Testing a new model of camera and a question for the forum from Fraser - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 11:18:22 am
content: Dear fellow thermal imaging fans,I am testing a brand new camera design at the moment.The makers of the Uncooled radiometric camera have decided to be very honest about the settling time of the core before it reaches thermal equilibrium and provides its most accurate measurements. In order to tell the user that the camera is still coming up to thermal equilibrium, the manufacturer has placed an initialisation period warning and countdown timer at the top of the screen. The timer period is approx 3 minutes.From a users perspective I personally do not like this countdown ‘banner’ and would be interested in forum members views on this as I may be just fussy ! The idea behind the count down timer is honesty and the desire to tell the user that measurements are not as accurate as they could be until the timer ends. I applaud this move but I have not seen such a clear warning on an Uncooled camera before. It is however common on cooled cameras.FLIR cameras take a different approach to the temperature stabilisation issue. The E4 uses the Tilde (~) symbol next to any temperature reading until thermal equilibrium is reached. This is less obvious and distracting to the user but serves as a warning that the measurement is not yet at its most accurate.So my question for you dear forum friends is how would you want a thermal camera to tell you that it is ‘warming up’ and not yet providing its most accurate measurements ?Ideas I have are the Tilde symbol next to measurements or a relatively discrete icon in the corner of the screen to warn that the warm up period is ongoing. A countdown can be distracting !Some users are less interested in measurement accuracy and so just want the camera up and running as quickly as possible. The camera I am testing does boot quickly but this banner appears a little too intrusive for my liking.All thoughts gratefully receivedFraser

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 11:49:02 am
content: Hi Fraser,First, I am forever grateful to this forum for the E4 hack, and much of your input. It really had a profound effect on my work, just an absolute invaluable tool now.I swear by the "battery level" bar graph, as I can't afford to run out of power unexpectedly, and am often somewhere with no easy power source. I can at least plan.With the E4, even though I don't "normally" require precise temps, I do need to know that temp drifts / repeat-ability is accurate ! With the fast settling time, waiting a few secs is no bother ... BUT IF it was a much longer time period, with no indication of how long I had to wait, it would be a disaster in many of my uses, especially if I'm doing time trial readings etc. A numeric value is probably distracting, as you suggest, but I would have to have something like .. possibly the battery level graph .. along the top? out of the way.If it didn't represent some sort of time-to-ready graph / value, it would be a complete no-show for me.

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 12:13:29 pm
content: I would hate it.But I don't do inspections. What would be less intrusive is for the camera to not block any fov but just give a warning when taking an image: "correct measurements available in 2:03" etc.So you can use the camera to look where ever you need to and find points of interest. And after a little bit, go back and take a few measurements. If it needs to be more intrusive, the camera could just take jpgs instead of radiometric images in the warm up time for example.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 12:18:53 pm
content: Maybe a small countdown digital clock in a corner of the screen rather than a banner ? Would that be more user friendly ?Fraser

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 01:28:32 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser... or switchable between a small UN-obstructive go/no-go icon and a count-down time display ... again not excessively obtrusive. Best of both worlds !?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 01:45:15 pm
content: I have added a pollFraser

author: ir.ukrm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 02:11:13 pm
content: This is a very necessary topic. When I do an inspection of houses with a thermal imager, after switching on, I must wait until the tilde icon goes away. At the same time, the owner of the house asks why I am starting to measure anything, I have to explain that the camera is not ready yet, show the tilde, and wait until it disappears. If there is a return report, it will be clearly visible when to start the examination. Another good would be a sound signal.

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 04:52:13 pm
content: I have an E8 and the ~ is fine.If I had a free choice, I'd have a circle / rectangle in the same position as the ~ that gradually changes colour before disappearing. A bit like a pie chart slowly (or quickly!) changing as the 'countdown' progresses. It should be obvious enough to see how things are progressing without the real estate of a countdown timer itself.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 04:58:11 pm
content: A ~ next to the temp, and a small countdown timer next to it that can be enabled/disabled in settings.Definitely not a big banner that would obstruct the view, often you don't even care that much about absolute temp but more about a relative between objects and you can already get that while the sensor is settling.

author: agiorgitis
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 06:58:30 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on April 06, 2020, 12:18:53 pmA slowly flashing banner on top middle:-----------Warming up------03:00-----Temperature readings not stabilized-And the use of ~ icon just like flir.Because many times when I open the camera for a quick measurement, I don't care if it's 73.5 or 75.8 or 72.1. I just want to see an approximate temperature of my oven, for example.If I want to have exact reading, I'll have to wait.But don't stop me from using the camera in the meantime

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 06:58:56 pm
content: How about a progress bar just a couple of pixels wide? It would indicate visually that the camera hadn't yet fully stabilised, but would be less intrusive and distracting than a counter with numbers.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 03:18:00 am
content: I like the Tilde method. I would stick with something like that next to the temp. Then make it so you can click on the Tilde to see the countdown timer if so desired. I wouldn't want the timer on-screen at all times.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 05:21:01 am
content: There are many reasons to want a time to go indication. A simple bar or pie chart need not be terribly distracting. A large banner prevents you from doing useful setup prior to the actual measurements. A setup choice lets each user satisfy their own requirements (and change when requirements change).

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 11:56:04 am
content: Thanks to all who votedI had hoped for more votes to give a clear indication of user preferences but I guess people are busy at the momentI have enough to work with and some excellent comments though.Thank youFraser

author: Chanc3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 09:38:05 pm
content: Hi FraserI hope it isn't too late to provide some input. As you can imagine, I've had a chance to use a wide range of cameras on many different sorts of applications. We also provide a fair amount of training and this is indeed a crucial point that we have to stress to our students. Whilst some cameras do have a small symbol, it would certianly be more beneficial if there would be a larger or clearer means to inform the user that the camera isn't ready. A user defined option would be the best, but ultimately, there should always be a small symbol on the screen, even for the pros.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 09:53:09 pm
content: Chanc3,Many thanks for the comment and it was not too lateI agree, there needs to be a clear indication that measurements will not be reliable until the camera indicates that it is ready. In a way it is little different to cooled cameras warning that they are in the cool-down phase after being switched on. The difference is that a cooled camera cannot produce a useful image until the cool-down is completed.I will be testing the thermal camera that has the warning banner to see how it’s measurements stabilise over the warm-up period as thankfully it still provides a thermal image and spot measurementsI am in discussion with the manufacturer about the best way to display the Warm-up period. The camera may be used in Fever detection so there may well be a need fir a very clear waning banner but I have suggested an option in the setup to configure the camera for medical and non-medical use. The non-medical setup can have a less intrusive warning.Fraser

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 03:06:48 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 06, 2020, 06:58:56 pmI agree with this principle, but how about turning it on its head? Start with an 'inaccuracy' bar that slowly disappears. Arrange it on the screen so it's obvious how much it has shrunk - maybe something like this?Whether a delta is the right symbol is another matter. The symbol should disappear entirely once the warmup has elapsed.Importantly, it should be possible to select whether the marker appears at all, and whether it appears on saved images.