where does one buy a 600VDC 10kW power supply? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 03:36:25 pm
content: where does one buy a 600VDC 10kW power supply?

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 03:41:05 pm
content: https://us.tdk-lambda.com/hp/product_html/genplus10.htm

author: filssavi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 04:15:51 pm
content: From any reasonably large supplier of test equipment really, once you are willing to fork out few kilodollarsI personally used Agilents, TDK lambdas, and elektro automatik ones, and they all work fine for what they are meant to doFew caveats:-they are generally loud as hell, even with disabled outputs or when at low power-regulation at low voltage (up to 30/40V) and no load is poor to non existentEdit: I would request a demo from a sales person before buying

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 04:17:48 pm
content: Quote from: KaneTW on January 30, 2020, 03:41:05 pmWhere do we got one?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 04:22:08 pm
content: Or Kikusui , scroll down to find the suitable one ->https://www.kikusui.co.jp/en/product/detail.php?IdFamily=0070Datasheet ->https://www.kikusui.co.jp/en/product/include/getpdf.php?name=pat.pdfUK rep is Telonic ->https://www.kikusui.co.jp/en/network.html#UNITED%20KINGDOM

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 06:43:51 pm
content: Hmm once upon a time we needed something similar for an ancient wheel lathe we had been gifted for the steam loco repair shops of the railway preservation society of northern IrelandThis is quite a large lathe capable of swinging a pair 6ft6" drivers on axle. Well if you think about it 600VDC is quite close to 415VAC a very common three phase supply voltage here in the UK, so a nice set of silicon rectifiers (6) did the job magnificentlyNow Simon your might say too primitive but TBH you did not say what your application was.https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 06:44:49 pm
content: I have a few. But I haven't worked out how to operate them. Work in progress

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 06:58:17 pm
content: Quote from: fourtytwo42 on January 30, 2020, 06:43:51 pmIsn't that how they get the 600VDC to run the trains too? I remember seeing pictures of larger 3 phase mercury arc rectifiers used to power subway trains, I know I've heard 600V mentioned as the voltage many of them use.

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 07:06:37 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 30, 2020, 06:58:17 pmNow there's a thought for the OP, ROTARY CONVERTER

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 07:17:11 pm
content: Rotary converter?

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 07:28:40 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 30, 2020, 04:17:48 pmYou may want to start with checking"contact us" pageTDK-Lambda UKIlfracombeDevon, EnglandTel: 44-1271 856666Fax: 44-1271 864894Email:powersolutions@emea.tdk-lambda.comWeb: uk.tdk-lambda.com

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 07:35:25 pm
content: This German company FuG also supplies this kind of powerhttps://www.fug-elektronik.de/

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 08:11:28 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 30, 2020, 07:17:11 pmYup like this one, maybe a little large! Sorry for drifting off......But what is the application ?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 08:30:00 pm
content: Sorenson ? Kikusui , Lambda TDk , Agilent / Keysight . Ebay ? (used)

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2020, 01:02:08 am
content: I guess the real question is what input voltage is available and whether or not isolation is required.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2020, 02:53:01 am
content: Quote from: Simon on January 30, 2020, 07:17:11 pmThey were used to convert AC to DC, DC to AC, between different AC frequencies and to step up DC voltages, for example tube electronics that ran on 28VDC aircraft electrical systems prior to solid state electronics that were up to the task. Essentially a combination of motor and generator on a single armature they were made in sizes from maybe a few tens of watts up to many tens of kilowatts.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2020, 06:25:42 am
content: Quote from: Simon on January 30, 2020, 07:17:11 pmIts a motor turning a generator.Motor and generator can be selected for the kind of power that is needed. Say 3 phase 400V 50Hz motor running a 48V DC generator. Or single phase 60Hz AC motor turning a 3 phase 400Hz AC generator. In some cases the same motor can be used as a generator simultaneously.With the advancement of power electronics they have been mostly replaced with switchmode power supplies/inverters. They are still commonly used tho for making 3 phase power out of single phase power(In the US its difficult to get 3 phase power in residential areas so people with machine shops use them to run 3 phase machines).But yes your specifications for this 10kW power supply are a bit sparce.Does it need to be variable from 0 to 600V?Does it need to be regulated?What is the input power to it?Does it need to be isolated from mains?Does it require any current limiting functionality?The huge rack mount PSUs that users are suggesting above indeed cover all of these questions above. But as people have said they these kW cost kilodollars. Don't be surprised to find most of them costing over $5000. But if you have the money you just need to call up TDK or Keysight and soon after have a huge heavy box show up at your front door.If you don't have the kilodollars then its ebay (Will still cost easily 500 bucks tho) or drop some of the above requirements to let you use a more crude PSU solution (Like rectified mains)

