Battery life issue makes Gatwick drone story seem implausible to me. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 03:03:23 am
content: Are there any photos in the media of this thing?

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 03:12:22 am
content: Getting to any truth at this stage isn't likely but it is certainly multiple flights.Times for off the shelf drones can be in the order of 30 minutes without any problems and hacking them to carry more batteries to double that isn't hard as most have a reasonable excess lift available. Build a custom one and how long would you like to fly for up to maybe a couple of hours max for a quad platform using batteries.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 03:21:07 am
content: It also seems implausible to me that they do not have the equipment to send another drone up there with for example, a fishing net. Here in the US various anti-drone systems are sold to weathy people to shoot down drones over their property and Ive seen reviews, they are very effective. Simply tossing a fishing net onto one with another drone, would work, or shooting them with a shotgun would be effective.Is there any chance this is a fake story concocted up to push some other important event or story out of the media?Quote from: beanflying on December 21, 2018, 03:12:22 am

author: tsman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 03:29:29 am
content: Quote from: cdev on December 21, 2018, 03:21:07 amNot sure Gatwick airport or the police have that sort of equipment. I've never heard of the police having any of that. The general police force here aren't anywhere near the cutting edge for technology :p They're mainly following it around at the moment and trying to find who is operating it. They're pondering again about shooting it with a shotgun.I wouldn't entirely be surprised all of this coverage has encouraged copycats to start trolling. Whoever is operating it is definitely aware that they're doing something they shouldn't. They've said that the drone(s) reappears shortly after they start preparations to reopen the airport so the operator is keeping an eye on what is happening and sending it back up.Quote from: cdev on December 21, 2018, 03:21:07 amNot that I know of. The other main story is negotiations regarding the Brexit deals but that is a trainwreck that everybody already knows about.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 03:31:09 am
content: Unlikely to be faked to many independent people have seen it (unlike the moon landings of course).As I put in the other thread it is an 'aircraft' and in the US it is the same shooting down an Aircraft you need to have a very good reason. Causing a nuisance isn't that reason, public endangerment is. If it was flown low enough bean bags and ground based nets are possible with minimal chance of it going wrong. Aerial nets sorry but I call BS at this stage and are all about get some $$ from the military spend.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 04:31:44 am
content: Net gun if you can get close enough would be best bet, invented and commonly used here in NZ for live deer capture from helicopter back in the 60s and 70s.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 04:38:24 am
content: You would have as much or more chance downing the drone in the downwash from the rotor on the Helicopter. It would be country specific but there is a possible issue with manned aircraft to UAV separation to overcome. It might seem like a cop out to some but a some of the 'near misses' reported around the world have actually been caused by full sized aviation doing the wrong thing.Dumb ass Full Sized Helicopter endangering Surfers ordered in to protect video rights recently. The full sized helicopter was in clear breach of USA FAA regs. Yes the downwash dunked the quad.https://youtu.be/RleCpgbUCGw

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 04:47:24 am
content: An explanation! These drones are "industrial".#GatwickDrones | The #drone image in our previous tweets was used for illustrative purposes only and not the devices being sought. It is believed that the #Gatwick devices used are of an industrial specification. We are continuing to search for the operators

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 04:50:28 am
content: Quote from: tsman on December 21, 2018, 03:29:29 amHardly! Here is a good example: Do British people know this about the WTO rules and NHS?http://www.policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National_Office_Pubs/putting_health_first.pdf(Edit: Looks like my hunch is right, I just read some Brexit news about some Brits losing health care.)

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 04:59:29 am
content: Quote from: cdev on December 21, 2018, 04:47:24 amWow they saw the control board and electronics from a few hundred meters away to make that one up did theyLets wait and see an Arduino based home made drone put together from bits sourced on evilbay in the end.

author: radioactive
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 05:22:39 am
content: Saw something earlier about the military being involved in the search. Wouldn't they be able to pick someone up with IR vision pretty quick?

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 05:32:05 am
content: Apart from the drone motors getting to maybe 50C and nearly or totally invisible to commercial radar the pilot could be 3-5km or even a lot more away in a shed or factory with an open roller door. Or take a look at the satellite image on foot sitting behind a hedge in a paddock.https://www.google.com/maps/@51.1589884,-0.1804983,7678m/data=!3m1!1e3

author: radioactive
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 05:47:59 am
content: QuoteGood point. So if it is a remote pilot, then back to cdev's point about battery life. Have they reported the total flight time of the quadcopter? It is a bizarre story for sure.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 06:04:18 am
content: My figures on battery life are above. It's an unknown in this case but my speculation is 30 minutes at 60km/hr.So if you take a maximum of 10km of travel @ 60km/hr to and from allow a bit of a safety leaves 15 minutes of PITA time on site.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 08:14:52 am
content: I can't imagine any conventional firearm shooting it down, this is reality and not Sniper Elite 4. Though I've yet to see any video or picture of this drone, or any mention of flying height or distance from the runways.EDIT: picture and video of the drone here:https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6517401/How-police-destroy-Gatwick-drone-misery.html

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 08:18:35 am
content: There is a second thread running herehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/drones-close-gatwick-airport/

