EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 10:14:02 pm
content: Dave exposes the ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver as a complete scam.They are supposed to talk to the car's ECU via the CAN bus on the OBD2 connector, but does it?Bonus rant on Audiophile Audiophoolery!

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 10:26:23 pm
content: Different board layout but basically exactly the same kind of silly light blinking that Big Clive found:I'm sure there are people that believe these things actually do something, though...DERP! It works so much better than the fuel saving magnets!

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 10:28:53 pm
content: I can't imagine plugging random shit into the obd2 port, much less something with lofty claims.

author: johnlsenchak
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 10:46:59 pm
content: Awesome video total wankerey !

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 12:20:07 am
content: Hypermilers know about OBD2 gadgets that really can boost MPG - the Scangauge being one of the earliest ones. Quite a bit more complex than a box with flashing LEDs, but not that much more complex.Of which, what I would like to see is a gadget that uses GPS data and computer vision to learn the timing of the traffic lights and inform the driver to speed up or slow down in order to maximize the chances of getting to it on green. Not at all an easy task but it can save a lot of time as well as energy.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 04:05:35 am
content: Take a look at their website affiliate program link:https://www.h8m8.com/#why-work-with-usQuoteI don't see the Eco Can't bus on their product page:https://www.h8m8.com/#productBut they have got the same payment thing on their other products that take you to their "checkout page"Like this Drone:https://www.blade360.pro/checkout?tpl=dmc3Edit:I don't see it "reserving" me one.

author: Deodand2014
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 06:31:26 am
content: Here is Big Clive's second look at the things, with pretty much the same conclusions.And this video on a car related channel went so far as to put some eBay 'Performance Enhancing' plug in devices to the test on a proper testing rig.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 09:31:31 am
content: their is nothing new under the sunhere is an Australian 1980s originalthe Peter Brock Energy Polarizera box full of magic crystals embedded in tiger snake oil.$480 Energy Polarizer is at 2:35 in the video$480 Energy Polarizer is at 2:35 in the video

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 10:56:44 am
content: I bought one.OK, pause for the laughter to die down..............................................The OBD port on our car is at a convenient point to power the GPS and it has that handy 12V connection, however the ODB plugs (the proper ones) are about 8 Euro each in one-off quantities. So, I bought a scammy ODB fuel saver off EBay for 3 Euro, ripped out the PCB, and replaced it with a 5V regulator.The final step was to label the plug as a GPS supply, just in case our dealer thought that we had lost our minds the next time the car went in for a service.

author: Barny
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 12:12:54 pm
content: What about the 12V Port (a.k. cigaret lighter port)?Its an even more convinient way to power GPS, charge phone,....

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 12:25:01 pm
content: Quote from: Barny on February 16, 2019, 12:12:54 pmPossibly was already in use, plus they often are switched outlets, while the OBD port is an always on 12V source, perfect for an always on GPS device. Hope you also painted the plastic to match the surrounding dashboard plastic before labelling it, though another thing is that you also get car trackers that are a pass through OBD port, using the 12V power, while at the same time having an all wire pass through to a socket that takes the place of the original purple OBD socket, with the original being hidden back further under the dashboard area, so that to the casual look the OBD port is unused, but there is a tracking system in that is easy to install. Often used on cars under HP to ensure that a buyer, with poor credit score, can be traced if they stop paying, so that the remaining value on the vehicle can be realised by repo. Often when the loan is paid off the device is removed, and yes, in the fine print there is the proviso that the company can and will reposess the vehicle, and that there is a tracking system on there, and the monthly fee for this is also included in the payment lump sum.Watched way too much Matt Pitman......

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 02:05:59 pm
content: Oh, yes, of course these cheap little crap-boxes can save fuel!No less!After all, this is a well known fact that the kernel-mode (the lower ring, protected) procedures of the modern car controllers would be more than happy to obey any user-mode imbecile commands (or, even, any service-mode commands, intended to be resetting some internal fault flags), to change the injection/ignition mapping in order to save fuel --or to carry out any other factory-protected procedures...-George

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 02:12:20 pm
content: The "fake light show" is not fake, its real!

