Dissolving soldering tips by Weller? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 11:34:42 am
content: I bought a small and handy 25W solering iron by Weller, model SP25N, it's very nice and ergonomic, the LED lights on it also makes quite a difference in my dark and sad room. The soldering iron came with the usual rounded tip, which after 2 weeks of normal use looked like this:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15526481/pic9/IMG_3393.jpgI've never experienced this with other soldering tips, this one seemed to literally dissolve slowly in the molten tin. But I didn't have a wet sponge or a copper wool for cleaning, and I was using lead-free solder. I thought it had just been mistreated, and I didn't care much for it as I'm no fan of the rounded-tip shape. So I ordered a new set of soldering tips (MT2), this time the chisel shaped one. I also decided to buy a new stand for my iron, with a sponge and wool, I also got some proper solder (63/37). But again, the tip began to dissolve or disintegrate, this is how my tip looked like just an hour ago:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15526481/pic9/IMG_3396.jpgAnd after soldering two diodes and four caps on a veroboard:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15526481/pic9/IMG_3395.jpgHow is this happening? Is the Weller tips just of a very poor quality/alloy? Should I just expect to keep burning tips or should I get a new brand of irons?

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 12:12:59 pm
content: That shouldn't happen, even the cheap Hakko clone tips last longer than a few joints!What sort of flux are you using?

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 12:28:54 pm
content: Jeepers. I can only imagine that you must be using some incredibly powerful acid plumbers flux or something.Flux for electronics is simply pine rosin with some various agents to make it into a useful consistency, it just removes oxidation, helps wetting.Plumbers flux is an acidic paste to eat away at the surface of pipes, it's not for electronics.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 12:48:55 pm
content: My MT-1's do that. When it happens, I put the thing in a drill chuck and file it back to a point and finish off with a couple of grits of ever finer sandpaper. I can greatly extend the life of a tip this way, otherwise it's too expensive. If the flux is causing this, then blame Radio Shack because that's where I get it. Personally I think Weller is doing this on purpose myself. I sent them an email quite a few months back about how to extend the life of these tips and got no response. If I ever buy another soldering iron, because of that response, it won't be a Weller.

author: Neverther
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 12:52:21 pm
content: Looks like stickwelder, sure its not faulty and depositing the tip on to the joints via electrolysis?

author: gaijin
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 01:12:58 pm
content: Tips are usually plated copper.If the plating is damaged the copper will alloy with your solder eroding your tip.Metcal had some pdfs on extending tip life.http://www.okinternational.com/metcal/english/globalnavigation/applications/hand-soldering/extending-tip-life

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 01:14:43 pm
content: Copper bits dissolve in tin/lead solder, just a fact of life. The Weller's bit will be iron plated copper, the iron plating is there to stop the bit dissolving but if it is breached then the bit will start to dissolve.Filing the bit will extend its life, in fact before iron plating bits was common this was done all the time.QuoteUsually true, but not universally so. I have a tin of "plumbers" flux but which is very clearly colophony based - I do use it (sparingly) for electronics and it's fine.EDIT: I've just re-read the original post and realised I didn't really notice the timescale you were talking about. Yikes, yes you do have a problem somewhere - that first picture looked like the tip of my 25W Weller but the one I've had in the iron 25 years (OK, that iron doesn't get used all that much).Iron overheating, too aggressive a flux and physical damage to the tip - or possibly all three spring to mind.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 01:26:48 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on May 04, 2014, 12:12:59 pmI'm only relying on the multicore flux in the solder itself, I've used the same for a long time with another soldering iron and I haven't seen any problems on that tip.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 01:48:47 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on May 04, 2014, 01:26:48 pmhttp://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062715Good solder, the tips just suck. Failure by design?

