Windows oscilloscopes  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2020, 02:34:58 pm
content: I borrowed a LeCroy Wavesurfer 44XS scope.I had used LeCroy scopes previously, and know they are very high performing instruments.But never used one with a Windows interface. Windows XP.From a cold start to the time one can actually start manipulating the controls, it takes 6 minutes and 20 seconds to boot.Even after boot, the screen freezes from time to time.I ended returning it and getting another scope.I had previously used another Windows scope, an Agilent if I remember correctly, and had also despised it.What is your experience with Windows scopes?Note, I am not talking about USB scopes like the Pico, but actual stand alone instruments running on a Windows environment.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2020, 03:02:39 pm
content: I have a RTO1024. It takes 90 seconds to boot (Win 7). That's not good. It's also not as bad as many other recent Windows-based scopes, so I count my blessings. Still, I was very happy to see R&S bring the boot times of the RTB/RTM/RTA down to 10-ish seconds and I'm a huge fan of the recent wave of Chinese test equipment that runs on bare metal and boots instantly. Hopefully slow boot times were a phase that we can start to put behind us rather than a neverending rising tide of awfulness.Hey, at least oscilloscopes don't come pre-packaged with candy crush ads. Yet.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 02:01:10 am
content: The problem I see to embed Windows on a piece of equipment, is that the OS may become obsolete while the instrument itself could still be a high performance one.That and the horrendous boot times and the random screen freeze, and an user interface which simply doesn’t feel it responds in real time.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 07:05:24 am
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on October 12, 2020, 02:34:58 pmI own a couple of old Windows scopes and a network analyzer. All three are running an SSD. The 64Xi has been using an SSD for about 5 years now with no problems. The two LeCroys also have more RAM and the faster of the two has a 1Gb Ethernet card which vastly improved data collection times. I have used a few other older Windows based Arbs and scopes. I use Ethernet rather than GPIB to communicate with them and networking is easy. The only exception to this was a Tektronix Arb where they were just starting to learn how to use Ethernet. Performance was so poor, it was faster to use GPIB than Ethernet!!One of my old LeCroy DSOs had Win2k installed. From what I remember, installing XP slowed the boot times but I gained the time back with the SSD. It was a washin the end.Power up boot time for the old LeCory Waverunner 64Xi with added RAM, last version of XP service pack and SSD:At 30 seconds, XP has loadedAt 45 seconds it has initialized the hardwareAt 55 seconds it is triggering and displaying all four waveformsAt 65 seconds it runs the first calibrationIt will then recal a fair amount while it continues to warm up, unless it's not triggering. Then it waits for your trigger to arrive to recal. It's cost me more than once. It's not uncommon for me to force a trigger to make sure the scope is ready to capture. Sound dumb? It is.To say the mechanics of the 64Xi are poor would be an understatement. The plastic continues to erode (it has a hard life sitting on my bench) and the steel is flimsy. What I would expect from a $500 scope. When I got it, the knobs were sloppy and some were missing. LeCroy provided a new set which for the most part have stayed put but one fell off a few months ago that I thought had became a cat toy.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 07:07:56 am
content: Windows has no place on a piece of test equipment IMO. I remember using a scope at work at a former job that booted Windows XP, remember thinking what a kludge it felt like.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 12:42:30 pm
content: My old 7200A with the 486 runs PSOS. Boots fairly fast with a spinning drive.I think the worse thing I used was an Agilent LA 167xx that ran some flavor of UNIX. Maybe HPUX. It not only takes minutes to boot, it can be very sluggish with normal use.What are the new higher end systems using now? I was talking with a friend who had demo'ed a new Keysight VNA a while back and they said it was running Windows 7. Surely they aren't putting 10 on them, or are they?!*****At least for Keysight, looks like they are using 10 in their VNAs. That must be a nightmare.http://na.support.keysight.com/pna/win10-upgrade.html****Looks like Teledyne is also using 10http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/manuals/scope_system_recovery_instructions.pdfAlso appears Keysights Infiniium Z-Series is running Windows.Appears Tektronix uses it as well for their high end Arbs and DSOs.https://www.tek.com/faq/windows-10-version

