New button battery laws (Australia) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 05:22:07 am
content: Report:https://7news.com.au/news/public-health/new-button-battery-laws-set-to-come-into-place-after-melbourne-mums-campaign-c-7228766

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 05:39:21 am
content: I think in the US secure battery compartments on toys are already a requirement. And most of the cheap Chinese stuff actually follows that from I can tell.I'm not sure why this article focuses on the button batteries. Are other batteries fine without securing them?

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 05:52:34 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 20, 2022, 05:39:21 amButton batteries are more easily swallowed (or shoved up nostrils or in ears), and their design, having a fully exposed anode and cathode smack bang next to each other, means that saliva and assorted bodily juices can cause internal burns due to shorting them out.

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 06:06:52 am
content: Some more detailed information:https://www.productsafety.gov.au/product-safety-laws/safety-standards-bans/mandatory-standards/button-and-coin-batteries#consumer-goods-products-containing-button-coin-batteries-safety-standard

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 06:11:12 am
content: I think the important thing to note here is that it doesn't make any reference to toys - it is basically either consumer products or not. Note sure how this will go for things like computer motherboards. There is also an exemption for soldered down batteries.Edit: also, there is not a lot of information in the legislation other than referencing standard XYZ which you need SAI global for

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 06:22:57 am
content: Quote from: jeremy on June 20, 2022, 06:11:12 amKids young enough to swallow a battery care not where the battery came from, be it a toy, a torch, a remote, or any number of things that could conceivably get into thier destructive little mitts.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 06:25:35 am
content: The only thing I don't like about this is the need for compliance testing. I expect this to be a typical racket by testing labs. I would say a common sense and self certification at the risk of being fined if the product is independently tested and does not pass should be sufficient.

author: Daixiwen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 06:40:31 am
content: You can probably subcontract the compliance testing to kindergartens. See how many babies manage to swallow the batteries after a given time.

author: mairo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 06:51:57 am
content: I wonder if the maker type boards that have such batteries will require to meet certification. One example is the coin cell battery add on board for BBC microbit - these boards are widely used by school kids which although old enough, may have toddler siblings. The parents should make sure it is safe for theirs kids, but what about the manufacturers in this case since the products are also advertised in the STEM education among school kids.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 06:53:18 am
content: Quote from: jeremy on June 20, 2022, 06:11:12 amI think motherboards etc... already comply with the legislation, pursuant to the fact computers (generally) contain a button cell which doesn't "release" (from the product) during "reasonably foreseeable use and misuse conditions" and that the compartment (i.e. the chassis of the product itself) is already "resistant" to being opened by children.For those interested in reading the actual legislation (it's only short):https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2022C00445The main target are consumer products such as toys, remote controls, lights, electronic greeting cards etc... Those sorts of things. I'd also suggest that a computer motherboard is not classed as a "consumer good" as it's generally not purchased by regular consumers. Generally speaking, those who would buy computer components are industry professionals or end-users with some kind of specialised knowledge on how to install and use them.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 07:08:49 am
content: Is this the reason there are so many products out there which have a clip to hold the battery door on, but then add a screw somewhere else? I had always assumed it was more of an engineering 'cock-up', they weren't sure they'd get the plastic clip right first so want the screw just in case (and you can delete an addition to a tool easily enough.)

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 07:13:11 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 20, 2022, 07:08:49 amYes. This is the requirement in the US.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 07:32:01 am
content: How about childproof battery packaging? I think that would make just as much of a difference.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 07:50:51 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 20, 2022, 07:32:01 amBeen there for years. Just try opening one of those#¤%& blister packs.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 08:52:43 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on June 20, 2022, 07:50:51 pmYes, they can often be difficult to open, but the reverse can also be true: I have a multipack of button cells, in which the glue has failed and they've fallen out.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 09:49:21 pm
content: It doesn't seem to apply to the UK, every pack of button cells I've got is a simple cardboard and plastic tray arrangement, which is trivially opened.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 09:57:32 pm
content: It is not trivial to small kids. This is enough of protection. If you have dexterity and persistence to open those packs, you are old enough to not eat batteries.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 12:12:18 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 20, 2022, 09:57:32 pmYou're making some pretty wild assumptions. Some adults are pretty fucking stupid too.

