SALEAE prices ... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 12:21:11 am
content: Some years ago i was going to buy a basic SALEAE LA to sniff serial buses with custom protocols (that i develop) but things went in a different way and i used different tools, mainly MCUs programmed for the purpose.Some days ago, after seeing a friend using an old Logic device with the Logic 2 i finally decided to proceed with the purchase except that i soon discovered that prices skyrocket to the sky, probably i lived under a rock but ... WT* happened in the mean time ?My memories were about something around 150 USD for the simpler tool, now we start from 500 Euros with the cheapest one ... i fear i do not understand their business model.Now the question : is there a way to buy an older and cheaper legit device ? ( I do not give a * for analog signals)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 12:29:23 am
content: Quote from: markone on November 21, 2022, 12:21:11 amI don't think you can buy anything old from saleae.There's cheap clones though:https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=24mhz+usb+logicAnd free software to use with them if you want to be 100% "legit":https://sigrok.org/wiki/PulseView

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 12:35:51 am
content: I use one of the cheap Chinese analyzers that, from what I can tell, uses similar hardware as the Saleae Logic 8. So similar that the Saleae software worked with it ages ago. (I don't know if it still does.)It works just fine with sigrok (an alternative software), so if your need is digital only, 24 MHz, 8-channel, it's a $20 prospect to try it out.That's been good enough for me to troubleshoot some of my ESP32 projects, a router that wouldn't boot, and a 3D printer board that was malfunctioning.Even if you're going to eventually get something more expensive, I'd judge the Chinese CY7C68013A-based device to be legit when used with sigrok software.https://atadiat.com/en/e-hands-on-test-saleae-usb-logic-analyzer-24mhz-8ch-clone/https://chinese-electronics-products-tested.blogspot.com/p/24m-8ch-logical-analyser-tested.html

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 12:47:46 am
content: I think the clones made it not worthwhile competing at that end of the market.A shame, as the saleae hardware and software is a treat (though I tend to resist the latest version .. last time I tried it still wasn't as smooth as the original).This is why we can't have nice things ..

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 12:49:27 am
content: Yes, i'm aware that it's possible to use cheap Cypress based Logic clones but as a professional consultant i have to go "clean" in some job context, reason why i asked for "legit" devices.Anyhow, 500 euros for Logic 8, well ... come on ...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 12:55:26 am
content: Quote from: markone on November 21, 2022, 12:49:27 amYou can get a Digital Discovery for less and it's far more powerful:https://digilent.com/shop/digital-discovery-portable-usb-logic-analyzer-and-digital-pattern-generator/

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 01:07:28 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on November 21, 2022, 12:35:51 amIt makes sense and i agree with that, but Sigrock lacks (or seems to lack) the feature that i need most : trigger on UART decoder output byte sequence and / or stacked protocol analysis.Please correct me if i'm wrong.In addition also the "real time" screen update and the way the serial decoder's output is displayed in Logic2 comes a lot in handy, I had a completely different memory of older versions.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 01:13:27 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 21, 2022, 12:55:26 amWhich applications support it ?

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 01:59:04 am
content: Anyhow, just saw Saleae discontinued products prices on Adafruit website :Logic 4 : 109 USDLogic 8 : 149 USDLogic 16 : 249 USDOld Logic 4 would have been perfect for my need ...

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 03:41:12 am
content: Use a clone and sigrok, you won't be breaking anything.If it comes with cloned USB VID/PID, you can set a custom one in the EEPROM that belongs to Sigrok's fx2lafw open source firmware:Code:1D50:608C: fx2lafw-sigrok-fx2-8ch.fw (8ch 24MHz)EEPROM: C0 50 1D 8C 60 00 1B 00 (Rest FF)1D50:608D: fx2lafw-sigrok-fx2-16ch.fw (16ch 12MHz)EEPROM: C0 50 1D 8D 60 00 1B 00 (Rest FF)Details:https://www.sigrok.org/blog/sigrok-firmware-fx2lafw-013-releasedYou can use fx2tool to modify the eeprom, but it's just 8 bytes, so I simply desoldered the EEPROM and modified in a programmer, takes a minute.More here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/saleae-clone-24mhz-8-channel-la-looses-its-brains/So you'll be using open source firmware and software, nothing that could be seen as piracy, you can't use Saelae software with those vid/pid, only sigrok.

