New ST Nucleo Boards - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: savril
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2015, 08:36:06 pm
content: I just spotted 3 new nucleo boards at Farnell :NUCLEO-F031K6 :http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/tools/FM147/CL1818/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1847/PF262498?s_searchtype=keywordNUCLEO-F303K8 :http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/tools/FM147/CL1818/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1847/PF262544?s_searchtype=keywordNUCLEO-F042K6 :http://www.st.com/web/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1847/PF262496What's cool with these is that they have the arduino nano format, yes at least there's genuine breadboardable STM32 boards ! I was going to buy another arduino micro for quick and dirty hack but I may consider buying this F04 instead.There's also a new discovery kit, STM32F469I-DISCO with 4 inches 800x480 pixel TFT and capacitive touch :http://www.st.com/web/catalog/tools/FM116/CL1620/SC959/SS1532/LN1848/PF262395. Much like the F07 discovery kit, without Ethernet but with a more affordable MCU.I like more and more ST kits. Hopefully, pay day is coming.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2015, 10:21:30 pm
content: Thanks for the notice!I just ordered the NUCLEO-F303K8 and NUCLEO-F042K6 from Digikey.I have a few of the full-size nucleo boards, but as you alluded to--they are sort of cumbersome to use.Edit: Just saw the new discovery board you listed. Looks nice. I have the 32F429IDISCOVERY board, but the quality is sub-par. The board is warped and may eventually pull the display off.All of the Nucleo/Discovery products seem to be build down to a price (they *are* cheap, afterall).

author: savril
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 11:10:55 am
content: One drawback though, according to the datasheet and this summary page, there only 32 or 64 kbytes of RAM :http://www.st.com/web/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1847

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 04:36:37 pm
content: Oh, they have much less than that. 4KB or 6KB of SRAM. They have 32-64KB of flash.These are entry level chips.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 04:54:16 pm
content: Quote from: dadler on October 30, 2015, 04:36:37 pmYeah, but still pretty useful as a dev board. Here goes my 20 bucks ...

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 05:31:43 pm
content: For what thing on earth would you need more than about 32kB for the basic arduino stuff? Better learn how to write code eficciently not to run out of memories too quickly.Or learn how to connect external memory device (SD card, SPI Flash, I2C E2PROM...) instead, if you need a fuckton of memory space for a small micro.Micros with bigger flash are usualy also bigger by the peripheral count and so, but MCU isneverment for storing huge gulps of non-executable data. Move the nonexecutable application data outside to some storage chip. That way it will be also cheaper, than trying to buy a MCU with large enough internal flash memory.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 08:08:47 pm
content: Quote from: Yansi on October 30, 2015, 05:31:43 pmWhy do you assume people are using these for "basic arduino stuff"? And, since we are talking about RAM, you'd be amazed how easy it is to use up 4KB of RAM on a 32bit micro, especially if you are trying to use any of the peripheral libraries...

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 01:20:24 am
content: Quote from: dadler on October 30, 2015, 08:08:47 pmYep, the STM32F03x and STM32F04x chips with little memory are practically unusable with the HAL/Standard peripheral libraries. Even something as silly as initializing an UART can easily take up 1/3 of the available FLASH and RAM. Fortunately the registers are quite well documented for the most part.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 09:14:04 am
content: Atmel also has a small M0+ microcontroller (SAMD10 and related.) Maxes out at 16k of flash and 4k of RAM.Which would sound like a lot compared to an 8k/1k 8-bit , except that the SAMD10-getting-started example program, which flashes an LED and sends some text to the uart on timer expiration or user pushbutton using "Atmel Software Foundation" ends up taking about 10k of flash and over 1k of RAM. A vaguely similar Arduino sketch is about 11k for M0+ and 3k for AVR. So it's not just Arduino-stuff that is bloated.AFAIK, there are a bunch of vendors that keep shrinking the memory content of their bottom-end ARM products, without providing any "reduced footprint libraries" to make them practical to use. (which would sort-of be ok - 8bit microcontrollers frequently don't come with extensive libraries, either. But they're all still pushing their "big ARM" libraries. (and the gnu big-arm libraries, too. Usually newlib (maybe nano) and the gnu soft-fp.) (you don't notice how nicely tuned avr-libc is until you've watched newlib suck in filesystem code to support printf()!)

