My workbench: the perfect is the enemy of the good enough - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 05:19:39 pm
content: So my workroom workbench in my apartment is an old wood office desk and it has grown over the years to support weight it was never intended to. Decades ago I shoddily built some shelves with scraps of particle board. The shelves just rested on top of the desk and the weight grew and grew as instruments and books added their weight. The whole thing needed a good do-over because the center of the desk was sagging and there was risk that the whole thing would collapse.Finally I decided to get started. First everything on the shelves had to come down (and go somewhere). Then I took down the shelves and inspected the desk which, sure enough, was very saggy and near to giving way. So I repaired the desk. I brought it back to square, reinforced it with some particle board, glue, etc. OK, looking good.When I go to place it back in place I realize there was always a space between the desk and the two walls it was up against because the corner of the desk is square and the corner of the walls is rounded. I thought this was the perfect moment to remedy that situation. I could cut the corner of the desk to make it rounded or dig a hole in the corner of the wall so the corner of the desk could go in there. I did the latter as it was easier to do and easier to undo in the future.Great, the desk now goes right up next to the walls. I put the shelves back up (although they should be replaced too) and start putting all the instruments in place. After I am half done I realize there is a good reason I had the desk about an inch away from the walls and that is that I could have cables go down.In the back I had power cables but that is not so bad. But in the right hand side, it was very convenient to have a space there as I could just let the cables from the oscilloscope and other instruments hang down there without disconnecting them.I found this very convenient and had grown accustomed to it.So now I have to stop assembling and start undoing again so I can move the table away from the wall again. A lot of time wasted for nothing.While I am in the mood I think I should just get rid of those shelves that rest on the desk and get some shelves that hang from the wall. This will relieve the desk of all that weight. The good thing about these shelves is they are separated from the wall and it is easy to pass cables. If I hang shelves from the walls they will be right up against the wall and I will have to provide holes for cables.I can't believe I have been so lazy about getting onto this job that I have not done it until the desk was close to collapsing. And I would have waited longer if it weren't for that.Comments, ideas, suggestions, constructive criticism, all welcome.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 05:29:17 pm
content: refinish that bench. thats just badThen read the manuals and see if you are causing any thermal violations with spacing around the vents of the equipment. I.e. you should probably have some kind of spacers between different gears. If there is a convection cooled power supply under something it will heat whats on top of it. *And low cost improvements:1) use raceways for cables, tons of different options (you put them on the underside of the shelf above the one your equipment is on2) get cable hooks or clips (many options)3) bench lights. What you can do is on the bottom shelf put a wooden flashing then make a 45 degree angle bit out of wood, then attach a aluminum strip to it, then glue a decent high brightness LED strip to that. The flashing will prevent your eyes from being exposed to the LED strip but most of the light should get through. It will still blind you if you get down to lower the bench (I recommend a switch on the side of your bench). Overhead lighting is better but its still a good addon if you are working with a breadboard or something.*everyone does this wrong, myself included.My recommendation is always to use a equipment library. Have gear that you use normally setup and have a bookshelf with other gear that you can connect (and leave power cables that are in holders). This way you have a clean shelf and good cooling most of the time. I kind of do this. Personally I want to migrate to equipment racks of various flavors (already did this with a microwave amplifier tower). I.e. bookshelf items: keithley low current amplifier, power supply #5 (I personally don't really need more then 4 rails at the moment), tone generators, amplifiers. Like a seperate book shelf (deeper then a real book shelf) that you need to stand up to get to, not like a endless vertical stack of equipment. Do I do this? Not yet. But its my plan after doing this for near a decade. Like a empty space right infront of me that I can set down 4-6 pieces of auxiliary equipment for an experiment then put them away.Also if your not super cluttered you can use shorter cable lengths and get better electronic performance and less cross talk and better cooling and all that shit.I find that the clutter (especially with hooked up cables) makes it such a bastard to clean that it causes stress. 'And keep that floor clean, I think a big problem is people deciding the floor is a shelf.Separate work benches come to mind: For instance, while good in theory, I have yet to hook up a complicated single circuit PCB to a high current power supply, logic analyzer, VNA, spectrum analyzer and electrometer at the same time. I feel like if I had to do that, it would take quite a bit of planning and it would be a rather unique situation. A beast like that should probably have its own separate table to where all the equipment is brought to for categorization/testing then moved back to areas where it is used practically. I almost feel like the VNA should be brought into its own area, I am thinking other then power amplifiers you don't really need to connect anything to a VNA unless your measuring power supply impedance. Maybe I just work on boring ass shit? :-/

