Windows 7 vs Windows 10?? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: pcdroid13
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 11:38:11 am
content: I am formatting my computer, I am struggling to decide on which windows to install.Windows 10 does not ask the user whether to install updates or not.Let me know your views on which to choose a version of the window.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 12:49:13 pm
content: There's at least 1 huge thread on this subject already. It also generates a lot of "heated discussion", so I'd do a search first and get an idea of what has been posted.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 02:58:53 pm
content: Windows 7 support is ending early next year, so the sensible choice is Windows 10. If you want to get into the differences between both versions you'd better close this thread now because that's inevitably a matter of personal preference and has already been discussed to death without people changing their strong opinions. You just end up with heated and slightly unpleasant discussions.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 03:27:46 pm
content: If you can obtain a license for Windows 10 LTSC, use that one.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 03:32:29 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 06, 2019, 03:27:46 pmI don't think I've ever seen a legal non evaluation copy of the LTSC.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 03:37:05 pm
content: For new installations, Windows 7 should not be used anymore. One expection might be fully airgapped systems, but i assume that would not be the case for you.So, if you really dislike Windows 10, you should carefully consider if you need Windows at all. For many things, Linux can be a very good alternative. Not for me sadly, i play too many gamesIf you need or want Windows, choose Windows 10. I am still not a user myself, but i have read quite a bit about it. The latestest version now actually lets you postpone updates, even indefinetly, if you want. Also, i have heard that Microsoft supposedly will change the way major updates are installed, so those are not a full background re-install anymore. There are also, as far as i know, programs that let you change back the look and feel, at least somewhat.Regarding LTSC, sometimes still called LTSB: Regardless of their availability (it is not available as single, off the shelf license, which is true for EDU versions as well), it is also somewhat limited in functionality, and for example cannot run the latest Office version. Though that may only apply to Office 365.The one thing that still holds me off personally are the many privacy issues, since you still cannot fully disable telemetry without an external solution.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 03:38:08 pm
content: If you're going for Win 10 and want at least some control over your computer, buy at least the Pro version. It gives you back some control over many things including updates. The Home version is a joke - just stay away if you can.I'm still on 7 and I don't know what I'm going to do yet. I actually use Win 7 mostly for professional stuff requiring Windows - almost all my "home" uses, and some of my pro ones are now covered by Linux.Sure there will be potential security issues once the support is over for Win 7 - but is this worse than the constant telemetry of Win 10, and the regular messed-up updates? I'm still baffled.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 03:50:30 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on July 06, 2019, 03:37:05 pmThe Enterprise and Education versions *should* allow to disable telemetry. If not, Microsoft will have a lot of angry and fairly powerful customers to answer to.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 03:58:04 pm
content: SiliconWizard is right about the Pro version. I forgot to mention that because i thought it is obvious.That is why i mentioned the EDU version: There you can turn of telemetry completly, i assume this is related to COPPA.The security of course is determined by how you use it, and how it is connected to the internet.I personally think, if there is even just one single port forwarded to your box, you should not stay on Windows 7. Especially something like Remote Desktop. MS even released a Windows XP patch, because a security flaw in RDP allowed a full takeover of the machine. With such forwardings, it is also imperative to not delay patching for too long. A couple of weeks or even a month is fine though: Give all the others the time to find and report the issues :pMy own box is primarily a gaming machine, and has no port forwardings at all. If that was all i am doing, i could reasonably expect to stay on 7. But support for Windows 7 is already flaky in the gaming area (for example Direct X 11 vs. 12), so i will switch sooner or later.By the way, the free upgrade from Windows 7 supposedly still works. You should be able to simply enter your Win 7 product keyduring the installation of Windows 10.EDIT: Normal Enterprise does not allow you to turn of telemetry fully. At my company we had to work quite some time to find acceptable outbound firewall settings to block most (hopefully) telememtry, without affecting functionality, and it is scary to see the number of requests that are blocked all the time.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 04:21:07 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on July 06, 2019, 03:58:04 pmCan you elaborate on telemetry not being turned off fully? They added that feature because companies wouldn't have it. I can't imagine some big and somewhat powerful companies not raising hell when it turns out telemetry still not being turned off.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 04:22:10 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on July 06, 2019, 03:58:04 pmIt's probably illegal to use it for personal or business use though?Quote from: Ranayna on July 06, 2019, 03:58:04 pmReally? Are you sure of that?

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 09:04:53 pm
content: I think this only applies to retail versions of Windows 7.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 01:54:08 am
content: Allow me to offer my unbiased perspective.Up until recently I've been a Windows/Intel guy. I've used just about every version of Windows (workstation and server) and I know them and the MS-DOS command prompt inside out. I spent years building and administering Windows-based networks.When Windows 10 was released, I tried it for 6 months with an open mind, but even in that time, I couldn't warm up to it. My experience was horrible. I also use Windows 10 at work to this day and my experience and opinion hasn't changed.Microsoft seems to have taken a lot of things that were good about Windows and features that just worked and flushed them down the toilet.For every one thing I like about Windows 10, there are five others I absolutely hate. It's so bad that Windows 7 is the last version of Windows I'll ever install on my home computers. I have since switched to Linux (Fedora Workstation) full-time and I absolutely love it.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 02:31:41 am
content: How compatible is Win 10 when it comes to drivers for older printers, scanners, and the like... do Win 7 drivers still work?

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 03:49:42 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 07, 2019, 01:54:08 amHow about the biased version just to give a perspective for comparison.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 03:57:24 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on July 07, 2019, 03:49:42 amYou don't understand. He's unbiased. It says it right there under his name: Mo-de-ra-tor.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 05:03:46 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on July 07, 2019, 03:49:42 amI'm a Windows guy and there is absolutely nothing wrong with Windows 10,it'snot shit,you'rejust doing it wrong. ;-)</sarcasm>

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 05:18:15 am
content: In any case, what I meant by "unbiased" was that ask me 10 or 15 years ago, it was Windows for pretty much every application. It was quite difficult to turn my back on decades of Windows/DOS knowledge (although it does make transitioning into Linux quite simple). I wish Windows didn't go down the toilet and that they didn't absolutely butcher the user interface, but it is what it is. I didn't go down the Apple route because I refuse to spend thousands of dollars on a machine which I can build myself for half the price.Although Linux's overall market share is still tiny compared to Windows, I think the steady increase in users year after year isn't by accident.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 02:10:19 pm
content: Quote from: Peabody on July 06, 2019, 02:08:34 pmFor as long as your computer is not connected to internet or a public network you don't really need OS security patches. What you do need to keep up-to-date is your web browser, e-mail program and malware/virus scanner. These are the points of entry. The network not so much.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 03:01:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 07, 2019, 02:10:19 pmAll the things you mention depend on the integrity and security of the OS. Running an OS unpatched while using the internet is asking for trouble. Even if what you say is true the smallest mistake could leave a very soft and vulnerable system suddenly exposed. Unfortunately that has been discussed numerous times before and people tend to hold on to their risky beliefs.

author: MyHeadHz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 02:06:19 am
content: To answer your question, Windows 10. It is gradually becoming an "OS as a service", but there is not really any other real choice as it belongs to Microsoft and that is what they have decided to do. They will gradually force you off of Windows 7 (at least if you need Internet access for it), so you may as well get used to it.I strongly recommend giving Linux a shot. It's quite good and easy to transition to now, and when you need to do anything in Windows, you can just run it in a virtual machine- the best of all worlds.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 03:18:16 am
content: @ pcdroid13onlyIf you don't want to find out the hard waystick with a fresh install of Win 7If you need to go further than 7 without stuffing about with bossy boots 10,there is always Win 8 and 8.1, which allow you to control what and what will not be installed by MS,and any legit updates only how and when YOU specifyLinux is great, but not convenient for all current Windows users, but well worth a play to get familiarBut whatever you do, don't get dragged off into the Mac camp,it won't be pretty after the honeymoon new user period is over, and the shiny hardware loses it's polishBasically it's handballing yourself from Win 10 to a rocky mountain Mac '10'Win 7 is good for a few years yet, as is XP, Vista..

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 04:53:50 pm
content: I wouldn't call forced install of unwanted spyware and adware "security patches".On the other hand, look at all those viruses devastating computer systems here and there. I'm sure all these computers had "security patches" installed. Didn't help them.Sure, there's always a danger of virus, but IMHO it's much lesser evil than Windows 10.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 05:00:26 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on July 09, 2019, 04:53:50 pmThey actually didn't. Almost all of the outbreaks we hear about were in organisations who didn't properly patch their systems. Zero days are quite rare for generic malware. They tend to stick to published vulnerabilities. There's a lot to be said about the current Microsoft policies, but reducing Windows updates to "unwanted spyware and adware" and nothing else is being intentionally dishonest. Let's aim for some nuance, because we already have too much flinging of polarized shit.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 05:26:42 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 09, 2019, 05:00:26 pmI don't really know what they're doing. The computer is a tool for me to use. Their OS already had everything that I need (except for modern hardware support) somewhere at Windows NT stage. All the later upgrades brought only one thing which I use - nice mouse gestures in Windows 7, which they then somewhat over-complicated in Windows 8. The things I have noticed in newer versions is screwed-up user interface, bugs, over-bloat, spyware, adware etc ... Not a single thing that I like.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 06:42:33 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on July 09, 2019, 05:26:42 pmMy view is that it all started when they decided to jump on the "mobile" bandwagon, some time around when Apple's iPhone began to take off. My understanding is that they suddenly began to be afraid of Apple's competition, something they had managed to keep under "control", or even ignore, for several decades. Incidentally, that's also when Bill Gates decided to stop all operational work at MS. You may conclude what you wish.Apple pretty much introduced some key ideas at the time: that mobile platforms were going to be something big in terms of market, that the line between mobile and desktop computers was going to get fuzzy, and that a common OS architecture and associated online services was an interesting idea to go down this road. Microsoft basically took all those ideas and went on with the development of Windows 8, Windows Phone (a major flop), their cloud services, etc.Beyond the Windows Phone disaster, they saw that "software as a service" was the new graal, promising a regular revenue stream. No more uncertainties, no more "every other OS version is a failure". Windows 10, Office 365 are epitomes of this new strategy. Do not let users have a choice. Choice is bad!Sadly, what really started it all was this "one OS for all platforms" idea, which IMO utterly failed: Windows Phone was a commercial flop, I consider Microsoft tablets a semi-flop as well, but MS still insisted on shoving all those "mobile" paradigms and UI quirks down the throat of desktop users, leaving a very inconsistent UI, whereas Windows until then had maybe not the prettiest UI, but a very consistent one.Beyond Windows' case, software as a service is just an example of the trend to switch from a traditional sales model (companies sell products to people that become owners) to a rent model, in which consumers do not really own their goods anymore, they just rent them. This raises a ton of questions, including the position of private property in this "new" world.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2019, 07:00:01 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 07, 2019, 05:03:46 amI was thinking about this for a moment. I do not like being sodomized by Bill Gates. For me "doing it right" would mean switching around and I get to sodomize Bill Gates while I get paid humongous amounts of money to do so. Yes, that sounds a bit better than Win10.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2019, 12:40:43 am
content: Does anyone know if there is a tool that nukes all the annoying things from win 10 ?There used to be something called pcdecrapifier to hunt down all the junk companies install on store bought machines. ( like demoe and time limited junk.)what i want to accomplish :- Disable automatic updates. Download them but let me choose when to install. The install system is broken.- disable anything that gets sent back to microsoft.- give me back a windows XP/7 style start menu. this stupidity of having to type in what you want makes me want to go back to dos- DESTROY FROM ORBIT that bloody Cortana shit that is constantly eating cpu cycles and trashing around on the drive- disable the drive indexing for fastsearch or whatever they call it these days.apart from that i can live with win 10.whjat version should i buy. We use win10 at work and have none of that stuff but i can't get that on my home edition ( we run enterprise and the price of that is unpalatable for my home machines )

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2019, 03:13:30 am
content: Quote from: soldar on July 11, 2019, 07:00:01 pmWindows was best in Bill Gate's time. For what it has become today blame that new clown who's name i can't even pronounce.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2019, 12:47:55 am
content: Quote from: Bud on July 12, 2019, 03:13:30 amAbsolutely. Like every other operating system, Windows had its quirks and downfalls but for the most part it was stable (on decent hardware), secure (if you knew what you were doing) and it just worked. Windows XP was brilliant and so was Windows 7. Windows 8/10 are just retarded cousins of Apple MacOS and instead of being made simple to use, they've plastered settings all over the place and you have to guess whether an update will silently uninstall software from your machine each time. Fun!

author: Ultron81
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2019, 02:29:54 am
content: The biggest issue IMO from going from a PC/laptop with Win 7 to Win 10 is driver compatibility, especially on laptops with Intel HD Integrated Graphics.Intel and MS decided in order to get you to purchase a new laptop, they will not produce proper drivers for Win 10 on legacy hardware. So if you have a PC/laptop that came with Windows 7, Windows 10 is going to be a nightmare when it comes to driver compatibility.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2019, 09:23:41 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 13, 2019, 12:47:55 am"Was"? I am still using XP and it is what I am posting with. No problems with updates here.Years ago I set up a machine with Win7 with the intention of making the transition but a lot of the software I use with XP does not run on Win7 so I never really moved over as I had intended to do.Then I set up a machine with Linux Mint and I do use that for some things. Very slowly the transition is happening from WinXP to Linux Mint. Very slowly because old dogs have difficulty with new tricks.But it is certain I will never even try Win10.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2019, 09:29:02 am
content: Never say never

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2019, 10:33:05 am
content: Quote from: imo on July 13, 2019, 09:29:02 amI guess I could eventually find out when I get to hell that I am forced to use Win10 there. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2019, 11:34:15 am
content: Quote from: Ultron81 on July 13, 2019, 02:29:54 amA lot of companies are currently making the move from Windows 7 to 10 as the support for 7 is being dropped and this doesn't appear to be a relevant hurdle.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 12:32:35 am
content: Quote from: soldar on July 13, 2019, 09:23:41 amThat's because support ended 5 years ago and even now support for Windows POSReady support has ended. You won't have any problems with updates because you won't be getting any updates ;-)Just on that, be careful installing POSReady updates on a standard XP installation, they are not the same and I had XP brick itself following one of those updates years ago. There is a reason why Microsoft didn't just push out the same updates to XP users.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 12:53:34 am
content: If you value your sanity, go with 7, I was forced to use Win10 at work for around 2 years and hated every minute of it. Screw the security updates, Windows Update has lost all credibility and is on par with your average foreign malware, the cure is worse than the disease.Use an up to date browser, run NoScript and AdBlock always, consider a good antivirus program and keep it updated, don't download sketchy warez and you'll be fine. I disabled Windows Update 4 years ago on every Windows machine I have left, zero problems, zero infections. Ignore the handful of chicken littles who will scream that the sky is falling, let them scream until their face turns blue.Or you could consider just dumping Windows all together and going with Linux, I'm now running that on all but one PC in the house.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 02:39:54 pm
content: Note that those still willing to use Win 7 AND get updates, it's going to be possible until 2023:https://www.techspot.com/news/76354-microsoft-extends-paid-windows-7-support-until-2023.htmlTo this day, I have absolutely no clue how much they will charge for this though.Edit: didn't notice that "It’ll be available to all Windows 7 Professional and Windows 7 Enterprise customerswith volume licensing."So that's basically for businesses and not for end-users...

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 05:36:27 pm
content: Current predictions are that 35% of Windows installations will still be Windows 7 when end-of-life support happens in January 14, 2020. The question is, how long can you go without running into a game-breaking issue because of no further updates?That answer is going to be measured in years for most people.And I'd suggest that support from non-Microsoft vendors of software and hardware that will eventually end up being a bigger issue than updates, in most cases. Most of which are not going to drop Windows 7 support until the user base shrinks more than it has.If a security problem shows up that is deemed critical, Microsoft will avoid the PR nightmare of not fixing it and fix it anyway. Witness last months patch that included every version of windows as far back as XP, version3:https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4500705/customer-guidance-for-cve-2019-0708Yes, Windows XP still has a small share of the market, even after being out of support for many years.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 08:03:56 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 14, 2019, 07:25:34 pmPossibly, but the conditions under which MS would provide this support is still unclear. They may allow or block it on a per-customer basis (the above article seems to imply that), so on a given set of license keys, not just if this is an Enterprise copy.They state that it would be available for Windows 7 Pro versions as well. So they are not going to base it solely on the version, but on the license keys IMO...

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 09:30:58 pm
content: I must say I am a bit of a sucker for Windows 7, I did install a new version of 10 and it did ask me if I wanted to allow Microsoft to send data and allow Cortana to run, so I think the newer installers must give more options when installing?Anyway, I found, and it's not a "new"thing, but Windows 10 will install and run fine without a license key, I think the only thing I couldn't do was personalise it (desktop background), but there are ways around that, and it displays the Windows activation message on the desktop, which again, there are ways around that, so if you wanted to try it then I don't know what other limitations there are, but even the enterprise version seems to run without limitation, or I haven't found any, I did only pay a few GBP's for the full license which it seemed happy to activate and work with.You can download the ISO from Microsoft Windows 10 download site, if using Windows already then set the browser to send the user agent through as Apple or something and refresh the page it'll then allow you to download the ISO rather than the toolkit to create media.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 09:54:18 pm
content: Quote from: Wilksey on July 14, 2019, 09:30:58 pmDo you mean stolen licence resold to many people fraud from ebay or some other dodgy place? With activation probably revoked later? Rather than paying for that non real licence to scummy seller, you could just outright install win 10 over cracked win 7 and get a "free" digital licence bind to your computer hardware. Does not make it any less legal. As it isn't such in your case to begin with.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 10:12:45 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 14, 2019, 02:39:54 pmExtended support is typically used by big institutions like governments caught out by the support ending. Microsoft is willing to provide extended support but expect to pay dearly. It's not viable for normal end users in more ways than one.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 10:43:29 am
content: Windows 10 fools users into thinking they have backed up the registry when, in fact, no backup was made.Quote

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 01:10:38 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on July 15, 2019, 10:43:29 amNice.I don't know how anyone could ever tolerate those never-ending fuckups... it's a disaster. Really. I know some people here are still convinced that Windows 10 is great and that everyone saying otherwise is a moron that doesn't understand what progress is all about, but still. How can you ever tolerate that?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 01:26:22 pm
content: Now I can see why MS is not going to change strategies any time soon and why they don't see a problem with it, nor their shareholders:https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/MSFT(just take a look on a 5-year span...)

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 01:28:16 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 12, 2019, 12:40:43 amThere is a tool"This Windows 10 Setup Script turns off a bunch of unnecessary Windows 10 telemetery, bloatware, & privacy things. Not guaranteed to catch everything."https://gist.github.com/alirobe/7f3b34ad89a159e6daa1

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 02:03:32 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 12, 2019, 12:40:43 amShutup O&O is a pretty good tool. You can forget about control over updates. It's not going to happen. The Start Menu is what you're used, you just also have the option of typing which is exactly how it worked in Windows 7 and even 8.https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

author: Ramsy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 05:41:18 am
content: I am using Windows 10,but i miss Windos 7.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 02:29:51 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 15, 2019, 02:03:32 pmso how do it departments do that then ? we never get updates unless it applies them ?what version do they use then ?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 02:45:08 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 19, 2019, 02:29:51 pmYou need enterprise version for that. Which you cannot buy in retail.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 04:03:47 pm
content: Well, Microsoft can forget about having me as a customer then, it's not going to happen. Their abusive tactics have thrown away all credibility that they had. I've already migrated my mom over to Linux a couple years ago and most of my ancillary machines, my work computer is a Mac. My daily driver laptop is the only one still on Windows and when Win7 becomes no longer viable that will move over to Linux as well. It's really only inertia and familiarity that has kept me on it for this long.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 04:47:35 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 19, 2019, 02:29:51 pmNon security updates can be deferred up to a year, after that it's obligatory. The only exception is the LTSB but that's not recommended for regular use. While I don't agree with the current system the old system very definitely was broken. Something needed to be done and the amount of possible configurations needed to be reduced which is what Microsoft did.

author: gmb42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2019, 09:52:42 am
content: Really amuses me to see folks get so bent out of shape over free updates. The following is all personal anecdote over 2.5 decades of home PC's (all hand-built) and looking after the machines of a small company (~150 hosts) mostly Dell for 2 decades.The OS notifies you and gives you deferral options (Win 10 Pro at least), if I'm not making an overnight test run then start the update as I leave work, for home systems as I'm going to bed.If I am running long term tests, then pick a coffee break and do the update, done in 5 minutes (semi-annual updates do take a bit longer, but that only happens every 6 months or so).Fear of updates bricking machines is vastly over-rated IMHO due to the interwebz amplification factor. I've never had it happen to me. Shit does happen though, deal with it, you do have backups?As for updating during presentations, then PPPPPPP (Prior planning and preparation prevents piss poor performance) and check for updates at an appropriate interval prior to your presentation. Anything less shows lack of respect for your audience.For Linux systems then apt-unattended-upgrade works for me, had one failure I can recall when a kernel update didn't play well when running under Hyper-V, I simply pegged apt to the previous kernel.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2019, 10:08:32 am
content: Quote from: gmb42 on July 20, 2019, 09:52:42 amIn the past it was way worse. Fucking crap would reboot your computer when you turned away for 10 seconds. Now they made it way less annoying apparently due to backlash. You could often see gaming streams ruined by update rebooting computer. Also this freaking crap crippled my laptop by automatically updating one driver to wrong version. It was unable to shut down properly and remained in sort of sleep state. My colleague (IT specialist) had the same issue with the same model and was pulling out his hair unable to fix the issue. He thought it was HW failure. Only after many hours of trial and error, several windows reinstalls and googling I found what was happening. And the worst part, in the beginning it was possible do disable update for particular driver. But later it changed to possibility only deterring it's update only until new version came out. Not that it was straight forward process to begin with. You need to download special tool from MS to do that.Another thing was HD4850 GPU. It has no official driver support from AMD for win 10. However driver which was automatically installed by early versions of win 10 worked just fine, including 3D. But then came driver update and completely ruined it. IIRC it was very hard to preserve driver version that worked.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2019, 12:13:49 pm
content: Quote from: gmb42 on July 20, 2019, 09:52:42 amThen you are way more lucky than me. I have been burned by updates breaking stuff more times than I can count and then spending days to fix the system back to an operational state. The problem is that updates aren't just fixes but also updates to new versions which aren't 100% backwards compatible. In my case I have about 30 to 50 user applications installed and some rely on very specific versions as well. Updates are great if they are just fixes but somehow software engineers think that you should always install the 'latest & greatest' version.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2019, 12:33:14 pm
content: Just remembered how windows update ruined every single AIO computer of particular model in several offices in different countries of company I worked at. They could no longer boot completely and could not be fixed remotely.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2019, 01:35:07 pm
content: Quote from: gmb42 on July 20, 2019, 09:52:42 amFree cheese can only be found in a mousetrap.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2019, 02:37:52 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on July 20, 2019, 01:35:07 pmTell that to the owners of literally billions of devices without software updates and known vulnerabilities.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2019, 03:45:41 pm
content: I guess you never heard of the phrase 'the cure is worst than the disease'.A vulnerability is only a problem if people can get to it. In many cases the vulnerabilities are only a problem in very specific use cases.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2019, 04:29:14 pm
content: Well, it allows to choose your executioner, which for some people is weirdly reassuring.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2019, 04:31:33 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 20, 2019, 02:37:52 pmThink about it. A single entity has uncontrollable access to 80% of computers in the world. What if this control falls into wrong hands? This is a huge security threat for all of us and for each individual alike. This is way worse than all the little security threats it seeks to prevent.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2019, 04:45:50 pm
content: At one time I had a huge problem with an automated update and since then, I have automatic updates disabled on all my PC's for years already.Instead I am using a good firewall, anti-virus and anti-spyware programs.I do the same on some older XP machines and have zero problems.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2019, 06:06:27 pm
content: Free updates are fine, I get free updates on my Linux machines and I don't mind it at all. They're security patches primarily, they're clearly labeled as to what they are and do, nothing is obfuscated, I can choose what and when I install them.I would say it amuses me but in reality I find it extremely annoying when people smugly proclaim that it works for them and doesn't cause them any trouble and therefore it's fine. For me it is not fine when my computer is suddenly hijacked for an hour or more when I need to use it for something, or when it automatically force reboots while I've got half a dozen programs open with projects in various states, or when my settings that I have carefully tweaked are suddenly reset to default values, or when garbage bloatware I have deliberately uninstalled is installed again automatically. This is absolutely not acceptable behavior, I demand full control, the computer works for me, not the other way around. As long as companies fail to understand this they do not get my money. People need to understand that not everybody has the same needs or use cases and what is not a problem for one person may be a very big problem for somebody else.I work in the tech industry so I'm around a lot of engineers and power users and for everyone I encounter who actually likes Win10 there are at least 10 who hate it and either rejected it or regret upgrading, I'm certainly not alone. The fact that it took years of extremely heavy handed tactics pushing, nagging and tricking people into updating for it to even break 50% speaks volumes. That is tens of millions of people exerting considerable effort to avoid it and quite a few of those have good reason for doing so.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2019, 06:22:32 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 20, 2019, 03:45:41 pmYou will never convince a fanboy or corporate apologist, to them the company can do no wrong and the pathetic ignorant peons need to bend over and take it because someone else knows best.To the rest of us it is obvious that a computer that is doing unexpected things, acting as a platform to push and monetize products and services we didn't ask for thwarting our efforts to configure things and keep it under our control, and becoming unusuable for significant periods of time due to forced updates is indistinguishable from one that is infected with malware that is performing similar actions.Fanboys will also consistently ignore the fact that the vast majority of malware and virus infections out there are due to the user installing sketchy things, either random warez, crapware installers bundled with legitimate free software or various social engineering tactics to coerce people into downloading and installing fake virus cleaners and such. All the patching and updates in the world can't patch user behavior.Anyway it doesn't take a genius to see that the whole forced update thing is really all about monetization of the platform, only an idiot would believe that Microsoft gave Win10 away for free out of the goodness of their hearts to bestow a gift on humanity. It's free because it gives them unprecedented control over millions of computers and creates a platform for gathering marketing data and hawking their services. If a company gives you something for free then you are the product, there's something bigger in it for them, always.

