How many UK citizens start an eletronic degree/HND/BTEC each year? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2017, 08:48:00 pm
content: I believe the answer is now down to less than 200 UK citizens per year...the UK office of National Statistics will not provide this info...they only provide total number of students which as is well known, is mainly nonUK students.The lack of UK engineers is sending UK to the third world....in about a decade its believed.....The suicide of UK owned industry from 1952 to present day (2016)In the early 1950s, the UK was an industrial giant. Today, it is an industrial pygmy. In 1952, UK owned companies made a quarter of the world’s manufacturing exports. Today (2016), the UK makes up less than 2 per cent of the world’s manufacturing exports, and even that percentage is mostly made up from foreign owned companies operating within the UK.The UK now has a National Debt of 1.7 trillion pounds, and has been spending much more than it earns for every year over the 33 years up to 2016, and its trade deficit is dramatically worsening. The supply of North Sea Oil on which UK has become reliant is about to run out. >50% of UK industry is foreign owned; >40% of UK vital services (electricity, gas, infrastructure etc) are foreign owned; >66% of the fuel for the UK economy is foreign owned. UK is not capable of building its own nuclear power stations but relies on China to do it whilst China is already busy building illegal islands just off the coasts of Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia, Taiwan and Phillipines. >90% of UK schoolchildren stop progressing in maths & science at the age of 16. The OECD recently declared that a quarter of UK’s adults have the maths skills of a 10 year old. The brunt of the UK’s Naval fleet is powered by Electric Motors & Drives designed and built by the French. In the UK in 2016, >70% of London’s ‘zone 1’ office space is foreign owned.The UK’s downward slide is moving at an alarming pace....In 1952, the UK was an industrial powerhouse. In 1952, UK brought out the world’s first commercial airliner, and was a close second to the USA in the development of the computer. In 1956, UK was amongst the first to bring out a Nuclear power station. In the 1950’s, Britain invented nuclear power, led the world in its application and developed enough stations to sustain a sizeable home-grown industry with a strong skills base. In the 1950s, UK owned companies were the second-largest manufacturers of cars in the world (after the United States) and the world’s largest exporter of cars.The UK’s Sir Frank Whittle invented the turbojet engine in the 1930’s. In 1940, the UK had developed a Cavity Magnetron a thousand times more powerful than anything in the USA. The Mini, as developed by the British Motor Corporation in the 1960’s was voted the 2nd most influential car of the 20th century.However, the UK flogged most of Rolls Royce to the Germans, Jaguar Land Rover to India, Bentley to the Germans, Rover to the Germans, Triumph to the Germans, and now has virtually no car industry of its own (Morgan cars have BMW engines). The UK has 25.8 million cars on its roads, and each one represents lots of money flowing overseas, worsening the already disastrous UK trade deficit. The UK cannot blame the arrival of the Far East into the world economy for UK’s poor performance, because after all Germany is managing just fine. In 2014, Germany was the world’s biggest exporter by Capital value.The UK privatised its rail network so as to bring the benefits of private ownership...but then the German government bought a huge chunk of it (Arriva trains)...so its back into state-ownership...but owned by the state of a foreign country. In December 2015, the UK derived 17% of its energy from wind power. In Oct 2016, there were 6594 wind turbines in the UK. None of these wind turbines is designed or manufactured in the UK. Virtually all of them are designed and manufactured by Siemens of Germany or other foreign companies.The UK payed £4.4bn net to the EU in 2009/10, but this rose to £8.8bn in 2014/15....the EU actually took 12.8 billion from UK, but gave back £4bn to be spent in ways decided entirely by the EU. The UK recently flogged off Admiralty Arch (the glorious gateway to Buckingham Palace) and The Old War Office (on Whitehall) to Spain & India respectively, for conversion into Hotels/Flats. In 2002, the UK came up with the "Enterprise Act", freeing its government from the duty of intervention when its own UK owned industries of great value were about to be sold into Foreign ownership...subsequently, from 1997 to 2007, foreign ownership of the UK’s firms rose from a third to a half, and foreign ownership of its vital services (electricity, gas infrastructure etc) rose to 40 per cent. Other countries (eg USA, Germany, France, Spain etc etc) have legislation which stops them from selling off their country’s prized assets in the way that the UK does.Foreign companies acquired £30billion worth of the UK's enterprises in 2009. In 2010, that rose to a value of £54.5 billion. In 2016, the UK flogged off the magnificent ARM company to the Japanese for £24.3 billion, this had been the jewel in the UK's crown, one of the greatest electronics companies in the world. The UK flogged Boots the Chemists to the Italians, and Boots stores remain in the UK, and then the UK found that under Italian ownership, the UK received just £9 million in Tax from Boots, rather