More cheap equipment videos please! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MarkDennehy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 10:34:20 pm
content: I know, I know,"cheap equipment"is a bit of a loose definitionAllow me to waffle on for a second...I'm thinking over the EEVBlog videos I've enjoyed the most and in particular the ones I've watched more than once - andalmostall of them have one thing in common, and that's that they are about equipment that hobbyists and tinkerers can use in home labs and workshops, within the kind of budgets that don't lead to marital strife. So the $100 and $50 multimeter shootouts, the reviews of the Rigol 1052e and 1054z and the instek 1000b series scopes, the analog oscilloscope videos (andespeciallyDave's hunting-through-ebay-for-a-$50-oscilloscope video), and so on.So how about a Dave Challenge?QuoteHell, it's a fairly fertile field for content -- you could do a whole series of those and link it back to the original how-to-equip-a-decent-lab video. You could show what you think a decent hobbyist lab should have; where to get it; what's a ripoff price and what's a fair price; and even the kind of thing you'd use it for. It'd be a definitive guide to getting started in electronics in one handy series of videos...(that budget might need tweaking for some bits of kit like DSOs... but hey, that's an implementation detail)

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 10:48:27 pm
content: I second your suggestion, Mark. Although inexpensive, new equipment is certainly good to know about for budget hobby use, more information about older, and often better, used equipment would serve the community well, not to mention keep vintage equipment out of landfills.Such a series could be approached as separate tracks for new and used gear. Alternatively, an episode could focus on a single instrument regardless of age to compare and contrast the features, pros and cons, suitability for various uses (RF, uC, analog/power, etc.). For example, $150 DMMs: here are the new models, here are some good used ones, here's why the new ones are better and why the old ones are better, this is what you should watch out for when buying used, etc.

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 02:55:10 am
content: HiJust to be clear ... we're taking about *good* videos on *cheap* equipment and not "cheap videos". I would hate for anybody to get confusedThe gotcha with a lot of this stuff is that there is good low cost gear out there, but not a lot of it. There is a lot of bad low cost gear on the market. Sorting out the good from the bad is a major undertaking. If you figure a week to get into a gizmo and find it's faults (or the work arounds), you could spend a lot of time digging into this and that. Making it even worse, if you have to buy this stuff, it's cost prohibitive. If you rely on people to send you demo units, guess which ones they most want to send you? The ones that aren't moving off the shelves fast enough ... hmmm .... I wonder why?I do agree with the idea. I'd also mention that the "cheap scope" videos are what brought me here. I'm just not sure how many of them one can afford to do ....Bob

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 03:21:35 am
content: Be careful this doesnt become another equipment for sake of having a cool lab.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/what-did-you-buy-today-post-your-latest-purchase!/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/what-have-you-bought-lately-that's-cheap-cool/

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 03:23:40 am
content: I make it a rule to avoid anything that has aQuestionableComponents sticker on the back, then it doesn't leave me with a wide variety to choose from.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 03:48:27 am
content: I'm going to be unpopular and vote against this idea. Look inside anything that's under $100, and it's just going to be a green FR4 board with a few jellybean components. Absolutely nothing fascinating about it at all. I'm sure Dave would make a song and dance if a really good quality $100 AWG appeared on the market. This is not a thing that exists, so there is no such video. Best not to try to make a video when there's no subject that deserves the attention! Maybe I stand to be corrected.Also, it's strange that you mention the 1052e and 1054z scopes on your list of reasons that sub-$100 videos are good. Sorry to state the obvious, but the 1054z is not sub-$100.So I know and respect that I am only one vote, but I choose to use that vote as a "No"!

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 04:13:14 am
content: Quote from: rs20 on January 31, 2016, 03:48:27 amCorrect, although I don't think that was the OP's intent. My understanding of his point was to get more coverage of entry-level equipment, not that it all had to be under $100.

author: MarkDennehy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 10:11:14 am
content: Quote from: rs20 on January 31, 2016, 03:48:27 amSee the last lineYes, you can't have a $100 DSO worth having; but there are cheap DSOs worth having like the rigols. The idea is to have a "cheap X" video rather than a "midrange X" video.(And maybe the teardown wouldn't be fascinating, but this stuff is interesting because of what you can build with it rather than because of the fun someone else had buidling it)

author: MarkDennehy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 11:08:47 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 31, 2016, 10:58:58 amBesides, the idea might catch his imaginationGetting to have an impact on current and future hobbyists, influencing the equipping of labs everywhere (how many labs do you think have cheap $50 analog 'scopes because of one drivetime rant?) -- that's got to be an interesting idea at some level...

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 12:10:45 pm
content: Well I don't know about this one, from what I have seen some who are used to XXXX standard equipment can on occasion be somewhat harsh in criticism when giving an opinion on XX rated gear, for the majority of reviews a comparison is made against other equipment of either a lesser or greater standard, rarely do we see a couple of products that are so closely matched that it is difficult to pick between them, some devices may incorporate a particular function or feature that is relevant or appealing to a confined group, others may declare that the feature is complete garbage and a waste of space, there is no be all and end all that I ever saw.The individual sets the benchmark based on their needs and budget and if we only ever purchased products promoted by someone elses opinion then I would be seriously concerned about a global shortage of steak knives, furthermore Dave knows to leave some meat on the bone for others and there are literally dozens of other people doing video teardowns and reviews on products and most of these are pretty damn good, if not for the reviews then for the people.I'm on the fence on this one, ouch I hate barbed wire.