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 02:18:20 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on February 16, 2019, 12:20:07 amNo, it is simpler than that. You can optimize a ICE for power, emission or fuel use. Car MF optimizes it for emissions, because law.And you shouldnt change it, because law.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 02:55:35 pm
content: There is a good reason to have the solder mask over the pads - this way the chip is less likely to interfere with the cars operation. So it's not that stupid.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 05:10:42 pm
content: Argh! You beat us.This is somewhat related to our line of work and my boss wanted to make a video too, where we would disassemble one of these POS and demonstrate once and for all that they are garbage. He already bought a couple of them (from ebay of course) and they should arrive next weekI fear that this scam is of a global scaleA bit of fun for my italian pals:https://www.butac.it/davide-bianchi-e-il-dispositivo-ecofuel/This came out a couple of weeks ago, but it's the same shit every few months.The video talks about this young engineering student at University of Bologna. During some experiments he found out a way to reduce fuel consumption and in turn emissions for all vehichles. He tried to publish his research but one day he found out he was being expelled from university, with no apparent reason. Then, with the aid of his uncle (another engineer) he decided to create and market this tool for the good of mankind.The story gives me the shivers

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 05:51:51 pm
content: Quote from: A Hellene on February 16, 2019, 02:05:59 pmIt is definitely possible to remap many cars ECU via the OBD-II port. Just because this devices is a fraud doesn't mean it is impossible. There are semi-reputable companies that do make devices that can do this. They will either provide you with a standard "known good" maps for your particular car, or allow you to individually change fuel parameters which is obviously a good way to totally f-up your car. Depending on where you live and what you actually change this is often illegal, as it is changing emissions related settings from what the manufacturer certified.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 05:59:49 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on February 16, 2019, 05:10:42 pmYou can decrease consumption and emissions by, for instance, braking the engine so it doesn't operate. Zero emissions and zero fuel consumption!There are also new engine technologies that can improve both -- such as HCCI or variable compression ratio. However, for a given engine, you normally have to trade off emissions vs. consumption vs. power. Leaner, hotter burning high pressure mixtures are more efficient but generate more NOx. Rich fuel allows more power but increases consumption, etc. It isn't like the car makers don't know what variables affect those parameters, they choose an engine map that is a good compromise between those three.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 06:19:31 pm
content: Quote from: Barny on February 16, 2019, 12:12:54 pmThis would mean a 1.5m USB cable that passes over the pedals, along the side of the transmission tunnel and then past the gear shift. The OBD port option is a 40cm cable that is out of sight for all but 5cm of it's length.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 06:57:43 pm
content: That box is a poorly covered up a scam indeed. I guess they isolated the CAN signals on purpose so they can get away from legal trouble in case something goes wrong.BTW: I made my previous (turbo diesel) car run 5% more efficient using a 1.5V zener diode. Bonus points to the first one who figures out where I put it!

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 09:07:59 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on February 16, 2019, 05:59:49 pmi take it that you're not getting that it was a publicity video with conspiration theory overtones to promote this very same scam?

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 09:22:06 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 16, 2019, 06:57:43 pmWedged under the accelerator pedal?

author: Lockon Stratos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 10:53:19 pm
content: @EEVblogEven if that thingy wanted to program the ECU the car needs to be a very old one because most new ones wont talk to devices that arent running the official SW from the car manufacturer(aside from a few basic things OFC)....

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 10:58:18 pm
content: Quote from: maginnovision on February 15, 2019, 10:28:53 pmLet's give dodgy equipment what's essentially root access to the valuable vehicle you drive around at high speed. What could possibly go wrong?