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 05:57:58 pm
content: this is what I meant with the lightsAlso a back-plane for the shelf (rather then being exposed to the wall), even if partial, would strengthen it (like 1/4 inch wood panels), but keep ventillation in mind. And you can mount the raceways to that also if not on the bottom shelf.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 06:34:29 pm
content: As I said, the perfect is the enemy of the good.Clutter causes stress. I know.Trying to get rid of clutter also causes stress. I know even better.This is my apartment but in my other home the garage is just such a mess that the only solution I find is to try to not go down there. Just seeing it causes me stress. I don't know how it got to be that bad, just gradually over the years. Now I do not know how or where to start. It is a royal mess.Lighting has never been a problem for me. Usually I have a flourescent fixture overhead (now I would install LEDs) and apantograph lampthat I can move around.Regarding the shelves I need to give it some thought. This is a workshop and I do not care that it looks nice, my main concern is that it is practical. I like using particle board and other wood scraps because I can make it exactly like I want and make holes etc. The only cost is my labor and if I want to change it I can throw it all away and start over again.I need to make a new design for the shelves from scratch. Probably go with hanging from the wall. Probably useFrench cleats. I need to start thinking.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 08:11:28 pm
content: lol clutter can be dangerous too (don't work on a cluttered bench with high voltages because its visually distracting), for low voltages you just get smokebut yes its expensive to get rid of clutter because you often need to buy shelves and organizers. i find what works is to think about clean ability and see if you can realistically break up a cleaning job without interrupting anything (like if you wanna clean in 2 weeks can you divide up the job into 14 daily sessions in such a way that you don't disrupt the work enviroment if you stop in the middle of cleaning. means you don't have enough free surfaces. if you can comfortably do that then your in good shape (and it most likely looks decent)there was a thread recently where someones bench crapped out and bombarded him with boat anchors, don't go cheap with strengthI find things get dirty because there is not enough space to do a cleaning job and you psychologically know its going to be a 'overtime' pain in the ass job to get things done, usually has to do with either tons of little objects on a surface (means you need boxes/organizers) or stuff thats too bulky for the room (I call this 'playing tetris'). I think about it like states, can the room be shifted into cleaning state easily. I had a table knocked out for a YEAR because it had too many fucking miscellaneous do-dads on it. Magnet wire, key chains, pen refil ink cartilages, a few bolts, a few nuts.. hard to accept it will take 2 hours of being meticulous to free up 1 square foot of shit.You wanna take a storage container out of commission? put a plastic battery cover inside of it for something unknownEvery time you go near it: fuck, i am going to have to go through EVERYTHING to see where this goes. maybe I will stumble upon it later *does nothing*... two years later...fuck, i am going to have to go through EVERYTHING to see where this goes. maybe I will stumble upon it later *does nothing*If you keep distilling those boxes eventually you will be left with a particularlyEVILone. God help you if there is precision mechanical things in there (like a gear). may be with you until you die. Yea are you gonna throw out that box that has a loose gauge block with just a dash of rust on it?Tetris would be like a basement with a spare boiler, toilet, bicycle, so you need to clean around them, then move one thing, clean under it, dry it off, move it back, etc..... i have this problem nowSometimes dealing with a hoard-crap box I almost imagine that you need to be some kind of priest or mage to keep the temptation from keeping it away. It's like the ring from LOTR. yyes.... just let me sit on that shelf until you die..... yesssssssssthen 5 years after you throw it out you wanna hang yourself because it was the perfect part for some pain in the ass repair or whatever...............................

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 01:30:58 am
content: QuoteWhat I did is to build a skinny extension table that goes behind my bench. But I wanted more depth after getting a microscope. It's stable, because it is against a wall, and the legs extend forwards a foot or two in a spot where they are out of the way. Then I moved my hutch/shelves from the back of my bench onto this extension table. I purposely built this table to be a few inched taller than my bench, so the surfaces don't meet. The edge of the extension has a lip that extends in the front, an inch or so, so I can set a small gap between between the back of the bench and the front of the extension table runner, and the front lip of this extension table still overhangs the back of my bench just a hair. My o-scope is on the shelving and I just drop the probes down into this gap when I'm not using them. More specifically, I added a hook to the edge of the shelf, so the 4 probes leads run horizontally, even with shelf, over the hook, and down into the gap in one bundle, neat and tidy.Actually, I added a raised extension directly to the back of my bench, prior to that. So I have 3 "tiers" to my bench, now, like a stadium. The two additional tiers are both a bit higher than the last, and there are gaps between each for running wires and cable. This produces places for things to roll off the back of the bench, but some of the first gap is closed up with thin drawers and for cable holders, and I don't have enough issue with the remaining gap to make me bother with closing it up.The way I built my bench, it has shallow front-less drawers with even shallower sides for support (enough to keep things from rolling out the sides of the drawers, but only an inch and a half tall), directly under the bench surface. I figured I wouldn't be pounding on it, too much, so the box frame for the top of the bench is actually below the drawers, and the supports between drawers are enough to keep my bench flat for the last decade. I occasionally pull out (and clear out) a drawer for additional place to set things I'm working on. So that makes 4 tiers.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 05:24:44 am
content: If that is a good solid brick wall then yes its best to attach it to the wall. I recommend adjustable systems like this:http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=40003&cat=1,43326They sell these in most hardware stores.You can easily leave a bit of a gap between the wall and shelf and this lets you run cables behind it. These things are also adjustable to any height you would want so you can later on tweak your shelf spacing to fit your needs. Evenly spaced shelves tend to work the best for storing lots of the same sized thing (Like books or binders etc). When you start putting a mix of things on it you can sometimes get into situations where some stuff wastes space while other stuff doesn't fit.If heavy test equipment will be on it i would recommend using more than just 2 rails. The rails are pretty darn strong (If you buy the proper ones) but the shelf itself might start bowing in under the weight.For really big and heavy equipment this shelving doesn't work well anymore. The big test gear can be 60cm deep and weigh 30kg a piece. For that id recommend looking trough your local ebay-like sites for anyone throwing out a old server rack. The large test gear is all designed to fit into a standard rack and these racks are made with thick metal frames capable of supporting a literal metric ton of equipment. Often the racks also come with caster wheels under them so you can easily move the whole thing around (Or they will often have a way to screw wheels onto it if there are none)

