Is There Life After Engineering? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 01:25:20 pm
content: For some reason in Australia, there are fewer older engineers and technicians around at my age (mid 50's) who are still hands-on developers and hackers. I went to an IBM reunion about a year ago and I noticed I was the only bloke still into hardware/firmware development. Everyone else had moved on - either moved to software or got out of the industry all together to do something entirely different like wine making. Some of them were highly talented people.One engineer I worked with loved figures - simple maths, so he enjoyed doing what most engineers don't like such as BOM costings and quotes for example. After IBM, he bailed out of engineering completely and got a second degree in accounting and then did his CPA. He became the CFO of a highly successful private company and owns 10% of it. He gets 10% of the company net profits every year (serious money) plus a big salary. He has more money than he knows what to do with. He said to me the best thing he ever did was get out of electronics and there was no way he could make so much money being an engineer of any discipline. Even so, I thought, "Good luck to you, but I have am happy staying as an engineer". On the other hand I thought he could retire tomorrow (he is only about 45) and do whatever he wanted to. I don't have that choice.Are there stories others have of those who bailed out of electronics and did really well or made a big mistake leaving the industry?Given the choice, would you work on in electronics no matter what, or abandon ship and do something else if you could make more money?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 01:42:35 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 08, 2014, 01:25:20 pmYou'll only ever hear the success stories...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 01:44:56 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 08, 2014, 01:25:20 pmOnly possible to know in hindsight after making the jump.The same reason why youneversee any of those how to get rich/success books written by people before they become successful.

author: jhalar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 03:25:27 am
content: Around 6 years after I finished my EE degree in Australia (1996) I left my EE job and moved into IT.The area of network and comms engineering was more interesting at the time and I went for it.Started around the same pay but IT payed more after 3-4 years into the IT job.Haven't looked back since. There were times I wished I could go back to EE.

author: TVman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 03:27:38 am
content: I would guess Dave is about 46...................This was only a guess!

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 06:40:13 am
content: I regret not getting out of computers earlier than I did and learning something else. Had I done so, the employment options would be better than they are (non existent) for someone my age (61).Even if there were computer employment opportunities where I live, I'm not sure I'd like to work with computers again but don't have anything else to fall back on.The moderator gig doesn't pay that well

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 09:15:20 am
content: I've gone from engineering to computer science via running a small company with two others and I've not made much money but I have had a lot of fun.There are exceptions, but generally the choice seems to be between remaining technical and enjoying your work, or foregoing the technical detail and challenges and instead becoming a manager or an entrepreneur.Being successful in terms of becoming senior in a big company or running your own successful small company I think comes down to a skill set that goes against the grain of many technical people (myself included). The people I've observed doing well are those that sell themselves/their idea/their product mainly by exaggeration and self-confidence and perhaps a less than perfect regard for the precise truth.I have a great regard for Bill Gates and his charitable work, but how he started Microsoft is a case in point. He sold the idea to IBM that he could produce an OS and then purchased one that wasn't properly developed yet and undercut Digital Research's CP/M and the rest is history. CP/M was at the time a technically superior solution but that didn't matter.Steve Jobs was a brilliant man but from what I've read he wasn't a particular nice one nor a technical one.Hewlett and Packard were exceptions to this, but rare ones.

author: blackice504
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 02:20:52 pm
content: Please i hope no one takes this the wrong way, but i have a feeling that it's hard to build anything in Australia as so many of our stores sell the same stuff, or incomplete stock i can think of many times over where i go to a shop with a list of parts go to that section find nearly everything and one or two critical parts that are just not there, i really wish that was different but since coles and woolies own everything i don't think that's going to change, so i would say frustration? "fun fact i work in many fields of I.T but i hate to order online, something about looking, touching smelling what you buying especially with EE". < maybe i should do more online shopping.... at lease jaycar and wes have not been taken over by coles or woolies then we would be stuffed for projects.It was a "fluke" i found Dave on youtube as i honestly thought where the hell is everyone, i only have 1 contact that is DIY sparky that i know in Sydney."old Tafe teacher should give him a call"strange thing is i grown up in Castle Hill, and Dave Lives in Baulkham Hills, Just a walk down older Northern Road yet never met, point is who knows maybe they are in the next suburb.All the other Sparky DiY's i know are from overseas.but don't feel bad in I.T its far worse i can name 3 friends that are in Australia the rest all moved overseas this could be the case with Sparky's but i doubt that as E.E should be in high demand.....well at leased higher then I.T in Australia especially with the NBN shame that is going on..maybe we should organize a big EE meet or BBQ or classic bringa plate?but then again for me at leased it could be because i am a big Maori "aussie born" guy so most people might be scared lol......

