How come this board is so cheap? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 06:45:50 pm
content: I am looking at this board, 3 USD in quantities of 1, shipped to the US. There are other sellers for about the same price. Sparkfun sells a similar one for X3 + shipping. How come? Should I expect lower reliability? Incompatibility? Other problems?http://www.ebay.com/itm/Arduino-PRO-MINI-ATMEGA328-5V-16M-MWC-avr328P-Development-Board-/271251071444?ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123Here is the sparkfun versionhttps://www.sparkfun.com/products/11114

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 07:05:45 pm
content: That's China for you.Cheaply produced, under working conditions that might or might not be exactly legal in western countries. From cheap parts obtained from strange sources. By workers paid little compared to western countries. Maybe in a ghost shift. And with a postal service/shipping service that must almost literally ship small packages nearly for free. Oh, and typically excessively wrapped in bubble wrap. The value of the bubble wrap might make up half of the total value.

author: jaxbird
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 07:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on January 06, 2014, 07:05:45 pmIMO it's naive to think that Sparkfun doesn't get their boards from exactly the same source as the Chinese ebay seller.They just have a brand that allows them to make more profit.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 07:38:38 pm
content: Quote from: jaxbird on January 06, 2014, 07:18:36 pmI think it is the same source. They probably just forgot to turn off the soldering machine, and made some thousand extra.I'm actually suprised, that it costs 3 dollars. There is basically nothing on that board.

author: BBQ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 07:42:07 pm
content: Quote from: jaxbird on January 06, 2014, 07:18:36 pmAnd some manual labour in the US during packaging and shipping which adds a lot to the price compared to a Chinese seller.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 07:43:00 pm
content: Or maybe change your question and ask:How come this board is so expensive at Sparkfun ?David.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 07:48:45 pm
content: I've always wondered how somebody in China can sell an itemwith shipping includedfor less than I could mail the same package across town. After all, it's the same USPS that transports the package once it enters the US. It's not like we have Chinese mailmen running around everywhere.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 07:54:24 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on January 06, 2014, 06:45:50 pmI'll let you know as I bought 3 yesterday.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 07:59:05 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on January 06, 2014, 07:48:45 pmThey can make indistinguishable electronics. How hard is it to print a stamp?I had orders from ebay (buy it now) which had more stamp on it than what I payed.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 08:03:02 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 06, 2014, 07:59:05 pmOr they just followed the advice that is often given to students here: You don't need that math and all that other stuff. All you need is passion.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 08:05:19 pm
content: I picked up 5 of those last month, the one I used seems to work OK. It's always nice to have things like this in the parts box. Cant beat the price and they are tiny.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 08:11:01 pm
content: FYI It's my understanding the the Chinese govt subsidizes shipping to increase exports.

author: romantronixlab
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 08:15:35 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on January 06, 2014, 07:48:45 pmI have wondered the exactly the same thing.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 08:20:08 pm
content: OK, I decided to take the 'risk' and ordered 3.I already have one from Sparkfun and it is very useful. I wish they would have a version with header holes half chopped so I can solder it directly to a PCB, without headers.

author: AndersAnd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 08:41:08 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 06, 2014, 07:38:38 pmThere's a ATMEGA328P-AU on it. With a reel of 2000 ATMEGA328P-AU, the unit cost is$1.94at Mouser:http://www2.mouser.com/Semiconductors/Embedded-Processors-Controllers/Microcontrollers-MCU/8-bit-Microcontrollers-MCU/_/N-a85ik?Keyword=ATMEGA328P-AU&FS=TrueA single ATMEGA328P-AU cost$3.36+ shipping at Mouser, that's more than they charge for the whole board including worldwide shipping.Besides the ATmega328P there's 1 LDO, 1 resonator, 1 push button, 2 LEDs, 6 capacitors, 5 resistors, 1 PCB and some headers + the cost of assembly, handling and shipping.Schematic:https://dlnmh9ip6v2uc.cloudfront.net/datasheets/Dev/Arduino/Boards/Arduino-Pro-Mini-v13.pdfBtw. the Arduino Pro Mini ATMEGA328P board is sold even cheaper here:http://www.ebay.com/itm/360732394240$2.83including an additional 6-pin right angle header compared to the one mentioned by in the first post and this also has free shipping.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 08:46:57 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on January 06, 2014, 07:48:45 pmIt's even more surprising when you learn that the price for the pro-minis domestically in china (on Taobao) is about USD $2.5! In fact, if you were in china and bought one unit only on taobao, by the time domestic shipping was added you'd probaby pay considerably more than somebody in the US would on ebay (of course it would arrive in a couple days instead of a month, but still)!

