Selling electronic products into Australia and New Zealand - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2024, 10:59:24 pm
content: This is one of those things where Google is not your friend in trying to find correct information. I got a request for some of my products in both New Zealand and Australia and realized that I have not sold anything there in about 20 years. It's mains operated and the 240 volts at 50/60 hz tolerant is not a problem but I am so far out of the loop that I have no idea if there are any listings or certifications a product needs before it can be legally sold in those markets. Most places have exemptions for the type of things we sell as they are used in agriculture and are sold in very low volume or are in a gray area but I don't have anybody over there in the electronics business who can tell me from practical experiences.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2024, 11:36:02 pm
content: I know I'm not answering your specific questions, but it's worth repeating here, since a lot of businesses (even those locally) get Australian Consumer Law wrong. Ultimately, the law here still applies to you, if you are selling products in Australia, regardless of where you are in the world. ACCC's has a bunch of easy to read information:https://www.accc.gov.au/business/selling-products-and-servicesBut in a nutshell:Consumer rights cannot be waived or "signed away" in a contract.Consumer law rights are independent of any warranties. Your product must be of "acceptable quality", fit for purpose, and have spare parts/repair facilities available (unless the consumer is told otherwise at the time of sale).If there is a "major problem" with the product, it's the consumers choice (not yours) whether a refund or replacement is accepted.If you're a reseller, you cannot fob the customer off onto the manufacturer.If a product is to be returned, it does not have to be in original packaging and a business cannot deny a remedy on these grounds.If the product is large, heavy or hard to remove (e.g.: a dishwasher), the business is responsible for collection/shipping costs.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 01:26:03 am
content: Interesting question...I thinking of offering an online service, which will be offered around the world.My service offers a 9 month free trial to my intended customers.At the 9 month trial end, the customer service will stop unless payment is made.On the grounds that I did offer a 9 month evaluation period, the paid service is identical, and I disclosed to the customer that they are about to pay for 1 year of continued service, are there any grounds for said customer in Australia to demand their money back a week after they paid me? (My service after payment would continue normally, no differences.)

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 02:48:05 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on October 21, 2024, 01:26:03 amI'd have to do some research however, my answer at the moment is going to be "no". As long as the service they are receiving is what was advertised and what they signed up for. There is no clause that simply allows for "change of mind". You may of course offer to honour that yourself out of "good will". You just want to be clear up-front about what the service is and what happens after x-days/months whatever. It doesn't have to be in "legalese" either.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 03:33:46 am
content: Refunds for services (rather than goods) is a bit of a grey area in general. Probably depends on local laws too. But generally speaking, as long as you provide the service that was agreed upon in a contract, the client should not have grounds for demanding a refund. It's not like they can change their mind - that wouldn't make sense, as a service is not something tangible. They can ask for a refund (usually) if they can give evidence your service is not what you advertised. To avoid that, you need to be extra clear about what your services are, and any possible warranty period (typically a period after payment during which the client can dispute the quality/relevance of your service and ask for a fix.)If you provide not just one-time services but something like an ongoing subscription, then it may become trickier and I'd suggest consulting your local laws. In any case, you'd have to give a lot of details in the contract, like what happens if the client has paid say for a whole year but hasn't requested anything from you in that period: can they ask for a refund, or is it on them? Etc.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 05:49:11 am
content: My main concern would be repairs. I would probably want to find an electronics repair facility there that could handle the most common repairs and/or determine weather or not something should be covered under warranty or was abuse/act of god type of damage to avoid having to ship it all the way back to the US.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 01:33:11 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 20, 2024, 11:36:02 pmThese are even more strict that EU customer protections. I was aware that australian regulations are strong, but this is stronger than i expected.Consumer protection requirements are often given as a reason (besides tax shenanigans) that stuff is more expensive in the EU than in the US.I often hear that stuff is expensive in Australia as well, but the major reason i see given is that Australia is an island and shipping is expensive. Seeing these consumer rights though i would assume that they are also a major cost increasing factor.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 02:45:33 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on October 21, 2024, 01:33:11 pmThey are definitely very strict. I have heard of cases of e.g. Mercedes having to take back an entire car some two years after a three year warranty expired as it had a major fault and this was deemed to be unacceptable quality.In terms of additional cost increase I would be surprised if it is that high - maybe a few percent. Many customers will, after all, be satisfied with their purchase; you don't remain in business long if you piss off the majority of your customers.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 09:03:35 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on October 21, 2024, 01:33:11 pmThey only apply to dealing with an Australian entity as a consumer. Plenty of retailers actively court Australian consumers with .com.au websites but the deal is actually done with a Singapore/Hongkong/Malaysia/etc company and the customer is technically a "importer" despite the goods already being in Australia. Same if you buy from a marketplace or arbitrary overseas retailer/supplier, you become the importer and have basically zero protection. Unlike some of the European rules or the UK distance selling rules.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 09:07:35 pm
content: Quote from: calexanian on October 20, 2024, 10:59:24 pmAs you went on to mention having a local repairer, most products of this nature go down one of two routes:Have a local distributor who takes care of all of it for you.orSell direct to the customers and it's their problem.Being somewhere in the middle you'll want to find a compliance expert/consultant who can quickly assess which standards are applicable and where they have recognised international equivalents/near-matches. That should cut right down on the new testing required but if you've not been selling into Canada (a similarly strict jurisdiction) then you'll probably have some changes required to meet boring bits of the standards.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 09:18:44 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 21, 2024, 02:45:33 pmha ha ha ha ha, you've clearly not checked what happens with Australian distribution chains. Generally distributors will mark up 20-30-40% and add nothing more than local warehousing. No spare parts, no repair, no support, or anything else in country. Just an exclusive distribution contract and manufacturers who can then disclaim warranty support because you grey imported.Exclusive geographic distribution was supposed to be eliminated in various free trade agreements, but companies such as Fluke merrily continue on without any way for an Australian consumer to actually enforce their rights. Similar with the consumer rights, many companies will simply leave you to the courts as the penalties to companies for not meeting the consumer law are basically zero for a case by case basis (consumer pays their own costs and is not reimbursed/compensated for pursuing the matter) and only come in for widespread failures that the government regulator pursue (rarely/almost never).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 10:29:49 pm
content: I'm still waiting if anyone can comment on applicable certifications. Surely Australia must have something similar to CE and FCC?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 11:17:19 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 21, 2024, 10:29:49 pmAustralia has mostly harmonised with EU for safety standards, but adds some minor differences here and there. The expensive bit it matching up the specifics of the product to exactly which ASxxxxxx standard applies.Australian Standards? That'd be Standards Australia:https://www.standards.org.au

