Alison free diploma CV value - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Jim95
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2014, 10:58:05 am
content: Hello all,As a second year EE student, I'm getting to the stage where I need to start improving my CV for work experience and internships.I have done a c programming module last year but I'd like some other certification to show my competence. So after searching around for courses that offer some kind of certification I stumbled upon this websitehttp://alison.com/courses/Diploma-in-Programming-in-CThey offer a free course that seems pretty legit and a diploma at the end of it.Has anyone else used this site or does this seem like a good idea?Thanks for your helpJames

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2014, 11:04:33 am
content: Quote from: Jim95 on October 12, 2014, 10:58:05 amIf I was an interviewer I wouldn't know whether that diploma was worth anything at all, and I wouldn't have the time to go and find out. I would presume, maybe incorrectly, that it was a pay-us-and-get-a-piece-of-paper shop.What would impress me is if you have done, as a hobby, something relevant to my job. That would show me that you go "above and beyond the call of duty" simply because you enjoy it - and are therefor likely to do the same in my job. It would also give me something to discuss at an interview, in which I woudlexpect you to state why you chose it, how you did it, what you learned, and what you would do differently next time.

author: Jim95
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2014, 12:17:17 pm
content: Thank you for your reply. This is a very interesting point.So would you recommend including past and current projects on a CV?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2014, 12:32:51 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 12, 2014, 11:04:33 amYep, I'd also have likely assume that too.QuoteYep, I 2nd this.Just go work on project doing some C. Be it either your own project, or maybe contribute to an open source project or something. That will be more impressive.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2014, 12:34:55 pm
content: Quote from: Jim95 on October 12, 2014, 12:17:17 pmAbsolutely!To an interviewer (at least ones with a clue) that is worth potentially more than any qualification you might have.

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2014, 01:40:30 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 12, 2014, 12:34:55 pmI could not agree more with Dave. When on the other side of the table, your exact GPA won't matter and everyone interviewing for the position will have the same degree. The differentiator is what you do outside of the bare minimum requirements. If you can talk shop and have projects to share, that's the ticket.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2014, 02:18:53 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 12, 2014, 12:34:55 pm"Potentially" yes. But a decent qualification should give you a good theoretical background that will guide your practical choices.One of my, slightly impolite, mantras is "theory without practice is mental masturbation, practice without theory is blind fumbling".Too many people don't have the theoretical background, and so believe salesman when they promise something that is impossible. Classic examples: cross-clock domain signals without explicit synchronisers, or perfect replication of data between different computers.When I'm an interviewer I always quiz interviewees on basic theory that they ought to know, and then get them to demonstrate they know how they would use it to provide a good solid implementation. For example, do they know why FSMs are useful in machine-machine communications - too many only sort-of remember that they are have been used in compilers.

author: Jim95
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2014, 10:47:58 pm
content: Thank you for all your replies. I can feel a project coming on now

