USB-C charging law in the EU. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2023, 04:01:44 pm
content: What do you think about the requirement that a lot of electronic devices must be USB-C chargeable?To do so the BMS system as well as a boost converter is needed for devices that requires higher voltage than USB-C is capable to provide. I don't think it's a good idea to put all that circuitry in the device. I must rather have them in the charger.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2023, 04:19:46 pm
content: Law applies only to specific types of devices. It's very unlikely device that needs higher voltage falls under this law.QuoteWhat exactly do you mean by "charger"? Generally it's an extremely poor idea to move charging controller into a power brick. Wait until customer plugs some incompatible charger and your device explodes and busts in flames. Do exactly that if you want this to happenhttps://www.beckershospitalreview.com/supply-chain/melting-batteries-3-fires-prompt-recall-of-248k-insulin-devices.html

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2023, 08:43:33 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on November 09, 2023, 04:01:44 pmWhat would be examples of devices which the EU requires to be USB-C powered, and which run on higher voltages than what USB-C Power Delivery can provide?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2023, 10:48:51 pm
content: This EU press release has a list of objects that require USB-C charging:https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022/10/24/common-charger-eu-ministers-give-final-approval-to-one-size-fits-all-charging-port/Question: is that list exhaustive?Mention is made of a later deadline for laptops.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 01:52:38 am
content: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2022/2380/ojAnnex Ia.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 03:45:46 am
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on November 09, 2023, 04:01:44 pmUSB-PD goes up to 48V for the latest version. More than that and just putting an IEC mains input on the device would make most sense in most cases.Quote from: TimFox on November 09, 2023, 10:48:51 pmSeems odd to mention video game *consoles* rather than video game *controllers*. Are they trying to limit new game consoles to 240W of power use or was that a misprint?

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 04:05:38 am
content: Bunch of busy-bodies with nothing better to do.Why can't they just let the market decide how things are made? I smell a billionaire-wanna-be in the making here. Somebody is trying to reap some money. I don't know who, but somebody!

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 05:48:17 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 09, 2023, 08:43:33 pmThat was meant as a rhetorical question. The answer is "none". The regulation applies to mobile devices which are battery-powered; none that I am aware of uses voltages above 48V. So the question raised in the OP is a non-issue.Quote from: NiHaoMike on November 10, 2023, 03:45:46 amThe regulation applies to handheld, battery-powered video games -- Nintendo 3DS, Switch and the like.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 06:50:13 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 10, 2023, 05:48:17 amYes, note that from the directive, the initial scope was "radio equipment", and they kinda added all kinds of mobile/portable devices to the scope while still more or less classifying them as radio equipment. At least that's how I read the directive. Funky.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 11:18:18 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 10, 2023, 06:50:13 amWell, in practice rechargeable-battery-operated tablets, cameras, video games, navigation systems, earbuds etc. will include WiFi and/or Bluetooth functionality, so theyareradio equipment. Not sure whether a device without any radio interface would be outside of the scope of the planned rules, but I am not aware of any radio-less current product in these categories anyway.Frankly, I am only aware of one manufacturer who has not already migrated to USB-C charging ports, or has at least started the migration of new products from Micro-USB or barrel connectors a couple of years ago. So this seems to be largely a "Lex Apple" in practice.It's worth noting that the planned rules do allow products which only use wireless charging. Onlyifa product offers wired charging, it needs to provide a USB-C port for that (and supporting USB PDifmore than 5V are required). Products can also have further proprietary charging ports in addition to USB-C, which I have seen on some HP notebooks. (Not sure why though -- maybe HP still had an excess of fixed 19V barrel-connector power bricks in their warehouse?)

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 12:40:48 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on November 09, 2023, 04:01:44 pmBest thing since sliced bread. Generating a lot of unnecessary e-waste and having to carry around huge mess of random chargers was an actual problem which manufacturers clearly could not solve but chose to make worse. Good example case where legislation is needed. USB-C is very good. If your gadgetactuallyneeds something else (e.g., due to needing higher voltage than 20V available from USB-C), then the law does not mandate you to use USB-C (and a boost converter, for example).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 01:04:13 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on November 10, 2023, 04:05:38 amBecause as has been seen by, for instance, Apple - the market cannot be expected to self-regulate. Why have a different charging port? I like my phone, but there is seriously no reason for Lightning to exist any more. It's less capable and more expensive than USB-C.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 01:08:10 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 10, 2023, 11:18:18 amStill lots of cameras out there that don't have wireless functionality.Notably absent from the list are battery operated power tools, which rarely have wireless functionality. My opinion is that those should be required to have USB-C and/or an IEC mains input on the tool or on the battery unless they are IP65 rated or greater.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 01:13:24 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on November 10, 2023, 04:05:38 amBecause "market" has proven times and again to be shit at these kind of things, and the only thing that counts is customer exploitation.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 01:35:39 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on November 10, 2023, 04:05:38 amThen look at your healthcare system as example of how well "free market" works. Hint: no government pays nearly as much per capita and at the same time many manage to get free healthcare for every citizen. And even when it's 100% paid by patient it's still way less than insurance copayment in US.

author: thephil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 01:44:15 pm
content: I think standardizing on a single type of charging port makes sense for most small devices – no more bags full of adapters to keep around. I am not as enthusiastic with respect to laptops because the USB-C plug is small and flimsy. I expect the USB-charging port on my notebook to break earlier/more easily in comparison to the old style plugs that had a bit more material to them.Another, minor, downside is repair: I like to power defective devices from my lab power supply when tinkering with them. That no longer works with USB-C.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 01:51:00 pm
content: Quote from: thephil on November 10, 2023, 01:44:15 pmDepends on particular connector construction. IME more material/connector size has no correlation with durability.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 01:59:01 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 10, 2023, 11:18:18 amBut Apple started its USB-C migration back in 2012, and as of right now, all the mainstream products are USB-C. (Some older models that remain on sale as budget options are still using Lightning.)

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 02:00:47 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on November 10, 2023, 03:45:46 amI think if a console has battery charging in it, limiting it to 240W is a reasonable request. Think about a PSP or a Oculus headset, not a PS5 or Xbox.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 02:01:11 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 10, 2023, 11:18:18 amRight?!? My HP laptop included both the USB-C and barrel plug chargers. No clue why.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 02:02:37 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 10, 2023, 01:04:13 pmProbably because whenever Apple changes a connector — even if for very good reasons — people and the media whine about Apple changing the connector, as if it were something they did every 5 minutes. :/

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 02:03:04 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 10, 2023, 01:35:39 pmYeah, or just the phones in general. There never was "free market" in the meaning "you can build product as you like", the design of a simple phone requires complying to thousands of pages of mandatory legislation, everywhere; and it's not just about electrical and fire safety and EMC compliance, but also environmental and social impacts which is exactly under which the charging port requirement falls.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 02:27:06 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 10, 2023, 01:51:00 pmNot sure what you mean. Obviously USB-C is a fragile connector no matter how much materials you wrap around it. A slight vertical push on a plugged connector is all that us needed to bend and crack the mating part.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 02:34:36 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on November 10, 2023, 02:27:06 pmNonsense. It’s not “obviously” fragile, nor is it independent of the “materials you wrap around it”. Smart manufacturers use molded or milled slots in a thick part of the enclosure to mechanically guide the plug, so that it’s the enclosure, not the socket, taking all the force. This has proven to be very reliable.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 02:37:23 pm
content: You can get right-angled USB-C connectors (Garmin do one, for instance). If snapped/bent connectors get to be an issue there will likely be a big market for pre-bent ones. So far they are available but not common. And there are only two formats, whereas pre-C need four due to the polarized connector.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 02:45:05 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on November 10, 2023, 01:08:10 pmNo, just no. The power output of usb-c isn't up to the job in any case, for the bigger batteries and the requirement for fast charging, but apart from that, keep shitty, fragile consumer crap out of my workplace, thank you very much. Also that would require impractical increases of size for batteries or tools. No.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 03:28:15 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 10, 2023, 02:00:47 pmThe Switch itself is a good example: the USB C port supports fast charging, and if you connect it to the dock, also audio/video output, ethernet, memory, accessories. Controllers are either wired or with wireless chargeQuote from: EPAIII on November 10, 2023, 04:05:38 amAh yes, the good old times in which every phone maker and model had a different barrel plug and/or data connector with proprietary protocol for data transfert. Damn the EU and their memorandums that suggested manufacturers to adopt USB for power and data transferts or it would be mandated by law anyway. The world has truly suffered from that intrusion in the free market and its self regulation (it would have taken just a little more time, trust me)

