Used ~90's Universal Counters / Timers dilemma - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Haatveit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2018, 03:55:02 am
content: My first post here on the forums after years of lurking, so first off, greetings from the Norwegian countryside!As the title suggests, I'm basically stuck in analysis paralysis land, looking for an affordable (thus, old) Universal Timer / Counter in the ~300$ range (+/- some arbitrary amount based on how I feel that particular day). I've narrowed it down to a few comparable choices, but although I've tried to find information about these devices and I've had a skim through all of their manuals, I'm still struggling to find information about particular quirks or problems from people who actually have used these things in the real world. So figured I'd try here.Aftermanyhours of digging through eBay, I've found these attractive ~90's pieces of gear as my candidates (generic links):HP 5315B(the older 80's one)HP 5316A/B(Can't really tell what the difference is other than their age)Racal-Dana 1992 / 1991Philips / Fluke PM666x(I like the analog sensitivity control on the 6665)Philips PM667x(These are usuallyquiteexpensive)At first I was pretty much just looking for old HP gear, because I like it in a retro sense and also old HP gear has never disappointed me thus far... But then I noticed there were a lot of competition in that ~100MHz, ~1GHz Opt. market. They all seem so similar, and they all seem to have been very good instruments at the time. It seems you can find a working unit of either of these models for anything between ~150$ all the way up to 1k++, depending on the condition and the options (and the hopefulness of the seller). Plus the inevitably monstrous shipping cost to Norway of course... Finding used test gear in my country is essentially completely impossible, so I have no choice other than to accept another 100$ or so (AND import duties!!) on top of the unit prices.I don't have any particularly strict requirements in terms of features - I'm not looking for one to solve a specific problem right now, I just frequently end up wanting something more reliable than my HP54600B for frequency measurements (yeah, I know, wrong tool), and also I really like the timer and totalizer aspect of these "universal" devices. And also I just like old test gear, I think you guys know the feeling, judging by the popularity of the Test Equipment Anonymous thread...One feature that seems to be unpredictably absent or present among them is phase measurements between A & B, in degrees. It's not exactly rocket science to calculate that based on timing and frequency, which can be done on all of them, but it's a great little feature. It seems to only be present on the older models, with the exception of the newer Racal-Dana having it as well. I like the opt, but I'm not sure it's critical. Maybe the PM6666, HP5316A/B etc can do it as well, but I can't find references to it in the manuals or on the front panel labels.For what it's worth, this is all for personal hobby projects. I'm usually not into high frequency stuff, so although the 3rd channel 1GHz++ option that can be found on all of these is tantalizing, and it's usually a great option for the extra cost, I don't think it's super critical. But then again I don't know what I might end up doing in the future. I'm just slowly building up my home lab. I occasionally do electronics repair and such, so having extra features that I might not find immediately useful, often turns out to .. well, be useful!So basically I have no freaking idea what to go for. So please, if anyone has personal stories or anecdotes or use cases / failure cases of any of these units, or just opinions in general on how they compare, please share!

author: Vgkid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2018, 04:32:29 am
content: Also look into the hp 5335 , they are very good.

author: awallin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2018, 04:53:06 am
content: You could DIY quite a lot with a combination of a TICC and PICDIV, if you're willing to do programming and testing etc.https://www.tapr.org/kits_ticc.htmlhttp://www.leapsecond.com/pic/picdiv.htmnot sure if someone made a GUI/enclosure for the TICC yet..

author: kj7e
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2018, 05:53:15 am
content: You can find nice 5316B's with 1GHz channel C, and even sometimes with the High Stability oven for just a few $ more than your target price. I've had a few of them, really nice counters. If you don't need more than 120MHz, look for Option 004 (High Stability oven).

