eevBLAB #24 - PCB Wars Altium Circuit Studio vs Autodesk Eagle - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 04:14:26 am
content: Let the PCB Wars begin!Altium Circuit Studio vs Autodesk EagleElement 14 got bought by Daetwyler which lead to them selling Eagle to Autodesk, which then lead to Altium slashing the price of Circuit Studio to $995

author: Barny
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 10:35:28 am
content: That's an interesting topic.I hope the free-hobby versions will still exist.There is an work around for the eagle size limitation.Many people are using special parts with are down scaled (1:2 to 1:10).The output-data get upscaled with the same factor.With this method its possible to produce much bigger PCB's

author: Robaroni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 11:57:54 am
content: Dave,Thanks for the heads up!Altium scares me, I remember when they bought the original CircuitMaker around 2000 or so. I was using CM then and it was a decent program in the Protel platform. Altium gave us this big story how they were going to develop and improve it but just trashed it completely. Then there was their major price cut of Designer which pissed off everyone who paid 10k or so for it. They offered it to me for $2500 several years ago.I'm leery to invest time in CS even with the price drop. You learn these programs and then the manufacturer trashes them of doesn't give support. Look at the CS forum, people complaining about the lack of support and unfixed bugs.AutoDesk might create a better Eagle, not that Eagle is a program that I like, I dumped it years ago but if they could make it a decent program with simulation and drop all the ULP programs for attachments Eagle should have supported themselves it might be something to look into. (Not a 160x100 board for 820 bucks. Rediculous!)Rob

author: Robaroni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 12:02:14 pm
content: Quote from: Barny on July 13, 2016, 10:35:28 amI think a lot of people learned Eagle. Let's face it Eagle was smart, they got people hooked and once you learn a program you seem to put up with all these kinds of things that you would never tolerate otherwise. Do I want an 800 buck program that I have to scale down parts for?Rob

author: trevwhite
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 12:21:45 pm
content: Does Circuit Studio support Altium file formats and have gerber import?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 12:37:05 pm
content: Quote from: Robaroni on July 13, 2016, 11:57:54 amI suspect that's because it simply didn't sell, and Altium probably knew it wouldn't sell, but they said "why not" to Element 14 and it looked good on their market share "pyramid" in the yearly investor report. They wanted to be seen having a product in that mid space.I'm pretty sure this will change now and Altium will put a lot more support behind it.QuoteWill be interesting to watch. Although I think it will take a year or two before we see their real direction.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 12:43:54 pm
content: Quote from: Robaroni on July 13, 2016, 12:02:14 pmI think they were also lucky. Arduino used it, and that was all she wrote, almost every single newbie and OSHW company (Adafruit, Sparkfun et.al) from that point on also used it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 12:55:23 pm
content: Quote from: trevwhite on July 13, 2016, 12:21:45 pmhttps://www.element14.com/community/community/manufacturers/altium/blog/2015/07/24/importing-altium-circuit-studio-files-to-altium-designer-and-vice-versa

author: trevwhite
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 01:11:03 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 13, 2016, 12:55:23 pmThanks for the link, it suggests that you have both applications to start with so that you can make sure the file is saved in the correct format. That is not ideal if I find a reference design with Altium files offered and I only have a copy of Circuit Studio. The price point really is nice if it has full support so that I could load in Altium files such as TI reference designs.

author: Robaroni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 01:58:20 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 13, 2016, 12:43:54 pmI don't know Dave, Eagle was around before the hobbyists started using duinos. I remember 15 years ago when things were a lot more 'lean' in the mid to low priced EDA community and Eagle was giving these, around 10cm square programs, out for free (with their standard yearly award from the same magazine!) and a lot of people started using it. I even remember the guys in Circuit Cellar posting circuits in Eagle. I tried it but it was one of the most cumbersome programs I've ever used, especially coming from Protel. I plugged away, finally threw in the towel.Again, don't underestimate not giving up a program you invested time learning. That's why I tell people, time is money, sure if you're a hobbyist and can play around then free programs will probably work for you. 1600 bucks for Eagle is way over priced in my view.I'll watch CS as I'm interested in how it will pan out. I'll bet at 1K it sells like hot cakes and that might be enough to get a strong community of users keeping it afloat.

author: trevwhite
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 02:41:46 pm
content: Quote from: trevwhite on July 13, 2016, 01:11:03 pmJust to follow up on this. I downloaded the trial and it seems to support some import of Altium but the TI files are maybe from an older version of Altium and the PCB layout are not saved in the version 5.0 binary requirement. Such a shame!

