Metcal - GT120 Soldering System with Heater Cartridge - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Free_WiFi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2020, 04:39:14 pm
content: What do you think about this new Metcal soldering station unit - Do you have any thoughts about it?https://www.okinternational.com/hand-soldering-systems/id-GT120-HP-T6/GT120_Soldering_System_with_Heater_Cartridge

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2020, 09:08:56 pm
content: Its got the DIN connector, so it must be the lower frequency (~400kHz?) MFR tech. Which combined with the hollow end tips hint at low end use.However... they actually offer full cartridge tips for it as well:http://info.okinternational.com/hubfs/GT-Tips-and-Cartridges-Guide.pdfCombine this with them saying its temperature adjustable. It has the potential to be very good. But.. I'm really not seeing how you can match the performance of a pure inductive tip (curie) with a temperature sensor in the tip (RTD not thermocouple though).http://info.okinternational.com/hubfs/GT90%20-%20GT120/GT120-Technical-Data-Sheet-En.pdfQuoteI'd be surprised if the two-piece tip is anywhere near the performance of the single cartridge style tip, but we will see.

author: Free_WiFi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2020, 10:36:08 pm
content: I hope this unit is not going to cost more than 320 euros,because i'm very excited for this new baby

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 09:48:38 am
content: What Metal with T regulation?It could be good but it goes against why I was loving Metcal so much.

author: umbro
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 11:56:47 am
content: Quote from: Zucca on May 25, 2020, 09:48:38 am+1

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 10:49:20 pm
content: Quote from: Zucca on May 25, 2020, 09:48:38 amPut some tape over the display then, or lock the station out from changes (like Hakko).The whole point of the lack of temperature regulation is it comes with a performance gain. If you can get that performancewithadjustable temperature, there is no reason not to do it.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 06:53:09 pm
content: Quote from: Free_WiFi on May 25, 2020, 02:15:46 pmPrice:- GT90 $440- GT120 $540- Tips: <$10, Cartridge: <$40So you have to choose up front if you want a handle for 4mm/6mm/cartridges:QuoteStill nothing compared to JBC's 10+ different cartridge types. But it does add some complexity to deciding on model.I looked up RTDs and I can't find any small ones that would fit in a soldering iron tip, although I'm sure they are out there.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 02:25:44 pm
content: How those unit sense the tip temperature?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 07:53:07 pm
content: Quote from: Zucca on May 28, 2020, 02:25:44 pmIts mentioned above, RTD sensor. So perhaps a PT100 sensor that can work up to 850C. But I have not seen how that is integrated into the tip.Heres one that is 2x5mm but says max temp is only 400:https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/TEWA/TT-PT100A-2050-11-AuNi.pdf

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 11:44:07 pm
content: I wouldn't get too upset about them releasing a temperature adjustable model remembering they have had temp adjustable stations from the outset, you just needed to buy different tips if you wanted it.It seems you still need to switch the station off between changing cartridge tips. If you go for the just the old style tips you could get away with only spending a hundred or so for a selection, less convenience though.Performance in those videos I saw about 13 seconds to 350C for the tip over heater on the GT90. Looked just as slow on the GT120 model on cartridges for some reason (they cut the video short). So the GT series might be lower performing than the MX5200 series.Few things I don't like about the stations. The external power supply was not a good idea, it didn't really change the footprint and now means you have more desk clutter. It's a bit ugly, compared to the MX5200 that brown color doesn't do it for me.Power switch looks accessible but why not just put it on the front/top/side. It looks like they went with a plastic handpiece which is a bit of a backwards step in my opinion over the MX5200 with MX-H1-AV.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2020, 07:52:01 pm
content: Metcal posted some testing now:https://info.okinternational.com/hubfs/Metcal%20GT90%20-%20GT120%20White%20Paper/Inductive-vs-resistive-heating-a-comparison_by_Metcal.pdfAccording to them, GT90 with a standard tip is better than JBC CB-1BQE. FX951 of course about twice as slow.and GT120 (120W) with a cartridge is about the same performance as the JBC-HDE (250W).I don't even know why the bothered testing standard cheap tip on the GT90, although if those really are the results, that is impressive.Would have been nice to see a their older stations included (could be as noted above performance is too similar to the MX5200?).