author: dzseki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 10:31:07 am
content: Sorry for my ignorance, but receiving endless security updates doesn't mean that your computer has infinite vulerabilities, with updates MSFT just pathcing those they know of... so in the end the difference is little -in percentage- of the vulnerabilities with an obsolete and a recent OS?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 12:05:07 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 20, 2019, 06:22:32 pmIt seems the subscription model is the "plat du jour" of most of the big IT companies these days - Google, Apple, any number of application vendors. Look what happened to Youtube: it was free for years, then the advertising began... of course, you can subscribe and get away from that. Dropbox was free for years, today the restrictions are getting tighter, encouraging you to subscribe to regain lost ground.Microsoft and others want to remove the choice of "just owning the application" and being free to use it for 5-10 years, warts and all... yet that is actually the most cost efficient way to run the shop (which means, of course, least profitable for the vendor).What nobody seems to have thought through is that there are only so many subscriptions the average consumer, business, institution can afford to have leeching away at their accounts every month...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 12:23:19 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on July 20, 2019, 04:31:33 pmOkay, let's think about it. We've been getting black box updates all our lives. In theory you could refuse them, but few people or companies do this in practice. You wouldn't know what to refuse in the first place. We're not even talking about covert updates systems or the things you're trying to avoid already in the software from the start. So how much bigger is the current "issue" really? Not a smidegeon. It would be much better to have open source updates which can be checked and installed or refused at will, right? Except that it's not. Malware has been found in open source code and was cleverly hidden to look like a tiny coding error almost anyone would overlook in the unlikely event they'd be looking at the code in the first place.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 12:56:20 pm
content: Warning to Windows 7 users!!!I would disable/stop using Windows Updates now while things still work because believe me, sometime between now and January 2020, Microsoft is guaranteed to throw a monkey wrench into an unsuspected update and you will be fucked with no going back...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 12:58:57 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on July 25, 2019, 12:56:20 pmYou're thinking of Apple. Besides, it's much easier. Just reveal a massive security issue right after the end of support and people will be forced to upgrade or suffer.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 01:00:22 pm
content: I just got the first pop-up warning upon starting Windows 7 today about end of support.More information points you to a funny MS page:https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-7-end-of-life-support-information?OCID=win7_app_omc_winThey don't just suggest to switch to Windows 10. They actually suggest to buy a new computer!

author: dzseki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 01:12:17 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 25, 2019, 01:00:22 pmBut don't worry! Just this last time, pleeease. You know, Windows 10 is the "last" version you will not have to buy new computer anymore, you could enjoy all the upgrades FOREVER... or maybe not...

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 02:18:09 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 25, 2019, 12:23:19 pmThis makes whole world of difference. Say, with Win 7, when I realized that new updates are likely to be harmful, I simply disabled them and killed Update service. That easy. Of course there may be something I overlooked. Well, if Microsoft attacks, I'll just kill the whole box and move to Linux. I'm 90% ready for Linux.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 02:28:20 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on July 25, 2019, 02:18:09 pmYou're not getting the point. If the intent was to sneak a malicious update onto your system, Microsoft has had all the means necessary all those years. Updates were black boxes anyway, so you wouldn't know what to install and what to omit. You're also fully relying on Microsoft to only use the update system in the way they say they do and not to have any other systems or mechanisms in place. You're only fooling yourself that things are any different now when it comes to malicious updates being installed. You already fully trusted Microsoft to do what it said it does. You only think you had more control, but already fully depended on the good nature of Microsoft. Worse still, issues with Linux distros have shown that even open source code can be made to be malicious without people catching on.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 04:09:38 pm
content: Microsoft relies on trust. We like Win7 because generally, we sorta kinda trust it, having gotten used to it. Win10 on the other hand...

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 06:27:12 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 25, 2019, 02:28:20 pmI used to trust them in the past. But now I do not. They could've slipped something into my computer while I trusted them. But that's in the past. I cannot reverse past mistakes, I can only learn from them. You know: Fool me once - shame on you. Fool me twice - shame on me.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 12:36:52 am
content: I trusted their update system completely until they stooped to malware levels, coercion and trickery to aggressively push Win10. That trust evaporated overnight and I don't think they will ever be able to get it back.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 01:29:17 pm
content: Same here. My trust level was much higher until about the release of Win8.All updates used to be documented, it was possible to install them individually. The documentation was reasonable, sometimes even surprisingly so (especially in the older days). When you were in doubt seeing what a specific update was dealing with, you could issue a quick search online with the KB number and would usually find many reviews for those that were buggy or problematic. Then you'd decide not to install it. Done. Sure something could have eluded users, but it proved effective and workable over the years. I don't think I personally ever had a single problem with Windows updates ever since Win2000.On Windows 7, that was the case until they decided to release most updates as cumulative packages. That alone was preparing the end of Win7 and its separate updates.It may all be about trust, but trust is not something you magically get from people(/users) just because you have a name. Trust is something you need to earn and work hard to keep.So yeah, we used to trust MS more than we do now. That's not all random. There are objective reasons why we trusted MS and why we don't anymore.Trusting someone/something without any reason is not trusting, it's just being a fool. (Or being in love, which sometimes makes us big fools)

author: malagas_on_fire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 01:42:27 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 25, 2019, 01:00:22 pmIn the FAQCan I upgrade Windows 7 to Windows 10 for free?...." You can purchase and download Windows 10 on your device today. Although, if your computer is more than three years old, it might be time to consider upgrading to a new device. We would love to help you find a computer that’s faster, safer, and delivers the new features Windows 10 has to offer before your current PC slows you down."...So windows 10 will slow down the current Win7 PC ... good

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 02:26:21 pm
content: Quote from: malagas_on_fire on July 26, 2019, 01:42:27 pmFunnily enough, they were saying almost the opposite of that when they first released Win10 and offered the official 1-year free update.They released Win7 updates that were "checking" that your computer could run Win10 properly, but were pretty optimistic in their communication about compatibility. We could even often hear everywhere that Win10 was actually "faster" and using computer resources more efficiently than Win7.Funny how things change. Of course MS makes the bulk of their money on OSs through OEM installs on new computers. So now that Win10 has a comfortable market share, they have all reasons to "force" people buying a new computer. They know that most people wouldn't want to buy a separate license.Sure, not all Win7 users are in the same boat. You could be using Win7 with a 2009 computer. 10 years may be a good time to change computers, even though it may still be performing well enough. But you could also be using Win7 with a much more recent/or upgraded computer. The MS web page I linked to is very funny though I think. It's rather clear that it's targetted at people that are not computer-savvy.It's also interesting to see how it insists on the merits of having SSDs. They should just bluntly admit that Win10 is almost constantly churning through your drives' data, and on HDDs, it makes things almost unbearable. I had installed Win10 on a very reasonable laptop, but with a HDD (albeit a WD black, so pretty fast), to evaluate it. Everytime I try it, it drives me crazy. There is constant HDD activity and things are often unresponsive. On an SSD, it would probably be a lot less noticeable... little buggers...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 02:45:49 pm
content: Windows 10 is slightly less resource hungry than Windows 7. That makes sense, as 10 is an optimised version of 7 under the skin. We've confirmed this across a variety of systems, so it's not just marketing speak. I can imagine that this may change in the future as the rolling version of 10 adds more features though it's not a given.I'm not sure why people are looking to fault Windows 10 so hard but they sure are. Don't get me wrong, there's more than one thing to actually hate but those are rarely the things people are complaining about.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 03:21:39 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 26, 2019, 02:26:21 pmI have never seen this thrashing and I have Win 10 on at least 5 machines. Some with HDD, some with SSD and I don't see anything like what you are describing. And certainly not to the point that there is any perceived slowdown.On the tower machine, there is a disk activity LED so I pretty much know when the disk is doing something.In the end, none of the whining and sniveling will make any difference. Users will have to migrate to Win 10 or they will use an unsupported version. It's really that simple. Buying a new machine, given current prices, isn't such a bad idea.Over time people will migrate. It's pretty much inevitable.Are you sure the system isn't indexing the HDD for the Search feature? Or maybe updating a Cloud account?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 04:07:40 pm
content: i did an upgrade yesterday from win7 pro to win 10 pro.during install it asked me what features i wanted to turn on or off ( telemetry, cortana speach ,and all kinds off 'send-to-microsoft' stuff.) i switched all off .It retained all software and settings and the machine runs fine. it feels snappier than under win 7 (zbook 17 gen-2 which is 5 years old. these things are indestructible and basically portable workstations)I deleted everything off the start panel ( like all the stupid games and other stuff ) and simply pinned my most commonly used programs to the taskbar and the lesser used ones tot he start panel.It has not bugged me once. So it looks like the Pro version is the way to go.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 04:14:10 pm
content: It would be nice if turning all that stuff off actually turned it off but it doesn't, I'd say wait a few months and let the updates start rolling in before you give it a glowing review.Any freshly installed OS feels snappy, people always talk about how a new OS feels faster than the old one, it's not because it's a new OS though, it's because it's a fresh clean install. A fresh install of Win7 feels snappy too.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 05:46:19 pm
content: Correct. Over time Windows becomes slower and slower because it accumulates all kinds of crap trying to make the system fasterSwitch to Linux and you will experience how snappy a OS can be for real. Even under heavy load a Linux system stays responsive. Try that with Windows.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 09:02:44 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 26, 2019, 05:46:19 pmI recently had reason to install Windows Server 2003 on a VM, on a quite powerful host. Talk about snappy! - the mouse button didn't even finish its "click" before the job was done, with most operations.There's a lot to be said for simplicity...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 10:29:47 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 26, 2019, 04:07:40 pmYep, I'm running Enterprise on a 3.7G I3 and it works just fine.Had W7 for years and did a dual boot with 8.1 for a while to get used to its newer layout then jumped to 10 exclusively and it's getting better all the time. ON all the time and sleeping when not used and updates are becoming less frequent and if it does a reboot it seems to support reopening programs better now in that you have the option to continue where you last finished.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 10:36:09 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 26, 2019, 09:02:44 pmExactly.I use lots of old software because it's faster, less buggy, and gives me more control.If something was Ok in year 2000, it flies now. When I switch to Linux, I'll install Win2000 in a virtual box. It'll run all the software that I still have to run on Windows and it doesn't even require activation.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 10:46:58 pm
content: Same here, I still use Thunderbird from 2007, they ruined it in version 3 and usage gradually fell off until the whole product was killed. I use WinAmp 2.something from the early 2000's as a quick audio player, I use MS Office 2003 that I bought at the company store way back when I worked there and it's still great. I think with most products they steadily develop getting better and better and then at some point they are mature and there is nothing left to do but keep fixing it until it's broken.This is not exclusive to software either, it happens with all kinds of consumer products and I largely blame marketing. The effort becomes focused on reinventing the wheel and making it look new and different rather than making it better. It already does everything it needs to do and then some, it already has a great interface, it already lasts a long time, so just start making arbitrary changes and cost reductions and pretty soon it sucks and/or looks just the same as all the other marketing study driven designs. Just look at modern car design for example:

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 10:47:13 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 26, 2019, 05:46:19 pmI'll switch to linux the day all the stuff i use daily runs on it natively. Hopefully that day will never come , so i'm good.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 01:02:32 pm
content: It all depends on your use-case scenario, obviously there is no clear answer until we know more about your specific purposes, the environment the machine will be used in and what you plan on doing with it down the road. But I will share with you my experience doing a major office upgrade from Windows XP on a bunch of old computers (circa 2009) and that used a bunch of proprietary imaging gear drivers that were made by companies who have since disappeared and no longer update or support the equipment (which cost me tens-of-thousands of dollars to buy!!!).WIN-XP CATASTROPHE:I was running WinXP in a networked office environment on at least 6 machines tied to a Windows Server. Keep in mind all this was installed back in 2008-2009 or so, I can't remember the exact year, but it has been a decade for sure or perhaps more. I decided to keep with this system up until now because things worked and I did not want to face any issues upgrading, as there were a lot of proprietary specialized imaging systems attached that use special USB drivers that were made only for WinXP.Obviously WinXP support ended years ago, so I always had that annoying RED popup in the corner about End-Of-Support. Windows Defender wouldn't run, blah blah blah.... I was taking things into my own hands, living dangerously! And so I dreaded the upgrade process and procrastinated because of the cost and down-time involved. But I knew ONE DAY I would have to upgrade.ARMAGEDDON:So the DAY finally came crashing down on me at the end of June when there was an update in a critical piece of software that my office needed to communicate with insurance-related servers (to check certain things). The old communications protocol for that software was being shuttered and you had NO CHOICE but to use a newer version that needed to communicate using the new protocol, and that new version DID NOT RUN on WIN XP, PERIOD! It also had a few .NET dependencies and so on, all of which were not able to run on WIN XP. This was a *critical* need for my office to run and would have been a major pain if we didn't have it available to customer service. Therefore, it was time to upgrade!First thing I did was buy a Win10 Pro machine (refurbed) and set it to run on SMB1 for the time being, because it needed to be able to communicate with the server and all the other WinXP machines in the office network. That Win10 machine received the critical software (for insurance) update and WHAM BAM I was able to at least install the new protocol software on there to keep functioning.That took me out of critical situation for the moment.Next, I started migrating my WinXP machines to Win10 Pro. Yes! THE SAME MACHINES that I bought over 10 years ago, nothing special, I pulled out the hard drives (just in case I didn't want to write over my stuff if I had to revert) and bought some cheap SSD's. I installed Win10 64-bit on most of my computers, from a Win10 USB-key I made a while back, and it boots and runs smoothly! At least for the software I use in the office, it does not require "gaming" level graphics or anything like that. I'm much happier being on Win10. I used my Win7 sticker info either from some other computers I have and lo-and-behold, it installed and activated and did not complain a bit!The machines that plugged into the special imaging proprietary hardware gear (that used WinXP-era drivers) had to have Win10 32-bit installed on them. So I made myself another USB key with Win10 32-bit (downloaded the ISO from Microsoft) and proceeded to install it no problem. The drivers also installed and it took me a few tries and some hair-pulling to get them to work, because at first Win10 recognized the device based on the generic controller chip that was in it. I had to keep going into Device Manager and finding a way to delete or inactivate it quickly and letting my driver install get in first, otherwise it would keep trying to re-register it using a Win10 driver. Anyways, it worked!THE AFTERMATH:Now the entire office is upgraded to Win10, it still runs all the software that I had running on my WinXP machines... the same proprietary WinXP-era software (of which there is no good upgrade and that I need) is running fine. I also installed my old Microsoft Office PRO that I was using back on my WinXP machines... I know these can be vulnerable but I prefer not to buy MS Office again, and anyways I will probably migrate over to LibreOffice. I also will need to flip over to SMB2 now that the entire office is Win10... that will patch up another possible security hole.One piece of software that I could NOT find an update to that works on Win10 has to do with managing the VOIP system (TalkSwitch) that runs the telephones in the office. The software that lets me configure the VOIP box is no longer available, the old version does not run on Win10 and it was using a ton of Java code, and the Java runtime it depends on cannot be installed on Win10. I tried whatever I could, even registering on Java as a tested to be able to grab older Java runtimes and no matter what I did, the software gave an error. So the solution? I keep one WinXP machine still available but OFF in the backroom, so that if I ever need to configure the TalkSwitch (now Fortinet) VOIP box I plug it into the network and bring up the software and can make changes. Otherwise, that machine is unplugged/dormant.MORAL OF THE STORY...Win10 is not so bad as people think. I dreaded the upgrade, but it turns out even on my 10+ year old machines I was able to migrate and make old WinXP-era software work, even drivers that would have been impossible to update (and the equipment costs tens-of-thousands of dollars)... there was no way I was going to upgrade my hardware because of some stupid drivers. The solution was to use Win10 32-bit! I had a few issues with configuring 2-screen set ups but that was my fault because I didn't know about the Windows-Logo-key-P option to configure and switch screens. Also there was a delay in Windows 10 recognizing the NVidia graphics so it took 5 minutes after boot for it to actually install and let me configure it once and for all, and that was confusing because in those first 5 minutes I was scrambling to try to figure out why my video card is buggered up.NOW WHAT DO I USE AT HOME?I'm using Linux for all my private use computers, laptops, etc. One of my kids has a Win7 machine that he plays lots of games on, like Roblox for example.... try as I might, I can't get that to work on Linux/WINE. I did get many of his games to work on my Linux machine (WINE) but Roblox and a few others just don't work. So he stays with Win7 to play games, but it is a dual-boot so it has Linux on it as well, and everybody else in the house is using Linux (some flavour of Ubuntu although I've got many distros that I play around with).IN CONCLUSION...I think you should go to Win10 Pro and register it using a Win7 sticker, which Microsoft still appears to be honouring. If you are not ready to drop Microsoft altogether (and enter Linux-land) then that will be your best option. Unless you plan on being disconnected from the internet, you will face the same issues I had with WinXP in a few years. At some point you *WILL* need to move on with your life.I would use the PRO version, and when I installed Win10 I chose "NO" to all of their extra features like Cortana, customized ads, blah blah blah. Everything was "NO" and also I did NOT register with a Microsoft account. Just set it up with a local account and don't forget your password. That way the machine is not tied to any online account. That can be harder later with regards to licensing and so on, migrating, etc. As you saw in my case, I was able to use my old computers (which I thought for sure would choke) to run Win10 smoothly, no problem, and I managed to save myself from upgrading 5-figure $$$ equipment because 32-bit Win10 still could handle WinXP-era drivers. So I see no good reason to stick to Win7 if you are just careful at how you install and properly version your Win10 installation. And the updates can be throttled down and controlled somewhat if you know what you are doing. Meanwhile, try to see if you can function in Linux and prepare yourself a machine or dual-booted install, so if Microsoft does anything crazy in the future you have a lifeboat to jump into.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 02:43:09 pm
content: Haha, sometimes a hard no from a dependent company is required to invoke the upgrade path with the management....For the obscure viop tool: You can try to run XP Lite, it's 200 mb in size (there are iso's floating around) in an Virtual machine, for those special application.I have my Civic's service manual in it, since that only works with IE 6, and it's works amazing.I also prepared a Win 98 VM for some ancient drawing software.Just a word of caution on dual boot windows 10, the bootloader (grub) may be overwritten during an update. Make sure you have a procedure to recover from this. The bootloader from Windows 10 is really strange, as it won't even survive a disk clone anymore.Anyway, I'm due for a new work laptop. I'll see what the company will do with the 3 laptops still running 7 next January. When I see how much simple USB compatibility problems my coworker has with his brand new HP laptop, I fear many lost hours.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 03:02:04 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on August 15, 2019, 02:43:09 pmReally? So you can't actually clone disks now? Does changing disks involve a complete reinstall everytime?

author: HoracioDos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 04:59:22 pm
content: HiI resurrected an HP Pavilion DV4 notebook last weekend (2Ghz Dual core - 4GB RAM - 250Gb SSD - Win7) I was able to upgrade to Win10 using Windows Media creation tool. I thought that all options were closed two years ago but this one worked and now I have a digital licence. Please forgive me If this situation is too obvious for those who know better.Coming back to the subject, I was surprised about Win10 performance in this hardware. It is far better than before. I also installed a light linux distro in dual boot. It's rock solid for me and It runs perfect.Nowadays, I don't know how smart is to complain about Win10 features, updates scheme or telemetry and data collection. I'm not in favor, but does anybody know about any real case of data stealing?If you have enough hardware I think best option is to install any linux flavour you like most and set a Win10 VM for any absolutely necessary application.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 05:03:01 pm
content: It's a fresh clean install, of course the performance is great. The hardware requirements of Win10 are not an issue, if Win7 runs fast on a system then Win10 will run fast, that's not the problem.The problem is that Win10 is a train wreck, the UI is fugly and inconsistent, it is buggy and the forced updates mean a constant stream of interruptions and new bugs, it is not just an OS but is primarily a platform for monetization and pushing of their other services. I've never used such a user-hostile OS and I'm so glad to be free of it now.

