Tesla downgrading software to lock out features on its cars... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 10:05:16 pm
content: https://www.engadget.com/2019/06/08/tesla-model-3-software-downgrade/Who really owns the car?

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 10:25:37 pm
content: QuoteTo me it sounds similar to Sony's manner when they decided remove "Other OS" for different reasons but then at least they had a choice for non firmware updated consoles to keep on using it but not join the Playstation network.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 11:01:03 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on June 09, 2019, 10:25:37 pmThat also cost Sony a fair bit of money. Luckily for Tesla their fans would never try and bring them down like Big Oil does.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 11:43:51 pm
content: A bit of speculation is that see their stocks fell to the levels of over two years ago in couple of months.I wonder, was it a mistake that they forgot about until recently or they decided they needed find other ways to make more money.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 12:24:14 am
content: I can foresee legal issues with this, particularly in Australia (assuming of course there wasn't some kind of "free trial" clause in the sales contract).But even if Tesla wrote into the contract they can cripple features whenever they like and even if the buyer signed and "agreed" to those terms, if challenged in court there is a good chance that they would be deemed unfair and made null and void.Australian consumer law is pretty clear about things like this, such as:Products must:match descriptions made by the salesperson, on packaging and labels, and in promotions or advertisingmatch any demonstration model or sample you asked forcome with undisturbed possession, so no one has a right to take the goods away or prevent you from using themThis is a non-exhaustive list, but terms which could apply to a car. These also apply to any bundled products/services which came with the original product.I'm not aware of any product which forces an update (particularly ones that cripple performance/features) without the consumer's express permission.Well done Tesla, way to screw over your loyal customers. I wonder if they are working off the Apple business model?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 12:38:40 am
content: Maybe i have some of this wrong but as i understand it some people purchased a car with specs X but received a car with specs x+extra.Sort of like buying a entry level scope with no options but getting to use all the features unlocked for 30 days.Seems like a pretty normal thing, just the first time we are seeing it with a car.Now, if the user had paid for the features but later Tesla decided that their model wont have those features any more and so disabled them.Then the user would have a legit case against Tesla.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 01:28:24 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 10, 2019, 12:24:14 amWell, they make it closer to what customers bought. They delivered higher spec model than those buyers purchased.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 01:30:50 am
content: Quote from: Psi on June 10, 2019, 12:38:40 amThey decided to not produce base model due to low demand and delivered higher spec model with some software locks for base model orders but it's still better than base model. Apparently early deliveries came without software locks.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 06:32:36 am
content: This lawyer discusses the issue of who owns the car.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 01:37:56 pm
content: I mean the whole "ship with the whole package but pay a ton more to get some bits flipped" business model is a load of crap anyway, worse than Apple (who's max level is just crap anyway). We see lots of people "jailbreaking" stuff due to this from scopes and other test gear to consumer products. Are we gonna see it in cars now?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 01:48:40 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on June 10, 2019, 01:37:56 pmThey don't sell it normally, you won't find it on their website. As of software locks of normal cars, they have autopilot locked. Also they sell Canada special at reduced price with crippled range to get into tax incentives price bracket and then you can pay more to unlock normal range.

author: dferyance
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 06:26:56 pm
content: Reminds me of the time I purchased a water pump. I didn't need something heavy-duty so I picked a low HP model. When opening the box there was a note that the manufacturer ran out of parts or inventory of the model I purchased so they packaged up a more powerful model instead -- I should enjoy the free upgrade.That was the end of the story. No firmware updates, license checks, DRM, or software lockouts. That's how products ought to be. If you get something better than you ordered, consider it a bonus. No take-backsies.Only reasonable exceptions I can think of is if the higher range limit was unsafe on the batteries or caused some other problem. Might even be reasonable if it was a shipping error and they accidentally sent the wrong model. But it sounds like this was intentional and the only difference is a single memory bit and not actually equipment capabilities.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 07:39:55 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on June 10, 2019, 01:37:56 pmThere has been a long running argument with farmers purchasing tractors and other plant equipment (both autonomous and manual). They are basically tied to the manufacturer to get it serviced because no third-party dealer have the software and interfaces to be able to modify the ECU and other parts of the vehicle.So yes, people are already taking matters into their own hands with manufacturers threatening not to honour warranty (which I guess is fair), but the whole situation shouldn't exist in the first place. It's just another version of DRM and making money for the manufacturer. Some companies haven't worked out yet that if you lock people out of products they own, they'll find other ways around it. If you try and tell people theycan'tcopy a DVD or a game, they'll find a way to copy that item.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 09:42:49 pm
content: "Your Model 3 will soon receive new software that matches the Model 3 Standard Range configuration you ordered."Seems completely reasonable. I don't see a problem here as long as it was clear what they were buying at the time. Unless you were somehow deceived, hearing that x features are on the base model they got, so you should get it too when you buy it.Quote from: dferyance on June 10, 2019, 06:26:56 pmUsing more range from the battery will reduce its life, and would result in more warranty claims. Probably not a significant amount, but its still the case.Quote from: Psi on June 10, 2019, 12:38:40 amYes, same thing here. It lets you demo features you haven't paid for, which is a good thing, then you know if they are worth it or not.edit: the warranty repair/voiding thing is a completely different topic IMO. I think its fair to hate on Tesla for that.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 09:46:27 pm
content: What disturbs me most is that there still exist people who buy from such shitty disrespectful companies.Stockholm syndrome is so strong those idiots will even argue "you see, they have a right to do it, they just license that software to you, you don't own shit". As if anyone in his right mind would care.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 11:53:09 pm
content: It's pretty bad customer relations, if nothing else... if having those features locked out was important to Tesla, they should have been locked out from the get-go.Like your car was delivered with chrome alloy wheels, and the dealer service department replaces them with steel wheels during the next routine service visit because "your car should never have had chrome alloys in the first place"... seriously, Elon?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 12:16:50 am
content: Quote from: magic on June 10, 2019, 09:46:27 pmOften we do so because there is no viable alternative that is not shitty and disrespectful to some degree. Buying from a company doesn't imply approval of their behavior, often it is the lesser of several evils, or a superior product despite the aspects we don't like. It's easy to say "just don't buy from companies that do that" but what do you do when everyone is doing it?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 12:25:07 pm
content: Tesla does a lot of things right, I hasten to add! - it's just that doing things that seem "petty" to customers is such an obviously bad policy that it is surprising that a company like Tesla would embark on it.Hopefully they will change their minds when they've slept on it.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 02:02:15 pm
content: Like with a PC, you own the hardware but you license the software. It is a tricky thing because they cannot be separated.Microsoft decides to patch a vulnerability and we might not like it.Suppose Tesla decides to limit or disable some feature and claims it is to improve safety or to limit their liability. The video I posted above is one such case.The best thing would be to rent the car from Tesla so that you can cancel the lease when you do not like what they are doing to you.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 02:09:23 pm
content: On topic, Rigol does this with the DS1054Z as well.We just crack the fucker.The same will happen with the car.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 03:27:38 pm
content: Crack a Tesla and good luck getting Tesla to do any warranty or maintenance work.Get in an accident with a cracked Tesla and good luck getting Tesla to accept any liability. In fact, you could get into serious liability if it is determined what you did added risk.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 03:58:34 pm
content: This happens today already you realise?For example if you buy a VW/Audi/Skoda etc you can usually turn on aftermarket software based features.Also watch out for the legislators on that...

