I don't want FTDI, what are my options? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cdwijs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 03:55:25 pm
content: Hi All,I have just hit my nose with a FTDI chiphttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/ftdi-chip-only-outputs-00's-has-anybody-also-seen-this/, so I don't want to design anything with FTDI anymore.I have tested the MCP2221-I/SL, but in one of my applications, it's unreliable, it stops transmitting serial data to the USB pipe at the same point in the conversation. I have tested it with 2 chips, both show the same result. An old (real) FT232RL works fine in this application.What USB to serial bridges are out there?Kind regards,Cedric

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 03:57:46 pm
content: Silabs make a range which work quite well:http://www.silabs.com/products/interface/usbtouart/Pages/usb-to-uart-bridge.aspx

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 04:14:39 pm
content: Prolific.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 04:17:19 pm
content: Quote from: Delta on March 21, 2016, 04:14:39 pmUntil such time as they decide the chip is no longer worth writing drivers for.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 04:31:42 pm
content: I would avoid prolific.I've used several cheapo cables with these devices, and whilst they could easily have been counterfeit devices, it was a pain. It could cause the PC to freeze, but mostly just the driver crashed requiring an unplugging/plugging cycle.the CP2102 seems very stable on win7,8.1 and 10.Failing that, I'm a fanboy of the PIC16F1455. Probably overkill, but occasionally using a micro you have full control over (rather than a permanently programmed micro like these other devices) means you can load off some tasks from other systems. There are a few examples of USB-serial bridges with it where you can add your own code for anything else you need. Otherwise its just a case of flashing it and it works (never had issue with them).

author: Aodhan145
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 04:35:23 pm
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on March 21, 2016, 04:31:42 pmand mac but you need the drivers.

author: Rolo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 04:40:15 pm
content: A Lot of arduino clones use the CH340 now. Maybe thats an alternative for you.

author: Mr Smiley
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 04:42:45 pm
content: CH340G as used on arduino and usb>ttl converters

author: cdwijs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 04:46:01 pm
content: Quote from: Rolo on March 21, 2016, 04:40:15 pmThanks, but I cannot buy them at farnell, digikey nor mouser. At my job I have no access to the more hacker-friendly shops.It does look good, SOIC-16 is nice.Kind regards,Cedric

author: Aodhan145
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 05:25:34 pm
content: What about a MCP2200?

author: Macman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 05:28:35 pm
content: If you want an SOIC package another option would be a Cypress CY7C65213.

author: cdwijs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 02:28:57 pm
content: Hi All,I have seen it's possible to program an AVR chip to function as an USB device. I have tried a few of those projects, but they did not work for me. Probably the problem is between keyboard and chair :-)Does anybody know a working USB to serial AVR solution? This will allow me to choose from a wide array of packages, from dip to ultra small.Kind regards,Cedric

author: Philfreeze
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 04:02:15 pm
content: @cdwijsThere is V-USB (https://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/index.html)It is a AVR USB bitbang firmware.Combine it with an AVR chip which has some Serial Inferface and you have what you need.

author: diyaudio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 04:34:27 pm
content: Quote from: cdwijs on March 21, 2016, 03:55:25 pmftdi can go suck it,I literally destroyed all their shit with a hammer. Go Cypress or even Silicon Labs.CY7C65213

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 05:14:23 pm
content: Arduino UNO used a ATMEGA16 u2 as its usb-serial interface.I think the firmware is available on Github.

