Handgun Barrel Sizes - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 09:39:11 pm
content: My girlfriend is watching a crime show on TV and I just thought of something, why do handguns have such weird internal diameters in their barrels? It's bad enough having 0,22 inches (5,56mm) and 0,303 inches (7,9mm) but there are also the 0,357 Magnum (9mm) and 0,44 Magnum (10,9mm).Why don't guns come with barrels manufactured using sensible sizes such as 0,2 inches, 0,3 inches and 0,33 inches?Note: I'd like to keep the metric/imperial argument out of this

author: warp_foo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 10:04:23 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on August 14, 2015, 09:39:11 pmWell, the Europeans foisted 9mm on us, so we retaliated with 10mm. :-)I doubt there is any real rhyme or reason to caliber sizing. Most of the calibers in common use today are based on rounds developed in the late 19th century.The most popular (handgun) rounds are still based on those sizings:.36 caliber begets .357, .38 (which is really .357), and 9mm (.355).44 caliber begets, well, .44 - both special and magnum19th century ballistics were more about black arts than science, really.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 10:04:41 pm
content: Probably as good as metric/imperial: that's how they made them, long ago.Wikipedia have any history on it?.357 being 9mm sounds like an attempt at metrication, but you know how that goes: the nice thing about standards is there's so many of them...Tim

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 10:20:03 pm
content: Quite simple really, projectile sizes that are commonly available.No need to re-invent the wheel.Quote from: warp_foo on August 14, 2015, 10:04:23 pm+1

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 10:35:03 pm
content: I don't think you're going to get any insight by deliberately ignoring the different systems of units (which are more than just "metric" and "imperial" by the way; the history goes back enough centuries that there were effectively different systems in every country).In the lead shot era ammunition was all spherical, and commonly poured as molten lead from a shot tower: this led to considerable variance in the actual diameter, even after being sieved for size. 0.50 inches, 0.58 inches, and 0.75 inches were pretty common round-ball sizes in the 19th century.When cased ammunition was developed, you needed to have many different parts that were sized to match, along multiple axes. So it was common to take an existing pattern like a brass case and "neck it down" for a different caliber bullet when designing a new weapon; this reduced the investment needed to build a prototype. A huge variation in patterns were made, and the popularity of a few standard sizes today can be seen as an exercise in standardization. That doesn't mean that the standard sizes were chosen "rationally", just that they were selected from the best existing choices in a large market.I'm sure there's a lesson to be drawn for the electronics industry, I just don't know what!

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 10:45:46 pm
content: Quote from: helius on August 14, 2015, 10:35:03 pm2/PN22222N3904BC547 (? I never work with BCxxx)C945C1815...On topic: the above listed parts would work pretty well in a shotgun.Tim

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 10:57:14 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on August 14, 2015, 10:45:46 pmBlunderbuss would be better...

author: warp_foo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 11:05:51 pm
content: Quote from: helius on August 14, 2015, 10:35:03 pmAgreed. For handgun calibers, the two companies with the most popular handguns were (in the 19th century) Colt with the .36 caliber revolvers for the Army and the Navy, and Smith & Wesson with the .44 caliber for the Russian Army contract. (There was a .44 American, but the Russian round was superior for a number of reasons.)Colt then developed the .45 Colt for the ubiquitous Single Action Army (pretty much *any* Western film in history has a Colt SAA), which cornered that market. If the movie doesn't have a Colt SAA, it will gernerally have the Remington .44.mETA: In many cases, different calibers exist to prevent loading similarly sized rounds into a chamber not designed to handle it. The .45 Colt is quite similar to the .44 Russian, but has a slightly longer case to prevent loading into .44 Russian chambers.If you really want a headache, this was all taking place during the transition from black to smokeless (nitro-cellulose) powders.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 04:22:24 am
content: Quote from: German_EE on August 14, 2015, 09:39:11 pmWouldn't 0,22 inches, 0,27 inches and 0,33 inches make more sense?