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2018, 01:27:29 pm
content: Sinked 87$ into a HP5334Awith a burnt resistor in channel A frontend and the need to set to european 230V, was well worth its money.

author: Harb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2018, 01:35:00 pm
content: I would think about locking whatever you get to a 10Mhz standard......they are pretty cheap these days and it may spruce up your cheaper/older instrument.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2018, 01:56:51 pm
content: I would be aware of some of these instruments' well known failure modes.> Racal-Dana 1992 / 1991These have the failing tact switches. If you get one without testing every button, expect it to require surgery to fix or replace the switches.Some of the counters also had NiCad battery options, beware of those leaking.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2018, 04:04:55 pm
content: The HP5315A/B, HP5316A/B, and Racal-Dana 1991/1992 are all fully documented which is nice.Phase measurement is not common. The Racal-Dana 1991/1992 does it but do not count on fast response or high precision; a DSO would probably be better for this but I cannot say about the higher end HP counters.These are all reciprocal counters which deliver a constant number of digits per second. The HPs use a 10MHz clock for 100 nanosecond single shot resolution but the Racal-Dana 1991/1992 also does interpolation so it has a single shot resolution of 1 nanosecond yielding 2 more digits of resolution per second.I got my HP5315A for like $50 and my Racal-Dana 1992 for like $90 which needed to have its pushbutton switches cleaned but I have an advantage being in the US so pricing and availability are excellent for these old instruments.The HP5315A/B and HP5316A/B are a little faster to use than the Racal-Dana 1991/1992. The later are exclusively pushbutton controlled while the HP5315A/B and HP5316A/B use potentiometers for trigger levels and support either level or sensitivity. If I were designing a counter, I would emulate how the HP5315A/B and HP5316A/B level/sensitivity controls work but add the automatic level mode from the Racal-Dana 1991/1992 or better. (1)The HP5315A/B or HP5316A/B are my first recommendation for a low cost general purpose universal timer/counter.(1) Better means I would copy the peak-to-peak triggering capability of early Tektronix oscilloscopes.

author: Haatveit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2018, 08:57:01 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 05, 2018, 04:04:55 pmThanks, this is very good info!Yeah I can probably just as well do phase measurement on my oscilloscope, but it's not going to be spectacularly accurate either - I only have a HP 54600B, so, 100Mhz with abysmal sample rate. A little better if it's a repetitive signal I guess. But I'm on the hunt for a better scope as well so that may well be the better solution for phase measurement. Especially if it's a 4ch scope and I don't have to sacrifice my entire oscope just to do the phase measure!I also love the HP 5315A/5316B interface, potentiometers are great as opposed to a bucketload of buttons do achieve the same thing. They are usually quiet expensive though, but, it might just be worth it I guess. Relatively good parts availability and documentation.Quote from: helius on June 05, 2018, 01:56:51 pmYeah I've read about the buttons. But it seems quite fixable, even if a little hacky. People have been able to retrofit tactile metal dome switches with the original keycaps.Quote from: Harb on June 05, 2018, 01:35:00 pmYeah I think I'll have to get into a GPSDO of some sort, and a distribution amplifier. Cheap Chinesium ones are tolerable price-wise, and I'm thinking they might be "good enough" for me. A little hard to find peoples experiences with them though. Talking aboutunits like these.I highly doubt their claim of an actual Trimple OCXO inside there, but, if it's GPS disciplined, a clone might just work out.Quote from: Vgkid on June 05, 2018, 04:32:29 amThere's a few awesomely optioned-out ones on eBay. But these things are enormous! If my lab was a little more permanent, and I didn't frequently have to swap gear on the desk to use it, I might have considered one of these. But yeah, right now, they are just too huge and heavy to be practical for me. I'm sure once my gear addiction takes hold I'll end up with one eventually.....

