Are expensive soldering stations really worth it? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 05:04:08 am
content: So I have a $10 temperature controlled soldering iron that I've been using for 6 years. It's potentiometer and triac controlled, and uses 900M tips.I solder a few boards per month on average, both SMT and through hole, but occasionally do a 10-board job for pre-production design verification. I am still on the original tip that came with it, which is a conical tip with one side sanded, and works well for almost everything from low pitch QFN to through hole.This has served me well and gets the job done with no fuss, but for soldering big RF connectors the thermal response isn't good and I have to use above 350C and take more than 5 seconds. I would like better thermal response which would allow me to cut down on time spent per board.I would like to upgrade to a "proper" soldering station, but it seems a big jump to go from a $10 disposable iron to a $200+ station. I first surveyed what is available locally. The higher end ones average $50, and use a tip construction like this (they call it "500M"), which seems to poke a thermocouple close to the top of the tip (?):My question is how much thermal performance improvement can I expect from a tip construction like the above, and what else besides thermal performance does a "name brand" station like Hakko or Pace offer over my $10 iron to justify its cost? (and don't say "quality" - I know how to weed out shit crap on taobao and get something that lasts a decade, which I'm sure my $10 iron will).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 05:23:02 am
content: Without having used your soldering iron I can't really say, but to me it was certainly worth it. $200 is not much to pay for a tool you will use frequently that can last decades.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 05:37:46 am
content: True, if it does last a decadeMy experience is stuff fail just outside warranty regardless of brand. It's always a gamble so the most I can assume is something will last 2 years, and put a big emphasis on ease of repair (replacement parts availability). I think most likely I'll first try the local stuff and get a proper name brand station if it does fail or doesn't live up to expectations.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 05:41:56 am
content: This is only one data point but I bought my Edsyn Loner soldering station used almost 20 years ago and I'm still using it. I've replaced the tip 3 or 4 times in the time I've owned it, I use it typically several times a week.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 06:06:07 am
content: Quick change tips are worth it. Other than that, $50 T12 stations from Ali work just as well as more branded stuff.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 07:48:52 am
content: Hakko, Pace or Weller, probably not. Metcal, for sure, buy that. Try one, never look back.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 09:31:02 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 14, 2020, 07:48:52 amI have ADS200 from PACE.Built like tank, inexpensive tips, loads of power. And you don't need to change tips to set temperature..To me worth every penny, but it is used in production not hobby. So it pays for itself.For hobby, any soldering station with thermostat control (so it doesn't overheat) 50-60 W and few decent shape tips will do.For boards with high thermal mass, you need preheating anyways.

author: Helix70
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 01:13:29 pm
content: At work, I use a JBC CD-B with the T245 handle. It is so much better than other cheaper irons (Hakko, Weller etc) that I sold my Hakko station at home and bought the same JBC for home.If for no other reason that the heat is turned off after putting the pencil back in the holder, it was worth it (no more hot iron for days by mistake!). Of course, being able to change the tips easily when it is still hot is another "never go back" feature (5 seconds).This leads to the thermal perfomance, witch is fantastic with the normal conical tip, and rediculous with the chunky tip (both included), used for ground planes, copper sheets, thick cables, whatever. I bought a C245-937 tip to improve the 0.6mm conical tip thermal performance for fine soldering on large planes.Once I showed it to the local tech space, they bought one too.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 09:42:16 pm
content: Owo, since all you've ever used is a conical tip, you can not only get some MASSIVE changes in performance for especially SMD tasks by using the right tip, but because you have a Hakko clone, you can try these tips for super cheap right now. (Try the T18 tips, not the 900M; the T18 will fit your iron but they work better).If you bought a Metcal or whatnot, trying a new tip might cost twice your current station.I would rather use a crappy iron with the right tip than the Metcal with only a conical.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 09:44:10 pm
content: We have Metcal at work, and I don't really see what's all the fuss is about. It is no worse and no better than any other soldering station I used. And yes, maintenance for them is expensive.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 10:07:51 pm
content: Try the T12 style.For the same electrical power, monocartridges like T12 are thermally much more powerful than what you have had. There are plenty of cheap yet decent T12 based solder stations + T12 cartridges clones.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 10:14:27 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on February 14, 2020, 09:42:16 pmI agree completely. Although tiny conical tips on a metcal are actually usable for precision bodge work, on other stations I've used they are not as good (FM202, FX951, T12 clones, and a ton of cheap stations).As for OP, you just need to try other stations if you can. I seriously can't believe you are using $10 junk to solder multiple boards every month, you deserve better. At least a T12 clone please.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 11:23:18 pm
content: To me it really depends on what the alternative is. A moderately powered temperature controlled iron with a good tip availability will do most of what you need. And after that I would spend money on a second iron, a good set of tips, hot air tools, and probably a bunch of other tools as well. For instance, in terms of reworking high copper boards, the nicest, highest power direct heat soldering iron isn't as good as having a hot air preheater and a cheap soldering iron.But if you aren't trying to scrape together enough $$$ just to make sure you have a complete set of tools, a good soldering iron is a nice luxury that I really like to use. I use a JBC at work, and it is amazing. Heats unbelievably fast, instant tip changes, plenty of power and heat control, great tips. But ultimately those are mostly convenience features.

author: Mp3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 02:04:16 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 14, 2020, 09:44:10 pmI think im glad i went with pace.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 04:28:24 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on February 14, 2020, 09:42:16 pmYes the conical tip was useless for SMD soldering out of the box, so I sanded off one side which made QFN and drag soldering much easier.Currently I have no problems with SMD soldering, just need more thermal capacity for big connectors on ground planes (which mostly can't have thermal relief).Unfortunately other than hakko it seems most of the commonly known brands (Pace, JBC) are unheard of here and no one seems to sell them, so tip availability might be an issue later on; T12/TS100 clones look like a good candidate.If I search for production soldering stations (on either JD or taobao), there are a lot of stations that advertise "fast thermal recovery", but I haven't yet found any that use a cartridge tip; they all seem to use 500M tips which look like this (seems to originate from the quick 205H):Has anyone here had any experience with these and know whether they actually have good thermal performance? Would a 60W cartridge tip outperform these 150W 500M tip based stations?

