Where to start with first perf board. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 02:44:26 pm
content: So my next challenge is to convert this:To the perf board at the bottom of the photo. Then get it + fuses and switches into an enclosure. ( Don't think I need the heatsink on the 7805 to run the arduino and oLED, it just happened the only one I had was on that heatsink).I'm staring at it and wondering where I even start!

author: pieman103021
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 02:56:30 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on January 03, 2018, 02:44:26 pmStart out by roughing out a layout.you can put components in in various arrangements, and think about which would be most convenient for soldering. Then, simply solder it all up. It seems overwhelming at first but after a bit of fiddling proto boards typically come together pretty quick.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 03:04:53 pm
content: Quote from: pieman103021 on January 03, 2018, 02:56:30 pmThe daunting bit is that I don't have duplicate components for everything, so my reference breadboard has to come apart first. Not all of it is schematic-ified. I have most of a schematic, but not all, so maybe I should start there and even ask for a quick review of it on here.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 03:06:03 pm
content: As you're using tripad board, you have to get the placement right pretty much straight away or it's hell to fix later. If it was plain matrix board, life is easier actually because you can just bodge wire anything you got in the wrong place.My strategy (for stripboard /padboard):1. Get some 5mm squared paper. Each cross is where a pin lands.2. Draw one of the ICs in the middle of the page.3. Draw components that are associated with it in-line next to it either side4. Draw the wires on to interconnect parts.5. Run power to where it is required from the ends.6. Goto 2 until done7. Build it8. Run through it carefully with DMM and continuity. Check for shorts/neighbouring pins shorted etc. "Wire and fire" usually results in fire.Tips:1. Bring wires that are connected to controls/power to edges if you can.2. Have an actual board next to you when you're designing things and some parts so you can check fit stuff.3. Make sure you leave plenty of padding for mounting holes.4. Put ICs in sockets and do initial power up with no ICs in sockets and check voltages at the pins to make sure you did it right. Saves a lot of pain.5. Don't worry if you fuck it up. I screw up one in every three boards and start again.6. Try and get FR4 substrate board if you can. The paper ones are shit.That's what I do anyway.You can get some quite tight designs out. Here's a stripboard design I did for a 3 pole CW audio filter:

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 03:11:13 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on January 03, 2018, 03:04:53 pmGrrr. I remembered why I don't have a full schematic. I only have LTSpice and not a lot of add on components. So I have bodge it and replace the 5V reference with a 5V voltage source, then it doesn't show the trim pin. I'm not sure I can be bothered importing suitable components to LTSpice today.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 03:31:29 pm
content: I do the layout for stripboards on Eagle (free version).1) Make your schematic in the usual way.2) Use 0.1" grid and make a rough outline of the baord. No need to draw the pads. You should know where they are. Use a dimension or other non-circuit line to mark important boundaries.3) The use schematic capture to be sure you have all of the components and route as usual, except the constraints on your routing are set by the pad arrangement. For example, avoid diagonals. I typically route in red, as the solder side is on the bottom. I will use a character like an X or bar (same layer as outline) to indicate a break in a string of pads or a no connection where one might be implied.Attached is an example.

author: nugglix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 03:48:58 pm
content: Might be useful:https://veecad.com/index.htmlContains the 3-hole strip board.Anyway: good luck!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 03:53:24 pm
content: DaveCAD is best for stripboard / matrix board layouts

author: nugglix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 04:01:53 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 03, 2018, 03:53:24 pmThanks for this elaborate argument.But I'm way to lazy to remove my post.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 04:13:16 pm
content: I actually tried to use CAD for about 2 years to design boards like that including veecad but it took much longer. Wish it did work because I hate rip up and retry on paper

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 05:04:42 pm
content: Are you ready for a laugh?Blue are capacitor links. Bright green are resistor links. Red are wire/solder links. Grey are links I have no idea how to route and (basphemy) might use Dupoint or solid core wire. Basically they cross chips or/and are diagonal.I know I could probably move things around and maybe dispose of using the "rails" for 12V and 5V (I did break the rails in places), but I'm not that fussy about having a few insulated wire jumpers across the board.I also have yet to add the NPN darlington configuration fan driver, and the fan header but there is space on the right hand side for them. I'm taking a break.I'll brace myself for the critique. Be gentle... first attempt and not an easy circuit to start with.

