out, as long as you position yourself well today.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 10:44:45 am
content: Quote from: rubenvann on October 20, 2016, 10:27:16 amIt worries me too. However, it didn't originate in the US; it is more widespread. TV isn't the dominant factor, although it certainly reflects and amplifies the attitude.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 11:10:10 am
content: "The anti-intellectualism in the west bothers me very much too"There are two kinds of anti intellectualism.1. Anti common sense: where people reject status quo for the sake of anti status quo, or going against the norm. That's what you see in the videos.2. Anti elitism: where people refuse to take what's being jammed down their throats by the ruling elite and the media. People refuse to stop thinking and be governed . you see that in brexit, in Columbia, across most of Europe and in the us as well.Anti elitism is democracy at its best. If 50 years of failures aren't enough to wake up voters, what else will?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 12:40:37 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 20, 2016, 01:39:38 amThere is *no* evidence that race has an effect on IQ. To suggest otherwise is good old fashioned dyed-in-the-wool racism.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 12:48:56 pm
content: Quote from: rubenvann on October 20, 2016, 11:36:23 am [Fx: voice of Raj from the Big Bang Theory] "And you know what? Ittastedbetter too."

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 03:14:42 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on October 20, 2016, 12:40:37 pmThere is the simple crude brain volume, that can be construed as evidence. Also brain surface area, but if you try hard enough you can find some statistics which you can construe as evidence to support the theory that it's caused by nurture instead of nature.That's the nature of evidence, it only implies and it can also mislead. Unfortunately in the real world proof is impossible. So we butt heads about the strength of the evidence. To imply there is simply no evidence on my side is simply insanity. The insane don't butt heads, they chop heads. In the bleeding heart liberal's case with the metaphorical sword of the word "racist".

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 03:15:33 pm
content: Quote from: rubenvann on October 20, 2016, 01:08:07 pmThere's a correlation for being American, Black and being shot by the police - that does not imply anything about being Blackper se. No matter how you try to frame it asreasonable soundingany implication that some racial group is innately intellectually inferior or superior is false and no reputable, peer reviewed, research has ever supported the idea.

author: CraigHB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 04:36:59 pm
content: The difference is cultural, not that some race is inherently smarter than another. Culture in the US tends to promote a level of self-entitlement which opposes intellectual achievement. Other cultures promote a more dedicated and goal oriented attitude which is why you see better performance.No matter the anti-intellectualism, there's still plenty of very smart Americans doing groundbreaking things in science and engineering. When someone has a love of science or engineering cultural attitude is not going to stop them from doing what they are interested in doing. American culture does not reward intellectual achievement the way it does other non-intellectual pursuits. Though it would certainly be better if society rewarded it.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 04:53:25 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 20, 2016, 10:44:45 amI agree with the degeneration of the "bite size" problem.I think was Modern Technology, Social Media and Texting. As "smart phone" usage increased, more and more are "typing" by using the small touch screen. A short essay (say 100 words) would exceed the patience of most. Last I check is 80 character for text message. The MMS allows more but is limiting. As short attention span spread, complex ideas become rare.I have a suspicion. I think if one is to compare attention span between areas of "good cell-phone coverage" vs "bad to no coverage", you would see a polarization of views. Further, I think "no cell area" would have people with longer attention span and thus more capable of dealing with complex ideas.

author: raptor1956
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 08:05:24 pm
content: Short attention span is a widespread problem that didn't begin yesterday but has gotten worse year-over-year. In another forum I follow that deals with video it's real common to get folks respond with criticism if a video last more than a few minutes no matter the content or quality. I saw a video someone posted that cut from scene to scene more than once per second and continued that way and after about 25 seconds, as I was about to get motion sickness, I had to quit watching it.There no way this isn't wiring our brains.Brian

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 10:23:01 pm
content: Quote from: raptor1956 on October 20, 2016, 08:05:24 pmShort attention spans are not a problem--they're merely the rantings of the psychological profession attempting to

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 10:46:37 pm
content: "There is *no* evidence that race has an effect on IQ."Equating absence of evidence to evidence of absence is probably not logically sound.I tend to think that different ethnicities took different routes to evolution , and that would suggest that our biologic evolution may have adanved differently.Unless there is evidence to the contrary, I would think that there is likely differences in human biology for different groups of people.To me, that is science (more precisely, scientific conjecture) to recognize our differences than to mask them off for fear of being labeled a racist.We are different. That doesn't make one more superior or inferior to another.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 12:22:53 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 20, 2016, 04:53:25 pmThis is not new. Jane M. Healy described it in"Endangered Minds: Why Children Don't Think And What We Can Do About It"first published in 1991.https://www.amazon.com/Endangered-Minds-Children-Think-About/dp/0684856204

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 12:29:38 am
content: Quote from: raptor1956 on October 20, 2016, 08:05:24 pmtl;dr

