CHMT48VB is up and running! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 03:34:37 pm
content: I can afford either, but I would like to eventually upgrade to a superior system. However, for the moment I am bouncing between these two machines.The basic question is one significantly superior than the other? I would get the full NWE setup with the VP-2500DP, so it would have more capacity than the Charmhigh unit.Reliability/durability is my main concern. I need something that can be setup and then just work. Either machine would fit all components I use, though the Charmhigh just barely, so no switching component reels for different boards, just when the spool runs dry.I hear mixed reviews on the Charmhigh unit, but I see very little about the Small SMT offering either way, other than Small SMT seems to be active on the forum here.I need to order this by tomorrow, so any quick opinions are greatly appreciated!

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 03:48:59 pm
content: I would pick the Charmhigh machine as it's simply a better known quantity, I more-or-less know what to expect from it.I doubt any of machines in this price bracket will "just work", that is what you're saving on when you choose these machines over more expensive ones like T560P4 with CL feeders.

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 03:59:49 pm
content: Hi,why don't choose VP-2500D-CL22https://www.smallsmt.biz/vision-placer-budget-pick-and-place-machine/It's a little cheaper but has the flexibility of using CL feeder on North side.- 22x8mm CL feeder slots on north- 26x 8mm push feeder West- 26x 8mm push feeder EastI can't speak about charmhigh because don't know well but our machine has US support and fully flexible software for all placement situations.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 04:15:03 pm
content: We will be upgrading the machine when we move into a new facility next year, so I do want to keep the cost as low as possible, as this machine will end up as a prototype/backup machine in 12 months.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 04:16:59 pm
content: @SmallsmtWhat is the lead time for the VP-2500DP-WNE?Minimum feeder requirements:8mm x4512mm x1016mm x1024mm x3 **I could live without the 24mm feeders if needed.

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2020, 11:57:59 am
content: I think lead time is around 3 to 4 weeks now.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2020, 04:42:31 pm
content: I ended up pulling the trigger on the Charmhigh unit.The US re-seller for the SMT did add $1500 onto the price, but then also added 25% as a "tariff" charge, even though the US is NOT charging tariffs on PnP machines. The price ended up being double that of the Charmhigh unit, instead of 40% more.

author: up8051
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 09:46:26 pm
content: Before you buy Charmhigh watch this video:

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 01:26:13 pm
content: Quote from: up8051 on June 19, 2020, 09:46:26 pmWhat's funny is his previous pnp was also Charmhigh and it worked well.

author: up8051
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 04:47:43 pm
content: The main problem is how Charmhigh reacted to reporting defects.

author: zerohimself
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 01:00:00 am
content: I've got a 560p4 on the way. After seeing unexpected makers video of the rough time he's had, i'm seriously second guessing my purchase. But I already pulled the trigger, all I can do now is hope and pray, and address any issues that pop up. I'm hoping for the best.I can leave some feedback once mine arrives and we get it going.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 04:15:44 pm
content: Already had the feeders delivered for my Charmhigh unit. Expecting the main delivery this week.Hopefully I get a good unit, or can get through any issues quickly, but I used PayPal just in case I have an issue with a defective unit that the company doesn't want to work with me on...

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 09:55:40 am
content: Pray a lot, You just bought Chinese crap

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 09:50:17 pm
content: Got it setup today, enough to do a "hello world" run of a total of 4 resistors on a PCB.Once I figured out the UI and some of the Chinglish translation attempts, I think I have a basic idea of how this machine operates.I still haven't done any builds from a .csv file, just made a simple pick program right from the PnP machine itself. Actually, it's handy and quick to do; perfect for prototyping smaller PCBs.I have it turned down the the minimum run speed of 50%, but I wish I could cut that in half. The folks who buy these machines aren't looking to make 10k widgets a day, we just need to reliably and accurately place components on PCBs. The CPH rating isn't the bottle neck in the operation... I'd rather it be slower and reliable than fast and screw up. You can turn each feeder's tape advance and actual pickup down to 1% though, and I found that 5% is too slow for anything but something huge (far slower than needed for passives or other small components).I can see me wanting to buy at least 4-5 extra tape advance solenoid pin things to keep on the shelf, as I see those getting damaged here and there.