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 06:03:57 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 10, 2023, 02:34:36 pmProven? Bullshit with capital B.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 06:33:38 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on November 10, 2023, 06:03:57 pmMany phones and tablets are proven to survive just fine with connector cycled every day and device dropped or pulled hard by the user with cable inserted. Unless it's SMT only and without TH mounting tabs most of USB-C female connectors will run circles around round charging connectors, most of other other large connectors, and especially full size USB A and B. When seeing broken USB-C and micro, people forget that large connectors that may seem more reliable do not get nearly as much abuse.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 06:45:52 pm
content: BTW I worked in mobile phone repair service for several years a bit more than a decade ago. And from repairing many thousands of phones I can say that micro USB connector itself was almost never damaged, even when ripped off the board (types with poor mounting). Also there were certain types of them with heavy TH mounting of which I haven't seen a single one damaged or ripped of the board. They were totally indestructible.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 06:51:03 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on November 10, 2023, 03:45:46 amDoes it meniton anywhere that you can only have one USB-C port for power only I can see how a 240W limit could easily be bypassed

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 06:54:38 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 10, 2023, 06:45:52 pmI keep seeing this argument about USB-C connectors yet despite handling nearly 900 (I just checked, 896) laptops with associated USB-C chargers and accessories this year alone I'm yet to find one that's got a broken connector.*edit* Also, a couple hundred phones with USB-C, still not one broken USB-C socket. A good number of screens mind...Really makes me wonder what sort of gorilla you'd need to be to wreck oneI have seen a couple of damaged Micro USB connectors in phones, I think they resulted from people forcing the plug in the wrong way round.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 07:50:20 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on November 10, 2023, 06:03:57 pmLMAO at your unfounded certainty.I didn’t say thatallUSB-C ports have proven to be reliable, just the ones where the port is well protected by a thick, precisely manufactured and aligned enclosure.P.S. The phrase “X has proven to be Y…” doesn’t mean ”proof” in the absolute sense; it simply means “X has demonstrated to be Y.”

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 08:04:31 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 10, 2023, 01:35:39 pmBad example. In the US, the healthcare system and health insurance industry have been heavily regulated since the era of FDR, and healthcare costs are significantly influenced by tort laws.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 08:11:30 pm
content: Quote from: vad on November 10, 2023, 08:04:31 pmEhhhh... I don’t think you can say that. Healthcare products are no more or less regulated than in any other developed nation. And the US healthcaresystemis fairly lightly regulated compared to other developed countries.Also, the effect of tort on the US healthcare system is not nearly as big as it’s usually made out to be. (I used to believe it was a major factor, but I’ve since come to learn this is not supported by the data.)

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 01:28:42 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on November 10, 2023, 02:45:05 pmWhat power tool charger you have that's greater than 240W? Only ones I can think of are the ones for cordless mowers, but that's already big enough for an IEC mains input to make sense. (And the ability to run either corded or cordless would be nice for the majority of cases where a large part of the lawn is easily within reach of an outlet using a reasonable length extension cord, but part of it is not.)

author: Icchan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 02:09:19 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on November 09, 2023, 10:48:51 pmThere only single thin ont hat category list that i'm even tad iffy about: digital cameras andvideo game consolesI mean... if they're portable and rechargeable... sure. But for PS5 or similar? Naaah... and I think the reason is that these rules apply only if the thing is RECARGEABLE or capable of running from max 24v 60W-100W supply or lower.I mean they're not idiots. Obviously not going to charge your EV from USB-C now are you? What they're trying to do is to reduce e-waste, and tons and tons of e-waste is proprietary charging and powersupply solutions manufacturers use for no reason what so ever.And this goes good ways to get that shit in line.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 03:49:16 am
content: Quote from: Bud on November 10, 2023, 02:27:06 pmI agree, and I dread when the USB-C connector on my phone or laptop fails. The Framework laptop allows the user to replace the USB-C module. My own laptop has *two* USB-C ports and both support bidirectional power, but later models only have one, of course.Quote from: EPAIII on November 10, 2023, 04:05:38 amSeparate adapters and charging systems do produce more waste, but so do batteries. I would have preferred that they charge a Pigouvian tax based on the negative externalities of disposing of the extra waste, including batteries, but I suspect this was not politically feasible.Quote from: JPortici on November 10, 2023, 03:28:15 pmThe USB-C PD protocol supports cryptographic authentication so manufacturers are still free to tie their products to their chargers. It was part of the standard from the very start. I predict nothing will change, only now the chargers will look like they should be compatible when they are not.With that said, my Samsung phone is incredibly picky about which USB-C chargers support "fast charging". It even pops up a message taunting me when an "unauthorized" charger is connected.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 08:18:16 am
content: QuoteSeems to defeat the point of mandating USB-C and, as you note, just adds confusion as to why your device isn't charging.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 08:26:01 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on November 11, 2023, 03:49:16 amYup, just like Apple have done for years.At least the USB-C crypto authentication is intended in good faith, unlike the Apple one which was always designed to lock out other manufacturers unless they paid to join the party.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 08:53:14 am
content: Quote from: Icchan on November 11, 2023, 02:09:19 amWord charging port means it's used for charging. If device has no charging capability this law does not apply. Also this is a press release, look into actual document where it's explicitly saidhandheldvideogame consoles. All the fuss over refusing to understand what it's all about.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 08:54:00 am
content: Quote from: CJay on November 11, 2023, 08:26:01 amThat is completely untrue: Apple’s USB-C devices are happy to charge from standard chargers.The sole exception is the very first USB-C MacBook, whose USB-C implementation followed the preliminary USB PD standard (the only version out at the time). For whatever reason, the at the last minute the USB Forum changed the voltages in the final USB PD standard, stranding that MacBook that uses a voltage unsupported in chargers built to the final standard. All subsequent Apple devices with USB-C charging are happy to charge with third party chargers.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 10:02:19 am
content: I do find it interesting that the company that pioneered the use if USB in the first place was one of the slowest to change thier chargers for phones. They are the ones that have forced the hand of the EU.The USB charging ports I often come across as designed for iPhones so don't support fast charging or even have the current to charge the phone in some cases. But that might improve with these regulations but I won't hold my breath.Let's just hope they don't go silly and start insisting every charger has to be USB.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 10:16:33 am
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on November 11, 2023, 10:02:19 amAs I said, they were reluctant to change because they already had the reputation of changing their connectors too frequently. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t…(But I am a bit perplexed that it took as long as it did, since they had already moved almost everything else to USB-C already. For me, it went from USB-C on my iPad being the weirdo among my Apple devices, with everything else using Lightning, to everything using USB-C except for the iPhone, with its Lightning being the oddball. Once I get a new iPhone, I’ll be able to just carry USB-C cables for all my devices, both Apple and otherwise.)

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 10:50:38 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on November 11, 2023, 01:28:42 amAny modern real power tool with a fast charger. Personal example would be my DeWalt fast charger that does an 18V 5.0Ah battery in 20 minutes. Then there's the DeWalt FlexVolt, not sure what the charge power is on those but it's going to be more than 240W. Pretty sure all the main manufacturers have a fast charger for their pro/pro-sumer grade tools.This is besides the point in any case, as these things are just too flimsy to survive more than a few days on any construction site I've ever worked on.NB: You septics call 18V Li-ion batteries 20V, for some reason.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 11:21:17 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on November 11, 2023, 10:50:38 amManufacturers call them so to begin with. It depends on what voltage you take, nominal or fully charged. Also if we start nitpicking, septics do not talk, they collect excrements.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 11:40:49 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on November 11, 2023, 01:28:42 amAs stated, any fast charger for modern size packs may exceed 240W or 5A. USB-C until recently was limited to 20V - you need 21V to charge an 18V pack. You're also now adding extra connectors to a device already equipped with all the contacts it needs.You can have a USB-C port on your toy drill you use to assemble Ikea furniture. There is no demand for such on serious tools.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 11:54:07 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on November 11, 2023, 10:50:38 amThe highest current Dewalt charger have is the XR12A, that's 12 Amps at 18V which can charge a 9AH battery in 45 minutes so that would seem roughly analogous to your 5AH battery in 20 mins.However, a quick cig packet calculation will tell you that 12 amps at 18V is 216W and, if you actually read the spec sheet of the charger, it only charges to 80% in that 45/20 minutes, a full charge will take a lot longer.For your reference and to help you not look silly in future, the power formula:P=VI

