Ot: Dishwashers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 07:04:46 am
content: Fun.A thought occurs. The rinse-aid is loaded into a compartment and is typically good for dozens of loads.Why isn't the detergent also this way? Why not load the whole door (it is mostly empty, no?) with a big tank of gel-type detergent?

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 07:11:01 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on December 23, 2020, 07:04:46 amObviously you would need to come up with a mechanism to prevent detergent being released into the rinse water.Getting rinse-aid into detergent isn't a problem, though.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 10:16:12 am
content: That was interesting and entertaining. Funny enough when I see those pack commercials I always think the same "but what about the prewash cycle?". I've always just used the powder myself.This just made me realize, designing a dishwasher would be kinda fun. Coming up with the algorithms for the different cycles and trying to optimize the cleaning process etc.Or just do like the commercial grade ones and use brute force. 100 amps dedicated circuit and super heat the water and have the wash cycle last like no longer than 10 minutes. There is something crazy about seeing a 2" thick teck cable feeding a dishwasher directly lol.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 11:41:11 am
content: your glass will explodenormal dishwasher takes out plenty over time

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 11:46:28 am
content: I was using Sunlight (Henkel/Unilever) pods until a few badly tarnished all my stainless steel utensils and cookware. So I ditched that brand and tried Costco dishwasher pods - they leave behind rinse-aid residue and perfume stinks up the entire house.Found most of the problem is my strainer partially clogged with mineral deposits, so it doesn't drain as fast as needed or something.It's the state-machine software failing and being impossible to troubleshoot when a sensor hiccups, the dishwasher just ends up getting replaced.Easy to write software that goes through the motions, the hard work is when you have to check and deal with sensors, or in my case a slow drain cycle.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 12:08:58 pm
content: I've never understood people who use tablets over powder. They are SO much more expensive.Just a quick back-of-the-napkin calculation based on the Finish dishwasher powder I use (certainly not the cheapest, but good in terms of quality):Finish Powder:The dosage for a full load in my dishwasher is about 20 grams.I buy the 2 kg packs of powder @ AUD$19.50.This equates to 19.5 cents per wash (without rinse aid). Adding Finish brand rinse aid as well increases the cost to about 30 cents per full load.Tablets:The absolute cheapest tablets I could find in the same store work out to be AUD$35.00 for a pack of 120 tablets.This equates to 29 cents per wash (without rinse aid).A pack of liquid "tablets" that also included rinse aid worked out to be 78 cents per wash.The most expensive from the same store were $1.06 per wash for the Finish "quantum ultimate pro" tablets with quantum balls etc... (what a load of wank).Let's just say you do 5 full loads per week.Absolute cheapest powder I could find:AUD$10.40/yearFinish Powder:AUD$50.70/yearFinish Powder + Rinse Aid:AUD$78.00/yearGeneric brand tablets:AUD$75.40/yearFinish Tablets + Marketing Wank:AUD$275.60/year

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 12:17:03 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 23, 2020, 11:46:28 amAfter I moved into my house, the drain was clogged 6 months later. Half-way between my kitchen and the street. I had to call a professional to clean it up ($$$). So the drain was full of the remains of those pods. Previous owner probably was using the cheapest pods possible... The ones that are liquid are better, so I suggest using that to everyone. The price difference is not that much. At least online, the local shops are selling it for the price of gold.Quote from: Halcyon on December 23, 2020, 12:08:58 pmFinish quantum ultimate (super hyper turbo) is 0.18 EUR from Herr Bezos.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 01:26:18 pm
content: i noticed the cheap tablets suck and then the thing you should do about minerals is use one of those dishwasher cleaner bottles once in a while. it makes the stainless steel in the dishwasher look new and supposedly clears out all the mineral deposits.I tried cheap tablets (that did not have the liquid jel technology or whatever you want to call it) and it results in lots of rewash and more spots after it was done.. the cascade high quality tablets leave a spot free glass.baking soda with a drop of dishwashing soap works also, but literary 1 drop, (more similar to cheap tablets).The reason is you want to be able to shelf the stuff right after removal without having to wipe it down. There is some kind of weird pattern you can do with arranging the stuff to make cheaper chemicals work but I have too much random shape cookware to figure it out.Do you use a mixture of clear glass and porcelain? I inspect each dish under strong light while twirling it before putting it away to make sure there are no spots.Depending on how much meal prep you do and how well you figure out your dishwasher capabilities with baking soda you can sneak some baking soda washes in there once in a while to handle non difficult cookware to reduce cost (i.e. use it the day you need to clean a bunch of tupperware that was filled with dryer non greasy foods and tea cups) then use the premium stuff after you do stuff with lots of frying and fancy tools.and it also depends on how aggressive you are with filling the dishwasher.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 01:34:26 pm
content: Powder vs. tablets:Pros:+ Cheaper+ Allows usage as pre-wash+ Thanks to pre-wash, better result+ Less waste+ Fits all machines+ Adjustable amount for varying amount/dirtiness of dishesCons:NoneTablets vs. powderPros:NoneCons:- More expensive- Inability to use as prewash- Thanks to water-only prewash, inferior results- More waste- Inability to use in some specific small/countertop/old machines with wrong shape of detergent tray- Inability to adjust the amount- Buying them, you support the production of the TV advertisements marketing this shit

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 02:27:35 pm
content: a con is you need to pour god damn powder into some bull shit that is 6 inches off the ground instead of putting in a solid object into a slotmaybe if you can cast it into a ingot to make your own tablet it would work but I still get better cleaning performance form the cascade crazy liquid thingsI know it makes a difference because i ran out of platinum pods once and had some solid bars and they pissed me off severely. It was like running out of food and having to switch to dogfood. same thing as using cheap cleaning wipes (they SUCK in comparison). So long those pods don't glue together into 1 mega pod they kick ass, you get no dusty residue on your fingers (the tablets are dusty), don't need a measuring tool, cant over pour, can't spill.I washed all dishes manually for many years and I don't mind paying extra for the pods now. if you cook every meal you make yourself seconds start to count on the crappy days. Keeps things running smoothi do use them with the blue drying compound though

author: mag_therm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 03:13:58 pm
content: Firstly, the family is trained to rinse all the solids off in the sink (despite public advice not to) before loadingSecondly, the main problem here is then , with the common USA brand of dishwasher I use, the blue inlet solenoid valves.The fill level is determined only by a fixed timer on the board. The float switch is just in series with the solenoid to prevent flooding when the valve sticks open.Over time , especially in winter, the valves admit less and less water during the fill time.Then dishwasher problems start.The valves are about $75, and I have 2 dishwashers here, and replace them every 5 to 10 years.So I need to replace these valves periodicallyThe design is the same, tamperproof. Part of the design problem of sticking, I think, is low inrush so they can use the smallest drivers/relays on the board.But the mounting holes and orientation and price of the valves are changed model- by model.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 03:44:29 pm
content: Powder can cause streaks on glass depending on the dishwasher. Some are more prone than others.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 04:21:03 pm
content: Maybe they should make a Pez dispenser with Alec's head to dispense pods...Anyway, I usually just wash up by hand with a 3M sponge, which are the best. I rarely use my dishwasher, only when I got lazy and let stuff accumulate.I guess the same pod vs powder logic applies to washing machines. The machines also have a pre-wash cycle.

