Dealing with doctors - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 04:10:17 am
content: I mean the medical kind. I don't want to talk about the relative merits of each country's medical system, but rather what I perceive to be a lack of common ground between medical doctors and people like us that are more hardware inclined.Anyone ever had to face a wall of incomprehension or patronizing tone from a doctor when explaining your medical problem?Ever had a problem that somehow seems to take forever to converge to a solution? Despite CT scans and MRI?Ever present medical journal articles (valid peer-reviewed journals) to a doctor only to be dismissed?

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 04:17:50 am
content: You need a new doctor(s). My doctor usually just asks for my justification and if he agrees with it, he prescribes or we proceed to the next test.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 04:31:15 am
content: Seconded. I think you need to change doctors.One thing to bear in mind is that many doctors seem to have been trained as technicians. They follow a prescribed diagnostic procedure, doing one set of tests at a time, starting with the most likely causes and proceeding to the least likely. It can be very frustrating when doctors will rule something out as "statistically improbable", even though a particular patient may have unique circumstances that change the way the situation should be viewed. I know from family experience that this can have a disastrous outcome.All you can do is persist and look for second or third opinions, until you are heard.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 06:53:57 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on April 17, 2018, 04:10:17 amWhat kind of doctor? A GP? A GP cannot interpret a CT or MRI scan, they just read what the radiologist said in their report.If you have scanned a specific problem, say a knee joint, or a chosen organ, you will need to seek a specialist in the specific field who also can interpret the scan. I know my lower back, the radiologist says I screwed. The GP says try a cortisone injection, but, don't bother with surgery since in the long run, things will only get worse as is the evidence.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 06:59:43 am
content: I've had good and bad experiences with doctors already, despite my rather young age.And for what it's worth, physiotherapists as well, as they are crucial factors in the chain as well.Nonetheless, I think communication is key. You don't want to sound like the patient that has made their own diagnosis and asks the doctor for a formal approval to do this test, this scan etc.Of course you can express the wish if the doctor wants to test your own suspicions, and if not work towards a solution that convinces you.On the other hand some doctors prescribe some medication or treatment and don't explain their intentions. Ask what's up, if they don't talk then they clearly don't care and it's time to get out.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 07:50:09 am
content: Quote from: IanB on April 17, 2018, 04:31:15 amFWIW, I've found this sort of procedural methodology is dictated by insurance companies. So even if your doctor knows what's wrong, they still have to go through the steps presented by the insurance companies if they want to get paid. And the patient tends to suffer as a result.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 08:22:55 am
content: Don't get me started on doctors because I won't stop, the system scamming moronic quacks around these parts really should have been drowned at birth, fucking well incompetent, negligent and severely lacking in common sense from my own recent experiences, all of which are properly recorded and documented.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 08:46:40 am
content: s/doctor/technican/s/medical/software/Now you are beginning to appreciate the feelings mundanes have against the technoelite, e.g. engineers/technicians, programmers etc. Use the same defensive techniques to deal with it.Research your symptoms to find out what questions should be answered. Ensure the professional know that you can ask questions but only they can answer them. Don't present The Answer as a bald statement; use it as a line of enquiry that mightor might notbe relevant.Make sure they know you are both professionals with the same objective. Have a conversation about it.At the start of a meeting, give a 30s elevator pitch about why you are there and what you want to get from the meeting. Write a history of symptoms/timescales which mightor might notbe relevant; the doctor won't have remembered your medical history. That all gets the medics mind on the right track.How would you react if someone presented you with a computer system that "isn't working right", a couple of diagnostic outputs, and a stackexchange Q&A? (EEVBlog would be higher quality, of course)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 08:54:49 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on April 17, 2018, 04:10:17 amDoctors taking forever to converge to a solution is a common thing. Despite patients wanting clarity and simple solutions, medicine isn't always easy or straightforward. Anyone familiar with troubleshooting knows that some bugs can be elusive and biology is infinitely more intracate than regular engineering.Patients doing their own research and taking this to the doctor is an infamous phenomena. Sometimes it can be helpful, but more often than not people aren't capable of considering the information in the right context. This can lead to extra work for the doctor, as the patient is effectively fighting him. Meanwhile, the patient feels misunderstood or unheard.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 08:58:07 am
content: If anyone is experiencing health issues and expect 'doctors' and 'GPs' to magically bail you out... GOOD LUCK !Tip: "Internet"

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 09:37:53 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on April 17, 2018, 08:58:07 amYour assessment that doctors aren't miracle workers and are bound by the laws of phyiscs is correct, but what does that have to do with the internet?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 10:31:45 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on April 17, 2018, 08:58:07 amIf anyone is experiencing health issues and expect 'Internet' to magically bail you out... GOOD LUCK !

