Vacuum Fluorescent Display Driver - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2024, 03:31:30 am
content: I have an Agilent 53132A counter with a slightly messed up 12-digit display.The odd part:The display is fine during different stages. If I inject 10MHz, the display is fine except the 12th digit, segment C (right bottom vertical segment), remains on (something I could live with), however, if I access a menu, the segment is fine.Injecting around 15MHz sometimes (I emphasize that word) causes digits four and five to have extra segments illuminated; and the same if I access menu options (AUTO TRIG is displayed as AUTOOTRIG). Other times extra commas and/or periods are displayed in multiple locations (hard to tell if it's trying to show a comma or it's just a bright period) Usually the wrong commas and/or periods are also in the fourth and fifth digit.I'm not asking for help diagnosing the issue (unless someone has repaired a similar issue), but mainly I suspect the display driver IC (SN75518FN) because the frequencies seem to be correct if I watch the fourth and fifth digit change from correct to incorrect.The driver chip datasheet (see attached) isn't exactly helpful because I'm unfamiliar with fluorescent displays. The circuit (see attached) uses 32 of the output pins on the chip which correlates to the datasheet. Unfortunately I can't locate the datasheet for the fluorescent display.My initial assumption was this is similar to a seven-segment display and would be 84 driver lines (7 * 12), but this isn't the case since it's only using 32. My next thought is this is scanning using the internal shift register, but this still doesn't mathematically add.The reason(s) I'd like to understand this: obviously to learn, but also maybe to use a logic analyzer (I have a 16-channel unit) to confirm the output isn't matching the input data.Update: looking more, maybe I understood this a bit more than I thought. I'm assuming G1 through G12 activate each digit as the chip scans left to right (or right to left?). Since the chip also outputs SEG-A thru SEG-Q (17 outputs), looking at the display closer reveals each digit is comprised of 14 segments (rather than 7 like I thought), a comma, period, and a dot, this would add to 17.If this is accurate, can I still measure this on a logic analyzer to confirm the chip is bad, and, how are other things on the display shown such as MHz, freq, per, Ch1, Ch2, etc...?

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2024, 05:56:53 am
content: The display looks (see attached) to multiplex 12 digits with each digit consisting of 18 segments:8 line segments (standard a..g) with a split g segment,4 diagonals,2 center verticals,3 colon dots and comma (rightmost digit replaces the dots and comma with annunciators)1 annunciator.I can't explain where two additional driver (SN75518FN) lines are used on the display.How to drive VFDs can be foundhere.In summary, one digit (grid) line is energized (to +38VDC) along with selected segments of that digit (also to +38VDC); all other lines grounded. Then the next digit (grid) + segments are lit, etc. Since the driver is just a SPI consumer, expect a stream of 32 bits * 12 * Hz refresh rate.There is a low AC voltage across the FIL1+FIL2 lines providing a stream of electrons, with the mid-point (split) AC voltage biased (via zener) a few volts above ground so that any grounded driver lines keep that segment or grid off completely (no bleeding from adjacent segments).I'm not sure which (display or driver) is causing the misfiring segments that you're seeing. This is a known problem and has been documented with other HP VFD products such as the 34401A on this forum.You could use your LA to compare the SPI stream with the driver output but be wary of the +38VDC so use a divider. ie. an unchanging SPI stream should produce a unchanging output line state. If not, the driver is bad. If true, and the display shows changing segments, then the display is bad.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2024, 06:13:02 am
content: The display is multiplexed, 14 segments plus colon (DP2), decimal pt (DP1), comma (SEG-COM), annunciators (SEG-COM) and a few others Freq, Gate, Ch1. as simply extra segments per digit.Segments go positive voltage wrt cathode to light them but digit (screen) grids must also go positive to enable a digit, so the segments can light.Note the directly-heated cathode (filaments) are biased at 6.2V up. Not to be confused with end-end voltage which is the filament heater voltage. VFD power supply DC-DC converter U30-A outputs +38V and the filament bias I think done by VR1 or VR2 zeners on the main board.So the VFD sees +31.8V (when '75518 is outputting +38V) at the grid and segments, or -6.2V (relative) (when '75518 is outputting 0V) to bias the VFD into cutoff.If you get segment or digit overlap or smearing, I would suspect the 75518 but also confirm the cathode bias is OK at +6.2V and the anode supply is around +38V. I'm not sure how that Endcott DC-DC converter module is, what's inside.Careful the logic analyzer can handle high voltage +38V signals.You can use a scope and look for the signal swing say 36 to 5V low (@1mA) it has push-pull outputs and can source+sink current.You can force the issue with the '75518, if it has weak outputs by stressing an output pin by adding load resistor and seeing what the output voltage does. Say a 20k to a VFD pin should not cause much change, either to GND or +38V - if the IC is OK.Or the IC is switching slow and overlap between digits is what you are seeing.HV518PJis in production.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2024, 04:51:24 pm
content: QuotePrior I did some research and found exactly what you referred to. I was trying not to guess and just swap without measuring and tried to understand the datasheet.The explanations are helpful, but wow, still a bit confusing. Does each digit turn on and off rapidly? If I'm thinking about this correctly, let's say it's a four-digit display and 1, 2, 3, and 4, come into the serial input. Is '1' sent on all 17 output lines and the associated Gx output selects which digit to light (the far left digit in this example)? After '2' is received, the '1' digit is turned off, and '2' is shown in the second far left digit? It's done rapidly, so to the human eye it's not noticed?My logic analyzer (Kingst 16-channel model LA2016 I believe) shows it can handle +/-50v. I'm uncertain how easy this will be to look at the serial data, figure out which bit is the fourth and fifth digit, and then see that it's outputting something other than the bit in the serial data.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2024, 06:08:23 pm
content: The SN75518FN is a 32-bit serial-in shift register with latched outputs. This is similar to a cascade of 4, 74HC595s.This means that it can receive, via SPI, 32 bits to fill its shift register WHILE the output lines still holds the previous 32 bits steady. The MCU then toggles the LATCH EN pin which moves the serial shift register  outputs into the output latches which will now show a new state on the output lines (all at once). The STROBE input just briefly blanks all outputs (sets to GND) during the transition when the output latches are loaded with new serial-in data (since STROBE is tied to LATCH EN in the schematic).So, as for your example display, the MCU sends 32 CLKs and DATA, then LATCH EN is toggled (LOW-HIGH-LOW) which causes those 32 bits to now appear on the output lines. The MCU waits 4.2ms then outputs the next 32 bit digit data stream. After 4, 32bit streams+4.2ms waits, it cycles back to digit 1. Only 1 grid output is ever enabled at a time otherwise the same segment data will be on in multiple digits.Why a 4.2ms wait? A: You'll want to refresh each digit at least 60 times per second, so for your 4 digit example that's 4 * 60 = 240Hz or 1/240s = 4.2ms. In the 53132A with 12 digits, you'll need at least 12 * 60 = 720Hz or 1/720s = 1.4ms wait. The 32 bit stream needs to be fast enough to complete within one wait, obviously.See attached Noritake diagram. The serial stream of grids and segments appears as a column (say T1). During T1 time, a new 32 bit stream is sent then transitioned to the output latches during the dotted vertical lines time where all output lines are blanked (GNDed) momentarily before showing T2 state on the output lines. I think the reason for the blanking is to make sure all digits and segments are completely off so your eye won't perceive a dim segment that was on in the previous digit.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2024, 06:54:19 pm
content: QuoteSo as I assumed, each Gx selects the associated digit? Since 1, 2, 3, and 4, arrive as serial data, 1 is placed on the output, a blank pulse, Gx selects digit one, and a 1 is shown.The diagram you provided definitely simplifies things.Unfortunately my 16-channel logic analyzer doesn't have enough channels to look at all 32-bits and the input serial line simultaneously; or 17-bits if I ignore the Gx lines. Maybe I can look at 15-bits and see something obvious that will point to the output data being wrong whereas the input serial data is correct confirming the chip is bad.Also, what is the purpose of the serial output pin? I'm guessing it's to feed the selected menu options back to the main board so it knows which settings were selected such as 'Auto Trig'.On a side note, during my initial investigating, I discovered the Microsemi/Microchip replacement IC part number. I need to confirm mine is surface mount, but I was happy to see the chips (or replacement chip in this case) exist.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2024, 08:38:38 pm
content: Yes, each Gx corresponds to one digit. Both the segment data and grid (digit) to enable appear on the driver output lines at the same time. The total display blanking (STROBE=HIGH) only lasts for the duration of the LATCH EN=HIGH toggle (LOW-HIGH-LOW); about 10-50 usecs as per section 4.2 in the Noritake docs.You don't have to monitor all driver output lines. If you know a particular anomaly happens on one digit, then just monitor the segments when that grid pin is enabled. We know the first SPI bit out of the MCU corresponds to Q32 (pin 3) output line which is G1, the next bit is G2, ... bit 12 is G12. The segments bits 13..32 are not readily obvious so you could decode them if you ramp up a frequency input while you monitor a particuar digit. Once all bit positions are decoded to which segment they enable, you can monitor your problem digit while watching the display. If the bit stream doesn't change but the output lines do, that means: bad chip.I'm not sure why they route the serial out of the driver back to the MCU. The MCU knows what it sent. Serial out is used to cascade to the next 75518. Maybe there is another serial-in shift register elsewhere? ie. more than 32 bits are sent before LATCH EN is toggled. The keyboard input is another set of 6 RnCm+READRLC+LKBD lines.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2024, 03:01:32 am
content: Hopefully I'll have time this weekend to take some measurements. To be safe, maybe I'll use a voltage divider to avoid stressing the inputs to the logic analyzer (although it's a bit of work since I'll have to make one for all the channels).Briefly looking at the board tonight to confirm it's a surface mount chip (although the BOM did confirm and it also shows the part number of HV518PJ which I didn't realize - I was looking at the part number next to the IC on the schematic), trying to connect to pins will not be easy without soldering fly leads; something I'm uncertain about since I'd like to avoid damaging anything.The other unfortunate part: the display needs to be removed to access the chip.I didn't see another 75518 for the serial out pin, but did trace it to pin 3 of a 74AC251; seems to be the only location it connects.The schematics seem to have a few errors and/or some weird designs. The first error is in the attached, 5v into a LM317 and 5v out? The other weird thing is the 50ohm input option. Channel 1 uses 51ohms 1W, Ch2 uses two 100ohms 0.25W in parallel.Although some weird things and/or errors, I'll take having schematics so I can repair my electronics than not having them.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2024, 03:37:22 am
content: I think it's most likely an analog problem so the logic analyzer may not be useful. Just scope the display pins - that will reveal plenty.If the '75518 outputs are weak and instead of say +36V/+3V signal swings, you get +35V/+8V the VFD could nuisance glow weak, not be blanked (for that seg/digit).Is that a "1" or a "0" to the logic analyzer?What complicates working on this problem is the VFD has different transconductance depending on its overall age and the seg/digit age. So the same voltages on a commonly used segment/digit verses a rarely lit segment/digit can make a difference between it working or staying stuck on dimly.It's not a fun repair - the IC is stashed underneath the VFD. I had to remove the metal shields, all the while not smashing the glass or nipple around too much. Need extra care and patience. To desolder VFD Kovar pins, I will heat the pin on the board top-side using a soldering iron, and then vac desolder on the back-side. It works fast. The VFD pin and hole size is large.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2024, 07:42:53 am
content: I don't think you need to take apart anything just yet. You have access to the VFD leads so it's just a question of understanding the VFD pinout. Once the pinout is identified and you've done some preliminary 'scope probing (below), you can then use your LA (via a divider).The filament pins are almost always the outer pair which, according to the schematic, are pins 1 and 18.Start with an assumption (see attached). It could be numbered according to the white set or the red set. Or bottom white and top red or vice versa. Or 1 to 18 on top and 19 to 36 on bottom.The pinout is right in theservice docsboard layout (page 3). DUH!You should be able to measure with a multimeter (in VAC mode) about 5.5Vrms between the FIL stubs and either the upper outer leads or lower outer leads. Identifying the filament leads will identify which row the grids are located in, therefore, the opposite row will have most of the segments.Using an oscilloscope, you should be able to probe any lead other than the filaments. You should see square waves from GND to +38V; fast rise/fall-time edges, no runts. I think it's safe to attach your probe GND clip to the chassis which is likely connected to board ground (labelled as DCOM) though I couldn't find any connection between DCOM and PE/chassis in the schematics. If you want to probe between filament leads only do so in differential mode; ie. using two 'scope channels, NO GND CLIPS, math set to A-B channel. That way you won't accidentally short one filament to ground (via GND clip) and possibly kill the DC-DC.FYI: I found anearlier post of minewhich identified adatasheet for the DC-DC converter. The schematic pinout for the part is off by one. The converter actually produces up to 44V which is lowered to 38V via 6.2V zener VR1.As for the 75518 data out going back to the MCU... on further inspection, the SPI topology used isn't the usual MISO/MOSI/SCLK common bus with individual SS per slave. Nooooo.... lets use a star topology where every MOSI/SCLK/SS has it's own 74AC138 and MISO is funnelled through a MUX. The MCU then only needs MISO, MOSI, SCLK, PCS0..2 to select 1 of 8, and PCS3 to the enable pins on the '138s. I still can't explain why it needs to re-read its own output. Display failure detection? Completeness?

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2024, 05:21:04 pm
content: QuoteThe link doesn't appear to work, however, I probably already downloaded the same datasheet earlier this week; or maybe the weekend. Is this the one that supplies the FL1 and FL2 (?) power? If so, yes, I got that datasheet.Also, I read through the thread from the link you provided. The second last message, or one of the last messages, provides an eBay link to "new" VFD's sold out of China. I'm wondering whether to buy a backup (assuming I repair this unit) should mine eventually burn out, dim, or I break it while replacing the driver chip.Last night I had to place a DigiKey order and ordered a few driver chips. It seemed worth the gamble for $7.xx cost of the part. At least this way I'll have the chip on hand should I confirm the driver is bad, suspect, or be unable to get an adequate amount of measurements.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2024, 09:23:58 pm
content: Yes. This one (attached).

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2024, 02:08:17 am
content: Yes, that's the datasheet I found the other night. Thanks for sending the corrected link regardless.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2024, 12:22:31 am
content: I took some quick measurements. While the displayed was showing “AUTOOTRIG”, the G5 pin was snowing a high.This tells me the chip is feeding the wrong data to the display.Just wanted to ask this question before I take more measurements this weekend.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2024, 01:10:18 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on April 13, 2024, 12:22:31 amSure seems like G4 and G5 are both on as witnessed by the double "O" character. That shouldn't happen.Although you didn't describe double/superimposed characters in your original post; just extra segments.Since it's doubtful that the serial stream has both G4 bit and G5 bit on, I'd say it's a bad VFD driver.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2024, 01:39:36 am
content: Sorry…. Unless I’m wrong, I discovered the double O after my initial post; but mentioned it in another follow up.Ideally, just for my own interest, I’d like to see the incoming data and individual digit data for educational purposes, so I’ll take more measurements. I believe the replacement chips are arriving Monday or so, however, I won’t have time mid week to replace it, so updates may be delayed.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2024, 02:48:32 am
content: I'm slightly confused.Attached are two scope measurements. The first one named 'All Hyphens' is the display showing all hyphens and not changing (I set auto trig to 'external' without having an external trigger, so it froze the display). The other is measuring the pins on the VFD (not the IC) - file named accordingly showing which channel is connected to which pin and ('AUTOOTRIG' displayed on the screen).My confusion is not knowing which segment data line lights which display segment (this is something I should and can figure out on my own since my goal is to measure the data lines). Excluding not knowing which data line lights which segment, when a particular G line is activated and shows on the scope, the other channel on the scope should have that segment lit showing 40v. I'm getting confused over seeing a G line go high and then the data just jumps around (obviously different data for different digits), but how do I capture the particular bit for that G line?The other confusion is having all hyphens on the screen. Even though every digit had a hyphen, channel 1 on the scope doesn't show the G line being activated. How can every digit display a hyphen if the G line isn't activated? This would imply that particular digit shouldn't have anything displayed, however, it has a hyphen.The more I thought about things tonight, the more I realized maybe trying to take measurements with a logic analyzer is too involved. If I make voltage dividers for all 16-channels (even though my logic analyzer can handle up to 50v - I'd rather not chance damaging it due to any voltage spikes), I need to connect each divider to each data line - seems I'm increasing my chances of shorting something.My initial concern was to confirm the incoming data to the VFD driver chip was correct. I'm sure the VFD driver chip is the culprit, but I was trying to confirm with seeing the data in versus out. Maybe I may rethink things and just replace the chip.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2024, 03:07:36 pm
content: "I'm getting confused over seeing a G line go high and then the data just jumps around...""... but how do I capture the particular bit for that G line?"As for the "All Hyphens - Ch1 Pin 28 Ch2 Pin 6-1.pdf" file, you're capturing SEG-A (pin 28) which as expected, is 0V. You should be probing SEG-G (pin 35) or SEG-H (pin 36) assuming SEG-A thru SEG-G mean the same segments as the typical 7-segment display; with SEG-H being left or right-half of the center horiz. segment. As to why you're seeing other segment info, try using normal trigger mode, not auto, or lower your trigger voltage to say, 10V. Seeauto/normal explained."The other confusion is having all hyphens on the screen. Even though every digit had a hyphen, ... doesn't show the G line being activated."Maybe SEG-H isn't the other half of the center horiz. line segment. Maybe there is some multiplexing activity that outputs segment data temporarily without any Gx enabled (which won't be visible to the user). MCU funny business.To determine which pin corresponds to which SEG-x, I'd put channel 1 on, say, G2 (pin 6), set trigger to normal on channel 1 to <10V, then use channel 2 to probe around pins 19-36, 3, 4. Then change the value on the G2 digit (2nd from left) and re-probe to confirm the lit segments again.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2024, 03:20:07 pm
content: QuoteWow..... one thing I can't understand about myself is how I dive into these projects more than some, yet, I miss the obvious. You are absolutely correct, I should have considered the fact I was on a data line that was blank.Per your suggestion on probing the other pins to determine the segment order, I somewhat did that. My scope captures unfortunately have both channel 1 and 2 on the same 0v point, so seeing individual pulses is difficult. Ideally I'd like to determine which data lines control which segments so I can provide the information to this forum (assuming it hasn't already been done) to help others who experience the same issues.The annoying part is I'm dealing with too much fluctuations with the unit. Sometimes the display is correct, other times it doesn't. By the time I try capturing the screen with incorrect displays, it changes again. Due to having the cover off, I use the lead of a resistor to short the pads so I can change menu options in attempt to "freeze" the counter (much like I did by setting it to 'external' trigger).Then the data on the scope is jumping around, so I can't tell if I'm not triggering (although I'll try your suggestion on triggering) or if the data line is jumping.Finally, I don't want to accidentally short anything, so I turn off the counter when I move the probe to another pin.I'm either being too cautious, or over thinking.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2024, 01:15:53 am
content: After building a voltage divider and setting up for measuring with the logic analyzer, I finally had time earlier, however, I think more questions than answers came out of it.My logic analyzer is 16-channels, but the chip has seventeen outputs (not including two additional outputs for decimal places). I made the error of accidentally connecting one of my logic analyzer channels to DP2 meaning two of my logic analyzer channels weren't connected to two of the SEG outputs (one accidentally connected to DP2 and unable to connect to the seventeenth data line due to my logic analyzer being sixteen channels).The logic analyzer results was not what I expected. Attached are four CSV files (they may not be worth assembling to show the logic because it contains many data points). The CSV files are named accordingly and I'll also upload some pictures of the display which will show the display at the time of the logic analyzer capture (give me a few minutes).The reason the results weren't as expected: if I kept the logic analyzer set to keep polling, the pulses changed. I expected different because when the display showed (as in one file) all 1's and I removed the input so the display remained frozen, the logic analyzer (as I expected) shouldn't show different pulses each time it polled.If the entire display is twelve digits, and each digit has fourteen (?) segments, and two decimal places, that uses sixteen out of the seventeen data lines (not sure where the seventeenth is used). The G lines are twelve total (for twelve digits?).Due to the display having 'period', 'frequency', 'ch1', etc... and assuming each G line is for each digit, that leaves the question of how does the other stuff get lit? My guess is that more than one G line is on so the data lights MHz, CH1, etc...Unfortunately I didn't have time to investigate this. If my assumption is wrong, then I should see the logic analyzer output to have each channel in sequential order (or no two G lines on simultaneously).Due to the complexity of trying to not damage anything, I'm close to pulling the trigger and just swapping the IC.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2024, 03:33:46 am
content: It's very difficult to fully troubleshoot the problem because it's likely inside an IC - the '518 or MCU that has crosstalk.In the pics I can see right-most digit has "C" segment stuck on, is that the only malfunction in the pics?I would scope that pin on the VFD to see if the '518's output driver has a problem like a weird weak voltage. But it is odd that segment prefers that digit. I was thinking of DRAM/SRAM stuck bits.If you are pulling the VFD, I suggest putting a soft piece of tubing over the nipple, it is extremely fragile and easy to bang. Or scotch tape something maybe.Getting the shields off does take a bit of extra heat, as I mentioned my technique is to use a soldering iron heating on the pin topside, and vac desolder on the other side. A two-handed affair. The VFD holes on the PCB are large though.Some notes I found on the '518 protocol, to help you out if you are still digging:Code:For 53131AThe protocol is similar to SPI. It is clocked at ~1 MHz, with 4 byte word bursts at about 1 kHz rate. It is 5 V logic.The lines and their SPI equivalents are:VFDSCLK - Clock, data sampling on rising edgeVFDSOUT - Data, from MCU to displayVFDSIN - Data, from display to MCU, 32 bit shift registerVFDSEN - Enable, active high, inverted compared to a SPI /SSVFDSCLK:____ _ _ _ _ _ _____\_/ \_/ \_/ ... _/ \_/ \_/VFDSOUT:________________ _______________\___X___X___ ... ___X___X___/VFDSEN:_____________ _____________/ ... \___Bit: (MSB first)0 1 2 ... 29 30 31Every ~976 us (~1024 Hz), there is a 32 bit word, with bits clocked at ~934 kHz. After the first 16 bits, the clock makes a small pause of about 0.5 bit cycle.Each 32 bit word enables one gate (character position) and any combination of segments for that position. The first 12 bits are gate enablers, the first/highest bit enabling the leftmost/most significant character. The segments are 14 bits for the segments of the digit/character display, 3 bits for the separator segments for ".",",", ":" and ";" and 1 bit for the text label under each character. The rightmost character is special; instead of separators the bits enable the "u" (mu) and "s" unit indicators and the "Gate" text label, and it has two extra bits for the "M" and "Hz" unit indicators.A frame has 16 words - 1 for each of the 12 characters, and 4 extra that can be highlighted, x0-x3 below. The frame rate is ~1024 / 16 = ~64 Hz.Below data is shown as big endian, first byte leftmost, and with first bit on SPI as most significant.Bits:0xfff00000 - gate enablers (character position)0x0000fcff - 14 segment character0x00070000 - separators, on rightmost position "u", "s" and "Gate"0x00080000 - text label0x00000300 - on rightmost position units "M", "Hz"Examples:Text: "FREQUENCY 1 "; Labels: "Freq", "Ch1"1000CC8C # char 8 "Q"100000 # char 0 empty2000C087 # char 9 "E"202040 # char 1 "1"4008888F # char 10 "R", label: "Freq"400000 # char 2 empty (space)80008087 # char 11 "F"802030 # char 3 "Y"80000000 # x3 - no highlighting108C084 # char 4 "C", label: "Ch1"80000000 # x2 - no highlighting2008C2C # char 5 "N"80000000 # x1 - no highlighting400C087 # char 6 "E"80000000 # x0 - no highlighting800C40C # char 7 "U"When a character is blinking, it changes between being normally displayed and being highlighted. The character is powered an extra time per frame using word x0-x3 which makes it brighter. The flashing, changing between the character and empty, is done in the normal word for that character. Only the 14 segments of the character seems to beflashing and highlighted, not the indicators or the text labels.As there are only 4 words x0-x3, only 4 characters can be highlighted using this mechanism, and it seems also never more than 4 characters are highlighted and blinking."LIM TEST: OFF", where "OFF" is highlighted and blinking10000000 # char 8 space108087 # char 0 "F"2000843C # char 9 "M"208087 # char 1 "F"400860C0 # char 10 "I", label: "Freq"40C48C # char 2 "O"8000C004 # char 11 "L"800000 # char 3 space80000000 # x3 - empty, no highlight10B20C0 # char 4 "T", separator ":", label "Ch1"108087 # x2 - highlight char 0 "F"20044A1 # char 5 "S"208087 # x1 - highlight char 1 "F"400C087 # char 6 "E"40C48C # x0 - highlight char 2 "O"80020C0 # char 7 "T10000000 # char 8 space100000 # char 0 empty ***2000843C # char 9 "M"200000 # char 1 empty ***400860C0 # char 10 "I", label: "Freq"400000 # char 2 empty ***8000C004 # char 11 "L"800000 # char 3 space80000000 # x3 - empty, no highlight10B20C0 # char 4 "T", separator ":", label "Ch1"108087 # x2 - highlight char 0 "F"20044A1 # char 5 "S"208087 # x1 - highlight char 1 "F"400C087 # char 6 "E"40C48C # x0 - highlight char 2 "O"80020C0 # char 7 "T