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 12:28:08 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on November 11, 2023, 10:50:38 amNote how I mentioned that IP65 or greater should be exempt, ruggedize it to at least that level and it wouldn't be required to have USB-C charging. That still leaves how to standardize the ones that do go that route, I suppose Qi charging would make sense for the smaller ones. For the bigger ones, some sort of standardized rugged connector would be the way to go.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 12:30:48 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on November 11, 2023, 03:49:16 amIt seems you were deep frozen in 2017, but hello again and welcome to year 2023! You know, that USB-C thing happened many years ago, and despite your warranted fears, none of that nasty stuff happened, and I have never heard anyone have any compatibility problems whatsoever with USB-C chargers and devices, which are everywhere. I'm very glad your prediction was wrong.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 12:34:31 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 11, 2023, 08:53:14 amWhy look at the actual documents when you can speculate based on completely made-up assumptions until cows come home? People love spewing bullshit like this. Just like the lightbulb lifetime conspiracy stuff when lightbulbs were still relevant. Me, I never understood this thing; there are so manyrealproblems everywhere that I can discuss that I don't need to make them up.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 12:39:20 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on November 11, 2023, 11:54:07 amSo that you don't look silly, maybe you should consider the full voltage required, not the nominal voltage. Due to reverse protection etc etc this is on the order of 21.3 volts. 21.3x12=255.6Though I will concede my charger does a 2.0Ah battery in 20 minutes, not a 5.0, that takes over an hour... d'Oh!Still makes no difference to the fact that usb-c is far too fragile to be of any use on a building site.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 12:42:25 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on November 11, 2023, 11:54:07 amTo help you not look silly in the future, that's 216Woutput, at 3V below the full charge voltage. To achieve that into the cells from a USB-C supply, you'll almost certainly exceed 240W. You'll also be duplicating all the charger circuitry in the pack as well as in the dedicated chargers (which people will want to use 99% of the time, because they're vastly more rugged, secure the pack, take multiple packs..).Power tools do not need or want USB-C ports on them.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 12:47:33 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on November 11, 2023, 12:28:08 pmDon't think I've seen any chargers or batteries with an IP rating that high, though I suppose there probably are some in specialised use cases. The requirements for ruggedness tend to be from a physical impact POV, and to some degree a tolerance for dust.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 02:03:46 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on November 11, 2023, 01:28:42 amFWIW, I found this one on Hilti’s website:https://www.hilti.com/c/CLS_CORDLESS_TOOLS_7123/CLS_CORDLESS_BATT_CHARGE_7123/CLS_CORDLESS_CHARGERS_7123/r13275404450Woutputpower, for a single battery pack!

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 05:14:53 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on November 11, 2023, 12:39:20 pmYour point is perfectly valid without going into such details you get all wrong and make yourself appear more stupid than you actually are.Having designed a few, I can confidently say that high-power chargers can not afford significant voltage drop (i.e., series diode), and also quick charging is something you can only do to a relatively empty li-ion cell, because already above 70% SoC or so the rate of lithium plating on the anode is a problem at high charging current. This is also why EVs start to throttle down fast charging from as early as 60%; your power tool charger most definitely does that, too, and the 20-minute time clearly is not from 0% to 100%.As all high-power chargers would be efficient synchronous buck converters - something like 97% is easily achievable, and actually economically viable because wasted power means heatsinking and larger device -, output current available to empty battery pack is higher than the maximum input power cable current rating suggests.... not by much, though; it just happens that your numbers you used trying to prove something are wrong by just that small margin - just barely. But quite obviously, if you look hard enough you will surely find a power tool which supports even higher charging current. What you are saying is obvious to everyone.And indeed, no one is forcing USB-C on your beloved power tools, this is obvious. You creating a strawman from NiHaoMike's random remark and fighting against it is utter waste of time.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 06:46:07 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on November 11, 2023, 12:39:20 pmNot sure I follow how USB has to be on a building site. Rechargeable drills and the like use plug-in battery packs, don't they? And those battery packs are charged from chargers that plug into mains (or, more properly, site mains). AFAIA, 'portable' applies to the drill and not the charger or batteries, so how is USB-C mandated for them?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 07:14:59 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on November 11, 2023, 06:46:07 pmNeither law has anything to do with power tools, nor they have charging port to begin will. A lot of fuss about irrelevant nonsense.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 07:37:09 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on November 11, 2023, 06:46:07 pmI have a battery powered screwdriver with a removable battery. It (the battery) has a USB C charging port built into it (the battery itself). So it can be charged from from a battery bank which has USB C power delivery and not necessarily a mains powered USB C power delivery charger, good if no mains power is available.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 08:05:37 pm
content: PlainName - I saw your post but you deleted it while I was writing a response ...Why did you pick Makita tools for an example of batteries that can't be charged with USB?Dewalt tools has an adapter that you can attach to your Dewalt battery, and it allows it to be charged via a USB C power delivery charger or battery bank. And it is also bi-directional.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 09:51:58 pm
content: QuoteJust a well-known professional brand. Dewalt is another, but it didn't make it to my fingers first, that's all

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 09:55:04 pm
content: But power tools are absolutely not in the scope of this directive as a few have already pointed out, why would you keep bringing that up?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 10:25:48 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 11, 2023, 09:55:04 pmhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/usb-c-charging-law-in-the-eu/msg5163339/#msg5163339

author: freda
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 11:10:03 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 11, 2023, 09:55:04 pmyeah but stupid knows no bounds!look at first I was enamoured with USB-C, I mean you could seek the plug blindfolded,I mean wow, with micro-USB you had the eye ball it, align it up, and push it in.So what's not to like about that?6months later the USB-C is broken! because that biscuit connector in the middle isreally really FRAGILE!The ease of plugging it in allows you to become complacent with it, not surprising thenit broke so easily, so more e-waste.I have never broken a micro-USB in years and years, i've got them on various rechargeable bike lamps and torches and more too, all still perfectly good.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2023, 11:41:06 pm
content: Tangentially related:Interesting video on looking at USB-C cables. They do seem to make the error of comparing Thunderbolt USB3/DisplayPort cables to USB2 cables, but it's still a fascinating insight into how these cables are constructed.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 02:08:55 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on November 11, 2023, 08:05:37 pmMilwaukee has something like that for their M12 batteries. It allows charging from USB and also operates as a USB power bank to charge other devices, but it uses USB A and micro USB instead of USB-C and PD. Unfortunately it does not support QC so it charges slowly.The battery life on my phone only lasts half a day if I am actually using it, so I have started carrying a tactical flashlight which also operates as a power bank. Despite both using USB-C, neither support PD and the flashlight does not support QC. Maybe in a few years, PD support will universal. Hahahaha, I crack myself up.Quote from: Siwastaja on November 11, 2023, 12:30:48 pmThere is still plenty of USB-C devices (most?) which do not support PD, and even these devices are playing the authentication game. My Samsung phone loves to complain about foreign QC chargers.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 02:41:09 am
content: Quote from: freda on November 11, 2023, 11:10:03 pmIt's pretty much the same kind of thin internal connector that in the micro-USB variant. The fact that it's centered rather than off-center (like with the micro-USB) may slightly increase the risk of damage. Also, possibly the fact that you can plug it without really looking at it may also increase the risk of screwing it up.Never had that happen myself, but it's possible. I didn't like much micro-USB though. It was pretty flimsy. I had a number of micro-USB connectors desoldered (the PCB-side receptables) after a while, the USB-C receptacles tend to be less prone to that. The cheap micro-USB receptacles were really, really bad. I don't think USB-C is worse than micro-USB from a reliability POV. It serves its purposes reasonably well. But I wouldn't want to see it used for just anything either, so let's hope that said EU directive doesn't widen the scope over time (like some zealots seem to be all for).

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 02:49:45 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on November 11, 2023, 10:50:38 amThat's a marketing choice made by individual brands, not a difference in technology. Both numbers can be correct, it's just that 18V is approximately the nominal voltage of the 5 cells in series, while 20V is approximately the fully charged voltage of the 5 cells in series.One distinction is that real power tools do not have integrated batteries (except for the super cheap tools). The batteries are sold separately from the tool, and in nearly all cases are not charged while attached to the tool. The tool itself has no charging capability. Which is by design...you want to be able to swap batteries and keep on using it.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 09:40:45 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 12, 2023, 02:41:09 amIt depends on particular connector construction. I never use ones with no TH mounting tabs for this reason. The most robust types go into PCB slot, it helps mitigate lever effect when plug is pulled up or down. Also depends on PCB pads, you should never use thermal reliefs for mounting tabs as they greatly increase the chance of PCB damage.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 05:55:49 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on November 11, 2023, 12:39:20 pmMea culpa, yes, you're correct but that 15W won't make significant difference to charge time, I doubt there's any builder in the land who'd be bothered by an extra minute or so of cig/brew/butty time while their batteries charge..The connector though, yeah, perfectly adequate for laptops, mobile phones etc.A building site, nah, you're spot on, it's way too fragile for a building site.Was there ever any credible suggestion that it might be forced into use though?