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 05:02:18 am
content: Sooo, what are ppl's thoughts now?I've just started learning Eagle and have found its UI seems to have been designed by Masochists - it's highly capable but entirely lacks any intuitiveness at all, in fact it's highly counter intuitive!I was going to try out Altium Circuit Maker but it does not support macOS - I'm not sure what's worse, a horrid UI on an User friendly Industrial strength OS or a nicer looking UI running on a bloated mess of an OS. Hmmmm.

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 05:38:26 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 27, 2017, 05:13:31 amI think I'm well qualified to bash windows, I'm a former Windows Admin who used to be MCSE certified and still runs a Windows Server at home plus a Linux server too. I'm prolly a bit more Jaded than most as our company SOE is Windows 8.1 *shudders*.Windows 10 is better but the constant forced upgrade BS just a bad joke. I have a Windows 7 VM on my i7 Mac Mini which I use when working from home - 7 is ok but since switching to macOS in 2013 for our home machines, my technical support life has become sooo much easier. I also love the fact that I can leave my Mini running for months at a time without it crashing and it resumes from sleep instantly. If I leave my Lenovo X1 Yoga running for more than 2 weeks Win8.1 will start misbehaving.Back on topic, from the videos I've watched, Altium does seem to have a much more intuitive and commonsense UI than Eagle - not that it would be hard to pull that off considering editing board view graphics would would easier to do on my '87 Amiga 500 using Deluxe Paint!

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 06:43:50 am
content: Linux is just as stable as macOS is on commodity hardware, e.g. my Plex server runs on mint 17.3 on an old Dell Optiplex 755 SFF pc from the Vista era and it's just a stable as my Mac mini.Re Altium, is there a free student version that gives you full product access like eagle does?

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 07:16:02 am
content: Have you tried KiCad? The latest stable version 4.0.6, which I compiled from source, looks pretty good. Some concepts are odd for Eagle or Altium users, like that you have to associate symbols to footprints per board and not in the part data, but this can be a very flexible concept. The 3D view is improved in the latest version as well.

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 07:20:11 am
content: Quote from: FrankBuss on April 27, 2017, 07:16:02 amHi Frank, I'll have a look as I wasn't aware of this product till you mentioned it. I'm a PCB design n00b so I don't mind trying a few different packages to find one I'm happy with.

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 07:27:26 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 27, 2017, 07:00:57 amI'm not sure what ram usage has to do with stability, my Plex server has 8 GB of normal ram coupled with a core 2 quad 2.8 ghz and spends its days transcoding BD & DVD video and streaming around the house - hardly a light weight job. I originally ran Windows 7 and then 10 on the same box but replaced it with Linux as it was becoming high maintenance and I was sick of frequent calls from a cross wife wanting to know why our young kids couldn't watch Peppa Pig and Dora the explorer on our Roku's.We also have rubbish power quality with at least one brief outage per month, as a result my servers both run on a ups, as does my Mac Mini.

author: Robaroni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 11:10:46 am
content: Quote from: FrankBuss on April 27, 2017, 07:16:02 amThat's crazy, a footprint (package) or a group of footprints should always be assigned to a symbol on the schematic side and you should be able to pick the footprint, let's say SMD or thru hole from the schematic.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 11:32:47 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 27, 2017, 05:13:31 amIt's funny to see people bashing Linux. Because windows works for you, it doesn't mean it works for others.I have been using windows for many years but now we are using Linux, at work and at home, and I couldn't be happier.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 11:36:21 am
content: Same people that are happy with this carhttps://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_CinquecentoAre happy with Linux as a desktop, same level of satisfactionLinux is nice, but for Desktop years behind

author: Robaroni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 11:39:07 am
content: I'd like to see what some of the program boards look like that you guys do in some of these programs. I get very nice schematics and decent boards that my publishers like. Here's an example of a schematic I was playing around with. It's a nixie clock ( I love clocks!) that I made from Burroughs tubes from an old HP counter. To keep the board as small as possible I turned it sideways on the PCB side. When the board came back I just broke off the top half and built a simple case to hold everything.Nixie ClockNot a perfect program but it does do presentations well enough. (Labcenter)

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 11:58:59 am
content: Quote from: ebclr on April 27, 2017, 11:36:21 amLol, so according to you, me and my colleague engineers are dumb/crazy/stupid/whatever and our company is wasting time/money?You really think we never tried windows and we didn't select the best tool for the job?Enough said about it, I go back to work (on my Linux system).I wish you all the best with your windows pc.