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 05:50:17 am
content: You'll drive yourself nuts trying to figure it out. There's no real rhyme or reason, and individual rounds have different reasons behind their names. I suspect some rounds are that size because they line up with standard fractions. Some are odd sizes because of how they're measured. Some of it has to do with ballistics. Some of it is for historic reasons. There are marketing reasons involved too.Seriously, there is no good answer. It's just how it is and there's no sense going down the rabbit hole trying to get to the bottom of it. There's no bottom of it.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 09:01:19 am
content: Calibres were originated from the dia. of the number of balls of lead that added up to a pound in weight and were originally called gauges, a term still used in shotguns and some black powder guns (8,10,12,16 etc)A lot of the imperial and metric calibres started from gun manufactures competing with one another, if Smith and Wesson introduced .44 Colt would go one better and and make .45 and another company would then go to .50. It is also due to perceived stopping power of the round which with black powder muzzle loaders is down to the weight of the bullet as much as anything else. When cartridges and breech loading came along it was recognised that making rounds in a more standardised range of sizes was better for all, if you Colt for instance and your cartridges were only in .45 you would loose out in the sale of ammunition to a Smith and Wesson owner. The same thing went for riffles as well and many rifles were manufactured to take pistol ammo, very few pistols have been made to take rifle ammo other than a few special long range pistol competition guns I think that only the Soviets made an issue side arm which was chambered for the same round as an AK47.The very first ever patent granted was for a gun with interchangeable barrels which fired round bullets for shooting Christians and square ones for Heathens which at the time of granting meant Muslims, there was no way the gun could be produced back then we are not even talking matchlocks it was more blow on your piece of burning rope reach across and apply to the touch hole.Guns like .38 and .357 magnums are basicly the same calibre except the magnums cartridge is a bit longer, when I used to shoot full bore competition I used a .357 magnum with a .38 special round as the extra weight of the magnum gun and the lighter load of the .38 special round gave less recoil and therefore helped improve accuracy.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 10:03:43 am
content: I think I remembered the point I wanted to make about the electronics industry.There's an obvious advantage to standardization, but it isn't overwhelming. Today there are standards for ammunition sizes, and that has real logistical benefits, but it hasn't stopped proprietary calibers from being used. A good example of a modern proprietary ammunition is the 5.7mm, only used by FN Herstal on a few of their guns. Despite the logistical problems they have had decent adoption in armed forces.Likewise there are standard packages for ICs, and industry standard connectors. But (for example), IBM has done just fine using proprietary IC packages, and Apple uses several proprietary connectors (MagSafe, Lightning, Thunderbolt, etc). The factors that make it possible are integration, improved QC / consistency, and functional improvements.

author: Ryano
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 06:04:28 pm
content: A little history of the development of the .357 revolver. Relevant discussion of the .38, .357, 9mm, and how they came about and how they are related shortly after minute 10.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 06:20:07 pm
content: Lots of different factors going on. I have heard, but never attempted to verify that the militaries of some nations chose their ammunition such that captured ammunition from opposing armies could be used, but not visa versa. Basically chose something slightly larger than expected opposition.I also know that standardization came hundreds of years after initial use of firearms. Well into the 18th century firearms often came with a matching bullet mold. This in spite of the fact that the muzzle loading technique of the day (ball wrapped in a cloth or skin patch) could absorb relatively large variations in diameter. So there was already a very large installed base before mass production techniques were developed. Would have made the psychology of standardizing on a small number of sizes difficult even if the practicalities made it beneficial. (My grandpappies .463 rifle could take out anything in the hills, while uncle Tom's .486 never could hit anything. There is no way you can tell me that a 0.500 will be just as good as that 0.463).

