Should I sign this agreement or not ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Icarus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2013, 09:49:23 pm
content: Hi folks.I'm wondering that, is this a regular white collar enginnering contract or someone try to f*** me ?"d. After Termination. For the period of twelve (12) months immediately following termination of my employment with the Company (for any or no reason, whether voluntary or involuntary), I will not directly or indirectly: (i) Cause any person to leave their employment with the Company; (ii) Solicit any Business Partner; or (iii)act in Any Capacity in or with respect to any Competing Business"It means if i quit or they fire me, I can't work for another company for 12 months.What do you think guys ?

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2013, 09:57:05 pm
content: In New Zealand, this type of overbearing restraint of trade clause is unenforceable, employment court would throw it out, and probably slap the employer with a bill for costs and a fine for trying it on.In other countries, who knows.If it was me, I would cross out the statement.

author: Po6ept
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2013, 10:19:07 pm
content: Translation: If you jump ship, you cannot take anyone else with you, try to take any customers, or go work for the competition.This is standard boilerplate in most US employment contracts these days. IANAL, but this usually means you can't leave and go work for a direct competitor. If they make thermostats, you cannot take their methods and designs and go work for Joe's Thermostat Shack. You can work in the industry, just not for a competitor who sells the same kind of products.Most places that hire you will have something similar in the contract. Of course, they'd have to take you to court to enforce it and they would have to prove damage.

author: cravenhaven
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2013, 10:22:51 pm
content: Last time I came up against a similar condition in my employment contract from my previous employer, they threatened legal action and I sought advice from a solicitor who suggested that the condition could be enforceable. In the end no such action was taken.I suggest you either cross it out as suggested or get legal advice.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2013, 10:44:40 pm
content: It depends a bit on the law but in most cases such a clause is not worth a dime without stating a fine you have to pay. If they don't explicitly state an amount they have to prove in court you caused damages. I had a similar situation but I haven't found a single case in which an engineer was convicted to pay a fine to their former employer. It is usually sales people who get sued succesfully.Either way: ASK A LAWYER who specialises in labour laws. He/she can provide you with information within an hour and its well worth the money. I've found many employers are pretty clueless about the laws so asking a lawyer now gives you a head start in the unfortunate case things go bad later.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2013, 11:04:57 pm
content: If the clause is legally enforceable you should try to avoid it. The clause, if enforceable and enforced, effectively means that you are unemployable for a year in the field you are probably the most knowledgeable. This is bad.Where I live some versions of such clauses are enforceable under some conditions, one being the then ex employer needs to pay a compensation. Which regularly means you meet your ex employer in front of a judge because you can't agree on the amount of compensation. It is a PITA.I don't sign contracts with such clauses any more. If you badly need a job then a job with such a contract is of course still better than unemployment. In such a case I would try to at least get rid of the "for any or no reason, whether voluntary or involuntary" part, trying to get it changed so it only applies when you quit on your own, not when you get fired. That way, if you intend to quit you can plan ahead, saving some extra money in advance (anyhow a good idea).

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2013, 11:05:25 pm
content: If the employer wants to have a non-compete clause in the contract I'd ask for a reasonable compensation package to be part of the contract too. No free lunch for the employer!

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2013, 11:06:14 pm
content: weather enforceable of not is a moot point.with responses like "well, they would have to take you to court, they probably wont win, ect"weather they "win" or not, your ass is tied up in court, YOU are still stuck with a lawyer bill for however long they choose to stretch the trial out, which, if they are after you , they surely will in order to make it a battle of whos got the deeper pockets to get you to cave first.if its in there, just count on it being legit, because win or lose, its gonna cost you. its stupid, it horrible, or however else you want to describe it, but thats how it is today. the justice system is perverted by the ones with the money and power to do what they want.

author: SArepairman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2013, 11:11:01 pm
content: how do they find out?i'd only sign that if i was this drunk or if i was confident i could whack any snoops they send after me*** image removed by moderator ***or, convince them that you will sign it if they pay your regular salary for a year. fuck that shit, you got bills to pay and a life to live. they got you good at something and their gonna prevent you from being successful? fuck that shit unless you get it written (and bring a lawyer) that they will pay you nice for that year.you are specializing in doing something, meaning continuing to do that something is the best way to further your professional career and be successful & rich.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2013, 01:29:23 am
content: Quote from: Icarus on December 21, 2013, 09:49:23 pmA big company I worked for tried that once. Everyone kicked up a stink and got them to back down.Someone sort legal advice on it and they said it was not enforceable by law in any way, at least in Oz. You can't deny someone a living in their profession or something along those lines.I simply would not sign something like that. Get them to modify your condition of employment, that's common.Another company I worked at (that shall remain nameless), wanted rights toevery design and idea you had ever done before your employment!Unless you submitted a detailed history of every project and idea you had worked on before hand and claimed rights to it. I did that, it was like a 20 page document, and they were shocked and didn't know what to do. No one had ever bothered to do that before!

