eevBLAB #17 - The Australian NBN SUCKS - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 01:32:09 am
content: The $30BN+ National Broadband Network (NBN) was supposed to catapult Australia into being a world leader in internet communications. How's it looking so far for businesses that drive the Australian economy?Dave looks at the roll-out map to see if the NBN is in any business parks in Sydney yet.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 02:08:42 am
content: I imagine that most of the business parks are making good money for the telecom providers using existing services. We've been able to see the NBN area from our driveway for 18 months, it doesn't get any closer any sooner.But, with any luck things will improve. At least the current PM is not as technologically challenged and we hopefully won't get as many drongo policies.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 02:59:55 am
content: Hmmm. There are a lot of flats/unit being built around me. I saw the NBNCo van across the street when the new flats went up.When I check the nbn website, and enter my address it says not available in my street."The rollout of the nbn™ network has not started yet in this location."My Cisco teacher isnt a fan of the NBN or gpon.

author: 5ky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 03:02:30 am
content: I was pretty salty about being TWO MILES away from the nearest Google "Fiberhood", but I guess I can't complain after seeing what you're stuck with. Nearly every person I work with at my day job has Google Fiber and I'm jealous beyond belief. Gigabit down AND up for $80/mo. Insanity. (to add salt to the wound, my MOM has google fiber)I think I pay about $60 a month for 300 Mbps down, 25 Mbps up. Not the fastest by a long shot but it's probably as good as I can get on copper.EDIT: I looked up the NBN prices and they aren't bad at all! They seem fairly comparable to the rest of the world. Does all internet in AU have monthly bandwidth caps?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 04:22:05 am
content: Quote from: aargee on October 13, 2015, 02:08:42 amI wouldn't hold your breath---he was the Communications Minister who though up "Fibre to the node"!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 04:22:36 am
content: Quote from: 5ky on October 13, 2015, 03:02:30 amMost of them, yep. Unusual not to plan plan with a data cap.

author: minionkevin
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 04:55:33 am
content: They put in residential first to get the voters. I don't think they are too motivated for smaller voting blocks. does NBN even perform better?

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 05:07:37 am
content: Nothing unexpected here with this political hot potato.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 05:14:32 am
content: Whilst your about it find out where the NBN Co headquarters are and zoom in on that, wouldn't that be hilarious if they themselves are still without.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 05:29:31 am
content: Same thing in the US, commercial internet is pricey, residential is cheap.Government can't compete with business providers because they will take away jobs or something.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 06:38:42 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on October 13, 2015, 05:14:32 amAddress: Arthur St, North Sydney NSW 2060

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 06:40:57 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on October 13, 2015, 04:51:04 amI think Malcolm has pretty much aligned himself with this idea---he was supposedly the ECCHH! "Tech Savvy" member of Cabinet.On the face of it,it isn't a bad concept---Use the existing copper wire for a short run only,phones can be powered from the "node",so no loss of use if the household power goes off,etc.The downside is poorer Internet speeds,even with nice new copper cables.The existing cable runs aren't always conveniently situated to connect to a "node",nor are they in good condition.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 08:36:47 am
content: Something you have to keep in mind with those business lines is that the specified bandwidth is usually guaranteed. Consumer lines usually are overbooked about 25 to 50 times. Not that I'm complaining, I get 120/10Mbit for something like €60 a month and the service is great, It's almost never slower than 100 Mbit down. There's effectively no data limit, it's "fair use policy". Last time I checked I used about 200GB per month (3 active users).Business lines over here are relatively expensive too, 15/15 costs about €300 per month with 10:1 overbooking.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 08:55:26 am
content: I have fiber to the telecom cabinet at the bottom of the street, then fullspeed VDSL for the 200m to the house.~NZ$99 a month. 50GB included in priceThis is the cabinet

author: stuarts
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 09:24:37 am
content: In my case NBN stands for No Broadband Nearby.The old NBN website at least gave you an idea of the progress and outlook. The new one tells you almost nothing.

author: stuarts
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 09:31:33 am
content: Based on the amount of money spent and the number of residences connected, $40B was just dreaming. If they can complete it under $80B I would be really surprised. At the current rate, most of us will be lucky if we see a connection in the next 10 to 15 years.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 09:56:00 am
content: Even in the shitty parts of Austria, you can get 75 Mbit for €20. And Austria is neither a big country nor especially advanced.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 10:03:29 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on October 13, 2015, 06:40:57 amAs the former founder and CEO of OzEmail, yes, he's the "tech savvy" one of the lot

