Is NON-CONTACT VOLTAGE feature worth it? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: donescamillo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 11:42:43 am
content: Hi,Silly question, but still have to ask it:for home and hobbyist usage, is it worth choosing Brymen 829, which has NON-CONTACT VOLTAGE detection (which I guess comes in handy) over Brymen 869s, which is more precise, has more features but no NON-CONTACT VOLTAGE detection?I currently have AstroAi M6KOR, but I have not really pushed it hard and I think is not as robust as the Brymens.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 11:57:03 am
content: Quote from: donescamillo on March 14, 2024, 11:42:43 amHow often?It can be bought as a separate very cheap device, if you really need it. The 869s is a great DMM (but it sure could use a facelifting refreshment -- it's an older platform) for everything else.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 12:24:00 pm
content: I don't have any specific experience with the Brymen but many measuring devices, typically from China, have some sort of NCV detection capability added on and they're anything from poor to near-useless. Given that you're using this to try and detect the presence of lethal voltages, I'd buy a separate device for this purpose and then test it to make sure that it will actually warn you of lethal voltages. Again, most of the cheap Chinese ones aren't something I'd want to rely on for warnings.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 12:35:34 pm
content: if mains or HV safety is involved get a Fluke or Miller hot stick electricians volt probe.We use only Fluke DVM, eg 87V.Dont trust yoru life to China DVMJon

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 12:45:56 pm
content: I wouldn't trust *any* non-contact detector when it comes to safety considerations. NCV is just a convenient preliminary indicator, that's it.

author: donescamillo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 01:08:40 pm
content: Dont trust your life to China DVMThis is why I want a Brymen, it is of much higher quality than cheapos. And no, I would not trust the NCV, but as a preliminary test it should be OK.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 01:10:26 pm
content: It's a useful feature. I don't think it's particularly handy on a handheld DMM, because of the shape of it, you cannot get into thigh corners and such. On a clamp mater it's somewhat better, and dedicated contactless pen shaped sensors its very useful.

author: Majorassburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 02:24:25 pm
content: I tried to resist commenting here but my weakness of character prevented me from remaining silent.A few rules to LIVE by when working around lethal voltages with a DMM:1) Above 240V, DO NOT USE A DMM!!!2) Below 240V, USE A FLUKE!!!3) Chinese DMM's & Brymens are fine for ELECTRONICS but NOT MAINS ELECTRICITY.I have been shocked and burned several times in my life by 120V, 240V and burned by 25KV in older TV's and I can tell you that it is no fun.As for NCV, as another poster before me has said, "NCV is just a convenient preliminary indicator, that's it." And, That's really it.Sorry, I just couldn't help myself!

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 02:34:01 pm
content: Quote from: Majorassburn on March 14, 2024, 02:24:25 pmWhy?

author: donescamillo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 03:12:02 pm
content: Your weakness of character is appreciated!

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 03:18:17 pm
content: Quote from: donescamillo on March 14, 2024, 11:42:43 amIt's actually not silly. NCV is definitely worth having but probably not worth having incorporated into a DMM. The standalone tools are inexpensive and generally work better. It is a good idea to use both NCV first and then some other tester (DMM, 2-pole, test light, etc) since one possible wiring fault is where you have only two wires that are at the same high potential and no accessible ground. The probe-contact EF detection as found in the 829S may also be a reasonable substitute for NCV as it will also detect any high potential with one probe.For general electrical work a more useful feature to have in your DMM is the Lo-Z function (aka "Auto Check") which unfortunately the 869S does not have, but the 829S does.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 03:20:44 pm
content: Quote from: Majorassburn on March 14, 2024, 02:24:25 pmSo for measuring voltage drop in a 3-PH 480VAC motor circuit you would use a....?

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 03:30:54 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on March 14, 2024, 03:20:44 pmAn analog MM, I suppose.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 03:33:24 pm
content: Quote from: Majorassburn on March 14, 2024, 02:24:25 pmYes, we get it, Murica best....Brymen has CAT IV/1000V meters that Fluke does not have.If anything, it is safer than yellow overpriced brand.For checking in house electricity even Chinese UNI-T is good enough. Low energy.If you want to mess with power distribution, don't, if you don't know what you're doing..Not because of meter used but general safety rules...NCV in meter is not useful at all. Meter case is too big.NCV volt-stick type is useful but not to be fully trusted. It is one of those tools that if it shows voltage you know it is dangerous, but if it does not show anything it is not sure it is safe...I find contact detectors to be better choice.I would get BM869S as superb meter and get separate BT-75 Voltage tester for electrician work.It is fully featured voltage detector, NCV detection, contact voltage detection, RCD testing, voltage, resistance and continuity.It has vibration alert for high voltages, and will detect high voltage even with dead batteries.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 03:34:51 pm
content: And of course before and after every voltage test were all proving the meter