author: matkar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 06:04:29 pm
content: Try sourcing already proposed CH340. I'm sure you can convince your company to buy a bunch wherever especially since they are dirt cheap. Buy 1000 and you're set for a while:)

author: JTR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 03:10:50 am
content: Quote from: cdwijs on March 21, 2016, 03:55:25 pmI'm guessing that you are using Windows (prior to Windows 10?) If so the problem is well known and caused by noise on the CDC Data bulk IN endpoint. It is the host that detects errors and after three strikes in a row it silently drops the endpoint. No warning, messages, bus resets no nothing.To combat this I have seen circuits that put a very small cap in the range of just a few pf on the D+, D- lines in series with a 22R resistor to add some degree of noise reduction. (Actually I have also seen it on FTDI chips as well as at least earlier FTDI drivers would also fail in the same way.)Supposedly windows 10 is a lot more stable with the inbuilt CDC driver. This may or may not be the case.It is because of the well known issue with windows that you will find numerous comments on various forums advising against the use of a USB - UART chip that relies on the standard windows CDC driver. Due to my experience and research I have to agree. The windows CDC driver sucks at least up until it may have been fixed in windows 10.

author: Daving
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 07:16:11 am
content: Quote from: Aodhan145 on March 21, 2016, 05:25:34 pmThe MCP2221 is the replacement part for that. No crystal required. Still under $2 in quantity.Cheaper than most of the options listed so far.

author: kamtar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 12:40:22 pm
content: Quote from: Rolo on March 21, 2016, 04:40:15 pmThese have horrible drivers.

author: Boscoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 02:52:45 pm
content: I have no idea why people have a problem with FTDI bricking counterfeit products. Everyone would do the same and rightly so. Buy real parts you cheap skate mofo.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 03:06:33 pm
content: Quote from: Boscoe on March 23, 2016, 02:52:45 pmLet me guess. You didn't read the story as provided as a link in the OP.Let me help you here before you start humiliating yourself: cdwijs bought the chips from Farnell (a reputable and trusted distributor) and not from ebay/Banggood/DealExtream/Sparkfun/Adafruit/whatever...

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 04:00:40 pm
content: Quote from: elgonzo on March 23, 2016, 03:06:33 pmIf they are actually counterfeit, he should send them back to Farnell so they can address the problem and send replacements. Isn't that why you buy from real distributors in the first place? This isn't restricted to FTDI...counterfeit devices sometimes make their way into legitimate supply chains, if you discover you've received one, you need to take it up with the supplier so they can fix the problem.

author: Daving
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 04:02:07 pm
content: I'll just leave this here. This should answer the OP without any bias:http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/integrated-circuits-ics/interface-controllers/2556697?FV=1b8034f%2C1b80350%2C1b8038e%2C1b8038f%2Cfff40027%2Cfff80319&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=1000011&page=1&stock=0&pbfree=0&rohs=0&k=&quantity=1&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 04:20:30 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on March 23, 2016, 04:00:40 pmOfcourse cdwijs should do that. But how does it relate toQuote from: Boscoe on March 23, 2016, 02:52:45 pm

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 08:06:59 pm
content: CP2102 works well, but the driver is a bit less forgiving.I had issues with the comport library i was using when i moved from ft232 to cp2102. Something to do with buffers handled better in the ftdi driver.

author: TheCharels
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 08:55:41 pm
content: It is apparent that FTDI makes a useful device with good software to support it in the Windows operating system. This has made their products an attractive target for dishonest business practices. Many of the posts in this thread hold FTDI responsible for problems that are the result of using counterfeit chips.The manufacturers of these chips made them with the full knowledge and intent to defraud and deceive the purchaser of these devices.That these posts are so strident in their claims of FTDIs responsibility suggest that the methods used by FTDI are effective to some degree.From what I have seen so far the complaints about FTDIs actions look like self serving winging because a counterfeiter has managed to dupe you.If this was about currency not chips a receiver of a fraudulent note commits a crime when knowingly passing that note to another party. In many countries the receiver of such a note is required to confiscate it and report who it was received from.Are fake products really any less of an issue than fake currency?

