A new arrival at the Factory 400 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 02:09:28 am
content: Sometimes - an EE lab needs some heavy hardware. With the money I saved after winning the Keysight 'Test To Impress' contest - I purchased (financed) a number of other things. Like a new CNC milling machine to round out the capabilities.This is fun. A whole factory in a garage. A bit tight, but it works and I cannot beat the commute.https://youtu.be/Ls82wasotFU

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 03:55:28 am
content: Jealous!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 05:51:25 am
content: Impressive. Most impressive.If I'm ever in your neighbourhood - I'll have to drop in! (But not for too long)

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 09:46:04 am
content: That's awesome - but I'm curious. Why a mill and not a 3d printer?

author: ChrisLX200
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 09:50:46 am
content: An impressive machine! How will it be earning its keep?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 10:02:04 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on November 19, 2017, 09:46:04 amWhy would you invest in a rapidly evolving and hugely expensive technology when you have a proven technology that produces excellent parts?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 10:18:20 am
content: I understand if you don't like talking numbers, but I would love to know a ballpark figure what something like that costs to purchase and run.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 10:29:40 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on November 19, 2017, 09:46:04 am3D printers which can make production quality parts are way more expensive than an excellent mill. And they are much slower as well.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 01:20:48 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on November 19, 2017, 02:09:28 amVery very nice rx8, and very good video, love the enthusiasmCan easily understand the joy of peeling the plastic of the screen/keyboardBest of luck with the business!

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 05:22:29 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on November 19, 2017, 09:46:04 am3D printers are cool and fun for plastic, low volume, poor surface finish parts with no fine features like threads. The machines that can do metal start at a higher (significantly higher) cost, and still have the limitations of being extremely slow, poor surface finish, and inabillity to deal with any reasonable precision. Critical surfaces will have to be post machined and threads cut on a traditional CNC mill in the end.3D printing has made huge gains, but still MILES from replacing a mill for hi precision parts made in quantities greater than a dozen.Quote from: ChrisLX200 on November 19, 2017, 09:50:46 amThis machine has 3 missions:Make my production parts - usually in small batches of around 25pcs.Work through prototypes and concepts synchronized with my scheduleMake tools and fixtures for assemblyThe 'production parts' is kinda funny and a big reason I purchased this machine. My business is too small to be considered production by other shops, so I get lumped into prototyping job shops. This is expensive and very slow. Veeeeerrrrryyyy slow.Prototyping should always (IMHO) be integrated with engineering because that is when many of the secret problems are revealed. When I personally machine a part - I start noticing problems as soon as I begin programming and setup. Little tiny details that can save time, make the part stronger, recognizing tolerancing issues with the design, etc. Some of my designs may function just fine, but require difficult tolerances to be held which is a big disadvantage when producing the parts. I can change the design as I am machining it and get immediate feedback about how well the changes are working or if they are messing something else up.Tools and fixtures are remarkably critical to my success. I am constantly needing 1-off parts to hold, align, sort, repair, etc. all sorts of things. SMT tape holders, Arbor press fixtures for thread inserts, special crimpers, PCB holders for my oven. All of those need metal parts machined with considerable precision so they are not an option for 3D printing. Tools and fixtures equal SPEED and QUALITY for me. With the right assembly tools, I can assemble faster and with greater finished quality. For example, a snap-on cover for an LCD screen made out our Delrin is a great way to prevent damage to the fresh screen while the assembly is being handled. Very simple things make a big difference.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 10:45:59 pm
content: Couldn't agree more with you and also of course, there's only one person to blame when things don't go according to plan which even speeds things up because you don't have to endure the blame culture, just grin and get on with it, well done you. The big downside is, and it can be a real big one this, yes you don't cant beat the commute each day, but then you will find that you will working all kinds of hours that most people would not put up with. The reason being that the work is always there, the pressure to meet deadlines etc increases tenfold when you work for yourself and at home. You need to have discipline for it to work effectively.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 10:57:21 pm
content: @rx8pilot: First of all I like the style of your videos. IMHO you have a talent for it just like Dave has.More on-topic.. I definitely see the advantages of being able to do a lot of stuff yourself at your own place. I've spend the last couple of days in the shed milling & drilling to put some (very low volume) products together. Still I'd like to keep the manual labour stuff to a minimum. I'm an engineer and not a worker at a manufacturing plant so if I can outsource then I outsource. I usually have 50 lasercut front panels made even if I only need 10 immediately.