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 10:46:14 am
content: They get so many people coming to them wanting a fix for their symptoms that when someone comes to them wanting to find the cause for a symptom they dont expect it or know how to approach it.You also need to watch out for doctors that are practicing medicine from the 1970s and are not uptodate on latest knowledge or research.As an example, its not uncommon to come across a doctor horrified that you are feeding your baby a vegetarian diet.This despite entire cultures having being vegetarian for 100's of generations.They were taught in med school that it was dangerous in the 1970s so that's what they tell you.The best advise for dealing with doctors is to not assume they are right because they are a doctor.

author: medical-nerd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 11:59:55 am
content: HiyaQuote from: tggzzz on April 17, 2018, 10:31:45 amThe internet is only useful when you primarily know what you are looking for and are seeking further information AND have a context in which to apply the information. Without that the information is useless.Cheers

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 12:12:04 pm
content: Quote from: medical-nerd on April 17, 2018, 11:59:55 amArguably you are too optimisticYou also need to be able to distinguish between high and low quality information (a key modern skill for youngsters), which implies you can accurately assess the current context in which you find yourself.

author: medical-nerd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 12:55:40 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 17, 2018, 12:12:04 pmYup - I took that as such an essential pre-requirement that I didn't think to mention it.Cheers

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 02:31:50 pm
content: I discovered yesterday that myformerpodiatrist flat out lied to me. Told me that I had planter faciatis and prescribed inserts for my shoes, that he just happened to carry. I do have an issue with toenail fungus but he said it was all over my feet and prescribed expensive medications, that he also kept on hand. I went to SWMBO's podiatrist whom she loves and he said I don't have planter faciatis but simple bone spurs that don't cause me any pain and there was no fungus on my feet, just simply a case of very dry skin due to the fact that I wear sandals all the time. He calls them "Florida Feet" He gave me a script for a topical I have a 6 week followup where he wants me to bring in my shoes and inserts to see what was given to me. He also gave me a script for diabetic shoes/inserts that should be free under program. I hate anyone that lies to me, but to lie to me to take hundreds of dollars that I didn't need to spend? I was in a dimension of p**sed off I haven't been in for quite some time.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 03:16:04 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on April 17, 2018, 04:10:17 amOh God, tell me about it. I just had a most infuriating example very recently (20180406).By 'hardware inclined', I think you mean 'technically and analytically inclined, and able to research and make logical inferences and deductions'?There are several issues with the medical profession:* Medical practitioners get used to dealing with 'average' people - which means generally ignorant and stupid. So the doctor develops ingrained attitudes that all patients are ignorant and stupid.* When they encounter a patient that is 'high bandwidth' and has researched their own problem to the point where they possibly know more about it than the GP, they just can't relate.* Doctors are generally extremely busy. They don't have time to do research, or come to grips with complex case histories.* They see so many patients, they can't possibly remember case details in much detail for specific patients.* They are trained to apply fixed rules of observation and reaction. Not to get creative themselves. (This is probably a good thing in general. But fails in special cases that are 'not in the standard handbook.')* When the medical problem is anything out of the ordinary, that actually needs serious research and logical inference, they just can't do it.* Some of them are pathetic useless gits. Like in _any_ group of people.My story involves a really unusual infection picked up from a leech bite on a bushwalk back in Mar 2015. Which still persists today, due to being so bizarre there's nothing in the literature, and no known treatment. Only possible due to a freakish combination of circumstances, that unfortunately for me, happened in this instance. It's very debilitating, and persists despite multiple antibiotics courses due to the most unlikely, ridiculous, little-known effect. But with so far no solution.I have the entire saga online, at a private URL, for passing to specialists. This thread just begs me to post the link here, but sadly, I think for legal reasons I'd better not. Eventually it will be public, but not yet.Just in case anyone can suggest anything: Quick summary-The bacterium is called Aeromonas Hydrophila. It's a motile, iron-loving bug that can switch between aerobic and anaerobic metabolism. Widely drug