Diversity, Equity and Inclusion - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 03:36:13 pm
content: So the almost daily emails I get in work now are starting to become "uncomfortable".I fully support the objectives. I just question the narrative on grounds of irony/contradiction and hypocrisy.First, since when did it become "Equity", rather than "Equality".Second, since when was it inclusive to have an advert for a women's only event in same email, to discuss incentivising women in tech.I really have to start questioning their definitions of these words they use as all I am seeing is latent discrimination becoming blatant discrimination.A recent email highlighted women's success by increasing the hiring rate for women to 47%! Did the applicant ratio of men to women change? Nope. Is 47% about 1000% over representative? Yep.Then they have the irrelevant discriminators. Sex, sexuality, race, nationality, gender, preferred gender, preferred pro-noun and asking everyone to put their preferred pro-noun on their email signatures!It seems they are looking at diversity and equality in a completely different way these days. It seems to be more about discriminating, labelling, asking people to identify and box themselves, counting them and publishing metrics on "diversity" to managers and hirers, so that they might avoid the "Straight white males" that are holding the company back!However. I already tried to raise this as an honest discussion somewhere else and it just got locked instantly. This is not surprising me. It's facism. If you don't tow the party line, if you don't sing with their narrative you are obviously a right wing bigot who should be silenced quickly.I'm honestly in fear that if I raised it in work with HR I would get disciplined.I don't feel comfortable as a straight white male anymore in work. I feel like I'm unwelcome. I feel like promotions and pay rises are going to pass me by and go to women or "diverse" people instead. Look I know some men have and continue to be assholes to women, but I don't think it's fair punishing the entire sex, especially not in work. Keep that shit on Facebook and Twitter.Where are the discussions on skills diversity? Ability diversity? Teamwork diversity? Diversity in leadership styles, methodologies, approaches.... it seems the whole point has been forgotten in this wave of virtue signalling non-sense over less than 10% of the population in one hand and blatant discrimination of male employees to boot.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 03:39:42 pm
content: Oh and all 8 people awarded the highest company award this year were..... women.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 03:53:53 pm
content: I guess the best thing you can do is finding a new job or at least explore the job market, take some interviews even if do not intend changing the job yet. Your current company will probably implode anyway unless they abandon this nonsense politics. Replacing workers with best skills by those who match their woke quotas does not bode well with productivity. Or you could start "identifying" as woman for work purposes, and chose pronoun accordingly

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 04:01:57 pm
content: In engineering (software engineering in my specific case), I think there is an observable outcome that suggests a strong possibility that some effects are happening to cause the profile of working engineers to be very different from the profile of the overall population.Now, that could happen from a bunch of reasons that might be completely okay, supportable, understandable, or even beneficial.Or it might be from biases or filters that we should work to reduce.For my own actions, I'm very supportive of examining the questions and working to reduce apparent biases (or even introducing offsetting biases) when they involve groups of people.As a concrete example: I fully support adding all-women's or historically-black colleges with strong tech programs to the set of campuses that we recruit at. I also support something like the "Rooney Rule" for professional hiring levels.I do not support introducing "offsetting biases" when it comes down to individual people.As a concrete example: While I fully support recruiting at Wellesley College or Florian A&M, I don't support having a different hiring bar for candidates from those schools versus others. Similarly, while I support the Rooney Rule (or equivalent), I don't support differences in promotion or hiring criteria to give "diverse candidates" an advantage. I find the desire to award such advantages understandable but still significantly undesirable.IMO, you fix inappropriate discrimination with a strong move towards fairness and impartiality, not with counterbalancing/offsetting discrimination.Inappropriate discrimination is unfair, undesirable, and value-destroying regardless of the motivations of the people practicing that discrimination.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 04:03:10 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 17, 2022, 03:53:53 pmOfficer thinking.Moving won't help. I've been working for one company contracted out to three different companies. Over the past few years and they are all the same.Straight white male. Do not apply. We want diverse people and women.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 04:11:58 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 17, 2022, 04:01:57 pmAbsolutely agree. It can even expand to include not just bias towards "types of people", but also bias towards (or away from) various jobs, sectors and roles. In that women in university and through lower schooling and somehow being steered clear of STEM/Tech. Are they being steered or are they steering themselves? These are good questions. Finding answers would be beneficial and if anything need correcting, work on it.However, if you have a 5% applicant rate being women and you start hiring 20% women to try and force address the issue artificially ... I stop agreeing with the narrative/agenda. Two wrongs don't make a right.The meme that went around where they had to career fairs stalls, one with "STEM" and one with "gender studies" and stood outside the gender studies booth were 4 women with placards complaining about there being too few women in tech. I found it concise to the point and ironically accurate. If you want more women in tech, have more women study and apply to tech. Period. If they aren't applying, find out why and fix THAT. Stop discriminating to artificially increase your "diversity score".

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 04:16:06 pm
content: Do you prefer that your Surgeon, Airline Pilot or Lawyer be selected on the basis of their color or ethnicity, or on the baisis of their skill and experience?I could give a @#%^$%% about the color or ethnicity, I WANT A GREAT EXPERIENCE SURGEN , AIRLINE PILOT,not selected for DEI/political/donations by a government beurocratJ

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 04:18:02 pm
content: A different opinion on why they are doing this came from a senior recruiter. He told me they are marketing to the young people in or just leaving university. Surprisingly one of the first things they ask is about the LGBT+ policies and whether they can change their pro-nouns in work. etc. Apparently that even comes before "What is the salary?"So these large companies have all poured money into this initiative to try and attract more of the younger talent.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 04:25:58 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 17, 2022, 04:11:58 pmNorway as example of equality and freedom of choice at their pinnacle shows that disproportion only grows when people are given a free choice. Women simply don't want these types of jobs if want to work at all. This garbage is not only oppressing men, it also coerces women into something they won't be happy with.https://en.unesco.org/EQUALS/ICT-GE-paradox

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 04:28:26 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 17, 2022, 04:11:58 pmI'm virtually sure that I agree with you in philosophy, but I think this example is flawed.Imagine a field (say, software engineering) that both pays very well and is inherently interesting to some people who have an aptitude for it. That 19:1 male to female ratio might exist because all of the people who find it interesting and have an aptitude apply and (in addition) a bunch of men apply because it pays well and, since most jobs suck anyway, you might as well try to work at one that pays well.Further imagine the applicant pool consists of 4 women with aptitude, skill, and interest for software engineering, 16 men with aptitude, skill, and interest for software engineering, and 60 men who picked software because they liked video games and Google or their high school guidance counselor gave them a list of the highest paying professions.In such a situation, you might very well find that the average female candidate is better than the average male candidate (by virtue of a bunch of the addition of that last group of men to the pool). It doesn't even have to be that 4x as many men are trying to join the field because of pay. The candidates who have lesser skills, interview poorly, and aren't selected don't just dematerialize; they keep applying for jobs, meaning they keep showing up and not getting selected until one day they wiggle a little higher on the interview performance or click a little better with the interviewer and get hired. When they do land a job, they might be fired more frequently (and thus be over-represented in the applicant pool from this effect).Just because a group is hired at a higher rate doesn't mean there's inappropriate discrimination at play. In the example above, an ideal interviewing process would hire all 4 women and the 16 men with aptitude, skill, and interest for software engineering. That would result in 20% of hires being women from a pool that was only 5% women applicants, but would be an entirely "correct" outcome.Anecdotally, in 30 years of working in software, I almost never run across a female software engineer who is terrible. I've run across quite a few men who are terrible at it. It's quite possible that the women who would be terrible at it are filtered out earlier in the pipeline (or alternatively, that the men who are terrible at it were attracted to it for reasons other than inherent interest and competence).

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 04:54:34 pm
content: Please, please, please, do not project that on me, I am not saying anything bad about women engineers. I think every single lady engineer I have worked with has been diligent and skilled. I really, do honestly value them.Your point cheers me up no end. You are asking me to consider that women are better at the job and they are only now realising this and will be taking over the work place in the next decade.I have 20 years to retirement, do you think I'll make it?Maybe I can pick up a late career in health care.EDIT: In one of my tech classes for software, around age 19, the class had 12 people in it. Only 1 woman. She left after the first of 4 semesters stating that she felt uncomfortable as the only girl. The senior lecturer was a little frank one day with me and pointed out that the pattern repeats that every time there is only 1 woman in a class they leave. If you can manage to get 2 of them into a class at least, they tend to stay.

author: HuronKing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 04:55:56 pm
content: I'm going to be the one to take what will likely be the unpopular position in this forum...Women have been actively excluded from the general workforce, but especially STEM disciplines and jobs, for literally thousands of years. The first black woman ever to get a Ph.D. from MIT didn't happen until 1973. MIT has been in existence since 1861:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_Ann_JacksonThe first woman to ever get a mechanical engineering Ph.D. in the United States happened in 1959!!! This isn't ancient history.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lois_Graham#First_woman_in_US_to_earn_mechanical_engineering_PhDSay nothing for trans/gay people in which it was literally a crime to be gay within living memory (the USA did not start to even begin decriminalizing it until 1962 starting with Illinois).Y'all whining so much about 'unfair discrimination...' the fact is that there is a LOT of work to be done to undo thousands of years of holding back human civilization. We've kept at least half our available brainpower away from learning STEM because they have vaginas and kept even more by discriminating against people they are gay, or have the wrong color skin.I've met a lot of incompetent white men who fail upwards - and met a lot of hyper-competent minorities and women (and I remember them because there are so few in the STEM field in the first place) who are expected to work twice as hard to earn what's been historically awarded to certain demographics by discrimination and even by law.FYI I'm a straight white male.

author: HuronKing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 05:00:03 pm
content: Here's something else to ponder. Companies that have used AI to find candidates, even in the efforts of perfect equality, often just end up perpetuating the racist stereotypes that built out the makeup of their workforce in the first place (because the AI is trained on data of a workforce that was historically built on discrimination by race, gender, or sexual orientation):https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence_in_hiring#ControversiesAnd of course, this:https://xkcd.com/385/

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 05:09:03 pm
content: Fun fact, on diversity and working with others. My employer asked me if I was going to start coming back into the office. I said, "Why, I don't work in Belfast."They said, "What do you mean?""You are the first Irish voice I have heard since last Tuesday. I work in Singapore.""What do you mean you work in Singapore?""The first person I speak to, my customer side manager is in Singapore, his manager is in Singapore and 95% of the larger team are in Singapore, with the other 5% being in India. Even my team in the UK are all Indians. Not being awkward, but when the last company recognition email went out I was on page 3 before I spotted a single white guy. But that's perfectly normal, as I am working in Singapore after all. But come into the office in Belfast? Why? And sit on my own?"I've started to have to learn a bit of Indian words, sometimes the emails slip in translation, but I learnt a lahk is 100,000, which was interesting after I had to google it.Lovely people, completely different ways of working and completely different work and life ethics, but hey, I'm easy going. I do somewhat feel like I'm working in a foreign country while sitting in my office at home. Quite strange. Nothing against them, but I do feel a little disassociated from my own people out here.Am I the asshole?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 05:39:23 pm
content: The biggest problem is the labeling in itself. men/women black/white gay/straight . we are all HUMAN. stop using those classifications and stop this endless i/he/she/we classify as xyz. Stop putting people in boxes. And stop putting yourself in a box. and most of all stop telling other people to put you in a box you want to be put in. there would be a lot less noise in the world.

author: MarginallyStable
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 06:00:03 pm
content: Quote

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 06:02:06 pm
content: Looking for another job is the best option. Where I work we have non of this BS. My manager employs people firstly on the basis of competence and secondly if he feels they will fit in within the company. We don't even care for degrees. We do have one Asian colleague, he was hired for his ability not because of his ethnicity. We would take a female engineer, not a female, but a female engineer, no issues there but we don't have a silly policy about it.We are a small company.Any time I fill out a form that asks about my ethnicity I refuse to give it, particularly if it says some crap like "in order to make sure we are serving everyone please tell us what you are". I don't see how them knowing helps. I will only disclose ethnicity for medical reasons.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 07:32:16 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on August 17, 2022, 05:39:23 pmHear'Hear! (old speak for 'wat e said')

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 07:39:03 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 17, 2022, 06:02:06 pmAbsolutely. I never fill in the ones that are legally optional. Unfortunately there are reglatory filtered biases where I live. Around race, religion and 'background of up bringing'. They leave the option "I consider myself to be a member of neither Protestant or Catholic communities.", however anyone who has read the government guidance documents knows, when you put that, they just look up your "probably alignment" from your postal code, used to be your primary school.Looking for another job won't help. They all have this agenda these day. It just depends on how much they can force it in the locale they are working in. I don't think the UK/EU/Ireland based company I am actually employed in are that bad, although literally every top award and most promotions were women. The big US company I spent my days for in Singapore are going nuts with it. It is them who have completely abandoned all vale of fairness and equality and literally reworded it:"Diversity, Equity and Inclusion"Apparently it's the entire department (1000s of people) has been rebranded with the emblem tag line: "Digitization, Innovation, Diversity Control"That really sounds like "All animals are inclusive, but some animals are more inclusive than others."Logical puzzle. Excluding people for not being inclusive enough, is that the same as the tolerating intolerance paradox thing?

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 07:45:11 pm
content: Couldn't have put this better myself!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 07:56:49 pm
content: As Jordan Paterson puts it: Men are interested in things and women are interested in people. Some will try to use the excuse that it is upbringing that forces women to choose certain roles, I think that reasoning is outdated. Yes some women will be interested in tech but it's just a matter of whatever you want to call it that most are more interested in other things. Of course we have a few notable cases of renowned women it tech that turned out to be con artists whilst celebrating them being women in tech. I bet the interviewers of Elizabeth Holmes are felling rather stupid, or are just too stupid to see that they were had.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 09:44:32 pm
content: Use of the word "equity" rather than "equality" is very deliberate, many people do not know the difference but they mean very different things. DEI is an entire industry in itself these days, and it is an openly sexist and racist industry that is anything but inclusive. It is pushed by the people that are obsessed with identity politics and value group membership above individuality. As an individual first and member of various groups *very* distant second, I loathe this mentality. These people are absolutely obsessed with race and gender and everything else that divides us, they will freely and openly discriminate in order to try to force equality of outcome. I too am afraid to even mention any of this at work, because I know I will be labeled and discriminated against for merely questioning the narrative.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 02:09:33 am
content: Quote from: paulca on August 17, 2022, 03:36:13 pmThere are only two options:1) If you are not happy with the policies at work and/or the movement in society in this direction then you have to speak up about it. Yes, you may get disciplined, be outright fired, or secretly demoted andhave your life made more difficult until you quit. But that seems to be the price paid these days. Even when explicitly asked for your feedback on the topic, look at what happened to James Damore. You can try and do this delicately or forcefully of course, IME it doesn't seem to make much difference to the outcome, but it may.2) Don't say a thing and live with it. Changing jobs may not help, it's very pervasive these days, especially in larger organisations.Pick your poison.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:36:34 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 17, 2022, 09:44:32 pmYep.And as always, there is ultimately just one question to ask: who exactly benefits from this whole movement?The answers may not be all that pleasing.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:58:01 am
content: Men benefit from feminism because even feminists admit that men rule the world.If you don't benefit from feminism, perhaps you aren't man enough

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:24:04 am
content: Jordan Peterson is very fair and has done his research over his long career. This video is bound to show up in this thread sooner or later, so here it is:

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:35:29 am
content: Oh yeah, this thread is going to go over well, I can smell it...Jordan Peterson, besides generally saying many words with little substance, is widely critiqued and discredited, especially for his association to the alt-right in recent years. Which tells you all you really need to know about his followers. Anyway, some salient points here:

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:43:48 am
content: For those who want to know how deep the rot goes on this topic. Not only have I personally been attempted "cancelled" over this (which I really don't care about, water off a ducks back), but most disturbingly, friends and associates of mine have been attacked and they have tried to ruin their lives overmere associationwith someone who has the "wrong opinion" on this topic.It is toxic to the core.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 05:09:29 am
content: This is what happens when people watch TV instead of minding their own business. And TV is privately owned in certain parts of the world, so...Quote from: T3sl4co1l on August 18, 2022, 04:35:29 amYou don't understand, he is a hero appointed by God and United Nations to infiltrate the underworld of 4***n and teach those losers to clean their socks instead of shooting up schools and shopping malls.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 06:35:46 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 04:43:48 amI think your attitude toward it is really the only thing a person can do to push back, practice the art of not giving a shit, and most importantly never, ever apologize, because doing so will not appease the mob in the least, instead it is an admission of guilt and they will pounce all the more ferociously. The whole thing looks a lot like a rebranding of the old witch trials.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 06:54:33 am
content: Quote from: Simon on August 17, 2022, 07:56:49 pmNot just "men" and "women", it applies to other primates as well. BBC Two has a video from a few years back, doing their own experiment with macaques:Exactly because every individual is different -- that's why we are not representatives of "our group"; every single one of us represents a "group" of exactly one, themselves! –– there are natural, biological, evolutionary differences that makes "equity" (equality of outcome, as opposed to equality of opportunity) an utterly unfair proposition.Fairness is a stronger, deeper thing than any oppression. An individual can be happy even if they are somewhat oppressed; but almost nobody can be happy in an unfair situation, even if objectively or statistically they have it better than someone else. Plus, while oppression seems to be a human concept, "fairness" is something that is observed across species:It is not "the group" that spans the spectrum: it is the individuals. Anything that promotes a group over individuals is fundamentally unfair, and wrong.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:00:09 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 18, 2022, 06:35:46 amIn my case when they tried to cancel me I just ignored them, but when they went after my friends and tried to destroy them that was when I had to speak out, that crossed the line.Unfortunately many (most?) people are not in the position I am to be able to ignore this stuff when I speak up about it. These people will go after your job, your sponsors, your funding platforms, and even your banks and other things.And these attacks arealwaysin the one direction from extreme left to supposed right.

author: Zoli
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:07:33 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 18, 2022, 06:35:46 amJust a reminder what will happen if no one takes position:https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/martin-niemoeller-first-they-came-for-the-socialists

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:34:13 am
content: Quote from: HuronKing on August 17, 2022, 04:55:56 pmThat may very well have been true in the past, but it's not been the case for at least the last 20 years.Correlation doesn't mean causation. The under-representation of a certain demographic in a field is not proof of discrimination. The fact Islamic countries have a greater proportion of women shows this. There will always be more people of a certain demographic doing a specific job or activity. It's not possible to construct a system where every demographic is equally represented in all walks of life, whilst maintaining a fair society.The problem is, discrimination in the opposite direction, known as positive discrimination in the UK or affirmative action over the pond, is now making things worse. It results in unsuitable candidates being selected and a poorer quality workforce.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 08:12:51 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on August 18, 2022, 04:35:29 amI haven't watched that video yet. I might not agree with everything he says, but he definitely makes more sense than some of the far-left radicals. Matt Walsh is another person on the right who talks a lot of sense.The person X is bad, so all of what they say is wrong, mob mentality of many people nowadays is grating. You do know it's possible to agree with someone on one thing, even if you strongly disagree or even despise some of their other views. I think many people forget that.Would you employ someone who votes for a politician or disagrees with you on something, even though they might be the best person for the role? If not, why not?Going from our discussions on other threads, it appears you disagree with me on many things, yet I thing you're one of the best engineers here. The fact you might be on a different part of the political spectrum than me wouldn't put me off working with you, just as long as we can agree to disagree and keep politics out of work.Quote from: paulca on August 17, 2022, 04:03:10 pmLook for jobs in smaller organisations, which are less likely to be so woke. In the meantime, pretending to be trans does sound like a good workaround. All you need to do is state you identify as the opposite sex nowadays. No treatment is necessary. You could wear something a bit more feminine at work, just to prove the point.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 08:37:55 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 18, 2022, 07:34:13 amLiterally right up the vice president of the United States who was as great of an example of diversity hire as you'll ever see, and admitted to as such.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 08:43:01 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 18, 2022, 08:12:51 amFortunately all this has happened after I left the corporate work force.But part of me wishes I was still there to see what my reaction would be if they tried to force me into the training and job selection etcBut again, I'd have screw-you money to speak up, but many people don't have that luxury and have to protect their jobs.And yes, far less likley to find this at smaller companies. Not sure how pervasive it is here in Australia? I don't think it's as extreme.Hard choice for the OP, depends on their circumstances.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 08:45:46 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 07:00:09 amIt feels like someone connected a very, very left voltage source to that scale and while I thought I was slightly left of centre, I now find myself out on the right apparently. They shifted the scale under me and now I feel a little unsafe.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 08:56:53 am
content: Honestly. I thought my message was simply pointing out an in balance, but on another forum of mostly middle aged bikers, where I thought there might be support, I got called a fascist and the after the admin had called me names he locked the thread. Then when I started a new thread to ask WT Heck? He did the same things again.I sent him a Subject Eraser request with a catalogue of entries removed emailed to me as confirmation as they don't provide a "delete account" feature. He is free to ask me for a reasonable admin fee. I'm tempted to make his life hell over this and keep going back and asking for individiual entries with my name or a mention be removed also. It might be fun, but I expect it's not worth it.Anyway, I think I'll take the advice in here, I was starting to get the idea anyway.SHUT UP. It's not worth fighting it and saying anything does really present a risk, not just to your job! Time to stay quiet for a while longer. My gut feeling is there will be others behind me soon enough, including some women, who are not happy with wondering if they are a diversity hire or not. Now is not the time. Let it simmer for a while yet.I do fear for the industry though. I expect this simmering will go on too long. Software industry is in deep troubles at the moment with over capacity and bottom end quality. We don't need this right now. We do need more women and more good people generally, but we do not need this at this time.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 09:08:41 am
content: One way to address all this gender nonsense is when certain people clamour for a female head of state, or for half of the board of directors of a company to be women, or some similar situation, is to ask them would it be an acceptable solution if those male incumbent people now identified as women? And if that is not acceptable, why not? Would they not actually be women despite identifying as such? A large enough group of people will be divided on this issue and begin fighting among themselves. Then just walk away and leave them to it.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 09:14:19 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on August 18, 2022, 04:35:29 amYes, let's define everyone a follower, because it is impossible for a human being to listen to contradictory opinions and make up their own minds.Anyone who listens to people I do not like is an enemy, and that tells you all you really need to know about them.Right?Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 04:43:48 amAs history shows, the results of this will once again be completely different to what has been touted as the reason for doing this.Then, we'll have that "But nobody could have predicted this [even though they described this exact outcome time and time again, we could not listen to them because they disagreed with us and therefore were necessarily excluded from interaction]" handwashing and blameshifting, before the cycle repeats once again.I am tired of this.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 09:34:50 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on August 18, 2022, 09:08:41 amThe gender stuff is beyond the joke. It's funny how many in favour of standing up for women's rights can't even define what a woman is.Quote from: paulca on August 18, 2022, 08:56:53 amYou'll get called names. Don't take it personally. I got recently called names because I expressed concern over the high rates of immigration to the UK. Of course I don't have a problem with foreigners. I just think this country is full up, the current rate of population growth due to immigration is unsustainable and too many of those who've come here don't share our values of freedom and tolerance.Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 18, 2022, 09:14:19 amThanks for putting what I said above more succinctly. It's not as simple as X is all bad and Y is all good. For example, I agree with Trump on some things, yet he has said and done many foolish and reckless things.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 09:36:25 am
content: Quote from: paulca on August 18, 2022, 08:45:46 amThat's called a shift in the Overton Window, and it is a much analysed and discussed topic. People (like me) who considered themselves left (even far left in many regards) now find themsleves in the "centre", because the Overton Window has well and truly shifted to the left. But to the new extreme left you are now marked as a right wing nutjob, alt-right, or something to that effect. That's why the new left are eating themselves, with J.K.Rowing being a classic high profile example.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 09:41:41 am
content: On Peterson. A lot of people watch the 5 minute click bait excerpts designed to trigger. A lot of people take sound bites from him out of context. A lot of what he says is very uncomfortable to discuss or even hear in some cases.However if you look past the "viral meme" stuff and actually look at what he does as a clinical psychologist, he is pretty renowned in the field and does some really good work.I came across this last night. It's always been clear to me that Peterson suffers greatly within, he rarely shows it to the surface, but occasionally it does.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 09:48:59 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 09:36:25 amI can't remember who commented. It might have been Peterson (of course), but while society has at least got some form of elastic limit on how far right it will go, certain periods in history aside and the always present risk of another real rise of the far right... they is still a common felt limit on the right.The left however have not found that limit yet and they are hell bent on pushing and pushing and pushing. I'd expect it's a lot of the younger idealistic generations, but I fear by the time they actually grow up and the world they pushed to be created starts to be handed over to the them, they start to actually be responsible for it... it won't be what they wanted it to be and I'll expect they'll hate it and they will also hate the next new generation coming along and tipping it all back over on it head again.A friend put it to me as a pendulum. Things swing back and forward, men have had their patriarchal times and now it's swung in the favour of women and minorities. The problem is, when the pendulum is swing naturally with the flows of life it only swings so far, so when it swings back, it only swings so far. At the moment however there is quite a large mass movement pushing the pendulum further and further to the point the whole grandfather clock is tilting precariously. If, no, when the movement runs out of strength of an uprising happens against it, the momentum it will have swinging back the other way could see us exceed WWII's period of darkness.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 10:23:01 am
content: I think much of the shift to the left in the west, comes from the fear of the right, from what happened in Germany. Unfortunately extreme left-wing policies have caused far more death and destruction, but it didn't happen in the west, so we've become complacent.Many left wing goals are good in theory: giving money to the poor, not discriminating against minorities and those who have been historically marginalized. This is also why many who disagree with left wing organisations are labeled as bad. You think Black Lives Matter are bad, that must mean you hate black people, you hate Stone wall, a pro-LGBT charity, then that must mean you hate gay and trans people.The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Feature creep sets in. The original goal of an organisation might've been to combat discrimination against a minority, yet once that has been achieved, even to the point of said group getting legal protection, they need to remain relevant as they have bills to pay, so they push harder. Now rather than simply fighting against discrimination, they push for equal outcome. It's a slippery slope.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 10:48:35 am
content: Quote

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 10:54:27 am
content: Quote from: paulca on August 18, 2022, 09:41:41 amAnyone with an academic background can easily find out for themselves what this Jordan Peterson person has been doing for the last two or three decades in the field of psychology.The key reason he is vilified by certain people, is that in 2007, Peterson was one of the authors of a highly respected and widely cited article,Between facets and domains: 10 aspects of the Big Five, which showed that based on purely numerical analysis of 481 personality assessments, theBig Five personality traitshave internal structure (that can be an useful tool in using these traits for clinical purposes), but more importantly, that theymay have a biological basis.In other words, that "personality" and "gender-associated personality facets" may not be just a purely social construct, and instead may have a significant biological basis. This is why he is the enemy of those who believe everything is just a social construct.(The Big Five is in psychology a very important tool in psychological assessment. Sure, being squishy human stuff, it has its flaws and valid counterarguments against, definitely, but it is the best tool in its class that we currently have. As an analytical/scientific/rational type, I personally had to delve into this stuff when repeated burnout and recurrent depression took me down. There is a lot of fluff in psychology, but a surprising amount of robust statistics-based stuff too.)While the number of citations is not really something anyone should use as a metric, the articles that do refer to this does help understand the context and value of said work. Seepibmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov for the list of articles that cite that one. Take a glance for yourself. After all, this is not just someones opinion, this is peer-reviewed work; and we still haven't found anything better for furthering our understanding than that.I do not "follow" him (as in watch his videos on Youtube – except when there is a discussion among people that have differing views), but I have read and listened enough to know he is not "alt-right": what he is suggesting, is just advice based on human psychology (and his clinical psychology experience in practical psychotherapy) to those who need help with life management and personal growth. Telling young men and women to clean up their own act before they try and go out to change the world is not "alt-right", it is just practical, functional advice based on human psychology. Telling them that being responsible for oneself and others carrying the heaviest social burden you can seems to be one of the most fulfilling ways to live, is not "radical" – or anything anyone should object to, because statistically it does work. Not for everyone, but for so many it is worth giving as advice. I did really like it when I saw him telling how therapy is not about "fixing" people, but to make them stronger, mentally strong enough to overcome their problems, because that's how I see it too. He himself is a flawed person, and freely admits it too. If he didn't, I wouldreallydislike him. Even his biblical series and similar talks are about how one can treat them as the distilled understanding/realizations across tens if not hundreds of generations, in the form of archetypes.All very straighforward, and in a normal society,uncontroversialstuff: it draws young people, especially young men, back from the edges and fringes from society, instead of pushing them further out. Apparently, a lot of peoplereallydon't like that. I wonder why?Quote from: emece67 on August 18, 2022, 10:48:35 amThis affects our workplace and livelihood. Thing-oriented people (like engineers and scientists, as opposed to more human/social-oriented people) have the greatest difficulties dealing with this stuff. If we cannot discuss this here, among other engineers, scientists and hobbyists with similar mindsets, we cannot discuss this anywhere anymore.I know I definitely cannot discuss any of this in public. Even in an University cafeteria, you risk getting dunked by water or other beverage by a politically and socially conscious activist students, just because they overheard you mention a name in a tone they didn't like.There used to be a time when universities were the bastions of new thought, thought experiments, and working over even unpleasant concepts, but no more.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 10:55:00 am
content: Worth mentioning the UTS engineering thing as it's very on-topic.https://web.archive.org/web/20200308074440/https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/excruciatingly-generous-uts-atar-discount-for-women-so-patronising-20190831-p52mpr.html

