are drawing normal schematics a dying art? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: m3vuv
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 12:49:51 pm
content: looking at some circuit designs online it looks to me like a lot of ppl are using this Fritzing thing,i find them horrid,look like sommat out of a 2yr olds scribbleing book,whats ppls views on it?,give me a proper schematic any day!!.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 01:35:59 pm
content: Normal schematics haven't gone anywhere. Fritzing has its small niche in being the perfect software to document breadboard and stripboard circuits. But I find those drawings more comparable to a PCB layout, rather than a schematics replacement.

author: m3vuv
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 01:51:40 pm
content: horses for courses i suppose,i find them hard as i like to visulise them in my head as a normal schematic,its what your used to i suppose,i think i have only used a bread board once,find them teribly unreliable,i prefer veroboard.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 01:55:52 pm
content: I've never heard of Fritzing, so I Googled it and I do recognise the graphics, which some people have posted here, when asking beginner questions.I use a KiCAD, LTSpice, Proteus and sometimes MS/K Paint for drawing schematics, depending on the situation.I agree that I find a layout much more difficult to read, than a proper schematic and I've politely told people this, when they've posted them.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 02:07:02 pm
content: I don't think they're meant to be easy to read for the purpose of understanding at-a-glance how a circuit works, they make it easy for people to build simple circuits without a lot of prior knowledge.They even say something to this effect on their website:QuoteThe last bit is perhaps stretching the truth a bit...

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 02:07:52 pm
content: Yeah i also think a schematic is better.But thing is that the arduino users that most of these breadboard layout diagrams are made for do usually find it better. People without experience in the find find it easier to follow when they get a 1:1 picture of what they have in front of them.It is a similar thing when making a manual for some consumer device that the user has to hook up, like say a solar charger module. The user probably knows how to wire up a mains socket, but never actually used schematics. So they will find it easier and more understandable if you draw all the components of the system and draw lines directly from terminal to terminal to show them what wires need to hook up where. Having a schematic just adds another step of identifying what part is what and what terminal pin is what.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 03:50:03 pm
content: Beginners gotta start somewhere. The first schematics I drew, withpencil and paper, were surely the most grotesque you'd have seen.So what's the problem really? Don't like new people joining the community? C'mon...Put another way: at least they're using anything at all. No, they're not communicating as clearly as you could. They're learning. They may not even be interested in learning the things you know; they may have other priorities: more towards programming, or getting through school, or just a one-off project, etc.Tim

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 09:54:55 pm
content: Communication in the engineering and scientific world is, or at least should be about conveying the relevant information in the most concise way without extraneous information.The fritzing schematic method seems to be fundamentally similar to a regular schematic but using flashier photo realistic circuit components. OK, but I don't like that it expresses circuits in a breadboard format because that adds an extra step of decoding the circuit path. It also makes an assumption that the schematic creator and reader have the same breadboard layout, whereas I've come across varying rail splits on breadboards. That probably isn't an issue for anyone here who can read a schematic, but for someone who lacks that knowledge and is trying to recreate a visual representation, they are left without troubleshooting knowledge that should allow them to rectify the circuit. Same goes for the arduino board connections. Sure if the pic is high res enough, you can read what each pin is, otherwise you need to go find the pinout for the arduino board and determine which pin on which pin header is what. Or you could just have a schematic that says GND, 5V etc etcThe lack of textual information for each component is a giant no-no for me. This is compounded by the elaborate graphics that take up screen space around each component blocking out room for any text info.So Ill take the elitist route here, not out of any gatekeeping but out of a desire to see people have long term skills to succeed with. Anyone interested in electronics regardless of age should be encouraged to learn traditional schematics first off. Don't underrate people, explain the basic concepts behind schematics and help them understand and give them the proper foundation for the rest of their life in electronics. I've come across this exact issue in the pedagogy of other fields. People, especially young people and beginners often see a traditional method as a barrier which "seems" too hard and so they seek out a simpler and easier method, but one that ultimately leaves them with a substandard skillset and time wasted that could have been spent on a more effective way.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 10:04:06 pm
content: Quote from: m3vuv on November 15, 2021, 12:49:51 pmWell, by that measure, you could also be looking at Twitter posts all day and think human intelligence has gone forever.So no it's not dying at all, and most people using Fritzing-like stuff are likely people who would never have drawn a proper schematic anyway.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 10:23:45 pm
content: At least people draw proper point to point connections with it. Not like the army of new generation dummies who drops parts on the schematic sheet and terminates every single pin with ports.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 11:18:05 pm
content: The old legible and structural view schematics is an art, Today's schematics are like a component datasheet, just show pin names and numbers only, no connection, no structural view, no nothing. Even power isn't there, It's pure garbage. Or we are old, and the new generation just like that #$%%