resistant, and likes iron-rich environments. Exports a pore-forming toxin called Aerolysin (look it up.) Can be transmitted by leech bite. Normally does not infect humans unless they have an impaired immune system, or some deep wound. In which case AH (or rather its toxin) causes necrotizing fasciitis, ie it's a flesh-eating bacteria and can be lethal.I have a genetic condition called haemochromatosis, causing excessively high blood iron levels, with a side effect of impaired immune function. ie I'm an environment this bug likes.Got infected with it from a leech bite. With no other input it would have rapidly killed me. I had a fever of 38.5 deg within 6 hours of the leech bite. But immediately self-administered standard antibiotics. Knocked it down but not out. Intermittent fevers and stop-start antibiotics (a mistake) for 9 days, then ended up in hospital with temp nearing 39 deg C. More antibiotics.But... It's motile, and can go anaerobic, ie live in zero-oxygen environments. There is a place in the human body that can be anaerobic, and neither antibiotics or the immune system can reach.... the vitreous humour of the eyes.Yep, I have a colony of motile bacteria living in the vitreous humour. They can get out in small numbers to the bloodstream, so I keep getting repeat fever flareups and pretty nasty localized infections. So far not so bad as necrotizing, but some have been pretty unpleasant.But this is so rare, no one has ever heard of it. My GP is finally convinced, but we can't find either an analytical test for presence of the toxin aerolysin, or manage to culture the bug. And so far not one eye specialist has been able to respond usefully to the concept of an anaerobic infection of the vitreous. Which for some reason stays in relatively low numbers. They cause some eye damage, but not much. Best theory for why being, in anaerobic mode they don't 'like' to switch back to oxygen-based metabolism, so swim away from oxygen-diffusion gradients. Ie the away from near the retina. Also for energy efficiency there'd be no point in the bacterium producing a cell-killing toxin in an anaerobic environment, since normally in such environments there are unlikely to be any cells nearby. Luckily for me. There is some glucose in the vitreous though, enough to keep some of the buggers alive.Now here's the freaky bit.* Aeromonas bacteria are 1.0 to 3.0 µm in length, and "motile by a polar flagellum."* Human retinal cone cell diameter varies from 0.5 to 4.0 µm. (Smaller sizes are in the fovea.)Who here can guess what the result of that is? Go on, guess. See if something is obvious to you, with a bit of basic optics and physics knowledge.I expect some of you will know the answer. In contrast to pretty much every doctor and eye specialist I've encountered, unable to comprehend and absolutely blocking out the concept, often with insulting condescension.(With one exception, who had heard of it before.)

author: jordanp123
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 03:20:23 pm
content: As with dealing with any profession I've dealt with doctors that I thought were good, well meaning people and ones that saw dollar signs and din't seem to care wether I fell down the flight of stairs on the way out. I think you may want to consider another doctor.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 03:29:47 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on April 17, 2018, 04:10:17 amOn the one hand yes, on the other I've also had doctors willing to be quite patient in explaining why they didn't think certain diagnoses were likely and open to alternative treatments.QuoteYeah, but I don't blame it on the doctor.QuoteFind a different doctor, especially if they can't find a cause they need to be open to suggestion ... they've already proven that they too are out of their depth.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 10:16:33 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on April 17, 2018, 04:10:17 amI was exposed to massive mold or something at a house where the basement heating ducts ran UNDER the cement floor slab. Once ground water leaked into them, it created a witch's brew.I had sinus trouble all my life, and had been using over the counter stuff and just getting along OK. But, that exposure just set me off, and I had REAL trouble, like migraine headache level stuff. So, I went to a doctor, and he was really sure he was looking at some kind of classical migraine. But, he DID listen (he was a sinus sufferer, too, so had personal experience). So, I convinced him that I knew what I was talking about, at least to an extent, and so he agreed to treat it like allergy/sinus rather than migraine. (I was rather old at that point to just suddenly turn up with migraine for the first time.) Well, it took a LONG time to recover from that mess, but some stuff I was doing, plus the stuff the doctor gave me slowly fixed it. It was at least 5 years where just any sort of thing could set me off and I'd be up half the night with a pounding headache. But, after that, I just haven't had the big pain stuff.Now, when I see this doctor, he listens to me and treats me at least as an "educated consumer", and we get whatever the problem is solved pretty well.Jon

