Beginner looking for info on freelancing possibilities - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: embeddedguy85
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 02:46:18 pm
content: I want to go into firmware programming and electronics as a career. Im not exactly young (33) so this will be a risky career change.Questions are:1) What kind of freelance gigs can someone get in this area?2) Is working remote for a company a real possibility?3) Is demand growing due to the IOT trend?Any information you can give me would be very appreciated and could save me a lot of time and mistakes.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 05:00:11 pm
content: "Beginner" and "freelancer" are sort of mutually exclusive.A customer wants to see references before he even thinks of giving you a job. Which means some or many years employed in the industry, where you can point at successes during your career. "Yeah, the xxxxx and the zzzzz from company yyyyy are my designs, you might have seen them."Noone is going to hire you because of the light in your eyes.

author: embeddedguy85
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 05:43:19 pm
content: Of course I dont mean getting a job AS a beginner. I want to know which projects I should work on so my projecta align with what the market wants.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 06:02:56 pm
content: Working *completely* remote is pretty damn hard. Most of the time people want to see your face from time to time. And often for good reason. Some things are just smoother/faster/better in person.And because there are always people willing to show up 5 days out of 7 even doing a part of your job remotely means you'd better either be pretty damn good or pretty damn cheap.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 07:06:44 pm
content: It might be better for your overall state of mind and health if you keep on doing the things you gravitate to as a hobby, get better and better at them, and then if one of them turns out to lead to a job, be pleasantly surprised.If you currently have a job I would not change jobs without a new job lined up.Many people have an impression of computing work as easy. Nothing could be less true. Its also very stressful at certain times, because you may really need to finish some thing and you and your team may be expected to work pretty much all the time until its done. That means that if you're working on site, you may need to put in very long hours, how long? its smart to keep a sleeping bag, a clean set of clothes, a towel and a set of toiletries, shaving kit, toothbrush, toothpaste.. etc. at work. As well as a supply of good quality protein.. (protein bars, or similar, and other instant foods)Most computing workplaces also have showers and kitchens, and they often encourage people to basically almost live there.Also, even so, when you work from home you are often working much more time wise than if you were on site!When a project is nearing completion you might essentially be working "all the time" when you are not sleeping or eating (often at your workstation). You often might not get to have weekends like normal people do. Instead you might work the equivalent of a twelve hour day for weeks at a time (rarely more than a month or two) basically tied to your computer and phone, when a project is demanding it. (Other times it may also be relatively slow- you may even have time to go shopping, do your long overdue laundry, hang out with a friend, go out on a date or catch a movie.)Maybe hardware is different. If so, great for it and its workforce.Quote from: embeddedguy85 on October 01, 2017, 02:46:18 pm

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 07:13:59 pm
content: The ones that are going to be wildly successful, of course.. (/satire)Quote from: embeddedguy85 on October 01, 2017, 05:43:19 pm

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 08:04:01 pm
content: I get the feeling that the distinction between "Freelance" and "Home office" is not really clear on the OP's part.Embeddedguy85, you need to be clear about which you'd like to be.My answer was based on the "freelance" in your headline.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 08:10:33 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on October 01, 2017, 07:06:44 pmAnd it will ruin a perfectly good hobby.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 08:18:20 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 01, 2017, 08:10:33 pmCynical, but unfortunately true in most cases...

author: Johncanfield
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 08:38:47 pm
content: Do you have any formal education in electronics? Do you have good math and analytical skills?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 09:20:37 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on October 01, 2017, 08:18:20 pmWhen I was young, all I wanted to do was go fast and perhaps add a few left turns. I worked on cars day and night. I loved working on cars! My cars!At one point, I went to work as a mechanic in a dealership where I got to work on cars all day long and late on Thursday night. When the engines were still hot. After a year of this nonsense, I walked away from working on cars forever. I have done darn little since. Maybe an starter or alternator every once in awhile but I haven't pulled an engine in since the early '70s.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 10:03:33 pm
content: Quote from: embeddedguy85 on October 01, 2017, 02:46:18 pmDoes "this area" mean freelancing embedded device hardware/software engineering?Or do you mean some geographic location?If "this area" is Silicon Valley or some other concentration of technology, that is one thing.But if "this area" means West Undershirt, Wyoming, it seems unlikely.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 11:42:11 pm
content: I did not read any inference of geography in that at all.This was my understanding:Quote from: Richard Crowley on October 01, 2017, 10:03:33 pm

author: embeddedguy85
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 03:32:00 pm
content: I meant in the area of embedded firmware. I dont have any formal training. No degree at all. Some college but never completed.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 04:10:26 pm
content: Well, the fact is, it may be possible but I suspect it would likely be very difficult for a person, young or old, to convince people of their skill-set without completed projects. The question then would be what project to do, how does one pick the right thing to do. I think it comes down to your gut feelings. Some problem you know you can help solve better than others could. Maybe they don't even understand why its a problem, or even that this need exists. But you do. Many people have no shortage of ideas. But are they good ideas? Often, not so much. But many are. Do they then turn them into reality?There are still lots of self taught people in electronics related fields working professionally.Jim Williams, who died a few years ago, was one of the greatest analog engineers - he was self taught.People like that are superstars. irregardless of credentials.It seems to me that focusing on a particular niche is what opens doors like nothing else. If you can become an expert in some specific area and really make waves in it.That happens a lot in the sciences. A particular person becomes the go to person in a specific field for a knowledge domain.If you love a field that will help a lot in getting that good at it!So, if you really love some nice in embedded development a great deal, and do it a lot, there is definitely hope you could get paid to do it. But make sure you have stuff to show people thats yours.