author: Mickster
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 11:26:40 pm
content: Thanks for the great video, following on from the first three.I have just moved house and have a tinkering garage for the first time, which is located beneath the house, so should be nice and cool in the summer.When I saw your first few Factory 400TMvideos, I thought "Damn, that guy has a lot of space, albeit crowded"Got the tape measure out today and found I have about the same square footage.Just need to find a way to produce the funds, to fit it out with all the nice kit that we all drool over.I'm pleased that you are producing these videos and, as stated already, you have a knack for them, please keep it up.Best wishes for your future endeavors.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 12:02:24 am
content: Quote from: Specmaster on November 19, 2017, 10:45:59 pm1k posts! Cool.Time management is easily the biggest challenge. Overall, I have worked out a sustainable approach although it is still too many hours. Sometimes - I just turn off the lights and leave. Consequences be damned.My little business peaked at about 13-14 employees and we had about 6k square feet of space - I became a manager at that point. I learned that we needed commodity products or I needed to shrink if I wanted to do the specialty stuff. At least at the time, business was really unstable. Over the last few years, I have been able to stabilize and get some more predictible work. Now, I am not sure I want to go back to having a full size business. Small is good for the life I am after. It does have some serious drawbacks, but I think I can put a cork in those issues over the next few months. If successful - I should have some time to live life a little. I want time more than I want money.Quote from: Mickster on November 19, 2017, 11:26:40 pmWhen I started this current iteration of the business - I had ZERO money. Negative, in fact, with some non-trival debt. Just as I was going to shut the whole thing down and get a day job - I purchased a Rigol scope with a credit card and got crackin' on a new product. Sold a few, purchased little bits, here and there.....soldiering, microscope, SMT oven, shelves, etc.etc. I really wanted this to work and spent nights and weekends manually assembling PCB's to earn enough money to buy more gear. Each purchase has been critically examined to be a money generating item - every single piece. Lot's of eBay too buying fixer-uppers like my pick and place - that baby took 6 months to revive into a working system. One of the big turning points was winning the big scope from Keysight. That event provided a stunning opportunity for me to jump into a whole new level of electronics that have more commercial value. I chased a few jobs and got them because I had the gear to make it happen. Of course, I spent countless hours studying high speed digital design and experimenting. I built a few new designs that are making money so I decided to round out the capability with the new CNC machine. The Keysight scope win is directly tied to the expansion of my skills and business. A stunning stroke of luck that I hope will make all those that helped proud.I already spent 10 years owning and operating a few CNC machines, so this project does not have much of a learning curve. With that said, starting from scratch is an insane amount of details and decisions. The machine is the big part that is easy to see, but the little bits and pieces are what makes it useful.With all that said - it starts with tinkering and a desire to do something cool. If it is not obvious - I love what I do and especially love learning new things. It took years to build up a marketable set of skills and equipment commercially but remember I sold relative trinkets in the beginning to make some tracks.Quote from: nctnico on November 19, 2017, 10:57:21 pmFor sure - I fully expect to use the milling maching to make a pilot run while I outsource a larger batch than I want to make in the garage. All machine shops are too slow for me and when I give them mroe time - the price goes down. Also - if I mill the first 50-100 parts I can optimize the design and approach to manufacturing so the outsources parts are streamlined for production.

