Australian Engineers Registration Act? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: GodIsRealUnless DefinedInt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 04:49:11 am
content: I just heard that Australia has some law on the books that's coming into force that all engineers have to register with the government and cannot give engineering advice or represent themselves as an engineer unless they do. Something also about you need a minimum of a four year university degree and even then you have to apprentice yourself out to another registered engineer for four years before you can be "blessed" with your own engineer title? Is this throughout the entire country? It sounds to me like protectionism.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 05:06:01 am
content: It can mean nothing if you are willing to work around it. In the US licensing is done at the state level and some states have various restrictions on calling yourself an "engineer". Easy enough to change your cards and web site to offer "design services" without using the term "engineer" or "engineering". It's not like medicine where the act of practicing medicine is restricted. It is too hard to specify what is "engineering" vs. just design so the laws typically only cover how you word what you do.Mox nix. Beat the bureaucrats at their own game.I'm sure the politicians can't point to problems this law will solve. It's the mom and apple pie sort of thing. Everyone is for law and order. Most engineering segments that actually have health or safety implications are already covered by regulations requiring special certification like designing bridges. I don't think you need an engineering degree to design a vacuum cleaner, at least not the ones I've used.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 05:07:59 am
content: If you have to apprentice to an registered engineer for four years to become a registered engineer, how did the first one get registered?

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 05:17:00 am
content: Protectionism seriously?Show me a Lawyer in any country I can think of that can put out their shingle without qualifications. Pick your profession and pick your country but before giving 'professional' advice you had better be a professional IMO.Stick to sorting out the USA's paid fake Doctorates, Diplomas and such crap before you critique another trying to raise a standard.

