Business Insurance - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 11:12:21 pm
content: Business insurance is now my single biggest expense.Inflation in Australia is low, nothing to worry about2020 - $1,2102022 - $1,8842023 - $3,2252024 - $4,4082025 - $6,080And if you think I just need to shop around, I have a professional business insurance broker who is a friend of mine, and most companies don't want to even quote me because they have no idea what I actually do and they don't care.Attached is a quote breakdown from last year, same this year but worse, and more rejections.Never made a claim, ever.What it covers:- Public liability (e.g. video shoots on-site).- Product Liability (someone sues me because they didn't know how to use my multimeter).- Loan coverage (I drop or blow up a $250k bit of kit a company loans me)- Loss of Stock coverage- Theft (lab break in, or lab burns down)

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 11:30:30 pm
content: Wow!But two things stick out:Quote from: EEVblog on December 12, 2024, 11:12:21 pm1: offload the multimeter sales and get a royaly on the name instead of dealing with it yourself2: why should you insure that? If a company lends you equipment for exposure, they should carry the risk themself.Good Luck.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 11:30:45 pm
content: WOW!!! I have been running a small manufacturing business out of my home for 38 years in the US, with no insurance except homeowner's. I have occasionally talked to brokers about just liability insurance, but it was always too expensive. Well, I have never been sued! Maybe I'm just crazy lucky.Jon

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 11:31:20 pm
content: If your existing business is too "different/strange/complex" for insurers tobotherto understand, is there any advantage to splitting it into multiple "simple" and easy to categorise businesses?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 11:39:20 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on December 12, 2024, 11:30:30 pmBecause I would lose way more in profit than what the insurance costs, like orders of magnitude more.QuoteYes, but you never know what a company will do. I don't think it's a huge part of the premium as it's only $250k exposure for them, compared to $20M for public liability and $20M for products liability.It's kinda one of those things they just automatically tack on.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 11:41:10 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 12, 2024, 11:31:20 pmJust to save a bit on some insurance? Nope, you'd get eaten alive with the business and accounting costs.My 2nd biggest expense that is amost the same cost is my accounting costs.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 11:43:15 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on December 12, 2024, 11:30:45 pmNope, not lucky, most businesses will never claim anything, and that's what they count on.I physically won't be allowed on many sites to shoot videos unless I have public liability insurance, so that's not really optional for me.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 11:44:58 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 12, 2024, 11:31:20 pmI can confirm that. If they don't have a clear picture of what you, and they probably don't, they default to overestimating the risk.https://www.publicliability-australia.com.au/public-liability-insurance-cost/