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 10:10:54 am
content: Dave, I don't think you appreciate the amazing hassle of rolling out fiber to the kerb. I was living in Manchester when Nynex cabled the city and I watched as they dug up every street so that they could lay their green conduit in preparation for the cables. The disruption was terrible and the traffic problems were annoying beyond belief. Thankfully the job only needed to be done once and as technology improved the coax was taken out and replaced by fiber by using the old cables to pull through the new but even now, decades later, you can still see the scars on the pavements where the work was done.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 10:17:44 am
content: I was just reading a couple of newspaper articles where in some rural areas the fibre optic cable that was being laid as part of the NBN roll out was being destroyed by rats chewing through it, apparently they have now remedied the situation.Drats, drats and hungry rats........Muttley

author: lwatts666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 10:48:45 am
content: The quoted connections are 'ready for service', not actual signed up customers. Put fibre into the basement of a unit complex and score 100+ 'ready for service' connections with nearly the same effort as as a single house/factory.I guess this is what happens when your bonus/job/credibility depended only on a 'ready for service' KPIs...

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 10:53:08 am
content: Quote from: German_EE on October 13, 2015, 10:10:54 amThen again,they do things like that in the UK.(leaving the "scar",I mean).In Perth WA,back in the 1970s,when they replaced the old "rubber tube" type traffic light sensors with sensor loops,they removed the old mechanism,buried the loops,& restored the road surface.In Southampton,UK,they cut a slot in the road,inserted the loop & filled the slot with bitumen.They left the old sensors in place.After some time,they tore,so there was a length of tubing flopping around on the roadway.Of course,they then had to go back & remove the old sensors---still left the "scar",though!!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 11:14:29 am
content: Quote from: German_EE on October 13, 2015, 10:10:54 amI do. I'm complaining about the governments almost total lack of focus in rolling it out to business parks.Not to mention buildings like mine thatalreadyhave fibre going to them from several vendors whoare NBN providers. I don't know how that works logistically and infrastructure wise, but fibre is fibre.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 12:25:28 pm
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on October 13, 2015, 10:17:44 amObviously they have used the wrong cable. Next time buy one with rodent protection. Yes, it's a little bit more expensive.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 12:40:34 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 13, 2015, 11:14:29 amI wouldn't have expected anything else. If the NBN would be also intended for businesses you would have the government in the left corner and all telcos/ISPs in the right oneBusiness parks/streets/districts are the primary focus of telcos. They can't make much money with some residents.I don't know how much a metro LAN connection costs in Sidney, but if it's much less than a business 100Mbit/s internet access you could look for a place which got NBN and metro LAN

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 12:40:51 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on October 13, 2015, 10:10:54 amWow. They put fiber along every street in my neighborhood (and most others in the area) several years ago. There was very little physical disruption because they used "Ditch Witch" horizontal drilling machines under the sidewalk, and only opened up a small section of sidewalk about every 50m.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 12:50:23 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on October 13, 2015, 12:40:51 pmWorks mostly for rural areas without much utilities. In cities there is no way without digging. In Frankfurt, for example, are some streets where you can find 10 or even more conduits just for fiber, besides telephone, power, gas, water, sewage and so on. Digging in a city costs about EUR 1000 per meter.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 12:52:59 pm
content: This rant sounds to me as the old I-want-X-so-the-government-should-provide-it-to-me.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 12:58:33 pm
content: Quote from: 5ky on October 13, 2015, 03:02:30 amThree words:MicrowaveRadioLink

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 01:00:19 pm
content: Quote from: minionkevin on October 13, 2015, 04:55:33 amYup, plus they don't want to mess with the big corporate IPSs.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 01:03:05 pm
content: Quote from: madires on October 13, 2015, 12:50:23 pmHorizontal boring is used everywhere in my region. In downtown as well as out along country roads (or cross-country).All buried utilities are required to be "detectable" (typically with a conductor buried along with non-conductive pipe/fiber/whatever.) And utilities are required to be able to locate and mark their locations on-demand. And we are required to call the underground locating service to come out and mark everything BEFORE we can dig more than a few cm into the ground. When they installed fiber to my house, the utility locator service come out before and marked where the water, gas, and electric underground utility feeds were. Spray paint on the ground/pavement/lawn. Red for power, yellow for gas, blue for water, etc.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 01:22:01 pm
content: That is very neat, I like it.You don't see many conduits buried in Santo Domingo. It's mostly utility poles, managed by the electricity company. They are the ones that give ISPs and telecom companies space for their cables.That said, I have seen fiber being buried. Not that disruptive as digging a freaking metro or tunnel (and at a slow pace!). The Metro is done, thankfully, and its awesome. Fiber usually creates some local congestion but that's it. Oh and you don't hear about it, you just stumble upon the traffic bottleneck and then discover it's one of the ISPs.

author: Throy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 01:27:05 pm
content: Quote from: madires on October 13, 2015, 12:50:23 pmI wish they had something in the rural areas by me. I'm stuck with the Telekom Hybrid shit on a 2MBit DSL line. The LTE only works in the middle of the night and during the day I only get the speed of my landline. My upload is usually at least two times faster as my download.

