Why do digital multimeters not have zero-blanking? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 12:53:17 am
content: Why do digital multimeters not have zero-blanking?I was taught math, you added a leading zero if |ABS| less than one. Otherwise, no leading zeros.I absolutely hate seeing multiple useless zeros displayedand realized it's confusing and dangerous- as Dave also commented i.e. -0 989.3840 VDC on the Agilent/Keysight.I expect the decimal point one digit to the right of the leading zero.Observe this on all makes now. It better not be some cursed DIN standard on how to display a number.I know Europe is different using comma verses decimal point in North America, and meters allow you to select the format.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 01:50:20 am
content: It's because idiocy is contagious. It only takes one idiot to do it wrong and everyone thinks, "Oh, we should do that too!" -- and before you know it the wrong way has become the "right" way.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 02:45:07 am
content: I cannot see how they can justify it. It is simply pointless and is more that you have to look at for no good reason.In fact, I would call it a BAD move for the following reason:When I see a leading zero, I look for a decimal point immediately to the right of it. With this idiocy (good word, IanB) I now have multiple zeroes to examine -OR- I have to IGNORE it/them altogether if there is a non zero value to the left of the decimal. It is a lot easier to ignore if it has already been blanked!When you consider how much effort has been - and still is being - put into blanking out leading zeroes in computer displays and print outs, for the purpose of clarity in reading, then this move is simply indefensible.If I had a bench meter - I would certainly not want to see such a display - and I would be turning everything upside down to find out how to restore proper blanking.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 02:53:58 am
content: I’ve never really been a fan of leading zeros and also find it a distraction on some meters, one thing I will say in its favour though particularly on older gear is at least it indicates that the area or segment of the display is working correctly and ready to tick over if required, probably more important on older LED, LCD and VFD displays.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 02:56:51 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on August 14, 2017, 02:49:58 amI did consider that view - and while I can't say I've ever heard of a problem, I cannot dismiss this entirely.However - for LCD displays and the like, it just isn't an argument.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 03:01:44 am
content: Sorry Brumby, you happened to have quoted my slightly earlier post which I replaced to include a reference to LCDs, referring to meters like the HP pictured below as opposed to that more modern stuff.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 04:57:10 am
content: Historic reasons: Back in the days of dumb SSI and even discrete logic, leading zero blanking cost gates and thus money. It was compounded by range switching that simply had an auxiliary contact to select one of the decimal points to feed power to to light it. The logic typically didn't even 'know' which d.p. was lit, so it would have required a lot of extra circuitry to blank all except the zero in front of the active d.p.Newer meters after MCUs came into use in test equipment could have added leading zero blanking, but there was of course a tendency to retain the look & feel the customer base was already familliar and happy with. Now its got over 60 years of tradition behind it, its unlikely to change . . .

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 08:22:19 am
content: It is actually only problem with autoranging unit. If it would be manual selection, you would know at which magnitude you are seeing on the display.Atleast it gives a quick way to see if the number is in % or in PPM region of the scale.

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 08:52:32 am
content: What ? I never realized that !I simply dont mind leading zeros.

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 09:16:23 am
content: Because doing otherwise (blanking leading zeros) would give you a false impression of the accuracy.With all the leading zeros you can always see, if your DMM is switched to a reasonable range - if there are too many, you're using the wrong range.I must admit, the HPAK Multimeter on your first pic (with the space separator between the first zero and the significant digits) does look wrong, and indeed - it is wrong: An "old style" DMM would suppress this first leading zero on the 1000V range, since they could only display a "1" or a "-" in the first digit, not a "0"."Computerized" displays lead to all kinds of stupidity in terms of displaying measured values. Worst to see are the ones that treat everything as a float and display e.g. a room temperature reading with 5 digits after the decimal point - no joke, you can see such stupidity quite often in PC based software written by coders that do not know the usage of resolution and accuracy.So, I'd always prefer a constant amount of displayed (or blanked but still kind of visible as seen in many modern multimeters having discrete LCD / LED displays) digits respresenting the actual resolution of the displayed value.BTW.Though beeing an European and beeing taught "," as the decimal separator, I do consider "." as _the only valid_ decimal seperator in science and technical issues, so any scientific or technical application displaying a "," gets cursed by me.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 09:19:16 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on August 14, 2017, 04:57:10 amAs an aside, some of the early discrete logic Datrons had NO leading zeros, a bit disconcerting. Luckily it could be fixed with a few track cuts and straps (no extra gates in this case). Even more disconcerting was their habit of completely blanking the display on overrange!