author: exmadscientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 05:35:12 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 14, 2020, 09:44:10 pmWe've found that the Thermaltronics tips are equal to or better than the Metcal tips at around a third of the price.Other random Metcal thoughts: The Metcal/Thermaltronics RF Curie point system does seem to underperform with small tips. (Perhaps the element is too far from the tip, due to minimum sizes? I don't know, I shouldn't speculate too wildly.) For the really fine stuff I'd rather have a JBC. For "old school" through-hole sized work, Metcal does seem to be best (if not by much). And for the "massive ground plane" type jobs (remember to enable thermal spokes!), Metcal also struggles because the RF amplifiers simply can't put out as much power as more basic designs.It still kicks Weller's butt though.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 07:55:45 am
content: QuoteThm_W: But what temp did you run your 951 at? And did you remember that the pointier of the 700 series tips run as high as 398C?I believe the Metcal is worth every penny... if you like it. The ergos and balance is very good and very unique. And it is ruggedly built and well-supported for heavy production use. And it works, great. I'm sure it more than holds its own, even when you compare apples to apples. But if I were outfitting my own employees with them, I might wonder if I wasn't paying some extra $$$ for what is my own personal preference, compared to some cheaper alternatives. For myself, if I like it? Sure, what's a few hundos?On second thought, the Metcal system is maybe the best for professional use, because you can't adjust the temp. For me, I like to adjust for the job. But in a work environment, if the station is adjustable, completely wrong settings get used... for a week before anyone realizes why output has dropped and error rate has gone up.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 10:10:50 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on February 15, 2020, 07:55:45 amFirst, I was also like " but how do I adjust???" and after a while, being stuck with it, I realized, that adjustment is overrated, if it does the job. And it does. I've yet to find a solderjoint, that I was unable to do with it. The only reason IMHO to have adjustment, if you want to abuse your station to melt plastics or heat up your coffee. Or IDK.we have a bunch of them at work, powered for 8 hours a day for years, and they work as expected. Replace tips after they are gone, take out from the holder, 2 sec later you can solder with it. Tip replacement in 10 seconds.Starting price is 350 EUR. Sure, you can maybe buy 10x T12 stations for this, and then take them apart connect the ground, so you dont die if you touch the housing, and fiddle with the controls, and upload new code, because the original code has bugs and and hope that a failure of a single FET will not set your house on fire.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 12:54:09 pm
content: For me, the short grip-to-tip distance is the key benefit of my ERSA i-Con. Maybe I have gotten clumsier over the years; the longer distances of my older irons feel uncomfortable in comparison now.Is the temperature regulation etc. so much better than in cheaper stations? Not sure, e.g. soldering to large ground planes still takes a bit of time. The i-Con is good but not working any magic on that front.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 02:22:34 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 15, 2020, 10:10:50 amThe main reason people adjust the temperature of their iron is to crank it up so the temperature doesn't plummet too much when they apply the iron to a large object. The whole point of the Metcal design is to reduce those temperature drops, so twiddling the temperature becomes a moot point.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 04:27:24 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on February 15, 2020, 12:54:09 pmI also really like the grip-to-tip distance on my i-Con nano and now find irons with longer distances to be super annoying to use.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 05:18:49 pm
content: I'm a big fan of my Ersa i-Con ergonomics-wise. I want to try a JBC someday but I can't justify another soldering station.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 05:33:12 pm
content: Having used both, I prefer the ergonomics of the Ersa. On the other hand, the JBC tips are much easier to swap. (But crazy expensive!) But to be clear, these are both excellent stations.Me, I’m trying to find a way to justify to myself buying a Pace. :p

author: ferdieCX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 05:48:46 pm
content: I am very satisfied with my ERSA I-CON 2. The short grip to tip distance of the i-Tool is very comfortable.For really massive components, I hook to the station the Power-Tool iron and use a wide tip.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 06:33:56 pm
content: QuoteI think the metcal doesn't do this fundametally different than other irons, though. I suspect people get the impression it performs better, simply because the setpoints of the pokey metcal tips is so high, combined with a sleep stand.I think if peeps turned the knob up to 400C with the needle point, then many of their less expensive stations will also work similarly well. Just hope they have a sleep stand.I think the metcal is great, but to me it's for the quality, ergos, and durability. And the simplicity and removal of human error, esp where people share equipment they don't own or care about.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 08:40:03 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on February 15, 2020, 06:33:56 pmThe whole point of a Metcal (and the Hakko and other irons which work in a similar way) is it DOES do things differently. The RF heating makes the thing respond almost instantly to a drop in temperature, with a rapid influx of energy right to the tip. That's thy the temperature drop is much smaller than with any resistive heating iron.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 09:01:48 pm
content: QuoteI don't believe any of that. If the temperature drop were much smaller, then it wouldn't need to be 398C.QuoteI understand how they work, and I understand how a "traditional" 888 style works. And I've used both. And this entire sentence is irrational to me. I don't believe this is the case.The main benefit of the metcal system is that more of the heat goes to the tip, not to the handle. In the really demanding tasks what would make a Hakko 888 handle piece uncomfortably hot, this is where the cartridge system is super beneficial. Regarding temp regulation, not so much different as two different ways to skin the same cat.That said, the Metcal is going to punch the hardest for the watt rating.I don't expect you to follow this. Not too many people understand the physics of this and have spend weeks contemplating and comparing in practice different iron designs.Best to just ignore me and continue thinking you are right. That puts you in the best company. I'm not being condescending. I've come to realize I'm the grammar-nazi of physics and marketing wank, and no one else really cares about the semantics.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 09:13:27 pm
content: Yes they are worth it, but cartridge based stations are more for the prosumer/professional than hobbyist. Consumer based products are built to cost rather than quality and as such are bound to fail quicker.China just happens to be the world leader in making cheap plastic shit at a time when people are realizing waste is a big issue. Not all plastic is bad and it's not just Chinas fault, everyone from manufacturers to consumers are to blame.I get typically 10-20 years out of everything I own and a few years back I realized I'll never need to buy another TV in my life due to the failure rates just out of warranty, I've virtually an unlimited supply of broken ones to choose from.I've recently replaced a washing machine as the PCB enclosure (hard plastic) had become brittle after 20 years or so, but that is about it.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 09:30:23 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on February 15, 2020, 09:01:48 pm

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 09:37:47 pm
content: Except I don't get a smile out of it. I just get shit on.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 10:22:40 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 15, 2020, 08:40:03 pmRF technology or induction heating on it's own doesn't mean all Metcal models are going to be better than anything else out there. Here is a chart from JBC which highlights this and two other things: JBC tips don't always heat up in 2 seconds and their stations overshoot ~20C.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 10:39:07 pm
content: Just wanted to add another major advantage of the cartridge tips (metcal/JBC/T12/ADS) vs old ceramic heater styles, so's I'm not trying to say they're the same in every regard.They are way better for using sleep stands. The 888 style tips need way more mass of copper to work properly, so will cchange temp slower. So if you run temps/tips where you benefit from sleep and are frequently in/out of the stand, then cartridges will provide a major advantage, which should provide longer tip life under these conditions, and faster operation out of the stand.So, for many people the Metcal is going to be better. And in exactly the scenarios they imagine. It's the common reasoning of the how and the why which I disagree with. Once up to temp, this "responding faster and dumping more heat faster" thing is not actually the case (in any significance) how I understand it.The RF Curie deal does not do anything to correct the sag between base/sensor copper and tip copper (and this is the sag that matters). What it does is make it faster to raise and lower the entire saggy bed, between sleep temp and the sliding scale of fixed set temps that compensate for the tip type. Same for pretty much all cartridge tip irons, but with those others, you have to jack up the dial, yourself.(For me, I have almost zero use for pokey tips, or protoyping of multilayer boards, so I don't need to use high temps/sleep. Even if the pokey tip provided insta result and didn't require more frequent wiping/cleaning, I would still gravitate towards the largest tips for the job for the way they interact with and handle solder.)

