Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 06:43:51 pm
content: I have a Dell e6430s laptop with a genuine Dell AC adapter. It is plugged into an ungrounded GFI outlet (old house built in 1850). I use this laptop a lot outside around the pool area while barefoot (feet on smooth concrete). In high humidity, when I touch the silvered areas of the laptop I get a slight burning feeling at the point of contact on the laptop. If I have something on my feet, it doesn't happen, obviously.At this moment, humidity is low, and I don't feel anything. So I poured a bit of water on the concrete and used a DMM to measure the AC voltage - one probe on the silver coating, the other in the small puddle of water. It's reading about 55VAC! I'm assuming that the available current is extremely low, short circuit current using the meter is .5mA, but should I be concerned about this?EDIT: I should note that the water I used for my test with the DMM had salt in it. Pool is a salt water type; about 3000PPM.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 07:03:10 pm
content: I wouldn't call that "burning"; more like "tingling".Now put your shoes on. Or unplug the laptop from the mains.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 07:11:11 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on July 25, 2019, 07:03:10 pmNo, really feels like burning. No kidding.No shoes here, it's the pool area! Battery is pretty much dead on this one, and it's a PITA plugging and un-plugging anyway.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 07:13:32 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 25, 2019, 06:53:53 pmGood to know, thanks! I'll still try to avoid touching the silver, as it's not a pleasant feeling. (Not into that sort of thing)

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 07:30:30 pm
content: Quote from: Jwalling on July 25, 2019, 07:11:11 pmI would not feel comfortable with that arrangement. Not at all. I would rather use an isolation transformer. Really. Or get a battery. Or don't use the laptop with wet feet. There are many ways to get around the issue.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 08:00:51 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on July 25, 2019, 07:30:30 pmThe Dell power supplyisan isolation transformer.Of course, nothing fundamentally wrong in adding levels of safety, but your suggestion is equivalent to wearing a helmet while sleeping, just in case.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 08:01:21 pm
content: Poolside?Put laptop away. Open beer. Problem solved.

author: richnormand
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 08:30:53 pm
content: Here are some info related to Dell laptops with the aluminium case giving users issues like yours.The first is at this link. The second half of the page mentioned Dell specifically and the Y capacitors:http://www.epanorama.net/newepa/2012/04/02/isolated-laptop-power-supply-issues/Second is this schematics of another Dell power supply. From right to left follow the connection from the GND terminal from the laptop up to RA RB RC RD and CY1 (Y cap). This is connected to the ground on the hot side wich, in turn, goed directly to the mains.You complete the circuit.Schematics from:https://320volt.com/en/dell-pa-12-laptop-smps-19v-3-34a-adaptor-semasi/Not a real safety concern until the cap goes short or water makes it in the power supply.You also comment "into an ungrounded GFI outlet (old house built in 1850)" . It depends how the GFI has been wired. Does the "test" button on it works? Could you envisage making sure all the outlets around the pool get rewired with proper grounded 3-prong plugs. Also look at the pool pump motor (in contact with you pool water) for proper grounding.New regulations are pretty specific about this across NA I think.Final comment I assume you are not using a three to two prong adapter leaving the safety ground floating....

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 08:38:05 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on July 25, 2019, 08:00:51 pmSo the guy feels burning when he touches his laptop and you believe adding an isolation transformer does nothing. Really? Is it because you believe he would still feel the same thing with the isolation transformer? Do you believe the isolation transformer would not get rid of the problem? Really? Or do you believe the tingling sensation he feels in his shorts is due to the pr0n in his laptop and he needs to get rid of those files?

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 09:13:43 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on July 25, 2019, 08:00:51 pmWell, yes, but given the environment, he is only a single failure from a potentially deadly incident. Unlike a proper isolation transformer that would be out of sight in a dry spot somewhere, the Dell power brick could get water spilled on, for example. The connectors are certainly not water-proof neither. Etc.You don't use electric appliances in the shower neither, do you? Even though they are well isolated and kept out of water. What would give you perhaps a nasty shock if it goes bang while you are on a carpet in your living room could kill when barefoot on a wet ground near a pool.GFCI certainly helps (assuming it works!) but I most definitely wouldn't be comfortable using a mains connected laptop like this. That isolation transformer or a battery is a very good idea there, IMO.

author: lordvader88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 01:29:26 am
content: I own a Plasma Globe, and I didn't like touching that with my feet on the carpet, I thought that felt weird. I guess I better not do it on wet concrete, etc

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 01:38:42 am
content: Quote from: Jwalling on July 25, 2019, 06:43:51 pmCould you take a measurement with more precision (and hopefully accuracy)? I don't remember the standard (UL 60950?) exactly and can't be bothered to go dig it up right now, but 500uA is a bit more leakage than what I recall is allowed for portable devices with no grounding. A limit of 300uA comes to mind...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 01:46:43 am
content: Quote from: richnormand on July 25, 2019, 08:30:53 pmIt's an ungrounded outlet. Floating is kind of the expected result. If it were not floating, he would not be feeling anything.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 07:54:25 am
content: Things you can do easily now.1- Check the polarity and then reverse it. There is probably one position where the leak is almost zero because the capacitor is connected to the neutral side. If this is the case then install a polarized plug so that it is always connected this way.2- Ground the darn thing! that is what protective earth was invented for. Install a three conductor cable with protective earth and gound the negative side of the output, or just the case of the laptop. Whatever is more convenient. Temporarily you can just rig a cable from the case to earth. It can be the earth at the electrical outlet or just a spike in the lawn.Do it. It is not difficult and could save a life.