author: HoracioDos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 05:32:04 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 15, 2019, 05:03:01 pmMost apps remained. It is not a fresh and clean install.Quote from: james_s on August 15, 2019, 05:03:01 pmI totally agree about UI. You can delay updates now for 7 days with 1903 built. I don't know what is worst for the whole industry, forced updates vs no updates at all. (Most people didn't care about updates) Now Microsoft sells some sort of operating system service (I don't know to call it) that allows you to run a computer programs in your own hardware but in the way that Microsoft wants. You can't customize this service for your needs. We are not buying OS license any more and we can't use our hardware or apps as we like or need.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 11:24:25 pm
content: I'm a big proponent of personal responsibility. If you don't update and your system gets infected, that is your problem. I don't update (anymore) because I have been burned multiple times and no longer trust the updates but it is my responsibility to secure my systems. Threats are always going to be out there but most of it is overblown FUD. I've cleaned up infected systems for people dozens of times over the years and in literally every single example I can recall, the infection happened because someone installed something sketchy. I don't think I have ever encountered a PC that was infected via some kind of exploit even once, ever.Note that I'm referring to *personal* computers, not outward facing servers that are directly exposed to the internet, those obviously need to be patched regularly.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 08:48:33 pm
content: I recently rescued a very nice highend Toshiba laptop from Win10 when its user had enough of the irritating moronic UIand spying. All i did was to boot the laptop via its Toshiba inbuilt boot mode in which you press a FN key who said: Factory Win7 install! Warning! Will erase everything on Hard Disk. Owner of laptop now very pleased again.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2019, 03:53:22 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 15, 2019, 11:24:25 pmSo am I.The only problem with that is that it may have consequences not just for you, but for others as well. An "infected" OS can for instance in turn become part of a virus deployment system.If you're computer-savvy enough, it's usually not a problem at all. Your probability of getting infected is already pretty low, and if it ever happens, you'll usually quickly notice it and take the required actions.For the average joe, not so much, and their computer could run infected for days or weeks before they even start noticing there is a problem, and could have participated in deploying the virus...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2019, 05:42:45 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 30, 2019, 03:53:22 pmDon't waste your breath. There's a few people on here who will insist they don't need an updated OS no matter how often their position has been debunked with sources and expert opinions. They'll just vanish only to pop up in another thread spouting the same bunk again. It would be funny if it wasn't harmful advice that some novice might take seriously.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2019, 05:58:48 pm
content: Advocating ANY extreme (e.g. that everyone must use the same solution) is probably the most incorrect answer being given here.Real advice acknowledges that different actions, or lack of actions, are correct in for some people, and wrong for other people. Decisions should be decided based on the circumstances, abilities, and desires of the individual or group, not by listening to whoever yells loudest on an internet forum.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2019, 06:26:46 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on September 30, 2019, 05:58:48 pmThose kinds of nuances have been discussed before too and while there are a few exceptions with specific conditions those don't tend to apply to general or even advanced home users. It seems to be a case of survivorship bias where anecdotal evidence is held in higher regard than industry sources or expert opinion. Arguments are waved away by positing people drank the cool-aid or some other conspiracy type reasoning.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2019, 10:51:50 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on September 30, 2019, 05:58:48 pmDon't waste your breath. There's a few people on here who will insist they MUST need an updated OS no matter how often their position has been debunked with sources and expert opinions. They'll just vanish only to pop up in another thread spouting the same bunk again. It would be funny if it wasn't harmful advice that some novice might take seriously... giving advice that by having updated OS then you are safe, is just as a dangerous advice.cheers.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 01:41:54 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on September 30, 2019, 10:51:50 pmCute, but almost completely untrue.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 02:18:46 am
content: Quote from: pcdroid13 on July 06, 2019, 11:38:11 amI have been using Win10 since it came out.It was a bit unstable and buggy to start with but improved as time went on.The problem with older OS is security updates no longer being supplied and/or support tailing off.You can now hold off updates for a while in update settings.I trust Win10 now and while Microchip MPLAB can tip it over the edge sometimes, everything else seems stable.

author: Pete66
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 02:21:13 am
content: I use both. I use Windows 10 at work. My main PC at home is windows 7.Windows 7 is what I am sticking with at home mainly because I don't like the way Microsoft is collecting data in Windows 10.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 04:58:50 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on October 01, 2019, 02:18:46 amthere are 2 schools of people, one is people who want to be top notched and ahead of everything, among them will give differing reasons, some believe because it is the safest. another school is people who prefer stability, nevermind safety, there's workaround for that. consider me the later. thats why i'm preparing the last install of the stable win7 to be ready for the end of the world. Cheers.

author: dzseki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 05:39:01 am
content: Quote from: Pete66 on October 01, 2019, 02:21:13 amAfter ending the support, you'll not like the way howotherswill collect your data in Windows 7, at least this is what the wise men say...

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 06:41:06 am
content: The prophet once said, there will be time when a fool is considered wise, and wise man is considered a fool.Ps: with a correct bragging style and correct flag you can win, regardless of what actual knowledge is inside or what the actual motive. IT personnels will have a much easier job if you connect to their server with the latest OS just to cover their incompetence.Btw if you set your OS correctly and installed appropriate guard sw, nobody is collecting your data, even in XP. Dont store your sensitive and family data in digital form. Yet encryption tech is not bound to certain OS, so you can install the latest tool if you have to. You are mocked as old age leftover community, well new tech to solve problems actually bring another problems with it.. the new tech geeks want less work and less memorizing things, being dependent to the tech. Well, as a 'wise' man here said, there is no security patch to ignorance.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 08:06:06 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 01, 2019, 04:58:50 amStability is a valid argument when you properly isolate the computer from any networks and keep it in quarantine. Computers used with medical equipment would fall into this category. If you use it as a daily driver stability and safety are synonymous. An infected computer isn't stable or predictable by definition.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 08:10:17 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 01, 2019, 06:41:06 am"Guard software" depends on the integrity of the OS. Even just using the computer to check your mail means the system and any successful attacker has access to a huge amount of potentially sensitive information. There is no patch for ignorance indeed.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 08:33:29 am
content: Amazed that with Windoze 7 going EOL this is even still debatable for general use cases. The only reason to persist with XP, 7 or shudder 8 would be for reasons of Hardware/Software that simply can't run W10 or Linux (if you must) current gen (not mentioning Mac as it is a WOFTAM for engineering use)Losing the real ports of XP used to be a problem but it is now so far in the past I can't think of anyone I know still running it for regular use. 7 is about toast but maybe for the next year or two it will remain possible to use it but after that apps will start leaving it behind. Likewise you will really need a strong and unfixable hardware/software reason to stay.8 - Sucked from new and Sucked harder in its short life and if you are still using itand are you really that stupid.For the sake of a cheap licence otherwise there is no other VALID reason to stay on 7 other than having your head placed........That said last month I removed from use may last 7 device as it wouldn't handle the upgrade to 10 so I decided to move on hardware wise.https://www.scdkey.com/microsoft-windows-10-pro-oem-cd-key-global_1227-20.htmlwith a voucher 'td20' from Techdeals is about the best deal going.Bye Bye 7 you weren't the worst Windoze.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 09:42:07 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 30, 2019, 05:42:45 pmQuote from: Mechatrommer on September 30, 2019, 10:51:50 pmI know a not of cases where the upgrade for a different version is practically impossible:- CNC machines (some older models when I worked with a Japanese company doing electric and electronic maintenance were machines that used specific images of Windows 95/98. When I left the company they were starting to sell machines with Windows XP installed);- Lots of Chinese manufactures have equipment that simply don't have software made to work with newer versions of operative systems, and they are not going to get an upgrade, only if you buy the newer model of the machine;- 2G and 3G monitoring and configuration equipment, specially the ones from Nokia Siemens Networks. Their equipments were being programmed and managed via VMs with Windows XP and 2003 installed, no chance to update the software to monitor alarms or input configuration or change firmwares, specially the ones based in the DX200, IPA2800, NT HLR and SURPASS hiS 700 - STP; The Open Mobile Softswitch - COTS ATCA MSS and Open Multimedia Gateway - COTS ATCA MGW they were based in Linux, but were under final development and when they were deployed for testing I wasn't anymore working there. The Geoprobe ones from Tektronics were running in machines powered by Solaris:- I know some accountants in Portugal that use a version of an accounting software that runs on DOS. Yes you have to have a computer who supports DOS or Windows 98 max to run it. And that includes old matrix printers too (I hate that sun of a guns... Yes they are very effective for the job in question but Jesus they are loud as hell and a pain in the rear to find parts).- and a lot more...Sometimes is cost forbidden or even not having a update path in some cases. I always used to think that way until I realized how some hardware are version dependent of old hardware or software, and even some times if it simply works and it's not broken why change for the sake of changing.Not every company have the luxury of loosing productivity time and/or learning a new tool just for the sake of upgrading.Could software developed for Linux solve that? Yes It could, that's true.It's the solution? Yes. It will it change in some sectors and be a great alternative.It's all in the hands of equipment manufactures for that to happen.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 09:51:39 am
content: Yep CNC is one of the few remaining cases for XP. A lot of the cheap CNC routers coming out of China even last year still needed a real port to work as the electronics was cloned from Western boards of 5 years+ ago.Industrial CNC gear with lifespans in the decades still run XP or earlier due to major costs in upgrades. Other than that CNC via LAN or even USB is now very normal. A mate of mine just went mid five figures to upgrade a big mill.Still no reason for keeping as a day to day working PC.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 09:56:07 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on October 01, 2019, 09:42:07 amMRI and other hospital equipment are other examples of a specific configuration being supported by the manufacturer and upgrade paths simply not being available. Point is that these systems are both isolated and protected in other ways. They're kept well away from any network. There are examples of where this hasn't been the case and those ended up being rather expensive affairs and downtime of vital equipment.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 12:21:26 pm
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on October 01, 2019, 09:42:07 amold and used LeCroy GHz DSO like SDA6000/DDA3000/SDA5005 also with XP in it. cant run on Win7 since some hardwares are not detected correctly, some still using 1.44MB diskette drive go figure. one may choose between this used machine and newest OS machine at the same spec except modern, priced 5 to 6 figures, they may suit themselves.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 01:26:05 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 01, 2019, 12:21:26 pmYeah, the TDS5000 series was using Windows 2000. They were basically using a pretty classic PC motherboard inside (like micro-atx or something like that), but all the specific drivers and software was specifically written for Windows 2000 and wouldn't work on any more recent OS version. Updating the Windows 2000 to the latest SP would usually work though IIRC (but trying that would be 100% at your own risk.)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 06:04:16 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 01, 2019, 12:21:26 pmNo one would network those old dinosaurs so that's obviously not what's discussed. Being or acting obtuse doesn't help the discussion.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 06:16:26 pm
content: Sneaker net. The one network that will never die!

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 06:18:49 pm
content: the OP doesnt mention about networking in the first placeand those old monster centainly can be networked.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 06:22:32 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on October 01, 2019, 06:16:26 pmA Stuxnet type vector where the infection is carried in is always a possibility but those seem to be comparatively rare. When you start swapping media you are definitely more vulnerable than when fully isolated.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 06:26:19 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 01, 2019, 06:18:49 pmHe was obviously talking about a daily driver. Stop muddying the water already.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2019, 04:39:30 pm
content: I have been on Win10 since it came out.It was a bit unstable to start with but seems mostly ok now.You can put off updates if you like.I sell software and am shocked by how many people still use XPYou really need an up to date OS with anti virus software if you use the internet.You can pick up Win10 pro keys for a few GBP on ebay so there is no excuse.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2019, 07:13:34 pm
content: Windows 10 is shit, that's the only excuse I need. I'm not one of those people who rips on something endlessly that I've never tried either, I was forced to use it for nearly 2 years at a former job and I found myself cursing it endlessly on a daily basis, it is the most user-hostile operating system I have ever had the displeasure of touching. So many times I'd walk into a meeting or have some urgent task I needed to do and find that my laptop was insisting on updating and the machine was out of commission for a half hour or more. Yes I know, enterprise gives more control but like many companies out there mine was smallish and too cheap to go that route so we were using Pro. The user interface was hideous, the most fugly, bland thing since Windows 3.0. It had a bunch of useless apps installed that I could not get rid of, at least not without significant difficulty and they would frequently come back like zombies after I had killed them. My settings were constantly getting changed, from the superior 3rd party software I had installed back to the default MS crap. More than once it uninstalled software I had installed because it said it was incompatible, but if I reinstalled it it worked fine. It just felt like it was fighting me every step of the way, which is something a freaking operating system has no business doing.I've been migrating to Linux for a few years and most of my ancillary machines are running that now so it's the path forward should Win7 ever become non-viable. For now I'm going to stick with 7 on my daily driver though, partly because I actually quite like Win7 and partly because I know it will cause much hand wringing amongst the Chicken Littles who are screaming that the sky is falling and all these dire things are going to happen and everyone is gonna die just like they did back when XP support ended. Well after some 20 years of having various unsupported OS's connected to the internet I'm still waiting for one to get p@wned and it still hasn't happened. Given the amount of grief I've experienced dealing with Win10 I'd still come out ahead if something finally got hacked now.I've cleaned up many, many infected, malware and virus infested machines for people and the one thing every one of those cases has had in common so far is they became infected by the user installing something, either infected warez, crapware surreptitiously bundled with legitimate software, or they weren't running an ad blocker and fell for one of those fake antivirus popups or email attachments. Many of these were fully patched fully up to date systems but of course you can't patch the user and that is by far the most common attack vector for personal computers. I run an up to date browser, use adblock and noscript religiously, and use some common sense, that has saved me from having any issues with infections. I disabled Windows Update completely years ago when MS started abusing it, incorporating malware tactics to push Windows 10. At this point the cure is truly worse than the disease, but there are of course rabid apologists who will excuse anything and everything that MS does, and some I'm sure are shills who have a vested financial interest in everyone adopting Win10.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2019, 09:51:50 pm
content: To be fair. I'm using windows 10 for a few months now. And they do learn, although slowly.I've installed it bydecrapifyingin the audit mode, this gets you rid of all the recurring UWP apps.The pro version allows you to delay feature updates for a year, so the "october update deletes your files" will probably go by me. And also patches can be delayed a month.You still can only delay the inevitable rebooting for a maximum of 7 days though. So Windows 10, even LTSC which replaces embedded, is unsuitable for 24/7 operation!Windows MUST HAVE a reboot once a month. There is only one other scenario I can think of that requires this,bugs.Anyway, for a workstation this is fine.Windows 10 still hides common settings in this ridiculous tablet mode. Getting to the network adapter overview is a pita, so much for many similar things.The lack of decent shell inhibits effective productivity and is imho just a job creator.However, they do try with powershell, but it's still not finished or the wrong time. As always with Microsoft products. Their product is wrong or they are doing it at the wrong time.I wonder if the server product line is just as bad...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2019, 10:16:55 pm
content: In my very limited experience administering Windows servers, the server versions of the OS are much better. They still have the fugly UI but that doesn't really matter for a server and you can do most of the administration via powershell now. I can't think of many reasons to run a Windows server anymore though, and outside of Microsoft itself, *nix experience is far more valuable on the job market. Most tech companies are all Linux on the back end these days.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2019, 10:35:48 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on November 30, 2019, 09:51:50 pmServer 2003 is actually quite good!

author: LeonR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 10:33:11 pm
content: I'm experiencing a weird thing on my Win 10 (that didn't happened back when I had 7): Sometimes my mouse cursor freezes for half a second or so, randomly and not linked to high RAM or CPU usage. I suspected it being a disk issue but even after changing my OS disk (upgraded my OS SSD, 256GB -> 500GB) it persists. It happens maybe twice a day. Haven't tried a fresh install though.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 06:47:15 am
content: Sounds like some driver spends too much time in an ISR.

author: dzseki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 06:48:25 am
content: Quote from: LeonR on December 01, 2019, 10:33:11 pmWindows 10 can do funny things. On my laptop the scrolling does not work in EDGE, but everywhere else yes.This was a problem last time in Windows 95...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 03:48:48 pm
content: Quote from: LeonR on December 01, 2019, 10:33:11 pmI have seen similar things in Win7. In my case, it was a tray application that was misbehaving and blocking the whole PC intermittently.Perhaps try stripping the system down by switching applications and services off one by one, until the problem stops - to identify the culprit.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 04:39:44 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 02, 2019, 03:48:48 pmCannot do it in Windows 10. Whatever you turn off, will automatically turn back on

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 04:50:26 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on December 02, 2019, 04:39:44 pmA bit like a bad virus.

author: LeonR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 12:02:07 am
content: Seems like disabling C-States did the trick. I suspected it was a power management thing because it happened mostly when switching applications. I already had High Performance as my default power plan. Power consumption seem pretty OK with just SpeedStep turned on, at least by the wattage and temp readings that CoreTemp/PPM Panel show. Temps are just 6ºC above ambient on idle/low usage.Had LatencyMon running and it didn't find anything weird, aisde from the occasional higher usage from DirectX/nVidia kernel drivers. The latter topped at ~1ms and the first at ~300us.For a "cleaner" system I used ShutUp10, by O&O Software. Just went with the default optimizations it suggests (that are already many). I just have the nVidia control panel outside Windows default stuff. I like my main desktop to be as clean as possible of resident software.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 12:11:15 am
content: ^Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 12:47:10 am
content: Windows Subsystem for Linux works greathttps://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 01:46:19 am
content: WSL is useless when you already have Linux machines and if you really want Windows bare metal you can run a proper Linux distro in a VM rather than use the WSL hack.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 08:45:49 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 03, 2019, 01:46:19 amwhy is it useless if you already have linux machines? what major thing can a "proper Linux distro in a VM" do the WSL can't?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 08:54:53 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 02, 2019, 04:50:26 pmAlso its now becoming ransomware, and own and take full control completely your PC, if its not constantly connected to the mother ship in Redmond.->Windows 10 users fume: Microsoft, where's our 'local account' option gone?

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 02:33:27 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on December 03, 2019, 08:54:53 amKeep putting nails in the coffin Microsoft. Go on, I dare you.Of course it was expected when they announced on the release of Windows 10 to be free to install for 1 year, including updates from cracked Windows 7/8/8.1 (specially the ones who used local VLK activation). When its free, then the product is the user.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 06:14:43 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on December 03, 2019, 08:45:49 amIt's redundant, and it's a subset of Linux, a Linux distro in a VM is the real deal, you can have the entire graphical environment if you want, I've found no reason to want to run Linux software under Windows, Windows is the problem, the thing I've been working slowly to escape from for years.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 11:01:21 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 03, 2019, 06:14:43 pmso it is more of a religious thing like being vegan?a computer doesn't become redundant because you have another computer. As for being a subset, can you give some examples that makes a difference? everything including graphics seems to work the same as any other linux machine

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 11:08:25 pm
content: What are you even talking about? There's nothing religious about it, WSL is redundant because I can already run a full Linux distro under Windows if I really want to. If I'm going to use Linux anyway then why put up with the hassles of Windows? I don't mind that WSL is there, it just does not seem like a compelling feature, I cannot figure out what it offers over what I already have. I run Windows only because I have a significant amount of software that requires Windows, I cannot think of any other reason to run that OS. If I'm going to use Linux software I can just run it on Linux and not have Windows making my blood pressure rise.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 12:00:01 am
content: People don't switch to Linux because they miss Linux command line in Windows 10. They switch to Linux to get rid of the rest of Windows 10.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 12:22:21 am
content: As a normal user Windows 10 does the job. You can block/delay updates if you like.I had to connect two computers using a LAN.There are bits and pieces all over the place in Win10 that need setting up to get it to work.In this case Windows 10 is the worst software I have ever seen, very user unfriendly.It seems like it was designed for techs to use, not normal users.I got Win10 when it first came out and it was a bit unstable for a while but is much better now.I have reinstalled Win10 about 10 times due to unrecoverable problems.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 04:53:11 am
content: Meanwhile my Win7 laptop has been humming right along since I bought it in 2015. My Linux machines have also just worked, never had to reinstall any one of them, networking and file sharing works fine on all of them, I'm even able to access my Samba shared folders from Windows and my employer issued Macbook. I haven't experienced an unrecoverable problem requiring re-installing since Windows 2000. That was generally a solid OS but it did break on me a couple of time.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 01:03:32 pm
content: ^I have Win 7 on all my PCs (about 7 of them), and it "just works"TM.I also have several old but good printers, which most likely are not supported in Windows 10.I have hundreds of applications collected over the years, some of which most likely won't work well in Windows 10.I have a big problem with all the surveillance capitalism going on, I don't like entrusting my digital life to the cloud, and I don't like paying monthly for things that rightfully should be bought outright.If I felt more comfortable about the above issues, I would have upgraded to Windows 10 a long time ago.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 10:50:41 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 02, 2020, 04:53:11 amThe Win7 install on my main workstation actually dates back to... 2009. I've of course upgraded the hardware several times since then, cloned the OS on different hard drives (and then, SSD), but without ever re-installing it! The machine itself has little to do with what it was when I installed the OS, but never had any issue when upgrading hardware (several times, I think it has seen 3 generations of Core i7 processors, a different motherboard for each, several HDDs/SSDs, several different graphics cards...) But it works fine to this day.

author: pcmad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 02:34:18 am
content: linux

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 02:41:21 am
content: Quote from: pcmad on February 12, 2020, 02:34:18 amNOI refuse to make my life more complicated than it already is. Having to create virtual machines and trick an operating system to run some of the software I use just isn't where I want to go.

author: pcmad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 02:58:46 am
content: come to the dark side linux is calling youelse i would go for win 7 as its good on resources and microsoft will spy on you lessor even xpanyway so what if updates stop you are still safe dont taken in by there scare tactics

