anyone know of a cheap pcb fab that can do 4/4 for proto ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2015, 05:03:07 pm
content: i'm looking for an 'itead' or 'oshpark' price on a fab house that can do 4 mil track and gap for proto's.that seems to be very hard to find. once you dip below 5mil the price explodes...

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 09, 2015, 07:16:41 pm
content: http://pcb.hqew.netclaims to be the English-language frontend for hqpcb.com which is one of the more popular prototype PCB factories in China (they could be an agent... hard to tell). Around $15 for a basic 4/4 board (but oddly shipping to the US is very expensive through them). You could also go through a service likehttp://www.hackvana.com/store/which act as a reseller of the same factory's service (most likely).

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2015, 09:16:47 pm
content: Great ! beats the 500$ the local shop quoted for 5 boards by far. : 150$ (including shipping)

author: Christopher
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2015, 09:56:32 pm
content: Have bookmarked them. Can you let us know how you get on, Vincent?I am using Quick-teck in the UK (china re-sellers) at the moment which seems to be going well at work for my protoboards but these guys look a lot cheaper.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 12:46:59 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 09, 2015, 09:16:47 pmEurocircuits charges about the same for 80x100 (half euro card). With carefull selection the prices goes up to 200 euro for a 4 layer board but you'll have the boards delivered in less than 2 weeks.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 01:27:38 am
content: With 4 mil track and gap ?4 layer boards.I have need boards 10x10cmI can wait 2 weeks, no problem.Ill check eurocircuits again, but they were always horribly expensive-EDIT- just did.1000$+ at eurocircuits to make it close to the way i want it... ( only 1/2 ounce Cu on inner layers )135$ at HQEW exactly the way i want it + 42$ shipping ...4 inch by 4 inch4 layerinner and outer track and gap 3.94 mil ( 4 mils )drill 10 milsannular ring 6 mils1 ounce copper on all layers <- eurocircuits can't do this at 4/4, they need to drop to 1/2 ounce32 mils thick ( 0.8 mm board )

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 06:21:54 am
content: Apparently these guys that just showed up in the forum can do 3mil traces, not sure about other parameters but up to 12 layers, only price someone found in there was 10 5"x5" for $120 but unsure if those are 3mil spechttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/pcbjoint-pcb-supplier-in-china/But I know nothing of them, actually I didn't even visit their site.Edit: here are their capabilities, but I can't see how to get the price without registering.http://www.pcbjoint.com/Info2.aspx

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 06:37:23 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 10, 2015, 01:27:38 am$270 for one board at Würth:http://www.wedirekt.de/index.php/pcbNever used them but they have quite the variety of options available.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 10:27:07 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 10, 2015, 01:27:38 amOut of curiosity, why is 1oz copper on the inner layer unacceptable?My presumption: thickness won't change the high-frequency effectiveness of a groundplane, and thicker is better for a low frequency current carrying capacity.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 12:16:25 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 10, 2015, 10:27:07 amHe's looking to have 1Oz, not to avoid it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 01:22:58 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 10, 2015, 12:16:25 pmDon't think so, thought it isn't a cler as it might be! Fromhttp://www.eurocircuits.com/PCB-Proto-service-default-valuesBase copper foil– outer layers 18µm/½ozBase copper foil– inner layers 35µm/1oz

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 01:28:01 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 10, 2015, 01:22:58 pmQuote from: free_electron on March 10, 2015, 01:27:38 amGo check out their price calculator yourself, they won't do it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 01:49:49 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 10, 2015, 01:28:01 pmWe are talking at cross purposes. My question stemmed from:QuoteGiven the poorly written post by free-electron, I don't thinkourconversation is going to generate any light!

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 01:55:29 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 10, 2015, 01:49:49 pmAFAIK, 1/2oz is most common offering for inner layers, or at least something less than 1oz. It is clear that free_electron wants 1oz copper on the inner layers:Quote from: free_electron on March 10, 2015, 01:27:38 amTranslation: Eurocircuits can make itcloseto how he wants it.Exceptthey only use 1/2oz copper on inner layers.Quote from: free_electron on March 10, 2015, 01:27:38 amTranslation: he wants 1oz copper on all layers, and eurocircuits only provide 1/2oz.I see no problem with how he has written his post.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 02:08:52 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 10, 2015, 01:49:49 pmand what is poorly written about it ? you got all the relevant data. i think the problem is at the other end of the stick.I want 1 ounce copper on all layersi wrote : close to where i want it (only 1/2 ounce on inner layers ) . they can only do 1/2 ounce inner layers.I need the 1 ounce due to current requirements. And no, i can't make the traces wider. This is a 3 layer coil ( top layer has a shield over it ). board needs to be 0.8mm , and probably even thinner if this is not sensitive enough.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 02:59:45 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 10, 2015, 02:08:52 pmI can tell you've never been involved in writing technical standards nor commercial proposalsYou actually wrote the line/sentence "1000$+ at eurocircuits to make it close to the way i want it... ( only 1/2 ounce Cu on inner layers )". That can be interpreted as saying that either the way you want it is with 1/2oz on inner layers, or that they only do 1/2oz on inner layers. Since the latter is incorrect, I presumed the former.You have now clarified that you want 1oz on all layers. Fine. End of discussion.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 07:02:25 pm
content: Ah, the old 'anything that can be misinterpreted will be misinterpreted in such a way to cause the most harm or to produce a result as far a way as possible of the intended one'

