ESR meter - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2018, 08:24:26 pm
content: Hi,Who made this ESR meter?How can I get a more extended scale near zero?http://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/january2016_ESRMeterforTestBenchftp://

author: Paul Price
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2018, 11:05:52 pm
content: ESR is resistance and test and capacitor under test lead length is resistance, so how practical is this? You would have to cancel out the effect of these factors to be much less than one ohm.In the circuit shown for this ESR meter there is a range switch for selecting 6-ohm FS or 1-ohm FS. You can experiment with using lower valued resistors to get better <1-ohm resolution and re-calibrate the readout with fractional ohm resistors.If you can easily read the existing <1-ohm scale area of the meter, what's the advantage?The circuit shown uses a 100KHz sine wave. The capacitive reactance of a 1uF cap is at this freq. is approx 1.6 ohm. How good is this instrument if the test frequency doesn't already limit CUT capacitors to be >30uF to have any accuracy of ESR <1-ohm?The website says:"This meter is not suitable for testing capacitors less than 30 microfarads. If the CUT is too low, the reactance at the measuring frequency becomes significant, resulting in an excessive ESR reading. The solution to this problem is to redesign the system to use a higher frequency. If the need arises, I may try this as a future project."

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 12:11:37 am
content: ThanksQuote from: Paul Price on January 02, 2018, 11:05:52 pmI want to use this circuit for low-impedance capacitors from 100uF. Therefore, the 1ohm scale is quite suitable. The switch can be removed, this is only additional resistance.

author: Paul Price
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 12:19:15 am
content: It doesn't have a 10-ohm FS range setting.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 12:24:12 am
content: 1ohm

author: Paul Price
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 12:37:53 am
content: The schematic and PCB layout seems to have omitted an important capacitor.The output pin of the TL317 regulator should have a 10uf to approx 100uF bypass capacitor at its output pin.Perhaps it is just something to do with photography, but the 220-ohm and the 680-oum resistors seem to be 22-ohm and 68-ohm on the populated PCB shown (TL317 voltage adj.)

author: Paul Price
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 09:23:52 am
content: I like this well-documented ESR Meter for Jay_Daddy on this board:Better protected from accidental HV charged cap.The OP circuit uses a 1N4184 protection diode and easy to smoke.Simple Circuit100KHz Test Freq.Easier to build with SMD components.PCB shown clearly and meter face overlay provided.Only 5 GP transistors needed plus a 78L05/7805/LM340T-5 Regulator, so much lower complexity.Can be made almost for free using parts salvaged from other common CE equipment.Meter stays at zero when there is no CUT.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 11:38:21 am
content: Alan Wolke made a video about J_Diddy_B's ESR Meter. You might want to check it out.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 07:36:25 pm
content: Quote from: Paul Price on January 03, 2018, 09:23:52 amA good circuit, but I need a ESR meter with a sinusoidal signal.The question is not in the simplicity of the circuit. The question is in the other. Can this circuit measure small values of ESR or not.In addition, I do not know the technical characteristics of the proposed ESR meter.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 07:45:35 pm
content: What is your "small value of ESR" you want to measure.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 08:28:43 pm
content: Less than 0.01 Ohm.For example.Rubycon ZLG Ultra Low Impedance 1000uF/35v.Max.impedance-0,012Ohm.http://www.rubycon.co.jp/en/catalog/e_pdfs/aluminum/e_ZLG.pdf

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 08:50:25 pm
content: Quote from: tigr on January 03, 2018, 08:28:43 pmthen you need 4-wires measurement, and this circuit is only 2-wires. you won't get these small values with it.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 10:47:50 pm
content: 2-wires4-wiresWe see that there is no difference.

author: The Electrician
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 03:48:37 am
content: Quote from: tigr on January 03, 2018, 10:47:50 pmThere is no difference when the two "wires" are the very short and thick blades on a tweezer type LCR meter as you show. That's not what Kripton2035 is talking about. The project you are planning to build has a couple of banana plugs on the project box connect with ordinary wires inside the box. Those wires probably have a resistance of several milliohms which will add to the measured ESR unless some method is provided for compensating. Using a 4 wire connection is the standard way of solving the problem of lead resistance.Why are you going to build this project when you already have a tweezer LCR meter? Doesn't the tweezer meter use a sine wave for excitation?

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 08:29:42 pm
content: Quote from: The Electrician on January 05, 2018, 03:48:37 amI'm interested in a circuit without a transformer. Yes, I have almost a sinusoidal signal.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2018, 09:33:14 am
content: Quote from: The Electrician on January 05, 2018, 03:48:37 amAll my ESR meters are made in the form of tweezers. In this circuit, the reduction of the resistance of the measuring probes will be solved in a similar way.

