Full android watch - Ostro on indiegogo - *Dodgy* - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: notzippy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 10:27:31 pm
content: What do you think of the specs on this watch, is it possible ?http://igg.me/at/orsto-x1-smart-watch/x/17332881ghz CPU, wont exactly be the snappiest android device you own but it should run ok, what surprised me was the built in support for wifi, BTLE, NFC, GPS along with Cell support (talk about a james bond watch) - of course running android will be devastating for the battery life and they did not overstate the battery life claiming 1-2 days normal use up to 10 days "standby use"I have emailed the campaign owner and asked the followingQuoteThe reply wasQuoteThere are more images on the campaign pagehttp://igg.me/at/orsto-x1-smart-watch/x/1733288So is this a work of fiction ? or a possibility ?thanks for your inputNz

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 11:56:40 pm
content: Dodgy as hell I would say and flexible funding so they up GPB 8800 already.You might check the company director Paul Gill and the list of dissolved companies he and (presumably) his wife have directed :-http://companycheck.co.uk/director/911296879http://companycheck.co.uk/director/911221436http://companycheck.co.uk/director/908490508

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 12:14:44 am
content: I would not invest in this product, person or company.Here's why...First, everything is renderings - they have nothing to show. How do they know the watch will be 6.5mm thin + 2.9mm bulge in the center? They could only know that if they have already made one and worked out the bugs. But if they have already made one, why not show it?Second, we do all our own metalworking in our manufacturing facility here. I work with titanium extensively and I buy a lot of it. He claims the watch will be made from Ti and shows pictures of it being machined. Well, Ti is expensive. I bet I get a lot better price than he does on it, and without doing much calculation, there is a not-insignificant cost just in the titanium. And it will need either cast, formed or machined. Casting and forming require large up-front costs in tooling. Machining does not. Off the cuff, if someone came to me and wanted those cases machined, they would be looking at maybe $80-100USD easily, probably more.Third, there are all sorts of other add-ons to the above... an embedded mini-stylus, buttons, ports for a camera/flash, etc? All those tiny parts add a ton to the cost.Fourth, I simply do not believe he can fit an LCD, PCB with MCU/memory, Wifi+Bluetooth+NFC+USB modules/ports, camera+flash, speaker and all the rest into a housing that small. Absolutely no way in hell. Not to mention audio jack, inductive charging pickup, microphone, etc, etc. I would be shocked if Samsung came out with a product of this size and those specs... let alone an independent with no discernible prior experience.Fifth, I looked at their company registration and Orsto was formed just this year and registered to a "business park" in Durham (not the one shown on their website). Google Maps shows a row of roll-up garage doors, looking more like a run-down self-storage area. And that unit (#20) is registered to some garage door company. His Orsto website shows another business location that appears to be one of those "rent a meeting room for a day" type places with managed offices (where you can often rent a few square meters for a pittance each month). So this is not exactly a major operation the guy is running.So based on all that, I would not invest in this project because I have no confidence the project creator would ever be able to pull it off - no time was devoted in the pitch to highlighting past successes, or how much progress has been made to date, or details about how the watch will be fabricated, etc. It's all just eye-candy.

author: notzippy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 05:20:38 am
content: Thanks for the information, I also thought there is way to much electronics to fit in that size of footprint as well. But the information about the assembly costs simply makes this an impossibility to realize.. Should it be reported as such ?Nz

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 05:46:32 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on May 30, 2013, 12:14:44 amAs someone who has investigated and prototyped small watch designs (where the emphasis is always mostly on thickness), I concur. Just not possible.And you forgot the battery.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 05:53:08 am
content: The battery used in the prototype is the LP423048 :http://www.fullwat.com/documentos/000414-LNK02728.pdfThat's 4.3mm gone right there. Good luck getting much thinner and the same capacity.AND it's got a SIM card?

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 08:01:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 30, 2013, 05:46:32 amI always forget the battery - story of my lifeReading the comments, this project is, IMO, brimming with bullshit.Someone asked about black and he says "Sure, black is no problem". Is he aware of the processes by which titanium can be turned black, and what it costs and what is involved? How could he learn all that in a matter of minutes before his reply? And if he was already aware, why wouldn't they offer black from the get-go?Also, there is so much time devoted to crap like "what color wrist band do you want" and virtually no time devoted to frivolities like showing an *actual* machined housing!Looking at the housing, it is not DFM = designed for manufacture. It seems to me these guys don't know how this housing will be made and haven't optimized the housing for efficient and lowest cost production. Which is especially important when you are up against a cost constraint.One of the things I manufacture is mechanical watch winders and custom watches. For the watches, we CNC machine the housings from titanium and stainless steel and insert antique pocket watch movements that a guy embellishes for us. I don't think the Orsto guy has done any research into margins in the watch field. They are insane... a $2,000 MSRP item will sell to the retailer for 60-70% off MSRP. And on top of that you give them free displays and all sorts of marketing allowances.This guy is a babe in the woods - about to get eaten

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 08:14:50 am
content: The watch part is easyhttp://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/738064604/2013_hot_GSM_Digital_Mobilephone_Watch.htmlhttp://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/609455266/wrist_watch_phone_android_wrist_phone.html?s=pthe case might be fake chinese stainless steel titanium

author: notzippy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 05:02:04 pm
content: Specs page has changed again showing "prototype" vs "production" specs, kinda of a sly way to change your specs by making it an image file that is hosted on a remote server.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 05:20:08 pm
content: They keep mentioning prototype but I don't see a single real watch anywhere?

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 06:48:31 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on May 30, 2013, 05:20:08 pmIf they had made any prototypes, they would show them.They say "We have an almost unrivalled number of years experience in new innovative products and have been involved in many ground breaking technology projects which have become household products, that are pretty much taken for granted these days". That is a pretty bold claim! Especially considering their company was formed just a few months ago and registered to a small garage bay at a run-down industrial park. To build credibility, why not discuss some of the products they have been involved with in the past? Why not show prototype parts and products?And their schedule is a pipe dream. They say that in July, "pre production components will be tested and produced" and all testing will be done. Then in August, production prototypes will be made, and they will build apps/software. Each of those processes will take many many weeks - months even! I do this stuff in-house and I can have prototypes made and tweaked in a matter of hours, and it takes us a couple or few months to get infinitely simpler products through from concept to production. Even when I have an existing design that's already in production that I can heavily "borrow" from, it still takes many many weeks to get to production parts.On the one hand, I sort of feel bad for all the people putting up their hard earned money for this. On the other, without sounding too rude... a person would have to be really, really dumb to put $150-250 into this project based on that video and some badly rendered CAD drawings and absolutely *nothing* else but promises and unsubstantiated claims.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 07:54:59 pm
content: How great is indiegogo...I hadn't looked much before and now I observer you can't comment without being a contributor. You have to subscribe to a scam to be able to warn anyone about it - lol.I notice the money keeps trickeling in - another GBP 700 today.

