After 30 years of Windows... I'm switching to Apple Mac OS - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 01:46:29 am
content: A few days ago, I purchased my first ever product from Apple and this wasn't an impulse purchase either. It's taken me months of decision making and homework, and arguably many years of using Windows to come to this decision.I've posted on a number of threads now, that for the past 8 years or so, Linux has been my daily driver at home (this isn't going to change anytime soon). This is after growing up with MS-DOS and Windows 3.x in the early 1990's, right through to Windows 7 which was the last version of Windows I chose to use for myself.At work, I use Windows 10/11 because I'm essentially forced to, not because of some silly corporate policies (I'm the CIO/CTO) but because most software applications used in the digital forensics/cybersecurity industry run exclusively on Windows (with some designed for Linux). With the exception of Grayshift's GrayKey (that works via a web browser), all the big names are pretty much all Windows-only; Cellebrite UFED/Physical Analyser, Magnet AXIOM, X-Ways Forensics, etc...But that specialty workflow aside, most of my (and my employee's) daily requirements rely on a web browser and few office applications. After giving Windows 8/10/11 years of attention, I've come to the conclusion that it's all entirely rubbish and Microsoft have lost the plot. Everything from duplicated settings strewn all around the OS to stupid decisions essentially forcing people to use Microsoft's cloud environment, or excluding certain features unless you pay more, I've had enough. Even the absurdity which is Microsoft 365's back-end and the numerous administrative portals leaves little to be desired.I've hated on Apple for years, even going as far as calling them "toys" compared to other offerings. For me, iOS is still very much still playing catch-up with Android in some respects, but that's another matter. I'm not about to replace my Pixel 7 any time soon. But Mac OS has become a rather nice balance of what Windows should have been with a nice sprinkling of Linux/BSD. These days it's highly refined and simply "just works". A lot of the annoyances are gone and you're left with what is actually quite an elegant operating system. With the unbeaten battery life of the Apple M1 and M2-based laptops, in a slim form factor, it's hard to pass-up. Whilst Apple's M-series chips won't set the world on fire with multi-threaded performance, for most users, it's still a snappy and smooth experience for most workflows, and dare I say "quite adequate" overall. In the past, some of Apple's design decisions have been outright dumb, with utterly brain-dead placement of ports (or lack of I/O altogether) to high voltage rails running so close to data lines that even relatively minor liquid damage would fry the mainboard. I'm hoping a lot of these mistakes have been ironed out with their current offerings.At this stage, I won't be replacing my main workstation at work just yet, but it's a strong contender. I'm looking to virtualise our Windows-only forensics workflow leaving the gate open to all kinds of possibilities when it comes to the daily machines used by our staff. If someone wants to use a Mac, they should be able to, without limitations (or Linux or Windows for that matter). I'm of the view that if it means that end-users can do their jobs effectively at the expense of more work for the IT department, then so be it, I can always hire more staff to handle back-end tasks.For me, this is about being flexible and trying something entirely new, that I haven't done before. I'll come back to you after 3 months with some further thoughts.I share this because I'm sure there are plenty of others in the same position as me, whether it be just for their personal computing, or for more professional applications. I'd also love to hear from others who made "the switch" before me.1 Week Update:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-computing/after-30-years-of-windows-im-switching-to-apple-mac-os*/msg4978534/#msg49785342 Month Update:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-computing/after-30-years-of-windows-im-switching-to-apple-mac-os*/msg5050360/#msg5050360

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 02:25:45 am
content: What took you so long? :-)My personal journey has gone VAX/VMS -> MacOS -> Linux when RedHat on CD became available (PPro 200, Athlon 700, 1800, 3200) -> OS X when it came out -> OS X on Hackintosh on i7-860 then i7-4790K -> linux on i7-6700K then TR-2990WX to OS X on M1 (still use the TR daily via ssh).I've sometimes bought hardware with DOS or Windows pre-installed but it's never stayed longer than needed to verify that the hardware isn't DoA. Well, until my current 6 core Zen2 Thinkpad, bought this time in 2020, which still has Windows 10. I was going to put Linux on it, but WSL2 works ok. I only use Windows itself for web browsing (Chrome). I don't use it much at all. Just when travelling or when I have to sit in a cafe for a couple of hours waiting for a vehicle to be serviced or something like that.Had to use NT 3.5.1 on PPro200 at one job, with VC++. That was kind of ok. Except for the PVCS. That really sucked. Had to use Server 2003 at another job. It was ok once I turned off the stupid XP UI. And we were using SVN there, which was better.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 02:30:29 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 16, 2023, 01:46:29 amUm, thats exactly what they did do. Unless you go for comparisons to massively parallel server/workstation processors using 2-3-4 times the power and/or price?

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 02:41:45 am
content: Quote from: Someone on July 16, 2023, 02:30:29 amLast time I checked, Apple maxes out at 16 performance cores.  That's plenty for most people, and the multi-threaded performance is very good compared to x86 with similar numbers of cores.Doesn't compete against 32/64/128 core servers of course. the efficiency cores add about as much performance as hyperthreading on x86 i.e. maybe 15% or 20%. Better than a poke in the sys with a blunt stick, but only just.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 02:47:17 am
content: Mac OS is well polished and sleek, but I only use it for certain software. Other than that, Linux is far more flexible.The big hurdle for staying with Macs for me is the hardware is expensive, but carries a lot of financial risk when it comes to warranty work, coupled with the difficulty with 3rd party repair. So it's a very unbalanced risk. Not to mention getting a hardware combination that you need for your purposes is difficult unless you accept a huge premium.Then there's the security aspect of the OS. Some time back there was the issue of a daemon scanning local files in order to upload data to apple servers.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 02:56:34 am
content: I don't find Apple's hardware that expensive actually, unless you compare it with entry-level cheap PC crap.What I don't like much is being tied to very specific hardware, with little to no possibility of any upgrade or modification. But that's something you also rarely get with a PC laptop anyway these days, so I'm more talking about the desktop computers.So, in terms of desktop computers, Apple machines are expensive, but just look at how much an equivalent PC machine will cost if you use quality parts. Not that much less. The upside is that you get to choose from a very wide selection of parts, and upgradability is also largely better.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 03:04:46 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on July 16, 2023, 02:41:45 amMacBook Pro with M2 max, vs say Dell Precision with 1370P or 13900H or a HP ZBook with AMD Ryzen 9 7940HS ? You'd need to head up into a 13950HX to "best" the M2 Max and only by a narrow margin (ignoring those power and price costs).

