Learn EE at university - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: coodoo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 10:53:45 pm
content: Hello,I'm a EE strudent at a local university in Hungary. Now i finished the 3. semester (only some exams left). On the last Electronics II lecture we learned the astable multivibrator (as a "very complex circuit"). I think we studied only a very few useful things. (This is 7 semester long BSc)(I also learned electronics at secondary school, and this is my hobby so i do lot of things...)I think there are a lot of EE students here, I would like to ask from you: what useful things do/did you study/learn at your university? This univeristy is bad or this is same at other universities?Our curses (I translated the names of courses so it may wrong):Semester 1:- Digital technics 1 (logic gates, Karnaugh map)- Mathematics 1 (vectors, complex numbers, matrixes, integration, derivation, gauss elimination)- Informatics 1 (number base 2, 16, some unix command, some SQL)- Materials (this probably wrong name) (electron configuration, conductors/semiconductors/insulators, plastics, glasses, metals)- Electrotechnics 1 (DC, R, L, C, parallel/serial, superposition, node voltage, branc current method)- Economy 1 (this also probably wrong) (banks, money etc...)Semester 2:- Digital technics 2 (flip-flops, synchron/asynchron counters)- Mathematics 2 (Taylor, Fourier series, laplace transform, a little differential equations)- Electrotechnics 2 (AC, Bode, Nyquist plot)- Economy 2 (somthing boring)- Programming 1 (C programming language on PC)- Electronics 1 (diode, transistor, common emitter amplifier, operational aplifier(inverting, non-inverting))- Measurement technology 1 (how to measure voltage and current with a 30 years old analog multimetert with horrible internal resistance)Semester 3:- Programming 2 (C and assembly on AVR)- Electronics 2 (operational aplifier(integrator, derivator), multivibrators, RC oscillator)- Measurement technology 2 (measure: C,L, 2/4 wire resistance, frequency, RPM, Strain gauge)- Telecommunication (maybe wrong name) (AM/FM modulation, PSK, QAM with a lot of matlab without any circuit)- Automation (maybe wrong name) (a little open/closed loop control only with matlab)- Power Systems (maybe wrong name) (high voltage cables, power plants, etc)Sorry for my poor English.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:02:40 pm
content: your english is fine. looks similar to the EE program here.except here, we have a general (2 semester) year with statics, dynamics,2 courses of basic chemistry, 2 courses of calculus, intro linear algebra, intro programming and one option (out of a list of junk from the faculty of art)after that general year, GPAs are used to qualify people for specializations (electrical, mechanical, chemical, materials, etc.) which is 3 more years (6 semesters), after which you get a BSc in ______ Engineering, with a possible subspecialty (nanotech, polymer, biomedical, etc.)

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:10:55 pm
content: Looks pretty normal to me. I never understood why they insisted on forcing us to take Economics. I could have read everything I learned in those clases from reading a book in a week. For most engineers its disinteresting, tedious and plain boring. A class in budgeting and accountancy would have been far more useful.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:44:50 pm
content: I think they should cover some more engineering specific topics in economics. For example, using two 10k resistors instead of a single 4.7k (where the exact value is not critical) costs more in materials, but can make for an overall savings through reduced costs in inventory management and assembly. And that in the production environment, time is not even close to "free"...I also don't see power electronics (switching power supplies, inverters, etc.) unless it's lumped into power systems.