author: penfold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 11:25:42 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on November 15, 2021, 10:23:45 pmIn defence of the army of dummies, let's not make provocative statements. The nature of the schematic itself is changing, it's significantly easier to navigate hierarchy with modern tools, most designs being handled electronically makes it less favourable to use A1 sheets that are totally illegible when zoomed to fit a screen etc etc. So why not use hierarchy to provide some abstraction to sub-circuits and separate functions or find ways to make the design more flexible with less drafting effort and chances for mistakes?Learning to read or draw a schematic is honestly something I've forgotten how or when it happened, but I remember it being described like reading sheet music and one day, years later, I was thinking how right that guy was. When you (maybe not, but I do at least) think about it, in reading a schematic you need to have a lot of stuff running through your mind at once to get from straight wires drawn at reasonably arbitrary locations, some connections omitted for clarity and components that are drawn to look nothing like their physical entity to "something" that's comprehendible and imaginable as a real system... at least from that perspective I see Fritzing as a more logical choice than studying loads of theory first and going for the intentional hard-way, maybe that approach will lead to a better understanding perhaps.I totally agree from being used to a formal schematic approach it can be more difficult to follow... but surely by offering assistance one assumes the responsibility of meeting them halfway with the means by which they communicate the problem?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 11:43:45 pm
content: Quote from: ebclr on November 15, 2021, 11:18:05 pmTo be fair, the old generation never had to deal with 2,000 pin vacuum tubes. Modern problems require modern solutions.Tim

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 01:00:43 am
content: Quote from: Bud on November 15, 2021, 10:23:45 pmI tend to agree with you, but in my last big project (where I led a team of excellent engineers) we had some schematic pages that were just that. These were for boards with multiple 1000-pin BGA custom ASICs, and there was no reasonable way to show the connections or generate the netlists. In fact, much of this was automated, and those schematics and netlists were generated by software. We had human-drawn upper level block diagrams that showed the gist of the thing.But for more normal schematics I definitely like (where practical) signal flow from left to right, power on top and ground at the bottom, and connections plainly shown.I don't like the Fritzing diagrams, but I don't get upset about them -- I'm just happy that someone is dipping their toes in electronics. If they enjoy it they may eventually advance to real schematics (etc).

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 07:57:17 am
content: Yes, it is dying as an ART. I create schematics, PCB layouts and coding for a living. I consider these to be treated as ARTWORK, not just output files.I often have to read others' schematics, layouts and code; including those from reputable companies. Pet gripes:1. Inheriting schematics done by lazy engineers.2. Inheriting PCB layouts done by lazy engineers.3. Inheriting firmware written by lazy engineers or programmers.I say lazy, because often that is the reason things are incomplete, ambiguous and even unreadable. But sometime management does not provide the time to do things properly. I see it a lot. Lack of test points, lack of net labels, dodgy track layout, or no ground test points - the latter should be be punishable by death. Poorly named or inconsistently named schematic sheets is very common. The ad-hoc use of underscores and upper/lower case is a pet gripe. Using underscores in net labels is plain bloody stupid when using Altium.This can be all prevented ensuring there are company standards (schematic, layout and C/C#/C++ coding standards). It's hard work to create them, but it is a good investment.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 08:17:20 am
content: Making a good readable schematic is an art in itself.But its difficult to write a strict standard in how to draw schematics in such a way. Sure there are some general guidelines of power on top, ground on bottom, signal flow from left to right..etc But things are not always so black and white. Different ways of laying things out is needed depending on the scenario.Sure a schematic with all net labels connecting stuff is bad, but then again having a schematic where everything is a line with no net labels can be even worse. Things with large numbers of nets can turn into a spaghetti maze that you have to chase around with your finger to even find what goes where. It's about using sane judgement in where to use net labels and where to run lines. Or when lines are used there are various ways of grouping them together that can make it much easier to follow, but there is again no solid rule on how to do it.Part of it is definitely the rapid pace of development these days. In the 70s the design of a piece of electronics involved a large team of people that worked on it for pretty large time frames. They all needed to understand each others documentation. Even more importantly the schematic being turned into a PCB was read by a human being, not a computer where the CAD tool simply turns the schematic into a netlist. So the person drawing a nice schematic actually saved a good deal of work for the 2nd person that had to turn it into a PCB. Hand drawing a nice professional looking schematic is also a lot of work, so the person drawing it puts a lot more thought into the layout (like sketching it out first) so that once they do go for the final clean drawing they will get it right first try.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 08:25:07 am
content: Quote from: m3vuv on November 15, 2021, 12:49:51 pmFritzing diagrams remind me a lot of your grammar, I can barely read it. I can't stand Fritzing diagrams myself but they are really only used by beginners, mostly maker types, any real engineer and most mid range hobbyists use proper schematics, they haven't gone anywhere.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 08:37:39 am
content: Oh, thanks, I did not know it is called FritzingIt looks like a great way to explain to non-technical people where to put what wireIt is a totally different thing that schematics