author: shanekent
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 04:44:49 am
content: Quote from: Rat_Patrol on June 29, 2020, 09:50:17 pmI'm happy to hear that you've gotten your CHMT48VB up and running! I've had mine since February this year, so let me know if you're having any trouble and I might be able to lend a hand!With regards to generating a build from a .CSV file: definitely check out the WorkFile Converter tool that is floating around out there. It has allowed me to quickly generate a workfile for designs with >200 components in under a minute or two just by using my normal PnP outputs from Altium!-S

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 12:41:30 pm
content: Quote from: shanekent on July 02, 2020, 04:44:49 amCan you please describe your experience with machine in a bit more details? What kind of parts are you placing? Specifically I'm curious if it can place 0402, even if slowly. I got some boards with about 100 0402 parts which I'd like to automate, so I don't care about speed, but I do need to make sure they are placed "good enough" for reflow.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 02:28:53 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on July 02, 2020, 12:41:30 pmSo far, after learning the UI, all I've done is manually make build files on the machine for testing. I've been 3D printing 7" spools to transfer my components onto to feed the machine, and otherwise settings up the machine's work station this week. I also need to work on a 3D printed custom IC tray.I'm placing no smaller than 0805/SOT23, but I feel 0402 could be pushing it. Even at the minimum speed settings, this machine moves too fast I think. That, or I haven't figured how to slow it down more than the 50% speed in the settings menu. I can't see how you could run the machine at 100% other than bolting it to a concrete alter, it would throw itself off the table! I wish I could get into the stepper settings and change the acceleration values...

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 02:31:00 pm
content: Quote from: shanekent on July 02, 2020, 04:44:49 am2 questions actually:Is there a way to slow the machine down other than the 50% minimum in the setup menu?Do you have a link or search terms for the converter tool? I haven't tried to run a program from a csv file yet.

author: shanekent
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 06:08:41 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on July 02, 2020, 12:41:30 pmGreat question!TL;DR- take your time when calibrating each roll and do as the manual says and you'll be extremely happy with the results.I've been placing a large variety of parts: QFN, SOT, 1210, 0805, 0603, and hundreds of 0402. The smallest/most difficult parts that I've been placing lately are these 0402 LEDshttps://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SML-P13PTT86R/846-1197-1-ND/5355789. Here's a video I took a few weeks back that shows some of this operation:.The BEST suggestions that I can recommend are to install the machine on a really sturdy base and take your time when first calibrating the machine and when calibrating each new reel that you install. I did a run of >100pcs of those boards in that video and only 2 boards needed any components tweaked on it after the machine was done and both times it was caused by issues in with my solder paste.Quote from: Rat_Patrol on July 02, 2020, 02:31:00 pmNo, 50% speed is the minimum speed that the machine can run at. If you're having problems with the quality at that speed, then step back from the machine and judge whether or not there are a lot of vibrations in your setup during motion. Touching on my point above, the BEST thing you can do for this tool is to provide it with an extremely sturdy base.I was able to track down the converter tool after talking with my Charmhigh sales rep for a while and I can't seem to find it anywhere else online at the moment. I've uploaded it to my Google Drive here:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1U27Lk51EJagnwL8bIrRKqXrka7Sw7zPI. Of course, I'm just some dude on the Internet, so run the contents of this ZIP through your favorite Antivirus software before running it for some peace of mind. I might just be abundantly cautiousI can through together a quick video on how to use this software if needed, just let me know!-S

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 06:35:55 pm
content: Quote from: shanekent on July 02, 2020, 06:08:41 pmThanks for your answers and especially for video! I don't have it yet as I'm still trying to justify the expense to mywifeaccountantI work on a board for a client right now, who still hasn't decided if he wants to handle production himself or let me do it, I'm trying to persuade him to work with me as this will make a purchase a no-brainer.Initially I wanted to get some CL-based machine, but after studying the subject I realized I don't really have space for them, nor can I really handle it myself as it's way too heavy for a single person.One more question for you - now that you got a handle on things, approximately how long does it take for you to swap a reel? I get that it's never going to be as quick as CL swap, but I'd like to at least get an idea on the order of magnitude.As for videos - I'd really appreciate if you can make some videos showing typical operations, like setting up and calibrating a reel, setting up fudicials for alignment, setting up a run for panelized boards - basically everyday operations. I've read and watched quite a bit of material about that, but more is always better!Thank you again!

