Logitech new business model - own nothing & be happy with subscription - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 08:33:13 pm
content: Hanneke Faber, the CEO of computer and tech company Logitech, announced a new business model that would charge customers a subscription fee to lease the use of their computer mouse.https://winepressnews.com/2024/08/03/logitech-ceo-says-youre-going-to-really-love-not-owning-a-computer-mouse-and-paying-for-a-subscription-to-use-it/original article -https://www.theverge.com/24206847/logitech-ceo-hanneke-faber-mouse-keyboard-gaming-decoder-podcast-interviewquote-Of course, we talked about whether anyone wants their mouse to be anything more than a mouse — Logitech is adding AI features and even AI buttons to some of its products,

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 09:16:00 pm
content: It is fine, it is not like there is lack of decent mice. Although my current mouse is Logitech and I love it, there is zero chance I'm paying for a subscription.And really, the only reason my mouse is Logitech is that I have not bothered to look for mice with similar features from other vendors. I can't see how this is a good idea to force your customers do market research.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 09:41:58 pm
content: Uh uh. Yea. Well I won't bebuyingsubscribing to a f*cking mouse. I guess there are idiots out there that will though.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 09:56:51 pm
content: Yes. The idea is indecent, and yes, there *are* millions of idiots out there.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 10:30:49 pm
content: When your subscription runs out, does your mouse stop mousing? How would Logitech enforce that?

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 10:36:29 pm
content: WTTFF, a mouse on subscription - is this a joke or when is this madness going to stop!?Sure, there are other manufacturers but just look at the software industry, more and more is subscription only (with terms that the supplier can change at will). If Logitech gets away with this crap others will follow in short order.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 10:40:11 pm
content: Quote from: fzabkar on August 03, 2024, 10:30:49 pmIf it ever happens (I predict not), it will likely be stuff that does not matter, like RGB lightning and other "gamer" stuff. They already run some crapware to control that, so it will probably check your license.I don't expect this to ever apply to basic mice.Although the whole concept is stupid on the surface and will never work.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 10:42:29 pm
content: Quote from: H.O on August 03, 2024, 10:36:29 pmAnd this is where random Chinese vendors from AliExpress will come into play. And Logitech will bitch and moan about that.Just like label printer makers turned their product into such crap that random printers from Ali are much better and more functional.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 10:49:46 pm
content: Yes, this is a suicidal move for companies, but they are doing it anyway and CEOs will get millions for implementing that move.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 10:58:37 pm
content: What to expect from some woke WEF gangster chick coming from:Logitech brought on Hanneke, a longtime executive with an extensive background in consumer goods at conglomerates like ""Unilever and Procter & Gamble"".https://www.weforum.org/people/hanneke-faber/

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 11:00:28 pm
content: If the AI features, makes the mouse a very powerful, ChatGPT like assistant. That you can physically speak to (built in microphones), to speed up and automatically perform various PC tasks.The software gets very regularly updated, in a way that is both good and useful for the user.Simple and straight forward, rarely changing terms and conditions.A subscription of perhaps, $0.25 per year, if paid annually, $0.99 for free life membership, perhaps freely included with their higher range mice.Plus extended guarantee (free mouse repair/loan/replacement), during subscription period.It would not be too bad. (In practice, I suspect the subscription costs, would be way, way more, amounting to huge amounts of money, over a number of years).

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 11:06:30 pm
content: Why would I want to speak to a mouse when it is inherently tied to a PC that can already do all that?There is nothing they can do to make this attractive. At most they would be able to sell cosmetic features to people that care about this kind of stuff.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 11:19:48 pm
content: For one thing this belongs to "Dodgy Technology" since we don't have a "Dodgy Ideas" or a "How to make your mark as the new CEO without sounding like an idiot-and fail" section.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 11:21:38 pm
content: Intel is also probably considering going for that model. I think we heard of it before. But with their recent "strategic" move, my guess it's that it's finally coming.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 11:26:28 pm
content: Announcing a CPU subscription model right now would be a hilarious way to drop the stock price another 30%.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 11:34:05 pm
content: Haha, I actually fixed my logitech mouse. The thought of spending $20 on another one gave me a stomach ache.Right now the easiest way to save money is to avoid subscriptions as much as possible.I think they have a pool of victims, i.e. people that did not get hit by heavy incidental costs in their life yet and have a unrealistic assumption that income and expenses is actually steady (its likely not to be).I.e. utilities increase, tax increase, rent increase....What did you notice about rich businesses? Theyhateheadcount. Because its a god damn subscription cost. Some have more because of future planning (smart) but its still ALWAYS frugal in the grand scheme of things.The WEF "money on time" mentality is extremely god damn fragile. And telling people that everything is smooth and nothing will go wrong is the easiest job there is.... don't believe it

