Why Are Texas Instruments Calculators So Expensive? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 04:10:09 am
content: That is pretty much what I thought (politics and lobbying) and remember. I went from the programmable TI-55-II and TI-66 (which I still have) to the graphing Casio FX-7000G to the graphing HP48G and have stayed with HP for RPN ever since but HP basically exited the calculator market years ago and there is no suitable replacement for the HP50g which has its own problems that were never fixed.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 04:23:27 am
content: I strongly prefer RPN, so I stick with HP calcs. Currently my collection is an HP50g, HP35s (the reissue one), and my mint condition HP16c. Would like to add a 15c to that eventually.If I need CAS, I use computer tools anymore. Maple, primarily. Python for many other things.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 11:57:50 am
content: I myself have an HP48G, 50G, and Prime, and I have to say they are calculators that make having a separate calculator worth it. I have not found a computer calculator anywhere near as nice to use as even the 48G. Even emulators for any of those calculators are just annoying to use compared to a dedicated keyboard layout and software intended to do calculations. RPN is also great.Out of all of them I use my HP Prime the most, for a few reasons. For one, it has a rechargeable lithium battery (replaceable too!), so I don't have to waste expensive AAAs. For two, the screen is awesome, backlit and full colour, it's perfectly readable, and the capacitive touch screen is a nice touch too, really nice to use in the dark.The HP50G would be my second pick, and it has I think the best implementation of HP style RPN there is. You can do friggin CAS stuff on RPN! It can actually be practical and efficient once you get used to it, but a lot of the functions are harder to get to, and not as nice to use as the Prime.I don't think I can ever forgive Ti for ripping off students by selling <5 dollars worth of plastic and Z80 for a hundred fucking bucks. That's what you get for cornering the market Texas style I guess.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 12:53:35 pm
content: It's not even TI's fault, but rather the fault of lazy teachers.Teachers, at least in my corner of the world, have an above-average social status, which is mostly due to the fact that they can cause much distress when they go on a strike...As it is, a regular teach will ALWAYS prefer TI calculators, as all training manuals come preformatted for these calculators. I think that teachers are actually given free TI calculators to use in their classes.And while you could purchase your kid a different brand calculator, the outcome would be that your kid would get next to zero support from the teacher to do the exercises on his "non-standard" calculator!Apart from my Test Equipment Addiction, I kind of collect calculators and used some during my education.The two that stand out are:- Casio FX-850P/FX-880P: BASIC programmable, two lines of text, lots of memory, built-in math/physics library! I heavily relied on this machine during my engineering course and I excelled in many tests due to having programmed tools to help me in exams. For example in on exam we had to build a SIMPLEX set of rules and determine the most efficient way to setup a production line. While others had to calculate the SIMPLEX algorithm manually for about an hour, I had it done in 5 minutes: my software would tell me the values to put in the exam...- HP 48GX: this one I used at the second half of my course, as soon as it came out. What a machine! Thermodynamics was a piece of cake, as I had created objects with all relevant molecules. I programmed many tools for classes and learned a lot though it. This was the perfect calculator.Nowadays I have of course:TI 92/92+/Voyager 200: probably the last great TI calculatorTI CX CAS: I have the older B/W screen one, my daughter uses the newer TI CX (no CAS) with colour screen. It has tons of functions like the HP 50G/Prime, but it is clearly made for schools. I hate this calculator!TI 84/84+: Ridiculous calculators. Even more ridiculous is that they are still being sold. It is a complete ripp-off!TI 89: much like the 92, but in "normal" form factor. Not bad!HP 50G: Great replacement for the HP 48GX - more modern, faster with SD card support for unlimited memoryHP Prime: This is probably the single best calculator in the market and it is sold for a rather ridiculous price. But it does come with a certain learning curve and in my modest opinion it suffers a bit from HP trying to conquer the educational market. It has the stupid exam mode, for instance.To stay on topic: Have you ever wondered why calculator manufactures have this silly keyboard layout where alpha-characters are ordered from A-Z instead of QWERTY style? That is so because of the exam rules: no calculator with QWERTY keyboard is allowed in any exam. Ridiculous!Regards,Vitor

