Siglent SDS1000X and  (MSO) SDS1000X+ series oscilloscopes - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2015, 10:23:04 am
content: Edit:AddSDS1000X is base model(SDS1000X-S is base model with 25MHz Function/Arb generator hardware.)New: SDS1000X+ is like SDS1000X-S added with 16 channel LA hardware. (Activation need buy license key and also need logic probe SPL1016)Of course there isEEVblog #797 - Siglent SDS1000X Reviewfor watch with all goods, bads and using mistakes etc.It is good to note that SDS1102X (100MHz) and SDS1202X (200MHz)only difference in practice is there in analog front end frequency response. (same for X+ models)Also 100MHz model have 50ohm input selectable. Both have 2ns/div.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2015, 10:59:01 am
content: Here wfm/s speed table. Mesurements using older FW but I have not seen any change in FW....39.5Removed obsolete table.In this message table is ok.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2015, 02:47:26 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 17, 2015, 12:04:05 pmIn my own use SDS1202X after september. (also edited first msg)

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2015, 07:52:38 pm
content: Images about SDS1000X series segmented memory acquisition cycle.Maximum speed is aound 12 - 16 sequences/sec. (sequence may have 1 to1024segments and minimum segment interval is 2us.If there is 1GSa/s, 50ns/div 700pts segment lenght, segment time is 700ns and dead time is 1300ns. (segment speed is 500ksegment/s)Images from SDS2304. Signal source SDS1202X Trig output.Signal to SDS1202X 50MHz sine.Mode: continuous run with Sequence acquisition on.t/div 50ns and display dots, Sinc off.First image SDS1202X set for 10 segments.Next image set for 1000 segments.Note that SDS1000X give also trig out for every segment and not only one pulse for every whole sequence as some other models.10 segment sequence1000 segment sequence

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 05:10:34 pm
content: There is available new FW for SDS1000X series.SDS1000X_UpdateCurrent Version: 1.1.2.1R1 | Published?2015-12-18Downloadable fromhttp://siglentamerica.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=2579&tid=15

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 08:04:10 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on December 18, 2015, 05:10:34 pm2 MbFrom the changelog:1. Add the adjust the trigger level function in the Vedio trigger.;2. Add CAN&LIN decode function;3. Standardized measurement parameter name;4. Fix Bug: When upgrade the new firmware to 100%,The old version firmware No prompt the message about “Update successful”.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 11:23:35 am
content: Perhaps images are self explanating.Btw, this unknown other scope is factory original 200MHz. I do not know its 500uV bandwidth but there is not forced BW filter and some suspect that it is around same as scope other voltage bands(?). Using higher voltages there is -3dB point around 240MHz. In picture can see also things what leads to suspect that this "ultra low noise" scope 500uV/div is not true analog channel...it is vertical digital zoom only.Siglent 500uV/div -3dB point is around 270MHz. Higher voltages(eg 50mV/div) -3dB is over 280MHz.Of course testing is required to ensure that the environmental EMI has not affected the high impedance input. These are so obvious basic fundamentals.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 03:22:09 pm
content: Here also some test images also about noise things.Signal is square from SDG5082 function generator.Noise p-p is easy to show. Pure sinewave RMS is easy to calculate. But, random noise is bit more difficult case.If really want calculate it, there need take lot of samples to memore, more better. Then take every sample and start computing.But, if I look image I can quess noise RMS is somewhere between 60 and 100uV. Between SDG and SDS there is 40dB attenuator.Every V/div have two images. Unlimited BW (in this case - 3dB point 270 - 280MHz. 200MHz -1dB. Then BW Limited to 20MHz using oscillosscope own BW limit. This I have measured and it have -3dB point @ 20MHz (measured).

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2015, 01:58:34 pm
content: Rigol DS1074 (100MHz)Siglent SDS1202X 200MHzAbout images: NOTE: Both have resolution 800x480. ON Computer display you see both same dimensions. (I have not resized images for show difference)Rigol DS1000Z real TFT size is 7" and Siglent 8".Signal exactly same. Settings all as same as possible also both selfcal before test.Both signals with 50ohm coaxial from same very good quality RF generator, and sure there is not noise from generator what any this kind of oscilloscopes can detect. Rigol do not have 50ohm inputs so both scopes set for 1Mohm input.Of course Siglent have more noise (if front end quality is equal) because its analog side measured bandwidth -3dB is ~280MHz and Rigol ~ half. But no, Siglent is in its own class.(note. In some previous images where is undefined scope ffor compare. It is NOT Rigol DS1000Z series oscilloscope. It is well known bit more higher class equipment.)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2015, 07:08:02 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on December 21, 2015, 01:58:34 pmWOW, That's a vast difference in displayed noise.I'd guess you are referring to an Owon for the previous images. ?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2015, 10:23:11 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 21, 2015, 07:08:02 pmNo, they are not Owon. (Owon do not have 500uV/div in any model)Here is Owon XDS3102A (ADC resolution selection 8 bit because Siglent is 8bit)In all images 5mV/div because this is lowest V/div in Owon what have full BW. (Owon have 2 and 1mV/div but 20M BW rejected. Siglent have full BW down to 500uV/div)Both scopes get parallel exactly same signal (splitted).Both scopes run 1ms/div with full 1GSa/s, acquisition normalThen Stopped and zoomed to 50ns/div. (due to lack of memory Siglent can not do this with more low t/div)(with this method scopes are "face to face" so that very different wfm/s update rate with this setting and lack of intensity grading in Owon etc do not affect result on the screen)Next images about same but used window zoom.Here need note that Siglent is 200MHz and Owon here is 100MHz model. (part of random noise, thermal noise, is related to BW and thumb rule is that this part of total noise power is 3dB higher when BW doubles)

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2015, 02:24:44 pm
content: SDS1202X Trigger Out delay and jitter.trigger set for rising edge in CH1Trig Out in CH2Dealy is near 310ns. (add around 5ns to display due to stupid mistake with cable delay compensation.)Jitter peak to peak around 8ns.Not so bad, not so good... most important is that user know it so that do not design to use this signal for set-up where need near zero delay and jitter like in old analog oscilloscopes.With slow signals you can use it for some other equipment synch (if this kind of delay and amount of jitter is negligible)

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2015, 04:47:05 pm
content: After FW update to version 1.1.2.1.1 (1.1.2.1R1 | Published?2015-12-18) The maximum number of segments is changed from 1024 to 80000.Here new table.Note: This table show "up to" maximum speed.More important in Sequence mode is maximum speed where all waveforms what meet trigger are also captured.We can name it as something like "guaranteed maximum". For testing this, test must use maximum amount of segments in evvery t/div speeds.This table here is not guaranteed maximum. In this test have not counted possible events what havve dropped out. Here have calculated from time stamps amouunt of used time / amount of captured segments.When test guaranteed speed there must be (example) burst what include exactly 80000 pulse. Then look what is maximum pulse speed where no one pulse is missing from sequence acquisition.There is later other table about this test. In this test highest speed was 485ksegment/s. Using various kind of signals and trigger settings etc, including some possible variations between individual scopes, Siglent specifications tell 400kwfm/s (400ksegm/s) what is, imho, just ok to tell. Not "up to", but "least faster than"..

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2015, 06:01:33 am
content: Due to new FW 1.1.2.1.1 there was also chance in Sequence mode so that maximum number of segments inside sequence is chanced (improved from max 1000 segment to max 80000 segment) I have tested if it change some other things in Sequence aacquisition. I have not seen other notable changes in Sequence mode. Here some random images collected during tests.In this case there was around 50MHz sinewave input to SDS1202X CH1Horizontal speed 50ns/div (1GSa/s). Segment lenght is 700ns (one waveform)Display mode dots.Acquisition mode Sequence and with this setting, maximum number of segments in sequence is 45526.Sequence mode running continuous mode (repeating until user stop).This first image is from SDS2304 what is connected to SDS1202X Trig Output.In upper window there can see whole sequence period including small part of next period starting near right side of window.Whole period is bit over 260ms. Segments acquisition phase take around 91ms in this case. Segment aacquisition repeat period is 2 us. (45526x2us) This 2us segmeent period can see in bottom window where is separate individual segment trig out signals visible. After this sequence acquisition time scope is busy and can not start new sequence. At this time it is processing what it have acquired and also update to image some segment so that user can see something). Also it do things what have been waiting because scope is very busy so that it can minimize trigger recovery time and take asap new segment. In this case there is 700ns segments and between segments 1300ns dead, but speed itself is 500kwfm/s (ksegm(s).Next 3 images are from SDS1202X screen.This is what is visible in SDS1202X TFT during this sequence mode running. (sequence number counting and waveform image updated slowly (looks like once per whole sequence) At this time nearly 4 times/second something like "single shots"...Next two images show something about stored segments watching.After get single shot or continuous mode wanted segment acquisitions and want look what there. Scope stops if push History button (if not stopped due to single shot sequence) After pushing history, you can look stored segments just as you can do if you stop scope from normal mode and want look waveform history. Only difference is how they have acquired. Wiew and operate with these "segments" or "waveforms" or "frames" (how ever we want call these) is same.In this image, Sequence mode captured segments (waveforms)*) watched using FFT and here in this image segment number 29371. (yes FFT settings are not optimal here, just for show it can do for segments and of course same same can do for normal history waveforms. )segment = waveform = string of ADC samples what lenght is current used memory lenght.One segment (top window). In this case there is 45526 this kind of segments what is displayed in upper window (in this case segment number 10300).Of course there can do measurements and pan-zoom details. In this case segment is 700 data points captured using 50ns/div setting. These can watch whole display or windowed display zoomed. Also measurements can use. Of course these are full undecimated raw ADC sample strings, not display images, even if segment/waveform lenght is 14M..

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2015, 09:30:58 am
content: Of course everyone has heard of thousands of rumors about how bad digital oscilloscopes are when they should trig to the AM modulated signal .SDS1000X triggering directly to AM modulated RF signal (not used modulating signal separately for trigger)Upper window 50MHz signal AM modulated using around 3kHz sine and lower window zoomed to carrier. In live running it also looks rock solid, just nearly like still image.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2015, 10:42:15 pm
content: How well does it perform in X-Y mode?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2015, 01:59:15 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on December 30, 2015, 10:42:15 pmHaha, kind of flattering you want to follow this thread so I'll ask you to post a screenshot of your Rigol in X-Y mode and we'll duplicate it.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2015, 05:54:19 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 31, 2015, 01:59:15 amYou and I both know that the Rigol 1054z can't hold a candle to a basic analog scope in X-Y mode. It fails miserably to display the ScopeClock and barely makes a legible image with the Oscillofun file.But the Siglent should be better, no? So let's see how it does with Oscillofun or something like the ScopeClock.ETA: Actually I was able to get a fair-to-middling display of the ScopeClock on the Rigol after all, after playing around with the Mem Depth and etc.

author: znroot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2016, 07:40:37 pm
content: No news about scope hacks??? O0

author: smarteebit
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 01:02:43 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on December 31, 2015, 05:54:19 amHello alsetalokin4017,The ScopeClock looks interesting. Is it a static display, or a real clock which can count the time? I'm curious how you generate the 2 signals if it is a real clock.Thanks.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2016, 10:10:50 am
content: New FW for the SDS1000X series:http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SDS1000X%20P06.rarFrom the website changelog:1.Add ASCII display function;2.Fix Some bugs:a) CSV file wrong timestamp problemb) Inverted channel setting’s issuec) Timeout error when using Labview Driver

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2016, 09:00:05 am
content: Just tiny wfm/s speed chec with new P06 FW.- All measurements on (continuously updating table left top on display)- Gated measurements on (Max, Min, RMS can select more measurements and no affect speed) measuring continuously between A and B (Gate) (on or off, same speed)- Statistics on. (on or off, same speed)- Tracking Cursors on, continuously tracking. (on or off, same speed)- Persistence on. (on or off, same speed)- Sin(x)/x on (on or off, same speed)- Display mode dots. (do you see dots in image)(if lines, instead of dots, is on then wfm/s pseed drops down lot of. But with these speed mostly do not need lines. With more low horizontal speeds lines may be more iportant and there lines/dots have same wfm/s speed, change happend somewhere around 500ns/div)SDS1000X reach maximum wfm/s speed with 50ns/div.Continuous (average including processing time period between display refresh)60.9kwfm/s(60.7 - 70)Peak speed 70.8kwfm/s (continuous speed inside one display-processing period without this time cap. Some scope manufacturers tell this max speed)Always there in bacround is working history recording to history buffer, with this speed or what ever is current speed, oscolloscope save every single wfm to history buffer.In this case (50ns/div) backround buffer lenght is ~45000 waveforms (max 80000 wfm). If you stop scope you can scroll back all these individual waveforms. Measurements, zooming etc can also use with these. History buffer can not turn off or on. It is there, always working and available when normal mode running is stopped. If use segmented memory acquisition (Sequence mode). It use this same memory so in this mode there is not separate "history". Segments are "history" in this mode. (in sequence mode, it do not update display or processing during segments acquisition until selected or maximum amount of segments are acquired. Only after then it update display and do other time consuming things for reach maximum 500kwfm/s speed. Do not mix normal mode History and Sequence mode "History". After sequence (amount of segments) are captured then user select "History" player for look these segments. (this "History" player is same for looking normal mode history buffer and for looking sequence mode acquired segments.)

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2016, 09:57:22 am
content: Other test.Here window zoom- All measurements on (continuously updating table left top on display)- Gated measurements on (Max, Min. User can select more measurements and no affect speed) measuring continuously between A and B (Gate) (on or off, same speed)- Statistics on. (on or off, same speed)- Tracking Cursors on, continuously tracking. (on or off, same speed)- Persistence on. (on or off, same speed)- Sin(x)/x on (on or off, same speed)- Display mode dots. (dots can see in zoomed window but still due to enough fast wfm/s speed there is so many sample points in one trace that individual sample dots draw nearly continuous trace)(look previous message)Continuous (average including processing time period between display refresh)in this case using windowed zoom. wfm/s speed is dropped to 1.2-1.25 kwfm/s.Peak speed is 1.8 kwfm/s (continuous speed inside one display-processing period without this time cap.)50ns/div without zoom scope reach maximum wfm speed ~60kwfm/s. When change to zoom with this 50ns/div it drops lot of but still keep >1kwfm/s. With lower t/div speeds drop ratio in speed is typically much less.EDIT: Corrected wfm/s (wfm/s --> kwfm/s)

author: pxl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2016, 03:32:06 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on April 16, 2016, 09:00:05 amBut this screenshot has been made in lines mode, right? It is in 700 pts, which means 70 dot/dev and in the screenshot we can see continuous lines, not dots.UPDATE: I read your next comment, I got the point.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2016, 03:53:45 pm
content: Quote from: pxl on April 16, 2016, 03:32:06 pmgood.Some more explanation for someones who may wonder what is this..It IS dot mode.If this image where is 50ns/div and not zoom.There display mode is dots.You are right there is 700 dots on the screen (horizontally)(Btw, Siglent is mapping always what ever memory lenght to display width. Also in SDS1000X)It means that 50 dots for one div. (14 div)Where sinewave is rising or falling there must see dots and it is true IF we take one shot one waveform.But it draw 60000 waveform in one second. But peak vaue is around 70000. If we take one TFT image (I do not know exactly TFT refres rate but lets think it is 25 updates/s. 70000/25 = 2800. In one TFT image there is 2800 waveforms overlayed (in simplified theory). Samples are not exactly same position (due to - many reasons) and it draw like continuous line. There is visible dots if we stop scope and after then take one waveform, example if we after then look waveforms history buffer, there is last over 40000 single acquisitions. In history viwewer we can run it slowly and now we can see these walking dots clearly and if we playback it more and more fast, they disappear.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2016, 09:53:34 am
content: Something about serial decoding, with new P06 FW.Here simple (UART) RS232 9600baud 8N1 and 259 bytes long message.One important rule. Trigger position need be in memory range if you want byte count in table is from trigger. If trigger is left from main window left border it decode but byte count in table start from left border.(If use window zoom, always byte count start from zoom window left border)Memory for this function is 1.4M (with some t/div 1.8M) when single channel in use. If use two channel, example for RX and TX then half.Now there is available hex, decimal, binary and alsoASCII.If have long dense string in window it can not of course show decode result in bottom decode display. If all ok it show blue bar. If there is errors then these are marked with red. But in this case you can use window zoom and move this window to position in string what you want look.If you do not want window zoom you still can look what are there by scrolling decode table. In this case table byte count start from trigger if trigger is in memory area. (Whole memory lenght is in main window). Same as also time. (I hope they add small indicator on waveform display where is my selection in table. So that if I have selected byte 173 there is indicator where it is horizontally in waveform, just example small dial arrow or something like it. Example just top on the screen where is also trigger position symbol but different shape and color))If use window zoom, table time is from trigger position BUT table byte number is from bottom zoom window left border. (I hope they add in some later FW update one column where is also counting from trigger position.)If you want after decoding you can stop and zoom in or out in main window using t/div for details and go to horizontal position what you are interest or you can also in stop mode turn window zoom on.If scope is stopped without decoding. If you now turn decode on. It can not decode. But if it is decodes in run mode. You can zoom and go to details where ever it is in decoded acquisition.Fun detail.In second image there read "Decimalism". What -ism.Chinese language translation is difficult if do not use special dictionary (engineering, medical, chemistry, electronics, etc depending what is doing)Some times I hope they use western professionals who can tell what are right terms for use in T&M equipments. Also this can see in many data sheets. I can not understand why they do not open example older HP and Tek data sheets. There they find everything what they need. Also, as we know they have big difficulties some times to understand what are differencies with m and M etc. Just as difficult as if we try read chinese text. (example: it is not mhz, it is not mHz if mean Mega Herz. It is not v if mean voltage. It is V. It is not T/div if mean time per division. It is t/div. And so on.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2016, 06:54:31 pm
content: About waveform update rate now after FWP06. Some things works better.Mostly there is manufacturers advertisements about maximum speed or even maximum peak speed using just these settings what give best speed. In practice we use oscilloscope with many kind of settings and also perhaps measurements and cursors on etc. Scopes are very different with these things if look wfm/s speed.In SDS1000X measurements, persistence, manual cursors and sin(x)/x do not affect speed or the effect is so small that does not matter.There is one factor, and its effect is significant.Display mode vectors (lines) or dots if timebase is faster or equal 200ns/div with one channel in use or faster or equal 500ns/div when 2 channels are in use.Other things what reduce wfm/s speed are, window zoom. (this is bit complex where also zoom factor have effect depending base speed) Later I will show something about it.Then if go to other than normal acquisition mode. Averaging drops wfm/s speed lot of, same is ERES. Peak detect effect is so small, if any, that it does not matter. Later about these.The first thought when talk about dots display mode is often: "I want to use vectors not dots. I like see continuous line."But, here need remember speed. Dots mode draw (mostly) very continuous line when wfm/s speed is high enough.There is lot of captured waveforms overlayed in one TFT update. If take example 50ns/div and one channel. There is inside TFT update period wfm/s speed around 70kwfm/s *). If TFT is updated 25 times in second there is then 2800 wfm overlayed in one TFT picture (this is one thing what give data for intensity gradation) and next turn after 1/25s again next 2800wfm and so on. There is so much dots that it is like continuous line.*) 60.9kwfm/s average. There is 70kwfm/s burst speed, then pause, burst, pause...etc. Pause is every time scope is processing data and updating display. Pauses + 70k bursts give this 60.9kwfm/s.Also it need ask do you really need fastest possible wfm/s speed for just this work you are doing.It is perhaps the wrong idea if we believe that always have to be the maximum speed. Also it is good to remember that there is lot of high-end oscilloscopes what have maximum wfm/s speed somewhere around 1kwfm/s! (If this feels unbelievable please look example Keysight (Agilent) most modern and expensive Infiniium series models. Of course these scopes have many features what can help for example rare glitch hunting, so truth is not so simple that most fast is always best. This is partially marketing trick and no one can say this scope is better because it have better wfm/s speed.It is partially marketing trick but then it is also very important specially in oscilloscopes what do not have most advanced (and expensive) features. When we go over around 20kEuro prices situation may be different.Who is thinking this as only truth he do not know what he is talking. Just as stupid as if think best camera is what have highest amount of pixels or best car is what maximum speed is highest.Note that always backround running history recording works just with these wfm/s speed. When you stop scope you can search previous captured single waveforms what was stored to history buffer before you stop. Maximum count of individual waveforms is same as in sequence mode segments amount depending memory and speed settings.Sequence mode wfm/s (segment/s) speed is very different, this is handled previously. In Sequence mode dots/lines or any these other settings do not have effect. This is whole different story (max 500000 wfm/s)In this table is compared lines and dots display mode in normal acquisition mode and trigger mode normal, rising edge. Trigger horizontal position zero (center).

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2016, 05:47:05 pm
content: FW update P06 have changed Sequence mode. Test with SDS1202X show that now it overlay all acquired segments in sequence to display after whole sequence is ready. It is not free. Price is that it need more process time between sequences depending amount of segments in sequence and also depending display settings. This is low price for this improvement. Segments/s speed is not affected. Only whole Sequence repeating interval is increased.Important is that when it update display after whole sequence there can see overlayed every segment so that detecting anomalies is possible. After display is updated it start new Sequence if we are repeating Sequence acquisitions it keep this last display until next Sequence is ready and processed for display. (if in this mode use vectors display mode in case when there is high amount of segments it may rise processing time lot of. This is natural and is acceptable.)This is very good fix/improvement.What I can hope is that Siglent add also user selectable overlay mode also to "History" player so that if look normal history or segmented acquisition it is more easy to detect differencies. Overlay all and overlay last displayed n (user selectable amount) segments. Also I hope that variable persistence can use in history viewer/player. This add more value for normal backround history and for Sequence function.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 04:27:55 pm
content: Bit more testing new FW P06 sequence mode.Now I'm sure it is mapping all segments to display after one Sequence is ready. In continuous mode and in single Sequencemode.Images1. Normal acquistion.You can see image when more and more segments are stacked (overlay)2. 50 segments Sequence3. 300 segments Sequence4. 5000 segments Sequence. (in this image I also push multifunction knob to call virtual keyboard what can use for set values. Previously only turning this knob adjust value, nor can use turning for select or enter value using this virtual keyboard, what is much more fast with big numbers.5. 29000 segments Sequence.6-7 pulse period is slow 100us (100kHz) This Sequence is 100kwfm/s (100ksegment/s)Max speed is 500ksegment/s.If do not have sequence acquistion mode and need capture this to continuous memory. 29100 segment and period 100us (100000ns) Samplerate is 1GSa/s. 29100*100000=2910000000 points. It need 2910M points. This is one important advantage of Sequence mode.6. Signal have 29100 pulses. One pulse include one glitch. (1:29100)this image include stacked (overlayed) every 29100 segment.7.Looking individual segments can find that that in this case this one glitch is in segment number 51.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 09:34:47 pm
content: Thank you for this very descriptive test, the results look excellent!I have updated the SDS2304 but didn't get around playing with it yet.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2016, 06:13:24 am
content: Quote from: Performa01 on April 22, 2016, 09:34:47 pmAlso I have not yet tested SDS2304 but with just playing with it after new FW looks like same. Exept, SDS2k have more processing power so also processing after Sequence captured and before displayed is more short.Now when all segments are mapped to display it also means more long time before it can start new sequence. If user need continuously repeating sequences it is better to use display mode dots if possible. (example, if there is 40000 segment in sequence and every segment is 700 point there need handle 27960000 intervals of the sample points for lines before whole sequence can dipslay so that there is all segments overlayed, it takes while.)

