What are my options to prevent China from copying my hobbyist product? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: rf-fil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 11:43:44 pm
content: Hi, I'm thinking about producing a small device, similar to something like the NanoVNA, for example. If I ever finish it, the plan is to make the gadgets in small quantities and to sell them directly to hobbyists around the world. With the NanoVNA and other similar small projects, there are many crap knock-offs on Ebay and Aliexpress. What could I do to prevent this kind of unauthorized copying?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 11:52:38 pm
content: you can make a specification, solder it nice and use real parts.The clowns that buy those knock offs are not going to be in your price range anyway, so you are not losing customers, its more like you think your losing customers when you see that people want it for 20% of the normal price, but its not like those customers would ever buy it from you at the real price , you know? Illusion of stolen customers.There is a flock of people out there that just have some dollar limit on buying things (i.e. 50 $). When its available they will buy in hordes. If its not available, they wont buy the similar thing for a much higher price if the cheap one is not available... and it might help sales because people will see some idiot on tik tok with it and think "oh I want the real one".

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 11:54:22 pm
content: Cpu or mcu wise, block them from being read for sure, buff any ic markings on them ... or encase a project in full black opxy casing lolllBut the thruth, if they want to copy a thing they will find a way, ic's can be decapped and read even if it a very costly approachNothing can be hidden forever if it's an interesting product who get their attention

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 11:57:40 pm
content: Just dont build it.The ChiComs will copy anything, including TM/(c), patents from large T$ firmsYour simple solution:1/ Do it and assume it may be copied2/ Just dont do it.Jon

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 12:00:06 am
content: yeah they manufacture pretty much everything. you won't out smart the people that manufacture everything with some sick manufacturing trick

author: Kerlin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 12:01:30 am
content: A good start is you can stop buying cheap copy garbage yourself and encourage everyone else not to.The day is coming very close when we will be sorry we bought it, and the next generation are going to hate us for it.

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 12:23:01 am
content: Someone will always copy your idea. You just have to make it better and offer more than the copy's manufacturer.

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 12:42:06 am
content: Quote from: rf-fil on December 15, 2022, 11:43:44 pmYou don't. If they do it on a large scale then you've failed to provide a value proposition. Concentrate on quality/service/support/aesthetics/etc/etc.More than likely though, nobody will bother, just make your thing without worrying about it, it's rare that any hobby project gets copied like that.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 12:52:07 am
content: Is it open source? Even if not, if your brand is a success, the PRC will make 'compatibles' - often with extra tempting features like an extra blinking LED, or a faster cpu core. Why is the world awash with cheap Arduino Nano clones? Because that's how it is. And where will your boards be made to maximise profit, not in a PCBWay factory?

