Question regarding Leupold LTO Tracker HD? "American made" 320x240@25hz core? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: dickcrippen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 05:22:20 am
content: First off just to clarify, I still consider myself green to thermal imaging period, even after the last couple weeks of obsessive nightly reading and googling. So I apologize for any obvious community knowledge I lack and also sorry for the long post here, I'll do my best to keep it succinct. If you want to just skip the meat of the background story and get right down to where I approach the technical questions I will place some asterisks where they begin.So it all began when I stumbled upon the newer version of leupold's handheld thermal "monocular", the "LTO Tracker HD" while browsing on Amazon during a vacation roughly 3-4 weeks back. Sure enough... being the TOTAL opposite of a well informed consumer, I made the good old nearly $1000 impulse buy. Of course with the prime one-day shipping. (that type of purchase you almost always regret the next day right as it arrives) All the while crossing my fingers that the thing would even arrive to our secluded cottage location. But hey, I was out in the middle of nowhere surrounded entirely by beach and forest for several weeks so figured it would keep me and the family entertained at the very least. Plus I've always really, really wanted a thermal for hunting and home defense, but could never justify coughing up the average 3-4k scope price (or was just never drunk enough to have one cross my path while on amazon prime)Needless to say, once it arrived it single handedly opened me up to the entire world and underbelly of thermal imaging, and you could even say it dragged my soul deep into that worlds.... thermal core, pun intended. I'm at an almost manic level of fascination with IR thermal imaging tech now, and have been non stop researching everything thermal you could imagine. From the day it arrived to the day I got back home (yesterday) the device almost never left my person, I even (nervously) carried it through TSA and onto the plane, so lets just say the wife and kids got a bit embarrassed/sick of the constant pointing it around near the end of our trip.But what consumed most my time while laying sleepless in bed at night simply started out as a basic fascination of how these thermals ticked and wanting scratch the itch to learn the basic components of what I was holding. Then that quickly turned into wondering what made one thermal perform better than another, what made one device cost $900, one $9000, and another $90,000. I then started getting into the area of comparing many different brands finished thermal products, interested to know more about my own particular device in general, who makes comparable products, wondering if I actually got what I paid for, or was there a generic brand with the same core for half the price, etc. I'm sure similar paths lots of you guys all started down. For me, the one thing that really stood out and had me entirely confused was this newer HD leupold device I bought had and still has almost no reviews on amazon, no youtube reviews or videos except the shotshow release video, no forum posts, no nothing, just your standard blog release posts and it has been out for close to a year. A lot of my questions revolve around this strange situation itself.But of course I didn't stop there and my reading quickly progressed into the more technical aspects, learning the basics of what a core is, pixel µm micron sizes, learning the different type of lens materials, lens configurations, learning about HFOV, the various displays and their resolutions, 30hz refresh rates, locked 9hz refresh rates, I could go on and on and still not feel like I know a fraction of what you guys know. I started discovering who OEM's whose products, then that brought me to searching who makes what cores, TRYING to learn the differences between each manufacturers respective cores, their difference in sensor resolutions vs pixel pitch, refresh rates etc. Even after all the googling and reading and knowledge I gained, and even though I most definitely feel like a much more informed thermal imaging device consumer, I still could see myself getting entirely ripped off thousands of dollars over something as simple as a brand name company using a specific brand name core when another lesser known core could cost half the price and perform just as well. Sometimes you just can't know it all I guess, but that's why I am reaching out to you guys.*************************************So with all that said, and after I got a decent feel comparing popular thermal scopes, binoculars, monoculars, handhelds, etc, core resolution/display resolution/refresh specs to their respective prices, it began to seem like the product I impulse purchased was actually an incredibly lucky buy and I somehow landed a solid performing thermal for the cost:quality ratio. I mean I lack the huge knowledge pool you guys posses here, but from my basic, freshly learned perspective, this small hand held device with a 320x240 sensor@25-30hz, 390x390 display, decent fov, fairly impressive image quality/sensitivity, plus effective at ~200-300yd, and with a price range of $869-$989 seems unmatched. The only thing coming close I could find was the seek compactpro, also a 320x240 sensor resolution which I know you are all familiar with. And this is exactly the type of stuff that has me concerned, maybe the LTO HD is too good to be true? For all I know this image quality, sensitivity, range, could all be shit, despite what the sensor resolution and other specs are, numbers only say so much when there are so many other software and lense variables. And how is it even possible they pulled off such a low price point with a 320x240 sensor? I am unable to find any other 320x240 scope or monocular that is under $1000, FLIR makes a $1600 handheld and I think it uses dual camera tech. Could leupold be using the same core as the lower quality seek cell phone peripheral and just have it unlocked to run around 25-30hz? And to clear the air this isn't some hail corporate post, my intentions aren't to review or praise this particular device, to be honest I am fairly happy with it- yet to be entirely unbias I've had a couple quirks with it as a whole... which is for another post. (I will gladly do a full review though if there is enough interest)So I wonder, do I just lack the hands on experience with other thermals to differentiate if this is actually a piece of junk in disguise? I realize just because something has a resolution size of 320x240 doesn't automatically make it better than something with a smaller resolution size, and their are MANY other factors let it be hardware or software that can make very big quality differences. I've only handled one other thermal before and it was an older FLIR, so my only other comparisons have been online footage or just straight up core specification numbers, which like I said don't do much of anything. Could it be possible they pull this off by importing chinese cores or something, I just don't really understand why there are no other bare bones products running 320x240 cores that can be within this price range. If I do find anything, its a scope and its loaded down with fat and bloatware like GPS, wifi, bluetooth, microSD card, gives you a blowjob, etc. Just ridiculous stuff.Anyways appreciate the patience for whoever read this. I don't mind taking apart my unit if anyone actually has no idea what core they use in this thing, I am just as interested as you are. If I come across like an idiot I apologize, I have lots to learn still. I'm sure the reality is I just have a properly priced, middle line product, but I just can't get over how there is absolutely no one else offering similar sized sensor products in other forms, because since I can't rifle mount the leupold I would love a mountable scope in this affordable price range without all the absurd add ons.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 05:41:21 am
content: Welcome to the forum.I've been watching thermal technology as it applies to hunting too and the few I've handled definitely make game/varmints visible when you'd have no other way of seeing them even out to un-shootable range !All I've seen so far have been monochrome, ie the game lights up white. (rifle mounted scopes)In this link from one of our suppliers shows just where your LTO Tracker HD rates amongst other similar thermal HH's. (~1/2 way down)https://www.guncity.com/leupold-lto-tracker-hd-thermal-tracker-new-model-345697

