Why Tesla will succeed or fail - Tesla chargers in a country with no Teslas! ??  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 08:07:45 am
content: This is either why Tesla is going to succeed or fail. Here we are in Montenegro. Have test to see one Tesla or even one EV. Now here’s the crazy thing.... there are three Tesla charging stations. Why? Who are they for? I live in California where Tesla car owners wait in live to get a charge. Why were these stations not installed in California where there are a lot of Tesla cars?Is Tesla stupid? Or brilliant. Does Tesla think in the next couple of years Montenegrins who make about $300 a month will in a few years be buying Teslas?At this rate I’m wondering if Tesla has a charging station in Antarctica.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 08:14:12 am
content: It's a chicken and egg situation. You need the infrastructure even for people traveling. Of course there are no Teslas in a country with no chargers. Hence the need to establish the infrastructure first.Tesla will succeed or fail based on the rate they burn cash reserves. Like all businesses.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 08:25:10 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on June 27, 2019, 08:07:45 amYou should tweet this to Elon, a charging station on Mars might not be possible yet, but Antarctica is within range.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 08:33:59 am
content: I should have mentioned theses chargers are at Porto Montenegro in Tivat. This is where the billionaires dock their billion dollar “James Boned” mega-yachts. In boat’s garage where I’m sure they have a Tesla or four.

author: HB9EVI
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 10:35:38 am
content: a german transportation engineer recently commented it like that:"Tesla builds car for millionaires but not for the millions"referring to the ill situation in the electric automotive industry we have right now. Pretending we are protecting the environment by driving electric cars which actually:- burn electric power originated mostly from coal and gas power plants in many countries- still increase the demand for more space or better say more roads leading to more noise, more landloss and even more traffic than we already have now- still are an environmental, economic and political hazard due to exploitation of resources like lithium, rare earths and other materials in every corner of the world, blowing money in every african dictators ass or destroying the landscape with above-ground mines 3000ft deep and toxic sewer lakes in the surrounding.it's all just a phony to calm your conscience and not having to change our destructive way of living....

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 11:16:15 am
content: Superchargers for the three rich weirdos that rule there. Nothing new to see here, move along folks.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 11:46:39 am
content: These are not superchargers. They are destination chargers and they only requiere 240V 50A circuit. Usually they are installed at home in the garage or in the parking lot of supermarkets and hotels to attract EV drivers.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 11:54:39 am
content: Not really rich weirdo's. Over here Tesla's are affordable by high level management already.The only exception is Norway, there everyone's mom drives one.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 11:56:06 am
content: DestinationRegular chargers put in by some hotel. Anyone can do that.Not on the official map.https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&search=North%20America&bounds=46.58956096529951%2C26.494192044677902%2C38.71350565898762%2C5.461965213957001&filters=supercharger%2Cdestination%20charger&zoom=7as of the 'why' ? ROADTRIP ! the belgian Tesla owners club does a yearly roadtrip to Croatia. So Montenegro is withing easy reach.

author: john61ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 12:59:29 pm
content: Yes, chargers need to be wherever EV owners will want to go.Whether the locals own any is not relevant.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:13:04 pm
content: Quote from: HB9EVI on June 27, 2019, 10:35:38 amGermans are selectively environmentally friendly. They are shutting down there nuclear power plants in favor of burning more coal and buying nuclear power from France.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:15:30 pm
content: LOL. That's not the "germans", that's "the politicians" !!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:29:01 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on June 27, 2019, 01:13:04 pmNote that they are also exporting power to France due to absurd european directives. Extra power that we wouldn't need if we weren't exporting power to Germany, or less of it. Fun stuff.And yes, that's the politicians, not the Germans. In theory, that should be close enough in a democracy.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:35:00 pm
content: Quote from: john61ct on June 27, 2019, 12:59:29 pmNot true. One can bring an EV charger with them with their car.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:37:22 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on June 27, 2019, 01:15:30 pmAren’t German the ones who are thought to be environmentally friendly? It was the people of Germany who encouraged the politicians to shutter the nuclear power plants.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:40:16 pm
content: Quote from: john61ct on June 27, 2019, 12:59:29 pmIn contrast to petrol station that needs ADR permits, lots of digging, safety checks and all the hassle around it.If you own parking spots you can request a higher capacity grid connection for your building and buy and install the charger sockets.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:41:33 pm
content: And many do. A good diesel generator in the trunk works wonders.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:46:07 pm
content: I think he means various socket adapters, schuko/cee-form, instead of a portable generator.Formula E uses the generators.(severely over-sized and also putting loads of their power into loadbanks due to harmonics)

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:52:47 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on June 27, 2019, 01:37:22 pmI think it was Miss Merkel in another one of those days, you know. After fukushima, and because fukushima, mostly idiocy on her part. But germans aren't idiots, not by a long shot. She also opened the doors of europe to africa.