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 11:40:29 pm
content: I'm afraid people in general aren't that bothered and will just go with the flow and comply whithout giving it much thought - which is the dangereous thing. Look,my new mouse has AI, got to have AI, don't I..., oh for f...And the further we get into thiseverything-on-subscriptionthing the more norm it gets. Soon people will know nothing else and we won't be able to get into our house without a subscription on our door lock forced upon us - which the manufacturer can change/cancel/revoke as they see fit.I'm typing this on a Logitech MX Keys (which I do like very much) but now I want to throw the thing out the window. Logitech playing the environmental card, give me a break.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 11:46:32 pm
content: usually people like that won't be more successful then a few years. As soon there is a glitch they go poof. If you are lucky, its your moms basement, not a 4 room mate rental.I think we see it more now because trends spread extremely quick and much more people are heard online. So bubbles grow quicker, get bigger. I noticed talking about finances to people feels like talking to fanatics when they are on the next thing.I think older people saw more like soap bubbles, young people are seeing boiling... it makes me think of a new phenomena in economics, bumping. Like a vacuum distillation. So many successful bubbles form that it breaches the container and shorts out the hot plate.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2024, 12:08:18 am
content: Mouse is one of those gadgets that reached a plateau of functionality.So, this is nothing really new. That is the "B.S. Bingo" game played at C-level meetings: be pitched a "breakthrough innovative idea" that will "break the paradigms" and open the company to a "promising revenue stream" by "adapting the sales model" of their mainstream product with their Mouse-as-a-service (MaaS) business model. Sprinkle "AI" and "blockchain" here and there on the .PPT and you have not only a new job but a five-year budget plan to put it in march and reach an unattainable 40% adoption rate.Give or take, the M.O. is very similar to a Solar Roadways... Not thinking about the impracticalities of the new model face the existing simpler solutions.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2024, 12:23:25 am
content: There is still place for improvements. I currently use Logitech MX Anywhere 3S and it has awesome scroll wheel. It can change between clicky and smooth scrolling on the fly. It has different modes and I have it set where it is clicky for small scroll movements and it goes to smooth for long scrolls. It is great and I would not think twice paying another $70 if I had to replace this mouse.They can make small incremental improvements like this and have a decent business. But the issue here is that market demands infinite growth, which is impossible in reality. So, CEOs are stuck coming up with stupid ideas how to trick their investors to not pull out the money for a bit longer.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2024, 09:22:52 pm
content: Woe on the CEO who has promised the market to meet certain financial indicators, and realizes can’t meet them. There is a special place in Wall Street hell for those souls.Therefore a total and absolute panic grips the board room, and after struggling for days without an answer, and the quarter’s end rapidly approaching, someone says: “what if we start a toilet-paper subscription program”, and everyone screams: “Yay, fantastic idea! Everyone shits and requires to clean their butt afterwards! Thanks, Pete.”That is how I believe these corporate ideas flourish.Has anyone heard about Wendy’s surge pricing idea? Fortunately it appears that they have backed off.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2024, 11:04:49 pm
content: Logitech had a nice line of programmable remotes named Harmony that people liked. I had a couple. But I'd repaired the keyboards so many times and the lettering was worn so bad I finally needed new ones. But I found out they discontinued the production of the Harmony remotes a few years ago. So they just threw away that part of their business and now they want to make more money from a simple thing dating back to the prehistoric PC era. Douglas Engelbart must be turning over in his grave - a subscription tothisthing?Maybe they just need to invent something new that people want to buy - or have all the inventions for desktop PCs been achieved?

