Lunar landing anniversary today - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: AlbertL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 07:00:32 pm
content: 53 years ago today (7/20/1969 at 20:17 UTC) the Apollo 11 mission accomplished the first manned lunar landing. I enjoy listening to the mission control audio in real time at this site:https://apolloinrealtime.org/11/.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 09:24:21 pm
content: Yep, today.Right here in Australia though it is Thursday July 21st , not 20th. 7:25am as I post. The question I want to pose is what date should it be observed? Should the date depend on where you are located?

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 09:26:30 pm
content: That was a pretty amazing event. I remember it.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 09:33:59 pm
content: Yep, they landed on my 10th birthday. At the time, I took it as some kind of omen about what (and where) I might do for a job in decades to come. Little did I know!

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 09:38:19 pm
content: Seems not worthy of a Google Doodle.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2022, 12:03:57 am
content: Quote from: metrologist on July 20, 2022, 09:38:19 pmIf NASA had been into all this rainbow crap back in the day and planted such a flag on the moon you could bet your ass it would be all over Google.https://fineartamerica.com/featured/pride-rainbow-lgbt-gay-pride-nasa-logo-csd-rainbow-flag-emilyb-lydon.html?product=sticker

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2022, 06:52:03 am
content: They are waiting to celebrate the first female mission that Americans are promising to send in a few years.The new flag of the United States will surely fly with them and then it will be all over Google

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2022, 07:00:17 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on July 21, 2022, 12:03:57 amWith the Republican Congressmen, it was the ones crying the loudest about persecuting the gays who were themselves gay. I wonder about this guy... He doth protest too much, methinks.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 21, 2022, 10:41:50 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on July 20, 2022, 09:24:21 pmIt occurred at a quite specific time - and the time at which it occurred for each observer iscompletelydependent on the time zone of that observer. For me, it was the middle of the day on the 21st - and it shall always be that.Even in America, they annotate the time with the time zone. I just apply the same logic, but on a global scale - after all, it was a global scale event!

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2022, 02:25:31 pm
content: The time given isUTCQuote

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2022, 11:23:00 pm
content: I consider the lunar landing to be the most significant event in human history so far.It is quite literally a crime against our own species that we have not gotten any humans past low earth orbit in 50 years. I believe I read a NASA estimate that in any given year there is a 1 in 2000 chance of a rogue space object striking the earth with sufficient energy to cause global effects. We should be striving toward getting off this rock as a matter of insurance, if for none of the other excellent reasons. Governments the world over are negligent for not pursuing this as one of their highest priorities.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2022, 12:40:47 am
content: I find it to be a pretty amazing achievement, but I also feel like we've kind of "been there, done that". The difference in effort required to get men on the moon and bring them home vs the effort to get them anywhere else more interesting is astronomical. Mars is frankly kind of boring in my opinion, it's pretty much just a bigger much further away version of the moon and we already have numerous robots exploring that. The scale of the universe means that even travelling at the speed of light it's going to take a very long time to get anywhere likely to net any sort of major discoveries and unmanned probes are a lot more practical than a manned mission. Star Trek only works because they have warp propulsion and that unfortunately is likely to remain fiction unless we discover some fundamentally new aspect about how physics works.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2022, 04:18:30 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on July 21, 2022, 11:23:00 pmReally? More significant than the wheel? Fire? Vaccines? Antibiotics?QuoteWhat do you expect from space travel other than a huge bill?Quote"Getting off this rock" is in no way useful to the 7 billion of us who will have to remain behind. I've never understood why anyone thinks it is important to perpetuate the species by colonizing outer space. Even if that were an important goal, we are so far from being able to accomplish that, it's not even a dream at this point. Give it a few hundred more years and maybe we can take another look. For now, there's no place we've identified as being remotely practical to go.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2022, 04:39:30 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 22, 2022, 12:40:47 amEven as fiction, Star Trek is a bit ridiculous. I guess I've never paid attention to whether they've left the galaxy, still, within the galaxy, you have to exceed the speed of light by huge factors to get around. It's 52,000 light years across. I know on Star Gate, they travel between galaxies, which is truly mind boggling distances, millions of light years.How did they put it in Hitchhiker's Guide? '"Space," [the Hitchhiker's Guide] says, "is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space.'Something I just learned, is that there are galaxies so close, they appear larger than the moon!https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap061228.html

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2022, 07:08:53 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on July 21, 2022, 11:23:00 pmIf a single dollar can save a life of someone in a third world country yet so often doesn't happen, I can't see governments putting up millions of dollars per person to move those same people to some other planet. They are not of sufficient value to them. Q.E.D.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2022, 07:24:48 am
content: If you keep feeding those who can not feed themselves, what do you think it will happen in the long term?They'll grow in numbers, then they'll come after your food. I'm not speculating, this is happening already.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2022, 08:07:22 am
content: The logic is to turn whole world into a mouse utopia, which already worked to slow down overpopulation in some areas.Funding volunteer to colonize the Moon or even Mars is also a good investment