author: coodoo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:52:16 am
content: We didn't learned power electronics yet, on Electronics 2 they mentioned the MOSFET, IGBT, triac exists and theirA-Uvoltage-current characteristics, but without any "real world" example or circuit. There is a power electronics course only at one specialization.(We can choose from five specializations:- Automation (how to program robotic arms, CNC)- Communication Engineering (mostly computer networks)- Instrumentation and Automation (microcontrollers)- Microelectronics and Technology (sensors and lighting)- Power Systems (power plants, high-voltage))They didn't said anything about switching-mode power supplies, more powerful microcontrollers(32bit ARM/MIPS/etc.), DSP, FPGA/CPLD, high-frequency circuits or PCB design, design for manufacturing, filter design, AD/DA conversion, signal conditioning, etc...On the next semester we will have a "technology" course, on that we will design and make a PCB, but only a LED blinker with 2-3mm width traces. BUT i think anybody can design that.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 07:10:59 am
content: Power electronics was a separate specialization when I studied.There are a few things maybe no one has told you until now. Studying is not just about learning the material they present to you. That is a given, because you need it (and more) to pass the exams. But that material is also just random training material so you can learn to learn. It doesn't matter so much what it is (with exceptions), it is just like Monopoly Moneyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_moneythey give you so you can play around. What you are supposed to be able to do later is to quickly pick up a subject you are not familiar with and you maybe even don't like, and get up to speed in reasonable time on your own. Because that happens regularly in an engineering job.The exceptions are the basics. Math, physics (your material science stuff), etc. These form the (hopefully) solid base from which you can then hopefully quickly learn new stuff. Your courses seem to focus a lot on basics until now. IMHO not a bad thing.Also, don't fall into the trap that once you had a course about X you know everything about X. You don't. Sometimes students learn this quickly the hard way when they figure out that the course about X wasn't sufficient to pass the exam about X. If that happens you didn't realize that it is up to you to learn about X from every possible source, not just from the course about X.And finally - this always makes people angry, but it is the sad truth - professors don't really teach. They just show you (parts of) what you need to know about a subject. Not more. It is up to you to learn it in any way you can, from whatever resource it takes. E.g. by visiting the library, reading books, etc.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 03:59:35 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on December 31, 2013, 07:10:59 amAmusing! You just summarized how crippled the "formal" academic teaching system is.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 09:56:20 pm
content: In summary, only take university classes for the degree. If you really want to learn, research it yourself and/or actually build stuff.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 09:57:52 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 31, 2013, 09:56:20 pmso very true.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 10:45:16 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on December 31, 2013, 07:10:59 amQuote from: NiHaoMike on December 31, 2013, 09:56:20 pm+1 IMHO.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 12:07:12 am
content: Quote from: Fsck on December 31, 2013, 09:57:52 pmAgreed, to a point. By all means as you find time, learn as much as you can (by practical hands on doing) outside the prescribed curriculum. What is learnt will often be of benefit to your degree and to your career.However, the most valuable lesson in engineering in my opinion is control theory. As boring as it is for some, it is a valuable concept to understand. A good engineer uses feedback not just in software or hardware design, but in designing business processes - and even in personal relationships and running your own finances.A person who becomes an electronics engineer primarily for money or cultural reasons like saving face for their family is of little value compared to someone who lives and breathes electronics and is fascinated by it. Before I hire an electronics engineer, I weed out the conscripts from the volunteers. There is a saying that one volunteer is worth ten conscripts. Furthermore, the best engineers are those who never stop learning the art throughout their lives and to do this they often have to learn outside their workplace.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 12:15:12 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on January 01, 2014, 12:07:12 amOK, I'm not actually an engineer yet, so my opinion doesn't matter very much here... but I'm going to have to give you a big ol' +1 for this.I've not taken CT yet, but I just finished "Signals and Systems" (basically CT's "precalculus") and then went through the CT text by myself, and I have to say, I have never learned so much useful information as when I was in S&S and when I was reading the CT textbook.And on boredom - if you can't push through a couple measly little "boring" math classes, you're going to have real trouble pushing through anything difficult you encounter on the job.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 12:42:15 am
content: Best thing I can suggest that should be a part of everything: Build your own power supply.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 03:23:17 am
content: Quote from: Tinkerer on January 01, 2014, 12:42:15 amI would suggest build your own test equipment, multimeter, voltmeter, ammeter, ohmmeter, a device to measure inductance, op-amp parameters, ...etc.A thorough understanding of test equipments and how they work is very important. Stay away from Arduino, DevKits, LEDs, Lego Bots, and other toys...unless you want to work as a sales representative.Be creative and don't copy projects.

