Full SMT line inside of 8-foot-wide trailer? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: radiostuff
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2024, 04:02:59 pm
content: Have you every seen an production-grade SMT line that is narrow enough to be installed inside of an 8-foot-wide trailer (40' or 53')? Let's assume that the line is able to support 100 uniques (so likely two PnP machines), a fully automatic stencil printer, 6-zone oven, as well as destacker and stacker.Which manufacturers have equipment that is narrow enough to comfortably fit inside of this width? I would assume that the maximum equipment width is 48-inches and that servicing could be done from only one side.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2024, 04:17:31 pm
content: There was one on ebay a year or 2 backhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/is-your-lab-too-small-for-pp-machine-no-excuses-now/msg4665181/#msg4665181

author: HwAoRrDk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2024, 04:22:41 pm
content: Why a trailer? So the line is mobile? I hate to think what bouncing around in a moving trailer would do to the alignment and calibration of a pick and place machine.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2024, 06:36:55 pm
content: Quote from: radiostuff on February 24, 2024, 04:02:59 pmI'm guessing being in a trailer gets you round some zoning/permit rules because it can technically move, given enough notice.Production grade, so we're excluding the Kayo/Neoden machines that tend to be just that little bit narrower... Tricky. What I have seen is the Mycronic Road show truck, it cheats and deploys a telescopic extension to give people somewhere to stand.I think to give yourself any chance of being able to install a feeder, move up and down the line with any degree of comfort etc you would have to put generic machines almost against the back wall and then only load feeders on the front banks, 2 generic machines is often 60 8mm lanes each per side. This would "fit", I suspect temperature control would be a nightmare and so would servicing. Your "higher end" little machines such as an Essemtec FOX or a Fritsch or even Autotronik would probably give you a little more room. These may or may not meet your definition of production grade.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2024, 07:34:28 pm
content: Bear in mind that serious machines need a very solid mounting, (some have their bases filled with sand at install).Anything still on wheels may have issues

author: radiostuff
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 12:20:17 am
content: Quote from: SMTech on February 24, 2024, 06:36:55 pmThat's not entirely the reason, but the mobility is important.

author: radiostuff
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 12:21:15 am
content: Quote from: HwAoRrDk on February 24, 2024, 04:22:41 pmNot so the production line is mobile, but to have the option to move and be operational in fairly short order.

author: radiostuff
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 12:27:45 am
content: The Mycronic Roadshow trailer is exactly what I had envisioned. Though I assume something like that would cost about a million dollars.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 02:36:15 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 24, 2024, 04:17:31 pmI just saw this on archive.org, some guys are just smarter than everyone else... this is ingenious.QuoteYou can manufacture while delivering to the customer ... that's innovative. It just needs a careful driver.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 08:43:16 am
content: Quote from: MR on February 26, 2024, 02:36:15 amIt ain't smart to make a hell hole on wheels. Looking down that line proves something of a point, the pick and place has bascially no room around it. Can and should, very different things.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 09:37:38 am
content: Doesn't need to be on wheels when it's operating. The truck can have legs or the container can be lifted off.I don't think it makes much sense to have this though. It's not that what it produces is difficult to move or time perishable.Maybe secretive?Or a rental PnP line for rapid temporary scaling?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 10:57:55 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on February 26, 2024, 09:37:38 amHard to see that making sense - components and PCBAs are small and light - much easier to ship to & from a fixed location.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 11:00:44 am
content: It's pretty clear about saving the rental fee, it should be possible to find some parking space for cheap. And that would be cheaper than renting an office eg. in San Francisco.But I prefer the thesis manufacturing on the freeway while driving to the customer.

author: cosmicray
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 11:39:34 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on February 26, 2024, 09:37:38 amI can see that. Either scaling up for a heavy usage, or as an emergency replacement.One of the handy parts about this concept, is that much of the build-out can be done on a factory floor. Lock down anything that might move around, then move it to the location of need. They may also have a comparable unit pre-loaded with reels of common components.The concept is somewhat similar to several offerings that have containerized growing setups. Primarily used for growing small fruit (strawberries. cherry tomatoes), and a large number of edible greens (lettuces, arugula, etc). At least 3 companies currently offer that setup, with priced beginning around $125k-$150k.