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2022, 04:58:46 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on July 22, 2022, 04:39:30 amKeeping in mind that it is purely fiction, a speed of warp 9 is nearly 2,000 light years in a 24 hour period so I think that counts as exceeding the speed of light by "huge factors", that kind of speed would make such exploration practical if it were possible to do.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2022, 05:58:43 pm
content: QuoteA journey of a thousand miles starts with a first step.Uh, but also:https://despair.com/products/ambition?variant=2457295747

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2022, 07:31:38 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on July 21, 2022, 11:23:00 pmThat is quite an odd statement.As others have said, while pretty fascinating, the point of doing that is a questionable use of resources.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2022, 10:53:59 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 22, 2022, 05:58:43 pmYou missed my point. If there is nothing useful to do at the moment, then we should do that.What does the journey of a thousand light years start with? The answer is not a single step. I'd say it starts with waiting for Zefram Cochrane to invent the warp drive. Until then, any efforts are just pissing into the wind.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 03:44:33 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on July 20, 2022, 09:24:21 pmNevada Desert time.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 06:16:46 am
content: QuoteThere is nearly always something useful to do. Just finding out how not to die for an extended period can be useful!Waiting for a warp drive to pop into existence is futile, even if one could exist. And suppose it did - we're not going to just hop on and find EarthII all ready for the first colonists. That's if we even last long enough for such a drive to be a twinkle in anyone's eye, which it won't be if we're sitting around waiting for something to happen before getting off our arse.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 06:26:03 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 23, 2022, 06:16:46 amSometimes I wonder, if the Russians had of kept going, if the US would have had by now a Antarctica-style moon base set up with regular visits/crew shifts like the space station.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 07:40:18 am
content: There is something to be said for competition, but the biggies really need cooperation.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 05:12:32 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on July 22, 2022, 04:18:30 amIf the species is to survive, locational diversity is required. Otherwise we go the way of the dinosaurs. Richard Feynman had something to say on this subject but I can't find the quote.Most of our advancements from the vacuum tube era were driven by the space program. For certain, integrated circuits started from the space program.https://ethw.org/Integrated_Circuits_and_the_Space_Program_and_Missile_DefenseAdvances in science and medicine are directly attributable to the space program. Science, for science sake alone, is worth the expenditure. Besides, what other jobs are there for astrophysicists? In fact, the program created a huge demand for engineering students in the early '60s. Frankly, October 4, 1957scared the hell out of us. I was just starting 7th grade and the shift in emphasis toward math was immediate. No more post-war screwing around, everybody had to get an education so we would have enough engineers for national defense.Of course I also remember the reporting of the Strontium-90 levels on the hourly radio news broadcasts. And the weekly air raid siren tests. Everybody in San Diego County was supposed to head out toward El Centro when the siren went off. All those cars and, I believe, a single lane highway for about 100 miles. I don't think it was well thought out. Hence the 'duck and cover' drills.The space program provided an enormous number of jobs scattered throughout the country. MANY small machine shops employed quite a few machinists and other workers making subassemblies for the space program. I was ther, I worked in one. Interesting times... Sputnik launched

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 05:37:41 pm
content: +1000 to everything rstofer said above.Even if we never leave the solar system, the spinoff benefits at the individual, national, and global level are incalcuable. Much of today's electronics technology was prompted by aerospace and the need to drastically reduce volume, weight, and power consumption. Medical advances, and understanding of how the human body works (and thus how to maintain and "repair" it) stem from research into extended spaceflight. The list is nearly endless. A huge number of things the average person takes for granted today exist thanks to the "space race" and its derivative technologies.There's also the defense aspect. Space is the ultimate "high ground". Whomever has the best space tech will be in a position to control what happens below. I don't like that any more than anyone else, but it's the truth and we ignore it at our peril.Permanent base(s) on the moon are absolutely doable. And the moon is the ideal launch point for more distant efforts. The moon has almost all of the raw materials (including water) and plentiful solar energy to process them. Launches are 1/6th of earth's gravity so less fuel is required - and fuel is the single largest payload, so the ripple effect of its reduction improves everything. It probably makes some missions possible that would otherwise not be.Permanent base(s) on Mars are doable too, especially if we leverage what we learn from doing it on the moon. Baby steps. And the spinoffs will continue to benefit all of mankind, just as those from the "space race" still do today.Lots of things were impossible until someone did them. "Man will never fly." "A human cannot run a mile in under four minutes." "Man will never step on the moon." Those who claim something is impossible should get out of the way of those making it happen.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 06:35:58 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on July 23, 2022, 05:37:41 pmI kind of wonder what the Chinese are doing on the dark side of the Moon. It certainly isn't tourist weather...That Russia and China are going to joint venture a permanent Moon base in the next 15 years (give or take) isn't really good news. The US simply doesn't have the will to counter that with our own base(s). We need one base yesterday and a half dozen more by next week!NASA is just a shell of its former organization, incapable of doing much of anything. It's certainly not the NASA I remember from the '60s and '70s. We had been subcontracting to Russia to get to the space station and back - unacceptable! SpaceX (and Elon Musk) has improved on that situation!Still, we are the only country that was sent 6 spacecraft and 12 astronauts to the Moon. Funny how the first is the most well known (Armstrong) and I doubt that many people could name the last (Cernan).