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 05:35:14 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on June 10, 2019, 01:37:56 pmThink about it in reverse.Price discriminationallows them to sell into lower end markets which would not otherwise be served or would have to pay even more.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 06:43:09 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on June 11, 2019, 03:27:38 pmLet them know how you did it they might pay enough to afford the upgrade.https://techcrunch.com/2019/03/23/hackers-conquer-tesla-and-win-a-model-3/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_cs=PlWOK2QUNCxXO6CSgeLz5Q

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 07:12:59 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 11, 2019, 05:35:14 pmI agree. And why would I care? They offer me a product with certain features at a price I am willing to pay. That's the deal. Why should I complain that another guy paid more and got more?Windows Home is just a crippled version of Windows Pro. So what? You want less you pay less. You want ore you pay more.I am fine with that.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 07:44:54 pm
content: In a free market economy the price should reflect the production cost, so price discrimination shouldn't be possible.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:08:40 pm
content: Quote from: apis on June 11, 2019, 07:44:54 pmwhere on earth did you get that idea? In a free market economy the price reflect what people are willing to pay

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:11:51 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on June 11, 2019, 08:08:40 pmIt's the whole point of a free market economy, if there is perfect competition the price will approach production price (as if guided by an invisible hand).(I.e. maybe it's some form of market failure that leads to these kind of pricing schemes.)

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:18:31 pm
content: Quote from: apis on June 11, 2019, 07:44:54 pmYeah? I missed that part of the Bible. Maybe you can point it out.Because in my world we have this thing called supply and demand and freedom of the market and people buy and sell at whatever price they agree on.You ever take an airplane flight? No two passengers paid the same fare.Here's a five minute university education:

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:22:30 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on June 11, 2019, 07:12:59 pmAnd are yo ufine, that the same software with the same support costs 1/5th in russia, because they would just pirate it otherwise? Or that the same stuff is way cheaper in the USA, because the company decided that 1 EUR = 1 USD = 1 GBP?If you think that software cripple is the biggest issue with the car, it is not. Read up on the cost of repair bills. And no, not the dreaded (and not happening) dead battery. Imagine changing the charging port for 2000. Little dent to front bumper 23000. Broken bolt in suspension 13500. Fixing air conditioning 2500.These are all true repair bills. The problem is that the company is like the model T of cars. Everyone else figured already out how to build cars, they just didnt have the battery and the engine. None of which is rocket science, I might add. For example Toyota doesnt have an electric car, but they can build and fix a regular car for the fraction of the cost of a Tesla. They have figured out how cars get damaged, have the right amount of spare parts available, have aftermarket parts,shops that know how to repair the car.But you know what is rocket science? Friction stir welding aluminium panels. If you damage it, good lock repairing it. The nearest automotive garage which has the equipment for it might be on an other continent. Nobody is going to repair it for you, or charge the price of another car for it.So yeah, personally, I wait until others figure out how to make electric cars. They are. And after solid lithium batteries are here, all "first gen" electric cars will become very undesirable. It is completely flipping the market.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:25:40 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on June 11, 2019, 08:18:31 pmIf there is more than one seller the buyer will pick the cheapest, all other things being equal. If there is profit to be made more sellers will enter the market and competition will drive down prices until profits approach zero. I.e. the products will be sold for production price. (Idealised and over simplified of course, etc) That is what is good about free market economy, it's supposed to self regulate.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:34:01 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on June 10, 2019, 01:37:56 pmif you buy a PC is is capable of running almost all software under the sun, but unless you "get some bits flipped" by buying licenses you can't, how is that different?

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:38:23 pm
content: Quote from: apis on June 11, 2019, 08:25:40 pmso a Louis Vuitton handbag is extremely expensive to produce, why else would it cost so much?

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:43:05 pm
content: Quote from: apis on June 11, 2019, 08:25:40 pmI don't see how this goes against software vendors selling different versions at different prices.Just like an amusement park can sell you different passes at different prices which give you access to different areas.The good thing about a free market is that you are not forced to buy and you can take your money and spend it on something else.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:50:22 pm
content: On a flight no two people paid the same fare. You always hear those who paid ore complaining they are being gouged but you never hear those who paid close to nothing and way below cost say "oh, poor airline, they are losing money with me, I should give them some more money".Prices are not determined by production cost but by demand and supply. Production costs indirectly influence the supply side but the buyer does not care in the least about how much it cost to produce something.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:55:12 pm
content: According totheory, competition is supposed to drive down prices on an ideal free market. So I supposethe market isn't ideal."Price Discrimination: A monopolist can change the price or quantity of the product. He or she sells higher quantities at a lower price in a very elastic market, and sells lower quantities at a higher price in a less elastic market."Anyway, maybe these schemes shouldn't be defended if one believes in free market economy. The point of free market economy is to have a self optimising system so prices reflect the production cost and not whatever people are willing to pay.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 09:56:32 pm
content: The point of a free market is to have a free market, the freedom to buy and to sell freely. That is the point. Freedom.You don't have to buy a Tesla if you don't like it. You can take your money and spend it on ice-cream.And Tesla can offer whatever they want at whatever price they want and people are free to buy it or not.Freedom. It's a good thing.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 10:49:21 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 11, 2019, 08:22:30 pmthe insurance companies are starting to take notice that electric cars cost them something like twice as much as regular cars, both because they are very expensive to repair but also for some reason they have more accidents, like driving into the wall of a garage

