Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2025, 07:55:00 am
content: So I went to Norway for the holidays, with my tiny RV as vehicle, but did not sleep in it.And it got to -19C overnight.And it seems my solar mppt controler broke, ended up with a burst capacitor. Upon returning, the MPPT was dead with a few drops of electrolyte still seen dripped out when I dismounted it and likely held it at new angles. And yes, it is electrolyte, not water. Horrible smell, even worse taste (I should not have tasted that). Manufacturer lists -30C for the MPPT device as a whole, but I am not sure what the capacitors by themselves would be.As you may imagine, there is not a whole lot of solar load in the Norway winter, so we can ignore cooking or frying the capacitor. Even if there was a single sunny moment, it would get nowhere near the specs (in fact, it would not even get near the voltage specs if I was in Spain in Summer).Someone mentioned condensation, but while condensation can short or rot stuff, I do not see how external water, freezing or not, can cause a capacitor to burst from within. Also, apart from the exact place where the stuff dripped, everything else, above, below, to the side of the device, was very dry with no visible hints of past water. No drying lines nor blackness on the untreated wood.And of course, condensation is actually more of a summer or spring problem. The air is actually pretty dry in winter.Can they freeze? Anyoney has had such a thing before?Or am I completely chasing phantoms with this freeze theory?Would it have to have been a bad batch to freeze (like the famous Dell capacitors of early 2000)?Photo for ambiance

author: ahsrabrifat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2025, 12:47:15 pm
content: Yes. Electrolytic capacitors can freeze and fail in extremely low temperatures.https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/aluminium-electrolytic-capacitor-in-low-temperature.89181/

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2025, 03:00:20 pm
content: Aluminum electrolytic capacitors can freeze, but starting at -25C in the worst case. Even if they freeze, they do not usually burst.

author: CaptDon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2025, 09:33:33 pm
content: We regularly test from -40C to +100C although sometimes only up to +85C. We have done extended soaks for a week and even a little more at the high and low test limits. I have not seem any failures like yours. I have although rarely seen electrical failures after days of thermal extreme cycling. I saw one case similar to yours with a swelled capacitor and a forensic investigation seemed to show that the electrolyte has decomposed to water and solids and the watery part did swell upon freezing. I wonder if your capacitor had previously burst unknown to you and over time while losing the electrolyte it finally failed to have enough capacity to function in your system? The capacitor may have had high ESR, produced extra heat and burst but continued to operate until total failure occurred?

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 09:47:35 am
content: QuoteThe electrolyte in the capacitors contains Ethylene Glycol.Do not ingest itorgan damage is irreversible.Xhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol_poisoning

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 10:45:34 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on January 19, 2025, 09:47:35 amIt was stupid yes. I wondered if it was water so I unthinkingly licked my wet fingertip before I could stop myselfAnyway, since you added a reference, I checked, and it has a LD50 of 4 gram per kilogram body weightWhich is 3x worse then alcohol (which I vaguely recall is somewhat chemically related). So licking my fingertip is roughly the same as you getting the last drop out of your empty beerglass (ignoring where the rest of the beer went)Not that such is a good argument for drinking glycol. Instead we should stop drinking alcohol really. That too has organ damage in its description.Edit: interesting relevant toxicity video:https://youtu.be/-lXIaS2tkkk?si=yONd3d0U1XBfIQSF

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 02:02:54 pm
content: Quote from: cybermaus on January 19, 2025, 10:45:34 amGreetings cybermaus...Thanks for the video link!I wasn't saying that it was going to do any real harm in this instance, the content of one small capacitor isnt going to kill a maus (😁) and nor was I berating your post, however, we never know what kind of person reads these posts...Ethylene poisoning in even small quantities also has a greater cumulative effect. Your beer contains Ethanol, and where it is chemically similar to Ethylene it is no where near as poisonous, as in the quantities needed to cause animmediateproblem are much smaller for Ethylene. The relative toxicity is not a linear relationship, and also people with differing metabolism will be affected differently.It's health effect is similar to but far more severe than IPA poisoning, I recently had to sack a junior employee because he had thought it was fun to put IPA in a colleagues drinks mug. (Fortunately it wasnt consumed).Best regards,X