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 04:41:26 pm
content: Ive found that for cleaning a dishwasher, citric acid is fantastic (cheap, and pretty useful for other stuff around the house) My dishwasher was leaving soap residue on everything until I ran a cycle with a dispenser full of ctiric acid powder. With most soaps being basic, obviously this is going to help with the residues, plus it is very hungry for metal ions, so if there is hard-water build up (calcium, magnesium carbonate) get consumed into water soluble calcium/magnesium citrates.But I live in an apartment with a cheap garbage tier dishwasher, with only a spraybar at the bottom and that telescopes up to shoot a jet at the domed top of the machine. No middle spraybar with its own water feed from the back, and certainly not a 3rd one at the top. I'm pretty sure the rinse-aid dispenser doesn't work, but I'm certainly not going to nag at maintenance over that at the moment, as I'm not that picky about the glassware being 100% spot free, and I'll just clean it every two months to keep it from being excessive.Other uses: Descaling faucet aerators and shower heads. Passivation of stainless steel. I.e. my stainless vacuum coffee mug or the decanter on my drip coffee maker after cleaning. Cleaning any sort of spots, be it soap or mineral buildup on bathroom or kitchen sink hardware. a 10 lb/4.5 kilo bag for $25 goes a long way.I first learned about it after picking up soapmaking as a lockdown hobby. The in-situ formation of sodium citrate still performs the same function of bonding onto calcium/magnesium ions, keeping hard water from making insoluble/less soluble calcium and magnesium soaps, i.e. soapscum.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 07:53:34 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on December 23, 2020, 02:27:35 pmThat depends on the machine, most modern machines don't have the tablet "slot" at the front of the top tray anymore. They say to put the tablet into the same compartment as the powder. There is literally no difference in many machines. The only difference is, user laziness and the perception of being "more convenient" for which I call bullshit.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 08:12:08 pm
content: Quote from: ConKbot on December 23, 2020, 04:41:26 pmMy friend told me he tosses a pouch of Tang in his.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 08:55:05 pm
content: Dishwasher pods are convenient - butOMG the list of chemical soup is terrible!Quiz on how many are carcinogenic, and this shit ends up in our water.Here'sFinish Powerball Maxas an example:Sodium Bicarbonate - Complexing/Sequestering Agent: Binds hard water and other minerals to allow the cleaning actives to perform more effectively. CAS#:144-55-8Sodium Carbonate - Complexing/Sequestering Agent: Binds hard water and other minerals to allow the cleaning actives to perform more effectively. CAS#:497-19-8Sodium Percarbonate - Bleaching Agent: Makes the appearance of substances white or colorless. CAS#:15630-89-4Polyethylene Glycol - Binder: Helps bind the product ingredients together in a tablet format. CAS#:25322-68-3Polyacrylic Acid Sodium Bisulfite Terminated - Antiredeposition Agent: Prevents the redeposition of soils back onto a surface, especially fabric surfaces. CAS#:68479-09-4TAED - Bleach Activator: Enhances the performance of a Bleaching Agent. CAS#:10543-57-4Trisodium Dicarboxymethyl Alaninate - Complexing/Sequestering Agent: Binds hard water and other minerals to allow the cleaning actives to perform more effectively. CAS#:164462-16-2Microcrystalline Cellulose - Polymer: A large molecule, or macromolecule, composed of many repeated subunits. CAS#:9004-34-6Polyvinyl Alcohol - Dissolvable Film: Coats the outside of a product but dissolves in water to release the contents. CAS#:25213-24-5Citric Acid - Complexing/Sequestering Agent: Binds hard water and other minerals to allow the cleaning actives to perform more effectively. CAS#:77-92-9Sodium Sulfate - Filler: Adjusts the concentration of ingredients in a product to deliver target benefits. CAS#:7757-82-6Alcohol polyglycolether - Surfactant: Surface-active agent helps remove dirt, stains, and bad smells. CAS#:501019-91-6(1-Hydroxyethylidene)Bisphosphonic Acid Sodium Salts - Complexing/Sequestering Agent: Binds hard water and other minerals to allow the cleaning actives to perform more effectively. CAS#:29329-71-3Glycerin - Solvent: Solubilizes or dissolves at least one other substance to form a solution. CAS#:56-81-5Protease Enzyme - Enzyme: Catalzyes the removal of various soils (protease: protein stains, amylase: starch stains, lipase: grease/oil stains). CAS#:9014-01-1 (high air toxicity, asthmagen)Fragrance/Parfum:C.I. Pigment Red 57Magnesium StearateC.I. Pigment Blue 29Zinc AcetateAmylase Enzyme - Enzyme: Catalzyes the removal of various soils (protease: protein stains, amylase: starch stains, lipase: grease/oil stains). CAS#:9000-90-2 (high air toxicity, asthmagen)Tolyltriazole - Corrosion Inhibitor: Helps maintain fresh product contents from corrosion or deterioration. CAS#:29385-43-1Benzotriazole - Preservative: Preserves products from bacterial spoilage during transit and storage. CAS#:95-14-7C.I. Acid Blue 182Fragrance Componentd-Limonene - (IARC Carcinogens : Group 1, 2A, or 2B)Delta-3-Carene - (AOEC Asthmagens)Dodecanenitrile - (toxic air contaminant)Ethyl Alcohol - (US NTP Carcinogens: Reproductive or developmental toxicant)Non-Functional ConstituentSodium Sulfate - Non-Functional Constituent CAS#:7757-82-6Magnesium Sulfate - Non-Functional Constituent: CAS#:10034-99-8

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 09:15:25 pm
content: Interesting video, although my experience is different.I have owned/used five dishwashers after moving to US (in Brasil this is considered an expensive luxury): the first two were generic GE brands that had severe issues with cheap powder dishwasher soap. I had to resort to the more expensive soap variants and brands to get the dishes clean - that after rinsing everything before loading the machine, cleaning the drain filter and running hot water from the get go.Then we moved to our current house that had a Bosch-branded model (with a single compartment dispenser). It wasreally goodand I was able to go back to the cheap soap alternative without too much problems (frying and baking still needed the more expensive soap). When this broke, we replaced it with a fancy KitchenAid/Whirlpool (against my will) that also did a good job and had a single dispenser - by then SWMBO had an idea of using a more natural soap that is a heap of garbage, so I kept using the fancier soap but this time in pod variety. This year we found out this crap developed a severe leak that immersed our kitchen in mold that requireda LOTof money to remediate (my daughters have severe allergies) and I tossed it to go back to a Bosch again. So far the Bosch has been working quite well again, regardless of the soap variety (although the frying and baking pans still require the fancy soap treatment).One thing I didn't see mentioned is the fact the soap has abrasives to scrub the dishes, but perhaps I missed this.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 10:23:28 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 23, 2020, 08:55:05 pmd limonene is awesome, and edible:Quote

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 11:52:26 pm
content: Gees that's lemon or citrus rind (terpene) as a fragrance? Finishwrongly list itas being on the IARC carcinogen list.But it looks like theInternational Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC)is another WHO clown car. Aloe vera is on the list?"There is inadequate evidence in humans for the carcinogenicity of d-limonene.""There is sufficient evidence in experimental animals for the carcinogenicity of d-limonene."http://www.inchem.org/documents/iarc/vol73/73-11.htmlhttps://monographs.iarc.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/mono73-16.pdfKidney tumours/cancer in rats but they have different mechanism not relevant to humans apparently, we just pee it out.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 01:10:57 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on December 23, 2020, 01:26:18 pmYeah. You have to be carefull with dishwashing soap in a dishwashing machine. You'll make that mistake only once. Trust me on that

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 01:33:39 am
content: I mean I assume I am paying a premium on those things because they do the R&D to figure out how those chemicals break down. Or at least I hope so.Unless you wash with pure washing soda you are unlikely to find soap that is really reduced in chemical content. I have my doubts about sniffing vinegar all day as well (as a cheap and natural cleaner).