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 10:54:01 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on June 11, 2019, 08:38:23 pmBecause the brand has value as a status symbol to some people, and there is only one company producing the real deal for sale so there is no competition. Now designer handbags have no appeal to me but it's not hard to explain why some people will pay what they do.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 11:21:25 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 11, 2019, 10:54:01 pmWell... there are loads of other designer brands. But the thing is: all of them are expensive and they can be because they don't compete on price but uniqueness.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 11:23:09 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on June 11, 2019, 10:49:21 pmCitation of a country would help. In canada they have lower claim frequency:QuoteInsurance rates in the US are higher for equivalent model, as a result of them costing more:https://www.valuepenguin.com/how-having-electric-car-affects-your-auto-insurance-ratesThats not a like-for-like comparison.Tesla we know is incredibly expensive to repair and often a write-off, but that is one specific brand.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 11:27:11 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on June 11, 2019, 09:56:32 pmYou wouldn't have to buy a Tesla in a planned economy either. Freedom is valuable, but freedom for one person can mean less freedom for another. I've not heard anyone argue that freedom is why market economy is better than e.g. planned economy before though. The argument usually goes something like this:"Friedrich Hayek popularized the view thatmarket economies promote spontaneous order which results in a better 'allocation of societal resources than any design could achieve'. According to this view, market economies are characterized by the formation of complex transactional networks which produce and distribute goods and services throughout the economy. These networks are not designed, but they nevertheless emerge as a result of decentralized individual economic decisions. The idea of spontaneous order is an elaboration on the invisible hand proposed by Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations.<...>Supporters of this view claim that spontaneous order is superior to any order that does not allow individuals to make their own choices of what to produce, what to buy, what to sell and at what prices due to the number and complexity of the factors involved.They further believe that any attempt to implement central planning will result in more disorder, or a less efficient production and distribution of goods and services."(From thefree marketwikipedia article)The idea was that a free market is self optimising (in some sense) so that, for example, the cost of goods reflect the actual production costs (or to put it differently, that net profits tend towards zero). If you can make a profit by selling tomatoes, more people would plant tomatoes and sell them. This would lead to increased competition and the price would drop until it's no longer profitable to sell tomatoes. So you reach an equilibrium where the consumer prices match the production prices.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 12:14:21 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on June 11, 2019, 11:23:09 pmyes, I misremembered it seems specific for tesla (in Danish)https://ib.dk/teslas-fremmarch-udloeser-kaemperegning-til-danske-forsikringsselskaber/

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 02:54:51 am
content: Buyers and sellers are in a kind of war... the flip side of "buyer chooses the best product for his needs" is "seller influences, cajoles, attracts, persuades, forces, etc., buyer to choose a more expensive product".The real balance in the market is between those two forces... i.e. how well buyer understands his needs, vs. how well seller understands them!

