Is a "Fly swatter" circuit appropriate for a cat? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 07:20:40 pm
content: "Asking for a friend.""coin cell" -> HV coil -> discharge circuit on contact. Cat<>Carpet zone prone to "plucking out the pile".

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 07:23:52 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on November 11, 2022, 07:20:40 pmNo, you horrible person! Get some OLD carpet and try to put it in the place where it happens, but let the cat do what it NEEDS TO DO. Some people need to wise up about their pets, or give the pet to someone loving and responsible. It's not a HORSE, it's a tiny, sensitive creature. Can we make one for you, too, and zap YOU?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 07:35:08 pm
content: I would certainly not try this, the fly swatter circuits are meant to kill flies, have you ever touched one? It hurts! Try a Scat Cat, they fit on a can of air duster and use a motion detector to release a hissing sound that startles most cats but doesn't harm them.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 07:37:34 pm
content: Pay attention:https://www.bluecross.org.uk/news/we-need-to-ban-aversive-devices-to-protect-petshttps://metro.co.uk/2018/08/27/electric-shock-collars-for-dogs-and-cats-will-be-banned-7885810/If you areaskingif it is appropriate, it seems that your conscience alreadyknowsthe answer...no.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 07:40:26 pm
content: In Ratpsych 101 you learn that aversion is very powerful at controlling behavior. Problem is that with both aversion and attraction, the rats just go in circles and poop everywhere. (That's a little hyperbole.)A flyswatter will probably not injure the cat. Most animal trainers use incentives, but fear can be used too, such as loud noises.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 07:42:26 pm
content: With animals, love and kindness ALWAYS work best... and PATIENCE... and if you have none of those, don't have a cat. It's a blessing to you, not a nuisance to be fixed. Patience PAYS OFF.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 07:44:09 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on November 11, 2022, 07:40:26 pmObedience through fear? Sounds like Russian politics! BAD, clumsy "solution".

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 07:54:46 pm
content: A kids water pistol is likely the very best deterrent.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 08:03:10 pm
content: Quote from: eti on November 11, 2022, 07:44:09 pmBased on your concurrent bleeding heart stories, I could care less what you think. You have been a success at nothing. Using "Russian politics" is just a diversion. Try to keep politics out of a discussion about training cats. The term pets applies to many animals, but American law as related to them differs by species. That is, dogs are different than cats.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 08:05:38 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on November 11, 2022, 07:54:46 pmIt can even be automated so you do not have to be there for the act. Several YT videos on that. One crazy funny one uses a water hose. It is outdoor, of course.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 08:18:29 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on November 11, 2022, 08:03:10 pm"You have been a success at nothing."Would you care to demonstrate a plan to "succeed", like you have? Since you seem so happy and contented in yourself, I'd like to learn how to adapt such a happy, kind demeanour, to make myself endearing to others, as you seem to have perfected it, as I see from your calm, caring manner, the product of inner contentment and peace... please share your "wisdom".PS: If you could careless, that means that in order to careLESS, you must care at least a little; this is basic logic.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 08:31:54 pm
content: Quote from: eti on November 11, 2022, 07:42:26 pmAny advice for the neighbour's cat that persistently craps on your lawn then?

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 08:36:53 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on November 11, 2022, 08:31:54 pmYep, look at YT videos, as previously mentioned. There are no leash laws for cats like there are for dogs. At least none I am aware of. There's a reason for that.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 08:46:54 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on November 11, 2022, 08:36:53 pm... Short of lying in wait all day with the water pistol, or automatically drenching the postman!?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 08:50:45 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on November 11, 2022, 08:31:54 pmCats hate citrus, lemon or orange oil scents will typically repel them, and the Scat Cat things I mentioned work well, though they're not meant to be outdoors in the weather. It's unusual for a cat to poop on a lawn, normally they bury their waste.

author: Zoli
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 09:34:45 pm
content: I remember reading somewhere about cameras+AI(RPi)*guarded lawn against cats(toilet) with targeted sprinklers....*Nvidia researcher, IIRC

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 09:42:28 pm
content: Quote from: eti on November 11, 2022, 07:42:26 pmI can see you have no clue you are talking about and you do not have a cat. You can be patient until cows come home but cats will use for toilet whatever place they consider should be their toilet.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 10:08:00 pm
content: Quote from: Zoli on November 11, 2022, 09:34:45 pmMake such system to scare raccoons off and you will be a millionare. Cats are nothing compare to damage raccoons do to people lawns and backyards.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 10:11:28 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on November 11, 2022, 09:42:28 pmI've had cats my whole life and for the most part I haven't found that to be the case. If you provide them with a suitable box and keep it clean they will normally use it.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 10:17:42 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on November 11, 2022, 09:42:28 pmAre you SURE I don't have a cat? What is this then...https://photos.app.goo.gl/PRGPimvJJ5EWd37y8Maybe it's a clever animal way of them sending you a message as to what they think of their treatment, by you!

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 10:28:09 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on November 11, 2022, 07:20:40 pmSimple test- scale the voltage up to suit your own mass and give it a try on yourself. Let us know how it goes.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 10:29:10 pm
content: Quote from: David Aurora on November 11, 2022, 10:28:09 pmHe should strap it to his nether regions!- write a keylogger on an Arduino which detects when he's writing dumb posts, and sends the electrical punishment multiple times.... and then, a few weeks in, he can assess as to whether it's a good idea for the INNOCENT cat, which is just being a cat, and unable to "be bad". People are SO STUPID...