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2013, 01:37:10 am
content: Quote from: Icarus on December 21, 2013, 09:49:23 pmIANAL as well, but I'm pretty sure Competing Business is capitalized because it is defined somewhere in the contract. How is it defined? That could be important.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2013, 01:40:48 am
content: Quote from: deth502 on December 21, 2013, 11:06:14 pmThese days its good to have an insurance which covers legal expenses.

author: wilheldp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2013, 01:40:48 am
content: Non-compete clauses are common in US employment contracts, but as has been said before, their enforceability is questionable at best. I think the one I am under right now just prevents me from starting a competing business within 100 miles of a current office of my company. One of my co-workers lives in an adjoining state, and has figured out exactly where we could open an office if we ever decided to leave our job.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2013, 01:43:49 am
content: I have a friend who got threatened with litigation under a no-compete clause. He solved it by moving to his new company's German office (instead of US) which made a lawsuit too expensive to be worthwhile.But he was upper management, so that's a little different.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2013, 01:50:50 am
content: Nobody can answer whether you should sign it or not. Have you already accepted the job offer? Are you working now? Are you jumping from your previous employer to this one, or are you unemployed and looking for a new job?Some idiot in HR will give you a bullshit line about "that's just some standard legal stuff, don't worry about it". Either tell them to shut up, or get them to type something up signed by them on company letterhead that it is something you should not worry about.Anyway, a non-compete is a negotiation like any other. Where are you located? In the USA. each state regulates such agreements. In some states, they are virtually unenforceable. In others, they have significant teeth. Since you clearly aren't comfortable with the clause, ask them to remove it. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. If they won't, then as in any negotiation, they want you to sign, you get compensated for that. Perhaps with a severance package payable under any circumstances. Perhaps the clause is enforceable only if you quit, or perhaps you reduce the time period, or the scope. It's highly likely that it is not enforceable as written, and that they would never pursue you anyway - but they have a valid concern. If you design iPads, then Apple isn't going to want you to go off and immediately work for Google on the Nexus... it would be impossible for you not to use your knowledge in your job. So that is a valid concern... but as I said, with any contract, it's a give and take and you ought to feel fairly compensated for what you are being asked to do.Talk it over with them and see what they say - you might be surprised how willing they are to modify the clause if it seals the deal.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2013, 02:21:43 am
content: Add a clause that requires for 12 months after termination they pay you $1000 a month to compensate for limited work options during that time.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2013, 02:46:40 am
content: Without knowing the country you are in, all information here is worthless.Since no one has identified themselves as a lawyer, all information here is worthless.That is except mine

author: Icarus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2013, 07:13:35 am
content: THanks guys.I'm working for this company for three days. The HR guy said that, "they will remove this article", but they still haven't come up with "new" contract.I don't know what they are up to. I guess three days is too long to change one article.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2013, 07:30:21 am
content: Quote from: JoeO on December 22, 2013, 02:46:40 amYou don't need a lawyer to tell you that such a restrictive agreement is nothing but bad news, get it changed at all costs.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2013, 07:32:52 am
content: Quote from: Icarus on December 22, 2013, 07:13:35 amI know people that have handed in their resignation and told them to write a new agreement if they want them back.Half the engineers at a previous company of mine kept a copy of their resignation letter handy at all times, it was the only way to get the company to do some things.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2013, 08:31:58 am
content: They probably don't even care about enforcing it - if they even realize that it's in there to begin with. Often a company will hire a lawyer to draft up their template contracts (including employment contracts), and the lawyer is going to of course put the strongest language they can get away with into that document. Same thing for the clause Dave mentions where they claim ownership of any and all IP that you had prior to employment. I've had that one pop up a few times when I was an independent consultant and every time it turned out that they didn't even realize the clause was in there (they had hired an external lawyer to draft their contracts).Usually they will just strike out that clause if you ask nicely. Sometimes they will be embarrassed enough to get a new lawyer involved to "fix" the template. When it takes days to get a new contract thats probably what is going on.Unless you are a key scientist in R&D or a key upper manager most companies couldn't care less about such a clause because it would be VERY hard to convince a judge to uphold that part of the contract if you are trying to prevent someone from being employed in their profession.