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 11:18:59 am
content: If you think that we can just walk away from the issue, and let it blow over, than you are in for a surprise.There is something called ESG credit score:https://esg.moodys.io/esg-creditIt's a scoring system, where the S social and G Governance score is given based on your company's willingness to subscribe to these radical left ideas. I gave you a Moodys link, where they clearly state that they are incorporating this score into your company's credit rating. Black Rock and other huge institutions follow this.What does this mean? If your company is not compliant, doesn't want equity over equality, doesn't want to implement CRT, or deals with other companies with low ESG score, you will not get funded. You will not get the necessary credits to expand, to grow, or to avoid a bankruptcy. As time goes on, there will be less and less companies surviving on the long term, who are not radical leftist.Every single time, the radical left was left unchecked, millions of people died who disagreed, or were in the way.So we cannot be complacent and leave them to just bark on their own turf. They are coming to your independent companies, and your movies and your social media posts and then they just cancel you. In their book it is not enough to not have an opinion about this. Why do you think companies are organizing brainwashing sessions about social justice?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 11:37:33 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on August 18, 2022, 04:35:29 amCriticized by woke media. He is not associated with alt-right which is another lie. Also far-left really like killing a character of anyone they do not like by naming them alt-right.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 11:38:52 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 18, 2022, 10:54:27 amAs the Ucrania-Russia war does. This is politics, period.QuoteWe cannot discuss it here because forum rules forbid it. Amazingly moderators seem happy to also post on this thread.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 12:04:54 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 18, 2022, 07:34:13 amI literally cannot think of a better way to undermine the perceived ability of a group (any group) and instill an inferiority complex/feelings of imposter syndrome than to openly declare and implement policies that lower the qualifying standards (by rule or in effect) for members of that group.There has been, and continues to be, a substantial amount of inappropriate discrimination between and among groups of people. That should be eliminated, to be sure. Introducing inappropriate discrimination in an opposing direction is, at a minimum, inelegant, but I believe is just as fundamentally unsound on moral grounds as the previous/extant discrimination. Eliminating, not creating opposing, inappropriate discrimination should be the goal.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 12:08:05 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on August 18, 2022, 11:38:52 amBecause this thread and topic is ultimately about our workplaces, our institutions, our universities etc And as previous threads on the same topic have discussed, engineering names, documentation, coding, etc. It infiltrates everything.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 12:20:59 pm
content: Whilst some people might find this topic "political", it seems to be quite relevant...Electronics engineering seems to attract some diverse people, including those who are transgender, gender diverse or otherwise. For what reason and I don't know why, but there seems to be a higher proportion of people who have some kind of sexual or gender "quirk", have aspergers, ADHD, whatever.... compared to a lot of other industries.Now, I guess I'm biased, in that I say this as a gay man myself, but... this whole focus on gender, sexual identity, etc... etc... is a load of shit. The flavour of the month at the moment seems to be people who have a vagina. Tomorrow, it'll be something else, because "society" says so, but society is fucking stupid. This is not to say that there aren't capable women, of course there are, but I have personally seen male candidates (of indiscriminate sexual orientation) overlooked for positions, simply because of their biological gender.Who you are as a person should have absolutely zero bearing on whether you get a particular job or promotion. Whether you're male, female, gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans, aboriginal, Vietnamese, Afro-american or any other combination you can think of... none of that matters when it comes to being suited to a particular role or job.Quotas don't work. Period. So why enforce them?And before anyone starts... your personal views on religion have nothing to do with it either.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 12:28:24 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 12:08:05 pmI beg to differ. Please look back over the last two pages of posts -- I did not see a single one which discussed engineering implications. This is a plain old politics discussion, apparently mostly among middle-aged men. My vote is to lock this thread.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 12:36:54 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 12:08:05 pmAs I said before, the same happens with the Ucrania-Russia war, and also with Lehman brothers, the decisions made by governments against COVID, the decisions made (or not) by governments about climate change, US gun control, capitalism vs. socialism, rise of populism, and so on.Simply, this is politics, but a question of politics that is of interest for some moderators here.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 12:40:18 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 18, 2022, 12:28:24 pmQuote from: emece67 on August 18, 2022, 12:36:54 pmIf you don't like it, then please keep out of this thread. No one is forcing you to participate.Quote from: Halcyon on August 18, 2022, 12:20:59 pmI agree. Given the current trans craze, many people can no longer define the term woman. Do you know many people would consider you to be bigoted if you refuse to date a transman i.e. a biological female, who identifies as a man? It's absurd. And no, of course I know this doesn't apply to most trans people, just the rabid activists.Quote from: tszaboo on August 18, 2022, 11:18:59 amI've heard of that before. Again, it appears to be something started with good intentions. Historically companies have treated people and the environment badly, because it's often not profitable to act in an ethical manner and this was an attempt to rectify the situation. Unfortunately feature creep and extremism setting in are inevitable, due to human nature. It's not going to do any good. Companies will still treat their employees badly, just in a different way and they'll greenwash, in a bid to appear environmentally friendly.We live in a global market though. What do other companies operating in countries where this woke rubbish has yet to catch on go?There are still other sources of funding such as crowd and peer to peer, so there's still a way round it.If I were in charge of a company and had to tick this box, I'd be fully transparent with the employees I thought it was a load of bollocks. I'd choose an online diversity course and tell them all the answers, then have a big session afterwards taking the piss out of it all.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 12:49:00 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 18, 2022, 12:28:24 pmIt's been running through it.I am a 20 year + software engineer. I am telling you the industry is reaching an all time low because it's being overstretched with demand and the Universities are not producing enough graduates. We are picking from EVERYWHERE and ANYWHERE now. We hire globally. People don't need degrees, they don't even need a related qualification anymore, if they do a good interview and have "compatible values" we hire them.The trouble with this is, it puts the senior engineers under more and more pressure trying to fill in gaps, bring people up to speed, rework peoples work, etc. etc. etc.Those senior engineers, are predominantly male, because that is the legacy of the past 20, 30, 40 years for whatever reasons.If those engineers start to feel uncomfortable in the new regime of social ostracization of them as people, they will leave.This is already happening in other industries and professions. People are just saying "No. No More. I am out.".Experience is bleeding out of the industry, code complexity is sky rocketing, the younger graduates and juniors have roughly ZERO experience in the lower levels of platforms and systems and are absolutely helpless without the old timers and grey beards.That is why this is relevant. If people like myself consider a career change away from this toxic mess, the industry WILL fail. Software related blackouts will run rampant.Is THAT relevant enough?EDIT:I'm not the best engineer by far. However I feel increasingly isolated and alone in my roles because the more I look around as I get older the less possible "mentors" I see in my peer group. The more the business turn to me and that's rather worrying. That I am now one of the seniors and the mentor. I keep telling them to stop pushing me upwards, I don't want to go upwards, I want to become excellent where I am first. But they are running out of senior people, so people are almost being forced to fail upwards.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 12:51:21 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 18, 2022, 12:28:24 pmHow very decolonial of you. Have you already tweeted how you voted to silence ugly white old middle-aged men griping about politically-motivated irrational unfairness affecting their professions? You should. I'm sure you'll getbrownierainbow points from your fellow ideolobots there.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 12:58:00 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 18, 2022, 12:51:21 pmOh come on. I have no problem with middle-aged men, being one myself. (And on the upper end of the "middle aged" spectrum.) But I don't enjoy being inside an echo chamber full of us guys. I can develop my own biases and don't need a group to help me develop or reconfirm those.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 12:59:33 pm
content: There is a fair amount of diversity here. We have already had comments to that effect. I'd honestly love to here the opinion of women engineers, there are some on here.I hope we aren't excluding them? Are we?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 01:00:22 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on August 18, 2022, 12:36:54 pmIt also appears to be of interest to the owner of this forum who set the rules in the first place.It's not really a political discussion when a few liberals pat each others' backs and lament the demise of liberalism togetherIt takes some, excuse the pun, diversity to turn a thread into trainwreck.Lastly, put your tinfoil hat on: you are witnessing the power structure maintaining itself.Quote from: paulca on August 18, 2022, 12:49:00 pmSpeaking of Jordan Peterson, remember that those who looked back at the burning Sodom turned into stoneSoftware should have never been allowed that much importance in the first place. This Sci-Fi fad needs to die, the sooner the better.If you truly believe it, you will do what needs to be done. If you don't, people will see through your drama theater and ignore you. There is a long queue of volunteers to fill the space you'd leave.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 01:15:10 pm
content: Yesterday I read an article about how bad gender income inequality is.And there was a "surprising" conclusion that females without children have roughly the same income as their male colleagues.In my experience, there is no discrimination in IT, EE, and other engineering jobs.The school experience will differ slightly, but it is so because girls are uncommon in some schools, that there can easily be ratios like 50-100:1The only real difference I can see is mothers pushing their daughters to "girly stuff".This is a very open industry because it is created by diverse (mostly neurodiverse) creatures.I can clearly see it in myself, as an autistic weirdo with little interest in human contact. I naturally gravitate towards computers and electronics.Plenty of people there can openly present their quirks and even fetishes. Colleagues are open and "other" just thinks about us that we are that weird IT guys and Engineers.The same applies to most technical stuff. For example, female welders tend to be superior to their male colleagues.It makes sense, they do it because they are interested in it and like it, so it is their hobby. Whereas men do it because it is a "manly job".It will work the same in the opposite way for jobs that are naturally attractive for girls.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 01:29:17 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 09:36:25 amInteresting concept this Window. I can see this being manipulated worldwide in different ways. I think there is actually a crisis, where the window for two population has shifted so radically, that there is very little overlap, and common ground left, that we can agree on.The other similar concept that I saw mentioned was called "Luxury beliefs". The concept is that rich/powerful people have the tendency to have different ideas about common things, just to differentiate themselves from the "downtrotten common".I think that most people are sensible, and don't subscribe extremist ideas, and this is advocated by a small, but very loud and powerful group of people.How can we have a discussion, if A party say: "I think we should treat everyone equally" and the reply to this from B is: "You are a colonist nazi".

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 01:33:02 pm
content: Bonjour à tousHappily, I am retired and very far from the entire horrible topic...Still in my carrier as an EE, I have seen most Firms hiring Discrimination for decades against Seniors ( anyone over 50 ) ,discrimination against American engineers in favor of cheap offshore.What about illegal Discrimination nowadays against Asians, Europeans, by Government, schools, media?just my thoughts....From a optimist in the nuclear ageBon courage et bon journéeJon

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 01:39:49 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 18, 2022, 12:59:33 pmThat has been claimed publicly about this forum before by those with a woke agenda.And if you try and defend it the response is always some variation of "You are driving women away with your inherent misognistic undertone you fail to acknowledge" etcThe number of women here is just typical of other engineering forums for *insert reasons here*. Just like my channel gets the same male/female ratio as other more woke creators (I've been called too "blokey" before), and even female engineering creators. Funny that, what are the odds. Most people simply don't care about all this intersectional woke BS, it's just a small extremely loud mob, and it's trendy to virtue signal when they cry out about something, especially on Twitter where all the action happens.I've been running this forum for what, 13 years now? And I can't recall any woman who came on here and got harrassed or anything to that effect, and I certainly wouldn't allow it, I'll ban anyones arse in a second if they do. They are just another forum poster who is interested in electronics. I like to think the forum is actually a great equalliser in this regard. Put woman in your bio and no one really cares, you are behind a keyboard and your tech knowledge and personality does the talking.As for trans people, there are a huge number on this forum, I think I even did a survey once, and IIRC many said it's one of the best forums around.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 01:46:57 pm
content: Quote from: jonpaul on August 18, 2022, 01:33:02 pmI had a bunch of uni students (UTS ironically) visit my lab once as part of some assignment to talk to industry people, and there were questions on women and discrimination in engineering.I told them that you will be discriminated against based on whole bunch of things, and gender is waaaay down the list. I think I rattled off a list of a dozen things that weren't sex or race based.They seemed genuinely shocked to hear this, as I think it's been drummed into them that the industry is rife with sexual and racial discrimination. It's BS.I don't like the post videos, but it's an appropriate time to bring in Morgan Freeman for his view which I also hold. Just stop talking about it. But of course we have to because the whole subject has invaded every aspect of our industry, let alone society.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 01:48:29 pm
content: I will say this, we really struggle to find engineering candidates who are skilled.If someone from a diverse background came to us, and they were a qualified candidate, why would we turn them down? Their skin colour, sexuality, gender, transition-or-not -- it doesn't matter. The question is can they do the job? And that's all there is.Engineering and software fields are almost continuously hiring because of high demand and competitive nature of the market, to exclude say 10-20% of all candidates because of racism or sexism or some other -ism would only put the organisation at a competitive disadvantage.This is not to say it did not exist in the past: of course it did. But, I'd like to believe we've moved on in our society now.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 01:52:09 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 18, 2022, 12:20:59 pmYes, yes it is. It's infuriating especially since it's a fundamentally broken approach.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 01:55:41 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 18, 2022, 01:48:29 pmIME this is one of the great aspects of the engineering field. If it's engineers hiring engineers, then zero shits are given about anything other than competency to do the job. Enginneers are famously practical like thatI was interviewed by and hired for my first job by a female tech. Zero shits given about giving the job to another (rare) woman. She liked me and my attitude and hobby background, I'm hired, the end.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 02:53:51 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 18, 2022, 12:20:59 pmExactly! Quotas are basically trying to force a group of people into a specific role, no matter if they like it or not. It's the wrong way! Simply ignore anything not related to qualifications and social skills, and hire the best candidate. You can try to encourage women to become engineers, but you should't force them. Today's quotas, wokeism, diversity and so on seems to be the lack of common sense. 20 years ago I worked in multinational teams with people from all over the world, women, people of color, gays, transgender, and any religion you can think of. We got the job done, and this is what matters. However, there are some issues which need to be addressed, e.g. equal pay for men and women, a topic top managements like to ignore while riding the diversity train.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:15:41 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 18, 2022, 12:58:00 pmWhy, then, do you insist on voting to lock this thread, i.e. silence everybody, when you could simply not read this thread?Wouldn't it be more rational for you to do something else, instead ofdemandingvoting to stop others talking?You should take particular note thatIam not demanding the closing of the identitarian leftie echo chambers like Twatter. I just ridicule them.Iwanteveryone, even those whose opinions I completely disagree with, to be able to express themselves and their ideas freely. Occasionally, when I'm up to it, I go there and listen for a while, because even if I disagree, I do want to know what they want to say.Why is it that you have such a big problem with "middle-aged men" expressing themselves, even if you consider yourself one? Self-hatred?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:22:50 pm
content: Quote from: KaneTW on August 18, 2022, 01:52:09 pmYes, I follow Big Clive and Fran on YouTube, not because they're gay and trans, but for the content, which centres around electronics, rather than homosexuality/transgenderism.Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 01:55:41 pmIt is true though that everyone is biased and it does play a role, but it would increase the likelihood of employing women. I'm pretty sure a straight man is more likely to employ a young woman, than man, because he finds her attractive. Heck, this could have even been a factor in you getting the job. If she found you attractive, it's more likely she would have given you the job. Of course I'm not saying, that's purely why you were offered it, but it's impossible not to dismiss it as being a factor. If you were a pretty woman, it might've even meant you were less likely to be hired by a female boss.Obviously I'm not an advocate for unconscious bias training, which is not proven to work. Managers might as well send their engineers on dowsing/divining courses to fault find circuits by holding metal rods over the PCB, or a crystal pendulum over the schematic. Oh, I forgot, some people here believe dowsing works, so such an initiative might get some support: palm:

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:33:24 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 18, 2022, 08:45:46 amFor most of my life I considered myself to be somewhere in the middle of the left, I don't think my position has changed very much over time, but the left has moved SO FAR to the left that now I'm probably somewhere slightly to the right of center. The whole identity politics thing simply doesn't make any sense to me, it has the appearance of absolute insanity. I was taught growing up that race is irrelevant and yet today much of the far left is absolutelyobsessedwith race and other immutable traits and they make a great many assumptions. I just don't even get it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:38:50 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 18, 2022, 12:59:33 pmI have never met a male engineer that had any desire to exclude women. Most of us enjoy being around women and would love to have more of them in the field, but very few women seem to have any real interest in engineering. When I was a kid I was teased mercilessly by girls for being interested in computers and other nerdy stuff, right up through high school it was an incredibly effective way to repel women. Even to this day I know only a small handful of women who have a genuine interest in STEM and of those I can't think of a single one of them that is interested enough to do it as not only a career but a hobby also as I and many of my male colleagues do. I think it would be great if this wasn't the case, but I really resent being blamed for it or accused of excluding them. Women have a HUGE advantage since every tech company is falling over themselves to hire more of them and yet here we are.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:44:15 pm
content: It's facism. If you don't tow the party line, if you don't sing with their narrative you are obviously a right wing bigot who should be silenced quickly.And these attacks are always in the one direction from extreme left to supposed right.I might not agree with everything he says, but he definitely makes more sense than some of the far-left radicals.Matt Walsh is another person on the right who talks a lot of sense.It feels like someone connected a very, very left voltage source to that scale and while I thought I was slightly left of centre, I now find myself out on the right apparently.People (like me) who considered themselves left (even far left in many regards) now find themsleves in the "centre", because the Overton Window has well and truly shifted to the left. But to the new extreme left you are now marked as a right wing nutjob, alt-right, or something to that effect. That's why the new left are eating themselves,The left however have not found that limit yet and they are hell bent on pushing and pushing and pushing.I think much of the shift to the left in the west, comes from the fear of the rightThis is also why many who disagree with left wing organisations are labeled as badAs time goes on, there will be less and less companies surviving on the long term, who are not radical leftist.Every single time, the radical left was left unchecked, millions of people died who disagreed, or were in the way.Also far-left really like killing a character of anyone they do not like by naming them alt-right.identitarian leftie echo chambers like Twatterbut the left has moved SO FAR to the left that now I'm probably somewhere slightly to the right of centerCurious EE thread, absolutely on-topic and devoid of political opinions.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on August 18, 2022, 11:38:52 amYou may notice the rules are somewhat flexible here and not nearly as absolute as in many forums. As long as things stay civil and somewhat relevant to the field of engineering they will generally let things slide. For most of us working corporate jobs, DEI is very relevant.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:47:56 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 18, 2022, 03:38:50 pmThis does depend somewhat on the branch of science or engineering being looked at. I find there is a very short-sighted tendency to see "Tech" as anything to do with computers, rather than STEM in general.If you look at the complete picture, including the biological sciences, mathematics, and all branches of engineering, you will find a much greater representation of women. Even excluding biological sciences, if you look at mechanical, civil or chemical engineering you will find plenty of women there.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:48:22 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 18, 2022, 03:45:13 pmI mostly see people attacking lefties. Not very civil, I think, and definitely not relevant (see my post above:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/diversity-equity-and-inclusion/msg4365721/#msg4365721).

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:51:35 pm
content: I mostly see attacks against over-reaching, extreme, or impractical points of view (sometimes to the point of being confusing whether they're attacking an actual position or inventing and attacking a strawman).Perhaps those points of view have something else in common as well.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:57:06 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 18, 2022, 12:58:00 pmThen go somewhere else. You are as welcome here as anyone, but if you don't like the thread then don't participate in it. There are loads of threads on this forum that I have no interest in or got bored with. I see no point in complaining that a thread should be locked, when I'm not longer interested in participating I exit, it's simple.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:20:25 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on August 18, 2022, 03:44:15 pmAre you trying to cancel this thread, because it might be different than what you think?You know, that this attempt is just proving our point even further?It was stated multiple times that this forum is not a democracy, or a free speech platform, whatever Dave and mods find acceptable goes.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:33:40 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on August 18, 2022, 03:44:15 pmKnowing that someone else has different opinions or values than you do must be physically painful to you, seeing how much effort you are putting into silencing them.I remind you, I'm happy to listen to what everyone has to say, as long as they use their own words and not someone elses.It is you, T3sl4co1l, and emece67 that are demanding this thread be locked, because you do not want dissenting opinions or views to exist, and especially not written out anywhere on the internet. Instead of ignoring the thread, you're spending an awful lot of effort to try and lock/cancel it. Why?Do you not see the irony here either? That it is exactly the widespread behaviour you exhibit right now, that we are complaining about?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:59:56 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 18, 2022, 03:15:41 pmI made the suggestion once, and made it clear it is my personal vote. I neither insisted on nor demanded anything.I have always perceived the moderation style to be a strength of this forum: Allowing all kinds of digressions, strong opinions, joking and teasing; but drawing a clear line at politics and religion. I found that policy to be valuable and important. It avoids discussions where fundamental differences of opinion lead to tensions between forum members which end up reaching beyond the specific thread.The way you lash out at me nicely illustrates that point. Tempers run hot quickly in these topics. (Re-read my two prior posts, re-read your replies, and look in the mirror please.) And whether I want it or not, having seen your responses and style here will taint my perception of you in other threads.QuoteThank you, I'm fine. It's the discussion in this thread which I find cringeworthy. Suits the regular's table in a pub, but not this forum.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 05:11:23 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on August 18, 2022, 03:48:22 pmThat's because so many people here have been cancelled by those on the left.If you have left wing views, that's fine, but why not air them here, rather than moaning about this thread not being locked? If you don't like this thread, then don't read and post in it.I know there are people here who have different political views to mine, which is fine by me and I'd have no problem working with them. The problem I have is nowadays there seems to be a large number of people who are intolerant of those with different views and they generally tend to be more on the left. I know that doesn't apply to all left wingers.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 05:15:55 pm
content: QuoteYes. I'm a pretty liberal person, but ultimately the one thing I'm intolerant of is intolerance of other opinions. It's a bit ironic, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 05:32:09 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 18, 2022, 04:59:56 pmOf course it does, because style and appearance is what defines your perception, not content.To be honest, seeing how intolerant you are towards different opinions and viewpoints, I could not care any less of your perception of me.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 05:32:41 pm
content: One "funny" thing is, after having spent decades trying to (or pretending to...) "glorify" differences (which, as is, is a rather good idea, as long as it's the real idea and does not mean to serve a less pretty ideology behind nice phrases), the same kind of people now have almost completely reversed it. Differences are bad, all people should be the same, except just for surface things. Superficial differences are tolerated, as long as they are more "folklore" than deep differences, and are even encouraged, but only if they can be classified in "communities". If you're different but do not belong in any identified community that they have decided is "legit", you're screwed. Or if your difference is deeper than just your apperance, then you don't fit.I think that's sort of called marxism 2.0, or something.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 05:41:33 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 18, 2022, 05:32:09 pmOnly one of us is constantly resorting to personal attacks in this exchange. If that all the "content" you got, so be it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 05:59:01 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 18, 2022, 04:59:56 pmReligion has very little relevance to engineering, I have never worked in a company where it was talked about openly or where the company itself took a particular stand. That is still one area where most people seem to be pretty tolerant of others with differing views, sure there are exceptions but at least in my own experience it isn't something that has come up often.Politics on the other hand are relevant, they have infiltrated nearly every facet of life these days so it's hard to talk about much of anything without some form of politics creeping in. Many companies now are very openly taking a side and there are groups actively hunting down those with dissenting views and trying to silence them and this is what I find disturbing. I would be more than happy to check politics at the door and not even discuss it at work, but unfortunately for not wanting to talk about politics I get accused of being "privileged". Not expressing an opinion or not taking a side is often not an option anymore. I have had to sit through numerous useless DEI training sessions where I'm told that I'm inherently racist and biased and at times made to feel deeply uncomfortable and excluded in the name of "inclusivity" and I'm not even what would typically be called conservative much less right wing. Like most companies we have a whole DEI department, an entire department of people whose job is inherently political. We are pressured to put our "preferred pronouns" in our email signatures, a concept I find completely absurd and insane. I have seen colleagues openly attacked and berated in online communication tools for even joking about supporting a politician or view that is not far left. The company I work for, like many others has openly racist and sexist hiring policies and even questioning this is risky to one's career. I would love if politics were irrelevant but I have been dragged into it to the point that discussing politics in some way is virtually inescapable.Personally I view this forum as very much the table of regulars at the local pub and that's one of the things I like about it.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 05:59:16 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 12:08:05 pmI understand that this is a thread about currently employed engineers, however, I am retired, retired in 2020 (didn't really want to at 66, but... reasons that I will skip). The company that I worked for was a very large aerospace company and the "woke" had already started oozing in everywhere. This was a group 80 engineers, working on a very large project. Being a senior design engineer, I was considered a greybeard (I even had one. There were at least 20% female engineers and I got along fine with them, however, there were a few that would push the agenda further and further, while management cowtowed. Many of the young female engineers would come and respectfully ask related engineering questions and I respectfully guided as I would with a male engineer. However, some of the seemingly "woke" young female engineers would act as if I was "acting patriarchael" and "mansplaining" and would say so. This is the responsibility of senior engineers to guide younger engineers toward understanding.. I did not understand this attitude (still don't).At any rate, now that I am retired, I avoid interaction on social media (I have lots of time now...) because I don't want the headache. The fact that this is being allowed on this forum is NOT strictly political, but a place of open discussion and a place where a misconstrued meaning or a statement or word that is not allowed in open forums is not piled on by people who disagree with by name calling and shushing all over the place.As Eevblog (Dave) said in his post, (and I am loosely paraphrasing) this is a place of safety for engineers, who are known to be outspoken when it comes to reality and scientific truth. I applaud Eevblog for allowing a little bit of pressure relief from engineers.As far as women in the workforce, I have never been against it as long as merit is the prime mover. Engineering is a discipline and, often, people's lives are at stake from utilizing the product of engineers. The minute that there are quotas and other political factors that force hiring on immutable characteristics, such as gender or skin color, the industry as well as the entire world will suffer.Ok, now you can pile on to all of the things that I said that was not politically correct...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 06:04:34 pm
content: @tpowell1830: In my experience working with other people, it doesn't always work out right out of the box due to personal and cultural differences. A good conversation usually clears the air unless one of the parties is convinced the others are after him/her.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 06:07:02 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 18, 2022, 05:59:01 pmIndeed. That has become a real problem for employees who do not adhere to those new company policies.If you can't stand it, you really have no choice except resign.There's already been a trend for kinda "massive" resignation (the "Great Resignation :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Resignation), and those invading new policies are likely to trigger more resignations.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 06:12:05 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 18, 2022, 06:07:02 pmI am quite adept at the art of not giving a shit. I can smile, nod and go through the motions while quietly rolling my eyes at the time wasted in all the various mandatory training sessions and the bullshit the presenters spew forth. Studies have confirmed what I have long seen as obvious, these training sessions are not effective and if anything they breed resentment. The only people who take them seriously are the rabid activists that have already drank the kool-aid, everyone else knows they're a waste of time.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:05:43 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 18, 2022, 04:33:40 pmYou do not know what my opinion about gender politics is, so you do not know if we're dissenting or not about them. And I have listened before to many political opinions (from all cardinal directions) much more radical than the ones on this thread, so there is no problem for me digesting them again.What I do not like at all is that politics has been a topic that, on this forum, has not been allowed to last for much time, and threads have been closed and people have been banned for expressing their political opinions (what seems OK to me). But this time, where (according to you) there are only 2 people saying than this is not appropriate, and the other seem, more or less, to agree condemning some political positions, there's an agreement on that this thread is all OK. Sorry, I do not buy that.So there are, on this thread, opinions "not written out anywhere on the internet" sure?I am listening/reading opinions like these everyday, maybe you are not visiting the more appropriate sites (which is exactly my complaint, this is not the appropriate site). Sorry but to me smells as victimism.My "awful lot of effort" on this thread is less than yours, in number of messages and I bet that also in words. And I bet that it is also less than the efforts from the OP and the forum owner, for example. The other person (according to you) "demanding this thread to be locked" has posted a single message. So there are (6 + 1) messages against 88, and such 7 messages are an "awful lot of effort", c'mon…Maybe if Dave changes the forum rules from "religion, politics, gun and conspiracy theories. They are not welcome here." adding "except if such opinions agree with mine or with those of a selected group of members", I would not be belligerent at all.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:21:40 pm
content: I view diversity is an acceptable outcome, not an reasonable goal. When it becomes a goal, the situations it produces become absurd as can be seen in the world today. The people pushing for it as a goal are generally hypocritical to the extreme, spouting about discrimination, when all they do is treat people differently based on their race, gender and other arbitrary metrics.If a company goes down this path, preferring ticking a box to actual suitability for the position update your CV. Best outcome: they find out that it's not worth it and stop with the bollocks.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:32:02 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 18, 2022, 06:12:05 pmThat is good. Not everyone manages that. Have you read this?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Subtle_Art_of_Not_Giving_a_Fuck

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:35:05 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on August 18, 2022, 07:05:43 pmI don't see anybody directly attacking anyone else, things are remaining fairly civil. I'm not going to comment on your political views because I don't know and frankly I don't care, but I can see how some might make assumptions based on the way you are responding. Nobody is attacking you, however perhaps you feel attacked because you identify personally with some of the views that are being attacked? Nobody is forcing you to participate, if you find this thread not to be interesting then you are free to leave at any time, there are lots of other threads in the forum you might find more to your liking. If you want to stick around and share your thoughts then feel free, but don't try to dictate that everyone else must be silenced.You are overlooking the most important rule of all and that is that this is Dave's sandbox and he runs the show. He sets the rules and he and those he delegates moderation duties to can arbitrarily decide what to allow and what not to, this rule supersedes all other rules that are in place. If he wants to allow a thread on a normally forbidden topic or lock a thread on something that is not explicitly against the rules he is within his rights to do that, however I have found the moderation to be more fair and reasonable here than on any other forum I have been on. Personally I see this particular political thread as something that is quite relevant to the field of engineering, especially for those of us in corporate jobs. That is not the case for a lot of political topics but it is for this.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:36:56 pm
content: I realize now that my opinion about some other people on this thread has changed. In some cases dramatically and to worst.There is the obvious possibility that the opinion that some other members of the forum have about me to also have changed in the same sense.This is why I think that it is a big error to allow this kind of threads.For me it is over.Enjoy.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:50:58 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on August 18, 2022, 07:36:56 pmAnd that illustrates precisely what people are complaining about. You have come right out and said that you have drastically changed your opinion of some people after finding out that they have a different perspective than you on some topics and because you are offended by somebody saying something you disagree with you are advocating that they be silenced. Yes there is a possibility that some are so fragile that exposure to a differing view could drastically change their opinion of others, but most of us will carry on and continue to engage in friendly discussions on other topics with them. You have not presented a counter point at all, instead you are pushing to have the discussion shut down. That is a nearly perfect example of the issue we are discussing, a vocal minority of people when faced with something they disagree with choose instead of presenting points in favor of an alternate point of view, to attempt to simply shut down the opposing view. I don't know, but I suspect that there is some cognitive dissonance going on, they lack intellectual points to support their view and instead it is based on how they feel. I admit I have never really understood why some people take some idea so personally that they themselves feel attacked when somebody points out flaws with that idea. An extreme example of this behavior are the cases where people have been brutally attacked for rooting for the "wrong" sports team.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 08:39:34 pm
content: It's a defensive reaction. Not positing that this is the case here, but:* Disagreements often provoke the same physiological response as a physical attack* When your worldview is being challenged, you instinctively want to defend it. When you don't have arguments to defend it with, you lash out.For a lot of people, specific issues are a central tenet of their identity. Challenging it is like waving a red flag at a bull, but unfortunately we can't just gore people we don't like over the internet.I see this with gender identity, Ukraine/Russia, etc, etc. Any contentious highly emotional issue, basically.Echo chambers just make it worse (Twitter, State TV, ...)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 09:28:43 pm
content: Quote from: HuronKing on August 17, 2022, 05:00:03 pmAI only relies on the data presented to it. It's possible to build an algorithm which performs well at predicting something, yet also yields politically incorrect results. For example, you could interrogate a database of postal addresses to find out who's most likely to default on a loan, or make an insurance claim and you'll find they're most likely to be the more deprived areas, with more of a certain ethnic minority group. The algorithm will be branded as racist, but it's working properly and generating good results. The problem is with society not the algorithm and the same applies to AI. Unfortunately it's not possible to fix society so everyone is equal, without resorting to unfair or even authoritarian social engineering, so we're stuck to some extent.Quote from: KaneTW on August 18, 2022, 08:39:34 pmI agree. I think many of use have been there, myself included. I admit, it's difficult to look back on the situation or debate and come to the conclusion I was wrong. It's something I'm working on and getting better at doing. Part of the problem is, when someone disagrees, they feel compelled to take more time offering an explanation why they think the other person is wrong, than when they simply agree with them. This is of course human nature, since preaching to the converted requires less effort.It is frustrating how many people seem to have difficulty with disagreeing with someone one one thing, yet finding common ground on another. To demonstrate this is possible, I've picked out a post which I partially agree with.Quote from: sokoloff on August 17, 2022, 04:01:57 pmI strongly disagree with you here. I deem any policy which treats people differently, based on irrelevant characteristics, i.e. interviewing quotas for minorities, is a good idea. My dad had that problem when he worked at the council. HR commented on how he didn't select any CVs of ethnic minorities and wanted him to interview a group of minority candidates, who were clearly unsuitable. It wouldn't have been fair for them to have wasted their time travelling to the interview, especially given they were from further afield. What was even more silly is most of the information giving away their ethnicity had already been removed form their CVs by HR.Everyone has their biases and there's little evidence to suggest they can be changed, via training. I admit it's not a bad thing to make people aware of any biases they may have, but they can't be improved or eliminated.QuoteI agree everyone should have to meet the same criteria, when applying for a position. As you said in another post, lowering the bar is bad for those it's supposed to help.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 09:59:08 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 18, 2022, 09:28:43 pmI'm reminded of car insurance companies who used to be able to charge women less - the idea was that women, in general, have fewer accidents and the accidents they do have tend to be less serious. Men, in contrast, are more likely to be aggressive when driving, more likely to drink-drive, and more likely to drive when tired. And, they're quite likely to do any one of those when they have others in the car with them. So the average payout is higher.But, it's not legal any more to charge less to women (or more to men) on the basis on gender alone. They can charge more or less based on insurance history, so an average female driver will pay less than an average male driver. But for new drivers, or those with limited history, the price has to be the same.It's completely bonkers - why shouldn't you be able to charge on actual risk? Why do we pretend these things are equal when they quite clearly are not?