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 06:22:53 pm
content: Maybe try rotating REF02 180 degrees? Maybe that'll make routing easier. It's a bit tricky to follow (for me, at least). I'd probably move the circuit closer to the 5V regulator or the regulator closer to the circuit. Though you do have some local bypass caps.I've tried to use the perfboard layout CADs and I feel they are more trouble than they are worth.Not sure what program you used to make your drawing, but I'd take the advice of jpanhalt and try doing a perfboard layout in a PCB CAD software like Eagle or KiCAD. Set grid to 0.1" and try to run some traces (which will just be wires for you). The advantage of doing it this way is, your layout is tied to your schematic so you won't miss a connection and you can very easily move and rotate parts, as well lay track and delete track until you find a good solution.If you have never used any of these programs before, it's probably going to take 1-2 hours to get anything done, but it may be worth it as you will have some experience with PCB CAD, even if you don't want to get a board made right now.Check out Getting to Blinky 4.0:

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 06:44:46 pm
content: I can also do a bit of a hack and use two arduino digital pins to power the DS18B20. digitalWrite low to get 0V and digitalWrite high to the 5V, avoiding crossing the arduino for those.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 06:51:38 pm
content: The cad programs and schematic programs are great, but what always bogs me down in them is the component libraries. Adding symbols and pin maps and schematic models just takes so much time. It would only be practical if the software comes as default with a sensibly sized library of generic and not so generic components. Thought maybe I don't really need them for perf board layouts.I think I'll fudge this one the hard way, learn a lot maybe. I can accept link wire spaghetti though I will endeavour to keep it to a minimum.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 07:04:48 pm
content: I have never spent the time to learn something like Eagle or KiCad. They can be used to make really nice PCBs but the learning curve seems steep.So, I use ExpressPCB to make my PCBs and I use their schematic and layout software. It doesn't auto-route or anything fancy like that but it makes nice looking schematics and I have built some pretty dense PCBs.I like the old version of the layout software. Select ExpressPCB Classic...You can use the board layout software to just drop modules on a board and interconnect with a rat's nest. Just to see how things fit together. Or just review some of the more critical routes. Of course, the grid can be set to 0.1" and Snap To Grid turned on.One nice feature of the 'classic' version is the netlist that is brought over from the schematic. While the software won't auto-route, it will at least highlight all nodes on the netlist that are to be connected together.

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 07:30:00 pm
content: Well you could very well use a piece of graph paper, but making even slight changes can be annoying since you physically have to erase and redraw. (This usually makes me not want to change a design Ishouldchange because it's so much work to do so.)Regarding libraries, yes, it can be annoying with specialized parts. However, I don't see much in your circuit that is crazy special. You can just use the standard 0.1" header footprints for your Arduino, pots, etc. DIP8 is standard. That Bourns trim-pot is standard.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 07:35:06 pm
content: Looking at your breadboard (@paulca), I am virtually certain that every component on it can be found in Eagle's libraries or constructed in very short order based on its datasheet and using library footprint (aka package).The biggest mistake I have seen people make is to think that the "symbol" is actually important for making connections. That is, it has some magical electronic properties. It doesn't. A square, rectangular, or other shaped box with the same or greater number of pins than you plan to connect is all that is needed. I have even done hydronic heating/plumbing diagrams with the schematic editor.What is important in doing a layout is the footprint. And for that, you will find either an identical example (e.g, dip 18) or be able to make something that will work by combining the needed number of pinheaders (assuming everything on your board is TH). FWIW, in the example I posted, the large chip in the left is not really a chip. It is a breakout board with a QFN chip and bunch of other components on it. All I needed was to identify where the SPI lines, GND, VCC went.John