than the £90 million per year that it received before flogging it off (due to Boots getting "brass plated" by the Italians to Zug in Switzerland)......The same story of reduced Tax revenue is prevalent with most of the UK's other multitudinous industrial sales to foreign companies. In 2016, the Chief Advisor to the Turkish Prime Minister indicated that all the UK now does is to “Produce Cadbury’s chocolates and Maltesers”. (But in fact, Cadbury’s actually was sold to the Kraft foods company of the USA in 2010). In 2012, Nikolas Sarkozy, Prime Minister of France, declared that “The United Kingdom has no industry any more”. England is the 5th (fifth) most densely populated country in the world.Between 2002 and 2008 the UK suffered a 50% drop in the number of its own domiciled school leavers opting for Electronics/Electrical Engineering degrees. Each year much less than 500 of UK school leavers "enrol" for an electronics degree, the majority of these choose all software modules or transfer to the School of Computer Science at the end of year two. In UK it is virtually impossible for almost anyone to assert the exact number of UK_citizen school leavers that end up actually graduating with an electronics degree each year....As far as Electronics Hardware centred graduates are concerned, the number is thought to be under 100 per year. A paltry amount.When foreign owned companies in UK are a success, the profits flow overseas, when they do less well, there are more likely to be job losses. R&D spending gets notably less when UK industries get sold overseas. Tax revenue to UK is dramatically less. The UK is poorly placed to pay off its huge National Debt, since it has shed the once UK owned Engineering industry so desperately needed to pay off its debt.The UK National Debt of UK is 1.7 trillion pounds in 2016. However, this figure is often “watered down” by expressing it as “National Debt as a percentage of GDP”. This comes out as 90% for UK…hardly a cause for comfort in itself, but in any case, GDP has dubious meaning for a country like UK, where >50% of industry & services are foreign owned. This is partly because for instance, GDP does not take into account profits earned in a nation by overseas companies that are remitted back to foreign investors. This can overstate a country's actual economic output.Like in no other country, Britain has sold off more than half of its companies to Foreign owners (stated by Alex Brummer in book “Britain for Sale”). Nearly two thirds of UK manufacturing businesses that employ over 500 are now owned by foreign companies claimed business minister Baroness Neville-Rolfe in 2016.

author: ed_reardon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2017, 08:56:30 pm
content: I'm too many beers down to tap out a full reply on my 'phone!I work in the 'allied' industry of instrumentation, when I tried to find a municipal college within a reasonable radius to look at fundamental HE level courses I was repeatedly told that 'yes the course exists on paper, but good luck finding a tutor for it!'Shocking, considering I work with so many knowledgable old 'grey beards' who took advanced day-release instrumentation engineering courses for a few years around work.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2017, 10:22:06 pm
content: There's plenty of bad news to go around but here's a fact in the US: There is no future in Electrical or Electronics engineering according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics:https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/electrical-and-electronics-engineers.htmJob growth is thought to actually decline between 2014 and 2024 by 100 engineers. In other words, you have to be a fool to sign up for that much pain and anguish only to find a stagnant job market. BLS doesn't do a good job of differentiating between electrical and electronics engineers. Here's a different page with just electronics engineers showing a mediocre gain of 2.3%https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes172072.htmSoftware developers make more money and the job market is though to expand by 17% with a net gain of 187,000 over the period of 2014 to 2024https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htmOf course I'm going to sign up for CS! EE is a losing proposition!OTOH, if you want to make a butt load of money, right out of school, you go into petroleum engineering:https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2016/employment-outlook-for-engineering-occupations-to-2024.htmExcept I'm retired and not signing up for anything...Electronics is a nice hobby and it's a whole lot of fun but don't confuse it with a professional career. The future is dim at best.

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 01:03:02 am
content: Is it possible students pick engineering, then major in ee, but their specialization is not picked up and counted in the statistics? I am sure the story is still awful.You can contrast the decline, with the rise of a city like Shenzhen, an electronics and high-tech manufacturing base built from nothing, over the same period (population growth 30k to > 10 million).

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 01:15:20 am
content: Quote from: julian1 on June 04, 2017, 01:03:02 amNot in the UK. The system of higher education generally provides that you elect your course of study when you apply for entry, so that you start studying on day one what you intend to graduate in.

