Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 03:27:09 pm
content: https://globalcoolingprize.org...because what has been keeping air conditioning inefficient and costly up to now is lack of $3 million and nobody incentivizing and promoting improvements.$3 million competition backed by Sir Richard Branson to create air conditioning that is:have one-fifth of the climate impact of existing air-cooling techoperate under specific material, consumption and maintenance guidelinesbe affordableWhy does this feel a lot like that make water from thin air competition to try to solve world's drinking water problem in poor countries?. My dad is an HVAC engineer with over 50 years experience in the field... I know the challenges and improvements that have been worked on over past few decades... this stupid "prize" smells like another pile of dog turd. Let's break the laws of thermodynamics!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 03:57:31 pm
content: be all you can be

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 04:03:07 pm
content: Practical and climate-friendly. Where did the contest say it had to be efficient as well? I think the laws of thermodynamics are safe enough.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 04:11:05 pm
content: Using an embedded system like Raspberry Pi with infrared sensors and servos or steppers can direct the cooling (or heating) to only where it's needed. The savings from that can easily be very high.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 04:16:03 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on December 02, 2018, 04:03:07 pmTrue, we don't know how they define all the parameters yet and there is a lot of "wiggle room" in the contest to meet whatever objectives they will eventually decide to make more concrete. To me climate means overall energy use per BTU cooling power but if they include materials, manufacturing, renewability, etc... they can find loopholes. Like make the thing out of bamboo, using a solar-powered or biofuel powered factory, etc. Yes there are tricks but is there really any major revolution in the technology or is this just self-aggrandization by NGO's trying to make the world a better place?Maybe just have a refrigerator with ice-pack infused vests that people don once they enter a building and then deposit back in the fridge when they leave?

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 04:21:44 pm
content: AFAICS modern ACs will go beyond Carnot efficiencies at low load if they improve by 5x.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 04:27:11 pm
content: We just have to suck up the cold out of thin air. Sounds doable with nanotechnolgy and blockchain.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 04:47:36 pm
content: They've tries this before...

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 04:50:27 pm
content: Quote from: edy on December 02, 2018, 04:16:03 pmJust needs a bit more R&D to become a usable device.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 05:39:22 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on December 02, 2018, 04:21:44 pmThe base unit to compare to is not that good. Seems to be power factor of some 3.3 - though no exact conditions are given. Given that they don't get dehumidification this would conclude rather favorable conditions, with not so high temperature and humidity.If in doubt one might have to spend some of the money in reducing the heat load or recovering some cool air going out.So it might still work without breaking the laws of thermodynamics.The simple solution might be just to move some 300 km north and no more air-conditioning is needed.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 06:09:26 pm
content: I'm just playing devil's advocate here... But remember there are plenty of hot countries around the world with modern high tech industrialized societies and brilliant engineers who have been working on this problem for decades. Much of HVAC has become commoditized as a result of diminishing improvements. As far as the competition goes, one of the goals is to make it easy to implement in existing buildings (not require construction and large systems implementations). There are already "cooling pond" reservoirs, shading solutions, central designed systems, etc... But this competition is about a "plug and play" solution that can fit just about any situation where a drop-in window air conditioner is used, which means ultimately it needs to be powered by electricity. I ask again how they can break the laws of thermodynamics or is this using a system of creative "accounting" to offset energy or climate-change use in one place with another?My other devil's advocate statement is these NGO's who collect millions and perhaps billions of dollars from rich donors around the world and come up with creative marketing-wank ideas to show how they are spending their money to improve the world, with only a small fraction going to those causes, while misdirecting our attention while the other hand steals it to fund these organizations and all the people involved (like charities, more money spent on actually getting more money than actual money to the cause they are supporting).

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 06:17:05 pm
content: Some people think that the Laws of science can be broken just like the Laws of man.Drive 65 miles per hour, I can break that law. No parking, I can break that law. The laws of thermodynamics, I can break those laws, they are not etched in stone!