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 05:19:22 pm
content: NCV is the only option in certain situations, such as for locating inside walls or tracing between closed junction boxes. In both cases, there is no way to directly probe the wire. While I have a lot of DMMs that offer NCV, there are only two that I can highly recommend: the Amprobe AM-47 (Brymen BM27s) and the UEi DL489. The Amprobe is small and sensitive enough that you can check wall switches (but not really inside walls). The UEi is larger but simply amazing in my opinion in how it leverages a unique audio buzzing noise to indicate the strength of the signal. I can zone in on an active circuit in a wall from multiple feet away.Another option is some stud finders offer a voltage detection feature and I have a couple of those. It's more about an extra sanity check before shoving a screw into the wall, though.The voltage detection sticks are a bit less sensitive in my experience and this can be good and bad. Good that you can check individual wires when they are close to each other, but bad for other things like outlets because you frequently have to insert it directly into the socket to have it register.

author: Majorassburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 08:53:13 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on March 14, 2024, 03:20:44 pmAnswer: 1) A licensed electrician with proper training and equipment and his/her life insurance paid up....Or, 2) A Fluke 87V while properly suited and booted and gloved and accompanied by a medical trauma team.Yes, you are correct that there ARE certain circumstances where a DMM must be used around lethal voltages above the common mains. In those special cases, I would suggest that only a carefully chosen, well-proven and fully certified DMM like a Fluke be used.All Chinese DMM's that I have owned and experimented with over the years are of such flimsy construction and have such questionable certifications that I would never think of using them for mains work. And I would be nervous with one even when making a casual check in a residential setting.Now, I'm no fan boy of Fluke or any other brand. But, as some of us who have viewed the Fluke testing video where a Chinese cheapie explodes and burns when it is connected to mains while mistakenly set to the OHMS function, I have a much healthier respect for a Fluke DMM as a result.I'm not knocking a Brymen either. But, I wouldn't buy one myself because the basic accuracy specs don't meet my preferences like the Flukes do. Neither, do I know what their performance record is when placed in use in a lethal industrial environment. I do know what Fluke's is though.Another reason that I wouldn't buy a Brymen is that they have no brand distribution or support in the USA other than a couple of private labels.That's important to me as I ask why a quality DMM manufacturer would avoid the lucrative U.S. market for so many years? Is it because of the potential liability that they would be exposed to if their DMM's didn't live up to their claims and started hurting users?Maybe they, themselves, don't believe that their products could stand up to the tasks when compared to Fluke, Amprobe and a few other U.S. brands with proven track records of safety in service?Just raising questions about DMM's being used in lethal voltage applications, that's all.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 09:20:13 pm
content: Quote from: Majorassburn on March 14, 2024, 08:53:13 pmBrymen actually makes meters that are sold under the Amprobe and Fluke names, as well as Greenlee which is their biggest label. The most likely reason that they don't move in directly is simply that they have a contractual obligation to Greenlee. I use Fluke myself, but not because I think other (good) brands are likely to explode. The video with the Harbor Freight free meter isn't representative of every "Chinese" meter. That would be like crashing your Hummer into a Tata Nano or Citroen 2CV and using the video as proof that only American-made GM vehicles are safe.In any case, if you are working on higher energy systems, you are much more likely to blow something up by using the wrong probes (unshielded tips) than you are to have an actual problem with the meter itself. And the 'proving' requirements mentioned earlier are proving the test leads more than anything because the leads fail more often than the meters, at least with Fluke. I've heard Brymen actually has nice test leads although I haven't seen them myself.

author: Majorassburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 11:19:26 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on March 14, 2024, 09:20:13 pmReally? I Didn't know that Danaher/Fortive used Brymen for their Fluke & Amprobe DMM's...wasn't aware of that. Specifically, which Fluke or Amprobe DMM's are made by Brymen?

