Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 09:12:38 am
content: Got a new 3kW aircon installed and was surprised to find it just spliced into the existing 20A power point wiring. I didn't think that was legal?But seems to only take 0.8kW because of the high COP, so maybe legal?Anyone know the electrical code for sure?Three existing aircons are installed on two different dedicated fuses in the breaker box.Just a lazy arse installer?Just measured the consumption on the highest cooling setting and it takes about 650W to 1kW all up. So I don't think it's technically an issue, just that I didn't think it was legal to hard dire such a thing into a power point wiring?Also, this bypasses by dedicated aircon power monitoring line on my Solar Analytics system.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 09:19:44 am
content: It certainly doesn't look 'kosher'. I don't think there's any '1st world' jurisdiction where stripping the cable jacket back to outside the junction box would meet code.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 09:32:25 am
content: Consumption just over 1.1kW on full cooling

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 09:36:21 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on December 04, 2020, 09:19:44 amWell that's the thing. I'd like to be sure from a local sparky that it doesn't meet code before I complain.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 09:37:55 am
content: Just quickly, wires should be fixed, ie clipped.Junction boxed should be fixed. Single insulated wires should we protected by sheath or conduit.Should have an isolator.Aircons (generally) aren't ticketed to do household power.The idea is that the fridge mechanic is permitted to service the machine, within the confines of the machine and that's why such plants should have a nearby and compliant isolator switch.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 09:41:15 am
content: Its not a local 'sparkie' you should be talking to as there are far too many who barely passed training and have forgotten much of what they learnt so are basically doing installation work by rote with no real understanding of the code requirements. You need the opinion of a government 'sparkie' in the code enforcement department.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 09:44:57 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on December 04, 2020, 09:41:15 amYeah, but it would be good to know off the bat if "hell no, that's not up to code" from a local sparky who knows the local regulations.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 09:54:25 am
content: I think Ed's clued you in to the main points. Unfortunatelyyour electrical codeis behind a paywall, so unless you can get it from a library, or find a bootleg copy to check against Ed's points, there's little further you can do without the opinion of an official inspector.However you could get some more opinions from a specialist forum, e.g.https://www.electriciansforums.net/forums/australian-electrician-advice-forum.171/

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 09:57:25 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on December 04, 2020, 09:54:25 amSomeone by the name of BigDave asked the same question!https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/does-air-con-units-need-a-dedicated-supply-in-nsw.191157/Wasn't me I swear!

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 10:03:12 am
content: So post your photos to a new topic there, and when they are horrified, find a code enforcement contact to email them to. I suspect you are going to need to stop payment and contact your lawyer . . .

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 10:12:45 am
content: Hi Dave. The 'AS3000' Standards apply Australia wide, not just for N.S.W. It used to be hard to find, but there's a .PDF now...https://www.fpvprobuilds.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/AS3000-2018-Clean-Purple-cover.pdfThe normal power cables in homes is 2.5-Sqmm, which can handle about 23-25 Amps, depending on the circumstances.They SHOULD, however, have installed another breaker/feed, but tapping in to existing cables IS legal, and typical.HOWEVER, the single-insulation wires exposed from the junction-box IS illegal.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 10:26:20 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on December 04, 2020, 10:03:12 amHave posted.https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/is-this-aircon-wiring-install-legal.191943/Lawyer? Are you serious? Why? So I can pay them hundreds of bucks to send a nasty letter

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 10:57:11 am
content: What used to be waved away as inaccessible areas changed, so that visible single insulation is not kosher. The aircon needs some sort of isolation method local to the plant, supplied by a power point is ok but otherwise needs a proper lockable isolation switch.If you paid for an install then they're on the hook to get it up to standard. Ask them nicely, then go through fair trading if that fails.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 11:26:19 am
content: Quote from: Someone on December 04, 2020, 10:57:11 amYou are right, but your line above reminded me of a few things!!Yea, ceilings are absolutely considered as 'accessible', for multiple trades, including the home-owners themselves.But the laws are funny!! I used to also be responsible for fire-systems in multi-story buildings. They (authorities here), stipulate the'legal' height of a building as from the 'Floor-Level' of the Top-Most-Occupied-Floor, to the lowest point of egress. This means thatPlant-Rooms above, (and lift motor-rooms) did not count, because... "Anyone up there have technical knowledge regarding safety,as well as better knowledge than the general public regarding emergency exits etc.". Basically, it is a 'cop-out' rule for buildingowners, otherwise virtually every multi-story building owner here would be in the shit!

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2020, 12:49:14 am
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on December 04, 2020, 11:26:19 amI'm not convinced the current rules make the demarkation between accessible and non-accessible areas clear enough, when I'm working I don't want to measure the crawl space heights to determine if the installation is touch safe at that point (when blindly reaching around for instance). Trying to protect all the other possible users of a space on the assumption they will do specific things (which may not be obvious to them) is a bit silly. Homeowners happily do plastering work which can expose "inaccessible" areas and they themselves are unlikely to enforce the 50mm clearance restrictions intended to save them.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2020, 05:47:13 am
content: Surely that junction box isn't legal like that? Here that would be an immediate inspection failure to have exposed inner wires outside of the box, the clamp must be fully on the sheath.

author: Inflex
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2020, 06:51:15 am
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on December 04, 2020, 10:12:45 amLooks like some good reading, Dean Koontz is going back on the shelf. Out of curiosity, is there a consolidated/abridged "household wiring" version ?

author: jh15
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2020, 08:10:19 am
content: No strain relief clamps on sheath? looks like a radio shack box. 'Strailia laws must be lax. Go to library before they are outlawed for sharing books.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2020, 09:22:07 am
content: also do they have the correct cable gland, that looks like a romex, I hope its not going into a circular gland? You need a romex gland for it.rush job

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2020, 10:37:12 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on December 05, 2020, 09:22:07 amIt's a well established part of Sydney consumer culture here for home owners to wait until December to realize the house is too hot and start looking for the cheapest price to install an aircon.Then they get on the internet and start bitching after it all goes pear-shaped.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2020, 12:28:04 pm
content: That clusterfuk of an installation would be out of code in most national or state jurisdictions. I suspect the 'spur' cable is out of rating for that 20A circuit? And with exposed inners, the junction is no longer double insulated. I assume the screws in the box are tightened?Not a certified Aussie sparks, but I might expect your AC had an independent circuit starting with an RCBO at the main board?Back in the day, that box would have a big red DEFECT sticker on, put there by an angry inspector who learned his trade over 30 years. Not a two week course that covers why you should not really strip live cables with your teeth. Think yourself lucky the drongo didn't tag off the lighting circuit.A rush job should still be a propper job. FAIL

author: Messtechniker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2020, 02:09:49 pm
content: What a terrible job.I also don't like the wood material this contraptionis resting on. It's a fire hazard should this be apermanent installation.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2020, 02:10:31 pm
content: Check the label closely. It is rated 3kW because it is pumping this amount of heat out of the heat exchanger (into ambient air). Electrically it is rated at 9 Amps.Would not worry.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2020, 03:47:03 pm
content: IMO that junction box looks dodgy as.

