Dangerous pseudo science - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Bobson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 06:18:01 am
content: Barefoot walking under power line will neutralize EMF and other BS.Dave, you should pay more attention to the projects which are dangerous to health. If you loose money you can gain experience. If you loose life, you gain nothing.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 01:41:50 pm
content: Quote from: Bobson on March 04, 2021, 06:18:01 amBut eventually give you Lyme disease.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 12:48:29 pm
content: I assume he just needs to trust the sensitivity of his tinfoil hat, no need for that multimeter rubbish.If his head starts to tingle, he is too close to a 150kV power line

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 01:54:15 pm
content: Long time ago I built the Elektor Teslameter for checking CRT monitors and other EMF sources. The TCO standard back then had a maximum limit of 250nT for CRT monitors, IIRC.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 05:17:36 pm
content: I have watched the video very quickly, fast forwarding a lot, just to get a quick idea of what the guy was on about.As far as I got it, he seems to be discovering one of the effects of "electrical earthing" and measuring potential differences without understanding what they mean.So is he suggesting to use earth mats inside his house? That could actually be dangerous indeed if the installation is not properly made and checked by a professional, especially if he's going to walk barefoot on this.As to the potential benefits of having our body electrically connected to earth, it's apparently one of those new-agy trends that I didn't know even existed until now:https://www.earthing.com/pages/what-is-earthing

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 05:35:02 pm
content: Albert Einstein: "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 09:58:24 pm
content: Quote from: Haenk on March 05, 2021, 12:48:29 pmIf it's only tingling I'd suggest he's perhaps not close enough.

author: fubgumfaw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 11:50:22 pm
content: I see a lot of condescending attitudes and dismissing what he says but no explanations.He does make several good points here.1. He can measure voltage across his body with a cheap DMM.2. Bare foot to the ground and that voltage disappears.3. He shows clear evidence that the power lines are inducing a voltage across his body. I've done this myself.4. There has been much dipping and dodging from the power companies and cell carriers about EMF and the effects it has on the body.5. Money does decide what is held as truth and what is pseudo science. People get off for crimes all the time because they have money!I'm not saying grounding the body has a positive effect or not. I honestly don't know despite reading about this some in the past.What you can't deny is that he demonstrated the voltage across his body induced onto it from the power lines or the AC in his house.THAT HAPPENED! What's the effect on the human body? Do you really know?

author: penfold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 12:02:16 am
content: Quote from: fubgumfaw on March 06, 2021, 11:50:22 pmSurely the conclusion should be that the voltage is across his shoes...

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 12:21:55 am
content: Quote from: madires on March 05, 2021, 05:35:02 pm02/05/20 - 07/03/21 Up: 501 down: 8QuoteSo many who believe it.I mean't Silicon Wizards post in relation to the audience's understanding of what he was doing.My mistake I quoted and thanked the wrong post by mistake.

author: fubgumfaw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 03:35:56 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on March 07, 2021, 12:21:55 amOK...challenge laid...HOW then do you explain what his DMM so clearly displayed? I've done this with a DMM myself and I already know that if you stand near power lines that you can measure a voltage on yourself and that if you ground yourself you can't. This is not disputable or a "maybe could be". It's fact. Go do it yourself. He's not presenting BS when he measures a voltage on himself. This IS a real thing!

author: fubgumfaw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 03:40:15 am
content: Quote from: penfold on March 07, 2021, 12:02:16 amOK...maybe...sure...HOW exactly?Also, you can get away for AC power without too much trouble. The middle of grassy field is good enough. And in the middle of that field you can do this same test again and the voltage you will measure inside rubber shoes will be significantly reduced. There is something here and you do get a voltage induced across your body from near proximity to AC power lines or wires in the walls.I have to laugh at the title for this thread. How is grounding yourself dangerous? So what it doesn't work to improve your health. Was it harmful in any way? "Dangerous" is the wrong word to use. How about "pointless pseudo science"?

author: penfold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 04:06:49 am
content: Quote from: fubgumfaw on March 07, 2021, 03:40:15 amThe electric field will still be present, but the minuscule current that first flowed through the DMM to produce such voltage is now being shorted to ground via his feetIs "EMF" worse than current to him?