author: LA7SJA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 02:50:41 pm
content: Outskirts of Oslo Norway, 30/30 fiber 17 AUD/month (100/100 50.8 AUD). We buried fiber by volunteers around the condominium so that all 384 apartments now has 6 fiber cables into each apartment. Two for internet 3 for television channels and one spare, and we own the infrastructure itself and can negotiate line prices on behalf of more than 1,000 apartments in 3 condominium and more vill join us soon. The fiber and switsches did not cost that much more than only the new TV cables we were forced to install by f... EU shit regulations. Crimes dosn't pay, if the government runs them.Johan-Fredrik

author: cmpxchg
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 05:01:52 pm
content: That map is utterly confusing. How can you have fiber in a bunch of isolated little spots all over the city? You need fiber returning to some sort of backend to provide the actual bandwidth. On that basis, you would expect much larger spots to be covered.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 05:43:13 pm
content: Quote from: cmpxchg on October 13, 2015, 05:01:52 pmThe classic design is to build fiber rings and to connect a building/block/business park to that ring. Which technology is used for NBN's fiber based internet access? GPON? In that case you would place an OLT at a central spot to serve an area. For residential areas mostly street cabinets are used, for business parks it would be a room in a central building. Large buildings often got a dedicated unit. The OLT is backhauled via the local fiber ring to the telco's data center or PoP.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 05:51:17 pm
content: That's so cute. I thought only our government was talking about "supporting the small business" while doing the opposite.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 06:08:41 pm
content: Serious question, is there a link between the east coast and the west coast?When i was in Australia in 2010-ish, people told me that internet between Sydney and Perth was only via cables going to Americas to Europe to Asia to west coast, all the way around the planet.Was that the case, and is it still?

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 07:38:54 pm
content: Quote from: madires on October 13, 2015, 12:25:28 pmI have see samples of SWA multicore fiber which was eaten through by rats. It was used in an airforce base to link the control tower with radar.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 08:52:07 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 13, 2015, 01:32:09 amWas it really? I mean REALLY? From what I remember from the very start NBN process was hijacked by Telstra execs getting a say in it. You are building a National Fiber network with DATA CAPS on INTERNAL TRAFFIC. All arguments about congested expensive international undersea cables go right out the window. This is beyond stupid, the only reason that comes to mind is trying to preserve incumbent profits (Telstra? expensive cellular plans?). Together with US you are third world countries when it comes to internet connectivity. Its especially funny because every time this subject crops up I hear about population density, I can get fast cheap internet in middle of bumbfck nowhere in EU, while you pay $400 for 20Mbit in Sydney, biggest and probably densest city in AU?For a comparison in Poland/Romania its normal to get a small EU grand (couple million euro), build small (<100km) fiber ring network and connect as many clients as you can get your hands on at symmetric 1GBit/~20euro a pop, no data caps obviously. This is probably mainly possible due to mandatory sharing requirements for incumbent infrastructure in UE.You dont limit people to two ice cream scoops in the summer, you bring second ice cream van and sell twice as much. Internet is not a scarce resource, data caps are clearly only an instrument of protectionism. Sane people faced with reaching capacity limit simply upgrade (one time cost) so they can service more clients (recurring profit). Insane systems (at&t) cherish capacity limits, because it gives them power over artificially scarce resource.Your problem appears to be of political nature. I bet your park has direct fiber connection with NBN, but why bother cannibalizing profits?/boasting modeBtw right now in capital I have access to two hybrid fiber networks (last mile cable, fiber ring backbone). Old one 250/20 $24/m and 120/10 $16/m, new one 300/10 Mbit $16/m. There are also business 150/20 at $25 and 300/30 at $50 plans with SLA (still over hybrid network), plus dedicated up to 10Gbit direct fiber offerings for big business. Of course there are more than a few ADSL/VDSL providers sharing incumbent telephone lines too. Fastest VDSL2 offering is a ridiculous, and unattainable due to cable quality and length requirements, 600/60 Mbit VDSL2 at $25. Everything slower is cheaper, 100/10 is ~$18.Did I mention we have free wireless internet? 2011 LTE frequency allocation auction had a provision mandating winner to providefree512kbit UMTS 900MHz internet for 3 years after reaching 50% coverage milestone, and LTE 2.6GHz for 3 years after reaching 75% coverage milestone. It is currently estimated this free internet will be available up to 2019 :-). Of course there are limits (disconnect every 60 minutes, captcha, yet still NO DATA CAPS), but it is free and available everywhere.https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&u=http://jdtech.pl/2011/09/aero2-najczesciej-zadawane-pytania.htmlps: you accidentally EEVblog #805 onwww.eevblog.com

author: pedake
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 09:35:42 pm
content: Just watched that video...HOLY SH**!! I would never have thought that Australia is so underdeveloped internet wise...This is SO expensive!I am quite curious about the reasons for these unbelievable prices. (?)Even our offices in Tajikistan in Central Asia's nowhere have 50/10 Mbit/s for some 150 USD for commercial users!I have a 1 Gbit symmetricalhttps://www.swisscom.ch/en/residential/internet/offers.html