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 07:05:33 am
content: Quote from: apis on June 11, 2019, 11:27:11 pmThis is only true with regard to commodities and only to a certain extent. If you are buying oil or coal in the Chicago exchange then one supplier is as good as the next and only price matters but even then if the prices sink too much the suppliers can cut back production in order to keep prices from not sinking more. I may have the goods in a warehouse waiting to be sold and even costing me money to store but if I believe market prices will go up I may choose to wait to sell. What the goods cost me to buy or produce have no bearing on my decision at this point.Many sellers sell below cost because they are not looking at making a profit on a particular item at a particular time but in a big picture where they make money in the big picture, not each individual transaction.The cost of flying an airplane from A to B can be the same all year round but the airline charges as much as the market will bear in high season as in low season. And even on the same flight no two people pay the same fare. The fare paid by each passenger bears almost no relation to the cost of having the flight. One year an airline can make a ton of money. Another year the airline can lose a ton of money. Obviously if the airline loses money year after year they will go out of business and the supply side shrinks a bit.Look at airfares. Flights between cities where many airlines fly are competitive and probably sold below cost. Flights between two cities where only one airline flies... get ready to pay through the nose.Same thing with hotel rooms. The cost of the room can be the same all year round but the price of the room varies a lot from one season to another.Getting back to Tesla. They sell the full version to those willing to pay more and the crippled version to those not willing to pay full price but willing to pay enough to satisfy Tesla. There is nothing wrong with that. It gives people who could not afford the full version the possibility of getting a simpler version.A company can sell way above production cost to some willing customers and below cost to other customers for whatever commercial reasons they have. They only have to make money in the aggregate.What is the "production cost" of Windows 10? There are thousands of ways to calculate it which means it is impossible to calculate.If I raise pigs and I sell the legs to a ham manufacturer, the ears to another manufacturer, the bellies to another, the guts to a dog food manufacturer, etc. How do I determine the production cost of the snouts? The answer is I don't. I just get for it as much as the market will bear. At the end of the year if I made a big profit I take a vacation with my family and if I lost money I decide if I should continue raising so many pigs or if I should raise fewer pigs and more chickens.So, yes, I get what you mean, but it is much more complicated than what you make it sound.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 11:25:43 am
content: Quote from: soldar on June 11, 2019, 03:27:38 pmEnabling featuresthey already sell"adds risk"?People mod other cars all the time, and they certainly don't blame the manufacturer if something goes wrong. The biggest concern there is likely with emissions regulations, but those obviously don't apply to EVs.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 11:58:42 am
content: Quote from: amyk on June 12, 2019, 11:25:43 amI gather you do not have much experience with lawyers and lawsuits. Tesla must have an army of lawyers.You buy any electronic device and it has a seal that says if you remove it you lose your warranty. They don't care whether you opened it to have a look or to mess with it. Warranty is gone.Tesla probably protects their code so the user cannot break into it and even more probably sells the car with provisions that if the user tampers with it he loses all warranties, rights and even his wife and children who now belong to Tesla. If they can show the user tampered with the code then they will disclaim any responsibility for anything.And when the user goes to court claiming all this is unfair, an army of Tesla lawyers will claim that when he tampered with the code the user renounced all his rights as is clearly stated in the small print. Furthermore, when the user tampered with the code thinking he was only enabling this or that he was also inadvertently causing some dangerous condition which caused the accident and how is Tesla going to be responsible for what the user did. And good luck financing the legal battle against Tesla.Watch the video I posted. Tesla says they are allowed to disable features at their discretion. User goes to court. User loses lawsuit. And he had not even done anything wrong. If it could be blamed on the user you can bet Tesla is sure to win.So, you can buy a Tesla and you can tamper with the software but from that point on Tesla is going to disclaim any responsibility for anything and say you are on your own. And the courts will most probably back them up because they don't want tree shade mechanics patching manufacturer's code.Not to mention that you are messing with something for which you probably legally need an engineers license. You probably can't just mess with a car without being legally qualified and authorized. I shudder to think what would happen in the open roads with self drive cars if every little hacker is allowed to experiment with his own code.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 04:07:30 pm
content: I've never owned a car that had any kind of warranty, it's actually kind of liberating to be able to do whatever I want and not have to worry about voiding anything. Even on the rare occasion that I do buy a product new I usually find it's less hassle to fix it myself if something breaks than it is to ship it back to the manufacture. I think I've had a warranty repair done on something once or twice in my life.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 04:32:14 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 12, 2019, 04:07:30 pmI totally agree but we are entering a new age where things are controlled by computers that run code which the user does not control. I do not like that loss of control but it is inevitable.Because I do not like to have others controlling what I do I am still running Win XP, refuse to be in any social media, refuse to use a Samsung Android phone I was given, etc. But it is a lost cause. We will soon be driving cars controlled by others. Hopefully I will be dead before then.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 04:58:12 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on June 12, 2019, 07:05:33 amI don't think it's limited to commodities, but there are many unrealistic assumptions such as perfect competition, it's the ideal case.Quote from: soldar on June 12, 2019, 07:05:33 amIt's because the supply is fairly constant over the year but the demand changes dramatically. The long term average should (in theory) even things out (at the limit).Quote from: soldar on June 12, 2019, 07:05:33 amTechnically they are selling two different products in that case. I didn't read the whole tread carefully enough.Price discriminationusually refers to a company selling the same product at different prices (like region coded DVDs). By all indications Tesla are struggling to make a profit in a pretty competitive market though.Quote from: soldar on June 12, 2019, 07:05:33 amYes, companies will charge whatever the customers are willing to pay. But if you have an ideal free market then competition should push down prices as far as possible. If there is a second company selling the same product they can get more customers by selling at a lower price than the first company (which was selling way above production cost) and stil make a profit. If prices are far from production costs it's a good indication you are also far away from the free market ideal.Quote from: soldar on June 12, 2019, 07:05:33 amIt's indeed very hard to calculate, but if there were perfect competition, etc, then Microsoft would be forced to sell them at a price-point so that the company just barely covered their expenses, i.e. it would match the production price (so we don't have to calculate it). Of course, Microsoft doesn't have competition on the desktop OS market, so they can charge whatever people are willing to pay. That is not a free market though, it's a monopoly (or oligopoly at least).Quote from: soldar on June 12, 2019, 07:05:33 amIt's much more complicated, and I'm just pointing out how a free market is supposed to work, not how things actually are (maybe the markets aren't always as free as some like to think). If you want free market economy you need the government to carefully regulate the market and what companies are allowed to do, so that you get an even playing field and lots of competition without harming the environment or the workers, and so on.It doesn't really apply to Tesla though. It looks like they aren't making a lot of profit so they are probably selling close to production prices. And Tesla clearly doesn't have a car monopoly.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 05:17:43 pm
content: This clearly illustrates the downside of buying any device that is re-programmable without the owner's express consent. What happens when Tesla decides to drop this model in favor of a new more expensive model? Will they just permanently disable all of them? It wouldn't be the first time that a company pulled out of a market and left ALL of their customers with a bunch of dead or useless devices.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 08:30:18 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on June 12, 2019, 05:17:43 pmIt doesn't illustrate a downside in this case, the customer paid for model 'a' with features b c and d, and that is exactly what they have now.IF they disabled working cars there would be a massive lawsuit. There is no reason to believe the car will stop working once it loses internet/update access, although it is a possibility (same with any vehicle that has premature failures, but it would be much more widespread).