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 10:05:28 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 18, 2022, 09:59:08 pmThat actually sounds fair. Judge people neutrally until their personal actions and choices dictate one way or another.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 11:22:49 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 18, 2022, 07:50:58 pmIt seems that I have video for everything:

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 11:32:08 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 18, 2022, 05:11:23 pmHere's the thing.The only people who seem to want this thread shut down are those that basically support DEI, because they are being challenged here. So they compare it to talking about wars, covid, religion, etc as an excuse to have it shut down.And this is exactly the problem with cancel culture, they want all discussion shut down. No.This impacts this industry directly with employment, promotion, forced DEI courses, our EE universities, engineering terminology we supposedly are and aren't allowed to use, and the list goes on and on. It has infiltrated everything. And we have a history of discussing this kind of stuff on this forum. This is why I let it remain.If you don't like it, or get offended by stuff beign said, or think less of your fellow forum users because of something they said, then simply put the thread in your ignore list and you won't see it again.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 11:58:43 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 11:32:08 pmFor me, retiring the usage of “master and slave” falls into the category of “yeah, that’s probably a good thing to do [to avoid dredging up discomforts from over 150 years ago].”For the same reason, I wouldn’t let a conference room be named after Auschwitz, Hiroshima, or World Trade Center. These seem like common courtesies, even to my engineer brain. I realize that some see this as the start of a slippery slope (and I can’t explain exactly why that isn’t a concern for me.)

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 12:14:42 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 18, 2022, 11:58:43 pmWasn't there a book about this?I fundamentally disagree with the retirement of master/slave, and continue to use it in my projects where appropriate. Change for changes' sake is just wasted resources. Same as here in Germany with "Studenten" (plural of students) => "Studierende" ("those who study") because "Studenten" is supposedly too gendered. Millions spent on renaming everything in universities for a word that sounds worse and has no benefit.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:51:28 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 18, 2022, 09:59:08 pmAs far as I know they still can and do do that here in the USA, and speaking as a male I don't like paying more but I also accept this because insurance costs are based on statistics, and statistically males such as myself are more aggressive and do have more serious accidents. It's perfectly logical that they do this, I myself have never been in an accident where I wasn't sitting stopped when I was hit by somebody but I understand how statistics work and I don't take personal offense when somebody points out that members of my group are statistically more likely to be in a serious accident. The data doesn't lie, and doesn't care if it points to politically incorrect conclusions.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:58:23 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 18, 2022, 11:58:43 pmI strongly disagree here. Master and slave in the context of technology has *nothing* to do with slavery (which still exists actively in many parts of the world even today). It accurately describes the relationship of the devices in question, and these devices are inanimate, they have no feelings and no rights, they do not get offended, they are not self aware. Absolutely nobody who was alive 150 years ago is alive today so that is totally irrelevant. A slave device has NOTHING in common with a human slave and changing the word used to describe it does absolutely nothing. Personally I think people who are in favor of the euphemism treadmill have some deep guilt within themselves that causes them to be made uncomfortable by these words. The thing is, words are merely tools used to carry meaning, it's the meaning that matters, not the words. Changing words does nothing more than make certain people feel good about themselves and make them feel like they are doing something useful even though they are not.Stop focusing on the word, focus instead on the meaning, and realize that there is nothing morally objectionable about enslaving inanimate objects.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 02:02:25 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 18, 2022, 11:58:43 pmIt's bullshit.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 02:18:48 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 18, 2022, 08:12:51 amThis Matt Walsh..?https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1549713211188027394QuoteNot repeating the other thread here, but expanding on some related thoughts.Sure, they could be forgiven, if these were one-off cases. Everyone has days when their communication just doesn't land. That happens.Like, I don't know if the above is a one-off. But a glance at what's on top of the account looks pretty par-for-the-course among right-wingers.It's when they double and triple down on it, dig in deeper, and associate with other groups of negative impact -- and at an age well past obvious ability/intent to better themselves? Nah, it's intentional, willful, and evil. At best it's ignorance, but again given the age, there's no evidence it can be fixed; the next best then is stupidity. (And for those clever enough -- like Peterson or Shapiro -- I doubt it's stupidity.)And what we're really missing, then, is why.Evil almost never exists for its own sake.Almost always, it's money. If we saw who's giving these people money for speaking engagements, interviews, books... and we saw what else they're financing, and who's financing them, and how that fits into the overall picture -- *gestures vaguely at all the stupid and criminal shit happening at high ranks everywhere* -- a very different picture would be painted about them, and their position on, and role in, all these bad things happening. Of course, most of these flows are, very intently, kept quiet, whether by lobbied-for laws (e.g. PACs), or through private persons/groups (including laundering thereof, e.g.Political Donor Sentenced to 12 Years ...). Whether or not individual actors in these webs realize it -- or if you choose to accept this as motivation for disregarding those individuals -- they have a hand in the decline of democracy. Which is after all, the right's preferred modus operandi -- ignorance at all levels, plausible deniability, keep the money flowing, don't ask questions (or ""do your own research"").A better framing of your point might go something more like: "not everything that's touched by evil money, is evil in turn". I certainly agree with that: "evil" (and here I'm using "evil" in a broad, informal sense, as relates to the previous paragraphs) needs many goods and services that everyone else needs; indeed, those expenditures are arguably a moral good (if very mildly so), as they are direct costs, without specifically advancing any goals. It's the web of relationships, and finances, that does advance their goals, that is problematic.Which is also the fundamental reason corruption must be entrenched to survive -- it must also be inseparable. You can't just cut it out, without killing off much more of the economy. US defense spending, for example -- even by fairly right-wing standards, I think? -- is notoriously bloated. It's intentionally divvied up into as many contractors and districts as possible, to make it benefit the most local economies. Whether or not the incremental value of that budget is justified (which, when even the Pentagon itself saysit wastes that money-- most right-libertarians I think might agree that it isn't justified), let alone if you want to include any other related, secondary, knock-on/extenuating, or left-leaning costs (like the continued destabilization of the middle-east (and various other countries around the world); or the military's vast consumption of fossil fuels; or the abuse, destruction and death of civilians in affected areas, let alone combatants, let alone in their own ranks, e.g. see rates of female suicide, and probable rape/murder in the military) -- it's a terribly expensive converter of money into human misery, for a minor gain at home. Yet we allow it to continue, because it gives us token jobs making humvees and missiles, etc.Just to emphasize, I mean the budget being far in excess of what an efficient, responsible,auditablemilitary service would be, of essentially identical international impact. So, completely aside from any knock-on costs, like whether that impact is really something we want to have.We could get rid of that waste, but it would require airing out a tremendously deep and tangled web of corruption, and that just isn't going to happen at this time. (It must happen. We need to push for change. But it's not going to happen just sitting around, I mean.)And that's just one, more prominent example; the same repeats all over. Any project big enough to be of notional public good, is going to have enough graft attached to it to make it worthwhile for all the politicians, investors, contractors, etc. who have a stake in keeping things the way they are: they have a vested interest keeping things expensive for the average person. Keeping housing scarce. Keeping automobiles mandatory to get to work, the store, the doctor. Keeping work mandatory to survive.Even on the smallest level, you have your bills with all the hidden costs. Sure there's the service, oh but there's a wiring fee, and a service fee, and a utility tax, and a sales tax. Your bill is now twice what we sold you, how would you like to pay, thank you and have a nice day!We can't even put taxes on our grocery store labels, for god's sake.And it's the little things that we accept, that condition us to also accept the big ones.Anyway, in summary -- all these tangled webs of corruption, the major political pundits are very much active participants of that web, and we can hold them accountable as such.I can't expect you to be aware of how much history I have seen, with respect to a given person [who you may complain I'm being unfair with], nor of how I've seen traits, they're exhibiting, that very much justify disregarding them.Likewise, you shouldn't expect that I'm disregarding the majority of points [among some, or many, of which, you may still agree! so it looks very unfair indeed to you!], that someone makes, when I do not, in fact, blanket disregard them -- more that they are wrong far more often than they are right, and thereforeit is of negative value to meto sift through their points, critique and debunk their claims, let alone, say, categorize and summarize all of these in a neat format for anyone else to review.QuoteIt must sound utterly bizarre to you,but some believe there are other costs to be considered, besides the most direct and visible flows.First, let's be careful -- "best", I'm going to assume this means purely in technical terms? As opposed to an overall business decision, on hiring that individual (or plural, as the case may be -- one person might even be substituted with several)?- Do I need the absolute best person for the role? Will they demand a higher salary than the business can handle? -- or more to the point, will that maximize my profit?Since we are ultimately working within a capitalist system here, I must disregard, to some extent, the conditions of my workers: negotiating against them for least salary/benefits, force them to work unpaid overtime away from their personal time, or families, etc. If I don't, someone else will, they'll secure a profitability edge, gain more capital, and out-compete me. It's not my choice, it's the system we operate in. Stick a point in this, but take it for granted at the moment.Or, flip it around: I'm certainly among the technically-best for a lot of EE jobs. I've also priced myself out of many bids. That has many explanations of course; not least of which, maybe I'd just not explained myself well enough to convince them. But it's happened more than often enough to expect that many of those were simply declined by budget.And my not being tied to cheaper, more common tasks (which, presumably, I could do more of / faster than others -- granted, whether or not I can convince clients of such, and actually pull that off in practice, are other matters!), means I have time to commit to more advanced and lucrative tasks -- like, instead of those bids I missed, I won a niche induction heating project earlier this year -- which has been profitable for me, and the client says they were "lucky to find [someone with induction heating experience]". There you go.So, cost serves here as a sorting mechanism, for instance. A price is crude, and depends on many other variables still (not least of which, regional differences for example), but generally a "good enough" employee will be more practical for a given task.So, there's reason to choose less technically competent individual(s). Business doesn't need "the best", it needs "good enough". Mediocrity is the norm (as you have no doubt noticed!!).So that defeats the " best" point. But maybe that was a straw-man and this was redundant (which is fine, again, communication is hard).Second: how might I handle the described situation (hiring someone politically highly divergent)?There are many:- I could reject for the above reasons, certainly. That's explained, so, aside.- Perhaps they themselves decline after the in-person interview. Say I have a lot of visibly LGBTQ+ employees, and visible postings of colorful banners, and they "didn't feel comfortable" in such a space (not that most would say so out loud, but that might be their internal reason).- What if I'm a PoC, or woman, or trans, and I see them drive up in a truck with a confederate flag, or "lets go brandon" or "fuck your feelings" or "life begins at conception" sticker, or something else similarly problematic? Or they have problematic tattoos (e.g. swastika) [and don't immediately make light of having changed their ways, just not having had time/budget to cover or remove them*]?*Which, that's lit AF. Expensing that shit right away. Improve yourself, disregard hate, embrace love. Easiest non-strictly-business-related cost I'd approve.If they get hired, but later show various kinds of warning signs, what then?- I could choose to post banners such as above (if not already present). Is that a bad idea, does it constitute escalation, would it make things worse before they get better? (I, personally, probably wouldn't. I'm a coward, honestly. I don't like in-person confrontation. Sucks, but I'm honest enough with myself to know this. I also don't particularly feel a need to control employees -- but also don't have a business need to hire any -- so I don't have any besides myself right now. So, this is all hypothetical, and best-intent.)- I could make it clear that some fraction of our profits is donated to beneficial causes (ACLU, women's rights, LGBTQ+ rights, progressive PACs, etc.). Emphasizing how each employee's value-creation is distributed accordingly ("$X of profits you generated, were distributed to these helpful causes:"), so it doesn't just feel like a slush fund. (Perception is everything.) Mind, they can fight back in kind, if they like -- donating some of their income to counter causes -- but that also reduces their income, and presumably, my share of their value (profit) is larger than their discretionary budget -- another strong reason why capital must keep worker incomes down: to further their own goals (industry reps / lobbying, etc.).Indeed, this happens at some corps with donation-matching policies; it's still not much (it's at the employee's expense), but with the match, it's that little bit more effective, and anything to help dilute the influence of megacorps and etc.Anyway, if such an employee is okay with helping, well, they must not actually be all that concerned about it. Or they're rather ignorant about how their personal alignments ultimately, if ever so incrementally, affect the people around them. Which, see earlier point: mediocrity. I've met plenty of engineers/technicians who, I assume (or know, in a few cases), made more annual income than I typically do, but who aren't particularly good at their jobs. Again---price is only a crude indicator of quality. And then, consider that there are plenty of other things to be ignorant about, besides ones' direct profession. I've seen little evidence that cleverness in one area, automatically generalizes to cleverness in other areas.I mean FFS, there's plenty of things I've been ignorant about throughout my life, and if I think a bit, I can probably pull up a few more that I still am. But you'll understand, I'm not going to list examples here...Never underestimate a human's ability to compartmentalize thoughts, whether by natural process (or lack thereof, as the case may be), or willful action (i.e., paid to)!Anyway , maybe such a situation would resolve with positive change; maybe with construction of an HR file, and eventual dismissal for-cause. Hopefully it wouldn't escalate to harassment or other such traumatic events, but that is unfortunately the system we work in (reactionary).And like, there's plenty of examples of, say, Jan. 6 rioters getting identified, and fired. And also prosecuted. That's a very right-wing-relevant example, and a good enough cause for business reasons. (You'll notice the lack of rainbow flags at that particular event...)And, I personally, can also make conscious decisions about what employers I choose to work for, or suppliers I do business with. I could probably have doubled (or more?) my net worth if I went to work for Raytheon, for example. I got... so many recruiter messages about them (at least, hmm when was it, maybe 2018ish? they've mostly stopped nowadays, it seems). I have no doubt the pay would've been excellent, and the work interesting (in and of itself, mind; the office politics, probably shite, par for the course?). But then I'd have to know the designs I'm making are used to oppress or kill people I don't even know, let alone that have done anything against the country, or me personally. Fuck that.Tim

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 02:54:44 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2022, 02:02:25 amIt's also painfully, painfully US-centric, as is the entirety of the woke caste system and it's dogma.No offense to any US members.#NotAllUSA

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 05:44:09 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 18, 2022, 07:50:58 pmWell said, james_s.I'm utterly bewildered at how this kind of behaviour has become acceptable, and the "norm" nowadays. I just don't get it.Also, what is itexactlythat is so offensive in this thread? We all basically agree thatAbsolutely anyone can and could become an engineer or a scientist. Your gender, religion, political views, or stuff like that does not matter. All that matters is that you are interested in it, and are willing to learn. You do not become an engineer or scientists because you belong to groupX, you become one because you want to –– and you can.So, we're definitelyinclusive, just at the individual level: if you want to do engineering or science, and are willing to learn, youarewelcome among us, regardless of your other personal details. Once you start doing engineering/science, you become one of us, and those personal details are just your individual attributes that do not define you as an engineer/scientist: the work/research/hobby and how you interact with others, does.Many of us do not see you as aXengineer or scientist, but an engineer or scientist that happens to also beX.We value engineers and scientists with different views and experiences, because we all want to learn from each other. That's why many of us are here, especially in the beginner section: we get to ask and get help in all kinds of technical stuff from others who have lots of practical experience.So, we're already adiversebunch, again at the individual level. Basically no scientist or engineer expects other scientists or engineers to have the same social attributes as they do. Instead, if you do engineering or science, you are a fellow scientist or engineer like us,because those other attributes do not matter(at all to most of us). There are exceptions, of course, but it is those that such stuff matters to, that are considered the odd ones out (and often considered unsuitable for professional environments). To simplify,youare accepted as a member of the community, and if someone says otherwise because of some kind of social detail or personal attribute, it is them that arenotwelcome.The only thing that should cause incompatibilities between coworkers in a technical field is dissonant attitudes towards the work itself. Any kind of friction stemming from social details is unprofessional and unacceptable. Refusing to work with someone because they're male/female/gay/trans is unprofessional (and in my personal opinion grounds for dismissal, but opinions on this might vary, because of cultural differences and protections wrt. religion).We all seem to agree that finding the persons that are interested in engineering or science and have the interest and capability to learn, regardless of their background, is a good thing. We do not want to leave any potential engineer/scientist out; we want to work with them.Very few of us want to work in "sausage fests" where juvenile male humor is the rule. Those are the exception, the negative stereotype.Most of us enjoy actually working on the subject matter, and interacting with colleagues and other people like adults.Because many engineers and scientists are thing-oriented as opposed to people/social-oriented (again a detail that has been observed in other species, especially primates and monkeys, so not purely a social construct or effect of upbringing, but something that has at least a partly biological basis –– we cannot help but be like this), many of us fail to acknowledge social details. This is not coldness or rudeness or antisocial behaviour; it's just that many of us tend to focus on the things –– and work –– instead of the persons involved.Here are the opinions that seem to me to cause offense, which I honestly do not understand:There are statistical differences in the fraction of people interested in science and engineering, among various social groups, including between males and females. Statistics and even animal experiments show that this has at least some basis in biology, so we guess it is natural. However, there may be unwanted biases in exactly who is encouraged to seek science or engineering fields, and we want to make sure that does not happen, that everyone interested should be reached and social-based obstacles eradicated. However, at the admission and hiring phase, any kind of quotas are counterproductive, because they are fundamentally unfair, which causes their total effect to be negative instead of positive.Fairnessis a concept that has a biological basis, as it has been observed in many species, not just in humans. Because of this, any attempt at eradicating discrimination by "positive discrimination" will fail, because that positive discrimination itself is unfair at the individual level. Even in animal experiments, "positive discrimination" will fail to yield positive results. So, why would it work in humans? Why is it "offensive" to point this out?For the longest time,freedomandfairnesshave been associated with thefreedom of opportunityandequalityamong individual humans. In a very short time, just a decade or two, this has been suddenly twisted intoequity, equality ofoutcome, removing any effect of individual effort, and basing any rewards on the immutable or social characteristics of the person instead of their personal efforts and accomplishments.This is fundamentally unfair at the individual level.Furthermore, it has already been attempted in communist societies like the Soviet Union, and it lead to a horrific loss of productivity there. Why is this historical factual experience completely ignored, and not acknowledged by those who pushequity? Why do they think it will lead to different results this time?I myself often mention that I have done my best work in a small team with very diverse individuals, each with their own focus and domain of expertise, which overlapped slightly. I have never had issues with a coworker because of personal or social reasons; only when there was a serious conflict arising from the work itself. (However, I have found out a couple of times, afterwards, that a coworker had an issue withmebecause of a social detail: either because of my directness and refusal to let unfairness remain, or because I failed to acknowledge social details about that coworker.) I have happily worked for people from all sorts of backgrounds, and the biggest "issue" is that I've often missed social details I consider uninportant/ancillary, like whether my employers were a gay couple or just co-owners. (Because I like self-deprecating humor and openly acknowledge my faults, it has never been an actual issue. I'm very easy to read, socially speaking, in real life.)And for reasons outlined above, I definitely prefer a diverse workplace over a mono-one –– as long as I am not required to acknowledge any work-unrelated social details like the exact position of each colleague in the gender spectrum, because doing so is difficult for me: I have to concentrate and work it out, I just do not automatically observe those things.Many scientists and engineers are like this, to differing degrees, based on conversations that I have had. (Granted, I am assuming my limited sample is at least somewhat representative of the whole; so, if what I described above is in conflict with what other members here have observed, please do correct me.)So, what is it, exactly, in this that is so offensive and "alt-right"? It is all verifiable, non-antagonistic, and definitely welcoming any individual regardless of their personal attributes.I do not understand, and I am very tired of being constantly barraged by the factually incorrect but "politically correct" agenda demanding I change, and atone for my audacity to even think this way. Why? None of that barrage is rational, and none of it makes any sense to me.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 06:08:44 am
content: janky copy/paste of transcript.Quote

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 08:51:49 am
content: To be honest the component of this that make me want to speak was the irony, contradiction, miss-use of terms and hypocrisy.Every single DEI email in the past year has been about women only events, women only incentives. It's agenda for meetings have been Women in tech, Women in tech, Women in tech, Women in tech.How is that inclusive? How is that diverse? How is that Equal?It's hipocracy. I feel like, but won't out of fear, joining one of their meetings and asking straight out what each of those words actually means. Then read the dictionary definition to them and leave without having to make a point.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 08:57:58 am
content: Quote from: paulca on August 19, 2022, 08:51:49 amYoutuber Alex Stein gives them a dose of their own medicine.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 09:01:17 am
content: Quote from: John B on August 19, 2022, 02:54:44 amOh, the engineers should've just said its a kink/fetish thing, and not history. Like penetration distance or male and female connectors.Once your realize that you don't care at all about what these woke people think about you (and why would you), you can just one-up them anytime with some ridiculous claim, that they are not allowed to question or debate.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 10:16:28 am
content: On a more personal note. Related mind, I think. I suffer, like a lot of us, from depression. I was watching one of JPs pre-fame lectures on depression.Something rung out. He said, when a negative thing happens to you, something upsets you, something doesn't go to plan, someone is rude to you, something makes you feel "pain", you have to ACTIVELY limit it's scope. A depressed mind will allow that hole of discontent to expand, cracks and fishers will shoot off it, it will pick at the hole, make it worse. Suddenly an isolated event in your life expands from "I did a bad interview" or "I accidentally deployed a dev config to prod" jumps to, "I'm a fraud", "I shouldn't be here.", "Who am I kidding?", "They'll be on to me. I'm useless.", "I should leave my job, but then what do I do? Jump off a bridge?". Instead a healthy mind will surround the hole and try and limit it's scope, try and force it closed, not deny it, but stop it growing out of proportion.Damn. That is far, far too close to home for me. Before I even went to seek help for it, I got warnings in work for exactly that. For picking up a problem with a solution and going at it like it was the end of the world. Partly I found this created a feedback loop, along the lines of "cry wolf", so my negative warnings began to be unheard. I esculated by using more extreme examples of how this issue or problem could explode and cause the whole project to fail.It spiralled and spiralled with me feeling like I was being ignored (I was) and repeatedly seeing things that I had warned about manifest and then having to fix them after the fact when it was much harder. I ended up completely disillusioned, disconnected and demoralised. It only took a couple of actual bad things to happen in my life, a death, a potential issue with my child and the start of the-virus to nearly send me over the edge. I remember a feeling I've had in my life before, a feeling of another part of me deep within reaching out and holding me, like when I get so, so low there is a part deep within me, normally silent, which stands up and takes me by the shoulders and escorts me off to deal with myself calmly.I got anti-depressants. They work. Most of the social anxiety I didn't even realise I had went away. Most of the "spiralling" out do control to the negative stopped. The only downside is the side effects on higher doses are just too much for me, so I'm on about half of what I should be and find I'm having good days and bad days.Back to how this relates to the point here.For me the Equity and force hiring is coming at me from the USA customer side. They are not really allowed to override my UK employment legal framework. So the worst of this stuff does NOT actually apply to me, yet. It may never get that bad here (RAF's pause of male/white recruiting asides). My own employer still talk of Equality and while they do go on and on and on about Women in Tech, the awards where all female, I have not attended one of their meetings to see how bad their rhetoric is, or isn't.I'll limiting scope. It's not a big deal yet for me. It may never be. It might never get as bad as it could get. I only have 19 years left in me anyway before I retire.The last thing I want to do is start sticking my head above a parapet fighting in a war that isn't mine (yet). Although maybe that's cowardly.

author: Neper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 10:55:31 am
content: Quote from: emece67 on August 18, 2022, 07:36:56 pmIf anything, they're divisive and they poison the atmosphere.Why can't the people starting those discussions take them to the usual political ratholes instead of spoiling the fun on here?

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 11:18:03 am
content: Quote from: Neper on August 19, 2022, 10:55:31 amFix it for you.EDIT: So far, with very few exceptions, the discussion has been civil. It hasn't gone partisan and slagging matches and name calling have not, yet, started.People are expressing opinions, not all of them the same. There is a sort of concesous that the more extreme end of DEI and modern neo-identity-politics is problematic on many fronts. But it's certainly not an echo chamber. I have found a few points on here uncomfortable, but I've listened, considered and they have made me wonder, think and probe vunerabilities in my own values. That is a good thing!If people were at each others throats over this, it would be different, but it seems we have divided into "Want to discuss openly, even opposing views" and "STOP, SHUT UP!"I don't think the later should ever be allowed to win. "I'm not listening", absolutely fine. "I disagree", absolutely fine. "SHUT UP!", not fine.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 11:32:44 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on August 19, 2022, 02:18:48 amWow there's a lot there to go through.Why do you think Matt Walsh is evil because he disagrees with the idea of the hole in the ozone layer being due to human actions? I would say he's misguided and perhaps ignorant on that regard, but wouldn't say he's evil. I don't think climate change is a conspiracy theory, but the last two years has taught me to question things more and be more accepting of people who have unpopular points of view, so wouldn't label someone as a quack who thinks that. We mustn't forget many people have been demonized in the past because they have an unpopular opinion, yet have been proven right: Galileo being a classic example.Evil can be found on both ends of the political spectrum, on the far left, just as much as the hard right.I agree corruption is bad, but it's just as much of a problem on the left as the right. Neither side is squeaky clean. I could post examples of both, but won't because it'll just derail the thread.I consider critical race theory and gender ideology to be evil, yet of course I don't have any problem with ethnic minorities and trans people. I don't tie nasty ideologies with people, unless they support them and even then, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. Quite often feeling marginalized from society can drive one to extremism and the same applies to the hard right. I'm also aware people can be manipulated and some may believe they're being virtuous for supporting a cause or organisation, yet are unaware of the extremist elements.Are you aware of the conflict between trans rights and women's rights? Can you even define what a woman is, without offending some people? How does one go about resolving this? Is it possible?Why not try to understand why someone votes for a politician you disagree with, before dismissing them as bad? It's possible they don't agree with everything, they just consider them to be the least bad option. As I said before, maybe they've felt discriminated against or marginalized?Have you considered the party you vote for might be the greater evil? What if you're wrong? How is suppression of right wing views good for democracy? If we're not allowed to hear all views, both good and bad, then I don't see how democracy can function.Regarding the January riots. It's plausible agent provocateurs were put there by the Democrats. I'm not saying this is definitely true, but wouldn't rule anything out given the corruption which is known to happen on both sites. And don't you think it's odd the rioters didn't have guns? If the rioters really wanted an insurrection then one would've thought they would have been armed. It seemed like a protest which turned violent, which I obviously don't condone, but I could say the same about riots in the name of left wing causes, some of which have resulted in greater loss of life and property, yet not received the same level of condemnation by the mainstream media.Just a few things you might not be aware of.Both the Democrat and Republican parties have discriminated against black people in the past. Plenty of non-straight/white people are conservative. It's true minorities are more likely to be left leaning, but not all of them vote the same. Some black people still believe the Democrats are more racist than the Republicans, because they: disagree with critical race theory, get called all sorts of racial slurs i.e. Uncle Tom, when they express right wing views and Biden saying "If you don't vote for me, you ain't black." didn't help. Yes, I know Trump has also said some racist things "Laziness is a trait in blacks.". Neither side is perfect. Pick your poison.The terms people of colour and African-American are deemed to be offensive by many black people, especially conservatives, who consider themselves to be American first and foremost, they just happen to have a darker skin tone. It's true, everything is offensive to some people. It's impossible to avoid it. You can't win.Many gay people resent the term LGBT. They have fallen out with trans activists who have accused them of transphobia for refusing to consider trans people as potential partners. Lesbians have taken the brunt of this. They don't want sex with people with penises and are fed up with being told they're bigoted. In the UK, a group of people left Stonewall (an LGBT charity) to form LGB Alliance because they felt threatened by gender ideology.Transgenderism is a complex topic and gender ideology is political, rather than scientific. It's misguided to lump them all into one group. A middle aged male with autogynephilia i.e. gets sexually aroused at seeing themself as female, is psychologically very different to a teenage female who wants to appear masculine, due to a history of unwanted sexual attention and abuse from males.Not all non-straight people agree with pride. Many believe it reinforces stereotypes and some events are overtly sexual, therefore inappropriate for children and shouldn't occur in public view.Quite often woke organisations who display pride flags and push diversity, only do so in countries where this is accepted. They don't have pride insignia on their Arabic websites and branches. It's just virtue signalling. This represents the lowest, of the low.Personally speaking. I would run a mile if I went to an organisation for a job and discovered it was plastered in rainbows and BLM insignia, but would do the same if they displayed English Defense League posters. The problem is nowadays it only works one way. Left wing posters and memes are tolerated, yet the same is not applied to the right. I do feel uncomfortable dealing with someone who puts pronouns in their email signature because I feel as though they're more likely to take offense to something I say, when none was intended and report me to HR. Keep this kind of crap out of work.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 11:54:03 am
content: Quote from: Neper on August 19, 2022, 10:55:31 amNobody is forcing you to read threads like these.Even though this is an engineering forum, these issues have an influence on many engineers daily lives, and I encourage this kind of discussions. Life is more than just engineering.My point of view on positive discrimination in this respect is that it should not be taken so far that a lesser candidate gets a job just because it belongs to a minority. Only when there are equally experienced or educated candidates for a single job it should be in favor of the candidate from a minority group. For the rest the procedure should be blind, just like "lady justice". And there lies a whole other can of worms to be opened, "lady justice"

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 11:56:24 am
content: End of story.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 12:20:05 pm
content: Quote from: John B on August 19, 2022, 02:54:44 amIt is not only US centric. In the Netherlands there is also an active 'we stem from slaves' movement including monuments and all. Even though the victims are dead for over a century already and slavery was never legal in the Netherlands. And oddly enough never a word about people who where slaves more recently. My own grandfather was one for a couple of years in one of hitler's munition factories. Oh, no, the political correct term for him is 'forced labourer'...Recently I watched a Dutch documentary about the 'woke movement'. It looks like these people are angry just to be angry. Everything is wrong.Bottom line: I think some people are just looking to point fingers in order to mask their own shortcomings / lack of spirit to make something from their lives. The woke movement is a whole ecosystem around it driven by people that make money from telling people they are being discriminated one way or another.For sure there is discrimination but if you start of by telling people they will never amount to anything because of their gender, skin color, etc, people will start by discriminating themselves and lose any incentive to go after a good career.Recently I watched a TV show. At some point this rethorical question came along 'Have you ever seen a black software engineer?'. That made me wonder: have I? The answer is no. I just can't think of a reason why not though. I have been around many companies and also saw quite a few CVs and applicants so that is not the reason.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 12:46:27 pm
content: Quote from: Neper on August 19, 2022, 10:55:31 amWhat political ratholes? You mean Twitter? The problem is it's subject to heavy censorship which only works in one direction. I believe the reason why Dave has allowed this thread to remain open is because this place isn't censored and people are free to vent.I find it odd how no one here has presented a decent argument in favour of diversity equity and inclusion training. Those who appear to support it have just said they want the thread closed.I'm actually in favour of DEI training, but not in the way pushed. It should just be about making staff aware of the law, common courtesy and to try to keep politics and religion out of the workplace, whether it be pride flags or right wing memes.I'll attempt to put forward the rational for interactionist training at work. The idea behind intersectionality is society is society is skewed to favour one group, over others who are oppressed. Every person has characteristics which form part of their identity and will determine where they lie on the intersectionality diagram. A deaf, black trans woman will be oppressed not only because because she's black, but a trans woman with a diability. A gay white man will also be oppressed for being gay, but not so much as he's white. Transwomen are more oppressed than ciswomen*.Straight, white men are at the top of society, because they hold most positions of power. They have a lot invested to maintain the status quo, which is why many people here who fall into this category will be told the should remain silent, as by questioning the interesctionist ideology they're trying to maintain their position of power, privilege and dominance in society.TERFs (Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists) need to step aside and support trans rights. Trans people have a disproportionately high suicide rate so it's only right they should be allowed to be treated as the gender they identify with, to be their true selves. This means they need to be allowed to enter spaces and compete in sports which match their identity.We all need to be aware of our unconscious biases which discriminate against he most marginalised and the more oppressed someone is, the more we need to cut them some slack and help them along in society. We must engineer society to address the under-representation of people who are oppressed in power.*I hate the term cis which was coined by a peadophile. I find it offensive and I only used it here because I'm playing devil's advocate.EDIT:Just to be clear. I was playing devil's advocate. I've noticed no one had put forward an argument for DEI training, so thought I'd put one forward.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 12:56:54 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 19, 2022, 12:20:05 pmMost European countries have practiced slavery. Most recently it was the Soviet regime, before that the Nazis and before that the much or the rest of Western Europe in their empires in Africa and the Americas.It's true lots of the woke stuff is US-centric. The UK is painted in a similar manner as the US, even though we never had Jim Crow laws and many black people came here to escape oppression in the US. Britain also did a lot to try to end slavery in the empire. One of the problems was the natives wanted to keep slavery going because it was profitable for them and they resented outside interference of their customs.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:12:02 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 19, 2022, 12:56:54 pmFixed it for you. The discussion is really mostly West-centric, concentrating on a few select countries, while glossing over the world wide slavery and its long history and tradition, which is alive and well to this day in various forms. Basically, if you look at human history, it can be summed up as people doing shitty things to other people for shitty reasons with the occasional bright exception - and this can be applied onto damn nearly any region and race. But yeah, let's go with the narrative which is "white people bad".

