Silicon Valley invests $120 Mill. in $400 juicer that works as well as hands - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 12:59:25 am
content: Quotehttps://youtu.be/5lutHF5HhVA

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 02:16:09 am
content: A pair of scisors from a dollar store is all you need, just cut the juce pack neck or punch a hole, why go to squeezing efforts.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 02:32:49 am
content: In other words, thanks to marketing, you can make people buy an overpriced "cloud connected" gadget that works only with proprietary DRM'd cartridges and ultimately creates more waste. I bet the company is going to "redesign" or "revamp" or whatever other buzzwordy marketing terms are popular today these packages to make them harder to operate by hand, and then claim it's "better"...Quote

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 02:43:51 am
content: Quote from: Bud on April 20, 2017, 02:16:09 amTo be fair, I think the bags have slices of fruit that have to be squeezed to get the juice, But come on - I can easily use ancient technology such as my grandmothers rolling pin to squeeze the bag.I say that as I confess to making coffee with K-cups ...

author: jm_araujo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 10:35:41 am
content: It has been discussed previously by Dave in The Amp Hour a couple of months ago:http://theamphour.com/321-monster-scale-production/Edit: and also here:http://theamphour.com/327-an-interview-with-avidan-ross/I think it was because of this article who covers it in some detail:http://liesandstartuppr.blogspot.com/2016/08/how-is-this-thing.html

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 10:59:33 am
content: Real thing, and don't require internet and presqueezed bags. As if there were just cut fruits and vegetables, you wouldn't be able to squeeze by hands.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 11:25:44 am
content: These juicer kale-heads are the modern audiophiles.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 10:50:44 pm
content: PPPPFFFFT! That ain't a juicer! Let's show this utter pile ofwhat it means to be juiced!Is Hydraulic Press Action anywhere here?

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 08:17:49 am
content: Piece of junk compared to the Juice Loosener."It's whisper quiet!"

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 09:26:56 am
content: According to the BBC they're now giving refunds:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39664483"Chief executive Jeff Dunn said the criticism overlooked the "experience" of the machine.He claimed the "hacking" of the pouches did not produce the same quality of juice. saying the machine was calibrated to deal with different ingredients differently.But Juicero has now given customers the chance to return the machine and get their money back, including those who bought it at its launch price of $699."This bit made me laugh especially:"Mr Dunn said that because each pouch of fruit and vegetables was individually tagged, the firm could remotely disable them"

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 10:04:32 am
content: Packs: Starting at $29.99 per weekly 5-Pack BundleThis remids me. If I buy raspberrys at the store, I pay 3 EUR for 100g. If I buy them frozen, it is 3 EUR for 1KG. They ask for 30 dollars for ~1kg of fruit, please subscribe, and buy our 400 EUR fruit juicer.I've seen someone making a kickstarter, to use sun and wind energy to dry clothes.The world has gone insane.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 10:17:58 am
content: QuoteHere is a contraption that works in the shade as well:

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 10:26:30 am
content: Well: That’s what you get, when you cut funds in the education sector...

author: Sredni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 10:44:38 am
content: You guys do not understand!This is a machine aimed at vegetarian and vegan people.They do not have the strength to squeeze those bags themselves.Seriously, this overpriced marketing might have its reason to exist for older and/or debilitated people. Think someone with arthritis. That would be useful to them. Especially if they need to reassure themselves about their status. "Look, I can spend hundreds of dollars on a juicener".For me the big no-no is the proprietary format of the squeezable material.But I'm the kind of person who would go to Brazil to pick his own coffee to toast and grind before even thinking of buying one of those coffe machines that require proprietary capsules.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 11:20:31 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 21, 2017, 09:26:56 amI see, that's their business model. The next step after ink and toner cartridges with chips is full remote control of consumables to make sure that the customer buys only the overpriced genuine refill packs. And if the customer posts a bad review, the juicer or pouches of a specific flavour will be disabled remotely. No wonder that investors have put so much money into that. The only downside is that tiny design error.PS: I prefer fresh fruits and vegetables from the family's garden.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 11:46:12 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 21, 2017, 09:26:56 amI already imagine a bright future. Government structures can disable all of the food for you, if you don't play with them well.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 11:46:58 am
content: Quote from: Sredni on April 21, 2017, 10:44:38 amWell if I lived in Antarctica I would too.(look at his country flag)

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 12:03:25 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 21, 2017, 09:26:56 amThat is hilarious, but if you think about it, refunding the machine still means they get to profit from purchases of the overpriced "cartridges" which people can still "juice" themselves.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 12:15:22 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on April 21, 2017, 12:03:25 pmNo, you can only buy the 'cartridges' if you own a machine.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 12:16:15 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 21, 2017, 09:26:56 amComedy GOLD!

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 12:16:49 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on April 21, 2017, 12:03:25 pmRight, It's like a Swiffer or something like it. The point is not to make a lot of money on the Swiffer hardware (the metal stick thingy that holds the Swiffer refill). The point is to get something into the consumer's hands that requires arefill, which gets used up over and over. You'd want to get as many juice sqeezer machines out as fast and as cheap as possible and sell the refills. Then screw the consumer over with high-priced refills, preferable with a microchip that doesn't allow anyone else's refills.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 01:16:27 pm
content: I just got the best business idea ever. Internet of things toilet with monthly subscription fee. Only proprietary toilet paper allowed and every roll has it's own RFID, authenticity verified on the cloud. 3D results get automatically uploaded to Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc, so you spare your time doing it manually.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 01:31:45 pm
content: I wondered what happens to the waste once the bag has been squeezed dry, but according to their web site, that's covered too. I kid ye not:"Once pressed, the pulp inside can be eaten (our preference)"Source:https://www.juicero.com/the-packs/

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 01:35:15 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 21, 2017, 01:31:45 pmWait a sec ... I think I just got a terrific idea!Work with me here - wouldn't it be possible to just go to the local grocery store and buy the fruit directly, take it home, and then squeeze it yourself?

author: Mark
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 01:59:48 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 21, 2017, 01:16:27 pm"Internet of Toilet".It will send data to a remote server and share your pooping profile with hundreds of companies. "We see you're having difficulties. Would you like assistance?".

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 02:18:43 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on April 21, 2017, 01:35:15 pmEven better: just buy juice with pulp (but without added sugar).

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 02:32:12 pm
content: Actually there are "smart toilets" on the market that can analyze your pee. A lot of medical doctors raved about it, because the huge benefit in diagnostics is being able to do long-term sampling. For some that is a true blessing.However, we are not talking about sharing your poop on Twitter.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 03:29:32 pm
content: Quote from: Mark on April 21, 2017, 01:59:48 pmPoop data mining

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 03:29:36 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on April 21, 2017, 02:32:12 pmAnd any insurance companies.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 04:03:21 pm
content: ah , you;re all just jaleous you didn't come up with the idea and nobody gave you a bazillion dollars. ( note : i'm jaleous too )

author: Kalvin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 04:49:57 pm
content: Does it run on Batteroos and will it give 800% more juice?

