Running Protel 99SE on Windows 10 - Virtual Machine? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DTJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2021, 08:28:23 am
content: Hey is anyone else persevering with Protel 99SE on W10?I've had it running for quite a while with a patched client.exe file but it's seems to be getting flakier as time goes by to the point where it's now almost unusable.Has anyone had success running Protel 99SE in a virtual machine on W10? Is it difficult to do?

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2021, 06:19:52 pm
content: What for? nostalgia ?PROTEL 99 is the most bizarre version of the wholePROTEL line (including pre PROTE L AUTOTRAXs )It uses that insane MS DB and file based projects.. just nuts.Ditch that even using modern ALTIUM importersand far better results go from there..e.g. you can export to others like Eagle? KiCAD for sureor stick w/ALTIUMPaul

author: DTJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2021, 01:33:44 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on April 21, 2021, 06:19:52 pmMore decades of existing products than nostalgia. There's also some 'if it works why change it'. This is changing quickly.An Altium upgrade is in the pipeline but it may be many months away, in the mean time work still has to be done!

author: Fgrir
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2021, 02:59:15 pm
content: I ran Protel99SE in an "XP Mode" VM under Win7 pro for years without any problems. Well no problems that weren't also present when running Protel on a non-VM system at least. Like you I had 15+ years of designs in Protel, but once I transitioned to Win10 I finally gave up on the virtualization and opened my wallet to Altium. I sometimes miss being able to look at an old design without going through the import process, but really the capabilities in Altium make me never want to go back to Protel.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2021, 09:35:50 am
content: Well... I can only give 2 cents of tidbits...Because I have been there through the 80s and 90sall along until options arise..Here it is:- What to expect when you/we give to Microsoft greedy jerk assholes totalcontrol over our life data, our privacy but worst of all -OUR BUSINESS?- I have seen people blindly putting faith in those faceless assholes trustingtheir private software and methods to run their extortive algorithm over andover and over again and again..- What happens is that very soon you will have to upgrade your hardwareas they want , their software - as they way - and the whole new"LICENSE" crap shit-ware their jerk asshole lawyers want from you to signregardless options of liabilities they would ever assume.So.. options today do exist:- in the very first place: DITCH THAT WHOLE SHIT from these jerk assholesand (re)assume control (back) over your privacy andYOUR BUSINESSDo this TODAY - do not wait a minute longer- you can very easily replace their private shit with some "generic"Linux distro.. the very one most recommended (which I have donevery frequently for others.) is LINUX MINT. Direct replacement- Once done - find a proper way to convert all your data and yourEDA business .. my path was very long.. since the 90s to todaybut for sure the very first option is KiCAD.just get rid of those greedy irresponsible jerks of Microsoft.You will find no need to look behind and a safe clear path aheadPaul

author: alexwhittemore
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 03:43:16 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on April 23, 2021, 09:35:50 amThis whole post is unmitigated batshit insanity.Microsoft offers, bar none, the most incredible software backwards-compatibility track record in the history of computing. Seriously, DOS crap from 1989 still runs on your 5nm spaceship from the future and you're pissed about it? The only reason you so strongly recommend linux instead is because you haven't been using it long enough for compatibility or maintenance issues to arise.Don't get me wrong, KiCad and Linux absolutely IS a killer combination, and I strongly encourage that path for so many reasons. But future assured compatibility is hardly one of them. When the world has moved on from your workflow of choice, community support for it will dry up and it will break.You're not alone in the mindset that "I paid for a license once so it should continue to serve me in perpetuity without issue" but it's an absolute delusion and always has been. No less sane than expecting a car to last you infinity miles, except that at least physical repair parts are an ongoing, sustainable revenue stream unlike patches.The only way you could POSSIBLY expect 20 year old software to continue running identically is if you maintain that same machine with the same software stack, disconnected from the internet so you don't have to worry about software updates.And even still, after all that, Protel99 DOES run on Windows 10.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 06:03:24 pm
content: Just for the record:- I am using LINUX (specifically) since 1993 when I replaced my SCO serverwith one of the first Slackware versions. Very happy replacement(by that time SCO/ some AIX and some HP-UX was to me very common)- I have used CP/M across the 80s and DOS since version 2.x since mid 80s..and *ALL* ( I mean it) all MS shitware across the 90s - total insanity software.bugs after bugs.. upgrades and upgrades a total nightmare.- Tired of their extortion methods I have totally ditched MS in the toilette circamid 2000's just after their "NT" thing incorporated that insane registrydeep in all messy DLLs and crypto keys - unmanageable.Since 2000's I diligently tried to replace a lot of OrCAD, PROTEL, AutoTrax**a lot** of TANGO and some CircuitMaker stuff with EAGLE.. then KiCAD.Altogether with old AutoCAD and 3DS legacy stuff - a nightmare to get rid ofIt has been a long long very hard way to get rid of those shit jerk assholes of MS.Today I am pretty happy having ZERO MS in my business my home my life.They caused me serious prejudice in hardware, money time and effort.To me - and what concerns me - MS should go TO HELL.They have no responsibility whatsoever besides making moneysince the 80 to 2000 was enough.And YES I was once upon a time a hard MS DOS and WIN programmer.. all things like TSRs and drivers and first generations UIsIt was just prejudice putting my time there..waste of my time and my money....But I have fixed all that since the 2000's when finally I had zero MS to considerI have stopped using it - I have stopped supporting it .. I have stopped even touching that ...a very good feeling of getting rid of some filthy stuff..and also just for the record..- i can run my CP/M stuff on a LINUX emulator.. yes I am that folk which craft a CP/Mmemory image for Z80 and 8085 early gizmos...- my DOS 80s stuff on a LINUX VM via DosBoX or even DOS EMU (yes it works in my PC)- I can still run my OLD Win 3.x shit applets in a fairly small fast VM..and all that still using LINUX and all apps under WINE.MS? please ditch thatPaul