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 01:54:04 am
content: Quote from: fzabkar on August 03, 2024, 10:30:49 pmThe best part is that the "software" is what will stop working. Normally I would pay extra to avoid their "software" so I think this is a great idea.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 02:07:38 am
content: I have at least a dozen mouses, many of which I got for free, and a big bag of replacement switches I bought for <$0.01 each. There's very little that can go wrong, and they don't need much maintenance, so I can see why companies are trying to squeeze as much $$$ from the users as they can.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 02:12:54 am
content: You know I read that woman's interview again. That just makes me ... well angry.I don't know how else to describe it. Grrrrr. I need a drink I guess to calm down. Where have all the inventors gone?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 02:22:56 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on August 03, 2024, 09:16:00 pmGood luck with finding other decent mice.I have, from time to time, done intensive mouse searches, and I keep coming back to Logitech. I have had good Microsoft mice in the past, but they were either discontinued, or broke. Also, Microsoft has been withdrawing from the hardware business.Gaming mice exist, but they tend to be really expensive.Overall, when I use Logitech mice (and keyboards, they are also excellent) they ask me to install the special Logitech software. I usually say "no" and use the default USB drivers. A subscription charge will make me even more likely to say "no".I had to deliberately uninstall one Logitech driver recently, because it was causing a blue screen on my work computer. If your computer blue screens, 90% of the time it is a faulty driver, the other 10% it is failing hardware.The golden mantra of engineering is "add simplicity". Adding simplicity means no special software, no AI, no Copilot, no unwanted "clever stuff". People call me "old", and that I need to get "with it", and join the Gen Z crowd. No thank you. I will use things if they are useful, not because they are fashionable.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 02:54:43 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on August 05, 2024, 02:12:54 amthere is a lack of innovation and the innovation becomes essentially over management. They don't notice it, but the external observer notices that the offerings basically the same thing with fancy packaging, arranging and assurances

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 03:33:38 am
content: AI is all the innovation now!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 04:09:01 am
content: Ai is management . IMO often of complex tools that have poor UI

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 04:32:44 am
content: MBA's are neurotic, insecure and demand "recurring revenue" so they know a steady amount of subscription money is going to be coming in. Instead of the scary unknown when the quarterly financials come in, the phobia over "will we meet expected earnings?". Poor Wall Street clowns can't take the unknown, the undefined.Logitech isn't anything special - many companies making mice and keyboards. Some of their mice/keyboards I've used are terrible, not ergonomic and poor wireless range/performance. Their gaming mice are $200. M325 wireless poor range and kept cutting out. Tried to get parts for a Logitech $300 gaming headset and nope, toss it in the garbage is the support you'll get.They could innovate and make some great new products instead of all the resources going into the pivot to your rental mouse like a HP inkjet printer lol.Investors are already realizing AI is like the dot.com bust - it's another boom and then the bust. Fueled by hype. How do you monetize AI? Where are the profits?How can AI extract cash from the People? Until that question comes up, AI everywhere!

author: gabiz_ro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 06:10:16 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on August 03, 2024, 11:06:30 pmIt looks like in Star Trek history it was the casehttps://youtu.be/hShY6xZWVGE?si=rNQCzmvVamlXKiDd

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 09:52:45 am
content: "We have come to the painful realization that our mice last too long -- despite our best efforts to use cheap buttons. How are we going to make enough money?! We have considered adding non-replaceable LiPo batteries or other short-lived components, but prefer the revolutionary idea of charging a subscription fee."

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 10:08:31 am
content: The reality is (as I understand it), this has happened, often with a number of things, in the past.E.g. A very long time ago, a computer printer (Dot-matrix) was a genuine item.You paid perhaps £200/$200 for the printer, and occasionally something like £5/$5 for a new ink ribbon.The greedy printer businesses, decided they were not happy with that way of doing business.So, they sold the printers (then ink-jet), for perhaps £50/$50. But charged perhaps £20/$20 for each ink colour cartridge, which only had an all too small, amount of actual ink in it. So, 20 .. 50 (or some amount) of printed pages later, the cartridge(s) would need renewing.Cheap projectors, but the replacement bulbs cost hundreds of pounds/dollars, and only last, perhaps 500 or a thousand hours, each.Reportedly, there are such schemes for Razors (wet ones), where the handles are amazingly cheap but the replacement blade things, are expensive.Reportedly, Microsoft, is doing stuff like that, with Windows 11. It shows adverts which say something like, let me backup your computer.Then as soon as you exceed/reach 5 GB, it insists you have to pay a monthly subscription.So, perhaps mice are heading in the same direction.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 10:25:52 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on August 05, 2024, 10:08:31 amI am sure they had brainstorming sessions at Logitech to come up with consumables for mice!Like those fancy electric razors with cleaning stations, whose only purpose seems to be that they consume a proprietary cleaning fluid. Lest the poor manufacturers would have to wait two full years until the customer buys a new shaving head...