author: Landrew2390
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 06:57:53 pm
content: To even more confusion, we've got various governments that have passed laws banning military calibers for civilian ownership. In response, the ammunition manufacturers would add 1mm here or take it off there and claim in was a new cartridge. In extreme cases, the performance was identical in every respect. A good example is the .307 Winchester vs the .308 Winchester. Same bullet, same internal dimensions, same powder charge, same performance. But one is rimless and the other is rimmed. All because Spain passed a law banning military calibers.Add in regional and consumer variations in names and you've got a monstrous mess. It's not worth trying to figure out. Just remember, the wrong cartridge in a gun can sometimes lead to a spontaneous disassembly event.

author: Ryano
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 07:31:35 pm
content: Quote from: Landrew2390 on August 15, 2015, 06:57:53 pmA spontaneous "disassembly event" can also lead to the .44 Magnum as well!

author: Landrew2390
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 07:38:06 pm
content: And that kiddies is what happens when you start cutting into the design margins. Now everyone count your fingers and make sure everything is still attached.All joking aside, I've had an automatic pistol do that. If you're holding the gun during a disassembly event, you're probably going to need a hospital. I got lucky and everything went up instead of spraying metal fragments in every direction.

author: Ryano
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 08:03:09 pm
content: Quote from: Landrew2390 on August 15, 2015, 07:38:06 pmKeith certainly push the "design margins", but the manufactures took notice of what he was doing and designed firearms that could handle it.As someone who is getting into hand-loading (the voltnut/timenut equivalent of the shooting world), I know I don't need to push the limits any farther. I can go out and get a Smith & Wesson 500 Magnum if I wanted to for the love of *god!*Not any actual god tied to any sort of organized religion just an expression of the raw power of that round.

author: Landrew2390
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 08:10:51 pm
content: QuoteThat makes you a smart reloader. I've seen too many people get hurt trying to squeeze 5% more power out of a round. You hit the nail on the head. If you want more power, get a bigger gun.And as one shooter to another, enjoy your new, very expensive hobby. It's worth every penny.

author: Ryano
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 08:25:51 pm
content: I got lucky and scored a six stage Redding press plus all the accessories for $100.00 off of a Physics Professor/regular at my local pub, that has been out of the sport for awhile and wanted to see it being used again.Bar of entry was significantly lowered by that.I also seem to collect expensive hobbies as, well...... a hobby! Electronics being just one of them.As least the electronics side of things gives back enough to keep the others going!

author: warp_foo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 08:34:43 pm
content: Quote from: Ryano on August 15, 2015, 08:03:09 pmYou can make the volt/time nuts look sane; take up benchrest shooting.m

author: Ryano
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 08:38:15 pm
content: Quote from: warp_foo on August 15, 2015, 08:34:43 pmSomething like this?

author: Ryano
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 08:41:41 pm
content: ....and yes this is a a very "tongue and cheek" video, but these people actually exist!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 09:01:39 pm
content: Quote from: warp_foo on August 15, 2015, 08:34:43 pmLong range varmit shooting is like that too, mates have got $10K invested in their shooters.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 09:05:01 pm
content: I saw a bench gun that had a TV camera for a sight, the shooter looked at a computer monitor and use the keyboard to move the aim. The gun took a .50 calibre cartridge necked down to .17 and was loaded with ground down pistol and shotgun powder, an absolute devil to load.

author: Landrew2390
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 09:06:04 pm
content: I think every hobby has those people. I do model railroading and we actually have people that count the rivets on the models and measure them to make sure they're the correct scale size and spacing.I'm a 3 foot model railroader. If it looks good from 3 feet away, I'm happy.

author: Ryano
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 09:06:20 pm
content: There's a corner of the sport for everybody and it's not like our EE benches can't quickly get into the $10K range with a quickness!

