Weller rework stations. WXR3 versus WR3 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: FrankE
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 05:16:50 pm
content: I'm looking for an all-in-one rework stations.Weller has already been decided for me. In the UK they have the best availability of tips and sparesI'm having trouble deciding between the WXR and the WR3 series eg the WXR3032 and the WR3000MDecisions, decisions.Do either come with tips?Has anyone used both?Any thoughts.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 07:56:17 pm
content: I have the WR3000M, it comes with a basic set of tips and filters. But it's irrelevant when compared with the station price.It works very well, but I have no parameters to compare. My other soldering station is a basic hakko 936 clone.I never used the newer WXR3. According with its specs it has 600W (3x200W) and the WR3M 420W (200W soldering, 200W hot air and 120W desoldering).It seems that the WR3M is compatible with a wider range of tools, and the WXR3 is only compatible with the new WX tools. I could not find a Weller document saying that, but the compatibility table of the WXR3 datasheet don't list the wide range of tools that the WR3M supports.Enviado de meu XT1572 usando Tapatalk

author: FrankE
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2016, 01:24:14 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on February 23, 2016, 07:56:17 pmYeah, the interoperability with the more ergonomic irons is my concern. I like the shorter WP irons. There's no putting it back if I find once I've used it that I don't get on with the form factor of the WX irons.It would just be a bit of a nuisance to unpack a fancy rework station and then have to wait a few days until I can get tips in.

author: donkey77
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2016, 01:25:21 pm
content: Hi, I have the WXR3 station, the same as the one Toploser recently sold.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/fs-(uk)-weller-wxr-3032-rework-station-3-channel/I bought mine from him too. His pictures show you what is included.As far as I could tell the only other differences other than those listed above is that the display on the WX models have a graphical display over the seven segment type on the older WR version.I've found it a great system to use, having an old WD1 station I will probably get around to getting a higher power iron as well, currently using the old 80w one for heavier duty tasks. The motion sense in the iron on the WX tools is better than the micro switch in the stand of the older type IMO but if you already have a few compatible irons to use with the WR station it might make more sense to stay with that system. The tips are different between versions but both are quite cheap.I also bought a set of tweezers which work well. Be warned though, the station (on both I guess, they look to be the same case) are quite deep so you need a deep bench or shelving to put it. It can also be hard to keep the cables/pipes tidy if leaving all the irons connected.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2016, 10:05:51 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on February 23, 2016, 07:56:17 pmThe WX line of hand pieces are not compatible with the older hand pieces (and vice-versa). The WX plug is larger and incompatible. The WX hand pieces are also chipped preventing interchanging the hand pieces (assuming you changed the connector). Versions of all of the WX hand pieces are available for the older stations.

author: FrankE
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2016, 11:01:30 pm
content: Quote from: donkey77 on February 25, 2016, 01:25:21 pmThanks. I typed out a lengthy response but it got lost (timeout or restart)The stock 65W of the 3032 may be problematic for nonSMD.How is it say with regular pads for discrets ( non surfsce mount)? Battery solder tags?Both are second hand so choosing a different ,odels means new or a potentially a long wait.

author: donkey77
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2016, 11:22:33 pm
content: To be fair I haven't yet had an issue with the 65w not having enough power. I haven't yet bought a bigger chisel tip than the standard one that comes with it, I think it's just a gut feeling that the standard one isn't man enough. A lot of the older PCB's I've had to repair (I'm not using this everyday by the way) are through hole and I have no problems. I haven't tried it yet but I guess soldering 4-6mm multi strand wire might be a push or require that extra few seconds to transfer heat. I'll have a go tomorrow and let you know.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 03:12:27 am
content: Quote from: donkey77 on February 27, 2016, 11:22:33 pmLarger tips are a worth while investment. The XNT-A tip which it comes with is not a durable tip esp at higher temps which you would have to operate it at for larger joints.

author: FrankE
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 03:20:01 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on February 25, 2016, 10:05:51 pmThanks.I found an interoperability chart for stations and pencils somewhere but damned if I can find it again. Nothing similar on RS, E14.There being all those different Weller ranges is a bit annoying. Single station for instance some good sets but with spring holder & sponge. Good pencil with not so good contoller or vice versa, X pencil doesn't fit Y station and so on.