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 06:26:30 pm
content: Quote from: edy on December 02, 2018, 06:09:26 pmThe idea of directing heating and cooling to only where it's needed is often overlooked, while the technology to enable it (most crucially, infrared sensors and embedded systems) has become vastly cheaper in the last decade.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 06:46:20 pm
content: here is a new one, magnetic refrigerators that use Gd. Don't complain about maxwells cold equations, problem solvemachine shown as well as talks of elementhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_refrigerationdetails in video form

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 07:03:09 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 02, 2018, 04:11:05 pmIt won't work because rooms in a home aren't isolated units. Besides that large temperature differences in a home lead to problems with moisture and it is uncomfortable.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 07:10:38 pm
content: Your vest needs a prepaid electricity and water meter too.Otherwise people would free-ride.Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 02, 2018, 04:50:27 pm

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 07:40:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 02, 2018, 07:03:09 pmIt has already been done in new HVAC systems. There's a significant savings by, for example, having the space be at 90F but the indoor unit delivers 75F air pointed where the people are.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 07:56:18 pm
content: Okay, actually reading the contest it's not so much about improving ACs per se (at least not relative to the state of the art, the cut throat priced one they chose as base unit is pretty inefficient).There's a volume limit, but not a dimension limit ... so basically all the entries will add as much flexible PV (low volume) as they can. You are also allowed to use radiative cooling and installation costs don't seem to factor in, so includingSkycoolmight help. You can also reduce the Climate impact simply by reducing the global warming potential of the refrigerant too, so you don't even need to get 5x less power consumption. The really tough problem is the humidity target, but not quite breaking the second law of thermodynamics hard.RMI which inspired this contest actually hasa much better explanationwhere they see these gains coming from. The contest site mentions RMI, but if there's an easy to find link in there I didn't see it.Question is, will consumers even be willing to pay the 2x up front costs for savings down the line? (And to save the environment I guess) I kinda doubt it, government would have to make them.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 08:03:29 pm
content: I am also skeptical on how they will handle legionella.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 08:09:22 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on December 02, 2018, 07:56:18 pmUse some other process for dehumidification, such as a desiccant wheel or calcium chloride cycle regenerated by a solar thermal collector.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 08:10:16 pm
content: Quote from: JoeO on December 02, 2018, 06:17:05 pm

author: electrodacus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 08:14:30 pm
content: The amount of energy needed for cooling is very insignificant anywhere in the world.See the data below base on IEA data. The page is on my presentation about solar PV heating (cooling also possible in same way but not needed for my house).Cooling is just about 3% on average so there are many other places where impact will be much higher like space heating

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 08:17:41 pm
content: Most of the Earth's population is in hotter climates than those named, so if we want their standards of living improve it can quickly become relevant.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 08:19:29 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on December 02, 2018, 08:10:16 pmSounded a bit like one of Hillary Clinton's outburst.They need to build more trees considering the recent wildfires in California.

author: electrodacus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 08:23:21 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on December 02, 2018, 08:17:41 pmThe larger chart represent the average of much more countries than what you see in my presentation and is about 3%US seems to be at 6% still an order of magnitude less than energy used for heating.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 08:28:00 pm
content: In equatorial zones, people will -somehow- have to live around the coastal areas or high on mountains (where its likely cooler) or move closer to the poles - or pay a huge amount of money to the owners of the resource. Or evolve faster, like fungi do. (Not feasible, though) Actually, according to emerging analyses of reptile vs mammalian and avian thermal tolerance and the rates of fungal vs. mammalian evolution, we're in danger of huge increases in invasive fungal infections as average temps anywhere get closer and closer to our body temps. Something similar happened on MIR, because of the high radiation (which increases the rate of mutations, both successful and unsuccessful) and moist and wet conditions. Fungi evolved so fast it became able to eat plastics (electrical wire insulation) and other materials. (causing a fire - part of a chain of events that led to the deorbiting of Mir.)Millions of years ago, during mass extinctions, our and birds high body temperatures saved our warm blooded ancestors from the fate of other species, but pathogenic fungi evolve so much faster than we do that as climates get warmer and more similar to our own internal climate fungi will evolve to be much better at eating us long before we get better at resisting it.if... average global temps in some areas get closer to our body temps.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 08:35:05 pm
content: Space heating at 52%I know in council owned properties back around 1970's in certain cities they used communal boilers and they were only just getting rid of them on refurbishment projects a couple of years ago and they giving the residents their own boiler and I heard they were not happy about it.I went to Amsterdam once and it was cold.A year later when I went back I saw most streets in the city area with floodlights outside the pubs and shops with infrared looking lights and they were giving out lots of heat.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 08:42:42 pm
content: People could wear collars that contained Peltier devices and heat sinks that pressed against their carotid artery with a plug for power that IDed itself when plugged in - a meter on them so they could be billed for the energy they expended staying alive.Must read:The original legal rationale requiring only commercial vendors provide new essentialsif somebody already charges money for them.Water is supposed to become the "white gold" or "Blue gold" of the 21st century, potentially more valuable than any other commodity.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 09:13:42 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on December 02, 2018, 08:42:42 pmWhen they pay for it as a unit rather than a service where the money would go towards recycling and filtering the water.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 10:02:13 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on December 02, 2018, 08:35:05 pmdistrict heating is still very much a thing, here the coal fired power plant can reach 90% efficiency making both electricity and heating, trash incineration and a cement factory also put their waste heat into the system. Apple big new data center is also going to put the waste energy in their cooling into district heating

