Keysight MSOX2014 or Rigol MSO1074Z - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: cio74
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 09:14:07 pm
content: Hello,Last year I have sold my Agilent 7014A due not using it at all but now I am again after a scope. Mainly used for digital debug, not much than a LA won't do but always nice to operate a scope than an USB LA. I write code for Cortex-M4 MCU's running at 120Mhz with peripherals running from 4Khz to 20Mhz.I already have 2 USB scopes, a Cleverscope CS328 (2 analog / 8 digital, 100 MHz) and a Picoscope 3206D (2 analog / 16 digital, 100 Mhz). Also own a Saleae Logic 8.I don't use any of them much but planning to do some measurements that will require operating the oscilloscope in a portable way. While I can definitely do with a laptop and one of the above USB scopes I would rather buy a bench scope.In the end I have shortlisted my options to either the Keysight MSOX 2014 and Rigol MSO1074Z, both offering 4 analog channels, 100Mhz bandwidth, 8 digital for Keysight and 16 for Rigol. I know fir sure that Keysight won't do serial decoding on digital inputs, not sure about Rigol, haven't read full specs yet.Please note I came from 7014A which has 13" TFT, that was nice, so easy to read. I also loved the VGA out and LAN connection, used to take screenshots and save them directly on PC.Am I paying a lot for the name with Keysight? Have Rigol finally solved their firmware issues? Would I trust both that the measurement is right and eliminate any doubt about it?Thanks.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 11:31:17 pm
content: I can probably help here, I have an MSO1074Z-S and both an Agilent/Keysight X3000A and 7000B, so close to what you're used to and comparing.The MSO1074Z will decode on the LA channels, but keep in mind that it'll work 4+0, 3+8 or 2+16 channels, that's not often mentioned, but in practice it's seldom a problem. For day to day usability as a scope I much prefer the Agilents, the UI is super fast and intuitive whereas the Rigol UI can often get in the way of your workflow, it's comparitively slow and the vertical controls are multiplexed for example, and the rotary encoders particularly on the multifuntion knob are a bit hit and miss.I find the Rigol screen is pretty tiny for the resolution, whereas the X2000/3000 is about right.I use the Agilents on the bench and the Rigol is my field scope. You are pushing it just a tad with 120MHz M4, and a 70/100MHz scope but it's doable. But remember the X2000A can be liberated to 200MHz and all options too. I do find it a bit weird that The X2000A won't decode serial on the LA.If you've used a 7000 you'll be right at home with an X2000. Although the 7000 is vxWorks and the X2000 is Windows CE, the look and feel is very similar.

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2016, 08:58:25 am
content: For a portable scope I would tend towards the Rigol as it is small and handy but for bench scope (=your daily scope) I would propose the 3000 series.I bought a Keysight 2000x series scope and quickly sold it as I often hit the limitations. I then bought a used 3000x series scope and this one I like a lot. If you are thinking of using it as a LA, do not get the 2000 series.I just setup a session with CAN , Rx/Tx and two SPI devices where I needed to check all interacting signals. That was eight needed channels and the serial decoders for CAN and MOSI/MISO simultaniously. No way to do this on the 2000 series. Tough the 2000 series would be OK if you just need some single I2C or SPI stuff but for more you will need the 3000 series. Take your time and you will find a used one for a good price.Then get a VGA/LAN adapter for a bigger screen and you are all set for the next years.As the 3000 series can be 'option-enhanced' and 'MSOed' easily (*) it IMHO the best way.[Edited: When I had the 2000 series I made some notes I just digged out]*=with the disadvantage, that the booting time of the already slow booting scope isdoubledlonger as it first boots up from the internal flash and then needs to boot again from the USB stick. Booting time with USB stick is about 65 seconds compared to 40 seconds without.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2016, 09:49:13 am
content: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Keysight-Used-MSOX3024T-Oscilloscope-200-MHz-4-16-channel-Agilent-MSOX3024T-/172135649481

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2016, 11:49:21 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on March 18, 2016, 09:49:13 amHow about that?http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teledyne-LeCroy-WS3024-WaveSurfer-Oscilloscope-200-MHz-4-GS-s-4-Ch-10-Mpts-ch-/121536992553?hash=item1c4c2b5529:g:JTMAAOSwyZ5UqtVmMuch nicer than the overpriced DSOX3000T Series.

author: cio74
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2016, 05:10:53 pm
content: Thank you guys for your comments and advices, the last one may not ship to the UK. Plenty of nice equipment on Ebay US but most sellers won't bother to ship it overseas or when they do the shipping cost is half the price of the equipment.I understand that Keysight/Agilent 2000 series is not a good for what I intend to use it for, 3000 series is a little expensive but pretty much tick everything I want, how about Rigol 4000 series, any good?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2016, 05:53:27 pm
content: Quote from: cio74 on March 18, 2016, 05:10:53 pmThere are dropshippers who essentially will relay stuff to you.In the end you'll very likely save quite a bit of money over buying in the EU or the UK. Even after shipping and VAT.