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 06:15:52 am
content: I like the Bosch brand also, mainly because of the integrated water softener that is not found in most dishwashers in the US. However, it's difficult to find dishwasher salt in the stores here. Luckily, pool salt seems to be the same thing and works wonderfully. I got a 50 pound bag on sale for $5 that should take me a decade to use up.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 12:02:21 pm
content: Interesting! The integrated water softener is standard over here, and it can be adjusted for your local water hardness.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 02:53:42 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on December 24, 2020, 06:15:52 amMy pool is salt water but, just like anything with the name "pool" attached to it is automatically assigend a premium price, I ended up finding the bags for water purifier at Lowe's to be a bit cheaper still. 😁For a dishwasher any option will have a very high ROI - just don't leave the unused salt bag in a moderately moist area as it tends to pack really tightly until it becomes a very heavy boulder... (don't ask me how I know this)

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 03:52:41 pm
content: The water softener in dishwashers use a kind of ion exchange. For regeneration it needs salt - the exact type of salt is not that important. So the salt for a salt water pool is OK, unless there is to much calcium / magnesium in it. Similar road salt may be OK too - may be easier to get in some areas.It depends on the local water quality: in some areas with already soft water there is no need to use it and in other areas with hard water it really helps. In a system without the water softener, one may need a special cleaning agent in areas with hard water.There seem to be also different types of detergents - at least the list of ingredients looks quite different here in Germany.The powder typ detergent can by annoying in a high humidity environment. The prices vary quite a bit, both between brands and also between countries. Last times I checked here the cheaper tablets were not even more expensive anymore.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 07:11:49 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on December 23, 2020, 07:04:46 amMultiple manufacturers make dishwashers with automatic detergent dispensers.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 05:40:03 am
content: Being able to load the whole door could be interesting, could be a trap door on the outside where you pour a large quantity of powder and close the trap door. There would be a dispensing mechanism that can dispense a precise amount and it would send an appropriate amount down a chute then seal, then the door would open on the inside to let it out. The double seal would make sure no humidity from the wash cycle gets into the chute and dispenser. The prewash and normal wash cycle could then be fully controlled by dispensing as little or much as needed.Another approach that would be simpler is to have a form of carousel and you fill all the compartments and it will just turn a few times throughout the wash cycle. Then you are good for a couple cycles before you have to fill it again. I guess at the end of the day it's not like filling it for each wash is that big of a deal so there's not really any incentive to design this.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 08:26:41 am
content: Sodium bicarbonate? That's baking soda and is completely harmless. The other ingredients I don't know, but don't fall into the trap of believing that the names being difficult to pronounce or sounding "chemically" has anything to do with the toxicity of the substance. I see that a lot with the pseudoscience food/health crowd. Fact is if you list the chemical names for the substances that make up a fruit or vegetable it sounds like it could be some nasty industrial chemical.Regarding the pods, we often use them because Costco has them cheap enough that I don't care if I could save a few pennies using powder, and they're very convenient. I think we spend about $25 every 4-5 months or so on a bucket of pods and the dishes come out cleaner than the powder we were using before. I was using the liquid gel (for dishwashers, not liquid dish soap for hand washing) and it works pretty well too. Regardless of which option I go with, the annual expenditure on dish detergent is down in the noise floor.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 09:02:48 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on December 23, 2020, 07:04:46 amI'm guessing because most detergents used in dishwashers are powder-based. Powder tends to cake up with moisture (particularly from the drying cycle) so it's hard to store in anything other than an airtight container for long periods. Rinse aid is liquid and even if a little dilution occurs, it will still dispense.Also, why make things more complicated with more moving parts? The operator can just tip a little detergent in each time. Takes almost no effort.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 01:11:03 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 26, 2020, 09:02:48 amWell, the main reason I can think of, beside convenience, is that people tend to overdose detergents, when given the chance. A properly designed dispenser could dispense just the right amount.With that said: a) tabs/pods reduce this, and b) automatic dispensers so far haven't lived up to the hype.My best friend and my mom each have a Miele (clothes) washer with an automatic detergent dispenser. The European model can use canisters you fill with your own detergents and/or softeners, or with Miele's own detergent system; the US model supports only the Miele detergent system. Miele's system sounds good on paper: it uses two liquids (one detergent, one liquid peroxide bleach) to overcome the problem of oxygen bleach degradation in liquid detergents. (This is why powder detergents are better at whitening: the oxygen bleaches are much more stable in dry form.) But independent performance tests show it doesn't actually work as well as an ordinary powder detergent. :/The problem I see with automatic powder dispensing, whether with clothes washers or dishwashers, is moisture. I reckon it'd be extremely difficult to design a dispenser that is airtight enough to not allow in moisture from the machine, since seals would likely end up with powder on them, dramatically reducing their effectiveness. (Miele sorta does this, with a "powerdisk" powder detergent cartridge. I'm not sure how it's sealed, though, I just know the manuals say to clean the seals when changing the cartridge, and to dry everything well when doing so, lest the detergent clump up.)Where automatic detergent dispensers are completely the norm is in commercial machines. But as you know, the common "tank" style of commercial dishwashers operate on fundamentally different principles from household dishwashers, relying on harsher chemistry and very high temperature wash water (which isn't drained between loads), optimized for newly-soiled dishes, rather than the dried-on foods of household dishes (where dishes may accumulate for days before being run).

