VirtualBox Windows 10 64 Bit Question - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 11:39:22 pm
content: Hello there. I have software I have to use to talk to electronic equipment that must run in Windows XP 32 BIT. That means maintaining a Windows XP image for my M6600 laptop. If I run windows 10 Pro (64 bit), can VirtualBox be used to create a virtual 32 Bit Windows XP environment? Will it have unrestricted access to the USB ports? Same question about a 32 bit Windows 7 machine window? A lot of old software can run on Windows 7, but not the 64 bit Windows 7. I assume they can all share the same hard drive where needed?So, I need ro create 32 BIT Windows XP and 32 bit Windows 7 machines on Windows 10 PC. I am thinking of buying an Alienware Area51 laptop. If I can make it work for work, I can have my company buy it (tax deduction). The problem might be no true RS232 port, but I have have one, out of several I've tried, USB to RS232 adapters that actually works.Thanks much,Dave

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 11:54:51 pm
content: Yes it will work fine. But you need to set up USB forwarding for that VM. I have a TL866 burner running on XP VM over Linux.If you meant if the VM images can all be stored on the same W10 disk, sure. If you meant sharing a virtual hard drive it's not recommended. But you can mount network shares exported say from the host.Also be aware that you need to enable VT-x or AMD/V in the BIOS of the host for VirtualBox to work.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 12:34:28 am
content: guest = thing inside the VM. eg XP or Win7host = your actual machine and its operating system> I assume they can all share the same hard drive where needed?VM guests boot from a "virtual disk", ie a fake harddrive stored in a file on your host machine.If you want multiple guests (eg one XP guest and one Win7 guest) to share a disk then it's probably possible. It's generally easier instead to share a folder from your host, that way you don't have to juggle as many virtual disks. Virtualbox lets you do this easily, it's in the settings for the guest.> Alienware Area51 laptopJust as some vague general advice: high-power or "desktop replacement" laptops tend not to have much battery life. They're also very expensive.If you don't need to move things that much then I'd suggest a small desktop, it will give you a much better bang for buck (and be cheaper/easier to repair).

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 06:23:27 pm
content: "Just as some vague general advice: high-power or "desktop replacement" laptops tend not to have much battery life. They're also very expensive. "Yup, they are expensive. The one I am looking at would be about $2500.00. It would be good for most games, of course, I only really play Civilization and GT5. I have recently purchased one for my kid and my wife. They are really well built, not like the other flimsy Dell laptops. The dual power packs is a pain in the ass, but not always needed.If I can create two virtual PC's, and 32 Bit Windows XP and a 32 Bit Windows 7, I would be happy.By sharing drives, I meant like a download folder, or downloaded software folder. Of course I can do that with a external USB thumb drive or hard drive. I have tons of free or purchased utilities, that I would install in all three operating systems. Having them all in a common folder would be easier. Plus, getting a fresh XP installation on-line for downloading is a real pain in the ass. In fact, I probably wouldn't do it. I would just put in a fresh SP3 installation, get the needed instrument software working and not do anything else with it. I am sure if I copy something from a Windows XP screen (i.e., a screen shot) and then go to my Windows 10 screen edited a word document, I could paste it in? If not, I have to past it in Paint in XP and save it to a thumb drive and then insert that file in the Windows 10 word.I asked these silly things because I have zero experience with virtual machines. It is VERY important, that until I migrate some of my utilities and database (VBA) programs to Windows 10, that I can have these virtual machines access RS232 port (USB/RS232, I guess as I don't think there is a docking station for the Alienware machine).If I can use this super laptop for work, I would use those instead of my aging M6600 systems, and I could write it off as a business expense too (which quite frankly I would use it for business much more than playing civilization and GTA5 as I never seem to have play time anymore now that I am on my own).Dave

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 06:28:04 pm
content: "Yes it will work fine. But you need to set up USB forwarding for that VM"Is VitualBox the best solution. I don't mind paying for one that works better. I like the idea of VirtualBox is always under construction and not a released version deemed by management to be good enough. It seems there would be lots of support and continued development.If you do USB forwarding, I take it you have to figure out which one of the four, or so, ports you are assigning, and then it is only available to that VM when the VB is running? Is port forwarding providing an un-obstructed path to the port for the XP Virtual Window? Some of the software routines that suck screen shots off of an instrument under test are quite finicky with the RS232 port. I guess I would just have to try it.Dave

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 10:07:55 pm
content: Quote from: daveyk on March 06, 2020, 06:28:04 pmYou specify by USB vendor and device ID which devices are forwarded to the guest. As far as I can tell the USB packets are forwarded correctly, my burner works in the guest. I've also tried forwarding a USB WiFi dongle and that worked too.