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2024, 03:48:33 am
content: QuoteIn the pics I posted, if I'm not mistaking, the commas and/or periods are wrong, and it's not showing "MHz".Sporadically, digits four and five are wrong, commas and/or periods are wrong, and, usually, in all cases (I believe) "AUTOOTRIG" is displayed.Unfortunately I don't have a solder VAC just solder braid and a solder plunger (the manual pump and push button release type).I think to save time and reduce the risk of damage, I may just move forward with replacing the HV518 chip.I was hoping to figure out which data line and G line toggled which segment(s) in each digits, and not only gain some knowledge, but provide the information back to this thread for others to learn from and/or help diagnose issues on their end.Since I have the logic analyzer out and the display sitting outside the unit, I'll probably measure the G lines on the logic analyzer; and then move forward with replacing the chip.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2024, 04:07:07 am
content: If desoldering a few VFD pins doesn't go well, I'd suggest getting a decent handheld vac desoldering tool. I find braid is hard on boards, for heat and abrasion on larger TH pins. Unless you have a good technique.We used Soldapullt back in the day they were good if greased well. The chinese ones I hear many are useless. The test was to see how much suction it had on your finger, the piston should move slow if the tip is blocked.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2024, 12:45:57 am
content: The G lines are equally confusing. This is with a frozen 5MHz (5.0000000000) on the screen.The data on the analyzer lines that are not labeled weren’t connected. For some reason they are picking up stray signals and showing on the captures.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2024, 03:12:07 am
content: I don't see G12, G5, G2 being enabled at all and G1 signal looks scrambled with four extra pulses, offset in time as well. The shift-register looks defective

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2024, 03:19:25 am
content: The shift register inside the HV518 chip?I agree that the signals don't look correct, however, oddly enough, the display is almost correct (12th digit has the segment C lit and nothing else - segment C being the right vertical bottom).Hopefully this weekend I'll have time to replace the chip.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2024, 03:34:41 am
content: I would look at the G1 with a scope to see actual voltages. G1 might be not be driven (floating) or the 518's shift register is wonky.This thread, it sorta seems like the OP found VFD had internal leakage but not sure about the English, his bench test of the VFD:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/hp-agilent-53181a-display-error/msg1399630/#msg1399630Inside the VFD is a set of close PCB traces that very rarely have some ion migration happen.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2024, 01:17:15 pm
content: I'll check with a scope.I read that thread. personally I'd like the path of bench testing the VFD solo as a second step rather than risk damaging it (assuming it's not the culprit).Since the fourth and fifth digit work sporadically, my assumption is: this isn't a short in the VFD. Before it seemed the fourth and fifth digit was failing around >15MHz, but then it began working correctly. Sometimes the display would show the frequency in ten or maybe eleven digits, other times the full twelve; but it was always the correct frequency (ignoring the in correct decimal and comma locations - at least I remember/believe they were wrong).The only consistent error is the 12th digit segment C (?) remaining illuminated. Maybe periods/commas, but I believe those shift too.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2024, 10:48:53 pm
content: I scoped G1 and it had many more pulses than G2 and G3, so I moved forward with replacing the chip.The good news: the new chips seems to have fixed it. Can’t say for sure, but I didn’t see digit twelve have the lit segment. I wanted to see if it displayed AUTO TRIG or AUTOOTRIG (somewhat of a true test), tried pushing the menu options, accidentally got it in count mode where it was counting pulses, so I turned off power and repowered it to get the default stage.The bad news: when it repowered, the display may have come on for a split second (I wasn’t staring at it) and vanished. LEDs light and got a brief moment I saw a faint sign of life on the display where it showed something.I didn’t move anything, nothing was near it to short, etc… Just a simple repower.FL1 and FL2 measure 5.8v DC, so I’m assuming the supply blew, but don’t know why.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2024, 09:31:56 pm
content: Look if the VFD filament wires are glowing dim orange. Recheck your soldering, especially to the (filament) pins which are on the far outside ends of the tube.I'm not clear what it is doing now.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2024, 11:49:09 pm
content: I assume you mean the wires behind the glass?Nothing seems to glow even faintly. Tomorrow I’ll reflow the pins, but I tend to go heavy with the solder regardless. A quick look earlier didn’t reveal any indication of bad solder or lack of, however, anything is possible.Odd it was working and nothing more than a power recycle resulted in the display not lighting.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2024, 01:58:50 am
content: With power off, I would measure ohms and look for a short, on the HV rail and around the new 518 IC. If it bagged and is shorted, it would overload the DC-DC converter and possible its supplying rail. It might be why you see no filaments, although you said you measure 5.8VDC. I thought the DC-DC output AC to the filaments?Once I had an Aliexpress special IC, lasted about 1 minute and cratered after a power down/up sequence. Thanks liaoxiyuan/SICSTOCK store for that waste of time.TheHV518is susceptible to latch-up, they actually have a power up sequence in Sect. 3.2; The 5V rail must be the first to come up and last to go down, wrt VPP. I put a Schottky diode between the two rails to do this, but not something to do wrong and maybe your rail capacitance is low value. It's just a strange happening.Worst case the VFD has an internal low resistance or short, since the 518 is push-pull output, it could roast if two outputs arm wrestle each other. Does that make sense? Any solder bridge between two outputs could do that as well.You can check ohms at the display pins, as if adjacent on the 518.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2024, 02:11:46 pm
content: QuoteAt the time I only had schematics handy and saw it's a "DC-DC" convertor, so I assumed it was DC out, however, I should have included that I measured the AC as well, it was approximately 600mV; but I measured this with respect to ground and maybe needed to measure across.The datasheet specifies pins 5 and 7 are AC, but doesn't give a voltage. The schematic shows FL1 and FL2 are on pins 4 and 6, so that's a bit confusing.Later today or tomorrow (hopefully) I'll take the steps you suggested. Usually I start with the obvious such as do I have voltage(s). My personal rule is first figure out what happened between when something worked and when it didn't. Since the only anomaly in that process was me replacing the chip, seems the obvious route is to start with soldering issues.My other thought is the replacement IC takes more current and damaged the convertor. My somewhat focus is on the fact the display was working until I recycled power. As you suggested, a power up sequence failure, shorted pins, etc... so I'll look and report what I find.Update: just for reference, this is the chip I ordered and installed HV518PJ-G (DigiKey part number: HV518PJ-G-ND)

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2024, 01:04:10 am
content: All the solder connections on the VFD looked good, however, I re-flowed them anyway including the ribbon cable.FL1 and FL2 to ground is high impedance, 9.7ohms across the two pins FL pins, and approximately 1.3ohms across the two FL pins when the ribbon cable is connected to the unit. All other pins on the VFD to ground was (I believe) 4xx k. Not sure if these are good, but seems correct based on the FL lines being AC (most likely this is the resistance of the output transformer).I found a previous message that states the DC/DC pins are off by one which makes sense when compared to the schematic.Tomorrow I'll measure the SEG lines to see if they are going to approx. 38V, but what should the AC voltage be?As for measuring the new HV518, obviously the VFD needs to be removed again, and this eliminates measuring voltages under a load since the VFD isn't connected. The other thing I'm keeping in mind is the start up sequence.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2024, 02:43:37 am
content: I would check the VFD's getter has not gone white due to air ingress in the tube.A '518 output short to another or to ground would heat up the IC and possibly damage it. Look for any solder bridges or just beep it out checking continuity. You can do this with the display in, also ohmmeter the pins to ground, look for shorts.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2024, 02:12:36 am
content: Doesn’t look cracked, so this is a good thing.The DC-DC seems different than the schematic, but I’m not seeing 38v.The G lines and segment lines are all DC sitting around 5 and 3v. I did a quick test to see if anything is shorted, but I didn’t realize the IC pins are in a different order than the VFD pins, so I need to do more measuring.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 12:58:52 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on April 30, 2024, 02:12:36 amYou should see +38VDC at the J1 (display-main PCB) connector pin 21 and pin 23 (GND). The DC-DC is actually outputting more; approx +44VDC. It's lowered at the J1 connector due to the 6.2V zener VR1.ACV between J1 pin 22 and pin 24 should be approx. 5.5Vrms.Of course measuring any G or segment VFD pin will just show you the average voltage due to the multiplexing.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 02:32:50 am
content: What would I see if the getter or glass was cracked? You mentioned white, but wanted to ask if it could show something else too.I already tried measuring the 38v at J1 and the voltage wasn't present. For all I know the IC is pulling down the 38v and the DC/DC is fine, but who knows.Hopefully tomorrow evening I'll have time to measure the IC pins via the VFD pins for shorts. I can't imagine a solder short between two pins since the display worked for a short time, but I was the only anomaly between the time it worked and the time it didn't, so I'm not ruling out a solder short.On another note, I thought maybe I was onto something because yesterday I realized the fan wasn't spinning. Seems the fan has trouble starting without a little manual push, however, initially I thought maybe something was wrong in the AC/DC so some excitement began building. If the display ever works again, looks like the unit will need a new fan.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 03:22:38 pm
content: If the DC-DC converter is overloaded, it will get hot. See if the heatsink is a finger burner or not. It would also load up the supplying +5V rail.HP p/n 0950-2325, ERG E2577VF is just a TDKCD-1848Prated 5.2Vrms 120mA, 43VDC 38.6mA (similar also used in HP-3458a I believe).If air gets in a tube, the Getter turns white and can flake off inside. The filaments will draw a ton of current because they don't make it to their hot resistance, they stay cold.I mentioned that possibility as a reason for the DC-DC converter getting overloaded. Otherwise it's a soldering fault or the 518 is bagged, possibly due to a defective (shorted) VFD.It's not easy fixing this, takes a lot of patience. Hang in there.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2024, 02:34:31 am
content: Earlier I took measurements to see if I could find any shorted pins.I made a few errors due to not realizing pins 21-24 weren't in sequential order with the SEG lines, so I measured DP2 to SEG-E (by way of measuring the VFD pins directly) thinking the pins on the IC were next to each other.. By the time I realized this error, it was late and had to call it a day.From the measurements I took, none of the pins were shorted, however, one odd thing I noticed was SEG-COM wasn't connected to ground (unless I'm wrong, I've been using chassis ground as it appears ground is connected to chassis ground).Maybe SEG-COM is floating, but thought to mention it.After measuring for shorts, I powered the unit and took scope measurements (see attached - file names are according to which pin was measured). Upon powering it, I checked the heatsink (again) and it was fairly cool. After keeping the unit powered for about fifteen-minutes (the longest I've kept it powered since the display stopped working) while taking scope measurements, I turned off the unit and touched the heatsink. This time it burned the back of my index finger; believe this indicates something is wrong.The 5v measures about 4.8v I believe, however, whichever the voltage is falls within the range in the service manual.Update: I didn't think to include my next step(s). Looking at the schematic tells me possibly one of the two capacitors are bad, however, looking at the board, I don't see an electrolytic; nor do I see the same components on the board as the schematic.I'll check the resistance to ground before the diode, but it's looking like I may need to remove the VFD again.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2024, 06:01:42 am
content: There's a number of issues I see....First of all, I believe SEG-COM is the comma segment; not a ground. Your 'scope ground clip should be on J1 pin 23 (or any point marked DCOM). The chassis is probably connected to DCOM but I can't find that explicitly in theschematics.Tantalum caps are known to short. Given that the 5V supply is 4.8V, check C62 (at pin 1 of the DC-DC) but that could be any other tantalum elsewhere too. The 38V waveform seems to be loaded down (to ~13V). Check C129 and C243** (at pin 3* of the DC-DC). This is the likely problem (of all segments off) and yet there isn't any activity on G5 or SEG-A either (may be multiple problems here).Clearly there is something wrong with VFDSEN as it seems to show activity but I would expect the waveform low levels be close to ground (at mid screen). Seems a bit too noisy... May not have a good ground connection on the probe.VFDSDOUT and VFDSDIN similarly never make it to ground (at mid screen). It's hard to tell if VFDSDIN is showing data but has a bad ground or is just induced noise (from adjacent traces) on line that's stuck high. If it's the latter, then I'd expect all segments be on. Probably a bad probe ground.FL1, FL2 appear to be above ground by 6V as expected due to VR2 zener (at pin 5* of the DC-DC) and are 5V peak-to-peak (if you ignore the weird spike to ground). I guess that's a pass-able waveform for a center-tapped transformer secondary.*: pin marked incorrectly in schematic vs. DC-DC datasheet.**: if your board is the 60024 PCB version on page 53 vs without on the 60014 PCB version on page 22.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2024, 01:16:22 pm
content: I agree about things seeming odd and the possibility of multiple issues.Upon soldering the new IC, I should have measured all the pins to check for shorts. The soldering was done under a microscope and I was confident bridges didn't occur, but anything is possible. With J leads, my limited experience has always been more about trying to get solder between the pin and the pad (which occurred several times while soldering this chip).Not having activity on the G line (I measured a random G line just to show the signal) I thought could be attributed to the low 38v. Due to the DC/DC getting hot leads me to believe this is the issue to chase, but at some point this weekend (if I have time) I'll remove the board and look around the DC/DC board.Am I wrong, or is the schematic different than the DC/DC board? If you look at the picture of my DC/DC board I included above, it shows four resistors (or a combination of resistors and inductors) but the schematic shows three (if you include whatever E4 is), also my board has three diodes, and the schematic shows two.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2024, 03:09:13 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on May 03, 2024, 01:16:22 pmThe schematic doesn't speak to the components on the DC/DC PCB itself; it's a black box figuratively and literally with the 0950-2325 label below it. The parts on the schematic are on the green PCB surrounding the DC/DC; they're silkscreened: VR2, VR1, C62, E4, L3, ... E4 is a SMT ferrite bead.What's also interesting is theE2577VFpart that I thought was the OEM has a different pinout to yourCD 1848P TDKpart (see "B. Positive voltage output type" on pg 2) which matches the schematic pin numbering. Nevermind what I said earlier about off-by-one pin numbering.Quote from: bostonman on May 03, 2024, 01:16:22 pmRegardless of the low 38V supply, if there is no G-line activity that tells me that serial info isn't being received or gated to the output via enable pin. If your probing was correct, then the TTL levels are off; they never get to ground (just flapping between 3-5V)

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2024, 05:04:27 pm
content: In case I didn’t specify, or specify correctly, all my measurements were to chassis ground.Next time I’ll try a different ground; and shorter.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2024, 12:47:27 am
content: Just measure ohms/continuity to confirm your measurement ground is correct, from the BNC's, the chassis, the PC board ground etc.If the scope traces are right then I think the new '518 has shorted. Any output shorted to another, the shields etc. the IC would be overloaded. Or I wonder if the new '518 got zapped with ESD somewhere?I'd measure diode-test/ohms from each output to adjacent one, to GND to +HV etc. to fish for a problem. You can do that at the VFD pins.Usually I cut the pins to take out a PLCC instead of hot air, it's easier on a board. If you replace the '518 you could leave the display out to make sure things work to it.Tiny chance the VFD has an internal short - but you would see it with an ohmmeter right now.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2024, 01:24:59 pm
content: I may have been confused about the CD-1848P. I thought this was a DC/DC converter, however, yesterday I removed the board and it looks like a transformer. Underneath the silscreen reads 'trans', I saw magnetic wire, and it looked like multiple windings.The transistor (NEC C2334) that gets hot (next to the CD-1848P) had two pins with low resistance, but, after removing the board from the main PCB, the transistor measures normal; I'm assuming the low resistance is due to connections through the transformer windings that are made when the board is soldered onto the main PCB.Yesterday I measured all the pins on the new 518 and didn't find any shorts. At this point I plan to remove this chip, power the unit, and see if the34v38V returns to normal.Seems hard to believe I got a bad batch of ICs, but I guess it's possible. I'm considering buying a socket rather than soldering another IC onto the board, but one capacitor may be in the way, and it's also a week of waiting for them to arrive from DigiKey.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2024, 02:23:06 am
content: I successfully removed the new IC and now the +38V measured approximately 44V on the meter (it was approximately 13V with the 'new' IC. The higher voltage is probably due to it being unloaded.Also, the transistor with the heat sink remained cool, however, it's not supplying any current at the moment, so I wasn't surprised.After giving consideration to using a socket, I decided to order three (two for a backup) and shipped them three-day; along with the transistor that's on the heat sink. I planned to replace other parts too such as the smaller transistor since maybe it took some high current too, but decided to wait to see if I repair this unit.At least now I'll (hopefully) have a socket in place and can remove the IC much easier if need be.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2024, 03:27:31 am
content: Do confirm there is enough room (height) available as I believe it has to fit underneath the display.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2024, 02:30:53 pm
content: Believe it or not, I realized the potential height issue a few hours after ordering the sockets.I devoted time thinking whether using one was worth it, saw the surface mount capacitor was far enough away, and forgot the display was going on top.Edit: let me rephrase that and say the desire to get the sockets delivered quickly overshadowed my thought process on whether they'd physically fit.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2024, 04:36:47 pm
content: The socket I ordered is: 8444-21A1-RK-TPLooking at the IC, it has a maximum height of 0.18 with a normal of 0.172. The socket has a height of 0.181, however, without realizing, I ordered the one with location post which adds height; but I can cut them.Providing the IC sits flush (or below) in the socket, looks like the socket is the same height based on maximum height of the IC.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2024, 12:59:49 am
content: Well, the sockets arrived and I wasn't comfortable with the height. They appeared borderline (after cutting the positioning posts), and, inserting an IC to test whether the IC would extend even further would result in trying to yank it out without damaging it.Rather than risking it, I soldered in the new chip even though I really wanted a socket.After soldering, I measured pin-to-pin to check for solder shorts (didn't find any), and checked all solder connections with the board at an angle under the microscope.An initial power up (without the display) showed the 38V was up around 44V (probably due to being unloaded), the G lines were clocking with nice pulses, SEG lines were clocking with nicesquare wavespulses, and nothing was getting warm at all.Now the question is whether installing the display will result in the chip getting damaged again.Keep in mind, none of the display pins were shorted to (chassis) ground, however, I'm also uncertain exactly how the display works to have an idea which pins could be susceptible to shorting or cause the IC to blow.Any suggestions on what to look for before I solder the display? The time to solder it isn't necessarily an issue, it's more than I don't want to keep applying heat to all the pads. The IC pads have already taken a beating with hot air twice and soldering twice; not including having to reflow pins that didn't flow correctly to the pads.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2024, 04:44:36 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on May 10, 2024, 12:59:49 amWith the display free, I'd confirm:a. that there is some non-zero but non-open resistance between the filament pins, andb. no continuity exists between a filament pin and any grid pin or segment pin or between grid and segment pins.ie. MM in continuity mode, black lead on pin 1, scan with red lead from pin 2 onward. Then, black on pin 2, scan with red lead from pin 3 onward. Etc.There should only be a small-ish resistance between 1 and 18 (filament pins). All other pairs should be open.If the above passes, you can quickly confirm that everything works by...just spreading the display pins out a bit and place them into their PCB holes; holding the display down with an elastic or just your fingers. There should be enough springiness to maintain a connection.Then turning on the power for a few seconds to confirm that the segments light.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2024, 01:26:34 pm
content: Thanks for the feedback, I'll make sure to take all those measurements.QuoteMaybe I'm wrong because it was hard to see if every segment in every digit lit correctly, but after installing the first IC (the one that blew), the display seemed to work fine. It was re-powering that seemed to cause things to go south. Either way, all I can do is take initial measurements based on your feedback and keep my fingers crossed.Most likely I'll have updates by late weekend.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2024, 05:17:10 pm
content: We don't know why the new IC failed, so I'd grasp at a few straws.While the VFD is out, I would rule out any shorts within the VFD. I don't have direct experience with this, nothing low enough resistance to blow the driver IC, so this could all be a goose chase.I'm not sure an ohmmeter would find them. I'd use a higher voltage test, say 25V with 10k series resistor, probing between between each of the segments, and then the digits etc. Leave the filament out/off. Just looking for a mystery low resistance occurring above a few volts.Inside the tube, spacings are very small. I have seen some contamination/ion migration between segments cause dim or fuzzy appearance due to aging. Another person thought their short was the fine PCB-like traces running along inside the back of the tube, where the bridge occurs. You can look at the VFD's backside to see what I am talking about.So at least look for leakage (resistance) between VFD elements.I power a VFD up on the bench, it's not too hard just need two power supplies and a few resistors. I rejuvenate them in two ways and have good success. The contamination/ion migration between grid and segments I have no idea what it is but am able to see and reverse it. If I can find my notes maybe spell it out for people to try. If the VFD's phosphor has aged or is burned, nothing can be done there but the VFD's emission can be helped I find.Last straw to grasp, otherwise- as I mentioned a power cycle can make a '518 latch-up if the 5V rail comes up late or falls first during a power up/down per the datasheet. I think it's a separate 5V reg on the board. Maybe look at the 5V reg output cap and others, see if its value is OK.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2024, 05:21:10 pm
content: I found this pic in my collection and somebody seems to have added socket pinsalthough the VFD pins are flat Kovar with some oddball plating to make solder stick.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2024, 09:21:18 pm
content: Wow, those pins look useful. Maybe I’ll try those around my fifth IC replacementI’m about to go take some measurements and maybe solder the VFD back in afterwards.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2024, 11:46:38 pm
content: Update.I measured all the pins on the VFD. Filament pins were about 9.3ohms, 2- to 36 were shorted (but the traces have them tied together), all other pins were high impedance.Soldered the VFD, soldered a fly lead to the 38V, connected the scope to it, powered, and the display worked (all segments seemed to be correct). The 38V was a solid 38V.Left it powered for about 90s, turned off power, left it unpowered for about 3-5s, turned on power, no display, and the 38V was about 12V. Several power recycles and still no display.I’m so confusedEdit: wanted to add that the counter was free running meaning I didn't have anything connected to the BNCs, so it was displaying random numbers, however, if this matters, it didn't seem it wanted to display twelve-digits and was maybe ten instead. I noticed this with the original (bad) chip and thought maybe it auto selects the number of digits based on frequency or whatever.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2024, 12:52:57 am
content: It seems to be eating HV518PJ'sI can hear your screamsSounds a bit like what happened here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/hp-agilent-53181a-display-error/shorted segments inside the VFD. I would PM the guy to confirm.Originally I saw that you had SEG-C lit when it should have been off (when showing 2) and thought it was the '518.Is the VFD shorting after being warmed up a bit, or is the IC latching-up, or getting very hot (due to VFD short) and then it dies? That's why I advocated testing the VFD out of circuit. It could be a very weird Itron/Noritake failure mode.edit: notice the tight spacings on the VFD internal bus from a similar (not the same part number) display