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 05:27:14 pm
content: People are looking at this the wrong way.Maybe the machine is a bit overpriced, though with a limited production run it's not going to be all that cheap to make.But the BIG thing is the subscription for packs of five bags of fruit&veges for US$30. That's SIX BUCKS each. Every week. $1500 a year.That's the real gold mine here.Let them squeeze it with their hands if they want. Irrelevant to the business model.

author: josecamoessilva
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 07:17:03 pm
content: Sorry, people, but since I saw a standard 3ft cat-5 ethernet cable for $1000 because it was a "audiophile-grade digital connector" I think of all these products as pikers. And let's not forget that Richard Mille sells mechanical watches about 100x less precise than the network-synched clock on your phone for...US $200,000.No, not kidding:https://www.essential-watches.com/watch/Richard-Mille-RM004-Felippe-Massa-Chronograph-in-Rose-Gold-on-Black-Rubber-Strap-with-Skeleton-Dial/72927So, a juicer for $400? I'm pretty sure I know a few people who're going to buy one. Because cloud. And internet of things.Edit: sorry, forgot to say, that's a used Richard Mille watch for $200k.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 08:59:01 pm
content: That watch has the name of an F1 driver in it, so that takes the price up another zero.

author: timgiles
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 09:23:08 pm
content: Any numpty who ponies up 400 dollars, euros, krona, pounds etc... for a machine that produces pressed juice at a price of 8 dollars, euros, krona, pounds per glass - is clearly at the point in life where money means nothing to them.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 09:29:11 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on April 21, 2017, 01:35:15 pmThe reason such things have some success is precisely because they change the boring usual way of doing it.I feel like people are just getting bored in this day and age, and more and more new things nowadays are thus just about finding a different way to do stuff simply to try and keep people entertained, regardless of how useless or inefficient it is. And it will be since most of daily life's actions have reached "maturity" and their most efficient implementation decades ago, and any change thus has to become worse... but that's good, becasue in 10 years we'll be able to introduce a change again by bringing back the good old way that people will have forgotten in the meantime.I see such a cycle in many fields. The lack of real progress calls for going backwards because regular change is needed. The linear progress doesn't work anymore so it's turned into a slow oscillation around the plateau.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 09:40:22 pm
content: There's a new follow-up article on it - here's a snippet -Quote

author: josecamoessilva
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 11:56:07 pm
content: Hey, I just realized: you can buy things with money. I want some of that money.(thinking)(thinking)(thinking)Don't buy a Juicero. Invest now in a Jose Camoes Silva Advanced Home Juicing System, with only the most advanced technologies and no DRM!Act now!

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2017, 12:04:53 am
content: Quote from: josecamoessilva on April 21, 2017, 11:56:07 pmLooks good, but what happens when I run out of veggies? Does it talk to the cloud and order me more on my pre-approved credit card?

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2017, 01:35:45 am
content: Quote from: wraper on April 21, 2017, 03:29:32 pmThe problem comes when your $5b startup ends up a registered sex offender simply because some kid sat down on your eToilet and had his unique topographic anal profile scanned and uploaded over the internet.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2017, 11:01:28 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on April 21, 2017, 12:16:49 pmSee also, the razor is free - but don't ask how much the blades cost.

author: Vgkid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 04:33:17 am
content: Penguinz0 did his take on itNSFW (Language)

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 04:42:59 am
content: It needs an app too?

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 05:08:35 am
content: Quote from: VgkidThat was funny as fook !! We got to employ this guy to do EEVBlog videos :-) Please Dave .. please .. please ... please ...

author: Sredni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 05:49:39 am
content: John, what's wrong? What happened to you? You look like s**t!"I'm starving, my Internet is down and my Eagle Juicero can not check the QR codes are legit!

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 06:40:05 am
content: I've said this before and I'll say it again: A truly "smart" home is one which has proper thought that went into the design, not how many gadgets and IoT devices you can cram into it. Proper placement of power points and light switches along with "banks" of lights in large rooms and the addition of dimmer switches is something easily done.Sometimes simple is better. For example, I don't use an electric kettle. I use a gas cook top with a stainless steel kettle to boil my water (and yes, it even whistles to notify when it's finished). No electric elements to die, it looks nice and does the one job it's required to do perfectly.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 06:42:39 am
content: What's to stop someone from cutting the QR code off of a packet, taping it to the sensor and then filling an empty packet with fruit? Sure, you'll get tons of ads for Florida orange juice since it thinks you make nothing but orange juice, but it will sure save you a ton of money. Not to mention that QR codes are very well documented and easy to read and create. I doubt the information contained within is encrypted. I can just make my own and print it.I wonder how hard it would be for the average user to modify the internals so that the press is directly connected to a switch hacked into the side of the unit, completely bypassing the stupid IoT guts?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 06:53:55 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on April 23, 2017, 06:42:39 amOr just go to the supermarket and buy a bottle of 100% fruit juice. Yes, you can actually buy proper pressed fruit juice (not that concentrate crap) without any added sugar, water, etc... from your local shop. Not to mention an entire 2 litre container is cheaper than one of those single glass Juicero packs. This thing is truly a product for morons.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 07:09:56 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 23, 2017, 06:53:55 amThat goes without saying. There is no justification for the existence of this device. However, if you got drunk one night and woke up to this on your door or have family members with more money than brains, it might be useful to know how to get around the idiocy of this overpriced, overly complicated abomination and insult to technology.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 07:13:11 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on April 23, 2017, 07:09:56 amIf you have THAT much money, you can afford to hire someone to bring you fresh juice at the ring of a bell... possibly with a stick of celery and Vodka in it.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 07:19:10 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 23, 2017, 07:13:11 amI meant family members giving one as a gift.Quote from: tooki on April 15, 2017, 08:01:24 am

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 07:32:22 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on April 23, 2017, 06:42:39 amAFAIK they are unique single use codes and it has to report back to the server to verify before it presses the juice.Yes, no internet = no juice

author: Sredni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 07:37:26 am
content: They have to be stopped!Mock them to death.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 08:10:06 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 23, 2017, 07:13:11 amDon't be daft, $400 is much less than the price of a decent coffee machine. The problem with this machine is nothing to do with the price.The problem with it is that the IoT features *only* exist to make the machine worse than it would be without them.I can accept - just! - that different ingredients might require different pressures or squashing times to give best results, and that having some kind of identifier on the bag to configure the machine might (just might!) give a better experience to the end user.There's no reason at all, though, why this information can't be stored directly on the QR code, ie. "press at 70% of full power for 90 seconds".The internet connectivity *only* exists to involve the manufacturer with each operation, to log usage data and prevent the use of anything other than the expensive bags. There is *no* benefit to the end user.That's why this machine, and maybe a few of its juice packs, belongs on Hydraulic Press Channel.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 09:15:44 am
content: Yesterday I watched »Idiocracy« again. I can smell some similarities hereOn a brighter note: Stupid proprietary devices give birth to a whole new generation of makers and tinkerers that are fed up with *beep* not working.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 11:20:57 am
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on April 23, 2017, 09:15:44 amOh man, I'd forgotten all about Fruit Fucker 2000! What a blast from the past.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 02:02:31 pm
content: I was just thinking to myself, some kind of self cleaning blender would be a lot better way to create "fresh" juice with convenience from frozen components (freezing is perfect way to preserve fruit/veg for drinks ... no need to care about cell walls rupturing).I was apparently not the first to think so, they're even copying the juicer distribution model of working with their own cups (I assume they are single use at least as far as the machine is concerned).A smarter more high tech device which actually provides some real convenience (the juicer packs are still perishable, it provides bugger all but cost). The subscription lockin model is still scammy as hell though. I assume they have self cleaning blenders on patent lock down, a government enforced scam would be the only way to keep this kind of scam alive for long.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 05:02:48 pm
content: Know how we USED to do it? There was an attachment for my grandmother's stand mixer and you just sliced each orange in half and held it over the rotating attachment. Juice ran down the spout into the pitcher. Hardly any effort at all, and no fancy single task machine. They still make those.