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 01:32:55 am
content: I am willing to give it a try. I have my Windows 10 SSD popped in my M6600 now (this machine typically had a Windows 7/32 SSD in it or a Windows XP 3 Boot Partition drive in it). It should make a good test bed. I don't think on an Alienware Area51, the hard drives are not so easy to swap out, or any new laptop. I do love my M6600 machines, but they are aging and not just as cool as an Area 51 - lol. The displays on the new ones are amazing and the keyboards are also amazing. It would be nice to have to carry on one PC to a job site, one that can do it all. Boot to XP, Boot to 7, or boot to 10. I kind of have that now with the M6600s, but I do have to move in to the modern age before I am too senile.I would love to get more Windows 10 experience and still be able to run all the old software that I have to. One killer is no support for MSCOMM32.OCX in Windows 10. I still use that in all my programs, both VBA and VB6. I know there in an $80 replacement some guys have out there (the 30 day trial worked perfectly, but I am not sure I trust them, and it has been about two years since I tried it, I don't know if I can find it again), but I should learn to use the Windows API that support RS232. I am just not sure Windows 10 will really support RS232 and I doubt there is many examples, being that no one really uses RS232 anymore. I am good once I find a working example.Anywho, I guess I am off to download Virtual Box. I will keep a Windows XP/32 SP3 disk and license on me. Besides an old copy of Firefox, is there any browser that allows Windows XP to get on the web? I really wouldn't need it.Dave

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 01:54:37 am
content: If you set up shared folders in the host that the guest can mount then you can do your browsing on the host.

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 02:16:04 am
content: Working on it now. Windows XP is a slow install from CD. It seems to be going okay. I hope I can make full-screen mode work better than it does during install. I guess VirtualBox is from Oracle? Free? Cool, I was thinking it was the Linux boys... I'll see how activation goes shortly. If it can see the internet or if I have to call it in (which if I recollect I usually have to do).

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 02:23:19 am
content: Was developed by Sun Microsystems then Oracle bought SM. Oracle is also a Linux player with their workalike of Redhat Enterprise Linux.

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 02:25:36 am
content: It's working, cool. Trying to figure out how to let the XP window see the internet for activation or what not.

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 02:33:19 am
content: It (XP) can see the the gigabyte wired network adapter but not the Ultimate-N 6300 AGN adapter, which I think is the wireless one. Windows 10 see it fine. I guess it can not pass the connection to XP.... I have some learning to do.

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 02:35:01 am
content: You can put the guest network interface in NAT mode, then it will use the host driver instead of requiring XP driver support.When you're done setting up the guest including all the apps you need and it works, take a snapshot, then you can return to that if the current image goes pear shaped.

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 03:05:12 am
content: Can't figure out how to get NAT to transfer the wireless connection to XP. Working on trying different things.

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 03:41:47 am
content: In NAT XP uses the host's network. You may need to install the VirtualBox "NIC" driver and activate it in XP, which then communicates with the host. I think when the guest is running there will be a "CD" that you can mount to get the "NIC" driver from.PS: I think it's called the Guest Additions CD. There is a special menu item to mount this, it's not a regular CD or image.It's been a while since I did this. For Linux guests the "NIC" driver is already in the distro but obviously XP predates VB.

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 04:04:33 am
content: I think I got it working. I can bring up a CMD window and ping psu.edu now. Internet explored doesn't connect with any sites, but it is probably too old.I activated XP by calling Microsoft and then they sent a link to my iPhone.Now trying out the shared folder option. You advise, I looked for extension packs on the VirualBox site. They did have one.Dave

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 05:30:17 am
content: I am really banging my head against the wall. If I open a CMD window (in XP), I can ping psu.edu just fine, so XP is seeing the internet. So I try to set up a shared folder. The shared folder on the Windows 10 machine is set to be shared. In the Windows XP guest, it can not see the Oracle network or the \vboxsvr\temp location. It can not see any network besides the Microsoft one.The user manual is useless for this. Its instructions so not work. I found no help, so far, with google.Dave

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 05:47:23 am
content: I think you may need a Guest Addition driver for XP for this. Check the Guest Addition "CD". The shared folder doesn't rely on IP networking; it works by the VM process running the guest communicating with another process on the host.Then again maybe XP is too old to support this. Maybe that's why I created a SMB network share on the host and mounted this network share in XP. This will definitely work once you have sorted out the share permissions as I have Samba running on my Linux host and XP sees the share.Edit: You may have to tell W10 to support the older less secure SMB protocol that XP uses, I seem to remember MS phased that support out by default.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 07:00:37 am
content: It may have nothing at all to do with your problem, but I remember having networking problems in the XP days because of what Microsoft called "Simple File Sharing" which was always used by default. I think it was the only option in XP Home, but with Pro you could turn it off.

