An old subject - high end audio cables - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: deephaven
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 03:28:30 pm
content: Sorry, I couldn't resist this. I just thought I'd see how the high-end audio cable market was doing and discovered it seems to still be alive and well.I invite you to take a look athttp://www.highendcable.co.uk/Nordost%20ODIN%20Home%20page.htmand choose any of the product links. Your eyes will water!

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 03:46:48 pm
content: £3,000 a meter!£15,000 speaker cables!!!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 04:00:36 pm
content: These are top of the range cables from pure silver, the price is a bargain and you will feel the difference!

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 04:13:00 pm
content: Quote from: Alex on June 01, 2011, 04:00:36 pmSnap. You are back in the room.Leave them alone. Everyone is vulnerable to their own myths, misconceptions, irrational fears, obsessions, superstitions, etc.And I don't have a problem as soon as this is not dangerous to others and not paid by me.Is anyone here squeaky clean to throw the first stone? I bet not - psychiatrists and lifestyle experts would have had a field day with you lot!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 04:17:38 pm
content: Check this out, a scientific comparison between plain and the magical ODIN cable! You wont believe your ears!http://www.highendcable.co.uk/Nordost%20ODIN%20Cables%20with%20Bjorn.htmStop making fun of such products just because you can't afford them! :-p

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 04:31:46 pm
content: Scientific arguments are useless.There has been a study published recently that proved that placebo pills help people even when they are told upfront they are receiving a placebo.

author: tekfan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 04:54:34 pm
content: Not exactly cables but close enough:http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htmAnd the response from the inventor himself:QuoteI actually feel sorry (or do I) for the poor people that fall for this kind of junk.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 05:00:56 pm
content: This guy is my hero. All this knowledge and he is wasting his time on audio gear, he should be out there making cold fusion work.

author: Arthur
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 05:55:31 pm
content: Does anyone know when this audiophool cable phenomenon started? Has it been around for decades or is it a recent thing?I'm just wondering, who was the first person to think "Hey I could charge tens of thousands of pounds/dollars for a short piece of cable and people would buy it"?Also for the money that man charges for cable, you would think he could afford to pay someone to knock up a website that isn't a complete pile of shit. If anyone has ever bought one of his cables that is.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 06:06:42 pm
content: ha this is a jokeQuoteQuote from: saturation on June 01, 2011, 03:46:48 pmwith 2 meters, i can afford another girl for a lifetime.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 06:22:51 pm
content: There is some history on Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiophilia#Equipment_concernsAlso, a former McIntosh engineer writes about how the wire madness came about:http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htmQuote from: Arthur on June 01, 2011, 05:55:31 pm

author: Arthur
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 07:50:08 pm
content: Good info, thanks.

author: deephaven
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 08:22:17 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on June 01, 2011, 06:22:51 pmWhat a great article. I like the reference to how a fancy mains cable could improve the quality of light from a table lamp.It's bad enough when they market this expensive speaker wire but it gets worse. Phono (RCA) cables? Mains cables? Digital (SPDIF) cables? I did see some special wooden knobs for sale to go on the controls of your amp to improve its sound. Oh, and running the cables in? I like the way p&p is often free, well if the cables are 20K I would hope they were delivered in a horse-drawn glass and gold carriage!

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 08:54:27 pm
content: Don't forget to put this nice cable on a stand!http://www.audioelevation.co.uk/CartV3/Details.asp?ProductID=432Since sound is vibrations, and walking on the floor also produces vibrations you can't just throw it there, it'll ruin the sound!One more:

author: Flavour Flave
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 09:27:31 pm
content: The Complete Guide to High-End Audio PHooleryPrice: $1999.95, hardcover $2999.95