author: FrankE
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 10:52:04 pm
content: I never thought of just using bigger tips for the likes of battery solder tags. For all that I'd use it that would be a workable solution.I've soldered battery tags with one of those awful 25W direct to mains uncontrolled irons, so 65 should be enough with the right tip.

author: donkey77
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 06:49:36 pm
content: Thought i'd also mention, going back a bit up the thread, the WX65 iron is slightly shorter than the WP80.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 07:03:02 pm
content: Quote from: donkey77 on March 03, 2016, 06:49:36 pmThe WX65/WP65 and WP80 are the same length. The WSP80 is about 1/2" longer. The WX65/WP65 is narrow compared to the WP80.

author: FrankE
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2016, 02:14:12 am
content: Thanks all. I ordered the WRX3032.I also bought a WSD81i Digital Soldering Station with WSP80 and WDH 10 dry clean stand.Strewth, they are much slimmer than the old TCP irons. I really thought "oh dear they've packaged a 25W iron by mistake". Really nice grip to tip distance.Next on the list stereoscope or PSU.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2016, 04:33:36 am
content: Quote from: FrankE on March 18, 2016, 02:14:12 amFWIW I own a WMP iron (65W), which is the predecessor to the WP65 & WXP65 (never versions definitely have the edge on tip swaps & selection). And although they're meant for working with SMD & under a microscope, you can do more with it (i.e. tin 12AWG wire using a 4mm chisel). Just be careful not to take on too much, as I've run into situations it could handle, but only by exceeding safe soldering times.So don't be surprised if you find yourself using the WSP80 more than the WXP65.

author: donkey77
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2016, 07:49:37 am
content: I'm sure you'll be very happy with the wxr but what was the reason for getting the wsd81 instead of a wxp80 iron and stand too use with your new wxr3 station?

author: FrankE
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2016, 08:20:57 pm
content: Quote from: donkey77 on March 19, 2016, 07:49:37 amGood question.It doesn't make sense on the face of it, doesn't it?The main reason for a separate single channel station is for transportability. I can pop the WSD in my backpack and take it to community tech/hack meetups, uni and (depending on the sort of people I'm contracted to work with) work.I sometimes need to move the iron to the workpiece and it would be more of a faff shifting a 3 channel station.It's the cheapest option for a good station, the tips are a bit cheaper and I can borrow/ swap tips with other community tech group users. I can get tips retail locally.Talking of tip-swapping it cools quick enough when de-energised to not make tip swapping a pain. That's not to say it loses temperature quickly when soldering. It doesn't. I tested by removing heatsinks from a PTH board I trousered from a television set dumped in the street for waste collection. No temperature recovery problems at all. My background is telecommunications so if I do board level work I'm going to meet ground planes, big ground planes.As to the choice of station ... I couldn't justify £500+ on a single channel WX station as a 'traveller'.I got a good deal on the WSD81i station.For on the lab bench I don't always need to fire up on all channels when it's a simple job such as swapping a battery pack.There's also availability. If I need the send the WXR away to be repaired I don't want all my eggs in the same basket so with a separate soldering station I've still got something with which to do through hole work while it is being repaired.I've spent weeks trying to justify buying one station let alone two.The 3 channel decision was a no-brainer (I need hot air, I need desolder iron) but that didn't stop me labouring over the decision to invest in one for over a month. l'm a bit, err, 'prudent' to understate and hummed and hawed for weeks ("will this help me earn?", "do I really need it?", "does my usage justify the cost?")with decisions to invest in other equipment that gets daily or near-daily usage (Flukes, battery drill, new computer, flashlights, hand tools ....). I spent less on the WSD station and component costs than the cost of replacing the items I repaired with it on the first day of ownership, so it's kind of paid for.It might take a matter of weeks for payback on the WXR but only because I need to get in practice again.That's my decision process laid bare, I think (yeah it's probably irrational and replete with inconsistencies)I wish I'd invested in my own station earlier.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2016, 01:25:18 pm
content: Quote from: donkey77 on March 19, 2016, 07:49:37 amNo such iron.The WX series of irons jumps from the WXP65 for SMD precision work to the WXP120 for general purpose use.Nor can you connect either the WSP80 or WP80 irons as the connectors are different between the WD and WX series (WX hand pieces are also chipped).Quote from: FrankE on March 19, 2016, 08:20:57 pmIs the hot air tool sufficient for what you typically work on though?I ask, as it's only meant for small SMD's on boards that don't have a lot of layers (only 200W).

author: donkey77
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2016, 07:56:41 pm
content: @ Nanofroghttp://uk.farnell.com/weller/t0052920899/soldering-iron-80w-24v/dp/2504787Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to take the piss.

author: donkey77
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2016, 11:21:15 pm
content: @FrankEAh, makes sense. I can see the logic in that. There is nothing wrong with my older WD1 and 80w iron ( although it needs a couple of new tips ) It's just my OCD and having the setup all the same that will probably lead to me getting a WXP80 or 120. Guess I'll still have the old setup for emergencies!