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 08:50:33 pm
content: This is true. I use "default" schematic symbols all the time. The only things youmightneed to make are board footprints, which honestly isn't that hard either. In your case, however, it doesn't even look like you'll have to do that.Not trying to derail this thread into a PCB vs. perfboard debate,but, before giving PCB design a shot, I used to build up all my circuits on perfboard, mainly because I was afraid of PCB CAD software. Now, after learning how to use a PCB CAD package, I use perfboard only on the rare occasion that I need a circuit built within the same day. To me, it's just not worth the headache.I'm not saying you shouldn't use perfboard for this project, but once you learn how to use a PCB layout tool, you'll never want to do it again.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 08:58:40 pm
content: Agree 100% with TimNJ. The ONLY virtue of a perfboard today is timeliness. Perhaps that is why they seem to be harder to find on Digikey and other distributors.When that occasion arises, I use a TH plated perfboard. They are a little harder to find and a little more expensive, but they make construction easier and neater.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 09:20:56 pm
content: How much does it cost to have a tiny run of PCBs made? Like if you upload a PCB file, click a few options and ask for 2.I know it's cheap but how cheap? How long is delivery usually?

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 09:27:12 pm
content: You won't find a run of 2. Buy 3 to 10 and throw the rest away. With a little forethought, you can put rubber bumpers on the extra boards and use them as drink coasters at your next party. Let your guests take them home. Assuming you are not RoHS compliant, you solve the problem of hazardous waste disposal that way.There are too many to count threads on the cheapest board houses. Delivery runs from a little less than 2 weeks to 3 weeks. My boards, except OSHPark, clear customs in Chicago and that adds a day.John

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 09:29:12 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on January 03, 2018, 09:27:12 pmI'll do some digging, but are we talking about £1, £10 or £100?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 09:32:28 pm
content: I wouldn't do short runs on board houses. They can get bloody expensive unless you make the boards really small, even in China.3x 10cmx10cm boards, HASL, 2 layers, green soldermask ~ £10 best case. £30 if you want it before you've forgotten what it was for.And if you screw the design up, that's a 2 week lead time at least and a pile of bodge wires or a trip to the bin. If you do really small boards (less than 25x25mm) with OSHpark for example, you can walk away with 3 for £3 but that's still a month lead time to the UK - that's a good deal if you can wait.I've actually just bought a metric shit ton of UV LEDs and am going to do it in house with pre-sensitized boards. I reckon I can undercut China and do same day turnarounds for prototypes.One offs, it's not really worth making a board for. I regularly just cheap FR4 matrix board from China (bought in big packs from Amazon)Edit2 : add (better) link to boards:https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B074X2GDH2/

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 09:51:47 pm
content: Bloody expensive? I just got 5x 250x200mm boards made for $60USD (45GBP) delivered. About 7 days turnaround time. And those are BIG boards.https://jlcpcb.com/quote?orderType=1

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 09:59:44 pm
content: Yeah that's to US. It takes another week to get to UK at least, then we have to deal with duty and customs who can hold it for another week.Your 45GBP board turns up after 2-3 weeks with a £15 duty and handling charge on it.Not a bad price overall. Getting that done locally is at least £300 (I tried three places).Also not too sure about the quality of some of the random board houses that are popping up. Some fine traces and vias are mucked up. It's a minefield really.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 10:05:14 pm
content: Right, of course (@TimNJ). But did you submit some doodles on paper to get the boards? Of course not.That gets us back to the premise as expressed earlier that learning a CAD program is not productive. Rubbish. Learn a program. It is easier if the board house accepts its files directly (as many do for popular programs like Eagle). Even if it doesn't, you will need to generate Gerber and drill files. I guess one could write that code manually, but I can't imagine doing it that way.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 10:07:38 pm
content: It's certainly productive. I use kicad and have kicked out 6 complex RF and digital boards so far on it. But I'm building a product and I have no choice because some of the parts aren't suitable for prototyping with traditional methods.However for a one off it's not worth it. If I want a test fixture or adapter I'll bodge it on matrix board. If I have a one shot project, it'll go on matrix board or stripboard.All knowledge is built on layers of abstraction - it really makes a difference if you lay out a matrix board or something by hand first, then pick up some CAD software for a board.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 10:24:57 pm
content: ExpressPCB is NOT one of the low cost suppliers. But they are FAST! Two days to manufacture and whatever it takes for FedEx Express (two days). I usually order on Sunday and have my boards by Friday.At my age, I don't have what might be considered an attention span. I need to boards right now! If I have to wait weeks and weeks, I won't remember what they are for and I will have moved on to other interests. Instant gratification! That's what I want!Still, $41 for 3 identical boards without solder mask or silkscreen is not unreasonable:https://www.expresspcb.com/miniboard-standard/It's $61 for 3 identical boards with solder mask and silkscreen.4 layers with solder mask and silkscreen is $81 - I have used this feature for a couple of projects.Note that the Miniboard size is fixed at 3.8x2.5 inches. They will make other sizes but costs and time to manufacture change.In every way, this is an expensive service relative to the Chinese shops. But it works for me!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 10:54:50 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on January 03, 2018, 08:58:40 pmOr if you're like me and have serious hand problems forcing me to avoid computer use. Paper+pencil+pen and perfboard is much more forgiving for my physical limitations. :/(Same reason 3D printers are nearly useless to me; I cannot afford to spend time designing 3D models.)

