Will Liquid Metal Batteries replace lithium-ion batteries in cars?  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 09:01:16 pm
content: MIT Professor Sadoway has been working on liquid metal batteries for the past decade. In a talk in May of 2020 he's saying these could replace lithium-ion batteries currently used in EV cars. Sadoway is saying it solves the cooling issues lithium-ion batteries have so they don't explode. Liquid metal batteries come in at a lower price point and now capacity fade. These batteries will outlast lithium-ion batteries by many decades.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 09:32:15 pm
content: He's trying to replace lithium ion batteries in grid level storage, not cars. The liquid metal batteries he has been working on are totally unsuitable for applications that need a light, compact battery pack that can be left for longish periods, and will spring to life at the press of a button. However, if they work out well, they could be much better than current ways of doing grid storage.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 09:41:40 pm
content: Did you listen to the video? He's not saying cars are the application primary application. But they could and would be far safer than current lithium-ion batteries. For one, it solves the cooling problem which can lead to overheating and fire. He also said it solves the wear problem. These batteries do not degrade with charge/disparage cycles.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 10:27:36 pm
content: I haven't watched the video, but all liquid metal chemistries that I am aware of operate at high temperatures. They have eliminated the problem of cooling lithium chemistries by operating at temperatures that are above the flash point of many materials. They don't have a thermal runaway problem, but will still require heat management and thermal isolation and have potential safety issues in crashes. If the technology in the video is what I believe it to be they seem to have a relatively robust solution to the crash issues, but nothing changes the operating temperature.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 10:35:16 pm
content: You are the one who started off referring to EVs. Did you listen to the video. He specifically talks about how his type of battery is completely unsuitable for mobile applications, as the liquids would slosh around. As I said, if these things work out they could be the future for grid storage.He quotes the cost of the famous Australian Tesla grid battery at over 500 dollars per kWh. Damn that's expensive for anything beyond very short term storage.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 10:41:40 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on July 26, 2020, 10:27:36 pmHe claims to have the temp issue solved. He claims his battery will work in a Antarctic and in the Sahara desert. He said the issue they are having has something to do with the temperatures and a ceramic seal.In a TED talk he stated should be a product by 2019/2020. I’m just trying to get an update as to things are going. Do you know if he’s still just 2 or 3 years away from finding a solution?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 10:44:56 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on July 26, 2020, 10:35:16 pmI will have to listen again. I thought he said this would be a better solution that the Li-ION batteries we have not because there’s not need for liquid cooling. And there’s no chance of explosion if the battery overheats. I may have heard him wrong. But that’s what I remember him saying.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 05:05:12 am
content: I don't have time or bandwidth to watch the whole video. But based on the photo in the frame it is a high temperature liquid metal battery. These batteries don't have a thermal runaway problem. The don't explode when hot. And with enough insulation will work in the arctic. Working in the desert is easier, less insulation required. Last I saw they thought they had the seal problem sorted. Apparently they have hit a speed bump. As others have said they look promising for grid storage. Not so much for EVs, though some fleet vehicle applications might make sense. The fundamental problem is thermal losses from the operating temperature. The larger the battery the better.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 04:50:37 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on July 27, 2020, 05:05:12 amThanks for the info. Guess it's like power from nuclear fusion. It looks very promising and would change our world. We are close, but don't quite have it figured out yet. If this were easy, someone would have figured this out decades ago. Let's hope they figure it out.Sadoway mentioned they could be used in cars. But you are right, the primary application is large stationary storage to supplement wind and solar. He's one smart guy.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2020, 04:43:27 pm
content: A similar concept (high temperature battery, but not liquid) was used in the Bollore bluecar, and has been a massive failure, due to the energy needed to maintain the battery at temperature. It's just too wasteful and impractical to be useful in a car, except for some very very specific use cases.Grid storage is more likely to be useful., because of the lower cost, and better scaling of the insulation for big capacities. Perhaps long haul trucks could be an edge case with marginal useful scale?High delta-T thermals are not at he right scale in a car, be it for ICE or for hot batteries.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2020, 04:51:05 pm
content: There were early tests with sodium - sulfur batteries for cars, but the heating needed was a problem and they were dropped after NiMH got better and Li-Ion got in sight. They are still used for grid storage. Including EV is kind of confusing and adds only more problems.