author: igendel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 05:00:10 pm
content: I started playing with microcontrollers as a hobby about 6 years ago (when I was 34), and wrote a lot about my experiences in a blog, on local forums etc. I may be a small fish but fortunately, my pond is also small...so slowly but surely, people started contacting me for advice or development jobs. I had a few mishaps at first when I took jobs where I was out of my depth, or that required more time than I actually had, but I learned to assess these matters better and now it's at a level of a nice side job. Not enough by itself to make a living yet, but it keeps improving.I certainly did not lose interest - the diversity of the jobs I get (from students, entrepreneurs, HW engineers) is actually quite stimulating.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 05:18:11 pm
content: I was just going to suggest that posting projects online (YouTube, etc.) and especially systems analysis, design process, implementation tradeoffs, debugging, design-for-manufacturability, etc. would be quite a benefit to showing potential customers/ employers your skill level, etc. And then @gendel posted exactly that experience.

author: embeddedguy85
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 05:52:07 pm
content: One issue that concerns me but I keep avoiding because Im afraid of the answer is: How long would it take to get skilled enough to perform the freelance jobs which are available? Ignoring my client flow or personal marketing and only thinking of skills, if I worked hard for 8 hours per day for one year could I do this as a full time career?

author: igendel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 05:59:19 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on October 05, 2017, 05:18:11 pmIndeed. Also, you don't have to reach expert levels to get jobs - some clients only need a small simple PCB, not a full-blown PC motherboard

author: embeddedguy85
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 06:06:47 pm
content: Quote from: igendel on October 05, 2017, 05:59:19 pmThank you! So glad to hear that.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 06:41:58 pm
content: There are a number of developments in the pipeline which make the future impossible to predict.

author: embeddedguy85
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 06:53:03 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on October 05, 2017, 06:41:58 pmExplain...

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 08:09:53 pm
content: Well, for one thing, the more we learn, the faster we learn more.When people attempt to estimate the future rate of change, they invariably base their estimates on the rate of change in the past, and so those estimates are consistent in underestimating them.Also, technology may increase inequality and uncertainty for working people by channeling profits upward and risks downward. (See: "gig economy" or "on demand" economy.)https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/01/the-fourth-industrial-revolution-what-it-means-and-how-to-respond

author: qno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 09:40:53 pm
content: Its simple.Look around for something you can be improved in the area of embedded electronics.Improve it.Talk about it with friends, family, collegues put it on a website.Then you get questions like if you can do that can you do ......Or comments like it does not work well it should do this.......Before you know you are in business.So just start

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 10:01:38 pm
content: I think the advice to 'just do it' is good advice. You may surprise yourself.Living in the US comes with an advantage - used test equipment is cheaper than it is elsewhere. Right there that is a big advantage. You may be able to afford a better lab than many others with less of an investment. try to figure out where you have a competitive advantage. maybe you have access to other ways to learn.But, necessity is also the mother of invention and its important to save money. Not spending money unless you absolutely have to is a good habit to get into too.Just immerse yourself into it. Don't forget to have fun!Quote from: embeddedguy85 on October 05, 2017, 05:52:07 pm

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 11:35:44 pm
content: Several years ago, I was playing with ARM7TDMI devices, specifically the NXP LPC2148. Along the way I ran into this site:http://www.jcwren.com/arm/Here is sample code for every peripheral on the device including USB Mass Storage and Serial connectivity. There is also an implementation of FreeRTOS and FatFS. Just about everything that can be done with the chip is done. The code is fantastic. Look at the build system; the author is an expert with Makefiles!The point is, you will need to show people what you can do. One way to do that is to grab some fairly high end device (clearly not a PIC 16Fxxx) and implement all the peripherals, all the available interrupts, probably the DMA controller and certainly FreeRTOS and FatFS. This will probably be a few to several thousand lines of C code and, if it is done well, it should be an entry into the field.I might think about one of the high end STM32F boards with a graphics display. There's nothing like "show and tell". I would probably avoid using ST's HAL code. I might use it as a reference but the end product needs to be "my" code, not ST's.Just understanding the intricacies of Makefiles will put you in rare company.There is more to it than just writing code. System design from start to delivery is what your clients will probably expect. So, that chip you know all about? It probably won't be the one going into the project. You will need to start over with a different chip (and toolchain, probably). It will be easier the second time. Even easier the 3rd, 4th and 5th times.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2017, 02:43:15 pm
content: And add lwIP (TCP/IP) to the list of things to code. You only need to provide the low level interface and it should probably work for WiFi and wired. There is an example of lwIP wrapped around FreeRTOS at the FreeRTOS site.http://www.freertos.org/embeddedtcp.htmlI would try to implement a web server, telnet server and tftp client. I think I would skip SSH... Examples for this are all over the Internet.This list of things to implement is getting large. Look for the chip with the largest flash possible. Or, find a board with separate flash and DDR memory off-chip.What will be challenging is to find a cohesive project that can use ALL of these bits and pieces. Some kind of 'master' project.It might be nice to have a user level operating system. Nothing fancy but it should be able to load and execute named files via FatFS. Nothing more than 1980 vintage CP/M but wrapped up in the multitasking FreeRTOS.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2017, 08:07:34 pm
content: It's much more about who you know, than what. Probably 90% of the work I've had over the last few years has been through word of mouth one way or another.What does your address book look like? Are there people whom you would be able to usefully call up and say "hey, remember me? I'm doing contract work now, do you have any jobs going?".If not, then straight away you're at a disadvantage. You'll need to gain two things - attention and credibility - and these require very different skills to achieve.Getting attention means finding people who need work, and somehow getting them to know you exist. Trade shows are good for this; they're about the only context in which it's OK to randomly approach people and tell them what you do.The other thing you need is credibility, which means showing off what you can do, in a way that's relevant to the people you're talking to. This is where having made some stuff to demonstrate is key. Nothing gets across what you do as effectively as putting a working demo in someone's hand.What you should build depends on the needs of your target market. Keep it relevant. There's no point making stuff with colour screens and networking if your market wants 4-20mA outputs and high temperature operation.A few of the designs I do are genuinely complex, difficult, and high performance. But a great many aren't; instead, they're simple circuits that just do exactly what the application requires. You can do a lot with a PIC, a few op-amps, a voltage regulator, and a really thorough understanding of precisely what your customer needs.