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 10:05:31 pm
content: Well, for things like printf() and similar there are smaller versions of them than what is in newlib() - e.g. this mini-printf:https://github.com/mludvig/mini-printfIt is not full featured (e.g. printing floats isn't working), but these small chips are usually not meant for doing heavy lifting anyway.

author: richardman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 07:58:35 pm
content: The small Cortex-M0 are very competitive with the larger AVR - much faster and better code space usage for C. I used to think that some vendor should mate a -M0 core with simple AVR or PIC like peripherals, but after designing JumpStart API, I don't think it's necessary any more - the main problem with the vendor libraries and solutions are really that they are not solving the problems for the users, but they are mainly there to keep the users to their own ecosystems. You can see ARM tries to equalize the offerings by promoting CMSIS and mbed etc., but they have problems themselves.In any case, these Nucleo-32 are interesting - some of the ones are less expensive than the BOM! Talk about loss leaders. This does not bode well for independent Cortex-M board makers.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 11:53:17 pm
content: Quote from: richardman on November 01, 2015, 07:58:35 pmWhy? Personally I find the STM32 peripherals better than what AVRs have (and there are plenty more of them in each chip!) and comparable if not better to what PICs have. And the price is very competitive - the M0 chips costs often half or less of what a comparable AVR would cost ...

author: richardman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 01:55:29 am
content: I was referring to an idea I had a couple years ago - which I no longer hold :-)In any case, the point is that unaided with some tools, it's much easier to knock out simple peripheral code on the AVR vs. the 32-bit Cortex-M.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 04:22:03 am
content: QuoteThis tiny printf, that tiny floating point library, the other 64-bit math functions, Joe's timer library and Sally's Analog library... they exist, but they're a pain for a user to bring together and understand, or to test (shudder.) Looking at the ARM toolsets, I have gained an entirely new appreciation for avr-libc (including the math functions) - what a nice collection of optimized generalizations, without over-reaching.QuoteYes, for suitable definitions of "small" and "larger." At 256k flash, I'm pretty sure I'd rather have an ARM. AVRs start to get difficult above 128k; you can dive into the details of how gcc handles "long" flash pointers and think "you're kidding, right?" But that's a pretty big M0, too. At 16k flash and less, I think I'd still want the AVR.(My, how times change. I can remember buying some AT90S1200 and AT90S2313 chips, with a couple ATmega48s thrown in as the "big" option, so I wouldn't have to worry about code space. Back in the "Of course I'll be using assembler" days. Now, an ATmega48 is essentially smaller than most people are willing to deal with, and the cost difference between the 4k and 16k flash isn't worth worrying about for anything short of the most mass-produced projects.)

author: richardman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 11:41:24 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on November 02, 2015, 04:22:03 amThere's when I draw the line too. 16K or less - AVR, 32K or more, Cortex-M0.However, the F0xx can be have for less than a dollar. It's tough to argue with that.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 11:49:09 pm
content: Quote from: richardman on November 02, 2015, 11:41:24 pmWhich is why I am sticking to F0xx even for 16kB version (I don't think it is available with less flash than that), but 32kB costs only few cents more. Still less than ATMega328P. Basically for the price of an AVR I can have an STM32 ARM with more memory and more peripherals.Just the libraries are a PITA, but after a while you get a decent collection of commonly used code snippets that work.

author: autobot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 12:21:05 am
content: >> Just the libraries are a PITAbut the f0xx in the nucleo should be mbed enabled, right ?

author: richardman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 12:27:50 am
content: ... and people wonder why JumpStart API is needed

author: ralphd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 12:33:12 am
content: Quote from: richardman on November 02, 2015, 11:41:24 pm10 attiny13s run just over $3. Practically disposable.Atmega168 pro minis are down to 120c, while the cheapest ARM boards with a regulator, xtal, and reset button are over $3.

author: autobot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 12:44:05 am
content: well if you go for the low end , you can have the mini51zan (cortex-m0) for 13 centshttps://www.verical.com/pd/nuvoton-microcontroller-MINI51ZAN-731953?utm_source=octopart&utm_medium=buynow&utm_campaign=octopart

author: richardman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 02:28:49 am
content: Speaking of Nouvoton, you don't hear about much anymore (in US), are they mainly used in the Asian markets?

author: autobot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 03:02:30 am
content: regarding nuvoton, don't really really know, haven't used them , just did a brief searchhttps://octopart.com/search?q=mini51zan

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 05:59:26 am
content: QuotePJRC is using a Nouvoton as the boot controller for Teensy3...(In general, one DOESN'T "hear" about where the small microcontrollers go, in terms of real products.)

author: richardman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 07:18:47 am
content: Quote from: westfw on November 03, 2015, 05:59:26 amI thought it's a Kinetics M0 that they were using? Anyway, speaking Teensy-3, these Nucleo-32 are going to kill them...

