Managing staff in the era of safe-space - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 03:10:58 pm
content: Hey folks,I like your input so I can give the right advice to my college age kid.If you have managed / lead millennials in your project(s), how have you dealt with their performance review or giving them negative feedbacks in this age of safe-space? Any "I feel unsafe" push backs?I just don't know how one could do a "code (or design) walk through", a "360 review", or an annual performance review with an employee who just recently left his/her "safe-space".I would have just tell the guy who "felt unsafe" with negative feed backs to clean his/her desk nicely for the next occupant. But, I am retired so I know my methods could be out of date. Kids generally think "old folks" don't know anything about today's world, so I want to arm myself with recent input.I'm in the USA. I am interested in all opinions. Where appropriate, please indicate where you are as laws about employee governance likely differ.Thanks, guys![Edit: adding below (same as a reply I wrote, but I want this up front) ]From the responses thus far, I can seeI made a mistake here: I was unclear with manager vs employee. Let me add this clarification:My kid is college age, so I don't expect her to be a boss anytime soon. I am gathering information on how you would handle your staff on negative things so as to know what may be typical warning signs.I the old days, there were certain well defined common-sense action a manager would take when they discern the employee needs help. But I suspect in this age of "safe-space", the management probably adjusted their style to soften feedback they give to employee. I don't know to what degree managers have been instructed to turn down the heat. May be some managers have been given some clear guide lines for this era, or may be some have been instructed to just throw it over the wall to HR...With the (probably many) project lead/manager here, at least I would have some examples of how the boss may behave - ie: the creme-puff warning signs for this "safe space" era.(I am editing the original OP to put this clarification up front also)

author: JVR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 03:17:05 pm
content: Having had graduates under me at my previous employer, we managed the best by explaining to them that they will make mistakes, and that the hallmark of a great engineer is the ability to accept that fact, and ask questions. By re-enforcing that into them, instead of crying during reviews, they started asking how it could be done better, or what had led them to making a mistake.This approach still does need a bit of maturity in the engineer. Generally if they still lived with their parents, there was no hope, and they would be auctioned off to support or technician duties.

author: Wan Huang Luo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 03:19:22 pm
content: Since kids these days bring their parents to job interviews, they will also probably bring their parents to performance reviews too. Maybe there will be a Parent-Employer meeting the way they do parent-teacher meetings too.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 03:39:32 pm
content: You have got to be kidding (parents at job interviews) - WTF?

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 03:49:40 pm
content: 1. Is this a real problem you are encountering, or something from a tabloid?2. Can you clarify your definition of what a "millenial" is?3. Can you clarify your definition of what a "safe-space" is?

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 04:18:03 pm
content: Here's my view from the UK, where I believe it's a little harder to get rid of people than the US.This is one of the few areas where HR can actually add value. While HR have their nonsense double standard PC side (usually greeted with gritted teeth), at the end of the day they're accountable to the board, and the board certainly won't put up with any safe space or parental support BS.HR will figure out a way to manage the perp out. This is usually managed by getting them to agree to seemingly reasonable goals that aren't realistically within the capabilities of the trouble maker. Ergo, at appraisal time they're non-performing. It takes time, but it works. It's quite hard to fire someone in the UK without a documented and fair process, which includes the employer being seen to make efforts. It's not unusual for the perps to miss the message that they're being managed out, I guess a bit of Dunning Kruger comes into effect.Frankly, if someone decides to turn up to interview with their parents, or an emotional support animal, or demanded safe spaces, they won't get the job. If any of them seriously think employers are going to pander to any of this nonsense, they're grossly mistaken. The only reason they got the interview would probably be for entertainment for the hiring manager.I had someone recently who was hired based on a phone interview alone (they were from abroad). I am pretty darned sure the person who was interviewed wasn't the same person sat at the desk: their knowledge wasn't indicative of the interviewee, and they needed spoon feeding [what happens when half the population has a degree]. They lasted about three months before they quit, but at their exit interview they chose to pull the bullying card. That didn't go down at all well with anyone, except HR of course who love a juicy witch hunt. That is the biggest nightmare of it, that HR can't resist throwing everyone onto the fire, but it gives HR plenty to gossip about.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 04:26:56 pm
content: A lot of generalities but what specific concern do you need to address?Also, I think this safe-space thing is a trendy fad that only works in certain contexts with momentum.Your kid is probably a lot more like you than you think and would probably respect a similar treatment that you've received.https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-29/fed-says-millennials-are-just-like-their-parents-only-poorer

author: Wan Huang Luo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 04:28:30 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on December 20, 2018, 03:39:32 pmgoogle search of what you wrote (parents at job interviews) comes up with a tidal wave of gems. Failing that, here's a bite:https://www.wsj.com/articles/hiring-millennials-meet-the-parents-1378856472?tesla=y

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 04:40:37 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on December 20, 2018, 03:10:58 pmHonestly it seems to be a mistake to lump people into "millennial" and "non-millennial" categories. Approaching people like that is bound to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Thinking in terms like "kids these days" makes you the old sod out of touch with the real world, rather than those kids being anything special or different. There will inevitably be some misguided youngsters out there, but those have always existed. Don't let the hype fool you. Most seem to be level-headed, willing and able to learn and quite realistic about what to expect. There's no need for sugar coating and criticism is welcomed. We really need to ditch this generational thinking. We're all in this together.

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 05:14:44 pm
content: Quote from: Wan Huang Luo on December 20, 2018, 03:19:22 pmI do wonder how much of that is the fault of the parents themselves. I once almost ended up with my grandfather accompanying me to a job interview. Fortunately I managed to decline.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 05:37:52 pm
content: Safe spaces and environments where you want to get things done don't mesh. If people want their safe space, they can make their own company or community, and I can watch from the sides as it crashes and burns as soon as it encounters any difficulties.Specific internet communities have given many people the impression they can choose how people interact with them and what kind of information they consume.Then add the inevitable echo chamber phenomenon and you get people thinking that they're entitled to a safe space anywhere, with anyone who's not respecting it being an abusive dick.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 05:56:08 pm
content: Quote from: steve30 on December 20, 2018, 05:14:44 pmConsidering how you're typically sitting down with an HR team of people on the other side, taking a +1 with years of experience with you isn't that terrible of an idea. Having the right to a lawyer present when questioned is essentially the same. It just becomes a bit awkward when your +1 is also a parent and the whole thing starts looking like a parent-teacher conference.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 06:12:06 pm
content: In the UK you can get rid of someone who has worked in the organization for less than two years without giving them a reason. If you let them stay longer when you know they're not suitable...I've only had to performance manage one person out the door. They'd been employed initially as a contractor and were excellent. Taken on as a permie and slowly they started to take less care, which of a board layout person isn't a good trait.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 07:15:57 pm
content: From the responses thus far,I can see I made a mistake here: I was unclear with manager vs employee. Let me add this clarification:My kid is college age, so I don't expect her to be a boss anytime soon. I am gathering information on how you would handle your staff on negative things so as to know what may be typical warning signs.I the old days, there were certain well defined common-sense action a manager would take when they discern the employee needs help. But I suspect in this age of "safe-space", the management probably adjusted their style to soften feedback they give to employee. I don't know to what degree managers have been instructed to turn down the heat. May be some managers have been given some clear guide lines for this era, or may be some have been instructed to just throw it over the wall to HR...With the (probably many) project lead/manager here, at least I would have some examples of how the boss may behave - ie: the creme-puff warning signs for this "safe space" era.(I am editing the original OP to put this clarification up front also)