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 01:09:51 am
content: Quote from: donkey77 on March 20, 2016, 07:56:41 pmI searched prior to posting to see if it was a recent release. Nothing came up at all in the results; not on Weller's US site (proof) or even on Newark (Farnell's US site; even searching by the manufacturer or Farnell P/N's doesn't show anything).So don't be so quick to assume someone is taking the piss.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 01:50:30 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on March 21, 2016, 01:09:51 amThere is a WXP80 iron shown in the catalog (I thought about it, but chose the WXP65 as I already have a couple of the older 80W irons). It resembles the WXP65 not the WSP80/WP80. It uses the Power Response tips which are more expensive than the WSP80/WP80 tips. Don't know much else about it other than that. The catalog I have does not have any Power Response tips listed for it. I have also not seen any Station + WXP80 or WXP80 + Stand packages from Weller.Edit:Just noticed the Farnell link, there it shows the WXP80 as using the older silver series heating element not power response but the catalog page lists it as using Power Response tips.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 02:40:37 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on March 21, 2016, 01:50:30 amGiven what's on thedatasheetlinked bydonkey77on Farnell's product page, I suspect it's a recent release (2x specifications astbd, one of which is the P/N for the barrel/tip retainer). And for some reason, it seems they're currently withholding it from the North American market (using the EU/UK as a test market prior to full release?).As per tip family, it just statesLT, so tips are already widely available (still uses Silver Line heating tech).

author: FrankE
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 02:56:51 am
content: Aye, it may very well be recent. I went through loads of literature in recent weeks and I thought the WX irons progressed 55, 65, 120.I'm looking through the 'Weller Soldering Tips Brochure' on SOS just now and there's no mention of the 80. That's dated 2013.I noticed there were a lot of seemingly out of date catalogues. When I was shopping around I had to scroll to the bottom of every pdf to check dates (if even stated) and which country the documents came from because the station sets vary from country to country.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 03:11:49 am
content: Quote from: FrankE on March 22, 2016, 02:56:51 amQuite possibly, the 7/2014 is the earliest I see it mentioned in. As I said, almost no information so I think nanofrog is probably correct that although it made it into the catalog I have, it was only actually released very recently to a limited market. I'm going to contact my supplier and see if this can be ordered and also confirm what tips it uses.

author: donkey77
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 05:58:50 pm
content: This seems to be the latest datasheet, from Wellers/Apex's UK website -http://weller.de/en/Weller--Products--Product-details.html?article_id=D0092449001408612108A201#{"string":"","current_site":"weller","current_brand":"Weller"}What's the difference between the Silver-line heating and the Power response heating in actual use?

author: FrankE
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 07:44:39 pm
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on March 22, 2016, 03:11:49 amWeller seem a bit quiet about upcoming releases (and model retirement).There's a WT series coming out, which I've seen nothing of in the UK. It never came up in my serch in recent weeks so I assume it was prepended to their German Download Centre list very recently and still being pre-release hasn't made it onto their World of Weller WOW catalogue or glossies yet.http://www.simpex.ch/fileadmin/bereiche/produktionstechnik/News/30112015_3/2015_WT%20Line_E.pdfhttp://weller.de/sys/tools/curl_download.php?selected_file=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia-weller.de%2Fweller%2Fdata%2FDownloads%2FWT_Flyer_DE.pdf[edit: Oh, it's on the english language download pagehttp://www.weller.de/sys/tools/curl_download.php?selected_file=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia-weller.de%2Fweller%2Fdata%2FDownloads%2FWT_Flyer_GB.pdf]I wonder what models or series they plan to quietly retire?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 12:02:03 am
content: Quote from: donkey77 on March 22, 2016, 05:58:50 pmNot used both so can't comment on a performance difference. But since they didn't make a new heating element & tip series for the WXP80, I'd guess the performance difference isn't much in the 80W range at least.I'd say there's a real performance difference on the tips offered however, as the tips for the WX series I looked up on All-Spec all had Germany listed as the COO. Didn't see a single tip offering for this series of irons made in Bosnia (only tip COO I'm aware of that has QC problems), so the tip plating should be consistent. Never heard or experienced a plating issue with US, German, or Japanese made tips at any rate.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 07:28:08 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on March 23, 2016, 12:02:03 amThe LT series tips take a little longer to heat up (WSP80/WP80) compared to the WXP65 Power Response tips, but it is not much a few seconds. I don't feel any real difference in use.The biggest differences are price (LT tips are much cheaper), selection (a lot more LT tips to choose from), availability, and durability.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 01:05:18 pm
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on March 23, 2016, 07:28:08 amFWIW, my WMP micro iron heats up 2 - 3 seconds faster on average than my WSP80 as well (less power @ 65W, but less thermal mass to the tips as well, so they still heat up faster).

