Electrical Engineering vs Electronics Engineering vs Computer Engineering - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: 42Bits
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 06:16:25 am
content: Are they all similar ?

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 06:19:41 am
content: Going by the name, there seems to be 50% overlap...Why do you ask?

author: 42Bits
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 06:22:10 am
content: Quote from: hamster_nz on April 04, 2019, 06:19:41 amBecause I wanna know the difference between them.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 06:31:31 am
content: Quote from: 42Bits on April 04, 2019, 06:22:10 amA ten word question deserves at best ten word answer....No they are very different, but overlap slightly. A bit like doctor vs dentist vs physiotherapist.

author: 42Bits
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 06:33:32 am
content: Could you give me some examples for each ?

author: agehall
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 06:40:09 am
content: Quote from: 42Bits on April 04, 2019, 06:33:32 amOne works with computers. One works with electronics and one works with other stuff.I think you are asking the wrong questions and therefore the answers will not really give you much information.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 07:17:54 am
content: This is much like saying "Doctor vs Surgeon vs Veterinarian".They all deal with a similar thing but the details are very different.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 07:43:02 am
content: Quote from: 42Bits on April 04, 2019, 06:22:10 amWell you have to read all the course class descriptions to see the difference. Every university is different and every country is different.You have to at least tell us the university name if you want any opinion that's worth anything.But as a general rule, electronics engineering is a subset of the more general electrical engineering course. Computer engineering may or may not be under the electrical engineering department and will be much more heavily software focused and may or may not include all the core basic physics/maths stuff that electrical and electronics will have.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 07:43:20 am
content: I suspect the OP is young, in which case they are starting on their journey of understanding that "answers are easy, but finding the right question is more difficult".They may benefit from readinghttps://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/library-2/good-questions-pique-our-interest-and-dont-waste-our-time-2/

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 07:48:50 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 04, 2019, 07:43:20 amYes indeed. First lesson in this business is learning to phrase your questions right so that you help the respondents focus on giving you focused answer you need. Generic questions will only get generic answers.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 08:23:22 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 04, 2019, 07:43:02 amFrom what I've seen, CE students will often take computer science-y courses in lieu of certain stuff EE students take. For example:http://www.ece.unm.edu/undergraduate/programs.html, in the spring semester of junior year, CE students are taking data structures and algorithms + a technical elective while EE students take Electronics II and EM fields.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 08:26:25 am
content: There is such saying - "There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers"..Electrical Eng. is a broader term, the Electronics Eng. is a subset of it, afaik.Electrical Eng. may also deal with Materials used in EE, High Voltage Power (ie your national grid) distribution systems, Power plants technology, Electro-Mechanical systems, Metrology, Measurement systems, sometimes with Robotics, Automation, etc.Electronics Eng. is also rather more general term - it, for example, covers Microelectronics, Optoelectronics, Radioelectronics, Bioelectronics, etc.All above are more-less dealing with topics related to materials/components/hardware design.Computer Engineering is usually a mix of Electronics and Informatics, with _much_ higher emphasis on "Informatics" topics, however. Therefore "software engineering" oriented.There are universities where the "Computer Engineering" and/or "Informatics" split from more traditional "Electrical Engineering" and became independent few decades back.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 09:16:26 am
content: Quote from: imo on April 04, 2019, 08:26:25 amMost, but not all, of the above is misleading to the point of being wrong.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 09:20:05 am
content: Yeah if its for a university program the thing can be quite specific for a given school. Some might overlap 80% some might overlap almost nothing.Electronics engineering is where you get to the components that make up electronic devices. This is where you learn about transistors and chips. It might include some power electronics/transmission from Electrical Engineering, and it might include things like C or assembler programing from Computer Engineering (This is actually quite likely due to microcontrollers)Electrical engineering is electricity on a higher level. Here you learn about electrical distribution networks, putting together industrial modules such as PLCs, running big motors and generators for industrial use etc. This essentially makes you a more sophisticated version of an electrician(or spaky as you aussies call them.)Computer engineering can vary the most. This could be training you to be an an IT guy that can set up large corporate networks, maintain servers, service computers and other IT work. Or it could go the other way where you are taught the deep details of programing in various languages, writing and porting linux drivers or even programming microcontrolers and other embedded systems, in this direction they are usually also taught a bit of electronics and sometimes given a soldering iron a few times, but don't expect to learn how to practically use transistors.When choosing don't look at the apparent difficulty of the program. All of them are difficult in a different way. Chose by what you would want to do. Is it typing code on a keyboard, soldering stuff at a workbench, or installing massive industrial equipment at a factory.