author: duak
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2020, 07:56:51 pm
content: Over the past 20 years, CNC machine tools and automation systems using multiple Variable Frequency drives have been going towards a common DC link, likely to increase efficiency by recovering regenerated energy. ie. no braking resistors. Here's an example of a commercial product:https://www.beckhoff.com/AX8640/I'm not recomending this particular one; it was just first one on a google search. Note that the DC-link is not isolated from the mains so a transformer could be needed.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 08:21:34 am
content: Whats the best course of action to find out any regulations that apply to use of a supply that produces up to 1'500V ? I would have this locked off at less than 1'000V.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 09:17:07 am
content: Quote from: Simon on February 05, 2020, 08:21:34 amAgain too sparce.If you are making 1500V to run a electron gun in a CRT of a TV, nobody is going to care. As long as the user can't just grab the 1500V its fine.If you are sticking a 1500V battery pack into an electric vehicle there is gonna be some paperwork involved before you even start making that battery pack.When it comes to test equipment it is generally assumed that the user knows what he is doing. So the only darwin award deterrents are generally scary warning stickers and easily removable plastic cover here or there. The user has to hook it up somehow after all. And this is not only high voltage PSUs, there are other things that can produce high voltages such as SMUs, Calibrators, Megaohm meters. Also RF test equipment can be used to seriously jam important radio bands and get you a visit from the local authorities. The user is simply expected to know what he is doing and do it at his own risk.But in general someone is going to be responsible if something bad happens. So if you build a production test system that is going to be operated by idiot workers that have no idea what they are doing, then you better make it safe. The company is going to be in some seriously hot water if someone kills themselves grabbing a test jig at 1500V. So even if the regulations don't say anything does not mean that you should ignore having safety interlocks on things that can kill people.Regulations are mostly only there to make it harder for idiots to kill themselves with the common dangers. It does not replace common sense

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 10:11:48 am
content: Yes it is more about making sure we are set up safely for the testers and the working environment in general. We will be building battery powered systems (no battery included) up to 600V currently but up to 1kV is I think prudent to cater for. So rather than purchase a power supply that can do exactly 600V and then have that be a wasted investment when we need 650V I am thinking we should be able to supply up to 1kV but the supply range I am looking at now is 800V or 1.5kV.I don't know what testing procedures are required yet. I assume someone deemed to be competent will work in a restricted area testing systems after they have been inspected for build quality by someone that did not build it so that there is a second set of eyes on the equipment before it's powered. Once built there should probably not be any access to live parts.If we get a 1.5kV supply it would be locked at under 1kV and probably to no more than 50V over the required working voltage.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 10:29:50 am
content: Well for that it might make more sense to buy multiple PSUs and reconfigure them in series or parallel as needed.The 10kW 1.5kV supply might be so limited in terms of current capability that it might only give 4kW max at 300V. But if that is a two 750V supplies in series you can reconfigure them to parallel so the 300V is a more significant percentage of the 750V rated voltage and you get double the current due to being parallel. Just make sure the PSU is allowed to float up to such a high voltage.But when it comes to testing like this, it is sometimes easier to have a battery bank capable of the required power then charge it with a little PSU. Just make sure there is plenty fusing and protection in place for if/when things go wrong.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 11:05:51 am
content: As I have mentioned before, you might want to contact the German manufacturer FUG.https://www.fug-elektronik.de/netzgeraete/professional-series/They makecustom orderpower supplies in high quality for reasonable prices.Their professional series covers up to 70kW at 125V to 2000VI have used their power supplies for clients in the automotive field and it has always worked out perfectly.