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 07:34:17 pm
content: I am almost a decade into the retirement thing, so my knowledge is dated, but I don't really think much has changed. There may be a higher percentage of the cream puffs and otherwise handicapped types, but it appears to me that there are plenty of workers left. It is up to the manager to sort that out at the hiring stage, and traditional management techniques should work for those who get through the screening process.Against that backdrop there have been two general trends over the last 50 years that continue and do impact management style. First, the trend to two worker families and work life balance have reduced commitment to work across the board. Workers of both sexes do not seek to get their primary fulfillment out of work. This is a practical response to the need to pinch hit for the other family worker at home and the reality that there is no corporate commitment in return for employee commitment. The second trend is partially a result of the first. The imperative leadership styles are less effective and less well tolerated than they used to be. Screaming I'll fire you if you don't do as ordered just isn't the way most places operate these days because it doesn't work too well with today's workers (In truth, it probably never was the most effective management style).From my point of view it is kind of like those "I learned every thing I needed to know in kindergarten" stories. Don't be an ass and lead don't manage. Works about as well today as it did half a century ago.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 07:57:44 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on December 20, 2018, 07:15:57 pmThere is no "age of safe-space". It's something which has been massively inflated by publications and platforms who thrive on controversy and discourse, and also used as a distraction. That doesn't mean it's representative of the real world. I'd say believing the hubbub is what shows being out of the loop more than anything else. Some people love shaking fists and screaming at the clouds how the whole world is falling apart and all the new recruits are easily damaged flowers, but that doesn't mean the world actually works that way. If you do approach the younger folks that way you're sure as hell going to get a lukewarm response, which may get mistaken for the imagined phenomena. If you approach people like they're idiots, they may not be very inclined to prove you wrong.I do think CatalinaWOW is correct that people are looking for fulfilment outside of their jobs too. It seems this is the logical consequence of the promise of infinite financial growth of yesteryear being shattered and reality setting in. The days of living a good live on a single blue collar income are gone and hard work is no longer expected to get you anywhere, so people look for other ways to make them happy and fulfil their desire to work on and build something of value.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 07:59:46 pm
content: PSA: The term "Millenial" currently encompasses people from the ages of 22 to 36. There are about 80 MILLION millenials in the US. Tons of accomplished people at all levels of engineering, management, and even some members of Congress are "millenials".Stop saying "millenial" when you mean people just entering the workforce for the first time (technically, by the common definition, anyone just now graduating from college at age 21 is no longer a millenial!).Stop assuming that all millenials are the special snowflakes obsessed with starbucks and avocado toast or whatever the fuck the latest over-wrought hand-wringer is shitting on millenials for.Most of all, stop conflating the idea the people should be free from bias and general mistreatment based on religion, gender, race, etc with the idea that people can't take constructive criticism about their work.I'm a millenial. Most of the people I know are millenials (we are the most populous generation in the US at the moment). You know what every single millenial I know wants?- To be paid a living wage commensurate with the amount of work they do (most of the millenials I know work their asses off, because they graduated college with tons of debt during a recession, and into an environment where real wages have stagnated and even declined relative to the price of education and housing. They have no choice but to work their asses off if they want to make ends meet).- To not have to put up with racist/sexist/homophobic/etc BS. This is NOT the same as saying you can't joke, or be friendly, or men can't talk to women or any of that other BS that people get all up in arms about. Just don't be shitty about it, take half a fucking second to think about the impact your words and actions will have on others and you'll be fine. I won't deny that there are some people who take that farther than is reasonable, but the vast majority of people simply don't want to deal with thoughtlessly entitled assholery.So how should you manage millenials? The same way you should manage everyone else. Be fair, be responsive to what your employees reasonably need to be effective at their jobs, be constructive in your criticism, and don't be shitty or thoughtless in your language and actions./rant