author: notzippy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 08:11:48 pm
content: Got another email from the person running the campaign, he seems confident that he can realize this watch. Supposed to be a video up next week demoing the prototype, and listing the development partners.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 08:30:55 pm
content: If they show a REAL prototype then it would not look so much like a scam, but there's still significant hurdles to get it into production.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 08:49:31 pm
content: Quote from: notzippy on May 30, 2013, 08:11:48 pmOf course... everything will be "coming soon".If they have already made prototypes as they claim, why would they not include them in their pitch? Why would you be showing off rendered drawings instead? Why wouldn't they formulate their pitch after they had shot video of their prototypes in action? They claim to have been working on this for three years. In three years, all they have to show is a rendering?I am also skeptical of the value of "development partners". Whatever these guys say isn't really verifiable... they can say "we are working with Samsung, Agilent, Tyco and Seiko". That might just mean they bought a Samsung display as anyone with $20 and a credit card can do from Digikey.It will be interesting to see what the video they come up with shows - but I believe I already know what will be in there.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 05:59:30 am
content: I dont understand your doubts. Chinese already make watches like those. His "partners" is some 10 man factory in guangdong daya bay.Technology is not a problem here. The real problem is selling already realized Chinese product while pretending to be an inventor building it from rounds up.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 06:31:54 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on May 31, 2013, 05:59:30 amYou're joking, right?The Chinese watches are just some integrated mobile chipset with a small LCD - and they put that in a 15mm thick package.The Orsto guy claims he is doing all of that, AND, he is adding WiFi, GPS, NFC, USB, Digital compass, G-sensor, an LED flash, and he will have sufficient memory and processor horsepower to run Android, and a battery of sufficient capacity to run the thing for 2 days.And he will stuff all that in a package 5.5mm thinner than those plastic Chinese watches.He claims he has prototypes, none of which have been shown, and that he's been working on this for 3 years, but all we see are some rendered images and a company that was formed a few months ago.I don't understand how anyone can think this can possibly be accomplished?I would love to take your money if you'd care to make a bet about whether this product will be delivered on time. Hell, I'll even give you an extra 2 months more than he claims it will take.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 08:48:24 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on May 31, 2013, 06:31:54 amhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Android-2-2-GSM-Watch-Wrist-Smartphone-Mobile-Phone-WiFi-GPS-touch-srn-5-/200928587182?pt=Cell_Phones&hash=item2ec846edaeThe realisation of functionality is definitely there but they're going to have a really hard time making the thing smaller. If you look at their prototype specs the dimensions are actually a little larger than that of the one above.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 10:02:01 am
content: Quote from: amyk on May 31, 2013, 08:48:24 amAn impossibly hard time I suspect...

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 06:09:19 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on May 31, 2013, 08:48:24 amI think we would all agree that the functionality is possible... I bet many of us here could make such a product and have it fit in the size of a cigarette pack.But to make all of that functionality (and more - Orsto claims to add NFC, inductive charging, audio jack, camera flash, etc over that eBay one) and make it in a size so much smaller than anything else - I say is impossible. Interesting about the eBay one is that the dimensions they list don't include the battery (says "watch" only). It's a bit misleading but if you see the pics with the back open, it looks like the battery is at least half as thick as the watch, and the same outer dimensions. So the Orsto one (even the prototype) is claimed to be smaller by quite a lot than this one, but they also claim they will reduce the size again by another 75% or so (difference in dimensions between square prototype and production version in ellipse form).And for a price less than the eBay one - with more functions, faster processor, more components (stylus, titanium housing, camera flash, vibratory motor), etc.It will be interesting to watch this one unfold - but does anyone here really believe Orsto is going to produce a titanium watch in the size they claim for the price they claim? I would love to be proven wrong because I would buy one in a heartbeat, but there are so many reasons I don't believe in this project - not only the dimensions.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 06:35:44 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on May 31, 2013, 06:09:19 pmNa, at best they will ship out those $60 chinese watches and say "this is the best we could do", at worst they will take money and wait till backers forget about it.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 07:05:25 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on May 31, 2013, 06:35:44 pmHe and his wife have been directors of a string of created and dissolved companies over the last 16 years. IMO the chances of ORTSO Ltd still existing in 12 months time are zero.They are up to GBP 10k5 now, does it look like they will take another 50k in the next 31 days? Probably not so he can just say sorry you didn't give me enough money and walk away with what they did give in his pocket.

author: rougeaux
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 01, 2013, 07:52:14 am
content: From the project page:QuoteAnd who exactly isSBWire?QuoteIt takes huge balls to quote your own corporate press release in a way that implies that it actually comes from an independent news source.Monumentallyhuge balls.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2013, 08:22:22 am
content: Personally I think its brilliant. Im making a mental note to use this trick next time Im running a scam in EVE Online

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 06, 2013, 11:05:37 pm
content: The guy from Orsto said yesterday he was working on a video update showing the watch and all it's functions - but the video never ended up being posted.I have no doubt that he is reading this site, because he said something like "unlike the critics, we are actually working with the major component manufacturers". I wonder what "working with" means? Do I "work with" Cree because they sent me samples and I used their LED's in various things? Do I "work with" Cypress because I bought some PSoC chips?"Working with" implies a level of mutual cooperation and, to me anyway, implies some sort of peer-partnership. I am sure the relationship between Orsto and the "major component manufacturers" is anything but one of peers.

author: MyCo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2013, 06:50:16 am
content: I really like that relabeled Apple charger... That makes the whole thing trustworthy

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 07:17:17 am
content: So according the Orsto guy, they have not been able to post the video they said they were working on several days ago (based on the real parts they have working) because "they are struggling to get a nice clear view because the frequencies of the display are conflicting with their camcorder".Yeah, sounds legit. I bet Dave here at EEVBlog deals with that issue all the time, and had to jump through some serious hoops to be able to video those LCD displays. NOT.Also, based on the creator's comments, it appears PayPal has locked their account - he says it was a similar issue to Lab Zero Games. LZG's PayPal account was locked because PayPal was concerned with the high probability of chargebacks. So based on that, it would appear PayPal is concerned that this project is never going to happen and they are going to get stuck with a bunch of refunds.Well, at least they posted a picture of their prototype... any comments on the pic?http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/orsto-x1-the-ultimate-smart-watch?c=activity

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 07:34:50 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on June 09, 2013, 07:17:17 amWell at least the T-shirts are doable. Oddly useless but doable.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 08:57:59 am
content: I like some of the errors in the specification showing he really does not know much.For example 516MB is the memory on the prototype. And capitalising "GHZ" and "MHZ".In addition, the aspect ratio of the screenshots in the "manual" repeatedly change.http://www.orsto.com/orsto-x1-manual.html

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 11:42:10 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on June 09, 2013, 07:17:17 amQuoteThe shape looks like the innards of a standard GSM phone... likethis one.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 11:59:18 am
content: They also seem to believe 5mA is enough for an"interactive game"...http://www.orsto.com/compare-smart-watches.html100 uA (e.g. Bluetooth Chip at Idle, or, a Typical Watch Dial App).600 uA (e.g. Typical Very Low power App)5,000 uA (e.g. An Interactive Game App)

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2013, 04:02:26 am
content: Quote from: amyk on June 09, 2013, 11:42:10 amThe shape looks like the innards of a standard GSM phone... likethis one.Yes!I couldn't quite put my finger on what was wrong with the picture, but that's it... if you were building a prototype dev board that was (obviously) not the final design, why would you put (what looks like) a MicroUSB jack, speaker/mic and vibratory motor on separate small PCB's connected by wire? You wouldn't. You would just put it all on one board. They would only be on sub-boards connected by wires if you needed that flexibility to mount in a housing. And if you built it to put in a housing, you would show off the housing.Unless the housing it came from was an off-the-shelf device you don't want people to know about - like... oh... a mobile phone!In other Orsto news, someone mentioned a square version, and the project creator replied "Yes, we were looking into that option, how much interest is there?" - very lackadaisical and casual response to what would undoubtedly be a major product redesign requiring several months (if you do it at a very accelerated clip) of prototyping, testing, board revisions, etc. Not to mention an entirely new housing with new tooling.I make stuff infinitely simpler than that watch, and taking a product and putting it into a whole new form factor is a big deal.Not for Orsto, apparently... just need a few people to request that option and they can do it!

author: MFX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 09:42:19 pm
content: One thing that really bugs me about Indiegogo is that unless you are a contributor your comments are "private" meaning only the campaign owner can see them so it's impossible to warn prospective punters that it's likely a scam/no hope project.Martin.

author: notzippy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2013, 03:45:49 pm
content: I had a thought, maybe the owner posted this impossible designed "round watch", and now is moving toward the more square design due to "the number of requests" perhaps this was his end goal all along .. and the final design will end up looking like the the simple android knock off watches.. Below is the redesign "cad" drawingTodays update was funny as wellQuoteThe "mini" I am guessing is a realistic projecthttp://igg.me/at/kreyos/x/1733288The "Ferrari" I am guessing he is referring to his campaignNz

author: rougeaux
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 26, 2013, 06:32:39 pm
content: The round one and circular one are pretty different looking, but I'm confident in saying the bulk of his design decisions have been related to which awful font he should use in promotional material. The next version of "his" "watch design" will probably incorporate Comic Sans.QuoteWow, what an enormous douche.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2013, 08:42:11 pm
content: Is it legal to name your watch Ferrari without licensing the trademark from the famous Italian supercar company?