author: GodIsRealUnless DefinedInt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 09:34:22 pm
content: Such inconsistencies and irrationalities are likely not the result of rational or evidence-based policy responses to real risks. Indeed, legislators rarely create licenses at the behest of consumers seeking protection from a demonstrated threat to health and safety from an occupation. Instead, they most often create licenses in response to lobbying by those already at work in an occupation and their industry associations.The idea that an industry would ask to be regulated may seem counterintuitive, but it makes sense given that occupational licenses primarily benefit licensed workers themselves. In serving as a bottleneck on entry into an occupation, licensing restricts the supply of practitioners, allowing those who are licensed to command more in wages and prices for their services. This effect has long been known to economists, starting with Adam Smith, who observed in 1776 that trades conspire to reduce the availability of skilled craftspeople in order to raise wages.I worked for 10 years in Australia from Melbourne to Sidney and Canberra. I already knew about the electricians limitations for doing your own wiring and coming from a non protectionist "speed bump" country, I was curious and opened up the wiring covers over switches and circuits in homes I rented. I was shocked at the absolute cow manure quality of the work I saw inside. I am sure it met the country's regulation but it did not impress me and left a bad impression in me on a whole for that whole licensed occupation racket. The worst racket though was in automobile licensing restrictions where you had to take your car to a licensed state approved shop to get your annual sign off. The amount of racketeering I saw where parts that were fine were said to be bad and needed costly replacement "bribe" to the auto mechanic business in order to purchase your sign off on registration was absolutely disgusting.So yes, I stand by protectionist as my statement.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 09:56:45 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on March 16, 2021, 05:06:01 amThis will not make you eligible to stamp drawings if work in construction for instance. You will be out of any official approval business. Not being a registered professional engineer will severely limit what you can legally do. So yes, that means a lot.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 11:14:45 pm
content: The State regulations in the US define and qualify a “Professional Engineer” or “P.E.”. Many processes require a signature of a P.E. in the relevant field, such as structural engineering. See nspe.org for the US.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 12:25:39 am
content: "Protectionism" usually covers rules that shield a nation's domestic industries from foreign competition.The kind of credentialism being discussed has roots in medieval Europe's guilds. Its function is to keep rates high by restricting supply, but in a globalized world mostly tends to further push productive capital offshore.In that way it has the exact opposite effect from protectionist policies.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 12:38:13 am
content: Quote from: GodIsRealUnless DefinedInt on March 16, 2021, 09:34:22 pmLets deal with the last paragraph first. Engineers do not typically design house wiring. Electricians follow the rules and of more recent times a tighter series of inspection requirements. In the case of larger commercial buildings this it is more 'normal' to have an Engineer involved to run Calculations on wiring but and layout. They still have ZERO to do with the installation. So lets leave the assorted tradies out of this as they have no need of your long distanceWe might also leave out that in your 10 years in Australia you never learned the correct spelling of SYDNEY.Our peak Engineers body which covers ALL of the main brancheshttps://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/Engineering-Registers/Victoria-Registrationis anything but exclusionary in my first year of Uni over three decades ago they handed out FREE student memberships to ALL students. This included the then minority at the time of foreign students studying with us. Read the link above and you will see that peak body anything but anti and they are a stakeholder in discussions.Australia is also NOTHING to do with your 1776 rebellion we have our own path from the invasion of this country and are still a work in progress like the USA. Your Specious Argument citing craftspeople pre date Engineering as a study and science and date to guilds and such of earlier times. They have little to do with the 21st century and the now established Engineering.Feel free to READ the actual website of the State I live in and the incoming regshttps://engage.vic.gov.au/engineers-registration#:~:text=Overview,a%2Dhalf%2Dyear%20period.It is NOT PROTECTIONIST at all if you meet their qualification requirements and standards then you are able to be INCLUDED.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 12:56:01 am
content: Quote from: Bud on March 16, 2021, 09:56:45 pmThat's rather a "duh". If you were doing that kind of work before this law it means you were already registered or approved in some way. Likely nothing has changed and these people constitute the set of preordained registered engineers who don't need to run the gauntlet to get registered.I believe the objection is to those who have been doing design work as "engineers" and now won't be able to use that title, "engineer". I recall hearing about someone who got in big trouble in Texas for this sort of thing. He had worked as an engineer for years, moved to Texas and got charged with violating the law that required being registered to do "engineering" work. All he needed to do was say he was simply doing design work, not engineering, but they caught him because he didn't know...As I said, mox nix.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 03:09:40 am
content: I think it goes back to the early 1800's when anyone could claim to be an engineer. Buildings and railroad bridges etc. collapsed and it was a problem back then, nevermind the Sydney Opal tower fiasco today. Australia is likely trying to copy other parts of the world with the Act.The disadvantage is high membership dues ($415/year) in order to support the fat and overhead of a bloated association that largely does nothing for the profession beyond registration and licensing. Here the engineering association keeps trying to include software engineering, "stamped" so you are responsible for software that can cause injury or loss, even though software correctness is not provable.As I've said many times, there still is a problem in the profession in that anyone can call themselves "engineering manager" or "engineering director" etc. If you use the word "engineer" in your job title or company's website for services provided, the engineering association will come after you unless you are licensed and have a Permit to Practice.Many times engineers have non-engineers for managers who push around the noobs and direct them to skirt around safety and exploit loopholes, to rush a project and save money.Whenthe bridge collapses,they go on a head hunt for whoever reviewed and stamped the drawings, as they should. But when the planes crash, nothing was really done for Boeing's corruption in the 737 Max's engineering.Engineers are still the fall guy for corrupt leadership or a corporation that will not let them design/test properly. Tesla seems to be able to make mistakes with autonomous vehicle S/W and nobody goes to jail there.So registering engineers will not really guarantee safe buildings, bridges, products etc. Defective/corner-cutting manufacturing can also generate unsafe products.Registration would be a small step forward at great expense to engineers. But still zero consequences for the CEO and other usual crooks.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 03:32:14 am
content: Don't confuse 'voluntary' membershipor notin Engineers Aust with this State Government registration. EA is and is always likely to remain independent and not a requirement of the Government scheme application. I only included their seemingly broad support for this scheme going forward for context. As we are a Commonwealth of States in particular it is already Difficult for a National Body to try and act in any oversight role at State level.There is no final cost per year and no application form or requirements in print yet for the Victorian plan and as far as I am aware only Queensland has adopted this sort of schemehttps://ablis.business.gov.au/service/qld/certificate-of-registration-as-a-registered-professional-engineer/4331Quick look at the costs of a few hundred $AUD is less than a lot of other Professions for Government Registration. Even the Sparky in Qld gets slugged $400+Those most effected by the Vic proposal will be sole Engineers as they need to comply individually, companies will not require individual employees to be Registered members of the State scheme but the Companies will need to apply.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 05:12:41 am
content: I guess it depends on what "engineer" means. I can call myself an engineer and indeed my employer does. What I can't do is call myself a P.E. or do the things that require a P.E. to do.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 05:35:22 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 17, 2021, 05:12:41 amThe terms and the regulations vary of course. It all depends on where you choose to commit your crimes.