author: Batang
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2021, 03:42:34 am
content: Just a thought.The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

author: DTJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2021, 01:57:17 am
content: Quote from: Fgrir on April 22, 2021, 02:59:15 pmThanks for the reply.How successful is the importing of Protel projects into Altium? Does it take a lot of work?

author: ajawamnet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2021, 12:00:27 am
content: Yep - I run 99se in Win10 all the time. I did well over 1,000 designs with that version. Worked well for me.We used Specctra route the one board shown here.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2021, 12:59:50 am
content: While we’ve got the attention of 99SE users, I want to buy a copy. Anyone got a licensed copy they could sell me? Please don’t suggest alternatives.

author: ajawamnet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2021, 02:30:37 pm
content: Quote from: alexwhittemore on April 30, 2021, 03:43:16 pmYea 99se does... as I show above - and yea I keep various flavors of windows around - including Win 2000 since there are programs that will NOT run in win 10 or win 7. I have about 300 CAD programs I've collected since the mid to late 1990's and there is no equivalent. I have used some virtual machines to run some of these, but I have old test gear that omnly runs 16 bit control software.As to the comparison of a car - well, I don't rely on a car to access my intellectual property. As to licenses I've talked about this, ad nauseam, on how it's a violation of various antitrust laws - and again read this from the most prestigious IP law firm:http://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocuments/Patent_Licensing.pdfwhere:“Quiet Enjoyment”Licensees, having paid for the right to use licensed technology, generally seek to ensure thatnothing interferes with the benefits they have received. For example, licensees are concernedwith their ability to obtain assistance from the licensor in fixing defects that are discovered inthe technology, to have the right to fix the defects themselves if the licensor is unable to doso, to obtain periodic upgrades and other maintenance services from the licensor, to transfertheir rights if they sell their business and to continue enjoying the technology even if thelicensor becomes bankrupt.As to having a suite of software that can be backwards or forwards compatible an with earlier version of an OS, to me it seems the the xNIX/BSD guys blow Microsoft out of the water.An interesting tidbit - Altium still runs FORTRAN 77 in the background - they did a webinar a month or so back to show how convoluted their source code has become. Just silly.And as to how to REALLY write code - look at Reaper - A DAW that does a silly amount of stuff - in NEAR REAL TIME - and interfaces to any 32 or 64 bit VST 3rd party plug in (even has a buggy plug in mode) and presents near real time graphics as it runs.It still runs on Win XP... when asked why, Justin mentioned that he still supports MIDI and that's been around for decades. And it still works.And get this - the entire installer for Reaper is around 15 Mbytes. NOT GIGBYTES.This guy knows how to code and does so for the right reasons - after Winamp got bought by AOL he started Reaper just to make cool software and not justify it with business BS - hear him say it himself:https://youtu.be/vfaQrOeb_F0?t=202Maybe it's my TAOIST tendencies - fromhttp://www.ajawamnet.com/ajawamnet/mama_i_wanna_be_a_maker.html:http://www.scottlondon.com/interviews/mitchell.html"Mitchell: There's a wonderful story about that in The Second Book of the Tao.It goes like this:Ch'ing the master woodworker carved a bell stand so intricately graceful that all who saw it were astonished. They thought that a god must have made it.The Marquis of Lu asked, "How did your art achieve something of such unearthly beauty?""My Lord," Ch'ing said, "I'm just a simple woodworker — I don’t know anything about art. But here’s what I can tell you. Whenever I begin to carve a bellstand, I concentrate my mind.After three days of meditating, I no longer have any thoughts of praise or blame. After five days, I no longer have any thoughts of success or failure.After seven days, I'm not identified with a body.All my power is focused on my task; there are no distractions. At that point, I enter the mountain forest. I examine the trees until exactly the right oneappears. If I can see a bell stand inside it, the real work is done, and all I have to do is get started. Thus I harmonize inner and outer. That's why peoplethink that my work must be superhuman."Yea - that's the reason to do stuff.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2021, 05:18:11 pm
content: Quote from: ajawamnet on May 17, 2021, 02:30:37 pmWell... along these 20 years of LICENSING ... RE-LICENSING..upgrading **ALL** hardware to satisfy WINTEL need of cash..Obviously they got richer and richer and everybody else got poor..and more poor.. there is not a single bit of sane reason to continue that.Long long ago at 90s I ditched these jerk assholes of MS and these LICENSINGand BUGware money make machines...The result TODAY attached is a small project I started in the early 80s.- Along 80s done in Accel TANGO..- Converted to PROTEL along 90s...- Converted to EAGLE along 2000s..- Converted to KiCAD along 2010s..- and finally updated and working 20x better todayAnd TODAY I am happy to run the very same project started in the 80s.In KiCAD using NGSPICE andSPECTRAELECTRAAutroRouter under WINE.And a lot of powerful data analysis tools under PERL and PDLwith ready bench graphing done by piped GNUplot..WTF would anyone need this 99 PROTEL a 20y old underthe very same buggy ware MS shit OS ? today...Attached my BENCH with an 80s project TOTALLY LICENSE FREEonce I ditched all proprietary stuff replaced with OSS..I can not even think a similar solution for that ...The DISPLAY is DUAL HEADED workplace machine..and KiCAD is using a 20Giga bytes of PSPICE MODELS andSTEP MODELS for 3D viewers under an NFS server ..WTF do anyone today would need this shit MS or old stuff for ?Paul