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 02:46:06 pm
content: Quote from: jpb on May 09, 2014, 09:15:20 amIn essence I've done that. I've gone from a technical job to pretty much being a technical "entertainer". There are pros and cons as always.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 02:55:26 pm
content: Quote from: jpb on May 09, 2014, 09:15:20 amWorth watching the movie Pirates of Silicon Valley.Gates has now amassed $120 BILLION in wealth. No-one is "worth" that amount. He is making money faster than he can give it away. Jobs was full of loot, but he discovered he could not take it with him. Gates still lacks any formal education - something his money cannot buy.Steve Wozniak was the brilliant one, who deserved his wealth. The world does not celebrate technical whizzes like Woz, nor the engineers who created Apple products, and nor the battery hens at Foxconn; they are more attracted toartists like celebrities and slick salesmen like Jobs and Gates.HP was once a good company... until it spun off its test equipment division, merged with a third rate company called Compaq, and hired Carly Fiorina.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 03:02:25 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 09, 2014, 02:55:26 pmHe's done pretty well in the fame stakes (even with him trying to stay away form it), but I know what you are saying.QuoteIf you are saying that Gates is just a slick salesman, then you don't know Gates. Not only was he technically the smartest guy in almost any room, he was also one of the worlds most cunning and ruthless businessmen.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 03:04:56 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 09, 2014, 02:55:26 pmI'm always amazed at what it takes to give away that much money. They need also 1200 employees to do it!

author: Legion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 03:35:02 pm
content: Quote from: jpb on May 09, 2014, 09:15:20 amThis seems to be a common pattern in technical/skilled trade jobs. The first time I heard something like that was from my dad talking about how he became a carpenter. Someone needed a deck and he said he could do it, but in reality he'd never done anything like it before. He went on to be a successful carpenter. My first gig as a software developer happened because I lied and said I knew how to make web apps. I've now been a developer for 10 years. I was a data entry clerk before. Point is, I've heard/experienced this many times before and I almost see it as a rite of passage at this point.

author: krivx
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 04:20:50 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 09, 2014, 03:02:25 pmNo one can deny these skills

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 04:45:18 pm
content: +1 Bill Gates, he is a true TitanNow if only the homebrew computer club didn't steal his Altair basic and made copies to piss him off... the world might be different.

author: Dongulus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 04:52:35 pm
content: Quote from: Legion on May 09, 2014, 03:35:02 pmI'm interested to hear how you pulled that one off.

author: Dongulus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 04:54:39 pm
content: Quote from: krivx on May 09, 2014, 04:20:50 pmThat's the sort of skill that turns a man into a billionaire.

author: Legion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 05:06:04 pm
content: Quote from: Dongulus on May 09, 2014, 04:52:35 pmAfter stating that I could do it, I was told I'd start the project in 2 weeks. I went to the library and got one of those "Teach Yourself ASP 3.0 in 21 Days". I was nervous about my ability to pull it off since it was a good opportunity and I didn't want to blow it. So I built the app at home while working through the book. By the time the two weeks had passed I'd already built it at home. This way I didn't have to worry about figuring out the code at work and could instead figure out the vagaries of deploying an application in an enterprise environment, something I couldn't figure out at home. Everything worked out and I ended up becoming a .NET developer.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 06:13:00 pm
content: Quote from: Dongulus on May 09, 2014, 04:54:39 pmIf only Riker hadn't settled on the "Riker" method, he could have been a rich man as well.

author: Dongulus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 10:14:38 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on May 09, 2014, 06:13:00 pmWell, Riker became a captain. I think that fact and his mastery of sitting are no small coincidence.

