:: DSO ranting ...  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: 3roomlab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2014, 08:20:49 pm
content: large expensive scopes are using larger LCDs anyway ...with advancements (or rather off-shelf availability) of more high speed devices, wouldnt it be nice if RIGOL SIGLENT etc ... start to make scopes that plug into HD displays instead? so a user interface and BNC input is all thats left and it sticks onto the top of any display.... (32inch TV ? ... muahahahaha !!!)the renderer chip inside could be sub-HD instead of HD ... 1280 x 800? 1680x 1050 ? i am assuming that to put a HDMI / VGA output on the back ... they have to pay HDMI trademark fees? very hefty fees? (edit :: it seems they dohttp://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/terms.aspx... USD 10k ?) if you make something commercial that can plug into USB ... you pay fees to "USB" consortium or something to do that too ? (edit :: and they got problems too it seems ...http://hackaday.com/2013/10/22/usb-implementers-forum-says-no-to-open-source/...http://www.usb.org/developers/vendor/.... USD 4k) ...but still ... this could be a viable ... thing to make for someone who is competent enough i suppose

author: Thilo78
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2014, 08:56:23 pm
content: Very interesting proposition, actually.But there are some questions, at least for a noob like me:a) Wouldn't it only make sense if you increased the displayed information, like more than ten divisions on the screen?This might imply more memory requirements.b) Is there a market for scopes with, let's say 22 inch displays? Would anyone consider putting such a big screen on his bench?I don't think that licence fees of any kind keep Tektronix or Siglent or others from building large screen scopes.To me it seems more like usability and keeping devices portable.And with that said, the 8" screens, that Siglent (?) provide seem to be the widely accepted limit.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2014, 09:03:24 pm
content: Displayport is royalty free. and you can run 4K over that an mulitple screens.... muhahaha dual 4K 65 inch monitors on my scope

author: 3roomlab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2014, 09:14:23 pm
content: yes i think so,lotsa lotsa ram . it is probably why, all the very high end models employ an actual PC inside, [DSO front end] -->  -->  ... then again ... we do have a emerging market of new mini ITX sized motherboards flooding the IT scenei ranted this because in another thread i was intrigue at lecroy DSO, and they just run it from windows embedded inside. and from my previous interaction with large format audio mixers, they run multiple windows embedded motherboards inside too, large format lighting controllers like avolites/GrandMA/wholehogs also do it this way ... so all we see outside are sleek displays + knobs/sliders etcas for market ... with proper display dithering of  --> [actual view] ... i dont suppose any user would complain seeing a more detailed waveform without having to zoom in?even @ 720p ... 1280x720 ... plug it into an old sub HD 32inch TV ... it will definately take away the squinting at some point@free electron ... the display processing will beat the DSO signal processing ! whoever designing this will probably "drop-dead" at designing the display outputcome to think of it ... if DP is free ... then apple turn it into thunderbolt ... WTH is apple doing monetizing it?edit**so it seems, almost every concieveable means of data connection of a equipment to another equipment will need to carry/buy a license to use a certain data protocol ... from all that i could see, USB is the cheapest and free if you use/borrow adafruit etc VID ...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2014, 09:24:16 pm
content: It is more complicated than that. Many scopes use special video hardware to show the traces. AFAIK that is where the screen size limitation comes from.

author: 3roomlab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2014, 09:29:48 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 30, 2014, 09:24:16 pmyea i know its complicated ... the idea above is most certainly a dead beat lol ... unless ... they interface it to a PC.even if the full GUI is HD and the trace/waveform is a 720p window in it ... that data rate is going to be ... phewhmmm ... maybe an embedded AMD mITX ... these things could drive HDin an exploratory sense ... it is plausible (maybe 30 updates a second? )

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2014, 09:42:26 pm
content: Function keys would make no sense then. You would need mouse or display with touchscreen to preserve same functionality. Scope would completely lose all portability, and probably video output over cable would introduce noticeable noise. As for me this idea seems only viable if keeping internal display and adding additional video output.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2014, 09:44:26 pm
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on December 30, 2014, 09:29:48 pmAnd here you go, expensive Agilent scope which runs on windows.

