New Tesla batteries about to change EVs - Elon Musk lies... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 12:12:38 am
content: Interesting analysis on Tesla’s new battery design. Less Co more energy.Elon lies in that he under promises and over delivers. Unlike most complains which lie by over stating and under delivering.Solid state batteries will be in vehicles much sooner than thought.https://youtu.be/zWIU4OZ9OTI

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 12:16:12 am
content: What's with all the somewhat controversial green energy threads from you?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 12:31:44 am
content: What do you mean by all the controversial green energy threads? This one isn’t. This is about Tesla’s new battery design which will give a mileage boost to EVs. And new solid state batteries for EVs will be hitting the market much faster than thought. Don’t you think this will change the adoption of EV?

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 03:07:17 am
content: In this case he's probably talking about the click-bait title.Or possibly the link to a 42 minute video that almost nobody will watch, either because they never followed the link, or because it's not worth 42 minutes of their life to find out something that you supposedly already told us. And if you didn't tell us the important part, why didn't you?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 03:31:30 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on December 26, 2020, 03:07:17 amNope, you got that all wrong. But it is all in the video. Elon under promised and over delivered... once again.

author: trobbins
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 10:43:23 am
content: What a waste of a thread.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 09:06:16 pm
content: Quote from: trobbins on December 26, 2020, 10:43:23 amI agree, how long ago was it that these batteries were announced. Hasn't the massive capacity increase been long pointed out to be because each battery is bigger? The actual power to volume/weight/whatever is a relatively small increase because of erm... geometrics

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 09:47:54 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on December 26, 2020, 12:31:44 amCalling Musk a lier isn't how nuanced threads are started. It's a statement intended to inflame and provoke. It seems many of the threads you start share a similar profile. Plus what the rest is saying, obviously.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 10:53:29 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on December 26, 2020, 12:12:38 amI think we're thinking of two different Elon Musk's. The one I know over-promises and under-delivers, consistently...Promises of an expanded supercharger network and service centres which we are still waiting for, the Gigafactory, meeting delivery targets on current orders, the Tesla Semi trailer (that one fell off the face of the earth), the "Cyber Truck" which not only isn't road-legal but promised so much and failed miserably in many ways.I think Tesla as a car maker is becoming less and less relevant each year with a bunch of actual proper car makers investing heavily into EVs. You only need to look as far as what companies such as Toyota, Hyundai, Ford, GM, Volvo, BMW and Volkswagen are doing. Then there is the quality aspect of every Tesla I've seen and sat in; it's average at best.If Starlink ever becomes a thing, then that has some real merits, but Elon should leave EVs to the big boys.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 11:16:36 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 26, 2020, 10:53:29 pmI agree with that. Just for the ID.3 and ID.4 alone Volkswagen can produce more units anually compared to all the production capacity of Tesla. Compared to other car manufacturers production capacity Tesla's Gigafactory is nothing more than a small shack where they tinker with cars. Then again Tesla has such a strong brand and brand loyalty that they don't have to produce in larger numbers. Just as long as they keep the margins healthy. Some people call Tesla the Apple of cars. I think they are right and I think for that reason Tesla will never dissapear; even after most of the other manufacturers have stopped making BEVs.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 11:53:16 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 26, 2020, 11:16:36 pmApple and Tesla have a lot of similarities. At their core, they both churn out average consumer devices at high prices.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 12:42:41 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 26, 2020, 09:47:54 pmCalling Elon a liar is a quote made by Sandy Murano. When it comes to Elon describing the new batteries you would have to admit it is an accurate statement.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 12:48:25 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on December 27, 2020, 12:42:41 amTitle you made is a click bait because you took a piece which out of context means opposite to it's intended meaning in context. You just did the same thing as mass media of these days.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 12:51:47 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 26, 2020, 11:53:16 pmSo wrong. You can call Tesla or its engineering good or bad, but in no way it's average.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 12:58:19 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 26, 2020, 11:16:36 pmMind to tell where they will take the batteries to produce them? Out of thin air? What they can produce more than Tesla is empty shell.QuoteTesla is exponentially increasing production capacity, if you didn't know. There will be at least 2 additional factories running in less than a year and Chinese factory severely expanded.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 02:00:30 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 26, 2020, 11:53:16 pmThat's why Tesla might have a chance as a high-end car supplier in the long run. But they have to get build quality right up there for that (Apple has always understood this).