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 10:32:39 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 11, 2022, 08:50:45 pmClearly a dumb and particularly lazy / vindictive cat then.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 10:35:00 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on November 11, 2022, 10:32:39 pmAnimals' behaviour is VERY often a product of how they are treated. Occam's razor, no?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 10:40:40 pm
content: A few things to understand about cats:They are complex, thoughtful creatures, and they build "grudges" against people they don't like.They don't respond well or at all to negative reinforcement. At most you should tell a cat 'no' when it does something wrong or move it away.Shocking a creature like a cat is immoral when the sole purpose is to protect something material to you. You shouldn't own a cat if you intend to treat it like this.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 11:45:01 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on November 11, 2022, 07:20:40 pmTrim kitty's claws LOL.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 11:52:22 pm
content: its like letting your cat go to the gymthey probobly prevent sprains and stuff doing that kind of exercise

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2022, 02:20:28 am
content: If a cat keeps scratching inappropriate things, give them their own stuff to scratch. I have those cardboard scratchers sitting in strategic locations near furniture and such. My cats almost always prefer to scratch the scratchers rather than improvising on carpet and furniture. Mine are also indoor only so I trip their toenails regularly.

author: timenutgoblin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2022, 02:27:43 am
content: Quote from: eti on November 11, 2022, 07:23:52 pmSource: m.youtube.com/c/howridiculous/videos

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2022, 03:10:37 am
content: Quote from: timenutgoblin on November 12, 2022, 02:27:43 amI like that channel. That was already in my “Watch later” list. I’m pretty sure that swatter would take care of the OP 🤣😂

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2022, 11:36:16 am
content: Firstly it was tongue in cheek! I have no intent to shock my cat!Second I'm 47 I've had cats and dogs my whole like. Angel my cat I have had since when she could barely pee herself, couldn't see and spent the entire day of office work either up my jumper or wrapping herself around my thigh for the body heat she would die without.So I am her mum/dad.On the carpet. She knows exactly what she is doing and she knows I know too. It is done deliberately as a way of getting my attention when she wants something.Cats have no altruism. Cats have no empathy. Cats are born psychopathic narcissists. If a cat wants something, it has zero understanding, will or care about how that impacts any thing or anyone else. There is no reasoning with a cat for that reason. They don't care.All you can do is either provide or deny , or ideally both. ie. "Don't shit on the floor", "Here, shit here instead".I have bought her a whole cat tree with has 3 scratch posts. When I show her to use those, she looks at me as much to say, "No, they don't annoy you."So she knows 100% if she starts pulling piles out of that carpet it WILL get my attention and when I get up, to shoo her, in her mind that is 90% of the battle won, I'm up, I'm coming for her, so if she makes it to the kitchen, I might as well let her out! Which is what she wanted.The plant watering spray gun has been deployed recently. This was successful initially when Angel favouring coming into the office and literally taping me on the fore arm. However it quickly broke down again into a kind of game with her plucking the carpet just to get a reaction out of me then scarpering off and hiding only to return and repeat. I esculated such that she knew it was NOT a game. I followed her, found her and she looked at me with an "Uh oh..." expression and I shot her directly in the face.Following that she was actually very apologetic and affectionate towards me. I think she got the message, realised it was me was her source of food and not to burn bridges with me and anger me as a game.Annoyingly though.... once she was brought in last night she continually made demands to be let out again. "No. It's dark. You never keep the colars I give you, so you can't get out, you'll get hit by a car.". She persisted and persisted. I ignored her.Anyway, you will have a laugh, as my post, intended only in fun mind was made after a repeated attempt on the carpet to get my attention.Later when I went to bed I found out why. She had actually been telling me she needed out to be sick. There was a lovely pile of cat vomit on the floor, right were I put my feet in the morning. Angel was sitting with a satisfied expression like, "Well, I did try and get you let me out!"

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2022, 12:18:59 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on November 12, 2022, 11:36:16 amPut down plastic film on the carpet (or anywhere) where scratching is occurring - kitty does not like to touch it -https://www.amazon.com/Zip-Up-Products-Carpet-Protection-Film/dp/B075QW5J7B/ref=sr_1_2?crid=19F8EDBWQA8M0&keywords=carpet+film&qid=1668255418&sprefix=carpet+film%2Caps%2C131&sr=8-2

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2022, 12:30:43 pm
content: On things like citrus etc.I have tried, dried citric acid spilt on the carpet. I have tried chilli spilt on the carpet. It doesn't deter her. She is not plucking the carpet out of some instinctive claw sharpening ritual, she is doing it solely because it pisses me off and thus gets my attention.I'm going to go back to reinforcing a negative outcome on the plucking by use of the water spray. I will also continue to positively reinforce of her tapping me on the elbow in that I will pay her attention and if I can I will let her out/feed her.I more "humane" technique I considered was a "noise maker". Cat's HATE low frequency vibration, but alas they take quite a bit of power to produce and aren't much fun for humans. It has to be something that will scare her, if it's just a noise under the carpet, she WILL have that carpet up and the potential mouse out and torn to ribbons within 20 minutes.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2022, 06:25:36 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on November 12, 2022, 06:18:00 pm🤣🤣OP will be getting the last part of that if he builds such a device, and maybe not from a feline.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2022, 06:56:27 pm
content: Quote from: eti on November 12, 2022, 06:00:21 pmOh for god sake give over. Go be bitter to someone else.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2022, 09:52:00 pm
content: To answer the original question: an electric fly swatter is unlikely to inflict a serious injury on a cat. I confess, when I was a child I pulled the piezo igniter out of a BBQ and zapped a few flies dead. I'm ashamed to say, decided to zap the cat, which didn't go down well, but no harm was done to the cat, but it did result in a minor injury to my hand, which was well deserved. Needless to say, I didn't do it again. I have zapped my finger with a fly swatter and it's a little stronger than a piezo, but not too bad.From a moral perspective: no, don't do it. You could try old carpet, as mentioned above. An repellent might also work.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 12:42:52 am
content: QuoteBlimey. Not only can't we discuss politics, moderation or non-tech we have to be careful you don't dox us. No wonder many of us try to be anonymous, even on a relatively safe forum like this.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 12:44:21 am
content: Quote from: David Aurora on November 11, 2022, 10:28:09 pmI reckon if you do it to yourself once you won't do it again. Clearly, the process would work