author: Mickster
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 01:04:28 am
content: I'm relatively new around these parts, so please forgive me for not knowing your history.From what I have seen of your input here, it appears to be very positive and straight to the point, which I like to see.For those of us who do not know, could you elaborate a little on the type of products you will be making in Factory 400TMplease?Kind regards.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 01:54:24 am
content: Why a new machine and not a used one ?..and what did it cost ?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 02:36:10 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 20, 2017, 01:54:24 amI looked at the whole range of options - from the low-end of Tormach and a Chinese company called Skyfire. Too many limitations to count on for a paycheck. I looked at a bunch of used machines as well and actually got pretty close to buying one that was close by. In the end - I was very interested in the latest updates that Haas has introduced in the last year or so. For a long time, they only offer small incremental improvements, but the latest models did a bit better than that.The control is all new which was sorely needed. I spent 10 years with what they now call the 'Classic Control' and it was like a time machine going back to 1985. The new one has all the same buttons and the basic operation has not changed, but they added a pile of productivity features in networking, ability to embed graphics and video in the program to help set up the machine.They also just recently started offering some excellent hardware upgrades for this model - 15,000rpm, 15hp, much better enclosure and door to keep coolant inside, a mist collector keeps the whole shop from being covered in oily coolant residue, chip auger improvements to get the chips out automatically, much better lighting, and some others. Those upgrades all add up to a faster machine that requires less of my time.On top of that - they were offering great deals and fantastic financing. They were able to deliver in 2 weeks, set it up and come by next week for advanced training on the new features and macro programming. All in all, it was a fairly easy choice. I needed it to work the minute it was delivered without any excuses. A used machine can go either way. I purchased a used Haas VF3 in 2012 and missed a few things during the inspection.The machine itself was about $60k - about $20k of that is options/delivery/tax. Then another $20k for all the other bits and pieces. I had the option of going considerably lower cost, but as the purchase price goes down and the tooling gets cheaper - I spend more time with the machine and the end quality will suffer. I tried early on to 'be cheap' and it almost always cost me $10 when I 'saved' $1 on something - missed deadlines, missed jobs, lost weekends and family vacations. The reality of a machine shop is that the fun never really stops...you are always short something or breaking tools. Special measuring devices can eat your lunch too - but you have to have them.On this one - I went with a loaded machine and excellent tooling and workholding with the intention of setting up and making parts fast.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 03:12:47 am
content: Time is money.I was also curious as to the difference between the Minimill and the Super Minimill - so I checked out the Haas site. The parameters that stood out to me was double the movement speed and a significant increase in cutting speed. As well was increased spindle power and maximum speed - but reduced torque(?).Again ... Time is money.I am also a fan of an intimate development cycle. Keeping it small and cross-discipline allows just what you have described - where integrated adjustments happen in unison, taking into consideration all the parameters - from front panel layout to every corner of the product.... all just mooshing around in one skull.I had the same philosophy in software development. By having control from end-to-end, you could manage the whole process and ensure every decision was considered in context for an optimum result for the end user - and quickly. I have also experienced the "vertical integration" method - and while this compartmentalised approach does offer a high level of expertise within each compartment - the communication between them is painful, slow and required inordinate effort to ensure what was passed was complete, accurate and unambiguous. In short, it was the perfect place to wash your hands in a stuff-up.I look forward to more from Factory 400