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2016, 12:02:30 pm
content: Small test about Pass/Fail mask test speed with new FW P06Pass/Fail mask test do not affect normal wfm/s speed. It works with full wfm/s speed in all cases.Here input signal is pulses. Frequency 1MHz.Manually triggered generated exatly 1000000 pulses burst.Trigger normal.When burst arrive it can capture and test 61000 waveforms.Independent of test result. Test fail and pass speed is same.Every single acquisition if mask test result is fail it generate Pass/fail output 2us wide pulse. Inserted small image in first image is from second scope (SDS2303) connected to 1202X P/F output. (in this image case there come out 61029 pulse.(yes, it is counted also using HP53131A)OMG... There in image text read Bug, it is NOT The Bug. Instead, it is just as clever as it looks like!

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2016, 01:39:39 pm
content: Regarding the "small bug" you are indicating:The signal always has the color of the associated channel, yellow in this example.Mask violations are always shown in red.If you have a constant signal causing permanent mask violations, the red trace might never get displayed as the actual signal (the yellow one) might take priority over that. If that's actually the case, it could be discussed whether it would be better to give the error trace priority on the display. But then again, permanent mask violation isn't a real use case anyway.I have suggested to include the persistence setting for displaying the error trace and Siglent have implemented that a while ago - I just don't know whether this is already included with the current official firmware. You can try - set up a test with infrequent mask violations and set persistence in the display menu, then you should clearly see any faulty signal in red on the screen.With infinite persistence this means you can start the mask test, leave for a beer or two, then come back and not only know the number of violations that occurred in the meantime, but also see what exactly was going wrong with the signal.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2016, 02:04:20 pm
content: Quote from: Performa01 on April 25, 2016, 01:39:39 pmThank you. Good!In my previous text it is this kind of..... when do with lack of timeThis is nice (not tested if it is there in SDS1000X also but if not now , then later.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2016, 06:51:21 am
content: About waveform update rate.Of course it is well known that this is bit complex group of things. Also important but same time also not very important depending what we are doing and what tools/features oscilloscope have.Usually if oscilloscope have trigger output where is available one pulse for every trigged acquisition it is quite simple, and typically we count how many trig out pulse there exist example in one second. I think mostly there is used continuous repetitive signal to oscilloscope input. Usually so that frequency is enough high so that after trigger is rearmed scope do not need next available trigger event so long time that it start reduce wfm/s speed.Usually in specifications manufacturer tell maximum average speed what is available with some settings what give maximal speed.Example in SDS1000X this hapend when horizontal speed is 50ns/div and display mode dots and single channel in use.This max average speed is60kwfm/sif there is enough trigger events what depends input signal.If turn display mode lines (what do not need often with fast signal when update speed is high) all know it reduce wfm/s speed. Also other settings may affect.Every t/div and memory setting also affect. And last, of course signal itself.If you look 1kHz square wave rising edge and setting is (example) this 50ns/div do it have 60kwfm/s update rate. No, of course not. Then it is near but under 1kHz.But if think there is signal what give this top average speed 60kwfm/s and think it triggers every 16.666us at regular intervals. No. It do not. It do >70kwfm/s stop >70kwfm/s stop >70kwfm/s etc. If input is example 1MHz pulses and horizontal 50ns/div. This acquisition run-stop interval is somewhere around 40ms in this case.Burst speed inside this interval is around71kwfm/s max. (Some manufacturer may tell this value as max wfm/s)What happend if signal frequency drop under this ~25Hz. It do not at all run/stop, there is capture regular intervals.But, there is more.If look 100ms (10 pulse one second) period fast pulses (in this example case ~100ns width pulses)Nothing special happend and continuously 10 times second see this pulse using 50ns/div.Previously I told max burst speed is 71kwfm/s (with fast repeating continuous input) it means it can trigger after every 14.1us. (until it stop acq. for processing data and refresh wfms to display)But this is not whole truth.It can trig in normal use also faster.Example:t/divInput double pulses. Pulses A and B. |period|A 50ns widthB 12ns widthd delayOne period: ___|AdB__________________|AdB_____ period in this case 100ms and delay (d) from A rise to B rise 5.6us.It trigger first to A and immediately it can trig also B if distance is 5.6us or more.If we now make decision that scope wfm/s speed is max178.5 kwfm/s...if it is not exatly lie but it more like stretched the truth and a lie border!So, if use these methods, think really carefully what you get... how 60kwfm/s max average speed scope is now 180kwfm/s scope. (even if this peak can give small advantage in some very special rare situations)Long time ago when I did something with glitches I did not understand why I find more fails detected what was expected. I repeat it many times because I think there was some mistake in my test. But I did not think it then more because problem was solved other way.But then I hit dejavu because in last days I think wfm/s update rate in scope what do not have trigger out.And I made also some tests then with SDS1000X and I find unexpexted fast wfm/s update speeds using this double pulse method and also using rise/fall (alt) trigger method.It was surprise it give result around 180kwfm/s maximum (peak) speeds.After then I look what happend, connecting second scope to SDS1000X trigger output. And really, it can trig and capture agen after 5.6us after previous trig (50ns/div setting). Now I think that this perhaps also explain this earlier mystery in my previous fail/glitch counting when it find more than expected with 60kwfm/s speed.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2016, 08:57:18 am
content: What you are looking for is theguaranteedminimum trigger re-arm time (aka blind time). This is the driver number behind being able to do fast sequential acquisitions. Waveforms/s also includes the time taken for the acquisition itself and therefore doesn't say much because it is a combination of acquisition time (known) and trigger re-arm time. Unless the trigger re-arm time is specified it can be anything and may change without notice between firmware versions. As usual:if it isn't specified then don't rely on it.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2016, 10:15:41 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 26, 2016, 08:57:18 amOf course, it is trivial. But this is not question at all. And in practice things are not so straighthforward.Give me exact full definition about quaranteed minimum trigger re-arm time. Give me also full and perfect definition about "blind time". After you have done these whitepapers I ask again if things are so trivial.Scope acquisition and trigger may have lot of things what affect in practice when we analyze variable not continuous repetitive signals and things may be very different if we look 10Hz repetitive narrow pulses or if we are looking all time variable (non repetitive) signals or repetitive signals with very different frequencies. It depends also hardware architechture and of course FW.Just previous message I try tell it how there is different things and after then your bit wiseacre trivia like ideal square wave from student basic fundamentals book. After you get more real practice perhaps you find whole world is not only black and white or true and untrue.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2016, 09:43:43 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on April 26, 2016, 06:51:21 amHave you tested your SDS2304 to see if a similar burst wfm/s update ratepeakis used?How fast is it?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2016, 05:29:10 am
content: Quote from: tautech on April 26, 2016, 09:43:43 pmOnly quick look but I need more evidence that the data can be published. Careful examination is time-consuming. Time is a limited resource.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2016, 12:43:40 pm
content: Siglent limited time OfferBuy between 26.04. - 26.07.2016 from Siglent accepted seller/distributor and you get free Serial Decode option SDS1000X-DC.(IIC, SPI, UART/RS232, CAN, LIN)

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2016, 06:21:38 am
content: Sequence mode segment/s speed table is now quarateed max speed instead of average maximum. Guaranteed max speed is speed where every trig leads to segment acquisition.Test with new FW version 1.1.2.6 (also called as P06):Oscilloscope (SDS1202X-S) in Sequence mode.Trig normal, rising edge. Sequence lengh maximum amount of segments with current t/div.In Sequence mode, display settings dots or lines/vectors, persistence settings and Sin(x)/x on or off do not affect acquisition max speed inside one sequence.Signal:External pulse generator (SDG5000) generate pulses in burst mode.Amount of pulses in one burst is exactly same as in oscilloscope amount of segments in Sequence.Initial pulse interval faster so that scope can not trig and capture every pulse.Burst is manually trigged out when oscilloscope is waiting signal.Adjusted pulse interval until scope can reliable trig and capture every pulse (one pulse - one segment).Repeated test so many times that it is sure result was not lottery win.Repeating is important because when oscilloscope run, there may exist some small variations in trigger rearm time,perhaps due to scope other running processes but also input signal is not perfect.(perfect do not exist in nature, all what we have is total sum of all errors. Perfect exist only in school books and )If final result is that it can capture guaranteed speed say example 24565 segment/s without any loose, result is then always rounded down to nearest step what is used in table. 100, 10 or 1 - so in this case to 24500 for get "tolerance margin."(Steps used: 50us, 100us/div step 10 and 200us - 1ms/div step 1, all other t/div step is 100.)Maximum average wfm/s is tested with enough high input signal frequency and measured average over around 1 second.Note also wfm/s burst speeds and also this very unexpected low frequency "double pulse" test very fast trigger rearm. In some cases with natural signals in practice they may give some times small advantage for find some rare unwanted glitch etc. What ever but it is never bad thing to know and understand how test equipment work.After every whole Sequence is captured, oscilloscope display whole one Sequence segments overlayed in display even if amount is 80000 segment in Sequence. After then it is ready to next Sequence. Processing time between whole Sequences depends also what are display settings.Sequence mode is highly improved and also some bugs fixed in FW version P06.But as all know there is not free lounges. Mapping every single segment to display after whole sequence is ready, depending amount of segments and display settings may take now more time. (example: if there is one channel 40000 segments and segment lenght is 700 points it need handle 28 000 000 lines even if there is not but every step from data point to next need check. So, if you want continuously run several sequences with lot of segments it is better to use display mode dots. If you want lines when you are in stop state and looking individual segments you can use lines. (and zoom vertical, horizontal, do measurements, math etc.)With this new improvement in Sequence mode it is more useful because now it can sure see if these is some anomalies in some segments, without need to go looking separate segments using History/segments viewer in stop mode.Right side bottom table (segments/s, CH1+CH2 in use)Sample speed in this part is wrong 1Gsa/s. Right is of course 500MSa/s (for both channels)In )left side) wfm/s Ch1 + Ch2 it is right.Right side bottom table (segments/s, CH1+CH2 in use)Sample speed in this part is wrong 1Gsa/s. Right is of course 500MSa/s (for both channels)In )left side) wfm/s Ch1 + Ch2 it is right.

author: Deuze
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 07:06:48 am
content: Is it able to decode the data into ASCII? Thanks!

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 10:16:27 am
content: ASCII is just added to latest FW.I have not now time for more testings but this tiny test copy is here with some remarks.Something about serial decoding,with new P06 FW.Here simple (UART) RS232 9600baud 8N1 and 259 bytes long message in all images.One important rule. Trigger position need be in memory range if you want byte count in table is from trigger. If trigger is left from main window left border it decode but byte count in table start from left border. If use window zoom, then main decoding window is bottom zoomed window.(If use window zoom, always byte count start from zoom window left border)Memory for Decode function is 1.4M (with some t/div 1.8M) when single channel in use. If use two channel, example for RX and TX then half.Now there is available hex, decimal, binary and also added ASCII.If have long dense string in window it can not of course show decode result in bottom decode display. If all ok it show blue bar. If there is errors then these are marked with red. You can use window zoom and move this window to position in string what you want look.If you do not want window zoom you still can look what are there by scrolling decode table. In this case table byte count start from trigger if trigger is in memory area. (Whole memory lenght is in main window). Same as also time position in decode table. (I hope they add small indicator on waveform display where is my selection in table. So that if I have selected byte 173 there is indicator where it is horizontally in waveform, just example small dial arrow or something like it. Example just top on the screen where is also trigger position symbol but different shape and color))If use window zoom, table time is from trigger position BUT table byte number is from bottom zoom window left border. (I hope they add in some later FW update one column more where is also counting from trigger position.)If you want you can stop and zoom in or out in main window using t/div for details and go to horizontal position what you are interest or also in stop mode you can turn window zoom on for more details.If scope is stopped without decoding. If you now turn decode on it can not decode. But if it is already decoded in run mode you can in stop mode zoom and go to details where ever interesting detail is in decoded acquisition.Decode result in binary. With universal know you can select what bytes you want see. Table lenght is max 7 row. Left side you see what are byte numbers in this decoded string. Count starts here from trigger.Note: Timebase here is 50ms/div. Default is that scope use "Scroll" mode with this speed.Decode is NOT available in Scroll mode. You need select normal acquisition with trigger settings what need/want use.Decode result in decimal. (with 8 data bits 0-255)Decode result in hex. (with 8 data bits 00-FF)Decode result in ASCIIYou can also zoom but nowbyte numbersare counted from zoom window left border. Byte time in table is still counted from trigger.I wish they improve this in next some FW update.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 10:25:55 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on May 03, 2016, 10:16:27 amHow useless... basically it still decodes only what is on screen and you have no idea where you are exactly inside a packet. There are far better decoding solutions on other scopes. Some even have the ability to decode UART data as a packets based on a packet termination character so you can see a message exchange between two devices.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 10:49:43 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 03, 2016, 10:25:55 amYes decode option need some improvements as I have told.Decode what is on the display. Of course it decode only what is captured!In siglent, always(!) all what is captured is on the screen. You did not still know it.It is not different in decode mode or just normal watching mode. Even if normal watching mode is example 70M long one acquisition it is all in image, there is not overlapp. WICIWYS principle.Example there is one image where is around 275ms long capture. This is also decoded. But, it is so dense bottom blue decode area can not see any details. (exept that there is not errors)Now if you want look details, just zoom. Zoom how deep you want. All is still decoded and you see details in zoom window. Also you can see whole decode list just scrolling list, if zoomed or not.But, developing continue.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 11:05:39 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on May 03, 2016, 10:49:43 amIt needs lots of improvement! Just look at the last picture you posted. It has a long acquisition but it is zoomed in on a short piece. Now the decoding starts at the beginning of the short piece. That is wrong in so many ways! Can't Siglent look at how Keysight or GW Instek are implementing decoding? Why does Siglent insist in doing it the wrong way for so many years already? Siglent really should stop trying to reinvent the wheel because their version is square. First get the basics right and then add features if you want to be innovative.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 12:02:37 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 03, 2016, 11:05:39 amLet's do thatQuoteYes, that's the waveform of interest, that's why it's zoomed in onQuote from: rf-loop on May 03, 2016, 10:49:43 amQuote from: nctnico on May 03, 2016, 11:05:39 amHow? Why?If the info you seek can be identified using the UI, what's wrong with the decoding?Whats a preferred method of extracting the same information?No I'm not trying to wind you up, I'd really like to know your considered reply.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 02:04:43 pm
content: In many cases you are interested in looking whether a part of a message is correct. Say the message is 50 bytes long and the problem or value you want to inspect is in byte 40. When zooming in you'll miss the beginning and with Siglent's way of decoding you can either see the whole message with unreadable decoding or start somewhere in the middle without knowing where you are.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 03:27:26 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 03, 2016, 02:04:43 pmWhy not just then scroll decode list to byte 40. Decode list then tell also time mark for byte 40.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 03:55:25 pm
content: My Agilent/Keysight scope jumps to the right byte when it is selected in the list (you can enable/disable this behaviour).

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 04:14:02 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 03, 2016, 03:55:25 pmAs told previously least I hope Siglent improve this decoding option for more useability and just this what is in example Keysight is one (important) what also I hope. Even when I can turn zoom window to time position what is displayed in the list. But, why user need do work... my fingers are tired to things what simple 1-0 processor can do.Lets hope in China they also sooner or later find that T&M instruments design need well experiended professionals what have enough knowledge and experiece how to use these intruments in real world for real work. They need this kind of "useability" experts in team. It is not work for young just out from school EE / Programmer. How clever and fast they ever are. Inside company need also be group of beta testers who are not same peoples who write FW or design mechanics and electronic circuits in equipment under test. (theu are "home blind")Also, there need change byte number so that in all cases it start from trigger if zoomed details or not. (trigger can be also data byte in transmission but better if it can be also user defined "string" etc..There is many small clever things what can add - but first important is that decoding first works reliable.

author: pxl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 09:27:25 pm
content: @rf-loop: do you have any comparison between the SDS1000x and the SDS2000(x) regarding the fan noise? Also, I have a SDG 2042X to compare with. Thanks!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 09:50:22 pm
content: Quote from: pxl on May 03, 2016, 09:27:25 pmI've sent a query to check if the X series fan is still the same as used in the earlier 2000 series.From an earlier thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-msosds2000-series/msg476385/#msg476385Pics:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-msosds2000-series/msg743160/#msg743160It's not like there were complaints of the 2000 series fan noise so I'd be surprised if it has been changed.I've got to boot a SDG2042X so I'll check the comparable noise with my SDS2304 (not X).Very similar noise levels however they're slightly different, probably due to the different sized fans used in both these units.But it wasn't an X series so we'll see what other info turn up or if another user chimes in.Hope that helps pxl.

author: pxl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 10:35:14 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on May 03, 2016, 09:50:22 pmYes, thank you!

author: pxl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2016, 06:35:48 am
content: Now I am checking the differences between the SDS1000X and SDS2000X series, however, apart from the obvious differences (channel numbers, front panel layout, sample rate, waveform update speed and memory) the functionality seems identical. The segmented memory length differs, though (1024 vs 80000). Am I right or overlooked something?The SDS1000X series I like more and hacking the fan would be a no-brainer, but I hardly would lose the warranty on a 1000 euros scope. And because of slower performance, perhaps there is more room in fan speed optimization.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2016, 07:14:31 am
content: Quote from: pxl on May 04, 2016, 06:35:48 amSDS1000X and 2000X have both max 80000 segments.(there is obsolete information around, even in Siglent own web sides)SDS2000 is far over SDS1000X and I believe SDS2000X then bit more. (SDS2kX have 16ch LA, 140M memory, when SDS2k have 70M and 8ch LA. Also X model front panel ergonomy/useability is better and not only due to trigger level knob change but also some button functions)Also example SDS2k processing power is higher than SDS1kX. Many things happends faster)But overall they are functionally near each others.If compare 2 channel model1kX 1GSa/s / 500MSa/s2kX 2GSa/s / 1GSa/s1kX 14M/7M (this affect of course to samplerate with slow timebases)2kX 140M/70M ( SDS2k 70M/35M)SDS2kX 4channel2GSa/1GSa + 2GSa/1GSa150/70M + 140M/70M (SDS2k 70/35M + 70/35M)If 4 channel mode is used for 2 channel it can both channel 2GSa/s and both channel have 140M (SDS2k 70M)1kX and 2kX (and 2k)Both have always backround running history recording with actual speed,up toprevious 80000 acquisitions (for all channels) After stop, look what just happend before stop in previous individual acquisitions.. How many previous aacquisitions depends how long is one acquisition memory lenght. Relationship is same as with amount of segments in Sequence mode.Both have around same Sequence mode (segmented memory aacquisitions)Speed around same and amount of max segments same.But if run Sequence mode so that it is repeating. (example after user selected 12345 segments in sequence it start agen after this one sequence is full. After then it deisplay on the screen all captured segments overlayed and start new whole sequence. This time when it is processing captured segments for display and before it can start new Sequence need lot of hard processing. In this, SDS1kX is clearly slower than SDS2k. And I believe same with SDS2kX. (this image processing time is also highly dependent about display mode specially if amount of segments are high in one Sequence.) In usual aplication with Sequence mode this time between Sequences is not critical.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 11:44:48 am
content: Something about intensity gradation.There is two main things and then many other small things also depending how manufaacturer have implemented it.Oscilloscope acquire single acquisitions repeatedly as fast as it can but depending signal and trigger settings of course.Single acquisition may have high amount of data points, far more than display is horizontally. If acquisition is straight line and acquisition lenght is 700pts it is equal with display horizontal signal lenght. If acquisition is 700kpts there is 1000 datapoints for one position horizontally in display and so on.When there is two data points in same memory map position they are overlayed. Intensity can adjust when we know how many data points is how many data point is stacked in one display memory position. Of course there need do many compromises and set some variables depending many things but principle is: more data point collisions more intensity.This is inside one individual acquisition.Other thing is that with fast wfm/s speeds every new TFT image have several individual acquisitions overlayed. So there may be overlayed many aacquisitions and also if data points density is high, also overlayed data points in every single acqquisition.Hone single acquisition.ere now one simplified example about(later More with continuously running scope where come also overlayed waveforms intensity.In next animated gif there is noise source connected to scope input.Oscilloscope in single shot mode. It trig once and do one single capture and stop. (first image in gif animation)Lenght is 14MSample and samplerate 1GSa/s and t/div setting 1ms/div.In beginning there is just this original whole trace as it is after single shot.After then zoomed out to 20ms/div. After then this one single shot sequentially zoomed in, step by step using horizontal scale (timebase) until 2ns/div.In original 1ms/div single shot capture whole 14M lenght is visible without overlap.When zoomed out it can see that still intensity grow if compare original capture.In this case, down to 100ns/dif there is detectable intensity gradation. 50ns/div there is not because theere is not overlayed data points. Display memory lenght and data lenght equal because 1GSa/s (display width 700ns)Inside one single capture (one shot) intensity gradation.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 07:46:11 am
content: In ARRL QST there was article about SDS1000X.Please do not copy it and put directly readable in some web side.But this pdf file you can download and read and save for your own personal use.(QST® – Devoted entirely to Amateur Radiohttp://www.arrl.orgReprinted with permission from April 2016 QST)If you are interest about this ARRL publication QST please subscribe it.http://www.arrl.org/qst

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 11:15:08 am
content: I do not want to comment now more exept that 16 channel 500MSa/s 14Mpts/channel.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 12:36:28 pm
content: That plug looks very similar to the MSO input on the SDS2000 series. Does it support protocol decoding on the digital channels?

author: znroot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 08:30:30 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on May 24, 2016, 11:15:08 amIs it an external upgrade? How can I buy it? O0

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 08:37:17 am
content: Quote from: nicolozilio on May 25, 2016, 08:30:30 amNo.QuoteSoon.....

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2016, 05:00:56 am
content: Quote from: tautech on May 25, 2016, 08:37:17 amIt's here....Improvements as outlined:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg952191/?topicseen#msg952191

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2016, 03:51:38 am
content: With the release of the SDS1000X+ versions there is now also a Service manual for this range of DSO's.http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/service_manual/SDS1000Xplus_ServiceManual_SM0101X-E01A.pdf2.3 MBAll other documentation on this series:http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-wd.aspx?id=4688&tid=1&T=2

author: UpLateGeek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 06:14:46 am
content: After some pestering of Trio Sales, the SDS1000X+ series is now available!SDS1102X+SDS1202X+You can let your credit card company know I accept thanks in the form of chocolate and/or craft beer.(Note: I have no affiliation with Trio test & measurement, I just wanted to order one for myself and thought you guys might like to know it's available.)