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 03:16:18 pm
content: That's why I said gel-type. I don't see the problem in removing one moving part, the wax motor or whatever opens the latch, and replacing it with a gravity feed detergent dispenser. Or I'm sure there's a clever mechanical thingy that lets you use the pressure of the water supply to move things along.Then the dishwasher can use its existing turbidity sensor and dose in more detergent if needed.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 05:12:55 pm
content: Dispensing liquids is easy, as the rinse aid dispenser in every dishwasher demonstrates. But you definitely want it controlled by the MCU, not run by a “dumb” mechanism like a wax motor. (How would it dispense only in the wash phase, and not in the drying phase which gets equally hot?) Modern appliances rely on MCU programs to carefully control their cycles in ways simple mechanical approaches cannot do.Commercial dishwashers (both tank type and “fresh water” type, i.e ones using the same principle as household dishwashers) generally have detergent dispensers available (often standard), and they invariably use liquids, as they’re easy to pump from a jug and are easy to dose accurately. The modified dishwashers sold for laboratory/medical use (e.g. to clean lab ware, dental tools, etc, before sterilizing in an autoclave) also use liquid detergents.P.S. Μy hunch is that the viscosity in dishwasher gels is purely artificial, for marketing and/or convenience purposes. Commercial dishwasher detergent liquids are not particularly viscous.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 11:14:57 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on December 24, 2020, 06:15:52 amBosch dishwashers are nice when they work, extremely quiet. I've had to fix several of them though and they're kind of a pain to work on and at least the ones I worked on had some questionable designs. Most recently I fixed one my friend had, the pump failed and the problem turned out to be the face of the impeller sheared off the backing, I'd never seen that happen before. About a year later he replaced the whole thing because it started leaking somewhere else.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 11:28:34 pm
content: Contrary to Alec's (Technology Connections) comments on Bosch dishwashers, the system is far superior to American dishwashers, in my opinion!Bosch machines use a filter to catch big waste, which means the biggest waste can be siphoned off and cleaned every 30 or so uses (~3 months) into the general waste. This big waste is not macerated and recirculated within the machine, which clogs pipes and adds dirt to dishes being rinsed. You should remove big waste from dishes before loading them; I think this is true of all dishwashers. And while pre-rinsing is a waste of time (why people still do this baffles me), you should make some effort to take the largest waste off the plates as the machines are not designed to remove these effectively.The Bosch dishwashers (and many other European dishwashers) do support a cold pre-wash, by means of putting some detergent in the bottom of the tub. However, there is probably no need. The first thing the machine does is rinse the dishes with cold water. This cold water rinse is used to remove initial dirt and contamination from the dishes and a turbidity sensor then measures how dirty this pre-rinse water is. If it is dirtier, then the subsequent cycles are extended and the heat time is increased, which while not exactly the same as dosing the dishes with more detergent gives the detergent more time to work. This is then followed by the hot rinse cycle where hot water is used to remove detergent from the plates, and as part of the drying cycle the plates are made to get as hot as practical with the cold, insulated stainless steel tub acting to dry the plates. This is remarkably effective: no second heating element is used (only the water heater) and, unlike systems with that heating element, there is no risk of melting plastic plates, utensils etc., as they are not directly exposed to the element, but plates come out almost perfectly dry at least when the machine has been allowed to run overnight and is unloaded in the morning.The machine is also very water-efficient, on its economy setting using only 6 litres of water in total, which is some 1/10th of what an average hand-washer uses.I have never had any problem with the Finish tablets myself, and in the UK I can purchase 144 tablets (2x72pk) for about £12 including VAT, or around 9p/wash. The dishwasher itself uses 1.4kWh of electricity on the 'Intensive 70C' setting which at standard rates is ~2x the tablet cost; I however run the dishwasher whenever possible during my 5 hour off-peak period where electricity is 5.5p/kWh.I have actually found poorer results from other tablets, but admittedly haven't tried powder detergents in this particular machine.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 01:37:14 am
content: Yeah you should not just put a plate in there straight after eating off it, at very least clear off the worst of it. I'm one of those people that pre rinse but it's just faster and gets rid of the worst, and it won't smell while it sits in the machine as I may only run a cycle like once a week.Though I was thinking it's probably not a bad idea to run a cycle near empty once in a while as the cycle will kind of act as a way to clean the machine itself, if there is any build up within the pipes. You can buy special tablets for that, not sure if they are worthwhile to use or just a gimmick. I have a fairly plain jane dishwasher and it's been a bit over 10 years and it's still going strong.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:30:47 am
content: I have a saying: "dishwashers are not garbage disposals". However the lines are blurred in some countries where dishwashers seem to be built with impellers/blades to churn food.Either way, if you have one of these machines, it still doesn't hurt to get the solid bits off first (don't be a lazy prick), that and with regular cleaning, it should last for many years.I have a model that has a fine filter that traps food particles. I clean it about once per week (if not more often). It gets really gross if you leave it. I then run an actual dishwasher cleaner (or a cap-full of trisodium phosphate) while empty once a month to help clear any built up fats and oils in the plumbing.Dishwasher's aren't magic. The waste doesn't just disappear. For the same reason, you wouldn't throw food or fats/oils straight down the sink. Eventually you, or someone downstream from you will have a major problem.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 06:59:39 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on December 23, 2020, 07:04:46 amI want one. I have automatic dosing on my laundry washer and it is perfect. Setup the milliliters based on your water hardness once, and just let it do it's job.Refill your favorite liquid when it's empty. None of the "juicero" fear bottles people are afraid of.Some vendor will come around and will start selling pre-wash capsules.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 08:31:03 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 28, 2020, 05:30:47 amWhy shouldn't they be garbage disposals? Mine has blades that grind up bits of food and dispose of them, it doesn't work as well as the Insinkerator disposal in my kitchen sink, I wouldn't throw a plate in there that still had a bunch of food on it but I don't wash the dishes by hand before I put them in, I have a dishwasher precisely so that I don't have to wash by hand. It works very well, dirty dishes go in and they come out sparkling clean. It's far from the quietest dishwasher I've used but it works as well as any I've tried. Got it for free too when it was brand new, someone bought a house that had a brand new dishwasher and decided they wanted all stainless appliances back when that was all the rage. The dishwasher was white which is my preference anyway so I was happy to haul it away. That was around 12 years ago.I put almost all of my food scraps straight into the sink, the disposal shreds them up and they end up with the solids in the sewage treatment plant. In a sense they do just go away, they decompose along with all the poop as microorganisms convert it back into nutrient rich soil.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 10:50:38 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on December 28, 2020, 01:37:14 amThey make dishwasher maintenance cleaners specifically for that purpose. On modern dishwashers with heat exchangers, using this is critical to machine longevity.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 10:57:12 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 27, 2020, 11:14:57 pmTotally agree. I have a Bosch and the door no longer stays up. First time that broke, it was because the spring-and-cord assembly used cord molded into a plastic anchor which breaks. Replaced under warranty (which ended up being a separate fiasco). Years later, it broke again, but this time, because the pulley the cord wraps around snapped off — yup, it, too is anchored in plastic. Warranty expired, the repairman fixed it by driving a bolt through, since the “real” fix would involve replacing the entire plastic base of the machine, which would cost nearly as much in labor as the machine was worth. That fix failed a year or two later, and I’ve not bothered telling the apartment management, as it doesn’t bother me enough to want to deal with it.Upshot is, while I fundamentally like the machine, I wouldn’t buy one, as they’ve simply cut too many corners.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 11:01:12 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on December 28, 2020, 06:59:39 amWhat’s weird is that Miele (I’m assuming yours is a Miele?) allows you to fill your own canisters on European models, while US models are indeed locked to their TwinDos “UltraPhase” detergents. Nothing stopping you from physically inserting a canister filled with something else, and you can tweak the amounts, but the firmware won’t let you select what it is. (If I had a European one, I’d simply have one dispenser with my everyday detergent and the other with fabric softener.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 11:13:23 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 28, 2020, 08:31:03 amWell one reason is that garbage disposals areinsanityto begin with. It makes no sense to burden the sewage system with food scraps it was never intended to handle. It’s not that it can’t handle themat all, but it wasn’t designed for it. However, new wastewater treatment plants designed to produce and capture biogas actually benefit from garbage disposals, so the situation may change in the long run.Nowhere outside of USA has significant use of garbage disposals. We may see this change due to the biogas aspect.As for not handwashing before putting in the dishwasher, you’re absolutely correct on that. In fact, the glass etching so many people experience is in part due to the dishes being too clean. With no food left to dissolve, the detergent ends up attacking the glass. I do what the experts say: scrape but don’t rinse.My stepdad used to literally scrub the dishes (albeit without soap) before putting them in the dishwasher. All the glasses looked like cotton candy. I eventually talked sense into him and my mom, and the new glasses still look fine years later.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 01:34:22 am
content: Well, FWIW, I bought the cheapest powder detergent I could find, and it does seem to work better. And for some reason the rinse aid seems to work better too, finally no puddles in the bottom of cups.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 02:08:29 am
content: Useless information corner:-German & Australian dishwashers have different operating programs.A short term job I had a few years back consisted of opening up cartons, unscrewing a panel from the dryer, & reprogramming it for Oz.(they gave us a "magic box" that we plugged into an internal connector to do this).Apparently, the factory stuffed up, so they paid for our time.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 02:08:07 pm
content: Very common. I guess it has to do with regulatory issues (like the EU's standardized "eco" cycles), and of course feature differentiation.For example, my mom (here in Switzerland) and my best friend in USA both happened to buy Miele washing machines around the same time (so they're the same generation machines). Both washers have the TwinDos automatic dispensing system. Both machines will work using Miele's own detergent cartridges (a special system with detergent in "Phase 1", and peroxide bleach in "Phase 2", so it's not just ordinary detergent), while the European machine also supports using customer-fillable cartridges. The TwinDos hardware is identical, it's purely the software having a menu to let you program it (e.g. regular detergent in slot 1, softener in slot 2, or regular in 1, delicate in 2, etc., and letting you set how many ml to dispense.). Kinda irritating.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 03:58:51 pm
content: I wonder how long it takes for the capsules to dissolve? I mean when the powder detergent is dispensed it must dissolve almost instantly and starts washing. The pouches must take time to reach full strength and take away cleaning time from the cycle?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 10:09:21 pm
content: A colleague of mine has a washing machine from Bosch with six cotton presets: the standard 30C, 40C, 60C, and 90C ones, then two ones with the 'eco tag' symbol next to them, 40C and 60C.The 'eco tag' ones are the ones compliant with the EU standard and the machine will achieve its greatest efficiency in those modes, but one wonders how many customers really know the difference between those settings and just use the plain setting, thinking the tag means something 'bad'? (In some senses, their instinct may be correct, as the eco profile likely isn't as good as cleaning as other profiles...)