author: Kerlin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 12:24:43 am
content: Quote from: jeremy on June 20, 2022, 06:11:12 amThis unfortunately is the normal case here, you cant get a copy of the standard without contributing.That doesn't help and who does it benefit?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 12:36:51 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 21, 2022, 12:12:18 amBut the law is about child protection as far as I can tell.If *you* are assuming that adults can be as dumb as children, then uh sure, that can be occasionally the case for some people, but from a legal standpoint, adults who act as children and can't be held responsible of what they do should usually be considered vulnerable adults and taken care of properly.Writing laws to protect chidren and targetting adults in disguise, that would be pretty fucked up.Not that I'm really sure what you were exactly on about though.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 01:01:33 am
content: I'm pretty sure that other countries indeed have secure battery compartments, awkward to open packaging, and warning labels. Nothing new, merely a little slow on the uptake..

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 01:08:02 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 21, 2022, 12:36:51 amI was making a joke... kind of....

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 04:27:49 am
content: Not sure if it is part of the new requirements but I just got back from the local Coles supermarket and all of the button cells have been removed from display. I asked a staff member about it and he said they had all been removed and returned to their supplier due to being faulty. I don't think he had any idea and just made up a story as they had a number of different brands on display as can be seen in a picture I posted in aprevious thread.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 04:34:54 am
content: This kind of thing drives me nuts. Actually the thing I hate is when a battery compartment has only a screw to hold it closed, at least when it has a conventional catch alongside the screw I can discard the screw and go on about my business. If there is only a screw I end up either taping it or I have to go dig out a screwdriver whenever I need to mess with it. I think most child-proofing attempts utterly fail. From the time I was maybe 3 or 4 years old I remember opening the child proof stuff for my grandparents. My small nimble hands had no trouble figuring out the tricks that thwarted arthritic seniors. I have no children and I don't want my own life made more difficult because someone else can't be bothered to keep things away from their kids.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 04:43:34 am
content: I figured it was only a matter of time before james_s turned up to complain that his life is unduly hard again.Personally I prefer screws. Screwed on battery covers stay there, rather than working their way to being loose after a while and promptly falling off. But I also don't bury my screwdrivers under concrete or need to constantly 'mess' with battery powered devices.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 05:36:38 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 21, 2022, 04:43:34 amIn a previous decade, I had a problem with a glouclometer (blood sugar checkerer) that only liked one brand of coin cell which had a wafer indent and any other cell with the same number either failed to make contact when the door was closed or prevented to the door from being closed.The diabetes association eventually updated the thing to a later model. But it was a curse there for a while, having to keep a supply of spare good exact batteries just for the one device.As for screwing(!) if they must, I like to see a metal thread not just fastened into the plastic. And if they really want to warm my dead heart, make the screw that it cannot separate itself from the door. And hinge the door.

author: BurningTantalum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 07:44:07 am
content: I work in a primary school and often find these coin cells are littered around. Many items are fitted with them (including BBC MicroBits).I notice in my local store that coin cells are available on the rack that have some form of 'Bitrex' coating, to persuade anyone to spit out the item due to the vile taste. These cells were (3 months ago when I looked) more expensive than the plain tasting ones!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 05:21:18 pm
content: Is there any data showing that helps? Very young children will eat laundry soap, toilet tablets and other vile tasting things if they have access to it, taste does not seem to be much deterrent. Sensible parents will lock up anything like that and keep an eye on their kids. It's common knowledge that very young children will put anything they can find in their mouth and they cannot be left unattended in the presence of anything they could get into.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 05:57:52 pm
content: This article suggests that there are about 3,500 button-battery ingestion events per year in the USA, by children:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8223456/of which around 3% have a "serious" outcome which includes fatalities. The rate is increasing, most likely due to the prevalence of button batteries increasing over time with smaller/lower power devices.Preventing ingestion of these batteries seems like a worthwhile goal if it can be done with a few simple methods, like a screw door instead of a clip. You don't necessarily need data on this point if you can deduce from an engineering analysis you've made it much more difficult for kids to get batteries. Yes, being a good parent is important, but with 56% of cases being unwitnessed, even the best parenting couldn't prevent this.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 06:21:52 pm
content: I'm asking for data on whether making them taste bad (at additional cost) is an effective deterrent.I don't mind the presence of a screw, provided the battery door will still stay closed without the screw. That seems like a win-win situation, people with children can use a screw to secure the battery door, the rest of us can discard it if we choose and have easy access.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 07:33:45 pm
content: I dare say most manufacturers are not going to implement a second retention mechanism because you have a screw phobia.