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:21:41 pm
content: Quote from: daqq on August 19, 2022, 01:12:02 pmYes daqq, I quite agree with you, I'm also quite upset about this broad strokes painting, and the "we are all guilty" mentality.In large part of East and Central Europe Slavery for all practical purposes ended in the 13th century, even if it wasn't specifically outlawed for much later. Even before that it was PoWs from neighboring countries, and had nothing to do with ethnicity. In fact lot of those countries were the subject of slavery by the Ottoman empire, then the Germans, then the Soviets.If you want to feel the collective guilty about your skin color or whatever your country did quite recently, fine, but don't generalize it to everyone, and leave us out of it.(if it matters, I'm not Dutch)

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:41:29 pm
content: Zero999, I would agree with you besides one point and that is transwomen (i.e. biologically men, reassigned after birth) competing in women's sport is unfair.There are examples of teenage male teams trouncing professional female teams - the competitive edge that high testosterone and higher bone density and different skeletal and muscular build gives you over a woman is like trying to compete with Tiger Woods as an amateur teeist.It is a tricky problem to solve, though. I don't think there's an answer that doesn't offend some group, but then most compromises are like that.I'm very much in favour of people being given some basic education on being respectful of others. I don't care if you're Jewish, Catholic, gay, trans, straight, black, Asian or white - it's all ultimately irrelevant to me. What I do care about is that you have mutual respect for everyone else, provided that is paid back. I have no time for a-holes or disrespectful individuals, and it has no bearing at all on their background.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:45:25 pm
content: Fully agree. I loath the whole 'we need a bin for every kind of person' mentality. In reality we are all people. I divide people into two groups: nice people and a-holes. Fortunately the latter group is rather small.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:45:31 pm
content: Just for reference:- Slavery in Africa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa)- Slavery in contemporary Africa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_contemporary_Africa)

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:47:52 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 11:32:08 pmApparently it is not possible.Being me the only one (I think) that mentioned war and COVID, I understand that the above cite is to me.Will say it again: NONE ON THIS FUCKING FORUM KNOWS WHAT MY IDEAS ABOUT DEI ARE.Continue all you want with your joyful game, but DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH THAT I HAVE NOT SAID AND DO NOT PUT IDEAS ON MY HEAD.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 02:00:24 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 19, 2022, 12:46:27 pmYou mean, like Obama, the queen of England, the members of the Chinese communist party, Maria Theresia, Angela Merkel, the iron lady, should I go on? We could write an endless list here.Did you know that woman do 80% of purchasing decisions? Does this sound like men are in charge?Maybe men are in the top positions, because they dont mind working 18 hours a day including weekends, sacrificing the chance of having a normal family life, and having the right combination of personnel traits. Which personnel traits are not distributed equally. If you don't like that, go back a million years and ask woman to join the mammoth hunt, so that evolution can take a different route.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 02:12:08 pm
content: Here is one for the road. Slavery still exist, and guess who the new master isMONEY

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 02:29:07 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 19, 2022, 01:41:29 pmI agree. The same also should apply to female prisons spaces such as women's changing rooms, especially when the transperson hasn't had bottom surgery and rape/domestic violence centres.I was playing devil's advocate in that post.Quote from: tszaboo on August 19, 2022, 02:00:24 pmI agree.Again, I was playing devil's advocate by explaing why many people support DEI training.Perhaps I didn't make the fact I was playing devil's advocate clear enough. Post edited.

author: Neper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 03:04:18 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 19, 2022, 11:18:03 amJust forget it.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 04:36:49 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 17, 2022, 03:36:13 pmI read your other lengthy post where you talked about your struggle with depression and this has clarified to me some of your POVs that you have written on this forum. I am glad that you posted that, which helps people understand the struggles that people have with depression. The fact that Dave is suspending the rules for this thread has allowed many discussions to ebb and flow that otherwise would not come to light.I also wanted to let you know that you are not the only one that sees and suffer from all of the DEI policies that are more and more becoming the norm. This is obvious now, seeing that most of the posts are in agreement with your observations. Seeing all of the open opinions is cathartic, to say the least (thank you Dave).But, for the rest of the posters on this thread, including the ones protesting this thread, shows what open discussion looks like in a democratic society. I, for one, am very pleased to see open discussion with minimal emotional outbursts of name calling (except for a few).Since some here think that this forum is a democracy that can vote (which it is not, and rightly so), I vote that we continue the discussion in much the same manner that has, so far, been conducted.I only wanted to say that, as threads get longer, at times, the subject gets broader and many times starts sliding off-topic. Can we move back to the subject of the OP please? But by no means stop discussing.Finally, if it is not obvious yet, thank you Paulca for starting this thread.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 05:31:49 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 19, 2022, 12:20:05 pmI have, I work with several of them, I'm sure it depends greatly on the local demographics.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 05:37:07 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on August 19, 2022, 01:47:52 pmThen why don't you share your ideas then instead of just complaining and getting upset? That's the problem, you want the discussion shut down and yet you don't even contribute. You can't blame people for interpolating based on your responses, but if that is wrong then share whatever it is that you actually think on the topic. Dave has already made it clear that the discussion is not going to be shut down, so your options appear to be either participate or leave the thread.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 05:38:37 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on August 19, 2022, 01:47:52 pmYou're being overly sensitive. Dave talked in generics, you immediately interpreted that as yourself.If you're so worried about what others think of you, maybe explain your opinions?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 06:03:54 pm
content: "We are all of the same opinion here: The call for diversity is a complete fad."Am I the only one to see the irony there? Not only is this a poor example of a "discussion", but it is also a beautifully self-referential paradox. You nicely illustrate how a homogeneous group can be quite exclusive, even hostile -- possibly without even realizing it.Please note that this is the first time I have hinted in any way at my own position on "diversity" in this thread. Which is not that different from that of most other participants, in fact: I certainly find that the "woke" movement has gone off the rails and is putting a strain on society as a whole, including some professional environments.But I also think that all of us, myself certainly included, have biases which we should be self-aware of and which we should challenge ourselves about. The claims made by Dave and others in this thread -- that engineering is all about strictly objective assessments based only on merit -- don't show that self-awareness.In an earlier post I have voiced (once) my personal opinion that this forum is not a suitable place for this discussion. In response it has been implied by several members that I am a woke whatsoever, anti-democratic, and unable to tolerate differing opinions. I have also been personally attacked several times by Nominal Animal, in response to posts which never personally attacked him.But sure, you guys are doing great:Quote from: tpowell1830 on August 19, 2022, 04:36:49 pm

author: MarginallyStable
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 06:30:50 pm
content: QuoteOne of may projects was pushed to use "mother/baby" for this use case.... Now even that is being challenged as offensive.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 06:51:38 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 19, 2022, 06:03:54 pmThe problem is many of the woke crowd want to shutdown discussion, so it shouldn't be surprising you've been labelled as such for not wanting to have this debate.I think most people are aware that everyone has biases. The problem is there's no evidence to suggest they can be eliminated by unconscious bias training.Stereotypes exist because they're more often than not true. The idea that a certain group of people are more likely to hold a certain bias isn't always true. For example women hold similar biases towards women, as men do. I've recently been promoted, yet my mum made the assumption my new boss was male, yet it's a woman. I wouldn't be surprised if a black security guard is more likely to suspect a black man of shoplifting, than a white person, the same as a white security guard.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 06:56:02 pm
content: Really, I haven't the faintest clue what colour, shape, size, variety, sexual orientation or other discriminating factors about ANY of you. Except Maybe Dave as I've seen him obviously. I at least know he's a white ausy bloke.That's the beauty of this.I remember chatting with people online, night after night after night, for years, on VATSim (Flight sim enthusiast gaming community). One night someone posted someone else's picture and most people in the room went, "OH... err.. wow!", "nobody knew he was black". There was even an instance of "Wait, you're a 20 something girl? I thought you were like 14 with a camp voice!?". The mental pictures that people had built up of each other began to disintegrate and fresh minds suddenly open with a clean slate.The conversations and the coming together-ness I felt that night in that chat room was epic. The realisation that all these faceless people you had built such friendships with are all real diverse people. Black, white, asian, young, old, but if the topic is focused it just doesn't matter.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 07:09:05 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 19, 2022, 06:51:38 pmWhile biases may exist, there are also the practical realities of the workplace. For instance, when hiring, it can often be hard to find a single candidate that fits the bill, maybe two or three if we are lucky. At the end of the day, if the only suitable candidate we can find is a green alien from Mars, then we are going to hire a green alien from Mars. The idea that certain groups are under-represented in the workplace because they are actively ignored, rejected, or passed over, is not really consistent with running a successful business.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 07:45:40 pm
content: Quote from: MarginallyStable on August 19, 2022, 06:30:50 pmWelcome to the euphemism treadmill.The fundamental problem here is that master/slave accurately describes the way these components work together, so *any* words that accurately describe this will be synonyms of master and slave.One of the things that drives me absolutely nuts is when people completely fail to understand the concept of context. A word on its own is meaningless, it's just a collection of sounds, which conveys a message because we attach meaning to those sounds. That meaning depends greatly on context. In many cases when a person finds a word offensive it is because *they* are attaching meaning to that word that was not put there by the person using it. I was in one of those DEI meetings a few months ago where the presenter said something along the lines of "when you say x what you mean is y" I think the phrase was "when you ask somebody 'where are you from' you're saying 'you are different and don't belong here'" I had to bite my tongue to not respond with "don't you dare try to tell me what I actually mean!" Indeed if I ask 'where are you from' it means something like 'I can tell by your accent, etc that you came from a different locale/culture and I'm curious to know more about you and your culture'. It is not remotely saying "you don't belong here", not even close, and I really resent some random person acting like they know what's actually inside my head, personally I think they are just projecting their own biases on me.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 07:52:25 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 19, 2022, 06:51:38 pmMultiple studies have shown that bias training is not only ineffective at reducing bias, it actually exacerbates it.Stereotypes are almost always based on a kernel of truth. Do they apply to everybody? Of course not, but you and I both know that there is some truth behind the stereotypes of our respective cultures. You'll find a lot more uneducated cowboy hat wearing tobacco chewing gun carrying rednecks in the USA than you will in say the UK or India. We don't all fit that stereotype obviously but that doesn't mean it isn't true, and I don't take myself so seriously that I can't laugh at parts of my own culture.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 07:57:27 pm
content: Quote from: MarginallyStable on August 19, 2022, 06:30:50 pmI hope you wanted to write Birthing People.You really have to update your Wokecabulary.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 08:00:31 pm
content: Another funny thing is when some people do not want the "slave" term to be used anymore (as though erasing the word would erase the concept, 1984 anyone?), they exactly act as slaves."War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, and Ignorance is Strength."

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 08:04:38 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 19, 2022, 06:03:54 pmI can see where my statements may have been misunderstood, so, let me try to make myself clear:1. I agree that this FORUM should not turn into a place that allows general political discussion.2. With that said, I have read all of the posts of different people's opinions on regard this original poster and I understand that this particular subject IS of great interest to engineers BECAUSE of its impacts to work life. This is why I said what I said. This is the exception to Dave's rule that he is allowing because there is not a place to discuss this on the open internet because of the tactics that are rained down on those who have dissenting opinions from the left. Here, Dave can control that behavior and still have a general discussion about REAL problems engineers are having with the DEI policies in their work place, which are NOT democratic in nature and are forced on everyone.3. I have not inferred anything about you or anyone else that your opinion is bad nor have I labelled you in any way.4. Most free thinking adults that have intelligence will work out that EVERYONE has biases, however, these can't be expelled by training or force. One can only hope that in a polite society of freethinkers that a kinder, more sympathetic approach be taken, however, the general purpose of a working environment is to produce a product, not try and change people's mind. Rules are meant to keep peace and, if they become overbearing, time to leave. This is a vote with your feet that should be noted/observed by your company that these policies are not good.5. The world is a very hostile place, for everyone. It always has been.6. Those that think that social engineering will produce good, or better outcomes are mistaken. There is no single Utopia for everyone because there are no groups, only individuals.Please feel free to present a different POV.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 08:12:36 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 19, 2022, 07:57:27 pmPerhaps you really meant an egg producing person. Some 46 XX women need to have surrogates birth their children. But even that does not include the 46 X0 genotype, who are really women too, but may not produce eggs. How about Y-chromosome deficient person? Or, Y-chromosome challenged person?My preference? Female/Woman based on absence of a Y-chromosome. That was the standard as soon as our chromosomes could be counted.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 08:22:06 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 19, 2022, 08:00:31 pmI now want that printed on a T-Shirt. Anyone in on a group buy?

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 08:50:57 pm
content: Is it time for?Anyway. I'm out for now. Carry on.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 09:20:57 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 18, 2022, 11:37:33 amThe confusion here is really simple. Jordan Paterson is willing to say the uncomfortable stuff and is often quoted by the alt-right as they superficially misunderstand what he is saying or selectively quote him and live under the illusion that he is on their side as they cannot actually understand what he is saying.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 09:31:25 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 19, 2022, 09:20:57 pmKeep in mind the right whingers(sic) gave JP a break from harsh criticism when he got sick. But he's overdue having his wings clipped.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 12:10:30 am
content: Quote from: tpowell1830 on August 19, 2022, 04:36:49 pmThis is thread is no different to any other here on the forum.Those complainig it exists can stop reading it, and can even add it to their ignore list so they don't accidently see it.The only people keeping it going are those that continue to post. If no one posts any more the thread vanishes into obscurity. Be the change you want to see.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 12:24:33 am
content: Quote from: emece67 on August 18, 2022, 07:36:56 pmYou wouldn't believe the number of people think that pineapple on pizza is a good idea. How can anyone possibly fraternize with these deplorables?

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 12:42:02 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on August 19, 2022, 09:31:25 pmWell if you're going to clip his wings, do try to do a better job than the video in this post:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/diversity-equity-and-inclusion/msg4364650/#msg4364650In it the main argument is that JP is comparing male/female pay within the same disciplines and not across the entire male/female population: Women don't generally get a paycheck for raising their children, and "care" professions usually pay less, so we should apparently embrace socialism to correct this equity problem.But isn't that the point? Unless you believe that we are coerced into choosing our professions? I do believe that peoples interests (for example, things vs people) are deeply rooted, genetically and socially, and last-minute efforts to achieve equity or proportional representation within a field are doomed to failure. There is room for cultural change, but trying to fit a square peg into a round hole isn't good for either the peg or the hole.As for the working environment, I am friends with a woman who has a very impressive tech background (physics, optics, business, systems) -- we met at a standards-body meeting and my company ended up hiring her. When she and I discussed her experience in engineering she told me that she has endured gender-related difficulties. I haven't pressed her on this so I can't be sure, but I suspect that some of it came from a "women aren't supposed to be good at this stuff" attitude (which I believe is changing), but most of it is because she was a beautiful woman surrounded by men. And during the later stages of her career she was working with sales and marketing men, and those guys can be animals! Also, much of her experience was on the USA east coast, and the attitudes there appear to be different than I saw in the Silicon Valley region.So I believe that the Engineering culture is different than the Sales/Marketing culture (or the Professional Sports culture, or any other culture.) When I used to go to trade shows I would have a completely different after-hours experience when I hung out with sales/marketing vs with engineering. And there are regional differences too. So it's complicated.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 01:14:41 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on August 20, 2022, 12:42:02 amAll the different reasons I see for hating on JP get a bit tedious. For me, I think it's funny how he used to go on about the family unit and a woman's place and all that, yet, when you look at his own family circumstances of late... It's easy to take cheap shots at someone so verbose.I don't particularly like much of JP's greatest hits. What I do appreciate though is his conviction. Right, wrong or otherwise I'll listen to what he has to say because I know he has at least thought about it not just parroting something off twitter.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 01:55:04 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on August 20, 2022, 01:14:41 amAnother interesting person who speaks with what seems to me to be well thought out words is Ben Shapiro. He can present quite a case and pull numerous diverse facts and figures out of thin air.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 03:44:10 am
content: @paulca, sorry to hear about your depression. If this is caused by your job and the environment surrounding it, my advise is to try and find another job where you can thrive.I myself have been in a situation where I had a break down, which took over 9 months to recover from and being advised to return to the same job, which was a big mistake. Nothing had changed and within a year I was nearing the point of another break down. I quit that job on medical reasons and luckily received unemployment benefits to pull me through a period of two and a half years to get back on my feet. Unable to find a new job I started my own small company. Did that for 17 years and had enough of it so decided to quit. Sure I had earned enough money to make that decision, but I never regret it.I'm very glad I don't have to deal with the idiocy the working world is going through at the moment.This thread is very diverse in issues with a somewhat common ground in discrimination, either positive or negative. To explain my earlier post about slavery still being in existence, it was brought on by the talk about the words master and slave. There are some that already explained that they are just words and it is always important to place them in context of usage.Looking at modern society slavery still exists in one form or another. Most of us are constantly enslaving our selves by wanting more and as such putting pressure on earning more money to hopefully improve our lives. The master here being money.But there are many other forms. Think of abusive relations where either the man or the woman oppresses their spouse, often by the use of force. And yes, there are also abusive wives, it is not just a male dominated sector of pain. And many of the slaves here let it happen because they still love their spouse, and he does not mean it that way, etc.Also take a look at the world of SM. Here it is very normal practice, but there other terms are used to name the participants, but mistress is just the female version of master. Dominatrix is also used to name the same role.So I join the others in stating that words don't harm, but the intent of the user might.The human race is somewhat like a pendulum, constantly swinging without finding a balance, going from hype to hype. Maybe one day it will be found, the balance, but I fear not any time soon. Still driven way to much by testosterone and estrogen. Because whether we like it or not there are differences between not just man and women but also between people in general. And I guess that is a good thing. It would get boring real quick if everybody was like me or you.Edit: fixed a typo

author: AnalogueLove1867
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 04:14:15 am
content: Oh well. I guess every online website open to the public is inevitably going to become another reddit due to current societal pressures.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 04:35:58 am
content: Quote from: AnalogueLove1867 on August 20, 2022, 04:14:15 amSorry I cannot see the comparison.There is a supporter's area.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 06:45:55 am
content: Quote from: AnalogueLove1867 on August 20, 2022, 04:14:15 amThe thing is that some things are inherently intertwined. The industry does not exist in a vacuum unfortunately.Ideally we wouldn't need to discuss the Russian invasion of Ukraine on a technical forum (or at all since ideally it wouldn't have happened), unfortunately it affects the electronics industry in a number of ways.SJW going rabid and trying to rename master-slave devices to a 'less offensive' name? Ditto - it affects the way we work and what we do and might affect tons of technical documents.China looking hungrily at Taiwan? The same.Pressures to prefer diverse applicants to best applicants are affecting the industry and the way we work.There's a difference between an absolutely general forum with topics like "Is God a blue midget?" and "The finer points in breeding French poodles" to a thematic related general forum with topics like "The Divine Blue Midget sect has blown up a semiconductor fab, anyone know what components to stock up upon?" or "Help, my French poodle keeps eating my scope probes!".

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 08:32:31 am
content: The reason I believe this particular subject is in scope is that it does not deal with the D-E-I in general, and is limited to how it affects engineering and science, specifically electrical engineering.Every single person and workplace and company has room and reason to improve, that's for sure. The point is, the current approach to D-E-I have already been tried before, and historically produced only horrible results, and therefore it looks to be an extremely destructive path for the entire industry.It is the sort of situation where in the past, scientists and engineers have intervened to point out the fatal flaws in the plan.We used to be listened to, but no longer; now, we seem to somehow be the enemy instead, and will be (already are) blamed for those flaws and failures.I do not understand this at all.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 09:03:38 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on August 20, 2022, 01:55:04 amJP is a professor of clinical psychology and was practicing who has been doing this for 40 years. It's a scientific field, which is based on facts that are agreed upon with the scientific method.The same way, as I can write a post about how the 74HC595 works, without dissecting PN junctions, the same way he is going to talk about ie gender differences, without citing the source of the information. He tries doing this, and the speech quickly falls apart, because you need to reference obscure studies, or philosophers.Really imagine talking about electronics without bringing up Volta in every post. And then imagine doing this while the public is interested in what you have to say. And now add a small, but loud minority of people who are shouting from the top of their lungs that you are a racist bigot, because you don't question Maxwell, and they claim that electrons can decide their own charge. You will very quickly find that talking about this is not that easy. And social studies is a very difficult field, with sampling issues, the lack of trusted data. It hasn't been around for that long.If you listen for more than 5 minute clips that are labelled: "JP destroys feminists", you will find that he is returning to a few axioms, backed by research. One is the famous lobster study, that everyone likes to pick on, which is about social hierarchies, dominance and the importance of hormones regulating it all.Also people tend to misunderstand what he is saying because, it is overly complicated, but also because they don't have the attention span to listen to it as a whole. He say that something is in a way, and brings reasons why, it doesn't mean that he agrees or prefers it that way.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 09:55:55 am
content: Question.I work for a UK company, with a UK contract.They contract me to a US company.That US company has information about me. That US company may, it seems, to be using that information in a way which is not compatible with my UK contract.I have already asked a related question to HR twice and not received and answer. "Under what data governance does this PII fall? Is it GDPR, Safe Harbour? Who stores it and what are their data control policies and "allowed uses"?Nothing.Do you think I can even submit a freedom of information request to the US company for a copy of all PII and non PII they hold about me? Can I submit a redact request if I find a field like "Cis gender male"?The last few times this has occurred, like every time they contract me overseas, I protest my personal information being given to customers, but I end up providing it as to not be a blocker. I mean these days you have background checks, bar checks, criminal report checks, and even working with the vulnerable people checks, apparently I'm squeaky clean or so it seems. That's all fine, when they request a UK official document that is a public certificate like a recent bar report. It's when they ask for other identifiable information like social media accounts or personal email addresses, personal mobile numbers and then INSIST that they are personal and not work accounts. I've had to create "burner email" accounts at request of management and even use an old phone for access a customer system because the app they installed asked for FAR, FAR too many permissions, including the ability to enable your microphone and camera! It had to be installed from "third party sources" and showed up on our phone as a security risk! One unnamed extremely large company force connected your personal home computer's microphones and webcams to the remote virtual host and prevented them from being disabled. The support staff for the software, external to the company (on Reddit) told me to open device manager and disable my devices there if I wanted privacy!!!!Honestly. I don't think I need a new job, I just need to continue to suggest that when this current project ramps down, I do not want to work for a US company again. I want a contract working with local people, in local teams, for local business, ie UK or EU. The US is rapidly departing the civilized world and I want to distance myself from it for a while.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 10:05:04 am
content: Holy Moly.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 10:49:49 am
content: @paulcaI second the wow and cannot comment specifically on much of what you describe for lack of knowledge.In the US, "at will" employees (a legal term) have some rights but the employer can do many things. FOIA requests apply to the government. I do not believe they apply to companies. Companies can request and demand many things so long as they do not adversely affect a protected class disproportionately to the majority.For example, a company can forbid its employees to use tobacco products (i.e., chew or smoke) even in their private homes and can enforce that by testing for nicotine metabolites in blood. Testing of illegal/illicit drugs have been going on for a long time, but expansion to dictating otherwise legal lfestyle choices is more recent. I am not sure whether the question of placing arbitrary restrictions has been tested.*(see edit) But smoking, vaccination, health physicals, etc. are justified on the basis of costs for healthcare that may pass through to the company or other legitimate business factors, regardless of how lame that excuse is. Some companies will not allow employees to pilot a private aircraft.Of course, that applies to at will employees. Unionized employees are covered by contract, but individual employees may have little input into them. In Minnesota, a recent teachers union contract allows seniority to be bystepped if a reduction in force (which usually strictly follows seniority) would result in the firing of a less senior minority person over a more senior non-minority person. That is, the more senior person who is non-minority gets fired. I am sure the non-minority employees do not like that.For contracted employees, both sides are bound by contract, but in most cases, the employer has the upper hand.In your case, it probably boils down to the contract your employer has with the American company and whether you are an at will or contracted employee. I doubt it will give you a copy of that contract without a battle. Your grievance probably begins with your employer. If you are one of the protected groups in the US and can show/claim that you have been illegally discriminated against, you might point that out, but I doubt you will get very far. More likely, you will end up reassigned and/or recalled home. You will probably not be part of those discussions.*Edit: There are rules against actions that violate the "public conscience." That is, an at will employee cannot be fired if the reason goes against public conscience, such as whistle blowing. Any smart employer will never give a cause for discharging an at will employee. Also, employment law in the US is usually at the State level.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 10:54:52 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on August 20, 2022, 10:05:04 amYes indeedEdit: On the plus side and to follow Monty Python advise to look on the bright side of life, in another 10 years time experienced and good engineers will have become a minority

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 12:21:23 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on August 20, 2022, 10:49:49 amI'm curious if the "wow" is because of the rat's nest of being internationally "seconded"/contracted or because I went there?It is a rat's nest. Especially given the sector I work in is a high security information domain. I am legally bound internationally on many things, including criminal negligence type offenses. Thankfully I'm nowhere near the front line on those things. It's meaningless integers, reals, timestamps and strings to me. I'm thankful for that. I will talk about my work from a software/systems engineering aspect, but never using empirical business information or specifics. "Never take it home.", in the first place, policy. I'll talk about a company, but never mention which. I'll redact and fabricate specifics to give examples. I've yet to get in trouble for disclosure or other security related infractions, although I have whistle blown on a few practices and thankfully that was received as the correct professional checks and balances that needed to be addressed. (Account/password sharing. Cross/out of channel communications requesting internal company information or contact information).I hadn't even thought of the "criminal" aspects. I mean whose law applies? If I am sitting in Belfast (UK with a big toe stuck in the EU's door), accessing a computer system in London, using it to access systems in the US, working with people from Singapore for a US company. I'd start by assuming "all of the above", and that's never really been a problem.It's not really a problem now (limiting scope), but it's like I can hear the shells landing in the distance and a shift between the US and UK legal policies on factors such as discrimination and PII disclosure and protection, could move that front line closer and, not going to theworstcase scenario, I could be criminally or civilly charged in the states for a legally allowed action in the UK or vice versa. I don't know much about US law, but I do know a hell of a lot more about US law than I do Singapore law!Personal issues with this asides, there are genuine professional information security issues presenting which ARE part of my professional scope of discussion in work. I am legally/professionally required to understand and adhere to things like GDPR et. al. and encourage enforcement of those policies in software.I did look at what the "current" safe guards are on employee information transferred from the UK to the US and no surprises Brexit has more or less trashed it and paraphase: "there currently are short comings in the data transfer legislation which leaves UK employees unsatisfactorily protected". It basically says, "you be boned.", it's mostly up to the companies and their agreements, other more stringent frameworks exist, but they are not mandatory.The GDPR (and other) 'rights' have a clause on consent. Consent is everything. You have to provide people with a real choice to provide or not provide the information. I don't get that, some times for regulatory reasons, but very often because it's a customer company asking for my details and they don't accept "N/A" and "Undisclosed" as answers in their part of the world. That has professional implications of refusal. Always saying "No" to requests for PII from customers would tend to make you inflexible and less valuable to your company.In Northern Ireland we have been through this. It still goes on today. Every year, every employee must submit an FEC (Fair employment commission) disclosure stating their age, sex, religion and community alignment. These surveys, almost like voting, are meant to be handled in the upmost of privacy and the form does NOT include their name or any identifier which can be associated with an actual person. This is extremely heavily regulated "diversity" monitoring to highlight, not fix, but highlight "community biases"... the regulation around never attaching that information to PII is important. However it is of course frequently poorly executed. This year, a single person in HR emailed the entire Belfast office with a word document and asked to complete it. It wasn't even a well done Word form, it wasn't editable and you couldn't tick the tick boxes or edit the form text boxes. I did complete it and return it, but it felt wrong. In the days when it was a paper form, on site, it went back into a pile instantly, no identifier on it. But asking for it over email, or asking for it via anything BUT a completely anonymous route is a violation of the principle of it being none PII. Your name is on the email, your name is in the edit history on the document. Luckily it was to a single person email address, but you never can tell the actual distribution for monitoring.The important, related part about this form is how it's processed. There is the "None of the above" type options. However the data officer is permitted to know the post code or primary school of the subject and is permitted to put an "assumed community" on the record. If THIS practice is applied to surveys on topics such as gender, sexual orientation, race, etc. etc. Many companies may have HR records inappropriately labelling me in a discriminatory way without consent to do so.To keep your job, you maybe should just shut up and keep smiling, keep taking the salary.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 01:23:50 pm
content: Salery? Shouldn't it be called compensation for personal suffering?

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 01:53:50 pm
content: Quote from: madires on August 20, 2022, 01:23:50 pmYour not far off the mark with that. Often you just get called in and given a pay rise. When you ask why, they say, the market is changing, we want to keep you. It's pro-active retention "pay increases to remain competitive in the market and limit attrition". Take a look at what the new startups in town are paying while poaching staff and bump the employees you want to keep close to that figure.I once openly referred to it (my end of year bonus), as "danger pay" and got a wry smile out of the senior delivery manager of understanding, and then asked not to call it that.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 02:45:06 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 20, 2022, 01:53:50 pmDon't know what companies you work at, but I've always had to negotiate my raises. At best I've had 3% without asking. I've never lagged inflation (as far as I'm aware) and managed to get 20-30% at a time, but it usually requires a bit of haggling and pressing the boss.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 03:05:03 pm
content: I would like to draw your attention to the parallels in academia, how thequalityof research has dropped during the last two decades, because of the skewed pressure applied by the administration. The quality of a paper does not matter, only the number of publications does. This has lead to a huge increase in retractions and errors, and what is called the "reproducibility crisis": it looks like increasing amounts of the "results" cited in peer-reviewed articles are actually completely manipulated garbage, in the hopes of ensuring funding.In other words, the vast majority of scientists have been conditioned to accept that the numbers have been tweaked "slightly" in order to secure the research financially. Not all do it, perhaps not even the majority, but it's pretty close, considering a quarter to half of papers will be retracted or be shown incorrect in two or three decades on average, or something like that (depends highly on the exact field).Extrapolating to engineering, when the D-E-I gains a proper foothold, the fight is over, lost. Instead of engineering products you can stand behind and put your name into, you will be conditioned to value appearance and emotional reactions over everything else. If you try to fight that, you will find yourself being punished financially –– with rewards and pay rises withheld –– because at that point, your employers are no longer interested in the product; they will be interested in theopticsonly.I cannot in good conscience recommend any of my young relatives to go to university anymore. They no longer teach the things they were founded for, and instead concentrate on indoctrination and bullshit instead. When they emerge, they would find it obvious and proper that scientific research is unreproducible, because everyone has their own personal facts that are derived from their emotional and social makeup.This does not mean that the world is doomed, because while humans are stupid on average, we're also immensely resilient.Just because companies will no longer reward engineers for their efforts, does not mean the world does not need their efforts.Engineering is what keeps the world functional. The need exists and will not go away; it's just that we need ways to make sure those in need still know we're here and capable of doing the work needed.Thus, the question to solve, in my opinion, is how to avoid being trapped by D-E-I, and keep doing the work, with acceptable compensation.(Alas, I had to admit that in academia, at least in this part of the world, in my own particular field, that is no longer possible. Nobody is interested in funding anythingnew, only whatever everyone else is already doing. So, I will have to try and find a new way to do what I can do. Because of the importance of commercial factors in engineering, the irrationality hasn't reached that strongly yet, and there likely are still many viable strategies left. I'm hoping that someone here at EEVblog has found some ways –– other than smiling and nodding and going with the flow and just not giving a shit –– to help those that are seeking such strategies. The one I know of from my business running days, is tickling the avarice of those who make the decisions. That is, pointing it out how one can make the business, and therefore the bosses, a shitton of money, while the D-E-I way can realistically only be described as "go woke, go broke".)