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2024, 01:22:56 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on May 11, 2024, 11:46:38 pmGood, as expected. I have a large format clock display with a 6R filament.QuoteShorted?I don't understand.Oh, you mean only the pin2-to-pin36 pair was shorted. That may be acceptable since pin 2 and pin 17 aren't normally connected; ie. may serve an internal structural need.Other than between pins 1 and 18, and ignoring pins 2 and 17, all other pin pairs should be open (have high resistance when the display is out-of-circuit). If not, this is what's killing the driver chip.You can test the display out of circuit with two DC power supplies (with common ground); +5V and +30V. Set current limit of both supplies to 100mA max.+5V ---47R filament resistor--- pin1, then pin 18 to ground.+30V ---10K grid resistor--- Gn pin (where n=1 thru 12)+30V ---10K segment resistor--- SEG_m pin (where m=A thru Q, DP1, DP2, COMM)All three must be connected for one segment of one digit to light.Iterate for all segments of all digits to find the short (the one that needs more current to light).You shouldn't need less than 10K (to force higher current) for the segments to light but if you do find a short, may be intentionally driving 100mA through it (via47R330R vs 10K) may fix it. <== speculation on my part.The display is likely FUBAR.Seethison how to test VFDs.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2024, 02:21:48 am
content: QuoteI used the word short (which they were), but it could have been a bit misleading. The follow up somewhat clarified they are suppose to be "shorted" since I followed the trace showing they are connected electrically.I'm only thinking out loud and NOT rejecting testing the VFD and also elaborating a bit. Upon first powering after installing the new chip and the display worked, the DC/DC was not getting warm at all. It was actually cold. If the VFD had a short, rhetorically asking, why would the 518 continue working and the DC/DC staying cold? Also, this display worked fine (ignoring the bad segments) until I began installing the replacement 518's somewhat implying the VFD isn't shorted and something funky is going on with these new chips.Upon repowering, it's not even the display shows something for a brief moment, it just doesn't come on at all, the DC/DC begins getting warm, and the +38V never goes beyond approx. 12V. I did notice the +38V takes time to discharge when I turned off the unit after the first power up and wonder if this is an issue.The failure mode in my opinion indicates the IC is latching, but, if it's latching, why does it power fine the first time (unless the +38V taking long to discharge after the first power up/down is a hint).QuoteI'm scared of blowing up the VFD, so I want to confirm.Connect +5V to to pin 1 with a 47ohm resistor in series. Pin 18 gets connected directly to ground?+30V to Gn pin with a 10k resistor in series - obviously to pin 1 - 12 one at a time. The ground on the +30V channel also gets connected to pin 18 (or the ground banana jack on channel 1 that's being used for +5V)?Now I take the same 10k that's connected to (let's just say G1) and also touch it to segment A (then B, C, etc...) at the same time? I know this is the answer because segment A can't light until a G line activates the proper digit, but I want to make sure. One wrong move with the VFD and I'm really in trouble.On a side note, I may have only one IC left. So one more failure, and I'll be ordering more and/or repairing pads that eventually lift.

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2024, 02:48:26 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on May 11, 2024, 11:46:38 pmBummer !Could be turn off, or turn on, or turn on into a partially charged load, that kills things.It survives initial ON, so a cold start appears to be OK ?

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2024, 02:54:08 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on May 13, 2024, 02:21:48 amMaybe it does not like re-powering into a charged load ?You could add some overvoltage clamps and ab active discharge, that is off with LV rail present, put pulls HV down when LV is gone ?Quote from: bostonman on May 13, 2024, 02:21:48 amMaybe time to fit the socket ?

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2024, 02:56:18 am
content: I was about to update my previous post, but saw another reply.QuoteJust to clarify: install new chip, power on, everything works, power off, power on, and display no longer works.I'm re-reading the datasheet about the power down sequence. It states Vpp should be powered down, all inputs, and then Vdd. Now if the +38V (Vpp) is slowly discharging, maybe it remains high too long and the inputs along with Vdd have already turned off.Maybe this is the issue and I need to make the +38V turn off quicker?

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2024, 05:50:04 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on May 13, 2024, 02:21:48 amI see. I think you should ignore pins 2 and 17 for any testing purposes since the schematic has them unconnected.QuoteI agree that on first power up, given that the display is working, does seem to confirm that the filament nor the grid and segments aren't too much of a load on the driver chip. However, testing the display out-of-circuit will confirm that there's no excessive draw. ie. that a 47R filament resistor, 10K segment and 10K grid resistors is enough to light a segment. And to iterate over all grids and segments to confirm there isn't a bad one in the bunch.QuoteAll I could find in the HV518 datasheet (page 11, section 3.2) is that Vdd (+5V) should be powered before Vpp (+38V) and Vpp should be powered-down before Vdd. Maybe by adding a 10K resistor between Vpp and ground will provide a minimal load (3.8mA) to drop that rail before the bulk caps drop the +5V rail.QuoteYes. See attached diagram.QuoteYes. See attached diagram.QuoteA different 10K (from +30V) to the segment of choice. See attached diagram.Note, the grid and segment voltages don't have to be exact; just not more than +38V. It should light with anything north of 20V.Just make sure that the filament doesn't see more than 100mA (hence the 47R) and NEVER shows a red glow. And if you do find a segment or grid that won't light with a 10K resistor in series, then lower it no less than 330R (ie. no more than allowing 100mA on any grid or segment).The 47R and 10K resistors should limit the current fine but if you have constant current capable power supplies, set them no more than 100mA just in case of oopses.QuoteIt sucks to find out the hard way.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2024, 01:40:04 pm
content: QuoteRough day of yardwork and lack of sleep, I should have realized a different 10k resistor.Thankfully I didn't use too much solder to reinstall the VFD (planned to reflow after confirming the unit was fixed), so unsoldering should be easier.I fully agree that testing the VFD is important to ruling out at least one anomaly. If I were giving advice to someone, asking them to rule out other pieces in the puzzle would be my first approach. I'll place an amp meter in series to note the current for each segment.As for the slow discharge of the +38V, it's not just slow, I mean (at 10V/div) the DC line crawls. I didn't measure the time, but I'd estimate a good ten-seconds and it was still >20V.Before I remove the VFD, I'll put probe on the 5V and +38V (now approx. 12V) and check the timing during power down. I'm guessing the 5V will reach 0V long before, however, due to the chip being blown, the measurement will be skewed. It's unfortunate the datasheet doesn't specify what happens if the 'shut down' sequence isn't followed; maybe at some point tech support will help, but let me confirm the VFD first.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2024, 02:24:40 am
content: Attached are two scope measurements - file names are named accordingly. Edit: note that Vcc was taken from pin 10 of the ribbon cable (main board end).Remember the +38V is now being loaded by the damaged IC and measuring approx. +12V (for those who are new to this thread)As I expected, the discharge rate on the +38V is quite fast since (I'm assuming) the chip is low impedance and sinking the voltage(s) quicker.It's unfortunate I didn't measure the turn off rate of the +38V when the chip was working, but I remember it being quite slow. If the 5V turns off at the same rate regardless if the chip is good or bad, then a good possibility is the +38V turns off before thus going against the datasheet suggested turn-off sequence.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2024, 03:40:47 pm
content: Just wanted to clarify one thing: I still plan to test the VFD out of circuit. As I previously mentioned, before removing it, I wanted to measure the +38V discharge rate.Hope nobody thought I was ignoring the suggestions of testing it out of circuit.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2024, 11:32:50 pm
content: What V/div? I see Ch. 2 at 1V/div for a noisy 5V, and Ch. 3 at 2V/div for 11V.For testing a VFD, I'll use a 10Ω 5W resistor in series with a bench PSU to power the filament. This is just to limit inrush current and give coverage for an ill-behaved power supply doing some overshoot, some are terrible at power on/off or going in/out of CC mode if you use it, they surge. The tube is around 10Ω cold and 40Ω hot. To rejuvenate an old tube, I will slowly ramp up to 2x filament voltage to burn off oxides/contaminants, hold for 30 seconds and then let the VFD cool down for a few minutes. Do not bang or move the VFD at all when doing this.The HV518PJ appears different (BIDFET) than the SN75518 (Bi-CMOS) output pin uses a BJT vs MOSFET to source current.My money is on the tube having a short inside. Or a 5V rail cap is low value, it looks noisy.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2024, 01:11:46 am
content: QuoteYes, 1V/div and 2V/div.QuoteThe difference in ICs wasn't something I analyzed, but my thought was the ICs are different and need a different turn-off sequence than what the unit was designed for.Fast forwarding and assuming the VFD isn't shorted (I'll update once I get data), I've been thinking about the next step and how to somehow test the IC with the display rather than solder it in. The time and money for new ICs isn't an issue, it's more I'm worried about pads lifting due to excess heat. Also, since I don't have a clue why the ICs are failing, then it's a waste to continue soldering new ones in.I probably know the answer to this, but is the 10ohm value essential? I have 15ohms, 50W and 20ohms, 20W I can put in parallel.Most likely the 15ohms is fine (50W is overkill, but all I have in high wattage), but wanted to double check.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2024, 01:59:23 am
content: Given that the DC-AC (TDK CD-1848P) filament output spec is 5.2V@120mA, a 1W filament resistor would be overkill.The higher the resistor value, the dimmer the display. If high enough, you won't see anything at all.However, given 40R when operating (therefore, 5V/40R=125mA), adding 15R won't likely lower the current such that you won't see anything (5V/(40+15)R = 90mA).

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2024, 02:57:07 am
content: I mentioned the resistor I used 10Ω 5W because the PSU voltage has to be set higher and it's what I had it my junkbox. Just being lazy about the power rating including at rejuvenating overvoltaging it.The 47Ω 2W you'd need almost 13V to get ~6V on the filament and a person might fret over that. 15Ω 1/2W I estimate 8V to get ~6V on the filament.Also, I think 38V for HV is high because on the bench the VFD is not being multiplexed, so 25-30V is plenty bright for static drive. But the 10kΩ will limit current too.I've had a couple weird effects happen with these VFD's- they don't behave like even a triode.Even the filament glow along only half its length, ending at a digit grid with +HV on it. Segments can have an odd blue glow that goes away after a few seconds, with the anode left open. That glow never returns so I assume some contaminant between segments and something else, migrated. The segments were no longer fuzzy.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2024, 03:27:40 am
content: On the power sequencing, where is the trace of the 38V rail?The DC-DC converter is powered from SW+5V which is switched by Q12/C159, so it should fall fast. But C129 is huge 470uF 63V makes me wonder why.The 5V rail for the '518, as you mentioned schematic shows U7 LM317 but it's probably a 7805? I'm not sure where the feed is from.I'm just looking for what could scuttle the power supply sequencing.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2024, 02:58:36 pm
content: QuoteI assume you're referring to my two scope captures? Channel 2 is Vcc (the green) . It's set to 1V/div and channel 3 (purple) is the +38V (but it's only measuring +13V since the IC is in "failure mode"). The time per division is 20ms.Not sure if you already knew all this, but wasn't sure which portions of the captures you were inquirin about.Vcc was taken from pin 10 of the ribbon cable on the main board end (I'm assuming it's the same Vcc that feeds the HV518, but the VFD is connected at the moment so I can't be 100% certain). +38V was taken directly at the ribbon cable pin on the front panel end.As previously mentioned, upon first installing the new IC and turning off power with the VFD installed, if I remember correctly, the +38V took a very long time to discharge. Unfortunately I wasn't measuring it with intent of checking the timing and/or comparing with the Vcc discharge rate.Also, per my statement(s) of this slow discharge being a problem, the more I thought about it, upon first installing the new IC, I powered the unit without the VFD. The chip didn't blow thus possibly eliminating the power down sequence being an issue (unless it powers down differently without the VFD connected due to a different load). Maybe the VFD truly has a short, but still remain baffled why it would work fine until power is turned off and back on.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2024, 07:29:59 pm
content: Rail sequencing is complicated. I was interested in the rail sequencing with a good IC, not with an overloaded DC-DC converter. So we don't know what the 38V rail normally does. The 38V rail cap C129 is huge.Where does the 5V for the HV518 come from? There is a DPAK linear regulator but what provides the input?If Q12 is shorted then SW+5V could stay up too long keeping the 38V rail up after the 5V rail is down, on power down.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2024, 01:06:34 am
content: QuoteYou're absolutely correct and wish I had taken such a capture. The scope captures with the "blown" IC was for general reference.QuoteAnother good piece of advice. Keep in mind though, this unit worked fine with the original IC (except segments were in correct) and seems to work fine with a new IC providing I don't turn off power. Not to say something didn't get damaged during my repairing.QuoteI'm not quite sure the schematic makes sense to me. The front panel schematic (page 4) shows 5V into a LM317 and 5V out; that's obviously wrong. Page 53, pin 10, of the ribbon cable, shows Vcc and I believe this is the Vcc to the HV518.If I remember correctly, 5V net name gets converted to Vcc somewhere.Maybe I'm wrong and it's SW+5V goes through Q12 and is named Vcc. Edit: also I see there is a "power up" reset on page 21.Maybe I'm wrong, and due to being uncertain about some things, I try to add as much detail in my replies to reduce any confusion.Tomorrow, or possibly Friday, I'll remove the VFD and perform tests. I'm thinking of soldering twelve momentary push button switches with 10k resistors on a perf board to reduce constantly fiddling with clips on the leads of the VFD. Also, it will reduce time because I can power one segment, push each of the switches, and see the same segment on each digit before moving onto the next segment.Earlier I was thinking ahead and wondering how I could perform testing on the IC without soldering it back onto the board. I thought about soldering the IC socket to a perf board, running jumper wires from the ribbon cable for the data line and other essential signals, but then I'm stuck wiring all the segments and G lines manually.The advantage is I can blow IC chips without the need to solder, still a $8 loss each time, but better than soldering.The only other thought was to layout a PCB with sockets for the VFD pins (or hope the pins make a connection on unsoldered holes). I'd still need to layout a PCB, cost, and wait for it to arrive.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2024, 02:52:05 am
content: "Agilent 53131A Universal Counter Component Level Information" 5989-6307EN Feb. 2007pdfdoes list the Supertex HV518PJ for U2, same p/n 1820-5330 as the TI SN75518FN. I say the IC is a drop-in replacement but we'd need to compare an old (75518) schematic to see if changes were made. Only the 53131/132 use that DC-DC converter.I can only find that C129 is way too big, the hold-time of that 38V rail is large and the display likely gets blanked fast on power-down, which decreases the current drain and lengthens the ramp down.You have be careful C129 470uF 63V (on the main board) is totally discharged before plugging in the ribbon cable or it will zap the IC. That would kill it.The schematic shows U7 LM317 jumpered IN-OUT, front panel board +5V coming in from J1-10, J1-20. Back to J6-10, J6-20 and a ferrite bead to SW+5V. So it's the same rail as the DC-DC converter power. The 38V will lag on power-on but any possible problem is power-off, it stays up too long.The one VFDSDIN data line from main board U19 is powered from VCC (before the SW+5V switch) but I can't see that causing 518 latchup.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2024, 02:59:36 am
content: QuoteI completely missed the jumper. All I saw was the LM317 and +5V. Think I may have just lost some credibility on hereQuoteWow, you really managed to follow this well. I hate following drawings in PDF format because after jumping to another page, I forget what the other page(s) looked like. I tried printing, but for whatever reason, it printed very light; else I would have considered having them printed on C size paper at Staples.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2024, 03:01:38 am
content: I looked again (smallest schematic dot ever) and C129 should discharge to 6V with the zener VR2 and R29 31k6 load.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2024, 02:41:43 am
content: Earlier I removed The VFD, and, while at it, removed the IC since it's bad.Unfortunately the IC pads don't look like they have another de-solder attempt. One pad lifted, but thankfully it's an unused pin. A few other pads appear to be on the edge of lifting or have an extremely minor bow.Ironically I also have one new IC remaining (although I don't have any objections to ordering more).This weekend I'll piece together momentary push-button switches (twelve - one for each G line), resistors, etc... and begin testing the VFD. Also, I'll measure the current draw on each SEG line and filament. Maybe I'll grab a second meter and also measure the current on the G lines too.I'll update once I get more data.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2024, 02:49:01 pm
content: Yesterday I performed the bench testing.Attached are the results. I had 64ohm 2W resistors, so I used four in parallel to make it 16ohms and 7V on the power supply gave the filament voltage 5V (approx. 132mA).Also, I used 27V on the SEG lines rather than 30V (figured it's best to use lower and need to increase rather than go too high - but 27V seemed plenty).From what I can tell, everything lit and nothing is shorted. SEG P and SEG Q doesn't light anything until it gets to G12. I don't see anything else that needs to be lit, so I believe SEG P and SEG Q is normal.I'm working on a drawing to show which SEG lines are associated with lighting each segment.Basically for the figure 8 pattern, A-F goes clockwise with A being the top horizontal segment and G and H are the middle two horizontal lines with G being the left middle and H being the right middle.The middle stuff is:I - Vertical top middleJ - Vertical bottom middleK - Diagonal top rightM - Diagonal bottom rightN - Diagonal bottom leftL - Diagonal top leftThe rest of the segments (Ch1, Freq, etc...) are listed in my spreadsheet.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2024, 09:25:17 pm
content: 132mA filament current is only just a little higher then DC-DC spec of 120mA but it'll be fine for a quick test.Also good to see the segment currents are <<1mA using a 10K current limiting resistor.Q1:Are the currents in the table the sum of both Gn and SEG_m currents? Or just the segment current alone? See attached; ie. A1+A2 or just A1?Q2:If it's just A1, are the A2 currents similarly <<1mA using a 10K current limiting resistor? Don't bother with a detailed table of every combination. Just report back the largest draw.Q3:If the Gn and SEG_m currents are <<1mA, change the grid and segment current limiting resistors from 10K to 1K and confirm that the Gn and SEG_m currents are now <<25mA. If any Gn or SEG_m current >25mA that's going to burn-out the HV518 driver.Q4:If the Gn and SEG_m currents are <<20mA (using 1K resistors) then switch to 100R for the grid and segment resistors and report the largest current drawn (from Gn (A2) and SEG_m (A1)). The object here is to sneak-up on the 25mA limit. If we go over, then the display is bad because a good one will never demand more than that from a driver output pin. Normally, there is no resistor in series with a driver output.If the Gn and SEG_m currents are <25mA using the 100R series resistors, then finally remove the grid and segment resistors completely (each connected directly to the +27VDC supply).Q5:What's the largest current drawn from Gn (A2) and SEG_m (A1)?