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 01:04:46 am
content: QuoteThe way you've been going on, one would be tempted to be more convincing that it's serious.If you have a problem with posts, just report them to the appropriate authority (Dave, your government, whoever you think best) and leave the detective work to them. If it really is important they can get far more data about someone than you, and they won't give a shit about their online reputation afterwards.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 01:38:39 am
content: Quote from: paulca on November 12, 2022, 11:36:16 am"Firstly it was tongue in cheek! I have no intent to shock my cat!"I've just read this again, carefully, and I want to say I am sorry for going off and taking you literally. I am sure you won't, and wouldn't harm your dear kitty. Please forgive me jumping the gun - I am VERY much averse to cruelty of any kind, you can see that, esp when animals are defenceless little things.I'll delete the rest of my posts just prior to this one, as they serve no purpose and look like I was being vindictive, I wish you all the best, maybe you can make a cat cartoon series like "Henry's Cat"

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 01:53:35 am
content: Whatever the case, water or compressed air is probably equally distasteful to cats as electric shocks and both are far less likely to cause actual injury or pain to the creature. Many cats are also terrified of hobby servos, I have no idea why. Mine ignore them now but a few years go when they were younger when I was setting up an airplane or even just testing a servo my cats would scatter the first time a servo moved.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 01:56:57 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 13, 2022, 01:53:35 amI find that cuddling my cat for a long time and showing her affection, seems to keep her VERY contented. I can't help what frightens her, but I'd never deliberately do so. It's a test of one's character to react in a positive, loving way. If I see her scared, I wouldn't DREAM of intentionally doing it.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 04:48:07 am
content: I truly hope the opening poster doesn’t get to see his cat getting so old, having vestibular problems, having what appears to be a fit and out of control unable to walk for a few minutes…. I think it might wake you up

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 06:12:20 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on November 13, 2022, 12:44:21 amThere is someone addicted to itELECTROBOOM

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 10:31:55 am
content: I am one of those people if you had me a Piezo electric lighter circuit or a fly swap racket... I am going to test it on myself. I have tested everyone I've come across.I'm not going to test one of the wall mounted UV setups in food outlets or butchers shops!The one thing I have never got the balls to test is a piezo electric cigarette ignitor circuit.... to the tongue. Just... no.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 10:39:24 am
content: Quote from: eti on November 13, 2022, 01:56:57 amMy cat is more like a teenager when granny tried to hug and kiss. It's a love hate thing. You can tell she likes it and if you can get her to close her eyes and you stay really still you can get her to forget that she also hates it. Usually however, she stares off with an expression exactly like a grumpy teenager and "puts up" with the cuddle temporarily.It's not that she doesn't like me. After a short unwelcome cuddle she was dart away, then immediately come back and sit beside me, just out of arms reach. She will follow me around the house to be with me. She, on her terms, will approach me for kisses on the head and a little head to head rub. She squeaks, trills and meows at me in affection. Try to pick her up and she resists. The only time she wasn't annoyed at being picked up and cuddled is when she came in soaking wet and shivering and I wrapped her in a towel on my lap for 5 minutes. She accepted that and gave me a nose to nose kiss when she was partly dried enough to go wash the rest off.She has a bit of feral in her I'm sure.This is angel:

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 11:20:11 am
content: I have followed this thread and as a “cat man” and guardian to four very friendly and gorgeous cats I thought I would share something I heard whilst at the Vets the other day……..A lady was describing how her cat did naughty things and she was trying to stop that behaviour. She told the Vet that she tried shouting, throwing soft things and spraying water but none worked. The Vet said that the Veterinary community does not recommend or support anything that shocks the cat as it is ineffective yet causes mental trauma.They explained that a cat does not always associate what it sees as an act of hostility from someone it trusts with an action that it committed to instigate that response. The human act then becomes an act of mental cruelty against the cat ! This is even more the case if the cat is punished after the act that it committed as its mind does not connect the two events. This may be just a cat things as other species may be trained to not do things by providing a disincentive to incorrect behaviour.One of our cats has us trained…. If he wants something, he either PRETENDS or scratch the corner of our Hi-Fi cabinet or he jumps on top of the Hi-Fi and watches us …. If he gets no reaction (us getting up to see what he wants) he jumps onto the mantelpiece above the fire where the expensive Lladro figurines reside ! He definitely gets our attention then ! It is often that he wants biscuits or to be let out if we have closed the conservatory door. On other occasions it is to tell us that another cat is in his favourite snoozing spot or has pushed him out of his food bowl ! We have yet to find a way to dissuade Bailey from this controlling action and sadly the other cats are starting to learn about its effectiveness from watching him ! Billy has started scratching the carpet when he wants something but he is less manipulative than Bailey.Cats are highly developed hunters who expect to get what they want. It is very hard to change that view in a cat and, as the vet suggested, it is all too easy to take action against a cat that is actually harmful and considered cruel in the eyes of those who are expert in cat behaviour. If anyone has a non cruel way to dissuade a cat from doing whatever it wants to do, please let me know.One thing the vet tells me often is that I humanise our cats when they go for operations etc which is fine. But it is also a problem if you apply a humans thought processes to a cat when considering responses to stimuli. From a cats point of view, it often feels safe and contented in the company of its guardian…doing something to such a cat that it does not like can confuse and traumatise it as it does not understand your actions ! In its eyes, you have betrayed its trust.Just some food for thought.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 11:39:05 am
content: A thing I have found is that your "punishment" action can very quickly be turned into a game by the cat.The are typically singular, territorial, anti-social blood thirsty predators. We do tend to humanize them, but you can take the cat away from it's hunting grounds, but you will never take the hunter out of the cat. In that regard, being indoors leads to boredom for the cat. There is only so much "Cat TV" they can watch out the window before they get bored. Kittens and young cats (like mine) especially. They want the chase, the stalking, the pounce. So... when they get bored they look for other things to amuse them.This is where it gets to where I am. I am the toy. She knows exactly which buttons to push and when.This morning was an example. I switched the Sunday 10am alarm off and went back to sleep... or so I thought. But... no. Angel said she wanted me to get up, she wanted out. She plucked at the carpet and I "Pisssssshhhed!" her. I almost got to sleep and ... she started plucking the bed frame. "CAT PLEASE!" and again I nearly got off to sleep. SCRATCH, SCRATCH.... she was on the bed beside me, plucking at the headboard beside my head. As soon as I opened my eyes she bolted. I sat up in bed and she was sitting there on the floor staring at me, tail warpped around her front paws looking pleased with herself. She got what she wanted, I was up.She gave me our signal of "content" and "peace" by closing her eyes momentarily so signal to me that I am not considered a threat and she can take her eyes off me. I returned the gesture. (This is cat speak I picked up. We often use it to de-esculate a play fight. If both of us are wide eyed, fight is still on. If one of us retreats and makes the lazy blink gesture, fights off.).I got up, I let her out. Going for my second coffee she came in, all thankful, rubbing her self against my legs, jumping up on the kitchen counter to get nearer to eye level for a kiss.I just need to find a way to get out from under her control.... without zapping her.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 11:43:30 am
content: On negative stimulous. The reason she doesn't, like a lot of cats would, play with my feet or toes... I have a particularly violent response to feet tickles. She learnt that the hardway when she was a kitten when I involuntarily propelled her through the air one evening after a random attack on my bare feet. Just a reaction to being "tickled", I kicked out. Cat went airborne landing in the corner of the room and I think at that moment she decided not to attack my feet again. In fact she has a far more affectionate relationship with my feet. She will spend ages rubbing herself on them and if I put my hand down to stroke her she steps away, like I've interrupted the lovers.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 01:10:55 pm
content: Heard once somewhere - don't remember where ...Disciplining a dog vs. a catYou see dog chewing on something you don't want it to chew on. You look at the dog and say "No No bad dog don't chew on that!"You see a cat chewing on something you don't want it to chew on. You look in a mirror and say "No No bad human don't leave that thing out to be chewed on!"

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 01:59:37 pm
content: The difference between a dog and cat in a domestic situation is well understood. A dog is a pack animal that wants to please the ‘top dog’ and actively looks for positive outcomes to its behaviour. As has been Said many times, there is no such thing as a “bad” dog, only a bad owner/guardian. A cat, on the other hand, has no true “need” of its human and can survive on its own in the wild. It tolerates a human companion because the human cares for it’s needs and gives it an easy life. I humanise cats and adore them. They detect my positive attitude towards them and reinforce it with nice gestures like ‘talking’, purring and snuggling. It is a win win situation for the cat and it’s human. The human gets a companion and the cat gets well cared for. I am not saying that a cat cannot, or does not, form a close bond to its chosen human, it is the reason for that bond that differs to dogs. Cats are truly amazing survivors and quickly become feral if abandoned as their killer instinct never leaves them, even when in a domestic environment. They are amazing animals and I love ours. The challenge and success of winning a cats affections can be really rewarding to its guardian. Never a dull moment with cats in your family unit.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 02:13:42 pm
content: One final thought….. if you saw a Tiger scratching the carpet and told it to stop ! …. Do you think it would obey ? A cat has the same personality as a Tiger and in its own head, it is just as capable. Why would it listen to us telling it to stop doing something that it wants to do ?It will only stop when it wants to, or fear is introduced to the equation to drive it off. Sadly inducing fear in a cat is a very tricky topic as such can lead to what some may consider animal abuse.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 03:07:10 pm
content: Well I've just got in from cutting the front lawn. Guess what, two more piles of cat shit since I cleaned up before cutting the hedge yesterday. Of course I didn't notice them until I'd been through them with the mower!In my opinion, cat owners should be made to keep their little kitties inside, or at least on their property by whatever means. They should then be made to take them out for walks on leads in the pouring rain, and clean up after them like responsible dog owners are expected to do, rather than being snuggled up all nice and cozy and warm. They should also, like dog owners, be responsible for the damage that their pets do, accidents caused etc. I've had half a dozen dead Slow Worms in the back garden with their heads chewed off by little kitties for the fun of it, not to mention the newts, frogs and brids (are they not increasingly scarce and protected?)An exterme view? Possibly, although I'm beginning to wonder, there are such things as house cats. I'm getting too old to be picking up other peoples' cat shit. As you can probably guess, I'm not a cat owner... but then I'm not a dog owner either.P.S. I'm the one who got an entire outraged WTF thread by tautech, in the Supporters Lounge, for very gently voicing my objection to dogs being electric shocked into attacking Wild Boar, so I don't think I can really be considered an animal hater!