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 08:13:52 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 20, 2018, 07:34:17 pmI think you have things almost right. First of all, the decline of real wages relative to housing, education, and medical costs despite massive growth in overall productivity has driven the move towards two-income families. The breakdown in worker loyalty is a natural consequence of an economy that no longer compensates workers commensurately with their productivity. Secondly, I don't think that finding primary fulfillment at work is any less common now than it was for previous generations. The main difference is that committing yourself body and soul to your job is less likely to get you further ahead financially today than it was for the previous generation.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 08:32:24 pm
content: Yeah, I would agree with the sentiment of critique there work, and not blatantly insult them and you get along fine with most graduates.At least from my own point of view working with a past boss that was poor at managing his anger. E.g. a customer annoyed him, so I was vented at,Its not hard to change your work process to improve, but its much harder to improve your personal behaviors, So for code, saying "this is wrong, this needs to be fixed" verses "you can't code for shit, why am I paying you" .... well you get the picture, One the employee can work to improve, the other will just leave them pissed off and anxious for the next hour or so.as a 25 year old, I can say more than one employer has threatened me with my wage indirectly, and every time It has certainly not improved my work output for that day. "I'm paying you 12 dollars an hour, Why isn't everything done already" To what with conversations with other older employees, was a truly unreasonable task.And the worst one, more than once, I've been asked to swing by work to pick up some last minute job at the end of the day. The job was always going into overtime, (can't do an hours work in 15 minutes), and when my normal work hours ended, got a phone call saying "how are you travelling", that quickly turned into "why aren't you done yet, I'm not paying you overtime" and getting into an argument over that...Fair work for fair pay, And 2 sided conversations, are my top 2 requirements for not resenting my boss.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 08:42:31 pm
content: Quote from: ajb on December 20, 2018, 08:13:52 pmMillenials are under more financial stress than earlier generations. Part is due to to the inflation mentioned by ajb, but an equally significant part is caused by increasing expectations.My father was an engineer (effectively free education after five years of military service in wartime conditions) and his first house was two bedrooms, 600 sq ft and no indoor plumbing. Shortly after they upgraded to their lifetime house 900 sq ft and 1 bathroom with no AC and no forced air. They were a one car family, the car had no emission controls, no power steering, power brakes, automatic transmission, no power windows, no air conditioning, no power door locks and so on. Party line telephone. Entertainment was an AM radio. No computer at home.I am an engineer (no education debt due to scholarships, part time and summer work and parental help). My first house came a decade after graduation and was 1200 sq. ft. and two bathrooms, AC and forced air. No computer at home. Two car family. Unsophisticated smog controls. Power steering, power brakes, automatic transmission, but no other amenities. Private telephone line. Stereo. Color TV.My son is an engineer (moderate education debt due to paid internship and parental help). First house was 1600 sq ft, two baths, AC and forced air. Both cars have everything automated, on board navigation. air bags and many other safety features, along with highly sophisticated pollution controls that also allow performance better than prior cars. Phone and entertainment have blurred together with multiple cell phones, tablets, Bluetooth speakers. The communications bill is by far the largest utility bill and is a bill that didn't exist for prior generations. A home computer is mandatory and its connection is part of that large utility bill.It is more stressful, but in many ways richer and more rewarding to live today.The response to stress is different also. My father, a child of the great depression, was grateful to eat every day. I inherited a filtered version of that attitude. And passed none of it to my children.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 08:53:44 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 20, 2018, 08:42:31 pmWhile I do agree that more recent generations are under more financial stress, I don't agree that this has to do with increased expectations. Technology has marched on and subsequently become much cheaper. This accounts for all of the luxuries you mention. However, people have to expect a lot less. Whereas a single blue collar income could pay for a decent house not too long ago, now it's often two highly educated people with associated incomes struggling to get buy and often not being able to even afford a house. The luxuries in your home and car aren't a sign of better times. They're a meagre compensation for the things we can't afford any longer. I know swathes of younger people who would happily give up all of their air conditioners and power locks for a two bedroom house with a yard. People aren't asking for more, they're asking for a break.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 09:14:15 pm
content: I don't see how the reduction in electronics cost has made the internet bill cheaper than zero, which was the bill in earlier generations. Same thing for cell phones. Technology has made them cheap enough to "afford", but it they just weren't on the need to buy list years ago. That computer is not the company busting bill it would be in the fifties, or the price of a new luxury car as it was in the sixties or early seventies, but it is considered a necessity today and wasn't even considered until the mid seventies (by early adopting geeks like those of us on this forum who were willing to pay half the cost of a base model compact car).Same sort of thing applies across the board. Two bedroom houses with a yard are not too widely available because no one buys them. You can buy a lot and build your own, but it is hard to get a loan because the banks know it will be hard to find a buyer if you fail on the loan for some reason. And that lot and the permits to build on it cost more because of all of the additional requirements that exist today. If you look at cars, technology has reduced the cost of antilock braking systems and on board fuel consumption monitoring and tire pressure monitoring and rear backup cameras and ten speed transmissions and navigation to the point that it can be afforded. But all of those features (and their many brethren) add up to 20-30% of the value of a car today. Their cost was zero, because they didn't exist a few decades ago. Total electronic content in a car was the AM radio (in some, not all cars) and the spark suppression capacitor on the points.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 09:34:03 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on December 20, 2018, 03:39:32 pmWhere I work, the apprentice was actually asked by HR to bring his parents to the interview!Quote from: JVR on December 20, 2018, 03:17:05 pmIn the UK, most young people still live with their parents as rents and house prices are too high for them to afford, so you'd be ruling out some of the brightest graduates by doing that.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 09:57:39 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 20, 2018, 09:14:15 pmYou really can't make a comparison like that. Sure they didn't pay for the internet, but they did for their postal services and landline. Technology was way more expensive back then, which is why we're seeing so much of it in cars today. It's not fitted despite the price, it's fitted because of the low price. The scale of production and optimization is completely different than it was back then, so comparing goods apples to apples makes little sense.I know a lot of younger people are dying to buy a remotely appropriate house for their situation and they simply can't. People are living at home or pushing back starting a family because they don't have any place to go. This isn't because they're spending their money on luxuries, but because real estate is stupidly expensive compared to a handful of decades ago. Most people really aren't asking for the world.

author: nick_d
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 10:07:24 pm
content: In my opinion, the reason it is impossible to buy a house these days is simply because we are not allowed to manufacture anything in Western countries anymore; well technically we are, but since we are not allowed to pay the going rate, it effectively means we are not. Hence, 99% of everything we consume, except for some perishable goods, is imported. Result is that large amounts of our currency go overseas, and either the seller of the overseas-manufactured goods accepts the $US, #UK, AUD, etc and buys property in our country with it, or the exchange rate drops causing basically the same thing to happen. Similarly, when you go to the bank to get a personal or home loan, the money is lent to you by the overseas manufacturer (the large banks present a familiar face, but get their money in large part from China who can't use our money otherwise). This brings more cash into the economy and allows everyone to bid up the price of houses. Solution: allow companies to manufacture locally.Regarding the PC safe spaces yadda yadda: ignore. And anyone trying to "converge" your organization and make it politically correct needs to be managed out. Particularly keep an eye on HR since the infiltration will start there, allowing them to control and encourage further infiltration of the rest of your business. See "SJWs always lie" by Vox Day for more information about this.cheers, Nick

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 11:35:56 pm
content: Quote from: Tomorokoshi on December 20, 2018, 03:49:40 pm(I am saving #1 till I have defined terms)2. Can you clarify your definition of what a "millenial" is?I use it to mean someone who is college age, first few years post college.3. Can you clarify your definition of what a "safe-space" is?Some place where they are "safe" from criticism or hear things that make them uncomfortable.1. Is this a real problem you are encountering, or something from a tabloid?Yes - I have encountered a number kids who would be a problem waiting to happen. Up until a few years ago (and before this "safe space" concept), I used to volunteer for a school (300+ kids). I gave up one day every week (when school is on) for over 6 years. So, I have encountered a lot of kids and saw them grew up. During one school year, I was volunteering at another school to assist in one of their extra curricula activity team. The following year at yet another school, I attended a few extra curricula events with intend to switch my volunteer effort there. I attended just a couple events, but, I had enough of it.With some kids, the narcissism and their lack of ability to take in negative news surprised me. The respect factor is also missing.The know it all attitude has always existed with kids. The rebellion has always existed with kids. But lacking respect, being narcissistic, and wont take constructive criticism makes a deadly combination.It is with that experience that I am very concern about kids that age and how they would be in the work force.Quote from: metrologist on December 20, 2018, 04:26:56 pmI am looking for clues to plan.I know how to tell if a kid is in the lemon bin in the old pre "safe space" days - the boss sit you down and tell you what you need to do better; ask you what would help, so forth. If "safe space" has already invaded the average work place, the boss'es behavior would have changed. How it changed, I don't know since I am retired."How it changed" is what I want to be more informed about. I always like to think ahead. So far, my kid still come to me for advice. So I am preparing, should my kid ask me one day, or say to me such and such happened at work today - I want to be able identify "yeah, you are in danger zone" or "no, you are not getting kudos, actually, you are on short leash..."This is helping me so far. I am encouraged that many of you asked if this is a real problem. While I have encountered a handful of young adults with the deadly attributes (narcissism, etc... stated above), that so many of you think it may not be a real problem means perhaps once they transition out of school age, they grew up finally. Nothing like a failure that can teach you your limitations, I suppose.

