Cashless Australia - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 08:18:49 pm
content: I am reading all these articles about how Australia is going cashless. Clearly the online companies are ecstatic. What do you think?I'm worried about natural disasters if you cant access your bank account, how will you pay? If there is a solar storm that wipes out the grid, how will you pay? If you have a negative balance, how will you access toll roads?Video Link:https://therealnews.com/stories/who-is-fighting-war-against-cash-visa-mastercard-bill-gatesDo you use your cell phone to pay now? Obvious, peoples lives will become an open book to the information brokers. In India they just demonetized, suddenly the two topdenominations of cash became worthless. Millions of poor Indians lost their life savings. The Modi government didn't seem concerned. It later came out that a US group, the Better Than Cash Alliance had been involved, calling the Indian demonetization their pilot project.In a cashless society any problem could become a major disaster very quickly. Also it gives too much power to companies that should never have become as big as they are. IMHO. We see the problem with the GAFA companies. (Google Apple Facebook Amazon)http://NorbertHaering.dehas been tracking the cashless issue.reference example:https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-09/australia-can-learn-from-swedens-move-to-a-cashless-society/12282764another relevant link:Readings from "The Digital Poorhouse, Automating inequality"

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 08:25:15 pm
content: How many people currently have stacks of cash on hand? If banks go out now, nobody would have access to the money anyway.All those arguments are very tired and weak.Also, with a major economic collapse your remaining cash on hand would be worthless anyway. Cash is worth anything only in a working economy.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 08:42:28 pm
content: QuoteIn a cashless society one failure and your screwed,for example the supermarkets cant take cards,as has happened several times in the uk, no way to buy your shopping,however with the cash machines still working your able to get cash to pay for your goods

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 08:46:17 pm
content: What is exactly the nature of the failure that makes all supermarkets not accept cards, but ATMs work?What if all supermarket cash registers jammed? The won't be able to give you change, so you can't buy anything. This sounds to be as likely as card payments not working , yet ATMs working. Those things are connected to the same backend.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 09:07:26 pm
content: Quotehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-55805777

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 09:10:42 pm
content: @ataradov: AtM network is separate from direct payment ( merchant) network, at least in Canada. Sure they come to a same IBM mainframe at the bank, but this is a long way before they do.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 09:19:31 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on March 08, 2021, 09:07:26 pmOk, so one payment processor went down. Go to a different store. Or wait a bit until the issue is resolved. They are losing a ton of money, so they are very motivated to resolve it.And even in this case is looks like cashiers could still accept card, just the self service broke. Is is an option for a cash payment at self service anyway?To be clear, I'm not advocating for cashless system. I just don't see any real arguments against it.

author: MIS42N
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 09:21:56 pm
content: Australia is not as well connected as many countries. A storm went through yesterday, and a thousand houses still without power. How do shops in the area operate in a cashless society? My car needs oil 200km from the nearest shop so I go to a nearby farm to beg some. How do I pay the farmer? I want to give my 8 year old some money to spend in sideshow alley at the show. Do I give her a credit card? I think going cashless makes more problems than it solves. People may resort to barter and governments would lose revenue. I think there is a point where cash and cashless can exist in equilibrium.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 09:26:06 pm
content: Quote from: MIS42N on March 08, 2021, 09:21:56 pmIn the san franciso earhquake of 1989 almost all businesses totally shut down for two weeks.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 09:37:00 pm
content: My problem with this move away from cash isn't some disaster scenario. It's that cash is more or less anonymous and straightforward to use, it throws a wrench in the efforts made by corporations and government to easily track everybody and control what gets bought and sold to a degree that would have made the Stasi, KGB, etc. faint with joy, and they don't like that.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 09:44:13 pm
content: I only ever use cash for the local takeaway that doesn't take card.Other than that, I use my phone to pay for virtually everything. It fingerprint authenticates my payment, so even if my phone was stolen, I know the chance of fraud is low. In theory, I can pay up to £10,000 with a fingerprint or other cardholder verification on a mobile device, at least in the UK, although most stores are limited to £250 or £500.Bring on the death of cash, I am more than happy to see it go.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 09:48:47 pm
content: Quote from: BrokenYugo on March 08, 2021, 09:37:00 pmI agree. In the US, there is still incentive and advantage to using cash. I live in an area with a lot of Amish. They are a cash economy. Why pay a credit card company 3% to 5% (or more) for every transaction?

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 09:52:58 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on March 08, 2021, 08:42:28 pmI don't know about in the UK, but here in NZ if an EFTPOS terminal loses connection it will still work in offline mode, where in the merchant can process transactions with certain limits and those will be batched up and transferred when the network comes back online again.If there's no power, find a merchant with a generator (or a zip-zap) :-)

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 09:54:20 pm
content: Quote.And if the affected store is the only one in your village,you dont drive and the next bus to the nearest town is 2 or 3 days away?QuoteNo it was ALL card payments at any tillQuoteyep,at least im my local supermarket

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 09:58:41 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on March 08, 2021, 09:54:20 pmWhat if the store closed down? What if the store burned down? What if the owner died? What if...There are plenty of ways in which your only-store-in-the-village could become unavailable. If you are in that situation, you should have a backup plan for getting to another one, or at least have sufficient provisions until you can sort something out.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 10:01:50 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on March 08, 2021, 08:42:28 pmIf payment gateway is down, merchants can do offline credit card processing.If you are out of cash, I doubt supermarket will put your groceries on tab.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 10:25:53 pm
content: Quote from: sleemanj on March 08, 2021, 09:52:58 pmAlso works if the phone does not have a signal to do Apple Pay, etc. The cryptographic authentication can work for some time before it requires a connection.The only disadvantage is the phone doesn't track the payment amounts (that's done by the POS) without a signal, so if you pay without a signal/Wi-Fi you can get a confusing notification a few days later telling you, you've just made a payment of amount £x.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 10:49:16 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on March 08, 2021, 08:46:17 pmWhen the people processing the card transactions for the supermarkets are not the same people doing the processing for the cash machines.This actually happened around 3 weeks ago in the UK. The card processor that Morrisons and the Co-Op use for till transactions (ACI) fell over. I was in Morrisons when this happened and had to use some of the cash that has been sitting untouched in my wallet for a year. Other people had to trudge out to the cash machine outside (which was working) and trudge back in again with real cold hard cash.Details here:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-55805777

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 11:10:10 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on March 08, 2021, 08:25:15 pmI agree. I do have some cash on hand and some in my wallet but I never use it. NFC payments using a debit card are great. Over here it seems only old people use cash nowadays. If things are so bad I can't pay at the supermarket using my debit card they are likely not able to accept cash as well.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 12:13:07 am
content: [quote author=vad link=topic=272910.msg3501174#msg3501174If payment gateway is down, merchants can do offline credit card processing.If you are out of cash, I doubt supermarket will put your groceries on tab.Not around here anymore! Very few store even have the mechanical card swipe machines anymore and none of the brainless employees knows how to fill in a form. I was in a store about 3 years ago and their PC based cash register was broken and they couldn't take credit cars so I offered to pay in cash. But the three employees, including a so called manager, in the store couldn't figure out to find the price of the item without a working computer. I tried to tell them that it was printed on the sticker on the shelf where the item was located but they wouldn't accept that. They also had NO idea of how to compute the sales tax and also didn't even know what the sales tax rate was!!!Like it or not, we're headed to a cashless society; the banks and credit card companies are pushing it so that they can take ~3% off of the top of every transaction, the government wants it so that they can get ALL of the sales taxes that they're due, the retail companies want it to in order to make their accounting and inventory control easier and so that they don't have to worry about robberies etc, and the new breed ofbrain-deadminimum wage of $15 per hour employees willrequireit!

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 02:37:16 am
content: Perhaps this is a good reason to support cryptocurrencies and a wireless mesh network (using LoRa or similar) to enable transactions without depending on the Internet.

author: 25 CPS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 02:56:32 am
content: Quote from: Bud on March 08, 2021, 09:10:42 pmThis has to be 15-17 years ago now, but do you remember that spectacular failure TD had where all of their bank machines went down and the other four big banks blocked withdrawals by TD customers because they were afraid their machines would be raided and run out of cash but debit (Interac) kept working as normal?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 03:22:43 am
content: Very true, In the very realistic 2010 film "The Road" there is a post apocalyptic scene set in a supermarket that had been the scene of much bloodshed in a post apocalyptic landscape the empty building was filled with money in large denominations which were scattered around like leaves and blowing in the wind among skeletons and corpses. Maybe its on YouTube.Quote from: ataradov on March 08, 2021, 08:25:15 pmLots of info about the huge changes coming at ILO.They try to and put out highquality, info.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 03:33:45 am
content: Australia may not have money on trees but there is plenty under the ground.if all else fails in an emergency, breakout the metal detector,

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 03:39:29 am
content: Iceland has gone pretty cashless, but I don't see it happening completely in most countries for a while. Last time I was in Germany, every restaurant claimed that their credit card machine was 'down' and asked me to pay cash. And here in the good ol USA, the magnitude of the informal economy is so great that eliminating cash would cause complete chaos. People would be trading goats. And for those you that think crypto will fix this, well....

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 04:17:45 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on March 08, 2021, 08:42:28 pmwhenevr i go into sin city i pick up sin cash.the dirtiest money i cand find. straight from the nether regions.it smellls nastyiI'm just joking

author: HwAoRrDk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 04:19:42 am
content: I am against moves to go cashless, for one major reason that can be expressed in a single word: disenfranchisement.Even in here in the 21st century, in first-world countries, there are still significant proportions of the population that have no access to electronic payment methods or even banking facilities full stop. Those with very bad credit, immigrants, the homeless, etc. Take away their ability to trade with cash and you take away the ability for them to live their lives independently.I find it usually surprises people that the law here in the UK only says that legal tender cannot be refused in the settlement of a debt. This means that many types of vendor aren't actually required to take cash if they don't want to. An example of a debt would be having a meal in a restaurant - the food is prepared at your order and consumed before payment is requested, so you're in their debt. But buying a chocolate bar in your local corner shop isn't, because if you don't pay, you don't get the goods, so there is no debt.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 04:23:30 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on March 09, 2021, 12:13:07 amYou don’t need to have the mechanical card swipe machine for offline processing, although these can still be in use. Electronic payment terminals can do offline authorization. Ever wonder how inflight card transactions get processed by airlines?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 04:26:51 am
content: Mechanical machines are not even viable anymore. I've got a replacement card last year, not only it did not have embossed letter, but it actually has no information printed on the front, not a name not a number. There is only a chip and a bank name. The rest printed is on the reverse side.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 07:43:58 am
content: Quote from: cdev on March 08, 2021, 08:18:49 pmThe Great Reset is about to happen... the Federal Reserve will send everyone their basic income money electronically and, if not spent by end of month, reset to zero...