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 10:14:15 pm
content: With rising temperatures cooling will become more relevant, while heating gets much less important. Another point is rising wealth in hotter countries like China or India. So an affordable HVAC could actually be a bad thingFor cooling it also very much depends on the conditions. It's much easier to cool, if it's not as hot. Also humidity can make a big impact: with high humidity there is additional heat from water condensation. At low humidity one can even use evaporation cooling, if some water is available.It is also important to see the night temperature: in some areas just ventilating at night can do quite a lot.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 03, 2018, 12:43:23 am
content: 5 times improvement on existing mature aircon tech efficiency?Not asking for much...I suspect this will bring out many wacko ideas.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2018, 01:01:38 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 03, 2018, 12:43:23 amThe electrical improvementenvisionedis about two times improvement over the from the wall efficiency of a 3-star Indian minisplit ... which is only COP 3 for cooling from 35C to 27C. COP 6 for 8 degree difference isn't really a problem with existing technology. Fitting it into the price point together with all the other requirements is a bit of a challenge.RMI makes a much better case for the contest than the contest site.PS. well until they said thisQuoteOnly radiative cooling and advanced dehumidification are worth a damn.Skycooldesperately needs better marketing, they should really try to get into this contest somehow, but I kinda doubt they will, why break the habit of staying completely obscure ... a completely impractical solution with the same bloody name gets a TED talk and spammed all over the web, then an academic paper doing pretty much the same thing as them gets into bloody Science. Neither of them even reference Skycool, even though they have had a commercial system for over a decade. Liquid desiccant systems meanwhile fit air-conditioners really nicely. For the rest it's just a question of fitting in a more state of the art AC system and maybe some thin PV panels if there is money left.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2018, 01:17:39 am
content: Its a matter of life or death in parts of india where the temperatures recently have soared to record levels, with the heat drying up the ground rivers ending leaving only parched arroyo where the river once flowed, hundreds of miles from the ocean, leaving crops shriveled and entire villages without water.The last thing they need is a huge power bill on top of it. In rising global temps an air conditioner won't be a luxury, it will be a life support system. Without which unspeakably horrible things will happen.Similarly in the US Southwest. Areas are depleting huge aquifers. Science has recently revealed that not so long ago, we had 100 year long droughts during which time trees grew on the beds of high Sierra lakes. The rains came back abruptly, so rapidly those trees that grew during droughts are still there, hundreds of feet underwater, in some cases these are huge trees, hundreds of feet tall.That means that the US west has been far drier than it has ever been in the time since Europeans came, not that long before then. When we built the cities there we didn't know this but we know it now.Its essential we figure out better, cheaper ways to cool people and provide water in the desert without using up too much energy..