author: shanekent
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 06:42:16 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on July 02, 2020, 06:35:55 pmThis is a hot topic in the world of Charmhigh pick and place machines! I've found that it takes ~5mins to swap a reel plus another 2 or 3 minutes to calibrate the newly installed reel. My recommendation would probably be to buy reels of parts that you know you're going to use a lot of (0.1uF or 10kΩ in 0402 packages) and then keep those reels in their specific reel location for all of your builds. It really helps speed up some time. I buy most of my components from my suppliers in Shenzhen as opposed to Digikey, so that allows me to buy larger quantities. Something to think about!Quote from: asmi on July 02, 2020, 06:35:55 pmI'll definitely consider doing this. I've found the documentation for the CHMT48VB is a little lack luster and while the community support is strong there doesn't seem to be much organized information. I suppose I can help out there!-S

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 07:36:56 pm
content: Quote from: shanekent on July 02, 2020, 06:42:16 pmThat's not nearly as bad as I thought it would be!Quote from: shanekent on July 02, 2020, 06:42:16 pmI already buy most passives on reels at LCSC since they are so cheap, and already accumulated quite a bit of them. My plan is to place the bulk of parts using machine, and place the rest by hands. This way I can minimize amount of reel swaps I need to do, and I've been building boards with 250+ parts manually up until now, so I've become pretty efficient at it. I also have a single part which is 0201 cap (decoupling cap under BGAs as nothing larger fits in there), and something in me is hoping it can place them too (I've seen some videos on YT showing that it can), but I suspect that might be a bit too much to ask from $5k machine. Though even if it would be only somewhat precise - with some manual nudging required - it would be a big plus for me.Quote from: shanekent on July 02, 2020, 06:42:16 pmThank you again for your efforts!

author: shanekent
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 08:10:58 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on July 02, 2020, 07:36:56 pmThis isprobablypossible, but I wouldn't count on it. You will definitely need to get a smaller Juki nozzle than any of the nozzles that come with the machine. You'll likely need to get a Juki 501.-S

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 08:45:45 pm
content: Quote from: shanekent on July 02, 2020, 08:10:58 pmLike I said, even if it will need some nudging into place after placement, it would still be a bug help to me. I have a good vacuum pickup tool, but the nozzle for 0201 is so small that it gets clogged very often.Quote from: shanekent on July 02, 2020, 08:10:58 pmYea that's a given.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 03:36:10 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on July 02, 2020, 06:35:55 pmBe advised that there is NO WAY you are moving the 48VB around with a single person. Even if you could lift the weight (around 150 pounds), its large size makes it too awkward to do w/o risking damage by holding it in a weird position.

author: shanekent
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 09:58:44 pm
content: Quote from: Rat_Patrol on July 03, 2020, 03:36:10 pmI totally agree! I was hopefully that I could move mine around alone, but quickly realized that was not possibleFYI - I've thrown together a quick tutorial on how to use the Workfile Converter tool. Hopefully this is useful to some folks!-S

author: shanekent
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 02:21:28 am
content: One more video for today! In this one I walk through the steps needed to perform a small assembly of a few components on a single board.Let me know if there is anything in particular that you'd like to see and I'll be sure to make a video about that.-S

