Discussion of possible constitution for new TEA threads - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 12:20:31 pm
content: Might be premature, but just to open a discussion on what should be included if the move is made from the Test Equipment section to here.A benefit I see from a move to this separate section is that there can also be multiple threads to discuss problems in the main thread and with that keep the main thread free of to much disturbance. This also is less intrusive on the forum in its whole.As an example the mentioning of the latest talk about "OrCAD" being off topic, could then be handled with a "take it outside" pup analogy.What I mean with this is, that when a contributor, visitor or moderator of the main thread feels something should go in a separate thread or that something is so far off topic or in violation with the general rules that they create a separate thread to discuss this, and put a single post in the main thread to invite the parties concerned to join in this new thread. The bouncers way of take it outside please.A moderator can do the same when alerted by someone that there is a problem. Only as a last resort the moderator can start removing posts that do not belong. They do have final say. This is important to allow it to work.The same also applies to the separate discussion threads of course, because they too should not get out of hand.First and foremost it should be the members of the "community" that uphold the rules and keep themselves in check. So don't get angry when someone expresses to be upset by a posting or where the main thread is wondering of to.It all of course stand and falls with the users will and ability to abide to this "constitution" and not resort to taunting the authorities.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 05:46:59 pm
content: Lurker rights revoked.No need to be nice but don't be not nice either, and don't get mad if contributors are expressing that your issue in hand must have its own thread.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 06:52:54 pm
content: Just be polite and keep it within reasonable bounds. No need for name calling, and when one feels the need, just take a timeout and think before making another post. Saves on a lot of aggravation. Be the bigger person

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 08:41:48 pm
content: If any "constitution" becomes part of EEVBlog Forum, then the forum will have changed character for the worse.If you introduce rules that will adjudicated, then you need both a police force and a judiciary, plus a means for voting on which rules to adopt and which to drop. Plus an adjudication mechanism. Plus all the other safeguards that go with a democratic civil society.If you don't have those mechanisms, then it is a dictatorship. Currently it is demonstrably a benevolent dictatorship, because the owner/dictator doesn't want to be in control, and only exercise control reluctantly.Someone that wants any such powers has demonstrated that they should not be entrusted with them.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 01:13:28 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on September 01, 2022, 06:52:54 pmOr even better still, instead of reporting the OT chat, step up and post a request for it to cease or take it somewhere else, in the past that has worked well.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 04:33:08 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 01, 2022, 08:41:48 pmThe forum has worked just fine for 12 years now, no need to change it.The existing rules cover it - no personal attacks, and community moderation by leading by example.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 04:58:58 am
content: Quote from: Specmaster on September 02, 2022, 01:13:28 amRead the first post. It is the "take it outside" option I mentioned.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 05:33:10 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 01, 2022, 08:41:48 pmI could write "Oh get off your high horse", but then you would just come back at me that I should do the same.The term constitution was mentioned in the other discussion thread and is maybe not suited. I like the idea though of having an additional set of rules to specify what is good behavior in case something becomes a problem.And no I'm not advocating for a job to obtain power over others. I'm hoping that members here will obtain some more power over themselves, and refrain from snarky comments, and name calling.Quote from: EEVblog on September 02, 2022, 04:33:08 amYes the rules do state that, but current events show that things can get out of hand. And maybe having more clear and precise rules can help in preventing it from happening. But then still it stands and falls with the willingness of the members to play by those rules.Take from it what you will.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 07:17:09 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 02, 2022, 04:33:08 amPrecisely!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 07:18:26 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on September 02, 2022, 04:58:58 amI missed that.One schism has already happened; I didn't conceive a second schism was being considered!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 07:25:26 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on September 02, 2022, 05:33:10 amCorrectQuoteI'm not presuming anybody is fishing for a job at the moment.However, my outlinedoesindicate what usually happens, sooner or later.QuoteEventually you end up with barrack room lawyers arguing what is meant by the rules, which leads to....To the extent allowed by the benevolent dictatorship here, that has happened here, e.g. is/isn't something OT. Fortunately it will not progress here.