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 05:20:33 pm
content: I don't mind the alphabetical order, this is a calculator not a word processor.I think I agree with your listing quite a bit, and your reasoning is exactly what is explained in the video, and it is Ti's fault. They are the ones selling the damn thing, and because all the books are written for Ti calcs, because their hands in things, nobody wants to buy anything else.I started talking college math classes when I was 13, and brought my dad's old HP 48G, and I fell in love with it. For Algebra, it was about as good as anything else. I installed a function value list, like what the Ti and modern HP calcs have, just because it was useful, along with (of course) a few games. The 50G was bought towards the second half of that class, and used for my (awful), online precalc class. At its peak, it was /really/ nice to use, the RPN flowed like a river for me, and I could get a lot done once I got used to the somewhat clunky interface.The HP Prime I had during Calculus 1 and 2, and while all the other students were on computers (this was in a computer lab), using Maple, I was sitting with my HP Prime, running circles around them, getting results before anyone else (yes I'm that person). I could just plug shit in, and get the answer right away to help confirm what I was solving. My teacher was really nice too, and let everyone use a calculator and a computer (which I never used, not even once), AND an entire sheet of paper, containing whatever you wanted (which I put in the calculator). That was a really fun class.

author: chriswebb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 06:09:30 pm
content: I am a programmer, and basically owe my career to TI because the first thing I ever programmed with was TI-Basic. This was before I ever had a computer worth a damn or even knew that computers could be used for more than just typing courses, word processors/spreadsheets, and video games.I started with an 82 in 5th grade switching to an 89 in 9th or 10th sticking with that through college. I never could like HP's as the good ones seemed to be too specialized and limited (hp 12c I knew of through my dad) and didn't like RPN as I was more used to the normal way of thinking about equations. The graphing equivalents seemed like rip-offs to my ignorant self (Growing up in the 90s TI's were like LL bean or jansport backpacks and northface fleeces,) and the TI was approved for standardized testing and therefore my school. Plus we could all trade apps, games and such on the TI, especially since my school didn't allow phones at all (way before the days of smart phones, but they probably still don't.)I will always have a special place in my heart for them because to my young self the whole was much greater than the sum of the parts.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 07:18:43 pm
content: Quote from: Ampera on February 01, 2019, 11:57:50 amI have a 48G+. Note that it works fine with rechargeable NiMh batteries.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 07:29:54 pm
content: Quote from: chriswebb on February 01, 2019, 06:09:30 pmSpecialized isn't always bad though. Both of my other calculators support working in hex or octal, but it's way clunky to get to it compared to the HP16C, which was designed as a computer scientist/programmer calculator from the outset.As for infix vs. RPN, RPN is harder to pick up initially but it rewards putting time into it. You can express most things with many fewer keystrokes (and never need parentheses).

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 08:50:57 pm
content: Schools are shifting to Casio here in the UK.I use an Hp 35S myself. I need something programmable I can remember how to use (50g is a no there)The real reason is that no one knows what the fuck they are doing because humans have been using keystroke memory. If you even moved the buttons on a TI calc no maths teachers would be able to use them. Thus the monopoly of idiots reigns and who is to say TI shouldn’t milk it. I would

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 01:55:25 am
content: Quote from: Bicurico on February 01, 2019, 12:53:35 pmAlso:Uses 4xAAA instead of 3xAAA of the earlier models.Higher contrast screen than HP58g.Lithium coin cell for memory backup.But:While faster, the HP50 also has longer latency due to a flawed design which at least to me is a major annoyance. Did that keystroke enter or is it just waiting? I suspect this is related to the design flaw in the interrupt system which prevents alarms from working reliably.As far as I know, HP's calculator division had been laid off by the time of the HP50g so the design was contracted out and I am surprised it is as good as it is.QuoteA QWERTY layout would be nice but it conflicts with having a display with a suitable height for displaying the stack. I did really like the horizontal layout of my TI-66 but that format never became popular for whatever reason.To me this suggests that a horizontal clamshell design with HP50g features and QWERTY arrangement like a tiny netbook would be ideal. It would not be that much thicker because display bezels can be made so thin these days and it does away with the need of a separate protective case.Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 01, 2019, 07:18:43 pmI used my HP48g with NiMH cells and now use my HP50g with NiMH cells. Low discharge NiMH cells were a major improvement for this sort of application.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 06:25:35 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 01, 2019, 07:18:43 pmWell of course they do, but they will die faster than regular batteries, require a separate charger, need to be purchased separately (and are not cheap to get decent ones), and can't be topped up by a simple 5v USB charger or even a battery bank (although you could swap AAAs).