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 10:38:00 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 05, 2024, 10:25:52 amA new type of OLED RGB, flashing lights inside the mouse. Which needs 'Organic LED fluid', refills every week, to keep them well oiled and vitalized.This (mouse) OLED Organic fluid refill, costs less than a full tank of car fuel, each week, so not too expensive. (Joke advertising slogan).If/when electric cars, become much more common-place. Some kind of road distance subscription/charging scheme, may come in to play. To make up for the lack of fuel duties, in some countries."Your brand new Logitech Mouse, comes with, free (yes absolutely FREE), 35 days worth of usage (cleverly checked by this patented high security chip, inside the mouse). After which we have generously kept the subscription costs, down, to affordable levels, by most rich peoples standards."{Joke advert, made up by me}.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 10:42:14 am
content: My favorite in the "Let's go subscription!" category is BMW's plan to charge a subscription fee for activating the pre-installed heated car seats. Good to see that customers just wouldn't have that and common sense prevailed:https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/7/23863258/bmw-cancel-heated-seat-subscription-microtransaction

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 10:47:09 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 05, 2024, 09:52:45 amWhat they are doing now is the rubber coating. It's 100% intentional that it's on all the high end mice nowadays and it's the first thing to go. My mouse at home has maybe 2-3 years lifetime before it looks like a dog chew on it. This seems to be constant across their high end range.It's not difficult to make a high end mouse last almost forever. We can already do that with keyboards. There is a large community of keyboard builders, that will use machined aluminium cases, custom layouts, high end mechanical switches to customize they keyboard to your own liking, and custom color keycaps.I can totally see this happening to computer mice. There are SLS printers that can print objects that are nice to touch. Or after a nice shape is found (reverse engineered) a community of people can throw together the money for an injection mould. This is not rocket science, and they don't have monopoly on the high end mouse market.If logitech goes this subscription model, so be it, no more sales to me. Same for printers, I went paperless.You are not going to charge me money for these things. Screw your agenda WEF.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 10:48:46 am
content: Logitech softwares who tries to install itself in win11 when you have their peripherals ...