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 07:09:42 am
content: Quote from: Berni on April 15, 2019, 05:24:44 amExactly !! Also then, there is NO bottom board of the shelf-unit, and you have more desk-spaceP.S. I love watching "Mr. Carlson's Lab" on YouTube. Here's HIS workbench

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 07:15:02 am
content: Yep he sure has an impressive setup.I sure hope those shelves are solid enough for hold those heavy boat anchors. I wouldn't want a heavy tube scope falling on the brilliant guy.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 08:57:57 am
content: I reckon he's rigged those shelves to hold stacked anvilsThere's a Youtube suggestion/question to pop at Mr. Carlson's Lab,ask how he set up those shelves, materials used, type of wall etc

author: AlanS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 09:08:10 am
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on April 15, 2019, 07:09:42 amCan you imagine the power consumption? The heat? The feeling that someone is looking at you?

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 09:15:47 am
content: This was supposed to be a minor repair and leave everything like it was but, as often happens, it has turned into a major renovation project and now I have to design the entire thing.Kinda like yesterday in Linux I gave in to Google Earth bugging me to update. It should have been a minor thing but the update broke Google Earth and it is no longer workingAt any rate, I think I will go with shelves hanging from the wall because that makes the desk underneath independent of them and it does not bear the weight. Long project ahead.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 10:05:57 am
content: Re:- "Mr. Carlson's Lab".Yea... He doesn't seem too worried about heat/ventilation, especially with the older equipment ?And he keeps his 'Anvils' on a lighter-duty shelf-system just out of shot !Yea, I will post him, about his shelving, and 'heat' issues !!P.S. Also just out of shot, near his feet, I think he has a bank of these, for Master-Isolation !!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 10:16:09 am
content: Lots of good bench ideas here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/whats-your-work-benchlab-look-like-post-some-pictures-of-your-lab/

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 11:38:39 am
content: Desk top space, without overhangs below your seated head hight, is *VALUABLE*. Unless the room is particularly narrow, I would suggest floor-standing shelves behind the desk, with brackets holding them to the wall at the top for stability. Standing off the shelves from the wall to leave a gap behind them for power leads and ventilation is worth doing. As you are in the EU, if you want reasonably heavy duty modular shelving that doesn't look industrial, it may be worth looking at the IKEA IVAR range.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 02:53:19 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on April 15, 2019, 11:38:39 amThanks for the suggestion. I have used this arrangement before but I feel the shelving space at lower level than the bench is wasted.What maybe could work would be shelves that straddle the work bench so that the shelves are supported by the floor (and, as you say, held to the wall for stability) but the lowest shelf is above the working surface and the vertical sides of the shelving straddle the desk.I could build the whole thing with particle board and one side could be directly fixed to the side wall.I need to think some more about this.Another issue is that I used to put electrical power outlets in the back wall but the desk is so cluttered i can hardly reach them. I have had outlets installed in the front rail or apron and the advantage is that it takes much more clutter to obstruct them

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 03:33:05 pm
content: Shelf space behind and below the desk is always mostly wasted so live with it and get over it! Put a bottom shelf a couple of inches off the floor to tie the side frames together and use it for long-term storage. Another shelf a bit below the one level with the desk top can be useful if your equipment runs off a lot of wallwarts, but only if there's more of them than can be accommodated by a couple of socket strips socket screwed to the back of the desk just below the top.Particle board is absolutely horrible and guarantees long-term sagging and failure if heavily loaded. Any 'engineered' wood product other than good quality WBP exterior ply of at least 18mm thickness, or oriented grain factory block glued shelving boards is just asking for trouble, especially if you intend to span the whole desk width.Outlets along the front rail guarantee overhanging cables, which will sooner or later get snagged and dump expensive kit on the floor when you get up in a hurry. You don't need quick access to the sockets powering the test equipment as long as there is a single accessible cutoff switch for them (or two - one for kit that's best left powered on for long-term stability and possibly for a bench PC*, the other for everything else). If you mount a socket strip at approx 18" height above the desk top on the side wall it will be above most desktop clutter and easily accessible for day to day use.* Tower PC under the bench, keyboard in keyboard draw with room to stow a wireless mouse, monitor with multiple inputs on back wall under the shelves or at back of desktop level shelf. Spare input cables left connected at the monitor end and hung on hooks next to it. Fit other unused ports with extension cables and a powered USB hub to bring them up to desk top level. If you are soldering with datasheets open on the PC, the ability to close the keyboard draw to keep flux and solder dross out of the keyboard and just keep the mouse on the bench top for navigation is invaluable.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 06:20:53 pm
content: Yes, I know particle board is terrible and I don't like it except that it is very cheap and often free if recycled from cheap furniture. Generally I will reinforce it with cheap pine strips or even build the structure with regular pine and then use particle board only for the surfaces.I wish plywood was cheaper here but it is very expensive.I might build a structure with regular pine, maybe from pallets, and then use particle board which I already have, for the shelves.Another option is to use steel shelves and I could go that way too as I have plenty of scraps.I will be thinking about all this because I do not want to rush into something and then change my mind.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 08:46:42 pm
content: QuoteThis is obviously for show. It's claustrophobic seeing his little talking head at the bottom of the frame with all this equipment being the the center, lol.What the point of having 5 scopes, esp all facing different directions so you can't see them at the same time? I can't hardly remember how to use the controls of one scope. How you get your work in and out of that crowded little space?Buy a new scope and move some of the boat anchors to the boat shed.I rather have some open flat space to configure to the project. When I need a specific set of boat anchors, I take them out of the shed and set them up for this specific problem. Then put boat anchors back in the shed. I bet he hasn't powered half those things on in the last 10 years. In all that mess... where's the computer monitor and keyboard? This IS his boat shed. He must do 99% of his work in a different area.