author: Lassivv
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 02:11:06 pm
content: I think this topic is nearest my question.Just thinking what is best budget choice to measure ONLY esr. Not need that transistor, resistor, etc testers. Of course if you guys are that thinkings that price 8-15 transitors/resistor/capacitor/esr testers are accurate enough well i happy take links to good oneI thinking that just ESR meters are very much accurate and better reliable result, than that 8dollars cheap "multi" testers. Maybe i be just wrong.Measuring directly on circuit is very big positive thing.Can be kit or ready. Price point is about 30-100dollars. And if possible europe shops are better because customs, taxes, postages etcI know only Black one what Eevblog Dave use if i remember right something: Dick Smith Electronics but i think that not get anymore and price going with customs, taxes and postages quite high.This is only one what i finded:http://clientes.netvisao.pt/greenpal/evb1.htmThis looks quite good and get kit version too. Seems better than china clones on ebay, but anyone know is that ones ok?Not any information is that crash, bad, good or something elseI use that meter my hobby. Normally measuring normal 10-35v 100-1000uf elkos and 230-400v 2-40uf elkos. Different repair projects etc.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 04:51:56 pm
content: on my repository (web link below in my signature) you have a lot of esr meters to build or buyjust choose the one you want.the JayDaddy 5 transistors one, or the old poptronix are simple to build, and give accurate results.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 08:45:54 am
content: Quote from: Lassivv on January 12, 2018, 02:11:06 pmResistors can be checked with sufficient accuracy.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 10:35:34 am
content: The PCB is already drawn. This is an experimental option. Then I will do as a tweezer.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 01:50:14 pm
content: Quote from: Lassivv on January 12, 2018, 02:11:06 pmIn terms of reading ESR, a dedicated ESR meter is a better choice than a DMM. The main reason is a DMM can mislead you (i.e. make you think it's good when it isn't). They can usually test a wider range of values than a DMM as well. They're good for other things as well, such as measuring track resistance in order to find a fault.Quote from: Lassivv on January 12, 2018, 02:11:06 pmIn the case of Dave's unit, his is a Silicon Chip model (latest).Given that you're into repair projects, you might want to consider an LCR meter instead. And in the case of ESR, they usually offer multiple excitation frequencies. For example, if you need to test an electrolytic in a linear PSU, you can set the frequency to 100Hz (2 * mains frequency) in order to get accurate results for it's operating conditions. And they also test inductors and capacitors as well.FWIW, theDER EE DE-5000would fit your budget. And if you want it faster than the default method, the increase isn't that much IME. Kits with some test fixtures won't stretch your budget by much at all; say ~$20 over just the meter (example; includes the ground/guard wire, alligator clip fixture, and tweezer fixture).These can also do 4-wire measurements. Lots of info here in EEVBlog, including teardown photos. Other stuff on YouTube as well. Excitation frequencies are 100Hz, 120Hz, 1kHz, 10kHz, and 100kHz.If you'll note, the sellers linked are all in Japan and offer free shipping. What I've no clue to, is the customs, duties,... that your government would levy. Perhaps ask the seller to mark it as a gift to minimize/eliminate these fees?For disclosure, I do own one of these as do a number of other members (info on great deals is very popular for some reason...). Very nice bit of kit for the money IMHO.In regard toTigr's request of a unit sans transformer, the DER EE DE-5000 is such an animal, so you might want to add it to your short list for comparison.Quote from: Lassivv on January 12, 2018, 02:11:06 pmIt's the same as as the Silicon Chip ESR Mk.2 by Bob Parker linked above. The page you linked even states this is the case, and has alinkto Bob's page.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 03:24:25 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on January 13, 2018, 01:50:14 pmYou can do it yourself at different frequencies.

author: The Electrician
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 03:42:24 pm
content: Quote from: tigr on January 13, 2018, 03:24:25 pmtigr, your posts would be much more useful if you would add more text describing what the pictures you post are illustrating.What do you mean "...do it yourself". Are you suggesting that your reader should build their own LCR meter? Does the picture show an LCR meter that you built yourself? If so, the tell your readers all about it. What frequencies does it cover? How much did it cost you to build it? Where did you get the plans? Show a picture of the entire thing. Tell us what it is measuring and at what frequency.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 04:41:16 pm
content: Quote from: tigr on January 13, 2018, 03:24:25 pmTo what degree are you talking about?Based on what I can tell from your latest photo, the item appears to be an LCR (seeing both ESR & C displayed simultaneously). I'm also seeing 1k, which I presume is the test frequency. And based on every other LCR I'm aware of, it's not infinite; just a handful of choices (i.e. 100, 120, 1k, 10k, 100kHz on affordable models IME).There are units with a greater range, such as theWayne Kerr 65120P(120Mhz version). Very nice, but the sticker shock is a tad much as it sells for $30k without any options.Quote from: The Electrician on January 13, 2018, 03:42:24 pmAgreed.Posting them right side up would be helpful as well.

author: Svgeesus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 04:53:59 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on January 13, 2018, 01:50:14 pmThat meter says that it does 4-wire measurement, yet the photo shows only three connectors, one of which is for a shield. Are the other two special two-wire connectors with force and sense on the same plug?

