Lets Design An All Electric Pickup Truck - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2011, 02:38:46 pm
content: Greetings EEVBees:--To discuss the political and policy aspects of EV design and implementation please use this previous thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=5278.0--It has occured to me that perhaps the emphasis on MPG without regard to vehicle weight may be leading us into a technological cul-de-sac. Perhaps it would be better to design and build an All Electric SUV or Pickup Truck first, and then see if it can be scaled down, rather that trying to scale the Electric Car Up. The reason for the "All Electric" is to avoid the design constraints im posed by a fueled engine. The need for utility vehicles with a higher GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) is not going to go away. Try moving a couch or a roll of carpet with your Prius. People need dual use vehicles, hence the SUV, which is neither fish nor fowl, not a very economical car or a very convenient truck, but it serves a lot of families very well. I solve this problem by owning a small car and a small truck. Both are used, both get good mileage, and I do all of the repair and maintenance work myself, which most people cannot. I have read in this very blog people saying they saw a solitary person wastefully driving an SUV. Sheesh, I hate to think that when I drive my unloaded Nissan pickup to Home Depot to get lumber, that there is some eco sh*t box driver saying to himself; "See there goes another idiot driving more vehicle that he needs".--And so, I would like to engender an engineering discussion about what an Electric Pickup Truck is likely to look like. I have included some links below to show what has been done recently. To start the discussion, without getting too far down in the weeds; It seems to me that the way to go is (1 Carbon Fiber wherever practical, (2 Wheel Hub motors and (3 Lithium Ion Batteries for now, but perhaps a hydrogen fuel cell later. (4 Some way of addressing the aerodynamic concern and still allowing ease of loading. Does it have to be a Van (SUV) rather than a pickup truck? I hope not. But, I do not know. I am asking you.--What I would like to hear is less about will not work, and more about what will work, if you see what I mean. I used to work for a Used Car Dealer (an honest one believe it or not). I would tell him about the great muscle car I was going to build, and he would say "make em naked". And I would say "What?" And he would say "As long as you're dreaming; "Make em naked." So lets not worry too much about costs right now. Lets make em naked.Excellent rundown on pros and cons of wheel hub motors:http://machinedesign.com/article/hub-motors-for-all-electric-vehicles-still-have-some-technological-challenges-to-overcome-08Ford F150 Electric Pickup Truck with wheel hub motors:http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/05/driven-protean-ford-f-150-all-electric-pickup-truck.htmlReview of Battery Technology:http://web.mit.edu/angles2008/angles_Radu_Gogoana.html--The BMW i3 Carbon Fiber Electric Car:http://www.econifty.com/news/bmw-opens-carbon-fiber-factory-for-electric-vehicles"Business is never so healthy as when, like a chicken, it must do a certain amount of scratching around for what it gets." Henry FordBest RegardsClear Ether

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2011, 03:48:36 pm
content: The problem with EVs is batteries are crap expensive short life energy storage devices.Anything you do to a vehicle to make it more practical with a crap expensive short life energy storage device can equally be applied to a vehicle with a conventional energy storage device (gas tank) and EVs will continue to loose.If you want the future to be EV then go research/develop batteries and my prediction is you won't make any significant break through, just small incremental improvements.If you want a sensible future go research/develop nukes and synthesis of chemical fuels for transport using the cheap energy they provide.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2011, 05:31:25 pm
content: It's possible to get a 2011 Ford Super Duty up to 35 MPG. Adding hybrid technology should get it into the 40s easily.http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31195