author: Kerlin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 05:56:41 am
content: I my self am a non degree Electronics Engineer, thrashed every degree carrying engineer I ever met in my time.One of my methods of gaining contract work was to pick up their uncompleted projects and demand a high price for finishing them, worked many times as the poor manufacturer was often holding an overdue purchase order from a buyer.In those cases just show up with a completed prototype and name the price.Your assuming that degree people have a good name in the Electronics industry, I would check on that.At the moment employers prefer non degree Engineers, as they have the biggest name in the Electronics industry.As one of my overseas distributors used to say to when he wanted to put some one down " He would have to have a degree that fellow, wouldn't he ?".These regulatory type moves are not competitive and dumb they only retard the country as others always find very very simple ways around them.There are other qualifications of much much greater value than a degree.If you are good at what you do you don't need protection, you'll be in high demand.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 06:10:30 am
content: Quote from: Kerlin on March 17, 2021, 05:56:41 amThe best people to work with in 'some' circumstances when I had a real job were Diploma Qualified Engineers with mining or heavy industry backgrounds that started on the floor or underground. The level of BS dropped and the ability to 'yep, sure, we can make it work' went up. When I was starting Engineering way back when the last of the 'Engineering Cadetships' were going the way of the dodo too. These were an Apprenticeship, sweeping factory floors and starting a Degree at the same time. Sad but these would result in competent humans and better Engineers at the end.That does not make these rules a bad thing but what it will likely mean in time that tagging yourself 'Engineer' in Oz won't be allowed. Your working in the Engineering field is not likely to change for you just the title (still not happening tomorrow or even next year) unless you go out and try and hang your own shingle out. The reality is most 'Engineers' in Oz tended to finish up managing people not nuts and bolts jobs so does the tag 'Engineer' matter?

author: Kerlin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 06:19:21 am
content: OK I will spell it out - It wont help I have seen some who simply employ a qualified person for the same price as a cleaner.We are in a global environment now and we better wake up to it.What happens when you employer insists you sign documents on the basis of some of your licenses and you know the job doesn't comply?You are personally responsible for the life of the product/job, are you sure we want that.In the days when I was applying for jobs with employers I put all my licenses on my resume and never mention them again , because I have had that experience before.

author: Kerlin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 08:08:30 am
content: Ah ha had a brilliant flash over dinner.I been around to long and and have worked it out.Say, just saying only, there is a mythical place called the land of Oz. You know the wonderland where Alice lives.And in this land sit two people in their ivory castle.Things are not too good in this fiefdom and things need fixing fast. There is a big event coming up in November.Person M: How are we going to fix this, think the normal way will be OK ?Person X: Yes that one always works.Person M: Good, I think this time I will do it by making a regulatory change to actually cause a perceived lack of skilled labour and then we will make ourannouncement.Person X: Yer that’s puts a good twist on it. All the engineer types will think they are getting something out of it. Haha wait till they see what we do.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 02:37:09 am
content: Apparently from the 1st July it's going to be illegal in Victoria to do any electronics design work.Jon Oxer talks about it here in a live stream here:

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 03:59:52 am
content: QuoteQuoteSo there is to my read nothing that will stop Electronics design work. Like is current plenty of Techs and non qualified people do 'design'. It is also not an instant timeline it is phased in.I fail to see anything here that is an issue other than providing 'professional Engineering services' when not being qualified and registered. There is nothing in the proposed regs stopping anyone from developing X product.Quote

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 04:00:44 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2021, 02:37:09 amStirring up bullshit?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/professional-engineers-in-victoria-must-now-be-licensed/?allElectronics design work is not part of those law changes.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 04:11:27 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2021, 02:37:09 amSix minutes in and he still hasn't started talking about it. Where in the two hour video does this happen?