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2014, 11:23:51 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 12, 2014, 02:18:53 pmThe point I was trying to make is that most candidates will have the same or similar qualifications.An interviewer can't know (nor do they usually care) anything about what school they went to or what course they did, or what marks you got actually mean. It's like "Degree in xxxxxxxx = TICK"So when mostly everyone has the same or similar qualification what it ultimately comes down to is:a) Do you like them (i.e. you get a warm fuzzy, they have the right personality/enthusiasm you are after, will fit in with the team, etc etc)b) can they do the job I'm hiring them forIn the case being discussed here. All thing being equal, the person that shows me projects they have worked on and code and documentation they have written willalwaysget the job over the other person who just shows that they have done some programming course.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2014, 11:29:05 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 12, 2014, 12:32:51 pmThis here. I credit my learning power supplies and PLCs and such and projects I did with what helped me get hired at my current job. (although I swear, I sometimes feel like a document engineer for all the documents and paperwork I do)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2014, 11:31:43 pm
content: The above being said, their has been the odd occasion where qualifications has trumped practicalities.We had a project which needed someone to work on developing some complex signal analysis stuff, and it was basically impossible to find someone who'd had practical experience on similar stuff before, so we hired the PhD guy who had done at least something remotely close over other (non-PhD) candidates who were much more solid in practical coding and implementation. We gambled that the PhD guy would have a better mindset for the theoretical stuff required.But being almost always based in the practical engineering solutions business, exact qualifications usually rank quite far down the list of importance.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2014, 12:52:59 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 12, 2014, 11:23:51 pmI know which institutions are likely to have a good intake, good course, and high standards. The first filter is thereforanyone from those institutions is looked at more closelyanyone from other institutions will be passed over - unless something they have done/achieved strikes me as particularly interesting or relevantThe second filter is to look at what they've actually done/achieved, which removes some people from the first category!And after that I'll consider getting them in for interview.QuoteAgreed.Whichever way I (and colleagues) have played it, we all know some excellent people that we strongly suspect we wouldn't have employed - and that gives us a little humility w.r.t. knowing our fallibility.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2014, 12:58:06 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 12, 2014, 11:31:43 pmI'll agree with all that, and also add that I've known some truly astounding self-taught people that have a better understanding of the theory than people with the formal qualifications. But that's not the way to bet!I also agree the exact qualification isn't critical. Far more important is the demonstrated ability to succeed in the course and also explore and achieve beyond the boundaries of the formal course.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2014, 01:15:37 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 13, 2014, 12:52:59 amThat's great for you if you know that, and you are welcome to do it that way.My experience is different, and being in Australia with a huge multicultural population, people come from all sorts of countries. I had one guy once come from Zag-a-Zig university, and I thought it was a joke until I looked it up.Even with the schools within Sydney, I can only have a vague idea based on experience with other people I've hired from that school. But even then it's not a great indicator, so as I've said practically almost always trumps that.I never first line filter resumes based on education and/or what school. That is so uninformed inexperienced corporate HR policyQuoteIME that 2nd step there is foolish. I would never rule out someone because I hadn't heard of the school.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2014, 08:37:05 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 13, 2014, 01:15:37 amIt certainly is more difficult with overseas institutions. For all the UK institutions, and for many European/US/Canadian/Australian/NZ institutions, I can make a good guess - which is all that is necessary at thisfirst stageof the multi-stage filteringprocess.For the jobs for which I have been an interviewer, a good grasp of theory has been essential - without it anyone would have been floundering. I acknowledge that not only may that be unusual, but also a rounded team often includes a range of people with complementary skills and backgrounds.QuoteIs there any other form of corporate HR? Certainly not w.r.t. technical qualifications, and arguably w.r.t. "cultural fit" where what they are looking for is whether someone will fit in with the HR department. More seriously, I have seen two excellent HR departments, where they treated people as individuals not resources. Even so, in one case we found they had been filtering out potentially interesting candidates. Perhaps the rot set in when companies stopped hiring personnel and started hiring resources.And after considering HR-droids, we descend to the recruitment agency cyanobacteria. Shudder.QuoteNeither would I, as I explicitly stated.But there's the perennial insoluble problem: if I have 100 CVs and 10% look worth interviewing, I don't have time to investigate the other 90% on the off-chance there I might miss someone else. While I'd like to get the best possible candidate, I try to remember the old engineering adage "the best is the enemy of the good".