author: fubgumfaw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 04:24:00 am
content: Quote from: penfold on March 07, 2021, 04:06:49 amI agree the current is quite low. Maybe a few milliamps? How harmful can that be?I also have to ask why cancer rates are higher now than ever before? Is cancer related to EMF? What about mental illnesses which are also higher now than ever before. We keep getting told by the power companies and cell carriers that their EMF is harmless. This is in their best interests to NOT tell you that there is possible harm in EMF. Also, anyone that presents a dissenting point of view is dismissed. I hardly call this situation a good way to present facts or study results! This isn't proof of EMF causing cancer or mental illness, just that I'm skeptical that there is no link. We are bathed in EMF all the time. Who doesn't have wifi or a cell phone or have AC power now days? I think there is something to the upward trend in cancer and mental illness and that it is possibly EMF related. Will grounding yourself help? No idea! I'd like to see studies on this!

author: penfold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 05:14:54 am
content: Quote from: fubgumfaw on March 07, 2021, 04:24:00 amProbably microamps if not lower, but the electric field is there, all he's done is render the meter incapable of measuring it (not that it was a particularly suitable instrument to begin with)The proliferation of electricity and wireless technology also coincided with advances in medical diagnostics and characterisation of mental disorders/illnesses so naturally there are more diagnosed cases now. But equally, society has changed over the same time frame and there are significantly more known and studied causes of cancer and mental illnesses which are not "EMF" related. I'm still not disputing the potential for its effects, but it would be improper to draw a conclusion where "EMF" is a significant cause of cancer and mental illnesses when the current scientific understanding of those conditions does not and there is such a huge amount of "sociological noise" in people's habits.It is also very much not in the interests of power companies and cell operators not to give their customers cancer, unless they're expecting them to continue paying their phone bill posthumously.

author: fubgumfaw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 07:51:06 am
content: Quote from: penfold on March 07, 2021, 05:14:54 amI'm not concluding that all the EMF we are bathed in is good or bad, just that I'd like to see independent studies that are not based in the agendas of the power and cell companies. As far as I know, they are the only ones doing them and I find that just a little suspicious.You are right, all that electrical advancement has come with many good things. I'm an avid EV builder. Without those advancements, I would still be riding around on gas engines! I've increased my EMF exposure significantly as a result too. Also, with all that great technology, we've been able to diagnose things much more readily. So maybe, it's not that cancer and mental illness have increased, but rather our ability to detect them has increased? Sure! That's quite possibly it...

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 08:28:51 am
content: Quote from: fubgumfaw on March 07, 2021, 07:51:06 amYou're on the edge of or possibly already on the downward slope towards paranoia and conspiracy theory, if you google for studies you'll find many independent, peer reviewed, accredited studies performed by people who have no connection to power and cell companies.The problem with doing that is you'll find any number of lunatics screeching loudly about how their auntie's friend's dog fell off the couch when the WiFi router rebooted or some such anecdotal bollocks so therefore all WiFi is eeebil and power lines must cause cancer because people who have electricity in their homes get cancer.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 10:31:12 am
content: Quick reason cancer rates are rising is a combination. Plastics and lead exposure from decades of TE lead in fuel, and improving world health standards, so that people now live much longer lives, so that the cancers that occur now actually do get to kill you, instead of you dying much younger from some other disease that is now curable, or controllable with modern health advances (washing hands and aseptic handling of food being probably the biggest step forward), now leads to people living long enough to die from slow growing cancers.Well known that most prostrate cancers in men over 80 are not treated, simply because in the vast majority of cases something else will kill you, long before the cancer gets to the point where it will, unless you get the rare fast growing types, which are treated, mostly by using pins made from gold plated Polonium inserted in the area, to destroy all cells there that are rapidly dividing.