author: john61ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 02:26:14 pm
content: Yes good to see even politicians doing the right thing, we need a lot more people of conscience getting active stepping up for leadership roles, even if they get little personal reward for doing so.Even when threatened with violence like Walter Lübcke, Henriette Reker, Andreas Hollstein, and thousands more across Europe.Right-wing extremism - let's just call them fascists and white supremicists or even Nazis when the shoe fits - has really been accelerating, but we all can do our part in trying to reverse such horrific trends.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 03:17:19 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on June 27, 2019, 01:52:47 pmThey can be stupid with some things, and brilliant with others. How many people died as a result of Fukushima? Zero. And Chernobyl? Less than 100? In 70 years of nuclear power less people have died then most coal accidents. And more people die every year from solar and wind accidents (falling) then from 70 years of nuclear power.Now those facts are illogical to Germans.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 03:24:27 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on June 27, 2019, 01:35:00 pmBut only to charge at whatever rate the local AC outlet can provide without catching fire - for modern EVs this could easily be over 24 hours for full charge.And only if there is an AC outlet within range.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 03:30:15 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 27, 2019, 03:24:27 pmCorrect - But point being the charging infrastructure does not have to come before the EV does. All one needed to charge an EV is an outlet. Might need an extension cord to get to the outlet. But the outlet needs to come before the EV. The charging station can come later.

author: john61ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 04:00:29 pm
content: Someone on a long road trip can't be expected to "ask around" looking for people willing to let them plug in.The charging infrastructure must be built out wherever EV owners might want to drive.Which is a much larger area than just where EV owners actually **live**.How is that not obvious?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 04:14:26 pm
content: Quote from: john61ct on June 27, 2019, 04:00:29 pmBecause I have taken road trips in my EV and brought along a charger. When I stop for the night or reach my destination there is no EV charging infrastructure..... But there is a plug. All I have to do is plug in. EV charging infrastructure would be nice, but its not required to charge EVs.

author: john61ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 04:21:09 pm
content: No but as per the title, it is a requirement for the companies' success, more generally for the purchase of EV cars to become more mainstream, get past the IMO critical point of 20-30% worldwide market share.

author: john61ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 04:25:54 pm
content: To me, a long road trip may involve refueling several times before stopping to sleep, often staying on the highway.If that involves more time than it takes to get a cuppa, or a light meal at most, then most would say stick to dino juice.I think addressing the question asked is important, of course exceptional use cases can be given as counter-examples but most people will not choose EV until they are confident they won't ever be inconvenienced.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 04:35:49 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 27, 2019, 03:24:27 pmEV charger energy consumption is going to become a huge issue. I noticed this story on the local news last night - Guildford has introduced a fleet of 9 electric buses for it's park and ride service. Fine during the day, but when they come to charge them at night, they have to use a half - shipping container sized Tesla power bank ('trickle charged' during the day) to supply the power without taking the local grid down.Whatever happened to all that surplus cheap electricity at night?https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-48764903/guildford-s-buses-go-electric

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 04:38:17 pm
content: Quote from: john61ct on June 27, 2019, 04:25:54 pmAll about planning.But seriously. How many Teslas need to be charged in Montenegro? How would a Tesla even get to Montenegro to get charged? So why are there three chargers?I’m not so sure a Tesla could be driven on the roads to or in Montenegro where the charging station is located. Just seem as crazy as a Tesla charging station in Antarctica or on Mars

author: john61ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 04:43:02 pm
content: What you think a Tesla is too fragile, like it's a Lambo or something?Or your travel instincts lack a lot of imagination.I have traveled many thousands of km by car within a casual 1-week holiday, including less-developed countries in Africa and Asia.And having to plan in advance absolutely kills the joy of such trips.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 05:07:10 pm
content: Do you have a Tesla? And drove to Africa with it?

author: john61ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 05:32:42 pm
content: The logic is self-evident, nothing specific to experience, nor any one location nor company.My point is that the buildout of the charging network will need to be there long before more than a handful of EVs are sold.Well worth the investment of such a well-funded company.And do you know just how many hundreds of billionaires now hold Montenegrin citizenship?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 05:57:50 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on June 27, 2019, 04:38:17 pmCroatia has some of the best roads in europe for roadtripping. newly built , clean and spectacular sights. All the way to Dubrovnik.Dubrovnik has a supercharger.Dubrovnik to Tivat is 70Km. Peanuts for a Tesla.Like i said the Belgian Tesla Owners Club did a run Brussels to Dubrovnik last year or the year before.oh, and there's this too :https://www.croatiaweek.com/nikola-tesla-electric-car-rally-croatia-set-to-start/Many europeans go to Croatia on vacation ( by car )- it's cheap- it's clean- it's safe- nice coast area's with warm water and nice climate in summer.So : smart move from who ever put those three chargers there. It will attract tourists.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 06:09:53 pm
content: and for the curious :https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4318717,18.6932308,3a,75y,27.11h,84.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAF1QipNQJPCiJ1YuDRgmMq7NbdmSUM5vNq-JzAJ0OwO9!2e10!7i9472!8i4736that's the spot on google maps. just rotate the camera 180 degrees ...And then explore that harbour. There's plenty ultra luxury stores there.in short : Don't diss montenegro.That hotel is the Regent Port MonteNegro. 500$ a night ... 5 star

