How do I get offa windows and learn something else? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Biff383
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2014, 05:26:26 pm
content: { I've had it... I'm an old man and I am sick of figuring out what Microsoft is going to do next . I am interested in another operating system. How is Linux, and how do I learn how to download and use it? I stuck with Mr. Gates for 15 years or so....there was nothing wrong with DOS, but I had to go and start with Windows, and this would be the end of that it's time for a change. Isn't there a tutorial out there that gets you through the whole switch?To the Mods. Feel free to put this post in a more proper category.8.1 on April 8??? I could download it 3 months ago..........Idiots. Feed the masses with bullshit and keep them in the dark. Oops, I'm sorry I guess they target people that will download their poop ware. That makes some kind of sense I guess.I suppose that it's time for me to stop complaining and just get on with it......I guess it's time to end this [close to] a rant.I choose to listen to a lot of what you people say, I realize that I don't contribute that much to this forum but then again the only thing I have to contribute is info on 480 3 phase industrial crap. And maybe some troubleshooting skills. And maybe some mechanical stuff.Rant}Thanks Dave

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2014, 05:39:50 pm
content: Buy a MAC with OSX (OSX=Linux which works out of the box) and use Virtual box to run MS Windows.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2014, 05:52:32 pm
content: tutorials? probably a ton on google. "desktop" linux distros are pretty user friendly. Stuff like *buntu, Mint, Zorin are some of the defacto windows->linux migration OSes. Zorin is claimed to be specifically designed to help transition windows users to linux, but I've never tried it myself. it probably comes with a guide.My first linux os was Fedora 2, back in high school when I did computer work. Also had to deal with these ridiculously confusing gentoo switches/routers for our ISP functions. (small remote town, typical internet transfer rate <5Mbps)If you want to stick with windows, you could always cling onto Windows 7 like some people will. (like myself. hell I still have a WinXP laptop I use for certain instrument control)Quote from: nctnico on April 03, 2014, 05:39:50 pmIt's Unix-like, not linux. neener!

author: Biff383
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2014, 06:05:01 pm
content: Still have a 98, 2000, xp and 7......It's outta f ing control. I need to consolidate. If you could tell me how to put all the PLC programs together in one system I would rule the world. I'm using 5 different languages for the PLC's

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2014, 06:10:41 pm
content: Get Oracle's Virtualbox :https://www.virtualbox.org/Download whatever ISO of Linux you wish and experiment with it in the virtual computer. Easy to go back and forth between virtual computer and Windows to search/ask for help with particular problems.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2014, 06:15:30 pm
content: Quote from: Fsck on April 03, 2014, 05:52:32 pmTechnically it's BSD with an idiot-proof UI on top of it.I recommend starting with either Ubuntu or Linux Mint. Mint is better if you want something that just works, Ubuntu is better because it has a larger community.As for learning the guts of the operating system, nothing works better than running a barebones Debian system and configuring it from the ground up.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2014, 06:21:50 pm
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on April 03, 2014, 06:15:30 pmArchlinux or Gentoo FTW! (Arch is better IMO)

author: pa2ees
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2014, 07:09:07 pm
content: Kubuntu is quite similar to windows in layout. It will be intuitive for someone not familiar to linux. Plain old ubuntu comes with Unity (which has a very frustrating learning curve to windows-y people), so I don't recommend it as a jump into the linux world.As others have suggested, if you're really wanting to get into linux, a more plain vanilla flavor is the way to go, and you'll learn a ton from all the hiccups, configurations, things not working, etc...kubuntu.org will have a cd .iso to download, which you can pop in your drive, boot from, and try it out without touching your windows install. After messing with it for a while, and you feel more comfortable with it, you can then install it in place of your windows. Or, you can get another hard drive, install linux there, and have a dual boot system.There are tons of tutorials and videos on how to set up ubuntu. My advice is to jump into it. I run all linux boxes at home, except for my box that has Altium (get with it Altium!!), which runs 7.- Erik

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2014, 07:12:46 pm
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on April 03, 2014, 06:15:30 pmBSD is derived from the early Unix editions, so it's unix-like.

author: Biff383
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2014, 07:16:13 pm
content: New opertunities.....I'm liking it. Anyone with PLC experience help me with the twisted, deranged, whys of this crap? I can make something do something at least 5 different ways... How do you teach someone how to program when you have 100 different programs (exaduratration).