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 05:57:41 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on November 12, 2023, 02:49:45 amThere's some suggestion that the reason the 'standard' laptop charging voltage is 19V is because in the EU anything higher falls into a different electrical safety classification so it could also be the reason power tools over in Europe are marketed at 18V

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 06:03:12 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on November 12, 2023, 05:57:41 pmReference please?

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 06:13:20 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 12, 2023, 06:03:12 pmIt's a new one on me as I only heard it 'in passing' last week or the week before and I don't have any firm references yet (it's on the 'must look into' list) which is why I wrote 'some suggestion' rather than asserting it as fact.*added*: I listen to a lot of 'stuff' whilst working, driving etc. for background noise, it might have been the latest Ham Radio Workbench podcast (hardly an authorative source on EU regs) with W1REX

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 06:19:17 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on November 12, 2023, 05:57:41 pmWhat a nonsense. First of all many power tools are marketed as 20V here in EU. Secondly, such marketing has zero impact on compliance to safety regulations.EDIT: Looking on this Worx pressure washer, it could be something about false advertising as they put MAX inside 20V.https://www.amazon.de/Operated-Hydroshot-WG633E-1-PowerShare-Accessories/dp/B0BV21M2TH

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 06:26:11 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 12, 2023, 06:19:17 pmIt could well be complete nonsense and obviously marketing doesn't determine compliance with any standard, it was just musing on something I'd heard, as I said in reply to ebastler, from a non authorative source which is why I said "some suggestion" rather than asserting it as fact and that it was something I was intending to look into.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 06:42:59 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on November 12, 2023, 06:26:11 pmIndeed completely made-up nonsense. It pays off to tune your bullshit detector; certain people mostly spew bullshit like this, and the quicker you learn to recognize these people, the quicker you stop spreading their made-up stuff or at least always verify what they say.SELV limit in EU is much higher than that, 19V just happens to be convenient voltage for laptops charging their 4s li-ion packs (16.8V max charge voltage) using a buck converter with enough leeway for voltage regulation. You also see 18V and 20V power supplies and they usually all work interchargeably as long as the connector is right and the thing doesn't use some more complicated handshake stuff.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 07:30:59 pm
content: Looking more into this, apparently everyone who markets as 20V does not actually say it's 20V. Lidl (Parkside) calls itX20VTEAM, Scheppach calls it 20VPRO SERIES, WORX - 20V max power module, etc. So I'm pretty sure it's about some laws against false advertising which are much stricter in EU than in US.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 08:42:31 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on November 12, 2023, 06:13:20 pmI am not aware of any further voltage thresholds for safety classification below the SELV/PELV limits.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 06:21:32 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 12, 2023, 08:42:31 pmThere are qualifications within those, for certain conditions. I'll look it up for specifics when I get home from work, if no-one else posts it in the mean time.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 06:25:03 am
content: Quote from: CJay on November 12, 2023, 05:55:49 pmNiHaoMike suggested it, only they can answer the question of how serious they were.As someone else posted, we don't sit around drinking tea while we wait for batteries to charge, we swap for a full one and carry on working. I'm quite lightweight, only two 5.0Ah and two 2.0Ah in my toolbox; some I know have 10 or more 4.0Ah! (bloody wood-butchers, any excuse to have a toolbox big enough to sit on)

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 08:59:38 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 11, 2023, 09:55:04 pmThey aren't but I wish they were. Instead of having a lot of bulky charging docks that are brand specific, having the charging circuit in the tool would be perfect. Think of the benefits, of having them charged on site from a powerbank for example, only with a Type-C cable. Or better still, having a button which can turn the input into an output to charge a phone from the battery bank. I think power tools should be the next regulatory target, because that's also a market which is way too unregulated.For example the difference between a Bosch and a Dremel battery is a little piece of plastic to lock out using one battery in another tool. If you cut it off it works perfectly. I see no reason to have 10 different design battery pack with 3 cells that are only used for vendor-lock-in.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 09:24:26 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 13, 2023, 08:59:38 amCharging port in real professional power tools would be nearly useless. There are swappable batteries for a good reason. You discharge one, put in a charger, grab next battery and continue working, and so on. Discharging can be as fast as 5 minutes for high power tools. There are chargers that can charge 4 or even more batteries at once. Also batteries are compatible between many different tools in certain product line, so you can use them for tools that are needed at particular moment.QuoteI don't know about actual difference between those but Dremel batteries could easily use cells with lower discharge/charge rate due to lower power requirement than many Bosch tools that use similar 12V battery and up 3x slower charging compared with Bosch fast charger. When charging to 80% difference would be even larger as 1.5Ah Bosch takes 16 minutes to 80%.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 09:30:05 am
content: Internal charging is absolutely idiotic, as above. Furthermore, it would have the side effect of causing vendors to supply tools without external chargers, which makes it doubly idiotic. Hmm, maybe EU is already working on this...USB-C on a construction site is another idiocy. Look at what sort of connectors those tools actually useA multi-vendor standard line of batteries would be the right step, but I doubt it's happening.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 09:41:03 am
content: Quote from: magic on November 13, 2023, 09:30:05 amYes, you don't want concrete or steel dust and shavings anywhere near small connectors with tiny pins and clearance.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 09:43:58 am
content: Quote from: wraper on November 13, 2023, 09:24:26 amAnd these dedicated chargers are big for a reason: for example, they have cooling fans! After 5 minute (~10C) discharge, something which cells can't continuously handle for more than one half-cycle, cells are at maximum temperature (like 60-70degC) but not beyond it only thanks to their thermal mass. Then you put the pack in charger, and the cooling fan allows the charger to commence quick charging. This fan cooling allows not only for the dissipation due to charging current, but also removes the heat stored in the thermal mass of the cells, so that after maybe 20-30 minutes of fast charging, the pack is ready to be discharged in 5 minutes again. And with just 2-3 swappable battery packs, you can have nearly 100% duty cycle.It would be impractical to continuously cool the cells in the power tool itself as it needs to be hand-held (and is operated in even dustier conditions than the charger), so obviously no cooling fan there.For cheap chinesium tools for light-weight home use, fixed batteries within the tool, and USB-C port, under a plastic cap for dust protection, is not that bad of an idea. Nowadays it seems that every crap tool series have their own swappable battery system, yet people only buy that one tool, and the next year they need something different and get a different chinesium brand, and never a second battery for either, so swappable batteries and separate chargers only increase the cost and amount of e-waste. Such single-use cheap tools could as well use a fixed battery - and then, choice of USB-C is obvious e-waste reduction as no separate charger needs to be packaged.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 10:02:33 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on November 13, 2023, 09:43:58 amWhen I bought battery powered tools for my garden I extensively researched availability and pricing of devices that I will likely buy in future that are locked in to particular battery systems. Now I have 4 devices, 3 batteries and 2 chargers that fit them all and likely will buy one another compatible device. Buying all those separately with comparable runtime available would be like 2.5x the cost. Even if going Chinesium it still would be more expensive.EDIT: BTW Chinesium tools often clone battery system from some reputable manufacturer.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 10:45:50 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 12, 2023, 06:03:12 pmLaptops have used around 19V for at least a couple of decades, since they have been using lithium cellsThe only safety classification is SELV, which from memory is below 60VDC.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 12:32:09 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 13, 2023, 09:24:26 amDyson had the right idea, their batteries have built in charge ports. You could plug in the charger with the battery still installed on the tool, or you can take out the battery and charge it on its own. It would be a lot better if they made it all standard instead of being proprietary...Quote from: magic on November 13, 2023, 09:30:05 amA lot of tools are already available without the batteries or charger included, as well as many with only the batteries supplied. Some users already have the batteries and/or charger, that means they have the choice of not paying extra for those.Quote from: Siwastaja on November 13, 2023, 09:43:58 amThe charger for my cordless mower has a fan, but only to cool the charger itself. I had modded the charger to halve its output current, at stock it charges at about 1C rate and the pack gets a little warm when finished. Would be nice if it had a switch to allow the user to select how fast they want it to charge and what charge level to stop at, but the manufacturer wouldn't want to prolong the service life of the batteries...

