Repairing Holzworth Instrumentation Equipment - Claim of IP Rights Violation - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 12:16:33 am
content: I post this here because it's about test equipment, and though I haven't come across this warning on equipment from other manufacturers, if it's somehow actually valid, it could apply broadly.Holzworth Instrumentation is a US based company that builds low phase noise RF synthesizers and other related equipment. Printed on the outside of what seems like most of their equipment is the warning "Tampering with or opening this device is an admitted and direct violation of the intellectual property rights of Holzworth Instrumentation Inc.", and I was wondering if there is any actual basis in legality for this, at all. Best I can tell, it's a scare tactic to try and keep people out of their equipment, but I'm wondering if there is some IP registration right that could potentially actually extend to protecting an entire piece of equipment or if there is some classification a company can pursue to prevent their equipment from being legally serviceable (like getting some certification that it's military hardware or the like).In some of their product manuals a similar statement is made, but only in the warranty section, which presumably means your warranty is void if you open it up and work on it, but with a two year default warranty, that's going to be beyond everything on the used market. I wouldn't expect that to extend beyond the warranty period in that case, but then how would that warrant the warning printed on the chassis?Are there other companies that have similar warnings on their equipment? Does such a warning have any basis in legality (in the US or elsewhere)? Is it even legal for them to put that statement on their product if it isn't accurate/enforceable?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 12:35:19 am
content: Good on Holzworth for spelling out how the operate in black and white !https://www.holzworth.com/Portals/0/Holzworth_Terms_Conditions_1.pdfDon't have a problem with it at all.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 12:51:13 am
content: If I had access to the equipment, a warning like that is a sure way to make me find a way to get in and have a look around. There's no way that's enforceable.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 12:58:11 am
content: The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act prohibits misleading warranty language on "consumer products", which requires a court finding to prove for a particular case. It's unlikely that a RF synthetizer would be ruled to be a consumer product.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 02:19:21 am
content: Yeah, I think most right to repair legislation also applies specifically to consumer products, which makes me wonder if there is actually some basis in reality for the note on the equipment, but I haven't been able to find it yet.They do put all the screws under metallic stickers and use special nuts to hold the SMA connectors onto panels, so they are certainly made to try and keep people out.I hadn't seen the document tautech linked, but I don't think this really clarifies it. It seems to be that for warranty repair they are the only ones to do it and for out of warranty repair they reserve the right to turn away any equipment that appears tampered with or modified... which sounds like most repair clauses. What concerns me is the, seemingly arbitrary, claim on the unit itself that even opening it will violate intellectual property law of some description.This is the note I'm referring to, by the way:

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 02:37:46 am
content: It seems pretty vague. Even if there were a legally cognizable right that they think they can assert against someone for merely disassembling the product, I don't see that the sign gives clear notice any specific right. "Intellectual property rights" is a big basket and people commonly try to assert rights that they don't have.If they had a good case to assert a specific right, they would say what it was. I don't see a US Patent marking...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 02:58:37 am
content: Bullcrap. Their claim will be thrown out at court unless they can prove that some aspect of their device was copied. And even then, it will have no merits unless their firmware or some patented feature was cloned (and patent did not expire yet).

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 03:24:46 am
content: Perhaps their greatest shortcoming is making an analog productWe can laugh about it, but such draconian "don't look inside the box" notices have become the norm for digital designs. Ask Andrej Sklyarov...

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 03:31:42 am
content: Quote from: wraper on March 17, 2021, 02:58:37 amA bit blunt - but this is the direction my thoughts travelled.While IANAL, as I understand it, intellectual property laws are designed toprevent people from gaining benefit to the detriment of the holder of the IP. Pull something apart, reverse engineer it, repair it, pillage and plunder it and IP is not breached. Try and sell (or even give away) an item based on something IP protected and then the games begin.IF, however, such a condition was part of a contract of sale, then it's not an IP issue - but a contractual issue.