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 02:13:10 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on May 04, 2014, 01:26:48 pmWell that seems fine.Ummm. I'm completely at a loss on that. For such a massive destruction of the tip as appears shown in the second image in what you say is just a few joints... I just can't imagine.Maybe the photo is presenting an illusion, but it looks like it's literally eaten a chunk out of the middle of the tip.If it was me, I'd be getting on to Weller about it, Weller is supposed to be a respected brand.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 02:16:53 pm
content: Are you soldering on 500 C or something?

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 02:18:13 pm
content: Quote from: sleemanj on May 04, 2014, 02:13:10 pmQuote from: liquibyte on May 04, 2014, 12:48:55 pmYou don't have enough money for them to care. I tried.

author: gaijin
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 04:04:02 pm
content: The iron posted is nonadjustable at 400C.Did a quick search and it looks like your not the only one having issues with this iron and tips.It's looking like Weller's "hobbyist grade" irons/tips are terrible.If your going to be soldering a lot I think it would be worth going with a new iron if possible a temperature controlled station.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 04:27:12 pm
content: Mine's the SP23L, basically the same thing without the LED's. I do think my next iron will be a temp controlled something or another but it won't be a Weller. It solders a joint fast if it's at full temperature and that's great. I have nothing against Weller irons themselves but if I ask a question through their site and get no response at all, not even an acknowledgement, then I'll take my business elsewhere. This is indicative of the overall attitude from companies lately it seems.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 04:33:43 pm
content: Sorry to see, but those pics are typical of tip wear, given the time frame, its accelerate wear.Avoid temp unregulated irons, unless you expect to discarded it after one project. I keep temp unregulated irons in my emergency toolkit because they are dirt cheap, lightweight, and I don't do solder repairs often. You'll get as good performance as this Weller with a no-name brand or a Velleman brand iron, they run in the USA between $5-15.If you want a truly portable iron, there are new models that are fully hand held with temp regulation built in such as the Hakko FX600 or 601.Although the tips are plated, poorly done ones are uneven so it wear out faster at the thin end, leaving it open to erosion. That "U" shaped erosion at the tip is typical of poor tips, excessive heat [>= 400C] and probably high pressure placed on the tip against the item to be soldered [ the tip platings soften at high temps and are more susceptible to physical scouring, accelerating wear further].Grumpdoc's link covers all the tech details and you can find more in the archives on soldering.FWIW I have soldering tips over 10 years old that get used monthly, and look nearly new, follow the 'life extending' tips suggestion linked, but in addition I keep my station at 300C or less and no more than 350C as its adequate for nearly all SMT and through hole work. Shut or lower the station temprather than let it idle between use, as high heat kills tips.For large ground planes, I use a cheaper unregulated iron that I can sacrifice, yet still has its original tips. A single no-name station in the USA with tip cost less than a single true Hakko tip.

author: AmmoJammo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 09:08:42 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on May 04, 2014, 04:33:43 pmNormal wear? he said he soldered "two diodes and four caps" with the second tip... and it looks brand new to me, besides the crater in the tip!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 09:41:49 pm
content: Quote from: AmmoJammo on May 04, 2014, 09:08:42 pmWhen I was young & poor I used to turn down copper billet offcuts into tips for my Weller iron. Even unplated pure copper lasted much longer than that - I'm talking days, not joints!Yeah, that's not "normal" tip wear by any stretch. Well, maybe if it's idling at 600~700oC...(I know, I know, once the cladding is breached iron-clad tips wear much quicker than straight copper tips. Still, the cladding should last months, not minutes...)

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 09:52:30 pm
content: The pictures don't look right.In the first picture, the whole iron seems to be corroded and oxidized right up to the handle.In the second picture the tip does not look right. Normally the tip would be a different color from the main shaft of the iron due to the fabrication process, and it would be pre-tinned.In the third picture with the cavity in the tip, where is the solder? In none of the pictures is there any sign of solder or tinning.Everything about this just looks completely wrong.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 09:57:03 pm
content: FWIW, Weller's QC has been terrible over the last 8 years at least, and I've had issues with tips in another series' as well (LT series in particular).Specifically, the plating is poorly done (thin and not adhered well), causing premature wear. Seems those from Mexico and Bosnia are the ones you have to watch; German and Japanese manufactured tips don't seem to have these issues.But I must admit, even the bad ones I've gotten aren't to the extent the OP is describing in that short a period of time (assuming everything is on the level and proper materials and procedures are being used).

