Distributors are so thick nowadays - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2020, 02:36:36 pm
content: This problem started some years ago and is getting worse.I have just sent a kit RFQ to a few of the big distis e.g. Future, Avnet, etc. On it are some items like25k (5 reels) 10k resistor 0805 1%None can find it!"Our system can work only with part numbers"The problem is that this kind of part can be anywhere from 0.7p to maybe 10p, according to how dumb the buyer is. And with everybody and their dog making resistors, the P/N which is the right price and is in stock changes every time you buy.The good old days of Macro Marketing and their smart girlsThat was almost 30 years ago and it's been doing downhill since.I can buy them from Mouser, which has a very good website, but Mouser pricing is about 2x that of proper distis, so it's good only for prototyping, small batches, or filling in urgent shortages.How can one have a huge electronic disti and not have one single person who knows what a resistor is?

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2020, 02:50:53 pm
content: Its not that they don't know what a resistor is or that they can't find it. It's just (most likely) that they refuse to accept potential liability in case they pick something that you don't consider optimal and would not choose yourself. Give them a specific part number and they will be happy to fulfill your order.The company I work for is in similar situation. Often we get people call on the phone to order an item and they describe them in words. The thing is, while we may know exactly what they are talking about, there are other very similar items available and we just don't want the hassle of them saying that whatever we picked is not what they wanted. Give us a catalog number and you'll get it, but saying the "blue one" is not nearly specific enough for our taste, even though there may be only one blue thing that would fit their description.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2020, 03:37:52 pm
content: What Domagoj T saidThere used to be a time, where one could pick a resistor with basically three parameters: Resistance value, tolerance and wattage. Perhaps the composition type if one was really picky.Nowadays, to take Digikey as an example, in addition to the three main parameters, there are many more: Thru hole or SMT, package size and/or type, features like sulfur resistance, humidity resistance, flame proof, high voltage withstanding, AEC-Q200 or other qualifications, pulse withstanding, non-inductive, non-magnetic, temperature coefficient, etc.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2020, 04:18:40 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on May 21, 2020, 02:36:36 pmThey have - a person called Account ManagerOnce you spent $$$, very likely you will be have one who can help you to find parts and suggestions.I'm really surprised that you got any response from your RFQ, just type ""Our system can work only with part numbers" and send reply back, almost wiped their decent profit that they can make on these 5 reels, I'm not saying on a time looking for matching parts...

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2020, 04:29:07 pm
content: Quote from: Domagoj T on May 21, 2020, 02:50:53 pmYes, it's often because customers have themselves become even thicker than distributors!

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2020, 04:41:22 pm
content: Quote from: olkipukki on May 21, 2020, 04:18:40 pmThis, with one other factor. "Some time ago" you were a new face, one that potentially would grow into a big account. So you may have received big account treatment to help capture future sales. Now you have established what you actually are and are not worth the special treatment. Or perhaps more accurately, you get better treatment than the really small fish. You got a reply requesting part numbers.

author: tboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2020, 04:44:19 pm
content: .

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2020, 05:34:14 pm
content: I know of no other industry that has so many parts! Absolutely brutal to pick parts nowadays.I spend hours wading through distributor websites, datasheets and weighing cost, put it in the BOM and after all that- Supply Chain says "meh our main supplier does not carry that make", or "it's potentially high lead-times" etc.Digikey has only 13 different 10k 1% 0805 reels, and with 22.6M pcs in stock, the Yageo wins.Mouser has ~60 different 10k 1% 0805 reels, and with 1.2M pcs in stock, the Vishay wins because I prefer their engineering and quality.But people who give no part numbers to the distributors... nobody wants to stick out their neck filling in a part number, only to later hear screams of "that part won't work! Your fault!". It's very hard for average admin staff to understand all of a part's parameters.Distributor account managers know their stuff but why spend their time filling in part numbers for small fish that will likely not buy.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2020, 05:49:14 pm
content: Choosing components is one of the most basic parts of doing the design work.Asking a parts distributor to choose parts for your circuit is completely equivalent to requiring they draw the schematic and do the layout for you. It's impossible.Yes, some parts are trivial to choose and replace; it's still impossible to outsource that part of job to theparts distributor, they don't have the information available to do that work.What you need is someone you can outsource your design work to, someone who understands the complete design process.Some assemblers can substitute very generic parts without part numbers, but that is in their business model, they have the required information to do so.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2020, 06:41:34 pm
content: Quote from: Domagoj T on May 21, 2020, 02:50:53 pmQuote from: floobydust on May 21, 2020, 05:34:14 pmNot sure what markets and products do you mean, but in B2B world have quotes/pro-formas and T&Cs at least, and nobody in right mind will do anything without prior-check and confirmationsQuote from: Domagoj T on May 21, 2020, 02:50:53 pmIf you have clients who can call you and say probably that "blue" and you know, but not telling this is "blue" part no, I want to know what are you doing (selling), happy to take over and look after these "customers"** except B2C's who scream if X size T-shirt doesn't fit and they want money "back NOW"