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 04:04:17 pm
content: Quote from: cybermaus on January 19, 2025, 10:45:34 amThe old-school antidote for ethylene glycol was ethanol. So if you accidentally ingest some antifreeze or capacitor electrolyte and you are stranded in a remote area, the thing to do is get drunk.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 04:19:43 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on January 19, 2025, 04:04:17 pm"Help, I accidentally drank some poison" "Here, have some different poison to neutralize"....Interestingly, with all the side-effects of all common medicine, this is actually pretty normal medical advise. The trick is to know exactly which one, and use fancier words.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 04:44:06 pm
content: No, -19degC does not damage electrolytic capacitors. The product was just crap. With crap, anything can act as trigger for failure; maybe low temperature, maybe not.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 05:07:57 pm
content: Electrolytics don't all use the same electrolyte. They fail at different temperatures. Most won't do well after a spell at -55C, while mil spec ones are required to. Most components have two temperature ranges. Storage and operating. Some have three. Long term storage, short term storage, and operating. For electrolytics believe those ranges.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 05:21:39 pm
content: Quote from: cybermaus on January 19, 2025, 04:19:43 pmbdunham7 is 100% correct.Get drunk and stay drunk until you get to a hospital with dialysis facilities. The ethanol will competitively inhibit ethylene glycol metabolism, and formation and accumulation of the toxic metabolites.XPS.Just checked:Modern treatment is Fomepizole... a very expensive drug. Swigging capacitor juice will cost you about €5k just for medication.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 05:24:24 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on January 19, 2025, 05:21:39 pmSee? fancier words.(actually, all of this, from ethanol to fomepizole, was in the linked video)

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 05:33:10 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on January 19, 2025, 05:21:39 pmTwo things I remember about this are 1) you have to be very drunk, the ethanol was typically given via IV because the amount would make many people too sick to drink it all and 2) you'll eventually eliminate the glycol on your own because there are two routes--one it is eliminated directly and without harm and the other it is converted to oxalic acid which destroys your kidneys. I'm sure there's more to it, but I remember the oxalic acid because I had a kidney stone (not ethylene glycol related) and it was mentioned as being part of the process.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 05:35:36 pm
content: Quote from: cybermaus on January 19, 2025, 05:24:24 pmExactly, fancier words, (had to Gurgle it again, as I'd forgotten already. Over the years too much capacitor juice got to me brane)And just in case readers couldn't be bothered to watch the video.X

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 05:40:21 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on January 19, 2025, 05:33:10 pmCould easily be you ingested it in the form of rhubarb pie!Oxalic acid is contained in the leaves of the plant and their stems if exposed to light whilst growing.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 06:04:45 pm
content: Nobody has asked--what brand/model was the capacitor?

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 06:14:59 pm
content: Not sure. I did not open the device as yet, as I am awaiting warranty judgement, which will probably take a few days.But it is bound to be a proper one, as it is a Victron, which should be a proper brand MPPT.Here is a link of the exact same model device opened by someone else (for a different reason).https://community.victronenergy.com/t/can-the-non-replaceable-fuse-in-the-100-30-mppt-controller-be-repaired/17584/7

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 06:37:06 pm
content: [On topic mode]Was the device powered up whilst in the low temperature state?Some have badly deteriorated specifications when they are operating near their temperature extremes. Even loss of capacitance can cause something like a rise in ripple that could cause it to failperhaps?X

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 06:48:08 pm
content: Well yes. I mean, there will not have been a lot of solar, but it was of course hooked up to the battery. As is normal for a solar install in a camper.And well within -30..+80 operating spec.(Note: for lead, not for LFP. Keep your LFP's out of the frost guys)Anyway, the reason I asked here on EEV as a generic question (as well as with the victron specialists for the more device specific review) is because I wanted to sound out if anyone has ever had a frozen cap.As I asked at the start:"Can they freeze? Anyone has had such a thing before?""Or am I completely chasing phantoms with this freeze theory?"Personally, it would be a completely new failure mode to me, even though cars are full of capacitors while outside in winder.So far, no one seems to have admitted to ever having a cap fail due to freezing, even though@CaptDonclaims to normally test them to -40C.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 07:23:13 pm
content: Can they freeze? I'd say yes, however not at -20°C if they're good quality. I'm aware there are different specifications from commercial grade to mil spec.Storage and operating parameters are also quoted at seperate figures but you would think that a respected manufacturer wouldn't use a poor component in a design that they claim will work above –30°CIt would be an interesting and infomative experiment to test a capacitor, freeze it down to the minus 20, then re-test it, I have some electrolytic capacitors here, I'll seal one on a container now, put it in the freezer, and report later.Just out of interest what was the value and voltage rating of the burst capacitor?X