author: josecamoessilva
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 05:20:59 pm
content: Donald Norman (who is probably known to some here, and should be read by all engineers) made a big deal of this design (not his own):

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 08:48:40 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on April 23, 2017, 05:02:48 pmSure, and my mother still uses her 1970s Kenwood "Chef" which, as my Dad used to like to claim "Has a bigger motor than his concrete mixer".

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 12:02:20 am
content: There's an episode of James May's The Reassembler where he puts together one of those Kenwoods. Pretty beefy machines. Like Kitchen-Aid USED to be in the US (the newer ones use cheaper metal in the gears and so forth). My Grandmother's was from the 1950's and still worked fine into the 80's. No idea where it ended up - I'd bet if it were still around it would still work.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 08:12:39 am
content: Quote from: rrinker on April 24, 2017, 12:02:20 amI've got my Grandmother's Kitchen-Aid Mixer from the late-50's and it still works like the day it was new. It's been used pretty much weekly over it's life and it really is built to last. I'm the third generation in my family to have it; I'm sure my kids will use it too. (If they don't have Multiverse Connected Smart Space Blenders by then.)

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 08:28:03 am
content: Quote from: rrinker on April 23, 2017, 05:02:48 pmAs long as it's the one with the spout and not theversion with the grate I'm fine. The latter is one of the most annoying things ever.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 10:56:50 pm
content: Don't turn it on! Take it apart!https://blog.bolt.io/heres-why-juicero-s-press-is-so-expensive-6add74594e50Tim

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 11:03:24 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on April 24, 2017, 10:56:50 pmGood find!

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 11:04:31 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on April 24, 2017, 10:56:50 pmNice.. the cost of the product itself for what it is really isn't overpriced.. the problem is that it's a Rube Goldberg machine.

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 11:29:43 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on April 24, 2017, 10:56:50 pm"There are dozens of components and subsystems that are incredibly complex and beautifully engineered". I disagree. It is not beautiful, if you design something with lots of expensive parts, which could be done simpler.I have one of these juicer:https://preisvergleich.check24.de/entsafter/panasonic-mj-dj01.htmlIt costs only a fraction, is faster and you can even feed whole apples (if they are not too big). This Juicero presses only one glass in the time I can juice one liter. I can even mix different things, like carrots, apples and oranges, one of my favorites. And no QR code or internet needed.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 11:33:46 pm
content: Wow! That's incredible for a consumer juice squeezer! The engineering is superb, but my gawd, to squeeze juice.https://blog.bolt.io/heres-why-juicero-s-press-is-so-expensive-6add74594e50

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 11:48:25 pm
content: Anyone remember Dr Nobel Price from the Sesame Street? xD

author: t_ryner
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 02:16:08 am
content: I'm definitely not the smartest person in the world, much less on this site. However, this seems like a extraneous solution to a problem that has already been solved.

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 02:35:08 am
content: Seems like an elaborate money laundering scheme.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 02:37:35 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on April 24, 2017, 11:04:31 pmFor the price and force I was actually expecting hydraulics....and using ball bearings for supporting the sliding press plate is somehow innovative? My desk drawers all have that...(That URL reminded me of AvE, someone who I'd probably enjoy seeing taking something like this apart. "Keep your dick in aviseJuicero")

author: t_ryner
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 03:06:09 am
content: It seems pretty basic for a juicer, in the cutaway view you can see the motors, wifi board (WHY! JUST WHY!), switches, and a power supply. I think the wifi board and the custom power supply, along with the casing amount for the majority of the cost. I don't see where the other $150 is coming from though.If you're interested, I found this miscellaneous control system on amazon. Supposedly for rc cars.-https://www.amazon.com/DROK-Controller-H-bridge-Regulator-Current/dp/B017FZDVJY/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1493089180&sr=8-10&keywords=wifi+control+board

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 03:33:48 am
content: Quote from: t_rynerI'm not supposed to do this .. but if you send me $50, I'll let you in on the secrets !! But keep it quiet !

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 06:14:36 am
content: Beautiful parts and construction indeed - but looks like it's overkill even for the forces involved, not to mention that in the first place something like a roller that moves from top to bottom would have drastically reduced them.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 02:03:30 am
content: Quote from: amyk on April 25, 2017, 02:37:35 amI mean yeah, it's not anything special nor is it particularly affordable.. we don't know the quantity it was made in.. if it's low quantity it could be reasonable just from the pure manufacturing stand point. This whole other issue aside.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 07:50:54 am
content: You don't make low quantities of something that needs to support large continued sales of consumables...

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 08:18:49 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on April 25, 2017, 06:14:36 amI like overkill. Overkill is reliable. I like reliable.I don't think anyone has suggested that the machine is actually bad at juicing, nor can I believe anyone would have even noticed this machine if it weren't for the comedy IoT features.Expensive, but nevertheless attractive and well built kitchen gadgets are nothing new or remarkable. This one doesn't need much in the way of modification to make it a perfectly acceptable product IMHO:- remove network connection, QR scanner, and the whole idIoT way of thinking- design and produce refillable juice bags (a simple roll top, with a clip in the machine to hold it closed?)

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 08:47:28 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 26, 2017, 08:18:49 amIt appears that their business plan revolves around a strong DRM mechanism and mandatory juice packet subscriptions. I would guess that the machine itself is priced at or just slightly above cost. Remove the DRM and subscriptions and they will be out of business in a month. Not that I'd complain though...

