Aaaargh! Lead-free solder rant - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ecowarrior
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2011, 09:56:21 pm
content: Rubbish. That's what it is. Took somebody's advice (on here) and got hold of some leaded solder and boy what a difference. Apart from being way better to solder with, with noticeably tidier results, it's not dissolving the tip of my soldering iron like the lead-free.'what a heap of sh*t', as our leader would probably say....Screw health and safety, full-fat leaded for me from now on. Mmmm.... smell those fumes....

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2011, 10:07:10 pm
content: I don't blame you and the fumes contain such a tiny amount of lead, it's not worth worrying about. Molten solder is at too lower temperature for a significant amount of lead to evaporate. The only hazard with fumes is irritation from the corrosive flux, just don't breath it in too much and you'll be fine.The reason why lead free solder was mandated and lead banned is because it's bad for the environment when electronic equipment is buried in landfill.

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2011, 10:16:53 pm
content: plumbers still get lead solder in the uk i think.besides i hear microsoft blame lead free solder on the problems they had with bga cpu and gpu in the xbox 360same-thing about banning incandescent lamps idiot politician with nothing better to do.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2011, 10:20:19 pm
content: Quote from: Sionyn on March 06, 2011, 10:16:53 pmAre you sure? That doesn't sound right.Lead is definitely still used to repair old roofs though.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2011, 10:33:14 pm
content: The only way of getting lead free solder to work reliably seems to be when all the metals on the chips, the PCB and the solder are all compatable. Get one elevment wrong and you'll have no end of trouble.Quote from: Sionyn on March 06, 2011, 10:16:53 pmIf they do it is only in heating systems. I know that lead has been band in hot and cold water for about 20 odd years. Of course that won't stop them do it.QuoteI wonder if the politician that came up with that has heard that it might very well mean MORE power is used? It is one possiblilty that has been mooted due to the mains harmonics of multiple (and sometimes not very well designed / built) lamps causing heating in the substation switch gear and transformers. Not to mention the fact that they can't be used with timer switches so some lights will be left on all the time thereby adding to light pollution.Neil

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2011, 10:43:15 pm
content: If you really, really must use leadfree, get the stuff with 2% silver and make sure your iron has the balls to cope (e.g. Metcal).However I rarely use it - even for production, who's ever going to notice?Anyone learning to solder should always start on leaded to avoid getting discouraged by poor results, even if they want to use leadfree eventually.

author: RayJones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2011, 10:49:57 pm
content: I'm betting most enthusiasts never throw anything out they built!And yeah LF solder sucks, it simply does not behave as you'd like, every joint looks like a cold joint when it cools.Silver does make the situation better.JBC irons do it for me.

author: DaveW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2011, 11:26:36 pm
content: It's horrible stuff to work with, we've tried ESS'ing LF joints at work and had really high failure rates, on the order of 30% compared to 0.01% for leaded.If you do use it, the silver LF is much better than the rest, and opposite to leaded solder, make sure to clean the tip of your iron after soldering. And as has been pointed out, for actually soldering the fluxes for LF are far worse for you than the flux and lead in leaded solder!Hopefully there'll still be plenty of leaded solder around for the hobbyist market for a while, there's talk that the 10 year exemption may be renewed for another 5 years at least, should keep plenty of it floating around

author: eliocor
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2011, 12:28:16 am
content: Lots of years I'm using lead free solder and I got no troubles at all.I can understand it is easier using the old lead-tin solder, but if you are using good soldering tools (Weller) and good solder (Kester) your results are warranted!!If soldering by hand, I also suggest to use lots of flux: IIRC the one I'm using is Cookson Alpha NR215