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 08:11:59 am
content: My problem wouldn't be a global disaster scenario, but a personal one.Imagine, that you own the tax office and the bank. It's overdue, you lost jour job or other tragedy happened, health issue, sick family member. Say, your balance is 0. Your credit is 0 because you couldn't pay the last one. You are selling your furniture, to get some money, to be able to buy food. You sell your sofa. By the time you get to the store to buy some food, the tax office liberated the money from your account, because you owned them.With cash, you have the control to buy food first (and not die) and pay for mortgage, utility bill or outstanding invoices later. Nowadays, you cannot open nameless account. Maybe there will be cards that are not linked to your personal account, like prepaid debit cards.0 is a strange number. Going from 1 to 2 is a 100% increment, going from 0 to 1 is infinite.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 09:15:58 am
content: It's funny you should actually post about this. I was just talking about this today with a friend.I could count on two hands the number of times I've actually used cash over the past 5-10 years, whether it be small amounts for something like a coffee or thousands of dollars for something larger. Everything for me is paid via debit card (backed by Visa and Mastercard, but offers no credit facility).NFC has taken over as the primary card type (followed by chip-based cards). Magstripe is almost never used any more (and in many cases, terminals will refuse magstripe payments or have it disabled altogether). Almost all newer style pinpads don't have a magnetic reader any more. Just about every card has NFC, Chip and Magstripe by default.As a consumer, it usually costs me nothing to use a card for everything. Some stores will charge a fee (which is a card processing fee passed down from the merchant) that is usually 0.25 to 0.50% of the total payment amount but not all stores pass that on. This fee is only charged if I select the "Credit" option on the card machine, otherwise I can press "Savings" and it's completely free everywhere. For me, it all comes out of the same pool of money, the only difference is how the payment gets routed. An example of where this might be different is if you had 1 card, but a credit account attached to your normal savings/transaction account. Pressing "Credit" would use the credit side of things where as pressing "Savings" (or far less commonly "Cheque") would pull the money from another one of your accounts.Likewise, money transfers here between accounts or even intrabank transfers (via your internet banking portal or a smartphone app) are instantaneous and completely free. Then on top of that, there is an application available for iOS and Android devices calledBeem Itwhich allows for instant payments for up to $2000 per day (or $10,000 per 30 days). I use it when someone pays for dinner and I want to transfer my share of the bill.Just on cheques briefly, they are almost never used in Australia any more. I think I could probably count on one hand the number of times I've handled a cheque and all of them have been more than 10 years ago.As for security, just like anything, if you look after your things and are mindful of personal security and the security of your mail, you won't get scammed or skimmed. Treat payment methods like you (should) treat your passwords, although most banks here will reverse unauthorised transactions, or if they can't, refund small amounts at their cost, without any questions asked.For me, cashless works reliably and securely every single time. Even when networks go down, payments are honoured.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 09:29:47 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 09, 2021, 08:11:59 amThat is why you have multiple bank accounts at multiple banks. One ingoing account, one outgoing account and don't take a mortgage from a bank where you also have a bankaccount you actively use. In the NL this setup works until a judge grants a debt collector the right to claim your assets in which case you can't sell anything anyway.Quote from: HwAoRrDk on March 09, 2021, 04:19:42 amOver here shops are obliged to accept (small) cash payments by law and I assume this will be the case everywhere else. However there are also countries where you can't pay expensive items using cash. The limit may be as low a few k euro as part of anti-money laundring regulations.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 01:23:55 pm
content: In the US and many other countries, the drug trade will ensure that cash will remains King* for a long time to come! Drugs and other underground economies are another BIG reason that the US and other governments are stublely trying to force a switch to a cashless economy.For the benefit of the ones of you that aren't in the US and aren't familiar with their idioms, there is a saying in business that "Cash is King". Meaning that it's acceptable or evenpreferredin most transactions.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 08:19:32 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on March 09, 2021, 01:23:55 pmDid you read Norbert Haering's serieshttps://norberthaering.deon the Indian demonetization actually being caused by a cabal of big US companies? This seems quite possible.. They just drool over the free money they will get from all this.... regulation..If people have no choice.. Its kind of like that now with corona virus.. people have no choice but to transact and interact online.This is why the privacy rules should be enhanced. Frankly, I would like to see much mkore online prvacy and I would also like to see the huge firms broken up. No part of them should be too big to fail. Also, there is a need for more privacy online. The user tracking is going to spiral out of control, I can see it going that way. It will become like George Orwell's 1984 but worse.Peoples devices will become a surveillance nightmare. There will be no freedom as the corporations become able to manipulate peoples lives in every possible way. They will have incredible power to get what they want. Politics will become more and more corrupt with no means of control by the public.At least that uis where I think this is taking us. As an American I don't think this coulntry can afford all the decisions that are being made for corporations. IMHO People are naive and gullible and dont realize what the mega corporations are planning for them. They don't have even the foggiest clue.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 08:33:07 pm
content: I have perhaps a few hundred dollars in cash on hand at any given time, it's enough to cover an unexpected expense but it won't go very far in the grand scheme of things. I'm not too worried about it though, there are other methods. Credit cards can be processed the old fashioned manual way, many businesses still have one of the old carbon paper card machines stashed in a cupboard somewhere and it can be done completely manually with a pen and paper. It would also be possible for local businesses to open a tab and extend credit on their own to customers, people will find a way to make transactions.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 08:35:34 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on March 09, 2021, 01:23:55 pmI know some people have that mentality, although for me personally cash is a nuisance for a transaction of more than $100 or so. I don't want to walk around carrying a large amount of cash so if somebody pays me in cash I have to go straight to the bank to deposit it. If someone pays me digitally I don't have to do anything more, the money changes hands and I don't have to carry anything physical.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 08:42:29 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 09, 2021, 08:35:34 pmYes. In the past we have bought and sold some cars to/from private persons. When selling we always did the transaction at the post office (also necessary to transfer the registration) and deposit the money into the bank account straightaway. Buying a car (and thus walking around with a sizeable chunk of cash) never made me very comfortable. Nowadays bank transfers are instant (at least over here) so all you need is your mobile phone to check your balance or make a transfer (still subject to risk though).

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 10:50:55 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 09, 2021, 09:29:47 amActually, 3 accounts from 3 countries, and 2 currencies. I want to open an unnamed account in Switzerland sometime in the future maybe it is still possible.But Australia with its policies is sometimes very close to the United States. Its nice to think in the EU that everywhere else life is this civilized... But then they can shoot you legally in Texas if you go through someone back yard. Or a debt collector using illegal practices to collect the debt, and your only defense is to sue them, which you are unable to do because you have no money. Or power company deciding to charge 2000% the normal rate. The list goes on. It's like the wild west.

author: duckduck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 11:57:37 pm
content: Just imagine having to pay tax on every single purchase you make.How will people buy illegal items and services? I suppose you will buy a $200 "massage" and $80 of "candy". The real question I have is, how will drug dealers buy their drugs from the middle-men? Perhaps the transactions will be done in gold, like in ye olden times. People are amazingly creative and good ideas propagate quickly. I love learning about street economics. Look into why Tide laundry detergent was being stolen from stores in the US for a while. Fascinating stuff.EDIT:The international banks were only too eager to help the drug cartels move their cash out of the USA. I'm sure it will be the same in Australia. More interesting will be the mid-level transactions inside Australia. There will be a whole new class of officials on the take.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 12:45:16 am
content: I don't think cash will completely go away in the foreseeable future. There will always be some non-electronic way of transferring wealth. It's just going to keep becoming more and more of a niche thing.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 02:00:11 am
content: Quote from: vad on March 09, 2021, 04:23:30 amI guess that you didn't bother to read my statement. The computer mother board that the store's cash register/CC Processing machine was DEAD! It seems hard to believe that a modern business would be reliant on a single computer but many of them are. I can't count the number of times that I have been a business that had operational cash registers (dumb terminals) but all connected to one computer and it was acting up so they couldn't conduct any business. Maybe they CAN do offline authorizations but they don't! They just tell you to come back later. I've even seen that in doctors' and dentist's offices. There's so much fraud around here involving medical insurance that every office waits until you're literally standing in front of them before they go online or call and check that your insurance is still valid. If they can't connect or if their computer or the the insurance company's computer isn't working and they can't get validation then you don't get seen!

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 02:16:43 am
content: Quote from: cdev on March 09, 2021, 08:19:32 pmI completely with you on all points. The growing lack of privacy in the US is appalling and people's willingness to willingly give it up in the form of Apps and other software like FaceBook and Google is just mind boggling.I haven't seen Haering's series but i will look into them. A good friend of mine (actually several) is Indian and his family lost a TON of money in the recent demonetization. Like many Indian families they had been sitting on their cash and they were only allowed to trade in a small portion of it so the majority of their cash suddenly became worthless. Shivan told me that only something like 15% of all of the cash in India was redeemed. Just think of all of that currency that the government of India no longer has the legal responsibility to redeem! I guess that now, they're free to print Trillions more and are free to spend it as well.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 02:34:31 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 09, 2021, 08:35:34 pmI'm like you. I keep around a thousand dollars in cash at home but usually only have perhaps 3 $20 bills on me when I'm out and about. And those usually last me for WEEKS. I generally pay foreverythingwith a credit card. OTOH I do stay well stocked on fuel, food and water and anything else that I consider essential (TP!) so outages and short term shortages rarely affect me. My regular checks are direct deposited and we make nearly all of our payments electronically. Groceries, fuel, meals out and anything that we order is all paid for via CCs and we pay the CC companies at the end of each month electronically. We write exactly two checks per year, both to the local county and for property taxes and for automobile registrations. We would pay those with a CC or electronically but they charge a hefty fee for using those so we just write two checks.Unless someone is going to give me a discount for paying cash, I just pay for everything with a CC and I avoid the hassles of carrying cash and having to make or take change.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 02:51:34 am
content: I do not feel compfortable unless i have about $100 in cash on me for all the debt style transactions. E.g. eating at a resteraunt or fueling my car. If something goes south i much prefer to pay cash than have to hand over something in collateral.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 03:28:57 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on March 10, 2021, 02:16:43 amI remember when Bitcoin sharply increased in value as a result. I guess that if Indians can't trust their own currency to not suddenly become worthless, they might as well use Bitcoin...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 03:35:54 am
content: Quote from: Rerouter on March 10, 2021, 02:51:34 amI like to keep $20-$60 in my wallet for that sort of thing. Unless I'm a long way from home, $20 will buy me enough gas to get there and it's rare that I spend more than that on a meal. If I find myself really in a jam I can call somebody to come help me out.

author: jhalar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 03:41:03 am
content: I went to my specialist doctor recently. The payment terminal could not pickup the wifi to make a payment and the terminal could not do an offline transaction.Lucky I had enough cash to pay for the visit.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 03:43:02 am
content: Quote from: jhalar on March 10, 2021, 03:41:03 amSeems like the burden is on them in that case. If they are unable to process the transaction they should send you on your way and mail you a bill.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 04:02:27 am
content: If you pay the bill at their office and it turns out insurance is supposed to cover it then it should mail you a hefty check refunding you the money you paid.. back. I think one of the main reasons the powers that be want cashless is to they can claw back money that was overpaid, say if you sell some stuff on ebay but dont declare it, then you may be deemed guilty of collecting benefits you were not entitled to. then they can decide you werent covered for that year or back to the beginning of the policy, cancel out (claw back their payments to doctors and then rebill you at the uninsured rate back to the beginning of the policy. This is called rescission or post claim underwriting. This may result in unpayable six or seven figure bills huge bills.; But they just take your wages until you have paid it back, if the system is automated. It will cause problems when people try to travel, too. Also people sometimes get hit wit hugh bills through no fault of their own because an out of network doctor assisted at their surgery when the in network doctor who was sheduled cancelled out. This might cause a patient a surprise six figure bill.Once they are hooked into your bank account, you have no control over what they do. And often if they take out money that will trigger a cascade of new fees from the bank. People in Australia have been so beaten down by this "robo debt" system that some have committed suicide, Ive read, but the government denies that.You can read the stories and the debate under the robodebt or centrelink keyword..

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 08:14:05 am
content: I think they want cashless because it's cheaper, easier and less error prone to handle. Taking cash and counting out change takes time, it requires a cashier that is paying attention (harder to achieve these days than it ought to be) and it is error prone. At the end of the day you have to count the till and either store the money away in a safe or take it to the bank. Digital money has none of that, it extracts the exact amount needed, there is no need for change. It does not rely on a human to count or handle it, the risk of petty theft is lower, it doesn't have to be stored in a safe and nobody has to physically take it to a bank. You also don't have to print it (significant expense) and it never wears out. There are a lot of reasons for businesses and government to prefer cash-less that don't involve any kind of ulterior motive.

author: MIS42N
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 08:45:08 am
content: The only difference between cash and cashless is that cash is a transaction between two people, cashless is a transaction between at least three. It only takes two to see the physical handing over of a $50 note and agree that money has been transferred. If someone were smart enough to come up with an electronic version of this, then I would have no problem with going cashless. I don't want to pay a third party to move my money, and I don't like that every movement is recorded somewhere.This thread reminded me that we paid the deposit on our first home in cash. The real estate agent thought it strange but had no problem taking the money. Maybe he thought we were drug dealers. I wonder what would happen if someone tried that today.

author: Oldtestgear
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 10:52:49 am
content: A cashless society has the following advantages:- all your money goes through a bank & can be tracked or traced.- with interest rates of almost zero there is no incentive to keep money in a bank.- many people (me included) find it difficult to keep track & so will spend more money than if cash is used.- as there is no real money changing hands, the real cost is less obvious & can help increase prices.- those nasty poor people who do not have access to a card or bank account can be ignored as they do not have enough income to worry about.- it will be impossible to get a discount for cashSeems to me that all these advantages benefit the banks & government but not the actual consumer. I used to live on cards when I was working as I was travelling all over the world. Today, happily retired, I definitely prefer to use cash & will not use a card for small payments like coffee or snacks. Yes, I know that I am old & grumpy but am fed up with being told that I must conform to a norm that is of no practical benefit to me.Thee are also many activities ( radio rallies, flea markets, etc.) that the small stall holders will be barred from in a cashless society. I do not plan to pay for a card reader just to do a couple of events a year.FWIW

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 11:16:59 am
content: Quote from: Oldtestgear on March 10, 2021, 10:52:49 amI do not plan to pay for a card reader ether!No more garage sales, church fetes or trash and treasure.were we get odd bits of cheap used electronics!