author: twospoons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 11:04:26 pm
content: Over the last 40 years I've used all sorts of irons - from cheap no-name ones, to Weller, Pace, Hakko, Ersa and Metcal. Both variable and fixed temps.I own a Metcal PS-900 and I love it. For me it seems to just work really well, no matter what the job.So yes, expensive soldering stations really are worth it. Once you've used a really good iron you wont want to go back to a cheap junker. Which you choose comes down to personal preference - as can be seen from the varied opinions expressed so far. I like Metcal - you may like something else. So long as it works for you thats all that really matters.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 11:40:25 pm
content: Cartridges pros: easier to swap when hot and less chance of damaging anything delicate like a ceramic heater. Not limited by geometry like models which have a sleeve slide over the tip. Faster to heat up and subsequently come out of standby. Generally a slimmer profile handpiece. Less to fail inside the handpiece (most of them are just a holder with a socket for the cartridge). If the heater in one cartridge fails it doesn't render the station inoperable. Shorter working distance. As KL27x mentioned, less coupling from the cartridge to the handpiece can mean less loss and cooler operator temps.Cartridges cons: typically the station is more expensive. Most genuine cartridge tips (Pace is a bit of an exception) aren't cheap. Dropping a cartridge is a bad idea but it's not the end of the world if you have a spare.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 01:01:06 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on February 15, 2020, 09:01:48 pmExcept theregular lead free tip temperature is 357C. I typically set the Weller to 350 before that, so thats within margin of error. Also, I am fairly sure you havent used this iron, as you wouldnt write this much bullshit.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 02:56:18 am
content: QuoteI assume you had a brainfart and meant to type "the regular leaded tip temp."357C is the maximum temp of the 600 series. A lot of people use this for lead, but the 700 seems to be more popularly recommended, IME, and it's the middle of the 5 rages for Metcal. If you use the 600 series and use the eye poker tip and it works on multilayer boards with internal planes, then say so, and I believe you.The Metcal 700 series ranges up to 413C per their PDF, and the Thermaltronics 700 series ranges up to 398C, per their website.On the MFR range Metcal only lists 3 temp categories, and the one recommended for all FR-4 uses goes to 421C. The low one they list "temperature sensitive applications" tops out at 366C.I have never owned or bought tips for one, but I have used a Metcal, and I liked it a lot. Being made for production use, I am not surprised if the 700 series is too hot for hobbyists. It might be more bang-on for production work with lead.The Thermaltronics webpage is more illuminating, because it displays the temp minimum for the series, too, so you see the entire range of temp. Fattest tip vs pointiest tip makes ~50C difference. You turn the knob on any station 50C higher after putting on a skinnier tip, and it's gonna be cooking with some fire.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 03:49:05 am
content: It's ok to adjust the temp NANDBlog, Metcal sells each tip in 4 to 5 different temps just for that exact purpose.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 06:42:09 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on February 15, 2020, 07:55:45 amI was running it over 700, the heat just gets sucked out of the small tips, you can't really compensate for it.Normally I use the Hakko at 650 and its great, its just terrible with the tiny/long conical tips on multi-layer boards.I totally agree with what you are saying though, the tips run hot, most of mine are 600 series though and I use leaded solder wherever possible for rework. If I were on lead-free I'd have to be a fair bit more careful, due to higher risk of burning sensitive parts. You'll want good air exhaust as well.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 09:44:29 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on February 16, 2020, 02:56:18 amNo, I did mean lead free. You are only ruining your electronics, if you are soldering anywhere above 360. I was able to solder busbars into 4 layer, 70 um pcbs at this temperature. You might need to pre-heat, or use two irons, but guess what, thats why they have 2 channel stations. On the other hand your result is working electronics, and no burn marks on your PCB.I mean soldering means different things for different people. If you are tinning wires and every second counts, by all means go with higher temperature. But for PCBs, and components on it, even 350-360 is too much.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 10:04:12 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 16, 2020, 09:44:29 amHmm... I was always under the assumption that 2-channel stations were built to allow you to rapidlyswitchbetween two handpieces, for alternating different soldering tasks. Also, I have used two irons at once fordesolderingparts at times (and felt that it was an unprofessional workaround). But how do you juggle two irons and the solder at once?The busbar example is not the most relevant for temperature control discussions, btw. I don't think the busbars woud have complained about a somewhat higher tip temperature...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 10:22:24 am
content: Quote from: twospoons on February 15, 2020, 11:04:26 pmI second this. Once you go Metcal you don't go back.99%+ of the time you really don't need to give a crap about the tip temperature. What matters is the dwell time. And with a Metcal that is probably the lowest time out there.What I really like about the Metcal is I can go from soldering 0603's to PCB boxes without having to futz with it. Then off to banging 20 joints a minute. It just does it and shuts up.

author: Mp3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 10:54:08 am
content: I hope i get the opportunity to try a Metcal one day, but i was pretty damn impressed with the ADS200, it handled some jobs tonight that were big frustrating heat sinks to work on.Left it at 700 and it was perfect.Then went and assembled some thru hole + 0603 kits. No adjustments, and a nice long handle so i could work on a 76-key piano while it was on a keyboard stand next to my workstation.It's the first iron I ever besides some cheap T12 clone garbage that lets me hot-swap the tip, so that's fun too.I love the ADS200 but i wonder if someone can compare it to a Metcal so i can satisfy some of my curiosity without spending a few hundredThat said, i feel little desire to ever use my TS100 again after the ADS200; which is how i felt after trying the TS100 when the best i'd ever tried prior to that was the Hakko 888.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 11:57:56 am
content: Whatever expensive soldering iron you may want to collect later, you need at least a T12 now. There are improved T12 handle on taobao that allow easy replacement of tips (hope you can sense the momentum behind). For this handle, the tip is inserted and is held by friction force so a locking nut is not needed. Recently, I tapped a few tips (relatively less painful as non-Hakko tips are available cheaply and with plenty of different shapes) to hold the various kind of heating heads available on taobao (aliexpress should have also). The head that can hold sharp blade for removing of glue on LCD or electronics, or for cutting plastics. And there is another head to hold soft silicone which allow it to reheat/solder LCD ribbons. To lower your cost, you can pick up used genuine Hakko T12 tips for your soldering needs. From my last purchase, the condition of these used irons were very good.For T12 controllers, I will get a high thermal capacity for a start.Waiting time for heating or cooling is not a concern to me, my bench tidying can use it.

author: epongenoir
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 12:03:50 pm
content: Quote from: Helix70 on February 14, 2020, 01:13:29 pmThis, absolutely. I had a cheap ATTEN 8586 some time ago.One friend of mine hada JBC, showed me, and i bought one.Never been happier with soldering. It's AMAZING how fast and high performance that thing is.For work in the field i use a TS100 with the laptop charger.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 12:14:06 pm
content: Just a point on the T12. The two units I had were either dangerous or blew up. The mains version is dodgy as fuck at best and the handles both went short and blew the MOSFET on the control board. Really poor quality.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 12:46:47 pm
content: You need to be specific with your controllers. T12 is referring to the tips. There are genuine tips that are generally better quality. You must be referring to the controllers, there are so many types available and many are experimental, DIY, some went for smallest form factor, and some went for high thermal capacity, some went for field portability. I have at least 5 different kinds, excluding the TS100, none gave me any problem so far.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 01:15:09 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 16, 2020, 09:44:29 amNonsense. They've used these things in production for decades. You're expected to actually be competent at soldering and not sit there roasting your parts for 30 seconds a joint.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 01:51:53 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 16, 2020, 01:15:09 pmPerhaps, but the interest in high performance soldering irons is really a result of lead free solder. Any old simple Weller or Hakko iron kept people happy in the lead solder days, and allowed them to work quickly.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 05:02:07 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 16, 2020, 01:51:53 pmI still enjoy the heating time, rapidly changed tips, and ability to handle large masses which lesser systems struggle with, even with leaded solder.That said, I have a cheap and nasty light-dimmer controlled hot poker which I can solder just fine with too - it's more the user than the tool if the tool has the basic capacity.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 06:38:08 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 16, 2020, 01:51:53 pmLead-free may have exacerbated the situation, but high performance soldering stations have been in use far longer than lead-free was a thing. And if lead-free were the reason, then industries that are exempt from lead-free (like aerospace) would not bother with high-performance stations.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 07:23:44 pm
content: Quote from: OwO on February 14, 2020, 05:04:08 amAn adjustable power iron is not "temperature controlled" in the common sense. What people really mean is "temperature regulated".QuoteA temperature regulated soldering iron makes a huge difference. It means that full power, 50 watts or more, can be applied without high temperatures which would destroy the work-piece.

