Startup Feasibility Check – Next-Gen Mesh Communication Device for Outdoor Use - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: WAYV
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 11, 2025, 06:44:52 pm
content: Hi everyone,I just graduated as a business student and recently started a company called WAYV. We’re developing a wearable communication device for outdoor enthusiasts (starting with skiing/snowboarding) that combines low-latency mesh audio, Bluetooth, and RF for off-grid group communication.I have the business and product vision nailed down, but I need help on the engineering side — specifically:• Understanding the feasibility of combining mesh, Bluetooth, and RF into a compact, cold-weather wearable device• What hardware/components are essential to make this possible• Potential pitfalls or design challenges you’d anticipate• Recommendations for PCB design, firmware development, and optimizing audio quality in noisy, windy, sub-zero environments• Anyone here who might be interested in collaborating (part-time, equity-based role)The goal right now is to build a functional MVP for field testing this winter. If it works, there’s a big market beyond just skiing — motorsports, construction, and other industries that need reliable, off-grid communication.Any advice, feedback, or leads would be hugely appreciated. Even if you can just point me toward the right tech or protocols to explore, it’ll help me move this forward.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2025, 09:45:19 pm
content: The biggest issue is that for mesh to work you will need nodes, and nodes are not common in remote places where you would have no other communication option.And "mesh" is a concept, not a specific thing, same as RF. What specific technologies you want to use?Also, are you planning on doing audio over mesh? I would not plan on that working at all.You need to provide exact use case. If this is for a group of people going down the slope together, then basic walkie-talike is all you need (obviously form factor adjusted to your needs).If this is an emergency device, then LoRA-type communication and texting is probably the best you can do.You need to define expected battery life, which will limit the available technologies.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2025, 01:35:24 am
content: Quote from: WAYV on August 11, 2025, 06:44:52 pmGiven that it doesn't sound like you have any electrical engineering, mechanical, or software development capacity yet, nor have you selected key technologies, I would say that this is a fantasy. It's mid August, winter starts basically tomorrow.If you had a couple of engineers on staff that were already familiar with the vision and a solid block diagram I'd think you could get functional prototypes this fall to try out over the winter. If you had a bench prototype from strapped together dev kits and Arduino shields that would be even better because your software person could start testing out the software interfaces. If you are serious about meeting an aggressive timeline, instead of posting on engineering forums asking about technology you should be finding business partners with the skills to answer the questions and make it happen.Especially for something like ski gear, I'd say the necessary level of development for a "functional prototype" is pretty high. The thing has to be functional enough that it's not a safety hazard to try to use and it's got to be environmentally protected enough it doesn't just fail immediately. It can be larger or heavier than the final product but not too big if you want someone to carry it in the slopes.The other piece of advice is that mechanical design is way harder than you probably think.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2025, 02:02:50 pm
content: There is a standard protocol for skier emergency beacons, and it varies a bit around the world. No sense creating a comms device for skiers if it doesn't have the avalanche beacon. Kids / adults / ski bunnies triggering false alarms, which are far more common then real accidents are a design issue. Unless a given ski site decides to listen for that beacon, there is NO national framework to hear it, at least in the US.Different parts of the world (the Three ITU regions) also have different license free communications frequencies. These devices require certification as conforming to standards.Mesh on a ski slope is different, as your signal doesn't go through human flesh well. There is a reason some parts of the world (UK / Europe mostly) use a shoulder microphone with the antennas on top for two way comms devices.Great care will be required so you don't injure a fallen skier. Cold eats / weakens batteries. Wet antennas suck.Doppler won't be a problem, but you'll need TCXOs and have to deal with multipath off a moving skier above UHF,G-Shock, ie the device surviving falls and coming up working is a REAL issue for your proposed service. Mil Spec 810Also at least in the US, the ski patrol common