Am I the only one learning/using a DVORAK keyboard? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 06:43:59 pm
content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_keyboard_layoutIt's a pain in the beginning, but I am likening more and more.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 06:47:35 pm
content: I am so familiar with standard keyboards that there would be no gain learning a new one.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 08:37:43 pm
content: What do the poll questions have to do with the question in the thread title? There is touch typing without Dvorak keyboards, obviously. With the added benefit of being "backwards compatible" with regular folks.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 08:48:56 pm
content: DVORAK was designed with English language letter frequencies and combinations in mind.As such, if one is not typing large amounts of English, then DVORAK offers no advantage.And by large amounts, I'm talking small novel or PhD thesis quantity of English text.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 08:50:42 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 12, 2024, 08:37:43 pmLearning DVORAK without touch to type makes no sense.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 08:52:48 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on November 12, 2024, 08:48:56 pmSome vi users are reporting the opposite

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 08:55:28 pm
content: Quote from: Zucca on November 12, 2024, 08:50:42 pmIndeed. But learning to touch type without Dvorak is a viable option.So my answer to the poll would be that "I don't give a F" about Dvorak, but still think that touch typing is desirable. You are not offering that option since you are not making that distinction.It's "Dvorak", by the way, not DVORAK. August Dvorak was a person, not an acronym.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 08:59:04 pm
content: DVORAK was essentially optimized for writing English, so it may not make a lot of sense for other languages. But maybe you mostly write English in your daily activities, so that would make sense then.There are otherwise variants optimized for other languages ( seehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_keyboard_layout). Oddly, there doesn't seem to be for Italian - at least they don't list it.And yes, the potential benefits may never override the difficulty of learning a completely new thing. So while that's something I've considered trying, I personally never followed through. Too much investment for little benefit, and the risk of losing your muscle memory for the "conventional" layouts and thus have issues if you can't use a DVORAK layout when you're not using your own machines. Similarly, I've tried alternative key placement (like "matrix" kind of keyboards rather than staggered), but it puts you in a position of requiring to go everywhere with your own keyboard, so that's a problem. Now some people may get used to both and that would probably take using both on a regular basis, which may not be very practical. So, yeah.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 09:12:50 pm
content: Sorry for the topic drift, but has anyone tried a "chording keyboard"?It is operated by one hand and has five buttons, one for each finger (there are variations around this). The characters are typed by combining button presses, from one-to-one five buttons simultaneously.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorded_keyboardI've never tried one, but I find the idea intriguing.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 09:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on November 12, 2024, 09:12:50 pmIsn't that what is used by courtroom stenographers? It apparently allows them to make notes at normal speaking speed.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 09:21:22 pm
content: I didn't even notice this was a poll. But then I add my complaint to everyone else: you have missed option 5 from the poll: "There is no need."

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 10:26:31 pm
content: Quote from: Zucca on November 12, 2024, 08:52:48 pmI think I care about the opinion of the VI users as meth users. Both group have some problems and I can't relate to either one of them.Quote from: IanB on November 12, 2024, 09:18:36 pmI nerded a bit about this, apparently they don't type complete words. It was a quite complicated system, lot's of training and concentration.They are also likely to be out of their jobs in the next 20 milliseconds by AI.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 10:33:35 pm
content: Maybe something like this would make more sense:https://ranked.gg/blogs/news/qwerty-vs-dvorak-vs-colemak-which-keyboard-layout-reigns-supreme#programmer-dvorakFor those that spend a lot of their time coding. I could see it making a bigger difference than the arguably minimal if any dvorak vs qwerty gains.Quote from: IanB on November 12, 2024, 09:21:22 pmThat would be the first option, imo.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 11:05:51 pm
content: Apparently research suggests that after gaining equal proficiency with Dvorak, people typing large amounts of English text can see speed improvements of 10% to 20%.That was probably a useful thing for professional typists in the days when every revision of a document meant completely retyping it, as quickly as possible, with no thinking required.Even when writing English text such as this reply, I spend more time thinking than I do writing. And although I touch-type on QWERTY -- that is, I don't look at the keyboard -- professional typists are 2x or 3x faster than me at simple typing-without-thinking. If it mattered to me then learning better touch-typing on QWERTY would give much larger gains than learning Dvorak as well as I know QWERTY now. But in 45 years of using computer keyboards I've never found the motivation to do even that.When it comes to writing computer programs, I doubt Dvorak would have any advantage at all.Aside from speed, Dvorak is claimed to reduce typing effort and fatigue. Again, I don't find that a problem with my usage. For example I've never in that 45 years had any problem with RSI. Or with back pain from sitting at the computer for long hours either.And then even if you learn Dvorak and have a Dvorak keyboard at your main machine, everywhere else is QWERTY. Yes, you can use Dvorak layout on a QWERTY keyboard, but what a massive pain it would be to enable that any time you wanted to use someone else's machine!Frankly, if I'm going to learn another layout then it's going to be Cyrillic, not Dvorak. But even there, when I type по Русски I do it (mostly) phonetically in QWERTY layout:Code:я ш е р т ы у и о п ю ж эа с д ф г ч й к лз х ц в б н м