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 01:06:28 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on October 12, 2020, 02:34:58 pmThis is normal as these scopes came with painfully slow 2.5" Fujitsu and Toshiba hard drives, and if your scope still had the original one then there's also a good chance it was fighting with an increasing number of bad sectors (common for these drives).In addition, LeCroy skimped a bit when it came to RAM (IIRC the WRXs has 256MB standard) and CPU (IIRC a Celeron-M) in these scopes which didn't help.Luckily, these problems are easily fixable with an EIDE SSD, more RAM and a faster CPU, and for little money.QuoteWhich may hint to the hard drive being on its way out.QuoteIf that was one of the early Infiniium generation scopes (548xx Series) then this is understandable, as these scopes came with similarly slow hard drives and little RAM, and on top of came with a clunky UI that was designed for mouse operation.QuoteVery good, actually.Yes, boot times are, even with SSDs, longer than with a cheap embedded platform scope, but considering that any scope only reaches its full spec compliance after a warm-up period (usually around 20mins) who cares? These scopes are made for professional environments where they are normally powered on in the morning and switched off at night (or remain powered 24/7).But Windows allows me to run other software on the scope without the need for a separate PC. We often use MathLab or our own software to perform specialist signal analysis, which even on older LeCroy scopes was made easy thanks to a set of APIs.Then there's mundane stuff like how easy it is to network the scope and access or provide data shares, remotely access the scopes (although embedded scopes got some way to that thanks to their built-in web interface, which is still much slower than RDPing into a Windows scope), or the simple fact that I can access pretty much any size of USB storage media, no matter if it's formatted in FAT32, NTFS or exFAT.QuoteAnd yet no Windows XP based scope stopped working because Microsoft ended all XP support, but instead continues to function as well as it did when XP was still a supported OS.You probably also didn't spend much time thinking in the often creepy software that is lingering in embedded devices, including the crop of cheap embedded platform scopes running some antique version of the Linux kernel with some similar dated versions of other FOSS packages, most of which won't ever see any update.A test instrument, even if it runs Windows, is not a PC, it's a piece of kit that fullfills a function. And it does this no matter if the OS is current or old.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 01:10:12 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on October 13, 2020, 12:42:30 pmActually, they do. Most new instruments that use Windows use a form of Windows 10, usually Windows 10 Embedded/IoT . Which is closer to Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB/LTSC than to the standard Windows 10 Home/Pro variants.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 02:35:26 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 13, 2020, 07:07:56 amYou have lots of Infinium series scopes, they work pretty well ? i would not be scared to use a "windows" scope, sure to boot time could be a nag, and if you have a proper hdd backup, you have some solutions to replace a mecanical drive.ssd or sata dom and ide dom Dom = "disk on module"That would be a good start, ram or motherboard upgrades could help too, but youll never have an instant / ready scope unless it is always powered on ?\i use tons of embedded windows ce6 and windows 7 computers, never had a glitch if they are properly configured, if there are no useless services started ...my 2 cents

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 03:02:20 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on October 13, 2020, 12:42:30 pmWhy wouldn't they? Windows Embedded 7 SP1's extended support ends exactly today, as coincidence would have it (that already being 5 years after mainstream support ended), and the costly extended security update support will end in 3 years. It'd be lunacy to be designing it into new products, especially given that Windows 10 is largely just as good as 7. And in all likelihood, Microsoft wouldn't issue new licenses for it anyway.If anything, I'd say Windows 10 performs a lot better than 7, so I can't see any reason why you wouldn't design new equipment around it, and offer upgrades to it where possible.And nowadays, with fast SSD storage instead of hard disks, a carefully tuned Windows 10 should be able to boot in seconds. So if the company designed the instrument application well, they could have the instrument booting very quickly. (Not that it looks like that's what's done. But in theory they could!)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 08:45:34 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 13, 2020, 01:10:12 pmAnd of those you've used using W10, are the boot times improved from XP/W7 days ?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 09:15:40 pm
content: I would have thought the big players would be working towards a common OS they could maintain rather than letting MS decide their fate. I doubt the combined T&M market does much for MS bottom line. Once the home PC market dries up, hard to believe MS would continue to maintain it. Surely with so much at stake, they must be thinking about it.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 10:13:37 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on October 13, 2020, 09:15:40 pmThat’s a rather odd viewpoint.Windows is so successful in the business market precisely because itisperceived as a stable platform, in the sense of “it’s not going anywhere, and Microsoft will support us long term”. And that perception is based on Microsoft’s long track record of doing just that. Microsoft has proven itself to be a trustworthy supplier of embedded OSes.Vendors of devices with embedded OSes choose their embedded OS based on numerous criteria. Long term support is one. Another is how quickly and easily they can develop their device software, and in this, Windows has a TON going for it, given that the very best of the best development environments are on Windows, and there are gazillions of development tools and libraries available from Microsoft and countless third party vendors, all saving development time.You think the home PC market is going to go away?!? Please lemme know what drugs you’re on, I need to find an escape from reality now and then. In all seriousness, a) there’s no meaningful difference between a standard home PC and a standard office PC, and b) there’s no indication of home computers going away, especially not Windows PCs. Tablets have eroded some use cases for home PCs, but not all, and that’s not changing any time soon. If there is one characteristic one can ascribe to Microsoft, it’s that they want to have a foot in everything. Only catastrophic defeat ever compels them to abandon a market (like phones and music players). As the #1 OS for home and office PCs, what possible incentive would they have to abandon that market, the one that is the linchpin of their entire empire?!!

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 10:38:01 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on October 13, 2020, 09:15:40 pmThe home PC may be in decline, but the same is not true for the business market. So Windows is unlikely to go away anytime soon. It is becoming more of a platform for selling their cloud services though and it is maybe not quite clear where Windows Embedded fits with this strategy (now rebranded as "Windows IoT Enterprise"). It still comes with 10+ years (extended) support life, so they wouldn't stop maintaining that tomorrow either.Quote from: joeqsmith on October 13, 2020, 09:15:40 pmFunnily enough, HP/Agilent had some instruments running their own UNIX flavour (HP-UX; although the OS itself wasn't developed by the T&M division). I think I have never waited longer for anything to boot, felt like 15 minutes.These days, it would be hard to make the case for maintaining your own OS. If you run full-blown PC hardware and don't want to (or can't) use Windows, Linux is the obvious choice.But Windows is still a solid choice for high-end, low-volume T&M instruments. The cost of the license is negligible for something that costs several 10000€. You can just use a standard industrial mainboard, no need to design your own PC. Boot time from an SSD is not that bad (and potentially way less than warm-up, self-test and cal times anyway). Users are already familiar with it and can install their own custom analysis software. And the remote PC software and the on-device UI can share components and be developed by the same team using the same tools.If you want to hedge your bets as a manufacturer, the best way will probably be to follow good programming practices and make your software modular, so you can reuse as much as possible when you port to a new OS (or just the next model with new hardware).

