What Ever Happened to Well Documented User Manuals - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 07:47:46 am
content: I have noticed a trend in the use of poorly documented printed user manuals.or is it user manuals for non technical people? lots of warnings & compliance logos butthe heart of the user manual is missing. QR code this or thatbut the link is little better. be it a camping generator set or a television set.it's not like their is a shortage of paper used in the packaging of the product.the most egregious omission from user manuals is how the logic of the product works.can I use both inputs and outputs at the same time? or can I disable this or that.is it a line level or speaker audio jack? watts?the best user manual I have seen was the 1982 Commodore 64 ring binder user manual.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 08:06:37 am
content: Indeed product documentation is getting dumbed down.Most users don't even know what the specs mean, possibly even the office paper pusher tasked with writing the manual does not know what they mean, he just got some numbers from the engineering department and put them in somewhere. Most users will not read the manual and just try to use it, if it does not work they will either google the problem, or for even less tech savvy people, call up someone who is a 'computer person' and nag them to fix it.Last week i was specing out my new PC and it was infuriating how deep i had to dig on some manufacturers public websites to find the specs for a product. They all hit you in the face with fancy product photos, marketing wank, animations... etc only when you scroll all the way trough that you find a dropdown window that you have to click to expand in order to actually see the specs. WHY?!I don't care how a SSD or motherboard looks from all sort of artistic animated angles. I wanna know how fast it is and if it works with what i want to plug it into.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 08:08:53 am
content: Legend says nobody ever reads the user manual.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 10:16:43 am
content: There are still User Manuals, but useful information has been displaced with twice as many pages of warnings about what not to do, such as, don't put the cat in the dishwasher or bathe the baby in the clothes washer.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 12:34:40 pm
content: Manuals don't make money. 90% of people don't use them even if they existed but as sales haven't slumped since no longer producing them then there is no gain in doing the extra work.I often see in companies a lack of documentation for their own stuff as that takes money and time and the person who needs to write it is often too busy to do it.I get frustrated when I am looking for details about sizes etc. only to be given the size of the box it comes in. Another was I wanted to know what the maximum fan size I could fit inside a computer case, with little or no specifications shown.This week I wanted to look up the specifications for a device (Microtronics Blueforce) and the Technical Sheet shows very little information other than all the standards it can be used for. Sadly this is a device you have to pay the manufacturer each year to get a code so you can use it as it won't work if the calibration date expires.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 12:49:16 pm
content: 1. The product cycle is too fast. Development time is compressed, and the next product cycle has already started by the time the previous one is finishing up.2. It takes too long to develop. Refer to a modern microcontroller manual; 1000 pages still leaves a lot out.3. As commented above, they don't "add value" = "make money or drive sales".4. No priority from product managers, who in their daily life would just throw it out and get a new one or go to a service shop anyway.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 05:55:25 pm
content: Lower price point doesn't leave much to pay for expensive user manuals. Take your pick: High price with great manuals (Tek, Fluke) or low price and questionable manuals.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 07:19:04 pm
content: Even test gear manufacturers have gone down a LOT in the documentation. The service manuals for modern gear are mostly just how to do calibration and then some troubleshooting flowcharts that lead you to what board to replace.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 07:24:10 pm
content: The classic user and service manuals from -hp- and Tektronix date from when commercial and military purchasers assumed that their in-house maintenance personnel would maintain and repair the units.One could actually learn things about electronics from reading them, even if one didn't own the equipment.

author: BILLPOD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 07:24:44 pm
content: Most products today come with a 2 page 'Quick Guide', if you are lucky. And if you are very lucky the manufacturer has a 'users manual' on their website, as a PDF. And you better download that PDF, as it may not be available in a couple months. And if you choose to print the PDF, choose your pages carefully or you will wind up with 97 pages of the manual in languages you've never heard of

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 07:52:06 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on September 29, 2023, 07:19:04 pmI've seen Keysight service documentation saying "Service policy: device replacement". So there is no "servicing", the old unit gets srapped and customer gets a net new device.The best service guide you can find for many test gear is this EEVBlog forum

author: PwrElectronics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 09:05:32 pm
content: For sure, 20-30 pages of cautions and other such warnings in 10+ Languages but scant information on how to actually use the product or even rarer; to service/repair it.Actual use instructions are 1 page at most and leave out any useful details that could confuse anyone unless a power user (like most here).