author: ChristopherN
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 12:05:02 am
content: As someone who is 30 and hires people that are between 20 and 65 I can offer some insights (maybe).Most young people that actually apply for jobs are very motivated. You will have a few that are not really interested and just apply cause they were forced to (either thru the Arbeitsagentur or their parents / significant other) that will not respond or just not show up to meetings.My impression is that young people are generally easy to work with and much less of a pain than older people. This is very specific to Germany I guess, we have very high standards for employee compensation, sick days, holidays and other stuff. Older people over here seem to think that they were send from heaven in most cases and show that on every occasion.Regarding feedback it's sometimes a bit strange. The people who I would thought of being a bit out of touch generally take negative feedback quite well if you offer honest help and advice. I've seen (and employed) some more business orientated people that would not take any advice or change their ways despite being proven wrong.So in conclusion: If you pay people a fair wage, offer help and advice where needed and do not play the horror employer all day long you're just fine.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 01:47:39 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on December 20, 2018, 07:15:57 pmI'd advise you and your daughter to google 'metoo female hiring' and dig into related matters. If this trend continues (I think it will) the primary issue for your daughter may be how to get a job at all.Countermeasure strategies might include her being reasonably tough and no nonsense in interviews, even making a point of disavowing and criticizing the whole Leftist/Feminist/#metoo movement. And that when asked to do something, she'll just do it to the best of her abilities, rather than trying to double think and over analyze it.As for trying to read signs of boss dissatisfaction in the safe-space era, how about being proactive and open? Saying first up, that she welcomes criticism and advice, and won't be offended by it. Bearing in mind that her prospective boss won't be a safe-space type either, and will value directness (if they are any good.)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 05:43:32 am
content: I work with a bunch of millennials and honestly despite all the crap you hear about that generation, the people I work with aren't any worse than people of my generation or those older than me. Some of the youngest are a bit immature but so was I when I was younger, most of them will grow up. The really whiny entitled stereotypical type rarely get as far as to become employed in the corporate world, at least at the places I've worked. There's no need to be a complete dick about it and treat people rudely, simply explain that we all make mistakes occasionally and the important part is learning from the mistake and avoiding it happening again. If someone consistently is not performing or they are unable check their drama at the door then at some point it's time to let them go. If somebody is unable to see room for improvement in themselves and unable to take constructive criticism then they will not get very far.I've heard of people's parents coming to a job interview but I've never personally seen it. I suspect it's unlikely to work out well, at least in tech. We expect people who are independent and able to work on their own without constant hand holding.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 03:22:43 pm
content: Thanks guys, very useful input. Lots of "fruit for thought" here.Re: Parents at interviewI am not sure I understand this new world we are entering. 20 years ago, it would have got the same reaction had the candidate went to an interview for an EE position wearing mountain climbing gear.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 03:30:45 pm
content: some people are family oriented

author: radioactive
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 04:27:46 pm
content: From another angle.. If you are applying for a management position in a small company, but realize that you do not have the ability to get rid of bad players on your team because they are *protected* from above. My advice is run.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 04:44:47 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 20, 2018, 09:57:39 pmWould renting be an option?!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 04:53:23 pm
content: that sucks complete ass next to having a houseits like yea finish this education shit and enjoy your massive shelter downgradeespecially if your like most engineers and you like doing car stuff, home improvement stuff, artisan like hobbyraising kids in an apartment sucks too. you want them to do out doors stuff and have nature in their lives regularly not some shitty street and 'outings'Its the difference between helping out mom with gardening vs going to the bodega to fetch your dad beerand there is the old saying about giving a man an acre vs renting him an acre.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 05:03:21 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on December 21, 2018, 03:22:43 pmYes, the 'parents' thing will have the hiring manager laughing his/her ass off. Once they get back to their office.OTOH, an EE candidate wearing mountain climbing gear would fit right in anywhere in the Silicon Valley. We were always pretty relaxed about that kind of thing. I'd hire them, in a heartbeat. They're probably good enough at what they do that nobody cares what they wear to work. They probably have to wear something but, if they're good enough, accommodations could be made even for that quirk. Talented people are hard to find! Remember the two EEs in the movie "War Games"? Sure, they're geeks and the company is happy to have them!You can get a lot of insight from a resume. Lots of short term jobs? Right straight to the trash can!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 05:41:24 pm
content: If we're talking straight out of college, lots of short term jobs wouldn't concern me too much. Lots of people work odd jobs while in school, can't expect a fresh grad to have an extensive career history.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 06:24:09 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on December 21, 2018, 04:44:47 pmSince 1960, the cost of renting in the US has increased by 64%, whereas the median household income in real terms has only increased by about 20% (net) in the same time period. Since ~1973 real median full-time wages have had about ZERO net growth. Combine this with the massive increases in the costs of education and health care, and it's a lot more difficult to make ends meet than it was fifty years ago, no matter where or how you live. Since these are median figures, with the increase in income inequality over the same period, people in the lower percentiles have seen an even worse degradation of their financial position, while people in the highest percentiles have been the only ones whose incomes have kept pace with, or even outpaced, the growth in essential costs.https://www.apartmentlist.com/rentonomics/rent-growth-since-1960/

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 06:51:40 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on December 20, 2018, 11:35:56 pmOK, as I was reading some of the earlier commentary, a thought sprung to mind. How do we know you are not suffering from old man'sget off my lawn!syndrome? You know, kids these days...But I think the change in people management strategies have been much more evolutionary and are now more proactive than reactive. Of course, this will be a generality as a variety of cultural influences exist, but the management training programs I've gone through focus on psychology, motivation, and dynamic employee development through well targeted and specific goal/reward mechanisms. What is most important is the screening process, not planning disciplinary action strategies. The employee has to be the right fit for the job and the rest of the company, too, or there is little sense trying.It seems the safe space concept must be facilitated. I do not see that interfering with standard disciplinary action if it does come to that. There are many legal considerations that drive company policies/procedures for dealing with problems. I have had to go through that a few times and the reason for going there was always to achieve the same end result.How will the results of your investigation translate to your daughter?