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 03:42:42 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 20, 2022, 03:05:03 pmA friend of ours worked as an administrator for an university professor doing research on Alzheimer's and there it was somewhat normal practice to put out as much publications as possible to secure funding. The content did not matter that much, as long as the money kept pouring in. This was maybe a decade ago, and I guess it is still common practice.It does show what is wrong with capitalism. Everything is driven by money. Can't come up with a better system though, because all the other ones we know of are also flawed.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 04:05:13 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 20, 2022, 01:53:50 pmThe way out is to become self employed. No more office BS and politics to deal with. But usually you still get invited to BBQs and Christmas dinners.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 04:59:51 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 20, 2022, 12:21:23 pmI think you could talk to an employment lawyer about this.I think that if you are a UK individual working for a UK company, then your personal information is protected under the GDPR. Even if such information becomes known to a foreign entity, GPDR still applies. (Whether it has any teeth or not, is another matter.)The response of "wow" is because of the intrusive nature of the demands, and the fact that you complied with such intrusions.You are not personally contracted to any organization other than your UK employer, and you have no personal obligation to other organizations. Your employer is responsible to safeguard any personal information they hold about you, and they could be heavily fined under GDPR if they did not protect it appropriately.If your employer wants to second you overseas, the arrangement is between your employer and and the other organization. You are just piggy in the middle.I think many of us reading this feel we would be less compliant than you have been.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 05:22:57 pm
content: Working on secret stuff is a different ball game.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 05:30:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 20, 2022, 05:22:57 pmWorking on American secret stuff for the US government is for Americans, not others. "You have to jump through all these hoops and go through all these background checks to get a security clearance to work on this stuff." Question: why would I do that? Answer: Patriotism! You should do this for love of country! But it is not my country. If I am British, I might do this for the British government, to work on British secret stuff, but why would I do it for America?In short, you want to impose all these burdens on me so I can get all stressed out and worried for the sake of a few dollars? Go take a hike!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 05:37:08 pm
content: Understandable but most of the west-European countries work together with the USA on secret stuff so the USA also wants to know who has their hands on their secrets. This is a choice you have to make for yourself if you want to have a job that involves 'state secrets'. I have had such a job myself and I have to say I wasn't to keen on going through the whole clearance process (interviews and allowing access to personal information).Ofcourse the situation is different if your employer forces you into such a situation (change of job description so to say).

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 05:48:23 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 20, 2022, 05:37:08 pmThis is the key point. You have to look a the big picture, quality of life, what really matters to you, and then decide, "Do I really want or need to have a job that...?"

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 06:44:32 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 20, 2022, 04:05:13 pmYeah. But still need to be careful and clearly set your limits and your own policies. Because some clients will try to treat you as if you were an employee.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 07:04:09 pm
content: The whole security business is being taken quite far and not just in the framework paulca is talking about. Go and apply for a bank account and see what kinds of questions get asked there. Or even when you have an account and they want more information from you. This all of course under what ever law to prevent laundering and terrorism.And when you don't comply they start threatening with blocking or closing your account.Saw mentioning online of people who had to answer questions about political orientation of them and their friends and relatives, but personally had to answer questions about how much money I make, and how much money I have to spare, and so on. My standard first response is "none of your business, and totally irrelevant on the subject of laundering and terrorism". Only after a while I will cave in and supply somewhat false information, because still none of their business.The government knows how much money I have and what I earn due to tax declarations, on which I'm honest.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 07:05:49 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on August 20, 2022, 12:24:33 amI absolutely love pineapple on pizza and don't understand why some people really do seem to have such a strong emotional response to that. All they have to do is what I do when encountering any number of foods I loathe, I eat something else.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 07:12:43 pm
content: But people who don't share our own tastes should be silenced, right? Because that's clearly offensive.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 07:14:56 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 20, 2022, 04:05:13 pmThat's much harder in the USA than it is in other parts of the world as our healthcare is mostly employer provided. Getting health insurance as a self employed individual is exorbitantly expensive, as in >$1k/mo. It's definitely an aspect of our system that I'm not fond of.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 08:01:37 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 20, 2022, 07:14:56 pmBut how about taxes? What kind of income tax percentage are you looking at? Health care insurance ain't cheap over here either... The bottom line may not be better at this side of the big pond.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 09:41:32 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 20, 2022, 07:14:56 pmSimilar in Germany. Here the employer and employee each pay half. If you're self-employed, your bill is double (i pay ~$600/mo + $1200/year deductible for example in private health insurance; govt would be even more expensive (~$900) for worse service).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 10:51:04 pm
content: Quote from: KaneTW on August 20, 2022, 09:41:32 pmTypically you make sure to charge your customer enough. In the end an employer will also need to charge their customer to pay for the health insurance.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 11:11:49 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 20, 2022, 10:51:04 pmIn the end it's the same sum. I don't know why it's split like that in the first place, probably weird tax reasons.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 06:44:46 am
content: To add on to the madness, a little bit off topic, the wife just read somewhere that even the fairy tale snowwhite is under the magnifying glass of political correctness and #metoo movement because "the prince did not ask if he may kiss her"

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 07:55:38 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on August 19, 2022, 09:31:25 pmI've watched various people try to put words in his mouth. I gave up watching that channel 4 interview, I rather think less now of the female interviewer. There was this pattern of not giving him a chance to answer once she realized he had an argument, it was all "so you think...... about this other thing.... what is you one ward answer" We have come to a position where you have to be able to give a 3 word answer to a complex question or one that needs context or you are written off.I suspect that as he has become a bit of a star now some of his later stuff may be more entertainment purposes, maybe he has run out of things to say but needs to keep switching it up a bit in order to keep people interested. This is the problem when your income depends on something like this.I listened to an interview with Martin Lewis, the UK's money saving expert. He wrote an even handed article on Brexit laying out the pro's and cons of each aspect. For transparencies sake he explained that given all that he had said for his particular circumstances he would vote remain. He was asked to be on a TV debating show and was asked if he wanted to be on the for or against panel. He said that he did not want to be on either, he wanted to be independent and simply answer to the facts. They refused to take him having been very keen to have him because in their view there was no even handed debate, it was half a panel for and half against. Never before did I realize that someone else thought the same as I do!

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 09:08:11 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 20, 2022, 03:42:42 pmNo, it hasnothingto do with capitalism, and everything to do with the metrics used to measure performance!I definitely support competition (a market economy, if you will) between scientists, and definitely also in engineering too. The problem is that the metrics are shifting away from the work and work product itself, into secondary or even completely unrelated things that the administration finds preferable.In a very real sense, it is anticapitalistic and socialist, because it is effectively insisting that the individual performance does not matter, that it is those secondary things –– like thenumberof publications; if that was an actual goal, wouldn't it be easier to set up your own publication and just publish absolutely the shit out of everything? –– that are somehow more important. You know, like your abilities and knowledge does not matter, that your worth as a scientist of engineer is somehow defined by your immutable characteristics like the color of your skin, the structure of your genitals, and so on.I have always considered this a crisis ofleadership. That instead of taking responsibility, administration and business executives do not want to deal with the social pressure, and are completely willing to run the science/business to the ground, if it means they themselves will be generously compensated and will remain unscathed, and to hell with their underlings/workers; they will just have to fend for themselves, as this isn't a daycare anyway.In Finland, this applies to software engineering and IT projects, most definitely. As I've mentioned, only about a third of large, multimillion IT projects ever complete producing an useful result. Yet, somehow, that is not a problem: the same people running those projects to ground keep getting new jobs, again and again, as if utter failure is somehow never their fault.The question is, what to do to 1) protect oneself against being captured by this, and 2) how to help others being captured by this kind of destructive patterns?

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 09:37:14 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 21, 2022, 09:08:11 amI see your point. It is a different take on capitalism then I had in mind. It being the driving force to make money and not the competitive drive between making better and cheaper products to win market share.There are always different interpretations possible for a term. Take communism, China is pointed to as being a communistic country, but in the basics it is not. It is more a party ruled dictatorship. True communism is very different. Same for democracy. A true democracy can never work, where the greater public has to vote on every issue that comes along. But this is all semantics.In an ideal world where money would not be an issue and science would not be dependent on it, it could be about science and science alone, but then personal ego's come into play, as they do now too, and turns things into shit again.With world population growing and more and more people are lead into science without a real affinity with the subject it waters down, and we get what we see now.Your take on it being a "crisis of leadership" fits the bill for me. It is indeed annoying that the leaders, despite running a business into the ground, still walk a way with lots of money and are employed somewhere else to do it all over again. And society is fine with it, as long as their personal lives are not affected to much.An argument I heard of lately, that is used to justify the big companies making lots of profit, is that these profits are paying for your pension, because pension funds invest in these big companies. In it self not a bad thing, but the fact that there is such a big difference between the workers salaries and that of the leaders feels bad. I don't feel it to be in balance with the actual work load and stress of the job to justify this difference.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 10:08:37 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 21, 2022, 09:37:14 amYes. In my view, the driving force is the demand, and the unfortunate fact is that us humans don't wantbetterproducts, we wantcheaperproducts.I've heard time and time again, how people first buy cheap tools, become dissatisfied with them, and end up having to buy the expensive tools anyway.If you have to buy cheap work shoes every year at a price ofX, when proper work shoes costing 3Xwould last four years, you're wasting money irrationally. Us humans have to spend effort to be rational, because our instincts and biological tendencies are stronger than we think.(That –– it being somehow okay to completely rejectrationalityand logic in favour of emotions and perceptions and personal beliefs –– is in my opinion a bigger danger to science and engineering than D-E-I is: the latter affects the humans doing the work, but the former rejects the entire fields themselves.)Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 21, 2022, 09:37:14 amNah.. As you say, we'd find some other way to turn it into shit anyway. I'm fine with science being tied to money. It's just that the metric used to tie the two together has to be something useful, something verifiable, and not some emotive D-E-I thing., but then personal ego's come into play, as they do now too, and turns things into shit again.With world population growing and more and more people are lead into science without a real affinity with the subject it waters down, and we get what we see now.Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 21, 2022, 09:37:14 amThe Twitter-Elon Musk ongoing debacle is an example of how these things will go on in engineering companies, if not stopped in time.You'll have very weird biases, like entire product lines being canceled because they used a component whose manufacturer used a conflict mineral sourced from a war zone. That component manufacturer will not be targeted at all, however; only the product line will be. And the executives will be Teflon-shielded from any repercussions of their actions, because of course they will be, and line engineers and designers will be thrown to the wolves.Am I exaggerating? That is exactly what is happening to scientists. University admins are sitting in their towers completely untouched, and throwing individual professors to the wolves to keep themselves safe.. At most, they will fire them and let the university lawyers fight a long, protracted battle against unlawful dismissal, because the entire point is to minimise the risk to administration. To hell with the university itself, if the admin is protected, safe, and well compensated. How the hell did they manage to raise themselves above the purpose of the organization in the first place?Here in Finland, executive officers in larger companies have already managed to do the same, with boards being basically cross-populated with friends, so that no matter what happens, the executive officers will be handsomely compensated even if they royally fuck up. We saw that with Nokia first-hand.Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 21, 2022, 09:37:14 amAh, the good old "too big to fail" argument. It does not explain why the pay and bonuses for the executives is basically independent of the company bottom line.I suspect it is the same as a Finnish politician recently admitted. Because joining the EU massively increased the pay for Finnish politicians, they now are so far above the median income, that they really lose touch with the real life of an average citizen when they start getting the political pay grades. They immediately jump to the top 10% of yearly wages, and that skews their view; their values change.They say that power corrupts, but I think more importantly, unearned income makes one completely blind to others' efforts.Which all comes back to the individual fairness arguments I keep repeating...

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 10:49:02 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 21, 2022, 10:08:37 amMoney is far more a corruption motivator then power. And don't forget with money you can buy power, and also sway justice to some extend.But that might open the other can of worms I mentioned earlier, about lady justice being blind.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 02:51:45 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 21, 2022, 10:49:02 amShe's got a nose. She can smell the money and she loves it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 05:10:14 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 20, 2022, 08:01:37 pmI don't even know, I know they're lower here than there, but taxes still take a big chunk out of my income, roughly 30% IIRC, but it doesn't feel the same as money I have to pay because it's money I never see in the first place. The one that really bugs me is property taxes because that goes up and up with rising property values, it's not uncommon for elderly people who have paid off their mortgage to be taxed out of their home they own. That's a completely different topic though.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 05:16:01 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 21, 2022, 06:44:46 amWhile I haven't heard about Snow White, I'm not the least bit surprised somebody has complained about something about it. I've seen the whole ask for permission thing come up before though and that is further complicated by the fact that a large percentage of people are turned off or otherwise bothered by someone asking permission to do something in the heat of the moment rather than reading body language. All the various human courting rituals were not engineered out of nowhere, they have evolved throughout our history and trying to change them suddenly to fit some random ideology is bound to create problems. I personally do not want some gal to ask permission if she wants to do something, just try it and if I don't like it I'll politely decline.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 05:26:51 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 21, 2022, 05:10:14 pmAlthough taxation is a little lower in general in the USA than in Europe, it is not that much lower, and really not low enough to justify the complete absence of government benefits in return. Based on public services provided, overall taxation in the USA should be much lower than it is.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 05:28:10 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 21, 2022, 05:16:01 pmI might have been mistaken with Snow White and that it was about sleeping beauty, but that is not of importance. It is showing how things get out of hand, because come on it is a fairy tail, and when it bothers someone to what kind of message it could send to some youngsters, then just explain it after reading or watching it, but don't go on a witch hunt.In the courting rituals the consent often is indeed visual, but I can also see a problem then when one of the participants changes it's mind and says no, it does not always sit so well with the other participant. And then it possibly gets ugly. In my case the wife would not be that happy if a nice lady came up to me and started kissing me

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 05:45:30 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 21, 2022, 05:28:10 pmWell yes, but it has always been complicated, there is no way to prevent someone from not taking rejection well other than to teach them ahead of time how to handle rejection. At least where I'm from, polite people don't just walk up and start kissing somebody they find attractive out of the blue, let alone married people. For those who wish to cut to the chase, there are people whose career centers around providing such services.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 06:12:35 pm
content: This might tell you why I stick it.On enumerations, tax, et. al. It's pretty good here. Starting with the highlights.30 days paid annual leave. Additional sick days as you need, don't take the piss. 37.5 hour week (40 hours basically, but they don't pay you for 30 minutes of the day, lunch). US Companies here put that to a 40 hour week, which forces them to provide a full hour for lunch making it a 45 hour elapsed week. That's not nice in winter this far North, you don't see daylight from November till March!Private company group medical policy (BUPA). By using a group policy they can turn the bells and whistles on and it still only costs about £300 a month 'each', obviously some use it more than others, but the group premium seems to work... especially as I have been a smoker as they don't even require any medical history beyond the usual "duty of care" questions for HR you don't have to answer. A personal medical insurance quote for me alone was £700 a month for the most basic plan and about £1100 for an equivalent one!The health cover is "benefit in kind" or something, meaning while the company pay it for me, I still have to pay tax on it. So it get's added back INTO my salary for tax and then removed! Works similarly for other things.I'm allowed to earn something like 14k tax free. After that it's 20% until you get to around £50k when it jumps to 40%. Then there is "national insurance", which is more complicated, with you and the employer paying half, it's like 13% after tax. This "banks" unemployment benefit credits basically - or its supposed to.If I get a £1k bonus, I usually only see about £550 or it.Pension contributions are tax free, up to a fairly high ceiling. Employers usually give between 3-5% into your pension and will match you up to 7-10%. It's actually worth considering shifting anything in that 40% bracket into your pension if you can. You do pay tax on draw down, but only at the rate you draw, so you can avoid the 40% completely.... if you can wait on the money.A clatter of other little perks and benefits.Obviously Im not saying my actual salary, as it would be 90% meaningless anyway, it's all relative to the cost of living where you work.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 06:17:18 pm
content: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_03D1iaFJzw

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 09:55:31 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal AnimalYeah, I do that. Generally I have two modes of buying:1. Know exactly what I want, the precise features it must have, the features I definitely don't want, and sometimes even the manufacturers exact model reference. It costs what it costs.And I know all that because the other buying mode is:2. I don't know precisely what I want (maybe it's a new tool) and I don't want to spend all my money on something that isn't right but I can't change because it was so expensive. So I buy a cheap one to find out what all that stuff is so I can then revert to 1 if necessary.Sometimes the cheap one is just fine anyway

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 09:58:26 pm
content: Quote from: MT on August 21, 2022, 06:17:18 pmPenis envy. Nothing more. Nothing less.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 11:59:39 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 21, 2022, 05:28:10 pmYour wife is quite lenient. I get a lot of flack when a lady just looks at me. That can go on until over a year later... Like it is my fault I look good?

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 05:01:33 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 11:59:39 pmWhich probably is part of the reasons why she likes you

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 11:48:15 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on August 21, 2022, 09:58:26 pmI'm going to try and not derail the topic too much, but a bit of recent tracking of where the front lines of this battle currently lie... you hit upon a VERY recent and serious crisis among young women. or actually young female children. I won't derail further than to ask, if you are interested to go and do a bit of digging on current affairs surrounding gender and young girls in UK, US and Canada. I don't think here is to the place to reproduce this.Apologies if I open a Pandora's box for you here.Maybe, just maybe a decade of saying that men are more powerful, have all the money, have all the success and get everything they want has had a strange effect on our children, once they are introduced with the potential to choose their sex and/or gender. I think we all need to stop changing societal values from week to week based on twitter storms and SERIOUSLY start listening to what we are doing to the upcoming generation in the process. The poor things are being pulled all over the place at a critical time of personal development and all "we" are doing is confusing the hell out of them. Being a teenager IS an identity crisis before you introduce neo-identity and gender politics and drugs.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 12:19:50 pm
content: I guess you have a point there. And by handing them smartphones and computers at a (to) young age the (mis)information is in direct reach.In my youth you also had things that might have been frowned upon, but the things you hear nowadays about what kind of games are being played on a sexual level, you get to think that the sexual revolution in the 60's was very mild. There is one where young girls have a rating system and earn points on what sexual acts they perform. Good times for young boys you can imagine, but good for society I don't think so. Peer pressure seems to grow exponential with time by the looks of it.If this is a direct result of "penis envy" who knows.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 02:01:12 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 22, 2022, 12:19:50 pmYou maybe miss the gravity I was trying to suggest to. We are not talking about "mis information" here, we are talking about child sexual abuse. We are talking about mutilating children. We are talking about drugging children. We are talking about councillors, GPs and teachers diagnosing children with gender dysphoria and sending them to clinics to be medically and surgically altered. En-Mass.In the UK you cannot even tattoo a minor with or without parental consent. However, a child CAN consent to a dual mastectomy, potentially without parental consent being needed. In the medical profession there are allowances for child/minor consent for live altering procedures. These are being exploited by private (and public medical clinics). Some patients only receive a 10 minute GP appointment and a 1 hour session with a carefully selected "woke" psychologist to be diagnosed with gender disphoria an PRESCRIBED puberty blockers and hormone replacement therapy.The UK NHS client count went from 5 in 2010 to 2600 in 2020. In order to meet demand they have admitted to "fast lining the process". 35 child physchologists have resigned from the clinic in the past 10 years. Most citing that there are not enough checks, balances and no psychological or psychiatric approach is considered or can even be discussed due to "trans gender" critisim. Even when parents CLEARLY demonstrate homophobic bias and are only wanting to make their child "not gay". "trans the gay away" they call it. Is happening in the NHS.It would seem that the medical profession is being held to ransom by trans-activists. Nobody can speak out about it. When people challenge it via the high/supreme courts, the courts CANNOT be seen to be over-ruling the medical establishment. So this cancer within it is allowed to grow and grow. Private medical clinics conducting this are making a f'ing fortune of course.A lot of this reporting could be right wing biased. So I went "grass roots" researching and searched YouTube for examples of these children. What I found was far, far more shocking. It was very easy to find dozens and dozens of kids of various mid to late teens discussing and even giving tutorials on "how to get it done". The right things to say, how to play and prepare for the psych tests, how to bypass waiting lists and even... even contact details for private doctors online who will proscribe testosterone and puberty blockers over an online chat with anyone under the age of 18. There are trans-gender professors in America openly selling proscription HRT and PB prescription medication to minors openly. Fathers have been sent to jail in Canada for objecting to their daughter of 15 under going NRT. He was silenced, gagged, preventing from calling his daughter "she" in public and finally when he refused to comply, got sent to jail!In the UK they have shut the clinic down last month. People have hailed this as a success. However if you actually read the story, the clinic is being closed because it cannot meet demand for sexual transformation of minors so it is opening TWO brand new centres to cope with demand.People now hold "re-gender" parties for children as young as 7. Presenting them on TikTok, YouTube etc. in various sexualised and gender-ised guises IN PUBLIC to millions of peple! A recent star hit on Disney+ was a 11yo boy strutting around in drag, with fully grown drag queens, even mimicking snorting ketomine of his hand and appearing drunk or high. Has Disney been repromanded for this? No, it would clearly be anti-gay, anti-trans and anti-transvestite, so nobody says anything.That is where the front lines are on this whole thing. Not office politics.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 02:26:58 pm
content: This thread and the implications of DEI efforts on the engineering workforce is valuable (IMO).I would respectfully suggest that perhaps nudging it back towards the impacts on engineering, the workforce/jobs, and related may help to keep it productive and in-range for the site.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 02:42:08 pm
content: Any suggestions on how to successfully avoid being targeted/canceled, say because one chooses not to support current D-E-I efforts because they will not lead to the results and effects their proponents claim?I have no good suggestions myself.Dave already mentioned some cancellation attempts; hearing about known working strategies to defend oneself would be encouraging.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 02:58:17 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 22, 2022, 02:26:58 pmAgreed and appologies for my previous highlighting of the real front lines. Which are extremely remotely relevant if at all.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 03:27:48 pm
content: @Nominal AnimalTo the extent that DEI is an extension of Affirmative Action, there have been numerous lawsuits over the years that AA violated American laws against discrimination based on race. Individual plaintiffs have won on the specifics of their cases (See: Dr. Bakke decision*), but that is a very long and expensive process. Generally, the decision upholding AA as a concept has been affirmed. Once again, that issue has bubbled up, and SCOTUS has decided to visit the issue again:https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/aug/02/supreme-court-affirmative-action-harvardThe current court is considerably more conservative and textual (e.g., recent Roe decision). Time will tell.I suspect if there is any near term solution in the US, it will be by our courts and not by legislatures. Although, legislatures have has some impact follow Bakke.*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regents_of_the_University_of_California_v._Bakke

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 03:37:09 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 22, 2022, 02:42:08 pmI would be curious to hear about personal experiences of engineers being "canceled" in the workplace.I am working for a US company myself, which is encouraging diversity, non-discrimination, awareness of biases etc., on what I consider a reasonable level. But I have not witnessed any "canceling", and struggle to imagine what that would look like in the workplace. Thank you if you can illustrate that!

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 03:42:11 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 22, 2022, 02:58:17 pmHere too, but @paulca, thanks for supplying dinner conversation.The wife recently watch a documentary by Louis Theroux about it.It has been discussed on the forum before:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/life-advice-dont-dismiss-or-lose-respect-for-people/msg4279981/#topDave posted that video in this thread too.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 03:43:18 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 22, 2022, 02:42:08 pm“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.”DEI efforts mix items from both groups, IMO.For my own account, I try to direct the conversation about principle topics to be anchored in some fundamental principles,which I do fully support."I totally agree that discrimination* is bad. For that reason, I agree with you that we must evaluate each candidate or employee based on their relevant skills/abilities and contributions." If the DEI proponent suggests that's not good enough, and that we must actively discriminate against certain groups, we have an identified point of disagreement and they're welcome to take that up with HR, Legal, or my boss. I'm not at all worried about the outcome there because I support the important principles and, even if I were worried about the outcome, I'd way, way rather get fired than to discriminate against a qualified candidate or employee.For non-important topics, I try not to take a hardline approach.As above in thread, I'm 100% fine with stopping calling things "master" and "slave". I never owned a slave; no one I know was ever a slave, but it doesn't offend my engineering sensibilities to call them "leader" and "follower" or "primary" and "replica" or whatever.Likewise, it doesn't bother me to put pronouns on my Zoom name. Yes, it's blindingly obvious to anyone who has seen me or heard me speak.Worry about the things that matter (not allowing "reverse discrimination" or "tokenization" to creep into the organization's hiring and promotion practices), but don't fight every last battle or get agitated over every little thing. If someone who reads my (traditionally male) name, sees my masculine features, and hears my fairly deep voice also wants to read a "(he/his)" next to my name, so be it. If that gives comfort or solace to some others who are struggling with some aspect of their identity, those few characters of blinding obviousness in my case cause me no harm or discomfort.Overall, focusing on what matters to the workforce ("can you and will you write good software here?") and ignoring irrelevant aspects (what your chromosomal makeup, identity, or romantic relationship preferences are) seems to be the most reasonable path forward. I have friends and colleagues who are non-conforming in a variety of ways. For the co-workers, I measure their contributions as engineers based on their output as engineers. For the friends, I measure their friendship based on the same criteria I would any other friend. If I'm not going to have a romantic relationship with them, why on Earth would I care about their romantic relationship preferences? I don't care what clothes they wear, whether they wear makeup, who they sleep with, which bathroom they use, or anything else that, honestly, just doesn't affect me.* - Here, I use discrimination to mean "inappropriate discrimination". If you are interviewing to separate candidates into people who can do engineering and those who can't, that's discrimination by definition, but is proper discrimination ("recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another"). "We didn't hire/promote them as a coder because they can't code" is good discrimination. "We didn't hire/promote them as a coder because they're black [or white or Asian] [or male or female]" is bad discrimination.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 03:45:14 pm
content: The problem with this place (EEVblog) is that it's one of the few places where we can discuss difficult topics with smart, rational, and logical people. And of course discuss electronics.Regarding DEI and technology, I find it interesting that when I was growing up (during the space race -- I still have an elementary school report I did on John Glenn and his first orbital flight), young boys at least were interested in technology. I was far from the only nerd in school. And yes, girls were vastly underrepresented -- almost zero percent.Now, in spite of STEM programs and DEI, the kids seem to be much less enthusiastic about the tech fields. I sometimes help out at the local High School STEM center and the student participation is quite low. Why is this? So much has changed in the last 50 years that it's hard to identify the main factors. I do find it a bit troubling that in my experience, STEM focuses more on project management than on the underlying tech. If it were up to me, I would say to hell with the project, just learn enough to build stuff and see what happens.Another rant: STEM has become STEAM (the 'A' stands for "Arts"). While I do think that Engineering is as much an artform as a science, that's apparently not what STEAM means. I think it's a way for school Art programs (and staff) to get on the STEM gravy train, and probably helps meet the DEI goals.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 03:49:11 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 22, 2022, 03:37:09 pmLook up "James Damore" at Google.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 03:50:44 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 22, 2022, 03:37:09 pmAnother question to this respect, who got passed by over this. Meaning who applied for a job and lost out to a lesser candidate just because they belong to a minority. Or the other way round, who did not get hired even though being the better candidate but belonging to a minority.Just before I started my own company I went in for a job interview, wearing a military jacket and a bit scruffy clothes. Not sure if that costed me the job or the fact that I might still have been of a bit due to the earlier break down. I'm talking 1995 here.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 04:03:42 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 22, 2022, 02:42:08 pmIMHO the best you can really do is just smile and nod, go through the motions and write it off as just another useless meeting. Treat everyone with respect and try to avoid interacting any more than absolutely necessary with the ones that have a chip on their shoulder. Staying off of social media helps too, especially Twitter, nothing good comes from posting anything on there. If politics comes up at work, try to just not engage in the discussion.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 04:09:42 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 22, 2022, 03:37:09 pmMe too. I am a scientist myself, not an engineer, and I quit academia before I could get "canceled". More because of research funding than any sociopolitical reason; I only needed to be careful of what I said at the cafeteria. Especially the physics students lounge was quite welcoming towards all kinds of viewpoints (and it was about 50/50 male/female, not a "sausage fest", which surprised me positively). I volunteered for some Linux help there.The reason I wrote "targeted/canceled" is that I am not even perfectly sure how to define being "canceled" in the workplace.Like paulca described, I too have suffered most from beingignoredin the workplace, andoverlookedby my superiors – even to the point of having coached a cow-orker in some subject matter before a big meeting the next day, only to have the boss introduce that same person to me as "a proper expert you should look up to". Things like having done some really big projects, with absolutely zero acknowledgement about it afterwards from anyone.I've also mentioned that in the late 90s, in my early twenties, I maintained a couple of computer labs and the staff workstations in an entire university department (by invite; I did some projects there first, and the IT person there wanted me to take care of things during her maternity leave), with the head of department telling me that because she has an useless son of about my age, no matter what kind of credentials I had or whoever at the uni was ready to vouch for me, she refused to give me a budget and instead insisted I ask her, in writing, for every single replacement mouse and keyboard.So, I do claim I know perfectly well what sexist and ageist discrimination is, even though I'm ostensibly a white male. (I'm actually a sort of a pale pink, and really more Nordic than Caucasian, too. So even my own ethnicity isn't acknowledged, and is just grouped with people I really do not identify with.)There was a COO at that university who did try to "cancel" me –– stop any department from ever hiring me again, because I accidentally exposed his misuse of uni funds –– but the IT dept. was well aware of what I had achieved there, and how I was always ready to help anybody, so the IT folk just completely ignored that unlawful order. He did get fired for misuse of resources, though, a couple of years later. And in typical Finnish fashion, got a PhD chair in consolation at the same uni. Yeah, no corruption here..These are things that still affect me, and I'm really envious of those who can just smile and not give a shit. I'm too conscientious.Quote from: ebastler on August 22, 2022, 03:37:09 pmThat's good to hear. (I mean that sincerely, without any undertones.)There are many companies that have this stuff well in hand. Like I said, of D-E-I, I only object to equity; I'm definitely for non-discrimination; and I definitely believe diversity is useful and beneficial although I do not believe it more important than skill and knowledge –– that is, I disagree with "extra points", but do accept diversity as a tie breaker; and I definitely disagree performance bonuses and such given to only minority group members, as paulca described.I, too, have been skipped for reasons I cannot understand ever since high school (9th grade of comprehensive school, at 15 years old). (When I graduated, I had the highest scores ever, and they made an exception that year, limiting each student to exactly one award per person.)Even within an university, it can vary enormously between departments, as it depends more on the administration than even individual professors (chairs).As I mentioned, at U of H, the students at the physics department are quite open-minded, and I mean that in the traditional sense, not excluding any views without giving them some consideration, and it seemed to me that disagreeing on some point was seen as normal and quite acceptable; which I found refreshing.During my own student days, I did manage to get called a "dirty commie" and a "greedy capitalist" during a single day.In all, being ignored or my work overlooked, is definitely a sore point for me, and can make me react quite emotionally/explosively. It's a personal fault I'm working on. It has also made it clear to me how importantfairnessin competitive environments is.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 04:18:06 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 22, 2022, 04:03:42 pmThis is probably good advice, but the push for more and more conformance is probably likely (1984), where you are compelled to say things that you don't believe.I don't have anything to add to put up a fight against this, but I think that someone smarter than me could offer some insights. As I mentioned before, leaving a job and citing the reasons may eventually bring the focus back to the center. After all, companies can not function without employees, but surely there is a better way to make this happen?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 04:18:46 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 22, 2022, 04:09:42 pmI do agree that diversity is beneficial, but I think diversity of thought, attitude, mindset, whatever you want to call it is more important than other factors and often overlooked. Some well known tech companies talk a lot about diversity and yet they seem to hire the same personality with the same degrees from the same small handful of universities with the diversity being primarily cosmetic traits. I find it interesting that there is a bit of a paradox where a particular group of people touts the inherent advantages of diversity while the same group tends to argue that everything is social constructs and we are all the same. If everyone is the same then there is no inherent benefit to diversity.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 04:34:49 pm
content: Diversity brings live to the party, but being introvert, for me there is a line where it becomes to much. And then I reserve the right to not interact. You don't have to befriend every one in life. Private or work. You don't have to be mean and discriminate, but not interacting might be seen as such. Not interacting is as much a right as they have to be acknowledged, in my opinion.I have worked in the alternative music world so I have seen plenty of different people. Some I liked and some not. That is normal to me.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 04:55:41 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 22, 2022, 02:26:58 pmThe other thing we should, and have in this thread occasionally, consider how we DO attract more women (as an industry). I believe there will be bias still, but listening to the women in tech movement, or rather speakers for it, from actual women IN tech can reveal topics which impact women that men might not even see. These could also be things that men are not delibrately doing it and don't even know it irks them. It might even be things we would happily change and do differently.One that struck me, which re-occurred in half a dozen talks from women was in how tech is presented from an early age towards women. One commented that in high school before a career's fair, her Maths teacher mentioned that she had the aptitude of an engineer and should consider it as a career. She said her mind went blank thinking of what exactly an "engineer" was and settled on a picture of a old fat man with a beard driving a train. Thus highlighting an issue of education which has been for one reason or another prevailant for far too long.How many women WOULD have been engineers if they had been correctly sold it, correctly offered it and supported towards it, which instead had a malformed skewed limited view of what exactly STEM subjects there are.Also, we need to be careful as the gender diversity across STEM is pretty close to 50/50. Only because other areas, such as medicine and healthcare are predominantly female. I believe it is the T and the E which are the more skewed to male.What the industry needs to be very careful with however is that engineering and stem in general tend to be disciplines which highly value experience. As such they tend to have a hierarchy. While we can certainly keep efforts up to pump women into the lower end as recruits, there is a limited an finite supply of senior female engineers. We can just materialise them out of nowhere. So any deficit that engineering disipline roles cannot and should not be "Affirmative actioned". Doing so could be calculated on man/woman years of experience in higher tiers as a loss of expertise. moving out to the more extreme, the concept of the "Mass retirement" of 2019 and 2020 are very real potentials for a lot of the 45-67 year old males in the industry. A lot bailed already when the-virus hit and their pension pot was under threat. They cashed out and retired. Put too much undue pressure on that (most warmly welcomed) group, the somewhat-middle-aged, men, statistically white senior engineer and an excidus into early retirement or late career changes could put the digital and electrical infrastructure into genuine risk.One inaccuracy in "Idiocracy" is in how the lights stay on, how all the tech stays running. I don't think the "Idiocracy" of the real future looks that bright and functional in an technology pov anyway. It's similar to not knowing how WWIII will be fought just knowing the WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 05:16:31 pm
content: You are right that woman should be introduced to engineering or technical professions early on. But I guess early on means just after the cradle. Don't push the stereo type gender specific toys onto kids and see if anything changes.During my education in technical schools I only saw two woman. Was on mid level electronics school, some 40 years ago. They were a year ahead of me. One white and one black to be specific since it is about different "minorities". The white woman had to redo her last year so we ended up in the same class, so got to know her. Was fun and she was one of us, no looking down on the fact she was a woman. Despite the fact she had to redo the year she was good at most of it. Can't remember which subject she failed on before. But only two woman on 100-120 students over four years time is not very much. No idea what the ratios are today.About "Idiocracy" it was on TV a while back and I recorded it due to someone stating it was a good comedy. Was not able to watch it to the endTalking about bad acting and nonsense it scored very high. The premise somewhat ok though. The future might steer that way.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 05:25:52 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 22, 2022, 05:16:31 pmIdiocracy was largely based on a 1951 short story called "The Marching Morons" by C.M. Kornbluth. I think it has aged pretty well:https://www.gutenberg.org/files/51233/51233-h/51233-h.htm