author: embeddedguy85
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2017, 09:42:17 pm
content: I will certainly be lacking in the personal connections department. I plan to compensate with a lot of smart marketing.

author: embeddedguy85
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2017, 10:12:30 pm
content: What type of companies hire freelance embedded engineers? I've tried searching for a survey with no luck.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2017, 11:02:35 pm
content: Maybe you are thinking about short time project based gigs?When you hang out your sign and go into business as your own firm?or maybe you are really taking about longer term temp work, that may turn into a permanent gig?I don't know enough about embedded work to map my own experience to it but in IT related fields a lot of the time temporary work for six months or so is sort of a tryout period when the employer sees if a potential full time employee is up to the taskPeople might get those jobs through what many people call"headhunters"basically people who might work as part of an agency or on their own.They place employees and employers together, and take a cut of the wages for a short period of time if they are hired. The matches they line up may not be such good ones, or they may be, depending on their skill level and intelligence.In places where there are lots of tech firms, there are also headhunters.They tend to be non-technical "people people".. If you connect well with one of them, they might be able to get you a good job. But you have to use your intuition.A job is a big taker of your time and taking the wrong kind of job is not good for your career, because every employer should respect their employees need to develop professionally and some don't. They don't understand that. The differences between different employers are huge.A year in tech is like seven years outside of it.Any detours into a work environment where the staff and their skills development isnt valued appropriately will likely hurt your career greatly because during that time, a lot changes..You have to keep moving forward or you are actually going backwards..But to get back to head hunters..Eventually you may become a desirable prospect and these people will likely seek you out. Being as its a distraction and you may not want to tell them things you are working on, which they might pass on as gossip, you might want to be kind of discriminating in taking to them.Depending on the field, it often happens that they rarely know much about the fields they place people into.If they did they would likely be doing that instead of headhunting.Jobs you get from friends and word of mouth and your own contacts have a much better chance of being a good match for your skills than headhunter-placed jobs.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2017, 11:54:17 pm
content: cdev brings up headhunters and I'll add 'body shops'. Basically, the body shop hires you and sends you to a client site for the actual work. The employer, legally, is the body shop. As such, the client company where you perform the work has reduced employee obligations. That's good and bad.The bad is obvious, you have no job security whatsoever and probably no benefits. It's also good because the company can take a chance since backing out of the deal is as easy as a phone call to the body shop.All of which gets you in the door. Alas, this thread is about freelancing and that implies NOT going through the door. I think marketing is going to be critical and I'm not sure how to go about that. I have some experience with headhunters but I never worked for a body shop.You can also look into nearby 'start-ups'. They won't pay much but you will get founders stock options. If things go well, you will make a bazillion dollars (think Facebook). If not, you will gain experience.Start-ups are started by college kids with or without their professors. Hang out around the local colleges and/or universities. That will be awkward... Still, if you have serious skills, something will come up.How about the local Makerspace groups?https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B004HW7E3I/ref=dp_olp_all_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=allRemember that every college kid has a better resume in terms of education and also codes better than you. That's what they do all day and night. OTOH, you may have more diverse experience. They may know a lot about a few things whereas you may know a little about a lot of things. There are advantages both ways.I think the Makerspace thing would be a great way to get known around town.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2017, 11:59:58 pm
content: Start ups often turn out very badly for people who go in expecting to make a lot of money so accept less pay. I would avoid them like the plague unless you are one of the people starting it.Smart people don't do the "start up" thing. If you're going to work for nothing, it might as well be for your own company, not somebody else's.

author: andyturk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2017, 12:43:50 am
content: Nobody wants to hire a freelance engineer.What they want to hire is an internal expert, who writes perfect code, works for cheap, and never leaves the company. Of course, that kind of engineer basically doesn't exist, and hiring managers have to think about what really matters to their current project(s) and do the best with the talent they have access to.Contractors often get called with the stuff has already hit the fan. E.g., the project is late, the original firmware guy/gal quit and left a mess and they want someone to clean it up, so they can ship. Non-technical managers are eternally optimistic and convince themselves that 1) it's "only a few weeks of work", and 2) they didn't pay the last guy very much, so they don't need to pay you much either.In silicon valley (where I work), those kind of jobs are comparatively easy to find once your name is in circulation. The trick is to only take jobs where you can truly fix the problem for the customer. You don't want to become the engineer who leaves a mess for someone else to clean up.It's absolutely possible to do this kind of work without formal training or a degree. However, you have to be better, faster, and more professional than the folks you're competing against. However, most of the firmware code I've seen is poorly documented, has zero architectural thought put into it, and breaks if you look at it funny. I.e., the bar is pretty low in the firmware world.Personally, I spend energy on architecture and documentation, and can usually get work done quickly (enough). The latter is most important for the people writing checks... they have business deadlines to meet. The architecture and doc is more important to the in-house engineers I end up working with. If they like the stuff I produce, they're more likely to pull me in on the next project or recommend me to someone else.The best situation of all is when (as a contractor/freelancer) you're asked to join a project in the design stage. You avoid most of the yucky cleanup work that's no fun, and get to leave a bigger mark on the end result. Those are also situations where you're able to work remotely.