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 12:13:53 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on November 16, 2021, 08:17:20 amAltium allows you to you harnesses in schematics. Harnesses are OK if used wisely and the engineer does not go over-board ('scuse the pun). I have seen harnesses grouping harnesses grouping harnesses! And with harnesses' signal names changing between sheets. The engineer who created it made such a mess, there were Altium harness errors he left in the design, then he left the company. I ended up fixing the errors, and in doing so I found two instances where where one digital output was driving two GPIO digital inputs in a processor.I do use harnesses myself but rarely. Altium made a mess of harnesses in my opinion. Changes to harness names is not trivial.I think that engineer is like some sharp coders who make a point of writing pointers to arrays of pointers which point to pointers so that the appointed engineer points out he doesn't see the point.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 02:40:48 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on November 15, 2021, 11:43:45 pmFor laptop schematics and such where components have hundreds or thousands of pins, I can see the utility. But using that style for something much simpler is adding complexity where there shouldn't be any. When both ends of a net are on the same page, try to connect them with an actual wire.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 03:12:14 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on November 16, 2021, 12:13:53 pmYeah i am not a fan of how harnesses work in Altium. They are a great idea, but poorly executed.For the medium scale designs i tend to work on, my preferred way is to have a high level block diagram out of those green sub-circuit blocks on the first page of the schematic and then have one schematic page per block. All the external connectors are also typically on the first page. That way you can get a good high level overview of what talks to where while each schematic page only has the relevant things within that block. Sometimes i even add some simple block diagrams on top of the green block to give a basic jist of what is going on inside before you even open it (ie an amplifier or level shifter shown as a triangle arow). Flowing a signal around is reasonably easy even manualy when exported as pdf.That being said i still found this style of schematic used in confusing ways where parts of a circuit are cut up in a nonsense way and spread across two or more modules, so you have to constantly flip pages to figure out what is going on.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 03:14:25 pm
content: is a problem making too many assumptions in schematics. IMObetter to know what something is, then to guess if it has supply or ground pinsI like the old school black and white schematics with full detail.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 03:41:17 pm
content: Quote from: John B on November 15, 2021, 09:54:55 pmI suppose fritzing drawings are similar to those of electrical panels, which show where all the wires and terminals go. I personally find all the extra information on electrical drawings distracting, when all I want to do is understand how the flaming thing works, but it's necessary to wire it up and can help with fault finding. I like to have a schematic which just shows what's connected to what, without showing the terminals and wiring in too much detail and a separate drawing, or wiring schedule detailing how it's actually wired up.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 04:29:50 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on November 15, 2021, 10:23:45 pmThis.Also, modern board designs are 5 ICs, 100 decoupling capacitors, 500 nets, and 3 resistors. So much of circuit design has moved into IC design that I know people who just say "I'm a circuit designer" to mean "analog IC designer." It's pretty understandable that few board level schematics look like the beautiful drawings in the end of an old HP service manual.Finally, I have to say looking at some fritzing schematics to see what it was all about that I am a bit disappointed that regular schematic design has not adopted color. Many schematics will only ever be viewed on a monitor and color printers are hardly more expensive than black and white. Color coded nets definitely could certainly be abused but it could also be a powerful tool for communication of intent if done properly.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 05:21:16 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on November 16, 2021, 04:29:50 pmPlease, though, consider the *very* common red/green color deficiency that affects a good percentage of the male population. Some colors are extremely hard for me and others to tell apart, and it's not just red and green. At least make sure there is redundant information on the schematic so I can figure it out without being able to differentiate all the colors.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 06:08:28 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on November 16, 2021, 05:21:16 pmGood point. Also, I've seen a lot of abuse of colors for schematics. They should not be used to replace proper layout of schematics using "reasonable" symbols. I personally find colored wires/busses awful. An acceptable use of colors is giving IC symbols a colored background - like the common light yellow - but that's about it.Also, color printers may not be a lot more expensive - although in a company's context, most printers are laser and reasonably reliable printers for corporate use are still more expensive in color... but also the printing cost per sheet is a lot higher. If you have never worked in a company with accountants telling people to stop printing in color unless it's absolutely necessary, you're lucky.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 06:26:03 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 16, 2021, 08:25:07 amSeriously, the poster complains about Fritzing but his post is written in Authentic SMS Gibberish.Something about motes and beams in eyes here, I think.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 06:58:42 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on November 16, 2021, 06:26:03 pmI wouldn't have said anything except I'm fairly sure I remember him popping into a thread with nothing more than a complaint about some minor grammatical mistake, by someone who was not a native English speaker.SMS gibberish made some sense back in the days of flip phones and 160 character limits, but with modern smartphones that almost everyone has you have got to be exceptionally lazy to not at least try to use something resembling proper grammar. With autocorrect, auto suggest and support for much longer messages there is no need for abbreviations that make it harder to read.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 08:45:51 pm
content: Quote from: m3vuv on November 15, 2021, 12:49:51 pmI know it's common to type in social media acronyms - I do it myself, and it's a hangover from the times when sending SMS cost money (here in the UK, it no longer does in a per unit sense), but in this context, I feel it would behove you to type words and sentences in their full forms. After all, it's not 1999, and you're not trying to save 10 pence by shortening the contents of a two-SMS, 20 pence worth of SMS to fit them into one