author: coodoo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 04:34:02 am
content: Quote from: Bored@WorkBut if it is random, why don't they present more useful material?Quote from: NiHaoMikeBut I only have a very small free time, when I can build anything, because we have a lot of (I think) useless courses... (The previous 2 semester aren't so bad like this.)Quote from: VK3DRBI think it's interesting (I watched some videos on youtube), but at university we only do some exercise like attached image (control.png). But they didn't mention how can I get the transfer function of a real system.Quote from: c4757pWe don't have "Signals and Systems" (or similar name) course. On math learned about Fourier, Laplace transformation. On "Automation" we learned about the "base parts" (this is probably wrong name): P, D, I, transfer functions, bode plots etc, but nothing about how to use/realize them (alaptagok.png).Quote from: IntegratedValveI think this is good, and I do it if I can, but it's very slow (I have to search a lot on internet and my English is not so good). If I would like to build something, then I have to learn how it works and how can I protect it (over voltage/current protection, ESD) etc... For example I heard the input protection of multimeter (MOVs, special fuses) firstly from Dave. (http://www.eevblog.com/2012/10/19/eevblog-373-multimeter-input-protection-tutorial/). Or If I would like to measure 3-5-10 volts, it's easy, anybody can do that if read the "ardunio how to measure voltage" tutorial, but if I would like to measure very small/high voltages, or some sensors with high output impedance, it's not so easy, and there is much less information on the internet. Or if I would like to measure the supply current of a small low-power microcontroller (i think micro-amperes or smaller)...I with some of my friends build "robots" for alocal robot competition, and we do some projects to the "TDK" (Scientific Students' Associations ) at our university. But this is a lot of time and money, and we don't have very much any of them.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 09:59:40 am
content: Quote from: Fsck on December 31, 2013, 09:57:52 pmNo, to learn how to learn. Under some mild pressure. The pressure later in your job can be much higher, and you will be grateful that you were allowed to hon your skills for a few years in a protective setup.And to learn the basics. Exactly what these google-"learners" miss.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 10:09:54 am
content: Quote from: coodoo on January 01, 2014, 04:34:02 amWhat is not useful for one might be useful for someone else. You can't please everyone. Also note that as a student, despite what you think, you don't have the experience to seriously discern what is useful and what not. And once you have a job in the industry you still can't completely judge, because there are so many different engineering jobs, requiring very different knowledge.And there is also the case that other stuff you might think is really, really useful might be to difficult for you. Also, creating course material is a lot of work. If you teach to people who anyhow not appreciate what you do you might just stick with the material you have, instead of wasting your time creating something new.

author: coodoo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 09:24:51 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@WorkThis is true, but i think there are exceptions. For example we have to learn the block diagram and the principle of operation of theanalog storage oscilloscope(not the digital storage with simple CRT!). Did anybody use that type oscilloscope?Quote from: Bored@WorkWe have a guide written in 1970 on one lab, we only do about 4-5 exercise from >50, because the university don't have so old equipment/instrument. (The university don't have a lot of new things. For example I think it only have 1-2 DPOs)

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 09:26:16 pm
content: QuoteAnd then:QuoteI find both statements very contradicting to each other.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 09:28:03 pm
content: I don't."Students don't know what they need to learn""Professors show them what to learn, and then they need to go learn it"Contradiction? Where?