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 03:25:10 am
content: Thanks for the video. You are obviously a person dedicated to success and won't stop until you achieve your goals.I salute you.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 05:19:44 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on November 20, 2017, 03:12:47 amThe *Super* part of the minimill is indeed about speed - the movement is faster, faster tool changes, faster spindle speed, and higher horsepower. The overall speed that one can make parts can never be faster than the slowest part of the system. Many people think that they get a fast machine and they will automatically gain productivity - this is not entirely true. You cannot be fast without a fast machine but a fast machine is only one of many elements. For example, if you put me in the fastest Indy car ever developed - I still won't win the race. In fact, I would probably crash.The entire system has to be efficient. The tools, the tool holders, the workholding (vises and part clamps), the programming, order of operations, coolant system, and a thousand other parameters all add up to production speed. In my case, it is not about making massive numbers of parts. It is more about minimizing how much of my time it takes to make a small number of parts. In reality - the machine will only run about 10 days per month but I intend to get 20 days of parts in that amount of time.The machine features that add efficiency are sometimes not nearly as flashy as horsepower and travel speeds. Like the new filter that keeps the chips out of the coolant - that saves PILES of time manually maintaining the coolant. The electronic probes that automatically gauge the parts and tools not only save a pile of time, but they ensure the first very part is usually perfect. With traditional methods, a 2-3 of the first parts were scrapped as the machinist guessed their way through the setup. The ability to run programs directly from the network is awesome - I just up from my computer and the program is already in the machine ready to press the GO button. The mist collector saves huge amounts of time cleaning up coolant as well as keeping me from having to breathe it in all day.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 06:28:23 am
content: All those extra tasks can, indeed, add to the production time - but I've seen one or two instances where people have looked at the basic specs, aimed high and then cheaped out on the options only to cuss later.You would seem to have done your homework quite thoroughly - and for the impact on your Balance Sheet, you can't afford not to be. I bet now you're just hoping there hasn't been something you missed. (Sorry)Quote from: rx8pilot on November 20, 2017, 05:19:44 amI shudder to think of the mess it would make in such a small area without it.We anxiously await video of this mini beast in action...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 12:16:50 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on November 20, 2017, 02:36:10 amI was expecting more - I've seen a lot of Haas stuff on NYC CNC's channel & it looks very nice, though from what I can see, they seem to do a lot of "pay us to unlock an existing function" type stuff.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 12:23:09 pm
content: Really nice setup you have there.I also had expected more $ for that.But I guess the pressure form the china competition has reduced prices for every manufacturer, at least to a certain level.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 05:45:11 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 20, 2017, 12:16:50 pmHaas is the Honda Civic of machine tool manufacturers - they make a pretty decent product that will get you were you need to go. They are far from the fastest, heaviest, best....but they are affordable. Perhaps the it's fair to say they are they low end of the high-end which likely accounts for their extraordinary success. They are really a great bang for the buck.The Super Mini Mill is very close to the lowest cost machine they offer too - it is really small for most shops. Still, it can deal with just about any material you put in there but as the material gets harder, the speed diminishes below industrial needs pretty quick. 99% of what I do is small aluminum parts so this machine rips through that VERY fast. I still have the ability to make special 1-off steel tools for assembly when needed.They still do the software locks on a lot of critical features which is annoying, but the base price is so low I understand. Until very recently, turning on Ethernet was $1500! Now it is included. The 'Super' models include some software options. I got the Renishaw probing system that also unlocks some important features as part of the package. The only software option I directly paid for was a feature they call 'High-Speed Machining' which is an algorithm that processes the G-code further ahead and matches it to the motion control. It allows very fine steps to be taken while still moving very fast. This is important for advanced roughing movements that are constructed of very short line segments as well as 3D surfacing.If you added every available option on a Haas machine, you would find that it is still about half the cost of Okuma, Kitamura, or Mori DMG of similar size. The justification of those higher-end brands is their ability to cut tougher material, better accuracy, faster (in most cases), generally tougher machines.I love the NYC CNC channel - John is always willing to show the audience when he makes a mistake which (in my opinion) is even more important than just seeing the successes. A great resource for sure.Quote from: HighVoltage on November 20, 2017, 12:23:09 pmI don't think Chinese pressure has much to do with Haas pricing. They sell a HUGE number of machines in China so they can make cheap parts. Only very recently has there been any machines coming from China and they are all obscure and not well known. When Haas started, they just made rotary tables and I believe that was because Gene Haas was baffled by the cost of the industrial options of the day. So he made his own.....then a mill.....then a lathe.....the rest is history. He has always focused on keeping the cost under control. Partly by design and partly by the method of manufacturing. I took a tour of the factory a number of years ago - stunningly efficient. Every second is critically planned and nothing is wasted. Rather impressive.