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 07:20:16 am
content: I finally figured it out. Under settings for the DVD/CD drive, you have to change it the add-on package support. Then when you reboot XP, it sees the D drive as the add-on package. After installing file sharing worked as a network drive.Now I can not find an old version of FireFox. Everywhere I download version 43, it's not the real firefox. I wouldn't doubt I put a virus on this test system - lol. Does anyone have an install-able browser that works in XP.Dave

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 07:41:28 am
content: I found a very old version of Firefox on my network server in an old "Essentials" folder. Unfortunately, even though I can ping psu.edu from within the XP VM, the internet speed is so slow as to be un-useable. Internet speed is great in the Windows 10 host. I tired to trouble-soot that, but it really isn't important. Now for next week installing all the XP labview support software and others. Then to create a Windows 7 32 BIT machine. I will have to go on Amazon or EBAY an purchase another $6 Windows 7 license and Office License for $6. Believe it or not those bulk license have always worked for me. You even download the files direct from microsoft aftern they verify the code... So, I'll have to purchase Office Pro for the Windows 7 VM and Windows 10. I don't think I really need it for XP.

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 08:22:08 am
content: Guess what? After all this work, I just realized I installed a Windows XP SP2 version. At least I had a real sealed licensed package and it works. I do not think that is important for the XP Labview files I need to install, but I will find out. Firefox 52.9.0 is working okay, it's not as slow as I thought. Anyway, I doubt there is anyway to upgrade a Windows XP SP2 Virtual Machine to SP3. Microsoft doesn't even have the SP3 available for download anymore.I have a few more Windows XP licenses packages down in the shop, but I bet they are SP2 too. We had instrument that had ETX processor boards that ran Windows XP. I know when upgraded to SP3 they worked like slugs. The ETX processor only could hold 512megs of RAM and SP3 really wanted 1 gig of ram.Anyway, the adventure continues. Next week, I will find out how well the ports share...Dave

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 08:29:31 am
content: Quote from: daveyk on March 07, 2020, 08:22:08 amI have an upgrade CD image named xpsp3_5512.080413-2113_usa_x86fre_spcd.iso. Upgrading is just the same as you would do it on a real machine. You mount the CD or image on SP2 and let it autorun or click on the upgrader. But it probably doesn't matter for your use case.If you search for that filename you'll find an archived copy at web.archive.org. Here's the MD5 sum of the image I have:308245853e5b231343ee17b36ffda1e6 xpsp3_5512.080413-2113_usa_x86fre_spcd.iso

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 09:13:53 am
content: Google led me to this Service Pack 3 update at microsoft.comhttps://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/Search.aspx?q=KB936929

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 09:26:04 am
content: Thank you! It's running now....Dave

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 10:04:15 am
content: Stupid Question. As you told me earlier, once it's perfect, create a backup image of it. What the odds of that backup image working on another Windows 10 machine with VirtualBox on it (i.e., That Area51 laptop I may be purchasing. Would the Windows XP image know that it's on a different PC hardware platform and either not work or require activation again?Well, 05:04AM. I better shut this thing down and get some snoozing in. With computers, hours go like minutes.

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 10:48:01 am
content: Quote from: daveyk on March 07, 2020, 10:04:15 amIt's entirely possible to take a copy of the image on another host and run it there, that's one of the advantages of VMs. However the devil of the move is in the details. There are procedures for activating the image on a new host. You'll find lots of tutes on the Internet.As for XP (or the software on it), or any other OS or software for that matter, becoming aware of the change in host, it depends. The disk is virtualised, the screen is virtualised. so no change can be detected there. Usually if the software cares, it tries to use some immutable key, like a NIC MAC address. But even that can be controlled in the host.I have an activated XP OS which works fine on two machines, although I only use one all the time. At work we once moved a license server that was locked to a NIC MAC address into a VM by cloning the MAC address. The practical consequence of that was the real NIC could no longer be used on the LAN, but the original server was a dual NIC machine so small loss.