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 05:39:45 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on August 22, 2022, 03:45:14 pmThis is a good point to bring up. The number of applicants and graduates from both genders is falling. The software industry in particular is no longer requiring IT degrees. We exhausted that pool over a decade ago.Part of this might be due to something I have felt myself as a "hobbyist" programmer. ie. the core personal interest from which I draw my strength and passion for engineering. He's bored.Why? Because the speed of software development and advancement is so vast now that almost any small personal project will appear completely contrived and boring, because every kid in the class can download an app that does just that 100 times better. Even if they select something that hasn't been done, it will be so complex and by the time a small team of student's writes it, it's old hat and you can get it FREE as an online service with a mobile app.No longer do they (aspiring engineers) actually need to bother MAKING things better themselves. They just wait for another app or service to be added to Android/Amazon/Google store.I feel it myself is different ways. Hobby projects I'd like to do, by the time I've thought them through white room and I look and do research, it's all been done before, it's already out there by company x, y, and z and most of their implementations, while sub standard are now "standards". No room for a hobby project here, waste of time.At one end, the high level coding is becoming so basic the industry of coders writing it (looking at mobile and webui devs) are barely dry behind the ears, make every single UI behave like it's on a mobile phone, completely deny that left and right click exist etc. and tell me to "shut up and deal boomer". And the quality of these apps is diabolical. It has a high attrition rate, a lot of them leave when their ideal job of being a snow boarding web designer from the cartoons turns out not to exist, or the miss conception that mobile app devs are all cool, highly regarded software engineers. They also leave when they discover it's a LOT more complicated than the university project they did.At the other end, low level coding is so complex it is usually very specific to task and area. It requires you are a specialist in that field. Like database programming or network programming, OS programming, graphical programming (games) etc. This type of person usually knows exactly what they want to do and do it long before anyone even tells them a job exists doing it.So it's either too simple to bother not just watching someone else do it on YouTube. (Like a lot of games these days, it's easier to watch someone else play it) OR it's so complex you would need to dedicate years of dedicated hobby study to even getting an embarrassingly newbie project running.We need to find where exactly the interesting stuff is and lead with it, without setting false expectations.They once tried, for a local initiative, to video our floor in work as the lively industry it was. Everyone sat silently staring into their screens, nobody spoke, nobody moved. Sadly a lot of engineers are also introverts. The producer after only 5 minutes of footage, said, "Ok, rap. It is what is is. Let's go."At the same time, having photos of "Work - Sports day" publicly in the press doesn't really help either. It might show we have a sense of humour and the company lets us out to play in the sun, just like teacher used to, but it doesn't help inspire.I'm certainly too long in the tooth and far too jaded to inspire. I'm going to have to learn for my daughters sake though. She can't even pronounce "experiment" properly yet, but she's obcessed with them, loves watching "Ryan's World" which is a kid doing kiddie science with his parents. I hope I do not fail her.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 05:56:59 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 22, 2022, 05:39:45 pmI think you are perhaps doing what many commentators seem to do today, in equating STEM with "Tech" (ugh, horrible term), in other words computers and software.But the field of science and engineering is so much more than computers. You have mechanics, chemistry, electronics, physics, biology, astronomy, geology, the scope is endless. So much to do and explore, make stuff, go outside and get close to nature, build things that do stuff, make smells and bangs, have fun!I was lucky when I was growing up in that I didn't get to see a computer until I was about 16, so my whole childhood involved consuming the library and doing as much experimentation as I could think of.If there is one thing I would suggest when promoting STEM in schools, it is to give the message that STEM is not computers. Just look around you and think of everything you encounter, use, touch or consume, from buildings, furniture, water, transport, infrastructure, fuel, vehicles, paints, plastics, food, anything man-made you can imagine. How did that stuff get designed and made? STEM. All of it, STEM. Wouldn't it be fun to be involved in that?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 06:52:39 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 22, 2022, 03:43:18 pmI take your point about choosing your battles wisely, but disagree with you about the above not being important. Those who control language are very powerful and giving into them only makes them stronger.What does stop calling things "master" and "slave" achieve? How does it help anyone? You do realise those who support this are typically white academics? I could post videos of black people complaining about this sort thing because they think it's patronising. It's also not free: time = money.How do you feel stating your pronouns helps anyone? I see it as a form of compelled speech. Those who give into it are unwillingly saying they don't have a problem with gender ideology which responsible for killing women's sports and mutilating children. The person who dreamed all of this up, John Money, was a sicko. He did an experiment on Davie Reimer a boy who had been mutilated due to a botched circumcision when he was a baby. Money decided it would be a good idea to perform gender reassignment on him and persuade his parents to raise him as a girl. It went very badly, with Reimer committing suicide when he found out when he was a teenager and his twin brother killed himself soon after.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 06:54:43 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 22, 2022, 05:56:59 pmBut you try and do any of those things today, commercially and effectively, without software. That applies to many areas/sectors, but is it not very prevalent in STEM?Anyway, overall STEM, if it's includes the medical and biological sciences is currently around 50/50. It's subjects like biology etc. which are skewed toward women. The engineering and tech side of things are struggling. I feel like I should present a slide, but google it, it should show something similar.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 07:22:32 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 22, 2022, 06:54:43 pmSoftware is a tool. Where in the past, people used slide rules, charts, calculators and notebooks, they now use software to help with the complex calculations. But the computers and software are not the goal, they are merely aids to efficient work, just as slide rules and calculators used to be.I see every day examples of people looking at the results produced by computers and misinterpreting them because they have not appreciated the fundamental theory behind the calculations. If you enroll in a STEM program at a university, you are going to use computers, but they are only going to be the side dish, or the condiment accompanying the main meal.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 07:23:28 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 22, 2022, 06:52:39 pmOf course you can find such videos. Not everyone (of any race) agrees that this is a major sticking point along the path towards equality of opportunity. We're not proposing abandoning the functional concept of devices who are in control and devices who follow. We're proposing abandoning the use of language that some people claim offense to. Just as giving in could be seen as giving power to those who agitate for the change, adamantly resisting could be seen as giving them even more power. It's a molehill. Don't get goaded into letting someone else make it into a mountain.Quote from: Zero999 on August 22, 2022, 06:52:39 pmStating my pronouns is approximately as helpful (and likewise approximately as harmful) as confirming that my username has three o characters in it.Quote from: Zero999 on August 22, 2022, 06:52:39 pmSee, now you're compelling me to state clearly and for the record that I do have a problem with that chain of events and do not support it, even though I'm willing to voluntarily confirm that I'm a man and that I have three o's in my username.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 08:04:29 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 22, 2022, 07:23:28 pmMy point is it's a slippery slope. Firstly they tell you to stop using "master-slave" terminology, then they make you give your pronouns, what's next? Perhaps the term mother is offensive to some, so you have to use the term "birthing person", maybe the doctor should refer to you as a penis person, rather than man, when you have your prostate checked? Where does it stop?I accept language changes as a natural process of evolution, but that's not what's happening here. It's forced to keep a tiny minority happy and it's mostly the privileged few sitting in their ivory towers, who are demanding it, rather than those who it's supposed to benefit.I hope you realise you're making many people feel uncomfortable when you put your pronouns in your email. I've discussed this with others at work. The worry is anyone who is woke enough to do this, won't hesitate reporting someone to HR for saying anything un-PC. By all means state your pronouns, I believe in free speech and you shouldn't be censored because it makes people uncomfortable, just beware of the fact not everyone will take kindly to it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 08:22:56 pm
content: There was a recent ad from "family planning" over here which stated that "Men too can get pregnant", with two stylized characters, one allegedly pregnant, the two being seemingly "women" with beards.Oh, and they took it very seriously that it became polemic, too. Yeah.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 09:09:50 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 22, 2022, 08:04:29 pmMy experience is it's not the minority in question actually doing the complaining. It's the cloud of virtue signalling students/hang wringers/do-gooders/exploitational media/exploitation companies who think it's the latest "Up YOU!" to "the man" to support and broadcast, it's popular, it gets views, it creates interactions, positive and negative interactions sell adverts.In universities, in fringe groups, fine. But it's leaked out somehow (social media) and needs to be re-contained. These young minds in University are opened in many ways and often run amock with fantastical ideologies or re-inventing old ideologies. This should not be discouraged. But it should be contained. Social media has allowed these radical views of a small subset of students to become a mainstream global public debate. If it was my day we would all be forcing people to be socialists and demand policies to legalise all the drugs, if the student union got it's political say. No, real violence came from it in my day, because it was CONTAINED in university to be discussed with other "opening" intelligent people, in class, in the pub, in the common room, discussion was open. Heated, but open. The world, the world's media and social media should not be exposed to that raw emerging intellect. Somehow that got missed. So now rampant, fringe, student ideologies are being spread and enforced as a kind of "ploughing of all established comprehension of humanity", turning it over.Easiest option isn't available really, or maybe it's coming and that is to wipe that smug little smile off their face and give them something a LITTLE more important to think about such as a world war. But that might mess up the rest of us a bit too. Something to make them realise they take for granted so much in the world and to stump on it ALL and criticise it, en-mass, without any academic credit or rigour or understanding of what it even means.... to reject all established understanding of gender, sex, etc.Replace Gender and Sex with "Flat Earth and Science deniers".... except these people have got POWER and that is the FRIGHTENING thing.In my day it was resistance to "the machine", "the system", refusal to be labelled, stamped, filed, categorised, classified or numbered! The fear that credit card companies would start tracking us. That forces unseen would start to try and control our birth rate and control fertility. Lots of heavy metal and lots of SciFi from the 70s, 80s, 90s touches on this. How that (or those points) aged.The absurdity is that a lot of the transphobic comments are coming from trans people, who themselves are being counter invalidated by more modern ideologies. I think we stand back and wait on it eating itself and hope it happens before we lose an entire generation of inspiring young adults to life long regret caused by a fad. I know a lot of kids who got tatoo'd young, who have them surgically removed in their 20s. What ARE we doing?I have ended up watching far too much "actual" right wing content in my research these past few days, and a lot of far left content too. I'm please to come back reporting that while I agree and can follow their points, there is smoke where there is fire, I can still smell bullshit off bullshit. Sky New Australia in particular, present stories more "default left" media wouldn't, but they also post a load of utter garbage in the same light. Unfortunately, nobody is going to take people seriously, when their line up is "Child gender mutilation, anti-science BS, anti-medicine BS, anti-vaxx BS. However, I found BBC Newsnight and other documentaries, so I'm comfortable it is surfacing and might get heard by the remaining sane.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 09:12:04 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 22, 2022, 08:22:56 pmIt's true.Some women have penises, some men have vaginas,according to someone who gets paid more than me.The idea is gender is a social construct, not related to DNA or sexual organs, so a female can transition to a man, then get pregnant.There was a scandal in the NHS awhile ago which involved training midwives to care for males, including catheterisation. There were a few videos and articles which went viral.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 09:55:52 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 22, 2022, 09:09:50 pmWere there any right wingers at university, or was it all a left wing echo chamber? I didn't go to university. I did an apprenticeship so wouldn't know. We didn't discuss politics at college much but most people seemed fairly centrist, probably a little right leaning, if anything.It does seem somewhat paradoxical, that those who are in favour of extreme left wing policies, are also the most wealthy and have the most to lose if they were ever implemented.Both the far left and right are anti-science.This last 2 years has taught me to be more questioning of the mainstream narrative. I don't believe in conspiracy theories, but I do smell a rat when doctors and scientists get cancelled for saying things which run counter to the accepted version of the truth. I know there's a lot of anti-vax BS, but there are genuine reasons to be sceptical about the most recently developed vaccines, especially repeat doses and in those who are at low risk. I think a big problem is being anti-anti-vax, as well as the large sums of money changing hands. Now I try to not dismiss someone as a quack for having a different point of view. I listen to what they have to say and why the believe it's true. Is there any evidence? Is it because they feel downtrodden? I try to give them the benefit for the doubt.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 10:45:27 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 22, 2022, 09:12:04 pmThere was also this fun event:https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/apr/14/two-inmates-impregnated-transgender-inmate-all-wom/And getting a bit far into the transformation:https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-a-transgender-woman-could-get-pregnant/

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 11:51:07 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 22, 2022, 05:56:59 pmI've only got a datapoint comprising a few days helping the High School STEM kids debug their projects, but computers and software weren't the primary focus.The class was building submersible ROVs, using mostly off-the-shelf Arduino-compatible stuff for the motor controllers and grappling gear. They had video cameras too, but I don't know what the interface was. The programming was quite basic, mostly cookbook stuff reading joystick positions. Much of their work was in the mechanical area, waterproofing, etc. So I felt pretty good about the technology mix there... I volunteered when they were having hardware problems -- turned out they didn't know how to solder properly, and had not a clue about proper grounding -- the ground for the joystick potentiometers has the motor current running through it, and stuff like that. I did my best to help them figure it out, but since a deadline was looming I ended up saying "OK, here's what's going on, pay attention to how I fix it." a lot.So I ended up having mixed feelings about it.I am thrilled that these kids are at least doing *something* and are getting their hands dirty with real hardware and low-level software.I am a bit disappointed that Ohm's Law wasn't even mentioned, but I suppose if we're trying to get kids "hooked on tech" then this can come later.The emphasis on project management, including assigned management roles, seems out of place at this early stage. I can accept that this isn't "Learning Electricity / Electronics / Software", but it shouldn't be "Project Management 101" eitherI believe the goal is to interest and prepare kids for STEM. Some of the kids I saw seemed to be interested, but there were so few of them!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 12:39:29 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on August 22, 2022, 11:51:07 pmThat's good to hear they were doing fun stuff with real hardware.QuoteI would agree. It is appropriate when working on the capstone project of an engineering degree, for example, but not at the introductory level when getting children interested.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 09:27:53 am
content: Quote from: paulca on August 22, 2022, 09:09:50 pmReally, the issue is that it got out of those small social circles. Now majority of Hollywood is putting up this woke garbage, where message first is the importance for a movie. Disney executives have talked about this on zoom meetings that got leaked to the public. At this point it is social engineering, not entertainment.And big tech also got a huge issue with extreme leftism.Now, I don't give a damn about American politics. What I care about is these people are in decision making positions, where a small fraction of them is going to make their decision based on political ideology, and not merit. I don't have to tell you that if FB or Google wants to hide something, just a tiny tweak of the algorithm is going to affect things on the long term. But they are not doing these tiny tweaks, they are waging an all out war on "offensive content" and "misinformation". The Stasi and the KGB wasn't this good at manipulating the masses. Humanity invents AI and the first thing we do with it is to program it to manipulate people to rig elections?I want political checks and balances to continue. In the entire free world.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 10:28:25 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 23, 2022, 09:27:53 amIf you equate donations to the Democrats with "extreme leftism", then there is either something wrong with U.S. politics or with your understanding thereof.By the way -- how can that chart list "employeedonations" by company?! Do individuals who donate to a party have to declare which company they work for?!Edit: Oh look, there's also a chart in the same study which shows what thecompaniesdonated. These are the donations which corporate can control, via the political action committees, in my understanding. Nicely balanced between the parties. Why didn't you include that in your post?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 10:49:44 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 23, 2022, 10:28:25 amYes, there is something seriously wrong with US politics.And that's 2014, if you would take that image from todayAnd the republicans now an extreme right wing party.I'm against all radicalization, since I was born in a communist country, which then turned into a failed state, I know too damn well, that you have to keep the politicians in check. But the public in the US is asking for even more radicalization from the parties.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 10:56:46 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 23, 2022, 10:28:25 amNot sure but believe the employees can deduct these gifts from their income, so have to declare them on a tax form to be eligible for such a deduction.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 11:02:48 am
content: We all know US politics is bullshit... and hot things are hot... let's not stray off-topic.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 11:23:45 am
content: I think politics are related, but not to the extend tszaboo brought on.The question is where does the D.E.I gets it support from. Who is responsible for proper control in what is wrong and what is right in respect to the rules of hiring. Is it the politicians responsible for legislation or is it the global media (Journalism, social media, etc) just forcing them to make improper rules.And also why can't they make air tight regulations that show clearly what needs to be done, instead of always very open to some interpretation, and leading to many different implementations of said rules.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 11:33:59 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 23, 2022, 11:02:48 amHow do you suggest we discuss identity politics, without politics?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 11:56:48 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 23, 2022, 11:33:59 amWe could also all agree that the general poltics side of it is done, and just keep it to engineering industry related matters and/or personal stories and advice going forward maybe?The OP is after all after advice and is sharing his personal story.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 11:59:17 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 23, 2022, 11:56:48 amGood luck getting those worms back into the can...

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 12:01:06 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 23, 2022, 11:56:48 amOk, fair enough.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 12:08:32 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 23, 2022, 11:59:17 amThe other option is calling it done and locking the thread. I don't want to have to do that, as many posts are very insightful and helpful for the OP and many others. #As always it only takes one or two people to ruin it though and get into a tiff that goes on for pages.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 04:07:01 pm
content: I wonder how large part of the objection to D-E-I is that it is never discussed, just adopted as axiomatically correct.For whatever reason, it seems that people are adopting ideas and concepts and completely rejecting any kind of examination of them.We will never be able to discuss say intersectionalism or the difference between equity and equality, because the willingness to examine the concepts is an even worse offense than simply rejecting them. (Intersectionalism is related here because it is precisely the origin for equity replacing equality; and many of its proponents openly admit that they believe meritocracy, any kind of individual merit based systems, are their biggest enemy, worse than any oppression per se.)To simplify a bit, it is easier to be a bigot, because then only your values differ from those of the D-E-I proponents. If you demand meritocratic treatment, equality among individuals, and reject tribality, you violate their entire ideological basis, and are therefore a worse enemy.For the same reasons I value diversity, I value discussions and arguments over important matters. I know that if I was a ruler, I would be a despot; and that if I only explain how I see things, and let the majority rule (you know, democracy), then the results are likely to be better because the extremes tend to be "filed off" and something that a big majority can accept, will be done. (Roughly speaking; power and money having such strong corruptive tendencies, and whatnot.)Therefore, I find this rejection of rational, critical discussion about such core tenets and axioms, a deadly risk.Companies and most organisations tend to have a hierarchical structure, which makes them at the same time more and less vulnerable. More, because only a small number of executives need to be swayed, to sway the complete company. Less, because if you have good executives (meaning hungry for money and power, but still team players and somewhat controllable by the board or owners so they won't simply sell the company for their personal benefit), they will be swayed more by commercial reality than the social one. I know very few executives outside Finland, so I don't know where on that swayability spectrum typical ones lie, and it would be interesting to hear your views.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 04:27:40 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 23, 2022, 04:07:01 pmSometimes it is discussed, and reasons are given. For example, having a diversity policy helps to maximize the pool of candidates when hiring. Also, having a diverse workforce helps to bring more perspectives to product design and development, and it helps to reflect more customer viewpoints and avoids narrow stereotyping, therefore potentially broadening product appeal. (It could help to avoid, for example, the famous automatic hand soap dispenser that only recognizes lightly pigmented skin.)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 04:28:13 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 23, 2022, 10:49:44 amI largely blame social media for this. The algorithms create huge ideologically aligned echo chambers and the net effect of this is a positive feedback loop where any ideology gets more and more extreme and people get less and less exposed to dissenting views. Unfortunately short of somehow killing social media I don't see a way to change this.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 04:31:02 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 22, 2022, 05:16:31 pmNobody pushed gender specific toys on me as a kid. I wasn't interested in most toys, instead I was fascinated by lightbulbs and electricity since my earliest memories, in fact my first word was "light" and I still to this day tend to look up and see what sort of lights are in a room. I also naturally gravitated toward machines, cars, trains, airplanes, engines, I think it's obvious that some people are hardwired to have an interest in some things over others.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 04:32:58 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 23, 2022, 04:28:13 pmIt's also weirdly contradictory, since from most perspectives the Democratic party seems to be an alternative Republican party with an identity crisis.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 04:35:57 pm
content: I guess a really good question is while it is pleasant to believe a meritocracy exists, we have to accept a huge amount of where people get in life is justdamn luck.And I'm not just talking about the initial luck of e.g. having good parents or the right genetics or the right teachers, I mean throughout life, you will always have people where probabilities have lined up just right to produce the best outcomes.For instance, I think it's difficult to believe that e.g. Bill Gates was a particularly skilled programmer, and that's why he became, at one point, the world's richest man. No, it's more likely that he was just in the right place at the right time many, many times over. He won the life-lottery, multiple times.That being said, I do not think this disposes of the idea of a meritocracy existing; it is reasonably obvious that those who are most successful did not achieve that by *just luck*, merely it is what accelerated their outcome fromgoodtoexcellent. Though, to counter this, you have individuals who have earned their position through nothing but luck. To use an apolitical example, the Queen of England cannot have been particularly skilled to end up as monarch, she was just born into the right family. There are plenty of other examples of meritless positions.Can we ever claim to have a true meritocracy when meritless positions exist?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 04:44:16 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 23, 2022, 04:35:57 pmThis is true, but if you look at history, many monarchs have been bad at the job and have been failures with a short tenure. It might be argued that if kings and queens had been selected on merit rather than on right of succession there might have been fewer bad ones.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 04:46:21 pm
content: I think a meritocracy is a noble goal, and we must simply accept that luck will always play a part. No matter what system one has there will always be a luck component. Sometimes a person will do everything right and things still won't work out, other times someone ends up in the right place at the right time and something falls into their lap, that's just part of life. Some people are born smarter, some better looking, some in better locations, some have better personalities and make friends with the right people, there's no way to change any of that, it just is.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 04:50:06 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 23, 2022, 04:31:02 pmI don't remember that much of my early years, but do know that I also had an interest in electrics. Maybe because my dad was an electrician and we got all kind of technical toys at some point. One recollection will shock most parents nowadays if it would happen. My brother and I were playing around a bit with small metal rods, wires and here it comes and extension lead. I was poking with a metal rod in one of the holes, while my brother stuck a bit of wire in the other hole. We were sitting on an insulated surface, so no problem so far. Until my brother touched me with the wire. Definitely not a nice feeling, but it did not drive me away from the field

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 05:02:04 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 23, 2022, 04:46:21 pmOnly when back stabbing is called a skill then meritocracy was there to help many to the top. There are lots of people that force their luck. This too is a lesson learnt from history. How did some become kings in the first place and only held on with firm ruling. Most often over the backs of many good people.How many managers only skills are a loud voice or a brown nose for that matter. Also a way to work yourself to the top.If it was really about some technical skills alone, many of us would be the millionaires.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 05:09:31 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 23, 2022, 04:35:57 pmThis is hugely true, and those of us who have been lucky should never forget it.Engineering-related: I have friends who are probably smarter than me, and have worked harder than me in the same sector, but their companies/products crashed and burned while mine was a spectacular success. The difference was marketing, sales, particular market niche, backing, timing, and a very large amount of luck. I had very little to do with any of that -- I was given the task of building a team and developing a product. I am quite proud of the job we did -- we definitely weren't the weak link in the chain. But a chain we were.I was talking with a friend the other day about the effects of technology, and how good ideas can have bad results. I reminded him that we live in a chaotic world, and told him about the Ray Bradbury story "A Sound of Thunder", where a time-traveler to the age of dinosaurs accidentally steps on a butterfly, resulting in huge changes in the present. (On the same topic, "The Simpsons" has a funny episode where Homer, while attempting to repair a toaster, accidentally creates a time machine.)I then pointed out that every day we are (virtually) stepping on butterflies. You never know exactly what's going to happen as a result of your action (or inaction). Of course this doesn't mean that we should do obviously stupid things, and the saying "You make your own luck" is to some extent true. But it's all a bit humbling.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 05:19:27 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 23, 2022, 04:07:01 pmAs I have watched various arguments on this topic, it seems that when the term 'equity' is used, it means equality of outcome. This gets stuck in my mind because it goes flatly against 'equality', in my mind equality of opportunity. Equality of outcome automatically supersedes the tenet of merit, in the case of job performance.QuoteMoney is not evil, but the love of money and power often corrupts.There is(was) a reason for the heirarchy being setup this way and it was to support the company to move forward into stability in the business world and to fend off issues that might trip up the company in making a profit, you know... capitalism, the system that allowed everyone involved to be pulled out of the wretchedness of starvation and poverty. IMO, this dystopia of DEI and other destructive ideologies that are now popping up, may topple capitalism and there will be mass famine in the world, which leads to wars and destruction. History teaches this, but we are doomed to repeat, seems like.Don't get me wrong, in the true sense of inclusiveness and diversity, I totally agree and practice same, but not at the cost of 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'. As far as 'equity' is concerned, change it to equality, as in equality of opportunity and we could start making some headway into solving some of the issues.Since I am somewhat conscientious, which means that I lean a bit to the right, my ideas are shouted down by the ones who are arguing these ideologies. I have leaned more and more this way over the years, seems like most everyone will eventually move a little more to the right as they age and see the reality of the consequences of bad decisions, based on ideology. Doesn't make me all knowing, it just means that I have noticed that I benefit more as I have gotten older by practicing this axiom as my POV has changed. This places me back to my previous statement about everything boils down to individual merit being the way forward.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 05:21:27 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 23, 2022, 04:27:40 pmThis I don't understand. Isn't it more important to getgoodcandidates instead ofmanycandidates?Or is the idea that as long as you have sufficient numbers of candidates, some of them will do?I have the same problem with the premise of StackOverflow, where the idea is that the most popular answer is likely the correct one. There is no proof of that, it's just an assumption, and it actually looks like easy wrong answers are much more popular than harder correct answers; the popularity itself skewing the most voted answers towardseasinessinstead ofcorrectness.Similarly, by making sure you have lots of candidates, you are NOT making sure you have good candidates: only that you have lots of them. According to some studies, those with better than average skills and experienceavoidsuch openings. So, by making sure you have lots and lots of candidates, you may actually be also cutting out the most skilled and experienced candidates. Is that rational? Only when you consider everyone interchangeable representatives of some group. I do not.Quote from: IanB on August 23, 2022, 04:27:40 pmThose have nothing to do with D-E-I, and everything to do with ensuring the business works. It's also exactly why I've done my best work in a team where we had very different viewpoints, and only slightly overlapping domains of core knowledge: such a team can cover a wider range than any single person.Please, do remember that you don't need to convince any of us that having a workplace with individuals from different backgrounds is a good thing. We already know that and agree. We've also agreed that inclusion, accepting any individual regardless of their social attributes, is a good thing. Both of these things can be shown to help create better products, and make a more interesting workplace. They do not make up for lack of knowledge, skill, or experience, but when the necessary knowledge and skill and experience is there, the next thing to look for is diversity and inclusion. Not because it's morally or ethically right, but because it can be shown to lead to better products and processes, given good enough administration.It is the equity (equality of outcome), quotas, and tribalist attitudes, that are invariably claimed to be necessary for D-E-I,without discussion.Even you yourself picked topics that are obviously useful for a company to consider, and then justclaimedthey somehow support D-E-I.I do not agree. I claim that the described actions are useful in any case, but that when it comes to D-E-I, they are too often associated with the tribalist/classist "we only award minority group members and females, because we're diverse and inclusive" that negates any positive benefits; and that it is this association that is axiomatic and outside any criticism.Of course, that leads to one of the strategies a good company PR person can adopt: just do business as before, but describe all actions using the D-E-I -speak.(I couldn't do that myself, because I really, really hate misleading people like that, even when the purpose is a positive one. But I can see how it would make sense for a business to adopt that; it could be the least risky option.)