author: PChi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 08:46:29 am
content: The number of students reflects market forces. I wouldn't study engineering now. You end up with a massive debt at the end of the course. It's going to be difficult to find a job let alone one that pays a salary you can live on comfortably or one close to where you live.It wasn't great back in in 1978 when I graduated. I suspect it's terrible now. I suspect that most jobs want someone with specific experience. How are newly graduated students going to learn?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 03:25:24 pm
content: Quote from: PChi on June 04, 2017, 08:46:29 amIf you wouldn't study engineering (and I'm not disagreeing!), what would you study that would provide ample income over a career?I suppose business management with an MBA as the target degree would provide some income. None of the humanities will provide more than a 'live under a bridge' level of income.Whatever the major, there should be an expanding market. That's what makes CS so impressive. At the moment, it is one of the fastest growing segments and there are job opportunities at all levels.This topic is more than simply an interesting discussion, my grandson has started college and is still trying to pick a major. It's early, he still has some general education courses to take but, pretty soon, it's time to choose. He needs to find something that is interesting enough to do for 40 years and pays well enough to enjoy those years.I'm not sure I would pick EE today. In the early '70s it was a hot topic. Now, not so much.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 04:04:06 pm
content: The number of people studying EE doesn't always reflect how many enter the field. When I graduated from UCL in 76 most of my class mates started work in some kind of engineering job, although many drifted away over a few years. Many physics grads from top colleges went into EE at that time, mostly in RF roles, so the number entering the EE field exceeded the number of EE graduates. By the mid 80s people told me the majority of those studying EE at UCL were doing so specifically to enter finance. It seems this was also true at the other top tier colleges. The finance world finds high calibre engineering grads who took all the control systems and maths options very attractive. Other financial centres, such as Hong Kong, also find EE grads attractive.When we were trying to recruit fresh graduate engineers around London in the late 80s, the only ones looking for actual engineering jobs were from the lower tier universities. Then in the early 90s the UK economy sunk to a place where new EE jobs were essentially non-existent for several years, and people all the way down the ability scale abandoned any aspirations of working in this industry. That was the point where I left the UK for East Asia, and where I have worked until now. I am about to return to the UK to retire, but going back there to work as an engineer would appear insane. Even retiring there might be problematic, if the country becomes unstable.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 04:17:02 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on June 03, 2017, 10:22:06 pmThey are predicting 10 years of pretty stable electronics engineering employment in the US. This might or might not be an accurate prediction, but taken at face value its hardly a terrible market to enter. There aren't many options that offer rapid growth for a period as long as 10 years. As with jobs which are still growing, such as some areas of software, the big question for most people is not whether there will be opportunities, but whether enough of those opportunities will be in places where they want to (or are able to) live.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 04:19:28 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 04, 2017, 04:04:06 pmWho are you listening to that you think there's any possibility of the UK becoming unstable? Russia Today? The propaganda ministry of the Republic of Kanuckistan? Sean Spicer?I think there's more chance of civil war in Sweden than Britain becoming 'unstable'. As long as there's tea, apart from the odd storm in a teacup (pun intended), Britain will remain as calm as ever.

