Brymen vs bench top multimeter - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: robdejonge
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2023, 01:26:55 am
content: Many years ago I bought a $5 meter 'just so I had one'.Then I got into playing with electronics and to get a 'decent' meter I got a Holdpeak HP-770D. It did the job for a few years, but it has been behaving oddly of late and I've decided to just get it out of the way and buy "a serious meter". I landed on Brymen, and picked the BM867s model for its insane value for money.While browsing 'similar price' multimeters on the shop I'm buying from, I saw the Owon XDM2041. And then I saw the UNI-T UT8804E which would be a real splurge but does really look the part without becoming silly for a hobbyist like me.I've always wanted a bench top multimeter. But the depth is just a real challenge. I'm lucky enough to have carved out a space as a dedicated bench, but it's only 60cm deep and these things are massive. Shelves overhead can't accommodate. So I'd have this great big honking meter on the main surface ... and I'm just wondering .... is that the right decision?!?I've always liked (reading and getting) the feedback of this forum, so I thought I'd throw this out there and ask you guys what you think about such a decision. When to get a bench top, how valuable bench top space is, etc.(Although my main point is above, also welcome comments comparing those exact meters. As an aside, I did look at the XDM1041 / 1241 a long time ago but for some reason decided not to get it even though the form factor would be ideal for my setup. There was something about it I didn't like, although I can't recall what it was.)Thanks all!(update: is it maybe that "you get a bench top meter only when you want to be able to do 4-probe measuring"?)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2023, 03:06:58 am
content: Quote from: robdejonge on March 27, 2023, 01:26:55 amI vote "no".

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2023, 05:34:23 am
content: What do you need it for?There are bench multimeters that do not have 4W resistance measurements.Bench multimeter is a form factor.They mostly work with external power so no need for batteries.- that is good because if you work a lot you will use a lot of batteries otherwise. Or battery will die when you need it.- that is bad because you need electricity for it to work, where you work.There are bench meters that have high precision.- if you don't need higher precision or 4W ohms than it doesn't matter.You can put them on the shelf so you clear up desk space..- If you can't put it out of your way, than it will take more space.If I were you I would rather buy an LCR meter, like DER-EE DE-5000, if you don't have one. You already have excellent meter that is more than enough for professional work. And LCR meter is a very useful instrument, for instance. Just another meter that will give you nothing new is not something useful.Sometimes few cheap meters are also useful when you need to measure several things at the same time. etc etc..This is just one of those questions where people are not sure what to do. And truth is nobody can decide for you. Everybody have some limitation on resources (money, desk space, number of equipment before their wife divorces them etc.), different needs (some work on this some on that, and some people simply collect T&M equipment instead of stamps) and wishes (everybody wishes 8.5 digit handheld multimeters with 0.001% error LCR meter built in. Or 4 GHz scopes. While in reality, DER-EE DE-5000, BM867 and 1000 series AWG and 1000 series scope from Siglent or Rigol are good enough for lots of pro work).So any time you have an itch to buy any new piece of T&M equipment (or tool or something) ask yourself:- Do I NEED it? As in: I cannot repair this because I need to measure this and none of my instruments can do it.- Would it help if I had one? As in: If I had this it would save me time when I repair this and that. And since I do that a lot...- Can I afford it? Will money I give for it be worth it in some way (whatever that means. Some people buy expensive cars because they simply like it, not really need it..) Will I use it enough for it to be worth it? Or shall I just borrow or rent something occasionally..- Do I have resources needed to use it? As in: space on desk, space in a shop, water, electricity etc etc.

