Best PCB Manufactuers? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: nshin31302
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 01:11:47 am
content: I've tried making PCBs, but failed. (Used toner transfer method using a brother laser printer to print on magazine paper. Resulted in the some of the holes missing and some traces being shorted) (Never tried photoresist because it was too costly and time consuming in my opinion).So I decided that I might have try having PCBs made using a board house. I'm just a hobbyist, so I'll need at the most 3 PCBs (double-sided) (solder mask optional) and of reasonable quality. Also I'd like the each PCB to be at most $3 and shipped within a week or two. The PCBs will be no more than 5" x 5". Is there any board house that will meet those specifications? I am currently live in Pennsylvania.

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 01:28:52 am
content: iteadstudio or seedstudio. But youll need to pay for dhl shipping if you dont want it to take a month.

author: mazurov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 02:23:28 am
content: OSH Park is in Oregon. Quality is good, the turnaround time is often less than two weeks (for two layers).

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 02:29:40 am
content: Maximum you can get at cheap is 10x10 cm. Anything exceeding just one of those dimensions will skyrocket the price insanely. You can get some cheap boards at elecrow for example. 10x10 cm for $14.90 + shipping (cheap but slow or fast but expensive)http://www.elecrow.com/special-offer-for-2-layer-1010cm-max-green-pcb-510pcs-p-761.htmlOr this if you need some smaller boards:http://www.elecrow.com/5pcs-2-layer-pcb-p-1174.htmlHere you can compare prices over various PCB houses:http://pcbshopper.com/

author: DanielS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 02:48:31 am
content: If you find a place that does 25insq boards for $3 a piece in small quantities, let us know - I'm sure many of us would like to have some.There are places that can do $6-8 per board for that size but you have to order 10+.For boards up to 3-4insq, OSHPark is a nice option with prices on par with or pretty close to Chinese sources, though the Chinese usually give you five boards instead of OSH's three.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 02:50:58 am
content: Best choice depends on size and spec, PCB Shopper will show you which.I found Accutrace (in CA, pcb4u.com -- they're on the shopper list) has a good deal as larger protos go; that's where I gotthese.I'm not sure if they're 100% domestic or if they have an internal / associated Chinese quickturn, but the delivery time was pretty good. I also ordered boards from China that day, and I'm still waiting for them to come in (although some have shipped already).Something you may not expect, but I guess should: the soldermask is a somewhat weak, glossy material. Seems to be typical of protos. It's not as tough as the glossy/matte stuff you can get from a top-dollar manufacturer. I doubt that really matters to most (e.g., you're not trying to pass UL certs on a cheapie proto), and may instead be helpful (easier to scrape off = easier to rework "oops" traces).Tim

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 03:06:20 am
content: I have been using Sunstone Circuits (USA) for years. Maybe not the cheapest, but they nail it EVERY time. Submitting orders on the website is super easy - even taking native files from Eagle, Altium and others. I send Gerbers, personally.To me, I prefer to have the highest chance of a perfect result rather than hunting down the cheapest possible price. I have done 24hr turns to 2 weeks - priced accordingly.Hoping they will add a laser drill for micro vias soon. That is my next trick to get better density out of my layouts. The micro-vias should give me via-in-pad capability without having to fill/tent the via. They are too small to wick the solder (I think).

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 02:49:31 pm
content: Quote from: nshin31302 on April 06, 2015, 01:11:47 amPCBShopper.comwill show you prices and delivery times from over 20 manufacturers. There are some pretty cheap options, but there is nothing that will match all of your criteria.There's no one who makes 5"x5" boards for $3 each. Even mass-produced perf boards cost more than that (in small quantities). You can get 10cmx10cm boards for $1 each, but you'll get 10 of them. You said you need no more than 3 - well, 10 boards for $1 each is almost as cheap as 3 boards for $3 each.By "shipped within a week or two" I presume you mean "delivered within a week or two". PCBShopper can let you specify the delivery time (e.g. 10 business days) but that will also raise the cost.No one ever said electronics was a cheap hobby.- Bob

author: Moondeck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 09:17:25 pm
content: try dirtypcbs.com, they are great.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 09:49:47 pm
content: Quote from: Moondeck on April 06, 2015, 09:17:25 pmOr elecrow.

author: HugoPT
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 10:26:25 pm
content: I recommend Elecrow