author: radiostuff
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 02:30:56 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on February 26, 2024, 09:37:38 amAre full lines actually rented out? If so, what are ballpark costs?Tangential topic: Do any used/new equipment dealers rent out production lines at their facilities? That's just a curiosity.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 03:41:22 pm
content: Quote from: radiostuff on February 26, 2024, 02:30:56 pmI have seen one place in the past that phrased what appeared to be a contract manufacturing service as a or sort of line rental service. I'm not sure exactly why they were selling it that way and I am fairly sure they no longer exist, the man was a charlatan anyway.I have seen more than 1 source of 2nd user SMT equipment mysteriously turn into a contract manufacturer using the same shit they were selling.In europe both adoptSMT and SMT-House have rental offerings. It is not clear how many options and what flexbility they are able to offer, SMTHouse mentions paper per placement and flexible renting. I do get mailshots from SMTHouse where you could rent a 50Kcph line using 2x 2015 Miraes a new oven & printer, handling equipment. The standard offer looked like this"Renting period:36 monthsRenting price:€ 2.998,- per monthAdditional information: Software package: T.B.D. Service pr. month: € 950,- per month, Start Payment€ 25.000,- After 36 months: Re-Rent, Purchase or Return to SMT Renting"The same email had a 70k cph line that used slightly older machines for the same money. I don't think this is a terrible deal, it might even be a good one if the contract only has you on the hook for defined consumable parts.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 04:37:16 pm
content: Similarly sized trailers are popular for MRI and CT medical imagers, which find themselves parked for long contracts next to brick and mortar hospital buildings.They still require setup and careful alignment upon arrival at the parking place.

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 09:42:03 am
content: I think for SMT production you need 35 to 45 sqM to have space to breath.probably minimum of 1.5m around the machine with feeders hangin out. So, a minimum width across feeder bank sides of about 4.5m. you could probably get away with 1m at the input and exit end . I have a tray loader so need more.... Could all be done in ... 4.5 x 10m so you need a trailer that 'expands' out the side....But unless you have a truck with a concrete floor , the machine isnt going to like it much- unless run very slow...

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 11:23:56 am
content: Quote from: glenenglish on February 27, 2024, 09:42:03 amI concur, depending on what you are building and any intermediate processes, you might want other sections in your line, an inspection conveyor, an add this awkward part by hand conveyor, AOI, SPI,Divert, board flipper. Lines can get longSmaller low volume machines would overcome most of these issues: smaller lighter heads, lower acceleration, much lighter machines , trailer would still need to absolutely planted.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 04:29:05 pm
content: Quote from: radiostuff on February 26, 2024, 12:21:15 amCould it be in a shipping container instead? Also moveable quickly if you have to, but it would sit solidly on the ground when deployed and operational. Would make me feel much better about operating machinery inside.Besides plain steel containers you can als get them fitted out with insulation and windows for use as temporary buildings, e.g. construction site office space etc.Edit: Adding a random link to a US-based vendor, no affiliation etc.:https://bobscontainers.com/store/20-ft-container-office/

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 04:47:36 pm
content: My company (before retirement) needed a transportable (not mobile) housing for an x-ray inspection system.Near O’Hare airport, there are companies that specialize in re-using 20-foot shipping containers, adding doors, hvac, wiring, etc: I think their main market is communication systems for remote locations.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 04:53:38 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 26, 2024, 04:37:16 pmThose systems expand, once they are parked, to a room nearly twice as wide as when the thing is on the road. Some expand on one side, and put down legs, to avoid toppling. Others expand equally on each side of the truck chassis. They are pretty roomy in operation.

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 10:36:47 pm
content: interesting on the modular container setup. that would be how to get the square space of 30-40 sqM.Otherwise, no way in a container unless you are going to use a tiny machine. Containers do not have the width.The trailers one can buy with a 2m width side-out would provide the width. But as for 2 tons of machine sitting in there with all the feeders, I dunno about that !Depends on the expected capabilitiesSome of the newer machines are narrow in one dimension, that might work. still 2000kg with 100 feeders. plus the tray feeder 250kg . plus the stencil printer... maybe 750kg

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 11:01:52 pm
content: Note that shipping containers, considered as Lego blocks, have standardized dimensions registered at ISO:Length: 20 or 40 feetWidth: always 8 feetHeight: several standards, starting around 8 feetThere are non-standard containers as well, but they may not stack properly on container ships.53-foot long containers, as seen on truck trailers or railway cars, usually appear to be an extra length welded to a 40-foot standard container.

author: Aspartame
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2024, 12:49:14 pm
content: You may start with the following setup:2 desktop machines+manual printer+desktop oven

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2024, 03:22:46 pm
content: I would not put it on a trailer, but use shipping containers instead. Shipping containers come in many different qualities, from the standard steel boxes, to (warmth) isolated boxes with windows meant as portable offices. Such containers can also be put on the ground (so easier to enter) and leveled (for machine alignmnent). And as long as you don't need to move them daily, you don't need a truck.There are also portable calibration labs built into such containers. As far as I know they just rent a truck and a crane whenever the lab needs to be moved. There are some youtube video's about this, I think even Dave EEVblog made a video about such a portable lab.Such shipping containers can also be extendable. They ship at standard size, but when stationary you can make them a lot wider so you have room to move around your machines. Look a bit around. There are all sorts of (semi-) standard and (half) products you can buy off the shelf.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2024, 04:19:17 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on March 02, 2024, 03:22:46 pmThis has been discussed at some length in posts 19-23, but it bears repeating.