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 12:19:07 am
content: I would think the large companies would work together to form a standard OS they would all use. Of course, the hardware would go away as well so they may want to start working towards a common platform. Maybe Fortive will take over all of the T&M companies, forcing the companies to work together. Then again, is there even a market for high end equipment anymore? Maybe the low end equipment with it's fast boot times is good enough. 2020 has taught us we don't need the majority of the work force, so there's little need for office PCs.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 12:37:53 am
content: No part of that makes sense.If anything, COVID has demonstrated that a lot more work can be done by telecommuting than bosses would like to admit. And how’s that done? On office PCs. Just because it’s a laptop doesn’t make it any less of an office PC.High end test gear? Nah, who needs it now. We’ll just design those multi-ten-gigabit signal paths by gut intuition. Seriously, what on earth would make you think we don’t need it? If anything, we need more of it now than ever.And what possible incentive do the T&M companies have to collaborate on an OS? That makes literally no sense. Collaborating on a common hardware platform makes even less sense.Not that there is even the slightest shadow of a chance that PC hardware will go away, as you bizarrely believe.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 12:45:39 am
content: You think those people are doing anything from home besides golfing? You don't need a PC to golf. You need golf clubs and maybe a golf cart. Nothing too high tech.In a short time we have gone from computers being humans, to mainframes, to workstations and now some sort of toy PC thing. We have had countless OSs come and go. Things will continue to change.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 04:58:24 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on October 14, 2020, 12:19:07 amThat doesn't make sense. At its peak the unemployment rate was what, 10% Maybe 15% The vast majority of that being the service industry, things like hotels, cruise ships, airlines, bars, clubs, and other "non-essential" stuff. I've been working from home full time since March and I'm certainly not just goofing off, if anything I spend more time actually working than I do when I'm in the office because I don't waste over 2 hours a day commuting. We use our PCs as much as always at work, and rely on them even more due to the fact that all of the meetings are online instead of face to face.The ubiquitous office tool we don't need anymore is desk phones. I haven't had one of those the entire time at this job, and even at the job before that they felt like anachronisms of a former era. I always hated it when a colleague would call me instead of just sending me an instant message or email.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 08:29:43 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on October 14, 2020, 12:45:39 amWeknowthey're not just at home golfing because the work is getting done.Are you attempting to joke, or do you actually believe what you wrote? Because if you do believe it… oh man…Quote from: joeqsmith on October 14, 2020, 12:45:39 amChangeyes. But PCs aren't just going todisappear. Windows isn't just going to disappear. Mainframes haven't disappeared, either (your bank still runs them, and IBM is happy to keep supplying them).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 09:36:04 am
content: Quote from: tooki on October 14, 2020, 08:29:43 amWindows is basically becoming "free" for home users and Microsoft is working hard to add stuff that makes Linux users feel at home. It's not going anywhere soon.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 10:00:44 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on October 14, 2020, 12:45:39 amMy time reporting sheet would like to have a word with you.And it's not just me. The average productivity didn't go down for us.Of course some areas improved, while other worsened.So much that the company is starting to think long term and even providing some home office furniture (desks, etc.) in addition to the usual IT stuff (monitors, KB&M ec.).

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 10:17:23 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 13, 2020, 01:06:28 pmIt might very well be so. But the problem is that to get any positive use out of the inclusion of a general purpose computing operating system on an instrument, you have to connect it to a network (unless you want to play sneakernet, ofc.) and then the scope becomes part of the largest machine on earth, the Internet. The Internet does not look fondly on old unmaintained OSes, but uses them for evil things.It is enough that the share you're dumping your data on is also browsable by Mike in Marketing, who plays illegal poker on his company laptop, for bad things to happen.This, of course, also applies to any embedded system. Which is because the "S" in "IOT" stands for security.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 10:17:42 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 14, 2020, 09:36:04 amYep. And it’s not as though Linux ever posed a threat to Windows on the desktop, especially at home. The percentage of home users running Linux as their desktop OS is vanishingly small. (EEVblog being a community of engineers and geeks is not a representative sample, and even here, Windows is undoubtedly the dominant home OS.)The only true threats to Windows at home are macOS and iOS/iPadOS. (And to a much lesser extent, chromebooks, which are distanced enough from their Linux kernel as to not really count as Linux.)