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 04:16:50 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on March 21, 2021, 04:11:27 amMuch as I have a lot of time for Jon he has done 'paid Engineering work' as part of his income as a sole operator without a Degree so he has a vested interest in complaining about the Regs. Skill and knowledge wise he would run rings around 90% of degree qualified people but he lacks the bit of paper.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 05:08:43 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on March 21, 2021, 04:16:50 amSo you are saying he has done engineering work, but he has never done electronics design? Shame, he sounds like he should be good at it.Until someone explains exactly how the regulations define "engineering work", I don't think we should get too excited about it.Even so, there are no small number of nurses who could serve as doctors for many purposes, but do you want them prescribing drugs they have no training about? Or performing surgery?Regulation may stop a small number from hanging a shingle who could do a good job of most things, but when being qualified is important don't you think regulation is important?

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 05:14:06 am
content: The bulk of what he does is design work. I would call him prodigioushttps://www.freetronics.com.au/is 'some' of his design work and some more herehttps://www.superhouse.tv/products/It is the sole operators like Jon that might feel some impact from the regs due to a lack of qualifications. People like Kerlin will most likely come under the umbrella of the companies they work from and as such nothing will change apart from likely the job title.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 06:22:57 am
content: I don't think you grasp my meaning. It will be hard to draft legislation that will have any impact on his work as long as he doesn't use the word engineering... literally I expect. That's how it is in Texas. No restriction on the work being done, just on using the title Engineer. I have a masters degree in EE. But I can't call myself an engineer or offer to do engineering work in Texas. I can do all the design work I want, just not with the name "engineer".I find it uniquely two faced to say an person can't work as an engineer without meeting the requirements... but companies can hire people who are not registered and let them do "engineering" for the company. I wonder if that extends to contract work where you work for an agency that hires you out? Technically you work for them so in that case you might not need to be registered if the company is. Strange. This only makes sense to a politician.Do people in Australia have any more say in government than we do in the states? I expect this is something that was pushed by companies and has no impact on the typical person, so it sailed through government.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 06:44:43 am
content: Have a read of the links from the thread. Giving 'Professional Engineering advice in certain Engineering Fields' is the issue not what you call yourself. If you don't meet the STATE government regs and have bit of paper of approval then you cant give that advice. To get that bit of paper you need to be a Qualified Engineer, in Oz like most of the world this is a four year Degree. There is no ambiguity here this is one follows the other.This was not driven by Companies but as stated it does have the Support of the peak Engineering body in the country. That is also not to say Companies did not have input into the consultation process but they from the outside were not the driver of this legislation.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 06:52:27 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on March 21, 2021, 06:22:57 amMuch less say, we don't see direct voting/ballot measures/referendums. Also many of the politicians at local/state level are "party" stooges who just vote with what their respective parties internal power systems dictate.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 07:09:13 am
content: We also don't have as manyLobbyists with perceived power pushing agendas either in this countryThere doesn't seem to be anything partisan or even that political at play here and the chat fest has been going on for a few years before it became legislation so nothing rushed or rammed through that I can see.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 07:17:04 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on March 21, 2021, 03:59:52 amWatch the stream were he reads the regs. It's hard to not interpret any sort of even basaic electroncis design work as being that of a "professional engineering service". Like even designing a 555 LED flasher.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 07:18:58 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on March 21, 2021, 06:44:43 amAnd that enginering body has traditionally little to nothing to do with electronics design in this country. Which is why hardly anyone in electronics engineering is a member of Engineers Australia.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 07:23:56 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on March 21, 2021, 06:22:57 amWhat I predict will happen here is essentially nothing. Individuals will still do electronics design work, and companies will continue to hire electronics design engineers with zero shits given to what any legislation says.Most people and companies in the electronics engineering industry won't even know this legislation exists.It's only if someone reports them and they somehow make a big stink about it will anyone know it exists and starts caring. It will require case law judgement to figure that out and set any sort of legal precedence.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 07:27:31 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on March 21, 2021, 06:44:43 amThat's my point. They use a term "Professional Engineering advice". What does that mean? If you do design work, that's not "engineering", it's just design.Why do you say it was not driven by companies? How do you know that? Are you saying this was all about the "engineering body" who stands to be part of the process?I don't know what you mean by "from the outside". Don't know much about Oz, as you say, but politics in every other country in the world is very much shape and prodded by companies. There was a TV show in the future (not all that far actually) where the world was governed by corporations. Sometimes it feels that way now.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 07:32:04 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2021, 07:18:58 amThe last quote I pulled from the Vic Gov report.QuoteWould seem to be a fairly clear idea of intent on who/what it is NOT trying to capture. Engineers Aust when I went through Engineering had a strong membership from the 'Electrical' side of things and in particular in the area I was going to Uni in the Latrobe Valley. That same area most of the serious Electronics was handled by Techs rather than Engineers at the time. In my working life (when I had a real job) it was a mixed bag of Degrees, Diploma of Electronics (Techs) and even still a chunk of Diploma Engineers.The Legislation as I have stated isn't ambiguous Not an Engineer Not able to get the bit of paper to work as ..... What scope those self identifying as Engineers or working in that field can do is I think still open for some debate over the next few years.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 07:33:00 am
content: Quote from: Someone on March 21, 2021, 06:52:27 amMy 94 year old friend talks about being offered a job as the city or county "engineer" (forget which one) by one of his political friends. My friend is a mechanical engineer who knew nothing about civil engineering and was in no way qualified. On telling that to the guy the reply was, "That's not important". They just wanted someone in the seat who would approve the projects they wanted approved. I watch local politics here and I see the same thing. They approve thousands of homes to be built on farm land knowing the roads can't handle it saying they'll deal with that as it come, but we need to expand the tax base with the improved property values. Now they complain they don't have enough money to build more roads and everything is more jammed up than before.Politics is pretty much crap everywhere I've ever been. The sad part is they never seem to get voted out. People just feel like there's nothing they can do to change it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 07:49:20 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on March 21, 2021, 07:32:04 amAgain, watch the video. It is reasonably clear that actual design work means you doing "professional engineering work", a technogist is just someone who implements that design.QuoteWatch the video.I'd capture the part if I can find it again.EDIT: Found it, around the 1:00:00 markFrom that it is very clear that professional engineer is the one that does the design work, and the technologist implements it.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 08:18:41 am
content: QuoteStill a work in progress as of the last report and that guidance information I can't find anywhere online.Even if we take the last snip from the video there is a complete omission of the design process of products, the three mentioned areas don't really cover it.Part of the issue is they are trying to shoehorn a lump of generally unassociated disciplines of Engineering into one bit of paper. Civil Engineering has close to Zero to do with Chemical (still not included) and or Electrical or Electronic Eng. Personally if I was an Electronic Eng I would be seeking to get involved not bitch about what 'might be'.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 08:43:52 am
content: And by Engage I don't mean the Engineering Registration part of it that is done short of removal of legislation. I mean Engage on the limits and intent of the legislation and how it more broadly impacts the overall industry/individual.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 04:03:07 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2021, 07:49:20 amI disagree. "In a production setting... A professional engineer designs the tools, processes and equipment required to turn raw materials into a desired product..."I don't believe I do any of that. I leave the tools, processes and equipment for turning raw materials into the desired product to the contract manufacturer. I simply specify what the final product is.If this is how the legislation defines engineering I think the legislators need to be regulated so they do a proper job. In fact, it would not be hard to apply these definitions to the process of legislation to require the legislators to be registered now! They are using raw materials, mostly words, turning them into thee desired product, laws and regulations, just not very effectively. Legislation engineers.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 04:03:53 pm
content: I think this is going to happen globally sooner or later. Electrical and electronic engineers and particularly software engineers have had it easy compared to just about any profession you can imagine. You can't be a self-taught surgeon with a successful track record and think that's ok. We put our lives in the hands of engineers every single day and that has to be taken seriously. How you can demonstrate competence beyond your employers satisfaction or shed door without recognised standards of some sort? It sounds like this scheme is well-meaning but a total fuck-up.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 04:18:30 pm
content: Oh well, registered slavery is a whole new level than casual slavery (AKA employment).