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 07:03:51 pm
content: I don't know if it's the same outside the UK, but since degrees have become more and more expensive, and more and more common, there has been a significant grade inflation, devaluing older degrees.https://www.bbc.com/news/education-46604765This unexplained grade inflation is where far more top grades are issued now as a proportion of graduates. At the extreme end, Surrey University issued a First to over 50% of their graduates last year. It was around 10% or less when I graduated, and the university population in the UK was about a quarter of what it is now.To me, this is evidence of the commoditisation of degrees, as well as the sense of entitlement when someone's paid a lot for their qualification, irrespective of whether they've necessarily earned it.Of course, if a prospective graduate sees "better" degrees being offered, inevitably it becomes a marketing tactic.It also means that degree grades of today can't be equivalent to the same ones from ten or twenty years ago from the same university.One further comment is that HR very often dictate certain arbitrary qualifications, not just a degree, which is bad enough when someone has a wealth of proven experience, but also a minimum grade. While that might have some relevance in graduate recruitment, a degree, or the grade attained, means almost nothing ten or more years into a working career.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 07:13:15 pm
content: Yes, those with STEM degrees are doing just fine, thanks!The low end work has disappeared and those working on the lower end of the wage scale are in serious trouble. Couple that with restrictive laws re: building new housing, a general lack of affordable housing (whatever that means) and, sure as the law of supply and demand, housing costs are up. That's great! Our house is up $200k over the last 2 years. I love it!Health care costs have to be the biggest scam ever seen. ObamaCare didn't help those who already had insurance, quite the contrary, it actually put them in a worse situation. They couldn't keep what they had, they were now at the mercy of a new set of regulations which clearly favored the insurance companies and there were relaxed rules for the companies. For employer provided health care, costs skyrocketed and the only thing they could do was reduce headcount and stop increasing wages. Companies had to become more 'efficient'.In the Silicon Valley, it takes two high dollar wage earners to buy a house. The value of education just notched up. There really is going to be a divide between those with STEM degrees and those trapped at flipping burgers.There are exceptions of course! Law Enforcement around here pays quite well. In the city, there is not a single officer making less than $100,000. Their salary isn't necessarily that high but there is a lot of overtime and hire-back (special functions like the County Fair, sports events, etc). As I live away from Silicon Valley, housing is a little more reasonable.Us boomers, the best educated and most productive generation the world has ever seen, are dying off. We will be leaving behind a metric butt-load of money in our retirement accounts and dumpsters full of equity in our homes. I don't know if it is typical but generation jumping will probably become a thing; we will be leaving it to our grandkids. If they don't spend it on hookers and blow, they should be able to live quite comfortably.You want to buy a house? Join the military, spend some time and qualify for a VA loan. As a function of region, the VA covers the risk (guarantees the loan) for a varying amount. In my neighborhood, they cover the first $416,000 so, there is no downpayment on that amount. If the house costs more, say $500,000 then there is some kind of downpayment required on the $84,000 excess. If it is 20%, the amount would be $16,800. There will be no Primary Mortgage Insurance, it will typically be an FHA style loan (no ARMs) and interest rates are fairly low. There is a lot of housing in my neighborhood that is totally covered by the VA limit.Here's the thing: The lenders JUMP at VA loans because that first amount is guaranteed to the bank. Their risk on a $500,000 house (as above) is $84,000. Of course they want to sit on a half million in property for seventy thousand in risk! One other thing: The VA actively intervenes to prevent foreclosure. They try to help the Vet, not screw him out of a house.Got a new STEM degree? Maybe a short tour in the military is just the thing if you can get a job in your field of interest and something that translates to a job in the industrial end of the same field. You get experience, 3 hots and a cot, a certain regimentation to your thinking and, in exchange, the VA will help you buy a house.Full disclaimer: I was drafted. As a result, the VA put me through college and helped finance a couple of houses (and refinance this one twice as we chased the interest rate down). My employer put me through grad school (and many have tuition assistance programs) so I never had a student loan.It's going to become an ugly world. People are screaming for income equality but they don't mention 'equal effort'. Do they think it was easy working full time plus overtime, going to school at night for 4 long years (12 months per year, not that wimpy 9 months with summers off thing)? Sure, grad school at night was easy, just 12 months, but damn it was a hard row to hoe for a lot of years. That's effort! If people would put in equal effort, maybe they would have equal results.No, things aren't as good as they were in the carefree '60s. I didn't make much money but my house payment was just $311 for a brand new home. The '60s were excellent - and we had the best bands!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 07:32:20 pm
content: Quote from: metrologist on December 21, 2018, 06:51:40 pmI would tell the kids today to 'man up', get a haircut, and to get along you have to go along. The penguins of Madagascar said it best: "Just smile and wave!".Don't expect your boss, coworkers or even the company to give a rat's patoot about you. You're just trading time for money - it's a form of prostitution, what's to feel good about? If you want to feel good about yourself, do it after work. Get a cat!I'm an engineer, not a psychologist, and I really don't care about the employee's well being. Do the work, don't cause me to go to meetings in HR and we'll get along fine. We won't be friends...

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 08:23:35 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 21, 2018, 07:13:15 pmQuoteQuoteYou need to look at the real changes in economic conditions between then and now before you bring out that "you just need to work harder!" BS. Between 1975 and 2015, in real terms the median income has dropped by 9%, but the cost of education has *increased* by around 150%.You have to work about three times as hard just to pay for college today than you did in 1975.Then there are other increased expenses, like housing.You have to work about 50% harder just to afford housing.How hard do you have to work to afford BOTH? I haven't seen good data on individual health care costs*, but as a share of GDP costs have grown meteorically.*I suspect the data does not exist, and would be difficult to interpret if it does, due to massive changes in the health care landscape and the fact that many people are forced to forego care due to cost.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 08:44:17 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 21, 2018, 07:32:20 pm

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 08:51:10 pm
content: Quote from: Tomorokoshi on December 20, 2018, 03:49:40 pmI think South Park explained the safe space concept very well.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 08:59:54 pm
content: The "cost of education" thing is BS! The in-state tuition for Cal State college is just a touch over $8k per year and for UC, the universities, is just a bit under $15k.The hot setup is to do the first two years at a community college taking transferable courses and this will cost about $50 per unit and the first 2 years is about 60 units or $3000. That's not a lot of money!Even transferring to UC will cost a total of $33,000 for a four year program and there are a lot of grant options. Just $19k total for a Cal State degree.Instead, the snowflakes are maxing their ability to borrow and partying hearty. Worse yet, there are two types of student loans: subsidized and unsubsidized. The subsidized loans are guaranteed by the Federal Government and the interest starts upon graduation. Most students are getting unsubsidized loans and the interest keeps piling up from day one. And the interest rate is high!Our local private university charges $48,000 per year and an engineering degree takes 5 years. This is expensive! I've been told the parking lot looks a lot like a Lexus dealership.The VA also pays for college tuition but I believe it is based on money withheld during an enlistment. Vietnam Era veterans get some amount (mine was on the order of $300/month back in the late '60s) and we didn't contribute to the fund. Not the best way to get a college education but it's being done.Is it easy? No! Is it cheap? Well, arguably, yes! Engineers in Silicon Valley earn around $150k so even UC at $33k as a cost of entry doesn't seem too bad. The private university at $48k per year times 5 years seems a little steep for a job that only pays $150k.One state I admire is Texas. Free, up to 150 hours, of college for Veterans:https://www.tvc.texas.gov/education/hazlewood-act/Yes, they have to buy their own books and cook their own Top Ramen but free tuition is a really nice gesture. The blurb says "Veterans, spouses, and dependent children" - what a sweet deal for the entire family! I don't know any of the details. I don't know if the 150 hours is split up or if the entire family gets a full degree program. I just wish other states were as enlightened.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 09:04:30 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on December 21, 2018, 08:44:17 pmIt's a business, not a social club!