author: tonykids
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 05:57:02 am
content: The LEUPOLD LTO-Tracker which has 206x156@30hz uses the same core as seek compact.But the core's quality seems much better than seek,and is auto-focus.The LTO-Tracker is worth the price.I guess the HD version uses the same core as seek compact pro

author: dickcrippen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 07:38:54 pm
content: Quote from: tonykids on July 09, 2018, 05:57:02 amI've been had boys..... I got duped. It only makes sense for the price point and the fact the original LTO used the seek core. Well with that said, is it pathetic that a seek 320x240 core impressed me so much? Guess I can't wait to get a big boy quality 640x512

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 08:04:43 pm
content: In the world of thermal cameras, 320 x 240 pixels still make up the majority of thermal cameras in use. 160 x 120 is also in use and popular as it is cheaper to buy. For those with deep pockets 640 x 480 pixels VGA is an option BUT buyers should ask themselves whether the extra cost be truly justified for the intended use. Also lens FOV becomes an important factor. If image detail is important a 320 x 240 pixel camera with 20 Degree HFOV provides the same detail as a 640 x 480 pixel camera with a 40 Degree HFOV. That said, the 640 x 480 pixel camera will be impressive when mated with a 20 Degree lens.Always remember that pixel count is just one specification that will effect the quality of the image produced, and amount of useful detail contained within the image. There are other important specifications that separate the wheat from the Chaff. Rifle scopes and dedicated scopes such as used in Fire fighting or SAR are limited in terms of measurement capabilities and the ability to fine tune the camera for best image. Depending upon intended use, the additional features of a decent thermal imaging camera, rather than a 'scope' will come in very useful indeed.Fraser