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 03:02:00 am
content: I'm almost to where I could just use Linux for everything. Actually I could if I really wanted to right now but frankly I still find Win7 to be a bit nicer and more polished.Win10 looks and feels very rough around the edges to me though, it reminds me of Linux from 10-15 years ago, at least it did the last time I had to use it. Linux improving slightly while Windows regressed makes that switch a lot easier. If I have to get used to a whole new OS and lose the visual polish of Win7 I have little reason to continue to put up with MS and their heavy handed tactics. It feels like they've tried to copy all the things I hate about Apple and forgot to copy most of what I like.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 03:10:04 am
content: Quote from: pcmad on February 12, 2020, 02:58:46 amStill NOWindoze 7 (Windows 8 will but lets all agree it SUCKED)won't run the software I use on my main box and as of a few month ago I remove my last 7 box from use as it wouldn't handle an upgrade or the software I needed without a workaround.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 01:16:17 pm
content: Coming back to my early reply in the threadI have now taken the plunge of installing Windows 10.Linux is still, somewhat sadly, not an option for me, yet. I play too many games and have to use Windows at work.A couple of observations, after one day of using Windows 10 (1809):First of all, with a slow internet connecting, installing Windows 10 sucks. I have only a 6 MBit/s DSL connection, and downloading updates takes a loooooong time. The stupid thing is that this is a bandwidth hog, taking everything it can get, no matter that other active processes are currently using bandwidth. A running download for example was throttled down to single digit kBytes/s... I hope this calms down in the next couple of days where I just leave the PC on over day.The UI seems to be slightly bigger. Especially the Taskbar set to two-rows is obviously larger than under Windows 7, but I think the titlebar is also bigger. The scaling is set to 125% (same as I had it under 7), I have noticeably less screen space than before.To disable Telemetry as far as I can, and get rid of unwanted features, I used O&O Shutup 10, a small portable executable. This cannot fully disable Telemetry, but reduces it to a minimum without you having to fiddle around in dozens of menus. It can also get rid of various features, like bing connected search or Cortana as far as possible.I also disabled Hibernation and Fast Boot. Hibernation wastes 32GB of disk space in my case, and Fast Boot can wreck dual-boot machines. And even with Fast Boot disabled, the box boots somewhat faster that Windows 7 did.There is still some tweaking to do, I am sure of it. But so far it seems to work, and most obvious annoyances are disabled. Let's see how it will behave after the update to 1909.All in all it took me an evening to install (including a thorough physical cleaning of the computer) and another evening to get the first stuff restored from backup and up an running again. Updates are hopefully completing today. I have to admit: that was faster than I expected. This time also includes two curveballs I encountered: My QNAP NAS was still using an old firmware supporting SMB1 only, and Windows 10 would not connect. So that took an hour to update as well. And it seems my big internal storage harddisk is about to die...Oh, and I used my Windows 7 Ultimate key during installation, so that still works.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 01:39:03 pm
content: To me, the biggest issue with updating to Win 10 is all the older PCs and printers that are not supported in Win 10... you just know you will be spending ages trying to make it all work, and some of it will never work...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 05:24:53 pm
content: The huge UI elements is a plague across all sorts of software. There's an arms race where monitor resolutions increase which ought to allow more information to be displayed at a time, but then UI designers just make everything bigger to gobble up those pixels. I could fit more information on a 1280x1024 display in the late 90s than I can on a 4K display now. I'm always shrinking things down and finding they won't even go small enough, normally I zoom my browser out to 70-80%. I hate huge chunky UI elements, they remind me of the Duplo blocks for children too young to use Legos.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 06:19:24 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 12, 2020, 05:24:53 pmI couldn't agree more. Also, I don't like "flat" themes. You always have to guess if something is clickable or not...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 07:15:55 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on February 12, 2020, 06:19:24 pmAgree in spades. When you can only display a list of 3 eBay items on a 24" monitor, you know the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 07:49:41 pm
content: Yes I hate flat themes too, they threw out decades of UI development and visual cues that just worked in order to chase the latest fad. Apple ruined the beautiful plush look of iOS with version 7, Microsoft took flat to a whole new level with Win8, it's all so bland and drab, it reminds me of Win 3.0 on 16 color VGA which I'm just old enough to remember using. Actually even 3.0 had some nice visual cues and was totally usable on just 640x480 pixels.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 01:34:57 am
content: And why Windoze suits most of the world this mornings 'update' downloaded and said hey you need to reboot me. Picked a time while I made a coffee and when I sat backdown all was ready to go again. Doesn't mean the sneaky f'ers at Microsnot haven't automagically changed my settings or privacy but it is a no fuss operating system in most cases.Quote from: SilverSolder on February 12, 2020, 01:39:03 pmI used that argument to myself with XP and an old plotter eventually common sense one out and the then seldom used A3 plotter became salvage and I picked up an ex lease I3 for $120 AUD with then Windows 7. Same box is now happily running W10 and strapped to my Laser Cutter and will eventually run my larger CNC Router code as well. Leaving the good box for the heavy lifting before it gets to that box.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 01:49:37 am
content: The way to migrate if you have a lot of old equipment is probably to run Win 7 as a virtual machine on a Win 10 box, for those applications (and drivers) that won't work any other way.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 10:19:08 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on February 13, 2020, 01:49:37 amYou'd obviously have to segregate those Windows 7 VMs from the rest to prevent them from becoming entry points into your network.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 11:33:57 pm
content: Windows 10 is ok for entertainment purposes such as a HTPC or gaming machine other thing where you're mostly just consuming media that is full screen and not really interacting with the OS. If you're interacting with the OS itself and doing real work it's just a terrible experience and Linux is much better. I have a Windows 7 machine I use for gaming and will stay on 7 for as long as I can, but all my work really happens in Linux. I switched around the time Windows 8 came out since I absolutely hated it and the direction MS was trying to take Windows. Windows 10 is a bit better than 8 but I still hate the UI. Too much white, too much empty space, too much gray fuzzy text, everything is hard to find and hidden away, etc. Just hate it. You can customize some things if you use Classic Shell such as putting in a proper start menu, but that only goes so far.Just because you have an outdated OS on your network does not somehow make it easier for hackers to be in, provided you are actually using a NAT firewall at minimum (and you should be!) and not just port forwarding all the things. If you port forward anything to a machine, that machine should be on a separate vlan, no matter what OS it's running, even Linux, as it's not the OS that matters, but the security of the specific application that is listening on the port. If there is a remote code execution flaw or anything then they could get in that way. For example, even a VPN server. Remember heartbleed? Even if that's patched, who knows if there may be other exploits that are just not known yet. You never want to rely on just being up to date as it's never actually up to date. So any machine that is accessible from the outside should be segregated from the rest of the network.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 11:46:03 pm
content: I've said it before many times but I've cleaned up countless infections for people and not one of them yet has ever been an exploited vulnerability. It has always been the user installing something, every single time. Didn't matter if the OS was updated or not because the attack vector bypassed all of that, exploiting the user instead.If we were talking a server out there exposed to the public then absolutely, keeping it fully patched is essential. For a typical personal computer sitting inside a home network it's almost irrelevant. There's no reason for anyone to even bother trying to exploit unpatched old PCs because there is SO much low hanging fruit in gullible users that are SO much easier to exploit. This happens so often that it's silly to focus on OS exploits, doing so is like focusing on protecting yourself from a lightning strike and then driving down a busy freeway drunk with a mobile phone in your hand. Lightning strikes can happen but they're rare enough as to not be worthy of being your primary focus.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 01:08:54 am
content: That is so true as well. A lot of the "exploits" are design. You double click a file, it will open! If the file is malicious, well it will do bad stuff, and no amount of updates is going to stop that short of some kind of high end AI that can analyse every bit of code.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 01:20:49 am
content: You can't expect any operating system to protect against idiots or those really determined to do harm. This is not unique to W7, W10 or even Linux. Going back into the dim dark past crashing a HP3 or 9000 at Uni 'for fun' was easy when you knew how.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 01:29:12 am
content: Noob question, in windows, will running a nasty program, but NOT as administrator level privilege level, can do harm to the critical OS components like kernel, device drivers, booting and etc ?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 01:38:27 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on February 14, 2020, 01:20:49 amNor do I. My point is simply that all the chicken littles screaming that the sky is falling when it comes to people running outdated operating systems at home are either misguided or in some cases on the payroll of companies that benefit from consumers always buying the latest and greatest. Consumer PCs are rarely hit by exploits in the OS, it's just not a big concern. Having everything up to date can give a false sense of security, it's still ultimately up to the user.Servers and specific high value targets are where people exploit security bugs in the software.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 01:39:47 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on February 14, 2020, 01:29:12 amIt depends. A lot of malware will attempt privilege escalation. That's a fancy term for gaining a higher privilege level either directly or in multiple steps by using vulnerabilities. If successful it can do things the original user can't.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 01:43:57 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 14, 2020, 01:39:47 amSo there is no guarantee, say it can be done "easily" thru script kiddies, as it must be fully custom crafted right ?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 01:46:38 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on February 13, 2020, 11:33:57 pmHaving an outdated or vulnerable device in your network is a veritable risk to it and the rest of the network. Plenty of actual real world attacks use unpatched machines as a stepping stone to the rest of the network. Granted, it's more common in larger scale attacks on enterprise level environments. Having an outdated OS is an excellent way of turning a temporary foothold into a permanent one though.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 01:51:11 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on February 14, 2020, 01:43:57 amPrivilege escalation can be done by common malware encountered by the average consumer. It generally uses known exploits and therefore depends on users not having fully updated systems. Note that this can include third party programs like Photoshop or something like drivers.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 02:03:07 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 13, 2020, 11:46:03 pmThe fact that you mainly clean up computers for inexperienced users or those with bad habits doesn't mean vulnerabilities aren't actively exploited in real life. They are. I'd invite anyone to Google search "actively exploited vulnerabilities". The flavour of this week is a vulnerability for Internet Explorer that was abused before a patch was released. The user is arguably the most important part of a secure system but expedient patching definitely is a vital part too.https://threatpost.com/microsoft-actively-exploited-zero-day-bug/150992/

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 11:16:00 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 14, 2020, 01:46:38 amYou still need a way to gain access to that system though such as if it's acting as a server. Then yes you want to separate that off from the rest of the network as it will be a risky system - even if it's fully up to date. All systems are "outdated". In 10 years from now, Windows 10 will be considered outdated. Whatever flaws are in it then, exist today too (well unless they were introduced by another update, which happens). You don't want to rely on only being "up to date" for your security measures as it's a very fragile one. Even if you keep up with updates 100% of the time the minute they come out, it just means that you stopped being vulnerable - you were vulnerable the entire time before the update came out. It's best to block the vulnerabilities from being accessed in first place.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 01:25:05 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 14, 2020, 01:38:27 amThe last statement is dangerous as it may give people a false sense of security. You hint at zero days and you're correct that those are generally reserved for high value targets. Unpatched systems are however vulnerable to published vulnerabilities that aren't worth much on the grey and black market on their own. Instead they get developed into easily usable software that less skilled criminals then employ and will happily use against low value targets. Vulnerabilities are practically used against regular users even if you haven't personally seen or noticed it. I do agree the user is a huge part but that user stands little chance if there's a hole in the fence the crooks knows about. Read the first link below how known vulnerabilities become commodity exploits.The NCSC also has a section for individuals and families. The second of their top tips is to install updates as this reduces your vulnerability to attacks significantly. They don't have any commercial skin in the game and definitely know what they're talking about."Cyber criminals use weaknesses in software and apps to attack your devices and steal your identity. Software and app updates are designed to fix these weaknesses and installing them as soon as possible will keep your devices secure."https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/information/understanding-vulnerabilitieshttps://www.ncsc.gov.uk/section/information-for/individuals-families

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 01:44:15 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on February 14, 2020, 11:16:00 pmInstalling patches greatly reduces your risk. There will always be zero days but those are less likely to be used against the general public. It's much easier to get a temporary foothold in a network than a permanent one. Malware will generally try to escalate its privileges and what it can therefore do and finding an unpatched machine to fully own in the network is ideal. An unpatched version of Windows 10 will be little better than an unpatched version of Windows 7 which is obviously now all of them. It's also not a matter of doing one thing and being absolutely safe. Security is about adding layers and closing holes and being as safe as possible. It's always a combination of measures. Having a sensible user and installing patches and only exposing to the network and internet what you must and various other measures.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 05:53:03 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 15, 2020, 01:25:05 amRelinquishing the control of your computer to a third party is hardly a solution.Even if you have full trust in Microsoft, any weakness in the system of automatic updates can give an attacker instant access to all the computers using such updates. Only a complete idiot may believe that, with the huge flow of updates fixing OS vulnerabilities weekly, the update system itself is somehow immune to any possible attack.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 02:43:29 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on February 15, 2020, 05:53:03 amCertainly, but this is something many have a hard time grasping.I may venture that it comes down to the fact that many prefer handling the responsibility to someone/something else, even it that means taking more risks. If anything goes wrong, they have someone else to blame, and it usually feels a lot more comfortable than having to blame oneself, regardless of the end result.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 04:38:08 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on February 15, 2020, 05:53:03 amYou're correct that update mechanisms are a vector and one that should be taken seriously considering the potential consequences. The risk is similar for Linux where you have to trust the repo. Even those that compile from code won't read all of it with the attention of an audit and you still have to trust your compiler and hardware manufacturers and others.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 05:05:29 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 15, 2020, 02:43:29 pmMicrosoft has switched to the new model exactly because too many people were running woefully outdated systems. While I don't agree with the current solution as Microsoft seems to focus on its own interests instead of just fixing the issues at hand I do recognize the problems they're trying to fix. It was a shitfest. Few people have the abilities and discipline to consistently ensure a proper patch level of their OS. The cavalier attitudes of some people in this thread underlines this.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 09:03:23 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 15, 2020, 05:05:29 pmAbilities have nothing to do with the freedom of choice. Microsoft could have offered their maintenance services to the people who wants them instead of forcing them upon all W10 users. They didn't. Now all the W10 users have to give up their freedom in exchange for Microsoft protection.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 10:02:24 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on February 15, 2020, 09:03:23 pmPeople had freedom of choice and it was an utter clusterfuck. The cavalier attitude towards updates we see in this thread was a part of that. People have been terrible with the freedom of choice they had as it not just impacts them but also others. I'm not saying Microsoft's answer is the ideal solution as it blatantly isn't but that something had to be done was abundantly clear. Note that I'm also not saying all freedom of choice should be eliminated as an answer to ineptitude and inability. I'm fairly sure a more elegant solution is possible though it'd likely serve Microsoft's commercial interests less than their current one.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 02:40:43 pm
content: "To upgrade, or not to Upgrade"That seems to be an age old question in ITBack in the days when Microsoft forced Windows 10 down the throat of it's users, while at the same time also pushing Telemetry, I faced a dilemma:Upgrade regularly, while trying to filter out the unwanted crap? Risk having something slip by and wake up to a Windows 10 Desktop?Or disable updates?From my phrasing, you can deduce what my solution was.I disabled updates completely.How I was able to justify that for me:- I have nothing open inbound to my machine. It sits behind a NAT Router, with uPNP disabled and no port forwarding rules. So stuff like unsecure RDP never affected me.- My network is small. The Win 7 box, a QNAP NAS, an iPhone, an iPad, a printer. Nothing reachable from the outside.- Firefox as my default internet browser. With various privacy related Plugins. Also relatively "safe" browsing habits.- Little installed software, except games (from known sellers, no cracks) and a couple of CAD applications, mostly open source.- And finally: Not all that much personal information on my machine anyway. No online banking at all.Until last week, I never noticed any issues at all. The machine was always very reliableBut I finally caved and upgraded that machine to Windows 10 (with a new boot drive), and will keep updating that.One thing note here: as far as I know, with Windows 10 1909, Microsoft enabled the ability to postpone feature updates, including major upgrades, indefinitely, at least in the Enterprise Edition. So this seems to be a massively requested feature, and they caved in, at least somewhat.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 02:56:16 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 15, 2020, 05:05:29 pmI'm so sure this is the main reason.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 03:51:10 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on February 17, 2020, 02:40:43 pmLoL. Once the trust is gone, it's very hard to get it back.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 04:04:52 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 17, 2020, 02:56:16 pmIt's definitely one of the main reasons, but obviously not the only one. If you've ever had to upgrade an older version of Windows through the update system you probably know it can crap out at random moments with often convoluted troubleshooting if at all possible. The new model seems to have fixed a lot of those problems but was obviously also used as an opportunity to introduce other elements most people rightfully aren't fond of.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 04:08:22 pm
content: Control over updates is good, but even with Windows 7 there's a lot of obfuscation ("Rollups") that make it difficult to get security updates only. Or has that changed? (haven't done an update in a long time).The other major issue I have with 10 is the built in "Windows Apps", including Cortana and their browser. I require complete control over that garbage. I don't want to have to go through every one and set a bunch of stuff so that nothing constantly runs in the background and "shares" your data. I want to be able to erase every trace of them from the drive.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 10:25:20 pm
content: 8 pages in and it appears Windows 7 'upgraded' with a Windows 10 glary blue window skin and jiggly tiles may be the way to goSomeone must have knocked one up by nowQuestion for Win 10 user/pluggers and or Win 7 bashers:Gamer advantages and securityfear factory BSreasons asidejust what 'vital' third party apps work on Win 10 but not Win 7,and can life go on without those few non working apps, if any..?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 10:48:29 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on February 18, 2020, 10:25:20 pmI don't think application support is currently making a large difference. The end of Windows 7 support will inevitably mean developers no let longer develop for compatibility and a slow decline is to be expected, although I doubt it will become a practical issue soon. Drivers may become an issue sooner.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 12:40:00 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on February 18, 2020, 10:25:20 pmIn my case Davinci Resolve and Fusion 360 (Windoze 8 still has support for a while butis a dud). Most of my other day to day software would be fine on 7 but for the few $ if your hardware will support it then get it done.To minimise big brother conspiracy issues Run through thesehttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEbaEyM-xt9m_3PLH6QOfbb2b79XRakZsand if you still have concerns then unplug put on your tinfoil hat and sit in the dark corner with your candles for light and heat

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 03:20:53 pm
content: While it might be possible to 100% prevent Microsoft from spying on you by way of Windows 10, the effort required looks to be monumental. If you can only get to 99% what go would that do?I might try it just to see how hard it really is, but I think the better option is just don't store anything, don't do anything, and don't go anywhere on a Windows 10 machine that you would prefer no one else know about.The only reason I might ever actually use Windows 10 would be to play a game that will not run on anything else. It would have to be an extremely good game for that to happen.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 03:54:41 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on February 17, 2020, 04:08:22 pmRollup updates in Windows 7 started to appear after Windows 10 was released IIRC, and that was preparing the phasing out of Win7 IMO.Before Win10, Windows 7 had separate updates for every KB item and you could select them on an individual basis.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 04:26:28 pm
content: Yes, that's correct. Back then you could pick and choose, easily avoiding the useless ones and those where Microsoft tried to sneak tracking and other spyware into older versions of Windows.I used to scrutinize each and every one before installing. Funny thing is that it seemed like the majority of security updates were not actually for the OS but patches for some flaw in Internet Explorer.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 04:47:19 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on February 19, 2020, 04:26:28 pmAhah, correct. Not surprising though, as web browsers were and still are the easy way in for security exploits.These days, this has kind of shifted towards .NET stuff. Heavy patches for .NET every month.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 04:57:05 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on February 19, 2020, 04:26:28 pmThe many fragmented updates were a large part of the issues with the update system. The rollup model is a way of both fixing that and also having less configurations in the field. Both aren't entirely unreasonable either though I would personally have preferred to keep the granularity and have the update system redesigned to better handle the issues. I'm not the one writing or supporting it though.Not that it would have kept the spyware out of Windows 10. It's woven into Windows instead of tacked on through an update so the only recourse is to find a version which allows turning telemetry off and blocking the hell out of tracking domains.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 06:21:39 pm
content: I think the idea with updates made the software much less secure. Now vendors don't test well because they always can update - who cares about bugs - just kick it out of the door as quickly as possible. Also, most existing software is over-bloated and over-developed. In such situation, it is almost impossible to ensure any reasonable level of security. I think a hacker with enough brain and enough perseverance can break into any computer.For security you need lean, simple, and efficient OS which provides minimum services. If anyone wants any extra features, they can just install the software which does whatever they want. This would produce diversity and everyone would be happy. Actually, this is how it was in the beginning. Then, little by little, everything migrated to "develop for an idiot" concept, at a great loss for the rest of the world.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 04:48:41 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 07, 2019, 05:03:46 amI have used Win 10 since it came out.It was bit unstable to start with but is mostly ok now.I have had to reinstall it a few times but usually because I broke Visual Studio.I have a lot of valuable stuff on my PC so Win 7 no longer cuts it.I sell pcb design software and you would be gobsmacked at the amount of messages I get asking if it runs on XP !!!

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 07:35:12 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on March 31, 2020, 04:48:41 pmDoes it?

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 12:41:44 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on March 31, 2020, 07:35:12 pmPCBCAD51 yes.PCBCAD360 anything after XP.PCBCAD720 Win 7/10 only

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 01:56:28 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on April 01, 2020, 12:41:44 pm7/10 but no 8.1? What oddball library is that?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 02:38:16 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on February 19, 2020, 06:21:39 pmI agree.This is slightly off-topic, but for those same reasons, software should never be able to modify itself or its own configuration files; you should always separate privileges between normal operation and updates/configuration.Most web thingies, like this here forum, are exploited via the lack of that privilege separation. For example, the file upload mechanism might be exploitable so that it creates or modifies a script file; then triggering its execution lets an attacker execute arbitrary code with the service privileges. Yet, there is basically never any need to allow users to upload scripts in server-executable form. It is only needed if you insist on the service being able to self-update/upgrade.I have designed a POSIX user/group scheme for separating privileges for a web forum between login/password management, uploads, downloads/normal web access, one or more configuration administrator, and system-level updates. It works, and completely stops e.g. script drops/bombs. Difficulty is, none of the existing web hosting schemes can support it (because the existing management apps do not support such schemes; only one user account per vhost, or one group and one or more user accounts per vhost; neither of which is enough), and nobody actually values the security enough to fund/support developing it further, especially when it requires at least a private virtual server (instead of just a standard web hosting account) to run.We could do much better, we just choose not to, because it is not considered cost effective.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 03:41:28 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on April 01, 2020, 02:38:16 pmAwww, poor Bobby Tables.He'll probably have a real rough time registering on that forum.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 04:35:26 pm
content: Quote from: mrflibble on April 01, 2020, 03:41:28 pmNo, because input sanitizing is a completely separate issue. (And one that PHP's "magic quotes" just made a lot worse, because it only made it easier for poor developers create something that appeared to work, but could still be exploited. You can write pretty secure PHP code, there just are a number of configuration settings and tunables that can make that code fail or become easily exploitable.)Me, I've never had any issues with that, because I started mywetweb work by making sure stuff like Ö and å were handled correctly by my server-side stuff, in the mid-to-late nineties. My code would treat his full name,Robert'); DROP TABLE Students; --, as an opaque sequence of Unicode glyphs, and never try to parse any of it.(Which reminds me: If you want to sort people alphabetically, you better use separate fields for their first names, last names, full names, and nickname. Yes, it is repetitive, but any way to automagically split it will fail, at least for some people. We humans are fun-ky!)Privilege separation works on a much lower level. (I do believe the same scheme would work just fine in e.g. Windows, too, I just haven't verified it.)It moves the majority of exploitable security checks and lack of checking from the code to the OS/kernel.Essentially, the web server (typically Apache or Nginx nowadays) handles the protocol (HTTP over TLS), and forwards each request to a worker process based on the URL. Obviously, not every worker needs the same privileges, yet that is how they currently work; they all run at the administrator privileges. I've happened to work on servers for a number of different organizations from small companies to universities, and worked out the worker privilege hierarchy that things like discussion forums need in practice. It is just software engineering, with a lot of data and practical experience backing up the design. I've also done things like design the user/group hierarchy for the human users modifying the content on the server, when you have a lot of sub-projects and partially overlapping privileges. It's kinda like solving burr puzzles, really. However, I do not know all the features the people running the forums need, the interfaces needed for effective moderation and so on, so I cannot build a web forum on my own. I can do the underlying engine, but I'd need help from other people to build the user/moderator interfaces and so on.Apologies for getting off topic. UAC wasn't part of the first few versions of Windows, but definitely is part of Windows 7 and 10. I wonder if there are still OS folks at Microsoft who do not see UAC the way I do, and just feel it is a necessary obstacle to be worked around? Many current Windows applications seem to be designed to be self-upgrading, which does open the exact same security issues it does for web forums... I dunno.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 05:47:27 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on April 01, 2020, 04:35:26 pmUAC was just a fancy name for handling user account privileges/security, something that was already there in Windows NT AFAIR, so any Windows version starting with NT and derivatives (2000, XP, ... up to 10) implement a relatively proper user account management.What is defined as UAC by MS was, I think, introduced in Windows Vista (and mind you, was one of the reasons so many people were put off by Vista at the time, how ironic), and the addition to just account NT management was, AFAIR, just the fact that you could create user accounts with bastardized privileges: meaning you could have administrator privileges, but the OS would still warn you and ask for confirmation for certain operations requiring escalated rights. In a way, it was akin to "sudo" rights in Linux, but with the added feature that typing your password to validate the operation was not mandatory - just a fricking confirmation dialog with an OK button to click on. Still, that was a progress from what Windows users were accustomed to, as a typical user account would run with restricted privileges all the time, and you could elevate privileges on demand. From what I remember, when Win2000 was released, it was in fact just Windows NT 5.0, but of course the targeted audience was not the same, so most people tended to create user accounts with Administrator privileges (to avoid constantly swapping between users) and that was not that great. But if you were not lazy, you could absolutely create an Administrator account to handle administration tasks - including possibly installings apps - and then user accounts for your daily tasks. MS just noticed that almost nobody cared to do that, so they had to find something intermediary.Quote from: Nominal Animal on April 01, 2020, 04:35:26 pmAs I noted above, you need to define clearly what you mean by UAC.User accounts with privileges exist starting from Win NT, which is a very long time ago. UAC was just added sugar on top of NT user accounts IMO, meant to make user accounts a bit less "painful" for the average joe.Anyway, surely, dealing with possibly restricted privileges is often an annoyance for developers, so I wouldn't be surprised if many were still trying to work around them when possible instead of just doing with them.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 06:06:16 pm
content: The problem with UAC and user accounts on Windows was mainly that Microsoft didn't make much of an attempt to explain any of it to the user.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 07:59:37 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 01, 2020, 05:47:27 pmYup. 3.11, 95, and 98 had none.Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 01, 2020, 05:47:27 pmThe general concept of user privileges, really.Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 01, 2020, 05:47:27 pmThat's who I was referring to, too; not the MS OS developers, but the MS application developers. FWIW, I've never found restricted privileges annoying, because I use them to limit the reach of my blunders -- I have them workingforme, not against me.But, like I said, I can imagine that a developer who wants their application to be able to upgrade itself at run time, finds restricted privileges annoying; it's just that that model is basically impossible to secure in any meaningful way. The problem is not in the OS, in the programming language, or really anything technical per se; it is just that many application and service developers use rather insane paradigms, like self-upgrading/self-modifying applications, without understanding their security implications.(As an example, it is difficult for malware to infect your application program and spread, if your application cannot modify executable binaries. Finding a simple buffer overrun/arbitrary code execution bug to exploit no longer suffices; you also need a kernel privilege escalation bug to exploit as well. The latter are much rarer than the former type of bugs.)This is what I mean when I saysecurity cannot be applied on top afterwards; it must be designed in from the get go. Security is part of the design process, not an optional feature. Very few online resources talk about proper privilege separation in application design, however... I'm not familiar with the MS dev resources, but my understanding is that they too fail to make it clear to application developers how important privilege separation is, and how to do it right (in typical situations).Thus, I definitely think that the design paradigm wrt. updates -- on one hand, letting users discover any issues, and on other hand, thinking that self-modifying/updating applications are perfectly reasonable in a general purpose operating system; or more generally that everything can be updated afterwards -- is a central source of security issues, just not an immediately obvious one.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 08:32:36 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on April 01, 2020, 06:06:16 pmAnd it is also implemented poorly so lots of people run as administrator anyway because some software won't work (especially in the early days).

