MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: stafil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2020, 07:24:09 pm
content: Hi folks!Sorry for the usual this vs that question, but after spending a lot of hours reading the relevant threads, I only ended up getting confused more.To start let me say that I am a complete new to electronics and this is just for hobby projects/experimenting. I have about $1200 max to blow on an oscilloscope. I know that for my use even the humble 1054z would be enough, but being a gearhead I decided to go with something "better".I have narrowed it down to MSO5074 or DSOX1204A.On one hand we have MSO5074 which is so much better in paper and cheaper. On the other hand I always appreciate reliability and accuracy over bugs and poor implementation, and from the posts I read about MSO5074 there seem to be a lot of bugs. And to be honest software bugs don't scare me as much as hardware bugs (i.e. the PLL bug of 1054z), assuming the vendor is committed to fixing their software bugs eventually.Do you have any advice for me?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2020, 07:55:00 pm
content: Buy neither. The Keysight is too expensive for the features it offers and Rigol takes years to finish the firmware.Look at other scopes like the GW Instek GDS-2000E series, MicSig STO1000 series or the Siglent SDS2000X+&#$ (don't know the post-fix 'du jour' but Tautech will tell you for sure) series.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2020, 08:10:24 pm
content: Quote from: stafil on March 26, 2020, 07:24:09 pmCertainly as Nico says you need consider the SDS2000X Plus series although they are just above you budget.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/My SDS2104X Plus is stuck in the NZ lockdown on the other side of Auckland with Defpom who's just just done a quick video of it and a more in depth one to come later this week.The link to watch it is in the first post in the above thread.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2020, 08:43:39 pm
content: What bugs are you *actually* concerned about? The major one I can think of is lack of proper hi-res.What is the main use? Low noise analog, high speed digital?

author: stafil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2020, 09:04:48 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on March 26, 2020, 08:43:39 pmNot one bug specific. Just reading throughhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-rigol-mso5000-tests-bugs-questions/My use is very casual. Neither low noise analog or high speed digital. Maybe some SPI decoding.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2020, 09:07:06 pm
content: Quote from: stafil on March 26, 2020, 09:04:48 pmGet a $5 clone logic analyzer (~20MHz) or a $50 dslogic (~200MHz), depending on the max SPI speed.

author: stafil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2020, 10:06:53 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on March 26, 2020, 09:07:06 pmThe DSLogic looks pretty cool! I don't see a model at $50, but nevertheless great pointer, thanks!

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2020, 10:21:01 pm
content: I have the MSO5074, I like it and there are no bugs that I have come across that stop me doing tests with it. The bode plot is a missing feature that's supposed to come with a new firmware update. If you buy it before the end of this month (March), Rigol will give you all the decoder and AWG features for free. It can also be hacked up to 350 MHz fairly easily.The logic analyzer probes that are made by Rigol for the MSO5000 are overpriced ($400), I've designed and built much cheaper ones that are fully described inthis thread.I own quite a bit of Rigol gear but I have no financial incentive to suggest you buy a Rigol.

author: NoisyBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2020, 05:51:47 pm
content: I do not use the Rigol as a LA, but if your interest is in SPI decoding, Dave's video "MSO5000 Bug Bonanza"showed specific bugs related to the simplest SPI decoding, unfortunately there was no follow-up videos as to the current state. You need to check this before buying.I don't know if that was ever fixed in the current firmware, perhaps other users can chime in.My feeling is Rigol has decent hardware, but firmware support responsiveness is definitely ranked in the lower tier of the B-Brands (based specifically on my experience with the MSO5000 in the last year). So while the Rigol has potential for more sophisticated uses, if your use case is as you described, Keysight is by far the better supported brand of the two, especially when it comes to post-sale services.I would agree with Gandalf_Sr, the LA probe in the Rigol is overpriced relative to what you get. You should definitely look into alternatives if you decided to go with the Rigol.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2020, 09:41:38 pm
content: That video was made in Nov 2018 when the MSO5000 first came out, can anyone specifically state that there are SPI decode issues still?