author: PChi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 04:28:53 pm
content: If you wouldn't study engineering (and I'm not disagreeing!), what would you study that would provide ample income over a career?I suppose business management with an MBA as the target degree would provide some income. None of the humanities will provide more than a 'live under a bridge' level of income.Whatever the major, there should be an expanding market. That's what makes CS so impressive. At the moment, it is one of the fastest growing segments and there are job opportunities at all levels.This topic is more than simply an interesting discussion, my grandson has started college and is still trying to pick a major. It's early, he still has some general education courses to take but, pretty soon, it's time to choose. He needs to find something that is interesting enough to do for 40 years and pays well enough to enjoy those years.I'm not sure I would pick EE today. In the early '70s it was a hot topic. Now, not so much.Ummm that's got me. Medicine and law I guess. Other than those options which aren't easy I'm not sure. In the UK engineering doesn't pay well enough, is insecure and there are too few jobs. I have been made redundant five times and left other companies that were obviously finished and had to move house a few times.I think that in the UK jobs like Sales, Building Maintainance, Human Resources, Accountancy etc. pay as well if not better and there are many more of them.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 04:36:27 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on June 04, 2017, 04:19:28 pmWhat a bizarre interpretation of what I said.Another period of instability like the 70s in the UK, and inflation could wreck my retirement plans. Large numbers of retirees who thought they were retiring comfortably were left in very poor circumstances after that. Prices tripling over a few years can really play havoc with your plans.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 04:44:50 pm
content: Quote from: PChi on June 04, 2017, 04:28:53 pmThere are so many MBAs I don't think that can end well.Quote from: PChi on June 04, 2017, 04:28:53 pmI suspect biology in general will have a good run for a decade or two. What is becoming possible in biology feels a lot like digital electronics and software did when I graduated in the 70s. Who knows if anything can sustain a good 40 year run to encompass a whole working life.Biology, pharma, and related activities have been strong in the UK, but I see that some of that has been sold out to foreign companies, who might ensure any growth doesn't occur in their UK operations.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 05:39:03 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 04, 2017, 04:17:02 pmStability is just another word for stagnation. There's not much growth to absorb new graduates and the old folks can't retire until the health care system is finalized (whatever that may mean). My wife is still working specifically to keep us in her employer's health care plan.As to the UK, I don't know that it will be 'unstable' but I would expect a lot of anguish over the results of Brexit. Being held hostage to the promise of a trade deal (maybe) after a 'transition period' doesn't sound like a good thing.It's really hard to look into the future and know where things are going. My folks had it easier, all they wanted was for me to go to college and take engineering (didn't care which kind). It was a given, back then, that engineering was going to provide an adequate life style.I didn't spend much time doing any real 'engineering' and none of it was electronics related. I wound up as a project manager building facilities (like semiconductor plants) and, as mentioned above, my EE education got me in the door because it is loaded with math. Engineers tend to understand numbers and numbers are the only thing businesses care about. It's cool sitting in a meeting doing math in your head while others are struggling to use a calculator. I'm convinced that learning to use a slide rule is the key to numeracy.Funny thing: I didn't do engineering, I bought it! If I needed something designed, I just got on the phone and called a real engineer.Another not so funny thing: Not one police officer in my town makes less than $100k/yr after accounting for overtime and hire-back. College isn't really required to start but some is required to get above Sergeant. The retirement plan is 3% of highest year's salary per year of service and retire at 50. At 50, an officer could have 29 years of service so their retirement would be 87% of highest year's salary. And then they transfer to a different agency with a different retirement plan and spend another 10 years building up a second retirement.Pretty cool!Engineering sucks! Or at least the retirement plan does.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 05:54:51 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 04, 2017, 04:36:27 pmNot really. You said "if the country becomes unstable" which surely can only be reasonably interpreted by "the country" becoming unstable. I think most people would regard a description of an 'unstable county' very differently from 'financial instability' which appears to be what you really meant.Anyway, don't take it so seriously, the reference to that well known bed of unrest the "Republic of Kanuckistan" (just to the north of the USA) ought to have registered on your British sense of humour, unless you left that behind when you left Britain.Quote from: coppice on June 04, 2017, 04:36:27 pmMy father retired in exactly that period, 1975 or thereabouts from memory. My mother lived in comfort until dying last year, and my parents were far from wealthy so I don't think you have anything to worry about if things were to get as 'bad' as you remember the 70's to be. The worst of the 70's: Vietnam, the three day week, rubbish piling up in the streets of London and tank tops are beginning to feel like nostalgic light relief compared to recent domestic and world events.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 06:06:41 pm
content: Quote.Careful , you are giving bad ideas(surplus old men) to the youngers.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 06:28:35 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on June 04, 2017, 05:39:03 pmBeing able to spot a good engineer is a good talent to have because that way you'll get a whole lot of work done. Anyway, I think there is enough engineering work to be done but just not enough skilled engineers. I get job offers from the UK regulary even though I'm located in the NL. They must be really desperate to start fishing at the other side of the pond!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 06:49:52 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 04, 2017, 06:28:35 pmIf I did the engineering, all I could do was a single engineer's worth of output (if that). But if, as the project manager, I hired a dozen engineers (contract), the jobs would get done a whole lot sooner. Besides, I didn't need electronics engineering, I needed architectural, electrical, mechanical, structural and civil engineers. None of which I was qualified to do. Best to just buy it!I don't know that there is any growth in the ranks of professional engineers (those listed above). In any event, I never wanted to spend any time on a drafting board or CAD system. Boring!