author: cio74
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2016, 06:47:13 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 18, 2016, 05:53:27 pmI have found in the UK a few ex-demo 3000 series at around £2.5k MSO enabled, looks like a good price. Any advice about buying ex-demo equipment? VAT is not of an issue, company is VAT registered and can claim it back.Thanks.

author: cio74
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2016, 06:55:10 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 18, 2016, 11:49:21 amGot this replyNo shipping outside of USA.Best Regards,Rich MuroTestRackGod Bless America

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2016, 07:35:06 pm
content: Quote from: cio74 on March 18, 2016, 06:47:13 pmThe link I posted is a sale direct from Keysight themselves.I bought an MSO-X3054A via the same route a couple of years ago; it was like new. Took a few weeks to ship from the factory in Malaysia, but that's my only complaint.Do check what options you get, or can add on as an extra. Pricing for options seems to vary on a random basis depending on whether they're doing a bundle package at the time, or whether they're available to buy at a discounted price with the scope.

author: cio74
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2016, 07:41:27 pm
content: Thank you Andy, I have been in contact with them over the past days, they ship from Singapore and invoice from the UK, that's fine.The alternative I was talking about is from Aspen Electronics,http://www.keysight.aspen-electronics.com/ex-demo-equipmentbut obvious a different scope for the £2.5k price tag. I have to call and see if they come with any option enabled.

author: cio74
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2016, 12:00:55 pm
content: Did an experiment and yesterday got a Rigol MSO1074-Z from Telonic, the official Rigol UK distributor. Speaking of, excellent guys, very helpful and make you feel like home.Anyway, at home after a few attempts it's just not my thing, text too small on display, I don't have the eyesight I once used to have. So I put it on sale and looking to get one either a 4000 series from Rigol or the 3000X/T series from Agilent/Keysight. Whatever it would be, it has to have a bigger screen and VGA output...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2016, 12:47:30 pm
content: You didn't just return the MSO1074-Z?

author: cio74
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2016, 02:23:07 pm
content: It was pick-up in store, not sure if I can return it, it's not like purchased over the internet.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2016, 02:42:06 pm
content: Quote from: cio74 on March 19, 2016, 12:00:55 pmQuote from: Howardlong on March 17, 2016, 11:31:17 pm<Nonchalant whistle emoji here>As a field scope, the form factor and features make the MSO1000Z series great, but on the bench for everyday use I definitely prefer the slightly bigger screen, it makes a significant difference. I do usually need to put on me readers for the Rigol!

author: Helix70
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2016, 11:44:48 am
content: Quote from: cio74 on March 19, 2016, 12:00:55 pmVGA is an optional extra (bundled with LAN) on the 3000X series, just FYI. If buying new, you can usually get the dealer to help with that, just mention that the R&S or Lecroy have it built in, and one may magically appear in the quote.

author: cio74
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2016, 12:48:40 pm
content: I'll buy one of that 3000 series from Keysight, after the issues I had with the software and PC connectivity for the 1000Z model. I am reluctant to consider the 4000 series made by Rigol, something is telling me it's still unfinished product with few or more issues. For my own peace of mind I'll just get a Keysight 3000 and if the screen is too small buy the VGA option. Having said that I do consider that for someone else Rigol could be the best scope on Earth and I am sure it is.

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2016, 02:26:33 pm
content: Quote from: cio74 on March 20, 2016, 12:48:40 pmSmart move. You'll find no test equipment company better in terms of support than Keysight. It's a rock solid choice for now and the future.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2016, 03:32:11 pm
content: I had some experience with the Rigol 4000 series a few years ago.I'm led to believe the firmware issues that I mentioned at the time are now largely sorted, though as I no longer have access to the scope, I can't be sure.What I do know, is that although the Rigol is definitely the better choice if you need a very long memory depth, the Keysight 3000X is a much more responsive, nicer to use instrument. For serial decoding, which is a feature I use a lot, there's absolutely no comparison.