author: Mp3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 11:31:52 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 16, 2020, 09:44:29 amI would agree with this completely for new boards, but i sometimes do repairs on decades old boards that are thick and heavy as hell. The heat gets drawn to all the wrong places so its too easy to make cold joints with them, and i have most consistent success hanging out around 360-370c with conical tip. Then i can focus the energy precisely and quickly fill the thru-hole with solder in under 2 seconds.Due to the design of these boards, very thick with very tiny thru holes placed only a couple mm apart (only can fit 30awg or something) even a chisel tip makes it too easy to bridge two adjacent holes instead of properly filling one.I have noticed since I went to a nicer iron that could provide better thermals on these tougher jobs, i certainly have less heat marks on my pcb's and MUCH less need to re-solder my work due to cold joints......I still hope one day I'll get to try a Metcal. I'm sure there are some in my home town. I just don't know where or who owns them. It seems like all my fellow Americans on this site never even saw them for sale and only know them through their careers.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 11:55:26 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 16, 2020, 07:23:44 pmThere is nothing to suggest Owo doesnt have a thermostatically controlled iron from what you quoted. I would assume it IS thermostatically controlled, since it takes 900m tips, and those heaters have a thermistor in them. Well, that's going above and beyond, since Owo says it temperature controlled, and why not take his version, since he is the one with the station?Most of the $10.00ish power-adjustable stations I have seen have the stick tips that slide in and get held by a set screw.Added: how many 936 and clones are out there? These use a triac for switching and a potentiometer temp knob to adjust the voltage to the comparator reference input. If a pot and a triac is almost all that's in there, well, I suppose phase control power adjust is possibility. But 6 years and still wants advice if he should upgrade? If you put down a million dollars on power-control would you want to change your bet before the ball stops bouncing?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 12:14:24 am
content: Quote from: coppice on February 15, 2020, 02:22:34 pmYou also sometimes need to drop the temperature for repair work so that poor quality laminates don't lift pads etc.Even the magical Metcals offer 500F and 600F tips in addition to standard 700F (370C) tip. So if you do need lower temp tips then you have to buy a whole duplicate set of tips at a different temperature.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 12:27:12 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2020, 12:14:24 amNo, you need to buy whatever tips you require to work on flimsy old boards. I don't need most of my tips to work on old through-hole constructions.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 12:48:58 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 17, 2020, 12:27:12 amIsn't that exactly what he said? Drop the temp, ie buy a lower temperature tip appropriate for the task if you do find yourself needing to do that?Of course it's more convenient to simply turn down the dial on a more typical soldering station, but I don't really think that's the sort of use Metcal is going for. Their stuff seems to be targeted at production and professional rework where one isn't likely to need to fiddle with the temperature.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 12:50:12 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 17, 2020, 12:48:58 am

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 12:54:01 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 17, 2020, 12:48:58 amCorrect.Great for that, not so great for versatile lab use.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 02:10:03 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on February 17, 2020, 01:56:16 amVersatility means the ability to easily adapt to changing requirements.There are two aspects to every soldering iron in terms of flexibility:1) The range of tips available2) The ease to regulate and adjust temperatureFixed temp ironsforce youto do #1 in order to do #2, adjustable temperature irons do not.The argument whether or notyoudo or don't have to is not relevant to the discussion of flexibility. It's a demonstrable fact that adjustable temperature stations are more versatile than fixed temperature ones, you can't argue that.If that flexibility isn't important to you, that's completely fine. As stated before, it can actually be an advantage in a production environment, but we aren't talking abut that when it comes to flexibility.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 09:12:59 am
content: I haven't read the whole thread but to directly answer the question, yes, I think they are worth it.I've got a "937D" type soldering station from eBay at home and while it does the job, the cable attached to the iron is ridiculously short and stiff (which requires the use of a different soldering iron to change) and the iron doesn't feel very nice in your hand. It also takes ages to heat up. I haven't tried one of those smaller units that I saw someone mention earlier in the thread - perhaps they're a bit better.At work I've got an Ersa i-con 2 and the cables are generously long, very flexible and the irons heat up in under 5 seconds. I often bring soldering jobs to work because it's a much nicer experience.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 03:06:14 am
content: ^That 937D is a steamer. The handle gets as hot as the tip. That's my worst of two experiences with a 936 clone. The other wasn't too shabby, until the handpiece broke in half.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 09:15:26 am
content: I just got one of those 500M based stations ($50) to try out, and so far it's solved my issue of soldering big chunks of metal. I can even solder 3mm thick copper plate (5x5 cm) without the flux burning when the workpiece is removed. The temperature display on it is definitely wrong though, as I'm soldering the copper plate at 310C which I simply don't believe. It supports calibrating the temperature which I might do later. "normal" soldering (through hole and smt) are done comfortably at 250C display temperature, so I'll say it's off by 50C. 330C display temperature is when the flux in my leaded solder starts giving a "quick puff of smoke" which agrees well with it being 50C off. I *think* there's some overshoot after a big soldering but it's not bad enough to smoke the flux. The reaction time is fast and it shows the temperature dip in about 1s after touching the workpiece, and then heater turns on. Touching a big SMA connector now melts the solder right away (at "310C" which I think is 360C).Overall it's more than adequate for my use cases and I can now even solder RF power amplifiers with it (previously that was done using several candles). The handle doesn't get hot. Tip to grip distance is 7cm which is much shorter than my last iron. The build quality is ok although I'll be taking it apart to check mains wiring.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 11:03:25 am
content: Quote from: OwO on February 20, 2020, 09:15:26 amThis gets overlooked by many and is another feature of the more expensive models, the working distance and size of the handle compared to how hot it gets. The Pace ADS200 (120W) cartridges are about 40-50mm working distance (aside from the large rework blades) and the handle is slim, ergonomic and stays cool. It's very similar to the Metcal which also has a good working distance.Here is a comparison against the TS100 (65W) handle which gets nice and hot and looks almost twice as long. I've never understood this product fully and why the controller is in the handle, it makes no sense if it needs a cable attached to the power source anyway.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 11:02:13 pm
content: Quote from: OwO on February 20, 2020, 09:15:26 am205H soldering station? That seems like a good price. Temperature being offset is not a big deal at all, since you know what to set it to.Seriously glad you upgraded from that old stuff.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 04:02:20 am
content: This one:Seems to be a china-only model though as I can't find anything about it on google.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 04:59:03 am
content: Huh, TS2300C sells for over $200 USD for what looks like the same thing.Also this came up in the search and made me LOL:The story for those who can't read moon runes: long time ago a Chinese company misappropriated Hakko's kanji brand name 白光 (read "Hakko" in Japanese) and started selling Hakko clones under the same name, but romanized as "Bakon" (presumably the cantonese reading?) This one here changes one character, mixes the chinese and japanese readings to become "Huakko"

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 02:51:09 pm
content: Quote from: OwO on February 21, 2020, 04:59:03 am白光 == baak gwong in Cantonese, so bakon is a pretty poor match. Maybe they should have used the name bacon. Anything sells well when there is bacon in it.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 05:48:36 pm
content: Why change if what you have does the job ?My experience of soldering stations has been poor.I bought one from Maplin that lasted two weeks and went through tips every couple of days !Got it replaced and next one did the same.So gave up with Maplin soldering stations and bought a cheap Antex soldering iron.Had it now a good few years and tips last for years.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 06:27:29 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on February 21, 2020, 05:48:36 pmThat's what you get for buying from Maplin..

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 06:36:02 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 21, 2020, 06:27:29 pmAt least you can't make that mistake again now!