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 09:54:47 pm
content: Quote from: ndictu on June 01, 2011, 08:54:27 pmI have an idea for a new audiophool product. The breath-stopper. Inhaling and exhaling produces vibrations, and that rules the sound. Just make the listeners stop breathing and the problem is solved. There is a small side effect, but I not necessarily consider that a bad thing.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 10:04:44 pm
content: I didn't realize someone put a book together with all the jargon of audiophoolery. The reviews on Amazon are both frightening and sad, to realize a good number of reviews consider this book factual. You can sample quite a number of pages on this text within Amazon.com.http://www.amazon.com/review/RWJ4DU9Z52BAO/ref=cm_cr_dp_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0964084945&nodeID=283155&tag=&linkCode=#wasThisHelpfulThe book is edited, typeset and designed quite nicely. The author is a good writer too. The lack of sloppiness may give one more faith in the content unless one is certain of their electronics knowledge when cross checking this text.What is sad is that there are facts in the text, intermingled with the fiction, and an unknowing reader may quote some facts to an engineer as a query to confirm the book's other contents, and if getting a nod assume the fiction part is equally true.But I guess if some folks feel strongly the moon landing never happened, there can be those who believe in $30,000 audio cables.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 10:33:19 pm
content: duh cant it be stopped?! i'm sure these people (buyer and seller) dont have any clue what an oscilloscope is.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 10:44:39 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 01, 2011, 10:33:19 pmSame thing as homeopathy ... There are people who believe it so they will buy it, and no matter what counter evidence you give them, they wont listen. And maybe there are people who believe it and sell it, but my guess is it is just businessman without shame that found you can sell a piece of wire (or water/sugar) for many times it price by just calling it the right name.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2011, 11:19:13 pm
content: yea i'm sure a dick extender is alot cheaper than that.

author: stl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2011, 09:14:58 am
content: There are people that ran out of ideas where to spend their money on...

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2011, 10:25:05 am
content: I start smelling the feast of technocratic snobbery.Quote

author: PetrosA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2011, 11:48:48 am
content: There's been a similar scam going on here in the US with devices marketed to save people money on their electric bills. It's basically a couple of capacitors in a box that get wired into the main panel which are supposed to correct power factor and lower your bill. The scammers have gone so far as to get UL listings for their products (reading the actual listing shows that it's only a safety rating, but in most consumers' minds UL labels add credibility to the claim). The product plus installation generally costs about $500-$700. The difficulty in fighting the scammers is that understanding why it won't work is generally beyond the technical education of the average homeowner, as well as many electricians. Add to that using an accredited university name and claiming studies were done proving the effectiveness of the product (The university later discovered this and forced them to stop mentioning their name) and it's very difficult for Joe Homeowner to get to the truth.There's no snobbery in trying to expose this kind of scammer. They are a product of our American style of free market economy which basically allows anyone to sell anything that's not considered harmful by a government agency (and this opinion doesn't have to coincide with scientific reality). Let the buyer beware.

author: Arthur
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2011, 12:05:34 pm
content: Speaking of Power Factor, I would like to see Dave or someone do a blog on it. But that's just me.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2011, 01:21:50 pm
content: Quote from: PetrosA on June 02, 2011, 11:48:48 amIf the goal is to lower the bill rather then save the energy I can easily see a hack that would exploit the details of how specific energy meter works.Especially since every man and his dog were making half-baked electronic meters a decade ago.It would not be difficult tolegallyexploit the inefficiency of the meter if indeed there is one.I know nothing about this story but this possibility crossed my mind when a lot of "cost-effective" energy meters started flooding the market in early 00's.The snobbery is in assuming that someone is lesser human just because they can't use a scope.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2011, 01:35:28 pm
content: Talking about scam that costs money and human lives...Maybe few know that UK company sold explosive detection equipment consisting of a plastic handle with a swinging antenna from a radio, a piece of BNC terminated cable and holder for plastic cards at a price of $40,000 per set.There are no active components in this device (and no passive either) which designers say is good because it makes it cheap to run.Plastic cards are just that - piece of plastic with explosive type written on it and a sticker with a passive anti-theft ID tag (probably from the nearest supermarket.)Looks like New Labour UK became a breeding ground for all sort of scum calling themselves "inventors."http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8471187.stmhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245377/Bomb-detection-firm-director-arrested-fraud-claims-devices-sent-Iraq-useless.html

