Ebay global shipping - Pitney Bowes scam? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 03:54:39 pm
content: I'm just trying to figure out how to get a VAT invoice from eBay for things bought from the USA.When I buy from the USA, eBay global shipping pays the tax for me, apparently.So: Why can't I get an invoice out of them so I can reclaim the tax as part of my business? I've searched everywhere but all I can find is a bunch of people complaining about the same thing.I suspect the truth is this:1) eBay sends it to themselves (in Ireland) and pays import tax.2) They send it on to me, no VAT payments change hands because it's all internal to Europe.3) eBay Irelandreclaims the VAT- they're a business, right?Result: Massive profit (and ripoff of eBay buyers).

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 04:11:56 pm
content: The separate Pitney Bowes PayPal transaction has an 'Invoice ID' on it.QuoteEdit:This is what PB say:QuoteSounds like they don't fully understand VAT. Why not send a formal complaint into Irish Revenue or HMRC, the VAT man takes not getting his (correct) cut very seriously.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 05:46:15 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on February 15, 2018, 04:11:56 pmSeems more and more like their Irish company is reclaiming all that VAT for themselves. The whole "we handle the taxes for you" thing is just a front.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 07:21:47 pm
content: I have started to use An Post's AddressPal to reship from the USA. It is cheaper and and faster. I have also not been charged any VAT on my 3 orders, so far...They the fact that they issue an 'Invoice ID' via Pal, is interesting. Invoices have a number of legal requirements, I'll have a dig into them.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 07:26:45 pm
content: Phone HMRC up and ask. They have a right shit fit if people are pocketing tax or not complying with VAT regs. I think there is a form you can fill in that absolves you from it. There used to be about 20 years ago.I don’t buy anything on company expenses from amazon and eBay any more. Total nightmare.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 07:39:07 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on February 15, 2018, 04:11:56 pmI'm not a lawyer nor anything remotely resembling it, but that is illegal. An invoicewith a clear statement of the VAT paidis mandatory no matter you are a business or a consumer.Even if they are doing a manoeuvre like buying it from an American and reselling it to you in Europe there is a VAT paid and they can't just pocket it. They must pay VAT at customs. Claiming it themselves? Good luck with that. In theory it's just not possible.

author: TopLoser
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 07:47:48 pm
content: I’m keeping quiet this time. Everybody seems to know what’s going on but HMRC don’t want to know.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 08:08:43 pm
content: FWIW I am in the same boat, and have been for a few years since this global shipping thing started. Typically the seller offers no other method of international shipping, which for them is a reasonable scenario. Quite what happens to the VAT is beyond me.I’ve heard the argument that it’s for personal sales only, but every other international shipper seems to be able to deal with it.Don’t misunderstand me, the treatment of VAT and its collection varies hugely between states, so it’s not trivial to set it up correctly.On a side note, the quality of the shipping logistics itself stinks, you item takes a long time to arrive by modern logistics standards, and seemingly your items sit in Erlanger Kentucky for days on end. On one occasion I’ve had a shipment returned to sender before it even got out of the US, and on another occasion I received the wrong item after it was re-packed by Shitney-Bowes, one of the “services” they offer sellers.It’s a badly thought out, and half baked service.So I’m sorry, in short, I don’t have a solution for reclaiming the VAT.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 08:37:35 pm
content: Global shipping is a massively fucking stupid idea. Too many hands in the process = turd.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 09:04:06 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on February 15, 2018, 04:11:56 pmThis is a fraud, since when can Ebay dictate national vat/customs decisions and procedures? Boycott eBay its a fraud company!https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Archive/I-have-been-charged-18-from-pitney-Bowes-inc/td-p/628337/page/7?profile.language=en-gb