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 09:02:35 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on September 01, 2022, 06:52:54 pmIts just a real shame that those that folk who were so annoyed by the content of postings didn't put that into practise before managing to rip the heart out of the thriving community, which even with the so-called annoying OT posts, still managed to grow into the most active thread on the forum. So it clearly was the jewel in the crown. Sadly though, the minority have ruined it for the majority and will no doubt be looking for their next victim before long.Why is that it seems to be the growing trend these days to destroy the good things in life, I'm afraid to say it but take a look around the World and there are many examples where that is played out for real with real dire consequences for the normal people.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 10:03:49 am
content: Yes, it is a real shame that some feel the need to destroy what others have. Best to guard ourselves from it by being the bigger persons. I know it is hard at times, but it sometimes helps things to calm down.And just don't ass about it if some like to see something moved to a separate thread. For the discussion at hand, for me at least, it makes no difference in which thread it sits. People with interest can participate, and when someone really wants to disrupt things there is always the help of moderators, of which I like to think they can work both ways. Protect the group from ones out to make trouble, but also stand up for the ones who do not feel up to complaining themselves.But society is made up of lots of different people and unfortunately human nature often gets in the way of peace.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 10:09:39 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 02, 2022, 04:33:08 amCommunity moderation is proved to be problematic.Same with silent reporting.Silent reporting can't change, that's a given.So reactions are the only possibility.Can a forum section be taken out of updating recent messages?If a thread is flooding, say with off topics, and the flood is taken out to somewhere else, it's still flooding.The biggest on topic and before any moves flood here is assumed to be a small one.I'm trying to figure out why non participants have a need to report.Malice action is one thing and I don't like something in it another but what else.Only thing I can think of is that the thread is disturbing their use of the forum somehow.Have levels of moderation actions been in question somewhere?I'd say that deleting a lengthy post is on the top.It's like I have the power and your effort means nothing.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 10:56:34 am
content: Quote from: m k on September 02, 2022, 10:09:39 amIf it is non participants in the main doing the reporting, then the first thing I'd do if I had the power of a moderator is to check out their previous history, that way maybe a pattern might emerge and shows that wherever trouble has been in the past, they were involved in it in some form and their motives for reporting then become questionable.There are people around who are, putting it bluntly, just killjoys

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 11:21:57 am
content: I was just thinking about what you pointed out. Is it easy for moderators to see if someone has posted in a thread and also the frequency of posting in it over time.Because, if it is someone that is heavily involved in a thread, I think a moderator should put more effort in resolving an issue. If it is just someone watching a thread, who took offense of something in that thread, I would say, just ignore the complaint and tell the complainer to put the thread in its ignore list. Only if it is in heavy violation of the general rules resort to removal.And I believe the moderators do handle complaints more or less this way,I myself have been advised to pass complaints down to moderators instead of personally engage because of possible fallout.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/forum-rules-changed-how-to-deal-with-it/msg4371379/#msg4371379Still believe, in the given situation of the TEA thread, that addressing the issue with a post is the better way, when you are involved in the thread. And when not involved then just let it go.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2022, 09:22:55 am
content: Quote from: m k on September 02, 2022, 10:09:39 amYes, and I have mentioned this several times.If you don't like and entire board there is an Ignore Board feature.If you don't like a particual thread there is an Ignore Topic featureif you don't like a particular user there is an Ignore user feature.Go to your profile and look on the left side bar:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2022, 09:26:28 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on September 02, 2022, 11:21:57 amWe can see post history, but it's chonological, so not easy see if someone posted in a thread.We get stats on which boards they have posted in the most and spend their time in the most, but not threads. So we just see the Test Equipment board for eample.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2022, 10:10:51 am
content: That makes it a bit more difficult to asses a claim, but I still rather have someone impartial and not involved to investigate a complaint then someone who is a regular contributor and might have partial thoughts about the matter.But by the looks of it this is all moot now things have moved on