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 10:27:58 pm
content: So much trouble to wash a dish or two.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 10:35:29 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on December 29, 2020, 10:27:58 pmWell, this is the forum where people debate for months the best way to measure a signal or two...

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 10:53:46 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 27, 2020, 11:28:34 pmHe didn't give the impression to me that one system is clearly superior. But anyway I agree, filter system is better. The issue is consumers don't want to perform basic maintenance. So the filter will fully clog after ~12 months and then customer will complain to the manufacturer that their dishwasher stopped working. Instead of with the macerator that clog or self destruct after ~3 years at which point, customer will buy a new dishwasher or pay someone to come clean it out, less calls to the manufacturer.Quote from: tooki on December 28, 2020, 11:13:23 amCan't see it changing, too many issues with fats clogging up sewer pipes:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FatbergAn eco friendly city would have a food/organic waste pickup stream:https://environmentvictoria.org.au/resource/organic-waste/

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 11:39:31 pm
content: Our garden waste is collected every 2 weeks here, even in winter, as you are supposed to put your food waste into the garden waste bin. It's then made into compost which is used for local farms and occasionally sold in DIY shops nearby. Seems like a good idea to me.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 01:03:06 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 28, 2020, 11:13:23 amMaybe it's just a cultural thing? Everyone has a garbage disposal here, even apartments. Occasionally you see a house built in the 1950s or earlier that doesn't but it's pretty rare, the Insinkerator is as ubiquitous as the microwave oven, common enough that the brand name has become a colloquial term like Kleenex or Hoover to describe similar units made by other companies. The house I grew up in had a septic tank so my dad always discouraged using the disposal for anything other than crumbs but I've never heard anyone suggest there was any issue with them in homes that are on a sewer connection. I suppose it could be an issue if you produced a tremendous amount of food waste but for the occasional off-cuts, scraps and crumbs I don't see it being an issue. I have a compost pile out in the corner of my yard where I dump grass clippings and stuff I prune off the trees so occasionally if something like a whole fruit or vegetable goes bad I'll toss it in that pile but I can't be bothered to trek outside for small scraps so into the disposal it goes. My mom used to keep a compost bucket in the kitchen sink, still does in fact and I've always hated it. Even with a lid on it attracts fruit flies and if you open the thing to put something in it stinks up the whole kitchen, blech. Probably would be ok if it was emptied daily but that didn't happen.We can get yard/food waste service here too but it costs a significant amount extra on top of garbage pickup, at least our recycling is free. There's a ravine at the edge of my back yard so for me it has always worked to have the compost pile back there, it helps compensate for the erosion that takes place.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 01:09:17 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 29, 2020, 10:09:21 pmProbably most of them. My washer has a bunch of settings I never touch, and my dryer has a fancy continuous temperature adjustment slider I never mess with either, except when it burned out and I had to replace it.On that note, it's a rather stupid design. I assumed it did something like measure the temperature of the air flowing through the dryer and cycle the heating element accordingly with an electronic control but no, it's nothing more than a potentiometer connected directly to mains voltage that is in series with a power resistor attached to the bimetal thermostat that regulates the element temperature. Turning down the slider increases the current through the resistor which heats up the thermostat, indirectly reducing the heater temperature.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 01:15:13 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on December 29, 2020, 03:58:51 pmIt wouldn't be too hard to do a scientific test to find out. I don't think it's significant though, the pouches dissolve very quickly, you have to remember to dry your hands before handling them or they start to get gooey. Whatever the case, the pouches I've been using result in very clean dishes, maybe that's due to having exactly the right quantity of detergent, maybe it's due to the composition of the detergent, maybe something else or maybe a combination of things.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 02:58:42 am
content: I agree the coating gets gooey quickly, but the puck inside? Don't know. Too lazy. Let Alec test it.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 06:11:13 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on December 30, 2020, 02:58:42 amI suspect being sprayed by pressurized hot water breaks it open pretty quickly. The remnants may take a few minutes to dissolve after releasing the detergent.But yeah, I will wait for TC to test it.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 06:27:03 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on December 29, 2020, 10:53:46 pmI thought that was mostly about the marketing of disposable wipes as "flushable" which they most certainly are not? Obviously oil and grease are a problem as well, but I always assumed that was people who just poured their frying pan of oil or bacon grease directly into the sink rather than use of garbage disposals. I haven't heard any claims that the US has dramatically more fatbergs than other industrialized countries, despite our use of garbage disposals, but perhaps that is just because most of our sewers are newer and in better condition than those in the London.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 05:28:37 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 30, 2020, 01:03:06 amWiki says about 50% of US homes have garbage disposals. I never had a place with one. But yeah, I think it is cultural. Swiss people have never heard of them, they’re absolutely shocked when they visit USA and see them for the first time! :pQuote from: thm_w on December 29, 2020, 10:53:46 pmUmmmm... what? Bosch dishwashers work like pretty much every European dishwasher: filter screens of various mesh sizes are placed ahead of the recirculating pump, such that debris is trapped and doesn’t clog the spray arms. Then, when draining, water back-flows across the screens, releasing the debris into the wastewater, where it is pumped out. Only massively large debris like stays behind. Nothing to do with siphons. (Stuff like paper jar labels will sometimes be caught on the outer mesh strainer.)The fine mesh filter needs to be cleaned periodically, definitely far more often than yearly! I do it about every two months, since I live alone and don’t need to run it super frequently.I follow the rule of “scrape, but don’t rinse” that is recommended by experts.Quote from: thm_w on December 29, 2020, 10:53:46 pmThat is not a hypothetical. The wiki article mentions a Swedish town that is encouraging people to get garbage disposals to improve the yield of their new biogas wastewater treatment plant. It being Sweden, I’m pretty sure they already have robust organic waste recovery.And there’s no correlation between fatbergs and disposal waste, as far as I’ve been able to find. In my experience, most people only use them for vegetable waste, not for greasy meat scraps, since you can’t but bones into them anyway.Quote from: ejeffrey on December 30, 2020, 06:27:03 amYeah, fatbergs are thanks to “flushable” wipes. I find it appalling that the manufacturers are allowed to make that claim, when they demonstrably do not dissolve in water. (And why would they? They’re engineered for long-term storage in aqueous cleanser, after all!) I’m not against the wipes, I am just baffled at why the manufacturers are so vehemently opposed to just saying “do not flush, throw into trash” on the package, like baby wipes.FYI, while pouring grease down the drain is a huge no-no, it’s not the source of most of the fat in sewage. Most of it mundanely comes from dishwashing, because even what’s dissolved with soap eventually separates out again, and the chemical reactions with soaps and cleaners cause the fats to solidify into waxy substances.As for bacon grease, I wish they sold the grease coagulant that’s apparently commonplace in Japan: you just add some granules to the grease in the pan, and a few minutes later it’s a gel you can toss in the trash with no mess!!This reminds me that I have a few bottles of used frying oil that I need to take to the recycling... and all the other recyclables too... sigh...