author: Kjetil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 09:44:04 pm
content: This is the curriculums for the two main EE-related courses (B.Sc) at my college:Computer science and IAandElectrical power engineeringWe had a fresh foreign lecturer at my university college this year. After a month or so we got to what we call midterm evaluations here in Norway.The shock for him was that this wasn't an exam, it was us evaluating him and the class he was running (with the feedback being sent to the dean). This is done twice a year and for every class at the college.I believe what will characterize any university or college is how they treat their students. We are seen and treated as customers, and the very reason the institution actually exists, so they actively seek our feedback. But then again I guess that might be different in a country where going to college or uni for free (and comes with a scollarship for everyone) isn't a basic right given to everyone, and where people are just happy to get the chance.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 10:44:57 pm
content: Quote from: coodoo on January 01, 2014, 09:24:51 pmYou'll have to look hard to find someone still using such an oscilloscope in earnest. But ...Lets look at what you have learned - if you went through the exercise and didn't cheat. You learned how a non-trivial measurement instrument is composed of blocks, and how an analog signal is processed in multiple steps. You learned how to work through a complex system and see how it is decompose into simpler parts of which you can understand the principles. Depending on how the exercise was formulated, you maybe learned how to drill down from a block diagram, how to document / summarize your findings, juggle multiple principles and interactions in your head without going crazy. For all this it didn't really matter what instrument it was. And you have a reference to compare modern DSOs or classic analog oscilloscopes to, should you need / want to do so.QuoteFirst, old does not necessarily mean outdated. Ohm's law was published in 1827. It won't go away, even if you wish it wouldBut what is your actual complaint? You want to have a 10x higher workload, doing 50 instead of 5 excercises? Not enough old or not enough new instruments?Quote from: Kjetil on January 01, 2014, 09:44:04 pmBut you know the side effect this has? A teacher, having to make the decision to dumb a subject down so everyone feels good about it, or to present it completely and correctly, even if it is hard stuff, will dumb it down. Your "we are the customers" attitude in the end means that you get a good feeling, not a good education.Edit: Oh, and the reason the university exists aren't just the students. Research is another one.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 11:20:31 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on January 01, 2014, 09:28:03 pmWhen you cannot judge the course but at the same time you are supposed to learn and fill in the holes by yourself and only get guidance from your classes....I DO.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 11:29:38 pm
content: Quote from: Kjetil on January 01, 2014, 09:44:04 pmI've been to uni's where their student "assessment" lecturers and "opinion" are appreciated. But no they don't treat you like customers at all, and the proof they can simply tell a student to f**k off any time they screw with their cathedral system. They simply treat us like cash cows and what the instructor evaluation papers are a way to drug our unsatisifaction, especially they do it, at least where I went, just around final exams. No matter what you say you will see same teacha's around forever, and all evaluation paper shredder.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 11:37:45 pm
content: QuoteThen students should not only consider uni's for professional education. If I know my instructor priority is their research why should I bother with their classes?

author: kaindub
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 12:49:10 am
content: Its been many years since I went to university (colleg) and earned my bachelors in EEI agree with Bored@work. here's just a couple of random jottings of what i gor out of universityFirstly, there is an old saying. "You can't learn to swim by reading a book". Engineering is about doing things. You have to do the things to see if your design works. That's why dave and so many others on this forum emphasise the hands on work.(As an aside, the guy who topped my class had to build his finakl year thesis. His thesis was about Walsh filters and he did a lot on calculations - before the days on PCs mind you. The implementation of his design was the first thing he had ever built. Needless to say it looked like a rats nest. That also was the last thing he built as he was at university on anavy scholarship, and went on to captain bopts)Secondly, I still use what i learnt at university. Mind you we did not have Pcs, or matcad, or PC layout tools and heck, the biggest micor was 4 bit! But i was taught the baics priniples of analog and digital electronics; maths and programming. I was also taught how to use the knowledge that I had and to figure out a solution to my problem.That's the most valuable thing I took away from university.I have worked professionally in high voltage switchgear, power electronics, digital electronics. Its just volts and amps.The technical side of engineering changes completely every few years. If you know the basics you will be able to adapt. If you just know one programming language, ot Matcad etc then you will find it hard to adaptThe engineering field is very broad. The university cannot possibly teach you everything.Good luck. Its all fun.Robert