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 11:10:33 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on August 14, 2017, 12:53:17 amI hate them as well, I'd almost prefer a display flicking between 1 kHz and 1.008 kHz.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1274555/#msg1274555

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 12:35:01 pm
content: History or not, it's not how I write numbers - so I would prefer to read them the same way.As for blanking - I clearly remember layout out a numeric display PCB in 1975 using 7400 TTL - and routing the ripple blanking in and out....Whatever the reasoning, I still don't like it.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 12:44:50 pm
content: I don't understand what you guys are on about.My Fluke 179 blanks the leading zeroes, and IIRC, my previous multimeters did as well.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 01:21:22 pm
content: I fully agree, displaying redundant leading zeros on non-vintage meters is ignorance. For example, some displays or fonts got tiny dots and a leading zero would help to indicate the dot. If multiple leading zeros are just for bragging, we'll see 3-1/2 digit DMMs with 8-1/2 displays soon

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 01:29:56 pm
content: No excuse even on the vintage meters. It's not exactly as if ripple blanking isn't easy or common even going back 40 years!

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 04:08:11 pm
content: My ChemE university professor yelled at the class "not only are you engineering students illiterate, you are alsoinnumerate!"Basic Math and Pre-Algebra Workbook For Dummies:"... when a 0 isn't to the right of any nonzero digit, it's a leading zero. Leading zero's are unnecessary and can be removed from a number."The Chicago Guide to Writing about Numbers: the leading zeros are insignificant, they serve no purpose.It's not historical -hardware supported ripple-blanking, even back in the 1970's when logic gates were precious. Example theICL7135 4-1/2 digit A/Dwith SN7447 etc.It seems to be a marketing thing. Wooo all those zeros, must be very accurate.

author: Rolo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 04:21:03 pm
content: I wondered about this also, long time my only meter was a Fluke. When a second meter came I noticed the leading zeros. It does not bother me much but supressing them does make the readout cleaner.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 04:29:40 pm
content: Reminds me of an ancient episode of the Superman TV series with George Reeves. An outcast alien from Mars, with the diminutive identity of Zero Zero Zero Minus One.Sounds like he started it.

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 04:52:38 pm
content: I would agree that multiple leading zeros are unnecessary and misleading. Nobody would say that "this car costs $15000 and it requires fuel at $00001 cost per litre". DMMs are designed by engineers - they should know about basic math rules and number representation.Occasionally I would use extra leading zeros in case of alphanumerical sorting problems (so that "1 book", "10 books" would be changed to "0001 book", "0010 books"). Otherwise it is not very useful.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 05:02:15 pm
content: In the case of Keysight and Keithley, reputable and experienced equipment manufacturers over many, many years, the only reason I see is bragging rights: "look, how many digits I've got!"