author: cio74
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2016, 04:58:47 pm
content: I am in the market to get one, there are a few 3000A and a few 3000T, the T is touch screen, any other major differences between A and T?Touch, Discover, SolveThe InfiniiVision 3000A X-Series redefined oscilloscopes. It saw the most signal detail, provided more functionality than any other oscilloscope, and gave you maximum investment protection. It was also the most successful oscilloscope in Hewlett Packard, Agilent and Keysight Technologies, Inc.’s history. The 3000T X-Series continues that legacy.The 3000T X-Series takes everything that was revolutionary about the A model and adds a capacitive touch screen, a user interface designed for touch, and the exclusive Zone touch trigger, all combined with an industry-leading uncompromised update rate of 1 million wfm/s to give you the confidence that you’re seeing all of your signal detail, and the ability to discover any issues. And the addition of new analysis capabilities help you solve your hardest problems quickly.The 3000T X-Series once again redefines what you can expect in a general purpose oscilloscope by providing all of the performance and capability you need to get to measurement insights fasterTouch, Discover, SolveThe InfiniiVision 3000A X-Series redefined oscilloscopes. It saw the most signal detail, provided more functionality than any other oscilloscope, and gave you maximum investment protection. It was also the most successful oscilloscope in Hewlett Packard, Agilent and Keysight Technologies, Inc.’s history. The 3000T X-Series continues that legacy.The 3000T X-Series takes everything that was revolutionary about the A model and adds a capacitive touch screen, a user interface designed for touch, and the exclusive Zone touch trigger, all combined with an industry-leading uncompromised update rate of 1 million wfm/s to give you the confidence that you’re seeing all of your signal detail, and the ability to discover any issues. And the addition of new analysis capabilities help you solve your hardest problems quickly.The 3000T X-Series once again redefines what you can expect in a general purpose oscilloscope by providing all of the performance and capability you need to get to measurement insights faster:Anyway, if I find a better prices A model I'll probably just go for it.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2016, 05:21:04 pm
content: Quote from: cio74 on March 20, 2016, 12:48:40 pmHere you go...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2016, 05:31:06 pm
content: Quote from: cio74 on March 20, 2016, 12:48:40 pmI strongly suggest to also look at Lecroy's Wavesurfer 3000 series instead of blindly buying an oscilloscope again. I almost bought one when it just came out but back then it didn't had the CAN decoding I needed. Maybe you could get a Keysight 3000X and a Wavesurfer 3000 on loan and see which one suits you best after doing some testing.

author: cio74
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2016, 06:00:03 pm
content: I can't easily find a LeCroy in the UK. I should be happy with a Keysight, had an Agilent 7000 before and it was very good. Agreed, if I could have one for a few days it would be excellent, shall look around if I can loan one.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2016, 06:56:04 pm
content: Quote from: cio74 on March 20, 2016, 06:00:03 pmI'd ask Wuerstchenhund for a contact at Lecroy so maybe he can hook you up. AFAIK Lecroy has a local office in the UK so they should be easy to deal with.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 07:14:12 am
content: Provided you don't want a demo first, you can buy one from RS:http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/digital-oscilloscopes/8133650/

author: cio74
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 09:06:12 am
content: I have emailed Rigol UK this morning and see about returning the 1074Z-S., see how it goes.About LeCroy, I have never had one and don't know what to say. I have found a company that rent themhttp://www.livingston.co.uk/s_general-purpose/oscilloscopes/No idea about prices, I'll call later and see.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 04:45:44 pm
content: Quote from: cio74 on March 20, 2016, 06:00:03 pmThe contact details for LeCroy UK's office are here:http://teledynelecroy.com/support/contact/(just select 'United Kingdom' as country)It's your choice of course but I'd really recommend to have a look at the WaveSurfer 3000. Aside from being a much better scope than the DSOX3kA/T in pretty much any aspect, it's also noticeably cheaper than the Keysight (a few hundred for the 200MHz variant to a few grands for the 500MHz variant). And this even before the fact that with the WaveSurfer you're not paying extra for basic things like a simple LAN port.The DSOX3k was a great scope when it came out some 5 years ago but these days you do pay over the odds for a scope with tiny sample memory (4M, which in certain situations turns into only 2M), a small screen and the Keysight label.As nctnico said, get some loaners from all vendors that are within your budget and put them through their paces. Scopes that expensive shouldn't be bought blindly.Tip: when you call LeCroy, be sure to mention 'Keysight' as often as possible, and let them know that Keysight would be your first choice (no matter if that's actually the case or not). Then ask if they can make you a really good offer for a WS3000 with all options and the bandwidth you want. They often also have demo scopes that are priced at a lot less than factory new ones, with full warranty. Be sure to ask for them.

author: cio74
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 05:20:30 pm
content: My problem getting one of this is absolutely no idea how they are, compared to a Keysight/Agilent. Even if I get a good number it still does not tell me much.I am waiting a call from Livinston about getting a LeCroy for a weekend, I'll see how it goes.Just tried Teledyne's UK number and it disconnects immediately, hope their scopes are better