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 11:56:06 pm
content: Annoying that they dont break down the cost attributable to each area of cover, as some creative wording of business type could bring savings.e.g. videographer instead of YTer.Of the things listed, the Youtube aspect seems like a low risk, so PL cover for the recording aspect may be cheaper as it's something they know about.If the bulk is product liability maybe you could spin that out into a different limited company with minimal assets at risk if things went titsup.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 11:59:17 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 12, 2024, 11:56:06 pmI am listed as "Laser And Precision Equipment Manufacturing". No such thing as "Youtuber".And technically, majority of my income comes from product sales, so I guess they deem me to be in the manufacturing/sales business rather than the Youtube business.As for actual "Youtuber insurance", if you want to go to town there is also Media Liability Insurance that can include:- Errors and Omissions- Defamation- Emotional distress (yes, that's a thing)- Copyright infringement- Breach of contractQuoteToo much work just to save a a bit on insurance. Would cost more in accounting and associated business costs.It's technically possible though, because all my product sales are not done under "EEVblog", they are done under my registered business name. I'm just "trading as" EEVblog.Possible to register "EEVblog" as an actual business and just have the Youtube income and Youtube related insurance through that.But it would all get swallowed up with accounting and admin fees. For example, separate tax return, bank accounts, ASIC regisistation, wages, etc etc. And then my insurance broker will try and absolutely convince me I still need Public Liability for both companies.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 01:28:58 am
content: Are you sure your product liability insurance actually covers anything? I looked into getting such an insurance as well and it turned out none of the insurances I looked at actually covers any form of damage. So instead I limited the liability through my terms & conditions as I'm doing business with companies only. For selling to consumers the way to get protection is to put the sales into a seperate limited liability entity. If a lawsuit arrives, determine whether it is worth to settle or just let the sales entity collapse. Bottom line: consult a lawyer! An insurance agent is not the right person to ask.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 03:04:55 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 13, 2024, 01:28:58 amThe only thing I am sure of is that nothing at all is covered if I don't have it.You can never be sure whether you are actually covered unless the circumstance actually happens and the exact details are known. Every case is unique.QuoteLike I said, I would actually pay more that way, not just monetarily, but also logistically and time/hassle wise if I went down that route.And then you are never really guaranteed that some moron still won't come after you personally anyway. Always remember that you can get sued at any time, for any thing, regardess of the actually legailty of it.When setting up my company I was legally advised that Mrs EEVblog should not be director of the company for legal asset protection. Because the lawsuits don't just magically vanish if you shut down the company, they can still come after you personally as the former director. Someone dedicated enough can make your life a legal hell either way.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 03:44:26 am
content: Wow, that upward trend better slow down or stop soon. Plotted on a graph, if that trend continues, how many more years can you afford such or any insurance plan?Soon, no small business owner in any similar field will be able to afford any coverage.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 06:23:50 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on December 12, 2024, 11:30:45 pmDouble check the fine print of your homeowners policy, insurance underwriters have fairly uniform international terms (and with few underwriters thats how the insurance products from different companies all end up looking like each other) which generally exclude all coverage where a business is taking place. Manufacturing in particular they care about and ask questions like how many litres of flammable liquid are stored, do customers visit the site, value of stock held, etc.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 06:26:27 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 13, 2024, 01:28:58 amThe same here and I think it is something European. From a customer I understood things are different in the UK.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 10:41:07 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 13, 2024, 01:28:58 amFTFYWithanyinsurance, thefirstsection you should read is the Exclusions in the full Ts&Cs. Make sure you relate each and every clause toyourcircumstances.I once had a car insurance policy through a major brand name broker (either the AA or RAC). The renewal for the <cough>fully comprehensive</cough> policy added a clause "if the car is taken by someone you know, then you are not insured". So, taken==stolen, somone I know==neighbour (postman?).I asked the broker whether that meant if my neighbour steals my car then I'm not covered. Oh, no, it couldn't mean that. Two days later I got a sheepish phone call stating it meantexactlythat.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 11:30:54 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 13, 2024, 03:04:55 amThat is a situation I would avoid. Especially if I pay for something, I want to have 100% clarity on what is covered or not. Otherwise it is just a nasty surprise looming in the dark while thinking everything is OK. If there is a known liability, then you can act on it.Just having some 'random' insurance and hope everything will be OK sounds iffy to me. Like taking random antibiotics, having sex with 10 random ladies from the street in Thailand and hope the antibiotics will cure whatever disease you contract.QuotePerhaps, but you have a guarantee you won't lose your primary business, trademark, IPs, etc if the sales are in a seperate entity. You pay more, but should also provide a better protection (depending on local law). Over here personal liability only comes into play in case of gross negligence. So if your multimeters have been certified by an able third party and somebody gets hurt by using one, you did everything in your power to deliver a safe product. For sure people can sue you but the chance of success is next to zero. An insurance to cover legal fees is very useful.QuoteYes, there are people around who like to throw frivolous lawsuits around. They typically pick people who are eager to do business but slip-up on the legal part of a deal. I once got a nice piece of cake because somebody was celebrating such a person ran into a tree with a car and died. Still, the person could have avoided all the trouble by being more aware of his legal obligations as he did slip up. But in the end these are just edge cases which can be avoided with a little bit of care.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 12:15:38 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 12, 2024, 11:59:17 pmThe "laser" bit alone sounds expensiveLasers can be scary.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 12:56:32 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on December 13, 2024, 12:15:38 pmYeah.I imagine that an insurance company sees "Laser... manufacturing" and thinks "blinds random passer by resulting in lawsuit".Never confuse "law" with "justice", nor "having insurance" with "getting a payout".Notgiving a payout is what gives insurance company executives a large salary and bonus (see recent events in the USA). If you tell me how someone is rewarded, I will tell you how they will (mis)behave.For the avoidance of doubt, I have never been refused a payout - but I have had to argue.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 12:59:02 pm
content: David: Ins is a scam, they are always there to take your money BUT try to get paid for a calim!Rates in USA similar increases, many US ins firms are closing or refusing to renew in certain areas.Suggest to search for different ins firm, review and change categories of work, assets, deductables,OR protect your assets in different way, relocate your biz in ohter venue, or self insure.Jon

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 01:04:22 pm
content: Quote from: jonpaul on December 13, 2024, 12:59:02 pmCould you elaborate? What does "self insure" mean -- put a few $M on the side as "self insurance"?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 01:10:04 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on December 13, 2024, 01:04:22 pmYup.Insurance is always going to cost more than self-insurance, provided you can afford the "loss". That's an excellent way of realising that you should only take out insurance where you can't afford the loss (or legally obliged). Classic example: "enhanced" product insurance up-sold at a till, e.g for a vacuum cleaner or central heating boiler.But you know that!

author: HwAoRrDk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 01:26:26 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on December 13, 2024, 06:23:50 amOof, yeah, if I were jmelson I would be taking a long, hard look at the policy's terms and conditions to make sure they don't specifically prohibit running a business from home.I was recently getting quotes for home insurance, and one of the very first questions asked was "do you conduct any business activities from your home?". This was defined to be anything that involved manufacturing, handling stock, meeting customers, and something else which I forget. Specifically permitted was typical administrative-type, desk-based WFH activities, though.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 02:30:58 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 12, 2024, 11:59:17 pmBut you don't manufacture - that seems like a wholly inappropriate categorisation - manufacturing seems like a much bigger risk than reselling before you add the "laser" and "precision" parts.Is that really the closest category your broker could find ?