frequency requires a FCC license and coordination. If, and if, the Ski Patrol has radios, the Ski Patrol will NOT want to hear common chatter. So if you have an emergency, how does your signal get to Ski Patrol / Site Owner? That uses a widget known as a "repeater" which is another can of worms, as there is NO national plan for this sort of service. Not to mention FM, DMR, DSTAR, IDEN, APCO25 etc waveform protocols may be in use at different sites.For on the water, there is the VHF Marine FM service, which pretty much works around the world, but has serious regulatory issues, no data except for ARS, and mere chatting is pretty much a no-no. So does outdoors mean any land area?FRS/ GMRS /and MURS radios are cheap and already out there. You would have a hard time competing, and the MURS/GMRS radios don't allow paging / data services. If your not in the US, most countries have similar allocations.If I'm sking, I want the toy to hold the message in case I missed a transmision. Sounds like you need to spend some time talking to a business band commercial radio specialist, you'll hear both good and bad news. Also your widget needs to listen before it transmits. Multiple undisciplined users require signal collision prevention.Low power anything really doesn't belong on a ski slope, oh, and pine trees / leaves adsorb 2.4 and 5.6 Ghz frequencies like there is no tomorrow. That is why 2.4 and 5.6 are license free to a certain extent. Terrain masking across different trails WILL be an issue, so a site may need a carefully placed relay node, aka repeater or mesh master node on a tower(s). Placing that node in terrain requires expertise , testing, and some trial and error, in other words, a RF specialist or trained technician.The 420-512 Mhz band is shared across many, many services, as is the VHF high band. The license free channels are jammed with data users (mostly wireless utility meters) in many areas. For example in my area (Ohio) 902-928 chirps with zillions of utility meters.Not saying it can't be done. But you need an full time expert or two to help you and backing of some sort of Ski Federation to gain market share. It needs to fit into the existing regulatory scheme in each country it is used in, and Administrative Law codes work far differently then what they teach about in school for criminal / civil justice.Trust me on that... FCC is actually business friendly compared to much of the world.Orbcomm/Garmin come to mind for listening for serious 20-50 character messages from low orbit, till you find out the cost of the monthly service, and find that it is sent blind.You might as well make a cell phone with PTT (Push to talk) service and two way texting/paging built in. (yikes) Because that is what your customers already know. Either that or buy/lease some nationwide frequency space from a SMR licensee. Ie what used to be Nextel Push to Talk or similar."Forward and Store" and "Simplex Repeater" comes to mind as past answers to this problem. I liked my portable Simplex Repeater for outdoor fun, when I still had fun.PS, cheap "WIFI VOICE RADIOS" are a thing in much of the world. Not so much the US, as we are "profit" based when it comes to such services.But you need to tailor that so called service to fit a ski slope, and you need LOTS of open fixed / repeater nodes plus backhaul from the nodes to a central data switch or switches (backhaul is off the shelf) and the nodes will need power supplies. Open WIFI nodes are very much a contradiction in terms from a business and security point of view.In other words, decide if your going to be site specific or interoperable or both. Can you guarantee the lost 12 year old will be able reach his/her parents to tell them he she went down the wrong trail?Choosing the technology is a nightmare before writing the business plan.Can you rent the radio to the skier? That limits coverage to known commercial sites.The Disney park wrist band comes to mind, and a friend designed it. The backhaul , initial cost, and relay nodes were a nightmare, and that is just one large site where they had total control over EVERYTHING.Before you PM me, realize I'm not the droid your looking for. I'd combine multiple services into one widget, and that is NOT the way to go.Can something be made before winter from low cost off the shelf, YES. Will it be a success without a lot of careful thought in how RF works in a business model and business plan, that will be a crap shoot without a careful market study. Can it be affordable, yes.. Can it be universal enough to work across multiple sites, very tough question.A similar model is FPV drones, and they bemoan how they cannot find a radio service anywhere in the world that spans over the horizon with enough bandwidth for video without licensing and co-ordination. That is because of frequency reuse, an important concept. So they camp out on frequencies assigned to licensed services and hope to get away with it, but that means the licensed signal trumps their puny illegal signal and they can lose