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 05:27:43 am
content: Quote from: John B on July 16, 2023, 02:47:17 amI've been buying Mac desktops personally since 1989 (IIcx) and laptops since 1992 (PB100) and with the exception of battery replacement I have *never* had any failures requiring repair, in or out of warranty. I still have Macs built in the mid to late 90s and they work perfectly if I plug them in.The 2990WX Linux PC I had built for me in April 2019 by a reputable outfit using good quality  components required the Corsair Hydro Series H100-110 AIO cooler to be replaced in May 2021 due to pump failure. Probably could have got that fixed under warranty, but the machine and I are on a different continent now.QuoteThis can be true. I just want a fast CPU and a reasonably hefty amount of RAM. On their machines with high end CPUs Apple tends to build in (and therefore make me pay for) vastly higher spec GPUs and fancy high speed I/O than I need.That's why I built i7-860 and then i7-4790K Hackintoshes. First of all, I made my boxes six months before Apple used those chips -- and when they did use them, it was in the top end 27" iMac in both cases. Lovely machines with truly beautiful displays. But I already had a nice display (at that time, a 30" 2560x1600 Apple display bought used for $600) and no need to pay for a new one each time.Now I have a Samsung 32" 4k display which is even nicer than the old 30" from 2004. I've used it on several machines already, and I'm sure will use it on several more.QuoteCan you provide a reference for that? I don't recall it. as far as I could tell! It cost me US$4,795.84 all up.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 06:09:58 am
content: Quote from: Someone on July 16, 2023, 02:30:29 amIt depends entirely on the workflow. For performance per watt, they did an amazing job. However if you're after something beyond some basic video editing, you'll need to opt for the M2 Pro's or better (and I certainly wouldn't be trying heavy workloads on their laptops with minimal cooling capacity).In single-threaded performance, the standard Apple 8-core M2 CPU sits somewhere around the higher-spec Intel i5's and the AMD Ryzen 5/lower-spec Ryzen 9. If you compare the Apple M2 with something like the Intel i5-12600K in multi-threaded applications, the Intel is roughly around 60% faster. The goal of the M2 chips that you find in the MacBook models isn't blazing performance, it's about providing a reasonable experience while maximising battery life. The M2 is far more power efficient. That Intel CPU isn't expensive either, you're looking around the AUD$300 mark.If you're in the top-end of the market and after maximum performance, you're still going to be reaching for an Intel Xeon, high-end i9 or an AMD EPYC or high-end Ryzen 9 over Apple's current M2 offerings. What the M3 will bring, that's yet to be seen.Apple's marketing machine is a powerful one. They boast 12x faster than the fastest Intel (but only in the old Intel-based MacBook Air's, not the current Intel line-up). They also claim twice the performance of an Intel i7 in a PC, but that test was using an unspecified i7 with built-in Intel Iris Xe graphics, nothing exactly to write home about there.Quote from: John B on July 16, 2023, 02:47:17 amAbsolutely, which is why it won't be replacing my Linux desktop machine at home, anytime soon.Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 16, 2023, 02:56:34 amI paid AUD$2569 for the 15" MacBook Air with M2, 16GB RAM and 512 GB SSD. That's with my university staff discount. The same machine retails for AUD$2799, which to me, is quite an expensive laptop, especially considering there are better performers out there. However raw performance isn't what matters most to me personally. I have other machines for that if I need to process something that needs more grunt. It's a machine I will primarily use for travel, for its portability and long runtime.Quote from: John B on July 16, 2023, 02:47:17 amI've mentioned this before but Australia has pretty powerful consumer laws when it comes to repairs/refunds/replacements of products and Apple have a reputation to uphold. Manufacturer warranty is almost a bit of a moot point here. If you spend a decent amount of money on a high quality machine and it fails just outside the warranty period, by law you could still be entitled to a free repair, or replacement, particularly if the failure was due to design or manufacturing. Apple has been smacked by the Australian Government several times when it came to shoddy quality iPhones etc... and were even forced to place specific wording on their website, particularly when it came to pushing you additional cost for AppleCare. In reality, AppleCare doesn't offer much (if anything at all) that the law doesn't already provide you for free.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 06:33:09 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 16, 2023, 06:09:58 amYou're comparing a machine with 4 P cores vs one with 6 P cores!Try the 10 core M2 Pro, which at least has the same 6 P core configuration as the Intel chip. In an otherwise same-configuration Mac Mini  that adds $300. Or for another $300 you can get the 8 P core version, which will definitely be faster than that i5-12600K. pretty sure the increments are the same in laptops too

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 07:05:24 am
content: Good for you. Nobody cares.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 07:13:32 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on July 16, 2023, 06:33:09 amThen compare it to something like the i3-13100F. In terms of aggregate performance, they are roughly on-par, with the Intel beating out in some multi-threaded applications. Again, it depends entirely on your workflow.Whilst the M2 is a good performer, it's not designed to be the fastest. It's designed to be low-power but still bring about decent performance in a thin, lightweight design. There is no one machine that is the best in every category, something has to give and usually it's lower power efficiency or larger physical size and weight. As I said, the M2 is perfectly adequate for most users, even pushing it hard for short periods it seems to handle fine.Quote from: tszaboo on July 16, 2023, 07:05:24 amIt seemed like you cared enough to click on the thread and even post a reply.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 07:26:53 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 16, 2023, 06:09:58 amThe M2 spans almost an order of magnitude in performance between the bottom end model and the top end. As bruce notes above you're comparing a mid range part from a competitor to the bottom end M2.Sure you bought a laptop with the bottom end M2 thats not bottom end system price. But to compare that to a mid range desktop system and say there is some gap in performance (you called out multithreaded in particular) is completely misleading, more so than apple comparing the old heavily throttled intel processor that apple were replacing in that model line (a better comparison would have been the then current intel chips at the same power/price segment).M2 Mac mini $1000 AUD geekbench multithread 9702M2 Pro Mac mini $2000 AUD geekbench multithread 12085M2 Pro Mac mini $2450 AUD geekbench multithread 14208...i5-12700k geekbench multithread 11644i5-13600K geekbench multithread 14689A greybox build might come in cheaper for the performance but as brucehoult says above you can mackintosh on that route. The specific workload is of course the end determinant, geekbench synthetic numbers tend to favour apple silicon compared to most real world tasks. But there is no huge gap in performance until you start looking at the 20-30-64 core power monsters, for which there is no apple silicon equivalent.Quote from: Halcyon on July 16, 2023, 07:13:32 amIgnoring that the M2 is a wide span of performance that almost perfectly overlaps with the current desktop class intel processors. M2 Ultra is right in the ballpark of a 13900k

author: Bryn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 07:30:53 am
content: It must've taken you the full courage to finally make that decision after such a long time thinking about it... would you have made the switch sooner though?Although for myself, I had been indecisive on switching to macOS for eight years now, really to just get away from Windows and what it had become over the years (even though I'm lucky to have Windows 7 for so long), plus that I'm quite savvy with Macs just by college experience.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 07:41:14 am
content: Quote from: Bryn on July 16, 2023, 07:30:53 amI don't know if "courage" is the right word. I think I feel more disappointment in that the OS's that I grew up with and got to know intimately have turned into what is it today. I probably picked the right time for me to switch over to Apple, but don't get me wrong, it's nice and shiny now, but in a few months time I might find it too tedious/annoying/frustrating, who knows. At the moment, I'm experimenting and learning.Windows 7 lasted me a long time (just like Windows XP did back in the day), but it's just not feasible anymore. Even if you set aside the lack of updates, a lot of software simply won't run on it anymore and it's not really an option in the corporate world (particularly a cybersecurity company).Whilst Linux is great and I would like to see more Linux workstations at work, it's not a sensible option both from the perspective of the user or our staff who have to maintain them. As I mentioned, Linux will still be my primary machine I do most of my work from at home. Android is still my choice of mobile operating system, I don't see that changing anytime soon.As I said to my mates who gave me grief (albeit they were nice about it), I'm nothing if not flexibleAs for what the future holds for Windows, unless a miracle happens and Microsoft do a complete 180 degree turn, I don't see myself ever going back there and my hopes for having Windows workstations on every desk at work are quickly dwindling as well.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 07:50:51 am
content: I tend to use Windows because I have to.I develop software for Windows and have done since Windows first arrived.Windows is terrible. I recently tried to add a laptop to my network and had to set settings all over the place.There should be just one button to add items to the network.So called improvements to Windows tend to be just changing this for changing things sake.And quite often the changes are for the worse.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 07:54:57 am
content: Quote from: Someone on July 16, 2023, 07:26:53 amYour first machine has 8 GB RAM 256 GB SSD.The other two both have 16 GB RAM 512 GB SSD.Equalising the RAM and SSD brings the first machine to $1600. AUD. Which seems fair, assuming you're not just trying to get the cheapest possible machine.Each 2 additional P cores costs $400 or $450 AUD (it's $300 USD for each step in the US store)