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 10:39:45 pm
content: I had a Weller "Firecracker" that lasted me a few years. I think my tip ended up looking like that, only because I was little then and every time I needed to clean off the tip, I would use an utility knife and scrape the crud off.

author: Sbampato12
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 11:51:17 pm
content: I don't know much about the 'low cost' unregulated solder irons from Weller.But I have a Weller solder stations (WD1) and for my hobby I had it about 5 to 6 years, and didn't need to change a tip. I have two solder irons one is the WMP for the SMDs and a bigger one, wich I can't remember the code, and they still with the original tips.And on my previous work, and my actual one, we have Weller stations too. The tips last more than a year, on low use, but at least turned on one time a day.I saw a low cost solder station on the electronics fair, wich is being manufactured in china, they look worse then the Germany ones, but not like this tips showed.The tips on my Weller like someone told before were made in Japan an Germany. But I don't think this is the cause of this problem.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 12:49:59 am
content: Quote from: Sbampato12 on May 04, 2014, 11:51:17 pmI've the same station (WD1), and run both the WMP and WSP80 irons. Zero problems with the NT series tips for the WMP (tip COO = Japan).It's the LT series I've had a few issues with (tip COO = Bosnia). Not with every tip, just some, that the plating was thin and came off of the tip. In one case, plating was so bad, it was flaking off before it was ever removed from the baggie it came in. Only the bad ones have been tossed (~3 out of 10), all others are original when I bought the station in 2008, and used when needed (most still look like new, a couple haven't ever been used). Never ran into this with prior Weller stations.Other's have indicated they have had similar issues with these (LT series) on occasion here in the EEVBlog forum (and others).Reports of those made in Germany, such as the RT series (and newer series' for the irons used with the WX stations), aren't indicating any issues. Have heard and read of issues with those made in Mexico (along with the stations) FWIW, but haven't had direct experience.

author: Dago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 04:20:53 am
content: I had this happen with a Weller WHS40 tip that came with the station. It lasted a few hours.The weird thing is that tips bought afterwards (from Weller) worked fine and did not exhibit this behaviour

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 08:20:24 am
content: Quote from: IanB on May 04, 2014, 09:52:30 pmJust to address your comments. Yes, the iron is oxidized almost all the way up to the handle, but it's not corroded in any way. It just appears a lot darker in the photo. Both the solder iron and the tips are silver-metallic in color, and they both get that black-blue-yellow tinge to it after maybe an hour of use. The solder don't adhere very well to the tips, which makes it very easy to wipe off on the wet sponge. That's simply what I did, wiped it off before taking the pictures.These are original tips by Weller made in Germany, I'll see if the same problem persists with more of these tips (bought 6).

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 09:17:19 am
content: I'm not a very experienced solder, so I'll follow the links and tips given and hope the tips won't keep failing like this. It was just very unusual as it hasn't happened to any other brand of soldering irons I've had. Might be the time to invest in a good station though. Thanks for the feedback.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 10:00:14 am
content: The iron is from the red series, which is the lower quality wellers. I had experience with tips like this from my pre professional time. They die very fast, very rapidly, and it doesn't really matter what you do. Somewhat better, 230V irons are the WM20 or weller mini 2000 series, but I dont thin they are manufactured anymore, they have been replaced by the 2012 and other, which are again red, and lower quality. Unfortunately, they still eat the same tips, so no improvement there.What I would do, if I'm stuck with the iron: There is no point to buy these weller tips. They will be bad quality control, and they will die fast. Maybe not in 1 hour, but in 20, if you get a good one. Just but any tip which is compatible, buy it in bulk. I went to my local store, they had something from metal for about 2 Euros, I could use them for some soldering jobs. But I used it very rarely, and by the time I needed to solder every day, I had a decent station.The red series is the "IKEA free wrench in the box". It should not be considered for any serious work.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 02:17:49 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on May 05, 2014, 08:20:24 amThis is completely wrong. The tip of a soldering iron should become "tinned", which means the solder wets it and coats it. Once a tip is tinned it should be completely impossible to clean the solder off it. Wiping the tip on the sponge should produce a shiny silver layer of wet solder.Maybe the iron you have is not designed for soldering? Maybe it is designed for some kind of craft use like wood burning?