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 06:37:25 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on July 23, 2022, 06:26:03 amThe fact China has moon programs is exactly why the US is getting interested in moon programs again as well. This is happening again.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 06:41:14 pm
content: One thing I like to point out: The Moon landing on July 20th, 1969 should take "can't" out of the dictionary. That word should be banned in all its forms: written, spoken or thought. There's no such thing as can't.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 07:23:59 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 23, 2022, 05:12:32 pmI guess I never really understood why this is important. What is so special about our particular species that we need to try to ensure its survival after our planet is dead? It's not like you or I will survive, the vast majority of the billions of humans on this planet are going to die eventually and our civilizations will eventually crumble. What advantage is it to spread our species to other planets? The dinosaurs had a good run, we've been doing ok so far, we'll be gone eventually, nothing lasts forever. It's not going to rescue people on earth to find a new habitable planet, it's just going to create some new people somewhere else, and it's extremely unlikely that will ever succeed given the vast distance we would have to cover. I kind of see this as people grappling with their own mortality and not wanting to accept that none of us will exist forever. We should be trying to solve our problems right here on earth rather than focusing on finding somewhere else to go. I am quite confident that humans are going to create their own demise long before our planet becomes uninhabitable due to natural reasons.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 07:25:48 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 23, 2022, 06:41:14 pmI disagree. You can't create something from nothing. Do you think we could create an over-unity machine if we put the sort of effort into the project that was put into the moon missions? I don't think so. There are things that are difficult but achievable, and there are things that can't be done.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 08:52:27 pm
content: QuoteIt's built in. Propagating the species is the reason we can have sex, so it's not like we don't care (as a species).And you're right that we personally won't be here for long, so why fart around with the climate stuff and anything else that takes more than 20-30 years? We won't be around to worry about what the next generation has to put up with.But, for some reason, we do care. We do give a toss about what we're leaving our kids or even other people's kids. That's what's special about our species, if nothing else, and I don't see why that should be an issue. After all, if you don't want to be a part of that you can always check out early.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 05:55:12 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 23, 2022, 07:23:59 pmIndividuals and populations like you are a self-correcting problem, even before taking dunkemhigh's advice.You can thank you rationalist-neoliberal brainwashing for your feelings about life. Many such cases in your country, and a big reason why it totally sucks today.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 07:00:49 am
content: The reason for why no Moon base:

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 09:34:33 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on July 22, 2022, 04:39:30 amHow to kill your credibility.You might want to pay more attention next time you pull out some numbers.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 01:36:54 pm
content: Oh, common, please don't speak in riddles, I have no idea what that number should be, and most of all don't try to denigrate others. If you see a mistake, just say the correct info.Anyway, came here to say the full documentary is on YouTube (the one from 2014, that has in it Buzz Aldrin telling about that "UFO" like he observed).Aliens On The Moon The Truth Exposed 2014 New SyFy DocumentaryX Comet İsonhttps://youtu.be/wxERd9ImAwYVery interesting documentary for the UFO enthusiast, just don't bet everything on that.SPOILER: If you don't have 90 minutes to spend, the documentary has a lot of grainy pics, but also intriguing tales and mysteries, and at the end it has a few images showing huge installations from the dark side of the Moon, reminding of a refinery by the look of those structures (at 1:12:50). Not sure if that was CGI, or film/photos, or if it was entirely make-up. And the body/leftovers of one or two human-like alien female around minute 1h:17min.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 03:17:02 pm
content: So there IS a moon base. Just not a human one. Yet.Which proves it's doable!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 03:24:05 pm
content: ridley scotts first gig

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 03:56:19 pm
content: Guess I'm late to the party, but reading about "we need to spread out, and start on the moon, because the Chinese and the Russians are doing it" proves that we should not. And why, we are already fucking up one planet with war and overpopulation and the rest of the shit.Sure let's go out to the moon and do it there too, and then next up mars, and whats next.Would you like to live on a station on the moon? No fresh air, no outside nature, no naturally filtered sunlight, well not me.But aside from that there are also things like DNA diversity to consider. Traveling to a distant livable planet would mean going there with enough people to not create an inbred society of retards, or taking along a huge amount of human eggs and sperm to be able to make a lot of people from it to start a new healthy population. This would require a big and special space craft. But of course Elon Musk to the rescue.I agree with james_s, let thing run their course here on earth and lets not waste a lot of resources on something that in the end will not be doable.And sure you can care about the next couple of generations, but what are you actually doing about making it better? Buy into the whole renewable energy foolery? As I wrote before, that is just shifting the problem. Not a solution. It won't safe humanity, and neither would setting up camp on the moon, mars or what other planet you have. Self destruction is in our DNA, and it is called greed and envy.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 04:06:02 pm
content: QuoteDon't worry - the radiation will damage DNA enough to make offspring very diverse

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 04:07:14 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 24, 2022, 04:06:02 pmLOL

author: cannoli
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 04:16:22 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 24, 2022, 04:07:14 pmI laughed at this too. I joined the forum, new and encountering something like this. You made me smile.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 04:41:13 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on July 24, 2022, 03:17:02 pmYou won the Internet at the "Best Optimist" category!