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 10:58:46 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 16, 2019, 06:57:43 pmDisable EGR and use the zener to keep the ECU from figuring it out?OM606?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 11:04:48 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on February 16, 2019, 10:58:46 pmNo. Offset the turbo pressure sensor so the ECU allowed to inject more fuel at low RPM giving is more power in low RPM (also known as eco-tuning). With the fix it allowed to drive the car at 70km/h in 5th gear instead of 4th gear.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 11:06:22 pm
content: What if the device actually works... by making the driver being more careful on the gas pedal? Recent research has shown that placebos work... even if the patient knows he is getting a placebo!https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/10/27/499475288/is-it-still-a-placebo-when-it-works-and-you-know-its-a-placebo

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 11:09:09 pm
content: Quote from: Lockon Stratos on February 16, 2019, 10:53:19 pmThat doesn't mean you can't make a dongle that will talk to a particular make/model of a car and actually do something (whether useful or not). For some cars it is easier than others. Most cars don't use any cryptography or strong security anywhere, only security by obscurity (aka protocols are secret and only the dealerships/authorized mechanics have access to the software). Which inevitably means it will leak at some point and get reverse engineered/cracked.And re basic things - well, it depends on the car but for some you can do some truly scary stuff through the OBDII port. E.g. this Jeep model from 2016 or so (which is pretty recent) where the attackers were able to mess with brakes - while the car was moving. Or messing with the steering. The security in car industry is pretty much nonexistent, only designed to keep unauthorized repairmen out, not to actually stop any dedicated attackers.https://www.wired.com/2016/08/jeep-hackers-return-high-speed-steering-acceleration-hacks/E.g. this exists and is apparently popular:https://www.mybluefin.co.uk/Of course, a tiny dongle claiming to be able to reprogram (almost) any car and model is most likely BS.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 11:24:06 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on February 16, 2019, 11:06:22 pmWhat if the device works by making the driver think he can be more careless with the right foot, increasing consumption? Maybe even while making him thing it's actually better.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 12:39:51 am
content: Depends on the model of car, but most vehicles expose all of there memories (even runtime RAM) via a special per manufacturer mode, Now I have 0 doubt the devices out there cannot possibly do what they are claiming, though they can kinda do something, even if its the wrong thing to do, Reset the ECU memory every time it starts up the the stored 100Km economy average is above what feels "normal" In my own experience this tends to make the fuel range and average economy values on most instrument clusters also reset, meaning for the first few minutes into a trip, it can seem like you have much more range, or more economy, because that average has been discarded.I have been slowly digging into the manufacturer programming modes for other things, and there is a lot of copy-paste stuff going around where different car manufacturers use the same brand ECU's etc, And some much more scary things that could be used to make things seem more economic, e.g. most european instrument clusters, even if they use an analog fuel signal, has a test mode where you can set it to read a certain value via can. same for the range and economy displays, without the vehicle getting upset you can lie to the driver, You can alter the scaling of the RPM gauge, to make it seem like your running at lower RPM, and stuff I really would never want to see one of these device touch, shift the gearbox switching points dynamically.As for security, some have recently started using magic tokens to enter these programming modes, this to me seemed to be spurred by the Airbag Controllers before anything else, but I feel that was in response to people resetting them after an accident to sell write off cars. however per year model these tokens seem fixed, Its only really the indentured repair manufactures, e.g. certain tractor companies that are doing things like signing firmware updates and making it a right pain to enter the programming modes, (VS scattered CRC for blocks in most vehicles)

author: Lockon Stratos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 04:07:32 am
content: Quote from: janoc on February 16, 2019, 11:09:09 pmWell i only have experience with only one manufacturer but their system is pretty strict, you cant change anything that has electronics in it without an online connection to the main server god knows where. Its actually so strict that even in production a specialized tool is needed to get all the new parts to talk to each other...

