Millstoning  in Electronics? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 12:39:48 pm
content: HiWe all like to help youngsters along. Its satisfying to show someone the ropes, and then watch them going off on their own steam.Though has any engineer heard of "millstoning"?This is where a company decides it effectively wants to "clone" one of its senior engineers...so as to have more engineers.Very often, the "millstone" has little interest in the work, and does no extra work of their own, and is never likely to become a good engineer, but still gets "handcuffed" to a senior engineerso that the senior engineer can't do his/her own work. The millstone repeatedly asks the same question over and over again, and does no reading of their own, and runs no simulations.The millstone is instructed to "pull out the senior engineers brains and take them for themselves".Millstoning is rather odd in the SMPS world, because SMPS, is one of the few fields of electronics where anybody can learn it,because the simulator (eg LTspice) is free, and all the knowledge to get the jist of it is on the web.But some company owners , ususally the ones that dont understand engineering, insist on "millstoning", even though its not going to be in their interest...since in real terms, good engineers always end up being responsible for the bulk of their own learning themselves. Its just not possible for them to "copy another engineers brains".Often a company can pull in a government grant to develop some product....but instead just use the grant money to employ a "millstone" junior, and then handcuff the millstone to some senior engineer. There is no intention of producing the "product"...but just using the government grant money to "clone" the senior engineer via "millstoning". The senior engineer is "stood on his pride", and required to give tight deadline dates to the customer of the "product", .....but the company have no intention of actually letting the engineer work on the product, rather, they want the engineer to have his brains picked out whilst working on the product.......so the engineer is working on the product with a millstone round their neck, and isnt likely to complete the product anywhere near the deadline....more likely, the engineer will end up getting shamed for not meeting the deadline that they were forced to agree to.I saw "millstoning" at a big company once.....A senior EE had no time to do his own work and a rubbish product ended up being shipped, and the loss was approx 4 million dollars.Ive seen other millstoning going on.I was at one company where an EE was payed £40k/yr....and the HR girl told me that "another person" in the company was getting payed "40k" per year, for every year that the EE remained in the company...think of it what you will. Maybe when/if that EE got truly stuck in the place, then the "millstoning" would be then practiced on him?

author: pardo-bsso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 02:09:42 pm
content: Hey Treez,aren't you doing something quite similar here from time to time?Regards.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 02:38:12 pm
content: QuoteYou like that word. Enough to use it twelve times in a single post, anyway. But AFAIK it's not a common usage (and I would be mega-surprised if it were particularly relevant to SMPS), so I wonder if you've got a bet somewhere that you can get some obscure term to propagate around t'web.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 02:53:13 pm
content: FTTS is a millstoneMore interested in MILESTONES (or pioneers) in power electronics and electrical engineeringFaraday, Henry, Tesla, Steinmetz, Hansen,....great history and very interesting inventors....jon

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 03:07:22 pm
content: A bit like the old "ball and chain" metaphor.In Dutch there is a saying "als een molensteen om je nek" which yields the same. "Like a millstone around my neck". Means like carrying a heavy burden, which the premise in the original post seems to express.Doubt that companies will pay for something like this. Often apprenticeships are unpaid, at least back in my days.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 03:14:51 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on February 18, 2023, 12:39:48 pmFrom the eevblog millstone himself, except we don't get paid to put up with it.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 03:16:18 pm
content: QuoteYes, I know of the saying and the meaning. It's just not an industry term, though, which is what it looks likeTreFaringdon is making it out to be. I have heard people say something is like a millstone, and I might even have said that myself, but I've never heard of the term 'millstoning'.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 03:19:15 pm
content: How close is the relationship between treez/faringdon/ocset and the "senior EE" and the EE "payed £40k"? To coin a phrase "enquiring minds want to know". (Or maybe not)BTW, pcprogrammer has spotted the meaning of "millstoning", even though it is used in an odd way. Maybe people around him have frequently used that terminology.When I read the title, my presumption was that it would be about defects when soldering SMD components.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 03:30:31 pm
content: The answer to it is to refuse to do it. You are an engineer not a teacher.If the "new" engineer wants to learn then go to Uni like the rest of us did.I had a job where they kept trying to replace me but failed.They gave my job to someone else, then when that person failed they had the cheek to give me my job back !A few months later they did the same again so I left.2 days later I had their accountant knock on my door begging me to go back if they gave me a substantial raise.I did go back for a few months then found another job.3 months later they went bust.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 03:56:45 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 18, 2023, 03:19:15 pmNope. It is just due to the dutch expression that I made the link.I'm familiar with internship though. Had some when I worked in a lab in my second job. Most are just a pain in the but, but hey they don't get paid.Got the term wrong in my previous postQuote from: tggzzz on February 18, 2023, 03:19:15 pmI was wondering too what it was about. Read just a couple of lines and thought "Ah well it is yet another one of those"