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 08:14:55 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on July 16, 2023, 07:54:57 amWhich is a far better comparison than... [non specific benchmark] of [non specific configuration] of INTEL IS FASTER DUHComputers have multidimensional performance/specifications. Processor speed is one that could be optimised for, just as memory or storage bandwidth, or GPU compute. But Halcyon seems to be stuck complaining about their laptop that adds cost in all sorts of ways other than its lowest end processor available, is somehow poorly comparing to a mid range desktop processor on processing performance. Completely ignoring that there are other options which do offer (much) more processing power and might be a better comparison.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 08:23:02 am
content: I think if it had not been for the battery life of these new Apple machines, I don't think I'd be sold. There are some days where I spend many hours traveling and to have a machine I can access everything from and not having to worry about when I next need to plug in, is a huge advantage. The Dell XPS 13 I had was reasonable (compared to some PCs), but still not nearly enough.Quote from: Someone on July 16, 2023, 08:14:55 amOn the contrary, this is based on research I've done and Apple's own tests. I haven't had the machine long enough to really be able to see what works (or what doesn't) for me. That's also the clear takeaway, my experience does not reflect yours and vice versa. Cost is less of an important factor for me, but could be for others. Cost is just one consideration when buying or designing a computer.I haven't "ignored" anything, in fact, the whole reason for this thread is to share with you that I'm flexible enough to consider an entirely new platform. Ask me 10 years ago whether I would have bought a Mac and the answer would have been "no" straight away.I dare say there are plenty of other people who have recently come to this same decision making process, or might even be considering it now. At the end of the day, a computer is just another tool. I don't have an allegiance to any particular brand. If a product ticks to the most boxes for me, then so be it. I'm not about to go out and buy a machine that aces all the benchmarks for a particular game, because it's entirely irrelevant to me and I'd probably end up with something I wasn't happy with.It just shits me to tears when people have to jump down other's throat's because they believe their opinion is somehow more important, or more relevant. But welcome to the world of IT. It's been like this longer than I've been alive. This thread is about discussing my experiences with my particular workflow, nothing more. I'm not trying to sell anything, nor convince anyone they should follow in my footsteps. I'm just offering my objective opinion and if it helps just 1 person, then great. Happy days. I'm not going to be getting into a pissing contest with people about whose is bigger/faster/has more girth, if that's you, go buy an Audi and post videos about it on TikTok.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 09:14:57 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 16, 2023, 08:23:02 amYes you have and are adding a very long winded avoidance of the basic point:Quote from: Halcyon on July 16, 2023, 01:46:29 amM series, multithreaded performance, your choice of performance and framing.There is this thing called the M2 Ultra, an M series processor (and the M1 ultra predecessor) which is completely comparable to the top end intel desktop chips of their generation, on multithreaded compute as the metric (without going into task specific hardware cores).If you want to point and laugh at misleading/optimistic comparisons the other way:Quote from: Halcyon on July 16, 2023, 06:09:58 amThen you'll be leaving your own equally ridiculous "comparisons" open to criticism.Apple M2 silicon covers an almost identical performance footprint of the 13th generation intel desktop chips from top to bottom, and hits similar points in performance per $$$ or per watt to the 13th generation laptop chips, AMD similar again. There is no significant lead either way.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 11:19:40 am
content: If you would like to start your own thread talking about how wonderful the M2 Ultra is, then be my guest. It's out of scope of this discussion.

author: radiogeek381
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 05:47:14 pm
content: I switched from windows (and Linux) to mac os for presentation and media stuff around 2007. But I still do most of my software development on Linux (or in Jupyter on Mac or Linux).My switch to MacOS was motivated almost entirely by Keynote. I was chief engineer for a company and found myself on the road doing marketing and sales presentations once the first product was out. Our marketing department showed and convinced me that Keynote produced better presentation material than Powerpoint. They were right. (Even older presentations imported from Powerpoint into Keynote looked better. And libre office wasn't ready for prime-time.)My 19" MacBook Pro was a good traveler, still fit on an economy class table, and had a nice display. As for cost, it wasn't all that much more than a similarly capable Windows laptop and the price was dwarfed by the cost of the MATLAB license anyway.Nowadays I don't travel, so my MacOS platform is a mini. It is my "daily driver" + NoMachine to get to the Linux boxes. The primary use at this point is Keynote + iMovie + Audacity + Jupyter to produce instructional materials.The major disappointment has been the decline in the quality of Apple technical support over the years. When things go well, life is good. But the genius bar is pretty inconvenient when your problem gets moderately complicated. And relying on the "community" through the apple forums generally gets the same kind of responses other OSes get: "It doesn't happen to me" and "I don't know why you would do that, so you shouldn't."But, on the whole, I'm pretty happy with the MacOS experience.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2023, 08:28:01 am
content: Thanks for sharing your experience radiogeek381.I think no matter which manufacturer you ultimately pick, you'll probably need to deal with their support at some stage. Most recently I've dealt with Lenovo and Dell. I mean, they are OK, but I feel Lenovo have become too bloated and it seems that no one talks to each other in their organisation anymore. Long gone are the days of the IBM-owned ThinkPads (they were wonderful).I'm going to reserve all my judgement and opinions on this new Mac (and Mac OS) until I've given it a proper go. Maybe initially after a few weeks, but perhaps even months from now. I don't think you can really get to know a new environment in just a week or two, that would be an unfair.My only comment so far is that the process from order to getting things up has been seamless.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2023, 09:11:26 am
content: Welcome to Mac-clubThe main reason I switched from Windows to Mac is similar to the mentioned Keynote; in my case it's for Finalcut!The second reason is that with Apple Silicon the battery can sustain up to 14 hours of moderate work and this is essential when you're on the move. This has nothing to do with the Finalcut, which I usually use in my hotel room or on an airplane when you have the charging socket, but it has a lot to do with my main duties outdoors, where the nearest recharge is at about 100Km.p.s.I sold my Lenovo X Carbon/i7 2017.You are right, new Lenovo laptops have lost their luster

author: thermistor-guy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2023, 04:50:12 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 16, 2023, 02:56:34 amThe upgrade/mod obstacles are deal breakers for me.On my home network, I have desktops and laptops bought in 2007 still running fine, with repairs and upgrades keeping them highly useable. Most are running Mint or Debian now.I buy motherboards, laptops, tablets, and the like with future upgrades in mind. The only appliances I buy are rpis, because they are so cheap. I use them for specific network tasks.I didn't like Apple's "walled garden" approach in 1990, when I bought my first PC, and I still don't. It's not for me.

author: aeberbach
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2023, 05:03:28 am
content: Except that you care enough to tell us you don't care...