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 08:49:47 pm
content: Here's another example. I won't post anymore in order to avoid derailing the thread.http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-DC-DC-Buck-Converter-Step-Down-Module-LM2596-Power-Supply-Output-1-23V-30V-/251066005460Go check the price of an LM2596 at your favorite vendor, then try to figure out how this sells for $1.73 with "free shipping".

author: jwm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 08:55:21 pm
content: Quote from: jaxbird on January 06, 2014, 07:18:36 pmUsually what they add is quality control and customer support, which are fairly expensive relative to the raw cost of materials. For instance, the step of testing new flash memory costs several times more than the actual full production of the chip itself, skimping on the QC step can reduce the cost by an order of magnitude. It is not unusual to pass QC onto the reseller, but that is not always obvious from these direct sell ebay listings that you are getting straight from the production line pieces that need further testing. Fine if you are a hobbiest using a small handful you can characterize, not so much if you are integrating them into a million of some product.John

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 09:05:51 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on January 06, 2014, 08:49:47 pmWhen I was in China I bought several of them at $0.25 USD a piece.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 09:24:11 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on January 06, 2014, 08:49:47 pmBecause they made their own version LM2596 and you pay a little more* at warehouse vendors.*several times the price

author: Alphatronique
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 09:25:26 pm
content: Hiyup maby Digi-key or arrow make lot of money sell us partor that chiness have some trick that we not knot ,i run myself a assembly houseand even if labor cost noting ,build and run a assembly line still cost money (maintenance ,electricity etc etc )and it sell board for less that price off the main part alone ,how do it do that ?ok it sold 16,000 unit but still not a volume that justify that priceonly thing i see was1-) got part from very strange source2-) that all come from same giant fab that build hundred of different design in million QTHand it Global buying volume make that possible ,if you order 1 million of LM2596 for customer X you mayadd 15,00 extra for that ebay smaller run .... and got it a the million pricebut did it wort the money/Trouble to sell something whit less that 1$ profit ?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 09:38:18 pm
content: Just found this on ebay. $3.5 for 20 soic 8 adapters, shipped and taxed. I payed almost double than that at a local store for a single adapter.http://www.ebay.com/itm/20-PCS-SOP8-SO8-SOIC8-SMD-to-DIP8-Adapter-PCB-Board-Convertor-Double-Sides-244A-/171038348049?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d2ae1311I love China.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 09:48:47 pm
content: Wow that's really good. Sold and thank you.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 10:01:54 pm
content: "aby Digi-key or arrow make lot of money sell us part "They do: mark-up on one-off orders is like 100 percent. Plus, they make money off shipping too.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 10:05:00 pm
content: "MO it's naive to think that Sparkfun doesn't get their boards from exactly the same source as the Chinese ebay seller."That 7 usd extra you paid when buying from sparkfun also buys you the previlige to be ripped off by sparkfun - something some of us apparently thought worth buying.

author: Alphatronique
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 11:37:02 pm
content: Hithink that spark fun do it production in houseit just buy a near 200K $ MyData pick place machine ... so must use it O0but PCB and part come probably from asian ..it already post something like buy batch from asian of fake AVRr chip ..