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 12:43:55 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 13, 2023, 09:24:26 amYou place the charging circuit into the battery pack.Quote from: wraper on November 13, 2023, 09:41:03 amSo rubber dust cap? This is not rocket science.Quote from: Siwastaja on November 13, 2023, 09:43:58 amNot even just that, but all the Bosch, Gardena, PowerX and other brand powertools that get used 1x a year or a few times when you are renovating. They could easily use the same battery pack. And it doesn't have to be the same way for concrete impact drivers.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 12:50:46 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 13, 2023, 12:43:55 pmThey are often forgotten to be plugged or are plugged incompletely and likely will be ripped off in a few days on building site. Also then you need to put a plug on charger as well.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 12:52:48 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 13, 2023, 12:43:55 pmhttps://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/save-money-space-and-time-with-one-battery-for-many-brands-215504.html

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 01:26:55 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 13, 2023, 12:43:55 pmYes, let's duplicate the 48V input step down converter across every pack. Some people have dozens. Yay, we're saving the planet!Consumer toys little more capable than your wrist might benefit. Serious power tools need not apply.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 02:18:56 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 13, 2023, 12:52:48 pmThe problem is that group only includes one manufacturer of power tools. Every other manufacturer in that alliance is a garden tools manufacturer or makes one or two specialist tools. Why is there no Makita, Ryobi, DeWalt...? Probably because Bosch does not want to share the market with them.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 02:23:57 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 13, 2023, 02:18:56 pmThis is what always happens: manufacturers do not want interoperability until they are forced to by legislators. On the other hand, allowing non-compatible products allows innovations, so it's a trade-off.Some "industry standard" often appears, and in case of power tool battery systems that would be Makita LXT which is probably the only battery form factor widely copied by many different competitors, mostly Chinesium of course. I haven't seen any other power tool battery standard copied like that, so that you widely get not just replacement batteries and chargers, but complete power tools of their own designs from different manufacturers than the original one.And I'm sure that if that happened to Robert Bosch or any other German "manufacturer", they would do their best to shut down their compatible competitors by DRM and whatever; Makita probably understands that being an industry standard is a good thing for their business.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 02:45:45 pm
content: I'm a big fan of USB-C for many use cases, certainly for portable device charging. I was never so happy to get mine and the wife's iPhone 15's so that we can ditch Lightening. Our iPads were already USB-C. Our AirPods Pro cases charge wirelessly. The only thing I have left that uses Lightning are our AppleTV remotes, and I keep some cables around for guests to cover that. They only need charging every few months.I do agree that it would be misguided for larger power tools.Years ago I bought into the DeWalt 20V scheme. Haven't taken an inventory recently but have a least a dozen tools, andat leastthat many batteries.Quote from: Siwastaja on November 13, 2023, 02:23:57 pmYou can buy knockoff DeWalt 20V batteries. I have a couple of 6.0Ah batteries that realistically are closer to genuine DeWalt 4.0Ah in runtime, but they otherwise work great, and two of them were cheaper than a single DeWalt 5.0Ah battery. But the rest of my batteries are genuine DeWalt. I've got so many batteries now that I try to buy the tool-only versions. I also have a drawer full of DeWalt chargers that I don't need, as I already have 3 charging bays online at all times (1x dual charger + 1x single).

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 05:20:36 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on November 12, 2023, 06:42:59 pmQuote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 13, 2023, 10:45:50 amIt's 50VAC or 120VDC, with exceptions. This is derated to 25VAC and 60VDC if basic protection (insulation or barriers/enclosures) is omitted, and further derated to 12VAC and 30VDC if direct contact with water is expected. The DCV ratings are for ripple free supplies; if you have a non-smoothed one you'd have to ensure the peaks didn't exceed the mentioned limits to comply.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 05:56:22 pm
content: Quote from: magic on November 13, 2023, 09:30:05 amLike this one that’s been around for years?https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 06:28:28 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 13, 2023, 05:56:22 pmNot one but two, if not moreQuote from: wraper on November 13, 2023, 12:52:48 pm

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 07:48:58 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on November 13, 2023, 01:26:55 pmSure, because a single SO8 charger is such a burden, especially that you need an inductor and maybe a couple tens of microfarad of capacitors with it. So your reasoning that his much circuitin a battery pack is more environmentally harmful than this:Which you throw out when the battery pack is not working anymore. Together with the power tool. Because 10 years from now you cannot get a replacement battery because the brand is using a slightly different battery, that's not compatible anymore.I'm sorry, but I don't like bullshit, just say that you don't like the idea because it's different from what you are used to, and you refuse to change.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 08:44:16 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 11, 2023, 11:21:17 amNo, it's an American thing, Bigger is better, our American group MD believes this bullshit. Dewalt sell in the US and Europe, same batteries in the US are 20V and Europe 18V, standards were established for a reason.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 09:41:33 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 13, 2023, 05:56:22 pmOnly one I recognise from there is Metabo (and my only such tool from them is wired). Seems like the only way to get them all on board is to mandate something...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 10:03:38 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 13, 2023, 07:48:58 pmThen please don't try and pass a 5V input boost converter off as a 48V input buck capable of safely charging and balancing a 5S pack at 8A.You've not spent a lot of time working with power tools in real world conditions, I'm certain.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 10:06:47 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 13, 2023, 08:44:16 pmI don't know if it's exclusivelty an american thing. But they did do the same crap even with software versions, look how inflated versions of web browsers have become ever since Google started ridiculous version numbers with Chrome. Everyone followed. Bigger is better, right?And back to batteries, yes, using the max charged voltage as a marketing tool instead of the nominal voltage, is at best misleading.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 08:10:25 am
content: Most mainstream browsers are American, and three of them from California to boot.It was inevitable

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 08:24:14 am
content: Quote from: tooki on November 13, 2023, 05:56:22 pmNot a true alliance either, it's just one large corporation and their compatible sub-brands are not competing with each other, they are just for different fields, most never-heard niche.Real compatibility alliance would mean e.g. that Makita, Bosch, Milwaukee, Metabo, Panasonic (or whatever is their current name) etc. power tools would have cross-compatible batteries. Not going to happen by the free market.Think about it: their "alliance" claims compatibility to over 300 machines, but to compare, Makita LXTalonesays they have over 325 machines. This 300 is the magic number of power tools for anysinglemanufacturer.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 08:28:14 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 13, 2023, 07:48:58 pmYou are absolutely right when it comes to single use consumer power tools. Even better than integrated charger on the pack, would be integrated-battery-and-charger-within-device, as I said above. All of this from USB-C with a crappy plastic cap, which would be lost around the same time when the DC motor brushes wear out or a plastic gear snaps. It would be good for drilling a few hundred holes and driving a few hundred screws, during a year or two, and charged like 5-10 times. Amount of e-waste is minimized when everything breaks down at the same time, and modularity (and overhead caused by it; e.g. battery connectors and separate plastic casing) is minimized.On the other hand, in mid- or high-end power tools which see real (not only occasional) use, professional or home (e.g. larger renovations), these large dedicated chargers for swappable packs last for years, are used a lot, so not an e-waste problem.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 11:39:19 am
content: Quote from: tooki on November 13, 2023, 05:56:22 pmI have seen those before and would have declined such a standard for the same reason of poor ergonomics that I declined everything except the Milwaukee M12 standard.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 12:33:20 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on November 14, 2023, 08:24:14 amIt's certainly not a single corporation. However I suspect most of them are under umbrella of the same holding company and others are not really tool producers but sell rebranded tools that can be used with other products they actually produce. Fischer for example.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 04:04:12 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on November 13, 2023, 10:03:38 pmThis is a 3S pack charger with PD. You seem to go for a hyperbole immediately, so I also should clarify that it also not enough to charge an electric car. I have half a dozen battery powered power tool at home, all of which could be USB PD powered, and this is applicable to 95% of the people.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 04:08:13 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 14, 2023, 04:04:12 pmOf course it could - given enough time. Think about the possibilities of USB-C charging your EV at 200W; at 200Wh/km, that's one km charged every hour!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 04:39:15 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on November 14, 2023, 08:28:14 amEven better: buy the version with a power cord! For occasional use around the home battery operated power tools make no sense at all both financially and ergonimically. An extension cord is pretty cheap compared to buying batteries. When you need the tool, the battery will be near empty so you'd need to wait for the battery to charge. And when the battery runs out, you need to take a long break. On top of that, you don't need to lift the relatively heavy battery pack all the time.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 05:10:38 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 14, 2023, 04:39:15 pmThere are benefits and drawback to both; corded power tools are frequently more awkward to use because they have to be plugged in near enough to the job, and they are a trip and shock hazard.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 05:38:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 14, 2023, 04:39:15 pmI really have no idea where you get this early 2000's idea from that corded is somehow better. My lithium ion Bosch tools recharge in 30 minutes, the battery pack (2Ah) is quite light, I only charge them about once every few weeks for my usage profile (home DIYer), and they keep charge for months on end. Do they cost more than corded tools ... well, yes, for the first one or two because you need batteries and chargers, but afterwards you just buy the battery-free tool sets and they're just as cheap if not cheaper than the mains powered ones. Ergonomically I'd much rather prefer a slightly heavier power tool than a long cord hanging from it.There is a good reason why the mainstream manufacturers only make corded tools where cordless is impractical, e.g. SDS hammer drills which need long endurance times or very high power outputs, and that's because customers definitely prefer battery power over a cable. For instance, try finding a corded impact driver now. They do exist but there's vastly fewer available compared to the battery-powered options, most manufacturers having a consumer, prosumer and professional option for instance.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 06:52:45 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 14, 2023, 05:38:43 pmCorded IS better! My Makita corded screw driver (with an extra long, high quality rubber cord) plugs in a wall socket and is ready to go. Instantly. No preparation, no charging, no charger that sits somewhere. I used to have various versions of Makita battery operated cordless drills for 20 years or so but dealing with the batteries annoyed the hell out of me. Allways empty (or running out) when I needed it. Especially when some unplanned job turns up. I got rid of them and never looked back.Edit: typo (thanks wraper for noting!)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 06:59:54 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 14, 2023, 06:52:45 pmNo thank you. Socket is often not available near enough. Then you need extension cord, often a very long one. And cable is interfering with the job and looping around that extension cord all of the time.QuoteThat's a non sequitur.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 07:31:15 pm
content: QuoteNot surprised. NiCd and NiMh batteried did everything you say: went flat on their own quickly, relatively gutless, take ages to charge. It was the same with cars - no-one (except youtube wannabes, would make a lead-acid powered car). But Li-ion has been a game changer and things that were a drag even 10 years ago are pretty cool now. Hell, I even prefer battery drills because of the better balance provided by the battery counterweight now.But they are not magical. Just because they are great for many things doesn't make them perfect for everything, and a sensible discussion will bear that in mind rather than using extreme edge cases to 'prove' they are shit for the other 99% of cases too. Or vice versa, of course.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 07:48:23 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 14, 2023, 04:39:15 pmI wholeheartedly agree with this unpopular opinion. However big game changer li-ion has been, batterization of every random power tool has gone too far. Corded tools are a bit PITA sometimes, but finding out the battery is empty then start looking for the charger you tossed in some drawer somewhere is even bigger PITA. And if you have three random cheap Chinese power tools, you likely have three different batteries and three chargers. OTOH, cheap mains-powered power tools have crap efficiency, but it doesn't matter for occasional use; the main point is, they are much cheaper and simpler than the battery equivalents.And for occasional use, corded tools have no expiration date, unlike li-ion batteries (especially cheap). Many 30-year old power tools still work, even the cheap ones, with light use.For serious use, one obviously buys full set of tools they need, quick charger and enough batteries, from one brand, which would be at least a 1000EUR investment, but this isn't relevant to most home owners who do small stuff every now and then.Obviously a good Makita LXT set is going to win over a random corded power tool, but if you do a fair comparison of cheap crap versus cheap crap, the corded isevencheaper and has fewer parts and does the same job.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 08:44:46 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on November 14, 2023, 07:48:23 pmThat is a good point indeed. For occasional use you won't even wear a device out before the batteries go obsolete. A couple of years ago I threw out a Makita cordless drill which was like brand new but the batteries where dead and no replacements (at least not for a decent price). Such a waste of materials and money!