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 10:31:52 pm
content: Quote from: nshin31302 on April 06, 2015, 01:11:47 amBTW, if you're a hobbyist and your handmade boards (if they had been successful) would have sufficed, then ANY PCB manufacturer will make boards "of reasonable quality". But if you're concerned,PCBShopper.comalso has user-written, Amazon-style reviews of many manufacturers.- Bob

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 04:13:11 am
content: Quote from: rea5245 on April 06, 2015, 02:49:31 pmAccutrace does $3 ea / 10 pcs. up to 20 in^2 (~ 4 x 5"), which is pretty darn close. Other services seem to step up in cost around that area too, so if you need largish boards, you might consider breaking them up if possible?Tim

author: tomshirvo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 04:34:37 am
content: I have usedwww.pcbway.comand about to use them again, my boards turned out really well.

author: Obin
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 03:56:40 pm
content: If someone in Europe might be checking out this thread:Check out:http://www.micron20.com/enIt is pretty good (and the cheapest I found untill now)

author: prasimix
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 04:16:42 pm
content: Quote from: Obin on April 07, 2015, 03:56:40 pmAccording to online calculators printed.cz is slightly cheaper (if I entered data correctly)...

author: Obin
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 04:39:03 pm
content: Quote from: prasimix on April 07, 2015, 04:16:42 pmAha! *bookmarked* Thanks for that one, didn't know it

author: prasimix
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 04:57:53 pm
content: Quote from: Obin on April 07, 2015, 04:39:03 pmHereyou can see how it looks like with OSP finish. Shipping with registered mail was 30EUR extra.

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 01:16:20 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on April 07, 2015, 04:13:11 amHave you ever used accutrace for assembly?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 06:41:41 am
content: I haven't. One of these days, I'll have a small job and quote that around. YMMV, of course.Tim

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 05:47:24 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on April 06, 2015, 02:50:58 amI've recently run two jobs with them, both 120 mm x 100 mm boards that fit into those nifty Hammond extrusions, and the boards were excellent, except for the soldermask being as you noted. I assume that the non-proto boards uses something better.The service was excellent, too.

author: charlespax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 10:59:09 am
content: Quote from: Moondeck on April 06, 2015, 09:17:25 pmI use DirtyPCBs.com exclusively. In my experience they have been the fastest, cheapest, easiest, and most bullshit-free service.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 01:24:52 pm
content: Quote from: charlespax on August 09, 2015, 10:59:09 amFor anything over 5x5cm, quantity 8, they are definitely not the cheapest. Nor are they the fastest. The price comparison site,PCBShopper.com, shows several cheaper and faster manufacturers (and it includes DirtyPCBs in its comparison).But they do seem to have a dedicated cadre of fans.- Bob

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 02:56:42 pm
content: Quote from: tomshirvo on April 07, 2015, 04:34:37 amI avoid pcbway because of their forum spamming practices.+1 for pcbshopper.com, it's an excellent resource.I had good experience with OshPark (good quality, economical for very small boards) and elecrow (including their reasonably priced metal stencils).

author: ralphd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 02:58:23 pm
content: Quote from: rea5245 on August 09, 2015, 01:24:52 pmI only see 2 cheaper than dirtyPCBs for 10pcs of 10cm x 10cm boards.If you want to panelize with cut-outs and mouse bites I think dirtyPCBs is the cheapest.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 03:26:28 pm
content: Quote from: ralphd on August 09, 2015, 02:58:23 pmI put in 10x10cm, 10 boards, green solder mask, shipping to the US, and I saw 5 manufacturers that were cheaper than Dirty PCBs. I've attached a screen shot of my results.Note that this is querying for 10 boards. If you query for 8 boards, PCBShopper uses Dirty PCB's "Protopack +-10" pricing, which is substantially cheaper but doesn't guarantee that you'll get 10 boards.- Bob

author: charlespax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 03:36:53 pm
content: Looks like DirtyPCBs.com isn't the cheapest. It would be nice if that site graphed the price curves of each vendor.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 03:42:15 pm
content: Quote from: charlespax on August 09, 2015, 03:36:53 pmYou mean something like the X axis being manufacturer, Y axis being boards * area, and Z axis being price? I've thought about that, but then there's also solder mask color, shipping costs, number of designs on the board (which some manufacturers charge more for), etc.It would be a hard graph to read and apply to your own project, so you'd end up going to PCBShopper anyway to price out your specific design. :-)- Bob