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2011, 07:06:31 pm
content: Hybrids work well around town and city centres. If you are regularly driving a pickup around a city centre, then strongly consider a different sort of vehicle! Outside cities, doing relatively high speed (>40mph) extended duration driving with little change in speed, then the electric part of the drivetrain is essentially dead weight, and you have just added 200kg of batteries to an internal combustion driven truck.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2011, 08:11:19 pm
content: Dear Rufus:--Thank you for your thoughtful post. Yes, we already know about the problem with the batteries. Notice I mentioned the possibility of a hydrogen fuel cell. The premise being, that as an intellectual exercise, we are trying to design an "electric pickup truck" and not an ordinary fueled vehicle using syn-fuel, with a network of nuclear reactors thrown in for good measure. If you look to the beginning of this post, and the link noted there, you will find the thread where your bait might catch more fish. I might even support your contention in that thread, but not this one. No doubt if I were trying to design a door bell, you would say "Just have them knock.""I am looking for a lot of men who have an infinite capacity to not know what can't be done." Henry FordBest RegardsClear Ether

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2011, 08:32:44 pm
content: Dear NiHaoMike:Thank you for your interesting post. I guess I should have said "All Electric Pickup Truck". I have corrected my original post to reflect same. The reason for "All Electric" is to avoid design constraints imposed by having to provide infrastructure for a fueled engine. Nonetheless the article you cite is quite interesting. Possibly the numbers could be improved even further by using a turbo diesel power plant, EPA willing."There are no big problems, there are just a lot of little problems." Henry FordBest RegardsClear Ether

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2011, 08:47:26 pm
content: Dear Zad:--Thank you for your post. By "Electric" I did not mean hybrid. I meant "All Electric". I have corrected my original post to make this more clear. But what you say is, regrettably, true. That being said, if the vehicle does not require an engine bay, the design and the aerodynamics may be somewhat simplified."Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason why so few engage in it." Henry FordBest RegardsClear Ether

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2011, 12:47:56 am
content: check this thing out...1989 GMC Electric G-Vanaside from the pricetag, this builder had a lot of things right imo. take a proven truck/frame platform and build it to suit your concept of a product. no sense in re-engineering the wheel...i know he is correct about replacing the electrolyte in ni-cads, but i'm not sure how this effects the service life. regardless, 56 miles on 20 year old batteries is impressive!the only thing i have to add idea wise is placing the batteries in the bed/floor as did the van, but in a easily removable racked enclosure. the owner can extend the range by having 2 battery banks on hand to swap out as needed. one charges while the other one drives. if these enclosures became standardized, you could even lease your batteries. charging stations can handle the dirty work of owning, maintaining, charging and recycling cells and you just stroke a check every month for the service & kWh. my 2¢ fwiw.-sj

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2011, 01:40:55 am
content: Dear Sonicj:Thank you for the very helpful post. Given all that the author had to say. I would guess his average range unloaded was somewhere between 30 to 40 miles. Not to shabby for a heavy van with the motor removed and and electric power system put in. I would estimate that the same batteries and inverter could probably at least triple the range in a "designed" carbon fiber electric truck with wheel hub motors. I still have a lot to learn about AC and DC motors for vehicles.--I did think about one additional wrinkle for wheel hub motivated vehicles. The mechanical brakes could be carried internally, needing only a shaft connecting to the wheel hubs. This should reduce the unsprung weight somewhat. Bombardier has had success with this design on some of their off road vehicles.--I did look into "Who Killed The Electric Car" which was recommended at the bottom of the article you provided. I found it to be a really paranoid tin foil hat documentary. The charges that the Oil Companies suppressed a working electric vehicle, are about a believable as the charge that they murdered the inventor of the 600 MPG carburetor and destroyed all his work.--In any case, thanks for the very interesting post."When I can't handle events, I let them handle themselves." Henry FordBest RegardsClear Ether

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2011, 02:19:58 am
content: What is the motivation for an all-electric car, truck, or whatever? Why is such a thing sensible, and what are the benefits? Specifically, if we supposed everyone were driving electric cars, trucks, motorcycles, whatever--what would the fuel source be?