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 05, 2020, 06:30:24 pm
content: Hi All , DaveI think you should find that Mitsubishi supplied a recommended installation leaflet with your AC.Any AC split unit requires that it can be Isolated for service.Wiring it direct to the Mains without using ether via Plug to socket .Must have an Isolation switch breaker . This is recommended as standard for all AC units.If its Hard wired and have a fault requiring a service from Mitsubishi under warrantee .The service tech will not work on it and your warrantee will be null & void.I am now retired but I still hold a Full HVAC Licence upto 800hp .I would get that cowboy that did that work or Company demand that they sendA certified Engineer / electrician back and ask to see his licence .Edit : it's also good practice that every AC has its own fuse .

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2020, 08:24:23 pm
content: Quote from: SparkyFX on December 05, 2020, 02:10:31 pmThat probably makes more sense than the units we use here, our refrigeration is still rated in tons, which was the amount of ice it could produce in some unit of time. It's around 12,000 btu per ton IIRC.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2020, 11:38:13 pm
content: Don't bother with a sparky. Get a copy of AS3000 and you will have the answer in there. Numbskulls in the Australian government hosted a copy of the standard a couple of years ago online, available for free to every man and his dog.

author: WattsThat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 03:08:33 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 05, 2020, 08:24:23 pmYes, it is 12K BTU’s but the unit of one ton of refrigeration is the energy required to melt 2000 pounds of ice at 0C in 24 hours. It came about when replacing natural ice for cooling with mechanical refrigeration. Just another one of those arcane US units that we cannot rid ourself of.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 04:02:26 am
content: We had two 4.3kW systems installed many years ago and each had its own circuit with CB at the fuse box and a isolation switch at the outdoor compressor unit.(QLD but the standards are national I think)

author: Vovk_Z
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 05:01:25 am
content: I think single isolation wires are not a large problem. Dave can isolate them with an isolating tape, for example, to feel safer.The main concern for me is how safe the electrical connection is made. The main rules are about that (because of fire hazard).If there isn't a dedicated electrical design project for this wiring then we can't complain about the absence of an individual circuit breaker for each aircon.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 05:06:36 am
content: Regional rules not withstanding (and I'm 100% positive that's not compliant anyway), that's a complete clusterfuck of a hackjob. Have a proper electrician deal with it, get your money back from the people who fitted it, and never use them again.Quote from: Vovk_Z on December 06, 2020, 05:01:25 amThat is not an acceptable solution for crappy workmanship.QuoteSure you can. This is a fixed, dedicated load and most sensible regulations require such to have dedicated circuits. It is, however, a fairly small load in this case.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 06:03:40 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 04, 2020, 09:44:57 amI am not such, however, I now have a copy of AS3000. It's.. very familiar looking.There does not seem to be a regulation prohibiting connecting an AC unit to an existing socket circuit at this power level, but I am only skimming and lightly searching, it's 600 pages.However, just from one photo it blatently breaches multiple regulations. Let's pick a couple quick ones.QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 06:43:40 am
content: Electrical safety standards have the same basics as far as junction boxes- screwed down, cable staples, strain reliefs, sufficient room for connections etc. Things fail from a bad connection heating up and melting plastic and touching combustibles.For A/C there is a huge inrush from compressor+contactor combo's so I have seen special regulations calling for a dedicated branch circuit. But this A/C has a VFD so it wouldn't have high inrush.This Wikipedia pic made me happier

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 07:15:25 am
content: Another shot. Didn't bother to open it.Have sent a formal complaint and request for it to be fixed.There were three issues:1) The wiring2) The shared power point circuit and no way to isolate it without taking out half our house.3) Bypassing of the obvious Solar Analytics system which has a dedicated aircon power monitoring circuit.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 09:05:35 am
content: https://www.facebook.com/5hittyElectrical/

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 09:36:48 am
content: the thread should be modified to NSFW

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 09:39:04 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 06, 2020, 05:06:36 amWot he said, it's a shoddy job and needs to be re-done properly.Wouldn't have much if any confidence the rest of the install was done properly either.

author: deadlylover
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 10:35:58 am
content: I had a 3.5kw unit installed for the garage a few years back and they used the power from the power point. I was curious as well back then and IIRC you had to have an isolator switch (AS/NZS 3000:2007 Clause 4.19).Attached a pic of my install. (I think it was AUD1350 installed for the Daikin Cora 3.5kw, back to back)

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 12:26:54 pm
content: That is the correct way .As per HVAC code of practice.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 12:54:22 pm
content: Quote from: deadlylover on December 06, 2020, 10:35:58 amThanks.No isolator switch on mine. Only way to isolate is the 20A breaker for the power points which also takes out half of my house.

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 01:01:00 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 06, 2020, 07:15:25 amDave I would also have the pipe work checked as well . If his wiring is that bad he is not a certified engineer .and the chances are that he has put kinks in the pipe work as well . The New gas have high flow rates compared to the old R22and run @ higher pressures so any kinks in the pipe work will cause oil slugging at start and shorten the life of the compressor not to mentionan efficacy loss . There are many thing that these Cowboy are not aware of including the positioning of the out side unit .Ie The Radiator (condenser ) Back of the unit MUST be a minimum of 30cm away from a wall . or if free stand Not facing south .all these are important if you want your AC to work at its MAX rating.The other very important thing . Did he purge the pipes of air . If this was not done Demand a replacement Unit . Or a full Vacuum of the system.Just a few percent of air will cause the oil to turn green . and the compressor will run hot and die within a very short life time .Update Edit :: You should have a seperate Fuse rated @ 7 x the normal operating current to allow for the Start current 15 to 20A MAX should be good for you .Don't use the fast trip fuses as they will flip on a hot day full load start . But on the other hand its better the AC fuse drops just one fuse and not the whole houseIt has a LRA (Lock rotor Amps ) of 39ARNS Certified HVAC Engineer & Tech designer ( London Uni, USA Cert . Carrier Cert. .Copland Cert .))

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 02:11:41 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on December 06, 2020, 01:01:00 pm3.9A. Being inverter run a 16A circuit is likely specified.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 02:13:25 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 06, 2020, 12:54:22 pmQuote

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 02:34:06 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on December 06, 2020, 01:01:00 pmOne of the great things about these inverter-run split systems is that they don't have any of those requirements. The LRA is only listed out of tradition, there is no actual LRA for a unit like this. It will never draw more than the 3.9A except maybe a small inrush when first connected.

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 02:39:59 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 06, 2020, 02:11:41 pmInverters don't need the same rating Fuses as they have a build in soft start . The motor runs almost all the time but runs very slowly and have an unloadingValve so in the off cycle the compressor can still be operating unloaded so the current will be very low . Different makes and models do vary slightly .Where as Dave's compress is a rotary vein and is not an inverter model .QuoteNot entirely true When an inverter motor goes bad It will take out the board as well, & visa versa if the inverter board fails which they do quite frequently after about3 to 4 years can burn out the compressor . Inverter motors Have a very nice LRA's and very destructive Pro's & Cons

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 03:05:15 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on December 06, 2020, 02:39:59 pmIt is an inverter model. I won't claim all split-systems are, but every one I've seen new in the last decade or so has been.https://www.airconditionerland.com.au/products/mitsubishi-heavy-industry-avanti-c3-5kw-h3-7kw-reverse-cycle-split-system#feature

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 03:18:51 pm
content: Quotewhich would also require the cable to be uprated,under the uk regs that would require a motor circuit pulling 5A needing to be protected at 35A,and instead of 1mm cable more like 4 or 6mm,a substantial increase in material costs.much simpler to use a slower fuse type designed for motor circuits.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 03:57:24 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 06, 2020, 03:18:51 pmHe may be referencing their equivalent of a C curve MCB, which would be reasonable for a traditional hard-starting compressor of moderate size.