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2020, 07:27:03 pm
content: Quote from: olkipukki on May 21, 2020, 06:41:34 pmSince you ask...I work at a model railroad museum/exhibition and we have a small shop that specializes in model railroad stuff, including the rolling stock. Example from the other day: A returning customer calls, asks if his previous order has come in. The answer is "Not yet", so he asks if we have two K wagons in stock and if not to order them for him.If you're not a railroad fan, you may not know what a K wagon is, and that is perfectly fine. It's a simple two axle flatbed wagon that used to be extremely common in 1950's and 1960s. But that is it. That is all the narrowing down that the term K wagon implies. In real world there are (were) countless subtypes of that configuration that were used by probably every railroad company in the world, each a bit different than the other. In model railroading world, things are even more complicated since on top of real world companies, there are model making companies, multiplying the number of choices. On top of that, in real rail world there is something called revision, which is a mandatory periodic check of the rolling stock, accompanied by new markings and potentially physical changes. Manufacturers of model railroad rolling stock take this into consideration and often produce the same wagon, but from multiple different revisions, of course as separate catalog numbers.For this particular customer, I know that he collects models made by a certain manufacturer, I can even make an educated guess as to what real world railroad company markings he would like on his model, and know that he doesn't particularly care about revisions (some modelers are quite anal about that stuff), so I could pick something for him specifically.With all that being said, I can't possibly know the catalog number for that wagon. We are a distributor for about 20 manufacturers, each having thousands of products. If we don't have that on a shelf (or even if I don't find it with a cursory glance), I have to take a look at the computer to see if we have it, and if not order it. For either of those I need the catalog number, and to find that out I would need to actually go through the physical or digital catalog to find it. That takes time.But that is not nearly the worst type of the calls we get. It's not uncommon for people to ask: "Do you sell trains?", "Yes, we do." "Do you also sell wagons?", "Yes, we do." "How much do they cost?", "Anywhere from $10 to $250 for wagons, much more for special edition locomotives." "Oh, can I come and have a look?" "Yes, we are a shop."