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 07:01:19 pm
content: Quote from: OwO on February 14, 2020, 05:04:08 amThis one is very good, and about $80 or so:http://duckduckgo.com/?q=sl2020+jbc&ia=images&iax=images

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 07:49:53 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on February 20, 2020, 11:03:25 amRight. From ergonomics point of view I find Ersa I-con handles the best of the best, thou price of I-Con stations is "hobby-prohibitive". Review:https://xdevs.com/review/ersa_icon/Note that ruler is in centimeters, not inches (pic from xdevs review):

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 11:11:04 pm
content: My Ersa i-Con 2V with the regular tool was EUR370 net when I bought it in 2018, which is pretty reasonable. Now it's 420 net.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 11:51:24 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on February 21, 2020, 05:48:36 pmSo you’re comparing a garbage grade station with a top brand fire stick and somehow thinking you’ve drawn a valid conclusion therefrom.Try a real soldering station and then come back.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 12:14:51 am
content: For some reason those Ersa images won't load. Ersas are good stations but there are a few things new players need to know going in. They use a tip/heater system a with screw on collar, though they out perform the majority of the stations out there they also have less accurate regulation which is the downside of that extra performance. Comparatively Metcal, JBC and Pace cartridge based stations also have great performance, are faster heating and easier to swap tips on. Plus Metcal and Pace are both accurate regulating and calibration free.With Ersa and Hakko you can buy extra collars/sleeves to make swapping tips a bit more efficient, but there is just no reason to with cartridge based stations. Both Ersa and Pace have relatively cheaper tips in comparison to most cartridge based stations. Though it's promoted as a benefit, in my opinion having any complex circuitry in the handpiece can be a double edged sword when it comes to reliability.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 11:09:34 am
content: Quote from: Shock on February 22, 2020, 12:14:51 amOn what do you base that claim? I've seen no evidence whatsoever of them having poor regulation, and note that all of the i-Con stations have three selectable "power" settings, which are really the aggressiveness setting, letting you choose between very aggressive heating with larger overshoot, conservative heating with no overshoot, or the default middle setting which has very minor overshoot.The Ersa system is basically a very precision-engineered and manufactured "traditional" tip/heater system, such that despite being separate tip/heater, the thermal coupling is so good that it gets you 90% of the way to a cartridge system. (I mean, a Hakko tip/heater iron takes 40 seconds to heat up, the Ersa takes 9, far closer to the 5 secs of a cartridge system than not.)Quote from: Shock on February 22, 2020, 12:14:51 amNo doubt the cartridge systems are superior. In a way, I'm surprised Ersa hasn't released a cartridge system that's compatible with the i-Con series, either by replacing the whole handle, or by replacing the heater (which itself is socketed) with a socket adapter to accept cartridges.Quote from: Shock on February 22, 2020, 12:14:51 amThe Ersa collars are a pain in the butt, insofar as they snap onto a tip very snugly, so you really have no choice but to get one sleeve per tip. At least you can reuse it if you ever need to replace a worn out tip like-for-like. On the bright side, the Ersa collars don't get hot, so you can swap hot tips without any kind of tool.Quote from: Shock on February 22, 2020, 12:14:51 amYes. Though I find it curious that Pace is able to sell many tip geometries at FAR lower cost than Ersa, despite being cartridges!! For example, while a standard chisel tip for either one is about $11, the drag soldering tips (Ersa MiniWell, Pace MiniWave) differ massively, with Pace still charging something like $11, compared to $35 for Ersa.Quote from: Shock on February 22, 2020, 12:14:51 amWell, has it actually proven to be a reliability liability? Your logic is absolutely correct in theory, but in practice, it could be totally fine.For sure, I haven't heard of Ersa handles being unusually failure-prone, and to the best of my knowledge, they're the most electronically complex ones on the market (ignoring the TS100/TS80), containing an Atmel Mega88 MCU and a MEMS accelerometer. (Since the Ersa stores the tip calibration in the handle itself, I assume the MCU is responsible for both interpreting the accelerometer as well as using its internal EEPROM for the calibration constants.) They're potted and contain no electrolytics, so quite likely to be very durable even long term.this posthas a teardown.For what it's worth, if I were going to buy a new station today, I'd buy a Pace instead of an Ersa, thanks to the ADS200 being so affordable. But it's also fair to say that I'm not dissatisfied with my Ersa i-Con nano, it's performed very well. My three big gripes are 1) the non-backlit LCD, 2) the up/down buttons instead of a knob (and inability to have both presets AND arbitrary temperature*), and 3) the poor availability of Ersa tips in Switzerland. But the first two would have been eliminated if I'd gotten a more expensive i-Con model, and the third isn't a deficiency in the design. (Pace doesn't have much in the way of local distribution here, either, but since Farnell carries them, it's easy to order from abroad without nasty customs surprises. Ersa, on the other hand, blocked Amazon and others from selling to Switzerland...)*on the i-Con nano and pico, you can use a microSD card to configure the station to use the up/down buttons toeitherlet you set a temperature,orto switch between three presets that you predefine via the SD card. But there's no way to have presets that you can override if needed. The SD card is also how you configure the power (aggressiveness) setting, the setback and sleep timers, etc.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 02:48:55 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 14, 2020, 09:44:10 pmSame here, but they were choosen for production work. The main reason was: fixed temperature. They had noticed that some production people tended to set higher temperatures than what was specificied in the procedures (out of habit or because they thought soldering was a bit "easier" this way), so stations in which temperature was not settable was seen as a bonus.We ended up with a couple extra stations for prototyping as part of the deal, and for that use, I never saw the benefit compared to Weller, Ersa or JBC either.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 03:05:52 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 22, 2020, 11:09:34 amTemp for temp the difference in performance between the Pace and Ersa is likely marginal. I like some of the Ersa features like the heating profiles and the accelerometer. But if someone was considering the two I think it's important to understand the differences, also gives me something to do when I'm bored and that is most important.I was paraphrasing before but essentially we were talking about the same thing, less accurate regulation on it's faster profile causing overshooting, I've no doubt it eventually settles accurately.No proof that the Ersa circuit is going to fail faster compared to a hot swap cartridge handpiece with no circuitry but my gut instinct is usually correct. Like I said it's a double edged sword, according to them it's a benefit but I think it's unnecessary and more than likely a detriment.Speaking of subjecture, there is the possibility the Ersa powerwell tip is licensed. Not 100% sure but I had the feeling that Hakko was licensing theirs in the past, they weren't selling it on the US market. If they aren't licensing their tips it's hard to justify that price, in reality they are probably knocking them out for a few dollars each. Hakko seems to have been able to export genuine T18 tips and sell them for $5 retail.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 03:29:41 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on February 22, 2020, 03:05:52 pmBut in that case, you should make sure that you are describing them correctly. Your earlier post made it sound as though Ersa is incapable of accurate regulation, which is plainly untrue.Quote from: Shock on February 22, 2020, 03:05:52 pmThis I understand very well!Quote from: Shock on February 22, 2020, 03:05:52 pmBut the aggressive profile is not enabled by default. (You did not qualify your initial claim by stating the use of that non-default mode.) In my experience using the default profile, the only real overshoot is on initial turn-on when using fatter tips. (And since they're still not especially large-mass tips, they recover downward quickly, long before you're ready to make a joint.) During use, it rarely overshoots by more than a few degrees. From what I know of other brands, this is very typical behavior and provides a nice balance between responsiveness and thermal process safety.Quote from: Shock on February 22, 2020, 03:05:52 pmI don't see any reason to assume it'd fail any sooner than the MCUs in the base stations themselves, which have been a staple of soldering stations for decades now, without longevity problems.Quote from: Shock on February 22, 2020, 03:05:52 pmDo you mean conjecture?I dunno, I have no idea what the patenting is like. It's just curious that with Pace and JBC, they charge the same amount for a basic chisel or pencil as for the drag soldering tip ($11-13 for Pace, $35 for JBC), while Ersa spans a wide price range for those same options. Just bizarre. I doubt that there are any remaining patents on this type of tip, given how long they've been around.As for them costing a few bucks to make: if Pace can manufacture theircartridgetips in USA and have a retail price of $11, then their wholesale price is likely $8, and the cost to manufacture likely $5. So Ersa has no excuse for charging so much for that tip style. (Nor does JBC have any excuse for charging so much for all their tips!)