author: embeddedguy85
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2017, 01:40:08 am
content: Gentlemen, thank you very much for all the recommendations. Please keep them coming in regards to the original question.But while I have your attention, and since I see that a large part of freelancing is human oriented... here's another question: Do you believe a southern accent a negative trait to have in this field? Humans are prone to prejudice whether they like to admit it or not, and southern accents aren't exactly connected to high intelligence in the media.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2017, 02:00:52 am
content: Quote from: embeddedguy85 on October 07, 2017, 01:40:08 am1) If they are judging you on your accent, maybe you don't want to work for them.2) If they only have your accent to judge you by, then you haven't communicated your capabilities and accomplishments properly.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2017, 02:03:53 am
content: Computing generally is more focused on your skills than many other fields, IMHO.So, no, I don't think it matters. As long as you are intelligent, people might even like it.Thats the great thing about this planet, we are different but we are the same too.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2017, 07:50:39 am
content: Quote from: andyturk on October 07, 2017, 12:43:50 amI may be looking further ahead here, but this is an important point that bears repeating.Freelancing is as much about the jobs you turn down, as it is about the ones you do. You don't want to take on any job that's doomed from the start, especially if the person hiring you doesn't know this.The jobs I take on are those which boil down to "we have a project with at least one customer already lined up for it, and we need the electronics taking care of". Those are great.Jobs I've run away from, or should have run away from, have included:- we can't get some parts any more, and the engineer who designed our product has left. We need you to sort out the mess.- we've got no money, but really need some help designing this. You'll work for next to nothing, right?- we need someone to do this difficult, niche, thankless part of our overall project, which none of the permanent engineers want to do, so we've chosen it to be the part we outsource.- this is our design, we need it turning into a manufacturable product within the next two weeks, and you'll be to blame for any bugs in it even if they're in our original schematics and even if you spot them and tell us about them.... and so the list goes on.There *are* some great companies out there, with superb in-house skills and knowledge in their own area, but who simply don't have electronics capability. They're the ones to work for, and you can end up a great partnership.

author: andyturk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2017, 02:49:03 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on October 07, 2017, 07:50:39 amSounds like a great idea for a thread.

author: igendel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2017, 03:14:51 pm
content: Quote from: andyturk on October 07, 2017, 02:49:03 pmSo true!