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2020, 07:54:49 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on May 21, 2020, 05:34:14 pmYou areallmissing the point that this is anRFQnotan order. The liability element comes when you get the quotation back and check what parts have been offered against your specification; if you accept the RFQ as the basis for an order you are signing off that part XYZ-RQ-12-89-X is an acceptable supply for "10k resistor 0805 1%" then you, as customer, accept liability for that choice.Liability as an excuse for distributors wanting to have their cake and eat it - i.e. take a profit margin on the parts but add no value beyond warehousing the parts - is just laziness and rent-seeking. If the distributor adds no value and leaves you to do all the work then you have no reason not to bypass them the microsecond you have an order that is big enough to go straight to the manufacturer with. So when the distie goes out of business they have only themselves to blame - they have given their customers no reason to keep them in existence.Look at it from the manufacturers point of view too. If a distributor adds no value and every little query or request for support comes back to the manufacturer instead of going to an FAE at a distie, what point is there to the manufacturers handing a slice of their margin over to the disties if they are having to shoulder all the support costs themselves? Note how many of the manufacturers are making it much easier to order directly e.g. Texas's recent reshuffle of their disties.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2020, 02:13:06 pm
content: Cerebus is spot on.The "liability issue" is irrelevant anyway (as noted above for an RFQ) but for an item which is a de facto commodity, dirt cheap, common as muck??I have a quote in just now for the resistors, at 0.2p. That's "cheap" but the right price for these is 0.07 to 0.1p, in say 100k total order qty.How come with Mouser I can type inresistor 0805 1% 10kand via this search URLhttps://www.mouser.co.uk/Search/Refine?Keyword=resistor+0805+1%25+10kget the results. There are 13 there now. Look at the price range. 1:20? Yageo are pretty good, so the big distis lose out.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2020, 03:25:23 pm
content: Quote from: Domagoj T on May 21, 2020, 07:27:03 pmIt looks like you are providing a bespoke B2C-like customer service, known your customer well and doing extra mile in a niche area - that's great!That's probably same experienced 30 years ago by peter-h.Obviously, you have a choice to:- ignore them;- explain same what you did above and expect they will look into a catalog for part no after that;- or just say "let me have a look and I will come back to you", right?Now imaginate, you are running almost exlusive and common toys distribution where railroad modelling is just 0.5% of your business, and instead of 20 manufacturers - you are dealing with 2000++. Would you provide same service as now?Quote from: Domagoj T on May 21, 2020, 07:27:03 pm..and they come to a shop, you spend time to show them around and explain difference between all scales and gauges?!Honestly, I don't see any issues here either for a proper business or random-guy from a street.Do you expect they come to your store with a list of part numbers and cash in hands?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2020, 03:27:32 pm
content: So just for fun, I checked here and Mouser has 5 reels available of Vishay CRCW080510K0FKEAC for $125 for your whole order. They also have TE CRGCQ0805F10K at $100, but not 'in stock', which likely means a few days or so delay. BTW, your search method showed 13 results and not the Vishay, while using the menus and so forth gave me 282 candidates. The menus also give you the opportunity to review all of the other parameters which apparently don't matter in your application.Now you are saying you have a RFQ response at £50 for your order but you think the 'right price' would be as low as £17.50. How much profit do you think the distributor will make on your £17.50 order and how on earth do you think they can justify having an account rep respond to your inquiry?

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2020, 03:29:10 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on May 22, 2020, 02:13:06 pmThe right place would be half of thatMy rule of thumb for passive: 1 reel Digi/Mouser for same 3 reels somewhere else

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2020, 05:12:22 pm
content: Quote from: olkipukki on May 22, 2020, 03:25:23 pmFor new customers we go through the different options.Returning customers that are in the hobby and not buying for somebody else usually know the situation and come with the catalog numbers. There are very few exceptions, but of course we try to accommodate their quirks.Quote from: olkipukki on May 22, 2020, 03:25:23 pmProbably not. This works because, I would presume, our margins are larger than the ones electronics distributors have, especially when dealing with individuals that consider a full reel of resistors to be a big order (I should know, I'm one of those).Quote from: olkipukki on May 22, 2020, 03:25:23 pmOf course. On occasion we go much further than that, and help them design their layout, point out errors in their plans, give advice on equipment needed etc.Quote from: olkipukki on May 22, 2020, 03:25:23 pmI suppose the difference is the scale. If a customer occupies me for an hour just to end up buying $10 worth of merchandise, I'd be a bit cross. On the other side, if they end up spending thousands, they are more than welcome to come back any time.Quote from: olkipukki on May 22, 2020, 03:25:23 pmWhile I don't expect them to do so, I appreciate it when they do. It does happen regularly with some of the returning customers. They walk through the door, I recognize them, grab their previous order from storage, run it through the register, they do the payment thing and give me a piece of paper with their next order. 5 minutes in and out. Thank you and come again!

