Reference design collection - I love this book. You may like it too ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 01:28:09 pm
content: Many moons ago, when I first started work, I came across a book on the office reference material shelf that, at the time, appeared to have reference designs for almost every conceivable small project. This book was published back in 1981 so I would be the first to admit that the designs are 'old' by modern standards....but old does not mean of no use or no longer very good.The book that I am talking about is the huge "Modern Electronic Circuits Reference Manual" by John Markus (ISBN 0-07-040446-1). It is over 1000 pages and they are full of useful circuit information.To anyone who is not totally blinkered into thinking that every project needs a microcontroller or masses of complex circuitry, this book may be of interest. Many of the designs have been harvested from well known publications and magazines. There are plenty of Ex Elektor designs to be found (before Elektor whent 'weird').After retiring I remembered this book and decided to see if it was still available to buy. It was always an expensive book and sure enough, new it costs around £160 on Amazon ! That is just book dealers daft prices though. I found a good condition used copy in America via Amazon marketplace and for the princely sum of $17.49 (+ approx £3 p&p) it was mineThe book arrived today in a huge green Swiss Air mail sack ! It is just as big and heavy as I remember ! A quick inspection showed it to be an ex reference library book from Glendale College in the USA. It has aged well and is still in very good condition. The spine is sound and all pages solidly locked into it so the binding has stood the test of time. The College added it to the reference library in May 1981 ! The fact that it was reference only probably helped preserve it as it wasn't dragged around in a students bag all the time. It had a posh plastic jacket protector fitted that had aged so I have removed it.For those who, like me, sometimes need a circuit to quickly test an idea of use as a baseline for a larger project, this book is just full of ideas and,importantly, the detailed schematics. The schematics have the original source referenced for further research if needed.Worth looking in the used area of Amazon for this book at a great price. I am certainly pleased with it for around $22 total costPictures attached

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 01:40:47 pm
content: I remember going through that book in the library, and paying per page at the copier as well. some of the circuits there are older than either of us, using Germanium transistors that were discontinued in the early 1960's, some which were obsolete even in the 1950's.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 01:46:35 pm
content: Ah you can't beat a lump of Germanium working its magic in your design.AC128 or AF115 anyone ? No. ? OK how about the good old OC44,45,70 or 71 then ?Yes, I did say some of the designs were a tad elderly.....but the circuit ideas do remain sound. I note that there is a healthy presence of Ex. QST, Ham Radio and 73 Magazine schematics contained within the books covers so it has drawn from many sources. I wouldn't have wanted the job of collating and licencing 1200 pages of those schematics though !I still think it is a good book to have around, if for nothing else than nostalgia reasons for Dinosaurs like meGive me a pile of transistors, resistors, capacitors and diodes and I will build you a rocket ship fit for for the Stars ...... it may take me some time thoughAurora

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 01:51:00 pm
content: There are perhaps half a dozen books exactly like that. I have 3 or 4 of them. They were a gold-mine of thousands of circuits assembled together into chapters covering various types of functions. The circuits were collected from trade magazines (like "Electronics" and "Electronic Design") and from semiconductor (and even fire-bottle) application notes, etc.Even though many (most?) of the circuits are dated and obsolete, they are still instructive for studying how circuits work. And in many cases they were discrete-component "progenitors" for things that we now use in INTEGRATED-circuit form. But, of course, many of the circuits are still viable today. Those books formed a significant part of my informal electronics education.

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 01:56:15 pm
content: Most of my designs are like that as well. I'll even go to great lengths to get rid of a microcontroller. Recent record is replacing a mega168 with five transistors and three discretes.Might snag a copy for reference

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 02:00:17 pm
content: Still have some Ge transistors around, and have used them as well and not for repairs.Motorola made some pretty beefy Ge power devices, went and dug up the Motorola Reference volume. 60A in a TO3 package, 2N5440, and gain is pretty good as well at 15 minimum at 60A. Power module is MP902, 150A and 140V, with a minimum gain of 20. 250W power dissipation if you keep the heatsink interface at 25C.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 02:18:22 pm
content: Of course, the internet is now a source of that kind of information perhaps 3 or 4 orders of magnitude "richer" than an ink-on-paper book could ever hope to be. And searchable as well.I remember back a few decades ago, there was a company (or two?) who specialized in buying up NOS germanium semiconductors and selling them to people who were trying to keep vintage equipment operating. I remember a big bearded guy who billed himself as "Mr. Germanium". But that was all pre-internet.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 02:30:17 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on April 27, 2015, 01:46:35 pmYes.To the AC128s, anyway. Also a couple of AC127s, an AC126 and an AC187.There's some real bleeding edge technology lurking in my parts collection