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 11:05:40 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on January 03, 2018, 10:05:14 pmI'm honestly not sure who you are directing this towards. To OP, I think learning a CAD program is one of the most productive things you can do, especially in the long run. As you progress, you're going to want to make something that you really can't do on perfboard. Why not start now? (That's my point.)Quote from: bd139 on January 03, 2018, 09:59:44 pmThat's true. I do forget that importing into other places can be a real nuisance. I guess how much time and money you're willing to spend is really up to the person ordering. For me, most projects I work on at home are slow paced. (i.e. I get to them when I get to them.) So, 2 day turnaround time is not essential, but that might not be the case for the OP.Quote from: bd139 on January 03, 2018, 10:07:38 pmI agree that simple widgets like test fixtures and adapters areusuallynot worth getting a board made for. I think that's because they are usually simple enough and don't have to be particularly rugged or aesthetically perfect. A simple test fixture probably doesn't take too much labor to get (the layout) right. There is definitely a point at which using perfboard no longer is a good use of your time.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 11:10:25 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on January 03, 2018, 10:05:14 pmOops, @TimNJ: That was definitely not addressed to you. Sorry for the ambiguous comment.John

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 12:58:29 am
content: Rotate the 7805 90 degrees and you won't have to cut that trace.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 04:27:52 am
content: All good info here. I wouldn't get PCB's made up for that - you could use this as an opportunity to get to know PCB software. The fact you're designing for use on tripad (the best kind of stripboard) makes it actually easier, since it puts a lot of constraints - you can't just put components anywhere. It'll get you accustomed to using the software, without having too much freedom to place anything anywhere.I use CAD for designing stripboard layouts. The trick is to minimize the number of 'jumpers' on the top. As with any stripboard/tripad ("Perfboard" is generally the stuff without any copper at all) you can put a wire from any hole to any other, but to try and keep things neat, often one keeps those jumpers in straight lines. That doesn't mean to say they all have to be straight, but it helps prevent it looking like spaghetti. I use Eagle, but any package will do so long as it shows different colours for top layer and bottom layer. The bottom layer is obviously your tripad, and you can make the strips/pads vertical, with the top layer, your jumpers, horizontal.Before I used CAD I would use graph paper - as recommended by a couple of others, with 5mm grid. Start with the IC, and remember, resistors can be 1,2,3,4,5.... up to 10 holes (0.1" on the board) between legs. Capacitors generally will only go 1 spacing or 2, for ceramic or electrolytic. You can start by imagining the strips vertically, then places your Arduino horizontally, and any sub circuits left or right of it.. then your "jumpers" will be mostly horizontal.I am unaware of any specific 'technique' for layout, I just seemed to do it the way many others do it, which says despite how it may seem it *is* rather intuitive.For years I kept seeming stripboard layouts done in software (mostly guitar effects) and eventually found the software (I think):http://bancika.github.io/diy-layout-creator/Seems pretty good. Not sure if it does tripad.Let me know if you want examples from Eagle.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 09:43:11 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on January 04, 2018, 12:58:29 amThanks. I'm spotting little optimisations as I go. As I don't need the full rail for 12V I can use the upper left side for the 7805. This then keeps the 5V rail to the left side of the board too, freeing the lower right for the 12V fan driver, if I need it.To be honest though I have smaller 5V voltage regulators in the post from RS. I don't think I need a TO-220 1A regulator to run a Nano and an oLed. A 100mA reg will do.I spotted I have 3 sub circuits which known small interface links. So I can simplify things by laying them out