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 09:09:56 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 14, 2023, 06:52:45 pmAnd don't forget you might need to get out the extension lead because there is no socket anywhere near where you need it. Meanwhile I always have at least one charged battery in my tool draw, so in the worst case 5 seconds later I have a working tool. The batteries don't appreciably discharge themselves when unused.But, horses for courses, if you like corded tools then keep buying them - someone must, they still make them!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 09:48:52 pm
content: IMHO corded tools are good when you don't need to move them around or it's a really extensive use of high consumption tool that changing the batteries is more cumbersome that dealing with stupid cable. Of course the major aspect is cost. You probably don't want an expensive battery powered angle grinder for occasional domestic use when you can get good enough corded tool for basically peanuts.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 10:56:47 pm
content: And what is the problem with an extension cord? I have some good quality rubber ones which lay flat (don't coil up) and don't get stiff when cold.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 11:49:38 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 14, 2023, 04:39:15 pmYeah, my impact drill, angle grinder and sander for example are all wired. It's better that way, and the tool is more durable. I also went with the semi-professional series, these are all tools that will last a lifetime with the usage they get from me. Plus they are often really really cheap.But that's beside the point. I don't think we will get a 700W angle grinder with USB-C, but I would like to have the 12V battery packs with USB.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 12:02:18 am
content: I can say about recent experience at doing stuff at my home. Wired power tools connected to 25m extension cord were a major nuisance when I was redoing poorly installed rolling gate and its automatics that are squeezed in between of a fence and bushes.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 12:58:14 am
content: Isn't the proof of the pudding in the eating? Justifying purchases isn't quite the same as seeing which one you reach for if you have the choice. For me, and for most tools I have the wired and battery equivalent, it's usually the battery job for the convenience and lack of wires. Particularly with spinning disk stuff (angle grinders, circular saws) the cable is an assassin looking for a victim.But there are exceptions: the Bosch wired multi-tool gets used in preference except when there is no power point available. No idea why that's the odd one.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 04:37:22 am
content: I would like to see more power tools that have the option of running either cordless or corded. Ryobi made some a few years ago, great for users but not so good for manufacturers looking to sell new batteries.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 08:42:08 am
content: It’d certainly be trivial for the manufacturers to make an AC-powered dummy battery, akin to what’s common in cameras.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 09:04:41 am
content: Quote from: tooki on November 15, 2023, 08:42:08 amThat PSU most likely will be more expensive than AC powered tool, and likely oversized quite a bit to have enough power. I doubt you want something like 0.5-1.5kW PSU attached to the tool. Somewhat reasonable only for low power tools.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 09:25:01 am
content: Yes, the problem with extra low voltage stuff is that power tools require high peak currents so power supplies need to be overdimensioned for the maximum monentary current. Power supply capacitors can supply peaks only formilliseconds, while li-ion batteries caneasilysupply 20-30A peak currents for seconds or even minutes. This makes corded/battery hybrid solutions infeasible, they would be even more expensive and generate even more e-waste.With corded stuff that operates directly at mains voltage, this problem does not exist. Sure, it might take 2kW peak and 500W average to achieve the same you get from a battery with 500W peak and 50W average, but it's insignificant in energy bill if you use it for a few minutes a year. Material and manufacturing cost dominates, and it's the smallest with a small crappy mains universal brushed motor directly switched through simple power switch to a cord, barely dimensioned to handle the current without melting. Manufacturers are good at cost minimization of this kind of stuff.The cost of a corded power tool for $20 and similar battery version for $40 reflects this difference.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 09:47:50 am
content: Quote from: wraper on November 15, 2023, 09:04:41 amYou almost want a small 'buffer' battery that can handle the peak load and a charger that can top it up at, say, 200W. But I suspect that such a pack would still be quite heavy and probably need air cooling (if only for the battery cells) which creates lots of headaches in a high dust environment. Just get the 4-5Ah equivalent pack if you need a long endurance, or use a wired tool for those odd jobs. Trying to get one tool to do both is unlikely to work out that well.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 10:25:08 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on November 15, 2023, 09:25:01 amMany if not most battery powered tools still use brushed motors. And they are not that much worse than BLDC variants of the same tool. Saying that if powered from AC, the same tool suddenly becomes 4-10x less efficient is nonsensical.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 11:21:36 am
content: Quote from: wraper on November 15, 2023, 10:25:08 amI think unless you are doing a complete home renovation, the electricity bill for either tool type is essentially negligible, and even then almost every other cost will outweigh it. It is true that BLDC motors tend to be a bit more efficient and produce more output power for a given input power, important on a battery powered tool but less so on mains powered equipment where a bigger fan is usually sufficient to deal with that problem.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 12:27:28 pm
content: For the latest 80V mowers, the voltage is high enough for a buck converter to make sense and isolation will not be required as the voltage is well above the 60V or so low voltage threshold.Quote from: tom66 on November 15, 2023, 11:21:36 amThe latest pressure washers in the US use BLDC motors to get every bit of power available from a 120V outlet. Aside from precision control over current draw, they also have the advantage of providing more flow at lower pressure settings.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 12:42:03 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 15, 2023, 11:21:36 am"A bit more" and 4-10X are very different figures. Brushed motors are quite efficient actually, so 4x improvement in efficiency is physically impossible.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 01:17:08 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 15, 2023, 12:42:03 pmI didn't say I agreed with the 4-10x efficiency claim. However it is true in some areas high power appliances are considerably less efficient. For instance the EU vacuum cleaners law: 2000W mains powered vacuums were found to have only slightly better efficiency than well-designed 150W brushless motor battery powered stick vacuums. They may well have had a wall power that is high, but whether that power is needed or used appropriately is another matter.I was surprised by how efficient my electrician-friend's battery powered SDS was. Whilst it wasn't quite as quick at going through the brick as my 1500W rated mains powered SDS, it was close. It definitely was not pulling 1500W from the battery pack. I'd be surprised if it was pulling more than 400W given it was running off a 4Ah pack. So I could see a factor of 2-3x being reasonable for some tools. Sometimes the problem is not power, but torque, and BLDC can produce far more torque for a given size of motor, and the motor controller can optimise for torque or speed, a brushed motor is at the mercy of the field/triac or switched winding control for speed.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 02:20:54 pm
content: QuoteMight it be technique (of the technology kind)? I have a BFO mains impact driver, needed to get the reverse-threaded nut of the bottom of the mower spindle. It's an unwieldy thing but you can feel the massive bangs it's handing out. Then I got a Lidl battery impact driver which does the job much more easily, and is smaller and lighter, but it vibrates rather than bangs. I wouldn't be surprised to learn the impacts go in a different direction too, though I can't see how that would work with forward and reverse modes. But it shows that apparently tools with apparently similar functions can be very different.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 03:50:36 pm
content: Quote from: PapierzToaletowy on November 15, 2023, 09:46:29 am120V 13A or ~1.6kW is plenty for all of these typical low-cost power tools we are discussing. Even in 230V 16A land, (where our crap sockets also melt at rated current, which has been mentioned to you), these power tools are usually in 500W-1500W range.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 03:59:55 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 15, 2023, 10:25:08 amIt's not nonsensical. AC universal motors in power tools are designed to high winding resistance to artificially low efficiency, which serves two purposes, (1) inrush/stall current limitation in absence of any current sensing control circuitry (so that a cheap triac circuit won't blow up on switch overcurrent; or house fuses won't blow up), and (2) cost, weight reduction due to copper savings.Remember, in non-current-controlled DC motor, the ratio between stall current and nominal operating current is proportional to efficiency. If you make an efficient motor, stall current is massively huge and you need to actively control it, which costs easily more than $1 in parts. Inefficient motor can be directly connected to a voltage source, or PWM'd without current sense.Battery powered tools have incentive to use higher efficiency motors because otherwise the runtime would suffer so much (and cells would need to be rated to even higher discharge). Therefore they also have some kind of MOSFET-based switch which does some rudimentary Rds_on current sensing and limitation. So yeah, they are not more expensive only because they come with a battery and a charger (with isolated transformer), but also because the motor itself is more expensive.As you point out, brushed vs. brushless is actually quite irrelevant, you can design efficient or inefficient motors both ways. Brushless enables a bit better power density by saving the volume occupied by the brushes (especially higher efficiency brushes would be larger). But there sure are brushed DC motors over 90% efficient, used in old forklifts, early EVs, industrial applications etc.Look at the difference in vacuum cleaners producing roughly the same amount of flow and static pressure: from 1000W of 1980's/early 1990's, up to 2000W during the power bloat season starting late 1990's, finally back to even below 1000W after EU made that illegal.If you don't believe me, observe it yourself: look how easily an electric drill rated to 500W or more stalls and compare it to even a cheap battery powered drill. The difference in power consumption isn't 10x I admit that but 4x difference is well possible. If one is 60% efficient then the other can be 15-20%. You can also see how much more air flow the cooling fans on these cheap-ass corded tools produce compared to battery variants.Upper limit for motor efficiency is obviously 100%, but remember that lower limit is as low as 0%, and as long as you can get any cost savings operating at low tens of %, and it's not illegal to do so, it's notnonsensicalat all. With easy availability of 1.5kW - 3 kW from a wall plug, there is little incentive to be efficient, but running with a battery totally changes the game.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 04:20:34 pm
content: Quote from: PapierzToaletowy on November 15, 2023, 09:46:29 amHere's a fun fact to you: in the UK, the country of EVEN BETTER plugs than ours, there is a complete separate ecosystem of 120-volt power tools for really serious professional use at construction sites*, so clearly 120V isn't a problem. Let that fact sink in; OTOH, with a political anti-USA agenda, I'm quite sure you are not interested about such trivial things asfacts.*) the idea is to use a 240-V input, 120V output transformer with earthed center tap. This way, potential between either legs to true earth/PE/plumbing is 60VACrms, which is deemed pretty safe. One can see how great this idea was before the era of RCDs; UK electrical system is full of great ideas implemented well.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 04:49:45 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on November 15, 2023, 03:50:36 pmThere is no such thing as a 13A circuit on this side of the Atlantic. Standard outlets are rated at 15A and 20A. Loads must be derated to 80%, so the maximum constant drawn power is 1,440W and 1,920W, respectively.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 05:05:30 pm
content: Quote from: vad on November 15, 2023, 04:49:45 pmI first wrote 15A, but specifically lowered that to 13A since I was watching the video posted in this thread which showed anextension cord rated to 13A. Here, it is illegal to sell non-fused extension cords rated to anything lower than the sockets (16A).On the other hand, I forgot the derating factor so numbers ended up quite close to that 15A value. The 20% derating rule is ridiculous IMHO, but oh well, maybe it's better than our situation where everything is 16A on paper except that it's strongly suggested that EV charging is derated by 50% to avoid fires, yet similar rule does not exist for anything else and there are swimming pool heaters which operate at 14A continuously.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 05:26:27 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on November 15, 2023, 03:59:55 pmI'm not sure this is a fair comparison as the power versus torque graphs for the motors may be different depending on the intended use. In the end the power rating says very little over what amount of torque a drill can develop at the chuck. You need to take the gear ratio into account. An electric drill designed to primarily drill holes will have a different gear ratio because it needs to rotate as higher speeds (like 3000 RPM) compared to a drill primarily designed to drive screws in (which rotates at ballpark 450 RPM). For example: the Makita corded screw driver 'drill' I have is made to provide torque at low speeds. As a consequence it is stronger (=more torque) compared to its battery powered counterparts.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 07:24:32 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on November 15, 2023, 04:20:34 pmNitpicking I know, but it's 110VAC with a CTE.Bizarrely enough, for the higher power stuff (big core drills, concrete saws etc) we jump straight from 110VAC to 400VAC 3-ph...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 08:38:31 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on November 15, 2023, 03:59:55 pmCordless drills usually are more like electric screwdrivers that can also drill. So RPM will be like a half of an average mains powered drill that has higher RPM and no torque adjustment, so not suitable for screws. And again, cordless tools, especially cheap usually have brushed motor. BLDC is usually used in better tools. Often basically the same model comes in both variants with some performance advantage in BLDC version.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 10:10:47 pm
content: Yep. And while efficiency per se is not that much different as you pointed out, a brushed motor will by design wear out much faster. When it does, either you feel like renovating the motor by changing the brushes yourself (as long as you can find the parts), or you throw it away as finding the motor itself as a spare part is even less likely. Brushless motors have much, much longer lifetime.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 11:27:08 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 15, 2023, 10:10:47 pmIf you replace brushes timely, brushed motor can last a very long time. In better tools, brushes usually have a wear protection, they electrically disconnect when become worn out to prevent motor damage. As of DIY use, they'll last forever. The downside of BLDC is that it can accumulate magnetic dust and shavings.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 11:49:14 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 15, 2023, 11:27:08 pm50 years ago a good brushed motor lasted a very long time. Now its not just the brushes that wear. In a lot of motors the commutator wears a lot, too. I think with all the higher end motors going brushless, brushed motors have been driven into a super low cost space where quality can't be maintained.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2023, 12:18:43 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 15, 2023, 10:10:47 pmFor as long as the electronics keep working... Brushes are just a mechanical part and likely you can source ones that will fit even if the original ones are no longer available. Then again, I have never had to replace brushes in any tool used around the house. I did buy brushes for a Makita reciprocating saw which was worn more than I initially hoped for. Turns out the brushes didn't need replacing. Only some bearings and a seal.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2023, 07:05:05 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 15, 2023, 10:10:47 pmNot all brushed motors wear up quickly, it's again a design decision. Larger brush area not only increase efficiency by decreasing current density, but slows down the wear. High-quality brushed motor power tools easily lasted years of daily professional use while cheap ones fail in worst cases in just few hours. Similarly, some brushed EV traction motors were good for easily 150 000 kilometers before brush swaps.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2023, 08:00:24 am
content: Quote from: wraper on November 15, 2023, 09:04:41 amI suggested looking to the ones on cameras: the actual SMPS doesn’t fit into the battery compartment, so the power brick is connected via a cable so that the camera stays compact (= existing accessories will still fit).