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 05:33:32 pm
content: yes it is 4-wires measurementsand for the TL-22:

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 05:37:22 pm
content: Quote from: Svgeesus on January 13, 2018, 04:53:59 pmThe portion of the test fixtures that plug into the DE-5000 use a double sided PCB. So you've test on one side, sense on the other (true 4 wire). The round hole is for a guard/ground line (if you choose/need to use it).The one drawback to the other end of the fixtures, is the alligator clips or tweezers terminate the sense and test signals before reaching the CUT. Given the distances are small (~1 - 1.5"), it's not going to make that much of a difference in practice generally speaking.But if you truly want 4 wire all the way down to the component leads, then you can disassemble an alligator clip fixture (TL-21) and add your own wire and clips (i.e. those that the halves are insulated from one another, such as aMueller BU-78Kor similar). And ~$22, it's not horribly expensive either.Ideally, I'd recommend just adding 4* BNC connectors instead of wires just coming out of it, or even using banana's (better than raw wire though as strain relief through the plastic fixture enclosure isn't an issue). That way you can just connect up true Kelvin clips or a pair of tweezers that stay isolated all the way down to the CUT.It'd be a bit more difficult with the tweezers (TL-22), but quite doable (PCB material would be one way). that would accomplish this, and inexpensively as well. The Kelvin clips can easily out-cost the fixture (there seems to be some decent ones available on eBay and Aliexpress that are much less expensive than the Mueller's linked above).Edit:Krypton2035beat me to it.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 06:29:21 pm
content: Quote from: The Electrician on January 13, 2018, 03:42:24 pmThis is for another topic. Here we are talking about a simple ESR meter at 100kHz.Yesterday, one device was repaired and decided to test two capacitors in parallel. It turned out not to be a simple task. However, I came to the conclusion that both capacitors are normal.2x2200uF/50v ESR-0,004Ohm.This, it seems to me, is one of the variants of the solution for checking the capacitors connected in parallel.

author: The Electrician
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 08:15:47 pm
content: Quote from: tigr on January 13, 2018, 06:29:21 pmYou have added more text and this is a good thing. But what you have said arouses our curiosity, so try to go further.Tell us WHY it was not a simple task. Then tell us how you solved the problem. Tell us what the other variants for checking capacitors in parallel are, and why they didn't work.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 12:15:43 am
content: Quote from: The Electrician on January 13, 2018, 08:15:47 pmThis I would like to hear from many of you who have tons of different equipment of the first and highest category.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 01:33:51 am
content: .. lol .. here we go again ...

author: Svgeesus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 05:21:25 pm
content: Thanks kripton2035 and nanofrog.I have since found the teardownhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/der-ee-de-5000-unboxing-and-teardown/which is interesting reading.I was asking because my new (to me) bench multimeter (Keysight 34465A) can measure capacitance and (4-wire) resistance, but as far as I can see cannot measure ESR (or, indeed, inductance). If I get a separate LCR meter I would be looking for 4-wire measurement.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 07:22:40 pm
content: the deree de5000 is (still) the best bang for buck if you're searching for an lcr meter today.if you want a really better instrument, you need k$.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 12:35:00 am
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on January 14, 2018, 07:22:40 pm+1It's a fine LCR for hobbyist use IME, and it won't bankrupt you to buy. And as it's portable, you can position it where ever makes the most sense for the project being worked on.Might not seem like a big deal, but I've learned that it's a nice feature vs. boat anchor LCR's.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 08:01:29 pm
content: Well, if there are no other ways, let it be the only one so far.Returning to the LCR meter.Very even good.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 04:49:31 pm
content: I chose here such a precision microammeter for the circuit.

author: Lassivv
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 12:24:59 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on January 13, 2018, 01:50:14 pmThat DER EE DE-5000 seems good to my use. Little expensive what i thinking, but thats very good meter i think what i read.Think to buy this:https://www.ebay.com/itm/DER-EE-DE-5000-High-Accuracy-Handheld-LCR-Meter-w-TL-21-TL-22-TL-23-/282040803373?oid=161104294237What you think is that good way to update that test alligator clips, that default alligators looks quite poor quality and so short wires. Checked this kind video and think if do that update with this Aliexpress alligator clips.https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1-Set-4-BNC-TO-Alligator-clip-Kelvin-Clip-for-LCR-Meter-with-4-BNC-Test/32912179203.html?spm=2114If not better LCR meters this price range not appear, i think i buy this DE-5000. Many thanks your hints/tips @nanofrog

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 01:09:02 pm
content: the TL-22 tweezers probes are very nice. I always use them. don't buy your deree-5000 without them.

author: Lassivv
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 02:52:22 pm
content: Thanks for tip kripton2035. I think then i buy that kit what i linked, that i think includes everything what i need.Btw. Can i measure ESR caps when they are soldered on circuit. Like bob parker model i think you can measure esr caps when they are installed on circuit board and not need to desolder them to measure ESR.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 03:27:42 pm
content: Quoteyes this works fine. but it sometimes leads to wrong results (as it would with a dedicated in circuit esr meter because of parallels devices)also on power supplies with big capacitor bank, you have to switch the frequency to 100 or 120Hz or the total capacity is too high for the meter.

author: Lassivv
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2019, 01:46:30 pm
content: Thanks for info kripton2035. Yesterday evening i ordered that DE-5000 meter, with that accessories on last link.Not just waiting to get that here and start testing new meterëdit: Is that right Dave is only do teardown this meter, not tested meter more any other video?