author: 42Bits
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 09:26:05 am
content: --Electrical Engineering(Main Degree)------Electronics Engineering(Discipline of Main Degree)-------------Computer Engineering(Sub-field of Discipline)What I mean above ^ is that more you move down the list it get more specialised in your degree.So, that are all related by the main degree of somewhat ?

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 10:20:54 am
content: As others have indicated it depends on how the Technical University is organized.There are not firm rules on where the "discipline" or "sub-field" Computer Engineering belongs to.Moreover, it depends on what you understand under "Computer Engineering".Better you look at the organization scheme of the specific University you are interested in (all Universities have got their web pages, imho).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 11:05:30 am
content: From this question we can tell that you haven't bothered to read the link I gave you...Quote from: 42Bits on April 04, 2019, 09:26:05 amNo. (And the wackypedia article on "electrical engineering" is pretty much rubbish)If you want anoverly simpledistinction between electrical and electronic engineering, then:electrical engineering deals with 0.1-400kV, and >10A, and with getting electric power to your home and deskelectronic engineering deals with <50V, <10A, and with using electricity to do thingsComputer engineering deals with the theory of what can be done with computation, as opposed to software engineering which deals with what can be done with computers, and then there is computer programming... The distinctions between those areverygrey, and many engineers consider that "computer engineering" and "software engineering" are oxymorons.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 12:03:25 pm
content: Quote from: 42Bits on April 04, 2019, 09:26:05 amNot necessarily.You are approaching this the wrong way. Simply tell us what universities you are considering and we can take a loot at the courses and then advise you.There are massive differences between countries (this forum is international) an universities within countries.Talking generically about the difference is kinda just pissing in the wind really and won't ultimately help you decide which course is best for you.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 12:06:15 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 04, 2019, 11:05:30 amSome universities only have "Electrical Engineering" degrees, and to make it more "electronic" oriented you have to pick and chose specific electives within that degree.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 12:09:25 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on April 04, 2019, 09:20:05 amMany Electrical Engineering degress won't ever touch anything to do with electrical distribution networks. Generally you'd only cover those sorts of things if you pick a specific elective.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 12:17:39 pm
content: Lets make this easy, the OP is from NSW Australia, so assume Sydney universities, so take UNSW as an example:https://www.engineering.unsw.edu.au/study-with-us/undergraduateElectrical Engineering:https://www.engineering.unsw.edu.au/study-with-us/undergraduate-degrees/electrical-engineering-bemeComputer Engineering:https://www.engineering.unsw.edu.au/study-with-us/undergraduate-degrees/computer-engineeringThey don't offer "Electronics Engineering" as such.Note that the CE degree has the same maths and physics as the EE degree.You can have a "flexible first year":https://www.engineering.unsw.edu.au/study-with-us/undergraduate-degrees/flexible-first-yearUWS also have (had?) a flexible first year where you were everyone was taught electrical, mechanical and civil engineering so that you could swap in the 2nd year if you changed your mind.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 12:59:50 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 04, 2019, 12:06:15 pmI was referring to the terms as used w.r.t. careers and employment, not simply some degrees from some universities in some countries. That may (or may not) help the OP clarify their thinking. IMNSHO it would help the OP if they understood and decided where they wanted to end up, and only thereafter choose a course.It does not confict with your statement(s).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 01:06:11 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 04, 2019, 12:59:50 pmYes, when I think of "electrical" I think of high power stuff as you say.In the case of UNSW post above you have to do a specific Energy post-grad degree to get that sort of specialisation.As a general rules "Electrical Engineering" is just your bog standard engineering degree that involves lots of maths, physics, signal theory, general electronics, and a bunch of electives. High power distribution stuff is usually not included unless you take a specific elective subject.A typical "Electronics Engineering" degree might only differ in one or two extra classes, and for most intents and purposes is the same as an Electrical degree.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 01:13:59 pm
content: UWS has no Electronics Engineering specific degree either:https://www.westernsydney.edu.au/future/study/courses/engineering-courses.htmlNor does UTS:https://www.uts.edu.au/future-students/engineering/undergraduate-courses-0Nor does USydhttps://sydney.edu.au/courses/subject-areas/major/electrical-engineering0.htmlBut all of them teach "electronics" as part of the core curriculumMacquarie seems to be the only one that has a specific electronics degree, but really seems to be just a stream:https://www.mq.edu.au/study/find-a-course/engineering/_