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2017, 03:37:32 pm
content: This post is too long and kind of fragmentary.Some of this likely doesn't apply in many contexts at all. For example, the stuff about conferences and interviewing multiple times likely only applies to some larger organizations, academia and companies with close ties to academia.The reason I am including it is because you sound to me like you really want to make a career change to this entirely new field (for you) but are reluctant to say so, you think that freelance is less of a commitment than full time work. The fact is, both are full time commitments, one is just for yourself. Both are likely to take all of your time. A casual commitment likely means hobby.. a professional commitment means lots of time..The job market may have also changed.. For me, this is a snapshot of the past, not the present.. also, its a different field, one that was red hot at the time..One which it turned out, was a "bubble" that popped around 2000.Anybody with even marginal web skills could get some kind of web job in the late 90s. Now its much different. There was a major shakeout.These are fragmentary musings on different aspects of interviewing..and job search, and while working in different roles and seeking - and sometimes not seeking- different kinds of opportunities...You will also notice, its wildly out of sequence..It needs major cleanup..and re-ordering..This is the first time I've really revisited this area in a while.. so take it for what it is.. kind of a work in progress.. It may not apply to your job hunt at all, or it may.. I don't know. If embedded becomes the Next Big Thing (TM), it may apply more than if it doesn't.If you take away one thing its dont sell yourself short. Learn to be discriminating on what work you take. Even when you are starting out, your time is valuable.Time you dont spend at soul crushing jobs is time you can further your own goals..During economic bubbles, you could do far worse than to think about your own technical skills development and focus and not the get rick quick schemes being proposed all around you.(this would now be called the "gig economy")During a bubble, money may get thrown at lots of companies with marginal or even bad ideas.. a situation which attracts, like flies, a great many would be fly-by-night employers who want you to work for THEIR dream and take all their risk onto yourself. So they can basically steal.they are a dime a dozen.They proliferate..(OTOH, when a field is NOT seen as "booming",or even is seen as not doing well, honest players, and better ideas and viable businesses predominate!)During a bubble.. schemes and schemers are crawling out of the woodwork, so to speak.Some are attracted to fields that are seen as becoming the next big thing.Some may fully intend from the start to flake out on you and your co workers. taking the money and running.I saw that happen numerous times. Luckily as far as myself, compared to some friends and others I knew professionally, the number of hours I personally spent doing unpaid work that I was never paid for was relatively small.I would say even at the height of the bubble, most web firms were legit and delivered value for money. It was the newcomers to the field, a bunch of players from the world of multimedia, which had collapsed when the web exploded, that made up much of the bubble.Really, I lucked out as far as employers went, for the most part, compared to many friends.Two customers led me to completely change the way I charged clients and priced jobs..After I had had to go to clients that had had me do substantial amounts of work for them and demand payment, I realized how out of control this was getting in the atmosphere around me and wised up a bit.After that I made it my practice to have a very formal process of defining the work and getting paid for half of each milestone in advance and not getting too ahead of what they paid me. until they had. I had to do it.Otherwise you'll be likely to learn that lesson the hard way.Not long after that I ended up getting a very good job completely out of the commercial arena and working full time there - continuing doing that for a long time. I worked in a non-commercial setting and enjoyed my work a lot. Ironically, when I was offered that job I was also offered another job with an even more high level employer at the same time. I ended up sticking with the first offer.Just dont sell yourself short. When red flags are seen, your time is far better spent elsewhere - self-learning the skills that get you a really good job.Hopefully this is informative.....You should get more familiar with how consultants (i.e. freelance workers) work and get paid. (oftentimes they incorporate, or at the very least set up a business name)Also how entities seeking help put out requests for proposals.. (or whatever it is called in embedded)There are also probably directories of embedded solutions providers.. Perhaps hardware companies have lists of pre-vetted solutions providers.. You (i.e. your budding consultancy firm) should get on those lists.Then you may start getting proposals, which depending on your area may be important potential job leads or potential noise .. most of which you would be smart to be very careful about devoting energy to.Only you can judge what they are. As your name gets out, you should have multiple email addresses to allow you to give one email address to people you really want to hear from and other ones for various kinds of submissions or solicitations.To be honest with you, in my past experience, in urban areas especially, freelancing is what people already established in their fields do, so if somebody puts out the word they are a business, then they start attracting solicitations from people. For example, I used to be on lists of advertising companies because I did web design for companies which were used in ad campaigns.I was on those lists during the height of the Internet bubble. So my experience as recounted here, reflects my perspective on that.. As there appears to be an IOT bubble heading our way, perhaps, maybe its useful, I don't know how relevant it is now.That said..Maybe you are really looking for a regular job, just in a new field, or soon will be. If you say you are freelancing, that kind of suggests you know more about the field than some others seeking your help do, which seems to me to be your call, not mine.But if you say you are a consultant, my experience in the web design field, was that it became a real chorebecause a "bubble" was occurring where a lot of fly by night people and companies were attempting to get work for free out of the much smaller number of people who did actual work.Especially around 1999 a huge number of people left the multimedia field and put out shingles claiming to b e web designers but in fact they were not. They then tried to exploit real web people for ideas and free work..eventually I grew really quite tired of certain kinds of solicitations that led me to turn off my fax machine and stop even reading much of my email at that time. Knowing that I was blowing off potential work.An important fact you need to know from the outset is, during bubbles, sleazy people are attracted to a field and it becomes a ponzi like situation.. They pretend to be potential jobs when they are just trying to get free ideas, free work out of people they have no intention of ever hiring for anything.The same thing goes for first interviews. Some percentage of first interviews may at some times of the business cycle be like that.You have to develop a sixth sense about what potential jobs are serious and which ones are just trying to get free work out of people..Or, (and this is especially true of larger organizations).they may often have already picked out somebody else, perhaps somebody who hey can get to work for nothing, like an intern, and are just going through the motions of exhausting their other options, to cover their asses on paper.That said, if you can afford to go to lots of interviews and detach from this fact if they rarely lead to jobs, its always interesting to get a look inside various companies and organizations.Also you might make new contacts. With the fluid nature of technology many people now in organization X may soon be your coworkers or colleagues in organization Y.IMHO, if you can take your mind off your own need to find work, its always interesting to interview at famously bad companies to see how they frame well known problems when they think you, a new prospect, don't know about them.Also, I've always found it kind of interesting being interviewed by people a lot younger than me.Younger, older or whatever, it's very often happened that I met those same people somewhere else socially and we then had a chance to laugh about when our work lives intersected.Then you may get a chance to know the inside scoop on what the people who interviewed you that day arereallylike!There are a lot of characters in tech companies, some companies are famously or infamously driven by them.You may get to meet the future (later famous person) or similar, at an early state of his or her career. (That happens a lot in a growing industry) Go for it!Try to relax and not take it personally if you never get called back, you may eventually be happy you didn't, when you get your dream job and others who went to work at the company from hell are wishing they had passed on them!Second interviews are much different than first interviews. If you end up being called back for a second interview that means you somehow distinguished yourself from the others and actually have a good chance of getting a job. You will likely then be speaking with people who you will be working with if you get the job, and their technical lead, your future manager.If this is a permanent job and not a consultancy.. its more likely than not they are looking for consistency. You don't have to be a genius, that kind of attitude is very annoying, what you need to be is somebody who knows their stuff enough to learn more fast, who will work with them as a team. Many people will likely be interviewed. Your job in that interview is to make the cut as somebody who they can see being an asset to their efforts. Most computer organizations are quite casual. Dress a bit nicer than casual but not so much as to stand out. Don't wear a suit and tie! I would also avoid t-shirts.. Wear a dress shirt and nice pants or if its hot, nice shorts and sandals are probably fine. Nice dress shorts and nice sandals or comfortable functional shoes are kind of universal attire in computing workplaces in the summer. Programmers tend to wear nice but comfortable clothing. Avoid 'statements' too. Don't wear blindingly bright colors, to a job interview, for example. You may get there and find all your potential co workers have very comfortable cozy offices or cubicles and dress very casually. That's the kind of workplace that is often the most productive. I've even worked in places where employees taking (short) naps was encouraged or where people even brought their pets to work sometimes.Other workplaces have a policy of letting workers propose an additional project which is more speculative or long term, maybe a research project, and generally approve it and let it take as much as 20% of their time, if its seen as helping their long term goals. That's a good opportunity to learn new skills, try to get those jobs, those kinds of employers are good ones.Others may encourage employees to propose articles or put together "posters" about their work to be featured at conferences in their field, and if they are accepted their employers pay so they can attend those conferences.I should say a word about conferences.. If you take a long term job, a good way to distinguish good employers from bad is if they send their workforce to conferences in their field. Some companies make it their business to send their employees to key conferences in heir fields which occur typically once a year but hey may occur more or less frequently.. Often there are several conferences a year that a person may want to attend.Conferences may be slightly less important now than they used to be pre-web but they still are an essential part of staying abreast of professional fields.----If you go to one, use every instant you are there to talk with people about what they are doing, share your own experiences (if thats okay) and especially, meet other people who do similar work to yourself at other organizations and collect their contact info.------These are all good questions to ask in the first or second interviews.. ask them how this specific company is as a workplace as far as professional growth and whether they help the people who interview you achieve their own goals. Do they send their employees to key conferences?This might get some honesty out of them which otherwise you might not get. If they seem to be trying to put a good face on a bad situation, it may not be a company that's going in a good direction.Make sure you ask them all their contact info and take good notes, plan from the start to write them all a nice but casual thank youemailfor spending the time to interview you. If you dont get the job but find some fact later on that could help them with whatever issues they confide in you that is an opportunity to help them, even if its moths later, send them your idea. Thats a way to move from the set of zillions of people who interviewed for jobs into the set of smart people you want to remember as possible hires..(Don't gossip what they showed or told you to others, even if you are tempted to. Consider it a sort of sacred, privileged mode of communication.)If you get called back a THIRD time.. then, you will likely be being interviewed by the technical leads and the management who can right there, offer you the job. They may make a formal job offer.However at that point you may be juggling several job offers. You should be honest about your status and not try to pretend you are not getting multiple offers or more offers than you are in fact getting.Think long term and realize, you may become close with these people, this may turn out to be where you spend a good chunk of your life. How can you do well by them so they can depend on you and you can depend on them. You should start your relationship off on the right foot.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2017, 05:01:26 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on October 06, 2017, 11:59:58 pmAnd yet even the secretaries at Facebook wound up with stock options worth multiple millions of dollars when the company went public.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2072204/Facebook-IPO-create-1-000-millionaires-companys-rank-file.htmlI've made a bit on money on stock options - not enough to retire earlier but fun to spend. I always went for salary and if stock options were offered I would accept. I would not trade options for salary.That isn't the point. The point is to build a resume'. It might be easier to find a low pay position with a startup to gain the experience necessary to succeed as a freelancer. You have to have a track record!Nobody is going to hire some guy off the street who claims to be the world's great code weenie without something to back up the claim.The company doing the hiring is looking for skills, availability and a record of success. They have their own goals to meet and they are going to use the best available resources to meet them. It does no good to bring a product to market a year after your competitor.Any company can hire an average coder. What they want in a freelancer is a highly developed skill set focused on their needs. At the last company I worked for, they needed somebody to clean up a database. So they brought in a young fellow with fantastic database skills. He actually worked for the company before going freelance a year or so earlier. A year later he had a couple of dozen employees doing similar work with several of them working at my company. The young fellow was a genius in the areas of finance, accounting, database and web services. Good for him!

