Neoden 3V Advanced Pick and Place - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: tboicey
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2019, 07:04:26 am
content: As a 3V owner, I have been following and contributing to the threads about the Neoden 4 pick and place... such as:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/neoden-4-pick-and-place/The machines have a lot of similarities, especially the software, as well as the company itself and technical support. (which for me so far has been excellent)I thought it might be worth starting a thread as a placeholder for 3V issues like the other thread has been for the 4.I purchased the Neoden 3V Advanced 44 feeder in April 2018 and have so far done about 1000 boards.I chose the 3V over the similar competition as it seemed to be a reliable and economical choice for a machine with a lot of feeders. I run a lot of difference designs so having a lot of feeders was important for me to keep machine changeover times down. I chose the 3V over the 4 as it's significantly cheaper and most of the features that make the 4 more expensive were not things I particularly needed.For my uses, overall speed was not a large factor, my total quantities are low, and my manual stencil machine and (hacked) T962A oven make for a usable assembly line to do up to a hundred boards or so in one session. The 3V seems to keep up well enough, and I'm always hovering around so the automatic board-feeding capabilities of the Neoden 4 are impressive but not needed in my world.The boards I produce are mostly 0805, SOIC, and SOT23, with through hole components added later. The smallest parts I have needed to place are TSSOPs (0.65mm pitch), which placed accurately. I have not needed smaller although the machine will apparently place 0402.My designs are done in EAGLE, and to produce the placement file, I use the same ULP script as the 4 users do, the one from RaysHobby. It produces a file that you move to the machine with a USB stick, configure and align your feeders, and then mount. It works well although the component rotations might need adjusting after the first test. This might be related to the side and back feeder orientation on the 3V versus the 4, but for me some components came out sideways on the first run.All the vision and alignment features work well. I usually use one small and one medium nozzle, so most of the 0805s are placed with the small nozzle and the ICs are placed with the larger one. This probably slows the machine down as it does most of the board with one nozzle, but it will pick two components at once until it runs out of components that are set to use the larger head. I could probably tweak this for speed but at this time not really necessary. The ICs place better with the larger nozzle or else they rotate slightly during quick movements and misplace. It also helps to set the travel speed slower for heavier components, which is easy in the UI.For components that don't come on tape, it can be set up to load from a tray. I have just ordered a 24mm feeder from Neoden to try out, in the meantime I've been taking 20 pin SOICs off their 24mm tape and placing them in a 3D-printed tray on the work surface which works well. I have not used the vibration feeders yet.Although taller than officially allowed, I have also placed 5.5mm tall capacitors from the same tray. It helps to place them last as there is no way to program the machine to avoid the taller components already placed during head movement. With some trial and error I've always found an order that works and then it is repeatable for every board.In short, I'm happy with the machine, support has been excellent, and it does what it's supposed to do. I'd be happy to answer any questions from other owners or those considering.Cheers.

author: Milentije
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2019, 08:52:06 pm
content: Can you confirm that 44 feeders are included in a package? Not additionally paid?Is "33x8mm,6x 12mm,3x 16mm, 10 IC tray feeder" configuration mandatory for ADV version or you can chose/order different setup when ordering the machine?

author: tboicey
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2019, 01:28:07 am
content: To my knowledge, the "3V Advanced" is the 44 feeder version, and includes the left and rear bank of feeders. The "3V Standard" includes only the left side, at a much lower price point.The main left and rear peeler blocks seem to be made of one casting, except the rightmost two feeders on the back bank. It looks like these are modifiable as they are separate blocks of metal.It is here where I expect to install my 24mm feeder when it arrives. I will have to give up one of these feeders as I will need to unplug the peeler motor for one of these to attach the new wider one. There are no spare JST connectors to add more.

author: Gary.M
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 06:11:44 am
content: I'm interested too. Any 3v owners here?Sent from my MI 8 using Tapatalk

author: ACE5582
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 19, 2019, 11:02:44 pm
content: Hi. I've had the Neoden 3V Advanced for about 6 months now. For the most part I'm happy with it. However, I have had some issues from time to time:1) Sometime the machine doesn't recognize the fiducials from one board to the other (building the same board each cycle). Sometimes I just give up and manual align the fiducials or bypass them completely.2) Sometimes the little pin gets stuck in the tape hole and the head will not go up. I have tried to realign the feed hole location on the tape but to no avail. It seems to be for certain feeder locations.I have not contacted Neoden regarding these but I probably should. Anyone have any suggestions?