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 07:32:32 pm
content: As per image of similar model device linked above: 6 pieces of 220uF 160V 105C (presumed low ESR as well)Which means quite a wide spec margin from the 12V battery and 36Vmpp solar that was attached to it.I was planning a similar test with the remaining non-ruptured ones if/when they would reject warrantyOut of interest, not because it would be worth trying to change their mindCaptDon seems to think they more likely have failed due to other reasons, and the frost merely prevented me from smelling/discovering the electrolyte.But, with a 36V to 160V voltage margin, what on earth could have made them fail. Must be a similar bad batch, and if we assume a bad batch, then all would be possible again

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 07:41:30 pm
content: Quote from: cybermaus on January 19, 2025, 07:32:32 pmInternal heating from ripple current is what often kills electrolytic capacitors, not as much overvoltage (they usually sustain 10-20% overvoltage just fine).In cold temperatures the ESR is much MUCH higher, meaning the capacitors dissipate more power than usual - but then again this is a self-rectifying situation, as they heat up then the power dissipation goes down again. But I'm not sure if there can be some sudden failure simply from localized sudden heating (high thermal power density) and temperature difference it causes, maybe it's a viable idea?Given it's Victron and not some crappy Ebay special, the capacitor is probably not seriously underdimensioned either. So maybe quality control problem with the capacitor itself combined with the temperature-related hotspotting acting as a trigger?Note though that if panels are rated to 36Vmpp, then Voc is much higher, and at low temperatures get even higher. Still not anywhere close to 160V, though, so voltage is unlikely cause.

author: CaptDon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 08:02:48 pm
content: Why such a voltage margin?? That makes no sense at all since a 220uf@160vdc would be much more expensive than one rated for 50 or 63vdc. Are you sure that capacitor bank only had up to 36 volts on it? That hits me as very strange from a manufacturing / cost benefit point of view. The circuit boards loaded with capacitors and even super capacitors that I speak of are going into locomotives and we have some thermal chambers which use dry nitrogen which eliminates the buildup of frost and other chambers with dual stage cooling that do tend to accumulate frost on the boards which can have its own merits or drawbacks. Testing to -40C is always done, the +85C or +100C spec is set by the customer. On a side note, we have learned that ethernet phy magnetics seem to stop working above 105C and switched mode magnetics when the supply is at 100C and the magnetics are running around 130C start to also not work properly.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 08:19:15 pm
content: Well, those are the models Victron sells.75V by 15 Amp75V by 20 Amp100V by 30 Amp100V by 50 AmpIt's kind of logical for Victron to not choose 100V caps for 100V device, and 160V is the next one up.It is not Victron's fault I choose to only hook 2x 18V panels in series to it.Actually, 4 100W panels in a 2x2, giving 400W or 27Amps theoretical max on 12V)So I (theoretically) needed the 100V model, because 20Amp was too low.I could have done all in 4 series but that would have surpassed the 75V model anyway, so still stuck to the 100V model.Had they made a 75V by 30Amp, it would have been a better theoretical fit, that is true.In retrospect, I never seen it charge more then 12 Amp (flat roof, and also usually the battery is already into absorption before we reach the middle of the day) so probably a 75x20 would have been plenty.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 08:54:49 pm
content: There are some good hints.On one hand, lower temperatures are better for capacitors. In their capacitor datasheets, Vishay supplies a chart indicating by how much expected lifetime is increased as a function of temperature and ripple current. The increase is of multiple orders of magnitude.Here is an example for 013 RLC series, I think the worst of all (Fig. 10, p. 4):Similar for TDK B41858 (p. 14):Generally aluminium electrolytic capacitors are all rated down to -55°C to -40°C. All bear the IEC 60068 climate category 40 or 55 too.But it also seems that the higher voltage capacitors have much shorter range. For 150 CRZ (250 CRZ-V for high vibration) the rating goes from -55°C to -40°C after crossing 63 V. The 056 PSM-SI snap-in are -40°C, but their 200–450V counterpart (057 PSM-SI) is only -25°C. Similar TDK’s B43858 series, which are rated for -25 °C.In Vishay’s outline of their test procedures, for cold endurance testing with no voltage, the requirements include “no leakage of electrolyte.” Which would also suggest that one of failure modes in low temperatures is an electrolyte leak.I have no idea, what mechanism would be responsible for either.Since the subject was brought up, a safety reminder.If possible, don’t store harmful substances in what may be confused with a food container.Label, label, label. Label everything. And remove/cover any labels that may suggest different contents.Keep away from creatures, human and non-human, that may have limited capacity to understand their actions. Most notably that means kids, but also yourself being drunk or experiencing low glucose.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 10:23:07 pm
content: Just started the very unscientific experiment.Two capacitors, similar physical size, one a Rubycon branded 2200μF 50V, the other a Micon branded 120μF 400V both have had capacity, ESR, and maximum voltage, (as a function of rising leakage) checked. I'll leave both sitting (well contained) in the freezer for a day and see what happens, if not physically, then electrically, and report what happens.In this instance they have no polarising voltage applied.Quote from: golden_labels on January 19, 2025, 08:54:49 pmVery sage advice.X