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 03:35:43 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on May 05, 2014, 02:17:49 pmYes, you're right. If I take a new tip and apply solder right away, it does get tinned. But I have to do it right away, because the tips will go black from oxidation rather quickly. I've tinned a new tip and we'll see if that helps.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 06:41:07 pm
content: Should have spent that $15 on a Yihua like uncle Dave.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 05:04:55 am
content: An awful lot us dumped Weller around 2002 or 2003 due to QC issues. Disintegrating tips was one of them. I've never seen one go quite THAT quickly before, but I'm not surprised because their tips have been hit or miss crap for a while now.The same group owns Nicholson tools. They recently moved their file production to Brazil. Once again, they've turned it into absolute crap. Nicholson files are now useless, unless you need to knock off a corner on a block of cream cheese. For best results and longest tool like, I suggest you warm up the cheese in the microwave for a few seconds to soften it first. Their wood rasps are complete GARBAGE too, now. They used to be very useable. At least you can still buy world class wood rasps from plenty of other sources. Decent files are getting harder and harder to source.But I digress. If you buy enough tips, you'll eventually find a decent one. Still, it's hard to believe that you could kill a tip that quickly without doing something profoundly wrong...even a crappy Weller tip.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 06:07:08 am
content: While there's definitely something weird about how fast those tips are disintegrating, another factor may be that years ago lead-tin solder for electronics used to contain a small percentage of copper. The purpose was to minimize the rate of copper dissolving from soldering iron tips.I have no idea whether lead-free solders have the same problem, or whether they contain any copper to reduce the dissolving of tips. I'd have thought that with the higher temperature of lead-free solders, the problem would be worse?With iron-plated tips the purpose is the same - prevent the copper from dissolving into the solder.Also if that iron is not temperature regulated, maybe the mains voltage where you are is higher than the iron is rated for, and the iron is overheating?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 03:07:58 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on May 06, 2014, 06:07:08 amWasn't this before any iron plating was being applied to the copper bit though (very early days)?Quote from: TerraHertz on May 06, 2014, 06:07:08 amSome do, though not much. SAC305 for example is 96.5% tin, 3% silver, and 0.5% copper.

author: Fokusscience
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 08:31:57 am
content: the same thing happened to me :I have a 40W weller WHS40 and everything was fine about 3 Jears the tip was Perfect .Then It began to get bad so I changed itI was very happy it last that long !And after 2 weeks the new one was bad again !I always used The same Solder the same flux andwith the third tip the same happened last week ! after only 3 Week'sso it looks like a few tips are good and a few are bad ?I bought new tips and I will make pic's if it gets bad againFokus (I hope my english(and this post) is not too bad)

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 06:53:20 pm
content: Continuing the saga...So I followed the advice given in the thread, and read the links. Took my time to properly tin the tip and get a nice coating, but with no avail. It lasted about 10 components more, after an hour of use it looks like this:The message of this story; do not buy this model series of irons. I'll have to go shopping for a proper station.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 06:57:12 pm
content: Just get yourself a nice, used 936 and stop screwing around with slip shod companies cruising on a name that was built when they actually cared. It's a shame, but my time and money is too valuable to waste on nonsense like this. I wish they'd get their act together...but they won't, so oh well.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 06:58:16 pm
content: Personally I think the irons are fine, it's the tips that suck. I don't think it's a QC problem either, my hunch is that it's failure by design to make you buy more tips.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 07:21:32 pm
content: heres my question. i have the same weller at home, and one at work. the tips do not last long. they dont deteriorate nearly as fast as the ones youve shown, but none the less, they only last a few months. ive made replacments out of copper before, which only seem to last half as long (i do dress and file and re-tin the tips on a regular basis) after reading this thread the other day, i saw talk of stainless steel tips. i turned one on the lathe today, put it in the iron, and afer 5 min it still wouldnt melt solder. i waited abotu 10 min and it was melting solder easily..... at the base of the tip, but still cold out to the very tip (the working area you need to be hot)so, copper = sucks = disolves in lead.stainless = sucks = dosent transfer heat.what is the best material type to use?