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 03:49:38 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on February 22, 2020, 12:14:51 amMore like ERSA shows actual tip temperature because temperature sensor is located so close to a tip edge and is not affected by heater while other stations happily don't report true tip temperature.QuoteThey are not heating faster than Ersa. JBC beats it only with tiniest cartridges with T210 handle, their 2 second heating claim is misleading and doesn't apply to T245 handle/cartridges. Pace does not beat it at all. BTW JBC overshoots a lot, despite they make you believe otherwise. Their stations are very good but their marketing is "dodgy" at best.QuoteMy oldest i-con is 11 years old and works just fine. I estimate over 200k solder joints done with it. I've seen people writing about triac and rare heater failures but electronics failure inside handpiece is something unheard of.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 04:12:29 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 22, 2020, 03:49:38 pmVERY good point!!!One thing I very much like about my Ersa is that it has dual display, a little one for the set temp, and the big one for the actual temp. (And a little bar graph showing how much energy it's pumping into the tip.)Quote from: wraper on February 22, 2020, 03:49:38 pmNo? I have a JBC with T245 at work, and it definitely is faster than my i-Con nano at home (which is slightly less powerful than the "big" i-Con stations, despite using the exact same heater, since it runs it at a lower voltage). It's definitely not 2 seconds, but it's definitely less than the Ersa.Quote from: wraper on February 22, 2020, 03:49:38 pmI've never used a Pace, but it can't possibly be worse than the Ersa, given the cartridge system, can it? Have you had a chance to actually try modern Pace hands-on?Quote from: wraper on February 22, 2020, 03:49:38 pmThis I believe. I definitely get the feeling that they overshoot. (I can't know for sure, since the unit I have at work doesn't have a temp display.)I'd love to see Dave's take on the Ersas, since he could compare them head-on with JBC and Pace, but they refuse to provide him a review unit without unreasonable review conditions. Pity, since I suspect they'd have gotten tons of sales out of an honest review.One maddening thing about Ersa is their power ratings. The i-Con 1 station is, depending on which Ersa document you look at, 80W, 120W, or 150W. My i-Con nano is either 68W or 80W depending on where you look. No other soldering vendor I've seen has this kind of confusion. (My best interpretation is that it's a 150W-capable heating element, with a power supply capable of 80W continuous/120W peak on the i-Con 1, or 68W continuous/80W peak on the nano. To my best knowledge, no i-Con station model ever drives the heater at 150W, despite Ersa plastering the 150W iron rating all over the place.)Quote from: wraper on February 22, 2020, 03:49:38 pmYeah, the triac failure seems to be the most common failure in the i-Con 1. Easy fix, at least!I haven't heard of it failing in other i-Con models, so maybe they've resolved whatever caused the triac to fail.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 04:17:23 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 22, 2020, 04:12:29 pmIt's not slightly less powerful. While heater is the same, it's powered from 16.5V instead of 24V, which means it's peak power is only 47% of full-blown i-CON.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 04:33:38 pm
content: Quote150W is peak power of heating element. Heater resistance is 3.4 Ohm so actually it's more like 170W @ 24V. AFAIK 80W continuous is for i-CON, I-CON1, 120W for I-CON2. According to my calculations 68W peak power for Nano compared with full-blown I-con (Or 80W @ 16.5V considering actual heater resistance) sounds about right.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 04:40:49 pm
content: I just checked and 2.4 mm chisel reaches 350oC from room temperature in 6 seconds (high power setting). Thin conical tips likely will be be a bit faster.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 05:01:32 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 22, 2020, 04:17:23 pmYeah, in theory, but it seems that Ersa never drives the heaters at full power onanymodel, which is why they specify them all as 9-second heatup to 350C on the default power. The big i-Con stations are rated as 80W continuous, vs. 68W continuous on the nano, and that is IMHO a fairly small difference.Quote from: wraper on February 22, 2020, 04:33:38 pmThe 120W continuous is for both tools, and it retains the 150W peak.Ersa says 80W peak for the nano, 68Wcontinuous.Regardless, this discussion merely proves my actual pointperfectly: Ersa is clear as mud regarding its power ratings.Quote from: wraper on February 22, 2020, 04:40:49 pmAlas, I no longer have a working Windows computer or VM at home, so I can't access the program for changing my nano's power setting to see how it compares on the high power setting.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 05:08:02 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 22, 2020, 05:01:32 pmContinuous power is not worth a dime since heating always happens in peaks unless you are doing something wrong.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 05:54:24 pm
content: Yeah, that's true.My hunch is that regardless of which model, the actual maximum power is being restricted by the algorithm more than the hardware, given that they heat at the same speed despite having different available power.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 06:00:30 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 22, 2020, 05:54:24 pmThey certainly don't. Nano delivers power as medium setting at best. I've seen some videos on youtube and there is a big difference when using bigger tips and soldering something heavy.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 06:24:20 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 22, 2020, 06:00:30 pmSo Ersa is lying when they spec both at 9 seconds?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 06:25:27 pm
content: If so, then it (for the third time) proves myactual pointperfectly: Ersa is clear as mud regarding its power ratings.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 06:29:22 pm
content: I'm also still curious as to your answers to these questions:Quote from: tooki on February 22, 2020, 04:12:29 pmNote that these questions were not posed as challenges, I am genuinely curious.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 06:47:38 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 22, 2020, 06:25:27 pmMy older i-tools (with grey rubber grip) have "150 24V written on them. Without "W", LOL. I have newer spare i-tool which is fully black and it does not have it, but there is 24V 150 on the box.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 03:49:49 am
content: Ok so is the consensus here cartridge tips, even low end ones like the T12 clones, always perform better than separate heater and tip? I don't care about startup time, only the ability to do big joints without high temperature.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 04:26:50 am
content: Quote from: OwO on February 23, 2020, 03:49:49 amNo they don't, and especially clones. Say even genuine HAKKO T12 won't beat ERSA and is way worse in aspects as handle and tip to grip distance. Although it's true than in general cartridge systems mean very good performance.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 06:05:27 am
content: Ersa are the exception to tip/heater stations. JBC did a performance comparison in 2009, gives you an idea of handpieces they tested at the time including Hakko. On page 8 though the JBC mysteriously lost it's overshoot warming up from cold #conspiracy.The Hakko T12 is a bit of an underachiever cartridge of the bunch being that it's 70W. There is an upside in that genuine Hakko stations (and slower stations in general) tend to overshoot less. As mentioned already JBC and Ersa have profiles that overshoot, some models can however be slowed down in config to avoid this.T12 are not "high performance" style cartridges. JBC and Pace have cartridges with an extra mass surrounding the heater. It takes slightly longer to heat but improves soldering performance. Pace TD200 handpiece (ADS200 station) also takes standard tips as well but they are faster than the T12. Compared to most traditional tip/heater style stations though the T12 are considerably faster.At the end of the day you want as fast heating (quicker recovery) as good temperature regulation and as little overshoot as possible. Oh and have a cool running handpiece and a station that doesn't require calibrating.Anyway none of this matters if your soldering is shit, practice soldering.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 01:15:54 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on February 23, 2020, 06:05:27 amKeep in mind this comparison is a bit innovative with marketing BS. They compare JBC C245-011 (3mm chisel) with ERSA CDLF16 (1.6 mm chisel). Sounds fair, LOL.Others don't seem so blatant but there are some inconsistencies as well.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 01:47:52 pm
content: Like the fact that they tested some stations at 350C and others at 400C, and that the graphs use various different scales and offsets.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 04:18:53 am
content: That drives me nuts. Even an amateur should know that you need to compare apples to apples and have as few variables as possible between units in a given test. Anything else reeks of marketing BS.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 10:37:56 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on February 23, 2020, 06:05:27 amThe warm up time is similar though, 7s, so not a huge deal IMO.The difference between 2mm and 3mm tip appears massive (red trace). But I suspect there is too much variance from technique here to draw any certain conclusions.