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 04:08:27 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 06, 2020, 03:05:15 pmThat link is also showing its Not an inverter the AC's further down are the Panasonic .I also checked The Mitsubishi service manual on this Model Number its a Rotary Vein as I said .Look at the Plate .below of Dave's Unit . He has the top Number which is non inverter .The VHI is the inverter Model .Dave plate shows this SRK35ZSA-W .51 years in Service building & HVAC I think I know how to read an AC serial Plate . Thank you.

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 04:18:14 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 06, 2020, 03:18:51 pmFor the UK you require 2.5mm cable For a standard AC the cable rating is for Max Load Amps The Surgecurrent at Start is only for 1 second .So on a UK Ring mains which is 2.5mm in a loop will be equal to 4mm assuming middle of loop (ring)Small AC could be plugged direct to socket as UK plugs have internal fuse .13A .

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 04:34:10 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on December 06, 2020, 04:08:27 pmThe link given states "Inverter Split System", and nowhere does it say "not an inverter"..The SRK is the indoor unit, the SRC is the outdoor. The FDTC35VH1mentioned on the outdoor unit is a ceiling cassette indoor unit, and has nothing to do with the compressor drive. I may not be an HVAC tech, but I can read that much. Perhaps you could provide the technical manual for the SRC35ZSA-W to properly disprove the marketing - the SRC35ZS-W1 I have, and is definitely an inverter drive..Quote from: Labrat101 on December 06, 2020, 04:18:14 pmThe cable rating must meet or exceed the continuous capacity of the protective device. A ring final is also certainly not equal to 4mm² - not only is the copper effectively 5mm², the surface area is also significantlygreaterthan a single 6mm²..

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 04:38:38 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on December 06, 2020, 04:08:27 pmI don't know what to say to that. You might want to take a second look.Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Avanti C3.5kW H3.7kW Reverse CycleInverterSplit System SRK35ZSA-W-SetAlso, when the FLA and LRA are the same, that's a dead giveaway that it is an inverter system. I don't know what rotary vane has to do with it--that's the compressor head, not the motor type.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 04:55:15 pm
content: Quoteno its not,the cable size is determined by the size of the protective device protecting it,the size of the protective device is determined by design current,or in regs speakIz=>In=>IbwereIb = Design currentIn = Nominal current rating of the protection deviceIz = current rating of cablefor a 5A motor circuit protected by a 6A BS88 device the cable only needs to handle 6A,well within the capacity of 1mm

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 05:08:11 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 06, 2020, 04:55:15 pmSorry Yes your correct ,I was thinking of something else . I Left the UK 32years ago . Xpat . They changeda lot of the Laws & Reg's because of the EU crap that your still trying to brake free of .Good luck and Keep well .

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 05:22:48 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 06, 2020, 04:38:38 pmWhere on This plate does it say Inverter.This is Dave's photo . Lets ask Dave Does it say Inverter any where on his AC . ?Dave please take a photo of the outside unit . or tell us what you have your plate says Standard ?And even if it is an Inverter that would only mean that he can put a lighter fuse . but still needs an isolator switch.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 05:29:42 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on December 06, 2020, 05:22:48 pmWhy would it say 'inverter' on theinsideunit?I didn't say that the word 'inverter' was on any of the placards. Is it required to be? What I did say is that the compressor unit is in fact an inverter-drive model and I'm not at all sure why you are convinced it isn't.

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 05:35:01 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 06, 2020, 05:29:42 pmThis from your Link Why would it say 'inverter' on the maybe some typed after ,this is from the page your link goes to were is the RED Inverter or the word

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 08:14:08 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on December 06, 2020, 05:35:01 pmSee attached screenshot of the site he linked..Again, please show the diagram in the technical manual showing that the SRC35ZSA-W unit does not have an inverter drive.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 09:18:47 pm
content: regulation aside, its a dumbass decision. As far as homes go an air conditioner is likely a1) hard to service device, moreso then a oven. You can't pull it out of the cubby hole its in and unplug it2) takes a while to get people to service it. A realistic house might require gardeners to cut their way into the overgrown HVAC and then a HVAC tech to say its fucked AFTER a deep all day clean then depending on your choice in system a shipping delay then an installation delay. (I am imagining full service in the worst case).so it should be on its own breaker. I would do it that way.The water pump is on a separate isolator because its a 4 day affair to change it if you got the money (well pump)The stove is on a somewhat shared circuit because at most you blow the breaker and unplug it from the wall. This means 5 minutes on reduced lighting in a room with ~4 windows. But that light is like a work light when you are doing precise cutting and stuff in the kitchen (non chill).I don't know why people are looking at regulation rather then the fact its not practical. They should make it practical for a home owner in case of contingencies.I look at up time and safety. You cannot have lights going out and you don't want to tempt people to cook food improperly.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 09:24:22 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on December 06, 2020, 09:18:47 pmI looked at both. Not to mention the quality of the work.The practicality is in fact a regulation (see my post on that..), but Dave wanted actual regulations to throw at them as opposed to an untrained customer saying "that's not how I think it should be".

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 09:36:08 pm
content: @Monkeh - in those standards you have there, what does it say about unfused spurs that do not terminate in a fused connection? It seems Dave's HVAC is 'hardwired' to a spur off the 20A line?Uk-wise, this practice would make me nervous as the spur might not have sufficient rating to survive a short at the HVAC unit end; not without excessive heating. Remembering a cable is down rated when stowed behind insulation.Would have made more sense to have looped out the 20A line down and back to the HVAC unit, maintaining the rating and integrity of the 20A line - which I'm assuming is a ring? But that would have required two wires and two junction boxes.Just a thought, do Aussies have fused plugs like us Brits? They certainly have our 'empire' red and black cable color codes.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 09:38:36 pm
content: Quote from: Syntax Error on December 06, 2020, 09:36:08 pmIt's not a ring, so there is no such thing as a spur. It's a radial branch and that in itself is (probably, I don't see why they'd change that) totally fine.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 09:43:21 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 06, 2020, 09:24:22 pmYou didn't look carefully. Your partial quote of the standards is misleading/deceptive, a power point is an acceptable isolation method both practically and by the standards.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 09:49:46 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 06, 2020, 09:24:22 pmIt's sad that the negotiations turned into gunpoint threats so quickly. Some times 'common guys...' is enough.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 09:52:21 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on December 06, 2020, 09:43:21 pmI have read quite carefully, I suggest you have another go:QuoteQuote from: EEVblog on December 06, 2020, 12:54:22 pmAlso, the regulation I was referring to when you quoted was:QuoteWhich I did not quote partially or misleadingly. Subject to the other loads and usage of the 20A circuit, its use may be allowable with the required isolator. Without said isolator (which is not present and explicitly required), the abuse of that circuit is very likely in breach of 1.6.5 (which is a somewhat subjective regulation, along with 3.9.1, which I quite like, and yes, this installation is in violation of..).