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2020, 12:37:43 am
content: Perhaps the MX5200 system was a little too close in performance to the JBC CDB to make it advantageous showing. Metcals testing also highlighted the Hakko FX951 is not a great performer overall and the Weller WT1010 is a waste of money.I just don't think they hit the mark, they should have made a variable temp MX5200 with a nice handpiece rather than increase the footprint/clutter and over complicate the handpieces. The external smps will likely affect it's long term serviceability if it's a sealed unit.I guess if you want to torture yourself on tip swapping you can opt to run one of these GT systems in cheap mode as tip over inductive heater and save some money for (I expect) slightly less performance.They might have been trying to better the Ersa and Thermaltronics hybrid models (which are sort of similar) and didn't want to destroy their own fixed temp station sales at the same time. Anyway apparently Metcal are using a chip on cartridge technology, so will see how that works out for them.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2020, 09:16:34 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on September 25, 2020, 12:37:43 amAgree on the handle, the MX-H1-AV is basically a perfect handle. But that is a premium product, this seems to be aimed more midrange ish.Not sure how it overcomplicates things though, they had to be different designs, no way around it. Unless you strictly mean the cheap mode, which yes, its just torturing yourself. The performance difference from them was slightly less, 42s vs 32s, not huge, so maybe they have really good tolerance between the tip/heater.QuoteI disagree on this, its so easy to find power bricks that can be swapped out. If it is using 24V, which would be smart, then that is only a 24V 4A brick, very easy to find.GT90 in stock at mouser for $469 (USD):https://www.mouser.ca/ProductDetail/Metcal/GT90-HP-T4GT120 is $545.Tips $8.50 each.Good value IMO, considering the performance you get.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2020, 11:07:24 pm
content: Tips are cheap but cartridges are still $35 upwards. The difference in performance is roughly 25%, so a small setup with a handful of cartridges won't blow out costs too much.I'd not be throwing any old smps on it but I get you point. What I mean is if they made it serviceable from the outset it would just make life easier.If Metcal doesn't release tweezers or a vacuum desoldering handpiece for this series it's going to a bit weird buying another Metcal station with fixed temp cartridges just to access those tools.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2020, 11:46:27 pm
content: Yeah GT cartridges are $36 (GTC-CH0018S), a bit high, I can get thermaltronics cartridges for $18/ea.But I guess thats what happens when you put a fancy RTD in there.

author: coflynn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 03:57:03 pm
content: I had found this thread after getting a GT120 myself.As an user of other Curie-point induction irons (MX500P, MX5200, Thermaltronics TMT-9000S) the GT120 is a bit disappointing for the price. You don't see the iron heat up as fast as the curie-point irons, and heat delivery/recovery is noticeably worse. I'm testing with a chisel tip on both so fairly "fair" I think. This *is* with the heater core + extra tip on the GT120 (it ships with a heater core) rather than the all-in-one heater+tip. The two-piece construction was supposed to let us have much cheaper tips I presume, so part of what interested me in the GT120.It's still a nice iron & works well. But if you're coming from the other Metcal units (or trying to get their performance) you'll be disappointed. I don't have any of the other lower-frequency Metcal units so I'm not sure if this performance is related to the fact it seems to be a 450khz drive, whereas my other units are the 13.56Mhz drive, or it's related to the slightly slower measuring loop as it has the 2-piece tip construction on the one I tested (along with RTD response time).Like most Metcal stuff the soldering stand, wand, build quality, etc are all very good. So you aren't paying the premium for "nothing" and in terms of overall quality it seems to be in line with Metcal expectations for me. But if you have heard of the nice Metcal performance due to their Curie-point induction heaters (aka 'SmartHeat' name they use), be aware this iron isn't at the same level.On the huge power brick - it's actually an off the shelf Meanwell unit (P/N is GSM120A48-R7B, can find on digikey etc). So replacement won't be too hard if you ever needed it, and it means there is no smarts in the power brick, it's just24V48V out. One possible nice thing here is you could use the iron mobile, as it just needs any 48V DC source. It also means the provided power brick is universal input voltage, just swap the power cord end if you want to convert to another country, no opening the unit like the MX500.Hope this is helpful to someone else looking at this!EDIT - I was wrong on P/N of brick, was going from memory. It's 48V out once I checked in lab, edited post to add right voltage & PN.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2021, 10:46:20 pm
content: Quote from: coflynn on January 10, 2021, 03:57:03 pmSo, you have not tried the all in one tips. Any chance you will be purchasing one of those to compare? I can throw in a few $s.Still if it is not as good with the two-piece, thats already a bit disappointing, since their marketing material implied otherwise (but did not show it directly).