author: NoisyBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2020, 09:57:47 pm
content: Agreed, that’s why it is good to verify since SPI is in his use case, I have not heard anything to the effect that it has been fixed. Hopefully it is done given how long it has been.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2020, 11:07:21 pm
content: I tested SPI on my MSO5074 back in May 2019 before selling it and it seemed to work fine:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/impressive-keysight-1000x-series-(edux1002g-modded)-spi-triggering-rate/msg2449452/#msg2449452MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A (consider getting the G model): it all depends on your needs. The MSO5074 offers a lot for the money, if you hack it and actually use all the features. I am biased towards the KS... I sold mine (EDUX1002G-hacked to DSOX1202G) to test the MSO5074 and I didn't like it, so I switched back to the EDUX1052A and in the process of doing the HW mods to convert it to DSOX1202G

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2020, 11:26:55 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 26, 2020, 07:55:00 pmWhy those oscilloscopes and not others? It seems the original picks were very decent and popular ones. The Rigol isn't perfect but it's ridiculously capable. If you don't mind a few rough edges it's silly value for money. The Keysight is pretty much the opposite and is a very well rounded, pleasant to use machine. As you say it probably doesn't offer the most features for the money but good tools never really do. It'll still do a fair bit though.Blending other brands into your recommendations is a neat move, but we still see what you're doing.

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 12:39:15 am
content: If you choose the Keysight, I'd also suggest getting the G version (DSOX1204G), which comes with a built-in waveform generator (you'll figure soon you need one anyways) and frequency response analysis software (Bode plot, which only works with the internal generator). Also, keep in mind that unlike the Rigol, Keysight DSOX1204 is not hackable (for now...) and the software upgrades (notably increasing the bandwidth from 70 MHz to 200 MHz) are quite expensive. Good thing they offer the serial protocol decoding for free now...Rigol MSO5074 looks amazing on paper, and hackable to higher specs (or so people here say). If you are adventurous...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 12:58:40 am
content: Quote from: Caliaxy on March 28, 2020, 12:39:15 amIt seems the Keysights can be modded. Check the link three posts up in TK's message.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 01:12:27 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 28, 2020, 12:58:40 amNo he's talking about 2ch version. AFAIK 4 ch one is not hacked yet

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 01:15:38 am
content: If you don't need 4 channels and work mostly with digital circuits, then it is better to spend less money on the scope (i.e. go for the DSOX1202G) and get yourself a logic analyzer. The DSOX1202G has 2 analog channels + 1 digital channel. You can decode SPI using CLK, DATA (MOSI or MISO) and CS. If you select CS timeout, then you only use 2 channels. The external digital input can be used for CLK, DATA or CS.The new 1200X series has double sample memory (2Mpts), double waveform updates per second (200,000 wfm/s), free serial decoding (if purchased after March 1st, 2020). Lots of improvements for the same price or less

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 01:21:18 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on March 28, 2020, 01:12:27 amI am modding the 2 channel EDU1052A. Now that serial decoding is included, the only option to hack on the DSOX models is the BW upgrade (100MHz and 200MHz). The only known firmware hack was made by FERCSA for the Windows CE based scopes. It looks like Keysight recompiled the same infiniivision launcher application on Linux, as I found the same LOST (TV series) Easter Egg on the new scopes. But so far, the Linux based firmware has not been hacked.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 01:23:14 am
content: Rigol offers 30-day return policy... no return on Keysight unless you pay 15% restocking fee.

author: stafil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 03:05:59 am
content: Thanks a lot everyone! Sounds like at my level and for my use I cannot go wrong with either of them. In the worst case that I am desperate for an SPI decoder I will go with a PC logic analyzer.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 08:24:55 am
content: I think It will be easy to find someone to take a picture using SPI serial decode on MSO5000. Gandalf_Sr is using his scope every day to debug his very clever logical probe project

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 11:14:03 am
content: Quote from: stafil on March 28, 2020, 03:05:59 amI don't quite see the logic of that. Why would you spend money on a scope which has known limitations AND spend more money on top of that to make up for the defects? It is not like there are no viable alternatives.I think it will be a very interesting study into social psychology to understand why people buy oscilloscopes with unfinished firmware. Is it to belong to a group with people who are in the same boat waiting and anticipating new firmware? Cheering and celebrating everytime a new firmware gets released; anxious to see what got fixed and what hasn't when the manufacturer throws a bone?

