Against factory farming - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 11:42:41 pm
content: http://www.afro.com/sections/news/Washington/story.htm?storyid=73732http://www.sustainabletable.org/issues/factoryfarming/http://www.oprah.com/world/Health-Risks-That-Large-Factory-Farming-Leaves-BehindDo your own research on factory farming and you'll discover just how bad it is on the environment and public health. So is anyone else here against factory farming?

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 12:28:07 am
content: Let's get rid of factory farming...then we'll stipulate the law in such a way that those who voted to eradicate the practice won't receiveration cards.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 12:38:30 am
content: As illogical as it may sound, there would actually be more food to go around if there wasn't factory farming. You'll be surprised how much land it really takes to support a factory farm.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 12:50:15 am
content: I beg to differ. The notion immediately suggests that mass production in general is an inefficient process. Oprah appears to have compromised your reasoning faculties.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 12:56:13 am
content: NiHaoMike is right. There is actually no need for factory farming to support the current population of western countries. The primary purpose is to concentrate money with rich people. In Europe farmers are paid to not grow stuff on their land and by strange contradiction are even fined for producing too much.The USA has such a vastly lower ratio of population to farmland that the overproduction problem is even greater. However, the US government does a good job of hiding it because the likes of Monsanto and Cargill would be very upset if the truth ever got out.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 12:58:58 am
content: QuoteThe point is that it's a lot more efficient to just directly grow crops to make food instead of growing crops to supply a factory farm to supply food. You're bypassing a rather inefficient step.QuoteThe solution is to raise awareness.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 01:35:28 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on January 28, 2012, 11:42:41 pmOwn research? Research or gullible consumption of some popularised opinions from actors & poets?A blanket declaration that factory farming is bad is just as ignorant as this idea that all fossil fuel is bad. It's the emotive claptrap of those with vested interests. Research goes a little further than a collection of supportive argument, popular thinking in 2012 is more and more resembling the witch hunt mentality of the dark and middle ages.I'm not arguing for or against factory farming simply because it's a nonsense to suggest there is any single readily definable model. Same apples to fossil fuel with a lobbying left thwarting the possibility of upgrading existing plant to modern less polluting design in favour of idealism. Higher prices with none of the promised economic gain, not to much actual research is happening.FFS, if Oprah said breathing was bad, most of America's clueless would begin holding their collective breath. Oprah is the fodder of the mass clueless, reseach by tabloid television.An infomercial pathway to the one eyed research of the highest payer. Its the modern day equivalence of the medieval witch hunt, the difference being that the public can now be told what to think from the comfort of their sofa.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 01:38:57 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on January 29, 2012, 12:58:58 amThe solution is to eat less. I'm looking at your fat ass America!

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 01:41:28 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 29, 2012, 01:35:28 amCan you name a fossil fuel consumed in commericial quantities that is good?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 01:49:14 am
content: The solution is to stop eating meat. It takes ten times the resources to feed the same amount of people with a meat diet as it does to support those who are vegetarians. Please don't ask me to cite references for the figure. It would take a few days to dig it all up again.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 02:03:59 am
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 29, 2012, 01:41:28 amHow about coal! The burning of which has contributed to much of the comfort and good health of western populations.I am not for a moment suggesting current levels of consumption are desirable or sustainable in the longer term. But I've had a gutful of the current irresponsible, idealistic and expensive nonsense that is being put about.It's the stuff of the clueless and the hypocrite, the back to the caves rhetoric of Dr's Wives and the chronically clueless. Junk science that offers no real solution to anything.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 02:32:46 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on January 29, 2012, 12:58:58 amAn overwhelming majority of chicken, beef and pork sold at supermarkets are factory farmed. Milk and eggs--factory farmed. Salmon, tilapia, catfish, shrimp--factory farmed. Even fruits and vegetables--factory farmed and genetically enhanced.How about necessity of fertile land? Land nutrient replenishment? Time vested cultivating? Seasonal changes? Failed harvest? Economic snowballing?Japan has approximately 127 million citizens living on real estate the size of California.China is the #1 global producer of rice, most of which never leaves their country.The UK imports ~40% of its food supplies.The problem isn't factory farming...it'soverpopulation. We've only managed to grow our population this much because factory farming is an inherently efficient process. Furthermore, society has managed to advance so much because we didn't have to worry about the above mentioned agrarian hardships.A harsh reality of being able to sustain an overpopulated world? Absolutely.Inefficient? Absolutely not.Quote from: IanB on January 29, 2012, 12:56:13 amAnd how do you propose to sustain the "eastern" countries that provide the imported goods that sustain Westerners?

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 02:42:28 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on January 29, 2012, 01:49:14 amYou're an omnivore.

author: plunger
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 03:03:44 am
content: There is a reason food is cheap in USA, factory farms FTW

author: Mint.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 03:24:25 am
content: Mike, this thread is for electrical related topics not for food. Go find another forum to spam in. I am sure that it says EEVblog Electronics Community Forum at the top and not something related to food.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 03:30:08 am
content: Quote from: Mint. on January 29, 2012, 03:24:25 amGeneral Chat : This is where everyone hangs out and rants and chats about whatever electronics topics that don't fit into the other more specific categories on this forum.Occasional off-topic stuff is ok, but generally we like to keep it electronics related.Sorry mint but the topic is hardly spamming or in breach of forum etiquette. Don't like, don't read, just thumb through to the next topic of interest.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 04:24:24 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on January 29, 2012, 01:49:14 amunfortunately it is hard to bring up kids on a pure veggie diet. It requires well educated parents and high quality veggies to make certain they get the right mix to and not got get protein or vitamin deficiencies. My belief is to let kids decide for themselves if they want to be vegetarians. If parents try to force kids to a vegetarian diet - it can quite easily backfire once they turn teenagers.But the 10 times figure is a bit on the high side. :-) Growing vegetables is not easy on the environment either.But if you want to invest in the stock market - anything food and water related will be goldmines in the years to come due to over population.

author: Mint.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 05:27:40 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 29, 2012, 03:30:08 amYeah sorry I guess I was wrong.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 05:37:22 am
content: Quote from: kaz911 on January 29, 2012, 04:24:24 amlol, protein deficiency.I've been vegetarian all my life and I eat too much proteinThere's so many non-meat products that are full of protein from nut related foods to tofu, baked beans and vegetarian sausages.Even just having two sandwiches (4 slices of brown bread) has 1/2 of your daily protein.Interesting fact - Potatoes are a good source of iron, (more than spinach) and its the type of iron your body can easily absorb too.One potato is about 10% RDI

author: Mint.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 05:48:02 am
content: Maybe we should start having our meals in small pills that have all the nutrients. We just swallow them and we are full and don't want to eat. Then we have don't have any problems with factory farms and vegetable farms and fruit farms all all the other farms...