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 09:46:06 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 01, 2020, 08:32:36 pmIt also assumes that people know when to allow the access and when not. But they don't. So, they always agree, making the system totally useless.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 10:01:43 am
content: The same problem is on Android phones, too: most people just grant the privileges requested, because otherwise the apps won't work right.It is really not a technical problem per se, or at least one that you can blame the OS developers for, it is a problem in the human approach to privilege separation. Like I said, many (most?) application and service developers do not seem to understand privilege separation at all, and rarely use it to their advantage, and feel it is an annoyance instead. I guess we don't really have a good non-technical-human-understandable model for application/service privileges yet. No wonder, then, that our software is so full of security holes...

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 04:01:44 pm
content: I have used Win 10 since it came out.It was a bit buggy and unstable to start with but is about 99.9% fine now.I recently had a customer complain the software I sold him wouldnt run under Win 7 32 bit.According to Microsoft it should.So I installed Win 7/32 on my pc and indeed it doesnt even with SP1 and other prerequisites.So I tried to install Visual Studio to find out where my code crashed out.That didnt get past the installer before crashing out.So gave up.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 04:02:55 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on April 01, 2020, 01:56:28 pmI choose to ignore Win 8 as its obsolete.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 04:05:23 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on June 07, 2020, 04:02:55 pmWindows 7 and 8 are obsolete but 8.1 isn't.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 04:51:13 pm
content: Whereas "obsolete" is all a matter of perspective here and mainly depends on whether you're ready to "lose" some customers due to not supporting specific OS versions, the following figures tend to show that nigelwright7557's approach makes sense:https://gs.statcounter.com/os-version-market-share/windows/desktop/worldwide/

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 04:52:56 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on April 02, 2020, 10:01:43 amThe real issue is that the surveillance capitalist business model depends on getting access to as much data as possible... they WANT access to your contacts, location, etc., even though it isn't necessary to do what the app does (e.g. show recipes for yorkshire puddings).The primary purpose of many apps is to engage in surveillance, whatever function they do is just bait!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 05:14:20 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 07, 2020, 04:51:13 pmAn OS is either supported or obsolete. Windows 7 is obsolete.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 05:52:44 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 07, 2020, 05:14:20 pmIf you are on a special plan with Microsoft, it is not obsolete - it has another couple of years or so to go, with full update availability, if I remember correctly.It will still be around in various terminals and fixed embedded systems for years after that...There are still hundreds of millions of PCs out there running Win 7.Win 7 is/was a well loved Windows version...

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 05:59:02 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 07, 2020, 05:14:20 pmNo, an OS is either supported or not supported. Obsolete is defined by different criteria.In one sense, Win7 became obsolete when it was no longer being sold (but was still supported).In another sense, Win7 may still not obsolete in certain applications. For instance, some medical devices are running Win7 and some new devices are probably still being shipped with Win7. Certifying stuff for a new OS is non-trivial for such things.For that matter, I'm pretty sure there are still medical devices running XP in active use -- not long ago I watched an ultrasound scanner of the right vintage (CRT displays, even) being used to search for blot clots. One doesn't stop using extremely expensive devices that still work just because the OS is technically out of date.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 06:05:28 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 07, 2020, 05:52:44 pmMere mortals don't have access to extended support. We can go back and forth about specifics and people tend to regularly get very touchy when it comes to Windows 7 but the long story short is that it's obsolete.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 06:18:24 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on June 07, 2020, 05:59:02 pmLet me make it very clear I have no interest in another silly and senseless argument about OSs. People somehow tend to get ridiculously emotional so I'm sticking to what we objectively know. Windows 7 is past End of Life. Ancient versions of Windows on expensive devices have little bearing on this situation, for various reasons. Unless people are saying they're designing PCBs on ultrasound scanners. In that case I'm slowly backing out of the room and leaving people to their kinks.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 06:30:07 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 07, 2020, 05:14:20 pmNo. As a software editor, you either support an OS or you don't, according to 1/ your customer base and 2/ your abilities. Given 7 still has a significant market share, wheras 8 and 8.1 don't, there is nothing else to consider here. As I said, all that matters is whether you want to lose customers or not. Everything else is wank.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 06:34:48 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 07, 2020, 05:14:20 pmWebster suggests that "obsolete" means "no longer in use or no longer useful". According to NetMarketshare, Windows 7 is used by 25% of the market (surpassing MacOS by huge margin). For me, it will forever remain the last useful version of Windows.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 06:35:25 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 07, 2020, 06:30:07 pmWindows 7 is past End of Life. Anything else can be endlessly argued and debated and is indeed wank, though it does appear almost all relevant developers seem to follow suit.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 06:37:57 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on June 07, 2020, 06:34:48 pmIt's no use arguing personal opinions as they will inevitably end up wildly varying. I don't think we need another one of those discussions.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 06:39:34 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 07, 2020, 06:18:24 pmLet me be equally clear. While I still use Win7, that wasn't my point at all. The point is that you are using two words that are neither opposite or mutually exclusive.Obsolete is not the opposite of supported. Supported products can also be obsolete.And vice versa: Current is not the same thing as supported. There are plenty of modern products on the market that have absolutely no support -- caveat emptor!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 06:57:35 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on June 07, 2020, 06:39:34 pmIt's exactly what Keysight calls it yet I've never seen anyone get upset about the 34401A being called obsolete, despite many people still using them and probably being useful for a long time to come. Though to be fair, the official term is indeed End of Life, which is a euphemism for "dead". That just sounds a bit more unpleasant, which is why I was trying to avoid either.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 07:12:15 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on June 07, 2020, 04:01:44 pmToo bad. Maybe an older version of VS still works. And isn't there some kind of stand-alone debugger? There may be other causes too. Some software crashes if you disable the file history on Windows for example. Perhaps it is just a matter of going through your code and verifying you are catching all NULL pointers you may get from system calls. Or you are allocating more then 2GB of memory.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 07:24:33 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 07, 2020, 06:57:35 pmIf some days Keysight moves to "Scope as a Service" business model, this won't make real scopes obsolete - people will still use them until they work. But this will make Keysight themselves obsolete very quickly - nobody will care whatever gibberish they say about not supporting real scopes any more.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 07:34:41 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 07, 2020, 06:35:25 pmThat was not the debate here (at least not in my reply, relative to what nigelwright7557 decided, and which some found odd.)Again, as a software editor, your only concern is whether the OSs you decide to support have a significant market share or not. Else you lose customers. Simple as that. And if you're willing to lose customers just to make a point ("I told you it was obsolete, dammit!"), that's your problem, but usually not a wise decision. You may decide this if you don't have the resources to keep supporting it. And here, it exactly looks like what nigelwright7557 did. And again if he had to choose between dropping 7 or 8/8.1, the market share figures make the decision pretty obvious IMHO.Since Windows 7 still has between 20% and 25% (depending on the source) of market share among Windows users, it IS significant enough to decide, as a software editor, not to drop support for it.And knowing many engineers, I'd even venture that this % is higher among engineers themselves, so if you sell software for engineers, well. That's definitely significant.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 08:09:26 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 07, 2020, 07:34:41 pmWise or not, the vast majority of the market has dropped Windows 7 support or is preparing to do so. As nigelwright7557 has found, supporting unsupported versions can lead to frustrations for your customer and there may not be a lot you can do about it. Avoiding the risk of supporting your software on unsupported platforms makes a lot of business sense, no matter the market share. Looking at the numbers it seems that the Windows 7 market share is significantly smaller in parts of the world like the US and the EU where most revenue tends to be generated and is significantly larger in markets like Africa and India. I can only imagine companies know their customers and their books and have taken this into account.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 08:34:15 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 07, 2020, 08:09:26 pmWhere did you get this information? I use Windows 7 and, except for Intuit Tax software, I haven't seen a single vendor who would drop support.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 08:48:19 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on June 07, 2020, 08:34:15 pmWe checked to see the impact of Windows 7 going EOL on our software library and found this to be the case. Many applications are either no longer supported or using Windows 7 isn't recommended. Solidworks ended support. Autodesk's Fusion 360 ended support. Adobe CC ended support. Altium is recommending against it. KiCAD ended support. Chrome still supports it but essentially announced that's not going to last, which impacts a lot of saas applications. The list goes on.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 09:05:59 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on June 07, 2020, 04:01:44 pmvisual studio, which version?i managed to install VS6 on win10 and i run VS6 on a semi-daily basis, on windows 10.zero issues. In fact, it seems to be running better than in win 7.(There are many guides on how to do this, but you may also need to install the visual studio runtime separately)from time to time i have to install more recent versions of studio, zero issues.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 09:13:45 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 07, 2020, 07:34:41 pmI agree. Mr Scram is just repeating his opinion but the reality is different. Software companies will support Windows 7 for as long as there is a benefit. To me personally the whole Windows thing is obsolete so I'm not going to invest in migrating (not even sure font anti-aliasing can be fully disabled in Windows 10 nowadays; if not then that is a hard fail because anti-aliased fonts give me an instant headache). By the time Windows 7 is no longer useable I won't be needing Windows anyway. I'm still using Windows XP (in a VM) on an almost daily basis for a few programs that are convenient to use.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 09:22:59 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 07, 2020, 09:13:45 pmThere is no opinion. Windows 7 is officially obsolete and many developers are dropping support. I know that's not what some here want to hear, but it's the situation as it is. My personal opinion, denial or romantic notions aren't going to change the situation.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 09:57:10 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 07, 2020, 08:48:19 pmI also checked all of my software. Looks like I'll be able to run everything on Linux just fine.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 11:57:31 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 07, 2020, 09:22:59 pmThere is a difference between dropping support and really dropping support. Ofcourse the official statement from many developers will be that they won't support Windows 7 or stop supporting it. But the reality is that most of them still do in order not to lose existing customers. Also Windows software which is well written will run just fine on a wide variety of versions. The same goes for running software in a VM. Many software developers don't support that officially but that doesn't mean they won't help customers to run their software in a VM. In the end a sale is a sale. You want to make it look like Windows7 stops working tomorrow but that isn't the case.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 12:14:05 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 07, 2020, 06:05:28 pmAs long as Microsoft supports it (at whatever price) it is cannot be obsolete, by the definition of the word!

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 12:43:15 am
content: For a bunch of Electronics nerds the Windows 7 or bust mob should have stuck with Valves and Bumble Bee'sUnless you have a specific Hardware or mission critical Application that simply won't do W10 (more likely you are still using XP for that reason) just put your big boy pants on and upgrade already or go join the Linux crew

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 01:26:41 am
content: I dislike Windows 10, go along with Windows 8.1 as a stop gap before it becomes obsolete (or end of life or whatever term pleases the masses) and love windows 7. Still have it installed in two of my machines (one isolated from the interwebs) and still does the job for my personal purposes and do not plan to migrate anytime soon.For work, however, I was one of the leading voices to kill Windows 7 support as soon as January 2020 hit. Our dev team is relatively small and testing costs a boatload of money - when Apple decides to crap on everyone with Catalina and Linux has always been a moving target, somehting is gonna give. The $$$ speak louder.Sure, our software still runs fine in Windows 7 (I have a few hosts running it flawlessly) but, when the questions arrive from folks with weird configurations to circumvent one or another security gap or hack, I do not want to be the one on the other side of the line. So, for work, Windows 7 is obsolete.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 03:55:31 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on June 08, 2020, 01:26:41 amTesting is a different story. I have lots of testing machines - from XP to W 10, different Linuxes, Macs. Some virtual, but most real.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 11:36:03 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on June 08, 2020, 12:43:15 amI also use W10 for work... but for most electronics/lab purposes, there is little reason to upgrade a working and reliable Windows 7 installation, which, for many hobbyists, is perhaps used to work with a lot of test gear that definitely IS obsolete!In fact, you often "lose" older devices and software (printer drivers for older printers is often an issue) when Windows moves to a new version. - You can of course work around that by running Windows 7 in a virtual machine on Windows 10 - but what is the real benefit? I'm not even convinced security is a major concern... after all, if you are a hacker, are you are definitely going to focus on W10 as that is where all the rich pickings are going to be... all the low tech users, with their browsers full of juicy banking information etc.Look at it this way: have you ever come across a use case where you would need to run Windows 10 in a virtual machine if your PC is on Windows 7, in order to get a job done? Theoretically, these use cases must exist... but I haven't seen one yet.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 11:57:58 am
content: That printer must be at least 20 years old for it to not work on Windows 10. Printer support issurprisinglybackwards compatible.I got a HP 950c to work plug&play on Windows 10! USB was a novelty in those times.Quote from: SilverSolder on June 08, 2020, 11:36:03 amThat is wrong, you average stubborn home user isn't going to pay the bitcoins. The local hospital or municipality is.Quote from: SilverSolder on June 08, 2020, 11:36:03 amYes, before my work PC was migrated to Windows 10 I had to test our applications in Windows 10. Ms now offers test vm's.https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/downloads/virtual-machines/

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 12:21:59 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on June 08, 2020, 11:57:58 amI have an example: with the migration from XP to Vista, HP did re-issue drivers for the older printers... but the new drivers didn't support the same high resolution modes as the old drivers!So, device manufacturers may or may not take the opportunity for a bit of planned obsolescence of their own, just like Microsoft.I'm not really hating on Windows 10, just prioritizing it in the bigger scheme of things.In an ideal world we would all just buy a new Win 10 PC, and a new printer including a subscription for ink cartridges, and the rest of it. But the world is not ideal, we have to spend a limited budget where it gives us the biggest improvement. Does a nice new W10 box do more for you than keeping the old Win 7 one for a couple of years more, and buying a new scope today instead? To my mind, it is no contest - there is nothing I can do in Win 10 that I can't do in Win 7. So, I'll treat myself to a nice scope, spectrum analyzer, or wine, women, and song, any of which I would consider a bigger improvement to my life than upgrading my Win 7 box to a Win 10 one.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 01:15:25 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on June 08, 2020, 11:57:58 amI'm quite sure of opposite. Once I received an email stating that they hacked my computer and it included my password stolen from one hacked forum. I knew about this stolen password for a few years as it was taken from a very old stolen password database. Email did not even contain my name. It claimed they have recordings of me fapping while I watched pron, LOL. And bitcoin address to pay $700 ransom, otherwise they will release it to the public. Then I checked transactions on that bitcoin address. And you know what? Idiots transferred about $30k over two days to someone who had nothing on them at all.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 07:04:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 07, 2020, 11:57:31 pmI'm not trying to make anything look like anything. I'm noting how things are. Whether you want to go without support is up to individual users. Counting on getting any while support has officially ended is a risky move. That's a risk the home gamer with little to lose may be willing to take, but probably a bad idea when livelihoods are involved. Most companies seem to agree and have moved to Windows 10 by now. Most developers don't seem to be intentionally sabotaging Windows 7 compatibility, but I wouldn't count on getting any kind of support unless you're maybe a client with a huge amount of seats and are throwing fists of money at the developer. Supporting a product on an unsupported platform can be a huge and costly pain in the neck and few companies will be willing to do that for a few sales here and there. It's not worth the hassle and risk and any time spent is essentially wasted on a dead product line.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 07:21:44 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 08, 2020, 12:14:05 amI'm surprised this keeps coming up. People don't seem to complain about Keysight calling devices obsolete, despite parts being available. Read "End of Life" or "dead" or whatever floats your boat instead. The world at large and especially you and me cannot get support and updates, which means this version of Windows is obsolete. Having the ability to throw money at extended support because your organisation messed up migrating in time does little to alleviate this.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 03:02:07 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 08, 2020, 07:21:44 pmIt isn't complicated - Microsoft has made Win 7 obsolete for most people, but not all. But it isn't as if Windows 7 suddenly stopped working - there is really no rush to upgrade on a machine where having the latest security patches is not important. It's like keeping an old car - there is no guaranteed parts availability, there will be no product recalls or fixes if some component turns out to be a fire hazard or whatever. Doesn't stop millions of people driving older cars, right?There are even ways for ordinary punters to get hold of the updates if they really want to... but if that is important to you, you should really be updating to Win 10.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 06:55:49 pm
content: According toMerriam-Webster, obsolete can be applicable here if used in the sense of something no longer current. However, another meaning is something no longer used or useful, and that is certainly the crux of the matter - it will depend on personal opinion.A piece of software will never be out of usefulness even if its hardware no longer exists, as one could still use the ideas and implementation methods in another piece of software. I don't have hardware-absent software, but I have all sorts of obsolete (= not current) OSes here in my vault (DOS, Windows 3.11, 95, 98, etc.) that are not obsolete (!= no longer useful), as I needed to revamp an old piece of hardware and used DOS6.22 + Windows 3.11 here. So, the word can cause duplicity.A similar case could be that an analog TV set on its own has become obsolete in both senses for over the air broadcast in the places where the traditional bands were sunset. By using an external VCR, HDTV downconverter or other gadget, it just becomes obsolete (= not current) but still very useful.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 07:48:28 pm
content: It might make sense to rephrase the question... to something like, "Does it make sense to keep using Windows 7 in a specific situation".And of course, we should expect the answer to be "Yes" or "No", depending on the specific situation! :-D

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 09:21:01 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 09, 2020, 07:48:28 pmI think the question is - what do you do if you decided not to use Windows 10 because it gives Microsoft full control of your computer and you don't want to consent?Because if you consent, there's really no question, just go with Windows 10.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 10:36:07 pm
content: W7 always seemed to suffer from more bit-rot bloat over time than XP (or W10, but that may be that W10 hides it better.)It would seem to be OK on a new system, and before you knew it there would be all sorts of "stuff" running that you didn't think you had ever installed, bringing your previously-reasonable cpu/ram combination to a crawl.(or so it seemed to me. I didn't wind up using many W7 systems for long; corporate was stuck back at XP, and most of the home systems for the kids and what not seemed to go from XP to 8.)I don't have many complaints about W10, aside from its auto-update and telemetry stuff (which might have been in W7 as well.) W10 even seems to run pretty well in smallish VMs...