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2025, 03:05:31 am
content: For the KM series in 160–450 V range Micon claims -25°C, while -40°C for lower voltages of the same model. Let’s see!And here’s a violin plot of what voltages fall in what low temperature groups, for all Vishay’s radial, SMD, and snap-in capacitors.(1)Each series covers a range of voltages and one representative had to be chosen for the series: the left pane uses the highest voltage, the right pane uses the middle point of the range.The distributions are unworkable with basic tools, so I’ll not even attempt doing a proper analysis. Butusing my eyesuggests that indeed worse temperature ratings are associated with higher voltages.(2)While it’s possible there is something about the electrolyte or the oxide layer, which produces that effect, there may be other explanations. It may as well be caused by how parts are grouped for marketing purposes.(1)Except vibration-resistant versions, which duplicate their less sturdy counterparts.(2)Which does not imply the converse!Data (CSV):Code:"Format","Series","Voltage min. ","Voltage max. ","Min. temperature [-°C]""Radial","013 RLC",6.3,50.0,40"Radial","036 RSP",6.3,100.0,55"Snap-In","090 PUL-SI",25.0,100.0,40"Snap-In","093 PMG-SI",200.0,450.0,25"Snap-In","094 PME-SI",200.0,450.0,25"Radial","116 RLL",6.3,100.0,55"Radial","136 RVI",10.0,100.0,55"SMD","139 CLL",6.3,100.0,55"SMD","140 CRH",6.3,63.0,55"Radial","140 RTM",6.3,63.0,55"SMD","142 CVZ",6.3,100.0,55"Radial","142 RHS",10.0,450.0,40"SMD","146 CTI",16.0,100.0,55"Radial","146 RTI",16.0,63.0,55"Radial","148 RUS",6.3,100.0,40"SMD","150 CRZ",6.3,63.0,55"SMD","150 CRZ",80.0,100.0,40"Radial","150 RMI",10.0,100.0,55"SMD","152 CME",400.0,450.0,40"Radial","152 RMH",200.0,450.0,40"SMD","153 CRV",6.3,100.0,55"Snap-In","156 PUM-SI",16.0,100.0,40"Snap-In","157 PUM-SI",200.0,500.0,25"Snap-In","158 PUL-SI",16.0,100.0,40"Snap-In","159 PUL-SI",200.0,500.0,25"SMD","160 CLA",16.0,80.0,55"Radial","160 RLA",16.0,50.0,55"Radial","170 RVZ",10.0,63.0,55"Radial","172 RLX",10.0,50.0,40"Radial","190 RTL",16.0,50.0,55"SMD","192 CTX",400.0,400.0,40"Snap-In","193 PUR-SI",400.0,450.0,40"Snap-In","193 PUR-SI",500.0,500.0,25"Snap-In","193 PUR-SI Solar",500.0,570.0,40"Snap-In","198 PHR",400.0,450.0,25"Snap-In","256 PMG-SI",16.0,100.0,40"Snap-In","257 PRM-SI",200.0,450.0,40"Snap-In","257 PRM-SI",500.0,500.0,25"Snap-In","259 PHM-SI",200.0,500.0,40"Snap-In","299 PHL-4TSI",350.0,450.0,40"Snap-In","299 PHL-4TSI",500.0,600.0,25"Snap-In","056 PSM-SI",10.0,100.0,40"Snap-In","057 PSM-SI",200.0,450.0,25"Snap-In","058 PLL-SI",10.0,100.0,40"Snap-In","059 PLL-SI",200.0,400.0,25

author: indeterminate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2025, 07:44:46 am
content: The sancon RE caps that are in a lot of there products are rated to -40chttps://sanconglobal.com/sancon_file/RE.pdf

