Bye bye FM - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 04:18:18 am
content: Norway becomes first country to switch off FM radioNorway on Wednesday completed its transition to digital radio, becoming the first country in the world to shut down national broadcasts of its FM radio network despite some grumblings.For more info, click here. Above quoted from this article:https://www.thelocal.no/20171213/norway-becomes-first-country-to-switch-off-fm-radioPersonally, I am still on AM radio! AM beats FM for news, traffic, talk shows, etc. I would not even notice if FM gone kaput in the US of A.

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 05:43:10 am
content: Radio (am/fm/sirius/digital blah blah blah) - what's that?Listening to radio... people still do that??I know the music I like and I stream it (BT or via flash/usb) to a mechless player in my vehicles. If they made a mechless without radio, I'd be happy to purchase that. On one vehicle I've not even bothered to connect the antenna.cheers,george.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 06:15:42 am
content: Broadcast stations are so cheap in the US many of them did not even bother with digital. If you ever want to see a petty argument over simple inexpensive things, visit a FM station in the US. I have seen knock down drag out fights over the dumbest things like who drank the last of the coffee and who will buy another can or who's responsibility it is to buy toilet paper.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 06:39:04 am
content: Digital radio in the US is bullshit. Unlike pretty much the whole rest of the world where digital stations can be freely decoded, the US is locked into a completely proprietary system owned by a sleazy company called iBiquity that has a monopoly on the chips required to decode it and they charge stations a hefty annual fee to broadcast it. Since few people are willing to pay for an expensive receiver containing those proprietary chips the system has largely failed to catch on outside of car radios and even then I don't think it gets a lot of use. One of my cars has a head unit capable of receiving it, I've played with the feature a few times but probably spent less than an hour listening to it in the several years I've had the thing.Personally I don't see the problem with good old analog FM, it's simple, reliable and gets the job done. The sound quality is good enough for what it's used for.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 09:12:29 am
content: Quote from: calexanian on December 14, 2017, 06:15:42 amIt's not about cheap or not. It's about the radio spectrum being overcrowded and needing the space for more efficient digital applications.Not that I entirely agree with that. I've experienced first hand that a low quality noisy analog transmission is superior to a digital one that bows out and turns into unrecognizable junk. The quality of analog systems is lower in optimal scenarios, but seem to be more robust in subtopimal ones.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 09:56:59 am
content: Quote from: georges80 on December 14, 2017, 05:43:10 amnot for musici listen to the news, the guys reading the newspaper in the early morning while commuting... and our equivalent of the howard stern show

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 11:10:47 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 14, 2017, 06:39:04 amCity based 'Radio' here has been over-run by coke snorting coffeeholic wankers with booze hangovers and or mental issues.They talk shyte, giggle and jest childishly play noisy garbage masquerading as music, the ads are annoying unbearable drivelThe phone callers that get baited by these studio twats aren't the full quid eitherWho cares if this type of imbecilic disturbing behavior on the radio is broadcast in digital or FM? No thanksThe battling country radio stations are far superior in every respect, they play real music and conduct civilized chat and relay useful informationNothing wrong with AM and FM if the content is worthy of a tune in....and don't get me started on Digital TV programming and content...

author: shawty
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 12:13:55 pm
content: Well if the complaints I received in my housing estate towards my experiments using an RPi to broadcast FM are anything to go by, then quite a lot of my neighbors in out cul-de-sac still use FM radios :-)

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 12:44:06 pm
content: The shutdown of FM in Germany is scheduled for 2025. And next year all new radios have to support DAB+ or internet streaming.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 02:36:01 pm
content: FM will never completely die. When the commercial broadcasters disappear, pirates will fill the gaps like they do already here in London. The transmitters are cheap to build and efficient, the receivers are cheap and ubiquitous. Ofcom can't do a Pokemon and catch them all

author: Nauris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 03:27:28 pm
content: Quote from: madires on December 14, 2017, 12:44:06 pmI really hope that madness is not spreading here. I tried to count, we have like 20+ radios here. So you get new radios, spend half a week changing them and still have no HI-FI sound in your forkliftPointless waste of money just for the sake of 'digital progress'.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 03:58:44 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on December 14, 2017, 09:56:59 amIn the USA, many commuters listen to the local news, local weather, and local traffic. Satellite radio stations on the other hand are mainly national/inter-national and don't do local coverage if at all. That is why even AM radio stations are not only hanging on but actually doing well. Commuting hours are the coveted time slots for shows. Some shows boast the millions of listeners they have. The most popular (I believe) is the Rush show claiming to have 20 million listeners nation wide.What is done by AM/FM analog can of course be done by digital - but if you are currently an analog broadcaster, switching to digital is guaranteed to loose customer for you. Almost every car has an analog AM/FM radio, almost none has digital AM/FM radio. So day one, you will go from thousands/millions to almost none.[Almost entirely re-edited - pasted wrong on the first go around]

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 04:10:07 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 14, 2017, 09:12:29 amExactly what I have experienced with Digital TV Broadcasts, a crap if you happen to have perfect antenna and good weather. With a bit poor antenna and or a poor radio weather the broadcast is useless, just few big pixels on black screen, where the analog broadcast were somewhat usable as information transmitter. (Distorted picture and sound, but at least you had picture and sound). Almost nothing happened from the reasoning which it were used to sell the digiTV to the people (from government).Besides Digital is so last season, ternary is bigger and better.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 04:10:34 pm
content: Ha, don't get me started about digital radio.In the Netherlands they started testing with DAB a couple of years (decade?) ago. Supposedly the best thing since sliced bread. Me, being a gadget freak, I bought a very nice and rather expensive VitaAudio DAB radio. On which I was able to receive 4 digital stations due to a lousy reception. Living in the wrong street it seemed.Two years later I move out of Amsterdam to a spot 50k north. No DAB service at all. Huh? Turns out that this nice new digital radio signal cannot be received everywhere. This in a country the size of Los Angeles, but then flat. Another 2 years later they manage to install a transmitter that I am able to receive. Hooray. Only, in the meantime they thought it smart to exchange DAB for DAB+. I now can tune in to the stations but due to a different encoding of the audio I only get silence on my non-upgradable VitaAudio radio. Really clean, digital HiFi silence.They call it progress. I don't know. I do know that I own a 35 year old Quad FM4 tuner that receives FM as well as it did its first days in 1982. I vouched to never EVER put money in a digital radio again. If they want me to listen to DAB+ they issue me the receiver. Up until it is switched off I will continue to listen to FM. Then I'll play my own records. Or hum to myself if need be.Meanwhile, if anybody is interested in a very nice looking, hardly used white VitaAudio R1 DABnonplus radio let me know.

