Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2021, 08:38:00 am
content: For over 15 years we have been buying this case.In fact we had various complete products built in it out there, until the company vanished, with a total loss of stock and test equipment (standard Chinese practice).We paid for original tooling in 2005. So we paid again for a new tool, USD3k, with another company a few years ago and moved the product manufacturing to the UK.However I suspect that we were conned both times and the tool charges were a fake, and this is actually astandard boxin the Chinese market. I am fairly sure this is the case (no pun intended) because the 2nd case has some little features not on the drawing, which the original one had and for which there would be no point in incorporating them in the tool.The 2nd company, after shipping 10k cases, increased the price 3x (basically the UK level). They did this right after the tool was paid for (another standard Chinese practice) and came back down when I refused to pay it. This time I asked for the tool to be returned to us, and they did another standard Chinese thing (excommunication; works because they know a Westerner will never travel to China to see what is going on) so now we are down USD 3k plus some hefty prepayments (basically, stolen money) on some bare PCB orders which won't be shipped... so we will have to get new tooling done (in the UK - about 5k - as it would be crazy to repeat this exercise in today's China) so all in all this piece of criminal activity is going to cost us about 10k. Luckily we have plenty of stock of the case so there is time...This is what the case looks like and below is a bit of the original drawing. But the drawing shows just the PCB dimensions; it is not a drawing for the component i.e. the tooling. The name YORKTRON doesn't google to anything, but if it is say 20 years old it probably would not anyway. Also a lot of Chinese make up English names for overseas consumption - same as they do with sales people's names. It is also possible the case was never marketed outside China.Very many thanks for any tips.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2021, 05:48:22 am
content: I couldn't find it as a standard box. The hard part is which category it's in; sorta "handheld" without rubber grips and two square cutouts as a "cable assy"I see many companies, OEM enclosure manufacturers just reselling this stuff. Or you were dealing through a middleman all along and this is Yorktron.I looked herehttps://www.chinaenclosure.com/but many in Taiwan as well, better quality.Alsohttp://www.changhe-enclosures.com/(slow website) surely all in bed together. They were around USD $5,000 for a mould, it's like candy bars there they pump them out constantly but in the USA they ask $25-40K as if CNC machining gold billet lol. With 3D CADD and specialized software, I think people are asking way too much for making a mould nowadays.good reads, esp. the manufacturing agreement and shenanigans that get pulled:On the Importance of China Mold Ownership and Protection AgreementsHow to leave china safelyHow not to Lose Your Molds/Tooling in China

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2021, 07:35:59 am
content: Thank you for lookingYes very possibly Yorktron was a middleman. In China perhaps 90% of companieswhich a westerner seesare reselling somebody else's stuff. If one looks at Global Sources (used to be called Asian Sources and published a nice printed catalogue; I used it for many years) one sees so many companies selling what is obviously the same stuff; even same photos are used.Chinese tooling would cost USD 1k for a box like this, in 2005. We paid 3k a few years ago after "Yorktron" vanished. The UK cost would be 10k the whole time but the quality would be much higher, although the last tool was actually very good (probably because it was new).The "Chinese art" is excommunication. They know a small Western businessman will not visit their "factory" in China, and even if he wanted to he will be afraid of getting beaten up. It is also a big job; you need to hire an interpreter, etc. And the big Western firms (Apple e.g.) have their own people on-site so they can manage a withdrawal safely, but OTOH they probably don't need to withdraw because they have so much power - even over Foxconn. I can't see Apple etc ever withdrawing from China, although they would be wise to set up secondary mfg sites.Interesting links on how to get out of China. Yeah... seen this. Those links are applicable to big firms and they have more options. A small company here just loses everything they have in China, if the company out there simply chooses to stop answering emails and not actions phone calls.