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 10:45:47 am
content: I would assume the companies have setup each employee with their own personal lab consisting of this high end Windows based test equipment we are talking about. That, or these people don't really need it. Let's assume they don't as I have not seen any indication there was a boom in the high end T&M market. Perhaps this group has made careers based on one OS in particular. It makes sense they would be upset thinking it could all go away overnight, just like Yahoo groups.Quote from: james_s on October 14, 2020, 05:39:11 amThere may be some very small group of people who actually need the high end equipment. With Teledyne rebranding low end products to stay in business, that group must be basically zero.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 11:08:33 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 14, 2020, 09:36:04 amNothing is free. Guessing the data they collect has value. You see little value in your own personal data so for you it's free.I wonder if we will continue to see more headless high end the test equipment. As we remove the UI, is there any advantage to Windows?Quote from: mansaxel on October 14, 2020, 10:17:23 amWhy do you feel that placing the equipment on a network automatically makes it part of the Internet?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 01:50:12 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 13, 2020, 08:45:34 pmMostly, yes, thanks to the prevalence of SSDs. It's generally still longer than for embedded platform instruments, though, mostly due to POST and hardware checks/initialization.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 02:02:00 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on October 13, 2020, 09:15:40 pmI doubt it.First of all, Windows has one of the most versatile software development environments, plus a large set of stable APIs (something Linux lacks). Pretty much everyone can put together a Windows application, in a wide range of programming languages.In addition, Windows has the by far largest repository of ISV software, which includes pretty much all of the commonly used engineering and science applications out there. And while many (like Mathlab) are also available for other platforms, not all of them are.On top of that, Microsoft has a proven track record of being a reliable OS vendor for hardware vendors like T&M manufacturers.I really wish there were PC-based instruments running a full installation of a proper version of Linux (i.e. RHEL/CentOS or SUSE), but there aren't simply because Windows is the easier choice to push out a working product in reasonable time frame.QuoteNo, but the market for Windows 10 Embedded/IoT is a lot larger than just the T&M market, and makes MS quite a bit of money they are unlikely to give up on.QuoteThe home PC market consists of mostly two groups: regular users who just buy the cheapest PC they can find at Bestbuy (or just replace their old PC with an iPad), and the "ethusiasts" who tend to spend more but are a tiny niche which also has been constantly shrinking.You really think MS cares much about the "home PC market" when the real money maker are the millions of business PCs in companies all around the globe? In addition to all the server and backend products like Exchange, that is.The home market hasn't been a priority for MS for two decades.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 02:32:28 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on October 14, 2020, 12:19:07 amWhat for? The costs of Windows for a T&M manufacturer are negligible, as are the hardware costs for the PC part.What's not negligible however would be the cost to develop another "standard" OS, plus developing all the IDEs and toolkits that are already available on Windows.QuoteYeah, right, because that worked so well for Tektronix under Danaher (another one of those "focused industrial growth companies like Fortive).QuoteSure, if your demands are similarly basic.When low end equipment can handle signals over 70GHz with analysis BWs of >1GHz while costing the same as low end kit does today then we can talk about the lack of market for high end instruments.I doubt I will live to see that day, though.QuoteOf course, but the extend of that varies a lot between countries.For example, my colleagues and myself have been off work for two weeks because of the pandemic. And I'm not even working in the medical field or anything that's related to health care.From what I know most of people that were hit hard and found themselves without work are from sectors like hospitality or manufacturing, rarely jobs that are performed working on a PC.As to not needing office PCs:https://www.wsj.com/articles/pc-demand-during-pandemic-drives-strongest-u-s-market-growth-in-a-decade-11602537956

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 02:53:21 pm
content: Quote from: mansaxel on October 14, 2020, 10:17:23 amNot really. That's not how this works in real life.First of all, any Windows based instrument works just fine without being ever connected to the network. In fact, many Windows based test instruments are not networked at all. You don't need a network to run Mathlab or other software on the instrument.And those instrument that are connected to a network are usually only connected to a dedicated LAN, but even if that's not the case then they aren't granted access to the open internet.Besides, you seem to live under the illusion that if a test instrument doesn't run Windows it must be safe. Well, it isn't. A couple of years ago some researcher took a look at a cheap embedded Siglent scope and found that many of the components in the Linux image were borderline antique and exhibited long fixed security holes to the network. You really think any other embedded platform device is any better? Think again.The bottom line is that only an imcompetent moron would allow a test instrument (*any* test instrument) access to or access from the open internet. It's a simple as that.Luckily, for the most part, people in engineering businesses which tend to buy these Windows based instruments aren't idiots and understand at least the basics of network security, so test instruments are not granted internet access and are only made available from outside when absolutely necessary, and then still only through a VPN.QuoteSee above. In general, Mike in Marketing should never have access to the engineering network in the first place, and if he has then the responsible network admin needs a hefty kick in the balls before being fired for incompetence.In any case, Windows on a test instrument isn't any worse security-wise than any non-Windows instrument.

