New mid-level hobby lab recommendations? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 09:53:24 am
content: I'm planing to setup a new lab at home since my previous is still boxed up and put in storage in the other side of the world. Since I have a decent budget for this I'm shooting for some mid-level stuffs,nothing too fancy but still not the cheapest available.Admittedly I splurging more than just a bit on the 3d-printer, but life is too short to mess around with things like that - I just want it to work good and give nice consistent results straight out of the box - and my wife wan't to use it as well therefore allowing for a bit of extra cost there ;-)So far I've come up with this for the major stuffs:$1100 Rigol DP832A Lab power suppy$1200 Saleae Pro16 Logic analyzer$1000 Siglent SDS1204X-E Oscilloscope$600 Metcal MFR-1100 soldering station$80 Toolcraft ZD-8908 Hotair desoldering station$280 Amscope x10-20 Stereo microscope$70 Two AN8008 multimeters$200 Peak LCR40 & DCA55 LCR- and Semi-testers$120 ST-LINK/V2-ISOL$330 MPLAB ICD-4$180 Atmel-ICE$2400 Zortrax M200 3D-printerWhat I'm currently haven't figured out yet is a decent bench DMM, and a signal generator where I'm really just interested in squarewave up to abouts 80-100MHz so a fancy AWG is not really neccessary.Do you guys have any recommendations for the bench DMM and a sig-gen? And any revisions to the other things?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 10:44:00 am
content: If the Rigol lab supply costs $1100 then I'd bite the bullet and buy the Keysight E36313A to get a bit more accuracy and the low current measurement.You could combine the Salea pro-logic into and oscilloscope into an MSO. For example the GW Instek MSO2204E which can be bought with an internal function generator as well. If you need real logic analysis then you might be better of buying a used Tektronix or Agilent logic analyser. These machines are the real deal and yet cost next to nothing. Still you'd be able to do 99% of the logic analysis tasks with the MSO anyway.My choice for a simple bench DMM would still be the VC8145. I've got two and they just work. I only pull out my Keysight 6.5 digit bench DMM when I need higher accuracy.80 to 100MHz square wave is a tougher nut to crack. What kind of amplitude do you need? If you really only need square wave then an ADF4351 module might be an option because that outputs a square wave.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 10:57:09 am
content: Do not spend $1200 on the saleae logic analyzer, get the Zeroplus instead for around $200. It can decode over 100 protocols. If you work with parallel buses, then I like the Agilent 1670G logic analyzer with 136 channels, 2 Msamples. It is also priced at around $200 - $300 on eBay.I sold my Rigol power supply and purchased 2 vintage HP 2 and 3 output power supplies with analog gauges. If you need to measure the current over time, then you can get the OWON B41T+ DMM that has bluetooth and using the iphone or android app, you can use the datalogging function.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 11:17:34 am
content: I bought the Rigol DP832 for our school lab and I am pretty mad about the fact that this POS has to go to warranty repair because channel 1 would not handle 1W continuous load.Go for a decent quality used PSU from one of the good brands.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 11:42:05 am
content: Quote from: matseng on May 14, 2018, 09:53:24 amI have not idea what phase noise, stability, slew rates.... you need but normally when I hear 100MHz squarewaves, I am thinking digital. I will use a low phase noise RF generator connected to what ever driver I am needing.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 12:09:57 pm
content: @matsengYou're a prime candidate to put together a package and go to your Siglent distributor and ask them to seriously sharpen their pencil for:SPD3303X or X-E 3ch PSUSDM3055 or 3065X bench DMMSDG6022X 200 MHz AWG (80 MHz squarewave)I'd be holding back on a LA until you find what the SDS1204X-E can do for you, maybe add the 16ch LA option ?If it was me supplying you, 4 units is something to really take note of.Anyways, just take a look at them as they may well fit the bill of what you're looking for.Best of luck with your decisions and that new lab.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 01:04:45 pm
content: You probably want to go for the Rigol DP832 (Non A) instead, same thing minus color screen but also much cheaper.Im also not sure if the Saleae Logic analyzer is worth it. Its probably a good idea to just get a cheap $30 clone that works with the Salae software.As for the waveform generator there things tend to get expensive for the sort of frequencies. There are the Hantek ones that are cheap but they are buggy as heck. I ended up getting a old Tektronix AWG with 1GS/s rate off ebay.Bench DMM i like my Keithley 2015 that i also scored cheap on ebay. It gets you 6.5 digits and very quick update rates.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 01:13:11 pm
content: Quote from: TK on May 14, 2018, 10:57:09 amIs your advice to buy the Zeroplus purely based on the protocol count?