author: Dinsdale
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 07:47:36 am
content: My career in electronics ended in 2003 when the company literally picked up and moved to India.I worked in GIS for 7 years (after 2 years of training), laid off from that and retired.Now I'm messing around with micros and refreshing my analog, sensor, and motor knowledge. I feel like I'm backwhere I belong, I missed working in development so much.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 10:20:40 am
content: There is a saying that I learned, while living in the USA:"If you can not make it, Fake it"Well, I have seen it many times successfully implemented, but also I have seen people fail at it miserably.One guy that studied engineering with me in Germany, was not very good at it and probably should never have studied it.But he now made it to the highest ranks in a good size German company and makes more money than he can ever spend.This is called the "peter principle"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_PrincipleThe Peter Principle is a concept in management theory in which the selection of a candidate for a position is based on their performance in their current role rather than on their abilities relevant to the intended role. It is named after Laurence J. Peter who co-authored the humorous 1969 book The Peter Principle: Why Things Always Go Wrong with Raymond Hull. The authors suggest that people will tend to be promoted until they reach their "position of incompetence".For me, I had jobs in small and large companies and at one time, I could not stand stupid corporate decisions anymore and started on my own and never looked back. It was the best thing I could have done and I am still highly involved with engineering and lab work.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 12:47:54 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on May 10, 2014, 10:20:40 amStupid corporate decisions? In 1998, IBM Australia decided to confiscate about $40K (back then) of my retirement funds when they sold me and hundreds of others off to a start-up company. It was pretty mean in anyone's language. Coincidentally IBM lost a $350K per annum contract at a company I later worked at. Coincidentally, IBM has not been considered for any services or hardware at any company I have worked at since. All coincidence, of course.Running your own business has pitfalls (like having to be a salesman, doing mountains of paperwork and more worry), but you get rewarded accordingly. Generally good electronics and software contractors can earn a lot more for less hours of work than employees, often leading to a better work/life balance. Additionally there are nice tax breaks for contractors that employees are not entitled to. In Australia, some companies exploit the fact you are on a fixed salary - very long hours at no added cost to the employer, whereas contractors get paid for the hours they put in.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 04:10:43 pm
content: Big companies often forget that pissing of the little private customer, often costs then the big corporate contract...

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 04:26:28 pm
content: These days, and for a while now, corporations care only for one thing and that is: "Shareholder Value"We live in a world, where in general they do not care about their employees or their customers.Eventually this system must fail.

author: abaxas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 05:22:48 pm
content: I diverted from electronics to computer science due to a year out 'in industry'. The rampant ego of the so called engineers was enough to put me off that career for life. Then saw the same thing happen with computers.You are worth what the market thinks you are, nothing more, nothing less. IE most EEs are worth less than a person who cleans toilets, only because that job cant be done elsewhere.Sad, but true.

author: Legion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 06:50:36 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 10, 2014, 12:47:54 pmVery true. I started my career as a contractor and the advantages were immediately apparent. Since then I've refused any permanent positions. Depending on where you live, your marginal tax rate is so much lower as a contractor and so many of the things you'd have to pay for as a permanent employee are tax write offs for a contractor.You're right about the hours too. It always amazes me how many salaried employees are willing to sacrifice their personal time to work for the company for free. I've only worked in large organizations, and in that context it just doesn't make sense. In my first year I saw a lady who had worked her whole life at this company. She had sacrificed everything, never married, no kids. She bled company colors. She was in her 50s and they decided to package her out. She begged them to let her keep working since it was all she had. Eventually they found her an alternate position, but then they just laid her off again 6 months later.After I saw that I determined to stay contract. I find the terms much clearer, there's no expectation of working for free. If they want you to work 16 hour days that fine, but they have to pay for 16 hours. Contract is definitely the way to go.

author: Slow Poke
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 04:15:05 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 09, 2014, 03:02:25 pmI've found surviving entrepreneurs have two traits:Dedication to the taskNeed for control