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 12:22:33 pm
content: Quote from: Oldtestgear on March 10, 2021, 10:52:49 amIt literally takes 10 seconds to setup a transfer between accounts with a QR code.You set the amount your phone shows the QR code, they read it, click accept done. You might need to place your finger on the fingerprint reader once.It is faster than counting coins.Of course you might be the person that uses a Nokia 3310, or find another way of argue about this if you really want to.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 12:39:51 pm
content: A cashless society is a prerequisite for heavy negative interest rates. While there is cash people will just keep a lot of it if interest rates go negative. In the UK the terms of service for most bank accounts recently changed, so the banks can introduce a cap on the maximum in your accounts, and can apply "charges" on deposits in those accounts. "charges" is just another way of saying negative interest rates. I am not clear why they want to cap the amount you can keep in your accounts. They aren't giving any indication of the sort of amounts they might cap your accounts to.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 02:45:13 pm
content: They keep saying all sorts of things wont happen but we all should assume they will. They are living on their own planet in these Internet companies, they think they have the whole world over a barrel because of the technical nature of what they do. AS somebody who has worked on a search engine at a professional level I know that thetechnologyto spider sites and collect the data, no matter what it is, is not rocket science.They are definitely up to no good. Here isa list of NorbertHarings most popular English-language storieswhich contains most of thisexcellent demonetization work. I am ashamed that my country is trying to force this on the rest of us. The digital mafia has become a sort of a global organized crime against privacy and freedom of speech. Enabled by their partnerships with intelligence operations around the globe. Corporations are being conveniently left unaccountable to the public, no doubt intentionally.IUndia demonetized their currency and many poor people lost their entire life savings.It was brutal. We're talking about a tremendously mixed up country where the rich people should have known better but the fact is they don't give a fuck about the lives of most of the people in that country.Here is a guide to Norbert Haring's pages on this subject.summarized and linked by the author himself.-cut here------below is quoted from Norbert Haring's web site)Catalyst’s Malick, unhappy with report on US influence on India’s demonetisation, hits back with false claimOn rediff, one of India’s most popular news-sites, Badal Malick, CEO of the US-Indian anti-cash-organization Catalyst, explains via a friendly journalist, what Catalyst is doing and thatmy writing on Catalyst and on Washington’s meddling in the fight against cash in Indiawas bogus. He did not convince me. Maybe he will convince you.To very briefly summarize [Norbert Haring's] piece “‘A Well-Kept Open Secret: Washington Is Behind India’s Brutal Demonetisation Project‘”( augmentedhereor both in aconsolidated version on zero hedge), I had written that the longstanding US influence, notably the influence of the Better Than Cash Alliance, in the fight against cash in India has been conspicuously absent in the discussion about the sudden demonetization that Premier Modi decreed on 8 November 2016. I have then provided the evidence of this US involvement, including the launch of Catalyst less than four weeks before the demonetization. Therediff-articleeven mentions that Catalyst was launched at a conference in Delhi hosted by the … drumrolls … Better Than Cash Alliance.This is the part of therediff-articlethat deals with my writing:”Even as Catalyst was taking its baby steps, the payments industry went on full throttle with the sudden decision by the government to cancel legal tender of large denomination notes. Khandelwal of CAIT, who had been hard selling the concept to the merchant community, summarises the impact, “Digital payments have become a fashion statement these days. But, when we were holding workshops between 2014 and November 8, 2016, hardly any one turned up.’ For Malick and Catalyst, it was a double-edged sword. While the move made their task lighter in some ways, they got dragged into a controversy after Norbert Häring, a German journalist writing for a Montreal-based think tank, linked, among other things, Malick’s “10x increase” remark in October to the demonetisation decision that came a month later. In an article titled, ‘A Well-Kept Open Secret: Washington Is Behind India’s Brutal Demonetisation Project’, Häring suggested that the seeds of India becoming a laboratory for the global digital push were sown in a meeting between US President Barack Obama and Prime Minister Modi two years ago. While the article went viral on social media, not many in the sector buy this theory. Sharad Sharma of iSPIRT said the movement of cashless India is several years old and predates Obama’s visit to India. For example, the application programming interfaces for Unified Payments Interface were issued by National Payments Corporation of India in 2014. Malick says the article was baseless. “I was grossly misquoted. Neither I nor USAID were reached out to.”Malick does not say what it is I grossly misquoted. There are three quotes of his in my piece. The first is taken from the press statement of USAID and reads:„Catalyst’s mission is to solve multiple coordination problems that have blocked the penetration of digital payments among merchants and low-income consumers. We look forward to creating a sustainable and replicable model. (…)”The second and third are taken from The Economic Times and say:“While there has been (…) a concerted push for digital payments by the government, there is still a last mile gap when it comes to merchant acceptance and coordination issues. We want to bring a holistic ecosystem approach to these problems.“and“The goal is to take one city and increase the digital payments 10x in six to 12 months.”You can read for yourself that the quotes are there. Mr. Malick should kindly explain on what basis he accuses me of “grossly” misquoting him.Note that I am not writing for a Montreal-based think tank. Global Research simply republished the piece from my blog, which I am running in a personal capacity. Sharad Sharma denies something that I have not claimed, nor suggested, namely “ that the seeds of India becoming a laboratory for the global digital push were sown in a meeting between US President Barack Obama and Prime Minister Modi two years ago.” As Sharma correctly states, the drive against cash in India dates back further – and so does the involvement of the US. As I explain in my follow-up piece to the first one, the Better Than Cash Foundation, bankrolled by USAID and the Gates Foundation and including Visa and Mastercard amoung its members, was founded in 2012. In 2013, when Raghruam Rajan from Chicago took over at the helm of the Reserve Bank of India, one of the first things he did was to establish a commission on financial inclusion through new technologies headed by Nachiket Mor, who is now head of …. drumrolls … the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation India. Since 2013 there have been several reports by US institutions on digitalization of finance in India, written with input from the Better Than Cash Alliance. One of the latest ones, by Boston Consulting Group and Google with “guidance” from Visa and the National Payments Corporation of India among other commercially interested parties, was presented in Juli 2016. It is notable for leaving out all the usual euphemistic talk about financial inclusion and talks instead of India as a “$500 bn pot of gold” and of what has to be done to “grab” it. It rather bluntly orders the Indian government to do this, that and such to help with the grab. A month later, the Indian government sets up a (Watal) committee to make suggestions and the committee suggests almost exactly this, that and such.All this chimes very well with a recent Washington whitepaper ona “Framework for FinTech” in which it is clearly stated that US payment services companies are global leaders, and that this should not be taken for granted. The global leader with its very large export surplus in payment services can expect to grab a big part of the pot of gold, if cash is put out.I will write more about this soon the BCG/Google-report, the whitepaper and the committee as soon as I get to it. Stay tuned. [17.1.2017]About this blog: This is the English-language section of a weblog, which is mostly in German. There is an E-mail-newsletter that will inform you only of new English language entries. If you would like to subscribe, just click on “keep me informed” on the left. You can unsubscribe easily any time. To get a PDF of this blog-entry, click on the PDF-Symbol below the headline.Abut the author: Dr. Norbert Haering is a German business journalist and blogger. His best-selling book on “Abolishing cash and the consequences” was published in 2016 by Bastei-Luebbe (in German). More …(end quotation)

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 03:55:28 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 10, 2021, 12:22:33 pmMajor banks in the US provide Zelle for instant transfer between bank account. The sender just needs to use bank’s mobile app and enter a phone number or email address of the receiving party. The whole transaction end-to-end takes less time than counting change.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 04:02:18 pm
content: Cashless society means less violent crime: fewer armed bank/store robberies, fewer street robberies. Probably less relevant to Australia than to the US though.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 04:35:48 pm
content: Number one reason why a government would prefer a cashless society is that every transaction can be tracked, traced and accounted for. They can keep tabs on tax evasion, money laundering and link every little purchase to an individual, or a business entity. This is all part of the surveillance apparatus, which naturally has serious privacy implications for everyone involved.The obsession with limiting cash flow is also evident by the proposed$10,000 cash payment limit bill, and there was also talk about scrapping $100 notes, but I don't think that's gonna happen any time soon. That being said, I rarely see ATMs dispense $100 notes these days.I would not be surprised if these kinds of restrictions would compel people to start hoarding cash rather than depositing money in banks.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 04:39:08 pm
content: Quote from: vad on March 10, 2021, 04:02:18 pmThe numerous Indians bankrupted by government actions over cash in 2016 probably aren't particularly consoled by the crime being non-violent.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 04:57:32 pm
content: QuoteAnd give them control of who spends how much on what.In the uk its been suggested sevral times to make benefit payments via a card that can only be used for certain transactions in certain shops

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 05:08:05 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on March 10, 2021, 04:57:32 pmSo Mrs. 25-Children can't go and spend my taxes on her 60" TV? My, that'd be a shame..

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 06:48:46 pm
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on March 10, 2021, 04:35:48 pmI see this as a good thing. The Government don't care what you and I spend our money on, rather it's about stopping serious and major crime but cutting off funding. It's becoming increasingly hard as a criminal to transfer money around the place and large amounts get noticed. It has the added benefit of being more convenient and secure.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 07:08:02 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 10, 2021, 05:08:05 pmIs this the so called "poverty porn"?

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 07:11:39 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 10, 2021, 04:39:08 pmIt is not uncommon for communist regimes to redistribute wealth through confiscation. They can confiscate cash, bank deposits, or both.Here is my experience.Before its fall in 1991, Soviet regime removed 50- and 100-rubble notes from circulation with immediate effect. People were given 3 days to exchange to different bank notes, with universal limit of 1000 rubbles per person (for comparison, the cost of Big Mac in McDonalds in Moscow was 3.75 rubbles at the time)However bank accounts are not immune from institutional robbery either. Hyperinflation and denomination are another two tools in government toolbox. The 1000 rubbles that soviet people were allowed to keep a year earlier, could barely buy a lunch by 1992 due to hyperinflation. And it did not matter if you had 1000 in bank or in cash.So yes, authoritarian governments can rob you, no matter if you keep your money in cash or in bank.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 07:52:49 pm
content: The cashless society is a worldwide trend. I really fear it for a number of reasons, some of which having already been exposed here. In theory, we could very well go "cashless" - in the sense of transforming currencies into a purely digital form - while retaining the same "freedom" cash offers. Current cryptocurrencies, for instance, are mostly that. But this is definitely NOT what cashless is going to be. You'll basically have absolutely no control over your own money. Banks, and any organization with the relevant power, will be able to cut your from your money in an instant. You may argue that it's already more or less the case. But it will be a final nail in the coffin.Of course there's also the technical issues - any network problem could mean no access to money. Not what worries me the most actually, but still a major concern.And for those who think the bright side is how this will eradicate criminal activities, I think this is completely deluded.We're just rushing towards Brave new world and 1984 combined, and a large majority doesn't care one bit.That's all for now.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 07:59:54 pm
content: Quote from: Oldtestgear on March 10, 2021, 10:52:49 amTotal non-issue. There are services like Paypal and Venmo, and numerous others would pop up if there was a need. It wouldn't surprise me if an app appeared specifically for events like garage sales and hamfests. I already use Paypal to pay my friends for things, or buy goods off sites like Craigslist. I just ask the seller for their paypal address while I'm standing there looking at the thing and use my mobile phone to send them the money. They get the notification and I leave with my purchase. Painless.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 08:36:26 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 10, 2021, 07:52:49 pmYes, I agree with this, and how about those of us that simply do not want this for varying reasons. Not that I carry a lot of cash on me at any given time, but if I want to pay someone in cash, I can go get the cash out of the bank and pay if I want. To me, it is not about convenience, although it is convenient not to carry cash, but freedom to pay either wayIchoose.Just my 2 cents...