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 04:16:22 pm
content: Quote from: woody on December 14, 2017, 04:10:34 pmI suggest you send it to the parliament with a Happy Xmas! card.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 04:27:33 pm
content: Sending a heavy square box with a dial, a display and an antenna to the parliament will get me on the no-fly list ASAP

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 04:54:17 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on December 14, 2017, 03:58:44 pmPrecisely. I also listen to the radio at work, because radio means that my eyes are free to do something else.QuoteThat may be related to what james_s said, because from what i know here in italy (and i think in europe) every new car since 2010 or so has DAB+ compatible radiosI actually prefer analog FM too. I usedd to commute/travel by train in areas with very poor reception (valleys) but i could hear the radio even if it was swamped with noise

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 06:17:59 pm
content: Quote from: woody on December 14, 2017, 04:10:34 pmYou might want to check that the NiCd backup battery hasn't started to leak...

author: takahidehimself
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2017, 01:04:44 pm
content: Thanks to the Norwegians we (my workplace) have done even better this year, so I'm all for them switching off FM on the other side of the border...

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2017, 07:55:37 pm
content: I personally think the removal of analog television was also stupid. At least it's still free, but it just means that people who want free TV have to use an extra piece of equipment.So no, it's not "modernizing", it's just beaurocratic idiocy.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2017, 08:30:58 pm
content: I tend to agree, it made millions of portable sets useless, and in the end I think hardly anyone uses it. Most people don't even realize you can get a HD signal over the air and has been mentioned the picture becomes unwatchable under less than ideal circumstances where an analog set would still receive a snowy picture. Everyone who wants a clear HD picture already has cable or satellite.That said, between most of the shows being garbage now and those stupid persistent logos every channel has plastered over the corner of the picture, I find TV to be intolerable these days and have not had anything other than a bluray/dvd player and streaming box connected to my TV in years.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2017, 08:45:49 pm
content: And then governments complain about an increase of e-junk

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 12:05:20 am
content: Anybody remember the pirate FM stations back in the day when somebody would build a 25W FM transmitter in a biscuit tin and broadcast from the top of a tower block and the "radio police" would scurry around and try to find it ? Nope probably not but the music was good and it was community broadcasting. Back then it took dedication and effort to do that shit, big respectA Now you could probably do the same stuff with a PC and an internet connection but that's not the same.Maybe the Norwegian broadcasters have have had the foresight to see that very few people listen to FM radio these days let alone AM, or maybe the FM broadcast spectrum is up sale.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 12:29:05 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 14, 2017, 11:10:47 amNever have I read a more accurate description of commercial radio. I can't stand it either. Haven't listened to it for many, many years.However I do enjoy some of the AM stations including talk-back. The "Money news" show on 2GB is quite good as is the gardening programme on the weekend.It seems that while FM stations are losing popularity, AM stations like 2GB, 2CH, 954 AM, and ABC are topping the charts. Good to see early-1900's technology still going strong.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 01:05:17 am
content: Funny, AM radio is virtually dead in the US. The only thing on it are low budget talk stations, political and religious crap, occasional sportscasts and one retro station around here. I listen to that occasionally for the old style radio shows but it's pretty clear there isn't much money in that business. It has that sort of vibe as though it's transmitted out of some hobbyist's basement, shows sometimes start at odd times, the occasional Windows notification sound effect ends up on the air, and the advertisements range from irritating car insurance ads all the way down to scammy diet and dick pills.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 06:28:34 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 14, 2017, 09:12:29 amGreat, so there will be more cookie cutter Clear Channel stations broadcasting the same thing. I suppose since I stopped listening even when the alternative is nothing, the impending obsolescence of my AM/FM car radio is irrelevant.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 11:42:28 am
content: There is tons of spectrum space that is not used practically at all, ever. This becomes obvious when you look around with a $10 RTLSDR. So there is tons of spectrum for innovative uses. The problem is corporate rule.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 04:13:56 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on December 16, 2017, 11:42:28 amMust you make everything into a tin foil hat discussion? Corporate rule has little to do with it. It's a legislative matter at worst, and technology itself probably plays the most important rule.Besides, what makes you think the radio spectrum isn't closely packed? The fact that it isn't used at that very moment doesn't mean it's free to use. A shooting range does not make for a good picnic spot between shots.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_Frequency_Allocations_Chart_2016_-_The_Radio_Spectrum.pdf

author: TassiloH
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2017, 01:02:37 am
content: Quote from: madires on December 15, 2017, 08:45:49 pmIndeed. DSR (digital sat radio, back when sat TV was still analog) - gone. DAB (digital radio, first gen.) - gone. DVB-T (digital terrestrial TV first generation) - gone. DVB-H: Never took off. The lifetime of all these standards seems to have been shorter than the age of any FM radio receiver in this household.I don't get why it is good or necessary to get rid of FM radio: It is blocking just a 20MHz band (so around 1/20th of what the old analog TV used), good enough for the job (car/workplace/background noise), lots of hard-to-replace receivers. Having 100 instead of 20 stations: no difference, there will just be more stations playing essentially the same rotation.I guess I wouldn't buy any receiver hardware for a new audio broadcast standard that isn't even in worldwide use, instead I'd get some internet radio players (or just bluetooth audio receivers for the old stereos) for the house and a better mobile data plan, at least this gives a better choice of stations from all over the world.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2017, 09:49:45 am
content: I suspect the reasons behind some of these changes may be 'wastemaking' -it's an obvious and massive advantage to manufacturers when perfectly serviceable hardware has to be scrapped en masse.Other examples:Windows XP EOL, and software with designed-in security vulns through the use of C/C++.The anti diesel-car crusade -after the Greens promoted them as low-carbon transport.The MITM paranoia and HTTPS. (Not strictly wastemaking, but likewise a certificate and hosting sales scam)