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 05:31:40 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 23, 2022, 05:21:27 pmIanB doesn't have to convince anyone who is still reading page 11 of this thread; that's true. But I believe that people aren't born knowing that diversity of background and experience leads to greater lateral thinking and better products.To me, the fact that the dose makes the poison is a substantial part of the difficulty of debating these topics. The optimum amount of DEI awareness/participation is neither zero nor infinite. If person A believes we've done enough, person B may experience that as thinking that person A thinks the right amount is zero. Conversely, when person B says we need to do more, person A can assume that person B thinks the right amount is infinite.(I completely agree with your equality of opportunity vs outcome points.)

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 05:35:51 pm
content: Slightly besides the topic, but certainly related in the long run.In the Dutch news today some worry was expressed about illiteracy in the Netherlands. 2.5 million people of 16 and older, about 18% of the Dutch population, have problems with reading, writing and calculus. A minority that will need inclusion in the work force. Good for the end result I doubt it. Does it show that education is failing, most likely.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 05:38:41 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 23, 2022, 05:21:27 pmUp to a point...We also have to consider how an individual affects the team dynamics. Some people, while perhaps being brilliant, have such poisonous personalities that nobody else wants to work with them. I've had to deal with this kind of problem, and sometimes we can put the difficult case in their own bubble, alone or with a few others who can tolerate the situation But other times we just have to terminate their employment. Or, if we can spot it in time we just don't hire them.Of course there's a continuum from easy to impossible, and most of us manage to get along quite well. I am also aware that "team dynamics" can be a cover for racism / sexism / etc.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 05:49:27 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 23, 2022, 05:21:27 pmI think you are being willfully obtuse here. You have a pool to choose from. If you artificially restrict the size of the pool, it is possible you might have excluded the best choice. For example, suppose some hypothetical conservative company in prior decades were to pre-filter all the resumes and only keep the ones for males under 40 with western sounding names? Don't you think they would have a strong chance of missing out on some really good people?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 06:11:27 pm
content: Quote from: tpowell1830 on August 23, 2022, 05:19:27 pmYes, exactly; and that is precisely why 'equity' is used instead of 'equality'.It is a very deliberate, very careful replacement. Do not think for a second that it could just be changed to 'equality', so we could agree, because the moment you do, it completely eradicates the underlying intersectionalist/tribalist idea that is the true purpose of why this is being pushed. Try, and you'll be a bigger enemy than even the most racist bigot.Quote from: tpowell1830 on August 23, 2022, 05:19:27 pmIf we had time and space to delve into it really deeply, we'd find out that it is not actually money or power itself, but the ease of applying them, and the temptation of applying them for personal short-term gain and completely ignoring everything else. Most humans do not like to think; they just have to, in order to survive.This also means that having a very competitive, very power-hungry persons in your executive team, can be a positive thing. You just have to contractually make sure they are thecompany's own monsters, and not just monsters that happen to stay with the company for a while. And you must pick ones that can be leaders, instead of accidentally eating your workforce for dinner.Quote from: IanB on August 23, 2022, 05:49:27 pmNo, I can assure you I am not. Yes, I agree that it is crucially important to reach all candidates that would be acceptable for the task, and that's not easy.Quote from: IanB on August 23, 2022, 05:49:27 pmDon't be silly, of course they would miss out of majority of suitable candidates. My point is, any company that is stupid enough to shoot themselves in the foot, is already dying. You cannot compete in todays global economy and marketplace, if you hobble your own workforce like that; and any company that did something as stupid as that ought to fail rather quickly. You do not need to teach successful executives to not do that, because they already know that it would be a waste of resources; it would be the equivalent of rejecting profit.Let me throw the question back to you: Do you seriously think any decades-old company istodaypre-filtering resumes to keep only the males under 40 with western sounding names? I do not, exactly because they're learned how business works. If they hadn't, they'd gone under already.It may have been possible a few decades ago when there was much less competition –– remember, nowadays you compete against every other company on the planet, basically; not just those nearby –– but for sure isn't tenable today, not for long. (It may be possible for a small garage that has a loyal customer base and zero growth and basically zero margin, or something similar, but they will go under whenever someone sensible starts a competing business.)

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 06:13:31 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 23, 2022, 05:49:27 pmNobody here will suggest that restricting otherwise qualified individuals because of  is a good thing. I think the objection is to artificially *inflating* the size of the pool, by reducing the entry requirements for certain classes of people.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 07:33:14 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on August 23, 2022, 06:13:31 pmIf the entry requirements are strictly focused on the needed skill set, there would not be a problem one would think. For a technical job I could see English speaking and writing as a requirement, which in turn rules out possible minorities. Is that a good reason to force hiring them anyway, and then have to pay for them learning English, because otherwise it won't work? Sure if the candidate has a good or better fit for the other skills it might pay off.I'm not in the market for work so don't know what job adverts look like nowadays, but would be very surprised if there was mentioning of do not apply when you are a woman, or gay, or trans gender. That would be discrimination.But for inflating the pool of applicants it would mean lower the required skill set, and how is that of value when you need a trained FPGA engineer and you lower it to "if you know something about electronics just apply". (Over exaggerating to get a point across)

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 08:36:34 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 23, 2022, 04:27:40 pmHow?Any hiring policy aside from the following:Quoteisby definition discriminatorybased on arbitrarily chosen characteristics. How doesQuoteimprove your hiring pool?edit: Modified font size to be seen as "more calm" where it was meant for emphasis only.This is basic statement logic. You are literally trimming an all inclusive statement and stating that it's more inclusive.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 08:46:39 pm
content: Shouting is the last resort of those who don't have an argument.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 08:49:43 pm
content: Can we calm it down please.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 08:53:29 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 23, 2022, 05:49:27 pmIn this fictional company, the HR department is mostly made up of strawmen I assume?Quote from: IanB on August 23, 2022, 08:46:39 pmWas meant as emphasis and kind of "Please look at what you've actually wrote. Really, really look at it. Do you not see the problem?"

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 09:41:37 pm
content: Quote from: daqq on August 23, 2022, 08:53:29 pmNo, I don't. It seems unlikely that any company overtly filters resumes these days, especially given all the anti-discrimination laws. But people apparently are concerned about unconscious bias, such that they think its worth talking about it. For sure, all the policies and training materials are most likely for legal protection and compliance, to avoid falling foul of the law, but there is still an element of cultural awareness involved.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 09:56:58 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 23, 2022, 06:11:27 pmYou may be underestimating the sheer inertia of large corporations. It seems as if almost every major corporation, at least a few years ago, had some sort of diversity quota program, it was extremely common almost to the point of becoming a meme.Yes it will eventually bite them if it impacts that talent pool, but that could take a very long time.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 10:04:10 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 23, 2022, 05:49:27 pmI agree with your argument. This is not what we have an issue with. The issue is diversity quota, which has been documented several times, that it is happening. How about BBC:https://www.cineuropa.org/en/dossiernewsdetail/3372/398580/Being an actor is also a job. How about the EU corporate board quota:https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-08/eu-set-to-adopt-gender-quota-requirement-on-corporate-boards#These sort of quotas go directly against merit and choosing the best candidate.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 10:08:17 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 23, 2022, 09:56:58 pmA friend of mine is a fairly senior manager of a very large, very well known software company. He told me a while back that they have an official policy that he cannot hire a white male unless he can demonstrate that he tried to find a qualified diversity candidate. Bonuses are in some way tied to the level of diversity on the teams, with "diversity" meaning specifically race and gender. The company I work for has a similar policy in that people of certain races and gender are given a shortcut to the head of the line in the interviewing process.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 11:19:38 pm
content: QuoteAlthough a straight, white actor isn't allowed to act other than in a straight, white part. Non-white LBGT++ actors are OK in any role, though, even straight, white ones.

author: wn1fju
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 11:25:00 pm
content: Many years ago I worked at a company who was interviewing for a software position. We interviewed two candidates, one of which was a minority. Turns out that in the months it took our company to go through the hiring process, the funds dried up, a hiring freeze was enacted, and we didn't extend an offer to either one of them.The minority candidate then filed a complaint with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the USA federal agency that enforces civil rights actions in the workplace. A representative for the EEOC came to our company to take depositions.The representative interviewed the head of our software development group and asked straight blank, "Do you discriminate when hiring?" Our software guy responded, "hell, yes I discriminate." The EEOC agent smiled as he thought to himself that he had a live one here and said, "What do you mean you discriminate." The software guy looked him straight in the eye and said, "I discriminate because I hire the best candidate."That was the end of the EEOC complaint, at least as far as our company goes. I have no idea what happened with the disgruntled candidate.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 11:41:32 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 23, 2022, 10:08:17 pmThe problem here is that when you have policies like that then it becomes very hard to do the usual thing you should do when hiring people in that if you have two reasonably equally qualified candidates then you pick the one you like the most based on "the vibe", and how well you think their personaility will fit in with the team etc. If one meets the diversity requirement and one doesn't, then it becomes harder to justify the one you liked better if they happen to be outside that diversity requirement.This become especially more relevant with graduates as they have more of less pretty much the same qualifcations and (lack of) experience, so it's very often simply who got along with the best.It quicky becomes blatant sexual and racial discrimination, but that's the entire point of "positive discrimination".Sometimes it's good, like having female only gyms for those that want that. But problmes arise when you try and implement it everywhere just because you can.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 05:40:14 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 23, 2022, 10:04:10 pmLooked at the mentioned article and thought "the fight is about equal rights and opportunities" with the emphasis on equal but the demanded quota of 40% woman is still not equal. Further more it states "non-executive director" positions, so executive director staff is still free of it.They do quote “There are plenty of women qualified for top jobs: they should be able to get them.” which indicates the jobs need to be filled with qualified women, not just women.In a way it is sad that legislation is needed to force the world into some equality.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 07:54:22 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 23, 2022, 09:56:58 pmTrue. I did not consider the Pareto effect on the overall output, in a large organization. (That is, something like 20% of workers produce 80% of the results. So, if you have a fifth to a quarter of really capable workers, and the organization is large enough so they do not clearly see themselves as carrying the rest on their backs, the rest could basically do nothing with a minor impact on overall productivity. It's when you lose those capable workers when you crash.)However, I still stand behind my claim that no owner would let an executive limit the talent base to say males under 40 with western sounding names, because that obviously excludes too many productive employees for no reason other than that executives social preferences. Maybe in a family-owned business?But in most Western countries that kind of discrimination is already illegal; definitely so here. (Only "positive" discrimination, i.e. discrimination against white male Finns, is legal in Finland. Even though our constitution says every Finnish citizen is equal. Some are just more equal than others, I guess.)

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 08:33:41 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 24, 2022, 05:40:14 amSo maybe the assumption is that "qualification only is required to so the job" is wrong.Take for example a used car salesmen. The qualifications needed for that is let's say elementary school or high school diploma. Would you hire someone based on qualifications alone? Or are soft skills are necessary?How about disagreeableness as a necessity to become a CEO of a company? You need to be able to negotiate deals, and be able to say "no. Being a CEO or board of director requires this personality trait, and by the looks of it, a lot of it. Studies show that 12% of CEOs show psychopathic traits, and something like 80% of psychopaths are men.I put the relevant statistics below, that explains why the difference. It's a small difference in the distribution, resulting a huge difference at the extremes. And that's where you hire CEOs, engineers, oil rig workers, but also at the other end nurses or elementary school teachers.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 09:04:31 am
content: A controversial view point, but the problem with diversity and equa(l)ity is they are can be mutually exclusive or at least contradictory.The fundamental problem is you cannot say that woman as a demographic have differences in skills based on gender. Even if that is true (when inclusive of upbringing and cultural alignments). Even if you can prove that with study after study after study.So IF you are looking for a particular skill set, picking a woman over a man, may actually BE selecting the right candidate for the job. But you are unable to do so.This over-arching issue with this is, it's a campaign to make INVALID any point of diversity. We are being told that by having a diverse employee base, the diversity will benefit you. But HOW? If we are picking up latent skills by diversifying our employee base, what are those latent skills, where do they come from and if we want more of them where do we look? It's a bit hand wavey. Let's start trying to concrete define WHY it improves the work force and allow us to select for those qualities? Or.... is that what the world is afraid of?I mean there is no point hirering a diverse work force, if they then install a set of corporate values where NONE of those diversity factors are allowed to have the slightlest bearing on anything for fear of discrimination and non-inclusive work culture.Either that or make all interviews double blind with no face to face and voices played by actors.However, this won't work, because people are not stupid and we are playing with many millions of years of evolution and I'd expect most people would work out the gender of the other party fairly quickly. Thus, even if we did do it completely black-box, blind it would not remove the accusation of selection bias based on gender.Also, lets play parallel to other sectors. Nursing is allegedly 90% female. Health Care in general is something like 78% women. What is happening there? Is nursing turning away women and artificially expanding their applicant pool and intake to 50/50? I don't see it, do you? (Sarcasim: Are MEN being subconsciously biased OUT of the workforce!? It's a war on men I say, it's discrimination, clearly the nursing profession is profiling us, it's a bunch of matriarchically totalitarian bigots. We should FORCE them to employ 50% men!)What about "pair" hirering, as an extreme example of "cancelled out" discrimination. For every man a company hirers for a position, they must hirer a woman for the same position and v.v.. Of course there are single position roles, but that can be tweaked. That pretty much puts an X through the whole gender discrimination thing entirely. It would be interesting to see the results, as long as the review process was conducted openly and fairly to see who rises, who falls, who leaves, who stays, who excels. However, if 70% of the women subsequently leave stating they just didn't enjoy it, the message will be put that it's because of men and we didn't like women invading our space and we drove them away.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 09:31:28 am
content: I remember getting into a heated argument with a senior engineer over a projects direction. There were many points we didn't see eye to eye on, we worked out most of those were because of management directive, not engineering decision. But one we continued to see in two completely different ways.My point was, if the goal is working software and the primary tools we have are the people we have, then we should keep the project simple as possible to allow best development based on the tools/people you have.The fact that my own engineering methodology is one of make it as simple as it can be and only as complex as it has to be, did not align with his was part of the problem, he was of the mindset that every problem should be infinitely expanded in complexity to try and make it more and more generic, abstract and extensible. My problem with that approach is it creates horrible, generic, abstract, academic code which excludes 90% of engineers with less than 5 years of strong OOP working. It makes the code hard to follow and those lower level OOP abstractions should be wrapped tightly in a separately managed framework component and the engineers using that framework are the customers of the ones writing it. This balances the two off each other in my view.However it does demonstrate were a "practical" engineer will include people factors in the methodology used to progress. Simply because, it's completely undeniable that without the people, you have nothing.Pure engineering, for engineerings sake, ie, engineering a problem until you simply cannot find another single thing you can add, is best kept in university and hobby space. We have work to do. Of course that does not mean through away the vast majority of engineering standards or anything, just focusing on "working software", instead of "academically correct engineering", requires you include the people part of the equation.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 09:39:11 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 24, 2022, 08:33:41 amSure you have a point there, but there are still women capable to do the job and should be given a fair chance.The need to be able to say "no" could be seen as a skill. I, a heterosexual white male, did not have it in my skill set for a long time. It was one of the reasons I got a burn out long ago. There are other skills I lack to become a CEO, and I now that. And maybe that is the problem in this world. That people don't know their limitations and want what is not in reach and then start to moan about it.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 09:44:40 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 24, 2022, 09:39:11 amI'm not a phylosopher, a historian or a sociologist, but what you said, to me, describes exactly the problem with advertising "equity". If we have equity, there is nothing stopping village idiots being CEOs.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 09:45:08 am
content: Quote from: paulca on August 24, 2022, 09:04:31 amThat will only solve the woman/man gender problem, but to fulfill all of them you need many equal positions. Just search google for "known genders". Amongst others you get this onehttps://www.medicinenet.com/what_are_the_72_other_genders/article.htm

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 09:50:19 am
content: On the economics of equity in the workplace. "Equal job", "Equal pay".What will happen is you will see roles with a hierarchy subdivide into many smaller roles, Class 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,7 8, 9 Engineer. Class 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Senior engineer. All of which will be a ladder of fixed pay bands. Instead of arguing your point for a salary bump, you just start arguing you point for a bump up the scale. It still won't do anything to help the distribution between those grades/classes/bands. It will just move the problem around (The Public toilet roll effect)tm.Then those quarterly/yearly reviews will become a warren of metrics and KPIs and SMART scoring to try and show it's "blind", which will just make everyones life even more hell, cause a bunch of people to leave the industry...

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 09:55:53 am
content: Quote from: paulca on August 24, 2022, 09:31:28 amA very good methodology to adhere. The "KISS" principle.A small example of what I experienced as a manager. There was a project that needed several different modules to make a product. Within the team an argument started about the language to write it in. C or C++. I myself like C and can write all I need with it, but there was one team member who kept insisting that C++ was far superior over C and should be used. My ruling was, "you can write your part in C++ as long as you properly comment and document what you make" Same message to the other members, use the language of the two you like the most and make sure we get something working. Problem was solved and a working product was created.Could have forced it to be C only but might have got crap all from the one with the C++ chip on his shoulder.Did not do managerial work long because it did not agree with me that well. Can work with others but rather work alone

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 10:03:35 am
content: Quote from: paulca on August 24, 2022, 09:50:19 amThat is something riddled with problems. Some will argue years at the job should count because it is experience points. So they demand a pay rise every year. A new comer to the same job will start at the entry level and get less. Doing the same job for less pay.So no matter how many roles you invent it will never solve the problem of equality. And it can't because we are not equal, we are individuals with some similarities but mostly differences.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 10:03:43 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 23, 2022, 10:08:17 pmSo the management tries to enforce diversity by discriminating white males.Maybe white males should start suing those companies for discrimination.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 10:09:11 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 24, 2022, 09:55:53 amInteresting to hear. I am being politely "herded" towards management. I stated quite a while ago that I would like to remain firmly on the "technical ladder", which every company I've worked in has had, the 'technical practices ladder' and the 'management ladder'. You are of course free to hop either way, if you can meet the requirements.In the new company (we got bought a year ago). Seem to blur this a lot, by attaching company values to roles and even as you go up the technical ladder, management topics like "delivery contract awareness, commercial awareness, team leadership, people management, business stakeholder meeting involvement, business case documentation".... etc. So at the level of senior architect you need to basically be pen pushing an agile team or several, while spending the rest of your time in management meetings on contracts, commercials and delivery of said teams, with net 0% time actually available to technically involve yourself enough in those teams day-2-day to even provide technical mentorship, except in the broadest academic sense.I can work WITH people. I can drive people towards a technical goal. I can mentor people. I love mentoring people, I love passing on information, knowledge, skills, experience. I love broadening people and making them better engineers. But, I can't MANAGE people. I can't manage myself! My private life is a complete bomb site, my profressional self management can best be described as "How did I get to where I am?". I forget things, I over context switch when given more than 2 tasks of equal priority, I hate deligating tasks I don't know how to do! I hate estimating, I hate being timeboxed, I hate that management do NOT understand that engineering is not a mechanical machine you put requirements in the top, pull a handle a fixed number of times and a product pops out. We don't know how long it's going to take, because we've never done it before. If we HAD of done it before we would have 'canned' the code as a library and written patterns so we don't have to do it again, that's the whole core ethos of the past 30 years, "Never write the same code twice!", so how are we meant to know how long it's going to take? It's not a science it's a creative art.Management shouldbesee us as customers, not be our masters (used in the academic sense of above in hierarchy).So... you see why pushing me into management is pushing me into failure.EDIT: For incorrect gramar spoiling meaning

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 10:10:35 am
content: Quote from: paulca on August 24, 2022, 09:50:19 amI don't think anyone disagrees with it. Let me ask you this question then:You have a company, that's goal is to make as much profit as possible.They claim, that woman make 70% of the pay of men.So a company's best interest would be to hire as many woman as possible, since they are cheaper. Or offering equal pay, and getting better candidates. They would make it a policy, since they can save money on HR.So something just doesn't add up. Either the job is not equally done, or maybe it has something to do with the facts that men work longer hours. Or that 92% of workspace injuries are men.How about equal pay to equal value, instead of equal pay to equal job title.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 10:24:17 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 24, 2022, 10:10:35 amYou could have just left it at: "it has something to do with the facts that people aren't equal".Certainly if you equate the word equal with the concept of identity and if you don't, then you have to define your equality operator and define it's meaning, it becomes a filter for a predicate comparison and not one of try equality. In code we might use a "Comparator" pattern for this, not an equality operator.It's amazing how much of my trade involves discrimination. It's probably 90% of the actual day, to day patterns I handle and solve. I handle the concepts of comparableness, equality, identity, uniqueness, correlation, classification, categorization, set analysis, venn analysis, distribution analysis, collections theory, information theory, daily.So I get awfully confused these days when I read a DEI email or a news report and I'm and 100% bound to screw up somewhere these days.I had a mentoring session with 4 developers the other day discussing child process management. How to handle termination of child processes, avoiding patricide as it will result in zombies and discussing how to find said orphans and kill them before they call join on their parent and go zombie. It went on for an hour and the number of times someone said something like "kill all the children", such as in the example.... "If you kill the parent, we need to be sure that it first kills all of it's children, allows them to join it before terminating itself."I wondered how that meeting would have gone if a DEI rep was in it.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 10:44:31 am
content: Quote from: paulca on August 24, 2022, 10:09:11 amI can see that being a big burden. On the other hand also stupid of the people "herding" you when it ain't your forte. Look to me they are a bit blind, or you hide it very well.The managerial role was within a company that hired me while being self employed. Did not make a big difference and they thought I was fit for the job. There was still a fair balance between technical and managerial work, but the endless never to the point meetings, ughI left due to us moving to the south. The Rotterdam region was getting more and more crowded and we did not like that. New work came along from another direction. Writing software from home for an English company, and later system management for another company. Liked the first hated the latter, but it brought me where I am today.The only advise I can give here is to try and stay on the technical side of work, the stress will eat you up otherwise. Make sure to take time for yourself. I did not and it might be the base of my illness (CFS/FM), but that is something the doctors can't confirm.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 02:28:33 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 24, 2022, 10:09:11 amI suspect that's the idea. You are being handed your hat.https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxOxuSyovEy7f0JbC0AFIVnNl0VCQfvRe0

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 03:14:17 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 24, 2022, 10:10:35 amThat's a paradox that I've been pointing out for years, and it really drives a certain group of people nuts because they don't have an answer for it. If women could be hired to do the same job as men for less money then companies wouldn't hire any men to do that job. Yet there is a "problem" that most of the people in those jobs are men.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 04:06:06 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 24, 2022, 08:33:41 amThis is what I find the most idiotic of all this - governments and entities trying to force an equilibrium artificially. Even if one is qualified for a job on academics and personal traits, there is also another factor that activists and proponents of these equality measures always forget: free will. What makes one think they actuallywantthe job and its immense weight on personal life? That is somehow completely swept under the rug when doing these pseudo-analysisThe DEI can be beneficial but, if applied indiscriminately and punitively across the board, it is very detrimental. I've been seeing this for more than a decade and know through friends how this is part of the internal regiments of HR departments.Quote from: tszaboo on August 24, 2022, 10:10:35 amIndeed. I will be much more convinced that activists are actually interested in closing the gender gap when they start rallying up for equal opportunities in the blue collar segment of the infrastructure, energy and utility sectors.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 05:32:58 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2022, 02:28:33 pmOr perhaps they value paulca's insight into the product line and the engineering process.I'm a good engineer, and pretty good team leader, and an adequate manager as long as the group is smart and motivated.My last real job was at a startup where I was a founder. I was Director of Systems Engineering, where the system was a telecom/datacom switch with optical and electrical interfaces. I was also system architect, and took on the task of designing a couple of the ICs (gate arrays). I did the management because we needed it done and we needed someone who could manage and guide the technical design process.As the company grew and the management became more "pure management" I was less and less enthusiastic (and I wasn't motivated to do my best at it). Fortunately, given my status in the company and our plans for future developments, I was able to move into an "Advanced Development" role, with a much smaller team. Warning though: any job with "Advanced" in the title is pretty tenuous (which suited me just fine.)When our company was acquired, I was able to move back onto the "Engineering Track". The company actually had senior, well-paid technical positions, where we mostly worked on forward-looking products and technology, worked with Business Development, etc. (not much soldering-iron stuff). If you wanted to maximize your income and influence you were still better off in upper management, but just as not everyone is cut out to be an engineer, so it is in management. Often the "dual track" system is a fraud, but this one was actually pretty good, and I was much happier.But not all companies have room for more than a few senior engineers, so you eventually reach a plateau. Management is a way to extend yourself, especially if you can have a blend of technology and "people" tasks. At least in my field, the days of pure management (MBAs and "a good manager can manage anything") seem to be waning. A good technical manager needs domain experience.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 06:07:36 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2022, 02:28:33 pmThat is far-fetched. And writing this to a guy who seems prone to overthink things and worry a lot -- just for the sake of a punchline and a cool film reference -- is also rather insensitive.I am with fourfathom here and would assume good intentions on the employer's part. Nevertheless paulca's reservations are justified. While it is flattering to be offered a management position, one may be better off declining the offer if it does not feel right.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 06:54:45 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2022, 02:28:33 pmWhile we don't know the particular situation here, promoting an employee to a management position for no clear apparent reason (including, they didn't ask for it) can be a red flag indeed. It's a common way for a company to push someone out gently when it has no solid ground for sacking them.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 09:09:58 pm
content: The goal wouldn't be to get into management.....it would be to get into the HR department. Whoever controls the hiring decisions, controls the social landscape, the direction of the company and it's political bent.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 12:15:49 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 24, 2022, 06:07:36 pmIIRC he said that he's told them multiple times he's not interested in such a management role.Combine that with him having rocked the boat a bit on the DEI stuff, I certainly would not rule out hat handing.Being one of "trouble maker" employees myself that speaks up about stuff, I can tell you that this kind of thing happens.Could be completely wrong of course.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 12:39:26 am
content: OK, important career tip: Don't rock the boat unless you can afford to. If it's that important to you, be prepared for the consequences.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 01:03:12 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on August 25, 2022, 12:39:26 amYes, this is the "screw you money" I've talked about many times. Work yourself into a position where you are not afraid to lose your job or simply tell them to shove it and leave.Having your job held over your head like a sword of Damocles is no way to live.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 01:16:31 am
content: Indeed. John Goodman does a great explanation in the Gambler. (Search “the position of f you”. R-rated language.)I don’t have “screw you” money, but I have (the slightly lesser) “I don’t have to take your crap” money. Makes work life a lot less stressful.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 02:12:30 am
content: I just came across a Benny Hill gag from many decades ago. It seems amusingly relevant:A woman has to do a job twice as well as a man to be thought half as good.Fortunately this is not difficult.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 08:54:54 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 25, 2022, 01:16:31 amFor those who want a baseline on how much "screw you money" you need, I'd say around 6 months of frugal living expenses in liquid assets. That gives you enough buffer to quit your day job on the spot and have plenty of time to find a better job, not just "another job".