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 02:28:24 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 27, 2020, 02:00:30 amHow about antennagate or bendgate, data/charging cables breaking in a few months of use or even less (they are still as bad as many years ago), when even cheap knockoffs are way more reliable in this regard.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 06:11:55 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 27, 2020, 12:51:47 amTesla have a long way to go before I would call their build quality and fit-and-finish excellent quality. I personally think you get a better quality product in a Kia. Perhaps we just have different standards. I personally wasn't all that impressed with Tesla's, they were OK, nothing more. Longevity is yet to be seen/proven.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 01:44:16 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 27, 2020, 06:11:55 amYou are missing the point with Tesla. They are a technology company that is selling cars. Elon’s goal is to push the technology envelope. The reason people are buying Tesla cars is because he is disrupting the car industry. Look at the valuation of Tesla’s stock compared to the other car companies. He’s doing it. He has disrupted the car industry to the extent Ford wants to be like Tesla, a technology company, not a car company.People who are buying and investing in Tesla are supporting the change or disruption in technology and not necessarily looking for a quality product. What people are seeing with Tesla is that Elon it’s constantly improving his product and the technology. Name one other car company that offer over the air enhancements and software fixes?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 02:12:48 pm
content: I hate all the talk around disruption. It's called advancing of the industry. People call their technology disruptive when it's a load of bollocks and they are trying to hide the fact that it evolved out of nowhere else other than their ass and has no basis in reality.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 02:28:31 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on December 27, 2020, 01:44:16 pmThe reason people buy Tesla cars is because they like the car better than their other options, either for it's features or as a status symbol. The reason people buy Tesla stock is they think they'll make money doing it. Like any other stock, there's a risk element.You're out of date on cars doing OTA updates: GM pushed out an update to 16 of their 2020 Buick, Chevy, Caddy, and GMC models just last month. BMW Group (BMW, Rolls Royce, Mini Cooper) has been doing it since 2018. The list goes on...all the major players are either already doing it on some models or will be doing it in the next year or so.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 02:30:43 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 27, 2020, 02:12:48 pmSo do you think we would have as many EV car choices if it were not for Tesla? After watching Sandy Murano’s video on Tesla’s improvements in battery technology do you think they are pulling it out of there ass?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 02:31:56 pm
content: their improvement was in manufacturing methods to make a battery as good as existing technology but with the ease of the up to then inferior method. They made progress in themselves but not a technological breakthrough.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 02:36:45 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on December 27, 2020, 02:28:31 pmDo you think because Tesla started doing this they had to follow? Or do you think this is something they would be doing if Tesla didn’t exist? You do have to admit Tesla has many brilliant features none of the other car companies have implemented.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 02:37:59 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on December 27, 2020, 02:30:43 pmThe battery capacity increase statement was deliberate to make it look better than it was. As I just said further up which you ignored so here's a second try, the capacity per cell increase is because the cells are bigger. The slight increase in power density is just geometrics. You can make a single cylinder 4 times the volume by just doubling the diameter so for the wall using just twice the material. So for a little over half the case material the cell is 4 times the volume. So less space taken by "packaging" more capacity in the same space. It's not like it's a new chemistry. It's neat, it's logical, it's just a progression in design that anyone would do if they wanted to continue with cylindrical cells but ramp up production.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 02:38:59 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 27, 2020, 02:31:56 pmNot sure how you can say that if you watched the Sandy Murano or Dave’s video. Care to explain?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 02:43:35 pm
content: QuoteToyota? Seriously? The company that have pissed away their potential lead in electric drivetrains down the "self charging" dead-end, and whose chairman only recently showed how deep into denial they still are? How many EVs have they shipped to date, zero.How far further will Tesla be by the time the legacy makers wake up, if they've not gone bankrupt?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 02:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 27, 2020, 02:37:59 pmSo you think the change is the composition of the elements that make up the battery are not important? Then why did the make the change to size and ingredients?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 02:45:19 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on December 27, 2020, 02:38:59 pmSo you have not actually watched Dave's video. They now have the performance of pouch batteries, you know, the other pre-existing method with superior performance (not capacity). The cylindrical is easier to make so while they worked out how to fix the performance they also increased the size which they can now do having reduced the ESR which is the bit of improvement in performance.