author: frogg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 02:05:08 pm
content: In the US, there are multiple degree accreditation bodies.Here are some examples:https://www.abet.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/E001-18-19-EAC-Criteria-11-29-17.pdfSouthern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on CollegesNew England Commission of Higher Education (NECHE)etc. There are a lot of these.These accreditation programs define both general and specific curriculum for all degree programs, including Electrical Engineering, Electronics Engineering, and Computer Engineering. These accreditation bodies are the authorities for the definition of each program. Individual schools start from these definitions and expound upon them.The US generally follows a hierarchical teaching methodology for engineering:1. Admission to the engineering school (vs. liberal arts)2. Choosing one of three main engineering disciplines: Electrical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, Civil Engineering3. Adding electives to choose specialization.Also note that Computer Science is usually tied to the study of Mathematics, although there's more focus on programming and computing theory than, say, Applied Math students.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 02:53:33 pm
content: I break it down like this:Electrical: Power from generation up to, but not necessarily including, utilization. This includes the design of utility systems, industrial plants, commercial building/lighting and all the way down to residential branch circuits. In other words, 'mains'. electrical and mechanical engineers work together to design a dam and the electrical engineers get the power to your cell phone wall wart. Sure, they will have to include other branches of engineering to keep the power poles from falling down.Electronic: A type of utilization equipment. Networking, wifi, applying microcontrollers, radios, TVs and all the gadgets we use daily including GPS and cell phones. Circuit design and PCB layout fall into this category.Computer Engineering: Design of the internals of processors. The stuff inside that microcontroller and how it all ties together. Logic design, floating point hardware, all the peripherals inside the chip but not necessarily including how to apply the chip or even how to lay it out. Back in the day, this included design of mainframes but there is less of that going on these days.https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/mobile/electrical-and-electronics-engineers.htmComputer Science: Design of algorithms for computer simulation/solution of classes of problems. This will often include designing algorithms to take advantage of specific processors designed by computer engineers and implemented by electronic engineers using power provided by electrical engineers.As to the degree programs themselves, I have no idea how it breaks down but there is very much a difference in focus. Power engineers have little in common with circuit designers.When selecting a major in the US, look through the BLS site above to find out what it pays where you want to live. Look especially at the number of jobs in the field and the expected growth. Then throw out electrical/electronic engineering (BLS lumps them) as low growth and focus on computer science.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 04:03:11 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 04, 2019, 11:05:30 amThat isn't right in most of the US. In the US, "electrical engineering" is the broader term and you can specialize in "electronics" or "power", which are roughly the two things you described. But every university divides these things up differently and has different sets of required courses. In the US there is no mandatory licensing of electrical engineers (although some jobs would require a Professional Engineer certification) so there is no enforced curriculum to match a licensing exam. Other countries will do things differently.QuoteThat is almost completely wrong, at least in the US, and I suspect elsewhere, or at least your wording is quite ambiguous and sounds like the conventional description of computer science or even theoretical computer science. Computer engineering generally deals with the hardware design of computers. So things like cache hierarchy, interconnect interfaces, and a whole host of other things. But again, there is substantial overlap with EE and CS, and the division will depend on university and country.Which reinforces the point many people have made: There is no universal definition of these terms, and there is no point in trying to describe exactly what they are in a context free environment. It is also not important. What is important is what you actually do or want to do.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 04:14:48 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on April 04, 2019, 04:03:11 pmActually... you're right about "computer science". Brain fart.I can't remember ever seeing a "computer engineering" course. Sounds far too specialised to be useful as a first degree - I would expect there to be as many people employed doing what you describe as there are writing compilers (to avoid ambiguity, that's not many!).QuoteYes, especially the last part!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 11:36:19 pm
content: Quote from: frogg on April 04, 2019, 02:05:08 pmHere we have Engineers Australia, and they don't distinguish between disciplines, you are either a graduate member or not.I don't believe there is any engineering degree program in Australia that is not accredited with them.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 11:40:26 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 04, 2019, 02:53:33 pmI think that can be a mistake trying to "chase" or predict the market. First priority should be to do what interests you.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 11:47:23 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 04, 2019, 04:14:48 pmCommon here:https://www.engineering.unsw.edu.au/study-with-us/undergraduate-degrees/computer-engineeringhttps://www.rmit.edu.au/study-with-us/engineering/computer-engineeringhttps://www.idp.com/australia/search/computer-engineering/at those prices...Would you like Arts with your engineering?https://www.idp.com/australia/Categories/Computing-and-IT/Computer-Engineering/Bachelor-of-Engineering-HonoursBachelor-of-Arts-Computer-Engineering/p/PRG-AU-00291735https://www.handbook.unsw.edu.au/undergraduate/programs/2019/3961