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 11:42:41 pm
content: This is one thing I always kinda never liked about Tesla it sounds like these cars are cloud based, essentially. Don't like the idea of that at all.Also hate the idea of imposing artificial limitations on anything. It's one thing to charge extra for a feature that actually has a physical component cost to it, but to just lock stuff out unless you pay more is ridiculous. This is a pretty popular way of doing things unfortunately.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 06:14:12 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on June 12, 2019, 11:42:41 pmI do not understand this way of thinking. At all.Suppose Tesla offers a full version at full price and a limited version at a lower price. Now, what do you want them to do? Remove the limited version and offer only the full version at full price? You already had that option and you are removing the limited version option from people who cannot afford or do not want to buy the full option. What positive objective does this achieve? None.You would want them to offer only the full version at the reduced price? Firstly, it is probably not viable and would mean closing down. Secondly, who are you to impose the sales price? Shouldn't they be free?Assume the complete code is composed of a basic part A and an additional part B. You believe you have the right to part B for free? Like if I bought Windows I have the right to the Office suite? After all, it's already done and it costs them nothing to give it to me. Its just bits.Windows Home is essentially a crippled version of Windows Pro. Should MS only sell Windows Pro? At what price? If you are a customer who does not need all the functionality of the complete version why should you be obligated to pay for what you don't want? Is it not better for MS to offer at a lower price a limited version more adapted to your needs?It is the product of their work and they should be free to do with it as they please. They should find the most productive way for them. Charge a price for the full version, charge a lower price for the limited version, give away a few units to orphans and widows, whatever.They have their business model and it is not up to us to dictate a different model. They offer a product for sale at a price of their choosing. You can take the offer or you can reject the offer. You have no say in how they market their products except to reject their offers.NVidia does the same with their video cardshttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/hacking-nvidia-cards-into-their-professional-counterparts/A hospital has an expensive machine that cost millions but using it costs nothing. Should they charge nothing for its use? Should they charge everybody the same? Should they charge depending on the importance of what is being done? Should they charge only according to how rich the patient is? Should they be free to charge any way they see fit so they can maximize their revenue?A guy charges money to tell jokes in some venue. Why? It costs him nothing. Why should I pay to listen to his jokes?Maybe you do not realize that this practice is not new. Car manufacturers have been offering models that had very little difference in manufacturing cost but big difference in sales price. The production cost between one motor and a bigger motor might be minimal but the models were sold with very different prices. In essence the customers who bought the bigger option were subsidizing the ones who bought the smaller option. If you offer both at pretty much the same price then you lose sales of the people who can only afford less and you are not making as much as you could from those who would pay more.This practice is very old and has been used with all sorts of products. Cameras, electronics, etc.Airplane seats are similarly sold at very different prices. You think they should all be sold at the same price?You really need to rethink your position and understand how marketing works.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 08:10:46 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on June 10, 2019, 01:37:56 pmThis has been commonplace in the automotive industry for decades, detuned engines producing poorer power or fuel efficiency for (claimed) gains in life span. It used to be easier to retune an engine, but even with fully electronic control there are specialists who can trivially get more from the delivered product, and they often charge through the nose for it. Make the change and almost any warranty is immediately void.Binning can be behind many of these segmentations, parts are delivered with tolerances and then selected to deliver as different configurations. Test equipment, semiconductors, cars, batteries, they all have examples of this. Early production might have poorer yields and the premium product specification is truely limited, as the process control comes into tune yields and performance can improve impressively. But it comes back to economics:Sell the flagship product at healthy margin but with unbounded true performance, sell a strictly limited/detuned version to lower markets.Sell the premium product at the true cost with the initial production parameters, detune all the excess as the yield improves.Sell the premium product at the anticipated cost to recover its value mid life, initially sold at a loss with limited availability.Continually release new product variants to set the price and performance as production changes.I've worked for companies doing all of these business strategies, they balance risk with customer satisfaction. Tesla are going with the last of those, almost zero risk but unhappy past customers as pricing and specifications change quickly. Look at the complaints on here when a new anything is announced, buyers of the previous thing insisting they deserve something in compensation.The first of those strategies is equally difficult, with top end customers benchmarking their products and churning returns or fake "faults" to try and get a better one (that usually has zero impact on their actual use and is beyond the guaranteed specifications), but they don't want to pay the premium for the manufacturer to bin on that and pass on the real cost of the performance.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 08:22:58 am
content: Quote from: soldar on June 13, 2019, 06:14:12 amMany engine platforms dont even need a different block/bore/piston to span 2x or more in power, throw in forced induction and it can get silly. Trivial costs compared to the leatherwork interior which is bundled with the bigger engines so different consumers are forced to buy things they don't want.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 10:14:50 am
content: Not only that. The cost of two similar motors but one having a bit more displacement is going to be pretty much the same. If I buy 100K of one and 60K of the other they will each cost pretty much the same but I can get a better price if I buy 160K of one single type. Saves on tooling, setup, etc. Makes inventory management simpler.A cabling harness might be made for several models and have more than it needs but it is cheaper to buy and manage a single model.Same thing with electronics. It might be cheaper to get a single board and not use part than to get different boards.Someone buys an NVidia video board and is satisfied with the price. Then he finds out changing some jumpers converts the board into a much higher end model and he feels cheated.Books are published in hardback first and a year later in paperback.Movies come out in theaters first and later on DVD.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 10:48:13 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 13, 2019, 08:22:58 amOften it's just ECU firmware that differentiates power of different models in engine family.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 12:04:50 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on June 12, 2019, 11:58:42 amI see you are not in the US, so here's a bit of enlightenment for you: go to YouTube and search "hot rod".

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 02:35:55 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on June 13, 2019, 12:04:50 pmYes, I realize you can mess with cars up to a point. I do not know what each state requires for a car to be road worthy and be able to get it registered. I know most would have exceptions for classic cars, kit cars, etc. OTOH, with regular production cars I know you are not allowed to change certain things like certain equipment, anti-pollution devices, etc. Depends on the state. So, yes, I know it is complicated.I guess my point is that Tesla protects their code and if a self-driving car is involved in an accident and Tesla can prove the user tampered with the code, then Tesla is going to disclaim all responsibility and the user is going to have an uphill battle trying to shift any responsibility back to Tesla. And Tesla will have more lawyers, which always helps.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 03:28:27 pm
content: In thisspecificcase, the relevant question is weather or not the Tesla buyers were awarebefore they made their purchase, that their vehicles had features that they didn't pay for and that might be turned off in the future unless they paid for that upgrade. I don't know what Tesla told their customers but most auto dealerships are very upfront about that, a good example being free Sirius radio for 90 days and that after that you had to subscribe or the service ended.But my worry is that just giving the auto manufacturer or dealer theabilityto turn off or to control any function at will is a huge risk to a consumer. What happens if the manufacturer or dealer goes out of business? Will your internet enabled car just die and you have no recourse? Also what's to stop the manufacturer or dealer from slowly detuning your car to the point that you're no longer satisfied with it and are forced to buy a new car? Giving the manufacturer. dealer, or potentially a hacker, the ability to alter the operation of MY vehicle without my consent is NOT acceptable to me under any circumstances. We're already seeing the appearance of ransomware on personal computers and even some government computers, how long until a hacker finds some way to do the same for Teslas and other internet connected vehicles?

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 03:42:50 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on June 13, 2019, 03:28:27 pmI totally agree but I have also totally given up. I know what the future holds and I don't like it but I can't stop it either.Younger generations like it. Most people do not fully understand the implications and just don't care.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 04:28:18 pm
content: Such great technical possibilities of control over citizens' vehicles is a bonanza for the Big Bro.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 10:51:59 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on June 13, 2019, 06:14:12 amYou need to consider what the large scale effects such pricing schemes have. If, for example, potential business class customers will pay a large price differential only if economy class seats are uncomfortable while economy class customers are more sensitive to price than comfort, airlines may have substantial incentives to purposely make economy seating uncomfortable.I don't think it's clear exactly what the consequences are in these cases, but if they are not benefiting society then there is no reason to allow it.Quote from: soldar on June 13, 2019, 06:14:12 amYou confusehow things arewithhow things should be.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 11:05:21 pm
content: Quote from: apis on June 13, 2019, 10:51:59 pmFreedom is a benefit in itself. I am for freedom and deregulation unless there is clear evidence that regulation is needed to remedy some serious problem. That is how things should be. Freedom first. BecauseQuote