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 09:20:07 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on September 29, 2023, 07:52:06 pmAnd sadly the unit becomes part of the growing pile of E-waste.Or….ICs are recycled and end up in the grey market.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 06:24:48 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on September 29, 2023, 07:19:04 pmCertainly the quality has gone down a lot since the eighties and earlier. But I'll still take a manual with block diagram and adjustments over instruments without any adjustment instructions *cough Siglent where people have to reverse-engineer how to adjust cough*.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 06:50:18 pm
content: the cost to society from unrepairable objects is probobly greater then dealing with the court cases of bad repairsnothing like loads of people being totally stuck and unable to save and advancelike the dumb nanny that clogged the pipe with baby wipes because she could not figure out how to rinse a wash clothwith the amount of risk people take to make money (job stress, health, unsafe jobs, commutes, etc), you can't even say its safer to spend extra money on getting a new device. Like its a risk to repair but so is not saving money, being tied to a job because of reoccurring expenses, etc. There seems to be this notion that for some reason getting your pay check is risk free. I.e. moving, taking a job you are more comfortable with (even with lower pay, since its relative to your expenses), taking time off, using money for health/relaxation reasons, etc.

author: Coordonnée_chromatique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 07:48:02 pm
content: Quote from: Tomorokoshi on September 29, 2023, 12:49:16 pmThe documentation is dead since it had been poped out of the modern companies projects processes because the manuals have to be written after the projects endings, and the staff is dissolved or on another project when the documentation had to be written.A good notice is written by theENTIRE STAFFthat had worked on a product, and a redactor is just here to collect and organize the data.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 09:26:37 pm
content: When you look at the quality of old HP manuals, the current situation is very depressing.Heck, it was not just for expensive gear. Yes, even cheap home computers of the 80's (at least many of them) came with fantastic manuals.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 09:46:47 pm
content: I bought a welder from Everlast. I got it direct, not through amazon or some reseller. It's been a great welder. I want to make a point I'm not complaining about the welder itself...but...In the box was a terrible quality laser printed paper manual... It was hard to read both because of the obviously translated nature and because the printer needed more toner.And best of all... it was for the wrong model welder.

author: Coordonnée_chromatique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 04:55:31 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on September 30, 2023, 09:46:47 pmHere you can read myBSlevel in English, few decades ago i was able to write technical documentations that were audited by extrenal cabinets of linguists and cerified by pharmaceutical big companies.My competence is lostsince i've been putted in concurence with people that d'ont speak or read english, and use google translations... only the bests survive

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 10:10:03 pm
content: Back in the late 1970s I serviced professional audio equipment. The most complex were of course multi-track tape recorders. These were magnificent examples of electronic AND mechanical design.I remember a particular 8-track AMPEX machine. The detail level in the manual was beyond extraordinary. It required not only multiple electrical adjustments, but mechanical ones too.

author: TERRA Operative
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 02:26:29 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on September 29, 2023, 08:06:37 amI just bought an RTX4070 Ti GPU and I wanted to know the power draw of the card itself to make sure it would be ok in my eGPU setup without upgrading the PSU.There wasNOinformation on the total wattage on the manufacturers website beyond 'Recommend a 550W PSU' in regards to the power required by an entire average gaming PC. I had to find the numbers as measured by a review website...Quote from: PapierzToaletowy on September 29, 2023, 10:22:52 amI had to pay 30,000yen (about US$250 at the time) to get the workshop manuals and full schematics on the workshop CD from Toyota for my 2019 model car.(If anyone has a 2019 model facelift Third-gen 80-series Toyota Noah minivan, I can provide all schematics etc in pdf form, a few even translated.)The provided user manual was mostly the usual 'this is how you turn on the headlights and how to open a window, and how to call for assistance if you have a flat tyre' bullshit. They don't even have a recommended service schedule by kilometers anymore, its all by time (What if I only do 1000km every 6 months going to the shops on the weekend, or I do 50,000km in the same time as a traveling salesman?). I had to pry the real info from the mechanics which turned out to be the usual 10,000km or 20,000km if using premium oil etc.... It's all getting dumbed down to drooling mouth-breathing levels.Although, a portion of the problem regarding test equipment is the highly integrated nature of things with SMD this, BGA that, firmware everywhere with custom chips sprinkled around that make repair a much harder thing to do than the much simpler SMD and through-hole construction of the early 90's and earlier.I did some time in documentation (for domestic airconditioners and HEMS equipment). There were more than a few products that I overhauled the manuals for, and poured in much more detailed information than was originally included.I'm pretty sure that there is a place for me in Documentation Valhalla for my modest efforts.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 02:47:48 pm
content: It's kind of value added thing. How much value do most customers put on a good manual? Very little as few read them and thus manufacturers don't bother with the manual any more. Not so much the cost of printing or to save paper. Even online manuals now are very bad. They don't spend money on writing good manuals any more.