author: Mickster
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 12:26:04 am
content: +1 for John @ NYC CNC.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 12:51:39 am
content: Haas is looked down upon by some people working with the high end stuff, but I don't think they're the ones paying for the machines they work withAnyone can brag with daddy's car.It's nice to have the option to do steel, even if it's slower than it ideally would be.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 01:45:55 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 21, 2017, 12:51:39 amThere is no question that some like to brag about how heavy their iron is. Like you said - when the business owner is also a machinist - Haas looks pretty damn good. Even if you are doing heavy materials, they have bigger models including horizontal 50 taper machines than can cut anything currently known to man-kind. Still, When you have a Ferrari you brag about it even when tootling around town at 35mph.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 03:49:52 am
content: Wow that's totally awesome! Must be neat to own something that you'd normally only find in a big factory/company. It's cool that the company helped install it and all too.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 04:15:14 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on November 21, 2017, 03:49:52 amThis is pretty much de rigueur for machine tools of this size and up.This way they know everything is set up correctly, that all the parts arrived safely and that it all starts and runs as per specs.The cost of sending a guy is probably the same as the hours of phone calls they might have to deal with otherwise

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 04:28:36 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on November 21, 2017, 04:15:14 amYeah, sending a guy is probably a lot cheaper than dealing with unhappy customers who simply won't admit they ruined something they didn't understand. And how could they know?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2017, 05:31:11 pm
content: After 4 days of configuration, organization, calibration, testing......the beast is ready for prime time.I started with a fairly simple part the was previously machined on a 5 axis. I had to make new fixtures, re-program it and machine all 6 sides of the part. This was a good starting point to get the whole system setup and running since it really pushed all the buttons of the system. The biggest problem now is the compressed air system. How do you build a quiet and reliable air system that provides continuous dry, clean, and oil-free air for nearly no money? That is apparently my next party.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2017, 06:49:02 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on November 21, 2017, 03:49:52 amI'm sure they charge for that....

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2017, 06:55:54 pm
content: Air is simple, you look at local auctions for a screw or other oilless compressor with low hours, and for a PSA drier for it as well, and then get a reservoir if you do not want to have the screw running all the time. You might find a used unit that is a lot bigger than what you need, but generally those run fine with lower loads.A good tip is to look for spray shops on auction or closing down, as there they tend to have oilless compressors, or at least the whole regular compressor with the drier and oil separators along the line, plus a decent flow rate as well, just because spray painting a vehicle with dirty or wet air is a very quick way to lose money in rework and fish eyes from moisture and mist. looked at the one next door to me, and that is one nice compressor, plus it is also variable speed for constant pressure, plus it is damn quiet as well.As you have 3 phase supply ( because you have the NC machine, doubt any are single phase at that size) power is not going to be much of a problem, aside from those weird US specific 3 phase variants because of the split phase supplies common in the USA.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2017, 07:47:54 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 22, 2017, 06:49:02 pmIt is not out of kindness, the cost is embedded. I have to say - it is very nice to have the piece of mind. There is a rigging technician, install technician, and an applications technician that come on separate days that basically guarantee you are up and running. I called yesterday asking about what seems to be excessive spindle noise and a maintenance tech is here right now looking into it (under warranty). We just learned that a recent design change deleted the soundproofing that was previously on all the spindles. Guessing a bean counter saw the $20 savings and took it at the expense of doubling the sound pressure level. Nuts.Quote from: SeanB on November 22, 2017, 06:55:54 pmI wish it was that simple.....A have owned and installed numerous compressed air systems up to 20hp rotaries. I have to balance cost, physical size, reliability, CFM, duty cycle, noise, power requirements, maintenance, and single point of failure considerations. In this case - I only have enough 3ph power to deal with the CNC itself (with some headroom). My primary power is 1ph and using a Phase Perfect digital 3ph converter.My 20hp Ingersoll Rand screw compressor was VERY expensive in all respects - power and maintenance. It also ran continuously and just loaded and unloaded the pump as needed. I replaced that one with a brand new variable speed Atlas Copco 10hp with an integrated dryer. That one seemed to be pretty awesome and they told me it only generates the air you need, bla, bla, bla.... What they did not tell me is that it has a minimum duty cycle which we did not meet much of the time. 2 years later....the pump seized because there was a whole bunch of water in the oil. Fortunately - that was right after I sold it. Still - the regular service on that one was very pricey.The smaller 3hp single phase ones are still $4500 just for the compressor - still need a dryer and filters. Blows my weak budget.Used ones are sketchy in the reliability metric since so few people properly maintain them and they are nearly impossible to inspect beyond the basics. If I have a single compressor - it is a single point of failure that has the potential to shut me down for days.Piston compressors are very loud and generally put a lot of oil and water in the air. The ones big enough to keep up are bigger than I have space for and sound like a squadron of B17's on a strafing run.I have an unconventional solution brewing that can meet my strange circumstances of low-budget, noise, available power, size, reliability, CFM, and clean/dry/filtered air. We will know sometime next week.

