British Gas disabling HIVE devices claiming they are not efficient enough? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2023, 03:55:30 am
content: So customers "buy" these things, pay to see it (SUBSCRIPTION below) and British Gas who are behind it come up with an excuse that they are working on more efficient versions as an excuse to brick them and scrap the service.https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2023/08/hive-axe-cameras-smart-devices-consumer-rights/QuoteThe terms and conditions means THEY CAN DO WHAT THEY LIKE and have more rights to it than the buyer.QuoteNo not hive, another CLOUD product that you don't run in house and control.QuoteThat's right, you brought it and PAID to see it.https://www.gbnews.com/news/british-gas-hive-security-system-discontinuedQuote* Big plans to sell replacements under the excuse it will be cheaper to run.For the nature of these sorts of things I'd consider them rental but no have to "buy" them first.Sounds like a big con to me and betrayal for the security stuff.When the solar panel installer started to talk about "APPS" on phones, "SMART WIFI STICK" and "CLOUD MONITORING" last year, my confidence and trust went to zero but fortunately there is a way to run an inhouse appliance Homeassistant for Fox-ess stuff.So this what happens when they "buy" something and pay to see it.Joke:Owner buys a fish tank with fish and water but to see the fish they have to pay to put their head under the cloth covering the tank to see the fish.Efficiency more important than your security... pay up for newer version or be left without itWhat do you think?

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2023, 07:41:36 am
content: So you are surprised?What surprises me is that anyone would buy a product that they can't completely own and control. But then, here I am using a computer with Windows. .........

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2023, 08:43:21 am
content: A possible opportunity for repurpossing thesecloudfogged devices with Tomato or OpenWRT. I wonder if the real reason for the demise is cyber security issues or the third party cloud provider is linked to the Chinese government? Just more e-waste.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2023, 09:16:38 am
content: Quote from: EPAIII on August 17, 2023, 07:41:36 amNo surprise at all - the average member of the public has no clue about these issues. Ditto issues like repairability, security etc. How else would douchebag companies like HP sell any printers for example.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2023, 10:47:05 am
content: This is why my smart home stuff is all Zigbee.I have a Drayton Wiser system for heating control. I specifically bought it because it can work entirely locally, with Home Assistant. I will never, ever use a product supported only by the cloud and will try to convince others to avoid these products.Hive seems like a really nasty company/division of Centrica. Perhaps we need a law that stipulates if you release a cloud-enabled product you are required to support it for at least a decade and if you do discontinue it, are required to pass the resources for supporting the technology over to the open source community, including domain name end points etc.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2023, 11:30:32 am
content: Quote from: EPAIII on August 17, 2023, 07:41:36 amThis is why I bought a Mac this year.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2023, 11:47:57 am
content: Quote from: EPAIII on August 17, 2023, 07:41:36 amI knew it was bound to happen eventually no surprise there but the surprising element I find is when this happens time again and people will not learn from it and still buy into this nonsense... "We won't buy another NEST etc"https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/homeowners-security-systems-rendered-useless-british-gas/QuoteI like how the telegraph put the quotes over it.QuoteDear victims, before you go out and buy the new "pivoted" product think of what they have done and can do it again when they feel that it is not efficient or "sustainable"...never mind how none of your business you stupid consumer.After theirtoughmove I wouldn't trust another product or claim forget about sustainable, what's the point.QuoteSo they screwed him over in the name of efficiency and sustainability.QuoteAs a way to manipulate and rip off billpayers with non sustainable/ efficient products that they admit some years after where they scam them and brick their products. I think it is certainly good for their pocket (British Gas) if they can do things like this and scrap the service when people buy into it.Good for your pocket...sounds to me like the bullshit language and claims from Thames Water 20 years about water meters... "Good for your pocket... Good for the environment"... "the fairest way to pay for water" infrastructure/flat rate vs metering and I wouldn't class any as the fairest way as the rates may differ by area.QuoteWhat control do they have now?QuoteWell HOW ABOUT replacing it for LIKE FOR LIKE? but then still waste.Quote*More like product obsolescence where smart is making people buy this crap and taking it away from them in future when they feel like in whatever name they choose, whether it'd be efficiently, carbon net or saving the planet.Joke:“At Hive we’ve got big plansto brick your devices...in the name of the environment and the cash flow in our pocket. You can achieve carbon net zero by simply not using them.In the name of the environment, we'll start projects to help the environment, pull out of those and start other projects like heat pumps in order to maintain carbon efficiency levels and sustainability of our cash flow and our man power on these projects.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 17, 2023, 09:16:38 amQuoteIt reminds me a bit like HP+:Be good to the planet, be good to your pocket, help aim to reach net zero carbon efficiencies butKISS OUR ASS FIRST.... then we decide when you can use your HIVE devices.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2023, 01:09:44 pm
content: QuoteAs someone whos recently switched to a thames water meter i can confirm it is very good for my pocket,my water rates are a third of what they were on the flat rate,same property same water usage.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2023, 03:08:03 pm
content: A heap of Hive products on eBay. This image suggests that some Hive smart thermostats may really be a rebadged Zigbee on the inside.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2023, 03:17:19 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 17, 2023, 11:30:32 amJoke's on both of you