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 09:55:33 pm
content: Vendrs like it because they can debit your account monthly for a service. Also, creditors can seize money they are owned out of debtors accounts, at least in theory.Australia is heading towards a debit card for people on public assistance, I read the other day. It will step in and manage their bank accounts and if they apply they can have their parole lifted, although its claimed that it will be hard for people to escape ( for example, see the web page of an Austrlian opponent of the cashless debit cards.https://www.facebook.com/notowelfarecard/) thus easy money from small fees which add up contributes to keep the poor in a predatory situation. Fees feeding a proliferation of third party management companies. (who will get a percentage of their income for "managing" it. ) There is a huge proliferation of these companies it seems, in the UK and Australia and soon the US. who take one percent here and two percent elsewhere , basically insider corporations get free money for doing something that is automated and implemented in software..mostly so the cost is a taking from poor people. Why cant the government do it? The GATS services agreement, of course, ended that - it would be taking the food off the health insurance companies plates.. It prohibits any new noncommercial services, and privatizes existing ones, the classic example is public healthcare in the United States. which is banned because the GATS rules deemed it a trade barrier. - ts rules on financial services mandate governments to allow any and all new 'innovative financial services', no matter how little sense they make. They can't refuse to allow them. even if usurious. Subsequently corporations receive an entitlement for it to continue, unless another more profitable one springd up in its place. Many involve surveillance and/or loss of privacy. One take away we should consider is the fact that the more digital a process seems the more fraud becomes endemic in it. Mortgage fraud is a good example, it skyrockted in the 2990s in no small part because a proliferation of online lenders. Many of them were running moprtgage fraud operations but none were ever really prosecuted. These large, well known national firms were systematically stealing peoples houses, typically their largest investment. Then these loans were used to defraud others by puffing up the values of the banks in what amounted to a huge Ponzi scheme. No matter how just their case was the simple fact that so much fraud was occurring enabled these fraudsters in a big way. It was an explosion of criminality. And its even more outrageous that they got away with it. Something similar happened in the UK a few years earlier with the BCCI scandal. It seems there are problems in the system that are driving vast increases in what is calledsystemic risk.zmor on this affair here:https://info.publicintelligence.net/The-BCCI-Affair.pdfand here:http://visar.csustan.edu/aaba/bccipage.htmlThese kinds of crimes are why they claim they need a cashless system globally in finance. But I have little confidence that setting up a system with the potential of being so intrusive, alone would lead to a reduction in the pervasive system of offshore banks, and shell companies, that are making the rich so unaccountable to anybody.--------Quote from: tpowell1830 on March 10, 2021, 08:36:26 pm

author: duckduck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 10:02:51 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on March 10, 2021, 04:02:27 amI have been there when I was younger and dumber and poorer. A debit to your checking account with a low balance takes it to a negative balance and then the bank issues an "overdraft" fee that is twice what the grocery store would charge for a bounced check (someone at the bank is driving a Ferrari because of that grand idea), and then the bank charges a "low balance" fee. Yes, a blizzard of fees for poor people that do not manage their money like a pro. It is very stressful and humiliating. Now you go get a payday loan to clean up the bank situation and buy food and gasoline until payday and you have stepped out of the frying pan and into the fire. It's enough to make a man want to change his name to "Jacques" and join the Foreign Legion.EDIT:As one of the posters above mentioned, the goal of "going cashless" is not about stopping crime (crime will always find a way), but about forcing everyone to put 100% of their money in the bank where negative interest rates can be applied. If the banks charged you a fee (instead of paying you interest) to keep your money in an account, you'd just buy a safe and a gun and keep all of your money in cash at home. With cashless, there is no option to keep your money out of the bank, other than by buying crypto-currency, gold, and/or huge stacks of obsolete HP test gear. I see that some members of this forum are way ahead of the pack here.EDIT EDIT:Negative interest rates are a way to incentivize people to not save money, but rather to buy goods or invest it in the stock market. This helps the uber-wealthy. "If it doesn't make sense, someone is probably making money off of it."

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 10:06:19 pm
content: As mentioned earlier, banks want more for providing the service of offering accounts. Maybe it will be negative interest, maybe it will be profits from selling information about where you go or what you do derived from an RFID tag bearing card you must carry and use todoanything. (or a phone, which likely will have to be kept on) . Everything you do will involve micropayments, and micromanagement of your digital destiny. each one bearing a location and exact time attached to it. Just driving down a street will involve dozens of micropayments and opportunity for them to deny payment, and generate a fee. Maybe if the payment is denied your car will pull over at te side of the street, lights blinking, immobilizing you. Too many fees and your car is impounded. (unless you have diplomatic immunity, its my understanding) Anybody who lives in a city while owning a car is familiar with the difficulty of avoiding this trap, brought about bny having outstanding parking tickets . They alternate rules on parking by days so people have to keep moving their cars. Renting an off-street parking space may cost you as much as a small apartment would. This is really a great time to be a well connected transnational corporation.Quote from: tpowell1830 on March 10, 2021, 08:36:26 pm

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 01:35:50 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 10, 2021, 06:48:46 pmOne can say the same thing about mass surveillance of electronic communications: the government don't care what you and I say, rather it's about stopping serious crime. Sure, they don't care... until they do. It only takes a single despotic political decision to start scrutinise everything you spend on, the things you say and with whom. This leads to enacting legislations to enforce conditions in your daily routine or spending activity. Just remember, what you say and buy today might be declared illegal tomorrow. When there is a permanent record of your communications and spending habits, I can pretty much guarantee this information will be exploited by someone, and used as a leverage against you, or use it to profit somehow at your expense.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 08:04:30 am
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on March 11, 2021, 01:35:50 amI honestly think mentality like this is damaging. Everyday things that you and I buy, say or do won't be made illegal tomorrow. Nor is legislation enacted quickly or as far-reaching as you describe. It just doesn't happen. Hell, even our cloud data laws are out of date (and are currently in the process of being reviewed). I've seen the drafts and even then, it doesn't go far enough.Surveillance, certainly in this country, will never impact 99.99% of residents.

author: AndreZheng
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 08:21:04 am
content: ;)I don't use cash for several years already. In China

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 08:57:55 am
content: I'm all for keeping cash, mainly because going cashless would severely affect the very poor and homeless often don't have bank accounts. It would also be bad for some charities who receive donations from people donating spare change.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 09:10:50 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on March 11, 2021, 08:57:55 amOn the contrary, I don't think that's an excuse, but I guess that comes down regional differences.Here, in Australia, if you're a welfare recipient, you receive payment into your bank account. To hold a bank account costs nothing. Anyone can sign up for one. How you use it is a matter for yourself. I'm not suggesting that cash will disappear in our lifetime and it will certainly have its place in the future, but its use is declining quickly. In 2019, Australians used cash for about 27% of all purchases and that has been dropping significantly year-on-year. Likewise the sizes of cash payments have fallen significantly and this is all largely due to consumer demand. Cash is still an option, but more and more people are moving away from it. Like I said earlier, I use cash maybe 3-5 times per year, if that. Almost everything I use money for is electronic and so much more convenient. I have a bucket full of coins that I haven't touched for years. I have no need.https://www.rba.gov.au/publications/bulletin/2020/jun/cash-use-in-australia-results-from-the-2019-consumer-payments-survey.htmlI foresee cash going the same way as cheques did many years ago... still valid forms of payment (for most things) but rarely used by most people.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 10:16:21 am
content: As far as I'm aware, one needs to have a residential address to have a bank account and receive benifits, which is no good for those who are homeless, because they can't afford the rent.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 12:38:18 pm
content: Norbert Haring has a lot to say about this "war on cash" as he puts it. They held a consultation, but like always its shambolic. They don't rally care what people think nor are they about to change any of their plans because what people say.The ECB would (not really) like to know your opinion on the digital euro – let them know.Here is Germany's non-attemptDoes it seem as if they want any actual debate on the possible problems? No.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 12:53:13 pm
content: I think that is the main intent, to non-disruptively keep the homelesss and/or poor out of cities shopping ares and commercial or gathering places.Quote from: Zero999 on March 11, 2021, 10:16:21 amYou neglect that the poor who can afford to live in nicer cities are usually too wealthy to receive any assistance. At least thats the way it is here. The only states that are providing a safety net are the mopre expensive ones. If somebody successfully applies for and receives help with many problems, the social work system likely thinks they are probably cheating somewhere because they designed the system to refuse help to anybody with enough assets to (in their eyes) afford them. Like when you are over 50 the cost of health insurance rises so astronomically. Most shift workers dont make enough to realistically afford it. The same with rents in the areas the jobs remain. They are so high on the coasts, the cost of living is extemely high and the poor are unusually skillful if they can access most benefits because the income disqualifies them. Going cashless will let government claw back money paid to somebody who turns out to be ineligible. After the money is clawed back for a hospital stay then the providers rebill at the uninsured rate, which is higher.When women come in for maternity care, hospitals bill the child as well as her now. That means that if ones mother has a particularly difficult pregancy and ends up with a six figure bill (its not uncommon for the uninsured to end up with large bills when a mother has something like a breech birth or an ectopic pregnancy or pre gestational diabetes. Well, when that child turns 18, they will inherit this bill in their name.We have a massive number of people who are carrying around huge student debts they may never be able to pay off. A cashless system would garnish or simply deduct all the money they got in income until all those debts were paid off. .Here is his web page on the digital euro:https://norberthaering.de/en/money-finance/digital-euro-en/Here is a web page from the Bundesbank on thishttps://www.tab-beim-bundestag.de/de/untersuchungen/u50200.htmlYes, I suspect giving debtors people anincentiveto pay back creditors (not being able to do any of the activities of a modern society)I suspect anticipation of a future that is impossible to sustainably navigate for a larger and larger number of people is a driver opf much of this policy. Profit always has to be the main priority for governments. for investors. Here in the US with so much student loan debt -that will be harsh.Automated roads and autonomous cars will likely help enforce this massive debt collection system too. They simply wont be able to drive on toll roads when ones balance is negative.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 02:53:16 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on March 10, 2021, 04:57:32 pmThat did something quite close to that in the late 1970s or early 80s but it didn't work. The USG issued cards or something of that nature that could only be used in grocery stores but many unscrupulous store owners would simply buy up the cards for CASH and then get the full face value back from the government but they only paid about 30 to 40% of the face value to the poor. Also the "poor" frequently used the cards to buy junk food, beer, cigarettes, etc in grocery stores with their cards. I used to know a guy that owned a TV shop and poor people would come in and buy a TV and used their cards to pay for it. The way that they worked it was that the shop owner would set a price and then the two of them would go to a grocery store and the owner would pick out steaks or other expensive items equal to the purchase price, and the card owner would pay for all of it using their card.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 03:01:37 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on March 11, 2021, 08:57:55 amNot really. The US Gov now issues "EBT" debit cards to welfare recipients and they can use them exactly like any other debit card. They don't need to have a bank account or even a fixed address to use the cards. I'm not certain but I think that many people are also getting their Covid-19 "Relief" payments the same way.Also in the US, if you have any kind of regular income, income that you geteverymonth, and you have it Direct Deposited to their bank, many banks will give you a free account.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 06:43:38 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on March 11, 2021, 03:01:37 pmWe have something similar here, although I think it's still being trialled in certain areas, but it works (some people are unhappy with it for obvious reasons). Many people who are on benefits have no idea how to budget and are their own worst enemy when it comes to handling money. Hell, even people will full-time employment and earn decent money find it difficult to budget or don't budget at all. But that's on the individual, the system can only do so much to hold the hands of people and frankly, that's the way it should be. However if you're on Government assistance, my view is that how you spend it should be controlled (at least to some degree). Welfare is by far the biggest expense when it comes to where tax dollars go and my opinion is that it shouldn't be wasted on cigarettes, alcohol and other non-essentials when the recipient can't afford it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 06:45:30 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on March 11, 2021, 03:01:37 pmIn my case two different Covid "stimulus" payments were deposited directly in my bank account, I didn't even realize I had gotten them until I happened to check my account at some point. Apparently I earned just below the cutoff in 2019 and that qualified me for a payment. Didn't really make much sense to me, I earned more in 2020 than I ever have before but I wasn't going to complain about getting "free" money.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 06:47:34 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 11, 2021, 06:43:38 pmIs it? In the US by far the biggest expense is military, it absolutely dwarfs everything else. I don't know how much we spend on welfare but I think it's essentially a drop in the bucket.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 06:52:05 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 11, 2021, 06:43:38 pmWhat are you classing as welfare? Are you including things like pensions, that people have paid into? Most country's biggest state spending area is either the military, health care, or education.

author: Echo88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 06:54:45 pm
content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending_in_the_United_States#/media/File:2018_Total_US_Government_Spending_Breakdown.png

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 07:01:15 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 11, 2021, 06:47:34 pmNot according to this (a bit outdated though - fiscal year 2011):“83 overlapping federal welfare programs that together represented the single largest budget item in 2011—more than the nation spends on Social Security, Medicare, or national defense. The total amount spent on these 80-plus federal welfare programs amounts to roughly $1.03 trillion. Importantly, these figures solely refer to means-tested welfare benefits. They exclude entitlement programs to which people contribute (e.g., Social Security and Medicare).”And this is only federal level programs.https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/CRS%20Report%20-%20Welfare%20Spending%20The%20Largest%20Item%20In%20The%20Federal%20Budget.pdf