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 12:47:27 am
content: Quote from: westfw on June 09, 2020, 10:36:07 pmYour perception is interesting; in my experience things were terrible until 2000 came along, and XP was an improvement but I still saw myself reinstalling every two years. I skipped Vista and have several Win 7 installs that never required reinstall. Windows 8 and 10 seem to me the exact experience as 7, but the telemetry puts me off from 10.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 12:58:43 am
content: Ive found every other release since 98 have been good , xp,7 and 10 have been fine.Me, vista and 8,forget about it.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 01:48:07 am
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on June 09, 2020, 09:21:01 pmI understand there are ways to "hush up" Windows 10 so it becomes housebroken in that regard?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 08:01:04 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 10, 2020, 12:58:43 amI actually liked Vista, I was an early adopter and when it was retired I was rather sad to see it go. In terms of UI, I preferred the Vista UI over the changes that came with Windows 7.The widespread hate for Vista was not founded in rationality and primarily came up after that idiot Peter Gutman wrote a series of speculative papers about Vista DRM and how it essentially would rape your daughter and kill your family in their sleep. Most of the claims were quickly debunked as BS but of course that didn't prevent "social media" (and subsequently, many computer relaed media outlets) from spreading the crap as truth.Having said that, Vista certainly *did* have a number of issues after release, but so did every Windows version prior and after Vista. What made it worse, though, that many hardware vendors (including Nvidia and AMD!) sat on their asses instead of having their Vista drivers ready for launch, despite the very long public beta phase.But that was mostly resolved by the time SP1 came along. And in the end, Vista wasn't any worse than Windows 7, and performed similarly well.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 08:54:15 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 10, 2020, 08:01:04 amPC manufacturers and microsoft should never have released hard/software with buggy drivers, no matter who is to blame.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 07:44:27 am
content: Quote from: Karel on June 10, 2020, 08:54:15 amThat's simply impossible, you can not create software which is 100% bug free. Also, software doesn't exist in a vacuum, it runs in a logical and physical environment which, itself, is not (and cannot be) free from bugs.For a software developer, the aim is not to write bug-free code (which would be futile), the aim is to write solid, well structured code and then use software testing to identify and fix the bugs that users are most likely to see. Ideally, the majority of users don't experience any bugs during normal operation.Every Windows version had bugs when it was released (and they all do), as has every other operating system in existence. The same is true for hardware drivers. It's just the way it is.When Vista came out, it had some really annoying bugs like the progress dialog for the file copying/moving process (which used to be stuck on 'Calculating' for excessive amounts of time). In addition, some of the processes important for the GUI were running at lower priority, making Vista appear sluggish. On the upside, Vista didn't delete user data (like some of the Windows 10 versions had done), and Microsoft was addressing the problems quite quickly.However, what wasn't acceptable was when even 6 months after Vista's public release Nvidia and ATI graphics drivers would still regularly crash, or when other major manufacturers were still listing "coming soon" for their Vista drivers even after SP1 had already been released.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 08:55:12 am
content: Ok, let me phrase it in a different way.PC manufacturers and microsoft should never have released hard/software with drivers that weren't ready for release, no matter who is to blame.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 03:13:56 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on June 09, 2020, 06:55:49 pmAgain, anyone is invited to read "past End of Life" or "dead" if the term "obsolete" bothers them. They're also invited to write Keysight an angry letter.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 03:22:20 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 10, 2020, 08:01:04 amIt's remarkable how divergent the public perception of various versions of Windows and practical reality are. As soon as earned or not negative press starts to develop, it seems to tend to escalate to draconian proportions. This isn't helped by press outlets mostly repeating each other at launch. Versions other than the early versions of Windows Vista are remarkably similar to Windows 7, yet stating this leads to silly discussions more often than not. Vista is bad. Windows 7 is good. Windows 8 is bad. No discussion possible. Nuance is seemingly prohibited when it comes to discussions about the various versions of Windows and trying to apply any gets you dismissed as a Microsoft lacky. Yet if we don't actually properly establish what is good and what is bad, we don't have any hope of Microsoft actually retaining the good and disposing of the bad.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 03:59:16 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 11, 2020, 03:22:20 pmWindows 8 had the issue of forcing a touchpad GUI on desktop users. People are resistant to change even at the best of times, but that was going too far. Windows 10 obviously reined that back quite a bit, and still managed to keep some of the good ideas in the expanded START menu.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 04:27:54 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 11, 2020, 03:59:16 pmSure, mistakes were made. The amount of flak Windows 8 and Microsoft got was in no way proportional to any actual issues people could have had though. People got hung up on what literally were cosmetic changes and it was permanently discarded, just like that.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 04:47:05 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 11, 2020, 03:22:20 pmFor Microsoft it is very simple: what is good sells, what is bad doesn't. I assume you are aware any technical property of a product doesn't matter (and hasn't for a long time). The UI of Windows8 was a step too far for most users so it didn't sell which automatically makes it bad and the discussion ends right there. XP showing the UI long before it finished loading everything is another fine example of how a poor technical choice lead to make people feel the product starts faster.Even in cars you see such 'product perception' tactics; cars get tuned to give a perception of fast accelleration while technically a much faster accelleration is possible but it would make the car feel extremely dull to drive.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 04:49:19 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 11, 2020, 04:47:05 pmIt's what you get for catering to the masses.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 06:49:39 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 11, 2020, 04:47:05 pmCars are a perfect example of that. You get a "facelift" every few years, and the same underlying technology goes on, and on, with relatively slow and conservative changes where reliability is everything.And that is a good thing! - you get the best of both worlds: a refreshed "look" every few years so sales&marketing have something to talk about, and customers feel they are getting something new and fresh, while keeping proven designs and processes behind the scenes.I really think Microsoft has taken a wrong turn with "the last version of Windows, ever" - I suspect they will eventually end up going back to cosmetic/marketing driven releases, like what happens with cars!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2020, 07:23:31 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 11, 2020, 03:22:20 pmYes, but then that's "social media", a self-reinforcing echo chamber where facts don't matter and where the loudest voices shape consensus.QuoteIndeed. In the early days of computing (i.e. '70s) to early 2000's there were some really good computer-related magazines, which by now have either disappeared or morphed into the parroting publications we have today.But that's a general problem with journalism which has somewhat shifted from doing investigations to repeating what press releases and social media tell us. Being a tech journalist has never been particularly well paid but in the last 15 years or so being a journalist changed from being employed to being a gig worker, and those with expertise had little problems to find other, better paying jobs somewhere else.QuoteYes, that is unfortunately true. I found it's often better in OS related conversations to not mention Windows 8.1 (which for me was the best version of Windows yet, I like the GUI, and I love the full screen Start menu; thankfully MS has left that functionality in Windows 10).It's very difficult to overcome the established consensus of an echo chamber. And that's not just limited to operating systems.QuoteI would agree, but right now I think the only thing Microsoft really cares is its strategy to move to a SaaS model, which includes Windows. To deviate from that would require a leadership change at Microsoft (i.e. Nadella would have to go), and considering that they are raking in profits at this moment it seems to be unlikely that this happens.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2020, 07:37:33 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 12, 2020, 07:23:31 amI didn't mind 8.1 either after years of using 7 and used a dual boot of them both for a while until 10 came out.A visit to a PC tech mate and a little while using 10 there showed me I need bite the bullet and go with the times too.No regrets.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2020, 08:04:40 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 11, 2020, 03:59:16 pmYes, but that is really more a problem with people being mentally stuck (it still amazes me how many people still stick to the old Windows 95 look and feel). If we took this attitude as a guidance then we'd still be running MSDOSAlso, saying the Windows 8/8.1 GUI was just for touchscreens misses the point, because touch support was only a part of it. The idea was to give the user interactive tiles in the Start screen which would provide dynamic information without the need to actually launch a program. For this to make sense, the Start screen had to become full screen. Obviously, this didn't work out mostly due to the lack of support from other vendors (it also didn't help that 99% of the stuff in the Windows App Store was plain crap), but it was an interesting idea (which is still alive in Windows 10, although slightly altered).The same is true for the full screen Start menu. Especially when lots of programs are installed, the full screen menu gives a lot more room for the necessary short cuts than the old-style hierarchic menu structure in previous Windows versions (and finding software by typing the first few letters of the program's name works even better than under Windows 7).I found that the full screen Start menu actually works pretty well especially on large high resulution screens, and I know that I'm by far not the only person who actually liked it. Of course, for that to happen you actually need to give it a chance and not cling mentally to a menu structure which was hot shit in 1995.Of course Windows 8/8.1 wasn't perfect. Windows 8 had some UI and other issues but a lot of that was fixed with 8.1. The biggest problem however was that the new Metro style apps only worked in full screen mode which was a major limitation, and uptake from ISVs was far below what MS hoped it to be. Also, the replacement for the Control Panel was rather limited (a problem that still exists in Windows 10), but the old Control Panel was still there and alive so there wasn't really any loss over Windows 7 in this regard.There were even 3rd party tools for those that felt the urge to make Windows 8 look like Windows 95. And behind the UI Windows 8 was simply the better and much more secure OS than Windows 7, so there was was really no rationally behind the shunning Windows 8 got. But clearly, rationality never had a role in it in the first place.QuoteWhat MS did was implementing what some of the 3rd party tools did for Windows 8/8.1 with what would have been the logical next step after Windows 8.1 anyways (and in the process, making the full screen menu worse). And still, the same crowd that complained about Windows 8 still complained about Windows 10.The only difference is that, this time, both of their much beloved alternatives (XP, W7) are now dead in the water, so unless they want to get stuck with an increasingly insecure OS which won't be supported by new software or games they have to move on, and for that only Windows 10 makes any sense (Win 8.1 support end in 2023 which isn't too far off).

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2020, 10:30:08 am
content: It is interesting to say how the Windows 95 interface was "hot" at the time it was launched. This was not unanimous at all, since the entire collection of software hidden behind a minuscule start menu without search capabilities was very counterproductive. The proof is how desktops around the world were/are littered by a disorganized collection of icons that link to most used documents and applications a user deems necessary. The hierarchical organization of applications of pre-95 Windows had its appeal.The full screen start menu is better than the minuscule tree that expands at the left of the screen but that is where its strength ends, as XP and newer already had a search for the application name. Still worse than simply double-clicking on an icon at the Desktop area, but useful for the rare and not so common application.Windows 8/8.1/10 decided it was a good idea to add file and internet search to the Start menu and therefore hits can become quite confusing. Yes, I know you can disable it, but fighting with the UI is far from ideal, especially if you are trying to provide help to someone over the phone. One good move is the expanded customization of the start menu, allowing more programs and some hierarchy for the icons pushed there. Even still, it is a few extra clicks to get there when compared to a single click on the desktop.All this to say that the old methods die hard and we still see pre-95 elements still being used at large around the user base. No amount of shaming or evolutionary UI modifications will mean a complete departure from the past.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2020, 11:22:22 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on June 12, 2020, 10:30:08 amTo be fair, "hot" was meant as a somewhat sarcastic expression for something which at that time was one of the latest UX features in WindowsI agree that the Win95 Start menu wasn't particularly great (I'd say it was 'workable'), which makes it even more mind boggling that so many people hang on to it for so long.QuoteWell, to be fair most of the time the desktop shortcuts are there because so many software installers insist to place another icon for the software they are deploying on the desktop, often without asking the user.Developers ignoring Microsoft Style Guides have been a bane of Windows since forever.QuoteDisabling web search in Windows 8.1 (Windows 8 did not have web search) was a simple checkbox but in Windows 10 Microsoft has certainly made this unnecessary complicated.But don't underestimate the power of the search function. Because (to my surprise!) I found that I was quicker just typing the first few letters of a program than moving my hand to the mouse then the mouse cursor to the icon, and then clicking on it. It's the same reason every sane program offers keyboard shortcuts, because it allows you to do your task without having to take the hand off the keyboard.Also including local files in the search was very useful, because as long as I can remember a part of the document name I can quickly open any document anywhere on my drive without having to dig through the directory structure in Explorer or the application.Same for settings.QuoteYes, but this is also often the reason we can't have nice things. And you'd have to be pretty stuck in your ways to want to even think about making Windows 7 to resemble the Win95 desktop. I understand change is difficult insisting that every new Windows version after Win 95 or 98 looks and feels like this has made the change that will come eventually much more difficult and painful than if they just had followed the changes that came with every Windows version in between.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2020, 01:52:47 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 12, 2020, 11:22:22 amI don't see it that way. I use PCs for work - I usually have one or few applications open and I work with them for a long time. I work with software, not with the OS. All I want from the OS, is not to get on the way. I evaluate the progress of OS not in the interface, but mostly in technical details: 95 didn't support Unicode but NT did, NT didn't support USB but 2k did, W7 doesn't support SSD but W10 does.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2020, 03:27:00 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 12, 2020, 11:22:22 amAt the time OS/2 had, in my opinion, a great balance between the Windows 3.x desktop organization and the Applications bar located at the bottom of the screen - something that OSX borrowed many years later (but probably Apple claims to have invented it). Even at that time several third party applications re-configured the Windows UI to add these elements (I don't recall their names, though).Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 12, 2020, 11:22:22 amI used to believe that as well but, in my experience working with people from various companies, the amount of word docs, excel spreadsheets and powerpoint presentations plastered in the desktop of countless hosts indicate that the practicality of having these at your fingertips beats any hierarchy by a mile.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 12, 2020, 11:22:22 amYep. That was one of the huge contributors to the bad press that Vista got when MS tried to enforce proper user/superuser separation from third party applications.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 12, 2020, 11:22:22 amNo worries; I don't.However, the added clutter that Windows 10 adds to results confuses inexperienced people (the vast majority of users). I know this by my own experience.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 12, 2020, 11:22:22 amWe sure can have "nice things", but it doesn't mean we like them.Case in point: the software houses are pushing their UI newfangled trends at every new release - the latest being the ethereal visual appeal with light grey on white or the complete flattening of icons, images and buttons.I have no idea where the Win95 desktop idea came from, though.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2020, 09:30:48 am
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on June 12, 2020, 01:52:47 pmThat doesn't make a lot of sense.You say you don't work with the OS, you work with programs (and a limited number at that). Fair enough.So if all you do is launch the programs, what's the point of making a newer version to look like Windows 95 then? Because if you "work with software, not with the OS" then it shouldn't really matter what the Start menu looks like or what color the icons have. So if the OS is so irrelevant as you say, why even bother? Even more so that later Windows versions didn't make it any harder to launch programs, nor made they any changes to how programs are launched.As to 'evaluating an OS not on the UI but on technical details', you miss that UI changes are as much technical as everything else. Most of the UI changes aren't just plugged out of thin air but have a lot of actual human factors and ergonomics research behind it. Also, increasing computing resources also enabled other functionality which was out of the question back then (like adaptive search).Ignoring the UI means you are ignoring the one part that makes for the interface between user and machine.Reverting a newer Windows version to the clunky old Win95 interface (which was mostly defined by the limitations in technology of that time) is no different than if you had disabled W2k's built-in USB support in W2k or disabled all CPU cores except one when moving from a single core to a multi-core PC. No-one would ever suggest to do something like that, but for some reason this very suggestion is made to revert to a lackluster interface of a bygone era for the sake of 'just because'.It doesn't really make a lot of sense.QuoteWindows 7 does support SSDs (it's actually the first Windows version to do so), it has TRIM support and through updates even supports NVMe drives. What it lacks are standard NVMe drivers that come with the OS (which need to be installed manually), and NVMe firmware updates often don't work (it's fine for SATA and SAS drives).The next step up was Windows 8/8.1 which has full NVMe support, so if you ignore the UI as you said then the next step would have been Windows 8/8.1 not 10.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2020, 10:03:50 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on June 12, 2020, 03:27:00 pmThe object-oriented approach IBM used for the OS/2 WPS was certainly interesting but the concept was so far off that many users struggled with it.The application bar (called LaunchPad) was only introduced later with Warp 3.0 and wasn't exactly a novel concept (CDE, the back then default UNIX desktop, has had it for longer, I believe AmigaOS had that, too, and then there was IndigoMagic from SGI which had that as well).QuoteMac OS X didn't borrow from OS/2. Most of the Mac OS X UI elements were derived from NextStep/OpenStep, a UNIX variant created by NeXT for its series of M68k based workstation. NeXT was founded by Steve Jobs after he was ousted from Apple in the '80s.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 12, 2020, 11:22:22 amI used to believe that as well but, in my experience working with people from various companies, the amount of word docs, excel spreadsheets and powerpoint presentations plastered in the desktop of countless hosts indicate that the practicality of having these at your fingertips beats any hierarchy by a mile. You are right, corporate users are the worst when it comes to littering the desktop and local and networked folders with copies of the same spreadsheet at various stages. Often even the authors don't know which of the copies is the current one.Sharepoint helps a lot to avoid that, but it's a rather fragile software and difficult to setup properly.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 12, 2020, 11:22:22 amYep. That was one of the huge contributors to the bad press that Vista got when MS tried to enforce proper user/superuser separation from third party applications. [/quoteIndeed. It's still a problem, i.e. some installers want to install into AppData which is just for settingsQuoteI agree, I don't like many of the UI changes in Windows 10 either. The full screen mode of the start menu is actually worse than on Windows 8/8.1, and has the nasty habit of occasionally shifting icons so they partially cover others. I also miss transparency.Luckily, most of our work systems run on Linux (Red Hat/SUSE) but considering that GNOME is horrible on a completely different scale than the Windows UIs I'm glad that we use Red Hat mostly on servers only (RH uses GNOME). Thankfully, SUSE supports KDE which is a lot better (even though it's also far from perfect).QuoteYeah, I'm not a fan of the flat monochrome designs we get these days. But luckily sometimes it's just that it's butt ugly while the actual functionality behind is quite good.QuoteI think it started as something called "System" which was supposed to resemble the same functionality as the Apple menu on classic Mac OS, and later morphed into a program launcher.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2020, 03:21:42 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 13, 2020, 09:30:48 amIf Microsoft made Windows with old Win95 interface which supports all the modern hardware, but doesn't run crap in the background and doesn't give full control over my computer to Microsoft, I would take it any time.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2020, 03:28:41 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 12, 2020, 08:04:40 amI can absolutely see that a full screen start menu has its uses in certain situations. It should just have been made optional, and everyone would have been happy!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2020, 04:56:12 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 13, 2020, 03:28:41 pmNot just optimal. Also intuitive to use. When I installed WIndows 8 for the first (and last time) I hit the delete button after amoment. In most cases new doesn't mean improved. The real problem is that Windows needs to cater to too many different kinds of operators. Novices which need to be taken by the hand and power users which just need to get a job done. The Windows8 UI catered too much to the first kind of users and too little to the latter.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2020, 05:30:49 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 13, 2020, 04:56:12 pmBecause there are much more users of the first kind.There's a perfect solution to this. You make OS smaller and let it handle only necessities. Then, for the users of the first kind, you can install a shell which hides everything, has nice pictures and pleasant views. Or, for the users of the second kind, you can install powerful tools which help with advanced OS configuration. Microsoft will never do this, because they want to control everything and spy on your habits. But you can do it with Linux.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2020, 10:57:32 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 13, 2020, 10:03:50 amIt was tongue in cheek, but NeXT bar was identical to what was used up to Mac OS 9 - the OSX and the OS/2 application bars are very similar. Sure, they may have had different origins (I was a heavy user of Solaris and its CDE and loved it), but regardless of who came first, it is the best balance IMO.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 10:42:45 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 13, 2020, 03:28:41 pmWell, in a way it was optional (there were a number of 3rd party solutions for the classic start menu, most of them free) so if having a full screen start menu was really such a problem then this could have been solved easily.And yet, lots people still shunned it (many even without trying), clinging to XP and Windows 7, despite the better security and many other improvements Windows 8/8.1 had under the hood. Mostly with little rationality behind it (many also seem to have no qualms using Linux and the UX clusterfuck that is GNOME, or the latter's full screen application drawer).But yes, MS itself didn't offer a classic start menu as an option. Which made sense. Apple radically cuts off legacy stuff all the time and they are now one of the most successful IT companies on Earth. Sometimes you have to make a cut as otherwise the legacy cruft will eat up your ressources and stiffle progress.Quote from: NorthGuy on June 13, 2020, 05:30:49 pmWell, a lot of the problems with Linux on the desktop (and the reason why the 'Year of the Linux desktop' hasn't been happening despite proclaiming it every year since at least 2005) come from the detached nature of kernel (the actual Linux) and the other bits which make up a distribution.It's of course also it's strenghts in other applications.But yes, Windows has now become a vehicle to gather user data and serve as a SaaS vehicle.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 09:14:08 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 15, 2020, 10:42:45 amThe main problem is that the menu in Windows 10 caters too much to noob users and too little to power users. When I open the menu I want a short list of applications. Not every friggin' program that lives on the PC. Let alone browse every file (I have over 30 million files on my PC). On XP and Win7 I delete the programs I don't need from the start menu to keep it short and to the point. The menu on Windows 7 is already a step back compared to XP because it keeps changing content based on some algorithm which removes the very program I want to use next from the short list. Which then requires me to click a second time to open the actual menu. In which world is that an improvement? At least Gnome can be configured to behave as a useful shell.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 09:53:11 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 15, 2020, 09:14:08 pmhttps://youtu.be/K8r3tHUK6v4

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 10:43:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 15, 2020, 09:14:08 pmIn Windows 7 (and 10), "Pin to Task Bar" and "Pin to Start Menu" in the right click context menu are your friends!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 08:04:46 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 15, 2020, 09:14:08 pmI was about to write that you can easily add programs to the Win 10 Start menu's Tile area but it appears SilverSoldier beat me to it. Also, to change the Windows 7 Start menu to stop putting the last used programs in the main list is a simple setting. So this is actually a case user error, not an inherent problem with Windows 7 or 10Frankly, if all you want to have is "a short list of applications" then why don't you just stick your programs to the taskbar, something that has been working fine since Windows 95 and every subsequent Windows version right to Windows 10.As to Windows 10 not "catering to power users", I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Because so-called "power users" are just a minority group, and one with very rigid, slanted views. They flat out refuse to learn or even try out new or different methods, and get upset when a new OS version can't be changed to look and behave exactly like whatever was common two decades ago, no matter how retarded that may have been. They tend to do things in an ineffective, convoluted or flat out wrong way, often simply because they don't know any better. They expect to be able to change everything plus the kitchen sink on a OS, for the sole reason of "just because". And they release a massive stream of whine to social media and every corner of the internet when they feel their wishes and niche requirements aren't satisfied to nothing less than perfection."Power users" (which are not limited to Windows, you can find them on Linux and Mac as well) are far worse than the lazy user types who don't want to deal with change. Because at least the latter can be helped.Catering to "power users" would be futile, unless you're part of the computer-related media industry, for which this group is often the target audience thanks to their high engagement levels.Microsoft does well to largely ignore this group and cater to the (much larger segment) of consumers as well as corporate and professional users. Because, let's face it, the majority of users have had no problems dealing with the changes across the varying Windows versions over the years.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 09:36:51 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 16, 2020, 08:04:46 amI agree with your post, but disagree with you there. The "power users" are not all created equal.To me, one of the worst aspects of Windows 10 is the half ported Control Panel to the new Settings tool, which tends to be used quite often by "power users". Sure, the old Control Panel is still there, but there's always that lingering feeling it will vanish some day when work on the new thing is far from complete.If that happens one could do everything from the command line, but a large differentiator of Windows when compared to Linux is the ability to setup the system from the GUI. I deal a lot with proxies (among other things) in corporate networks and setting up something on *nix is a PITA.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 01:35:16 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 16, 2020, 08:04:46 amThat's exactly what I do. I also place shortcuts to most of my programs onto the desktop. To reduce clutter I create folders with shortcuts and put a shortcut on the desktop which opens such folder. I also have custom made file system navigator which does the things which are missing in Windows GUI, such as creating symbolic links, and also can go into zips, tars, remote servers through SSH and Android phones through ADB. It has command line and ability to launch programs. Between all that, I use start menu very rarely. This all works well for me and doesn't depend on the OS, so it'll be easier for me to migrate to Linux.Now when you know how my desktop is organized, perhaps you can give me some advise on how I could have improved my work if I decided to move to Windows 10 SaaS?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 09:27:08 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 16, 2020, 08:04:46 amWell... there is only so much room on the taskbar. Usually I limit sticking programs to the taskbar to program I use most like the explorer (and in the past a browser). The rest of the software would easily fill up the rest leaving no space for open programs (usually between 20 and 30 on Linux). Same for desktop icons; only a few which allow to start a program quickly but no clutter. I didn't know about the pinning feature of Windows7 which seems useful indeed but then again I have started using Windows7 since last year because a new CAD package and Office2010 are no longer supported under XP. But in the end I'm not using Windows a lot so the return diminish quickly if I need to tweak and tune Windows a lot to work efficient.Also your view on power users is kind of weird. Power users are the ones who want to get their work done efficiently. If you have ever been active in user interface development you'd know that a user interface which does as much as possible with the least interaction is completely different compared to a user interface which caters to people who have little idea about what they are doing and need to be guided step-by-step. If you translate that to Windows then I notice a trend where I need to do more mouse-clicks to get a job done and more clutter on the screen. This starts from the changes in the explorer between XP and Windows7 but is also visible in things like the new (huge) 'start' menu in Windows10 and for example the new way the control panel is organised since Windows7. The idea behind dividing the control panel in categories is a reasonable one. However there is no logic at all in how things ended up being grouped and how to get to a certain setting. It is completely non-intuitive. As usual part of the problem with Microsoft is messing up an idea which was good in the beginning and ended up to be a horror show.I don't want to start a Linux versus Windows debate but look at how clean the system settings dialog from Gnome is:

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 10:46:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 16, 2020, 09:27:08 pmI've resigned myself to just hitting the Windows key (on the keyboard!) and then start typing the name of what I want. That is actually pretty efficient, even on Win 10, and has the advantage that it works on any PC, even one you haven't had a chance to optimize the desktop for. This "trick", in combination with pinning the most commonly used stuff to the taskbar and start menu, is efficient enough for Australia!

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 10:49:08 pm
content: Windows 10 Has more bugs than my Garden.Try Linux Mint 19 its free and works great and it has a look of windows it plugs and plays everything .If your a gamer then it will be hard setting up MS games but it has a Store with thousands of APPs.I moved over to Linux years ago . No antivirus . And all that reg defrag rubbish Gone . It just works .Also big plus if your Mother board dies no problem just take your HDD and stick it into another computer and itwill fire up if nothing has happened .Ubuntu is also good I prefer Mint . also it can run from a USB stick live so you can try it before doing a full install.Plus there is open Office as well also included it far faster than Windows 10 .Its like having a new computer it works faster even on a 10 year old machine .The windows Keys do the same in Linux as well .Move to the other side Bill only knows how to keep sending reminders .. In the middle of doing somethingYour computer will reboot . Press F11 keyboard missing .. and the blue screen of death ..You will loose a lot by moving to Linux ... Works every time

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 11:08:46 pm
content: The problem with the Linux approach is that proprietary software companies do not want to deal with the variants. At all.You can somewhat see this with Windows software also, when a new version of Windows comes out. Typically, the software is not updated to work with the new version of Windows, and you have to upgrade or buy a new copy of the software instead. Even then, I bet the MS devs that interface with outside software development companies get a lot of flak whenever a new version of Windows comes out, from other software companies...What's good for one type of user, is bad for another type of user.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 01:00:07 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 16, 2020, 09:27:08 pm100% agree with your post, including this bit with the following exception: these settings surely look clean but are quite useless for lots of minimally advanced configurations (proxy, file sharing, installing new programs, configuring services, etc.). Sure, many of these limitations are due to the way Linux is put together, therefore they look clean simply because they are not a comprehensive system settings as we have in Windows' Control Panel.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 08:18:39 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on June 16, 2020, 09:36:51 amI'm sorry but in my experience they are. They all share the almost universal belief that because they managed to build a PC from standard components and install Windows or Linux on it they are now "experts", and they conclude that this assumed "expert" status gives them superior authority to decide how software has to look or behave."Power users" are mostly an entity because they are a valuable target audience for certain industries.I see them as a stark contrast to "professional users", a group which uses a computer as tool and therefore isn't very interested in what the desktop looks like as long as it's workable.QuoteYou are right, the new Settings tool is a poor replacement of the Control Panel. Unfortunately under Nadella Microsoft no longer keeps legacy stuff around until the replacement is actually working, amongst other changes which really only benefit Microsoft but not the user.QuoteI hear you. I ended up creating scripts for some of the repetitive stuff but this doesn't work for everything. Unfortunately RHEL doesn't come with any good admin tools, but thankfully we now use more and more SUSE where I can just use YAST to do most of the things I need via a GUI.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 08:19:09 am
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on June 16, 2020, 10:49:08 pmComplete and utter BULLPLOP ! Linux has more version issues and less compatibility with everyday software.Take the Linux vs Winboze BS elsewhere this thread has enough BS already.