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2011, 02:26:08 pm
content: http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1229-barnum-underestimated-the-birthrate-of-suckers.htmlMore fodder for Randi:http://www.stereophile.com/writer/119?page=3

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2011, 02:41:23 pm
content: Apparently its sold in many forms:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_651The devices home page:http://www.ade651.co.uk/index.htmlTraining video:The device up close:Looks like a project easy to build from Jameco parts ... the hard part is the product 'literature' ...Quote from: Leo Bodnar on June 02, 2011, 01:35:28 pm

author: the_raptor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2011, 03:10:21 pm
content: From the FAQ for the ADE651.Quote$40,000 is TOO LITTLE to pay for a device that can utilise amp-less current! Think of the possibilities, cities powered by nothing but rubbing a balloon on some felt!P.S. They conflate electrical current and static electricity. Which should set off the BS detector in even those with only a high school knowledge of electricity.P.P.S The bit I like best is that their excuse for when the operator finds nothing is that actually the device is TOO sensitive and can't distinguish between a micro-scopic amount and a bomb. Which precisely would make it absolutely worthless in Iraq/Afghanistan which must have a fine powder of explosives over everything.

author: deephaven
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2011, 09:51:47 pm
content: I've always wondered about these deviceshttp://www.eastmidlandswater.com/Details.asp?ProductID=49Are they more BS or do they actually work?

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2011, 08:00:05 am
content: Bit OT:Some say the do, some say they don't.We had a lime scale remover fitted in our water mains for >20 years that seemed to do nothing at all, still had to clean the taps every few weeks. But it had a pushbutton and a small meter on top that showed it was working, at least according to the manual. When the piping was modernised I cracked the case and found a length of standard 1,5" steel pipe, a lithium battery, a resistor and the meter - not that that surprised me. The unit was fitted by the previous house owner.Now we have one that actually seems to work. It's basically the same as the small one in the link above but a more sophisticated design. The lime doesn't clog up the little sieves (what do you call them in english?) in the taps anymore and I was told it's now easier to clean off too.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2011, 04:21:05 pm
content: Quote from: deephaven on June 02, 2011, 09:51:47 pmMe too. I suspect, if they did work the water company would simply installing them.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2011, 04:35:35 pm
content: Quote from: deephaven on June 02, 2011, 09:51:47 pmThe modern version of an old scam. Decades ago scammers sold simple magnets.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2011, 05:53:29 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on June 03, 2011, 04:35:35 pmNice categorical counter-statement that must obviously be based on experimental research?Can you conclusively prove theydo notwork?I have theoretical physics degree but I'd be hard pressed to analyse the behaviour of colloid and very complex electrolyte flowing through permanent or fluctuating magnetic field especially when chemical reaction is involved. Amount of scale is so minute that I won't be surprised that there issomeeffect.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2011, 06:10:23 pm
content: I know Wikipedia isn't 100% reliable but it seems to suggest there's no evidence to support it.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_water_treatmentAs per my statement above, if it really worked then why don't the water companies use it? Why don't house hold appliances (boilers, kettles, washing machines etc.) have built-in magnetic descaling units?