author: Kjetil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 06:31:55 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on January 01, 2014, 10:44:57 pmA teacher failing 50-70 % of a class which has the right qualifications to do the course is not a really good thing either. The main issue here is that most lecturers are engineers with practical experience, but only a very short course teaching. An engineer is very rarely good at teaching large groups of people effectively. Most of the feedback affect smaller issues, like for example how the presentation slides are laid out, and are not demands to make it easier.Research is in part carried out by the students, at least here, but could easily be performed at other institutions. Large-scale teaching is the definition of what a school is, and a college/university (which is basically the same here, just different size) can therefore exist without research, while a institution without students is called a research institution.Quote from: IntegratedValve on January 01, 2014, 11:29:38 pmWell, when cash and profit for the private inverstors isn't why the institution exists then things are differentI would say it is very different when you are used to this sort of evaluation from first grade and up, and used to seeing that feedback being taken into accont. This sort of evaluation is demanded by law in all educational institutions, as well as QA systems to ensure that the issues are followed up on. Of course some teachers are good at getting away from this, but most take it seriously.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 06:44:38 am
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on January 01, 2014, 11:37:45 pmIf you want to graduate, and that's the only professor that teaches it, you don't have a choice.Keep in mind, professors are required to teach, do research, and publish. It's usually a "pick two" situation based on discussions with a number of professors, so the lectures they're required tend to be hurried as the pressure of research and publishing are the proverbial monkey on their backs (and their job depends on this <hint: "Publish or Perish" axiom>, not the quality of instruction).There are exceptions, such as technical colleges that focus on teaching & may offer more hands-on learning as well. They also tend to be private rather than public here in the US, so on the expensive side, and there's still no guarantee of a better quality of education.Just to expand your perspective a bit.Personally, I like the idea of professors that handle undergraduate instruction be dedicated solely to that, and leave the research & advanced degree instruction to others that has started floating around. But I'm no position to make that happen, and only time will tell if such changes will ever occur.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 06:50:21 am
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on January 01, 2014, 11:37:45 pmif you want a professional or job-oriented education, should've taken a trade, or a professional degree like an MD, pharmacy or dentistry. these tend to be the teaching oriented faculties because they have very little research comparatively.research grants are what funds universities, not education. otherwise the faculty of arts wouldn't be mooching off of the other faculties for funding. they tend to have painfully low teacher/student ratios (something like 1/15 to 1/20 here) and don't acquire enough funding to be self-sufficient.

author: Kjetil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 06:58:15 am
content: Quote from: Fsck on January 02, 2014, 06:50:21 amOn the other hand things may not be the same all over the worldEducation systems vary a lot.Quote from: nanofrog on January 02, 2014, 06:44:38 am

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 07:00:00 am
content: Quote from: Kjetil on January 02, 2014, 06:58:15 amI probably should've said "here" and that all my experiences and views concern only Canada's universities which have doctoral programs