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2020, 06:44:02 pm
content: Summing up:OP expecting Champagne service on a beer budget.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 02:38:03 pm
content: Not really; I am expecting a huge firm to have somebody in there who knows the difference between a resistor and a chocolate bar.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 06:29:18 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on May 28, 2020, 02:38:03 pmThey do. They just don’t wanna do your work for you.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 07:20:08 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on May 21, 2020, 07:54:49 pmSo then why don't you use an RFQ system ? Like octopart or icfinder ? upload your partslist and it will suggest you parts, prices,stock quantities and suppliers.click through and place orders.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 08:28:28 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on May 28, 2020, 07:20:08 pmWhy don't I? Because it's notmethat wants to place RFQs, it's Peter.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 08:33:54 pm
content: This is one of the things that confuses me about my current employer.I am asked to complete BOMs with specific part numbers, rather than a generic classification. This has led me to get calls from the purchasing department along the lines of, "We can't buy 123-456 any more, it's a disaster and we need 25,000 by tomorrow." That turns out to be a 0805 100nF capacitor of which there are hundreds of possible substitutions, with large orders like that being available next day but then I find out we've been paying 300 euros for a reel of parts because they've been marked obsolete and we can only get them from greymarket source X. Sometimes the components are really not critical.No doubt this has cost us plenty of money too, given these components fluctuate in price and the cheapest supplier will vary as time goes by. I don't know if there's a "generic" catalogue of components, where you can say, use "Generic_0805_100nF_X5R" as a part number and any reasonable part is selected, but I'd love to find out.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 09:04:28 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on May 28, 2020, 08:33:54 pmI often see that high-frequency part specify a list of "approved" capacitors with required ESR and ESL. Using a different part may cause problems. May that's why they want to have specific components?That can also be the case with precision circuits.Afaik, rigol 1054z suffered from using wrong components in PLL, and that caused jitter (apart from layout mistakes). Or that was another oscilloscope...

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 11:06:23 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on May 28, 2020, 08:33:54 pmI don't know why your company does this, but mine did and I still received fairly frequent calls from the purchasing department along the lines of: The transistor you specified costs $16 dollars and I can get this transistor for just a couple of cents. Transistors are transistors aren't they. The part was very high power for its time in a custom package that allowed the product to have a unique form factor and had difficult environmental and reliability requirements. The suggested replacement was a plastic 2n2907 kind of floor sweeping.It is not just the distributors who have people that are not qualified to pick parts. Now the question that really matters is would the company have save money through paying your salary to review all of the purchase orders and check for lower price parts.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 01:29:09 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on May 28, 2020, 08:33:54 pmI see that as well, but in our case is to simply consolidate purchases across different business units. I still feel the need feom time to time to re-check my designs for redundancies and off parts.Quote from: exe on May 28, 2020, 09:04:28 pmYou are thinking about project Yaigol on the DS2000 series.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 06:28:38 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on May 28, 2020, 08:33:54 pmseems like you need a supply chain team ...