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 03:36:12 pm
content: HiOk, there is indeed the very basic point that what is "cheap" on a DVM is a stupid price point on a brand new spectrum analyzer. If you do an absolute dollar constraint, this gets silly. If you instead take it as a target (get as close to $100 as you can) that's a very different thing. A 1054Z is not a $50 to $100 scope. Restricting yourself to "only under $100" would immediately rule it out. It also would rule out ever other newly made (as opposed to surplus) bench top scope on the market. That leaves you with the "plug this into your phone" scopes and the like. There is very little value in sorting that stuff out to find the one that is only marginally less crap than the rest. The real bottom line is - don't buy any of them.So in that (rather long winded, sorry about that) context:In each category of useful gear, how much do you have to spend to get out of the "utter garbage" category? It may be $30 in one area and $300 in another. That's fine. State that up front. Look at the stuff starting at the $300 level and go up to the point you have a reasonable population. That might be $450 in one category. It might be $310 in another. Answer the basic question of: "what do you need to spend and why?" How you accomplish that without also trashing a whole bunch of lower priced gear - not so clear. I don't think that a full analysis of why this or that is junk really does a lot of good. Others may disagree ....Bob

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 03:56:51 pm
content: Electronics is an area where exponential growth in the rate technology improves has become the norm.which leads a lot of amazing values that push the curve forward in some way we all can use. With test equipment, it makes sense that as most test gear now is basically a computer with specialized hardware for data aquisition, it makes a lot of sense to combine multiple instruments in one from a cost perspective, as the silicon is cheap, its the hardware around it (and especially the software and support for it) thats expensive. So there are a lot of things going on there with lots of potential for new ways of doing them.The fact that silicon (or similar things) is so cheap at the chip level is like magic, that means that "amazing" value in electronics happens a lot and its usually when somebody effectively leverages those economics of scale in more of an "integrated" fashion to measure or do things that previously took a bunch more hardware or time/skill to accomplish, and were out of reach for that reason,We know spectacular values when we see them!That's I'm sure a big part of what makes electronics products reviewing a fun job for people like Dave.But that skill - recognizing true value needs contextual knowledge to develop in people.When I think of EEVBLOG, I think this site is literally one of the best sites in that respect.Way out ahead of the curve.Dave is basically a mentor to the world here, and he's doing a good job at that.If he did a poll, building skill at learning to recognize value is I'm sure the one of the top reasons for coming here at the beginning for people who end up becoming part of the community.Communities where truth is valued highly - and where debunking BS products and hype happens, are super important now, because people have less and less time, and at the same time, vendors are aggressively following scripts to create fake user communities and fake user trust, fake "truth" and so given the two changes, real truth is harder to find now than in the past and discerning truth from BS still requires taking the time to learn an area more than superficially.But to get back on topic, spectacularly good values need to be recognized and become successful, to keep electronics a growing, living, vital field by reducing the cost of entry and the liklihood of a new person developing real knowledge. They are an important part of the process.All of what I said above applies to Daves existing videos and forums pretty well. It doesn't have to change at all.That said, sure, I would like to see a subforum for "amazing values" but only if that forum can be quick to the point of rudeness to jump on and tear apart hype that's represented as "amazing values" when they aren't.I would also like to see a subforum on stuff like motion control, sensors, robotics and automation. Making things move and or respond to the environment.There are a few areas that arent covered so well here and if they were it would be valuable.Things that interface with computers "physical computing" - generally could use more coverage perhaps. Unless it is already covered somewhere and I just haven't found it.Also, for all the interest in ham radio I think RF is a technical topic, that needs a forum but that non-technical ham radio is more of a social topic and maybe should be a separate area under chat.

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 05:49:49 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 31, 2016, 03:56:51 pmHiThere's the gotcha.A simple device almost by definition will have tradeoff's.My Tek 2465B has way more bandwidth than my Rigol DS1054Z. (there are also cost and new / old differences ... ignore them for now). The Tek is not going to do any sort of automated I2C decode. Somebody who's main focus is protocol debugging will not be happy with the 2465. Somebody who *needs* to see that couple of hundred MHz artifact will not fall in love with the 1054. There are numerous examples in threads all over here where people have gotten into these sort of head butting arguments. It rarely seems to go well.....A purchase decision (or a recommendation) will always have limitations on it. The question is never, "can you find a nit to pick?". The issue is "does this represent value?". We all (yes very much including me) tend to swing quickly to the nits and the value estimation gets lost in all the yelling. It to a great extent is why many of us have .... errr ... more than one .. piece of gear around the lab. A device that fills a common void can be a value proposition all by it's self.Bob

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 03:45:18 pm
content: Buying working, high quality old equipment can be a really smart move for many people. If you know what you are doing. But many don't unfortunately. Thats one of many reasons why a community like this is very valuable.Hypotheses for the immediate future. To get customers excited, vendors will increasingly need to break rules and offer spectacular value.