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2023, 09:51:39 am
content: Quote from: wraper on November 15, 2023, 08:38:31 pmMany of Milwaukee's M12 tools come in brushed and brushless versions, with the later offering noticeably higher performance. I started with their brushed M12 drill but found it to be underpowered in some applications, so picked up the brushless version. I am not sure why this is the case since both use electronic control and rely on the same batteries, but I suspect one significant difference is simply the effective number of poles in the motor. 4-pole brushed motors are only common with starter motors, so 3-pole brushless motors will have a natural power advantage over common 2-pole brushed motors.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2023, 11:35:02 am
content: Quote from: tooki on November 16, 2023, 08:00:24 amThe problem is that high current surges aren't a problem for batteries but a power supply typically doesn't like them. So you'd need a huge PSU to replaces the batteries of a cordless drill (for example). Somebody I know has experimented with this and his results wheren't stellar. If you want a corded power tool, buy a corded power tool.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2023, 11:40:52 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 16, 2023, 11:35:02 amI have used a cordless drill with a dead battery from a PSU in a pinch and can confirm that a 12V 30A Meanwell clone power supply (look at how big these are) was needed to be able to doanythingand even that sagged (10A lab supply was tested first, totally unusable). And it was a supply capable of working in CC mode; those that fault out or enter hickup mode are unusable. A simple 18650 power cell easily puts out 30-40A of peak current. Many 18650 power cells are actually tested for a full continuous discharge cycle at as high as 25A; sure the cell temperature would be beyond 60degC at the end, but that's also why professional power tool chargers have battery cooling: they can bypass long cooldown waiting times.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2023, 12:14:36 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 16, 2023, 08:00:24 amThen you will need very thick or very short wires to provide reasonably low voltage drop to not hinder performance. And again, PSU price will be prohibitive to the point of making no sense of using this contraption rather than just buying another tool that works from mains voltage natively.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2023, 01:03:52 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on November 16, 2023, 07:05:05 amBig enough brush/commutator combinations will run for years without maintenance. The snag is people want their hand held power tools to be hand sized.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2023, 02:31:36 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 16, 2023, 01:03:52 pmYeah. I think the biggest advantage in BLDC power tools was not efficiency or even performance increase, but it made those tools visibly smaller and lighter.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2023, 07:23:21 pm
content: I think motor life on battery powered power tools isn't that important as batteries replacement cost is the real cost. By the time the motor goes bad it's about time to buy another tool. The price of the tool+battery isn't all that much different from the battery alone.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2023, 07:31:00 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on November 16, 2023, 07:23:21 pmWhile usually you get a significantly better deal when buying a tool with battery bounded rather than separately, the cost difference is huge actually.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2023, 07:33:30 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on November 16, 2023, 07:23:21 pmUsually the all in one kit includes the charger too. And the batteries on my Bosch drill are still good after 5 years, I expect them to more than double that life. A friend had a lawnmower with Li-Ion batteries, one of the first generations, and it did 10 years of summers (two batteries used per 'mow') before the batteries finally went bad. I think modern Li-Ion batteries are likely to last even longer. Once you get over that point you get to issues of obsolescence, will I be able to buy these batteries any more for instance...