author: ResistorRob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 03:33:49 am
content: In 2019 Holzworth Instrumentation had about 6 million dollars in sales and sold their company for 9.5 million in November of the same year. With a sticker on their equipment like that I half expected a company selling 12 units per year on TindieWhat a pompous company. I did spent a fair amount of time studying business law and if they tried to sue someone for simply opening the case I would assume they would get laughed out of court especially if it was purchased second hand because then nobody agreed to their insane terms and conditions.I think it's hilarious when companies put foil over the screw holes. Yeah that will definitely stop your competitor from opening it up and reverse engineering it!It would be funny if they did that because they are so embarrassed by what's inside!Quote from: tautech on March 17, 2021, 12:35:19 amTautech, you are usually one of my favorite people on the forum, but you really disappointed me with this!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 03:40:15 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 17, 2021, 12:35:19 amPretty straightforward - but do NOT cover this statement inanyway...Quote from: DaJMasta on March 17, 2021, 12:16:33 amTo my mind, it is completely unenforceable.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 04:41:34 am
content: Quote from: ResistorRob on March 17, 2021, 03:33:49 amThat would not surprise me in the least.It looks like an aluminum housing in which case it should be fairly easy to xray it, I don't see anything in that text that stops someone from doing that.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 04:41:54 am
content: Quote from: ResistorRob on March 17, 2021, 03:33:49 amI look at like this:Their product along with their IP it contains is designed and guaranteed to meet their datasheet specs and should you open it or tamper with it Holzworth can walk away from any liability that it doesn't.They are protecting their best interests and making clear to any buyers their conditions of sale for their guarantee of performance.You may see it differently however that's my take on this.Really, who gives a shit what's in the box as long as it meets spec and does its job.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 04:55:38 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 17, 2021, 04:41:54 amIf local law permits that limitation on their warranty and merchantability obligations.QuoteSomeone who wants to 1) repair it 2) adjust it 3) modify it 4) see how it works 5) verify compliance with some regulation 6) review it 7) take pictures of it 8 ) remove parts from it for some other purpose, etc etc.That sign doesn't say "Warranty void if..."

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 05:57:06 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on March 17, 2021, 04:55:38 amThat's really the only problem I have with it. I fully expect that if it's repaired or tinkered with in a way that is obviously "tampered with" that they won't recertify it or work on it in the in house shop, that seems like a reasonable policy that probably quite a few test equipment vendors have the same one. I can definitely understand not wanting people to open their units and copy them, but regular patents and litigation would cover that without such a message, and I'm certain the deterrent measures to make access to the internals work to some degree... so why the showy, and likely false, message plastered on the side?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 06:07:12 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 17, 2021, 04:41:54 amI do not disagree with you at all - but that's NOT the issue raised by the OP.They are very clearly focussed on the statement:Quote from: DaJMasta on March 17, 2021, 12:16:33 amThe part I find more than amusing is they equate the act ofopeningthe device as anadmissionof violating IP. That is ridiculous.It is as sensible as a cop standing at your gate and telling you if you drive out onto the street, that you are admitting to speeding. Just stoooopit.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 06:32:54 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on March 17, 2021, 06:07:12 amWhat is their IP ?Is it not their datasheet and the guarantee their instrument meets whatever spec ?Why should they stand behind their product if someone wants to fuck with it ?We're not talking about some poxy toaster or consumer product but a precision piece of RF gear !Would you really expect to be able to open, dismantle and reassemble a spectrum analyser and it then to perform to manufacturers spec. That would be ridiculous.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 08:20:44 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 17, 2021, 06:32:54 amThis is not what Intellectual property is. It has nothing to do with spec compliance and data sheets.Intellectual property are rights someone holds to the the design (or parts of it) of an item (i.e. in the form of patents), as well as the copyright for things like software code.If you come up with a novel method of amplifying RF signals and successfully patent it then that method becomes your IP (the patent protects it). If you write firmware for a device then that firmware becomes your IP through copyright.As to the statement about violating Holzworth's IP by opening one of their devices, that's complete bullcrap. Even if the inside was full of technology that belongs to Holzworth, looking at it or interacting with it isn't a violation of Holzworth's IP. Making copies or using the protected technology in your own designs would be.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 08:36:16 am
content: What a bunch of dicks. At this point I would just open it and post anonymous teardown photos online just as a small fck you to them.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 08:41:19 am
content: Quote from: DaJMasta on March 17, 2021, 12:16:33 amThere has to be a crapload of bodges and wires in that device!