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2017, 10:54:48 am
content: I think it’s simpler than that. You can only build stuff based on what you know now. At some point the effort to correct your mistakes you weren’t aware of at the time you did it outweighs the effort to just burn it and start again. No one wants to pay for the additional costs of foresightXP was architecturally flawed so had to be burned as were 32-bit x86 CPUs. C/C++ is prone to human error due to lack of foresight. Diesels were again foresight. HTTPS is a cat and mouse game built on a pile of hacks (well strictly TLS) so what you knew when you built it was only valid for a short window.This is just iterative progress. No agenda. No wastemaking.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 04:27:33 pm
content: There is a global movement to reverse democracy and its being accomplished by mass control of information. FM stations are still up there, at least in my area they are the most interesting and fun thing happening in broadcasting. Television is crap, but radio is still good.Since the costs to set up an FM station are fairly modest they are being targeted. There is no shortage of spectrum, thats a total fabrication. They should allocate some other band and not eliminate FM.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 04:43:13 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on December 18, 2017, 04:27:33 pmI posted a map of the usage of the spectrum just a few posts ago. Could you please just look at that, rather than rehashing the same tin foil hattery again?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 04:56:49 pm
content: Indeed.Sounds like the old analogue cable bollocks again. It's about bandwidth. With compression you can squeeze a whole load more digital data down the same pipe. 99% of the users don't give a crap how the sound gets there, they just want the sound. 99% of the engineers on the projects have the same goal which is low bandwidth usage, less power required, good enough reproduction, easier tuning etc.Also radio is shit! The only decent radio here in London is the pirates and frequency and spectrum allocation doesn't seem to bother them that much. I listen to my pirates on my DAB radio (which incidentally does FM as well...)

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 09:23:24 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on December 16, 2017, 12:05:20 amThey still do that now! There's probably 50 or so pirate stations on in London as I type this.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 10:40:55 pm
content: There's so many in London that they made a comedy mockumentary about it (People Just do Nothing):http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01z03jtIncidentally this is set about 2 minutes down the road from me.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 10:42:09 pm
content: That programme is hilarious!https://www.transmissionzero.co.uk/radio/london-pirate-radio/

author: shawty
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 08:26:30 pm
content: Everybody, all around the world....This is a call to arms.Get your Raspberry PI's/Arduinos/Whatever platform you use out the cupboard, and start broadcasting....Broadcast everything you can/anything you can... Music, Data, Speech you name it. Let's fill the airwaves and see what happens :-DIf your within range of the North East UK, I'm chucking out simple text files as data using the cw command and minimodem for various baud style audio transmissions :-) Don't ask me what frequency I'm currently on however, Iv'e no Idea... and Iv'e had too much whiskey at the moment to go climbing ladders into my loft to look at the RPi's display.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 08:29:02 pm
content: Be careful or you’ll get a stern letter from ofcom

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 10:34:55 pm
content: In Germany the FM band is getting close to the limits. In some areas you start to get two stations overlap. So they either need more bandwidth or a different more efficient modulation. They went for digital radio.In principle this is a good idea, as the stations need less power and less problems with multi path reception. However they are really slow in bringing up the new DAB+ stations and sending power is too low in many areas. So reception is not really good in many places - and this is when the first generation DAB is already phased out. So they never finished in the time the first standard was supported.The main downside on digital audio is that the receiver needs a little more power. So it can be a little harder on the batteries, but it is not that bad anymore. It is more a problem they shut down AM radio as AM radio offered longer range reception.With digital TV, the extra HW is not that bad. Modern TV's usually already includes a receiver for DVB-T/T2/S/S2. Especially in the US analog TV terrestrial was not the best technical quality.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2017, 04:29:43 am
content: Sounds like what they really need is fewer stations, aren't most of them crap anyway? I know I only ever listen to 2 or 3 different stations on the rare occasions I listen to the radio anymore. More stations = more advertiser money though I guess.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2017, 11:49:54 am
content: We got two and a half types of radio stations. There are the public service stations which are financed primarily by our "broadcasting tax", but also get some money from selling airtime for ads. The other stations are privately run and need the ad money. And the remaining 'half' are some tiny amateur stations covering just a city or a local area.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2017, 12:31:14 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 23, 2017, 04:29:43 amAgreed. There's some gold out there but it's not in the usual places.There's an unintentional comedy show that runs constantly on 160m amateur band (top band / 3.5MHz) here in the UK. There are three or four amateur radio operators who just chat, some of the driest humor there is and take stabs at each other. It's hilarious. You can pick it up on WebSDR.That's far better than any programming that you get on commercial radio.For music, there's Apple Music / Spotify / Google Play etc or old fashioned mp3s.