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2021, 12:34:01 pm
content: Quote from: Terry Bites on March 21, 2021, 04:03:53 pmI refuse to treat Electrical Engineering and Electronic Engineering as the same things, just because some basic things like Ohms law are the same.Electronics Engineer screws up a Thermal Resistance calculation - Black epoxy casing cracks open and smoke escapes.Electronical Engineer screws up a Thermal Resistance calculation - Transformer casing cracks open and smoke/flame escapes (plus resulting blackout).Yes there are areas of Electronics Engineering (EA) where lives are at risk if it fails, Critical Telecommunications hardware, Aviation, Robotics, Medical, Fire alarm/detection, and some others.Some of these areas are spelled out in the legislation, but then everything else is lumped in as well.Basic PCB design is unlikely to get anyone killed, NZXT's crappy PCIe riser card that catches fire came close though, though that was made in China.Yet it looks like even this would require 4 year uni degree + 4 years working under someone else + $415 a year to EA.End result, it's no longer profitable to design PCBs in this countryI'm yet to be (nearly) killed by anything electronic designed in the Western World, China yup lots of shit from there.Quote from: Terry Bites on March 21, 2021, 04:03:53 pmThe biggest fuck-up is involving Engineering Australia in this, you can't even join unless an existing member sponsors you.It's not an industry accreditation board, it's an Old Boys Club, it's a Lodge, it's a private school tie, it's a resume filler.What happens when an entire workplace with NDAs has no existing members, none of you can join ever ?Plus EA get most of their money from membership fees, yet the legislation appears to let them decide who Legally needs Registration.Biggest problem I see in Engineering is second guessing:a. The Manufacturer says this cladding isn't to be used on multistory buildings, meh is should be fine (Grenfell tower fire, and some in Victoria)b. I don't fully understand this unusual bridge design, but it seems ok (FIU pedestrian bridge collapse)c. Customer needs some extra holes in this PCB, just add them, no need to redesign the PCB (supplier to NZXT's PCIe riser card)