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 08:24:20 am
content: Quote from: cdev on December 21, 2018, 03:21:07 amIt can be noted that the OP believes "the build up of mercury pollution in the environment is the worst thing about burning coal".https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/my-country-is-going-to-commit-economic-suicide/msg2056312/#msg2056312Are there any problems known about CO2 emissions?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 08:31:49 am
content: It is very clear that one or more drones were seen very occasionally - take off, buzz the tower, land. News reports mention a dozen or so sightings.The longer you're flying , the more chance it will be spotted and tracked to its landing place by helicopter.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 08:54:43 am
content: Quote from: cdev on December 21, 2018, 03:21:07 amGatwick is a large area and the drones are apparently only in the air for a few seconds at a time so it's like whack a mole, nigh impossible to predict where it'll be, how long it'll be up, etc and if the operator(s) is moving around that just makes it so much more difficult.It's an odd coincidence that the figurehead of Britain First was arrested at Gatwick for breachin bail earlier this week and if it turns out one of their idiots has done this they've really screwed the pooch.Reports from a reliable friend who lives on the periphery of the airport also suggest it's more than a simple prank and that there's more going on than just some dick with a drone.There is more to this than some idiot who thinks its fun but it's not a government conspiracy.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 09:01:36 am
content: Mmm BREXIT not going well for any side at present pick your team that wants different news headlines for a while? Everyone into their Tin Foil hats and earth bunkers in the backyard .....At least we have kept the same PM for more than a month

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 09:15:10 am
content: The other issue for the tower is, that its really hard to spot a drone over a distance of about 100m, still they likely would have it if it was a DJI flavor drone using wifi control. most airports already use wifi positioning of people in the terminal, so if one or more nodes saw an unknown network that corresponded, they could really lock down there options,If its an RF link. gets a little bit harder. but with a days worth of flybys, I would imagine they would have called in multiple people to triangulate it. sure the drone is much noisier, but the command frequencies are pretty quiet at an airport.I know sydneys airport has people like this on call, and apparently a few ground crew who are HAM operators, As I've heard of them catching a few trucks that had GPS jammers fitted by the drivers.And finally if its a GPRS link, then the perp will really be stuffed, do some correlation of the data and he will be found.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 09:19:48 am
content: Quote from: Rerouter on December 21, 2018, 09:15:10 amIf they're smart enough to do that, they will probably be smart enough to have used untraceble SIMs and phones/modems and destroyed them afterwards.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 09:41:04 am
content: more, that sourcing the sims, and the 50-100 meter triangulation they can pull these days can narrow down there search area and suspects considerably.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 09:43:51 am
content: Quote from: Rerouter on December 21, 2018, 09:41:04 amExcept the pilot could be anywhere in the world.Your country may vary but here you can go into a shop and buy SIMs anonymously.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 10:04:08 am
content: Generally the systems don't use GPRS for control. The DJI based stuff really only needs phone data to download maps (can be done by normal wifi too) then allow or disallow flights as part of their flight app and generally clag things up. PITA but not of concern here.Open source project here for an idea on non commercial drone open source options and hardware, surface, aerial and waterhttp://ardupilot.org/Frequency or frequencies can be whatever you like if you know how (illegally). Generally 2.4 or 5.8 gets used in most countries. Generally Quads will have a video link and some telemetry back to the Transmitter.Not sure of the tracking options in this part of the fairly crowded spectrum in urban areas but if it is set up to channel hop like some of the conventional R/C stuff it would make it that bit harder.

author: Drewbie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 11:24:55 am
content: Multiple quadcopters, no pilot or external control. No transmitters, just a GPS receiver. Preprogrammed flight plans/launch times and then hidden close to the airfield, possible weeks beforehand.Wait until they do it in multiple airfields in multiple countries all at once - economically devastating.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 11:45:08 am
content: so the media has time/space to report an alleged, but not photographed?? drone event at a secure area covered in camera's,but no time/space to report the treasonous signing of the u.n. global migration pact this week??and why is UKIP so silent on this??

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 11:58:12 am
content: And it's not like the now many GPS options and new ones being launched at present can be jammed or stopped easily either in particular as more and more rely on them for safety of various sorts (including planes).There is talk already about widespread adoption of the DJI tracking system as a defacto standard for other Drone manufacturers to follow so no tracking no flying or this limit here. It still doesn't stop home brew solutions and never will as the current code and electronics out there already can do all of this and more. Just means more BS for the Recreational and Commercial fliers to deal with.Will be interesting if they try and foolishly impose a lockout type of system on the general R/C plane community as there is currently no Geo Fencing type of system in place. I still have some gear on 29 and 36 Meg which couldn't handle it regardless.Frustrating for all of us fliers

