Did the digital multimeter world not turn? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: pstimpel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 07:33:02 am
content: Hi,I am doing some research on a new multimeter. During this, I have seen the reviews are years old, no new rants are coming up, Dave is somehow quiet on this topic (maybe due his experiences with branded products?). Based on which community you are asking the recommendations are still the same. So, did this part of the world not turn during the last years, are the 5 or 7 years old reviews still the thruth?I mean I would understand if it was that way, since measuring voltage and co did not change. But what are the innovations of the last years in this area?RegardsPeter

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 10:13:34 am
content: This:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-new-aneng-an888s-combines-multimeter-bluetooth-speaker-and-clock/

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 11:25:02 am
content: Quote from: pstimpel on March 04, 2020, 07:33:02 amYou are not the only one..I have done this for months BEFORE deciding to acquire a moreexpensive one... (the cheapos are not a problem to decide)Thing is:- We have entered a whole new era of gizmos- CHEAPER FPGAs (really) and FAR MORE CAPABLE ones..- compact and touch like screens with integrated stuff- better batteries for reliable operation..Well that combined with unprecedented available optionsfrom large production made the choice challengingIt makes absolute no sense to me at least ...expend insanely amounts of money on "LOCKED OPTIONS"for expensive software devices.. which no longer evenfit on a modern bench. Too much money for OPTIONSwhich become available in simple hand like OS devices...And in just a dozen months they are obsoleted by new cheaper largerand better FPGAs (not only cheaper.. but faster and WITH MUCHMUCH BETTER SOFTWARE - check ARM/RISC recent stuff)The days of those expensive scopes are being phased outwith smarter cheaper and much like PC OS integrated stuffCheck MICSIG ... latest gizmoHANTEK also pushing a cheaper and decent qualityvery usable stuff. with unthinkable price bottom lineHard to decide which one to put your money.ONE THING LAST YEAR I HAVE DECIDED- EXPENSIVE SCOPES (in particular LOCKED SOFT ones) ...are no longer a good optionabout 3 months to decide a purchase last year...which actually combines ALL THINGS bench scope/dmm/soft...Paul

author: pstimpel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 12:09:30 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 04, 2020, 10:13:34 amOrdered two of them months ago, now I want somthing to have a backup if the speaker or clock fails...

author: pstimpel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 12:16:10 pm
content: @PKTKSMaybe this is valid for the cheapo market, but is it the same for the mid range market, where you buy a DMM around 100-200 EUR/USD? Which device is the Brymen BM235 of 2020? Still the Brymen BM235?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 12:21:08 pm
content: This is what happens when the web 2.0 crowd try to do a multimeter:Meanwhile: The engineers keep on with their boring LCD displays and batteries that last for many months.KISS.

author: pstimpel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 12:53:22 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 04, 2020, 12:21:08 pmVery true.If this is the truth of the market I can deal with that. I mean, in my other hobby photography it is the same: a DSLR that was decent 5 ys ago, is still a decent camera today.So a BM235 is still a good multimeter even it is a few years old now, and there are no real advantages made so far in terms of added USEFUL features in that market segment. Would you say this is true?

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 01:22:34 pm
content: Quote from: pstimpel on March 04, 2020, 12:16:10 pmThere is no simple answer as this is a moving boundary now...Hardly you will find "cheapos" in the "western" brands.Looks to me that the East is the proper place to keep trackThe boundary is getting lower where better models withmore features (integrated) and lower prices are becoming normAs long as "western" sales representatives and aggressivepresence are not au pair with "western" brands (more pricey)We will hardly find one outside the East markets.But they are every day hard to ignore..e.g. Any western brand out there in the marketplacecan no long stay on their (pricey) "comfort comfy zone" as they were...Paul

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 03:59:50 pm
content: None of the major US brands (Fluke, Keysight) feel they need to turn - they deal with corporations and corporations keep on paying the meter tax.In the serious meter world: Brymen is the place to be for Bang/Buck.In the Asian world there's a new meter every month or so. Some of them are very good meters if you aren't the sort who demands a UL certificate before use.

author: pstimpel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 06:37:15 pm
content: I want to go for a BM235 or BM257s. I guess I can order now. I wanted to make sure I did not miss any new development on the more serious brands.So...Bargraph vs better Diode test, nice decision to make now.Cheers

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 07:12:02 pm
content: Quote from: pstimpel on March 04, 2020, 07:33:02 amThe only answer to this is "How much do you want to spend".the BM235 is really nice, my day to day go to. The EXTECH 330 is my other meter, don't use it quite as much, but it was half the price.At the bottom end, I've given away (to students) Aneng AN8002 and 8008s, because for the price they're great, although I'd never use it for measuring serious (>150V) voltages or current.