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 10:30:14 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 06, 2020, 08:14:08 pmPlease look at this pagehttps://mhiaa.com.au/?s=SRK35ZSA-WIt shows 2 pictures of Avanti: SRK35ZSA-W and DXK12ZSA-WAVANTI series but there is a difference! Look at view product.they are not the same . and 1 cost more than the other . Yes they are both 3.5kw .The plate on Dave's outside unit clearly states its a SRK35ZSA-W & not DXK12ZSA-WIf you require the Service Manual from Mitsubishi you can just login by yourself .Have Fun enjoy life

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 10:50:42 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on December 06, 2020, 10:30:14 pmNo, it clearly indicates it's an SRC35ZSA-W, the SRK is theindoor unit. The DXK12ZSA-W is also anindoor unit. What the specific differences between those are I don't know, but they're not the outdoor unit so they're not relevant here.I do not have a login for Mitubishi. Please show the outdoor unit schematic for an SRC35ZSA-W showing it to not have an inverter drive. That's all I'm asking, because so far you've shown no evidence of it being non-inverter despite the marketing claims from both Mitsubishi and their distributors.

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 11:19:16 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 06, 2020, 10:50:42 pmThere was a photo on that page of the outside unit.Sorry. If you can't login . I can't give you the details of Mitsubishi login as they would revoke mylogin privileges & all there manuals are copy right . Mitsubishi Australia does have some differences for local customs and regulations and there wording is some what strange to the EU.So until Dave confirms what he actual Has a photo of the outside unit . There could be a possibility That the cowboy may have made a bigger Bull's up than shown .I going by the serial numbers for my reference . from the photos supplied.Lets just say we are both right or both wrong and part as friends .

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 11:25:40 pm
content: There may well be a photo, but both those part numbers (SRKand DXK) are for indoor units. The outdoor unit Dave has is an SRC35ZSA-W, all product pages relevant to these units indicate inverter drive.There's no need not to be friends, it's just that your claim directly contradicts all publically available information and includes multiple errors in reading of the labels shown.. Everything points to, as one would expect of a decent split system purchased in 2020, an inverter driven compressor.If you check out the brochure for their split AC systems:https://mhiaa.com.au/document/split-systems-brochure/It indicatesevery rangein there is inverter driven. And this exact unit combination is in there, with some interesting points like variable power and an inrush current of 3.9A (which is, uh, a little low for not having an inverter. Same figure as on the label.).

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 11:30:18 pm
content: Quote from: Syntax Error on December 06, 2020, 09:36:08 pmNo.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 03:21:09 am
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on December 06, 2020, 11:19:16 pmI posted a photo of the outdoor unit plate, what else is there to show?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 03:25:59 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 06, 2020, 09:24:22 pmI've complained about the practica aspect to them as well, but wanted to know if hard wiring a device like an aircon to an existng power point circuit was even legal.

author: Vovk_Z
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 03:28:19 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 06, 2020, 09:52:21 pmSorry for a large quote, but:"2 This Clause need not apply to unitary window or through-wallairconditioners, nor to heat pump hot water services that are suppliedby a plug and socket-outlet installed adjacent to the unit.".

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 03:29:07 am
content: Quote from: Syntax Error on December 06, 2020, 09:36:08 pmIn this case it looks like they have just cut into the existing 20A wiring to one of the power points in the new room, creating a Y split. This is at the of the already long wiring that goes throughout the house.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 03:30:37 am
content: Quote from: Vovk_Z on December 07, 2020, 03:28:19 amThis unit would not be classed as a "through window" or "through wall" unit, it's a "split system".

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 03:36:14 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 07, 2020, 03:25:59 amConsidering you described this circuit as being 'half the house', I'd go with 'no' via 1.6.5 as I posted before. There's a whole informative appendix on circuit arrangements covering load factors and diversity which I didn't feel like fully grokking last night which would probably back that. I can send you a copy if you feel like absorbing 611 pages. Obviously the work is condemnable on numerous other points anyway.Quote from: EEVblog on December 07, 2020, 03:30:37 amQuite. 4.19 seems pretty clear cut on this subject.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 03:45:48 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 07, 2020, 03:36:14 amNot really.I'll wait for a response from them.

author: sibeen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 04:18:36 am
content: I'm not sure that the powers that be would be entirely thrilled to see a copy of the latest version of AS/NZ 3000 especially as they lke to flog it off for $A220.https://www.techstreet.com/sa/searches/30039054?searchText=AS%2FNZS+3000%3A2018I'd suggest that the mods of this forum get rid of that post before shit hits the fan.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 04:33:02 am
content: Quote from: sibeen on December 07, 2020, 04:18:36 amThe greedy bastards wouldn't be losing anything, so they can get over it. It's readily available via much easier and faster methods than contacting me..

author: sibeen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 04:53:37 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 07, 2020, 04:33:02 amI was actually commenting upon the link that GlennSprigg put up on the first page of this thread which has the full document. That could get this site into legal difficulties.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 05:03:53 am
content: Quote from: sibeen on December 07, 2020, 04:53:37 amOh, I missed that. Yes, that's probably best gone. I stand by 'greedy bastards'..

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 05:57:39 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 06, 2020, 09:52:21 pma) I didn't need to read it as I know whats accepted in practiceb) you're still thinking you can at a quick read pick out some clauses and apply them without consideringallthe applicable clausesIts a standard, its not particularly easy to follow or read, and has built up an illogical structure and wording over its long history.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 06:15:13 am
content: Quote from: Someone on December 07, 2020, 05:57:39 amSo which clause overrides a specific requirement for a lockable isolator at an AC system?I'll point out for the hard of reading (that'd be you!) that Dave has said there is no means of isolation except the breaker. That would mean no 'power point', assuming my guess that you mean 'socket' is correct.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 07:18:07 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 04, 2020, 10:26:20 amIn the UK I would have though that getting the regulator of electricians to take a look would be enough, they would then be struck off but in the UK they are quite pedantic apparently. Last time I had work done the electrician was really worried about if my earth wire was 10sqmm or 16sqmm and once you translate that to round cable of any potential strand size it's near impossible to tell them apart. He concluded that mine was 16sqmm and that an inspector could not disagree so let me off having him rerun it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 09:15:47 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 07, 2020, 06:15:13 amAlso there was no labeling, so potentially dangerous to someone working on the system thinking the aircon breakers were switched off.Didn't hear back from today...