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 09:29:09 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 21, 2018, 09:04:30 pm... and apparently you have been in this business for enough decades to have forgotten about, or worn down, many of the ideals, ambitions, and visions you started out with in your twenties. Yes, some of those ideals were probably a bit naive in hindsight. But does that oblige or entitle you to try and fast-track the wearing down of ideals in the younger generation?(Doesn't matter, actually, since they won't listen to you anyway.)Compared to the 1960s, the workplacehaschanged considerably -- at least in my country, and for all I know in yours as well. Your generation, with its ideals and views of the world, has played a part in that, as has mine afterwards, as will the millennials going forward.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 10:06:28 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on December 21, 2018, 09:29:09 pmOddly, I never had hopes, dreams or ideals. It was a job, no more than that. Jobs come, jobs go, some last longer than others. I worked hard, I was well paid, but I never expected the job to last longer than the end of the week. By my choice, or theirs.I started working in a small machine shop and I really liked it. I was 18. Before my 20th birthday I was drafted and my world view changed. A couple of years after getting out, I had a great job as an electrician while I wandered through college. Over the years, since graduation, I worked for about 7 companies with the last job being around 15 years. I retired and never looked back. I don't get up in the morning thinking "Boy, I should go back to work. It was so much fun!". Every single day was a PITA and intruded on what I really wanted to do - whatever it might be.The idea that my identity was related to my job never occurred to me. It was just work! If it was fun I would have done it for free.If people want to be coddled in their work environment, they should move to a more socially aware country. The US is in business for money, not social causes. I have never worked for a company that had any interest in me as an individual. Do the work, get the check! It was a simple relationship.BTW, as a stockholder, I want the companies to make money.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 10:19:46 pm
content: Quote from: metrologist on December 21, 2018, 06:51:40 pmMy kid may never asks for my advice regarding her work, but she may. I hate walking into such a situation without having thought about it before. Besides, ask or not, I drop occasional comments expecting some day a bell may ring and a comment she may recall suddenly becomes relevant.As I said, the replies have given me more"fruit for thought". I am still letting the many thoughts in my mind cross-pollinate. In this un-gel state. My thoughts are along this theme: Just ask and ask frequent for feed backs. This will also show conscientiousness (and assertiveness) as well as differentiate her from the snow flakes.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 10:21:30 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 21, 2018, 10:06:28 pmNothing personal, but I'm very glad that I've never had a boss with your attitude. I don't need to be coddled, but I do like being treated like a human with some value beyond what I produce. Work doesn't have to be as fun as goofing off with my hobbies but it can't be a miserable drag. I have to spend the majority of my waking hours at work and frankly life is too short to spend it with someone who is angry, bitter and doesn't give a rat's ass about me on a personal level. Run a company with that attitude and you can only expect people to work just hard enough to not get fired while extracting all they can from the company while looking for a better job. Meanwhile companies like Google, Microsoft, Apple, Facebook and countless others will poach your best employees, attract all the top talent coming out of the schools and mop the floor with your company.There is a very wide space between ridiculous coddling and being a complete asshat that nobody wants to work for. Fortunately there are a lot of companies that fall somewhere in the middle. I have an excellent professional relationship with my boss, she treats us well on a personal level and we work hard to deliver the products. We care about the company and people tend to stick around rather than there being a revolving door. A happy team with high morale is a productive team and a productive team leads to profit for the shareholders. That doesn't mean you have to sugar coat everything and never criticize anyone but you don't have to be a dick and treat them like dirt either. Companies that do that deserve to go out of business. Frankly it sounds to me like you had a shitty career focused entirely on making money and now you think everyone else should spend their best years being as miserable as you were. I've seen far too many people spend their careers in misery working towards retirement only to croak or become ill shortly after they finally achieve that. Any one of us could die tomorrow, if anything I wish I'd spent less of my youth focused on work and more of it enjoying being young.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 11:04:28 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 21, 2018, 10:21:30 pmOddly enough, the people working for me liked working for me. They said so, I'm not making it up!We had clear goals, we needed to meet the goals. It didn't much matter how we got to the end as long as we got there on time. I'm the most out-of-the-box engineer around, nothing will stop me from performing on time. I'm the guy they call when is absolutely, positively, must be done on time. I don't spend time schmoozing, I hand out the assignments and monitor the results.I back my workers 100%. Always! If there is a failure to perform, it is MY failure, not theirs. When it comes to the inevitable 'donkey barbeques', I take the heat. I'm also the guy that has to explain why it cost so much! That meeting always occurs AFTER the work is done. Everybody likes the results, nobody wants to pay the bill.I think employees want clear goals and objectives. I think they want to meet those challenges, the more outrageous, the better. If they leave the office mumbling and shaking their head, they'll get it done! Just because it is clearly impossible. They will find a way! I just might not want to look too close at the methods. My boss didn't want to look at mine!It just needs to be a fair and level playing field. It is also necessary to understand that everybody doesn't have the same skillset. It's up to the manager to either accommodate those differences or help improve the skillsets. Improving is better than accommodating.Angry, bitter? Not at all! But I never forgot it was just a job and I was looking for a job when I found this one.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 11:32:02 pm
content: Perhaps you just come off differently here than in person. I'm on board with pretty much everything you said there. None of that is mutually exclusive with enjoying work. By "enjoying" I don't mean it's so much fun that I'd do it for free, but it's pleasant enough that I don't dread rolling out of bed on a weekday morning either.

author: mathsquid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 11:35:56 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 21, 2018, 07:13:15 pmObamacare put me (and a lot of other people) in a much better situation. My insurance through my employer was greatly improved by the ACA. Among other things, the ACA did away with insurance companies imposing lifetime limits on the amount they would pay for an individual's healthcare. That is huge for someone with a chronic illness, or someone who needs a very expensive one-time procedure.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 12:33:39 am
content: Quote from: mathsquid on December 21, 2018, 11:35:56 pmThe 'pre-existing conditions' thing is pretty large around here. So, yes, my HMO has to let me convert from an employer plan to an individual plan but they don't have to make it affordable. Right now, we're covered by an employer plan. In a few months we'll have to see how it works out when we go for some kind of individual play. Something like the MediCare Senior Advantage plan with donut holes the size of Montana.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 12:54:05 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 21, 2018, 07:32:20 pmSounds a bit draconian. I wouldn't argue that the old-school Catholic nun'sruler-on-knucklemotivation tactic wasn't effective for its intended purpose, but that's just not utilized by your big fortune companies nowadays. I'm just saying, you care for your 'tools' even when they are psychological in nature (human)... Hey, I just had lunch with my coworkers to celebrate the holidays and it was fun...I'll agree with ajb on the wage and education data... I checked my silly cone valley education costs and yeah, quite a bit higher since.You seemed to have changed your tack a bit here later, so carry on...