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 08:53:15 pm
content: So far, it appears to be working very well.By default, it set up a 10gB drive for XP. If I had to do it again, I would change that to 15 or 20 gigabytes. Drive space is cheap these days. I put Office 2010 on it under XP and XP complained that it was low on drive space (maybe 500 mbs left). It does not look like you can change that after the fact, although it shows something like dynamically allocated, so maybe it address a little if needed, but I do not know how much, if any.I am not sure how much RAM Windows 10 needs to be comfortable. I know XP, SP3 was 1gbs at minimum. If I have a Windows 10 machine with only 16gb ram and I allowocate say 3gB to XP, or a Windows 7 32 VM, that probably leaves 11-12gb for Windows 10. I suspect that should be enough. I am pricing out an Area 51 machine and they want $200 to go from 16gb to 32gb. My M6600 has 32gb in it and it does fairly well with GTA-5. Of course, I would not be using a VM while playing GTA-5 or Civ6.Now, I have to find a Windows 7 32BIT license or CD to create another VM. That machine would get used more than the XP one. I know now to allocate a much larger hard drive space to start with.Dave

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 11:38:30 pm
content: Quote from: daveyk on March 09, 2020, 08:53:15 pmDynamically allocated means that the file that holds the "disk" isn't the full size on creation and expands as needed for the used "sectors". But the limit is still what you set on creation.It is possible to extend the hard disk space. In fact it's easier than with physical disks since there is nothing to copy to a larger drive. First you extend the "hard disk":https://www.howtogeek.com/124622/how-to-enlarge-a-virtual-machines-disk-in-virtualbox-or-vmware/Then in the XP guest you extend the NTFS partition within the "hard disk". You'll need a third-party tool to do this under XP. I think this can be done with W7 tools, definitely with W10.

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2020, 06:37:25 pm
content: The Windows XP virtual machine does seem to work well, but I tried it practically today. I can not get it to share a USB 2.0 or 3.0 port. There are five ports on the M6600 computer. USB Sharing is setup under the VM configuration (but it shows "0 Active"). So in the XP VM, it can not see even a thumb drive on any of the five USB ports. With a real XP Boot drive in the machine, it has no problems seeing any of the USB ports.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2020, 06:51:11 pm
content: Quote from: daveyk on March 11, 2020, 06:37:25 pmI don't think USB 3.0 is going to work.Did you set up the guest USB controller and create a USB Device Filter?

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2020, 07:03:38 pm
content: USB 2.0 would be perfectly fine. The VXI chassis that I talk to only due 2.0 anyway."Did you set up the guest USB controller and create a USB Device Filter?"I think so. It gives you the choice of USB 1.1, 2.0, and 3.0 to share with the VM. Filter...You just helped me tremendously; thank you. No I had not set up a filter. It seems to be needed on a case-by-case attachment to the port. I set up a filter for the NI I/O module and the PNY Thumb Drive. I think that's solved now. Many thanks.Dave

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2020, 10:24:25 pm
content: "Did you set up the guest USB controller and create a USB Device Filter?"I figured out how to get the USB ports to work for a thumb drive. I am having problems getting the National Instruments Measurement and Automation Control software to see the VXI chassis. The NI Resource manager is not finding my VXI chassis. My real XP system on the same bench is seeing the VXI chassis just fine.The NI software is a pain in the ass to get working to begin with, but I am having more problem that usual in the VM XP Machine. I was really hoping I could get it working. The NI software probably needs more direct access to the USB port than what Oracle is giving it.I will keep experimenting.

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2020, 01:30:27 am
content: It's USB packet forwarding so there is no additional access needed for USB protocol compliant devices. But you need to get the IDs right. Some physical devices actually have more than one USB ID.

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2020, 05:23:33 pm
content: The device manager in the XP VM sees the USB-VXI module in the VXI chassis and it is the correct driver version. LabView Runtime 7.0/7.1 installed (as in a standard XP machine) and the software still can not see the chassis.I guess I will not be able to write-off the Area51 laptop - lol. I do have a very light old Windows 10 dell machine, that I think I will turn in to a Windows XP machine just for this app. It would even fit in the same computer case as the big laptop. It's just a slight pain transferring screen shots with a USB Thumb Drive. Damn, I really was hoping to get the lapview (customer Ultrasonic software) working in a VM. I guess it was too much of a hope.