Who buys the ultra-expensive test equipment, and what's it used for? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 04:55:31 am
content: For example, you could buy a house, or you could by thisusedR&S wideband receiver, and if you look at the seller'sother listing's, you've got all sorts of options ranging from a nice used motorcycle, to a nice new luxury car, to a house.Who is buying this?! Where is it used? What industries need this sort of test equipment and why? I mean these questions earnestly... I'm no stranger to hundred-thousand dollar lasers (for two-photon microscopy, and other imaging applications) along with similarly expensive equipment.But what's driving the development of this new ever-more capable, ever more expensive equipment? It seems like the test equipment industry is alive and well as it's ever been over the past 50 years. I wouldn't even know what to do with a $400k wideband receiver. Hook probes up to it?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 05:01:05 am
content: development of advanced electronics product and quality assurance on advanced electronics products.If you think that is bad look at fiber optics related equipment LOLLook at the pictures in the sales brochures to see who is using it. Might be a F22 raptor, a satellite uplink or something on a humvee.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6Git will answer the eternal question, that is,will that smart watch prevent the ringer from working?and can we sell it in the USAandEurope without paying theChineseguys for a redesign?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 05:08:10 am
content: they usually live in buildings that look like this with some crappy modern art (unmaintained) at the door

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 07:47:12 am
content: Anythingis cheap/disposable if you're using it to develop something that's even more expensive.eg. I once bought a $50,000 SGI workstation with my own money because I had a $60,000 job opportunity.Never used it much after that and eventually gave it away to a local kid... those things went obsoletefast.(ah, the old days...)

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 09:14:50 am
content: The EMC testing lab I've been using has an obscene amount of gear like that. Gotta spend money to make money... or something like that...

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 09:03:14 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 24, 2024, 07:47:12 amSo there are industries of people just buying the biggest most expensive equpiment to use for a few jobs, then chunking it???

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 09:15:02 pm
content: That device is a masterpiece. It allows to monitor any reasonable RF signal transmitted up to 26GHz.It can be used by intelligence agencies, compliance testing at R&D for new standards or by law enforcement.For any potential use case, the price of this equipment is irrelevant.Imagine a foreign embassy using this with proper antennas close to a government building. This is what you will be monitoring.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 09:18:55 pm
content: Quote from: Bicurico on March 24, 2024, 09:15:02 pmAs you also can with SSA5085A for just $21k.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 09:24:35 pm
content: I doubt both devices are comparable.Also, R&S will provide it's customers with paid support and training, which Siglent customers don't get.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 09:27:56 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 24, 2024, 04:55:31 amThe end of the cold war saw a huge decline in the expensive test equipment market. A decline few people truly recovered from. However, the need for exotic equipment for high end fibre and wireless communications has really replaced the military applications which used to drive the business, and I believe things look pretty good these days.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 09:34:19 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 24, 2024, 09:03:14 pmYep.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 09:40:03 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 24, 2024, 09:03:14 pmThere are some eye wateringly expensive test sets for a variety of protocols, which are very specific to those protocols. Right now I imagine there are a lot of redundant LTE test systems in the market, which have been replaced by a lot of 5G test systems. If the protocols keep moving on, the equipment has to be replaced. If the protocols hang around for a long time the equipment sees a long life.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 09:43:30 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on March 24, 2024, 05:08:10 amAnd they leave the lights switched on all through the night because, as their product cartons state, theyreallycare about the planet.It's all about thecalibratedproduct support. If you are building $100M communication satellites then you are not going to use a $10 Home Depot DMM. Well, not officially. Okay, YOU go tell the management team that you're having to slash the test equipment budget because the same management team just blew all the budget on charging points for their toy TeslasFun fact, test equipment engineers and their families need to eat too.

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 10:36:43 pm
content: It's true that demand for ultra-high-end test equipment these days is driven mainly by optical and wireless communication R&D. But not this one. This is clearly built with two very specific applications in mind:- monitoring spectrum use/tracking down interferers- military/intelligence signal interception

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 10:52:31 pm
content: I think that is paranoid nonsense. A boss wants 1 box that does it all, always. Especially when lab space is low (always is). They also always want to expand budget for good reasons (it like the tide and you wanna be prepared).Unless its the guy that says you don't need more then 50MHz 2 channels for digital and expects you to work till 9pm making 'adapters'For instance, are you sure that 5.8GHz is not making a third harmonic ? This is standard stuff nowadays, especially with 5G!!!!!! are you kidding!!!Car has 70GHz radar on it now. Do you really think a serious lab would just be happy with trusting the manufacturer that its not doing anything bad when there is all sorts of mixers and diodes in there???For instance in a car some barely technical boss might say "well I want proof the radar is not going into the radio!!!!". You can tell him theory till you are blue in the face on the back of a ambulance but the only thing that's gonna shut that guy up is a graph!!Big companies don't have theory based risk takers!If you try trying to use mixers or making some attachment the totally non technical guy is gonna ask "well how did you calibrate that? what is the confidence interval on the measurement? what is temperature effect"? You might wanna say jack shit but that is NOT a valid answer in a accredited environment. Hell, they will get pissed off if the equipment is from a different manufacturer and that you need to connect two boxes with cables. How do we know that cable is good?I don't think you ever deal with a pain in the ass before.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 10:59:07 pm
content: Or take something simple like Bluetooth. FCC wants this tested for spurious up to 26.5GHz! CE radiated immunity testing goes up to 6GHz nowadays.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 11:00:40 pm
content: and then there is the guy that wants future proofing, because he has a gut feeling that the consumer standards might change in the near future and they wanna be prepared for problems!!!!or just they wanna give the customer more confidence by extending it because he thinks people might be curious because of how that little wiggle near the end of the graph looked like it might make someone scared! You measured to 3GHz, your chinese competitor can measure it to 5GHz then you get screwed out of a sale so then preemptively it get measured to some number you think the other guy can't afford!