author: Free_WiFi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 02:44:18 pm
content: People are not happy about the build quality of this unit.https://i.ibb.co/Y7q8rNn/met1550.pngTaken from here :youtube.com/watch?v=S7h6sVx22sM

author: coflynn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2021, 05:54:20 pm
content: I'll give the all in one a try - a lot of stuff was unavailable when I first ordered. I've already sunk the cost of the iron so might as well go all the way ;-)The 2-piece tips also mean you need to unscrew something which is annoying too when changing - I'm used to just pulling the tip & slapping a new one in, and maybe 10 seconds of downtime all in. If you're switching for T/H to SMD etc it gets annoying having to unscrew stuff to me.I'll see if the 1-piece metcal tips improve things, might be the case.

author: coflynn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 04:03:32 pm
content: Update - with the full tip cartridge it's improved a lot in performance. But that makes for pretty expensive tips and changes the value of it a lot. I'll have to do a better comparison side by side when I get time... but just as a quick update.Quote from: Free_WiFi on January 15, 2021, 02:08:37 pmSo the little ring is plastic that mates into metal on the handle side (metal threads). Not sure on the plastic material - in theory it could be heat resistant enough, I mean the original metcal handles use a lot of plastic that has held up for many years. The handle is better than a cheap aliexpress one IMO - I mean the cord is the real silicon for example. It's not as nice as the newer Metcal handles on the MX5yyy line for sure. The thing does come with a normalish metcal stand too, so I don't think it's fair to claim the iron is no better than a $50 one.I also don't know how you'd get tips that last 10 years with any regular usage. Unless you really baby it, with any tip I think the plating will eventually get holes in it with regularish usage. I'm not too careful with mine though as see them as consumables so keep replacements stocked...EDIT - there is also a small rubber o-ring on the plastic thing you tighten, I assume to try and keep pressure there if it flexes a bit due to heat. Not a lot of compliance in it though as it's just an o-ring, not like a spring with more travel...

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2021, 12:36:17 pm
content: Old topic, but I didn't see much discussion of the Metcal GT-120. I recently got hold of one - generally it's "OK", but it's similar in performance to any other traditional soldering iron. I'm having trouble getting hold of the integrated heater/tip cartridges, but I would expect better results from those.

author: coflynn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2021, 12:44:21 pm
content: Thanks for posting!QuoteMy experience was that the "integrated tips" made it closer to a normal METCAL type performance. Coming from using METCAL units mostly before, the performance of the two-piece tips wasn't very impressive to me.

author: wickated
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2021, 05:17:31 pm
content: so they showed almost same results compared to jbc 2,4 tip, but the jbc tip they used as competitor is c245-759, that is not designed as top heat conductive. c245-741 is high heat conductive and obviously it will outperform that metcal in their testwith 470 series they competed with c470-002 instead of c470-015 and results were same.so metcal just made some overprice station for fans.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2021, 05:37:55 pm
content: Quote from: wickated on June 04, 2021, 05:17:31 pmThe JBC tip was a C245-407. I'd swapped tips compared to earlier in the video.

author: wickated
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2021, 05:54:11 pm
content: Quote from: SteveyG on June 04, 2021, 05:37:55 pmim talking about metcal tests, not yours

author: gtm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2021, 05:55:48 pm
content: Quote from: SteveyG on June 04, 2021, 05:37:55 pmAt what temperature?