author: Fire Doger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2019, 11:22:51 pm
content: Quote from: ACE5582 on February 19, 2019, 11:02:44 pmAre your fiducials designed according to IPC standards? (pdfpage 32)

author: tboicey
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2019, 07:49:29 pm
content: Random experiences with Fiducials on 3V.The Fiducial I use on my boards came from the Adafruit Eagle Library. I basically used it randomly by searching for "Fiducial" in my libraries and picking it. However it works well and looks like the one in the PDF mentioned above.I have also done a couple of hundred boards that had no defined fiducial by picking a random plated hole that was far from others and using it as an automatic alignment point. It worked reliably as well. (the hole was for a through hole component to be added later so typical through hole sized plated hole)The only thing to be careful of is when you are using the magnetic bars to hold your PCB/panel, it's possible they move very slightly each time you change boards and snug them up. Once or twice in my experience the sum of all those little nudges moved the board enough that the Fiducial was not found in the camera's field of view.

author: mendez
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2019, 11:04:00 pm
content: Hello Guys,I'm thinking of getting the 3V because is cheaper than the Neoden 4. I have a few questions:1. Do you regret getting the 3V over the 4?2. Any issues you have?3. How easy is to work with? Specially with the small screen4. Can you share pictures of your setup?5. Is there any good reviews somewhere ? I can't find any articles or youtube videos.Thanks!

author: tboicey
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2019, 12:37:19 am
content: I've already said a lot on this thread but I don't regret getting the 3V at all. The 4 would give me all the board handling features but in the quantities I do (a few hundred boards at a time) it wouldn't end up saving much effort. Between stenciling and feeding the oven, it's not hard to swap boards/panels on the 3V and keep up. (Stenciling is the fastest, oven is the slowest)The real time consuming part is changing all the reels between products, so being able to get the 3V advanced with 40+ feeders for a reasonable price is a big plus. Common parts can stay on the machine and if your projects have somewhat similar BOMs you can keep a few jobs loaded at once.The small screen is no issue, it's obviously booting Windows then switching to a single app full screen, but the screens in the app are not dense so it works. A wireless mouse and keyboard are included but you don't need the keyboard often. The software seems to be the same as the 4, at least from following threads on the 4. I use the same scripts as the 4 guys to produce the CSV file from Eagle to program the machine. The only changes are to component rotation, especially since components on the side and back feeders start at different rotations.Attached are two pics of my machine. The reels are a mix of purchased full reels and 3D printed reels loaded with cut tape, depending on components. Resistors are cheap in full reels so it's sensible to buy a reel of 5000 even if it becomes a lifetime supply. However with most active components I usually buy a few hundred on cut tape and load my own reels. The blue tape is audio splicing tape that I use to attach leaders.The tray on the machine is a 3D printed tray I use to place components that don't come on tape. The machine handles it well. I can feed electrolytic caps from the tray with a bit of trial and error. The machine CAN handle the height of the caps from the tray, but it doesn't allow you to specify the nozzle routing so you have to fiddle the component place order so it doesn't smash already placed capacitors with the one it is carrying. I don't think the 4 solves this problem either?I also placed SOICs from the tray that came on 24mm reels, as it doesn't come with a 24mm lane. I have since purchased a 24mm feeder from Neoden, I will report when I install and test it, curious myself.Any support I've needed from Neoden has been good. I burned out a needle solenoid, but there was an included spare and they sent me replacements as well. That's the only hardware problem I've had, and I may have caused it myself by trying to use a bent feed needle. (which I should have thrown away as they include spare needles as well)

author: ACE5582
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 21, 2019, 12:47:01 am
content: Quote from: Fire Doger on February 19, 2019, 11:22:51 pmGood point. It seems that the fiducials are out of spec... unfortunately the boards I use are customer supplied.

author: mendez
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2019, 01:07:19 am
content: Quote from: tboicey on February 21, 2019, 12:37:19 amWhere did you buy the audio splicing tape? would you mind sharing the link?I was planing on buying this one:https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Splice-Cover-Tape-Extenders/dp/B00968ZJIKbut is like $80The reels are in thingiverse?Thanks!

author: tboicey
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2019, 01:19:50 am
content: I used this tape:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NLYEMBA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1I'm in Canada but had to order it from Amazon US.It works, although after a few months I have seen it fall off. Easy to replace, and only happened to me when the splice sat for a while under a slight tension.Most of the time when I install a reel, I use this tape to splice in some discarded peel tape, thread it, and then use enough components that the splice has passed through the system and can be discarded days or hours later.I've been meaning to open a thingiverse account and upload that tray and the reels. I'll try to get to that in the next few days. PM me if you need sooner.

author: mendez
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2019, 04:32:22 am
content: Quote from: tboicey on February 21, 2019, 01:19:50 amThanks!! that will work

author: Styno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2019, 04:02:28 pm
content: @MendezI'm usingtheseto get cut-tape on the feeders andtheseto splice tapes. Work great. However, when splicing I need to make sure the pocket distance of the splice is the same as the rest of the tape otherwise I get feed issues for the last section of the old tape, but that may be machine (feeder) design specific.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2019, 09:13:41 pm
content: Quote from: tboicey on February 21, 2019, 01:19:50 amI use ordinary masking tape to splice cover tape where I use cut tapes for more expensive parts. It works quite well for most cases.Jon

author: mendez
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2019, 03:52:28 am
content: thats amazing; thanks a lot guys!