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2011, 06:32:35 pm
content: No, you explain to me why it is supposed to work.You tell me why a magnetic field permanently separates ions of salts molecules dissolved in water, i.e. why it affects salts that don't exist as salts in the solution any more. You tell me what magic chemical reaction is caused by the magnetic field. Why the separation happens at all, and why it is permanent after the water passes a few centimeter through a magnetic field. And you tell me why the earth magnetic field doesn't have a similar effect. And you tell me why no such effects are, for example observed in power stations where water is used for coolingor even driving the turbines and high magnetic fields exist. Or in any other combination of a magnetic field and water. E.g. why the earth magnetic field doesn't "clean" all oceans. And you show me the serious scientific studies proving why it happens only at home with some magnets on your water pipe.The scam is going on for decades. I first saw it in the 80th. If you want to make me a believer show me the prove.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2011, 06:59:37 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on June 03, 2011, 06:32:35 pmI have not made unbacked unconditional statements. I am past my teens so I expect things in the world to be more complicated then they seem.Let's look at your arguments for the sake of argument.Quote from: BoredAtWork on June 03, 2011, 06:32:35 pmTap water is complicated electrolyte (=conductor.) Conductor moving through magnetic filed causes electric potential to form and subsequently electric current to flow through it.QuoteSeparation of what? Scale is formed by Ca ions forming salts that have very low dissolving threshold. Because Earth's magnetic field is very weak? Why heating water up descales it? Scam?QuoteThere is no magnetic field in turbines.QuoteI have not made the statement that these descalers work. Why do I have to prove it?QuoteI have seen it in 70's. What does it prove? I don't want to make you a believer but I assume that if a grown-up makes a statement then they should either back up with reliable facts or be considered a zealot.

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2011, 07:41:19 pm
content: there has to be some fun to be had out of this

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2011, 08:04:19 pm
content: Quote from: Leo Bodnar on June 03, 2011, 06:59:37 pmTime for theteapot argument: The burden is on you to prove something works, not everyone else to prove it doesn't.And if you don't agree, I claim I can make a device, very similar to the limescale one, that when fitted on piping will turn water into pure molten gold. Wanna buy one?

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2011, 08:26:34 pm
content: Quote from: ndictu on June 03, 2011, 08:04:19 pmOh, really? I don't know if it does and did not say that so how can I prove it does?!I did not know that logical statement NOT A is true by default until someone proves otherwise. Whatever A is.

author: the_raptor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2011, 08:32:13 pm
content: Quote from: Leo Bodnar on June 03, 2011, 08:26:34 pmIt has nothing to do with formal logic. It is a rule of thumb like Occam's Razor.Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2011, 08:54:24 pm
content: Quote from: david77 on June 03, 2011, 08:00:05 amIs the one that you have shaped as round ring , closed on one square box at the ground level ?

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2011, 09:15:17 pm
content: Quote from: the_raptor on June 03, 2011, 08:32:13 pmThank you for agreeing with me!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 03, 2011, 11:13:12 pm
content: Quote from: Leo Bodnar on June 02, 2011, 01:35:28 pmthe man should be hung. But really I marvell at government stupidity, who the hell elected those assholes ?Right I'm off to make a bomb diviner - anyone want to buy it ? - thought not, Suppose i'll have to give the MOD a try

author: Trigger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 03:55:12 am
content: Quote from: deephaven on June 02, 2011, 09:51:47 pmLimescale? I find the claims to be questionable but one could easily replicate the system with a 555 timer and some wire wrapped around a pipe since they give you the frequency.I found a patent on it, but then again that doesn't mean it works.http://www.google.com/patents?id=gigoAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA12&dq=RF+limescale&hl=en&ei=Q7HpTfaVEtGjtgfcsPCXAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=falseHere is a good one along the lines of the OPhttp://www.etsy.com/listing/63220540/electromagnetic-radiationpollutionIf it neutralizes RF waves then I have a new RF jamming system I'd love to sell to the military

author: bartek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 04:29:21 am
content: Quote from: Leo Bodnar on June 03, 2011, 09:15:17 pmTrolling?Quote from: Leo Bodnar on June 03, 2011, 08:26:34 pmAs others have stated the burden of proof is always on the person making the big claim. No one can prove that vampires don't exist, so should you live your life as if they do? If yes, then what about the infinite amount of other claims to be made (unicorns/healing crystals/power wrist bands/purifying magnets etc.)You have to be skeptical or else you will be a sucker! Surely they tought you this during your science degree?