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 10:51:16 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 05, 2024, 10:42:14 amThere was huge outcries, when Intel was discussing, having some CPU features, that could be enabled (after purchase), by paying Intel money, to allow/enable, extra features.This was largely hated by users (comments, fortunately before they actually implemented it for real). Because in effect, you would have to pay for your CPUs, twice. Once to the seller, and a second time, when enabling the extra features.I'm happy for Logitech, to sell differing priced mice.E.g. a Cheap one for £6, and an all singing and dancing, feature packed one for £60. Users can then choose, which suits their preferences and use cases, best.But, subscriptions are no good, because if the subscription was £10/month, and you keep/use the mouse for 10 years.That would be £10 x 12 months x 10 years = £1,200 plus the subscription costs, may go up, in time.£1,200 is ridiculous!But I get the impression, that not everyone realizes how much subscriptions can mount up to, in the longer term.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 11:41:48 am
content: Oh well. I suppose future me has to construct my own mice, too... a nice wood burl, maybe? I like beeswaxed baltic birch.The annoying part is the sensors and the lenses, they're not at all easy to obtain for a hobbyist. PixArt only sells to large vendors. There are some AliExpress/eBay sellers; standard warnings apply.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 12:15:51 pm
content: Remember the other "trick" they all use - autorenewing subscriptions -Yes dear Logitech customers - we have removed another hassle in your life - having to renew the subscription to your forever mouse (or fill in the blank ______ ). Doesn't a Forever Mouse deserve a Forever Subscription? We have made it so for you! You have such busy lives that and we have worked hard to remove this task for your convenience. Your Forever Mouse subscription will auto-renew unless you email (sorry no phone number) our friendly and courteous help line and cancel.11. Cancelling comes with a 20% processing fee and must be done within 24 hours of the official subscription end date other terms apply please read the terms and conditions attached with your forever mouse subscription. Cancelling outside of the window will attach a 50% fee. This subscription is non-transferable.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 01:43:53 pm
content: QuoteMicrosoft seemed to have manage it,my everyday driver is one of there trackballs thats over 25 years old.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 02:14:25 pm
content: Why stop with mice, do keyboards/keypads too, the display or the power cord. Put an authentication chip in the power cord, done.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 02:46:06 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 05, 2024, 10:47:09 amAnd after a few years more that rubber coating becomes a sticky mess. I had this pleasure with a Logitech trackball. BTW, if you're looking for a wired trackball check out Elecom. Some models have an extra button for changing the DPI value while being pressed (great for CAD/CAE). I guess I won't buy any Logitech stuff in the future because of declining product quality, poor price-performance ratio, and the subscription nonsense they are thinking about.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 03:12:38 pm
content: On my Microsoft mouse, when that soft rubber coating deteriorated it got inside the bearing of the mouse wheel and stopped it from turning smoothly, which rendered the mouse useless. Very annoying.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 04:34:17 pm
content: I have a simple business model for Logitech: if they do this I will own nothing of theirs & they will not get my subscription.I do own a few Logitech products and, barring some misuse on my part (spills and dropped keyboards) they seem to be reasonably resilient. If the major cause of death for these products is in fact external factors, I can't see how a subscription model solves things. Sure, there are possibly a few keyboards with worn keys and mice with broken buttons, but those take quite some time to set in if the manufacturer has put even half-decent components in them.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 04:48:31 pm
content: The major cause of Logitech mice failures are:They can't stick the slippery feet on properly, for anything but the most expensive mice. Once you lose those the mouse just won't slide well.The combination of the button switches they use, and some lousy debouncing techniques, mean the buttons start double clicking on a single press.I can see a subscription feet service working, but subscription replacement of the switches seems like a problem.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 06:34:48 pm
content: Quote from: gabiz_ro on August 05, 2024, 06:10:16 amDang! Beat me to it.That's one of the best scenes in the "original" Star Trek movies

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 06:45:01 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 05, 2024, 04:48:31 pmInteresting. I have never had any of those failures on my Logitech mice.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 08:55:49 pm
content: I remember a long ago interview with Bill Gates discussing why you should continue to pay for his software - because it's doing work for you.Then I considered benign tools like screwdrivers and hammers are doing work for me too.And now we have cordless power tools that need to be activated before they will function and I expect they will also take up the subscription model.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 09:08:20 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 05, 2024, 04:34:17 pmYes, but then I see people paying subscription to a damn doorbell. And you see those everywhere. Like what does it do? Forward you few seconds of RSTP video feed every few days, saves a few megabyte of data on the cloud... 1300 employees. What the actual f are they doing there? You can literally throw together some python scripts for a linux machine to have the same basic functionality. And then it's expensive. I wonder why.Here is what happens: You have a hardware product, you plan the development and launch of it. Then you plan 0 time for software. You compensate by hiring more software people. They turn your company into an agile self-sustaining ever-growing bureaucracy hellhole, that burns through more than a hundred million dollars a year. Instead of hiring a dozen competent engineer to do it.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 09:17:52 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 05, 2024, 09:08:20 pmWell, it could be worse. You could buy a bunch of expensive kit and the cloud service it requires goes out of business. I would hope a subscription raises the chances of them staying in business, but who knows. The real failing is the lack of standards for looking through your home's router/gateway box, in a secure manner, to directly access your own stuff from your own phone when on the move. Even people like TP-Link, who make both the routers and security devices that millions use, aren't doing much.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 12:59:54 am
content: I wonder if the Logitech Lease-Mouse will work at all without an internet connection, to verify the subscription status?The idea of the same driver that interprets my mouse movements needing an internet connection to work gives me the heebie-jeebies.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 01:04:40 am
content: Well, yes! Think of your every mouse move being sent to a Logitech server, logged (to better serve you, of course!), processed via some AI to figure out what you really want to do, and finally sent back as actions to your computer! Isn't that great?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 01:11:18 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 06, 2024, 01:04:40 amBut that means the AI could take over your PC and do whatitwants to do!