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2024, 11:25:18 pm
content: I will set aside time sometime this week to perform the measurements you're asking. Unfortunately it may not be until late in the week or maybe the weekend.The numbers I provided were the SEG current only. Gx was connected directly to 10k resistors (I'd clip lead the 27V to each resistor) without a current meter - I didn't have a spare current meter handy.Attached is the 38V and 5V (38V was taken from a via next to E4 and 5V from pin 10 on the ribbon cable on the main PCB side).Also, this is without the VFD installed and the VFD IC removed. Per what I remember seeing when the display was working with the new IC (until I turned off power and turned on power only to find out the IC blew), the +38V discharges slowly.The scope capture shows after 12s the voltage is still 10V while Vcc has long since turned off.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2024, 01:57:49 am
content: I pieced together the segment locations (see attached) that I noted while bench testing the VFD.Maybe this is applicable to other VFDs, but thought to piece this together for anyone interested.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2024, 01:24:34 pm
content: QuoteSince I don't quite understand how the VFD works (although I've watched videos), I wanted some clarification: Do I need to measure all the Gn lines for every SEG combination (i.e. SEG-A with G1>G12, SEG-B with G1>G12, etc...), or can I just power a single SEG line, measure all twelve G lines, and those numbers will be the same for all SEG lines?Not sure what I have for resistors, but maybe I'll use a decade (resistor?) box. If I remember correctly, they are 2W resistors, so that may make things easier.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2024, 07:20:38 pm
content: The intent is to confirm that at NO TIME does any Gn x SEG_m combination, that EITHER current (A1 or A2) draw is >25mA.First using a pair of 10K, then a pair of 1K, then a pair of 100R resistors, then no series resistors.1/2 watts should be fine given the brief on-time to check currents.So, I envision two ammeters. One lead from each ammeter starts from the +27V supply. Then the other lead (with series resistor)... first on G1, second ammeter lead (with series resistor) on SEG_A, then move second to SEG_B, .... SEG_P, SEG_DP1, SEG_DP2, SEG_COM. Each time lookup up briefly to check if the Gn or the SEG_m currents exceed 25mA. Don't bother documenting each reading; just note if it comes close to 25mA.Then switch first ammeter lead to G2, second on SEG_A....SEG_COM. Then switch first ammeter lead to G3, etc.It should just be a couple of seconds each lookup at the ammeters to see.I don't anticipate that the grid current will change much with each different segment lit. I just want to be sure.If you find that as you try every combination with 1K then every combo with 100R, and you're seeing >25mA currents then stop there; don't bother to go lower since the display is FUBAR.If you only have one ammeter, then you'll have to do every combination of Gn x SEG_m twice for every series resistor combo; once with the ammeter monitoring the A1 current then monitoring the A2 current for 10K, then again for 1K, etc.I don't also want to rush going from 10K series resistance directly to no resistor because it might zap something inside. Although, if any A1 or A2 current >25mA that pretty much guarantees that the display is a driver chip killer so it'll be useless anyway.Again, we're just ruling out that the display will never draw >25mA from any A1 or A2 current when no resistor is in series.-------VFDs are low-voltage vacuum tubes.You must keep the filament (heater) constantly lit by supplying the recommended voltage that does not allow it to exceed its max. current.Then also supply a positive voltage (with respect to the filament) for the grid AND segment (anode). Higher grid or segment voltages will cause more electrons from the filament to strike the phosphor on the anode and cause it to get brighter.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2024, 01:12:31 am
content: I have enough multimeters, so I'll monitor both, but, since I'm at it, I'll use a third to keep an eye on filament current.Ironically, I actually performed the measurements opposite of your suggestion. I took a perf board, soldered twelve 20k resistors on it, and then soldered a 20k across each individual one to get the 10k (I had a large amount of 20k resistors so I used them). After I put a clip on a SEG line (looking at my spreadsheet, you can probably tell the order I went - left to right on both rows), and touched each G line resistor with a clip lead.I tried thinking of the most efficient method to make it go faster and to reduce the amount of times the VFD gets touched. This way I was only touching the VFD twenty times not including connecting all the G lines initially.On a side note, I realized I had 82ohm resistors for the filament and not 64ohm like I originally stated, and I had five in parallel making it (as it was measured) 16.1ohms. To eliminate the chances of a resistor disconnecting and causing inrush current issues, I also soldered the resistor leads.Also, I checked earlier, the decade boxes (that's the name I'm familiar with, but they are also called substitute boxes and resistor boxes) are 1/2W resistors - thought I had the -2W version originally. Either way, 1/2W should be more than enough. At one time I had to replace some of the resistors (they were open the day I acquired them), so even if they go up in smoke, I should have some spares.Unfortunately I didn't expect the need to perform more measurements, so I disconnected everything. Earlier I took some time to gather everything, but most likely I can't commit myself to testing until late this week or the weekend.Edit: did you (or anyone) look at the scope capture of the +38V taking >12s to drop? Seems odd it should take that long, almost like the zener is open.Thinking ahead (as I did previously), I'm wondering if it's worth laying out a PCB. Since the HV518 is fed by six voltage/data lines, maybe if the VFD is found to be fine (i.e. no shorts), rather than risk damaging the PCB by soldering more HV518s, a breakout board with an IC socket would be safer.I can jumper the six lines to the breakout board and either power the filament separately, or jumper those two lines too. Also, I could use pin sockets (whatever they are called) to fit the VFD in rather than solder. The issue would be the cost for a PCB, and, each time an IC blows, it's $8 down the drain.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2024, 06:32:11 am
content: For the current tests you don't really need to solder the VFD leads; just need to touch Gn and SEG_m with resistors on crock clips. But VFD leads are robust and can take re-soldering many times. Just make sure the leads don't move (ie mounted on a perfboard) and don't fatigue at the glass interface.See attached for a SPI-VFD driver I made a couple of days ago (2*74HC595+2*ULN2003+14*10K pullups, 2.8Vrms add-on secondary filament winding+16VDC "air wired" power supply). Note the VFD taped to a foam block and strip that constrains lead movement. You can do similarly using a 0.1" thru-hole 44-PLCC socket, mounting the VFD on perfboard, and temporarily soldering leads for the SPI+DCpower+FILpower from J1. Ultimately, it would be nice if you can manage to mount machined sockets for the VFD pins and a low-profile PLCC socket on the display board.Yeah, I saw that it took >12s to drop. But that was without any VFD attached so no load but the zener and a 31K resistor.As the +5V input to DC-DC dies down, the filament is still warm and the last grid and segments that where on should still draw a few mA which should discharge the 470uF cap faster than 12s. But how fast? I dunno.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2024, 03:13:17 pm
content: QuoteThat same slow discharge rate I'm almost certain I also saw with the VFD installed and the new-new VFD Driver IC.After installing the second new IC, I clipped onto the +38V and Vcc on two separate channels (this is why I had and still have fly leads soldered to both points). Not thinking about needing to measure discharge rate, I just looked at the voltage (probably at a fast rate) and thought the slow discharging +38V was odd after powering off the unit.Afterwards I turned on power again and saw the +38V was now approx. +12V along with nothing on the VFD.So don't quote me, but I'm 99% sure that slow discharge was also with the VFD installed. Also note a previous scope capture where it shows the slow discharge rate but with the blown HV518; it starts at +12V because the chip was blown, but shows the VFD didn't help the discharge rate because it was still slow.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2024, 01:08:28 am
content: Wanted to let anyone following this that I haven't had a chance to perform follow up measurements.I think Thursday night I began setting up, but I haven't had time for anything more. Possibly I'll have time tomorrow.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2024, 03:59:00 am
content: Earlier I performed tests with 10k resistors; this time noting the current on the G lines.Although noting all the measurements wasn't asked, thought it would make things easier to have all of them. Entering all the G line currents did get a bit tedious and decided to take the SEG measurements from my previous test due to them being very close.Also note that all the filament currents are the same in my spreadsheet. They varied very little and I gave up taking notes for each measurement. I noticed it would start at maybe 117mA while switching G lines (i.e. nothing lit) and then drop to about 116.5mA when the G line was connected (i.e. a segment was lit).I know and understand the trick is to sneak up on 25mA, but is it worth trying to jump from 10k to 100ohms (or 100R as it seems to be used on here) to save steps or is it too risky?

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2024, 04:22:27 am
content: 1kΩ is the lowest I would go to work with the tube. Operated as a triode, heater to screen-grid current limit is that I find.I don't see you checking for shorts between "G-lines" (as you call the screen grid)? You've checked between segments I think.Another check for shorted elements is to energize one segment and see if any others will light. Same for the grids, I tie a bunch of segments together high and energize each grid one at a time, looking for drama. I was staying out of the thread so you can work with pqass, haven't followed all the tests.Lexicon reverb common problem is the DC-DC converter loses regulation and goes too high in output voltage and blows the VFD driver IC.Here, the HV518PJ is good to 90V so not the problem but I mention it as another VFD-related issue I have seen.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2024, 04:58:03 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on May 28, 2024, 03:59:00 am117mA filament current is good to see given that it's just under/at what the DC-DC filament output can provide.Given how low the current readings are in your tables, it'll probably be fine to skip from 10K to 100R. I was just being overly cautious by trying with 1K too. Just only take a few seconds per measurement at most. If you're way beyond 25mA it may be pointless to continue to record all measurements.If the round of measurements are below 25mA using 100R, then try the final round of measurements with NO resistor (ie. directly attaching GRIDn and SEG-m to +27V). Again, If you're way beyond 25mA it may be pointless to continue to record all measurements.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2024, 05:29:38 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on May 28, 2024, 04:22:27 amEventually, bostonman will need to test all GRIDn and SEG-m pins directly attaching to the +27VDC source since that's what the driver does; no resistor in series. Measuring the current first through a 10K, then 100R was just being overly cautious. We talked about shorts as what to look for but really any excess current >25mA spells doom as that will destroy the driver chip. The algorithm involves connecting only one grid and one segment at a time, recording the current through each. But, he covers all combinations so if there was some leakage current to an adjacent grid or segment then it will be reflected in the recorded current measurement. Okay, it may still be <25mA with leakage currents, so as bostonman takes the measurements be on the lookout for multiple lit segments.Agreed, once a round of measurements are done with NO resistor in series (with one grid and one segment on), he can then do a final multiple segment on test by shorting all segment pins together (tying them to +27VDC) and measuring the current through each GRID-n (to +27VDC); total of 12 measurements.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2024, 07:15:48 pm
content: QuoteI'm sure you also don't want to give advice that may blow up the property of others, so it's good to take caution. My next test will be 100ohms on both SEG and G lines. This time around maybe I'll just skim along without noting the currents and make a mental note of the highest one.A few reasons why I took extra time to note the current values was to provide a clear chart on my measurements to help dissect any possible VFD issues, and for anyone else who comes across this thread who needs help. As most may know, it's extremely time consuming to stop and write each current value and then enter them into Excel.Also, my initial current measurements included looking at the display each time to check the associated segment was lit, and I didn't see any others that were lit simultaneously.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2024, 08:27:47 pm
content: Quote from: pqass on May 28, 2024, 05:29:38 amLast tests I did on a HP VFD, connecting a screen-grid to +HV through a 1k yielded unexpected results.The filament stopped glowing to the right of that gridThe display works fine. I'll see if I took pictures of that, had me stumped.I figure cathode current was being pulled. The tube can be run as a diode- so screen current must be limited and 1kΩ was low enough for me.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2024, 11:40:05 pm
content: Earlier I tested all the lines with 100ohms and I didn't see any G lines that exceeded around 0.5mA and none of the SEG lines exceeded 8mA; so I went all in with removing the series resistors.The final tests without resistors was basically the same (I expected slightly higher current). Also, I set the power supply current limit to 20mA (although I don't know the accuracy of the over current protection), but, obviously the power supply never went into current limit.The only anomalies were some SEG lines had either varying current (on the order of 0.2mA), or the G12 lines on a few segments began around 5-6mA, but kept climbing. Eventually it rose to approximately 8mA (hence where I got the maximum current) and stopped.Shall I plan to measure for shorts between G and SEG lines too?

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2024, 12:50:14 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on May 28, 2024, 08:27:47 pmFirst of all, VFD filaments shouldn't be seen glowing (red) at all. It could be related to using too much voltage and/or using DC as a filament voltage vs AC which is normally used. DC produces a voltage gradient across long displays that manifests as dimmer segments on one side vs the other. AC gives a more uniform brightness. See "5.4 DC Filament Drive"here.I'm not a vacuum tube guy; only have a general understanding.But "cathode current was being pulled" doesn't make sense to me. Here's my reasoning...the cathode heating loop doesn't change; a given floating filament voltage over a constant filament resistance equals constant current. It provides a constant source of free electrons that a second voltage loop can push out of the filament (via FIL2 lead), across the vacuum, out of the grid/segment, back into the second voltage loop source. Any electrons from the second source replace the free electrons produced via heating.Without a resistor in the second loop, the current is determined by the voltage applied and the physical distance between filament and grid/segment (ie. tube physical characteristics).1Lowering the filament voltage produces less current in the filament (unchanged resistance), less free electrons, and therefore, less light at the segment phosphor.2Same if lowering the voltage between filament and grid/segment (second loop); results in dimmer phosphor.21:"Plate Voltage-Plate Current Characteristic" pages 13,14,152: my own experiments.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2024, 01:46:55 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on May 28, 2024, 11:40:05 pmThat's good news. I didn't know you had a lab supply otherwise we could have done this without resistors from the beginning.Given that you tried all combinations of GRIDn and SEG-m (one grid and one segment on, without any resistors) and none of them tripped the 20mA current limit, you should raise the DC voltage from +27V to +38V (keeping the same filament arrangement of 5VDC, 117mA). You should see the maximum current on any one grid or segment increase a bit more but should never go over 25mA.Then one final test is to attach all (or at least most) segments to +38VDC (using a bare wire weaving around each of the top display leads). Then measure each GRIDn current (not necessary to measure the total SEG-m current as that would be n*SEG-m or >>25mA). Again, I wouldn't expect a larger individual grid current even though multiple segments are lit.If you get this far, and at no point 25mA was exceeded, and only one segment was ever lit (non-withstanding the last multi-segment test), then I'd say the display is good. The driver failure has to be due to some other factor; not an over current on any one output. We're back to the Vpp voltage lingering longer than Vdd.Quote from: bostonman on May 28, 2024, 11:40:05 pmIf you run a test where the filament is energized (5VDC, 117mA) and leave all segments unconnected, then iterate connecting only a GRIDn to +38VDC, you should NOT expect to see any segments lit. If you do, then you can conclude a segment is shorted to a grid somewhere.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2024, 03:29:49 pm
content: Yes, I have a lab power supply, actually a few. Some are linear (the one I'm using for this test) and some are switching).The one I used is three channels with one being dedicated to 5V. I'm uncertain, but believe none of my power supplies go over 32V unless I use the series mode; which means my filament voltage that is currently 6V (approx. 5V at the pin - after the series resistor) will now be 4V at the pin (assuming a linear drop) unless I hook up a second power supply.Just to confirm the next (three) steps (not using any series resistors):Raise the voltage to 38V on both SEG and GRID, and then go pin-to-pin again meaning, SEGa and G1-G12, SEGb and G1-G12, etc...?Connect all SEG lines together with 38V, connect 38V to G1, measure current through G1, then connect G2, measure current, etc...Disconnect all SEG lines (i.e. leave open) and connect G1-G12 individually looking to see if the display has anything litObviously I will conduct these tests, but, before I sacrifice cutting fly leads and/or anything else meaning messing up my setup to do these tests, do you think any other tests will be necessary to prove the VFD is good?Also, what plan can I prepare for should the VFD show it's fine (it almost seems at this point a safe bet is we can rule out the VFD - but I will still conduct the tests)?Soldering another chip onto the display board is basically not an option as the pads don't look like they can handle another removal. The sockets I purchased should fit, however, I haven't looked to see if the IC sits above the socket when inserted (I will install a blown IC into the socket and see if it fits flush, below, or above).If the IC sits above the socket, then using a socket isn't an option, but, also, the socket will probably touch the back of the VFD regardless which will not provide any heat dissipation for the IC (assuming the IC sits below the socket).The only other option I can thnk of is to make a PCB, have it built at a board house, jumper wire from the four or five leads that come in from the ribbon cable, install the IC socket, sockets for the VFD (rather than solder), etc...It's a costly experiment, and the result will be blowing IC chips.The only thing I haven't checked is whether maybe the zener diode is open on the DC/DC. A reason must exist for the 38V to drop so slowly, but whether that can damage the VFD driver IC is another story.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2024, 08:13:37 pm
content: QuoteWell, you could still use the 5V supply for the filament since we know the characteristics of that circuit; no chance of it going into current-limiting mode. Just put a 1.5V AA cell in series with 5V supply to raise its max output (before the 16R series resistor) then adjust the voltage knob so that you maintain 5V (@117mA) between the FIL1, FIL2 pins as before.Then you can use the other two supplies in series to dial in +38V (with 25mA current-limit) for the FIL2-grid/segment circuit.QuoteYes.Confirming that no combination consumes more than 25mA in a grid or segment.QuoteYes.I figure you could use a bare stranded wire weaving around the top leads of the display (all segments but two), their elasticity keeping each segment touching the bare wire. Again, confirming that no grid current exceeds the 25mA limit.QuoteYes.Which confirms that there isn't a segment-grid short if nothing is lit.QuoteI'm not sure of your current setup but can you leave the other ends of the fly leads (if they're soldered to the display) open before you attempt the multi-segment lit test?The filament circuit was tested at its rated spec. You've confirmed the current in each individual grid and segment. And you will confirm that the grid current doesn't exceed 25mA when most/all the segments are lit. I'm not sure what else we can test the display for.QuoteSo far the VFD is looking good. I'm not sure what comes next.The DC-DC, the zeners and caps in the Vpp supply were chosen with the HV518 in mind. The designers would have known the power up/down requirement of the driver chip. I'd be second-guessing the designers if we changed the large 470uF C129 cap to something like 47uF or add a larger 10K resistor (vs relying on the existing 31K+zener) across that C129 cap to force a faster power down of Vpp. It's worth trying though. I hate that it costs you a chip every attempt. A smaller C129 may result in a slight flicker in the display and a 10K (or lower value) across C129 will add to the max 38mA provided by the DC-DC which may starve the segment/grid needs.QuoteI figured the PLCC socket plus VFD machined sockets would maintain the same distance between top of the driver chip and the underneath the VFD; just bringing the front of the VFD 1mm closer to the enclosure. But if the traces are in that bad a shape, then yeah, make a small board to hold the PLCC socket then tack short wires to the VFD pins and J1 pins on the backside of the display PCB.QuoteI thought you'd confirmed that the DC/DC was outputting the correct voltage earlier; that it produced +38VDC between J1 pin 21 and pin 23 (DCOM, GND)? However, I don't recall anything about VR2 cathode; the center-tap of the filament winding. It should be +6.2V above GND. If VR2 was open then nothing would be lit since the center-tap of the filament would be at +38V. If VR2 was shorted there'd be a gradient or poorly lit/off segments. You can confirm this now with the driver IC and display currently removed. I wouldn't try to fix the DC/DC and just replace it.One more thing... wondering if the HV518 could be counterfeit. Are you buying them from a reputable source?

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 12:55:04 am
content: QuoteIt's a dedicated 5V without any adjustment. Maybe I'll setup a second power supply and tie the grounds together so I can keep the 6V and have the 38V for the G and SEG lines.QuoteI'm not in the habit of burning money, but it's in the name of engineering/science, it may benefit others who come across this post, and, most importantly, I can't let this thing get the best of me.I'd need to review my previous posts, but believe I confirmed the 38V (in fact, I posted scope pictures showing the SEG and/or G lines - I'm calling them G lines because the schematic shows them as Gx) with the original IC. This whole issue of blowing the IC began after replacing the IC. The original issue (I know most of you probably know, but better to reiterate to be safe) was digits four and five (?) sometimes not displaying correctly, multiple periods (although maybe they were commas, so don't put much effort into thinking about that), and the lower right vertical segment on the 12th digit (most right) was always on.The counter itself worked fine and believe I left it on overnight at least once to get it warm so I could calibrate it; or use it to calibrate a generator both referenced to a Cesium standard.I'll plan to conduct the final tests on the VFD. The current setup is a bit wonky. I'm using (I don't recall the name of them - maybe header pin adapters) pin sockets with wires. For the most part, I have wires everywhere, a situation I hate working in because that's when accidents happen, but I keep things separated and don't rush. Ideally I'd like to finalize all the tests before dismantling the setup. Although I have no issues reassembling it, I'd rather not.In any case, counterfeit chips is always a possibility. I placed one of the bad ICs in a socket and it sat slightly above the socket, however, the pins have solder on them, so it may not have been seated well. Regardless, I think the VFD would sit on top of the socket if I use a socket on the Display Board (this will have to be a bridge I'll cross when I get to it).I have pictures of the new IC and the Digikey bag that I'll upload in a moment. Without deviating to dig through the notes and schematics, is the original IC on the schematic a 518? I know a 518 was purchased because it was a valid "replacement" for the part number listed either on the IC and/or the schematic (or maybe the BOM).Maybe the issue is compatibility?Update: also, just for reference, the IC socket I purchased is: 8444-21A1-RK-TP (these have tiny plastic alignment pins on the bottom that I didn't realize and cut off so they sit flush on the board).