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2023, 03:45:36 am
content: Fortunately there maybe some hope for them with Homeassistant:https://community.home-assistant.io/t/can-i-integrate-hive-active-heating-into-ha-without-the-hive-hub/246728/19QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWhat a nice alternative and it looks like BritishGas haven't locked them down fully.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2023, 12:24:14 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on August 18, 2023, 03:45:36 amMaybe that's a problem?IoT devices should be 100% black boxes that not even the most dedicated computer geek with a side channel 'spark machine' and a JTAG swim probe can attack. Even if it is just to upgrade those crappy flashing LED colours.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2023, 01:30:25 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on August 17, 2023, 03:08:03 pmHive does use Zigbee for most of their heating control stuff and some people have reverse engineered parts of the protocol, but Zigbee supports encryption so it's possible some of their devices will only pair with their hubs (unsure how their cameras would work for instance, the video likely needs to go to a central server).The bigger problem is not everyone wants to mess around with Home Assistant or Zigbee2MQTT to support Hive -- they bought a system expecting it to work for a reasonable time and within 4 years, they've killed the entire product line off. Very bad.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2023, 02:35:02 pm
content: Quoteyet,lets see what any final software update does.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2023, 04:47:24 pm
content: A seven year old teardown of a Centrica Hive Hub controller here :https://datapoint.uk/2016/06/hive-nano-v2-hub-teardown/Some possible ICSP/JTAG pin headers? The original authors did not have much luck cracking in. References on the PCB silks to 'AlertMe.com'.QuoteAlertMe.com Inc was dissolved in September 2021.According to UK Companies House, the full accounts made up to 31st December 2021 reported that Centrica Connected Home Limited (aka HIVE) made a loss of £48M, compared to the previous year's £151M. In that year the company made a gross profit of £15M but was crushed by operating costs of £45M. The Homeshield product was scheduled for demolition. Net liabilities totalled £462M!Referenced:https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/05782908/filing-history

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2023, 09:26:25 pm
content: Is there any way people foolish enough to have bought these a while ago might be able to force a back-charge on the payment? Might have been a long time ago, but perhaps if one, accurately given HIVE's behaviour, described the product as fraudulent or such then maybe an extended back-charging period for VISA, direct debits or credit cards might apply? If a fair number of customers did that it could really hit HIVE in the wallet.The lesson the wider public should learn, but doesn't seem to, is never to buya product dependent on a remote server, but if there could be a mass back-charging of payments to HIVE, enough to collapse the company, then maybe other companies would learn a lesson and not sell those sort of dodgy IoT devices in the first place.I would definitely support requiring all companies which sell such devices to publish all the info necessary for people to build open-source local server backends for the devices if at any point they withdraw the product line or go bust. I wouldn't go so far as having an independent central repository of such info to be published when an IoT company collapses (or retires a device), as I doubt many companies would want to share their software that way foroperational products, but I'd have big personal punishments on the bosses of any companies who didn't ensure such publication was done as the last act of a closing company.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2023, 09:57:18 pm
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on August 18, 2023, 09:26:25 pmMost S.75 stuff is taken on the chin by the card company, it's not worth fighting it with the supplier, if a large number of claims come through for one product then it might change (e.g. flights over COVID were a good one).The problem I've had with S.75 is credit card companies deliberately make it hard to claim - everything has to be done by post, they wait weeks between sending letters, and in my case, they've just started ghosting me so I'll have to get the FOS involved.It's a shame we don't really have 'class actions' in the UK. They are often used frivolously, and lawyers do benefit more than claimants, but the idea of everyone ganging up together to fight a problem and force a manufacturer to correct an error, or at least compensate owners, is a pleasant one.