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 05:03:39 pm
content: I hate leading zeros. (In my "pimp my cheap lab PSU" project, I want to pad with spaces, i.e. decimal aligned. Sadly annoying to do with arduino.)

author: Rbastler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 05:06:09 pm
content: I guess marketing happend and the engineers/programmers, had to play along.

author: Retep
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 05:20:39 pm
content: Some meters do blank the leading zeros, including the one on the left of the decimal point:I do prefer the way Fluke handles the leading zero's however.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 05:21:16 pm
content: Quote from: Rbastler on August 14, 2017, 05:06:09 pmI doubt marketing had as much to do with it as some engineering decision early on. Once a company established a preference either way, they stuck with it.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 05:58:53 pm
content: The leading zeros are annoying and when I asked Keysight a while back, they did not even have a good answer for me.But, what is even more annoying is that the modern Keithley DMM7510, 2450SMU and so on, do not have a 1000 separation. At least Keysight has implemented this correctly on the 34470A and others.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 06:59:47 pm
content: Just confirmed, two thurlby Thandar power supplies (ts3022/pl310) and a 1705 DMM do not have leading zeros. Well done

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 07:14:58 pm
content: The International System of Units (SI) and ISO 80000 seem to have not defined it, all I find is:5.3.4 Formatting numbers, and the decimal marker"... If the number is between +1 and -1, then the decimal marker is always preceded by a zero."Fired off an email toInternational Bureau of Weights and Measuresexpect to hear nothing as a small fish in the world of committees.NIST Special Publication 330they follow SI too.It's all kind of hilarious.I could book a trip to Geneva to protest.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 09:36:12 pm
content: QuoteI expect it should read:"... If the number is between +1 and -1, then the decimal marker is always preceded by a zero."So what's your problem with this?To me it makes perfect sense. Unless you think that .987 is the right way, of course.I'd always use 0.987

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 10:08:43 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on August 14, 2017, 09:36:12 pmTypo, cut/paste changed "-" to "?". One leading zero is A-OK no problem.It's the double-0 crap I can't stand, damn James Bond

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 06:12:58 am
content: My Thurlby 1503 suppresses some zeros but not others.Code:.000.0. 00.000.0. 00Basically, its zero reading is 00 and the range switches just move the decimal point.Thinking about it now, this actually looks quite odd, but I've always found this meter quite easy to use so no issue for me.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 06:30:18 am
content: This reminds me of some "genius" at work who decided to create their own "asset labels" using a regular label maker and stuck them on absolutelyeverything, rather just recording the corporate-provided asset numbers on the important (valuable) stuff and/or model/serial/part numbers of equipment.Next time I went to use the paper shredder, that person had stuck a 30cm long tape label (I'm not exaggerating) with "Asset # 000000000123456789" on it.

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 06:32:09 am
content: once you use a instrument for a while its nice to be able to instantly tel what the fuck its doing based on the display (how its set etc).zero blanking seems fucking annoyingthe 3455a seems bad too, nice to have higher confidence (easier to see the zero rather then just the decimal), not to mention a bunch of segments need to break rather then 1 segment to cause a error reading

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 07:29:38 am
content: Leading zeros are not misleading... All they tell you is that you that you are losing bits in your A/D conversion. Blanking leading zeros makes sense for low digit counts (like 3.5 digits). For high resolution devices it solves the question of how to display both the reading and the range at the same time.As an example, if one were to measure using a 6 digit DMM and get a reading of 000.0158V one knows one should re-range the DMM. It could have blanked leading zeros or even converted to 15.8mV - but at that point one would have to deduce (using reasoning) that we are getting only 3 digits of dynamic range out of 6 possible digits. With leading zeros - this becomes plainly evident.For some devices knowing where you are in the range is extremely important - a great example of this of the inaccuracy of the HP34401A at low (under 20% or range) AC volts reading. For the 34401A on ACV, a few leading zeros and one needs to exercise caution....

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 07:56:13 am
content: Quote from: Assafl on August 15, 2017, 07:29:38 amYes. I think the main reason is so you immediately see that you are running way below full scale. You might not realise you are on the 1000V range when you are reading a 10V reference on some of the 7 1/7 or 8 1/2 meters. These meters often have many different modes with different levels of precision and so it is not at all obvious without the leading zeros.If you are reading near full scale, the problem disappears as you are using all the digits. It is only an aesthetic problem if you are reading way below full scale and the makers of these meters are favouring clarity over aesthetics.The main clue to this is that if you have a 7 1/2 digit meter and you are running it in a high speed mode that only gives 4 digits of resolution (if it has one), they do not show all 8 digits. They only show 4 digits.