separately in vertical strips and then just need links between them.Unfortunately I have failed to design the "input select". This will need to be a separate board to allow the switch and header on it to fixed to the outside of the enclosure and provide a zener clamp to 5.1V on the external input. So, I either find a way to cut a small corner out of the only perf board I have, or I wait until the pack of 10 I ordered from china 2 weeks ago arrives!Also, the A1 sense line for the control voltage is in the wrong place. I want to take that from the top of the divider so it's 0-5V and not the 10:1 0-500mV where it is now. This then requires the 5.1V zener clamp to prevent accidentally overloading the Arduino ADC with 12V.All good reasons not to print a PCB at $$$.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 02:07:38 pm
content: Hmm. My pack of 10 perf boards arrived from China and I think they are junk.The pads don't take the solder. It melts but doesn't flow. By the time you move the solder round to the other side of the pin the pad lifts off the board and it's blackened. We are talking about 3 to 4 seconds of heat.I tried soldering a pin header and the pads lifted, tried a resistor and the pads lifted, tried joining a few pads with solder only and the pads lifted, shifted and made a right mess. I ended up at one point with a pad on the tip of the iron.Hopefully my original board is better, but I think these ones are for the bin, I can't see what they would be useful for other than making me angry.In fairness I think they were like $4 for a pack of 10. You get what you pay for.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 02:23:40 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on January 04, 2018, 02:07:38 pmAre they tinned, or bare copper?If they’re bare copper, try scrubbing them bright and shiny using scotch-brite pads and/or liberally applying extra flux to the pads before soldering.For future purchases, go for the double-sided, plated through-hole FR4 boards like these:https://www.ebay.com/itm/10Pcs-Double-Side-Prototype-PCB-Bread-Board-Tinned-Universal-FR4-2x8cm-5x7cm-/352100672753?_ul=CHThese are widely used by hobbyists now, and they’re great. (My only gripe: they use the same silkscreen for both sides, so the coordinates on the top side aren’t mirrored on the bottom, they’re flipped around and thus useless.)I picked a vendor at random, but shop around, as there are HUGE differences in price among vendors and package sizes. (For example, I got a 50 pack from one vendor for less than 20 pcs from another!)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 02:26:01 pm
content: P.S. What I do with the bare copper protoboards is when they arrive, I scrub them clean and then apply a coating of liquid rosin flux, which dries into a protective coating that prevents oxidation from forming.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 02:33:32 pm
content: Sounds like shit boards. The cheap bare copper ones are dicks generally.Take a look at the ones I suggested further up. They are matrix boards and have plated holes, HASL and solder masks. They come out really nice and are very easy to work with.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 02:47:49 pm
content: They are bare copper. I read the idea of roughing them up a bit first, I was looking around but I can't find any sand paper, I know I had some. Nor do I have any flux asides what's in my solder.As a beginner stocking the small things you use once in a while is difficult/slow to happen.One of my go-to suppliers has these:https://www.bitsbox.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2325They aren't cheap though.This looks like a useful kit to have:https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUSTOR-36-Pieces-Double-Sided-PCB-Board-Prototype-Kit-5-Sizes-Universal-Printed/222685399738?epid=5006306082&hash=item33d9158aba:g:5p4AAOSwG2tZ6b1wThese look cheap, £2 each.https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Double-Sided-9x7cm-Breadboard-PCB-Strip-board-Printed-Circuit-Prototype/272924332293?hash=item3f8b8ed105:m:mGBHofwxVQFQk4akotiBHfQIs scotchbrite not just the same as the green abrasive pads you get on dish washing sponges?And do these work?https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kester-951-10ml-Non-Clean-Soldering-Flux-Pen-Rosin/152685727061?epid=2275685155&hash=item238cc74d55:g:y1sAAOSwJx1ZqRJe