author: charlespax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 03:43:44 pm
content: Just plot it in seven dimensional space and use 7D glasses.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 03:45:40 pm
content: Quote from: charlespax on August 09, 2015, 03:43:44 pmIs getting that to you on Monday soon enough?- Bob

author: charlespax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 03:48:22 pm
content: That would be wonderful. I'm in Shenzhen, so Monday is about thirteen minutes from now. Just throw a few hundred engineers at it and we'll be good.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 04:34:38 pm
content: Quote from: rea5245 on August 09, 2015, 03:42:15 pmMaybe suggestions for related deals? E.g. I asked for 10 boards but can get 20 for additional %10 percent, or save 50% if I will be willing to wait additional 3 days.Another idea is to search also for stencils. For example, I like elecrow because I can get in a single order reasonably priced pcbs and a metal stencil, sharing the shipping cost.Anyway, pcbshopper is a great resource and is very useful as is. Thanks for making it happen.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 04:45:23 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on August 09, 2015, 04:34:38 pmI try to do that. For Advanced Circuits (4pcb.com), PCBShopper recommends that you use their FreeDFM tool to get a $50 off coupon.But there aren't many opportunities like that. A lot of companies have discounts for first-time buyers, but I don't include those because I don't know whether a PCBShopper user is a first-time buyer. Some of the offers are only for corporations, and I don't know that about my users either.- Bob

author: ralphd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 07:36:25 pm
content: Quote from: rea5245 on August 09, 2015, 03:26:28 pmIf you check the dirtyPCBs reviews, you'll see that people usually get MORE than 10 boards when they order protopack.Unless you have evidence to show that a material percentage of protopack orders get less than 10 boards, it seems like a red herring to me.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 08:08:51 pm
content: Quote from: ralphd on August 09, 2015, 07:36:25 pmDirtyPCBs' web site says (http://dirtypcbs.com/about.php) that about 3% of people ordering Protopacks will get 9 boards and about 0.5% will get 8 boards.So yeah, you can argue it's a red herring. But Dirty PCBs doesn't promise 10 boards, so I feel uncomfortable promising 10 boards on their behalf.I have a similar dilemma for shipping times: Dirty PCBs says registered air shipping takes as much as 40 days. I'll bet it almost never takes that long. But I can't have PCBShopper promise something on Dirty PCBs' behalf that they won't promise themselves.- Bob

author: ralphd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 09:28:41 pm
content: Quote from: rea5245 on August 09, 2015, 08:08:51 pmYou don't have to guarantee anything. IMHO when searching for 10 boards, the search shohld show the dirtyPCBs +-10 protopack. Currently users don't know the trick of searching for 8 won't see it.It matters little to me since I know the difference...

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 09:50:17 pm
content: Quote from: ralphd on August 09, 2015, 09:28:41 pmIf someone's happy with eight boards, why would they search for 10? I realize that a lot of the Chinese manufacturers sell a minimum of 10 boards, and I, myself, fall into the trap of searching for 10 boards when I only need one. But if someone wants only one board (or two in case they mess up), or eight boards, that's what they should ask for. If they don't, they're not just missing out on Dirty PCB's Protopack deal, they're missing out on the best prices from OSH Park (sold in quantities of three), Advanced Circuits (sold in quantities of four), Bay Area Circuits (offering 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5), Eurocircuits (1, 2, and 5), and more.Shop for the quantityyouwant, not the quantity that some companies want to sell you.- Bob

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 05:35:02 am
content: Quote from: rea5245 on August 09, 2015, 09:50:17 pmIt's not always a hard limit. For example, I may need 5 now but also know that I will need more down the road so if the incremental price is reasonable I will get more.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:54:46 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on April 06, 2015, 03:06:20 amDitto. I've been using Sunstone forever. Definitely not the cheapest, but they have the best quality I've found. I keep toying with the idea of going somewhere else to lower my costs, but I always come back to this: When I place an order with Sunstone, I never worry about it. It's just always right. Considering all the other suppliers I deal with where this is NOT the case, I'm happy to pay a little bit more for that peace of mind. They even started doing this this with PCBExpress where half the time, they beat their own build schedule. On two layer boards, they often ship in just 1 day instead of the standard 2. I just ordered a 4 layer board that was supposed to ship in 3 days....went out in just 2 days. They consistently do stuff like this, and they have NEVER been late that I can remember....never. In a world full of lazy, stupid businessmen that don't give a crap, Sunstone is a breath of fresh air.Davies Molding for knobs is another one. They are pros through and through...you just don't have to worry about them.