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 03:25:43 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on November 13, 2022, 02:13:42 pmTigers, like all predators are intelligent enough to recognise a bigger predator and back off. Herbivores tend to fight to the death, carnivores fight enough to establish which is stronger and the loser makes for the horizon. I don't think they get their feeling hurt that easily, unless it's another trait that we've bred into the domestic moggie.In the Tiger vs carpet case, you would clearly be the smaller / weaker predator.(Duplicate post removed)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 05:38:03 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on November 13, 2022, 03:07:10 pmI don't have a cat myself, but was raised in a household with cats, so I can see it from both sides. I often have to clear up what I believe to cat crap in my garden, although it might be a fox. Ideally yes, cat owners shouldn't allow their cats to crap in other gardens. As far as keeping cats indoors is concerned, I think it's cruel to the cat, as they can't exercise their natural behaviours indoors. It would be nice if the cat would use the litter tray. Unfortunately it's virtually impossible to keep a cat to one garden. It might be possible to encourage it to crap in their own garden, by having a patch of sand, in a secluded area, where they feel safe.Unfortunately there's not much you can do, other than make life difficult for cats in your garden. I don't know if the ultrasonic repellers are any good. There are also the ones which use a PIR sensor to trigger a water spray, but they're no good in freezing weather and you might need a few of them.

author: Electroplated
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 08:57:23 pm
content: Go to home and bargains and buy one of those green tennis racket type fly swatters, cost about 8 quid.Take it apart and separate the wires that connect the HV charging circuit to the mesh screen, then remove the pcb and battery contacts.With a hacksaw saw off the handle part as it meats the mesh area, you only want the handle part.Reassemble the pcb and battery contact inside the handle and solder two 6 inch lengths of stripped solid core cable to the pcb output wires, a length of 2.5mm t&e is deal for this, make sure the bare wire is kept apart, the idea is to make two sturdy probes, use glue or tape to hold it all together.Insert batteries, power it in, shove the probes down your boxers and see what it feels like, if it blows your nuts off then its safe to say its not suitable to use on a cat

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 10:06:55 pm
content: As someone who has no use for cats I simply don't understand the behavior of cat owners who disown any responsibility for the damaging behaviors of their pets. I can understand and tolerate a truly feral cat who is truly living out natural behaviors, and taking the natural risks of living. But the cat who is fed and protected from predators all day and then turned out to be "natural" against all the small critters in the neighborhood and to keep their home range clean by defecating at or beyond the boundaries of it's territory gets no sympathy from me. I am more than willing to be the bigger, meaner predator. They have no more rights to my property than the rats, mice and other vermin.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 10:19:43 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on November 13, 2022, 10:06:55 pmOwner aside. The cat doesn't have human emotions or morals. It's an animal. A cat still has the same instincts as a wild animal and will continue to hunt because it's preprogrammed to enjoy it.I don't know what the law is, where you live, but in the UK it's still illegal to harm someone else's pet, even if it's on your property without your consent.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 10:25:29 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on November 13, 2022, 10:19:43 pmIts illegal to be wilfully cruel any animal period.The law gets more interesting when it comes to "Animal rights" though and the short version is.... "Is the animal worth money?", "No?" Then if you run over it, you can leave it at the side of the road and forget about it., Yes Or it's a dog. then you can't just leave it there, you are required to show at least an attempt to reach the owner or take the animal to a vet or just call out an emergency vet. You are not necessarily liable to pay the damages though.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 10:47:51 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on November 13, 2022, 10:25:29 pmThat's true, but pest control is perfectly legal. If someone shot a feral cat dead, because it's a pest, it's perfectly legal, as long as they killed it as cleanly as possible and don't inflict unnecessary suffering. If it's someone's pet, then they've broken the law. One might be able argue, they believed it was a feral cat, but I doubt the court would believe them.QuoteReporting running over a dog dates back to the days of dog licensing.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 11:40:36 pm
content: “Law” is beside the point. Rarely do morality and legality intersect. Morals mean vastly more than “law”. The law is an ass, a huge ass with no sense.If I know I’ve got a clear conscience and need to do what keeps it clear, I’ll break the law IF I HAD TO and ONLY if there’s no other way, and I’d prefer not to of COURSE.I’ll answer to God at the end of my life. Not some man in a chair.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2022, 12:22:41 am
content: I know cats can be true bastards sometimes, but that's a bit excessive at least as initial approachJust use some a water spray ot something that releases air and frightens him.If still not working, add some lemon juice or other non-toxic compound she hates, will have to lick it off his fur and probably remember where it came from.Long time ago I had a cat with an obssesion of eating my shoes, tried lemon, spicy stuff, he just didn't care .That motherfeecker even ate solid copper wire one day I was replacing a wall socket.He was probably retarded, none of my other cats were like that, not even his brother, he was just the extra chromosome cat