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 06:52:08 am
content: I couldn't see myself using any other layout. On any given day, I probably use about 2 or 3 keyboards on different devices, not to mention all the keyboards that are in the office. Switching would be an absolute pain in the ass and actually slow my typing as the error rate would go through the roof.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 09:08:09 am
content: Learning - maybe the only one.Using - not the only one.I learned it as a kid because I had spare time so it cost me nothing. It proved at least effective in keeping undesirable individuals from using or abusing my computers left unattended for a moment.If I have to use QWERTY I just hunt-and-peck, like most everyone else anywayQuote from: brucehoult on November 12, 2024, 11:05:51 pmIf by "programming" you mean being one of those nerds who consider even comments, let alone email, to be too much social interaction for them

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 03:17:43 pm
content: As I need to type a number of different computers, most of them not only for my personal usage,I wonder how it works if somebody has to switch continuously between typing on their own DVORAK (or other similarly optimized)keyboard and a regular QWERTY/QWERTZ/AZERTY one.

author: Russ_A
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 03:26:50 pm
content: I've been using the Dvorak layout for decades now, at home and at work. It's one of those things that you do for you. If it works for you and you want to use that layout then go for it. I wouldn't recommend it to anybody else because I know many people just can't handle it for any number of reasons.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2024, 02:34:40 am
content: Dvorak looked interesting to me at one time, and then I realized that it would mean not being able to type on all the other keyboards I might need to use. (also, writing code did some serious interference with my learning to fully touch type, too. grr.)

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2024, 04:20:30 am
content: Quote from: westfw on November 16, 2024, 02:34:40 amHow so?Programming is what got me typing fluently. If I didn't write code, I would never have got fast at touch typing.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2024, 11:04:43 am
content: The typing class I was taking was all written english on a selectrix (or other electric typewriter.)The programming class I was taking at the same time was BASIC on an ASR33, which involved a lot of numbers and punctuation and an extra shift key and such, all not really covered in the typing class (and the asr keyboard was pretty awful.) so I pretty much learned where all the QWERTY letters were, but had trouble abiding by what was supposed to be the home position.

author: BILLPOD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2024, 05:42:23 pm
content: Good Morning Zucca, I am a unique case, but I could use either keyboard.I took typing courses in high school and in the Army and could do over 60 WPMuntil I was around 60, then I came down with a rare condition called CMT. I nowhave neuropathy in my extremities, so I now have to 'hunt & peck' on a keyboard.Although with Qwerty, I don't have to 'hunt' as much. But thanks for making me aware there was an alternative to qwerty.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2024, 06:08:37 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on November 16, 2024, 11:04:43 amF and J keys have small bumps to find home position while blind typing.QuoteYes.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2024, 06:33:55 pm
content: An ASR33 was the first keyboard I ever used when I was learning to program. Fond memories, and I would like to use one again, just for the nostalgia.The only terminal that would literally go "ding", "ding", "ding", "ding" when you sent it a string of BEL characters. It had an actual bell with a hammer. Every other electronic terminal would just make one long continuous "beeeeeeeeeeeep".But one advantage of learning to touch type while programming is that I learned to type all the punctuation and symbol keys as well as the normal letters and numbers.Quote from: RoGeorge on November 16, 2024, 06:08:37 pmAnd very often they also have a slightly deeper indentation than the other keys.