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 07:14:09 am
content: QuoteHow are you, as a student with no experience, in any way qualified to judge if they indeed had the right qualification? You know, it is not uncommon that professors at universities discover previous education weaknesses. Like students not being capable to perform basic math, because the normal school education did no longer teach it properly. Or students simply not being capable of concentrating on a subject for more than 30 seconds - before fondling their iPhones.Well, if you have a consumerist view of your education and if you prefer to get a good feeling instead of a good education then the evaluation might give you that.But think of something else. Think of a work environment where you are under constant surveillance by 10, 20 people (how large are your courses?). Because that is the work environment your teachers have to work in. You will later hate it if your boss constantly watches over your shoulder or the quality guy is checking after you. These teachers have 20 people constantly watching over their shoulder. People who have no clue. It takes a special kind of personality to work in such an environment. And there is no correlation that such a personality is in any way beneficial to the quality of teaching.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 07:16:57 am
content: Quote from: Kjetil on January 02, 2014, 06:58:15 amQuite true.My experiences are based in the US (public, not private for further disclosure), and hoped the way it was written indicated that as well as being helped a bit more by a US flag.Here, higher education is big business. It's even touted as having x financial contribution to the GDP, and compared to other nations. There have even been recent news articles that have shown how university presidents' wages have increased in recent years (IIRC, a lot of the increase is the result of more tuition dollars coming in due to increasing student enrollment).Quote from: Fsck on January 02, 2014, 07:00:00 amFlags help with this IMHO, and you have your set.But I get the need for clarification, and just did it myself.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 11:04:08 am
content: Quote from: coodoo on December 30, 2013, 10:53:45 pmWow, long thread.I think you are being introduced to the right kind of things for the first part of an EE course. It takes at least 10 years to become a competent engineer, and the first 4/5 of those years should be heavy on the theoretical foundations. When you start it is best to start at the beginning and build up layer by layer.The more advanced theory will come, but you will find it much easier to understand if it builds on the earlier theory that you are doing now. My advice is to concentrate on learning things in order and don't try to jump ahead too fast.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 06:31:34 pm
content: Quote from: coodoo on January 01, 2014, 04:34:02 amThat's an example where mathematics and fundamental theory will enable you in due course to discover the answer to this question yourself. Real systems are non-linear, so to get linear transfer functions you have to linearise them. For example you could use Taylor series expansions around an operating point in a non-linear model to determine a linear approximation to a non-linear system valid for small perturbations. This is described as small signal modelling or small signal analysis. The linear model is often known as a state space model, characterized by four matrices A, B, C, D.

author: coodoo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2014, 01:54:48 am
content: Quote from: IanB on January 02, 2014, 11:04:08 amThe BSc is 3,5 years long, the MSc is +2 years; thats 5,5 years. So you think we will learn only theories at university?What do you think about this:Quote from: kaindub on January 02, 2014, 12:49:10 am

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2014, 05:34:43 am
content: From software programming perspective, you get the basics in the 4 years BSSC. Unless you are a gifted genius programmer by nature, to start writing clean code, you need at least 5 years. To specialize in one area and write a working system to perform specialized job, such as graphics engine, state machine based system, compiler...you really out of luck before 10 years of learning and coding the hard way.EE is somehow rigid field and rare people who think out of the box. It's not the nature of EE it's the nature of engineers. Creativity is not very common, that's why it's the software industry that leading and helping the hardware design at every level: design, simulation, modeling, testing, automated production...etc.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2014, 09:35:18 am
content: Quote from: coodoo on January 03, 2014, 01:54:48 amYou will learn mostly theory, but you will get some practical learning too. You will do design projects and experimental projects to help put your learning into practice, and hopefully you will sometimes study examples of working designs from others to see how they work.QuoteYes, you have to do things for real. You can't learn everything you need just from reading books. But when you design and test and build prototypes you need that theory to guide your work. If you just rely on practice and experimentation in your designs you will never achieve the level of performance and efficiency and low cost that experts can obtain.In the 10 years that it takes to become competent in a profession it needs about 5 years of theory and about 5 years of practice. The truth is that for most people when you are starting out, you don't know what it is that you don't know. So it may be hard to see know what it is you are going to learn over the next several years that you will later find necessary to know.

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2014, 10:17:05 am
content: Hi,the 4 Semester of mathematics where hard and not very motivating.And quite a lot of the other lectures where also more like mathematics than EE.But in the latter part the theoretical foundation was very important. You can't understand something like the Hertz Vector-Potential without a broad mathematical knowledge. Be patient, the curtain will lift soon enough.

author: coodoo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2014, 11:33:54 pm
content: Quote from: DL8RI on January 03, 2014, 10:17:05 amWe have only 2 semesters of math on/at/in BSc. (Now, on the 3. semester we don't have any math course.) I think it's few/weak.I understand why we need learn theory, it's ok. But I think we didn't study "examples of working designs"(*) . (Or we studied but they are very simple. (common emitter amp. (with BJT) ; cmos inverter (with 2 FET)) )(*) I don't know what kind of designs do IanB thinks.