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2013, 11:20:02 pm
content: This guy is a real piece of work.First, it is always a bad idea to try to elevate yourself by putting others down. To bash a more successful product and company makes him look petty and vengeful. What will the reaction be when people have legitimate gripes with the product (that he'll never deliver)? Why would anyone think his reaction wouldn't be equally as petty and spiteful?Second, the guy fails to understand why the other project is so successful. It looks nicer, it's more useful, and it actually had a chance at being made. they have invested (likely tens of thousands of $$) in injection molds. They have professional photography. They have real actual parts they have shown. The Orsto guy has none of that. He has a string of failed companies. He has rendered images. And he has a pathetic video (for someone asking for tens of thousands of pounds of people's hard earned money).Speaking of the video, his explanation is bullshit. He says "for some reason" the video is squeezed horizontally, making it look narrower than it is. I presume he is trying to say his video is of the real screen (which is wider than it is tall), and to ignore the fact that it's taller than it is wide in the video. So someone who possesses the expertise to implement this project is incapable of figuring out video formats and screen sizes? bull!The guy oozes grift... nothing is ever his fault... it's PayPal's fault that the project is failing... it's the customers fault that they don't understand why his project is the better one, etc, etc.What a horrendous businessman. And I know he's reading this forum but hasn't addressed any of the issues raised, because he has no answers for them.

author: cthree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2013, 04:18:05 am
content: Yeah, wouldn't touch this one. Looks like a bait and switch scam best case. He will never be able to deliver what he is promising.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2013, 11:33:01 pm
content: The Orsto guy keeps going after that other bluetooth watch project - and suggesting that people don't "get" what his watch is - flat out refusing to believe that people do understand and just don't want that. Who wants another cell phone to carry around? I can pick the best-of-breed phone now and let a smart watch tie into the existing functionality of that phone.He said a new housing was going to be machined, IIRC, 2 weeks ago and was being picked up over a week ago - but that never got shown. He furthermore keeps missing his other deadlines... the new website will be up soon. It will be up Monday. Oh wait, it will be up Wednesday! Oh, did I mention we're changing the whole project from a round watch to a square one? And I have housings being made now, I'll have them in 2 days... then nothing for weeks after.I feel very bad for those who have 'invested' thus far. Baffling to me.

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2013, 12:07:07 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 09, 2013, 11:33:01 pmWorst he could do is just ship one of these:http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/857185128/Android_2_2_GSM_muti_media.html4.Screen: 2" TFT-LCD Touch screen with LED back light,QVGA resolution 240x320;Maybe the trick is making people wait and wait. They could just start saying that this X2 version better and so on. "You can get this X2 one now or the X1 version, you actually ordered, sometime in the future. Or just cancel your order."EDIT: This was already discussed on the last page

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2013, 12:41:54 am
content: Yet another deadline missed.The website that was going to be uploaded Monday, but had a delay and would be uploaded at some point on Wednesday still is not there.It continues to baffle me that anyone would give this guy any money.He puts all his effort into bashing people more successful than him, he shows of dark video where you see nothing, and explains an obviously different size LCD as being "something in the camera settings that distorted the proportions". He also continually makes promises and misses deadlines..... like the fact that 2 weeks ago he stated the X2 model housing was being machined and would be picked up the following day, allowing him to assemble his prototype.Of course, this X2 that "everyone wants" and appears to have surpassed the X1 in interest has never been shown anywhere. But yet he supposedly has the housing and prototype parts assembled, but just won't show anyone?Is there anyone here who will admit to giving money to this guy?

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2013, 01:45:48 pm
content: http://www.orsto.com/plus-+-watch.htmlIs that the new website?Oh wait... website has no info about the round/oval watch, instead we have something that looks similar to normal chinese android watchI like how they chose to compare it to some really bulky normal watches.I think this guy deserves a medal. Going from superthin revolutionary smartphone on your wrist to this bulky thing in just few weeks/months.Ostro can spitout new designs like theres no tomorrow, If every company and engineers were like this, the world would be whole different place.

author: notzippy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2013, 02:40:40 pm
content: What a scam, cannot believe this is the final product. These cheap plastic POS products are not what he originally advertised. If I had donated I would be pissedNz

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 07:06:37 pm
content: QuoteHow can indiegogo let things like this slide? Or maybe he still thinks titanium case is gonna eat that "5.5mm" of extra bulk. Hmm all the promises about previous specs have vanished. With these dodgy projects all updates and pictures should be archived into a safe place. Even the trusting backers of the project are getting suspiciousQuote

author: Tost
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 11:47:28 pm
content: Interesting "Prototype"... vietnamese .alibaba.com/product-gs/watch-mobile-phone-watch-android-phone-smart-android-watch-phone-983529303.html www .indiegogo.com/projects/x1-2inch-colour-touch-voice-ellipse-smart-watch?c=gallery

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 01:24:22 am
content: Quote from: Tost on July 14, 2013, 11:47:28 pmThis guy is a shyster... but shame on the fools who have supported this project.It was obvious when he showed "his" prototype that it wasn't his... who would design a prototype with sub assemblies on separate boards anyway?And the fact that he hosts the specs as image files linked from his server, and can and does change them at any time... total shyster.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 11:25:00 am
content: That's how OEM works... normally we don't hear about it but here we watch the whole process of ripping off consumers.What's interesting is how big the SIM socket is in comparison to the rest of the components on the board. They might be able to make it smaller if they changed the SIM type.

author: Till
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 09:53:59 pm
content: I live in Durham, UK, and up to now I never heard of this man or his company - but perhaps that's because I don't work in the right sector, which would probably be law enforcement. I do know the Abbey Road Business centre - as you would expect, it's home to about a couple dozen limited companies, and offers "virtual offices" and mailboxes, starting from £30 per month. FYI, setting up a limited company costs about £20 in fees here in the UK and has zero capital requirements or auditing, so it's by no means a mark of respectability.I don't think we have to discuss whether the "X1" watch / phone is technically possible. Fortunately, it seems pretty clear that Mr. Gill will not reach his funding target, but that may not be necessary to defraud his investors, as this is a "flexible" campaign, meaning he will still get all the money (£22,093 so far). He may deliver a cheap Chinese watch phone that looks nothing like what he promised, or he may deliver nothing at all - you could say that people should have known better, but that doesn't make it right to take their money.I'm considering contacting Durham trading standards about it - unfortunately, I am not sure they understand crowdfunding, or the impossibility of Mr. Gill delivering on his promise. My hope is that his name and record will ring a bell, and that they can act to freeze and return the ill-gotten gains.I would also hope that Indiegogo stop his campaign before it finishes - but they've let it run long enough that I have my doubts over whether they will act in time.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 11:27:08 pm
content: Quote from: Till on July 24, 2013, 09:53:59 pmIf you look at the third post in this thread you can see a string of companies he and presumably his wife have created and dissolved. He is the director of something at Unit 20, Dragonville Industrial Park, Durham for example - looks like a lock up garage on google maps.

author: notzippy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2013, 04:52:06 am
content: So now he has created a second campaign called the "plus watch"http://igg.me/at/plus-watch/x/1733288Wow thats an ugly watch..