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 08:48:57 am
content: QuoteIt looks like the newer Teensy 3.2 and Teensy LC use a freescale ("kinetis") mkl02z chip (32k/4k/16pin), while the Teensy 3.0 and 3.1 used a nouvoton mini54TAN (16k+2k/2k/32pin) The MKL02z is supposed to be $0.68 in large quantities...(This is the "boot controller" for the Teensy. There's a bigger ARM chip on the boards for the user programs, but it doesn't have a USB bootloader. The smaller ARM uses the bootloading protocol that does exist to load a secondary USB bootloader into RAM, to do the actual bootloader. (Or something like that. I only looked closely enough to go "that's clever!"))

author: richardman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 08:54:52 am
content: Quote from: westfw on November 03, 2015, 08:48:57 amFor a brief moment in time, we were looking at designing our own "minimal Cortex-M4" boards, and we were going to use the ST32f411 and the STM32F072 for the reason that they have the USB bootloader. When you have to use an M0 to do the bootloading, that's a bit insane unless the Kinetis is just so much better than the ST devices (which I kind of doubt?), but the Nucleo-32 kill that idea. There is no way any board vendor can compete on prices.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 02:25:58 pm
content: Quote from: autobot on November 03, 2015, 12:21:05 amThey are. On the other hand, mbed libraries are not exactly lightweight - they are based on the ST's HAL now.

author: ralphd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 09:51:47 pm
content: Quote from: autobot on November 03, 2015, 12:44:05 amLooks like a special price for old stock. 121c ea at Digi-key and $15 for 10 on aliexpress.The cheapest ARM I can find from official sources is the 8-pin Cypress M0 which is around 50c from the Cypress store in modest qty. It has no ADC though.I ordered a few STM32F030F4P6 off aliexpress along with some ssop20 breakout boards. The total for a breakout board and STM32 is around 75c.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 10:40:21 pm
content: Correction on the mBed support.I have received my F303K8 and F042 boards today. So I wanted to try them with mBed, as both are advertised as "mBed enabled". When you plug the board in, it will actually show up as a mass storage device (the ST-Link MCU on these acts as virtual COM port, mass storage permitting programming and normal ST-Link apparently - very nice!) with an HTML document on it that will open mBed and add the board to your account. Very neatly done.Unfortunately, that's about all that works. If you select one of these boards as a target platform and try to build e.g. the mBed blinky, you will get:"Error: Target "NUCLEO_F303K8" is not recognized" and"Error: Target "NUCLEO_F042K6" is not recognized"The mBed libraries don't support these boards yet!This is an epic fail from both ARM and ST in release coordination

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 11:13:25 pm
content: Quote from: savril on October 29, 2015, 08:36:06 pmYes, yes, we all like ST kits....until we have to faff with their documents and software...Anyhow, people should be aware beforethat one DAC is tied to AG trough resistor and LED if you discover yourwaveform is crocked! And that PA2 on ST-link MCU is set PP and high so if you set PA2 PP and low on device you get aburn , explode pin situation!Unless Rds is high enough to save the trannies!?So you should remove both 0 ohm bridges. There might be more ST suprices! Ah well multiple pins is tied directly toAG on some devices so a drunk P and P operator could cause multiple failures so you should check Nucleo PCB before powering it up!F303K is supported by EmBitz.

author: asgard20032
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 02:18:06 am
content: What do you mean by PP and P operator?

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 02:26:01 am
content: P and P operator is the dude/dudette who runs the Pick and Place machine!PP means Push- Pull, the way the GPO pins output stage transistors is set up by software.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 09:40:08 am
content: Quote from: MT on November 03, 2015, 11:13:25 pmUm, you don't check the schematics of your dev board before using it?PA2 and PA15 pins are USART and are by default connected the ST-LINK pinks so that you can have the virtual COM port functionality (saving you the need for an extra FTDI dongle).LED is on PB3 and PB2/PB8 are tied to ground by a jumper, because they apparently serve as additional Vss pins (odd, need to look up the datasheet on that).There are a few more pins connected to the ST-LINK, such as PA0 and PF0/PC14 (MCO signal) or PA13/14 (SWD).However, all of this is clearly visible from the schematics and is marked in the manual as well and all these pins have solder bridges to enable/disable this functionality. So if anyone causes multiple failures, it won't be the drunken P&P operator but the user of this board that didn't do their homework, IMO.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 11:06:19 am
content: Quote from: autobot on November 03, 2015, 12:44:05 amYou'd better hurry. It goes obsolete next month. :-)