author: galileo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 04:10:10 am
content: Those are induction heater irons, something like a temperature controlled Metcal but at a much lower frequency and no curie point tips.Looked at those a few years back when it became available but those are way to expensive around these parts.$50 is a steal, can't find anything in that price range on AliExpress and the selection is not that great.Quote from: OwO on February 21, 2020, 04:59:03 am

author: galileo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 04:22:15 am
content: Look at what repair technicians use, for example Louis Rossmann (search on youtube if you haven't seen his channel) uses a Hakko FX-951 (T12 cartridge) while some of his employees prefer JBC.No contest considering the price difference. His use case is pretty close to yours as all they do is Mac repairs and those multilayer boards sink heat like mad.Quote from: OwO on February 23, 2020, 03:49:49 am

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 06:43:42 am
content: Quote from: galileo on February 29, 2020, 04:22:15 amDon't encourage people to buy a Hakko FX-951 without checking out the Pace ADS200 (120W) it's better value and without the quirks of Hakko stations. Paces new aluminum handpiece is about the best thing going at the moment and have just released their new mini tweezers.

author: galileo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 04:30:04 pm
content: Not in the price range of most hobbyists while Hakko clones are fairly affordable.Quote from: Shock on February 29, 2020, 06:43:42 am

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 08:11:50 pm
content: A ADS200 is like $300. That's not very expensive imo.

author: galileo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 11:53:01 pm
content: Expensive is a relative term: 1/10th of minimum wage in CH VS more than 1/2 in most of SE Europe.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2020, 03:47:12 am
content: Living expenses are relative as well. I suggest if you are in poverty to avoid electronics unless you use it to earn an income. If you aren't in poverty and can save up money, life works exactly the same for the rest of us.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2020, 05:32:58 am
content: Quote from: galileo on February 29, 2020, 04:10:10 amOk that makes sense now. The tip fits very loosely but it does heat up fast.It's a 160W station and I can get close to the power limit when soldering big copper plates, so it looks like T12 wouldn't have done the job.I'm not convinced that the more expensive cartridge based stations offer much improvement over this, so for now I'll conclude that around $50 is the sweet spot for soldering stations if you spend the effort finding the right one (in china at least).In the future if I need more thermal performance I'll look for induction heating soldering stations using tips with a bigger stem diameter, as this is the final bottleneck to thermal conduction. There is probably good reason all the soldering stations marketed for "high rate" use (production use) here are now all induction based.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2020, 10:37:23 am
content: It sounds like you have a Quick, Bakon or Yihua if it takes 500M tips, but you haven't told us which model and where you brought it from. All we know is it's ~50C out of calibration and has a 70mm working distance.How fast does yours heat from a totally cold tip? If it's anything like the Yihua 950 it seems designed for soldering large joints and not fine SMD work or dual purpose. This video shows heating taking 28 seconds.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2020, 11:16:40 am
content: This one:https://item.jd.com/51024494922.html#crumb-wrapI just timed it at exactly 20 seconds from cold.It depends on the tip you use; I prefer the "sanded conical tip" for SMD soldering because it can get right to the edge of QFNs and also transfer heat quickly to ground planes (I can't usually do thermal relief on my boards):For soldering SMA connectors I use this one:I've found it works well for "drag soldering" as well if you place the edge of the tip across all QFP pins and drag outwards. Removes bridges really easily.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2020, 01:24:06 pm
content: Quote from: OwO on March 01, 2020, 11:16:40 amThe working distance is 94mm according to their own photo. Better value than T12 clones and looks more suitable for high thermal mass work. Has a stand and real transformer which is a bonus, hopefully it's safer.It's not going to be better for fine SMD than the T12. The tip swapping, selection of tips and working distance on this station are its weaknesses. I've seen similar tips before on something like a Weller PES51, can't remember which exact model.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2020, 02:02:53 pm
content: https://m.tb.cn/h.V3SzosI?sm=8fad6eI have one of this as well as a Quick205, so far no chance to stress test them.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2020, 03:04:33 pm
content: When discussing a soldering station's temperature overshoot we should consider the complete picture, and not just the iron's tip. There's also the thermal mass of the PCB (pad/track/plane and PCB itself), component and solder. From my experience I'd say that some overshoot helps with soldering, especially when the heat is sucked away by the PCB or a large component, e.g. metal connector.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 01, 2020, 03:42:44 pm
content: Quote from: OwO on March 01, 2020, 11:16:40 amI don't think whats's on the display is the real tip temperature, especially during heat-up. Also Zhaoxin is a company producing a lot of crap. For example linear PSUs which contain fake 2N3055 transistors with tiny die.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2020, 05:37:00 pm
content: So I discovered I can get it to display sensed temperature by quickly switching to a lower temperature, and doing that I see 20C of overshoot on startup. There doesn't seem to be an overshoot after a big soldering though, and it seems to use some form of proportional-derivative control, because I can see it reduce power a few seconds before the temperature has fully returned to set temperature.As for working distance, I'm gripping it at the second nut to get shorter working distanceas that part doesn't get warm (the first nut does get hot so I can't grip it there).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2020, 05:46:27 pm
content: Quote from: galileo on February 29, 2020, 04:30:04 pmHewasn'trecommending it as an alternative to the Hakkoclones, he was recommending it as an alternative to therealFX-951. And compared tothat, the ADS200 is killer.Quote from: galileo on February 29, 2020, 11:53:01 pmWhile your point is true (though obvious), just as an FYI,Switzerland does not actually have a minimum wage.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 12:51:22 am
content: Quote from: OwO on March 01, 2020, 05:37:00 pmJust because you hold it by the nut it doesn't shave 24mm off the working distance heheh, but I think you already know that.Quote from: blueskull on March 01, 2020, 05:28:08 pmIt's $200 cheaper than itself, it defies the laws of accounting! That is a saving of 400% of profit right there.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 03:27:26 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on March 01, 2020, 06:41:20 pmOne advantage of the older handpieces is it's easier to play Pokemon and get bunch of tips together cheaply on ebay. Or you could just do what Mike does and collect stations instead.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 07:12:56 am
content: But interestingly, the tips for that station are way more expensive than the cartridge tips for the ADS200!!Edit: never mind! There was no indication anywhere I had looked that the prices were for 5-packs! That takes them from expensive to positively cheap!Admittedly, that thing is hella cool. The dremel with continuity tester through the tip to apply the brake when you hit the trace you’re digging out, that’s just neat.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 11:32:58 am
content: Quote from: tooki on March 02, 2020, 07:12:56 amMany of the PS90 style soldering tips and SX80/90/100 vacuum desoldering tips come in packs of 5 so if you look for a good price they work out to be typically around $5-8 each. On Paces part numbers they have -P1 and -P5 which tells you if it's a single or a 5 pack.Some of the less common rework tips and nozzles are going to be more expensive than others but they also sell a vacuum desoldering tip sample kit 6993-0288-P1 of 8 tips for around $60. Since Pace vacuum desoldering tips are a one piece design, even if you had an impossible blockage you can just swap to another tip. So in the scheme of things not expensive to run for all the basic tips.Quote from: tooki on March 02, 2020, 07:12:56 amI admire anyone with the courage to fully set one up with all the 9 handpieces and a complete range of tips for home use. The divorce is strong in this one.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 03:39:26 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on March 02, 2020, 11:32:58 amOH! I had no idea! I was looking on tequipment, and nowhere do they (or the datasheets!!) mention that they’re in 5-packs! That indeed completely changes the equation!!!! Cause I thought $35 for a simple chisel tip was outrageous, but for 5 it’s peanuts!!Quote from: Shock on March 02, 2020, 11:32:58 amYeah that makes sense!!Quote from: Shock on March 02, 2020, 11:32:58 amHeheheheh. Never mind having six of them!But yeah, if those things really can be had for a few hundred bucks used, then it’s a steal.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 04:13:02 pm
content: I think I didn't make myself clear earlier. Your Lab iron that has good temperature control should do more than soldering. Swordmanship counts more than the sword.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 08:41:24 pm
content: QuoteOf course it is. The stations that fake this, they smoothly roll up to the set temp in 10 seconds, not 20.They won't be affected by the tip type, either.I had an X-tronic station that did this. After the display hits the set temp, wait another 10 seconds, and you're there.