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2013, 05:00:29 am
content: And all the specifications are in images located on their site, so they can change them at any moment. Although there is nothing to change, now they are just cheap Chinese watches without any modifications at all.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2013, 05:18:36 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 30, 2013, 05:00:29 amHe downgraded the specs... right to the level of those Chinese Android watches that people already posted about. And because he's hosting the specs, many people don't even realize he pulled a bait-and-switch.And he deletes comments like crazy - anything even slightly questioning or critical? Boom - it's gone. The bad comments fill up late evening (USA time) and in the morning, he must go on there and delete anything critical, because they are gone by the time i wake up the next day.What a tragedy for the 'investors'.

author: Tost
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2013, 12:52:31 pm
content: I'm wondering how they get the Chinese Android watch electronics  into their dreamed up casing. Because the original case takes all antennas including GPS inside the chunky watch strap .http://www.orsto.com/plus-watch-pcb-1.jpghttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/full-android-watch/?action=dlattach;attach=54878;image

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2013, 01:08:08 pm
content: The campaign failed to meet the target and he pockets the £22,000.His new PLUS+ watch campaign is $4,500 into a $128,000 target and will also likely fail.Wonder how long they can keep this up?

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2013, 06:41:53 pm
content: Indiegogo has reached a new low - tantamount to being complicit in these destined-for-failure projects.This campaign was Flexible Funding, which means he gets the $$$ whether it reaches the goal or not, but is supposed to deliver on the rewards.So the campaign ended, what, yesterday? It did not hit the 65,000GBP goal, but it did reach 22,000GBP. And after several of the backers asked what the status is, Paul Gill replies..."This was a crowdfunding campaign for development of a new product. Contributors to crowdfunding realise that they are becoming part of a crowd of investors in a ‘not risk free’ project. That includes ourselves who have pumped our own money into this campaign.It did not reach its goal, but as the majority of contributors had requested a different style, we are offering porting to the PLUS+ Watch campaign as a goodwill gesture on our part."Basically saying "hey, it didn't hit the target so we're not doing it. You can move your pledge to this other project I'm doing, otherwise f-off".I contacted IGG about this project and their response was that their trust and security team do a lot of checking, both pre and ongoing, of creators and projects, but that ultimately it is up to the backer to judge the likelihood of project success.So this guy has shystered $35,000USD on this project, openly admits he's not going to be delivering anything, and also has another project ongoing with the same terms.And IGG allows this.Insanity.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2013, 07:23:49 pm
content: So just stop funding IGG projects, and limit yourself to Kickstarter projects, which seem to have a better system and less obviously fraudulent projects. The lack of a flexible funding being a major difference. Too bad for the project creators outside the US/UK, but I feel that IGG has tolerated too much of this crap to earn any more of our business.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2013, 07:52:13 pm
content: Quote from: alm on July 31, 2013, 07:23:49 pmI don't fund IGG projects. My comments on this thread are just to raise awareness amongst this group, as well as the Google Searchers who stumble across the site later - and also with the likely naive hope that some day, IGG will care what their online reputation is like and will see that pretty much everyone who knows anything about crowdfunding considers their site to be rife with scams.Kickstarter is only minutely better. They do virtually zero vetting of project creators, and they also do not offer any assistance when a creator takes the money and runs.I read an article on Inc yesterday about this guy:http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/forkingpath/the-doom-that-came-to-atlantic-city/commentsRaised over $120k, quit his job, moved to Portland, OR and rented a nice historic house and lived off the money for a year - traveling, shopping, etc, and just announced to his funders last week that the money is gone, there will be no project, etc. KS's response is to "remind him" that he has to work it out with the backers. LOL!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2013, 11:02:31 pm
content: KS is by no means perfect and have had their fair share of fraudsters. But at least they're trying. For example the policy change that prohibited rendered products in intro movies.Can't say the same about IGG. It seems like a new dodgy IGG project is almost a weekly occurrence. Flexible funding and deletion of comments (does KS allow this?) invite fraud in my opinion. Of the dodgy projects discussed on this forum, eg: this watch, thought phone, Keef's project, the thermal camera, the far majority, if not all of them, came from IGG.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 02:53:18 am
content: Quote from: alm on July 31, 2013, 11:02:31 pmI know a guy who invested in the Orsto X1 watch. Nice guy but he was really naive about the whole thing and assumed IGG was vetting these projects out. I was talking to him about it this week and he sort of dejectedly told me he's done with crowdfunding and realizes it's all just a scam. I said much the same as you did above - that it's not a scam but maybe a bit more like the wild west.It ticked me off and I ended up sending a somewhat scathing email to IGG's support team. They got back to me with a surprisingly responsive email asking for more info - so I gave it to them (including links to this thread).And shortly thereafter, the X1 project was deleted from the IGG website. And so was the follow-up "Plus+Watch" project. Both gone.I am quite surprised. Shocked actually, but big props to IGG for doing it.I wonder what happens to the 22,000GBP that was taken in? I wonder if that money was dispensed yet?

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 03:29:46 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on August 01, 2013, 02:53:18 amI think with Flex Funding - the funds goes straight to the project originator on IGG. I have backed a small project with Flex Funding - and money left from paypal straight to funders paypal - minus a fee to IGG.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 03:33:35 am
content: Quote from: kaz911 on August 01, 2013, 03:29:46 amI thought so too, but in the back-and-forth with IGG over the course of the day, they mentioned that they have facilities to prevent $$ going through or to pull back $$$ when things get sketchy.It raises another interesting (or disturbing?) point - since IGG has yanked the X1 project, and since there is no discussion forum on IGG, what are backers supposed to do now? If the funds were already dispersed, it almost makes it easier for the creator to cut and run... and IGG just eliminated much of the (overt) paper trail.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 03:42:36 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 31, 2013, 06:41:53 pmFarkBTW, what happened to the project page, the original link does not work.Googling Ostro watch only brings up this forum.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 03:50:14 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 01, 2013, 03:42:36 amhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/full-android-watch/msg270367/#msg270367IGG did the right thing. But I HOPE they clawed back the $$$ before leaving all those backers with no info, no explanation, no project page, no ability to comment.On the plus side, if EEVBlog comes up when you search Orsto, maybe some of the backers will find their way here!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 03:54:52 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on August 01, 2013, 03:50:14 amJust saw that.So indiegogo deliberately just delete the page and all comments and history off the internet?The right thing to do? No way, that's just crazy.The right thing to do would be to keep the page in place but mark it with the reason why it has been shut down, and keep people posted on the status. e.g. the money has/has not been recovered etc.By deleting campaigns indiegogo are potentially leaving themselves open to the charge of deliberate coverup of fraud.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 03:59:08 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 01, 2013, 03:54:52 amYep, I agree - I think they did the right thing in shutting it down, but deleting it leaves everyone who is out real money wondering what happened and why. I wonder what IGG says to backers who contact them to ask what's up.That's what I was getting at before - if they tell them "we pulled it.. now it's between you and the project creator", it almost leaves backers in a worse spot, because they have no forum to band together and share info, nor do they have an official place for communication from the creator.We'll see what happens from here on... then again, we may see nothing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 04:24:51 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on August 01, 2013, 03:59:08 amYep.Ulimately one of these cases is going to end up in court one day, and if indiegogo aren't lucky, they might very well find out they had the legal obligation to provide some modicum of support for financial backers. Shutting down the entire page and trying to erase the entire project from existence is the worst thing they could possibly do in my view. Same with deleted comments etc if they haven't archived those.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 04:45:17 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 01, 2013, 03:54:52 amStalin used to have his adversaries killed and "photoshopped" out of old photos and all references to them removed like they never existed.