author: DakLak
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 11:49:13 pm
content: I buy robotics supplies, in person, inShangHaiand ShenZhen, Guangdong Province and the economies realised are through technology and techniques.Many of the named US companies have their products made in China - often on the same production line! Whether you are vacuum cleaner company selling overpriced robots to the US military or a robot supply shop, they all come from the same places.Dagu, now selling direct in the USA, is a typical OEM (white label) manufacturer. They make for at least four well known US companies.As for making things 'cheap' the few pennies, Yuan, cents saved are not worth the effort - the major savings in PCBs is the base material. Buying IC's in the hundreds of thousands is also a good way to get ICs labelled the way you want - even blank - or with the pinout configurations changed.Even though I am based in VietNam, a sizeable part of my company's income is derived from supplying elevator control boards forelevators(lifts) whose manufacturers has ceased business. All my replacement boards are 'copied' from originals in China.X-ray machines reveal IC die shapes and the hidden secrets of multilayer boards. Have a PIC with a locked up program in it? No problem - a few wafts of sulphuric or nitric acid fumes will reveal an IC's die and some delicate work under a high-end Japanese microscope will allow the e-fuse protection to be removed and the protection reversed so the program can be read and duplicated.So you can buy with confidence - the savings, as others have implied, are realised as the Chinese are following the maxim:Fortunes can be made from profits thinner than paper.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 12:19:34 am
content: QuoteWell said.However, you have to respect people's right to be ignorant. So let the crazy think crazy.

author: SArepairman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 03:07:53 am
content: i am surprised that a PIC can perform a sophisticated enough function to merit such effort, but then again you make it sound that with the right equipment the job can be done in hours, I guess its a small price to pay for battle tested code that you can be assured will work.How much does a high end japanese microscope cost?and do you have a list of easily compromised microcontrollers?What happens if you run into a more obscure micro controller that does not have a known disarming procedure? Is it really cheaper to pay a specialist to determine how to deactivate the protection then to rewrite black box code? Or is it really that trivial?

author: Alphatronique
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 03:23:18 am
content: Hicheck that treadhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/protection-in-mcu/Chipwork have alredy publish Die map and image of Xbox-one and Last playsation ...Russian or China may read you almost any MCU for under 2000$ now ...as i tell to my customer now try to hack prof a design was totally futile ...but DakLak i knot about volume but many of that ebay stuff was quite low volumei remember have see induction welder board that sell for far less that BOM costthat still amazed me ..

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 04:12:09 am
content: Most likely knockoff parts and somebody is just trying to push them out the door. Just get rid of them kinda thing. It helps that china subsidized that junk.

author: DakLak
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 05:14:12 am
content: @SArepairman:Velleman make kits and utility boards. It is cheap enough to strip their chips for duplicating.When I doPCB tear-downsI use a local hospital medical technician (and he uses the hospital X-ray) for track location onmultilevel boardsandIC die outlines. He uses both power and a focussing technique to probe the different levels.My employer also makes military/commercial robots and recently we have seen damaged/abandoned US robots from Afghanistan on sale - including the iRobot - and all the software and strip-downs can be bought for a couple of hundred dollars a set. We are also into IR IFF systems.If you are interested in MESH radio, Afghanis collect them from the war fields and sell them for a few dollars. The US scatters 'rocks' around which are actually sensor units that detect various things.These days assumenothing but nothingis'corporate confidentiall'. That's in addition to GCHQ and NSA!E-fuses are easy to locate - there is usually a metallic screen protecting them. This has to be carefully removed and then all the e-fuses are exposed and can be reset. After that it is simply a matter of copying the software.ALLe-fuses can be exposed and neutralised.I don't know thecost of these microscopes- lets say they are notthatexpensive given the workshops they are housed in. The area where nitric or sulphuric acid fumes are used is far better protected!@Alphatronique:IMO, theCinChinadoes not stand forCheap- many high quality products come out of China as we all know. But if you want 'poor quality' they can do that, too.Even though I visit these Chinese workshops/manufacturing plants I cannot see how some of their prices are so low. Our PCBs were routinely subjected to adhesion tests where a weight was hung soldered to tracks and I never saw one fail.I have bought laser cutters and water abrasive cutters from China and they are all solid stuff - our water cutter runs 365/7/24 (except for Tet) - yet it withstands all the heavy workload.Some e-Bay stuff is made onspec. A few tens or hundreds are made and when they get responses then they crank up production.Samsung Note 3cell handsets are being made inVietNamand the quality is there. I have thousands of PCBs made here in VN and the prices are low yet the base material good (sourced from China).How can an electronic calliper, with LCD readout AND a digital interface, be retailed for USD$15? They are substantially mechanical.Theaverage runis measured in500or1000pieces, then they stop and see if any upgrades are needed then on to the next run.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 05:37:00 am
content: If the govt in Canada would subsidize shipping I could imagine companies coming from everywhere to set up shop. But of course that is just one small aspect of this whole thing. Maybe we can blame Walmart.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 06:03:51 am
content: One thing to remember is China produces lots of expensive stuff as well as cheap stuff, but because they produce pretty much everything (exaggeration) in the world then the quantities of Chinese produced kit (expensive or cheap) is going to be large.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 06:12:25 am
content: Quote from: DakLak on January 07, 2014, 05:14:12 amI guess its just the matter of time one of these will ended up here in this forum as a tear down thread.