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 06:24:55 pm
content: A high priced hotel is still not going to see enough Teslas to make this profitable ... not that many diehards who want the annoyance of supercharger hopping.I'm going to make a wild guess and say they tapped into one of the many EU funds.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 06:42:44 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on June 27, 2019, 03:17:19 pmOr how about "1 from radiation, 2202 from evacuation"?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disaster_casualtiesGranted, the evacuation-related death count apparently does not distinguish between evacuations due to radiation vs. those due to the tsunami. But your "zero" claim certainly doesn't cut it.Regards from illogical Germany...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 07:25:03 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 27, 2019, 06:09:53 pmWhere? Not even Gucci or Louis Vuiton and these are the Primark equivalents for the rich.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 09:31:02 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on June 27, 2019, 03:17:19 pmThe difference is that for solar and wind, almost all of the risk is to workers installing and maintaining such equipment, not those living nearby. DIY solar is pretty popular (DIY wind as well until solar became cheap enough to almost always be the better investment) so it's pretty common to find hobbyists willing to take the risk.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 09:55:26 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 27, 2019, 06:42:44 pmLooks like I stand corrected, there was one death from ionizing-radiation in Fukushima.Germans can be brilliant, but sometimes it’s difficult to understand you “guys”.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 09:57:06 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on June 27, 2019, 09:31:02 pmThe death stats for solar and wind are not DIY, it’s for professionals.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 12:24:23 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on June 27, 2019, 09:57:06 pmBut the point remains that solar and wind are very safe for those living nearby. The ones most at risk are the ones who choose to put themselves at risk.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 05:40:47 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on June 28, 2019, 12:24:23 amYes but look at how little energy solar and wind produces compared to nuclear and coal. Coal mining and the residue from burning coal and coal mining have are far more destructive than nuclear.What do we do with the 600 years of nuclear fuel we have right now?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 05:47:41 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on June 28, 2019, 05:40:47 amConvert them into 6000 years of nuclear waste, you mean?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 05:52:46 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 28, 2019, 05:47:41 amIsn’t 6,000 years of nuclear waste better than storing the nuclear fuel wed could be using for 60,000 years?What. Do. You think. We. Should do with that 600 600 year supply of nuclear fuel we currently have? I guess we could turn it back into nuclear bombs. Can you think of another use for it?

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 06:04:20 am
content: It's not about absolute dangers. People don't think about these things objectively. People think with emotion.Coal is the slowest hazardous method of energy production available. It takes years for damage to occur that you won't even notice it happening.Wind and Solar are the safest, since if you never get closeyoucannot be harmed.Also note that nuclear, solar or wind require something to go bad for danger, where coal is dangerous for everyone by design.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 06:05:23 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on June 28, 2019, 05:52:46 amWe can simply leave that stuff in the ground. Maybe humanity will come up with a better use for it in the future. You do realize that natural Uranium has very long half-life (which is why it is still around), right? The nuclear waste from reactors is much more problematic to deal with than natural Uranium.What. Happened. To. Your. Punctuation there, btw?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 06:44:15 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 28, 2019, 06:05:23 amI’m traveling and on a small screen/keyboard.All of the nuclear fuel we have is man made, it’s Plutonium, not Uranium. So here we have a 600 year supply of fuel and you want to use unreliable solar and wind. Where do you want to plant the stuff we have in the ground? Your backyard?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 07:03:46 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on June 28, 2019, 06:44:15 amUnless I am very mistaken, nuclear power plants use enrichedUraniumfor fuel.Plutoniumis produced as a waste product, and is used in nuclear bombs.Anyway, I think we have moved far enough off-topic in this thread, and are not getting anywhere. You stick with your preferences for power generation, I'll stick with mine. We each happen to live in the "right" countries for our preferences, so all is well.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 07:19:38 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 28, 2019, 07:03:46 amUranium or plutonium can be used. “Plutonium is also used as a fuel in nuclear power plants and in making nuclear weapons ("atomic bombs"). The isotope used for this purpose is plutonium-239.”Getting back on topic and back to he photo. Tesla only EV chargers in Montenegro seemed silly when I first saw them. One maybe, but 3 in a country with virtually no EVs.Trying to understand if they are for the billionaires? Who have Teslas on their yachts? Or are there enough people in Croatia with Tesla’s who would make a road-trip to Montenegro in there Tesla?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 08:31:49 am
content: As it was said, it is not a supa-dupa charger. It costs something like 2000 EUR to set it up. I've been to hotels, where the chairs were more expensive than this, are you going to open a thread for that also?And yes, Croatia is awesome. I've spent there several vacations, on many we just drove, cause I was living some 6 hours away. In 6 hours, some people from Switzerland or Germany can easily go there. Crossing 4 borders.(well, probably not with a Tesla, cause stopping for a charge, but you get the idea)