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 08:03:50 pm
content: Quote from: deth502 on May 08, 2014, 07:21:32 pmI'd personally try tungsten, you can get pure tungsten welding rods (the green color code, not sure if you'll be able to cut it with the lathe, it's hard shit). But give it a try! I can't imagine that deteriorating, and the thermal conductivity is high, around half that of copper. The thermal conductivity of stainless steel is even 10 times lower than that of tungsten, thus 20 times lower than copper.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 10:49:42 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on May 08, 2014, 08:03:50 pmpure tungsten is actually not that bad, and they do make "free machining" tungsten, but at over $70 shipped for only 8" of it, throwing out the entire iron and buying a new one looks like a much better option, lol.ill have to see if i can scrounge up some scrap from somewhere.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 01:39:24 am
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on May 08, 2014, 06:53:20 pmJust out of curiosity, did all the tips come from the same source, and roughly the same time?Wondering if they've all been from the same batch, given just how horrible they've been.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 01:44:58 am
content: The tip that came with my iron did this and was many months old before I ended up needing to use it and it did this. I've gotten tips from Mouser several times over a year at least and they have all done this same thing. As I said, I just decided to file and sand them back to a point until they're too short to use. I hope to have something else soon enough but for right now this works for me.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 01:49:05 am
content: Quote from: deth502 on May 08, 2014, 07:21:32 pmGet a brand of station, like Hakko, that doesn't make crap tips, and stop worrying about it. To make tips properly, you need to be able to do plating. By the time you've spent time and money making tips and plating them properly, you could have just bought a decent used station.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 01:56:39 am
content: Quote from: liquibyte on May 09, 2014, 01:44:58 amI've had a few bad ones in the LT series mine uses, but not all of them, and even the bad ones lasted longer than these.Damn, Apex...Granted, this is the bottom of their product lines, but a bad impression such as this would likely turn those customers into someone else's customers. Think they'd realize this, but maybe they'll have to learn the hard way.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 02:05:53 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on May 09, 2014, 01:56:39 amI'll never buy another Weller. I plan on saving up for a station but it will probably take awhile. In the mean time I'll just keep re-doing the tips. I don't use it that often but when I do, it's usually all day.

author: TheMG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 02:18:48 am
content: Yikes, I've never seen soldering iron tips wear out that quickly! Even the Radio Shack brand non-temperature-controlled iron I had back in the day (which got REALLY hot), didn't wear out the tips anywhere near that fast.I currently have a Weller WD-1 soldering station and the original tips show no sign of wear after several thousand solder joints.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 02:37:23 am
content: Quote from: liquibyte on May 09, 2014, 02:05:53 amI imagine your experience has left something well past a "sour" taste in your mouth, and can certainly understand your position.FWIW, to put things into perspective in my case, my failure rates with the LT series have thus far been ~30% (defective out of the bag, causing premature tip destruction). NT series, zero % failures (still using the original tips purchased 6 years ago). There may also be 3rd party alternatives from companies such as Plato that can solve the problem. Do keep in mind, this is from a rather small sample size (3 out of 10 tips for the LT series).Hakko makes excellent tips, as do most of the other name brand manufacturers. Only had issues with recent Weller tips, and only recently relatively speaking with one series (been using Weller for ~30 years, issues only showed up for me ~ 6 years ago, and it's no where near the 100% premature failure rate you're seeing).