author: sandalcandal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2021, 08:03:01 am
content: I personally know many people that use Chinese manufacturers and suppliers that never get screwed over but then I see stuff like this online all the time. These aren't particularly "big" corporations either, they're all small business or startups. I know people with Chinese manufacturers which actively inform of infringement attempts and help defend their IP for them. So I'm not sure how people manage to get themselves screwed over? I've spoken directly with one person that claimed to have been screwed by a Chinese PCBA but they didn't exactly give off the aura of a competent business person.Do people never try actually meeting their suppliers or building up a relationship? Is the most people do throw out an Alibaba RFQ and pick the lowest bidder? I'd like to know how people actually end up getting screwed?I did also go through HAX which is a startup accelerator with a specific focus on setting people up to successfully manufacture hardware in China so that's likely a source of bias in my experience/network.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2021, 05:56:52 pm
content: "Do people never try actually meeting their suppliers"That is quite a challenge... although obviously it would be fairly effective.I am sure some Chinese companies do what they dobecausetheir customers don't travel to China and are never likely to.Regarding putting something out for a quote, I normally go to Global Sources and send it to say 20 companies. Of the responses, say 10, the majority are illiterate, obviously reselling somebody else's product, or just sounding blatently opportunistic. So one narrows it down to a few who sound businesslike and seem to understand the requirement.I think the risk of getting screwed depends on how long you use a company. If you use a company just a few times, they may not go under in that time, But over say 5 years it is very likely, in modern China, that it will go bust. And then you will lose whatever your exposure was. Tooling, the last prepayment, etc.I've never used Alibaba.

author: sandalcandal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 10:06:29 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on October 09, 2021, 05:56:52 pmIs it not worth the cost of a reliable and more robust supply chain? I seems common sense for people I've met and worked with. How much does a trip to China cost from the UK (or US) in the pre-COVID era? I guess it's cheaper to do China/Asia visits from Australia.Quote from: peter-h on October 09, 2021, 05:56:52 pmYeah I'd think so too. Hard to give much of a toss about some random, foreign, small time customer whose only existence to you was emails in a foreign language and small checks in the bank. Not to say the practice isn't dodgy.Quote from: peter-h on October 09, 2021, 05:56:52 pmThere are plenty of Chinese companies that have lasted longer with ample integrity but a lot of these new small businesses willing to do low cost manufacturing for anyone and everyone that enquires online do seem to be less stable.For "first class" high-quality suppliers in China I've found them to be not too much cheaper than a reputable US manufacturer for example. The main advantage with these higher cost Chinese manufacturers seems to be a speed and logistics advantage, particularly with all your various suppliers being relatively close thanks to China being the manufacturing hub of the world. I know some manufacturing setups in China run by people from Australia/US/EU for this reason.Quote from: peter-h on October 09, 2021, 05:56:52 pmLikewise, I've never used Global Source. So far I've used: personal recommendations, Alibaba, JD, Taobao and 1688. Not sure about Global Source but Alibaba offers a QA and inspection service as well as some insurance service though I've never used it. If quality and reliability matters then you really should be doing it yourself in-person IMO. If it's not possible then it's probably better to stay domestic as you've decided it seems.Edit: I can't remember anyone I know personally using Global Source which might be telling of the quality of suppliers there.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 01:01:14 pm
content: Looking at the positives firstwhat youdoget from China, and not generally get in the West, isconsistency.I've been buying bare boards from China for 20+ years because UK mfgs would skip BBT if the end of the month was coming up. The result is a few % of duff boards which creates absolute havoc. The shorts cannot usually be found (under a component, etc) and the opens produce a circuit which can work until the customer gets it.And China is still a lot cheaper for simple items like PCBs, moulded cables, etc. And I will continue to use them for that, because even if the company goes bust after ever job, it isn't too bad. And a lot of Chinese PCB mfgs chuck away PCB tooling after 1 year and then laugh in your face when you complain...Re visiting China, well, you first need an interpreter. The airline ticket is the least of your worries. Then you have a lot of travelling to the 7-line address, Suite 173 of Building 1097, etc, and what will you see there? Yes, of course this is useful. But it is hard to judge the business acumen of people from a very foreign culture. In so many ways, comms could be with a company on Mars.I know someone who uses Chinese companies for CNC machining of metal parts and finds them very good. Again, a very simple relationship. That works.Mouldings probably don't work anymore, because the above moulding, USD 0.30 after the price increase, plus some $500-$1000 for shipping 10k of them, is about the same as getting it moulded in the UK, and in the UK the circuit is shorter if you want specific plastics, colours, etc. And a lot less risk because the $3k tool risk isn't there (unless the UK firm goes bust and is totally liquidated without you discovering it, which is very unlikely), there is no prepayment, and you get the mouldings a month (the sea freight time) earlier.The Global Sources catalogue was the place to go to. Not sure it no longer is; I still find good contacts there. Just got 3000 toroidal transformers wound. A UK firm used to do them for £1.20 including the core; used it for 20 years. Then they sold out to another company which quoted £11. In China I am getting them done for $0.50, free issue cores at £0.12 each.https://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/Multilayer-PCB-manufacturers/b/2000000003844/3000000157770/12101.htm?view=grid