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 09:55:01 am
content: Croatia has plenty of coast, mountains or whatever, so unless people have family in Montenegro, they have little incentive to go there, despite sharing a border. I personally have never been there.As for EVs in Croatia, as of February 1st of this year, there were 459 EV and 3 717 hybrids registered, an increase by 182 and 1085 respectively from the year before.Source:https://lider.media/aktualno/tvrtke-i-trzista/poslovna-scena/cvh-dosad-je-u-rh-registrirano-459-elektricnih-i-3-717-hibridnih-vozila/For comparison, in 2018, there was total of 1 666 413 registered cars.https://www.dzs.hr/Hrv_Eng/publication/2019/05-01-04_01_2019.htm

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 10:30:32 am
content: Those look like AC chargers, which should be able to charge other EVs, depending on the connectors provided and billing/authentication used.They also seem to have a 16 or 32A CEEform socket on the side, which could be used with a portable EVSE ( charger), again if authentication/billing allows.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 01:35:29 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 28, 2019, 08:31:49 amPicture is not from Croatia, it’s Montenegro. Are you saying you own a Tesla and have driven it to Montenegro?

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 03:09:15 pm
content: The diesel van tows a gasoline generator to charge the EV. This is the future.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 03:25:18 pm
content: How long does the gas generator spend charging the car?

author: cur8xgo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 04:09:14 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on June 28, 2019, 03:09:15 pmThis is what engineering based on feelings looks like

author: john61ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 05:10:18 pm
content: Yes will be part of AAA type services.At least 10x more expensive per kWh.Some setups can get you 100miles more range in well under an hour.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 05:38:41 pm
content: Quote from: john61ct on June 28, 2019, 05:10:18 pmThat’s not bad. Takes a bit longer than getting a gallon of gas, but then you are getting about 2 to 3 times the miles.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 05:48:57 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on June 28, 2019, 01:35:29 pmI dont own a tesla, but I went to Montenegro with a car about 15 years ago.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 06:02:24 pm
content: If you haven’t been here in 15 years guess I’m not understanding how you can comment on current conditions.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 06:42:59 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on June 28, 2019, 06:02:24 pmI reckon the presence of coast and mountains in Croatia and Montenegro has not changed all that much in the past 15 years.I fail to see the point of the thread. You have already established that the chargers are installed at a port, which is a tourist destination. Others have pointed out that the chargers are not that big an investment. What is the remaining question?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 06:59:15 pm
content: The water and mountains probably have not changed. What has changed is the infrastructure and all of the construction that’s going on.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 08:04:23 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 28, 2019, 06:42:59 pmAre the chargers connected? IOW: do they actually work or just sit there to look nice?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2019, 05:47:12 am
content: I am sure they are connected and work. They are right next to 100 million-dollar mega-yacht row in Porto Montenegro. The only reason I can see for having changers at the resort is for the billionaires who dock their mega-yachts there and have Teslas on their boats.You have to had it to Tesla..... Who would think in a country were there aren’t any Teslas there would be no one, but three charging stations.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2019, 01:40:32 pm
content: Again : Anyone can buy these charger modules, and install them or have them installed by an electrician. These are for private installs.So what if some smart hotel owner installs a few. If someone with a compatible car is around , he'll hook up there and no doubt consume something in the hotel.Many times when i go for a charge i walk in to a starbucks or other thing nearby.There's a reason shopping centers are all too eager to get superchargers. Cause it attracts potential customers.A charger i frequent has a BJ's brewhouse / Panera / Wingstop nearby. At busy time there's at least 10 people in there having a drink or a plate of food while waiting to charge. They cycle hundreds of people in a matter of 2 to 3 hours around 6PM. Businesses are very happy.Same with destination chargers. If i go 'off the beaten path' i look first for a hotel that has one. They get my business. Many places now have or are installing such chargers on their own dime.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2019, 03:00:47 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 29, 2019, 01:40:32 pmYou do realize we are talking about Montenegro. I don’t think there is even one Tesla in the country. My question is how someone with a Tesla would even be ale to get to Montenegro to get the car to Montenegro to use the chargers? Okay so maybe a 5 star hotel installs a charger for appearances... but three?I wonder when the last time one was used?

author: john61ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2019, 12:36:37 am
content: OMG just thick.Why ask "why?" if you pay no attention to the dozens of valid answers?You even answered your own question, in several different ways.

author: john61ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2019, 12:45:04 am
content: Another spot nearby, less restricted, at "Chedi" Luštica Bay.So close to Dubrovnik airport!Welcome to 2019