author: KC0PPH
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 11:37:19 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on April 15, 2019, 07:09:42 amHow many Plug Strips does have have daisy chained together to power all that? Suppose its all on a single 15A circuit too (Assuming USA).

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 12:24:44 am
content: Quote from: KC0PPH on April 15, 2019, 11:37:19 pmAFAIK I believe he's in Canada somewhere ?I'll bet he most likely has a thick or multiple cable feed coming directly into the lab, to cater for multiple devices running and avoid voltage sag and turn on brown out,with plenty of cheap generic plug strips (some daisy chained perhaps) to cater for all the gear.A separate transformer welder circuit (or two) say 30 to 50 amps in Canada/US would handle that lab easily if all the gear was turned onI am assuming the gent has taken into account the breaking force of that shelving and gradual stress flex over time,and not just the immediate hold weight

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 12:30:15 am
content: ^When would you ever need to use more than half a dozen of those instruments at the same time?This is the woodworking version of Calson's lab.I'm sure he uses every one of those hand planes. Not.He removed and rebuilt the shop a bit back, and one of the viewers was surprised. He assumed this wall of planes was a photoshopped background/wallpaper. It's hoarding/collecting in both cases.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 10:30:43 am
content: Speaking of power strips, ever since my very beginnings I realized having a lot of instruments made for a mess of cables and I developed the idea of daisy-chaining them. Any instrument I built would have a couple of female outlets in the back. Any instrument I bought I would fit it with outlets if it was possible. This simplifies cabling greatly as it keeps cables behind the instruments and out of the way. At 220 volts most instruments draw little current and can be daisy chained without problem.The problem has started when they started changing plugs here. Old plugs had 4 mm prongs. Newer plugs have 4.8 mm prongs and will not go into the old outlets without an adapter. Not a big deal but still...

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 10:42:59 am
content: I like using power splitter cables like this.https://www.ebay.com/itm/IEC-320-C14-Male-Plug-to-3x-C13-Female-Plug-Y-Split-Power-Splitter-Cord/183641578202?hash=item2ac1e41ada:g:-6YAAOSwALlcSYB3I use this to power groups of low power instruments from a single standard IEC cable. Makes for a lot less clutter at the power strips when you got a lot of gear.Tho for mains stuff its a good idea to test them. I tried mine by daisy changing all of them together and then sending 30A round trip to the end and back. They did get very warm but nothing was hot or smoking so they pass. Just to make sure the wire inside is real proper thickness copper and that the connections (including earth) are solid enough to carry full current. Outlets here provide 230V 16A so if it can handle 30A for a few minutes it will handle 16A all day.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 11:33:32 am
content: Quote from: Berni on April 16, 2019, 10:42:59 amHa! I have been cheating for many years and just made them myself. I would take three computer cables and splice them all into one single Schucko plug. That works well with C13 / C14 connectors. Come to think about it maybe I should start updating/improving some of my instruments and install this type of connector in the back. Some have a fixed cord and are a pain to move out of the shelf. It is better if i can remove the cord from the instrument.

author: basinstreetdesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 06:23:51 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on April 16, 2019, 12:24:44 amI believe he is somewhere in Mississauga, Ontario.He comes across as VERY methodical. I don't doubt that he has designed the shelves and electrical system very well. The shelves that hold the 545/547 scopes, at least, are hung from the floor joists above.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 11:39:58 pm
content: Suggest to go with power strip boards,the 4 ways are cheaper to buy than a single plug or socket or a 2 meter length cable,and usually on sale or cheaper by the dozen, they meet electrical approvals (DIY check read FIRST!) and LEGAL.'LEGAL' may mean nothing to many now, but the insurance company may not pay if something happens on the property, even if not power related, after seeing suss DIY cablingDaisy chained 4 and 6 way power strips work great, each has a thermal cutout/reset,and you can buy a multi switched power board as the Master,for 4 or 6 strips that may be difficult to access (or tossed in the back)In Australia a basic starter set up of four (x4) 4 way boards plus a single 4 way switched board is good for 12 to 16 devices (depending on the daisy chain or not layout),and will cost just under $30 in total for quality brand name units.Do the math guys, that's $2 per socket. You can't even buy "a single plug or socket or a 2 meter length cable" for that, much less a short extension cord.I check new addition power board sockets for a good tight fit (no suss ~loosey~ "WTF" badged socket rattlers please) and check with a polarity/power point tester,before I plug in gear,and then toss the newly loaded board at the back to join the others...I stay away from wanky 'surge protected' boards and or USB fitted rubbish.Just straight plain power boards with an overload reset switch near the cord entry point (not squished into the male plug = another latest DDA 'dumbass design award' candidate)For those that need true constant surge protection and or USB, buy separate add ons/devices that actually WORK.---------------------FWIW: an upgrade to the four (x4) 4 way boards is to additionally buy an RCD/MCB cube (usually in an orange color) with 4 switched sockets as the MASTER Master, and for future adds.This way you've got local RCD (GFCI) and MCB protection, and thermal cutout in each of the four power boards = win win win