author: embeddedguy85
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 05:23:06 pm
content: What about getting a normal on-site 9-5 job without a degree? I'm starting to feel that freelancing might not be such a great goal for me. TBH one of the main reasons I want to do freelancing is social anxiety. The other is a desire to have the freedom to work less and spend more time learning other skills.But now that I think about it, any decent company will surely have learning to opportunities in the company, right? I want to go into DSP, Mems and machine learning after electronics and embedded. Of course who knows how things will change in the next 5 years.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 06:03:49 pm
content: It's a very different life.With a regular job, you have more-or-less guaranteed hours and income. Depending on where you end up, you may or may not have a great deal of choice over the type of work you do and how you do it. You may get opportunities to learn cool new stuff at someone else's expense, or you may not. Other people will own everything you create.Go it alone and everything changes. You have absolutely no guarantee that anyone will have work for you from one day to the next. You're completely free to choose the work you take on, and the jobs you turn down, so theoretically you may never have to do a job you hate, or put up with having to work the way someone else wants you to on a daily basis.You can take time out to learn whatever skills you want - and you'll need to - but you'll never get paid for that time until you actually put those skills into practice, and use them to take on jobs you'd otherwise have had to turn down.If you play your cards right, you may end up owning an ever increasing amount of valuable intellectual property, which you can license to different customers and get paid for several times over.I had 15 years' experience as a full-time engineer before I started taking on freelance jobs. I was lucky enough to have an understanding employer, who let me go part-time for a few years before I eventually left on good terms.I don't think I'd have been anywhere near prepared to run my own business without that wealth of experience - though on the plus side, half the (commercial, non-technical) things I do now aren't half as difficult as I was led to believe they were.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 06:21:38 pm
content: Quote from: embeddedguy85 on October 09, 2017, 05:23:06 pmThat may be difficult. There exists a surplus of degreed code weenies to the point that people are not even bothering to enroll in these programs. Yes, enrollments in STEM programs are down.About half of the college curriculum is nonsense: World History, US History, California History, English (poetry and such) and quite a bit is off topic like Chemistry and Physics (I really liked the 2 semesters of Physics. Physics explains everything). So, you might be able to convince a prospective employer that taking just the programming or electronics courses is more to the point than a BSEE or BSCS. That said, you might not be eligible to take the important classes without taking a bundle of math first. Around here, you need to take Calculus I, Calculus II and Differential Equations in order to major in ANY STEM program.One thing is certain: C code needs to flow from your fingers. If nothing else, you need to MASTER C. There are other languages in use but C is used for embedded and most operating systems. Maybe a little C++ but I haven't seen it used for embedded. For a number of reasons, I wouldn't expect to see it.Many employers won't even talk to you unless a) you are very well known in the industry or b) you have a BSxx degree. Your application and resume won't even make if off the HR person's desk. Straight to the round file...