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 08:52:04 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 26, 2017, 08:18:49 amNo, but not particularly good either.Yup. If they removed the IOT stuff and made reusable bags then it would be no more than a conventional juicer, and they'd sell 0 of their machine they'd now have to price at $2000 because the subscription model they'd make their actual income with falls apart.Even a super premium design conventional juicer wouldn't sell at those prices.The fact the price of the machine has gone down from $700 to $400 indeed shows they're now likely only making a tiny margin on it if any at all.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 08:54:58 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on April 26, 2017, 08:47:28 amSure, I've no problem with that either. In fact I'd be surprised if someone doesn't start a little business of their own, selling very simple control PCBs which completely replace the electronics in the Juicero, along with a few refillable bags.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 08:56:04 am
content: Doesn't look as though it'd be that difficult to modify with a switch you have to use to press the juice, and add some protection so people don't crush themselves in it with some sensors.I don't see the surprise in the fact people would but this: Juice+ and Slim Fast have been around for a long time, particularly the latter and its psychological DRM (points).Preying on people's naivety and anxieties will never truly fail.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 09:01:05 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 26, 2017, 08:54:58 amI am highly tempted to do that myself, but lack the resources.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 09:05:16 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 26, 2017, 08:54:58 amThat would only work for a short while if the company folds and you find machines at on clearance at $100 and people who weren't interested in the original concept pick them up.Otherwise you'd be trying to sell something to people who precisely don't want what you offer. People who will be seduced by the juicero offer and will buy this thing are those who don't want the time/mess to prepare fruit and cleanup, they are precisely after the "quick and no-mess" disposable bag aspect, so a refillable bag is the opposite of what they want.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 09:07:02 am
content: I wish someone would take the 2 hours necessary to replicate this whole machine with an arduino, ESP8266 and linear actuator. Just to point out the absurdity of it.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 09:11:08 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on April 26, 2017, 09:05:16 amI wouldn't have invested $118.5 million, though.If the company folds and its servers go down, *every* buyer of the machine would need refillable bags.It's annoying that the (required) power supply is part of the same PCB. I wonder how hard is to flash new firmware via that internal USB connection? (Let the arms race begin!)

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 09:14:15 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 26, 2017, 09:11:08 amNah, they'll just trash the thing and all its beautiful engineering without second thought. I doubt any significant fraction of owners would go through the hassle of preparing their bags just to keep using it. Given the initial price and running costs the owners aren't in a category where they'll care about the $400 more than the hassle or their time that made them buy it.Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 26, 2017, 09:11:08 amI read it was an STM32, so it's likely just a connection to the built-in DFU bootloader. Piece of cake.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 09:15:08 am
content: I wonder if the press mechanism would be useful for machine shop applications. Forming powders and plastics, embossing sheet metal, maybe even some small hydraulic-press applications (replace the door and pusher plate with a small piston and slide).Very likely, everything is under MCU control, so that once hacks are developed, it could be fully repurposed as a Wifi connected CNC device!Tim

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 09:18:37 am
content: I'd just like to pick one up to see if I can hack it. There has got to be a way to trick the QR code reader. Problem is that I have to spend $400 to get my hands on a juice bag to get the QR code to run tests. :/ I doubt their data scheme is 100% secure, but I'm not going to waste $400 to find out.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 09:20:51 am
content: Guess you'll need to develop a fake server as well.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 09:22:37 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on April 26, 2017, 09:20:51 amIt depends entirely on the contents of the QR code. You are most likely correct though.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 09:25:01 am
content: The initial outcry was precisely over the fact that you could not use the machine at all without a connection. Suggests the QR is just a unique ID that gets sent to the server which checks whether it matches a bag that went out of the factory, that expiry date isn't passed, returns the type etc, then marks it as consumed in the database so it can't be reused again.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 10:03:36 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on April 26, 2017, 09:25:01 amThat is most likely the case, but not guaranteed. It depends whether they thought it would be cost effective to make the data contained in the QR code secure. It isn't something the average person will know how to access or change. It is also likely that it says "Orange Juice". That's why I want to take a look and precisely why I will not spend $400 to find out.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 10:07:44 am
content: Quote from: t_ryner on April 25, 2017, 03:06:09 amRead the article. All that custom machined aluminum is really expensive to produce. It has quite a few parts required custom machining. And not just one type of machining either! A single part have to pass through several different CNC setups before it's finished. That's slow and expensive to produce and prices don't go down much as quantity increases.The electronics are most likely the cheapest part of the thing. If they're using the CC3200MOD, it would cost $10-$15 in 1000 quantities, however the CC3200 by itself would be closer to $5 (plus another $2-$3 of support components that would be included in the module version).Actually, it's a bit weird they're using the CC3200 *and* and STM32 on the same board. They should shave a couple of bucks off by using the CC3100 instead. (CC3200 has a user accessible ARM-CM4 that can be used as a primary MCU in the system, whereas the CC3100 doesn't.)

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 10:12:11 am
content: 99% sure it isn't.Would be too easy to bypass even maybe just by cutting/pasting the code from another bag, and as we all know regardless of how "secure" the code is there would still be a possibility for someone to crack it and short-circuit their business by selling 3rd-party bags, too much risk.The server-based approach is the tightest, and as they've gone for tigntness all the way and haven't exactly spared on engineering costs it would actually be surprising if they used any other solution.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 10:15:14 am
content: Quote from: timb on April 26, 2017, 10:07:44 amYou answered yourself in the first part of your post. Given how overboard they went with everything they couldn't care less about shaving a buck or 2 on the STM.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 10:33:44 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on April 26, 2017, 10:12:11 amUnderstand that I'm not arguing with you and I believe you to be correct. Still, this is all supposition until someone actually checks the contents of the QR code. I want to look at the hacking of it from all angles and the QR code is one of those angles. Maybe a dead end, but still something to explore.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 10:44:14 am
content: Sure, understand the interest of looking at all aspects.I actually just read that Juicero has put forward the ability to block packs from being used if there was a recall on a batch of product.That forces the remote authentication scenario.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 11:04:21 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on April 26, 2017, 10:15:14 amIt still doesn't make sense. Lowering the BOM cost means more money in their pocket. It's not like designing in the CC3100 would be any harder than the CC3200. The power and RF design is *identical* in pretty much every way between the two parts, the CC3200 simply has additional I/O for the MCU functions.In fact, it would have been *easier* to design in the CC3100, since you could just talk to the STM32 via SPI right out of the box. The CC3200 would need to be programmed with some custom firmware to allow it to send data back and forth between the STM32.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 11:09:42 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on April 26, 2017, 10:44:14 am...or if the pack has passed its expiry date, or if it's already been pressed, or even partially pressed but then aborted.Seems that refusing to press packs is a part of the business model too. There's no "oh, ffs, just press the damn thing" button.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 11:16:47 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 26, 2017, 08:54:58 amThere's this, which is basically the Juicero without the IoT DRM:http://www.juisir.com/(It does use semi-special bags, but I bet those would be easy to make yourself.)Not surprisingly, Juicero is going after them:https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/04/juice-wars-juicero-has-sued-another-juicer-maker-for-patent-infringement/Funny comparison table from Juisir. No mention of Internet connectivity requirement.