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 08:12:08 pm
content: Excellent videos! I don't have a Charmhigh but rather a much older Neoden TM240A with no vision. Even so, the converter software & process is very similar, and use the same weird rotations. Useful to see how Charmhigh does it, and uses vision.I note in your first video you mentioned the rotation is automatically increased by 90. I think that is because the default is for feeders from the east positions and compensating rotation against IPC standard footprints. Also noticed you didn't mention the height settings which default to 0.5mm, but should be ideally adjusted for taller parts for more accurate pick and place and avoiding component or nozzle damage.In the second video I noticed you try to place the PCB origin in the centre of the circle, but then have to offset all 3 part coordinated in X by the same amount. I believe the circle is only there because during the machining of the mounting rail they can't cut a square corner with a round tool so instead they cut down like that (a common machining practice). If you place the PCB edge right into that "corner", your alignment of the first PCB should be a bit easier, and assuming your PCBs/panels are all milled pretty consistently you will not have to adjust it for each PCB/panel.I don't have vision on my machine, nor any per stack pick adjustment. I can still manage placement of 0402 parts well enough to save time over hand placement. Some inspection and part nudging is needed even with larger parts I think due to slight pick offsets made worse by rotation.Change over of reels between jobs is the big hassle for me and takes way too long, especially as for some jobs I'm using my stock and for others I am using client stock. Cutting and extracting the tape and cover tape before removal without losing parts, adding or repairing cover tape extenders, double checking you've put reels in the right positions, and so forth. And of course I don't have enough feeder positions for most jobs, especially when loading both sides without a changeover. I guess the part procurement process is actually even worse.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2020, 09:45:10 pm
content: It's taken me a while to get all the feeders loaded and calibrated (life is busy), but I finally ran the first PnP PCB on the 48VB today.It was around 50 components, all 1206 passives. 2 caps were on edge, but everything else was perfect. All of the components were on 8mm plastic tape.Sorry, no pics of the board.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2020, 07:42:27 pm
content: Ran a production board today, first one.The biggest issue so far is the software tool for turning your .csv into the Charmhigh work file has a bug where it automatically rotates every component 90 degrees one way or the other. Kind of a major PITA actually.That is the software tool for your PC anyway, I haven't tried the file converter on the machine. Working on the build file would be SO MUCH NICER on the PC vs using their stupid little touch screen, even with a mouse.Other than that, once I fixed a mis-assigned feeder and a couple rotation inputs that were in error, the machine placed 104 components perfectly.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 08:04:24 am
content: Quote from: Rat_Patrol on July 16, 2020, 07:42:27 pmProbably because 0 degree is usually from front loading position which is same as your footprint usually (components lying flat right to left).

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 09:20:16 am
content: Its a silly thing to do because its making assumptions about your rotation data, it should leave it alone or let you define rotation adjustments for certain parts or packages. Of course if the machine is dumb enough that it needs different rotation numbers based on where the feeder is loaded it should then do that on top of your custom adjustment.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 02:42:12 pm
content: Quote from: Rat_Patrol on July 16, 2020, 07:42:27 pmWhy can't you just write your own program (or script) to do the conversion the way you want? As I understand, machine's job file has pretty simple format.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 05:04:57 pm
content: At some point I may/will write my own script, or have someone do it.Honestly, that isn't my forte, and I don't have time to learn at the moment. Any volunteersActually, my Dad is about to retire from telecom, he works with scripts keeping the servers going. Probably be stupid simple for him to write something up, but I'm not sure exactly what he does.Using the "IC angle compensation" button on the stack tab, I can rotate the angles back 90 degrees (to their starting point), but I have to go stack by stack. No so bad compared to component by component. I have to modify each stack anyway for proper component height and to enable vacuum pickup detection.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 05:33:19 pm
content: Quote from: Rat_Patrol on July 17, 2020, 05:04:57 pmThat would be the very first thing I do once I actually convince myself and my wife to spend that kind of money. I'm a professional software developer, so that should not be that hard for me.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 06:00:02 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on July 17, 2020, 05:33:19 pmIt would/should be insanely simple for those with experience. If you could write a properly working converter, which is basically just converting a text file to another text file with a few more columns of info, and have it work properly and easily, I'd happily pay for it.Link to their converter tool:http://en.charmhigh.net/companyfile/1/#c_companyFile_list-15381343909638454-2I'll attach a .txt file as an example of the output, and a final output from the converter tool (after I fixed it). OOPS, the forum won't allow me to upload the .dpv. Its just text anyway, I'll save it as a .txt so I can upload that too.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 06:10:22 pm
content: Hmm, having issues with the output file.Lets try this...