author: Ryano
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 09:09:40 pm
content: Quote from: Landrew2390 on August 15, 2015, 09:06:04 pmI purchased a purpose built "rivet scraping" tool back in my N-Scale days! Never used it, but I still have it when needed!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 09:15:41 pm
content: Quote from: Ryano on August 15, 2015, 09:06:20 pmTrue, I guessneedingand using a 8.5 digit DMM might be comparable to 800 yd shots on rabbits.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 09:31:59 pm
content: Quote from: Ryano on August 15, 2015, 08:41:41 pmThey do, and I made a simulator for them, that of course it flopped because being such a niche sport and also very low budget, pretty much me as the entire game engine guy and another guy doing the gameplay, couple of artists and not a lot of time to get it very polished.Funny you can still find it on amazon and since it's rare it's still at the full pricehttp://www.amazon.com/Xtreme-Accuracy-Shooting-PC/dp/B0002LDGKSDon't worry I won't see a dime of it if you buy it and of course any online it had is long gone since it was server based and those are long gone.But the physics, rules etc is all in there including making your own ammo with all kinds of parts and suppliers, so it's as real as it could get thanks to the gameplay programmer that is really good at simulating physics although I wished I could get more programmers to help me with the engine and more artists to get better models with better animations.So don't laugh at the 3d graphics being dated because I know they are. Then again working of a full engine I had to do it all including the UI engine, sound, networking, animation engine, skinning, tools for the artists and the full animation toolchain, you name it I did it, even making the wind vane ribbons behave like they should to indicate the wind. so I could only take it to the resources I was given and the models of the guns is where most of the detail went.But that range you showed had almost no wind blowing, it gets tricky to put a bullet through the same hole at 200 yards with varying winds. That's why they place those wind vanes.Also loading your ammo makes a difference, it's the time nut equivalent as you say. There is some audiophoolery in there as well since every now and then you can encounter a magic barrel that is always true.We did of course tried to learn everything we could about it and I do have some targets around with my real life groupings at 200 yards all within an inch and a half on a windy day. But not my gun nor did I do my own ammo loading which is probably the most difficult part if you want that level of precision.I did encounter very interesting people in that sport that came from military background, It's a weird feeling when you feel impressed and scared at the same time about someone.Anyways, not the best game I contributed to, but the one that I work harder at since we were so small.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 09:34:42 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 15, 2015, 09:01:39 pmAgain, not the cusp of my career but it was a paycheckhttp://www.amazon.com/NRA-Varmint-Hunter-Pc/dp/B0006NMOCS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1439674419&sr=8-1&keywords=+NRA+Varmint+HunterMetacritic was brutal, but it wasn't a pc game really they are well very niche titles not targeted to the main pc gaming community but more to cabela and other sport stores.Oh and yeah, PITA had a couple of things to say as well.

author: Ryano
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 10:07:58 pm
content: I feel I may have instigated this thread swinging way off topic, but if people are satisfied that the OT has been discussed and everyone is fine with with the shift to the pursuit precision that we all love in every part of our lives then I'll add this as an example of all the factors that go into putting a small bit of lead where you want it from afar.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 11:16:35 pm
content: Last one:Yeah, pretty boring for mainstream, but it had its place among the people that participate in highpower rifle competitions.I did get to play with a lot of guns, and what can I say, they are fun if handled safely. I wouldn't call myself an expert shooter and after I left that company I haven't fired a single gun ever since.The coolest thing I did while there was a simulation using a modified AR-14 that would shoot a laser pulse into a projected screen and it worked so well that the military even granted us a demo presentation and they were impressed, but at the end we didn't get a contract.As for the varmint one, well, those critters don't care when a cow, a horse or a deer break their legs stepping into their holes, that's why they are hunted. And I just found out that prairie dogs call us fat (well if we are fat that is). Maybe we can learn more about their communication so we can tell them to stay away from the ranches and hunting leases or else.

author: warp_foo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 02:40:48 am
content: Quote from: Ryano on August 15, 2015, 08:38:15 pmThe Starrett dial indicator at 1:39 is a nice touch. :-)m