author: Biff383
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2014, 07:25:30 pm
content: I would rather not go to Mr Jobs. I am interested in something i can do something with. It might not be right. ....but I can make it want.

author: Biff383
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2014, 07:30:55 pm
content: What I

author: Biff383
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2014, 07:43:33 pm
content: Oops...Thank you for all the feedback..

author: Biff383
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2014, 07:49:12 pm
content: I'm posting this offa android right now. ......Shouldn't we have 1 form of communication?I was offa win 8 before that.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2014, 08:18:26 pm
content: I think I should try a Linux distro again. In 2007 (yes I know 7 years ago) I tried to run on Linux only for the whole year. That experiment was a horrible experience. I have many varied uses for my computer and so I needed many different programs not just email, word processing and web. So I would get to a certain point of getting programs working and then I would add one more and I would end up with 5 programs broken. The reason? Dependencies! Programs would require certain libraries of other programs to work and the programs I needed would need different versions of the same library, or a library that could not exist with another library, etc..There were 3 possibilities for me to continue.First, multi-boot different installations of Linux with the different programs I needed in each installation. Needless to say this would be quite a pain to try and use email on three installations as well as chat programs etc....Second, multi-boot Linux and Windows and only need to manage two installations.Third, why bother? Just switch back to Windows as the only installation and then only need to manage one OS.Linux is(was) useful for servers and limited desktop use. Trying to make it work as a one computer do it all machine is(was) futile. Linux is great in that it is open source, free, and flexible. Linux is horrible because it is so fragmented and difficult to determine if something you are about to install will kill a whole bunch of other programs.Now my experience is not that uncommon but many people are happy with a Linux distro. If you are going to just do the common things with a computer it will probably be great. If you do things out of the ordinary then expect some problems or expect to have a computer for simple things and one or two for more specialized use, or multi-boot.If anyone has a handle on a distro that will handle 32+bit image editing, video editing in the same league as Adobe Premier or Sony Vegas, sound editing in 5.1 or 7.1, will handle all hardware W7 does, will manage Nvidia Optimus, CUDA, OCL....... and oh yes, gaming, I would like to know.You get the idea. I am not knocking Linux but just be aware it might not be a total answer for many people.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2014, 09:09:12 pm
content: I have been using Linux mint 16 for some months now, first as a dual boot with XP on one machine now it is the operating system on two others with dual boot one still as well which I intend to change to Linux only and have Windows running in virtual box, but only as a necessity for the few programs that are Windows only. I have had no troubles with Linux using programs from the official depository, did bring one machine down after loading a program but not sure if that was due to the program as when I re-installed Linux the machine again refused to boot after two days and I had not installed the program that appeared to cause the first crash. I installed 64 bit instead of 32 and no further trouble so it might be a 32 bit instability, I don,t know enough about Linux and programming to be sure but as the problem only occurred on the computer running 32 and the others which had 64 bit but otherwise identical programs installed ran fine and after installing the 64 bit version there was no further trouble I think its a far assumption. The really annoying thing is the computer is the one in my workshop and on both occasions it was Wednesday morning and I wanted to listen to the Amp Hour but couldn't.

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2014, 09:19:39 pm
content: There's only one way to learn linux: The hard way.Bite the bullet and don't look back.

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 02:49:20 am
content: I have been a Linux/Zorin user for nearly a year. After a false start trying Kubuntu (video card/driver issues) and briefly Mint (just a personal dislike) I settled on Zorin. The only other hardware issue was that none of the distros I tried played nicely with a crappy Aldi keyboard I was using. Another generic USB keyboard fixed that.Experimenting and installation (either dual boot or replacing Windows) by burning the ISO file to DVD/RW is very straight forward. Perhaps you might need to enter your PC bios and alter the boot sequence to look at the optical drive first. An alternative is booting and running directly off a USB stick.Compared to XP this older hardware is like a new system again. OS memory footprint is half of XP and the complete OS file size runs to less that 12Gb. It is very robust and stable, this machine is on 24/7 and I only reboot once a month when a new kernal is available. I have never had a lockup.I strongly recommend Zorin as a general purpose OS as it comes with all the typical utilities and is preloaded with WINE for the occasional Windows program you prefer or need. The UI is also deliberately a clone of win7 but I found the native Gnome look and feel more to my liking. But you won't have to learn very much new, except maybe there are no drive letters and filenames are case sensitive.I have also installed it on a few mates computers with no issues, one of which was a laptop with a Telstra wireless broadband dongle, and even that obscure piece of kit was recognized and installed automatically.Anyone who was put off by the tinkering needed to set up a linux system a few years ago really should give a newer distro a go. You won't look back.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 03:05:44 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on April 03, 2014, 09:09:12 pmA far reaching one, certainly.. Assumptions do not get you anywhere in this world.