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 09:28:40 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 15, 2018, 09:24:46 pmConsumer or business, anyone selling you anything must give you a proper invoice.Right, it's stupid to ask for an invoice when buying a newspaper, but for everything worth more than some pounds or euros the invoice is mandatory.In Spain they have been fining pubs that didn't gave patrons a ticket with the mandatory information printed.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 09:41:34 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 15, 2018, 09:24:46 pmIt's actually nonsense what the Ts&Cs state. Who stated the items were being re-sold? For TE, my use case and about 90% of my eBay spend over the years, typically it's for company lab use. I have no intention of re-selling.As I already mentioned earlier, typically sellers, quite understandably, offer Global Shipping Program because it's a single international shipping method and single process rather than having to support several. I can state from my own experience as an international shipper myself, averaging about 2k international shipments per annum for the past seven years, trying to support multiple shipping methods is a big overhead, it's far simpler to have a single streamlined system. I don't use the GSP as I don't sell my products on eBay, I deal directly with my logistics company.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 10:00:12 pm
content: I don't think that Pitney Bowes can technically providea validVAT invoice for business to begin with. If you are business, and goods are imported in EU country other that your own and clearance done on seller's behalf, then you should provide your VAT number at purchase and not charged any VAT to begin with. If I provide such invoice with VAT included but imported somewhere other than Latvia, Latvian tax agency would say me to fuck off. Dunno if this can fly in other EU countries, but normally you are not supposed to be charged with VAT in other EU country and then be able to claim it back in your own country. For this to work, I guess Pitney Bowes would need to buy goods from the seller, then sell to you with their VAT number and 0% VAT.

author: TopLoser
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 10:07:19 pm
content: Not quite correct when UK buyers import stuff from the US for example. Even a business has to pay the assessed VAT to Parcelforce/Royal Mail/Fedex/UPS to be able to have the item delivered to them, but they obtain a VAT invoice from Parcelforce/Royal Mail/Fedex/UPS and can then claim that VAT back.Pitney Bowes don’t/won’t/can’t provide a similar invoice.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 10:15:05 pm
content: Quote from: TopLoser on February 15, 2018, 10:07:19 pmYes, exactly. I pay VAT to post or customs broker in Latvia and then claim it back. Because you pay taxes by your own or through customs broker in your country.Your own EORI number is used for import.In case of Pitney Bowes it's completely different. It's getting imported somewhere else in EU in bulk and nothing can be claimed back.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 10:47:20 pm
content: For example, look at mouser. If you are business, goods are imported by their representative in France and sold to your VAT number with zero VAT and with using VAT number of their representative EDIT: particularly mouser subsidiary in EUhttp://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/viesquer.do?ms=FR&vat=27512466913. If you did not provide VAT during your purchase, you'll be charged VAT. You'll get VAT invoice as well but are not supposed to claim that VAT back. At least it's not going to fly with Latvian tax agency.In case of GSP it's even more complicated. Because goods are: 1. imported in bulk, 2. on your, not seller's behalf. 3. in different country.And then:1) To claim VAT paid back, point 1 and 3 is not valid, it must be imported in your country using your EORI. EDIT: probably it could be done by customs broker in other EU country where import is made with using your EORI but it's not applicable here and not possible with bulk import.2) To not be charged VAT to begin with, then it should have been done on sellers behalf and purchase made using VAT number of yours and VAT of sellers rep in EU.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 11:09:41 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on February 15, 2018, 07:39:07 pmNo it's not. You are not paying to EU company. Therefore no VAT in the invoice. You pay for all expenses (including VAT which will be paid) to get your goods cleared at customs, that does not mean they technically can or are obliged provide a VAT invoice to you.

author: TopLoser
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 11:48:41 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 15, 2018, 11:09:41 pmFair point, sounds like triangulation is coming into play now

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 11:57:31 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 15, 2018, 11:09:41 pma) This is true, but it also gives them a loophole to claim that VAT backthemselves.b) There's a European VAT registry, which, if you meet the conditions, allows you to reclaim VAT on goods purchsed from other European countries. I know this because I'm on it, I can buy stuff from Germany and they give me a VAT invoice. Pitney-bowes is a European company, they're obliged to give me a VAT invoice if I'm on the registry.https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/vat-customs/check-number-vies/index_en.htmQuote from: wraper on February 15, 2018, 11:09:41 pmThe scam is that they get to reclaim all the VAT for themselves - free money!(and that properly registered buyerscan'treclaim it, because they don't receive a real invoice)Quote from: wraper on February 15, 2018, 11:09:41 pmWrong. All they have to do is ask me for my European VAT number (which is the same as my Spanish VAT number, but listed in the European VAT registry).