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 11:33:08 am
content: Ignoring the whole juice DRM, and the fact that hardware relying on external servers is garbage, they buy a high voltage DC motor from a drill motor company and instead of getting them to throw a planetary gearbox that's 1/2 the size of the motor? or using a worm drive for a steep reduction, they put together a fancy custom machined gearbox? Custom power supply for 330v that's inaccessible to the user instead of rectified (and doubled in 120v land) mains? Jeeze these guys sure knew how to stuff, but sure didn't know when or why to do stuff.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 11:33:28 am
content: Quote from: timb on April 26, 2017, 11:04:21 amGiven their locking down of things I'd say that's intentional, that way they can use a non-standard communication scheme to make reverse-engineering more difficult.Anyway the whole thing is so overvblown it really sounds like it's based on a marketing whiz crunching up some numbers and predicting they'd basically be drowning under so many millions of monthly profits from their bag sales in no time, backed by people who believed it and invested way more than you'd expect into such a thing, driving everybody into "we don't need to care a single bit about costs becasue we'll make soooo much anyway" mode.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 11:44:25 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on April 26, 2017, 10:44:14 amJust cut it and squeeze by hand

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 11:45:50 am
content: The typical customer won't even think/remember they can do that

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 11:57:19 am
content: QuoteBut ...QuoteI got a better idea, seeing as how you can just squeeze it by hand, just do an Addam's family design. Have two hands come out of a machine and do the squeezing!

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 02:14:55 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on April 26, 2017, 11:57:19 amYeah, my mind must constantly be in he gutter because I can think of a much more profitablejobfor a mechanicalhandand it ain't squeezing juice!

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 03:22:04 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 26, 2017, 08:18:49 amGiven the amount of juice you can get out by hand I think the pulp is mostly for show. I think it either only has enough power to squeeze the already liquid juice from the bag, or they found that putting large chunks of fruit&veg in the bags ran the risk of bags failing.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 09:27:00 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on April 26, 2017, 03:22:04 pmI was thinking the same thing. Anyone that has ever tried to extract juice from a fruit or vegetable knows it requires far more pieces of fruits/vegetables than what you end up getting as juice. If those pouches hold 8 oz of fruit/veggies, then there should only be about 1 - 2 oz of juice, if that. They MUST already be full of juice.

author: MadTux
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 10:57:23 pm
content: One of the most overengineered piece of bad engineering.The door is completely unnecessary, ever seen a press with a hingeable load structure? Probably not, because it weakens the structure and is completely unnecessary. Just flip the good old portal press by 90° and load the bags from the top.That acme screw thingy is ridiculous, such a 18th century design, except they knew on how to build acme screw presses back then and used massive screws. That screw will always get all the loading on a few mm's of it's length. That's where the screw will start fretting and galling before getting stuck forever. From what I can see, they were even stupid enough to fabricate the nut from the same material as the screw (hardened? steel) instead of bronze or brass, which will make the issue even worse.

author: Sredni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 09:11:05 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on April 26, 2017, 10:44:14 amYeah, right.And the government wants to take away your privacy to fight terrorism.Same scenario."It can't be that bad if it can save your life."

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 10:20:45 am
content: Quote from: amyk on April 26, 2017, 11:16:47 amThe phrasing for the trade dress complaint reminds me of Apple's rectangle with rounded corners design patent ... “symmetrical, upright”.Don't quite see how they can demand all the components to be delivered to them for destruction, trade dress is not international law.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 11:57:12 am
content: Quote from: amyk on April 26, 2017, 11:16:47 amAt least you can cut up your own veggies and make up the bags yourself. I bet that really pisses off Juicero -QuoteMan these juice names are confusing me - Juicero - Juisir - I keep looking at the source page to spell them correctly.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 02:26:12 pm
content: Could go with Juiceroo but then Batteroo would have to sue.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2017, 08:59:34 pm
content: Guess who's got his dirty mitts on one?

author: MadTux
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2017, 09:12:48 pm
content: Don't usually watch much youtube, but that stuff is hilarious

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2017, 10:51:47 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on May 19, 2017, 08:59:34 pmHahaha - oh man gotta watch that tonight!

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2017, 11:16:06 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 21, 2017, 09:26:56 amOh god... why...

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2017, 11:27:05 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on April 21, 2017, 09:29:11 pmI think you're onto something. Explains the whole mechanical watch thing, although that world has its own overpiced junk, there are some products that are true craftsmanship and mechanical engineering.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2017, 11:38:15 pm
content: This is even better than the John Deere tractor manufacturer in trying to rinse IP rights for the corporate overlords

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 20, 2017, 07:14:06 pm
content: And yet another awesome teardown by AvE, that was hilarious

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2017, 09:19:22 pm
content: Thorstein Veblen nailed it.

author: yada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 02:06:41 am
content: https://youtu.be/_Cp-BGQfpHQIt spies on your juice. Wonder fully built machines.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 03:00:33 am
content: Quote from: ConKbot on April 26, 2017, 11:33:08 amIt's not really a 330V motor, that was a mistaken (and foolish) guess based on the motor label.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 03:05:01 am
content: As was said in the video - should have made the plastic case clear, to show off the expensive machined parts inside.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 03:29:39 am
content: Champion makes a kickass juicer - This has always been the one I wanted. But super expensive.. Around $300https://www.google.com/search?q=champion+juicerWe have a much less pricey one from OsterQuote from: rrinker on 2017-04-23, 11:02:48

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 04:28:16 am
content: The "rsstroom" people were just too far ahead of their time, these days it would be a huge IoT startup:http://www.djspyhunter.com/teapot/2005/12/rsstroom-reader-toilet-paper-printer.html

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 11:26:46 am
content: Why would something like that need a 330 V rail?I've worked on (the mechanical parts of) a piece of electric vehicle charging equipment that needed a 185 VDC rail to drive a load of LEDs in series (no idea why you'd need to do it this way?) but this is bonkers.

author: yada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 12:35:25 pm
content: So all the machine does is squish a bag of pulp? Why is it so complicated? Why not just make a hand roller like the ones for tooth paste tubes? Seems like a rube Goldberg way of doing things.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 12:40:04 pm
content: Quote from: yada on May 21, 2017, 12:35:25 pmBecause ... um ... well ... the thing is ... ah because ...Just call it bling for your kitchen?

author: yada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 01:17:31 pm
content: It will save you time during your busy morning! You have to create a user id password and hope that your internet and smart phone are all working for it to squeeze a bag of juice? I really thought this was a spoof but its not, its real. I bet the camera takes a picture of you when you open the door like those new cocacola soda machines. What a waste of time money and plastic that goes into a landfill.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 01:47:55 pm
content: Do the bags have to be refrigerated until used?I say that because if that's not required I'm really shocked it doesn't have a clock/timer so you can load a bag, place an empty glass under it, and have it automatically squeeze it at a preset time. For all the engineering in there why not have that feature?

author: yada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 07:59:49 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on May 21, 2017, 12:40:04 pmWhen I was watching the AVE video I kept asking myself "yeah but what else does it do? does it cool/heat the juice, filter, or process it? He's not explaining something. " Nope. I can't wait for the next useless product to come out. How about a device that monitors the condition of your ice cube trays to see if they have been tampered with or contain non proprietary water in them?

author: t_ryner
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 12:45:07 am
content: Quote from: yada on May 21, 2017, 12:35:25 pmSame could be said about keurig coffee makers! I mean all you have to do is filter hot water through some crushed up coffee beans!

