Sourcing PCB from somewhere but not China - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 09:31:22 am
content: Like most people, I have for many years been buying PCBs from China.I used to buy them here in the UK, 1975 to about 1995. The QA was lousy, with BBT often skipped especially if it was end of the month coming upAnd with no BBT you got about 5% boards with opens or shorts, which were a basta*rd to find and often the opens resulted in an intermittently working product. This was an issue with just about all manufacturers, including two of the UK's biggest firms at the time.With China this all went away. QA was 100% and prices were about 1/2 of the UK (if you bought through a UK agent, which most do) or 1/3 (if you bought directly as I have been for many years).The problem is their arrogant attitude. One long term supplier destroyed the tooling (worth about $500) citing small print saying they can do so if we have not bought that board for 12 months. So I obviously dumped them; they were stupid enough to not realise there was no cost to us in doing so.Now, you would think the Chinese have learnt from this virus fiasco (which they started by dodgy animal practices) but I don’t think so.I am right now ordering 10k mouldings from there. We paid $2.5k for the tooling (about 25% of the UK cost) and they originally quoted $0.12 for the item. They have just increased it to $0.24, citing “covid-19”! A totally shameless f—k you way of doing business. Well, doing them in the UK would cost even more, but … the shipping from China will add something like $0.20 per item which is about the UK price.Does anyone here have experience of PCB manufacture outside China?

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 09:59:57 am
content: Yes I have.Occasionally (but rather seldom), do I use a local manufacturer in our small country somewhere in Europe. They are in no way competitive in pricing or available production dates. Quality is great, I can't complain any bit, but as long as the price is way way way higher and delivery almost up to 2 weeks without some other nonsense payed on top, I will continue to happily support businesses in China. Why wouldn't I?//I forgot to mention I only have manufactured small quantities of PCBs for prototypes and contract work, not a series production type.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 10:08:30 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on April 10, 2020, 09:31:22 amIt's like buying a house in UK during a boom time...Quote from: peter-h on April 10, 2020, 09:31:22 amAs far as I know, EuroCircuits opened UK representation recently, so you can speak to a local guy in proper English too.Another one, Wurth ElektronikBoth deliveried that been quoted without any fuss and surprises.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 10:22:53 am
content: bottom line, china is cheap, if cheap is all you care about great. If you have other priorities then obviously price starts to go away as a priority. I am amazed how cheap aisler are for PCB's, cheaper than china with free shipping although it has taken several emails with them to figure out how to use their contorted website.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 10:40:38 am
content: I've never heard of Aisler before. Is it some kind of joke or what? The website is some poor mess I even can't find PCB manufacturing capabilities, nor any specifications for required manufacturing data format. Not a single photo or spec of anything, past the the polished turd web. I think most Chinese PCB vendors can sort this better already. So where's their claimed improvement?//EDIT: Rofl thishttps://hackaday.io/project/21578-pewpew-featherwing/log/68755-boards-from-aisler

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 10:43:16 am
content: By aisler do you meanhttps://aisler.net? That looks interesting. Most people seem to use JLCPCB in China who are ok but they specifically make the point (this was discussed here previously) that nobody there speaks English and therefore any instructions will not be read, so the Gerbers have to be done right (but for prototypes this often doesn't matter that much). I wonder if Aisler sub out to a Chinese company? Bad website.For prototypes there are several options e.g.https://www.pcbtrain.co.ukwhich is run by Newbury Circuits who I used for many years for production. They were an agent for various Chinese firms, and one from Macau IIRC, but kept putting up their prices all the time, and when you are buying 1000 circuits at £1.50 each the price is no longer insignificant (the Chinese would do this directly for £0.40). We never knew the actual manufacturer although we did discover it once when the said outfit vanished (as Chinese companies do regularly).I will check out Wurth too. I know them for very expensive electronic componentse.g. RJ45s which cost 10x more than Chinese ones. Differences like thatarea problem.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 10:51:14 am
content: I picked Aisler because they do donations to KiCad which is the only way I can get my tight arse employer to at least contribute to the software I use to design their products. They also take the kiCad files directly so no titting about with gerbers.Yes I have also used PCB train. I see that in covid-19 era their prices are rather expensive, only 10 day lead time was available when i looked. And the prices were those of a 3 or 4 day. 5 50x50 PCB's for £250. The stencils are £41.Same stuff from aisler was less than £100. They are made in GermanyI have also used Wurth, about the same prices that PCB train were.