author: Kerlin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 10:34:29 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 21, 2022, 04:43:34 amI thank him very much for once teaching me that offering technical help is a waste of time.It has helped by stopping me arguing with people who cant read and understand.V V V V

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 10:50:01 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 20, 2022, 07:32:01 amYou haven't bought coin cells in consumer packaging for a while I take it? It's in adult proof packaging nowadays. There's no way you can get at the battery without cutting the (tough PET) packaging off it. The last few times I've had to do it I've had genuine concerns about shorting the cell out with the scissors that I was using to extricate the cell with.Just found an unopened one. That PET film is on both sides of the cell and is heat sealed around the edges.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 11:15:07 pm
content: Whose gonna tell Karen?

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2022, 01:40:22 am
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on June 21, 2022, 11:15:07 pmSorry there isn't any comparison. One is an item that parents should buy in accordance to the age of the kid (the ones for young age kids don't have pieces small enough to be swallowed) and it's the responsability of the parents to always be in supervision when the kid is playing with.The other is a everyday household that if products and package don't account for kids (by using a screw plus a latch for example) can cause serious health problems because it can go unnoticed for a while. A lego piece small enough to me swallow may cause asphyxiation (and it is something you see right away) and if in the stomach doesn't cause the problems a battery cause (although both need extraction from the body) as burns.Regarding James_S and his aversion against screws, I never saw a workbench from a EE that doesn't have a set of precision screwdrivers at an arms length, normally in a nice desk stand, all propped up.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2022, 06:27:50 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on June 21, 2022, 10:50:01 pmYes, those can be difficult to open, but I'm not talking about the single packs. The multipacks of button cells are notorious for spontaneously opening, after being stored for a year or so.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2022, 12:52:01 pm
content: I have had multipacks like the one Zero999 showed.They do fall apart easily with time.In my professional experience, kids will swallow anything and no amount of prevention is perfect. Some adults do pretty stupid things also.The severity of complications of battery indigestion is bad enough to require some sort of packaging safety.This might seem silly, but how about putting them in child proof prescription containers? Perhaps something like that could be made for the different sized batteries?About bad taste: some kids will eat anything regardless of the bad taste, like soap and the really bad one: dishwasher detergent. I do not think this imaginative idea works well enough.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2022, 10:49:54 pm
content: I do support secure battery compartment design, as this is just good product design. Last thing I need is my AG6 cells rolling off under the sofa when I drop my pound store flashy zappy gimmick pen toy thing.As for children eating random stuff, it's been a problem for centuries. I bet even the Romans had laws on child proof amphora lids. Parents, worrying as it is, it's what children do.

author: Geoff-AU
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2022, 04:57:34 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 20, 2022, 09:49:21 pmEnjoy it while it lasts. Here, the batteries are all coming hermetically sealed in very strong plastic. I have to cut the battery out of the plastic in order to use it, very annoying.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2022, 06:11:28 am
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on June 22, 2022, 10:49:54 pmTrue, but people only started really worrying about safety and making laws, as society became a much safer due to technological developments. It seems to be the safer we are, the more we worry about safety and fear danger. We're getting to the point of diminishing returns, where it's doing more harm than good in many cases.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2022, 07:37:57 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 23, 2022, 06:11:28 amI think this is true in a lot of cases, but it is not universally true.The problem is humans are really bad at estimating risks where the consequences are very high but the probability very low. We overcompensate for these - assuming that the event is extremely bad without considering the likelihood.An example is the money spent on the military or on anti-terrorism measures, versus the money spent on healthcare and prevention of early morbidity.