Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2020, 10:58:11 pm
content: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?Just would be so handy from time to time..

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 12:06:55 am
content: I use a PC on my workbench, and pipe the oscilloscope data into it. There, I can use any number of cool tools to manipulate the data. Including the calculator!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 02:40:47 am
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on October 15, 2020, 10:58:11 pmMicsigs do. They're Android tablets and have all sorts of built in electronics calculators plus you can install your own Apps if you want to.

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 02:44:40 am
content: Even if they did, you would complain that the app is not resourceful enough (e.g. why can't the tek scope screen calc calculate pcb impedance track)Also, using a touch screen is terrible experience, using a angled touch screen with a light weight instrument with poor digitizer is even worst ahahha...I se no reason why scopes need a touch interface, is cool and all but, mehhh, no need at all.Finally, we all have our phones near us pretty much all the time

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 04:44:44 am
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on October 15, 2020, 10:58:11 pmBecause everyone who do anything serious in lab have HP15C or HP34C (or some other) on the board. Calculator need have real keyboard and keyboard need also work so there is not so many. Today no one make anymore this quality.Scope screen is not at all optimal for calculator app. Perhaps worst place for calculator what I can ever think.In lab there need be calculator always available, perhaps also Slide Rule is useful not only for calculus but for mind-visual estimations and interpolations.Because calculator need is common in lab what ever you do, why then need some extra toy on scope screen. In my lab scope is still only on tiny part of total time... so I need calculator and it need be so I can take it to my hand and it need have real and really good keyboard so example phone is just dropped out totally.So, there is three possibilities. HP, then HP and also HP. But, not these modern graphical 30, 40, 50 etc G series some models. Least I do not accept these. It need also note that these have quite low EMI so they can use only in rf silent room.There is many of these better (old) models but sadly Keysight do not make them anymore at all after "LadyHP" destroy old original Hewlett-Packard what name is now nearly nothing, doing only things what whoever can do, just competiting deperately in mass markets like many many others.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 07:07:39 am
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on October 15, 2020, 10:58:11 pmThis is a good question. I'd rather see a scope that gave me access to a full Linux desktop where I can install the tools of my choice. One alternative is to build your lab around a PC using PC based instruments.Now here is the old fashion approach: solar power calculators and Velcro tape. This might sound odd but it has worked on a production floor to solve a lot of math mistakes. Being solar powered they last for years and cost almost nothing. Imagine a production floor with solar powered calculators stuck all over the place.

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 07:48:38 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on October 16, 2020, 04:44:44 amIt is many years ago I have needed a calculator in my lab, instead I have a PC with a calculator app. It is not the silly versions with buttons you need to press, but with a line where you can type you expression. I have put one inhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/program-that-can-log-from-many-multimeters/

author: Fixpoint
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 08:09:36 am
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on October 15, 2020, 10:58:11 pmBecause that's not within the scope (pun intended).Sometimes, it may look useful to have one device that does it all. But normally, multilple specialist devices will do it better. This holds in particular for a calculator because good calculators are actually not that simple.Finally, that is how the dreaded bloat starts. You begin with something that looks reasonably small, simple and useful. But more feature requests will come in. And then, you end up with crap.Whenever you build something that is used by people, it is absolutely certain that someone will come to you and ask "couldn't it also do X?" while someone else will ask you "couldn't it also do Y?". You have to tell them "no, that would be another product, let's keep this one simple and efficient".It's funny: In another thread, people recently complained about bloat, and in this thread they go in exactly the opposite direction.Quote from: wizard69 on October 16, 2020, 07:07:39 amFascinating idea ... an instrument that is not hardwired for a particular purpose but that can be tasked with whatever the user wants and that runs a full general-purpose OS ... wait a minute. That's been around for decades. It's called a PC. So ... if you don't need a scope but a PC, why do you use a scope and not a digitizer card?You cannot just take an oscilloscope and install "tools of your choice" because that would spur the question how these tools would interact (1) with each other and (2) with the rest of the system. Example: what should happen when a trigger is detected while the user is using a custom tool, but a second tool is configured to come to the foreground when a trigger is detected? This question sounds simple, but it is not. The result might not be what the user wants. We know from other extendable systems how difficult it is to design a system where all parts (which are not known at design time because they don't exist yet) interact nicely even without having been designed for doing so.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 08:48:20 am
content: Quote from: Fixpoint on October 16, 2020, 08:09:36 amStrange, we do this all the timeNot all scopes are based on a low-cost embedded platform with limited storage and memory.

author: Le_Bassiste
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 09:23:54 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on October 16, 2020, 04:44:44 amaaah, some profound wisdom on this forum!