control from inadvertent jamming.What can you offer that is not already beat by cheap and license free? The things you can offer are long range and interoperabilty - data services, but your service will have to be licensed and frequency coordinated to do so.Basically you would need to be a Business Radio, WIFI, or SMR or cellular provider. Guess what, advertising is not permitted. So how do you make money?https://www.skimag.com/gear/backcountry-ski-gear/common-radio-frequencies-explained/https://backcountryaccess.com/en-us/blog/p/benefits-protocols-using-two-way-radios-backcountryNO NATIONAL STANDARD = NO GO.IN the US only:VHF: National Ski Patrol suggested: 155.1600 MHz, 155.2200 MHz (Business Band license and frequency co-ordination required ) May not be available in all areas. Emergency / Area Operations / safety, no chatting.Other National Ski Patrol VHF: 151.1375 MHz, 154.4525 MHz (Business Band license and co-ordination required )MURS: 151.625 MHz (License free, short range, limits / no data, equipment needs approved, but is also assigned as "Green Dot" licensed Itinerate for construction / business) Emergency, Area Operations / safety, no chatting.National Ski Patrol (NSP) Alternate: 155.280 MHz (license and co-ordination required ) Emergency, Area Operations / safety, no chattingMarine Calling channel 16, 156.800 MHZ (Equipment needs approval, Nationwide license in US, licensing in much of the world) Guarded (listened / monitored constantly) by the Coast Guard. Marine radio use on land is frowned upon big time, and fines are issued.So a "Sports" radio needs to talk to licensed service?? Probable regulatory / licensing no go.Nationwide services are often referred to as Itinerate Frequencies and are designed for short range and re-use.Personal Emergency Beacons are also a thing. But licensing, and misuse has major consequences.Good Luck.Steve

author: WAYV
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 12, 2025, 05:17:32 pm
content: Steve, if there is a slim chance I will find a way. Thank you so much for your insight. Still very far from the end.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2025, 05:56:54 pm
content: Four things come to mind. Lobby the FCC to reallocate or share relatively unused or out dated "nationwide" VHF or UHF business band service channels (Like the Telco / Telcomm UHF business radio service, 8 channels, but AT&T may still use rarely) , Low Data Rate Cellular Data Service using existing cell sites, and SMR, Nationwide SMR is sort of a dying business model as cellular data became cheaper from big cell companies, and lots of entities bought bandwidth they are not using and built towers/backhaul. 29-35, 49 and 75 Mhz bands may have a lot of open industrial services allocations no longer used, as well, but requires long antennas. Its not desirable for cellular, so will sit unused, as will some of the former TV channels recently removed from service.There is always ISM, but ISM tends to find users who radiate because its designed to be a set of throw away bands. I doubt many 27 Mhz or 49 Mhz cordless phones are still made, for example, but the existing users are out there.There is a way, but finding it is going to require a RF regulatory specialist, or even a K street lawyer/lobbyist in DC.BTW, If any wag tells you to petition to repurpose High VHF or UHF Amateur radio channels, you will face some of the most powerful lobbyists in the world, including the DOD / Homeland. Its been tried, and is often suggested when people want to throw off a newbie. (hint, Shared with Military Radar and unknown but important Satellite users ) FCC doesn't ever want to make the "226 Mhz" mistake again, splitting off part of a licensed service for a big corporate user, and then it was never implemented.The other common failing petition is trying to grab something that looks unused but actually isn't.Some bands are dual use, very tempting to lobby for, but have unpublished national emergency users who never radiate unless a war starts. 420 to 450 Mhz and 1296, plus 10 Ghz X band comes to mind. I've seen that many times in my life.If you petition the FCC, your petition becomes public, so you have instant competitors.Spectrum used to be a shared public asset, and some of it still is. Other parts have been auctioned and sold for Megadollar prices, then unused nitches are found, and you sub-license the unused spectrum.There are people who specialized in finding openings in the nationwide licensing data base. Start there.If you need to run a trial, "experimental" licenses are EASY to get. (hint, hint) :-)Deciding who gets what is split between Congress, the FCC, and the NTIA. Congress defers to the other two entities in almost all cases, so lobbying your Congress-Critter is generally a waste of time. Congress will occasionally pass a pronouncement ordering the study for freeing XXXX Mhz of spectrum, usually public service or military spectrum, and that takes many years. The other two entities comply with the ITU international allocations by treaty, so there are many reasons for what ends up where.Most of the "good stuff" that allows for short antennas has been reallocated and sold in the last 20 years.If your not a US Citizen, substitute "Your local Regulator" wherever you see FCC in my posts, the process is amazingly similar around the world.Australia has more open allocations for things like ski or off-roading simply because of wide open unpopulated spaces, so there are differences in allocations. Europe has something like FRS, but the channel allocations are different. So don't be suprised to find the Swiss have an allocation for "Ski Area Common" but the US doesnt.Steve