author: sandalcandal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 02:24:27 pm
content: Interesting to know. Thanks for sharing your experience.Good to point out domestic suppliers aren't necessarily perfect either.Quote from: peter-h on October 10, 2021, 01:01:14 pmSounds like domestic moulding is the go for you then; though I feel a good injection moulder should be able to help you source whatever resin you want in China without too much trouble. Can't say there really anything like that in Australia AFAIK.Quote from: peter-h on October 10, 2021, 01:01:14 pmWell I'm personally open to learning the language and the culture to do better business.I think being semi-permanently (several month stint) set up there and doing product development at the same time (as part of HAX) made it much more useful as the "fast and cheap" but not necessarily perfect approach there makes prototyping and development much cheaper/faster, additionally at the same time you can build up relationships and tour several potential CMs.

author: TimCambridge
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 02:54:33 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on October 10, 2021, 01:01:14 pmUK moulding recommendation for small enclosures?

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 03:02:27 pm
content: AFAIK for low-ish volume stuff UK moulding is expensive.Probably worth checking outthese dudes.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 04:24:31 pm
content: OP I no longer share your optimism when dealing with china for electronic components, kinda sour about it. I find relationships or "guanxi" apply only to the People which Westerners are not. After the initial honeypot, they are opportunists and will cheapen things to no limits- as you let them, and jack up prices once you are hooked and in need of their parts.I traced problems back to the transformer, permeability way low. Emails to the manufacturer and translation hassles, reveals "annealing was changed".Not used to that kind of problem, as if I'd know what is involved in making nickel-iron. I guess the metallurgy quality over there is a bit loosey goosey but I'm fine to toss the cartons of parts in the garbage and let higher ups haggle over who should pay. It's not worth shipping them back. But still, what a hassle.Of course it's our fault because the control drawings did not specify EVERYTHING. Wire size, insulation, core properties, hi-pot, winding geometry etc. etc. Without this, you can get "variations"... as they save every penny or just due to the quality wandering- and it's permissible because it is not specified by the customer.A now gone forum member said "china's only advantage is their population, they pay the same as everyone else for materials".But I can't buy the raw materials alone compared to the price of completed parts out of china. Something is grossly wrong.I think they are dumping products, certainly PCB's, aluminum, steel etc. as a national strategy to stomp out the competition. How many companies in the UK are making transformers? At what point is Brian Sowter going to be worth it lol. It's literally 20-30X more expensive.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 04:49:02 pm
content: "UK moulding recommendation for small enclosures?"There must be 10 companies within a 10 mile radius, in the UK. I used to be next door to one such, running 24/7, with 1 machine, churning out plastic cups. I am sure he was the cheapest around, in that business."I find relationships or "guanxi" apply only to the People which Westerners are not. After the initial honeypot, they are opportunists and will cheapen things to no limits- as you let them, and jack up prices once you are hooked and in need of their parts."Yes I think they often just hate us. But hey you could say that about so many scenarios. Do you think the Spanish like the Brits living there, or the French like the Brits buying up the old barns? Those Brits are busy moving back to the UK because they found that despite learning the language and making some effort they were never accepted. Whereas in the UK European foreigners are normally taken at face value.But the real problem in modern China is that it is fast moving and anybody enterprising is trying to make a fast buck. The average company "we" deal with has say 100 people and 1 of them speaks English, and if that one person (who is in high demand) moves on (which they do every 6 months) you have to almost start again. And people don't care about screwing somebody over. I've found the Chinese totally shameless. But as long as they are cheap they will get business."Of course it's our fault because the control drawings did not specify EVERYTHING"You you have to be specific in the spec. If possible, free issue the materials. I have bought 6000 cores and sent only 3000 to China to be wound, so if they vanish before they ship, I haven't lost all the cores (16 week lead time)", they pay the same as everyone else for materials"They do NOT. They get almost everything for much less. Plastics, cables, metal parts. All much cheaper. Here in the West everybody in business is trying to make 100k+ so they can have 3 cars outside the house and kids in a private school.Western chip companies sell chips for far less in China than in the West. They always have done. But only to big volume mfgs. Intel pricing for example was perhaps 30% of Western pricing. I have come across companies there who managed to buy chips there and ship them to here but today they are hard to find.Notably, metalwork is vastly cheaper in China. Here, any sort of metal enclosure costs a few quid - unless you can knock it out with a complicated press tool in one go. Even 1k+ it is a few quid. In China it is under $1."How many companies in the UK are making transformers?"Those are labour intensive, so they went to China. But also the Chinese can buy the ferrites for a lot less, from no-name companies out there. Compare the price of an RJ45 with integral magnetics (e.g. Hanrun) with Western-made versions (Wurth is a good example of grossly overpriced stuff). But even Hanrun are being counterfeited at about 1/3 of the price...