author: filssavi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 12:04:39 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on February 05, 2020, 10:29:50 amI would advise against putting HV power supplies in series if they are not expressly built to support that configuration as it might cause problems with common mode and such.Also virtually all the High voltage/power PSUs are power limited, thus at low voltage you get much more current (you might have a 6A limit at the max voltage and 60 at low voltages)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 12:13:33 pm
content: Yes most high power PSU's (over 2kW) don't do what is commonly called "powerflex" where between a minimum voltage and max they can deliver a near constant power with the amps going up as the volts go down. The ITEC is the first i see to offer this in units so powerful. The TDK-Lambda for example is a constant 17A no matter the voltage.Yes putting supplies in series can be a problem. Parallel operation would be preferable as it makes things easier.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 12:53:35 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 05, 2020, 12:13:33 pmParallel is no better than series. Consider series or parallel configuration only if such mode of operation is "officially supported". What about using two different supplies - one for max voltage and another for max current tests?

author: PTR_1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 01:00:41 pm
content: Keysight call it Autoranging. They have a 10kw 750v power supply. Model N8929a

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 01:34:58 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on February 05, 2020, 12:53:35 pmYes all of the decent high power supplies have a master/slave mode with the comms ports so that one supply will control a bank of similar supplies. But with parallel connection there are no insulation issues. If you start connecting in series the higher ones in the stack can be well beyond the insulation grade. At these voltages i doubt they are really meant to be put in series at all.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 04:51:48 pm
content: Some large rack supplies do have features to automatically link them together and make them track, yes long chains of 4 supplies in series are likely not supported, but its pretty common to be able to make them track together for making +/- split rails. Especially when both supplies are identical models rather than two different ones (That way a more powerful one couldn't force current trough the weaker one). If the particular model supports series operation the manual will mention it and show how to wire it up for it.Sorry didn't know big supplies are mostly power limited. I never worked with PSUs quite this big and the biggest PSU i own is only about 2kW. In the low kW range the supplies i have seen have no power limit and can do both max current and voltage simultaneously, or do have a power limit but can only be reached with about ~40% or more of the max voltage before it hits the current limit.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 05:40:36 pm
content: All of the rack supplies can be linked. Rather than buy massive ones you can just stack as many as you need or up to a specified maximum as explained in the manual yes.

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 09:15:07 pm
content: Another supplier (at work, we've got a few from them):https://www.et-system.de/en/dc-sources/dc-sources-switch-modeAnd another one from EA (0 ... 1000V / 30A / 10kW limited by U*I):https://elektroautomatik.com/shop/en/products/programmable-dc-laboratory-power-supplies/discontinued-series/series-ps-8000-3u-br-3-3-up-to-15-kw/763/laboratory-power-supply-0..1000v/0..30a?c=2176

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 09:28:17 pm
content: FuG stuff is great. Kikusui lovely and so pretty.Talk to Caltest (https://www.caltest.co.uk/) - they are owned by Pacific Power who make some really nice kit. I've got a 5KW/300V older generation unit here, built like brick karzi's.

author: powerguru
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 06, 2020, 11:03:11 am
content: TDK-Lambda have a nice Genesys+ product that have neat auto parallel functionhttps://www.emea.lambda.tdk.com/uk/products/product-details.aspx?scid=400A unique, easy auto configuring master / slave paralleling system enables scalable power systems up to 30kW to be configured. A range of power levels are available that can be scaled if required . Also they have GSP range in 10kW and 15kW versionshttps://www.emea.lambda.tdk.com/uk/products/product-details.aspx?scid=1408

author: trobbins
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2020, 12:10:03 pm
content: Simon, you have provided almost zero information about what you may be needing. Is that because you don't know what you need? Power supplies can have a myriad of tech specs other than simple max output voltage, and some comment about a max power profile.Perhaps you could use a manually regulated DC supply using simply a 3ph variac and step up transformer and 3ph rectifier and filter. That's one end of the spectrum.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2020, 02:31:21 pm
content: Quote from: powerguru on February 06, 2020, 11:03:11 amWhich was the first suggestion and i have a quote.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2020, 02:32:20 pm
content: Quote from: trobbins on February 06, 2020, 12:10:03 pmMy bosses email said 600V 10kW, that is all I know. Of course there is more to that to a power supply which is why i am asking.