author: Koen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2020, 09:02:06 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on April 10, 2020, 09:31:22 amAye, I can see arrogant attitude alright.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2020, 12:40:20 am
content: Quote from: Simon on April 10, 2020, 10:51:14 amIt'd be nice if Aisler gave approximate costs per board without having to submit the design first. They know how much it costs to do a board based on size and stackup, so why the extra step?QuoteWhat's so hard about Gerbers? You don't need to send a board house your full design (schematic, layout). Just send the Gerbers.And for the record -- I hate their cutesy alliteration. "Powerful Prototypes!" "Beautiful Boards!" "Precious Parts!" "Stellar Stencil!" Their target market is engineers, not Japanese schoolgirls.Blech.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2020, 04:29:50 am
content: I agree, I've been using JLC PCB for years, they've never let me down, not even once. Yeah I have to send them gerbers that are correct but I don't quite grasp how one would expect otherwise. Garbage in, garbage out as the old saying goes. I've ordered dozens of boards from them and every one came out precisely as I designed it. I really appreciate the fact that they manufacture exactly what I order without trying to second guess my intents.If you need tens of thousands of something it might be economical to make them in a first world country but for prototypes nobody I know of can beat China. Thankfully even during the middle of the pandemic JLC managed to keep going, they don't even shut down for the Chinese new year. I actually kind of feel bad about that and hope the employees get a chance to enjoy their holiday.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2020, 09:17:16 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on April 14, 2020, 12:40:20 amYes I know the site is awful and yes I don't care for the terminology either. They won't be the first to miss the mark when dealing with engineers, just look at the mess the component distributors make when the try to promote other parts on the page of the part you are looking at like it's some flipping garment site. Or the way Farnell advertised cheap through-hole parts on an image of surface mount ones...... I think they missed their target market and went for the kids only to find that so many more people use them. My description of their site is that it looks like it is made of duplo bricks/playdoe and I have already told them that the rest of the manufacturers already have it licked so why don't they just follow best practice. They have some really great functionality, they just need to drop the bullshit and let the features shine through.Yes it would be nice to know board costs up front, you can do that with PCB shopper but not on their site so hopefully when they release the new site they include it. I tried getting some 8 pin DIP/SOIC adapters priced and they were just horrendous compared to others so they seem to have a base price per PCB.But price wise they are pretty good. I prefer to just upload my project file. It's one less lot of files to look after. As it is I am playing rough and loose with my employers document issuing rules to try and give my work status in a system not designed for PCB design where the only thing I can really put a proper revision number on is the diagram and the BOM spreadsheet, the PCB file has little hope and gerbers non at all.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2020, 09:19:22 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 14, 2020, 04:29:50 amactually I had Aisler pop up as cheaper than china. For starters they can ship for 1/3 the price before you worry about import duties and that is if you don't what to risk untracked free shipping. It costs £30-45 to get boards from china with DHL.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2020, 09:23:03 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on April 14, 2020, 12:40:20 amI think target is more likely perplexed arduinists and not professionals.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2020, 09:27:45 am
content: Yes quite, that lot. I prefer if possible to have my boards made in Europe. I don't think they realized the reach of the market they were getting into and are now having to adapt to what their real customers are.The repositories really pisses me off!

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2020, 09:51:57 am
content: Quote from: Yansi on April 14, 2020, 09:23:03 amThis - which is why boards arrive with a couple of stickers in the package saying something like "Proud to be a Maker" or something like that.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2020, 10:02:27 am
content: Oh yea, that does my head in. I give them to someone at work who has a child that likes stickers. I kinda lost interest in stickers several decades ago.....