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 08:35:37 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on March 23, 2016, 01:05:18 pmI have a lot of LT tips some in common with the Power Response irons, the Power Response tips for both the WXP65 and WXP120 are faster to come up to temp than the LT tips. It makes little difference in actual use.Also, the micro iron and tweezers for the WDM, I now standby them at 300F for a few minutes rather than turning them off every time I put them in the stand to extend their life.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 04:25:33 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on March 23, 2016, 08:35:37 pmGood to know.Out of curiosity, how hard have you pushed them (i.e. how many layers, component package, and so on?)?Just wondering if it's like JBC, where you only see what it can really do when pushed really hard, such as accomplishing jobs without preheating that others can't.Quote from: blacksheeplogic on March 23, 2016, 08:35:37 pmIt's certainly a nice feature to have.I had to buy an optional stand to get it, but I don't regret doing so (got it at a decent price).

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 07:39:28 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on March 24, 2016, 04:25:33 amI run most of my irons at 700F (set to stand by 300F after a couple of mins in the stand). I also have 8 channels so I tend to switch between hand pieces if I need a larger tip.In terms of using a pre-heater, it takes time and I'm lazy.

author: FrankE
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2016, 03:31:05 am
content: Quote from: donkey77 on March 22, 2016, 05:58:50 pmI really can't tell much difference. The LT seems to heat quicker, but I didn't time them.I'm pretty slow, so even recovery time is something I'll never notice..BTW, I've been scratching my head with three bags of bits, each containing two black nozzly looking things. You don't happen to know where they go perchance. Nothing in the manuals and I looked online.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2016, 03:04:06 pm
content: Quote from: FrankE on March 25, 2016, 03:31:05 amGenerally speaking, if there's a tail on them (tube portion that extends beyond the threads), they go to the desoldering iron. If no tail, then they'll be for the hot air pencil.Posting a photo or two would help get it nailed down correctly though.

author: FrankE
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2016, 07:39:08 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on March 25, 2016, 03:04:06 pmSorry, it was the small hours of the morning, and my can't-be-botheredness prevented me getting up, walking 5 metres, picking up the bags and copying the part number to the thread.T0058703922 Steckverbinder fur AflageNow I knocked one of the stands over and noticed three holes each side of the base of the stand it would seem that the items are dowels / double ended spigots to hold adjacent stands together.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2016, 02:33:27 am
content: Quote from: FrankE on March 25, 2016, 07:39:08 pmI know I've been there on more than one occasion, so worries.At least you got it figured out.BTW, I'm not getting an image ^.Fortunately, I took off theimgtags, and the Alibaba site came up.

author: FrankE
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2016, 11:36:37 am
content: Yeah, I had to google for images and there was only that one. I couldn't see how to upload an image from file.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2016, 05:01:45 pm
content: Quote from: FrankE on March 26, 2016, 11:36:37 amWhen you're typing out a post, there's anAttachments and other optionslink just below the text box, on the left-hand side. Click it, and it will allow you to upload files.