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 06:34:07 am
content: Looks like they just stole the idea of a "Plus" version from Rigol.Whereas Rigol spells "Plus" with the full word, Siglent decided to go for "+".Personally I like "Plus" better in the model name than "+".Note that the plug looks more similar to the MSO input on the MSO1000Z series, than the MSO input on the MSO2000 series, because there the MSO input is not so wide, and you can see 2 sections, whereas both on the Siglent and the MSO1000Z series the plug is much wider and there is only 1 section.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 06:54:13 am
content: Quote from: UpLateGeek on July 14, 2016, 06:14:46 amWelcome to the forum.Do consider that Trio may have had pre-+ versions that needed be sold first.The SDS1kX+ versions have been out for ~6 weeks and I just received my first small shipment of these and the SDS1kCML+ both of which are new to me.However the SDS1kX+ versions include the inbuilt AWG (previously S models) and are somewhat dearer than the non+ models.I got some with the LA option and LA probes....quite nice and I'll post up some pics later.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 07:11:32 am
content: Can you provide some more details about the SDS1kCML+ series?Isn't the "CML" version part of an older series? At least they used to use these letters in some older products, which had much less memory, where C meant color if I am correct, M meant memory, and L something else, which I don't rememberDoes the "+" also stand their for the LA option, or does the "+" there just stand for "restyled"?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 07:44:33 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 14, 2016, 07:11:32 amYes, the SDS1000CML is an existing series, now + with LAN and higher res display for same price as before.Model coding:CML being 2M memory as opposed to CNL(40Kb memory) models and L for all models designates the 7" widescreen, previous models were all 5.7", but that was some years back.Further explanation is in this post and the links within:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/digital-oscilloscope-comparison-chart/msg958231/#msg958231

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 08:25:31 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 14, 2016, 07:11:32 amSDS1102CML updated using 800x480 resolution TFT and added LAN connection is SDS11102CML+It is fully explained in Siglent official web sides.These updated models are:SDS1052DL+ is 50 MHz, 2 CH, 500 MSa/s (Max.) , 32 Kpts, 7 inch (800*480)SDS1072CML+ is 70MHz, 2 CH, 1 GSa/s (Max.) , 2 Mpts, 7 inch (800*480) (NOT in EU)SDS1102CML+ is 100 MHz, 2 CH, 1 GSa/s (Max.) , 2 Mpts, 7 inch (800*480)SDS1152CML+ is 150 MHz, 2 CH, 1 GSa/s (Max.) , 2 Mpts, 7 inch (800*480)(are upgraded in screen resolution and memory for recorder; Lan interface added, front panel refreshed)New (+) is: 7”color TFT 8×16 800×480Old was: 7”color TFT 8×18 480×234Waveform storage: Old 20, New(+) 10Record Memory: Old 6M, New (+) 7MInterfaces:Old:USB Host, USB Device (USBTMC), Pass / FailNew (+) :USB Host, USB Device (USBTMC), LAN (VXI-11), Pass / FailOld SDS1000CML series: Discontinued.Old SDS1000CNL discontinued exept old SDS1202CNL+ continue:SDS1202CNL+ parameters, including display unchanged and still available (200MHz,2GSa/s, 18k mem)(this is exeption and this + have nothing to do with this new DL+/CML+ improvement. This CNL+ was old other improvement in older SDS1202CNL)Some discontinued models still available and of course support and warranty is normal and continue normally.

author: UpLateGeek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2016, 04:10:58 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 14, 2016, 06:54:13 amI'd say they're aimed at different segments of the market, and are priced accordingly. The non-+ models are definitely cheaper, certainly enough so that anyone who doesn't need the extra features would think twice about spending the extra on a + model.On the other hand, the -S model is actually slightly more expensive than the + model, despite lacking the logic analyser option, so I'm not sure what's going on there.Anyway, my SDS1102X+ should be arriving soon, although I didn't have the cash for the LA probe and option this month, so hopefully I'll be able to pick them up next month.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2016, 04:30:55 am
content: Quote from: UpLateGeek on July 21, 2016, 04:10:58 amThey shouldn't be, I've got them priced the same.But then there's the distributors buy price which in their local currency can and does change from shipment to shipment.In fact if you look at the Siglent USA site, the S models are no longer available, S's are now X+ models that now include the AWGandthis newly added LA HW, all for the same price as the previous S model.http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=4688&T=2&tid=1

author: snik
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 01:54:18 pm
content: Have a SDS1102X for some time and was happy with it.Yesterday I do some sweeps on this Oscilloscope and I recognize that I have over the full Frequency Range of the scope an continues Voltagedrop. For example at 10 MHz to 100 MHz at a Signal from 4Vpp, correct terminated, i have a Drop from 1.2 Vpp.I have done a short Video :https://youtu.be/P31YGYEonr0Is that normal at this scope ? I think not. Firmware is latest.Has anybody an Idea what's wrong with it ?Michael

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 01:58:21 pm
content: Did you properly terminate the BNC cable at the input of the oscilloscope? You have to select input impedance of 50 ohm in the oscilloscope to avoid reflections, which will lead to a reduced amplitude level.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 02:07:27 pm
content: Test it again with a less challenging waveform from you AWG, try 1V amplitude not 4.

author: snik
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 02:37:09 pm
content: Have try diffrent voltage Ranges, from mV to Volts. All the same drop. The 4 Volts was for example.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 02:45:55 pm
content: Quote from: snik on August 07, 2016, 01:54:18 pmAside from the question of cabling and termination, the SDS1102X is an 100MHz scope, which means at 100MHz the signal attenuation is specified as 3dB (0.707x Vs). In reality, most scopes are better than their specified BW, but there will still be some attenuation once you reach the specified BW limit.Assuming your cable was fine and you terminated correctly, a drop of 1.2Vpp with a Vs of 4Vpp equals an attenuation of approx 3dB.Sounds reasonable to me

author: snik
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 03:02:02 pm
content: When I reach the end of the scope frequency, that there is a voltage Drop that's okay for me that's the 3dB Rule which I know , but in lower frequency the voltage should be constant. But here the voltage drops from beginning. Even my cheap ass Hantek is better and constant at voltage in lower freqency. Drops only in Higher Frequency.The siglent voltage is for example at 50 MHz 3.2Vpp at 4V Signal. That could not be right

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 03:06:59 pm
content: Quote from: snik on August 07, 2016, 03:02:02 pmNo, that's doesn't sound right. Can you be sure that the drop is not caused by your signal source, or cabling/connectors/adapters? If so then this looks like a problem with the scope, i.e. a problem with your specific unit or a general bug/flaw.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 03:12:33 pm
content: Quote from: snik on August 07, 2016, 01:54:18 pmYou have plugged the probe into the signal generator output.What bandwidth is that probe?Are you sure the probe compensation is adjusted properly?Even if the rated probe bandwith exceeds 100MHz by a fair margin, its frequency response will not be perfectly flat. From my experience, even 300MHz and higher rated probes can drop up to 2dB at 100MHz (and read up to 2dB high at 250MHz in return).Make a direct connection with quality coax cable and switch the scope input to 50 ohms, then check again.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 03:40:29 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on August 07, 2016, 01:58:21 pmIn video it looks more like there is probe connected to SDG output. So if this is correct termination and for look scope frequency response... no, there is nothing right for this purpose.@snic ask if this is normal with this scope.I can answer, if we do not know anything but what is in the video. Yes this is very normal for this kind of playing.Btw, where is SDS1102X front panel knobs.This is example about how oscilloscope frequence response can not measure at all. With this method can only "wonder" what all "miracles" happend...Btw, oscilloscope probe in SDG output... source impedance is 50ohm.If look only one thing (and there is many what affect) probe cap is around 20pF if it is "usual" around hundred MHx 10x probe.If it is 20pF with 10MHz its reactance is around 800 ohm. With 100MHz reeactance is around 80 ohm. Think about it.Oscilloscope frequency response measurement need constant level over frequency band in scope input terminal and exatly just there. (also this is much more complex thing if look even bit more deep.) Example. Someone have scope what have 1Mohm input and input capasitance is say example 15pF. Now one connect 50ohm feed thru terminator to input. Then he happy believe his input is now 50ohm input. Bullshit. Only for DC.

author: snik
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 03:41:30 pm
content: The Probe is an agilent Probe with high frequency, didn't know exactly 250 or 300 MHz.Have also used my 4 Coax-Cables with 50 Ohm terminated. All the same.Was Sitting all the night when I see error to figure out what's wrong but it seems it is the scope. But what could cause the Problem ?I have also ooened the scope and compare it with Fotos from Daves teardown of the sds1202x but it looks okay at first overview.

author: crazyguy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 04:25:29 pm
content: Quote from: snik on August 07, 2016, 01:54:18 pmSiglent SDS1102X v Rigol MSO1074Z Part A-Vert/Horiz by tomtektesthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLzq3IyGpOQ#t=17m00sIn his test result the -3dB cut-off frequency is at ~173MHz

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 07:00:16 pm
content: Quote from: snik on August 07, 2016, 03:41:30 pmDo youknowreally this SDG flatness up to 100MHz. This is SDG2042X.What youknowabout actual real signal level in oscilloscope input terminal. Do you have any instrument for check it.This because I do not trust this SDG2042X level accuracy with 100MHz (and specially when load reactance is what ever)One other thing. Do you have good quality feed thry 50ohm terminator. If you have, do test so that you use scope input high impedance with this terminator. Then other test without it and scope internal 50ohm as termination. As short 50ohm coaxial as possible. Also if you have example 10dB atenuator, put it to scope input when use scope internal 50ohm.Then use (just for reference) 300mV-pp sinewave for test.In some message you say Hantek cheap scope show it better, you think. How you know it show more right. it is other and good question.If you can not see difference when you measure with this agilent probe connected directly to SDGoutput BNC and then good coaxial terminated with 50ohm, sorry but it is hard to belive. I expect least some visible difference. Not only between 10 and 100MHz points but also in whole response shape. (with peak mode, roll, and SDG sync you can produce whole response curve.Until you know what is signal level really in scope input we can not say anything sure.Is it possible you can use real trusted leveled RF generator.I have measured several SDS1102X scopes and everyone -3dB point related to 1MHz reference level is always over 140MHz with all V/div settings in two bottom V band. (whole V range is divided to 3 bands)And for sidemark, I have measured lot of Hantek's (as I previously have sold these, and I teest every single scope what I sell, everyone. I know what its freq response hassle is - really. So if Hantek tell signal flatness is better, it can be true or it can be wrong. Of course it is possible it is more right but, with tens of Hantek experience, sorry but I do not believe anything what this crap show until I really know individual Hnatek what I have measured then I can somehow trust how much it lie. (all scopes lie, indepeendent of brand and price, one less than other etc..IF this SDS1102X freq response is really out of specification then just send it to repair, it have warranty.I believe you have not adjusted this front end "accidentally" when you have opened it. Btw, why you open it if you think something is wrong and there is warranty. And even more strange because you are in Germany and Siglent service is also there.Specifications:Bandwidth FlatnessDC ~ 10%(BW): ± 1 dB10% ~ 50%(BW): ± 2 dB50% ~ 100%(BW): + 2 dB / -3 dBBut first need measure it really.

author: snik
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 08:46:02 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on August 07, 2016, 07:00:16 pmBut also in the original Range up to 40 MHz the Voltage drops at the SDS1102X...Have check the SDG with two other scopes (Rigol DS1102Z and Hantek DSO5102P), there the Signal looks like it should be.Also tested Signal at an HM5012 Spectrum Analyzer.QuoteHave got more 50Ohm Attentuators, tested all, all the same. Tested with Internal (Measeured 51Ohm). My Coaxes are two with 1 meter and one with an 0,5 meter. Tested all cables and also with Probe and also tested with the other scopes - at the other scopes no problem only at Siglent.QuoteAt the Hantek the Voltage doesn't drop and shows the right Values until at the end at the Frequency range, but thats okay. Also at Rigol Signal is also bang on.QuoteMy Problem isn't some mV more or less. (Have you look at the Video ?) There is a constant linear Voltage drop - tarting at low frequency up to the end. With all cables, Frequencys and probes i tested.This problem doesn't occur at the other scopes. Only at the Siglent.QuoteNo, not in short time.QuoteAs i wrote above, also tested at a Rigol and at a Analyzer. All your questions, that was what i also thinking about and tested. The Hantek is really cheap creepy Stuff (That why i bought the Siglent) , but here it is bang on at the Signal Voltage, the Rigol too.QuoteNo - there was nothing "accidentally" happen ( except the broken seal) The issue was before i open it ...QuoteBought the Siglent from an chinese eBay Seller for a (very) good price. It was a Seller who have a small bunch of (Black ?) items here in germany (without cusoms duty). That's maybe the reason for the issueI will not asked Siglent Germany for warranty, because i didn't buy it from an offical Reseller.That's the price you pay some time with these cheap seller on ebay, but i knew that risk beforeNow i must search the failure (Or put it in the dumpster).Was hoping somebody have a hint for me.Thanks for the Help.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 08:56:23 pm
content: You could always try to send it in for warranty. Any idea about the age of the scope?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 09:20:06 pm
content: Quote from: snik on August 07, 2016, 08:46:02 pmWhen it arrive how it was. Originally siglent sealed carton?Did it come with calibration certificate?Are there any signs that it was perhaps localized for China domestic markets?There is some adjustments in front end but I'm not sure how much it can help.But first, ask what Siglent think if you can get some help for it. Where ever buy but it is still Siglent original genuine SDS1102X product (or is it?).(inside China domestic markets there are models:SDS1052XSDS1072XSDS1102XSDS1202X)

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 10:01:56 pm
content: Sounds like the input divider frequency compensation is not ok.Have you tried with a smaller signal that doesn't require input attenuation? This might be the case for vertical settings 100mV/div and less, but I cannot know exactly, maybe RF-Loop does. If the issue disappears at the lower voltage ranges, it most likely is an input divider compensation issue.Check the serial number and try tp find out if it is suspicios. Maybe the Chinese guy sold you a null-series unit that he somehow managed to acquire and that was never intended to be sold, maybe also never got properly calibrated/adjusted.

author: snik
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 02:40:32 am
content: Here a short update. "Fixed" my problem.After some looking and measuring in the Frontend i recognize that at the AD8370 Output (Pin 8/9) is an Capacitor. So i compare with Dave's teardown pictures of the SDS1202X and ... there is no Cap.Look here :Then i desoldered the cap at channel 2 to take some measurements and this is the result :Here i have a 300mVpp Voltage at both Channels, Ch1 (yellow) is with Cap and Ch2 (Pink) is without. Looks pretty goodSo i think Siglent use this Capacitors for Bandwidth limiting.Now i removed both and now i'm happy with the result

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 06:53:10 am
content: Electronics world is full of big and small miracles.btw, can you measure this capasitance value enough accurately?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 03:04:02 pm
content: Still wondering why that capacitor was there. 50 or 70 Mhz version maybe which got the wrong sticker on the casing??

author: snik
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 03:33:24 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 14, 2016, 03:04:02 pmFirmware say its's a SDS1102X. Under the mainboard is a sticker (See attachment). Maybe someone have a clue with the numbers.QuoteThe cap was something around 10/12pF.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 03:47:30 pm
content: Quote from: snik on August 14, 2016, 02:40:32 amWhat ever is reason but most important is you are happy with result.But AFAIK all labels etc tell it is factory original genuine SDS1102X.Btw, with external high quality feed thru terminator + 6dB attenuator, very short cable and scope input 1Mohm I have measured normal factory original SDS1102X -3dB over 180MHz using 300mVpp high quality sine. Scope V/div of course 50mV/div with this signal. Using longer cable, without extra attenuator and scope input internally 50ohm, result worse. BW shape worse and -3dB nearly 50MHz lower. We can measure frequency response with so different tools etc..Also, it is not real 50ohm impedance over freq range when only add parallel 50ohm resistor with 1Mohm 18pF input. Reflections in cable may produce many fun "things"... in worst case also inside signal source leveling system.

author: snik
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 10:42:06 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on August 15, 2016, 03:47:30 pmI have made only for the measurement an short RG316 Cable. Measurement was with an external Terminator but without an attenuator. You see on my picture above, now without the cap the scope can do much more BWThe only reason for me, why Siglent put in the Cap, is for Bandwidth limitations. For what else ?Would like to know if this capacitor is in all SDS1102X or if only mine was an exception. Can't really believe that.Without the capacitor the scope maybe can go over the 200 MHz but for now i have no HF signal generator to test that.For the "normal" 100MHz BW the scope is now really good and that is in the moment all what i need

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 04:44:18 pm
content: For the inbuilt AWG on this series of DSOs (Plus and S models), new EasyWave software:http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/Software/EasyWave_V100R001B01D01P34.rarNoteThis isNOTFW, it is PC software for AWG remote management over LAN or USB.UI screenshot

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 09:04:45 am
content: So following on from general discussion in other threads about DSO channel offset and baseline noise here are a few screenshots showing real levels and how they might affect real measurements. If anything these might confirm some of the tricks Dave used in his vids "Why are DSO's so Noisy ?"I say "tricks" but these are some of the most widely usedsimplemethods to clean up a waveformif and when needs be.SDS1102X+ 500uV/div, 50 Ohm input,DOTmodeFW P06Source:50 OhmSDG810 (Siglent's cheapest AWG series)2mV @ 1 MHzI have done these shots in 2 sessions, 1 of which the instruments were not warm or Autocal'ed so there is some little variation in the UI indicated levels.Along with image labels the info in the GUI should explain all.500 uV GND coupledOpen input showing channel offset, indicated onscreen when the "Set Trigger to 50%" is pressed.Full BW 500uV/div and holdoff increased to 600ns for stable display (AWG jitter?)20 MHz BW limitBW Limit and 4 AveragesBW Limit and EresAnd finally Full BW, Colour and Infinite PersistThere's a multitude of minor measurement differences in these shots, the frequency counter and OSD are somewhat sensitive to trigger levels and noise at this low level (2 mV) input.Enjoy.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 09:38:09 am
content: I would have used a 20dB or 40dB attenuator on the generator. That way the noise from the generator gets reduced so you -in theory- only see the noise contribution of the scope.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 09:50:51 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 24, 2016, 09:38:09 amVarious connection methods including a Tek 50 Ohm 10x BNC attenuator were attempted to evaluate the impact on the displayed waveform and as differences were so minor only straight 50 Ohm BNC to BNC was used.

author: vpv
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 04:41:10 pm
content: Hello!I bought Siglent SDS1102X and so far I'm very pleased.I have one question: when I check in "Information", there is "PAS" OptionName.What is PAS?Thank you!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 07:45:30 pm
content: Welcome to the forum.PAS is Power Analysis.There is a whole suite of tools within used to measure and calculate efficiencies in SMPS design.Use requires voltage and current probes.

author: vpv
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 08:14:40 pm
content: Thank you very much for your reply!I have never had read about this option and I did not know that comes with these oscilloscopes.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 08:47:19 pm
content: Quote from: vpv on September 02, 2016, 08:14:40 pmTBH there's little documentation except in the SDS2000 series user manuals.Even the later SDS2kX have the functionality installed but it's not apparent as it only operates in a special mode ATM.How mature this option is I'm unsure, one can only imagine it's hidden as it still has some bugs.Something our beta testers need to get finished so it's better documented and available to all.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2016, 11:13:20 pm
content: All the SDS1kX series of DSO's have a 15% saving for September.Contact your local reseller for their pricing.Use the Where to Buy link on the Siglent .com, EU or US sites to find your local seller.Eg. the 100 MHz 2 channel model (not Plus) is now listed @ $424 on the US site and Decode option is free.http://siglentamerica.com/qyxwxx.aspx?id=4896&sid=216Promotion offers may differ in other regions.

author: vpv
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2016, 08:46:33 pm
content: Why for Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope has a theme with 119 pages, but for Siglent SDS1102X has only 5?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2016, 08:56:56 pm
content: Quote from: vpv on September 24, 2016, 08:46:33 pmTheme?Do you mean datasheets and manuals ?SDS1000X datasheet = 15 pagesSDS1000X+ manual = 204 pagesAll documents:http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-wd.aspx?id=4688&tid=1&T=2

author: vpv
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2016, 09:19:56 pm
content: No, I mean themes(topic) in this forum.Much has been written and discussed about Rigol DS1054Z, and almost nothing about Siglent SDS1102X for example.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2016, 09:51:09 pm
content: Quote from: vpv on September 24, 2016, 09:19:56 pmQuote from: vpv on September 02, 2016, 04:41:10 pmThen you should start a thread with your opinions, likes, dislikes and suggestions of any improvements needed.There's a number of members with these DSO's and feedback is always welcome.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2016, 10:21:18 pm
content: There is now a # of vids of these scopes on Youtube, not so many very recent and most posters do not haverealfamiliarity with these DSO's.A recent one that spends some time running through the UI that might be useful for some:28 minsAnother that a part of has been linked previously in this thread that is somewhat out of date as the Plus models with MSO are now available.Siglent SDS1102X v Rigol MSO1074Z36 mins

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 05:05:58 am
content: Showing a sine wave on the screen of the scope, is really basic basic basicAt least he could have walked through some menus! This video is not very useful!