author: Booh
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 10:34:53 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on August 01, 2013, 03:50:14 amHi everyoneI am a cheated contributor of the orsto-campaign an found this forum a few weeks ago, when it was already too late.It was the my second attempt to support crowdfunding and will be my last, because the system behind is not acceptable.The backers of this campaign did not have a chance.When I found out that critical comments and questions got deleted by Gill and the promised product changed, I started making screenshots. I contacted IGG support to get out of this campaign.I contacted Paypal to get my money back ... no success so far.I wrote more mails with screenshots attached to IGG telling them that this will be a fraud, but they supported him with the second campaign.I tried to get in touch with other backers but the IGG system did not allow this. Even I was on the same campaign the system came always up with the message saying I need to be on the same campaign to send messages. And Gill continued with comment deleting and telling nonsense.This type of crowdfunding practised by IGG is an open gate for cheaters and should not have a future.Fair enough, we supported the impossible and wanted to make a bargain, but do not most campaigns start like this?The point is, communication was just not possible to warn the crowd and IGG did not do anything in an earlier stage when they got warned.Now, IGG removed all orsto-pages but I didnt get message of IGG. It seems like the supporters of a campaign have no rights at all.To raise awareness to the public concerning crowdfunding I think about of writing an article in a daily newspaper. The entire email traffic of the story is still here.Sry for my bad english.

author: notzippy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 03:19:28 pm
content: I am pretty sure Flex funding does not go directly to the person, it is still held by IGG till campaign completion. The reason for this is that if the goal is reached IGG charges one rate and if it is not then IGG charges a different rate.Since the watch end date was July 31 and the project was yanked I am guessing the funds will be refunded. I have been snaking IGG on and off for a while, they must have done a bit of a clean house cause 260 projects were removed in the last couple days.nz

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 03:31:59 pm
content: Hopefully the scammer will see not a penny and everyone will be refunded.

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 04:44:37 pm
content: First things to check,is on the internet [ x ]is it too good to be true [ x ]conclusion->IT'S A SCAMSeriously, what has changed in the internet, since it was all scam and adult entertainment and all the bad stuff?Before, even small bits of something smelly made people go the long way around. In a case of huge steaming pile people seem to like it and gather around and tell others what a wonderful thing it is. Now everyone and their mothers promise stuff in the name of this awesome crowdfunding.When is it too late to chargeback on paypal/creditcard? I guess it's too late when things just continue to be promised month after month while spending other peoples money. In the end all people have is the words of some guy on a youtube video with nothing tangible to show.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 05:01:22 pm
content: IGG are still just scammers. They can't be arsed to shut downhttp://www.indiegogo.com/projects/tarc-the-first-free-energy-thought-magnifier

author: notzippy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 05:22:30 pm
content: People have been buying / selling from snake charmers for over 100 years... This is just a new form of it. That said there are some gems among the crap. Just do your research and if it sounds to good to be true it likely is. But it is people like those on this forum that keeps people educated so keep it up the good work..But your right this guy is bat shit crazy

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 05:38:09 pm
content: He is not happy. Asked him why it has been shut down:Quote

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 05:40:45 pm
content: IGG just gave him an easy exit. He wanted to collect more money, obviously, but there will be another project from him, I'm sure.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 06:00:05 pm
content: Quote from: Booh on August 01, 2013, 10:34:53 amI am very sorry that this happened to you. From what I have been told, the money was collected by IGG, but was NOT send to Paul Gill - and IGG are refunding everyone who contributed to the X1 campaign. So, you should be getting your money back hopefully. I would contact IGG about that, and if possible, also file a dispute through PayPal.I've heard through the IGG grapevine that Paul Gill said the comments which he deleted were racist and/or intended to be offensive to IGG/Orsto. That is complete bullshit. I printed out a few screenshots - it was the same thing every day. After about midnight GMT (7pm Eastern USA time, 4pm California time), comments would pile up from people asking what was going on, why there were no answers, etc, etc. When about 8am GMT, the comments would get deleted. In other words, Paul Gill seems to have woken up, and just deleted anything he didn't like. The "racist" claim is despicable, I never saw a single such comment.I sincerely hope IGG does not reinstate his "Plus Watch" campaign. This guy is a shyster and deserves no quarter.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 06:38:13 pm
content: It at least looks like the plus watch exists, even if it is just a cheap Chinese smartwatch with no substantial feature base, the Orsto X1 on the other hand never existed and was merely a set of drawings in photoshop.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 07:36:10 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 01, 2013, 06:38:13 pmI dunno about that... the plus watch is also just a bunch of shoddy renderings and bad photoshopping of it being on people's wrists. There are other watches that exist that look similar to the "plus watch", but the prototypes he claimed were just $70 cheap watch-phones from Alibaba disassembled. He never actually showed anything real as his plus watch.. it was all renderings, IIRC.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 07:52:11 pm
content: The plus-watch looks real in this photo. It could be a rendering, but it is a good one if so:

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 08:00:25 pm
content: Yes, this one is exactly what you get from Alibaba. With Android 1.6 from 5 years ago.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 08:08:14 pm
content: You're right.. I had forgotten about those pics... but I tend to think they are just the $70 Alibaba watch with maybe a different bezel. Someone posted a pic earlier in the thread of "his" prototype which perfectly matched the Alibaba one.It raises an interesting question about what this guy's endgame was. He might have thought if enough people gave money, it would cover the development costs of miniaturizing the one he bought from the Alibaba supplier as the "X1", and when that became untenable, the backup plan was just to sell people a repackaged Z1 for double the price.Either way, he certainly misrepresented a lot of aspects of the project - good riddance, IMO.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 08:58:09 pm
content: I believe that he is just re-selling cheap watches. Not strictly against IGG policy, but dodgy nonetheless.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2013, 06:33:11 pm
content: Final result, all £22,000 looks to be refunded:Quote

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2013, 09:10:26 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 02, 2013, 06:33:11 pmMy god, that guy is a liar to the core and a liar to the end.His campaign was cancelled because he said he was not making the X1 watch and instead was offering to port their funding to the plus watch. When people asked about still doing the X1, he said "hey, that's the risk of crowdfunding - we have money tied up in this too". That is why IGG cancelled it, because he acknowledged he had no intention of making the X1 at that point... which was after he already pulled a bait and switch - the campaign was originally for an X1 smart watch, which he later changed (because all the info was hosted on his own server) to just a machined housing for the plus watch.And he claims the campaigns were cancelled because he revealed some info on other campaigns and IGG didn't like that?This guy is a pathological liar. I am sure he is completely unable to see that he did anything wrong and blames it 100% on IGG and the "trolls" who complained that they were being scammed out of money.He's lucky he's not in jail!

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2013, 09:30:55 am
content: The plus-watch website is now down and the Orsto site says to wait for 7th August (tomorrow) for an update... wonder what they will do.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2013, 03:43:29 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 06, 2013, 09:30:55 amIn another lie, Orsto man Paul Gill claimed he was refunding people despite PayPal saying it was past the time limit for refunds, and he was eating the PayPal, credit card, and currency conversion fees. A lie, since it was IGG who initiated a mass refund of the campaign and PayPal refunded everyone. Nothing to do with Orsto as they never got the money to begin with.I have heard that the backers have gotten full refunds from PayPal.As for Orsto, he had a belligerent and retaliatory message on his home page in bright yellow text, which was removed soon after. Presumably he is re-crafting his message and will be going to one of the other (even) less reputable crowdfunding sites.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 09, 2013, 03:11:19 am
content: NOTE:I have been contacted by Paul Gill directly about this thread, with all sorts of details to clear up the facts.But I have no desire to comment on these or get involved in this issue, and will not act as an arbitrator or public go-between. I have advised him to post directly himself if he wants to clear the air.He has asked that I post a note to try and end any personal attacks made directly against him, and I have not read the whole thread to determine if that's has happened, but that's fair enough.So please no personal attacks.I would advise Paul that because this is a public access forum, the best way to clear the air is to post directly and answer questions himself. Not doing so can only lead to further speculation on the part of the public about his project.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2013, 04:30:42 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2013, 03:11:19 amWas the word "lawyer" mentioned?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 09, 2013, 04:32:05 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on September 09, 2013, 04:30:42 amNope. Would be laughable if that was the case.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 09, 2013, 06:06:52 am
content: Presumably this thread is showing up when people do Google searches.Paul, since you are reading this thread, you need to acknowledge the reasons your project on IGG failed without continuing to fabricate untruths.I saw the emails to you from IGG. They did not cancel your project because you were critical of the Kreyos. They cancelled it because you welched out on your obligation to deliver the rewards to your backers. You openly acknowledged having no intention to deliver with your "hey this was a risk, we lost money too" post at the close of funding. That is why IGG cancelled your project and that is what they told you in the email. You also told them you only deleted racist comments, which they knew was another untruth when some of your PO'ed backers send them screenshots showing that you deleted comments that were merely critical of your ability to complete the project. And you told the backers you did not change the specs despite the fact that many had screenshots showing otherwise, that they also forward to IGG.IGG told you in the email they sent exactly why they dropped your project and company from their service, but you completely misrepresented the reasons afterwards.You also continually try to promote yourself by putting others down. Do you think people watching your project don't know that this is your fourth completely different "smart watch" design in as many months? Do you think people react positively when your company that has failed to raise funding multiple times claims other successful companies are simply lying to their backers?

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2013, 07:14:54 am
content: New crowdfunding campaing running, boy I'm glad they stopped using that really unprofessional indiegogo who removed they campaing.http://fundanything.com/en/campaigns/plus-watchI guess they are using fixed funding?I like how he gets disoriented on that tiny screen everytime he is suppose to swipe or press.I also like he is not totally trying spread the word about his watch on other peoples/companies videos with youtube comments:https://www.youtube.com/user/orsto1(check the comment/comments) WOW thats like a real determination right there.I guess he was thinking "free marketing" who could say no to that?In the beginning he almost likes to switch things up from copy pasting the same thing.Why are they using the same hand model on every real picture or video they have?Discussing orsto and their watches was still ok, if it didn't include personal attacks against Mr. Gill?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2013, 08:35:37 am
content: I guess this sounded promising:Quote from:http://fundanything.com/en/howNothing like fixed funding. Or refunds if your campaign gets pulled.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2013, 12:57:58 pm
content: You can flag this video as SCAM on Youtube

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2013, 01:40:13 pm
content: Well the video is not technically a scam or anything, however taking money from people and promising things that aren't true is generally considered scamming. People who tell these thing might have different opinions about the matter.Why don't they do some publicity by sending prototype to some entity that can tell their honest opinion about it. Dear Orsto, please take advice, send your watch or invite someone trustworthy to review it. Trustworthy is someone who isn't paid to say good things about the product and will give their honest opinion about it and it's performance and confirm the claims you have made. If it isn't total crap and you can actually deliver the goods, you will make lots of money with it. No need to try putting "competitors" down with somewhat questionable claims and such, just let your product do the work. If you release a good product no one cares about the competition. Trying to put competitors down or censoring stuff will make you look like a total idiot (if it already hasn't).Good authentic reviews about a product sells better than what you are doing.

author: voice of reason
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 13, 2013, 07:34:50 pm
content: I do not want to get caught up in a shit storm. BUT. It would appear here that there is a bit of a campaign maybe aimed at the wrong people.I tell you why. My lad contributed to the first igg ORSTO x1 campaign. He was also one of the vocal contributors saying that a squarer shaped device would look a whole lot cooler than a round one.They obviously spent time and money on building a new prototype. In reply to what folk like him had asked for.I do know for a fact that igg gave them instructions to start a new campaign for the square device. pluswatch. I have actually seen the email from igg to ORSTO telling them that.So campaign 2 starts. I also know that certain people at ORSTO company were asked about their opinion on the technical feasibility of the Kraos watch.I do know that at some point they told igg that the krayos was a little suspect. But igg swiftly pulled their campaign overnight.Now whether you like it or not igg do have a reputation for being a set of big headed gits just like ks do.Now the other ins and outs I do not know much about. However, I do know that my lad got a paypal refund direct from the ORSTO paypal account. So ORSTO must have had at least some of the money. So they must have made the decision to repay contributors. That in itself in my book is commendable. Because I know of many people or companies who would never ever, ever have repaid a penny.As for igg, they ignored everyone of my lads emails and never replied to any messages on their landlines. I think that tells you something.Personally I prefer to deal with a company that has a landline and answers the phone. When I look at these websites that have no contact address or phone line, I cannot help but think that they are just a bit dodgy.Would I use a crowdfunding website ? probably not. I would wait and pay a little extra for the product at my local store where I could have a good look and feel before I handed over my hard earned cash.I do also agree with Corporate 666 that people as a rule who contribute to a crowdfunding campaign, most likely do so because they want the perk. Not because they want to be charitable.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 10:15:07 am
content: Quote from: voice of reason on September 13, 2013, 07:34:50 pmIMPORTANT:This "Voice of Reason" forum user is using theexact sameIP address as the IP address used by Paul Gill in his personal email to me.The account was also opened one day after his email to me.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 10:24:59 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 14, 2013, 10:15:07 amAnd why isn't he banned then for sockpuppeting?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 10:34:05 am
content: Because it could be a NAT proxy. He really has to step deep in the dog turds before he will be banned again. Perhaps he is not totally insane, repeating the same actions and hoping for a change.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 10:37:59 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on September 14, 2013, 10:34:05 amThen it is his lucky day and he should buy a lottery ticket.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 10:59:28 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on September 14, 2013, 10:24:59 amThe account has been banned.