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 09:42:51 pm
content: Romanian here... I pay ~ 26$ / 23 euro for 500 mbps down / 25 mbps up cable internet without caps and speed limits , plus digital tv and phone. Proof is here :http://www.upc.ro/internet/abonamente/(1 $ = ~ 3.9 lei)Though I think Romania is somewhat of a special case... in big cities a few smart teens bought business internet plans (very expensive) and installed network cable in apartment buildings and split that single business internet plan with several families for a small profit. From there, it moved on to connecting several apartment buildings with regular network cable to make small gaming networks and help with file sharing and with more subscribers the owners of these networks also upgraded the internet to keep people happy.They used the electricity poles and paid small fees to connect these neighborhood networks and as they extended they also started to use fiber to improve speeds (otherwise they'd lose customers to other neighbor networks).Basically, these semi-pro networks paved the way for the current internet service providers which gradually bought all these small networks and gradually replaced the amateurish infrastructure with proper fiber and more reliable equipment.A lot of fiber is still on electricity poles but it's gradually and slowly moved underground.

author: eV1Te
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 10:49:46 pm
content: I found this nice comparison of the prices that cloudflare pays for their lines in all of the continents:https://blog.cloudflare.com/the-relative-cost-of-bandwidth-around-the-world/Australia is 20x more expensive than Europe and 12x more expensive than USA. They also mention that Telstra is the most expensive ISP in the world!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 10:51:36 pm
content: Quote from: pedake on October 13, 2015, 09:35:42 pmIn the EU you will also find that a business internet connection will be just as expensive. It has to do with the amount of data (likely to be more) and guaranteed availability. Fortunately you can get consumer internet connections for sane prices in many places. So all Dave has to do is get fiber to his home and then build a link to his business using 2 directional Wifi antennas.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 11:02:54 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 13, 2015, 10:58:57 pmYes AUD$40000It is not a joke.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 11:12:07 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 13, 2015, 11:02:54 pmHave you tried looking at satellite internet prices?I've seen someone videoblogging from Siberian wilderness with a car-mounted dish, that cost him a few thousand $ in equipment and traffic for the whole multi-month expedition.Then again, you might not have the same satellites in the southern hemisphere, and he might have had some kind of advertisement bonuses...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 11:19:34 pm
content: Quote from: pedake on October 13, 2015, 09:35:42 pmA Telstra monopoly.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 11:21:39 pm
content: Quote from: Artlav on October 13, 2015, 11:12:07 pmNo.People in my building complain about the reliability of the BigAir wireless dish on the roof that only has to go a few hundred meters to the data hub a few streets away.I need a rock solid reliable connection, that means fibre.

author: 5ky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 12:08:17 am
content: Relevant:http://www.itnews.com.au/news/australian-internet-fails-pigeon-test-159232spoiler: a carrier pigeon transferred data faster than telestra

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 12:23:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 13, 2015, 11:19:34 pmLooking at their prices here, $55 to $83 USD/monthhttps://www.telstra.com.au/broadband/home-broadband#

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 02:11:37 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 13, 2015, 11:19:34 pmNow we're talking.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 02:23:29 am
content: Quote from: zapta on October 14, 2015, 12:23:36 aminteresting, for me it displays $75-115and no connection parameters other than data capI think this all might boil down to Australian culture of gouging for everything. Historically you have been far away from everything so at first it made perfect sense to charge more for spice, shovels and chocolate. But times have changed. How come ipad sold in AU is more expensive than same ipad that has travelled additional 10000km to US? Makes even less sense for digital goods. Didnt you have a Parliamentary inquiry about this? Did anything change?

author: 6581
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 02:28:28 am
content: Quote from: 5ky on October 14, 2015, 12:08:17 amBack in the days availability was a hit and miss, but carrier pigeon technology has evolved and is now a real option in places like Australia. Dave should really consider switching to IP over Avian Carriers protocol (https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt). Sure it has some lag, but it's reliable. Not sure about international connections though, may be a bit too seasonal.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 03:05:39 am
content: Quote from: ivan747 on October 14, 2015, 02:11:37 amTelstra is required by legislation to sell its services to its competitors cheaply enough that they can then onsell it to the mugs OOPS!---customers,& make a profit.I'd like to sell burgers---I wonder if I can get the same deal from McDonald's?This raises the question:If they can sell cheaply to their "competitors" why can't they sell it to me for that price?Answer: They are not allowed to---that would be anti-competitive!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 03:13:35 am
content: Quote from: Artlav on October 13, 2015, 06:08:41 pmPeople in the Eastern States haven't a clue about Western Australia!There have been fibre cables between the East & West coasts for decades.Before that,there were terrestrial microwave links & satellites.