author: bartek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 04:34:31 am
content: I guess you can't blame people for buying into this stuff, its in our nature.Just take a look at the anti-vaccine movement...

author: deephaven
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 08:41:42 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on June 03, 2011, 04:21:05 pmBut what amazes me is that these are large water companies selling these devices, not some bloke on a street corner. If they are making false claims, they should be held responsible.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 09:38:43 am
content: Quote from: bartek on June 04, 2011, 04:29:21 amI can see Leo's point but it doesn't make it right.Paul makes a claim about his product.Pete says it doesn't work because no one's proved it works.Pete might be wrong, just because no one's proved it works, it doesn't mean it doesn't but as Paul wants money for his product, he shoulders the burden of proof.A similar debate occurs between atheists and believers.Atheist: "I don't believe in God because there's no proof God exists! All you have is blind faith God does exist."Believer: "You can't prove that God doesn't exist. All you have is blind faith God doesn't exist."All I can say here is that there's no proof the de-scaler works so you'd have to be an idiot to buy it. I can't say for sure it doesn't work but it seems implausible.

author: deephaven
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 11:30:41 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on June 04, 2011, 09:38:43 amIt ought to possible to set up an experiment to prove whether or not the device works. An experiment to prove the existance or otherwise of God might be a bit more tricky!

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 11:50:03 am
content: Quote from: bartek on June 04, 2011, 04:29:21 amWe have started to descend to personal abuse. As expected though.I thought any claim has to be proven if it is to be considered seriously and promoted to fact status.If medical company says "a drug has no known side effects" without even testing it they will be in jail.If you pass personal opinion as fact then say so. I have no idea if these things work or not but some companies offer full money back no questions asked if you are not happy:http://www.eddy.uk.com/index.htmCharlatans don't normally do that. Please note that their claim is not that this thingy reduces water hardness - it does not, but it reduces scale formation on pipe and other surfaces.I have no idea about these devices and I have never used one. And I have no claims to make.But if somebody here would claim they work I'd ask for proof just as well as I ask someone who claims they don't.So far I have seen only david77 saying they have one and it looks like it reduced scale formation. This is inconclusive but fair.

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 12:47:52 pm
content: Atheist: "I don't believe in God because there's no proof God exists! All you have is blind faith God does exist."Believer: "You can't prove that God doesn't exist. All you have is blind faith God doesn't exist."one thing bible writers were quite fond of psychoactive compounds mainly Psilocybin mushrooms

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 12:59:58 pm
content: I think Leo takes the "Devils Advocate" position on these subjects just to see how many people he can "stir up".VK6ZGO

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 01:36:32 pm
content: Quote from: Leo Bodnar on June 04, 2011, 11:50:03 amThat means nothing.The placebo effect can make people believe lime scale has improved and some people won't bother asking for a refund. There's also the question of whether they honour their promise of a refund.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 05:09:41 pm
content: there are no end of scams and they run for a long time so they must be getting away with no giving any money back for one reason or another.There was a local guy selling magnets that would: cause your car to use less fuel, cause you to use less gas in the house, get rid of limescale in water, I'm surprised he didn't claim heeling powers for it too.When I challenged him I got some so called research which was just random logs of different cars, randomly formatted all differently formatted and basically no technical or scientific detail. He was selling them on behalf of a company who had a website which was run by a company who represented them. In this was the website can make all sorts of bogus claims like it had official recognition (which was and is bollocks) but it was the company that ran the website that said the bollocks not the manufacturer. I don't know what the legal implications and how it affects the manufacturers responsibilities but it was clearly a way of diminishing their responsibility.Just because we have laws and hopefully enforcement it don't follow that there are not scams out there. Gee even most technical specs on serious products these days amount to exaggerated sales pitches