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 07:21:49 pm
content: In the same ballpark is now the new metraline series from metrawatt,don't know how good they are but I expect decent.https://www.gossenmetrawatt.com/english/produkte/basicdevices.htmhttps://www.reichelt.nl/metraline-dm61-multimeter-digital-6600-counts-metraline-dm61-p253286.html?&trstct=pos_2&nbc=1metrahit 2+ is a very solid meter but perhaps not the "bang for the buck" you are looking for.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 10:04:33 pm
content: Quote from: pstimpel on March 04, 2020, 06:37:15 pmWhy not aim a bit higher? For not much more you can get one of their 500,000 count meters.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 10:13:13 pm
content: Haters gonna hate, but objectively the 121GW raised the bar in many areas:You can upgrade/downgrade the firmware easily.You can save and restore the calibration and even copy the file to/from your computer.Bluetooth is built-in and you can use it with almost any device/platform.Combined size, feature set and battery life.I've been looking at some Fluke and Keysight logging meters and the sheer number of limitations and gotchas are stunning. I did pick up a new Fluke 287/FVF but only because it was $200 and I couldn't pass it up. The software and connectivity on that is unbelievably bad. I think Keysight is better, but I haven't yet found a deal worth jumping on.For the 121GW, it's disappointing to see development is so slow or even stalled:The dual display functionality could be taken SO much further.File copy to/from the meter over Bluetooth (firmware, logging, calibration) would be an awesome feature.Further application improvements?

author: pstimpel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 11:01:19 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 04, 2020, 10:04:33 pmI do not need the 500k count, I guess. Basically, my old Peaktech 2010 does all I need. However, I have it for quite some years now, and want to step up a little. Now I have no strict limit, but staying around 100 EUR would be cool.

author: pstimpel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 11:04:34 pm
content: Quote from: J-R on March 04, 2020, 10:13:13 pmI am far away from hating. The 121GW is just above my limit. And yes, I read a lot about issues this little thing had/has(?). But you are right, in terms of software updates and so on, it sound quite interesting to have such a meter. Too bad the software is not OS, so the improvement is bound to the plans of the makers of this device.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 11:31:40 pm
content: Quote from: pstimpel on March 04, 2020, 11:04:34 pmOh, for sure I didn't mean you were a 121GW hater, I just meant in general it seems to get quite a bit.Personally, if I have a high quality device with "issues" but it has some stand-out aspects, I'm 100% fine with it. But a low quality device in the same situation usually turns into a gift for friends and family even if they don't need it!

author: ceut
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 12:04:31 am
content: Same for me.I have bought a BM257S: only 1.5V diode test and only 3000µF capacitor, very short backlight 15s timeout.But it has a fast bargraph, and it is fast, except for the regular screen freeze that I have posted here and mailed to Brymen, without any answerAnd I found how to calibrate it so it's OK.The BM235 has 3V diode and 10000µF and a super-fast continuity checker, but lacks of bargraph...I test actually a brand new Keysight U1272A (not mine) and I must say that it is really a great DMM, very very fast, I think it's the fastest portable meter I have seen, and many great features (300Mohms / 10000µF capacity / many useful tips on many range, it's also the 1rst meter I see with many settings with a menu in it, timeout for Backlight, timeout for auto power, filter type etc..). But super expensive; But I think I will buy it because I have found no equivalent.I have also check all about the 121GW, with many youtube review, it's really great, but it seems very very slow, and also some problem with EMC/RFI.So I continue to check if there is new firmware from UEi and maybe new mainboard revision.It seems that it's also the first time UEi works on ST microcontroller so it may explain all problem.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 12:28:52 am
content: Quote from: pstimpel on March 04, 2020, 11:04:34 pmOnce they already have your money there is little incentive to improve the software. This is not meant to bash that particular product which by most accounts is quite good. It's simply a reality across the industry.

author: sassywren
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 04:02:45 am
content: I've been buying only fluke 87-V for at least a decade and a half and that is likely all I will ever buy. They are indestructible, rarely ever need any adjustment at cal time, and they always work. In the last 20 years, almost nothing has changed about voltage, current, frequency and temperature measurement with a meter. Voltage is still voltage, current is still current, temperature is still temperature, and frequency still frequency (though I almost never used that feature! I have a scope!). I use the hold, min/max and backlight regularly. That is all I need and I love having this simple task focused tool for it that always works. People hate on it just like they hate on my german cars. If they drove the car they would understand, I don't want a flashy ToyotaScion or DisposableKia with a million knobs and features. I want a good old M5. I love the M5. The M5 might not have a million buttons and features but I can beat the living snot out of that car every day as long as I change the oil and it will never complain, and it brings me great joyI think there are two groups of people: People who want the rugged, reliable, vrey-task-focused meter, and people who want a (futuristic?) meter that does ALL THE OTHER THINGS. I have other tools for those other things. Nothing wrong with either side, everyone likes what they like.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 04:42:32 am
content: Agreed, the 87V is very good. I don't regret that purchase one bit.German autos, yes to that too. I like the Audi S4 personally.Perhaps some of us are in a third group. I like the right tool for the job but I also like to try the bleeding edge.