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 05:50:09 am
content: Quote from: Mint. on January 29, 2012, 05:48:02 amStarTrek food replicators, it's the only answer.

author: Mint.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 06:07:59 am
content: Quote from: Psi on January 29, 2012, 05:50:09 amThats right!

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 06:22:32 am
content: Quote from: Psi on January 29, 2012, 05:37:22 amyes but you do not seem to be in the "no smart category" - but there are lot of not so smart parents out there - being vegetarian does not automatically make you smart. :-)

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 08:06:05 am
content: Quote from: kaz911 on January 29, 2012, 06:22:32 amhehe yeah, If only

author: ronwoch
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 08:58:22 am
content: If you wish to not consume meat, by all means, that is your right. But please, if you try to touch my steak, you will understand WHY the second amendment exists. And how much I support it.For those who constantly talk about how bad modern farming practices are, well, have YOU ever tried to grow food? Not talking about the chia-herb garden on the window sill, but enough food to support your family? Or how about enough to sell to the local mom and pop grocery store so that all the folks who cannot or will not grow their own food can eat? Ever think about how much food it takes to feed a small town, let alone a large city? New York, or maybe Tokyo? Or London or Melbourne or any other?I'm not arguing that all modern farming practices are the best or even good. But I would suggest that like in ANY OTHER industry, things are done the way they are for a reason. Not ALWAYS a good or beneficial reason, but there IS a reason behind it.Just like many practices are common in EE because it is most efficient, or most profitable, or just produces the best quality product, so too can those reasons apply to farming.But so few people even think about growing their own food anymore, that it has become an easy whipping-post industry.For goodness sakes, one of the local dairies in WA state actually supplies MATRESSES for their cows, so the cow is more comfortable and produces better milk. Is the milk really better? Dunno. But my guess is it helps keep the Green Peace nuts at bay. No not all of them are nut-jobs. But the US government DOES classify Green Peace, or at least some of it's more radical branches, as a terrorist organization. What does THAT tell you?Sorry for the mini-rant, but I grew up in a farming town. I don't claim to be a farmer, most we ever did was a garden and some chickens. BUT it bothers me when people that can't tell you what a corn stalk looks like try to complain that farmers are doing their job wrong.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 09:03:57 am
content: Everyone, especially Yanks, should watch Food Inc:and also King of Corn.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 09:09:28 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on January 29, 2012, 01:49:14 amOr simply chicken instead of red meat would make a massive difference in the amount of resources required.Dave.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 09:23:10 am
content: It is not the factory farming itself that is bad it is the inherent cruelty to animals that creeps in when over worked and under paid hands become desensitized to the suffering of their charges, The problem gets even worse in ever bigger factory slaughter houses where the workers are allowed only seconds on each operation, The stunning is where the worst atrocities occur due to the operator not having enough time to aim the bolt correctly so the animal goes onto the next stage not properly stunned to start the bleeding out and butchering process's. I have actually been into slaughter houses on many occasions when I worked for a company that made and serviced food processing machinery. Both small and large ones, In the small ones throughput was far slower and each animal was handled with consideration by people who knew what they were doing, in the larger ones the most important criteria of operation appeared to be how little you could pay your workers and how many animals which were always referred to as units could be processed in a given time with a total disregard to animal suffering or hygiene, I don,t know how some of these plants got past the health inspectors, I have taken the guards of machinery to find it crawling with maggots.I am not a vegetarian but I will no longer eat processed meat or vegetables as I have seen the same in vegetable packing lines.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 09:24:31 am
content: I grow up (the majority of children in Greece) in an environment that offered us everything home made. We had our chickens, our goats, our wheat e.t.c. We only had to buy pork and beef (from local producers with free grazing farms). When I firsk drunk milk from a box I was 15 or something.My job requires constant contact with teenagers. I can see that city grown teens are double in size (muscular size) and taller than teens from the country. It's not normal. The food they consume...We are what we eat.Alexander.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 09:28:15 am
content: There is an urban legend (maybe true) that in a school (US I think) a teacher asked children to draw a picture with title "Where milk comes from". Many children draw a milk box.Alexander.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 09:48:51 am
content: I sometimes wonder, what percentage of people who eat meat could actually bring themselves to kill the animal, or put it through what goes on in factory farming.Definitely not all of them.Which kind of says something.

author: Mint.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 10:00:07 am
content: Quote from: ronwoch on January 29, 2012, 08:58:22 am100% Agree with you mate!

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 10:16:26 am
content: Greetings EEVBees:--When you want to prove something, you can hardly to better than to cite Oprah. Remember it was Oprah who first noticed, the selfless love that the man with one glove had for children. It was Oprah who predicted 20 years ago, that the next 20 years would see 20 million heterosexual deaths from AIDS. And, do not forget all those highly credible books she reviewed on her shows.--I would think the best way to promote food sources other that "Factory Food" would be to buy and eat the foods you like. If some of the people advocating for sudden changes in agricultural policy, and increased government control had their way the "Collective Farm" would soon obtain. Then it would be just a matter of selecting which version you prefer the Cuban or the Cambodian.--The solution, in my opinion, lies in less government control not more. If you do not like companies like Monsanto and Archer Daniels Midland, would it not make sense for the US Government to stop giving them billions of taxpayer dollars for the Ethanol Ruse."I'll have the Alfalfa sandwich, and the smashed yeast"Woody Allen 1935 -Best RegardsClear Ether

author: siliconmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 12:56:04 pm
content: the worst thing that happened was myxomatosis.rabbit meat is nearly an organic product, freerange, low in fat and cholesterol.they live a very happy life except for the infection.they used to be plentiful(well they breed like rabbits).a really valuable food source.