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 10:19:25 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on June 04, 2017, 05:39:03 pmInteresting tangent, do you have any links or advice about learning to use a slide rule?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2017, 02:33:53 am
content: Quote from: julian1 on June 04, 2017, 10:19:25 pmNo but there must be some around somewhere.My point was that in using a slide rule, you have to round off. You also need to keep track of the powers of 10. Your answer will only have a couple of significant digits.Trig and logarithm functions are split over multiple scales to get more precision. Keeping track of the decimal point is up to the user.It wasn't that I wanted to use a slide rule, the HP35 didn't come out until just before I graduated from EE school. I couldn't afford it anyway!Later on I bought an HP45 and still use my HP48GX.Here is one of the dozens of K&E manuals:http://www.mccoys-kecatalogs.com/KEManuals/4080-3_1962/4080-3_1962.pdf

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2017, 04:18:36 am
content: The US entered into several agreements, especially the URAA December 8, 1994 which basically commits us to outsource services like engineering. teaching, health care/health insurance, etc. Negotiations have been going on since the late 90s to finalize it (for example the Doha Development Agenda contains provisions for services liberalisation) but they have repeatedly collapsed.Trade agreements attempt to create a high level of certainty, for multinational corporations who get market access to other countriues under provisions like "National Treatment" and "Most Favored Nation" - these provisions then come with a right to move their employees around at will, which clashes with national expectations of control over areas such as immigration.However, as acquiescence to these terms is seen as a sort of promise or debt created by decades of policy and back room negotiations which have been hinted at and even described at length in developing countries press but which have never been covered in the Western media at all, it may be hard or impossible to prevent these deals from not just becoming policy, becoming vested entitlements owned by foreign countries and firms to market access which prevent any law or policy seen as functionisng as a bar to their economic profitability. They bind numerous other areas to ensure the foreign firms profitability, and all other areas of policy with few exceptions have to conform to these new requirements, so as not to undermine their positions, often without the government explaining this at all. (Governments are more likely to try to create fake cover stories to explain their unpopular actions)So, without any explanation ever being given, big changes might occur (such as a vast shifts in employment favoring multinational corporate providers of services over public services, i.e. mass privatizations followed by international bidding for contracts) These deals could be very disruptive to the careers of many people whose work currently benefits many communities , practitioners of all kinds, especially discouraging for young people, who could see their chances of ever gaining paid employment in many fields suddenly changed from good to terrible. This shift would be immense and its effect incalculable - coming as it would at the same time as a loss in millions of office jobs to out sourcing / off-shoring (that is the main goal of TISA although its not widely known) and the automation of millions more.The changes could end up discouraging millions from entering technical fields, by making careers in those areas into precarious, low wage service work. But the lure of vast increases in profits is a corrupting influence on politicians, even criminogenic in that its effect is to make many lie about areas which have already been determined by trade policy. But what politician wants to tell constituents that international rules prevent them from fixing intractable policy mistakes? None do.---I feel we should focus on educating young people, and not undermine their futures by vastly expanding low wage guest worker programs thathave been compared to modern day slavery.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2017, 08:11:30 am
content: Quote from: julian1 on June 04, 2017, 10:19:25 pmWhen I was at school the choices were log tables, slide rules or mental arithmetic. I developed my mental arithmetic and quickly gave up the slide rule. The only significant thing that log tables and slide rules ever taught me was the value of automating tedious tasks. Things people often ascribe to the use of slide rules, such as properly assessing significance and powers, need to be mastered however you do your arithmetic. Calculators do allow the mindless generation of answers without any understanding, but they don't provide much assistance when assessing the significance of anything.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2017, 01:55:19 pm
content: How do beginning engineers gain work experience? Well, for some there are paths and for others there aren't. In particular, globalization has created a pathway that requires somebody be in a sense a captive worker. Unable to negotiate the terms of their employment. This assists them in gaining experience.- In the US, there are programs that basically staple a work visa to the diplomas of people in tech fields. But such programs are perhaps more generous wage wise than the ones that replace them which don't require somebody to have been a student and don't require that they make prevailing or even minimum wage, simply that they have at least an MS degree and a specialized skill and be employed by a qualified firm. (Multinational corporations.) Its now expected that such services corporations represent the future of much professional work in more and more fields, (even eventually ones which currently require very advanced training like engineering, law, teaching and medicine) and that the parent firms will locate themselves in countries with very low standards of corporate behavior in order to "optimize the supply chain". Licensing will be harmonized across borders - barriers of any kind that exist likely will be compelled to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator to enable this. Since international agreements are involved they cant be changed or reversed, "forever" (well, in practical terms its made very very costly and so very difficult to reverse) once begun.Quote from: PChi onYesterdayat 02:46:29