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 07:19:50 pm
content: Re: U.S. Economic Stimulus Payments, first one came in check form, second one came in cash card form. Both could be, and were, deposited to my bank account.Cash is still perfectly viable for day-to-day stuff in the US almost everywhere. One example where cash is clearly still king is under emergency conditions. When a significant chunk of Texas was without power, even the more essential places (e.g. grocery stores) could only operate on a cash-only basis. Plastic was worthless even if the store had a generator, since the underlying infrastructure was down as well.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 07:31:09 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 11, 2021, 06:45:30 pmThe problem with "Free" money is that someone eventually has to pay for it! Maybe our children or maybe our great grandchildren but sooner or later it has to be paid for. With interest! I still haven't touched the money that I got from the first Covid payment last year so, to me, getting the payment and then having to pay for it in the future is like taking out an expensive loan when I didn't need it and just sitting on the money but having to eventually pay a good deal of interest on the loan.My understanding of the Covid payments is that the US Gov send out the payments the same way that people received their tax refunds and/or other payments from the Gov. If you have your tax refund or Social Security direct deposited then they sent the Covid payment the same way. But if you don't have a bank account and you receive EBT or other government assistance then they sent the payment via a debit card to your last known address. I think that that's why so many didn't receive their Covid payments as soon as they wanted to and are nowhowling. They didn't have a bank account so their payments couldn't be DD'd and they also probably didn't get EBT or other payments so they hadn't keep their current address on file with the USG so their payments took a while to get to them.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 07:46:43 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on March 11, 2021, 07:19:50 pmYes, it reminds me of the "LeCloud is burning" thread. Living off of CCs and having no cash; or storing all of your programs and data on the Cloud, both are convenient but they have significant risks!OTOH as I pointed out earlier in this thread, it's getting to the point in the US that even if you have cash, you may not be able to spend it due to the ignorance of the store's staff!Legallyyou can make any purchase but in practice, not so much.When I was in college I tried to make a purchase at the college's computer store but they only took payments via check or credit card since they didn't want to deal with cash. If you insisted on paying cash then you had to go to the store, pick out your items, get a bill for them, then walk across campus to the cashier's office and show them the bill and pay them and then take your receipt back to the store to pick up your items. And that was 30+ years ago, the cash payment situation has gotten worse since then.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 08:30:06 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on March 11, 2021, 07:31:09 pmIts amazing how long these things can go on. They never just go away. The UK government paid off their second world war debt in 2006. They only recently starting paying off the bonds that financed the first world war. The debt incurred by the 19th century naval actions to end the maritime slave trade was only recently paid off. There are still debts from the South Sea Bubble in 1720, and the Napoleonic wars being serviced. However, if the interest rate is low enough, the effects of inflation eventually make the debt look small.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 09:31:35 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 11, 2021, 06:47:34 pmYep. By far the biggest spend in Australia:https://budget.gov.au/2019-20/content/overview.htm

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 09:52:07 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on March 11, 2021, 03:01:37 pmI didn't know about that. Can anyone put money on one of those cards? Suppose I want to help a friend, or family member, who's fallen on hard times and is on the street. Could I put money on to their card?Then there are other instances when I could see this introducing additional costs. A charity I volunteer has an annual summer event, where they sell plants, cakes, coffee, pony rides etc. They don't have any card readers, or anything, as it's not worth it for an annual event, so only take cash. What would we do if they scrapped cash? How much would it cost for us to hire card readers? If the bank could loan them to us for free and not charge per transaction, then great, but I don't that'll happen. It'll just add to the cost.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 10:03:07 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 11, 2021, 06:43:38 pmI don't think this is even remotely true.Here is a PDF graphic on where US tax money really goes in 2021.A lot of it goes to military, we spend far more than any ofthe other countries in the world. Around 40% goes to social services. Less than many other countries, percentage wise. Lots of the money is spent in various forms ofcorporatewelfare. Many of the largest US companies get away with paying no taxes.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 11:30:51 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on March 11, 2021, 10:03:07 pmIt may not be in the US, but in other parts of the world, such as Australia, it's very much true. Every year when we complete our tax returns, we get an individual breakdown of how much of our tax dollars was spent where. Welfare is always at the top of the list.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2021, 01:29:14 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 11, 2021, 08:04:30 am"I'm not doing anything wrong, so it doesn't affect me. I have nothing to hide, so why should I care. The stuff I buy will be of no interest to anyone."I would say mentality like that is even more damaging.Apathy towards privacy just enables abuse with those who have access to data. Legislation may not be enacted quickly, but its implementation is incremental. Just look back in the last 20 years, not just here, but also internationally, and you will find that governments and law enforcement are becoming more intrusive and hostile towards measures that implement privacy. And we just keep surrendering our data willingly to authorities with the misplaced implicit trust that our information will never be abused.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2021, 02:17:11 am
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on March 12, 2021, 01:29:14 amNo, I absolutely agree. However most people have their priorities backwards. I have nothing (illegal or embarassing) to hide yet I still expect a reasonable right to privacy. I can guarantee that the vast majority of those complaining about "mass surveillance" are the very same people who voluntarily share their personal information, photographs, location information etc... with companies such as Facebook, Instagram, Apple and sometimes even the general public for all to see.I don't agree that governments have been hostile to privacy at all. Take your favourite encrypted messaging application for example, laws have been strengthened to allow government agencies and police to access this information under certain circumstances, but those circumstances will never apply to almost all of us. If you have your phone seized because you committed a serious crime, well that's completely on you. What the government do in order to access that information after the fact is fair game. I would say over the past 20 years, access to private information has become more difficult, not easier.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2021, 02:49:41 am
content: Anyone who claims to know how US money is going to be spent in 2021 is not only predicting the future of a VERY non-typical year that mostly hasn't happened yet, but is just plain wrong. The number changed by $1.9 trillion today, as a matter of fact. Last year wasn't typical either.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2021, 03:39:27 am
content: I saw this happen in the Coachella Valley years ago. Two men were sitting in car in the street. It was 120 degrees in the shade. They were watching a very big house. I went out there to give them some ice water, since their car's air conditioner was working hard. They didn't tell me who they were but it became obvious that they were cops of some kind, the next day when other federal police arrived and started carting the contents out of the house. I got the impression the neighbors were in arrears on their taxes. That was a very strange neighborhood. None of those rich people there have normal jobs. They live in a different world.It was a kind of neat place anyway. Very pretty. The weather was unbelievably hot and dry. If you spilled water on the ground it would just dry up right away. If you washed clothes and took a shower, you and clothes both would be dry seconds after you got out. It was a real desert. Usually hot as could be. One of the hottest places in the US.Quote from: blueskull on March 10, 2021, 05:19:33 amThee is a law that lets them take your tax returns if you have outstanding student loans, I'm sure they will have the same thing for any other judgement against somebody that comes from the government. Say soebody is stealing from you and you fight it, cant afford $00 hour legal fees, and you lose. Then you will be hig with a large bill for somebody elses legal fees just for standing up for what are in thory your rights. I think some countries wont let you leave the country or travel if you are in that situation. Right now many Americans with large student loans have left the country, they went to places like India or Africa and got married, got jobs, had children. A normal life. They wont be allowed to get away with that. The banks want their money. The day isnt far off when they will start hunting down those poor people literally to the ends of the earth. They have a huge PR campaign trying to get public opinion to be for it. Most people aren't. They have all either had student loans themselves or had friends who were harassed by the automated debt collectors.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2021, 03:48:45 am
content: Calm down! No one said that they could predict the US Gov's future spending. But we do know what their past spending record is like and wheremostof that money went. Also I doubt any budget year is a "typical" year. Between wars, hurricanes and other natural disasters, fuel embargoes, inflation, crashing financial markets, massive numbers of illegal immigrants that have to be dealt with and many other unforeseen events, the budget is never "normal".

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2021, 05:39:17 am
content: Actually someone did, but I guess you didn't read it. Don't worry, I might have been triggered a little by one of our regular conspiracy theorists, but I'm not foaming at the mouth.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2021, 10:18:30 pm
content: Cashless algorithms arbitrarily taking out debtors deposited money evokes Australia's robodebt debacle for me..

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2021, 11:08:57 pm
content: OK, would you care to explain to the rest of us what Robodebit is and how it's relevant? No, I didn't sit thru the whole 18 minutes of two talking heads chit chatting.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 02:44:40 am
content: It's super creepy . My gut feeling is telling me that Its not just coincidence that all this stuff is happening at the same time.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 02:47:00 am
content: @Stray Electron. I am not Australian so I an sure I would leave something crucial out. Why dont you look at some of the dozens of Yountube videos on the Robodebt/centrelink debacle.Quote from: Stray Electron on March 12, 2021, 11:08:57 pmUse Youtube's search function.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 07:40:45 am
content: Well like with everything there are pro's and cons and it would need implementing very well or it would descend into chaos.I think a lot will start to hinge on mobile phones rather than cards as a mobile phone being a computer can do so much more like handle transactions without an internet connection because it knows what is in your account and syncs with the bank once it reconnects. Cash and electronic have costs, here in the UK there is growing concern with the amount of ATM's being taken out and banks disappearing from the highstreets so you can't walk in and take cash out at the counter. Now that we live in the panacea of "everything is free" we fail to see the actual costs. I would rather pay my bank a monthly fee rather than be charged by stealth, at the end of the day we must pay somehow. electronic transactions have fees to sellers, so sellers add these to their prices and so the customer is paying the transaction fees but are unaware of it. And this just applies to everything so every time you spend money on your card you are paying to have use that card, not the seller.Cash costs money to manage as well. The notes have to be printed and coins minted. The notes in particular have to be carried around the country from the mint to the banks to the ATM's and then back to the bank again and then the dealing with notes that need turning in for replacement. Business customers are usually charged to deposit cash now so like with electronic transactions they will have to add this cost to their prices. There is no way out and it's the cheapest and safest that wins out.The problems will be around the communications infrastructure that will have to be reliable to connect everywhere where money is to be spent and yes there is the problem of people adopting it which is unlikely for many. My father still works with cash and does not have a "smart" phone and I dread to think what a mess he will get himself into with one when he rings me up and reports that emails vanished from his computer whilst he was reading them but not touching anything.....Cards will certainly work for most of us and if the infrastructure is made more reliable less of a worry, ultimately if there is a total disaster your money may be worthless anyway and still inaccessible as cash unless you are going to walk around with all the cash you own on your person which is impractical.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 09:45:25 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 10, 2021, 05:19:33 amThey send out thousands of traffic violation court verdicts per day. Together with fines. From the speeding cameras.If you appeal, they have to review your evidence. Thousands a day.For my last one, I got a canned "nope" as reply, I'm sure they haven't even read what I wrote.The Dutch government just resigned, because they accidentally bankrupted 20000 families due to some clerical errors. This kind of shit happens every time.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 10:05:00 am
content: Quote from: Simon on March 13, 2021, 07:40:45 amYeah I wouldn’t worry about this. Smartphone based payments just emulate actual real cards. They work entirely offline. The only issue is charged batteries.At this point I don’t carry a wallet any more. I have had zero problems for two years. I have a card as well but i rarely use it. I don’t even remember the last time I made a cash transaction. I think it was for an eBay sale on my door step.In fact my watch can make payments. It doesn’t have a cell modem in it. It generates a one time card number for the device which you can dispose of any time you wish. So not only is it fine offline but it’s more secure than your usual card which takes 5 days to get a replacement for it it’s compromised.The big problem as you mention is clearing and processing but I’ve actually seen the stuff that runs this and it’s not something you need to worry about. Literally it has the highest reliability investment in it there is because if it does go down everything goes to shit instantly and the people running it get reamed by the authorities.As for the usefulness of cash, it’s bits of paper and metal. The contract for validity is entirely informal. If at some point the world collapses it’s bits of paper and metal and that’s it. You have bigger problems to worry about than swapping those for things.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 10:15:12 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 13, 2021, 10:05:32 amIn the UK they come to your house and take your stuff eventually. That’s a cashless transaction too!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 10:16:03 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 13, 2021, 10:05:32 amUsually debt collector companies are employed, you will probably be paying for their fees as well. They can take your goods away from you but there is a bare minimum that cannot be taken away as essential items like a bed or cooker. This is standard practice in many countries for any form of debt. This is done though under a court order, it's not a free for all, it's the last resort as it's the most expensive payment processing out there to convert the goods back to money.I invest my money with peer to peer lending. Often a company owner/director will forfeit the advantage of the separated finances between company and personal and give a personal guarantee of repayment on a loan that the company alone did not have the collateral for. Yea, I've cast my vote in the past to seize the family home of the deceased director when the loan defaulted and the wife is protesting on emotional grounds to keep possession of a house worth so much it could be sold to pay off the loan and buy a smaller house. I suspect that if she still refused to budge some sort of enforcement would be employed to remove her.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 11:17:14 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 13, 2021, 10:39:36 amThe other consideration is, if you're facing bankruptcy, one should take a good long look at themselves. The individual is almost always to blame, not someone else. Its a tough lesson to learn, but not one that doesn't have light at the end of the tunnel. Bankrupt does not equal homeless, nor does it equal unable to live. In fact, personal insolvency rates in Australia fell by over 23% in 2019-2020 across all states and territories. It's as low as it has been since around 1999-2000. Once the stats come out for this current financial year, I reckon we'd be looking at instances not seen since the early to mid 1990's.https://www.afsa.gov.au/sites/default/files/annual_personal_insolvency_summary.xlsx

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 01:20:25 am
content: Here in the US it varies from state to state. Debtors prisons are coming back in a big way. Generall they want debtors to sell off all fungible assets.Any car or real property definitely gets taken unl;ess they are in Florida or Texas where all kinds of crooks get to keep up to $10 million in a house. They cant touch it. Then they can sell it later. .Quote from: blueskull on March 13, 2021, 10:39:36 amIt seems likely to me whenever the kleptocracy is rising globally as it is today.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 01:25:42 am
content: They impound cars off the street for unpaid parking tickets. They have an automated OCR car plate reader running all the time digitizing license plates seen by the car and running queries on each of them automatically If they get a hit on any of them they call the tow truck to go get it.Quote from: bd139 on March 13, 2021, 10:15:12 am

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 01:41:59 am
content: it sucks, those machines have problems. cash is great you have 200$ in your pocket you can do anything you want even in the worst situations.power outages? network problems? equipment malfunction? simple trade and garage sale? no problemits like apple, they try to make everything skinny and fit into skinny jeansthe only thing I see when someone is trying to push cashless is some high level bullshit artist telling me how reliable the machines are and that they never heard of a complaint and that its perfectcash is how you don't get mauled by the shops. yea when you buy lunch and you got cash in your pocket you won't do anything stupid because you feel it going down instead of thinking 'whats another couple of dollars'. whos going bankrupt now? usually people that spend way too much with plastic... try pulling a dollar from someones handWhat happens when you go to the bank? you start thinking about money and where you stand, its a reminder. credit card use is practically like a day dream.. where did that $300 go?