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 07:43:46 am
content: Quote from: exe on May 28, 2020, 09:04:28 pmIf it was an RF part sure, but most of these parts aren't RF components, they're general purpose decoupling or filter parts. We're talking about 50MHz microcontrollers here, the components are generally not too critical.I think the funniest call I had from the purchasing department was that a "cost optimisation analysis" had been performed on one of our products. They suggested that we omit the most expensive part on this product, which was the STM32 microcontroller, to save money on making every board. Sure, you can try and build the board without that but good luck.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 09:51:28 am
content: In my youth, I worked in a small hardware store, in the days where nothing was prepacked etc.We could spend 30+ mins on a customer wanting to look at 15 different sized screws, then they eventually buy 10 individual screws for about 7 pence.My boss would later have a polite go at me saying I shouldn’t waste so much time on customers that are only going to be spending a few pence, other customers are waiting to be served, customers with money to spend....My initial argument was, the guy who got great service when he spent 7 pence, would likely chose us first when he wanted something more expensive. But with very few exceptions, my boss was totally right, the customers that spent 30 mins of my time spending a few pence because they hadn’t a clue what size screw they needed, came back week after week expecting me to open every box for them so they could again spend just a few pence.Ok no internet, but books galore showed the various screw sizes, they could easily have worked out what size they needed in advance (or at least narrowed it down to two or three choices)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 11:12:05 am
content: Quote from: HobGoblyn on May 29, 2020, 09:51:28 amI'd like to counter that I often test the waters before making a big purchase with a small purchase, to see how a company handles customers and service. Sometimes it's just a request for information. While I don't doubt that there are plenty of people you'll never make money on, only putting effort in the whales is a mistake. I need to know I can count on a decent treatment after spending a large chunk of cash.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 12:45:11 pm
content: If I am placing an order for say 200k resistors, 50k (10 reels) each of 4 values, the disti should be able to find the P/Ns.Normally, nowadays, in fact right now, it is Yageo, but in a few months' time it might be another name. If you get the wrong P/N, or last year's favourite P/N, you could pay 10x more.These distis will not help you even if you wanted to buy 1 million resistors.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 03:26:58 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on May 29, 2020, 12:45:11 pmIt was not uncommon for customers to have the AVL or "Approved Vendor List" of second and third source parts that was given to the assembly house and carefully crafted with the help of a distributor. However, to get a real customer service, the volumes were horrendously high and the BOM was closed with a single distributor. The high volume off quotes could be followed by a call from the FAE to inquire about the design you were running that requires such high part count - the customers that didn't want to share this information got a corresponding service and pricing; the ones that opened the door got much better service.BTW, I don't disagree with your assertive that the distributor should be able to find the P/Ns but, with the shrinking market on the distribution business, their personnel are probably stretched thin.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 04:39:36 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on May 29, 2020, 12:45:11 pmThat's not relevant without another parameter - $In your case, less than <$1K in total for whole order.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 05:00:32 pm
content: 10 reels each of 4 values is 40 reels , at 5 to 6% areel .. that's 240$ .. and you wonder why they don;t respond. picking up the phone and listening to you just ate their profit margin .

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 02:29:50 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on May 21, 2020, 07:54:49 pmNot quite. On a few occasions I have sent a preliminary BOM to Supplychain/Procurement/Purchasing for RFQ to get pricing on the build.Because parts can have long lead-times, I find out later that the Manufacturing manager ordered all the parts on the BOMeven though the product has not finished approvals and is months away from production. I'd signed-off on nothing.He's trying to cover his (procurement) ass and be ready to manufacture ASAP. Engineering does not control Purchasing.Another company I worked for, when the product was ready for production, Supplychain had ordered nothingand there were parts with many months lead-times on the BOM and they were caught with their pants down. Even worse, some parts such as RF modem modules, manufacturers demand your draw-down quantities and dates well in advance, along with a signed commitment to order that.I wish it was straightforward to get an RFQ but I find the politics around it are incredible because it involves a few departments and none of them are very competent.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 07:55:41 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on May 30, 2020, 02:29:50 amgo to octopart.com and plug in 1k 0805 1% and see what you get.you can plug entire BOM's in octopart and it will show you availability , princing and whatnot.

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 04:55:59 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 01, 2020, 07:55:41 pmGo to Octopart and plug in '0805 (pullup) - 10k <= resistance <=1M, thin or thick film, V >= 3.5V, pd >= 1mW, tolerance < 75%' and see what you get.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 02:18:19 pm
content: What surprised me yesterday is that they (Future in this case) don't even have a description on their system. Just the cryptic P/N. So no way to double check anything. One ends up googling for the description...

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 08:43:27 pm
content: Quote from: splin on June 02, 2020, 04:55:59 amwhy do you put terms like pullup in there ? the resistor doesnt care what it is used for.if you don;t care about thin or thick film : why mention it ?what is this voltage nonsense ? it's a resistor ( unless you are going for high voltage apps , but since it is 0805 that is also nonsense )and up to 75% tolerance .. what is that ?you are not searching or a part. you are machine gunning for a table. tha t is not a bill og material. you are feedin it garbage. of course you get garbage ...

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 09:26:08 pm
content: Yep, I get a fine parametric table with excellent filtering and sorting capabilities...