author: shawty
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2017, 03:07:12 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 22, 2017, 08:29:02 pmI'm counting on it .....LOL

author: mrf184
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 01:25:04 pm
content: Hi all,I am an EE in China and using the resources here you can produce high power FM transmitters (50W) for very cheap.On the refurbished chips market exists UHF power transistors (60W) taken from disassembled cell phone tower for $2 in abundance, they can operate at 100MHz because the internal matching network is ineffective at low frequency. mrf9060, mrf5s9070, etc etcThe driver can use transistor for walkie-talkie, rqa0009 etcThe FM modulator can be very simple, using PLL chip and transistor oscillator it can be made for few dollars.The output low pass filter is little more tricky, inductors need to be winded by hand.I maybe will manufacture and put it on aliexpress, maybe $25, it will be bring your own psu and heatsink.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 03:24:52 pm
content: Interesting idea. Might get confiscated at the border though as there are usually import restrictions on such things.A design for one here which roughly matches your description:https://ludens.cl/Electron/fmtx/fmtx.htmlBig problem is antennas.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 04:54:58 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 17, 2017, 10:54:48 amExactly. People seem to idealize XP, but the world out there has changed and it's woefully outdated in regards to architecture and security. The same applies to Windows 7 to a lesser degree, though that's been developed further and turned into Windows 8, 8.1 and Windows 10. That wouldn't have been possible if you would have mucked about with an OS not even intended for 64 bit systems.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 05:10:55 pm
content: What people idealize about XP is the user interface, and IMHO it is quite good, Windows 7 gradually grew on me and in most ways I find its UI superior to XP however the calculator and mspaint in 7 are garbage, easily replaced by the superior XP versions.The back end of XP is what was woefully outdated but there's absolutely no reason they couldn't have put the Win8/10 back end under the XP/Win7 UI but they didn't. The complaints about Win8 were almost entirely centered around the horrible joke of a UI they used, Win10 makes a few steps toward correcting that, but completely screws up the back end making it a nearly unusable and completely unacceptable OS.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 06:25:20 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 24, 2017, 05:10:55 pmThere were so many useful capabilities removed from the Windows 7 interface that I have still not made the transition. For instance custom file manager columns are no longer supported which means no handy display and sorting of directories by size. Microsoft claims this capability was removed because of performance problems but that is why my last system was built with a fast RAID configuration and SSDs make this a non-issue. I suspect it was also removed to prevent competition with their "database" file system replacement for NTFS which crashed anyway.QuoteI think Microsoft was trying to leverage their desktop monopoly to gain market share on tablets and PDAs by unifying the interface but the only result for them was driving customers away from Windows. Apple is apparently going down this dead end as well.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 07:23:02 pm
content: Quote from: shawty on December 14, 2017, 12:13:55 pmHow did they know it was you?

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 07:33:45 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 15, 2017, 08:30:58 pmI didn't find that to be the case, at least where I was living in New Zealand at the time the digital TV was enabled but analogue still available.I pretty much only watch DVDs and things from the computer (via an AppleTV). I had an *ancient* set of rabbit ears but never watched broadcast TV because the technical quality was awful. Then I got my first flat-screen TV in 2011 and found that actually the digital broadcasts were very nice quality. On the rabbit ears!

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 09:04:49 pm
content: It would be more profitable to force everybody to buy new. That's called planned obsolescence, churning, whatever. If you're an insider, you generate wealth by means ofregulatory capture.Quote from: james_s on December 14, 2017, 06:39:04 am