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 02:42:38 am
content: I'm very not a fan of the idea of cashless society, but unfortunately I think it's coming everywhere. It's what they are pushing with agenda 2030, great reset etc... not only cashless, but 1 world currency ruled by a few large corporations and government (probably UN).The issue with this is how they'll be able to track every little thing. Not to mention it will make business inaccessible for very small business as they won't have the budget to setup the necessary infrastructure to process payments. Ex: needing a credit card processor, merchant account etc... all those things tend to have monthly fees. Or even simple things like yard sales etc, that's pretty much not going to be possible anymore. Not to mention since everything will be tracked you'll probably be expected to pay all sorts of taxes on even very minor transactions, where the legwork, accounting etc of paying the taxes would just not make it worthwhile.Not to mention all the other things mentioned like power or network outages etc.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 07:54:42 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on March 14, 2021, 02:42:38 amBoth those statements are rubbish! There are no plans for a worldwide currency, we have the Euro fiasco to set us straight there.Small merchants shut out? really? I'm a tiny business, I have never ever dealt in cash. I'm so small that when card processors contact me offering their services the answer is generally no. I use paypal and stripe or you can do a bank transfer. Bank transfers are free, Paypal charge me 3.4% and stripe charge me 1.5%, without them I would never have started in business, cashless has made my business like many others that would not be operating if it were not for cashless means of payments and the internet. Cash is not free as I explained earlier. Cash machines need making, installing, maintaining and someone has to be paid to come out and fill them up. The notes need printing and distributing and returning and counting, it's a costly pain in the ass. Having a bank you can walk into costs money, you want to pay for all that? be my guest to but don't complain about the cost.As people do not carry cash so much even small businesses at things like fates can take payment by card, maybe they can now sell larger value items as people don't go to fates with big wads of cash so if you want to sell something expensive you are out of luck if you don't have a card reader.I think cash should be around for as long as people want it. I generally have some cash on me but generally use card.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 09:50:23 am
content: Yep. There is no chance of a world wide currency.You can tell which countries they legalised marijuana in.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 10:46:36 am
content: I'm in NZ and I've not carried cash with me for at least 4 years.I do have some at home and a little in the car just in case, but I don't recall even having to use that in the past few years.I have 'used' cash in the last 4 years but that was me going to an ATM to withdrawal cash for something specific, not me carrying cash around.

author: Sigurd
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 11:24:54 am
content: I live in 'straya, I went to a coffee shop today that I had noticed but not gone to before. I took my phone and some money and walked out into the rain, I ordered a coffee, they wanted my name and then they said they took card only. There weren't any other customers around and I had held up a $5 note for a $4 coffee, I wanted to say "I'm the only person here!" and "legal tender!" but I just said ok and rolled my eyes to myself at the ridiculousness of it all. You'd think one of the three perky idiots behind the counter would have wanted my business.It's what, $10-$30 to put through a bitcoin transaction? Crypto solves nothing.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 11:30:01 am
content: Quote from: Simon on March 14, 2021, 07:54:42 amYeah, but the USA and Canada, seems to have some sort of backwards ass banking system with check for paying salary, tiny regional banks, magnetic cards, and credit everywhere.You tell them that we have contactless RFID payment by phone, and its like space technology to them.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 12:01:23 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on March 14, 2021, 02:42:38 amThat has existed for a long time already. At the moment 75% of the world trade is paid in US Dollar or Euro with an almost 50/50 split. IMF is kind of the steering commity which also keeps reserves in various currencies.QuoteOfcourse it is. There are many micro-payment platforms. You can use your mobile phone for that. Over here I can send a payment request from a mobile phone and the other person can pay immediately. The money goes straight into my bank account. I'd say it is more convenient compared to Paypal and no direct fees (the service comes with the bank account and is supported by all major banks).

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 12:05:06 pm
content: You can get a card reader from paypal. It connects to your phone and you can take payments anywhere your phone can get a signal.

author: Sigurd
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 01:54:50 pm
content: Paypal clips the ticket boths ways and aren't to be trusted in general - if you have a problem with them they will just stonewall you.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 01:58:18 pm
content: Quote from: Sigurd on March 14, 2021, 01:54:50 pmWe are not discussing if the companies that run the technology are any good as companies but the feasibility of the technology.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 01:47:05 am
content: There are cheaper alternatives to Paypal, for example Square. You can buy an NFC/chip reader for $60. They charge 1.9% on card payments (versus 2.6% Paypal charge).

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 02:04:57 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 14, 2021, 12:01:23 pmThe issue with this is it requires both parties to have a phone, and the same app. Look at a FB marketplace type scenario. With cash, you show up to that person's house, hand over the cash, take the item, and leave. If they get rid of cash now you have to fiddle around with installing some app, setting up an account etc... and since it's tracked, the government is also going to want a cut from that money.I guess there is always Interac etransfer. Most banks do support that. So you could just pay in advance before going to get the item. But still, for small non business transactions nothing really beats cash. I always try to pay cash at a small business as well, since with interac/credit card they need to pay a fee per transaction.

author: TopLoser
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 02:15:18 am
content: I moved to France from England 9 months ago. Since I’ve been here I’ve not used cash at all, not a single cent. The only time I had a need for cash was for a coin for a supermarket shopping trolley, but I just used 2 hand baskets instead.Contactless, debit card, ApplePay, PayPal, all have worked flawlessly at all times. Wouldn’t even consider keeping cash on me now, and haven’t for 9 months.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 02:18:25 am
content: Quote from: TopLoser on March 15, 2021, 02:15:18 amI guess you never made impact at the bottom of the stairs. Good to see you're still alive across the wall.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 08:44:32 am
content: Quote from: TopLoser on March 15, 2021, 02:15:18 amThat is pretty much the situation here (although you can buy "tokens" for shopping trolleys which attach to your keys).Most card terminals here are backed by cellular data, so even if a venues own broadband connection goes down, there is a backup. I do recall once some payment networks were experiencing problems with card payments on a state/national level, but the terminals seemed to revert to some kind of fallback mode where provided that the correct PIN/valid card was supplied, the payment was honoured from the customers perspective, but were queued in the store's terminal until connection was re-established at which point the customer's bank account was debited. In the case where the account did not have enough money, negative balances were possible (and most banks will hit the card holder with an additional fee). I don't think this works for card-not-present transactions however.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 08:15:08 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on March 15, 2021, 02:04:57 amA friend of mine who is from China just told me a horrendous story about somebody who got into an argument with one of the people who hold a secret official position in addition to their official one (I think she was trying to explain the former Soviet concept of the commissar, or political appointee.. similar to the named, or nomenklatura, they also used to be.But anyway, this one guy who had it in for the person whose was subjected to this abuse apparently deleted or somehow modified this persons official citizen number. The result of this was that he lost everything and was blacklisted from everything. All his businesses could not do business, he could not even ride public transport because he could not show the barcode showing he was healthy on his smartphone. There was no way or place to challenge or appeal it either. This is what cashless world will be like. All the protections we have will be absent. Many people have already had the experience of having these unaccountable internet companies, who have no officiial means of contacting a human being for customer service. stonewall them.I have been looking at the stories on therobodebt class actionand they are just insanely horrid. These companies were hired based on known to be faulty data, and they went after people often demanding money they did not owe. Many people were harassed so much they committed suicide. The Morrison government does not seem to comprehend the magnitude of what they have done. Hounded poor people to death. I think they are already starting some other programs with the potential to have the same of similar problems. They did the same thing in England (Universal credit) but ut seems nobody sued them, although I had heard of people who died because of it. A chronically ill man, I read, had died from starvation died of starvation.If anybody knows what is driving this horrid trend in these English-speaking governments, why they are doing this. Its not going to get these people jobs or make them healthy. What has changed? I'd like to hear your opinions.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 08:26:01 pm
content: You are making some rather ludicrous links, we are talking about something that we already 95% use, according to you the last 5% will create the like of George Orwells 1986. I fail to see how using cash will protect us from what you talk about. Don't pollute this thread!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 09:29:44 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on March 15, 2021, 02:04:57 amNo and no. Over here this quick payment system works between all major banks. And you don't need the app or a phone. E-mailing a link and paying from a browser also works.And you are not doing small businesses a favour by paying with cash. Depositing cash is expensive nowadays; it costs more compared to an electronic payment.The only places I use cash are small, locals oriented swimming pools in France or Germany which are too cheap to have their payment terminals accept foreign debit cards.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 11:47:29 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 15, 2021, 08:26:01 pmIt's probably not correct to call it pollution, since it's his thread and premise to start with.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 04:54:55 am
content: Of course this is total bollocks story. Party leaders do not sneak at night to databases and change data. The guy was what, an SQL poisoning guru or something, between fulfilling his secret and non secret duties?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 07:34:12 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on March 15, 2021, 11:47:29 pmYes but that is totally not the direction to go. It has nothing at all to do with a cashless society and the links drown are totally unfounded.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 10:32:04 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 16, 2021, 04:15:18 amI think she was just pointing out how horrible a totally cashless surveillance society could become by telling me this story she heard second hand. If you want to read moe about the implications for Europe, Norbet Haerings site has a lot. Here in the US, a book recently came out aboutThe Digital Poorhouse. And that ios a good search term to find out more. (Along with "robodebt" "centrelink" "Better than Cash Alliance" etc. cashless cities. (The credit card companies are ecstatic about this I am sure) Jane Kelsey is a law schoiar at the University of Auckland in New Zealand who has spoken extensively about the business side of it, how the big US internet companies see it, and the trade aspects of it. SHe speaks about "GAFA" (Google Apple Facebook Amazon) as well as about the Chinese ecosystem for online business and credit. I think her insight is very good. Also, Sanya Reid Smith at TWN (Third World Network) is very good. Both have lots of content on YouTube they are featured speaking in (though neither posts content themselves, I am pretty sure, neither does TWN)

author: GodIsRealUnless DefinedInt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 10:37:41 pm
content: A third of my family are Australian, my grandfather on my mother's side lived in regional Victoria and did not even trust his money in the bank. He was one of the iconic people with all his money in cash under his mattress. The value of paper money is nothing in an emergency. Value is in the eyes of the other party and if you had some epic natural disaster and everyone has bought out all the water bottles and emergency supplies and you offer them extremely inflated prices to part with all your cash on hand do you really think the other person will give up survival rations for paper? And cashless, if you present your credit card to someone will they also part with survival rations? In that respect you seem to be in the same boat regardless of the scheme used. Paper money used to be backed by the gold standard, now its backed by wishes and hopes and everyone agreeing it still has some sort of value. Going paperless is a hell of a lot easier to keep track digitally of everyone in the country and their spending habits though.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 10:44:52 pm
content: at if the country your specific money is denominated in is subjected to some judgement that exceds its entire GNP? They are all working overtime to make it possible for anyone to alienate (sell) any right. What this means is that countries money could become worthless suddenly, although its unlikely, it seems we're headed in that direction.I don't trust national politicians any more because Ive seen them lying about things I know and care about. Shamelessly.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 10:46:41 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on March 16, 2021, 10:32:04 pmCan't you take a hint?Just go talk to someone that has made themselves bankrupt to find out how hard doing anything may became! you fall foul of your governing system your life gets hard, it does not matter where you live. A work colleague has just found out how screwed he is because he was furloughed during this pandemic and can't re-mortgage, and our employer is is doing just fine, they just picked the two highest payed in the office and got the government to pay their wages.... now they suffer due to the system of the banks, be it cash or cashless they would have had this problem.