author: Kilroy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 05:34:05 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on January 29, 2012, 09:48:51 amDefinitely not most of them.QuoteIt sure does. It says that when it comes to survival, folks have the stomach for consumption but not for preparation.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 05:42:47 pm
content: I actually think that a lot of people would be prepared to kill an animal and prepare it themselves, if they absolutely had to.But of course, mostly people don't need or choose to. I still think they would, though.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 05:49:43 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on January 29, 2012, 09:48:51 amSurely the indigenous population of your country, and the beef and lamb export industry which contributes a significant portion of NZ's continuing prosperity would have a few words to say as well.Rewind the clock to a desensitized late 1800's society where food was neither as abundant nor readily available as it is today, then ask yourself the same question. Modern advancements of civilization have simply made life easy enough for vegetarians alike to disregard the biological fact that we're an omnivorous species--endowed with canines and a digestive system evolved to process a combination of both plants and meat.Admittedly, my ethnic roots are indigenous toa wee little island half way across the world in the middle of the Pacific, where I grew up (I'm sure saturation can attest to just how ass-backwards it can be there); living off the land isn't a purely academic concept in my book, and the hardships of an agrarian life are all too familiar.P.S. Rumor has it that good steak in India is about as common as good beer in Saudi...despite the fact that India's population of purpose-bred beasts of burden is comparable to the population of the entire US.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 06:17:20 pm
content: Greetings EEVBees:--The people who want to outlaw "Factory Farming" seem to be exactly the same people who want the government to control every other aspect of life.--If you thought proselytizing Vegetarians were a PITA, and if you thought proselytizing Vegans were a PITA, and if you thought proselytizing PITA members were a PITA, then meet the Jainists. The Jainists of India hold the undisputed record for sanctimonious finger waging and holier than thou breast beating. Not only are the strict adherents forbidden all meat, eggs, milk etc. but they are also forbidden to eat root vegetables and seeds. The holiest of this sect prefers to eat cooked vegetables that they obtain from infidels who have taken the sin of killing the hapless veggies themselves."I'll have the Alfalfa sandwich, and the smashed yeast"Woody Allen 1935 -Best RegardsClear Ether

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 06:42:27 pm
content: Do we really need more personal bashing and racism here SgtRock? You managed to do all in one sentence.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 06:54:36 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on January 29, 2012, 06:42:27 pmHis prose is agentless, with no reference to race whatsoever.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 07:14:14 pm
content: Quote from: SgtRock on January 29, 2012, 06:17:20 pmThis a backhanded insult towards me, a vegetarian, and a racist comment against the Jains, of which I know a few. I do not come here to see ignorant, racist, and inflammatory trolling. I thought this was a place to discuss things honestly and intelligently. Some people still think this is a place for personal vendettas and agendas. Subtle compared to some other trolling? Yes, but still trolling, or poorly considered wording. I would like to believe the latter but the history here indicates otherwise.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 07:22:48 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on January 29, 2012, 07:14:14 pmSorry to butt in slightly, but isn't that a religion, not a race?Why shouldn't someone be able to rubbish another's religion? It is a personal preference, after all. You just sound like a PC-brigade pansy to be honest.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 07:31:44 pm
content: hmm, more personal attacks to disprove my assertion that personal attacks are going on.Yes Jainism is a religion of sorts, more of a philosophy of life. If you ask a Jain, he will not call it a religion.I apologize the the rest of the forum for getting involved here and continuing the off topic branch. I certainly must be a pansy to do so.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 07:32:21 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on January 29, 2012, 07:14:14 pmThe comment was directed at an identifiable group, not an individual; that you take personal insult to sarcastic criticism is beyond the scope of this discussion. As far as I can discern, SgtRock has contributed an honest and subjectively humorous personal opinion which happens to be in direct contrast to your personal views.For the sake of correctness, I will point outyour ignoranceof the fact that Jainism is a religious sect, not some racial identity.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 07:40:06 pm
content: I guess I just don't have an appreciation for the humor of SgtRock. My fault in that case. Sorry.And yes I knew that Jainism is considered a religious sect. I lived next door to a Jain family for 20 years and know what their perception is of their beliefs too.Sometimes my skin is too thin which can be a very bad thing to have on the interwebs.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 07:58:38 pm
content: I have just reviewed many posts made by SgtRock. I was mistaken in his tone in the message I was criticizing. I apologize for my outburst and stupidity. SgtRock is obviously not a racist and has a sense of humour, drier than I realized. Again, my apologies.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 08:10:14 pm
content: Dear Lightages:Your apology is accepted and, I offer mine for any offense I may have unwittingly caused. Please see below the post I was just about to post before your latest.--Please do not take personal offense, when none is intended. Notice I said "proselytizing" Vegans, Vegetarians, and PITA members. I have known quite a few Hindu's (of many shades of skin tone) over the years, and have found them to be just as literate, civilized, and cultured as the people I grew up among, and in many cases more so. They were inventing zero and counting infinities, when my ancestors were running around naked with their faces painted blue. I am sure that the Jainist practice of Ahimsa will allow for a little gentle finger poking at the riding of the high horse. Next time I will only refer to American Fundamentalist TV Preachers as being sanctimonious finger waggers and rattlesnake juggling sects as holier than thou breast beaters. That way I should be safe. And indeed I know that if ever I was starving to death, and was within inches of a box of chicken mcnuggets, and was discovered by a wandering Jainist Holy Man, he would no doubt immediately take off and try to borrow some already cooked vegetables from a sinner."I'll have the Alfalfa sandwich, and the smashed yeast"Woody Allen 1935 -Best RegardsClear Ether

author: nessatse
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 08:16:59 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on January 29, 2012, 09:23:10 amI agree totally. I am not a vegetarian either, but watching movies like Food Inc. has given me plenty to think about. I would urge anyone concerned with the ethical treatment of animals to watch 'Earthlings' as wellwww.earthlings.com. Guaranteed to make you think

author: siliconmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 09:25:43 pm
content: i know i'm moving slightly off target here but why stop at certain species for consumption.guinea pigs,cats,dogs and spiders are all eaten in certain countries.whats the difference.not that i'd eat them.a few miles from me a person found an electronic identity chip in her chicken fried rice from the local chinese takeaway.the data was still readable the meat came from a ginger tom named "ging" whoose owner had recently passed away.what a turn up.not the way i wanna eat pussy...meh