author: robert.rozee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 02:59:42 pm
content: wow, reading some of the postings in this thread makes me feel like we are back in 1990, when i was in my 20'sQuote from: tooki on October 14, 2020, 10:17:42 amin the year 2020, the number of average people running a 'desktop' is shrinking. people sit at home browsing the web on their phones, tablets, and even TVs. they have IoT appliances from google and amazon that provide spoken answers to spoken questions using giant banks of remote computers sitting in data centres.lets add up the number of computers in the average 2020 home:- there will be a couple of TVs, running linux,- chances are there will be at least one set-top box or satellite decoder, which will be running linux,- each household member will have a cellphone, running either linux or a BSD unix variant (iOS),- the broadband internet connection will be handled by a fibre wireless router (+firewall), running linux,- if anyone in the household has a digital camera, there is a 50/50 chance it will be running linux,- can any of the household members still read? if so, there may be a kindle ereader or two, running linux.- other PC peripherals, such as printers. pretty much all run linux these days.i've not included all the small appliances: car GPS navigation system, microwave oven, air conditioning systems with 'smart' interfaces. yep, most of them will have linux hidden under the hood. oh, and the smart power meter installed by the electricity company - linux too!sitting in the corner theremaybe, perhaps, a PC. it may run osX, or it may run win10. if it runs win10 it will almost certainly be downloading an update from microsoft at this very moment. even if it was turned off by the last person who used it, it will have turned itself back on to download more updates.of all the computers in a home, the PC sitting in the corner thatmay(a 50/50 chance) be running win10 is likely the computer that the inhabitantsleastcare about.Dear Microsoft,the world has passed you by. thanks for all the fish.cheers,rob :-)ps, we could next tackle the assertion that most computers in the world use intel/AMD processors. clue: there are 130 billion ARM processors out there, with close to zero running windows in any shape, sense, or form.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 03:41:01 pm
content: Quote from: robert.rozee on October 14, 2020, 02:59:42 pmMostly correct (most car entertainment systems use something else than Linux, e.g. QNX; and Android tablets have mostly dried outr out which for the most part leaves the tablet market with Windows and iPadOS). There are a lot of computers running Linux. Most of it in embedded devices with no or a limited user interface.It's not even a new thing, this has been the case for many years. Linux has long held a strong position in the embedded market.QuoteNo, it won't. A PC that has been shut down will not turn on by itself to download an update, that's BS.QuoteMaybe. Maybe not. Lots of people do "stuff" on a PC, and not everyone is satisfied with the very limited experience embedded devices or tablets (especially non-iPad ones) provide. PCs are still bought and used by home users, to an extend that justifies designing and manufacturing a wide range of new models for sale.In any case, none of this is really relevant for the topic of this thread.QuoteSure thing, let's all just put the fingers in our ears and ignore that MS' predominant revenue stream has been from businesses, not home users, for more than two decades. And while we're at it, lets just also ignore that MS is now making more money than ever.That will work.QuoteThat is somewhat correct (a lot of ARM devices out there actually do run Windows, either WinCE or some of Wind10 builds; MS makes a lot of money with Surface tablets which all run Windows).But as before, I fail to see the relevance to the topic of this thread (which are Windows based test instruments).

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 04:04:56 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 14, 2020, 02:53:21 pmThe part you quote doesvery carefully not mention any specific OS. That you read "windows is worse" into it is an interpretation that is fully yours.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 14, 2020, 02:53:21 pmWell, in terms of network security they are functional idiots and incompetent morons. My 20+ years experience of enterprise networking has given me a string of incidental evidence supporting this.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 14, 2020, 02:53:21 pmFirst; what you are basing your assumptions on is an idealised world view where people are competent and there is time enough to get things right, and on top of that these things are more important than bottom line and manager buttock integrity.Second; if the instrument is not networked, it will indeed be safer by a broad margin. If the instrument is networked, it is probably insignificant which OS it runs; because h/w engineers (who typically build and specify instruments) are as bad at network security as software or network engineers are with building hardware.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 05:25:36 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on October 12, 2020, 02:34:58 pmits unfair to compare something that came from age 2005 with what we have today. in 2005 WinXP/W2000 is King! and we learnt Windows will degrade performance and longer boot time after few years of usage thats why we learnt to diy restoration files (backup) of freshly installed OS. degraded HDD is another thing, you are lucky to even enter Windows from 2005 HDD (this applies to anything with old HDD inside it such as PC)... when i first got my SDA6000, its Win2000 booted from button push to dso traces display in about 2 minutes from i guess its original PATA HDD manufacturing date 2003 (i still keep the timing video here). when i upgrade with a bit faster (but still old) cpu+motherboard and SSD, fresh install WinXP and DSO softwares etc, dso traces display in about 45 seconds (20 seconds to Windows Dektop display) from button press. i just checked back and timed my 2 years old installation just now.now i'm all for most modern "high ranking GHz grade" DSOs today and all the goodies, except the price... when checking all the features, everything ticks until to near 99% mark decision to buy, but when looking at price tag, the marking goes down to -100%. this applies to me to all brands including Rigol 8000 series. if you can afford 5 or 6 figures just to get a machine that can boot in 1-10 seconds by all means go for it,cheers.Quote from: schmitt trigger on October 13, 2020, 02:01:10 amor put it this way... is that the instrument may become obsolete while the OS itself could still be a high performance one. either way, a 2005 machine or OS whatever, is inevitably an obsolete piece of metal. tell me any brand that still support their 15-20 years old product? you may consider that brand in your next purchase. ymmv.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 06:39:28 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on October 14, 2020, 10:45:47 amThat's hardly news as it's been happening for a nearly a decade that I'm aware of.More I believe it allows LeCroy to focus on high end products where themselves and HPAK have been going at it for just as long.