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 05:22:46 pm
content: You're cheating by sending them the cores lol. How did you resist the massive cost savings, they really hate having to not use their own materials. I found they still have to i.e. buy German fasteners and bearings sometimes, they simply can't do precision parts... yet. Or complex test equipment, they will search locally then give up and import it.I've often wondered how many are State Owned Enterprises at the top level, and it's a plethora of shell companies that are offering the same stuff to the West.So your transformer is simply wound and taped in china? If the labour costs were $0, that toroid or enclosure manufactured locally would still never be priced close to what is coming in off the boat. I'm suspicious they're dumping because there is nothing else left that could lower the end cost an order of magnitude say 20x.I'm curious, if you bought the latest technology coil-winding machines, why would it still cost more to do it locally? Price of copper wire, people working slower less of a sweatshop etc. I can't see what is eating up the cash.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 06:56:44 pm
content: The £1.20 UK company disappearing and the one which bought their assets charging £11 is just people taking the piss. Obviously I am not paying £11. But I've found UK transformer makers aren't interested in doing business. I bought a couple of 230V to 4.5kV transformers for a flash tester and they took 6 months to arrive...The chinese company charges USD 0.50 to wind the free issue cores, which I judge to be about the right price. I had an offer at USD 0.35 but the company communicated badly.If you bought a toroidal winding machine and got somebody on the NMW (national min wage) to sit in front of it, it would also be very cheap, but not viable unless it is running all the time. It's like it isn't worth getting your own SMT placement and reflow (due to the cost of the operator) even if you can buy the two machines ex-bankrupt quite cheap.I have found the secret of dealing with China: buy a LOT and buy it rarelyThen the hassle occurs rarely.I like to buy just once a year, preferably once in a few years, and with a lot of cheap stuff this is easy. For example we use little springs. Used to pay 20p here. I found a chinese spring maker who quoted about 1p, for 300k of them. Now, 300k will last us about 50 years, but it cost just 3k to buy themThey came in little sealed bags, 100/bag, with silica gel, while the UK ones were going rusty quickly.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 08:26:39 pm
content: I agree the local old dinosaur companies charging a fortune, will die out and go extinct. That boss will never get a new Jag... unless government grants keep them alive.The cost of a mould, the setup fees for a PCB or assembly - are ridiculously high in the West. Quotes for a tiny custom spring (even in stock ones)Willie Washer USAwere $4 each, regardless of quantityWho wouldn't go East?I'm wondering if you are saying "on-shoring" is a myth? The only possibility for low cost is automation to compete with NMW, and to eliminate middlemen (and fatmen) in the supply chain. Your shipping/duties costs can't be insignificant- just to get winding and tape.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 08:37:31 pm
content: I think on-shoring is happening but not with the big names. Not with those who have their own people sitting in China and kicking butt as required. And on-shoring will be causing a lot more chinese firms to go bust than do anyway.What may happen is that china will to some extent go back to making the cheap and simple stuff they started with decades ago. That is not what they want, obviously. But their behaviour will bring it about.Import duty from China is only about 5%. It would have to go to 50-100%, or 500% on phones, to make the big names do on-shoring.Shipping is not insignificant but still worth doing. The 3k little transformers will cost perhaps USD 100 by DHL to ship back. So the chinese get 3000 x USD 0.50 or so, plus I pay $100 shipping, plus 5% import duty.It does not make sense to build complete products out there anymore, because the labour content of assembling a PCB in a box is very small, and labour intensive wiring can be designed-out. I did this a few years ago; no longer making complete products out there. Just bare PCBs, cables (RJ45-DB9 etc), txf winding, springs, and plastic parts are coming back home now, although I am getting shafted to pay 2.5x the last price for 10k which I will buy (it is the UK price too) and ship the tool back with the 10k.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 08:41:21 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on October 03, 2021, 08:38:00 amAsk Naomi Wu for help, she did something similar with a company that insisted on in person visit to get GPL code for a product they're selling.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 08:56:52 pm
content: I bought plastic handheld enclosures from China. They came with the halves misaligned and twisted so it was not possible to assemble them properly. Never again, and can't be happier.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 09:39:44 pm
content: OP, did I stumble onto your enclosure here?Bud Industries Plastibox.Perhaps your enclosure was an OEM part and that door got closed.china can make good quality, it's just that people sort by price and buy the cheapest. The better shops appear to only be OEM's to third-party sellers. ExampleRitec Taiwanis OEM for some Hammond enclosures, andBud Industriesplastic enclosures are also top quality - but either is totally impractical because they are stupid expensive and... Bud Industries does not do the Metric system. Sigh.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 09:54:03 pm
content: The Bud ones look similar but aren't the same. They could be Chinese but at their prices (about 10x the actual cost) they could be moulded in SwitzerlandYes it is certainly true that the reason why most Chinese stuff is crap is because most (all but the very big) Western companies make their premium products back home and buy the cheap end of their range from China. That serves two purposes: you maintain your domestic expertise etc while serving the cost sensitive markets where customer demands cannot possibly be fulfilled from domestic production (by a factor of several times, usually).The problem is that unless one has one's own people out there (possible only for the biggest companies like Apple) one cannot run strategically vital production in China, because you never know when the supplier will blow up or try to shaft you. I don't see any way around that, other than by buying a large quantity, enough to last a few years, and then reordering when there is say a couple of years' of stock left. Then you always have a year or two to sort out a new supplier, and the cost of the "stolen" tooling is a smaller %.Taiwanese stuff is more upmarket; better quality and more expensive, and the companies are more stable. One middleman I have been using for many years, until recently, for contract manufacturing, withdrew from China totally a year or so ago and is now using purely Taiwan.I've looked at PCBs from S Korea but the prices are high and comms were difficult.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 10:25:37 pm
content: Every company that sets up shop in china gets their IP ripped off and disseminated to the People. I've seen it, stunned when competitor's CADD drawings are handed out like crisps at a meeting.Example: Google source code,Saleen china scam,ARM Holdings, and now Tesla issuing Riviana second time for headhunting and stealing their battery tech. How can Tesla be so stupid- yet this is the price for manufacturing over there and presumably selling your product to that theoretical large market of millions, who can't afford it.I would never get an entire product built there but MBA's and corporate executives don't care if the IP is stolen, as long as this quarter's profits look good for stockholders. It's just components, parts that are less dangerous.I was wondering if there was a chance for "on-shoring" to at least slow the decline of the electronics industry due to outsourcing. Or if it's another myth politicians and exec's are on about.I had one local board stuffing house actually sneak over to S. Korea to source the PCB's for products they were building for us. We were exclusively using North American PCB fab. Who authorized the cheapola outsourcing? It's the local PCB assembly house making extra profit by supplying cheap PC boards. Next they could just get the boards built there lol. This is management making outsourcing deals Engineering knows nothing about, then come back crying when it doesn't work. It did not work because one product used microwaves and Dk can't be that crappy so the tuning was trashed. The other product the copper de-laminated peel strength was poor for heavier parts. The Korean PC boards are very low cost and lower quality.