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 09:03:03 am
content: As Wuerstchenhund said looking inside a box does not count as IP infringement.It's perfectly reasonable for warranty to be void if you mess with the insides, also perfectly reasonable for them to decline an outside of warranty repair if you messed with the insides, since then they can't 100% garantee that the unit stays within all of its datasheet specs after repair.But there is no law out there that would prevent you from tampering with something you own, you just might be wavering away some of your consumer rights by doing so. For example there are laws for what a car on the road must have, as such you are not allowed to drive a car without brake lights on the road. But that does not mean that you will get slapped with a hefty fine or dragged off to court if you remove the brake lights off your car in your garage. You own the car you can do to it whatever you want. Having no brake lights just means you can't drive on public roads, you will get pulled over and fined because the law says so. But you can drive that car around your own yard all day and they can't fine you. You can take the car to a private race track and drive it around there all day with no brake lights.Its the same with electronics equipment. You can take it apart, destroy it, modify it, do whatever. But if you try to profit from the IP you reverse engineered out of it, dump the firmware and sell it, start selling option unlock hacks..etc then be prepared for some legal trouble.But then again there is also probably nothing illegal about putting this false boogyman text on your product, while it probably does scare off some people from opening it up.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 09:08:04 am
content: This sounds like the sort of thing that Leonard French @ Lawful Masses over on YouTube might be interested in and do a video on.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 09:29:52 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 17, 2021, 08:41:19 amIt is the "secret sauce" of the manufacturer...My BS detector tests for different gaps on a proposition, and this one falls flat on the "why haven't this be done before?" test.If the simple act of opening the equipment was enforceable as an intellectual property violation, it would simply have been done decades ago already. Imagine the possibilities! Sue the ass of everyone that took a peek inside a product theyphysically own.Also, if they have patents associated with the product itself, the contents would be public anyways. Otherwise, what prevents anyone from creating an identical device if this is not registered anywhere?I think the only enforceable thing here is the manufacturer refusing to provide service and voiding the warranty.

author: ResistorRob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 05:25:03 pm
content: Quote from: tautechOk, this makes more sense now. The disconnect is you don't know what Intellectual Property (IP) means. You basically think this is a warranty issue. They aren't saying if you open this up we will void your warranty. That is the standard with all devices both consumer and professional. You won't find many people who have a problem with this, even the right-to-repair crowd. IP can mean many things but in this case they are referring to the their design of how this thing functions. What they are basically saying is if you pop this open it is the equivalent of you copying their design and selling an exact clone of it. So even though you might just want to repair, clean, or make a simple modification they are saying they have the right to haul you into court and sue you for a large sum of money. It's completely absurd.I hope you now understand this isn't about guaranteeing performance or voiding a warranty. This is them threatening legal action if you dare crack the seal. We aren't talking about opening a 4 million dollar spy satellite we are talking about a $2k piece of test gear, which makes it even more crazy. What don't they want us to see... that they took a RF Heathkit RF signal generator and modified it LMFAO!

author: joeB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 07:14:11 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 17, 2021, 08:20:44 amTrade secrets could also be considered IP. In this case the IP holder would need to take reasonable steps to keep the information secret. Putting such a notice on the outside may help to satisfy that requirement and protect their IP.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 08:39:08 pm
content: Quote from: joeB on March 17, 2021, 07:14:11 pmNo, it won't. Trade secrets laws only create a cause of action if the information was acquired through improper means. Reverse engineering is explicitly defined as a proper means: improper means are spying, bribery, etc.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2021, 01:38:26 am
content: Quote from: joeB on March 17, 2021, 07:14:11 pmIt is not a trade secret. Writing some nonsense on the label does not make internals a trade secret.