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 08:43:11 am
content: I went from win7 which I liked, to win 8/8.1 which I didn't like the look off, and I don't like the app slang, I liked executable's , and programs's but the marketer's had to dumb it down.Then Win 10 came along and again I didn't like some of the trivial asethics, and was too lazy to change them any amount, and I HATED the monitor/spyware, and bloatware and oh that's right the huge amount of RAM it takes to run the bloat and spyware.So I went to Linux Mint Cinnamon, and it was a pretty easy transition, but I don't really know how/why anything works yet. But I will in time.But it's a hassle so far since not all games/programs run right away on Linux, but for me I want to learn more software/programming, so that's also why I want to jump to Linux.Using the terminal is cool, like in The Matrix, but I programmed games as a kid on C64, so I guess it's not the tech that puts someone in the Matrix, and I don't know where that is yet anyways, LOL.I don't like how my mouse and 155Hz monitor feel with LinuxMC so far. I should try my old IPS 60Hz monitor, since I barely play games anymore.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 08:49:50 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 17, 2020, 08:18:39 amThen replace 'power users' by 'professional users' in my previous posts if you want to use different semantics. In my dictionary power users are professional users for which the OS is a tool to get work done and don't want the OS to interfere too much with getting their work done. What you define as power users are people who (indeed) over estimate their abilities but that was clearly not the kind of user I am/was writing about.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 09:46:20 am
content: The last Win10 update has reset all my privacy settings back to collect-everything-and send-it-to-MS default.Fortunately there are several tools for managing those settings.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 10:37:03 am
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on June 16, 2020, 10:49:08 pmYes, it has.QuoteI hate to break it to you but viruses are no longer a thing (and have been so for many years). These days we have malware which gains access through phising, social engineering or security holes of which there are many in Linux as well. Which is why it's important to keep your software updated.QuoteThat "ref defrag rubbish" also exists on Linux (ext3/4 are highly susceptible to fragmentation; XFS and BTRFS are, too, although both to a lesser level than ext; even ZFS does fragment to some extend, and there is no defragmentation tool). And defragmentation requires, like in the good old Windows days, to run a defragmentation utility.QuoteSo what? I moved my original Windows 8.1 installation across four different computers and between legacy BIOS and UEFI, with little effort and preparation. All with storage that went from SATA hard drives over SATA SSDs to various hardware RAID controllers to PCIe NVMe storage.QuoteYeah, no, thanks, but I rather stick with the descendants of enterprise-grade Linux from Red Hat and SUSE which are more reliable and have better support than any of the 'buntu's (known as 'the Windows amongst Linuxes' for a reason), Mint, Manjaro or whatever the latest faff is that excites hobbyists.Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 16, 2020, 11:08:46 pmYes, but like in Windows (a OS with at least pre-Windows 10 long life cycles and a wide range of commercial support) they support the big Linux vendors Red Hat and SUSE (both which have long life cycles and a wide range of support options).They don't support the ever-changing world of gimmick distributions with short shelf lives or rolling release distro's which have no real baselines they can support. Which is understandable.QuoteWell, it certainly depends on what software that is. Most of the programs we use at work or the ones I use personally have mostly worked fine under new Windows releases up to Windows 8.1 (with Windows 10 there are new road blocks so I won't expect that this will work in the future).As long as the software developer followed the APIs and Style Guides there should be no problem why a new Windows version would not run an existing program.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 10:46:35 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 17, 2020, 08:49:50 amBut what you describe are "power users" not "professional users". Because the latter rarely complain about things like the Windows 8 Start menu.QuoteThat may have been the case when the term "power user" was coined originally but thanks to a certain part of the user base that meaning has shifted dramatically (mostly because the term was stupid anyways as "power users" only implies that the user itself is more powerful, not that his computer is particularly powerful or what he does is particularly important; I guess which is why that group likes that term so much).

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 11:00:09 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 16, 2020, 09:27:08 pmSince Vista, the taskbar icon also becomes the open program icon, so you don't really need space for open programs.My task bars have some 30-40 programs and tools attached to it.QuoteWell, it's a single checkbox, so it'd have taken 30 sec or so to fix.QuoteGreat! Now show me where in there I can setup network and file sharing? Add or remove Linux features and programs? List and change hardware settings? Can manage snapshots? Setup remote connections and properties? Setup Credentials? Manage USB devices? Manage internet settings? Drive encryption? Speech recognition? Taskbar properties? Manage security software (i.e. clamav)?It's easy to provide a handful of icons when the functionality is severely limited. A lot of the stuff that Windows CP covers simply can't be done in the GNOME Settings panel (heck, a lot of GNOME settings can't be changed in the GNOME Settings panel.For Linux, a much better comparison to the Windows Control Panel would be SUSE's YAST:Note the scroll bar on the right which shows that there are more icons than currently visible.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 11:27:01 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 17, 2020, 08:18:39 amEconomists have a word for this, it is called the "IKEA effect" - when people build something (including assembling flat pack furniture bought from IKEA) they often end up loving the final result far more than if they had bought it as an assembled unit!

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 11:48:13 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 17, 2020, 11:00:09 amQuestion from Linux noob, if I'm using Ubuntu, how can get that ?Or should I dump Ubuntu and use OpenSuse ? Again, noob question.I'm sold to be honest.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 12:31:32 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 17, 2020, 11:00:09 amI know. I've tried it but I don't like it. I prefer to switch to a specific window which has a specific file open with 1 click.QuoteThe Gnome panel is just an example of a clean interface. Suse seems to have improved the idea much further and still offers an intuitive interface.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 01:17:09 pm
content: I'm pretty sure there is no way to completely shutdown all telemetry, no matter what those tools tell you. I think you have to disable its network connection to do that.Quote from: madires on June 17, 2020, 09:46:20 am

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 01:32:54 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on June 16, 2020, 01:35:16 pmNo answer?Tons of bloat about Windows 10 greatness, but nothing to say when it comes to practical application of this greatness?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 01:33:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 17, 2020, 12:31:32 pmDo you use the Alt-Tab keyboard shortcut to switch between apps? I couldn't live without it... no more hunting for icons on a crowded task bar.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 01:52:14 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on June 17, 2020, 01:17:09 pmA wise advice! The Win10 enterprise edition gives you nearly full control over privacy settings (via group policies), all other editions are rather limited and require the privacy tools to tame the settings. But we might see some changes in the future. MS violates EU's GDPR by Win10 and several data/privacy protection agencies are fighting with MS over this.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 02:01:01 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 17, 2020, 01:52:14 pmThe EU seems to be one of the last standing bastions of civilisation at the moment... It is not so good for us when the big corporations have their way 100% with weak governments.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 09:36:56 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 17, 2020, 08:18:39 amSelf assessment is not part of a reliable categorization system.Regardless of what Wikipedia says, folks that build a system are paving the way to a better understanding about the beast they have in front of them, but the meaning of the word "power" is way too broad - that is the reason of my statement.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 17, 2020, 08:18:39 amI guess definitions are also a bit complicated on this one: "professional users" can refer to any user that needs a computer to perform its profession or labor. The knowledge among this crowd is way too broad.All this to reach the conclusion that the categories are not set in stone but wide open to interpretation.Quote from: SilverSolder on June 17, 2020, 01:33:29 pmOne example of good functionality are the keyboard shortcuts of the Windows OS. It simply works and does not need to change and cater to the new fad.Now, if you move between localized versions of Microsoft Office... That is a true

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 11:13:09 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 17, 2020, 01:33:29 pmI used to but far less since I have a wide monitor which can still show the icon and enough text to identify the window. Using the mouse is just one quick click while alt-tab usually needs multiple key-presses to get to the right window.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 12:16:41 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 17, 2020, 10:37:03 amUnfortunately that is not true. There is no Adobe Photoshop for Linux, for example.The fact that there is no "single" Linux means that any software developers wishing to develop something for Linux will encounter big resistance from the marketing and management, because they do not understand how they can make a decent profit in that type of an environment.Similarly, when a new version of Windows comes out, a surprising number of application developers drop support for the older versions, or rely on the existing codebase to work on the new version, because they don't know how to effectively focus on more than one target.This is not a technical problem; I've elsewhere talked about how one can do this without wasting resources, with various different approaches. This is a business model problem. The marketing and management do not see how to use the situation to their advantage, and will instead prefer a single focus. (The Linux situation isn't just the UI either; it runs on many more hardware architectures than just x86-64.)It is interesting to note how slowly the automobile manufacture has gone from model-specific hardware to modular components used in a number of makes and models. In the software land, the quite similarUnix philosophyhas been basically lost and forgotten, with most software implemented in and for a specific framework instead – like components manufactured for a specific make and model of an automobile.In a very real way, the software "market" has already segregated into almost completely separate submarkets, with very little crossing between markets. You have server side software (both free/open source and proprietary – consider this forum as an example), desktop application software, desktop games, console games, mobile games, mobile apps, and so on.In some ways that kind of diversity is good and important. We users know we don't want one unified interface that works in a mediocre manner on all devices, we want interfaces that work well on each kind of device we have. I don't think touch-based interfaces are going to "crack through" to PC and console gaming, for example; or that a mobile game that requires an external keyboard, joystick, or joypad to play well, could become the norm.For software businesses, that kind of a market subdivision is hard, especially because some submarkets are essentially monopolies, and marketing deals are enormously complicated; it makes a developer completely dependent on their vendor. Marketing deals can be the difference between profit and loss, and are commonly used to rope the developer in – a small company developing products for two competeing vendors will find they cannot get marketing deals at all, or have to pay the "list price", making the entire business model unfeasible. Even if MS of today is not the MS of nineties that abused its monopoly position to crush its competition, that same kind of actions are now being taken by Apple and Google in their mobile stores.. the players change, the business doesn't.Personally, I am seeing the big companies becoming more and more rigid, less and less able to adjust to changing market demands, so they are trying like hell to become big enough so they can control the market instead of compete in it on the merits of their products.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 12:40:09 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 18, 2020, 12:16:41 amAbsolutely true, although in my spwcific scenario is simply due to the ever shrinking teams of developers (which could be indirectly tied to management but SW is not our core business).Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 18, 2020, 12:16:41 amI think that part of it is due to the fact very few companies (at least in my area) develop anything from the ground up, tying together legacy closed and modern open source code, thus becoming a collection of different philosophies and methodologies.Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 18, 2020, 12:16:41 amIn my case, shrinking teams and the constant trend to reduce or give away software is eroding this flexibility.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 12:44:47 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on June 18, 2020, 12:40:09 amYes, that makes sense.I forgot to add the caveat that I personally stepped out of the software development business 15 years ago, and that my opinion is only based on observations and discussions with other developers (including helping others make money off writing Linux software); so, I could very well be wrong, too.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 02:25:04 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 18, 2020, 12:16:41 amNot only big enough to control the market, but big enough to buy off political representatives... it is not a healthy environment that fosters creativity at all.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 02:26:31 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 17, 2020, 11:13:09 pmAh, I see. My workflow is usually between 2-4 apps at a time, so alt-tab works well for me... and I don't even have to reach for the mouse!

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 02:55:54 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 18, 2020, 02:26:31 amWhen I switched to 2 monitors, my habits have changed dramatically and I hardly ever use Alt-Tab now. It is much easier to work when you have more space. My next PC will have 3 monitors!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 04:38:59 am
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on June 18, 2020, 02:55:54 amI have 3 monitors already, LOL! - to be honest, I'd prefer one very large and wide monitor, with the combined resolution... Curved would work, for a computer monitor.Alt-Tab still controls which app is getting the attention, even if you can see them on the screen. (I'm a keyboard guy, until I have to use the mouse).

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 05:46:18 pm
content: There is a service that I came across that is present on Windows 10 Enterprise which is one of many that I removed called "DaShost" "Dashost.exe" and the dlls.Device associations framework.Many months ago I was trying to find out how SVChost.exe was making lots of connections to Microsoft, Azure and Akaimi all the time and I was disabling the services one by one to find out what it was.When I close Dashost.exe, then SVCHost stops making the connections but it restarts and continues.Now when I removed it it behaves, the only time it makes connections is when I do stuff and when I open Windows Update which also seems to respect the settings I set in group policy editor.There was another GUI file/component that I removed and I can't remeber the name but it appeared after last update "You need updates" click here to install.QuoteEither it does more than that or some other service that is making the constant connections depends on it to start.

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 07:08:11 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on June 19, 2020, 05:46:18 pmIs dasHost.exe a virus? No, it is not. The true dasHost.exe file is a safe Microsoft Windows system process, called "Device Association Framework Provider Host". However, writers of malware programs, such as viruses, worms, and Trojans deliberately give their processes the same file name to escape detection. Viruses with the same file name are for instance Trojan.Gen or Packed.Vmpbad!gen38 (detected by Symantec), and Trojan-Ransom.Win32.Blocker.hziu or HEUR:Trojan.Win32.Generic (detected by Kaspersky).

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 07:18:16 pm
content: I did remember checking that out and it was signed.It came with the trial edition that I got from Microsoft but the problems started after some security updates latest being in February but it didn't do it before some update. I did disc image where it didn't do it but for some reason when that was on it would constantly make connections. I was wondering myself whether my copy was tampered. but when I did a lookup it was from Microsoft and their partners.

author: c64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 02:32:35 am
content: Quote from: rdl on June 17, 2020, 01:17:09 pmI remember reading somewhere it can be done by disabling / removing some services via registry.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 11:29:56 am
content: If you want to disable telemetry completely you need the enterprise edition.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 12:30:14 pm
content: From the European Data Protection Supervisor (EDPS):Outcome of own-initiative investigation into EU institutions’ use of Microsoft products and services:https://edps.europa.eu/sites/edp/files/publication/20-07-02_edps_euis_microsoft_contract_investigation_en.html

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2020, 09:13:41 pm
content: I sell pcb design software and in 2020 i still get customers emailing me with questions who are still using XP !

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2020, 04:28:43 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 15, 2020, 09:13:41 pmI'll probably still be using it in 2030 if I haven't moved over to Linux completely.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2020, 09:15:22 am
content: Latest annoyance: The last monthly update installed the new Edge browser on older windows versions down to Win7. And for de-installing you need do it in the shell.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2020, 09:47:37 am
content: Using LTSC, no stinking Edge here. And Windows Update run freely untouched.PS : Just received huge multi giga bytes update yesterday, KB4558998, and still no Edge installed.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2020, 01:37:27 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on July 16, 2020, 09:47:37 amDid not know about LTSC, I will try it out soon.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2020, 07:33:58 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on July 16, 2020, 09:47:37 amLTSC unfortunately isn't the golden ticket either. There's more than a few distinct drawbacks.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2020, 08:39:33 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on July 16, 2020, 09:47:37 amUh, on that note... It seems MS is killing that as wellhttps://gizmodo.com/microsoft-kills-one-of-its-best-windows-10-update-looph-1844180993

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 05:48:59 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 16, 2020, 07:33:58 pmSuch as ? Mind give example ?Windows 10 basically is shit, but LTSC is less shittieramong them.What I like is LTSC Windows Update only install basic necessary stuffs, not all those junks, no pesky Store, no bling2 app/gaming distracting spam, no Edge, no Cortana, all stripped down to earth basic stuff by MS it self.If you have spare drive/ssd, try the LSTC evaluation for 30 days see for yourself, for me its like night and day, remember to choose LTSC, not Enterprise.->https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/evaluate-windows-10-enterprise

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 06:50:54 am
content: From what I've read, the -rearm command still works with Windows 10 so you can extend the 30 days trial for another 90. With Windows 7 you can reset the rearm count as many times as you want. I wonder if that still works with Windows 10.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 07:07:13 am
content: Quote from: madires on July 03, 2020, 11:29:56 amDo not naively trust that.As long you use W10, face the reality there must be some sort of telemetry, or go complete "air gap" offlined, no internet connection what so ever, but these is hard to live with that especially PC for personal/general use.Hack, tweak or selective choosing Windows Update ? Nope, how do you know they're not "smuggling in" the telemetry stuff in one of the urgent critical bug fix that happened you choose to apply ? Also, personally I grew old and bored for tweaking OS, just want it to run smoothly without any worry in the future that I may have problem with the tweak I did that I have forgotten, yes, it happened to me since DOS era.Want complete control ? Switch side.Currently I am in transitional period, dual boots at 2 drives, I have NVME loaded Windows 10 LTSC and other SSD boot drive with Linux Mint, currently I try spend more time in Linux, almost 40% in Linux vs 60% in Windows 10. Still trying to increase the Linux portion.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 07:10:44 am
content: Quote from: rdl on July 17, 2020, 06:50:54 amMy LTSC is legit one, did CPU upgrade, GPU and even freshly re-install the OS, as long your MS account is registered with the current license "AND" you don't change mobo, the license still stick and valid.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 07:30:57 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on July 17, 2020, 07:10:44 amI wonder if the LTSC I see on Ebay for 18€ will do the trick...

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 07:38:53 am
content: Quote from: Zucca on July 17, 2020, 07:30:57 amLOL, looking at the price, I have doubt.The most important is the source, the OS ISO must be sourced directly from Microsoft.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 07:55:22 am
content: Getting the ISO for LTSC from Microsoft doesn't seem to be a problem. Getting a license for it does. I figured I'd have to run it without activating it.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 08:38:39 am
content: Quote from: rdl on July 17, 2020, 07:55:22 amYep, and do not run any crack or patch , as who knows they implanted nasty malware or "timed" ransomware, or turning your pc into one of their crypto currency miner.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 08:53:11 am
content: If the "30 day trial" is implemented the same as Windows 7, no cracks will be needed. I've been running Windows 7 on one computer for 8 years and it's never been activated, just keep rearming/resetting the trial period.If that doesn't work with the LTSC/Enterprise versions of Win 10 I'll just use the regular Pro version and never activate it. I doubt Microsoft will complain. I don't plan to let it connect to the internet very often, if at all.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 08:13:05 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on July 17, 2020, 07:38:53 amIs the OS ISO for LTSC different from the other W10 ones? So I can not download it from M$ website?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 08:34:08 am
content: Quote from: Zucca on July 20, 2020, 08:13:05 amAssuming you are pursuing legit path, just download the evaluation and register/activate it.Yes, the ISO is different from say retail or common home/desktop W10 version.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 08:37:37 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 20, 2020, 08:19:06 amNope, my legit LTSC ISO is just exactly like ordinary W10 ISO image. Can be bootable if burnt as DVD (el-torrito) or transferred to USB thumb drive.No hack/tweak/edit anything at all at the ISO image to install it, exactly like personal version.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 08:54:47 am
content: Just fyi, attached below my LTSC at the About and Activation screenshots.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 12:55:19 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on July 20, 2020, 08:34:08 amOkay Ebay is fishy for little money. What abouthereat Newegg?Wondering if I can buy it and use it where I want in the world....

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 01:04:07 pm
content: Their Windows 2019 Server license looks more attractive!

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 01:26:36 pm
content: Those are just CALs (Client Access Licenses).

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 02:25:35 pm
content: Quote from: Zucca on July 20, 2020, 12:55:19 pmDunno, bought mine from local authorized MS distributor, but price wise is similar.I think the most important thing is, once the OS installation license is activated and registered atit's mothershipMSunder your account, for example, when logged in Microsoft's account site (https://account.microsoft.com), it shows so many details, like cpu, memory, GPU, how many drives, size, freespace and volume label and etc. No , I didn't supply it.Again, don't like telemetry ? Switch side or live with it.Example screen at MS account where shows my registered machine.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 03:37:39 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 16, 2020, 09:27:08 pmI would love to have a good CONSTRUCTIVE conversation and discussion about it.Actually, I have tried it many times.Unfortunately it always ends up in fan boys jibber jabber that don't look any further than their own community. and were a lot of people dish it but can't take it.Which isextremelyironic when they try to make Linux more popular and yell that it has to be installed on every machine.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 04:00:52 pm
content: The Windows/Linux/Mac discussion gets old real fast...The truth is, all three are pretty awesome compared to using an abacus!

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 04:02:58 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on July 20, 2020, 03:37:39 pmNope. Actual Linux users and developers don't want to make Linux more popular or install it on every machine, only the ones we ourselves use.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 04:11:56 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 20, 2020, 04:00:52 pmThat totally depends with who you're having a discussion with.I have had some (rare) constructive discussions about which were very enjoyable.But as soon as people start talking and nitpicking small details and don't seem to understand the bigger picture, I agree, it gets very old within minutes.Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 20, 2020, 04:02:58 pmWeird, I guess you talk to very different people than.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 04:54:05 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on July 20, 2020, 04:11:56 pmNo, I mean, you can safely ignore anyone who wants to make Linux more popular, talks about the importance of making Linux more popular, or wants to install it on machines other than the ones they use or manage themselves.There is no irony there, just people making noise about what they want other people to do, since they're too lazy or inept to do it themselves.I am a Linux user (only OS I've used for the past decade or two) and developer myself. We – linux users and devs – do not benefit from popularity; it just isn't a factor.Talking about how to do different kinds of tasks in Linux is a different matter, but really out of scope for this particular thread.

author: 0db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 05:36:33 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 20, 2020, 04:54:05 pmI am not sure, but I think this is one of the main difference between Linux and FreeBSD.I rarely see FreeBSD people trying to "promote" their OS. Yes, sometimes they do, but they usually spend most time implementing the OS rather than telling people things.Less noice. I mean. And I do like it

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 05:47:27 pm
content: What is actually the most "hard core" Linux distribution, that makes absolutely no concessions to popularity or ease of use - if there is such a thing?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 06:06:01 pm
content: Possibly Slackware.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 06:40:58 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 20, 2020, 04:54:05 pmwell that "anyone" is actually a pretty big group,shouting it on almost every community forum, but please lets not get into detailsBut what is wrong of making it actually more popular and mainstream?Linux has a lot of potential for that, I have been using it also as my main system for the last 5 years + 15 years on-and-off before.I just find it so sad that nobody seems to really want to take the leap and make something really great from it.Just to have some proper competition to Microsoft. I think this thread clearly shows how downhill that is going.

author: 0db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 07:04:34 pm
content: "Windows10 Pro" vs "Windows10 Lite"I have just found that "Windows10 Lite" is used by bank operators and it seems very interesting because it doesn't update anything except the security services and only if you allow it.- it doesn't come with any EDGE browser- it doesn't come with any Cortana things- it doesn't come with any Microsoft Store App- Windows Update only installs security updates- There is no button suggesting Skype or Office 365- You can disable telemetry services and user data collection- It uses less ram- It has less running processes in the backgroundIt looks perfect for my 8 years old laptop!