author: vpv
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 11:39:57 am
content: Thanks, tautech for these videos.Before I buy Siglent SDS1102X, about six months I watching the videos and reading the forums to decide which oscilloscope to buy - Siglent SDS1102X or Rigol DS1054Z.I noticed that more has been written and discussed about Rigol DS1054Z than Siglent SDS1102X. But the most comments about Rigol were to software bugs, hardware problems and how to hack Rigol.I purposely drew attention to the number of posts to show who oscilloscope is better. Obviously at Siglent not software and hardware problems and therefore we do not discuss it.P.S. Sorry for my bad English.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 12:40:31 pm
content: That is bad way to make a choice! You better investigate which oscilloscope has the most mature firmware (least bugs) and best features the moment you want to buy it.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 12:45:54 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 28, 2016, 12:40:31 pmI'm quite sure member vpv did his homework as you'll see in this post that you didn't bother to read.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1017493/#msg1017493Trolling again nctnico?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 01:08:10 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 29, 2016, 12:45:54 amNo just stating that choosing a scope based on which one has the least post/pages written about it isn't a good way to determine which scope has the least bugs as vpv is suggesting.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 04:36:01 am
content: New manual for these DSO's.SDS1000X and X+ combined manual:http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/UserManual/SDS1000X&Xplus_UserManual_UM0101X-E02A.pdf

author: znroot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 02:07:30 pm
content: Any news about the Power Analysis of the SDS1000X series?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 09:28:19 am
content: Some peoples asked from me that if I can somehow explain History function and Sequence function.People who sit with me of course with oscilloscope + pen and paper it is easy to explain and also show.After then I make freehand paper draw + text bit more clean. Perhaps it may help someone to imagine somehow better what these are.Note that in SDS2kX there is lot of more wfm memory (140M) + also of course then much more waveform history buffer memory.Amount of waveform history buffer memory is not defined in specification so this have perhaps also confused peoples.When user turn Sequence mode on it also may feel strange because depending settings, what you see on display looks like very slow.It need remember that even if it capture 80000 waveforms (segments) in one Sequence, it do not update display at all. There is only raw ADC sample points pushed to memory. After Sequence is ready, it start process every individual waveform from buffer for display, producing perhaps line or sinc curve between dots in every waveform (segment) and this all for every 80000 segment and also producing intensity gradient. Every 80000 waveform is stacked to one display (old error when it show only reduced amount of segments after Sequence ready is repaired time ago. Also in this error in older FW when search memory, they all are there).After then it stop or continue next Sequence, depending user selections.Sequence mode segment buffer and normal use waveform history buffer is same. Also view tool is same "History".Attached this some kind of "explanation" image.Edit/Add:It need explain bit more. There was question about history record data.First it need understand that it is very different thing if we talk about display memory or acquisition memory. It can think that display memory is just pixel map for display. There is not anymore (exept in some special cases) pure raw ADC data.When scope capture "waveform" say example 14kpts this go from ADC to sampling memory (this is lenght what often see in specifications "memory length" or how they name it).Displayed waveform length is always 700 points horizontally. Siglent captured waveform length is always compressed to display waveformd width (700pixel). What is captured length is what you see, there is not overlapp. No part of waveform unvisible out from right or left side. Whole capture length, in this case (example) 14kpts is compressed for display 700pts. In this case 20 data points to one point (horizontally, and vertically as they are). It is bit different than some other scopes.Now, when it capture one 14k it is compressed and produced "image" compatible for display memory and mapped it to display memory together with possible previous waveform there.. Then capture next and again compress and map it to same display memory together with previous capture it continue until display memory is updated for view on TFT. More fast wfm/s more these captured waveforms are over each other in this display memory. More they hit same pixels also intensity grow. (it is bit more complex how to produce intensity in details but this is not important now)Some other oscilloscopes may record these compressed for display waveforms or sequentially whole display memory using some interval.In these cases there may be also that display map have only small part of captured waveform and rest of capture length is out from display. Often in these scopes have some kind of image what imitate display area and whole capture length. This is also case in Siglent SDS1000CML and similar.Back to Siglent SDS1000X models and waveform history buffer.Same time it capture waveform to memory (in this case 14kpts) and produce "image" from this it also copy this true capture 14kpts to waveform history buffer. Every time new waveform is captured, raw 14k data is pushed to history buffer (and stamped with trigger time).Blind time in sequential waveform buffere is same as running scope blind time. All captured real raw data is there. But still there is of course not data what is not captured when it have dead time waiting nect possible trigger event. But it is still very very different in most cases than "History" or "waveform record" what many oscilloscopes in this price class and even bit over have.After stop scope for looking history, you have access to full captured raw data instead of just display memory snap shots. In this example case up to 3912 stored 14kpts waveforms. (total bit over 54Mpts). (in this case scope settings is 1us/div 1Ch in use and 1GSa/s used. In this case wfm length is 14kpts.After you stop and look these stored waveforms they look same as in window. 700pts wide. But, there is 15kpts data for every single wfm. Just turn window zoom on and look. Or in stop mode, of course also whole screen can zoom in and out just using t/div.You can measure, use cursors and so on. You can turn it dots mode, lines, you can turn Sin(x)/x on and off (and see how it draw via true sampled points).But still, even when this is feature is really nice and what Rigol or most of competitors do not have at all you need underrstand how digital oscilloscope work and it is not continuous history. It have blind time between every capture. Just as normally running scope have.After every capture, it is waiting until it can capture next waveform. If it is R&S car price RTO or expensive Keysight top model. All these have dead time between waveforms. Only in very slow (more or less slow) some oscilloscopes can record continuous stream.In this example I use not so good 1us/div, 14kpoints, 1GSa/s.If there is signal what give trigger events enough fast, scope can capture up to 4220 waveform/s.One waveform length is 14us. One capture period is 1000000us/4220=234us So, there is (average) 220us blind time and 14us captured data.But, different time bases, different signal, different memory setting and so on all may change this blind time ratio.Remember it also depends your signal. In worst case trigger system is just agen recovered and ready for next trig but in your signal it happend just before scope can trig again. Now it is waiting when signal have next change what meet trig settings. Or if in auto modde there come auto trig before your signal trig. This is also important to remember. If this must not happen do not use "auto trig".If need less blind time then there is Sequence mode. With same settings (1Ch, 1us/div) it can capture max 65000 wfm/s so in this example case 1000000/65000 = 15.4us. 14us wfm lenth and 1.4us blind time cap between waveforms (segments). But seqment mode have other limit. Between whole sequences it need long pause for process all captured data at once for diplay memory for view)For max amount of waveforms in history buffer you can look table about wfm/s speeds where is also sequence speed and all needed infomation. Using 10ns/div wfm history buffer can keep 80000 waveforms. (54M wfm buffer lenth is not available with all t/div settings. It is compromize with many variables)Summarized in brief:In history waveform buffer, there is real raw full used memory length waveforms. It is NOT display memory map history.It is real captured waveforms "raw data" history buffer, Image processing is totally out from this process when it push every single captured full memory length waveform data to buffer.

author: jvhb
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 06:15:07 pm
content: Hi RF Loop, thanks for all your informative posts on the Siglent scopes. Good work!I have been looking at the SDS2104X for a while (since the special offers began), but was hoping to see a review on the Eevblog before buying. But perhaps Dave doesn't have the 2204X unit from the teardown any longer?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 07:00:55 am
content: Quote from: jvhb on October 27, 2016, 06:15:07 pmWelcome to the forum.No he doesn't. He had it on loan from Charles his local Siglent distributor.These models are on promotion at the moment, that is if you bought the SDS2104X, you'd get a SDS2204X.So if you are looking at the SDS2104X, you'd only need to buy at the SDS2074X price.There's a few other forum members that have these DSO's so anything else you'd like to know is probably best asked in this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/

author: jvhb
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 05:12:14 pm
content: Allright, thanks for the info

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 07:40:27 am
content: Some differences between Rigol DS1102Z and Siglent SDS1102XOf course there is lot of things and features in both and this is NOT complete list at all. Also it must NOT read as Which one is better.I do not give any kind of recommendation what brand or model is better.Better for individual user is highly dependent what user need and what things he like or not like.When we talk oscilloscopes, oscilloscope need be good enough. After then come if it is good Logic analyzer for state and/or time analyze, if it is good Serial communication analyzer, or if it is good multimeter or if it is good paper weight or there is fft (real fft analyzers are whole other things) or torch or good for hobby corner decorating. If you really Need 3 or 4 channel and this is must, then you need select 4 channel model.In my own use, 1-2 channels is enough in 99.5% from total scope hours. Even inside this 0.5% things can easy solve with 2 channel + ext trig or just 2 channels but is more nice to use >2 channel. Then very small part is when really Need 3-4 channels. But, I have only over 40 years experience with scopes. Maybe when I get more experience this change, or if things where I need scope change. But, this is my individual case. This is reason why I also have 4 channel scopes and not only 2 channel scopes what I mostly use. I have, and also I use, still also analog scopes. Different needs, different scope. This is why I use also still some times analog scopes and what ever digital scope changes new models etc... one do not change - never - I still use some times analog. Not for nostalgic reasons, but in some cases for earn money. So simple. Just because they are ultra fast use in some service situations and I can trust there is not digital "miracles" and "traps", no endless menu searching for adjust. I can just look even via mirror scope screen and without looking adjustments I can "blind adjust" all what need and fast. No one digital scope can beat this usability in some special cases.If you really do not know what you need then you may think you need all features. Just because you do not know what you need or do you even need oscilloscope. Even if you really do not need oscilloscope and do not deeply know how they work and what they are, still they are fun to have. Some day it may give some inspiration what can study more. So, if your hobby is some how electronic and if you have free money for use, buy oscilloscope if you first have more important things. Buy what ever scope, it is better than no scope at all.But, without enough knowledge,how expensive and superior scope you have, it do not rise your skills and knowledge anything. Even worst case too fine and complex high performance scope may lead even more problems. You perhaps see something what you must not care but you start think it is important, just because you do not know. It need knowledge and experience what visible thing about electric phenomenon on the screen is important and what not.You know poor skills photographer. Do he take better photo if he buy expensive professional grade camera instead of cheap pocket camera. No, perhaps even more bad. Now he think all adjustments and features etc and he forget most important think, picture itself and basics of image "art".Do not think if you buy entry level or bit better scope and then you want it last next ten years. Why... when your knowledge and skills go up you want change scope to better match your changed needs. Throw then away this 2 - 5year old "ancient" digital scope and buy new. If you have high quality and robust analog, well keep it still next 10 - 30 year independent of what ever digital you have.You can not now find "best" scope what meets your needs next 10 year or next 20 year. In this time all change in digital scopes. Even after 1 - 2 year use your needs may change and just keep old as second scope (some times nioce to have more than one) or sell it as long as it is still not ancient for entry level use. If it is good brand like Rigol, Siglent-today, Goodwill, etc.. you can sell these in second hand markets if you do not wait same price what is new. (of course big names also, but I do not talk now these because this is about under 1k$ scopes)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 10:03:56 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on October 31, 2016, 07:40:27 amSorry but this is a rather cheap attempt to sell a 2 channel scope in a world where 4 channels have become the standard. Noting evrything optional on the DS1000Z which is optional as being worse than Siglent is justbecause everybody hacks the rigol DS1000Z and has everything which is optional included for free anyway. I'm also missing comparison of features like FFT length, limits on Hi-res modes, decoding and so on. You write you don't want to make one scope look better than the other but meanwhile that is exactly what you are doing. I know Tektronix and Agilent do the same type of comparisons but they make themselves look ridiculous by comparing paper specs and leave the details which really make the difference out. Don't become some marketing droid!

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 11:39:43 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 31, 2016, 10:03:56 amDo you mean like you? No, this I can promise - forever.

author: smarteebit
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 12:53:15 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on October 31, 2016, 11:39:43 amGuys, relax. Peace, & inner peace. @nctnico @rf-loop

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2016, 07:45:05 am
content: Added more explanationunder image to this previous messageabout history wfm buffer working.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2016, 08:49:02 am
content: New FW coming soon.Example bit improved FFT etc.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2016, 05:31:54 pm
content: SDS1000X+ MSOIf use LA together with analog signals it is also important to null time difference between analog signals and digital signals.Many times there is different signal propagation delay to scope inputs and also internal skew between analog channels and digital channels.Deskew can do quite easy. Connect enough digital lines and both analog channels to same physical point what have suitable signal, example square wave with well under 10ns risetime and example level around 5Vpp. (example 0 - 5V).Adjust digital bus 1 and 2 User defined threshold to 2.5V and CH1 as trigger source, edge, rising and level 2.5V.(in image cursor is set so that it crosses around trigger position. (you do not need cursor at all, here it is only for viasualization)Adjust CH1 Deskew until Ch1 rising edge is around middle of digital channels rising positions.After then adjust Ch2 deskew so that skew is minimized. Average you can watch example using automatic measurement function "Skew" with statistics as in image.After you go back to normal iscolloscope use remember zero these deskew settings for avoid confusions.After deskew you can use also selected digital channel for trig of course. Skew to analog is now ok. If you do important time measurements between analog and digital. Repeat deskew when something have changed and if you are doing important time measurements. With very low speed MSO deskew setting is perhaps insignificant. Skew between digital channels can not adjust and it is specified as+1 digital channel sample period.Deskew.Just for fun. (nothing tested, just one random display example)

author: vpv
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2016, 12:18:04 pm
content: New FW arrived!http://www.siglent.com/ENs/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=1726&tid=15SDS1000X/X+_firmware_UpdateReleaseDate 2016/11/7 17:24:33Version: P13.03For SDS1000X/X+ Series1. Increased FFT to 16K points2. Supported saving self-calibration data.3. Supported auto setup DC signal or signal with DC offset.4. Fixed bug: Scope can not trigger correctly while take serial trigger mode and MSO is trigger source.5. Fixed bug: Scope can only measure once or decode once while burst two signal.6. Fixed bug: The self calibration info is not correct in Russian Language7. Fixed some other bugsUpdate instructions (very important!)It need to update twice to update the machine from 1.1.1.2.6 (or below this version) to 1.1.1.2.13R3 (or above). The first time is from 1.1.1.2.6 to 1.1.1.2.13R3, the second time is from 1.1.1.2.13R3 to 1.1.1.2.13R3 itself.

author: diodak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2016, 07:31:00 pm
content: How can I understand this update from 1.1.1.2.13R3 1.1.1.2.13R3? Upload two times the same file?

author: vpv
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2016, 07:38:51 pm
content: Quote from: diodak on November 07, 2016, 07:31:00 pmYes. I did the same.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2016, 07:53:28 pm
content: Quote from: diodak on November 07, 2016, 07:31:00 pmIn pdf inside update .rar package:It is very clear:QuoteDo 1st update to 13R3.After it tell it is ready, turn power Off and then On again.And then next round and this IS mandatory.(your version is now 13R3 if you read info screen but update is not fully ready. You need now run update 13R3 again over this same 13R3.)Do 2nd update using same 13R3.After it tell it is ready, turn power Off and then again On.Now update is ready and scope is ready for normal use.Do not ask why two times. Just do it.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2016, 11:27:35 am
content: Some very simple examples about MSO display for better imagine how it looks in use.LA example Pattern trig with Analog and Digital channelsPattern trigger. AND: CH1 H, CH2 X, D0 - D7 LLLLXXXX, D8 - D15 XXXXXXXXLA example Pattern trig with Digital channelsPattern trigger. AND: CH1 X, CH2 X, D0 - D7 HLLLLLLL, D8 - D15 XXXXXXXX(Analog signal CH1 is from old Wavetek 23 function generator Signal output and Digital channels D0-D7 are connected its LF (<1kHz) generation DAC 8 data lines. Yes it have 8bit ADC. DAC0800.)LA example Pattern trig with Digital channels. (Window zoom can use)Waveform History buffer works also for mixed signals, Analog and Digital together.After normal run scope stopped pushing "History" button (can stop also using Stop and after then push History for look history. Then searched buffer and looked number 7 acquisition (most high number is latest and most low number is oldest.Zoom works of course also when look History buffer in stop mode.Zoomed more. (not max)Window Zoom works also in history view. If measurements, in Window zoom mode measurements come from bottom window!Digital channels vertical position can set "High", "Middle" and "Low" if 8 channels is in use all these can set, if 16 channels, only High and Middle can use. (middle fills from bottom to top when 16 channel in use)In this image selection is High.In this image setting is MiddleHere setting is Low.Also LA channels order can change and also can select only these channels what is in use.Bus data display can show Hexa, Binary and Decimal. There can select what digital channels are connected to Bus data display.Note: With this FW (13R3) when use Pattern trigger for digital channels there need be least one Analog channel on. Instead of if you use it or not. If not use it can move out from image and leave it for "don't care" (X) state in pattern settings.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2016, 01:54:23 am
content: Some fiddles with the new FFT interface provided in recent FW.Signal source SDG1062X 1 KHz 50mV 50Direct BNC connection, 50SDS1kX internal terminationThere are 3 pages in the UI for FFT settings inculding 3 options for FFT display: Full screen, Split screen or Exclusive FFT display.Settings other than are shown in the following shots: Center Frequency 1 KHz and horizontal 500 Hz/divFull screen.SDS1kX FSExclusive FFT displaySDS1kX ExEditThe Horizontal Trigger position indicator (blue down pointer) hides the Center frequency as set by the user, scrolling it sideways reveals the settings made by the user.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2016, 06:43:48 am
content: So FW 13R3 seems to have been pulled and a new version 13R5 is now available:http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SDS1000X%20P13.03R5.rarFrom the Changelog and update instructions:1. Fixed bug: the wrong UART decode2. Fixed bug: the wrong MSO threshold that case MSO function unusualUpdate instructions (Very important ! )It need toUpdate twiceto Update the machine from 1.1.1.2.6 (or below this version) to 1.1.1.2.13R5 (or above).The first time is from 1.1.1.2.6 to 1.1.1.2.13R5, the second time is from 1.1.1.2.13R5 to 1.1.1.2.13R5 itself.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2016, 07:11:44 am
content: Here some tiny fast check after this "MrWolf" test (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg1089111/#msg1089111)I want look what SDS1000X do in same situation.Siglent auto measurement values added. If min max are same then only one value.Two screenshots for visualize how "clever" oscilloscope use is when using 1ms/div for measure 10ns rise time. (10ns rise time adjusted by generator).If I do first image measurement for rise time or period I feel like just like kids playing... 1ms/div and try measure 30us period or 10ns rise time.It take 1second to turn TB knob for right time base and much less time for check rise time just pushing TB knob for zoom and get more right value independent of if it is stop or run mode.Of course in non zoomed 1ms/div and this kind of signal, perhaps it is better Siglent show <200 ns or just ---(it need also note that what ever memory/capture length is this whole capture length ( 14 * t/div) is on the screen, no overlap)1. "MrWolf" test with Rigol and added with Siglent SDS1000X data.2. Just for imagine what this signal is looking when 1ms/div3. As 2. but zoomed

author: MrWolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2016, 12:03:48 pm
content: It can be derived from the data that "screen sampling" formula or "end user resolution" for SDS1000X+ is1 / (Timebase / 833.3...)1 / (Timebase / 1666.666...)for thebulk of the data(50us - 1ms ranges). Meaning it's not doing "pixel math" and has some larger memory buffer. However it would be wise for system to display "<=" not "=" to hint operator may have to zoom. Operator has no indication that measurement accuracy is not reflected by sampling rate / memory depth. In the 1ms timebase case at 1GS/s and 14Mpts would be pretty logical to assume +-1ns precision unless manual states otherwise (does it?).

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2016, 10:44:01 pm
content: Quote from: MrWolf on December 14, 2016, 12:03:48 pmFully agree that there must be some warning about highly reduced accuracy. Just example <(value) or some other indication for user.I do not know if there is sampling buffer then secondary buffer and finally image map. But one is quite sure, Siglent do not flush out (decimate) real sampled points, all is still mapped to display width, all max 14M sample points. But interesting (least for me) is how it read true sampling buffer for measurements (I can see there some strange things in some tests) and how it then map all to 700 horizontal columns on display.Add: After many tests using different known signals (using different pulse widths, different rise and fall times etc.. for detect maximum depth of measurement "buffer".It looks likethere is 70k. If acquisition length is 70 there is one sample in one measurement horizontal "block". If acquisition length is over 70k samples are in same sample buffer column (or block). Example if length is 700k then 10 samples are in same sample buffer column. When samplerate is 1GSa/s and memory is 70k (and same for meeasurement) it can clearly detect that data used for measurements have 1ns resolution (but in this case it do not have fine interpolation between real sample points. Using some more fast time bases, it use also interpolation data between true sample points (as it use oversampling / fine interpolation also of course for fine positioning for minimize trig jitter. Also every sample is mapped to display buffer but its length is 700 points. (display waveform length (pixels)). In same case, 700k, same display column have 1000 samples (with different levels and overlayed, what also is part of intensity gradation process) I do not have any idea if there is real separate measurement buffer (HW) or if this all is how system read sample buffer. (also it need note that even with 14Mpts all points are still always mapped to display)Why they do this for auto measurements? One reason is perhaps compromise between speed and available quite limited processing power for handle data for measurements. If there is not real fixed hardware buffer for measurement data, then there may be possible to do full resolution automatic measurements (if someone make new FW for this) even with max acq depth but with very reduced wfm/s speed due to lack of brute force for data handling. Case with PC scopes are very different. (no name)Acquisition Box only collect data and there is full power of PC for handle this captured data.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 01:02:20 pm
content: As told previously. It looks like for automatic measurements SDS1000X/X+ use 70k data. (tests made using SDS1102X+)If 1 channel is in use real time one shot samplerate is 1GSa/s if t/div is 1ms/div or more fast.If in this case t/div is 5us/div sample buffer is 70k aand every separate samples have own place in buffer. Display waveform length is always on the screen 700 pixel. Independent of time base.If t/div is 1ms/div sample buffer length is 14Mpts. Whole buffer length is (always) same as display screen widht. All sample points are mapped to display. It do not never drop out samples. But when there is more than 700 samples then group of samples are collected to one time position on the screen pixel map. In attached example image there is 70k sample buffer. Display have 700 pixel colums (in wfm area) so there is 100 sample for one display column.If sample buffer length is 700k then 1000 samples and so on. In this case,Measurement Buffer Legth is still 70k. What happend now. Now need push 10 samples to one place in measurement buffer. And how it do this - I do not know and I have no evidence if it just do raw decimation or something more clever. When time base is more slow, sample buffer lenght is more (if user have not set limit) This means of course that horizontal (time) resolution for measurements drops. For 700k memory 1GSa/s effective resolution for automatic measurements is 10ns.In image there is used dot mode and slow acquisition so that every screen refresh have only one wfm. This is because I want see rising and falling edges separate sample points.Signal from SDG5082Pulse, period 60ns and exactly 50% duty. Pulse 10/90 risetime and fall time is adjusted for 10ns (note: due to EasyPulse system adjustable rise and fall times produce some small jitter in risetime so it explain part of risetime s.d.(more about this later)(trace in image is single shot)

author: MrWolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 01:56:36 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on December 16, 2016, 01:02:20 pmI did put your test intoproper table now. It might me "more clever" because end-user resolution seems to exceed the case with primitive decimation.At least with Rigol it's quite straight forwardTimebase / 25(1200/4 for whole screen). But here I getTimebase / 1666.666.... Gives 93333,333.../4 for whole screen following Rigol logic. But it does not make sense hardware wise so math must be bit more clever than in Rigol case. But I know absolutely nothing about formal theory how to calculate this stuff. I just observe nature so to speak...

author: analog_user
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 11:33:46 am
content: Hi,does anyone know if it is possible to visualize the generated waves at the same time than the input channels in Siglent oscilloscopes with integrated AWG?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 04:18:56 pm
content: Quote from: analog_user on January 03, 2017, 11:33:46 amOnly if they are fed into a spare channel, unlike a standalone AWG where an indicative waveform is shown on the display.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 04:01:49 pm
content: I thought some people might get a kick out of this YouTube video.The user is demonstrating a SDS1202X with a music synthesizer.

author: znroot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2017, 07:01:11 am
content: Hi,I observe a very curious bug on my SDS1102X scope.As you can see on the attached images, at startup, for the first minutes both channel have a small DC ground (about 20mV) offset, that goes to zero once the scope is working from more than 10 minutes.The problem persist also after calibration (I calibrate it and leave it off for two hours, turn it on and it still have the DC offset), with the default Siglent passive probe disconnected or passive probe tip shorted, no matter of the channels' configuration.Anyone have the same problem?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2017, 07:26:00 am
content: I don't know thisfor surebut it would seem normal behaviour as equipment warms to operating temperatures.As the manual states a Self Cal should not be performed until the unit has been on for ~20 and this is NO different to any other scope and service manuals of all brands since the early days insisted no internal adjustments are to be made until a scope has been operating for a period of time.Of course at a 5mV/div setting thiscoldoffset is quite apparent and good reason why you should let equipment reach operating temp before making measurements that require higher levels of accuracy.Nice that in Roll mode you can capture the offset decreasing as the scope warms up.Thanks for sharing.EditProbably a good subject for Dave to do a vid on.