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 07:21:05 pm
content: Quote from: cio74 on March 21, 2016, 05:20:30 pmDepends on what you look at. LeCroy is pretty much a high end scope manufacturer (they offer stuff you can't get anywhere else, not even from Keysight), and their mid-range (which starts with the WaveSurfer 3000) and hig-end scopes are probably the best you can find on the market. They already had deep memory scopes with advanced maths when others like HP's and Tek's offerings were slow and basic, and have pretty much been a technology leader since then.On the other side however, LeCroy's low-end scopes however (called WaveAce and WaveJet) suck, plain and simple. These scopes are rebadged Siglent (WaveAce) and Iwatsu (WaveJet) low-end scopes, and especially the Siglent rebadges aren't worth their money. The WaveJets are OK-ish although outdated, and it shows that LeCroy has no interest in the entry-level segment. If that's the class of scope you're looking at then I'd look at something else.As to the WaveSurfer 3000, compared to Keysight it offers better maths and FFT (12k pts with the DSOX3kT vs 1M with the WS3k), more sample memory (10M vs 4M/2M), larger screen with higher resolution, an user interface that was designed from the ground up for touch operation (called MAUI), network and VGA ports as standard, plus a probe interface (ProBus) that is common across all LeCroy mid-range and lower high-end scopes and which has not changed since it came out back in the '90s, which means there's a large selection of new and 2nd hand probes available which regularly are a lot less expensive than the Agilent/Keysight equivalent.The quirky bit on LeCroy scopes is that horizontal and vertical controls are swapped, i.e. horizontal is left and vertical right. Other than that it's straight forward, and not much different than any other modern scope.QuoteThat's why I strongly recommend to get a loaner and try it out yourself.QuoteLivingston, hmm? I wouldn't hold my breath, they make money with rentals and will very likely charge you for giving you one.Loaners should be sorted out with the manufacturer, not with resellers.QuoteWell, it's the number of their UK offices not a hotline so I'd not expect anyone to pick up after 0400pm. They recently changed offices (as they went together with Anritsu UK) so maybe the number isn't correct.Let me know if you can't get anywhere and I'll get a contact for you.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 12:44:15 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 21, 2016, 07:21:05 pmLike the active probe interface on the HP products which was continued through Agilent and to Keysight and has remained compatible since the 90's? Sounds like its much the same when you put it that way. Pricing varies wildly from market to market, and the features offered by the different manufacturers are often not comparable, I've seen no evidence that Lecroy probes are significantly cheaper second hand. You like to make all these grand statements about Lecroy, but many of them are misleading or incorrect, pull your head in.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 08:34:43 am
content: Quote from: Someone on March 22, 2016, 12:44:15 amRegarding the HP/Agilent/Keysight Autoprobe interface, it covers a multitude of sins, so counter intuitively it's quite possible that an Autoprobe probe might not work on an Autoprobe scope. However, sometimes help is at hand ;-)https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-mso-500060007000-anyone-hacked-these-scopes/msg864786/#msg864786

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 09:25:26 am
content: Quote from: Someone on March 22, 2016, 12:44:15 amWell that only sounds the same until you actually try to use certain probe/scope combinations and find out they don't work. Because just because the HPAK Autoprobe interface is the same does not mean all probes work on all scopes, as there are certain compatibility issues. Even when the scope is newer than the probe.You don't get these issues on LeCroy. All newer scopes with ProBus support pretty much every ProBus probe ever made.QuoteStrange, when people (not just me) have on occasion discussed pricing in other threads, but I guess you missed that. Sometimes a simple ebay search of sold items helps as well, although sometimes you'd have to watch a longer time span.As to markets being different, well that may be true but frankly if you live in far off places like Kyrgyzstan then it's unlikely you'll find a great deal for any item, no matter which label it carries. Those in a more fortunate geographical area will very likely just go to ebay, and as a matter of fact it's usually stuff that's located in the US that is the cheapest, no matter what manufacturer.QuoteHow about you prove me wrong then? If "many of them" are "misleading or incorrect" it should be easy for you to demonstrate where exactly I'm wrong.If you can't then how about you "pull your head in" instead?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 08:50:38 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on March 22, 2016, 08:34:43 amThey all run the same business more or less, Lecroy have compatibility charts and probes are not 100% supported across all scopes they plug into. Very similar to Keysight who also have compatibility charts to show which combinations work, one catch is that the lower tier Keysight scopes miss some of the interface features and support a smaller subset, but they make it clear.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 22, 2016, 09:25:26 amYou never seem to bring any fact or proof, and then ask us all to disprove it. How about 50MHz current probes, ebay ended listings from ebay.com, and current listings.I got several results for each, and blow me down the Agilent/Keysight probes were cheaper by 20% or more on average. In the long term they appear to be roughly similar in price.Like for like comparison, and when I check similar less clear comparisons on active probes such as 500-1000MHz differential probes, oh look once again the prices are very close to each other. The probes are not:Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 21, 2016, 07:21:05 pmThey are very comparable on price.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 22, 2016, 09:25:26 amI'm not the one evangelising on incorrect facts, so no I will pull you up when you misinform people.