author: richnormand
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 07:24:31 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 26, 2019, 01:46:43 amYou are right.I was assuming the house socket is only two prong as he stated. Some power supplies have three prongs plugs and people use the adaptor leaving an instrument that is supposed to be well grounded floating.Same scenario as two prong power supply but the ground/rf handling could be quite different.In either cases he should look at getting well grounded outlets and pump around his pool I think.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 08:08:52 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on July 25, 2019, 08:38:05 pmThis is completely normal. Yes, everyone finds it out for the first time at some point. Now you know.Yes, it sucks.It has absolutely nothing to do with a safety issue.QuoteDidn't say so. Adding an isolation transformer likely makes the burning sensation milder, but it won't disappear completely. Depends on the isolation transformer's coupling capacitance. Special medical grade isolation transformers would do better.Adding a PE connection to the power supply (if possible with that particular supply) would remove the burning feeling / tingling. This is kind of opposite to the isolation transformer approach.An RCD (also called GFCI) is highly recommended if it doesn't exist already, regardless. (As an unrelated comment.) It improves safety greatly, for both leaky (tingling) and less leaky (less or non-tingling) devices. This is the protection device that adds the secondary layer of protection. It already is, or becoming mandatory almost everywhere. I kinda assumed it exists. If not, add it;regardlessof the "burning" feeling. (It won't fix the issue.)Finally, take note what the allowed usage environment for the devices are. This is in the manual. As said, you don't want to spill water to the power supply, for example. I assumed this is obvious.Level of tingliness is not necessarily correlated to the level of danger. Crappy quality is. Many classical laptop supplies leak so much that using these computers can be painful. Yet they are completely safe. But be very careful about counterfeit replacement supplies.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2019, 05:11:25 pm
content: Measured the current more accurately; it is 446uA irrespective of the polarity of the brick at the AC mains.Tested the GFI, and that works correctly.Checked the GND to the pump which is on it's own separate concrete pad, and it is secured at both ends with a heavy gauge bare copper wire. The pump is grounded in the house wiring as well. Turning off the pump made no difference in the leakage either.So just to be safe, I cut of one end of a USB cable and added a length of wire to the shield. Then I attached the other end to a stake in earth nearby. Leakage is down to under 10uA now. Hopefully this is now safe now, if it wasn't before.Thanks for everyone's input!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2019, 11:29:03 pm
content: 446µA is certainly enough to be felt, not enough to die though.Not sure I would agree with your savage attempt at earthing though. I'd be worried you're making things potentially much worse safety-wise...

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 07:16:01 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 27, 2019, 11:29:03 pmCan you explain this? "Savage"? Worse? How could earthing the case make things "much worse"? I am interested in learning about this. Don't leave us hanging here. Please explain.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 10:07:13 am
content: When it happened, it was when I was typing. My hands or wrists usually being the contact point with the silver coating on the bottom half in the front. Why on earth (Haha) they put this stuff on is beyond me. Some sort of fashion statement? Why not just use black non-conductive plastic?Maybe I'll sand this crap off... I don't care what it looks like.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 01:44:05 pm
content: Have fun sanding it off, that's the chassis. It's a real laptop, not a plastic toy.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 02:16:34 pm
content: These Dells have a solid magnesium chassis... - they last a long time, parts are cheap and available on eBay. Good choice! :-)

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 02:50:14 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 28, 2019, 01:44:05 pmHuh. You're right. It sands off easily on the face, but not at the top where it meets the keyboard top area. I even took an X-acto knife and carved away it it for a bit. Still looks like metal. Note the shavings on the table below.Some Mylar tape would do the trick. If it stays stuck.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 02:57:38 pm
content: Well that was a horrible bit of destruction to a perfectly nice chassis. You could have just taken the bottom cover off to see.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 03:00:04 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 28, 2019, 02:57:38 pmLike I said, I don't care what it looks like. It's only a laptop, a tool. I paid about $160 on Ebay for it.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 06:29:16 pm
content: The USB grounding should work but there is a small risk of damaging the USB port. I would rather try to attach a pigtail to some screw on the body of the case itself or, even better, to the negative conductor of the PSU.If you want to diminish the leaking current even further just put a longer spike or several. Make sure they are protected and no one can trip or step on it.I just saw a youtube video of the walls of a concrete basement being built and all the rebars sticking out with no protection. If somebody trip and falls on it they will be impaled for the remaining few seconds of their life. Don't leave a spike sticking out of the middle of the lawn.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 09:39:53 am
content: Quote from: soldar on July 28, 2019, 07:16:01 amEarthing is a necessary evil where double insulation cannot be afforded, but connecting something to the CPC that previously wasn't connected increases the risk associated with electric shock.The CPC is not necessarily potential free, and depending on the earthing arrangement provided by the supplier runs the risk of rising to fatal voltages under fault conditions (e.g. TN-C-S earthing systems with a lost neutral). Also, where used outside you run the risk of the CPC not being at the same potential as the ground you are standing on - this is why in the UK at least, a TT supply is required for items like EV chargers.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 10:57:40 am
content: Quote from: SteveyG on July 29, 2019, 09:39:53 amI do not accept that reasoning at all. Yes, you can devise a hundred circumstances where "CPC" (I had to look it up: circuit protective conductor, i.e: earth) grounding can cause problems. I can also devise many circumstances where seat belts can cause problems, or airbags, or antilock brakes or any other safety measure you can think of. I can think that an ambulance could blow a tire as it takes the patient to the hospital but that does not mean you are better off not taking an ambulance when you need one.Yes I can think of ways in which grounding any metal appliance can cause problems but the fact is that statistically it is a million times more likely to protect the user than to harm them. This assumes everything is correctly wired. If the previous owner wired everything wrongly then that's not a problem with the concept and the design, it's a problem with an idiot.Grounding the laptop case, as he has done, is a million times safer than not grounding it. Saying anything else is just silly.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 11:17:19 am
content: Quote from: soldar on July 29, 2019, 10:57:40 amBased on what reasoning?We have regulations that say to the contrary. The "earth everything" approach went out of fashion with the 15th edition of the wiring regulations when it was realised it makes things less safe.We're talking about a piece of equipment that has been designated SELV, and has been designed and tested to operate in a safe manner with suitable isolation between mains and the DC output. You are modifying the product such that it no longer meets it's original designation and approvals.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 12:21:52 pm
content: Quote from: SteveyG on July 29, 2019, 11:17:19 amI would be interested in reading those regulations and seeing exactly what they say. Until I read them I can have no opinion.In any case, I would like to know "Based on what reasoning" grounding a computer case or any other appliance makes it more dangerous. Can you explain why? Because I just don't see it.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 12:30:12 pm
content: If you wire it up with any three prong device (eg: monitor, printer or oscilloscope) it's still grounded via the USB cable or VGA port.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 12:55:15 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 29, 2019, 12:30:12 pmGood point. I had not thought of that.Many years ago I sometimes would get a tingling sensation when I touched the metal kitchen sink. It was baffling and took me a long time to diagnose.The metal sink would sometime be in electrical contact with the cooking gas stove next to it and the stove would be in contact with a microwave oven which did have a grounded plug but the house did not have earth circuit yet. The microwave had a slight leakage which went through the stove to the sink and was felt there when doing dishes.The apartment is on a sixth floor so I installed my own ground. I dropped a wire out the back and buried a couple pikes six floors down. Once the kitchen outlets were grounded the problem disappeared.A few years later the whole building was upgraded and earth circuit was installed. I joined my old earth to the new one and that is how they are now.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 02:12:04 pm
content: Quote from: SteveyG on July 29, 2019, 11:17:19 amWould you care to revisit that thought?