author: ivaylo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2013, 07:43:33 am
content: Yes, without specifying the country this is for, everything said here is just chit chat (didn't you have you country set as Turkey at some point?)Otherwise what you posted is almost verbatim what almost every full time contract I've signed in the US reads.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2013, 08:11:58 am
content: Quote from: Icarus on December 21, 2013, 09:49:23 pmI say go for it! IFF they sign your clause that stipulates they compensate you for your 12 months of missed revenue.Other than that, if you live in a normal country the judge will have a good chuckle when they try to enforce that.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2013, 08:17:07 am
content: Quote from: MacAttak on December 22, 2013, 08:31:58 amSeriously?I mean claim ownership of IP producedduringis already fuck off worthy, but prior to ... that is hilarious! But hey, I'm flexible, just cough up the money and I'm sure we can work something out.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2013, 08:48:13 am
content: Yeah competing company is pretty vague. I mean if you took a job at General Electric, they make practically everything, medical equipment, jet engines, light bulbs, TV networks (maybe not any more). So they compete in nearly every market. Wait.... Carrots! They do not make or sell carrots. So you can go work for the Bunny Luv Carrot Company. Ok thats settles now.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2013, 08:54:34 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on December 23, 2013, 08:48:13 amSounds like a good name for a Chinese manufacturer of vegetable shaped sex toys.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2013, 09:25:25 am
content: I'd ask them once, nicely, to delete that clause (and any others which look at all unreasonable). If they apologise and fix the contract, then go ahead. If they don't do both of those things, then run a mile.I've not had anyone try to claim my IP from prior to the start date of a contract, but I have seen:- a demand for ownership of ALL the IP I create for the duration of a contract. Not likely, given that I'm a self-employed consultant with many different customers, all of whom (obviously) require ownership of the IP which I create for them.- an NDA agreement, which would have given the company automatic ownership of everything I said 'which could be useful' to the company.- possibly worst of all, an attempt to make me (as an employee) personally liable for any claim of IP infringement brought against the company, even though the company owns the IP and can use it however they like. ("Oi, we used that circuit you designed for us in a novel way and now we're being sued for patent infringement... that's YOUR problem").The proper response in each case is a polite but firm 'no' - followed, if necessary, by a slightly less polite, but equally firm, 'no'.

author: Icarus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2013, 05:53:26 pm
content: Thank y'all for your advices and guidence.i'm going quit in a week if they keep ignoring my requests. (contract and minimum safety requiremtens of high power electronics lab)

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2013, 06:57:32 pm
content: Quote from: Icarus on December 23, 2013, 05:53:26 pmI would not quit over the contract issue... you haven't signed it and it doesn't seem a big deal to them, so no problem.Besides, all contracts require consideration. They have obviously already employed you - so what consideration can they offer? It's been held that simply being allowed to keep your job is not generally valid consideration in the USA.

author: manticore00
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2013, 06:59:54 pm
content: When I joined my company I had to fill out a list of any IP I currently had that was mine. After that, pretty much anything I produce is in theory theirs unless I get written ownership/approval or I'm involved in some activity that they've explicitly offered a blanket release of ownership to all employees. Honestly, I can't say I'm too upset about it, they provide me with extensive resources that I can use outside of my regular job completely for free which allows me to learn and advance my career.

author: Icarus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2013, 07:46:05 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on December 23, 2013, 06:57:32 pmYou're right. In my -insane- country, if you worked somewhere more then 2 week, you are legally hold accountable any terms/contracts.It doesn't matter whether it signed or not

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2013, 01:25:29 am
content: Quote from: mrflibble on December 23, 2013, 08:17:07 amWell, the logic that brings them to introducing such a contract clause is that by forcing you to list (up front) all IP that is protected from any ownership claims, they totally avoid the issue later if there is a disagreement between employer and employee/contractor. If the IP under question isn't on the list, then it's theirs. Nothing to debate, nothing to bicker over.It's essentially a tool to pre-empt dispute of ownership by granting the employer default ownership.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2013, 01:44:55 am
content: Quote from: MacAttak on December 25, 2013, 01:25:29 amSo to pre-empt the pre-emption you submit a list concisting of <list> of things you vaguely ever did something with, concatenated with <biggest_list_ever> of things you could find that you might ever think of doing. It's not as if they paid your fee to actually have the right tolookat this IP that I own that I have which is mine which belongs to me. That should clear up any uncertainties that might exist.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2013, 10:43:33 pm
content: Quote from: sleemanj on December 21, 2013, 09:57:05 pmSame in Belgium.-If they fire you, they are unable to refuse you to go earn money elsewhere. Never, every time the company loses.-If you leave and go 1x to a psychiatrist complaining about your job, they even can be punished if now they even won't let you go work somewhere else.-If you leave and you earned less than +-5000 euro/month you can prove that you were no "critical" or "ultraconfidential" personnel, and do what you want.But if you own a company (hamburger restaurant of high-tech), sell it and sign such an agreement to the buyer, rules are completely different.Then you must obey it very carefully.