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2021, 11:36:09 pm
content: EA should adopt part of the US Model. We define things that can kill in the broad sense. You need a PE to do that work in my state.My former employer designated me, a non-degreed engineer, as a "Senior Field Engineer" on the business card. I got used to visiting Federal labs, and when asked a question outside of my scope, I simply said, "I'm not a PE in the State of XXXX and I cannot answer that question", Company Happy, Engineering Society happy, Customer happy most of the time. The company assumes the risk if I did work a PE should have done, and also I acquire part of the risk, and could be fined/charged if something went wrong. It is legal to do that here in most states. END OF PROBLEM.Can I design a man rated structure or a life support device. Nope. Can I suggest a design, yes. Can I build one and test it as a technologist Oh Yes, . Can I improve it prior to submission, Oh Yes.. Can I advise a PE about my opinion, yes. I did that often as a PE was my former supervisor. Once in a while He'd say something along the line of "justify It, Prove It, show me the math", so off to the library I go.Round here an Engineering Professor teaching in certain lines of work is granted an assumed PE status automatically for certain things while teaching. They also are honorary shop teachers.Usually I'd get good treatment if I went on site, and explained, I'm designated as an Engineer in my title, but really I'm a well experienced technician. Often I had a better interaction with scientists, facilities folks, health and safety, and regulatory then the full bred degreed engineers.Yet another employer once ordered me, when I trained medical service Biomeds on CT systems, that if a surgeon or radiologist declared an emergency, and I was on site, but an Engineer was not, to bring up the imaging system under repair to save a life if possible. Use my best judgment on the calibration parameters, and hand the system over to the Radiologist. Scary, but who would want some one to bleed out, compared to a possible mild X-ray overdose. The senior guy teaching the course muttered something along the lines of "Turn on the breakers, turn the key, input the password, select the procedure, click the mouse, and press the button if you need to." That made me shudder. The threshold was "Auto Accident, Bleed-out, or Something Equally Serious" and don't expect Good Samaritan laws to apply.In my present work,I've tagged out a system on a Engineer with a Degree (PhD) who made some design and procedural errors. He laughed about it later, after things were corrected. . That is my veto power as a Senior Technician. I had better damn well be right before I do it. Facility staff tell me my dividing line where what I do stops is anything inside or on mounted the wall. Even then they will ask me what I want and have observed.How you codify that is difficult, but it does work. I know better then to repair the elevators. I don't touch drinking water or power distribution, and I sure as heck do not repair the building stairs. For Biomed, I only work on research devices that do not support pets or humans, and are approved by the investigational committee. No Avionics, unless it goes on an experimental aircraft and is signed off by a designated examiner.If I think I'm working on something I need inspected, I pick up the phone at work and call. A PE pops in and has me explain what I have done,, and show my drawings. It is simple, and it works. I can even set the test for the CET, I'm grandfathered in due to my age."Safety of Life" is the dividing line for me.Steve

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 12:58:59 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 17, 2021, 03:09:40 amhttps://dilbert.com/strip/2001-07-29

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 01:02:00 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on March 16, 2021, 05:07:59 amAnd if the first one wasn't a recognised engineer, their apprentice's qualification would presumably be invalid, and so on down the line to today.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 01:21:36 am
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on March 22, 2021, 11:36:09 pmSo you were an old farmer?