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 01:53:50 am
content: Never mind what I said about the 1.5V AA cell on top of the 5V supply. We know the filament circuit will be fine with 5V as it will draw 117mA so you should be able to just directly connect the fixed 5V supply across FIL1,FIL2 VFD pins (no 16R resistor in-series needed). You can confirm with an ammeter but I'm sure it will be fine. I don't think you have to worry about in-rush current.If it came from DigiKey then I fully expect the part to be genuine but...technically (the best kind of correct), the circuit is designed with the SN75518 in mind. Looking at thespecs for that, I see it has a max Vcc1 logic supply of 15V (not 5V) and max Vcc2 (what I've called Vpp) of 60V. There is no mention of a power up/down sequence for Vpp. It has a PNP vs PMOS on the output. I'm thinking it's a better part; and the HV518 doesn't quite work in this design.So if you're not footprint constrained and go with a daughter-PCB, you can use the 40 pin DIP version of the SN75518 which are available on eBay (couldn't find the PLCC version). Yes you risk a counterfeit, but it'll likely work and get you out of this jam. I bought one from eBay and it works fine.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 02:18:13 am
content: Believe I've completed all the tests.When leaving all the SEG lines disconnected (i.e. open), I touched each G line individually with 37V DC and nothing turned on.In order to tie all the SEG lines together, I used a strand of wire, however, it seems the connections weren't solid enough because I couldn't get all the segments lit. I rewound it three times and had intermittent results where segments would sometimes turn on and off. After I tried copper tape which appeared to work much better.None of the currents went beyond around 0.5mA (without doing the math, I expected a bit higher since all twelve segments are on simultaneously).The only anomaly I saw that was slightly concerning was the far right digit segments and part of 'u' and MHz was faintly lit.I noticed as I ran my fingers around the G lines, I could get all twelve digits to light individually as I passed my finger across them. My guess is the G lines/segments are picking up capacitance, however, I could get the far right digit to turn off momentarily as I tinkered with the copper tape.Maybe this is an actual problem, but due to being able to have the far right segments almost turn off, sometimes different segments in that digit would be off, then on, and sometimes fully off, I sense it's just due to the copper tape and/or weak connections.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 02:26:04 am
content: QuoteI'd like to point out that when the new IC blew the first time, I removed it, soldered a new one, and, before I re-soldered the VFD, turned on/off the unit to measure whether the 38V was still 12V or back to 38V without the IC blowing.It wasn't until I connected the VFD that the second IC blew (probably the same case as the first time).The 38V was solid at around 40V (I think or maybe 42), the display worked, the DC/DC was cool, turned off the unit, waited about five-seconds, turned on the unit, no display, and the 38V was down to 12V again with the DC/DC getting warm.Unless someone thinks a problem exists with the VFD due to my previous testing update, I think my next step is to measure around the DC/DC, the zener, etc...If the conclusion is to make a daughter board to house a 40 pin DIP, I guess it will be lots of work, but the only solution. Maybe it would be a good idea to include the 44pin version too for possible future needs and/or conduct more tests that cause the IC to blow.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 02:59:16 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on May 31, 2024, 02:18:13 amGood. No shorts from grids to segments.QuoteIts okay that it was a bit flaky. This test was to compare the grid current where most segments were lit to the previous test where just one segment was lit. So what was the current on the grid? Was it >25mA?

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 03:42:19 am
content: QuoteI only saw about 0.5mA on the SEG current and about the same on the G line current.I was looking more at the digits to see if others lit and less on the current, but the current was very low the times I looked which didn't make sense. With a 10k series resistor the G lines were 1.5mA (doing a quick visual average) and the SEG lines were 0.15mA (also a quick visual average).If all twelve segments were lit, and assuming 0.15mA per segment, that would be 1.8mA total; this would also be with a 10k resistor and this last test didn't have a series resistor.Maybe since I used 5V for the filament versus 6V, this caused less current on SEG and G lines?Update: due to lower filament voltage, the current was approx. 97mA.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 04:39:13 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on May 31, 2024, 02:26:04 amI'd expect the DC-DC to be at its highest output voltage without a load attached given there's probably an inductor inside. But your experience does hint that the failure was output current related. But so far, the display tests clearly shows no grid or segment draws >25mA so the driver should not have failed for that reason alone. Maybe the issue occurs when combined with the lingering Vpp after Vdd goes to 0V.QuoteIf either VR1 and VR2 zeners were open, you wouldn't have seen any display output at all. If either were shorted, you would see some dim segments (that should be off), gradient, or slightly brighter segments (VR1 shorted) that would have drawn more grid/segment current (14% more).But you can test this now while the VFD and driver have been removed. The DC/DC output is rated for 38mA. Connect a 1K resistor (38V/0.038A=1K) between J1 pins 21 (+38V) and 23 (GND) and confirm that it can maintain the 38V.QuoteI don't think it would be a lot of work to create a functional solution. I would just use a 40x7 hole perf-board, mount two 40 pin rows of machined sockets on the long edges, solder fly wires through the inside holes next to the sockets, coming out via the short edges of the perf-board, with wires sandwiched between the perf-board and the IC above. With the perf-board centered and (double-sided) taped to the back of the display board and between the VFD pins, the 20 wires (or so) from each short side are tacked to the VFD pins and J1 pins.For a better job, you could make a custom PCB that would be the same dimensions as the VFD pins. You would then solder 10mm solid wire up from the VFD pins and select J1 pins into corresponding sockets from underside of the daughter PCB just like an Arduino shield.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 05:15:40 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on May 31, 2024, 03:42:19 amYes, less filament current means less available electrons so less current in the FIL2-grid/segment circuit (for the same voltage).20mA less (from 117mA to 97mA) filament current isn't much of a difference. I'm not sure which is the correct current to run the filament with but it's in the ballpark. What's important was the 6V+16R resistor source is probably the top-end and you never came close to the 25mA current limit of the driver output.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 01:00:06 pm
content: I'll double check the current values again with all the SEG pins shorted before I dismantle my setup.Also, test the DC/DC with a resistor load. Looks like about 1.5W (38mA ^2 x 1k) and luckily (according to my list of resistors) I have should have 200ohm 0.5W (five in series), or 500ohm 200W (two in series).QuoteA PCB with pin spacing to match the VFD was something I gave thought to sometime ago and agree, I think it would be much neater. Obviously I'll have to dig deeper once the decision is made to take that route.Not sure if I mentioned this, but the irony is that I didn't have any intension of working on this counter. Don't remember what I was working on, but dragged out this counter to use. When I was reminded of the digits being off, I thought maybe it was something simple like a loose connection/connector. Before long, everything else got tossed aside and this became the main project.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2024, 12:59:18 am
content: I performed the measurements again. This time I had all the G pins open rather than connected to resistor leads on the perf board (I was using the resistor leads to clip onto - initially I was going through the 10k resistors to limit the current) and none of the segments were ghosting; so it must been due to capacitance or whatever that I saw previously (my previous post).The highest current draw I saw was about 0.8mA on the G lines and 0.5mA on the SEG lines. Unfortunately the copper tape wasn’t making full contact all the time, but I think it was solid enough since I saw all segments lit at short intervals.Probably safe to say at this point the VFD is good.Next step is to measure the DC/DC with a resistor load and then I guess plan on a daughter board.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2024, 01:55:56 am
content: I placed two 500ohm (200W) resistors in series (overkill on the wattage, but it was the only higher wattage resistors I had) with the 38V to ground.Attached are scope captures with the file names named accordingly.From what I could tell, the 38V held strong under a load. The 5V into U30 is a bit noisy, but probably normal).Also note, on some of the scope captures such as VRx, the "zero" volt line is two divisions from the bottom, but, when the power is off, the voltage sits approximately 6v above (the "zero" volt line is somewhat hard to see on the black background along with the trigger level being next to it).

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2024, 05:04:49 am
content: Yup, 38V is holding up at 38mA.And U30 pin 1 has about a 42kHz ripple of 1/2Vp-p. They could have used a 470uF for C62.The VR1 pin 1 never goes to zero because VR2 is off below 6V. So C129 cap just keeps it there without a load. Maybe it could get close to zero while the VFD filament cools down. It probably cools faster than the load consumes so it likely breaks the power-down rule in the HV518.The VR2 spikes to GND are also about 42kHz.I'm curious what the waveform looks like between FIL1 and FIL2 (U30 pin 4 and pin 6) with a 50R in between (5V @ 100mA).Attach probe channel 1 to U30 pin 4 and channel 2 to pin 6 with ground clips to GND.Bonus if you can generate a 3rd, math channel where it's channel 1 + channel 2.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2024, 12:53:57 am
content: Attached are two scope captures - files named accordingly.Not sure if I've done a 'math' function before, and certainly not with this scope (Agilent 54831M), so I'm uncertain whether it's correct.The phase seemed to move slightly because I kept seeing it jump, but the waveforms remained solid.Just to elaborate on the file names: the 38V was still loaded with 1k (two 500ohms in series) to ground, FL1 went into a 50ohm resistor, the other side of the resistor was connected to FL2. Technically it was two 23ohm resistor boxes in series to reduce wattage (two 25ohm settings were about 53ohms, so I used 23) and also a current meter. The filament current was about 97mA and held constant.Maybe due to the long le

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2024, 02:30:57 am
content: The waveforms aren't smooth sine waves but rather (slightly distorted) square waves; the filament won't care.As long as the FIL1 and FIL2 outputs (relative to GND) are inverted so when added average to 0V.The yellow math channel shows this flat avg voltage but it's raised to about 6V by the VR2 zener.I think the DC-DC (+38VDC and the +/-5V filament) outputs are fine as they can maintain their current spec. (38mA and 100mA, respectively).

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2024, 02:36:50 am
content: Time for a daughter board then for the other TH IC?I’ll start mentally working on it and then probably have a PCB made rather than a leaf board.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2024, 02:42:12 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on June 04, 2024, 02:36:50 amYou mean the SN75518? Yeah.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2024, 02:56:33 pm
content: QuoteYes, that one.I will probably incorporate a socket for both the 518 and SN75518 this way I can (hopefully) insert the SN75518 and see it works fine, remove it, insert the 518, and see if it blows.My PCB layout skills are basic, any suggestions on trace routing such as size or any "magic" designs I should incorporate to reduce noise?

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2024, 05:30:36 pm
content: From Reply#20: "Every ~976 us (~1024 Hz), there is a 32 bit word, with bits clocked at ~934 kHz."I don't think the outputs changing 1024 times per second is going to generate much noise or pose a concern for board layout.The SPI traces won't be very long; just up from J1 into the corners of the chip.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2024, 02:43:02 am
content: QuoteSN75518FN is the part number on the schematic (I assume you just summarized the number and they are the same).Any suggestions on which place to purchase from on eBay? I'm seeing $3.xx up to $2x.00, all from China and Hong Kong.I assume it's a coin flip, but figured I'd ask.Currently I have one 518 remaining, and three sockets. When I make the PCB (as mentioned), I'll incorporate a socket. I'll be able to see if the 7551s work, and, if the do, I'll perform one more test with the 518. I will blow, but it will be in the name of science.QuoteI could always just install the original chip and live with bad digits.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2024, 03:31:48 am
content: I bought just one "SN75518N" from a local (Canada) seller (now sold out). It looks new old stock; not a pull (splayed pins, no solder, no marks, not faded, clean). I think I paid CA$7 + CA$5 (shipping) about a year ago. I've confirmed that I does work driving a VFD. I don't have any experience with Chinese sellers as I don't want to deal with customs brokerage nor the wait.Using the original flawed chip would be a bit of a let down considering your effort.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2024, 01:11:39 pm
content: QuoteVery true, but felt maybe you and/or others felt a bit of responsibility for me going with a 518 and having these issues (assuming the 518 is the issue and not something else that developed into a failure). Obviously trying to fix this was all my doing, but, I was just stating at any point I could jump ship by returning my counter to the original (broken) state, so nothing would be lost.I agree, waiting the several weeks for a chip from China isn't fun. Maybe tonight or tomorrow I'll do a deeper search, but my quick eBay search showed China and Hong Kong only.A few years ago I purchased two used Agilent hybrid chips from China for my 54831 that had bad channels on 2 and 3, and so far they are working (although I fear leaving the scope on too long).

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2024, 01:46:30 pm
content: Your adventure has been surprising given that the HV518works as a replacement in the HP 34401 (notice pix)lead me to believe it would work for your case.But just checking the 34401 schematics... and it shows that FIL1,FIL2do notcome from a DC-DC, but instead from an isolated transformer winding. How about that! That sure does implicate the power-down rules of the chip.Thanks for taking one (or two) for the team.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2024, 02:47:11 pm
content: QuoteHahha this site and contributors have saved me more often than not. For the price of blowing up a few ICs and performing (and learning) to test the VFD, it's the least I can do.Those scope captures I've been posting have come from my Agilent 54831M that, if not for the assistance of people on here, would have remained a two-channel out of calibrated scope. So I absolutely don't mind "taking one or two" for the team.Technically I haven't taken anything for the team yet though. Maybe I blew up something in the unit causing the current issue and wasted the time of others. No telling unless I reinstall the original bad chip (which would be a waste) or designing the 5518 into the unit.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2024, 04:38:28 pm
content: The schematic lists an FN, but you purchased an N.I get far less results when I search for SN75518FN than SN75518N (the one you purchased).According to the datasheet, an 'FN' handles 1.7A and an 'N' handles 1.25W.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2024, 05:12:50 pm
content: Look at the TI datasheet, first page. N=40pin DIP package, FN=44pin PLCC packageYes, I purchased the DIP for one of my custom projects (not as a drop in replacement) so I had flexibility.That's all I found on eBay, anyway.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2024, 06:33:22 pm
content: Oh okay, I should have realized it. I was focused on thinking both N and FN were DIP.My attention was: new IC model 518 is the PLCC and old model is DIP; and both DIPs came in a N or FN option.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2024, 02:50:36 am
content: I bought six of these for $36https://www.ebay.com/itm/325686864607?epid=1718442701&itmmeta=01HZR9DBRFN0HEZH2TY8GH04JX&hash=item4bd4732adf:g:ISgAAOSwrwhkgmQ~&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4FfSigCHd%2BTuVaEiHXE3KyQWntr7hqnMIKSg%2FwznHO12HJJR0Qn7tAxoMFVzqWnRDp%2FkTSjs2fWfhEITunRwa5YDvekl0h8tAXzDDJqU024tCBm7YPYL4R9al7UGSn00R4OeBPXPjtPor%2BmgsMXdAHkELnkU5S9CKWcMkM26PSh80hHtk690RWQXfBgqY6y4EmdeYyt4b%2BFTtL2guDFE7GNfduuJOj7KJhENRB3%2F5Mz4MOR6QFsB8YPlQU%2BbdK5%2FQNRNP8yogNicZDDQ7WkVS%2BB91v51X1pWePSqbKyd0iPI%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6a8tYn-Yw

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 01:50:15 am
content: I'm still trying to make time for a daughter board, so this is why the thread hasn't been updated.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 01:34:52 am
content: I've completed the schematic (it's nothing spectacular) and the PCB (see attached).Rather than draw all the connections on the schematic, I used ports. Also, I may have wasted time creating a PCB with both ICs since ideally the surface mount replacement one can't be used since it keeps blowing, however, it opens the option for using the correct one should a need arise.The schematic has some issues. The IC pins aren't labeled input or outputs, and all the ports are facing one way. The PCB shows pin 1 on the VFD being at the wrong end.Unfortunately it took me a bit to re-familiarize myself with PCB layout along with creating components. Once I was knee deep, I just kept the errors as is.Earlier I ordered the PCBs (I'm waiting to see if the company finds any issues).

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 12:17:13 am
content: I wired my daughter board and installed the SN75518N IC.From what I can tell, the display works fine (it was a bench test and a functional). Also, I re-powered the unit four or five times without the IC blowing unlike the HV518.My board is designed to take either a PDIP or PLCC. In a previous message I stated if the PDIP SN75518 doesn't blow after re-powering, I'll try the HV518 (again) to confirm it isn't a compatible device to use.I'm reluctant to push things by removing the 75518 and installing the HV518, but, if others are interested in me confirming the HV518 shouldn't be used as a replacement, I'll gladly perform the experiment.I'll upload a few pictures in a bit, but wanted to provide an update on things.Update: I injected 1.234567890MHz into the counter.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 12:36:33 am
content: That looks very nice.I'm glad it worked out in the end.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 01:01:00 am
content: Thanks.The mechanical error is that I wanted the spot for the PLCC a bit more to the right so it sits between the two holes on the front panel board. Also, it really didn't need to be that big but wanted the ability to have both IC packages to be available.Ironically, the header pins fit in the VFD holes perfectly, so I got those dimensions correct, but they were getting soldered to the VFD pins once I soldered it back onto the board, so worst case I could bend them in place.The signal wires are all 24AWG and I used 20AWG for the 5v, 38v, and GND.This week I plan to check the power switch (it was sticking and maybe it needs to be replaced) and reflow the solder on the DC/DC since I had removed that at one point.After all that, I'll reassemble it and hope my board doesn't hit any obstacles. If it all fits, I'll upload the gerbers so others can have them if need be.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 01:35:40 am
content: I just noticed the top part of the '3' is diagonal in both digits. All the other digits have the correct segments, so I assume this is part of a fancier method of showing '3', but wanted to confirm this isn't an error.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 02:16:56 am
content: Apparently, you're the lucky owner of a ROM with the fancier font.But it looks like they reverted back.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 12:56:42 pm
content: Phew, my heart skipped a beat when I saw the diagonal for the '3'.After more thought, and in the name of science, I'll install my last HV518 and see if it blows. This way I can confirm the socket is connected correctly and verify the chip blows up.One odd thing I don't understand about this counter: I injected 1.2345...MHz and it decided to display 1,234,567.xxx Hz. Does a reason exist it displays it as Hz rather than place the decimal place in the beginning and display MHz?

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2024, 02:40:39 am
content: I'm very confused as the last brand new HV518 didn't blow; and will provide a summary of the steps that have occurred so far.* Original issue: segments in the 4th and 5th (?) digits along with one segment in the 12th display were incorrect* Un-soldered the original PLCC using hot air and cleaned the excess solder off the pads* Installed a brand new HV518 using a hand soldering iron* Powered unit, display worked (I didn't do a thorough test such as testing all the digits, just a basic test to see if it turned on), turned off power, turned on power, the display was blank, the DC/DC was getting extremely hot, and the +38V was (if I remember correctly) +13V* Un-soldered the newly installed HV518 using hot air and cleaned the excess solder off the pads* Installed a brand new HV518 using a hand soldering iron* Powered unit, display worked (I didn't do a thorough test such as testing all the digits, just a basic test to see if it turned on), turned off power, turned on power, the display was blank, the DC/DC was getting extremely hot, and the +38V was (if I remember correctly) +13V* Per the suggestion of users in this thread, performed several bench tests on the VFD (I will not list the tests as it will just be too long). All tests showed the VFD was good.* Designed a daughter board to accommodate SN75518 PDIP , soldered it to the back of the front panel board, installed a PDIP SN75518 into the socket, powered unit, the unit worked great, re-powered several times, and it worked every time* Removed the SN75518 from the PDIP socket, installed my last (brand new) HV518 into the PLCC socket, powered unit, and the display worked. As before, I expected the display to not work once I recycled power. I turned off power for about 30s, turned on, display worked (normally it wouldn't work). Recycled power several times either very quickly, sometimes left power off for a bit, etc.. and the display worked every time. I threw basically everything I could with recycling power and the display worked fine every time.The only thing this daughter board has that isn't on the front panel board is an additional 0.1uF capacitor on the 5V line (the schematic I uploaded previously shows a 0.01uf). Besides this capacitor, the board is bare bones with a PDIP and PLCC socket.I don't know why the PDIP isn't blowing now. My thoughts are that heat from the soldering iron when I was replacing it on the front panel board caused damage (but odd two chips would fail the same way) to the HV518 and why it kept blowing, two out of three brand new HV518s were faulty and I so happened to install the two bad ones, or the VFD had an issue that got resolved during bench testing. At the moment I don't have an answer as to what happened except it actually looks like an HV518 is a good replacement.On a side note: the only odd issue I experienced after installing the front panel PCB back into the plastic face was the buttons and LEDs weren't correct. i.e. I'd push 50ohms on channel 1 and the display would show menu options for channel 1 instead. I put a little pressure on the ribbon cable and that didn't seem to solve anything, I recycled power, re-seated the connector on the main PCB, etc... and then things seemed to start working normal. A little concerning as I hope it's not a break in the ribbon cable due to all the moving around it's been subjected to these last several weeks. If the ribbon cable is bad, that's a whole ordeal as I'll need to un-solder the daughter board I just installed.In any case, at the moment, the daughter board appears to fit fine, the display seems correct, holding my breath on the front panel buttons continuing to work correctly, I just ordered a replacement fan (the current one doesn't always start spinning at turn on), and will assemble the unit completely upon installing the new fan. After I'll calibrate the unit and, if the HV518 ever blows, replacing it with the PDIP will be fairly easy.Update: I uploaded a photo of the daughter board (and PDIP) installed in the front panel. Note: I accidentally added this picture to the previous message by accident, but deleted it.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2024, 03:21:29 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on July 30, 2024, 02:40:39 amWarning, the HV518 has a specific required power-up and power-down sequence order. If you do not follow it, you may blow up the IC or draw absurd current on the Vpp with excessive heat building up. You will need to read the data sheet, and, if you haven't already made accommodations to follow the instructions laid out, you might not be able to reliably use the HV518.If you do not follow the documented sequence and timing, the functionality and/or death will be random.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2024, 01:31:19 pm
content: Thanks for the reply.This isn't a new design, this chip blowing has been an ongoing issue if you read through the thread. The discussion of power on/off sequence has been mentioned also.Now suddenly it's no longer blowing even though it's in the same circuit.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2024, 01:43:41 am
content: I've done several re-power tests and the unit works fine every time. It remains a mystery why this IC failed when I soldered it onto the front panel PCB, but works fine now in a socket (keep in mind the display worked originally, just had some bad segments).From what I can tell, the unfortunate part is that the ribbon cable is flaky because the front panel buttons don't work correctly, and, if I wiggle the cable, the display kicks out. When the front panel doesn't work correctly, pushing buttons reveals a completely different function. An example would be 50ohm/high impedance goes through the menu for (I believe) selecting which channels to measure frequency (which is the button all the way to the left). Maybe the IC for this is failing too, but I haven't been able to manually duplicate the problem. It seems the problem occurs sporadically and then vanishes. Maybe it's when things are cold, I'll have to try it tomorrow after it's had all night to cool.Unfortunately I'd have to remove my daughter board along with trying to remove the front panel PCB from the face plate which is a pain if I want to replace the ribbon cable. At this point it's too risky to dismantle again, it's hard for me to leave it as a potential failure, but may need to bite the bullet and leave it.Maybe if time permits in the future I'll tackle replacing the ribbon cable.I've pieced together a package with the gerbers to make the daughter board along with dimensions of my board. I'm uncertain if this is the best thread to post it as the title doesn't direct anyone to find a replacement daughter board, so should I start a new thread; maybe in the 'repair' section? If anyone has a github account, maybe they can upload it for me.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2024, 10:54:35 pm
content: Guess I couldn't leave well enough alone.Today I tried removing the ribbon cable and thought I had enough room to lift the ribbon cable end under the VFD. After realizing the connector was hitting the VFD, I stopped.Long story short, I reassembled everything and it seems the work I did on the ribbon cable (I re-soldered all the pins and hoped the solder ran up into the internal area where the wires are pressed in and/or it burned off any film that was causing intermittent open connections).Unfortunately I saw segment C wasn't lighting and thought it was just a bad solder connection since I had to remove my "daughter" board. I measured the segment C pin on the VFD and it was clocking. After I realized I also lost segment M and N (and possibly P and Q which are the M and Hz - but I haven't confirmed this).I looked under the microscope and it looks like the glass is cracked on the VFD backside (right around where I was pushing up on the ribbon cable connector end), however, the display lights and all the digits work (except missing segments).Is it possible I cracked the glass but didn't break the vacuum since the display still works? At this point I think the VFD is garbage since the issue appears internal.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 02:17:57 am
content: I removed everything again and looked at the VFD under the microscope. Unfortunately the crack was real as a slight flick with the tweezers caused the section to break away.It looks like the crack happened at a solid point on the glass and didn't make it to the vacuum section.At this point I have a decision to make: give up and not have a frequency counter or buy a used VFD off eBay for $100By any chance, has anyone ever made a plug in replacement display such as a LCD? I'm wondering if anything exists that would accept all the inputs and can be programmed to display specific segments based on the inputs.