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 02:34:05 pm
content: Once needed insurrance as a part of a freelance gig. I mentioned sattelites.It did not end well.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 02:52:22 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on December 13, 2024, 02:34:05 pmI went through several rounds of trying to find a product liability insurance over the years. One agent asked whether I do work for oil & gas industry. I said I wouldn't rule that out. Next thing I heard was -click-. The person hung up the phone (and didn't ring back)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 03:20:00 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 13, 2024, 01:10:04 pmAgreed. Over here dental insurance is an outright scam. It doesn't cover any of the really expensive treatments like fake teeth. And paying for periodic checks and a (replacement) filling every couple of years is cheaper to pay for yourself compared to the insurance.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 03:32:01 pm
content: Nowadays, mention ANY businsess in a hometo your ins agent, you will loose your exisitng home policy.The regulatory, legal and property risk and peril of even internet sales, consulting, videos is unlimited.Better to protect with carefullty written EULA T&C, terms of use ON EVERY WEB PAGE AND AGREEMENT.Strongly advise to Consult a local lawyer specialized in contract law and liability.Expect to pay $1K..10K for the advise and paperwork.Jon

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 03:34:18 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 13, 2024, 01:10:04 pmSure -- only buy insurance against risks which could financially break your neck, not against minor annoyances. But business insurance, if it includes product liability etc., is clearly in the first category.So I have no idea what jonpaul was getting at with his "self insurance" suggestion. But it's not the first time I have had that problem when reading his posts...

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 03:37:57 pm
content: Self ins: You have the legal and monetary resources to be OK after any incidents.Insurance: You pay them, but after an incident they fond excuses NOT to cover your loss or the deductable is very highAs with any decision its risk vs cost/rewardj

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 03:43:20 pm
content: Self insurance isn't always an option. Sometimes it's a contractual obligation to have actual insurance. At which point people don't even care whether the insurance is any good at all. As long as you can tick the checkbox...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 03:52:09 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 13, 2024, 03:20:00 pmMy impression is that is also true in the UK. I just PAYG for dentists.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 04:45:42 pm
content: Might be helpful if we know roughly how much of your total business the insurance premium represents.Like, if it was $2,000 in 2022, was that 1% of business, then $6,000 now, is that still 1%, or like 2-3%? I would imagine product liability scales roughly linearly with the number of sales of widgets... so sell more widgets and expect a higher premium.Insurers have been really spooked by some big, formerly out of scope claims recently. The one that comes to mind was Securitas having to cover $500m in a lawsuit after their security guard failed to notice an impending building collapse (Surfside apartment complex) and sound the alarm evacuating the residents. Well, I am not an expert in the security business, but I fail to see how a security guard is supposed to realise that a sagging swimming pool deck in one location could lead to the imminent collapse of the rest of the building -- and should have done so within 10 minutes of the first signs of distress. Then you have things like the cladding scandal, where buildings authorities formerly certified many cladding systems as meeting the requirements in law, only to change their mind two decades later. The result is if a building fire occurs with fatalities and your cladding can be potentially blamed, you could face a lawsuit in the hundreds of millions range. What was formerly a policy that covered relatively unlikely risks with relatively normal payouts (building fire = new building, not building fire = $250m lawsuit) is now a huge liability, all because courts have become a lot more liberal with awarding costs here. It has consequences.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 14, 2024, 02:50:13 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 13, 2024, 02:30:58 pmThe category is assigned by the insurer.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 14, 2024, 02:52:04 am
content: Quote from: jonpaul on December 13, 2024, 03:32:01 pmDoesn't hep you with Public Liability.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 14, 2024, 02:54:03 am
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on December 13, 2024, 03:43:20 pmThere are places I have been that will not let me onsite to shoot videos unless I have Public Liability cover, and I show them the Certificate of Currency.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 14, 2024, 02:57:56 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 13, 2024, 04:45:42 pmYes it does increase with increased business income, but I've been flat for about 4 years now.The shitty thing it's based on the entire business income. So Youtube and ad revenue counts toward the calculation for Product Liability for example, it's a rort.I won't say the percentages, but I'm not really complaining that it's going to break the business, just that I find it interesting that it's now my biggest business expense, and how it's increasing WAY beyond inflation. Same with every other type of insurance I have or are involved with (e.g. my lab building insurance), they have gone up similar insane precentages, with no change in other underying conditions. 50% yearly increases are not uncommon.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 14, 2024, 03:01:26 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on December 13, 2024, 03:34:18 pmSome things get tacked on for next to nothing, like content in my dungeon is covered to $22k. You can try and nickel and dime the premium by removing them, but it's not worth it.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2024, 03:07:31 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 14, 2024, 02:57:56 amI don't know the situation down there, but here in California there has been a large increase in the size of many jury verdicts for personal injury and related claims. $1M used to be a commonly recommended or demanded amount for liabilty and umbrella policies, both personal and small business. Now $5M is the new $1M. There was a recent verdict for an injured motorcyclist for $20M.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 14, 2024, 03:09:30 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 14, 2024, 03:07:31 amI don't know, but $10M used be a pretty standard Public Liability value, and now it's $20M.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2024, 05:08:43 am
content: Legal settlement amounts and demands are NOT set by the actual losses.The plaintiff's lawyers will emplory a damages consultant, and use a PI to investigate the defendant's assets The suit claim ~ 2..10X defendant total assets.Defendant's laywers then negotiate with plaintiff lawyers down to a lower amount.In the US certain types of lawsuits allow double or treble damages.Just my experience, In 160 cases, over 20 yrsJon