author: TimCambridge
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2021, 01:55:41 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on October 10, 2021, 04:49:02 pmAny recommendations? Not looking for a guarantee, just "try this company."

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2021, 03:00:22 am
content: Quote from: Bud on October 10, 2021, 08:56:52 pmYou had bought factory rejects from drop shippers.You can outsource the work, but you can't outsource your responsibility.Able to find, select, qualify, and retain good vendors are the responsibility and the competitive strength of a good company. All good vendors have more than enough work to keep them busy, and are not spamming all over the place. They are in a good position to walk off if they sense the clients going to be lazy, unreasonable or problematic. Good ones also do not need to reach out to unknown foreign cleints in foreign languages that they are not familiar. Find someone who are willing to risk their reputation to recommend you to his/her good vendors should be the first approach.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 07:11:53 am
content: If we could not stray into over political discussion on this one. What applies to china applies to any country, trading has to be done largely on faith unless you have the money to sue and you have a contract that recognises a legal jurisdiction that may not be the one of the buyer or seller. It's as simple as that. Companies going bust is always a risk. It's why for large important sourcing of materials or even expertise some companies put a lot of effort into their supply chain. For example my employer gets all source files off their electronics contractor, not just so that they can go elsewhere if they are being messed about but also as a guarantee against our own output just stopping if that company disappears.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 08:00:00 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 14, 2021, 07:11:53 amI disagree, they do not comprehend the Rule of Law that defines the West. The "100 years of national humiliation" has rightfully resulted in angry nationalism that people need to be aware of. Copyright infringement? Theft of IP? Phone the police lol. The narrative is mistrust and bias against foreign entities, as they damaged the country many years ago.I think it's impossible to talk about sourcing electronics components without the politics of developing nations coming up.Nothing has impacted the global electronics profession as much as china and it's important to not be naive or have a gag order, and share the pitfalls.I understand emotions, anger, hostility will cause a thread to crash'n burn though.Imagine sourcing this simple plastic box being such a hassle.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 08:28:41 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on October 14, 2021, 08:00:00 pmNo you totally misunderstood what I put, I never said they are honest, I said that this is how it works, take it or leave it! So you do business with someone in any other jurisdiction even a "western" one and there is a problem, what do YOU do about it? can YOU actually DO anything?