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 04:50:34 am
content: OpenTechLab on youtube has several videos discussing inexpensive logic analyzers and how to use them with the open source sigrok pulseview software. He also talks a bit about the ethics of using Saleae clones - he was a contributor. It boils down to if the logic analyzer is using open source (non-saleae) firmware and software, then it’s “clean”. It’s just a cypress chip using open source software.The videos also demonstrate using sigrok’s PulseView software. Finally there’s an interesting teardown & review of the DSLogic Plus, which is a moderately priced LA that’s not a Saleae clone.- General info on inexpensive LAs:- A teardown of a DSLogic Plus:- Using the DSLogic with sigrok:

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 12:20:13 pm
content: Quote from: mwb1100 on November 21, 2022, 04:50:34 amHi,i never had a single doubt about that, problem is Pulseview is lacking a mandatory feature for my purpose : trigger on byte sequence coming from async serial decoding, i would be glad if i'm wrong.In the mean time a put my hands on two different devices :1) a Kingst LA1010 LA from Amazon2) an old USBee AX Pro cloneFirst one seems well build, allows to select voltage threshold and support up 50V at logic inputs but ... its own SW is totally unable to trigger on serial decoding output AND the device is de facto not supported under Sigrok, at least windows version.Second one works a treat with Logic 2 (after VID/PID "cure") doing everything i need using Concatenator extension, with a nice realtime trace & decoding display, as i saw at my friend lab some days ago ( he also was unaware about current prices ...).To recap : LA1010 useless, clone OK, so i have to find a legit low cost Saleae device, i cannot show the oriental clone & Saleae SW with my customers.But after having spent at least one hour searching on the web it seems impossible, there are only few sad men selling old inventory at tripled cost.I also found out that after Saleae price increase most of Chinese clones doubled (at least) in price, especially ones with 16CH and FPGA and i also found out a couple of official statement from Saleae published to justify the HUGE cost increase (as if the global crisis was their only problem) and i also spotted their romantic video about the art of debugging, like every thing was made by their device in automated fashion.if we follow their reasoning a Rigol DS1054Z should cost at least 1000USD (plus taxes) and thinking what was inside their old budget model sold at 109 USD i struggle to believe that it was impossible to make some margin.Reality is that now they are doing hundreds from a single device, but i wonder how many they are selling.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 12:32:50 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 21, 2022, 01:13:27 amhttps://digilent.com/shop/software/digilent-waveforms/

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 12:45:02 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 21, 2022, 12:20:13 pmUSB analysers in the price range you are looking at do not support triggering on uart decode, or any kind of decode. You get edge/level triggers and combinations of those across channels at best.A possible low cost solution is to make your own trigger circuit.Program a small mcu with uart to toggle a pin when your desired character is seen, then use that pin as a trigger in your chosen LA.If the system you are debugging has an mcu, which you're programming, then use that mcu.Want to spend more money? Take a look at ZeroPlusyoutube.com/watch?v=JwEsS7tVnFQPeople say good things about them, although I've never liked the look of their GUI.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 12:47:29 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 21, 2022, 12:32:50 pmOk, this evening i will take some time to register and try the software in demo mode, but i wonder if this is the only data analysis application that support it.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 12:52:42 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on November 21, 2022, 12:45:02 pmThis is what i did until now, but now i need something more flexible.Anyway, every low cost solution supports async serial decoding under Sigrok / Pulseview, the problem is only related to trigger over the content mechanism, but without this specific need it's enough to spend 10USD.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 12:56:48 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 21, 2022, 12:52:42 pmOf course, but decoding is done _post_ acquisition (by python plugins) and cannot be used for acquisition triggering.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 01:25:34 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 21, 2022, 12:20:13 pmJust use sigrokClones don't have Saleae anywhere, neither they include any pirated firmware, the fw is loaded by the program running on the PC, you would only be breaking the license if you used Saleae SW with it.Otherwise, Saleae design is just the EZ-USB FX2LP reference board with a TTL buffer.No way of calling it "pirated design".

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 02:42:57 pm
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on November 21, 2022, 01:25:34 pmYou didn't follow carefully the discussion, we all said that we agree with what you said about the use of LA clones, for the rest Ineeda trigger mechanism on async serial decode ouput but Sigrok does not provide that, Logic 2 does (at least last versions).

author: dshorthill
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 03:32:26 pm
content: Not to debate Saleae prices, but they do have steep discounts available:https://blog.saleae.com/saleae-discounts/Disclosure… I own a Logic Pro 16, purchased at 50% discount when list price was $995. I’m a happy customer!