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2019, 09:20:12 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on June 29, 2019, 03:00:47 pmwell ,easy, from almost any point in europe you can drive all the way to Dubrovnik using the supercharger network.From dubrovnik it is only 70Km to that harbor. Peanuts. Teslas can do that on one wheel. Fill er up in dubrovnik and even the smallest battery can get you there and back to dubrovnik.https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&search=North%20America&bounds=53.37505547522021%2C32.083033546767524%2C38.59229592491776%2C-9.981420114674279&filters=supercharger&zoom=6the red balloons are superchargers, the grey ones are coming soon.you can go from the far west in Lison, portugal , or the far north in Storslett , norway , or the far south Calabria , Italy or the far east Pyhtaa, finland or Katovice, PolandJust drive towards Zagreb or Senj in Croatia , then follow the coast line all the way to Vrgorac in Croatia. Charge completely , thunder on to Dubrovnik , hook up to one of the destination charger there to top it off , spend the night , then next day : on to Montenegro.It's not that hard to do.The suprcharger network is sufficiently built out that you can cover all of europe without problems. And the gaps are filled with plenty of destination chargers.If you really want to find a far-flung place : Las Palmas in Gran canaria. or Lhasa in south china. you gotta wonder how they get there ... O

author: john61ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2019, 09:31:01 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 30, 2019, 09:20:12 pmWhich of course is the whole point.Lot easier to sell the vehicle if you are secure knowing even the places you've never imagined driving to will be able to accommodate you if you decide to do so.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2019, 10:03:23 pm
content: I don't see any charging stations on the Tesla Map.https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&search=North%20America&bounds=45.140743002568385%2C23.367769540406243%2C40.029506931673886%2C8.650972814417855&filters=supercharger%2Cdestination%20charger&zoom=7There are some on the coast nearby in Bosnia. But not superchargers.Andy

author: john61ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2019, 10:07:38 pm
content: may take more time being an official company listthe one I showed is crowdsourced so kept more up to date but unofficial, bad data could get in

author: Decapitator
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 01:59:07 am
content: Elon Musk is a marketing genius. Even if his company hasn't sold a single car in the surrounding area, the advertising value alone of having not just one, but three charging stations with his company's name on them in that location far exceeds their cost of installation. He knows where his customers play.I can think of a country with about 4% of the world's population that made a similar statement over 50 years ago in a place that gets a lot less tourist traffic. They left a flag and a golf ball. The amenities of that location 240,000 miles away are rather basic and the air isn't fit to breathe. There are however, 3 EVs there provided by the same nation a few years later if you need to get around. No charging stations though. Those cars don't have rechargeable batteries.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 02:19:11 am
content: Last Friday we drove from our house, about 10 miles South of Saint Augustine FL, to Key West--370 miles--in my 2012 Infiniti M37 (about 24 mpg mostly on I-95 @ 70 to 80 mph). Still had just a bit under 1/4 tank of gas--enough to allow us to putt around the key all we wanted on Saturday and Sunday.Monday morning we had our choice of 5 or 6 nearby "recharging stations"; recharged" in less than 5 minutes and drove back.Until an electric car can do that I am not interested...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 02:21:36 am
content: Quote from: cliffyk on July 17, 2020, 02:19:11 amCongrats, you manage to do it by using twice as much fuel as everyone else, and then brag about how good it is. And you do this every day? No? Then you don't need a car capable of it every day.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 02:32:32 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 17, 2020, 02:21:36 amThank you, that's the sort of perk working nearly 60 years, living frugally, saving, and retiring comfortably gets you--i drove Corollas and Civics for 40 years and worried over fuel costs while putting three kids through college...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 02:36:56 am
content: Quote from: cliffyk on July 17, 2020, 02:32:32 amIt's not about fuel costs. At least not the sort you're focused on.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 02:43:12 am
content: Does anyone have any idea what the cost is for electricity in Montenegro, Croatia or Bosnia and Herzegovina? Cost for petrol/benzine/gas is much higher compared to the states. Wouldn't electric verticals be far more cost effective to power in those countries?

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 03:22:37 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 17, 2020, 02:36:56 amIn 2019 62.7% of US electrical production was from fossil fuels--mostly natural gas at 38.4%, with coal next at 23.5%, petroleum (liquid and coke) just 0.5%--"renewables" provided 17.5% with wind (7.3%) and hydro-power (6.6%) being the two predominate sources; solar is nearly insignificant at 1.8%. (source:U.S. Energy Information Administration)Whether we like it or not, at the current state of our technology fossil fuels are the best option; and with electric cars transmission, conversion (AC-->DC), battery charging, storage, and final conversion to mechanical power losses make them at best a zero-gain option, especially as internal combustion engine efficiency continues to improve dramatically.In 1996 the GM EV1 was often referred to as the "first coal powered vehicle"; things have not changed that much since then...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 03:28:56 am
content: Quote from: cliffyk on July 17, 2020, 03:22:37 amAnd the point sails on by yet again in favour of an argument supporting your privilege.That's okay. You carry on guzzling. You won't have to deal with the consequences.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 03:47:26 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 17, 2020, 03:28:56 amWhat "privilege" would that be? The privilege to come from a blue collar working class family (my father walked 8 miles to and from work every day, we did not "two nickles" and have a car until 1958, no phone 'til '64) who taught me the value of work; "privileging" me to work my ass off doing hot roofing every non-school moment so as to earn a Master's degree from a prestigious school (my parents helped as they could of course).Or the 60+ years of "privilege" working and paying taxes to support the "Great Society" debacle after that?I am confused, please explain?For man to believe we can change the course of this planet's evolution is the ultimate arrogance...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 03:56:08 am
content: Quote from: cliffyk on July 17, 2020, 03:47:26 amThe privilege to drive an inefficient vehicle when more efficient options are available and to reject alternatives because they offer a minor inconvenience to your leisure activities.QuoteAh, the "we're too insignificant to matter" viewpoint. Okay. Not really much point saying more.