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 02:29:07 pm
content: I'm sure he meant PELV.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 02:47:04 pm
content: He he, for some reason I had assumed my Dell laptop had a two prong plug but I went to check and it has a grounded plug.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 02:50:29 pm
content: Quote from: SteveyG on July 29, 2019, 11:17:19 amWas about to reply in the same vein, so thanks to SteveyG. There are whole books dealing with the subject.If anyone here thinks that sticking a random rod at a random place in your garden is going to make for a safe earthing solution, I hope they are not certified electricians.High potential differences can develop even between two rods stuck at a few meters distance from each other in ground. This can also change over time and weather conditions. So just because at some point your measured a low potential difference and low leakage current doesn't mean that it's going to stay that way forever. A proper earthing involves reasonable equipotentiality. There are rules and techniques to do that. Improvisation doesn't sound like one.Now maybe the earthing (/grounding) the OP did is very well done and I have misinterpreted what they said as more funky than it really was.QuoteThis is a weird statement. You have to define what proper grounding is first. Just sticking a metal rod in the ground separate from your house's earth connection is usually not proper grounding.Grounding an appliance with some potential that is NOT a proper "ground" for your electrical network is what could make it more dangerous. Not the "grounding" per se.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 03:14:34 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 29, 2019, 02:50:29 pmLook, it's not my statement. It is SteveyG who said it. Ask him what he means. I am asking him too.This is not good faith discussion, this is plain trolling when you are asking for definitions of things which are clear to anybody discussing in good faith.When asking if a device or appliance is "grounded" we do not need to go into a full discussion of grounding systems and how they affect feminism in the military. We do not need to discuss what the meaning of "is" is.SteveyG made two assertions. One is that the regulations prohibit grounding the laptop. I am asking to see the regulations because without seeing them I can offer no opinion. When I see them I can offer my opinion.I have also asked him to explain why grounding it would be dangerous. I want a clear explanation, not hand-waving and obfuscating as to the meaning of "grounded", the meaning of "device" and the meaning of "swimming pool".As has been shown, many laptops are natively grounded and those that are not grounded can be grounded via USB or other cords.Now, explain in clear, simple terms, why this is (1) dangerous and (2) prohibited.I will not respond to trolling, obfuscating, etc.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 04:36:33 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 29, 2019, 02:12:04 pmThe OP has a Class II PSU. The Class I PSUs obviously require an earth!

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 04:52:15 pm
content: Quote from: SteveyG on July 29, 2019, 04:36:33 pmThe OP has a PSU directly equivalent to the several I have on hand.Who says this is a Class I? You can, in fact, clearly see the Class II mark on this very supply. All the Dell supplies for this range are the same configuration, and are designed both to be doubled insulatedandto connect mains earth to their filter and negative output. It is not unsafe to operate them without an earth (although unpleasant), nor is it unsafe for them to get earthed via another path (although a little daft).

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 05:13:38 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on July 29, 2019, 02:47:04 pmInteresting. My adapter looks the same, but has a different part # and revision. It's made by Liteon. There is no provision for a three prong cord.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 05:17:20 pm
content: Well damn. You do have the rare shock-by-default adapter (seen only in the US, afaik). Let me get some sauce for my hat..

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 05:19:34 pm
content: Boy this is getting complicated.Next time I'm out, I'll buy a rubber mat and use it for my feet. THAT would be safe, I'd guess. Long as it's not all soaking wet.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 05:20:46 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 29, 2019, 05:17:20 pmCan you please elaborate on that? Thanks.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 05:26:02 pm
content: Quote from: Jwalling on July 29, 2019, 05:20:46 pmThe majority of these supplies have a ground pin. Some, to my knowledge only sold in the US, do not - but are otherwise the same design. Those will always leak into you (with nothing else plugged in) because there's no provision for grounding them.You don't see many of these stupid things elsewhere because, well, we either always had grounds available, or have bothered to renew our old and dangerous installations some time in the last century. The few you do see tend to be on machines with very little exposed metal (plastic toys).