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 04:09:05 pm
content: Quote from: dshorthill on November 21, 2022, 03:32:26 pmFrom their page :Standard Pricing Student Pricing Enthusiast Pricing Startup/Contractor PricingLogic 8$479$239 $239$359Logic Pro 8$999* *$849Logic Pro 16$1399* *$1259in my book, as a contractor, "steep discounts" are something else.Apart that, in EU there is no sign of similar "steep discount", Logic 8 costs for everyone550-600 Euros, depending the seller.To put it simple, there is now way in the world that i'll by this thing at this price.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 04:11:29 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 21, 2022, 12:21:11 amI've seen other tools going up in price as well. Most likely it is due to component shortage and needing to buy parts at 10 times the price. About 2 years ago I paid around 200 euro for a Prologix ethernet GPIB interface. Right now they cost around 600 euro. I triple checked: it is the same model I bought!At the current Salea prices levels it makes more sense to buy an oscilloscope with digital inputs (or upgrade your existing DSO if possible).

author: dshorthill
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 04:20:25 pm
content: The”Enthusiast” discount is not shown for the Logic Pro 8 or Logic Pro 16. I stated I was an Enthusiast and asked by email and was offered 50% off. I think this percentage applies to all models?

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 04:25:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 21, 2022, 04:11:29 pmPrologix ethernet GPIB interface is for sure something old and/or belonging to a niche, looking inside their product i do not feel that related BOM increased that much, but in the end it's not my business.To finalize, i'll try to buy something legit used / old stock, but with little hope, otherwise my customers will see something from other brands.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 04:27:27 pm
content: Quote from: dshorthill on November 21, 2022, 04:20:25 pmDunno, i can only comment what i see, anyway no discounts available here in EU.

author: Domitronic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 05:10:02 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 21, 2022, 04:11:29 pmIf a Logic 4 would have been enough he doesn't even need the digital channels. Standard 4 channel scope should be enough.But i can understand why someone would prefer a Saleae. For decoding i also prefer my Logic Pro 8 because its much more convenient than decoding on a small scope display. And its silent.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 05:14:38 pm
content: Quote from: Domitronic on November 21, 2022, 05:10:02 pmWith a standard scope you cannot do a lot of things that you do with a digital LA / sniffer, first to log long communication period.Anyway, as i previously told here, an old Logic 4 would have been more than enough.

author: ulix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 06:21:14 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 21, 2022, 05:14:38 pmHow about this (if you want I could send it from the UK)?https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324350120733?hash=item4b84c6131d:g:jgEAAOSwUWpa3Tom

author: Swake
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 07:01:13 pm
content: Dear markone,You say it is for a professional project. If that is really the case then its cost should be calculated in your sales price and is not an issue. Even if it was not included, the difference is only 350€ or so, shouldn't be something to spend (I should say waste) a couple hours onto. For DIY it is a totally different situation of course.Please reconsider the proposal from Domitronic. I'm not entirely certain to understand what exactly you want to trigger on but a cheap Rigol DS1054Z can certainly do the trick for 350€ ExVAT on Eleshop. It comes with free advanced triggering and protocol decoding (RS232, I2C, SPI). With this you are 'clean' out of the box. Would you elect to go dirty and patch it then it is capable of twice the speed and some other goodies.Slightly upper the ladder there is the 800€ MSO5074 on sale coming with the protocol analysis options and 2 arbitrary waveform generators and the power analysis option. This is all clean too. The dirty road goes to 350MHz. Best investment you would ever do to boost your analysis capabilities.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 07:44:07 pm
content: Quote from: Swake on November 21, 2022, 07:01:13 pmQuote from: Swake on November 21, 2022, 07:01:13 pmDear Swake, please trust me, i know my job, i started to play with serial lines during the cold war, in the eighties, none of above mentioned instruments, that i regularly use, fits the purpose, nor more expensive ones.I use DSO with serial decodind when i need to verify/measure time relation between serial messages with other digital/analog signals or when i "tag" analog signals with a high speed uart byte.But when it comes to debug systems that make use of one or several serial line with custom protocols DSO becomes useless, the minimal requirement is, at very least, to trigger on specific byte sequence, maybe on different serial lines at very different baud rate.Here Logic does a great job ...

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 07:58:49 pm
content: Quote from: ulix on November 21, 2022, 06:21:14 pmThis is exactly the example that i was referring to when i was saying that the only seller found online, so far, with a Logic 4 in listing was asking 3X original priceJust to clarify, i'm able to afford much more expensive devices, if needed and justified, but this is not the case for the new Saleae product line, i rather would prefer to give my money to other companies with a different business spirit.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 08:00:53 pm
content: Well... Perhabs try sourcing a used genuine Saleae device?https://www.ebay.com/itm/125618430304

author: ulix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 08:15:01 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 21, 2022, 07:58:49 pmSry, I was half heartedly reading through the thread and have missed that...And yes, I do feel you - the prices keeps me from buying one. Their product and software are great, and easy to use that what makes it attractive in my eyes.Have you tried the Picoscope 2000 MSO series?