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 04:47:58 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on July 24, 2022, 03:17:02 pmThat is from our fore fathers, hundreds of thousand years old

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 06:34:14 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 23, 2022, 08:52:27 pmFarting around with the climate stuff, or whatever efforts needed to preserve our planet is saving or improving the lives of vast numbers of people that are already born and that will soon be born. It serves a purpose to prevent the deaths of people that are already alive and reduce their suffering. Finding a new planet to inhabit doesn't accomplish that, it does nothing for the *vast* majority of the population that are going to die in a cataclysmic event. It is not possible to evacuate the population of the earth even if we had somewhere to go, all we can do is send a few seeds somewhere else and that is not the same thing at all. To put it into perspective, no matter how badly we screw up or pollute our planet, it's going to remain far more habitable than any other place we are capable of reaching without some kind of warp propulsion. Rebuilding earth after a nuclear holocaust is easy next to colonizing Mars.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 07:32:23 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 24, 2022, 06:34:14 pmYup. Of course.We'd literally need to blow up the Earth in order to make colonizing another (close) planet a viable alternative.(I added 'close', just in case we end up finding a very far away planet, in a completely different galaxy, that would be easier to colonize than, say, Mars. But that hypothesis is still pretty unlikely, if just for the probable distance if such a planet does exist, making it a lot more likely that the human species would have long disappeared by the time we could.)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 09:12:01 pm
content: Quote from: magic on July 24, 2022, 05:55:12 amI don't even know what nationalist-neoliberal means, nor do I see what politics have to do with any of this, I just call it as I see it. Life is a series of rather impressive chemical reactions. Even being one of them, I view humans as somewhat of a parasite on the universe. We consume vast quantities of resources, destroy the landscape, pollute the air, and we kill our own species both in wars and on smaller scales over trivial matters and material goods. The planet is overpopulated and getting worse all the time. I grew up in a nice quiet rural area which has now been completely overrun. All of our open space including loads of prime agricultural land have been paved and built over with thousands of cookie cutter housing developments. Our roads are clogged at almost all hours of the day and night and everywhere is so crowded that it feels suffocating and is becoming unbearable, I have a constant feeling that people are in my way. I would absolutely love it if the population dropped to 1970s levels but I don't see that happening, and some people actually want it to keep growing which boggles the mind. Talk about a self correcting problem, at some point wars over diminishing resources will destroy us, long before our planet dies of natural causes. At some point mother nature is going to slap us down into our place, the Covid pandemic was a bit like a warning shot.We have an amazing planet to live on, one that is perfectly suited to us, and we are busy trashing it and looking for the next place to take over and trash rather than focusing on taking care of the place we have. If there is life elsewhere in the universe that is aware of us, I would not blame them in the least for not making themselves known.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 09:24:13 pm
content: QuoteActually, one to which we are perfectly suited.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 04:31:04 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 24, 2022, 06:34:14 pmQuote from: james_s on July 24, 2022, 09:12:01 pmThese two statements are a bit contradictive. On the one hand you want to prevent death, and on the other hand you are complaining about overpopulation.The latter is the sore truth we don't want to hear. And the more the population grows the harder it gets to feed and keep them all alive. But it is the only economic viable option, because that is the system we adhere.Quote from: james_s on July 24, 2022, 06:34:14 pmIn comparison probably true, but it still would take a lot of effort and resources. The biggest problem I see in the whole survival of the human race is the availability of resources. It is not just fossil fuels that are not endlessly available, it is a lot of other resources too. There is not enough easy obtainable lithium on the planet to make batteries for every car on the planet, the same goes for cobalt, and all the other materials needed to keep all industry a float.So saving the human race needs a whole other attitude than the thought of science and technology will save the day. But that is not convenient, because we can't do without it anymore. Just take a look at the smart phone. Go out onto the streets of whatever city and you see people walking with the thing glued to their hand.Quote from: james_s on July 24, 2022, 09:12:01 pmVery true. If you look at it closely, we are no different than large colonies of, for instance, rats. When there are to many of them they start eating each other and disease starts to spread more and more reducing their numbers to a livable level, to just start over again.With the way we are roaming the world nowadays diseases will spread much faster, and indeed Covid is a good example of that. But with only a less then 5% death rate it would have made just a very small dent in the global population, no where near what is needed to reduce the population to a true sustainable level. That is what mankind will do themselves eventually when resources are so scarce that wars will be started over them.And then, just like the rats, it will start all over again, only to find itself on a planet without natural resources. Sure at first it is possible to recycle what was harvested before, but that also is not endless.And this al might seem gloom, but it is the ugly truth.Quote from: james_s on July 24, 2022, 09:12:01 pmVery well said. It is very beautiful and for as far as we can see or tell unique, but boy do we fuck it up.Quote from: james_s on July 24, 2022, 09:12:01 pmAnd that is why the wife and I fled the Netherlands to rural France. Here we can go for a nice walk without a single encounter with an other person. Going to the supermarket is a bit of a travel, but it is always a confirmation that we did the right thing. Way to many people mindlessly going about filling their shopping carts with trashQuote from: james_s on July 24, 2022, 09:12:01 pmAt least with our way of living we did one thing right. We made our planet unattractive for whatever life there is in the universe. Only when they like human flesh they can have a large feastEdit: And think about it, in the grand scheme, does it really matter when the human race goes extinct? Are we so special compared to, for instance, the dinosaurs or any of the other species that we actively eradicated from the planet?Only a small number of people actually made big discoveries to further the species as a whole, but this does not stop everyone pounding its own chest and saying how great we are. And when it goes wrong it is always someone else to blame.Just like with your favorite football team. When they win it is "we did great" and when they loose it is, "dammit the assholes lost the game". Or "I'm from Armenia", like a chef in a restaurant told us, "and some famous people come form there. Like Cher and Charles Aznavour." Yes, but what does that say about you? Did you have anything to do with them becoming famous?