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 05:12:14 am
content: Quote from: Kerlin on March 17, 2021, 05:56:41 amA degree is the start of your learning not the end.While I just have City and Guilds in electronics I have 40 years experience in design.And I still dont know it all or anywhere near it.Always, something new coming out and another field to explore.

author: penfold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 06:51:06 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on March 23, 2021, 05:12:14 amThere are an awful lot of "engineers" who don't share quite that same attitude. In the UK at least I've encountered many companies who are simply stuck in the '90s with a "well, we've always done it like that" mindset who mostly out of ignorance see, for instance, EMC and safety as something that can only be dealt with by sticking-plaster solutions rather than something that can be designed in from the start.. and the very suggestion of agile project management as some mortal insult!Equally, as much as a degree is only the beginning (and not even the best beginning for many of the best designer's I've worked with so I'm absolutely NOT siding with the "degrees only" camp), experience on its own counts for nothing unless there's some cycle of criticism-development-evaluation.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 08:01:35 am
content: Several things here this STATE legislation also covers Engineers making tall buildings and Bridges, those playing with Steam Turbines etc. There is a legitimate need that only those qualified do that work and they be held to a standard. It is completely out of order to have self claiming Engineers doing this sort of work.This is NOT about other countries and their laws or lack of and is not an exercise in bashing people without Degrees. As I mentioned earlier a lot of non Eng's run rings around 4 year Qualified Eng.This Topicis actually about one State (Victoria) in Australia following Queensland as the first State to go down a similar path so it is not at this stage an Australia wide thing although it will likely head that way over the next few years.If Electronic 'Designers' see they don't want in then they should be involved and make sure they are kept out and the way to do that is get involved in the process.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 08:06:55 pm
content: GNUARM mumbled:"So you were an old Farmer"I guess I need a name change at EEVBLOG to "Old Farmer", I actually like it... No mods, no, but I thought about it...Steve

author: DeanA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 12:22:37 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2021, 07:23:56 amProblem comes in when specifications and contracts start being written which request signoff by a Registered Professional Engineer.We have already seen this happen in Qld, for example this clause is in a TMR Specification for a Qld electronic speed limit signs:"Technical Specifications and certifications of the VSLS and/or VSL/LCS components(signed by the Contractor’s RPEQ) must be submitted to the Principal via the Administrator forverification prior to manufacture. These components include the group controller, sign face, LEDs,LED matrix boards, pixel arrangements showing horizontal and vertical pitch and total number ofpixels, power supply, communication ports, cable termination, enclosure and mounting accessories."So employers that do this kind of work will start looking for "Registered Professional Engineers" to employ.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 03:00:12 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2021, 07:49:20 amThe first column includes a lot of stuff that Engineersdon'tdo.The "raw materials" are processed in factories by people who may be Physicists, Chemists, Metallurgists, "Technologists", & maybe, even Engineers.(Along the way, before the factory, others come into it :-, like various flavours of miners, who are probably from around Certificate level, to Mining Engineers, to, again, Metallurgists, but let's ignore that part).Some of the EE's "raw materials" are completed devices from semiconductor factories, others from places that make resistors, capacitors, inductors, etc.Some of the physical hardware comes from metal extrusion factories, some specials are made up by "Engineering Works", who will include in their ranks, specialists in casting, machining, & so on, including a few Engineers.Going from the "raw materials" to the finished product hasn't been how things were done since back in Da Vinci's time-------& he was a sculptor, not an Engineer!The "Maintenance" column, though probably fairly valid in Civil Engineering, is Bollocks for Electronics "out in the wild".Hoping not to insult anyone, I'd like to point out that, in my long experience, EEs in general were very poor at finding faults in equipment-------------it isn't their job!The same is generally true with Automotive Engineers.The M.I.A.M.E. up on your car repairer's wall doesn't mean they are degree holders.Unfortunately, at least with Electronics, TAFE has been so dumbed down that the so- called "Techs" being turned out are just marginally more effective than the guys answering the phone & reading off a script.The idea of a qualified Boss & a lot of "arms & legs" running about doing their bidding seems to be the ideal of the MBAs, & the like, running today's industry.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 04:52:09 am
content: I was just thinking about how insurance agents are licensed in the US state they are in. Some of our states are not so large. I have property in two states and was looking at a property in a third, all within some 70 miles of each other. I could not find a single agent that could cover all three states because of the licensing issues.Sometimes I think we go a bit overboard with the licensing thing. You need a license to do many professional services that are a lot less technical than electronics work. Here a license is required to cut hair or do nails. i don't know what prompted this idea really. There must have been a series of hairstyling fatalities and someone in the government said, "The carnage must end!"Have any of the politicians sponsoring this bill explained in any clear terms why they felt it was needed? Was it just vague generalities or did something specific happen?