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 02:54:33 pm
content: Just use a dish washing sponge. That’s what I use

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 03:14:58 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on January 04, 2018, 02:47:49 pmThe perfboard kit with the box looks great.That flux pen is too cheap; it’s probably junk. I’d buy this rosin flux pen instead:https://www.amazon.co.uk/MG-Chemicals-Rosin-Flux-Pen/dp/B0080X79HGThis is the no-clean version:https://www.amazon.co.uk/MG-Chemicals-Clean-Flux-Pen/dp/B01ELUI19QIt’s cheaper, but rosin flux is usually a bit more effective, and desipite the name, cleaning rosin flux is optional.This is the bulk rosin flux for refilling the pen, or brushing onto bare copper boards:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chemicals-835-100ML-Corrosive-Conductive-Residue/dp/B01M7TL9JLAnd the bulk no-clean:https://www.amazon.co.uk/MG-Chemicals-Clean-Halogen-Bottle/dp/B00RYTD0T8In addition to liquid flux, I really like having this around:https://www.amazon.co.uk/MG-Chemicals-Clean-Paste-Syringe/dp/B00425FUW2The paste (even no-clean) is more aggressive than liquid, and the Vaseline-like consistency helps stop components from flying around.(Standard warning: DO NOT buy water soluble flux, nor solder containing it. It paradoxically requires fairly advanced cleaning methods, and any failure to remove it fully will lead to corrosion. It also must never be used on stranded wire. Go with rosin or no-clean flux.)Yes, I mean the green pan scrubber thing. Doesn’t matter whether it has a sponge attached or not. It’s not too picky, just something fine-gritted. You can use steel wool, too, but then you must make sure no steel filaments remain, lest they cause a short. Fine sandpaper would work, but I think would be a lot more laborious than the scrubber.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 03:29:57 pm
content: This is my go to flux pen:https://uk.rs-online.com/mobile/p/solder-flux-removers-cleaners/3217289/(rosin no clean)Plus a can of this on standby:https://uk.rs-online.com/mobile/p/precision-cleaners-degreasers/0567890/Add VAT. Next day delivery via parcel force is free (even on stupid cheap items like 20p)Scourers = Tesco value

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 03:41:12 pm
content: I'll have a crack at cleaning one of these bare copper boards up with the dish scuber LOL (or brillo pad!) See if it makes it easier to solder.Those flux pens are emm, expensive, long dispatch time or don't ship to Northern Ireland. The RS components one looks about the best option. I'll add it to the list.I got a little over familar with ebay (again) and bought the 36 piece board kit + a 10 pcs set from China. I need a time delay lock on my ebay or paypal.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 03:53:15 pm
content: I've got about 10 things winging their way from China. Completely agree!(I can't remember what half of them were either)

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 04:02:58 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 04, 2018, 03:53:15 pmWorse is when a package doesn't arrive. I found one in my ebay history from October, still not arrived. It was like $1.30 for 3 USB micro breakout boards. It's not even worth the time chasing them.So I got a circuit working on the crappy pad board. It's a really complex circuit, you understand:The other side shows just how crap these boards are. Even after scrubbing, which helped considerably and made a notable change to the colour, the pads still lifted about every 3rd joint. I ended up just blobbing the wire together in the end. Sorry about the focus.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 04:11:02 pm
content: CongratulationsIt's always good to start simpleWhen I did some SMD boards recently I chickened out on assembling them (first attempt) so I did a 555 flasher board first for practice:https://i.imgur.com/gsXXMRl.jpg?1