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 07:56:24 pm
content: Never heard of a "Lite" version. Searching found some references to 3rd part install scripts.

author: 0db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 08:06:18 pm
content: It should be also known as "LTSB", “Long Term Servicing Branch“.Thus the full name is "Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB Lite".

author: 0db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 08:14:03 pm
content: Thus we should haveWindows 10 HomeWindows 10 Education (for students and teachers)Windows 10 S(1) EditionWindows 10 ProWindows 10 Enterprise LTSB lite(1) dunno if "S" stands for "Slim" or "Store", I only know that it's kind of LTSB where you can install only Applications from the Microsoft Store.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 08:25:53 pm
content: Quote from: 0db on July 20, 2020, 08:14:03 pmIn your research, did you get to the part where it says LTSB is not available for sale to the general public?

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 08:55:12 pm
content: I spent some time customising stuffQuote from: 0db on July 20, 2020, 07:04:34 pmVery quick to startup and shutdown.I did have to look in task scheduler, group policy and and set all sorts of things to get it working in the way I want. I disabled and removed a few things, one being DaShost.exe for making too many connections to Microsoft and after the updates months ago some trivial GUI component appeared "you need updates click here to update" in a blue square box at the bottom right with no close button I so was infuriated I spent hours looking to remove it. I don't mind reminders but being harassed by unclosable widgets is a no no.Oops I didn't see it being referred to as lite.I have the LTSB edition.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 09:22:33 pm
content: Okay, there is no official Microsoft "Lite" version. Apparently there never was. Also, it seems Microsoft now refers to LTSB as LTSC (Channel instead of Branch).

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 09:31:22 pm
content: Oh Lite, referring to it as lite I didn't read.I think I read that Windows 10 Home and Pro were the "current branch".

author: 0db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 09:40:16 pm
content: Lite is part of the "Enterprise" version.Windows 10 Enterprise is available for- corporations with multi licenses (e.g. bank operators)- collaborations- everybody, but only 90 days trialI am an external collaborator, I can get it

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 05:03:17 pm
content: Quote from: 0db on July 20, 2020, 09:40:16 pmHow do you become an "external collaborator"?

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 05:26:40 pm
content: Quote from: 0db on July 20, 2020, 09:40:16 pmMicrosoft does not offer a "Lite" version of Windows 10.https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/search?q=windows+10+lite

author: 0db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 06:56:15 am
content: Quote from: rdl on July 21, 2020, 05:26:40 pmTwo ISOs from the official Microsoft serverISO - Enterprise (contains Lite, but it's for corporations)ISO - LTSC <------------- download this!LTSC replaces LTSB. ISOs will work for 90 days as trial version.The problem, anyway, is getting a license.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 07:00:26 am
content: Quote from: 0db on July 22, 2020, 06:56:15 amCan you share the link or is it restricted?If I get the legit ISO LTSC I could try the cheap ass fishy Ebay License.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 09:14:34 am
content: HintSHA256: B570DDFDC4672F4629A95316563DF923BD834AEC657DE5D4CA7C7EF9B58DF2B1

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 07:31:34 pm
content: Here is where to go for evaluation copies from Microsoft. You can use evaluation versions for quite a while.https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/evaluate-windows-10-enterpriseThey ask for a lot of information which includes company info. I didn't bother.I found some direct download links here.https://www.sysnettechsolutions.com/en/download-windows-10-enterprise-1809/The site doesn't look too shady and the download links point back to microsoft.comI downloaded the LTSC iso, but have no idea when I might get around to installing it.

author: clearscreen
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:24:55 pm
content: Greetings,i'm a little afraid of going in the discussion (i've tried to read all messages but please forgive me il i say already said things)Well i've worked on some unix (aix, solaris, hpux and bsd) and linux server distribution (redhawk/rhel/centos) and also windows from NT4 to last including station and server versions.At home i've some unix/linux (and even a system i to learn) servers but my station to do gaming, wordprocessor and all is a win7 pro. I really like it. It work like a charm (cpu is devil canyon (i like this name lol) i7 with 24GB ram, 512Go SSD and a GTX1060 6gb). I'm not a hardcore gamer and i didn't want to change my hardware.I always try to avoid win10. Finally a day i was switched to windows10 at work and we bought new computers with win10 for my wife and one of my children... So i've seen some elements that are familiar ... but i really dislike the perpetual update including major elements...I always have to search between old configuration panel and new one... :-)Seems that 10 pro is stable but i also remember terribles updates which hang the boot, alter some file on desk and all...I'm thinking about an "empty station" with just games and office and linux server and nas for other things ...So i'll read again the topic and be glad to discuss with you because i really (really) don't know what to do :-)Many thanks for reading.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 01:34:02 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on July 22, 2020, 09:14:34 amSorry, one more question. Does the ISO change at every update? So is this SHA256 related to the last one??

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 01:47:46 pm
content: Just don't need to worry, once connected to mothership, you will be taken care off, period.Also LTSC will not get bombarded with lot of junks as ordinary W10, hence the word "Long Term" as in the "LT-SC" stands for.Suggested reading ->FAQ: Windows 10 LTSB/LTSC explainedBut be warned though, LTSC is not suitable for gamer as it doesn't choke down to your throat routinely, the latest/leading edge junks/bug fixes for games, not a problem for me as I don't game.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 04:26:30 pm
content: Windows is barely, if at all, able to update itself correctly. Why anyone would allow it control over updating anything else has always baffled me.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 04:41:08 pm
content: Yep, it seems each new update breaks something. June's highlight was the printer disaster and the reset of privacy settings.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 07:01:53 pm
content: Quote from: madires on July 23, 2020, 04:41:08 pmAgain? Windows XP went through a similar flurry of printer problems. Cost me 2 days to fix.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 07:09:54 pm
content: About the printing problem:https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-information/status-windows-10-2004#436msgdesc

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 05:47:16 am
content: Weird, my LTSC didn'tcatch the cold... err .. get that junk update during June to July 2020.The machine literally is on all the time 24/7, don't touch any of the Windows Update mechanism, all by default setting, and connected all the time to the internet.The only almost daily update I received is the antivirus definition which is norm, while OS patches delivered thru "Quality Updates" is quite minimal. The only big update recently is the top urgent major nasty bug the KB4558998 including that printing bug. Just look for yourself, the screen shots of my Windows Update history, and also fyi my LTSC was freshly reinstalled at last April btw.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 10:28:29 am
content: when I see .NET Framework my blood pressure goes up.Am I the only one?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 10:38:08 am
content: Thats why I am booting more and more everyday on my Linux Mint.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 12:39:27 pm
content: Quote from: Zucca on July 24, 2020, 10:28:29 amWindows API remains stable and backward compatible for many years. You can easily write software which worked on Win NT and still works Win 10..NET software requires a particular version of the .NET framework, which constantly breaks backward compatibility. While this might be beneficial for Microsoft, this is lots of troubles for software vendors. But they still use it.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 01:10:43 pm
content: Quote from: 0db on July 20, 2020, 07:04:34 pmLite lol. Long-Term Servicing Channel.It doesn't do feature updatesat all. After 10 years you must reinstall the next version.It does not ship with an image viewer (and you can't install it, since there there is no store support).It has a significantly reduced driver package.It is only available for partners or volume licenses.Amazing for the ATM. Poor for your home pc.https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/Windows-IT-Pro-Blog/LTSC-What-is-it-and-when-should-it-be-used/ba-p/293181

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 05:11:53 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on July 24, 2020, 12:39:27 pmYes, that was IMHO one of the major reasons Windows became so widely used, and actually appreciated by developers.I fully confirm this, I have Windows apps written like almost 20 years ago that still work on recent Windows versions, and they can still be compiled with the latest tools and maintained.MS had done IMHO a very good job at this with the Windows API, and it was (IMHO) even pretty decently documented.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 08:12:01 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 24, 2020, 05:11:53 pmMS knew what they were doing back in the day - then a new team stepped in, and had to learn all the lessons over again (e.g. Windows 8 and the Modern UI fiasco). MS had strict rules for the user interface back in the day, every application had to work generally the same way when opening files, saving files, printing, etc., and people would generally find it irritating if a developer didn't follow the standard model. Enter the new generation... cluelessly creating new user interface paradigms at the drop of a hat almost for each new application, no real appreciation of what "affordance" means, thinking that having 95% of the user's monitor covered with white pixels is good clean design rather than an utter waste of expensive and hard fought for screen real estate, etc. etc.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 12:52:32 pm
content: BravoV, you are almost convincing me that LTSC is a great way to go back to Windows again. I may try it later this year when things get a little more settled in my life.One question: LTSC is a one time license job and not those SaaS that you have a maintenance plan, right? I read the references mentioned on this thread but I am still not 100% sure if this is the case nor if I, as a home user, can buy one without violating any TOS.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 01:40:42 pm
content: Well, let me explain my self a bit, I consider my self power user since DOS era, endless tweaking CONFIG.SYS & AUTOEXEC.BAT to squeeze even the last drip of byte and performance, so did I on WIN.INI & SYSTEM.INI at Win9X era, up to tweaking Windows registry endlessly for years. Ended up I grew old and just do not want to do it anymore.Here my responds regarding your view on LTSC.Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 24, 2020, 01:10:43 pmWhat ? Do you plan to use it the same OS installation after 10 years ?Since you just read, never used it yourself, which feature do you think will make your life harder ? Be specific please ?Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 24, 2020, 01:10:43 pmWhat are you talking about ?Viewer ? Geez... if you can not live without Windows Store to have your application/program to be installed at your computer, or you just can not install programs manually like running SETUP.EXE and etc, then I just don't have words anymore.Geezz .. youngsters, old days people do install full fledged serious program even by batch file.Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 24, 2020, 01:10:43 pmWhat driver specifically ? Please, be specific ? Especially the one that you mentioned like that made the Windows crippled.Fyi, currently I'm running Ryzen Matisse, 32GB ECC RAM, Radeon RX580 and Dell Perc H730 (an enterprise grade RAID controller), and all driver actually self downloaded "AUTOMATICALLY' by Windows 10 LTSC once freshly installed, period.Of course, in order to get the latest bell & whistles like GPU, you need to manually download the bling2 version of GPU driver directly from the manufacturer like AMD Radeon software which has rich features like for gamers, of course this kind of driver NORMALLY is not automatically installed by Windows, you have to manually do it. Or AMD Ryzen Master for tweaking OC-ing, this too. Or let say, example mouse, usually Windows will install generic version of the mouse driver by it self, to have the bling2 full featured driver/apps for the mouse, then you have to manually download and install it. Again, if you depend Microsoft Store just for these, then do not use LTSC.Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 24, 2020, 01:10:43 pmNope, you go legit path, call you local "AUTHORIZED" Microsoft Distributor, have you done it ? Just a chit chat will just cost you a phone call.Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 24, 2020, 01:10:43 pmBe specific what "limitation" that you have experienced ? Not just arm chair expert.Again, if you're complaining that you can not live without Microsoft Store, Edge, Cortana, or the OS is constantly spamming you to install games, One Drive and etc, clearly LTSC is not suitable for you, just stay with your Windows 10 Retail version.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 01:45:22 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on July 25, 2020, 12:52:32 pmI believe you have spare SSD or Harddisk right ? Try download the evaluation version, I posted the link few posts back. Once installed, try to use it just few hours to get the taste & feel, compared to ordinary Windows 10.And call you local MS rep if you want legit path, of course fishy path is also available if you look hard enough.Personally, my rig is for serious business and provides me bread & butter, I preferred legit path, but if I was young and playing games only, hell, I will find a way, the cheap way.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 02:17:36 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on July 25, 2020, 01:45:22 pmThanks for the tips. I think I will follow the eval path on a separate SSD.I am not a fancy person and do not have a MS rep to call, but I will try the "online chat" way.This would be my main machine at home, but I would rather have a legal route.By the way, thank you for alluding that I was young!

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 03:05:43 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on July 25, 2020, 02:17:36 pmMeh ... remembered that you mentioned something about TSR programor Scrooge McDuck swimming in sea of coins, definitely your age > 30.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 03:08:48 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 24, 2020, 08:12:01 pmYeah, and MSDN was actually a great resource.Quote from: SilverSolder on July 24, 2020, 08:12:01 pmWell, I don't know exactly how it got restructured, but it certainly did. Methods changed, goals changed. As we said numerous times, their attempt at creating a common platform for desktop and mobile uses just failed, but they kept at it.The UI rules - certainly. That was the case for MacOS too (but Apple has managed to keep things more consistent). The whole point of providing all basic UI controls at the OS level was exactly for that. Give the user a consistent experience.Whereas it was a good thing, and still is, I can see how they could make the shift to less consistent user interfaces. Back in the 80's and 90's, most people were still not computer-literate at all. The GUIs tremendously helped making computing more accessible, but for that to work, you still had to offer very consistent UIs, otherwise people were quickly lost. Nowadays, things have evolved a lot and most people now are completely accustomed to computing devices, so software vendors can "afford" less consistent UIs - msot people will still be able to use that. It's annoying, and likely a lot less productive than consistent UIs, but it kind of works. We always tend to follow the easy path. Just MHO.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 03:45:10 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 26, 2020, 03:08:48 pmSometimes a "non standard UI" is actually very good. For example, LTSpice gets a lot of flak for being non-standard. But once you learn the keyboard shortcuts, it is much faster to use than it would have been with a standard interface...Photoshop is another example. It is a pig to use via the menus, but once you learn a substantial set of keyboard commands it becomes a breeze to use.When all is said and done, a computer application can be a very complex tool that requires substantial skill to use, there is really no way round the need for special UI "tricks" to facilitate that.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 06:31:34 pm
content: i write pcbcad61 software.i use menu's.i use right click context menus.i use toolbars.i also use a status line to instruct user what to do next.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 07:04:25 pm
content: I remember reading somewhere that originally Windows was to be controlled only by the mouse. Keyboard shortcuts were added at the request of the military. Or maybe it was just a requirement in order to sell it for military use.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 07:05:43 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 26, 2020, 06:31:34 pmAnd 100% for sure, you use keyboard shortcuts to make usage efficient once you learn them!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 10:41:43 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on July 25, 2020, 03:05:43 pmYep. Both take you straight to ancient times alright, although I am pretty sure that the vast majority of folks I helped setting up their computers would not know what a TSR is/was.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 10:47:43 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on July 26, 2020, 07:04:25 pmI am not sure if that is the exact reason but, at least in my experience, the first time we installed Windows/286 we didn't even have a mouse. It was quite useless for the typical personal computer of the time immersed in DOS and each software had its own thorough navigation system with arrows, tab, spacebar and Enter.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 01:03:12 am
content: Thinking about it a bit more, I might have got it sort of backwards. It may have been that Windows had to be completely controllable with no mouse at all. Seems like the alt+underscore keyboard shortcuts for the menu bar items (File, Edit, Help, etc.) were mentioned as being added for that reason.

author: 0db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 01:16:13 am
content: I'd like to have the OS and all the applications loaded from an SSD device, temporary files, working in progress projects on an HDD device, and archived projects accessed on a CIFS server over the network.I wonder if it's possible to have it with Windows 10

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 01:56:56 am
content: Quote from: Zucca on July 23, 2020, 01:34:02 pmThe English x64 LTSC version I downloaded from the Microsoft page has a different hash:C:\Users\user\Downloads>certUtil -hashfile 17763.107.101029-1455.rs5_release_svc_refresh_CLIENT_LTSC_EVAL_x64FRE_en-us.iso SHA256SHA256 hash of file 17763.107.101029-1455.rs5_release_svc_refresh_CLIENT_LTSC_EVAL_x64FRE_en-us.iso:66 8f e1 af 70 c2 f7 41 63 28 ae e3 a0 bb 06 6b 12 dc 6b bd 25 76 f4 0f 81 2b 95 74 1e 18 bc 3aCertUtil: -hashfile command completed successfully.It installed fine on VMware Player 15.5, but you cannot use their assisted install but instead install it manually (short clip)So far it looks quite alright; the system is quite clean and it has Internet Explorer just to download and install Firefox. I don't see any Cortana, Search, Telemetry and other shenanigans. So far so good. Got to find a SSD.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 06:34:49 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on July 25, 2020, 01:40:42 pmI don't expect a Windows 11 soon.It has no image viewer, which means you have to install a third party one (eg: irfanview) since the microsoft one depends on parts that have been removed.It only supports recent silicons. New Ryzen 4000 apu's? Not happening.I've prepared a few ltsc industrial systems over the years to know what it can and can't do.Some applications also don't work on ltsc like visual studio and some convoluted sap things. Haven't tested office things, but I expect the cloud stuff to not be supported.And yes, local reseller won't sell them without hardware.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 06:52:24 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on July 27, 2020, 01:56:56 amRafael,Yes, the evaluation ISO hash is different, I got mine from local distributor (a legit authorized MS distributor), and that hash I posted was mine, and out of curiosity when I google it (with my hash), the internet has tons of them.About your experience in VM, I can't comment as I installed at bare metal, and no evaluation options to choose, it just asked for the key at installation, thats all.Suggesting bare metal installation, not under VM, just try it till you are satisfy, and then scrap it.Yes, those so called shenaniganson ordinary version, Cortana, Edge, nagging you constantly like OneDrive, games like Minecraft and etc, I know you can disable them, but its just feel dirty. Just look at the freshly installed start menu, just blank & clean, no distractions at all.Really like to hear your opinion and experiences, once you played with it for a while, especially with your current hardware and your most used programs running in that LTSC.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 07:03:06 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 27, 2020, 06:34:49 amWhat is wrong by installing 3rd party app, eg:irfanview for image viewer ? Beside Microsoft basic apps are mediocre or poor, like Paint ?Off topic, my fav image viewer, probably one of the fastest and snappier in the world, slim & mean, open source, utilizes multicores, AVX2 and etc.->https://sourceforge.net/projects/jpegview/Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 27, 2020, 06:34:49 amNot planning on Ryzen 4000, and don't know, but my current Matisse Ryzen Zen2 just runs flawlessly.Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 27, 2020, 06:34:49 amI have Office 2019 installed, runs flawlessly.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 11:51:04 am
content: I find this video below, is excellent explaing what is LTSC, it's pro and con.As I hinted "phone call" to local Microsoft distributor, its literally phone call, as when it comes to buying their product, trust me, its like flea market, do NOT trust everything you read in the web, even Microsoft's.Pay attention on the buying LTSC in the video, let me share my secret, I have friend who works at big corporation, his role as procurement manager, and part of his role is dealing with local Microsoft distributor, and mostly the deal reached 5 digits US$. Again, its like flea market, everything you read about the rule about the procurement rule in Microsoft product, doesn't mean shit. My friend simply tell the distributor, that asked them to sell LTSC licences to me (as his friend) and him as well and got pretty good bargain.As I mentioned before, Windows 10 is shit, but because of the burden of bread & butter, I must endure it, and currently I opted the most less shit among them.Its not for everybody, yes, but if you just want stable platform, say for next few years, no bling2 stuff and not advance gamer, no bloatwares and no craps installed, I think you should consider it. Btw, friend installed Steam at LTSC and plays a lot of new games which required advance new hardware, they work just fine.Suggest to watch till the end, especially once he finished the installation and showed the freshly installed LTSC looks like, say compared to ordinary home W10.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 01:07:03 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on July 27, 2020, 07:03:06 amMost IT people really don't like installing apps like that on an endpoint.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 01:41:28 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 27, 2020, 01:07:03 pmAh .. I get it now, you are talking PC used in enterprise office environment, that everything must be properly supplied and standardized by IT department.I am talking about using slim & mean Windows OS that going to used in "personal PC" at home, where we are WILLINGLY install what ever apps we like to install by our self, yes, that includes manually download it from the software author say like LTSpice and manually install it like running SETUP.EXE or MSI files for example.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 03:17:58 pm
content: I've not had use for any Windows "Features" in years. I highly prefer 3rd party utilities, open source if possible. I guess it's good to know Steam and games will work on LTSC. Games are about the only thing Windows is useful for anymore, at least for me. Steam has turned into yet another butt-sniffing piece of malware, unfortunately it's hard to avoid completely if you want to play the newest games.I'm curious to see how the "evaluation" period is implemented now. Windows 7 had a flaw/exploit. The time limit was only checked at boot. If you never rebooted, the evaluation period never expired. I've read that there is now an automatic reboot/restart when in evaluation mode, maybe as an attempt to fix that exploit. However, I've also read there is a Registry setting (of course) that will stop this from happening.

author: 0db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 03:42:04 pm
content: On "Windows 10S" you can install ONLY applications from the Microsoft Store.The "S" stands for "Secure". And it has a very severe restriction.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 03:43:30 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on July 27, 2020, 03:17:58 pmYep, infact some really good closed source app say like LTSpice for example, currently I'm running under virtualization at Linux host. I put my important data at separate drives and NAS btw, anything bad at the Windows OS , just restore the working virtualization image, and took very little effort.Quote from: rdl on July 27, 2020, 03:17:58 pmGood luck on your quest, really curious how you end up with.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 03:52:30 pm
content: Quote from: 0db on July 27, 2020, 03:42:04 pmAll my applications are installed manually thru traditional way, download from the software website, run the installation file, thats it. Also LTSC has no Microsoft Store.Example listing part of my installed apps, all were manually installed.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 04:19:40 pm
content: thanks BravoV, excellent infos.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 04:22:55 pm
content: Windows 10S still exists?I always thought ofSas standing for Scam or Shortchanged, but I see now it's called "S Mode" and apparently can be one-way upgraded to a full version for free.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 04:47:47 pm
content: Quote from: 0db on July 27, 2020, 04:46:23 pmIts Windows 10 LTSC, details at my posts with screen shots, just scroll back few pages.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 10:45:56 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on July 27, 2020, 01:41:28 pmThe usage and setup expectations are different indeed, although our IT department rarely recommends anything straight from Microsoft: 7zip, Acrobat Reader, Screenpresso, Chrome or Firefox, etc. All available for download from an internal portal (which I imagine it was vetted by them). Not only that, but they image a standard baseline straight to each station. (I agree it may demand extra labor to do that).Regarding the image viewer, I personally throw that garbage in the trash whenever possible after one of its ancient versions used to re-encode JPEGs when you simply rotated the picture on it (not deliberately saving). Irfanview FTW (although it requires a license for commercial environments).

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 10:49:04 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on July 27, 2020, 06:52:24 amYeah, I will try on a SSD I removed from an old netbook of mine. I hope the Extreme EX58 with a six core Xeon works fine. If not, I would just have spent a few minutes on it.

author: twix8386
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 27, 2021, 04:23:47 pm
content: This is a bit weird in my opinion and sounds like a myth, because what is the relationship between system-wide shortcuts like (alt + tab) related to war or army? : -DD Even if it was under pressure from the army, it was the right decision. However, this is similar to Windows policy. For example, Windows 10 Pro n practically does not differ from the simple version. For example, it is only used for work, because it is impossible to listen to music or watch a movie there due to the lack of an audio player. There are also huge advantages that are only suitable for a working atmosphere and nothing more. If you are also interested to see the differences between the versions, then you are herehttps://techplugged.com/what-is-the-windows-10-pro-n-edition/

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2021, 08:22:28 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 27, 2020, 01:07:03 pmApps like what? Third party tools and apps are widely used and installed, especially utility ones.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2021, 09:26:05 pm
content: Windows 10 ? Windows 7 ?A lot of my ebay customers are still using XP ! (I am a software developer)Not sure if its because they are happy with it or just too tight to upgrade or frightened/unable to upgrade.Probably short sighted from a security point of view.