author: cio74
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 10:39:52 pm
content: Thanks everyone for their advices, as it stands now I can get a Keysight 3024T for £2400 or a LeCroy 3024 for £2900. However I didn't get a chance to talk to anyone at Teledyne so I should do that before reaching to a conclusion.The guys at Livinston came back with an offer to lease me a Keysight so not much of a help.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 06:31:26 am
content: Quote from: Someone on March 22, 2016, 08:50:38 pmReally? Which probe does not work in what scope (scopes older than the probe don't count)?Please point to some evidence to your claim.QuoteAgain, just claims with no facts or evidence. What is "each", what exactly did you search for? And so on.QuoteWhich probes? Where's the evidence?QuoteYou're the one making claims without any substance or evidence. As I said, support your claims by fact or shut up. Simple as that.So far all you came up with is hot air.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 07:35:37 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 23, 2016, 06:31:26 amOne easy example that may be relevant to this thread, is the absence of support for the ZD500 (500MHz differential probe) on the WaveSurfer 3000, neither lists each other as compatible. I'm sure there are many more similar examples when you look at the compatibility charts.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 23, 2016, 06:31:26 amSee how I carefully explained the methodology to you, ebay.com either auctions that had ended or currently active auctions, the result was the same.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 08:12:52 am
content: Quote from: cio74 on March 22, 2016, 10:39:52 pmForget Livingston. Or any other reseller for that matter. Go directly to the manufacturers.£2400 for a DSOX3024T is a pretty good price. I assume that's a new scope with full warranty?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 08:39:47 am
content: Quote from: Someone on March 23, 2016, 07:35:37 amRight, which is why the ZD500 is specifically listed as accessory in the WaveSurfer 3000 spec sheets:http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/wavesurfer-3000-fact-sheet.pdfhttp://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/wavesurfer-3000-datasheet.pdfAnd yes, they work on the WS3000. BTST.QuoteNo, there aren't. Simply because (aside from their god-awful low end offerings which have no ProBus interface anyways), all of LeCroy's newer and current mid-range and high-end scopes including the WS3000 are all X-Stream scopes, which are all based on a common set of software. And that includes common probe support. The probes listed on the data sheets are not the only probes that work, they are simply probes that are currently available/recommended for that scope. All old ProBus probes are supported as well, and that pretty much includes ProBus probes that came out with the old 9300 Series scopes back in the '90s. New probes will get support in the X-Stream core software, and this will roll out to current and older scopes (some going back to 2001!) through software updates.But yeah, I can see how this is exactly the same as Keysight's Autoprobe interface, with different software stacks for pretty much each scope seriesQuoteNo, you didn't explain anything. You just came up with more made up hot air, and as expected still haven't shown any proof or evidence of your claims. Heck, you couldn't even explain for what exactly you were searching

author: cio74
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 08:52:40 am
content: Guys, can you please take it to the 'hack a dso' thread if you want to prove the right or wrong one, thanksI still can't get thru the phone line which to me seems unprofessionalTeledyne LeCroy(Now partnered with Anritsu EMEA Ltd)The Carriage BarnBartletts CourtLittlewick GreenBath RoadMaidenheadBerkshireSL6 3RXPhone: +44 (0)162 882 7611Fax: +44 (0)162 882 7610Email Sales: support.acuk@anritsu.comWeb Site:http://teledynelecroy.com/europeIf they don't bother to fix a phone line I think they don't really care much about their business.I'll get a Keysight.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 09:10:45 am
content: Quote from: cio74 on March 23, 2016, 08:52:40 amTry them:Anritsu EMEA Ltd.200 Capability Green, LutonBedfordshire, LU1 3LUU.K.Phone: +44-1582-433280Fax: +44-1582-731303Anritsu now deals with LeCroy sales, so they should be able to help you.QuoteWell, the phone number has changed, it just hasn't been updated on the main website (which definitely is poor, but happens all too often unfortunately, it even happened to Agilent).QuoteYour money, your choice. But £2400 for a DSOX3024T is a good offer if that's for a brand new scope with warranty.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 09:11:33 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 23, 2016, 08:39:47 amNice, so the webpages are incomplete which mislead me. The following document has a "compatibility chart" on page 247:http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/passive-probes.pdfThough it may just be downplaying the use of a higher frequency probe on a slower scope.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 23, 2016, 08:39:47 amStep by step you need?1. Go to a website with the address ebay.com2. Search for 50MHz current probes compatible with Lecroy Oscilloscopes, you can search for the current listings or for listings that finished3. Note the prices4. Repeat step 2 with the same criteria changing to a 50MHz current probe compatible with Keysight Oscilloscopes5. Note the prices6. Compare the different prices you have recordedThe result is prices that are almost the same. Even if you change to look at differential probes, again the prices are very similar, perhaps its collusion?

author: cio74
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 09:22:14 am
content: Keysight Malaysia is sells one used 3024T for that money, it comes with only 30 days warranty. Too risky?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 09:24:24 am
content: Quote from: Someone on March 23, 2016, 09:11:33 amThe Lecroy2007Probes and Accessories Catalog?And you're really surprised that a 2007 catalog does not list a scope that came out in 2014?Ah, I get it, that's a joke, right? Right??? Because seriously, no-one can't be *that* stupid.QuoteWhat I would have expected is what the exact search terms were, which models of probes you've been searching for and so on. Some links showing what you found would have also helped.I start to think that this isn't really a joke and that you're completely serious. Which is quite frightening, actually.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 09:29:33 am
content: Quote from: cio74 on March 23, 2016, 09:22:14 amYou tell me. Can you afford to potentially write off a part or all of the £2400 if there's a defect after 30 days?Of course you could also purchase a 3yr Repair Agreement (pretty much like a warranty) from Keysight, which would cover that. But then the price to compare is really £2400 + <price of 3yrs repair agreement> vs the £2900 for the WS3024 (which comes with 3yr warranty and 7yrs support).And I still would not recommend to make any decision without having actually tried all available/suitable scopes.

author: cio74
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 09:30:55 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 23, 2016, 09:10:45 am'Thank you for calling Anritsu, please leave your name and...'Out of curiosity I just called Keysight UK toll free number, got someone on the phone, explain the choices I have and he is supposed to come back with an offer.Customer support experience? No, this is pre-sales, but it looks promising...