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 10:34:50 am
content: Another future going nowhere thread ....

author: Fixpoint
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 12:18:37 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 16, 2020, 08:48:20 amAre you talking about a scope that is actually just a PC running Linux or some embedded Windows packaged in the scope form factor? Or are you talking about a scope in the actual sense of the word (so, not a general-purpose PC dressed up as a scope) that allows this kind of customization?In the first case, yes, that's not a surprise. But I would be a bit surprised in the latter case.

author: luma
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 02:14:06 pm
content: A real hacker would feed in the input values as voltages and then use the math functions of their scope to display the answer

author: Joel_l
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 02:43:07 pm
content: I "think" my old Tek 11320A had a basic on screen calculator. The fact I only vaguely recall means I never used it.I have an HP15C I bought when they first came out on my bench. I think it's on its second set of batteries......

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 03:40:25 pm
content: Quote from: Joel_l on October 16, 2020, 02:43:07 pmI prefer the 11C. KISS.I have one of the original ones with the data entry bug.I do like the horizontal format of the Voyagers but the HP20S is really the one to go for, IMHO. They really got all the buttons in the right place on that one and it's a computing beast (12 digits and exponents to 10^500).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 04:12:57 pm
content: Quote from: wizard69 on October 16, 2020, 07:07:39 amA 'scope with built-in X11 server and command line C++ compiler would be awesome.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2020, 04:01:30 am
content: Yes to "old" HP calculators. My HP48gx lives on the electronics bench...

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2020, 05:54:38 am
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on October 15, 2020, 10:58:11 pmFun idea, don't worry about the haters! I'll pass it along to R&D as an FYI. It sounds like something that could get implemented at an internal hackathon or as a pet project for someone in their "down" time. I personally have a graphing calculator on my desk at all times (and a phone), but that doesn't mean I wouldn't use an internal one if it existed.

author: george.b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2020, 06:03:34 am
content: Might be an unpopular opinion, but I think touchscreens are vile. I wouldn't use an oscilloscope calculator thing, that's what I have my HP48 for. Mmmm, buttons.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2020, 03:21:40 pm
content: Quote from: george.b on October 17, 2020, 06:03:34 amTouchscreens are OK for some applications, but sometimes they are used just to save money by not providing proper tactile buttons as well. The car industry has more or less come full circle on this and are back to tactile buttons again. Hopefully there will be at least one smart scope manufacturer that doesn't cheap out completely!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2020, 03:52:39 pm
content: Quote from: george.b on October 17, 2020, 06:03:34 amh8r.Quote from: SilverSolder on October 17, 2020, 03:21:40 pmMicsigs have both. And a calculator app.Andelectronics calculations.And a web browser... and a complete office suite. But let's not hold that against them.

author: wd5jfr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2020, 04:19:14 pm
content: If you keep your iPhone handy all you need to do is say "Hey Siri, what is the two times the square root of pi? and she will answer verbally plus display the answer to about 30 decimal points.Better yet if you get hurt or have a fire you can have her call 911.The iPhone is always listening.A local old guy went for a walk, fell down while trying to cross a ditch and could barely move and his iPhone fell out of reach but he remembered that Siri would still work and had her call 911 and he was rescued.Hank

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2020, 05:07:44 pm
content: Quote from: wd5jfr on October 17, 2020, 04:19:14 pmHe obviously doesn't own enough Apple products. If he'd been wearing the watch it would have called 911 all by itself.

author: wd5jfr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2020, 11:27:49 pm
content: He obviously doesn't own enough Apple products. If he'd been wearing the watch it would have called 911 all by itself.I'll be 80 in Dec and been thinking of getting an Apple watch except that I'll have to violate one of my retirement tenets of not having to wear a watch anymore.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 01:43:28 am
content: Quote from: wd5jfr on October 17, 2020, 11:27:49 pmMaybe you can rig something up with an Arduino and some mercury tilt switches.