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 02:24:58 am
content: I prefer to use a specialized tool for non-contact voltage detection. The grand-daddy of these is the TIF TIC100 "Tracer". TIF also made (maybe still makes?) a 300HV version that is rated up to 125,000 VAC with appropriate insulated handles.A more modern tool is the Ideal 61-025 VoltAware, available around $15 at major retailers. A narrow, pen-shaped tool is more useful for detecting voltage in confined areas such as electric junction boxes.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 02:57:35 am
content: NCV sensitivity depends on how you hold the instrument. It's relying on your body capacitance as the other electrode. Always be careful with how/where you're holding it.Also if the probe "can get in there", anything shielding wires will thwart it.I use NCV only when it's not possible to measure voltages and to confirm the junction box does not have multiple power sources. For when you shut off a breaker but there's still hazardous live wiring in there.I got a cheap NCV probe from Aliexpress I think it was $1 possibly a Fluke knockoff. Hmmm it didn't work very good at all, poor sensitivity. Took it apart, the problem is the probe tip was missing the metal flag and somebody put a resistor lead in place. It uses a 74HC14 and very high Z input impedance 12x22MEG (264MEG) to GND. Works great now.NCV in multimeters, the electrode looks not well thought out, a PCB trace next to a bunch of other traces and nowhere near 264MEG input impedance. so I expect the feature to not work as good as a dedicated probe.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 03:07:05 am
content: Yes NCV is handy. I use it somewhat regularly. I wouldn't make it a major factor in a DMM decision but it's a nice to have feature if it's there. But it's easy enough to get a stand alone tester if you prefer a different meter.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 07:20:37 am
content: Fluke are seriously overpriced. A 179 now goes for £450 when a few years ago it was £250, you are literally buying a pantone colour.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 08:35:07 am
content: Quote from: Simon on March 15, 2024, 07:20:37 amEven £250 is too much.179 is a 6000 count meter with DC accuracy of 0.1% (0,09% in sales talk) and in the rest of the measurements it is not better than 1%.AC BW is 1 kHz.While at the same time you can get 3 pieces of Brymen BM857S/867S/789.Or a BM869, a BT75 and a good Brymen current clamp of your choice.That complement of instruments would be much more usefull.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 08:57:33 am
content: well I just sold mine for £120 on an ebay auction. the guy actually messaged me to confirm I was happy with the price before he paid. I said yes. people had them up for a little more and the fact that they were just sitting there meant no one was interestd.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 09:27:48 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 15, 2024, 02:57:35 amI use a Klein NCVT3 (watch out for the gimmicky ones they added later like the -4 and -5) which is pretty decent and fixes some of the problems very early versions had, e.g. not having an it's-switched-on indicator so you wouldn't know whether it wasn't detecting anything or wasn't even on, it also has an LED bargraph showing the strength of the field and from teardowns is a lot better engineered than a lot of the few-dollars Aliexpress ones.The most important thing to remember about them though is to always check on a live circuit first before using it to test whatever you're testing. To be extra safe, bracket the test, so live circuit, circuit being tested, live circuit again.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 09:33:02 am
content: Simon: A VOM/DVM is not as useful as a separate NC probe aFor mains and HV work we use the excellent non contact Fluke probes 1AC II 1000Vhttps://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/basic-testers/fluke-1ac-iiBest handheld overall DVM is Fluke 87: The 187, 287 are not as reliable and the screens have a questionable uggedness .I bought Fluke 87 V $175 LN w/ test leads and case. Very satisfied. Assembled in USA.CAT III 600V CAT IV 1000V.Cheers!Jon

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 10:02:23 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 15, 2024, 02:57:35 amAn NCV probe can be relatively easily DIY'ed btw, with any level of sensitivity desired (and/or with an adjustable sensitivity), and that will very likely end up being better than most of dedicated or DMM NCV probes. I think it may even make sense to add a 50/60 Hz band pass filter to only trigger on the mains-induced field. The only problem is finding a suitable case, but if you can find a sufficiently thick pen, it'll probably do. It's going to be an interesting project to design a PCB that fits there just right.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 10:14:29 am
content: Or get the cheapest Ali one that looks about right, rip the guts out, and replace it with your own circuit.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 10:15:33 am
content: Quote from: 5U4GB on March 15, 2024, 10:14:29 amLol yes, may very well end up being cheaper than a pen, let alone a dedicated DIY case.