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 03:27:58 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on December 27, 2020, 12:42:41 amNo, it's the title of the thread you started. The fact you may have "borrowed" the statement changes little.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 04:01:37 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 27, 2020, 03:27:58 pmThe statement is true.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 04:16:33 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on December 27, 2020, 04:01:37 pmThis is what's wrong with your threads and posts. Just saying "nu-uh!" isn't helpful or productive and seems devised to be grating. Referring to a video nearly an hour long isn't going to cut it either. That's just bad form. If you want to make a case for a statement you'll have to explain how and why. They can be points you took away from the video using it as a source of sorts, but if you want to make a point you'll actually have to make it. What are you actually saying and why?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 04:20:29 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 27, 2020, 02:43:35 pmToyota is anything but in denial. EVs don't scale and the people at Toyota already did the math. Toyota is the only car manufacturer in the world who is on track for meeting the average CO2 emission limits set by the EU and therefore preventing to be slapped with massive fines. And they don't need to sell EVs or buy expensive CO2 emission rights from Tesla to do that. Other car manufacturers didn't look ahead (thinking 'to big to jail') and are now forced to go for bandaids like selling EVs (probably at low profits just to make sure they sell enough to avoid fines) or buy emission rights. Both are not good for profit margins.Now try again to convince people that Toyota is behind or even in denial. Toyota got laughed at when they introduced the Prius. That technology is saving their bacon today. Toyota got laughed at for producing hydrogen powered cars but today hydrogen infrastructure is being rolled out quickly. Even the gas station around the corner is looking at adding a hydrogen pump. Guess where that leaves the EV in a few years.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 04:31:32 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 27, 2020, 04:20:29 pmToyota is dumb enough to continue with Hydrogen trash. You talk about scalability. Even if they wanted, they cannot produce many fuel cells due to impossibility to obtain required amount of raw materials for catalyst. Not to say that infrastructure is way more complicated, less scalable and more expensive than for EV.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 05:15:57 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 27, 2020, 04:31:32 pmDon't let him derail a thread that started out off the rails 🤣

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 05:37:38 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 27, 2020, 04:31:32 pmWhoahaaaaaKeep smoking the good stuff.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 05:42:15 pm
content: toyota is in denial.Too little, much too late.Today, Toyota is simply at 0 BEV/year, Tesla represents 500 k/Y, double next year.Bye Bye.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 06:37:41 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 27, 2020, 04:31:32 pmI am also not a buyer of the hydrogen idea. There are just so many challenges with it to overcome, and not all of the challenges are to do with engineering - for example, how comfortable will buyers be with having a gas cylinder fuel tank in their car, or inside their house (garage)? All it takes is one accident where gas leaked, collected, and blew a house apart to kill sales through irrational fear even if the system is overall safer than gasoline...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 06:54:24 pm
content: Hydrogen just seems to be pointless. You have to make it, that takes energy, store it, which takes energy, transport it from the manufacturing site, that takes energy. The combustion engine is still only 30-40% efficient so all of that has to be done for 3 times what you actually get. It's silly.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 06:55:24 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 27, 2020, 04:20:29 pmBut it will be their funeral once hybrids are banned and they have nothing to replace it.QuoteWhere exactly ?The infrastructure for supplying EVs is already everywhere - just connect an EVSE or rapid-charger to the existing grid and away you go. And as an added bonus it can help with grid balancing.Hydrogen has never made any sense outside of a few niche areas.It will never be a mainstream option for cars for the simple reasons that the efficiency is just too poor to compete with BEVs, and the infrastructure is too expensive.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 08:30:01 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 27, 2020, 06:55:24 pmHybrids will not be banned for the next 15 years in the UK or the EU. And these are still plans; nothing is cast in stone. It is a mistake to think Toyota is run by idiots. If you look closer at what they have been doing you'll notice that have been continueing to make their cars more efficient and pollute less. Toyota's hybrids have among the lowest NOx emissions. Far below the legal requirements. Do you really think that a company which clearly is putting effort into making cars consume & pollute less is going to pass an opportunity to put a better product on the market? Rest assured that they have a very good reason to skip EVs.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 09:21:39 pm