author: jmaja
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 06:42:28 am
content: Quote from: rdl on January 06, 2014, 08:49:47 pmOctopart shows $0.70 for the ON Semiconductor version of that. Probably it is much cheaper in large volumes.http://octopart.com/partsearch#!?q=%20LM2596The shipping part of the equation is harder to understand.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 06:45:42 am
content: Doesn't the Chinese government subsidise postage to the west (quite heavily)?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 06:50:25 am
content: Quote from: aargee on January 07, 2014, 06:45:42 amEven it doesn't, it should be safe to assume cost of maintaining the whole China national post (infrastructures + wages etc) should be cheaper than the west right ?

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 06:57:23 am
content: Quote from: aargeeYes they do. I've had a few occasions where I got major differences in quotes form China and USA/Europe/etc for a same item -and this is NOT just the old trick of making a product cheaper and hiding the cost/profit in shipping. I've had differences of$500 <> $25 (a 3D microscope). As well as - when I've ASKED why the shipping was cheap and they had no problem answering.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 07:06:45 am
content: Quote:Quote

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 07:40:26 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 07, 2014, 07:06:45 amDo you believe that the unspecified portion is a significant contribution to the X3 price?

author: DakLak
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 09:38:30 am
content: @BravoV:International Postal Ratesare set by theInternational Postal Union. It is also the mechanism whereby postal settlements between countries are effected.I have found that Chinese suppliers often use carriers other than the usual suspects -UPS, Fedex,etc. - who access the discount wholesale rates offered by the very same big forwarders. Guaranteeing delivery costs, whereas 2-3 day delivery is used to fill up containers.One carrier, JNA of Singapore, is 50% of UPS/Fedex and delivers in2 days to North America.

author: lapm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 09:39:13 am
content: I pretty much build my base sortment of electronics components from these cheap ebay deals.. Ok it takes couple weeks to deliver, but i just cant get better price from local dealers.Dont know how they do it, but seems good feedback sellers are reliable and selling what they advertise. And im not complaining their prices.. Just at christmas time i used 20 euros to get me some more use full components and modules. Would have cost near 140 euros if bough from local sources...I think only things i'm going to buy locally is oscilloscope and some other high price equipment. That way i can complain to someone that's actually speaking my language instead of chinese...

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 01:58:23 pm
content: I have heard (but not experienced this magnitude) that it is all about relationships, and if you have a good relationship with a supplier you can get 1 or 1000 pieces of small discretes (like SMD resistors and capacitors) for the same price - it's not much more than the price of the raw material. They become practically free.

author: Prime73
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 02:55:15 pm
content: I hear quite often "knockoff parts" and "fake chip" in regards to these cheap deals from China. Question is though: how can one make a fake chip that functions as the "original one"? I would assume it would be an approximately the same effort, same lane, etc. Why bother? Are there any actual examples that show a side by side comparison of a "knockoff part" vs its expensive counterpart - a "genuine part" that prove a degraded performance or something say in the above mentioned ATMEGA?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 03:11:39 pm
content: QuoteGreat question.Unfortunately, for some people it is far easier to perpetuate rumors / falsehood than to investigate or to think.

author: SArepairman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 03:19:58 pm
content: Well I also know they sell certain things cheap, like there was a certain DDS module that had an incorrect filter installed on it (a low pass filter at 70 MHz instead of 50 MHz I believe). Rumor had it that cost to rework the board made selling uneconomical, so they just moved the boards to cut their losses.And I guess the only way to protect MCU code is to put fanatical men with cigarettes and guns around the MCU.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 03:23:08 pm
content: QuoteThey do have 70Mhz filters on them. Not sure if they are "incorrect" or not.QuoteCorrecting those filters means dropping in comparable parts of different values - just a new production run. If the rumor were correct, you would have expected some people producing those modules with the "correct" filters.QuoteI agree.