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2018, 11:47:25 pm
content: I have an old HP5328A that has two channels that you can use to make a time interval calculation (basically the time between two events). /Seems like you could use this to calculate the phase. It has GPIB. You could get a DMM plugin and a higher frequency plugin as well. People were letting these go for $50 or so on eBay several years ago. Not a bad counter for it's age. The other one I have is a 5342A which is basically a single channel but good for higher frequencies.

author: Haatveit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 02:35:25 pm
content: I just got an offer for a 5316B with Opt 03 and 04, so that's with the 1.3GHz option AND an OCXO. Sadly it ends up over 550$ after shipping and import duties.Seems extremely high for what it is. I mean it's a nice counter with nice options, but yeah... Seems a little steep?

author: kj7e
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 02:47:26 pm
content: Is that $550 us dollars? If so, that's very much on the high end. I would expect to find one with Options 003+004 in very good condition for less than $200 (sale price, not including shipping or other taxes). $500 puts you in the 53131A range.Here is a link to one of the 5316B's I sold recently for comparison;https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-5316B-Universal-Counter-Opt-003-1GHz-004-High-Stability-OCXO-calibrated-/142728035113I have a factory HP manual sitting on my self for the 5316B if you or any one else needs.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 02:50:25 pm
content: Quote from: Haatveit on June 05, 2018, 03:55:02 amHei!QuoteAs a hobbyist myself I have one of these and like it. Although I think I have a 1999 model. You really need to see what comes up in the auctions; sometimes these go cheap. And very importantly it is small enough it is always on my desk in a stack with the PSU, signal generator etc.

author: Haatveit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 07:11:35 pm
content: Quote from: kj7e on June 07, 2018, 02:47:26 pmThat's actually exactly what I wrote to the seller as well. And yeah, that's 550$ USD. I told them I might as well get a modern counter at that price...I see a lot of people talking about these amazing pieces of retro gear they get on eBay, but I seem to have bad luck. Most things end up costing a lot, or being too sketchy to risk it (I saw some 5316B's from Israel with good options, but they looked like they had been dragged behind a truck in the mud for 50 miles, and were sold "as-is").Quote from: NivagSwerdna on June 07, 2018, 02:50:25 pmI actually found a nice (looks mint condition) 1992 for ~195 GBP, plus 60 shipping. Tempting, they seem feature packed for the size and price. But I really would like to get a HP 5315B/5316B if I can find one without getting completely flogged

author: kj7e
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 07:23:13 pm
content: Here is one, I've bought from these guys before;https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-5316B-Universal-Counter/292298171727?epid=1128321787&hash=item440e54254f:g:yvMAAOSw-olZ52KjYou can upgrade the time base to a nice oven yourself;https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hp-5316a-teardown-and-frequency-standard/Edit, a few more;https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hewlett-Packard-5316B-Universal-Counter/222969720474?epid=1800493350&hash=item33ea07ee9a:g:gswAAOSwadda8Im-https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-5316B-UNIVERSAL-COUNTER/152776917655?epid=1800493350&hash=item239236c297:g:4vwAAOSwYc5aANSfhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/As-Is-Agilent-HP-5316B-Universal-Counter/201528303874?hash=item2eec05e102:g:lDMAAOSwx-9Wy2PKhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-HP-Keysight-5316B-Universal-Counter/351990201714?hash=item51f4403d72:g:xQoAAOSwOgdYrynV

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 11:02:32 pm
content: Quote from: Haatveit on June 07, 2018, 07:11:35 pmThe Racal-Dana 1991/1992 and HP5315A/B and HP5316A/B are all about the same size but the HP5315A/B uses a plastic clamshell case which is neither square nor flat on top so it is not really stackable unless it is on top. The HP5316A/B has GPIB and a tougher stackable case.The Racal-Dana 1991/1992 is a much higher performance counter than the HP5315A/B and HP5316A/B and roughly equivalent to an HP5334 or HP5335.