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2023, 07:36:25 am
content: Fully charged storage in hot conditions is what kills these power tool batteries. It's not as much capacity drop, it's the electrolyte reactions and thickening of the SEI layer which increases the equivalent DC resistance of the cells, so that they would still measure decent capacity under low discharge current, but sag in voltage in power tool use, so that low-voltage cutoff is reached way before 0% state-of-charge. It would be best to store the batteries between maybe 20%-60% SoC but then you need to remember to charge before use. I have made it a habit that Idon'tcharge the batteries after use for this reason (but I don't attempt to optimally discharge them either, so maybe they are at 30%, maybe at 90% depending on what I was doing the last time). I remember some BOSCH batteries didn't last for more than 3-4 years or so when they sat in charger all the time.

author: Icchan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 03:40:59 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on November 12, 2023, 06:13:20 pmThis is EXACTLY how rumors and urban legends are spread and then amplified by algorithms and upset culture on social media and in coffee tables. If you do not know where you heard something and if you have not double checked the information to be accurate, do NOT regurgitate it forwards in ANY way. No matter if you mention or try to say that it's a rumor.Someone WILL read/hear it "in passing", will forget/miss that it was supposed to be a rumor and will regurgitate it forwards as a fact.Only way to stop bad information and misinformation is to not repeat anything unless you're absolutely sure about what you say is true.This thread has devolved into meaningless chatter beside the topic. Are we talking about USB-C or are we talking about battery heating, is the battery in your milwaykee 18 or 20v and about construction workers using battery powered tools from PSU's?Nobody's coming and stealing your Milwaukees nor putting an USB-C to an EV... just calm down everyone and get back to the topic.And remember, legislation in EU is not made by idiots. People reading the legislation badly and then reacting to it loudly are idiots. They just jump to a conclusion and then rage about it and balloon the issue with imagined scenarios and horrors. And also, people writing news and articles MIGHT have anti-EU or anti-regulation stance, thus they will lie to you and get you reacting and retweeting before you even know that they just lied to you.Our bananas are still not straight, our cucumbers neither. Kids can still play on playgrounds, mozzarella is still not made with powedered cheese, British kept their wonderful power plugs and we do not have to worry about USB-C in stupid and nonsensical use cases being forced onto people.Calm down and keep discussing about the topic at hand

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 03:57:54 pm
content: QuoteWhat? I won't be able to charge the EV from my phone's wallwart? What is the point of it all, then

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 05:12:47 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on December 03, 2023, 03:57:54 pmThink about the possibilities - at 200W USB-C quick charge, during 12 hours of overnight charge, you could get 15 km of driving range in your EV. All you need to do is to apply a bit of extra engineering bypassing the car's existing power-hungry always-on-during-charge systems like unnecessary computers, poorly designed BMS and whatever, so that you can put most of that 200W (minus the main contactor) to do actual work. Then you just need to design an isolated, say flyback converter from 20V to battery voltage (400V-ish). Easy-peasy!

author: andre_teprom
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 09:05:40 pm
content: Having all that extra stuff in the device can make it bulky and expensive. I prefer having the smarts in the charger too. Plus, it makes chargers more versatile for different devices. But it seems like the industry is moving towards USB-C for uniformity.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 09:36:43 pm
content: Quote from: andre_teprom on December 03, 2023, 09:05:40 pmIt's not clear if you mean instead of, or as well as, smarts in the battery.If it's the former then that would, IMO, be a bad move since the charger would need to know about the battery. Use the wrong charger and it could be goodbye battery (and whatever is nearby).QuoteActually, less versatile. Consider that the charger would need to know about everything it might ever be charging, which is an impossibility. So there would be a subset of everything, and the likelihood is that the subset would be quite small. What happens about the stuff the charger doesn't know? Not awfully versatile with those, I guess.On the other hand, a 12VDC supply is pretty versatile and generic. Doesn't give a damn about what's sucking juice from it, won't try to control whatever it is erroneously, etc. Of course, that means the batteries would need smarts, but once all of them have it the cost of adding it is very small. As an example, once upon a time a simple one-axis electronic gyro cost serious money, eventually falling to "er, I'll think about it" cost. Nowadays you get 6DOF sensors for peanuts, mainly because every phone contained a gyro or accelerometer or, more often, both.I think things like charging, where there are two distinct entities that share nothing except the connection, should conform to Postel's law: "an implementation should be conservative in its sending behavior, and liberal in its receiving behavior". Perhaps USB PD does that.QuoteI think uniformity in this context is a Good Thing. The problem is that USB-C is quite complex, needing even special cables with smarts in them to really do the business. But it falls back to something sensible if you're cheaping out and just want simple.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 09:43:05 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 03, 2023, 05:12:47 pmSomewhat more useful would be the capability to charge the 12V battery from USB-C. It wouldn't take much power at all to overcome the self discharge and keep the battery from going dead in a car that's only driven occasionally. If the USB-C port is already there for some other purpose (most likely charging portable devices when the car is running), it would only be a little more complexity to have the converter be able to run backwards. That said, it would make much less sense in an EV or plug in hybrid which already has a power input.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2023, 06:56:15 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 03, 2023, 09:43:05 pmTrue, but I would prefer engineering the 12V system correctly to begin with, so that the 12V aux battery simply never dies. This should be well possible, although I know some EVs have had problems with it.