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 10:57:14 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on November 16, 2021, 02:40:48 pmIf I have a SWD/Clk debug signal from micro going off to a debug connector, I'm not going to bother running the wires off to it on the side of the page.Kinda prefer organized blocks in the same area, eg connectors all along the left side of the page.But, these are schematics for myself, I get how its harder to understand whats going on. And you can definitely get caught doing this if you forget to hook up a net and don't run a schematic check.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 11:26:42 am
content: Quote from: Berni on November 16, 2021, 03:12:14 pmExactly. Great idea but poorly executed. Problem is when Altium creates something down the wrong path, they cannot easily fix it because it breaks earlier schematics. Backwards compatibility can sometimes be a curse.I had an ex-colleague who worked for a company in Canada where they have one page per IC and even one page per transistor. He told me they had perfected stupidity to a fine art. As you say, a good schematic minimises page flipping and maximises comprehension. Page flipping slows down the productivity of debug technicians in Production. Years ago some TV schematics had oscilloscope waveforms in various circuits to aid fault diagnosis... they were brilliant because they considered the plight of the user (TV tech). In fact, TV sets often came with the schematics tucked away inside the set.Net labels with sensible labelling should proliferate in my opinion because they aid track layout work so we know exactly what each track is for to minimise crosstalk, consider currents etc, without having to refer to back the schematic all the time. Some net labels can be very small if they are benign to the end user, eg: "TP23".

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 06:53:40 pm
content: One page per transistor? Unless the circuit contains a very unusual ratio of transistors to passives that sounds extremely tedious.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 07:41:29 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 17, 2021, 06:53:40 pmIn guessing the people there got so used to working with ICs and not much with discrete analog anymore. So perhaps a transistor is simply there for making a open collector output or a switch. So its 1 transistor doing 1 job.I do sometimes do a single chip on a page. This is mostly on things like MCUs and FPGAs where that page caries the massive chip symbol/s and out of that schematic i have ports with sensible signal names. That way the top level schematic just show a "VIN_SENSE" going into the MCU block, but if you want to know exactly what pin that goes to you can just open it and see what pin it hooks into. This information usually quickly gets turned into a .h C header file, so its no longer needed afterwards.The one annoying thing to clearly show are UART lines. There is no strictly defined master/slave since both nodes are symmetrical while you do have to cross over the RX and TX lines for it to work. So naming the nets becomes tricky. This is where the Altium direction arrows on the schematic sheet ports help, but sometimes i have UART going into a connector. I started drawing extra direction arrows there too in order to show what way the data is flowing.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 03:47:57 am
content: A slightly off-topic, is the old phenomena: The Drafting Dept. And the folks doing that work, 40 hpw.My approach, in a small business, used the schematic and other supposedly in-house packaging documents, in marketing. So, a sub-system package might include cables (schematic), plus lots of views of enclosures. That makes for a market-ready document and as a bonus, helps keep marketing dept. realistic in promises made (i.e. to the customer).The old-school: DRAFTSMAN that's what I got started thinking, and that (was) quite a role, back in da day.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 08:49:33 am
content: Quote from: Berni on November 18, 2021, 07:41:29 amWhen transistors were expensive, some designs did have a lot of passive components per transistor.A single transistor LED flasher I designed just for fun. Yes I know it's possible to use a transistor in reverse bias mode, but it doesn't work at low voltages.phaseshift LED flash.asc