author: ronwoch
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 09:33:45 pm
content: ^^ Interesting that many of (what I consider) legitimate complaints stem from the processing of food, not necessarily the growing of it. That is, people object to the way the animals are treated at slaughter, how the (aforementioned) meat and vegetable processing plants handle food, etc. I know that in some areas these overlap with the actuall farming industry, and in other areas they are seperate industries. Which I think should be kept in mind. I know where I grew up, the food is all shipped from the farms to seperate processing plants. The farmer has little say in how it is handled at that point, only who handles it.How many people could kill the animal they eat? I can only speak for myself, and say that I can. Not everyone though. I grew up hunting, and was taught to only kill what I need, as humanely as possible. Obviously this does not always happen in 'industrialized' settings.Either way, I guess my babbling boils down to this:That growing food vs. processing food are in general two very different topics.Just something I have noticed.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 09:47:08 pm
content: There are still some parts of the world where they eat people. Just because they do so does that mean we should open slaughter plants for humans and ship them, I don't think so. The same goes for other animals that are eaten by some nationalities,We should not be sending horses or dogs or cats or Guinea pigs and a long list of others to meat packing plants.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 09:59:34 pm
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 29, 2012, 05:49:43 pmYeah, but now, because we are selfish bastards, we have 7 billion people to feed. If everyone wants that modern advanced civilisation and their steak, there is simply no future for our kids, this planet is rooted.Dave.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 10:06:27 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on January 29, 2012, 09:48:51 amI wonder how many people who live under a roof would be prepared to climb up the structure to build it. I wonder how many people who use an elevator would be prepared to enter the shaft to service it. I wonder how many people who fly in aircraft would be prepared to do their own jet service?The argument above is emotive garbage, used by criminals like PETA to legitimise their attempts to force their thinking upon others.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 10:44:05 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on January 29, 2012, 07:14:14 pmIt's just more of the endless supply of mostly indecipherable gibberish that said troll chooses to deposit in threads, various. I'd doubt it was an insult directly aimed at you, it's sole purpose is to gain attention or notice.These pieces of trailer park prose and kindergarten name calling seldom, if ever, contribute anything to the threads, their purpose is to hijack threads and gain attention to someone unable to correspond in a sane and reasonable. I added this guy to my ignore list long ago and thankfully now just see the fallout, missing the bulk of the nonsense.The vegan thing is a personal choice. Not one I subscribe to, but a decision that can come about from an entirely rational set of decisions. I respect your right to choose. Sadly there are organisations out there attempting to force such that choice upon the entire population, the fallout being that sane vegans who make a personal choice are often mistaken with those radical nutjobs.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 10:56:20 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 29, 2012, 09:59:34 pmThe population growth is not entirely the result of selfishness. I don't subscribe to this negative view that suggest we all need to resort to some more primitive way of living for the population to survive. If the western world suffers from grief and overproduction and the third world suffers want and need surely a lot more can be done to redress the balance.Our political and financial systems facilitate the greed of the individual and ignore the need of community, good leadership could massively redress the balance, nationally and internationally.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 11:30:18 pm
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 29, 2012, 05:49:43 pmI'm sorry, please don't consider this a personal attack but that is miss-information.It is far from a scientific fact that humans are designed to be an omnivorous species. There is numerous evidence that does not fit that statement.At best, it's still an issue that's being debated.Just last month i heard a story from a friend, someone they know had gone to the doctor with, i think it was pancreatic cancer.A while later he was talking with someone else who said a Vegetarian diet should help him live longer. Categorizing it as nonsense he dismissed it, but upon visiting his doctor some time later he casually mentioned that someone had even told him to go vegetarian. The doctor told him that yes, that should give him more time. He was quite upset at that and asked the doctor why he didn't tell him this before. The doctor just said, 'Well, would you do it?'.Most doctors do know about this stuff, they just don't offer the information unless you ask. Probably afraid of being labeled i guess.Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 29, 2012, 10:06:27 pmI'm sure most people would be fine doing that stuff if they had to, and had appropriate training.I just have an issue with people who could never bring themselves to kill an animal for ethical reasons and yet buy meat from the supermarket and choose to ignore where it comes from. It's of course their choice to make, but they're clearly deluding themselves in the worst possible way.I quite like the thought experiment of, how the world would change if the job of killing the animal was like jury duty for those that want to eat meat.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 11:38:29 pm
content: Greetings EEVBees:--Notice once again, that UV is replying and commenting on a post that he admits he has never read. He is still playing blind mans bluff, with the lights out, wearing boxing gloves, and cotton in his ears, and still hoping he has successfully guessed what it was that was said. He needs a double secret ignore button. He must be fit to be tied reading that it all worked out and that there are no hard feelings. Stay tuned."In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king"Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus1466 - 1536Best RegardsClear Ether

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 11:51:20 pm
content: Yeah, the thread was going just fine before then.There was even a disagreement that ended in both sides apologizing, which was great.But UV posts are bringing the quality of this thread down, which is sad.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 12:12:33 am
content: Quote from: Psi on January 29, 2012, 11:51:20 pmSome said similar things about WWII, didn't make that a correct assertion either!QuoteAn entirely pointless disagreement brought about by yet more of the routine trailer park rhetoric!QuoteDon't like? Then you know your options!I can cope with opinions that differ from my own, what is your excuse? If you cannot cope with diverse viewpoints then that is your personal issue to resolve, not an obligation of mine!

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 12:15:10 am
content: Quote from: Psi on January 29, 2012, 11:30:18 pmI see it as nothing more than friendly discourse intended to rouse thought...nothing more.Designed is definitely not the proper word, hence why I used the word evolved. Consider the existence of relevant vestigial components of human anatomy such as the appendix and wisdom teeth. Consider the necessity of B12 in human diet and the fact it does not naturally occur in plants.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 12:28:42 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 30, 2012, 12:15:10 amYes, "evolved" is a better word, thanks.I meant designed by evolution, or the universe or whatever.Vegetables can have some B12, if they are grown naturally. The pesticides/herbicides used in farm production normally kill all the micro-organisms responsible for B12 in vegetables.I'm also not so sure about the whole B12 issue, i know a couple of people who are raw foodists. They're not dead and don't have any apparent B12 issues.I suspect the current understanding of B12 and how it works isn't quite complete. But that's just my opinion.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 12:49:21 am
content: Dear Psi:-You better be careful what you say. You must by now be getting close to being put on UV's voluminous "people that ignore what I demand list". For some fun try addressing a comment to me such as. "Up until now I have defended you. But your recent comments about the stupidity of the Australians, is going too far" You see, in revenge I did poke a little gentle fun at PeterG who complains about the American pronunciation of solder. I gave him the old "Right Might, Bites a Pike inee Eye" elbow, all in good fun."He was born ignorant, and has been losing ground ever since."Fred Allen 1894 1956Best RegardsClear Ether

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 12:53:47 am
content: I'll just leave this here

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 01:08:13 am
content: Quote from: 8086 on January 30, 2012, 12:53:47 amLMFAO!!