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 02:07:28 am
content: Not shortage of examples for CEO of her kinds to lead a tech company. Next few quarters P&L should look good. Can Logitech survive her? The board asked for her P&G experiences, can't blame her.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 03:51:31 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on August 06, 2024, 02:07:28 amShe might get a suprize by Christmas. No, not a good one.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 04:06:40 am
content: Not worried for her. A bit more for Logitech employees and customers.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 09:36:32 am
content: There are other possibly concerning problems, with this intended subscription model. Depending on how concerned you are about privacy.If the mouse subscription has your payment details (i.e. credit card, hence likely to also need your name/address/email and maybe other details). Then if they collect your usage/etc data (as is all too common these days), it can tie it in with your exact/actual personal information.So (hypothetically) the mouse (driver) might recognize what webpage you just visited (if that is technically possible, from within a mouse driver), e.g. a webpage showing new homes for sale.Your personal details, can then be 'sold' to would be advertisers, saying you are looking to move and buy a new home. So they can spam you at your active email, mobile/telephone numbers, physical address etc.Made up (but typical) example:I get concerned, when I look at a repair thread on the forum. It mentions a particular monitor/TV model number, which I google, to find out more about it and its details. E.g. ending up on an Amazon page.I then switch to a different device, and adverts can pop up (appear on the webpages I visit), for that very same monitor/TV or whatever.IIRC I've said I need a new something on Skype. Then when on YouTube, adverts for the exact (relatively specific item type), pop-up. Someone else, thinks it is just a coincidence, but I don't think so.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 11:16:33 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 06, 2024, 12:59:54 amPhone card.Card terminal for every computer.Move tokens

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 01:37:18 pm
content: What about a mouse with integrated display to show ads?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 01:49:12 pm
content: Quote from: madires on August 06, 2024, 01:37:18 pmBetter still. Whenever an advert shows on screen, the subscription software automatically locks/freezes the mouse and keyboard, until the advert(s) have finished.Unless you pay for the super-deluxe subscription model, which only costs double, the usual subscription.Also, once the advert(s) have finished, the mouse only lets you close the advert (hence slightly more viewing time), first, before doing anything else with it.I need to be careful, what I joke about, because:Quotehttps://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/google/google-chrome-warns-ublock-origin-may-soon-be-disabled/

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 01:53:22 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on August 06, 2024, 01:11:18 amAt that point AI has already taken over your computer; and it's merely doing what you told the mouse to do. But the controllers of the AI can re-direct your computer to do something else without your consent, or even your knowledge that it is doing something else.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 02:05:20 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 05, 2024, 10:42:14 amUnfortunately Tesla, the EV market leader at least for now, has these preposterous subscription services that, the last I read, have proven to be financially successful.Thanks heavens that Tesla cut the Full Self Driving subscription from $199 to only $99 per month. Thanks Tesla, you are so generous!!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 02:24:00 pm
content: Quote from: madires on August 06, 2024, 01:37:18 pmThey can add a loudspeaker to it, with the following (made up) advert.Your Logitech mouse, has been enhanced with a powerful loudspeaker, to give you useful alerts and information. Don't worry about annoying adverts, it might play. You can easily disable them**, at any time.[** = As long as you pay for the highest tier subscription, to enable that option. When enabled, adverts will no longer audibly play, unless they are really important ones (as chosen by the advertisers), in which case they will still play]

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 02:32:18 pm
content: Don't forget: the optical sensor is perfect for reading hidden (printed using near-IR absorbing/reflecting paints) mini-QR codes.The trackability possibilities! The monetization opportunities!Pity. Logitech destroyed its brand goodwill in one fell swoop, like certain large companies with theiroddmarketing campaigns that have still not fully recovered. I have several Logitech keyboards and mice, but will definitely drop the brand: I am not a product for them to monetize.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 02:42:18 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 06, 2024, 02:32:18 pmI'd suggest waiting to see, what they eventually decide and do. It might not be too bad.I seem to have experienced, a Logitech mouse, going from lasting many years (e.g. around 7 years), down to more like a year and a half, until the (identical IIRC) replacement broke in the same/similar way. Possibly due to reduced quality parts, such as buttons.EDIT: Written in a shorter way