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 05:39:16 pm
content: I'd rather my food scraps go through the sewage system and end up as viable biomass for creating energy etc than into my household trash and end up in a landfill. I dump a bowel load of my own material into the sewer, a few vegetable scraps that didn't make it to my dinner plate isn't any different.I used to live on land where I could compost material but not anymore. I could "save" my scraps and take them to the local recycling place but then I'd have to get in my car and waste resources...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 06:13:32 pm
content: Over here we have a separate trash can for bio-waste (brown trash can). Based on the municipality the bio-waste is used for bio-gas (to run power generators) or for compost. And people with a garden and living in rural areas usually also have a compost heap or box.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 09:15:48 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on December 30, 2020, 05:39:16 pmI don't think it is anything to do with the sewage system as such, more the style of plumbing that is common in the houses.The diameter of the pipe in the kitchen and toilet is different. Kitchen sinks are often connected to much smaller diameter pipes that the ones in the toilets, so they clog much easier, especially if there is any sort of bend or poor gradient somewhere. And I can tell you, having to clear a clog somewhere deep in the wall because some idiot keeps pouring grease or food leftovers down the drain is not fun. That's why you will find removable filters in most kitchen sinks in Europe that are meant to catch that.Most European houses don't have plumbing dimensioned for solid waste except in the bathrooms.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 09:26:09 pm
content: FWIW, the first generation of lower volume flush toilets in the US were aptly described by their intended function. i.e., full of sh!t.2 out of 3 times all the ones where I used to live would not flush my "efforts" away and would block. I had to fill a large saucepan full of hot water (with some soap) and pour it in from a height of about 5 feet TWICE at least to clear the toilet. Since I was on a septic system, I couldn't keep using chemicals. And the shape of the bowl meant that plungers were useless.*This* is a toilet...

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 09:31:51 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 30, 2020, 01:09:17 amThe nice thing about US washers (older ones, anway) is you can literally get inside to repair them:

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 09:33:14 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 30, 2020, 05:28:37 pmNot sure what the confusion is. Yes the filter needs to be cleaned often, most people in north america would hate a product designed in this way, which is why they tend to sell the "grinder" style more here.QuoteWe have constant ads locally about not pouring food, specifically fats like yogurt, down the drain as its causing problems for the local water department. Using a garbage disposal encourages putting all kinds of food types into the sewer system (but you are right, it can be lower fat). Its probably not a good idea to dump a bunch of grease in the dishwasher either, better scrape it into the compost.Perhaps the swedish sewer system is better built, and their residents are better at not flushing non-flushable material?https://niagarafalls.ca/city-hall/municipal-works/fat-oil-grease.aspxhttps://sustain.ubc.ca/sites/default/files/2018-27%20Estimating%20the%20impact%20of%20residential%20fats%2C%20oil%20and%20grease%20on%20wastewater%20system_Vazquez%20Perez.pdfhttps://www.baltimoresun.com/citypaper/bcp-grease-patrol-the-city-steps-up-enforcement-on-restaurants-dumping-grease-in-the-sewers-20150317-story.htmlQuoteQuote

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 10:04:06 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on December 29, 2020, 10:53:46 pmThis entire discussion is mystifying to me. My dishwasher uses a filter, not a "grinder", but it washes the filter off itself using a spray nozzle and it seldom needs to be cleaned. It's older than I am and hasn't required repair in decades. I also have never used "rinse aid" and don't see any reason to do so.You should not pre-rinse your dishes and you should never run the dishwasher empty using detergent. The detergent is alkaline and it will ruin the metal and rubber inside the machine if there is no grease for it to attack. Cleaning the machine itself should be done using a mild acid like vinegar or citric acid.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 10:32:22 pm
content: Quote from: helius on December 30, 2020, 10:04:06 pmThat makes no sense.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 10:50:15 pm
content: Is 'food waste' in the sewer system a problem if a dishwasher has broken down much of that waste via the tablet? I wonder how significant the initial rinse is, because as far as I know that is dumped straight into the drain, before the main hot wash with the tablet. So there could be some benefit to having a small amount of detergent there as it would reduce the risk of clogging up pipes, etc.Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on December 30, 2020, 10:32:22 pmYes, especially given the machine is usually constructed from a stainless steel tub. If it was of aluminium construction, then there would be a risk, but dishwasher manufacturers aren't stupid and wouldn't build their machines from a material that is attacked by the tablet.Your cutlery doesn't rust away when using a dishwasher tablet, so the machine itself will be fine with the tablet alone.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2020, 02:50:27 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on December 30, 2020, 09:26:09 pmIs it just me or this thread is starting to stink?Happy new year everyone!

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2020, 06:51:30 pm
content: Yeah, really, what *do* people use their dishwashers for? Even in my drunkest days I wouldn't have used the dishwasher for that...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2021, 12:42:09 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on December 30, 2020, 09:33:14 pmThe “confusion” was your rather incorrect description of how a Bosch dishwasher works.And it’s not as though we are talking about major debris. Very little gets stuck in the filters. As helius and I have said, the filters are largely self-cleaning.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 04:31:39 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 30, 2020, 05:28:37 pmI occasionally put small bits of meat down mine, but it's just scraps, most of the meat gets eaten, and any larger waste such as stuff that spoils goes into the garbage can because it stinks. I suppose it's theoretically possible that excess food waste going into the sewer could be an issue but I don't see how it's any worse than toilet paper and it certainly isn't in the same class as those stupid wipes that people flush. There is an ample supply of bacteria in the sewer that is happy to feast on the ground up food scraps and the result is not much different than poop. The stuff that comes out of a garbage disposal is a pulverized slurry that has a tremendous amount of surface area for any organisms that want to consume it. Despite being called a "garbage" disposal it's not for disposing of garbage, it's for disposing of food scraps so you don't have to mess with a strainer or pick bits of gross food bits out of the drain after cleaning the dishes.Apparently you can get toilets that have a garbage disposal like mechanism in them for installations where the toilet is located below the sewer line out of the building, I've never personally seen one though. Some RV and marine toilets have a similar mechanism to grind up the waste as it has to be pumped out of a holding tank at some point.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 04:34:37 am
content: Quote from: james_s on January 13, 2021, 04:31:39 amThat's called a macerator. Actually, so is your garbage disposal.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 07:00:16 am
content: Quote from: janoc on December 30, 2020, 09:15:48 pmA garbage disposal acts like a centrifugal pump. If I don't run mine for a while eventually the p-trap will get clogged with crumbs and other various muck that settles out. Hit the switch on the disposal for a second or so and whoosh, the pipe is flushed out clean. I have never in my life had to disassemble a kitchen sink drain to clean out a clog. Our drain plumbing has cleanout fittings in a few strategic places in case something does get clogged, they look a bit like a Y coupling with a screw in cap on one side. Only time I've seen one used was when my little brother flushed a toy down the toilet and it got stuck in the pipe but it's nice to know that the access fittings are there.