author: znroot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2017, 09:25:10 am
content: Yes, It's a very curious behavior of the instruments but it's limited because it vanish once the scope warm up.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2017, 09:49:29 am
content: Quote from: nicolozilio on February 17, 2017, 07:01:11 amIn this case your scope drift is not ~20mV, it is ~2mV. You have there probe multiplier 10x in use.It need note that in images real setting is 500uV/div !(but probe multiplier is 10 so there is displayed 5mV/div.)There is not so many scope models where is available true 5mV/div sensitivity using probe multiplier 10.Using example Rigol DS1000Z most low real sensitivity is 50mV/div if probe set for 10x.Most sensitive 10mV/div and 20mV/div they are only zoomed 50mV/div. Also in DS2000 there is not 5mV/div real sensitivity with probe multiplier 10x because this is just digital zoom from 10mV/div.This is normal. Some individual units have more and some have less thermal drift but it is normal in this unit.I have tested every single SDS1000X what I have sold and this is normal. There is differencies between individual units, some may have even very low drift and also drift direction may vary.It looks that your individual unit is around like median.Also there is not "Quick-Cal" as there is in SDS2k series what operates automatically for compensate some drift depending time and temperature changes and selected V/div range. (if user have set this function on, in SDS1000X there is not this function)In SDS1000X vertical shift adjust DAC resolution is around 250uV. Self cal have no more resolution for adjust DC offset.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 05:03:56 pm
content: So many times there is claims that Siglent decode only from display.If people is not familiar with oscilloscope what use:What ever acquisition memory length is, it is always same as displayed waveform length on the screen.Siglent do not never hide part of acquisition length outside of display window.When Siglent decode it decode active display width, only. Yeas only. But dispplay width is whole length of acquisition memory. If it is 14M or 1.4M or what ever, whole memory length is mapped to display.Sorry these images are by finnish language. But perhaps they can give some help.Noname usual DSO.Note what is blind time and real user visible blind time.With some settings visual blind time may be lot of, due to fact that diplay width is very very narrow related to true acquisition length.A = Display windowB = Acquisition lengthC = Really blind time (user can not see, oscilloscope can not see)D = User visual blind time is same as really blind time.E = visible part of signal is same as whole signal what also oscilloscope can see.G = This random peak oscilloscope can not detect at allF = This random peak is also in displayed area.ISiglent SDS1000X, 2000XIn Siglent A=B=E and C=DA = Display windowB = Acquisition lengthC = Really blind time (user can not see, oscilloscope can not see)D = User visual blind timeE = visible part of signalG = This random peak oscilloscope can not detect at allF = This random peak is captured but user can see only if he stop and scroll this area to display(if you have good luck it exist in this acquisition when you stop, typically these scopes alsodo not have history buffer)Example if sample memory length is only 1kSa and 500MSa/s is in use and horizontally 2ns/div.If display is 10 div width there is 10 sample period on the display and 990 sample points invisible outside of scope screen and what ever there is you do not see it. You are blid for there. Also between every aacquisition there is time what oscilloscope do not acquire and do not even wait trigge. This is real blind time if think oscilloscope. User visual blind time is this + this part of signal what is not displayed.With Siglent you always see all what is captured. Even if memory length is 140M it is mapped to display width. There is not any reason for overlapp signal outside display. Hw based Zoom is for it.With this kind of scope user need lear bit different practice. If you want long acquisition but still want look narrow window to some signal detail. Just use Zoom. Using Zoom window scroll function you can easy and fast move to different places in whole acquisition. Just push forward or backward button and toggle for speed. (FW 13R5)Here example (using 1.4Mpts record lenght and SPI decoding)(With SDS1000X/X+ maximum decode length is 1.4M. Memory selection 14M is not in use.)First image, with 1.4M memory. Full memory length is decoded, in decode table selecter byte near end of memory. (as can see I have used quite slow SPI, because signal used is not native SPI signal. This is somekind of emulation using 3 channels function generators and MOSI, MISO are fake... (noise) just for easy demonstration.Here same signal (possible some small adjustments (no meaning) changed between this and first image. But same basics.Zoomed and Zoom window near end of whole acquisition memory length.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 07:02:49 pm
content: Now try to figure out how message number 139 relates to message number 7 AND/OR try to look at a signal edge or spike in the middle of a multi-byte SPI, I2C or CAN message without loosing the decoding. Once you understand these problems then you'll also see why 'decoding what is on screen' is so useless for any real work.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 07:56:04 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on February 18, 2017, 05:03:56 pmWait. Just to be clear, you're saying that if you set your time base to 100ns per division, and you have 1GS/s acquisition rate available to you, then your memory length is automatically set to 1400 points and there's nothing you can do to increase it save for setting a different timebase??Even if you set it up to stop after triggering?QuoteSo if you hit the "stop" button and then zoom out, you getnothing??That's, er, interesting if that's the case.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 12:12:16 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on February 18, 2017, 07:56:04 pmYes.Why need stop scope for look whole captured length using zoom out. In my view, it is a bit clumsy way.Stop and zoom out, stop and zoom out... I have so limited time for live so I do not want spend it like this.If I want full window then just stop and zoom to details using window or full screen horizontal and vertical zoom as want. But also when I stop, I can select if I look current last acquisition or previous in history buffer. (and zoom etc just as need).Why do not look whole capture length in live without need stop scope and if need details then view also these together with whole acquisition length.If I need long memory I select needed amount of memory and if it do not show enough details on the display I can use zoom. Or if I really want of course I can stop and then zoom in/out using window zoom or zoom for details using full window.But I'm bit unhappy if I have scope what can not show full capture length before I stop it and zoom out.I remember time when I first meet this working principle. My mind was adapted to work with scopes what only show small portion from acquisition memory.Both principles can do same work without any doupt. Both have pros and cons. But both need bit different driving style. Also front-wheel drive and rear-wheel drive car need bit different driving style some times. First, the user must learn and adapt to it. Same we can see in many other things also, example between RPN and arithmetic calculator. Who have adapted for arithmetic calculator say that RPN is just terrible and useless.In this image 14Mpts memory, whole memory visible and then your example 100ns/div. No need stop and zoom out.Just 14Mpts memory and zoomed in more for details. Still aall time visible in real time whole acquistion length.And more, If i really want stop and zoom in full window. Just if I stop here with this image. I can turn after then window zoom off and zoom in for deepest details or then zoom out. Where ever I can also turn window zoom on. In stop mode I get even more. I can look also previous 14M acquisition and do same things. (because there is always backround working waveform history buffer).This automatic memory length is also good for maximize amount of waveforms in waveform history buffer.If take this 100ns/div for example. One wfm length is 1400 ADC data points. When I stop scope I can look 29140 last captured waveforms and they are not image frames, they have full ADC raw data. (user can change sinc or linear interpolation or dots on when use. After stop these can free select (all these are postprocess.)Perhaps (?) Siglent can add later also manual "force memory length" function - (if there is real need for this)Personally I have not missed this feature anymore.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 05:13:14 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on February 19, 2017, 12:12:16 pmNo less clumsy than selecting a 50,000 foot view because you're forced to do so in order to see the surrounding context, and then zooming in to see the actual bit of waveform that you triggered on in the first place, i.e. the method that the Siglent forces you to use.I selected the example I did in order to make a very specific point: the Siglent won't let you zoom out even when there is no additional detail to be gained by zooming in -- itminimizesthe amount of memory available to you in a given capture. And while the method the Siglent uses gets you the maximum number of waveforms possible in the history buffer, that presumes that what you're triggering on is highly repeatable.The best memory configuration and waveform view is dependent upon what you're trying to do, and those two things (memory configuration and waveform view) are not always best joined at the hip.QuotePretty much. But the point here is that when you can't select the configuration yourself, you're forced to use a driving style that isn't necessarily optimized for your use case, and indeed may prove quite clumsy.QuoteI suspect some might be surprised by Siglent's approach here. The ability to specify the capture length wouldn't be the worst feature Siglent could add. Indeed, there are some novel ways to specify it that they could add that might prove more intuitive or more appropriate for certain use cases, e.g. rather than directly specifying the capture length in terms of samples, you might instead specify the maximum number of waveforms to capture in the history buffer, or you might specify the capture length in terms of a multiple of the timebase or a multiple of the window size.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 06:42:02 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on February 19, 2017, 05:13:14 pmHonestly I do not understand all what you say.But lets's think we have oscilloscope what capture full 14 Msample even when you use 100ns/div time base and samplerate is 1GSa/s.After you stop this scope, you can zoom out up to so that you can see whole length on the screen or you can zoom. In this case you can zoom out to 1ms/div down to example 5ns/div. In and out just as want and also scroll to what ever position.But when you run this scope you just see only this 100ns/div and rest of captured length is outside display. Visible is 1 part (in this case 1400 sample points) of whole length and unvisible is 99999 part (13998600 sample points)Visible time and visual blind time ratio is enormous.Then stop this scope so that there is this 100ns/div screen visible (1400ns screen width in time). Now you can zoom out, up to 1ms/div, so that whole 14ms is visible. Just zoom in and out as you want. But, run time you never can see whole length as long as captured lengths is more than screen width. All are there in run time but you can not see, you are blind for these. Then you think there may be some intersting and then you stop scope and now you can zoom out or scroll these details what you want.This kind of oscilloscope you want you can see here.Is it now good. It meet what you want. Now stop and zoom out or in and runtime lot of blind time.(if some people use Siglent and want emulate this other usual DSO "feature", just cover upper haalf of display with piece of carton) and stop scope.Now you can do just exactly what you want. You can zoom from 100ns/dif to 1ms/div and see all what was unvisible in runtime.But let us improve your scope.Run scope again with same settings. Now take this piece of carton out. Oh well, now you have scope what you previously want but with extra feature, now you can see also whole captured memory length. We now just add feature to your previous model.And now it looks like this:

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 07:06:28 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on February 19, 2017, 12:12:16 pmThis really makes no sense other than trying to make something which is bad look better. At short timebases you can see a part of the trace and using zoom mode you can see the same signal at two different timebase settings on DSOs which use full record length. Why would you want to limit the record length to the screen width by default? It actually limits the useability of the scope. For example: there are many cases where I want to scroll to a different part of the signal and that is easier with a fixed (maximum) record length because I don't need to change the timebase for the next capture. Also for decoding you might need more memory to also capture the start of the message even if it is off-screen (but Siglent doesn't do that anyway so why bother).

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 07:50:51 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on February 19, 2017, 06:42:02 pmI'll be happy to clarify anything that you didn't understand. Please let me know what was unclear in my message and I'll explain further.QuoteRight. 14 Msamples with 14 divisions on the scope means 1Msamples per division when zoomed out as far as you can go and still fill the screen, hence 1ms per division.QuoteYes, until you zoom out, that is what you see. However, if the nature of the waveform you're interested in is such that it shows best at 100ns/div, then the effect is that youimmediatelysee that which you're most interested in, and can then zoom outor scroll(or some combination of those) to see other parts of the waveform which preceded the trigger point or which followed the trigger point.QuoteThat's true until you stop the scope, of course, at which point you can correct for that by zooming/scrolling until you see what you're secondarily interested in (one presumes you're triggering on what you'reprimarilyinterested in and have set the scope's timebase to display that in the most suitable way).QuoteExactly.QuoteWell, the blind time and the small history buffer (in terms of waveforms captured) are obviously tradeoffs that you have to be aware of when you're using the largest memory depth available for a single capture.QuoteSo the Siglent is capable of showing a "zoomed in" portion of the waveform at runtime, so that you can always simultaneously see the entire capture and the portion of interest even while the scope continues to capture waveforms? If that's the case, then the Siglent's implementation is better than I thought, provided that:The "timebase" of the zoomed view is shown (that does seem to be the case here -- excellent)The zoomed view can be configured to always show the portion of the waveform that triggered the capture.If those attributes are not present in the Siglent, then what you're showing is still inferior to the mechanism other scopes usefor this particular use case. But if those attributes are present, then the Siglent's approach is as good as other implementations for this use case, and I'd then have to give props to Siglent for that implementation. It requires that one understand how the scope works, but that's true of any scope.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 08:33:59 pm
content: Any DSO (even the 20+ year old ones) with zoom mode (or better put: dual timebase mode) can do that while acquiring data. There is nothing special about that.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 08:44:21 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 19, 2017, 08:33:59 pmOh, well, if that's the case, then there's hardly anything to complain about with respect to the Siglent. It's just "different", not actuallyworse.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2017, 04:34:57 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 19, 2017, 08:33:59 pmAnd many of these, in runtime, least with some time/div settings hide part of acquisition length outside from display and let's take this whole case again and start new turn. In Siglent, always in runtime, display width = whole acquisition length. There is nothing out of display, never. What is acquired you also can see without stop and zoom out.

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2017, 01:18:30 pm
content: Overall I think that well implemented zoom system is better than having some part of wfm hidden. But cannot understand one thing - so does Siglent decode only from zoomed part or from whole wfm (while zoomed!)? Logical would be to have event table for everything and stuff from zoomed part somehow highlighted. So how it is?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2017, 01:38:10 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on February 20, 2017, 04:34:57 amBut this is not what I want. I want my DSO to use the full acquisition memory (or the length I have selected) because that is easier to work with. In several cases there will be interesting events outside the screen so it is usefull to be able to scroll left/right. In some cases you'll even need that data. Think about looking at an edge somewhere in a decoded data stream (for example where I2C SDA switches from input to output on a slave device). I don't care about the start but the protocol decoder will need the beginning of the message to decode it properly.

author: znroot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2017, 01:44:57 pm
content: Yes I think that should be the best mode to acquire signal because I often want to see signals out of the screen to check things or simply to move the signal's segment to decode.So no matter how the decode work but the scope should always acquire to fill the memory.

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2017, 01:59:06 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 20, 2017, 01:38:10 pmI do not understand what is the problem with "zoom logic" - you just set time/div for example at 5ms/div, zoom in 1000x, this will give 5us/div effective (or any other combo). Scroll back forth all day long stopped or live. Only potential problem is that cheap DSO w tiny screen you lose vertical pixels if zoom overview is shown. Not so much problem with PC based scope and 4k screenBut thats all tiny nuances, cannot see any fault with general logic.Moreover, if use other logic - hide some part of wfm - and my favorite autom. measurements are enabled... what if there is some nasty crap going on in hidden part that will force wrong reading to auto measurement. User would never suspect...BTW since GWI has option to use full mem on all timebases, maybe nctnico post some pics of his use cases in GWI 2000 thread? Otherwise all same talk goes in circles.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2017, 12:20:49 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 20, 2017, 01:38:10 pmThere's always the possibility that there are interesting events outside the capture buffer.Ultimately, I think how workable the Siglent approach is depends greatly upon how easy it is to use the zoom view. If it's as easy to get around that, to change the zoom window settings, etc., as it is to use the primary view, especially as regards multiple traces and the like, then the only real difference is the amount of vertical real estate you'll have during capture.Moreover, Siglent's approach gives youmuchfiner control over the size of the capture buffer compared with other scopes, since it's guaranteed that the amount captured is the amount shown on the screen (in the unzoomed portion if one is in zoom mode) -- the buffer size setting puts a cap on that, and the scope will adjust the sample rate accordingly. And finally, Siglent's approach makes it obvious, once you're aware of how it works, exactly how much time will be captured in the buffer. This is in sharp contrast with the way most other scopes work, where what you're working with is the number of points in the buffer and you have to work backwards from there in order to arrive at the amount of time the capture buffer represents (and even that is variable since the buffer remains the same size even if you change the timebase).Make no mistake: while Siglent's approach is certainly different from most, itdoeshave its advantages.Note that youcanset the size of the sample buffer, so you can control the minimum number of waveforms that are captured.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2017, 07:50:19 am
content: Try and use it and you'll see it is not a good choice. As I wrote before: if the sample buffer is adjusted depending on time/div you always have to set it to a long time, take a measurement and scroll/zoom in to an area of interest. Often I find myself looking at a specific region of a signal and once I'm satisfied I zoom out (or sometimes I just forget to adjust the timebase and zoom out after capturing data). With a fixed (long) record length the workflow is less prone to operator error and you have to adjust less on the scope and all in all work faster. The devil is in the small details. Also I don't recall any DSO which automatically chooses a smaller record length based on the time/div setting so I wonder what they have been smoking at Siglent when they came up with this idea.

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2017, 08:39:03 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 21, 2017, 07:50:19 amHm, Pico sort of does if, it always shows full capture. But control of sample points is separate from timebase, so if needed sampling rate can be reduced. Never had any trouble with this, quite logical. You just pick main timebase according to slowest signal. From there 2 options: Just zoom in single viewport or use multiple viewports. Then it basically turns to multitracetimebase scope up to digitizer limits. Did little example with demo. 3 viewports (but can be almost any combo):Scope 1 / CH1: 50ns/div (100,000x zoom)Scope 2 / CH2: 5ms/div (no zoom, set with main timebase)Scope 3 / CH3: 25us/div (200x zoom)Spectrum 1: FFTs over all tracesOther channels are hidden from viewports on purpose (can be shown if needed).To me seems Siglent follows silmilar logic, just limited to small screen. If you untie sampling rate and buffer length completely from timebase, it would probably create problems for novice users and soon there would be whining about slow wfm updates while sitting at single viewport, 1ns/divandfull mem length & sampling rate...

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2017, 10:20:01 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 21, 2017, 07:50:19 amPreviously when I have adapted to use other kind of system it feel ok and only right way. But not anymore after adapted to this working principle. Just as 40 years I drive always rear-wheel drive car and my opinion in every place was that this is only right way. Now I drive front wheel drive car and - after this one year training time - as far as I drive under 3500kg small car I do not miss at all rear-wheel drive car.I think you do not like Hewlett-Packard/Agilent/Keyshit. Do you know what they have smoked ?I do not know what they smoked in Agilent but when I'm some times home in China I smoke China Tobacco Guangxi Industrial Corporation made "Zhenlong".Still HP - best scopes what ever I have used.Of course there Siglent can add "fixed length" acquisition (or its near equivalent full window zoom) if some peoples and enough peoples "nicely ask".But I can not imagine why?

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2017, 10:36:32 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on February 21, 2017, 10:20:01 amOT: After youve worn thru front tires on your FWD (while rear still perfect) strongly suggest try AWDIf business good maybe even try AWD with rears a bit wider than front...

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2017, 10:44:08 am
content: Quote from: MrW0lf on February 21, 2017, 10:36:32 amPerhaps, if possible AWD full electric.But realistic prognose for my next "car" is this or near similar

author: znroot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2017, 12:44:44 pm
content: I'm sure is pretty a mistake to talk about such things on a baseline scope, also remembering the price slice of these scopes (SDS1000X I mean)However, the Siglent method is different from most but I think they have their logic to do this and it's all about to well know the instruments you're working on. That goes beyond the instrument and the brand of that: you HAVE to know the instrument to better use it. So, if Siglent prefers "Zoom logic" and you're working with Siglent scope you have to use that"Zoom logic" (you like it or not).But let's assume this case (don't keep in count statistical calculation averaged on more of one screen Tw time)100us => Tw = 1.4 ms. Siglent set memory lengthto 1.4M (1/10 of the total)square wave at 10 KHz (14 periods at screen)repetitive, periodic square spike, width 500ns, repetition frequency: about 143 Hz (one spike every 5 screen periods).With Siglent method (keeping in mind that you're using a 1Gsample scope) memory have a resolution of 1ns, so you have in memory only one screen (about 1.468 ms).So if you don't enable waveform persist you will see a small line 1/5 of the times the screen is refreshed (this is valid if youdon't keep in count any other statistical calculation averaged on more of one screen time, as said above).This isn't the best scope settings if you expect the spike: with Siglent you need to put the scope to show Tw >= 7 ms and you will see that spike correctly with zooming in.But if you didn't expect it you may lose it if you stop the scope in the wrong instant. That could be avoided using full memory despite of the screen time Tw and doing some more signal elaboration once data are in memory. But this mean a 10 time faster process of acquired data (if you want to maintain the same screen update rate) and maybe some other fast buffer and almost surely a faster memory.So, in my opinion, you have to well know the instruments you use first of all.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2017, 02:06:40 pm
content: Quote from: nicolozilio on February 21, 2017, 12:44:44 pmThink some other scope what use full 14M memory and same 100us/div. Think carefully what you can see with your eyes. And when you stop scope this peak may also be out from screen. If you think it is perhaps there. Of course you can zoom out and see it.But if you talk about refresh time. How you think this other scope capture this out from screen part - without time? Or how. So, final result is same, turn Siglent for 14M and that's it. Just depending what user is doing, or set this 500us/div as in your example. Now it can see, and - without any stop and zoom. And more, you can see, if want, upper window whole 7ms and lower window this 1.4ms part or as deep detail as want.And more. If want user can stop scope and push one key. Key name is "history". Now he can play couple of previous 1.4M acquisitions if originally was this your example setting 100us/div. And quite sure you can see this one "walking" spike there. Also, depending if this other spike meetss trigger it may also trig it if it occurs next after trigger rearm.But if case is that it did not appear just in this screen refresh, in many cases it may appear in history buffer. In buffer, with this setting there is 38 last 1.4M acquisitions (if scope have done 38 acquisitions after last change in settings) (In this case it can use over 53M memory for this history buffer)Always when scope is running every single acquisition with current memory length is also pushed to wfm history buffer. After stop scope you can run this buffer forward and backward slow or fast or manually every single waveform there. There also can use full window zoom in and out, window zoom, cursors, measurements, FFT, just as for what ever wfm after stop. There can also dipslay only ADC raw sample dots or lines or Sinc intepolation independent of what was case in capture time.Just stop using stop or history key. And push < button and it play all wfms captured before stop and then > and forward or select acquisition order number what you want look or just scroll manually turning knob (also every wfm there have time stamp)

author: znroot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2017, 02:35:09 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on February 21, 2017, 02:06:40 pmThe example I've wrote show that Siglent or full-memory acquire is very similar if you know the scope. Of course you can zoom out, but the key point is how the data are processed, not a scope feature. SDS1000X "could" run 5 time faster than a scope with full-memory acquiring (you need to acquire the waveform, right?) and so if you do not use the zoom feature but pretend to see the spike with these settings (not talking about history!):-other can-Siglent can'tThis is mean without keeping in count history and any other data processing averaged in more than one acquisition time. At this point Siglent is not fully wrong because:-with these settings it is 5 times faster to show the waveform from acquisition to screen-if you use zoom feature and adjust the scope to 500us the scope will run "at the same speed" of othersSo it's just a different mode of acquiring signals and showing them.Quote from: rf-loop on February 21, 2017, 02:06:40 pmYes, history is useful in these cases but my example was using basic scope settings, not history. The scope has also history and this is another (good) thing. But it wasn't the object of my reply to analyze any other feature. My reply contains only consideration about pros and cons on siglent approach in a particular situation in which full acquisition memory make a difference in measurements.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2017, 04:55:07 pm
content: In mainstream yes.-----------------Here in this table can see also what is difference example between 14M and 1.4M (1ms/div and 100us/div) wfm/s speeds. Also amount of max availabe segments in sequence mode and amount of waveforms in waveform history buffer.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2017, 12:38:00 pm
content: Preparing my chart...Quote from: MrW0lf on February 20, 2017, 01:18:30 pmI agree. Of course, you and I are thinking on how things are done in a picoscope.My understanding on what is happening on the siglent sds1000x is:decoding is done on the portion of waveform memory displayed/zoomed on screen..this means that with no zoom you are decoding from the acquired data, not from undersampled data passed to the screen buffer. This is great, excellent!however, it was decided that when you zoom in the event table is adjusted so that only the events displayed inside the zoomed area are listed.this sounds like a contraddiction do me, two fundamentally different ways to do the same thing: decoding from waveform memory or decoding from screen memorySiglent should keep the event list the same. you zoom in and then select the event you want to center the zoom to. Even better, if as on the picoscope you could also show decoded data from past acquisitions (in this case history/segmented memory)Or maybe, still keep the event list the same but adjust the index so that list entry zero is the leftmost displayed in zoomed area (previous with negative index)it sounds silly just by writing it but hey, if they MUST do something different.. at least let it be something that doesn't cripple the functionalityAnother question: can the logic channels be used for serial decoding and triggering? what about the sds2000x? (BTW: can't find the topic)

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2017, 05:26:16 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on March 04, 2017, 12:38:00 pmAlso I hope Siglent rethink and develop it in some future FW.If turn zoom off, decode table have whole memory.I hope that also with zoom they keep full list and then some how show (example some indicator in table so that zoom window area can easy sdetect in table. But, this is too simply explanation. A detailed definition requires a much longer description.Quote from: JPortici on March 04, 2017, 12:38:00 pmSDS1000X = SDS2000X in this case, and in many other things functions are sameSerial trigger sources can be CH1, CH2 or D0 - D15Serial decoding, signals can come from CH1, CH2 or D0 - D15 (free mix, example Clock can be CH1, CS from D1, MOSI D2 and MISO CH2)

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2017, 07:30:08 pm
content: very good to hear. Since i'm in the market for a new bedroom-scope to be get until end of the month, i'm considering all optionsjudging by datasheets and manuals i already came out to the conclusion that besides sample rate and memory 1000x and 2000x were the same.. but 2000x come in 4 channels. wish they had a promotion with at least the decoders for free too.considering all options i am currently set on the new keysight (on ebay from scopemonth winners, hopefully) or the sds1000xeven though i can already see cases where i could need 3 or 4 analog channels, all costs considered it would be 2x the price, for sds2104x + decode or GDS2104E...2 channels + LA will cover 95% of my use casesre: wish they would change the decode too, is there somebody to contact? maybe, i say maybe, if enough people will gently ask..