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 02:47:04 pm
content: There is a series of 4 books compiled by John Markus. Of course they couldn't make it easy and give them volume numbers, instead they have confusingly unrelated titles:Sourcebook of Electronic Circuits 1967Electronic Circuits Manual 1971Guidebook of Electronic Circuits 1974Modern Electronic Circuits 1980These are all fun reading, although not very well edited. (It must have been a massive job in the pre-computer era.)Then, there is another series compiled by Rudolf Graf, which is not good at all - amazingly devoid of interesting circuits, and even more shoddily edited than the Markus books. I don't recommend it

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 03:41:38 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on April 27, 2015, 02:47:04 pmGreat book(s) for the true electronics hobbyist.I've owned the newest of that list sense new. I was aware (had access) to a prior version but not that there were 4 in all. It was very interesting looking at the change in devices used between the two versions I have/or seen, almost a living history of electronics. Which reminds me how old I am.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 06:39:57 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on April 27, 2015, 02:47:04 pmI've got the first 3 volumes of the Graf series - only because they were cheap at a used book store. Seem ok to me but I have no point of reference. The 3rd volume in the series definitely looks better than the 1st. I think there is a 4th volume as well. (Add - just did an Abebooks search and it looks like this series goes up to Volume 7 copywrite 1998)Also picked up for cheap at a used book store, I have the "The Master IC cookbook" and "The Master Handbook of IC circuit Applications" both by Horn.All of these type of books seem to be only useful in a pre-internet (or post internet?) age when example circuits were not just a few mouse clicks away.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 08:26:33 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on April 27, 2015, 02:30:17 pmI still have a bunch of OC71's from my youth. Sadly they are the later type that Mullard filled with an opaque paste to stop you scratching off the black paint and turning them into OCP71 phototransistors. Killjoys.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 09:22:52 pm
content: Ah the joys of unintentionally photo sensitive transistors ! I have at least one OCP71 but my other OC series have a pinkish paste inside the glass capsule. I heard that there were issues with paint coming off of transistors unintentionally causing unusual photoelectric behaviour in circuits where light could reach the non paste filled transistors. That may be folk lore though.I do know that I worked on a military encryption equipment called BID610 that used military versions of the OC series transistors. It was common for those transistors to go SC or OC. The BID610 kept me busy in my first year of work.http://jproc.ca/crypto/bid610.htmlAurora

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 10:13:59 pm
content: Quote from: mikerj on April 27, 2015, 08:26:33 pmAccording toAndrew Wylie's vintage transistor site, this is a myth.OC71's were always produced with the opaque paste for heat conduction, whereas OCP71's were filled with clear silicon grease. However, some OCP71 candidates were rejected and re-tested as OC71's. If they passed, they were painted black.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 10:44:06 pm
content: Thanks for the link and for confirming the situation regarding the pasteI have enjoyed having a quick look through Andrews site. I shall have to dig out my stock of early Germanium transistors and see what I have. I was going to bin them last year but decided to reprieve them until my next clear-out. Plus sods law would likely mean someone will ask me to repair their original Germanium based Roberts Radio at some point in the near futureAurora

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 10:48:52 pm
content: Some of those vintage germanium transistors are highly prized by people who make grunge effects gadgets for the e-guitar crowd.Price them at £5~10 each and sell them on Ebay.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 07:00:57 am
content: Quote from: rolycat on April 27, 2015, 10:13:59 pmThat's an interesting site, thanks for the link. The first ever transistors I bought (or at least my father did) were OC71's to make an AM radio, described in a child's book published by LadybirdAs soon as I read about the OCP71 I scratched the paint off the two spare transistors we had and they both had the clear grease inside. It was quite a number of years later that I bought a load of mixed components from a local Radio Amateur "swap meet" and all the OC71s had the pink paste. I can remember making a modulated light transmitter/receiver using the OCP71 and a small incandescent bulb, it worked surprisingly well.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 08:46:25 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on April 27, 2015, 10:48:52 pmOh interesting. My junk box contains a fewAF116OC45/71/73/76/77/81OA10CV20422SA538MM2612N2629ASL301Maybe I'll get around to selling them sometime.