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 09:07:07 pm
content: Usually the digital transmission can work with rather low signal levels. It is a little hard to compare, but with sat TV they reuse the same satellite for digital TV that were used for analog before. The same transmitter (e.g. same power) can now support something like 2 to 8 times the number of channels and they still work with the same signal dishes. If with poor weather the signal gets weak, the analog Signal was sometimes pretty bad. Digital TV signal is down only very rare - it happens, but only if analog signal would be pretty unvisitable too.With digital radio, they seem to have reduced the station power a little too much - so reception in some areas is not that good. At a signal strength where DAB+ still just works, one would not even notice there is an analog FM station on manual search. In real life one would be outside the planed range and thus often gets a signal mix of several distant stations. When heavily used there are hardly holes in the limited FM band. AFAIK DAB+ is about 20-30 dB more efficient. However they somehow seem to have overestimated the digital advantage.A 50 W station is not a strong transmitter on FM - maybe a local station for a small town. Maybe usable for DAB+.the big advantage with FM is that the recievrs are already there and cheap.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 09:19:33 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on December 24, 2017, 09:04:49 pmYou can't be forced to buy new as long as non-consumption is an option. Or substitution.I bought a portable CD player for my car in 1995 (and then an iPod in 2002) because radio sucked. It hasn't gotten better. They can shut the whole thing down for all I care -- and could have 20 years ago.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2017, 03:28:59 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 24, 2017, 09:19:33 pmOr piracy.QuoteIt might be nice to retain ubiquitous broadcast radio for emergency notifications when services fail but in order for that to happen, it must be free and minimally entertaining. That is the only reason I have an OTA (over the air) digital television receiver.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 12:13:18 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 24, 2017, 07:33:45 pmI've also compared the local over-the-air digital broadcast to the same programs delivered by the cable provider (that's all digital too), and the OTA is superior. The only issue is that there are two main broadcast-tower locations in my city (on two different mountains), and they're on opposite ends of town, so when the little indoor antenna is set to pick up signals from one mountain, it doesn't really get the other mountain. I think I have an antenna switch somewhere; I should get a second cheap antenna and switch between them!(Aside: the previous car's radio had a satellite receiver and a free three-month trial subscription, and I compared its NPR broadcast feed to the local terrestrial feed and the latter was much better. SirusXM really sounds like 64 kb/s MP3. It's awful.)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 06:27:07 am
content: The problem with any of the digital services is the broadcaster can crank down the bit rate to just above the level where too many people complain and add more channels. The result is that "HD" radio often sounds like crap and iBiquity eventually stated that HD doesn't mean "high definition", it's only a brand.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 08:08:29 am
content: HD radio is often Hardly Distinguishable from noise in most cases, which is a pity as it is otherwise quite a good transport method.However the overall power use is the same as analogue FM and TV, just instead of the broadcaster paying the lion's share of the power bill for the 60-500kw of power in the coverage area, with digital the power use is spread out over the user base, in the high power use of the always on decoder chips instead. I have never seen a digital decoder unit that was cold running, always you have a very hot running ADC in the tuner front end ( often the first part to fail in use, those things are kind of known to run just short of desoldering themselves and are not heatsinked well) and then a big FPGA or ASIC that does the digital side that always is running, even with the set top box in standby, which with almost all boxes is never. standby in the set top box or integrated receiver is just the video and audio output sides muted, all the rest is still active, just in case there is an over the air upgrade, a key is added ( or deleted) or there is a recording scheduled for a PVR unit.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 01:03:54 pm
content: FM is crap. AM is even worse. You cannot beat DAB+ for free to air. I have not listened to FM in about 20 years, except when I go through the Domain tunnel in Melbourne. Unfortunately as far as radios go, once we leave Melbourne for distant country areas, we are stuck with FM or AM in the car.I think in 10 years, free-to-air TV will be near dead in Australia, as will AM and FM radio. Free-to-air TV is already dying as they fill the channels with B-grade non-stop-talking American sitcoms and brain deadening reality crap, interlaced with repetitive advertisements aimed at the dumber end of town. Even our ABC (www.abc.net.au) is starting to drop in quality as its news is almost a copy of the SBS news (www.sbs.com.au). There was a time when the news services are quite independent. Now journalists and reporters seem to spew out the same garbage about Trump, Bieber and other famousartists.Times are changing fast.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 01:29:37 pm
content: Quotesadly not all the company charge a lot of € for Digital Radio.Quotehere in Austria quite no Free TV you have to pay a Monthly Fee for the State owned Channels.QuoteNope becouse here quite everyone listen the State owned Radio ChannelsQuoteIn Austria to.QuoteIn Germany...Here DAB+ is used by the alternative Radio Company and gets ignored by the State owned Radio Company the Broadcast Radio via DVB-T2 Channels.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 01:32:59 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 24, 2017, 07:33:45 pmHardly anyone ever uses indoor aerials in the UK, which are terrible things. Most people have an external aerial mounted on the roof, which is aligned to the nearest local transmitter and is far superior.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 06:37:07 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 26, 2017, 01:32:59 pmSure, of course, but that's not the point. The point is that given the same antenna (however good or crappy), from the same transmitter tower (I know it's the case) the digital signal was vastly superior to the analogue one.Making that video was in fact the first and last time I'd ever plugged those old rabbit ears (or anything else) into the antenna socket of the TV. Otherwise I only ever use it to watch things from DVD or computer.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 06:56:30 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 26, 2017, 06:37:07 pmMy empiric experience tells me otherwise. I've been watching digital television on a not too great and probably too long cable. Apparently, it was right on the edge of what digital technology can deal with. This meant many channels were unwatchable, as they deteriorated into blocky patterns and intermittent sound. Some channels wouldn't come up altogether. Meanwhile, the analogue channels were perfectly watchable. The worst had a distinct fuzziness and visible noise, but most were actually fine. The quality isn't as good as the digital channels when they work, but they stayed watchable for much longer than any digital channel.Analogue television seems to be much more robust. Digital quality is somewhat better when things work, but analogue signals can be watched long after all the digital bits have fallen over. Considering both were on the very same cable on the same television, it was a fairly reasonable comparison.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 08:16:33 pm
content: That was the result where I am near St. Louis, Missouri; digital television works better but only within a smaller radius of the transmission tower. Government and industry estimates of usable transmission range were grossly optimistic.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 08:36:22 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on December 26, 2017, 08:16:33 pmI agree with that statement.I don't know about FM vs DAB. My limited experience of radio in my dad's car was of FM being superior: DAB would often drop out completely, whist FM would continue going. The reason why my experience is limited is because I don't drive myself and my dad dropped DAB in favour of FM, fairly soon after he got the car with a DAB receiver.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 08:41:40 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 26, 2017, 08:36:22 pmWhere I happen to do my daily driving DAB+ works fine in the car (DAB ceased to be broadcast a couple of months ago, but it also worked fine)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 10:59:01 pm
content: Quote from: Tepe on December 26, 2017, 08:41:40 pmI've never heard of DAB+.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 11:01:04 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 26, 2017, 10:59:01 pmhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_audio_broadcasting#DAB+

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 11:31:54 pm
content: DAB has some advantage over FM in that it is all in one data stream. all 20 channels with on screen text menu & efficient in its use of spectrum. the sound quality is set by the bitrate. only 128 kbit/s is on the low end of sound quality.note that some countries have implemented Eureka-147 digital with poor DAB sound quality.FM has less efficient use of spectrum & hiss between radio stations. however FM has more broadcast range over DAB .My experience with Australian DAB radio in a city, it has excellent sound quality however does have drop-outs in the broadcastas I have a portable DAB radio. antenna is the headphone cable.advantage of FM broadcasting for the prepper is in emergencies like war . low power FM broadcasting can be used by locals, or survivalists . if the state run media is pushing political miss-information or propaganda. DAB is less reliable & too complexat the transmitter end.

author: FlyingHacker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 12:21:43 am
content: In most US locations over the air (received by antenna) digital TV transmissions are of significantly higher quality (far less compressed) than cable or satellite. The cable and satellite providers compress the heck out of programming. So for thew major network stuff you are better off with an antenna than cable or satellite. Try it. Night and day difference here in St. Louis.For radio I much prefer analog. It doesn't drop out; it just fades or gets some static. I find this more pleasing when driving.I much prefer a technology where I can build my own receiver (yes, I have of course) without any licensing or DRM garbage.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 05:14:19 am
content: The DRM is ridiculous. It ought to be criminal for a private corporate monopoly to encrypt broadcast content on the publicly owned airwaves.Of course it means the system has had negligible market penetration beyond cars, I'm not sure what they were thinking shutting themselves out of the household market.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 12:45:46 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 27, 2017, 05:14:19 amIt's interesting you find DAB works better, than FM in the car and not with a stationary radio.In my experience, DAB works better at home, when stationary, because the position of the aerial can be adjusted for optimal reception, where it is better than FM. DAB in the car was far too unreliable.