author: robdejonge
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2023, 07:31:09 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on March 27, 2023, 05:34:23 amI don't need that level of precision. I was just wondering if that is the main reason people opt for bench meters.Quote from: 2N3055 on March 27, 2023, 05:34:23 amYou mean the Holdpeak? It was fine when it worked, but I've grown frustrated with it.Quote from: 2N3055 on March 27, 2023, 05:34:23 amThis is a fair comment. I was merely asking for thoughts though, as sometimes others will offer arguments I would never have thought of myself. Or, in this case, where specific models were listed, that might have triggered some comments. In the end, you're right, I'll always have to make the decision myself. But I take your point that it might be too vague a question. Or maybe even too specific, maybe I should have asked "what are the arguments for/against bench top, in general?"Appreciate you taking the time to write up the response. Thank you.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2023, 07:47:44 am
content: Quote from: robdejonge on March 27, 2023, 07:31:09 amI have a Keithley 2015 and a few Keithley 197 bench meters.4W ohms for measuring small resistances is the only thing I ever use in my bench meters that my handheld meters really can’t do. I almost never need extra precision. While it’s very… gutturally satisfying to see 230V measured to the millivolt, nothing I have ever done actuallyrequiresanything of the sort.Another thing I love about the Keithley 2015 is its speed: it’s just insanely fast. For most things, you’re simply never waiting for the reading to settle. Put the probes on a voltage source and the voltage reading is just… there, before your eyes have even had time to refocus on its display. Again, in no waynecessary, it’s just nice. The 197 is much more ordinary, with 3 readings per second, similar to most handheld meters.The last thing that I really like about the K2015 is the display. As a vacuum fluorescent display, it’s just easier to read than an LCD.And of course, the other advantage of a bench meter is that it can justbe thereout of the way, yet ready to use. I don’t have to grab and stand up a handheld meter, and the buttons let me operate it with one hand (unlike the knobs on many handhelds). But for this you have to have the space for it. My bench is 90cm deep, and even with that it feels cramped!

author: robdejonge
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2023, 08:32:14 am
content: Some good points in there, @tooki ... thanks for the response.

author: donlisms
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 02:04:34 am
content: I don't know if this will help; it's what I did.My bench is 60cm deep. My shelves are the posts-and-adjustable-wire-shelf variety, 30cm deep. I didn't want them covering half the bench, and I didn't want them far away, taking up so much room behind the bench. The solution was... half and half.With a little creative assembly, the front posts are shorter and sit on the bench, and the back posts sit on the floor. The depth of the shelves is split between the bench and the floor; the bench has to be pulled away from the wall a little.The things on the shelves do not get in the way. Bench DMM's fit fine - it's okay if they hang off the front of the shelf a few cm; no harm is done.Best of all, I could buy all the shelf parts, instead of adding another construction project to the Todo list!

author: GigaJoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 03:06:59 am
content: stand for my handheld ; wide triangle, to avoid fell off , really like it , high should be enough to hook by rear arm of multimeter , it fixed by tape , and width enough to avoid falling on side

author: robdejonge
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 04:47:48 am
content: For my specific setup, with a work space just 60cm deep and shelves just 25cm deep, no real bench meter seems to be workable. Just 10cm above my workspace floats a 13cm-deep shelf on which I sit things like my scope and quick access tools. I love that setup as it clears the surface but keeps things nearby.For that small shelf, I thought the Owon XDM1041 would make a perfect solution. Nothing like a real bench meter, but looks a bit more 'in place' than a handheld meter in that setup. But call me OCD, the oddities covered by many of this meter when it first came out (1-2 years ago?) still seem to not have been addressed in firmware updates and so I just decided to steer clear of it.So, decided on getting the Brymen in the end.Thanks all for the comments.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 06:20:16 pm
content: (waves)I'm in nearly the same boat. Although I bought the BM235 already.I still want a bench meter. The OWON's look like the right budget. However I have made that mistake with scopes twice too many.I don't need a "I paid $3500 reference" meter. I don't even think I need a "I paid $350 for second hand reference" meter. I wouldn't know how to test it was accurate. Chicken and egg.Why a bench meter? The opposite reasons to "Why handheld.". It can't move. It doesnt have batteries. It's always there and it's never just powering off on you to save battery.However. For what I could spend on a "Brand" bench meter, such as a Siglent circa $800 I could get 4 Owons.That actually appeals to me more. There are DC things I'd love not to waste a scope channel on.I think the only non-basic features I'd say were a must is statistics. Max,Min,Mean,Hz,Duty stuff in small print measure or by button if it must.UART/USB/Serial do-dah would be nice, but I bought that option on all three bench supplies and I think I tested only one of them. I found the other two BT modules in the parts bin. It's not that the one I tested was bad, the Tenma, you could set it to CSV output and it would run it's values out at about 10Hz or something. That's actually quite useful. It would also accept parameter changes, allowing for "remove control" from an MCU.Part of me just wants a strip of bare bones volt meters with mini-hook-clips hanging in a row on the bench shelf. Maybe not the $4 LED volt meters, but I'm still looking for middle ground. Mend-it-mark has tempted me to go retro with actual swinging analogue gauages.... shame it's one range per gaugeBut ... no. I like my digital and I like my software features and color LCD screens. I'd take that over a 5th digit decimal on volts (10uV).The other option is to buy 6 $20 hand held meters and hang them from their stands on a wire. Playing servant to their power saving would not be much fun.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 08:05:10 pm
content: Buy the Vicy VC8145 and be done with it.