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 11:38:48 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 28, 2020, 11:14:03 amWhat bug makes the MSO5000 unusable or painful to use ? I'm listeningThere are a lot of bugs that were reported during the market introduction....most have been fixed and there are bugs and bugs....At least, given the tons of Rigol scope sold, the bugs are well documented....And that is a great feature ( like well documented errata for MCU for example )Since R&S made affordable scope, there are obviously more people who buy them and therefore more people who use them with different logics or scenarios...and report bugs on this forum.Maybe Gw instek or Micsig have better firmware....but maybe, for look at something everyday, it is nice to have a 9inch touchdisplay with tons of memory and all the great feature the MSO5000 offer.Unless you think the thousands of people who buy this are stupid because it's not your choice ?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 02:15:22 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 28, 2020, 11:14:03 amUnless it's an experience breaking bug, what an oscilloscope can do is more important than what it can't. No oscilloscope or tool does everything right, so it's always a matter of picking your poison. The MSO5000 apparently does a lot right. Suggesting people aren't thinking for themselves is a bit insulting and also hilarious in the context of continually suggesting the same brand.

author: luma
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 05:40:14 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 28, 2020, 11:14:03 amI wonder about the psychology of people who have such fervent opinions about test equipment they don't own...I've said it elsewhere but feel obligated to repeat myself: I bought an MSO5074 shortly after launch,unlocked it to 450+ MHz, have been using it regularly since, and haven't encountered any bugs. I remain convinced that I got more scope per $ than I could have with any of the other available options at the time of purchase. Were I to be faced with the decision again today, I'd buy it again.Those of us working with the device don't spend much of our day complaining about it online.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 05:57:32 pm
content: Oh, and I forgot: there is also the "I bought it so it must be good" effect.

author: luma
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 06:01:25 pm
content: I was more going for the "I own and operate one regularly and thus might have an opinion informed by experience" but you take it as you will.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 06:05:09 pm
content: Quote from: luma on March 28, 2020, 06:01:25 pmWithout any information on what your previous experience is, which other oscilloscopes you owned, investigated, tested, etc owning one doesn't go much beyond 'everything looks like a nail if you only have a hammer'. But don't worry; I've been there too. FYI: several forum members have sold their MSO5074 (likely with a loss of money) and switched to a Siglent oscilloscope.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 06:33:21 pm
content: It is a matter of taste, not features. I had the DS1054Z, MSO5074, GW-Instek 1054, Siglent SDS1104X-E, Micsig TO1104, Micsig TO1102, EDUX1002G (modded to DSOX1102G), DSOX2004A, DSOX3004A, MSO3014T... I sold them all and currently I have the KS EDUX1054A (modding to DSOX1202G) and the Micsig TO1102. The micsig gives me portability, the Keysight an almost bug free and very responsive UI and amazing serial decoding. I was waiting for the Siglent SDS2104X plus but cancelled the order after careful evaluation that I don't need to spend $1400 to get a similar experience to SDS1104X-E.If I ever need 4 channels, I can combine both scopes and use the trigger out on the micsig to trigger the KS and analyze 4 channels... if I need more, then I can add a logic analyzer to the equation (I work mostly with digital circuits).For me, the scope itself is an experiment, so I came back to the EDUX1052A because I like to do the HW modding.In my opinion, the vast majority of scope users do not use all the features. I recently encountered serious serial protocol trigger issues on the SDS1104X-E (when I reported the bug it was on UART, but the other day I was trying to trigger on SPI and it does not work neither) and it has been like that for the last 2-3 releases of the firmware, what makes me conclude that most people just use the scope for basic stuff, probably 99% on edge trigger and look for rise and fall events.Conclusion: buy what you like the best with the money you can afford and don't ask for comments and opinion, unless you have a very specific use case and ask others for how a specific scope handles it.If you are worried about customer service, then go for the KS as Keysight and Keysight_DanielBogdanoff will take care of you... good luck if you need anything from Rigol or Siglent (Well, tautech will help you, but it is a non-official limited assistance and cannot control what your local Siglent rep will do)

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 09:20:16 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 28, 2020, 05:57:32 pmUnlike many of your interventions, this one really sucks and is useless.You have a respectable amount of knowledge, much more than mine, and thank you for sharing it.But we are talking about a scope at 900$.There is not much alternative at this price range, even now, almost 2 years after its release.Everyone has different needs. Insignificant things for some may be very important for others.I have waited a long time for the Siglent SDS2000X+ but I consider for an everyday scope that shared vertical control is prohibitive even with a touchdisplay. It is just me, my usage, my choice.Yes, when buying a Rigol, you have to remember that time is relative in regards to time to fix bugs.But once again, what function or what bug makes this device unusable?