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 01:37:19 am
content: Quote from: metrologist on December 22, 2018, 12:54:05 amSame guy, same attitude - work was never something I enjoyed as in giggles. If they weren't paying me, I wouldn't show up.Why don't I want to know my employees personal details? Well, hypothetically, suppose one employee's wife has cancer, the kids are 'special needs', the car keeps breaking down and they're behind on the mortgage. I don't want to know this because next week I'm going to have to let him go. Or do I save him and lay off somebody whose situation I don't know? Should I just go by seniority and ignore skills? It's not a union shop, I have to choose. The layoff is going to happen, no question about that. How much agony do I want to endure? Or do I just quit and leave the layoff issue to someone else? Not a bad solution, by the way!I ended my career as an individual contributor. I simply didn't fit as a manager of people. I did better as a manager of projects. Let somebody else deal with hiring, firing and performance reviews.Most places I worked were pretty ruthless. Literally, you were only as good as your last time out. And, at one company, you could just about count on layoffs every 13 weeks. The semiconductor business is built around 4 equal 13 week periods rather than calendar quarters. At the end of every period the numbers were reviewed and, working in an overhead function, we were the first to get hit. You watch that kind of thing for 3 years or so and you get the idea that the company is not the least bit concerned about your welfare.Not much changed over my career. Every Friday was your last day, unless it wasn't. Regardless of where I worked!I don't see this changing. Numbers drive a company and when the numbers are down, so is the headcount. The young folks better get prepared for this, it isn't going to change. Nobody was 'special' where I worked.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 02:26:15 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 22, 2018, 01:37:19 amI don't think anybody would show up to work if they weren't paid, at least not for very long. There's a reason they call it "work" and pay you to do it. That doesn't mean it has to be a grueling joyless slog day in and day out. When there's a deadline I put my nose to the grindstone and get it done. If it's a slow day maybe I'll slack off a little and play a few games of pingpong with my teammates or go out and have a beer. The work gets done, the employees are happy, the clients are happy, money keeps coming in and the execs are happy.Why do I want to know them on a personal level? Because I spend more time with my coworkers than I spend with my family and friends, by quite a large amount. One does have to be a bit more careful when it comes to the manager/subordinate thing however finding that balance is part of the job of being a manager and part of the reason the position typically pays more than an individual contributor. Layoffs are never pleasant but a good manager will typically take many things into account when deciding who to let go and who to keep around. I was laid off once by a manager who I knew fairly well out side of work, and you know what? I'm still friends with him, it was a business decision, he didn't let me go because he thought I was a jerk or wasn't pulling my weight, it was because business realities made it necessary.If anything I think this whole discussion is a very good illustration of the fact that the being a good engineer and being a good manager are two rather different skillsets that happen to have some amount of overlap. A typical individual contributor role is maybe 90% technical 10% personal skills, while a good manager is more like 90% personal, 10% technical skills. A good manager will get to know each team member, recognize their strengths and weaknesses, provide feedback and guide them to grow in ways that most benefit the team. Morale is often the difference between someone going the extra mile and doing the bare minimum required to not be the one who gets laid off. Hiring and training a new employee is very expensive process, rapid turnover and brain drain have killed many an organization.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 02:20:56 pm
content: I'll add one more thing to this discuss, I've encountered more poor old employees than I have young ones.It's only been older employees that have spent 30 minutes explaining to me why they don't have time to do a twenty minute task that they are employed to do.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2018, 05:15:58 pm
content: I read through the three (so far) pages of this ... while my opinion is worth what you’re paying for it, here goes.First, the label “millennial,” to describe a part of the population, is purely a marketing term, and is as such no more interesting that “The Greatest Generation,” baby boomers, Gen X, whatever. Using it is a sign of intellectual laziness, as you can’t lump everyone the same age into the same pigeonhole (to mix a metaphor). I could say that “baby boomers are all selfish ‘I got mine, so I’m not going to pay taxes to educate your kid’” and while it’s obvious that there are people who fit that stereotype, it’s equally obvious that many don’t. Such pigeonholing is no more useful than saying that “all people born under the astrological sign Taurus have the same personality type.”Next, “safe spaces” aren’t meant for “coddled millennials” who have never been told anything negative. It grew out of the desire for those who are part of a marginalized population (people who are queer in whatever form, to use the most obvious example) to be able to live where they are not under threat of real, physical violence. If you don’t see that, congratulations — you are a straight person who’s never been faced with that. To dismiss the very real fears of these people is the height of arrogance. These fears range from loss of housing to loss of employment to, yes, physical violence. Just because you don’t see it and don’t live it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.As far as the workplace goes, early in my career I worked at the local bomb factory. I was lucky — I got hired right out of college into an interesting R&D group, and my boss and the department head both believed that part of their job was to mentor the fresh-outs. Other departments weren’t as enlightened. I recall this one manager, whose office was near my group’s area, who spent his days with his door opened, yelling at underlings on his speakerphone. I also recall a conference room that was used for “stand up” meetings. (It had no chairs and no table.) On a regular basis, a parade of people crowded into the room to be yelled at by a manager.After being there for a few years, I noticed something interesting about the employee population. There were always a lot of kids fresh out of college, and there were a lot of middle-to-late-career employees hanging on for the pension. But in the five-to-fifteen-year range, very few. I left after eight years, as I got tired of waiting for raises that never came (that was always above the head of the department), and I also I realized that I didn’t really want to work for a bomb factory. Others told their asshole managers on a Friday, “I won’t be in on Monday, I’ve head enough of your shit.” Others left because they didn’t want to be in the next wave of layoffs. Suffice it to say, for most it was a combination of all of those reasons, and those who could leave, did.As for performance reviews and “Bad bosses” and “Bad employees.” The performance review isnotthe time for the boss to lay out his/her problems with the employee’s performance, and it is not the time for the employee to air grievances and make demands/suggestions. Ideally, the relationship between boss and employee should be friendly, affable and professional. The boss should be confident enough in himself so that tasks can be assigned and the work will get done without constant nudging. The boss should create an environment where employees can say, “this is taking longer than expected” without getting a response other than, “OK, what do you need to move this along?” The employee, too, should not be working as if they feel that there’s a gun to their head because of an arbitrary schedule.In other words, consider it to be an “agile” work environment. The supervisor and the worker are continually evaluating each other and the work, and if necessary changes in schedules, in procedures, in everything are considered and implemented as necessary as the work is progressing. Nobody can wait for a yearly (if that) performance review if problems exist. Above all, the boss should be open to suggestions for the employees about how to improve things, and also actually implement those suggestions, if the group feels they are worth implementing.Performance reviews are basically a ticket-punching opportunity to show attempts at improving manager/worker interaction prior to the employee’s dismissal.Ideally, a supervisor should be surprised when an employee quits. Bad bosses aren’t surprised, nor do they care.So all of that said: What the #metoo and the “Safe space” issues are all about is people saying:“We will not put up with abusive bosses any more.”Anyone who’s worked for other people has seen, or worse worked for, an abusive boss. What is being said is that bad bosses should be removed and not protected, it shouldn’t be on the worker to put up with abuse or quit. That it takes publicity and the threat of lawsuits to remove abusive bosses tells you why such a movement is necessary.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2018, 06:50:06 pm
content: A book somewhat related to the topic:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peopleware:_Productive_Projects_and_Teams