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 02:32:12 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on May 14, 2018, 01:13:11 pmI think the saleae is not worth $1200. I tried both the saleae (first generation) and the Zeroplus. Saleae software is much easier to use, but not worth the extra cost. Saleae (1st generation) did not have in device capture memory. The Zeroplus captures in the device and then transfers to the PC. The new generation saleae has analog channels, but it is not a true oscilloscope. It captures and displays static waveforms.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 02:47:00 pm
content: With the Saleae i found the fact that it has no sample memory a good thing.Sure its low sample rate gets a bit lacking at clock speeds above 25MHz, but even at that speed it covers most protocols you might come across. But since it uses your PC as storage and does compression means that your sample buffer is basically infinite. This is sometimes quite convenient where you can just capture a few seconds of activity and then look trough it with the convenience of a proper mouse UI. Or you can dump the serial decode data into a CSV spreadsheet and look trough it that way. You can't just turn minutes of continuous serial bus activity into a CSV file without gaps on other sample memory based logic analyzers.For when i need the speed i can always use the digital channels on my scope. The scope works great when i want to have a fast live view of the data, but moving trough it all even with segmented memory is a bit of a pain so i prefer it on simple protocols. Also if the bus is really really fast then i have to resort to analog channels with active probes anyway, this is for watching things like LVDS, HDMI, MIPI etc.

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 04:10:24 pm
content: @nctnicoThe E36313A for sure looks nice, but bought locally here in Sweden it would set me back about $2100 - that's almost exactly double the price of the already expensive Rigol DP832A.The MSO-2204EA (with the AWG option) is also about $2100 for me here. And as you say that would cover both the Siglent scope and the Saleae for a $100 less total cost. The Instek scope looks nice with its separate buttons per channel and a slightly larger screen. I'd better watch/read some reviews of that scope first before deciding.The VC8145 looks good enough, I'll see if I can pick one up locally. I've got a 6.5 digit Agilent 34401A in my storage from my old lab, but just as you I seldom actually used it, usually I just grabbed a handheld meter.Just as @joeqsmith guessed the square wave would be for general digital usage, so 1.8...5 volts so there's no super particular requirements of jitter. I guess the scope AWG plus with a cheap Chinese DDS module would cover my needs.@TK / @BerniI had a Saleae 8-bit standard clone and feel a bit guilty of not actually purchasing the original yet using their software. So maybe me now purchasing one is my way of doing atonement. ;-) The new Pro version is a small marvel of engineering and got good performance in a small package - but is quite expensive with it's >$1000 after taxes. The pro version now got live updates and in capture mode it does quite a bit more than 25 Msamples/s. With up to 12 channels it does 250M and 13..16 channels gives 120M.Currently I'm not looking for ebay/second hand units. Most of my old lab was ebay'd and I really had no issues with any of the purchases and all the devices was in good shape and worked just fine. But it took a while to find what I wanted for decent prices...@TautechYes, it might be a good idea to check if there can be a good deal made if I get a full package from the Siglent dealer. Can never hurt to see if there's any room for negos in the quote.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 04:57:08 pm
content: I mostly meant the 16bit Saleae logic and that can run at up to 100 MS/s if you use a small number of channels so its sufficient for looking at buses that run up to clock speeds of 25MHz to make sure you have a few points per clock cycle. The old 8bit one with its slow speed can only handle serial buses up to 5MHz reliably.Not saying the new fancy Saleae logic ones aren't nice, just that its a lot of cost for how much use it would likely get in a well equipped lab like this while doing modern work. A scope is more useful than those built in analog channels, since in modern electronics its rare to need more than the 4 channels of a scope anyway due to most things are serial these days. The ones that are still parallel are not really that vital to fully decode such as a 24bit RGB video bus, DDR memory bus etc. Its back in the 80s and 90s when lots of things had 8bit and 16bit microprocessors with external memory and peripherals, there a large channel count logic analyzer was very useful in debugging. The single area that i found the need for logic analyzers these days is FPGAs where you bring out a large number internal signals to your pins in order to see whats going on inside, mainly due to how difficult these things are to debug outside of a simulator.Also don't forget to set a good deal of budget aside for all the little things that make life easier in a lab. Things like a wide selection of cables for all the gear, good hand tools (Screwdrivers, cutters, pliers, strippers etc), Soldering aid tools, Kits of passives, Component sorting and storage, Prototyping boards and adapters, Dev board for micros, various consumables etc. None of it is particularly expensive but all together it can cost well past a grand. Goes up even quicker if you have RF test gear.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 05:09:29 pm
content: Quote from: matseng on May 14, 2018, 04:10:24 pmTrue but you have to ask yourself if you really need the programmability and other bells and whistles. The second power supply on my list was the GW Instek GPE-3323. Not because it is GW Instek but it is relatively cheap and it does offer 1mA current readback resolution. I found myself using external DMMs to measure voltage and current on the power supplies I already owned because their readout just isn't accurate. Because of that a PSU with accurate readout was high on my wish list.QuoteOver two years ago I did a review of the GDS2204E (the version without MSO and function generator).https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-gds2204e-(200mhz-4-channel-dso)-review/msg855862/#msg855862. The GW Instek 2000E series runs the same firmware for all models (GDS, MDO and MSO). Overall GW Instek tests their firmware better and they fix problems quicker compared to Rigol and Siglent. IMHO that is worth the extra money especially when buying a model which was introduced relatively recent.