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 07:15:28 am
content: We were talking lunar landing and space exploration, and suddenly global worming and self guilt-tripping.If this is not mind conditioning, then I don't know what it is.james_sthat is exactly how any other animal or plant or even rock came into existence, by a chain of physical and chemical transformations. They all ARE the universe, not the parasites. Do you think humans are parasites because they multiply and fill their environment, any other living thing does the same. This is what life is.You think 1970 was OK? I was just listening to an audiobook about the early 1900 years in Romania/Europe. The peasants were asking their masters to give them land, because there were too many people.What I don't like about global warming is that I'm fear-mongered with it since I can remember. Al Gore and various scientists keep telling me in 10-20 the world will end. Since then, those 10-20 years deadlines have passed about 4 times now.Another question I have is how that everybody is so sure that the increase in CO2is because of humans? In the past it was hundreds of times bigger, yet there were no humans and no industry back then. I'm talking about charts like these (Ma means "Million years ago"):Chart source:https://www.e-education.psu.edu/earth103/node/1018Humans, just like any other animal, can be tamed. If you keep repeating the same thing to them, while fear-mongering and guilt-tripping them, they will eventually believe anything, and obey anything. Except when a population is pushed into survival mode. In such situations (e.g. hunger), all the brainwashing is dropped in favor of survival instincts.Since I know nothing about long term history of the Earth, or about geology and alike, I can only look at other indicators, and it rather looks like propaganda to me. Not sure if it's an intentionally fueled propaganda, or if it's just a random trend that perpetuates itself because it was repeated too many times, like religions.I might be wrong, but this is how it looks like to me, random dude that doesn't use social media: Any broader discussion, no mater how interesting (like moon landing/space exploration in this case), if it's broader, then it invariably degenerates into preaching the same few topics over and over. Global warming, gender issues, holocaust, racism, left vs right, things like that. Why? If you ask anybody in a face to face talk, they'll tell you they are sick of hearing about any of these subjects, so why it still happens? I think social media achieved mass brainwashing, intentionally or by accident, and it all self-fuels now. My rambling is too long already, gonna stop here.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 08:29:08 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on July 24, 2022, 01:36:54 pmOK. The figure given was for the radius.Every number of that magnitude I came across in regards to the size of the Milky Way was noted as being the radius.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 08:47:27 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on July 24, 2022, 09:34:33 amWoW! Only in an engineering forum would someone completely miss the point by focusing on such a trivial detail.That's what I get for hanging out with nerds.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 09:17:41 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on July 25, 2022, 07:15:28 amFor me the talk was an extension of space exploration, and more specifically the drive of some that the human species has to extend its grasp onto other parts of the universe, where james_s, to my opinion, rightfully argued that the species here on earth is not capable of doing such a good job and going into space would not save the species either.Quote from: RoGeorge on July 25, 2022, 07:15:28 amMind conditioning is all around, and it starts the moment you are born. I think the comparison with parasites is based on behavior that the human race shows. Feeding of the environment without bringing anything useful back to the environment. Here you can start an argument about what is useful, and that every other living organism does the same, but non the less this is what the human race is doing.Quote from: RoGeorge on July 25, 2022, 07:15:28 amHuman trade, live was better back then, will always be used. Some things will have been better, other things not.Quote from: RoGeorge on July 25, 2022, 07:15:28 amCertainly true, and this and other topics will be used to do the taming of the people for as long as there are people. That is also life. But that does not mean we should not complain about it.Quote from: RoGeorge on July 25, 2022, 07:15:28 amAnd that is why I question this myself. But a fact is that the human race is treating this planet poorly, and will continue to do so until we go extinct, and when we do, nature will restore, until some other species picks up again and history repeats.Quote from: RoGeorge on July 25, 2022, 07:15:28 amYes and that is what I fear and what may bring the human race to extinction. The strongest will win and be left with a fucked up planet.Quote from: RoGeorge on July 25, 2022, 07:15:28 amWell random dude, this is also social media, but that aside, these discussions flow into these topics, because that is what is on most of our minds, and here both sides are free to advocate their point of view. And yes social and any other form of media is working very hard to brainwash the human race. Commercials for instance are there to steer you to the shops and buy stuff you don't necessarily need. News is filtered and adjusted to steer you into believing what is true and right. And so on.Sure it all is no different from the way back preacher standing on his pedestal and scaring his flock to do this and not that by use of eternal damnation. It is just on a far bigger scale.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 10:46:06 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 25, 2022, 09:17:41 amIn perfect context with this discussion, what that preacher should have directed his flock's attention to is where it says "and the appointed time came...to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." Revelation 11:18.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 10:55:58 am
content: QuoteIgnoring what this all is about, I was thinking about this particular aspect. On the face of it that seems obvious, but...The war in Ukraine has shown how fragile our manufacturing capability is. For chips, in particular, there is just one company producing stuff that everyone depends on, and that company depends on single source other companies. It's a bit of a circular thing, and it's just one example.Now, suppose a nuke took them out. We would be quite crippled. In a proper nuclear exchange that would happen to many resources, and we could easily be back to where we were just after WWII. Sure we would have, at least temporarily, the knowledge but no way to apply it for quite some time. And since the low-hanging fruit of resources has already been picked, the second time around it might be a lot harder to get to the same technical place.So, we might well survive but we're not going to be buying stuff with abandon on Aliexpress or whatever.Switching to Mars or the moon... well, it's an uphill struggle from the start and everything would need to be closed circuit. We couldn't, for instance, camp out while we build a rough shed from local timber. But we would have the full technical backing of Mother Earth, and that's not something to be sneezed at. Perhaps, in the end, that's a more successful route than starting again with nothing and again getting nowhere.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 11:12:34 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 25, 2022, 10:55:58 amThe war in the Ukraine might well be abused to make us believe there are shortages due to it, where the actual shortage might be due to hoarders trying to make more money. Not the first time in history that prices are being manipulated by investors, but that is just a thought.Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 25, 2022, 10:55:58 amThat's a given, but it also proves how much we now rely on modern technology. After a nuclear war, having computers should be the least of our worries. A roof over our heads and food will be far more important.Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 25, 2022, 10:55:58 amAnd why would things be different on the moon with or without backup from earth. People will be people and things will turn sour in the end.Also consider that there is a shortage of a lot of things here on earth, and to build a colony on the moon would require a lot of materials that we are short on already. Also consider the amount of fuel to get them up to the moon. So why waste it to just prolong the existence of the species on another location while the rest of the species dies here on earth