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 09:02:49 pm
content: LOL, FTDI sock puppets are out in forceHow about just sticking to the topic, there are other threads for defending FTDI.

author: xtoffer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 09:12:43 pm
content: Quote from: cdwijs on March 22, 2016, 02:28:57 pmI have tried the V-USB library. I must say it works very well so far. I think there are a few versions of "to serial" out there. However, the USB implementation is very timing dependent and if you're looking for something stable and/or fast I would probably advice against it. Very much fun to experiment with though!( Oh and googled this up, seems to be in this direction. I have not tested this though.http://www.recursion.jp/prose/avrcdc/)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 09:28:31 pm
content: Quote from: TheCharels on March 23, 2016, 08:55:41 pmHistory has shown that when currency is no longer reliable people simply move over to a more reliable currency whether it is fake or inflates faster than a fart. See Zimbabwe for example where they abandoned their own currency and use several foreign ones.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_dollarTo get back to FTDI... take a look at this Ebay listing:http://www.ebay.com/itm/6Pin-USB-2-0-to-TTL-UART-Module-Serial-Converter-CP2102-STC-Replace-Ft232-Module-/400565980256This guy sold over 10000 USB to UART converters based on a Silabs chip specifically to replace the now non-working FT232 FTDI boards. Hell no they are going to try and find real FTDI chips; they take the route where there is the least resistance and more importantly: guaranteerd to work for the end user! The result is that because of just this one Ebay listing around 10000 people now have a Silabs chip as an example instead of a chip which says FTDI. 10000 pieces is not a lot in direct sales but quite a few of these people will end up using the 'chip they know' in a design which could go into a reasonable volume production run. Add to that that driver support is no longer an issue with Windows 10 because every popular USB-UART bridge (finally) works out of the box.

author: stmdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 07:49:09 pm
content: I've switched to using the MCP2221 for just about everything. It works without drivers in any modern OS (Win 8+,Linux, OSX), and has a bunch of nice-to-haves as well (ADC, I2C, GPIOs).What MCP isn't telling you though is that the MCP2221 is actually just a PIC with factory loaded firmware and different labels.Not that it matters in the end, but it's a fun fact.I do however have two minor issues with the MCP2221.The first one is that it won't go faster than 115200bps, and I have exactly _one_ device that insists on running 921600bps (yep, almost a megabit over serial).The second one is that it won't go lower than 3.0V, so if you're interfacing with 1.8V stuff, you'll need to level-shift.

author: Philfreeze
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2016, 10:34:51 am
content: Quote from: stmdude on March 30, 2016, 07:49:09 pmYou could use the PIC16F1455 for 1.8V stuff but you would have to write your own firmware (not really hard because microchip already has a USB library with lots of examples; the USB part would be up and running in less than a day). It has pretty much everything you need and it only has 14 pins (available as PDIP, QFN, SOIC, TSSOP and UQFN), pretty cool.I haven't looked yet but maybe they actually have an example that does exactly that.Edit:The PIC16F1455 also only costs 1.3$ to 1.45$ (depending on the package) and you can use the internal oscillator (16MHz) with PLL to generate the required 48MHz clock. Which means you don't need any fancy additional parts.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2016, 10:43:15 am
content: IIRC there are issues with Microchip on-chip USB transceivers that prevent Vdd being less than Vusb, and Vusb must be 3.3V to provide the correct USB signalling levels. Therefore external level shifting will be unavoidable.

author: Philfreeze
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2016, 11:39:08 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on March 31, 2016, 10:43:15 amYeah I just saw that. They state it in the maximum electrical characteristics.Vusb is Vdd +/- 0.3V and Vusb must be between 3.0V and 3.6V