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2011, 12:50:51 am
content: If I remember my history correctly wasn't the lead content increased in solder to combat tin whiskering?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2011, 06:52:52 am
content: Quote from: Neilm on March 06, 2011, 10:33:14 pmI never got that thing about not putting them in timers etc. I think another blanket rule made by someone who does not know what they are talking about and assumed that as they won't workon dimmers they cannot work off another other "controller" device. I timer is a switch, what do you think you turn it on and off with normally ?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2011, 08:06:24 am
content: Political peoples do not always understand what they are doing if they handle technical things. There are lot of things what cross affect each others sometimes very complex. They have make lot of bad things just becouse they do not understand nearly anything but nice small talking. (we have lot of examples in chemical, nuclear, power etc things... just as bad science how they argument what decisions they "need" do. Some studies they hide and some studies they make "big noise") In aviation, space, railways, communication, etc where need some reliability... lot of problems (and risks) just example as... last big stupidity are there "bio"fuels for trafic... E10 etc... my god. No any advantage for enviroment but lot lot of problems and secreted studies and just more bad for nature and so..)About soldering and also surface metal materials... many hidden problems are growing. Example "tin whiskers" problem have know around 1940... but still we have sometibes sudden fails and many times nobody know what may be real reason. Now this lead free is also making this situation more bad. (but equipments lifetime is also going more and more short by other reasons... you can not find normal electronic "stuff" what have designed for more than 20y lifetime. Before years example HP do these, also Tektronix. Today nearly all is "short lifecycle" products and this situation littlebit hide this one metallurgic growing problem.Study can start here. NASA have lot of materials also for this "metal whisker" problem. One of these is "tin whisker" problem.(lead is one metal what littlebit reduce this problem)I have see this problem many times. Not everywhere but sometimes. Just some time ago there was machine that fails and very difficult to find problem... before I open one hermetically sealed metalcan (XTAL Oscillator). This tima I have be littlebit careful becouse some signs make me thinking this posibilty for fail mechanism. I open this can carefully and also I have microscope ready to look before do anything else. Firs I see only clean things... then, just small light to my eyes as I mofe light source and there it is... around 2,5mm long and maybe 3-4um tin(?) whisker... it have grow between PCB inside to metal can... then I find more these around there... good luck.. I remove these mechanically and air pressure and... after this it work just as new. (this time no any damage)Simple introduction to this "tin whisker" problem:http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/selvaduray/page/recent/TinWhiskers.pdfhttp://www.aciusa.org/lfpdf/lfjournal/VERDI.pdf(yes do not afraid in aeroplane (they know this problem in aviation electronics and do lot of care about this problem - also in nuclear power plant electronics, and missiles... etc))Littlebit more deep...NASA:http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/reference/reference.htmlyes we really need Pb free tin??Easy you can find lot of material, also highend scientific if you search "tin whisker" etcAlso problem is not only tin, also there are this kind of problems with some other metals in some cases.But this is fast growing problem... also becouse dimensions are going more and more small... old fashion may have 5mm distange... today many times no more than 0,1mm etc...Feel safe (if this happend inside some place where need high reliability for peoples safe) These fine things are metal and they can carry enough current for total fail. Sometimes fail maybe very strange and sometimes nobody never find what happend... just some mysterious things... more fun... fail can also happend and next time equipment work agen just normally. There are lot of equipments what may be danger... in hospitals, in trafic, in military.. communication...

author: TheWelly888
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2011, 09:00:20 am
content: Medical and Military electronic equipment are exempt from Lead Free soldering.Electronics only accounted for 2% of the total world lead consumption so why all that palaver?

author: flolic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2011, 09:16:49 am
content: Quote from: Sionyn on March 06, 2011, 10:16:53 pmYes, that's true. LF solder is rubbish, especially if used on a bad designed product as xbox 360 is.From experience, almost every one xbox 360 will fail within two or three years because of cracked connections under (GPU) BGA package.I repair xboxes on a daily basis, reballing GPU chips with leaded solder balls. So far, those repaired works fine

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2011, 10:48:15 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on March 07, 2011, 08:06:24 amI would say we do until we sort this out (as other members pointed out):http://computersforcharity.webs.com/e-waste.jpghttp://www.4ecotips.com/eco/images2010/E-waste_recycling_2.jpghttp://artsyspot.com/img/weird/e-waste/e-waste15.jpghttp://boingboing.net/images/e-waste-landscape_06.jpgAnd for those still sceptical about CFLs/LEDs, have a look at a study from Osram for the entire lifecycle. Osram does all 3 products so they have little to gain in creating false info. Well, maybe a little gain from future strategy alignment.http://www.osram-os.com/osram_os/EN/About_Us/We_shape_the_future_of_light/Our_obligation/LED_life-cycle_assessment/OSRAM_LED_LCA_Summary_November_2009.pdfI thought all modern CFLs had power factor correction?

author: the_raptor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2011, 12:07:49 pm
content: I just bought a amateur radio transceiver off eBay that was made in the early 80's (about the time I was born). Plenty of 70's and 80's radios are still in use today and tend to be "retired" due to mechanical wear rather than electronic failure.The lead free stuff will be lucky to be functional in ten years from tin whiskers (which is better from the manufacturers view point) shorting those tiny surface mount pin gaps.The solution to nasty compounds in electronics was a proper recycling program, not banning "naughty" but incredibly useful chemicals.

author: jahonen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2011, 01:22:58 pm
content: Quote from: Alex on March 07, 2011, 10:48:15 amI think that lifetime of those led lamps is unrealistic, not because of the leds but because of supporting electronics, particulary electrolytic capacitors in them. Even very best of them have lifetimes around 10000h, and I doubt that they will use those in such high-volume cost sensitive applications.But manufacturers seem still to take life estimate of LED in ideal conditions directly as life estimate of final product, which obviously can't be true.Regards,Janne

author: orbiter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2011, 02:02:03 pm
content: I'm tempted to go out and buy some more leaded solder now after reading all these posts, but to be quite honest I'm used to using the LF stuff now.As mentioned previously though, I also won't use anything that has not got silver in it. At present I'm using solder with a 4% silver content, and to be honest, apart from the higher temperatures that must be used, the stuff is actually ok to work with. Much better than standard LF stuff, and it actually looks pretty good once set too.Does silver in the solder have a beneficial effect on the longevity of a LF joint?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2011, 07:47:28 pm
content: Quote from: DaveW on March 06, 2011, 11:26:36 pmIt will always be available for exempt applications.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 06, 2011, 10:43:15 pmUnfortunately schools and colleges will use lead free solder.Quote from: TheWelly888 on March 07, 2011, 09:00:20 amThe highest usage is in batteries but they're mostly recycled. On the other hand electronics are mostly not recycled.Quote from: Alex on March 07, 2011, 10:48:15 amI've never seen a CFL with power factor correction.SMPSes under 100VA don't need to have power factor correction.In my opinion more energy would be saved if all lighting was DC. A larger high efficiency SMPS with power factor correction could be used to power all the lighting in the house or office. Unfortunately I know it's not practical due to the cost of installing such a system which would be incompatible with existing lighting, although I don't see why the same wiring couldn't be used.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2011, 07:53:22 pm
content: Ah, Nikola and Edison married. I love it.There are more chances of this happening with leds i reckon.