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2022, 08:02:16 am
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on November 14, 2022, 12:22:41 amThe condition is called Pica, I have a cat that occasionally eats wires too, he was much worse about it when he was young, I had to make sure I picked up my projects off the floor.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2022, 09:17:16 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 14, 2022, 08:02:16 amPica can also affect humans. It can be caused by lack of certain nutrients in the diet and is more common in pregnant women. Oddly enough, the typically substances eaten aren't high in the nutrient the person lacks.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2022, 09:44:08 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on November 13, 2022, 10:19:43 pmI know that cats will be cats. I am speaking to the owners of cats. They are the ones creating the situation by allowing/forcing the animal to live in an situation not balanced by the rules of tooth and claw. In a natural environment an animal that over hunts it's range starved. The problem is self correcting. But a pet cat goes home and eats and continues hunting. This general concept extends to many other cat behaviors.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2022, 09:53:16 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on November 11, 2022, 08:05:38 pm

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2022, 10:11:11 am
content: As the video clearly demonstrates that the cats will not learn after triggering the deterrent multiple times, the first trigger needs to be a more permanent learning experience.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2022, 10:12:14 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on November 14, 2022, 09:44:08 amThat's all very well, but we don't really get the blame for cats. Dogs yes, we bred them into domestication (although first we bred them for work). Cats came along for the ride themselves. Self-domesticating.The explanations are varied. Most believe it was when humans began to cultivate, farm and therefore store food. You store food you attract vermin. Birds and mice and other small critters. Cats seen an opportunity. Hang around the humans it's a win, win, cats get food, humans get pest control. The relationship has been functioning that way for 1000s of years. I don't think you can really call them domestic though. Maybe purely "house" cats, but I'm fairly sure the instinct to survive out there in the wild still exists in most of them. Dogs... not so much. They have been bred far and away from their natural form. They have been heavily domesticed and stand very little chance out in the wild.A lot of the small innocent little critters would not be there if humans had not moved in and brought their food stores, scraps, bins. So the "natural" balance is skewed anyway.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2022, 10:18:07 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on November 14, 2022, 10:11:11 amOne of ours used to climb the flyscreen on the door until he got fed up with receiving sudden super soaker right in the belly as he hung there.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2022, 01:43:29 pm
content: You know, all this talk of cats and other animals not "behaving" or acting like we want them to, destroying "things", etc., we need to just remind ourselves of something.People, many times, aren't much more well behaved than many animals I have had.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2022, 02:07:11 pm
content: At least you can sue people, or bop them on the nose. Or act passive aggressive and just know it's annoying them. Cats... immune to every known wile.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2022, 02:11:19 pm
content: Bop the owner(s) on the nose and make them come and clean it up every day? Just a thought.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2022, 03:32:33 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on November 14, 2022, 02:11:19 pmPut a litter tray in the corner of the lawn for it.If it makes use of it, you can empty it in the neighbours flower beds.(Please seek legal advise before following anything I suggest)

author: Electroplated
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2022, 08:34:59 pm
content: My cat has a habit of plucking the carpets, the solution I found to work was make a scratching post and pad from similar carpet off cuts and entice the bugger near it with tasty treats, it may take some time and effort though.My cat also has other ' interesting ' habits that I could not deal with so I got a big dog, he costs more than a cat but does less damage around the house.Other peoples cats that encroach on my property are dealt with by the dog and a water pistol, these are the only things that seem to work, legally.However, many years ago I had one tom that used to come in if the door was open and stink the house out, first trial anti cat device used cut up pipes strung along the fences on steel wires, all that did was stop the dam thing escaping so I removed the pipes and just made a small 'stinger' circuit, the fed a pair of steel wires, that worked, a few encounters with it and the cat never came back, neither did the window cleaner who used to use his ladder to enter my garden by climbing over the fence, he sent his old man around to tell me I was a nut case and had to find another window cleaner.--