author: Robaroni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 12:29:29 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on April 27, 2017, 11:58:59 amI think it's what you're used to just like EDA or CAD/CAM. You start using another program and you're all screwed up, it happens to us all. That's why kids learn so fast, they have no preconceived notions about how something should work.I use Windows 7, I know Windows, it's good enough and my programs work with it. Trying to convince someone to switch if futile. If one of these OS's was head and shoulders above rest it would be a different story but that's not the case as I see it.Used to be Apple was better for graphics but there's no clear winner today. EDA's on the other hand are a different story, there are some real dogs out there.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 03:44:04 pm
content: Yawn. Another thread descends into Windows v Linux, with a bit of recommending KiCad thrown in for good measure.

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 10:01:47 pm
content: Sorry chaps, I really didn't mean to start a holy war over operating systems, we all have our personal preferences, just like we do with our other tools, my bad.Anyway as much as I dislike the Eagle UI, I've finally got it to do what I want, so I think I'll stick with it for now. It's crazy that chopping a 16 bit ISA slot part back down to 8 bit is so hard, but all good now.If Altium ever release a macOS version of circuit studio and my eagle licence is about to expire I'll certainly give it another look, the tutorials I've watched impressed me, it's so much more logical and intuitive from what I've seen.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2017, 03:36:58 am
content: You don't need to wait for a mac os Altium, just install VMware Fusion 8.5 Pro, and you will have both words to work on

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2017, 04:19:21 am
content: Quote from: ebclr on April 28, 2017, 03:36:58 amI have a windows 7 VM via parallels but running high resource apps in a VM isnt desirable in my experience.

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2017, 10:54:47 am
content: So I got really fed up with Eagle, it's just complete crap to use .... anyway I finally installed Boot Camp and WIn7 on my Mac and tried a few different Windows PCB design tools.I finally settled on DipTrace, it's fantastic, very intuitive to use and logical. It's auto-router isnt as good as Eagles but I like manual routing anyway and so far my designs are pretty simple.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 10:37:15 am
content: why not use the diptrace version of mac in the first place?also, if you really want you can use different autorouters

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 11:01:25 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on June 20, 2017, 10:37:15 amWell I'm clearly an Idiot, I completely missed that there was a macOS versionI actually installed windows to test Circuit Maker first but still ...

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2017, 10:53:29 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on June 20, 2017, 10:37:15 amLol, I just tried DipTrace for macOS .... it's the windows version running in wine!But hey it works pretty well all things considered.

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2017, 04:17:26 am
content: I personally really enjoy DipTrace, the guys making it have been really pushing hard behind the scenes to add a lot of the more pro-level features that it was missing and needing. It seems like more and more people are getting happy with it (who especially weren't in the version 2.x days). I always found it to be very intuitive and easy to use. EAGLE drove me up the wall. I have designed several boards in it, a few for my old work in particular. I found it super easy to design custom parts which weren't in the library.

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2017, 04:53:52 am
content: Quote from: PedroDaGr8 on July 07, 2017, 04:17:26 amAgreed, making and customising components in DipTrace is so easy, I'm very happy with it.

author: Robaroni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2017, 03:45:28 pm
content: I'll look at it closer, trouble is that there's no simulator. We find it important.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2017, 12:20:11 pm
content: maybe he find that it's a PITA to draw the schematic multiple times (i more or less agree)? diptrace has a netlist export function for spice simulation and you can add spice directives (?) to components in the schematic, though i never tried those functionQuoteat least THEY do itthere are companies that don't bother in the first place..and while we're at it i'd much rather have wined windows versions of kicad or inkscape instead of the abortion that are the OSX builds.if you go to the diptrace forum there has been talk of a native OSX version for ages, but it requires a complete writeup (diptrace is written in delphi)actually there isn't much to complain about it, since when 3d visualization was fixed. using them in multiple desktops arrangements and gestures are bugged, but that's probably wine's fault.

author: Robaroni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2017, 12:32:29 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 10, 2017, 12:17:06 amHave you ever used the advanced simulator in Proteus? It's one of the best I've used and integrating it with the schematic is seamless. You don't have to redraw the schematic, the parts are already in the library too.It's the 21st century all EDAs should have simulation!

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2017, 09:13:36 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on July 10, 2017, 12:20:11 pmOh it's a very very minor complaint, overall I'm very happy with DipTrace, it's great.