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 08:25:34 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 21, 2022, 07:58:49 pmIt seems a straight-forward business decision: either the Saleae unit provides enough value to be worth its price, another competing unit offers more value, or none of the solutions are providing enough return on investment. I don't see a problem with business spirit if it's apparently the only device in its price class that offers the feature that's important to you. Clearly they were charging too little before, though keep in mind the protocol triggering feature was added later, so early on their analyzers didn't provide the same value.If you look atTotalPhase, who is operating in the same market segment, then they arguably offer even less value for money, and I imagine their low-end devices aren't much more than a MCU and some software. But given they are around for well over a decade, clearly people pay what they ask for a professional tool rather than a development board and a firmware/software project.Have you taken a good look at the Digilent Digital Discovery yet? I think it supports protocol triggering, but I don't know how it compares to Saleae. Though the plastic case doesn't look quite as professional as the Saleae, so clearly the Saleae is worth more. You can sometimes find the Digital Discovery relatively cheap on eBay if you're lucky.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 08:30:01 pm
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on November 21, 2022, 08:00:53 pmWell,it's the "normal" 24MHz 8-ch analyzer you find for $6.I thought it was a better one, but that's Fluke pricing for peanuts.This model was launched 13 years ago for $149... Asking for $270, what the...?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 08:38:12 pm
content: Quote from: alm on November 21, 2022, 08:25:34 pmIt has serial triggering and a special protocol spying mode.Everything is scriptable. You can write scripts and make it send a reply when it sees the trigger data.I think you should be able get it to pretend to transmit data and simultaneously spy on it in the demo mode (with no hardware).

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 09:32:20 pm
content: Hello,@markone:Is a test possible?If you can provide a sample signal for an arbitrary waveform generator and indicate what settings should be made and what should be triggered on, then someone can check if a particular device meets your requirement.Best regardsegonotto

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 11:54:38 pm
content: Quote from: alm on November 21, 2022, 08:25:34 pmThe value is 99% in their software application, all the job is done on the PC, especially with simple FX2 LA, it would make sense to sell also stand alone SW licenses, someone else already did it for clones.It happens that i know TotalPhase because about ten years ago i developed a data sniffer using their "Beagle I2C/SPI Protocol Analyzer" device, they provide driver support and several APIs, also for Labview, that was the language used for the occasion (actually i'm also a Labview developer).Their product catalog is way more articulated and for sure they spend much more time maintaining software libraries support for all SKUs, i would say there is a lot more manpower behind the facade.I still have to take a look to Digital Discovery and i'm quite curious, i just saw that Amazon sells it around 250 Euro, it could be a reasonable price if the application is up the expectations.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 11:57:55 pm
content: Quote from: ulix on November 21, 2022, 08:15:01 pmI have zero experience with their products, do you know if they offers similar functionality ?

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 12:00:00 am
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on November 21, 2022, 08:30:01 pmExactly what i fought

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 12:06:19 am
content: Quote from: egonotto on November 21, 2022, 09:32:20 pmDo you refer to Sigrok platform or Digilent device ?

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 12:19:29 am
content: Quote from: ulix on November 21, 2022, 08:15:01 pmUpdate :just watched the following video that seems promisingi will definitely look further in ther website.

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 01:41:22 am
content: Quote from: markone on November 22, 2022, 12:06:19 amHello,I have a Digital Discovery and can perhaps try it.As far as I know, PicoScopes can not trigger on data.Best regardsegonotto

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 01:54:08 am
content: Quote from: markone on November 21, 2022, 11:54:38 pmI agree with alm - it seems to me that you should consider whether the price of a product is reasonable in terms of the feature you want. If Saleae's product is the only one that provides a critical feature and if getting that feature is worth $500 (assuming the Logic 8 will do it for you) then whether that feature is 99% software 1% hardware instead of 99% hardware 1% software shouldn't really be a concern. The hardware & software are a product package that provides a solution and it costs $500.It's certainly valid not to like Saleae's business model, but I personally don't think it's a dishonest business model. If you need this for your own revenue generation you should maybe weight the dollars & cents (or Euros & cents) more heavily than emotions about the way the product is being sold.Of course, it's none of my business really. You'll need to make the choice yourself.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 04:00:11 am
content: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/fssaleae-logic-16-gen-1/?topicseen

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 07:49:12 pm
content: Quote from: egonotto on November 22, 2022, 01:41:22 amYes, it seems you are right, in documentation there is no mention about trigger mechanism working on serial decoder output and i find out some customers asking for that in their forum, for about 1K euro i would say it's quite a big lack.How do you use your Digital Discovery ?