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 05:05:38 pm
content: See my post: Can anyone still use a pencil?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/can-anyone-still-use-a-pencil/msg3810782/#msg3810782It must be a shotage of envelope backs an fag packets.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2021, 12:21:22 am
content: Quote from: Berni on November 18, 2021, 07:41:29 amThe TX and RX pin on a chip's schematic symbol should always be in reference to that chip. The TX and RX lines on a board connector should be in reference to the board. Some people name the net labels with the reference in the name eg: "MCU-TX" meaning it is a TX from the MCU chip.In my opinion, a very good idea is to use direction arrows in the device symbols. With Altium, for example, a microcontroller's symbol will have the TX line shown as an output and the RX line the receiving chip as an input. This makes it so much easier to read - no confusion and no ambiguity! The library symbol stays the same, but the instance on the schematic is modified showing the respective directions. The only risk here is if you carelessly do a symbol update from the library, it can be overwritten.

author: penfold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2021, 01:00:30 am
content: The RX and TX ‘issue’ is one reason I quite like keeping the number of ‘functions’ per sheet lower, because naturally in the hierarchy it gives an additional planning stage to define signal directions, altium makes it clear enough if there’s any violations that aren’t visible. So along with sensible naming, pin directions and annotations (fewer components… more room to annotate!) it makes everything easy to review, rather than “oh that’s not right, what was it meant to be” it’s “is what I intended to do correct and does it match what I drew”, doesn’t necessarily eliminate page turning, but it gives page turning a very defined objective to prove or disprove a single statement

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2021, 06:47:24 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on November 25, 2021, 12:21:22 amYes in a lot of cases it is possible to have a sensible "Master" on that UART bus. In those causes i prefer to name the lines as being TX from the MCUs point of view. For example a MCU talking to a GPS receiver or Bluetooth module or something.But sometimes things become tricky. I had cases where two MCUs talk to each other on the same board (It was some small MCU doing time critical stuff) or you have two MCUs on separate boards talking to each other over a connector or cable. For clarity you want to maintain naming of the connector pins on both sides so that its easy to follow the signal from schematic to schematic. Yet both are a MCU talking UART to some pins on a connector.So the directional schematic ports in Altium are really nice for making this more clear. Where i have a UART bus just going into a connector (or something else without direction) i manually add some graphical arrows to it, so its clear what direction its flowing just by looking at the connector.But this is just 1 small part of it. There are plenty worse ways to make schematics into a confusing mess.

author: AlienRelics
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2021, 06:07:43 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on November 16, 2021, 08:37:39 amNo, it is called a pictorial diagram. This particular program is called Fritzing.QuoteVery true, and sad. I blame Make: Magazine for destroying the art of drawing clear, cogent schematics. They have these bastardized half-schematic, half-pictorial diagrams with an IC being shown as a block with 14 pins and no labels. It requires you to break out the datasheets and redraw the circuit to figure out what is going on.I guess the question is, do you just want to assemble other people's projects? Or learn how they work so you can change them and even design your own?

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2021, 07:54:15 pm
content: Quote from: AlienRelics on November 25, 2021, 06:07:43 pmMake: Magazine isn't intended for engineers, techs, or other people who are already skilled in the art. It's for those who want to get their feet wet, or are looking for ideas (although it's true that I occasionally pick up an issue to see what's going on). When I was starting out (at the age of nine or ten) I had no clue how those tube things worked, and I couldn't have designed a radio to save my life. But I did have simple schematics (which might as well have been Fritzing diagrams) which showed me how to re-wire war-surplus airplane radios so I could use them at home. This was how I got started, and I see Make as providing a similar pathway for people who are interested in electronics. Perhaps they will eventually graduate to schematics, but anything that helps them get over the initial hurdles is OK with me.

author: AlienRelics
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 03:18:21 am
content: QuoteWhich is precisely why their schematics should be as clear and easy to understand as possible.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 06:09:30 am
content: Quote from: AlienRelics on November 26, 2021, 03:18:21 amYes but what you find more readable might not be the more readable to them.When they have a transistor in there hand they have a black thing with 3 pins on it. They don't even know the correct order of pin numbering for the package, let alone what each pin on a transistor schematic symbol is called. They need to be able to find the datasheet to find the pinout etc..On the other hand if you show someone a drawing of a TO-92 and draw lines from each pin, then pretty much any sensible person will be able to wire it up from that drawing alone, even if they have no electronics experience at all.Even just planning your breadboard layount can take a bit of skill to lay things out nicely compact without boxing yourself in while at the same time keeping jumpers short and neat.Yes it's infuriating for me to read such diagrams. But for someone who is just trying to replicate the build they are indeed easier. Perhaps after they get a few projects working they will get enough interest in electronics to learn how to read proper schematics and to learn how things he put together actually work.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 12:10:35 pm
content: In my early days of electronics, the pictorial diagrams were everywhere in the magazines I used - I personally don't see any bastardization of anything, as one is not really replacing the other.Despite the magazines still showed the schematics and principle of operation, the visual correlation between the actual part and the pictorial diagram was an incredible tool to get a successful build. And that is what it is: a tool to help people build their projects.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2021, 10:39:21 am
content: In my limited experience, the absolute best technical documentation I was exposed to - both verbal and diagrammed - was fromAMPEXin the 1970s.Everything from theory of operation, detailed block diagrams - fabulously accurate and readable schematics, and no colour or photos unless it was in a supporting role.Mind you, the technical docs for a video tape recorder was contained in five 4-inch thick ring binders.They were so good, I’d take one home, and read them overnight through my traineeship!