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 09:25:41 pm
content: I also had the same thoughts, as I equipped my bench. Long story short, I have two bench meters, bought used on ebay in good condition.Advantages of a bench meter, that mattered to me:- no batteries could go bad, empty or leak- no powersaving shutdown- illuminated display, AND no powersaving 15 seconds or so for no illumination again- higher precision for same price- stackableI ended up with a Fluke 8600a and Fluke 45, which are more than good enough for what I am measuring. Of course, with some drawbacks, like no autoranging on the 8600a, but when you know what you are doing, autoranging in lots of cases is not needed.I personally would try not to get those fancy bench meters below 200 $/€ - in most cases they are simply handhelds fitted in a case and then sold as "bench", so you get only the better power supply.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 09:34:26 pm
content: Quote from: nightfire on April 06, 2023, 09:25:41 pmWhy not? Your reasoning makes absolutely no sense to me. In the end not having to swap batteries and being able to leave it on all day is a major comfort improvement well worth the money. For bench use I'd take any bench meter with a power cord over any handheld just for the comfort. I could not care less about what is inside; I want the bench functionality.

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 09:44:48 pm
content: The value of those cheap bench meters is... IMHO not very good. Here some used buy for nearly the same money will probably provide better value.I got my Fluke 45 (calibrated) for 250 Euros, and have a reliable instrument.But yes, I agree- when bench function and lack of batteries is the prime aim, then those cheap bench meters will fit the bill.But as a good quality DMM is available, I would consider it as a waste of money to buy for similar money some bench DMM with significantly poorer performance.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 09:50:56 pm
content: Quote from: nightfire on April 06, 2023, 09:44:48 pmBut that is the kicker: the VC8145 has more features, better accuracy for AC true RMS compared to the Fluke 45. And after a decade of sitting on my bench it is still bang-on because it is built around a good quality voltage reference. It is a fallacy to think the old meters are somehow better. They are not. Extremely outdated is the term I'd use. I have fallen into the trap thinking that old equipment is somehow better one time too many and kept my eyes open since then. When I look for test equipment I dig deep into the specs & reviews and think long & hard about what actually brings me value for my money.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 10:55:09 pm
content: If I buy a bench DMM it would cost many times the Brymen. I don't think i want bench DMM which costs about the same a Brymen.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 11:28:27 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on April 06, 2023, 10:55:09 pmYou know that is like saying you prefer to use a bicycle because if you'd buy a car, you'd buy a Ferrari sports car (which actually isn't practicle for daily use).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 11:36:48 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on April 06, 2023, 10:55:09 pmHorse for courses !Precision or convenience are in vastly different budgets.

author: robdejonge
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 01:23:35 am
content: Quote from: paulca on April 06, 2023, 06:20:16 pmI've often considered building this myself, for when you have multiple spots in a circuit to monitor and resolution is not really a big deal. I'm glad to find I am not the only one thinking these crazy thoughts!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 01:34:58 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 06, 2023, 09:50:56 pmThe VC8145 has no uA range.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 01:59:10 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 07, 2023, 01:34:58 amThat you certainly will need for any modern uP project.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 09:09:26 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 07, 2023, 01:34:58 amActually it has but it is called 'mA range' that goes down to 1uA resolution.Quote from: tautech on April 07, 2023, 01:59:10 amA low end DMM is pretty much useless. Hint: burden voltageYou'll need a specialist device to measure current going into low power devices in order to measure the current peaks correctly.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 09:31:06 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 07, 2023, 09:09:26 amAgreed however for something that only wakes occasionally measurements of quiescent consumption are as important as anything else.If real low that Joulescope would be the way to go.