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 10:14:18 pm
content: Sorry I didn't read that right. Here, you can go to court over say getting the moulds returned and any breach of contract. IP is somewhat protected.A similar course of action in china looks like hell. You really have to do your homework. Snippet taken fromhttps://harrisbricken.com/chinalawblog/contracts-in-china-enforce-it-or-go-home/"... To pursue a claim successfully against a Chinese company, the following is usually required:First, there must be a written contract between the parties, executed by both parties in accordance with the Chinese law requirements. It used to be common to do business in China without a contract. Much OEM manufacturing in China is done on a purchase order basis, with no underlying contract. Much service work done by foreigners for Chinese clients is based on an exchange of emails. Back in the days when China had no laws and no courts, this informal approach made some sense because there was no alternative. Today, however, to be able to bring a plausible claim against a Chinese company, the foreign plaintiff almost always must be able to show a formal relationship between the parties. Unlike in the U.S. or the EUR, Chinese courts rarely allow for proving the existence of a contract by putting together pieces evidenced by scattered POs, invoices, emails and desperate phone calls. The court will insist on a written agreement that unambiguously names the parties and provides the basis for the agreement.Second, the contract must be enforceable in China. As a practical matter, Chinese courts incredibly rarely enforce foreign judgments and it can be quite difficult to get them to enforce a foreign arbitration award. A contract enforceable in China must meet the following basic standards:1. The contract is governed by Chinese law.Under Chinese law, it is permissible to provide that the contract be governed by foreign law. However, providing for foreign law all but guarantees failure in a Chinese court because Chinese courts require the party to prove every relevant element of foreign law. This is a disaster for several reasons. First, proving foreign law is expensive. Second, proving foreign law leads to delay. Third, skillful defendants will dispute the application of foreign law, rendering your case and even any judgment you receive uncertain.2. The governing language of the contract is Chinese.Under Chinese law, it is permissible to provide that the governing language of the contract is a foreign language such as English. To do so, however, nearly always leads to disaster. Chinese courts will only work with Chinese language documents. This means the contract must be translated into Chinese. The translation will not be done by the parties but rather by a court appointed translator. The translator is often not particularly skilled and the resulting translation is often simply wrong. Even when the translation is correct, the defendant will often dispute the translation, leading to delays and ultimate uncertainty in the decision. Having someone else translate your contract after you sue means that you do not even know exactly what it is on which you are suing. We are also aware of Chinese courts simply refusing to hear cases that involve contracts in a language other than Chinese.3. The contract should be enforceable in a Chinese court with jurisdiction over the defendant.This normally means jurisdiction in a court in the district where the defendant has its principal place of business. China has excellent domestic arbitration panels with extensive experience in resolving foreign disputes. But litigation is usually a better alternative for several reasons.First, in disputes with smaller Chinese companies, there is a concern the company will dissipate assets before a judgment can be obtained. Chinese courts can order a prejudgment writ of attachment that prevents this. In addition, a prejudgment writ will often convince a smaller Chinese company to resolve the matter quickly.Second, the plaintiff in a dispute with a Chinese company will often want an order instructing the defendant to take some action such as ceasing to infringe IP rights, return molds or tooling, or appointing a manager or officer of a company. In other words, what would be called injunctive relief in a common law system. Chinese courts have the authority to issue such orders and an arbitration panel does not.4. The place of litigation should be in the district where the Chinese defendant has its principle place of business.Many foreign parties will seek an agreement for jurisdiction in some neutral district such as Beijing or Shanghai. This is a mistake. First, Chinese courts will simply ignore such agreements. Second, and more important, Chinese courts are reluctant to enforce judgments from other districts and they often will ignore orders issued by Chinese courts from other districts. This means if you get a judgment in Beijing but need to enforce it in Chengdu against your Chinese counter-party, you may not be able to do so."----------------------I think for OP, and I've made this mistake too is the "discounted" or "no fee" development work flipping the IP situation around:"The first disaster usually occurs when the Chinese manufacturer does not charge the foreign company anything for the product development work. In these situations, the Chinese manufacturer often will claim that any intellectual property in the developed product is its own and will generously offer to make the product on behalf of the foreign company at price, payment, quantity, quality and delivery termschosen by the Chinese manufacturer.Our China lawyers see this all the time, especially with start-up companies involved in making products for the Internet of Things ecosystem. No matter how outrageous the pricing or other demands from the Chinese manufacturer, there is little the foreign company can do because it waited until development was finished before even considering who would end up with “its” IP."Rest of the article is a very good readhttps://harrisbricken.com/chinalawblog/china-product-development-agreements/