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2022, 10:28:18 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 03, 2022, 09:22:55 amYes, you have.(click Profile and then Modify Profile is above the Summary)I wasn't clear enough.Can it be done at the forum level?I think I've not seen any Supporters Lounge activity anywhere.Maybe new member could have a predefined set of excluded parts where for example TEA is ticked out.No idea how that change notifications but then at least general irritation should be minimal.This since part of the community is obviously not moderating its self and it is not going to change, it may even worsen in the future.Report button is also always close and other stuff sort of far away.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2022, 10:41:24 am
content: Quote from: m k on September 03, 2022, 10:28:18 amBoards can be excluded from membership levels, but not threads AFAIK. That's how the Supporters section works.I think reporting can also be limited to membership levels, but it's newbies that have been doing the reporting. Even some of the people who have left are amoung the ones who have reported things.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2022, 02:20:25 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on September 03, 2022, 10:10:51 amMoot is it not.Better be ready before the next time.Not involved is what happened here.Regular can still be objective, if that was a concern.Moderation and cleaning are two different things.Nobody has any issues with cleaning, specially if somebody else is doing it.Not cleaning may rice some eyebrows every now and then but problem it wont be before trash and treasure becomes a part of it.I wasn't in the center of the storm but my guess is that the beginning of it was not the end of the world, it was something else.That something else must be avoided in the future.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2022, 02:22:52 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 03, 2022, 10:41:24 amSo easiest would be to move TEA thread to TEA section and run through the whole user base a permanent TEA section ignore script.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2022, 04:37:15 pm
content: I opted for a vote, in the "discussion of the TEA thread" thread, about moving it to this section, but no one instantiated one, and several posters in that thread expressed their sentiment to keep it where it is.The current users seem happy with how it is now, and time will tell if it is going to be a problem again or not.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2022, 05:54:14 pm
content: Well its kind of beginning to look like people are getting fed of walking on eggshells all the time for fear of upsetting the natives here and people are remaining largely in their own camps and that is a real pity that there is not any more attempts at bridge building going to try to bury the hatchet and entice the founder members back.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 05, 2022, 11:58:52 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on September 05, 2022, 05:54:14 pmSeriously, what more do you expect me (or others) to do?I've offered every option I can think of, and have even created a section when one of them asked.If they don't want to come back, they don't want to come back. It's done.As always on this forum, if you want those people to come back then you are going to have to do the work by coming back yourself and posting in TEA here and maybe they'll see the activity here and eventually they'll tip toe back?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2022, 08:33:41 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 03, 2022, 10:41:24 amUnder 5 posts newbies ?That doesn't seem right that someone with so little engagement here can cry WOLF to moderators and potentially cause mayhem.Exactly when does a new member obtain the right to report other members actions that may have been here for years and made 100's if not 1000's of posts ?From the day they join ?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2022, 08:50:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 05, 2022, 11:58:52 pmAt the risk of misinterpreting someone else's opinions (which is too close to being a woke SJW!), I suspect (no more) that any issue might be to do with otherparticipantswelcoming people back.Personally I concur with your attitude "If they don't want to come back, they don't want to come back. It's done."

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2022, 08:54:31 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 06, 2022, 08:33:41 amReporting isn't the key issue. Acting on "troublemaking non-participant newbie's" reports is the problem.It will always be difficult for moderators to find the right balance, especially "light touch" moderators. Mistakes (with 20:20 hindsight) will be made all round; life goes on. Time to move on.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 06, 2022, 09:03:43 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 06, 2022, 08:33:41 amOops, sorry, meant to sayNOTnewbies.And as I said, I do believe some of the reporters were high standing TEA members.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2022, 09:54:35 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 06, 2022, 09:03:43 amI really can't help thinking that some of the reports may have been accidental, am I right in thinking that all it takes to flag something to a moderator is to click on the link in the bottom right of a post and the system sends a copy of the post along with details of who clicked on the link, and thats it, nothing further?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 06, 2022, 11:04:14 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 06, 2022, 08:50:20 amThe current participants get no say in who comes back and posts in the thread. Just like those who left and felt like it was their "home" or some such had no say who started to post in there.Heck, the departed participants could have even had their own appointed moderator to handle such things, but they don't want to take me up on the offer. Oh well.QuoteIt's not really an attitude, it's just an aparent fact. Like I have said countless times, everyone and anyone is welcome back any time if they so choose.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 06, 2022, 11:06:17 am