author: ElectronMan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 09:22:38 pm
content: Quote from: mansaxel on October 14, 2020, 04:04:56 pmFWIW, in my work environment where we have PCI audits and regular penetration testing, Windows systems (servers and PC versions) require a massive amount of work to keep secured. The attack surface of a Windows system is very large with all the network services running by default. Modern Windows OSes expect to be able to talk to the Internet and nearby computers and are constantly communicating.For our Linux boxes, it is a matter of making sure SSH is properly secured and the OS is up to date. Everything else on those boxes relates to the applications being run on them, not the OS.Linux systems in default configurations have significantly less exploitable surface area than Windows 10 out of the box. A lot of embedded vendors ruin this by enabling telnet or SSH with an easy root password though. I have not tested Windows 10 embedded, but I'd hope it would be a lot better about this.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 09:37:42 pm
content: Quote from: robert.rozee on October 14, 2020, 02:59:42 pmThere are still something like a billion PCs in use today, including both business and home use, 90% of those still run Windows. Linux owns the embedded market and the server market but Windows is not going away any time soon. There have always been a lot of people who never really needed a PC, they only needed to use the web and a PC was the only way to do that. Those are the people whose needs are now met by mobile devices but there are still more people using PCs at home today than there ever were in the pre-internet PC boom. Microsoft still owns the corporate world as well, there is less focus on Windows but Office is still the defacto standard and then they have all of their other offerings, I don't see this changing in the foreseeable future. Every company I have ever worked for uses MS Office.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 09:42:25 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on October 12, 2020, 02:34:58 pmNo problems with them. There are some performance tweaks though. Put an SSD in, add as much memory as the motherboard supports, disable the swap file (Windows will use swap which causes a considerable slow down even if there is more than enough memory) and don't install any other software on it. Treat it as an instrument and not a Windows PC.Security isn't an issue for as long as you don't connect it to internet directly (IOW: if you get a public IP address on the device itself). But a sane person won't connect any device to internet directly; the days internet providers offered such types of connections are long gone as well. Personally I don't run test equipment using a network connection. I only connect an instrument to my network when it is needed.

author: GnatGoSplat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 10:48:34 pm
content: Quote from: robert.rozee on October 14, 2020, 02:59:42 pmDoesn't sound like very many people here are PC gamers. Ever heard of PC Master Race?Desktop PCs are still very much alive in the PC gaming space. My 20-something coworkers are often talking about the latest/greatest desktop PC hardware. They frequently share links to videos from popular Youtubers like Gamers Nexus, JayZTwoCents, and LinusTechTips, whose primary focus is PC gaming and PC hardware. They have subscriber counts in the millions, 12M in the case of Linus. Most games still require Windows 10.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 11:03:36 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 14, 2020, 03:41:01 pmThere's a blast from the past. I think the last time I had to use QNX was in the mid 90s.QuoteHow's it worked out for LeCroy after Teledyne took them over? Oh wait, they now sell rebranded low end equipment. That's a step in the right direction.Quote from: tautech on October 14, 2020, 06:39:28 pmBig changes seldom happen overnight. If Teledyne needs to rebrand low end equipment to focus on the high end products, something is wrong. Why damage the brand just to try and peddle something that is commonly available from lower end sources?I tried to find out what CopperMountain is using in their VNAs but no luck. They don't support standard peripherals like a PC would have and require a connection to a LINUX or Windows PC to run. I suspect we will see more equipment decouple from the PC world as the interfaces become less of a bottleneck. We are already seeing a fair amount of lower end equipment running headless.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2020, 11:35:58 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on October 14, 2020, 11:03:36 pmWell maybe you aren't aware of the relationship between Siglent and LeCroy in as much detail as is otherwise widely known.In 2014 when I visited the Siglent factory I had the chance to play with a SDS3000, then it was a new model we have never seen in the west other than in LeCroy colors and even some years before that LeCroy were rebranding Siglents scopes and AWG's.The SDS/WS3000 was a collaborative project with Siglent doing the HW to LeCroy's requirements and LeCroy SW ran on them.Fast forward to today and another collaborative project is in the build, Siglent's SDS6000 Pro featuring 10 and 12 bit models at this time which are reserved for LeCroy to market in the west while we will probably only see 8 bit versions in Siglent colors sometime in the distant future.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds6000-pro-10-and-12-bit-dso-coming/So no, not all that LeCroy choose to have made elsewhere are available from the OEM.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2020, 12:47:05 am
content: Quote from: GnatGoSplat on October 14, 2020, 10:48:34 pmI was a heavy gamer maybe 20 years ago, but a combination of a few years working in the game industry and getting older mostly cured me of that. Today PC gaming is popular, but not really significant in terms of quantity compared with other computing devices. Either way I mostly lump desktops and laptops into the same category. They have different physical packages but they are essentially the same thing.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2020, 01:21:42 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 14, 2020, 11:35:58 pmSorry but I missed your point. As I said, these changes don't happen overnight.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2020, 01:54:10 am
content: Quote from: mansaxel on October 14, 2020, 10:17:23 amThere's no "S" in "IOT", LOL!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2020, 02:01:30 am
content: Quote from: robert.rozee on October 14, 2020, 02:59:42 pmTrue, but those "Alexa" people mostly didn't have a PC before they got their smart speakers.PS: I don't know a single student without a laptop or two.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2020, 02:02:51 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on October 14, 2020, 11:08:33 amMe? The first thing I do is download Firefox, turn off the Cortana service and block bing.com in my hosts file.