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2023, 08:04:56 am
content: Quote from: thermistor-guy on July 19, 2023, 04:50:12 amthe "open garden approach" of PCs offers apparent and illusory freedom, often used to make you buy a PC, but in fact it's nothing but polluted by tons of technically bad choices that become standard "de facto", to make you buy a PC.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2023, 01:00:25 am
content: 1 Week UpdateOverall, I'm impressed and suitably happy.In terms of the actual build quality, look and feel of the device, it's pretty hard to beat. Very few laptops are designed as nice as the current MacBook models. Small little touches such as the way the display "feels" when you open and close it really give it a premium quality. As I bought the fan-less MacBook Air, there are no openings to get clogged with dust (which was a bit of an issue with my ThinkPad and required vacuuming every now and then). The seperate MagSafe charging port is nice, but you can also charge via USB-C if desired. My only minor gripe (which is common across all metal-bodied MacBook's I've used) is that when plugged into the mains via the included power adapter and MagSafe cable, you do get a little bit of that "tingle" when using the TouchPad. For some people, that might be distracting.One of the things that seriously impressed me was the audio; hands down the best speakers I've ever listened to in a laptop and the slim size makes it equally as impressive. There is actually a decent amount of low-to-mid frequency response and the volume is very adequate. No noticeable distortion or rattles either. If you're the type of user that likes to watch videos/movies on your laptop, you won't be disappointed.The LCD display is also lovely and sharp (on-par with my 4K Lenovo ThinkVision display) although despite being a 15" LCD, the native resolution is "only" 1710x1107. For some people this might be a little large in appearance, however it will go all the way up to 2880x1864 and seems to scale quite well while maintaining clarity. It has no problem driving the built-in LCD and my external monitor (at 3840x2160) however I mostly keep the lid closed and use the single monitor while "docked". Transitioning between a single external display and an "extended" display is quick and seamless (unlike Windows where you have to give it a moment to it to re-arrange/re-size things).I'm still getting used to MacOS, for example, I'm forever pressing CTRL+C instead of Command-C etc... I'm sure it can be changed, I just haven't looked yet. I did tweak the UI a little bit. I found the default setting of the "dock" at the bottom of the screen too large and obtrusive by default, but that can all be changed (or hidden completely). I actually don't mind the dock. I much prefer it over the native "Launchpad" application. I mostly use either the dock for launching my frequent applications, or the Spotlight Search function. Most settings and items are in logical places, I only had to Google a couple of things.In terms of performance, for the most part it's snappy and responsive. I have encountered some minor slow downs in the UI but it typically picks back up again very quickly. I have two user profiles that are both usually logged in with applications running in the background. Switching between them is easy but there is a little bit of a delay. At the moment, with a reasonable amount of things open/running, I'm using a little over 12 GB of the 16 GB RAM in this unit. I haven't encountered any issues with running out of memory (yet), however if you're considering the 8 GB version, you may run into some dramas. (I have used the current base model of the iMac and even with a relatively small number of applications running, it would throw up low memory messages.)On the topic of performance, I did notice that the CPU while being 8 cores, it split between 4 "performance" and 4 "efficiency" cores. I'm not exactly sure how they differ, but I'm presuming that most of the time, it's ticking along using the 4 more efficient cores to get the long battery life. I wouldn't say I've really pushed this machine hard yet as I've mostly only been using it for video playback and office applications.Initial set-up was relatively quick and easy. You're given the option to create an Apple ID, but you also get the option to skip this step entirely. I did run into a few problems where certain options didn't turn on properly without any indications of anything being "wrong". Those were the "Find my Mac" and the "Advanced Data Protection" (end-to-end encryption) functions of the iCloud account. When I went to enable them, they would either do nothing, or pop up with a dialog box saying that some other options needed to be changed, but clicking continue didn't do anything. I eventually found out after an hour of tinkering that by adding my YubiKey's as a second factor of authentication, both options enabled properly (even though I had my phone as an MFA option). I'll chop that up to minor UI bugginess. This was on MacOS Ventura 13.4.1, maybe it's been fixed in 13.5?There is also a little bit of bloatware that comes with MacOS, some of which can be easily removed, while some can't. For example, Apple TV, Podcasts, News and Stock market applications are things I'll never use but seem to be system applications and don't have the option to remove them.Finally, the battery life is probably the most impressive part of this machine. I was watching The Office in full screen last night and the battery was still sitting at 100% after one full 30 minute episode. I'm travelling later this week with limited opportunities to charge during the day, so that will be a good test of how much I can get done on a single charge.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2023, 03:28:44 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 25, 2023, 01:00:25 amDon't change it! I'm constantly switching between Mac and Linux terminals on the same machine / keyboard. It's not a problem, I automatically know by context which to use where -- don't even have to think about it.In fact it's even better, because lots of the emacs/bash/readline keystrokes work everywhere in MacOs as well as the Mac keystrokes e.g. C-a / C-e to go to the start and end of the line, C-k to cut to the end of the line, and C-y to paste. Works in the web browser I'm typing this in, in Terminal.app, in any dialog box e.g. that Spotlight search box you mentioned ...QuoteRoughly speaking, I put the efficiency cores as worth about as much as hypedthreading on Intel chips. i.e. all four efficiency cores put together give less performance than one performance core. Doing 'make -j8' is going to be lucky to cut build times by 20% best case, compared to `make -j4` -- and usually a lot less.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2023, 05:43:16 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 25, 2023, 01:00:25 amPast adaptors were hybrid Class I and Class II depending on which mains plug was attached to the adaptor, the long "extension" cable had the mains earth connected through and eliminated that tingle.Quote from: Halcyon on July 25, 2023, 01:00:25 amThe battery meter will lie at the high end and doesn't match accurately to remaining time. But video decode when offloaded to the hard silicon decoders is very light on power.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 09:34:45 am
content: It's been just under 2 months now and I can't see myself going back to anything other than MacOS now. This doesn't mean I've bought into the whole "Apple ecosystem" as I'm still very much an Android user (and still don't see that changing anytime soon, unless iOS miraculously gets less irritating and inflexible).The transition has been seamless and aside from some minor UI glitches, I'm absolutely loving the simplicity and having things "just work" the moment I open my laptop lid. Since buying this, aside from initial OS updates, I haven't had to reboot this machine at all. Sleep/hibernate modes work (almost) seamlessly. I say "almost" as there is a bug in the current version of MacOS which means that for users that use multiple user profiles (one for work, work for personal) and dock/undock external displays all the time, "new" resolutions aren't pushed into effect across every user (it needs a close/open) of the laptop display.Anyone who has used Linux for a decent amount of time is fully versed with all the glitches and issues that brings with updates, broken packages, drivers etc... As much as I love Linux, I don't have time for that shit. So much so, I'm actually considering buying a Mac desktop machine. I'm just waiting to see what Apple does with their iMac and whether they'll go to the M2 or (as rumours have it) Apple will release their iMacs with the updates M3 chip.The lack of "charge anxiety" is also a very welcome change. I've been travelling interstate for over 2 weeks now and have probably plugged this machine in 2 to 3 times at most just to top up the battery. It's never dipped below 50%.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 09:51:51 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on July 19, 2023, 08:04:56 amIt's the source of all hardware and software innovation, period. Even now in its dying days, Apple does nothing but take the innovation from PC tarnished by lack of competent ecosystem (Microsoft is dysfunctional, Google is polluted by datamining and some poor initial choices in Android licensing) and perfects it.The freedom is very real and once it's gone, it will become a very sad and boring environment. It will also hasten the death of easily available electronics components, who needs distrubutors when you are begging for some alms from a single vertically integrated manufacturer which rules the entire consumer electronic ecosystem?PS. I don't think vertical integration is necessary to compete, Microsofts near complete anarchy while it did spawn massive innovation is no longer tenable, but Chromebooks as a model for hardware/OS development works really well. Shame the focus on datamining drags it down and keeps it low end.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 10:34:01 pm
content: Well keep us in the loop as to which desktop solution you go for, it sounds like either the iMac or the mini. Personally I think laptops or other mobile devices are apples strength. Their desktop offerings are a net negative. The baseline reasonable priced units are woefully lacking in ram and storage, upgrading them is poor value for money, higher tiered CPUs have the same issue and upgrading them puts you in sky high budget territory.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 11:00:08 pm
content: Nice to see another convert. Once you Mac you don’t go back.Someone mentioned desktop solutions. I’ve got an M1 14” MBP, the base model, which is fine for me. This is plugged into a Studio Display and used with a BT keyboard (Apple Magic Keyboard) and mouse (Logitech MX master 3). Gives you the flexibility of both.Regarding RAM and storage, it works a little different at least in the RAM department and can’t be compared to windows at all. I could get by with an 8Gb machine fine. In fact I had an ass end M1 Mac mini for ages which never had any problems with anything other than Lightroom and they fixed that now.My workload is not EE stuff though. It’ll quite happily run kicad and LTspice though which is good enough for a lot of work. Mine is a Maxima, LaTeX, admin and photography machine really.Idealisms aside it works and doesn’t fuck me around.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 05:02:54 am
content: Quote from: John B on September 08, 2023, 10:34:01 pmYeh I tend to agree, even their baseline laptops are really lacking, but, there are always those who will pay for the absolute bare minimum and to be honest, the performance of the current laptops, even with the smallest and slower SSD drive is perfectly fine. 8GB RAM is suitable for most basic users, particularly as MacOS (and also Windows 10/11 I believe?) makes use of compression in RAM. I went with 16 GB (as I tend to use a lot of applications at the same time) and also the faster 512 GB SSD.I'll definitely let you know what I decide to do with the desktop. At the moment, I'm docking my laptop to a Lenovo 4K monitor and it works perfectly fine, but I would hate to have my laptop lost/damage/go faulty and not have a suitable backup.

author: aeberbach
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 08:46:47 am
content: Quote from: Marco on September 08, 2023, 09:51:51 amDying days eh? Feels like I’ve been reading that Apple is doomed since the Apple II. So what is it this time that will destroy the world’s most valuable company?