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2021, 07:55:15 am
content: 357C, same as both Metcal units

author: wickated
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2021, 11:49:46 am
content: Quote from: gtm on June 04, 2021, 05:55:48 pmlike if it mean anything in this cheapas ad. a guy that has enough money and yt chanel cant buy another tip for comparsion.becausewow 7mm chisel solder coin very fast and 2mm chisel dont. much heat. so induction. metcal gave me 2 stations for free and some $$$ for making ad vid.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2021, 04:22:09 pm
content: I mentioned this in an earlier post. According to the GT90/120 manual: "Always use cartridge removal pad and turn off system when changing cartridges."So the part in the video at 23:30 is a bit misleading, cartridge detection does not imply hotswap capability.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 07, 2021, 05:43:34 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on June 05, 2021, 04:22:09 pmIt seems to allow you to do it though, so hot-swapping works.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 01:41:11 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on May 28, 2020, 11:44:07 pmI forgot to mention, it's actually an aluminium handpiece that's painted black. I originally thought it was plastic too.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2021, 09:42:03 pm
content: Update video, thanks for putting all that money into this:I wonder if they've ever considered or attempted a version with the RF heating, and having the heater slug portion removable as a swappable tip. Or if its just not possible to get good enough coupling.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 07:33:00 am
content: You need to eliminate human error when testing I think. On the Metcal MX5200 your feed rate was slower so the mean external tip temp was higher. This all alters the results, it's been proven subconsciously we will skew testing by being involved especially when most people (even I) would be biased towards the MX5200 going into the test (as it's a known top performer).As all these stations thermal profiles and tip masses are different you're comparing apples to oranges. I think you need to know external tip temp and chart the performance so you can conclude the mass of the tip. This would be done by selecting a few different sized tips in the same geometry type per station and coming up with some kind of mass per power delivery time ratio.The Pace has a soft heating curve near set temp. JBC has probably the most aggressive one on the market. The MX5200 is likely somewhere in between but we will give it the benefit of the doubt as having most efficient power delivery, so fast and likely the curve shorter than Paces.But I'm assuming the Metcal isn't overshooting and my point being without knowing all this ahead of time. The overshooting or worse regulating station (during recovery) with more power delivery that heats up a larger "looking" tip in a shorter time makes sense it will always be the winner.So they all need to be tested for their recovery regulation and tip mass because with similar power deliveries and heating speeds these are the performance indicators the will be predominant.If you don't test that then please let me send you the "worlds best soldering station" as I remove a hot iron poker from the fire. It would simply come down to the raw heating speed if you aren't considering mass and regulation near set temp.The other thing expecting the GT120 to be fully hotswap when there is no indication of it being so. It would be nice to get a proper answer as based on other stations I would say hot plug at best (since it has cartridge detection).Anyway nice, it's a more expensive aluminum handle than I thought and may be even be better performing than the old MX500. They just need to ditch the nut and build the supply into the station so you don't need to have a power brick on your bench. Would have better curb appeal.

author: wickated
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 09:56:00 am
content: Quote from: Shock on June 12, 2021, 07:33:00 amat least this vid looks like real comparsion. even using jbc station cheapass clone instead of original device looks more reallife experience than ever. and perfomance for same type tips (gt120/c245) is exact same. metcal 5200 could actually perform like ~5 more watt better thermal conduction due to lack of feedback loop(tip end-heater core-thermocouple) , which is enough to grill coin better as shown in vid.googled about 2p coin size - its 25mm 7g bronze coin, tinned in 10 secs in vid. in my country we have biggest available 22mm 6g brass coins, which are tinned in 7secs. so this vid is actually accurate.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 10:43:50 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on June 12, 2021, 07:33:00 amFeeding in faster could cause the tip temp to reduce more and control loop would pump more power in, giving an advantage.I don't see him "needing" to do these tests, but they may be interesting if he really feels he has the time (dude is busy).Anyone reasonable would measure the idle tip temperature of your hot poker and realize it was too high. All metcal/jbc/pace will have idle tip temps within ~10C of their expected setpoint.In terms of overshoot, you can see from JBC's own 2009 measurements they can have significant ~20C overshoot. Ersa and weller are much worse (at least the models tested here). Metcal has no overshoot.If you are doing mil-spec level soldering, sure you would care a lot.If you are hobbyist, soldering big copper areas, most won't care about 20C of overshoot if it means the iron performs better.

