Are manufacturers of high quality test equipment disappearing? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: belasajgo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 11:44:42 am
content: One year ago as I decided to renew my "lab equipment", I was looking for high quality test equipment manufacturers and I found only a few companies that make nowadays high quality (and safe) lab equipments, that an electronic engineering student can afford. (Very expensive high quality test equipments still exist on the market, but a student cannot afford to buy one for personal use.) First, I planned to renew my lab power supply, my analog oscilloscope, my function generator and my soldering station.After a few days reading reviews of different products, I realized that many of the high quality test equipment manufacturers from Europe disappeared from the market in the last few years, and some of the existing ones lowered the quality of the products (to reduce the production cost - they moved the production lines to other countries, they use lower quality materials, ...).After a "research" of more than two months (reading reviews, watching teardowns, ...), I bought a TTi (Thurlby Thandar Instruments) lab power supply - made in England, a Hameg Combiscope (analog/digital oscilloscope) - made in Germany (but not manufactured anymore), a GW-Instek function generator - made in China (but looks pretty good and works well), and a Weller soldering station - made in Germany.I also plan to upgrade my digital multimeter and clamp meter in the future, I already decided that I will buy either Fluke or Agilent meters. My digital multimeter and clamp meter that I own now are both from Axiomet, a chinese brand, they work good but from the point of view of safety, they could be much better (but they are good for low voltage measurements).In the future I also plan to buy a digital oscilloscope, I like the Hameg analog/digital oscilloscope that I own because of the analog mode and the CRT display, but it is heavy and not as portable as a digital oscilloscope. I am looking at the Rigol digital oscilloscopes, I think they are pretty good and also affordable...What other manufacturers of good quality (and affordable) test equipments do you know?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 11:55:05 am
content: Quote from: belasajgo on October 06, 2013, 11:44:42 amhow do you define "high quality"?If you are talking Agilent quality, then they have never been affordable for the student.We are in a golden age now of affordable test equipment, and there are plenty of makers of reasonably high quality test gear, at least for the price.You have already named some. Rigol are arguably #1 in affordable test gear now.GW-Instek and Extech are some others.Siglent are coming along pretty well and aren't a bad choice.Depends on what gear you are talking about.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 11:59:50 am
content: This is an impossibly broad question -- you need to break this up into "what are the good oscilloscope brands", "what are the good PSU brands", etc etc. These are separate questions, all already covered in many threads on this forum. And this is all assuming that all brands are either pure awesome or pure awful, which is dramatically simplistic.Also, why are you telling us the country where your lab equipment is made? It turns out that buying from a "good" country only guarantees that it will be expensive. If you buy some random Chinese gadget from dealextreme, then good luck to you, but buying a Canon/Sony/Nikon/Rigol/Asus/<any brand you've heard of> branded product made in China is a completely different story. These companies can, if they choose, set up their own quality control in the factory. This incurs some expense, but far less than the expense of getting the product made in your own country.Trying to simplify these decisions by judging countries or entire brands is a recipe for suboptimal decisions.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 12:01:29 pm
content: And don't forget Amprobe as en alternative to FLuke for multimeters. They seem to sometimes rebadge osme Uni-T meters, but I'd rather have their customer support and warranty than Uni-T's.

author: belasajgo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 12:05:49 pm
content: When I say "high quality", I think about the safety of the test equipments in the first place, and about precision and build quality in the second place.

author: grego
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 12:41:02 pm
content: Quote from: belasajgo on October 06, 2013, 12:05:49 pmAgreed - but I also throw "customer support" in there as well. A quality built product with no customer support isn't worth it because if you have a problem you're done.