author: srb1954
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 11:26:03 am
content: Quote from: GodIsRealUnless DefinedInt on March 16, 2021, 09:34:22 pmThat was also my experience with Australian auto mechanics falsely claiming that parts with extremely minor defects had to be replaced before they would sign off. They also went further than that by only pretending to replace the "faulty" parts and signing off anyway. They still took the money for "replacing" the parts though.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 03:03:07 pm
content: Quote from: srb1954 on March 24, 2021, 11:26:03 amIn WA, we've never had that rule, & we haven't had a great epidemic of accidents from "non-roadworthy" vehicles.A cop can pull you over if your car looks a bit rough, & do a quick check.You may get a defect notice, requiring you to repair it yourself, or get the car repaired, then take it to an examination centre, where, on payment of a fee, they will check your car.If it doesn't pass, they will list what is still wrong, so you can get that fixed.The examiner & the repair guy are not connected in any way.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 03:10:58 pm
content: Had a licensed "Furnace Repair Contractor" out last winter to obtain a part late at night.He tried to tell my 88 year old Mom that her gas furnace was emitting too much Carbon Monoxide and it would have to be condemned on the spot. His Co meter was reading alternately 000.01 and 000.00 with Bit Bobble. He tried to force the issue, saying he would have the county condemn the furnace in the morning as we had >100 ppm Co2. He was standing in my basement lab at the time, trying to tell a university Senior instrument Tech I had a Co problem. That and we had cracks in the cast iron burners, which really just was some mild oxide. I Went out the next day, bought a fiber camera, took a picture, emailed the 50 year old burner's pics to the county. NO Cracks, and County was damn impressed with the quality of the burner.Furnace is on the original Honeywell gas valve, too..All I've had to do is a new belt every two years, an Anticipator every three years or so, lube the fan bearings , a few new fan motors and a few pilot thermocouples.All I needed was a fan belt. He wanted 6K USD on the spot for a new furnace in the morning. At Christmas...There are now ALL possible spare parts for the furnace setting beside it.Standing in a home lab that would make some folks in the TEA thread cry with it's rich diversity, and trying to condemn an old Ladies furnace on false evidence. He hammered Mom till she was in tears trying to convince her I was wrong. I could not get him to leave. So I woke up his boss. Fireworks ensured. I take good care of her...Licenses are needed in some circumstances, but they should not be a license to steal.Steve

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 03:44:00 pm
content: One reason for licensing is that the county can revoke the license for good cause.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2021, 07:46:37 am
content: A hapless bloke fell victim to the flood waters in Sydney. The news here and elsewhere are referring to him as a software engineer.Quotehttps://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9399457/Inside-phone-call-student-just-drowned-car-floodwaters-Glenorie-NSW.html

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2021, 08:26:30 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on March 24, 2021, 03:44:00 pmAs well as for any other reason. You can't fight city hall.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 12:28:01 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2021, 07:18:58 amFirstly, that is because we are a minority, even in the engineering world. Secondly, we are well under the radar with public understanding of what an electronics engineer is. We are nobodies except to those who understand and value our services.I qualify to be a member of Engineers Australia (I have the engineering degree), but my money is much better used elsewhere quite frankly. Not ever being a member has not impacted my career or opportunities in any way - EVER. The $ savings over the years is enough to buy a great Agilent oscilloscope and spectrum analyzer.From the EA website: "Membership with Engineers Australia will accelerate your career and reward your hard work."I think the triple A's have a bigger impact to accelerate a career: Aptitude, Attitude and Ability.