author: Leiothrix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 10:42:00 pm
content: For a power supply I'd recommend the Siglent SPD3303X-E at ~550AUD. I chose this over the Rigol purely because it's physically smaller. Siglent is 278mm deep versus 418mm for the Rigol.For logic analyser get a CY7C68013A board. ~10AUD from aliexpress, banggood, etc; and use it with sigrok/pulseview. 16 channels and is more than enough for my needs.This is assuming you want this for hobby purposes; you haven't actually said what you want this stuff for.

author: CustomEngineerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2018, 01:51:27 am
content: Quote from: Berni on May 14, 2018, 01:04:45 pmAgree with this, there is essentially no benefit of getting the DP832A vs DP832, other than a minor UI difference (of which most people seem to prefer the non-A version of the UI anyways).

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2018, 02:50:15 am
content: QuoteI imagine you could find a fairly low phase noise RF generator for a reasonable price and make you own driver boards. This link you can see a LVDS board I put together to drive an inexpensive FPGA evaluation board. The 100MHz won't be a problem. Good luck with your new lab.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/typical-speed-of-fpgas/msg1279544/#msg1279544

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2018, 08:44:34 am
content: Quote from: CustomEngineerer on May 15, 2018, 01:51:27 amThough with a budget of over $1000 there are much more interesting options than that Rigol POS.For that amount of money you can buy a whole stack of trusty HP / Agilent / ... PSUs from the small adds and be set for the rest of your career.If you want to buy new gear, there are various options from Keysight and others, like the BK Precision 9130B.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2018, 10:15:41 am
content: Used HP/Agilent 6632B 20V 5A DC power supply is about 150 euros and comes with RS232 and GPIB, works also as a DC Load and has low range DC current measurement resolution of 0,1uA(5Amp range is also more accurate than most of the DVM's)

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 15, 2018, 10:35:11 am
content: I'm not sure what "ST-LINK/V2-ISOL" is, but I bought SWD-debugger for like $6.Power supply and logic analyzer of you choice are very expensive, imho. Be sure it's worth it. I'd invest saved money into a "real" DMM. May be a second-hand one.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2018, 10:40:27 am
content: Quote from: exe on May 15, 2018, 10:35:11 amIt's the official STM programmer. It's isolated too.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 15, 2018, 10:58:38 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on May 15, 2018, 10:40:27 amGood point. There are low-speed usb isolators for ~$10, but I don't know how good are they.

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2018, 01:31:31 pm
content: As a follow up here - this is what I actually purchased so far. I made some changes in my preferences...I saved on the PSU & LA and threw that money and some more on the oscilloscope and microscope instead.Rigol DP832A Lab power suppy --> Konrad KA3005DSaleae Pro16 Logic analyzer --> Chinese 8 channel cheap cloneSiglent SDS1204X-E Oscilloscope --> R&S RTB2004Metcal MFR-1100 soldering station --> sameToolcraft ZD-8908 Hotair desoldering station --> Atten 858DAmscope x10-20 Stereo microscope --> Amscope 7X-45X Trinocular Zoom Double Arm BoomTwo AN8008 multimeters --> Single AN8008Peak LCR40 & DCA55 LCR- and Semi-testers --> none yetST-LINK/V2-ISOL --> sameMPLAB ICD-4 --> sameAtmel-ICE --> sameZortrax M200 3D-printer --> same