ReflowR on Tindie, any good ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2017, 11:10:38 am
content: As I was looking on Tindie I stumbled on the ReflowRhttps://www.tindie.com/products/LafrasH/modern-electronics-reflowr/Anyone here seen it/used it ?Is it any good (I know you can take a pan and achieve the same) ?

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2017, 11:37:58 am
content: It looks pretty good, and Mick has a review unit so they do existI'm going to see if I can borrow the demo unit from Mick and give it a test on a few sample boards.Unfortunately Lafras has been rather slow at shipping to his Indiegogo backers, and his previous campaign has completely stalled (check the campaign comments/updates)https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/modern-electronics-reflowr-stem-inspiration-kit-technology/It would be rather dissapointing if he is shipping Tindie units before IGG ones. The Tindie listing doesn't have any warning of shipping delays.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2017, 12:01:22 pm
content: Thanks Kean,it would be great to see it work "in real life"

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2017, 12:14:46 pm
content: for the little money they charge for it - why not. Although I would not trust to the temp profiles on the phone - it is a thick Al plate, and the components are on the top... It would not work well for larger boards - they tend to warp a bit, meaning that some parts of the board will not be in contact with the plate.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 03:58:48 pm
content: I finally got a chance to sit down with MickMake and do a quick review/teardown of the ReflowR - so it should be up on his channel in the near futureI've still got it in my lab, so will try use it on some more complex designs as I get some free time

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 06:26:45 pm
content: In case you haven't seen it, here is the review video I did in collaboration with MickMake of an early sample unit

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 01:10:30 pm
content: So, one of my good friends here got the small version and is very satisfied with it. I just ordered the "big" one and payed ekstra for EMS shipping. We will then see once it arrivesI will post here once I have received it and have it running....

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 02:08:49 pm
content: I think the major problem with ReflowR is that it won't work for boards with components on both sides of the board. That is unless you don't mind soldering one side manually.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 02:10:24 pm
content: Absolutely!I tend to only place components on "the other side" that needs to be hand soldered anyway, so in my case I think/hope it will do a good job

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 02:35:41 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on October 31, 2017, 02:10:24 pmMy boards tend to contain 50+ 0402 and 0201 decoupling caps. Good look hand-soldering them

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2017, 11:33:01 am
content: Just a followup,The large ReflowR I ordered arrived yesterday (in perfect order). As some have written it is a little "rough" but I already knew that beforehandAnd to be honest, I don't care as long as it works! And it does!So far I have only tested the two demoboards that are included (and using the included leaded paste) but results were perfect. Next is my own boards and SAC305. I (tried) to check the temperatures on the alu plate, by design the variations will not be large but I did a quick check. Using simple means (8 k type couplers) I measured the temperature on 8 different places, also used my Fluke and its temperature probe. The 8 sensors did show the same temperature within 5 to 7 degrees, it was a bit fiddly as they were only held down with kapton tape...The Fluke measured a temperature that was in the same ballpark as the 8 sensors. When placing the Fluke probe properly on the hotplate and comparing the measurements on that with the ReflowR's measured temperature (using the Android app) the ReflowR showed approx 7 degrees higher temp than the Fluke. This was a crappy measurement, it was just to see if there were any crazy differences.So far, I have only 2 complaints:1) The Android App is indeed "Alpha" as it says, it "works" (kinda) but could REALLY use some TLC!2) The "beeper" inside the ReflowR is wayyy to loud, I will dig into the unit and put something on that to dampen itNext test is cooking some real boards!PS: Sorry for rotated pictures