author: GodIsRealUnless DefinedInt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 10:47:55 pm
content: Instant devaluation/worthlessness/hyper inflation has already happened during the war years in our past history and in countries today like Venezuela, its a very real thing when you are faced with it vs armchair discussions.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 10:51:11 pm
content: I feel highly constrained talking about this subject due to Dave's being a youtuber.Dave, please diversify don't put all your eggs in one basket.I think that people should be considering that anything deemed 'too big to fail' especially banks, are a danger to so many people they really do need to be broken up.Also, everybody things that the so called Digital Econony or Digital Trade will create many jobs, enough to make up for the ones it eliminated. Well, they are almost certainly wrong.When I did that kind of work, basically my job was automating processes, and that means automating your own job so it does itself!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 10:51:58 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 14, 2021, 12:05:06 pmI have one of the first models of those, been around a long time now. Used it at a trade show once to sell meters from the stall, worked well.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 10:54:01 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on March 16, 2021, 10:51:11 pmI've been diversified for the last 10 years doing this full time, I'm not a fool. I've said that countless times over the years.Youtube could shut down my channel entirely tomorrow and I'd be fine.Can't say the same for many fellow Youtubers. I can't even convince some of them to even diversify onto Odysee. If they did it a couple of years ago when I told them to they'd be sitting pretty now with a confortable backup and a decent amount of LBC they can convert to fiat.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 11:02:23 pm
content: Quote from: Sigurd on March 14, 2021, 11:24:54 amThere are countless other crypto systems that provide negligable transaction fees."Crypto" isn't just bitcoin.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 11:09:46 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 13, 2021, 11:17:14 amWasn't there a moritorium on insolvency here? That would have duped a lot of people in trouble into a false sense of security for a while instead of fixing whatveer underlying financial problem they had.Yes, it won't be pretty this time around.Then we have the mortgage eviction and foreclosure moratorium that ends in Sepetember. I would not be buying a house in Australia until some time after that date, you might suddenly find a lot fo stock on the market.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 11:22:01 pm
content: Yes, not long ago I read a very good book, it was an account of hyperinflation in Austria during the 20s and 30s..It must have made people nuts.Actually, real inflation is very bad now based on many products people buy. Read this article by a German economist. I find his blog really interesting. There is a lot on this cashless issue there.https://norberthaering.de/en/economics/cost-of-thriving/Quote from: GodIsRealUnless DefinedInt on March 16, 2021, 10:47:55 pmIt happened in India quite recently, read this article on it.A well-kept open secret: Washington is behind India’s brutal Experiment of abolishing most cash

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 11:32:44 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on March 16, 2021, 11:22:01 pmI try to avoid controversial topics like this but the conspiracy theories regarding Indian demonetization and secret US interests, which seem to involve the well-worn tropes of Bill Gates, the Ford Foundation, etc etc are utter rubbish. Stop it. Your source is an idiot and hasn't a clue about Indian politics. Demonetization, which was simply the withdrawal of the Rs. 500 and 1000 notes with the requirement that they be deposited in a short limited time, was a mess for many reasons, but did not and was not intended to eliminate cash from the economic system. There is still cash.

author: GodIsRealUnless DefinedInt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 11:34:23 pm
content: India made my newsfeed today as they are also seem to be going to ban doing anything with any cryptocurrencies.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 12:09:29 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on March 16, 2021, 11:32:44 pmYes, it still exists.A great many Indians don't have bank accounts or even computers, they are poor. (Many cant even read or write thei own name, because of deep poverty has meant that many could not afford school. , but no worries, now with the cashless digital ID system AArdhaar, hey can sign a contract to sign their rights away by blinking. No public education necessary. The middle class are often quite clueless about everything having to do with the poor. And so they often make the biggest most destructive mistakes, imaginable. They are not always intentional. But sometimes they are.A previous US Administration generously traded market access away leaving dozens of service sectors under a cloud. Overnight, they could be globalized like computer services have been.India and the US for a long time, seem to be trading favors that they both seem to be trying to hide. The US wants cheap high skill labor, and India wants the good jobs. The US also wants IP-maximalism beyond our wildest dreams. The huge job trade enabled by US sectoral commitments in the WTO includes engineering services. Another thing the US wants from India is extending patent terms on lifesaving drugs and the elimination of generic AIDS drugs that have saved at least 30 million lives, (see the prize winning film "Fire in the Blood" by Dylan Mohan Grey.) Indian evergreening of drug patents, Australia's pharmacy benefits plan likely is struggling with this IP-maximalism ideology too. If its to be found, its likely on bilaterals.org. Imagine having diabetes and having to pay hundreds, perhaps a thousand dollars a month for insulin to keep yourself alive. When the basic technology to make it was given by its inventor to the world for one dollar. , he wanted it to be non-profit. But the Big Pharma took care of that.. your money or your life, my friend.. This is the world we live in. Also check out the ip-health mailing list at KEIonline.org for more on the access to medicines issue.So the claims by Catalyst's Malick,(he claims Haering misquoted him) dont seem well founded.Also your claim that Haering is not credible seem to be refuted by Haerings position in the world of economics. He has always seemed quite credible to me. Highly subjective, yes. But I have a right to my opinion.;I feel strongly about these issues because we are supposed to live in a democracy, which means that the peoples votes matter. All these things that these insanely rich people are trying to do are tantamount to takings from all of us. The least powerful of us. I don't want to get rid of digital payments, I just think they are trying to do much more than just that., things that will make society a harder more unfair one to poor people. Look at it this way, they snuck this deal to steal democracy behind our backs (at least here in the US) can they be trusted when they did that?So, Norbert Haering's report seems to me toboth be quite consistant with what I know and see, i.e. have a sound basis in fact. Certainly, a lot of what Bill Gates and the WEF and other related self styled global economic governance organizations have been doing is not in the public interest as they would have us believe. Nor is it the product of a democratic consensus. Nothing could be less democratic. The highly undemocratic nature of their agenda is what bothers me. The things they are doing seems to be saying, that democracy - now that people are more aware of the behind the scenes interests trying to manipulate us and the outcomes they seek, has to stop. Thats not fair. Nor is it democratic.Democracy is what gives governments their legitimacy.Not the divine right of kings . Might doesn't make right. Then or now.Corporations are not people either, and do not deserve human rights.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 12:33:40 am
content: Quote from: cdev on March 17, 2021, 12:09:29 amNo, all rubbish. Why talk about Catalyst and the Better than Cash Alliance? Who are they? No mention of PayTM, which had no significant US investment until well after demonetization was over and done? Neither you nor your source have any idea who the real players are or who is influencing who. If you think Bill Gates and other US NGOs somehow have a lot of pull with Modi and the BJP, you and Norbert are utterly clueless.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 01:17:13 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on March 17, 2021, 12:33:40 amIndia's #1 goal is jobs and more business to broker labor on. Or so they say. A third of their GNP cmes from selling 'services' like software, and engineering is one too.I honestly don't really care that much. I just dont want them behind the scenes lobbying to do something that so obviously seems like a truly horrible policy because of the trade deals that lock all deregulation in which we have signed. Like a ratchet or fish trap. or noose, they lock in. . You didnt know that, I bet.TISA is even worse. GATS which is already in place is bad enough, but TISA is potentially much worse. and it would lock all this in forever. We could not get rid of it, by voting because voting can't unlock it. ever. Just like the millions of good jobs -It becomes corporations property to make worse and worse forever. High skill jobs that would be gone for good. Its highly undemocratic and unfair. That's the main point.Haering has a lot more stories on hiswar on cash.. topic tagCash, Kisses and Karaoke: Why the War on Covid must not become a War on CashJune 19, 2020 | Covid-19 is being mobilised by the financial industry to push their War on Cash even further, leaving us ever more ensnared within their private digital money empire, writes Brett Scott in this guest article.War on Cash in Germany: Parliament is Looking for Anti-Cash-ExpertsFebruary 6, 20202 For its project “World Without Cash”, a Bundestag-committee is inviting bids for an expert opinion that should help pave the way to a cashless future and free the population from their “cash obsession”. …Anti-cash warrior Summers finally discloses his enormous conflicts of interestFor years, former treasury secretary and Harvard-professor Larry Summers has been the most prominent voice in favor of getting rid of cash. For years, he has ignored all ethics rules of professional organizations, which demand of professional academics to disclose any information about potential conflicts of interest whenever they publish their findings or take a […]How Mastercard invented the health hazard of cash12 March 2021 | During the corona crisis, Mastercard has been busy peddling the claim that cash poses a major health threat. But this is a campaign that’s been going on for at least eight years. Hakon von Holst took a closer look at its beginnings. At the center: media that trumpet any interest-driven trash […]

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 04:47:52 am
content: Cash does not pose a health threat, so long you have.. change. If you pay exact you will never receive anything back. Contactless and secure, no need to touch a keypad. The clerk is there all day so he has gloves. And you can always tell them to keep the change if your wealthy.This is all because people want things to be flat. The bank should sterilize it for you.A health threat is your bank account going down because you used a credit card for a 5$ transaction in a store and it got stolen.Constantly being vigilant about a bank account because you can't keep track of how many places your working with is stressful (like checking another email account, guess what, its proven unhealthy), and it makes investigations difficult in finding where the theft is occurring because there are so many possibilities. The app is stressful too, because you need to manage it, and they can get hacked too.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 04:54:13 am
content: If Australia goes cashless, where will all the cashed-up bogans go?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 04:55:25 am
content: Quote from: helius on March 17, 2021, 04:54:13 amlike cyberpunk 2077, the bad driving AI is actually programmed to mimic this social group. A sudden interest in computer science from this social groupIt might pay off to keep the status quo instead of forcing the threat to evolve (you damn well know its not gonna change peoples mentality, they will just adapt), you can say the problem is managed sufficiently right now, this is like forcing forest animals learn how to start fires and use knives. What was growling and urination marks turns into arson investigations. Advanced technology does not seem to effect crime very much (i.e. japan), it maybe just makes it a little less visible.

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 05:16:15 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on March 17, 2021, 04:47:52 amThis is 10-20 year old outdated thinking in a near-cashless society like Australia. No one wants to carry around stacks of coins. If you pay with card then you don't need to worry about giving or receiving change when an item is $9.95, and when the transaction is <$100 you don't need to enter a pin or touch anything. When people give me cash it is like "what the hell am I going to do with THIS?" Most places don't charge for using Visa/Mastercard CC, and the ones that do don't charge for EFTPOS (transaction from a savings account). When businesses don't accept any type of card it's like "what the hell kind of shonky operation is this?"I used to put all my coins in the ashtray in my car so I could use them to pay for parking, but now almost all carparks use contactless card for payment, so that isn't required any more either.Have not had my bank account app 'hacked' and I have been with 4 different banks in the last 10+ years of using online banking. Have had 2 cards 'stolen' in that time, and speaking with other people this seems to be on a rise. One card was used on an overseas holiday 2 years prior so I guess it is plausible it was swiped then, the other had no chance of being stolen as it was a debit card I never use in person and only use online via paypal so I would guess it was 'stolen' by someone attempting to put through transactions on random card numbers. I could count the number of times I used those cards to withdrawn cash at an ATM on one hand, and I'm vigilant with checking for card hijackers installed on the atm card slot.Being out of pocket when your card is stolen is unheard of in Australia. In both cases the bank automatically detected the suspicious transaction, investigated/absorbed the costs of the transaction themselves and sent me a new card in the post. Merely an inconvenience for me. Just used the other card (debit or CC) in the meantime.Prior to the pandemic I think it was mostly only boomers and older people who primarily used cash and did banking in person at the branch. The pandemic has encouraged banks to push those customers to online banking (since their brick and mortar branches closed during lockdown) and businesses have pushed people to use card instead of cash.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 07:57:25 am
content: Things are indeed different. My card has been "done" 3 times and I never lost a penny. I now have a credit card for online payments or when buying somewhere I don't trust like a petrol station on a major road which is what coincided with 2 if not all 3 instances.As for it being too easy to spend money on a card versus cash I don't buy this argument either. it's just a matter of understanding and thinking about your actions. With banking apps on phones there is no excuse for not being able to keep track of your money. I don't even do banking on my PC, I just use my phone. My father refuses to do internet banking because he does not understand the internet and how these systems work and seems to think that everyone can see what you do online, the reason for passwords is apparently lost on him.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 12:45:47 pm
content: Quote from: TMM on March 17, 2021, 05:16:15 amI guess I'm an old boomer.I always carry cash, even in my new slimline wallet I've reviewed.And extra if I'm going on holiday, enough to get me home if the system collapses.Not havingsomecash outside the system is just dumb. I'd recommend at least have enough to get you by for a couple of weeks.Also extremely handy to have on hand for paying contractors.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2021, 09:28:40 am
content: You old fart Dave. ;-)

