Learning Electronics via Apprenticeship - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 07:33:18 am
content: I'm curious to know what people think of the idea of people learning electronics via apprenticeship as opposed to through academia.

author: hedgewallace
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 08:16:24 am
content: Here in Australia, an apprenticeship would be good for getting a full time job strait afterwoods. It's pretty much learn as you work.There isn't many electronics apprenticeships here. It's mainly electricians.Through an apprenticeship you will also get money as you learn.If you get into an electronic course, they may teach you the same, or even more than an apprenticeship. You will also have to do exams, and all that sort of stuff.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 08:23:14 am
content: When I left school (many, many, many years ago) and wanted to get into electronics, rather than choose a 5 (?) year, poorly paid apprenticeship, I opted to join the armed services (RAAF) as an adult trainee getting full time training and a much better wage.Down side is that you're committed to the service for a fixed number of years (6 in my case) which is a problem if you find out that service life is not for you.This was as a technician and not an engineer so the training was heavily oriented towards troubleshooting and repair.

author: miceuz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 08:24:13 am
content: I believe in Apprenticeship in general. Especially for "hands on" stuff.From what I saw in my industry (software developement) - a programmer straight from the university is near to useless. We've "developed" a couple of really brilliant programmers in our company over course of 10 years thru pair programming, code review and constantly maintaining of the discourse about "proper system architecture".That said, when I'm back to my country after this detour, I'm planning going to (almost) the only "the" guy in my city who does audio amplifier (talking about guitar amps) repair and design and presenting myself as an apprencite to him. I've heard from him, there is noone who does this audio maintenance anymore and I want to switch from programming enterprise software systems to doing electronics and NOT working in a company.That said, I think apprenticeship is the _only_ way to learn how to do all this complicated stuff nowdays, university education is ok, but it's only hands-on experience that matters - you can't teach this formally, it's irrational, implicit knowledge thing that asks for old school methods to transfer it.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 08:28:31 am
content: need two tracks in academia.research and production/whatevernameresearch, obviously as the name implies, for doctoral level researchproduction for people who want to deal with the real world, ie bachelorsI think the problem is that one degree is trying to cover both sides, and failing at it. a jack of all trades tends to not be at best, average, in all those trades.edit: also, not obvious: I agree with the apprenticeship idea, but it still needs to be backed by the 3-4 years of post-secondary

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 06:29:15 pm
content: That is what I did, though the current system has discontinued it and has nothing to replace it, they are still " looking at options" and " consulting with industry" and the current crop are getting older and the teachers are vanishing.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 06:39:39 pm
content: I've started working at 5. semester. I cannot imagine myself working and not getting payed. So in general, no apprenticeship is not really an option. What we need is to be able to get Msc or Phd while working, without the almost useless theoretical stuff unis provide, or even going there.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 10:15:27 pm
content: IMHO universities offer too much theory anyway. You'd need to follow a more hands-on course first and not go to a university directly.Being an apprentice doesn't offer much chance on getting further. An apprenticeship is intended to put theory to practice and not to learn the theory. The best way to improve yourself is to built projects in your spare time. Preferably a project which is too ambitious and never gets finishedLearning from failing puts your feet on the ground.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 10:51:40 pm
content: Who offers a formal apprenticeship in electronics anyway?Usually apprenticeships are associated with some form of formal course as well, usually done part time outside of work, or they give you day off a week to work on it or whatever.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 11:04:53 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on November 04, 2013, 06:39:39 pmapprentices are paid here. something like .5/.6/.7/.8 of "fully qualified" tradesmen, for years 1/2/3/4 of their apprenticeship here

author: chicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 11:27:33 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 04, 2013, 10:51:40 pmVery common for many engineering trades in German speaking countries (Germany, Switzerland, Austria), e.g. this position at a Swiss defense manufacturer:http://www.ruag.com/de/Konzern/Karriere/Berufsbildung/Lehrstellenangebot/Elektroniker_CHIn Switzerland it's a 4 year apprenticeship. Typically the first 2 years are mostly at a school, with a day or two per week of practical work at the employer. In later years school is scaled down for more hands-on work. After completion of the apprenticeship, it's possible to change to university or technical college to top it of with a BS equivalent degree.