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2017, 10:43:10 pm
content: @rf-loop: Does the masking function operate on the zoomed area, or on the unzoomed area?It matters. A lot. The reason it matters is that if you're looking for a waveform that does not fit the maskand want to see what surrounds it(especially on other channels), if it operates on the unzoomed area, then you'd (presumably) have to define the mask to cover the entire period of time of the capture.Other scopes don't have a problem here, because they'll capture parts of the waveform that aren't being displayed, but the Siglent doesn't operate that way.If the Siglent's masking function operates on the capture area then you won't be able to use it to detect a violation of the maskandbe able to see the surrounding waveform after the violation is captured.Unless, that is, they make it possible for the mask to cover only a subset of the displayed waveform. Then you'd set your timebase to show the part of the waveform to create the mask from (it's obvious that the mask should cover the trigger point), then create the mask, then set the timebase to reflect the capture length you're interested in, and then run the test. Note that in this case, the mask might well not be visible at all if you're capturing enough. Siglent would have to contend with certain problems at that point, such as the possibility that the mask's resolution is greater than the capture resolution, since we're talking about altering the timebase between mask definition time and capture time.So: how does the mask function intersect with the "what you see is all you get" approach that Siglent takes here?

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2017, 11:03:31 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on March 04, 2017, 05:26:16 pmIt would be very easy for them to do. The list display just shows you a subset of the captured list, for any nontrivial capture. They could set it up so that zooming or changing the timebase (when stopped, of course) causes the scope to change what the list view is showing such that the first item shown is the first decoded item shown on the waveform screen. Entries that precede that point are still in the list, and can be reached either by scrolling the list or scrolling the waveform view. The scope could place markers in the list indicating the boundaries that correspond to the edges of the waveform view, so that if you choose to view some other part of the list, you can always know where the waveform display boundaries are within that list.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2017, 12:30:49 am
content: Some little insight to the Mask.It does not operate in Zoom mode.Results are dependent on the timebase setting when you create a mask.There are X & Y adjustments that can be made.Violations can be set to Stop the scope or it can continuously run counting Fails, beeping OR not and digital output via rear Pass/Fail BNC.Ramblings:For a I2C stream that I had on hand it was possible to set a mask for a complete packet and violations were triggered with a different length packet. With a stream of different packets at regular intervals it was also possible to create a mask for the largest packet then which there were zero violations for the data stream.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2017, 01:12:48 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 05, 2017, 12:30:49 amCan you create your mask at a faster timebase and then set a slower timebase before beginning the test run? If so, what are the consequences of setting a sufficiently slower timebase that it forces a lower sampling rate?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2017, 04:04:09 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on March 05, 2017, 01:12:48 amNo.If the timebase is changed from the setting the mask it was made in, it lays the waveform in violation to the mask. The mask is specific to the timebase setting it was made in.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2017, 05:12:00 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 05, 2017, 04:04:09 amThen the Siglent's approach to buffer management is a major fail here, since it is impossible to see the waveform's surroundings upon a mask failure with the Siglent's approach. The other scopes score a major win over the Siglent for this.Since the Siglent's buffer management mechanism provides no significant advantages (previously, it had no significant disadvantages either), but now has a significant disadvantage, that means that the approach taken by other scopes is superior overall.Siglent could rectify this by allowing you to define your mask on the basis of the zoomed waveform and to perform the application of the mask against the zoomed portion during capture and test. But as of now, Siglent loses this contest between buffer management mechanisms. And that's quite a shame -- there's a lot to like about the Siglent.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2017, 05:51:18 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on March 05, 2017, 05:12:00 amThe buffer is not involved in Pass/Fail tests, it is done at full speed.See:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg925172/#msg925172

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2017, 08:17:50 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 05, 2017, 05:51:18 amThe buffer is involved in what is captured at the point the pass/fail test automatically stops the scope. Youcantell the scope to stop on a pass or fail, right? If not, then it's even worse than I thought.I'm using "buffer management mechanism" to refer to the mechanism that decides how much time to capture in the buffer. Siglent's is dirt simple: it captures the amount of time represented on the screen into the size of the buffer that one manually selects. Other oscilloscopes use different mechanisms. Whatever the term for what I'm referring to here (if there's some widely used term for it, I'd like to know what that is), the point is thatwhen the scope automatically stops as a result of a pass/fail violation, the only thing you get with the Siglent is what's on the screen, while what you get with other scopes is whatever's in the capture buffer, which is usually more than what's on the screen. That makes other scopes more useful for examining what went on near the failure point.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2017, 08:36:53 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on March 05, 2017, 08:17:50 amSee reply #175, asalreadystated the scope can be set to Stoporcontinue running the Pass/Fail tests.I've always thought Pass/Fail tests were production/quality control related but of course they can be used along with or instead of a comprehensive Trigger suite to find signal abnormalities so unlike you I believe Siglent's implementation of Pass/Fail is appropriate for production use. If there is desire to enhance it's functionality instead of using the Trigger suite available then we need call for some user/owner input on how it might be implemented better.Thanks for the discussion and as always constructive feedback is best for us to pass on to the engineers.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2017, 08:41:10 am
content: i have the manual here: scope stops, external trigger pulse and/or beep.Quoteyep. i think they tought pass/fail just as a mean to look at edges/eye diagrams. As you say, being able to define the mask only in the zoomed area should be possible and would solve this problemQuoteyep.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2017, 09:17:16 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on March 05, 2017, 08:41:10 amI have the scope here: Scope can be configured to Stop or not, Pass/Fail BNC signal out (not Ext Trig) and Beep or not.EditAnd count violations.Image shows a previous mask BUT the test is not running but still shows violations.Using the Mask Setting softkey another menu is accessed and in which a single command is made to create a new mask. The second page of the mask menu shown has the beeper on and off plus Stop or not setting.It is very quick and simple to use.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2017, 01:35:30 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 05, 2017, 08:36:53 amSo you did!QuoteUnless a trigger suite includes a mask capability, it's not "complete", really. That's because a mask gives you the capability of implementing what amounts to arbitrary trigger conditions, which is very powerful.QuoteMy pleasure. Like I said, there's a lot to like about the Siglent, and I do like the fact that there's no guesswork as to how much time is captured with Siglent's implementation. But it does have this shortcoming. As I mentioned, that can be easily addressed by making it possible to define the mask with the zoomed portion of the zoom view. The rate at which tests could be performed would then be determined by the frequency that the trigger fires and how much later the zoom window was relative to the trigger point at the time the mask was defined (because that delta determines how long the scope has to wait after the trigger fires before it can perform the mask test).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2017, 02:49:26 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 05, 2017, 08:36:53 amDefinitely no. A trigger system works as a sliding window and catches all anomalies with 100% certainty. A pass/fail system no matter how fast it is will never achieve that level of certainty (you can prove this by math). Also when using pass/fail in a production test setup you have to control the trigger moment and signal going into the scope so you test what you need to test. What I find missing in typical pass/fail testing is the use of long (multi megapoint) records. If a long record is allowed you could check a circuit with (for example) a sweeped sine wave to check it's frequency characteristic including phase in one go.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 02:23:12 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on March 05, 2017, 05:12:00 amI have another question about Siglent's memory handling here.When you have the window showing a large range (i.e, the bit you want to actually capture), if multiple trigger events happen within that window, will the scope capture all of them? Or does it presume one trigger event per window range?If the latter, then the usability of the memory mechanism is potentially more limited than that of a "normal" implementation, since it means that you can't simultaneously have a large capture and a fast update rate. A simultaneous large capture and fast update rate is possible to implement if the trigger mechanism just records pointers into the capture memory. You can get what amounts to "segments" that way.For instance, suppose my window covers 1 millisecond worth of time, but my trigger event happens every 10 microseconds. A scope that can capture 100K wfm/s could keep up with the trigger event rate, but a naive implementation would insist on capturing 1K wfm/s due to the window size and assumption that only one trigger event can be recorded within the window. Alternatively, it might waste a bunch of memory by storing what amounts to overlapping samples, thus limiting the number of captured segments.A good implementation would, I should think, normally perform a continuous capture and have the trigger mechanism note where within the capture the trigger events can be found. The display subsystem could then just grab a window's worth of data around the trigger point and display it. If the display subsystem is too slow to keep up with the trigger events, it can skip forward to the latest trigger point for which a full window's worth of data is available in the buffer, and display that, then lather, rinse, repeat. But if one then stops the scope, all of the trigger events would be available and one could then review it either as "segments" or as a continuous stream.The downside of that model is when a trigger event fails to materialize within the remaining amount of memory after the previous capture -- you'd be forced to start discarding the earliest part of the buffer, which has trigger events, in order to continue to capture data which might have none. Which is why you also want an explicit segmented capture mode. The way I'd do this would be to perform continuous, contiguous streaming as long as trigger events happen more often than the segment width, but once the distance from the last sample to the last trigger event exceeds 1.5 segment widths, the scope would treat the segment's width worth of memory immediately preceding the last sample as a circular buffer, and continue capture into that until half a segment's width of captures have been gathered after the trigger point, at which point capture mechanism would continue the capture in the memory starting immediately after the end of that last captured segment. This whole approach might have some fatal flaws (I don't spot any off the top of my head, but the presumption in this approach is that you can arbitrarily change the target address of the capture system between the prior sampling operation and the next, something that might prove difficult to achieve when sample rates are happening at CPU clock speeds or greater -- it would definitely require ASIC hardware to pull it off).Oh, and apologies if any of the above looks incoherent. I'm operating on rather little sleep.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 07:22:47 am
content: A lot of what you seek is in the first 2 pages of this thread in the tables prepared by rf_loop.Although it's somewhat academic with a new version of these models, the X-E with more processing power not far away.Waveform update rates are to rise ~50% and these new models will need to examined further for more info on memory use and allocation.That might lead this discussion towards the HW in the SDS2kX series which has twice the update rate of the SDS1kX and 10x the memory.The below thread was started when the V2 firmware was released that the SDS1kX and at that time SDS2k shared and of course the 2k has been further upgraded to SDS2kX.A good place to pick up on this thread is here where the first tables start and member Performa01 takes the stand with his in-depth findings.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000-new-v2-firmware/msg810344/#msg810344

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 09:12:25 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on March 19, 2017, 02:23:12 amIf you go to sleep now, you perhaps can meet this dream miracle oscilloscope.Siglents memory handling?Is it better to ask first how basic digital oscilloscopes works in principle.Perhaps somewhere is room for start new topic where can handle common questions about basic principles how things work. This is not Siglent question.Is it so that first we need handle:what is "trigger"what is "capture"Why we need name Siglent here. I can answer. Name Siglent is here for nonsense.This is why I think this trivia is best to start in its own thread - What is oscilloscope and how it works.But here is simple answer: After triggered it capture and during this period running capture not interrupted what ever happen in trigger system. It continue to capture memory (at this time you can think trigger system is "blind") end and after then, bit later, it can trigger again.In old analog oscilloscope:waiting trig -Trig - visible sweep from left to right with selected speed - blind return -waiting trig...........Underlined time: you can think, whole trigger is just sleeping.There is now one main difference in (today) digital scope usually but no need go now to details.Siglent trigger do not differ from common principle.But then as sidenote:It can easy understand why these and many other things are so difficult to imagine and understand. Thanks for example this kind of material what Keysight do not even shame to publish @2016https://community.keysight.com/community/keysight-blogs/oscilloscopes/blog/2016/09/01/understanding-oscilloscope-trigger-system-basics-why-you-should-careStill in year 2016 even Keyshit teach:QuotePity.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 10:40:08 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on March 19, 2017, 09:12:25 amWell, I just woke up and, sadly, no, I didn't meet it.QuoteNo. We need Siglent's name here because how one configures what the Siglent 1000X and 2000X scopes capture differs from other scopes, andthat has implications.QuoteOK, let's be clear here. By "capture", I mean that the scope records samples produced by the ADC into memory.Clearly, the trigger event doesn'tstartcapture, because you can see parts of the waveform on the screen that preceded the trigger event. So the capture mechanism was obviously operating before the trigger fired.QuoteRight. So again, going back to the Siglent,does the Siglent wait until the end of the window before re-arming the trigger?It's important, because unlike most other scopes, what it captures isonlywhat is in the display window. If the Siglent waits until the end of the window before rearming the trigger, then that means thatother scopes can achieve a higher waveform rate for a given capture size than the Siglent can.Let's take that 1 millisecond window size again. On the Siglent, that represents the size of the capture. If the Siglent waits until the end of the window to rearm the trigger, then that means the Siglent can, with a capture size of 1ms, capture at most 1k waveforms/sec. On other scopes, the size of the capture exceeds the size of the window (potentially by quite a lot). You could, for instance, set up a window size of 100us, and get a capture rate of 10k waveforms/secwhile capturing 1ms worth of data for each. That's precisely because there is nothing at all thatdemandsthat the scope wait until the end of the buffer before rearming the trigger.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 10:59:06 am
content: Please show me scope what stop acguisition and start new one before used acquisition length is reached if there exist something what match trigger settings. If I meet this kind of scope I will send it for repair.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 12:00:12 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on March 19, 2017, 10:59:06 amHmm....I thought my Rigol did that, but then I went and looked and sure enough, it also waits for the end of the capture buffer before allowing another trigger!Why in theworlddo scopes do this? What possible advantage can there be for it???

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 01:27:24 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on March 19, 2017, 12:00:12 pmIs it better to ask: Why in the world oscilloscope need work different?But some times we need example fast segmented memory acquisition but even there once trigged it do one segment length acquisition and do not interrupt it if during this exist new trig.If not need long memory, why use long memory. Some times even 10 points memory length is enough. (or 14 sample points what is minimum with Siglent SDS1kX and 2kX)

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 03:16:32 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on March 19, 2017, 01:27:24 pmSeriously? The answer is that the oscilloscope is (or should be) a general purpose waveform acquisition and display instrument. A high trigger rate with a small buffer is not as useful as the same trigger rate with a larger buffer, because the latter allows you to stop the scope and examine much more of the surroundings than does the former, and a high trigger rate, especially when combined with a good persistence display, allows you to see glitches more readily. The existing approach apparently forces you to choose between seeing glitches more readily versus deep capture, and that is obviously not necessary.QuoteWho said anything aboutinterruptingthe capture? You're limiting your thinking to how the scope currently works, but how it currently works seems to impose artificial limitations that don'thaveto be there. Or, at least, I don't see any reason they have to be there. That's why I asked what I did: why does the trigger ratehaveto be limited by the capture size? What could possibly be gained by imposing such a limitation?QuoteYeah, but we're not talking about the case where you don't want (or don't care about) long memory. We're talking about the case where youdowant long memory. Why do youhaveto give up trigger/capture rate in order to get that?If I set up my window to display 100us and my buffer is large enough to capture 1ms worth of data, whymustmy trigger detection rate be limited to 1k trigger events per second, instead of 10k trigger events per second? Or even more, for that matter Nothing says that the trigger rate need be limited by the window size, either. If I'm displaying a 100KHz sine wave, why can't my trigger fire at a rate of 100KHz if the trigger system itself is capable of keeping up with that?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 03:57:09 pm
content: That is true. After all you only need to get the full acquisition record after the last trigger. There are more 'if when how why & whats' to it (math and decoding for example) but the basic idea is that you can use the displayed width as the driving factor of the trigger rate instead of the acquisition length to maximise the waveforms/s rate.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 06:03:33 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on March 19, 2017, 03:16:32 pmIf simplify this thinking and set as it is in principle in analog scope.Let's think trigger position is beginning of display, left border and starting of capture memory is same.Lets think that display width is this 100us and sample rate is 1GSa/s. This means that this displayed part on capture memory length is 100000 samples. 100k* Lets also think that whole capture memory length in use is 1ms. This means acg. memory total length is 1000000 samples. 1M. (900k after display border.)*(this can not be Siglent because next capture can do after display right border is reached and after trigger is rearmed)Now think it trig and start capturing to memory and then arrive to position where is captured first 100us. Now trigger circuit find there exist something in signal what meets user defined trigger rules. What you want now do.Reject the trigger and continue capturing to end of defined memory and after then start waiting signal meets trigger settings and trig new capture.Or, do you want that after this 100us position if trigger find new trig event it start new capture from beginning and do not use rest of capture memory, what if it happen in this turn at 150us position from start and next time 200us position and next turn 107us and it vary so that every turn is different. Or do it keep some fixed length of capture memory or what?. Or do it just stop fill memory at display border and wait next trig. In this last case capture length is fixed 100k.Remember that what ever you overlay stack on the screen, every single waveform trigger time position need very precise adjust to same as previous trigger position. Using much smaller time interval what is sampling interval. This is why there is fine interpolation.But first how you want do with these triggers and capturing in real world.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 12:26:44 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on March 19, 2017, 06:03:33 pmYou could do that, but a DSO is not actually an analog scope -- it is capable of so much more -- so to limit the DSO to the behavior of an analog scope is to artificially limit the capability of the device.QuoteNope. No need to reject the trigger.QuoteYou don't start a new capture (more precisely, you don't start writing to the beginning of the buffer again). You record the location of where in the buffer the trigger fired, and you keep recording samples to memory. Meanwhile, you have a decimation processor that goes to the previously recorded trigger points and does the proper sample combining starting at those points to store into the histogram buffer.You have the display processor display the contents of the histogram buffer as quickly as it can, during which it'll decrement the values it finds in the histogram buffer (which is sized the same as the waveform display area in terms of pixels). The acquisition system continues to acquire data during this period of time, and continues to record the locations of trigger events in the buffer.When the display processor finishes showing the waveform, it repeats its display of the histogram buffer, over and over.It should be obvious that the display processor operates in parallel with the acquisition system, as does the decimation processing.QuoteIf we're talking about the scope operating in "normal" trigger mode, then it would obviously continue to capture in the other buffer (this would be a double buffered setup, precisely so that acquisition can continue while preserving the contents of the prior capture) after filling the current acquisition buffer up to the point that precedes the trigger point by 500us, or however much precedes the trigger point, whichever is shorter. Remember that the buffer is circular and doubled. Why 500us? to put the trigger point precisely in the center of the capture.If the scope is operating in "auto" trigger mode then the "auto" trigger mechanism will insert periodic fake triggers into the system, which the downstream processing can treat as normal triggers.Once the scope is stopped, the scope can show the locations of all the trigger events in the capture, if there are any aside from the "current" trigger event (about which the scope would attempt to center the capture).QuoteOf course. See above. It's a rough idea, but hopefully I'm describing the idea well enough.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2017, 06:17:01 am
content: I take this here because for more polite I do not want smudge royal R&S thread for this.Quote from: EEVblog on April 04, 2017, 09:57:23 am1. I told, using my whole experience and knowledge, They are "around same ballpark" and I stay ground under my legs behind this until real evidence about anything else.Of course this answer also include knowledge how different these scopes are - just in very different performance class and in very different price class. There is not from me ANY even single doubt that R&S is higher class scope and this was not reason. There was also not reason to "compete" with R&S using just Siglent. Whole reason was that I can see there images where was enormous noise visible on the R&S screen in first phase and knowing R&S it feels very strange. Also there was shown that there was used quite good signal generator. After then I want show that even simple and cheap Siglent with even Siglent function generator have lot of less noise - so there must be something wrong.After then, later, I realize that this some signal image enormous noise was from really noisy signal generator. (even in case there was used 60dB attenuation. (Also I use - 60dB attenuator).After then I can see there was scope base noise images without signal.There was averaging and so on but one trace what show quite low noise also without any trics, exept that trace was dimmed so that peak values nearly invisible and eye may think this more clearly visible trace was including peak values. But after change image Gamma It was clear that peaks was just nearly hidden if look fast this image. There was R&S measurements on but very very pity, only peak (900uV)After then Dave throwing this a simple answer."Noise comparisons have to use the same analog bandwidth"No. This is for him who have low experience and unable to evaluate and calculate the aid with the assessment.How much BW itself affect. And here we talk mostly random noise.Everyone who do anything with signals know this: 10 log (BW1/BW2)If compare 100MHz and 1000MHz BW random noise there is around 10dB difference.Between 100MHz and 300MHz there is around 4.8dB difference. (if this and that and those things are same and so on)But in practice, (I do not say just this R&S) many times 100MHz scope analog BW is well over 150MHz, in this case around 180MHz. Bit I doubt that R&S BW is not 3 times more. Perhaps 2 - 2.5x.If it is 2.5x then 4dB and if 2 then 3dBNow, R&S 900uV peak. Siglent ~600uV. Difference around 3.5dB. (peaks. So do not put too much weight for this!)Siglent RMS we know. Roughly around 64uV mean with 10uV SD."same memory depth, same sample rate, and same update rate"Of course, when we talk random "white noise" peak values.This is why in my example there is RMS and not only peak.But if peak alone.Update rate do not mean. Measurements are made from single acquisition data, not from screen pixels.Visual trace fatness may rise with fast update rate. But, when intensity gradation works well, visually it also give image about noise distribution (situation here is terrible if not intensity gradation). Both scopes show it clearly. And if have experience it can very easy say they are Roughly around same ball park. Also in both can see not only only one or two highest peaks. If look carefully these images can get good image about noise distribution.On Siglent screen width there is 280000 samples. Every frame have visible not only single shot but around 60 acquisitions so around 16.8 Msamples mapped and visible on the screen. So there is well enough also for peaks.I do not know how much data there is in R&S screen. But I doubt that not so much more, more I think less.My estimate was that this do not make big difference and not prevent me with my experience to make decision "Roughly around same ballpark"For make more comparative measurements it is very important to use noise RMS.(This is why I also show it there)For visual image compare need be really careful if acquisition and collected data is not enough comparable.If we use peak values, it need think bit more deeply how comparable measurements are if they do not have same amount of data. Samplerate rise amount of data but.... But it need note that also this is not so trivial how it affect. Higher samplerate generated more data may even have adverse effect. If we have 1MHz BW and samplerate say example 10MSa/s and we collect 10M ssample data. Then we use 10Gsa/s for this 1MHz BW. And we take sequential 10Msample. Now we have same amount of data. But from 1000 times less time gap. Probability for get highest peaks is less! (note Samplefrequency/BW)Of course also need take to account that random white noise is only part of truth in practice.Also need take care that if scope is example 500MHz it is well possible that without selectable BW rejection aand also in some scopes most sensitive vertical setting is perhaps not with full resolution (this may rise or hide some noise) there still may be less BW for most sensitive V/div settings. In Siglent SDS1kX 100MHz even 500uV/dif is full resolution and full BW.