author: ElectronMan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2020, 02:28:28 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 15, 2020, 01:54:10 amThat's why I invented Intrusion Detection for Internet Of ThingsIt practically markets itself!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2020, 06:45:38 am
content: Quote from: mansaxel on October 14, 2020, 04:04:56 pmI guess you're right, but that may have something to do with that this exactly what this thread is aboutQuote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 14, 2020, 02:53:21 pmFirst; what you are basing your assumptions on is an idealised world view where people are competent and there is time enough to get things right, and on top of that these things are more important than bottom line and manager buttock integrity. It's based on approaching three decades working in this area around the globe. And it's done this way because everyone in the chain is aware taht it's a bad idea and that, considering the kind of data we work with, the penalties for *not* following these rules can be devastating both on a commercial and on a personal level.I appreciate that there's a fair bunch of idiot managers out there but frankly if you have to deal with them then you already lost, and what OS runs on your scope is probably the least of your problemsQuoteExactly. So it looks we agree

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2020, 07:11:34 am
content: Quote from: ElectronMan on October 14, 2020, 09:22:38 pmSame here, but the real work is primarily on the servers. Standard Windows since XP SP3 is pretty tight from the outside and needs little work to lock it down (which we do through GPOs and deployment of additional utilities so it's not that we have to manually tighten down every Windows PC).Servers are a different thing but then they are, after all,serverswhich to fullfil their purpose require a series of network services. And that is no different if the server runs Windows or Linux.QuoteYes, the standard versions (W10 Home/Pro/Workstation), not the LTSB/LTSC and Embedded/IoT variants.QuoteThat's only true for when your Linux box doesn't run anything else than sshd. Try to run some application and you'll see a number of additional services coming online which all increase the attack surface.QuoteThat may well be the case, but these "default configurations" (whatever they are, considering the vast amount of Linux distros which all interpret what "default config" is differently) also have a lot less functionality. It's a trade-off, no matter what the OS is.And considering that Win10 Home/Pro is for consumers most and foremost, it's not exactly suerprising that it rather offers more functionality than the business oriented variants (Enterprise, LTSB/LTSC) or the Embedded/IoT variants.And I'm not even touching the fact that Windows offers a much finer granularity in terms of security controls and permissions than Linux (which is still mostly file-based, although there at least are ACLs now), and has been so for 25 years.At the end of the day the security of a system depends much more on the competence of whoever configures it than the underlying OS.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2020, 07:18:35 am
content: Quote from: james_s on October 14, 2020, 09:37:42 pmI think it also depends a lot what you consider when looking at servers. For example, most web servers run on Linux but the majority of businesses from SMBs to global enterprises run their complete backoffice on Windows and Exchange. It's the de-facto standard.QuoteIndeed, which is simply because it ties in so well with Exchange, SharePoint and all the other backoffice products Microsoft offers.It also doesn't hurt that the alternatives for Office still suck so much.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2020, 07:39:26 am
content: Quote from: GnatGoSplat on October 14, 2020, 10:48:34 pmWell, I am a gamer (although it's often difficult to find time for gaming).QuoteMore often than I'd like to.QuoteThat might be true, but the reality is that this is just a small part of the overall PC market, and on top of that is shrinking.YT followers don't reflect the reality that most PC gamers do so with standard run-off-the-mill hardware, not the latest and greatest. Modern games are predominantly targeted at consoles, and while they have become quite powerful, the result is that the majority of AAA titles run just fine on mid-range PC hardware. Combine this with the fact that GPU prices have skyrocketed when miners bought the market empty and still haven't reverted to more sane levels, it's not difficult to see why the whole "enthusiast" space (i.e. people building their own PCs) has been in constant decline.Today the return value of spending $1300 for a high end card like the RTX 3080 is pretty small. And instead of spening money for overpriced PC hardware, gamers tend to rather get themselves one or both of the major consoles so hey can also play the platform exclusives that exist for them.My own gaming PC (a HP z620 workstation using a single XEON E5-2667v2) is now 6 years old, and until 6 months ago was still rocking my old Geforce GTX 770 4GB and Windows 8.1 (now replaced by a RTX 2060 Super and Windows 10). I yet have to see any game I can't run at my monitor's resolution (2560x1080, 21:9) in high to max details and at a sufficient frame rate.And I'm not alone in this.

author: GnatGoSplat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2020, 02:33:52 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 15, 2020, 07:39:26 amThe statistics Google is serving me don't seem to reflect that PC gaming is shrinking. PC gaming appears to be growing at a faster rate than console, in terms of revenue.https://www.kiriludos.com/pc-gaming-dying/https://www.wepc.com/statistics/pc-gaming/In market share, yes, it's shrinking, but console is also shrinking at a similar rate. PC gaming isn't losing market share to console; both PC and console are losing market share to mobile gaming.Its decline is slow enough, there will be a PC enthusiast market for a long time. Just my anecdotal opinion is that the resurgence of AMD has breathed new life into a PC enthusiast market that had been stagnant for some time. I was rocking a 6yr old AMD FX-8320e system and had no interest in upgrading until AMD's Ryzen 3000-series drove Intel to lower their prices so much that I finally bit the bullet and upgraded to an i7 9700K last year.PCs in general, gaming and not, is also doing pretty well.https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/12/gartner-us-pc-market-just-had-its-best-quarter-in-10-years.htmlThe US has seen its fastest PC growth in a decade.