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 04:12:36 am
content: Quote from: cliffyk on July 17, 2020, 03:22:37 amEven ifallelectric energy generation was coming from fossil fuels (it's obviously not), EVs are still more efficient than ICE vehicles, with a massive improvement in overall emissions.It's sad that bullshit stands in the way of a better world, but you do you.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 04:55:45 am
content: Quote from: uer166 on July 17, 2020, 04:12:36 amI love it, when all else fails go for a personal attack--classy.In any event seriously examine at any legitimate "well to wheels" study and you will see the superior "efficiency" of EVs is just not so. Too many conversion losses, it is not as bad as hydrogen but close...

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 05:00:17 am
content: Quote from: cliffyk on July 17, 2020, 04:55:45 amHow do you figure? I have an EV and am saving a bundle not having to buy gas.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 05:02:13 am
content: Quote from: john61ct on June 27, 2019, 04:00:29 pmWhen I was a kid my parents had a Diesel car, this probably doesn't sound unusual to those in many parts of the world but in the USA at that time Diesel was almost exclusively used by large trucks, there were very few cars in the late 70s-early 80s. It was easy enough to find truck stops in most areas and by the 80s more towns started having Diesel available at the regular gas stations but it did take some special planning at times.I'm not quite sold on the EVs for distance driving thing, maybe it'll pay off eventually but for now there's still a huge market for commuter and town cars. All the EV owners I know are multiple car households, if they need to take a longer trip they take the ICE car, the EV is the daily commuter and for driving around town, which is the vast majority of the driving they do.As for the environmental stuff, most of them talk about the environmental benefits but one of my friends is a lot further to the right than I am and doesn't seem to care about that at all. He got the EV because with 8c/kWh electricity we have here it's dirt cheap to run, it never needs oil changes, and he hates having to go get gas.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 05:26:52 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 17, 2020, 05:02:13 amYeah, "road taxes" have not yet caught up with EVs. But never fear if EVs do become de rigueur you can bet they'll "fix" that...

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 05:29:32 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 17, 2020, 05:02:13 amjames_s I was like you when it came to EVs. Range, charging stations, how do you make long trips. It's a fad, they are not reliable. Probably all of the same thoughts you have. Then my wife made me drive one. WOW! It was a lot of fun to drive. She wanted to buy. I wasn't sold so we leased one for three years. That way after 3 years we could walk away with minimal loss. As much as I wanted to hate the car and point out all of it's shortcomings and I tried hard I could not find one. The car was fun to drive. When it came time to run an errand I found myself driving the EV instead of the 3 other ICE cars we own. After 2 years we sold our ICE cars. I WILL NEVER BUY AN ICE CAR AGAIN. Yes, EV's are that good.We are now on our second EV. Purchased this one. No complaints. It's wonderful. No stopping at gas stations, no oil changes and the cost to power the thing is a fraction of what we would be paying for gas. (And the best part, some businesses and places of work offer free charging.) So there are times I get a "free" charge. When was the last time you were given a free tank of gas?My good friend was looking to buy an ICE car six months ago. He lives in Pennsylvania so has to deal with the cold and ice in the winter. I told him to take a look at EVs. He looked at me like I was crazy. Giving me all of the same excuses I gave to me wife. I finally told him to stop arguing with me and give an EV a test drive. He loved it. He's lived through a Pennsylvania winter and didn't have one problem. He loves his EV car and like me, said he will NEVER buy an ICE vehicle EVER again.Granted these are just a few data points, but I think if you ask other drivers or EV cars you will find I think the number is 94% will NEVER buy an ICE vehicle again. EV's are not perfect for 100% of the people. But for most, they sure are.Have you driven an EV? Doesn't have to be a Tesla either. Just any EV?One last data point. The President of Ford announced Ford would be discontinuing production on all of the passenger cars except the Mustang and trucks. Don't you think there's a reason the largest car company is doing this. And I don't think it's to go bankrupt.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 05:35:40 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on July 17, 2020, 05:00:17 amAren't you bothered by not paying your "fair share" of road use taxes--42¢/ gallon here in Florida...