author: Avien
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2014, 11:55:05 pm
content: Although I study EE in Poland, here are the same problems like the ones mentioned before (professors learning same things for 10 or more years, making the same exams every year, so in the end you do not need to learn more).In 3 and a half year time (now I am making my graduation work (engineer)) I had about 70 different lectures and now I can count on both hands at which I really learned something. What is funny that those lectures were not easy to pass.The thing is that University will not tell/learn you to "like" making stuff. Nah they will not even shot you how to do it.If you want to learn EE, you need to start building.By the way, can you imagine an electrical or an electronic engineer without programming ability?Almost half of students (about 120 people) in my cursedo not wantto learn any programming languagePS. Sorry for my bad English, it is a bit rusty.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2014, 11:58:56 pm
content: Quote from: Avien on January 03, 2014, 11:55:05 pmHuh. Complete opposite for me, most of my classmates would rather code. A significant number of them think "electronics" = "software but with Verilog/VHDL" and "analog" = "useless academic shit", and a significant portion of the rest don't want to learnanything.

author: coodoo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 12:21:02 am
content: Quote from: Avien on January 03, 2014, 11:55:05 pmWe have prog 1 and prog 2 course with lab, but they only teach how can you write C/asm programs and not how to make programs/algorithms so a lot of students hate programming.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 04:00:45 am
content: Quote from: coodoo on January 04, 2014, 12:21:02 amI ended up doing it for a living (and quite a profitable one). Apart from a few CS courses, most of it was self taught, although having a BEng in Computer Engineering helped... a little.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 06:29:27 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on January 03, 2014, 11:58:56 pmNo they are right. Nowadays you don't really build everything from scratch you use black boxes and connect them together. You don't create your own OpAmp, timers, or logic circuits using discrete components. That's why low level analog stuff are left to a more specialized and narrowed areas.Like in software you don't create you own data structures such as lists, hash tables, ...etc. They are now standardized libraries. You don't write graphics routines to draw primitives in software or at hardware level anymore, you simply use 3D APIs.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 06:43:54 am
content: Yes, but half a graduating class of engineering students won't all find jobs mashing VHDL into their keyboards. Of course you don't build your own op amps, but youdo use op amps.

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 10:03:38 am
content: Hi,Quote from: coodoo on January 03, 2014, 11:33:54 pm2 Semesters of math is indeed very little knowledge. Everything is rushed, compressed...And I don't think a University is there for teaching examples. It is not the target of the fundamental-lectures to give you the ability to build a complete Audio-Amplifier or something like that. You should learn the fundamentals and with them (and a book about Audio-Amplifiers) you can build one or you can use (almost) the same fundamentals to build a RF-Amplifier or some digital stuff.And thats -at least in my opinion- the point, you should learn how to use the tools not the applications. You will come along a lot of applications during your study if you "live with open eyes" but it's not served to you on a silver table. Especially if you do "practical" stuff in your free time.

author: coodoo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 07:29:26 pm
content: Quote from: DL8RI on January 04, 2014, 10:03:38 amI'm interested in digital stuff so I will specialize that direction. I think I'm not able to build an RF amp with or without any book and I think we will not learn anything about RF amps on mostly digital specialization/module. (the same thing with audio-amplifiers and a lots of other things)

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 07:54:53 pm
content: Quote from: coodoo on January 04, 2014, 07:29:26 pmYou should learn something about RF as many digital circuits operate at RF frequencies and there are techniques and tricks that are cross compatible. Remember that digital is just a special case of analog.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 08:19:07 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on January 04, 2014, 06:43:54 amAgreed. But how much does the analog circuitry represent of modern electronic systems? Mainly power supply, front ends and interfacing with sensors.The rest is all digital.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 08:24:12 pm
content: Quote from: coodoo on January 04, 2014, 07:29:26 pmGo for it. Digital is today's and future electronics. No one just out of school can build OpAmp's. It's something that require a huge $$$ only giant companies in the industry can afford.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 05:05:43 pm
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on January 04, 2014, 08:19:07 pmMaybe. I'm not an EE, and I know analog has a particular meaning in circuit design, but on the other hand all circuits are analog, even digital ones...