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 08:14:12 pm
content: Quote from: mwb1100 on November 22, 2022, 01:54:08 am>"Clearly they were charging too little before"I do not agree, the old application offered a lot less and the cost of the devices that they were selling over one hundred dollars was a fraction of that, with the "old" component cost i see a decent margin.Said that, if you have a catalog of devices starting from 100 USD and suddenly you step 5X, well, you cannot expect to maintain the previous customer base.For instance, take the Logic 8, 8bits @ 100MS/s on USB 2.0 interface plus gimmick analog section : 500 USD ... come on.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 08:39:31 pm
content: Huh, have Salaeaeaea increased their prices again? They already priced themselves out of the market before the chip crisis began.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 08:55:57 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on November 21, 2022, 12:56:48 pmDunno which is exactly the computation pipeline used in Pulseview but i can report that with my setup (simple Cypress FX2 LA) decoded serial data is presented on the screen, together signal trace, in live fashion, i would think that within certain speed it would be possible to put inline e trigger mechanism, for sure there is the potential to make it.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 08:59:29 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on November 22, 2022, 04:00:11 amUnknown poster's nationality ...

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 09:46:25 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 22, 2022, 08:59:29 pmWhen someone posts a dollar price without specifying which country's dollar it is a fairly safe assumption that the poster in in that big country where parochial minds are more common than elsewhere.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 09:53:37 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 22, 2022, 08:14:12 pmIf you think the cost of a hardware + software product should just be function of the BOM cost, then I have a bridge to sell to you. The price of the bridge will obviously be purely based on the price of concrete and steel.Quote from: markone on November 22, 2022, 08:14:12 pmWell, then they must have found a new customer base or they would have gone bankrupt by now. I don't see how this concerns you, though, unless your concern is if the company is going to go bankrupt. Either $500 solves a problem for you that's worth at least $500 to solve it over the time you plan to use their device, it does not solve a problem for you, or it does solve a problem but this is not worth $500 to you, for example because you have a cheaper solution or maybe the problem isn't that important to solve. Dreaming about how it would have been better if you bought their product years ago isn't going to help your business.Quote from: markone on November 22, 2022, 08:14:12 pmI suggest to buy a competing device then, if you think $500 is so excessive for the value they offer. But somehow you seem to spend more energy complaining about Saleae's prices than trying demos of competing products like Digilent Waveforms (software for the Digital Discovery).

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 10:03:39 pm
content: Probably coming from a country that made this:Don't take those 100MSPS that easily, it heavily depends on the number of channels:1-3 100MSps4-6 50MSps7 40MSps8 25MSpsThe Logic 8 pro is way faster:1-6 500MSps7-8 250MSpsAnd the Logic 16 Gen 1 does:1-8 25MSps9-16 16MSps

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 12:54:36 am
content: dslogic should be able to trigger on byte sequencehttps://www.dreamsourcelab.com/product/dslogic-series/https://www.dreamsourcelab.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/protocol-trig-en.png

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 12:57:50 am
content: Quote from: alm on November 22, 2022, 09:53:37 pmNot an expert but i guess that the balance between manpower / material cost for a bridge is quite far from a small USB dongle and asingleSW application under development for years, as i already told if the same scheme were applied to all electronic instruments they would cost 5 times as much than we pay right now.Do you think that a single Logic SW license is worth, let's say, 300-400 USD ?If so, other application software that we pay hundreds should cost millions.Version 1.x was nothing special, now is starting to be something more productive thanks also to thecostlesscontribution of the customer community.Quote from: alm on November 22, 2022, 09:53:37 pmI'm in good company about this feeling.Quote from: alm on November 22, 2022, 09:53:37 pmYes, there is some energy loss replying to whom is trying to justify those "reap off" prices, for the rest i got some useful hints that i'm investigating in my spare time and yes, Digital Discovery is on top of the list, from what I've seen so far it seems to be worth every penny it costs (about 250 euro from Amazon in EU) for those has some time to spend around it.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 01:07:15 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 23, 2022, 12:54:36 amThank you very much for the hint, their product seems to have a very honest price / performance ratio, i'm wondering if exist an EU reseller.Do you have some experience with their tools ? As far as i understood their application started as a fork of Sigrok Pulseview but at a some point they started to crash with the community.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 01:41:53 am
content: Yeah I use dslogic plus with either their own DSView or Sigrok software, both work. I bought straight from china (aliexpress).https://sigrok.org/wiki/DreamSourceLab_DSLogichttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/usb-logic-analyzer-whats-the-current-favorite-for-~150$/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/choosing-a-logic-analyzer-dslogic-vs-saleae-vs-asix-sigma-2/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/usb-logic-analyzer-recommendation/https://github.com/DreamSourceLab/DSView

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 02:17:29 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 23, 2022, 01:41:53 amWhat does DSView offer more respect Pulseview ?I played a little with the latter but i never saw DSView in action, time to find something on youtube.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 04:30:20 am
content: You can buy the Chinesium basic version ($80) and upgrade it to Plus by replacing the SDRAM ($2) and modifying the USB ID in the eeprom.Morehere.Though for professional use, it's just $149, I wouldn't bother.Offers a lot more for 1/3 of the Saleae Logic 8 price.Software is OpenSource, I wonder why it's not been modified yet to work with the cheap Saleae clones.