author: 5ky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 06:33:54 am
content: Quote from: 6581 on October 14, 2015, 02:28:28 amYour ping would be a quite high, but with these super dense 128GB SD cards, and a pigeon's ability to potentially carry several TB worth of those--I think pigeons are still king for raw throughputWatch out google fiber!

author: TheDefpom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 06:38:08 am
content: Wow, those prices are horrendous !The big companies seem to have held onto their 1990's prices where only the rich and massive companys would have fibre!I am on wireless broadband in NZ, I get actual speeds of 25Mb/20Mb on that, for NZ$150, with 200GB of data !

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 10:56:27 am
content: Quote from: eV1Te on October 13, 2015, 10:49:46 pmBasic fact of life:-A similar population to Taiwan,living in a country roughly the same in area as the contiguous States of the USA.It cost the same amount to build a backbone Network as it does for a more populous country of the same size,& more than for a more populous smaller country.There are less people to pay for it.

author: tindel
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 12:58:55 pm
content: I just got a job in Longmont, CO. We are planning on moving into a neighborhood that has 1Gbps fiber directly to the house... for $50/month for charter members (charter membership is transferable to new homeowners). This is unheard of in the states. I had to call them to make sure it wasn't a lie. Sure enough... the rumors were true. Check it out yourself. Most routers don't support this speed! There are a few reviews online of people getting like 300Mbps or something like that because they can't go fast enough.1G up and down by the way!Even if the house I get into doesn't have the charter membership then the cost is still only $100 and it goes DOWN to $60 after one year.http://longmontcolorado.gov/departments/departments-e-m/longmont-power-communications/broadband-serviceI currently pay $53 a month for 3Mbps Crapcast service. I can't wait to change services!

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 01:58:30 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on October 14, 2015, 10:56:27 amthere we go again)I can get fiber 1GB for 20 euro in the middle of a FORREST in Polish mountains (seriously), while Dave cant get decently priced one (read below 40K for instalation) in your BIGGEST and DENSEST city, so cut the bullshit.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 02:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 13, 2015, 11:21:39 pmI expect a retranslation dish is not the same as having a direct line to the sky, so it might be worth re-considering.Checked out the numbers...The best uplink i could find is 5 Mbit/s (20 down), for $5 a month, and $500 equipment price.Not exactly stellar, but maybe you would find something better in your hemisphere?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 04:07:45 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on October 14, 2015, 01:58:30 pmThere are two major problems:1. Big fat telcos which want to make as much money as possible with there old copper wire telephone networks. Laying fiber is expensive and a huge investment2. The telco needs a positive ROI to stay in business. If connecting an typical single famiily house via fiber costs EUR 5000 how could EUR 20/month create a ROI? Connecting a multi tenant building for the same EUR 5000 creates a revenue of 30 times EUR 20/month = 600/month (just an example).A lot of the old copper wire telephone networks are financed by taxes. After the privatization of telcos they need to have a business case. There is only sound way to close that gap. The municipals have to take tax money and build local fiber distribution networks. The telcos connect their backbones to the distribution networks via cost effective central offices and pay the municipal a rent for the last mile.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 07:27:45 pm
content: I'm always complaining about the Internet here in Belgium. It is like the 19 century, you have data limit, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to get more than 30 Mbit, residential. When the biggest provider told me that the plan they are selling has a 100GB cap, I laughed and walked out of the door.Meanwhile the EU broadband strategy is OK:"EU being covered nationwide by broadband above 30 Mbps by 2020 and 50% of the EU to be subscribed to broadband above 100 Mbps by 2020""10% increase in broadband penetration brings up the GDP by 1-1.5%"Yes thank you very much, you should be indeed pouring money into the internet infrastructure. Which they are doing, 315 Billion EUR the next 3 years. I have no idea how, but east EU cities have by far is the cheapest and fastest Internet speeds, 15 EUR gigabit is normal.It really feels like any telecommunication company is just charging some arbitrary number they pulled out their asses.