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 07:59:38 am
content: The very first high resolution voltmeters, having a digital display, and originating from the early 1960ties, were these DVMs, Differential Volt Meters, like the Fluke 803 (from 1962, see picture), 883, and so forth, and calibrators like the Fluke 332A, 335A, HP 3420A and similar.As they were operating mechanically, zero blanking was of course not possible, see picture of a 332B.I assume, that this habit was simply taken over to the later true digital operating voltmeters and calibrators, until today.Meters for analog units (V, A, Ohm) have fixed ranges, usually 5 per mode, and their resolution is usually fixed, e.g. 4 1/2 .. 8 1/2 digits.Frequency and time counters in contrast, do not have such fixed ranges. The result is displayed in a 'floating' engineering or scientific format with exponents, so that trailing zeros do not exist. The number of digits is varying, and determined by the gate time of these counters, though.Due to these differences, the display formatting was always done differently, over the history of these instruments.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 08:00:30 am
content: I don't think anyone can claim they aremisleading- just that they are an impediment to quick recognition.At least they are to me.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 12:45:34 pm
content: Quote from: amspire on August 15, 2017, 07:56:13 amThis is a really good point.From a usability standpoint, though, there's lots of merit in the quick recognition aspect of zero blanking.But honestly, it doesn't have to be either/or. For example, Keithley bench meters with VFDs (other brands as well, maybe?) already use dimmed digits in their menus. Why not dim the leading zeros, so they're there, yet quickly identifiable as being zeros at a glance?In general, I wish there was a bit more attention given to the fast readability of numeric displays. In this regard, I really like the font that Rohde+Schwarz uses on its recent LCD devices. But also, I'd love to see larger displays, period. With modern display tech, this can't be that hard.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 01:16:48 pm
content: Quote from: Assafl on August 15, 2017, 07:29:38 amNow that you explain it that way, it makes a lot of sense.Next time I see such a display, although it still be annoying, at least I will understand the information the DMM is trying to present me.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 01:27:59 pm
content: I'm afraid that if a "999.999" max. display was only showing " 15.8" mV I wouldn't need all the extra zeros to know it's only using a small part of the resolution.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 01:34:06 pm
content: I found a solution, no need to thank me, it's what I do.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 03:05:10 pm
content: You would think in this modern era,someonecould put an option in a setup menusomewherewhere you can select what you want..

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 05:27:58 pm
content: Just like you would think an option to select the colors of an oscilloscope's traces would be easy, but no. Most of them stick you with strange colors like yellow and pink.

author: Retep
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 05:43:22 pm
content: One reason I can think of for not blanking the leading zeros is so you can see when a digit is not working. How misleading a non-working digit can be can be seen in this video:.Having a non-working digit is not that unlikely with older equipment, however with modern (bitmapped) displays this should be a non-issue.In the case of the HP 3455A meter I posted previously, I really wonder why HP decided to suppress the leading zero just before the decimal point. It doesn't seem to be a technical limitation since there is a digit available directly at left of the decimal point and the unit is microprocessor controlled.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 05:53:55 pm
content: - To make sure the most significant digits are working, so you won't read30.000 Vacinstead of230.000 Vacbecause of a faulty digit.- To easily approximate the expected range/resolution

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 06:04:05 pm
content: Quote from: Retep on August 15, 2017, 05:43:22 pmThey could have added a display test at power-on

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 06:36:57 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on August 15, 2017, 05:53:55 pmOn a quick glance830.000 Vacoften looks like030.000 Vac.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 06:47:08 pm
content: The origins of leading zero blanking lie with LED calculator displays, where displaying 00000025 used four times as much battery current as displaying 25.There weren't that many LED DVMs, and they mostly were 1999 displays anyway. So it probably didn't matter so much there.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 08:41:25 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on August 15, 2017, 06:36:57 pm"Life is hard, and then we dye."