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 06:27:33 am
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on November 23, 2022, 04:30:20 amThat is discussed in OpenTechLab's video on the DSLogicstarting at about 27 minutes in:Quote

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 10:18:50 am
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on November 23, 2022, 04:30:20 amI totally agree, the only annoyance is that our custom service together courier's custom office enjoy charging as much as they can, so a shipping with an invoice of 150 USD cost become easily 230 adding VAT (22%), import fee (10%) and fixed import fee, normally not less than 30-50 euros.If the seller tricks the invoice is even worst, because when custom office see doubtful numbers then ask for payment proof and then slap your face with a greater import fee and longer delivery time.This is exactly what happens, for sure, if you import something from abroad using an express courier, things goes in a different way if you make use of a registered postal service, but it takes ages, this is the reason why i stopped to import directly thing from USA and China, apart small things from ebay / aliexpress with postal service (delivery time 30-60 days...).So usually it is preferable to pay more in first place with an EU reseller and get some support if shit happens, but it seems that DreamSourceLab does not have one for Europe.In the mean time i downloaded DSview for windows but advanced triggering menu does not work in demo mode, the program says it requires Dslogic Hardware support, the menu itself is grayed out and serial trigger options are not visible.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 10:25:00 am
content: There must be some european distributors.Found one here:https://multi-com.eu/,details,id_pr,22645,key,dslogic-plus-usb-based-logic-analyzer.htmlIf imports are really causing so much trouble, the get the basic and upgrade it.Not sure in Italy, in Spain we pay 21% VAT for everything, then an additional ~30€ fee for >150€ imports.Edit: Italy is pretty much the same:QuoteHowever the bas**ds include the shipping costs, so you're screwed up easily.Perhabs you could ask them to make different invoices, so you pay for the product in one and the shipping in the other.If you get asked, show the PayPal invoice: "product: 149.99".Anyways, even 200-250€ is still much better deal than the $500 Saleae basic.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 11:09:55 am
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on November 23, 2022, 10:25:00 amGreat, thank you, i will look further later.About import cost, i dropped the ball many years ago because the theory is never applied, especially with UPS, FEDEX, DHL, a starting price of 100, shipping included, in practice is never less than 150 and could become easily 170 because they can add additional charges and you can do nothing.As i told, the only alternative is to order with, at least, registered postal service but timing and reliability are totally different and in any case if you get a faulty device your are screwed.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 12:19:43 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 23, 2022, 01:07:15 amDSLogic guys are a bunch of thieving knobs who used a Kickstarter and the open source vibe for their own commercial benefit, without actually being open.When they started up, they stole the open source GPL licensedPulseViewGUI from thesigrokproject. Made their own changes to it as needed for their analyser and declined to openly publish their source code as required by the license. They made some token gesture to publish on github but AFAIK there were significant disparities between that repo and their shipped binary. Thegithub repostill exists but I would still be extremely skeptical that it reflects the current binary. The original PulseView developer discusses this situationhere.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 12:30:20 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on November 23, 2022, 12:19:43 pmNot the first time that i ear something like that, are they based in China ?

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 12:42:18 pm
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on November 23, 2022, 10:25:00 amJust looked at their webshop, finalized price with VAT and TNT shipping is around 210 Euro, i would say it's doable, it remain to be seen if it actually works as expected (trigger on byte sequence out of serial decoder).

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 01:02:42 pm
content: You'd be surprised about how many devices use GPL code while not compiling the license terms.Just the starting: Almost anything connected to the internet.The guys at Dreamlab simply forgot to delete some references to sigrok, otherwise it would have been extremely hard to demonstrate it.Wouldn't call it evil, pretty much the standard nowadays, every big company earns millions using gpl code and doesn't donate s** to their creators, showing absolute lack of gratitute.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 01:11:51 pm
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on November 23, 2022, 01:02:42 pmThis is a very inept response. Many people ignore copyright law but that doesn't make it acceptable. Also, people who use code in accordance with the license may not be obligated to pay anything - as per most open source licenses. This was the choice of the code author.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 01:29:05 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on November 23, 2022, 01:11:51 pmYep, you are right in principle but i can confirm what DavidAlfa wisely said, there is a huge number of commercial devices that do make use of GPL cod buried inside their binaries, i can assure you that there are some "notorious" brand among their producers.If you look at what China did in the last decades see a countless number of (actual) patent infringements, so try to figure out what they think about GPL code