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 02:29:37 am
content: It helps not to think in terms of a single item. Get it done and get it out there. Make a buck and be on to your next big thing before you have to worry about the old one not selling anymore. Maybe you get lucky and it continues to sell. Maybe not, but you don't care; markets are not stagnant.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 02:43:51 am
content: The NanoVNA is open source, the whole point of open source is that anyone can build a copy of it. If you don't want somebody copying your product, not making it open source is a good start.Beyond that there is nothing you can really do to block them, if your idea is worth copying then someone will copy it. Your best bet is to make the product as good as you can, price it fairly and provide good support. Unless somebody can undercut your prices by a substantial margin and sell enough widgets to be worth their while they won't bother to copy it. Spend your time making the product good, don't waste it on some futile attempt at copy protection.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 05:51:22 am
content: The only things you can do involve being unsuccessful.1. Make a device with such a limited audience that the market doesn't justify any investment in copying. How small is that? I don't know exactly, but would guess the answer is somewhere in the few dozen to a couple hundred area.2. Sell it at a low enough cost that no one can undercut you. If you are from any Western country this means selling at a significant loss. For some people and some products this might make sense, but it really isn't a broadly applicable solution.There are other ways to be un-succesful, but you get the idea. If you develop a useful and marketable product it will be copied.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 06:12:27 am
content: Something like a NanoVNA is complex and can't be easily cloned without having to iterate several cycles in performance tuning & verification. There is a good chance people trying to make cheap clones won't want to put this effort in, they just want to get to market with as low of costs as possible and ride the existing product name. They will also probably greymarket source the parts, so performance will vary between batches. You can potentially use this as your advantage.When your item gets cloned: buy each clone, analyse its performance and list its shortcomings on your sales website. Make it clear that yours (bought directly from you) is still better and worth the cost. Of course base this off actual tests, not just guessing based on visual difference, you are a biased party after all.(I'd even go as far as publishing a document saying "If you are going to clone this device: these are the things you are going to stuff up, please read carefully" so you can laugh at them afterwards)EDIT: Whilst I'm here: if at all possible try to avoid getting into debt to make this. If your product gets cloned and you're worried you won't make back costs then that's one problem, but in reality there are many more factors that could prevent you from making your costs back. Performance, reliability, competition, small market, economic woes, parts shortages (this is slamming lots of small device makers!), etc. Example comprimise: If you don't trust overseas PCB fab & assembly services (I suspect most sell & share your designs) then maybe make the device out of two mated PCBs from different suppliers, rather than buying PnP + production equipment yourself. Maybe consider that later if your business becomes reliably successful.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 07:02:54 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 16, 2022, 05:51:22 amPersonally have been involved numerous high margin million dollar scale projects that would be trivial to clone but weren't/aren't, so its entirely possible to get away with getting a return on engineering. Once you start making XX millions the copy cats (not even direct cloners) step up and join in. Roughly equally likely as getting cloned is some other group also working on the same market gap and releasing around the same time, hard to predict that one.Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on December 16, 2022, 02:29:37 amYes! A clone won't reach the market in meaningful terms for years, so if all plans hit that first year or two with plenty of return then its no problem.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 07:20:31 am
content: dont open source your firmware, put very hard encryption or mystical schemes as well in there with very big your company name in "about" section... one place that i see very hard for chicom to copy is that, unless very big corp get involved... another contingency is, while selling the product, make sure you have main job such as selling burger, fishing or knitting. so its not going to be the end of the world if your product get copied. even if they cant copy your product/idea, everybody will surely come out with other better and cheaper legit alternatives. for example, its nonsensical to buy Deepace KC901V VNA today when we already have a lot better and cheaper Nano/Lite VNA alternative.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 09:59:23 am
content: You really shouldn't worry about it, if they want to copy it they will.Your biggest advantage is that they wont copy anything until it's popular enough to make money copying it.So it's not usually a problem you will have to worry about for a while.One advantage you can use if your able to pick an industry to make a product in is to pick one where brand reputation is important to your consumers. So if china does make a copy no one really wants it. Automotive is on example.Also if its a niche product that helps a lot. You can make money selling it but its never mainstream enough for china to bother copying. There is no market for them to sell 10,000 of them.But if you make it open source / open hardware then all bets are off.You shouldn't really expect to make money selling an open source hardware product.As far as FW copy protection goes. the best protection schemes i've seen are ones that detect when the firmware is running on counterfeit hardware because there's something they didn't know to copy and the FW can detect it. Then the fw switches to a 'somewhat unstable' mode of operation.Not enough for them to detect it initially but enough to give the copied product a bad reputation.Any protection system that prevents them coping your product they will figure out how to bypass, but if they 'think' they have copied it successfully they will start selling it.Of course you have to consider safety, it's not ethical to make your code do something unsafe even if its copied illegally.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 11:07:08 am
content: or add somekind of a safetyyou open the casing the wrong way and it bust the cpu / mcu loll

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 09:23:07 pm
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on December 16, 2022, 11:07:08 amThat's a good way to encourage someone to clone it, or to give it a bad reputation. I want to be able to repair the products I purchase. If opening up something deliberately breaks it I'm not giving them my money for a new one and I'll tell anyone that will listen to do the same.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 11:28:24 pm
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on December 16, 2022, 11:07:08 amUnless your device is physically very large and thus can't easily be bought in bulk, or very expensive this is barely a speed bump. The reverse engineer merely searches the corpse for the tripwires, buys another and uses the information gained from the first to bypass your traps. If you think about the hourly cost of engineers/technicians it often makes sense to buy a dozen or so copies to start. This sets you up for this and also makes it possible to do some product variability evaluation.It can't be repeated often enough. Product protection is extremely hard. People with governmental budgets work at it and do very exotic things and still have only limited success. Some of the most effective techniques are diametrically opposed to the qualities of a robust and manufacturable product. Things like exploiting undocumented features in obscure ways, or requiring precise and tedious trimming and tuning to make the device work.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 01:35:36 am
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on December 17, 2022, 01:31:27 amIt will do the former yes, but not the latter. It will be very easy to determine what happened to the first one, and then open the second one up in a dark room and disable whatever energy source is creating the zap. Epoxy potting is also useless as a method of preventing reverse engineering. For a while I was routinely repairing potted HeNe power supplies, I found a number of ways to soften and remove the epoxy, I even completely de-potted a couple of them for fun. I have access to an xray machine so it's trivial to see what's inside potting. They are not hard to get hold of.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 01:45:13 am
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on December 17, 2022, 01:40:47 amHow much time, effort and money are you willing to spend implementing all this stuff, knowing that no matter what you do, someone will find a way to defeat it? What substances are you aware of that are non-conductive and bounce xrays? Don't forget what is often the easiest attack vector, simply analyzing what a widget does from a blackbox perspective and then designing something that does the same thing. Most widgets don't do anything especially unique. A competent embedded developer should be able to come up with a functional equivalent to almost any kind of gadget that comes along.