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2016, 04:47:07 pm
content: Is there an easier way to follow a thread than writing a post?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2016, 05:09:00 pm
content: The button right next to 'reply'.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2016, 05:16:56 pm
content: Thanks! Now I know

author: kalan01r
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2016, 08:49:55 pm
content: I'm using ch340 for a while. And i found many problems with them. First of all i would like to notice that most my work with them i'm doing on windows xp (USB 2.0) They seemed not to work on long usb cable. FTDI or ATmega (used by arduino) have no such problem. Also sometimes, when i plug it in, i see "device not recognized" message. After plugging it in and out many times (sometimes i need to reset windows) they start working. With Arduino sometimes solution is to unplug all shields and other devices connected. I have also tested them on windows 7, but results were same. I have no idea if it's problem with windows driver, or power, or anything else. I think i should test them on linux... But problem with long usb cable will stay. Or maybe long cable is only on cheap arduino with ch340 ?

author: matkar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2016, 09:30:22 pm
content: So your CH340 experience is limited to Arduino clones?I have two Arduino Nano clones which I never used. By looking at the circuit board I can see they are using resonators to get the 12MHz clock for the CH340. I wonder how on earth does any of the clones manage to function in the first place...I'm using CH340 with a proper 12MHz crystal in one of my projects and I have no such issues.

author: kalan01r
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 09:41:20 am
content: This problems i have only with arduino mega. I testested about 15 of them, same problems each. I assume that they are from same manufacturer. On monday i will be able to test those mega. I will measure frequency of that resonator. Now i have just uno board, and it seems to working fine. On monday i'll find out if it cause problem on my windows xp pcedit.I forgot to mention that i have few usb to rs232 ttl converters based on PL2303, and i have no problem with them. All of them works perfect.edit2.Here is comparison of Arduino Uno (CH1), and Mega (CH2). Probes are connected to pin 10 of CH340. All seems fine. My oscilloscope is SDS 1052DL

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2016, 12:55:46 am
content: yeah, i wouldn't rely on any cheap china products (arduinos etc.) as an indication if a specific USB to Serial chip is good.They are cheap because they use either counterfeit or legit but rejected parts.My experiences with USB to serial in terms of reliability isFT232RL = very goodCP2102 / CP2109 = perfectly okAnything Prolific = shitFTDI pissed me off with the whole FTDIgate bricking thing, so i use CP21xx in my designs now.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2016, 05:59:53 pm
content: So far none of my CH340G's failed on me.WCH, the maker of CH340G, never authorized any of those major distributors (Farnell, Mouser, etc) to sell their chips anyway, and users of their chips usually go directly to them for chips (and they ship them directly from their factory in Nanjing.) If you are interested you can DM me your address and I can send you a few from my own stock so you can try them out yourself.Or you can use one of those bitbang USB firmware on a 8-pin (ATtiny25) or 14-pin (ATtiny24) MCU

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2016, 07:32:13 pm
content: In other words, they don't want to sell them.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2016, 07:56:05 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 08, 2016, 07:32:13 pmThose major distributors was never "big" or "well known" in China. Also Chinese chip manufacturers may have legal issues selling their chips through those distributors since they are not domestically-owned companies and such sales may require an exporting license, which is fairly difficult to obtain. This is China with its weird legal system we are tackling now.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2016, 12:37:55 am
content: To take a side road, I use an FTDI 4232 configured for 4 UARTS. Is there an alternative chip out there?My project actually requires 4 streams between a microcontroller and a PC. I run as many as 3 instances of Hyperterminal.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2016, 01:24:35 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 10, 2016, 12:37:55 amCP2108

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2016, 03:54:40 am
content: Thanks

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2016, 03:10:09 pm
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on March 21, 2016, 04:31:42 pmI accidentally bought a Prolific RS232 to USB cable to program Asian Walkie Talkies. It works 'enough' but I do sometimes have to switch ports to get the computer to recognize the radio. It hasn't annoyed me enough yet as I am only doing it for people at my ham radio club meeting but as some point, I will get a proper FTDI cable.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2016, 03:34:02 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on April 12, 2016, 03:10:09 pmChances that you got genuine prolific are rather slim IMO. They are widely cloned too.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2016, 04:00:56 pm
content: FT230X, cheaper than FT232 and I have not heard about any clones or fakes being around.Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk.