crimping spade connectors -- fail! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: samcramer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 06:36:09 pm
content: I am trying to make a small cable with a male 2.8mm spade terminal on one end and a female 6.3mm spade terminal on the other end. I'm using 18 AGW wire.I am having a difficult time figuring out how to crimp these terminals. I purchased an assortment of terminals like the ones shown below. I am using a Klein 3005CE crimper (also shown below), which has 3 crimping cavities; the smallest is marked "22-16". Try as I may, I can't crimp the terminals. Is this due to crappy terminals which don't have an insulating sleeve? To a crimper which isn't small enought? To cockpit error?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 06:38:26 pm
content: That crimper is designed for insulated terminals, as indicated by the red/blue/yellow colouring on the jaws

author: samcramer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 06:42:11 pm
content: Ah, so this is the type of terminal I need, right?

author: thephil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 06:49:25 pm
content: Yes. Either that or a crimping tool for uninsulated terminals.Crinping is fun but a PITA if you don't have the right tool...

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 09:38:07 pm
content: Quote from: samcramer on August 09, 2023, 06:42:11 pmNo. The isolated crimp connectors are cr*p. You need the right crimping tool plus isolation sleeves (if necessary).Example:https://www.amazon.com/Twidec-Crimping-Pliers-26-16AMG-Terminals/dp/B08J3SDJTXNote the shape of the crimp jaws.

author: aeberbach
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 11:06:40 pm
content: I never found a good and affordable hand crimper for spades. These days I crimp and then solder and then heatshrink or slide on insulated sleeves. It’s a good way to be sure for low volumes.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 11:33:45 pm
content: QuoteLike everything you gets what you pays for. The whonhunglo elcheapos are shite,pay the money for a decent brand ,use the correct size crimp for the cable size and a decent crimper and life gets a lot nicer

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 11:35:55 pm
content: Quote from: aeberbach on August 09, 2023, 11:06:40 pmSoldering is the worst option ever, not just for spade terminals, but for all stranded wire connections.Spade connectors were made for automotive and industrial applications, meaning stress and vibration.The stranded wire will eventually break at a point around 3 mm from the solder joint, in the area where solid (due to solder) turns to stranded.This will never happen on correctly crimped connections."SN-48B" is the generic name for the crimp tool needed, but quality differs greatly. Check the jaws for definition/sharpness/precision.Prices vary from $12 (crap) to $20...40 (OK to good).Crimping with a good tool is a joy!

author: thermistor-guy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 12:34:58 am
content: Quote from: Benta on August 09, 2023, 09:38:07 pmAlso note that the jaw profiles change from one side of the tool to the other, and that the upper and lower jaws don't have the same profile.Check the Amazon photo that has steps 1-6; zoom in on step 3. Crimp tools for Quick Connect connectors have an orientation.For best results, you have to insert the connector in the tool from the correct side, and facing the correct direction (up/down).This is so the connector deforms into the intended shape, as you apply pressure through the tool.It's easy to overlook orientation (left/right, up/down), and make poor crimps.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 04:12:01 am
content: The Klein tool is very good quality. Not the best, but very good. The terminals shown, in addition to being the wrong type for the tool,are junk.I suggest you go to a REAL electronic supply house like Mouser or DigiKey and buy some name brand terminals to learn with. Yes, they cost more. But they actually work. Once you are well acquainted with the process, then you can start to experiment with less expensive terminals.Crimp terminals are made for specific ranges of wire sizes. Be sure to use the proper terminals for each wire size in your project. And be sure tofully closethe crimping tool when you crimp.

author: samcramer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 02:54:23 pm
content: OK. Thanks to all for the good advice!

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 02:59:48 pm
content: For the none insulated terminals, I use theKNIPEX 9121215BIt is a well made tool.

author: samcramer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 03:15:09 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on August 10, 2023, 04:12:01 amI just looked for terminals on DigiKey. Trying to find the right ones there is, uh, interesting. Yes, I understand that Digikey is a supplier to the knowledgable, and that's fine. That said, can you recommend a source for an assortment of high quality terminals which includes male & female connectors sized ~2.8mm and ~6.3mm which work with 18 AGW wire?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 03:31:31 pm
content: You need:Clean, untarnished multi-strand wireA crimp terminal that is appropriate for the size of wireA crimp tool that is appropriate for the crimp terminal - both its size and whether it is insulatedAn understanding that you are trying to do more than scrunch a few strands together. That a proper crimp terminal deforms the round strands and terminal into a single mass of metal with all air excluded, and the metals bonded together. That done properly its at least a 1000 times more reliable than soldering. That it avoids the wicking that makes soldering to multi-strand wire a reliability disaster unless >100% of the wire where wicking has occurred is fully supported against flexing and vibration.Practice. Expect to mess up a bunch of terminals, as you develop a smooth and consistent style doing it.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 05:24:00 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on August 10, 2023, 02:59:48 pmThough Knipex is a good brand, I do not recommend non-ratcheting crimp tools, since you can’t be sure enough force has been applied.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 06:49:50 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 10, 2023, 05:24:00 pmFor simple terminals, this Knipex tool is perfectly alright and works very well.Ratcheting crimp tools of course is the professional way to go and they are offered by a subsidiary of Knipex, called RENNSTEIGhttps://www.rennsteig.com/produkte/kategorie/Crimp-System-L%C3%B6sungen/25134.html

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 07:25:23 pm
content: Quote from: samcramer on August 09, 2023, 06:36:09 pmHi,It looks like your terminals do not have a plastic sleeve over them and that adds to the thickness of the material so when it is crimped the tool does not squeeze it too much.Some tools like this have an adjustment where you can adjust the crimping gap on the tool. You can make it smaller or larger. You may be able to do that with yours, but if not you may need another tool or find something you can stick in there to make the gap smaller. You'd have to be sure it works right though.Alternately, maybe you can buy some new terminals.New crimp tools are not that much if you have access to Amazon, but I am not sure how much you would want to spend either.

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 08:05:52 pm
content: Especially with open barrel crimps, don't twist the strands together. This mistake is often demonstrated on YouTube tutorials.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 08:20:18 pm
content: Quote from: aeberbach on August 09, 2023, 11:06:40 pmQueue all the people to come forward yelling that soldering a crimp terminal is bad....edit: oh actually I see some have already appeared. hahaIf you want to see them squirm, ask them to pick the best option from solder-then-crimp or crimp-then-solder.I'm with you on this though, soldering a crimp terminal is fine if done by someone who knows what they are doing. You only get problems when idiots do it and allows the solder to wick down into the strain relief area. Which is easy to avoid if you know what you're doing. And most engineers do.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 09:04:55 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on August 10, 2023, 08:20:18 pmExcept arealengineer wouldn't ever do that, because it's a waste of time when the simple crimp suffices.Totally pointless.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 10:43:25 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on August 10, 2023, 09:04:55 pmCrimping is not as electrically robust as a solder joint. There's a risk the wire may pull out even if crimped following the right procedure and with the right tool.You have to 'trust' that a crimp is good because you used the correct tool to do the crimp and you followed the correct procedure. It's kinda like using a BGA in that regard.Nothing wrong with crimping and in many applications it's good and it's the best option. But choosing to solder a crimp terminal is a valid thing to do, there's just risks involved that you have to be aware of.Just because something is intended to be used one way does not automatically make it wrong to use it in a different way.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 10:54:31 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on August 10, 2023, 10:43:25 pmNo, I am still alone in this thread. You and @aeberbach are a team.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 11:04:25 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on August 10, 2023, 10:54:31 pmyeah, I removed that bit when I noticed you were the same person.The crimp vs solder thing has been discussed before on the forum, usually ends up in a hot debate.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 11:17:20 pm
content: This thread ran well until reply #18, mainly talking about what the right tools for crimping are and generally giving tips on suppliers of tools and terminals etc.Helpful to the OP, I think.Then it went astray... something to think about.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 11:28:30 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on August 10, 2023, 06:49:50 pmI'd rather use a cheap-brand ratcheting crimper over a non-ratcheting branded one, the price is about the same $20 or so. As tooki says the ratchet will guarantee crimping pressure is fairly consistent. Hand pressure is not reliable, for me.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 11:53:33 pm
content: that bit about the wire in the crimper being so compacted is a bit of a sales pitchcut one apart with a hack saw and take a pick to it. Crimps are good but the claims are getting a bit ridiculous IMO.this is what you need for a cold weld of a single strand

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 09:57:22 am
content: Quote from: Benta on August 10, 2023, 09:04:55 pmSpeaking as arealengineer: I value efficiency when I'm at work, but I sometimes grossly overengineer things when I'm wearing my hobbyist hatIf I were attaching 100 spade connectors a day at work, I would almost certainly just crimp them. But if it were just a few for some project at home, it would be hard to resist the temptation to solder them too ... just because ....

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 11:04:37 am
content: Quote from: Benta on August 10, 2023, 11:17:20 pmFair call, I shouldn't have put more light on the crimp vs solder argument and risked restarting the argument.And for that I apologie.But equality this statement of yours is pretty bad.Quote from: Benta on August 09, 2023, 11:35:55 pmStranded wire connections are soldered probably 10000's of times every day, all according to manufacturer recommendations.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 03:54:07 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on August 10, 2023, 08:20:18 pmI think that's a wildly optimistic statement.Techniciansknow what they're doing with regards to assembly methods. Engineers very frequently do not.Quote from: Psi on August 10, 2023, 10:43:25 pmAbadcrimp is not electrically robust, and may risk wire pull-out.Agoodcrimpexceedsthe robustness of a soldered joint, and the wire will break before it pulls out. A good crimp is a cold weld, with the strands and connector fusing to a solid piece of metal.The correct tools will produce a good crimp every time. But that does require that the tool, contact, and wire are all perfectly matched to each other. That's why crimping is not always sensible for hobby use or other low-volume applications.Quote from: Psi on August 10, 2023, 10:43:25 pmThere are test procedures. In proper crimping, periodic test crimps are made to verify crimp dimensions and pull strength. Some (but not all) crimp types allow each individual production crimp to be tested. But with a well-controlled process, it's not necessary.The bare minimum is a ratcheting tool, since the ratchet ensures a particular amount of force has been applied before it releases. This introduces reproducibility into the process, so that a test crimp (which can be tested destructively) is representative of production crimps.Quote from: Psi on August 10, 2023, 10:43:25 pmAbove, you make it sound like a terrible thing. But you're comparing poorly-executed crimps to expertly-executed solder joints.Quote from: Psi on August 10, 2023, 10:43:25 pmSome crimp terminals can, others categorically mustneverbe soldered. (I have seen some that expressly warn against it because of how reheating can affect the heat treatment of the contact spring itself.)The issue, however, wasn't the question of whether to solder a crimp terminal instead of crimping it, but whether to crimp itand then apply solder. If the crimp was done anything close to properly, adding solder to it will only make it worse.The only thing worse than that is to apply solder (e.g. tinning the wire) andthencrimp it, since solder cold-flows under pressure, and will eventually loosen. (Solder-crimp-solder is basically just soldered, and you may as well skip the crimp.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 03:57:07 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on August 10, 2023, 06:49:50 pmOf course Knipex/Rennsteig offers proper crimp tools, too.I stand by my statement that I do not recommend non-ratcheting crimp tools, since the crimp force is unknown (some people have enormous hand strength, others are very weak) and thus it's a totally uncontrolled process.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 04:15:20 pm
content: Can someone show me a disassembled standard crimp that is fused into a cold weld in the middle?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 05:29:01 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on August 11, 2023, 04:15:20 pmSeehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/what-crimping-tool-do-you-use-for-quick-connect-terminals/msg1003774/#msg1003774

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 09:14:08 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 11, 2023, 03:57:07 pmYou simply squeeze the tool until the metal parts just up from the grips meet, it has sufficient leverage that this is very easy for even the weak of hand. I'd be the first to agree that those Knipex crimps are not a professional grade tool, and you wouldn't find them being used on e.g. an aerospace project but they do form perfectly good crimps (on the correct types of terminal) and are easier to use than ratchet crimps IMO.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 09:16:33 pm
content: I wanna put a pick in that crimp to see how well it holds up to some pryingI have seen things that look incredibly uniform but when you apply a bit of sharp pressure it turns out to be bogus

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 09:17:47 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 11, 2023, 03:57:07 pmThe ratchet is a nice convenience, and its a good way for production people to roll a set procedure all day. However, the ratchet just detects if the crimp tool has fully closed. I've never seen a crimp tool without a ratchet where you can't clearly see from metal touching metal that the thing has fully closed. It just takes a little more care and effort.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 10:14:08 pm
content: it also clicks so no one can argue that it did not close if you heard it click. Infact it would still be jammed shut if this failure was my fault. Can't put it in the chassis if the crimp tool is stuck on.I am waiting for the day where someone finds a crimp tool jammed into the chassis so something can be put together for final test on a friday. Like a ratcheting 0 gauge crimp tool inside of some industrial machine. Because it was the last tech guy there and the tools needed to unlock the jammed crimp tool were locked up. Just zip tie the tool, screw the cover on, drop off at test and go home. easy.Actually its more likely then you think if its the last crimp and the lead time for more is 10 weeks and the wire is already stretched to almost yield point because someone optimized it to the nearest nanometer.and the best part is if they find it at some mine or whatever, and the production schedule is so tight that they put it into service after consulting engineering for some extra duct tape, who says changing tension is just too risky.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 10:17:00 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 11, 2023, 09:17:47 pmHere you go, knipex 97 21 215If the tool costs the same, but takes more care and effort, I don't know why I'd use it.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 10:46:01 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 11, 2023, 09:17:47 pmWrong. Apparently you've never possessed a crimp tool with ratchet.It ensures correct pressure, yes. Not very important.But it's essential for easy operation, unless you are born with three hands.Operation is as follows:1: place the termination in the crimp tool correctly (meaning up/down and small/large side) and close the tool until the first ratchet "click". This fixes the termination in the tool without closing it.2: insert the wire and crimp.Without the ratchet, you're juggling with termination, wire and tool in free space all at once.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 10:49:13 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on August 11, 2023, 10:17:00 pmWhy do you bring in the same POS that the OP had problems with?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 10:54:16 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on August 11, 2023, 10:46:01 pmThe main problem with crimping comes from not using appropriately sized parts and tools. If you do match them the non-ratchet tools work OK. If you don't the ratchet ones close and release and give you just as useless a result as the non-ratchet ones.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 10:55:42 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on August 11, 2023, 10:49:13 pmBecause he's not on an irrational crusade to prevent people using things which work.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 11:00:27 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on August 10, 2023, 09:04:55 pmDown the track, aRealTechnician will probably be stuck with soldering because the EE didn't crimp the connection properly, & didn't allow enough extra length to easily redo the crimp connection with a new lug after it failed.ARealProduction Dept person is meanwhile screaming to get the thing back.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 11:05:00 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 11, 2023, 10:54:16 pmYes. Don't use the wrong tool. Why didn't I think of that?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 11:05:58 pm
content: and the customer will be waiting 4 weeks for it to be released after special inspection

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 11:18:06 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on August 11, 2023, 10:17:00 pmThat tool is a piece of garbage. The lack of a ratchet is not the problem. It doesn't have properly formed jaws. Its just a connector squasher.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 11:41:13 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 11, 2023, 10:55:42 pmWhy do you think I'm "he"?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 11:43:49 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 11, 2023, 11:18:06 pmI wonder what the genuine tooling for these types of connectors looks like?Yes, they're somewhat better supported, but it's just going to be plastic extruding in different directions. It is, however, a lot harder to reliably exert sufficient force on the 'squasher'. Not a tool I'd recommend either, but I have made perfectly functional crimps with that type - and they're less sensitive to the various different forms of insulated crimp than the usual jaws on ratchet crimpers.Quote from: Benta on August 11, 2023, 11:41:13 pmI never said you were. If your best response here is to try and shame me for using a pronoun in a gender-neutral manner towards another person, you may want to find something better to do with your time. Perhaps take up that crusade - somewhere else.

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 11:54:20 pm
content: Some examples of crimping fails. Take a close look at the photos in this listing.https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/125932616918?hash=item1d522b3cd6:g:xnQAAOSwtP5iYpKM&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0FV%2BPQTz43UNlFpHkFc4Cr6RhJX0LmTfPono1Ux5sKhLQuOrcJxVqkrgiBVQQl2R648KWy9vB%2Fdy%2F815kQ5haFGIsH93QKeQpfidNCQ6rwdO8gL%2BJRSFEfD3MyjOcS%2BAGUYNaM6%2FOqrOPzVX%2FQSJF7WXh2XZZe442Oiym%2BEBI%2Bn8X8beZpXk7c0JbU7Krz6E5UG%2Feb3Uf8CrN694Ud6GOkGq2N78TeTraU0sweWFWBItLn8JmO%2BJjyT6D2BoVclbFGqjl%2Fc19MvTRRFjKllACIk%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7rFhuy8Yg

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 04:01:36 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 11, 2023, 03:54:07 pmThis is where I disagree.Maybe the correct tool that is also in perfect condition. Sure, I can accept that.But you can never be sure to the same level that you can when soldering.There's always a risk the previous user of the tool damaged it in some way that's non-obvious. Or that it's just worn out. Or any number of factors that may cause the crimp to be sub-standard even though the correct tool and technique was used.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 04:26:45 am
content: no way, that means you would have to buy like a crimp height micrometer or even a pull tester. I don't think that is a real possibility. I assure you those tools are just for decoration !11

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 10:47:05 am
content: Quote from: Psi on August 10, 2023, 10:43:25 pmHi,The way it is said and done in the power industry is that a crimp is better than solder and there are reasons for that.The way it is done is first you have to use the right crimp tool and you have to do it right. However, the success is not left to probability, it is tested. The device it is used in is tested by running it at full power and testing the crimp for power heating. If the crimp gets hot, it's no good.One of the problems with solder is that the solder forms a solid encasement and if the wire flexes even a little, the solder causes the wire to start to fray near the place where the wire enters the connector terminal. As it frays the wire becomes thinner and thinner due to the loss of each strand of wire being broken at the interface between the solder and the copper wire strands.Just to note though, I've soldered very heavy wires #4 with success in the past.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 10:48:51 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 11, 2023, 11:43:49 pmThat tool constrains the crimp terminal into a tight space, and pushes it all together. It also curls the terminal properly, so the two halves roll over smoothly, to form two neat arches which will fill the space easily. That's a completely different action from the squashing tool, which does nothing to create a gas excluded space.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 10:57:55 am
content: Quote from: MrAl on August 12, 2023, 10:47:05 amSample testing, or testing each and every pcs off the line?I don't think current/thermal testing every pcs off the line is all that common, but i could be wrong?Maybe for expensive high current cables that would be cost effective.I guess it could be automated.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 01:50:14 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 12, 2023, 10:48:51 amHow does one propose to form two neat arches in a seam welded tube surrounded by plastic? Pre-insulated crimps are not the same as open barrel.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2023, 05:37:53 am
content: Quote from: Psi on August 12, 2023, 04:01:36 amWhat makes you think soldering is a flawless process, and that the flaws are always visible? You are, once again, assuming the worst for crimps, and assuming perfection from soldering. Neither is a reasonable expectation.In the end crimping is an exceedingly common process performed millions of times a day. Every car is full of hundreds of crimps. It’s at least as predictable a process as soldering, but probably more so.You may have your reservations about crimping, based on whatever objections you fantasize, but the electronics industry has been using them for nearly a century, and it’s no coincidence that they have displaced both solder and screw connections in many applications.

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2023, 06:55:42 am
content: Quote from: samcramer on August 09, 2023, 06:36:09 pmDon't get the IWISS crimper with the die set I got

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2023, 11:22:41 am
content: If soldering is so good why dont germany allow soldered connections on multicore mains cable?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2023, 12:39:09 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on August 14, 2023, 11:22:41 amContext and reference?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2023, 02:17:28 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on August 14, 2023, 11:22:41 amI assume by “multicore” you mean “stranded”.Quote from: Gyro on August 14, 2023, 12:39:09 pmVDE 0100-520 says to avoid “soldered” stranded wire for insertion into screw terminals and the like. So basically, the well-established “never put solder under pressure” rule.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2023, 02:40:38 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 14, 2023, 02:17:28 pmDoes it tell you to crimp a ferrule over the strands before clamping with the screw? That is the quality way to make those connections. Simply putting strands into a screw terminal, while very widely done, is horrible unless the current is low. You just can't predict how many strands are in good contact.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2023, 02:52:30 pm
content: Quoteyes,19 core flexQuotememorys a bit rusty as its going back a good few years,but it came from somebody who had previously had a problem in germany ,backed up with a copy of the relevant regulations ,i seem top recall the same rules applied in sweden.What i do remember is having to remake up all the soca looms