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 09:36:58 am
content: A trillion dollar company could wait for you to finish reading the entire post before defending it. It's not logical to assume I was talking about Apple.I replied to this :QuoteLater in the post I said :QuoteSo, I was clearly talking about PC dying.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 07:24:04 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 16, 2023, 01:46:29 amDo you think that was not deliberate?Microsoft has been removing features from Windows which become a performance drag with cloud storage compared to local storage, when this was a solved problem more than a decade ago for those of us who were using local storage. For example the status bar which reports free space on the currently selected drive, and sortable folder sizes.Unfortunately Apple is no better, and could be argued to have started it, although it is an old business practice.Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 16, 2023, 02:56:34 amI build my own systems with lots of ECC RAM and local storage at perhaps 10% the cost of an equivalent Apple system, if such even existed.

author: aeberbach
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 11:14:42 pm
content: I was wrong, but it seems even more bizarre to talk about “PC” as a thing that ever could die. It can slowly morph into something else (as it has always done) but it is never going away.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 11:45:42 pm
content: Quote from: aeberbach on September 09, 2023, 11:14:42 pmWith the needs of so many consumers met by tablets and phones and game consoles, I think the PC market will move back toward catering to enthusiasts and businesses, like the personal computer market during the time of CP/M and early ISA.Will that be enough to sustain personal computer development as it exists now? No, but hopefully some of the development costs will be shared with other markets as is the case now anyway. And if that does not happen, then ARM will become the next PC processor, except that requires someone other than Apple to produce ARM based PCs.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 11:59:29 am
content: Quote from: aeberbach on September 09, 2023, 11:14:42 pmThe openness of PCs was driven by the happenstance combination of DOS/Windows running on kitbashed computers because IBM screwed up on one hand and servers demanding relative openness of hardware to run various operating systems on the other.Apple is vertically integrated and cloud is becoming vertically integrated as well. Apple can never provide a path for open PCs to survive, the Asahi linux people are either completely delusional or are intentionally divide and conquering for Apple. Apple will at some point start having encrypted code, what's left then for Asahi to reverse engineer? Even with Asahi Linux, there is no diversified market for the hardware.There are three ways I can see PCs surviving :- Microsoft gets back into mobile phones and embraces the Chromebook model of platform development.- Google splits off advertising and starts using the Chromebook model for mobile phones too.- Governments splits Apple/Google up and disallows consumer electronic ecosystems under control of a single company.Ignoring government for a moment, the future of consumer electronics is highly integrated ecosystems with centralized quality control ... I'd prefer that control to be handled through relatively open Chromebook type development, but if it isn't it will be closed by Apple.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 12:51:59 pm
content: With the emergence of cloud services and now resource hungry AI, we have gone full circle and are back to the old time mainframe days. Today, our PCs basically act like terminals for centralized resources, and we pay through the nose for them via subscriptions.I wonder if the pendulum could swing back again at some point, where a new generation of PCs become powerful enough to run local and secure services including AI at an overall attractive total cost of ownership for various purposes, compared to the dozens of cloud subs required to run a full suite of applications these days?

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 01:21:14 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on September 09, 2023, 11:45:42 pmAPIs are infinitely more important to provide portability between platforms than ISAs ... and Apple uses their own for that. Apple using ARM creates near zero incentive to use ARM any where else. Even the optimizations for their compiler will hardly carry.x86 is not inherently a problem either, battery life is a system design issue. There were cheap Chromebooks doing 12+ hour browsing/video many years ago. The Windows PC simply has too little central quality control and branding consistency, almost everyone compromises for benchmark performance and battery life is an afterthought ... because it works best for advertising the individual laptop, even when it's disastrous for the Windows brand.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 08:30:43 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on September 09, 2023, 07:24:04 pmYeah, my comment above was more about the laptops, which are not *that* much more expensive than *similar*-quality and performance PC laptops, which get pretty expensive too.Now things get rather different with "desktop" solutions. The Mac Studio line is already a bit expensive for the specs, although they pack a lot of power in a small package with relatively low power consumption.A decently powerful desktop PC with quality components will also be in the $2K range easily.Things start getting really unreasonable with their Mac Pro line - it's probably the closest to what you are talking about here, and yes prices are really, really high.But getting a similarly spec'ed system at 10% of the price of a Mac Pro? If you're buying used parts, yes (but then comparing used stuff with brand new stuff is not reasonable). If you're building one with only new parts, it's not likely. Maybe more around 25%-30% or something like that - still much more affordable, admittedly.And yes, the Mac Pro used to have models with Xeon CPUs and ECC RAM. The new models seem to be based on the M2 only, although I'm not 100% sure - maybe the Xeon-based ones are still in the catalog. If someone knows the Apple offering better than I do, they can confirm or not.