author: belasajgo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 01:39:40 pm
content: @rs20:You're right, it is a broad question. But I thought I will find out (generally) about other manufacturers that are not so well known in Europe. I did not think about manufacturers of specific products - but more about manufacturers of good and safe instruments, as example GW-Instek also makes lab power supplies, oscilloscopes and other measurement instruments - and as I saw, all instruments they produce ar safe and reliable.I think that the country of production of the instruments is somewhat important, because as example in Germany the people who design and assemble the instruments at a company that also sells the own products and that represents the own brand, are paid better than the people in some big factories somewhere in the world, where the factory is hired by different companies for manufacturing different products. If it wouldn't be a difference in quality and reliability, people would not pay more for a product that was made in Germany or made in England. And there is also the concern about the safety of the products, the products made in Germany must comply with the safety regulations of the country. Many cheap products from other countries do not respect any safety regulations...From what I saw until now, I think that most of the test equipment manufacturers either make only safe and high quality products (like Fluke, Agilent, Gossen Metrawatt...), or make only cheap low(er) quality products (like Atten Instruments, Axiomet, ...). I think only Uni-T has both of the products, good ones that are expensive but affordable for everybody, and cheap ones, where you get what you pay for...

author: olsenn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 01:58:01 pm
content: Honestly, I think how long a company has been on the market to be a highly overrated consideration point. I mean, I understand not wanting to buy a company with literally no history of successful products; however, with companies like Rigol, you have to say that after over 5 years of releasing non-stop stellar products, that company is trustworthy. Don't complain that it's a Chinese company (who cares where it's made -- the Chinese are just as smart and competent as the rest of us) or haven't been around for 20+ years.As Dave said, I think this is a golden age for hobbyists to acquire test equipment. Don't worry, your Rigol/Instek/B&K/... equipment is safe and reliable.

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 02:36:44 pm
content: Quote from: belasajgo on October 06, 2013, 12:05:49 pmWhat are your safety concerns regarding function generators, oscilloscopes, etc? I don't understand this.

author: zaoka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 04:38:32 pm
content: Hameg scopes are now made by Rohde&Schwarz, its even better quality than Hameg.Weller.... forget it, JBC is far better and superior in all ways. If you prefer German get ERSA.

author: belasajgo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 05:48:56 pm
content: Quote from: sync on October 06, 2013, 02:36:44 pmMy safety concerns were regarding lab power supplies and multimeters in the first place. I once saw a new lab power supply catching fire without a reason (no short-circuit or overload), since than I am much more careful when buying electronic appliances of any kind. And about the user safety regarding multimeters, thanks to Dave's reviews and teardowns, I know what I have to check to see if it is a safe device or not.Quote from: zaoka on October 06, 2013, 04:38:32 pmI looked for JBC soldering stations back then, but I could not find a retailer/reseller in Germany that would have sold one to me. The resellers that are on the JBC website told me that they are selling these products only to companies, so I can't buy one from them, unless I order it through another company or reseller. And to keep things simple, I then decided to buy a Weller soldering station, it meets my requirements and I did not have the problem finding a reseller which would order a JBC station from them and re-sell it to me... The Ersa stations are also good, but I found the design of the Weller soldering station better for my needs.

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 07:21:19 pm
content: Quote from: belasajgo on October 06, 2013, 05:48:56 pmYes, the safety of multimeters varies a lot. Also in the past. I think you can get easier a decent and safe DMM today. Lab PSUs are also problematic. There are a lot of junk available. Regarding DSOs, generators i really don't see a problem. They have only a small PSU and looking at the teardowns from Dave and others i think most are safe. I don't remember one which isn't. I'm much more worried about consumer electronics.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 10:46:01 pm
content: Quote from: olsenn on October 06, 2013, 01:58:01 pmStellar products? Rigol has made some decent products considering for the price, but few would qualify for stellar (maybe their latest generation of scopes). The DS1052E had some issues with firmware bugs and low quality knobs and rotary encoders, the first generation DG1022 had crappy software, we've seen some QC issues in their DMMs and so far people have discovered three issues with the DP832, at least one of which is being fixed. Not deal breakers in general, but not what I would consider stellar.How long they've been on the market may give an indication of their experience. For example they've only designed one generation of spectrum analyzer and two generations of DMMs, so teething problems are more likely than if say Agilent would release a new spectrum analyzer.Quote from: belasajgo on October 06, 2013, 05:48:56 pmThe Rigol power supplies have some overheating issues, but I don't think any of them caught fire.Quote from: sync on October 06, 2013, 07:21:19 pmScopes can used to measure mains or other potentially dangerous circuits. Most are rated for something like CAT II 150 V. Granted, it's not as much of an issue as for DMMs.