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 01:42:11 pm
content: Inept? I'm not defending them at all, I'm just saying, there's a 99.9% probability the router you're using to surf this site right now is using some sort of GPL, or the LTE antena, or any network node in-between, and for sure lots are violating the GPL.So it's not " thieves at Dreamlab", like they were the most evils psychopaths in the world, it's almost everyone out there doing the same thing.But they did the correct at the end, lots of companies just ignore these things.Several people compiled the program and apparently it's the same thing, also their repo is pretty active.A lot of companies also do some dirty tricks, like releasing the code only for the initial version (Bugged as hell), then the program evolves: 1.01, 1.02... but these changes are never published.Never fully undertsood GPL, the ideology of free sharing is nice, but also like shooting yourself at the same time, giving away all your work for free, then let others make millions with it.From my point of view, a much better aproach is Unreal Engine terms: After it generated $1 million USD in gross revenue, start paying 5% of your income.So, you can use it for free for non-comercial purposes or low-revenue projects.Of course, I'm not saying to pay 5% to every GPL code you use, but man, if you're drowning in money, show some gratitude!Do you remember this?https://www.businessinsider.com/developer-sabotages-open-source-github-code-libraries-protest-corporations-2022-1Github blocked the creator from accessing his own repo. What??It's MY code. If you don't like it, block the repo from the rest of the world, but you don't have any right to remove my access to it.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 01:48:53 pm
content: David's rant attempting to shore up his support for DSLogic by saying that IP theft is OK because it's so common. Obviously he is right that it's very common. I do not agree with anyone who says that makes it OK, and its particularly jarring to see engineers jumping on that bandwagon to save a few bucks.There are lots of cheap goods from China that are 'good value' because they had significantly reduced development expense.Enjoy your bargain DSLogic[This is OT so I'll stop here]

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 02:00:20 pm
content: Hate people trying to put words in my mouth I never said, not even close, you really don't want to take that route.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 02:30:16 pm
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on November 23, 2022, 01:42:11 pmIt's your code and you're free to go host it anywhere that agrees to host it for you.If someplace doesn't agree to host it, they're under no obligation to do so. If they initially agree and then you act in a manner that causes them to decide to no longer offer you service, they are free to revoke it. At 1 nano-second after that decision, they are also free to host the software under terms that comply with the license.This is not just the legally defensible position (which I think it obviously is), but is also ethically defensible IMO. If you want to take your ball and go home, you're free to do so with all future changes. If you agreed to license the existing ball under GPL, there's no ethically defensible reason (IMO) to support theretroactiverevocation of that.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 02:42:24 pm
content: Not talking about the right to keep hosting it.If you don't want to keep hosting it, that's ok!But blocking the creator while still keeping the code... Nope!

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 03:01:32 pm
content: Interesting discussion, sorry for cross posting here, but it is kind related.https://www.picotech.com/support/topic40355.htmlIt shows what Picoscope developers are thinking about the trigger in serial stuff....

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 03:31:10 pm
content: Quote from: Zucca on November 23, 2022, 03:01:32 pmQuite old stuff, gone nowhere :"Unfortunately, a decision has been made, and this is not likely to be implemented in our software anytime soon. We will, instead be implementing the mitigating features mentioned in my previous reply".It seems that Picoscope fan base is made mainly with analog boyz

author: jasonRF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 03:34:39 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 22, 2022, 12:19:29 amEdit: I see someone else beat me to it!Unless this will be a new feature added in future Picoscope 7 updates, picoscopes cannot trigger on decoded values. They do all decoding in software after each capture.Jason

author: jasonRF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 03:52:10 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 23, 2022, 03:31:10 pmI mostly do analog stuff, and my 2-channel picoscopes are great for that. I was just doing some SPI decoding this morning (in response to this thread) and re-verified that triggering on decoded values is not supported. If I end up needing serial decoding that requires more than 2 channels I will obviously need to pick up a separate logic analyzer anyway.Jason

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 03:58:45 pm
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on November 23, 2022, 02:42:24 pmThe code was released under a license that explicitly and intentionally allows them (or anyone else who has a copy of it) to "keep it".They haven't taken it away from the creator. The creator still has it and has the same set of rights they had before they performed their sabotage exercise. if the creator happens to have lost all copies of it, because of the licensing, github is able to provide them a copy of the repository, anonymously in incognito mode if they wish.github has the right to keep hosting it, explicitly because of the license.github has the right to suspend service to marak (which appears to have since been restored, though that is substantially irrelevant here).