content: Quote from: Specmaster on September 06, 2022, 09:54:35 amThere is a box to fill in details. Usually we get a message of some sort along with it, sometimes a complete tome.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2022, 11:32:23 am
content: Quote from: Specmaster on September 06, 2022, 09:54:35 amAlong with the box to fill in some comments on why the report, you have to click a button again to send it in, so don't see it being accidental.And I know this because I have made reports sometimes, but not on the TEA thread.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2022, 01:26:19 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on September 01, 2022, 12:20:31 pmI really couldn't be arsed to read this whole thread, but since you mentioned my post about OrCAD I feel it's worth clarifying exactly what my position is, and why I made that specific point at that specific time.As a relative newbie (2019) to TEA, but a daily reader/contributor, I found it easy to skip past the posts I wasn't interested in. Sometimes I found the stuff I wasn't interested in quite tedious, if it went on for more than a few posts, however, I never felt the urge to complain, either to Mods/Admin, or directly in the thread, since these things in my experience go in cycles, and at some point things would get interesting for me again, regardless.I was dismayed at the (what I believed to be) heavy handed Moderation, and also at the (what I believed to be) over-reactions of some members. I was further disheartened to learn that there had been complaints to the Mod team by TEA regulars; I would rather have seen them voice their concerns publicly, and feel we could have self-moderated at that point.As regards my comments about the OrCAD posts, this was after numerous members had been censored for posting things that were not really entirely off-topic, and that if such posts were not allowed, then neither should the OrCAD ones be, on the same basis. Without the context of the recent controversial Mod actions, I would have just scrolled past them as usual.Moving forward, I see no reason why the standard "common sense" provisions shouldn't apply to the TEA thread if/when it is moved here. Since assumptions get one in trouble, I will state my opinion of what these should be: no politics, no religion, no weapons, no personal attacks.I would also welcome the creation of a dedicated Mod team, which should include at least one long term TEA regular contributor, bitseeker himself (if he came back), and one of the EEVBlog regular Mods.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2022, 02:01:47 pm
content: For as far as I can tell, there have been several attempts made to get the TEA thread back to what it used to be by some of the contributors, but the unwillingness of some drove it to the interference by the moderators.That Vince reacted irritated to my action of moving the OrCAD topic to a new thread was unfortunate, and I must say, so was your response onto that. All very understandable in light of the recent events, but as several members wrote in the different discussions about all of this, I tried to lead by example. That is also why I did not reply to your reaction in the TEA thread.Because for me it does not matter where a topic is being discussed and when it makes it easier for others to not have to skip what they don't like, it is little effort to make it happen.The thread title containing "constitution" is, in hindsight, ill chosen and "rules of conduct" is probably more appropriate. And I feel it would be good to have a guideline as such, set as a sticky to remind people of how to behave to keep the forum a happy place for all.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2022, 04:37:55 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on September 10, 2022, 02:01:47 pmI suspect it might have to be made the page header for people to remember, and maybe not even then...

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2022, 04:49:58 pm
content: Yes, that is true, because people do not bother to read such thingsBut it is good to have, to be able to point people towards it.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2022, 08:22:25 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 10, 2022, 01:26:19 pmAnders, you nailed it perfectly, although I admit to posting sometimes OT, it wasnotdifficult to skip on until you do find something of interest. I even had problems finding anything interesting at times, but I kept the peace and respected others when they posted OT, even some of the suspected complainers have if they are honest with themselves sometimes posted OT.When people felt that the OT posts were straying too much into the political or gun arena, they used to publicly post to that effect, and we would then self police, which just strengthens my feeling that the majority of complainers were not regulars, but relatively new to the thread and therefore not aware of the way we self policed following gentle prods from others. For instance, there were many occasions that there were pages of mainly RF discussions, nothing at all to do with TE, and certainly did not interest me at all, but I acted in an adult manner and moved on to the next post and so on. I was, like you, a regular visitor and would log on many times a day to see what was happening. I have friends on here and on groups.io, and I'm sad to see the amount of gloating happening here over the fact that some of the most prolific contributors are now with groups.io almost exclusively.