Are vortex-coil motors fake? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2019, 09:47:28 am
content: Or are they the next step in making more efficient electric motors (which of course would be great for saving the planet with more efficient electric cars)? I saw this video hereand it looked interesting. Then I remembered something. The coil configuration he's using is similar to coils I've see in quack-science videos that claimed things like perpetual motion, or even this one website which claims that the coil configuration itself amplifies mystic energies and provides healing powers (having nothing to do with electricity at all).So that leaves me wondering, is that one video I linked to above which looks legit, really just a carefully crafted video intended to make fake science look real? Or is that motor really running as well as it looks like it's running due to the shape of the coil combined with the signal being sent to it from the function/signal generator?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2019, 10:35:07 am
content: No idea what's going on with the solenoid coil. The toroidal helices I don't see any reason they'd be anything special; if they are in phase sequence then the field will just be a regular multi-pole, "with extra steps" (of the sort a conventional radial-field motor produces). The complete absence of core means torque is utterly pitiful.Between the air bearing and the possible support from the solenoid coil (if there's any bias through it), magnets can be levitated, just fine. Absurd RPMs are readily possible, though I'm guessing part of his problem with starting fires had to do with switching losses (there's a lot of leakage inductance on a winding like that, with such poor coupling to the magnet). There's almost no torque on a rotating sphere so it doesn't really mean anything.All you need to demonstrate an induction or synchronous motor is a rotating magnetic field. Demonstrating a practical one that delivers maximal power given its size and other constraints, requires actual engineering (if you can imagine).Tim

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2019, 03:30:56 pm
content: One thing to remember is that induction or permanent magnet motors can have efficiencies in the 95% range. So anything claiming to improve efficiency needs to be either talking about chasing single digits percentages (more likely a fraction of a percent) or needs to be more specific about what operating conditions they are trying to improve: such as efficiency at very high or low rpm or maintaining efficiency across a large load range.Take a look at current EV motor efficiencies, they are really good and generally the losses of the battery, charger, and inverter are on the same order.Anyone claiming an unqualified 10% improvement in efficiency is at the very least leaving out a lot of information.

author: DBecker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2019, 05:24:55 pm
content: I was expecting some absurd claims, but that was just a straight-forward video of a guy having fun with a high frequency, very low torque motor design. It's just the right design to spin a sphere (ball bearing? rare-earth magnet?) to an extremely dangerous RPM.I doubt that efficiency is anything special, just like no one is pitching the efficiency of their Halloween Tesla coil.

author: beduino
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2019, 10:21:52 pm
content: Quote from: Ben321 on November 04, 2019, 09:47:28 amIt is a pity, modern Youtube (Google?) AI algorithms do not show more often this great video made... 44 years agoby Professor Eric Laithwaite: Magnetic River 1975

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2019, 10:50:37 pm
content: I remember watching his Royal Institution Christmas Lecture on linear motors as a kid. It seemed like magic back then.

author: beduino
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2019, 10:46:15 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on November 04, 2019, 10:50:37 pmStill experiments like those will surprise most of the people not involved in physics with this cool levitation while moving using eg. 3phase electromagnets on closed loop trackI've quite nice Siemens Synamics V20 inverter 230VAC -> 3phase 230VAC and also 3 transformers 230VAC->12VAC, so it will be fun play with levitation while moving without using any Hall effect sensors.

author: beduino
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2019, 10:51:42 am
content: Quote from: Ben321 on November 04, 2019, 09:47:28 amMagic smokeat the end of this video seems to be real

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 08:41:35 am
content: Quote from: beduino on November 05, 2019, 10:51:42 amEven so was the portion of the footage of the ball bearing spinning real or fake? I've seen too much stuff on Youtube where the "related videos" section shows links to videos on perpetual motion and stuff, meaning Youtube's algorithm recognized the current video was based on perpetual motion theories. And that makes me call into question the truthfulness of the current video, because I know that perpetual motion IS fake.And my gut feeling (combined with videos in the "related videos" section for this video) is that something just seemed a bit "off" about that video. For one thing, a claim of 500 THOUSAND RPMs sounds fake immediately. That's why I decided to ask here if the type of motor being shown in the video was real, or just some more perpetual motion hocus pocus.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 01:20:01 pm
content: I'ld say the resulting (far) field of the fancy coil arrangement is in the vertical direction and the magnetic ball is spinning around a horizontal axis. Since the fan control PCB will just supply two uni-polar phases, the inner (more or less conventional) coil and the outer one are wired so the two outputs of the fan controller will produce magnetic fields in opposite direction. Since the inductivity of the air-core coils is probably quite low, it's well possible to reach 500k RPM with a tiny ball magnet, suspended on an air cushion. A single, primitive air coil (or just an inductor of an old speaker cross-over), controlled from a totem pole or bridge amplifier would have done the job as well.I've reached 180kRPM without any difficulty with a "real" rotor, suspended on two hybrid ball bearings, driven by a special three-phase coil arrangement. I could easily have gone higher but since this rotor was part of a 5kW turbo generator prototype that was designed to spin at 160kRPM, and I didn't want to destroy it due to the centrifugal forces, I behaved myself and limited the speed there.Neverthesess, spinning magnets at that high speed can be quite dangerous. They are made of brittle, sintered material and the application of a nickel plating (for increased corrosion resistance) makes them appear much more rigid than they actually are. Assuming the magnet in the video is 6mm in dameter, 500kRPM means it's got a circumferential verlocity of almost 160m/s (this is almost half the speed of sound). If the magnet fractures at such speeds, its shrapnels can cause significant damage or injury. It's a lot of fun playing with such setups, but especially in cases like this where the rotational axis may be unknown / undefined, it is difficult to take protective measures (shields) and stay out of the plane of rotation.

author: beduino
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2019, 11:28:50 pm
content: Quote from: Ben321 on November 12, 2019, 08:41:35 amDifficult to verify this just by watching smal ball without any markers and some of those videos are made just to show something useless to make as many as possible people to wonder what it can be and make a click, so there are many other more interesting videos to watch