author: RAPo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 12:12:18 pm
content: Is there any way you can try a bench meter for a while?I have an Owon XDM2041 but guess what: I use my handheld meters more often, just a tad more flexibility.Did you have a look at Aneng AN999S? Very compact, needs 5.3 inches of depth and gives you music.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 01:11:03 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 06, 2023, 11:28:27 pmNot what I said. For the money that about the price of the Brymen meter I would choose the Brymen not a bench meter. So yes I would choose the bicycle rather than a car that cost the same as the bicycle. But typical car price isn't the same as a bicycle nor a a typical bench meter is the same as the handheld meter.For the money of the Brymen which I assume less than $400 I don't think one can buy an new decent bench meter for that. I don't think the OP meant to get a used one. Yes a Brymen in that price is a very good meter.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 02:19:23 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on April 07, 2023, 01:11:03 pmIf you want the bench DMM to do the same as the unspecified Brymen, you certainly can buy an equivalent bench DMM for a similar price. As you said: the lower end bench DMMs offer the same functionality as a handheld but then in a flat box with a power cord. I don't see why that is less or less desirable. Not having to deal with batteries is a major advantage to me. I have gotten rid of all handhelds (but one) a long time ago.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 02:41:47 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 07, 2023, 02:19:23 pmA lot of themarehandhelds in a box - it's all air inside.Quote from: nctnico on April 07, 2023, 02:19:23 pmBench space.Portability.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 03:40:43 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 07, 2023, 02:41:47 pmThat is the case for any piece of modern test equipment. Just look at Dave's teardown videos. Even high end oscilloscopes consist of a single board nowadays.QuoteWhen working behind a bench, you don't need portability. And on my bench a bench DMM takes less space than a handheld because the bench DMMs are stacked on top of other equipment and not lying around, cluttering the work area like handhelds do.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 04:11:27 pm
content: There is the UNI-T UT 800 series meters. They are fairly small FF benchtop meters that have carry handles and will run off mains or batteries. I have a UT804. Nothing to write home about.But being Uni-T, there will be no support.https://instruments.uni-trend.com/US-EN/multimeters/1238.html

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 04:40:56 pm
content: If Brymen made a BM869S in desktop version with mains power that would be interesting...

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 11:57:53 pm
content: Handhelds on the bench can have some very good uses, such as to get the display right next to your face when you're probing deep inside!If you're a measurement animal, then there are some specific things certain bench DMMs can offer that can really make a difference, such as a bright and fast display with lots of statistics, nice buttons, front/rear switch (Kelvin test leads can go back there), and of course lots of options to suit various conditions, such as NPLC or different averaging modes.Does the average hobbyist NEED any of those? Not really.There is a bit of disconnect between folks who are not able or willing to spend the money, versus those who can or decide to spend their money differently.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 03:27:22 am
content: Quote from: J-R on April 07, 2023, 11:57:53 pmA bench meter with a Hold function is much more valuable, especially when it can capture 8 successive measurements.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 03:38:24 am
content: Quote from: J-R on April 07, 2023, 11:57:53 pmGet one of those talking Anengs for that, it reads the values to you as you measure.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 11:34:44 am
content: Throwing a spanner on top of the preverbial battery. I have a use case for testing not only things like solar panels, charge controllers etc, but also multi cell batteries.The multi-cell battery problem is, I grant a bit unfair. Nobody is going to hook a 6 series battery up to 7 individual voltmeters. Thankfully there is specialist hardware ... also with varying price, accuracy and quality. I have said hardware, but it's old, crap, under-rated (3 digit) and needs up graded. Until this morning my most advanced BMS was a "Turnigy" LiPo field charge monitor (allows you to charge/discharge multi cell packs from a basic charger while it monitors and balances the cells). The "cheap" ones are usually 3 digit. The really cheap ones the accuracy is a coin toss. The slightly less cheap ones will all over-read consistently, nanny state. It's the tricky part of finding the ones which have open firmware, schematics and reviews highlighting it can be calibrated properly... at at least 4 ideally 5 digit cell voltages, at least 8 of them, but I'll not turn down 16 channels.On the bench testing a "nano" scale low power solar project with a single LiPo cell, I ended up with some really janky measuring apparatus to be able to read all the various currents and voltages. Things like:Using a PSU as a voltmeter by setting it to 0 A current limit.Using a DC Load as a voltmeter by setting it to 0 Ohms.Using an INA3321 3 channel shunt monitor module an MCU and a TFT. (not very low power though!)It's at those times having a little row of cheap 4 digit meters would be handy.This morning I got 2 JK-BMS boards. I haven't tested them yet, but they are meant to be the mutts nuts for the purpose of monitoring (and maintaining) multicell packs.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 01:59:13 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on April 08, 2023, 11:34:44 amGo to the Aneng shop and get some! Screw them to a piece of wood and you get a multimultimeter.I expect a new thread with pics when it's done.PS: Aneng usually include really bad probes in their $10 price range but they sell probes in their shop, too. You can get much better ones for a couple of $$.https://aneng.aliexpress.com/store/group/ANENG-Accessories-and-others/919484_516409721.html