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 09:44:08 am
content: Quote from: cio74 on March 23, 2016, 09:30:55 amMaybe closed over the Easter break?QuoteI mostly deal with the US entities so my experience with the UK parts is limited, but that pretty much mirrors the experience I had with R&S UK. That changes though once you get a contact, which you can pretty much call directly from then on, and who'll answer all questions and takes care of everything you need.Don't forget that LeCroy and Anritsu predominantly serve the high end market, and there it's pretty rare that someone calls for a scope (pretty much email and fax all the way). Keysight is really much better prepared for that, in fact better than anyone else (but then Keysight also has a large number of less expensive products). Others like LeCroy still need to learn how to properly cater for small customers and individuals.But yes, I understand that this is pretty annoying.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 10:23:09 am
content: Quote from: cio74 on March 23, 2016, 09:30:55 amMaybe you could try the Dutch Teledyne-Lecroy dealer. I had a quote pretty quick from them:http://www.arbenelux.com/en/brands/teledyne-lecroy/teledyne-lecroy-digital-oscilloscopes/

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 07:41:43 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 23, 2016, 09:29:33 amIf it's coming from Keysight, it will be in good condition. Our refurbishing process is very, very stringent and thorough.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 08:37:49 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight_DanielBogdanoff on March 23, 2016, 07:41:43 pmI'm sure it will be. Which even more begs the question why the factory outlet can't give more than a measly 30 days.Every complex product has a certain failure rate. It's inevitable. The warranty length expresses how much trust the manufacturer has in its product and in its own processes. If I didn't know from experience that Keysight refurbished products usually come in near perfect condition, based on the measly 30 days offered I'd certainly have my doubts.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 10:37:34 pm
content: I bought a Keysight Used (not premium used) 7104B a while ago from the Keysight ebay store on a 7 day warranty, very pleased with the scope, transaction and the reliability. Of course this is not a representative sample, but equally I've yet to hear of a bad transaction from their store. While it's a risk of course, it is a calculated one.

author: Helix70
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 10:54:21 pm
content: Quote from: cio74 on March 23, 2016, 09:30:55 amThis is the same experience I had with LeCroy. Took over a week to get a reply via email, and that was to buy three of them!By that time I had already ordered the Keysights. The dealer (Charles - Trio Test and Cal) came to my site (in another state) to discuss my needs. You are not just buying an oscilloscope, you are buying the after sales service.When you have a problem, how long are you prepared to wait then?

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 07:15:53 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on March 23, 2016, 10:37:34 pmMy scope wasn't explicitly sold as "premium used" either, though it certainly seemed to have been prepared to that standard. Aside from a sticker on the scope itself, and marks on the gold id rings around the BNC connectors to show that probes had been connected a few times, it was like new.All this makes selling a scope with only a 30 day warranty a bit... odd. I might think twice before buying such a high cost item with such a short warranty.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 07:33:06 am
content: Quote from: Helix70 on March 23, 2016, 10:54:21 pmReally.That's poor service, no wonder you went elsewhere.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 08:22:33 am
content: Quote from: Helix70 on March 23, 2016, 10:54:21 pmWell, to be fair, support does not go through the sales channel but for Europe through their support facility in Geneva. Which is a lot easier to contact. Also, email support via the main website works well, too. So support is as good as you'd expect from a big brand T&M provider.No question that sales in the UK (and probably many other EU countries) need to up their game, though. There's no excuse for them making it difficult to get a reply to a customer inquiry in a timely manner, or reach someone over the phone during normal office hours.BTW, it often helps to let a company know you've received poor service, ideally over methods with a certain public exposure like Twitter, and the outcome is often worth it

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 08:45:24 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on March 23, 2016, 10:37:34 pmThe risk is not with the transaction (as a buyer you're pretty much well protected on ebay anyways), the risk is that if there's a problem with the instrument (i.e. defect/failure) later on, something that can and does happen even with Keysight instruments, you might have to write off part or all the money you paid for it if that happens outside the 7 day/30day period. Did you calculate that in as well?I can see that say for an old HP 54600 scope that's now around 20 yrs old that giving more than say 7 days warranty would be excessive, however we're talking about scopes that are less than 10 years old (DSO7000) or in case of the DSOX3024T less than 2 years. You'd think they can afford to offer a better warranty for these devices than a measly 7 days/30 days.

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 12:33:12 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 24, 2016, 08:45:24 amJust email Keysight about an extended warranty. You'll be able to buy several years worth of coverage for a couple hundred bucks.And unlike LeCroy, they'll reply promptly.....If a company is slow to respond to a sales inquiry, imagine how "quickly" they'll respond to any issues you have with the equipment, LOL!