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 09:08:47 am
content: @cgroen I would love to see a photo of inside the large ReflowR if you don't mind removing the top plate?I've done a few boards now on the smaller ReflowR that I borrowed from MickMake and it hasn't been consistent in fully reflowing the boards fully, even with the higher profiles and the clamps holding the board flat against the plate.I agree that the Android app is pretty rough, and is also awful to use on a smaller (4in) Android device. I should have a 7in Android tablet somewhere here in the workshop, but I can't locate it since moving 6 months ago.A lot of my boards are a double sided load, or in panels too big for the small ReflowR. So I am concentrating on fixing up a T-962A, at least until I can afford a benchtop vapour phase reflow unit.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 10:35:37 am
content: QuoteHave only used 0201, once. But 0402, no problem. 0201 were mostly annoying because vacuum pickup/placing is more fiddly when the needle is bigger than the part.Hand soldering is much easier than paste and hand-place. I don't get it why people use solder paste for protos. Short of using a PNP machine for bulk assembly, paste and reflow seems like a waste of time, to me. Tried it. Stopped doing it.Paste/reflow1. stencil paste the board ; this part is tedious and requires setup and cleaning and more cleaning.2. carefully place the components in alignment over the pads ; this part is tedious and lots of potential places to screwup the paste. It is also quite impossible to efficiently do this under the microscope, because there's no place to put the parts where you can see them AND the board at the same time.3. reflow... easy4. inspect and fix tombstones and bridges.Hand-solder1. flux the board. In high density areas of pads, just squirt a big pool and spread it around. Dot the other pads. Actually this takes less time than pasting a board.2. place components, loosely over fluxed pads ; if you mess up and touch part of the board, just put the component back. This is way faster and less tedious than placing components over pasted pads. The alignment doesn't even matter. Just get it in the right area.3. align and solder the parts, one after another under microscope. This is actually the easiest part and it is extremely fast, with the right tools and technique. Aligning is super easy when you can push the parts around on the board with tweezers with no paste to possibly smear. You don't have to look away from the microscope to pick up the next part, because it's already on the board, waiting.4. There is no 4. The inspection is already finished. You saw each joint when doing step 3.And yeah, I understand some IC can't be hand soldered. And if you are doing multilayer board, you can't necessarily just hot air it without a board preheater, which defeats the purpose. And super tight pitch boards can be difficult to hand solder, for sure. But methinks the guys buying Reflow R or solder paste dispenser gadgets are not buying them to assemble these kinds of boards.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 01:15:12 pm
content: I bought the ReflowR for assembling 10..20 boards at a time. I have hand soldered countless number of boards during my more than 35 years in electronics, so I know how to dragsolder etc etc. It is true that it is easy to handsolder a lot of the stuff, but doing 20 boards at a time hurts my back. Its easier to do the placement and then put it on the reflower. Next step for me is to get a P&P machine of some kind, but until then, hand placing it is(And I do handsolder BGA, QFP, QFN, 0201, using IR preheat and hotair)