author: chicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 11:35:16 pm
content: Here's a more detailed description of such a program:http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.berufsbildungscenter.ch%2Fschueler%2Flehrberuf-elektronik%2Fedit: switched to Google for more accurate translation

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2013, 09:24:19 am
content: In the UK it used to be that an apprentice would study for an ONC and then an HNC (ordinary then higher national certificate).These I understand have now been replaced by NVQs. I've known plenty of technicians that have done excellent work after going down this route and a few that have progressed to real design work, though rarely at the cutting edge of design. Some have even done an MSc afterwards and one of them is probably the best engineer I've worked with. I think that industry is often missing a trick in not using technicians more fully, and not supporting the training of as many.When I started my career at one of the many Marconi companies there was a large training school, perhaps 20 apprentices a year helped on with Government training grants. Day or block release to the local technical college provided the theory. Hands on skills were taught in the training school and reinforced by working in different departments round the company. It used to be the standard set up in any large company but I've not seen it happen for a long time.

author: Whuffo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2013, 12:50:10 pm
content: Theory and math are essential for an EE - you won't be able to do the work without them. The way to gain this knowledge is in college. And after you're all stuffed full of that theoretical knowledge, it's great to spend some quality time with a mentor; an older engineer who can fill you in on the practical details.If you just go with apprenticeship, you'll probably never get the theory and math training.

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2013, 01:00:04 pm
content: I tend to disagree somewhat wrt to the mathematical background. I found many of my math lectures in university were a waste of both the lecturer's and the students' time. A better approach imho would be self and/or group study with tutorials to help people along with the stuff they don't get.Most good math texts are self explanatory and contain pretty much the same thing as a lecture.I'm not suggesting scuttling undergrad math altogether, but I do think there are viable alternatives.

author: miceuz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2013, 03:28:30 pm
content: Quote from: madshaman on November 05, 2013, 01:00:04 pmI've studied in the Faculty of Mathematics and Informatics, because of this I had almost all of hardcore math - not just application side, but proofs of all of it. Forgot it immediately after each exam. Now I got interested into electronics, feedback loops, control theory and DSP -- man, I'm learning the math again and I just love it - it's so cool when you know how to apply it. Maybe it's somewhat easier for me because I've seen it from the hardcore side, but from application standpoint it makes so much sense!

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2013, 04:27:19 pm
content: Quote from: miceuz on November 05, 2013, 03:28:30 pmI'm by far not an expert in mathematics, especially now, but computing and Information science was also pretty math heavy; especially proofs (a goodly portion of my exam questions were proofs). I agree that having a good foundation in many different types of math makes it a *lot* easier to pick up new branches. Part of this I'm sure is simply familiarity (which reduces fear). I remember my friend quickly teaching me clifford algebra over beer so I could understand how quaternions could be used for slerping (as opposed to using them blindly); not that I remember it now ;-)I'm also learning control theory as I'm utterly and totally enamored with analog.I was lucky to have gotten into high speed computer graphics before machines had ridiculous processing power (even before GPUs) so I got to apply a lot of linear algebra and vector calculus as part of my day to day routine. I find application really solidifies one's knowledge.I really love how electronics lets you apply math to the physical world in a more direct way than software engineering.Honestly though, I truly believe that in general, the reason most people find mathematics difficult is because they're told (implicitly or explicitly) that it *is* difficult.I wish that would change.Also, strange notations look intimidating at first until you become comfortable with the fact that all you're ever doing is performing typographical manipulations of symbols according to strict rules.

author: lowimpedance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2013, 12:28:05 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 04, 2013, 10:51:40 pm30 years ago I went straight out of school into an electronics apprenticeship at a large company, (now long gone!!). Doing a course as well was standard practice for ALL apprentices, this also applied to all other areas of industry.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2013, 11:33:15 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on November 04, 2013, 06:29:15 pmSounds just like Oz!They love those buzzwords!