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2018, 01:41:21 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on December 02, 2018, 09:13:42 pmThese are all worth reading. re: waterhttp://www.policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National_Office_Pubs/brief4_1.pdfhttp://www.ciel.org/Publications/GATS_WaterHR_28Oct03.pdfhttps://www.foe.co.uk/sites/default/files/downloads/gats_stealing_water.pdfhttp://members.iinet.net.au/~jenks/GATS_BCg2001.html

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2018, 02:00:52 am
content: Quote from: cdev on December 03, 2018, 01:17:39 amIf the point of air conditioning is to cool *people*, the current implementation of cooling the entire building is hardly the most efficient way to accomplish that goal. Hence why I really like the idea of developing an open hardware device to detect where the people are in the room and direct the cooling at them.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2018, 02:05:02 am
content: Thats a great idea. It makes a real lot of sense to only cool rooms where there are people occupying them, at the very least. Also, we dont have to cool rooms to 72 degrees or even colder. 78 or 80 works just as well. When i run Ac, I set the thermostat to 80. But actually my HRV has made it so I rarely need AC.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2018, 02:59:56 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 03, 2018, 12:43:23 amconsidering everyone says thermodynamics is the most dead engineering field, I think this could bring it some new life. People said mechanicals golden age was over but now with CNC and plastic we can have greatly increased complexity where it would be completely disregarded prior. IMO thermodynamics is still dead as dog shit. Mechanical does not have quite the 'golden age' that lasers and maybe electronics do, as it did 70 years ago, but its still faring alot better.Now, cryogenics is a bit different, and extreme temperatures have limited application other then ceramics, but I think thermal engineering within 300C above zero is super stagnant.All I have is a digital thermostat (really electronics) and rockwool insulation, as far as modern developments lol. Compared to the amount of mechanical and electronic things I have in my house its nothing. The mechanical and electronic aspect of a new refrigerator are amazing (great design of shelves, led lights, humidity control cabinets)but its still a ancient compressor inside of it, no amazing insulation, no solid state or whatever. I am sure if I take the back panel off its gonna be the same thing as 1975. I struggle to imagine it change however