author: NeoDen-Haimi
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 22, 2019, 05:32:30 am
content: Hello Dear Mendez,How are you ?This is Haimi from NeoDen.Glad to know that you are interesting our NeoDen3V.We have some video on youtube,you can see how it work at below link:1.2.3.4.May we have your email address?We would like to send you more details by email asap.Or if you have any question,pls feel free write to us.My email :haimi@neodentech.comLooking forward to hearing from you.Thanks and best regardsHaimi

author: tboicey
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2019, 05:55:21 pm
content: Here are the thingiverse links for the 3D Printable reels and parts tray:Reel:https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3446459Tray:https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3447853

author: mendez
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2019, 07:37:39 pm
content: Quote from: NeoDen-Haimi on February 22, 2019, 05:32:30 amThank you. I will be in contact soon.

author: mendez
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2019, 07:39:12 pm
content: Quote from: tboicey on February 23, 2019, 05:55:21 pmThat is amazing! Thanks for sharing!

author: ACE5582
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 25, 2019, 05:23:53 am
content: I'm ordering my second Neoden 3V Advanced today!

author: mendez
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 01:42:16 am
content: Did you guys the 24mm Feeders? If so, how is it working? Is it plug and play?

author: tboicey
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 03:11:10 am
content: I have the 24mm feeder but haven't installed it yet.I'm switching from feeding a part in tubes to from 24mm tape, but I still have a few tubes to get rid of before it is time!I'll likely know in a few weeks.

author: mendez
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 03:16:32 am
content: Oh ok. I will be ordering a 3V soon, and I will get it with (1) 24mm feeder.Do you know how can I pick there components with the 3V?1.https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/c-k/SDA03H1SBD/CKN6062-ND/9499162.https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tt-electronics-bi/23BR10KLFTR/987-1014-1-ND/24090253.https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/e-switch/TL3305AF160QG/EG5350CT-ND/5816195

author: tboicey
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 03:35:12 am
content: I don't think the switch would be any problem with one of the larger nozzles. You might have to lower mount speed so it doesn't spin between photo and place.The others MIGHT be able to be placed from the corner. If they aren't heavy that usually works.

author: mendez
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 03:40:14 am
content: Thanks. Is there any recommended table for the 3V?

author: Rpheroux
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 08:40:09 pm
content: I bought a 3v not long ago. I have been having a heck of a time trying to set it up to produce my first PCB. It keeps placing the chips in the same location, which happens to be the alignment marks. Anyone have any ideas?Bob

author: tboicey
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 02:22:18 am
content: How are you getting your design into the machine? I use Eagle and the script mentioned earlier in this thread.Do your components have X and Y coordinates that seem reasonable and not all 0,0 or all the same?

author: Grad
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 11, 2019, 07:22:28 am
content: If I import top side CSV file the placement is ok, but if import bottom side csv file it places the components as can be seen from the top site. Somehow I have to mirror this file. I use Altium 19 to generate the files and there is no option to make a difference between top and bottom. Anny one an idee how to mirror the file on the Neoden?

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2019, 02:44:29 pm
content: Quote from: Grad on September 11, 2019, 07:22:28 amSimple flip PCB in Altium and create the files again use the new top side pnp file.We are working on a special software to import gerber files and different PNP file formats.It can mirror the design and create new PNP file for bottom side.You receive a preview of data so it's easy to proof.PNP data export in differnt file formats possible too.

author: Grad
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 11, 2019, 02:53:43 pm
content: Did a flip board with the CTRL+F, generated new files but the pick and place has the same coordinates. Am I doing something wrong?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2019, 08:19:27 pm
content: Quote from: Grad on September 11, 2019, 07:22:28 amI wrote a C program to turn my P&P output file (from Protel 99SE) into the format for the Philips CSM84. All coordinates are as seen from the front of the board. So, for the back side I just make all X coords negative, and the CSM has no problem at all using minus numbers in X. Some other P&P software might have an issue with that. The reference corner of the board goes against the main stop and front conveyor rail for placing the back side. For the front side, the X coords are positive, but the reference corner is to the left, so I have to offset the X zero by the width of the board, measured in mm. I've forgotten the detail now, but I'm guessing there needs to be some adjustment of the rotation value for the back side, seems like -90 degrees rotation would have to be changed to +90 degrees, and so forth.Jon

author: Chad.Wagner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2019, 09:34:11 pm
content: How much better is the Neoden 4 compared to the Neoden 3V?I am debating if I can get by with the 3V or if I should move up to the Neoden 4 or S1?I do have some 0.5mm chips.

author: GerardG
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2019, 03:44:17 pm
content: Hello Grad,What did you do?Maybe I can help you.Best regards,Gerard