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 03:31:45 am
content: I think that mr. carlson has a assembly line approach to his measurements and equipment calibration.For instance you can setup the scopes to different settings (being analog scopes that will hold their position after power off) to see expected signals. I.e. you can get a calibration/verification procedure for a piece of equipment, go to various test pages, and set up equipment clusters to quickly deal with certain pages. You can setup your equipment ahead of time, take a break, get it out of the way.I question his setup for design work or categorization (I don't think you will get full thermal stability or be easily able to read certain figures or adjust detailed measurements easily in that cramped configuration), but it looks like a very decent setup for tech or repair work (i.e. glance at a SA far away to see if the thing you expect is there and to be able to quickly decide that the equipment is in working function and set it back.Evaluating a system to the xth digit of precision is different then monitoring to make sure if an appliance (yes he does transmitters as his end goal, not design of test equipment) is not doing funny shit. You can probobly hook something up to a bunch of gear and sit across the room watching it from the corner of your eye while watching TV and you might notice some kind of aberrant behavior if its been in your field of vision for 1 hour.He works with RF for a living it seems, so he probably knows how to setup a whole bunch of equipment to various settings that will be probably useful so he can just grab the closest thing to his thought and have to do less adjustments.Personally I don't like the setup for thermal/distraction reasons. The equipment cannot like that cramped setup.But the general assault of peoples tool count is kinda annoying. What's wrong with a planer wall? If you have it memorized you might be able to shave a few minutes off a job in the long run. Add up 5 minutes a day for a year and your talking worthwhile. Almost a whole day spent planing. And you can rotate them to maintain sharpness if you get some kind of bastard wood so you can increase up time then later possibly even export or assemblyline sharpening. Not to mention they will have slightly different ergonomics so if you are using them alot frequent location will change the distribution of forces on your body and possibly help with joint pain and muscle soreness. And the different tactile sensations from use may increase enjoyment of the activity and engage you psychologically.another

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 05:31:42 am
content: These old analog scopes are also made from plugin modules. Having multiple scopes means you can keep them with different configurations of plugin modules to suit different tasks rather than plugging these massive modules in and out, potentially causing wear and tear on them (Especially since they are tube based and need to be swapped when power is off)Tho for Mr. Carlson he does have quite a bit of a hobby in collecting and repairing vintage test equipment, its not just test equipment, pretty much any piece of vintage electronics will catch his interest.Besides when your scope breaks you need another scope to troubleshoot it. This actually happened to me last month.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 12:12:30 pm
content: 'soldar'... It's not complicated mate. Wall-plugs, screws, simple shelves. Larger board on topof desk... trust yourself !! Keep it simple !... don't think too much about it. Just do it !Quote from: Electro Detective on April 15, 2019, 08:57:57 amI just did that, 'Electro Detective'... Will be interesting to hear how he responds...P.S. Here's the link to Mr. Carlson's latest post, including the above. You can see & hear the wayhe talks, (to the un-initiated in this forum), and his in-depth methods of discussion, and use ofSOME of his above-mentioned equipment. And I love his clear Canadian 'speech' tooP.P.S. Yes, he looks like he is in a Lunar Module, preparing to re-launch back to Orbit !He is trying to use his "write-upside-down" pen to reset/replace a faulty fuse/button somewhere...P.P.P.S. His fingernails are always spotlessly clean & manicured for closeup filming/photography !P.P.P.P.S. He, (and his partner), have a CAT which they love, and roams the LabOh!!! P.P.P.P.P.S. He correctly talks about 'SOL-dering', not 'SODDering !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 01:02:38 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on April 17, 2019, 12:12:30 pmThe consequences of getting it wrong are expensive and if a shelf collapse occurs while you are working at the bench, you risk serious injury.e.g. seehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/lab-storage-shelf-collapse-postmortem/Just imagine a child walking underneath as that happens.Unless you already have a professional grade understanding of the wall structure, and the limitations of common types of wall fastening, not thinking too much and "Just do it!" can get pretty dangerous. I have seen a brick near the top of a wall start to pull out under the loading of a shelf bracket - the mortar was in poor condition, and the wall was one brick thick with no load on top of it.You also have to consider the point loading of floor standing shelves. Unless you are on the ground floor on a solid concrete pad, some knowledge of local building codes and the condition of the floor structure is needed if you are going to load the shelves more heavily than would be the case in normal domestic use. The most heavily loaded shelves that an ordinary household would be likely to have would be a fully filled floor to ceiling bookcase. Take the density of books and papers as 750Kg/m3and if your proposed shelves will have a higher floor loading, you need to do the formal structural loading assessment properly.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 01:12:29 pm
content: This just begged to be done.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 01:17:56 pm
content: Quick and dirty hack job. If you want to impress me, you'd need to photoshop all the test leads being pulled towards the black hole!