author: Haatveit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2018, 12:06:40 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 07, 2018, 11:02:32 pmYeah I've been avoiding the plastic case HP models. I also read somewhere that they apparently have a somewhat different internal design and some of the plastic shell ones are more prone to problems... Either way I didn't want one - much prefer the big ol' metal box design and its stackability.I don't quite see how the Racal 1992 is a *much* higher performance counter though. Looking through the datasheets for them, they fairly close spec-wise. Though I say that assuming that the 5316B (or equivalent 5315B) has the 03 option... But maybe I am missing something? I very well might be!Quote from: kj7e on June 07, 2018, 07:23:13 pmThanks, I've actually looked at all of those before, but none have any options so I wasn't keen on them. Like you say, I could fit my own - but the issue is, again, from Norway, I have to buy EVERYTHING internationally. So that means paying shipping for a handful of different items that I am unlikely to have in my parts bin, probably, so in the end, it gets expensive. This is the unfortunate reality of living in a country where none of this stuff exists. Sure I can buy everything from China and pay no shipping, but who knows what I'll get, if I even get it, 2 months after ordering it... I have nothing to verify the accuracy of a random dented and scratched up OCXO from China, since, well, I have nothing to measure it against. Not right now anyway, eventually I want to get a GPSDO standard and feed everything from that.That's mainly why I am hunting for a unit with the OCXO already onboard. It'll save me probably a lot of money at the end of the day, even if I pay a little more upfront.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2018, 12:39:39 am
content: Quote from: Haatveit on June 08, 2018, 12:06:40 amThe difference is that the HP5315A/B and HP5316A/B have an internal timing resolution of 100 nanoseconds and the Racal-Dana 1991/1992 implements interpolation for an internal timing resolution of 1 nanosecond. In practice what this means is that the Racal-Dana 1991/1992 generates 9 digits of resolution per second and the HP5315A/B and HP5316A/B generate "only* 7 digits per second; if you wanted 9 digits on the HP5315A/B and HP5316A/B, then you would need a 100 second gate time.The HP5334 and HP5335 are interpolating counters also but with 2 nanosecond internal resolution so not quite as good as the Racal-Dana 1991/1992.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2018, 12:50:27 am
content: How about a Tektronix CMC251. They can often be foundon the cheap on eBayand they tend to age well.

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2018, 01:05:03 am
content: Quote from: awallin on June 05, 2018, 04:53:06 amLady Heather v6 supports the TICC. It can monitor two TICCs (4 channels) and configure the main TICC. Heather has a lot of the functionality of Timelab... (can calculate ADEV/HDEV/TDEV/MDEV/MTIE of all 4 channels simultaneously)... but its plots are not as pretty.Besides using a TICC as the main input device, you can also use one as an auxiliary input device with a GPSDO, etc as the main input device.

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2018, 01:17:52 am
content: Quote from: Haatveit on June 05, 2018, 08:57:01 pmActually they do. In fact the whole GPSDO is made by Trimble (there are compatible second-source ones made by Symmetricom). They were built for telecom base stations. The GPSDO is fairly decent.

author: BloodyCactus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2018, 01:51:04 pm
content: I have a '92, its a great machine with A+B inputs, it was my workhorse till I got my fluke PM6690. I had no issues with the buttons on my 92.Its interface is quirky tho with its 'special functions' and how you input them. It still is a great rock solid counter.

author: Haatveit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 10:21:27 pm
content: Quote from: BloodyCactus on June 08, 2018, 01:51:04 pmQuote from: David Hess on June 08, 2018, 12:39:39 amWell, what with the high asking prices for the HPs and so on, I'm pretty much settled on a Racal-Dana 1992 at this point. Messaging some sellers and seeing what I can get my hands on.Thanks a lot for the various input in this thread, it helped a great deal!I also may have impulse-bought a GPSDO last night as well, so, maybe the super high stability built-in options aren't that critical anymore now...

author: kj7e
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 10:54:46 pm
content: Quote from: Haatveit on June 09, 2018, 10:21:27 pmPost some photos inside and out when you get it. Which GPSDO did you settle on?

author: Haatveit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 11:43:53 pm
content: I went withthis Oscilloquartz / uBlox combo. I am basically going into this blind, but from what I could figure out it seems pretty nice. Oscilloquartz seem to make good OCXO's, they're pretty recent date-wise. And the uBlox GPS modules seem pretty spiffy as well. But maybe worse compatibility wise with software like Lady Heather's? Not sure! I'll find out.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 12:09:55 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on June 08, 2018, 12:50:27 amEh, it's a low end direct counter made by Escort, so it's not in the same league as the reciprocal counters being discussed.Some other nice models are the Keithley 775, Keithley 776, and Philips PM6654 (the OP probably wouldn't want that one since it's full rack width).I would not avoid the HP 5315A/B.