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 05:29:35 pm
content: Quote from: Jwalling on July 29, 2019, 05:13:38 pmWithout looking I would have sworn mine was like yours. I remember clearly having one like that but I must be thinking of another laptop. I checked my wife's (same model as mine) and it is also three prong grounded.In the next few days, when I go to our other home, I will check the laptops there. I am pretty sure there is a two prong unit.In any case, you are perfectly safe grounding yours via the USB, as you have done, or as would like better, a screw in the metal case or the negative cable in the PSU.E.T.A.: Now that I look at it that's a weird connector. Center is earth.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 05:45:11 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 29, 2019, 04:52:15 pmI didn't see any image from the OP or indication of a double insulated on your picture. If it is indeed Class II, then the device is faulty. Maximum allowable leakage is 0.25mA for class II items and 0.75mA for Class I portable devices

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 05:55:44 pm
content: Quote from: Jwalling on July 29, 2019, 05:13:38 pmHa, ha! Reading the label it says things in different languages and you would assume it says the same thing in different languages.In English it says "For use with information technology only"In Spanish it says "Use only with grounded receptacle".

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 06:02:49 pm
content: The notion that if it is class II (double insulation) it is not allowed to be grounded is... let us say "interesting".Having too much protection is not allowed?Well, the ones I have at hand all have both.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 06:04:51 pm
content: Quote from: SteveyG on July 29, 2019, 05:45:11 pmIf you look the symbol is very obvious. These are all Class II supplies. I can't speak to the leakage limits, as a mere mortal I am not allowed access to relevant standards for reasonable sums.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 06:19:16 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 29, 2019, 06:04:51 pmAs was said at the beginning of the thread, the "leakage" is the Y capacitor so it is capacitive leak. I guess you could reduce the value or eliminate it. I am not surprised they just ground them all now because it avoids all these problems.Another problem I wish they'd fix is these PSUs have no inrush limit and I have blown more than one fuse in the UK. Finally I have opted for just inserting it inline with the mains cable.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 06:25:44 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on July 29, 2019, 06:19:16 pmThis seems more likely to be crap fuses or faulty supplies. I've never blown one with mere inrush and not only do I have many, many supplies, but extremely high supply voltage.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 06:37:41 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 29, 2019, 06:25:44 pmAll my Dell PSUs produce a nice, big spark when plugged in anywhere. In the one I take when I travel I inserted an NTC inline because, as I say, in UK I blew several fuses.Arrived in the hotel late at night, plugged in the laptop and pop goes the fuse! No worries, I'll use the one from the kettle. Pop again! I forget what I put in place, possibly a paper clip.Later on I inserted the NTC in the cord and that is why I know that is a two conductor cord, not three. It has a bump in the middle.All these laptop PSUs are many years old, I am guessing 15 years. They may make them better these days.