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2021, 07:04:05 am
content: And again you fail to see my point which put bluntly is: when dealing with a country like china you either put up or shut up! It's not like you are not forewarned, you just have to have a 5 minute understanding of how international law works. From what you say you can only sue a chinese company in china under their laws, if you deem those unfavourable then you don't do trade. This is why people who deal with china will hire a local representative that understands the laws and will get you what you want.Contracts are worthless if they are unenforceable in practice or the party that should loose has nothing to loose. What you do if you do not like the laws of the jurisdiction where your opponent is is to get them to agree to a contract in a place where you both agree that you are OK with that jurisdictions laws and crucially where you both hold assets!!!! it's pointless doing a deal with a company in say korea under the legal jurisdiction of alasaka if the company has no assets in alaska because the alaskan authorities have no authority over assets in korea.If the whole thread is just about calling chinese suppliers dishonest then I may as well just lock it! this is not news. What is more important is to work out how to not get caught out rather than bitching about your own ignorance!

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 02:46:26 pm
content: Yes; all talk of contracts is meaningless, because enforcing anything in China will cost 5 digits plus. There is no such thing as "international law".I think the only way to play this game is to buy a lot of stock in one go, and maintain a high stock level.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2021, 11:08:51 am
content: An update:The company subcontracted the moulding to another one. They asked us to deal with that company directly, for future business.Then we got a string of bizzare comms, some (from them) via SMS and some via email. The moulding company won't reveal their address, and the name they use is probably fake. So I asked them to return the tool. Then more bizzare comms e.g. the employee saying it "puts her in a difficult position", and later saying they want another USD 1000 to release the tool, or a PO for 10k mouldings at the new vastly inflated price.However, we never had a business relationship with this company. The tool was paid for via the original company, so it istheirresponsibility. Of course they are washing their hands of it too.I don't really want to pay the USD 1000 because they could pocket the money and return a smashed up tool. That is another well known Chinese practice; happened to us a few times with test equipment we sent out there. I can get a new tool made for about USD 3000. In fact this would be the 3rd tool for the same mouldingI wonder if anyone has any experience of "Chinese extortion" practices and how they can be resolved. For example, while I very much doubt the Chinese police will be interested, it may also be that a visit from the local police will scare the hell out of a Chinese businessman.It is possible that both firms are reading this, of course.I am not posting their names, yet

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2021, 06:47:50 pm
content: You are delusional, you have no enforceable contract with anyone. How much is your time worth? Just pay for a new tool with a local company and cut your losses.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 02:41:12 am
content: Why do we use China?Tooling: UK=£6k, China=USD3kMouldings: UK=£0.50, China=USD0.13 (+shipping of USD0.07)The risk is that you are often dealing with what over here one would call criminals.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 08:55:05 am
content: Right so how many are you making a year? can your mark-up tolerate the increase in price? I don't know what you put in these enclosures but you are talking a piece price increase of 35p but you do have the increased tooling up front. But then with all the potential hassle over a part you cannot just replace what is the cost of loosing that part?