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 02:57:13 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on August 06, 2024, 02:42:18 pmThe cat is out of the bag now. If not Logitech, someone else will. Everyone loses except the rent-seekers.I'm worried they might do exclusive licensing deals with the optical sensor manufacturers like PixArt, making no-rent devices difficult or impossible to implement.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 03:07:57 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 06, 2024, 02:57:13 pmThat is a good and fair point.They (Logitech), should really have had an engineer (qualified and/or experienced etc), at the top of the company. Then the quality of the products would tend to remain, and potentially lackluster short-sighted, make more profit, in the short-term, at the customers expense. Things, would tend to not happen.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 03:25:43 pm
content: Okay, any good alternative to Logitech?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 03:43:55 pm
content: Quote from: Zucca on August 06, 2024, 03:25:43 pmThere are some really good Chinese makers of keyboards now, but their mice designs are still weak. Maybe that will come next.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 05:50:08 pm
content: Our new mouse can read micro dots.Our new product ad cards are now available everywhere, with minimal fee.Find your next micro dot and win $1M, smaller winnings also available.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 06:10:23 pm
content: The image below shows what is for me the most annoying problem with Logitech mice (apart from their Logitech windows app).And Logitech engineers must be aware that the sticky plastic might eventually snag on the corner; they could have reduced the chance, by having a rounded corner. Maybe I don't take care of the mouse. It always has this problem eventually, after a couple of years. Plus, the plastic on the button area becomes shiny and worn over time, so its not as nice to use; and not something you'd want colleagues to use (if they are taking control of the PC briefly) after a few years! I can't see that I'd want to keep a Logitech-quality mouse forever without replacement parts.The underside sticky pads are available as spares from Logitech but priced so high (about $25 USD from memory, once shipping is added), that one may as well just buy a new mouse. I keep checking occasionally for a similar mouse but have not found a non-Logitech alternative so far.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 06:17:24 pm
content: Quote from: shabaz on August 06, 2024, 06:10:23 pmA weird thing with those Master mice (at least the 2) is if you clean the wheels with the IPA the rubber disintegrates. I've never seen that happen anywhere else. You can't get a new rubber tyre for the wheel, even from sources like AliExpress. Another problem is the button in the left hand rubbery skirt. A lot of people seem to have that jam, and the mouse won't work at all. Its a pretty useless button to me, so having it be a source of trouble is pretty annoying.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 06:48:20 pm
content: I'd forgotten about that, you're right. With the MX Master 3, they got rid of the rubber band entirely, it's not as nice to use the scrollwheel. The squidgy rubber-skirt thumb-button is ridiculous. The up/down buttons just above that are quite useful. The main reason I have stuck with the mouse is the physically large size (fits my hand better) and general shape is really comfortable. But I would switch brand in a shot as soon as I find a similarly comfortable mouse.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 07:12:08 pm
content: But don't forget, the subscription model will get hold of your personal data, along with the sign up...which is considered more valuable than I can understand, fully.At the very least, the lease arrangement is going to get your name and location, but they probably also get data on your system (brands and models), and maybe even have you submit to. 'Friendly Survey' !