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 11:30:26 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 21, 2024, 09:03:35 pmAbsolutely not, and this is where a lot of people are mistaken.It's quite clearly stated that "When an overseas business sells products directly to consumers in Australia, the business must follow the Australian Consumer Law, including the consumer guarantees."With respect to "importers", they could be considered a "manufacturer" under the relevant part of the act (Schedule 2, Section 7, Competition and Consumer Act), which would still have responsibilities under the act. There's no way a court would accept an individual purchasing an item for themselves as an importer, they would be consider a consumer under the act.If you're a legitimate business operator, you're best operating within the law, rather than trying to make the law fit within your dodgy dealings. Courts have seen this all before.For those who want some bedtime reading:https://www.legislation.gov.au/C2004A00109/latest/text

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 02:13:17 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 21, 2024, 11:30:26 pmI'll refer to a learned expert on the matter:https://www.monash.edu/law/news/archive/archive/expert-legal-commentary-application-of-australian-consumer-law-to-overseas-internet-purchasesQuoteQuoteOpen ended legal question that would cost .$.$.$.$ to answer, and still .$.$.$.$ more to try and enforce. When it comes to overseas businesses (and even overseas headquartered businesses that do have Australian entities) the ACL is ineffective and generally considered inapplicable. Trying to force laws to extend into other countries is a joke.You can quote the ACCC all day long with their interpretation, but they aren't working for you and generally dont lift a finger even when flagrant breaches of their orders are pointed out to them.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 03:05:29 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 22, 2024, 02:13:17 amHe does make some good points, however, this seems to be an edge-case; "hypothetical" as he says himself. It starts to go outside the scope of what is being discussed in this thread. In any case, I would take the advice of the ACCC and my interpretation of the law, over an article written by some professor. Ultimately, it's the court who decides, if there is ambiguity. Whilst yes, ACL might be difficult or near impossible to enforce on overseas businesses, it still doesn't make it any less applicable. I'm talking about doing the right thing, rather than being dodgy about it.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 03:08:53 am
content: Also, I don't know Australia, but it's probably the same as here in New Zealand, where all these "consumer protection" laws go out the window if the product is being purchased by a business, for use (except incidentally) in commercial activities.The OP says "the type of things we sell as they are used in agriculture", which would certainly be outside of consumer law here in NZ.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 03:11:11 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on October 22, 2024, 03:08:53 amACL can also apply to business consumers, however there are limitations.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 04:16:31 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 22, 2024, 03:11:11 amIn NZ it's only things that would normally be bought by consumers, when the use of it by the business is substantially the same as how a consumer would use it.e.g. if you buy a vacuum cleaner or fridge or TV to use in your staff lunchroom then it will be covered. If you use the vacuum cleaner 8 hours a day to clean company offices then it's not.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 04:22:03 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 21, 2024, 02:48:05 amI also suspect there is no clear cut law in this regard.It's common for companies to have clear policies like "If you don't like your first lesson, we'll refund you" etc.If you ever get taken to court over it, unless the law is clear in regards to something, or there is suitable similar case law to work from, the court is likely to err on the side of the formal Terms & Conditions imposed at time of sale.Usual smart business practice dictates just refund the customer if they kick up a stink, as the cost of any legal defense isalwaysgoing to be way larger.And you just rely on it not happening that often.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 04:30:42 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on October 22, 2024, 04:16:31 amWhilst usage does come down to it, here it's more along the lines of "did you buy it to resell it, or did you buy it to use within your business?" (among other things).What you're talking about would come under the consumer law protection of a product being "reasonably durable", which of course is treated on a case-by-case basis as there is no defined definition. You're right though, if you buy a cheap vacuum cleaner designed for light domestic use, and use it for several hours a day, or perhaps in a workshop, then no, I don't think you could successfully make that argument of a major failure occurring due to durability concerns.Where you might have an argument is if you bought a car for the business. With all other things being equal, whether you use the car for business or private travel really doesn't matter.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 06:41:27 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 21, 2024, 10:29:49 pmhttps://www.eess.gov.au/rcm/regulatory-compliance-mark-rcm-general/For small sales quantities: I've seen lots of companies just stick with overseas (eg european) certs. I of course can't comment on the legality of this.AS/NZS 3100:2022 would be a good start. Much of it is filled with tables taken from IEC standards though