author: ElectronMan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2020, 03:00:11 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 15, 2020, 07:11:34 amThat really kind of misses my point. Yes, you have to secure more on a Linux box when you install new apps and services. But the point is that the OS, by itself, doesn't open RPC ports (notorious for exploit-ability, but SMB is based on it) and have all manner of services talking on the network BEFORE you install your apps. The Eternal Blue and other types of exploits used by the NSA take advantage of networked RPC services being very complex, and therefore very tough to harden. NFS in Linux uses RPC as well, but it is not usually enabled by default. This means the OS has less surface area, and you mostly have to worry about securing your applications. There is some variation in different distros, but I have yet to see one that matches all the networked-services and open ports on a Windows fresh install.File system security features are something Windows has that is better out of the box, but kind of irrelevant to the point I was making (network attack surface area). I was discussing vulnerability to outside network threats and not so much local exploits. One of the reasons Windows has such "granularity" of security controls is because it needs them. I'd be interested to know what you think can't be secured in Linux the way you can in Windows.Of course none of this may matter at all when talking about embedded OSes. Someone else mentioned one of the upsides to Windows on an instrument was easy file sharing. This would either require a full OS version or that the embedded OS have all the dreaded RPC-based file services activated.In the end I agree that it matters more how competently it is configured. However, the simple fact is that at the OS-level Linux gives a much more secure starting point than Windows. Different OS philosophies.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2020, 04:03:31 pm
content: Quote from: robert.rozee on October 14, 2020, 02:59:42 pmSo what?!?Despite phones and tablets taking over many of the roles historically filled by home PCs (by which I mean computers running a traditional mouse-based desktop OS, like Windows, macOS, or a Linux desktop, regardless of whether it's a laptop or desktop system, and to the express exclusion of tablets, phones, etc.), the percentage of households that own a PChas not shrunk whatsoever. (Whathashappened is a radical shift from desktops to laptops, with laptops now commanding the lion's share.) There may come a day when tablets actually cause people to not buy desktop PCs any more, but that day is not here yet. There are still too many things that require a full desktop OS.So, with your premise that people don't use PCs anymore debunked, let's move back to the fact that the laundry list of gadgets you list, with their embedded OSes, do not haveanythingto do with my claim, which is that Linux continues to make no inroads into the home market for desktop OSes.And for what it's worth, embedded OSes besides Linux remain widespread, even if their share is indubitably shrinking. But they've certainly not gone away. Embedded OSes are often used when smaller resource requirements, extra security and/or real-time functionality is desired. Yes, there are Linux distros that focus on that, but there are mature embedded OSes that are used widely for low-resource environments, hardened environments or when a hard real-time OS is needed. (Like… no, most microwaves don't run Linux. They likely don't run an OSat all.)

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2020, 05:41:53 pm
content: Quote from: robert.rozee on October 14, 2020, 02:59:42 pmI would love to know how many of those systems were developed in all-linux manufacturing companies...

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 09:05:40 am
content: Quote from: GnatGoSplat on October 15, 2020, 02:33:52 pmYou are right, but then I didn't say the PC gaming market is shrinking, but that the market for gaming PCs is shrinking.There's a difference.QuoteThat's great, AMD has had a strong hold of the Enthusiasts market for a long time, also because it still faces difficulties getting a solid foot into the vast market for business PCs.But that doesn't change the fact that the Enthusiast market has been and still is shrinking, and that AMD's focus is solidly focused at the business market which has better margins and higher numbers.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 09:37:52 am
content: Quote from: ElectronMan on October 15, 2020, 03:00:11 pmMaybe (although I'm not so sure that it's me who missed the point), but it's nevertheless true.QuoteNot really:https://blog.smallsec.ca/default-open-ports-in-windows/As a matter of fact, a default Windows installation is pretty tightly closed from the outside.QuoteWhat you don't seem to understand is that explots like these target services which are normally enabled/used on the actual target. Because on a default Windows installation RPC isn't accessible from the network side.And if we talk about WannaCry, let's also not forget that a pretty similar issue was also hidden in SAMBA:https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2017/05/26/samba-exploit-not-quite-wannacry-for-linux-but-patch-anyway/On it's own the flaw isn't easily exploitable, but combined with other attacks (e.g. social engineering or using another exploit in SAMBA or any other piece of software) it's dangerous.And this is just one of the many security flaws in SAMBA that have been found over the years, a number of which were pretty serious:https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-102/product_id-171/Samba-Samba.htmlThe real problem with the NSA exploits was that they were held back by the agency instead of being reported to MS to fix them.QuoteAs demonstrated above, your assumptions aren't rooted in reality.QuoteIt's not just about file systems, Windows allows for very granular control of user permissions on almost every level (for example services or OS controls) while Linux still mostly relies on the outdated owner-group-world permission model.Linux got ACLs, and there are now tools to replicate what for example GPOs can do, but the platform itself is still mostly stuck in the dark ages. Which doesn't mean you can't lock things down, it just means it can get messy because Linux security is largely dependent on file access privileges.QuoteMost Windows-based instruments (excluding those based on embedded platforms running WinCE or something like that) come with a mostly full installation of Windows.QuoteAnd as demonstrated above, that is mostly wishful thinking.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 10:27:00 am
content: when there is "Windows" in the title, it will always lead to "PC market is shrinking", Linux now is the king bla bla... bottom line is Lecroy's engineers are stupid, Bill Gates is stupid... now lets find Linux 400 - 4000 MHz DSO at $2500, its expanding...

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 10:32:13 am
content: This thread as shifted in discutions, now its a war of linux, windows, pc gaming, rant etc ...Close this thread