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 09:32:05 pm
content: Plus I wish I had a dollar for every time nctnico recommended that someone buy GW-Instek.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 09:34:56 pm
content: Quote from: TK on March 28, 2020, 06:33:21 pmI'm just curious. When you bought a Ferrari, what made you want to go back to a Fiat?

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 09:44:35 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on March 28, 2020, 09:32:05 pmI bought one based on his recommendation... sold it after I played with it for a couple of days... UI is responsive, but the screen looks like an old Rigol DS1052E. I don't know if LCD has lower resolution or it is poorly designed.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 09:54:04 pm
content: Quote from: jemangedeslolos on March 28, 2020, 09:34:56 pmFor you, which one is the Ferrari and which one the Fiat?

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 10:01:30 pm
content: Quote from: TK on March 28, 2020, 09:54:04 pmThe Ferrari is obviously theRigolMSO3014T and the Fiat is any of the others.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 10:03:24 pm
content: An interesting comparison, for a long time Fiat owned Ferrari and many interchangeable parts had Ferrari and Fiat part numbers.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 10:14:24 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on March 28, 2020, 09:32:05 pm"He's just recommending "the best option" and if you say otherwise it must be a personal vendetta."I wouldn't care as much if it wasn't for the fact that the skewed and dishonest information is really unfair to newcomers. I don't understand the motivation either. Some of the resellers shilling their own kit I can understand but I don't think he has skin in the game. Then again, the internet is full of people going to war over choices and options of no consequence to them.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 10:27:31 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on March 28, 2020, 10:03:24 pmYes i know that but I love to much electronics and cars to compare scope with DaciaI just wanted to know why after buying maybe the most powerful everyday scope on the market, go for a low end line, b-brand or cheapest one?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 10:32:53 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 28, 2020, 10:14:24 pmBack to your personal vendetta again. And now calling me a liar too.As usual: if you cared to read back then you can see I recommend 3 different options within the budget.Quote from: jemangedeslolos on March 28, 2020, 09:20:16 pmThis is me sharing some of my life lessons here looking back at past purchases. How I felt about them at first, how I felt about them later on and trying to objectively quantify the reasons why I still felt it was a good buy later on for some instruments, why not for other instruments and how to avoid being dissapointed in the future. Avoiding the "I bought it so it must be good" mental state is a large part of staying open to other suggestions.A simple example: You assume the Ferrari is the MSO3014T. After owning one of it's predecessors I wouldn't even though I'd assume the touch screen will make it easier to use compared to the knobs-only version. I can understand TK's reasoning which made him end up where he is now.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 11:22:26 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 28, 2020, 10:32:53 pmI called it, although I wish I didn't. I guess Gandalf_Sr is waging a completely separate "personal" vendetta? I don't care about you or your personal beliefs, but I do care about the noise incessantly pushing a brand creates. Especially considering it often concerns newcomers who are especially susceptibility to skewed and coloured information. What's going on is blatantly obvious to any of the regulars and obfuscating your behaviour a bit by sprinkling in other brands while still recommending GW-Instek doesn't change much. I expect you to vehemently disagree so why not prove us wrong? Don't just say we've got it all wrong, show us by omitting GW-Instek recommendations for a bit. You won't hear a peep out of me.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 11:31:14 pm
content: Quote from: jemangedeslolos on March 28, 2020, 10:01:30 pmI got a good deal, test drove it, then sold it for a reasonable profit because it is a lot of money to have sitting on a hobby bench. For me, the KS 1200X scope drives like a BMW... the Rigol feels like driving a 5-ton truck with a Fiat 600 engine

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 08:36:47 am
content: Quote from: TK on March 28, 2020, 11:31:14 pmI understand a little better now.I imagined that you had bought MSO3014T new, at full price, lost a little money when resell it.... and ended up with the low end model.