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 12:10:28 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 04, 2019, 11:40:26 pmTHIS ^ ^ ^By pursuing a direction that interests you, you may well develop that interest into a passion, which will be motivation in itself to do well. If you try predicting the market to choose a degree, then you risk (a) getting the prediction wrong and (b) hanging a millstone around your neck for the duration, making all those years intolerable.Then there's the simple matter that there's no guarantee that you will find a job that meshes with the degree you get. Sometimes it can be a matter of applying for a job where your degree shows capabilities in the general requirements of that job, but not ticking every single box. Choose a degree that was a chore and the job you get might also turn out to be a chore.However, choose a degree that is founded on what interests you and you will find that degree will have a much better chance of landing you into a job that interests you. What's more, your interest will be noticed and you are more likely to be offered other opportunities.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 12:31:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 04, 2019, 11:40:26 pmYour second priority is to get a well-rounded background so that you can follow along the many twists and turns a career path may take.Often overlooked is how to succeed in corporate and individual politics; learn what matters and what does not; how to network with the right people and how to never burn your bridges along the way.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 12:52:40 am
content: Quote from: Gregg on April 05, 2019, 12:31:55 amThat is very important. A degree is only one part of that and it is not impossible that 5 or 10 years down the track, you could be working in an area for which your degree holds little relevance.QuoteThat is a life lesson. One that will become extremely important (unfortunately) the higher you rise in an organisation. The dangers you will encounter are things that you must be ready for and may come from directions you never suspect. The politics you see surrounding Government on the nightly news is nothing to some of the politics I have seen.

author: sward
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 03:48:36 am
content: I haven't heard of an Electronics Engineering degree, only an "Electronics Engineer" (which is an Electrical Engineer that works with or specializes in electronics, as oppose to say, power systems).At my school, we have Electrical Engineering and Computer Systems Engineering.They are quite different, with the latter taking far more on the subject of computers, as you might expect.You can often see theRoadmapsfor different programs with all of the course requirements, and you can look up what each course is.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 03:59:35 am
content: Quote from: 42Bits on April 04, 2019, 06:22:10 amThese terms have a historical significance. The engineer specialized in anything electrical or magnetic was first called an electrical engineer. By the late fifties an electrical engineer more specialized in TV, radio and telephone systems was started to be called an electronics engineer. This same electronics engineer was summoned to design computers and this further specialization created the computer engineer in the late seventies/early eighties.But as others pointed out previously, these distinctions tend to get blurred a little.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 05:54:09 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 04, 2019, 04:14:48 pmIt's offered at UCSD for example, and many students choose it. The course content overlaps somewhat with EE:http://ece.ucsd.edu/undergraduate/computer-engineering-major