author: wickated
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2021, 01:07:07 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on June 12, 2021, 10:43:50 pmto eliminate human error u should joint coin pretinned with known amount of solder instead of tinning it for first time.dropping temp would not only say to pid to pump up power but also lead to slight overshoot. for example - highend jbc stations do profiled joint solder. cpu detects temp drop speed and suggests how big area is and give as much power as needed to make good solder joint. real tip temp would even be much hugher than set temp. this works better than standard pid which actually drop power when tip temp is near set instead of giving some more.inductive metcall actually dont need this due to lack of feedback loop and pid, but metcall instead use extremely high temp tips - 400c is like standard. this often make them look much better. and metcall tips dont burn as fast as resistive tips, so 400c inductive tips wears like 350 resistive one.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2021, 01:30:19 am
content: My point was the importance of how mass comes into play, look at the size of the GT120 tip it's huge. The MX5200 appears to do a better job with far less mass. This test doesn't highlight the potential shortcomings (well aside from the T12 isn't so great).It's why I think profiling the tips with temp measurement externally helps. The two most important things are temp and staying within target range. Mass (as I eluded to in my last post with the hot poker analogy) can be used as a crutch when soldering just a single target, it has a larger initial stored energy.So recovery speed on successive joints as shown in the JBC charts will uncover shortfalls that make it hard to hide with mass. Since the GT120 seems slower than the MX5200 to heat up there evidence already it's power to mass is lower.

author: wickated
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2021, 09:06:27 am
content: Quote from: Shock on June 13, 2021, 01:30:19 amtrick is not just power to mass, but power to temp delta. the less your temp drops, the more heat goes through. for example if i set 300c and just try to melt solid ton of copper, tip willl drain only 50 watt, but if i set 350c, power will rise to 70w. big tip internal mass means problems with heat transfer from heater to end, cuz you use copper tip material and drain surface you try to solder is copper too(so there always will be temp delta on tip end to heater core) . so fast feedback loop is better than huge mass - metcal has lower temp drop on tip end, its very little, but it makes sense.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2021, 12:23:26 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on June 12, 2021, 07:33:00 amNot sure how you've come to that conclusion or whether we're talking about different things - The feed rate was as fast as possible. The irons with the slower feed rate were not melting the solder as quickly, but the MX5200 certainly didn't have the slowest feed rate. In the earlier video the criticism was that the faster feed rates were of benefit to the heating of the coin.It's not a scientific test of course, and real-world soldering is rarely so demanding.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 12:03:33 am
content: New white paper on the GT90 and GT120.Would be nice if they tested against the older stations, but, its against some "unnamed" competitors.The test setup they used isn't terribly complicated. They use large chunks of copper, and wait until the temperature reaches a setpoint:They say "tip or cartridge" but they obviously are using their own cartridge design to get the best performance.The unnamed competitors, my guess in brackets:- A) 90W tip style(Weller WTP90)Weller WT1010- B) 75W cartridge style (Hakko FX951)- C) 150W tip style(Ersa i-con 1)Weller WT1010H- D) 140W cartridge style (Hakko FM-2030)If the 140W is the JBC, then it may not be capable of 140W, in one of SDG's videos he said it limited the output to 90W. You probably have to use T470 to get the full 140W. Sadly JBC does not make this clear in their documentation, that I can find, they just say "140W peak" for the base unit.edit: the 140W could be a Hakko too, didn't realize they had a 140W handle.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:36:56 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 15, 2022, 12:03:33 amI saw this too. I'm contemplating rigging up a similar setup.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:47:28 am
content: Quote from: SteveyG on February 15, 2022, 09:36:56 amI can machine the copper posts. Although I'm not sure what they did to attach the thermocouple to the copper. You can see tape and some thermocouple wires, not clear where it goes. Maybe just sitting on the PCB.For simplicity you could use a single copper block, with the thermocouple jammed in the side somewhere. Similar to a 3D printer heater block (they sell brass and copper ones).For the tip measurement:"Type-K thermocouples were spot welded to the soldering tip of each soldering system under test."Kind of destroys your tip at that point. What I did was tape thermocouple to the tip, sort of half works, or just ignore tip temp and focus on the block temperature (would tell you raw performance but not overshoot).

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 08:22:33 pm
content: Added more details about what competitor stations were, it looks like they originally left out JBC, probably because its performance was good comparably:https://www.metcal.com/solder-tips/top-3-factors-that-influence-hand-soldering-performance/They show some graphs with overshoot but the GT90 is going just as much over temp, lol