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 04:53:45 am
content: Quote from: madshaman on May 09, 2014, 04:45:18 pmWhat I recall from event of time was: IBM was fighting an anti-trust case and they therefore want the IBMPC's OS developed outside the company. After the 1st choice turned them down, a relatively no-name company was selected.This no-name company didn't have an OS to sell, so they brought one from Seattle Computer Products to modify and sold to IBM as the PCDOS, and MSDOS was born as a non-IBM version of PC DOS.With OS2 Presentation Manager, the so call "Windows" was suppose to be merely bridging the gap. Windows "was supposed" to be the bike with the training wheels as folks learn to do real jobs with OS2 Presentation Manager while learning GUI with Windows. (Yes, I heard that directly from IBM folks when I took a trip down to Austin to see some of their products. Yes, I heard the same from from Microsoft when we brought in MS folks and IBM folks to set up in house training so we can begin riding those bikes with training wheels.)Then, of course, somehow, Windows always managed to get the real features first while Presentation Manager wait and wait for the "real" heavy lifting version....When IBM woke up, it was "game over" already. With PCDOS, they merely handed over the keys, but with Presentation Manager, they totally got locked out of the room.******While Microsoft purchased almost everything major that they sold, from Harvard Graphics(Power Point) to Microsoft C (green leaf C) to Fox Pro, to MS SQL (Sybase) to ...They are not entirely without new ideas. What I do credit Microsoft and Bill Gates with is this concept:Microsoft pioneered the concept that if a bug doesn't reveal itself within the life expectancy of the product, it doesn't matter. Furthermore, the life expectancy of the product can be greatly reduce by ever more rapidly deploying newer versions -- the bug will be irrelevant sooner because there are new bugs in the way that everyone think is more important. Beside, with some good marketing, most users buy the new version before they learned the older one they've had is unreliable crap.This is an important insight into user behavior, and I must say I didn't understand it then. Most users are please to trade for the "latest and greatest" crap as long as there is adequate marketing to support and promote such wastefulness. This is where John Sculley (Pepsi) brought new ideas and marketing to the table. I think without his insight and leadership, Microsoft would not have been as successful a merchandising company as they were and as they are.Yeah, I said wastefulness: I bet you, since MS-Word 3.1, business letters (across all software using companies) had not improve a darn bit 10 upgrades later to MS-Office 20xx. People are still writing the same crappy business letters they use to write on the Wang Word Processors. I would actually venture to say, they probably wrote better letters back in the Wang Word Processor days. The same can be said for many many things that has been made different with PC's. Different, but different is not necessarily better.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 05:41:09 am
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on May 10, 2014, 04:26:28 pmUpper Management usually don't give a stuff about their Shareholders either,as long astheycan continue to live like kings!Case in point,the CEOs who take a Company in completely the wrong direction----they still get bonuses,thanks to those Shareholders who are unaware they are being screwed over.Even when a "more aware" Shareholder amasses enough shares to dump them,they still get "Golden Handshakes"!

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 06:58:56 am
content: Quote from: Dongulus on May 09, 2014, 10:14:38 pmI can say from first hand experience. Jonathan Frakes sits in a chair in the traditional method, I got to meet him, Rick Berman, Brent Spiner, Mirina Siritus, Michael Dorn, Gates McFadden, and Denise Crosby at a benefit show in LA last year. All good people. I also met Levar Burton the year before. I straight out asked Mr Berman why they did not continue writing stories and producing shows and movies. Its all in Paramounts hands. They were all still willing to keep on going. Paramount wants to destroy Trek and re make it in their own image of crap.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 03:48:12 pm
content: Quote from: Dongulus on May 09, 2014, 10:14:38 pmAhem ... in the last episode, Riker was anadmiral. He gave Picard a ride to the neutral zone to look for the time abnormality around the "Devon" (sp?) System.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 10:22:54 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 11, 2014, 03:48:12 pmKeep in mind, that last episode was only a dream of Picard ... but then ...Riker became a high ranking admiral, because he was no engineer.Engineers are usually stuck. Only very few make up the high ranks.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 10:33:06 pm
content: Geeks!

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 10:38:18 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on May 11, 2014, 10:22:54 pmre: ...Engineers are usually stuck. Only very few make up the high ranks....Yeah, rare for Engineers to "rank". Giants like Andy Grove or Jack Welch were engineers, but only gain fame after they left engineering.Jack Welch is interesting. He got his PhD because he knew it will help him get ahead. He got ahead more, and was able to move outward. Once he moved out of engineering roles, he insisted no one call him Dr. any more because he is in a new role. (<<< that part from his book) (This part is what I think >>>) he is so keen on his insight that he knew he needed a different image to move into management big time. So deliberate and so determined - no wonder he was such a giant.For him, there is/was life after engineering.For us average mortals, it is not engineering or what - once after age X, it is done. They may not say it, but it is in their minds.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 11:28:49 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 11, 2014, 10:38:18 pmGentlemen, lets keep this Engineer moving up the ranks Star Trek centric please. hahahahaha This is what I get for watching TNG on netflix after not having really seen it regularly for about 15 years!