author: fubgumfaw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 11:29:07 am
content: Quote from: CJay on March 07, 2021, 08:28:51 amI have to say that I'm not coming to the same conclusion as you have. You are acting as if conspiracies do not exist and yet we all know that they do happen.There is a good probability that you are male, since this is a tech forum and from personal experience, about 80% of tech people for whatever reason are male. Is that a paranoid conspiracy or am I just stating a real world observation?So then, here's a conspiracy for you! I conspire to have sex with the next hot woman I find myself in bed with! EEEEEK...OH the Paranoia! Hahaha!I have to wonder when healthy skepticism became a tainted thing. Slippery slope into paranoia and conspiracy theories? Really? How about skepticism?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 12:43:44 pm
content: Quote from: fubgumfaw on March 06, 2021, 11:50:22 pmIf you want to know read studies about the impact of power line EMF (also EF and MF) on humans, and stop fearmongering.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 12:55:14 pm
content: Quote from: fubgumfaw on March 07, 2021, 11:29:07 amNot on the edge, over the edge.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 04:09:53 pm
content: Quote from: fubgumfaw on March 06, 2021, 11:50:22 pmYou're right about points 1, 2 and 3. You are also entitled to be skeptical, as per points 4 and 5. Until the 1950s, smoking wasn't considered dangerous.However, the guy in the video doesn't seem to know what he's talking about. We use grounding at electronics workbenches, but that's to protect sensitive components against damaging electrostatic discharge, or even electrical induction as you saw in the video. In fact this even poses a risk to the operators. If they touch a live chassis for some reason they'll close the circuit between live and ground and be zapped. That's why in many cases a 1MΩ resistor is put in series with the wrist strap cord installation.In construction sites where you frequently find water and power tools together it is the exact opposite. Power tools are not grounded. They're double-insulated and the workers wear insulating boots. Those measures are intended to protect people from hazardous electrical shocks. No one cares about EMF there.Absent from his video is the use of a Faraday cage, which is effective to protect you from the meanest electric fields out there, as can be demonstrated by Dr. Megavolt.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 07:13:20 pm
content: Quote from: fubgumfaw on March 07, 2021, 03:35:56 amIt was not mean't for a challenge I think I made a mistake, I quoted and thanked the wrong post when it suppose to be the one up which is Silicon Wizard.Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 05, 2021, 05:17:36 pmIt wasn't "stupidity" that I was referring in that post but it was the understanding what he was doing in the Silicon Wizard's post above and me assuming that audience didn't understand too which some may have done. It is my fault, very embarassing I didn't double check my post.Sorry about that.I was told about how it can also excite flourascent tubes.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 06:52:09 am
content: Quote from: fubgumfaw on March 06, 2021, 11:50:22 pmOrdinaryatmospheric voltage potentialis about 100 V/m near the surface, but it varies quite a bit; near trees and plants it can be several kilovolts per meter. The currents involved tend to be small, on the order of two picoamperes per square meter in free air.So, we do know that biological systems on Earth deal with ("slowly") changing electric and magnetic fields. We know that some birds use the magnetic fields for navigation, and it looks like some insects like bumblebees and arachnids use these electric fields to detect nearby plants.The fact that the transmission lines use alternating currents at 50/60 Hz does affect the picture somewhat. Simple measurements show that the effects are very localized to a narrow zone beneath the transmission line (width similar to the height – or ground-line distance). Observations on plantlife along transmission lines hasn't shown any alarming cellular effects, nor does it seem to negatively affect transient insects. (For example, pollinators do not seem to be adversely affected.) This indicates that there does not seem to be any short term effects; that is, we haven't observed any negative short term effects.Very strong magnetic fields, however, do havehealth concerns, but involve magnetic fields much stronger than those associated with electric power transmission lines. This should not be a surprise, because natural magnetic fields are rather weak compared to natural electric fields.Many people do not realize that all life on Earth is subjected to all kinds of conditions, including quite a bit of ionizing radiation, including gamma rays (both from space, and from natural radioactive decay). Because biological systems evolve to fit the conditions, it is not at all certain thatremovingthose actually improves health. For example, there is quite a bit of evidence that because human immune systems have evolved to deal with parasites, the prevalence of allergies in Western countries is actually a result of lessened parasitic load especially in childhood. Because of this, some of those who suffer from life-threatening allergies have sought help from acquiring intestinal parasites; a very controversial topic. (We already know many illnesses that are relatively safe when had as a child, giving a lifelong immunity, but can be very dangerous as an adult.) This means that there definitely is some kind of "boundary" for each stressor beneath which exposure is "safe" and above "not safe", but that boundary varies and depends on other stressors, and thus far our only tool to characterise these is via statistics.But.. how do you do statistics when the numbers involved are on the same order as people being crushed (injured or died) by tipping vending machines? Or when you have a dozen or more variables affecting each other in a very nonlinear, almost chaotic, manner?Me, I'm much more worried about the fact that current academic papers' quality is dropping, if we use the fraction of withdrawn or later proven incorrect as a measure of quality. (It's not just a small fraction, but between 25% and 50% on many STEM fields, so is a serious concern.) On top of that, we have media whose best option to remain relevant is to rile people up, via scaremongering and simplification and misunderstandings and, well, clickbait. And this means that anyone doing the kind of statistical analysis I am referring to as necessary to determine what constitutes "dangerous" – keeping in mind that because we are an intrinsic part of the biome surrounding us,anychange, no matter how "obviously good" you might think it might be, is potentially dangerous; and "no change at all" possibly being even more dangerous (as we've observed that to lead to overspecialization, loss of adaptability, leading to species loss when the environment changes) – anyone doing that kind of statistical analysis has serious financial and career incentives to well, skew the results to get more publicity.

author: fubgumfaw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 07:10:27 am
content: Quote from: madires on March 07, 2021, 12:43:44 pmNo one...certainly NOT me as doing an fear mongering! You twist what I say into a phobia that doesn't exist!