author: SArepairman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 03:26:29 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on January 07, 2014, 03:23:08 pmI think the story went that they had a HUGE production run. SO I guess MANY boards were sold out of spec, but you can still get proper ones.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 03:30:14 pm
content: QuoteI tend to view those stories with a grain of salt.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 03:36:28 pm
content: I just did a search on Taobao for ad9850. Some of those chips go for 80 cents on a 1-off basis. I am sure you can do better if you negotiate for a volume buy.They may be new or "re-packaged".

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 04:28:39 pm
content: I can see $5 "audio grade" electrolytics being faked: cheap cap with a "Panasonic" wrapper - easy fake. I can see fake $3 MOSFETs: relabel a lower specced or generic part. $1.50 MCUs and $0.75 regulators? Not likely, just not worth the effort, even if you sell 100K.

author: SArepairman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 04:34:57 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on January 07, 2014, 03:36:28 pmits ridiclous considering the 100 of quantity from AD is like 20$.!

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 04:40:05 pm
content: QuoteThat's why some people in China are making a killing on this.By the time it is no long ridiculous to everybody else, there is no money to be made here. Pure capitalism.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 05:34:08 pm
content: Quote from: Prime73 on January 07, 2014, 02:55:15 pmTry running a legit company, then see how much it would save you if you dropped the QA, and didn't have to bother sourcing materials from legit suppliers and didn't have to check for the correct paperwork, and then also stopped caring about how many long term relationships you could build and whether anyone thought your kit was any good or not.

author: AndersAnd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 05:48:04 pm
content: The Chinese company LogicGreen has made an ATmega88 clone named LGT8F88A, but I don't think they have an ATmega328 clone (yet?).Read this topic about the ATmega88 cloneLogicGreen LGT8F88A:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/chinese-atmega88-cloneLGT8F88A VS ATmega88Ahttp://www.lgtic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/LGT8F88A_vs_ATMega88A.pdfMigrating from ATMega88 to LGT8F88Ahttp://www.lgtic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/migrating_from_atmega88_to_lgt8f88a_v1.0.pdf

author: Prime73
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 07:00:01 pm
content: thanks for the link. However it's about two different chips. One could think about the LGT8F88A as a "fake" ATmega88, but I don't think it's a fair thought. These are two different chips. At least that's how I see it.

author: envisionelec
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 07:52:53 pm
content: In the same vein of cheaper versions of chips, there are many Chinese fabs that make clones of the parts. For example, I have on my desk a clone of a Tripath amplifier that combines the input stage and power stage in one chip vs two discrete chips. The cost is a lower S/N ratio, but the upsides are huge - just 30 cents each for a 10W (10%THD) amplifier that produces little heat!

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 11:14:48 pm
content: Quote from: don.r on January 07, 2014, 04:28:39 pmDon't be so sure about that. Linear regulators are indeed cheap, but I believe regs with smaller dies (and thus power handling) are not uncommon.Add to that "domestic market" parts, which use the same part numbers as a western company, but have different performance. For example, I have a hundred or two AMS1117-5 regulators, which are on tape, and have the appropriate markings, but in no way are they AMS parts, for starters if you go above about 10v input, they flake out.They were sold as AMS parts.After a while I found a datasheet that broadly matches their observed performance:http://www.sz-xiangshuo.com/templates/default/images/AMS1117.pdfCompare the actual from AMS:http://www.advanced-monolithic.com/pdf/ds1117.pdf

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 11:24:29 pm
content: Quote2nd sourced parts are quite common: ON did it with Toshiba, Fairchild did it with many other OEMs as well. LM317 for example can be sourced form multiple vendors, as are 431 and other parts.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 11:31:04 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on January 07, 2014, 11:24:29 pmThat's true but they generally have the same or better specs than the "original" and are clear that they are their own brand.Not always so in china.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 11:45:32 pm
content: QuoteI don't know. Wouldn't that make them a different part?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 06:36:18 am
content: Not always. Transistors are often second sourced with the alternate parts being some other transistor that may be a lot better than the original, but which still meets all the specs. Thus you might have a higher voltage rating and higher transisiton frequency device with higher gain on a different process used as a low power medium gain unit. Often it works but sometimes this will bite you with oscillation which is not present in the original device. Often occurs with audio amplifiers where the output devices are very slow planar devices and the replacements are epi devices that are magnitudes faster and the lead inductance causes them to oscillate where the originals would not.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 01:28:15 pm
content: QuoteI actually would love to see a few of those beasts. Datasheets for the original parts and alternate parts would be helpful for such a comparison.