author: medical-nerd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 08:58:52 am
content: HiyaSay I am a marine lab researcher with a complex bit of test equipment that is essential for my work. It has an intermittent fault that needs investigating but otherwise is a 'black box' to me the researcher.I take it to a recognised test and repair facility and then tell them I have looked on the internet and have the solution to the problem, why aren't you looking at all these forums? Why do you insist on following a fault diagnostic pathway when I have told you what is wrong.How would you like it?Cheers

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 09:24:10 am
content: Gentlemen,what part of"Tip: Internet..."was not clear ?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 11:44:35 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on April 18, 2018, 09:24:10 amNone of it? It's rather open to interpretation without any further clarification. I thought the engineering type tended to be more specific.

author: medical-nerd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 01:28:17 pm
content: HiyaQuote from: Electro Detective on April 18, 2018, 09:24:10 amThe internet is full of false and misunderstood information - it is not suitable formostself-diagnoses. Audiophools are lambasted but the same applies to medical misinformation.The internet is useful in medical matters when you know what you are looking for and need further information. Application of this for diagnosis and treatment requires that you can critically assess the information and apply it in a specific context and understand/recognise the possible ramifications and complications that can then ensue. There are reasons for Specialist/Expert/Technician/Layman designations in any field of study. Medicine is such a wide area that people can fulfil all these designations in different areas and this should be recognised by the general public.There are very good sites run by associations for specific diseases and conditions but the internet not a replacement for medical advice/investigation/diagnosis/treatment and should not be used as such.So what part of "Tip: Internet..." is not clear - the fact that it is wrong.Cheers

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 01:41:56 pm
content: That's how it works.

author: GerryBags
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 02:25:23 pm
content: I've got CRPS, complex regional pain syndrome. It used to be called RSD, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if you hadn't heard of it; most doctors, GPs anyway, haven't either. It took about a year and a half to finally get diagnosed. It's like the most intermittent, spooky fault you can imagine, affecting every system but in hard to identify ways.I got lucky, relatively, in the end and saw a rheumatologist who had previous experience of the condition and she confirmed it with a three phase bone scan which showed the pitting in the bone which is apparently a dead giveaway. Even then, as there is no cure and not much that can be done to mitigate the condition once three months have passed the specialists sort of.... gave up and palmed me of on to clueless GPs who have just kept handing out the opiates.So, to finally make a point, no, I don't have much luck dealing with the medical profession, although I kind of get why. Who would want to spend much time on an aspect of their job which they can do nothing much about? It would be like keeping a shitty old scope barely going by changing the fuse and filter caps every week, while never being able to fix the part which is actually causing all the problems, like an obsolete proprietary ASIC. How long would it take to get bored of that? Any sane person would ditch the 'scope.As for GPs, bugger their luck, too. Mostly, they do a cracking job working out which of a million or so potential problems is afflicting you and getting you in touch with someone who can fix it.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 09:30:42 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on April 18, 2018, 01:41:56 pmand this is why with the"Tip: Internet"you can confirm what the deal is, and or change quacks if they are peddling halfassed 'show me the money' scare tactic BStill you score someone with medical knowledge and expertise to set you right or at least give you the factsOr.. you can be a sucker and suffer on and off, going to the same quack show till you cash out poor, sick and suffering,and or WORSE.. burden others with your 'unexplained freaky condition'Where your health is concerned,Ignorance Is NOT Bliss...

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 07:03:54 pm
content: Lucky for me, SWMBO is a medical assistant for our GP, who is also a family friend. I get real answers and real results and if she can't help, she will tell me who to go see that she trusts.