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 11:57:57 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 15, 2018, 08:37:35 pmNot if you're E-bay, they collect a Listing Fee, a percentage of the sales price, then the PayPal fees, currency exchange fee and percentage of that and now; a large share of the shipping costs.Quote from: bd139 on February 15, 2018, 08:37:35 pmAll of the hands belong to E-bay/Pay Pal. Go look up their yearly profit. They just continuing to find new ways to stick it to their users.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 12:07:42 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on February 15, 2018, 11:57:57 pmAndtake two or three times as long to deliver anything.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 12:38:19 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 15, 2018, 11:57:31 pmThey cannot because they don't own the goods. If they try, they'll get a slap on their hands very fast.QuoteNo it is not, probably they have a subsidiary in EU but it's not a company you deal with. Again they don't sell the goods to you. The only company that can provide an invoice for customs clearance with VAT paid for goods they don't own is Customs broker in EU which you should deal with directly, not through overseas company. But to do so, customs clearance must be done with your EORI number, not in bulk.QuoteDunno how something like this can fly with your tax agency. For me it works only in the way that I provide my VAT number and charged zero VAT in other EU countries. AFAIK there are certain goods for which it works otherwise and VAT is paid/reclaimed in different EU countries. But that is not a general case and is very prone for VAT fraud schemes.QuoteThey can ask it from you 10 times. But as you pay to overseas company, VAT number is meaningless.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 02:12:03 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 16, 2018, 12:07:42 amThat's because E-bay now wants all US sellers to send all of their items to an address in E-bay Kentucky. They then gather everything and put it into large shipping containers and ship them as bulk cargo (read SLOW and CHEAP) to the buyer's country. Once there, they open them and ship the items to the buyer via that country's mail system. The seller has to pay for the shipping to Kentucky (and the cost is usually charged back to the buyer) and as I understand it, E-bay also directly charges the buyer for the costs of the bulk shipping and the local shipping. The thing for me was that the cost of shipping to Kentucky was nearly as much as it would cost to ship the item to many of the foreign countries. In addition, I know that the selling price will be less because buyers are going to have to pay the E-bay shipping charges and are going to keep that in mind when they bid on an item. Once again E-bay had found a way to make MORE money off of their buyers and sellers. Not only did the buyers pay more and the sellers earn less but shipping now took longer! I used to sell most of my items to people in Europe but I saw a significant drop in the prices when Ebay started this crap and it's one of the main reasons that I no longer bother to sell stuff of E-bay.PS FWIW it's not just the non-US buyers that are getting screwed by Ebay's shipping. The last item that I sold went to North Carolina (about 400 miles). I shipped it via Fed-Ex via E-bay shipping. Well E-bay now has an "arrangement" with FedEx whereby FedEx delivered the package to North Carolina but then turned it over to the US Postal Service. In this case, it took three days to get to North Carolina and then six additional days for the USPS to deliver it! Straight Fed EX shipping to North Carolina usually takes three days and straight USPS shipping four to five days, but this method took nine days! The buyer was in a hurry to get the item and they were PISSED and left me bad feedback because of the shipping. That was the LAST item that I sold on E-bay. It's just not worth the costs and the headaches.

author: alpher
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 03:49:18 am
content: Quote from: MT on February 15, 2018, 09:04:06 pmIronic, isn't it?