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 04:14:33 am
content: I can guess the vehicle your talking about is 1 of 3 brands, My top guesses would be Volvo or Mercedes,Of the manufacturer diagnostic tools I have seen, its generally only new commissioning of units that need the online part to pull the latest firmware, I've been stuck on site for about 3 hours while I slowly watched the progress bar increase for the download on an out of data firmware on 1 module of a truck, for the next truck I asked the tech to try switching off wifi after he had logged in to the tool, and he could change anything without the forced firmware update. (had 15 trucks to do fittings to over the course of a week, and no body has the time for 3 hours per vehicle of downloads due to the software not caching any of the downloads)

author: Lockon Stratos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 04:20:31 am
content: None of those, this manufacturer do not have trucks./EDITAnd you cannot disconnect from the network if you want to install any new parts(hell, maybe by now it is mandatory to be connected to the network the whole time).

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 09:26:21 am
content: Quote from: Lockon Stratos on February 17, 2019, 04:07:32 amBMW does this. And there are tons of published hacks and workarounds for it online, so that you can "code" and program the various bits and pieces to work with the car when you change them without going to the dealer (and paying top $$$ for them doing it). E.g. my boss was replacing one module that controls most of the lights in the car recently and reprogrammed it using a generic dongle and a copy of the manufacturer's sw downloaded online. So much for such "security".

author: Lockon Stratos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 04:54:28 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on February 17, 2019, 09:26:21 amThats a pretty big gamble right there, if he borks it then the dealer wont touch it and he will have a very expensive paper weight...AFAIK in case of the manufacturer i know even if you have the software from the web you still need the online connection to the main server to get the codes so the car will talk to the new part.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 05:34:16 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on February 16, 2019, 12:20:07 amafaikt Scangauge is just a monitorQuote from: NiHaoMike on February 16, 2019, 12:20:07 amtraffic lights are usually timed to do that at regular speeds already

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 06:19:25 pm
content: I like to watch car mechanics because I learn stuff, and in years of doing this I have only seen a mechanic use the OBD port once.We had lost a key so we needed to a) delete the lost key from the ECU list and b) program a new key. The Ford mechanic had to use a Ford issued notebook plugged into the car and running the security software, and this would only work when also connected to the Ford servers over the Internet.The cost of all this? Enough to ensure that I will NEVER lose a car key ever again.Random dongles from China don't have a chance.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 07:15:59 pm
content: Quote from: Lockon Stratos on February 17, 2019, 04:54:28 pmYeah, but also keep in mind that replacing a broken module (which literally just bricks itself in software because of a power spike or whatever - it can be reset and made to work again) is maybe 30 minutes of work + cost of the module.If you go to the dealer, they will charge you several hundreds of euro for literally plugging in a dongle into that OBDII port and clicking a few buttons. I am not saying it is a smart thing to do, especially for people who don't have much clue about electronics, but for the owners of the older, out of warranty cars, the financial motivation to tinker like this is strong.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 11:40:30 pm
content: The most painful part is that's it's essentially DRM to prevent lawful owners from repairing their cars, while doing little in the way of actual security. Cars are still full of security holes, with hackers remotely activating brakes and throttle by means of a laptop.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2019, 04:23:11 am
content: My car doesn't even have a computer, much less an OBD2 port

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2019, 06:03:46 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 17, 2019, 11:40:30 pmThat's probably why they start and run reliably...At work, the IT guys tell me 99.9% of the problems they deal with are to do with security. [Not hackers trying to get in... but security related software and systems causing problems for legitimate users]

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2019, 07:05:31 am
content: Your confusing the type of security, this is about basic things like buffer overflows, and only really for the non physical access hacks, e.g. way too many canbus connected radios can be used to gain read / write access to canbus via bluetooth or wifi without authentication. So far i have not seen any ECU's that get upset from byte extension, etc, because the transceiver discards everything that isn't valid.For physical access, how they currently set things up and have workshops able to access or edit things prevent them from ever really locking it down, Just like how a certain line of chips have a programming method documented, if you dig in deep enough you can also find the programming methods for ECU's, ABS modules, Instrument Clusters, Etc, all via Canbus or through a proxy connection for most parts these days, as that is generally how they commission them on the assembly line.The hard part is finding the definition of what byte controls what function or switch, how a given modules memory is segmented, etc, this is why most documented hacks only touch on the easy stuff like broadcasting standard messages like throttle position request, brake application request, gear selection request, This is the easy picking, especially if you have physical access, as its just replay attacks with well documented specifications. some cars even have fun things like steering wheel angle messages for full fly by wire vehicles. but you could repeat this "hack" with a ELM327 and an hour of your time on just about any car post 2003