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 04:15:18 pm
content: In the King James translation, Matthew 18:6"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."An example of English usage for millstones.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 04:22:00 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on February 18, 2023, 03:56:45 pmIt is called Tombstone effect, when SMT components lifted off on one side and stands vertically on the other pad like a tombstone on a grave.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 04:31:18 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on February 18, 2023, 03:56:45 pmBut it is a standard English idiom too, as TimFox noted. I wouldn't have spotted the Biblical reference, but it probably explains the common usage.QuoteI saw faringdon, presumed "another one", saw the title, hoped maybe not...And as Bud noted, tombstoning is the "correct" idiom for PCBs.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 04:46:44 pm
content: QuoteBut it could have been a new 'thing'. Perhaps accidentally soldered to an adjacent part, hence millstoning that.Seems unlikely he would know of an industry term than no-one else does, though.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 05:01:17 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 18, 2023, 04:46:44 pmFar too many technical neologisms are for invalid reasons, e.g.ignorance of the subject, leading to triumphant reinvention of an old concept with a new name. Especially w.r.t. softwaremarketing wank, which tries to make something known to be (sub)standard seem new and wonderful

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 05:09:37 pm
content: QuoteThanks, all the millstones i saw were Electronics graduates, even new Masters graduates, or even PhD's.QuoteQuoteThanks, but online Millstones can be ignored, unlike the real company Millstone, that the Company owner handcuffs to you.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 05:41:09 pm
content: What do you mean by Millstoning?Does it mean to roll one of these along?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 06:17:21 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 18, 2023, 02:38:12 pmYep. I can’t even find reference to this usage. Not in a dictionary, not on web searches… if it is an existing usage, it’s anextremelyobscure one.Not that it matters since the post itself is nonsense anyway.

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 06:19:22 pm
content: QuoteThanks,I have seen a senior SMPS designer get millstoned......then because he wasnt able to concentrate on his work....a power supply went into testing, and 4 million pounds worth of radio test data had to be scrapped as the SMPS went unstable.Millstoning, i assure you, is very real.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 06:25:27 pm
content: Developmental Milestones vs Millstoning in Electronics?ferret or ferrite ...do you want fries with that?when spell check is not working

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 06:30:58 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on February 18, 2023, 05:09:37 pmThat's very kind of you, thanks.I think what youaremight be referring to here [Edit: It's hard to tell from your warped perspective] is staff development, where a company grows its employees and gives them a career development path so that they don't have to use useless millstone contractors.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 06:39:13 pm
content: I have never heard of anyone attempting to clone a senior engineer by sticking them with a hopelessly uninterested junior one, sounds like a rather good way to end up with no senior engineer and just a useless junior.If you have a **keen** junior it can however be quite a good way to accelerate the year or so that it takes the newly minted to become useful to you, and is not that annoying, but they have to want it going in.While one does not always discover genius in the newly minted, and some of them don't last out the 6 months probation (Which is embarrassing, as it speaks poorly of your hiring practises), accidentally hiring the uninterested is a risk of doing business, especially if hiring straight from uni. Largely to catch this, I like to ask "Tell me about something you have built", the answers are revealing, sometimes in non obvious ways.I have had to spend some of my time asking searching questions of the junior engineers and apprentices in various sorts of design reviews, and pointing them at various literature, but that is actually part of what they pay the senior people to do, part of the job is to teach (Or should be at any sane company). There is usually no margin in sitting on what you know like some kind of broody dragon on a pile of gold, far better to spread the knowledge, you can always gather more.Now we did have 'That Guy' who got passed around the engineering shop like a hot potato as EVERYONE found him to be a hard of thinking, impossible to work with, oxygen thief, but as I say a risk you take (And everyone screws up hiring sometimes), he was gone after 6 months.Turns out when we fired him, that he admitted he just got so lucky with the interview questions exactly matching what he had read up on (And knew it) but the money was good while it lasted...