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 01:37:23 am
content: Dear 8086:--After years of sampling British and American humor in writings, in movies and on TV, my conclusion is that, on average, the Brits are about twice as funny and heaps more subtle, but that is just on average, mind you. I think it is the subtlety that does it. It builds a pause into the gag, where the target has to think for a moment. And to think the BBC allowed the feminists to ban Benny Hill, what morons. While a whole generation of Brits have grown up not knowing who he is, we Yanks, watching late night cable, have been laughing our bums off. It takes a lot of skill to be broad and subtle at the same time. I am not terribly familiar with Australian humor, but if Rolf Harris is any example, I am convinced. I again include here a link to Rolf Harris as Jake the Peg, ROFLMAO--An Australian asks an American; "Just what exactly are cheerleaders?" The Yank explains; "They root for the sports teams", The Ozzie says, Right, we've got those as well but we use a shorter word.""Evabody gotta be someplace."Jackie Mason 1936 -Best RegardsClear Ether

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 02:01:40 am
content: To make it clear, phasing out factory farming will not eliminate meat. It will increase the prices on animal products, but the price of other foods would go down dramatically, so the overall price of food would still go down. Considering that factory farmed food is low quality (high in fat/cholesterol, pesticides, antibiotics, etc.), it would only be a good thing as long as the transition is gradual.For those who find a purely vegetarian diet too restrictive, look up flexitarian.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 03:08:49 am
content: Actually I am a vegetarian, but I also eat fish. The majority of my food comes from the ground. I am a vegetarian because it is healthier, cheaper, and impacts the earth and other people's lives less than eating meat. We could feed many more people on this earth if we all ate less meat, much less. Everyone would be healthier too with a vegetarian or more like a flexitarian diet, and with the change in attitude towards what is thought of as food. Factory farming is one of the ways to just increase the yield of cheap flabby meat for the masses who can't get enough of McDonalds.When I have tried to point out to people that what they are eating is actually dead cow, I have been told to shut up, they don't want to hear that steak is a piece of a dead animal. As long as people equate steak, hamburgers, pork sausage and chicken nuggets as some kind of synthetic non-livingl glob of something that tastes good, factory farming will have a hard time keeping up with the demand. When people actually have to go kill their own animals for food, the ratio of meat in the diet is much much less because the people who actually live off of the animals they raise actually know the real cost in work, land, and energy for every animal they kill.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 04:10:32 am
content: Quote from: Psi on January 30, 2012, 12:28:42 amThe human body tends to adopt to what it eats and modify itself to make it easier. Like the Japanese have a special enzyme in their gut that can digest seaweed better. No other "race" have that enzyme. But that possibly takes a few generations to get a new enzyme developing :-) (http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/04/sushi-guts/)And about meat and the human evolution:http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html:-)

author: siliconmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 08:55:12 am
content: here in wales a lot of seaweed gets eaten " Laverbread" it's called.it's cooked mind. i don't know if cooking breaks down the enzyme you mentioned.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 09:20:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 29, 2012, 09:09:28 amThis might make any one think twice about eating chickens:http://www.naturalnews.com/032659_arsenic_chicken.htmlThey put arsenic into chicken food to make them grow quicker, the FDA used to argue that the arsenic was excreted by the chickens although they now admit not all of it is, but the chicken manure is turned into cattle feed so cows then eat the remaining arsenic then that is turned into hamburgers. Another interesting fact about factory produced food, mechanically recovered meat is made using the whole animal feathers beak guts and all in the case of chicken and hoof hide guts etc for cows, there is then so much bacteria in the meat that it is treated with ammonia, the resultant goo has no color and tastes disgusting so color and flavorings are added, very often these days they will use flavorings and color from vegetable origins just so the marketing people can put no artificial color or flavorings are used in this product you will also see labels stating 100% pure beef or chicken what they mean is 100% of the chicken or cow lock stock and barrel.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 10:34:55 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on January 30, 2012, 09:20:11 amWho are they? They the enemy of crackpot video producers? Gullibility index of 101. The FDA just turned a blind eye did they? and it's been going on for years? Cattle hide Through your McBulge Burger. Sorry, but I call utter garbage and absolute exaggeration on that lot.

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 10:51:35 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on January 30, 2012, 03:08:49 amVegetarians don't eat fish...or any other animal flesh for that matter.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 11:45:16 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on January 30, 2012, 03:08:49 amDo they? Which "people"? Children?I don't know a single adult that doesn't know that meat was once part of a living animal.What is this argument that keeps coming back about people not killing their own food? We don't have to, that's why we don't. If it was necessary, a lot more people would do it.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 12:09:57 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 30, 2012, 10:34:55 amPfizer though a division called Alpharm who make a supplement to be milled into chicken feed. Read this link:http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=13793945#.TyaIUMXsQsc

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 01:14:11 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on January 30, 2012, 12:09:57 pmyeah yeah and processed cheese is made of broken glass and razor blades. Sorry I still don't buy it. There is some horrid crud in mass produced food, and yes hygiene has taken a back seat in SOME instances. But I don't buy this guff about all food being poisoned regardless of it's at times dubious nutritional value.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 03:00:32 pm
content: Greetings EEVBees:--I love this forum. Peculiar assertions come out of the woodwork here and scurry around, ideas and contentions you rarely see by light of day. Vegetarians, I love em, more roast beef for me. But, then there are their fanatical cousins the Vegetalitarians. The more rope you give a Vegetalitarian the more likely it is that he will hoist himself by his own petard. Beans being what they are to methane production. Some of the unlikely and scabrous evacuations made in this thread are simply astounding in their preposterousness. No, the food companies are not grinding up chicken beaks and putting them into your food. That is a completely dishonest assertion. Next the Vegetalitarians will be saying that, if I fertilize my alfalfa fields with manure, and then feed the hay to my cattle, that somehow, I am putting Cow Sh*t in your hamburger. Arrrg. Do not pee on that orange tree young man, think of what the Vegetalitarians will say. Possibly protein deficiency has addled their brains. Soon we will be hearing the "meat eaters are unclean and smell bad" meme, in addition to being greedy pigs who do not care about the planet. Sanctimony abounds, Feh. If you are a consumer of meat, thank what ever Gods there be that you are not the minority, for it seems unlikely that you would receive the same tolerance that you afford them.--They, the Vegetalitarians claim to want cheaper and more plentiful food for everyone (plant based food, that is). But, if you bioengineer Golden Rice, so that children who have little to eat but rice, will not go blind, you will find your facilities infested with felafel sucking yahoos, accompanied by a few of the slightly more aggressive quiche eating yahoos, screaming "Frankenfood" and trying to burn your laboratory down."I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams."Hamlet, scene ii.Best RegardsClear Ether