author: DaneLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2018, 05:18:54 pm
content: Seek Thermal and Leopold goes hand in hand and numerous of Leopold thermal-items' are just Seek thermals, with an "Leopold" American made sticker on them.Not sure if that "American made" is the reason for an item' that Seek Thermal are selling for 620USD (Reveal pro) now cost 980 USD after an Leopold sticker had been put on it.https://www.leupold.com/night-vision-thermal-scopes/handheld/lto-quest-hdLooks to be the same.. just with Leopold sticker on them. (perhaps there are actual differences?)but I doubt it, seems to be a so-called partnership between Seek thermal California according to Leopold news from late December 2016.https://www.leupold.com/leupold-core/core-insider/news/leupold-and-seek-form-strategic-allianceQuoteBut I do feel sad for people going out and purchasing some of these items from Leopold (particularly the 1 to 1 rebrands Reveal & ReveAL PRO) in the hope that its, in fact, an American made Leopold creation and then coming home and sensing that it's just a rebrand Seek Thermal being sold for significantly higher price.Same with Seels Reveal standard, there cost 399 under the Seek name, and now being sold for 650USD under the Leopold name.https://www.leupold.com/night-vision-thermal-scopes/handheld/lto-questa +60% price increasement' only down to a rebrand-sticker, Thahh Not to fund of that. - particularly as it seems that Leopold is riding the "Leopold American made" aspect, like there is no tomorrow" -.. "its a Leopold, it can easily become a collectable piece and be more worth in the future"... aspects that I can hear some of the YT-reviewers are saying on their reviews and with some of these new Thermal-Seek based-Leopold items that "Leopold" have send out to them, likely for free, but perhaps that the way to get people to pay a way higher price for some of these rebrands.. if they hope that it will be more worth in the future..but fair enough that Leopold taking Seek Thermal-hardware, and which seems to be the case with the Tracker and then making something on there own, but rebrands and then flipping a way higher price on the item.. not so much' but perhaps there is hardware differences??ofcourse nothing bad about Seeks as a brand' they have been one of the best things to Budget thermal equipment and have really shaked the market with there lineup.But I do hope that its only a minor partnership and Seek Thermal are not letting other vendors eating them and certainly not Leopold as that would tumble the budget-Seek pricing quite significantly.But from the looks of it all, Leopold was lacking real Thermal-items in their item-portfolio and reached out to Seek and got granted to carry the reveal pro (320x240) and reveal std (206x156) in there lineup and also got yes too' that they could change the Seek name to Leopold.The Tracker std and Tracker HD version, is likely a rebuild of "reveal std" and "reveal pro" hardware' and can't be used an as a rifle-scope as the internals are simply not suited for this kind of brutal kickback and it will ruin any kind of warranty if Leopold sense damage from this kind of rifle-scope-use...https://www.leupold.com/night-vision-thermal-scopes/products(all)

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2018, 06:38:05 pm
content: Certainly it is not uncommon to see Badge engineered products sold at higher prices than the OEM product but in some cases there is 'binning' applied that means the 'badged' product has either been tested for A1 quality or tweaked to provide better performance than the standard mass produced product.I have no knowledge of this Leupold company but I can see them having a deal with SEEK to supply only proven A1 quality assured cameras and cores in order to provide Leopold with a high quality product to sell. Such quality testing would be a chargeable item to Leupold.I have seen this sort of thing before. You can buy the standard mass produced and automated calibration product that works to spec, or you can pay more for a hand checked and calibrated unit that is the Gold Standard product that not only meets the spec, but often exceeds it. This is not uncommon with some specialist thermal camera that I have worked with. The military Magnavox 210 series thermal camera was an AGEMA 210 that had been hand selected and tuned for better performance than the standard unit. This went as far as performance 'binning' the detector array for the Magnavox versions.Why ? Well the Magnavox 210 was supplied to very demanding customersFraser

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2018, 07:04:44 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on July 10, 2018, 06:38:05 pmIt really surprises me you haven't heard of them Fraser considering your past profession.They've been making optical products for many decades and a small rifle scope my dad bought in the mid seventies gave problem and because of their product lifetime warranty some twenty years after purchase I sent it back to Beaverton from NZ for them to remedy it. New guts, eyepiece and objective lens and it came back a few weeks later better than new. All it cost was one-way postage.Many of their customers buy on this alone as their product support is hard to beat.

author: DaneLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2018, 09:09:04 pm
content: This kind of service goes a long way (the mentioned example above) and is certainly not cheap to give such extended warranties and not least be loyal to customers of "old" promises' and it could very much be down to general US customers-experiences like this, there is creating some of this hype about Leopold products, in regards to there optics & scopes.QuoteOnly scope and optics.. electronics and likewise like rangefinders, and thermal-product OPs TrackerHD. its 2 year and need ofcourse proof of purchase..