author: Majorassburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 06:32:17 pm
content: Quote from: Majorassburn on March 14, 2024, 11:19:26 pmHi, again. When you can, please let me know which Fluke & Amprobe meters are made by Brymen? I knew about Greenlee but not the others. Thanks for the info.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 07:07:35 pm
content: Quote from: Majorassburn on March 15, 2024, 06:32:17 pmYou'd have to search past threads, examples have been posted. Mostly current clamp meters IIRC, perhaps some other products. These are not just rebadged Brymen products like with Greenlee. It appears that Fluke is using Brymen as an OEM for Fluke-specific products. Somewhere there's a photo of a disassembled Fluke clamp meter with a "BTC" mark on its main chip, so you can make of that what you wish.

author: Majorassburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 08:10:42 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on March 15, 2024, 07:07:35 pmThanks for that info. Although, what you said was that they made Fluke & Amprobe meters which, according to Fluke Sales is not true. That's why I was so curious.I can believe that Fluke & Amprobe might source chips from Brymen and whoever else makes what they're looking for but, that's a long way from making their meters.As you know, Fluke makes a big deal about their meters being assembled in the USA. To have a Taiwanese company like Brymen make them and then for Fluke and Amprobe to sell them as USA-assembled would be quite surprising and dishonest especially because they are GSA-qualified vendors to the U.S. Government and Brymen-made meters with a Fluke or Amprobe brand label on them would not qualify under those same GSA rules.I really like the Brymen 869s but their AC accuracy spec is crappy and makes the LSD useless. Maybe I'll take a shot at one anyway. I like their features overall when I can figure out what they cost in USD$.Thanks again for your response.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 08:39:48 pm
content: Quote from: Majorassburn on March 15, 2024, 08:10:42 pmIt's almost exactly the same as, for example, the Fluke 289's AC spec. Very little difference over the entire range of voltages and frequencies, with one being slightly better in one area and slightly worse in another."Crappy" is relative. What are we comparing it with?

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 08:57:31 pm
content: AC specs is always crappy compared to DC specs and there is a very good reason for that (If you know the math you know why).I like good non-contact detectors, but have never seen a DMM with that and very few loose detectors that live up to that. Generally it is easy to make a non-contact detector, but it is hard to make one that only alarms when it is pointed at a single live wire with mains voltage.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 11:10:48 pm
content: Quote from: Majorassburn on March 15, 2024, 08:10:42 pmThere are shipping records showing full containers from Brymen TW to Fluke USA, plus that banana jack fiasco.The myth that Fluke is what is used to be, surely dead by now.Fortive is about maximum profit by milking an acquired legendary brand name - which means outsource as much as possible."Made in USA" definition changed, I would say only final test/cal at most is done in the Seattle to qualify for that claim.My theory is that Brymen is locked out of North America by their OEM contracts.Analog Devices closing LT plant and outsourcing means Fluke IC's ain't made in USA and surely have become very expensive runs.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 11:40:10 pm
content: Quote from: Majorassburn on March 15, 2024, 08:10:42 pmNo. I'm saying the Brymen actually ships complete, assembled, tested, boxed products with printed manuals to Fluke for sale under both their Fluke and Amprobe name. Fluke doesn't claim that those products are "Made in the USA" and they accurately list their origin as "Taiwan". AFAIK, this does not apply to any Fluke-branded industrial line handheld meters, but note that many of those meters are now labelled "Assembled in the USA" as opposed to "Made in..." as they were before. Since many of those models are made (by Fluke) and sold in China with a 'C' after the model number, I'll leave it to your imagination how much assembly is actually done in the USA at this point. Fluke is a global company--which is fine, good for them--and they make no representations otherwise. I've never alleged any dishonesty on their part. FWIW, they have other models, like the 11x series, that may be assembled in Malaysia, Singapore or wherever. I bought a 116/323 combo kit a while back and the 116 says "Made in Malaysia" while the 323 says "Assembled in Malaysia".https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/dead-brymen-bm869s/msg3606703/#msg3606703I haven't seen any Fluke models that appear to be outright rebadged Brymens, but there are Amprobe and FLIR (different company) models that appear different but internally they are identical to a Brymen original model. There's been endless discussion of this, you can search the forum for Amprobe 140, Amprobe 14/15 and FLIR DM64.On the bright side, my "Assembled in the USA" replacement 289, which I presume is a 289C that was just screwed together here in the US and probably has a made-and-calibrated in China PCB, seems to be just as good if not slightly better than the old "Made in the USA" model.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2024, 03:01:37 am
content: I think my gripe is the 'Made in USA' pricing that Fortive continues to uphold, despite outsourcing parts.I despise mega-conglomerates buying up great brand names, then slashing costs and destroying the brand. They decimate engineering, R&D and manufacturing- outsource as much as possible and cater to investors. No innovation allowed. Fortive stock to the moon!Low cost Fluke non-contact voltage probe out in 2009 but 03/2010recalledFluke VoltAlert Voltage Detector 1AC-A1- then they fixed it.Model T-2recalledover crashing and hanging up for 8 minutes eek, then recalled again over bad battery contacts. "Fluke is aware of two incidents involving these testers where consumers received a mild electric shock."So that's another danger with these NCV probes is you have to check if they work.P.S. Just noticed 87-Vrecallmfg. dates June 7, 2019 – August 26, 2021. Outsourcing those input jack plastics now? lol "...may have plastic material intrusion in the COM input terminal. " Two years to noticeThey used to do the plastics, injection molding in Everett. Next door to Boeing. I wonder if there are tours of the plant to dispel things.