author: AlienRelics
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2021, 04:45:12 pm
content: As I said already, do you want to just replicate projects someone else designed? Then pictorial away.Do you want to actually learn how things work so you can start modifying designs, and designing your own? A clear schematic is a wonderful tool.I did a class in reading and drawing schematics for some local makerspaces. All of my examples of how not to do it came from Make: Magazine.Older datasheets are great! They designed new ICs and they are trying to get people to use them. So they put a lot of effort into including reference designs and examples, with special emphasis on clarity.I'm not telling anyone else what to do, just expressing my opinions.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2021, 06:22:06 pm
content: Quote from: AlienRelics on November 27, 2021, 04:45:12 pmAnd my opinion is that some/many/most/me for sure, get their initial exposure to electronics by replicating projects others had designed. I found it fascinating, and began modifying, and understanding at a primitive level, those designs. Eventually it turned into my passion, which led to a great career. Now that I'm retired, it's still a passion, and my main hobby.I don't know where I would have ended up had I not started out copying other peoples work. Probably as an old guy playing bass in a bar-band for tips (one of my other hobbies, except for the tips).

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2021, 06:33:09 am
content: If you want to build a circuit you SHOULD take the time and effort to sit down and work out how it functions and what the components are doing. If you're blindly following a guide, slotting modules together or doing the electrical equivalent of "dot to dot" kids books, then don't you DARE go and show off your copied device to someone, boasting and accepting praise. People ARE VERY lazy nowadays - they want the rewards and adulation without the hard work (look at society too - Instagram nonsense etc - everyone's constantly out having a huge "party", and yet they've got nothing of any substance to be celebrating, if ANYTHING - it's an attention seeking generation)

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2021, 11:18:20 am
content: That is very myopic. People learn differently and get their motivation in many different ways. The process is a continuum of successes and failures and the learning comes along the way, not a pre-requisite.For a kid like me starting to get the taste for electronics at the early age of 7 or 8, a successful build was incredibly rewarding and a feat on itself, which led to more builds and deeper understanding. Without the "blind copy" there was always a chance my interests would go elsewhere - at the time I was also interested in mechanics, but the lack of hobby magazines and the difficulty in assembling things without standard and mass produced parts available on a store were a huge stumbling block.I am not the only one. Many of my youger co-workers started copying and assembling circuits and code using Arduino and simpler stuff and are starting to make a career out of it.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2021, 11:46:25 am
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on November 16, 2021, 04:29:50 pmBack in the 1960s, Schematics with different colours were used by some manufacturers, but personally, I found them hard to read.They disappeared after a while, so I mustn't have been the only one of that opinion.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2021, 03:40:45 pm
content: Quote from: eti on November 28, 2021, 06:33:09 amThis was my initial reaction to the "Make movement". Copying a blinking LED project??? Pathetic!After a few minutes, remembering how I personally started in this field, I changed my mind. Yes, I started before I was ten years old and it turned into a rewarding career, but I see no reason to disparage an adult who wants to build something. If they advance from there that's great, but if a MAKE magazine project is as far as they get it's still so much better than passively watching television or playing video games.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2021, 05:39:53 pm
content: Heck, I mean I make a "blinking LED" project every time I'm picking up a new platform. Granted that's a rather more abstract affair, but you never stop doing "blinking LED" projects at some level or another.Tim

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2021, 06:44:55 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on November 28, 2021, 05:39:53 pmYes, me too. It's the "Hello World" of hardware / firmware. And that blinkable LED can really help later in the debugging!

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2021, 08:06:33 pm
content: My typical progression has been:1. It has GPIO? Blinking LED.2. It has serial? Put a console on it. (Now I can inspect memory, run commands of my own design, etc.)3. It has graphics? Put a raycaster on it. Or Doom if it's got enough power.Tim

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2021, 05:14:39 am
content: If I taught an electronics class, I'd teach them to blink an LED using an oscillator, but mention that a uc is a possibility, but wouldn't demonstrate it; that'd be moving from electronics into programming. I don't "care" how you blink one, but why go to all that silicon expense for such a trivial operation?