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 07:14:08 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 15, 2018, 11:09:41 pmWhatever you pay must be reflected in an invoice, period.You don't pay to an European company, but you pay local VAT to Customs? You must receive an invoice. If the courier is doing the paperwork for you they must still provide an invoice. Exchanges of money for goods or services are reflected in invoices.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 10:32:11 am
content: Quote from: borjam on February 16, 2018, 07:14:08 amHow do you expect VAT to be present if there is no VAT paid as such at the moment when you pay to Pitney Bowes? It is not a EU company and therefore it cannot state VAT. You pay them for service (where they spend that money later for paying taxes, including paying VAT to the customs) and they have no VAT number to begin with. If they state the VAT in the invoice, IMO it becomes a fraudulent invoice that very moment. Want a proper invoice for customs clearance, pay usual customs broker price for companies (like EUR 50 here). I don't like to be a devil's advocate here, but what is people call fraud - is not. And what they want from Pitney Bowes does not make legal sense in current process how GSP works.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 10:49:26 am
content: GSP should be avoided wherever possible. They have been known to destroy items they think might be hazardous ( like nixie and vacuum tubes) with no enquiries or recourse.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 10:51:01 am
content: Its obvious your tax office is no better than those 2nd world developing countries tax offices, everything has it's price ...simply everything there is bribe-able... err ... I mean willingly to stay ignorance.As I'm aware, Pitney Bowes in developing countries, example like mine, is well known for specialization in lobbying government agencies, its roots back then when they had a really-really close relationship with "procurement dept" for government, especially at gov's Post Offices all over the world, don't need to be a genius to imagine what was happened behind the scene there.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 11:54:43 am
content: Well this thread certainly absolves me of any guilt for nicking discarded Sun kit out of their skip in early 00's

author: TopLoser
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 01:57:52 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 15, 2018, 11:09:41 pmOk... so if PB (non EU company and hence paying VAT on your behalf to get stuff through customs) somehow manages to evade paying that VAT (by misdeclaring a container full of stuff as ‘tractor spares’, for example) or misdeclaring the true value then they get to keep the VAT they collected from you.They’re up to no good however you dress it up.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 02:15:09 pm
content: Quote from: TopLoser on February 16, 2018, 01:57:52 pmI didn't mean that. They pay VAT, but not in a way that buyer can recover it afterwards as all money go through overseas company. As I said, for that to work, they would need either to buy the goods from seller, import in bulk, then resell goods to you as a EU company. Or clearance should be done for your item individually by EU customs broker that works with you directly. Both variants are not worth it when their service is targeted on private buyers, just for the sake of few commercial customers.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 02:27:12 pm
content: PB has a presence in may EU countries, a quick look at the website will give them. It did not take long to track down their Irish VAT number IE6440299O.But the question still arrives as to how they handle the VAT Payment to Customs, they call it 'Import Charges' which in this case is not 23% of the Item or Item + Shipping cost etc. PayPal says the payment was to "Pitney Bowes, Inc" which would imply a US Company. Indeed if it was an EU/Irish company then they should have added additional VAT on the 'Service' they offer.EBay:QuotePayPal SellerQuotePayPal PBQuote