author: khs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 01:21:13 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 18, 2017, 10:35:37 amIt depends on the available tools, the size of the boards - and the number of parts to place.For small pcb's and a good stencil printer it takes about fife minutes to place the solder paste on the board including setup time. And with free stencils, there are no additional costs.With the right software link from the pcb software to the PNP machine programming takes no more than fife minutes. (If there are some single parts not mounted in feeders I place it by hand.)The advantage of using the PNP machine is there is no need to care about the parts it's position and rotation. This makes life a lot easier. And you can be sure the next prototype is the same as the first.From my experiences placing the parts on a solder paste is a lot faster than hand soldering, because placing is one step but soldering is aligning, soldering one end and soldering the other end. So there are thee steps compared to one. And under a microscope soldering is more difficult than just placing.As you mentioned, care must be taken not to move away the placed parts. This happens some time, but in worst case it can be soldered by hand after reflow soldering.An advantage of hand soldering it is a lot easier to remove the flux.And in some rare cases I use hand soldering to populate prototypes unit by unit to check it works fine before I place the next unit. Sometime this can save a lot of money and time.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 02:53:29 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 18, 2017, 10:35:37 amI cannot really place 0402 (or even 0603) without smashing the paste all around. Neither can I solder them manually quickly enough.So, I use an intermediary method for my prototyping boards. I put flux on the board, then I put solder on the pads with a soldering iron. Just dragging the soldering iron horizontally over the pads seems to deposit just the right amount (except for central QFN pads where I cover only the center of the pad). Then I flux again and place components. It's very easy to do because there's no paste and you can easily nudge them into the position with a stick. And the tacky flux keeps them in place. Then I reflow. I may get some thumbstoning on 0402, but never on 0603 and bigger.This works fine for nearly everything, except for BGA. BGAs I just flux, place and reflow. Also, I often solder TQFPs manually later on.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 06:29:21 pm
content: QuoteAha. So Northguy. BTW, I agree with 99% of everything you ever post concerning just about anything. Total respect. And a question.Have you ever tried this:Flux the pads. Then just drop the 0402 parts on there without caring about rotation. Keep going until you have dropped on all your 0402's that are say, left-right. Just make sure they stick to the flux somewhere over/near the pads. (The only reason you are pre-placing them at all is so you don't have to switch back and forth between pickup tool and tweezers, and you don't have to switch between microscope and naked eye, and you don't have to have long pause between making joints to allow the tinned tip to oxidize; it has nothing to do with accuracy/alignment; These inefficient maneuvers are a big part of why soldering can be so much less efficient than paste and place, but we don't have to do it that way). Now after you get them all "placed," you put down the pickup tool. You pickup the tweezers in your left hand. You pickup your iron in the right hand. Knife tip preferred for me. Loaded with solder.Now you look under the microscope, and you align the part with the tweezers in your left hand while you tack it with the preloaded knife tip. Alignment is done, and the part ain't moving. Usually for resistors, if there's enough room, I can easily do both sides with a knife tip. (I have sanded away a tiny bit of the chrome on the back of the point, to aid in this maneuver). But oftentimes, due to pad size or other pads/parts, it is difficult. If the latter, just tack one end and move on. Keep going until you run out of solder, then pick up a new blob. (Knife tip can hold enough solder to do a lot of SMD resistors, prolly 6-30 joints without getting out of control, depending on pad size and PCB finish). All this time, you are not putting down the tweezers, ever. You are not letting go the iron, ever. You are just once in a while having to look away to pick up more solder. After done, flip the board and touch the iron to the other end of the parts. IOW, why pretin the pads when that could have been you making the joints? This way, the first time you ever make any attempt to align a part is definitely the last. There is no way the part will stick to the tweeers/stick when you withdraw it. There's no way you'll put your hand on it and smoosh things. There's no need to put it in the oven, after. There's no inspection, later.We gots two hands, and using only 1 of them to play Jenga/Operation, and having to do it under mag lamp (or having to look in/out of the microscope to pickup every single part) is very weird to me. I still don't get it, and I have tried. I have bought an oven and done dozens of boards with stencil and hand placing, because it is so popular. And there is a definite advantage on the passives, in particular. But the time saved is more eye strain, cuz it's way more efficient to do it with naked eye. And wherever I (and some folks surely have better eyes and hands) need the microscope, which is fine pitch IC's, mainly, it don't work so hot. And with larger board/panel size, you don't need a manual PnP or to fiddle with a handrest. You just flux and drop the parts in area you can work on without accidentally pasting your palms. And after soldering them, you do the next stage.And yeah, I do 0402. Did something like a hundred of them this past week.QuoteWith a PnP, now we're talking. I think this is going to be better suited to batch production, though. Or does this include loading all the parts? Damn nice to have one of these things, I'm sure.I'm definitely open to trying, again, but I wonder if it's really worth it. Maybe someone who traditionally stencil pastes and hand places parts, and who has a microscope, can try it "my way." I am sure I am not the only person to ever think of this. I'm not advocating people don't do paste/reflow. I'm trying to figure out why my $200.00 reflow oven is in storage.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 07:20:12 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 18, 2017, 06:29:21 pmI wouldn't call it tinning. I deposit substantial amounts of solder, so that it looks like a nice little shallow hill over the pad - just enough for reflow. It doesn't take much time. I can do 10 square inch board in a minute or two. It is actually easier and faster than applying the paste through the stencil. Placing takes some time, but you have to do it anyway. Trip to the oven doesn't take any effort.I did try doing this manually similar to what you describe. Except I didn't try pre-placing. I used to place one and then solder. Then place another one. If everything went well it was Ok. But if it didn't, it might have been several minutes per part, especially 0402 (never tried 0201). For me, it is whole lot easier and faster to spread the solder out rather than soldering individual parts. Of course, it is all personal. I found what works best for me. Perhaps, as time goes by, I find something even better.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 07:33:48 pm
content: Thanks for the reply. I actually edited my post while you were replying, and it addresses some of your issues. So to quote and bold my own post:QuoteYou don't pickup/putdown the soldering iron or tweezers. Once you get settled in, get your hand placement down, get your tip angle right, it's just a matter of moving the board to the next part, and the joint is there just as soon as you can align the part. You don't look away from the microscope. The only thing you have to learn is how to preload a soldering iron and paint the solder on. Some specific tips are way better for this than traditional conical based chisel tips and the like.And sorry to the OP for the sidetrack!