author: jimdeane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 10:02:50 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on July 26, 2019, 07:54:25 amThere it is. I finally hear the classic Treknobabble "try reversing the polarity" (of the shield generators, etc.) in real life.I note that I have actually DONE this, reversing the polarity of a guitar amp to kill the buzz, but haven't heard another person say it in the wild. Now I have.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 10:37:13 pm
content: Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Depends on the connections in the schematic.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 08:59:58 am
content: In summary:On any device, any metal part which can be touched by the user can and should be grounded for maximum protection. This is always true as far as I know and I have never seen any evidence to the contrary.There are devices like some lamps, etc. which have exposed metal parts which are not grounded. If I ever do any repair, change the cord, etc. I will always ground the exposed metal parts. Always. This adds safety.I have bought power supplies and other devices in China that came with no ground cord. As soon as I get home they get a grounded cord which grounds the case. In one instance it might have saved me serious injury. A toggle switch failed and put the live wire in contact with the case. Big bang and breaker trips but no serious injury. After looking at it closely I realized the switch was really badly designed. Very badly. If the case had not been grounded I would have been the recipient of more than 229 volts.In the specific case of this laptop it can and should be grounded. You can buy a PSU which will ground it or you can upgrade yours by adding the earth conductor. You can ground it by way of the USB or other connectors. If it is as old as mine it will have VGA, serial, etc. which would ground it if connected to a grounded device. Or you can just attach the grounding wire to any screw on the case. Any of those is good and better than no ground.Many audio amps and other equipment would not be grounded by way of the power cord but had a separate screw at the back. This was so you could ground just one of the devices and avoid ground loops if they were all grounded. You would ground just one device and that would ground the rest.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 10:30:42 am
content: Quote from: soldar on July 30, 2019, 08:59:58 amI've not read back through the thread as I'm not at a computer, but no, that's not correct. You're connecting something to the electrical installation that previously was not connected. This does not make something safer and introduces additional risks, particularly where the usage of a device or appliance is not restricted in location.Not sure what the earthing arrangements are for your country but we have very specific rules where supplies with a CNE are used due to the risk of different earth potentials.I think the OP mentioned using the laptop outside where the mains earth may be different from terra firma. An RCD cannot protect against electric shock from this. This is why things like equipotential bonding etc were introduced to ensure extraneous conductive parts are maintained at the same potential as the mains earth.Obviously where something is designed to be earthed, then it should be for safety purposes, but where a piece of equipment has been designed to be double insulated, adding an earth to metallic parts is just introducing additional risk.Audio amp earth bonds are not designed to be connected to mains earth - they are designed to link the chassis of other AV equipment together.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 11:01:18 am
content: Quote from: SteveyG on July 30, 2019, 10:30:42 amYou are NOT connecting it to the "electrical installation". You are connecting it to earth. You can connect anything to earth and it will never be unsafer. Because, you know, it's earth. It's the potential you want things to be at.Again, gives us one example and explain the rationale that makes connecting something to earth unsafe. Don't just make an unsupported assertion. Explain it.Quote from: SteveyG on July 30, 2019, 10:30:42 amBeing a boater and having lived onboard I understand that very well. But, again, you are just trying to blow smoke and cloud the issue.Here is the scenario we are discussing: The OP's laptop leaks through his body to ground. Is it better:A- The leak goes through his body to ground with the risk that the capacitor might fail and the leak becomes larger , orB- he put a wire to take the leak to the ground by his feet thereby bypassing his body?It is a very simple question. What is better, A or B? What exactly is the danger of B? Please explain. Do not just assert. Please explain so we can understandQuote from: SteveyG on July 30, 2019, 10:30:42 amYou keep repeating this. Mere repetition does not make assertions true. Please explain. Please provide supporting evidence. Please cite cases that support your position. Because we have shown the exact same PSU with and without earth, sold by Dell. Are you asserting this is unsafe? If the OP acquired a grounded PSU sold by Dell for his laptop, would he be at risk? Please explain.Because I for one cannot understand how or why an insulated object can become dangerous if grounded. Multiple examples and cases that contradict your position have been presented. You only offer repetition ad nauseam.Please just stop repeating. We have heard you. Now if you want to be taken seriously offer some support for your position. Show us the regulations (anywhere) that prohibit grounding a laptop. Show us cases of accidents due to grounding a laptop. Explain how they happened. But stop repeating things for which you have no support. That is not engineering nor science, that is religion and dogma.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 11:15:15 am
content: Quote from: soldar on July 30, 2019, 11:01:18 amThe Earth in any network that uses a CNE conductor means you're connecting it to the electrical installation. CNE supplies are prevalent in many areas of Europe. The earth comes from the neutral conductor at the supplier cut-out.Again, it may be different in your country, but the earth conductor is not necessarily the same potential as the ground you are standing on - it's derived from the star point of the distribution transformer and maybe some additional earth stakes along the way if the supply is PME, but even then, it may be the ground potential some several hundred meters away. Voltage gradients are a real thing.If your local earthing system is TT (i.e. you have an earth stake for each property) then that is very different.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 11:20:31 am
content: Quote from: soldar on July 30, 2019, 11:01:18 amAs mentioned before, for things like EV chargers, we are not allowed to use the supplier earth - you must install a local earth rod or matting and use that as the earth.Quote from: soldar on July 30, 2019, 11:01:18 amThe correct thing to do is to throw away the faulty charger. The current measured is in excess of what the regulations state is permissible.The capacitor cannot fail and cause a greater current leakage - these are Safety Class Y capacitors that inherently do not fail in that way.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 11:51:38 am
content: Quote from: SteveyG on July 30, 2019, 11:15:15 amI understand all that but, again, you are obfuscating and not answering the questions.Quote from: SteveyG on July 30, 2019, 11:20:31 amAgain, this does not answer the question. You are avoiding answering the question which was simple.Protective earth is used to protect the user from unwanted voltages which may be due to equipment failure or malfunction. Any equipment can fail or malfunction, otherwise protective earth would not be necessary. Saying "get rid of malfunctioning equipment" is not an answer to the question asked.Again, the question is: In case of equipment leak (due to bad design, malfunction, whatever), is it better for the leak to go to ground (a) through the user's body or (b) through a wire to a rod put in the lawn where he sits happily sipping Martinis?What is the danger of b, if any? How many people have died or suffered injury by cases like b?Where are the regulations you keep mentioning? The ones that forbid grounding certain laptops.And, in any case, we are not talking about the laws of any country, we are talking about the laws of physics which apply in any and all countries.At this point we are just going around in circles.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 12:17:59 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 29, 2019, 05:26:02 pmOfficially bought from Dell in the Netherlands:

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 12:36:54 pm
content: Protective earth is to protect during a fault.Functional earth is to remove leakage or noise.The gr/ye wire in your house does both.Intentionally running leakage current trough protective earth, which is not supposed to carry current, is bad practice. Especially when this current adds up to something from tingly to painful or dangerous. In large industry machinery it definitely is. But at home you only have one earth. And your options are limited.My neutral-earth impedance in my home is 94 ohm. This is because I have my own ground rod, with low ground water. This is protective earth, and 94 Ohm is sufficient to have 2A offault current, plenty to trip the RCD. If you have them. If I start leaking current into it, I'm guaranteed to raise the voltage on it. Potentially accelerating ground rod erosion.Can I leak into it? Yes, 30 mA (two RCDs worth) or several amps DC.But we're talking about 400 uA of leakage. A klasse II device, no PE, with the double insulation symbol, is allowed to leak 0.5 mA. With >2 Mohm insulation.A klasse I device, with PE, is allowed to leak 7 mA when <6kW or <15mA when >6kW. With >1Mohm insulation.All within set code for the Netherlands at least.Although high for a 60Watt SMPS...Klasse II does not have PE, it hasoptionalFE. It it not prohibited from connecting FE to equalize potentials, since that is exactly what it is meant for.The British are in a peculiar spot where they have a superior electrical system where all plugs are 3 pin, polarized, and regularly inspected. The rest of the world does not enjoy those luxuries.The C7 plug Dell charger is Klasse II. The FE is optional. For the laptop this is signal ground around the various connectors.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 12:37:56 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on July 30, 2019, 12:17:59 pmWell, I guess the US isn't the only place selling defective devices.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 12:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on July 30, 2019, 12:17:59 pmYes, I think both 2 and 3 wire versions have been sold everywhere. All my Dell laptops are American bought and some have 2 and some have 3 pins. I guess Dell bought whatever was on sale that week.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 12:48:42 pm
content: Quote from: SteveyG on July 30, 2019, 10:30:42 amHow? How is "additional risk" introduced?Suppose I am sitting in my porch sipping my proverbial Martini and I have by me (a) my laptop, the case of which I have grounded myself, and (b) a small refrigerator for the ice which comes grounded by design.According to you touching the refrigerator is safe because it was "designed" that way.But touching the laptop introduces additional risk because it was "not designed" that way. (Whatever that means.)Please explain in simple words how they are different and how one is dangerous and one is not.Also, I am the designer now. Explain to me how I "design" things so they can be grounded. What special steps would I need to take that I would not otherwise need to take?What are the design requirements?It has been shown the same Dell PSU can be earthed or not. Was it designed to be earthed or not?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 12:50:19 pm
content: QuoteIn the uk that'll either be the electrical supply's act or/and the iee requlations, somewere amongst them it clearly states a class 2 (double insulated) must not be fitted with an earth wireQuoteA laptop is something designed to be held,a fridge isnt