author: Fgrir
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2021, 02:28:36 pm
content: Quote from: DTJ on May 07, 2021, 01:57:17 amThere are a few items that require your input but it is pretty simple and usually only takes a couple minutes. All of the designs I've imported have come through 100% accurate, but I did have a few .ddb files that wouldn't import using AD18 so I had to keep AD17 installed since it had no problems importing them. I don't know if this has been fixed with newer altium versions since I haven't been doing any PCB work for the past couple years.

author: DTJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 03:47:41 am
content: Thanks Fgrir, that's very reassuring.

author: DTJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 03:53:15 am
content: Quote from: PKTKS on May 18, 2021, 05:18:11 pmBecause some of us work for companies and these things are beyond our control.The commercial world is full of problems like this, we just have to work as best we can given the circumstances.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 08:32:06 am
content: No doubt i ve been there...Times changed.But stay locked out phased out for 20y+To support those jerk assholes..It makes no sense any morePaul

author: mstevens
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 01:17:07 am
content: Quote from: PKTKS on May 18, 2021, 05:18:11 pmI am curious. How do you get a FREE version SPECTRA AutroRouter? As far as I know that is now a FREE product.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 10:01:22 am
content: Sorry my fault here...It is not Specctra .. you can see by the shot it is the license free Electra (if my memory serves me ok) 4 layer only auto router..It just filled the gap where DSN was expected and a decent routing solution neededApologies for my in rush misplaced appletsPaul

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2021, 08:29:49 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on May 18, 2021, 05:18:11 pmYour ranting skills are top notch !Your layout skills on the other hand. If after that many years it still looks like that you should just give up.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2021, 03:12:25 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 17, 2021, 08:29:49 pmThanks for the insults.. I always use some bitsYou are just not aware that after so many EDA packages...along all this time..I have countless "versions" of this very same (70s) design..done along 80s 90s 00s.. till todayThis one depicted actually is the "unmodified" all THT closeas possible the "original" one made in a paper and actually etched.. i still have the PCB mounted here.. somewhere..It is kinda a thing I like to keep close to the toys..Apart that "original" I have the "modern" ALL SMD shit...updated as well - using the very same chips and stuffIt served me so well that helped me to begin with someEDA packages.. and eventually change them...Other designs just followed this point of the spearThere is none and never was any goal apart the one to savethe work from the obsolescence of EDA and OS and all stuffNonetheless it in fact made everything possible.So .. I really keep it "as is" in my toy scrap.priceless.Design was never meant any other objective..And actually seeing it on the screen with the 70s board on the deskbring me very good memories and things left on the way..can not put that in words.. I made the best to keep it asit was drawn in Accel TANGO by early 80s...obviously it is not identical because that first Accel TANGOwas very limited considering today standards..Folks today are very spoiled by the easy of all stuff available.Paul