author: khs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 08:23:34 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 18, 2017, 06:29:21 pmIn my PNP there are about 45 (I call it fixed) feeders with often used parts mounted, by example 0.1µ or 22p and some standard resistors and about 5 'free' feeders.Because I use my PNP for my prototyping/production only, I can decide wich parts I use. So when I design a new product I try to use parts mounted in the feeders. So most of the parts are permanent mounted in the feeders.In some cases I need more of some parts not mounted in the feeders. For these parts I use 'free' feeders, so the work to prepare the PNP is reduced to mount one or two feeders with other parts.This adds about 5 minutes. Additional there is the need to mount the pcb into the PNP. I've defined a standard mounting position, and (if possible a reference mounting hole), so in most cases the additional work is not much.The biggest advantage of a PNP is there is no need to care about where to place the parts. This saves a lot of energy.I try to avoid placing the parts by hand. In many cases the tiny parts must be rotated from the top to the bottom. This takes a lot of time and in the worst case the part jumps away.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 08:38:31 pm
content: Yeah, I like your description. I also use a lot of the same parts, and 45 feeders would probably cover almost all I would ever need. From the description it sounds like it would take up a big portion of my area, but 30 minutes with the garbage can would fix that, I'm sure, lol. I have a 6x2 foot table I could clear.QuoteSOT parts are one of the worst at this, to me. The plastic tape will make em jump and twist and even lodge inside the tape.I have posted this a couple times. Maybe you have seen it?

author: khs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 10:21:54 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 18, 2017, 08:38:31 pmIt's a nice video and I can imagine some things, but for better understanding some explanation would be helpful (for me).Quote from: KL27x on November 18, 2017, 08:38:31 pmMy PNP is 1,4 m x 1,2 m x 1,1 m.It was not very expensive because in most cases it is (or it looks) impossible to move it through a normal door.It WAS possible, but it was really a lot of work. But now I know how my PNP looks inside.For me there was the urgent need to get a PNP, because one of my customers ramped up his orders and made pressure to reduce the price...For making prototypes and make development only a PNP is nice, but I think in most cases the time to develop and find the bugs is long compared to the time to solder the prototype..

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2017, 07:23:41 am
content: Did some more testing. This time I used lead-based just to try it out. I used "program 5" on the ReflowR (used "Program 6" for SAC305 lead-free).The results are very good! I took some pictures during the process, first a picture of the board and then a picture of the temperature profile from the Android App. Around 180 degC the solder started to flow. I just mounted some dummy resistors (0603) on various positions and they all were soldered perfectly. Using SAC305 I soldered also resistors, SOT23 and the large 144 QFP (0.5mm) with perfect results.I think this will work ok for my needs at the moment, I can certainly mount components way faster than by handsoldering (solder on one pad on the PCB, hold the component with tweezers while heating the solder, apply solder to the other end of the component etc). I also have a "china oven", that one never seemed to work just right, uneven temperatures, scorched boards etc were the usual results. The ReflowR seems to give (at least me) more consistent results, and it is nice/cool to be able to see whats going on while the process is running.I will shot some internal pictures once we get some decent daylight here.PS: None of the components were touched during the process, surface tension brought them all into perfect alignment.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2017, 12:31:21 pm
content: As requested, pictures of the internalsAnd regarding the beeper, I can't get to that, it sits on the bottom of the PCB and that would mean taking out the rivets (for now I wont bother with it...)