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 05:39:38 am
content: Quote from: Ampera on February 02, 2019, 06:25:35 amOperating life is not a problem for a sanely designed calculator.QuoteSo I am not beholden to the manufacturer and the charger does not need to be built in. Would you use the same argument against Apple's modern dongle centric designs?QuoteGood rechargeable AA and AAA NiMH cells are less expensive than rechargeable lithium cells. And cheap ubiquitous alkaline cells can be used in an emergency. Convenience stores carry AAs and AAAs but not a selection of non-standard lithium batteries.QuoteThey do make small AA and AAA chargers which operate directly off line power, or USB power, or solar.I hate embedded lithium rechargeable batteries; they have poor cycle life, are expensive, unreliable, and their safety issues require manufacturer lock-in which results in monopoly prices. They do have good energy density but this has more often resulted in designs which waste power or are fashionably thin rather than higher operating life.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 05:49:02 am
content: Quote from: Ampera on February 01, 2019, 11:57:50 amI have several Ti calculators including the nSpire but they always need recharging every time I try and use one. I also have several Casio's but it's the HP Prime I use on a daily basis along with a Sharp EL506EX (for quick base conversions). The HP50G is OK but since I've got the Prime I've not used it.Out of all my calculators, the HP prime is by far the most used and useful.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 09:27:11 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 03, 2019, 05:39:38 am

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 05:05:30 pm
content: Quote from: Ampera on February 03, 2019, 09:27:11 amThis gets down to the crux of the problem. A whole several days? My HP48g ran for more than a year on 3xAAA and my HP50g lasts almost as long on 4xAAA. I can live with yearly recharging. But if they had used rechargable lithium batteries, the batteries would have reached their operating life limit of 1 or 2 years before their cycle time. I used the same set of 3xAAA NiMH cells in my HP48g for more than a decade. These batteries also finally died due to their operating life limit (dendrite shorts) but at least it took more than a decade.Indeed, I was recharging these batteries less often than I would have had to replace a rechargable lithium (1) which is a pretty good argument that alkaline cells would have been more economical. This changes when energy density requirements are higher but even then, the NiMH cells are more economical up to the point where their energy density is not high enough.(1) Rechargable lithium operating life strongly depends on the integrated charge state as well as the number of charge cycles. They wear out just sitting there and especially so at higher charge levels which is why cells are sometimes derated in capacity for longer operating life. Manufacturers of course take advantage of this in ways detrimental to their customers.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 05:17:17 pm
content: I'm not sure why batteries are even a thing on calculators. If you look at the Casio ones they're quite happy running off solar only in a moderately bright room such as a classroom. I actually took the batteries out of my FX-991 EX PLUS to see if it'd work and it did. And they're not exactly junk those - full solver built in, engineering units etc.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 05:50:11 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 03, 2019, 05:17:17 pmMy "spare" calculator is a solar TI-35 but slightly more powerful units cannot be sustained with solar alone while batteries can last months to years at which point the inconvenience of battery replacement or charging is insignificant.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 06:12:29 pm
content: Not so sure about that. Those 991's are pretty powerful and very fast. Run rings around my HP35s and my old HP50g.I use the HP35s mostly though because it works the same way my brain does.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 06:51:07 pm
content: A basic programmable scientific RPN with multiline display could be powered by indoor solar but HP never made such a thing or I would own it. Besides RPN operation, I really like a visible stack.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 07:49:21 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 03, 2019, 05:39:38 amAgree with that. And they are much safer too. In case it matters.Before trying, I thought it would be a slight annoyance, but in practice it's not. I use rechargeable VARTA AAA batteries (1000mAh), and the operating/off time I get is very good. Certainly much longer than the HP prime with its LiPo battery (obviously they don't draw the same amount of power!) The only thing is you have to have 6 batteries in total, or have spare alkaline ones just for the recharge time. With my fast NiMh charger, it's not even that much longer than a LiPo recharge.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 07:53:46 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 03, 2019, 06:51:07 pmAsk SwissMicros. They may be interested in releasing such a calculator.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 08:34:38 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 03, 2019, 05:05:30 pmMy Sharp calculators are all basic scientific and I can't remember the last time I needed to change batteries on one of them. In terms of the graphing calculators, the Casio's have the best life but they are bulky and I much prefer the HP Prime. I charge it about once a month but my use is light.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 09:51:40 pm
content: As others have said, to me the price is a reflection of the "captive market" created by TI. They created such ecosystem around their calculators that teachers will stick to that road. But that dominance did not exist in my home country (Brasil), where during school and university years the ones with a TI calculator were alone in a sea of Casios and HPs. However, back then calculators were absolutely banned from tests in school and, at the university, no alphanumeric calculators were allowed. I personally think that people should memorize the four basic operations from zero through nine (the most common operations in basic school), but YMMV.Here in the US, however, I see so many used calculators in the local classified websites that it is almost pointless to buy new.I myself had a HP48SX that simply died with no reason several years later. Fortunately to me, my wife gave me her HP48GX that I still use today. At work I have a HP35S that I bought for cheap (so I am not afraid of having my HP48 stolen) and both see the most action in base conversions (64-bit on the HP48 and 40-bit on the HP35). I also like that it has more than one leve of stack display (although nothing beats the larger screen of the HP48 in this regard). I was always curious about the HP50G, but never bit the bullet to get one. I also have a HP11C just for curiosity and I absolutely love its look and feel, but the lack of base conversions keeps it relegated to minor tasks.The first thing I ever programmed in life was my dad's TI-59 - it was a joy. Years later I bought a TI-66 which uses the same programmable features, but the lack of base conversions is a bit of a drawback to me. I also had a TI-89 Titanium that I used at work, but both HPs I mentioned above run circles around it so I sold it.As for batteries, the HP11C, the HP35S and the TI-66 run for decades on their small button cells. The HP48GX eats alkaline batteries every three months of heavy use, but I don't mind at all.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 10:31:11 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 03, 2019, 05:05:30 pmMy HP48G and 50G never lasted that long on the same usage I gave to the HP Prime. They'd last maybe a couple months or so of light-moderate use, with the HP 50G being on the lower end of that spectrum.Regardless, I think the moral of the story is we're free to like our batteries however, you like replaceable cells, I like my self-contained lipos.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 02:58:44 pm
content: BecUse it get you through 100000$ or more of math classes for the price of a ti89.Best fucking deal i ever got. And its all about the software.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 02:31:13 pm
content: Been using eneloops in my 48sx (and nearly everything else) since they were first available in quantity around 2006.For the guy whose 48sx won't turn on, press down below the screen and try. They foam rubberish strip that presses the keyboard flex membrane against the main board deteriorates and doesn't press enough to get a good connection.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2019, 04:14:18 am
content: Quote from: eugenenine on February 08, 2019, 02:31:13 pmIt took me 10+ years to wear out my first generation Eneloops which lasted 5 times longer than the standard NiMH cells I was buying previously. I now have 4th generation Eneloops bought a couple years ago and of course they still run like new and are a big improvement. I did not even bother to buy an extra set for my HP50g this time.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2019, 05:33:23 am
content: I used an HP 28S in college. Loved that thing. After graduation, I treated myself to a 48GX. Was happy with that, but then I remember hearing that HP was exiting the calculator market and I freaked out, knowing I could never go back to infix. So I ran out and bought a few 32S-II's for emergency backup.Since HP got back into calculators, i haven't gotten any of the new ones, though I do have a WP-34, which uses the hardware of one of the new guys.I don't program the calculators so much these days, and so the HP-48GX isn't so important to me anymore, and it is often slow to respond to the keyboard. I use those HP-32S units all the time.A feature i really liked on the 48, though, was the ability to do partial fraction decompositions. Hot damn!