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 09:48:45 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 25, 2022, 08:54:54 amSaid from the stand point of "living in a reasonable large city where there is a reasonable large job market to hunt on". Btw in many European countries you cant ,"by law" quit on the spot, nor can you get fired on the spot.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 10:48:46 pm
content: 1 months savings for every $10k salary or close equivalent has always been my rule.The worst thing is having to accept an inadequate offer because your finances dictate it.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 12:46:22 am
content: And it depends on the economic / business cycle. Sometimes the recruiters are at your door, other times it's the wolves. Looking for work in the 1970s recession was painful. The last time I changed jobs was in 1997 when networking tech was booming. I had multiple job offers and my boss offered me a 50% raise to stick around. I ended up helping found a startup, thinking if that one failed there would be plenty of other opportunities (and there were, but fortunately we didn't fail.) A few years later it all went to shit -- for a while.Is there an active forum thread where old-timers and newbies can share stories and advice? That would be fun, and we're dragging this one into major thread-drift.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 12:52:53 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 24, 2022, 06:54:45 pmI do not know who would do it this, it seems to be a really weird way to get rid of someone.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 12:55:12 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on August 25, 2022, 12:39:26 amBut if you can, it is so much fun. Do not ask how I know.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 01:05:41 am
content: Quote from: Bud on August 26, 2022, 12:52:53 amPerhaps this is done in other areas, but in California you don't need a reason to fire / lay off someone, unless they are in a union. You can't fire them because of race, sex. religion, etc, and it's less likely to result in a "protected class" lawsuit if you can show cause, but it's still pretty easy to get rid of someone.I was fired from my first real tech job. I'm pretty sure it was because I was too good (?!), but it could have been because I looked like a dirty long-haired hippie. It was one of the best things that happened to me -- it was a formative experience.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 01:07:35 am
content: Quote from: Bud on August 26, 2022, 12:52:53 amFiring in Europe is *hard*

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 01:20:25 am
content: Quote from: KaneTW on August 26, 2022, 01:07:35 amCall me evil, but I'm glad it's easy to fire people here. I've worked too many places where people I would charitably call "deadwood" seem to accumulate year after year, dragging the whole department down. And I have worked at places where the written policy was to lay off 10% of the staff every year -- with pretty generous severance packages. The managers had to decide which 10% That sounds brutal, and certainly wasn't perfect, but it did result in a sharp and motivated group. Done poorly, it no doubt results in firing more senior people who get the higher salaries, and it somehow didn't seem to apply to upper management, but I still appreciated the results.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 01:42:03 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on August 26, 2022, 01:20:25 amHere it's next to imposisble for government departments to just fire people, the process takes a very long time and the employee can drag it on for a very long time.Regular companies have checklist:https://www.fairwork.gov.au/tools-and-resources/fact-sheets/minimum-workplace-entitlements/ending-employment#:~:text=Generally%2C%20an%20employer%20must%20not,pay%20in%20lieu%20of%20notice).The workaround is to always declare it as a redundancy, and then different laws apply.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 01:43:50 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on August 26, 2022, 01:20:25 amThat sounds insane to me. The training/onboarding overhead must be enormous. I have a hard time hiring as-is.Then again, big companies can be much less careful in who they hire.I do think it's definitely too hard to fire people over here, but it's also a different work culture.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 01:44:55 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on August 26, 2022, 12:46:22 amI don't think so?Feel free to start one, it's technically off-topic but I think it's interesting.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 01:47:33 am
content: Quote from: Bud on August 26, 2022, 12:52:53 amThey do it because they don't want any potential hassle of an unfair dismissal lawsuit or claim. Some disgruntled employees can tie up a lot of your time and/or lawyer money if you just fire them.If the employee quits because they don't like the job any more then it's way way harder to hassle you about that.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 02:49:27 am
content: Quote from: KaneTW on August 26, 2022, 01:43:50 amAdmittedly it was a *big* company, one of the biggest in Silicon Valley. Remember when we were discussing the Pareto Principle on another thread? Where 20% of the people do 80% of the work? In a big outfit it's not too hard to find people to trim, in times of growth often hiring more people than you fire. Even in my small startup with 20, or later 200 employees, we ended up firing a few. It wasn't 10%, and not a policy, but we did hire some who ended up being disruptive or just not happy working in our little pressure-cooker. Nobody I know likes firing people, and it's often bad for the morale (but I recall that there was widespread cheering when we got rid of one particular bad actor.)If you don't fire the deadwood, then good people start to leave. That's why I quit at least two companies. In the long run, a little churn is good for everyone.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 03:07:48 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on August 26, 2022, 02:49:27 amA few decades back I acquired a small, existing company with 7 employees, 5 full time and 2 part time (partially retired old-timers). I needed the real estate and the company was a natural complement to my own so I figured I could merge them and cross-train people. It turned out that 4 of the full time employees were problematic--two complete slackers, one well-meaning idiot and a manager that just wasn't so great. All 4 were fired, the two slackers first and then the other two in what was a fairly contentious morning with shouting and yelling and threats of lawsuits (they'd been there a while and had bled the previous owner dry). Ugly but necessary and my biggest fear was how the other three would take it, especially the part-timers who could easily quite anytime they liked. It turned out they werethrilledand I was able to get more done with 3 than with 7. Both part-timers would come in early and have more done before lunch than either of the slackers would do in a week.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 04:15:41 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 26, 2022, 01:47:33 amYep! And, it's also usually easier to either "push" someone to fault (given that there are more responsabilities), or at least push them to their level of incompetence, at a management position.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 06:25:45 am
content: I once worked at a company (last millennium) who hired a person to work in the Mail Room. The Mail Room was run by a lady who really knew what she was doing and had an effective and harmonious group of staff.However, this new hire flatly refused to followanyinstruction from a female. Within an hour of starting, it was clear he was unrepentant and had to go, but his dismissal still had to follow the process at the time. This involved 3 separate, documented meetings where the behaviour was addressed. These were conducted after a period of time where the person had opportunity to demonstrate acceptable performance.Starting at 9am, he was out the door around 2pm.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 10:08:12 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on August 26, 2022, 06:25:45 amI have seen this kind of behaviour, but never in any workplace I worked myself (and I've worked in quite different kinds of jobs).One thing that worries me regarding D-E-I and intersectionalism, is that it actually encourages that kind of behaviour. If you are a member of some kind of protected minority group, you seem to have the right to demand interacting with only those of similarly protected minority groups.Then there is multiculturalism and the cultural groups that ban females from interacting with males, or younger people from instructing/commanding their elders (as well as younger people not living above their elders in apartment buildings, and so on). Multiculturalism says that these cultural norms must be respected .. but is it really any different than saying it is okay for someone to refuse to follow any instruction from a female?I see this as horribly damaging to the slow progress we've made in treating every individual as equals, with their social, racial, and cultural backgrounds just being their own personal flavour/spice, and irrelevant regarding rules of interaction; only meaningful (and positive!) when diversity is applicable.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 10:52:55 am
content: But is that not what has always happened throughout history. People form groups and frown on everyone different from their point of view.Take integration of labor migrants, it somehow never happens the way we hope or want. They form their own communities within the bigger community and then start complaining about discrimination. Not saying there is no discrimination, but a lot of them don't make an effort to really integrate.I was born in the lesser neighborhoods of The Hague and at that time there certainly was discrimination of all sorts, but it was folksy. Went back after 30 years or so to show the wife where I was born, but did not feel welcomed at all. The houses from then where gone and new builds were erected. The people living there were mainly from Turkey, and they look upon you like "you don't belong here, get away from us".And equality in its whole is basically irrational to demand it. In live and work environment there is hierarchy and there are lots of different people and jobs. So yes you should be treated equal when it comes to the hiring for a single job, but not equal to someone in an unrelated job. And showing disrespect just because someone higher up the corporate ladder is a female and you are not means you are out of order. Disrespect is often wrong, but that is another matter.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 02:20:40 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 26, 2022, 10:52:55 amDo you let that tribalism rule? Do you make your laws to codify that sort of behaviour? Does your company allow workers to frown on everyone different from their point of view?It is not at all clear cut what is ethically and morally right and acceptable with respect to tribalism, particularly when one considers the long-term effects.We probably should accept some tribalism as natural, for example letting people decide from themselves where they want to live, assuming they can afford it and support themselves and their families there. I do not accept it when it goes as far as rejecting interaction with someone "out-group", nor when it becomes rejection of someone "in-group" because they're not a member of some protected group.In between those two limits, there is the gray area where I make up my mind on a case-by-case basis.Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 26, 2022, 10:52:55 amAbsolutely not. Equality is aboutequality of opportunity, notequality of outcomeorequity, which is what you described.It is not okay at all to confuse the two.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 03:10:39 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 26, 2022, 02:20:40 pmEquality: everyone gets the same opportunity. This is provided by law in most countries in the real world.Equity: also known as equality of outcome. People who feel oppressed will handicap you because they think it was easier because everyone is something-ist.People who feel oppressed to ism's, because they cannot fathom the possibility (due to narcissisms often time, another ism) that they lack something. "I didn't get into the university, because I scored lower? Must be because of my whatever status, let's lower the bar for people like me. Or let's lower it for me only, that's also fine." And equity is just plain and simple reverse ism.Where I studied, there was so many different type of aid and scholarship for students that came from poor families. But they had to pass the bar, and get the grades, just the same. Sounds fair, isn't it?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 03:30:26 pm
content: It is also notable that in extremely strict hierarchies like the military, it is not thepersonthat is above or more important than some otherperson, it is the job, or even theinsignia. When I did my stint in the Finnish Defence Forces in mid-1990s, I was explicitly told that I do not salute a/any person, I salute the insignia.Which sounds quite egalitarian in my opinion. The hierarchy is necessary for the overall task to be achieved, as reactions must be fast and operations controlled to the extreme. Some units have to be sacrificed to save a lot more; if that unit can and will refuse, all might be lost. There just isn't time for democracy and discussion.Thus, such hierarchies are not about the person, it is about the job.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 03:35:26 pm
content: First I think the main reason they want to push "good" people into management, is they are really short on good technically minded managers.But mostly it comes down to the roles they provide on the ladder. From "principle engineer" which I achieved only a year ago after an age as Senior. That in itself was a fiasco. To get promoted I had to set objectives towards key skills and demonstrate at the principle level. However I was contracted full time to a customer as a senior and there was zero room to demonstrate any higher position. I tried to reach out to the team as a facilitator to see how that went and got it thrown back to me that, "Your not senior to us, why would we listen to you, in fact we resent it.", they typically added, "and lets not bullshit, we don't work for Company X, we work for "Customer Y", so your authority if you did have any is moot.My senior at the time, holding the promotion from me said, "Paul, titles don't matter, it's how you work people that promotes you.", when I mentioned this to HR (yes it got that bad), their response was "Tell him to say that when he orders people around without his Senior Delivery Manager title and see how many people tell him to get lost."Role is a triangle. You need the title and the authority to go along with the responsibility.The career ladder, while it is supposed to have tech/non tech split, introduces many "key skills and values" at the next level up, which is Solutions Architect. There you are required to become a stakeholder in the management meetings, to be aware of delivery contracts, commercials etc. In my last 1to1 with management discussing career I pointed out, that from the 4 or 5 items listed as additional responsibilities and skills for architect, only one of them is technical (ownership of larger multi-team / multicomponent solutions), the rest are pseudo management tasks. His response was that the letter of the role is flexible. Going up, will not mean you end up in a desk job. I don't believe him.At the moment I am in a kinda "custom" position, because I stated I do not want to do people management. I can't be technically honest while being people line manager and I don't have good people management skills either. So while normally a "tech lead" on a project would also be the "team leader" and possible "line manager" for people, I am not given the people management role.I don't think they are trying to get rid of me, when they are allowing me to basically, currently, choose my own role. Also, I haven't asked for a pay rise, ever. However I get one every year. I didn't get one this year, but that's because they promoted me and... gave me a £8k rise for that. When I started paid, proper career in 2007 I figured a nice target would be a 2K rise per year. I've averaged more than that. Besides a fair salary, not stellar, but if the company do well and I do well, there is maximum 10% salary bonus. I have received that bonus every year with the company, all 10%.To give you a slightly indication of the culture at the company which actually employee me. The first video call after they had bought the company, the CEO opened the video presentation by introducing the head of people and talent (a fairly fat woman) and saying, "we'd hear from her at the end of the call, she might even sing so we know it's over.". It took me a while, as that joke was not expected at all in a CEO company wide meeting, but, yes, he did make the "its over when the fat lady sings" joke. It's an Irish/UK company. I think I'm safe for a while yet.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 03:45:41 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 26, 2022, 02:20:40 pmIt is not a point to justify it, it is to indicate that this has happened and will unfortunately keep on happening. On small scale and large scale. You pointed out yourself that even the movement to try to improve it all does more or less the same. They frown upon the ones that don't see eye to eye with them.Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 26, 2022, 02:20:40 pmTo me it is clear cut, and I agree that in a better world this should not happen, but the problem is that there are a lot of people that don't see it. And even worse, people that can be put in front of the cart and perform acts of terrorism without a proper thought about it.Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 26, 2022, 02:20:40 pmThere you stumble on a language thing. Demanding equal opportunity that is fair, as long as you are willing to put in the effort. We can't give every body what they want just because they demand to be treated or seen as equal.What I meant is we are not equal. Everybody is an individual and shares some similarities with others but also a lot of differences.Further more I think it is impossible to have full equality of opportunity in the society as it is now. You would need to get rid of the huge diversions between poverty and rich first to level the playing field. But being born in either of the milieus is no guaranty someone will succeed in life, no matter how many opportunities they are given. Just because we are all different.I have wrote this before, you are better with words than I am

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 04:04:46 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 26, 2022, 03:45:41 pmAh, okay: I like to describe that as "we are not interchangeable; we are individuals".Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 26, 2022, 03:45:41 pmTrue, and there are even genetic factors, completely outside our control.And it looks like general intelligence, the g-factor, is one of these. It can be reduced by poor nutrition and stress and brain damage, but there are no known methods to reliably increase it. Even teaching how intelligence tests work and how to "game" them only helps by at most one standard deviation (15 points), and really only can be done by those who are already near or above the median (100 points).Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 26, 2022, 03:45:41 pmNo, me fail English often. It may look like that, because I re-read everything I write as if I was someone else, and compare what I wrote to what I intended, and end up editing a lot. Better consider it as verbosity combined with a lot of effort spent to try and convey specific ideas. (I am not suggesting everyone should do so, nor do I consider it a good thing per se. I only do this because IfeelI need to.)

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 04:11:44 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 26, 2022, 03:35:26 pmBut when they do that with people that are not good at managing it makes no sense. I'm certainly for managers that know at least some basic technical stuff when they have to manage a group of technicians although not always needed, but a technician with no manager skills is a recipe for disaster.Quote from: paulca on August 26, 2022, 03:35:26 pmI do agree somewhat with your senior at the time. There are people who have such charisma that they don't need a title to move people in doing a good job. But there are also a lot of people that won't move unless you have a title.Quote from: paulca on August 26, 2022, 03:35:26 pmBased on this information I think you are right in that they don't want to get rid of you.Quote from: paulca on August 26, 2022, 03:35:26 pmWell there is a lawsuit waiting to happen

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 04:16:14 pm
content: On fringe issues at the extremes, after sending myself to some very dark places and genuinely questioning myself and asking if I AM a right wing bigot, I have decided an approach.I will only discuss things which use the common, established, definitions of words and I will NOT discuss ideology, theology or sex in work. That makes it very difficult for me to even encroach on the trigger areas and if it's raised against me, I can hold them at the definitions point indefinitely.Once they start talking about different definitions for words, I will pull the meeting back to the re-establishing "definitions and terms of reference", a standard business meeting practice to avoid miss communications. I simply cannot discuss something with anyone if we are not using the same definitions for words and it is NOT my employers place to push ideology upon me in the work place, nor requirement to redefine common English to do so.Transphobia. Fear of movement.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 04:24:47 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 26, 2022, 03:45:41 pmI am openly, actively, and proudly trying to improve the opportunity my kids have. Just as my parents did for me and their parents did for them. It's how my parents became the first generation in either side of our family to attend any college at all. It's how my parents scrimped and saved to buy me a computer when that's what I wanted most, leading directly to my enjoyable and successful career. It's why they lived below their means to be able to give each of us siblings $10K to help buy our first house and to retire without burdening the next generation financially.All of those represent improvements in the opportunities they afforded to their family and I do my best to afford analogous improvements for my family.I don't see any reasonable way to both encourage families to avail themselves of these means to improve their opportunities and demand perfect equality of opportunity across the population.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 04:25:01 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 26, 2022, 04:04:46 pmI believe it is also age bound. Above a certain age it won't go up any more. This is now and then a topic of discussion with friends of ours. What is intelligence? I have been somewhat obsessed with it due to having two smarter brothersQuote from: Nominal Animal on August 26, 2022, 04:04:46 pmIt is a complementAnd the meaning was towards how you express yourself and not the English that you write. To be honest I re-read what I write too most of the time. Some times I'm to hasty and then the errors slip in.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 04:36:54 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 26, 2022, 04:16:14 pmWell, right there you are already in trouble. It's kind of like using the word "niggardly" and expecting others to accept that it etymologically unrelated to the "N-word".And there is something to the "charisma" thing. Management and leadership are different. I was actually a decent leader but a pretty crappy manager. A good manager should be both. Most of us have worked for poor managers at one time or another and the difference can be dramatic.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 04:38:12 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 26, 2022, 04:24:47 pmAnd that is what good parents do, and your kids most likely won't be up the fence demanding equality of opportunity, because you are trying to just give them that. How many don't even care or are capable of doing so?My parents did that too, they bend over backwards to give us the opportunities we needed. And even though they had concerns about me when I was young, it shifted to concerns about my oldest brother because he did some unwise things. And here we are, I retired when I was 48 (I'm 58 now), have a mortgage free house, can live a care free life and he is still working to pay for his mortgage.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 04:55:06 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on August 26, 2022, 04:36:54 pmYea. I know. Not work, but I once said the local political parties policies were retarded. Because they are. Their policies are stuck in the 18th century and their values in the 16th. When someone tried to say that was an insult against someone, I pleaded absolutely ignorance and scowled at them like I was shooting the messenger. In that instance it worked. I got lucky. "Why would you call people that? ", I had asked angrily.However, you have seen the social media eruptions that take place over the country names Nigeria and Nicaragua? I personally have been to Niger in Morocco. Locally I've also been to Muff (which has a diving school, I am not joking) and Fanny. There are a few even better crackers in Ireland.On leadership. I agree. Where I seem to do better is in mentoring and giving developers support and the odd shove in the right direction. The better they are and the more senior they are, the less time I spend with them. My approach is to sacrifice my productivity to increase that of many. There is no point me pumping out tickets/jiras if 4 members of the team are blocked, stumbling around for solutions. If I pause my work and spent time with each of them, maybe 2-3 hours total, that unblocks 4 people while costing 1's output. Besides I can usually catch up. If things go well and expectations and assumptions play out, the code works, I can scrape by with a mostly full work load with about 4 juniors. First time I did this I had 12 of them. All graduates, only 4 of the IT graduates. For that they removed my work stream and assignment me as dev lead for the remainder of the project, just because I spent all my time keeping them moving. EDIT: The number 2 thing behind "How do I do that?" is "Which way?", decisions. Junior and even senior developers will come to a grinding halt if they find themselves in a situation where they have to make a decision that will effect the whole project. I have the authority to make that decision for them and usually quickly, which ... keeps them moving. Otherwise I've known devs who will sit there for days worrying about it.I can't do that however, unless I'm working "with" them on the same stuff, down in the weeds. On projects where I am only getting a look in here or there, I'm next to useless as I have no context and no time to spend getting up to speed. For those I just trust the more senior engineers on that sub team will be fine and will reach out when they need help and not stew.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 05:09:15 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on August 26, 2022, 04:36:54 pmBut it is unrelated, there is no connection whatsoever aside from having some vaguely similar sounds in it. When a person somehow connects the two words I think it says a lot more about them than about the person using the word.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 05:18:25 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 26, 2022, 05:09:15 pmAbsolutely. I very often turn that stuff right around and present it back to them. If they are going to project that crap into my mouth it's coming back at them.Funny aside. I picked up my headphones to listen to some music and the a British Female voice said, "Over 60 percent battery left.". I said, "Thanks love."..... I'm doomed! LOL Honestly though, I don't think I've called a real woman "love" in my life!

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 05:23:13 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 26, 2022, 05:09:15 pmYes, of course. But use that word in a mixed crowd and see what happens. The DEI warriors will have your head on a spike. Remember, it's "Systemic". Examples:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_niggardly

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 05:27:16 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 26, 2022, 04:11:44 pmYea, and I complain about the projects out in the field with the big US giants, but the thing is, they are lucrative, very much so. Multimillion pound deals. So far the company has paid me well for it. They are difficult projects, for difficult customers, in difficult, almost maddeningly so, development environments. A large percentage of people just bolt. Attrition is high. I just seem to have some sort of sucker for punishment. But I am aware it builds character and it is noticed on a CV, at least for those aware of the sector.QuoteThat was just one example. The banter in the exec staff is fierce, even openly on company wide calls. I've heard worse than the fat lady sings! The company briefings are like watching an Irish comedy talk show... literally that's the style they present in.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 05:48:44 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on August 26, 2022, 01:20:25 amSurely it is possible to have some middle ground. Here I think in many jobs it is too easy to fire somebody, while in other jobs (union for example) it is too hard. Both situations lead to problems.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 06:20:15 pm
content: It's interesting. I know here that banks are particularly interested in where and how long you have worked where you are. Job security mean financial security. So they will lend you more for less.This is a good thing. My house is concrete block and brick, walls 30cm thick, with a concrete tile roof. It's "built". It's about 60 years old now, barely showing a crack, needed a little repointing and it's been reglazed a few times, but it'll be here when I'm gone and I expect it will be here for the next 50 to 100 years. You can throw storms at it, hail at it, it just bounces off. That's like most houses round these parts. Downside is, they cost a fortune to build, cost a lot to own.I remind people of this when they shrug about US encroachment into our legal rights and employment rights. (No surprise, US companies want UK contractors to work US terms). If we shift towards a "Pack your desk, your fired", on Monday morning approach, like the US, banks WONT lend people enough to buy houses here without 50% deposits and stupid interest.That and a whole other "cost of living" factors.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 07:07:36 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 26, 2022, 06:20:15 pmAbout that: Even in the USA, most companies recognize that good employees are worth keeping for the long-haul. Personally, I would usually stay at a job for five years or more -- I was at my pre-startup company for ten years (and I joined that one as a startup as well). I've only been fired once, and that was (I believe) due mostly to internal inter-department rivalry. I was a test tech but Engineering kept grabbing me off the production line to help build and debug new stuff, and the Test manager couldn't stop them -- so he fired me. I also quit the next job the day before I was supposed to start, but that's a different story.That "lay off 10%" policy I mentioned was pretty extreme, most companies were more moderate about it. I assume that the big "10%" company found that the more typical policy resulted in a gradual rise in mediocrity. I've seen it happen elsewhere as over time the sharper employees depart for greener pastures, leaving behind the ones who don't care or can't cut it elsewhere.Even in a good company you can become bored if the job ends up being supporting legacy products with only occasional incremental development. That's why I gravitated to startups -- no legacy product and a clean sheet of paper. Why be stuck supporting a ten-year old design when you know it can be done better, faster, and cheaper with new technology? That, plus the opportunity to learn new stuff?But if you quit you need to do it without burning bridges, and sometimes (in a downturn) you are just plain lucky to have a job. Be practical about it. And bear in mind that my advice is 20 years old -- I retired at a fairly young age.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2022, 07:22:39 pm
content: Well, since the "great resign" movement in the US (and in other parts of the world as well!), I don't think companies are currently much into firing people on the spot like this anymore (unless the employee did something awful.) They have a hard time enough keeping employees as it is.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2022, 03:53:07 am
content: Quote from: paulca on August 26, 2022, 06:20:15 pmThat isn't an issue here, why would it be there? Different banking rules? Is it harder to repossess the house in case of default?The ability to fire on-the-spot for reasonable cause really doesn't hurt reasonable people. And unless you adopt pretty extreme labor laws, the cost of shedding employees due to performance or redundancy is not going to be much more than the actual policies of most established large US companies.https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2022/08/26/ford-salaried-workers-who-lost-jobs-now-review-severance-offers/65458898007/b/t/w, anyone who buys into the line that mass layoffs are just a sign of change and the company is actually just fine, I have a new *&%!-coin to sell you.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2022, 04:05:18 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 27, 2022, 03:53:07 amThe thing is, in most states you don't need reasonable cause, you can fire anyone at any time without reason, the problem with this being that it's very easy to fire them for a reason you should not be able to by simply not stating the reason. I don't really have a great solution for this, but I do think a person should be protected from firing for anything that they legally do outside of work on their own time while not representing their employer.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2022, 01:05:36 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 27, 2022, 04:05:18 amWRT unfair dismissal laws, way back in 2005 we had a thing called work choices. Look it up on wiki for an overview. I'll only discuss the specific BS with it privately. But I will say it sure is a master class on how to fuck up federal industrial relations.Today, in the news they are talking about actually implementing a law that requires companies with 250+ employees to report the salaries because, apparently, one gender(?) feels it is being ripped off.My beef is that the idiots asking for this obviously haven't looked at the history of this being implemented in other jurisdictions and I don't need my crystal ball to tell you what will happen.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2022, 06:59:08 pm
content: Interesting.I've been involved in dismissal of an employee. I stood by him until I could not longer. They put him on a insert-careful-wording-for-report which meant he had to report to "third parties" to his role about his weekly activities. Then face a review with his line / team etc. It came to me when most teams rejected him. I took him as a brand new junior and tried to give him a real (as I could make it) bit of work. He failed after a week to even ask the right questions, so I sent him the answer in pigeon IM code. He still didn't manage to complete the task.... write a single method of code and it's unit tests, to calculate "notional value" for an order. The object he had access to, had both price and quantity. I gave him the formula. price*quantity. Weeks. I tried everything I could. I spent hours with him. Nothing. It turned out, he had only passed the entry exam at the end of the "academy" by copying someone elses work. He copy and pasted messages I sent to him on company comms onto Reddit. There he received a roasting, in his responses he mentioned both the company and the client. He didn't get sacked for that either. He jumped eventually, before we pushed him.I've also been made redundant twice. Neither company exist anymore, shrug. In the first case I got not just a fair severence to the sum of 25% salary, tax free + a 4k please-stay-till-the-end bonus. The grave yard shift. Misserable. But they gave me unlimited time off for interviews. Second wasn't so great, but the instant I left there I had invites from the company I've been with since. Basically, "Coffee?" on Linked in.In one of those companies, actually both of them, the US decree for "pick em and fire em" came down. In both cases our local management called a local site wide meeting and said, "Fuck them.", basically. All the managers responded with counter resignations. Nobody go sacked. They did suspend the entire 50% of staff who where self-employed contractors for the month of December. Christmas. Ouch. The government stepped in though and told them to keep their US policies to the US or they'll lose their "benefits" in kind.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2022, 01:47:44 am
content: Quote from: paulca on August 27, 2022, 06:59:08 pmI have had a similar co-worker at some point. Could not program a single line of code and yet managed to get hired as a programmer. In the NL it is custom to get a temporary contract first which usually lasts somewhere between 6 to 18 months. It is kind of an extended trial period. So it is relatively easy to get rid of people that got hired under false pretences.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2022, 01:56:58 am
content: I got dismissed back in 2005. The guy I answered to downloaded a 3 page PDF file, printed it out and stapled it together. Then he handed it to me and asked me to make several photocopies! I said to him why don't you just print some more from the PDF??? That was too much. He ran to his higher-up and I was out.Never looked back.Nowadays on a good day I can make about twenty times as much per hour, not adjusted for inflation. So I simply work way less. Enough hours to get by and I'm happy.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2022, 03:07:33 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 28, 2022, 01:47:44 amI had one too, I was often responsible for QAing his code, and more often than not the bug fixes and features he gave me were partially fixed, incomplete or just flat out still broken. He'd often close bugs as No Repro when it was clear he had not even really tried. On top of that, I got stuck in a kayak with him on a team outing once and I'm not exaggerating when I say I would have been better off with a stack of cinder blocks in my boat because he couldn't paddle worth a crap and was just dead weight. Eventually he got put on a performance improvement program and when that failed he was finally given a month to find another job.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2022, 05:33:57 am
content: Paulca: Thanks for noticing that 'slip' where they mention 'EQUITY'...(That's real money)!As to a minor incident on my turf, I got INSTANTLY labeled as a Trump-Hannity-Fox News freak...just for simply mentioning a political question, along the lines of what this thread examines. (You), a Person doesn't even have to 'take sides' anymore...just one question, or two, can get you into cancel territory...Too bad, you need a job, and I only joke because this subject is laughable...Too bad we need our jobs, these days...- thanks.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2022, 06:10:15 am
content: YES, James_S, I loath this modern 'diversity' hyper-aware (and cancel-culture). Needed some help, from the local Disability Rights / Services non-profit. But, this time (2021) it was different; Now they are 'diverse' was first message telegraphed, (by explicit mention).Now, they are working at home, a horrible mess of missed messages, phone tag, and outright refusal to dole out services, (available transportation programs for disabled medical appointments).They really got cold on me, after I let it slip, that the organization needed to 'refocus' on helping the community disabled, and 'leave the diversity pride' out of it...There I went, running the mouth, that's about the worst you can do, to the truly distracted, is run the mouth or 'observe' them.Today, it's another whole year, and those office workers STILL want to be 'at home'. (Diversely, I guess).

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2022, 10:22:20 am
content: This shit has infected our armed services. The RAF has paused hiring white men. The head of recruitment has resigned in protest.https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/16/raf-recruitment-chief-quits-amid-row-pause-hiring-white-men/Has it ever occurred to them that more white men apply because they tend to be more interested in the job? Men are generally more aggressive and therefore interested in fighting and those who are born here, to families who have been here for many generations, have a greater investment in this country therefore are more likely to defend it.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2022, 12:24:17 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 28, 2022, 10:22:20 amA very wise decision, with what these days is going on in the world(For those not getting it this is sarcasm and aimed at the pause of hiring white men, not the resigning of the head of recruitment)It would be very nice if there was no need for an army, but unfortunately impossible with respect to human nature. And even though woman are well capable of fight it is stupid to think that this is where they really want equal opportunity. The world is going crazyAnd before anyone trips over this, yes I know there are also men of different color up for the job, but the question is if they apply for it too.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2022, 03:36:55 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 28, 2022, 12:24:17 pmTo me, this is the big issue with lack of diversity in Engineering. Some people just aren't interested in being an Engineer, and some of [those people] who do join the field don't stick with it. Likely reasons:Proportionally less interested in the filed, due to nature/nurtureOnce in the field, aren't happy to be surrounded by others who are not like themAt work, the dominant white males harass or otherwise make them feel unwelcomeOf these, I think that #3 is the least likely, at least in modern times. I would honestly like to hear from non-white men who are in Engineering, or who were but choose not to stay in the field. Because the solution of the diversity issue depends on the reason for the lack of diversity, It seems that many who are proposing solutions are doing so based on unfounded assumptions designed to mesh with their favorite political theory. And of course if the reason is mainly #1, then perhaps it isn't a problem at all.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2022, 05:47:37 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on August 28, 2022, 03:36:55 pmThere are plenty of non-white people employed in engineering where I work. After the BLM riots a couple of years ago, I asked them if they've had problems with racism and they all said no. The last time they experienced racism was a few decades ago at school. I know this is a small sample size, so isn't conclusive.Racism does appear to be grossly exaggerated by the mainstream media. Stirring up racism increases interest in the news, boosting ratings. Pressure groups set up back when racism was more of a problem, now want to alive, as they still have staff to pay and now there are companies teaching DEI, who also have vested interests in keeping racism alive. There's too much money in racism to allow it to die.Why do you care about diversity? I'm indifferent to it. I think it has disadvantages, just as much as advantages. People with different cultural backgrounds are more prone to misunderstandings which can cause conflict. On the other hand, diversity of opinion can be good, as it helps generating a range of different solutions.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2022, 06:15:47 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 28, 2022, 05:47:37 pmI'm just using the "allowed" class of oppressors in my argument. In fact, in Silicon Valley where I was working some companies were majority Indian, with Pakastani, Chinese, and Vietnamese not far behind. We all joked about the "Indian Mafia" actually running things. My last startup was founded mostly by Indian-descent people, I was one of the few WASP founders. As we grew so did the diversity, but probably not in the way that the DEI-warriors intended. We weren't 100% male, but it was close to the traditional mix.Quote from: Zero999 on August 28, 2022, 05:47:37 pmPersonally, I don't care about diversity. I care about competence and attitude, and that people get to do what they like (and are good at).

author: TwistedTransistor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2022, 08:40:00 pm
content: Personally, I see no benefit at all to this forced "diversity".Where is the benefit in 100,000 unemployed Somalis roaming around London? Where is the benefit in 300,000 largely hostile muslims turning Birmingham into an islamic enclave? Where is the benefit in an estimated one million English girls being gang raped by Pakistani rape gangs?Oh but of course, we can get a pizza delivered at 1am by an Albanian on a small motorcycle, so it must all be worth it.Why would we want our workplaces to reflect the demographic hell-scapes that Western countries have become? To what possible end would that be desirable? Why would we want to force women into engineering when their natural inclinations generally operate in other directions? It is a mass mental-derangement. I increasingly feel like I have been abducted by aliens and placed on another planet.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2022, 08:48:34 pm
content: Quote from: TwistedTransistor on August 29, 2022, 08:40:00 pmThey all need somewhere to live, which drives up house prices, benefiting land owners and building companies. They'll work for less than the minimum wage, providing a source of cheap labour for local businesses.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2022, 10:26:51 pm
content: Quote from: TwistedTransistor on August 29, 2022, 08:40:00 pmMaybe the local police in Rotherham could answer that question.The whole world knows about this.Scroll down the page and see what most of the hits are for Rotherham & policehttps://www.google.com.au/search?q=rotherham+police&source=hp&ei=WzwNY_OJMcHm4-EPpOmqqAc&oq=rotherham&gs_lcp=ChFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocBABGAAyAggpMgoIABCxAxCDARBDMgoILhCxAxCDARBDMgQIABBDMgQIABBDMgQIABBDMgQIABBDMgQIABBDMgUIABCABDoFCCkQgAQ6CwgpELEDEIMBEJECOgcIKRCgARAKOgYIKRAeEBY6BwgpEEcQsAM6BwgpENQCEA06CAgpEIAEELEDOgsIKRCABBCxAxCDAToOCAAQjwEQ6gIQjAMQ5QI6BwguENQCEEM6EQguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBEK8BUMQOWI4aYO8kaABwAHgAgAGvA4gBnROSAQkwLjMuNi4wLjGYAQCgAQGwAR4&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp#ip=1

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2022, 11:41:08 pm
content: Entertaining Diversity, Equity and Inclusion news from UK trash (which means few knows what actually play'd out) papers:Police remove lesbians from gay pride parade in Cardiff:Moment cop tells gender-critical women to leave LGBT marchbecause 'whatever you are, you're causing confrontation' withtrans groups and their supporters.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11153811/Police-remove-LESBIANS-Pride-march-Cardiff-Officer-tells-gender-critical-women-leave.html

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 12:45:02 am
content: I think this thread has done its dash. I hope the OP found some helpful responses.Locked.