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 07:11:57 am
content: All pseudo-science is dangerous, because it lowers the standards of what is considered rational and intelligent. Pseudo-science has been closely associated with history's worst regimes, for example.

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 07:59:03 am
content: Quote from: fubgumfaw on March 07, 2021, 04:24:00 amBecause we do not die from starvation now that we can get our teeth fixed!In the end, the way we grow, by cell division and copying of source code, is going to be bit-flip buggy, which means that if we live long enough cancer is going to get us all. Historically enough of us did not live long enough to notice this, but thanks to health care we now have a meaningful amount of humans dying (sic) to be able to bother about that, instead of trying to keep people off dysentery, malnutrition and violence.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 11:13:58 am
content: Quote from: fubgumfaw on March 06, 2021, 11:50:22 pmIn fact, I can deny it.He never measured the voltageacrosshis body (e.g.: one lead in his ear, one between his toes).Only the potential difference between his body and the ground (which of course went to zero when he grounded himself).I'm quite convinced both the absolute result and the change when grounding himself would have been much lower.I even suspect a possible higher measured voltage when grounded, as induced current would have the possibility to flow through ground.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 11:52:07 am
content: Quote from: fubgumfaw on March 07, 2021, 11:29:07 amTwo problems:-(1) You can't conspire with yourself.(2) If you are in bed with the lady, it is way past the time for conspiring, unless you are in fact, conspiringwith her.By the way, don't tell her you talk about conspiracies on the Internet, or she will think you're a weirdo!

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 01:03:44 pm
content: Quote from: newbrain on March 08, 2021, 11:13:58 amI think what he means by "voltage across his body" is really the voltage induced on his body relative to ground. He's only using the wrong terminology. But you're right to make that clear.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 01:44:16 pm
content: Since everyone talks only about induced voltage don't forget that the PUT (person under test) is also a plate of a capacitor.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 02:56:57 pm
content: Yeah, I'm not clicking on this video. If I do, the algorithm will suggest other BS like this, I dont want that.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 06:55:58 pm
content: Quote from: madires on March 08, 2021, 01:44:16 pmI may have been harsh saying that they didn't understand what they were measuring, but yes, that was basically it.The fact they can measure a smaller potential difference when connecting the system - their body - to a potential reference such as "earth" here, is a basic phenomenon. Also, their small "experiment" and misinterpretations of it may remind some of the famous Walter Lewin's experiment on Kirchhoff's laws...Now whether this may have any impact on health is another story. I don't think there is any proof of that. I will be humble though - we are indeed bathed in increasing electromagnetic "pollution". Would I sign if I had to engage my full responsibility claiming that it has absolutely NO long-term effect on health? I would not. I have humbly no clue. But I wouldn't promote any weird pseudo-protection, or publish any panic messages on the topic either.But as some people said here, walking barefoot on mats connected to "earth" can be a direct hazard. One thing you absolutely need to do is ensure there is a large enough impedance to the "earth" connection - in the order of several megohms - otherwise you could very well get electrocuted. As to walking barefoot close to high-voltage power lines, it's usually ok but could be a serious hazard if there is a fault in the installation. Oh, and that can also not be advisable when walking close to fields with electric fences.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 01:13:04 am
content: Being barefoot has real benefits related to foot problems such as Athlete's Foot or bunions. And taking your shoes off when going inside is not just a polite custom; it reduces lead pollution inside the building. But grounding of floors is definitely potentially dangerous, and at least highly unpleasant, given that many electric appliances have leakage currents over 1 mA. You can feel this very strongly and it is not a good feeling.The purported "benefits" of being "earthed" is mumbo-jumbo based on equivocation around the word "earth". The electrical potential of the earth has nothing to do with Earth Day, farming, ecology, or gnomes. Putting the body in contact with ground does not shield you from electromagnetic fields: to do that you would need a Faraday cage. For many frequencies of interest, the ground enhances reception of RF waves!