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 01:30:01 pm
content: QuoteMy point was that it doesn't take a lot to bring us down. The Ukraine thing was to show how quickly that can occur, but unlike the Ukraine thing, a nuclear war would mean it's not a hoarding problem but a manufacturing problem - there would be no more coming along if you just wait long enough or pay enough.QuoteI am not sure you are getting the drift. Are you saying you would be OK to live without technology? Back to 1930's lifestyle? Have you really thought that through?QuoteBecause things are a lot easier if you have a supply line to good resources than if you don't. Say you toddle off to the middle of nowhere with some batteries for your phone and not a lot else. It's going to be a drag pretty quick, right? You'll have to figure out how to get food from somewhere, water, etc. But with a supply line back to your gaff you can have electricity on tap, Amazon deliveries and whatever. Isn't that going to be somewhat different to 'without backup'?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 02:25:40 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on July 25, 2022, 08:47:27 amWho says I missed the point? I certainly did not.You may consider an error in excess of 50,000 light years as trivial, but I kinda think it is significant - especially as the numbers are all too easily found.QuoteYeah ... OK. On that I'd have to plead guilty.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 04:27:45 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 25, 2022, 01:30:01 pmTrue. Being it a world wide pandemic or a fairly local war, with the world very intertwined these day's a "small" hick-up can have large consequences.Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 25, 2022, 01:30:01 pmNo I'm saying that in the event of a nuclear war we are basically forced to live without modern technology, and that having modern technology in that moment of time will not help us to rebuild a new world. Over time it can come back and quicker than before if, and only if, the knowledge is not lost. With a lot of it in computer storage it might well get lost though.It will take a lot of "man" power to rebuild society, depending on how much of it got destroyed and contaminated for that matter.I'm just as much used to having technology as the next guy, and would feel lost if it was not there anymore, but in case of such an event would still be able to build and create stuff with my own hands.Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 25, 2022, 01:30:01 pmI was not hinting at the difference between doing such a thing without or without a supply chain, I was talking about how a new society will develop if it where to be build. Hence the "People will be people and things will turn sour in the end." statement at the end of what I wrote there.Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 25, 2022, 01:30:01 pmWell first of all, if I was to undertake such an adventure my phone would be way down on the list. An initial supply of food and water and some camping gear would be very high up that list. And sure a way to get new supplies would be very helpful, but the ability to make do with what is at hand would be far more helpful.And why not the phone, what good will it do if there is no service in the area you are going toBut I guess that is becoming more and more the problem, people can't do without that phone anymore, and are lost without it. For me a computer yes, because that is a tool I use very much to do projects with, but my phone I could do without were it not that technology forces it upon me, with two step verification protocols and what more they think of to use it for.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 04:48:45 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on July 25, 2022, 02:25:40 pmThe point was the number is orders of magnitude larger that practical even for something like a warp drive. Then you nitpick over a factor of 2. See?I can't believe I'm arguing over Star Trek on the Internet!!! What has my life become!!???