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 08:45:00 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 22, 2024, 04:30:42 amI would not expect a car manufacturer to honour a5 year "unlimited mileage" warrantyon a car that a salesman is driving 100,000 km a year.I note that in NZ Hyundai give a 3 year / 100,000 km warranty.

author: Poroit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 08:57:21 am
content: G'day Charles,I had a look at your product range.https://www.saaapprovals.com.au/resources/frequently-asked-questions/As long as your product complies with an equivalent standard to AS/NZS 3820 you should be OK.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 12:48:29 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 21, 2024, 11:30:26 pmThat may be but how is Australian law going to be applied to a foreign entity (abroad, outside of Australia)? For FCC compliance -for example- you need to have a representative residing in the US. As a foreign entity you can hire a US based entity to represent you as a manufacturer for such a purpose; you'll be paying something I'd call an insurance fee to them.And then there is the question what if a consumer brings something into Australia without the manufacturer knowing? How can Australian law then be applied? IMHO there is a lot to say for the system where there has to be a legal entity within the borders who is actually responsible for a product being compliant. In the EU this is typically the main importer of the product.Don't get me wrong. I'm all for good consumer protection as this creates a level playing field where everyone can thrive and people are happy with their products which they can trust.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 10:20:02 pm
content: Thank you very much. This looks like where I need to look. Since our product is used in a commercial setting AS/NZS 3820 looks like where I need to be.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 11:40:47 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on October 22, 2024, 08:45:00 amI did say "with all other things equal". There are limits to everything, whether statutory or otherwise. My point was the purpose of the trip doesn't suddenly change anything.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 11:43:17 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 22, 2024, 12:48:29 pmThe law considers this. If a consumer imports a product, outside the manufacturer's/supplier's usual shipping policy, for example, if I bought a product that wasn't sold here and used something like Shipito to have it forwarded to Australia, then ACL doesn't apply. The law applies to businesses who conduct their business or sell their goods/services to Australian consumers.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 03:39:32 pm
content: AS/NZS 3820 is behind a pay wall like UL or ETL documents are over here (booooo, hiss...) Its not prohibitively expensive. $63 for the single user online option but I am curious if anybody is familiar with it and can give me a brief idea what the scope of it is. Is it more technical like here is how your grounding must be and users cant touch mains terminals, etc common sense stuff or is it more bureaucratic in nature with just a list of references to other documents I must then buy like UL does?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 09:34:21 pm
content: Quote from: calexanian on October 23, 2024, 03:39:32 pmYes, that second one. It's a high level overview of requirements.

author: Poroit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 07:50:48 am
content: G'day Charles,AS/NZS 3820 equivalents are IEC/UL 60335 or IEC/UL 61010 or NFPA 70.I suggest you email US Commercial Service at one of our embassies as they are normally very helpful.The one for Perth is below.https://au.usembassy.gov/perth/#commercial-service

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 06:20:44 pm
content: Thank You. I believe I have access to the IEC/UL standards.