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 10:59:12 pm
content: Quote from: alm on October 06, 2013, 10:46:01 pmRight. But then it's the measurement which is dangerous, not the scope. I see no safety difference between an Agilent or a Chinese scope. Except a not grounded scope of course.Would i trust a cheap high voltage probe? Probably not.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 11:13:33 pm
content: So if a cheap DMM explodes when exposed to mains voltages it's the measurement is dangerous, not the DMM? A scope can very well be dangerous if it provides insufficient insulation between user and signal. Not that I'm aware of a scope having this problem, but safety can definitely be a concern if you actually use it at its rated voltage.

author: Lukas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 04:57:40 am
content: If you're looking for a PSU without any bells and whistles (USB, color LCD) that looks like it's from the 80s:http://www.statron.de/products/multi-source-devices

author: ivaylo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 08:04:36 am
content: I used to have a beautiful Siemens scope 20 years ago. Philips used to make some. Hitachi did. So where are they? Those weren't Tektronix for sure but not only did the job, but were also well built (still selling working on eBay). So I renewed the hobby recently, looked around and see every Chinese garage makes one except the old reputable companies which used to do a good job at it. At least this is how I understand the question.

author: belasajgo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 08:36:02 am
content: Thanks for the answers and recommendations! There is also a second part of "equipment safety" that concerns me, not only the safety at high voltage measurements, but also the general safety of the instrument while they are powered on. As I was looking at different manufacturers (and brand names) of instruments sold in Germany one year ago, I found the "PeakTech" brand, they have some low- to mid-end instruments at affordable prices, but on a german forum I found a few people that had real safety concerns regarding these instruments, because they found some free-moving tin drops (from the soldering process) inside different PeakTech instruments (so I think this was a general quality issue regarding all instruments they sold). And if such a tin drop gets into the mains input module and makes a short circuit, I don't even want to think about what can happen... Otherwise the PeakTech intruments are not bad, they are at least as good as other instruments in that price range, but with so bad quality check issues, I would be afraid to use their instruments.

author: psykok
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 09:00:05 am
content: QuoteJBC is hard to find in Europe and I agree with you the design of Erso is not good as Weller.I have search recently a new soldering/unsoldering station end I have bought again a Weller ... because you have a very wide choice on ebay and for a good price in used condition.Alex

author: manzini
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 09:48:45 am
content: QuoteExcuse me, I find JBC supplies in Europe very easily. In Barcelona area (Spain) even in any small town shops.JBC soldering, is a local brand here (I bought them for 25 years.... phillips miniwatt, me with hair, ohhh golden ages O0 )I've always had soldering items & parts from JBC, for many years, precisely because they were cheaper and easier to find than hakko, weller, etc.You can check European sales representatives here:http://www.jbctools.com/distribuidor.php?continent=Europe&pais=the current sales chief is Magda Sánchez:http://www.linkedin.com/pub/magda-sanchez/10/699/128(public linkedin profile)Well, this is my firts post after months of reading I don't know if this post can be considered spam or help in this forum, sorry then. But I am very curious about, the good prestige that have my old, cheap (in my area) and real good soldering tools.

author: FoXX
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 10:14:35 am
content: QuoteThey did terribly on translating, try the English buttonhttp://www.statron.de/products/multi-source-devices

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 11:04:41 am
content: Quote from: alm on October 06, 2013, 10:46:01 pmTo be fair, even Agilent have had their fair share of issue.Their new 3000X series scope blowing up, and firmware issues and now some soldering issues in the 1272A meter.No manufacturer seems immune from issues.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 12:15:41 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2013, 11:55:05 am+1Just any old timers EE when they were student back in 70s, 80s, 90s and maybe early 2000s, buying a brand spanking new scope even a crappy one, that to be owned & used at home personally was a wet dream for most people back there.