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2025, 07:28:35 pm
content: Here is the broad chart, and very much a bit outdated. Every place in the world publishes one of these:https://www.ntia.gov/sites/default/files/publications/january_2016_spectrum_wall_chart_0.pdfThe actual details are in tables:https://www.fcc.gov/engineering-technology/policy-and-rules-division/radio-spectrum-allocation/general/table-frequencyThen there is subtables, and the licensing database.It is complicated.Steve

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2025, 03:10:52 pm
content: So here are my questions for you..When I can get a highly optimized narrowband analog or digital radio for 35 to 250$ Why Do I want to use your product?The narrower the signal, in most cases, the longer the range, there are exceptions, ie time slotting, some forms of spread spectrum, but not for normal cheap handheld use. Antenna height trumps transmit power all the time. Better antenna and better height is winner winner chicken dinner.When for paying 35$ for a license, and 35 to 250$ for each radio plus 300$ for a Chinese Portable Repeater I can put up in a tree or place the antenna on a carbon fiber portable pole, Why do I want to use your product ?If I take a 100 question multiple guess test, with a 72% passing score, I can use a 150$ high quality radio and a 135$ box to tie into the internet and speak around the world. I can cross link the 135$ box with ethernet cables or Wifi, tie it into a repeater. If I'm a sadist, I can tie it into a portable Starlink dish and have a decent chance of communicating around the world with anyone else with a license using an open source, free, worldwide public system. Restriction with that license is NO business communications and no encryption plus a bunch of rules on what you can say. If I switch to shortwave and learn to use it, I can direct hop across continents. Why do I want to use your product?I probably could fly the digital link box on a drone or a tethered drone , or just stick it up in a tree.. Why Do I want to use your product?With considerably more money but not much, if I can find a high perch for my antenna, I can cover a 20-60 mile radius with off the shelf or surplus gear. Why do I want to use your product?With not much work I can string existing stuff up and down a slope and even use cellular or internet backhaul.If I align a carefully chosen YAGI or Log Periodic Antenna down the slope I can possibly have great service from a single radio down a given trail. Are you going to have the ability to tailor your antennas? (Bit of a regulatory and co-ordination problem)Why do I want to use your product?Rough rule of thumb, if I double the antenna height I get 2x the range for a given antenna up to a few miles. How does sprinkling a node every x meters benefit me? Throwies setting on the ground are pretty useless at WIFI bands..Existing tech is off the shelf and no latency or smarts required other then skill in placing multiple receivers, multiple transmitters, and picking the right antennas. I can even put it on a Buoy. How do you deal with that?What is your niche that you can improve on?One day I should do a writeup on having to rig comms for a one off event in New York , New York, on common frequencies. We had rented 800 Mhz professional radios on dedicated, licensed, entertainment industry frequencies, and just had to get 2500 feet from the roof of one skyscraper to another roof. Guess what, massive failure, and I had to dig out my VHF radios and use both systems to pass messages while channel hopping like crazy. Why ? Illegal taxicab dispatch in Spanish and Arabic had everything open blocked with several hundred watt repeaters on tall buildings on the New Jersey side of the river.. Urban Canyons are a special, very tough, case. If your event is Urbex, how do you deal with existing systems?This gets tough.If 902-928 Mhz is not taken over by a corporation currently trying to re-purpose their position and timing service license into nationwide cellular and data service, 900 Mhz HaLOW radios look OK for what you want to do and are mesh capable.Goals, Environment, Range, Interoperability, Antenna Placement, Coverage, % reliability? Cost, and WAVY vs Open Source/ Off the Shelf and big Companies like Amazon already using urban mesh. You need to define your problem.Good Luck,Steve