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 03:15:32 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on April 17, 2019, 12:12:30 pmYeah, I know. My OP was only meant to share that I spent some time making what I thought was an improvement (cutting into the rounded corner in the wall so the sides of the table could go up against the wall) only to realize later that the "defect" I had lived with for decades had the advantage that I could drop the cables and probes of the instruments down the side, out of the way, between the desk and the wall. I had become very used to this convenience and now, after the 'improvement" I did not have it any more so I might have to go back and put the desk the way it was.And so what was supposed to be a very minor thing is turning into a "while I'm at it I might as well do this and that" never-ending project with some analysis-paralysis thrown in.At present I am inclined to go with hanging from the wall because that frees the desk from weight and makes desk and shelves independent of each other.I have a lot of slotted angle strips which I could use and that would be the easiest but I think I prefer the look of wood. Slotted angle also gives me more flexibility if I want to make changes later on.

author: cjs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 03:38:53 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on April 14, 2019, 05:29:17 pmThe little rechargable LED desk lights are great for getting a bit of extra light on to some particular part from an extra angle, and they avoid cable clutter while you're doing it. When done, fold it up, stick it back out of the way and plug it into the charger.I usethis one, which costs less than USD 20.I also use floor-standing shelves behind the worktop. I have my monitor mounted on a monitor arm attached to the shelves as well so that I can actually move the entire table away from the shelves when I need to re-organize or do more than trivial work on the PCs or other stuff under desk level. The shelves themselves arecheap but sturdy metal rackon casters so that I can unhook them from the wall at the top and roll them out a bit if I need to do any serious cabling behind them. (Even if I didn't have regular earthquakes here I'd probably firmly attach the shelves to the wall at their tops because it just seems like a good idea.)

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 11:27:16 pm
content: Filling a trolley with discounted scratch n dent wood, fancy DIY fasteners, new masonary drill bits, saw blades, chainsand a weekend supply of BEERat the local big box store,may not exactly get you the holding power and longevity in those lab photos above.If you don't want to mess with crumbling bricks and wonky halfassed built walls, DUST drama,and crossed fingers in deep prayer that a gear landslide won't ever happen...a four sided welded and or properly bolted simple internal steel cage, with ceiling join bridges, would support a lot of shelved heavy gear and itself,without hacking walls and stressing over building regulations/insurance, future hole plugging/painting etc.You can always take it apart if bolted or if welded get the local welding guru to plasma cut the frame for re-use if moving out.Better still, heavy duty adjustable shelving with low profile castors > with brakes! Look for used bargains and hire a truck/trailer for a few hoursBuy once, cry once, a re-usable no brainerIMHO leave the walls to hold up the plaster and peg boards,not invading cyclop electromonsters from another time...

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 11:24:24 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on April 17, 2019, 01:02:38 pmI'm sorryIan, and to 'soldar' of course !!I was truly just being light-hearted with tongue-in-cheek! when I said that. Of COURSE everyoneshould consider the type of wall/structure/hardware for load bearing abilities. I guess I subconsciouslyalso assumed that from the O.P.'s original photo, that his diversity of equipment would *not* be likethe also 'tongue-in-cheek' photo of 'Mr. Carlsons Lab', maybe needing structural girders to a Foundation.Speaking of thatlast line, above.... In the early 1970's of my apprenticeship with 'E.T.S.A', (TheElectricity Trust of South Australia, our power authority then), pre-digital, & pre-computers etc...There was a special room built, with the most accurate & expensive analog volt-meter available, whichwas used as the "Official Standard" for a 'Volt' (and more), as a State-Wide reference.It sat on top of a large concrete plinth, which went through the 'floor' to it's own concrete foundation !to stop any wear/vibration on the jeweled bearings. The room was also shielded.I'd love to know what happened to that, as it's all superfluous now !!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 01:32:55 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on April 17, 2019, 12:12:30 pm