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 12:00:25 pm
content: Quote from: stj on December 21, 2018, 11:45:08 amAnd the reason to drag you personal politics into this? Go make a Tin Foil Hat and write some propaganda on toilet paper then use it.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 01:18:32 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on December 21, 2018, 03:21:07 amI'm not in the UK, but I went to a very interesting talk recently by an Australian Federal agency specifically on drones. One of the points they made with regards to use of drones in these sorts of situations is any government authority is completely hamstrung by the regulations, while the people they are pursuing completely ignore them. I would hazard a guess that the plod in the UK are similarly constrained.So deploying an anti-drone drone requires some Vogon like bureaucratic process while the drone in question flies off into the sunset. It makes it hard.WRT to US anti-drone ammunition. I've been watching that for years now, and while I can see it'd be quite effective, it'd also leave fucking great holes in whatever it landed on. Physics being physics and all. People probably wouldn't like being hit with a ball of depleted uranium at speed. It'd make a mess that'd be quite hard to clean up (metaphorically and literally).We have a similar issue here with aerial support for bush fires. Loony dickheads with RC aircraft (drones included) have gone up for a "look around" and completely grounded effective fire support for hours while they waited for the airspace to be declared clear. There was legislation mooted to allow the emergency services to "neutralize the threat", but I'm not sure it ever amounted to anything.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 01:40:08 pm
content: In Australia UAV's (Drones) are 'Aircraft' and as I think I put in the other thread you can't randomly shoot them down or take them out of the sky without cause, this is there for very good reason as doing it wrong poses more risk generally than letting them fly and land.While we have legal separation of Airspace between UAV's and Manned Aviation and apart from peanuts in both camps it works well. There is specific exclusion from flying around declared emergency sites which covers UAV's and has some prohibitions on manned flights for bushfires, accidents, rescues etc but idiots are out there.Overall our Regs work fairly well as CASA takes input from all sides including a very long term relationship with the local Model Aircraft Association (MAAA) and all aviation special interest groups. They tend not to take a knee jerk response to things like this but we will need to wait and see.No level of regulation will stop a determined human or group from doing the wrong thing.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 01:49:28 pm
content: Hey what about training some big bird of prey to atttack the drone? Surely they would be the best protection and much more effective and easily deployable. I've seen birds used to scare away flocks, and also attacking drones just because they were in their territory. Surely someone who is a professional bird trainer could set up a reward system to program a bird response to attack a drone in a safe matter without itself getting injured (especially a large bird). I've seen these birds do incredible things, like capture foxes to help people hunt... they sit there calmly waiting for their human companion to arrive and will not eat it. If it can take down a fox running at top speed, I can't see why the bird couldn't knock the drone out of the sky. If the operator is not within direct line of vision they wouldn't really be able to counter maneuver easily (say if it is some GPS controlled flight plan). If the drone is being watched then they may be able to more easily apprehend the operator.By the way, a great movie:

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 02:08:50 pm
content: Birds of Prey Attack from the top claws out into 4+ high speed most likely carbon fiber in the case of this drone Talon slicer dicers isn't going to end well. Not to mention the instant hit with PETA and any other Animal Group on the planet.BOP's have taken out smaller drones and plenty of R/C planes over time and it has resulted in more than one Death where the talons don't release from the airframe.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 02:51:05 pm
content: And here in NYC area, the morning temperature outside, 60 degrees today.Some bulbs (flowers) and other spring growth are already coming up, leaves bright green.There are even insects flying about.I saw a squirrel outside, looking nervous.Happy Summer Solstice, Australians & Kiwis !

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 12:32:44 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on December 21, 2018, 12:00:25 pmi will ignore your verbal diarea, it's probably caused by all the earthquakes recently.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 12:37:44 am
content: Quote from: stj on December 22, 2018, 12:32:44 amWow oh dear I am just so hurtThe only Earthquake I get is caused by excessively laughing at the Damage Brexit and idiots behind it are doing.Just to help out you with a little Geography the 'Earthquake' Mild Tremor for most is to me what an 'Earthquake' in Sicily or further away would be to you.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 12:38:14 am
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on December 21, 2018, 08:14:52 amBullets go up and then they come down. Usually at a high enough velocity to kill people. Happens every year around the 4th of July.As to flying around Gatwick, why would the drone need an operator? GPS and a route plan is all it would take. It could fly unaided until the battery level reached some point and then head home. It would be easy to build the electronics for such a thing.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 12:45:59 am
content: This is the problem with having multiple threadsYou don't necessarily need an operator now and route planning exists on a lot of commercially available Drones as does a hack to disable the DJI geofencing. No programming or PhD and could be done by a bunch of 16 year olds with Daddy's credit card for giggles.If you want to reuse the drone and not be found you need an undercover launch and landing area which might play up with GPS lock so an operator or at least a video feed to one makes it more reliable for reuse. To avoid getting nabbed while doing either of these the operator could be km's away from it.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 12:48:39 am
content: In other news, it appears that Brits living outside the UK are going to lose health coverage. That may be the real driver of the story.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 01:00:50 am
content: Jeez, talk about high-jacking threads with an unrelated topic that isn't even tangentially connected to electronics. In other words, you should be in someone else's forum.The fact that it's your own thread actually makes it worse, making it appear that your own topic isn't worth pursuing.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 01:07:25 am
content: Why else might the UK government want so very badly to push the real news out of the media?

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 01:48:13 am
content: Really is time for me to make a new one.