author: ChrisLX200
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 22, 2017, 07:59:54 pm
content: Can you not place the compressor outside the building (in a soundproof housing to avoid irritating neighbours) and just pipe the air in to where it's needed?

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2017, 08:03:55 pm
content: One of my customers just had a BOGE Rotary Screw Compressor installed.It is speed regulated and under normal usage it runs very slow and you can have a conversation, standing next to it.Absolutely fascinating machine.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2017, 08:22:38 pm
content: Quote from: ChrisLX200 on November 22, 2017, 07:59:54 pmI am definitely considering that approach at the moment. The upside is that I can put it right next to the electrical panel and save the very valuable space in the 'factory'. The downside is that it is a couple of days of DIY to get it worked out a settled. My interim plan has the system on a cart. I can work through various details inside the shop where it is easy to see and access. If it works well - I can add the enclosure and roll it outside to free up space. I am close to desperate to get back to normal business operations, so taking the absolute minimum approach is my only real option.Quote from: HighVoltage on November 22, 2017, 08:03:55 pmThose things are pretty nice indeed. Truly amazing how quiet they are while compressing a lot of air. I wish I had the money to go down that route. Getting the CNC up to this point has put me at the end of my financial options until I generate some revenue. Stuck with DIY and cheap-o options. If I can cobble together a system that gets me a year of trouble free operation - I would be happy.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2017, 08:41:23 pm
content: Don't put a piston compressor in your shop. Considering the size it is, it will drive you nuts.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2017, 09:05:01 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 22, 2017, 08:41:23 pmNo doubt about it. With my current restrictions of time and money.....choices are limited. The first effort will get some laughs, but I have one customer/job that needs to be completed very soon. They don't care how annoyed I may be from noise -Step 1: Earn some moneyStep 2: Fix all the things I had to cobble patch together in pursuit of Step 1Step 3: Make a video of the carnage for the enjoyment of all that watchIt's the classic small business party of balancing stupid restrictive limitations to get to where you hope to be.

author: Kilo Tango
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2017, 09:30:15 pm
content: Hydrovane compressors are pretty quiet. They last fairly well, although I don't know if many are available in the US.Ken

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2017, 09:36:20 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on November 22, 2017, 09:05:01 pmI'm painfully aware of the situation, but the noise can be bothersome to the point of interfering with operations. I've seen work stall in a room whenever the piston compressor kicked in. I will go through some lengths to avoid having that situation again.

author: khs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2017, 09:47:07 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 22, 2017, 09:36:20 pmEarplugs may help.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2017, 10:10:19 pm
content: Haas decided to save a couple of $ and eliminated the soundproofing on the spindle - taking it from 'loud' to 'ear-splitting'. Earplugs or my noise canceling bluetooth headphones are mandatory until I can make some sound baffles for the spindle housing.I did not think my biggest issues right out of the gate would be compressed air and noise. Need to be designing some PCB's right now.Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 22, 2017, 09:36:20 pmStay tuned for my unconventional approach to deal with noise(and other piston compressor issues). I am planning a 1 year solution with a path toward upgrades while keeping cost, noise, and personal effort down from the beginning.

author: BillyD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2017, 12:05:21 am
content: Great project. Really enjoyed your videos, well done.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2017, 12:35:47 am
content: Quote from: khs on November 22, 2017, 09:47:07 pmEarplugs and sign language