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 09:37:18 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 07, 2020, 03:21:09 amSorry to bug you Dave, Can you please take a picture of the entire front of the AC unit so the whole unit can be seen . So the Name Mitsubishi can be seen . (Front View & Front Right )and did you buy the Inverter unit? or the standard ?Ether one you still a require the lockable Isolator switch as per quote from @ Vovk_ZAs the brochette seem to have a conflict . (may have not been updated )Australia does have Residential codes and this may have been changed for the Green energy thing.To try and Phase out the old style AC systems .Sorry for my Grammar

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 10:07:39 am
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on December 07, 2020, 09:37:18 amI says inverter on it.I didn't think you could buy a non-inverter type in Australia?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 10:09:21 am
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on December 07, 2020, 09:37:18 amIIRC Australia phased out 3 phase residentional and non-inverter units a long time ago as part of an energy reduction inititive.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 04:04:38 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 07, 2020, 07:18:07 amYou mean the voluntary regulatory bodies which have no power to do anything except take money from electricians?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 04:28:25 pm
content: there is someone that they have to show paperwork to every so often from what my electrician said.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 04:38:03 pm
content: Quotenearest thing would be the building works department of the local council if the work is notifiable,niceic naipit and all the rest arecash genaratorsvoluntary,only interested in maintaining there cartel

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 10:12:34 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 07, 2020, 10:07:39 amEvery one of those mini-split units I've seen has an inverter drive, even in the US. I think you can still buy conventional single phase systems but the compact high efficiency ones need the inverter to get the efficiency in such a small package. The outdoor unit of my 3 ton 14 SEER heat pump is a cube more than a meter on a side.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 10:59:26 pm
content: I have this thing of capturing all the documentation for stuff that gets installed at home - a little pedantic/engineer syndrome probably. Finding the install guide online for our Panasonic air-conditioners was near impossible, the install instructions have a wealth of information on electrical and physical needs of the units.I would call a dedicated A/C installer, that advertises the fact, and get some advice? It may have been installed by a no-name contractor? The 'pros' generally try and stick to the rules.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2020, 11:06:57 am
content: Google "AS/NZS 3000:2018".

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2020, 12:23:31 pm
content: For the sake of idle curiosity, as this is at the end of a long cable run, would it be worth calculating the diversity of the circuit, and see how the HVAC challenges the numbers?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2020, 12:51:09 pm
content: Quotedon't know about australian regs,but in the uk it wouldn't make any difference

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 08, 2020, 09:39:10 pm
content: I heard back from them:Quote

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2020, 12:50:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 08, 2020, 09:39:10 pmMake sure the bloke that does the iso switch doesn't just unscrew the active at the terminal on the compressor and then run two wires over to the isolator. It's a no-no. The machine, whilst can be turned off, is still 'hot' inside, understand.

author: TERRA Operative
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2020, 09:27:27 am
content: As an Australian electrician (Well, now an AU sparky living in Japan), when we would install aircons, they would always get a dedicated feed from the switch board and an isolator switch.The work as shown in Dave's photos is completely non-compliant and wouldn't pass any inspection.Exposed single insulation, junction box not fixed down, I can't see the rest of the wiring but all wiring needs to be clipped into place and supported unless the roof space is less then 500-600mm or so (Have to check the exact measurement).Also, at 9 amps, I wonder if they did a maximum demand calculation before hooking it into the circuit? I doubt so... Inspectors love to ping on that detail.... It's a good way to get nuisance tripping at the best (Why does my power always go out when I dry my hair with the aircon turned on??) and a fire at worst.I'd be pushing for a dedicated feed with a separate breaker, it's no fun when a future faulty aircon takes out power to half the house during the night.Kudos for choosing Mitsubishi too, they along with Daikin do make nice machines (I have all Mitsubishi in my place).

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2020, 08:02:48 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 08, 2020, 09:39:10 pmClearly they do cut corners.If the circuit is lightly loaded then yes, it seems reasonable enough to run the AC off it, but as above, did they do any calculation, examine the utilization of the circuit, or just use it because it was convenient? Considering the workmanship I think the answer is clear..

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 09, 2020, 10:53:48 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 09, 2020, 08:02:48 pmI guarantee it was this.We have an attic ladder right next to to new aircon and the power point wirign was right there next to it. Guy probably thought it was the easiest install ever - don't have to climb through the roof to run the cable from the panel, just splice it in here!

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2020, 11:37:16 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 09, 2020, 10:53:48 pmOr maybe he was just doing you a favor by getting you 'on the air', so to speak. He could have said that you have to wait until after xmas for a sparky to turn up and run a dedicated service from the fuse box to the A/C.You are fit and quite able to run by yourself two 2.5 twin and earths from the fuse box to that area, 1 for the A/C and the other to split up that other circuit with too many things already on it. The fitter presumed you are either a tight wad or lazy.

author: tonyh88
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 12:39:16 am
content: definitely sketchy....

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 12:28:26 pm
content: An isolation swish. Must check if Digikey do them in a polished turd color?QuoteAre they talking about free energy? KWin < KWout ?Indeed, really important they don't get caught cutting corners. Or cutting costs. Makes one wonder just how many of their other installations in Sydney now need verifying that they've been done to code?Guess they picked the wrong guy to frigg the job on?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 02:01:59 pm
content: Quote from: Syntax Error on December 10, 2020, 12:28:26 pmNo, they're talking about the refrigeration cycle..

author: Poty
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 02:40:24 pm
content: Well, in my humble opinion, it is not a "legal" connection.In my country, and under the suspect that this is a normal "home" aircon, (1 phase, split and low power one), normative commands that you MUST have an exclusive line from the main or the secondary board to the aircon. And it connects to the inner unit. There is a 3, 4 or 5 cable package that connects the inner with the outter unit, to provide power and command. That´s all. Intermediate boxes doesn´t exist.Ok, that´s the normative, and good aircon installers follow it rigorously.The rest of the universe? does what they want.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2020, 12:43:49 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 10, 2020, 02:01:59 pmQuite so.Air conditioners (not evaporative air coolers) and refrigerators are the two most common forms ofheat pump. A heat pump is a device whichtransfersthermal energy from one location to another. As such, it takes a lot less energy to do this transfer than create it (for the example of heating). It is not at all unusual to put 1kW of power into a system for it to give you the equivalent of 3kW of heating (or thereablouts).Howmuchenergy will be required is a factor of the temperature differential between the two locations (as well as efficiencies, etc.). If you want heat to flow from one location that is cooler to one that is warmer, then you will need to put in some work. However, if you want heat to flow from one location that is warmer to one that is cooler, then you will require less work - and, in fact, this happen withnoenergy input - just at a rate dictated by the thermal resistance of the situation.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2020, 12:51:02 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on December 09, 2020, 11:37:16 pmThis is what I would do. Find out the requirements for running a cable and get that in place. Then all the sparky has to do is confirm the cable run is OK then terminate the ends. Quick and easy job for them and I get the satisfaction of knowingwherethe cable is and how it was secured .... and that the whole job is up to my expectations.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2020, 04:51:53 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on December 11, 2020, 12:51:02 amI paid for the installation, they are going to damn well do it!