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 01:12:07 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on May 21, 2017, 01:47:55 pmBecause "common sense" features tend to not be really considered at all by SV startups... they're more in it for the bling, the wank, and the $$$.I remember once using (or being forced to use) a web app made by a company like this --- and it would've been trivial to change the page CSS style to have it actually show useful information and be easier to use instead of hiding it behind lots of click-overs, so I gave feedback and their response was basically "we think it looks better even though you need to click a few more times, so we're not changing it"I ended up just doing it locally with a userstyle.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 07:11:19 pm
content: There must be something else going on.Maybe they sell the other information they gather as part of this process.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 07:29:08 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on May 23, 2017, 07:11:19 pmQuoteWell we knew that anyway.QuoteOh a new word for me - de-identify.I want to go through a day this week as a de-identified person.

author: magetoo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 09:43:52 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on May 21, 2017, 12:40:04 pmThat's exactly what it is. Its purpose is not just making juice, but also fitting in with the other expensive items in your kitchen and telling visitors you're clued in to what's hip and can afford to throw unreasonable amounts of money at some small everyday problem you just can't be bothered with. Like having servants prepare your meals, but without the cultural baggage.So of course it has to be overengineered. Only the best is good enough for the elite consumer who has everything! It makes no sense as a mass market product because that's not what it is.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2017, 11:50:53 pm
content: A method has been discovered to properly "repair" the Jizzero to chooch to our will!

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2017, 05:22:37 pm
content: Still wondering why he went with a bunch of relays and stuff instead of a simple DPDT switch...

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2017, 04:30:34 am
content: Yes, thats called "The Analog Hole".Quote from: xrunner on 2017-04-21, 07:35:15>Quote from: AndyC_772 on 2017-04-21, 07:31:45Wait a sec ... I think I just got a terrific idea!Work with me here - wouldn't it be possible to just go to the local grocery store and buy the fruit directly, take it home, and then squeeze it yourself?

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 06, 2017, 11:04:01 am
content: Here is a much more useful and far more awesome app-enabled device:https://youtu.be/yqynvR-HNiE

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2017, 11:40:21 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on June 10, 2017, 11:20:20 amOne of the many channels I subscribe to. Their YouTube channel is nothing more than advertising for their retail site, but their videos are so well done and entertaining that I'll gladly sit through the crappy YouTube ads to watch their commercials. If more ads were like their videos, I'd gladly watch without complaint! Anyway, glad you liked it!

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2017, 12:07:39 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on June 03, 2017, 04:30:34 amIf you drink the juice and eat the pressed remains why not just eat the damm fruit to begin with?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2017, 12:14:26 pm
content: Quote from: senso on June 10, 2017, 12:07:39 pm

author: yada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 04:32:04 am
content: Quote from: senso on June 10, 2017, 12:07:39 pmIf you drink the juice and eat the pressed remains why not just eat the damm fruit to begin with?Because there would be no app to go with that.Just the other day I was thinking this orange is great, but what if I had to set up and then log into an app every time I wanted to eat one? The app would even check to make sure it was still an orange and warn me if there was a safety recall for bad oranges.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2017, 06:40:19 pm
content: Juicero is axing 25 per cent of its staff...http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/07/14/juicero_layoffs/

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2017, 07:23:20 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on July 15, 2017, 06:40:19 pmGOOD!Maybe those people can find actual decent jobs now and help people instead of working for a scam company!

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2017, 07:32:09 pm
content: Can someone translate this into meaningful English?"It was frustrating to read that something we always knew about, and that our customers simply aren't interested in doing, was somehow new and relevant. But you overcame the distraction and I appreciate your unflappable focus."

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 11:27:37 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on July 15, 2017, 07:32:09 pmDoes it make sense to you if it's written like this:"It was frustrating to read that something we always knew about (and that our customers simply aren't interested in doing) was somehow new and relevant. But you overcame the distraction and I appreciate your unflappable focus."?

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 12:37:09 pm
content: Quote from: mc172 on July 17, 2017, 11:27:37 amI can read quite well. What is he talking about? What was new and relevant? What distraction? If he is talking about squeezing the packet by hand, he totally missed the point. This was a rather random quote added to the article that didn't quite fit with the rest of the article, at least not without context.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 12:53:02 pm
content: You asked if someone could translate into meaningful English, not explain the context.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 01:10:50 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on July 15, 2017, 07:32:09 pmI have no idea what he's talking about.The only way it would make sense to me (I'm adding my own comments) would be like this:"It was frustrating to read that something we always knew about,[the possibility of applying computer control and internet access to a simple every-day activity]and that our customers simply aren't interested in doing,[not interested in applying computer and internet control to squeezing fruit/veggie packets]was somehow new and relevant.[Applying computers and internet access is not new and relevant to other everyday activities such as banking and gaming]But you overcame the distraction and I appreciate your unflappable focus."[So is that what he meant? I have no idea.]

author: 691175002
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 01:36:56 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on July 17, 2017, 01:10:50 pmMy initial understanding was the same as yours, but the quote came from the CEO and was supposed to be motivational.Juciro knew that packets could be squeezed by hand, but did not consider it revelant as their customers would not be doing that. The final bit at the end ("But you overcame the distraction and I appreciate your unflappable focus.") is just thanking staff for continuing to work despite the bad press.

author: sibeen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 01:23:51 am
content: Looks like they've gone bust and shutting down.https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/01/juicero-silicon-valley-shutting-downSuch disappointment.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 01:29:03 am
content: Quote from: sibeen on September 02, 2017, 01:23:51 amAnd the collective tech community gasps with shock!How could it have possibly failed???

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 01:29:56 am
content: Quote from: sibeen on September 02, 2017, 01:23:51 amI guess they got squeezed out (sorry).

author: Gary350z
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 02:31:48 am
content: Juicero shuts down.http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-juicero-death-20170901-htmlstory.html

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 04:08:14 am
content: WAIT !! There's HOPE !!!"The company will try to find a buyer “who can carry forward the Juicero mission,” he added."

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 07:13:15 am
content: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/09/01/juicero_now_a_fruitless_endeavor/So, of course, not only are they not able to fulfil any new orders, but every machine they've ever shipped becomes an instant boat anchor. But that's OK... somehow they can afford:QuoteThat should make them highly attractive to any potential acquirer, I'm sure.

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 08:23:58 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on September 02, 2017, 07:13:15 amIm actually surprised they are offering refunds. It seems like a decent thing to do, I wonder what the motivation is....?Isnt looking for someone to aquire the business just a normal course of action for these crazy VC backed startups? Im sure the "tech" they developed is worth something to someone.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 09:21:46 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on July 15, 2017, 07:32:09 pm"We knew out product was crap and a complete waste of money but we didn't think the public would realise so quickly"

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 10:36:37 am
content: Notice that what they're offering is a refund, which of course they can't afford to do for everybody, rather than a free firmware update which enables a trivial new feature: "press and hold the button for 2 seconds to begin pressingwithoutfirst asking for permission over the network".I'd love to see them put on the spot and asked, in a very public forum, why they haven't made this simple change. It would take about 10 minutes to implement, and would ensure that nobody is left with a machine they can't use.I'd like to ask them why they feel that allowing all those otherwise perfectly serviceable machines to end up in landfill is acceptable.Perhaps the only consolation here is that we may end up with another good example of failure to use in engineering lectures.