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2024, 03:29:23 am
content: Quote from: Simon on March 15, 2024, 07:20:37 amI would like to give some other angle to this: It always depends who is using the device for what work- so the tool should be suited for the work it needs to do.This said, I work at my job with a Fluke 179, I privately own for my own tinkering a Fluke 45, 8600 and 8020, as well as an Agilent U1272A, and have seen some other stuff around the years.For lots of people especially nowadays with the asked prices Fluke is overpriced- simply because they do not need or use the features Fluke can offer over the competition.But if you work in an industrial environment, where you really have to see that your inhouse electricians are able to work and fix machinery (responding to problems that cause outages in production etc.), you want to have a certain level of build quality, robustness and stability, because you really need to trust the readings- and you need fast calibration services so that you minimize downtime for your staff resp. minimize the number of spare multimeters you have to keep for times like a DMM being away for calibration...Also in industry certificates matters much, and might be in case of accidents vital to prove that you have done your due diligence in choosing quality tools.Also, for some people the "made in USA" mattters much, and some of them are obligated (like military) to not buy from non-domestic sources.Actually, with the knowledge I have now, AND if I would not have had a good deal on my used U1272A, I probably would have gone for something like a Brymen 867 back then as I was equipping my small bench at home. (the Brymen 786 was not available back then). I also thought about going for a used Fluke 87V, but I quickly realized that due to the resolution it would be not really good for electronics work.

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2024, 03:59:21 am
content: Quote from: Majorassburn on March 14, 2024, 02:24:25 pmA bit late to that party, but I would like to say that above statements are quite biased and probably have to be interpreted what they really should express...1) Above safety voltage, please be aware of what you are doing and follow proper procedure to ensure safe working. Here in germany this would mean, according to code: There are the so called "5 safety rules", that loosely translate to: 1) disconnect equipment, 2) make sure it can not accidentally connected again, 3) measure for absence of voltage. And for 3) according to code you HAVE to use a two-pole voltage tester to prevent misreadings and other accidents caused by improper usage of a DMM here. Synonym for this i germany is the brand name "Duspol":https://www.benning.de/produkte/pruef-und-messtechnik/pruefgeraete-spannungspruefer/spannungspr%C3%BCfer-duspol.html1a) DMMs have their justification for voltages above 240V: In industrial environments, you sometimes have to measure things like working on a 400V 3phase motor. I myself used a DMM to confirm some imbalance on the output of a 80kVA UPS system caused by a improper seated current transformer. And yes, working in CAT IV environment here.2) Depending on what the task is, Fluke DMM are of high build quality, sure. I would say, that generally you should use good quality equipment and make sure it is suited for the task at hand. Depending on what your requirements are, in some cases even cheap quality chinese DMMs might be used without problems...3) Regarding electrical safety, I trust the chinese DMMs usually as far as I can throw them, which is not much... Brymen on the other hand has a certain track record of building good quality devices, that are UL marked and also get tested by independent sources like J. Smith here in this forum.I personally do trust the following brands for mains work: Fluke, Keysight/Agilent, Hioki, Gossen, Brymen. Other brands surely apply, but I have not used them (yet).That said I would ask another question: Does anyone has reliable data of how well and stable the recent Brymen DMMs are? With Fluke, especially older models, you experience decades-long stability regarding accuracy- my old Fluke 8600 still delivers good readings after 40 years... - Are there any reliable data regarding the stability of Brymen DMMs over, say, 10 years?

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2024, 06:52:19 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on March 14, 2024, 03:33:24 pmIn particular theUT18C is pretty decentand as you say should be fine for standard residential work.