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2020, 08:40:06 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 11, 2020, 04:51:53 amYes, but are you going to be able to persuade them to do it reasonably soon, using a fully licenced and insured electrician, and fully to code so it passes an independent inspection?If their proposal and timetable to rectify the defective installation isn't entirely to your satisfaction, you may well be better off pressing for a refund of all monies paid less the trade cost of the air conditioning unit, so you can employ an electrician of your choice to do the job properly!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2020, 10:59:35 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on December 11, 2020, 08:40:06 amToo much dicking around, just get them to fix it.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2020, 12:45:30 pm
content: Quote from: sibeen on December 07, 2020, 04:53:37 am

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 05:00:57 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on December 11, 2020, 12:43:49 amSeveral years ago I had some people on another technical forum berate me for pushing pseudoscience when I mentioned that a heat pump gives you more heat into the room than it consumes in electricity. Nevermind the fact that I had one already, and apparently they'd never heard of little insignificant companies like General Electric and Trane that made them for decadesResistance heat is 100% efficientat converting electricity into heat, but that ignores the part of the cycle where heat is turned into electricity in the first place which is far less efficient, not to mention transmission losses. The laws of energy prevent you from using a heat pump to heat the boilers at the power company to generate the electricity to run the heat pump but it does not prevent you from recovering a portion of the losses incurred turning heat into electricity by pumping heat from outside into the building.

author: noidea
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 06:55:06 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 07, 2020, 10:09:21 amNot so much phased them out per se, the gov just keeps lifting the MEPS barriers every couple of years and manufacturers stop importing ones that don't comply or are not worth re engineering to meet our standards.

author: noidea
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 07:09:35 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 08, 2020, 09:39:10 pmYou can download the manufacturers installation manual from their website, if you want to see what they say:https://mhiaa.com.au/document/avanti-srk-zsa-w-dxk-zsa-w-series-installation-manual/The brochure also says the unit can draw up to 9A max current

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2021, 08:40:12 am
content: UPDATE!They came back out the fix it, and I now have not one but TWO unsecured and exposed wiring boxes!

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2021, 08:56:18 am
content: SMH

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2021, 09:08:41 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 04, 2021, 08:56:18 amSMH?

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2021, 09:15:01 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2021, 09:08:41 amShake my head.At least the j boxes are not sitting on or in the insulation. So there's that.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2021, 09:36:45 am
content: Did they fix the isolator up?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2021, 09:40:30 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 04, 2021, 09:36:45 amNew dedicated wiring back to the mains fuse box and a dedicated circuit braker installed. It did cost me the cabling though as they claimed it was perfectly fine and legal to install into the existing mains power point wiring given the rating.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2021, 09:49:13 am
content: Yeah but that Jbox abomination. The thing is, the bare single exposed conductors aside, I just don't like idea of pumping 10,16,20A through a plastic jbox. We are supposed to nail the bloody things to a fixture.The problem is the size of the actual AC connector and thus the size of the wire joint. A 42 deg day outside and that little box get hot hot hot. At least this way it does have a bit of air flow in the natural ventilation of your roof (if it's built right).You can fix it easily with a nice headshrinked join clipped to that stringer there. But I know you don't want to.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2021, 10:08:16 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 04, 2021, 09:49:13 amYes it's supposed to be fixed, but no those boxes aren't an issue.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2021, 10:12:58 am
content: They cannot be serious? Like most EEVBlog followers, I was expecting to see this job rectified to standard, not botched even more. Did the guy pass the practical part of the Licensed Electrician's Assessment (LEA), and if so, who the hell was doing the assessment? I hope that black tape is to standard, and not from the same dubious quality dumpster as those plastic boxes? At least you now have the certified paperwork

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2021, 10:18:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2021, 10:08:16 amDo I understand correctly? Did they drag a new wire through from the fuse box and stop short and join it in the roof instead of taking it all the way to iso switch?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2021, 10:21:29 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 04, 2021, 10:18:32 amYes, they just spliced into the existing short wire. There is no iso switch near the unit, that's the job of the new circuit breaker in the fuse box.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2021, 10:26:06 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2021, 10:21:29 amAh, right no iso at the unit. Ok. If it were my house I'd just put one in. They should have pulled the wire through to the A/C. That's up to shit.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2021, 01:53:11 pm
content: Can you buy the parts and cable in Oz without a sparky ticket? As a rural home owner in the US, I'd fix that abomination myself, after having the lawyer and both county and township zoning inspectors out for a look.Even in lax rural Ohio that would get a ticket pulled or a fake sparkle fined.Steve

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2021, 03:39:31 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2021, 10:21:29 amStill doesn't comply with 4.19. Cowboys.E: And now I've seen the photo. Get a refund, hire a real electrician.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2021, 01:14:37 am
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on February 04, 2021, 01:53:11 pmAs far as I can tell, you can buy anything you like**- but using it in a fixed installation situation (such as this) will put you on the wrong side of the law, unless you have the appropriate licencing.**Piggy-back plugs are, I believe, restricted - because you have geniuses who, if they have two on hand and no inline socket, use what they have to make up an "extension cord".

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2021, 06:44:39 am
content: One thing you can do as a result of this.Change the A/C breaker for a single din RCD and put some of those back room GPOs on that circuit.You have a third power circuit.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2021, 06:52:50 am
content: Well, still appears to fail on numerous points. It's slightly less shit now..

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2021, 07:09:21 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 05, 2021, 06:52:50 amStralya, mate.

author: Johm M
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 05, 2021, 07:48:44 am
content: Just referring to time stamp 3:40 on your dodgy air cond wiring . It appears that there is an orange wire approx 150 mm long behind the switchboard with a bare copper end . This may constitute an electrical shock hazard and should be investigated promptly for your own safety . Thanks for the interesting videos and I hope I have put this in the correct section of your site.

author: noidea
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2021, 10:38:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2021, 10:21:29 amI am sure you can write off the cost of AS3000 for EEVBlog purposes, I suggest having a read of clauses 2.3.4.5 or 4.8.2.3 and 4.19 about Isolation switches. The requirement to have a lockable isolating switch adjacent to the air conditioner came in to play in the 2018.Suggest to the other party that you are considering taking it up with your local regulator about getting the installation inspected but make sure there is no other dodgy wiring in your house or it could become a bigger issue than it is.

author: Barny
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2021, 10:56:08 am
content: I would take a look into the boxes in the attic.I've the bad feeling that there are some little surprises hidden inside.Like only twisted together and wrapped with electrical tape.

author: Naguissa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2021, 02:34:35 pm
content: OMG!My house is smaller than yours, but take at look at this....Main box:Garage box (secondary box):Meter and fuse are outside the house, ground is in backyard, with a connection box.That's in Spain, a 2018 renewed installation.P.D.: Labels are not mine, there're a lot of bad-spelled words on them...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2021, 09:46:01 pm
content: Quote from: Naguissa on February 05, 2021, 02:34:35 pmYes, they wouldn't instal la box like this now, but it was different in the 80's.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2021, 09:48:22 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2021, 09:46:01 pmHonestly you probably should have that old mess cleaned up, it's fairly horrifying. Especially with random wires sticking out. Also, who knows what's going on with all the grounds in that blob of tape and suffering.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2021, 09:52:59 pm
content: I too noticed the wires hanging out too. I can't believe you could be there and not see that.

author: Naguissa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2021, 09:58:32 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2021, 09:46:01 pmDave, shame on you... You are EE!EDIT:My mother house (flat) is from '91. It has a smaller box, with 1 "differential" (ground fault interruptor) and 5 power control units (bipolar all of them). Before "intelligent" meters there was also a ICPM (power switch, sealed by company to check maximum instant consuption). But everything inside house, pr9tected in a non-metal box....Also fuses and meters (originally analogic ones), always outside home. In this case in a special room in ground level of the building. This is useful for companies, they can cut electric flow if you don't pay.... (all these rooms have a master key that all electric companies have).