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 10:47:37 pm
content: I find the extraneous leading zeroes disturbing, especially on professional-grade equipment. They increase the cognitive load when reading a value on the display, which is not desirable on a technical instrument. Although there are many seemingly plausible hypotheses as to why the practice persists, I don't find them to be all that compelling and they've mostly been debunked in this thread.Unnecessary leading zeroes seem to me to be more a case ofThe Pot Roast Principle. Keysight's response when queried about their inclusion of extraneous zeroes tends to support the notion.Unfortunately, adding options or breaking the status quo takes time, time costs money, and companies tend not to spend either unless (they believe) it will make them more money.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 11:00:30 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 15, 2017, 10:47:37 pmIsn't that a sort of generalization of the concept ofcargo-cult programming?Where is a Keysight statement on this matter? I don't see anything in this thread.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 11:38:06 pm
content: Yeah, they do sound like related concepts.Regarding Keysight, I was referring to the response High Voltage received (see Reply #26).

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2017, 12:47:07 am
content: People can be so liberal with their hatred of things. I'll save my hatred for more important issues.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2017, 01:40:59 am
content: Perhaps they feel that zero shows the device is working properly and showing a null value- but no indication of anything indicates the equipment is malfunctioning or its battery is dead-

author: PointyOintment
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2017, 10:43:06 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on August 15, 2017, 06:36:57 pmSuggestion: underscores. For example: _30. That way there's no way you can mix up 30, 230, and 830 unless you have a partial digit failure.This still doesn't solve, e.g., 1130 vs 130 on a 3.5-digit meter, because the half-digit can't display an underscore, but those are at least both somewhat dangerous voltages.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 12:51:07 pm
content: Again, what about my suggestion of dimming the leading zeros? That would show that the digits are working, but make it clearly different at a glance from the mantissa.And on units without the ability to drive grayscale, how about using a small "o" for leading zeros, so that it looks like o30.000?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 02:37:41 pm
content: IMHO underscores or 'o's are as bad as leading zeros. If you want users to see if the display is working add a lamp test. That could be done when powering on or via a lamp test button / menu function. Very simple and effective. UIs should be simple and intuitive, not overloaded with things that bewilder the user. Despite scientists researching UIs some vendors ignore very basic recommendations and totally screw up the UI of their devices.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 02:47:49 pm
content: A zero reading should show as 0, 0.0, 0.00, 0.000 etc.Having to look though a row of leading 0s to check any aren't an '8' or if the DP has moved along them is afault/fwbug.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 05:04:41 pm
content: Quote from: madires on August 24, 2017, 02:37:41 pmAs others explained, display failure isn't the primary reason for that. It's that leading zeros do give an indication of what range you're in. By leaving them, but reducing them to a visible placeholder, you get the advantages of leading zeros AND the advantages of zero blanking.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 05:27:30 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on August 15, 2017, 03:05:10 pmThat seems like the worst possible solution. Useless settings are the worst UI/UX decision that any product can make. They clutter the configuration menus making it more annoying to change settings that matter and they make the behavior inconsistent with almost no benefit. Like if we have 3 of the same meter in the lab, and someone converted one of them to use zero blanking, that would be really annoying. Or, if one of the people on this thread who thinks this is a *MAJOR ISSUE* (which it is categorically not), came by and helpfully turned on zero blanking for a meter I frequently use, that would just lead to extra confusion.Zero blanking is a minor issue. I can see some minor benefits to both options, and I might have a slight preference for blanking, but it is absolutely not worth making it a configuration option. I think the term for what is going on here is not the pot roast principle or cargo cult engineering, but bike shedding.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 05:36:44 pm
content: HPAK does not use leading zeros in all their gear.Quote from: ejeffrey on August 24, 2017, 05:27:30 pmI disagree as there are good reasons for both approaches. In labs where gear from many manufacturers are stacked, the lack of consistency causes confusion.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 05:56:32 pm
content: It seems to be only about readability, as it has no effect on precision.You would not find aircraft instrumentation doing this, although Gerber files can have them (leading zeros) lol.I need to know ASAP if the voltage measurement is hazardous and after waiting for an autorange, I then have to rummage through extra useless characters, find the decimal dot and if the reading is moving around it's even harder to know WTF voltage is present.It appears to be part of "good practice" and an omission from the SI. I am still working through them for an answer.They define everything else, our V, A, ohms etc. electrical units, the spacing and the standards.Underscores and the negative sign might be confusing/similar i.e. -02.34 vs -_2.34 ?Since some multimeters are 4,000 or 6,000 or 10,000 count I think it's misleading in that 00.00 could go to 39.99 or 59.99 or 99.99 before moving the decimal place.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 06:11:01 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on August 24, 2017, 05:36:44 pmCorrect and they're not the only ones who refrain from displaying superflous leading zeroes. However, they're still inconsistent across product lines.Speaking of HP, it's interesting that in some of their vintage gear they had custom versions of common logic ICs for zero blanking.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 06:24:35 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on August 24, 2017, 05:56:32 pmInteresting you say that.This high profile aircraft accidentwas catalyzed by a problem with zeros.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 06:40:27 pm
content: Well, more specifically, it was a problem with decimals. Only aircraft equipped with an inertial navigation system used headings with decimals and the flight plan heading of 027.0 was incorrected assumed to be 0270 and, hence, misinterpreted as 270° (west) instead of 27° (north-northeast).