author: joesixpack
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 05:52:59 pm
content: Quote from: nshin31302 on April 06, 2015, 01:11:47 amI don't have any experience with PCB manufacturers, however I do have experience with making home made PCBs with the toner transfer method. I'd like to point out Brother printers use a plastic toner that requires higher heat to fuse. If you try to use a Brother printer for toner transfer you will fail every time. I purchased the cheapest printer I could find (Samsung) and it works well. My wife now uses our Brother printer to print out her class notes.Avoid Brother toner if you want to use the toner transfer method.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 04:42:12 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on August 10, 2015, 07:54:46 amSpeaking of quality, I've added a "Quality Certifications" field toPCBShopper.com. I've heard several complaints in forums (eevblog and elsewhere) and from non-Chinese PCB manufacturers that while PCBShopper clearly shows that Chinese companies are the cheapest it gives no indication of the superior quality that the other manufacturers claim to have.So now, you can specify whether you want your manufacturer to be ISO 9001 and/or IPC 600 certified.- Bob

author: CoolBeer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 03:13:35 am
content: I'd think that expecting superior quality from the lowest bidder would be a big no-no, but what do I know? A few of the cheapies even put identification markings on the silkscreen(at least seeedstudio, iteadstudio and elecrow does this), so if that's something to be aware of as well.The question in the end becomes if ok is good enough, because for my purposes the dirt cheap chinese board manufacturers do an excellent job. Sure, the silkscreen is sometimes a bit offset and they put their identification numbers/letters on there, but I got my boards made and mailed for less than a take-away pizza, that's awesome.-CoolBeer

author: Poe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 03:31:58 am
content: I've tried over half of the PCB suppliers listed on PCBshopper and about three others not listed there.We use Advanced Circuits when we need to do 'the hard stuff'.If it's just a four layer 8mil trace/space we use Accutrace. They make boards in the USA (CA) but they also broker boards from reliable sources in China. We place orders of 3 to 50pcs weekly.We once received an order two days late (five day turn) and it was 2oz instead of 1oz. They gave us 20% off the order via credit. Another time our 62mil board was only 52mil, we didn't say anything because it didn't matter. The other hundred orders were exactly what we ordered, exactly when they said it would arrive. Quality was very good. Unless you need something out of their capabilities they're hard to beat. When they are beat, just call them and most of the time they will match another supplier's price/turn time.Most of the time they will ask if you want double the amount of boards for an additional 15% at checkout.. or something like that.Three weeks back I orderedtwentytwo layer 3.5" x 4.1" boards, five day turn, for $47 (including FedEx shipping). For an additional 15$ I could have gotten them in seven calendar days.In regard to ISO....The idea behind ISO9001 is that paperwork and bureaucracy can somehow make poorly run companies better. Management is about the only people who take it seriously.And even the sketchiest of board houses say they adhere to IPC600 standards of quality....It's typically on the customer to check an try to get a refund. Good luck doing that with most non-domestic companies.

author: fivefish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 03:34:46 am
content: QuoteOkay, I'll bite. I'll try these guys... are they Accutrace?

author: Poe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 03:42:14 am
content: Quote from: fivefish on August 26, 2015, 03:34:46 amYep.https://www.pcb4u.com/I'll also say that most board houses have shipped one extra board. Sometimes I'll get a few extra. Never have we received less than what we ordered... even from the really shitty board houses.Full disclosure I work for a company that owns its own board house. We just don't do low volume stuff.

author: fivefish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 04:02:58 am
content: The special price, I see they don't allow internal cutouts, but are irregular outside shape allowed? Or is it strictly rectangular?

author: Poe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 08:15:38 pm
content: Quote from: fivefish on August 26, 2015, 04:02:58 amIrregular outside shapes are allowed. If you have questions, just email or call them. I've found them to be nice and friendly.... didn't try to sell me extras or anything like that.