author: TERRA Operative
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 06:05:18 am
content: Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on December 16, 2022, 02:29:37 amWhen I was working for a company making widgets (HVAC systems and controls, 'smart' home type stuff) we were doing exactly this.Always innovating and making the next new product to stay ahead of the curve.

author: Shay
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 10:39:40 am
content: Why is this an issue in the first place? If they copy your product, it probably means you have quite a good product; I'd see it as an accomplishmentFurthermore, more people will be exposed to the fake, which counts as free advertising for your product because people will see the fake and possibly look for the original. It may also work in the opposite direction, but to a much lesser extent.encourage China to copy it and make it open source. Just make your product much better, and you'll be ok. Working hard to discourage them from copying your product is a waste of time and money; if they want it, they'll find a way to get it.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 11:01:40 am
content: Quote from: Shay on December 17, 2022, 10:39:40 amYep, it's kind of like getting annoyed that you're tax bill is much higher this year.That means your profit is much higher this year

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 03:41:44 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on December 17, 2022, 11:01:40 amsometime its fun to use analogy. but this time, sale can go millions (from china) but you got 0 income. not a good analogy

author: Shay
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 04:45:54 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on December 17, 2022, 03:41:44 pmSo it's almost like a forced advertisement for your products: if sales can reach millions from China, surely at least a small percentage of those who buy the Chinese version will look for the original.I assume that it might actually make the original product sell more as more people are exposed to it through the chinese sellers, however, i might be really wrong.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 05:46:59 pm
content: Following all that technical advises and measures given in this thread is a sure way to become a model patient for doctors studying paranoia.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 08:05:42 pm
content: As always, the best way of avoiding "unfair" competition (including cloning) from countries with low labour (and overall production) costs is not to get into the same league.Avoid designing low-cost products, you're never gonna be able to compete with China. Let it go. Focus on designing higher-end, more polished stuff with more added value and higher margins. This is how we can survive in Europe and the West in general, and all countries that are still able to have a healthy (although things are going sour for Germany for reasons we know and that have nothing to do with that), like Germany and Switzerland, have been doing exactly that.Designing low-cost products for a western company is a dead-end. Don't do it, or be prepared to suffer and eventually lose a lot of money.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 08:10:12 pm
content: yes reliability is one area chicom has not mastered. that one left to us to polish. if one day they master it, then we are just left as a bunch of hard labours.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 09:11:28 pm
content: Yes higher-end niche products are the way to go.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 09:18:49 pm
content: The design is easy to copy, the software isn't. Make your devices there but program them by yourself.Anyways, even the big companies do this.Micron got their DRAM IP stolen by UMC years ago:https://blocksandfiles.com/2020/10/30/upc-micron-ip-theft-guilty-plea/

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 09:23:39 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on December 17, 2022, 01:31:27 amThat is a terrible idea because, as you say, it will hurt legitimate customers. If a clone would actually become available, you would actively encourage people to buy the clone instead of the original, assuming that it does not annoy them with this nonsense.Just like the absurd copy protection and digital rights management schemes on audio, video and program media made the pirated copies so much more attractive.