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 11:21:44 pm
content: QuoteThere's nothing wrong with hoarding/collecting equipment/tools. Trying to justify it to yourself that they're all useful is when you have a problem. There's not all useful when you have 100 tools that are identical. Stumpy doesn't use all those planes, and he will be the first to tell you he collects them. He has 10 or 20 of the same exact plane, because he collects them. Not because he has them setup in 10 or 20 different ways, lols. Even if they were, how do you think he would tell them apart the way they are stored? I'm not talking about the complete set of planes (that's another story) at the bottom. But the 40 identical rabbet planes just stuck on a shelf. As for the complete set of planes.... no one uses them all. They are made in that many sizes for options/collectors. You don't use a #5 then say, damn, what I really need is the 5 1/2. Heck, I've watched the show for years, and I've never seen him use a single one of these rabbet/shoulder planes ever, and I might have seen him use a Bailey plane only in videos specifically about using planes.I'm not assaulting Mr. Carlsson for collecting and displaying his collection. I'm just pointing this out to people using this as a template for putting together a working bench/lab. This is not for work; it's for show. I'm sure at some point Mr. Carlsson used every one of those devices and they served a very important purpose. Then he just can't bear to let it go when he got new tools and the old ones became 99.9% redundant... with maybe one unique feature that has a 50% chance to be used once in the next 50 years... which is why you store that somewhere else than your primary working space. You know what's more useful than redundant tools? Anything. A whiteboard. A clock. Empty space.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 01:26:43 am
content: sounds like a mathematician trap. don't really need physical matter anymore? What you say is true if you have so many tools that your work space is inadequate. Otherwise more tools is better. It's just gonna end up shifting your focus to bigger shit since you have more space. It sounds like corporate discussion infiltrating hobby discussion almost since this is mostly because no one wants to provide engineers with fucking offices or individual work areas, while maintaining high end corporate furniture. Mr Carlson actually has a giant room to the right of his lab with shelving and tables.I think you might want to use different user interfaces at different times for different measurement sequences for convenience sake. You can go through a manual and do all the presetting for different measurements on different equipment then print out the sheets that you need to fill in numbers and fly through stuff like verification.When you want to get things done at home with low energy after work by any means necessary I can see it working to have different tools to save you hardly quantifiable amounts of effort. I do this in the kitchen for instance. Otherwise when you want to cook your 16425th meal you will tend to start eating out. Plenty of people have more money then energy. Especially RF people that have to think hard at jobs and get paid bank. Sometimes its amazing that stuff actually gets done with the energy you might have. Then again I am the type of guy that might decide to make a sandwich, then realize the bread knife is dirty, then end up preparing a different meal rather then having to wash a knife..... (if its in the dishwasher and its not been turned on). If its a annoying cut cut bread at least that I know I have a high chance of butchering and making a leaky sandwich).If I had to work there I would just get a pole camera connected to VR goggles so I can monitor that equipment lol (in case you need more data then the shape or a curve of spectrum from far away).

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 08:53:31 am
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on April 19, 2019, 11:24:24 amI understood you perfectly. No worries.I have enough experience with mechanical things that I tend to overbuild so things falling off the wall would not be a problem for me.Traditionally I have always tried to avoid making holes in walls because a hole is forever and you lose flexibility. I have always preferred floor-standing shelves for that reason. At he same time I do not like having my desk or work-bench in front of shelves, blocking the lower part. Also, I always liked having the shelf over the work area so the screens and displays and controls are closer to me. I guess it is what I am used to.So, discarding the shelves between desk and wall and going with shelves over the work surface I have three options: (1) hanging from wall, (2) resting on bench and (3) legs straddling bench.Today I am feeling lazy and I am thinking I might go with leaving the shelves resting on the desk which is the easiest and the way they were. I am not looking for perfection, just something practical.OTOH, I do want to have the work place ready to go all the time. Right now all my tools are piled up in a corner and it is a pain. I want to sit down and start working, not spend 30 minutes getting things ready on the kitchen table and another thirty minutes putting things away when I am done. I don't have that kind of patience.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 09:10:22 am
content: Ex-retail heavy duty metal shelves are good for free-standing shelves over/behind a desk. Worst case you might have to cut holes in the bottom shelf for the rear legs of the desk. You can often find compatible units with a perforated back panel for rows of hooks, that if you mix and match with regular shelves, is ideal for hanging probes and other test lead cables at the back between the shelf above and the bench top.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 02:03:57 pm
content: I have an arc welder and can easily put something together. In Spain steel tube is way cheaper than wood unless you are reusing pallets -- which require quite some work to dismantle.As I said, I also have a lot of steel slotted angle length which I could use except I don't particularly like the looks. It's OK for garage shelving but that's about it.In Spain old walls are solid brick so no problem anchoring to the wall. Now they are beginning to use metal studs and drywall for interior partitions. It makes passing cables easier but I wouldn't even call it a real wall.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 03:57:02 pm
content: So now its got to look pretty as well?You could spend a month or three designing and building a tubular steel frame combined desk and shelf set from scratch, and making the shelves adjustable would be a real PITA, then spend a week or two in the paintshop prettying it up. Allowing for real life delays, that would put you back to the end of the summer or early autumn before you can get back to electronics.IMHO its time to go shopping for second hand commercial furniture and retail shopfittings. Get a move on, spend some money and you could be back to doing electronics early next month.e.g. Find a luxury steel frame executive desk with a damaged top going cheap. You want it for a workbench, so sticking a *FUGLY* sheet of hardboard on the top for a worksurface isn't a problem. The shop shelves I suggested are cantilevered, with strong slotted steel box beam L shaped uprights, brackets that slot onto them and have adjustable feet for levelling at the bottom, at the short end of the L which would go under the desk, and at the L corner. They can be used open-sided or you can add side panels. There's always small supermarkets going out of business so they are readily available second hand. Clean them off and get a paint shop to respray them to match your decor.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 04:33:48 pm
content: do you really want a steel desk for electronics though? What if it becomes energized for some reason?Wood IMO