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 12:53:01 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on July 30, 2019, 12:50:19 pmYes, that is what I am asking to see. Can I? May I?I am sure I can find many regulations requiring certain consumer goods be fitted with either (1) protective earth or (2) double insulation.I am not so sure I could find a regulation stating it can't be both. If we can find it I will read it and give my opinion then. In the meanwhile I will put it in the same category as many other things I do not concern myself with.Show me. I'd love to see it and learn. Please note I am not saying it does not exist. I am saying I have never seen it. Have you? If you have it should be easy to show me where.Quote from: themadhippy on July 30, 2019, 12:50:19 pmThis, again, does not answer the question and is beyond silly. Yes, a laptop has a screen while a refrigerator has a door.The question is in what manner is one unsafe? How?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 01:21:21 pm
content: page 116 section 5.8.1 in the electricians guide to the 17th editionQuote

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 01:33:10 pm
content: OK, the regulation is there. Now, what is the technical justification?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 01:39:07 pm
content: That is neither a regulation nor relevant, as this is not part of an installation.

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 01:44:09 pm
content: If you connect an earthed conductor to your apliance you are basically changing the protection class of this device. To do this in a correct way the device needs to be re-certified after the change, once for EMC, and once for electrical safety.The EMC tests are already absolutely overpriced, so no one in their right mind would do that but instead exchange a device that gives a tingling sensation.To comply with the current regulations regarding electrical safety, for example specified in IEC61010 or DIN VDE 0100-0701, 0100-0702 and 0700-400 (and no, I won't provide a copy of the documents since every page has something like "this copy was printed for company XY and is not to be distributed nor used outside of this company" writen onto it), you would at least have to- make sure that no isolation is damaged, no cables were cut, the shell of the device is undamaged (even when new isolated! only compltely undamaged cables and cases are allowed) and so on.- make sure that your isolation resistance between L+N and PE is high enough (for protection class 1: more than 1 Meg at 500V, exceptions apply for devices with high power heaters)- make sure that the resistance of your protective earth conductor from the beginning of the 3-prong plug to ANY conductive object that can be touched is below the threshold of (most of the time, exceptions may apply) 0.3 Ohms- That EVERY accessable conductive part of the appliance that is NOT connected with protective earth has a high enough isolation resistance (for protection class 1: more than 1 Meg at 500V, exceptions apply for devices with high power heaters)- That EVERY accessable conductive part of the appliance that is NOT connected with protective earth has a residual current between this conductive part and ground of less than 500µA.- That EVERY accessable conductive part of the appliance that IS connected with protective earth has a residual current between this conductive part and ground of less than 3.5mA (exceptions apply for devices with heaters).- ensure that the isolation resistance between L+N on the primary side measured with 250 Volts to the positive and negative of the secondary side is greater than 2Meg- clear out any markings about protection class 2, SELV, PELV- Have a certified electrically trained person measure those criterias and print our a protocol stating that everything is correct - don't forget to make him sign the paper that basically states that your modified device is safe.But: No, I couldn't find any place where it was writen, that you aren't allowed to change the protective class by adding a protective earth. But why would you? I personally wouldn't have neither the time nor the money to go through this whole recertification process.And I personally wouldn't sign such a paper (and don't do it in my all day work, and trust me, many of my colleges have already given my the most strangest things with added or removed parts...), since I don't want to be responsible for any harm that may be potentially done using such a however modified device.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 01:45:26 pm
content: QuoteTo avoid a potential diffrence from standing on mother earth which is maybe at a diffrent potential to the electrical supply earth

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 01:49:38 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 30, 2019, 01:39:07 pmYou are probably right. To tell the truth I just accepted it without looking into it.I guess my position in all this is that this is an engineering forum where we are supposed to know and understand things. "Because that's the way it is", "because the rules say so", are not sound technical explanations.I am looking for sound explanations we can understand. Regulations make sense most of the time. Sometimes by mistake or other reasons they can say something that makes no sense. I am not so much concerned with regulations, which vary from country to country anyway, as much as understanding the engineering issues at hand.If a laptop is grounded why is it dangerous? Answers like we have been seeing in this thread are non-answers. "Because that's the way they are designed!" OK, why are they designed that way?