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2021, 05:43:19 am
content: Quote from: eti on November 29, 2021, 05:14:39 amBecause you can? Because it's cheaper? Or you want it to blink in morse code? Does it matter? Actually, I don't care either, but I don't think that's the point.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2021, 05:49:09 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on November 29, 2021, 05:43:19 amWe're talking about a simple cyclic flashing, not Morse code. Clearly it's "horses for courses", and would rather daft to design a discrete transistor solution for Morse code, although it would be a feat worthy of praise.From a teaching *actual* electronics perspective, it teaches far more to impart the knowledge to make them self-sufficient, and learn how to use the bare essentials such as transistors, or failing that a relay and caps, (and not be tethered to a PC and some silly SDK to make it happen), and not dependant on a specific UC (or any).If one is to learn electronics, then teach them it, not how to setup a PC & SDK just for that. Teach them how to make an LED flash with a few random transistors, and they'll always have a way of doing so.Laziness is a modern epidemic. Any excuse to take the least.effort route and pull some nonsense off GitHub for such trivia. It's actually amusing that anyone would want to teach this way "just because you can". Find the most simple and efficient solution, not the one that "everyone else uses".I can make a neon flash with a diode, a cap and a resistor, it's far more rewarding AND they simultaneously learn about the theory of operation.https://www.build-electronic-circuits.com/blinking-led-circuit/K.I.S.S.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2021, 06:50:26 am
content: Quote from: eti on November 29, 2021, 05:14:39 amIt's usually about the journey, not the destination.You usually don't actually need the blinking LED for anything, its just a convenient indicator that whatever you connected it to is working. So if you are trying to learn how to use a microcontroller it is the best first goal to do. You have to learn how to walk before you learn how to run. Heck even i constantly make blinking LED programs as a hello world on the first prototype of a project. It gives me a nice indication that the processor is alive and running, that my MCUs clocks and PLLs and dividers and whatnot are set correctly for the blink speed, that my IDE is configured correctly to spit out working code that is placed in the correct spot in memory..etc. A lot of ducks had to get in a row for that LED to do its thing.If you are learning about analog electronics then make it blink in using transistors instead.That being said MCUs are often a sensible economical solution for a trivial problem. They can be bought for <0.50$ in small volume off DigiKey and often require 0 external components do to the job. So as long as you need anything more than just a constant frequency blink it will actually be cheaper to use a tiny 6 pin MCU, also its more compact. I went down the path of designing an analog circuit for a easy task, only to get half way there, realize this takes a lot of components to do properly, then throw it away and replace it with a MCU. Things like a delayed off for the light in my garage, turning on the driveway lights when it gets dark etc..

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2021, 06:52:50 am
content: Quote from: eti on November 29, 2021, 05:49:09 amThe neon bulb relaxation oscillator was my first blinking light! (about 55 years ago) And I agree about learning by starting with the simple fundamentals. But if someone starts by copying something more complicated, that's OK with me. If it interests them they will eventually get around to the fundamentals. In my early years I learned a lot by building something I didn't understand, then figuring out how to make it do something different. We don't all start out on the same path. And I doubt that we actually disagree on any of this very much, if at all.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2021, 07:14:56 am
content: A schematic / circuit diagram is part of the projectDOCUMENTATION.The PCB layout is a tool that assists with manufacturing.You can still build the project without a PCB ( think old style point-point) wiring…BUT you can’t build or repair a moderately complex circuit with any reliability - without a schematic.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2021, 09:50:45 am
content: Quote from: Berni on November 29, 2021, 06:50:26 amYou can't get much cheaper than a Schmitt trigger IC, such as the 74HC1G14 + RC circuit and costs less than the cheapest MCU, in small quantities.If all I wanted was a flashing LED, just use a self-flashing LED: no discrete components, or coding required!