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2019, 09:14:53 am
content: The point is that adding security also adds extra layers of things that can go wrong and prevent the car you are trying to fix from working for the authorized owner/user. That is the problem the IT guys spend their lives on - encryption, configuring firewall rules, etc. etc.I don't think it is a good idea (awful design, actually) that the radio can be used to hack into a car, but on the other hand if someone wants to mess with you and your car, they could let the air out of the tires or key the car, or partly cut the brake lines, or the steering linkages, or any number of bad things. The only real security is for your car to be garaged and watched whenever you are not driving it...

author: johnlsenchak
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 04:44:27 pm
content: Another Big Clive video !

author: thunderbolt87
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2020, 04:34:32 pm
content: Guys,I was just checking the CNN website and ... is that Dave's Aussie tan in the ad ... and his lab in the back?This is hilarious! Or... not. Dave, please sue them!-Felix

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2020, 05:19:32 pm
content: Yep. Timecode 4:29

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2020, 10:05:55 pm
content: Quote from: thunderbolt87 on February 28, 2020, 04:34:32 pmLink?

author: thunderbolt87
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2020, 11:54:41 pm
content: Hey,I'm not able to get that particular ad again because stuff is rotating. But it was on a regular article page like:https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/27/politics/chinese-laser-us-aircraft/index.htmlAt the very end, in the paid content section. I was just looking through that section cause it was strikingfor me how much ads they have these days. Yellowpress quanitity...I'll post some more complete proof if I see that again. I swear it was there.(Maybe google/youtube tracked that I visited some automotive software related sites before)-Felix

author: bluewave
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 10:48:34 am
content: Love this (old) video! Was given one of these devices today. Looks exactly like Dave's one - same packaging and all.Opened it expecting to find the same as the video...but NO!! Totally different circuit! Has a prominent and ancient PIC16F69, complete with 4MHZ crystal.I haven't explored the workings of the circuit or powered it up, but noticed two small problems:NONE of the pins of the MCU are connected to anything (top or bottom) - it is just there for looks! No connections under the chip, vias, nothing. Probably a non-functional factory second I am guessing - or just an empty fake package.The crystal pads connect to NOTHING else in the circuit.

author: Artz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 25, 2024, 05:29:09 am
content: Fuel economy is a big selling feature now. If there was something this simple that could make any meaningful impact on fuel economy why wouldn’t the manufacturer do that from factory. None of these fuel saving gizmos ever work.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2024, 09:12:43 am
content: Quote from: Artz on April 25, 2024, 05:29:09 amtheoretically there is a chance that it could work if done right, but it would be at the cost of increased emmisions which is why the manufacturers don't do it

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2024, 09:31:40 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on April 25, 2024, 09:12:43 amThat doesn't sound logical. Wouldn't better fuel economy automatically cause less emissions? Less fuel burned, less exhaust gas produced and all?

author: elektryk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2024, 10:01:28 am
content: QuoteThat's not only about CO2, after tuning NOx and PM emissions can be raised even when it is fuel economy tuning.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2024, 10:10:56 am
content: Quote from: elektryk on April 25, 2024, 10:01:28 amand unlike CO2, NOx and PM has an immediate local effect

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2024, 02:39:11 pm
content: This was great, is there any way to find out how many of these fuel saver units have actually been sold?There must be a Western based middle man/org enabling this, there are likely to still be warehouses in USA/EU/Aus etc full of these things,because they are probably still selling like hot cakes.The advert was very captivating, with that guy saying he got sacked for finding the principle, etc etc.What got me was the silkscreen pads....Aaaah!!