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 06:42:46 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on February 18, 2023, 03:30:31 pmOh come on, what fantasy world are you living in? University gives you the basics. You recruit graduates on the basis of potential and train them up to useful and productive engineers. Staff development is the price you pay for your company having a future.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 06:46:21 pm
content: I am sure such relationships exist. I strongly doubt that they are done for revenue enhancement, the situations where that will work are rare indeed.I would fall back to my belief that blaming something on incompetence is far more frequently correct than blaming on malice. Management that doesn't recognize that the junior employee isn't up to learning the job is common. Engineers with such poor people skills, communication skills and training skills that even a promising junior employee can't learn from them are unfortunately very common. As are middling competence engineers who don't really understand their jobs well and so can't explain it to someone else.Millstoning, whether done through malice or incompetence will not be common, because companies that practice much of it are not survivors.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 07:15:40 pm
content: I've seen a sort of equivalent of it called "cross-training", when people from different teams or responsibilities are assigned to learn from each other. This typically is done in attempts to create role backups, but rarely works. If you are not full time on something, everything you learnt from a colleauges from other areas will fade out fast.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 07:17:18 pm
content: Quote from: dmills on February 18, 2023, 06:39:13 pmAnd his name was "Faringdon"Oh no for him it was only a week before he leftSee

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 07:24:03 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 18, 2023, 06:17:21 pmI observed that "millstoning" is odd usage, but the noun "millstone" is part of an idiom in the UK and US. Prefixing a search with "define" seems to work, e.g.https://duckduckgo.com/?q=define+millstonegiveshttps://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/millstonehttps://www.thefreedictionary.com/millstoneQuoteColour me surprised.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 07:44:58 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 18, 2023, 07:24:03 pmI know. To call a burdensome thing a millstone is a known usage. But the verb “millstoning” I can’t find any reference to.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 07:47:52 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on February 18, 2023, 06:19:22 pmI don’t doubt that it has occurred that an engineer has been saddled with a useless underling.But I do doubt that it’s done deliberately for the reasons you claim, and that it’s got anything specifically to do with the SMPS industry.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 08:27:28 pm
content: I have nothing to contribute to the thread, I'm here just for getting the free "thanks"!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 08:27:54 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 18, 2023, 07:44:58 pmA modern truism is that "all nouns can be verbed". It is Saturday, therefore I dislike that.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 08:31:22 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on February 18, 2023, 06:42:46 pmNo no no.You wait for your competition to train them, and then poach them.Foolproof. Isn't it?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 08:32:51 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 18, 2023, 08:27:54 pmOf course. I’m not even saying it’s wrong to do so. All I’m saying is that the claimed particular idiomatic usage (of the verb supposedly meaning to burden a good employee with a bad one) is very specific and unknown.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 08:36:14 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on February 18, 2023, 07:17:18 pmOoh, that'spointedto the point.Just to make sure that doesn't get bigfoot22'ed, here's an archival copy...Quote from: Faringdon on October 28, 2022, 01:43:33 pm

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 08:49:33 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 18, 2023, 08:36:14 pmEh, it’s never been treez’ style to delete thing! They’ve always stood by their writings, loony as they may be…

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 09:16:49 pm
content: Sure the term is kinda dumb, but hey you never know how dumb all these HR terms can get anyway. We probably ain't seen nothing yet.But anyway, what the OP describes is a pretty common management technique.You can't blame companies for doing that. They need to secure their future and make sure the know-how is passed from senior engineers to junior ones.But management is a tricky business and it's often hard to do this in the best way possible, not annoying the heck out of seniors and making them feel like they do all the work with no recognition, while working themselves on being replaced. That's an uncomfortable position to be in and most managers don't know how to handle it. It's tricky.Add to the mix HR people that only see all this as written objectives and figures in Excel sheets, making managers' lives every bit as miserable as the senior engineers' lives that are subject to that.Of course some people actually like teaching others and passing their knowledge on, and these will be fine with it.Others do not.But ultimately, when you reach "senior" status in any company, it's usually time to reflect on what you want to do next and act on it. If you play it all passively, you'll get miserable, because getting senior as an employee doesn't mean you've reached your goals and can rest - it usually means you need to move on to something or somewhere else, otherwise it's a pretty sure path to misery.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 09:56:23 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 18, 2023, 08:31:22 pmThe good ones are going to want ongoing career and skills development, the others, you don't want. If you don't have a decent system in place they'll leave again, or never join you in the first place. Then you're stuck with hiring the ones with, oh must be 30'odd by now, companies on their CVs.It's a competitive world if you want the best.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 10:35:43 pm
content: In reference to grindstones, the best advice is: "illegitimi non corundum"