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 02:52:58 am
content: I was thinking about an X-TRONIC but haven't really done any research on them yet. I have to admit, they do look good though. I know I certainly won't be spending more than $200 tops and not even that if I can get away with it.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 03:52:13 am
content: Quote from: liquibyte on May 09, 2014, 02:52:58 amAfter new or also willing to consider used?Can find some great deals on eBay for name brand stations if you can be patient.Used Hakko's currently listed as examples:FX-951(don't see it's stand in the pics; Hakko replacement new would run ~$63here). Could substitute a cheaper one, but won't attach to the station without modification (micro switch).FM-202(seem to be at least partially refurbished by the seller; some things used, others new to make a complete package from what I can tell in the "what's included" section of the listing).BTW, both of these use the same tips (cartridge type).

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 12:43:50 pm
content: I have been looking atthisone for $139.80. I don't know how good they are versus some of the name brand stuff but for the features and accessories the price point seems very attractive.That's the biggest issue I have with Weller. Those tips aren't cheap even for their cheapest irons and to have them go to absolute shit after a day of soldering is totally unacceptable from a "brand name". I don't know how good the tips are on the x-tronic but the price per tip is only slightly more than what I'm paying now. I've used "firesticks" all my life and have only recently had this issue but for it to be a consistent issue over months of purchasing seems to not be about quality but a design decision. Imagine this discussion in the boardroom.Tool #1: We can save X cents per tip if we use this cheaper process and increase our bottom line by XX dollars per quarter.Executive Tool #2: Yes, yes, good idea. Then we'll have the added advantage that these tips will fail faster and therefore profit even more per quarter because our stupid customers will have to buy more. Don't do it consistently with the higher end models, just 25% or so and blame that on QC but on the lower end models, we'll go with 100% because a new customer might think that's how these tips are supposed to behave and accept that as a cost. By the way, have you gotten your $100,000 performance bonus check yet?Call me cynical but I imagine conversations like this all over our country for all kinds of products. Never attribute to stupidity that which you can attribute to greed. Boardroom 101 IMHO.

author: tjb1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 12:51:28 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on May 09, 2014, 01:49:05 amI've been using the original tip with my WES51 for a couple years now and it has no damage. Also just bought 4 other tips is various sizes/shapes and they are all fine.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 01:21:02 pm
content: Quote from: liquibyte on May 09, 2014, 12:43:50 pmI wouldn't touch it. Get a real Hakko, and if you absolutely need hot air then buy a cheap hot air station used from e-bay. Solder stations are something you don't want to go cheap on. The difference in performance between a crap station and a quality station is far more than the difference in price. There's no way I'd spend $140 on junk when I can spend less than that on a quality product.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 02:06:02 pm
content: I don't do pro work and looking at...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/x-tronic-4040-hot-air-rework-station-review/http://www.kerrywong.com/2011/12/05/x-tronic-4040-hot-air-reworksoldering-station/http://www.kerrywong.com/2011/12/07/x-tronic-4040-hot-air-reworksoldering-station-ii/...makes it seem like it's not a bad deal for what you get. I've looked at Hakko and they are proud of their products price wise. There's no way in hell I'd ever pay $5-600 for a soldering station, just not going to happen, I'd rather invent my own first. Reading the thread here about it, there was an alternative suggested onpage 1but overall reviews suggest it's not a bad deal and performs adequately. I'd like the station for the added hot air but it's not a requirement. All I really need is a decent iron with tips that don't dissolve with even light use. I figure if I'm going to invest money, I might as well get some added features.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 02:30:03 pm
content: Quote from: liquibyte on May 09, 2014, 02:06:02 pmYou've never heard of the 936? Of the FX-888....of FX-888D? You can get the 888D from reputable suppliers like Q Source (i.e., it won't be a fake clone) for $90. I would take one of those over a sea of crap solder stations any day of the week.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 07:28:59 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on May 09, 2014, 01:49:05 amwho said i cant do plating?like ive said, ive made them out of copper before and gotten as good performance as the not so spectacular weller tips with nothing more than tinning compound on them. if theres nothing better than the copper, which everyone was saying is not good because it dissolves in lead, then ill just continue on making replacements out of copper. with all this talk of tips lasting forever, i thought there might be a better alternative.what is a tip typically plated with? nickel? if so, i can try that too.