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2023, 04:01:34 pm
content: Ha yes, context is everything.No you wouldn't put a pre-tinned multistranded wire under a screw clamp in a mains plug, the solder cold flows and releases the clamping pressure over time. In the days before compulsory pre-fitted mains plugs, some manufacturers would pre-tin the stripped appliance wires to prevent splaying. That was outlawed and either part stripped (where the insulation is split but not pulled off the end) or ferules were fitted. That's years ago though, I think it may even have caused some overheating incidents or worse in the UK.You wouldn't crimp a pre-tinned multi-strand wire either, for the same reason. The same solder cold flow would reduce the clamping pressure over time, causing a defective crimp. Pressure clamping of tinned multistrand wire is outlawed pretty much everywhere, not just Germany, it's probably in an ENxxxx somewhere or at least a code of practice [edit: / wiring reg].That's not to say that soldered connection of mains multistrand is banned though - I'm thinking of the number of little SMPS adapters with captive mains leads soldered into the PCB for instance - in Germany like everywhere else, availability and use of non-crimp IEC connectors, fuse holders etc.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2023, 04:17:44 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on August 10, 2023, 11:28:30 pmFor small connectors of this size, unless you have a musculature deficiency surely you can squeeze enough that the jaws fully close? Doesn't matter how much pressure you apply so long as they close fully, and if they do that then what's the problem?

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2023, 05:39:50 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on August 14, 2023, 04:17:44 pmI agree. I have ratcheting crimpers with replaceable dies that I use for regular sized crimp connectors in high voltage/current applications. However for LV PCB stuff using Dupont or JST pins I tend to reach for myEngineer PA-09'swhich have yet to let me down.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2023, 08:34:34 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on August 11, 2023, 10:49:13 pmYou didn't read what I quoted from copper: "I've never seen a crimp tool without a ratchet where you can't clearly see from metal touching metal that the thing has fully closed."Shitty tools exist, even from the best manufacturers.And the OP was not using that one..

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2023, 08:49:39 pm
content: Quote from: Veteran68 on August 14, 2023, 05:39:50 pmGot the same.Another thing I like about the non-ratchet is that it's easier to position the crimp and wires. With the ratchet you either start at full open and the crimp moves as you apply pressure, or you try to start with the crimp lightly held, but you'll have tightened it just a bit too much and the ratchet ensures the only thing to do is close, reopen and try again. Or try fingering the release lever with an unnatural finger contortion.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2023, 09:02:40 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on August 14, 2023, 04:17:44 pmI know what you are saying sounds right, but, sometimes it doesn't work for me. End up squeezing super hard to make sure it was enough, then stresses my wrist.Maybe a tool like PA09 would be fine, but again, I can spend half as much and get a ratcheting crimper that is easier and faster for me to use.Quote from: PlainName on August 14, 2023, 08:49:39 pmYeah you want to have it partially compressed, that is easy for me but maybe not as easy for you for whatever reason.If you don't want to do partial compression then you'd need to build in a fence to hold the terminal or buy the one that crimps directly off the reel ($1k new).

author: aeberbach
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2023, 09:53:47 pm
content: I just bought the Engineer PA-24 crimper, what a great improvement over the PA-20. Small crimp connectors I use fairly frequently.Soldering wire to automotive-sized spade connectors is what I have done but not what I will always do. I just never think of spending any money on a tool for them because I need to do about two every six months. Also every tool I have had has been garbage, and they are never in an auto (vibrations) environment anyway.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2023, 11:33:57 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on August 12, 2023, 04:01:36 amThis is why you perform a test crimp when you get the tool, visibly inspect the crimp and check pull-out force. Once done you are good to go. This was standard practice every morning when I worked for a company making track side railway equipment and the team made many hundreds of crimp terminations every day for safety critical equipment in a high vibration environment. It's almost like crimp terminations are more reliable than soldered ones when a modicum of care is taken.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2023, 09:08:33 am
content: QuoteNow you come to mention it...I tend to do this with ratchet or other tool, so it's just a way of handling small connectors (might need some photos, but I am rushed at the moment). Typically you get the connectors still on the bandolier but cut into short strips. I cut the bandolier so it forms a T with the connector, then place the stripped wire in position on it. It's then easy to hold the assembly together with a thumb and finger, and then place the lot into the crimp tool holding it all in position while it's crimped. Afterwards, a couple of waggles of the bandolier strip and it drops off.Hmmm. Maybe I should do a video. Call it "Tricky and fiddly crimping BUSTED"