author: sassywren
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 04:52:51 am
content: Quote from: J-R on March 05, 2020, 04:42:32 amI have a C5 S6 in the midwest and it is worn, tired, and even showing a little rust, and I'm kicking around the idea of a C5 RS6 while they are still out in the wild... I love that era so much. Wife will shoot me if I buy one more car so something has to go firstSeeing these cars rust even a little bit makes me cry... Midwest is horrible for this!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 05:42:00 am
content: Quote from: sassywren on March 05, 2020, 04:02:45 amAnother thing with DMMs is that they by nature must live in the world of Electrical regulations.Touchscreens, for instance, are a possible area where the integrity of the meter insulation may possibly be compromised.Another thing is that of inadvertently selecting the wrong range by either having big sausage like fingers, ortrailing one of the unused fingers across another selection area on the screen.I have this problem with my iPad.Just a few minutes ago, I inadvertently went to the "Budget Multimeters" site whilst trying to select the next page on this forum.Imagine how I'd go with a smaller screen!My old Fluke 77 stays where I set it------ if that setting is wrong, its not accidental, I made a dumb mistake!

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 06:11:39 am
content: Quote from: pstimpel on March 04, 2020, 11:01:19 pmI think you have answered your own question from the initial post right there.

author: pstimpel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 08:47:28 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on March 05, 2020, 06:11:39 amDon't you know that feeling, that tells you "buy something new..."

author: Jan Audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 02:18:38 pm
content: Scope world just turns faster.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 05:40:03 pm
content: Quote from: pstimpel on March 04, 2020, 11:01:19 pmVirtually no one needs 500k count.However, having two meters is handy (Voltage + current). I would just get a second that is useful to you, under the constraints that you have (budget). The one thing you see on modern meters (even the lowly Aneng 8002) is a frequency counter/mark-space measurement, which on microcontrollers is mighty handy.

author: Ground_Loop
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 05:59:45 pm
content: BlueTooth, WIFI, USB, touch screen, speaker, alarm clock? PFFFT, All I need is a multimeter that multiply meters things.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 06:20:58 pm
content: Meters, meters everywhere,And usually they stink.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 02:52:28 am
content: Quote from: boffin on March 05, 2020, 05:40:03 pmThe 500,000 count Brymen 857/867/869 models are essentially 16 bit (60000 count) ADC hardware. The software averaged 500000 count reading is such an easy and cheap to implement feature I don't understand why others don't have it. I was dubious over its usefulness until I replaced the battery in my truck. I could check the quiescent voltage drop rate and check the 'vampire' load on the new battery, to verify there isn't any unexpected load killing the battery. Since then I found I was using this feature far more often than I anticipated and glad the meter has it. Do I absolutely need it? no.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 07:03:18 am
content: Quote from: boffin on March 05, 2020, 05:40:03 pmReported to moderator for heresy.

author: Calvin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 07:44:28 am
content: Hi,I´m no one tooNeed it almost on a daily basis to check type-R thermocouple elements.regardsCalvin

author: pstimpel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2020, 11:52:32 am
content: Look what was delivered today...Thanks for your contributions to my question.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2020, 12:03:58 pm
content: You are all crazy. All anyone needs is 1 to 2 (hundred) Fluke 70 series meters.(Good Grief, I hope everyone knows I'm joking. I don't even have 100 Fluke 70 series meters. Obligatory serious remark: As long as the meters I have do what I need, I won't consider buying anything else.)

author: pstimpel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2020, 12:31:17 pm
content: Quote from: Excavatoree on March 11, 2020, 12:03:58 pmI was called that a few times in the past, there seems to be something to it

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2020, 02:02:29 am
content: There has been continuing consolidation in designs and OEMs and I do not think it has been for the better. Battery life has generally decreased over the past 30 years; 2000 hour (9 volt) multimeters are now rare or non-existant. Displays have gotten worse over the past 20 years with lower contrast LCDs and higher power OLEDs. Input impedance is less likely to be well specified, perhaps to hide that it varies with range.

author: bluey
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2020, 12:18:01 pm
content: As far as basic multimeters go, hardly much has changed since i got Fluke 87-I nearly 30 years ago.Fluke has plenty with more features and way more cost - logging, remote display, miniscope, etc.I think its surprising that the quality hasn’t trickled down to the lower end of the market. Spec sheet sells more than lifetime warranty, and if it’s cheap and nasty you get to sell more - the chinese business model.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2020, 02:08:56 pm
content: Quote from: bluey on May 09, 2020, 12:18:01 pmThere's not really a lot of features they could add.Quote from: bluey on May 09, 2020, 12:18:01 pmThere's a bunch of very nice Taiwanese meters in between those two (Brymen).