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2022, 03:33:52 am
content: Quote from: paulca on November 14, 2022, 10:12:14 amTypical cat owner response. I have no responsibility.If you live on a farm and the cats moved in without your aid I mostly support this answer. I have farm living relatives that have this happen all the time. Also happens with dogs. Seems that urban and suburban people find a need to let their critters run free and act naturally (and not eat so much food, do so much damage and require so much cleaning up afterwards.) These relatives do find benefit from these animals in pest control, protection from predators (wild and human) and so regularly take these critters in and help them with food and shelter. They do cull the crowd from time to time when the numbers become overwhelming. They try to do it by finding adoption agencies and the lot, but when the problem overwhelms those options other solutions happen.But if you are suburban or urban and adopted or bought a cat and then turn it out of the house at night you are to blame. You have assumed responsibility for the animal, and that includes knowing the innate behaviors of that animal. Your actions are why those innate behaviors are occurring in a given location and time.Do you think that if I owned an elephant and then turned it loose into the neighborhood to do what elephants do naturally that I would have no responsibility for the damage caused by that animal. Of course not. Same thing with a tiger. If you own a tiger and turn it out at night I can guarantee that you better have a good lawyer and deep pockets. The fact that a housecat does much smaller scale damage does not mean it is inconsequential. Even housecats can have truly severe impact on people with extreme allergies or susceptibility to cat born illnesses.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2022, 09:11:58 am
content: So naturally cats avoid suburban and urban areas. Right. I have never seen a feral cat anywhere.Everyone draws a line with nature. Everyone. We all kill millions and millions of life forms a day. Some people stop at flies and bugs. Some people stop at rodents. The fact of the mater is most of those things we kill are a threat to us. We don't see any harm in that.Rats and mice spread FAR more pathogens than cats. And without cats they are far harder and far more dangerous to get rid of. Usually involving poison and chemicals.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2022, 10:40:03 am
content: QuoteIn theory. We had a rat infestation (air brick got holed and they got under the floorboards and eventually chewed through some wiring, plunging the place into darkness). Really very difficult to get rid of them, but we did it with rat poison. Similarly, another lot (perhaps the same ones) turned up in the chicken palace due to the free food, and the only way to get rid of those was poison.OTOH, the cats bring in kills and leave entrails around, typically just where you're going to walk before being fully awake. Sometimes they can't be bothered to eat the thing and leave half or more of it spread around. I'm fairly sure not having to clean that up would be less risk disease-wise!Cats no doubt keep the rodent population down, but they're not a sure-fire solution. We have lots of cats around here (no problem with someone's cat shitting on someone elses lawn because their cats just do it back) but I still see huge rats in the ditches and drainage outlets sometimes.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2022, 10:47:42 am
content: I would never advocate cruelty to animals. However, cats are evil little douchebags and deserve everything they get.In fact, I find it odd that anyone who like animals can like domestic cats too. You just have to see them torturing rodents for fun or aimlessly killing birds to realise that they're a huge net negative in the natural world.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2022, 10:59:07 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on November 11, 2022, 08:31:54 pmAdvice to the cat?------"Get off my lawn!"

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2022, 11:29:11 am
content: Quote from: Fred27 on November 15, 2022, 10:47:42 amSome of you may not remember the TV show "Kung Fu" but it had many clips of wisdom I remember to this day -

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2022, 11:34:03 am
content: The topic of cats is always divisive but I love them, and their Big Cat cousins, and always willP.s. I am a guardian to 4 well balanced adorable cats who want for nothing, live in our large house and have an outside play area. They are not allowed to roam the neighbourhood causing trouble killing birds and wildlife or pooping in peoples gardens. We are responsible cat guardiansInteresting to note… many cat rescues support cats being kept indoors rather than allowed to roam neighbourhoods where they are at risk of harm or causing a nuisanceI lived in Australia so understand the harm that cats can do to indigenous small animals and birds.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2022, 11:53:53 am
content: Quote from: Fred27 on November 15, 2022, 10:47:42 amThe problem is, you're projecting human emotions on to animals. Cats are no worse than other animals. Animals might look cute but they lack morals. Rats and mice for instance will eat one another. Birds will eat other birds. Other animals also kill others and don't eat them: wolves will kill coyotes and not eat them.What's controversial is keeping cats as pets. They can be a nuisance to other people and kill engendered species, but they also control harmful pests. There are things which cat owners can do to minimise the impact of their pets, such as keeping them in at night, but some consider that to be inhumane to the cat.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2022, 12:11:32 pm
content: I have tried hard to keep my cat an indoor-at-night cat. The plan was to never let her be out after dark, so she never got that drug in the first place. That of course didn't work. She managed to stay out all night several times and that was that over with. I often feel sorry for her, because she asks so desperately to get out after dark and looks so distraught when I tell her "no.". Most likely why she turns to me as a toy in the evenings. Although weirdly, she has started to tell me to go to bed! I think it's because she wants to be in the room with me, but as it's nighttime, she doesn't like the main lights on, she would prefer that I come and join her in the darkened bedroom where she is more comfortable.Cats are not free from predators in sub-urban and urban areas. A quite frighteningly large percentage of domestic cats are killed by their no. 1 predator. The family car.On keeping them in at night being "inhumane". I'd rather it not get run-over, but yes.. I have been looking for a robotics project with a purpose and having a few random toys around the place which spontaneously activate at night might benefit us both!Probably starting with a single servio attached to a laser pointer in the hallway. Mosfet to turn it off. Try and make it respond to the cat, but also be stuborn and not respond sometimes as well.My cat likes games. I feed her these jerky style treats, she goes NUTS for them. So i took to placing them just out of easy reach, or hiding them in hard to get to places. After a while the cat would start dropping the treat again and looking at me like the challenge I had set was too easy. The last one was thrown into a pile of cardboard boxes in the junk room. Took the cat half an hour to get in there and find it.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2022, 03:41:40 pm
content: Quote from: Fred27 on November 15, 2022, 10:47:42 amNo, they are a caricature of the natural world. Human intervention has given them slightly more room to spread misery and death than most normal predators, but it's just a matter of degree.Nature sucks.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2022, 12:37:58 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on November 15, 2022, 11:53:53 amAnthropomorphising is a software glitch of the human firmware. It astounds me, how little people know about their pets and how they function.