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 07:53:00 pm
content: Have you ever heard about World Competition Day?Quote from: embeddedguy85 on October 09, 2017, 05:23:06 pm

author: adras
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2017, 03:06:09 pm
content: I see it quite simple, if you want to get hired, you need to prove that you can do the work. The common way to prove that is one's education. Another way is a free internship - Start working for a company for free for a couple of weeks, prove that you're good, ask for a job, if that doesn't work, you have something to put into your CV so it's not a complete loss, and you gained experience.Another way are courses which lead to a certificate. In the software area a good way to prove you can program in c# would be to attend a Microsoft course which results in a certificate which is accepted by basically everyone. Attending those courses however is quite expensive, I guess around 500USD for one course. I'm pretty sure there are standard courses in the electronics area as well which are widely accepted.In Germany you can remotely study at an university, that gives you the option to work at a full time job and study at home, at the same time. However in most cases it's just too much to handle.You could also do the internships during vacation of your main job. But keep in mind, vacation is required to keep you going, keep your relaxed and reduce stress. However if the internship is so much fun to you that you feel fulfilled when you get home, it's an option.At least in the software area there are a lot of sites for freelancers which work similar like ebay. Somebody posts a job, and the freelancers put their offers underbidding each other. Maybe there's a site for electronics as well. Unfortunately that was never an option for me, because my Germany living costs are so high that I couldn't compete with indians and chinese people.In Germany we also have a vocational school, you start working at a company with your basic education and visit a specialized school at the same time to get an education in a specific field. But at that age it would be pretty difficult to find such a job because it's supposed to be an education after school, so mostly for young people.It's definitely difficult what you're trying to do, I once had a similar idea in my mind. I decided to get my head straight again so I can get more happy in the job I didn't like at the time. But I don't want to say it's impossible. You're living in the so called land of opportunities, so try and start with internships, maybe you can get stuck at one companySome employees are willing to modify your contract, for instance a few colleagues in Germany working for a US company switched from working 40 hours a week to 32 hours a week. Of course with salary decreased as well. Stuff like that may give you the additional time to get more education in the field.EditAnother thing I noticed, FPGA programmers seem to be quite rare, expensive, maybe even rare. Usually those people are pretty expensive. Maybe you can get enough experience to work for half of the common salary which can improve your chances to find a job.Hope that helped

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2017, 03:39:47 pm
content: Americans (or Australians!) can actually go to Germanyand they will let you attend collegefor free. And most classes are in English.Really.If only I had known that when I was 30!@embeddedguy85 Do you have any transferable credit from classes you might have taken at a university?

author: adras
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2017, 05:00:52 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on October 11, 2017, 03:39:47 pmQuoteAfter a quick research, it's not free, but it's probably much cheaper than in other countries.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2017, 07:33:29 pm
content: That's much less expensive than the costs here, which are astronomical for somebody who is on their own.They also assume the student has somewhere to go on breaks, and familial assistance, which isn't always the case.Many people's families might not be on good terms with them, wanting to go to college when a family head has some reason it doesnt want them to (cost, usually but often they pretend its something else) is a recipe for estrangement.Many families are so risk averse that for a member to be able to do something as inherently expensive as attend college is extremely unlikely unless not only its free but also their cost of living costs during that time are somehow addressed, a work-study job can help a lot with that IF its one that allows the student time to study and attend school, but economic pressures in the low wage workplace might make that less and less likely outside of college provided jobs, even for people with substantial skills...All this adds up to college degrees becoming less possible for many American young people.

author: adras
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2017, 08:08:23 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on October 11, 2017, 07:33:29 pmYeah, I can imagine that. Education should be free. Because without education you cannot affort getting education

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2017, 08:09:33 pm
content: Was it at a high enough level, and recent enough ago, that the credit you earned before would be accepted in a university program as evidence you had completed some of its academic requirements?Quote from: embeddedguy85 on October 05, 2017, 03:32:00 pm