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 05:45:28 am
content: Quote from: cliffyk on July 17, 2020, 05:35:40 amPaying "fair share" of taxes is UN-American. This country was founded on stealing land from the natives, owning people, and NOT paying ones fair share of the taxes. This is what made America GREAT! I'm a proud law abiding American. And while there's not land to be stolen from the natives, and owning people is now illegal, I can still be proud not paying my fair share of the taxes. But thank you for paying more then you should to cover me and all of the other EV owners. And thank you for that $12,500 tax credit and state rebate for purchasing an EV car. And let's not forget the 30% or nearly $10,000 tax credit I received from hard working people like you for the solar panels on my roof. This is what makes America GREAT!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 06:16:17 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on July 17, 2020, 05:29:32 amYes, I've driven the Bolt, a Nissan Leaf, a Kia Soul EV several times and quite a few years ago I drove a Meyers NMG once. The NMG was not great but that was 15 years ago and times were different. The newer EVs were nice, felt pretty much like driving any other car except loads of low end torque and very smooth. You don't have to sell me on them, I'm already a fan, if I were still commuting by car I'd seriously consider getting one but as things stand I absolutely love my classic Volvo turbo wagon and I just don't drive much. I just filled my tank the other day for the first time since early March and that included a ~100 mile each way trip to our cabin. Right now I work from home full time and when I was going to the office I always rode the bus so that leaves cabin trips which are too long for affordable EVs and errands which I just do too little of. I need the cargo space of the wagon and I loathe crossovers and SUVs. EVs are just not a good fit for me in my current circumstances but there is still a vast as of yet untapped market. There are still millions and millions of people for whom they are a perfect fit, people who live in the suburbs and commute a modest distance to work. It's no surprise their numbers are exploding, they don't have to replace 100% of the ICE vehicles.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 06:52:43 am
content: Please keep going cliffyk and DougSpindler.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 12:06:58 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on July 17, 2020, 05:00:17 amPart of the bundle you save on electricity is you don't pay a fuel tax on electricity yet.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 03:45:17 pm
content: Quote from: ahbushnell on July 17, 2020, 12:06:58 pmahbushnellWhile EV owners might not be paying fuel taxes we are paying in another way. I live in California and am a PG&E customer. We have the highest electricity rates in the country if not the world. Our high rates pay those PG&E executives millions in bonuses after 1 explosion and 2 causing 2 major fires. We lost towns, schools, business and hospitals because PG&E executives skimped on maintenance and favoring bonuses for executives.Netflix and PBS both made videos about the fire that wiped out Paradise, California. If you are a Netflix subscriber look of the film, "Fire in Paradise".I WOULD HIGHLY RECOMMEND WATCHING THIS VIDEO.Here's the trailer -PBS/Frontline also made a video, (by the same name) "Fire in Paradise"HIGHLY RECOMMEND WATCHING THIS VIDEO AS WELL.So while we are not paying fuel taxes we are paying in many ways. Do you have any idea what we pay for electricity in California? Before I tell you, let me me ask you what you are paying for a kWhr?PGE&E electricity comes from nuclear (remember "too cheap to meter"?) renewals such as solar, wind and hydro. Should be low since PG&E is so "green" right? Now way. Today I will pay PG&E as much as $0.54 kWhr during the day. My friend we are paying, and paying and paying. Might not be in the way of fuel taxes but in executive bonus and high rates which much be approved by the "government", Public Utilities Commission.And the power company and Public Utilities Commission is done screwing us yet with the rates for those EV owner who have solar panels. I will save this for another post.I really hope everyone reading this will watch the the two videos called "Fire in Paradise".Then Google, "what does Paradise, CA look like today".

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 06:02:26 pm
content: Quote from: uer166 on July 17, 2020, 04:12:36 amNo. A Toyota Prius beats any EV hands down when it comes to CO2, NOx and SO2 emissions (the latter 2 are the stuff that makes us sick!) when electricity comes from fossil fuels. Even in a country with relatively clean electricity like the Netherlands an EV barely meets euro 6 where it comes to NOx and an EV emits 6 to 20 times more SO2 compared to an efficient hybrid. EVs are dieselgate allover again but nobody is complaining...Just do the math; the numbers can be found online so they are easy to verify.I really don't get why people keep thinking EVs are more efficient compared to cars even if the EV is powered from fossil fuels. It is a complete myth! Electricity from coal produces an average of 1000 grams of CO2 per kWh. This translates to 200grams of CO2 per km when used to power an EV. An efficient hybrid sits at around 100 grams of CO2 per km. Again, these numbers can easily be found online.