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 03:07:12 pm
content: I would rather live in a world where we worry about the impacts of our overly abundant food and its treatment than a world where we the milk from the single family goat is the richest sustenance provided to my children.Vegetarinism and veganism is a luxury/problem of the 1st world.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 04:24:55 pm
content: My older sister used to work as a chemist for BP Nutrition she was in charge of the lab that analysed the constituents and chemicals going into animal feeds and the strengths thereof before and after they went into the premixes which were then shipped to feed mills all over Europe. This was in the late 70's before she went to work for the university of Cambridge.Many of the compounds were mixed with methyl cellulose as a bulking agent so that feed mills can handle them safely, In about 1978 a load of methyl cellulose came in and was tested from one sack only the mix was made up and dispatched to Holland where it went into pig and calf feed. The only problem was most of the methyl cellulose was from a shipment that was destined for wallpaper paste, it was loaded with mercury salts as an anti fungicide, the problem came to light when pigs and calves started to die and others were being born with gross deformities. The whole issue was hushed up.One of the main things that they were premixing at that plant was a pig feed additive that was loaded with zinc bacitracin a compound which acts as an antibiotic it is still being used for that purpose. Please read this link.http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/content/44/6/725.fullYou will see from this that Zinc bacitracin is nephrotoxic.So if any one wants to dis believe that nasty chemicals are being added to food they can But I know that it is and I dont have to get my information fro any wacko web sites.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 04:55:34 pm
content: Dear G7PSK:--I guess you did not read my last post. I am saying that this post made by you:"Another interesting fact about factory produced food, mechanically recovered meat is made using the whole animal feathers beak guts and all in the case of chicken and hoof hide guts etc for cows ..."--Is a dishonest assertion. I will allow that perhaps you are repeating something someone else said and that you believe. So indeed perhaps you are not deliberately lying, but passing on horrible lies, that originated somewhere else. So if you wish to retain any credibility whatsoever on this forum, you will need to either prove or retract this assertion.Please be specific. Exactly which food companies put this stuff in human food. Provide us with a link to the original information. If you do not, I am afraid that people will draw some rather obvious conclusions. And I will regard your assertions as having about the same credibility and character of provenance as The Protocols of The Elders of Zion, and as having intentions just as laudable."I'll have the Alfalfa sandwich, and the smashed yeast"Woody Allen 1935 -Best RegardsClear Ether

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 05:53:35 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on January 30, 2012, 04:24:55 pmAmongst other things nephrotoxic: aspirin, ibuprofen, polyethylene glycol--these are all OTCs consumed in direct quantities, not residual. Alcohol is hepatotoxic; doesn't seem to stop very many people from becoming alcoholics. How many recorded deaths have been attributed to nephrotoxic poisoning via consumption of bacon again?Furthermore, the problem you've pointed out (if it is in fact a serious problem) is not in factory farming but infarm feed. What makes you so confident that smaller family-run farms that provide for their smaller communities won't acquire feed from "contaminated" sources? Can you expect random sample testing from such a small operation?

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 06:39:44 pm
content: If they buy feed from the feed merchant that are manufactured by the big compouders it will be same stuff, It amazes me that so many have forgotten BSE which was caused directly by feed compounders having total disregard to public health also look how long it took to get lead out of petrol due car manufacturers not wanting to spend the money on making cars that would run on lead free. It was not until a big enough fuss was made that and laws had to be in place to put a stop to it.I live in the country, In fact the Townsend estate is at the bottom of our garden (that is Lord Townsend of Turnip Townsend fame, The guy who started crop rotation in the UK) I see farming operations at first hand both good and bad practice is on view in the area.There are some massive chicken operations within a couple of miles of here one is free range layers the other is a number of huge sheds with no day light used for 12 week broilers one lot get fed grain the other gets milled feed which will contain amongst other things recycled chicken manure and cow manure. but that is better than pigs in China which get fed on human sewage. A few years ago there was a case of dogs and cats dying from eating pet food which had so called supplements from China added to it, What was being added was urea formaldehyde which increased the apparent protein content. There was another case not long ago where they were doing the same with baby milk.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 07:22:42 pm
content: Quote from: Precisiontools on January 30, 2012, 10:51:35 amDid I need to put "but" in bold and capitols?I think it is obvious from this thread so far that the topic is quite polarizing. As usual, with any contentious subject, the real truth lies in the middle. Eat less meat, stop putting shit in food, and eat less (if you have a typical 1st world diet). Can anybody rationally disagree with this?

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 09:06:19 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on January 30, 2012, 07:22:42 pmExactly! I totally agree eat less eat lees meat stop all the crap additives that are only there to make more money, Basically stop being greedy and grasping gluttons.

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 09:19:00 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on January 30, 2012, 07:22:42 pmNo you don't. What you need to say is that you don't eat red meat, chicken or other game, but sometimes you eat fish. That's still a good thing, but you aint no vegetarian.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 09:31:06 pm
content: I dare any of you to watch this video just before dinner. You may not agree with the sentiments of the people who made it I don't completely. But there is no faking here it is a compilation of all that is bad in farming and that should be stopped. It is made mostly from video taken in the US and possibly the far east for some of it. Just click on the link if you think you are brave enough.http://www.meatvideo.com/

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 09:46:02 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on January 30, 2012, 09:31:06 pmIf you knew of therealconditions that garment factory workers live and work in, would you stop wearing clothes?

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 10:04:00 pm
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 30, 2012, 09:46:02 pmWherever possible I buy clothes and for that matter everything else, made in Britain. When you buy cheap from abroad you not only import cheap goods you also export wealth and jobs. A lot of electronic goods are made with the sweat labor of children I have read that some Asus workers have even committed suicide due to working conditions, so I wont buy Asus. Unfortunately I could not source a British made computer I had to make do with an Intel board made in Canada, I dont hold that against the Canadians though, Thats at the door of the British government and past policies. The damm things were invented here.

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 10:06:48 pm
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 30, 2012, 09:46:02 pmMy guess is that you haven't watched any of the videos posted in this thread...are you really comparing the treatment of the animals in these videos to how sweatshop people are treated? Yes, poor people get the rough end of the stick in some countries, but its nothing like the wholesale holocaust going on for animals every second, every minute, every hour, of every day.Grow a set and watch the videos...all the way through.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 10:23:48 pm
content: Quote from: Precisiontools on January 30, 2012, 10:06:48 pmFor the record, I've seen every video posted in this thread quite some time ago. My buddy and I actually watched that meat video while eating Porterhouses for shits and grins.To be frank, I really don't care how those animals were killed. I've personally slaughtered more than a few chicken, pig, deer and cow myself. My grandfather used to take me out to the chicken coop when I was about 5; he had me catch the hen for dinner then snap its neck to kill. There's hardly a more satisfying feeling than harvesting fresh venison backstrap in the field after placing an arrow square through a deer's heart and tracking the blood trail. I also slaughtered my first pig for fiesta roast before I was a teen by stabbing a chef knife through its throat to collect blood while 4 men held the pig down during its last minutes of struggle. The best sashimi you'll ever eat is right after the tuna has been caught, then filleted on the boat while it's still alive. Perks of being on top of the food chain.P.S. Perhaps I might actually take the time to find some old pics of the condo for your viewing pleasure.