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 02:25:32 pm
content: Why would the sub-contractor/vendor of your main supplier want to deal with you? Don't waste their time and also your time. I think I can source quite well from China , but sometime I also got hit. It is part of the sourcing process. Your process in sourcing can be improved further. To start off, the catalogue you referred to is full of traders. The better their English, the less likely they are the real manufacturers.My reading of the deal is the mold may or may not be there. When I cannot access it, it is not mine from the first day. The pricing and the breakdown the supplier provided is what needed to cover their profit and also what could make me accept, or my approving body accept. In short, the breakdown is irrelevant. And this quote is only good for one time only. The quote for next order shall have unit price increase as they cannot charge for the mold again, but their cost and their markup is likely the same.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 02:58:43 pm
content: Interesting discussion and unfortunately for the OP I don't have a good source in China. For two of our products we were offered the option to create a custom design, but we refused due to the low volumes (around 10k/yr) and the hassle of micro manage the whole process.We ended up with standard enclosures from a reputable manufacturer. Obviously that there is always risk: the manufacturer can simply decide to discontinue the product as well, but they have a policy of early warning AND we have a purchasing contract with them.One interesting thing mentioned in floobydust's post is that the conditions mentioned there are true for any of the countries that I know of. If you have a contract unenforceable in a jurisdiction and not written in the local language, you will indeed have to risk 5~6 figures amount to pursue that. And this is a gamble.Things inproved in the international dealings in the past decades, but you still need deep pockets...

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 02:59:44 pm
content: The tool exists. I managed to get a photo of it, after some weeks which showed they are subcontracting it.An off the shelf box is not an option; they tend to all look the same, and are very expensive.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 05:45:17 pm
content: Years ago my past employer needed some duck bill valves that they had just run out of. No idea where they had come from. I got online, found a Chinese supplier and we ordered them having arranged the tooling. There was a bit of "but we own the tooling" but for the quantity price tooling included the piece price was not bad. I figured that even if we never bought any again the price was OK with the loss of the tooling. They never needed any more again, the time that has gone by if they can remember where they got them the tooling will be gone anyway.If it's that important to you and you want to go to china then buy a damn lot and assume it's a one use only tool.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2022, 03:49:36 pm
content: I've had some developments with this.We threatened the moulding company, and the other company through which the tool was procured, with reporting them to the Chinese embassy in London, and to their local police station for theft of a tool.The email was re-sent about 5x, once a week.Of course nobody would expect Chinese police to do anything about a Chinese company stealing something from a customer in the Westbut in this case "something" worked. They have agreed to us collecting the tool.I am still trying to sort out the details (company name, etc). I have just an image in Chinese writing which I can't read but which I think is the company name.They claim there is a severe covid lockdown there now and we must collect it immediately. Well, I need their name, address, etc, and they need to crate it, and generate a commercial invoice.If they refuse to assist with the packing, are there any options in China whereby somebody there could drive there and pack it and get it shipped?I managed to get the photo of the tool, below. Probably 30-50kg?I want to ship it to the UK, because another Chinese company which we were going to give it to did a funny "misinterpretation" of the moulding and quoted a price for each case half instead of a whole case. Luckily I spotted this just in time. They also changed their currency from USD to GBP which is a 1.3x increase. The result is fully in line with a UK moulder around the corner from here!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 10, 2022, 08:55:08 am
content: How big is the tool? work out it's volume and assume the specific weight of steel.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2022, 09:37:30 am
content: I was more wondering if anybody knows somebody out there who could go there, pack it, and make sure it gets shipped.The address I have (left off the building number because I don't want somebody to phone the company and p1ss them off just for fun):Xingye 1st Street, behind the bus station, Hengli Town, Dongguan City, Guangdong, ChinaThey claim there is a severe covid epidemic there and the whole town may get closed off to the outside world.I reckon 50kg.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2022, 06:30:52 am
content: As a final post-script on this saga, I got the tool out of that gangster country and back to the UK.A final USD 400 extortion fee had to be paid for a 30km drive.The thing which finally worked was me telling them I will report them, for theft, to the Chinese Embassy in London, and to their local police station. I would not have expected either to have any effect but perhaps they are scared of their police.Surprisingly, it came back undamaged. Sometimes they smash stuff up with a hammer.Never found out the actual moulding company (this is usual down there) but I got a load of weird SMS messages from a woman working apparently in there, saying her life was being made difficult and would I please reconsider (and pay 3x the previous price, etc).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2022, 09:12:37 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on November 26, 2021, 02:41:12 amA month of messing around for an engineer would easily pay back that extra cost in tooling. China is only worth dealing with at high volumes and if you have someone in the country you trust who speaks both English and Chinese.(edit: or it's worth dealing with for low volume prototypes, where a missed date is only of consequence to your project timescale, not to the solvency of a business or project!)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2022, 06:41:41 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on August 08, 2022, 06:30:52 ambasically they gradually worked out as much from you as you were willing to pay. I wonder if the tooling is useable.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 04:38:14 pm
content: To end this story happily, I have just had a load of mouldings from the recovered tool, done here in the UK.Never again use a chinese company for anything involving significant tooling.