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 01:03:38 am
content: Quote from: Haatveit on June 09, 2018, 11:43:53 pmNewer models with the management interface connected to the RS-232 port works well with Heather. It is fairley easy to mod the older ones to connect the management port to the RS-232.

author: Haatveit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 01:12:16 am
content: Quote from: edavid on June 10, 2018, 12:09:55 amFrom my quick look it also seems to be more of a frequency counter, rather than a universal counter / timer. I know the difference is pretty slim in some cases, but a strict freq counter is not hugely useful to me. I really want the low frequency stuff (sub 1hz), and the A / B relative functions.That Philips unit looks great, wish I had the space for rack mount stuff. But it's a pain when I have to lift them around every time I use them...

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 05:19:33 am
content: Quote from: Haatveit on June 10, 2018, 01:12:16 amAh, ok, sorry. Didn’t get that from your O.P.

author: Haatveit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 01:45:07 am
content: Quote from: kj7e on June 09, 2018, 10:54:46 pmWell, it's too dark and I'm too busy geeking out about things so no proper photos of the GPSDO itself until tomorrow. But for now, I'm enjoying things!Oscilloquartz 8663 & uBlox Lea-5T. Seems to work great so far. I don't really have a lot of ways to confirm how it's performing, but hooking it up to my SDG1032X using it's counter functionality, it's sitting at 2PPM out, I'm going to assume that's the function gen being a little out. But it's remarkably stable, over the course of several hours, with quite a change in temperature over the evening, the reading has only changed by about 2ppm - so, it started out being 4ppm out when I powered the Siglent on. I reset the counter a number of times, but it hasn't changed at all after that initial 2ppm drop.Is there any generic GPSDO thread active anywhere? I searched a bit and only found a few old threads that I don't want to awaken from the dead.

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 03:53:36 am
content: The Oscilloquarz 8663 OCXOs are very nice double oven units. They have extremely low temperature sensitivity. They also settle into very low drift after a month or so. The OCXO used the the "ATDC" GPSDOs uses their highest performance version.At one time I was putting 8663's into Tektronix DC5010 counters (at the time you could buy 10 8663's for $100). After a month of power on (the OCXOs had not been powered up for who knows how many years) I set the EFC voltage. The EFC voltage came from the Vref output through a 20 turn pot glued to the case with thermal epoxy. A year later they were still dead-nuts on freq. I also put one in my HP-53132A (using one of Gerry Sweeny's boards). It seems to be drifting will under a milli Hertz per month... some of that is probably the 12 bit DAC used to generate the EFC voltage.

author: Haatveit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 04:05:25 am
content: That's awesome. I guess I should be happy with my choice then. I read a little about the various OCXO's available on these pre-built GPSDO's from China, and out of all of them, the Oscilloquartz seemed really nice. It was like 10$ more, but on a 100$ purchase that didn't really matter much.I can't seem to get much info out of Lady Heather's though, as far as actual timing is concerned... I guess it's down to compatibility for various GPS modules and OCXO's. The listing said he had modified the circuit to allow Lady Heather's to talk to the uBlox module, but not sure if that's got anything to do with it.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 10:09:54 am
content: Quote from: Haatveit on June 09, 2018, 11:43:53 pmhttps://telecomtest.com.au/datasheets/osiclloquartz/star3-4.pdfNice. Welcome to the GPSDO club.

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 10:23:49 pm
content: Quote from: Haatveit on June 27, 2018, 04:05:25 amHeather reports what the device sends and lets you set what the device lets you set. For the Oscilloquartz GPSDOs there is not much in the way of timing measurements. When the maker had the Ublox connected to the serial port, all you got was NMEA position data.