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 08:14:15 am
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on April 05, 2019, 03:59:35 amYes, very often there are historical reasons for why names and studies evolved a certain way. In Spain, over a century ago, electric motors, transformers, generators, etc were covered by "Industrial Engineers". Let's say "power". Telegraphy, telephone, radio, TV, etc. were "Telecommunications Engineers". Let's say "signals". Then when computers came along both schools would have a program on computers but may be with a slightly different focus. Then a Computer science school would open but they would focus more on software than on hardware. So, there are many different degrees that overlap each other to a great extent.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 08:18:08 am
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on April 05, 2019, 03:59:35 amMy alma mater had the first Electronic Engineering degree in the country, in 1947.Personally I chose (and would still choose) to avoid a course that specialised too much too early. Examples: telecom engineering, computer engineering, but of course that would depend on my seeing the specifics of the syllabus.I suspect I was unusual in knowing what I wanted to do before uni, and having sufficient knowledge to be able to usefully distinguish between the various courses' output. That was helped by an Asimov short story that remains just as valid and relevant:http://www.abelard.org/asimov.php(Profession by Isaac Asimov (1957))QuoteYes indeed, blurred for good reasons. But there are also significant distinctions.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 05:41:54 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 05, 2019, 12:52:40 amVery true. Two of the most senior people in a software company we did business with years ago had degrees in Biology and Astronomy. I asked the Astronomy guy WTF, and he replied "I love astronomy but I found out there aren't that many paying jobs in the field." Hence the danger for folks who "follow their bliss" or whatever and get doctorates in topics for which there is near-zero demand. They end up with massive student debt and mostly saying phrases like "Would you like fries with that?"You definitely need to do what you love doing, but with a healthy dose of market-based reality included.EDIT: I'll risk offending a few people and add that I haven't been overly impressed with folks who have only Computer Science (CS) degrees. I fired one such person years ago when it became evident they didn't understand binary, hex, ASCII, and how to relate one to another. I meanSERIOUSLY.Yet this person had a great sounding resume and had passed through interviews with multiple senior Engineers to get the job. I paid a lot more personal attention to hiring decisions after that.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 01:10:44 am
content: In defense of CS (I have degrees in CS and mathematics), a LOT of undergrad CS programs just plainsuck. Fortunately, my school has one of the better CS programs out there. Freshmen coming in are required to take a 101 level course where they start early with basics that everyone should know. like converting integer bases. They work through the excellent "From NAND to Tetris" as well. The very next classes are very rigorous but well designed courses in C, basic data structures and algorithms, computer system organization, and basic system programming. Students who survive that sequence are generally very well prepared not only for demanding upper division courses but also real world programming. The best part is, there's a very good support structure for those classes with lots of more experienced undergrad TAs who grade homework and provide office hours during the week and on weekends.However, a lot of CS programs don't provide anything like that. And it shows in the abilities of the students they produce.Many I've met can recite the best big-O algorithm and all the CS theory you want, but at the end of the day, they can't program their way out of a wet paper bag.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 01:36:52 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on April 05, 2019, 05:41:54 pmPhil who you've seen on the blog a bit has a PhD is laser physics. Apparently that was a hot thing at the time but turns out there are no jobs in the field, not here anyway. At one point he ended up selling TV's at David Jones (that's a retail store here, seriously). Realised the only options were go back and teach or research at a uni, or spend several more years on top of his already very long PhD to become a Patent attorney. Albeit one that specialises in optics and other stuff for which his PhD has been useful. Now earns very good money in a fairly stable market segment, but the job is a chore (imagine charging and accounting for every 6 minutes of your time every day).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 01:38:30 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on April 05, 2019, 05:41:54 pmI interviewed someone who's resume said they were a microcontroller expert, top uni etc, but couldn't name two brands of microcontrollers