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 03:39:13 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on August 06, 2024, 02:17:57 amCan you get access to all the signals ? Maybe a Pi PICO could sniff the lines, if they are (or can become) 3v3 levels ?Years ago, we did a CPLD sniffer design that looked at the display interface link on a custom printer, and gave the customer remote information.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 03:01:25 pm
content: No need to sniff, the protocol has been documented and analternate display solutionhas been implemented.It's too nice of a counter to just abandon at this stage.Your choice is an ebay/aliexpress VFD replacement (likely slow, sketchy yet easy route to take)or an OLED/other display to fit into the same spot with the protocol converter described in the link above.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 07:08:14 pm
content: That alternate display looks cool, but, I have to admit, the VFD does fit the design well.Most likely I'm not willing to pull the trigger on altering the design to swap display types, so most likely I'll go with one from eBay or Aliexpress.I'm mad at myself for prying up on that ribbon cable connector. I was looking at the metal frame around the VFD and thought the distance was enough to lift the pins off the PCB and maybe solder the ribbon cable directly. I didn't give though to how far the VFD sits.Someone on eBay has the VFDs listed as new, but the picture shows a display with different stuff on the front. I've sent a picture of mine and waiting for a reply. Someone else on eBay has "used" ones; both are similar in price.I haven't looked on Aliexpress yet, but will.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2024, 03:32:34 am
content: Due to being stubborn and wanting to see this project through, I purchased a replacement VFD.The ones on Aliexpress had the getter (?) on the bottom and the pins were bent in an L shape, so I was reluctant to purchase them. A seller on eBay had one listed as "new", but the picture showed different stuff on the screen. After sending a picture of mine per their request, I got a reply "Hey Dear" can you send the part number.Due to such an odd reply, I purchased one listed as used. It's an entire front panel PCB, so it's plug n' play, however, the driver IC may fail in the future, so I'm thinking of removing the VFD.It's expected to arrive the end of the month.Meanwhile, I'll investigate the alternate display which looks pretty cool. If I crack this replacement VFD, it doesn't work, or fails in the future, I'll resort to the alternate display.Will this alternate display work while the VFD is also connected and working? I'm wondering if I can have dual display. Seems like it would work since it just needs the signal lines.

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2024, 03:47:39 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on August 09, 2024, 03:32:34 amThat's a standard generic Chinese Vendor greeting

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2024, 09:10:27 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on August 09, 2024, 03:32:34 amSince it just tees off the SPI lines, it should work concurrent with the VFD (just don't connect VFDSIN as that is already driven by the exiting SN75518).The project linked above aims to interpret the segment content (ie. turn segment combinations into ASCII chars) but you can probably just make it dumb (no MCU); just use 5 x 74HC595 + 18 x 330R + 2 x ULN2003 ('595s are good for 4mA per segment; or just use another 75518 which is good for 25mA but can't drive the common cathodes directly) and drive a 12 digit x 14-seg LED display. Maybe start with a 3 x quad displaylike a common cathode version of this onewith a (flex?) PCB overlay of SMD LEDS between digits (for the dots and comma), and a back-lit mask for the annunciator.Seethis ideaandthis one too. You might even cram it into the same space as the VFD.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2024, 01:40:02 pm
content: QuoteI dislike the node naming on the schematics. VFDSIN implies it's an input to the VFD driver, but it's actually an output.The links you provided are nice, but remember, this display also has other names displayed too such as the channel number, rise, MHz, etc...The alternate display solution with the Adriuno seems the most practical. Let me figure out whether I'll get this unit working with the replacement VFD. If so, I'll keep this alternate design on the side. If not, then it's off to use the alternate design (or maybe implement it and keep both should the VFD fail in the future).

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2024, 12:15:12 am
content: Looks like I finally got this fixed; and it fought me the whole way.The replacement VFD arrived, it was sold as an entire front panel PCB and could have been a "drop in" replacement quick fix. The display worked, but I feared the IC would fail over time. The replacement front panel PCB was in good shape and the ribbon cable (I assume) hadn't been flexed too much.The route I decided to take was: remove the VFD, remove the IC, solder jumper wires from the connector so I can connect my daughter board, reinstall the VFD, solder my daughter board onto the front panel PCB, solder the jumper wires to my daughter board.At this point the display worked except one G line wasn't soldered, so this had to be fixed. After I inserted the PCB into the front and noticed two LEDs weren't working.Being stubborn, I had to fix this, so I removed the PCB again front the front panel, removed two LEDs from my old PCB, soldered them onto the replacement front panel board, and then it worked.At least now in the future if the driver IC fails, I can just swap without any soldering (assuming the other IC that controls the LEDs doesn't fail too).Now it's fully assembled and I just need to adjust the calibration screw on the rear.The only odd thing the counter seems to do is not utilize the first digit or few few digits all the time. I'm sure a reason exists, but seems all twelve digits should be displayed.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 05:01:51 pm
content: I somewhat began creating an external display based off the Github link provided - just to have an alternate display if I ever need it.Although I haven't purchased the display, I know the parts to order, however, I'll begin installing a connector (already arrived) on the rear panel so I can connect/disconnect the external display.It's suggested to put resistors in series with the data lines (and maybe 5V too) to prevent shorting. Besides resistors, should I put TVs on all the data lines to ground to prevent ESD issues?

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 02:39:41 pm
content: The project recommends:"It is strongly recommended to protect the signals from the instrument, in case of an accidental short or similar. On the +5 volt feed, use BAT41, BAT42 or other low voltage drop diode, or at least a small fuse in the 100-200 mA range. On the signal wires, VFDSCLK, VFDSIN, VFDSOUT and VFDSEN, use a resistor in the range 1 kOhm to 3.3 kOhm or so."Since you only need to expose VFDSCLK, VFDSOUT, and VFDSEN, I'd buffer them each with two inverters in a 74LS|HC14 + 330R on each output. Or similar buffer chip: '04, '08, '244, '245, etc. I don't know what connector you'll be using but you could mount the buffer chip behind it (on a small perfboard, PCB) or in-line between the wires to the connector from the J1 (on the display board).See below for a partial schematic of how the VM COMPLETE output on my HP3478A is protected. Note the reversed protection diodes to +5V and GND. I can't advise on TVS diodes as I've never used them.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 02:15:37 am
content: I saw that note about protecting the outputs and considered a buffer (I thought more of an unity gain op-amp).I wasn't sure if a buffer or op-amp would affect rise/fall times causing errors.As for connectors, I'm using: 7282-6SG-300 and 6282-6PG-3DCThe connector was slightly larger than the available BNC hole(s) on the rear, so I ground the hole larger. My plan is to tap off the main PCB to shorten the distance and then make a cable that is long enough to have the display mounted on the front. If I'm going with buffers, then maybe I can just tap off the daughter board I made.Just wish I had thought of this when I made the daughter board, now I need to tap off the taped off board.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 04:56:31 am
content: The VFDSCLK speed is 1Mbps so I'd stick to TTL/CMOS buffers and not op amps.But for only 20in, I'm sure you'll be fine with just 330R series resistors; no buffers.Also, VFDSCLK, VFDSOUT, and VFDSEN originate from U16, U15, and U17, respectively.All are 74AC138 which multiplex 8 SPI devices via just 7 MCU pins (SCLK,MOSI,MISO,EN,A0,A1,A2).The 74AC logic family has +/-24mA maximum output drive current with 6ns propagation delay!

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 12:32:52 pm
content: Do you think TVS on all the signal lines is a nice added layer of protection or a waste?

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 12:55:08 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on September 27, 2024, 12:32:52 pmI can't advise as I've never used them. But we're dealing with a short distance and point-to-point connection (similar environment to GPIB). I don't think you'll be running the cable parallel to the mains or industrial machinery. Are you?You could use a shielded multi-conductor cable if you wish.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 01:54:16 pm
content: hahah no, it will not be next to anything high voltage, but was thinking more on the lines of ESD such as human hands touching the pins.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 07:02:34 pm
content: Duh! Of course.The HP parts list shows it's an ON Semi part. Itsays hereits VESD>2000V.Maybe just fast signal diodes+resistor as per my last attachment is enough (plus putting the female connector on the counter end, male on display end).

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 01:38:39 am
content: I haven't had a chance to work on installing the connector (or build a board with the buffer chips/resistors) but I want to confirm what I need for the display since Arduino boards are new to me.The Arduino can be a Nano providing it has ATMega328 for a micro. The display is a bit confusing, but believe three are listed as the suggested ones:HD44780SSD1306SSD1309The HD44780 looks like the best size, but do these displays also need a controller because it's listed as "compatible controller".Unless I'm wrong, I just need an Arduino Nano, download the code, install it (somewhat uncharted territory for me), and connect a HD4470 to it (including some minor rework to the Arduino).Am I missing any hardware and/or steps?

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 07:37:00 am
content: I don't have any experience with the OLED SSD* displays. I do have experience with the HD44780 LCD though. The HD44780 controller is part of the display (blobs on the PCB), however, some also have a I2C or SPI shift register fronting the normal (standardized) parallel interface. This project expects to interface to the normal parallel interface; with no serial front-end attached.HARDWARE:Seethishandy HD44780 LCD pinout (schematic). Orherefor a photo.Note that pins on your display may be along the top or bottom edge. Pin 1 is on the left.Pin 3 is a contrast voltage setting from the wiper of a 10K pot; with pot ends going to +5V and GND.Pin 5 is normally tied to GND for write-only mode but it looks like the display project code expects to read-back from display memory so is MCU controlled.Pins 7 through 10 (D0..D3) are left open since the Nano will be using 4-bit data transfer mode (saving MCU pins).Pins 15, 16 on the far right (if provided) are LED+,LED-. Connect +5V via in-series 1K resistor to pin 15 and connect pin 16 to GND.Seethishandy Nano pinout (2nd picture).According to "hp_display_spi.cpp" comments, connect:53132A GND J1 pin 9 or 23 to Nano pin "GND"53132A +5V J1 pin 10 or 20 to schottky diode anode with cathode to Nano pin "5V" (see note 1,3,5)53132A VFSDSCLK J1 pin 12 to 1K5 to Nano "D13"/SCK (see note 2,3)53132A VFDSIN J1 pin 14 do not connect to Nano53132A VFDSOUT J1 pin 16 to 1K5 to Nano "D11"/MOSI (see note 3)53132A VFDSEN J1 pin 18 to 1K5 to Nano "D2" (see note 3)Nano "A0"/D14 to 1K5 to Nano "D10"/SS (see note 4)Note 1:personally, I think it's kind-of sketchy to back-feed the on-board 5V regulator but apparently that's okay! See schematichere. And discussionhere.Ideally, you'd pull something >+5V from the 53132A and feed it to the Nano "Vin" which is tied to the input of the on-board 5V regulator.Note 2:you'll need to remove the "L" LED or the resistor to it because the VFSDSCLK signal after passing through a 1K5 resistor will be mangled due to the LED load on "D13". Remove the LED only after you've confirmed that the blink sketch works (see below).Note 3:you probably want to put the diode and 1K5 resistors behind the external connector on the 53132A side (before the external cable to the display).Note 4:you have one Nano pin triggering another Nano pin because VFDSEN is a LOW-HIGH-LOW signal whereas /SS is inverted; HIGH-LOW-HIGH. So the former pin is triggered on an interrupt which is inverted to tickle the latter. Whatever!Note 5:IMPORTANT IMPORTANT IMPORTANT, NEVER connect both the USB (to your computer) and cable from the project to the 53132A.According to "lcd_20x4_hd44780.cpp" comments, connect:Nano "D9" to HD44780 "RS"Nano "D8" to HD44780 "R/W"Nano "D7" to HD44780 "E"Nano "D6" to HD44780 "D4"Nano "D5" to HD44780 "D5"Nano "D4" to HD44780 "D6"Nano "D3" to HD44780 "D7"See earlier for HD44780 pin 3 (contrast) and pin 15,16 (LED) treatment.And HD44780 pin 1,2 are to be connected to GND, +5V.SOFTWARE:-Install the latest IDE fromarduino.cc(version 2.3.3).-Execute the IDE application for the first time which will download and install more stuff.-Connect the Nano via USB.-Specify to the IDE what board you're using via menu Tools->Board->Boards Manager...-Specify to the IDE what serial port you're using via menu Tools->Port...-Optionally you can specify to "Show verbose output during: compile, upload" (check both) in menu File->Preferences... (I like to see the compiler full output).-Verify your installation by loading a sample sketch via menu File->Examples->01.Basics->Blink-Click the round check mark symbol below the "File" menu to compile.-Click the right arrow symbol below the "Edit" menu to upload to the Nano.-You should see a blinking LED on the Nano.Once you've confirmed that you can compile and upload a simple sketch then do the same for the display project code below.-Install the "hd44780" by Bill Perry version 1.3.2 via menu Sketch->Include Libraries->Manage Libraries... entering "hd44780" in the search box.-Visit thedisplay project github pageand download the zip (see green "Code" button at top right of page).-Extract the zip to the default "Arduino" user projects subdirectory (I'm on Linux, Windows or Mac may be different).-Rename "hp_display-master" extracted subdirectory to "hp_display".-Start the Arduino IDE application and open the "hp_display.ino" file within the "hp_display" subdirectory.-In the "hp_display_config.h" file, uncomment the "//#define ARDUINO_NANO" and "//#define LCD_20X4_HD44780" lines. Then menu File->Save.-Click the round check mark symbol below the "File" menu to compile.-Connect the Nano via USB.-Click the right arrow symbol below the "Edit" menu to upload to the Nano.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 02:54:33 pm
content: Oh wow, you put more work into that response than I expected. Thanks for taking the time to type all that.Note 2 I was already aware of, but it's great you emphasized it just in case.Per note 5, I assume you mean don't try to program the board through USB while it's connected to the signal pins on the counter?Hopefully I won't forget that or make that mistake.Maybe this weekend I'll order the display, buffers (I have some already, so I may not need them), and believe I already have an Arduino Nano. Looking at the three suggested displays, I think the HD44780 is the best one based on size.This helps confirm the only two things I need are the display and Arduino (excluding the components such as the buffers and stuff).

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 04:08:16 pm
content: I get the impression you are new to Arduino so I wanted to provide a checklist for you.I've managed to compile the project but I don't have a 53132A to test with.Correct on note 5; disconnect from the 53132A before you program the Nano via USB (and vice versa). I think this may be for reasons to do with who powers the Nano; USB or 53132A. But if there is a schottky diode on the +5V from the 53132A and the other connections are inputs to the Nano, then it shouldn't be a problem. Maybe the inputs on the Nano have pullups enabled?The project docs don't include a schematic. Maybe it's a good idea for you to make one for clarity on where all the components are situated; buffer, protection diodes, resistors before the female connector in the 53132A, a cable, then a Nano, LCD in the display project box.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 04:50:04 pm
content: QuoteYou are correct.I know the basics of programming a micro from an existing HEX file (or whichever type), but that's just clicking buttons.I find documentation for building (in this case) an Arduino from scratch because things are usually based off a belief the reader has a good foundation already. For the external display, the documentation is clear.The thought of using an external 5V came to mind (such as a walwart), but I questioned whether tying grounds could cause noise and/or back feed thus blowing up the counter. I also considered a MOSFET (full turned on) with a fuse. This way the 5V would be somewhat isolated from the counter.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 10:08:37 pm
content: The Arduino environment is just C/C++ Language code+libraries with a one-click compile and deploy via the IDE menu (no assembly language needed nor dealing with hex files).That's why I recommended to start with the simple blink sketch (what Arduino programs are called). There's lots of help on-line.If you want to go bulletproof, use RS422/485-grade differential line drivers/receivers like 75174/75173 (4 per package, you only need 3). They are robust, made for high-speed (>1Mbps), and can tolerate shorts and voltage on their signal lines when un-powered. A 4-pair Ethernet patch cable as the interconnect would be ideal with one pair each for VFSDSCLK, VFDSOUT, VFDSEN, and power/GND.Instead of +5V (J1 pin 10 or 20), send SW+12V (from the main board) down the cable to the "Vin" on the Nano. The Nano's local 5V regulator could then power the LCD and serial line receiver from the "5V" Nano output. The higher +12V power pair and differential drive signals allow for much longer distances and you won't need any discrete in-line resistors or diode protection (clamps to +5V/GND). You'd just need an inline diode and (probably) 100mA fuse before exiting the 53132A.The +5V (J1 pin 10 or 20) which is tied to SW+5V (from the main board) is switched on when the SW+12V, SW-12V rails are powered (via front-panel soft-switch grounding Q12 and Q13). The MCU/digital parts all have DCOM as their common which is attached to the GPIB connector shield so is likely tied to the chassis and PE somewhere (I can't find the chassis symbol).

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2024, 02:02:57 am
content: I'll go with the 75174 if they are more robust.Some great suggestions especially with using the 12V. Maybe this weekend I'll double check on whether I have the Ardunio and then order the parts so I can start this.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2024, 04:11:14 am
content: I messed up the driver/receiver pair part numbers.SN75174/SN75175have only active-high enables (1 enable for each pair)SN75172/SN75173have active-high and active-low enables (controlling all four)Cheaper alternative to SN75172/SN75173 but RS422 only, not RS485 (doesn't really matter to your application):AM26LS31/AM26LS32have active-high and active-low enables (controlling all four)It's recommended to use a termination resistor at the receiver for each diff. pair (120R). See datasheet.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 03:10:33 am
content: Not sure how I have this luck, but my Arduino Mini has a ATmega4809 and not a 328.Thankfully it's not a big expense to buy the correct one.I'll dig deeper into my supply; maybe I have one with a 328.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2024, 03:18:49 am
content: How am I using the diff pair for each signal line? Am I putting one inside the unit, sending the signal down the diff pair, and then a receiver on the Ardiuno?

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2024, 05:46:32 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on November 01, 2024, 03:18:49 amYes. See attached.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2024, 12:45:18 pm
content: Thanks.That was the configuration I assumed, but began wondering if the intent was to add circuitry to the external stuff which may require a small interface board on the outside too.The display and Ardunio arrived, but I still need to order the components which I'll hopefully do this weekend; things and projects have been hectic lately.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2024, 02:35:34 pm
content: I didn't realize and forgot that one of the only BNC sized connectors I found and ordered weeks ago was five pins. Without modifying the unit to incorporate a larger connector with more pins, I resorted to a BNC size that, with some slight filing, fit through the unused BNC hole in the rear panel.In order to use a diff pair, I need more than the available five-pins.The connectors I'm using are:SC1281-ND and SC1270-NDI may need to use a buffer instead of a diff pair; unless I want to have two connectors which is a waste.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2024, 05:08:58 am
content: With a 5-pin connector you'll be limited to standard RS-232 single-ended signaling. Instead of the usual MAX232 device which only has 2 drivers and 2 receivers, you can use theSN75188/SN75189pair of devices which includes 4 drivers or 4 receivers, respectively. See wiring diagram attached. One wire from each twisted pair is connected together at each end of the patch cable and is soldered to the GND connector pin. The remaining wires, one from each twisted pair, are individually connected to their own connector pin: Vcc, VFDSCLK, VFDSOUT, and VFDSEN. Also, it's best to not put diodes in-series with the GND wires (this one differs from my previous wiring diagram).I happen to have the SN75188/SN75189 devices and have done a quick 1MHz test with one 8ft (2.40m) twisted pair (see attached waveforms). The driver device requires a bipolar supply and the receiver device requires only a single +5V supply. As you can see, the driver has a better output waveform (BLUE) with similar duty cycle to the input (YELLOW) when powered by a +/-6V bipolar supply vs. the usual +/-12V supply, although the recommend minimum is +/-7.5V. However, a +/-12V supply is readily available as SW+12V/SW-12V (see attached 53132A PS schematic) andmay stillwill work forSPIsince the data only changes on one edge and sampled on the other edge. GREEN is the waveform on the receiver input.Adding a 330R termination resistor at the receiver input doesn't improve the output (BLUE) waveform; still 60% duty cycle (using a +/-12V driver supply).