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 07:58:47 pm
content: Quote from: deth502 on May 09, 2014, 07:28:59 pmUsually iron. Some, like Hakko, then add an extra chromium plating over the iron plating.Finally it is then tinned.Greetings,ChrisEdit: The extra layers are not at the business end of the tip, there only iron is the last layer (plus tinning). See for example:http://web.vtc.edu/ELM/projects/2005-2006/LEDSolderingSystem/comunication/Electronics%20Tips%20Soldering%20Techniques_files/sdr_fig2.gifOr Google for images for "solder tip plating"

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 08:28:16 pm
content: Quote from: liquibyte on May 09, 2014, 12:43:50 pmSkip it. Get a good, top quality iron, and an inexpensive hot air station (or better yet IMHO, a good quality used one).Also, separates will allow you to use one to fix the other when it breaks. Particularly useful if you go Chinese.Quote from: liquibyte on May 09, 2014, 02:06:02 pmIf you look between the least expensive and most expensive units from name brand companies, even for just soldering stations, you'll see there are differences. Including additional features.Look for things like better stands (setback featurewhen the iron is placed in is the biggest, but may also contain upgrades such as a tip cubby and multiple cleaning options), better heating technology (i.e. cartridges vs. simple tips butted to/slid over a heating element permanently fixed in the handle), ... types of things that improve it's performance, make it cheaper to operate (setback will extend tip life for example), and is much easier, comfortable, and faster for the user to perform joints (and time translates into $$$ for a business).So in the case of Hakko, you can go with the inexpensive FX-888D, or step up to say the FX-951. Both make proper joints, but the latter will have features and better ease of use than the cheaper model. And in the case of these two stations, the costs are quite reasonable for NEW here in the US (under $100 for an FX-888D, ~$267 for a new FX-951). Tips are cheap too at ~$5 per for the FX-888D, and ~$10 for common profile cartridges for the FX-951 (most common profile cartridge types tend to be closer to ~$30 per, such as those from both Weller and JBC for example).Buy from authorized retailers to avoid fakes IMHO (possible to find legitimate products elsewhere, but it's always a risk).Also avoid poor quality 3rd party tips (authorized retailer aspect is crucial here due to the fake tips floating around). They will reduce an iron's performance (poor fit = poor thermal transfer), nor are they cost effective due to more frequent replacement (thin plating = wear out faster).Quote from: deth502 on May 09, 2014, 07:28:59 pmTip construction is typically done as follows:1. Make the tip out of copper.2. Plate entire bit with iron (~135 - 150 um)3. Plate any surface you don't want wetted with solder with nickel.4. Repeat #3 using chromium.Keep in mind, that molten tin will rapidly dissolve most metals, including copper. So a protective layer must be applied that won’t dissolve so rapidly in tin, and iron is one of the few metals that can actually withstand tin for any reasonable amount of time (and is also cost effective).