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 02:46:12 am
content: Quote from: Landrew2390 on August 15, 2015, 07:38:06 pmMany years ago, I had a Dan Wesson .357 that came with a 4" heavy vent barrel and I got an 8" heavy vent barrel. Target shooting was done in .357 cases with lead hollow base wadcutters and light loads. The heavy rounds used 180 grain full metal jacket bullets loaded hot. One particular batch of ammo I took to an outdoor range for metal plate shooting with the long barrel. After a few rounds, something didn't seem right, excessive flash between the cone and cylinder. I opened the cylinder and found it flopping as it had separated from the crane. Fairly inexpensive repair back to Dan Wesson. Luckily for me, the revolver was well made and only it suffered damage. Lesson learned. I had to break down the rest of the rounds and load them more sensibly. I had to get the kinetic hammer shaped bullet remover to do the job.

author: bills
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 03:00:42 am
content: My son and I go target shooting and he can hit targets at 1500 m and I can't see that far, I was thinking of puting a video camera near the target so we can see the hits.You USA guys are giving the EU and the Aussie's people nightmares thinking we are all armed. (for good reason a lot of us are)My favorite weapon is my M1 garand good for 800m. (target only) I don't shoot any thing else (except) never mind.I own 12 firearms and I have never used one in anger.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 03:22:23 am
content: Quote from: bills on August 16, 2015, 03:00:42 amA mate that shoots on my range has one of these:http://www.bullseyecamera.com/He's an Apple guy and has ongoing problems with the VM he runs for the wireless link and although Bullseye say they will develop Apple SW it hasn't happened yet.AFAIK it runs fine on a Win laptop.

author: Landrew2390
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 03:41:28 am
content: QuoteWe're not ALL armed. But the ones of us who are tend to be very heavily armed. Back when I had lots of disposable income, I probably bought more ammunition than I should have. That was 5 years ago and I've still got a couple of boxes.Funny story, buying ammo got me put on an FBI watch list. I worked for the Boy Scouts of America and went into town to pickup 25,000 rounds of ammo for the rifle instructor. The lady working the counter called the FBI and told them, "A man in a military style uniform just bought a pickup truck load of ammo." I kid you not.For every American that loves guns, we've got someone that's terrified of them and thinks they need to be banned entirely. I do gunsmithing as a hobby and my mom is afraid of guns. It's funny in a twisted sort of way.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 03:50:06 am
content: QuoteNot so twisted, freedom of choice and belief being what it is. I have never owned or felt the need to own a firearm. However I hope to always have my existing freedom to obtain such if and when I feel the need to. I am aware that not all citizens in all counties are allowed such a choice.

author: bills
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 03:56:55 am
content: ok

author: Landrew2390
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 04:06:44 am
content: We've got certain people in the United States that don't care about those rights and want to turn the entire place into social and/or economic petri dish. I don't have a need to own a firearm, but like retrolefty, I want to preserve my rights. The entire political system here has degenerated into a pointless pissing match. Everyone is right and if you disagree, you're racist, sexist, a drug user, etc. We've got our rights at the moment, but I don't know how much longer we can continue without some kind of change to break the political deadlock.As a side note, my sister got to meet VP Joe Biden today. She said he's a nice guy in person.

author: bills
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 04:12:14 am
content: remind me to ignore your sister

author: Landrew2390
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 05:11:40 am
content: My sister is smart enough to know she shouldn't trust anything a politician says. She made it through a 5 year pre-med program in 4 years.She said Biden was polite, respectful and as long as he wasn't talking politics, very intelligent sounding. Now that I think about it, she said the same thing about our Governor two years ago . . .