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 01:50:40 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on July 30, 2019, 01:45:26 pmThis should not happen but, just for the sake of argument, what makes a refrigerator safe to touch in that case?If "electrical earth" has dangerous potential with respect to earth then there is something very seriously wrong with the installation.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 07:06:33 pm
content: I have been looking a bit into all this safety and protection stuff and, man, it's a world onto itself. It could take weeks just to go over it.https://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Standard.htmthere is much to learn there.Firstly persons are divided into three groups: ordinary persons, instructed persons and skilled persons. Ordinary persons, the great majority of users, require greater protection than skilled persons. So, for instance, electrical equipment only accessible to the power company does not need to meet the same requirements as devices intended for the public at large.Energy sources are also classified into three groups depending on volts and amps.Regarding insulation we have basic insulation, which meets certain tests and conditions, supplementary insulation which also meets certain tests and conditions. Basic insulation plus supplementary insulation equals double insulation."Reinforced insulation" is a single insulation system which provides a degree of protection against electric shock equivalent to DOUBLE INSULATION.Requirements are mainly in dielectric rigidity. So, say basic insulation requires a dielectric strength of 1.5 KV and supplementary insulation requires another 1.5 KV you can have a single "reinforced insulation" which can withstand 3KV and that is considered double insulation.There is much to read. Rules about distances on PCB boards, bare, varnished, etc. (creepage). Distances in open air (clearance).Protective earth is regulated according to the type of energy source the part may be under normal and under abnormal (fault) conditions.At any rate, I have not seen anywhere (yet) that any one type of protection measure excludes any other type.Suppose you have a device which complies with "basic protection" and needs to be earthed to comply. If you increase the protection level to "reinforced" by widening a gap distance or thickening an insulation now the device does not require grounding but there is no regulation that I can find which prohibits it. It would make no sense.There are minimum safety requirements but I cannot see where the regulation forbids adding safety which is not required by the regulation.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 07:18:20 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on July 30, 2019, 11:51:38 amActually, I would prefer a nice imperial stout.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 10:35:47 am
content: Another of my Dell laptops has a two wire cord but still that strange fold-back connector.That was a strange invention which was supposed to facilitate wrapping the cords around for storage.I wonder if they sold both grounded and ungrounded PSUs simultaneously or if they transitioned from one to the other at a certain moment in time.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 10:39:52 am
content: A Sony Vaio has a two wire (ungrounded) PSU. The "wart" in the power cable is an NTC I inserted to control inrush current because I got tired of blowing fuses in the UK. In more advanced countries we do not need or have fuses so this is not a problem elsewhere.

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 11:26:09 am
content: Quote from: soldar on August 02, 2019, 10:39:52 amUp until now I thought that the UKs electrical distribution system is one of the greatest on the whole planet.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 12:11:08 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 02, 2019, 10:39:52 amIt's not a problem here. I've never blown a fuse with a non-faulty item, and I've lived here my whole life, not just passed through.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 12:23:41 pm
content: I like the UK system with fuses in the plugs. Allows each device to have an appropriate sized fuse, instead of "one size fits all" in the distribution panel.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 01:56:45 pm
content: It's a joke! People! Settle down! It's a joke!BTW, I just had to deal with another fuse-blowing device. My bicycle tires need pumping air very often. I have a little 12 V electric compressor which plugs into the car but very often when I ask a friend to plug it into his car, or I try rental cars, it will blow the fuse.I have measured the amps when it is working and it depends with the pressure but let's say around 3.5 amps and always under 5 A. But the inrush current will blow fuses and it is a pain having to find a fuse to replace the one I just blew so I have taken to connecting directly to the battery. Sometimes I use a regulated power supply and it works but I'd rather not do that too often lest some transient damage the power supply.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 01:12:17 am
content: I used to have a similar compressor that blew cigarette lighter fuses. As it aged, its motor drew more and more inrush current that blew the 20A fuse. I ended up replacing it with a mixed power compressor from B&D (110V/12V), bit that one gave up its 110V motor after a year of use.I ended up with a Porter Cable compact compressor. Never looked back:https://www.portercable.com/products/power-tools/air-compressors/air-compressor-combo-kits/15gallon-oilfree-fully-shrouded-compressor/cmb15Regarding Laptop Power Supplies: I have both two and three pronged power supplies from Dell and the former tingles (didn't measure the current). Also, not long ago there was a discussion here about Apple power supplies that come furnished with two cables: a two and a three pronged. In this case, I can feel the leakage is much more pronounced, most probably due to the fact the entire housing of the laptop is aluminium.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 08:30:14 am
content: Quote from: soldar on July 30, 2019, 01:50:40 pmNo, it's very common. Everything has an impedance, even terra firma. This is why we typically set up equipotential bonding for extraneous conductive parts so that metallic services that have entered from outside the property are maintained at the same potential as electrical earth. You then have a equipotential zone within the house. Outside is where it becomes a problem and why things like hot tubs and EV chargers would be required to use their own earth derived from an earth rod or mat.Regarding your earlier question, a broken CNE happens more regularly than you would think meaning everything that's earthed in the house can rise in potential and cause a shock risk. Typically the shock risk is small because of the equipotential zone you've set up but again, outside the property is a real risk.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 08:31:28 am
content: Quote from: soldar on August 02, 2019, 10:39:52 amI've never blown a fuse in the UK from a SMPSU under normal operation. You're either using fake fuses or something was wrong with your power supply. Look at the fuse curves for a BS1361 fuse!