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 09:02:22 am
content: Quote from: mikerj on April 28, 2015, 07:00:57 amI had that book. I never had the components to make the radio though which was very very annoying. I used to go to jumble sales and buy old radios in the early 1980s to see if I could salvage enough bits. Most kids were buying sweets with their pocket money but I was fighting old ladies for junk in scout halls.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 09:03:32 am
content: I had that Ladybird book as well. I recall that the AC128 transistors were quite expensive so I had to save up for them. This was all part of my very early introduction to electronics and radio. I still have the Ladydird book somewhere.Aurora

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 11:31:18 am
content: Quote from: smjcuk on April 28, 2015, 09:02:22 amI have very similar memories. I can remember my mother being annoyed when she'd taken a load of our old toys to a jumble sale at my primary school and returned with a pile of old electronic scrap. Happy days.Don't know where my Ladybird book is, but I recently found my collection of paperback electronic project books from my younger days: Robert Penfold, Bernard Babani, Forrest Mims etc. Familiar names to many I'm sure.

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 11:49:21 am
content: Quote from: mikerj on April 28, 2015, 11:31:18 amHa exactly the same! I remember buying old valve radio frames as well and plug the things in outside my nan's house in the garden to see what happened. Invariably smoke and fire. Occasional zaps and glowing tubes but rarely. Actually that woman's house was a flipping death trap - most of the electrics dated from the 1950s so it had round pin 15A plugs and some of her stuff plugged into the lighting circuits via a long cable screwed into the bulb socket. Plus electric blankets. Ugh. Then carrying bags of junk on the Picadilly line back home with my mother moaning about all the things that I'd bought.I had a pile of those books too. Due to idiocy in the early 00's I got rid of them though and am currently regretting it, particularly Penfold's synthesizer book. Fortunately you can still get it here:http://www.emusic-diy.org/Schematics/SynthsAnyway enough nostalgia thread hijacking. Perhaps I should start an 80s UK electronics scene nostalgia thread

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 12:46:28 pm
content: This thread was always going to be about nostalgia due to the age of the book. I have absolutely no objection to such continuing in this thread. Many of the circuits in the book I referenced are either transistor or basic logic chip based so they belong in an age for which many of us have nostalgia. I have heard some say that any design based on antique 74LS or 4000 series components are junk and belong in a museum. All I can say is leave people to enjoy their nostalgia, and if someone wants to build something out of obsolete or old components that is their fun and I see nothing wrong with thatI still have racks with every common 74,74LS and 4000 series chip in multiple quantities. I never bought just one for a project, always 'one and a spare' if finances permitted ! I also have a lot of exotic chips that are likely like gold dust these days. I shall have to have a sort outI am 'only' 47 but grew up with Valve technology, transistors, IC's, VLSI and eventually the modern high density clever chips that we see today. Even today, Valves have their place in high power RF transmitters ! I remember wanting an IBM PS2 PC for my amateur radio data modes when they were as rare as hens teeth on the used market. Now an XT equivalent PC is a museum piece. I used to repair 8086/88, 80286 and 80386 computers (XT & AT) down to component level ........ Ah those were the daysNo harm in reminiscing IMHO. Some of us have had long and interesting careers, why not share them ?Aurora