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2021, 11:59:54 pm
content: Agreed, that is exactly what I do. Old habits die hard.Quote from: EEVblog on March 17, 2021, 12:45:47 pm

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 01:03:28 am
content: New Youtuber Brett Scott isblogging about the War on Cash.He points out how we're ceding an essential part of our lives to the banking system, which has all sorts of scary implications.As Bret points out,Cash does not crash.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 04:35:13 am
content: Quote from: cdev on March 19, 2021, 01:03:28 amAssuming that's how he said said it, he is simply wrong. There are quite a few well-documented cases in history where cash has crashed, very badly. Here's one so recent every adult alive that is aware of world events should already know about:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_dollarVideo links are wasted on me -- I won't waste my time watching what you don't consider worth summarizing.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 07:54:13 am
content: Yep. Lmao on cash. I have one of these. And yes that’s genuine.Gold crashes too. It’s just shiny rocks. And it’s bugger all use. What will happen is it’ll have some artificial value until people start getting sick or hungry. Then it’ll taper off fairly quickly.Always line your risk investments against maslow’s hierarchy of needs. While not scientific it represents our base survival instincts. Providing people with security, food and shelter > shiny rocks.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 08:13:07 am
content: the payment machines in food places break down ALL the time. Like last week I ever heard the cashier talking about how the system is down,the boss said just to accept it, then she said well it does not go through all the time, but he said accept it anyway (it was like shady sounding)I can imagine scams where you take out someones business internet and force em to do a transaction on merit. I think it can only tell if it looks good but since the connection is down.. what is it doing exactly?'i need to get this to work to get lunch for people' then chuck all that stuff in the freezerWhat are they gonna do card you for some sandwiches?Does anyone know what those machines do when there is no connection? Is it just looking for a plausible real credit card number based on a hash or something like that?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 01:09:33 pm
content: Usually there's an accepted level of transaction loss. That's why you find that places like that tend to have slightly higher priced items than elsewhere. You end up paying for it. It's a hedge against unreliable customers and unreliable POS kit. At the end of the day it depends on where you are in the world. If your customer is at risk of shooting you (America) then it's probably cheaper to just let them have the stuff and risk it.The other way is paying for decent POS kit and connectivity, which isn't really expensive unless you life in the third world (America).Oh there's a theme here. AmericaHere in the UK the customer is told to piss off or the backup POS unit or mobile network connection is used instead...

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 03:35:30 pm
content: Read this- an estimate of property losses after a severe solar storm takes down the North American electrical grid .Solar Storm Risk to the North American Electric Grid(Lloyds of London)

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 04:15:42 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 19, 2021, 01:09:33 pmWhile some of the 35 countries in America* may be third world, your punch line is apparently not true, given the UK example posted early this this thread:Quote from: themadhippy on March 08, 2021, 09:07:26 pm*I get to interpret your joke, since you used a lazy word.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas"The Americas (also collectively called America)"

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 04:25:33 pm
content: the thing is payment processors are an invisible nuisance. They have nothing to do with the sourcing of the product or the selling of the product. They simply allow it to happen without cash with no added value to the seller or buyer other than making the cashless sale possible. So naturally it's a race to the bottom in an industry that needs rock solid infrastructure and backups which all cost more than the bare minimum required and don't seem to add anything to the service....... until it goes down with no backup.....

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 04:50:00 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 19, 2021, 01:35:45 amCash can get devalued, but it doesn't usually 'crash' overnight, unless the government 'demonetizes' it like India.If there is a societal collapse so bad that the USD is suddenly not viable tender, then gold won't be of much use either. You can't eat it and it won't keep you warm--gold has only been a viable currency where there were actual civilizations. Post-apocalypse you need goats and ammunition.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 04:55:53 pm
content: Money is an artificial construct as is any other token. If i don't need gold in my post apocalyptic life then a single biscuit may be more valuable. The first form of trading was by bartering. When we reached a level of appreciation for gold we came up with convenient measures of it in coinage, the coins were actually worth the metal they were made of, still if the metal was of no use to anyone it would be a worthless token just like our fiat currencies today be they notes and coins or numbers in a computer. You could trade with buttons if everyone agreed to recognise a symbolic value of a button.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 05:05:05 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 19, 2021, 04:55:53 pmOne distinguishing feature of viable currencies is the inability to reproduce (counterfeit) the medium. Gold is scarce and counterfeits can be spotted reasonably easily in most cases.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 05:09:16 pm
content: Yes my example was not meant to include the counterfeiting issue, it's silliness demonstrates how artificial a construct money or any other token system is. Precious metals are only on a higher level as they are natural resources that cannot be faked. A token system is only comparable if it is as hard to fake.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 05:26:29 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on March 19, 2021, 04:15:42 pmNo I mean the United States of America. You have terrible communications infrastructure outside of cities compared to Europe and the Far East and horrible monopolies running it.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 05:39:03 pm
content: We have horrible monopolies running our infrastructure. I detest virgin media but I use their service as out of the choice of 2 infrastructure monopolies that we have each running different systems they are the ones that currently have 2 continuous tracts of copper running from my house to their "stuff". My other choice of monopoly is the open reach phone system which is broken and they won't fix it. Despite our semblance of a competitive market in the phone system this is an illusion, I have had about 4 "phone companies" over the last 10 years and non were interested in fixing the damaged line because they just sell one of the two monopolies services, they have no hand or interest in the actual infrastructure.From the point of view of the actual infrastructure there are only 2. I'm not sure how the mobile system works but ultimately there are not many independent operators of that anymore and no two will build base stations in the same area to cut costs as they then have roaming agreements with each other so there is no redundancy there, if my local mast goes down my phone will loose it's signal, in fact when 2 of the operators merged a "redundant" mast was removed and the quality of phone signal reduced. As it is I have internet off the back of the fact that there is redundancy in there being 2 infrastructure systems. Now if i was a supermarket I would really be playing it safe by connecting to both those systems and using more than one card processor, but why would i have 2 internet contracts and pay fees to 2 card processors just in case one of the card processors and/or internet lines goes down? This is why you have outages. The only way you have a rock solid system is to double up the system infrastructure and costs and have redundancy for a once in a few years event in a system that is not safety critical.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 08:49:48 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 19, 2021, 05:26:29 pmI knew what you meant. But since you were joking, what does it matter? I thought it was rather obvious I was misinterpreting you on purpose. Only fair, right?However, if you were serious, are you serious? Specifically which horrible monopolies are you referring to? Wait, if it's plural, how can it be a monopoly?But yes, I will agree that infrastructure is lacking in our extremely rural areas(assuming you use distance as a measure of extreme, the US has lots more of that than Europe does...as for the Far East, I suspect you are ignoring the genuine rural areas in your assessment). But that's not a monopoly issue, that's an incentive to build vs revenue issue.That said, it'll get better over time. At my sisters house in the boondocks of Missouri (150 miles to nearest metro area), she barely gets cell service. At their other property 15 miles away, they got fiber on the road and to their log cabin last year. Plus Elons starlink service may change everything....sister is on the waiting list for that now.And don't think I didn't notice you ignored the evidence that the UK reality doesn't match what you said.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 09:04:32 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on March 19, 2021, 08:49:48 pm100% serious. Until recently I was working in a fairly senior operations position for a very large US financial org which has problems with a hell of a lot of mobile staff out in the US. We had to rebuild our product to support occasionally connected scenarios. The mobile carriers absolutely are dog shit everywhere unless you're on a major route and the land providers are terrible. And both are from a network perspective either expensive, borked or broken. The worst bit is how inconsistent it can be from town to town and state to state. We had one poor office having to sue AT&T for an infrastructure build out which they failed to deliver for 2 years and kept escalating costs. This was running a few miles to fibre to replace an ageing T1 with an AS400 parked on the end. On a positive note this put is in an amazing situation to market out to countries which are basically deserts with some clumps of houses here and there...The key problems with US infrastructure is quality, maintenance, local monopolies (look at the lobbying against community fibre) and corruption. That's same as rural Zimbabwe.Starlink, let's wait and see. It doesn't add up financially yet.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 09:13:08 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 19, 2021, 05:39:03 pmYou picked the wrong one if you went with Virgin. They are a shit show.The other monopoly is OpenReach which is last mile and quite frankly if you pick a non ass end tier ISP and business contract they are quite good. I'm on Zen Business which is £38.99 a month for a 76Mbit connection and we had a complete cable cut a while ago thanks to some fucktards with a hedge cutter. Picture below. Called Zen at 10:45 when it happened and OR had fixed it by 12:30 the next morning. That is actually fairly normal. Same when we had a fibre seeking hammer drill take out the office fibre - fixed in 6 hours.If you buy your ADSL from Sky then that was a failure but don't blame OR for crappy service from your ISP. OR are shit hot if you pay who's paying them.Quote from: Simon on March 19, 2021, 05:39:03 pmRedundancy isn't a great solution. Case in point a friend of mine had two issues with their redundant fibre connection a few years ago which was quite funny:1. Both diverse fibre peers went down the same duct into the street that was dug up by the gas people.2. They both terminated in the same rack that the UPS exploded in.My day job is really architecting around these scenarios at a software level which is where the problem really is. You need to plan for when failure does happen not plan to avoid failures. Failures WILL happen so plan for them. Even the best plans don't work out when something unexpected comes up.Plan to close the shop for the day or run your business online and go and sit in Starbucks until your shit is fixed. Mine is using the nice new 5G tower down the street. If that fails I'll jump in the car and hang at my mother's house. Still not going into the bloody office

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 09:37:43 pm
content: You had a cut wire, clear cut case.....mine is just poor, worse when it is wet, when i ring the reseller they warn that I will be charged £120 if openreach can't find a problem, we know what that means, they will come out 4 weeks after the rain, find that you can get data down it and claim it's fine.Yes virgin is a shit show, I hate them, and after 8 years I gave up and went back to them because as I said they are now the ones that hold the monopoly to supplying my house as they are the only ones to actually have a connection to it. They are a nightmare to deal with but they say i will get up to 100Mb/s and i get exactly that all the time without fail unlike the overburdened and outdated phone line.Had a video call with a friend in Chile, over 4000 miles away, it was like they were just down the road, no lags, perfect natural response time. i have a video call with my dad 4 miles away and it's like he is on the moon with 1-2s lag, we have to use the phone for audio and the lag in the video is significant. Welcome to the British telephone network monopoly where broken lies are only fixed when they are literally cut off.You can't run a reliable cashless society on our outdate and crumbling infrastructure.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 09:43:46 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 19, 2021, 09:13:08 pmRedundancy is a great solution, but you need to really figure out if you actually have redundancy, and keep questioning your providers. Are you paying for fibres to leave you along two completely different paths, to different switching centres? If not, then they'll probably follow the same path, even if offered by different telecoms suppliers, and one day backhoe, backhoe, its off to work they'll go.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 09:44:56 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 19, 2021, 09:13:08 pmThat's nice. I had a complete failure of an underground joint which wasexpectedbecause they know their joints are shit, I knew exactly where the joint was, it took days for them to send someone to mark out the pavementthree metres away, more days to dig and find it wasn't actually there, more days to send someone else who knew what they were doing... and in the end when the second hole was dug, the groundworks guy rejointed the cable while he was there and did a better job than the final joint by Openreach. If you're wondering where he picked up that capability, he used to do cable jointing for them and left to dig holes because he earns more money with a concrete saw and a shovel.Oh, and I've been promised fibre to my house for a full year now. Still waiting. At this point the local company which got funding a few months ago is going to beat them to it.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 09:57:04 pm
content: Who was the ISP? A lot of the outcome depends on your service contract.As for fibre we had the same problem and it wasn’t openreach. Local NIMBY had to snuff it before they could get planning permission for the box. I actually attended the planning meeting and I was fighting people twice my age who didn’t know what the internet even was.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 09:58:36 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 19, 2021, 09:57:04 pmZen. Not their fault - Openreach just stink.Quote from: bd139 on March 19, 2021, 09:57:04 pmThere's no box - there's ductwork between me and the exchange.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 10:00:25 pm
content: Business or residential? I’m on their business. Don’t expect them to piss on you if you’re on fire unless you have a business contract.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 10:05:15 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 19, 2021, 10:00:25 pmIrrelevant to the incompetence of Openreach staff. But no, it's not business because, again, that won't fix their dumpster fire infrastructure or bargain basement staff. Some of whom are, not remotely by my choice, family members.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 10:08:45 pm
content: They send different people out I think. I had a vast improvement in competence since I got a business contract.But yes they do employ some complete idiots. I had one literally run away and get into his van and drive off after he bust my limping ADSL in 2013. I got an apologetic engineer phone me shortly afterwards to explain. I will give them their due though because it turned out they’d run out of pairs in the street and I had a bad one. For this they actually had to stick a new 400m trunk cable in which took a week to sort out.