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 11:57:31 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on June 13, 2019, 11:05:21 pmFreedom is a benefit for the one who has it, freedom for one might mean less freedom for another, it's complicated. To make an extreme example: freedom to kill isn't a good thing (even if it'sonly for a day). Regulation can be good or bad but it's always needed in a free market system or else you won't have a free market for very long, and you would have all kinds of negative social and environmental effects.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 12:08:09 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on June 12, 2019, 11:42:41 pmWhat do you mean by "cloud based"? A Tesla relies on WiFi connectivity for downloading firmware updates. If you don't want FW updates, just don't set up a WiFi connection, and, presto!, no FW updates.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 01:40:09 am
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on June 14, 2019, 12:08:09 amAFAIK it doesn't use WiFi, it has an always-on GSM connection --- like a lot of other "smart" cars out there.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 01:53:23 am
content: Quote from: amyk on June 14, 2019, 01:40:09 amIn the States it can use either LTE or Wi-Fi, with Wi-Fi preferred. It's somewhat unclear if updates via LTE require the Premium Connectivity package, however.Regardless of how the update is delivered, you still have to choose to install it. If you ignore it, it won't be installed. Tesla has dire warnings in the user's manual about not installing updates, but that part was probably written by their lawyers concerned about liability.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 02:16:16 am
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on June 14, 2019, 01:53:23 amIf it's anything like most products that I've owned it will ask you if you want to install the updatenow. But if you don't install it it will ask you every time that you turn it on and eventually it will stop asking you and will just install the updatewithoutyour consent.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 02:20:03 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on June 14, 2019, 02:16:16 amA Teslawillpersistently remind you to install updates, but as far as I know, it won't install one without your consent.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 07:23:46 am
content: This is not new. It is just one more step down the software road. Cars twenty years ago already had a lot of software controlled functions that could be updated or modified. The thing is you had to bring the car in for service. When you brought it in for servicing they probably did the software update without even telling you exactly what it did. If it was a serious issue NHTSA would issue a recall.What is changing is that software is gaining importance on how a vehicle functions and that it can be updated without bringing the vehicle into the shop.As we move towards self-driving vehicles the importance of software becomes paramount. Glitches and bugs will be discovered that will need to be patched immediately in a way this is good but it also gives the manufacturer and dealer a lot of power over the user.Personally, if the manufacturer and dealer are going to control the software as a service then I would rather rent or lease the hardware so that I can change to another brand whenever I like. Sort of like we do with phone services today.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 10:04:37 am
content: Quote from: soldar on June 13, 2019, 03:42:50 pmI think this is the part which most people have a problem with.Selling something with extra options which can be paid for is fair enough, but the manufacturer having the ability to enable or disable them remotely is not right.Of course the consumer has no right to dictate to the manufacturer their business model, but the manufacturer should have no right to dictate to the user what they do with their car, once they've purchased it.The software companies have got away with it because copyright law prohibits the user from making copies of the author's code without their consent. Simply booting a computer, involves copying the code from the hard drive to the memory, i.e. making a copy, which enables the author to tie the consumer into all sorts for conditions, to gain their permission to do so. To some extent this is fair, especially as the software can be separated from the hardware, but in many respects, it's gone too far: just look at how much of a turd Windows 10 is.The problem with a car is the software and hardware are inseparable. The manufactures want to have the benefits of a rental contract, without any of the responsibilities, at the expense of the consumer. This has been a big problem with agricultural machinery with software locks preventing farmers from repairing their own tractors. To combat the problem, the US government has legalised the circumvention of software locks on agricultural machinery.I agree, it makes more sense for the consumer to rent a car with these sort of software locks, than actually buy one.And driver-less cars are highly unlikely to take off on a large scale, in part due to the issues discussed in this thread.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 02:56:49 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 14, 2019, 10:04:37 amCompared to what? My Linux boxes crash much more often than my Windows machines do. Is Windows 10 perfect? No, but it is a solid, stable platform that gets a bad rap mainly because of bad feelings towards the company.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 03:00:31 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on June 14, 2019, 02:56:49 pmWhen looking at consumer hardware, it's more often caused by hardware (especially RAM) than software. Unless you've done something ridiculous to it.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 03:16:17 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 14, 2019, 03:00:31 pmYes Windows doesn't crash much nowadays but that was not the point. The problem with Windows is user is no longer in control of their PC.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 03:39:19 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 14, 2019, 03:16:17 pmWere they ever? If you're referring to automatic updates, then I agree with you--MS makes it very hard for the average user to opt-out of automatic updates (but I'd argue that the average usershouldn'topt-out).

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 04:07:02 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on June 14, 2019, 03:39:19 pmNo, when Windows first became popular, the user had a lot of control over their PC. The configuration was all done with user readable text files, rather than the cryptic registry. I remember having hours of fun tweaking win.ini system.ini, config.sys and autoexec.bat on Windows 3.1 and MS-DOS. The computer was not connected to the Internet, most of the time and getting connected was expensive and slow. Updates didn't really exist, until fast Internet connections became cheap and widespread.MS gradually took control away from the uses as time went on. Forced automatic updates in Windows 10 were the final straw, although they seem to have backed off a bit.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 04:22:45 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 14, 2019, 03:16:17 pmFor practical purposes, Windows rebooting due to an unwanted spontaneous software update is indistinguishable from a crash and should be considered the same.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 04:35:26 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on June 14, 2019, 03:39:19 pmIt's a matter of trust. For many years I never had any reason to opt out of updates, Windows Update worked very well and I trusted it. Now not so much, MS abused it to the extent that it caused me more grief and concern than similarly behaving malware and viruses. New bugs introduced regularly, features coming, going and changing, reboots in the middle of trying to do work, settings I've configured frequently reverting, crap I didn't ask for getting installed, I could go on. Simply put, I no longer trust Windows Update to do what is in my interest, instead it is a vehicle for Microsoft marketing. When it comes to my PC, I demand the final word on what it does and when, period.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 04:42:09 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on June 13, 2019, 02:35:55 pmIt's illegal to tamper with emissions control hardware, some states like California are particularly strict. In practice though you can do pretty much whatever you want, only a few states have inspections other than a tailpipe sniffer every couple of years and that is being phased out since so few cars fail anymore.Then once a car is 25 years old it is exempt from any kind of inspection. It's quite liberating to not have to go through any of that, I don't think I'd ever want to go back to having a younger car.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 04:48:06 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on June 14, 2019, 02:56:49 pmMy Linux boxes never crash, I've had uptimes of more than a year before, limited mostly by power outages.My Windows machines don't really crash either, my desktop bluescreens once in a while but I suspect faulty or marginally compatible RAM in that one, there has always been something not quite 100% right.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 08:23:55 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 14, 2019, 04:42:09 pma tailpipe sniffer rather pointless, there's got to be something massively wrong for a modern car to fail and a random check of the tail pipesays little about the real world emissions. They already of the possible emissions issues like misfires and bad cat via OBD