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 01:31:13 pm
content: PhewQuote from: Aurora on April 28, 2015, 12:46:28 pmGlad to hear someone say this! A little younger here but I couldn't agree more.I think people cling too heavily to high level abstractions. The less experienced you are the more scary the layer down is. My day job is writing complex financial software and it's incredible how deep the abstraction that we work at is. They are all taken for granted and they don't all work all the time. It's nice to walk away from this at the end of the day and shunt electrons (or holes if you prefer) over some PN junctions. There is literally nothing above that abstraction and it's totally amazing what you can achieve when you understand it all.A recent project example I've been working on. Basic premise is turn one fan on for 10s, turn another on for 10s and then go to sleep for 10 mins. This is to automatically exercise my tomato plants which go all stringy if kept in a greenhouse.So iteration 1: clone arduino, laptop, USB cable, small program, relay card, wall wart. Worked fine. Not satisfying.Iteration 2: three 555 timers, 2 transistors. One astable, two monostable, two fan drivers. Picture here of the final device (yes stripboard - sorry for my sin):Iteration 3: 6 transistors. One multivibrator and two pulse stretchers, two fan drivers. Currently on breadboard but worksSo we've gone down from billions of transistors in solution one, through a few tens of them to 6 and the outcome is the same to within a percent.I'm a qualified EE that did about 3 years of work in the industry (defence) before I sold out to write software for ref. I really don't care for high level abstractions as if you've worked in the software industry you will see precisely how dangerous they are. I've watched millions of £ sink into stupid projects where they're built on a mountain of failing abstractions that no vendor will guarantee. I wish I'd taken the red pill rather than the blue pill back then and skipped software but most EE's I know write software and poke FPGAs now anyway so I'd probably be doing the same.Now I'm from the time of ICs, microprocessors etc but that doesn't mean you have to use them.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 05:01:02 pm
content: I totally agree about the level of abstraction taking people further and further away from the metal, but that is how it is.Coincidentally, my main income until about five years ago was also in the financial industry developing and troubleshooting financial trading systems since the late 80s, but I was originally an EE. I've had my finger in the pie almost all the time, although I had a hiatus for several years in the 90's: the next thing you know everything's surface mount!Having an EE background generally, I believe, makes you a better programmer sometimes, because you understand about what's going on underneath.With the level of abstraction nowadays, the answer all too often is to throw hardware at the problem. While that can work, it's usually only an incremental change. Put your thinking caps on, and you can frequently achieve orders of magnitude performance increases.The other problem of abstraction is it introduces indeterminism, and that is often underestimated from a psychological end user perspective. I've never understood why systems are accepted which clearly exhibit apparently random slowing down. In the end, they will have managed to hit some metric that 95% of the time the response will be sub second or something.Anyway I digress. I built that Ladybird book radio, several times. It was the very first electronic project I ever did. But I never ever got the final stage to work. There was a rumour fairly recently that that final stage never worked, I don't know how true that was.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 05:43:10 pm
content: Funny, I did the exact opposite 20 years ago, taking a board with around a dozen 555 timers in a cascade on it, and replacing it with an old 386SX computer running BASIC. It was failing, and was getting grumpy, and I really did not want to look at the rats nest there and the dicey sockets and caps in it. The computer allowed a lot more flexibility in setting the timings, as well as better control over the automation it drove. Still have it around, though the stuff it drove is long ago scrapped. Dexterslab13 got part of it as an ashtray. Must tear down the remains one day.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 05:51:57 pm
content: it's great to hear these perspectives. It helps me to justify my approach to learning.I'm 52 and while I did do a bit of rudimentary electronics and a lot of scope time and DAQ back in the late 80s, early 90s as a neurobiologist, I'm only now in the last 2-3 years teaching myself electronics as a hobby. I have the luxury of being able to take my time and start at the low level. While I dabble a bit with MCUs and the digital world - my focus of learning has been analog with discrete components a la' late 1960s technology and going forward from there (gonna skip valves). Seems more satisfying and complete to start there and it also allows me to enjoy the use of the equipment from the era. Besides, it's my nature to want to understand something at as rudimentary level as possible before moving onto to higher levels of abstraction.Some abstraction is inevitable and the lure of using an MCU to get some things done (like building a small robot with my son) is unavoidable and ok.But, my real goal is to slowly work my way through the past 4 decades of technology as I learn. My hobby time is limited but if I'm lucky, before I die I'll be truly up to speed and be able to use the latest tech (when needed) with an deeper understanding of what came before. Just trying to enjoy the journey...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 06:16:03 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on April 28, 2015, 05:51:57 pmThe best you can hope for is being up to speed with a very small subset of the latest tech. Choose wisely

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 06:19:29 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 28, 2015, 06:16:03 pmHa! Yes, no doubt. Thanks!