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 04:28:15 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on January 04, 2018, 04:02:58 pmHow good are you at soldering? How long is it taking you to make a joint? Phenolic boards can’t take as much heat as FR4. What temperature is your soldering station set to? It might be worth a try to turn it down. I use those cheap boards, too, and with leaded solder and the iron set to 300C, no troubles with pads delaminating.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 04:40:12 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 04, 2018, 04:28:15 pmI'm fairly average, but have no trouble soldering onto proper PCB. The 47 amplifier thread I managed to solder together in about 45 minutes, including placing the components and it turned out pretty neat and tidy.These boards just seem weird in comparison. I place the iron in one side at about a 45* angle and try and make sure it presses on both the pin and the pad. Then I feed solder from the other side, but the solder seems to melt and blob on one side and doesn't flow into a joint for a few seconds, when it does it seems there is too much solder sitting in a raised blob. Then I look and the pad has delaminated. If I manage to get it to solder without the pad lifting then it is sure to lift if I remelt that joint to make a link to it.I am only using a super basic Weller 25W iron, non temp controlled. The tip could use a bit of TLC, but it's fine. It could be better with a blade tip rather than the blunt conical point it has. It works fine for most things though.I did original use a heatsink rest for the iron on advice from a forum to stop it getting too hot, but to be honest all that does it conduct heat up into the handle and make it too hot to hold. So I stopped using it, except to cool the iron down before putting back in the tool box.EDIT: Would it make any difference if I did the joints in two passes. Pass one trying to tin the pad, then let it cool before doing the actual joint?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 05:34:23 pm
content: Yeah those cheap boards lift if you look at them wrong. Not sure what they stick the copper on with. Possibly spit! I can just about not kill one with my Weller TCP.What solder are you using out of interest?WRT to the iron, the basic red Weller types aren't temperature controlled. You have to be pretty careful with those as they will go way above the average 370 tip temperature and smoke the board. FR4 boards are much much better at receiving this sort of abuse.I'm trying out a sub £20 Chinese T12 which is temperature controlled when it arrives next week which is a cheap solution to these problems. I currently use a Weller iron as well (TCP) but that's temperature controlled as well. They are quite difficult to ruin a board with.Two passes is an option but if you successfully tin the pad and end up filling the hole, then you can easily write the board off fixing it.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 05:44:10 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 04, 2018, 05:34:23 pmYea about the solder. It's a ball (used to be neater) of unnamed, no-idea, off ebay 0.6mm flux core leaded solder.Iron is one of these:https://www.raygrahams.com/products/3270-weller-sp25l-soldering-iron-25-watt-240-volt.aspx?pv=2595&gclid=cj0kcqiavrfsbrc2arisafumcm-mcw3yxl2l5xstgjondmob8upat_uyhi34wt4znow9zesh5wtfq8iaaq9qealw_wcbShould I use the heatsink rest when working with stuff that likes lower temps? I think I can keep the time in the rest down to stop the handle heating up and take breaks if need to be to cool it. If I think about it the first few joints seemed easier, it was only after the iron got really hot that things started to go wrong.New temp controller soldering irons are about £120 for a decent one. That will have to wait a month.Maybe the IC strip board I have for the main project, also bare copper will be easier. Not sure I want to mess that board up experimenting, but I could test fit a component or two.The new tinned boards will be a few days. I was planning on finishing this project into a box by the end of my xmas holidays, but unless the boards arrive Saturday and I work at it all day that isn't happening.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 06:15:44 pm
content: If you make the iron too cold it will take longer to heat up the pad and then it'll lift because of cumulative heat. It's best to get the temperature exactly right.Keep an eye on this thread - the Chinese "T12" irons are quite well rated apparently and are temperature controlled and a lot less than £120...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/cheap-t12-clone-soldering-stations/Keep practicing - you can do it before SatI buy my solder off ebay as well. This is what I'm using but it's branded stuff:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EXPO-77598-REEL-OF-HIGH-QUALITY-110-GRAM-LOCTITE-MULTICORE-LEADED-SOLDER/222265194619?epid=1354628864&hash=item33c009b87b:g:3ugAAOSwqu9U5ODs

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 06:42:27 pm
content: Though there are exceptions, like bd139, the consensus here is that cheap solder (or the risk of eBay product being fake) isn’t worth the hassle. A $30 reel of quality solder will last you for years, and will perform reliably well.If solder is balling up even after scrubbing, then the flux in your solder simply doesn’t work well. (On pretinned things, which are much easier to solder, you probably just didn’t notice.) Get yourself some quality solder - there have been a few threads on this topic recently, so just look for those so we don’t have to repeat ourselves. I’m guessing good solder and a good flux pen will work miracles.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 07:11:10 pm
content: Indeed. If you have good solder you don’t actually need a flux pen most of the time.