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 07:58:53 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 06, 2019, 01:38:30 amWell, yes. There are bovine excrement artistes everywhere. We've all interviewed people where we had to lead them to some answers to basic questions.But that doesn't say anything useful about onetypeof course over another. It does indicate something about the specific candidate and, if you see sufficient people from the same course then it may indicate something about that course.I remember having a vacation student working for me. He had left the same course I had done a few years earlier, and gone to another university and a course with more or less the same syllabus. He was dreadful, and his eventually getting a degree from the second university lead me to distrust that institution thereafter. Over the years afterwards it became clear that distrust was shared with many people.Overall,for the kind of position's I've needed to fill, I had decent success by choosing candidates that:had a reasonable degree from a course/institution where they would have had to learn the theorybeen able to demonstrate personal projects where they had put that theory into practice and learned from their mistakesTheory without practice is mental masturbation; practice without theory is blind fumbling. We need both.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 06:47:43 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 06, 2019, 01:36:52 amInteresting. I do a LOT of side work on patents and have developed a pretty good skill set at it. I also charge a lot less per hour than Patent Attorneys!My son, who is headed to university this fall for EE, is seriously considering getting his law degree afterwards specifically to go into Patent practice. You're absolutely correct, having a technical degree/background makes you very powerful in the Patent world.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 06:49:54 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 06, 2019, 07:58:53 amI didn't mean to cast derision upon ALL CS degrees. However, that particular degree does seem to have a higher than normal incidence of, shall I say, "incompletely educated" graduates. Not sure why, just reporting what I've experienced.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 08:53:55 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on April 06, 2019, 06:49:54 pmI know what you are referring to by "incompletely educated", and don't fundamentally disagree. But even then...I'vealwaysbeen incompletely educated foreverynew job I've taken. For the more interesting jobs it wasinevitablethat I would be incompletely educated, since there wasnopre-existing education in that topic! What was more important was the drive and ability to learn new things.You can never get all attributes in one person, be that personality or technical knowledge. Doctors are "incompletely educated" in the art of inserting needles, and nurses are "incompletely educated" in the art of diagnosing cancer. What you need is a team where one person's deficiencies are "masked" by another person's strengths.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 09:15:33 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 06, 2019, 08:53:55 pmYes, but I'm correcting for that. To extend Dave's comment above, a new hire may not have memorized the native Assembly language for a microcontroller on a given project - but I think it's fair to expect someone who presents themselves (on paper and in person) as "experienced" with microcontrollers to be able to name a few!If someone is fresh out of school, there is still a baseline of knowledge (if not actual experience) that is fair to presume. If a EE or CS comes out of school not knowing binary, hex, etc. their education is INCOMPLETE, period, and they have a legitimate complaint against their "university".If someone claims on their resume/CV and in person that they have some amount of experience, sure - that experience may not be spot-on the project in question. But if they lack even the fundamental skills that would equip them to ramp up on the project and become an asset - instead of a liability - then the incompleteness of their education isn't just a lack of familiarity with the specifics of the project. It's a lack of basic knowledge and experience.It comes down to what you expected vs. what the person represented they could reasonably deliver. Obviously you scale your expectations, but someone who escaped university with a CS degree without knowing (in my example) binary and hex is less than a "fresh out of school" greenie... they simply do NOT possess a Computer Science education no matter what their diploma might claim. Likewise, someone who escaped university with an EE degree who doesn't know Ohm's Law simply does NOT possess an Electrical Engineering education no matter what their diploma might claim. These are basic, fundamental skills that are part of the education represented by the degree in question.Could they BECOME qualified? Quite possibly - but did you hire them as an intern expecting to participate in theirbasiceducation, or did you hire them as an individual contributor who could be expected to spin up to speed in a reasonable time? There are places for both types of people, but the former makes a terrible substitute for the latter.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 09:45:03 pm
content: I don't disagree, but then...In my first job I knew nothing about these newfangled optical fibres, nor radars. But I learned and designed and implemented systems in those areas.In my second job I knew nothing about lung ventilators, semi-custom ICs, testing building materials, measuring road surfaces, AI languages. But I learned...In another job I knew nothing about these newfangled computer networks, nor (nonexistent) WLANs, nor SS7 telco signalling systems and the vagueries of cellular propagation. But I learned...Etc.