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 10:51:50 pm
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 30, 2012, 10:23:48 pmYou have failed to answer the question, you have avoided it with provocative little stories which by the way, I find acceptable because it would appear that the animals were free or well treated before they crossed paths with you. The question is; do you find it acceptable that animals are treated poorly before they are killed? The farming practices here are the issue. Yes we are at the top of the food chain...but do we need to be so brutal to the other species we share the planet with?

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 11:35:43 pm
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 30, 2012, 11:07:01 pm...then I hope you choke on one of you cheap arse cans of spam...

author: Mint.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2012, 12:17:23 am
content: Guys seriously not point arguing about this topic. Who wants to buy free range meat and can afford it do so. Who can't buy factory farm meat. Big deal seriously.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2012, 03:26:20 pm
content: Bestiality is bestiality any way you put there is no excuse for some of the treatment handed out to farm animals even if you consider them as just food, you should respect your food and not mess with it. I wonder if some people on this site are playing devils advocate I hope so anyway if not they are not very nice .As for the one that do not believe that there are nasty things in the factory produced food, well they obviously have not heard of Erin Brockovich.

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2012, 03:33:35 pm
content: Bestiality means sex with animals. Factory farming is not bestiality.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2012, 04:08:50 pm
content: Quote from: Time on January 31, 2012, 03:33:35 pmActually it is a mass noun meaning savagely cruel or depraved behavior it can also mean sex with animals that is given as a secondary meaning in the Oxford dictionary, But I understand some of that also goes on in factory farming.Factory farming itself is not bestial but the behavior of some of the people employed therein most certainly is.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2012, 05:57:53 pm
content: if there is one vegetarian restaurant in my place, i will go there frequently. i went to eat vegetarian food during my study, its magic and it taste really good... this is how we kill animal for food:1) cut the throat with sharp knife to minimize pain to the animal.2) cut the throat until breathing line/pipe? and main artery is cut off to drain all the blood and inhibit oxigen3) the blood is all source of contamination in the body, and to stop breathing and oxigen to the brain to diminish processing of the pain.4) in the end, you get a fresh and healthier meat. with minimized torture to the animal.

author: Noize
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2012, 06:43:46 pm
content: ^

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2012, 06:48:20 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on January 31, 2012, 05:57:53 pm3) Complete nonsense.4) Minimize torture?? More nonsense.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2012, 08:29:00 pm
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 31, 2012, 06:48:20 pm3)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodtransporting waste incl urea (read to the end), you drink/consume blood, you drink your own (or animal) urine.4)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapitationgoto Painlessness section. do you wonder why surgery knife is so sharp, try to cut your hand with one then you'll know why its painless.swallow your ignorance and try to gather more facts. dont learn ee too much my friend

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2012, 11:38:30 pm
content: Ifyouhad to be killed, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be saying"hm.. I'll have someone cut my throat, that sounds like a peaceful way to go".Seriously, you'd be alive and conscious for some seconds, until your brain stops functioning.And feeling a gaping hole in your neck with blood pumping out isn't going to be peaceful, it will create an intense feeling of panic until the brain starts to die.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2012, 11:46:45 pm
content: Mech, if I'm not mistaken, those are the law of Sharia when slaughtering an animal for consumption isn't it ?Again, I'm not sure, is it forbidden to consume them if they were not done using those methods ?PS : Sharia or Syariah = Islamic law & regulation

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2012, 01:56:03 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on January 31, 2012, 08:29:00 pmEvidently, the pics I've posted above weren't enough toclueyou in to the fact that when it comes to slaughtering animals, I've done a bit more than merely talk the talk. So allow me to point out your ignorance, since it's quite obvious that you've cited the end-all-say-all Wikipedia without even a hint of what you're talking about:Concerning contamination:1) If you consume a tainted animal, "contaminated blood" is theabsolute leastof your worries. Evidently, you've never heard of concepts like cooking, red meat, or the abundance of capillaries in all mammalian species.2) There's a popular Filipino dish calledpinapaitan(pronounced pee-nah'-pah-ee'-tan) which usesCOW PISSas a necessary broth ingredient. I'm certain there are other Southeast Asian countries that use animal piss in some form or fashion in their local dishes. Grow a pair and try it.3) A Chamorro (my ethnic background) favorite is a dish calledfritada(pronounced frih-taw'-dah), which is a stew made from pig blood; Filipinos call the same dish dinuguan, and the Spanish have a similar dish too although I don't know what they call it.4) Surely, someone from Malaysia has heard of cobra's blood...or has your vegetarian diet made you too soft to dabble in local tradition?Concerning torture minimization:Your comment of slitting an animal's throat to achieve a swift death is about as ignorant as breaking toes to run faster.1) Ever heard the old saying, "running around like a headless chicken"? Well, guess where it comes from? Slit a chicken's throat and see what happens; make sure you bring a few towels and have about 10-15 minutes to spare. There's a reason why we kill chickens by snapping its neck.2) Slit a pig's throat and see what happens. Again, you'll need a few towels, 10-15 minutes, and a handful of fit grown men to hold it down because that hog is going to struggle like it's never struggled before. If you want to collect its blood, a sharpened 8 inch blade into the throat targeting its major artery is the swiftest bleed out and yields less than 5 minutes of struggle. If you've punctured its throat and the pig starts coughing out blood during its struggle, you've done fucked up. If you don't care about collecting blood, a small caliber bullet (.22 magnum typically) in the head is the quickest.3) Slit a cow's throat and you'll probably end up in a hospital. Slit a bull's throat and you'll probably end up dead.4) A large caliber bullet or arrow through the heart is the best way to kill deer, which minimizes adrenaline from affecting the meat, leaves a solid blood trail to track as it flees, and makes for a quick death.So, what exactly was I swallowing again?? It might come to you as a surprise that some of us on this forum have diverse backgrounds that extend far beyond the typical electronics subject matter. For the record, EE and hunting aren't my only interests; I also dabble in firearms, high-security locks (in particular, Medeco, Mul-T-Lock and Abloy), andautocross.