author: g0hjq
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 07:31:18 pm
content: Hi Dave,In the UK, I think most of the major cities and towns are completely covered by one or two fibre providers.I live in a residential suburb of Manchester and get Virgin Media 200/12Mb unlimited broadband, unlimited telephone calls and about 300 channels of TV for £80 (AU$170) per monthIt's fibre to the cabinet at the end of the street, then 2x twisted pairs and 2 coaxes to the house. It seems to work well, and is completely reliable, but speeds do drop by 50% or more at peak times.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 12:50:11 am
content: NBN = No Bloody NetworkI predicted way back in1984that fibre-optic connectivity between premises in this vast country with a relatively low population would be far too expensive and slow to implement. That was virtually before the internet existed and before most people had ever seen or used a computer. Not surprisingly, the NBN has become a cost blow-out disaster, and too slow to implement. Our illustrious politicians failed to predict this just a few short years ago. I am not supposed to be as switched on as our politicians and am paid accordingly. In 1993 I predicted the lack bandwidth will be a big controversial issue for country people, but our politicians and media were asleep a the wheel. Nothing on the radar until another 10 years. Helen Coonan, our Minister of Communications and Information Technology demonstrated live on TV on at least two occasions she did not even know what bandwidth was.As for the NBN, I suggest you look at 4G. Get yourself a decent cross polarised antenna and point it to a decent service provider...www.telcoantennas.com.auis a great resource and their antenna prices are attractive.If anyone moves office or home one of the first things to consider is what broadband connectivity is available. At home I get 120Mb/s download, 500GB/month allocation, phone rental, unlimited local calls etc for $80 per month (from Telstra) on cable, so I am not interested in NBN, ADLS2, dialup, 3G, 4G or 5G. I would never go back to ADSL2. I am as happy as a pig in the proverbial.In any case, FTTN was the better decision, not FTTH. Forget copper. Local FTTN LIPDs will be the cheaper and the faster way to go.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 02:20:39 am
content: "Helen Coonan, our Minister of Communications and Information Technology demonstrated live on TV on at least two occasions she did not even know what bandwidth was.""Bandwidth" is like happiness in the old song,"different things to different people"To those of us who were brought up in the era when you actually learnt stuff,instead of just being "tech savvy",it means "occupied frequency spectrum".This had a direct relationship to data rate--a 5MHz bandwidth bearer could carry signals with frequency components out to 5MHz.It always meant "occupied spectrum",though!With technical developments in modulation techniques,frequency compression,& so on,it became possible to send material which previously occupied a much wider spectrum in a much narrower bandwidth.Computer people,never backward at stuffing up old established terminology,seized upon the term "bandwidth" to refer to the "virtual bandwidth" of the compressed signal,or "what you could send down it".People trying to refer to what we happily used to call "bandwidth" have to say "occupied spectrum",because the "tech savvy " generation will get confused.So,what is bandwidth?

author: arekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 06:40:30 pm
content: ubiquiti wireless equipment (ubiquiti power beam for example;https://www.ubnt.com/airmax/powerbeam-ac/) is cheap enough to try it out if you have someone with good internet connection in direct straight line with no obstacles in middle (up to 25/30km). Using here on shorter ranges and it is very reliable.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 09:19:59 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on October 15, 2015, 02:20:39 amI think bandwidth is fmax - fmin, not an actual section in the spectrum (that would be a band).

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 09:38:50 pm
content: Well Dave, there's an announcement in 20 minutes about NBN new rollout plans and timetable.Don't hold your breath...

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 10:04:49 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on October 15, 2015, 12:50:11 amNot a bad idea actually.

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 10:17:12 pm
content: Quote from: DrGeoff on October 15, 2015, 09:38:50 pmAnd, as expected, still nothing in the new plan to even start thinking about rolling it out here in the next 3 years.I doubt we'll see it before 2025, if ever.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 01:25:48 am
content: Quote from: zapta on October 15, 2015, 09:19:59 pmThat is why the term "bandwidth" being stolen & given another meaning makes it difficult."Occupied frequency spectrum" implies "fmax - fmin" to me,but I can see that it can equally mean "which section of spectra is used".The classic meaning of "bandwidth"wasunambiguous,till they messed with it!

author: MobileWill
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2015, 07:51:00 pm
content: Wow that is insane. I would of never guessed it would cost so much. Here in California I get 120/20 for like $70/mo USD from Comcast. Little envious of people who get 1Gb! That would be sweet except that most websites can't even transmit that fast to you but should help with latency.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2015, 02:50:10 am
content: http://www.nbnco.com.au/learn-about-the-nbn/three-year-construction-plan.htmlHere is their deployment plan. Turns out im getting HFC 2nd half next year. Despite flats across road already having something? (new build).What sucks is that their is already (foxtel) cable in my street. I had it 10 years ago.I live 500m walk from exchange, and get 14mb sync adsl2. Suspect house wiring might be the issue. Should be able to get 24mbit at this distance.

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2015, 03:36:12 am
content: Sadly this appears to be the cost-cutting strategy. If you have coax in your street you weill probably remain connected to that, with all the shared-bandwidth limitations. And they will probably try and charge you more for less than what you already have.