author: niconiconi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 01:20:48 pm
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on December 17, 2022, 09:18:49 pmIt's more difficult to copy and will keep the amateurs and hobbyists out, but copying is still very practical. The so-called "read protection" features in microcontrollers are not really designed to protect them from any serious attacks. There's an entire industry in China on bypassing microcontroller code read protection, with an affordable price around just a few hundred dollars. I believe they usually use fault injection techniques, such as power and clock glitching, so that eventually the read-protection bit in the register will get flipped. Some of these attacks have already been documented in the open literature by independent researchers, e.g. see this STM32F1 exploit:https://blog.zapb.de/stm32f1-exceptional-failure/But the chip cracking industry in China is probably many years ahead, they probably have secret recipes for all common microcontroller models in existence.More advanced chip cracking techniques involve decapping and erasing the fuse bits under UV light, but these attacks are more expensive.Back in the early 2000s when DIP chips were still common, in China there were even special microcontroller programmers with a questionable code protection feature that uses high-current pulses to destroy the bounding wires in the programming pins, so that it stops chip crackers from using cheap non-invasive copying techniques.It's also worth noticing that none of these chip cracking services is necessarily illegal. It's often perfectly legal if chip cracking is only used for reverse engineering with the intent to understand its design (but not to copy its implementation), it's not different from what all big players in the electronics industry do - decap other chips for competitive analysis. But it's definitely illegal if you're copying the firmware and reusing it, and many bad-faith actors are doing it every day.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 02:34:42 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on December 16, 2022, 09:59:23 amOne easy way to do that on a networked device is to have a cryptographic signature that depends on the MAC address and a private key not stored on the device. Have the check run a good time in the future and have it revert to a default MAC address if it fails. It would work especially well where multiple devices are likely to be in use on the same network.

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 06:22:14 pm
content: problem with market place flooded with counterfeit copies is. it will leave all your sales on your own effort ... (people wont spend time and effort searching for your product specifically)attracting customers to your own website might be long and costly journey on its own

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 06:57:40 pm
content: To fab a copy, Setup, NRE, tooling is a fixed charge regardless of qty.min prod run is usually 1K..100K pcs.They will not bother if the market is say 100 or 1000Jon

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 07:21:01 pm
content: how much it will cost to cnc aluminum for simple mold for manual operated injection machine/device ~40EUR

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 07:34:53 pm
content: Really, there is no point in even trying to protect your gadget. If possible, you might apply for a patent but even that doesn't give much protection and you have to disclose how it works.The bad guys only need to see what something does in order to duplicate it. They can write firmware just as well as you can and probably much faster and better. They could even change out the electronics completely with just a little effort. If there's a sufficient market, your gadget protection will be useless.There simply is no protection other than patent infringement and that cuts both ways. How do you know you aren't infringing somebody else's patent?There's an entire industry dedicated to claiming patents on things that will never be built just to lock down the territory.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 07:44:33 pm
content: They already know what you're thinking mate. Its a cruel world.Its a niche product so its not attracitve to the high volume knockoff merchants, particularly if it uses pricey components.Don't flog it in places where they operate- ebay etc. Control the distribution.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 07:49:05 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 19, 2022, 07:34:53 pmIf they only take your concept (which you have not patent-protected), and develop their own electronics and firmware, they are not called "bad guys" but "competitors".

author: 2N2222A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 07:52:32 pm
content: I suggest a different approach to this issue.You should not only let the Chinese copy it, but actually encourage them to copy it when the time is right. But try to make it not end well for them when they do copy it.The Prolific USB to RS232 adapters are in this category. Prolific keeps changing the hardware and then making new Windows drivers that only work with the new hardware each time it gets cloned by the Chinese. The Chinese seem to be unable or unwilling to make a Windows driver. So the Chinese version only works on the older version of Windows.1) Design and create a lesser version of your product that is made to be unreliable or to malfunction. When a Chinese buyer buys it to clone it, send them this version.2) Allow the firmware to be read out from the MCU, but rig it in such a way that an alternate buggy firmware is read out instead of the real firmware.3) Make a buggy firmware available for free on the Internet and let the Chinese copy this.4) Have an enhanced version of your product to go out the door as soon as the Chinese clone hits the market.5) Put undocumented features in your product that don't get cloned, and have an enhancement to your product available that only works with the legitimate version of the product.6) Have your product produced at lower cost in another country that is not China. Keep the firmware programming local.7) Use an MCU that is unavailable in China and must be purchased from the west.Release repair documents or a reverse engineered project which contains false information which would help someone to produce a buggy clone of your product.9) Sell your own clone of the product at a very low price, tricking the Chinese in to thinking that there is already a clone being made out there. The reliability should be so bad that the sales will be very low and you won't lose too much money on the clone. Accept free returns and then resell the units.There have already been good suggestions and you can incorporate those things in to the product. How about a chassis tamper switch that switches the firmware out to a lesser buggy firmware if the device is opened?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 08:21:35 pm
content: Quote from: 2N2222A on December 19, 2022, 07:52:32 pmIs Prolific doing that now? FTDI tried that and the result was I stopped using FTDI parts because it's not worth the risk of my devices becoming bricked if I get burned by a distributor and end up with counterfeit parts. There is huge value in a device working with drivers that are baked into the operating system.