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 03:59:21 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on November 04, 2015, 09:40:08 amHow do you think i found the issues? Because i checked the schematics! You however assume i was a recklessirresponsible who just powered up ST boards on the terms of STCode and Play attitudetrusting ST?QuoteKind of obviousif you read the manualbut point is UART is set to PP/Highthey should have set it OD and PU. It's not PA15 it is PA3. Dont you read data sheets?QuoteLD2 is on PA5. Dont you read data sheets?DAC to AG via resistor and LED is just bad design practice, there are plenty of other pins ST could use.There are plenty of pin cross connections just waiting for a drunk P-P operator.QuoteAnd yet as proved you dont make your own homework before whine on others!Besides no one said it's its visible or not, point is it's designed to eventually cause trouble all depending on the P/P operator drunkor not. Example of drunk operator already happen about 2 years ago ST programmed F378 without USB boot, they recalled millions ofchips from supplier chain to reprogram. So yes ST do screw things up, and its not always visible from schematics and its kind ofnaive approach you have thinking everything is OK with ST. No point in defending ST just because your french!That's why you have to read the Nucleo product manual all way through!However to ST credit majority of Discovery boards is betterly done.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 11:58:19 pm
content: Quote from: MT on November 04, 2015, 03:59:21 pmAre you sure we are talking about the same board? I am referring to one of the new Nucleo boards, namely the one STM32F303 one (but the STM32F042 one has the same schematics - the MCUs are pin-compatible, apparently).I have the schematics from here:http://www.st.com/st-web-ui/static/active/en/resource/technical/layouts_and_diagrams/schematic_pack/nucleo-32pins_sch.zipThe file is called MB1180.pdf inside it, second page. The same schematics is in the User manual (http://www.st.com/st-web-ui/static/active/en/resource/technical/document/user_manual/DM00231744.pdfpage 27) as well.And there the user LED is clearly on pin PB3, PA5 is unused. The UART is analogously on PA2 (VCP_TX) and PA15 (VCP_RX). I am not sure where did you find that the ST-LINK output is set to push-pull neither, even though that would make sense on the VCP_RX line.Quote from: MT on November 04, 2015, 03:59:21 pmI don't see that in my copy of the schematics.QuoteI am either blind or you are talking about a completely different board. Are you referring to the Discovery board (STM32F469I-DISCO) Savril mentioned at the end of the very first post by chance? Or some other (older) Nucleo board? Because, you know, in that case it isn't at all obvious and what you wrote doesn't match the new small form factor Nucleo boards this thread was mostly about at all.QuotePlease keep your baseless assumptions to yourself. First, I am not defending ST anywhere, second I am not sure what anyone's nationality has to do with anything, third, I am not French (there nothing wrong with the French though!), only happen to live in France for the time being, therefore the flag. Do you have more similarly relevant gems?QuoteThen show me where did you find this info, because the official materials from the ST website above certainly don't support what you are saying.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 12:02:02 am
content: QuoteRead the right schematics then!QuoteI clearly said previously:Yes, yes, we all like ST kits....until we have to faff with their documents and software...and means all in general and that is fully supported by ST. Thread posts talk about all kind of things not just Nucleo also DISCO, Farnell,ST, JumpStart API, even ATMEL is mentioned. All i did was giving afriendly help to Nucleo usersfor that you went ballistic!STLK RX and STLK TX might be set PP on these as well, who knows, people have to measure it!You cant just dismiss one Nucleo from the other Nucleo by referring to one and then playing smart arse trying to pull off somelame do your homework sunts on me like some sort of hit and run clown just because you dont comprehend there is 2 typesof Nucleo boards both labeled Nucleo and complain over the gem's dough up and then make such a drama over it all!If ST had been at lest a little bit sane they should have called these Nucleos forMicrosticks!http://www.microchip.com/DevelopmentTools/Listing.aspx?CatID=88d053fc-5616-4075-b4d4-6fb5ee8681d3With STM nothing is obvoius. Im not going to argue more with you about this fact!

author: richardman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 03:13:22 am
content: Quote from: MT on November 10, 2015, 12:02:02 amI think the name *Teensy* is taken

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 09:29:59 pm
content: Quote from: MT on November 10, 2015, 12:02:02 amOK, you have earned the place on my ignore list. No point in dealing with a troll.J.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2015, 09:51:07 pm
content: Update - the new Nucleo boards (STM32F303K8 and STM32F042) are now working in mBed.