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 11:33:19 pm
content: Not to confuse things, but my alma mater, UC Irvine, offer all of these interrelated degrees:Computational Science M.S.2, Ph.D.Computer Engineering B.S.Computer Game Science B.S.Computer Science B.S., M.C.S., M.S., Ph.D.Computer Science and Engineering B.S.Data Science B.S.Electrical and Computer Engineering M.S., Ph.D.Electrical Engineering B.S.Engineering B.S., M.S., Ph.D.Human Computer Interaction and Design M.H.C.I.D.Informatics B.S., M.S., Ph.D.Information and Computer Science B.S., M.S.Mathematical, Computational, and Systems Biology M.S., Ph.D.Networked Systems M.S., Ph.D.Software Engineering B.S., M.S., Ph.D.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 11:40:34 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on April 06, 2019, 06:47:43 pmIt does seem an awfully long way to go about getting into an industry though. A PhD takes what, maybe 7-8 years, and then throw on another couple of years to train as a patent attorney. That's why they love PhD people, it looks impressive to their clients, and they rely on that probably the majority of PhD people had no intention of ever ending up in that career, but they were sort of forced into it due to lack of well paying jobs in the field.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2019, 03:23:27 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 06, 2019, 11:40:34 pmI think it can be done in six years, if a BSEE is sufficient (rather than a full PhD). Four for the BS degree, then two more for the JD to become an attorney on top of it.As a side note, my son mentioned his possible plans to an attorney recently and the latter described an internship program that nets you your law degree for zero tuition. Not sure of the details but this guy was very enthusiastic, "There's absolutely no reason to pay for law school. When you're serious about this, contact me." So if he ends up wanting to pursue this path he has some options. My guess is he'll get out of school, start working in electronics, and never look elsewhere!

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2019, 03:29:40 pm
content: Well here is a good run down of the contents of electroncis engineering degree (in UK)https://massey276.wixsite.com/electronicsdegree

author: KMoffett
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2019, 01:56:09 pm
content: Profiles of Electronics related Engineeringhttps://www.eeweb.com/profile/kaylamatthews/articles/the-best-2019-college-degrees-if-you-want-to-be-an-electronics-engineer?utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=ad&utm_medium=InspiringDesign-20190410Ken

author: whalphen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2019, 02:48:47 pm
content: I do volunteer work in electronics with local high school students. Unfortunately, those thinking about college often have a poor understanding of curriculum and career options. I always advise them to consider the math requirements as they make their choice. If they are good in math (they typically are because our local high schools provide outstanding math instruction), I strongly encourage them to consider engineering. Many of them think they want to study computer science -- because they are all familiar with computers. I encourage them to look at engineering curriculums related to computers. My objective is to have them look closely at engineering in general, get value from their math skills, and pick a curriculum near their area of interest. Once they get into the first year of engineering, they get a much better idea of what engineering is and they get a much better idea of the specific engineering path they want to take.My own daughter, for example, thought she wanted to pursue computer science -- just like most of her peers. I knew she was good in math, so I suggested she give computer engineering a try for the first year. She could switch to computer science if she decided that engineering wasn't for her. So she started with the engineering curriculum. She did well in the math and science courses. In college she got a much better understanding of what engineering entails. She took a volunteer position on a biomedical research project and loved it, and, now finishing up her second year, has committed to a biomedical engineering curriculum. That's pretty far removed from computer science!The point is that many students won't know what they should do until they try it. And, indeed, they should keep options open until they have a good understanding of what those options are. Also, the math demands of an engineering curriculum may frighten some students. But they need to understand the math may not be any more challenging than what they've been through in high school, just a continuation of the challenge for a couple more years.All engineering curriculums provide a good set of tools for engineering disciplines. Different schools have different engineering options which focus those tools on different types of problems. It's hard to know the exact focus unless you look closely at the courses offered. It's great if a student can aim at an option which is close to their area of interest. But, they probably won't have a good understanding until they actually get well into the first year. They should keep their eyes and options open to find the best fit for them once they've gotten into college, discussed it with advisors and other students, and have a better understanding of what it's all about. In the long run, the better the fit for their personal interests, the more they will enjoy and succeed with the curriculum and career.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2019, 03:21:38 pm
content: Quote from: whalphen on April 10, 2019, 02:48:47 pmBest post in this thread, and THANK YOU for the time and effort you contribute to the kids in your area!