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 02:37:35 pm
content: Quote from: FlyingHacker on December 27, 2017, 12:21:43 amIMO US DTV was horrid. where I was living at when the changeover in 2009 happened this is what I got.Indoor rabbit earsAni - CH 4,6,8,13,20,23,29,40,42,49,59,63DTV - 23 and if you hold breath just right 49.and that was the last time I ever watched any TV. hard to believe in a bit over a year it will be a decade.

author: shawty
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 04:18:13 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 24, 2017, 07:23:02 pmThey don't but given that it's a fairly tight knit cul-de-sac, and I'm not one for hiding the fact I'm an A1 geek (There's usually something built and whiring away in my garden, or some thing hanging out of my office window, and so on...) most of my neighbors figured it would be me, so directed the complaints at our estate management company about me anyway.The complaints wheren't to offcom or the police or anything like that... residents complain to our management company, then the management company "Has a word with the resident in question..."

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 05:23:21 pm
content: Ah so glad I live freehold now. Management companies were a nightmare for me once. I had a reputation with my neighbours. Anything went wrong, it was clearly down to the terrorist at #12.This is all down to one incident where I was playing around building rocket engines with potassium nitrate and sugar. I was cooking up some "rocket candy" in on the balcony and left it on the hot plate a bit too long and it caught fire and proceeded to fill the entire rear garden up with smoke to the point someone called the fire brigade (it had gone by the time they got there).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 06:30:53 pm
content: I'm that guy with the antennas in my neighborhood so if anything was happening the neighbors would almost certainly know where to look. I try to follow the rules when it comes to transmitting anything and haven't had any issues yet.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 07:09:40 pm
content: Same here, here where i live- not far from a major city, but down a bit in what used to be the fresnel zone, but which is now the dead zone, we went from getting all channels clear as a bell to getting just one nearby UHF channel clearly....Like so many other things, countries may be afraid of having legal issues in the WTO if they "Hold back" the exploitation of the full financial potential of the resource. Our new rules the Corporations want to be able to trade their licenses at the highest possible price.The rights to us have already been sold.You also bring up a good point about "hackers" being able to evade the cost of buying a new radio by "building their own" as long as the analog system remains in place.They also likely can record that music too off the air. Instead of buying it, using the "analog hole". Newer radios likely contain DRM to prevent it.---[/end sarcasm]Quote from: W2NAP on December 27, 2017, 02:37:35 pm

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 07:14:15 pm
content: Who records music off the air anymore? If one wishes to pirate music, any song imaginable is readily available via the internet. Any sort of DRM is obsolete before it is even developed because all the pirates simply bypass the entire system. I would argue that DRM encourages piracy by making the legitimate product less functional and less convenient than the pirated version.

author: shawty
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 12:45:43 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 27, 2017, 05:23:21 pmI'm with you there.We had massive issues when we first moved in, because the first management company where a right bunch of crooks, and if you had the correct amount of grease on your palm, you could get anything done that you wanted.Not so bad now however, but most of the residents are now renters, as opposed to owners, if I include myself and my Wife, we are only 1 of 5 original families left in a close of 47 houses. The rest have all been sold on to local housing agencies, and then out to council placed tenants from there on, and the wingers don't want to do a lot of work to get things the way they want them, so they just moan at the management co until someone gets told off....I just nod, say sorry, promise never to do it again, then just go straight back to what I was doing, I have a mortgage on my house, so I'm not going anywhere in a hurry, most of the moaners typically move out after a month or two...

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 01:10:13 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on December 27, 2017, 07:09:40 pmi was living 34 miles away from most of the TV transmitters (Indianapolis channels) analog was great picked up everything pretty good even WTTW ch4 which was 60 miles away (and i was using rab ears sitting on the tv north side of the house in which all the xmitters was south southwest outside of 2 WNDE/WIPB) digital all i got was WNDE which was about 17 miles away, WIPB sometimes was in but mostly out despite only being about 15 miles away. FCC really screwed the pooch on the DTV stuff. we was better off analog IMO

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 03:08:08 pm
content: Maybe you heart about the cool new thing?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_system

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 04:12:38 pm
content: Quote from: Lord of nothing on December 28, 2017, 03:08:08 pmUnfortunately half the world is still imperial and some countries, such as the UK, are mixed.Fortunately it's easy to look up the conversion factors, using a search engine.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 04:15:39 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 28, 2017, 04:12:38 pmHalf the world by what measure? GDP, population, area, ... ?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 04:39:25 pm
content: Actually we're metric in the UK. Everything is measured in metric units (by law). Only metric is taught in schools now. All products have to be sold in metric units only. Dual labelling is only tolerated for now. Our screws are M-numbered and our timber is measured in mm.The only real stalwart is road signs and the days are numbered for them too as they are consulting on dual signage followed by metric signs a number of years later. One of the motivations for "smart motorways" was to update the digital signage to support dual number systems. All the other signs can be overlaid. I know someone who is doing some of the consultation work for this.US needs to go metric.Wally map:Oh and digital TV is wonderful. Absolutely marvellous. Clarity, quality, the lot.

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 04:54:52 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 28, 2017, 04:39:25 pmI agree to that. they attempted in the mid 1970s but it was not enforced so it flopped.Quote from: bd139 on December 28, 2017, 04:39:25 pmI not agree, at least here. (UK/EU has a different DTV standard then US) big problem here is FCC only allowed TV stations to run the DTV at 1/5th the allowed analog erp. thus many stations that had good analog coverage had absolute shit dtv coverage thus lot of us who got by just fine with rabbit ears inside the house was shit out of luck.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 05:01:38 pm
content: Quote from: Tepe on December 28, 2017, 04:15:39 pmIt was a figure of speech.Quote from: bd139 on December 28, 2017, 04:39:25 pmI agree we need to go fully metric, but I think you underestimate how entrenched imperial usage is in the UK. People commonly weigh themselves in stone and pounds and the police always describe the height of suspects in feet and inches.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 05:13:46 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 28, 2017, 05:01:38 pmMaybe the sale of imperial bathroom scales should have been banned in 1970...