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 11:09:28 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on February 18, 2023, 09:56:23 pmI was lucky (but I think I biassed things in my favour) to mostly work for good companies on interesting topics.I'm not aware of having worked with anybody with so many companies on their CV, unless they were contractors. In the latter case, I didn't care, but I did look at the companies and experience.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 06:18:23 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 18, 2023, 08:36:14 pmYou made a new verb on a SaturdayQuote from: tggzzz on February 18, 2023, 08:27:54 pmI stumbled on the deleting phenomenon only yesterday due to what was written in the last Sherlocked thread, and had a good laugh. It does proof how strange he is. bigfoot22 that is. I wonder why he blew up. Sure there was a some stab and counter stab going on between him and others, including me, but not that bad, was it?Sorry for going off topic, but hey nonsense thread anyway.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 08:12:56 am
content: One of my clients hired a fellow with a Masters Degree in electrical engineering. When he started he was clueless - a testament to degrees that didn't teach him much. The guy didn't even know how to do a Google search, let alone how a bloody diode worked. But he was a nice chap and I made time for him. I charge by the hour and the CEO was happy for me to take him under my wing, solving problems and doing their design work (hardware and firmware) whilst teaching him and providing plenty of advice along the way.Lo and behold! He has become a fairly competent engineer for his age and limited experience. He can now write code and understand how circuits work. He can also do research. He is now learning to use Altium.What's in it for me? Not the money as much as I mentored him and helped him. The CEO told me recently that he greatly appreciated the effort I put in to "get them out of trouble" and the help for that young bloke. A great compliment. Electronic stuff we created create over the years is here today, gone tomorrow - it is the nature of the beast. What's the point of retiring or dropping dead when you have left no legacy from your work, other than maybe a few building blocks? The most important legacy from a career might be those you have influenced over the years.... and that includes helping out young inexperienced engineers.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 08:18:19 am
content: Quote from: tooki on February 18, 2023, 07:44:58 pmPerhaps he's filed a copyright on the term, and intends to start demanding royalties once everyone gets used to using it

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 09:49:19 am
content: I've been both the junior and the senior in that kind of mentoring/millstoning situation myself.As far as I can tell, there are only two cases when mentoring turns into millstoning:The junior is uninterested or incapable of learning from the seniorThe senior is uninterested or incapable of mentoring the juniorI've met both types, and they cannot be helped. Such a junior is not employable in that job (so only employable if they have sufficient skill and experience to do some other job), and the senior can only be employed for tasks where they are easily replaceable.Either one of them can be the proverbial millstone. It is noteworthy that seniors who refuse to mentor juniors (typically because juniors will eventually take their jobs, and they want to maximize job security) areeasierto replace than the ones who are able to mentor juniors.(A third case is also possible: both are interested and capable, but their personalities clash too much for it to work. While social details can be overcome, things like work ethic and tool use and organization can be showstoppers. This case is for a capable manager to resolve.)Using a dead weight as a social tactic to keep a senior stuck at a certain task is detrimental to the company. Of course, that does not mean that sociopathic middle managers won't do it; but it does mean that when a Cxx-level executive does it, the owners of the company should be aware of the damage that does to the operations of the company. In many legislations, contracts between companies that keep an employee hobbled like that are quite illegal, too.The reason is that a company does not pay its employees to be there; it pays for the results of employees work. Hobbling that up, a company is only making sure they extract less useful work from that employee than they otherwise could.At the very thin spike at the top of the expertise hierarchy, we have people who may be employed simply because their knowhow is such that having them working for a competitor may be catastrophic to the company. The solution there is not social games either, but simply benefits, cold hard cash and well-written agreements both the company and the expert can agree to. A typical benefit in the software engineering world is paying them for 100% of their time, but letting them work on their own (often required to be free/libre projects, to avoid competing with the company, and specific subfields/software targets ruled out) for 10%-50% of the time.(Because the companies so often turn out to greatly benefit from such work nevertheless, it is becoming more and more common for companies to offer that extra time for use in ones own projects, for even "lesser" experts in their software fields.)As I am not an EE, I do not know whether similar practices exist in the electronics design field – YET. For certain, the amount of dedicated chips and even SMPS controllers is such that if I was the owner of such a company, I for sure would like my top designers to spend at least 10% of their work time on average experimenting with new chips and designs, just to make it more likely that they'll discover new, cheaper, more effective ways of using available stuff in the products the company designs. (There is also historical precedent across industries showing this is worth the expense for the company on the average.)Of course, nowadays the problem is that if an approach makes 5× the profit in a year, but there is an alternate approach that provides 1× the profit in this quarter, the this-quarter solution is always selected. Very few care about long term, and instead live and die quarter-by-quarter.)In Faringdon's case, I'd take a hard, objective look at the situation, and follow the money. It is extremely unlikely any corporate mill-stoning is taking place. If it indeed is happening, then it is much more likely that someone is defrauding the company, or making illegal agreements; similar to anticompetitive agreements among companies wrt. employee hiring practices. In all western countries, including the UK, there are government agencies who would be very, very interesting to hear the details if such agreements actually have been made. (This obviously includes the case where Faringdon is just reading the situation wrong; for example, misunderstanding a minor personality clash that can be overcome, as something more significant.)In the real world, especially here in the Finland, there is basically never such an agreement, and the junior just turns out to be a (close) relative of (a close friend of) someone higher up in the company hierarchy. Then, anonymously divulging the situation to owners/shareholders (if Cxx-level officers are involved), or to Cxx-level (if it is just middle-management that is using the company as their personal cash-cow), carefully but neutrally documenting the situation and especially the loss of productivity and the hit it will do on the company bottom line, is the best course of action in my opinion.(Others do recommend just taking your leave as fast as you can, but personally, I do get a kick out of making such exploiters essentially unemployable. It brings me joy, knowing that parasites failed to prosper. Others do volunteer work, I like to make life difficult for those who exploit others.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 12:26:10 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 19, 2023, 09:49:19 amA few more cases are possible, like havingbotha junior who is uninterested or incapable of learning from the senioranda senior who is uninterested or incapable of mentoring the junior. Of course, that’s a sign of wildly incompetent (or corrupt) management — I can’t imagine any scenario in which that combination of employees somehow improves!