author: Clear as mud
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 11:15:36 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on September 09, 2023, 09:36:58 amSorry, but it's not clear at all for those of us who pay attention to English grammar. Any sentence starting with "Even now in its dying days, Apple ..." is clearly talking about Apple dying, no matter what the rest of the sentence says. And if the rest of the sentence contradicts the first part that says Apple is dying, it becomes very hard to read and the grammar-nazi reader is left wondering if you even know what you're talking about at all.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 11:25:03 pm
content: Perhaps, but you should really show it through logic and argument.It is my observation that the people most convinced of Apple's advantages are the most vehemently opposed when I point out they are heading to monopoly status.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 12:18:38 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 10, 2023, 08:30:43 pmThe Mac Pro, and now Mac Studio, are good value if you need the things that are in them, such as powerful GPUs and masses of fast I/O.As a programmer, not a video editor or animator, Idon'tneed that stuff -- I just need a fast CPU and a decent amount of RAM with some kind of video card that can throw a lot of high quality text up on a 4K screen and enough GPU to play YouTube (and Zoom...). And a TB or so of storage, but it doesn't need to be stupidly fast.Way back when (2010) my then employer kindly supplied me with a top of the line 8 core 2.26 GHz Mac Pro to use to build their code (Firefox). It was pretty damn expensive. And, sadly, enough of the build process is single-threaded that it wasn't particularly fast. I built my own quad core i7-860, Hackintoshed it, and overclocked it from 2.8 to 3.4 GHz and it was a lot faster than the Mac Pro FOR BUILDING SOFTWARE. And cost a lot less too.Six months later Apple came out with an iMac with the same CPU. That would be perfect for my needs, except 1) I already had the ugly PC tower, and 2) the iMac came wth an amazing super high quality 27" screen which is great, except that every time you get a new iMac you have to pay for a new screen. At that time I had an Apple 30" 2560x1600 screen which I'd bought 2nd hand and used with a series of different computers for nearly ten years.When the i7-4790K came out I built a Hackintosh using one of those. And .. six months later Apple came out with an iMac with the same CPU.Same story when I built my next machine (reusing case and power supply and ...) using an i7-6700K. Six months later Apple made an iMac using it.And so on ... Apple has even sold iMacs with 8 and 10 core i9s, though by that stage my custom PC was a 32 core 2990wx ThreadRipper (which I use to this day).In Core2Duo days you could buy Apple's fastest CPU in Mac Mini form. That's perfect for me. As easy to transport as a laptop, but much cheaper. Plug it into whatever screen you want, wherever you are.But as we got into i7s the Mac Mini fell behind (and NUC wasn't any better).With Apple Silicon, you can again get Mac Mini with pretty fast CPUs.I'm still using (and typing this on) an original November 2020 4+4 core Mac Mini with 16 GB RAM. But you can now get a Mac Mini with up to 12 cores (8 performance plus 4 efficiency), which makes a pretty decent developer machine. With 32 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD that comes to $2199. Getting the same specs in a laptop needs a 14" MBP for $2899.Or, incidentally, a base Mac Studio with the same CPU and RAM and SSD is $2199 exactly the same as the high end Mac Mini. But you can also double the CPU to an M2 Ultra with 16 performance cores (and 8 efficiency), in which case you can up the RAM to 128 GB or 192 GB. That does start to get a bit eye-watering -- $4799 with 128 GB RAM.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 01:24:04 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on September 11, 2023, 12:18:38 amThe benchmark punters think the integrated GPUs are underpowered... so its a middle ground.Trashcan pro's started the push from apple to  include significant GPU compute where people would otherwise not choose it, the intention being software would find uses for the resource. Now that the product line is all apple silicon that should speed up. AI deployment is already able to run on any of the CPU/GPU/Neural Engine. Software engineering seems to be the bottleneck (try hiring people with experience in scaleable parallel processing) so some more platform independent APIs to abstract that away will probably be the tipping point for more general uses.Chicken and Egg. No-one will write GPU compute software while the market is fragmented and diverse. Apple putting a scaled, yet consistent, GPU (and Neural Compute) resource into all their products provides a juicy market ready to go.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 01:33:17 am
content: Quote from: Someone on September 11, 2023, 01:24:04 amI think GPU compute is a dead end. As a programmer I'm far more interested in scalable vector (RISC-V RVV, Arm SVE) than GPGPU. All the CUDA/OpenCL code ports straight over, but can be far more integrated with normal CPU code, without all that tedious copying things back and forth.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 03:17:16 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on September 11, 2023, 01:33:17 amThe average user doesn't care what architecture or processing paradigm is under the hood, they just want it faster and cheaper. Given the unified memory of the M series and its exceptional bandwidth, highly parallel compute units become more attractive than trying to make wider instructions on fewer cores.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 04:42:25 am
content: Quote from: Someone on September 11, 2023, 03:17:16 amIt seems pretty clear that you don't understand what scalable vector ISAs are, or that with masking and boolean and other operations on masks (including operations for diverge/converge) they are exactly equivalent to a "warp" or "wavefront" in a GPU.Why fewer cores? Perhaps you are not aware of things such as Esperanto's ET-SoC-1 which has 1088 RISC-V cores on one chip, each with a 512 bit vector/tensor processing unit. That is equivalent to a GPU with 17,408 32 bit "CUDA cores".Note that an RTX 3090 only has 10,752 CUDA cores.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 05:03:35 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on September 11, 2023, 04:42:25 amYes, a wider core could have the same arithmetic throughput but more cores = more conditional evals. Depends what your task is as to how to carve up the silicon budget. There is some balance between what is the ideal complexity and size of a "core", but that changes depending on the programming input/model/users/tools. While the world was stuck on binary x86 compatibility wider was the direction, but that is not the case for Apple M processors.You said you were interested in not having significant GPU resources, and prefer wider vector unit(s). I suggest that is a narrow point of view that does not map well to the diversity of tasks computers are asked to do, but it needs programmers to come along for the ride and not just insist on more of what they're comfortable with. What's the current arithmetic compute balance between the CPU, GPU, and Neural engine on the M1/M2 ?

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 11:01:12 am
content: if you aim for GNU/Linux machines, and have enough budget, IBM-POWER9-32core and Ampere-C3XX-ARM64-128core are the best choice ever!the future of apple is with Apple Vision, wearable computers

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 11:13:46 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on September 11, 2023, 04:42:25 amhow they communicate?edit:little anecdotelast night a friend of mine called me on the phone, half scientist and half fanatic of modern physics -heeeeeelppppp, ppppppleeeeease, the server crashed, I don't know how to resume- sure she doesn't have any admin level, instead she seems to have a problem with the equations of electrostatics and electromagnetism, similar but not the same, but similar enough to want to better model the boundary equations of the universe (which is all a crazy nosense thing in my opinion, anyway), things that require an exorbitant number of tensor calculations, because general relativity thus defines the space-time fabric, and ... in short, after an intensive week of calculations the Ampere-128 core cloud crashed downquestion: whatever, because scienceanswer: #42(stackoverflow)and I'm not talking about a "small" machine with little RAM (256Gbyte) and few cores (128/ARM64) ...This is why I "hate" scientists! She's a very nice girl, but every single time you do her a favor and make her use a cluster or a massive-computing node... she crashes it

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 11:41:34 am
content: With dynamic parallelism, CUDA isn't really so different from traditional CPUs. Just less distracting baggage. On the other hand, having an open compiler rather than depending on NVIDIA for support is nice.Apple's support for scalable vector isn't exactly on ET-SoC-1's level, nor does their GPU/AI-accelerator compare to NVIDIA's mid end, let alone high end.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 02:06:14 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 10, 2023, 08:30:43 pmI bought a cheap but new laptop from the Lenovo outlet last year for like $600 for travel and eventually my electronics workbench. It has better expandability, which I have already taken advantage of, and a better keyboard than a Mac, which is not saying much, but the battery life is not as good. I could get something similar but with a better screen for $1200 or so. My idea of a good screen is having at least a 16:10 aspect ratio and matte anti-glare finish, so Apple is out anyway. I am sure glad that I did not get anything smaller than 15".QuoteThe Ryzen workstation that I build last year is similar to the Phenom workstation that I build 12 years ago with maxed out ECC RAM, hardware RAID for bulk storage, and expansion for fast networking. The only parts I pick up used are the Areca hardware RAID controller and the drives for it.I have discovered that Windows is crippled in functionality when accessing remote storage, except for Microsoft cloud storage of course, so I changed my plan of building a large NAS and am upgrading my workstation to from 8 x 3TB to 8 x 14TB drives. Then I will transfer all of my accumulated remote storage to local storage.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 02:27:17 pm
content: For a little higher end you can't really beat Genoa either, cost per core and cost per bandwidth are very low (tons of memory channels even on the lower end ones).

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 03:50:52 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 16, 2023, 02:56:34 amBut that's exactly why Apple provide a better experience. Instead of supporting the lowest common denominator of PC hardware and permitting a bunch of hacks to enhance certain features, they have a very limited range of hardware to support. As a result, they should be able to do a better job (I'll leave it to their users to report on whether they achieve that).