author: belasajgo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 12:52:04 pm
content: Yes, but back then, the instruments were made to last forever, so they were worth the money... I work even nowadays sometimes with instruments that are more than 20-25 years old and are working very good, like 25 years ago when they were made (I like the old CRT scopes and analog multimeters), but I am almost sure that the new digital oscilloscopes and digital multimeters won't last more than 10 or maybe 15 years.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 01:33:08 pm
content: Quote from: belasajgo on October 07, 2013, 12:52:04 pmYour argument has fatal flaw, which is the price when those old instruments were made.Just at picked randomly the popular old analog Tek 465 scope which still used until today, the new price at year 1973 was $1725 , or at 1977 was $2145.(Source ->Here)Those are olde days dollars, with inflation the equivalent dollar in year 2013 is about $6,400 to $16,700. (Source ->HERE, there are many inflation calculators out there, just randomly picked one from Google)Now tell me, which "normal as most population" of EE students can afford buying a $6000 dollars worth of scope to be brought back at home just to look at blinking leds signal ?Now "IF" Rigol was asked to build a $6000 dollars "casual" speed scope say like 100 or 200 Mhz but very reliable, do you think they are capable of delivering it with that price ?Looking at the your arguments were made, I guess you are not hesitate at all to spend say like $1000 for a DMM or > $5000 for a scope right ?As the old says, ... "Money never lies"

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 01:49:14 pm
content: Quote from: belasajgo on October 07, 2013, 12:52:04 pm... and are partially unsafe. I have some older equipment from HP and others. The protection against the mains voltage are bad. Lot of exposed mains connections. To wimpy wiring. I don't trust a 0.3mm^2 cable to withstand mains. They will burn - fire risk. Exploded X caps or non X rated caps across mains. Switches rated for 125V used for 230V. Not enough creepage distance. And so on. I check every older equipment i get. I have fixed some issues with thicker cables and a lot of heat shrink. Some equipment are only connected to mains when i use it, because the fire risk is to high in my option.

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 02:00:12 pm
content: Quote from: belasajgo on October 07, 2013, 08:36:02 amPeaktech just rebadge equipment from different manufactures (like Voltcraft, PCE, ...). Judging from reviews and forum posts the quality varies a lot.

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 02:34:58 pm
content: Quote from: alm on October 06, 2013, 11:13:33 pmOf course not. A DMM must not explode. Unfortunately there are a lot of unsafe DMMs. It's good that they are banned here (EU).QuoteYes safety is a concern. But the is a big difference to a DMM. A scope is grounded. This prevents that the signal is exposed at the scope. But is dangerous itself. You can easy blow up the probes or kill yourself. But when this happens it's not the fault of the scope.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 02:56:25 pm
content: Unsafe DMMs may be banned in the EU, but I'm guessing cheap DMMs are still readily available. For example I can't imagine those cheap DMMs sold by home improvement stores being sufficiently safe for their ambitious ratings.One example of a safety issue in scopes: some early Tek TDS-200 got recalled because the ground wire to the BNC connector was of insufficient gauge, so it could vaporize under some severe overload conditions. This would float the BNC shell and allow it to reach dangerous voltages. Dangerous measurement or user error? Tek didn't think so.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 03:20:36 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 07, 2013, 03:13:17 pmThis is the theory, but is it actually the case? Do those meters indeed meet IEC61010 and have sufficient clearance, fuses and other protection devices for their overvoltage ratings? Did they finally get around to admitting that these cheap meters are not suitable for mains voltages and rate them for something like CAT I 60 V (if such a thing exists)?