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 11:39:18 am
content: Maybe they will add that feature if no one buys the company assets.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 11:55:57 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on September 02, 2017, 10:36:37 amI'm sure it won't be long until some tech-savvy user writes their own code that does just that.However that being said, if the company is going under, where are the users going to buy their over-priced fruit pouches from? I assume they've stopped manufacturing these as well.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 01:49:13 pm
content: That's the point; the only reason for the machine to have its IoT features at all is to enforce dependency on the manufacturer's consumables with their unique, individual QR codes, and the central server that authenticates each one and 'allows' the machine to press it. If the supply of those dries up, the machine becomes completely useless.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 03:45:34 pm
content: That response letter sounded to me as if he was trying to contain the damage by making the revelation look too boring to even go look at. That is to say they were trying to do damage control by pretending to have more credibility, confident that most people would be fooled by it's tone into thinking it was nothing/never investigating the situation.Which actually is quite newsworthy as we have seen.I think the Juicero situation is illustrative of a number of disturbing changes in society but its challenging to put them into words in a way that does the situation justice.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 04:28:58 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on September 02, 2017, 01:49:13 pmAnd the sad thing is that most people will figure that out only after it happened to them, not while considering to buy such an IoT device.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 07:26:21 pm
content: The people who bought the juicer don't DESERVE refunds. They deserve to have that 400 dollars go down the drain so they can learn not to shove money into worthless IoT things that do LESS than that the traditional counterparts do. IoT needs to DIE in a fire. It's a complete and total undercooked GIMMICK that has formed into one of the largest botnets in the world that is capable of taking down a considerable chunk of the internet.

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 09:25:51 pm
content: For some reason I don't see any objective opinions in this thread.1) It claims to be calibratedThis means,1) Fruit control - particular ripeness level, fruit size, possibly sugar content, cut quality, etc is sampled (i.e. chemical inspection at packaging plant), also possibly assured vendors, supply chain control (like buying parts from digikey vs ebay china), good wash, pesticide test, etc. They may have an expert fruit tester present in their facility, similar to a wine tester, to assure quality.2) Calibration on fruit - the pressure is tailored to the cut and type of fruit in the bag, to provide some kind of calibrated experience with the squeeze contents of the solid.I'm sure there were significant R&D costs to developing fruit calibrations. You need to do tests to determine what is the most accepted flavor profile of a squeeze. Then figure out how to maintain that flavor profile throughout the seasons, different fruit suppliers (you probably wont be buying from the same guy the entire year around), etc3) Emergency Convenience- late, tired, etc... you still get what you consider (im not sure if it actually is) healthy, even in really bad situations where you can't be fucked preparing a meal. Even the most dedicated people have situations where they will eat a bag of cookies for dinner. Now, its theoretically possible that having the fruit etc might help stave off a disease or provide an immune boost to dodge some kind of illness that can occur due to poor nutrition in a weakened state. Also, you might heal faster, lets say your sick with a cold and you feel tired.Doing these things yourself requires shopping prowess, the fruit wash in the sink, the cutting, inventory managementSo you need to keep a fruit stockpile and schedule your meals based on ripeness. This is what a wife typically does.It's expensive or time consuming either way. Some people just don't like going grocery shopping and prep work etc.Now, what you get it scheduled deliveries, this saves you shopping time and cuts down on inventory space. You also (I don';t know if they do it right) get guaranteed fruit of some particular quality. This depends on the manufacturer standards.Now, if you have family/wife/friends that take care of you, the value of this invention drops drastically. On the other hand, if you are alone, or everyone is busy, its not the stupidest thing in the world. Obviously its being charged to a premium, but people do alot of weird ass expensive shit, like massages, vacations, yoga, drinking fancy alcohol,titty bars, hookers, drugs, tea (ever check out the price of premium teas?), aromatherapy, etc.In some ways, it does seem more logical then hiring a thai hooker for a massage, but each to his own.I for instance enjoy Snapple iced tea, even though I can make some good tea at home. It costs like 2.5$ a bottle. Cheap, but you can argue the I am completely retarded for all the plastic waste etc, compared to a teabag or better loose tea, which only incurs typically a small metal or plastic waste.And, some fruits are just unpleasant to eat, but the juices are OK imo. I don't like eating apples very much, but apple juice is quite good. Unless someone provides me with a free apple, I will not purchase one. And sometimes you fill up on junkier food but still want the fruit nutrients without filling your stomach further (i.e. go out to a burger joint). This may help with digestion.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 02:19:04 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on September 02, 2017, 07:26:21 pmI generally agree, however at first glance, the Nest smoke/carbon monoxide alarm seems to be at least one IoT product worth having. I say this because it doesn't rely on the internet (or even your own Wi-Fi network) to continue functioning. Once set up and if your internet/power fails, it will continue to work autonomously and will communicate directly with other units using their own mesh network.The downside to the Nest is that it contains a microphone (for it's "self test" feature) -- A smoke alarm does NOT need a microphone!If you're going to design a GOOD IoT device, it needs to have a fall-back mode where without the internet or the company existing any more, it's still perfectly usable for the most part.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 02:51:49 am
content: Quote from: CopperCone on September 02, 2017, 09:25:51 pmSo, basically, what you're saying is that this overpriced and gimped piece of junk was needed because people are too stupid and/or lazy to select good pieces of fruit to squeeze themselves?Quote from: Halcyon on September 03, 2017, 02:19:04 am^^This!

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 07:19:30 am
content: Quote from: CopperCone on September 02, 2017, 09:25:51 pmI think perhaps you've misunderstood the technical implementation of the product.Suppose you think there is value in having a juice pack squeezed with a certain pressure for a certain amount of time. Personally I can't believe it's that big a deal, but I've nothing against anyone who can taste a difference and has a preference one way or the other. That's up to them.The Juicero packs contain a QR code which is unique to each one. There isno technical reason whatsoeverwhy that code couldn't contain, say, "press at 70% of full power for 20 seconds", which would tell the machine absolutely everything it needs to know to deliver the optimum end product.But they don't, though. What they contain is "this is pack serial #12345678", and the machine has to contact a server with this ID to get a response back. That response contains the calibration data, and much more importantly, a 'yes / no' flag as to whether or not the machine is permitted to use that packat all.The features which benefit the owner of the machine could have been (trivially) made to work with no network connection. Theonlyreason for needing a network connection is to enforce total dependency on the manufacturer's consumables, and to lock out competition.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 10:37:48 am
content: Yep, Juicero's business model was: complete vendor lock-in and full control of devices = profit