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2015, 01:49:05 pm
content: Looks like we are getting it next year. Telstra already have fibre to RIM's in our area so it should be straight forward cut over with residence only if Telstra release their fibre.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 12:39:57 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on October 15, 2015, 02:20:39 amI heard our outsourced IT guy say more than once, "You've run out of bandwidth." What he meant to say was "You've reached your monthly limit on the volume of of data you can receive or transmit." I kindly explained to him what bandwidth is, without offending him. Other than that, he is actually a very good IT person compared to most of them - good advice, always responsive.Helen Coonan said on the ABC's 7:30 report something along the lines of, "The country gets one megabit and the city gets two megabits."

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 01:31:18 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on November 02, 2015, 12:39:57 pmI don't think it's that simple. When someone says "1MHz bandwidth", it's clear it's about some signal with a bandwidth of 1MHz. The signal occupies 1MHz in the frequency domain. That could be 0-1MHz or 20-21MHz for example. In the network world it's bps. So we can say that a bandwidth of 1Mbps occupies 1Mbps in the bps domain. It's literally the same way of thinking as for the frequency domain. Take a channelized E1 for example. It got 32 timeslots with 64kbps each. When your 64kbps line is multiplexed into the E1 you might got timeslot #10, i.e. your line occupies the bandwidth between timeslots #9 and #11, i.e. 640-704 kbps.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 08:38:27 pm
content: Bandwidth also have another meaning as in the resources available to do a task.Someone can say "We (as a group) don't have enough bandwidth (resources) to take into a new project"Bad usage of the original meaning? maybe, but it is common use. So when someone says that you've run out of bandwidth they really are saying you are out of resources for the task at hand.Myself I don't find it confusing since bandwidth, in the frequency domain, relates to frequencies (resources) available per unit of time.All of them are time related but one is more instant limits per short unit of time (what you don't use is gone) the other is a cap limit per longer unit of time (what you don't use is gone as well)

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 11:14:24 pm
content: Everyone keeps complaining about the city areas that need NBN, but what about the areas that barely have ADSL1 services?Those city areas have options, starting with ADSL2 to Fibre, but up here in the Blue Mountains, if you are lucky you might get ADSL2+, but for most of us we only have ADSL1. My work relies on the internet, and the last two days have been an absolute nightmare for me as I had to upload a 2.1GiB file for work. This took me18 hours.... that is 18 hours I just have to sit and twiddle my thumbs for.Honestly Dave, you are lucky to be in an area where fibre is an option despite the cost. I would gladly pay a premium for fibre in the BM if it was an option.

author: TomS_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2015, 10:51:44 pm
content: Quote from: Artlav on October 13, 2015, 06:08:41 pmOld post I know, but total rubbish and has never been the case.There are 2 companies that have cables across the Nullarbor Plain: Telstra, Nextgen, and I think there used to be a 3rd that was bought out by Telstra. So at least 3 cables anyway, with Telstra having diversity.Telstra also has alternate routes via the north, but they have the means and necessity to do so.Preceeding optical fibre, Telstra had microwave across the Nullarbor, rolled out in the 60's or 70's or thereabouts. Prior to even that they had some satellite capacity (late in the game) along side open wire carriers.So who ever told you that we have to go the long way around just to get from one side of the country to the other just has no clue about what they are talking about.For the future there are murmurings of a submarine cable to connect the west and east coasts, with potential for spurs to Adelaide, Melbourne and Hobart. Thats being planned by SubPartners and is called APX Central, and would form part of a larger system connecting Asia and the US to Australias west and east coasts respectively.

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2015, 11:07:30 pm
content: Quote from: TomS_ on December 22, 2015, 10:51:44 pmPlus we also have the long piece of string with a Milo tin at each end. In case of intense solar flare activity