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2011, 04:08:19 am
content: Dear IanB:--I want to thank you for your helpful post. It has help me to clarify my thinking, and I do understand and agree with most of your attitude. Specifically, my interest in an "All Electric Pickup Truck" it to get rid of all the compromises and design restraints that result from using an envelope that was originally designed to accommodate a fueled vehicle, as has been the practice for, lo these many years. An all electric vehicle (car or truck) need not necessarily have a big long snout where the fueled power plant used to go. For a long time the "Horseless Carriage" looked a lot like a horse carriage, with no horse and a steam, gas or electric engine sitting on top. I would like to quantum jump this stage in the design process. Doing away with unnecessary design restraints, gives the engineer and or designer more freedom.--As for an "All Electric" whatever; that is a rather more general question than I am prepared to answer. Space and time limitations being what they are.--As to whether or not it is sensible, I share your perspective as to its dubiousness. Nonetheless, you may have noticed that there is quite a bit of market activity in this area lately. Even though most of this activity is admittedly driven by the government and the Eco-Rangers. Sensible or not it it taking place. And, arguably there are some legitimate uses of quiet vehicles with no tail pipe emissions (yes, we know there will be emissions, if the power plant burns fossil fuels).--Now, I can see no sane reason to suppose that everyone will be using electric vehicles anytime soon. But, I will assume your senario arguendo. My answer would be the Traveling Wave Thorium Reactor, or if we are lucky perhaps one the Fusion technologies will prove useful. But I am as truly as ignorant as the next fellow with regard to prognostication and prophecy."He was born ignorant, and has been losing ground ever since." Fred AllenBest RegardsClear Ether

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2011, 05:19:29 am
content: Quote from: SgtRock on October 24, 2011, 01:40:55 amCF is a very different type of material... i love the stuff, but i don't know that i would be comfortable with my vehicle being made out of CF when every other vehicle on the street is made from steel. im not even comfortable with it on my bicycle. if we were talking about airplanes or race cars, sure, weight is a huge factor those applications, but we're talking about a work truck though... weight is essential to offset the changes in weight distribution/center of mass, load transfer when braking, and likely a very long list of other anomalies that will arise when adding a heavy payload to a uber lightweight vehicle. just my 2¢.mechanical brakes aren't needed with BLDC motors. braking can be handled through commutation. shorting all of the phases together will stop the motors in a emergency situation. a mechanical e-brake could be fitting somewhere else for redundancy; like the rotor shaft.yea, i'm pretty sure i didn't finish the movie... the producers have another documentary thats out or almost out or something. i don't think its quite as black helicopter as the first one.-sj

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2011, 07:31:26 am
content: Dear Sonicj:--I thank you for your 2 cents. The only reason I consider mechanical brakes a design constraint is because virtually all governments require a mechanical braking system as a back up at this time. And 4 wheel drive independent suspension wheel hub drive has a lot more tricks than just anti-lock braking; I.E. no need for an axle or differential, no trapped torque, electric positraction, and extremely positive steering control. With good suspension tuning they should handle just as well as a conventional wheel, even though the unsprung weight is greater.--I should add that we have been assuming "Fly By Wire" all the way along. Two additional things to add to the list are probably, electronic power recovery shocks, and for obvious reasons, airless tires.--Now, with regard to carbon fiber, there are two considerations; failure and vehicle weight. I am sure that given proper engineering carbon fiber vehicles will not be any more prone to sudden failure than metal vehicles. If your vehicle weighs 2 tons and it collides with a vehicle weighing 4 tons going the same speed, it not too difficult to figure out which one is going to get pushed. This could be cured by driving a heavier vehicle or carrying 2 tons of sand bags in the bed, ha ha. Given sound construction, seat belts, air bags, and crush zone you should be just as safe as if you were driving a Mercedes in anything but a high energy head on flamer.--Please post anything else that might occur to you."Marconi invented the radio but he had to wait years and years till anything decent was on." Johnny CarsonBest RegardsClear Ether

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2011, 09:35:35 pm
content: hmm... looks like 20+ years is typical for vented nicads.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93cadmium_battery_(vented_cell_type)