author: sp2iqw
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 11:45:07 pm
content: Before I bought Siglent SDS1102X oscilloscope, I analyzed what I would get for the money.When I turned on and performed few sessions of measurements I came across unpleasant surprises.I am almost inclined to return the oscilloscope. I suppose the cause is not the malfunction of this particular unit, but a design error, or rather firmware.Check short report:https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByQgomgYIGXpY1pjSFhUN0hRMUUWill somebody take me away from this step?Michal

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 12:26:00 am
content: Quote from: sp2iqw on April 08, 2017, 11:45:07 pmNowhere do I see you mention the firmware # your unit has installed, the latest 13R5 is available here:http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SDS1000X%20_V1.1.1.2.13R5.rarI have had a look at your pdf and I see a possible explanation for some of the things you see, that being mostly 1Mtermination. Did you try 50?The only other comment I can add is that memory depth settings seem low, have you tried to adjust them to the max for each timebase setting ? Did you notice now the memory depth has halved when you enable the second channel ?......less data points = less accurate waveform reconstruction.Another thing I ask; is this your first DPO as there is much more waveform info placed on the display for you to interpret.....don't want it....use Dot mode.For the LAN connection to work you must also have the correct version of MS .NET framework installed.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 11:36:31 am
content: Quote from: sp2iqw on April 08, 2017, 11:45:07 pmI have not now enough time to analyze your "findings".But one first note.Your signal have quite fast edge.Now when you turn 2 channels on, maximum samplerate is 500MSa/s.It means there is one sample every 2ns.As can see your image where is 2ns/div with 1GSa/s (one channel on) and then right side image 500MSa/s (2 channel on) it is natural that there is high aliasing. In this case aliasing can see as "corners wobbling". This is NOT at all related to manufacturer. it is pure math and physics. Even Siglent can not break base fundamentals. It is well known that this scope BW is highly over 100MHz. If it is rehjected to 100MHz and after then BW shape drops steep you can not see this effect, because in this case ADC can not see this fast (rising) edge, if edge rise is limited to over 3ns you can see very small amount of corners aliasing. (Alisiang components are this waveform harmonics)Now situation change if you shut off Sin(x)/x interpolation and also do not use linear interpolation. Just use dots. Now you can see corners do not "wobble". But, you see more or less dots but perhaps not coninuous line because it have limited wfm/s speed. Turning example 1s persistence may help more nice visibility.But overall this signal breaks oscilloscope specification (rise time).If you take oscilloscope what analog front end before ADC is not so wide you can not see this effect because front end limits signal risetime. Of course if there is more fast samplerate this effect also disappear. As can see when you use 1GSa/s.It is very important to know signals fundamentals and also oscilloscopes fundamentals.Then you tell it goes to "roll mode". Yes, it is default. But pushing one button you can go to normal sweep mode. And doing trigger setup you can adjust more things. Example if you set 500ms/div and NOT roll mode. You get 7 second long capture but of course samplerate is only 2MSa/s. (so in practice max sinewave frequency around or under 700kHz and otheer waveforms so that its harmonics stay (enough) below Nyquist frequency (sample frequency / 2).And also it need note that in this case you need wait before see anything on the screen (of course).External trigger do not at all have same trigger performance than main channels. EXT trigger use analog side pathway trigger system what have been very normal in digital oscilloscopes also in main channels.Siglent main channels use full digital side trigger system. But EXT trigger do not. And it can see - lot of more time jitter and not perfect signal fine adjustment to trigger time position. Main channels digital trigger system outperforms most old digital scopes conventional trigger method just hands down.Also specifications tell that EXT trigger performance is highly reduced. <100ps trigger jitter is specified only for CH1 and CH2. It reads clearly in data sheet.Here some examples and about basic fundamentals you can find useful readings from many sources, also from Keysight, Tektronix and R&S application notes etc.Here only linear interpolation and dots. Sin(x)/x make lot of more bad things when we go too near f Nyquist.It is normal that experienced user also know that Sinc interpolation is not always best for not sinetype signals.Sine, Linear, Dots. Persistence on. In this image input signaltriseis adjusted so that there is ~1.25 sample fortrise(10%-90%)Note: As can see, using linear interpolation and persistence there can estimate also true risetime. (red marks) (as long as oscilloscope analog BW do not reject risetime.)One "problem" specially for unexperienced (I do not mean length of experience but quality of experience) users in example this Siglent model is that analog front end frequency bandwidth is bit too wide, specially if think lower than 1GSa/s samperates in use. Avoid problems with this, need know how to do. But, peoples want "high Bandwidth..."Here example one individual SDS1102XAs can see f Nyquist (500MSa/s) is not attenuated even 6dB. It is clear that fast risetime to input leads lot of aliasing and in this case one special form of aliasing: "corners wobbling".Know your equipment for better measurements is rule number one.

author: sp2iqw
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 07:03:07 pm
content: Thank you for both replies.I have missed some information. The firmware is the most current 1.12.13R5, FPGA Version 16.8.2, HW Version 3-3. The PC runs Win XP SP3, Intel Z77A MB/i3 CPU, 8GB RAM, SSD. Obviously MS.Net is installed. Otherwise the LAN connection will no function. The weak point is OS but it has nothing common with stand-alone oscilloscope operation.Yes, I have tried the input impedance of 50ohm. That "jitter" is seen on the waveform "corners" with the second channel turned on with 50ohm internal termination. In fact it is not a jitter but the way a signal is processed inside SDS1102X with only A/D converter.As per memory depth. With 1Gs/s and 10ns/div one ADC can take only 140 samples per window so we have either 140 or 70 per channel respectively for 1 and 2 channels.The additional information I have uploaded here:https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByQgomgYIGXpWEZtQ1N0aG1aNjAI do not want to break the physics. I know that tested signals (AHC CMOS logic gates) edges exceeds the SDS1102X capability so I do not expect more that can be sampled and displayed after postprocessing.Any physics limits doesn't explain multiply edges effects which sometimes occurs during normal observation (problem #4 of my previous report). With known and trusted signals I know where I am. But in real terms, when I will see similar display on unknown signal, what to do?, how to interpret a signal?...Michal

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 10:29:52 pm
content: About your previous "case 4"I have tested it with quite same settings you have done.What I do not know are your signals. What they are exactly and how they are connected and so on.Here in attached image.Signals.10MHz square CH1 as seen its rising edge.Trigger source Ext800mVp-p pure sine.Both signals have same frequency reference, Datum Rubidium oscillator.Persistence infinite and follow time 3 hours. No any single trigger fails. Also when I adjust trigger level it works rock solid. But my signal are also rock solid and signals to oscilloscope so that they stay clean. (btw, if you use slow scope, it perhaps just do not see these jumps due to extremely high blind time. Turn Siglent for slow acquisition mode then it works like conventional slow DSO.This 5ns jumping in your image do not come from oscilloscope trigger system (Exept if your scope is broken. And sorry but I do not believe this.)Problem is perhaps outside of scope, perhaps somehow in your signals.----Then you talk about "smoothing" and that this have some problem. What problem. You still think these corners wobbling is problem in scope. No, they are not. It is just pure math. It works just normally what I can see in your images with this kind of signal what have too high frequency components for this sample speed.You can inspect it more. Let scope run some time with this 10MHz signal, example over ten seconds using 2ns or 5ns/div. Then stop scope. Go to History. There is now 80k last waveforms in waveform history buffer memory. Select playback interval time example 300ms. Then playback. Look carefully what happen there in signal corners. Change Sin(x)/x off and on. Also playback with dots only.10MHz square to CH1 and 10MHz 800Vp-p sine (both signals have same Datum Rb as reference clock) to Ext trigger input. Infinite persistence and 3 hour continuous run. As can see no any single jump.And then in your next document. You have used old GDS-820C. Screen show that two channels and one channel on, both have 2.5GSa/s. Of course you do not see difference - in practice and in theory.But, try this "Equal time" mode with GW so that signal is not fully repetitive. THis GW is NOT real time oscilloscope at all with this setting.This GW scope real time samplerate is max 100MSa/s (I do not know how it is if 1 or 2 channel in use). When you use it in repetitive mode it need sample same signal many many times before it have collected amount of samples what are "Equal" with 2.5Gsa/s. Response for signal changes is very very slow. But, with repetitive sampling mode (aka Equal time mode) there is one advantage. (If signal is continuous) It can solve fast edges without aliasing. (but only if signal is repetitive)With enough fast real time scope you can do (nearly) same using dots mode because there is not interpolation between samples. But because fast wfm/s update rate in can plot so much dots that it looks nearly like continuous line. Slow scope can not do it. With 5ns/div and one channel use and dots mode this Siglent model can do over 35000 wfm/s. TFT refresh speed is roughly around 25 times/s. So every single screen may have in this case 1400 waveforms stacked overlay on the screen. This is why dots density is still high. But it do not produce corners wobbling due to aliasing.If I take my very old HP 100MHz scope what have 10MSa/s samplerate with same kind of signal, it can produce this same when I wait enough time.Fast and ultra fast (only analog front end risetime is limit) risetime measurement without aliasing can do even with one sample in second. If have enough time to wait result.SDS1000X as many other scopes today are real time scopes and many do not have repetitive mode (Equal time mode) at all anymore. This kind of scope, if it is fast enough and if signal trigger frequency is enough high (in your case 10MHz) can do nearly same when turn Sinc off and use dots mode and iif need also persistence on. Because there is no sync between scope sampling clock and signal frequency, sampling is random time and it produce mostly quite nice trace.In my image can clearly see that there is some small amount of trigger jitter. Ext trigger is conventional analog-comparator type trigger. (what most DSO's have used but more and more modern DPO's not)Main channels trigger system in SDS1000X is very different and lot of more accurate. It is not made as "old school" DSO trigger. (just like this Ext trig and just what is also in all channels in this your GW).Main channels trigger in SDS1000X is fully digital side trigger system with much more accurate timing and less trigger jitter (100ps max).It is good practice to first study and after then thing what is the cause and what is effect - causality. If do not know enough how things works how can claim they work wrong.This is one you can read carefully.http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/wp_interpolation_102203.pdfRead it enough times for fully understanding every word.After then come and justify that SDS1kX works wrongly in this your example case - if you still think so.

author: zorromen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 06:36:47 pm
content: Hello, SDS1102x was updated as it should be on 1.1.2.13R5, I stitched it twice, before it was 1.1.2.6, and everything worked there that I need, I work in conjunction with the SDG2042x generator and manage them through VISA commands. So on the new firmware the phase detection team ("MEAD?" And "MEAD? PHA") stopped working, although everything worked before the firmware, or I'm stupid or problem firmware, as other teams are working off. The question may be to return to the old firmware or it will destroy the oscilloscope?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 04:28:00 am
content: New FWV1.1.1.2.151.9 MbChangelog1. Increase font size for Measurement2. Optimize self calibration for Channels3. Decode can be enabled while timebase bigger than 20ms/div4. Fixed some bug in decode function.

author: vpv
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 03:47:55 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on April 15, 2017, 04:28:00 amHello!Once I made this update and my first channel disappeared.I did Self calibration, but first channel could not be seen again.Restart oscilloscope - first channel not visible again.I did the second time Self calibration and finally first channel appeared! But a second channel was much more stable than the first channel.Then I made a third time Self calibration and now everything is fine.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 08:35:06 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on April 15, 2017, 04:28:00 amHi @tautech,Sounds like great news! Does that fix the decoder bug? Any idea at what sweep does it shut down the decoder now?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 08:41:05 pm
content: Quote from: vpv on April 15, 2017, 03:47:55 pmThanks.You're the first to have reported the outcome of the update.....interesting, I've got an X+ (MSO) unit here and I'll check for similar unexpected results. Good to know all ended well.BTW, did you read the update instructions and comply exactly with them ?Very important!It need to update twice to update the machine from 1.1.1.2.6(or below this version) to 1.1.1.2.13R3(or above).The first time is from 1.1.1.2.6 to 1.1.1.2.13R3,the second time is from 1.1.1.2.13R3 to 1.1.1.2.13R3 itself.Very important!Because 1.1.1.2.15 optimized self calibration for Channels, it need to do self calibration once if the machine is updated from 1.1.1.2.13R5(or below) to 1.1.1.2.15(or above).Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on April 15, 2017, 08:35:06 pmNot yet checked George, maybe vpv can look at what timebase setting can be done in Decode mode before it drops the Decode UI.It had to do with Roll mode settings and while in Decode at slow timebase settings it should not enter Roll mode.

author: vpv
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2017, 08:41:58 am
content: Hello, tautech!I always update the same day to the new version comes out.Before this update (1.1.1.2.15), I've been using version 1.1.1.2.13R5 and I've complied with all the instructions that were given.I want to ask about another thing, it has no relation with the new update.When I measure the same signal, only when I move the beam up or down and the testimony of "Min=" vary. Is this normal?I attach the video:https://youtu.be/rJCneswlRDgNot shown in the video, but when I picked up the beam oscilloscope 4V, then Min = 0.00mVHello, George!I do not use now decoding function, but now I tried it and it worked to 20ms.When I switched to 50ms, decoding button went dark and when I pressed the button again, then I wrote the screen "Function can not be used."If that was the case before, then this problem is not fixed with the latest update(1.1.1.2.15).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2017, 09:12:15 am
content: Quote from: vpv on April 16, 2017, 08:41:58 amSo you look at the probe Cal with is ~3V @ 1KHz referenced to 0V.We see the Min above 0V and I ask if your scope had been fully warmed up and a Self Cal performed foraccuratemeasurements to be taken ?If you try the same again after scope warm, Self Cal and with the waveform at a larger amplitude I think the measurement will be more accurate. Please try this and report findings.Yes vpv, the Decode is as you describe and in the checks I did today seems much more stable. Packets were decoded without the need for the Decode trigger suite with only a need for the correct edge trigger to be selected.One more thing about the new FW, I can confirm that immediately after the update and reboot the Ch 1 trace is missing until the Self Cal is performed. It reappeared immediately on starting the Self Cal and remained there after.Unlike vpv I did not have to perform a # of Self Cals.

author: vpv
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2017, 10:55:01 am
content: My oscilloscope is working for more than two hours. I think that is already hot enoughand I did again Self calibration.The first two pictures are again from the built-in oscilloscope generator ( ~3V @ 1KHz).The next two pictures are from an external generator 6V / 20kHz.I do not have to account of whether the oscilloscope measured accurately or generator is accurate.The question is why the readings vary the position of the beam, whether it is up or down.Why should there be a change in the readings from the position of the beam?P.S. Sorry for my terrible English!

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2017, 01:59:38 pm
content: Quote from: vpv on April 16, 2017, 08:41:58 amHi vpv, and thank you very much!So if this -which is so clearly stated- simply isn't true "3. Decode can be enabled while timebase bigger than 20ms/div" why would "4. Fixed some bug in decode function" such a loosely worded statement be?Well done Siglent, well done.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2017, 02:07:19 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on April 16, 2017, 09:12:15 amYes @tatutech all is fine and dandy except that 1) this has nothing to do with the decoder bug and 2) you surely only checked again @9600 baud and 3) vpv's checks show that what you said WRT the max decoder sweep speed is not true.Great!

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2017, 02:12:52 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 05, 2016, 06:43:48 amThis seems complete bullshit! Why does Siglent come up with such a confusing process in the first place?Why can't they make a single pass FW update?Even if they can't make a single pass FW update, why don't use a different version for the intermediate FW update and the final FW update? At least, that would make sense!Please pass this on to Siglent Engineering, and ask them if they think it makes sense?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2017, 08:10:49 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on April 16, 2017, 02:07:19 pmI only have one source of protocols to check FW improvements with George, sorry.What I said WRT max speed is only what what was stated in the Changelog:It states:3. Decode can be enabled while timebase bigger than 20ms/divbut it is NOT the case. I do not know why this has been stated but not enabled as I have been told the engineers were working on this issue.For this to happen the Roll mode needs be disabled when in Decode mode.vpv, I will look more into your issue, I do not doubt your measurements or the accuracy of the signals, yes they are not the issue. I did ask if you could repeat the All Measure with a larger displayed waveform, say 500mV/div.When I have some time I will check a unit I have here.Quote from: pascal_sweden on April 16, 2017, 02:12:52 pmIt makes perfect sense to me even if you don't understand it.A few posts back rf-loop said: do not ask why, just follow the instructions (or similar).We do not need to know how a tool is made only how to use it.When an update is unpacked from the rar download there are clear instructions how to run the update, the only confusion comes from those not keeping up to date with the new FW. If you do, the double update is only needed to be run once.In the past some FW packages have contained a cfg file to run before an update.....this is more confusing for users, it is much simpler to run an update twice to enable improvements the engineers have added.I will guess that all units that did need the double update have been long sold, those that I had were sold last year.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2017, 08:54:48 pm
content: Quote from: vpv on April 16, 2017, 10:55:01 am(with cold scope).....Yes there seems some small bug in All Measure Min after a quick check. If you select only Min and/or others from the the Measure menu then values measured are within the accuracy specs of the scope.Measurements are always more accurate when the displayed waveform is large on the display.

author: vpv
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2017, 09:20:05 pm
content: tautech, you're right!I am only surprised, why there are different values of measurements at different position of the beam on the screen.In this case I do not care whether the measurement is true, and why there is a change in a different position of the beam on the screen.

author: zorromen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 09:51:44 am
content: It is interesting to do in future firmware so that you can change the color of the signals of channels 1 and 2, green for example, since the violet does not look very interesting.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 09:31:17 pm
content: Quote from: zorromen on April 20, 2017, 09:51:44 amSimilar is a suggestion I've recently forwarded to engineers: to make trace colours user definable.

author: zorromen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 08:03:30 pm
content: What maximum voltage on the probe 1:1 withstands the oscilloscope at 1mv / div? The body is written with 400 Vpk, is it at any sensitivity and at the probe 1:1 or 1:10?The User Manual shows a certain Quick-Cal mode. I do not have it, it's the latest firmware.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 08:30:57 pm
content: Quote from: zorromen on April 23, 2017, 08:03:30 pmTo subject any scope to high voltages at low V/div settings qualifies as gross misuse of a scope.Always use probes @ 10:1 settings to give additional safety against overloading inputs.Use 1:1onlyon occasions where higher sensitivity is required.Quote1:1 or direct BNC cable connection@ 1Minput settings only.50inputs must be restricted to 5V maxQuoteNo it is not present in 1.1.1.2.15 FW.Quick Cal is available in SDS2000 and 2000X models and one can only imagine that mention of it in the manual is for future inclusion of it but AFAIK accuracy drift of these units is not such a problem to need this feature enabled.

author: zorromen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 09:01:26 pm
content: It does not matter which maximum voltages are acceptable for different sensitivities. You can apply 300 Vpk to the BNC cable connection and the oscilloscope will stand, or not and on what sensitivity it will not survive? Or at 1:10 you can measure up to 4000Vpk? Where it all is written, how you wrote this gross violation of the region, which area, I do not understand. The instruction does not give a complete answer to this question.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2017, 09:48:01 pm
content: Quote from: zorromen on April 23, 2017, 09:01:26 pmThere is no mention of operational conditions that aren't survivable but from my days using analogue scopes one always took carenotto apply a voltage that would take the displayed waveform beyond the limits of the display.DSO's are very different in this respect.The maximum voltages that can be applied are the sum of the probe and input capabilities.QuoteThe datasheet and manual give the maximums and condition that apply.The leaflet that comes with each probe give the specifications for 1:1 and 10:1 operation. IIRC 650V DC is the max @ 10:1 BUT this voltage diminishes with frequency as outlined in the frequency derating graph.If you intend to connect to elevated voltages of some frequency I suggest you get 100:1 or 1000:1 probes to retain user and scope safety.If the probe attenuation is sufficient to keep the DSO input voltages below the maximum input voltage then you can measure most anything.Can I ask what you intend to measure that the maximums are of concern ?

author: zorromen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 07:07:42 am
content: I'm asking the question more specifically, it is more understandable for me to operate with the voltage that came to the input of the oscilloscope itself, and no matter what the probe. For example, what voltage +/- DC can withstand an oscilloscope at 10V / Div, and 1 mV / Div? And no matter how they got there, maybe by accident, I should understand how reliable my oscilloscope is. So the question about the 50 Om input, as I understand the limitation of <5Vrms is determined by the heating of the 50 Om resistor itself?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 08:01:24 am
content: Quote from: zorromen on April 24, 2017, 07:07:42 amThe probealwaysmatters, it's division ratio sets what V the scope input will see.QuoteJust as reliable/robust as any other DSO.Consider that a 10:1 probe can not besafely usedat a voltage that will apply the max 400 input voltage then the only scenario that might apply more is a 1:1 probe and to do so exceeds the V rating at a 1:1 probe setting which is just 300V unlike 10:1 which is 600V and both derate with frequency. Study the probe leaflet.QuoteSimply yes.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2017, 01:28:41 pm
content: New FW that apparently adds slower timebases available when in Decode mode.Previously slower than 20ms/div enabled Roll mode and Decode mode was exited.AFAIK this was omitted from the last release although it was included in the changelog.Version 1.1.1.2.15R3http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SDS1000XXplusFirmware_Update_EN.rar

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2017, 04:39:29 am
content: Some findings with 15R3 FW.Decode works in Roll mode, screenshot below at 100ms/div.Only adjustment outside the Decode menus was to set a falling edge in the Trigger menu.Note the Trigger delay setting top left and correlation to the decode list.Custom max baud rate in UART is now 5M

author: tbe
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 08:18:52 pm
content: Hi,I bought an SDS1202X+ plus logic probe last year. HW version 3-3, installed FW was 1.12.6. It was unusable with a digital input as trigger source (very slow response to H/V controls, then crashed). As I was very busy at that time, I decided to wait for a FW update and used another scope.So I have just updated to 1.1.1.2.15R3, and the trigger problem is gone. However, the main reason for buying the SIGLENT was the possibility of using reference waveforms as source for the math operations. In the manual it says'The oscilloscope supports many math operations between analog channels and reference waveforms'and'Analog channels (CH1 and CH2) and reference waveforms (REFA and REFB) can be used as source A or source B'. But whenever I try to select REFA or REFB as source B while source A is CH1 or CH2, source A will immediately switch to REFA (and vice versa with source B = CH1/CH2). So I can only use either two analog channels or two reference waveforms as operators. No one else ran into this problem?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 10:29:34 pm
content: Quote from: tbe on May 05, 2017, 08:18:52 pmWelcome to the forum.I'll let the factory know of you problem and hope they can reply next week to you.

author: tbe
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 08:57:44 pm
content: Thanks. There's also a small error in the manual. Looks like copied from the SDS2000 manual and not changed from 4 to 2 memory locations. Page 112 of UM0101X-E02A:'The oscilloscope can save analog channel or math waveforms to one of four reference waveform locations in the oscilloscope. Then, a reference waveform can be displayed and compared against other waveforms. Four reference waveforms can be displayed at a time.'