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2021, 10:02:26 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on November 29, 2021, 09:50:45 amI remember seeing flashing red LEDs in “Tandy” in the UK, back in the 90s, for about £4, and I recall thinking what a ripoff it was 😁It was, but they’re great.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2021, 10:55:50 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on November 29, 2021, 09:50:45 amYes this is why i brought up flashing with something more than just a fixed frequency. Like you want it to flash 3 times upon seeing a rising edge on a input, or you want it to flash in a pattern of 2 flashes every x seconds. Or perhaps you also want a certain beep to accompany it. There are lots of these simple tasks that sound like a pretty dumb task for a MCU, yet still require a fair number of components to put together. The use of a MCU also provides easy communicability as sometimes when you first put together the prototype you find it doesn't work that well and needs to work slightly differently, no need to bodge circuitry onto it, just change a few lines of code.It is indeed much less satisfying of a solution, but it gets the job done.For example the task of turning on the lights when it gets dark is easy to do in analog, its one of the most basic projects. But i wanted this thing to be fairly robust, so i used a IR sensor that can't see light from the CFL bulbs (White LEDs ware not quite there yet back then), but it can see halogen car headlights, yet i don't want to unnecessarily cycle the CFL bulbs. So i needed a really slow low pass filter, it turned out to be annoying to make without huge capacitors or high impedance nodes (this is outside so i don't want high impedance) then i also need a schmitt tiger, then i also wanted to lock out changing state for 15 minute after a turn on, again requiring a slow timer. In the end a MCU with a A4 paper worth of code was the solution and its still running today. The 'cost saving' was made even more significant since it was a one off done on perfboard, so extra components mean more work to wire it all up.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2021, 11:56:17 am
content: Quote from: eti on November 29, 2021, 10:02:26 amEverything was expensive in Tandy. Basic components, such as a plain old TO-92 BJT, 741, 555 timer etc. cost around £1 each. They used to be sold in blister packs with the component sealed inside a vacuum formed bubble, stuck to a piece of cardboard, with a basic datasheet printed on the back. Worse still, the packaging wasn't even ESD proof. I'm pretty sure I had bought faulty components from Tandy, but as I was only 12 at the time and a complete beginner, I didn't have the confidence to complain, as I thought it might've been my fault.I remember seeing a few empty packets in the store. Either someone had stolen the components, or the glue had started to fail, allowing them to fall on the floor and presumably vacuumed up. They probably lost as many parts, as they sold.I remember discovering Maplin, which was much cheaper and sold a greater range of components, but there wasn't one in my town, so my dad occasionally drove me 10 miles to go there. Eventually a Maplin did open near me, but by then Tandy had gone and it had deteriorated to the point of being useless, for most things.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2021, 01:16:43 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on November 29, 2021, 11:56:17 amYeah I remember seeing the same poor old CPU sitting on their shelves for many years, cardboard fading. I can’t imagine anyone needing such a niche product or knowing what it was, in our rather basic, backwater town. 😂

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2021, 05:29:09 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on November 29, 2021, 11:56:17 amIn Oz, sometimes Tandy would have some weird bit that nobody else had, but at an exorbitant price, or other times, it was just easier to "bite the bullet" & pay up for a common component, rather than drive a couple of suburbs away to Dick Smith.On the former point, the bloke next door came over with his daughter's intermittent car radio for me to "take a look at".All pretty standard, except for a largish DIP audio amp IC, which turned out to have a temperature sensitive fault, & more importantly, was "unobtainium" in Oz.(this was pre-Internet!)After looking everywhere, I was just about to give up, when whilst browsing in Tandy, I saw an audio IC in a vacuum pack, that someone had put on the hook with the cardboard back, showing a suggested application, facing out.It was "near as dammit" the same as the one I needed, except in a totally different, single inline package, with a heatsink tab on top.As luck would have it, there was enough room to attach it to the radio's side panel, & by using a bunch of conductors stripped out of a multi cored phone cable, I was able to do a reasonably neat job of connecting it up.It went "first go"---no more temperature sensitive failures.No more "Mr Fixit" for me, either, I pleaded too much work from my real job!

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2021, 06:17:11 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on November 30, 2021, 05:29:09 amAaah! Car radios! I absolutely adore that format and the compact nature of clever mechanical things coupled with a very dense electronics. I am now casting my mind back to my teenager years where my boy racer friends would ask me “please wire up my stereo, Matthew.” (muggins here couldn’t say no, 🙃) or the DREADED “Moss” car alarms, which even at the tender age of 17, I was perceptive enough to sense were a “trend”, and utter junk! 😝Car electrics are tedious and cramped, and the crusty, crude wiring looms which are nothing but a bunch of wires encased in spiral-wound insulation tape and the endless mismatched and poorly made bodge connections which silently tell the history of the owners of the logbook. Ughhhh

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 30, 2021, 07:06:21 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on November 30, 2021, 05:29:09 amA free 9V battery every month made up for it. Tandy did some things right - as a kid I would pay off those pocket BASIC computers using lay-by. Would have hundreds of the yellow hand-written slips over my high-school days.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2021, 07:56:57 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on November 29, 2021, 11:56:17 amIt was relatively expensive, but there wasn't anywhere else around, at least not that I knew of at the time. Radio Shack was in every shopping mall and when I was a kid it was the most interesting store there was in the mall and always the place I wanted to go to first whenever I was in one. The problem I had with them was not the prices but the fact that they almost NEVER had all the parts needed to build ANYTHING, even the projects in their own books they sold. You could get a lot of common ICs and stuff like LEDs and switches and project boxes, but they never seemed to have all of the values of resistors or capacitors I needed, it was always something. Eventually I learned about Digikey somehow, I think they randomly sent me a catalog but even then I had to make a list and get my mom to call and order things because I didn't have a checkbook or credit card when I was a kid.