author: aeberbach
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2022, 03:37:58 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on November 13, 2022, 10:19:43 pmWhere I live local council encourages the capture of the cat, in a suitable cage (which I think they loan out, I have not asked), then the council animal officer comes and collects it. Owner pays a fine.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2022, 08:23:19 am
content: Quote from: eti on November 16, 2022, 12:37:58 amYou can make a value judgement about animals without thinking they have a human capability to make moral decisions.Being an animal does not exempt a cat from being an evil little douchebag. They can't help it, but to an extent we can, at some point perhaps for all animals without destroying the ecosystem. Playing God.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2022, 08:57:13 am
content: Quote from: Marco on November 16, 2022, 08:23:19 amThen perhaps humans are the biggest evil little douchebags on the planet, as we can help it.Quote from: aeberbach on November 16, 2022, 03:37:58 amIt seems like a good idea in theory, but I find that hard to believe. I'm not aware of any laws preventing cats from going in other people's gardens and doubt the owner can be fined, unless it has damaged property or made a mess. I regularly get cats in my garden. I probably find a turd ones every two months but don't know for certain whether it's a cat's. How do they find the owner in order to fine him or her?Quote from: paulca on November 15, 2022, 12:11:32 pmCats can also be a pain for the owner when kept in overnight, but that's part of the responsibility of having them. My parents had two cats. They normally went out at night, but when kept inside, they would often run about the house. I would always keep my bedroom door closed to stop them from coming in and waking me up.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2022, 08:37:56 pm
content: A flame thrower works well in this application. Collateral damage, however, is a bitch.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2022, 11:55:37 pm
content: Quote from: Fred27 on November 15, 2022, 10:47:42 amI think that most people that don't like cats have never taken the time to get to know one. Cats are introverts so it takes them a while to warm up to a person, and I can totally relate because I'm exactly the same way, my personality is very cat-like. My cats are very devoted to me and provide companionship without being clingy and dependent the way dogs are. They're self-cleaning and deposit their waste in a box so I never have to take them out. Rodents are nasty little parasites and cats getting rid of them is doing me a favor. My cats are indoor only so they don't bother the birds but frankly I'm not a big fan of birds either, they're noisy and they shit all over my car, I would much rather watch cats lounging in my garden than birds.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2022, 11:57:21 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on November 16, 2022, 08:57:13 amThey are highly adaptable. While naturally nocturnal, I've had cats my whole life and usually after a few months they have adjusted to sleeping most or all of the night and being more active in the day when I'm around. As they get older they typically get calmer and sleep more, just like old people.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2022, 06:15:57 am
content: Fraser, you are obviously a responsible cat owner. Not a surprise, you seem to do just about everything right.My definition of a feral cat is one that is living without being intentionally fed or sheltered by a human. In urban environments they are often called alley cats. They are not socialized to humans, though in some cases they can be. They are relatively infrequent in undeveloped areas because there are more predators and food sources are more difficult. Here in North America the most common cat eaters are coyotes, bobcats and some species of hawks and owls. These feral cats also exist in suburban environments, adapting to sheds, stoops, stored cars and other structures for shelter and dining on pet food intended for dogs and tame cats, as well as vermin, trash, small birds and anything else they find or can catch. If you haven't seen one of these you either aren't looking very hard, or didn't recognize what you saw. A prominent blogging veterinarian here in the US is fervently against killing stray and feral cats, but recommends capture, spaying and release as a way to allow these cats to "live their natural lives" while bringing the problem gradually under control. I know of very few places where there is enough effort put into this to actually cause a population decline.Liking or not liking cats is a personal preference. I don't find the rewards match the effort, but I can easily see that others feel differently. My personal preferences are buttressed by significant allergies to the critters. Not surprisingly you often find that among the most fervent cat lovers are children. They get the benefits of cat ownership while mom and dad often deal with all the downsides (food, litterboxes, furniture repairs and vet bills to name a few).I haven't actually killed or harmed a cat, but do haze them regularly to attempt to keep them away from my property. But I continue to be irritated by cat people who blithely ignore or dismiss complaints about the critters that they foist on the area. If the critter would not be there without your actions it is difficult to argue that there is no responsibility. To me it is like someone playing loud music saying that sound travels in all directions. It is physics and nothing they can do anything about.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2022, 08:47:41 am
content: Like everything I think humans virtue signal their humanity and cherry pick their examples.Probably more rodents and criters killed per loaf of bread than by any domestic cat, for example.If you want to live your life completely sin free and without harm to any other life. Best end it. That's about the only way.Also in a lot of areas of life, if you don't kill, you don't survive. Consider if we include everything down to the bacteria and other pathogenic life. If you don't kill, it will kill you.

author: aeberbach
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2022, 10:31:24 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on November 16, 2022, 08:57:13 amIt can be hard to accept that things are done differently in different parts of the world eh? Typically pets are registered and chipped here - a vet inserts a grain of rice RFID pellet under the pet’s skin. The information on that pellet can be scanned fairly easily, so it is no trouble to find the owner. If unregistered the animal goes to the RSPCA (where it is registered and chipped before being offered for adoption).

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2022, 04:52:49 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on November 17, 2022, 08:47:41 amFor you a billion others and predators won't stop toying with prey either. Unless you can stop the universe, the only way way to reduce suffering in it is helping humanity's technological and moral progress in life ... by arguing with strangers on the internetEven the Zen Buddhist from xrunner's Kung Fu clip has a more productive way to deal with suffering, go around and teach people it doesn't matter. Zen can not keep the cat from ripping up the carpet though, it can just teach you it's not a problem. Technology in the form of say a scratching post and positive/negative rewarded behaviour modification can keep the cat from ripping up the carpet. Zen and technology both provide solutions, suicide is just avoiding responsibility.