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 06:54:01 pm
content: Yes, but still a readability issue where zeros were involved...

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 10:32:03 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on August 14, 2017, 04:57:10 amThe Fairchild 3814 4.5 digit digital voltmeter IC from 1975 (earlier?) supported optional leading zero blanking but the contemporary Siliconix converters did not and I do not see it included in the modern Intersil 7106 implementations. Maxim's single chip voltmeters include optional leading zero suppression though.If Fairchild implemented it in the 3814, the cost is trivial except in requiring another pin to select it. Since Intersil did not implement it, there must have been no demand.Huh, I just found my Fairchild 4000 series CMOS databook. I remember ignoring it as exotic.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2017, 09:45:32 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 24, 2017, 05:04:41 pmI think the main goal should be to display the measurement in a unambiguous way without any redundant leading zeros or strange symbols. Those cause more harm than good, because the measurement value can be misread easily. If a range indication is needed then add a dedicated one. Presumbaly this whole mess was created by minimizing BOM cost, since misusing the digits and drivers already available as a range indication is cheap, no additional segments and drivers are needed. But there's no excuse for graphical displays besides ignorance.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2017, 10:05:56 am
content: Another reason would be segmented displays with + and - annunciators to the left of the first digit (and units annunciators to the right of the last digit). Displaying:+0001.6mVwould be vastly preferable to displaying:+ 1.6mVHowever there is no excuse on modern MCU controlled bench meters with dot matrix displays and persistent user settings not to make leading zero blanking user configurable.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2017, 05:35:45 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on August 25, 2017, 10:05:56 amYou must be kidding.

author: Neomys Sapiens
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2017, 08:06:42 pm
content: Quote from: capt bullshot on August 14, 2017, 09:16:23 amEspecially stultefying when you try to explain this and the designer explains to you that those microkelvins do really exist, because it is analogue!Quote from: capt bullshot on August 14, 2017, 09:16:23 amConcur totally. As far as I know, most German engineers do. This does not hold true to our austrian neighbours. Austrian company took ours over and changed all document formats to use a comma instead of a DP.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2017, 11:04:33 pm
content: Quote from: madires on August 25, 2017, 09:45:32 amI don't think you understand the value of visual placeholders. They reduce cognitive load, not increase it, because they let you know exactly what you'renotseeing, which is often easier than seeing. (Do you drive a car? If so, then you'll know how the purpose of glancing in your mirrors isn't actually to see what's there, but rather to verify whatisn'tthere: another car.)Another example of how placeholders reduce cognitive load: dimmed commands in software menus. Dimming ("graying out") commands that are unavailable, as opposed to actually removing them, helps users a) learn what commands are available, even when not available right now, b) help you understand the relationships between the circumstances that make a command available or not, (and you don't go around looking for commands that are unavailable but invisible because they were removed) and c) arguably most importantly, they keep commands from moving around. That last one reduces cognitive load, because you know that for example, that copy, cut, and paste always come in that order, so if you need paste, it'll always be third, even if cut and copy are currently dimmed.Regardless, my entire point is that using something that's neither a space nor a zero has massive advantages.