author: sprocket
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2013, 12:15:56 pm
content: I guess it depends on where you live.Here in Denmark the electronics apprenticeship is a certified and goverment controlled education, which means that whatever odd company just can’t start up a "course" for employees and then call them engineers or whatever.When I took that education some 10 years ago, it was required with combined trade school education with specific curriculums coupled with practical work where you were hired for you electronics apprenticeship. Obviously the quality of the practical part would vary depending where you got hired.Some use most of the time setting up satellite dishes and such crap and a few lucky few like myself where in the army where I dealt with anything from simple hands-on-stuff to complicated HF/VHF radio systems, UAV systems, Radar systems and other stuff like that.If you are more in to the practical side of things then electronics apprenticeship might be a good idea, depending on how the education is put together, prober theory education, certifications, and examinations and so on and so forth.A prober university engineering master degree tends to be very theory based and math very. I have seen plenty of engineers who know the math but haven’t got a clue how to use a solder iron. It’s rare that I have come across the Dave Jones type of engineers who actually knows theory AND practical applications.In my case I took the certified electronics mechanic education, spent a good few years in the army working on various high tech stuff, when I quit the army I took a intermediate university degree equivalent to a bachelor in electronics engineering. So in my case I got both a more hands approach but also the ability to do the more complex development engineering.

author: Setar2k11
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2013, 01:12:30 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on November 05, 2013, 09:24:19 amNo, the ONC, HNC and HND are still very much the way to do an electronics apprenticeship, i have just recently completed my HND and wasn't required to have any NVQ's.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2013, 05:58:34 pm
content: Quote from: sprocket on November 06, 2013, 12:15:56 pmBecause that's what technicians are for. My employer would be angry if the expensive engineers would spend extensive time soldering.(Before you ask, I can solder, but don't do anything beyond few second soldering jobs in the job)

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2013, 06:12:30 pm
content: Quote from: Setar2k11 on November 06, 2013, 01:12:30 pmI'm glad that they are still happening, though a little sad that it's not in the numbers that it used to be.As far as soldering, I can do as good a job as most technicians, but it takes me far longer and I'm costing the company more per hour anyway, therefore it makes sense for the tech to do as much as possible. Occasionally, when I want a pyramid of components building onto a couple of pads I'll do it myself as that's quicker than explaining my bodge.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2013, 08:32:12 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on November 06, 2013, 05:58:34 pmMakes sense from a corporate POV given the wage differences.But the practical side as part of their education makes for a better engineer IMHO (due to reduced mentoring, as those that were best suited to do it were made redundant years ago).

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2013, 10:07:35 pm
content: Quote from: madshaman on November 05, 2013, 04:27:19 pmI never understood why so much time is wasted on this.It has been proven. i'll take your word for it. Why do we keep doing this over and over ? it is a pure wast of time.10 million students every years spend 1 hour of their life proving some simple equation. that is 10 million lost man hours. that 10 million man hours could have designed the next big thing ...What is the bloody point in proving something that has been proven ?Same thing with maths teachers that write complicated equation on the board and you have to figure out the derivative of it. What's that equation for ? "oh it doesn't do anything. it's just a puzzle"Hey bozo , i'm here to learn something , not to pass my time solving puzzles. At least give me an existing equation, explain me what it's for. At least that is useful and i may need that equation later on in my career.I got in an argument with my maths teacher about that. One of the questions : take a rectangular sheet of metal. we are going to bend a gutter. figure out the optimum bend points so the largest volume of water can pass. i wrote down : bend it in an infinite amount of corners as to form a semi-cylinder.And i flunked. I couldn't figure it out. It was perfectly correct ! He didn't say i could only use one or two bends. When he gave the solution to make a U shaped gutter i called foul: you forgot to reserve some room to form the lip on the outsides. How are you going to mount it ? and i was promptly shown the door.If he's going to be nitpicking my answer i will be nitpicking his. he was wrong on both occasions. Theoretical maths teachers. completely useless.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2013, 01:22:41 am
content: In order to master something you need to practise a lot. Wax-on wax-off. Being able to use math quickly takes a lot of practise and insight.For example its a very meaningful exercise to derive the equation for the maximum slewrate of a sine wave for a given frequency and amplitude. You can do all kinds of interesting things with that equation like determining the required slewrate for an amplifier or determine the maximum clock jitter you can tolerate in a data acquisition system. Ofcourse you could look those formulas up on internet and use them blindly but you'll get stuck when something doesn't work as expected. Just filling in formulas only gets you so far.I can solve most of the math problems I encounter with the books 'modern engineering mathematics' and 'advanced modern engineering mathematics'. These books cover every math subject I ever encountered in school but I regret not paying more attention to math when I was still studying.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2013, 01:35:45 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on November 06, 2013, 10:07:35 pmYou learn to do stuff like this because sometimes, even in the real world, you're working on time/life critical applications and your customer wants to know stuff like:1) what's the worst time performance we can expect?2) what's the reliability of the system?and to answer these questions, you need to be able to trace through and give SOLID, no BS, answers. You need to be able to do things like prove that your calculations, spread out over multiple processors, performing complex, fixed point math, may LOCALLY saturate, but if the input is within a certain bound, the finally answer will always be accurate to so many places.Of course, if you're making web pages or things like that, much of this may not matter, but there are plenty of us that depend on the "useless" theoretical stuff we learned in college, grad school and on the job. There's a bunch more of use that end up working with actual things that move, stretch, and otherwise change their properties, and to understand THEIR behavior you need a solid foundation in calculus.And most engineers don't know any of the above, and that's why it's so hard for some companies to hire, and why the engineers that really know what they're doing command a premium.