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 05:11:11 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 24, 2016, 08:45:24 amYes. I was referring to the whole piece, including if it self combusted on day 8.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 05:26:30 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on March 24, 2016, 12:33:12 pmStill there are so many places to buy a Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 from. If a company doesn't respond take your business somewhere else. It just takes some effort from the potential buyer but the OP seems very reluctant to put some effort into making some phone calls to test equipment dealers.

author: cio74
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 05:57:29 pm
content: It seems too much trouble with LeCroy, I'll stick to Keysight.Thanks everyone for their opinion.

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 06:07:54 pm
content: Quote from: cio74 on March 24, 2016, 05:57:29 pm

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 06:28:53 pm
content: Quote from: cio74 on March 24, 2016, 05:57:29 pmAgreedIn terms of 'human factors' I don't like the LeCroy design because it has such a basic front panel with minimal controls. The Keysight has a dedicated set of vertical controls for each channel for example. I know the LeCroy has a touchscreen to offset this but when I've seen images of this scope in action it seems very cluttered because of this. I think the user interface is a critical part of scope design so (for me at least) the LeCroy is not a contender.I recently saved an old HP54540C scope from the skip/dumpster at work and this only has one set of vertical controls that get shared across all four channels. I find it very annoying to use because of this. There's no way I'd want to pay big money for a scope that has this system.Black seems an odd choice of colour for test gear as well. I always assumed that test gear was pale in colour to reflect light energy and this helps with temperature stability. How hot would the LeCroy get if you left it near a window on a sunny day?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 06:39:26 pm
content: That is an odd way of reasoning... Choosing a scope based on the color of the casing10Mpts versus 1Mpts is a no brainer to me: 10Mpts it will be whatever the color of the casing!

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 06:42:21 pm
content: Gee, I love black test equipment - it looks so much more serious. The best part of Dave's custom Keysight scope he is giving away is the black front on it.To the OP - buy the Keysight, enjoy it and don't look back.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 07:17:31 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 24, 2016, 06:39:26 pmI didn't say I wouldn't buy it because it was black. I said I wouldn't buy it because of the user interfaceI then made an observation about the curious choice of colour and questioned how hot it would get if left in the sun. Try reading my post again if you are still confused.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 07:21:03 pm
content: It still doesn't make sense. Lots of scopes have a single knob for changing the volt/div setting and channel select buttons so there is nothing new or different there compared to other brands. There are actually several pros to this configuration because it makes the operation of math, digital, reference traces, etc more uniform.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 07:31:34 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 24, 2016, 07:21:03 pmI am just giving my own personal opinion on the user interface. The brand of the scope or any age/novelty value is irrelevant here.I don't like using scopes with shared vertical controls. I've tried it on scopes at work and also here at home. I'm not trying to suggest that everybody should dislike it just because I dislike it.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 07:41:43 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on March 24, 2016, 07:31:34 pmI'm not a fan of them either, even the Siglent handhelds have controls for each channel and AFAIK the only Siglent equipment with shared vertical controls is the SDS3000 series that LeCroy sell as WS3000.

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 07:44:22 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 24, 2016, 06:39:26 pmSo then, in your "no-brain" way of thinking the Rigol DS1054Z is superior to the Keysight 3104T because it has 24Mpts vs 1Mpts, right?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 07:57:11 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on March 24, 2016, 06:28:53 pmNo, not really. Pale colors are chosen because they give a cleaner look. That's it. It's a design element.Test equipment comes with a specified operating envelope, and as long as your temperature is within that envelope you're fine. If you need to rely on a scope's paint job to reflect enough light so that it stays within the permitted temperature range then you should seriously reconsider the choice of your lab environment.This aside, these LeCroy scopes do automatic internal re-calibrations of the analog path up to the ADC to compensate for changing temperatures or when certain settings are changed (this function can be switched off so that the calibration doesn't interfere with critical measurements). Most other scopes calibrate their internal paths once during start-up and don't care or compensate for temperature change, others require manual intervention to start calibration.QuoteDon't know, it probably depends on the circumstances. But again, if you leave sensitive test equipment in an environment where sunlight can heat up the housing enough to cause problems then you should reconsider your lab environment.And pretty much every piece of complex test equipment, even the ones in pale color, comes with a warning that it must not be left in the sun.Quote from: G0HZU on March 24, 2016, 07:31:34 pmIn my experience it takes many people a while to get used to the single control, especially when they are used to separate controls since back from the analog days. The longer a certain habit is used the more difficult it is to change it, but that's natural.QuoteSee, and I love them! I loved the old HP 54500 Series with single knob control, I love the single vertical control on most LeCroy's, and I love the single vertical knob on my R&S RTM1054. It's much more straight forward for me to simply select the channel and put in the setting, as I can do that without having to lift my hands. In fact, the biggest negative for me on my primary personal scope (a WavePro 7300A) are the separate vertical controls. Working with multiple channels gets more cumbersome, especially when a task requires regular adjustments on each channel.My personal gold standard in terms of front panel is still the HP 54500 Series with single knob control (one encoder for everything) and numerical keypad. Being able to dial in parameters (incl timebase or vertical) directly without having to use a knob was great. I loved that.BTW: for the WavePro 7zi(-A) Series, which has a detachable front panel (to use it away from the scope closer to the actual UUT, while remaining connected via USB cable), there's an option to get a panel with four separate vertical controls instead of the single vertical knob that is standard. That's certainly one way to get around different user preferences.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 08:22:06 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on March 24, 2016, 07:44:22 pmThe smart reader would have guessed Keysight MSO3000X versus Lecroy WS3000!