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 06:59:38 pm
content: Quote from: Tepe on December 28, 2017, 05:13:46 pmAnd many Europeans wonder why the UK is leaving the EU. . .I'm all for scrapping the antiquated imperial system, but I'm also an advocate of free choice.I also would like the UK to remain in the EU, but can see why the leave vote won.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 07:04:09 pm
content: If you ever buy wood you'll see how deeply entrenched it is. I'll have a 2440 mm length of 38x89 mm pine please.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 07:09:08 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 28, 2017, 06:59:38 pmRemoving adhesive bandages slowly since 1965. Somehow the most of the rest of the planet managed to do it quickly.(I love this strange idea that the UK is somehow not European)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 08:03:40 pm
content: Quote from: Tepe on December 28, 2017, 07:09:08 pm1) I don't know why the UK has been slower than the rest of the world to go metric. Being industrialised fairly early and strong trade with the US could be factors, but I suspect government policy and resistance to change are more important.2) The UK is an island and is culturally very different to mainland Europe. Over millennia many wars have been fought trying to keep the Europeans out. Have you ever visited the UK and spoken to people in a pub about their attitudes to Europe?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 08:37:52 pm
content: Arrogance and stupidity is why.Pubs are the closets the racists and imbeciles hang out, at least outside of the M25The U.K. has a large population of fucktards who on one hand celebrate winning world war 2 yet want to execute anyone darker than a sheet of A4 paper. Hmm...I actually nearly got bottled in a pub in Nottinghamshire because someone thought I was polish.Really, being isolated so far from the former eastern bloc is why we are like some of us are like we are. A lot of Europe was a war torn area right into the 1990s. Blood and loss is fresh on people’s minds. Here it’s on TV and guilted away with plastic flowers we wear once a year.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 09:09:13 pm
content: Quote from: W2NAP on December 28, 2017, 04:54:52 pmGeez.Yeah, if government forces you to run digital at 1/5 the power of analogue then yeah that's not going to do a lot for the range or effectiveness of the digital signal.So the problem is not digital being inherently worse than analogue (my video clearly show it's better), it's that your digital has been hobbled.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 09:23:08 pm
content: I agree that digital should be better. It should achieve a greater range than analogue, given the same bandwidth and quality. It doesn't surprise me they've made the power too low to get effective, reliable coverage.There is a concern about digital radios taking more power, than their analogue counterparts: is this really true? Of course demodulating an FM signal doesn't take as much power as decoding a digital data steam but could the power used at the receiver be offset by the transmitter not needing to be as powerful? Another possibility is digital radios might have other power saving technologies, such as class D amplifiers, although the ones I've looked at just use standard class AB amplifier ICs.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 09:24:20 pm
content: Power usage is moot. Both can be made to use very little power. Most of the paper is expended in driving the speaker or headphones. As you say, class D might win on efficiency. I’m considering class D for my transceiver to save power.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 10:31:27 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 28, 2017, 08:03:40 pmYour trade with the US is dwarfed by your trade with therestof Europe and in any case the imperial and US customary measurement systems have many impractical differences, so I too suspect it's resistance to change and plain old not invented here syndrome.Quote from: Hero999 on December 28, 2017, 08:03:40 pmYour island is parked 30 km off the coast of France.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 11:16:50 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 28, 2017, 09:24:20 pmThis is true for desktop/shelf/table radios:https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/206472/DRAP_Future_Energy_Report.pdfBut the small portable units used exclusively with headphones are still much higher consumption than the traditional analog FM units, typically 3-4x worse for most units and much worse than the power optimised FM receivers.You only need a few mW of power to get a useful volume with sensitive earphones at the extreme case, but depending on the number of listeners and their geographic spread radio stations can easily be using more power in broadcast than at the consumer end to drive the speakers. There are UK stations with just a few thousand listener-hours per quarter:http://www.rajar.co.uk/listening/quarterly_listening.phpThats averaging only a couple of listeners (radio power a few watts to 10's of watts each) compared to the transmitter (are they required to be on air constantly?)

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 04:26:57 am
content: Quote from: Tepe on December 28, 2017, 10:31:27 pmI bet Finland would love to have a 30 km wide moat between it and Russia!

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 07:39:12 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 29, 2017, 04:26:57 amStart digging

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 07:25:18 am
content: The whole metric thing has always been a bit baffling to me. I learned metric back in highschool science class and I'm relatively fluent in both metric and imperial measurements, occasionally I'll even mix and match. I'm not sure why rednecks in the US get so passionate about the "American" system which is really just the old British system. Canada is officially metric but I know a number of Canadians who use pounds to refer to a person's weight. When I was in England it seems like food used metric weight and volume units but the roads are still in miles and people are weighed in stones.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 08:27:48 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 30, 2017, 07:25:18 amYup, I still use pounds for my weight & feet for height.Everything else, except occasionally the indoor temperature, I'm all metric.(Funny, I'll cook and do science and outdoor weather in Celsius, but, my indoor thermostats are in Fahrenheit...)