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2017, 10:31:51 am
content: Quote from: tbe on May 06, 2017, 08:57:44 pmI quote the reply from tech support:Reference waveform keep 7k data point, but the Channel waveform have different data point at different time base.So, operate Ref waveform and Channel waveform in the Math function will lead to some issues.So, the description in the manual is wrong. We will not modify the math function.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2017, 12:23:36 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on May 08, 2017, 10:31:51 amWhat does this mean?"We will not modify the math function."Does that mean it should work ok as is, or the issue won't be addressed? Or something else?

author: tbe
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 08, 2017, 06:43:29 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on May 08, 2017, 10:31:51 amA reference waveform will of course be displayed with the time base setting that was used when it was stored, and consequently one would not change the time base when comparing it to the current channel waveform. Math functions applied or not does not make any difference.Even my good old FLUKE PM3394 from 1993 can use reference waveforms as sources for math operations. See 'MATH+ Users Manual' here:http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/mathplusumeng0200.pdfFor example the SUBTRACT function on page 2-8:'Either newly acquired traces or previously stored traces can be used as the sources for this process.'For me this is an essential feature to see and analyze changes in the decay function of pulse induction metal detectors in real time. The initial decay curve is a result of many parameters, parasitic capacitances, damping resistors, etc. This decay curve is stored as a reference waveform and then subtracted from the current channel. Metallic objects and also certain ground minerals have specific decay curves which will now clearly emerge from the zero signal trace line, exposing their actual decay function which would be impossible to see with the superimposed initial decay curve.

author: tbe
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 08, 2017, 08:17:34 pm
content: Just found out that once a reference waveform is displayed AND averaging (or ERES) is enabled for one channel, the refresh rate of the whole display drops to less than 2 Hz. In average mode, the respective channel also needs much longer to react to changes, independent on how many samples have been selected for averaging.Another observation in average mode (without any reference waveform displayed, usual fast display refresh): Increasing the number of samples from 4 to 32 gradually increases the averaging effect, i.e. lower noise and higher delay until an input signal change reaches the final value. But anything above 32 (64 to 1024 samples) makes no more difference.Averaging is also essential for the application I described above as the signals are usually buried in noise. If this and the math/ref issue can not be fixed, the scope is unusable for this.

author: cjm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 09:10:31 am
content: Has anyone had an issue with what seems to be a very high acceleration rate used for the rotary encoders on SDS1000X series? I find the vertical and horizontal controls to be very "jumpy" on my SDS1202X making it a frustrating exercise when trying to place a trace exactly where I want it on screen. The trace tends to move very slowly at first when turning the encoder knob and then take a sudden large jump, overshooting the location where I'm trying to place the trace. Then turning the knob too quickly slows down the movement again. Compared to other scopes, personally I’ve found this makes this scope not so efficient and convenient to use in practice. I’d be interested to know if anyone else has had this experience. I’d ask Siglent if they can fix this in firmware, if I thought it’s something also affecting other folks.P.S. I’ve seen this issue for firmware versions 13R5 and 15R3. I don’t know if previous firmware versions are any different.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 10:28:51 am
content: Quote from: cjm on May 11, 2017, 09:10:31 amYes, when trying to select custom baud rates with the knob, it's almost impossible.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 01:21:56 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on May 11, 2017, 10:28:51 amWhy you do not enter wanted speed using virtual keyboard. Just enter numbers what you want.Just select Baud "Custom" then Press "Custom" and push knob. After then you have virtual keyboard (same as in many other settings also, example in many trigger time settings eg hold off time, selecting amount of segments) Also if have X+ model function generator settings can set using this virtual keyboard. (Virtual Keyboard is not perfect, Siglent - I hope - later develop its ergonomy)

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 01:40:50 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on May 11, 2017, 01:21:56 pmHi rf-loop,Out of despair that's what I ended doing, because the acceleration rate code for that knob is broken.Cheers,

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 08:06:00 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on May 11, 2017, 01:40:50 pmYes, it is far away from ok. It need develop better.

author: cjm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2017, 10:27:59 am
content: Many thanks for your replies George and rf-loop. I've sent Siglent an email, copied below, asking if they can look into the issue. Hopefully we'll hear back from them on the forum here.Quote

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2017, 11:18:51 am
content: That's a very polite letter you've written, well done. Good luck!

author: cjm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2017, 03:19:05 pm
content: My SDS1202X distorts the rendering of certain low frequency waveforms with DC offsets. Screen captures of a specific example below. Can anyone corroborate this result on their SDS1000X unit using the same setup as below? (1.1.1.2.15R3 firmware)Image 1: A 2V p-p 10Hz triangle wave, with -0.9V DC offset - no problems...Image 2: Same input signal as 1, but change scope verticle resolution to 200mV/Div - no problems...Image 3: Same input signal as 1, but change scope verticle resolution to 100mV/Div - Oops! This input signal was also split to another scope (also 1MOhm input), but shows no distortion there.Image 4: Same input signal as 1. Appearance of distortion changes as vertical position is adjusted - very strange!

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2017, 04:23:17 pm
content: @100mV/div + offsets and DC coupled that signal swings down to almost 20 divs below ground or so (*), IDK, but perhaps that's too much / out of range / overdriving the front end and/or the ADC and driving nuts something somewhere. I mean, one should expect weird things to happen when pushing things out or near out of range, and more so with these cheap scopes. I wouldn't worry too much, just choose a more sensible V/div setting.(*) That's five screens below ground!

author: cjm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2017, 07:59:48 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on May 14, 2017, 04:23:17 pmOther scopes I've used have been able to "zoom in" on the peaks of offset waveforms like this without problems - this can be useful in some real applications. But yes, I accept it is an inexpensive scope, so I should be realistic in what to expect, (or to expect the unexpected indeed)!

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2017, 08:23:19 pm
content: Datasheet specifications are your friend...Offset Range (Probe 1X)500?V ~ 150mV: ± 1V152mV ~ 1.5V: ± 10V1.52V ~ 10V: ± 100VAgilent 3000 series:Offset range± 2 V (1 mV/div to 200 mV/div)± 50 V (> 200 mV/div to 5 V/div)

author: cjm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2017, 09:58:20 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on May 14, 2017, 08:23:19 pmYes indeed, but I think this spec just states the range of offset it is possible to apply using the vertical control, for a selected V/division setting? - I don't think it relates to an allowable input signal amplitude before some type of distortion can be expected when applying an offset.In any case, just a 1.8V p-p 10 Hz input signal (with zero dc offset) shows a very distorted wave at 100mV/Div on my SDS1202X when the vertical position offset is set to -800mV. I can't see a specification in the data sheet that tells me I shouldn't expect the instrument to operate properly under these conditions.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2017, 12:10:31 am
content: Of course it does relate to dynamic range of input amplifiers...Amplifier will have finite dynamic range, something like full screen plus some reserve headroom... Offset will get summed with input and work to "pull" input signal into dynamic range of amplifier... But it has limits...as for your calc, 1.8V p-p 10 Hz input signal, plus -800mV offset means you expect to have dynamic range of -2,6V/+1V (3,2V p-p ) on 100 mV/div (1V full screen).In order to be able to have both negative and positive offset that would need 5,2V dynamic range (+- 2.6 screens ) on 1V full screen range.. That is a lot..The way I read datasheet, you can have 1 V offset and 1V p-p signal.. Try that, that should work. If it doesn't than datasheet lies.I agree it looks funny.. My Rigol DS1074Z has no problem with 5,8V/p-p with -2V offset on 100mV/div. It is rated to +-2V on up to 200mV/div.. I read that as 9.8V headroom at 100mV/div..Old analog scopes worked with higher internal voltages, having larger headroom...

author: cjm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2017, 09:14:08 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on May 15, 2017, 12:10:31 amI still see distortion in this range - screen captures below show a 1V p-p sine, with no DC offset in signal. When vertical position knob is adjusted to -0.9V (without changing the input signal), distortion appears.Quote from: 2N3055 on May 15, 2017, 12:10:31 amYes, even my DS1052E seems to be happy displaying pretty much any (low frequency) signal where the min/max peaks of the signal can be brought into display range by using the vertical adjustment knob - i.e. if I can pan around the full signal with the controls, then the input is not too large to cause overload and I can trust what I see on screen, without needing to make calculations to check. I though most scopes were designed like this? I'm wrong on this (as I think George and 2N3055 have been kindly trying to explain to me!). I see a good discussion on the same topic already exists in this thread :https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-vertical-distortion-problem/Apologies for side-tracking the current thread!

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 12:44:33 am
content: Quote from: cjm on May 15, 2017, 09:14:08 amIf you switch the probe and the scope to X10, with only 100mVpp now arriving at the scope it should be able to manage theout of analogue rangestuff better, - in theory.

author: cjm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 07:43:23 am
content: Quote from: StillTrying on May 17, 2017, 12:44:33 amYes, thanks! X10 does indeed resolve the issue - the distortion seen in my previous examples disappears at X10.Also, I should mention I've only seen this offset/distortion issue at low frequencies, where I think my unit might generally have some issue, even when signal is within the dynamic range (all on screen). E.g. below is a screen capture of distortion I see in a 100Hz squarewave (the same is seen using a X10 probe or using a different generator). I assume this isn't normal?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 09:53:24 am
content: LF frequency response is not perfect flat. As we know all is only total sum of errors + some unknown amount of truth and nothing more. Ideal perfect shapes can see only in kids school books.Here is typical SDS1kX LF frequency response. From under 1Hz to 300Hz.Scale in image is 25Hz / div (and linear)In this individual unit difference between 25 and 125Hz is under 0.6dB.Perhaps it can tweak better but not without opening. (Front end circuit is dual pathway type and perhaps dc-lf / hf balance can tweak more perfect but also error is not high )

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 10:19:39 am
content: This is more like an adjustment error in the front end. There is no technical reason why a modern oscilloscope shouldn't have a better than 0.1dB (1%) flat response in 0Hz to 100kHz.

author: cjm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 11:12:04 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on May 17, 2017, 09:53:24 amI wouldn't expect perfection, but I'd have thought a DSO should show a 100Hz square wave as being square (within a few screen pixels anyway)? It looks dead square on my DS1052E - how about other scopes?(BTW, both channels on my SDS1202X show the same distortion.)

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 01:15:53 pm
content: Quote from: cjm on May 17, 2017, 11:12:04 amIt looks like it need tweak better.Here identical shots using X+ and X-EAs can see 1202X-E LF response is better adjusted. (DC-LF pathway and HF pathway better balanced)Signal is exactly same around 500mVpp Sine and both scope have all settings same.freq sweep ~0 - 300Hz (25Hz/div linear)Siglent need adjust better least SDS1000X/X+ models analog front ends. This can do better and it do not cost "anything".Things like this can do right and wrong with same money - but it need desire to do better.Since professional "I want do better" do not affect, then money should use power - if it would help it better.SDS1102X+0 - 300Hz (Horizontal 25Hz/div, Vertical signal 500mVp-p. 50mV/div)SDS1202X-E0 - 300Hz (Horizontal 25Hz/div, Vertical signal 500mVp-p. 50mV/div)

author: cjm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 03:49:40 pm
content: Thanks for doing the comparison between the X+ and X-E rf-loop. I'd hoped to use my 1202X for audio work but seems it mightn't be the most suitable for that, oh well...

author: vpv
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 06:04:17 pm
content: This is my result on SDS1102X.Signal is around 500mVpp Sine, freq sweep ~0 - 300Hz (25Hz/div linear).This is a 100Hz square wave. My generator is the MHS-5200A.

author: cjm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 06:10:13 pm
content: Thanks for that vpv - definitely much better than my SDS1202X - Must be significant variation from unit to unit...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 06:16:47 pm
content: Quote from: cjm on May 17, 2017, 11:12:04 amSee for yourself...edit: updated screendump with 100Hz (what happened there)

author: skench
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 06:53:21 pm
content: cjm,Could it be that your input is set to 50ohm be causing your problem?

author: cjm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 07:10:06 pm
content: Quote from: skench on May 17, 2017, 06:53:21 pmNo, afraid not. I see the same result with 1MOhm input, and with a different generator.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 08:45:40 pm
content: Quote from: cjm on May 17, 2017, 07:43:23 amYour SDSX's LF can't be that bad, there must be something wrong somewhere, are you sure there's no digital filters set. A simple CMOS 555 would be fine for test square waves at ~100Hz.I don't trust a square wave's top or bottom levels from an opamp or SG, so the 85Hz square below is the output of one gate of a 74AC14, probe is X10, so 0.5Vpp at the scope, it looks fine to me.

author: cjm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 09:06:20 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on May 17, 2017, 08:45:40 pmI didn't believe it myself at first, so I did also build an LMC555 circuit - but same distorted result. I also split the signal simultaneously to another scope (DS1052E) - it's square on the DS1052E, distorted as shown on the SDS1202X. SDS1202X doesn't have digital filters.My frequency response is very similar to the one shown by rf-loop too - around +0.5dB rise at low frequencies. Maybe rf-loop could post a 100Hz square wave from his SDS1kX for comparison?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 09:20:50 pm
content: ntnicoQuote from: nctnico on May 17, 2017, 06:16:47 pmNtnico, if you'd be so kind to show squarewave of 100Hz, not 100kHz please?Dual path switching in vertical amplifier happens at very low frequencies.. It would not show distortion on squarewave even for 1kHz..Quote from: cjm on May 17, 2017, 06:10:13 pmI would run self-cal, just in case... Self cal should equalize amplification between low frequency and high frequency gain...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 09:40:39 pm
content: I can only suspect the generator.For reference cjm's screenshot:SDS1102X+Source SDG1032XNo additional attenuation, cheap BNC cable.

author: cjm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 09:58:16 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on May 17, 2017, 09:40:39 pmhmm.. two different generators show me the same result and splitting the same signal simultaneously to another scope shows undistorted square wave on the second scope. Here's another example, same signal on the two scopes, this time from a LMC555, for variation... (I also tried running self cal)would be interesting to see rf-loop's 100Hz square wave, as his frequency response looks similar to mine...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 12:13:36 am
content: Time to send it back to the dealer for repair!

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 03:37:33 am
content: Quote from: cjm on May 17, 2017, 09:58:16 pm0.01Hz - 300Hz sweep show what is also low freq square wave response as long as we believe math.

author: boggis the cat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 03:39:40 am
content: Did you reverse the connections when you split the signal to the two 'scopes? Sometimes you can get weird issues with BNC connectors.Otherwise, perhaps the front end is damaged. Is this consistent between channels?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 05:41:01 am
content: Quote from: tautech on May 17, 2017, 09:40:39 pmI can suspect there is differencies between individual units. Perhaps due to internal fine adjust or component tolerances. Problem is or looks like it is between signal two pathways inside front end. There it is splitted for DC pathway and AC pathway. (nothing to do with input AC coupling) This error can see in sweep from nearly DC to low freg and it can see in square shape (mirrored because sweep f was from down to up)Here in last image blue is ref A, stored using 1ms/div and 100Hz square. Yellow is 1kHz square. As can see its frequency freq components are inside quite flat range in front end frequency band. As can see 100Hz square shape follow same shape what can see in image where was low freq sweep. In sweep of course shape is "reversed" because sweep is from low to high but in square shape top and bottom shape from left to right is from high to low if think freq)Here first this previous low freq sweep (~0 - 300Hz) (note vertical scale)In this image signal from Hewlett-Packard FG (this signal shape I trust and it is also confirmed using Tek 2465 and HP54522A) And when someone talk about signal transfer lines quality, matching etc... it is good to realize that we are now talking about nearly DC.

author: cjm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 08:02:48 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 18, 2017, 12:13:36 amYes indeed, or at least calibration, if this can be calibrated out.Quote from: boggis the cat on May 18, 2017, 03:39:40 amI have tried different cables, but at such low frequencies I don't think this should matter.Both channels show almost identical distortion - so probably not damage.Quote from: rf-loop on May 18, 2017, 05:41:01 amYes, my guess too. So, we now have two SDS1kX samples showing similar distorted LF reponse and two other samples showing good (flat) responses. Not much data to draw a firm conclusion, but some indication that any given SDS1kX might have this issue. We also have a number of other captures from other scopes showing no LF problems, which I think shows that we should expect to see an undistorted 100Hz sqarewave on any scope.Quote from: rf-loop on May 18, 2017, 05:41:01 amMany thanks rf-loop for doing this additional capture. It's good to confirm we both see similar result in time domain too. (For comparison, below is my result with cursors added). At higher frequencies (>~200Hz), I don't see any problems on my unit either.So, I've contacted my dealer (a German supplier) and will report back if there is an outcome there. Many thanks to everyone for taking the time to do screen captures and respond - this really is a very nice and super helpful forum!One last thought is that perhaps this is a firmware issue, a problem with the self cal routine? If it's possible to do, I'll try to revert to an older firmware and see if that makes a difference (I'm using the latest version at the moment).(no, not the firmware).Thanks all!

author: cjm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 08:58:48 am
content: Ok, I've received a reply from the dealer :QuoteSo my SDS1202X will be going on a little trip!

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2017, 02:24:41 pm
content: Did cjm get the SDS1202X's LF response fixed/improved ?

author: cjm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 12:12:38 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on July 15, 2017, 02:24:41 pmI did indeed receive my adjusted/repaired unit back from Siglent (via the distributor) but haven't been at my home lab for a while to run a check. Will report back as soon as I can..

author: cjm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 07:40:07 pm
content: So... my SDS1202X was returned from repair and now shows a much improved low frequency response (100Hz square wave response attached). However, my dealer advised that Siglent service centre just replaced the entire main board - so unfortunately I'm none the wiser as to the actual problem on the original board.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 10:45:51 pm
content: Looks fine for 100Hz,I assume CH2 is fine as well.

author: cjm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 10:19:43 am
content: Yes, ch2 also looks good.

author: Orange
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 07:25:41 pm
content: Tautech, did you get any response from Siglent on how to correct this issue in a SDS1102X ?I rather don't want to send it back to the factory. I have all the tools to do the repair myself. Just need to know what parts need to be replaced.As one can see in several topics of the Siglent scopes, the LF compensation of the Siglent scopes is not to good. In fact it is very poor. The upcoming reviews of any new Siglent scope should have a close look at this LF compensation, with and without probes.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 08:04:38 pm
content: Quote from: Orange on November 08, 2017, 07:25:41 pmSorry I haven't investigated any LF internal compensation issues for SDS1kX models, only X-E.Are both channels the same, and probes too ?I'm guessing that screenshot is with probes.What is the signal source ?If we refer to cjm's post, IMO that's the wisest course of action:Quote from: cjm on May 18, 2017, 08:58:48 amFor your location the work will be done in Hamburg not at the factory in Shenzhen or maybe even your local dealer.Yeah I know it's a curse but at least Siglent are prepared to put this right.I'll point someone to your post to get a speedy solution for you. Expect PM contact.Thinking ahead, you want to make sure (if indeed the mainboard gets replaced) they have one on hand to ensure a quick turnaround for you.

author: Orange
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 09:27:30 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on November 08, 2017, 08:04:38 pmYes both channels have this.This is without probesSource is a SDG1032X, and on my Agilent DSO7054 all is fine, so are all my other scopes :-) So it is definitely the Siglent scopeIt is the same issue as posted in a few postings back.The scope was purchased from Batronix. I have not yet contacted them, in the hope I can fix it myself.

author: Orange
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 09:15:18 am
content: Thanks to Tautech and Jie from Siglent, I was able to fix the LF distortion issues on my SDS1102X. Jie (from Siglent) did write me, and advised to replace R430 and R502 in the analog front-end section with an 23.7k 0.1% resistor, 25PPM, 0603 SMD form factorThe original resistor was 10kI tried this in the first place, but then the slope of the distortion became reversed... :-(So I decided to sit in the middle, and the one type resistor I had in stock was 18k. It was however a 0805 type. Anyhow on the pictures you can see that it is mounted sideways.The LF compensation or distortion is now perfectly corrected on both channels.Mind you that you need to do an self-calibration after the fix, because the DC levels become shifted when you change the resistors. Self calibration corrects this nicely.If you want to do this yourself, you need good SMD assembly skills. The pictures taken might give you the impression that this is all big stuff to work with :-)Thanks Siglent and Tautech for your help !

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 07:07:33 am
content: New firmware for the 1kX/X+ series.Version: v1.1.1.2.15R10http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4045&tid=152MbChangelog1. Fixed the read data bug while STOP from ROLL mode, fixed the bug of CSV timestamp error in ROLL mode.2. Optimize self-calibration for Channels

author: Orange
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 10:36:46 am
content: Quote from: tautech on January 15, 2018, 07:07:33 amFirmware works OK, just do a SelfCal after the upgrade