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:48:17 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 28, 2020, 10:32:53 pmI am currently using a MSOX4000 and previously had the 3000a series. So I know the direct comparison of two otherwise almost identical devices.There are imho indeed only a few situations where a touchscreen has advantages:· Selecting & moving a cursor· Direct input of numbers (e.g. Holdoff time or generator frequency)· Input of letters (On screen comments, labels).· drawing a trigger window (seldom used)My personal opinion: for almost everything else the operation with knobs/buttons is more suitable (if they exist).Sure, you always see in the demo videos so nicely the shifting of waveforms, pinch-to-zoom etc. but in practice this is impractical and inaccurate and probably seldom used (as long you have knobs for it). And I always have to grin when in user videos they try to select and/or move a waveform or a trigger by touch and it doesn't work 3 times in a row ... and the user leaves it uncommented and pretends that nothing happened and he was just poking the screen for fun. This can be seen in almost every user video.Though some of the newer scopes are reducing knobs and buttons as they need the space for the screen. Here you are almost forced to use the touch screen.<rant>The car industry is moving in the same direction: they had this long evolved and smart large rotary push button in the centre console of the car for more than a decade. Now they are starting to get rid of it and force you to use a touch screen. EVERYBODY says the pushbutton solution was better and easier to use and can keep you eyes on the street instead the screen. But because it is much cheaper for the manufacturer, we are forced to use a worse alternative of an almost perfect solution. Grrr.</rant>

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 01:04:36 pm
content: Quote from: Pinkus on March 29, 2020, 10:48:17 amYes, using cursors on the Micsig touch scope is very easy, KS is my second favorite because you just turn the knob to select X1, X2 or X1-X2 and then turn the dedicated cursor knob, no need to click on the multi-function knob. The Siglent is my least favorite as you need to push the knob after turning it, because the same knob is used for moving the cursor around.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 01:06:10 pm
content: Quote from: stafil on March 26, 2020, 07:24:09 pmGo for the Keysight (G version) and you will not regret . You will see ...

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 01:48:04 pm
content: Quote from: skander36 on March 29, 2020, 01:06:10 pmOnly thing he'll see is how some people are galant with other people's money..

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 02:03:37 pm
content: Quote from: jemangedeslolos on March 28, 2020, 08:24:55 amOK, this is really quick and dirty but I did test decoding on SPI and it seems just fine, I only tested at 1 MHz but it did exactly what I expected.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 05:21:27 pm
content: Quote from: Pinkus on March 29, 2020, 10:48:17 amI agree with you on nealy everything...The touchscreen is very useful but it's not a reason to remove buttons.Even the cursors I move them with knobs, It's more precise and efficient.But for holdoff, baudrate or zone triggering, a touchdisplay is really niceAnd touchscreen are often larger which must be admitted adds even more comfort.The perfect combination is a touch screen with independent vertical control channel, dedicated knob for trigger, dedicated knob for decode etc etc

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 06:13:34 pm
content: Quote from: jemangedeslolos on March 29, 2020, 05:21:27 pmNot sure. If the cursors 'snap' to a trace then a touchscreen works really well. Even better than a knob. But it greatly depends on whether the touchscreen was added to the UI later on or the UI was build to support a touchscreen. IOW: wether a touchscreen works well or not greatly depends on how it is integrated into the UI. You can't make generalistic statements.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 07:22:42 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 29, 2020, 06:13:34 pmIndeed.TK said this after experience only with X-E models:Quote from: TK on March 29, 2020, 01:04:36 pmWith 2kX Plus and 5kX models the overall UI is very different in that any feature when activated can be placed anywhere on the display with touch, mouse or even the virtual keyboard.When limited to only front panel controls in the cheaper models usability choices are much constrained.To remain on topic, discussion of entry level DSOs is not.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:00:34 pm
content: Quote from: stafil on March 26, 2020, 07:24:09 pmYepp…Buy both of them and return the one, you don´t like...The rigol I´ve owned over a year, got my experiences with it - But none with the keysight, cause I don´t have it.Bet none got both too here…Yes, the rigol is full packed with features.8 GSa/s you won´t find it in this priceclass, also the 100Mpt memory or the waste amount of math functions, or the waste amount of trigger functions, or the screen size, or the build-in 2 ch awg, or, or, or , or…..In it´sraw priceclassyou´ll find nothing competing to this.But this is my opinion only, cause I don´t know the keysight.