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2021, 10:27:23 pm
content: Quote from: noidea on February 05, 2021, 10:38:36 amno other dodgy wiring like those unsegregated "alarm" cables etc, probably a world of pain if the whole installation was checked over.

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2021, 11:30:02 pm
content: Wow Your Fuse Box Looks Like something from the Third world .Book Of Horrors . So glad I don't live in house with that wiring it would keep meup at nights holding a fire Extinguisher .That type of fuse board Layout was banned here 30 ++ years ago.And did you not see that wire just flapping in the wind with a bared end ..

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2021, 11:35:45 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on February 05, 2021, 11:30:02 pmThe house is about 35 years old.

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2021, 11:44:26 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2021, 11:35:45 pmDave . I would really recommend you Get that Box Totally Replaced with the new rail Mountenclosure and a complete rewire .I would hate for one of your future Video's showing how your house went up in smoke .That Box layout is a real NO NO . I would but that on your" I must do list as number 1 project . " .. Do it for the Kids Safety if nothing else ..

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 12:23:27 am
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on February 05, 2021, 11:44:26 pmThe layout is fine and quite common. Portable heaters here burn down many more houses than fuse boxes.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 12:25:10 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 06, 2021, 12:23:27 amBut it's a bastard horrible mess which has clearly been hacked on by people who don't know what they're doing.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 12:27:36 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 06, 2021, 12:25:10 amErr. Yeah.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 12:34:23 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2021, 11:35:45 pmWhat material is the swinging panel made of--the one that the breakers are mounted on?

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 12:46:09 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 06, 2021, 12:34:23 amCompressed Camel shit.https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Standard-Blank-Black-Meter-Box-Panel-580mm-x-560mm-NSW-Standard/192961909857

author: Naguissa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 12:48:41 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 06, 2021, 12:46:09 amProbably kangoroo shit, cutted with ausie knife...PS: It´s a joke!

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 12:51:31 am
content: Quote from: Naguissa on February 06, 2021, 12:48:41 amhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_cameleers_in_Australia

author: Naguissa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 01:24:31 am
content: Jokes aside.I have a little kid, but even without him I wanted a non-gas house.I wanted a safe place, and as I bougth this house, I priorized electrical wiring over anything on the restoration (50+ year old house).Now I want to get solar pannels and bateries to get off-grid, but economical status of Spain is horrible, so I (we) need to calculate every little step,...Still, electric appliances are so easy to protect and rework that any improvement is quite easy, even if you have to bypass local regulations...I remember when I was a kid: I rewired a village house upper floor: I intalled a shielded whire, 3.5Kw outdoors whire, in my grandmother house, to feed 2 bulbs. It had two tiny wires, near 70 y.o. I used that wire because..... it was in a village house, having mud (adobe, not the computer one) walls...And it's still in uae, even when I'm just hovering 40....Anyway, usually any wire is enougth, but I prefer oversized wires to be capable to handle future needs,

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 10:11:38 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 06, 2021, 12:23:27 amExactly.Just because it isn't pretty, doesn't mean it's dangerous.There are tens of thousands of installations that look just like this - and most owners won't know about the tangle behind the board because they won't look at anything but the meters and fuses/breakers. (Yes, there are still a lot of ceramic fuses still out there.)

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 10:16:40 am
content: Quote from: Naguissa on February 05, 2021, 09:58:32 pmThat means he can understand what's there - and have an idea of risk - but unless he is alicenced electrician, he can't touch it.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 03:51:13 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 06, 2021, 10:11:38 amJust because there are lots like it doesn't mean it's safe. It's clearly not properly maintained.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 04:11:32 pm
content: I bet if you inspected every electricians own house you'd find more than few that don't comply 100% to the rules,i know mine dont,but in the main we know the risks and what exactley is safe

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 06:47:58 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 06, 2021, 03:51:13 pmIf you can't distinguish Between A mess and Down rightDangerous .I marked the 3 Hot spots All illegal .. in the rest of the 1st & 2nd world class countries.Except for Australia where the electricians don't work to any safety standards ..

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 07:12:48 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on February 06, 2021, 06:47:58 pmJust because you don't know what you're looking at doesn't mean it's dangerous. It is presently a mess - that's reason enough to investigate. Whether it's dangerous or not needs to be determined by doing more than screaming "OH GOD I SEE COPPER IT MUST BE LIVE!", and "A CABLE TIE, IT WILL KILL US!".I cannot see for certain what that wire is connected to or whether it's live - and nor can you. It actually looks like that was the feed to the breaker, which would mean it's not live..QuoteAh, yes, one bad installation condemns an entire country.Calm down, dear, and get a grip.

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 07:44:53 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 06, 2021, 07:12:48 pmYou overly did not look close enough Not the CABLE TIE,The Blue wire follow it were it goes to .But I guess you are Not a Certified Electrician as you would not have made such comment .& Yes I am A certified Electrician my Licence is for 1.5KV 600amp UK . .Now retired but still hold a valid Licence .

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 07:53:28 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on February 06, 2021, 07:44:53 pmIt's hard to see much of anything in the five pixels you grabbed. There are no blue wires anywhere in there. E: Okay, there's one blue one but it's not in that bundle and you can barely see it.You may be a certified electrician, somewhere (UK? What, UKraine (which is UA..)? Because you're not here.), but you're jumping to conclusions. You cannot inspect andtestthe installation through a glance at a Youtube video.

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 08:00:15 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 06, 2021, 07:53:28 pmIf your trying to be smart and follow my IP wont work I,m on a Secure VPN .What, UKraine (which is UA..) Answer is No not in those countries

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 08:01:25 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on February 06, 2021, 08:00:15 pmI'm not and I don't have your IP. Nor do I care about your paranoia.QuoteSo where's this 'UK' license for? And why does it qualify you to make judgements on systems you can't properly see and don't know the applicable standards for?

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 08:05:57 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 06, 2021, 08:01:25 pmwhy what would you do if you saw it .. its no use to a colour blind Monke h

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 08:08:45 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on February 06, 2021, 08:05:57 pmI'd know something about the qualifications you're so proud of.And I'm not colour blind - I know the difference between blue and green/yellow. You, apparently, can't see that - perhaps turn off the VPN so you can see the video at better than 360p.This is perhaps a language barrier - that and an issue of assumption. You've seen some things which you assume are dangerous without knowing the context and are banging on your vaguely licensed drum about it. Me, I've seen a general mess which merits investigation rather than assumptions. But we both seem to agree it's an awful mess..