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2013, 07:05:37 am
content: re proofs:1) To be fair to my profs, most of the proofs on my exams were original problems (albeit contrived), normally we'd be given some mathematical system and asked to determine and/or prove some identities with regards to it.2) It is *somewhat* unfair to fill an exam with proofs; much of the time inspiration or insight is required to see the path for the proof; intuition is definitely involved. I liken solving mathematical puzzles to practising life and death problem in the game "go", and liken reworking existing proofs to playing through game records, both develop intuition by a somewhat mysterious process. That being said, wrt engineering, I much prefer real-world problems for this kind of practice; problems I actually need to solve.3) I disagree with any instructor who will not accept alternate solutions to the problems they pose; especially when what's required is ambiguous. I would always call the proctor over and have them fetch the prof if I felt an exam question was ambiguous. Studying English was even worse as I found I had to tailor my writing style to coincide with the preferences and expectations of the prof or TA in order to get decent marks. There's a lot of value in a formal education but some of the time it really is a stupid game.

author: owiecc
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2013, 08:16:13 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on November 06, 2013, 10:07:35 pmThis is done to make you understand problems. Imagine someone asks at the exam: proove that the gain of this opamp circuit is R2/R1+R3/R1. If you can prove it this means that you know how opamps work and with a big probability you will be able to explain any other opamp circuit. There is no way of memorizing the answer (unless you have to prove a really easy circuit). Students have to learn. If they don't know how opamps work they will fail.If the exam question would be: "what is the gain of inverting opamp" (someone did it already and we know the equation) students can memorize the structure and remember that is -R2/R1. They do not need to know how the circuit works. If they don't need to learn they won't. They will pass the exam. Everyone yells: universities produce low quality students, they don't know anything.The same applies to math courses. If you can prove some equation you probably know math very deeply. And this is what math courses are about. Teaching you math. Not telling you about math.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2013, 01:33:55 pm
content: Quote from: madshaman on November 04, 2013, 07:33:18 amIn Australia,back in the day,there were many more Apprenticeships,Traineeships,Open Exams,etc,all of which were aimed at turning out Electronics workers,be they Tradesmen,Technician,Technical officer,or whatever.What these had in common was learning Electronic Theory,albeit not at Degree level.Experience was also an important part of these qualifications,but by itself was not sufficient.Most of these have disappeared,with the current emphasis on "Outcomes",where you go to a Tafe,or other training organisation & learn to do a number of specific things.Unlike the old training methods,this doesn't produce people with a knowledge of fundamentals,who can "turn their hand to anything".In the past,it was fairly hard for the average "school leaver" to just go off to Uni---they had to earn a living,& an Apprenticeship,did pay a wage,if a lousy one.Many Techs went to Uni as "mature age" students ,got their EE Degree,& were some of the best Engineers around.If you asked them if it was a good idea to spend twice as long to get their Degree,compared to more fortunate students,they would almost certainly tell you to go to Uninow,& get your "hands-on" experience later!

author: envisionelec
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2013, 03:14:05 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on November 06, 2013, 10:07:35 pmI can't stop laughing.