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2020, 03:30:05 pm
content: You can add Advanced Energy to your list. I installed a 10kW 600VDC power supply from them not too long ago.Commonly used in plasma systems - sputtering, vapour deposition etc etc.They make a lot of different types so best to contact them with your requirements...https://www.advancedenergy.com/products/plasma-power-generators/dc-power-systems/

author: trobbins
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2020, 10:43:17 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 06, 2020, 02:32:20 pmI'd suggest going back to your boss for more details. If my boss asked me to look in to buying a car with 4 wheels and four doors, I wouldn't start by going on a car forum ....

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 08:33:28 am
content: Quote from: trobbins on February 08, 2020, 10:43:17 pmHe is not electrically minded, that is what my job is. I know they won't want to spend a fortune and i can only but advise. I already avoided offering some options because i personally was not happy but i have to show him reasonable options.All of the decent supplies seem to offer the same things. digital interfaces of various sorts, master slave control modes with the ability to series/parallel same supplies, over voltage lockout useful for locking an over 1kV supply at less than 1kV. Some offer auto power ranging or power flex but many don't. Some have crap warranty and anything useful is an optional and some just give you the works out of the box. While i was originally asked for 600V 10kW I have since managed to establish that actually he wants to work down to 400V and up to 15-16kW and that 21kW would be ideal. So i have investigated units that do power flex/autoranging. The jury is still out as i am waiting for more quotes to come in.2 of those TDK lamda's in the 15kW variants would be good enough but let's see what else there is. I have been shown some ITECH datasheets of units that look very good and are very cheap but I have also been warned about the quality.

author: trobbins
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 09:40:29 am
content: Usually the application has some technical bearing on what type of power supply is appropriate. Is this application just a resistive load?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 09:50:20 am
content: You do have a 3-phase mains supply available, right ?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 10:49:34 am
content: The application is mostly resistive yes. We don't really need the battery or solar simuations that many supplies offer but if they have it great. Some of the load will be motors like pumps.Yes 3 phase supply in the factory although they have probably not realised yet that for 20+kW they may need to wire it back to the consumer unit area.

author: trobbins
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 12:27:34 pm
content: Is this meant to be one DC supply, with overcurrent protection distribution to various loads? Is the DC going to be floating and use an on-line earth fault detector like a Bender?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 12:40:44 pm
content: Yes one single supply to a single system. I beleive all power supplies i have looked at have a floating output. Is there any reason to ground it? The application is not grounded. what is a bender?

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 12:53:44 pm
content: I think he means these:https://www.bender-uk.com/products/insulation-monitoring/isometer_isohr685wI've come across them in my journeys into EV land. In my school days bender meant something else.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 01:52:04 pm
content: No the TDK does not power flex.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 02:37:05 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 09, 2020, 08:33:28 amHow about a large 3 phase variac (or even an autotransformer with selectable taps) going into a rectifier and then into a large capacitor bank? Then add some DC contactors (the kind used in EVs) on the output, a rectifier load rated RCD/GFCI on the input, and a bleeder/indicator circuit.You can also look into EV fast chargers, but I suspect they're designed as current sources and would require a large capacitor bank in order to have any hope of getting a good transient response.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 04:31:22 pm
content: I think we would be best buying an off the shelf solution so that we are covered in terms of safety. I already have enough work as it is and if they employ someone external (we have a person not that he is much more experienced than me in high voltage stuff) then suddenly it's starting to be more hassle and just as expensive and so muh les flexible.