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2011, 08:06:26 pm
content: agreed with power factor correctionthose bloody clfs gave one hell of a fright today a cap from its basalt went bang pretty loud tooruined my relaxing bath after gorge walking (bit like daves cannoning)teach me buying those 20 pence clfs from tesco

author: ecowarrior
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2011, 08:20:11 pm
content: The LF solder I was using was of the Silver variety - from Maplins. Might as well have been acid for what it was doing to my iron tips.This leaded solder I've got now is thinner, much easier to work with (melts quicker) and gives a much tidier joint as a result. I think I'll stock-pile some leaded solder while I still can!!!As for those tin-whisker things, well that's enough to cause me sleepless nights now thinking about what might become of my previous circuits I've built!!!

author: VIPR
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2011, 08:40:17 pm
content: Quote from: ecowarrior on March 07, 2011, 08:20:11 pmYou might want to look into getting some tips that are designed to be used with LF solder. The tin and flux that is used in LF solder is can be very corrosive when kept at the higher temperatures needed for soldering with LF. Keeping the tip clean is also more important when using LF solder. Also, the higher the silver content of the LF solder the lower the temperature needed for melting point and thus better flow.Keep away from the radio shack tips as they are complete crap and will dissolve before your eyes when in use.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2011, 08:54:00 pm
content: Quote from: Alex on March 07, 2011, 07:53:22 pmThat depends.Fluorescents would be more efficient with higher voltage DC, if 240VDC were used then no boost converter would be required, just an inverter to deliver AC to the tube. LEDs of course would be better on 24V to 48VDC.Come to think of it, nowadays, DC could easily be used for all domestic power but it isn't worth changing - we're too locked into AC.

author: ecowarrior
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2011, 08:58:58 am
content: Quote from: VIPR on March 07, 2011, 08:40:17 pmThese are the Weller MT-1 tips I'm using - the Weller SP25L iron I've got seems pretty limited in terms of the tips it can use. I suspect that in time when I've got a bit more experience I'll spend a bit of money on a decent iron but for now I'm stuck with it.And to be honest, just so long as I can get hold of leaded solder (good old ebay!) it works just fine.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2011, 02:41:11 pm
content: There's no need to stockpile kilometers of leaded solder - at least no yet.All major distributors and manufacturers (at least the ones I have contact to: Felder, Stannol, Alpha Metals) can still supply plenty of leaded solder.As a rough guess I'd say I sell about 10x more good old 60/40 than LF, nobody wants the stuff.David

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2011, 05:07:29 pm
content: Quote from: david77 on March 09, 2011, 02:41:11 pmIt could be a hobby! Solder collector.

author: masterburner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2011, 06:27:02 pm
content: God, yes. I hate lead-free solder. I need to heat my iron to near-hell like temperatures to get the stuff to flow properly (no, it's not a flux issue...).The joints always look they'll crack with the least amount of stress. I don't like it. I always buy leaded solder over at my local electronics shop. It seems to be more expensive then lead-free solder, though. But I don't care. I'm just a hobbyist, I don't need a RoHS sticker on my LED cube...

author: VIPR
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2011, 07:11:48 pm
content: Quote from: Lance on March 09, 2011, 05:07:29 pmNo, not a hobby. Best to think of it as an investment. Just think, in 10-15 years or so when all the uber treehuggers out there force the solder manufacturers to stop making the leaded stuff then your lead solder will turn to gold almost overnight (okay, possibly a slight exaggeration on my). Think black market and the cost of wanted items when they can't be had in the stores or online anymore. People love their lead solder and will likely pay fairly high prices to get some one day when the stop making.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2011, 09:03:07 pm
content: Unleaded more expensive than leaded? Here it's the other way round. The LF stuff is nearly twice as expensive than the 60/40. The "good" leadfree with 4% silver, that is.

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2011, 11:40:20 pm
content: Quote from: VIPR on March 09, 2011, 07:11:48 pmDamn treehuggers. They always ruin everything.

author: glossywhite
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 11:30:01 pm
content: Quote from: flolic on March 07, 2011, 09:16:49 amI concur; my friend runs a PC repair business, and just shelled out £1,500+ for a BGA rework station (IR) and leaded is the ONLY feasible way to ensure these crappy HP+Nvidia laptops don't fall apart again. He just fixed mine, working a treat, and immeasurably more reliable than just reflowing with a hot air gun & hoping for the best.