author: johnh
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 08:43:25 pm
content: Most of postage cost is born by receiving country. All China Post has to do is sort by the destination country. High volume customers might already do this. Most of the cost is then born by the receiving countries postal system, which has to sort and distribute those millions of packages that come out of China/HongKong.

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 12:38:24 am
content: Quote from: johnh on January 08, 2014, 08:43:25 pmExactly, this isn't helping here at the moment. Australia Post reckons an increasing cost of doing business is sorting and delivering the increasing number of inbound packages and parcels. More parcels that don't fit on postie bikes = more parcel contractors = more expense, none of which they can claim from the recipient. So the money comes from domestic and outbound postal charge increases, which further discourages local companies trying to export.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 01:45:17 pm
content: Quote from: tronixstuff on January 09, 2014, 12:38:24 amSo you are saying that the loss because of the incoming stuff is compensated by increasing the price of the outgoing stuff. There must be a law against this.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 03:13:33 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 09, 2014, 01:45:17 pmWhy? The postal services need to at least break even. The alternative is that they charge the receiver an extra tariff for each overseas package but that would be rather inefficient.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 03:24:25 pm
content: That is what the post office does here. Still cheaper than a courier, who charges even more for the same delivery.

author: Orpheus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 06:13:57 pm
content: Quote from: SArepairman on January 07, 2014, 03:19:58 pmWould they force us to smoke the cigarettes at gunpoint? Or just fire the cigarettes directly into us?

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2014, 02:42:40 am
content: Finally received mine. Not for those in a hurry.They look fine and legit. Work fine too.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2014, 09:06:00 am
content: Quote from: don.r on January 09, 2014, 03:13:33 pmWhen I'm sending a mail, I dont care about the financial problems of the post office. The only thing I'm paying for is to send my stuff from A to B. This method, to charge people more is fraudulent. Just imagine this for other businesses:"This is an all you can eat restaurant, please step on the scale. We are charging fat people more because they eat more."

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2014, 02:14:08 pm
content: QuoteThat's what matters in the end.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2014, 02:14:48 pm
content: QuoteThat's actually done millions of times every day, to avoid moral hazard.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2014, 03:03:11 pm
content: I always assumed these parts weren't purchased by those chinese suppliers. They do a lot of manufacturing for a lot of places, and there are always waste parts in parts reels. Those don't get tossed out, always.

author: Buzz239
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 09:22:18 pm
content: How is the board programed? A USB to serial perhaps?Gary

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 01:17:20 am
content: The pro minis are serial; Pro Micros are usb.There are two versions of Pro Micros out there. The shorter ones are pin-to-pin compatible to pro mini and are sold as such. The longer ones are the real deal and are closer to Leonardo than Pro Mini.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 01:32:05 am
content: Quote from: Buzz239 on February 17, 2014, 09:22:18 pmUSB/Serial (e.g. FTDI Basic) or ICSP, both are supported by the Arduino IDE.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 02:55:39 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on January 06, 2014, 07:48:45 pmInternational mail is strange. The destination country (USA/Australia/Canada/etc.) does not receive any monetary compensation from the shipping country (China/HK/etc.), but basically every country agrees to deliver mail sent from every other country. There are certain explicit reciprocal agreements in place between certain countries that override this implicit agreement, but not in this case. This is the reason that they can do this cheaply. China post only take a few cents postage, throws everything in a big shipping container destined for USA/etc., and lets them sort it out and deliver itat their cost. Of course, the USA/etc. is welcome to do the same, but naturally there are not a lot of western companies exporting cheap goods in small parcels to China, and even there was, the USPS/etc. would be collecting a lot more than 25 cents in postage.