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 02:39:23 am
content: QuoteIf it's not being ridiculous, I can use linear regulators to generate the +/-7.5V.I'm buying the chips anyway, what is two regulators at this point.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 12:27:19 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on November 08, 2024, 02:39:23 amI wasn't thinking about the added cost. I just see the extra regulator complexity as unnecessary since it won't matter for SPI. I just thought it was a interesting discovery that the receiver output duty cycle changed with driver supply voltage.BTW: the reason I'd put a couple (or several) series diodes on Vcc is just so the tiny 5V regulator on the Nano isn't overheated but the remote display MCU and LCD probably don't pose much of a load. Breadboard the solution to confirm.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 02:24:33 pm
content: QuoteI saw that note and thought it was a good idea. I've been thinking about the design while working on several other projects (hence why I haven't finished this) and thought three or four diodes would suffice.The complexity of a regulator isn't that big of a deal, however, I'll admit, going from: let me open the cover to see if a loose connection is causing the VFD to not display correctly to what I've deviated to has been comical.Unfortunately finding a connector that would fit through the extra BNC hole and had more than five-pins didn't seem to exist. The one I bought is a nice screw on type, and, with a bit of filing, managed to fit nicely.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2025, 03:35:27 pm
content: I've been working on this off and on the since the weekend.As discussed, I'm taking +12v and -12v from the main board to power the 1488. The +12v is going through six 1N4004s before going outside to the Nano to reduce the heat on the 5v regulator.The question I have is regarding the schematic and making sure I'm grabbing the signals from the correct points (I'm taking them from the ribbon cable connections on the main board).Page 53 on the schematics show things like VFDSCLK, but the label changes to BVFDSCLK. On the front panel schematic it's shown again as VFDSCLK.I've soldered the wires to the three pins (12, 16, and 18), but wanted to verify this is correct. Normally the "B" would indicate a different node, but I'm guessing this was done because they go through the series current limiting resistors and the two nodes can't have the same name.It's just odd they revert to removing the "B" when it goes to the front panel board.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2025, 06:50:37 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on January 07, 2025, 03:35:27 pmThis should be fine.I don't think you'll have an issue driving the extra inputs of the 1488 through the 1K resistors.Schematics don't always make sense; can be contradictory.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 12:17:55 am
content: Thanks.Seemed odd to rename the node names, but, as you stated, schematics don't always make sense.I agree and assumed the 1k resistors (1.92k on VFDSEN) won't affect anything. Just wanted to confirm I wasn't overlooking the nodes going elsewhere.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2025, 03:17:36 am
content: I began building the external display circuits on a perf board, however, I got annoyed at trying to run all the jumpers, so I made a PCB.Attached is the schematic. It began as a simple circuit, but I didn't want to make two separate boards, and put everything on one board with the idea I'll only populate what is needed for each board.Unfortunately I didn't create a good schematic because I used too many ports. I should have placed the connections next to the IC rather than separate the circuits with ports. Also, my pet peeve is placing too many circuits on a single page, and I did just that.I'm uncertain whether I'll use all the "features" I placed on the board, but thought have LEDs would be cool, connectors for future troubleshooting, and a regulator should I need one rather than use the one on the Arduino.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2025, 12:36:16 am
content: Thankfully this past weekend I made time to somewhat complete the external display.The "transmitter" board (the SN75188 portion) is installed in a 3D printed box mounted to the inside side panel. All connections from the counter PCB go to this box, and then an eight wire twisted pair Ethernet cable goes from this box to the rear panel where I installed a connector.The external "receiver" board (the SN75189 portion) is connected to the same type eight wire twisted pair Ethernet and plugs into the rear panel of the counter where I installed the connector. Due to not knowing whether this would work and location of the external display, I left this cable long, approximately 3' (1m).This "receiver" board makes all the connections (currently a hacked wiring job) to the Arduino; and then from the Arduino to the display (also currently a hacked wiring job).For the external display, I went with: HiLetgo HD44780 2004 LCD 20x4 2004A Character LCD Screen Display Module Blue Backlight with IIC/I2C Serial Interface AdapterThings seem to work well except for two issues. The first is poor refresh rate on the external display. I increased the counter gate time to two and three seconds, and both still showed ghosting. It's quite poor quality and not exactly ideal for taking measurements. I thought this size display would be nice and why I went with it.Any suggestions on a nice size display with a good refresh rate?The other is the counter front panel displays fine, but the external display places an 'X' where any and all numerical digit 3s' go. Unless it's also missing something else that hasn't been displayed yet (or I overlooked) all numerical digits display fine except the number '3'.Maybe I overlooked a connection or a wire broke, but would think a missing connection would have more than just a single number display wrong.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2025, 02:21:56 am
content: Earlier I checked many functions of the counter and the external display seems to display everything just fine except the number '3' regardless of position. The front panel (VFD) on the counter displays just fine.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2025, 03:13:37 am
content: QuoteQuote from: bostonman on February 20, 2025, 02:21:56 amIt would appear you've found a bug in the software.Given your counter displays the flat-top "3" (see yourreply #129), the code probably doesn't expect that so it substitutes "x".From hp_msg_parse.cpp:Code:/* map a character segments combination into a character to display, x for unknown */uint8_t map_seg14_code_x(uint16_t segs14) {for (int i = 0; i < seg_n; i++) {if (seg_codes == segs14) {return seg_mapped_chars;}}add_unk_seg14(segs14);return 'x';}Where seg_codes[ ] is initialized in segmapgen.c whose 4th value (index 3) is 0x4489 corresponding to seg_mapped_chars[ 3 ]="3".Given the front panel schematic 75518 pin mapping to segments and what you've providedhere, I'll have to confirm which bit in seg_codes[ i ] corresponds to which segment. Then you can change that 0x4489 value accordingly for your style of "3".

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2025, 03:26:37 am
content: Wow, you're awesome!I was thinking about this logically and was stuck on the hardware being an issue (especially since I hacked the wiring on the Nano and display to confirm the design worked before making a 3D box to hold everything.With everything else displaying correctly, I couldn't figure out what it would be.It didn't occur to me that the software could have a bug, but, even more, remembering I have a flat top '3'.Once I get this fixed, then it's a matter of whether a better display exists. The ghosting is really bad in my opinion and makes reading the numbers difficult.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2025, 03:42:34 am
content: I've manually confirmed the first 4 elements of seg_codes[ ] and the bit patterns correspond to the segment ordering: EDJNMCPQAILKBFGHFor a flat-top "3", the K segment should be 1 vs the B segment of a normal "3"So, replace the 0x4489 with 0x4491 in the segmapgen.c file. Recompile, then re-flash.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2025, 04:16:30 am
content: Thanks.I should have time either tomorrow or over the weekend. Maybe I'll comment the line instead and add the new HEX code with a comment on why it's different.Wish I knew more programming rather than a few basic 'Hello World!' stuff, then maybe I could have found this myself and/or followed along with your analysis.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2025, 04:08:23 am
content: Wow, that did the trick.Not only would this external display project never have taken place without the assistance of this thread (not including the many others who have contributed to questions in other threads), but I would have been lost with the X in place of a 3.I have to ask, but sure it's not worth typing, so don't trouble yourself, but how did you understand how to change the HEX code to that number? I would have assumed seven (if I counted correctly) segments would need to be a '1' in order to produce a '3', but the HEX code you told me to use is 17545 in decimal and neither the HEX or DEC code seem to make sense of it.Obviously I don't know C well (I can read some of it and understand it), but I couldn't follow it, so I was lost when I tried to make sense of things (hence why I wouldn't have solved this on my own).As for the ghosting, now that I have the hardware and software working, I'll have to experiment with other displays. I assume the ghosting isn't related to cable length or anything like that, it's just slow to refresh.Also, I have two questions. The first is somewhat easy. In the steps to program the Nano, I have to download "hd44780" by Bill Perry version 1.3.2. In order to preserve the files for future needs should this library go extinct, does a way exist to save this as a local file so I can program more Nano units in the future should something happen to this one (obviously I can buy a few extra spare Nano units and flash them)?The other question is regarding whether I found another bug. When powering the unit, the external doesn't display all the characters (which is probably due to size restrictions), displays the pound sign instead of all the segments, and repeats some info (see the double -Wid?).Is this normal or another bug?

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2025, 06:23:34 pm
content: QuoteI'm not sure if by "ghosting" you mean text update time or the faint square background.These LCD modules are slow to react (they have a shitty MCU on-board) but could also be the LCD reaction time too. So if you're updating multiple times per second it's probably not going to meet expectations.From your picture of the LCD module, it doesn't look like you've connected pin 3 (VO). It should be connected to a 10K pot to control/adjust the contrast. That's why there's a faint square behind each character. Are you using your I2C module at all? Because the project code (lcd_20x4_hd44780.cpp) doesn't look like it's using the functions to send to a I2C address. Just like your I2C module (seehere; 2nd and 4th images) attach a 10K pot, wiper to pin 3, ends to Vcc and GND just like in the schematic.QuoteI knew it was a software bug given your description since if everything worked except "3" that told me the SPI link worked fine (not a flaky/length of cable issue). The software's job is to map symbols (which anodes are on) to ASCII (what the LCD understands), ergo, it must not expect your (flat top) "3" since "x" is quite a deliberate substitution. Checking themap_seg14_code_x()code confirmed it. It even says in the READMEhere(a blurb that I found after I'd checked the code first).QuoteI looked at the front panel schematic to understand the segment ordering and yoursegment-to-anode mapping.Assuming SPI sends most-significant-bit first, each 16-bitseg_codesarray element should have this bit-to-segment mapping: EDJNMCPQAILKBFGHDecoding the first 4 array elements confirmed it; "0" has all outside anodes on, "1" has two center vertical anodes on, "2" has ABDEGH on, "3" has ABCDH on.But that's not your "3". Yours is ACDHK which corresponds to 0x4491. See attached.WRT libraries... adjacent to your Arduino/hp_display project directory there's a Arduino/libraries/hd44780 directory. You can back that up too. I doubt this library will disappear anytime soon; been around since 2014. Besides, there are many LCD module libraries around that can be reworked. I've made my own too from scratch using only the datasheet.QuoteLike I said, it's trying to map (anodes) symbols to ASCII but the LCD can't really accommodate the colon+semicolon as part of the same character nor the annunciators all on a 20 character line.See the videohere. It's a "feature".

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2025, 08:58:23 pm
content: QuoteBy ghosting, the digits take about 1-2 seconds to fully turn off. I haven't used it to measure frequencies, but suspect trying to adjust a pot to calibrate a piece of equipment will not be easy. Even something simple like turning on/off x10 took a good two-seconds before the '0' fully vanished.QuoteInitially I didn't connect this because I wanted to see how the display would look (and whether it worked). All I cared about at that point was whether my PCB and wiring was correct (which it was) and not how it looked. When I saw a pot on the back (see attached picture - this is how the back of my LCD is), I turned it and the brightness increased/decreased, so I thought: okay, maybe this is already completed for me, so I didn't connect a pot.Let me know if this is wrong, but I wasn't trying to cut corners or didn't follow the information, since the pot "worked", I just assumed the need for a pot wasn't necessary and I have a display that incorporated it for me.QuoteI'm sure you're correct, but things seem to change fast. It may not necessarily be the library that vanishes, but incompatibility with the library and future Nano boards.Also, since I'm not on the software end (I'm sure it's obvious), I'm limited on implementing software into new displays.The good news (I think) is that all signals come out the back eliminating the need to work inside the unit for any future changes. Instead of dropping the +12V on the inside as I planned, I brought it to the rear of the unit for any future needs. Initially I was going to drop the 12v down to approx. 8v by going through six diodes, but thought it would be better to send 12v out the back and then drop the voltage on my external PCB.I also planned to use the 5v regulator on the Nano (with 8v going into it) to power the external 75189, but placed a 5v regulator on my PCB instead since I had several dozen regulators in my inventory already.As my schematic shows, I went overboard on the design, but figured, if I'm spending the time/money on a PCB, I might as well add everything onto it and then not populate whichever I felt wasn't needed later.Now that I know my display works, maybe I'll dive into whether any better displays exist that have faster refresh. I'd really like to put this counter back on the shelf and move on though; but think the hard part is now over.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2025, 10:30:14 pm
content: QuoteI was concerned that you still have the I2C board attached and wires connecting RS,RW,E,D4-7 to your Nano at the same time; ie. connecting two outputs together for each line! BUT then I looked at thedatasheet for the PCF8574. It says: "The internal Power-On Reset (POR) initializes the I/Os as inputs with a weak internal pull-up 100 μA current source." So no concern here WRT connected outputs. Just don't connect/use the SDA, SDL pins if you're driving the LCD in parallel mode. And the existing I2C module pot is connected so no need for another external pot.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 03:51:23 pm
content: The Excel spreadsheet you provided showing the binary and HEX codes made this much clearer. I tend to get overwhelmed by excessive documentation and don't put the pieces together (hence why I'm a better hands on tinkerer than creating). All the documentation will be there, but I just don't make the mental connections.I wasn't focusing on the segments (that ironically I posted) but a binary '1' would display 1, binary '2' would display 2, etc...Now that I understand, I could even replace segment C with M and have two diagonal lines for a '3'; but I won't mess with what works.Yesterday I placed the cover on my counter in hopes of never needing to open it again (I'll post a pic of the board and 3D box I made). My plan is to improve the hacked wire connections on the Nano, make them permanent, and maybe make a 3D printed box for it (or I may wait and make one large box for the display and Nano); and actually 3D boxes for the Nano already exist online so I don't need to recreate the wheel.Just to be clear, the Nano connections are connected to the display where the red arrow is (see attached). The Nano only has pin names on the silk screen where the headers are and where I soldered the wires (both for the input cable and wires going to the display). I contemplated making the Nano pretty, but figured let me see if this all works first; worst case I hack the Nano bad enough that I need a new one.The display doesn't have any silk screen on the I2C board (I didn't know this is an I2C - I just thought it was something to house the display driver chip), so all wire connections go where the red arrow is. I'm assuming the outputs aren't tied together (although you confirmed this on the datasheet), so I don't need to concern myself with outputs tied together.The SDA and SDL are for programming anyway, so I shouldn't need to touch those (unless I'm wrong).Unless you see something wrong with how I wired it, guess the hard part is over.The focus now is dealing with the display. Does the software limit me to a 20x4 display or can I go bigger, maybe LED (or something that refreshes faster)?If something happens to the VFD, then beggars can't be choosers, so I'd settle on the current ghosting image display, but the ghosting would limit the ability to tweak something if you're trying to read digits in the 10s and 100ths place.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2025, 05:01:23 am
content: QuoteAm I overlooking something? I had asked whether the HD44780 library by Bill Perry can be backed up should this be unable to be downloaded in the future. For some reason I can't seem to locate a directory as listed above.Some confusion over alternate displays exist. It seems other displays are suggested in the Github docs, but not sure if they are compatible with the existing HD44780 (?) driver stuff.I also purchased some tiny LCD displays (I think they were in the video), but they only have four connections: Vcc, GND, SDA, SCL.Ignoring the fact I don't see any other connections, these are too small, but I'd like to get a display that doesn't ghost. Ideally a larger one would be great too.The Github docs mention one that's similar in size to the existing, but I didn't see whether it's compatible with the existing code.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2025, 10:35:42 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on March 04, 2025, 05:01:23 amThat is the installed location of the library if you are running version 2.x of the Arduino IDE (I assumed you are using). If you're running 1.x.y of the Arduino IDE then you'll find it under <home dir>/arduino-1.x.y/libraries/hd44780 or <home dir>/sketchbook/libraries/hd44780.However, rather than save the post-install directory content, it would be better to just download the zip file direct from thegithub page here(press green Code button at top right, choose Download ZIP). See main README file for installation instructions.QuoteThere is adisplay-specific docthat discusses your display options. You've got the default 20x4 HD44780 character display. This is a parallel data interface that's become anindustry standardsince the early '80s. The HD44780 controller ICs are under the black blobs on the main PCB. However, this requires many control signals to the MCU so it is common to attach a serial-to-parallel daughter-board instead. These areI2C serialorSPI serial. You have the former serial board attached (hence just SDA, SCL, and power pins). But you're not using this mode and as I wrote earlier, the serial board won't interfere if you've directly attached the parallel signal wires to the MCU.The project really only uses I2C or SPI to the small OLED displays so serial to the HD44780 is not an option for you without non-trivial code changes. The display-specific doc says how to change the hp_display_config.h file (commenting/uncommenting #defines) to use one of the OLED displays instead of the parallel HD44780 character display. And will also require aU8g2 serial library version 2.24.3.With regards to ghosting... you can try slowing down the display update rate to say, half a second.Edit thelcd_20x4_hd44780.cppfile and insert the red lines below at around line 74.(caveat emptor - it compiles and should work)...void lcd_20x4_hd44780_update() {static unsigned long lastmillis = 0;if ((millis() - lastmillis) < 500) return; else lastmillis = millis();static char line[LCD_COLS+1];if (disp_change & (CHANGE_TEXT_COMB | CHANGE_UNITS_COMB)) {...

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2025, 12:55:20 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on February 21, 2025, 08:58:23 pmThat seems strange, I do not recall Character LCD's being that slow.Did you confirm with a scope that the data transfer was very fast? (ie it really is the optical display that is slow)I did find a newhaven Char LCD spechttps://newhavendisplay.com/content/specs/NHD-C0220BiZ-FSRGB-FBW-3VM.pdfthat claimsOptical rise time150ms typ, 250ms MAXOptical fall time200ms typ, 300ms MAXthat uses a 3.3V supply and a charge pump to increase LCD drive to 5.5VThis larger 4x20 display specs the same response timeshttps://newhavendisplay.com/content/specs/NHD-0420E2Z-FSW-GBW.pdf

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2025, 02:29:39 am
content: I don't see any code to throttle-down the LCD update rate. As soon as an SPI frame is received (seeloop()inhp_display.ino) a call tolcd_20x4_hd44780_update()inlcd_20x4_hd44780.cppis made where there are multiple pairs oflcd.setCursor(...)andlcd.print(line)calls. Hence, the code in my previous post to stop the constant overwriting, giving the characters a chance to settle for 500ms.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2025, 02:45:38 am
content: QuoteI need to focus more and not get overwhelmed by all the documentation. This was fully my mistake as I was searching the hp_display software directory and not the Arduino-IDE directory.As for the tiny displays I have, I mentioned the SDA and SCL and didn't understand this was serial data; I thought these were programming pins (although the device doesn't have any noticeable chips that would be programmed).Prior to reading these messages, I connected the small display to the Nano SDA and SCL to A4 and A5 respectively (update: and also 5V and GND) and didn't get any images. After reading the documentation, I came across needing to un-comment a line and got the error about needing U8g2 when I tried compiling; so I was on the correct track.I'll try implementing the updated code you provided and will update after.QuoteJust to clarify, the PCB I laid out has the wire holes next to the ICs, so the signals are not traveling far at all. On the other hand, the cable I used (which I'm kind of regretting due to it being too stiff) is typical twisted pair, but solid wire (hence the stiffness).As mentioned, the cable lengths are a bit long and maybe this is an issue. Inside the unit the signal wires go from the main board to my "transmitter" board over about 12" (I'm estimating the higher end). From that board (which is now providing buffered signals) about another 12" to the connector I installed on the rear of the unit.The external cable that plugs into the rear to my "receiver" board is about 3' (1m). From there maybe another 12" to the Nano, and then about 8" of wire for all the lines to the display.I went overboard on wire lengths due to not being sure whether I'd be cutting wires due to troubleshooting, external display location, etc... Maybe the lengths are too long and causing issues.I'll gladly measure signals with a scope (and why I incorporated test connectors onto my PCBs).Are you asking I measure "data transfer" by comparing signals from the transmitter board and when they are received by the receiver board or for rise time at the receiver end (or both)?

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2025, 04:16:54 am
content: QuoteYour wire length is fine. It's not about the propagation or rise time of a digital signal down a wire. It's about the frequency of the E signal (pin 6).Every time the E signal is toggled (low-high-low) a new 4-bit word of command or data (in D4..D7) is transferred to the LCD. A SetCursor command (~2ms) or PrintCharacter command (~40us) each need two E toggles to transfer so it should take 2+20*2 E toggles to transfer a whole line. Times that by four for a whole display (or about 8ms). If the MCU sends as fast as the LCD can receive it then that's a 125Hz update rate. That's unnecessarily fast which may be the cause of your ghosting. These displays have memory and do their own multiplexing so the MCU should limit the update rate to what a human can perceive (2-10Hz) which should allow each character to settle.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2025, 02:17:56 am
content: I changed the code to 500ms and it became unbearably slow. So slow that I enabled 50ohms and the main screen cleared the words before the external display showed it.After I tried 50ms and that was faster (obviously), but still slow.I took scope captures of the E line (see attached), but getting the scope to trigger was impossible, so doubt this is useful. The pulses kept jumping phase regardless of triggering or trying to find something on the Nano to use as a trigger.Also, I managed to get a picture of the external display in transition (prior to trying the 500ms code) to give an idea of what I'm seeing.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2025, 03:35:52 pm
content: I see what you mean by ghosting now.I wanted to recreate it myself so I modified theHelloWorld Arduino example(from the IDE: File -> Examples -> LiquidCrystal -> HelloWorld). The loop() function is hammering setCursor() and print() as fast as possible (no delays) but the static "Hello World" text seems fine/stable; no flickering (see attachment). This destroys my earlier argument that constant fast updates causes redraw flicker due to an erase before writing a character. In hindsight, this makes sense since a data write is just updating memory inside the LCD controller. The controller is still multiplexing at its normal pace. However, I've modified the HelloWorld example to "millis()/100" instead of the original "millis()/1000" (see code below). This causes the rightmost digit to be blurry. This confirms that a data change at 10 times per second makes it unreadable. Given what PCB.Wiz wrote about rise/fall-times, it looks like you could probably only get 2 updates per second to maintain some readability. Yes, these LCDs do suck.Code:void loop() {lcd.setCursor(0, 1);lcd.print(millis() / 100);}But I'm at a loss to understand how a fast update is usable even on the main VFD. The value is useless except to tell you the source isn't constant. The same behaviour is seen in the project video at the 1 min mark.If you want to snapshot the ever changing numeric value at twice per second, make the following code changes in red to thelcd_20x4_hd44780.cppfile.This should still keep annunciator/label changes reacting instantly.void lcd_20x4_hd44780_update() {static unsigned long lastmillis = 0;static bool canUpdate = ((millis() - lastmillis) > 500);if (canUpdate) lastmillis = millis();static char line[LCD_COLS+1];if (canUpdate &&disp_change & (CHANGE_TEXT_COMB | CHANGE_UNITS_COMB)) {// check if we can fit text/numbers and units in one lineif ((disp_text_combined_len + 1 + disp_units_combined_len) <= LCD_COLS) {...