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 08:28:58 pm
content: QuoteThe numerical keypad on the 54540C and the 'blue shift' measurement features within it are certainly a plus point. But I just can't stop myself from reaching for the horizontal control and the delay control when I want to tinker with channel 2.Maybe I would get used to it in time but I'm not sure I want to try. It's proved a useful scope a few times (and it cost me nothing) but the UI is just too annoying for me...

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 11:18:11 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 24, 2016, 07:57:11 pmYou do love your one sided examples dont you? The automatic calibration is one of the features I really dislike on the higher end Lecroy scopes, but it doesnt appear to be part of the WS3000 series which has a manual calibration function.Lecroy WS3000, manual calibration (without cable harness but having to disconnect all inputs) every month or outside +/-5 degrees since last calibration, option of fast cal of current range or slow cal of all ranges which takes 1-2 hours to complete.Keysight 3000, manual calibration (requiring cable harness) every 2 years or 4000 hours or +/-10 degrees since last calibration, only calibrates everything with no mention of how long it takes.So they have some different requirements, but still achieve very similar levels of accuracy as guaranteed by their specifications (and will usually do much better than the specifications). They are once again comparable, very comparable.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2016, 12:43:46 am
content: Quote from: Someone on March 24, 2016, 11:18:11 pmNot as much as you seem to love embarrassing yourself - and you even did it again!QuoteThen of course you know it can be switched off, right?QuoteIt is, although it only does it once after warming up. The one I had for a day didn't (but that was a very early version with early firmware) but the final version does temperature dependent self-calibration. But hey, don't take it from me, take it from another WS3000 owner - unless of course he's also just mis-stating and exagerating:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lets-talk-about-lecroy-scopes-aka-the-wuerstchenhund-holds-court-thread/msg798526/#msg798526"At least as far as my WaveSurfer 3054 goes, it does actually do auto-cal. Once. Around 30m of being on, it does one very quick self-cal cycle and then comes back."QuoteAgain you're reading stuff you don't understand, like you did pretty much every time you picked such a topic.The DSOX3000's we have at work do a quick calibration after powering on - that is in cold condition. When the scope warm up it doesn't do another calibration, and it does not compensate for the temperature change.The WS3000 does auto-calibrate after it has reached working temperature, not in cold condition. That includes the temperature change. In addition, with newer firmware (don't know which release) it will also re-calibrate if the temperature changes noticeably. Same as the DSOX3k? Yeah, sure.Of course you won't find this in a manual that was written 2014 when the scope came out. Which is why such documents usually have a date printed in them. Something youcouldhave learned after your recent episode about probe compatibility. But not surprisingly, you didn'tThe long calibration you cited does not compensate for temperature drift (it compensates for aging). On neither scope.I do have to say it gets really embarrassing with you, as you have shown again and again that you clearly don't really understand the topics, and your only aim seems to be the intention to provoke. Even worse, you showed that you are not even smart enough to realize that a document written at a certain point can't show changes after that date.But to make that mistake *twice* in very short succession really does require a person of a special kind.Anyways, I won't waste any more time with a troll.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2016, 01:20:08 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 25, 2016, 12:43:46 amAnd then we may not achieve the specifications right?Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 25, 2016, 12:43:46 amThey do mention this in the manual, compare to the Agilent/Keysight which doesn't pause to calibrate after its turned on and tells you the delta temperature of the system from its last calibration so the user can determine if they want to recalibrate.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 25, 2016, 12:43:46 amOnce booted the Agilent/Keysight does not recalibrate, it was calibrated at a specific operating temperature and meets its specifications +/-10 degrees from there, during the warm up period it will be outside the range and possibly inaccurate, it measures this temperature and reports it on the scope so the user can determine when they want to recalibrate or if the scope is warmed up.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 25, 2016, 12:43:46 amSo once again the current Lecroy website is providing out of date and misleading information?Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 25, 2016, 12:43:46 amThere is only one calibration option for the Agilent/Keysight scope, and it calibrates for the current operating temperature +/-10 degrees, its user initiated. I much prefer this way of working rather than having the scope pause and interrupt acquisition, especially since it has a wider operating range which is enough to cover the environments I work in.They have similar accuracy specifications, but the Lecroy relies on more frequent calibration which interrupts acquisition. Its not a positive for the scope! But that's how you present it.