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 09:20:28 pm
content: If any connection exists, even microscopic, from the outside of the tip to the copper core, the tip will be rapidly destroyed by lead-free solder, and less rapidly by leaded solder; this typically shows as a pit that becomes a crevice as shown in the pics in this thread.This connect can come from many sources: inferior alloy, plating defect, a deep scratch, or a fracture of the plating when putting hot tips on a cold sponge.True Hakko tips had a patented metal alloy which resists wear even from lead free. You can find links to those discussions in the archives including the patent documents themselves and the type of alloy used.In the USA, a Hakko FX888 or similar is a best bang for buck in soldering stations. While many good one's exist in the same price range, a problem with other brands is quality control, since so many outsource manufacturing, the brands that were reputable in the past may not be so today. Weller's are a perfect example,even if you get a good station today, you can't be sure the same model will continue to be good to recommend it to others, nor will tips will be as good, or continue to be good into the future as you expect when you first bought it.Many makers will cut a lot of corners on the low end stations of their line, such as these.While the FX888 are made in Malaysia all other products are made in Japan, including the tips. To date, Hakko remains consistent in quality even with the Malaysian outsourcing [ although there are scattered reports of 888 station failures on this forum, something that was never reported for its predecessor, the 936].One option you have is to use authentic Plato brand substitute iron tips for your station, but they are not cheap, for Hakko FX888, a Plato tip cost as much as a similar tip shape original Hakko.http://www.techspray.com/d-7-plato.aspx

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 01:13:55 am
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on May 08, 2014, 06:53:20 pmThat is truly an epic fail.So if you can afford it (and don't mind digital control vs. a knob), get a Hakko, otherwise any of the 936 clones will do - parts are cheap and tips are plentiful (and don't dissolve either), lots of "aftermarket mods" andcustomcontrollersavailable too.Others have reported good use with 936-style clone stations and tips here, no cases of tips completely melting away (yet).

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 08:03:32 am
content: Do you think it's worth it to go with a "no-name" station like the Aoyue 906 pictured below? I've seen the exact station somewhere else but rebranded Hakko.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 08:17:20 am
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on May 10, 2014, 08:03:32 am

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 12:26:24 pm
content: Lots of others with rapidly wearing Weller tips...http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=1033111http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?346723-What-is-causing-these-holes-in-my-Weller-soldering-tipsThat 908 is a combo hot air + soldering iron, looks like an old model but should probably be Hakko-compatible.For $15, that Yihua Dave reviewed might be good value... and you can "upgrade" it with genuine Hakko tips. On that thought, are these genuine Weller tips or fake Chinese clones? (Come to think of it, are there even clone tips for Weller irons? Maybe the Chinese didn't bother to clone Weller because the Hakkos were just better.)

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 04:51:18 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on May 10, 2014, 12:26:24 pmThese are original tips made in Germany. Wasn't able to find clones or other no-name compatible tips.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 04:51:57 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on May 10, 2014, 08:17:20 amElaborate?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 06:00:24 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on May 10, 2014, 12:26:24 pmActually, there are fake Weller tips out there (example).Well respected 3rd party alternatives also, such as those from (PlatoorZephyrtronicsfor example.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 07:17:48 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on May 10, 2014, 04:51:57 pmWell, I thought you were trying to be funny saying that you saw a clone rebranded Hakko, and by rebranded it usually means the company in question (Hakko) will sell it as it's own.Like Agilent selling rebranded Rigol scopes.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 10:18:34 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on May 10, 2014, 07:17:48 pmThe two stations pictured below are identical, one is Aoyue and when is Hakko. So the question is, is the Aoyue a clone? Is Aoyue the manufacturer and Hakko just resell them with their name? Are they manufactured without a name? Or is the Hakko branding on it fake?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 10:36:32 pm
content: Aouye, Tenma, etc are clones not rebadgesHakko is the manufacturer but they no longer make this particular station. The controller boards inside the clones are horrid, power supply ground not crimped, but soldered or not connected to the transformer body. So far all the clones seem to have the soldering iron tip grounded and they do the job. But they are definitely not Hakko or even close to the real thing.More info here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-596-world's-cheapest-soldering-station-yihua-936/

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 10:39:48 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on May 10, 2014, 10:18:34 pmHakko is the original manufacturer of the Hakko station. It is originally designed by Hakko, and both the design and the manufacture are to a very high standard.The Aoyue is a copy. It contains none of the design elements or quality of manufacture of the Hakko station, but it may give satisfactory service as long as you don't expect it to have the same durability or performance as the Hakko.