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 08:56:37 pm
content: Somewhat of a solution to the software:Since I only run components @ 0,90,180 or 270 degrees, I just use find/replace in Excel to adjust values.Also, in the Charmhigh software, using the -90 and 180 degree flips, which control the entire stack, help as well. My last PnP build, which was about 300 components on the board, took about 30 minutes to program up. Since it takes all of 4-5 seconds to change each stack with the built in rotation buttons, it only takes a few minutes even to run through all material stacks.I found it helps to have a bare PCB at my desk that I intend to populate. Once I have the build file ready, I'll grab a random polarized component or SOT23 etc. from each stack and compare it's required orientation (considering if the feeder is on the W or E side of the machine) compared to the file in the Charmhigh software.Not the most ideal workflow, but it works for now.

author: zerohimself
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 02:48:52 am
content: I would totally just use google sheets to =filter the dataset, and then you can add your own custom rotations to the part, output it to a new sheet with proper formatting, and then download a .csv of the corrected output. I'm sure i'll be making one sometime in the near future.. Once I do, i'll make a public copy for anyone else to use / copy

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 06:48:46 pm
content: If you make a good workflow, please do share it.I'm in contact with 2 different software developers. One is retired, looking for a project to keep him busy, the other is a student, basically eager to practice.I have given them info and example files to work with, but hopefully one or both of them can come up with a useful tool.I don't know how they will license it (open source, proprietary), but whether they want a few bucks for a download or if they are giving the software out for free, I'll be sure to link to it.One big ask was to have the material stack settings kept "sticky" or at least recalled. I doubt many here swap components around the feeders all the time with these types of machines, so it would be nice if all that was pre-filled. Simply import the exported PnP data from the CAD program, in my case turn 270 into 90, have it flip the components on the East side, and you are GTG.My last build using the OEM tool took me over 2 hours of fighting the tool. It was a 250 component board, about 50 unique components.

author: zerohimself
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2020, 07:31:49 am
content: Quote from: Rat_Patrol on July 26, 2020, 06:48:46 pmI'm struggling to get mine setup the for the first time.. lots of little gotcha's that I couldn't have accounted for before now. I'm not sure how my 560p4 behaves with the angles.. I had thought they were rotated, but it seems like it initially got all of the caps and resistors in the proper orientation.. not sure about the other parts quite yet.. I'm struggling to do my first "real" pick and place.But...I have a google sheets table of all of my components each with a unique ID, that can be used in any of my BOM's.. I can easily assign them each a stack location (once i have it all figured out), and then each component can be referenced across all of my project/board BOM's. I haven't quite figured out everything in the .dpv format, but it really is simple, and labeled, so i'm sure I can figure out a way to do it.. The hard part right now is just figuring out what data I need to track at the stack level vs each use in a BOM level. An app would be cleaner, but i'll get around to that after I have a POC in a spreadsheet system. I still need a good way to track how much inventory i've used without me manually entering data every time(I can probably script this into google sheets as well).I'll keep you posted as I come up with versions that can actually make sense to anyone other than me... But eventually it will have to become more database/application driven rather than me trying to code an app in google sheets lol.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2020, 02:44:40 pm
content: Quote from: zerohimself on August 02, 2020, 07:31:49 amJust a heads up: I have a software engineer working on a new tool now, but it will likely be limited to the 36/48 machines. He said he should have at least a first version available in a few days. I asked him about how he will license the software, and he is most likely going to post it up on Github as a gift to humanity. Once we have a working tool, I'll be sure to post up the link to download.I also started making my own stack sheets to input into a .dpv. I found the machine is OK with declaring ALL my stacks, regardless of if I'm using them, and then just doing some stack/head/etc assignments in Excel and then copy/paste that into the .dpv file and it works. I have to pick out the calibration components manually, but it kinda sorta works.

author: theatrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2022, 07:20:07 pm
content: Thanks for the link to the updated software - I had mostly run my own Altium CSV->DPV converter script as the latest version I had was 2.4.4.What firmware is everyone running? Is there something newer than 2.5?

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2022, 07:29:34 am
content: Quote from: theatrus on February 05, 2022, 07:20:07 pmI've got v2.5 (SmtMain.exe)