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2017, 08:29:02 pm
content: Thats what I feel too but ...A process began some time ago.. and now the futures of "public higher education" "public goods" and "public services" are embattled all around the world. I cant say any more, I cant explain what I mean without discussing politics.......Quote from: adras on October 11, 2017, 08:08:23 pm

author: adras
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2017, 08:44:37 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on October 11, 2017, 08:29:02 pmBack when udacity.com was started, I was amazed, because they offered all their courses in a very professional way. But it was only free to get people interested so they can grow their service. Now they sell useless microdegrees which I consider quite expensive.We need a higher supply than the demand for education to lower the price until it's affordable. That's the only way in our current economics. But this is starting to get too off topic. I don't want to steal op's thread. If someone wants to keep talking about that, why don't you create a thread in "Gerneral chat"?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2017, 09:14:03 pm
content: Send me a PM if you want to discuss this problem, which is a major one.I dont want to derail OPs post. I cant start a thread on this, Dave doesnt want politics to be discussed here.Quote from: adras on October 11, 2017, 08:44:37 pm

author: Awesome14
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2017, 02:15:59 am
content: Quote from: cdev on October 11, 2017, 07:33:29 pmcdev, where are you getting this? I have never heard of a family that was averse to having their children attend college! If parents don't have the funds to subsidize a college education, there is all kinds of government financial aid available!Anyone who wants a college education in the USA can easily afford it on his own! Are you sure you're from the USA? More and more young people are getting college degrees! In fact, so many young people are college educated that there aren't enough workers in the trades!American Universities have the lowest admission standards. You don't even have to be intelligent!OK, now that that's out of the way, one thing struck me about the OP: social anxiety. I call thatshyness. It sounds like you fear social interaction, because you're not very good at it. Everyone fears rejection,everyone.Freelancing is not the remedy for social anxiety. I've always done my own thing since college. The last time I had an employer was as a bartender. It's fun for a kid, but I had to grow upsometime. If you're socially inept, do something about it!Many socially challenged individuals lack basic self-respect, because of past experiences, so they interpret all feedback from others through that lens. A southern accent can affect how people perceive your intelligence, but you can learn to ignore that. The best way to overcome prejudice is by being a good example.You might want to talk to a counselor for more personal advice. If you become a professional firmware writer, it will become like any other job--work! Some people say they enjoy their jobs, but none of them would do it for free!However, if you want to develop firmware, I would start with the Internet of Things. Just google it, or IoT. Personally, I would think about a college degree. There are electronics and computing professionals with a high-school education, but very few. College teaches a man notwhatto think, buthowto think!And, if you can write quality firmware code you'll be in a small group of people. My impression of most firmware is that it's like a house of cards. As long as nothing bad happens, it will remain. But one small puff and it collapses.It seems counterintuitive, but a great way to get computing gigs is to get really good at MS power point. Make presentations with lots of colors and patterns and clipart, even animated clipart for nontechies (get your foot past the human resources department)!If you say your qualified, and you have a competent presentation, most people will accept that. Every project I have ever done I didn't know how to do beforehand. But I knew Icould! I just knew it!IoT is going to go gangbusters, and it's ripe for developmentNOW! It is so wide open it's unbelievable. Anything that uses a sensor of any kind and communicates over the Internet, any remote-control system that permits access over the Net, any physical security system that interacts online, and anything that communicates without human interaction over the Net, with the Internet itself, or with people or other IoT devices, is part of the IoT.And it all needs firmware and apps. I'd develop my own IoT device, but I'm an old, grumpy analog guy! Not really. But that's mostly what I do these days. I'm also a pretty competent programmer, but I'd rather use programs other people write.One last thing, every type of IC processor has a unique architecture (which is what makes it a different type) which requires its own tool chain (compiler, assembler, linker, binary utilities), with many idiosyncrasies that have to be learned for each processor type. Learning the tool chain is often half the battle to writing firmware.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2017, 03:13:03 pm
content: Awesome14, I agree with your enthusiastic opinion of the intrinsic value of technology skills.But, things have changed a lot since you and I were young.Its harder now than you think, and the rosy picture you paint was never that rosy for many people.EnbeddedguyElectronics is a lot of fun, knowledge and skills are their own rewards, and also are very valuable as a means to preserve one's mental health. Plus sometimes those skills may lead to fulfilling work.Either way, whether they do or don't, it is interesting, and gives people accomplishments that nothing can take away.So its a great thing to learn.Twenty or thirty years from now, a degree quite possibly wont be what people expect today - as far as it getting them work. if you just look at percentages. Lets take a hypothetical figure, supposing this even if 95% of the people who get electronics jobs have a degree, it may also be the case that 75% of those with a six year or more degree in their field, never get a job in their field.In other words, the number of jobs may shrink to way below the number of skilled people created.It may be like that in almost all professions. Because of automation, and other things like the law of averages favoring people with the economic means to do years of low paid or what is essentially volunteer work after graduation. To get experience.Be happy you're smart and have an inquisitive mind. And learn. And don't spend precious money and especially, don't get into debt.That said, learning is a very good investment in almost every way, especially when you can do it without spending huge amounts of money.Just don't throw good money at knowledge you can achieve on your own unless its at a good school and you know it leads to an accredited degree that real employers don't laugh at.For profit schools, are rarely what they are cracked up to be.Basic knowledge which can be applied to multiple skills and which transfers between disciplines (math is like that) is not acquired overnight but its worth understanding.Its easy to wate a lot of time doing the wrong thing.Proprietary certifications are often worthless before their ink is dry.If I were you I would avoid them.Many job search sites are scams as well.Friends and sharing projects -- i.e. cooperative work - is likely the best teacher and the fastest way to learn new things.

author: embeddedguy85
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2017, 02:11:31 am
content: Are there any freelancers out there who want to reveal their yearly average earnings?