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2017, 02:22:45 pm
content: @cgroen Thanks for those photos. Very helpful!All that space and he still uses that ridiculously cramped PCB. That plus the poor quality app has put me off purchasing, for now at least.It does have some benefits over the electric frypan I use (especially assisted cooling),.I also have a lot of problem with my Chinese T962A reflow oven even after many hours of mods, firmware upgrades, "calibration" attempts, and profile adjustment.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2017, 03:37:59 pm
content: Kean,I asked Henning about the API/Protocol for the oven, he mentioned that once he has it documented and the App is updated, he will make it public. Personally I would love to have/make a PC application for the oven, I would rather NOT have that running on the phone but instead on my shop-pc. It would be nice to have both options.Apart from the PCB and the "alfa" App, the oven works really well, I'm impressed with the uniformity of the temperature. Tomorrow I will make the first small run of boards on it.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 08:22:38 am
content: do anyone know what kind of heating element that this unit uses?, or other small flat/square heating elements around this size?

author: ANTALIFE
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 10:28:25 pm
content: Quote from: neslekkim on October 26, 2018, 08:22:38 amMine broke the other month, took it apart and it looked like a mica heating element (some wire wrapped around a sheet of mica). Lafras said he will send a replacement but that was ages ago. Have kinda given up hope and started using a modded heating-platform (https://www.antalife.com/2018/10/project-hot-plate-mod.html)

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 06:40:32 am
content: ah, cool, I suspect the reflowr is kinda dead issue, nice to see that there are alterntives.Are you happy with the new one?

author: ANTALIFE
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2018, 10:45:21 pm
content: Quote from: neslekkim on November 01, 2018, 06:40:32 amSorry for late reply, so far the initial tests seem promising. The big downside is that the heating-platform has a big thermal mass, meaning it takes a some time to heatup and cool down so you can't straight up copy the standard JEDEC profile. My workaround is to have the PCB sitting on a baking tray which I then remove to rapidly cool the board (or so the theory goes)

author: nardev
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2018, 11:40:49 am
content: Just got mine after 2 months wait. Actually it looks like the first one was lost and than the guy sent another one via DHL, which arrived from Sout Africa to Bosnia in 46 hours.I just did 3-4 reflows until now, looks fine, even doing multiple boards, covering most of the area. I used regular program.. Yes, the temperature seems to be bit unstable, but thankfully i don't need any more sensitive and stable than this.p.s. i didn't have stencil for this one so there is too much paste on the board.

author: extek
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 08:41:59 pm
content: Yeah, it's OK, with a caveat.I have the small one and decided I wanted the larger one, emailed Lafras for confirmation of the model I was wanted (had an extra thermistor input or something) and I ordered it directly from his site. He never shipped it and wouldn't reply to emails after that.Caveat emptor.

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2020, 09:30:57 am
content: Quote from: extek on July 25, 2020, 08:41:59 pmYou paid him for it and he never shipped it? And never replied to you? Wow.SeonUnexpected Maker

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2020, 10:09:28 am
content: Yep, I guess he found he could get away with it on Indiegogo so then decided to do that with Tindie and direct sales too. At least Tindie seems to have shut down his store.Check out his original IGG campaign before the ReflowR - he never delivered anything at all on that, with many pledges of US$1000 or morehttps://www.indiegogo.com/projects/go-from-3d-printing-to-desktop-injection-moulding/

author: nardev
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2020, 11:11:56 am
content: Sorry i didn't reply before on this one.After about 40-50 uses, the heating element failed.The seller at first offeredto replace/fix it but the cost and time for shipping was about 2 months. And there was no point doing that. The seller promissed to give the detailed instructions once i get the wire for the heating element. But, despite several emails, several messages at tindie by me and the support people over there, the guy is simply ignoring me.I changed the wire and positioned it at the same place, it was of the same resistance that he suggested and the same quality but it failed again.He is there just to sell you the device and forget about everything else.It's good just "to test", not to be used again and again!!! And also, stay away from that guy! I can show you our conversation if you are interested.Guy turned to be completely ignorant once i deleted the review and once the paypal protection have passedAnd the Lafras Henning is definitely not thrust wordy guy once he gets paid and once you remove the bad comments from his selling shop.p.s. i was waiting for the reflowr more than 2 months and it was obviously lost somewhere. He was pushing me almost to give up and forget about it. Than, as it was still within paypal protection period, i opened the claim and he sent it via DHL for sellers (same price as EMS) and i got it within 36 hours.