author: stafil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:06:45 pm
content: Didn't know it was such a sensitive topic when I started this threadsorry..I looked a couple of videos of the GW Instek scopes, and I have to say, I didn't like the look of their UI that much. Regarding Siglent, I have tried a loaner SDS1004X-E, and wasn't wowed by it, also am a bit put off by Siglent reps promoting them here, so I crossed that off my list too. (Yeah I know, not really technical reasons, but I have to start somewhere).Ended up ordering both MSO5074 and DSOx1204G. Will try them both for a month or so and will sell the one I like the least. So keep an eye on this space for a bargain super lightly used scope in the near futureSpecial thanks to Gandalf_Sr for making the effort to demonstrate SPI decoding.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:12:47 pm
content: QuoteI give my 5074 away for the new 2104X+ and until now I never regret it.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:17:18 pm
content: Quote from: stafil on March 29, 2020, 10:06:45 pmIt's a entry level DSO with a lot of capability, no more, no less.Your expressed budget indicated you were looking further up the ladder hence the suggestion to look at SDS2104X Plus where in this price bracket you will be hard pressed to find a more capable DSO.Good luck with your search for the perfect scope....that has yet to be made.

author: stafil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:25:34 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 29, 2020, 10:17:18 pmI didn't mean to offend anyone using Siglent or the product itself. I am sure that if the first scope that I tried was the Rigol 1054Z, I would be probably going for the SDS2104X instead. Just thought I explain my (flawed) reasoning for narrowing it down to the two.Plus my opinion doesn't really mean much since I can't really tell if a scope is good or not.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:28:57 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on March 29, 2020, 10:00:34 pmI and Tk for sure , even if was 1000A model I think that 1204 will be a better experience .Knowing both I will go for sure for Keysight .

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:34:39 pm
content: Quote from: stafil on March 29, 2020, 10:06:45 pmI like the seeing for yourself approach! Let us know how you get on.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 08:51:00 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 29, 2020, 06:13:34 pmI have to take a closer look at this, I'm not used to using touchscreen for cursors, my reflex is to put my hand on knob....But I'm not sure that Rigol's UI is as good as R&S or Keysight UI on this kind of thing.

author: moore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2020, 06:22:52 pm
content: It's been a month, I'm curious what you concluded in this comparison, stafil.

author: stafil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2020, 07:33:51 pm
content: Quote from: moore on April 30, 2020, 06:22:52 pmThey are both excellent and are both overkill for what I need them. If I would had to chose only one, it would be the MSO5074, mainly because with hacking you get so much more.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 30, 2020, 09:51:23 pm
content: I think we'd all be interested in a pros/cons list of both if you're willing?

author: luma
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2020, 09:54:40 pm
content: In the month since this thread was posted, Rigol has released yet another update for the MSO5000 series, this timeadding Bode plotfunctionality. Bugs are being fixed (not that I personally have had problems with that) and features are still being added.

author: stafil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2020, 10:14:11 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on April 30, 2020, 09:51:23 pmIt's like asking a Black Cab taxi driver to give his opinion on a Ferrari vs a LamborghiniI love the look and feel of the Keysight and the overall interface. Somehow everything is where I would expect to find them, and my hand just magically goes to the right knob. One, basic in my opinion, feature that I did miss was the statistics. I don't understand why it's not there when even the $300 Siglent has it.On the other hand it's mind-blowing how feature packed the Rigol is, even more so when hacked. I don't think I will ever out-grow it, and if I didn't have a GAS I would probably never need to buy another scope. If I was pressed to find something negative, then that would be the feel of the buttons. They feel too soft, which together with the sightly more sluggish UI, some times leave me in doubt if I pressed them or not.If I could go back in time and talk to myself, I would have advised me to get the Rigol, hack it and be happy. But I will definitely not selling my Keysight now that I have it.

author: NoisyBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 12:01:53 am
content: So you are keeping both?

author: stafil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 01:16:15 am
content: Quote from: NoisyBoy on May 01, 2020, 12:01:53 amDefinitely!