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2025, 08:21:12 am
content: Quote from: CaptDon on January 19, 2025, 08:02:48 pmWell, the product specification does say 100V max open circuit voltage, but end users are notoriously bad at understanding PV system dimensioning, even professionals struggle. It is nearly 100% guaranteed that even if the user does not confuse Vmpp with Voc, they do forget to temperature-compensate the Voc and thus end up with 20% overvoltage at cold temperatures; so it's a very good idea to design the charge controller such that it deals with 120V on its input without blowing up. And with 100V capacitors that would be marginal. 125V rating is not that widely available so that leaves 160V. Another question is, of course, if the MOSFETs can survive 120V or so.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2025, 09:03:58 am
content: Exactly, It is why I mentioned that 4x18Vmpp serial would not fit on a 75V model.And even on a 100V model 4x18Vmpp would be close, it would only work because I trust Victron to over dimension.But I also stuck to 2x2 to stay under the 50V, often seen as the limit for "safe voltage" for life and limb.I mean, that roof keeps opening and closing and vibrating and jostling, and those wires go right next by my pillow.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2025, 09:00:21 pm
content: Ok.Just to report back with the freezer test.When the container with the two capacitors was removed from the freezer the temperature was an indicated –21°C.Neither the 2200μF 50V Rubycon or the 120μF 400V Micon showed any sign of physical distress.A retest of both was carried out immediately whilst still cold.With the Rubycon, there was no discernable difference from it's pre frozen test.The Micon had changed slightly, the capacitance had dropped from it's initial value of 118μF to 110μF and the ESR had risen from 0.12Ω to 0.2Ω.The instrument I used was a Peak Atlas ESR70 and current limited bench psu for working voltage and leakage checks.I will say on the back of that, the likelihood is that the failed capacitor cybermaus had, was just a coincidence, probably a bad component in the first place.I hope the manufacturer does the decent thing and offer to replace the unit.Regards.X

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2025, 09:41:30 pm
content: I heard about cheap capacitors failing because they didn't use antifreeze.Obviously don't drink ethylene glycol, but tiny amounts won't do any harm. Oxalic acid is toxic in large quantities, but can be found in small concentrations in many edible plants such as parsley, spinach and Brussels sprouts.It's quite cold in parts of America perhaps someone can build an oscillator with a capacitor and see if it works outside in the cold.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2025, 06:49:42 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on January 20, 2025, 09:00:21 pmThanksIt would (anecdotally) match the suggestion higher voltage ratings have less cold resistance.Did the values return after warming to room temp?

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2025, 07:46:14 am
content: I warned against making that conclusion!In this thread we try to find the explanation. So I believe it’s fine to have observations. But they are merely hints.The data shows: worse temperature rating ⇒ higher voltage.An implication can’t be flipped. “Higher voltage ⇒ worse temperature rating” is a different thing. Being even less formal: if we have a -25°C rated capacitor in hand, it’s very likely to be a high voltage one. But if we take a high voltage capacitor, it’s not neccessarily true, that there are overwhelming chances for it to be rated to -25°C only.Perhaps it is like that and it may be a good lead to check. But for that it would be good to have somebody with knowledge about capacitor electrolytes. Or with experience in using capacitors in various environments.I considered repeating Xena’s experiment, but my freezer only goes to 11.editTo show in pictures, how flipping that implication fails, here’s a table. It shows exactly the same thing as the chart, just grouping capacitors into “>100 V” and “≤100 V” bins:(1)Code:| 25 40 55-----+------------>100 | 10 9≤100 | 10 16We may agree 10 isn’t overwhelmingly larger than 9.(1)Upper voltage range. 100 V chosen, because it’s where the lower cluster ends.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2025, 08:24:47 am
content: Quote from: cybermaus on January 21, 2025, 06:49:42 amRoom temperature (18°C) The Micon is now showing 117μF 0.13 ESR.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2025, 08:50:56 am
content: Quote from: golden_labels on January 21, 2025, 07:46:14 amWhich is what I tried to convey with the words "anecdotal" and "suggestion"?