author: galileo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 08:46:02 pm
content: So in the "first world" country after all your monthly expenses you are left with $300 and you buy a Pace. Meanwhile in the "third world" you are left with $30 and you save for 10 months to buy a Pace or yougo on AliExpress and buy a fake Hakko?Electronics is not for the poor, right on.Quote from: Shock on March 01, 2020, 03:47:12 am

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 08:54:17 pm
content: The irony is that in the US, we can buy a real Hakko 888 for $120 delivered, all day, every day. Genuine tips for $5.00. Way better in many (not all) ways than any T12 clone I have ever used.For construction/fabrication tools, we also have Harbor Freight. You have no idea what a $20.00 bill can be traded for at Harbor Freight.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 09:18:41 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on March 02, 2020, 08:54:17 pmAs long as you do it quickly, so you survive the toxic smell.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 11:32:59 pm
content: Quote from: all_repair on March 01, 2020, 02:02:53 pmomg that video, dude heats up the iron then grabs the tip with his bare hand, sets the iron to 822 C and it turns red hot, then attaches an absolutely massive T12 tip

author: galileo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 12:04:29 am
content: Try the "bolt test", if it passes you are goldenT12 cartridge is around 70W (if I remember correctly) so it probably would not be as powerful as that one. Keep in mind that it is notactually delivering 160W into the work piece. Lower frequency (KHz range) RF heating is not that efficient. One of the reasons why that metcal in the linked videosolders a bolt with "only" 40W. They are heating the tip with 13.5MHz. Metcal patents are an interesting read, they claim something like 90% efficiency.If you don't mind the fairly large "tip to handle" distance it will probably be all you will ever need.When soldering copper sheets (for enclosures etc) I just use a 220V AC "rain gutters" ironQuote from: OwO on March 01, 2020, 05:32:58 am

author: galileo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 12:12:00 am
content: Hakko is not a very well known brand in Europe and quite a bit more expensive than in USA.Funny thing: most people around these parts have newer heard of Hakko and when mentioned most thinkthat it is some Chinese brand but 90% of them use Hakko clonesWhat did you find about T12 clones that was inferior compared to Hakko 888?Quote from: KL27x on March 02, 2020, 08:54:17 pm

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 12:20:32 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on March 02, 2020, 09:18:41 pmThat's the smell of stuff from Ali Baba or eBay China gear that goes directly into the retail bag & box right off the manufacturing line.HF is 9 cuts above that crap. If they sold bottom dollar junk without any QA, they'd go broke due to their warranty policy just from the shipping. So you don't get that direct whiff of Shenzen with HF stuff, IME.

author: galileo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 12:23:27 am
content: Quote from: tooki on March 01, 2020, 05:46:27 pmThat is interesting, I was told that no one gets less than ~2K CHF on any full time job so I just presumed that is the minimum wage.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 01:17:34 am
content: Quote from: galileo on March 03, 2020, 12:23:27 amAnd 2K is considered abusively low. Switzerland's salaries on the high end aren't thaaaat much higher than other developed countries, but on the low end, FAR better. Consider Lidl, the discount grocery chain: they pay their employees in Switzerland CHF 4100 and up. (Admittedly, above average for grocery workers here.) In USA (where I am originally from), Lidl also pays above average for its industry: $2080 (for full time, assuming you can even get a full-time position…)It's very interesting to me that Switzerland manages to have great wages without needing to legislate it. And the economy and society reflect the fact that nobody here is at risk of imminent financial ruin, in that there is both economic and social stability. (In USA, in contrast, the majority of Americans are one missing paycheck away from being broke, and contrary to popular stereotype, it's not because of irresponsible spending, but because they plain and simply do not make enough money to be able to save.)

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 01:36:36 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on March 02, 2020, 11:32:59 pmI was suspicable but video does not look fake. I just tried it, holding the 2section is quite OK (not the first section).Able to set to as low as 100C can be useful when you want to remove glue, or to solder adhesive ribbon.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 01:49:29 am
content: Quote from: tooki on March 03, 2020, 01:17:34 amThey look great until you consider this:https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=SwitzerlandSo maybe knock the number down 30-40%, but yes even after that, the wages still are very good.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 07:00:55 am
content: Quote from: galileo on March 03, 2020, 12:12:00 amThe T12 clones I have used have temp sag. This is barely noticeable on most 2 layer stuff, to be fair. But I noticed, because I do production soldering. And the higher the heatsinking of the board, the worse the sag. This isn't a big deal for most people; I am pretty particular, though, about my temps, and I found I was needing to adjust the temp more often on the T12 clones vs 888, and running higher set temps to do the same jobs.I only tried two cheap clones, one on the very vocal recommendation of a member who assured me it blows away any "obsolete 936/888 technology." Maybe the fancy ones actually do proper compensation for the sensor arrangement; and just because there's a microcontroller in there, that is no guarantee it is doing this.There are many other reasons I prefer the 888, but I won't go into too much detail, because they are my own personal preference. Tip selection, ergos, stand, stuff like that. If you can't buy an 888 for $100.00, then don't worry about it. T12 clones are pretty darn good for the money. And cheap 936 clones I have used are way inferior to a genuine 888. I would probably prefer the cheap T12 clone vs cheap 936 clone. But I don't have to limit myself to those two choices.T12 has advantages, of course. I just don't care about any of them; they don't do anything for me. For most folks, the fast warmup time and the shorter tip to grip and quicker change of tips might be great. For a production solderer, the most of your time you care about is the actual active soldering. When my iron comes out of the stand, I will be making 30-100 joints, maybe, before it goes back in. I am also only ever going to see the very tip of the iron in my microscope, so that nice slender/sexy (and light and flexy) T12 cartridge shaft doesn't do anything for me.I also don't care too much that one of my T12 tips self-destructed while changing tips. The contact ripped off. When a T18 tip goes bad, it is a gradual event and a matter of degree; it can be finessed back to working and replaced without a fuss, in stride. I don't want to need an assortment of backup tips on hand. This particular squirrel already has way more acorns buried than he can remember where they are. I'm sure that was a freak accident. But I have been using an 888 since at least 2012 without any kind of issue, at all.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 06:57:41 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on March 03, 2020, 01:49:29 amAs an American who’s lived in Switzerland for a total of 18 years, and about the same in USA, and who visits USA regularly, I can say with a high degree of confidence that that website has a lot of outdated data, on both sides. In the past 11 years, I’ve seen prices in USA go up dramatically for many things, and actually go down in Switzerland. Telecom for example: first of all, neither USA nor Switzerland are countries where prepaid comes close to giving the best rates. They’re both plan-based countries. And I pay WAAAAY less than in USA: I pay $35/mo for unlimitedeverything(with no caps in the fine print) both within and to Switzerland, Europe, and USA, including long distance and roaming. In USA $35 gets you unlimited voice and text, but just a few GB of data, and no roaming.What comparisons like that don’t really consider either is things like the fact that the quality of housing here is WAY better, or that health insurance premiums not only cost far less here, but cover more. Or that you have more vacation days. There are tons of thing that are real cost savings not reflected in simple shopping baskets.There’s no question that Switzerland is more expensive for most things, but the price difference in absolute numbers between USA and Switzerland has shrunk a lot over the years. In terms of purchasing power and disposable income, there’s really no contest, between much higher wages, many lower major expenses, and low taxes here.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2020, 10:48:01 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on February 21, 2020, 06:36:02 pmThey are back trading again although just online.