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 05:13:17 pm
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on January 04, 2014, 08:19:07 pmPop open a computer and look at the motherboard. There is more support circuitry thancomputer. And it ain't all digital.Now, I understand I'm in the minority these days in preferring analog. Most people don't want to spend their lives designingsupport circuitry, and I don't have an issue with that. What I don't like is this "it's not the cutting edge, so we're going to pretend it's boring old academic bullshit nobody really needs" attitude that is evident in university curricula and students.Engineering has many specializations, and in my opinion, educators should try to expose students to as many of them as possible so they can discover their interests. Yes, this includes forcing my grouchy ass to do digital stuff (hint: I actuallyenjoyedworking with FPGAs).

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 08:40:31 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on January 05, 2014, 05:05:43 pmTrue but all this is abstracted. I cannot specialize in machine language or assembly just because all higher level languages and abstract data structures, libraries, APIs, drivers and operating system are end compiled into machine code.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 08:49:18 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on January 05, 2014, 05:13:17 pmAnd that's why I mentioned there's power supply, protection, and analog signal interfacing circuitry. Generally speaking those are now available as components you can plug in your circuits, and are designed by scientists in the field. The core functionality is mainly digital, and to be proficient in using FPGAs and uP using your own circuit (vs. devkits and Arduino ilks) is much more essential than spending your life in a limited application area. It's fine for the sake of learning but overdoing it is simply a waste of time and effort.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 10:19:15 pm
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on January 05, 2014, 08:49:18 pmYou ain't gonna be much of a designer if you don't know how to get your signals in and out of that FPGA....You can be a VHDL wizard but if you are tasked making a system , using DDR5 memory, a couple of PCI-X ports, and two SATa or USB3.0 ports and you have no clue how to do the layout , how to interconnect and terminate these signals properly, how to design the power supply , properly provide it decoupling and sequencing that thing is going to do nothing.These days designers build SYSTEMS , not just 'i do code, you do analog , and we have a lab rat doing the polygon pushing to make the board'. That doesn't work anymore.

author: coodoo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 10:44:42 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 05, 2014, 10:19:15 pmThat is very interesting. Where can I learn something like that? Books?I don't think we will learn anything about that at university. :-(

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 11:26:54 pm
content: Quote from: coodoo on January 05, 2014, 10:44:42 pmDigital board layout often simply requires time and practice under the guidance of someone who knows what they are doing. When you have 128bit buses buzzing along at a GHz or more, layout is critical.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 11:38:37 pm
content: Quote from: coodoo on January 05, 2014, 10:44:42 pmnot at university no...books :Right the first time by RitcheyHigh speed digtal design by JohnsonAnything you can get your hands on from Montrose

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 02:41:55 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 05, 2014, 10:19:15 pmWhat you just mentioned except for the power supply, are basically digital stuff. Interconnecting digital components, memeory, FPGA, clocking, designing board all that stuff is digital. And I'm not talking about "coding"Using HDL is not coding it's called automated digital synthesis, and it's one stage of the entire design process.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 02:44:10 am
content: Quote from: coodoo on January 05, 2014, 10:44:42 pmNo books on this planet on how to create your own FPGA/uP embedded system from scratch. It's an art mastered at big companies or try it urself thing by deciphering lengthy data sheets and design guides.

author: coodoo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 12:47:39 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 05, 2014, 11:38:37 pmThank you. I think the "Right the first time" is very understandable.Quote from: IntegratedValve on January 06, 2014, 02:44:10 amI'm sad about this.