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2025, 10:57:05 pm
content: Did I overlook something or did you not post the video? Besides the 'hello world' picture, I see a blurry picture (I assume this is the video).I apologize, I'm a bit confused over the issue. The data is "hammering" the controller, but that doesn't change the refresh rate the controller is updating the screen, correct?If this is correct, then why would the ghosting exist if the controller is made the communicate with the display at a rate it can (or should) handle?QuoteI'm uncertain how others use their their counter, but in almost all cases I reference it to a Cesium atomic clock and adjust stuff that requires calibration. A slow moving counter will make tweaking a piece of equipment harder whereas I can see how the frequency is changing instantly.Maybe I'm use to doing it my way, but it's typically how I utilize my counter.Actually, after reassembling it, I wanted to adjust the reference on the counter by feeding a 10MHz from the Cesium. I think the spec is 10MHz +/- 5Hz and having a fast moving display allowed me to gt it better than 5Hz; although I know these type circuits will deviate over temp/time.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2025, 03:42:22 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on March 09, 2025, 10:57:05 pmThe video I was linking to is the one on thegithub project page. I've put a link in my "...1 min mark here." text. To me, it appears as a video player box (following that text) ready to click the play button. "here" might be underlined (a link to the video) in your case.The picture (not a video) of the green LCD with the blurry right-most digit was my re-creation of your problem.QuoteI wasn't sure if the high frequency writes (with no data changes) was causing the ghosting. My HelloWorld test proved that although we can print() to the LCD controller very fast, the unchanging text ("Hello, world") didn't flicker but the changing right-most numeric digit at just 10 times per second made the character unreadable. That points to the optical response as the culprit.QuoteIn your use case, when the counter and the source almost agree then the displayed frequency should be stable; or at most the last digit may change. I thought you found the ghosting distracting and wanted to slow the update rate down.With my last code snip you can dial it down to 250ms (4 times per second) so it's still responsive but just above the threshold of blurring. For example, if the source was jittery then the LSD would blur (be superimposed) between, say "3" and "4". But with my slow-down code, then it would switch between "3" and "4", 4 times per second. You would see the digit clearly bouncing between "3" and "4". Or so I believe.

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2025, 03:54:47 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on March 07, 2025, 02:17:56 amIs the VO pin connected to a correct bias voltage here?(note the image in #196 has a small trimpot on VO)

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2025, 10:45:12 pm
content: Odd, the video didn't show on my phone but showed on the PC now.I'll try the new code soon; I've disconnected all the wires with intention of cleaning things rather than a rat nest of wires.So are the options to use the current display with the improved ghosting or a tiny OLED (or the untested larger display)?The OLED looks like it doesn't have ghosting, or far less. Why not incorporate a large one like the size of a cell phone? Any reason such a size couldn't be used or will it still have ghosting?

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2025, 11:57:07 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on March 10, 2025, 10:45:12 pmYou can get OLED in 20x4https://www.winstar.com.tw/products/oled-module/oled-character-display/20x4-oled.htmlclaimsThe WEH002004A shares identical outline dimensions (98.0 x 60.0 mm) and view area size (77.0 x 25.2 mm) as the Winstar LCD WH2004A, utilizing the same pinout configuration. Winstar's 20x4 OLED Display is an excellent choice for upgrading applications from STN LCDs to OLED displays. Key features include:Faster response time at +25°C (10 microseconds)Unlimited viewing angle up to 175 degreesThin design with self-emitting technology, eliminating the need for a backlightHigh brightness and a contrast ratio of up to 10,000:1Wide operating temperature range from -40°C to 80°CLower power consumption, contributing to reduced CO2 emissionsAddit: I see the OLED 256x64 are slightly cheaper than the 20x4, for a slightly larger view area, and a much smaller PCB.https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006161674142.htmlMose complex SW, but I think you already have that?Not easy to find info on the relative optical refresh of the OLED 20x4 vs OLED 256x64 displays?

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2025, 01:12:33 am
content: QuoteI've looked at the 98 x 60 or so a few weeks ago. This 256 x 64 looks even better.Ideally I should get the small OLED I already have to display and check the refresh to see if it's good before investing time/money into a larger one. Also, I need to incorporate the recent code to see how the refresh looks.Hopefully within the next few days I'll reconnect all the wires. Earlier I printed another 3D box to house the Arduino Nano this way I can eliminate many of those wires from flopping around.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2025, 12:53:44 am
content: pqass,I'm curious, have you measured the E line with an oscilloscope? As mentioned, I couldn't get my scope to trigger and wondering how you referenced the scope.My scope is an Agilent 54831M that I repaired myself and it sometimes does stuff I consider weird. My years of experience was using slower analog scopes, so going to this much faster digital scope often has me questioning whether the scope is possessed, I'm not measuring correctly, or the signal normally jumps phase.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2025, 06:05:35 am
content: I didn't have an issue triggering on the E signal but if you let the scope free-run the trace will appear jittery because the code will write to the LCD at irregular times. You have to use the (single-shot) stop button which you should have as per the manual for your scope.See attached waveforms (YELLOW=E signal, GREEN=RS signal) of my HelloWorld code in steady-state (counting millis()/100 on the second line).You will notice that it takes 2 E pulses per character (RS=HIGH meaning data was sent in D4-7) for a total of 4 characters. Then 2 E pulses but with RS=LOW (meaning a command was sent in D4-7) which is the setCursor(). Then there is a short delay with no E pulses which I believe is the division and print() function overhead prior to sending characters to the LCD.Notice the frequency of the GREEN trace which represents one iteration of setCursor()+print() in loop(). It's at 615Hz but the data changes at only at 10 times per second (millis()/100).FYI: E pulse width is 2.2us (E too short to see in this pix).Also, about the OLED 256x64 display that was linked by PCB.Wiz in reply #201...It uses a SSD1322 controller which is supported by the U8g2 library. However, you'll need to modify the project code to call the appropriate calls in the library. See all references to OLED_128X64 and OLED_128X64_SSD1309_SW_SPI defines in: hp_display_config.h, hp_display.ino, oled_128x64.h, oled_128x64.cpp (see the U8G2_BASE_CLASS define within). I haven't delved into the code enough to understand what you need to change in the project code.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2025, 11:06:20 pm
content: Ahhh makes more sense, I appreciate the feedback (as always) and will try taking measurements when I pretty up the wiring.The only time I use single shot settings is to capture rise time. Other times such as measuring microprocessor signals, I just get a bunch of moving junk. I've never needed to get deep with measuring such signals, so I never dove into solving this issue.Also, as mentioned, having such a scope is new to me. Prior I used old Tektronix analog, but hopefully my scope will show the same results as your capture.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2025, 01:05:41 am
content: QuoteI don't want anyone thinking I'm leaving the topic open after all the help provided. I've cleaned the wiring all the way up to my PCB receiver portion of the external display. The rats nest of wires are now from the Nano to the display; and recently I added the tiny OLED. Once I figure out which display I like, then I'll clean up this rats nest too.In case anyone is reading this and is having difficulty getting the small OLED to work, besides uncommenting a few lines of code, the address code needs to be changed (or at least in my case). It was 0x3d and I had to change it to 0x3c#define OLED_I2C_ADDR 0x3d in file oled_128x64My OLED board showed a resistor in 0x3c and I figured the code needed to be altered (or I guess the other solution is moving the resistor).The refresh rate on the OLED is so much better, but obviously very small. Now that I've cleaned the wiring, I'll try the code you provided, but guessing it still won't refresh to my liking and I'll look into the other display(s) suggested.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2025, 08:01:24 pm
content: I tried the other code and it didn't seem to improve the ghosting.The good news is that all my wiring is finalized up to the Nano. Wish I had/selected a cable that flexed better, but, unless the front panel fails, most likely I won't use the external display often and this stiff cable will be fine.Just to make sure I understand, I can use any display providing it has a SSD1322 controller? The one suggested in message #201 looks good, but I was hoping to find something even larger and wanted to make sure I understand what to search for.The tiny OLED is nice and crisp. Not sure if it has a good refresh rate or it's so tiny that anomalies aren't as obvious. If I find a larger OLED with similar crisp text, I think it will be perfect.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2025, 06:53:27 am
content: QuoteTheSSD1322 controllerhas both parallel and SPI interface options.Check the datasheet for your display first to make sure it exposes the SPI pins (controller datasheet calls it "3-wire or 4-wire SPI").Also, note the Vcc (3V3 or 5V) of the display and if it has logic level converters on-board to interact with your 5V Nano or if you have do that.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 09:18:17 pm
content: After a hiatus, I took time to connect the new 3.12" OLED. The delay was due to other projects, and, this being a Aliexpress board, it was delivered without any documentation which caused me to wait until I could dive into researching connections.It's suppose to have the 1322 controller, but I can't see a controller (the attached is a similar version of mine). The only markings on it are: 3.12" OLED, v2.1 and a table for resistor locations to set for 3SPI, 4SPI, 80xx, and 68xx.The resistors are in the 4SPI location.The only connections are a sixteen-pin headerCheating, I used ChatGPT and it told me the following pin names (see below) - but maybe it's incorrect. I verified pin 1 is ground though.I un-commented #define OLED_128X64` and #define OLED_128X64_SSD1309_SW_SPI (I wasn't sure which one so I un-commented both).If I understand correctly, all I need is Vcc, GND, pin 4 of the OLED to A5 of the Nano, and pin 5 on the OLED to A4 on the Nano.So far I tried both 3.3v first and then 5v, and the display is blank. What am I doing wrong?According to AI, these are the header pin designators.1 GND Ground2 VCC Supply Voltage (commonly 3.3V or 5V)3 D/C# Data/Command Select4 R/W# / SCL Read/Write (Parallel) or Clock (SPI)5 E / SDA Enable (Parallel) or Data (SPI)6 RES# Reset (active low)7 CS# Chip Select (active low)8 NC Not Connected9 D0 Data Bus Bit 0 (for 6800/8080 parallel mode)10 D1 Data Bus Bit 111 D2 Data Bus Bit 212 D3 Data Bus Bit 313 D4 Data Bus Bit 414 D5 Data Bus Bit 515 D6 Data Bus Bit 616 D7 Data Bus Bit 7

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2025, 06:36:32 am
content: The writing on the back of the display (your image) doesn't appear to correspond to what ChatGPT says.According to the datasheet (see screenshot below) and oled_128x64.cpp, for 4SPI configuration, the pins to connect are:DISPLAY NANOGND (pin 1) GNDVcc (pin 2) 5VRES (pin 3) A3GND (pin 4) GNDD/C (pin 5) A4CS (pin 6) A5E/RD (pin 7) GNDR/W (pin 8 ) GNDD1/DIN (pin 9) A2D0/CLK (pin 10) A1D3 (pin 11) GNDD2 (pin 12) leave unconnectedD5 (pin 13) GNDD4 (pin 14) GNDD7 (pin 15) GNDD6 (pin 16) GNDYou should only have #define OLED_128X64_SSD1309_SW_SPI uncommented.Leave #define OLED_128X64 #define OLED_I2C_ADDR and #define LCD_20X4_HD44780 commented.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2025, 11:38:58 am
content: QuoteI fully agree, but wasn't sure whether to believe the names on the image (as stated, the image is slightly different than my board) or believe ChatGPT. I didn't grasp why a 4SPI needed more than four wires, so the confusion was across a few areas - and I'm uncertain whether this display configuration complies with typical 3/4 SPI or whether it's unique.ChatGPT has been something I'll bounce questions off here and there, but it hasn't provided much accurate answers. In this case I was hoping it would remove (or reduce) the confusion; but it obviously didn't.The important part is that Vcc and GND didn't get mixed up.The guidance on which one to uncomment helps eliminate one unknown allowing me to focus on wiring according to this table.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2025, 05:16:54 pm
content: The AI pin numbers look sequential, not zig-zag like typically done with a dual-row header. A few of these OLED's have single row headers.I have that display and datasheets somewhere. The 1322 is the black module on the flat cable.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2025, 05:55:50 pm
content: I followed the table you provided (re-pasted below) and unfortunately still a blank display. Also, un-commented the line you suggested along with commenting the other stuff.I think the only thing left un-commented is #define Arduino_Nano.My guess is I'm stuck with Chinese knock off display.DISPLAY NANOGND (pin 1) GNDVcc (pin 2) 5VRES (pin 3) A3GND (pin 4) GNDD/C (pin 5) A4CS (pin 6) A5E/RD (pin 7) GNDR/W (pin 8 ) GNDD1/DIN (pin 9) A2D0/CLK (pin 10) A1D3 (pin 11) GNDD2 (pin 12) leave unconnectedD5 (pin 13) GNDD4 (pin 14) GNDD7 (pin 15) GNDD6 (pin 16) GND

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2025, 03:15:55 pm
content: To confirm that the display still works,you can create a simple display demo using one of the example sketches that comes with the U8g2 library.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2025, 01:16:58 am
content: This is the display I bought in hopes of improving the ghosting. I haven't had this working, so I don't know whether it ever worked.The displays I had working (simultaneously) were the 20x4 LCD and the tiny 128 x 64 OLED Display.This OLED is from Aliexpress and I don't know if the way I'm connecting it is correct, so doubt I can confirm by any example files.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2025, 01:13:38 pm
content: After several attempts, I haven't figured out anything with this display.The board doesn't have anything other than the 3.12" OLED ver: 2.1 silk screen and a resistor table. The only components are resistors, caps, and inductors. Looking closely under the microscope, I saw a tiny rectangular piece within the ribbon cable with the marking: Y302AR2-23I didn't find any information about this, so I'm uncertain if this is the driver chip embedded onto the ribbon cable. If not, then I'm wondering if this needs an external driver chip (this whole time I assumed it was an all in one unit that just needs the proper signals).I had the idea to let ChatGPT generate Arduino Nano code based on assumed wire connections that would cycle through all permutations. My idea was to connect Vcc and ground (think I have the correct pins located - ground is the easy one), and let it generate code to place signals on all five wires changing the permutations. It suggested testing four different drivers; each having 120 permutations. I connected an external switch to manually cycle through each permutation.Unfortunately, after four-days, ChatGPT was unable to produce working code. First it produced what I wanted, but, after several revisions, discovered the code was only simulating and not actually producing signals. Then it produced signals but arbitrarily decided to change the function of the code, after it told me the code wouldn't work and bit banging was necessary, then it produced code exceeding the memory size, etc...I've given up on ChatGPT producing code, but that doesn't solve how to figure out wire connections.The only good news is that during the testing I saw a few blips of life on the screen, and a concerning one where it placed snow on the screen but didn't clear after changing permutation (ChatGPT told me the code didn't refresh the screen and that's why it remained) - but cleared after a power recycle.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2025, 02:06:05 am
content: I dug through Aliexpress OLED links to locate one that listed the pin designations and finally found one.After tinkering with this display and code, I've learned some of the basics, but uncertain how to implement this OLED into the existing hp_display code.The OLED I have is: DIYTZT Real OLED Display 3.12 256 64 25664 Dots SSD1322 Controller (white)It uses pins: 1, 2, 4, 5, 14, 15, and, 16 and GND, Vcc, D0, D1, DC, RESET, and CS (respectively).The code to get text on the display is listed below. I sifted through the hp_display code and didn't see a SSD1322 constructor to un-comment.My question: how do I implement the constructor into the hp_diplay code?#include <U8g2lib.h>U8G2_SSD1322_NHD_256X64_1_4W_SW_SPI u8g2(U8G2_R0, 13, 11, 10, 8, 7);void setup() {u8g2.begin();}void loop() {u8g2.firstPage();do {u8g2.setFont(u8g2_font_6x10_tr);u8g2.drawStr(10, 32, "Hello World");} while (u8g2.nextPage());while (true);}

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2025, 12:35:49 pm
content: I think you need to change the following in fileoled_128x64.cpparound line 144.Comment-out the old line and #define the new SSD1322 constuctor instead.Code:#ifdef OLED_128X64_SSD1309_SW_SPI//#define U8G2_BASE_CLASS U8G2_SSD1309_128X64_NONAME0_1_4W_SW_SPI#define U8G2_BASE_CLASS U8G2_SSD1322_NHD_256X64_1_4W_SW_SPI#else#define U8G2_BASE_CLASS U8G2_SSD1306_128X64_NONAME_1_HW_I2C#endifAnd further down in same file to line 179.Code:#ifdef OLED_128X64_SSD1309_SW_SPI//U8G2_SSD1309_128X64_NONAME0_1_4W_SW_SPI u8g2(U8G2_R0, clock, data, cs, dc, reset);U8G2_SSD1322_NHD_256X64_1_4W_SW_SPI u8g2(U8G2_R0, clock, data, cs, dc, reset);#elseU8G2_SSD1306_128X64_NONAME_1_HW_I2C u8g2(U8G2_R0);#endif

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2025, 01:05:41 pm
content: I wasn't sure if it was simply adding the new constructor. Also, think I was looking in the wrong spot because I was only going to un-comment one line and test it.What about pin assignments? The constructor appears to assign the pins by name, so I'm assuming elsewhere is something that assigns pin numbers.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2025, 01:24:23 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on July 08, 2025, 01:05:41 pmThat's happening on line 91 where the global vars are declared and assigned.Confirm (or change) the values as appropriate for your setup.Code:#ifdef OLED_128X64_SSD1309_SW_SPI#ifndef ARDUINO_NANO// Pro Microconst int clock=21, data=20, cs=18, dc=19, reset=2;#else// Nanoconst int clock=15, data=16, cs=19, dc=18, reset=17;#endif#endif

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2025, 01:44:09 pm
content: Ah perfect, thanks.Messing around with this project/code has allowed me to learn a bit about the Nano and coding. At least now I have an idea of what the constructor is and the format along with basic sections of code.Maybe this weekend I'll have time to wire this to my existing setup.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2025, 03:42:21 am
content: One odd thing I saw yesterday was the OLED was working without Vcc. Currently the pin order is: 1, 2, 4, 5, 14, 15, and 16; GND, Vcc, CLK, DATA, DC, RESET, and CS (all respectively).I wanted to find out how much current the OLED took, so I placed a current meter in series. Just to see what happened, I disconnected Vcc and the display still had "Hello World". I repowered the Nano, and the OLED still had a display. My question regarding this: where is Vcc coming from if pin 2 is disconnected? Also, I tried disconnecting pin 1 (GND) and also had a display - not simultaneously.My other question: The 256x64 board was wired to a Nano that had a mini OLED running a basic "Hello World" program; I didn't want to use this Nano.The other Nano boards had an older interface chip, and a 328PB. I bypassed the USB and used a USBasp to program the board. It took a bit to figure out how to program the 328PB and other factors, but I got it.For whatever reason, when I load the regular frequency counter code, the display is blank and guessing I need to un-comment something else (see below on what I changed). When I ran a test code (see far below) with the same Nano, same wiring, etc... it displayed 'Hello World'.updated: setmap to fix the flat '3'updated: const int clock=13, data=11, cs=10, dc=8, reset=7;updated: #define U8G2_BASE_CLASS U8G2_SSD1322_NHD_256X64_1_4W_SW_SPI#include <U8g2lib.h>U8G2_SSD1322_NHD_256X64_1_4W_SW_SPI u8g2(U8G2_R0, 13, 11, 10, 8, 7);void setup() {u8g2.begin();}void loop() {u8g2.firstPage();do {u8g2.setFont(u8g2_font_6x10_tr);u8g2.drawStr(10, 32, "Hello World");} while (u8g2.nextPage());while (true);}

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2025, 01:27:32 am
content: I've been tinkering with the code, but I haven't got this OLED to work with the counter. It works fine with the basic 'Hello World' code I made (see my previous message).Do I need to change any other lines besides these three?:updated: setmap to fix the flat '3'updated: const int clock=13, data=11, cs=10, dc=8, reset=7;updated: #define U8G2_BASE_CLASS U8G2_SSD1322_NHD_256X64_1_4W_SW_SPI

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2025, 09:55:50 pm
content: Unfortunately I haven't had luck trying to get the OLED to work.It works fine with my short test 'hello world' program, and, using the same constructors in the hp_display code, the OLED doesn't work.I tried replacing all references for the font to u8g2_font_6x10_tr (the one used in 'hello world'), but that didn't work either.Not sure what else to uncomment/add.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 11:02:43 pm
content: I realized a slight error and that I was using D11 and D13 as inputs from the counter and also in the constructor as outputs. Thinking this was the issue, I changed the constructor and wiring to avoid such conflicts.Unfortunately the DIYTZT OLED is still blank when using the hp_display code. It works fine with a simple "Hello World'" program.I've looked at all the code trying to look for anything obvious, un-commented other stuff, tinkered, etc... and haven't been successful, so I'm thinking the 264x64 is incompatible with the hp_display code. My assumption is that the custom (?) font (I'm assuming it's custom font since there is a font file) is the culprit.In the end, I'm probably done with trying and will just use the ghosting LCD.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2025, 08:48:45 pm
content: Just to update and somewhat close the thread.I gave up on the OLED after many failed attempts to get it working. As mentioned, it works fine with a simple 'Hello World' program, but fails to display the information from the counter.I've hard wired the original display that had ghosting and will close out this project for the most part.One question though: I have the 20x4 HD44780 display working fine (as stated above). I also connected the tiny 0.96" display to the A4 and A5 (also 3.3v and GND). When I comment the HD44780 define line and uncomment the I2C (along with setting it to 0x3c address) and OLED 128x64, the 0.96" lines, the display works fine. When I comment the two 0.96" related lines and uncomment the HD44780, the larger display works fine.I swear at one point I had both working simultaneously, however, when I uncomment both, neither one works.Does a reason exist both aren't working simultaneously (keep in mind the 0.96" is on the Ax lines and the larger display is on the Dx lines as previously instructed)?