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2014, 09:47:00 pm
content: DSO manufacturer would need to implemented some processing solution to convert waveform to high res display. This would cost some NRE. Then other manufacturers could copy that solution. Risky business.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2014, 09:55:48 pm
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on December 30, 2014, 08:20:49 pmShhh.There is already enough "one upmanship" betweeen manufacturers.Last thing you want to start is another Spec war.VGA outputs are available on a few.I guess HDMI will be next.Check out the 48" LCD driven by a Siglent SDS3000 series at Siglent reception:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-products-sds3000-series-oscilloscopes/msg558936/#msg558936It's sold to western markets only as LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000 series.From the datsheet:External Monitor Port Standard DB-15 connector (support resolution of 1024x600)http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/wavesurfer-3000-datasheet.pdf

author: 3roomlab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2014, 10:00:59 pm
content: no no no .... no mouse (keyboard shortcuts? yes, 1 key recall a macro to auto setup interface? yes). direct knobs and buttons for all most used features is the key (actually, knobs/rotary-encoders is what is missing in all 1 box USB interfaces), otherwise, it is just another USB DSO ... which the key of the rant is ... not what its intended to be ... not another USB DSO... and so ... internal display is a no no ... because the objective is connect to large large displays (care for portability is sadly not in my rough ranty idea sadly ... free_electron happily agrees with 2x 65inch display)touch screen is very very nice to have, many LCDs on sale now incorporate built in GUI (mostly for windows, with drivers even)but of course ... this is just a rant ... ranting about why a possibly better USB DSO is not made in this way. you know like alot of audio DAWs which started at first all inside software, then the industry started to make external control surfaces, so that the actual faders/knobs can be directly accessed. which i think ... in terms of the "road map" USB DSO is taking ... is still "valve technology" even though there is already so much that could have been done, maybe they are adopting the apple ideology, sell us iphone 1 first ... next year ... i will show you iphone 2 .... lol... but of course this is not mobile market, products dont move as fast ... either way ... its sad

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2014, 10:27:21 pm
content: Yeah well (support resolution of 1024x600) doesn't fit with 16:9 does it?That is VGA as spec'ed in the datasheet.Maybe there is screen setting in the menus, but thesupport resolution of 1024x600doesn't include an "up to" so I would expect not.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2014, 10:47:46 pm
content: There is another Siglent DSO offering in development, on display at the recent Munich show, maybe they will include external monitor support?

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2014, 11:52:14 pm
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on December 30, 2014, 08:20:49 pmNot really.Not as nice as you seem to think it would be. First off, as has been mentioned, there are already scopes out there that can be plugged into an external monitor, for a larger-screen view. And not just the SDS2000 that Tautech mentioned. Others have VGA, DVI, and it wouldn't shock me to find HDMI either. And those can be very handy, in the proper context.QuoteThe problem you're neatly avoiding is that you just completely destroyed any hope of portability. In some situations, that's pretty important... or even critical. And current scopes with external monitor support serve both functions... they can still operate portably. You want to throw that away.And sticking your BNC connectors onthe top of a screenmakes no sense to me. You really want a bunch of cables draped over the front of your display?QuoteI will agree that a touch-screen CAN be nice... if it's a 7-10" screen sitting on the desk in front of you. A 24" screen on a positioning arm, hovering over your desk? Not so much. Or to be blunt, that would be a real pain in the (arm) to use all day. How would you possibly use a 65" touch screen? Heck, just reaching up constantly to push the buttons and tweak the knobs on your baggage hanging on the side of a big screen would get oldreallyfast.I'm not at all opposed to exploring alternative approaches to distributing acquisition/control/display elements of instrumentation, but what you've come up with has ignored all the many ergonomic problems and UI issues you've created. As is, I'd have 0 interest in your 'dream machine', because to me it's more of a nightmare.Sorry.That doesn't mean though that you don't have the germ of an idea, so keep remolding and polishing it. Thinking outside the box is a good way to start reshaping the box.

author: 3roomlab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2014, 12:12:21 am
content: LOL ... ok reaching 65inches over to get the knob ... not good ... wires like a willow tree ... not good definitely ...BUT ...WAIT ...! *shazam* !what if the controls are like thishttp://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/traktor/dj-controllers/traktor-kontrol-x1/and the A/D box could be placed anywhere (of course, on the spot on the shelf marked for DSO as well) ... and of course since it connects to a PC ... it would look like this ...http://www.meilhaus.de/default/pix/a/n/1269523391-6826.jpgand then that box of A/D is something that could stick on anywhere else (including the side of a really large screen) ...ok im daydreaming sorry....so we can have a 1ton super shielded A/D, 1 inch thick triple shielded coax ... here is where steve jobs will say ... "welcome to the future of DSO UIs ... with version 9.9x ... you can now plug in a traktor X1 and control all DSO functions remotely ... the new UI will also store macro functions to step thru 999 user programmable memory scenes to perform handsfree cyclic tests with unlimited storage of test results to HDD ... the 6 flash hot keys can be programmed to perform zoom, ... "come on mark ... buy it ... BUY IT !nah you are right ... it is a crazy idea lol