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 11:39:48 am
content: Quote from: retrolefty on August 16, 2015, 03:50:06 amGun control is not a bad thing per se, but when taken too far you do indeed get situations like we have here. We had a decent balance until some idiot Freemason police chief got his dodgy Freemason mate a license he should never have had and he shot up a school. Now apart from criminals and the police there's only a select group that own firearms, and home defence is not a valid reason*. The US does seem to be too far the other way though.OT: As a deer stalker I'm very impressed by some of the long range shooting vids posted. But my only consideration when it comes to calibre is "could this take the target down at range in one shot?"*I'd never keep a handgun at home, but that's a personal preference not something I think should be imposed on those trustworthy enough (i.e. the vast majority of people) to own a firearm at all :/

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 01:15:38 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on August 16, 2015, 11:39:48 amIn NZ for the sized animals we have it is widely accepted that one must have a minimum of 2000 fps and 1000 ft/lbs of energy at impact to humanely do the job. With any ballistics program you can then determine calibre and projectile weight required for any sensible range that one might have to take a shot.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 04:20:01 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on August 16, 2015, 11:39:48 amIn the UK, the gun laws are so strict that most of the police force are not allowed to carry guns. A small proportion of police force are specially trained to carry guns and are only allowed to do so under certain circumstances. In fact most officers don't even carry tasers - only specially trained officers are allowed to do so.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 05:03:12 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on August 16, 2015, 04:20:01 pmBut what is preferable, to get stunned by a taser or beaten around the head with a two foot metal pole which is what all PC carry here.

author: Landrew2390
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 06:20:15 pm
content: QuoteThe taser has been a fantastic tool for law enforcement. Having said that, I know of very few situations where a law abiding citizen who fully cooperated and did what they were told were hurt by the police. Police have one of the hardest jobs out there and need to be able to protect themselves. Not issuing anything but pepper spray and a baton is leaving them vulnerable in my opinion. I know it's a different social landscape in the UK, but not giving police the ability to protect themselves if something goes wrong is borderline idiotic.Gun control in the US is a hot button issue. And the problem is the people in charge are idiots. We had "The Assault Weapons Ban of 1994." It banned what I like to call "scary features" and did absolutely nothing to curb gun violence. I agree we need better background checks. As it currently stands, you can get a handgun if the background check doesn't turn anything up. But if they don't get the background check done in 14 days, you automatically are allowed to buy the gun. If that's the case, why are we even running background checks in the first place?What we need is common sense rules that actually get enforced. That's not just the US, it's every county in the world. I vote we fire all career politicians and start over.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2015, 05:28:38 pm
content: Gun control is a hot button topic, with emotions that run high on both sides. The results are very strange when you try to look at it dispassionately.I am one who grew up the Western United States. Gun ownership is widespread and accepted, but public carry of sidearms was relatively rare at the time (1960s) but not a topic of concern. The biggest discussion I recall was during brief employment by the US Post Office. The old nearly retired postal carriers lamented the fact that they no longer were armed as they had been earlier in their careers. I guess the wild, wild west lasted quite a while. With this mindset I was stunned on my first visit to Massachusetts, the state in the US with the most stringent gun control regulations, to find that even school crossing monitors (the folks who hold up stop signs to let the kiddies get across streets safely) were armed. Apparently in a state where private ownership is highly regulated even the most minor official use justifies a firearm.A little later, after traveling over much of the United States I got to visit Germany and Austria. In the US at the time it was rare (and still is, after a brief period around 9/11) to see police armed with long guns and sub machine guns. I get to the airport and Germany and find police patrols everywhere armed with sub machine guns. Many of the police forces I encountered were more heavily armed than is common in the US. This wasn't due to a brief period of heightened threat as I encountered this in several subsequent trips over the years. I was also surprised to find that many of my professional colleagues carried concealed weapons. They were authorized because there was fear that foreign espionage would put them in harms way. Again heavy restrictions on private ownership, but much broader public justification for ownership.A little after that the infamous soccer riots occurred, with their embedded gunfights. Even though Europeans don't use their guns in random violence as often as Americans seem to, they seem to have much broader access than is advertised.

