heads-up for Deye inverters in Pakistan, USA and UK - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 02:28:01 pm
content: It seems that Deye disables inverters in Pakistan, USA and UK because of local companies with exclusive selling rights. You can read the developing story athttps://solarboi.com/2024/11/17/sol-ark-oem-disables-all-deye-inverters-in-the-us/. Apparently there are also some inverters affected in other countries (collateral damages?).

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 04:19:37 pm
content: So add inverters to the list of products with secret (from the buyer) back doors, cool not

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 04:38:20 pm
content: Quote from: fourtytwo42 on November 26, 2024, 04:19:37 pmWhat did you think? They keep cloud services online for free? Ofcourse not, inverters are perfect hubs for spying on people so the Chinese government pays for the cloud services. One of the reasons I did/do not connect my inverter to internet! And I'd strongly advise to disconnect existing inverters from any online service.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 05:10:31 pm
content: I'm quite confident you are pretty safe by NOT connecting the manufacturer's communication stick (except for initial firmware update maybe), and use a locally owned, locally managed communication product instead - like our boxThis is what I have been trying to suggest to our Finnish sales/install partner customers - that maybe keeping the data only in EU, on Finland-based company, with some serious effort in data security, would be a good idea. But so far our service has been a bit behind in number of different types of data it can query and show from the inverter, statistics, graphs etc., so pretty much everyone is "in love" with the Chinese cloud.But this love comes with the risk, and given the political situation I think it's an unnecessary risk to take. It is one thing to buy Chinese hardware; another to intentionally connect them to the Chinese cloud services and give full access to control the inverters in any way.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2024, 01:18:54 pm
content: I wonder if the EU will pass a law requiring that all products that require the cloud for anything must have a clear disclaimer about it on the packaging or the ordering page. Or even better, make it illegal to require a cloud connection for basic functionality that should not require the cloud.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2024, 04:10:19 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on November 28, 2024, 01:18:54 pmMake it illegal to have the servers outside the EU. Or better: outside the country of the user of the product. I don't know if the news has gotten out to the US yet, but this month a Chinese ship has cut two sea communication cables in European waters. And this isn't the first time the Chinese have damaged / sabotaged infrastructure on the sea floor. The Chinese are certainly probing weaknesses in Europe's infrastructure.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2024, 06:50:38 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 28, 2024, 04:10:19 pmThis is not sufficient: they will just use regional servers (which is probably what they do already). The real question is in ownership, who is in control, and that is much harder to regulate (think about middlemen). One thing to bypass the need of new regulations it is to give people ample information and let them vote with their wallet.--One can argue that the whole dependency on Chinese hardware has been a mistake; if so, the problem is this cannot be easily changed. We have to live with the fact that hybrid inverters come from China, and even the few remaining European brands will have to depend on Chinese components.However, what we totallycanprevent is theinformation/control dependencyover the lifetime of the products. These inverters work just fine under local control, disconnected from the internet, or connected to internet through independent third-party device, like ours.By connecting the inverters into Chinese cloud, customers gain nice graphics (bogus made up data e.g. imaginary "savings" or some stupid "equivalent to trees planted" infographics), and installers gain a tool to remotely troubleshoot. By connecting to third-party device like our box, customers gain smart optimization (especially for battery inverters) which the manufacturer cannot provide. And also some status info through our app (production graphs, live power data), but not as much as the customized-only-for-that-inverter service of the manufacturer. So most installers want to wire up both our box and the Chinese cloud stick.Some value these Chinese cloud opportunities more than others. We get first-hand idea of this from case Solis: unlike other inverters with two separate interfaces, Solis has chosen to double-purpose its sole RS485 port for their own datalogger and external control. Datalogger acts as RS485 master just like our box does, so it's either or, both cannot be connected. Many companies are completely happy to sell our box with Solis, giving up the Solis cloud; they see more value in our box. For others, this is a showstopper; they want the Solis cloud (even when it cannot do energy optimization) so much they are eager to give up the control and optimization opportunities from our box so choose not to sell it. Which I find insane, but that's my biased perspective.But anyway, if we look at the happenings such as Chinese ships sabotaging our energy and communication infrastructure (which is actually a war crime as it aims civilian infrastructure, but let's not worry about such minor details) and our neighbor threatening to nuke us all day long (there is nothing new in that, just that we have started listening), I'm pretty surprised how easily homeowners and PV system install companies are accepting increasing part of our energy infrastructure being under direct control by Chinese companies, like they can just shut down these expensive investments with a simple flip of a switch, and as Deye has demonstrated, will actually use that opportunity willy-nilly; I'm certain Deye has no political motivation but something related to their distribution chains where they have painted themselves into a corner; but they do well demonstrate how this technology can be used for political reasons in the future.So TLDR I'm not too happy about the Chinese dominance to produce goods, but that is inevitable and I have nothing against doing such business; but I think letting them in full control remotely after the ownership has transferred, without very strong reasons to do so, is totally nuts and we should absolutely stop doing thatjust in casebecause the risk vs. benefit factors are very different compared to just buying goods: at least the inverter is of good value, and the risk is mostly us not getting more in the future. Versus the cloud, little tiny bit of added value plus risk of shutting down 'em all any time, for any reason whatsoever.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2024, 11:21:50 am
content: Deye's response (https://heise.de/-10183706, in German) claims that only some inverters in the USA are affected and that the issue is caused by a authorization check which is performed regularly by the firmware. The check is meant to make sure that only UL-certified inverters are sold in the USA.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 01, 2024, 09:10:35 pm
content: Quote from: madires on November 30, 2024, 11:21:50 amThis is actually not that surprising. Solar is a very regulated market and companies can get in huge trouble if their inverters are not locally compliant.Sounds like Deye are just ensuring that only compliant models are operational in the country, and maybe they have been pressured to do this by some local regulatory agency?

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2024, 10:16:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 01, 2024, 09:10:35 pmOnly importers are responsible. Deye would only get in trouble if they operated in USA, UK and Pakistan and sold the non-compliant inverters there. If they do not, they have no reason to stress about this.There are many red flags and unanswered questions, makes the response feel like a made-up excuse similar to the earlier representative's unofficial "they were stolen inverters" which ended up being revealed a lie.Like, if it's an automated periodic check, why it is triggering at the same time, on inverters that have been installed for a year? Why it only triggers if the inverter is connected to Deye's cloud service? How do theyknowthat the inverter is located in USA, UK or Pakistan? From serial number,they can only know that if they sold it themselves to the countries mentioned. In which case they should be taking responsibility for making the device compliant, not destroy it.Also what doesn't add up is how this is not compliant in UK, but is compliant in EU? UKCA is recently forked off from EU CE so still very similar, and if the inverter is compliant in EU it would be pretty weird it isn't in the UK.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2024, 10:38:27 am
content: The approximate location can be figured out by IP geolocation. I agree, some points don't add up.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2024, 10:57:33 am
content: Quote from: madires on December 02, 2024, 10:38:27 amIt's still not proof, people can have all sorts of VPN configurations etc.But of course, bricking devices that are legal property of others is criminal offense anyway, so it does not make much sense to carefully check what you can do or cannot do; because they can't legally do anything, they do illegally what they want, so an explanation which is good enough for the press suffices; it doesn't need to hold water.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2024, 11:20:20 am
content: Quote from: madires on December 02, 2024, 10:38:27 amWith a solar product, they could get a rough idea of location from the solar data, at least longditude