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 12:00:53 pm
content: You can blame the pirateshttps://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/12/28/574044232/how-pirates-of-the-caribbean-hijacked-americas-metric-system

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 10:32:03 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 30, 2017, 07:25:18 amstones is just... odd

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 10:33:37 pm
content: Quote from: W2NAP on December 30, 2017, 10:32:03 pmI'm 15 stone. Or 23 stone. Or 246 stone. It depends on which stones you pick.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 10:40:13 pm
content: Quote from: W2NAP on December 30, 2017, 10:32:03 pmOne imperial stone is 14 pounds. I suppose people use stones for the same reason why they use feet, rather than just inches: to avoid big numbers.How would you react if someone told you they're 70 inches tall? That's how Brits feel when an American says they weigh 168 pounds.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 01:37:40 am
content: They're all just units, none are particularly more odd than others, I'm sure at some point in history someone came up with a standard reference stone just as someone came up with a standard foot, a standard pound, etc. The only real advantage (albeit a big advantage) of metric is the people who came up with it thought it all through and made unit conversion and orders of magnitude very straightforward. You can calculate in your head how many centimeters are in a meter or a kilometer or how many CC's are in 2 liters, now try to tell me how many inches are in 3 miles or how many teaspoons are in 4 gallons in your head.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 01:49:21 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 30, 2017, 10:40:13 pmAnd people still not very used to metric units often say things such as 4500 mm or 450 cm instead of 4.5 meters, for the length of a car for example, and that sounds weird.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 01:54:23 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on January 03, 2018, 01:49:21 amIts depressing how many people still struggle with a decimal point. That's why people are using lengths like 450cm, rather than 4.5m.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 02:08:07 am
content: IMHO "450cm" rolls off the tongue a bit easier than "4.5 meters" but someone could tell me either one and it would mean the same thing.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 02:22:25 am
content: Four and a half meters

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 02:23:47 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on January 03, 2018, 01:49:21 amI guess we're doing another metric versus imperial thread?It should be noted that 4,5 m and 4500 mm don't necessarily mean the same. 4,500 m and 4500 mm do. The difference is the accuracy of your measurement. That's why people generally frown upon a measurement being with many trailing zeroes if the accuracy isn't actually backed up by the measurement being made.I think many people here can relate. You can't take a measurement on your 3 1/2 digit multimeter and say it's 0,55600000 volt. You'll really need something like a 3458A to be able to say that.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 02:25:33 am
content: Part of the beauty of metric is that whether you say 4500mm, 450cm, 4.5 meters, 4 and a half meters, it's equally easy to interpret. Much more so than 4.5 yards, 13.5 feet, 162 inches. It really doesn't matter what order of magnitude one uses.

author: HumbleDeer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 03:11:22 am
content: I oddly enough, being a Metric native, use feet/inches for a person's height, and lbs/pounds for one's weight.On topic though: A life without FM radio would probably be.. exciting! Does this mean people can hire or get permission for FM frequencies if they want to use some small-range hobbyist communication devices?Cheers,Anna

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 03:22:22 am
content: Quote from: HumbleDeer on January 03, 2018, 03:11:22 amYou can be sure they'll pack the bandwidth with something else.

author: HumbleDeer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 03:23:38 am
content: Enlighten me with your first thought to what that could be!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 03:30:41 am
content: Quote from: HumbleDeer on January 03, 2018, 03:23:38 amThe spectrum map I posted earlier provides a nice range of possible uses.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/bye-bye-fm/msg1376441/#msg1376441

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 03:45:08 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 30, 2017, 10:40:13 pmstone is just to me odd, its like a odd ball thing to say. inches,feet,meters,kg i can handle. i at least can somewhat convert in me head kg/lbs or m/f. at least for me if someone said they was 70inches tall id know they was around 5'7" to 5'9" or they tell me they are 100kg i know they are around 220lbs stone just tosses me off and i just go.. uh mmkay

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 03:47:01 am
content: Quote from: james_s on January 03, 2018, 02:25:33 amthus is why i do wish the USA would just go metric. it make things a lot easier imo. granted many would have to be converted kicking and screaming.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 03:55:49 am
content: Quote from: W2NAP on January 03, 2018, 03:47:01 amI think most American folks actually using these units every day in relevant ways would be fine with it, and some pubescent patriotic tossfuckers would kick and scream and kick up huge amounts of dust for no other reason than it being units that aren't "theirs" and their inability to read road signs any more. My guess is that this would be worst in the states that consistently try to show how independent they are by not doing what the government wants them to do.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 09:24:47 am
content: Can't you just build a big wall around Texas (instead of Mexico) and chuck them over it?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 12:26:43 pm
content: Quote from: W2NAP on January 03, 2018, 03:45:08 amIt's what you're used to I suppose, otherwise a stone is no more difficult to compute than a foot. Just remember a stone is 14 pounds or around 6.4kg.I can sympathise. I know how much a kilogramme and a pound are, yet I find it difficult when people tell me their weight in anything but stone. I have to stop and think for a bit. If I'm making a cake, I always measure the ingredients in grammes. Pounds and ounces are a pain, even though I know 1lb is exactly 454g and 1oz is about 28g.I'd like to get rid of all these silly imperial measurements and use metric, but no one else where I live will, so I can't.

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 03:19:30 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on January 03, 2018, 12:26:43 pmi guess stone would be a bit easier if it was on a base10. where 1 stone = 10 lbs thus 10 stone would be 100lbs, the 1:14 just makes a mess of easy conversion. 5's or 10's i could do in me head but 14 is just a bugger

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 04:21:01 pm
content: Quote from: W2NAP on January 03, 2018, 03:19:30 pmThe same could be said about feet an inches: make a foot 10 inches.The only good thing about 12 vs 14 is it can be evenly divided into: 2, 3, 4 & 6, rather than just 2 and 7.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 04:33:02 pm
content: We just need more fingers and we're good.

author: sony mavica
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 11:20:21 pm
content: i still from time to time listen to fm radio got a cheap Short Wave FM/AM Portable Radio off ebay and with the crappy antenna these things have and where im located i was shocked i could easily pick up Radio Australia used to listen to it from time to time sucks they stopped broadcasting it last yearwe have 2 or 3 digital radio stations here and i have had a really bad time picking them up always cutting out ect sometimes i can get it to work for a little while but if i move the radio it cuts out again never had this problem with analog fm radio also one of the stations i was listing too sounded worse then there fm station