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2024, 12:12:10 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 14, 2024, 02:50:13 amBut how do you know the person who assigned the category actually understands your business? Just to put this into perspective: Every now and then test houses have trouble understanding which regulations should apply to a product. And sometimes how to interpret the regulations. If this is a problem for specialists working in the field of electronics, then how can you be sure an insurance agent understands your business? As others have pointed out, insurance companies only start to really check things out when faced with a claim. It is 100% your responsibilty to make sure you have the right insurance product.If I where you, I'd consult a specialised lawyer. Bring your insurance policy and products. Show & explain how the products could cause an injury during normal use, what regulations apply and how the products are tested to comply with those regulations. Then ask whether the insurance policy would actually take care of the claimed damages.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 15, 2024, 09:49:53 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 14, 2024, 12:12:10 pmAnd if I did that, that advice would still mean absolutely nothing if I did have to make a claim, it's up to a judge to determine. It's just a waste of even more money.Let's say the lawyer said this is BS and doesn't cover me, I then have three options:1) Go an tell the insurance company I want to modify the terms. LOL, good luck.2) Go find another insurance company, and LOL good luck again, I showed you the price comparison. Half the companies will not touch me at all, and the other half will cost more and almost certainly have the same conditions. Rinse and repeat going back to lawyer and repeating step 1.3) Go without insuranceI guarantee you that if you pay a lawyer to tell you if you are going to get shafted on a contract, they will find ways they think you can get shafted, guaranteed. I'm not dumb enough to play that game. It's bad enough that I have the play the "pay your insurance money and cross your fingers" game.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 15, 2024, 11:14:56 pm
content: Just got my new CoC, and official business description is:"Design Engineering Consultancy and Laser and Precision Equipment Manufacturing Importing and exporting".So I think they have separated out the Youtube side, and the manufacturing/sales side.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2024, 01:05:34 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on December 13, 2024, 03:44:26 amThis is the case already with cyber insurance. Most small businesses can't afford it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2024, 01:13:05 am
content: That inflation is crazy.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2024, 01:39:15 am
content: lol wtf lasers, that sounds like some way to raise the cost, start talking about lasersan actuary will appraise it as a death star

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2024, 02:13:33 am
content: FYI, my broker just told me:Quote

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2024, 03:18:51 am
content: I feel like this over paying has something to do with lasers. It sounds shady if they can't provide you with a list of things it covers. Because it might be covering a plate steel CO2 cutter LOLI noticed whenever the word laser is involved in a professional setting (with like lawyers) things get stupidreality : presentation remoteexpectations : icbm interceptorhere it seems to be a 'catch all' for immediately 'raising the stakes' ( a scary word)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2024, 04:53:13 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on December 16, 2024, 03:18:51 amNope, it's just the closest category they had that included "precision machinery". The broker tells them exactly what I do and they pick the best category that fits, in this case "precision equipment", i.e. multimeters.The insane insurance increases in recent years have been standard across the board for all industries. Car insurance, house insurance, business insurance, life insurance etc.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2024, 06:37:26 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 16, 2024, 04:53:13 amIt seems to be the case of "which was is the wind blowing today?". I just got my car insurance renewal from my current insurer (for agreed value, not market value) and even though I got a 15% discount last year, my renewal this year was $50 more. I'm happy to wear that.Although, I switched my home and contents insurance to the same provider as my car, it cost me about $100 more compared to last year. My previous insurer wanted to sting me an extra $1100 just to renew the same policy. Needless to say, they can stick that.