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 09:39:00 am
content: Quote from: rubenvann on October 21, 2016, 08:38:24 amYou are confusing your left with your right.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 11:46:01 am
content: "you're quickly labelled as a racist or nazi. "Brcause thats exactly whst the nazis do: assasibate the chartacter of thr messenger." In the end, I think it is Trump making a fool out of himself which has driven most voters away from him."Trump has many faults and is far from being the perfect candidate.But he is not corrupt, and wants to reform DC and return the power to the people. On that alone, he needs to be empowered.The ruling elitists don't understand trump because they don't understand the people. They are in DC strictly to line up their pockets. They cannot care less about ordinary peoples struggle. Wikileaks laid that Barr for all willing to see.Herr is an example: Obamas mother in law is getting paid involuntarily by the taxpayers for a 160k usd per year pension until her death (then with survival benefits) for having babysitter his two kids over the last 8 years, for traveling all over the global in style on taxpayer dimes, for being served gourmet meals any time of the day, for being protected by the secrete service 24x7, ...Ask yourself which part of that sounds like a "public servant"?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 01:53:10 pm
content: China's Manufacturers Now Producing Copies Before Original Products Are Even Launched:https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20161019/08195235836/chinas-manufacturers-now-producing-copies-before-original-products-are-even-launched.shtmlHas anyone seen Batteroos or Batterizers yet?

author: Kalvin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 02:00:09 pm
content: Quote from: madires on October 21, 2016, 01:53:10 pmMaybe they copy only those designs that actually work?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 03:27:57 pm
content: Quote from: rubenvann on October 21, 2016, 11:54:20 amThat's and the fact that he promotes socialism and increased government control of our lives. It may seems reasonable approach for you but others have different view of the government role in our lives.Quote from: rubenvann on October 21, 2016, 11:54:20 amI agree, 'naive' is a wrong term in this context, 'sucker' is more appropriate, just like the people of Troy.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 03:58:06 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 21, 2016, 03:27:57 pmSo, what's your choice? The current Republican agenda calls for far more control of people's lives. it puzzles me that American libertarians group themselves with the Republicans. They have almost nothing in common.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 06:01:17 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 21, 2016, 03:58:06 pmOur current choice is between Johnson, Stein, Trump, Clinton and Esteala La Riva (these are the names that appear on the balot I got), and each one of us evaluates which one he/she prefers, based on our political views, goals and priorities.As for the Republicans voters, I don't know if you know, but in their last primaries they nominated an independent. Many democrat voters also tried to do that and failed.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 09:18:43 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 21, 2016, 03:58:06 pmAmerican politics is complex. Since you show a Chinese flag in your profile and likely not aware of the intricacies, allow me to be presumptuous and side track for a moment to share with you what I have learned.Democratgeneral wants government to domore.Republicantraditionally supportssmallgovernment.Libertarianssupportsminimalgovernment. If you are for minimalist (Libertarian), small (Republicans) is thus more preferable than a big (Democrat).You said "current Republican agenda calls for far more control of people's lives". "Controlling people's live" would not be small government. It is against the core of republican views which is to get government out of people's life.Thebig fight really is not Republicanism vs Democrat. It is (Trump) Constitutionalism+Nationalism vs (Clinton) Globalism+Socialism. Trump doesn't seem to mind big government and Clinton wants big government."Constitutionalist" generally aligns with the Libertarians and Republicans. A Constitutionalist wantsstraight adherence to the Constitution. The US Constitution enumerates (explicitly list) powers given to the Federal Government. All other (not enumerated) powers are reserved to the States."Constitutionalist" therefore is generally not aligned with big-government. For example, if you want everyone not to smoke (as a smoker, I say not-smoking is a good thing). A Constitutionalist would ask is that one of the enumerated power the States ceded to the Feds? If not, it cannot be a federal issue and should be left to the States. For a big-government person, that would be very inconvenient. It means instead of getting one law passed at the federal level, it needs 50 laws passed in 50 different State houses.So, "what's your choice?"

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 09:25:25 pm
content: "That's and the fact that he promotes socialism"No doubt on that.The difference however between sanders and Clinton however is fundamental: sanders seemed to genuinely believe what he preached, and wanted to do something for his base. I may not agree with his prescription but I understand his perspective.Clinton is a polar opposite of that.With that said, sanders talked a good game on campaign disclosure but did his best to delay his own disclosure until he dropped out of the race.Once he did, this senator in poverty quickly and quietly bought a beach front propety, his 3rd.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 09:29:32 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 21, 2016, 09:18:43 pmIf you look at the long list of theocratically based elements in the current Republican agenda, they are certainly trying to massively control people's lives. They just say the opposite to play to the crowd.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 10:11:51 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 21, 2016, 09:25:25 pmSanders activity supports and endorses a demonstrably corrupt politician. So much for being honest. I didn't hear much from him about the recent wikileaks revelations of Hillary's corruptions, some against his own campaign. He is pathetic.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 11:16:32 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 21, 2016, 10:11:51 pmI did not agree with much of Sanders platform, but I respected him. After he decided to stand by Clinton - no respect at all whatsoever.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 11:20:58 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 21, 2016, 09:29:32 pmThere will always be loud-mouths in any party. They are not representative of the majority within their party. The "go-to" document would be the Republican Party Platform. The big "religion-based" guys weredefeatedas nominee anyhow. So, it is an indication that Nationalism+Constitutionalism are more important than theocratic stuff.I suspect I know the theocratic stuff you are referring to, but discussing them here is probably not a good thing. Keep in mind, advocating elimination permissive federal law (where the Constitution had never given federal government such power) and/thus sending back to the States is not the same as passing laws limiting the permissiveness.PM me and I would be glad to chat about them. I don't want to discuss them here. It distracts too far from electronics.