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 04:07:06 pm
content: Quote from: jasonRF on November 23, 2022, 03:34:39 pmAlso SALEAE's Logic does all the decoding in software, at least with "pure" Cypress CY7C68013A LA, they simply build up a pipelined process where the application capture continuously data segments and decode them in parallel, that is something that thousands of programs do in every kind of platforms.When you have a match with the trigger pattern you start to push data segments outside the pipeline in a queue until the desired amount of data is reached, so I do not see any particular reason that prevent Picoscope to implement a such functionality, for what i have understood reading some posts in their forum they (Picoscope) are not focused on that kind of application, reason why I dropped the brand for this purpose.

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 04:09:13 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on November 23, 2022, 12:19:43 pmThe original Pulseview developer (Joel Holdsworth, aka OpenTechLab) doesn't seem to be as upset about it:QuoteAs far as DreamSourceLab not keeping the github repository up to date, it looks like they have pushed the source for v1.2.1:-https://github.com/DreamSourceLab/DSView/releases/tag/v1.2.1Though I can't say whether that tag actually builds 1.2.1 correctly (I haven't tried building DSView).Since DSView is covered by the GPL it is completely legitimate to use the DSView software on a clone device if you want to save a bit of money. Note that the clone devices generally don't have the shielded fly wires, which might be important in high speed scenarios (DreamSourceLab sells the shielded fly wires separately)Quote from: DavidAlfa on November 23, 2022, 01:42:11 pmThe idea behind the GPL is *user* oriented. It was designed to make it so users aren't prevented from doing what they want with the software.Philosophy of the GNU Project. Essentially, the GPL imposes no restrictions on users of the the software. It only imposes restrictions if you redistribute the software - the restriction being that you must supply the source code (including any modifications) and you have to license your distributed software under the GPL as well, preserving the user's rights to do whatever they want with it (until they redistribute).And keep in mind that if you release source code for your software, the possibility of it being improperly used by others for profit exists regardless of the license (unless you release it to the public domain, in which case there is no "improper use" possible as far as rights to the source code).

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 04:33:58 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 23, 2022, 03:31:10 pmIt shows that a (Pico)scope is "generally" not the right tool for advanced serial data trigger...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 07:09:23 pm
content: Where it comes to I2C and CAN decoding, the ability to trigger on specific addresses is mandatory. I use that quite often while decoding I2C or CAN data.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 07:34:14 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 21, 2022, 01:07:28 amWell, the uart decoder has some sort of functionality, "packet delimiter", all data sent before a delimiter byte will be threaten as a packet."So if you set '$' (0x24)" as delimiter and send:$STARTING PACKET$ANOTHERPACKET$CONFIG DATA$blahYou packets will look like:$STARTING PACKET$ANOTHERPACKET$CONFIG DATA$blah (Not shown as a packet until next $ is sentAs you see, the only problem is it behaves in the opposite way as you would expect:The packet will be "EverythingBefore$", not "$EverythingAfter".But I think it should be easy to modify.Of course it supports stack decoder on top of the UART data, but not whatever you customized, but you could make a custom stack decoder with some time and patience, they're made in python and easily editable, no need to compile etc...

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 09:33:28 pm
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on November 23, 2022, 07:34:14 pmHi David,custom stack decoder is interesting but right now it's not what i'm looking for, currently I need something with a simple menu to define bytes triggering sequence in HEX format straight and simple, function that I would consider mandatory for any serious test on the field.Le me get back to DSlogic : do you know if also the U2Basic model is compatible with DSview Serial Multi Stage Trigger or it is a feature that requires DSlogic plus (or higher) ?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 10:42:13 pm
content: U2Basic and Plus are the same, just the memory size change, that David mentioned above. Then the slightly lower bandwidth probes too.It might not have sigrok support yet:https://sigrok.org/wiki/DreamSourceLab_DSLogic_U2Basicedit: maybe its capped at 100MHz by default, prior to hackhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dslogic-u2basic-model-logic-analyzer-now-has-64mbit-buffer/You can read all the old threads to find this informationhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/upgrading-dslogic-basic-to-plus-without-eeprom-modification/msg2859158/#msg2859158

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 10:58:42 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 23, 2022, 10:42:13 pmMany thanks for the hint, i'm going to read the full 3ad "upgrading-dslogic-basic-to-plus".

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 11:35:50 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 23, 2022, 10:42:13 pmUpdate : after reading the entire "upgrading-dslogic-basic-to-plus" thread and watched some tube review I decided to go for the "DSlogic plus", so i pulled the trigger on Ebay for about 125 Euros shipped, now the long wait beginsMany thanks to everyone for the help, I will update with my impression on device arrival (i hope before Christmas...).