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2020, 04:28:23 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 14, 2020, 09:19:22 amImport duties are not a thing where I live, at least not for dollar values of goods that I'd ever be receiving.When I order a batch of boards from JLC I pay around $8 shipped for 5 boards. It takes about a month but that's rarely a problem, I just work on the next project while I'm waiting for the last batch of boards to arrive.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2020, 04:38:18 pm
content: $8 delivered? When have you last ordered?Times have changed and prices too. I don't see any option for less than $20.And snail mail shipping is not an option. Life is too short to wait three months for PCBs to get delivered.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2020, 04:39:43 pm
content: I am happy to pay for stuff, not to get ripped off but pay a fair price.

author: TIOUK
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2020, 03:48:04 pm
content: Recently had some nice PCBs from S Koreawww.quickturnpcb.co.krnot a slick* website, but not a lot else to complain about.Also had some fromwww.european-circuits.co.ukin Glasgow. Silk is not even across all PCBs, the gold looks variable and the FR4 was lower temperature.They all soldered OK though.I'll let you guess which boards are from which house. Price wise both more than China, speed wise the Korean ones turned up quicker with nicer packaging.* SSL lacking, but at least payments via paypal were OK, or they wouldn't have received an order.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2020, 03:59:24 pm
content: european circuits do not appear to have a pricing tool on their site. Those pictures with the dodgy silk screen allignment reming me of a Leicester based company i once used that were all about "made in UK ra ra ra", the resulting PCB's were not great and took several days longer and all I got was a "sorry we are really busy" no mention of a yes you paid extra for the faster turn around and we have achieved a slower manufacture time we would have normally charged you less for. i never used them again. Then i bumped into their rep visiting me unannounced saying he was working for another company that were all about subbing it out to china, yea, the same "made in Uk ra ra ra" guy.....

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 06:26:01 am
content: Quote from: Yansi on April 14, 2020, 04:38:18 pmHave they changed in a month?Granted this was a very small board, but a larger one is the same price. Total time was less than 30 days from order to delivery.A larger board I ordered in January was $7.24 including postage for 5 boards, so postage prices have gone up a tad.

author: JLCPCB Official
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2020, 09:53:51 am
content: One thing I have to say the shipping cost is adjusted by the delivery company, JLCPCB changes nothing about the shipping cost.DHL seems the most stable shipping way for recent days, but cost more, many customers complained about the higher cost and fewer shipping choices. And you know what, we can't cooperate with some small logistics companies without guarantees, that's our difficulty. Some countries get better, some still not. India extends the blockade period until April 30, DHL can't enter India either. We still seek some stable shipping companies to make the way easier.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2020, 10:09:32 am
content: It's not about wanting free shipping but distance china to europe is going to dictate costs and the only time sensitive option is courier as post from china will obviously be slow. But if you purchase within europe or other local area if you are in the US shipping is just cheaper because the distance is smaller it is less of a logistics problem and more options are available. when small volumes are being ordered shipping is a big part of the cost. So I order from germany, it is close to the UK, I can have free postage with no tracking as it is not expensive for them to include in the price or Fedex for 15 euro which will be cheaper and faster as the distance is shorter, fuel is not free.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2020, 10:50:17 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 16, 2020, 06:26:01 amBut you have used standard post, not DHL express delivery, which is the option I go for all the time. That I think was almost always in the $15+ region. Now at about $20 or more, depending on weight/size.//Maybe forgot to state explicitly, that my original comment was relevant to a delivery within a reasonable time, not a month or more for a snailmail.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2020, 11:10:43 am
content: Because commercial flights have reduced significantly. Hardly a few planes flying. Air mails depending on commercial flight totally, unlike FedEx, UPS, etc that have their own planes.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2020, 08:41:39 pm
content: Quote from: Yansi on April 24, 2020, 10:50:17 amThat's your choice though, it doesn't have to cost a lot. I don't see the problem with it taking a month, occasionally I'm in a hurry and will pay more but usually I just use standard mail. I've got boards trickling in on a regular basis, I'm not just waiting around for my latest board order to show up, I'm building things with the last boards I got. By the time I'm done with that project the next batch of boards comes in.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2020, 06:39:21 pm
content: Quote from: nali on April 14, 2020, 09:51:57 amMy favorite one had this quote:"Never half ass two things. Whole ass one thing" - Ron Swanson, Parks and Rec (an american comedy tv series).

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2020, 07:15:35 pm
content: My experience of UK pcb's is same as yours and its crap and expensive.I bought some pcb's from China for £27 including p+p.Same pcb's in UK I got quoted £270 !Its a no brainer really.The prices can get a bit higher if you pay VAT and import fee's but still a long way from £270.