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2012, 02:42:29 am
content: The fastest and least painful death is severe brain damage via hydraulic shock, such as a bullet or large rivet from a gun into the upper part of the brain. People who state arrow to the heart or cutting throats are idiots. Go look up human throat slittings on liveleak.com, see how "painless" it is.People who complain about animals being killed for food are fucking pussies. Do you think when lions hunt zebras and rip them apart slowly so they can survive in the wild think about most humane way to kill the prey? We are predators, we kill to eat. We try to make it less painful for the animal, but if you need blood for cooking, the animal has to be killed slower. Have any of you fagitarians seen a human shot in the abdomen with a .50 cal round during a firefight? We do this for resources, not for immediate survival, and you are complaining about animals. Do you know why fuel is so cheap in USA? Because you shred humans worldwide with automatic high caliber ammo so you can take over oil deposits in their countries. And you are bitching about industrial farming.Another issue: in industrial farming if there is a decease breakout, losses can be recovered within months. If you have a farm and all of your livestock dies you are fucked. You have nothing to sell and nothing to eat.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2012, 02:54:08 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on February 01, 2012, 02:42:29 amJust in case you missed my remark:Quote from: slateraptor on February 01, 2012, 01:56:03 am...as if venison weren't gamey enough. First of all, fat chance you're getting into point-blank range of any wild deer, let alone drop it in one shot without a chase. Secondly, bullet in the head of a deer does 2 things: 1) fucks up your meat, and 2) fucks up your trophy.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2012, 03:53:09 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on February 01, 2012, 02:42:29 amThere is a very important distinction between humans and animals.We're intelligent enough to know it's wrong to cause suffering, animals aren't.We can't justify suffering by pointing to animals inflicting it and saying "see, it's totally acceptable"

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2012, 04:20:03 am
content: Quote from: Psi on February 01, 2012, 03:53:09 amThe question of "wrong" is moot and belongs in the philosophical domain.Besides pointing out valid (albeit tangential) observations, it's just Wartex raging...as usual.

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2012, 05:30:43 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on February 01, 2012, 02:54:08 amJust in case you didn't get my comment: I was talking about slow vs fast death. I also said that if you want to preserve meat/blood/etc you need to kill slower, like slitting a throat or heart injury like you said with an arrow. I wasn't countering your argument.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2012, 07:06:53 am
content: there's more painless execution, ie shooting in the brain, right where the conciousness processing is. but the blood (waste) will stuck in the body. so slitting the throat is 2 in 1 action, the cleanest possible death while allowing "most" of the blood/waste to drain.at BravoV, yes its syariah teaching, its forbidden to eat dead meat without the procedure (including some spiritual reading and praise to God, thats spiritual i cannot comment and will be pointless to discuss in this tangible world) we just call it "dead animal", not food. there's exception in hard to catch animal, ie eg hunting using gun, but if possible, quickly get to the shoot animal and do the procedure.at slateraptor, you've concluded the absolution of your understanding, for me i will say i dont know enough, esp on spiritual and psychological aspect. sure drinking your piss will not make you dead immediately or soon, just like smoking cigarette (in fact it feel goodthe cigarette, not piss!)Quotethats why we are not allowed to eat pig, because it doesnt have a throat. not to mention the high uric/lactic acid in the bloodstream/meat and incomplete digestion system. and again dont tell me you'll live happily and healthier by eating pig, i cannot argue, i'm happy you can.Quotethats me in green in the 1st picture (not that charming i know), and thats my bro-in-law in white hat doing the procedure because i'm not good enough doing it. thats the sharp knife/sword (we call it parang) and thats the real cow behind the crowd/local. its the old school way of killing animal for food, no machinery no factory farm. nobody going to hospital after that, except "full".i used my hard earn money to buy the cow, $700++ your currency today value, its recommended (not compulsary, only if you can afford) in my religion to do the "qurban/aqiqah" or sacrifice if we have newborn baby or in Hajj season. 1 boy = 2 goat, 1 girl = 1 goat, 1 cow = 7 goat, thats the equivalent of the sacrifice just to let you know the detail (if you interested), the meat will be distributed to the crowd, family, friend etc. we only consume a portion for a ceremony. the social aspect of this is we people get together from close to far distance, better bonding in the society, but... everybody can argue about anythingand is that have similarity to your"agrarian hardshipness"you mentioned before?Quote

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2012, 08:56:41 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on February 01, 2012, 05:30:43 amActually there has been scientific tests done on how to kill to get the best flavor meat, the results showed that the least adrenalin in the system the better, therefore a shot that totally destroys the brain is best, The heart shot myth for deers is just for the sick people who like to kit out their caves with physical evidence of their hunting prowess.I have a friend who is a game keeper one of his jobs is to control deer numbers in the woods, I have been out with him shooting, What does he use for deer control, a .243 with ballistic tip for a head shot as he wants to sell the meat to a game dealer, The heads and horns go in the bin as he does not need hundreds of the things clogging up his house and the game dealer would not want the damage to the meat either mechanical or chemical from a heart lung shot.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2012, 11:42:22 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on February 01, 2012, 07:06:53 amI see that your comments are religiously motivated; I can turn a blind eye to that. However, with respect to "contaminated" blood, it doesn't matter if you've drain "most" of it. If the animal's blood is tainted, then its meat is tainted and shouldn't be eaten to begin with.Quote from: Mechatrommer on February 01, 2012, 07:06:53 amBeef piss is the only kind I've ever seen/tried. I suspect this has much to do with the strict plant diet of cows, and boiling the broth likely denatures whatever harmful substances are in it. The dish uses only a small quantity to attain its distinct flavor, so it's not like you're whipping out your dick and going to town in your mouth.Quote from: Mechatrommer on February 01, 2012, 07:06:53 amActually, it's not. Buying a cow for slaughter is nothing like raising a cow for slaughter. Similarly, buying vegetables at the market is nothing like planting and harvesting crop in the fields. That being said, I suspect local life in Malaysia is very similar to local life on my island, less the Islamic practices.Your slaughter technique for cow is unusual, but I guess it's what your spiritual practices call for. I noticed that the cow was restrained with ropes and men; this is typically how we slaughter pig for fiesta back home, except we have a stone altar for the procedure (not anything religious, more of a custom from ancient days). We kill cow by moving it into a small pen to confine its movement then putting a bullet through its head; carcass is then manually strung up on an A-frame (like the deer in my photo) and butchered.Quote from: G7PSK on February 01, 2012, 08:56:41 amHow about a citation. "Best flavor" is completely subjective and inherently unscientific to begin with. Besides, when I said, "fucks up your meat," I wasn't referring to flavor.