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 09:42:37 am
content: Ok, lots of different views upon this..Star answers, pointing in all directions! But that's good, different views, different points of where the future goes regarding new ideas and where the development will take direction. Important to remember, if you don't like or need a function, other may. And no pressure to use something you don't like or need.But, as I see it, a modern Oscilloskop is a big bespoke calculator already. The frontend is analog conversion to digital and from there it's math calculations all the way.We will see, more and more integration of external function integrated into the scope.We got it already, signal generator, test signals with educational functions, help screens and automatic setup functions of more advanced measurements and calculations. Event tables that you can scroll tru.. integrerted spectrum analyser, voltmeter, frequency counters, totalizers.. And even voice control, Hello Scope!So to where, looking like what, is the question for the oscilloskop development.Maybe the test industry will go the same way as the remote diagnosis in the medical field.You attach a scope and start a video and remote control session with shared screen and controls with another person? The remote viewer can have more advanced measurements to look into the problem and help out further diagnoses based upon the signals you send.There are still improvements to be done.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 04:02:35 pm
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on October 18, 2020, 09:42:37 amWhat might also be cool, is the ability to flip the scope data back to a cloud service that can do more advanced calculations on the data and format it into customized reports etc. This way, the scope doesn't need to contain anything more than the basic features, and the cloud service part of the product could be as advanced as you want... including live interaction as you say!This would be ideal, as the "conservative" use cases are not impacted, and the sky's the limit on new and crazy ideas in the cloud service.(Note: I started writing this ironically, then realized that sooner or later, a scope manufacturer is going to do exactly this!)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 05:30:57 pm
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on October 18, 2020, 09:42:37 amYou should do your homework before wasting everybody's time. All those things already exist. It's just you don't know it... Including remote control.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 06:07:36 pm
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on October 18, 2020, 09:42:37 amYou mean like the Micsig does...?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 06:13:25 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 18, 2020, 06:07:36 pmLike Micsig, Keysight, Siglent, and any of the gazillion of windows scopes that can run any sharing platform you like...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 07:12:59 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 18, 2020, 06:13:25 pmNone of those have calculator or spreadsheet apps.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 07:18:02 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 18, 2020, 07:12:59 pmWindows based scopes can have Matlab and Mathematica...And calculator on a scope is a joke to add.. Fact that none have them is testament how over last 20 years nobody cared to ask for it..

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 07:42:33 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 18, 2020, 09:42:37 amJust because not "all" on this forum have your knowledge upon this thing, dosent mean that the questions can be asked!One ask because one don't know and need information or are willing to learn. If you don't like the question, opinions or views correspond to your opinion or knowledge, look away and find a topic that you can like.Your attitude, to be honest stinks in so many ways and your view upon someone that dosent has the has knowledg that you got is not ok!You don't encourage people to ask or get information needed by showing such attitude. This forum is as far as I know for all, both beginners and professionals and everybody between.It's clear that you waste your own time by posting several times in a topic you don't find worth your time, so why do you do such a stupid thing if you say it's a waste of time? Just to show of that you in your own opinion is "smarter"?What you should do as "homework" is learning some human skills.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 07:56:35 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 18, 2020, 07:18:02 pmHow long have they had touch screens? Seems quite recent to me, and you wouldn't want a calculator without one.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 08:01:03 pm
content: In general, touch screens tend to get smeared with peanut butter and chocolate when I use them, so I prefer buttons & knobs to keep the screen readable!

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 08:21:58 pm
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on October 18, 2020, 07:42:33 pmThank you for explaining your point of view. Let's recap: you asked about calculators. On that, dozens of people went to lengths to answer that. Than you went and had lengthy and pompous philosophical lamentation about how disappointed you are with current state of art in scopes and then asked where it all goes...I merely pointed out that you are not qualified to think about what is future of oscilloscope before you actually know what is current state of the art. And future of T&M equipment is not that clear. It is, as any economic activity, not defined with what us geeks would like, or what would be technically good or mathematically correct, but by potential to make money in T/M sales. So sometimes it is real capability, and sometimes stupid gimmicks, that some idiot in marketing thought would be cool...Lots of stuff you mentioned have been on the market for more than 10 years... In high end scopes.New trend nowadays is that some of those capabilities are trickling down to low end scopes....And to finish this explanation, you need to learn more, on your own... By reading white papers, datasheets, browse catalogs... We cannot do that for you.. So you are qualified to ask questions that are relevant to topic you yourself opened..... While everybody has right to knowledge, and I really like people that want learn, believe it or not, there are moments when you're not qualified to ask the question. Because you cannot skip knowledge, and you will not understand the answer without learning basics first... So simply waste of time.And it is written Aspergers....Regards,

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 08:36:25 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 18, 2020, 08:21:58 pmStill wasting your time?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 08:48:01 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 18, 2020, 07:56:35 pmFirst thing, you may argue that any scope with arbitrary math HAS calculator...Touch screen scope? I know that LeCroy was selling touch screen scope in 2003.... so 17 years and counting..