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 10:50:41 am
content: "This is a machine aimed at vegetarian and vegan people.They do not have the strength to squeeze those bags themselves. "Veggies maybe, but Vegans are semi-cyborg. They might only be 3ft tall, but don't even think about arm-wresting one of 'em.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 12:11:23 pm
content: On their website they boast of selling "over a million Produce Packs" (they don't call them juice packs, because, well, they're still too wrapped up and taken in by their own marketing wank).Aside from income from selling the machines and subscriptions, they also had $120m of a bunch of gullible VC fools' money, including Google. So, a million juice packs, $120m investment, that's of the order of about $120 per drink. Nice.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 08:21:08 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on September 03, 2017, 12:11:23 pmI'd like to think at least some of them came with top-shelf vodka.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 05:41:47 pm
content: From the BBC news site today, plus a few other failed startups...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41148663

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 08:03:53 pm
content: thats a problem with the sales people, the product can easily be reprogrammed.the only thing that can be said, is that the system of using a serial number inhibits adulteration and counter fitting.Perhaps this 'function' has more of a use if you are a prince in the 1500'sI never argued that the requirements for this product having a high utility are rather bizarre, but they exist.MarkS, I can say that about anything. People are too stupid and lazy to mash their own potatoes, people are too stupid and lazy to mix their own cleaning agents, people are too stupid and lazy to wash their hands in the bath tub (why bother having a kitchen sink and a bath tub, you can just kneel down), people are too stupid and lazy to cut metal with a hacksaw (who needs that automatic band saw)... the purpose of all technology is to make things easier and faster, but it all costs money.i mean maybe you really like going grocery shopping, i don't knowif you do the same fucking boring ass prep job every day for 40 years it adds up. It gets frustrating. Some people like the ritual I guess. It depends on how you structure your life. I think the dishwasher is a major similarity to this thing.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 09:08:52 pm
content: It appears to me like a big gimmick that is designed to lock the user into using a steady stream of proprietary consumables from this Juicero company. Same as the Keurig machines and Tassimo and so on.While something like this Delonghi Magnifica is expensive, it does not lock you into any further purchases from the company, is not connected to the Internet and allows you to do all your settings (various volumes for sizes) yourself:This is well worth the high cost. We have one running already flawlessly for probably 6-7 years now, being used daily to make numerous coffees, espressos, capuccinos... etc. All you need to add are whole beans of your choice, any milk of your choice (if you want) and water. That's it! The periodic descaling cycle and you are good to go!If they can make a Juicer that works like this machine, but having to do with FRUIT then it would be a winner!Even at twice the price.It should have:1) NO stupid premade juice packs, just add your own RAW FRUIT2) Easy to clean system (water reservoir to flush machine)3) Some settings for pressure/grinding/squashing options4) Maybe additional container to let you add milk or some other ingredientsJust like this Delonghi coffee maker, which lets you add whole beans, water and milk container optionally when making capuccinos or lattes (by the way you don't have to use milk... you can use whatever milk-like beverage you want).The coffee machine grinds the beans, or you can add your own preground stuff (like if the hopper is filled with caffeinated beans and you want to make a decaf... you add preground decaf). With the juicer... DESIGN it so add raw whole fruits to a grinding mechanism or let you add mushy or small bits of fruits to a non-cutting entry point. Maybe even allow addition of ice so you can get it to be like a slushy!The coffee machine puts all of the coffee into a french press-like mechanism that then gets addition of steaming hot water and then a small press with tiny holes squeezes the mixture to keep out the particles of coffee and let the liquid out into your cup. Similarly, the hydraulic pump could squeeze the fruit pulp mixture to let out different amounts of either liquid only or varying degrees of pulp.Finally, the use of an additional container that lets you add frothed milk (in the coffee machine example) can also be employed in the Juicer design. If you want to add certain other liquids, for example milk to make your juicer make a smoothie... that can be an option.All of this could be put together with a menu system that has presets and a book explaining what ingredients to add. Or, you can have custom programmable entries to suit your tastes... Like more or less pulpy, more or less milk or whatever. Delonghi should just make a juicer using the same principles as their coffee machine, just built for Juicing instead of Coffee.My point is, something like the concept I explained above would use:1) your own fresh ingredients2) the ability to process on the intake (grind/chop/etc) or not3) add additional liquid (like milk) if desired4) flush the machine with water from reservoir (to clean it out)5) custom programmable and preset options with recipe book6) one-button press7) easy clean up using flushing from water reservoireasy disassembly for cleaningAll of those features I have with my Delonghi as it applies to Coffee. This would be a $1000 Juicer that could be built to last and definitely would be worth it to Juiceheads.They may already have that type of machine by the way.... But Juicero was built not for rich people but for people who can't afford that type of machine. Instead, they enter that lifestyle by buying a cheaper machine at a lower price but then pay more in the long run using these proprietary juicer packs.Seems very similar to PRINTER MARKETING.....Used to be an expensive professional-quality printer would give you lots of options regarding ink and you pay more up-front for the machine but then save in the long run because you have full control of it and the ink it uses.Now these days the printers are made as cheap as possible to lock you in... and allow most people who couldn't afford a good printer otherwise to get into the game. Then the companies recoup that low profit on hardware by making it up on the consumables later.This Juicero is nothing more than a stupid marketing technique applied to yet another aspect of our lives... except in this case people finally realize what it is.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 11:02:47 pm
content: Chinese clone without the IoT, apps, DRM, or other crap:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1793272089/juisir-juicing-without-the-cleaning

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 01:19:31 am
content: Quote from: edy on September 04, 2017, 09:08:52 pmYou mean, like ablender? Everything can even go in the dishwasher when you're finished.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 02:49:43 am
content: Quote from: amykThe problem STILL is - offer #3 has ~$1000.00 for the extra bags !! Irrespective on how long you expect that to last, it's AGAIN a custom / proprietary design.I doubt that you'd be bothered trying to make a clone. Plus a huge waste product. All because people don't want to clean a containermeh

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 10:30:59 pm
content: Quote from: digsys on September 05, 2017, 02:49:43 amThats $1000 for the 3 extra juicers, not the bags.Its not my thing, but if they sell the cotton filters for a low price it seems reasonable. You can buy filter cloth for cheese/tofu making, so that might be usable.Quote

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 06, 2017, 12:45:13 am
content: Quote from: thm_woops .. you're perfectly right. How would you replace the silicon pouch, if they stopped making them?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2017, 01:30:01 am
content: Quote from: digsys on September 05, 2017, 02:49:43 amYea - but I keep seeing these things with a real glass under the exit spout. To be complete, they shouldshow a disposable paper cup so the lack of anything to clean is complete.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2017, 05:42:07 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on September 06, 2017, 01:30:01 amWhy don't they just coat the inside of the container with some sort of non-toxic hydrophobic coating so it never needs cleaning anyway?

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2017, 04:10:35 am
content: QuoteWhat if it incorporated a heat sealer and color printer. You buy rolls of plasticized aluminum to feed in one end. I think you get where this is going. Turn a big bag of fruit into a smaller bag that is basically like a freshly minted Capri-Sun.Take it one step further, and for the non-vegetarians with average hand strength, you can incorporate the juice bag with the "produce pak." When you're ready to drink it, you open your lunch box, take out your "Juice Pak" TM, and you squeeze the produce side, filling the juice pack with fresh squeezed juice. Then you tear it off. And laugh at the poor kids drinking ghetto pre-squeezed juice.