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 07:56:35 pm
content: Razer mouse died, inside it was low grade china build and I was surprised given the high price that it was so junky. It's all about the marketing to gamers that they spend the money on. Not bug fixes either.Next, I got clones of the Razer from china and I'd swear it was some 8-bit MCU sweating bullets. Any ESD it crashed, and if you are moving your cursor while clicking at the same time, it completely misses that click. Actually many mice bungle that it seems. Even new switches did not help with the debounce.Next, I went with a SteelSeriesSenseimouse, not for gaming but it was on sale and fits my hand. It has cornball RGB LED's that light up the room.Well, to shut that shit off, the driver install download is 367MB and has cloud settings storage and some other gaming crap. Just overboard, silly gamer hype features that are quite outrageous. WTF such a huge fatware driver is needed for a mouse. They seem to correlate cursor position with your webbrowser, in their privacy policy.I haven't taken it apart to kill the LED's yet, it's on my list. But it does crash sometimes, sensitivity goes nutty.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 08:06:52 pm
content: Quote from: shabaz on August 06, 2024, 06:10:23 pmI have been using some Logitech travel mice for some time (M325 and M185) and they have been quite reliable. My hands have got used to the small size and now I find them fine to use. They don't seem to have any of that fancy rubberized coating that wears away or goes sticky.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2024, 08:04:08 am
content: Quote from: coppice on August 06, 2024, 06:17:24 pmSome rubber is like that. I had that with HP 54600 series oscilloscope that I unfortunately damaged while cleaning the 30 year old dirty knobs with IPA.Quote from: Zucca on August 06, 2024, 03:25:43 pmI'm guessing A4 Tech will have some nice mice, since they have been making them for 30 years now.But probably someone like HP or Lenovo who also has a gaming mice, they 100% have the capability to make something good.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2024, 10:45:17 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 07, 2024, 08:04:08 amWhich will be fine until they decide to adopt the same business model...

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2024, 11:03:43 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on August 07, 2024, 10:45:17 amYes, but in the same way, there were various workarounds, with the very over priced printer cartridge system.With much cheaper clone replacement cartridges, alternative ink-refilling methods, replacement clone-chips (to the silly counter chips inside some cartridges, to try and prevent them from being refilled), and other solutions.So, buying used older mice (possibly brand new, unused/unopened in sealed original box), before the possible introduction of subscription-mice. Repairing/maintaining the existing (non-subscription) mice, to keep them going.Typically (in some cases), it can just need a button (new/renovated switch/contact), to renew it.Open-hardware/source or cheaper, basic mice, without any need for subscriptions.Then there could be hacking (where legal/ok) or repurposing the subscription mouse's hardware, with your own MCU/electronics.You might (I don't know, if this will apply) even (like with YouTube subscriptions), be able to use a VPN, and pretend/subscribe from the cheapest possible country, to get the subscription costs, down to peanuts.Also, the EU (and perhaps other jurisdictions), could be persuaded, to outlaw** such activities.**But if they do, NOT like they have with the internet cookies, otherwise, every time you move the mouse a pop-up will say, do you want a subscription or not, and you have to constantly close those annoying pop-ups, like with the current internet situation. (I know there are possible solutions/work-arounds, with things that fix it, but I've not been happy enough with any solutions so far, to use them).

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2024, 11:44:28 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on August 07, 2024, 10:45:17 amI find it unlikely. First not everyone has been dropped on their head when they were two years old, like this CEO.Second, computer mouse is a dying peripheral, since everyone is buying laptops, and children cannot even type on a keyboard (that's not on a screen) anymore.There always be a company that would rather make money now and take away market share from these companies.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2024, 02:50:34 pm
content: I did a quick search in amazon and aliexpress.Plenty of alternatives, bye bye Logitech!

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2024, 03:01:20 pm
content: Oh-oh - lots of backlash now they are running away from the idea-Quote

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2024, 03:31:55 pm
content: QuoteAnd by that we mean "economically sustainable". Also known as "more profitable".

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2024, 05:06:39 pm
content: I got the feeling something is happening wrt. Logitech leadership (CEO and chairman of the board), so dug a bit.Found this, indicating that for a year now co-founder Daniel Borel has been calling on shareholders to change the chairman of the board; and two days agosent a letter to shareholders along the same lines.Rather interesting times ahead for that company, I'd say.

author: globoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2024, 05:16:56 pm
content: Looks like that particular trial balloon got popped. No subscription mouse :-)https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/6/24214857/logitech-subscription-mouse-decoder-podcast-hanneke-faber

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2024, 05:23:25 pm
content: Quote from: globoy on August 07, 2024, 05:16:56 pmUh I just posted that article a few posts up there ^^^

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2024, 05:45:41 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on August 07, 2024, 05:23:25 pmThey couldn't afford their monitors subscription this month, so it only shows things at barely minimal brightness, so they missed your post.