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 07:09:00 pm
content: It doesn't have to be either/or. Consider for a moment the main ChromeOS (every Chromebook hardware platform is designed in cooperation with and at the mercy of Google) and ChromeOS Flex.You could have a world with certified devices where Microsoft handles all driver updates etc, combined with uncertified devices where you take a certain level of maintenance upon yourself. Microsoft is too dysfunctional to manage something like that though, they are the new IBM ... riding out inertia. While Google is pretty good with software, they have other problems.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 08:34:01 pm
content: What I never understand in these kind of threads is why the OS is always discussed as if it is the most important aspect of using a computer.For me it is the software I need or want to run. Only after determining what software I need, I will select the OS that is required. Interestingly it has always been Windows because the software I use is only available for this OS.Sometimes I use Linux, normally because I have to: the tools or software I need are not available for Windows.I own two iMacs and a MacBook, too. I gave the MacBook to my wife due to lack of usage (it for not run any of the software I want). The two iMacs are being used as TVs with VLC to stream from Enigma2 satellite receivers. This works great and the iMacs are pretty good looking.But anyway, I would not switch to a given OS for the sake of it. It depends on the available software. And just for browsing in leisure time, I find myself using my Android phone more and more.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2023, 12:41:51 am
content: Quote from: Bicurico on September 11, 2023, 08:34:01 pmFor lots of us, most of the software can be run on multiple platforms so there is choice. Then add in virtualisation/remote/cloud and it's not uncommon to be using multiple OS's for their strengths.It's things like macOS Mail that can be that determining software for others, you don't get it anywhere else. Fast, effective, consistent, scopeable text searching as an OS service is what keeps me on a Mac for most of my day (not interested in trying to use n-number of 3rd party tools to coerce the other platforms to work that sort of way), so yes the OS can be the determinant.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 12, 2023, 06:17:50 am
content: Quote from: Bicurico on September 11, 2023, 08:34:01 pmBecause in many cases, that is the most common deciding factor. No point in looking at Apple hardware if a specific requirement only runs on Windows etc...

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2023, 07:01:46 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on September 12, 2023, 06:17:50 amThat was exactly what I meant.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 12, 2023, 12:02:33 pm
content: Quote from: Bicurico on September 12, 2023, 07:01:46 amYou can't run Mac OS on non-Apple hardware, or Windows on modern Apple hardware without some kind of hacky, workaround. That's why deciding on OS is the first important factor for many users.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2023, 12:33:47 pm
content: Notably you can run windows apps on macOS with Crossover. And embarrassingly perhaps for Microsoft, it'll run things that don't work properly on Windows 11 (due to DPI scaling issues / MCI problems etc). Uses dynamic translation rather than a straight virtual machine so performance is rather good.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2023, 01:15:55 pm
content: The main issue is that this isn't about choosing just an OS, we have to choose an ecosystem. In an ideal world you would be able to buy hardware x, install OS y and applications z. The reality is that Apple and MS want to lock you in and control as much as possible of the whole IT chain for profit maximization. If you need application z which runs only on OS y you don't have any choice at all. If we want alternatives we have to make them happen ourselves.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2023, 01:44:17 am
content: Quote from: madires on September 12, 2023, 01:15:55 pmLet developers know you'd like to install their software from outside the ecosystem "store", though it's possibly past the tipping point and installing from 3rd parties could soon become the unsupported (or blocked) method for consumer desktop OS's.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2023, 01:56:22 am
content: After 30 years of Windows... I'm so deeply married to it that I will add other systems to the armoury, but never drop Windows!

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2023, 02:46:51 am
content: SilverSolder: If you can't drop Windows, I'd atleast imprison it inside a VM. That way you can keep it offline, and both prevent forcible updates which could mess up its ability to run the Windows only software you need Windows for, and avoid having any need for updates either (no need for a security patch for a system that is kept offline). The way Windows is headed I wouldn't trust being reliant on it as the main OS on a PC, if its in a VM when it crashes you can still use a reliable Linux host OS to search online for how to debug Windows. You can't search online for how to fix serious Windows crashes when Windows is your host (we'll assume you're travelling with a single laptop or something, so no second PC to hand).Someone: One can't really go around pressuring developers to pressure against app store distribution when the software one cares about is legacy stuff for which one simply keeps old exe files to hand. The thing which matters therefore is ensuring secureboot can always be defeated, so one can install a Linux OS which you can have proper control of, and then run the legacy software under Wine or inside a VM with an old Windows version. Modern app store based operating systems are basically malware, designed so M$ or Apple can delete your programs on a whim, the only hope for computing is to keep with the old.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2023, 03:56:44 am
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on September 13, 2023, 02:46:51 amFor software today I want to continue backing up/archiving binary installers, just like keeping the setup.exe around from the old days. Which the stores try to hide/keep from you. I care about continuing access to todays software just as much as treasured older packages.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2023, 09:05:45 am
content: Quote from: madires on September 12, 2023, 01:15:55 pmit's always been like this, starting with the all-in-one, the first computer after the Apple-I, you perfectly described the difference in vision betweenSteve Wozniak, freedom to choose hardware x, install OS y and applications zSteve Jobs and his legacy, lock you in and control as much as possible, for profit max1984 changed history, but the first Macintosh changed nothing in the economy of scale: machines always with a closed ecosystem, up to the third generation PowerMacs, you can boot whatever you want without any hack! and the PCI has some quirks but all in all it is possible to use the majority of PCI cards designed for the PC.J.Ive era, unfortunately lost with the x86 Macs, and is getting worse with the Macs AppleSilicon.Only open hardware combined with open software can change things, but we are talking about a very distant future (2050-2060, probably on Mars), where even the economy of scale will change.After all, we have also seen it with space stations: before, modules produced only by several companies, not compatible, now we have interchangeable modules and open collaborations.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2023, 09:12:26 am
content: however, it can also be seen in the car and bicycle markettry taking a car, dismantling it, and trying to assemble the pieces from another house... there are pieces that don't even fit, and screws that don't even screw in!try taking a bike with Campagnolo components, and randomly fitting Schimano, or SRAM, or Suntor components.For the same type of bolt or even dustcap cover, produced by different manufacturers, there are even different tools!!! (WTF, really!)Why does each manufacturer make bolts differently from the competition? to sell you each their own tool.Nothing will work when you try to mix. Are you surprised that you can't do the same with computer software and hardware?This is how ALL economies of scale work