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 07:51:13 am
content: Quote from: stafil on May 01, 2020, 01:16:15 amI think you bought othersscope , right?SDS2000X+ or GW Instek ?

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 12:52:41 pm
content: Quote from: stafil on April 30, 2020, 10:14:11 pmStatistics actually is in the application , but not in this HW ID.I found it when I experiment with HW ID's but I don't remember what was . Three years ago . It was functional but not he other functions, so change it away .I will keep my Rigol 5074 but I need also a Keysight scope , for it's behavior (responsive, fluent , fast). I'm stick with a 2000 series but it is an old line and I don't know if will be replaced by DSOX1200 series with new specs - 200k wfw/s / 2Mpts . Maybe DSOX1200 is more apropriate ...@Keysight DanielBogdanoff - what is preparing Keysight for the future with 2000 series ?Thank you !

author: eutectique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 01:23:55 pm
content: Quote from: stafil on March 26, 2020, 09:04:48 pmDefinitely not Rigol MSO5074! Never! It is a dysfunctional piece of junk not fit for purpose.Their SPI triggering is completely utterly royally screwed big time. The documentation shows that the same is applicable to MSO7000 series, which is comparable in price with Tektronix.I wonder if the Rigol's product manager, system architect, head of SW development, and head of QA responsible for this magnificent blunder are still employed. A decent company would throw them out without a second thought.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 01:35:02 pm
content: Quote from: eutectique on May 01, 2020, 01:23:55 pmWith do all respect, in your other post on SPI triggering, it's still not clear if you are doing something wrong, or if MSO5000 has a bug for that use case. Nobody else replicated your problem. So would you please be kind and calm down a bit and figure that out first, before going to crusades...P.S. For the record I don't like new Rigol GUI concept and don't have Rigol MSO5000/7000 or anything from that line..

author: eutectique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 01:40:28 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on May 01, 2020, 01:35:02 pmYes, I am collecting the evidence, taking screenshots, and will make a post about it.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 01:48:56 pm
content: Quote from: eutectique on May 01, 2020, 01:40:28 pmMake a note that your packets are 64 bits not 32bits.. So you need to setup SPI for 64bit word and make first 32bits a filter and set rest of the 32 bits to to the end to x (don't care). And when it triggers, trigger point will be at the end of the packet, because that is the moment in time trigger circuit had it's condition qualified.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 01:53:01 pm
content: Quote from: eutectique on May 01, 2020, 01:23:55 pmit was working when i tested a year ago, something broke in the firmware update. It happened the same with the siglent sds1104x-e, i could not trigger on a specific byte value and tautech confirmed the bug. The difference is that Rigol is always silent. They don’t publicly accept or deny anything. The best serial decoding is keysight. They had serial protocol triggering since the 54622D days or before (uart, spi, i2c and usb trigger). It is fast. If they say 200,000wfm/s that is what you get. The new siglent 2000x plus claims 140,000wfm/s but i cannot get more than 2,000 even with dot mode and the lowest sample memory possible of 10kpts. They are all toys with lots of marketing tricks except for keysightI have a comment about the keysight dsox1200... the linux based scope is not as responsive as the wince scopes. Even when keysight made it boot minutes faster, it shows the waveform but the little busy signal does not allow you to start operating the scope for some extra time... a marketing trick in my opinion because early reviews said it takes forever to boot

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 03:28:48 pm
content: Quote from: TK on May 01, 2020, 01:53:01 pmI'm am sure that it does, but not all the time . Only at certain timebase (10 ns) and signals with over 200 KHz.On Rigol5074 I can get 500k wfw on 10ns timebase and over 500KHz . In rest of the cases wfw rate is as you say few K's .Thank you for info about responsiveness of DSOX1200 series . I don't know why they leave WinCe for Linux .