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 04:53:24 pm
content: There's another aspect to space that is based on the human psyche: We as a species seem to need to be looking outward to prevent stagnation. That sounds like a tautology but it's more.There was a time when anything past the horizon was the great unknown. It took courage, acceptance of risk, and lots of money to fund expeditions, over land or sea, to discover what was "out there". Those societies that didn't expand their vision shrank and were lost to history.You see this scenario play out even in small children. Those whose inquisitiveness is encouraged enter into a positive feedback loop of faster learning and greater discovery. Those who are restricted, whether intentional or by sad circumstances, often have their die cast for life. Sure, they become functional adults, but they miss a greater life experience because their inherent drive for knowledge and experience was suppressed.I fear humanity is becoming North Korea writ large. Without an open mind, without the outward-looking attitude that welcomes exploration and the pursuit of new things and new experiences and "what's out there", our species risks becoming a bunch of navel-gazers trapped in a cage of our own resignation and lethargy. Like children given no mental stimulus and left to rot in front of a television every day, we do our species a disservice if we resign ourselves to "this is everything" and "there's nothing important over the horizon" and "stop wasting your time on unachievable dreams".I suspect it was Musk who said this, but no matter, it's a good summation: "Earth is the cradle of human civilization, but at some point you must leave the cradle."

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 05:18:57 pm
content: QuoteIt was a metaphor, illustrative of short time of usability.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 07:15:18 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 25, 2022, 05:18:57 pmThat I got, but I countered it to show the need for preparing and the usefulness of skill.For example we know landing on the moon is possible, and also that live in a space station is possible. Both took lots of preparation to accomplish this. And sure a lot of technological advancement where made in name of these projects, but so did several wars. This is another point, but mentioned earlier in this thread, so just to address that.For a next step a suggestion is made to build a base on the moon, because launching from the moon takes less energy, but it would still require to bring all of the equipment to the moon which is needed to build on it. Even though the moon might hold some essential resources these would have to be mined and processed first. So it won't be an easy feat to accomplish this. And what I wonder about here is whom is willing to be part of this feat? Sure the unknown will lure in a lot of people, but do they have the skills required. And who droppes out when they hear what the living conditions will be, and what the risks are.As I wrote before I like nature to much to be stuck in some special moon cubicle to build on the spread of the human race.And to take it even further, think of the long travel through space to reach the nearest possible habitable planet. Even with some maybe possible hyper drive it would still take a long time of 40 years or so. What will that do to the psyche of the astronauts. This to address the quote below.Quote from: IDEngineer on July 25, 2022, 04:53:24 pmYes as a baby growing up you leave the cradle at some point, and I would then like to say that human civilization is still in its infancy stage and has to grow up first. Because take a look at the world, true civilization is not what we are doing. Lets fix that first before venturing of into the unknown.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 10:02:02 pm
content: “I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.”

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 12:44:47 am
content: I don't know why some focus so much on global warming, that's only the tip of the iceberg as far as humans wrecking the environment we live in. We have gotten a lot better in recent years but we still spew toxic chemicals into the atmosphere, bodies of water and into the ground. I don't remember which one but there was a river that actually caught fire at one point because there was so much industrial waste in it. We had a bit of a close call with a big hole in our ozone layer which we caught and dealt with in the nick of time. We polluted almost every corner of the globe with toxic lead back when TEL was used in gasoline. We are consuming fossil fuels and other resources that took millennia to accrue at rates far faster than they can be replenished. We are over-fishing the oceans, risking extinction of species we depend on, we have already directly caused the extinction of a number of other species. We've had multiple world wars and now there are weapons capable of destroying the entire planet several times over. There have even been cases where that got dangerously close to happening, and a few where nuclear weapons were accidentally dropped but did not detonate. Look at how badly the affects of Covid have affected us and then imagine what it will be like when there is an energy shortage unlike anything we have ever seen, a food shortage, etc. At the present rate of resource consumption and population growth it's a matter of when, not if.I am fairly sure we humans will cause our own demise long before the sun burns out, and if we manage to escape this planet and settle somewhere else, there is no reason to believe these habits won't follow us. I would be shocked if an isolated colony somewhere didn't get torn to shreds by politics, fighting, love triangles, resource contention and other factors within a short period. If we can't even manage to coexist here and take care of the home we have, why should we get another one and what reason is there to believe it would work out any better?