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2019, 05:42:21 am
content: I want to get a 48 myself sometime...while the 50g has been good to me, it has one major flaw in not having a full size enter key in the traditional spot.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2019, 10:55:19 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 09, 2019, 04:14:18 amI bought some Sanyo 1650mAH NiMH from digikey in 1999 and at 10 years they still had 80% capacity. I'm still using my first set of 2006 Eneloops in my 48sx, lost track of how many times they have been charged.I bought my 48sx in 1992 after saving a year for it, was still in my first year of college.

author: malagas_on_fire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2019, 11:54:12 pm
content: Fortunally we could choose back in 90's the Casio or Ti models for high school. however never saw one using a scientific texas instruments on the class, always casio's when only scientific were allowed. And you needed a graphic calcultator on the final exam on maths... yeah... screw you're pocket...About features for the price on TI, the only exception in the graphing calculator back then was the ti 89 or voyager series but too pricey either., but again i could be wrong since we didn't see other models from other brands.

author: GeoffreyF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2019, 12:25:30 am
content: Quote from: 0culus on February 01, 2019, 04:23:27 amDo you know about SwissMicros.com? If not, you should. Dave did a bit on their HP 42S knock off

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2019, 06:38:43 am
content: Quote from: GeoffreyF on February 10, 2019, 12:25:30 amYeah, they have nice stuff. However, I'm a bit of an HP collector (test equipment and calculators) so I prefer to find nicely kept older examples. I'm looking at an HP48GX on fleabay right now...