author: Naguissa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2017, 11:16:17 pm
content: Quote from: Neomys Sapiens on August 25, 2017, 08:06:42 pmI prefer ",", as it's 'bigger' and can be seen easier even for people as short-sighted as me.... :-)Enviado desde mi Jolla mediante Tapatalk

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2017, 11:19:29 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on August 25, 2017, 10:05:56 amWut? The second is exactly what I'd want to see. That or+0001.6 mV.Or rather still,0001.6 mVfor positive values and–0001.6 mVor–1.6 mVfor negative ones. No meter I have ever used shows an annunciatior for positive values, only for negative. No need to clutter the screen with them for positives.For example, a Fluke 87V would display those as1.6mVand–1.6mV(it floats the minus sign along with the value, one leading zero only, e.g. 0.5mV).

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 01:17:33 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 25, 2017, 11:19:29 pmDisplaying both + and - for DC measurements distinguishes them from AC measurements which have no polarity. If I see 1.23 volts, is that positive DC or AC?

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 02:06:46 am
content: I just hope there is no thousand separation. Nothing is more confusing as jumping between equipment . and , radixes and . and , thousand separation..There is lots of great equipment out there, but only few have really good UI.. 99% of times it sucks. Why internet sites used to have sidebar on left?? Most people have stronger visual reception on right side.Also modern designers have ZERO understanding of concrpt of contrast. ..or travel and realestate analysis.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 09:42:36 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 25, 2017, 11:04:33 pmBased on your reasoning I should see placeholders for cars which aren't there, just to make sure that I'm able to see something in case a car would turn up suddenly. Yeah, that really helps with driving

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 01:30:51 pm
content: Quote from: madires on August 26, 2017, 09:42:36 amYou could have grayed out silhouettes of vehicles etched onto all your cars windows, so that you always know what to keep a look out for.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 07:45:19 pm
content: Quote from: madires on August 26, 2017, 09:42:36 amBased on my reasoning (and not your deliberately obtuse reimagination of it), the point is that you can glance at the mirror and see the "blank" mirror (showing just the road), versus a mirror with things in it (cars that you don't want to crash into). You're not actually looking at the mirror to look at the cars; you glance at it to verify quickly that it's "empty".

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 07:49:58 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on August 26, 2017, 01:17:33 amI suppose, but doesn't your meter already have an annunciatior for AC? The Fluke 87V (as well as my K2015) for example shows VDC and VAC to the right of the number, while the Keysight U1252B displays a ~ to the left of the number when in AC. (My K197 shows the tilde and AC when in AC.)Now, we do still need to deal with those negative ohms, though!

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 08:57:34 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 26, 2017, 07:49:58 pmOlder meters commonly lack additional indicators besides the digits, decimal points, and +/- sign.My newer but old Beckman displays +/- in DC modes and a ~ in AC modes. My newer Tektronix DMM916 displays AC, DC, and AC+DC as needed and a - for negative but never a +. My older meters only have +/- to distinguish AC and DC like I described.Of the above, only the DMM916 has leading zero suppression and when this is done, the - sign stays stuck at the left most side of the display.

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2017, 09:05:45 pm
content: Just found out that Advantest/ADCMT bench multimeters blank zeros !