content: yes. The reason is that it just takes away their expensive parts business model.Just as kodak saw the doom of their film and paper development business model, tried to hold to their old stuff, and got just wiped out, Toyota will get the same consequences.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 09:29:38 pm
content: Quote from: f4eru on December 27, 2020, 09:21:39 pmUtter nonsense again. If anything Toyota has proven to be the most progressive car manufacturer. I'll bring up the Prius once more and their Mirai is yet another progressive blast into the future. Quite the opposite of Kodak actually.If you want an example of a car maker which is stuck in the old ways then look at Volkswagen. They prefered to cheat emissions testing rather than innovating. And since that didn't work out very well they try to copy & paste Tesla.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 10:32:31 pm
content: Quote from: f4eru on December 27, 2020, 05:42:15 pmWow, hold their horses. If they continue to grow like this, adding extra 200K cars per year, they will have 100% market share of all car sales by 2360. With this rate they almost catch up with the Toyota Corolla sales in 2045. We are saved. Musk is going to save everyone. And, we only have to build few hundred Gigfactories for this.Quote from: nctnico on December 27, 2020, 09:29:38 pmEveryone with diesel cars cheated with their emissions. Every single tested Euro 6 diesel failed on their emission test. There was only one diesel car, that passed the Euro 5 emission limit. It's a failure of trying to use fuel meant for tractors in cars.Test reports said, that a Diesel Fiat 500x (Why is this even a car? Why? A big small car with the wrong engine? ) was polluting 100 times more NOx than any Hybrid Toyota.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 11:07:02 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on December 27, 2020, 10:32:31 pmSo you are one of those people who do not realize what is exponential growth and are only able to think linear.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 11:35:43 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on December 27, 2020, 01:44:16 pmTesla are disrupting nothing (at least not in this part of the world). They are insignificant when it comes to car sales in Australia. Sure, they have made some really cool innovations in terms of technology but they certainly aren't the first to achieve these successes. Volvo for example have been testing autonomous (and semi-autonomous) vehicles since before Tesla were around.People buy Tesla for the same reason they buy iPhones; They are nothing special but have a perception about them. This year, Tesla sold just over 2000 vehicles in Australia, which is a drop in the ocean. EV buyers are opting for brands like BMW, Hyundai and Nissan as they offer far better support. However I suspect that's about to change as pure EV's are about to be taxed in a similar way fuel is taxed. As of next year, both Victoria and South Australia are introducing taxes based on the kilometres driven.Honestly, I don't see Tesla vehicles being around for the long haul, but that's just my prediction.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 11:43:39 pm
content: Of all the ICE manufacturers Toyota are best placed to ride out any challenge. They are not just considered the best car manufacturer in the world they are considered the best manufacturer in the world.... full stop.That’s not to say that their cars are the most stylish, comfortable, feature packed etc... but they are the best built, both in terms of factory efficiency and end build quality. Consequently they are consistently profitable.Wherever the powertrain engineering goes Toyota (and indeed any of the large manufacturers) will be able to catch up. Elon has stated that’s his preference anyway, to tip the scales in favour of ev.It’s a real shame Toyota divested in Tesla a few years back. Their expertise would have been a huge help on quality and manufacturing.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 11:47:41 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 27, 2020, 11:07:02 pmIt is utterly foolish to think that exponential growth goes on forever. There is something like market saturation. Look at iPhone sales for example. The first few years there was exponential growth but after that the sales flattened.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 11:56:36 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 27, 2020, 11:47:41 pmIt's not even at 10% of final numbers. So it's only a start. So foolish is assumption they will grow capacity by 200k/year. Previous data shows they increased production by at least 1.5 times each year.QuoteWhen iPhone became number 1 smartphone. Tesla is very far from that. And cars are not something like phones which you can build at existing factories of another companies. Bassically immediate scale if you have the money.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 12:34:24 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 27, 2020, 11:56:36 pmWas iPhone ever #1? Back when they were first released, the likes of Nokia and Motorola dominated the market. Certainly in the last 5 years or so, Apple's market share has been around that 15% mark.The issue with Tesla (like the iPhone) is that they were nice and shiny when first released, but they have quickly lost their lustre. Taking away the EV component for a moment, there is little a Tesla can do that my current car can't. For example, I can drive from work to home without touching the brake pedal once and the only reason I need to hold the steering wheel is because local regulations dictate that I have to have ultimate control of the vehicle (the same applies to Tesla). The more these "real" car companies invest in this technology, the less relevant Tesla becomes.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 06:13:18 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 28, 2020, 12:34:24 amAlright..... Apart from the batteries, drive train, charge network, styling, advances towards autonomy...... what have the Romans ever done for us?