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 03:35:35 am
content: There's no reason to believe things would be different on another planet. The behavior you're describing isn't new, it's burned into human DNA.However, if we just turned inward, there'd be no reason to have children anymore. Just live it up and then die, and let this generation be the last. Clearly that's not happening, so we should make things as good as possible going forward.I agree with taking care of this planet. But that does not mean space exploration and colonization should be cancelled. We should be doing BOTH. We should be taking care of our "cradle" because the majority of our population will continue to live here. But we should be reaching out too, like the explorers of old, and since we've mapped and colonized our cradle... "out" means "space".The moon is doable. Mars is doable. The other planets... well, not so much, but there are some interesting moons around Jupiter and Saturn that hold some promise. Am I talking seriously huge Engineering projects that are likely decades out? Yes. But what's the option? Just sit here, twiddling our thumbs, while people in neighboring countries hate each other? That's going to happen anyway (human DNA, remember?) so how about we offset that with something positive?We should have been working on (example) a permanent moon base in the 70's immediately after Apollo. We've shamefully wasted 50+ years. A moon base is within reach in 10-20 years using present technology, which will yield further technological advancements useful on earth as well as in space, benefitting those who live in both places. This is not idle speculation, we have the history of the space race to prove it. Let's get started.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 03:39:46 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 25, 2022, 07:15:18 pmThat's the excuse of the naysayers throughout history. "Fix what we have before we try anything new." If that were history's prevailing choice, we'd still be living in huts because huts aren't "perfect" yet.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 04:39:07 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on July 26, 2022, 03:35:35 amAnd why is this not happening, it is also in our DNA. At least most of the people on this planet have a huge drive to reproduce. Only due to education and becoming more aware this is going down. And at some point with a low enough number of people on the planet it might even be sustainable.Quote from: IDEngineer on July 26, 2022, 03:35:35 amAnd why should we do BOTH when this means a quicker downfall of what is here on earth? It will take a lot of valuable resources to do what you suggest. And why, just to spread our so called greatness? As I wrote before, only a few people are truly amazing, the rest are just average or plane old idiots. And the latter are the ones shouting the loudest of how great "we" are.Another question could be what is the point of it all. Seek the true meaning of life. Is there an actual purpose to it all. And with that I'm not talking about humanity alone, I'm talking about the whole universe. Sure it is there, but why and what is the use of it.Quote from: IDEngineer on July 26, 2022, 03:39:46 amTo me that is utter bullshit. Technological advancement would have been there with or without the space race, because like you said, that is also human nature. And here in lies the whole problem, human nature. Like james_s wrote, we work hard to destroy what we love, and that would also happen on those moon, mars, or even further out bases, long before we can reach a planet where it is possible to do what we did here on earth.And the supply chain dunkemhigh wrote about will dry up before any of those further out bases are able to become self sustained, if that is even possible.It is called realism, not nay saying.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 05:18:09 am
content: The amount of resources required to establish a permanent moon base are a drop in the bucket compared to normal industrial activity.And all we need is some basic manufacturing equipment to get things going. The more we investigate, the more raw materials we keep finding on the moon. Even water - the single most precious substance - is there in ice form. Meanwhile, the sun loses no potency due to atmosphere and provides boundless energy both thermally and (via solar cells) electrically. We might want the first base at a pole so the sunlight is more or less continuous, but as it happens the poles also harbor a greater abundance of water ice.With a basic manufacturing infrastructure, we can bootstrap our way up. We do not need to "steal" continuous resources from the earth, they're already on the moon.I often wonder if those who oppose space exploration are simply jealous that their pet projects here on earth don't inspire the same imagination in their fellow humans. There certainly is no logic in opposing space due to "resources" or "spreading our problems to other worlds". Such opposition borders on religious overzealousness, bred by frustration that others do not share the same goals. Heck, even Carl Sagan had such an antagonist in his book (and later movie) "Contact".Thankfully, history shows that there are always individuals with the foresight to see past those with shorter vision. I just wish governments would stop (ahem) wasting resources on all the petty social nonsense and, as in decades and millenia past, focus more attention on the future. That future would arrive all the sooner, and quite likely bring with it solutions to many of the problems that the short-vision folks shout about today. Just think about all the advancements in materials sciences, fabrication, electronics, medicine, environmental processing and cleanup (space requires VERY good recycling!), etc. that spun off from the space race. Without that kick in the pants, those advancements could have been delayed decades - or longer.Fine, let's say that space by itself isn't worth the investment. But the spinoffsdefinitelyare. There is zero chance those separate spinoffs will "occur anyway" without a primary motivating project driving them forward. The two main such motivators are 1) war and 2) space. I'd much prefer a vigorous space program to another world war. If you're worried about wasting resources, review the war materiel consumed in WW1 and/or WW2 and get back to us... not to mention the price in human blood and suffering. Space is a bargain by comparison in every criterion.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 06:04:16 am
content: I see your point, but you only mention war and space as motivators for innovation.I'm not saying that we should not innovate, I'm saying lets use our capabilities to solve our earthly problems. And what I read from your post is that you believe that setting up a base on the moon and use what resources are there is the way to go.Does this also mean that you think it is going to benefit the population on earth by bringing these moon resources back down?I just don't see the real benefits of it, but that is my vision.Well I myself don't have pet projects, nor am I religious. I just don't see the human race as something special, but again that is my vision.But I agree with you that if it is a choice between war and space, I would also choose space.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 09:51:48 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on July 26, 2022, 03:39:46 amDoesn't seem to have done Microsoft any harm!