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2024, 12:59:07 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 24, 2024, 10:59:07 pmWHat?!No way. 26.5GHz??

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2024, 01:18:47 pm
content: Quote from: Bicurico on March 24, 2024, 09:24:35 pmThe $380,000 price difference can buy you a LOT of training, if needed.

author: NF6X
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 25, 2024, 03:06:29 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 25, 2024, 12:59:07 amYes, really. I had to put commercial products with Bluetooth radios through FCC part 15 certification at my last job. The defense-related products I work on at my current job get tested for radiated immunity up to 40 GHz; EMC testing for a single product can cost over $50k at the outside lab.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2024, 05:30:22 pm
content: Quote from: NF6X on March 25, 2024, 03:06:29 pmThe other people who buy that equipment are, of course, the "outside labs".Theyhaveto own the stuff that nobody else can afford...

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2024, 07:24:37 pm
content: Quote from: NF6X on March 25, 2024, 03:06:29 pmWhy test up to 40GHz?! Are we talking emission or irradiation?

author: NF6X
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 25, 2024, 08:58:22 pm
content: Irradiation (that is, radiated susceptibility). The defense items I've had to have tested so far were only tested for emissions up to 18 GHz, but only because they weren't intentional emitters. If they had antennas, then the radiated emissions requirements would have extended up to 40 GHz.

author: NF6X
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 25, 2024, 09:07:34 pm
content: I should have written more about the why question:For susceptibility, you don't want your electronics to get burned out, your munitions to blow up, or your life support systems to fail when you key up a nearby radio transmitter or get illuminated by a radar, whether the emitters are installed in the same vehicle or just nearby. For emissions, you don't want your electronics to jam nearby radios or radars. Everything has to play well together, while your opponents are trying to kill you at the same time.US military items with EMC requirements are usually required to pass MIL-STD-461 requirements. It's a very tough specification to meet!One commercial device I had to have tested as a plain old FCC part 15 device had problematic spurs from a roughly 16 MHz clock over the limit line all the way up to about 1 GHz. Those high upper limits such as 18 GHz, 26.5 GHz, and 40 GHz are there because harmonics of digital signals cause emissions problems even well beyond the 50th harmonic of the fundamental.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2024, 09:54:45 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 24, 2024, 09:18:55 pmOn the surface, yes, this is just a $400K receiver that does the same job as any number of cheap spectrum analyzers (although I'd put it up against something like the high-end Signal Hound models if I wanted to economize.) But you're paying for the software apps along with the hardware.Also, the ESMD is preselected, all the way down to 8 kHz apparently. If your neighborhood 3-letter agency hooks up their quarter-mile rhombic or Sterba curtain or whatever to the antenna jack, or if the Navy uses it onboard a ship with a powerful radar antenna within rock-throwing distance, the ESMD will still work, while they won't find enough pieces of the spectrum analyzer to send back for warranty repair.Preselection and crunchproof front ends are no joke, particularly at HF-UHF frequencies where you can't just throw a YIG filter or two at it. This box would probably be half the price if its tuning range could start at 1 GHz rather than 8 kHz.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2024, 12:38:14 am
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 24, 2024, 04:55:31 amThe ESMD is primarily used for spectrum monitoring, communications intelligence, and signals intelligence. A lot of customers are mil/gov, but we have civilian customers for the ESMD as well.Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 24, 2024, 04:55:31 amAs spectrum gets more crowded and signals become more challenging (wider bandwidths, frequency hopping and low POI, etc.), radiomonitoring and radiolocation also require greater capability.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2024, 12:43:11 am
content: Quote from: Bicurico on March 24, 2024, 09:24:35 pmI was one of those people who provided support and training on R&S products, including this one (the ESMD). And we didn't charge extra for it

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2024, 12:44:42 am
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on March 24, 2024, 09:43:30 pmYes, yes they do.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2024, 06:55:38 am
content: yes! pdenisowski, coming to the defense of the high end test equipment manufacturers! Love it.Keep making cool stuff, even if I can't afford it....