author: casinada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 05:22:51 am
content: As you can see in this thread there as many flavors of Linux as there are people. If you jump in the Linux bandwagon, you have to do some research and make sure all your hardware is supported otherwise you'll get lost frustrated and end up giving up.If you need a popular windows application you can try to use winehopefully will be supported.For web browsing and word processing any OS will be fine otherwise stick with the one that supports your applications.

author: Dago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 06:07:18 am
content: I've been a Linux user for something close to ten years now. It will take a long time and a lot of patience to "learn" it (if you ever do learn it) but if you like to know whats happening under the hood and are willing to learn then it is worth it. If you do not need to do anything really complicated (like install whatever obscure software etc.) then Ubuntu or something might work very well out of the box.It will not be problem free and it will take a lot of time.I like to say that all operating systems are crap, just in different ways and you just need to select the flavor you dislike the least.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 06:27:36 am
content: Quote from: Dago on April 04, 2014, 06:07:18 amI like to think of it as different tools for different purposes. No such thing as a good all-around OS, and the morons who try to design it as such are the ones who tend to screw up their entire platform.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 07:06:50 am
content: One way to test out the waters would be:- Get "VirtualBox 4.3.10 for Windows hosts" fromthis here download page- Install that on your favorite windows machine- Pick a linux distribution of your choice (Ubuntu is a reasonable starting point)- Install linux inside virtual boxThat way you can test if it's your thing. If not, no harm done. Delete the virtual machine and that's that.And to pre-empt that discussion: yes yes, limitations blah blah, I know. With the virtual machine approach you can test out most important aspects, without requiring a bare metal install. Most notably, it allows you to see if you can get along with the desktop & it's applications. Or the lack thereof.Another advantage is you can try out several distro's more or less side by side, assuming you have some spare diskspace.Or if you have plenty of machines lying around, pick one, plonk in a spare disk, and install ubuntu or whatever distro on that.That said, I use dual boot. Debian for serious things, windows 7 for games. Stuff like Altium I run in a win7 virtualbox. The one snag is that 3D view doesn't work properly.Lots of applications work just fine using wine. For example yesterday I tried Sonnet Lite to simulate a stripline filter, and that worked in wine without any issues.

author: at2marty
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 06:32:56 pm
content: Quote from: Biff383 on April 03, 2014, 05:26:26 pmI have been using Linux for over ten years now. I've tried different versions of Linux/BSD over the years, and yes the learning process was painful at times. I currently prefer to use Linux Mint Debian Edition as my primary desktop Operating System. It may be a bit too "bleeding edge" for some people, but I've never had any problems.I usually recommend Linux Mint for someone starting out. 99% of the time everything "just works" straight out of the box. I used to like Ubuntu before they made the switch to the Unity interface. I wouldn't really recommend it if you want a "windows like" experience.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 06:50:41 pm
content: Quote from: at2marty on April 04, 2014, 06:32:56 pmhehe, Debian Testing, 'bleeding edge'. I prefer to call that 'moderately current'.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 07:02:00 pm
content: You basically have 2 major Linux "flavours", based on either Debian or Fedora, so basically try each one and see how you like them. Only real difference is how they update the system.Or you could try Slackware, but that is a whole other kettle of fish, and generally is for more advanced users, as it is not forgiving, but very flexible ( really really flexible such that no 2 installs are the same after a while as they get customised) and quite fast.Easiest is to install in a VM, as they almost all will work perfectly in any semi decent VM and perform well.You also have a choice of older stable or the latest stuff, that might break on occasion, but which always has the edge on newer hardware, until it becomes stable enough to be part of the main streams.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 09:10:03 pm
content: I find it interesting that most of the comments are related to learning Linux. This says something. It says that Linux is a end in itself more than a tool to do something else. That was my experience and it appears to still be quite a bit the same.So I was wondering if anybody had an answer to my earlier post about what distro can handle all the requirements I listed.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 09:12:40 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on April 04, 2014, 09:10:03 pmNo, it says that you need to learn to use the tool.QuoteYou mean these?QuoteAbsolutely any of them. You provide the software.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 09:23:44 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on April 04, 2014, 09:10:03 pmGentoo optimized for your hardware. Steep assed learning curve but then again Linux doesn't hold your hand like windows does. Their forums are some of the best when it comes to problem solving and I regularly use it in addition to the Arch forums to figure out what to do when things go wonky and I can't work it out on my own. I've been using Linux since around 1998 full time though so it seems like second nature to me. Archlinux is what I run to keep at the bleeding edge without running into dependency problems and having to compile everything I run. Not to say that I don't compile, it's just that I don't want to have to compile my entire system.