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2017, 12:42:05 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 23, 2017, 12:35:47 amPretty much....the price of progress :-)

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2017, 12:56:49 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on November 22, 2017, 10:10:19 pmHanging some curtains?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2017, 01:14:41 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on November 23, 2017, 12:56:49 amAll I will promise is that I will post a video even if I crash and burn on this one.Design goals:Low costHigh reliabilityTolerable sound levelsminimal footprintFinal delivered air MUST be dry and cleanI know, I know.....low cost/high reliability = hilarious.Anyone is welcome to laugh out loud but be prepared to eat your words

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2017, 01:21:21 am
content: Your creativity and resourcefulness leads me to intrigue - not laughter.We wait with bated breath.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2017, 11:09:50 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on November 23, 2017, 01:14:41 amBunch of cylinders trucked round to someone with a compressor ?

author: CM800
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2017, 11:33:26 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 23, 2017, 11:09:50 amPressurised canister of liquid nitrogen with a compressor fitting on the end?

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2017, 12:45:55 pm
content: Quote from: CM800 on November 23, 2017, 11:33:26 amThat is .... Actually not as stupid as it sounds!Pressurised dewar with a sufficiently large vaporiser coil, quiet, dry and clean, and LN2 refills on a reasonably large dewar are not actually particularly expensive.Regards, Dan.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2017, 07:45:19 pm
content: For some fun, I did some napkin calcs based on using N2 cylinders. It may be a budget buster in exchange for total silence.A 125ft2 bottle would last roughly an hour. Each bottle is $35 to fill locally. So an 8hr day is $280 worth of nitrogen. Yikes.An N2 generator? $$$Short and misplld from my mobile......

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2017, 08:04:12 pm
content: Did you get a price for just plain clean dry air?It's not like you NEED the pure N2

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2017, 08:17:47 pm
content: Nope....just N2 because the price was listed on the website of a local supplier. Perhaps SCUBA would cost less per fill, but the bottles and 3000psi regulators are not trivial.Either way....bottled anything is silent and expensive.Short and misplld from my mobile......

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2017, 08:40:02 pm
content: Ah, but you were pricing N2 gas, try it again with liquid nitrogen, a hundred litres or so of N2(liquid) is a LOT of gas when you warm it up, even at a few bar.LN2 has a density of ~800g per Litre, N2 gas at STP has a density of 1.25g per litre so 1L of LN2 makes 640 litres of gas at STP, or 64L of gas @ 10 Bar.Most of the costs at these small volumes are actually service charges, N2 as liquid is cheaper then water in some places if you buy it in industrial quantities.Not going to be cheaper then air from a good quality screw compressor, but it will probably have lower capex.You will want a dewar designed for pressurised delivery and some sort of heat exchanger to boil the liquid.regards, Dan.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2017, 09:25:24 pm
content: Wow....well beyond my capability. Guessing the setup would be far beyond my budget even if the LN was free for life.My previous shop neighbor had a huge LN system. Every so often, an 18 wheeler would show up to top it off. The fog coming from the fittings was neat .... but I may guess that seeing that at my house may raise some eyebrows. Kinda fun to think about a response .... building a time machine out of a Delorean maybe?Short and misplld from my mobile......

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2017, 11:52:13 pm
content: I'm wondering how the city sees this, and the home insurance?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2017, 12:06:28 am
content: There are no specific restrictions here that prevent the installation of a CNC mill. We do not generate any hazardous materials or create any safety issues. The electric is high-end heavy industrial. I am even adding additional soundproofing to eliminate even a slight hum from the neighbors. We are double insured by the homeowner policy as well as the commercial business policy. Both have full knowledge of the equipment involved.The biggest limitation is that we can't get away with employees. That is partially because of parking and partially because I don't want the house to be open to an employee. Otherwise, I am totally above board on all city rules, codes, regulations, laws, etcMy guess is that if this became common, the city would go crazy. Since this is such an obscure corner case, there is little attention. I am subtle and quiet, planning to keep a very low profile.Short and misplld from my mobile......