author: xmo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 05:19:13 pm
content: Aren't modern appliances awesome? I have an LG dishwasher - inverter direct drive - nice and quiet - touch controls with a zillion choices.It does a great job of getting the dishes clean too. That is, provided that you pick the longest, heavy cleaning cycle and the water pre-heat. Oh, and as long as you wash everything thoroughly in the sink before you put it in the dishwasher. Then most of your stuff comes out clean.The good news is you get re-acquainted with your stuff as you closely inspect each item as you unload the machine.Not like my old Kitchenaid. Load it, add detergent, hit start. Wait till done, unload. Boring.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 05:24:58 pm
content: That’s how my modern Bosch machine works: put stuff in, it comes out clean. The quality of a dishwasher’s results has little to do with whether it’s new or old, but whether it’s a good design or a bad one.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 05:30:56 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 13, 2021, 05:24:58 pmUnfortunately, as with many consumer goods, there's a weak negative correlation.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 05:41:41 pm
content: Crap dishwasher then. Our Bosch is about 7 years old and, provided I'm not stupid enough to put tall utensils in the cutlery basket which blocks the upper spray arm from rotating, it's never done me wrong. Dishes come out perfectly clean.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 06:33:13 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on January 13, 2021, 05:30:56 pmPerhaps, but I’m notentirelyconvinced that’s true. There’s a certain survivor bias, in that we remember the models that lasted forever, and not the ones that failed comparatively quickly. Not to mention that a lot of old products required frequent maintenance. Consider how TV repairmen used to be a thing, one whose services were needed often enough to get to know the guy. Over time, the reliability increased a lot, and combined with the ever-falling cost of manufacture, it became uneconomical to even perform repairs, so we don’t bother designing them with repairability in mind. (I don’t necessarily agree with that approach, but here we are.)And of course, the other thing is that even if the durability of an appliance is less than in the past, so is the price. A good friend of mine bought his first washing machine to go in his new home back in 1980. He says it was the base model and cost either $300 or $400. (I forget which number at the moment.) Around 2005 he replaced the washer, and at that point you could buy a base model washer for $300. But if you account for inflation, that’s a huge difference in price: that’d be just $127 in 1980 dollars. When we are talking about the retail price being literally around 1/3, is it actually reasonable to expect there to be no compromises in the construction?

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 08:53:27 pm
content: The spinny water spouts turn in a circle. Why are the racks set on a rectangular grid?Shouldn't the racks be shaped like thisAll my cups should be facing inwards to get maximum spray, as well as the plates...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 09:03:15 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on January 18, 2021, 08:53:27 pmSome early dishwashers were like that:https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2963252/Pretty-pink-Inside-immaculate-Chicago-kitchen-frozen-time-abandoned-1962.htmlMy guess is that a) it doesn't allow as many dishes to be loaded, and b) perhaps makes it too easy for dishes to totally block each other?

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2021, 02:30:41 pm
content: Honestly, given the capacity, I'd just do it all by hand (which would be much faster).

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2021, 02:37:42 pm
content: 'Bob' might make a decent PCB board washer.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2021, 02:54:04 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on January 23, 2021, 02:37:42 pmAbsolutely! Hacking needless home appliances into lab equipment is fun and saves a lot of money, like upcycling a cheap mini oven into a reflow oven.

author: SpecialK
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2021, 02:58:10 pm
content: That Bob looks decent. However, £349 is about $610 CAD for which I could get a decent full size machine.The bigger problem for North America is we only have 1875W available at the outlet unlike European's that have 3120W available. Since you aren't getting water from the hot water faucet, you would need to heat that 3 or 4 litres from room temperature.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2021, 03:13:01 pm
content: Quote from: madires on January 23, 2021, 02:54:04 pmWhat's interesting in that regard is the fact that its firmware lets you program your own cycles, so it would theoretically be trivial to turn it into a PCB washer!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2021, 03:21:44 pm
content: Quote from: SpecialK on January 23, 2021, 02:58:10 pmBut of course that's not what it's competing against. It's not for people who have a kitchen that can accommodate a full-size dishwasher, it's for people whodon't.Quote from: SpecialK on January 23, 2021, 02:58:10 pmThe manual says its maximum power rating is 1000W, so this wouldn't be any kind of limitation, should they choose to add a 120V model.Since it's only using a maximum of 4L per cycle in total, it means it's probably using a maximum of about 1 liter per phase, which wouldn't take terribly long to heat up at 1000W, especially since it won't be taking it all the way to boiling.Quote from: SpecialK on January 23, 2021, 02:58:10 pmIt does say that you can fill the tank with hot water (up to 60C), possibly it could be connected to hot water if one so desired.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2021, 03:49:14 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 23, 2021, 03:13:01 pmthers a uv option,so not only washing the boards but developing them to.Wonder if it can cope with etching fluid instead of water?

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2021, 07:22:04 pm
content: My friend has one of thesehttps://www.danby.com/en-us/products/kitchen-en-us/ddw621wdb/Pretty sure it's smaller, but it's been a while since I visited there, and I'm too lazy to rewatch the video for dimensions...

author: SpecialK
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2021, 09:53:43 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on January 23, 2021, 07:22:04 pmWas just browsing Amazon and Canadian Tire. Those seem to be well regarded and only around $300 CDN. Might need one for the garage or electronics bench

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 12:52:54 am
content: Quote from: SpecialK on January 23, 2021, 02:58:10 pmThe maximum load for an appliance on a non-dedicated circuit is 1500W.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 03:16:18 am
content: Quote from: helius on January 24, 2021, 12:52:54 amThat doesn't make SpecialK's statement incorrect for a 15A circuit.Your number is a recommendation for a continuous load appliance (stuff that runs for hours at a time which should be treated as 125% of it's nominal value). However a dishwasher really isn't a continuous load appliance. Of course it's also true that you have to consider other appliances on the same circuit, especially things you can't avoid using like the refrigerator.However, since we're talking about a kitchen appliance, it should be noted that kitchens tend to have 20A circuits in the US, at least for houses built in the last 60+ years.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 03:36:10 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on January 23, 2021, 03:49:14 pmIt’s a UV-C option, which is the wrong wavelength for board development, which apparently is optimized for 365-395nm typically.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 03:57:39 pm
content: You got strange ideas about making you own PCBs!I use UV-A to transfer the PCB layout to the photoresist and sodium hydroxide for developing the photoresist afterwards.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 04:05:10 pm
content: Quote from: madires on January 24, 2021, 03:57:39 pmPlease use the “quote” function so we know who you’re responding to... (I assume you’re not talking to me, since I did not suggest using it for PCB developing.)