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 07:54:53 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 17, 2020, 06:02:26 pmThe Engineering Explained's video did the math, it assumes 100% of the source fuel is natural gas. Please watch it and understand the math before telling other people to "do the math". The worst EV still more efficient than the most efficient ICE. And on average an EV is 2X more efficient than a hybrid.Now with coal that might change, but what % is generated by coal? If you use the real power generation breakdown EVs actually get even better. Not only that, but as the grid is improved, the CO2 footprint of the vehicle is also improved, ICE/non-plug-in hybrids cannot do that.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 08:14:29 pm
content: Quote from: cliffyk on July 17, 2020, 04:55:45 amIgnoring mining and production energy expenditures for a moment, you don't need a "legitimate" study. You can look up WLTP emissions for the petrol car, WLTP energy consumption for the EV, CO2 per KWh of thermal energy from coal, conversion efficiency of a modern coal plant (without CHP) and transmission losses yourself and avoid having to go along with all the biased assumptions in the study. Don't need a study for what you can calculate on a post-it note.When you do so you will see an EV powered by a modern coal plant will have roughly the same emissions as a modern petrol car. The speed at which fossil fuel consumption is going down in electricity generation is much faster than the fuel efficiency of petrol cars is increasing though.The electricity is getting bloody expensive, the batteries are bloody expensive ... but new EVs instead of new petrol cars will reduce emissions.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 08:24:01 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 17, 2020, 06:02:26 pmComparing modern cars to an EV using on average very old generating infrastructure is ridiculous (a lot of which is getting mothballed and/or turned off first when there is surplus power). Modern car, modern coal plant ...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 08:26:38 pm
content: Quote from: ahbushnell on July 17, 2020, 12:06:58 pmYes and that may change at some point, hence it's good to not put all of one's eggs into one basket. A method of saving money is not invalid simply because circumstances may change at some point. Currently today the region I live in has a very favorable climate for EVs. Some of the cheapest electricity in the world, some of the highest percentage of renewable energy, and some of the highest taxes on gasoline and Diesel fuel. That could all change eventually but today an EV makes a lot of financial sense for those whose use cases are well covered by them.Frankly I don't really grasp why so many people get caught up in the binary outlook of one tech vs another. ICE powered cars and hybrids are not going away, they don't have to go away, a portion of them are being replaced by electricity powered cars, they work very well for a significant number of people. They don't work well for everybody and that's fine, that's why ICE cars and hybrids are still available. If your needs are not met by a pure EV then don't get one, problem solved. I really don't understand why certain people who have never even driven one feel compelled to drop into every single thread involving EVs and copy/paste their same old tired rants.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 11:15:15 pm
content: Well said james_s.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2020, 08:34:30 am
content: Hs anyone looked at the math of the Tesla EV semi-truck? I think Elon was saying it had a range of 600 miles. This is the best example of the stupidity of an EV and the energy density of fossil fuels and batteries.In a diesel powered truck for every mile driven, the efficiency for moving the cargo increases. (As the vehicle burns fuel, more of the lighter the remaining becomes.) The amount of fuel needed to move the semi 2,000 miles fits in 2 150 gallon tanks which fit Unser the cab of the truck.For Elon’s semi to travel 600 miles on a charge would require batteries that would fill 90% of the cargo space of the semi. And each mile driven the efficiency decreases. s the batteries become discharged you still have to lug around the weight of the discharged batteries.Think about it. For a Tesla semi to travel 600 miles 90% of that 40 cargo space would have to be batteries. But if it were diesel powered to go the same distance would require just a quarter of a tank or just over 60 gallons.Anyone else’s seeing why EV semis won’t be replacing diesel anytime soon. The only fuel which is more energy dense than fossil fuels is nuclear.

author: gmb42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2020, 01:11:07 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on July 19, 2020, 08:34:30 amI suspect Mr. Musk and his engineers might have. Unless it's a total vanity project Tesla will be expecting some folks to buy and operate them which won't happen without evidence of ROI.I have no idea if the semi will be a commercial success, but folks have been disparaging about Tesla's prospects for years.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2020, 02:02:02 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on July 19, 2020, 08:34:30 amNot quite up there, but Aluminium air gets in range. But it would require a big government to get behind it to be viable ... and it's a bit of a dangerous investment. Could easily be invalidated by cheap renewable propane or methanol or a breakthrough in high density low pressure ambient temperature hydrogen storage.Lithium Ion sucks, but at least you can get the ball rolling at small scale. The two alternatives which are somewhat realistic with current technology, physically recharged aluminium-air and hydrogen, require colossal up front investments ... and hydrogen is kinda sucky too volumetric density wise for the moment.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2020, 03:19:37 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on July 19, 2020, 08:34:30 amI get your point that the efficiency does not increase, since the vehicle does not get lighter. But why would itdecrease? Do the batteries getheavieras they discharge?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2020, 04:56:07 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on July 19, 2020, 03:19:37 pmThank you for challenging/questioning me on this. Technically I am wrong. As batteries discharge they do weigh (picograms) less. So technically the the vehicle would become lighter and un-measurably more efficient.But that's not the point I was making. You are really making me think through the point I was trying to make. You are correct the efficiency would remain the same as the weight of the vehicle would remain the same. What does change is the amount of energy stored in the batteries compared to the weight of the batteries. Compared to a fossil fuel powered vehicle which become more efficient as the fuel is consumed, an EV is less efficient per mile/km driven.I know you get me point... Just not sure how to explain it accurately.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2020, 05:28:46 pm
content: A big advantage of fossil fuels is that the required oxygen comes from the air => don't have to carry it. Complete combustion requires 400 grams of O2 (12.5 mol) for every 114 grams of fuel (1 mol). (2 C8H18 + 25 O2).That's 4/5 parts of the weight of the required "ingredients", that's in / comes from the air.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2020, 05:55:43 pm
content: Very good point.I just made a separate post on this. I will ask here as well.What's the status of Ambri? This is is the company MIT Professor Donald Sadoway created with funding from Bill Gates to create Liquid Metal Batteries. Three years ago Sadoway gave a TED talk saying they be commercially available in 2019/2020 time frame.Wondering what the current status of Liquid Metal Batteries.https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=pDxegcZqx_8&feature=emb_logo