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2015, 01:08:59 am
content: Quote from: TomS_ on December 22, 2015, 10:51:44 pmQuoteSo somewhere in the 1930s they replaced the telegraph with voice-grade telephone lines?Eight repeater stations! Presumably, essentially what we would call a "relay" today. (Is that where it got the name?)How were they powered? Did somebody have to take batteries out to the stations on horseback every week?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2015, 02:37:50 am
content: Quote from: gnif on November 04, 2015, 11:14:24 pmIn your line of business I don't know why you'd tolerate crap internet. That would be reason for me to move!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2015, 07:11:31 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on December 23, 2015, 01:08:59 amThe original East-West Telegraph link was built before Federation,when,in effect,the States were different countries.The Repeater Station at Eucla,on the SA/WA border,for instance,had two separate operating stations on either side of a large room.For a Westbound message,the South Oz guy would read the Morse Code coming in,write it down,& pass it to the WA guy,who would send it on,& vice versa.The Telegraphists,& their families lived in houses associated with the station.This is how Line Telegraphy was done in the early days,& these were very early days,indeedYes,this is exactly where the term "Relay" comes from.Although,the Electrical Relay had been invented,& ultimately,did allow unattended "repeater stations". it was not immediately adopted throughout the world.The pressure to do this was not as great in Australia,& the American West,as in Europe,& the more populated East of the USA.After all,if you had to station Linesmen at remote places to keep the line operating,why not keep the tried & true Operators?Batteries,& indeed,other essentials were usually brought by sea,as most of the old Telegraph stations on the East-West Telegraph were near the coast.The Trans Australia Railway was completed in 1917,& a new set of telegraph lines were run alongside that,with unattended repeaters,using Electromagnetic relays.The old East-West line finally closed in 1927,according to Wiki.(another Wiki page)I would suggest it was mainly used as a standby system for the last few years of its existence.I guess,the Phone lines would have been installed in the 1930s,or so.By the time I had any interest in the "new" E-W lines,they carried Multichannel voice systems,& VFT Telegraph systems.The Long Line guys were pretty good at cramming channels onto a couple of pairs of wire!We had a ISB HF Radio backup system for the E-W landline,where I worked.It had four speech channels & two VFT Telegraph channels,but it was not an adequate backup for the landline.At the time,"the writing was on the wall",for both systems,as the East-West microwave system came into being.opening in 1969.Interestingly,the microwave system fairly closely followed the route of the original E-W Telegraph line.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2015, 08:04:24 am
content: Microwave following the lines is simple, no need for additional rights of way, and the differences are just from not needing to follow contours of land, so only going from high point to high point. That is why telephone and such also went along railway lines and power lines, if they were owned by the same company. Other companies also would rent the additional space in the right of way for the same reason, it is much cheaper.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2015, 08:50:49 am
content: Nope! The Microwave link followed the route of theoriginalTelegraph line,hugging the South coast,as does the Eyre Highway.The Trans train line & the second East West Telegraph line went straight across the "guts" of the country!Following the train track made sense,as the "Eyre Highway" was nothing but a goat track in 1917.The train made access to the line easy at the time,just as the road did for the Microwave,later.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2015, 04:09:41 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 23, 2015, 08:04:24 amOne of the large communication providers here in the US grew directly out of the previous-century railroad business. Sprint started out as the Southern-Pacific Railroad communication operation. Very early in the history of optical fibre, they installed major links along their rail rights-of-way.Eucla has a very interesting history. Apparently it was the largest telegraph station outside a capitol city in Australia. Telegraphy appears to be one of the larger employers in the village. And the relay point was apparently necessitated by half the continent using International Morse (as used today) and the other half using Victorian/old US Morse code. So the operators had to write messages and then hand them to other operators to "re-key" them on to the destination.And then there was the rabbit invasion that ended up creating sand dunes that "ate" the town in the best tradition of "B-grade" horror movies. And then there was the "Nullarbor Nymph" sensation/hoax. And we thought all those things were a modern invention!http://members.iinet.net.au/~oseagram/eucla.html

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 10:23:59 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 23, 2015, 02:37:50 amProblem is businesses don't exist only where "good internet"* exists. Businesses exist where their customers are.I can think of several businesses where being local is vital, despite need to fast internet. What about accountants, tax agents, real estate.You're only half right about Telstra though, the monopoly is 50%, the other 50% is they have never really accepted that supply of internet connections are just as important as telephone. They have been dragging their feet since the early 90's. The old "no one needs more than 640KB".I too have am crippled by ADSL1 speeds, with capped upload on top. 8/0.33 is BS in this day and age.NBNco started field work in my street 4 years ago to install fibre, they also ran 8Km of fibre through the suburb to feed new estates in my suburb. So naturally I'm getting FTTN bullshit, as Turnbull and the council dicked with NBNco's design/financal rules to ensure the expensive suburb got done instead.* Quote from Turnbull himself, when he was trying to spin his watered down NBN.

author: ehtkhr
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 03:50:43 am
content: If you are in a business park there should be non-NB fibre running past your 'front door', you should just need to pay for the fibre to be run in to your lot (it could set you back $tens of thoudands) I think the government really wanted to aim the NBN at the country where they don't have any decent Internet connectivity (with broadband not being available due to the distances between the houses and the switch). NOOOOOWWWWW, this all went to pot when they looked at the real cost of providing the fibre to the door of every farm in Australia and went for 'wireless broadband'. They then started looking for some quick wins by getting some 'on net' places on the NBN. From what I can see now is, if the builder is prepared to foot the cost of getting NBN into the estate or building they put it in as a sweetener to pull in new buyers otherwise they are concentrating on their POC locations or out lying areas. Don't hold your breath for business parks and the like (unless they have fitted out the local switch (POP) for NBN and everyone in the park gets together to foot the bill for the cabling).