author: os40la
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 09:39:46 pm
content: Quote from: Biff383 on April 03, 2014, 07:16:13 pmI have worked with them when I was working at Harley Davidson. 12+ years ago. They used Allen Bradley PLC and Rockwell software. I hear ya. The OS's were a PIA. Been out of that for some time now. I would have thought it got better. However they were fun to work with (taking the OS issues out of the picture). Ladder Logic is a interesting programming environment.

author: Biff383
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 09:46:59 pm
content: I really appreciate all the feedback. You have all given me a lot to think about. I don't mind learning a new system, I just really hate a large company forcing me to change. I'll give Linux a shot.....hell I learned android. ...sorta.Sometimes I wish it was the way it was when I started, punch cards were easy.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 10:03:25 pm
content: Until you dropped a stack of them on the floor...

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 10:14:39 pm
content: Note that you don't have to blast your current install to poke around in Linux, there are many live CDs out there. You can just boot the CD and play around without installing to check it out. CD read and access rate are painfully slow, but you'll get the idea and it may help you pick which desktop environment that fits before you install.If you can't decide you can actually install many DEs, then just pick one when you log-in.

author: Biff383
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 10:23:46 pm
content: Yup plc's can be interesting, and a pain all at the same time.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 10:53:27 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on April 04, 2014, 10:14:39 pmWhat is a CD? Many distro's work/install from a bootable USB stick.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 10:54:36 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 04, 2014, 10:53:27 pmKids these days. Tsk.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 11:00:57 pm
content: Wow, just like the answers I always get from Linux lovers. I used Linux as exclusively as I could for a year, a complete entire year. I am no Windows baby whiner trying to do everything like Windows. I researched, tried, tried again, and reinstalled, and reinstalled again. I asked about a distro that could do the things I listed because in the end what you want to do depends on the distro you picked.Yes the distro does not do video editing nor audio nor gaming, I know that. If you want to do video editing then you pick a distro where the repositories have all the correct dependencies that don't make a mess of the installation. If you want to do CAd then you need to pick a distro that has no conflicts again. If you want to do printing to a specific printer then maybe you need to pick another different distro. If you want to use an NVIDIA video card and do video editing and use that printer and do gaming and do audio and music production and do image editing and and and and, good fucking luck.That is why I asked if anyone knew of a distro that could "do" all of the thing I listed. It was rather a rhetorical question because I believe nothing still exists in one distro. And thus my statement that learning to use Linux is bascially and end in itself. If you want to use one computer and one installation/boot image to do most of what I might want to do then Linux would be my last choice. I want to use my computer to do things, not use my computer to make Linux work for me.And before anyone calls me a noob or a Windows zombie....I started computing in 1981. I built my own memory expansion card from my own design for a Sinclair ZX81. I programmed in assembly for the MC6801, MC6809, MC68705 and others. I did systems integration and automation using MSDOS, Desqview, and others. I have worked in Linux on servers and databases.I hate MS, and I really wish there was a REAL alternative that wasn't some other BS super rich dictator of a company. Unfortunately there isn't a real solution except to run 2 or 3 or more separate installations or boot images in Linux to do what I want. Windows isn't perfect neither but I have yet to need to boot into another OS to do what I need to do in Windows.Like I said, many people have a great time with Linux, and I am glad for them. But try to do something different than the normal in Linux and forget getting work done, it will be all your time trying to get the Linux to do what you want instead.QuoteSo I can pick any distro I want RIGHT NOW, and make all of the programs and hardware work that I have listed? Really?