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 08:55:48 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 06, 2021, 08:08:45 pmOk yes maybe I few off the handle a bit . I have put another picture with 3 arrows .the Blue wire goes to the tap up . were the other 3 green/yellow wire marry up under the tape .The Wire is solid Blue . ..Also the Bare wire live or dead should have at least have clamp protector on it

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2021, 09:18:30 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on February 06, 2021, 08:55:48 pmNo, no it isn't. Look at it at the base of the tape. It is clearly green/yellow. It makes no sense for a blue wire to go there, none of the cables used in the installation willhaveblue wires. E: Possible exception of 3+E used for two way lighting, I guess that probably does. But it won't be back here..What the condition of that joint is is a complete unknown, which is why this mess needs dealing with, but it's not obviously dangerous.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2021, 01:52:31 am
content: I'm in US. I had A/C mess before.According to my lawyer, I had two choices.1) Have the installer yank out what they did and pay me back the whole cost2) Have a new installer FIX what's wrong and sue the first for the cost of repairHaving the first one do the right thing wasn't even discussed. At that point, either they can't or they won't was well established.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2021, 02:34:31 am
content: Quote from: tkamiya on February 07, 2021, 01:52:31 amYep. Dave's been dicking around with their idiots for over two months now since I suggested it would probably need legal action:Quote from: EEVblog on December 04, 2020, 10:26:20 amand no-one (including Dave) knows for sure if their remediation is up to current code, + they've dunned him for the extra cost of the wiring that *should* have been included in the original quote:Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2021, 09:40:30 amor if it wasn't and their contention tapping the socket circuit was legal is true, then what about the islotator they should have fitted if they were doing it that way?@Dave,Get a qualified person to isolate the aircon and socket circuits and check the connections in those junction boxes and in the aircon itself. If you are tempted to check them your self *DON"T* tell us *YOU* looked at them, just whether or not they were OK.Also ask on electriciansforums.net if current code requires a local isolator for a new install of an aircon of the type you have on a dedicated circuit. You'll then have a decent idea whether you should get an independent electrician in to sort it out for peace of mind, possibly fitting local isolators to all the aircons if that's current code, or whether its good enough as-is.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2021, 02:53:52 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on February 07, 2021, 02:34:31 amQuote from: Monkeh on December 06, 2020, 09:52:21 pm

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2021, 03:05:57 am
content: @Monkeh: I belive you are correct.QuoteI've just checked back - Dave's first post confirms its a split type, so the clause *DOES* apply.However he'll probably feel the need for a locally qualified electrician to tell him that: *NO*, we aren't misinterpreting code, hence my suggestion to check back with electriciansforums.net.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2021, 03:28:22 am
content: Again, I'm only familiar with Japanese code where I am licensed as an electrician and some of US code but not much.According to my attorney in United States, my opinions doesn't matter but I need an "expert" testimony. I had to hire someone in the industry and have him tell me what's wrong. Then, court has an option to summon him to personally testify. Then and only then, we can prove the installer wrong. OUR opinion does not count in court of law. At least in United States, it does not.This is my last post on this thread as there is nothing more for me to share anything useful. Dave, good luck.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2021, 01:16:42 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on February 06, 2021, 08:55:48 pmDear Sir... you do realize don't you?? that the main objection to your 1st comment wasn't about the 'messy'wiring, but your automatic assumption that 'Aussies' are slack and know nothing about rules!!Yes, we often joke about 'our-selves' with our 'She'll be right' attitude, but that has NOTHING to do with ourknowledge, training & pride for the vast majority of us now/prior professionals! The same can be said for anycountry. There are 'tradesmen', and then there are "TRADESMEN!" Just so that you know...Our Old switchboards with the swinging Bakelite panels with often old original porcelain fuses & switches, oftencustom mounted, WERE a bit of a rats-nest behind them. It didn't look 'pretty', but it was clear where each cablecame from, and the occasional loops that were visible & obvious. Now!... Even Australia!! (Who would have thunkit!), uses modern modular panels/boxes, with modern breakers/main-switches/ELCB etc etc., with built-in Bus-Barsetc. However, when new wiring is added to older premises, it is not Law to change to a new/modern panel, generally.Old porcelain fuses etc MAY be changed to newer Breakers, and new Circuits MAY come in from either above or below.Even if the main board is changed completely, often the 'old' wiring may not reach the 'new' Bus, Breaker-Strip. So itis common to 'join' those wires, with a crimped (double crimped either end) connector.I was/am a 'perfectionist' with MY wiring, due to my upbringing in the field, but in 'Static' (as opposed to wiring in anaircraft or space-shuttle!) wiring, un-cable-tied wires un-seen, can be a blessing to follow!!

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2021, 03:08:46 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on February 07, 2021, 01:16:42 pmThank you but actually, no, Glenn, you don't speak for me or understand my objection at all.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 01:49:12 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on February 07, 2021, 02:34:31 amThey readily admitted they should have installed an isolator.In this case with the new dedicated breaker I don't care for nor want an additional isolator.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 02:01:26 am
content: .... so they've dunned you for the extra cost of the wire, which should have been largely or completely offset by the cost of the isolator they failed to install, and left you with an installation that may not even be code compliant.Please at least tell me that either the breaker box is lockable with a padlock or the new breaker is lockable, so the aircon can be locked-out/tagged-out for service by a HVAC tech, without having to get a fully certified electrician in to isolate it.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 02:07:45 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on February 10, 2021, 02:01:26 amThose breakers are all lockable.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 04:56:48 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on February 10, 2021, 02:01:26 amNo, they are refunding my install money.QuoteNo, it's not, and that's the same for the 3 other aircons as well.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 05:02:46 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 10, 2021, 04:56:48 amThe breakers are absolutely lockable. There will be a groove in the base of the lever when in the off position and two small holes on either side for fitting one of these:You can also use these:

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2021, 05:53:30 am
content: Then there's this from a Western Australian A/C install company...I was told that the way an electrical inspector (do they even exist now?) could tell if an owner did their own electrical work was how neat and tidy it was done.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2021, 09:58:43 pm
content: Quote from: aargee on February 11, 2021, 05:53:30 amSo if it looks too neat, there is a good chance the home owner did the job?I have seen cases where the so called professional electricians did a less than stellar job.Here is an example of too neat of an installation that is totally wrong; just follow the wires to the conduits to see that each phase goes through a separate conduit.edit: the inspector didn't catch this.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2021, 05:30:45 am
content: Quote from: aargee on February 11, 2021, 05:53:30 amI have heard the exact same story in regards to a number of building processes. Everything from electrical, to framing, to .... you name it.The professionals know how far they need to go for the result to pass inspection - by the relevant authority. The owner will want it "just so" and will take extra effort that a tradesman just can't afford.A typical example I saw at Bunnings a few weeks ago... You have your tradie who will load up 30 lengths of timber and only pass up on one or two that are significantly bent or twisted. You then have a weekend warrior who will go through 50 pieces (or more) looking for 10, checking each and every one for straightness and defects, only going for the ones that look as perfect as possible. The tradie will be in and out in 10 minutes while the weekend warrior could spend an hour puttering around.BTW - these are framing timbers I'm talking about. Not gonna see them when the wall sheeting is affixed.