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 01:46:39 am
content: I got to see an old friend of mine who's a college professor over the holidays. He's an early millenial, like I am, and he lectures in the arts (his specialty is a specific area of art history), but he has a lot of STEM and pre-med students in his classes either as double majors or fulfilling their distribution requirements. I asked him what he thought about his current students, as compared to when he and I were in college. A few of his observations:Current students don't have any particular problem taking constructive criticism, but they don't have much patience for criticism that is vague, poorly justified, or otherwise unhelpful to them. As an instructor, he has to be prepared to justify his feedback, and be able to demonstrate that it has a sound basis in the material or the course requirements. He did not seem to see this as a bad thing, as it pushes instructors to provide better and more useful feedback to their students.Current students have a much clearer idea of their goals regarding their education, and what they expect to get out of a course or a program. This means they tend to take a suitably serious approach to the work that is most important to their goals, and they expect that the requirements of courses and assignments will be clear and relatively objective, so that they have a clear set of goals to work towards. In some students this tendency manifests as an overly transactional approach to their education. I think this is a marked difference between early millenials and later/post-millenials--more on this idea below.Grade inflation is a big problem. Instead of having a spectrum of outcomes from A (exceptional), B, C (average), D, and Failing, the current system compresses outcomes to, in effect A (good), B (acceptable), and Failure. This is a deeply systemic problem, and not one that any individual instructor can really effectively fight. It's reinforced by programs that require B or better grades to remain in a program or to keep their funding (scholarships, etc), or to be accepted into subsequent programs. In one case my friend talked about, he has a student who rightfully earned a C, which means they did OK, but not spectacularly. But if he actually enters that grade, the student would get kicked out of their program and lose funding--which is a highly disproportionate consequence to doing average work (at least in my friend's view, he didn't go into all of the details about the situation).I think there's a big difference in general in how early millenials, who graduated before the great recession of 2008, and later millenials have approached higher education. Early millenials like me were told, all through childhood and high school, some combination of "You have to have a college degree--any college degree--if you want to get a good job" and "follow your dreams". We were lead to believe that if we just went to college and studied something we liked, that our career would sort of take care of itself. As a result, a lot of us and our parents took on huge debt loads to got to college just get some sort of degree, but then when we graduated, many of us discovered that the pay we were getting was barely enough to cover the cost of our debt and housing, if we were lucky. We were already stuck between a rock (wages that have been stagnant for decades) and a hard place (the costs of education and housing have steadily gone up for decades), and then the recession hit and everything got even worse.Later millenials (and post-millenials) have had the benefit of seeing what their older siblings and friends have faced after college, and have learned to make different decisions regarding education. In some cases, their decisions were made for them, as their families lost their jobs, houses, and/or health, and could no longer afford to support their college plans. This has been my own observation for awhile, but it's interesting to look at college majors over the last decades, as the data certainly lines up with this observation:STEM degrees, as a percentage of total bachelor's degrees awarded, are the only ones that have increased since 2007. Their share of awarded degrees has nearly doubled!Fine & performing arts and Behavioral and Social Sciences have largely remained steady--these are largely vocational areas, where people feel a calling to pursue them, so it makes sense that they will be largely stable.Education has been steadily declining for 20+ years--that's been hard way to earn a living, and getting harder given how poorly supported our school systems are.Business and Management degrees have declined sharply since 2009--these have largely been catch-all areas for people who just want to get a degree so they can get a good job, so it makes sense that these drop off when the degree==good job myth was shatteredHumanities degrees increased from 1987-1992, then remained steady until 2007, when they began a steady decline to about their pre-1987 levels. If you look at the breakdown within the Humanities, English language & Literature, General Studies, and History have shown the largest declines. These areas are neither strongly professional (like STEM degrees) nor strongly vocational (like the arts/social sciences), so it makes sense that these would lose the most appeal when the true costs and true benefits of a college degree are understood.More info here:https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/06/05/analysis-finds-significant-drop-humanities-majors-gains-liberal-arts-degrees

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 07:46:50 pm
content: Quote from: ajb on January 02, 2019, 01:46:39 amLooking further into the link provided makes the picture murkier. At junior colleges STEM degrees are dropping steadily while humanities are climbing just as steadily. And the breakdown of humanities degrees shown confuses me. The drop in education degrees could be ascribed to the poor economic prospects of graduates, but ignores the fact that teaching for many is a calling, just as the performing arts are. The rise in communications is equally baffling. As far as I know there is no economic pot of gold associated with that degree.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 07:55:06 pm
content: A friend of mine has a degree in communications, he has spent most of his career in sales, mostly selling street lighting and related infrastructure to municipalities. I don't know if his situation is typical but he has generally made a good wage, on par with that of a competent software engineer or experienced EE. It isn't something I would enjoy but he's good at it.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 08:11:57 pm
content: Quote from: ajb on January 02, 2019, 01:46:39 amSeems pretty straightforward: If you kick out all the students with a C or D grade, you won't get any students graduating with a C or D grade.That suggests that the schools and funding bodies would have a rather simple path to solving this "systemic problem"... But of course, once these distorted grade scales have been established, it is difficult to go back. Employers won't consider hiring C students, resulting in strrong social/economic pressure to avoid entering those grades, etc.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 08:13:44 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on January 02, 2019, 08:11:57 pmThat becomes a lot more complicated when you add in grading on a curve, which seems to be popular in the US. No matter how good the students, there will always be C and D students.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 08:17:30 pm
content: This seems to be a widespread problem everywhere, anything less than perfect is seen as failure. I remember seeing something about the driver ratings on Uber, if you give them less that 5 stars it's essentially an unacceptable rating. Personally I consider 3 stars to be acceptable, average, typical, etc and 4 or 5 stars excellent and exemplary, way above and beyond, but that is not how society is going overall. I don't really know how to fix this, but I think a C grade should be seen as acceptable, an A grade should be very hard to achieve, a B should be very good, above average. If we have too many A and B students it creates this situation where anything less is seen as unacceptable.I don't like forced curves, I don't think anyone who does an acceptable job should ever get a D or an F, that just doesn't make sense. If you have a group that are all excellent performers then they should all get excellent grades.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 08:21:36 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 02, 2019, 08:17:30 pmSwitching to an entirely different grading system might help, as would eliminating grading on a curve. Something like a percentage or something equivalent to it seems to work reasonably well elsewhere.Star systems never seem to work. They tend to bunch up at the extremes, with most people giving one star and five star ratings. The average isn't a very representative number, a simple upvote versus downvote system would be much more accurate in that case.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 08:30:19 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 02, 2019, 08:17:30 pmI agree. Quite a few professional ebay sellers send automated messages now which explain that any rating below 5 stars actually means "bad", and causes ebay to penalize them. It's quite absurd...Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 02, 2019, 08:21:36 pmYep. On Amazon etc., I like to filter for the (relatively rare) reviews with two to four stars, which tend to be differentiated, thoughtful and informative.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 08:50:07 pm
content: I almost never give a 5 star review, and only rarely a 1 star review. Even very good products typically have at least a few minor things I don't like which knocks my opinion down a bit. I also tend to put less weight on 1 and 5 star reviews when I'm researching something to buy. Most of the fake reviews are 5 star and most of the idiots who didn't know what they were buying or don't know how to use it properly give 1 star.