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 06:40:05 pm
content: All of this discussion makes perfectly clear why I as a US seller prefer the GSP. Not because I want PB to make money. Not because I want Ebay to make money. But because I don't want to deal with tax and import laws of a bunch of different countries, with different rules for resellers, personal use, ....Electronics is a hobby for me. I feed that hobby with sales of gear I have found or accumulated. I have no interest in becoming expert in international trade, tax law or accounting.That is not a knock on any country or group of countries. Here in the US we have plenty of our own laws and regulations, some of which make sense only to lawyers. But my partial understanding of that one system is more than enough for me.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 07:10:38 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 17, 2018, 06:40:05 pmThat problem is usually taken care of by the buyer. Just send it away. Either the item arrives without having a ransom on it (and a happy buyer) or the customs/post office will contact the buyer and demand ransom money. The eBay global shipping is the odd method.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 08:04:02 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 17, 2018, 06:40:05 pmPrecisely, I completely understand why sellers like GSP.I will add though that commercial buyers in the EU (who will mostly be VAT registered) will be paying your prices at ~20% higher than you receive, and therefore you need to be aware that you are competing against local EU pricing, and sellers who use more traditional shipping. Essentially you are pricing yourself out of the market to some degree.Ebay sellers who choose to go directly through couriers like Fedex, UPS, DHL etc rather than GSP, enjoy the benefit that those couriers present proper VAT invoices, and so buyers can reclaim that ~20% tax in their returns.The crucial question is why is it that Fedex, UPS, DHL, even USPS, can provide, directly or directly VAT invoices, but Shitney-Bowels cannot.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 08:23:07 pm
content: Quote from: glarsson on February 17, 2018, 07:10:38 pmYeah? Other than for cheap items, some buyers are surprised they are hit with taxes or want fake value declared. If you ship by anything but post there will be a huge customs broker fee. Others will leave you a negative feedback if you declare fake value. And it depends on each country what will fly through the customs. Not to say other issues like slow shipping, unhappy buyers, scammers, etc...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 08:25:30 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on February 17, 2018, 08:04:02 pmAnd be happy to provide paperwork and pay like EUR 50 to customs broker. Often it exceeds the VAT you will reclaim.QuoteBecause look above.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 09:26:17 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 17, 2018, 06:40:05 pmYou do not have to deal with the tax system or laws of any other country.You just declare the value-the other country does the rest.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 10:50:39 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 17, 2018, 09:26:17 pmIn theory yes. In realty, your problems do not end there. You are responsible until product is received. Say, you may receive negative feedback just because buyer did not like experience with customs. Or buyer refuses to pay customs broker fee and VAT.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 11:01:24 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 17, 2018, 08:25:30 pmA) it’s not EUR50, more like Eur20, often much less.B) for TE, the most obvious use case for many of us on this forum, the VAT component is typically several Eur100s, making a <Eur20 admin charge dwindle into insignificance.C) Errrr... have you see how much Pitney Bowes charge for the privilege of mishandling your goods and pinching the VAT?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 11:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on February 17, 2018, 11:01:24 pmIn Latvia For private person it can be free if you deal with customs directly through their website. Company can do only through customs broker and customs broker charge companies 2x as much than private person = around EUR 50.QuoteThen don't use GSP for such goods = don't buy at all in most cases. If you want to use service not intended for companies -> your problems.QuoteThey don't pinch VAT, although I'm sure they optimize their taxes. They won't modify their procedure just to make a few people from non target audience happy. I'll say it again, it's not possible to make customs clearance process that is both streamlined and suitable for companies at the same time.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 12:46:18 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on February 17, 2018, 11:01:24 pmYou can select any country you like and see Fedex fees here:http://www.fedex.com/ancillary/go/service/?pt=clSeems the UK is 40EUR and on the low end of their worldwide pricing. One of the many problems with online buying (ebay included) is that sellers are either not clear which courier they intend to use, or just outright misrepresent the postal method they are using (advertise post, send by courier).

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 12:46:59 am
content: The number of replies telling me either I am wrong, or I am right, or the even though I am wrong I am effectively right confirms my opinion.My experience is that for EU countries all I have to do is declare a value. But some confusion about the value. If I sold below what someone thinks is the market price what is the value? Is the value sales price less fees? Who is in the EU today? What is this week US export form.Quite aside from the legal issues international shipping with the major carriers is absurdly expensive. Makes GSP look cheap. There are much lower cost alternatives, but they require much more interaction and compete with GSP for slowness.As I said I sell just to support my hobby. I already resent the effort to take a bunch of pictures and fill out eBay's sales forms. So it doesn't take much to stop me. It would take very little to make me check the domestic sales only box and not deal even with GSP.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 01:16:28 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 18, 2018, 12:46:59 amThere should be no confusion about the price - it is simply the sale price that the buyer pays, excluding shipping ( ship cost gets added to taxable value at the destination, so important this is not included as it will effectively get doubled). AFAIK it is no different from the US to any country, US or elsewhereThis is in the context of shipping direct via post or courier - GSP may be different - I have no experience, maybe actually more complicated if they distinguish between EU and elsewhere?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 02:47:38 am
content: While the price charged seems simple and the right answer there are many jurisdictions who do not treated it this way. Why? Because all over the world people have set up sweetheart transactions to avoid taxes. I will sell you the Eifel tower for one Euro. Later you choose to sell me Neuschwanstein for one euro. Establishing the value of each. Thence the concept of fair market value. Which is equally susceptible to distortion.

author: justanothercanuck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 05:05:39 am
content: I think I've posted on one of these ebay shipping threads before...Anyways... its been known for a while that they're crap. Plus, ebay's system of "only verified marketplace sellers can post more than one ad" prohibits new people from making a business on there, so I tend to avoid them unless I can't find what I need anywhere else (and sell my unneeded stuff on craigslist or kijiji).https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ebay+global+shipping+program+pitney+bowes