author: Landrew2390
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2015, 08:03:52 pm
content: The bar to ownership is lower in the United States, but we've got a bunch of laws that make no sense. I've actually bought ammunition and they asked me what I was going to put it in. When I said a revolver, they wouldn't let me purchase it because I wasn't 21. But if I'd said that I was going to feed it into a rifle, that would have been okay.Part of the problem with the gun control debate has nothing to do with guns. I left a loaded rifle in my truck for years and it never killed anyone. People are the ones committing crimes and they're using guns to do it. I agree a few of those people shouldn't have had guns, but in my area in the last three years, we've had attempted murder using pipes, coat hangers, propane, fertilizer, diesel fuel and a car. I don't see a huge group screaming that we need to take them away. It comes down to personal responsibility.CatalinaWOW, you may can answer my question. In Europe, I assume that gun owners were discrete with their guns. At least more so than the stereotypical "Redneck with Guns" owner that I frequently have to deal with in my area. Am I off base saying Europeans have a more grown up attitude towards firearms in general?

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2015, 08:36:08 pm
content: Quote from: Landrew2390 on August 16, 2015, 06:20:15 pmIt has been many years since any criminal when caught has said "it's a fair cop gov" to the arresting police officer here in the UK, I think that the crooks along with the rest of society has seen to many Hollywood movies.I have heard the police talk about them and us, Us referring to the police, I once had a policewoman as a girlfriend so I got to go to a few parties and gatherings of mainly police personnel. Personally I think that when it comes to the police referring to the public as them or civilians the battle is lost, the police are civilians and not a paramilitary force here in the UK.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 12:37:55 am
content: I haven't personally run into any "Right to carry" types in the US, so it is hard for me to compare European maturity with here. While I see them on the news I don't regard that as any kind of reliable statistical information. The right to carry guys and news organizations have a natural attraction to each other. In many ways Americans behave sanely and maturely. When and where I grew up most pickup trucks had a gun rack behind the seat with one or more rifles and shotguns. All the time. At the market, picking up the kids from school, everywhere. It was just a convenient place to store them where they would be ready for hunting, varminting, or just a little plinking. As theft and bad PR grew these disappeared. In most cases it had nothing to do with legislation, just common sense in a new environment.Another example - I know perhaps 15-20 people who carry a concealed weapon. They are all very discrete about it. Few other than their families or close friends are aware. Or take my personal situation. I have a concealed carry permit (long story about why), but have never carried a concealed weapon for a variety of reason that make sense to me. I suspect that cases like these are far more common than the nuts found on TV news shows.It is very hard to get reliable statistics on gun deaths - each organization collecting them has strong motivation to bias them. It is clear that two of the major components (criminal on criminal fights, particularly gang warfare, and suicide) can be better attacked by methods other than gun control. The next two big categories are domestic violence and accidental shootings. Murky waters here about how best to move forward. I get the impression that European domestic violence rates are far lower than US rates. What is it about America that breeds wife beaters?

author: Landrew2390
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 03:50:26 am
content: QuoteI think part of that stems from the lack of respect for self and others that is becoming more of an issue in parts of the United States. Being in my mid twenties, I can't speak for long term trends, but my father often speaks of younger adults dressing sloppy and being disrespectful towards others. According to him, it has been getting worse at an accelerated rate. When you don't value other people as human beings, it becomes easier to abuse them. That kind of attitude is learned at home when we're young and I feel the rampant absentee parenting is making it worse.In my area, we see a massive number of 17-19 year old kids getting married and immediately trying to have kids. Kids raising kids has always been a recipe for disaster. And kids raising themselves because their parents aren't around to raise them just compounds the problem. After a couple of generations of that pattern, the wheels start coming off and society begins to degrade.I don't know if my area is typical, but talking to friends along the east coast, my observations seem to hold up in concept, but my area seems to be suffering worse than most.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 04:34:30 am
content: Here's what happens when you fire the wrong bullet. Now before you think this guys is some doofus, he's actually a veterinarian and runs a charity that saves animals that otherwise would die from euthanasia or have been hurt badly. (That youtube channel is called Vet Ranch, but his gun channel is Demolition Ranch)