author: trobbins
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 10:25:45 pm
content: Given the application is not distributing the DC then that certainly alleviates a variety of safety concerns.And yes if you have no in-house electrical engineering capable of setting up a simplified supply, then a commercial supply that complies with all applicable standards (whether it be for mains connect aspects, or safety to operators, or something related to connectors if you are not using fixed wire to the load equipment) is appropriate.I'd suspect that safety related aspects of the total system would need to be competently assessed and documented, as a way to cover identifiable risks, and that mitigating those risks comes back directly to the specs of the power supply just as much as the connection and use of the power within your widget. Just one example is whether there is active monitoring of the DC rails with respect to an earth fault - the power supply may include that - if not then commercial devices like from Bender can be used for interlocking.

author: Phoenix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 04:24:23 am
content: We recently got an ITECH regenerative DC supplyhttps://www.itechate.com/,they do plenty of other supplies to and perhaps a bit cheaper than some of the big names. Website isn't great; but their support was pretty good when we had some initial problems with a faulty internal fan causing the unit to trip.I've also used Magna Power in the past and they were fine too.https://magna-power.com//

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 07:35:22 am
content: Quote from: trobbins on February 09, 2020, 10:25:45 pmIndeed. I am the only skilled person they have. I have confirmed I am happy to work with 600V given that I have done mains work to my knowledge this is as dangerous as in, "it kills". We do vehicle stuff so assuming no earthing in the vehicle there would be no earthing in the test. Should we temporarily earth any metal body and use a bender to protect from any faults on the DC side like an RCCD would do on the AC side?The whole thing will need to be risk assessed and measures put in place to keep unauthorized people out either by physical means or signs and instructions on this being a no go area (discipline is lax where I work).

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 07:36:51 am
content: Quote from: Phoenix on February 10, 2020, 04:24:23 amYes a customer of ours apparently has just had a load of ITECH stuff put in. I have been told by one of the distributors that he can't see how they can be CE marked but the guy selling them said hat there are 2 itechs, the other is RS in house brand or something to that effect.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 09:26:50 am
content: Quote from: Simon on February 10, 2020, 07:35:22 amI am surprised you ask this question!That means no person in your company has basic training with this kind of power?There are courses offered now for the car repair business for the correct handling of electric vehicle safety in the repair shop. In Germany, a car repair shop is not allowed to work on electric vehicles, without having done this safety course. They are not even allowed to repair a bumper!I highly recommend such safety course before starting work on this project!

author: trobbins
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 11:01:15 am
content: Quote from: Simon on February 10, 2020, 07:35:22 amDoes this mean battery charging ?I'm not across recent EV power connections as to whether the power supply has all the smarts, or the vehicle has total control of the power flow/protection/charging profile.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 12:39:10 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on February 10, 2020, 09:26:50 amI did indeed suggest such a course. But do these courses teach you how to work with high voltages or how to set them up as well? It's like the wiring regulations for buildings, they don't teach you how it works just how to install it.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 12:40:20 pm
content: Quote from: trobbins on February 10, 2020, 11:01:15 amwe do heat transfer

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 03:35:19 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 10, 2020, 12:39:10 pmI do not know about this in your country.In Germany the full course is almost 2 weeks long and you learn everything from the basics to details of handling electric vehicles and its all hands on.Only when such certificate exist, is the car repair shop allowed to work on electric vehicles.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 04:17:08 pm
content: We are not working on electric vehicles, just designing and building equipment for them. So really it's just about higher voltage safety.

author: trobbins
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 02:49:57 am
content: Quote from: Simon on February 10, 2020, 07:35:22 amA safety assessment would likely indicate that the test vehicle be solidly earthed for the purposes of testing, assuming that has no implications. It sounds like you then position some accessory equipment in the test vehicle and provide a cable harness to your equipment. You then need to map out all the hazards and how to mitigate them.I guess some initial summary would include if your equipment and all cabling was completely insulated, or had protective earth connections to all key or exposed metalwork, and to some suitable IP rating, and does it include safety protection for plausible fault situations like over-temp sensing etc. There are usually guidelines in local standards as to the minimum requirements to manage various hazards - the list could go on and on - and you would need to be competent in identification and assessment.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 04:49:41 am
content: If you want a 'proper' power supply ask photonic induction.