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 12:55:44 pm
content: The word used in Finnish for this idiom more commonly than millstone, isriippakivi, by the way; the best translation to English in my opinion is "dead weight", but it literally translates to "weighing-down stone". Millstone is sort of old, so you can expect anyone over 30 to understand the reference, but even the young'uns will get "riippakivi".Quote from: tooki on February 19, 2023, 12:26:10 pmTrue, a stone mentoring a pebble how to get lodged in a shoeWhen a workplace gets that dysfunctional, better get the heck outta there. I've been in organizations where people just weren't fired, ever; when they were too much to handle, they were promoted sideways or upwards just so they'd annoy someone else instead, or otherwise socially pressured and gossiped about so that "they'd get the drift" and quit themselves. The real-world tales of ostensibly "corruption-free Finland" I could tell are pretty much unbelievable.Here in Finland, it is typical that when statistics show results embarrassing to decision-makers, the action taken is to stop making the statistics.D1: I've read so much about the dangers of alcohol, I've decided to stop.D2: Drinking, you mean?D1: No, reading.

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 03:02:47 pm
content: QuoteThanks i agree, but watch the poisonous reference you get when you do ship out.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 05:04:05 pm
content: when treez posts and the posse shows up

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 06:04:08 pm
content: Back in the day, millstones weretheway to travel. Nowadays, in this thread "millstoned" seems to be the way to ... travel?The notion that young fresh talent is better than experienced engineers is the usual HR and management mistake of not understanding knowledge workers.I've mentored a few EE's including one that was considering buy a soldering iron for home use. He'd never tinkered. Another two were on their cellphones texting all the time.The "gimme the answer" generation, from watching a lot of TV, Internet, video games, using google - they can't take the pain of not knowing something and having to figure it out.Let the company save money- hire cheaper, less experienced and then spend years doing product development with no results.