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 10:50:33 pm
content: These days, most automotive emissions testing consists of plugging in to the OBDII port, and verifying that there are no error codes related to emissions...

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 04:21:17 pm
content: QuoteIn Austria the Petrol Station are permit only once a Day to increase the price for Petrol. Lower it is unlimited possible.How would you feel when 1L Milk cost on Peak Time 5€ and on off Peak 1€ for example?QuoteWell when every Company decide to sell 1L Milk for 5€ how should the Customer choose something elese?QuoteWrong. When I see how Supermarket Chains here in Austria work you will see there is no competition against each other. The have all the same hight Price.You can choose the flavour of your choice but in the end the are the same.QuoteWell for that reason thankfully many thinks are still quite State Owned! Would you pay 500€ per Year for the Autobahn? When I follow your argument you dont need to drive on the Autobahn you can choose just narrow Roads.The same for Public Transport. 2000€ for a Train Ticket is to much? You dont need take the Train you can walk!QuoteThat happened in Austria. A lot of smaler Airlines had to close because the (former) State Owned Multi Milion € Airline lowered the Price for exactly that Route where the smaler Airline flown on until the had declare Bankruptcy.Thats how the "open marked" work. The defacto Monopolist cut the Price for one Route, Product,... until there is still no competitor left and the price goes up by 400%.Quotewell if you have an accident later or your house burn up you are screwed and the insurance will pay nothing.QuoteWell here in Europe there are many different Version of a DVD, Bluray is sold because the have all different Language inside.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 04:55:43 pm
content: Quote from: Lord of nothing on June 15, 2019, 04:21:17 pmonly way that could happen is if they have contacts and agreements, price fixing and market sharing.that is illegal around here,https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/competition-between-businesses/competition-rules-eu/index_en.htm

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 05:05:56 pm
content: Quotewell there was a case in Germany. In a small Town is a Public Lake Bath with an Snackbar. Some people complain against them for some reason.Now the City open there own Snackbar infront of the Bath. Both hace the same price for Food and Drink with one little difference. The Person who rent the Snackbar in the Bath lost Money because the Snackbar in front of the Bath his loos got funded by Tax Money.So what did you think who survive this battle?

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 05:21:09 pm
content: Quote from: Lord of nothing on June 15, 2019, 04:21:17 pmWhat does that achieve? I cannot think it achieves anything useful except make some politicians think they are doing something useful. Mostly the best thing they could do is nothing.Quote from: Lord of nothing on June 15, 2019, 04:21:17 pmI would feel it was better to buy milk when it is cheap unless I needed it urgently. The notion that the government should be regulating the price of milk is absurd. In planned economies where this was tried the result was a scarcity of milk. Yet the free market manages to keep us well supplied with milk. You can buy milk anywhere in New York City, London, Paris, Madrid, Berlin... And you probably cant find a single cow in those cities. The free market entices millions of people to work to satisfy the needs of others. It is almost a miracle. We live better than ever because other people have an incentive to satisfy our needs. You want to know what it is like when the price of milk is regulated by the government? Just have a look at Venezuela. The moment the government regulates the price of something you get shortages. People just don't learn.Quote from: Lord of nothing on June 15, 2019, 04:21:17 pmColluding to affect market prices is illegal pretty much in every civilized country and a few people are caught and marched to jail every year. Now, if you tell me the system is corrupt and does not prosecute enough then the problem is not the market, the problem is corruption and when you have corruption you really do not want to have the corrupt authorities regulating the market.In Spain, like in any capitalist country, you can buy milk at many different prices. I can buy milk here for 0.55 and I could probably find it for 5.50. People choose according to brand, place, convenience, etc. I can go to Costco in the outskirts and buy in bulk for a very low price or I can buy in central Madrid late at night at a 24 h store for three times as much. I like having that choice and that possibility. The moment the government imposes a limit on the price of milk we will have shortages. Somebody stays open late to sell me milk because they can make a profit. If the government says no profit can be made then that choice disappears and if I'm out of milk I'm fucked. If that milk is too expensive for me then I can wait. What is not going to happen is that government regulation is going to lower the price of milk... or of anything else for that matter. We could study hundreds of examples.Price regulation has almost never resulted in lower prices. Price regulation results in (1) scarcity, (2) higher prices and (3) black market. This has been historically almost always true and yet people insist we need the government to set prices. No thanks. The free market may have its problems but governments have a terrible history when it comes to supplying our needs. Awfully terrible. If I have to choose who to supply my needs I will almost always choose the free market.Rent control always results in lower supply and higher prices as we are seeing in Spain these days. If you want lower rent you need to increase supply and you do not increase supply by fucking with the owners. If you fuck with the owners many will decide it is not worth the hassle and take their properties off the market while others increase the rent they ask when you first move in knowing they cannot raise it later. Rent control is utter stupidity and yet a whole bunch of politicians keep proposing it.Some years ago the government here gave some subsidies to young people to help pay their rent. The result, as was foreseeable, was that rent went up. It's called "supply and demand". Watch the five minute university youtube video linked above. Supply and demand. There is no way of getting around it. You subsidize energy for a certain group? Neighbors can buy electricity at half price from them. The entire family will come and shower and cook at grandma's because it is so much cheaper. I know well of which I speak.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 07:28:47 pm
content: QuoteIts simple. In Germany the price for fuel goes up and down in a short time. When the People get of there Jobs the price rise up and get down in the evening.So would you like to pay more for the fuel just for the fact you go to work (or back)?QuoteA Country terrorised by the USA to receive chepa Oil.QuoteWell here it cost the same because there are just 2 Big Player who dominate the Market.And a Handfull of smaller Company with <200 Stores each.QuoteIn many Country the Public Transport ist highly Governmental funded. In many case the Public Transport is very cheap.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 07:42:36 pm
content: Quote from: Lord of nothing on June 15, 2019, 07:28:47 pmAre you referring to something other than economic sanctions?