author: Jim95
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2014, 12:19:16 pm
content: This has also brought me to another question that is related.Importance of work experience.At the moment I'm looking into contacting slightly smaller companies rather than the huge firms (rolls royce, land rover, ARM)Are these smaller companies which dont have a work experience scheme in place likely to take me on for a short period of time, say 4-6 weeks?I guess any experience puts you above a similar candidate with no experience as again I would be able to talk about my roles and what I gained from that experience.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2014, 01:16:19 pm
content: When I look through piles of CVs. I wantA degree, and so long as it's a desmond or higher from a decent uni or a 2:1 or first from one of the places that used to be a kindergarten until "university for everyone" was implemented then that's ok. I also want an idea of the final year project and any work experience. Work experience is great, I will usually know someone at the place you got experience at and the impression you made whilst there is far better than anything I'm likely to learn in an interview.Poor grammer. and speeling also I don't want. Rejection you will get.I want to know what you've achieved, I don't want to know that you're a team player who is also comfortable working alone, that you're committed to work hard or any other phrases that have no place outside bullshit bingo.When I've been looking to recruit grads, what I want is a sense of humour and some common sense. A base grounding of the fundamentals and some interest in electronics also need to be demonstrated.Quote from: Jim95 on October 13, 2014, 12:19:16 pmI would aim to get 10 weeks experience out of them over the summer. I can't be arsed having a summer student for any less time. By the time you've got past HSE, HR and got an account from the IT guys to let you log on to the computer that they forgot to put in place for you, I'd like to have more than a few days where to see if you can do anything more useful than get the coffee order right.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2014, 01:27:58 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 13, 2014, 08:37:05 amYet that seems to be exactly what you are doing with your admitted first stage academic filter?You can claim it'sonlythe first stage, but then below you admit it's also one of reducing workload? So it seems that there is a very good chance that "interesting candidates" will simply never get a look-in with your first round academic filter?QuoteI certainly agree that you can't and shouldn't interview every person you get a resume for, that's not practical.But an academic filter being a solution to this? To me that seems a bit arse-about to real world requirements.For me, I scan each resume completely, and it only takes maybe a minute or two per resume.But ultimately, because I'm hiring someone to do a job, the most viable candidates (in terms of risk percentage) will always be the ones that already have proven experience doing that same job. So that is always my basic first line filter. I don't know why anyone would do it differently for most practical jobs?If I need a VHDL FPGA designer, then everyone who mentions they have worked on FPGA VHDL design automatically goes to the good pile (unless there is a huge immediate BS indicator). Maybe if you have done a VHDL course I might throw you in if I liked the sound of you, but that's the exception, not the rule.But I'll also throw in some others if I really liked to sound of them, but they didn't quite have the experience.This is why professional engineering resumes shouldn't have academic qualifications and other stuff first. You have summary, then work experience, then education bringing up the rear.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2014, 01:33:14 pm
content: Quote from: Jim95 on October 13, 2014, 12:19:16 pmI don't see why not. As there is usually a lot less red tape in smaller companies. The owner likes you? you're hired, that kind of thing.Although smaller companies usually want better bang-per-buck, so are probably more likely to give you work they know you can do (i.e. a trained monkey could do) than a bigger company who just do it as more of a good-will or cultivating gesture, and aren't all that concerned with how productive you are from a day 1.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2014, 01:33:59 pm
content: QuoteEducation is of value only if it is expensive, painful, scarce and well known.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2014, 01:43:47 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on October 13, 2014, 01:16:19 pmI should have said above that my comments related to experienced roles. Graduate roles are treated different, where I might very well put a lot more emphasis on what school you went to, and yes, what your final project was. Youdidbring in your final project and documentation to show off, right?QuoteOh yeah, that stuff bugs me. Cookie cutter template resumes also bug me. I like resumes with some personality. Heck, put your photo on there and you'll stand out like a dogs hind leg.QuoteYep, boring people get the thumbs down.You don't smile and you don't laugh?, well, you'd want to be a genius to make up for it.And yes, I accommodate for interview nerves.BTW, as an interviewee, I hate interviewers that are all formal and more boring than a speech bot.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2014, 02:45:08 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on October 13, 2014, 01:16:19 pmBeen watching "The Apprentice" too much have you?I have, and I hate empty bluster!OTOH, my daughter could legitimately put "team player:demonstratedby being launch team member on a runway launching and retrieving aircraft".Apart from that what does "being a team player" actually mean? That you put up with all the fag-end jobs? That you do all the work and let others take the credit - or your share of the blame?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2014, 02:50:29 pm
content: Quote from: Jim95 on October 12, 2014, 10:58:05 amYou must think your degree course really really really really sucks if you think that some obscure pogramming diploma carries any weight by comparison.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2014, 02:58:28 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 13, 2014, 01:27:58 pmThe engineers felt HR's filter was miscalibrated for engineering roles. We had a different calibration, that's all.QuoteThe issue is wider than just academic qualifications. As I wrote in an earlier message:QuoteQuoteThat's about what I do. Maybe our techniques aren't so different.QuoteFor many of the jobs for which I have been an interviewer, there simply could not be practical experience: inventing the technology was the major part of the job description!QuoteJust so.

author: Jim95
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2014, 04:54:50 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 13, 2014, 02:50:29 pmNot at all but I'm looking for things that separate me from my course-mates

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2014, 04:59:17 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 13, 2014, 02:45:08 pmWhat it actually means, unless they then mention the team, is that they don't get an interview. For grad roles, I've usually had a hundred CVs and a couple of positions. I stop reading the CV at the first red flag and too many of them have generic bullshit that sets the flag off. I'd probably aim to interview about six people. That means that 94% of the cut will be at CV stage.

author: kingofkya
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2014, 05:17:44 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 13, 2014, 01:43:47 pmI haven't hired more that a few people but yeah when you have seen the same 3 ms word temples for the 20th time that day they starts going in the boring pile.A non-standard layout got me the job I am in so I can't be the only one:) And this was an IT job not electronics but experience and hobbies that are related still means more than a class you may have taken. I made the mistake on not including them on my last resume it really could have hurt me, but the interview got all that stuff out so didn't matter much in that case.Also don't get discouraged in your search, you don't not know what job you want but sometimes the job creaters don't know ether.