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2018, 01:49:00 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on December 02, 2018, 10:02:13 pmAs long as it's hot enough > 88oC, waste heat could also be used to power an absorption chiller to provide air conditioning.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigeratorI think waste heat usage should be mandatory, whenever practical.The urban heat island effect is also a problem, especially in some cities like London. They should design buildings to be better at keeping the heat in winter and cool in summer.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2018, 05:15:50 pm
content: Hero999,The problem isn't that it makes no sense,its that sharing heating -makes too much senseand so, would be framed by trade agreements as a trade barrier, because it decreases the potential for profit which supposedly commercial firms are now entitled to.Everything has changed in the last few years in that respect. the idea of "universal service obligations" and "public services", where local communities owned utilities or other resources like water in order to make things like electricity and clean water available to ALL, have been jettisoned in favor of new rights given to investors to both commercially exploit all 'markets' to the maximum extent possible and to own a right to any new profitable change continuing in perpetuity (but not its reverse, the people always lose rights and cannot regain them)So, once something is sold at all, it becomes fair game for profiteering, with no limits allowed, except the most minimal ones possible, even in critical areas like energy, banking and health insurance, sell and buy these commodities internationally without government interference.Regulations (which includes any kind of cost sharing measure that reduces the total cost to anybody) must be theleast burdensome necessary to ensure the quality of the service. Burdensome meaning unprofitable to businesses.Inequality is now good, (SARCASM >>>)because after all, part of the pleasure people get from spending lots of money on something like modern health care or a warm or cool home in the winter and summer, respectively is the exclusivity of it, which is based on the fact that others arent getting it. (/SARCASM)(Look up whats allowed and what isnt in indexes like the OECD's STRI (Services Trade Restrictiveness Index)Could some kinds of new rights to essentials like water, primary education, air, and some habitable physical space to occupy within the parameters which sustain life and liquid water be established? The recent attempt to create a right to water for all in the European Union and have all the member states agree on it didn't turn out so well, a red flag that should give people pause. Everything changed with the creation of the WTO, World Bank, OECD, ad the many other so called global economic governance institutions. Countries 'measures' now need to be minimal, structured as to have the least possible impact on trade. That means that new non-conformingmeasuresthatdistort tradehave to be limited to the most extreme cases and - in order to set an example, are only available for limited periods to the poorest countries. When a countries applies to join the WTO often they "require" they give them up. This is kind of like an inside joke, on all of us.Its led by the big countries. Who are so strongly in favor of making the selling of essential any thing becoming corporate rights that in order to trade with them other countries are put under pressure to give them up. Consequently a steady stream of entangling agreements has eroded the 'policy space' of what countries can do in these areas, unless it already existed before these agreements were established and has not been changed in any respect.This might apply in places like Scandinavia Canada that have a long tradition of social services - who have also not allowed any privatization in those areas.Then the old services and rights pre-WTO and pre-other FTAs can remain - by virtue of grandfathering.So generally, any kind of association that makes essentials more affordable for all people is seen as anathema to these ever more aggressive interests and ideologies. Helping the destitute may be okay if its done minimally and for the shortest period of time. As long as nobody who is not entitled to it gets help. Also, rules of every possible kind, that increase prices, like wage and hour laws, safety regulations, etc. are framed as tariffs or trade barriers, and only temporary crutches which the free market will eventually eliminate.Good paper on what needs to be done to carve out space for services.This increasingly applies to things like healthcare, water, education and other "services of general interest". (The new official name in the EU for what used to be called 'public services'.)commercial fQuote from: Hero999 on December 03, 2018, 01:49:00 pmIts as bad or in many cases even worse outside the EU, basically this is a worldwide change put into place because of shifting power as workers become more globalized and less necessary, the balance of power is shifting to supranational corporations. To them, money is everything and anything that impedes profit is a threat. They see the kinds of safety nets that existed in the past to be a slippery slope because of the vanishing nature of the kinds of jobs that employed a lot of people. They see their dominance as directly threatened by democracy because people would just vote to fix things, what they now frame asindirect expropriation.Look that phrase up if you want to understand whats being done. LAws must now serve businesses and investors, particularly international investors.Instead of buying all-risk insurance (commercial risk insurance would be the way to do this) against changing laws and times, as corporations used to do, now they get it free, as taxpayers of countries are liable if their lawmakers change some law and their country gets sued for "lost expected future profits" (This new 'tort' is now sued for in a special forum where countries only exist to be sued, and people don't exist at all except as markets.)Look up Investor State dispute settlement (ISDS) and "indirect expropriation")Also, the so called governmental authority exemption.To so called "Intra-EU BITS" are also informative on this issue. A recent case Achmea is also worth looking at.The situation in the US as far as public knowledge of these issues is even worse than in other countries. probably because we're the country pushing these agreements the most it seems. Things haven't changed much, really. Despite what you read in the media these things are still being promoted. To take advantage of a widespread state of ignorance.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2018, 09:59:02 pm
content: Considering the world is entering into a new mini-ice-age, soon the most efficient form of building cooling will be to open windows.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2018, 09:03:12 am
content: Quote from: cdev on December 03, 2018, 05:15:50 pmNonsense. They could get subsidies and sell the extra heat/cold for a profit.Quote from: TerraHertz on December 03, 2018, 09:59:02 pmBased on what evidence? A load of crap about grand solar minimum you read on the Internet? You do realise that we're close to solar minimum now and that it has little impact on the global temperature?Solar minimum can affect local climates and weather patterns, which is a different matter. For example it increases the chance of a negative winter north Atlantic oscillation, which gives northern Europe and the eastern US a cold winter, but a mild winter in north eastern Canada and Greenland. The net change in temperature over the globe is negligible. It's just warm air moves north, displacing cold air, which moves south.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2018, 10:00:08 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on December 02, 2018, 08:19:29 pmNo, just rake more, like in Finland!