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 05:16:11 pm
content: Quote from: Sionyn on June 04, 2011, 12:47:52 pmwhich bible? the old or new testament?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 05:21:45 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 04, 2011, 05:16:11 pmwell, cmon, just read the bible with an open mind you will soon realize that we were created by and extra-terestrial race (god) as an experiement (that went wrong) probably by playing genetically with the then primitive man (like just out of apehood)Right now I'll sit back and let that can of worms spread like wildfire

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 05:36:04 pm
content: Quote from: Sionyn on June 04, 2011, 12:47:52 pmHey I have good news for you, my God it does exist and I have proofs too.In your next vacations come to find me in Greece , I have an great story to tell you.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 05:39:23 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 04, 2011, 05:16:11 pmHey you are out of topic here !!The subject is about pluming problems

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 05:41:42 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on June 04, 2011, 05:21:45 pmno! its by design! god can made us like angel where all good, or evil where all bad, but we in between. so we are not specialist between the two, good or bad. we are blend of it, and god gave us freedom to choose. thats why some clever dickies sold cable for thousands, and the other stupid dickies bought it.edit: i dont read bible, i read 4th edition, never been "excel" on it.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 05:59:17 pm
content: Quote from: bartek on June 04, 2011, 04:34:31 amI don't care if people buy stuff that doesn't work, because it doesn't affect me.The problem with the anti-vaccine idiots is that 1) they are making a terrible decision about the life of their kid that is not able to defend itself, and 2) the vaccine isn't 100% effective. However when everyone gets vaccinated it creates a "herd immunity". Introducing non-vaccinated kids into kindergartens/schools puts other, vaccinated kids in danger of getting sick, and it's actually happening:http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Jenny_McCarthy_Body_Count/Home.html

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 06:17:07 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 04, 2011, 05:41:42 pmyou mean some religeous nuts and dictators tell us that our choice is to beleiveSorry for going off topic, but really it's not that off topic and I get bored with the same old stuff

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 07:27:42 pm
content: Yes I know this thread has become horribly off topic but it's no surprise a discussion about audipoolerly invokes one about religion.I've not studied the bible or and other religious text much.I remember hearing "God created man in his own image" but I believe it's more likely to be the other way round.Some accuse science of being a religion but this is not the case with good science.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2011, 07:32:42 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on June 04, 2011, 07:27:42 pmEither way is plausibledepends on how daring you are

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2011, 07:33:04 am
content: Quote from: Simon on June 04, 2011, 06:17:07 pmthey are not in any way religious. they've become more evil and they want us to believe whatever they want us to believe.Quote from: Hero999 on June 04, 2011, 07:27:42 pmthats true man is created from very very small fraction of God's image. lover, carer, ruler etc etc. there are 99 God's image/name but i never remember all of them. maybe lust and stupidity are included in them. i'm not sure. and science is to find the provable truth, but as history tells, once scientists believed that atom is the smallest particles but proven wrong. it will be continue like that in the future i suspect. one method scientest lack in proving a theorem, is to prove from history, Moore's Law is an exception.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2011, 11:46:12 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 05, 2011, 07:33:04 amMoore's Law is not a natural law, it is just an observation.If all manufacturers collude in stopping making faster silicon the Law will be "proven" wrong.Similarly, industry does not need revolutionary faster ICs because there is so much flab dragged behind that most folks are not ready for this.Peripherals, interconnects, RAM, EEPROM, RTCs are all dragging their feet since profit and ROE is king.Increase modern computer speed by a factor of 1000 and your average Windows installation will crash every 10 seconds.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2011, 12:05:57 pm
content: Increasing processor speed exponentially doesn't mean everything will become faster as there are many problems which require an exponential increase in processing to solve twice as quickly.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2011, 02:09:18 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 05, 2011, 07:33:04 amand Murphy's Law too. i forgot Murphy's Law.