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 03:27:30 pm
content: The first computer printer I purchased, in approximately 1988, was an Epson LX-80, a basic 9-pin impact dot matrix printer. It came with a 158-page manual which included all of the control codes to print both text and graphics in various ways, along with lots of example programs (in BASIC, of course, since that was the language that most computers used with this printer would have had built-in). The technical information contained in that manual would have been all the information needed to write a driver for that printer to work with any software package.I found the manual on-line today.https://files.support.epson.com/pdf/lx80__/lx80__u1.pdfIt is a beautiful example of manuals of the day. Packed with technical information, clearly written in very understandable English.What happened? I suspect it was something along the lines of:We did a survey and found that most of our customers aren't reading the manuals. It costs a lot to produce those manuals. In the interest of fairness toallcustomers, we decided to write our manuals so that the people who read them don't gain an unfair advantage over the ones who toss them in the trash immediately.

author: johnk0gcj@gmail.com
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 06:27:10 pm
content: I realize that this sounds radical, but do you suppose money has anything to do with this?

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 06:34:14 pm
content: User guides are done by a publicity department that probably don't know what function the unit does anyway, the writer has probably never used one and just got a description of the various controls. The safety warnings are to CYA for the company - I mean draw attention to known hazards and providing the suitable mitigations to these hazards.I am an engineer and I have written service manuals, but I got the first one I wrote sent back as it was too detailed and potentially revealed company IPO

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 06:47:12 pm
content: I used to write technical manuals and application notes for our SW products, as well as the online help guide.An infinitesimal fraction of people actually took the time to read them, while others missed important details explicitly shown on page 2 of the manual.After all that, we figured the manuals were much more important to the technical support than to the general public - after all, an answer could be found quite quickly, despite the occasional idio... *ahem* "belligerent customer" that "you shouldn't expect me to read the whole manual" when it was pointed to them the page, section and sometimes the paragraph where the information was present.This comes as no surprise in general, since even the host of this website prides himself in never reading them...

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 07:07:10 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on September 29, 2023, 07:47:46 amthis is required/mandatedQuotethis is notQuoteand now you know why.My mother taught me how to write user manuals, she had to do it for her peers and taught me to (try to) do things as self explanatory as possible. I sometimes write manuals and procedure guides for my colleagues, but i just don't bother anymore, it's a waste of time. People on the internet prefer to ask something that they could just google, because theyare too lazy to even do thatprefer to interact with a humanthese are the days in which you are proclamed a professor/know it all/asshole/all the above for having the nerve to suggest people to read the documentation

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 08:07:13 pm
content: Money is the reason but if most people would read the manuals and appreciate the manuals then they will provide good manuals. Manufacturers only spend money on things that their customers perceive as value. To many people the manuals have no value and thus to the manufacturers it's not worth it to spend money producing them.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 10:15:25 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on October 02, 2023, 08:07:13 pmYes but you are summing up the entirety of modern business here. It's not just about manuals, it's the same principle for absolutely everything.What I'm not completely convinced about anymore is the recurring narrative about how customers drive the offering of businesses through the perceived value.While this is part of the equation for sure, the other part is the converse. Businesses drive the perceived value of customers via various marketing tricks, sometimes (and these days, more often than not) using regulations as a pretext (for instance: we'll stop providing paper manuals because it's so bad for the planet - for a while, you'll get the same manuals on CD or USB keys, and then manuals just go out of fashion gradually.)There's also the related, group effect, where the majority of businesses in a given market make the same kind of decisions because they sound trendy and, rather quickly, customers have no choice anymore (nowhere else to turn to), so a given demand disappears for lack of offer. "Demand and offer" is an intricate feedback loop and certainly not a one-way street only as we still hear way too often .

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2023, 05:34:39 am
content: Quote from: Neilm on October 02, 2023, 06:34:14 pmYep that is ridiculous when 50 years ago manuals often had full schematics of the product so that it could be fixed more easily.

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2023, 09:03:00 am
content: https://kitronik.co.uk/products/inventors-kit-for-arduinothe 51 page tutorial book that comes with Kitronik's Inventor's Kit is noticeably well made - a bit vague with the IKEA 'ish mechanical assembly.For user manual, read for (applies to) any bookthough arguably there hasn't been a better time to make fantastic hard copy.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2023, 10:01:11 pm
content: I entered the broadcast video industry in the 70s,The diocumentation was exceptional - Ampex, Tek etc… even the smaller bespoke products had usable documentation.Sony were easily the best of the up and coming manufacturers, but as soon as desktop publishing was ‘anccessible’, and China came on the scene for anything, the standards dropped dramatically.Documentation (even electronic only) is expensive to produce properly, it should start the same time as project development, and nowadays in many cases, it’s not even started until the product is ‘finished’, and the manufacturer knows whether it works or not !