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2025, 01:06:25 pm
content: Ok, I misunderstood.I just wanted to be clear and this is something to very easly get wrong.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2025, 02:15:24 pm
content: Probably failed already earlier and you just happen to notice the burst caps later on.Never seen or heard of electrolytics bursting in freezing temps but seen and replaced hundreds of burst capacitors because of exessive ripple current, overvoltage, low quality and heat.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2025, 02:24:56 pm
content: Quote from: golden_labels on January 21, 2025, 07:46:14 amMethodial measurements are observations. Perhaps you mean anecdotes. You need anecdotes. Most thorough investigations begin with an anecdote that says something interesting may be going on.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2025, 02:34:06 pm
content: Quote from: mzzj on January 21, 2025, 02:15:24 pmSuch seems to be the emerging consensus, thanks all.Still weird. Outside of the question asked in this post (can they freeze: No, not really) there was nothing else. No sun or hot temps. Very small voltages and currents. And most importantly, no tinkering of any kind, it was working stable for a year and untouched. Lets face it, the biggest risk to DIY power electronics is mistakes during construction and/or skipping the fuses "for now" (I did fuse it though, on both ends)Victron (or at least their front-end seller) is requesting the device to be send in.With a explicit nice threat of research cost if they judge no product fault. I am a bit disappointed about that.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2025, 11:19:35 am
content: Quote from: mzzj on January 21, 2025, 02:15:24 pmYeah, like:Earlier problems (excess ripple current or QC issue on capacitor itself) leading to rise in ESR;Cold temperature (temporarily, in a reversible way) increases ESR as well;Combination thereof makes the failure become apparent.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2025, 11:21:52 am
content: Quote from: cybermaus on January 21, 2025, 02:34:06 pmWhat a weird way to do business. Send it in; don't sign any contract, so that they have no grounds to bill you.

author: Geoff-AU
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2025, 10:00:17 pm
content: Quote from: cybermaus on January 21, 2025, 02:34:06 pmThat's good! They should be interested in a failure like that.QuoteThat's bad....Let's hope it's a standard/boilerplate threat, I'm sure people send in items that have suffered abuse all the time. Keep us updated on Victron's findings.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 01:52:49 pm
content: Following up:Victron did honor warranty with no further fuzz (or info or remarks) and send a new deviceThey were a bit brave with the mail, sending the new device in its retail box, without overbox of any kind. Literally the address sticker on the blue retail box and in the mail.But no damage whatsoever, not even to the box, so I guess its good for the environment that way, no unneeded packaging material.

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 04:15:12 pm
content: Quote from: Geoff-AU on January 23, 2025, 10:00:17 pmYeah that's very standard. I've worked investigating product returns before and you wouldn't believe the amount of very obviously broken by the user things that people try and return as faulty.I used to work at a place that makes electronic things that fit into machine tool spindles. They have a max RPM that's permitted. Many get reyurned as "I don't know what happened, it just stopped working, it must be a fault with your product". Open it up and all of the PCBs are torn to pieces and smooshed up againt the outside of the unit. "Hmmm, are you sure you didn't spin this up to 20k RPM by mistake Mr User? Really?"A friend of mine sat on a barbeque in a pretty much new wetsuit and tried to return it as "I don't know what happened, the neoprene just started to spontaneously degrade". They clearly knew he was taking the piss because it was very obviously burned but they still replaced it.This goes 10 times over for the lower end Victron stuff which is often bought and installed by DIYers who connect with wrong polarity or overvolt the PV inputs etc etc.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 05:09:16 pm
content: Quote from: cybermaus on February 13, 2025, 01:52:49 pmThats a good result for you, and good to know theyre still a decent company to deal with, thanks for letting us know.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 07:35:48 pm
content: One thing to note is that at night time, under calm weather conditions, when the sky is clear, the temperature of surfaces can be much lower than the air temperature, especially when they're exposed to the cold night's sky. It might be -20oC, but the temperature of your inverter might be much lower.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 01:04:17 am
content: Quote from: cybermaus on January 19, 2025, 06:14:59 pmJust out of interest, if you have not opened the device then:A) How do you know it was a capacitor?B) How did you access to the leaked "juice"?Glad to hear it got sorted out.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 05:53:28 am
content: Well, as per first post ".... few drops of electrolyte still seen dripping out when I dismounted it and held it at angles. And yes, it is electrolyte, not water. Horrible smell, even worse taste (I should not have tasted that)"Also, as per image later-on, I have seen inside another same device. There are 6 large capacitors.I would really have ben interested in knowing if it was just one, or more that had gone.But alas, Victron simply send me a new device with no fuss. Which is good, but I really would have liked to see the inside.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 03:17:09 pm
content: Quote from: cybermaus on February 14, 2025, 05:53:28 amAhh, I thought this meant you had dismounted the cap. My mistake.