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2018, 12:15:18 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 04, 2018, 09:03:12 amSomeone sounds triggered. Have some more then.* Current solar cycle 24: yes, we're into the low. But that's not the issue. It's the prediction that this is the start of a hundred years+ of 'grand minimum', with overall extremely low Sun activity through several solar cycles. Expected to be at least equivalent to the Maunder Minimum (1645 to 1715).* "Little impact" - ha.https://www.iceagenow.info/greatest-two-year-global-cooling-event-in-100-years-media-ignores-it/It seems you've been ignoring reports of extreme cold weather developing the last couple of years. Still think "snow is a thing of the past"? Boy you're in for a surprise.* This solar minimum story has been building for many years. With your 'ignore the internet' attitude, and that the developing science of how the Sun works and how solar activity affects Earth, being inconsistent with the MSM's AGW narrative, you probably have heard nothing of this. Just in case you can get over your Internet phobia, here's a roughly time-sequential history:http://everist.org/archives/links/__AGW_links.txtRecent developments at the bottom of that. Note I only link-save about a tenth of the AGW-related stories I read.QuoteYou have NO IDEA of the mechanisms. None at all. You could try googling 'solar wind intensity, shielding of cosmic rays, affecting upper atmosphere cloud formation' and variants. Oh, but you'd have to touch that smelly Internet thing. Nevermind.I've no wish or time to debate this. References provided, duty done. Bye.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2018, 01:49:44 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on December 05, 2018, 12:15:18 pmI've read all of that before. I'm a former climate change sceptic.You certainly have no idea. Maunder Minimum did not cause a significant drop in global temperatures. It caused cold winters in one region and mild ones elsewhere.No, I don't think snow is a thing of the past. Far from it. There is some evidence to suggest melting sea ice could cause more extreme cold in the mid latitudes. Weather patterns might change to allow more warm air north, displacing cold air, which slides south.When one region is very cold, another will be much milder than usual. There's only a certain amount of energy in the earth's climate system and it doesn't change rapidly enough to cause global temperatures to change as rapidly as weather. In cold spells of weather over Europe and eastern USA, it's mild over eastern Canada and Greenland. The last time this happened was late February to early March this year, when Europe froze, parts of the Arctic started to thaw!High pressure over Greenland and Scandinavia pushed the jet stream south, causing north easterly winds to push cold air over Europe. On the other side of the high pressure, warm air was sucked up, over the Arctic.https://theconversation.com/beast-from-the-east-and-freakishly-warm-arctic-temperatures-are-no-coincidence-92774http://www.curtisfamily.org.uk/post/beast-from-the-east/I suggest you read up on the basics of meteorology. Keywords: high and low pressure, blocking, North Atlantic Oscillation, jet stream, sudden stratospheric warming and polar vortex.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2018, 01:57:31 pm
content: The more entropy due to whatever cause, it doesn't matter, the morevariability.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2018, 11:21:18 pm
content: Sigh. I wasn't going to continue this, but then you wrote:Quote from: Hero999 on December 05, 2018, 01:49:44 pmThat one phrase "I'm a former climate change sceptic" is a beautiful reveal.NO ONE with even the most superficial knowledge of Earth's climate history, can ever be a 'climate change skeptic.'It's simply not honestly possible, because the Earth's climate changed dramatically and often. Always has and always will, since it's a chaotic system driven by a variable star. An endless chain of ice ages alternating with warm periods (considerably hotter than now), interrupted by random massive extinction events from multiple natural causes. Not to mention that the historical average atmospheric CO2 level during the history of life on Earth is about five times higher than at present. Now is one of the lowest levels of CO2 in Earth's history; not far above general extinction level for plant life. That one detail alone completely blows the AGW bullshit out of the water, and shows it to be a deliberate lie by the originators. So do many other details, like that the CO2 levels historically LAG overall changes in temperature by hundreds of years. Atmospheric CO2 level isn't the driver, it's an effect (via ocean gas solubility variation with ocean temp.)But of course you knew these things didn't you, because you've "read all of that before."Your revealing 'former climate change sceptic' phrase is derived from (and an attempt to validate) the extremely nasty, stupid and dishonest bit of Warmist smear propaganda, calling their critics 'climate change deniers.' Which is:1. Untrue. Critics of the Warmist claims are merely pointing out that CO2 and particularly human-released CO2 has little to zero effect on climate, and also that Earth's average temp and climate varies a LOT for other, natural reasons. It would be healthier for the biosphere for atmospheric CO2 levels to be much higher than now, like 1000 to 2000 ppm.2. Supremely ironic, since it's the AGW crowd who are actually the ones claiming climate change doesn't exist (except when humans force it.) What do you think the 'hockey stick graph' is about? It claims the temperature in the past was flat, but now suddenly rising. Both parts of which are blatant, knowing lies. Since proven to have been based on deliberate data fraud by M. Mann and others.Fraud like this:youtube watch?v=yqZGgaZaXigIs The Global Temperature Record Credible?Just one of countless examples, including quite a lot of proven data fraud from our own Australian bureau of meteorology.If you were familiar with the contents of the CRU emails leaks, you'd have seen these fraudsters actually discussing among themselves how to foist their lies on the world. Don't even try to pretend these people are genuine and honest.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2018, 11:39:11 pm
content: Climate around 65 million years ago was so much warmer than today that the direct ancestors of today's coast redwood and giant sequoia trees grew way north of the Arctic Circle in what used to be a primordial forest, on Ellesmere Island. Now the area is desolate and glaciated, but stumps and fossils remain. More recently the same species, long thought to be extinct, was found still alive, growing in a small area in Hubei, China! And they are really beautiful trees.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metasequoia