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 04:12:32 pm
content: Quote from: skander36 on May 01, 2020, 03:28:48 pmBecause M$ won't sell them licenses after a certain date, so they have no choice.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 05:13:00 pm
content: Quote from: TheSteve on May 01, 2020, 04:12:32 pmYes, but they can use Windows IOT or Windows 10 for ARM .They already have Win 10 on some series .Maybe Linux Embeded was a better choice for they but it seem that need some polish ...

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 06:19:17 pm
content: Quote from: skander36 on May 01, 2020, 05:13:00 pmI do believe they have a team developing the linux OS and utils. I get the feeling the scope was the first to get it and is the test bed for future products that will also be using it. So before it is rolled out to many products it will be tested and refined quite a bit.

author: stafil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 06:22:44 pm
content: Quote from: jemangedeslolos on May 01, 2020, 07:51:13 amSDS2000X+

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 06:24:40 pm
content: So, DSOX 1200 or 2000 ?MSOX5074 has its own place .

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 06:29:31 pm
content: Problem is that it is mostly ignored that Windows graphic architecture and libraries are vastly more efficient than what Linux has. That, together with fact that there are many more good graphic programers for windows makes it harder to make same thing on Linux.But it's a good thing somebody started and hopefully things will get better. Maybe they will even contribute some graphic library that actually works back to O.S.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 07:22:00 pm
content: Quote from: TheSteve on May 01, 2020, 06:19:17 pmLooking at the interview Dave had with John Kenny they've been working on going Linux a long time. Apparently they were worried about the various license structures and obviously you'll need to start from scratch and redevelop a product up to your current standards. I do get the feeling John understood the problems they were facing using Windows weren't going away and something needed to be done. If anyone hasn't seen it, it's a great interview and well worth your time. The first part is posted below.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 07:22:56 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on May 01, 2020, 06:29:31 pmThey had to develop the Windows product quite a bit too. At one point they greatly reduced the boot time, which I understand was no small feat.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 07:49:05 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on May 01, 2020, 07:22:56 pmLikely. WindowsCE isn't Windows at all. I've seen co-workers struggle a lot with CE after they initially thought it would be like programming on Windows. Lots of limitations and basic stuff like a good flash based filesystem, database and ability to skin the GUI where completely missing. I decided to go the Linux route and had a much easier job to create a slick GUI and a rock solid product. With Linux on an embedded platform getting away from a standard look is just a matter of using/creating a different GTK theme instead of creating / coding GUI elements from scratch like my co-workers had to do for CE. The biggest advantage of using Linux on an embedded target is that it isn't a cut down version of a full blown OS. This means every piece of software that is available to run on a PC is available for use on the embedded platform (unless it uses assembly code). This gives a huge advantage because you don't have to code stuff from scratch or pay a lot of money to get a (crappy) third party library. The only limit is the embedded platform itself.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 08:31:02 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on May 01, 2020, 07:22:00 pmAgilent/Keysight have had a number of products that have run Linux over the years. Each time the product had an OS made just for that product. I believe they are now trying to have an OS base that can be used across many products/divisions. Only time will tell us what they decide to use.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 08:37:09 pm
content: Quote from: TheSteve on May 01, 2020, 08:31:02 pmDSOX scopes still use Spear 600 and there must be more powerful and modern options in the market.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 08:51:27 pm
content: Quote from: TK on May 01, 2020, 08:37:09 pmRigol MSO5074 use a more powerfull ARM processor, but look at the UI , so much lag.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 10:02:39 pm
content: Quote from: skander36 on May 01, 2020, 12:52:41 pmI found a print screen with "Statistics"

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2020, 12:43:32 pm
content: Quote from: skander36 on May 01, 2020, 08:51:27 pmI don't notice any UI lag on my MSO5074, please give me an example of what the problem is.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2020, 01:23:38 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on May 02, 2020, 12:43:32 pmI found it annoying the lag when moving the trace horizontally or vertically, or trying to change trigger level.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2020, 01:52:44 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on May 02, 2020, 12:43:32 pmThat means you didn't use it ...Beside Tk examples , there is a lag on almost any commands from front panel that affect signal (Vert. or Horiz.) .LE. -DS2000 series is much more responsive , and not talking of Keysight .