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 09:25:25 pm
content: QuoteThanks, years ago i had one that would do 5 mins of soldering, then revert to making a big solder pool lake on the ESD mat, or going on his mobile phone.But He was lauded as the new Messiah by the company owner.The owner could see him distrubing me all the time, but encouraged him to pick my brains out at every opportunity...my work inevitably suffered delays as a result of being his "servant" mentor, and the owner would lambast me for that....the millstone insisted on sitting on the lab table and making me work through him...but eg once he refused to twist his signal wires like i told him...so i then had to come in for 20 hours over the weeked (unpayed), and rebuild what he had done for a customer demo on Monday, as his board didnt work.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 10:38:05 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on February 19, 2023, 09:25:25 pmWhen you find yourself in situations like that, just run away. Whatever the reason - even if you are partially responsible, be it due to your behavior, not setting limits, whatever... this can't end well.When a company does that, it's usually to show you that you don't matter anymore. Get the hint and go.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 11:47:32 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 19, 2023, 10:38:05 pmI don't disagree, but that's not always possible. Classic issues are wife/children/parents who can't be uprooted, and geography of course.

author: robint
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2023, 09:00:35 am
content: cant say in my umpteen years in the trade I ve heard that term? Seems like a hypothesis IMHO.What I have seen seen is some cheap charlie hirings using the milk round, where a dozen say bodies are trawled to fill slots fully expecting to get a wastage of 50% in the first years - the smart guys realise they signed up to a dead outfit full of pensionable treadwaters obstructing any initiative. Been there got out pdq.Ive also seen these uninspiring remainders (NAAFI types) who just slither along on minimum effort other that cosy relations with superiors. Amazing how far up the tree these slugs can climb in time.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2023, 09:06:37 am
content: Quote from: robint on February 20, 2023, 09:00:35 amThat seems like the GEC/Marconi milk round behaviour, back in the 70s.Put in ~6 CVs, offered ~12 interviews (one implying the interview was a formality!), some at sites with 200 vacancies.Went to half a dozen interviews. They were useful because they enabled me to calibrate what I was looking for in a job, and which places would be good to work. Not GEC/Macaroni, of course.

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 11:38:28 am
content: At this one place, many years ago....they literally handcuffed a newly qualified engineer to me, and told me to go through a power supply design with him......and only advance the design at his pace of understanding and no faster, and also garantee to the customer that it could be done within 4 weeks from scratch to finished PCB and BOM and schem. It just wasnt working.The guy wasnt getting it, wasnt picking it up quick enough.I was bascially like his "slave" mentor.Has anybody else done this kind of thing?I think such "handcuffing" doesnt work in SMPS design.....SMPS design isnt "A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J, DONE"....its more"A,B,C,D, go back to A and tweak a bit, E, F, go back to C and tweak a bit, then to E and tweak there, G,H".............you know what i mean.It just not beneficial to try and handcuff a new grad to an engineer and hence clone the experienced engineer in this way.Has anybody else encountered this kind of thing?Literally trying to CLONE an EE by handcuffing a new grad to him/her

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 11:57:35 am
content: Quote from: Faringdon on February 22, 2023, 11:38:28 amWas it his left wrist to your right wrist, or vice versa?

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 11:59:25 am
content: Crikey we were virtually strapped to each other lasoo style.....i am surprised they didnt want him in the toilet with me.....it was literally..."we want to clone our EE"

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 12:15:00 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on February 22, 2023, 11:38:28 amLiterally? You were in prison? Otherwise that would be quiteillegal in most places in the Western world.Are you sure you did not just misunderstand the "at his pace of understanding and no faster" part?If the junior was present, managers often say things like that out of social pressure, without actually meaning it.The correct approach, in my opinion, is to calmly explain to the manager that those requirements are in conflict, and cannot be achieved at the same time, and ask for which comes first: customer deadline, or the junior's understanding.Now, to do this, this also requires social skills. Manipulative managers often say "both, just deal with it", because they already know the project will fail, and just need a scapegoat to blame and fire. For the same reason, they will refuse to give any such orders in writing, i.e. email or such. So, one needs to be able to provide a simple but useful argument when presented with such.It is crucial to report to ones manager immediately when you detect a conflict in your orders/directives, in email (so that you retain a verifiable copy of the mail), even if already discussed face-to-face (as a reminder of your understanding of their directives), warning them of the consequences if the conflict is not resolved. In your particular case, that the junior is so slow the four week deadline cannot be met.This requires clear and concise communications, one to three lines per order max. This can be achieved via practice. Find a friend, pick conflict situations, and do exercise emails to resolve the conflict. The target is always to 1) make sure the manager knows the effects of their decisions, and 2) that you have both that and the manager's order in writing.If the manager objects to such emails, tell themyourequire them to track priorities and orders, and start looking for a new job immediately.Managers who object to their orders being recorded are the ones who will throw you off the cliff whenever they feel it might benefit themselves.While many think of your (Faringdon's) posts as trolling due to their repeated themes, I think it has more to do with yourpersonality traits, specifically high agreeableness (and to a minor extent, neuroticism) –– these are personalitytraits, not flaws or faults! –– (and confrontation avoidance) which is somewhat rarer in technically oriented people (and more common in socially oriented people), making you easily manipulated by socially adept managers who find you easily exploitable and manipulable.High agreeableness basically means that your first instinct in the abovementioned situations with a manager is never to oppose or escalate the conflict, but to go with the flow instead.I am not agreeable (quite opposite), but I am easily socially manipulable, because I want to fix things and make them better; I am easily diverted by presenting problems that ostensibly others have failed to solve. So, I can see how easily a socially inept/not-proficient highly agreeable, easily socially manipulated person might find themselves repeatedly in the situations you have described, without recognizing the pattern (it being inherently social and not technical one). If this is the case, I would seriously consider assertiveness training, and possibly cognitive-behavioural therapy (with a therapist specialized in workplace dynamics) to examine how these situations have repeated, and what you can do to avoid them in the future. After all, such therapy is nothing weirder than learning a new language –– this time, a situational social awareness and reactions to specific patterns –– and observational skills to detect situations and react to them positively with prepared and pre-rehearsed, clear patterns to resolve the situation.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 12:51:19 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on February 22, 2023, 11:59:25 amSo, no, youweren't"literally handcuffed" to the new engineer, viz:Quote from: tggzzz on February 22, 2023, 11:57:35 am