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 05:04:56 pm
content: Quote from: alm on October 07, 2013, 02:56:25 pmWhat an irony. Tek is not a cheap Chinese manufacture. And yes, that is unsafe.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 05:40:51 pm
content: Quote from: alm on October 07, 2013, 03:20:36 pmThe cheap CE meters certainly don't always meet their CAT rating safety requirements. They get pulled eventually from the European market, through the RAPEX notification system, but first, someone has to report the meter as unsafe through their national consumer protection agency.http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/safety/rapex/alerts/main/index.cfm?event=main.listNotifications&CFID=2782908&CFTOKEN=25139351&jsessionid=089c36a9786534d41a9a7b58455e611c6962

author: belasajgo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 08:25:08 pm
content: I asked once the manufacturer of a cheap chinese digital pocket multimeter, why do they put the CE mark on a product that is clearly not compliant with the EC directives. Then they told me that the CE mark on the multimeter stands for "China Export".

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 09:46:08 pm
content: Quote from: manzini on October 07, 2013, 09:35:53 pmthat's beyond amazingly clever.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 09:14:51 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 07, 2013, 03:13:17 pmThe person liable to ensure that it does meet the requirements for CE marking is the person or entity who "places on the market". That would be the person who imports it rather than the end reseller.Quote from: Fsck on October 07, 2013, 09:46:08 pmThat is why I have seen a very expensive injection mold tool modified - the CE mark was stamped into it and had been distorted when the designer was fitting it in.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 03:19:03 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 08, 2013, 03:16:22 pmwell, I was thinking of it as China Export to be used for their export products to fool people into thinking it was actually CE.

author: manzini
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 04:04:14 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 08, 2013, 03:16:22 pm#mojo-chan, hehehehe. But the question is from 2007:http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+WQ+P-2007-5938+0+DOC+XML+V0//ENThe intention is to avoid being accused of counterfeit, and one is free to use the symbols to consider. One is not guilty of confusing their customers.As very many private language schools that use seals & signs that mimic those of the University of Cambridge, but if you look carefully, not that of Cambridge (maybe Hogwarts School of Witchcraft). That's just playing to the confusion for their own benefit. Any astute bussinesman started China Export sign time ago.Is not a dummy question, millions of items are on europeans mains and their owners sleeping peacefully in their homes. Maybe risk ? maybe safe ?My CE fake laptop chargers that I loved and cost one third, are far from textiles as a precaution, and seller & buyer are happy.But there is a fair use of a symbol created to give a sense of security. I know it's a bit cynical because I think with the honest manufacturers who invest their money in meeting norms but....... I'm enjoying my low priced items.

author: smoothtalker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 04:12:59 pm
content: Quote from: Fsck on October 07, 2013, 09:46:08 pmThat is misrepresentation and that is illegal.. what a shame.

author: belasajgo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 07:23:17 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 08, 2013, 03:16:22 pmYes, I know that officially there is no CE mark for "China Export". It would not bother me much if the "China Export" mark would be different from the official CE mark, even if the difference is only that little space difference between the C and E letter. But another problem is that many products have the "official" CE mark on them, not the other one with less space between the letters, and they then say that it is because of the "manufacturing tolerances" when printing that on the product...

author: tonybarry
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2013, 01:20:30 am
content: QuoteHi Bravo,I bought my first scope in 1979, it was a Trio CS1560AII for AUD 750. A first year electrical apprentice earned just under $150 a week at the time. So that is a 20MHz scope with two channels for about 5 weeks' wages.By comparison the DS1054Z series are around AUD 900 and they are 4 channels with 50MHz bandwidth and awesomely out in front of the old Trio box. A first year electrical apprentice earns these days about $500 a week. Less than two weeks wages for twice as many channels and a whole heap of stuff tacked on.Yep. This is the right time to be upgrading the instrumentation.Regards,Tony Barry

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2013, 01:41:22 am
content: Quote from: tonybarry on October 09, 2013, 01:20:30 amTony, thanks for the real life experience and illustration.Hell, just make it 5 weeks wages as the old day, imagine what can you buy with that apart from the scope ?Func. gen ? Bench PSU ? Top tier DMM ? Cool soldering station ? etcThe OP should start buying stuffs instead of whining pointlessly.