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 11:01:36 pm
content: I'm just barely old enough to remember putting homework on a 3.5" floppy in middle school. Like, four times in 6th grade. Then I got a 1GB flash drive and haven't touched a floppy since.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 11:13:19 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on April 04, 2014, 11:00:57 pmWindows has the same problems. Worse, in many cases, as you don't have theoptionof trying to fix it. Although sometimes you lack that option on Linux too. Blame proprietary software devs not knowing what they're doing. You probably want to update your experiences, too, because people have stumbled across this newfangled idea of package management. It works fairly well so long as you don't pick something intentionally desperately out of date (Debian...).QuoteGive you a guess how I feel working around the limitations of Windows. I won't get started on trying to deal with OS X, because that's a vicious argument (the only more rabid fanboys than Linux fanboys are Mac fanboys) and an unwinnable fight.QuoteThat's because people don't develop tools just for Linux. That development model more or less doesn't exist outside the world of Windows and OS X. Which is why you're still stuck using Windows.I use Linux day to day because, frankly, every primary tool I use works on it fine, and every other aspect of the OS is faster and more flexible to work with,ifyou put the effort into learning how.QuoteOnce again, how is this any different to Windows or OS X? Try and get a mouse to work properly (NO. FUCKING. ACCELERATION. FUCK.) under OS X. Have fun with that.QuoteAny distro can run software to do what you described. Whether that softwareexistsand isn'tbroken by 'design'is another issue entirely, and not the fault of the platform.Normal hardware compatibility more or less ceased to be a concern years ago, btw. Graphics cards? Check. Input devices? Check(some fancy tablets may be a problem). Printers? As a rule they work better than on Windows and don't involve 150MiB+ install packages and 45 minutes of your life to install a semi-functional proprietary tool to perform simple tasks. Sound cards? Mostly good, although Takashi is an imbecile, and one of these days I'm going to introduce him to my Thinkpad, at significant velocity.Ethernet, storage (SATA, SAS, SCSI, FC, etc), USB, 1394, all check. Wireless generally fine, some exceptions (Hello Broadcom.).

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 11:17:39 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on April 04, 2014, 11:00:57 pmhttps://www.archlinux.org/There's not a field of interest I've ever had that I couldn't get software running for on this OS. CAD, audio, video, odd assed hardware. Like I said, you'll have to put in the legwork with a distro like this. You don't get a full desktop out of this equation, you build your own. Sure, you can install full blown KDE or GNOME but to really get the full effect of a truly custom experience, you'll have to build it up yourself. I run a very minimal Fluxbox install because I don't want bling, I want power.This is the true difference between windows and Linux. There are ways to hack windows to do what you want or look anything unlike a windows install but with Linux, you can build your own from the ground up. Want to really learn how to put things together? Try doing an LFS/BLFS install. Once you learn the ins and outs of that, you'll realize that you've learned everything you ever wanted to know about managing a Linux install and will probably never go back to windows again because you'll have realized the true power that gets hidden from you via Redmond.The biggest issue is that you are stuck in a paradigm that removes your choice and advertises that you actually have one. Plus, Linux from 2007 is vastly different that it is today. Sure, there are going to be programs that you just can't get to work via wine but then again, if we all started using Linux, the vendors would most likely port. Eagle runs fine natively and if you want Altium to run in wine it will given a little research, I know, I've done it.I was also thinking that we come here to learn how to build hardware from scratch and do it for fun. I did the same thing with my OS and in the process learned a great deal about how it works.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 05, 2014, 04:45:32 am
content: OK, I have heard each year that THIS year, Linux is for the desktop. I heard all the way up to when I decided to try and make it work for me. No I wasn't lazy. I did compile my own kernel once. I did compile my programs at times to try to keep the dependencies working for other programs. I di have dual boot and triple boot running to try and make it work for me. Now I can maybe believe that after 7 more years it might actually work for me now so I will try again. I am not afraid to get my hands dirty, I am just afraid to waste a whole bunch of time again.