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 08:51:12 pm
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on October 18, 2020, 08:36:25 pmHonestly, I answered because I read Aspergers in your signature, so I gave you benefit of the doubt that you're not trolling... And now you are working hard to prove me wrong...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 09:04:58 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on October 18, 2020, 08:01:03 pmFilthy buttons instead? Ew! At least a screen can be wiped down.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 09:10:21 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 16, 2020, 04:12:57 pmFrom what I understand many instrument manufactures are embedding Linux in their instruments so it wouldn't be a huge jump to give us a desktop. As for C++ I'm of the opinion that it is morphing into something that turns my stomach. But Python would certainly be a good thing and for performance maybe Julia or Swift.In any event the big advantage to a desktop on an instrument like a scope is in the small utilities like a calculator, note taking, image viewers and office apps. I don't see a scope replacing a laptop or desktop computer (in most cases) but there are certainly times when moving away from the instrument to the full blown compute systems doesn't make sense. A calculator app is a perfect example.An example here is the world of machining where demand for a calculator has caused many manufactures of CNC controls and coordinate readout systems to include the functionality. With today's technology the amount of RAM and storage to do something like this is trivial. So You have to ask why most electronics instruments, that could otherwise support more functionality, have such a sterile app system. Obviously not every instrument on the bench needs this capability but because a scope is so central to the bench or even field work you would think that manufactures would put as much capability into the units as possible.Part of the problem might be the manufactures being afraid of having to support a ""distro"" on their own. Certainly an issue but that can also be contracted with the likes of Redhat or whomever.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 09:11:45 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on October 17, 2020, 05:54:38 amYep.No too long ago people would have called you crazy for wanting an alarm clock and bluetooth speaker in a multimeter, yet here we are:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000343031770.htmlFWIW: Everybody who's bought one says they're awesome.

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 09:22:26 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 18, 2020, 08:51:12 pmAgain, learn yourself some human skills!And, I got 3 engineering degrees.And, I don't know why you bring this up, but it is like this, You have aspergers, but you are a asperger.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 09:22:53 pm
content: Quote from: wizard69 on October 18, 2020, 09:10:21 pmA lot of the new features are really useful when your code starts getting bigger (eg. lambdas). Having things like built in threading/mutexes and decent time functions is good too.They don't break anything though, you can still write C in C++ if you want to.

author: wd5jfr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 09:40:04 pm
content: If it would speak the reading I was taking it would be worthwhile to have for me so I wouldn't have to take my eyes off the circuit connections. Many years ago I saw an ?HP DVM that had a headpiece to show the numbers on a visor so you didn't have to take you eyes off the circuit but I couldn't afford it. I've never seen one since and wouldn't mind finding one. Too many times the probe has slipped and sparks fly or worse you let the smoke out of a component and get an increase in entropy..Hank

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2020, 10:30:06 pm
content: Quote from: wd5jfr on October 18, 2020, 09:40:04 pmSpeaking to the instrument is great, got a Infiniivision MSO6004A, bought just for fun and it's voice command is really great. Don't have to lift the probe away while adjusting the scope!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2020, 01:07:20 am
content: Quote from: wd5jfr on October 18, 2020, 09:40:04 pmI've been thinking of building something like that - just a LED display that you can poke numbers into wirelessly would be perfect...Something like Google Glass, that could overlay a circuit board with all the test points and measured vs. expected signals, as you probe it... how cool would that be?

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2020, 07:51:53 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on October 19, 2020, 01:07:20 am1993: Virtual Light, by William Gibson, a novel.2013: Google Glass, by Google, an appliance2016: Hololens, by Microsoft, another applianceBut, first and foremost, 1988: We have the technology, by Pere Ubu, a song.Quote

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2020, 04:50:12 pm
content: Quote from: newbrain on October 19, 2020, 07:51:53 amYou sound like a possible Philip K. Dick fan....

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 11:46:00 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on October 19, 2020, 04:50:12 pmI became one a few weeks ago after I read Ubik.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 04:37:41 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 20, 2020, 11:46:00 amYes, that's one of my favourites - he has written so much good stuff that it's hard to pick an overall best. I discovered PKD when I was about 12, which has probably destroyed my mind permanently - no idea how I processed his writing at that age, but something clicked!

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 08:14:51 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 20, 2020, 11:46:00 amBetter late than never!Welcome to the club.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2020, 05:06:58 am
content: Quote from: newbrain on October 20, 2020, 08:14:51 pmI was staying at a monastery for a weekend and I'd whimsically bought a copy of Ubik from a bargain bin a couple of days before. I read the whole thing while I was there (there's no test gear to play with in a monastery).When I was younger I'd read a book to the very endno matter what. That doesn't happen these days, I'm quite happy to say "meh" and not finish one. I couldn't put Ubik down. It was completely unexpected from start to finish, like, "Where could this possibly go from here...?"

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2020, 06:17:49 am
content: Going back to the original question...The math channel on my new Micsig lets me type in arbitrary expressions, eg. "2+3" or "sqrt(2)".You can the show the result using the on-screen measurements:Calculator!