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 04:48:40 pm
content: There's nothing wrong with a steel desk with the frame grounded and an insulating top (+ESD mat) for general electronics. It only gets dicey if you are working with HV DC or live mains on an isolating transformer*, and need a fully ground-free work area for safety.* If you are following current best practice and using a RCD protected supply and isolated differential probes rather than an isolating transformer, its not an issue for working on the primary side of mains PSUs etc.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 05:07:34 pm
content: I feel like eventually your gonna have a mains powered thing up on there. I don't like it, and I would still go for a solid vernier not a mat.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 05:30:19 pm
content: I said steel frame, 'Insulating top'. If its wood or a wood based composite, it *MUST* be sealed against damp, or you cant guarantee it will stay insulating, after you spill flux, soldering sponge water etc. on it. I wouldn't trust veneer or a single layer of hardboard to provide mains insulation. A steel top is *NOT* a good idea as its difficult to retrofit safe insulation at the edges, especially the front edge.The ESD mat on top is *NOT* to be counted on for insulation for safe working - its only there to reduce the risk of ESD damage.Also note the RCD on an electronics workbench *MUST* break *BOTH* Live and Neutral, otherwise charged caps on the primary side of SMPSes are high risk hazards. As you are betting your life on the RCD working if you touch the wrong part of a D.U.T, you'd better have two RCDs in series, both reputable western brands, and *NOT* the same model!

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 07:56:42 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on April 20, 2019, 03:57:02 pmNot really. I just think rectangular steel tube is stronger and looks better than slotted angle.For a working surface I have always liked wood except for welding and other metal working but for anything else I always liked wood and mostly I just use plain old particle board.If I am going to work with something greasy or dirty I'll lay down some newspaper.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 08:10:25 pm
content: angle is a bastard to clean, if I had to use angle to actually build something for myself it would have something to act as a flush infill so a cloth can wipe down on it without too much hassle. It's like a spider magnet too.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 01:00:21 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on April 19, 2019, 01:32:55 pmMaybe I'm just 'old'But I don't understand ?I can't remember talking about an 'Inquiry'Maybe I missed the humor in the small low res photo text ??

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 03:05:42 am
content: all these questions and it looks like a congressional hearing. the man is being seriously investigated

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 07:03:53 pm
content: Another thing that bugs me is equipment that does not have a power switch in the front panel, only in the back side where it is not accessible if the thing is enclosed in shelves. I don't know why they would do that but I suppose the thinking may be that all the equipment will be connected to a common circuit and they will all be turned on at the same time.I hate that because it means I have to provide a switch somewhere inconvenient. I do not want to have equipment I am not using turned on.I can understand it in computers because they have a soft start button in the front but I have several instruments which only have a switch in the back.I do not understand why they would do this as it is so easy to provide a switch and let the user decide if they want to use it.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 07:09:46 pm
content: What test equipment has a switch on the back? I don't think i have ever seen one before.Tho i do hate the trend of soft power buttons being used more and more in test equipment.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 08:14:38 pm
content: Here's one:Tektronix Digital Multimeter 5120It has a single switch in the back, like a computer PSU.I guess it makes it simpler to have the switch right next to the C13 connector.

author: duak
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2019, 12:43:43 am
content: Didn't know about the Tektronix DM5120. I see it's for the TM5000 plug in mainframe. If you just want a meter, then it comes with its own mainframe. I suppose to make it half rack width, there wasn't any room for the power switch on the front panel.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2019, 01:43:43 am
content: I guess its meant for rack mount stuff that has high up time. In that case I will butcher the chassis, I am not playing acrobat.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2019, 05:14:04 am
content: Ah that looks like its a plugin module for those multipurpose frames and its usually the frame that has the power button.They likely ran out of room for a power switch. Some of the frames i have seen with multiple slots use the spacing between the slots to squeeze in a really narrow power button, its usually colored bright red so that you notice its not part of the frame. If they had to add a normal power switch on these frames that would make the whole frame a good 15mm wider for nothing other than the power button (Tho i suppose they could also have some GPIB LEDs above it to use up the rest of the space.)Have a look inside maybe there is enough room behind the front panel to put a power switch in a corner, perhaps replace that grounding post with a toggle switch.

author: Calambres
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2019, 06:06:30 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on April 22, 2019, 07:03:53 pmDitto!Quote from: soldar on April 22, 2019, 07:03:53 pmI have a Tek TDS-320 scope with front soft start button and it bugs me a lot. It draws 4W when off!I had to plug it to a switched socket just because of that.

author: AlanS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2019, 02:11:03 am
content: Quote from: Berni on April 22, 2019, 07:09:46 pmMe too. I recently had a lightning strike to ground force current up through the BCD to mains and blow the bejeesus out of a lot of "grounded gear", the BCD and some circuit breakers. Double insulated equipment was not impacted.Equipment on the same mains circuit as the Envox EEZ H24005 survived (I must have left it on) - it sacrificed itself to protect everything else. I replaced the TVS diodes to get it working again. Good design, good supply.