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 04:17:50 pm
content: I meant you both, i.e. themadhippy and tooki.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 06:13:48 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on January 23, 2021, 03:49:14 pmFrom bad experience, I can say there are FEW materials that can stand ferric chloride! I built a spray etcher many years ago. the etchant ate nylon screws that held the pump together, turned vinyl hoses into a gummy mess, and ate the magnetic coupling in the pump. Not to mention, of course eating practically any metal except pure titanium.Plexiglas (acrylic) was about the only thing it didn't seem to harm, whihc was what the bulk of the machine was made of.Jon

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 06:20:11 pm
content: Quote from: SpecialK on January 23, 2021, 02:58:10 pmMy Bosch dishwasher only has a 2100W heating element - that's not much more than the capacity of an American outlet. It runs from cold water and gets to 70C.Since the water is recycled through the machine there is little need for a powerful heating element - but a more powerful element will allow the dishwasher to get to temperature more quickly.Regarding dish locations in a dishwasher, I read an interesting paper (only parts, this guy did his whole PhD thesis on dishwashers!) ...https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/6590/9/PerezMohedano16EngD_sizereduced.pdfBroadly speaking, it's better to load more heavily soiled dishes towards the middle of the machine. I've been using this technique for some time. It's not failed me yet. The bottom rack also likely has slightly higher pressure, as the pump is not fighting gravity as much to get water up there, so I would expect the spray pressure to be a little better, so the most soiled items go on the bottom rack.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 06:24:44 pm
content: Quote from: madires on January 24, 2021, 04:17:50 pmPlease explain, then, what “strange” ideas I have about PCB making, since I didn’t sayanythingabout the topic other than the fact that UV-C isn’t appropriate for exposing resist.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 06:29:50 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on January 24, 2021, 03:16:18 amThe fridge receptacle is required to be on its own dedicated circuit.I understand what you're saying though, but a 1000W dishwasher is no different than plugging in a 1500W toaster or deep fryer or something. Most kitchens built in the past 50-60 years are going to have at least a couple circuits available for "heating" appliances, even in most of the oldest, smallest examples.When specifically wiring for a fixed-mount dishwasher it has pretty much always been recommended best practice in north America to run a 12ga to the dishwasher, even if the originally installed model needs less and you even use a 15A breaker. That way even the ones with beefy heating elements in them can be used later if desired, with at most a breaker change no actual rewiring required. You could even go to a 240v unit if future requirements dictated.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 07:27:15 pm
content: Quote from: drussell on January 24, 2021, 06:29:50 pmMaybe in Canada, because in the houses that I lived here in the US... What a mess.Quite different than Brasil, where houses above a certain area were required to completely segregate outlets from lighting circuits and built-in appliances (wall aircons, washers, boilers, shower head heaters, etc.).

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 10:15:15 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on January 24, 2021, 07:27:15 pmHuh... you're right. I always thought that one was the same in the US NEC as it is here...Still obviously "best practice," but apparentlystillnot required, even as of the 2020 NEC!Crazy!!

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2021, 01:04:43 am
content: Even the 1950's house I'm living in now has a 20 amp circuit for the kitchen. But only one of them. Everything in the kitchen is on that single circuit, except for ceiling lights. Since I live alone now, that's manageable with a one-major-appliance-at-a-time rule, plus the refrigerator. Stove is gas, so that doesn't count.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2021, 10:08:01 am
content: I have a similar capacity issue in my household. The kitchen and downstairs circuit share 32A. The tumble dryer, dishwasher and washing machine all active use about 28-29A. I also occasionally want to charge my PHEV via a kitchen socket, and I haven't yet put in a wall box for it (didn't seem necessary this time when I moved) so that's another 10A. So I need to balance load carefully especially overnight to avoid tripping circuits.It seems to be now quite common in new UK homes to combine kitchen and downstairs circuits, but it's a mistake IMO, because the kitchen will often be heavily loaded, leaving no spare capacity for e.g. a space heater (when our boiler failed we used one) or vacuum cleaner.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2021, 11:04:42 am
content: QuoteNot really,older house and "cheap throw em up sell em quick" new builds then yea,but putting the kitchen on its own circuit is something thats been recommended for a good few years.It was also not uncommon to put a socket in just for the fridge and freezer on its own circuit that wasn't rcd protected, labeled "not for outdoor use",but now that everything has to be rcd protected thats no longer the case.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2021, 11:13:45 am
content: Over here the dishwasher is wired to the 3-phase outlet meant for the oven when there's no dedicated wall socket.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2021, 12:42:11 pm
content: QuoteAs mentioned before,its pretty rare to find 3 phase in a uk domestic environment,they'd rather give you a single 100A supply than risk letting people loose with 415v.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2021, 02:16:55 pm
content: Yes, I know that ring circuits are standard in the UK. We're limited to 16A per chain which is the rating of the common breaker for households. So we have a 3-phase outlet for the oven, wired directly to the flat's distribution panel. No matter which method you're using, it's about getting the power needed to the outlet.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2021, 02:22:44 pm
content: In the UK, if use of an electric cooker is anticipated, its usual to provide a 32A or 45A radial circuit (240V) to a dedicated connection unit via an isolator often combined with a single BS1363 socket.Seehttps://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/6.5.2.htm

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2021, 03:41:54 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on January 25, 2021, 02:22:44 pmIt's also common to allow this 32A oven circuit to support a 13A plug and 9kW of hobs+oven, I think it allows up to 11kW loading on what is a 7.2kW circuit, based on the assumption that no one will use all fully loaded at once. But my mother had her microwave connected to the cooker socket which is one of those Panasonic 3kW convection-turbo ovens (I gave her my old one) which meant the cooker circuit breaker would clatter rather loudly when she was using that at the same time as the hobs!

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2021, 04:26:49 pm
content: That's why there's a trend to either *NOT* provide a 13A socket on a 32A circuit or provide a 45A circuit, which always allows up to 7.8KW 'flat-out' for the cooker (or 10.8KW if 45A with no 13A socket), and as the rings and oven are regulated, usually by 'bang-bang' controllers, its rare to have all rings and the oven element drawing current simultaneously except for a few minutes during warmup if you turn them all on at the same time.If course if the customer isn't a penny squeezing idiot, a reputable electrician doing a new install or replacing the feed cable, will probably recommend a 45A circuit breaker and 10mm2cable, especially if a double oven cooker is to be installed or if an isolator with auxiliary 13A socket is to be fitted. Use a long chain of contractors where you don't even get to talk to the electrician and haggle on the price and you'll usually get the bare code compliant minimum and occasionally a deficient bodge job with a bogus certificate.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2021, 04:33:16 pm
content: QuoteThe onsite guide to the regs gives a figure of 15kw if protected by a 30/32A device which fits with the diversity allowed on a cooker circuit which is the first 10A of the rated current plus 30% of the remainder and another 5A if a socket is built into the cooker control unit. One quirk, which is a throwback to the days of rewirable fuses, is the use of 6mm2for a 32A circuit, 4mm2on a mcb is perfectly within the regs,but if you dare to do it every so called expert will be calling you a cowboy

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2021, 06:12:04 am
content: I imagine it would work if there was sufficient W/m at the resist. Traditional exposers for resist materials were "actinic" arc lamps, which have very strong peaks at 355 and 385nm. The UV-C lamps made for disinfecting (they really are not designed to sterilize) in dishwashers etc may just not be strong enough.You can see an arc lamp exposing resist on a printing screen in the classic "To Live and Die in L.A." directed by William Friedkin.