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 07:55:18 pm
content: Sure did your forgotten about the illegal regime change?What the USA tried is against Venezuelan Law.I gues nobody believe the US follow any Law and regulation even the sign to it.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 08:22:18 pm
content: Yes, government controls on prices don't work. I heard that at one point in the USSR, bread was cheaper than grain, so farmers would use it to feed their animals!As far as the free market is concerned, there never has been and never will be a truly free market. The government will always implement regulations and laws, which restrict the economy. Some of the laws will boost economic growth and other hinder it. One thing to note is that not all laws which hinder economic growth are bad for society. For example environmental and safety laws are very important, even though they can be a pain for businesses.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 08:25:27 pm
content: Quote from: Lord of nothing on June 15, 2019, 07:28:47 pmI did not know that existed anywhere but, so what? Price discrimination happens with everything. If they can get a few more cents out of people who have jobs and are in a hurry they can give a break to people who don't have jobs and have time. That's the way everything works. Car rentals, air fares, hotels, transportation, etc. Not only do I not see it as wrong but I see it as a good thing. Retired people with limited disposable income can travel because they are flexible on their travel while business executives pay much more because they have more money than flexibility. I think that is good. If you want to eat in a restaurant at slow hours I have no problem with you getting a lower price than if you want to eat at busy time. Let businesses set their prices freely and they will do what they can to attract those less able to pay.Just have a look at Venezuela.QuoteOh, give me a break. Venezuela is a basket case solely due to the radically stupid policies and corruption of their government. Just like Cuba and just like any other country with a controlled economy.Quote from: Lord of nothing on June 15, 2019, 07:28:47 pmThis is true. Local transportation in Spain is heavily subsidized and I am not going to get into it because (1) It is really not possible to have competition in the transportation of a city, (2) I do not think it is run more efficiently than private corporations (plenty of corruption) and (3) promoting public transportation and discouraging private transportation is something needed in the big cities. So this is a case that is not really representative of anything. It is very possible that certain things like this need to be subsidized but that does not mean everything needs to be subsidized or controlled.I recommend Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom". It is brilliant and enlightning.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 09:17:47 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on June 15, 2019, 08:25:27 pmThey may have stupid government but they are screwed to this extent mostly thanks to US. But it's off topic, so better to not derail the tread.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 10:15:17 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 15, 2019, 09:17:47 pmthey are so inept and corrupt that they didn't need any help to totally fuck up the country. They have did similar to Zimbabwenationalize, plunder and destroy their main source of income, and print more money to "fix" the problem

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 10:21:16 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 15, 2019, 08:22:18 pmOf course, it depends on how you define "free" but IMHO this is the wrong way of looking at it. To me freedom does not mean no regulation. In fact, no regulation to me is quite the opposite of freedom. You have more freedom in Europe than in Somalia because you have more laws and regulations in Europe to affirm and protect your freedoms.Market freedom to me is that all rules and regulations apply to everybody equally, that prices are not controlled by regulations but are set freely by buyers and sellers, that the government does not regulate end use but lets the market decide the use. Regulations that protect and promote health or other desirable goals are not against freedom of the market if they apply equally to all actors. Selling cocaine is prohibited to everybody. Good. Environmental and consumer protection laws if they apply to everybody equally do not go against the freedom of the market.What is not a free market is when regulations say a product or service must be sold at a discount to a group or industry and at a premium to other group or industry. Maybe in some rare cases it is justified but that is not a free market. When the government taxes differently the same product when applied to different uses, that is not a free market.It bothers me that some people paint a caricature of a free market and then say it is evil. A free market is a well regulated market. Having traffic laws that make everybody drive on the right side of the road does not mean less freedom, it means more freedom. Unless you like to drive in Somalia where you probably would not get very far.If the government says "here are the roads, you can go where ever you like as long as you respect the rules which apply to everybody", that is freedom. If the government (or your wife) says "today you are going to the beach whether you like it or not", I would not consider that freedom.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 10:29:56 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on June 15, 2019, 10:21:16 pmand that means the price (profit) on cocaine is 100s of time higher than it would be if legal anda lot of bad people are getting very very very rich, rich enough to lobby for it to stay illegal to keepthe price up

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 10:40:08 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on June 15, 2019, 10:29:56 pmWell, yes, true but the social problems presented by drugs and how they could best be dealt with is totally outside the scope of this thread. Maybe an interesting conversation for another time. For now all I'll say is that it is one more example of supply and demand. When demand outpaces supply, prices rise.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 11:04:46 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on June 15, 2019, 10:21:16 pmThe problem is market regulations do not apply to everyone equally. They apply less to those with more money and better lawyers, than those who don't.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 11:20:27 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 15, 2019, 11:04:46 pmThat is as old as the world.QuoteDoesn't mean we should not strive to make things better.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2019, 01:47:26 am
content: Quote from: soldar on June 15, 2019, 10:21:16 pmExactly, afree marketis not a market without regulations, it's a carefully regulated market. Today, we have a problem with many markets not being well regulated, and as a consequence they are not free markets. Having no rules is just as detrimental as having bad rules.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2019, 12:59:17 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on June 14, 2019, 08:23:55 pmThat's largely why it is starting to be phased out, but it was only fairly recently that there are cars with OBDII which are old enough to be exempt and the wheels of government turn slowly. I've never had anything new enough to have OBDII, though my current daily driver is a 1990 which feels so modern and fancy to me has OBD1. My former car was a 1987 and back before it was exempt it failed the sniffer test once due to a defective catalyst. At this point there are so few cars that old on the road that the emissions inspections are not really delivering returns.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2019, 02:04:47 am
content: I still wonder why Tesla some Service not with a Limited Service offer.Like the Auto Pilot (or how does it call) Service free for 5Y after buy.So the could extend it for free if the want or even sell some Upgrade feature like full Autonomous Mod.