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 11:00:43 am
content: If he is using some mobile wireless broadband or similar all of their customers might be behind same NAT. That might be the case where I live, we have unlimited mobile "broadband" and it's also cheap.Dave is the dns tied to that ipaddress unique or does it point to something that might be such nat proxy?If you do google search with the last part of the dns tied to that IP, isp website might have info if it is indeed behind NAT proxy or something.Like I have "numbers_my_direct_ip.my-isp.com"if my internets were behind NAT my dns might look something like "xxx.nat.my-isp.com" (example from my internet service providers site)No need to reveal anything private about it.However, even the way he writes sounds suspicious. Why would he be "caught in a shitstorm", if it wasn't really personal to him and actually knows intimate details about the project. When we consider the fact that Orsto aka. Paul Gill has done such things before, I think we can reasonably assume it's him.Mr. Gill, please learn to behave and do things like normal people do, or just go home.Seeing is believing, nothing can beat the fact that when you actually deliver what you promised. That would be considered sticking it down the throats of people who doubted you and your products.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 11:12:33 am
content: Quote from: Legit-Design on September 14, 2013, 11:00:43 amIn theory, yes.But when the account was created one day after he emailed me, and here this person is defending the campaign with quite detailed points, using an email address from inbox.com that gets no google searches for anything else, and using a very similar tone to his email to me.What are the odds?QuoteMy immediate instinct upon reading the post was that yes, it sounded very suspicious, hence I then checked the IP address.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 11:17:58 am
content: Quote from: Legit-Design on September 14, 2013, 11:00:43 amI have no idea how to test for that.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 11:26:18 am
content: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_DNS_lookuplook up the info onhttp://whois.net/reverse-dns-ip-lookup/

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 11:28:25 am
content: Using a ip-lookup/dns lookuphttp://whatismyipaddress.com/ip-lookup, in that case the "hostname" might give hint if the ip address is actually nat/proxy. For my address those are "numbers_my_direct_ip.my-isp.com" but in most cases it wont tell directly if it is actually ISP nat/whatever. With my cell phone I have unlimited dataplan I actually get something similar to "xxx.nat.my-isp.com". If it is more cryptic than that then normally a quick google search might be sufficient way to determine that.Usually this involves gamers since ip address from such NAT-connections are banned from servers, ping too high.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 11:30:59 am
content: Quote from: Legit-Design on September 14, 2013, 11:00:43 amNo kidding, that entire post just exudes red flags from it's red flag exuding hole.But on the bright side, when you watch this videoand then substitute "spam" with "scam" things are looking up already.I think IGG should adopt that as their new motto. Scam scam scam wonderfuuuuul scaaaaaam.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 11:33:16 am
content: Based on the data presented, claiming that someone from the same ISP happened to get the same IP and registered on the same day he sent that e-mail to support this project in a suspicious way (explicitly trying to appear an outsider) seems very far fetched. Not something worth worrying about since this is not a criminal proceeding.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 11:41:12 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on September 14, 2013, 11:26:18 amI used that with the IP and got a server IP address of 128.242.54.18 which is for Verio Web Hosting in Englewood USA.An IP tracer shows the ISP is Griffin Information Systems Limited in the UK.I still do not understand this stuff, sorry.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 11:51:14 am
content: You can also have a look at the header from the e-mail you received for some extra tidbits. Mail route can usually give you an extra clue.

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 11:54:24 am
content: That site tells the actual DNS after "name ="http://whatismyipaddress.com/ip-lookupthis site tells the same info on "Hostname:"It is highly unlikely that "voice of reason" was not Paul Gill, but it's still an option.But if he does things like this, I think we will hear more about him.My opinion is that it's just embarrassing and petty.If he had a choice to pay back the contributors, it was only that he gives the ok himself or paypal close his account (by force) and refund people.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 11:59:13 am
content: Englewood Colorado is where this is physically. So most likely a home connection and not a NAT at all. Does this annoyance live in the area? If so then it is his home connection.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 12:01:18 pm
content: Quote from: Legit-Design on September 14, 2013, 11:54:24 amno, not an option, "Services:Suspected proxy server" tells everything.The probability that "voice of reason" used exact the same proxy as Paul did is 1/3.1415926^999

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 12:03:13 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on September 14, 2013, 11:59:13 amDave took the server: 128.242.54.18 from that site, instead of the actual DNS. Orsto resides in UK. I get the same server: 128.242.54.18 when I search my ip, with that tool. That tool tells the dns after "name=" , like I wrote before.

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 12:06:23 pm
content: Quote from: tinhead on September 14, 2013, 12:01:18 pmWith my mobile broadband I can get same IP from my isp as thousands (or maybe hundreds) of other users. If Paul and voice of reason were using same isp (also if they live in same country/area) then odds would be considerably higher. But I'm not sure if things are the same in UK.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 12:18:30 pm
content: Quote from: Legit-Design on September 14, 2013, 11:54:24 amIt has:Non-authoritative answer:57.118.177.95.in-addr.arpa name = theIPaddress.fid.mops2.co.uk.The "fid.mops2.co.uk" part matches what SMF tells me for "hostname", and also the email header tells me.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 04:24:35 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 14, 2013, 10:15:07 amLOL!I thought the writing style was almost identical to the emails I was shown from him to IGG, and it was not realistic that he knew the detailed info merely by virtue of his "lad" being a contributor to the campaign.So, yet more proof that Gill is dishonest and has no problem bending the truth for personal gain!

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 04:33:10 pm
content: I guess the real Paul Gill could still claim it wasn't him behind this, but only if he didn't respond to Dave from email address (showing it was really him) registered to orsto, or really linked to him. Meaning someone sent the email with spoofed sender. Like Dave told earlier someone sent email claiming to be Paul was concerned about personal attacks against Paul Gill in this thread. Then this person from same IP address with very high probability came here sharing inside information and trying to make orsto look like the good guy since they "gave" people their money back.This could be really clever way to make Paul Gill look bad and stupid, or just the tip of the iceberg of what he has been doing all along.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 04:35:03 pm
content: And just to reply to Paul directly... since we all know he is still reading this.Quote from: voice of reason on September 13, 2013, 07:34:50 pmI watched the comments religiously. Nobody was requesting a square shaped watch. The creator was moving in that direction and kept telling people that most of the contributors wanted it. Which was strange because that was not reflected in the comments.QuoteNot true. As was shown earlier in this thread, the "prototype" was just an off-the-shelf part from China that can be bought on many sites today. It was not his design. He downgraded the specs to match the off-the-shelf watch he purchased, then denied that the specs had changed when backers called him on it.QuoteI have seen the email also. IGG told him that it was not really acceptable to change the original project to something else, and that if he wanted to offer a different product, it would need to be through a new campaign.QuoteI do not believe for one second that IGG would solicit feedback from a project creator to check their opinion on another project creator. It is infinitely less likely that they would do so with the intent of tricking the first project creator into saying something bad so that they could ban them and cancel their project. Much more likely is that what IGG told you in their email is why your project was cancelled - because you outright stated you have no intention to fulfill the X1 project rewards. You told the backers in response to whether they were going to get their X1 watch (paraphrasing) "Hey, we all knew this was a risk when we started - we lost money too". In other words, you stated you intended to keep the money and not deliver the X1. IGG reminded you that you were obligated to fulfill the rewards regardless of funds raised, which you agreed to with your flexible funding campaign, and because you stated your intent not to fulfill rewards, they cancelled the project an refunded everyone.QuoteThat is the kind of thing I would think if I was turned down by both parties.QuoteFalse. I have a copy of an email from Orsto to a backer where he states he did not ever get any money from IGG and if the backer wants a refund, he can talk to IGG.QuoteSince "your lad" would be the son of the project creator and is probably a fictional character, that's not surprising.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 04:37:35 pm
content: Quote from: Legit-Design on September 14, 2013, 04:33:10 pmThat would be a whole lot of work to go to just to "frame" him. And this person would need the ability to write in the same manner as Paul Gill, and they would need to know what his email header information was and/or his IP address, and how to fake it.That Venn diagram gets into beyond-microscopic sizes. Add in the motivation factor and it's 0.0