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2023, 09:48:50 am
content: Worth noting there isn't all that lock in with Apple's ecosystem. I migrated to Android and Windows for a couple of months a while back and it was quite easy to move between them. I went back to Apple because quite frankly there was a lot less friction and fewer problems and I actually need to get some shit done without fixing stuff every 5 minutes.Pick the tools you need for the price you want to pay.And despite the proponents repeating it over and over again,there is actually no magically open computing hardware out there at all.You're all locked into something.The thing with incompatibility is there are definitely more than one opinion on how to solve a problem. If you go open standards, you get the worst of everything through design by committee processes. The other option is an opinionated vendor which will have some lock in and cost implications. Fine example is Photoshop vs Gimp. I'd rather gouge my fucking eyes out than use Gimp.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2023, 10:54:43 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on September 13, 2023, 09:12:26 amHaving just pulled apart and reassembled my macbook pro....apple used at least 3 screw head types in the one device. Phillips, torx head and one way tri-lobe screws.The one way screws were holding in the battery. Yep, so before they started soldering their batteries, they still used passive-aggressive fixing hardware.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2023, 12:51:06 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 13, 2023, 09:48:50 amGraphene and Lineage exist, even with UEFI no company dependent on x86 for their own OS has to realistically fear the platform becoming closed to them.Nothing like that can ever exist on Apple hardware unless government puts a gun to their head, and pulls the trigger.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2023, 03:32:07 pm
content: Quote from: John B on September 13, 2023, 10:54:43 am... speaking of computers, the comparison is better if you analyze how PCI and ePCI cards are made: often almost identical to PC ones but with small firmware differences which on the Linux Kernel side need to be compensated for with "quirks", and this is because Apple, like SGI, like HP, NEVER fully respects Intel specifications, and does so deliberately to make you compare cards that are approximately identical to PC ones but which won't work on a Mac unless you hack them.On Linux we don't care, and 97% the hack is in kernel space.Anyway, I've seen fiber optic cards that had a specific piece of firmware for x86/PC, rather than for ppc/Mac, rather than for MIPS/SGI, rather than for HPPA/HPUX, while the chip and everything else on the card was practically identical, but sold in four different optionsfor PCfor Mac (differente price+)for HP (differente price+++)for SGI (differente price++++)it's a bit like saying, I'll sell you a screw and a bolt, the body of the screw is always the same, but on PCs they are cross-shaped, on Macs they are Torx and on HPPA they are star cone, and for SGI they are star cone with 7 points, so you need 4 screwdrivers , or a small cutting disc saw to "hack" the screw head so that it can always be tightened and loosened with the same chisel screwdriver.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2023, 03:43:12 pm
content: During the J.Ive's PowerBook-G3 era (~2000) we only needed one Daystar screwdriver!You could disassemble and reassemble the entire { Lombard, Pismo } laptop with just one Daystar screwdriver!A common screwdriver shipped to all Apple repair centers, just on one side it has a cross tip, on the other a torx tip.J.Ive wanted it that way, and the battery was designed to come out like a drawer, you could open it and change all the charging elements, common cylindrical batteries.The only "glue" was that of the label on the battery compartment cover, and it came off easily with a little WD40 (used improperly).... I am afraid that talking about kind of screws and batteries, ~2000 was an enlightened period, unfortunately passed, and things have changed, for the worse.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2023, 08:39:07 pm
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on September 13, 2023, 02:46:51 amYes, that's what I do - wrap it up in VMs.I don't find Windows unreliable at all - once set up, it can run for years with no issues. Obviously this is true only if nobody (including Microsoft) is constantly messing with it!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2023, 08:45:19 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on September 13, 2023, 03:43:12 pmCaveat back then was the thing had to be taken apart very regularly!The service manuals are now available for most recent Apple products. Mine for example:https://manuals.info.apple.com/MANUALS/2000/MA2085/en_US/macbookpro-14-2021-07300326A-repair.pdfStill some pentalobes in there but it's mostly Torx.The only inexcusable bit is that the keyboard / battery / top case is considered one part at the moment. This is being sorted in a future generation based on the general trends on their designs being more repairable per revision.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2023, 08:46:06 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on September 14, 2023, 08:39:07 pmMore recent versions, such as 22H2 and any Windows 11 release make it extremely difficult to not require messing with it.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 03:37:58 am
content: MacOS 14 (Sonoma) was released last week and when you think Apple's UI couldn't get more polished and friendly, it just got even better. Absolutely love the update and some of the new features it brings.My only major gripe with Apple today is they still insist on putting the charging port (which is still the stupid Lightning connector) for their current "Magic Mouse" on the bottom of the unit. This means:I wouldn't be able to use the mouse while chargingI'd need to leave it upside down on the desk while it's plugged inI would need a USB-C to Lightning cable, which none of my other devices use, just to charge the mouse (although one is supplied in the box)Until they fix this rather stupid design flaw, I don't see it being worth AUD$139. The choice to place the charging cable on the base of the mouse was idiotic back in 2015 when the Magic Mouse 2 was released, and it's just as (if not more) idiotic to keep this same design in 2023.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 05:22:10 am
content: Yeah, the charging port location for their mouse is ridiculous. I don't get why they haven't fixed it while probably millions of users are irritated. (But if the suckers still buy it, I guess Apple has a right not to care.)I find their magic mouse horrific to use personally anyway, but I fully understand that to each their own!

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 09:53:14 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 02, 2023, 05:22:10 amI'll stick with my Dell Premier Multi-Device Wireless Keyboard and Mouse combo (P/N: KM7321W). For the same price, I get both a 3-channel keyboard and mouse, which actually has both decent range and battery life. Keyboard inputs are encrypted with AES-128 (if that's important to you).

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 07:51:17 pm
content: Not personally a Mac user - but from what I've seen, many of them use a third-party mouse rather than Apple's magic mouse. It may be "magic", but it's pretty bad from an ergonomics POV.As to the keyboard (for desktop use), I've seen less hate for Apple keyboards, even though they just plain suck IMHO - all this ultra-flat "design over function" thing.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 08:57:17 pm
content: I almost updated my Hackintosh to Sonoma, but held off after seeing that a fair amount of hardware support was dropped from the kernel, including broadcom drivers needed for wifi functionality. The functionality of my thunderbolt ports have also been getting worse since Catalina.So Monterey might be my last MacOS experience. When I moved to Linux I knew eventually I'd have to replace MacOS too, as they will eventually drop Intel processor support altogether.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2023, 08:21:12 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 02, 2023, 07:51:17 pmUnfortunately other manufacturers are copying Apple's poor human factors engineering in keyboards, mice, and screens. Fortunately there is a large enough market to support much better third party products.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2023, 08:36:58 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on October 03, 2023, 08:21:12 pmTo be fair their screens are top notch although some of the higher DPI ones in the PC market are good and 1/3-1/2 of the cost.I'm with you on the mice and keyboards though. Turds.Bought a fairly hefty PC workstation a week or so ago on a whim and I haven't touched my Mac since if I'm honest. Might rescind my comments from earlier

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2023, 09:24:48 pm
content: Apple displays are really good. For the most part.The one thing that has been copied, went out of fashion but seems to be coming back are glossy displays. While it gives a "satistfying" appearance compared to matte at first sight (and yes, it does have a bit better contrast and brightness as the matte finish tends to absorb some light), reflections are utterly annoying.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 09:20:00 am
content: The matte displays have reflections too. They are just larger and more amorphous so they don't poke you in the eye as much. They are still annoying as hell though.Gloss displays vary somewhat. There are good ones and bad ones. I have three here. The first on my Apple Studio Display is pretty good and there is an anti-reflection filtering - no complaints. The second is the 14" MBP which is the same. No problems. But I also have a Dell Precision 7670 with the top end OLED option (Work laptop - I didn't pay for it!) and that is completely unusable for anything with a black background as I can see myself over the text! I have to run the background of everything white and turn the brightness up just to use it. Total turd.But I'm mostly sitting in front of two Dell P-series displays now. They are a good compromise on price / performance.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 02:21:25 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 04, 2023, 09:20:00 amOne of my friends uses all Mac stuff and has several different Apple screens. In an ideal environment they all look great, but I do not understand at all how he can put up with his Apple laptop screen in a typical not so well controlled laptop environment. Compared to my cheap matte screen on my Lenovo Thinkbook, and my cheap Asus matte desktop screens, the Apple screens seem unusable to me.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 04:28:00 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on October 04, 2023, 02:21:25 pmDepends which one it is. If it's the cheaper end ones they are pretty terrible. That includes the pre-M1 MacBook Pros and the base model M1/M2 MacBooks. The Micro-LED one in the 14" and 16" M1/M2 macbooks is absolutely ridiculously good in comparison.I have a Lenovo T14 gen 3 though myself and that's good enough!(dang I have too many flipping computers)

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 04:30:47 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 04, 2023, 04:28:00 pmI soon will be down to 3 including my laptop. Instead of building a big NAS, I upgraded the storage on my workstation and am transferring everything from 2 other systems over to it.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 05:34:29 pm
content: I did convert to Mac on 2008, when I *wanted* to buy a PC but only Windows Vista was available, which was the worst thing ever.So I did buy an iMac, and its been all Macs ever since, for personal and work use

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 12:58:21 am
content: Quote from: PartialDischarge on October 04, 2023, 05:34:29 pmI stayed on XP long enough to skip over Vista, 7, and 8.

author: khantroll
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 03:14:07 pm
content: I'm on this particular bandwagon as well. I've been in IT for two decades at this point; I was mostly a Mac user through the G4/G5 era, then went to Windows and Linux for both home and work when they transitioned to intel hardware. About 8 years ago I picked up a great deal on a used Macbook Pro, and it was my portable for a few years. Windows 11 and the increasing cloud integration/buggy bug fixes that I have to deal with at work, however, have forced (without much arm twisting I admit) to bounce Windows from my home. For roughly two years there hasn't been a Windows computer in my house...and life is good.