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 07:24:37 pm
content: Quote from: Christopher on March 09, 2015, 09:56:32 pmTheir boards are OK-ish, but whatever you do don't use them for assembly, they won't do free issue, but promise to purchase your specific BOM parts sourced from Farnell etc, and then don't. Nearly made me quit my first manufacturing soiree as a result.

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 07:51:39 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on March 10, 2015, 07:24:37 pmAnd that's the point that made me think they may be an agent rather than actually the English frontend to hqpcb... They offer assembly service which hqpcb (the Chinese one) don't. But well it's kind of useful that they translated the web form for working out the price (though there's some translation errors, plugged via is actually just tented via, half hole is castellations...)It's not too easy to find an agent that will accept free issue components since most agents make a lot of their profit on the components. Of course there's also the hassle of getting components shipped and having to pay the import duties.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 08:54:27 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 10, 2015, 07:02:25 pmYes

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2015, 01:23:14 am
content: Quote from: janekm on March 10, 2015, 07:51:39 pmYes, I understand all that, believe me, I've been there. But it's not half as much hassle of a 50% yield due to using shit parts like using dodgy 1.5v regulators dumping 5v onto the most expensive part on the board; or receiving a complaint from your assembler about a connector "being the wrong size", when they'd deliberately purchased the wrong one because it was cheaper. That, my friend, is hassle!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2015, 02:38:38 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 10, 2015, 02:08:52 pmEurocircuits not offering a combination of features is often a sign on the wall a PCB will be hard to fabricate. You want traces which are 100um wide and 35um high. That is going to take a huge effort to etch it properly hence the thinner copper layers for these track widths to increase yields. I suggest to use wider traces and more layers to avoid a production nightmare.Oh, and you wanting 1oz copper was completely clear to me

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2015, 03:40:41 am
content: Vincent,Check out Myro (www.myropcb.com).They are a N. American front for a Chinese fab plant, but I've been using them for 10+ years and never a problem (well, couple of small issues out of many dozens of orders that were handled well).Anyway, just priced out a 10cmx10cm, 4-layer, 1oz on all layers (inc. internal), 4mil trace/space, green, HASL.10 day lead time is $247 for ten boards (price is for all ten, not each). $272 if you want immersion gold plating.Thing I like about Myro is they do some of the more advanced stuff, like resin or copper filled vias, they let you choose the amount of copper on your internal and external layers, they let you choose your soldermask and silkscreen color, e-test, via plating thickness, routed shapes, countersinks, HASL/immersion gold/tin/silver/OSP. You can also pick your substrate, FR-1, FR-4, CEM1, CEM3, Rogers, Aluminum. And unless you pick some really weird option (like multi layer aluminum PCB), it will quote you online - no waiting for emails.You do have to create an account, but in 10 years of orders I've never gotten a single spam mail.IIRC you are @ Tesla now... the owner @ Myro is a guy named Charles, if you have a fair amount of potential work I'm sure he'd love to hear from you.No affiliation, just a happy customer.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2015, 04:44:09 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 11, 2015, 02:38:38 ami know the aspect ratio is rather high but it is doable. Plenty of companies can do it ( even in the far east )wider traces more layers is out of the question. this is a printed inductor changing geometry changes the inductance and that is a no-go. i need a specific inductance for a specific current. Design is driven by the manufacturer of the circuitry. their demo boards use that geometry. all i need is replicate. messing with the coil is out of the question as it changes the behavior of the system.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2015, 04:45:55 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 11, 2015, 03:40:41 amthis is for me personal. nothing to do with my 'real job'. We got suppliers there but those are way out of my price bracket.

author: ManCave
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2015, 10:39:00 pm
content: if you try thehttp://pcb.hqew.net/let us know your experience. I would be quite curious as well.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2015, 08:16:25 am
content: Some weeks back we fabricated some prototypes for a client effectively 6 layer construction with 3 ounce 20 thou space/track construction. Again a transformer like design.

author: zeke
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2015, 03:28:15 pm
content: What about these guys?http://quickturnpcb.co.krThey are in South Korea and they are fast!I am a happy customer.