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 10:52:06 pm
content: The user Voice of Reason made 7 posts, every post of which used the same IP address as Paul Gill's email.Then since being banned for sockpuppeting (and I made Paul aware of this, which to be fair he denies), the user has tried to access the forum multiple times under that same IP address, and then for a 5 minute window tried another IP address, and then back to the original, and now back to the new IP. The first attempt by this IP address was to access the crowd funded board directly as a guest. In fact most of the IP activity on this account links to the crowd funded board directly.SMF tells me there are no other users in the same IP address range.Also, the user Voice of Reason has been made clearly aware that they have been banned for sockpuppetting and using the same IP as Paul Gill, but I have had no complaint from the anonymous inbox.com email. And from the jumping from guest to logged in tracked cookie account, the user has clearly tried to use a different machine or browser to access the forum to read threads in only the crowd funded board.I wish to make people aware (if you didn't know), that the Simple Machine Forum software provides extensive IP and account tracking with date and time, and parts of the forum visited.That includes guests just browsing the forum, you don't have to be a member or logged in, it tracks everything.I have informed Paul I will no longer enter into any email correspondence with him, but he is free to join this forum under his real name to discuss his project and answer questions.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 15, 2013, 12:52:19 am
content: SMF is almost as powerful as the NSA i seems. By the way, one of the 7 posts was an attempt to list the concurrent watch as a bogus project in our 'bogus crowdsourcing projects' thread. It's all so obvious.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 15, 2013, 02:12:45 am
content: Damn, I've been ignoring this thread since it was created - mostly because I'm not at all interested in any kind of watch.I can see now that was a mistake. This thread is where all the action is at

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2013, 03:39:38 am
content: Quote from: jancumps on September 15, 2013, 12:52:19 amLooooool!!!Seriously? Damn, I missed that one. More transparent than a highly transparent object that is really really (really) transparent. Some people....

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 15, 2013, 04:00:26 am
content: Quote from: mrflibble on September 15, 2013, 03:39:38 amhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/list-of-dodgy-crowd-source-funded-projects/msg291225/#msg291225Paul also sent me that exact link in his very first email to me as well, raving on about how dodgy it was.And the first post is classic "build my account rep" 101:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/you-don't-understand-what-crowd-funding-is-or-how-it-works/msg289365/#msg289365by trying to appear to be impartial, while laying the groundwork that idigigogo and kickstarter are not playing the game right, and plugging the lesser sites that Orsto is now on.He claims that the forum account is not his, and his excuse is "this is a big building and the local area must have a population of 2 - 3 million people at least". Oh dearHe has said I can reproduce his entire email, but I won't, he can post his own waffle under a real non-sockpuppet account.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 15, 2013, 05:11:50 am
content: Honestly, my first thought when I saw all those posts from a new account on those crowdfunding threads was "crap, looks like Keef is bored again".

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 15, 2013, 07:21:45 am
content: He also claims that "overwhelming response from my customers" pushed him to develop the rectangle shape, except the poll on his own website shows the vast majority of respondents wanted the round shapehttp://www.motolab.org/polls-and-surveys.htmlAnd in another lie, he claims all these publications have positive articles on his company/producthttp://www.orsto.com/in-the-press.htmlWell, I have heard of Boston.com, Statesman.com and SF Business Journal. All are major publications. Guess what - a search of each of their sites turns up zero. Actually, if you do a search on plus+watch and/or Orsto and constrain the results to the past week, all you get are people reposting his own press release. I can't find a single article by anyone about his watch or company.So just more bullshit.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2013, 09:15:01 am
content: It looked like a scam from the beginning. Now that the author tried to impersonate another person to spread lies it is clear this whole thing IS A SCAM and should be investigated by the police.

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2013, 11:27:38 am
content: Quote from: Legit-Design on September 13, 2013, 07:14:54 amHe changed the campaign, removed the video, removed info from his websitehttp://www.orsto.com/Another project with key information removed and he already got the money, I guess now he can actually prove to himself he can return the money if he wants to.Or otherwise the money would be taken from him since it would be a scam.Pictures I just got when going to his website...Orsto X1 and X2 seem to be back.I wonder what happened to the other chinese smartwatches he demonstrated on that removed video.They actually looked much better than this bulky X2 thing.Removing all info and leaving no evidence behind looks kinda dodgy. (it's internet there is always evidence left behind)

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 24, 2013, 04:29:18 am
content: So it looks like Paul Gill has pulled the rug out from funders yet again. He has changed his website, removing all mention of the "Bliss" and "Dynamic" watch. When questioned about this on his FundAnything campaign, he states that they will not be making either of these watches, and people who pledged "will get one from his limited prototype stock", and that the campaign is now for distributorships, not watches.http://fundanything.com/en/campaigns/plus-watch/commentsIt's interesting to note that someone else pointed out another Android watch that precisely matched the one he claimed to be looking for funding for. So, presumably it was another pre-existing Chinese-made Android watch that he was flogging.And apparently now he's back to the X1/X2?Bizarre soap opera, this.

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2013, 01:02:18 am
content: Quote from:http://www.orsto.com/plus-watch-x3-smartwatch.htmlI wonder where he got this idea of sending samples for reviews.I would like to see someone credible do a review, someone who doesn't do bullshit. Too bad Mr. Orsto doesn't have a good track record so credible people maybe don't want to get involved with him in any way.Quote from:http://www.orsto.com/plus-watch-x3-smartwatch.htmlI don't think this going to be any different than what we have previously seen from Mr. Orsto, same sh*t different package. Or maybe no watch at all, like with the X1. If he actually has prototypes available in future, I wonder if he could do a real kickstarter? Atleast kickstarter removes outright scams. Or maybe no crowdfunding at all? That would be first, just sell watches on ebay or own store.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 25, 2013, 01:33:59 am
content: Quote from: Legit-Design on September 25, 2013, 01:02:18 amI won't touch the guy with a 10 foot pole.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 16, 2014, 08:59:57 am
content: Looks like Mr Gill tried to sell equity in his company on CrowdCube:http://crowdcube.dev.crowdcube.com/investment/orsto-13749

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 04:38:30 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 16, 2014, 08:59:57 amHe's done everything except actually deliver anything

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 06:00:13 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 16, 2014, 08:59:57 amI see "Experienced company founder Paul" is precisely that.i.e, he knows how to file papers at Companies House, and is experienced in doing that and dissolving the companies too. We call them Phoenix Companies over here and are a well known legal scam against not just the customers/investors but the taxman as well. Quite how the government hasn't tackled this blatant fraud is beyond me. I guess MPs like to hold dodgy corporate paper structures and so enjoy their benefits too.Also it looks like some poor mug has potentially lost an individual "investment" of £12,000 too. Ouch!

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 06:15:00 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on March 17, 2014, 06:00:13 pmWe can only hope said poor mug made the investment using Nigerian bitcoins.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 09:52:54 pm
content: Quote from: mrflibble on March 17, 2014, 06:15:00 pm...are you telling me that slightly camp serf' african chap Martin Lorton is the investor, after he got bitten by the bug of ASIC BTC mining?

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2014, 02:33:33 am
content: just read this entire thread after getting here from the "top 10 projects ppl were duped by" thread.mostly ALL the links and videos from the project are gone, as well as any web sites linked to. all gone/dead/deleted.i did however, click on a link to the youtube account, and i noticed that there were 2 new videos posted in the last day, so it appears that the scam is back on and/or still going.i didnt actually watch the vids, wasnt that interested in gill's bullshit, but im sure someone here will take the time to check it out so i just wanted to stir the pot and throw a bit of gas on the dying fire

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2014, 02:35:40 am
content: https://www.youtube.com/user/orsto1/videos

author: Isa123
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 08:58:50 am
content: Quote from: Rufus on May 29, 2013, 11:56:40 pmI also did a background check on Paul Gill and currently he is a director athttp://www.bizdb.co.uk/company/brokerhub-limited-04485972/

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 07:06:44 pm
content: Quote from: Isa123 on August 20, 2015, 08:58:50 amWrong Paul Gill.