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2018, 12:56:07 am
content: people that pollute on a large scale are insane gamblers at best.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2018, 02:00:24 am
content: In the past fungi ruled the Earth. They evolve very quickly.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2018, 11:05:19 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on December 05, 2018, 11:21:18 pmOf course the earth's climate has changed, naturally for millennia. You know what I meant. I used to think AGW wasn't true, but I've changed my mind in light of the overwhelming scientific evidence to support it.Yes CO2has lagged temperature increases in the past, but that doesn't mean that an increase doesn't cause temperature rises. It's a positive feedback mechanism. Rises in temperate will liberate more greenhouse gasses such as CO2, which cause more warming, than what would have happened otherwise.Variation in solar output isn't enough to cause huge changes in temperature.There's no other explanation for the recent, rapid rise in global temperature, other than anthropogenic CO2emissions. I wish it wasn't true but it is. Unfortunately there are so many people with vested interests who want to cover it up.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 01:19:36 am
content: Some view it as a tremendous money making opportunity.Whomever controls the (artificially?) scarce resource can literally name their price. Buy or die.Quote

author: Wan Huang Luo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 02:06:50 am
content: Manmade climate bullshit is bullshit.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 03:01:24 am
content: hmm are you paid by the CCP?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 03:01:58 am
content: A thousand years ago, a few hundred years before the Spanish and other Europeans came, the Southwest US dried up drier than a bone for more than a hundred years. So dry that huge trees grew on the bottoms of what now are huge beautiful deep lakes. And their trunks are still there, standing! (So, the rain must have come back, the drought ended, fairly quickly. And it seems its not the first time that had happened. Even older stumps down there date back even farther.)We can argue all day until we're blue in the face about why this happened but the fact is it happened in the pre-industrial era and it drove most of the First Nations people then in the Four Corners area to move away from the main centers of population in the Chaco Canyon area north to the area along the Salmon River, then up to the easily defensible cliff dwellings at places like Mesa verde, Hovenweep, etc. At some point some moved down to the Valley of Mexico and became the Aztec. Those who stayed likely faced difficult choices and apart from the inhabitants of the pueblos at Acoma/Sky City (Hopi), the Taos area, the Zuni and a few others, most of the people there then likely died or were killed in battles over resources. Some were likely eaten. (Thats what some of the archaeological evidence points to.) Some years later the Navaho (Dineh) came and the population of the area went back up again.The point I am trying to make is that we all need to prepare for all eventualities and behave responsibly and how or if we do that really determines our fitness to lead.Blame game does no good. We should try to make everything we do as frugal and our society as resilient to unpredictable changes as possible.When you look at how much energy and water some people use, its insanely wasteful.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 03:05:16 am
content: fact though is that a small business still pollutes way more then even the most wasteful people.the mentally it 'we are nothing compared to a bigger business'. But your still the #2 worst offender. And you are literally way more capable of changing vs citizens. Businesses have the money, space and technical know how to adjust their carbon footprint easily. It is much harder for a single person or family to change then even a business of 20 people.However its alsomucheasier for 20 people to defend their cash flows then it is for an ordinary person.Not to mention changes can be tested and adjusted by competent people in business and then be easily adapted by citizens.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 03:19:45 am
content: Coppercone2, we never got the memo.But, everything has changed, now everything is global andthe marketdecides who gets the resource.We can push the button to change the light all we want. We'll figure out if it does anything or not.The way things have been changed, it may not unless those people who want the resource can and do pay more than anybody else, anywhere for it.For people who pay with their labor, what happens when their labor is no longer needed?