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 10:44:51 am
content: Quote from: SteveyG on August 03, 2019, 08:31:28 amThe fuses were supplied by the hotel and did not blow when using the kettle which, needless to say, used a lot more power than the laptop. The PSU is SONY original and works just fine except for that inrush current which I take it comes from having a rectifier bridge followed by a large capacitor. I installed the NTC and that solved the problem. The problem is therefore solved and needs no further resolving.Getting back to the issue of safety, I have been doing some reading and some learning and it is a fascinating topic although quite complicated. There are categories by types of users, voltages, accessibility, etc. But, to simplify a lot, let us restrict ourselves to devices at mains voltage to be used by ordinary persons.For example an old hand-held electric drill with metal exterior housing. If the enameled wire in the rotor were to fail it could make contact with the core which would make the external housing live through the shaft and bearings. The insulation provided by the enamel is weak, "basic insulation". So this device would not be authorized for sale today.To make it safer we cannot increase the enamel thickness and insulation to needed levels but the code authorizes us to ground the external housing so that if there is a fault, an "abnormal condition", the user is protected and the current would be diverted to ground by a path other than the user's mortal body. Class I.Now, the manufacturer can add a second layer of insulation, "supplementary insulation" between the core of the rotor and the shaft so they are electrically insulated from each other. If the basic and supplementary insulations added up meet the specs as to dielectric rigidity, clearance, temperature, accessibility by the user, etc. then that classifies as class II and grounding is not required but in no way is it forbidden. Grounding the external case can be kept or added and, in fact, always adds safety.Note that "class" refers to each conductive (metallic) part individually. When referring to a device it would be the lowest class of any part that can be touched by the user. And "can be touched" also requires defining apertures and dimensions of holes where a user could put his pinky (I mean his little finger).Also note that insulation class is a general analysis of electrical conditions of metallic parts and how they could fail electrically. A metal workbench in a shop, not connected to anything electrical, is already class II because it surpasses all the dielectric and other requirements. That spoon you use for soup? Class II.But grounding that metal bench still adds safety. Maybe one day some wire touches it and the user would be protected.By the way, the regulations assume the common user is always grounded andwillget a shock if in contact with any live part. If the user needs to be insulated he is no longer an "ordinary user".If you look at the PCB of a SMPS you can see cut-outs in the PCB between the mains side and the output side. This is because the safe dielectric distance (clearance) is much lower in open air than over the surface of the PCB (creepage) which can cause flash-over if dirt accumulates. Varnishing the PCB can also reduce creepage distance.I am getting a pretty good understanding of all this protection business and yet a question comes up in my mind. A SMPS PCB has cutouts so it can maintain certain open air distance between primary side and output side. And yet the Y capacitor is mounted (IIRC) in two holes and pads very close to each other and which would not meet dielectric requirements. Not to mention the capacitor itself. If this arrangement does not meet the requirements for "reinforced" insulation, it could well be the PSU does not meet Class II specs and should, in fact, have the output side grounded.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 12:04:25 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 03, 2019, 10:44:51 amInterestingly, it's highly unusual for a mains powered hand tool sold in the UK to be anything other than double insulated, even if it has significant amounts of metal on it. The Bosch drill in the attachment is double insulated for example.Other reasons why it may be preferred to leave pieces of metal floating and rely on reinforced insulation are that it can represent a greater risk of electric shock under additional circumstances, i.e. it provides a lower impedance to earth for you. If you happen to be in an environment where conceivably you could encounter an electrical risk, you're more likely to suffer a severe electric shock holding onto an earthed piece of handheld equipment.Quote from: soldar on August 03, 2019, 10:44:51 amX and Y capacitors have to meet very strict requirements and are designed to fail in very specific ways. We even use them in medical equipment where you may be required to achieve 2 Means of Patient Protection...The creepage and clearance distances will still be greater than the minimum required for the device operating voltage.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 12:29:31 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 03, 2019, 10:44:51 amMeanwhile, the problem that you have it in your head that fuses must blow all the time in the UK because of inrush is unsolved. Yes, inrush is very normal, and yes, you do tend to get a nice big pop when plugging in laptop supplies and the like, but if fuses blew left right and centre with them, you'd think people would notice.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 01:26:59 pm
content: fuses blowing on eu stuff being used in the uk maybe down to the difference in supply voltage,yea were all meant to be harmonized across europe at 230V,but here my supply sits at around 248v and in parts of europe iv had supplys that were below 220v.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 01:52:19 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 03, 2019, 12:29:31 pmMan, really? The problem I have in my head that fuses must blow all the time? Where did you read that? Or is it all in your head?By the way you are reacting you'd think I insulted the Queen or something.Look it's very simple. Sony laptop PSU, with normal consumption, blew a few fuses and I resolved it with inrush limiting. Case closed. No reflection on anybody. No judgment regarding anything. Just an anecdote. Take it for what it's worth. No guarantees express or implied. Your mileage may vary. Not valid in Hawaii and Puerto Rico. Cannot be combined with any other promotion. Can be cancelled in the event of foul weather or hard Brexit, whichever comes first.Jeeez.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 02:20:04 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 03, 2019, 01:52:19 pmQuoteGives the impression you think there's a big problem with such devices. Which there just plain isn't and yours is faulty. It doesn't matter if it's '15 years old' or brand new: They do not blow fuses normally.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 03:25:29 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 03, 2019, 02:20:04 pmI regret any misunderstanding my posts may have caused and I do hereby humbly apologize if I hurt the feelings of anybody in Britain or elsewhere. No negative representation was intended regarding Sony or its fine products, the British, their excellent electrical system, their outstanding political system or their sense of humor. I hereby undertake to use my best endeavors in the future so as to avoid any further misunderstanding. I hope this is a satisfactory apology and closes the matter.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwfuUyTMpVY?t=0

author: stevelup
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 08:29:02 pm
content: I've stayed in a gazillion hotels in the UK, and have never once ever experienced a blown fuse! Your power supply must be faulty...And drifting slightly back on topic, every Dell laptop charger I've seen here in the UK has a three pin C5/C6 connector (AKA Mickey Mouse / Cloverleaf).I'm guessing this regional variation is simply because in many other countries, ungrounded outlets are either the norm, or if not the norm, they are commonly available, whereas in the UK they simply do not exist.