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2021, 01:35:38 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on June 19, 2021, 03:12:25 pmahh, statements like this make me wonder if you really need the latest and greatest CAD software. You are clearly stuck in the mindset where thru-hole is superior. So , i can conclude you don't need mulitlayers, backdrilling , diff pairs , controlled impedance , length matching , stacked or blind and buried vias. Why do you even need KiCad or Orcad ? go find an old layout tool , let's say something from the CP/M era , run it on emulated CP/M . It should perfectly fit your needs.Quotecase in point. nostalgia to a simpler time ... with simpler tools.Quoteand... confirmed again. Stuck in nostalgia 70's thru-hole world.Can i suggest finding a box of Bishop Graphics decals ?https://www.ebay.com/itm/264761695969Maybe some direct on copper dry decals ?https://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-Piece-Rub-Resist/dp/B005T8PA1W/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8or go back to perfboard ?Maybe even lugged terminal strips like in the real good old days of the vacuum tube.It should fit you perfectly. You won't even need to use a computer at all. So no issues with greedy software makers , money grabbing hardware makers, endless update and upgrade cycles. Full of 70's good times, no shit SMD.You might even want to invest in a coal stove and antique soldering irons with wood handles.https://www.ebay.com/itm/363433304495?hash=item549e5021af:g:G2AAAOSw8EtgxlgeThat would make sure you don't get spoiled by all the easy stuff.Makes me wonder why you even have electricity in the house...

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2021, 03:01:56 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 20, 2021, 01:35:38 pmNot really.In mid 90s I had a lot of OrCAD SDT (III) and thenthey diverted the workflow to that FPGA centric paradigm..Well despite I really acknowledge FPGA as "advance"..it was not the time and not the primary issue (at time and up to)If i remember correctly PROTEL had just acquired Accel andsome other IPs and took some time to transition to Altium..That time was the best thing at time which allowed PROTELwith incorporated Accel stuff to be a good optionChanged that by EAGLE somewhere at 2000s because the99 version i think is a FIASCO relying on that MS shit stuff...Quote from: free_electron on June 20, 2021, 01:35:38 pmNot really .. My primary electronic activity up to 2000s wasrepair.. and while designing just for my toys and satisfaction..Acquiring parts and actually etching SMD boards at that timewas not easy.That changed a hell of a lot with the Internet from some pointin the 90s up to mid 2000s when SMD parts became wideavailable...BUT! mostly because BOARD etching services became feasibleInternet commerce changed all the stuff overnightToday any newbie can grab a EDA "package" watch some sortof YouTube Tutorial.. and start doing SMD shit like nuts..FEDEX deliver that shit even already mounted. In 5 days !!!!geee I was used to etch my boards w/PF acid and the silk mask partin general took me months.. of patience and labor..Any starter newbie can get a "latest_hot_gizmo_EDA_computer"and youtube that and put that shit thing on the mail in some hours..I did that a lot of times.. piece of cake..SMD some multi layer on any EDA thing. etched in 5 daysin dozen volume and up to my door ... amazing..What the big deal about that?bottom line is that folks used to actually do that on the80s and 90s already know what a little shit of 5 hours workmean compared to a couple of months working on design..Things changed.. I just evolved with them...To be honest .. Comparing a board designed today with a goodEDA soft and made in some hours to your door multilayer..all SMD shit .. already assembled... via UPS or FEDEX..there is no possible way to measure skills on that..While the latter is for kids...the former requires a real skilled folk..I started doing routing on a paper for Christ sakegive me a breakI see SMD as dust on the bench..Invested a small fortune in optical tools and tweezers..for that.... little shit... impossible to avoid this wordPaul

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2021, 04:41:37 pm
content: There is more than just (God forbid) autoroute some LED blinker circuit on a 10x10" board in a random EDA. There is plenty of proud boys out there laying out 6 mil pcb tracks where 20 mil would suffice or thicker traces were required like power buses and stuff. And we even not getting to RF circuits or high speed circuits, supply rails bypassing, etc. You need to *know* this, none of EDA will do it for you.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2021, 06:45:17 pm
content: I too come from the era of self etching boards.In 1976 i drew my first layout on a scrap piece of copper clad using a decon-dalo ink pen. Etched it in Fecl , drilled the holes. Put in two npn transistors, 2 capacitors, 4 resistors and an led to make the classical two transistor oscillator to blink an led.Do i want to go back to that time ? no. in retrospect it was messy, time consuming . but it was a great learning step for a six year old kid.My last hobby board (not job related ) was two weeks ago. a little board with the blinky lights text "happy retirement" for my boss. made with schmitttriger inverters.Schematic was drawn in half an hour , routed in another hour (rooms, clone , copy paste). then a couple of hours to make nice text decorations and graphics. Sent the same evening to JLCPCB in china. Boards arrive 5 days later. i soldered one by hand in an afternoon. all 0603 parts and tssops.