author: FrankE
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2016, 09:18:13 pm
content: Well, I'm kinda up and running with both the Weller WXR 3032 3 (and a vac pen) channel rework station and the WSD81i single channel 80W.They all heat up really fast, recover quickly.The WXP 65 iron on the 3032 has a wider range than I expected. I've soldered a bunch of battery tags with it, though it laboured a wee bit on a ground plane on a wireless set.The hot air gun I've hardly had twanked up at all and it has been fine reflowing on old SMD and PTH boards.The desolder gun. Why did I not get one before? Faffing about with spring vacuums pens and braid. I'm working on a corroded PCB board of a shaver (mixed PTH and SMD) and it's been brilliant to clear up the pads.The lighting round the irons to indicate heating and setpoint achieved are handy but depending how I have put the desoldering iron in the stand the light isn't visible as it doesn't go all the way round the handle. That very minor. It only really matters on first switch on and it a matter of seconds.I've a few things to iron out though. Folk keep pilfering my DB9 to -RJ45 adaptors. I've none left so I haven't yet connected the unit to my PC (also on my bench/desk) so I can set and log the parameters there. Maybe they should network enable the unit in the next refresh? It would make the wiring easier for the integrators in commercial facilities.[Edit:The Com port at the rear of the WXR is an RJ (6 pin) Connectivity to thePC is by buying more stuff from Weller, specifically what looks like an RJ11 to RJ45 T0058764710 lead and an RJ?? to DB9 adaptor. T0058764711. I can't make out the connectors from the web images but the part numbers are as stated by Weller. Who the hell has a DB9 serial port on their computer these days?]I need to order some more tips. I ordered a couple last week but it's a holiday weekend so all my orders from last week have yet to arrive.It was a lot to spend but they're of good build, will last and Wellers seem to hold much of their value.. I got a good deal on the 3032 from the same fellow I bought the WSD81i fromhttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Weller-WSD81i-Digital-Soldering-Station-WSP80-WDH-10-Stand-NEW-NO-BOX-/401092479137?hash=item5d62f988a1:g:IDkAAOSwUV9Wppek

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2016, 07:31:50 am
content: What's the WX vacuum picker called?Can't seem to find it anywhere.

author: donkey77
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2016, 01:48:02 pm
content: The vacuum pick up included is this:http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/pick-up-tools/0135890/Glad I'm not the only one who doesn't seem to notice much difference between different models/technologies of irons.Personally I think if you get a reasonable level adjustable temp station and iron/s you're not going to have too many problems. It then comes down to tip availability and cost etc and that's going to depend on your locality and available distributors. It seems what's good for Europe might be expensive in the US or vice versa.p.s. I found 3 bags of the plastic nozzles/pins in the drawer, I hadn't paid too much attention to them at the time, assuming they were just spare pipe nozzles/joiners.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2016, 03:55:23 pm
content: Quote from: donkey77 on March 29, 2016, 01:48:02 pmI whole heartedly agree.One example that'a harder to get in the US is Ersa. Kurtz Ersa offers their stations directly, and AFAIK, there's only one distributor. But the biggest issue IMHO, is the fact they're only offered in 230V.FWIW, it seems like the hand operated equipment is an after-thought compared to their production equipment here. Makes sense at any rate, as production products should generate higher profits by a substantial amount.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2016, 10:24:39 pm
content: Quote from: bson on March 29, 2016, 07:31:50 amThe Weller Vacuum Pen product catalog code is : T0052918499. WVP VACUUM PICK UP

author: shawnb
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 09:21:36 pm
content: Thanks for this thread, I am in the market for a rework station (leaning towards the WXR3 -- only a bit more than a Hakko, and can't justify 2x the price for a JBC) and had some of the same questions.Does anyone have any thoughts on the advantages/disadvantages of the WDXV120 inline desoldering iron vs the WDXP120? Other than the disposable collection chamber in the WDXV, is it mainly a matter of preference for handle thickness, or is there a difference in the way that the two designs perform for certain jobs?Thanks,Shawn

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 02:18:40 am
content: Quote from: shawnb on May 21, 2016, 09:21:36 pmIt's price, preference and ergonomics mainly. I don't like the DXV hand piece, it feels cheap and uncomfortable to use compared with the XDP. They both get the job done and I can't really say I find much of a difference in performance.

author: zitoune
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2017, 02:57:30 pm
content: Hello,Reviving an old topic - I am trying to figure out the latest WXR3 models since it seems Weller is retiring the WR3 models.I was hopping someone would know the difference between different MPN references. Across the web we can find for example MPN: T0053501699 and MPN: T0053501699NOfficial Weller website references the WXR 3030 as T0053501699Nwhile the ApexToolGroup store references WXR3 models as being obsolete and somehow replaces with WXR3N models, but I cannot spot any difference between both.Thanks.