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 01:11:00 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 22, 2023, 12:15:00 pmI think you missed the "il"Fixed it for you.Quote

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 01:18:48 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 22, 2023, 12:15:00 pmKeep in mind that some rather silly and odd questions have been asked by the entity named Faringdon, so I would certainly take everything the entity writes with a huge grain of salt.Think back of thievable scopes, spraying wooden floors wet to overcome ESD, etc.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 03:01:44 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on February 22, 2023, 01:11:00 pmYouknowme fail English, you meanie!(Joking aside: thanks, corrected now.)Quote from: pcprogrammer on February 22, 2023, 01:18:48 pmSurprisingly, that all matches a personality profile which avoids personal confrontation like the plague. Even their habit of thanking everybody, even those who post things that would really irk for example myself, fits the picture.There are all kinds of personality types among humans, and that is one of the key reasons why we are so adaptable compared to basically any other species. There aren't that many vertebrates that can live all the way in the Arctic down to the hottests deserts and rainforests in the Equator.Evolutionarily useful personality profile mixes can appear quite odd in todays Western societies, especially now that social conformity is being highlighted and emphasized so heavily by social media. Highly agreeable and highly neurotic personality types (for whatever reason, much more often women than men) are especially vulnerable to social-related stressors, and suffer from related mental illnesses in increasing numbers (see e.g. University student mental health statistics). Super-agreeable but less-neurotic personality types can be quite adamant peacemakers and conflict-avoiders, even looking at technological solutions to avoid social confrontation; but the lesser neuroticism also means they can feel free to describe their ideas and experiences online, something a more neurotic personality type would find very difficult.I'm not a psychiatrist, and haven't studied psychology much (except what I've had to, due to my own issues), so this is just my opinion based on my observations on Faringdon's posts. I could be utterly wrong here, but the various pieces seem to me to fit well enough to post this, just in case it helps anyone.My own immediate emotional reactions differ very much depending on whether I know (or think I know)whysomeone reacts the way they do; apparent understanding makes it much easier for me to deal with odd/uncommon/strange behaviour, as long as it does not damage or hurt anyone.For whatever reason, Faringdon doesn't bother me, really.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 03:12:19 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 22, 2023, 03:01:44 pmI know, just teasing a bitQuote from: Nominal Animal on February 22, 2023, 03:01:44 pmHis posts do not bother me either. At times they are fun. The ones about the SMPS's I mostly just avoid because I know next to nothing about them. Can't really tell if they make sense or not, but something like in this thread sounds very unlikely. But hey, who knows, we live in a very strange world