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 10:28:46 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 18, 2018, 02:47:38 amThat is not your problem as a seller

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 10:41:53 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 17, 2018, 11:40:19 pm“Then don’t use GSP” - it’s frequently the only choice offered by sellers.“they optimize their taxes” - you mean they offset someone else’s VAT payment against theirs? If so, that is definitely something HMRC should be looking at, I’d love to be able to do that fiddle!“Few people” - there are tens of millions of VAT registered entities.“It’s not posssible” - and yet other shippers can?Look, I am not arguing it’s not convenient for sellers, it most certainly is. And I’m not arguing that some retail customers may find it convenient, notwithstanding PB’s glacially slow and low quality logistics.I am just trying to make sellers aware that in only offering GSP, particularly for high value items, you are automatically making your items significantly less competitive for buyers who are EU VAT registered entities (i.e., companies from one man bands and up) as they cannot reclaim the VAT which is around 20%.If you trade in higher value items like TE for example, I would imagine that most of your purchasers will be business customers, and in the EU that means they’ll be VAT registered.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 11:45:47 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on February 18, 2018, 10:41:53 amNo I don't. Don't put words in my mouth.QuoteYeah, and absolute majority don't care buying on ebay, especially buy something expensive using GSP. Don't assume that every company needs used T&M equipment which is scarcely available in EU.QuoteIf you dare to care reading what I wrote previously multiple times, there is an answer why. Including this very sentence of mine which you cut off second part from.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 11:59:58 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on February 18, 2018, 10:41:53 amWill you make your process 5x more complicated to get 5% more customers? Where additional expenses will eat all of additional income and likely even much more.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 12:26:51 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 18, 2018, 11:45:47 amI posed it as a question, I didn’t put words into your mouth, I asked if that was what you were saying, and you denied it as is your right, it’s just a misunderstanding. You yourself stated “I’m sure they optimize their taxes”, why would you make such a comment if you yourself weren’t questioning the legitimacy of the transaction? That is why I asked if that was what you were saying. Perhaps we will never know now.Anyway, look, wraper, I’m honestly not here to argue with you, I am merely putting forward how I, and I am sure many others who are VAT registered in the EU, view the PB set up.In particular I’m trying to let sellers know that they are at a competitive disadvantage by only offering GSP to EU businesses. If that is one of their target markets, I’d imagine they’d like to know about that. Certainly if they are offering 4 or 5 figure TE, for example, where businesses are a key target market, I would imagine that could be quite enlightening: most sellers want to maximise their sales after all.You are very welcome to your opinions of it and I am very glad it’s working out for you, but please understand that GSP is not working out so well for some others, buyers and sellers alike.I hope that makes sense, can we be friends now?QuoteFor high ticket items such as TE, yes. You may not have read the whole thread, or know my situation, but I make several thousand international shipments each year, as a one man band, and exactly as you say, you want to minimise complexity. I am pretty sure I already addressed that point. As such I only use Fedex for international shipments, except to Brazil and Russia where I use standard signed for postal services. Fedex deals with the taxes for me, except inside the EU where for businesses I have to manually register VAT numbers and not charge VAT. Except for the UK where I do charge VAT to businesses.... yes, it is already over-complicated, yes I agree you want to minimise complexity, but if I am to increase my sales figures by 20% by offering an alternate shipping method I may well consider it. That is why I am trying to let sellers understand the potential implications of GSP to their bottom line.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 12:58:31 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on February 18, 2018, 12:26:51 pmAlmost any large company optimize their taxes. That does not mean it's illegal. It means they do things like paying taxes on their profits offshore and similar. Say, apple barely pays any taxes compared to some mom and pop store.QuoteI understand it very well, I have VAT registered business myself. I'm not a fan of Pitney Bowes, I'm just saying there are some good reasons why then don't provide you an invoice which you can use to claim your VAT back. While others are yelling "fraud" without ever trying to understand how things work.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 03:07:57 pm
content: Back to the original topic.I emailed PB asking for a 'copy of the invoice' for the Invoice ID quoted by PayPal. On I got a reply that they will send me one with just the Duty and VAT paid, but they had to retrieve it first. I'll see what arrives in the next few days.