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 06:27:30 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 22, 2023, 12:15:00 pmAs an interesting aside, having a manager with high agreeableness can be awful in ways that don’t become apparent until down the line. I worked at one place where my manager (one of the owners/founders) was highly agreeable. Of course it meant that in many ways he was easy going and nice to work with. The problem is that he simply could not bring himself to give any “negative” feedback. (I guess in his mind it’s the same as criticism.) So if you were happily doing what youthoughthe wanted, but was actually on a different course, he wouldn’t say anything until he eventually snapped. Even if you asked point-blank “please inform me right away if I’m not doing it the way you want. It won’t upset me, it will actually be a big help.” he still couldn’t do it.The other problem with high agreeableness is that they will promise things that they have no chance of delivering on. That manager would do it to us, to customers, etc. (Me, I have no trouble saying “sorry, I can’t promise that”.)In contrast, the best teacher I ever had was one whose expectations were always absolutely crystal-clear: things needed to be done how he said it, and he expected top quality and wouldn’t accept anything less. As adolescents, the first year with him we thought “who the fuck is this lunatic?” But by the second year, it was second nature and you never had to wonder “what did he mean in this assignment?” And in the third and final year, we knew him so well we could play off his predictability.But it wasn’t until I’d worked for managers who couldn’t express their expectations that I realized how valuable clear, unambiguous communication is.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 08:49:39 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 22, 2023, 12:15:00 pmYes, that's how managers manipulate engineers when they know that a direct order won't work/will make them look nasty.We want to fix things.Note that this kind of manipulation goes beyond the realm of engineering and workplace.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 07:28:37 am
content: Quote from: tooki on February 22, 2023, 06:27:30 pmAgreed; I've had a such project manager also. When everyone was co-operating positively, they did fine; but when one person started manipulating everyone else, they crumbled and switched jobs. Was a horrible experience for me also. That was the project where that one person sent an email to students exhorting them to "be real humans, not just students".Quote from: tooki on February 22, 2023, 06:27:30 pmSo true. It can feel socially cold or abrupt at first, but it makes working so much easier and less stressful, I definitely prefer that.As I've mentioned before, I've done my best work in a team where our domains of expertise overlapped only slightly: just enough so we could fully trust each other. That is when I learned that when there is a technical reason why a specific feature cannot be implemented in exactly the way the UI/UX/artist wants, one can simply quickly sketch out the root limitations, and describe a couple of alternatives to sketch out how those limitations can be avoided or overcome, the UI/UX/artist will often find an even better option. This, too, requires not only trust in each others' skills, but clear, unambiguous communication.The hardest part is describing the technical details and reasons to a non-expert peer; that's where my use of analogs comes from.The other members liked me too, and have mentioned they too had a "nothing is impossible" feel in that team.Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 22, 2023, 08:49:39 pmOh yes. You have perhaps noticed my extreme attitude about "playing social games" even in discussions online?I am still easily manipulated in real life, but I usually do realize it soon afterwards (because of experience!), and it makes me angry.It is unfair, and the sense of fairness goes deep, below and pre-sentience, being found in many other social animal species.If we look at eusocial species, it is the equivalent of parasitism: exploiting others without providing anything in return.Funny thing is, mutually beneficial social interaction is not only usually less effort, but also yields better results; and this can even be mathematically proven (see e.ggame theory). Mutualism isn't even limited to mammals or vertebrates, consider burrowing tarantulas and their small "pet" frogs for example, not to mention ants and termites farming fungi already extinct everywhere else except their nests.To circle back to the original topic, I don't think one has to be a troll or be playing games to post the kinds of threads Faringdon/Treez has; having a less common set of personality traits suffices. Whether that is or is not the case, does not actually matter to me, because I also happen to know that responses centering on things with very little emotion are what titillates a troll the least: if they are true, then some of my posts might be useful; but if they are a troll, none of my posts will bring them much satisfaction at all. Win-win.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 10:52:34 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 23, 2023, 07:28:37 amI'm not sure pure parasitism - in the sense of not providing anything in return - does actually exist in nature, or at least it's relatively short-lived.There's often some mutual benefit, even if we can't comprehend it.Alternatively, there's probably a form of "mild parasitism" that provides zero benefit to the host, but is not "annoying" enough for the host to care. Something that we also probably find in human interactions. Depending on our own individual tolerance threshold.But even when things are really not obvious, I don't discard the probability of a mutual benefit in most cases. Our brain finding sometimes weird benefits to seemingly annoying situations.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2023, 09:00:37 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 23, 2023, 10:52:34 pmSure, I do agree with that.So, consider my statement a slight exaggeration, highlighting the difference between mutually beneficial interaction, and interaction where you have no intention to reciprocate.Or, using as simple terms as possible, to highlight the difference betweenmutualismandparasitismas interaction strategies.