Counterfeit AKM Parts - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 05:59:45 pm
content: I was bitten by the counterfeit chip problem. Parts off Alibaba did not work in my design while a previous 8,000 genuine parts did. Here is a good part with important features noted.Here are the counterfeit chips with the features marked.The lettering style is different, but it seems AKM uses different markings at different assembly plants. Here is one I sent to AKM some time ago when we suspected some devices.The marking on the suspect chip and the previously suspected chip are similar, but the previously suspected chip turned out to work ok. The thing in common with the good chips is the pin 1 mark is molded rather than laser etched as on the suspected chip.I've had some back and forth with the supplier. Initially he wanted me to test more chips, but I explained the contract assembler is 200 miles from me and they charge for their time, so it would be $1000 for the trip and expenses. He's talking to his supplier.I don't think this guy knew the parts were counterfeit. His source might not know. What I'm wondering now is how many of these parts are like this? Each vendor has a different price. Everyone I tell about there being a lower price says anyone cheaper than them are not selling genuine parts. So maybe that means they are all fakes. That's the really bad part of this. I don't know if I can get real parts at all.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 06:18:20 pm
content: People who buy parts for production from alibaba must be living in a parallel Universe....

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 06:20:24 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on April 03, 2021, 06:18:20 pmFYI AKM factory burned down and if you want to produce anything without redesigning, you will have no other option other than to buy at shady places.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 06:24:58 pm
content: I'm expecting a $4 million order and it would be nice to be able to fill it. I believe there are still parts available. The issue is what you have to pay to get them them. Apparently something more than what I paid for these.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 07:10:37 pm
content: If you're expecting a $4M order, that $1000 assembly / test fee is lost in the rounding errors. Get on and pay it, or buy a heat gun and swap the parts yourself, it's a total no-brainer.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 07:22:56 pm
content: I don't think you understand. I've already tested the parts. They are counterfeit. Done and dusted. It's the seller who was asking about testing more units. What are the chances that you pick two out of 500 (I used one from each end of the tape so they weren't next to each other) and they are both bad if the parts are real? I don't think we've had any bad devices of his part number in building 8,000 units. Even if the parts were 1 bad in 1000 parts on the average, seeing two back to back is a 1 in 1,000,000 chance.Maybe I should forget electronics and play the lottery or bet at the race track?

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 07:48:48 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 03, 2021, 07:22:56 pmBased on yourrecordluck with AKM parts, I'd say stick to electronics...But...Part of me says any parts that don't come from licensed distirbutors are likely to be suspect. Any parts that come from a China based middleman are probably fakes. You are between a rock and a hard place. I think the suggestion to redesign is your best bet. I am skeptical that you can test your way out of it.One thought is to talk directly to AKM - maybe they can point you in the right direction. Like a large buyer of the part. If, indeed, the parts are actually out there, you need to follow the distribution chain to find who might be holding them.And, I would go back to your customer and renegotiate the deal. That happens all the time. If they want your product, they may be willing to wait longer or pay more for sooner delivery.good luck!

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 07:49:46 pm
content: If I understand correctly this is the deal you posted previously where you have a contractor who resells to the government or DOD or something like that and you wanted to avoid redesign and felt that you could pass almost any cost onto your customer.Sotwothree questions.1) How much is it worth to not redesign to an available part? Is it worth most of a million dollars to avoid that--and still have to deal with a sketchy supply chain and a part that will likely never come back to production? What happens in a few years when they need another batch?2) What happens if the parts are counterfeit but they pass testing, only to have a higher failure rate or some other problem down the line? Is testing really an acceptable substitute for documented supply chain management?3) Have you consulted an attorney to determine the scope of your potential liabilities in this? And I don't just mean civil liabilities.My unsolicited, uncompensated legal advice is......"Yikes, dude!"

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 08:15:14 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on April 03, 2021, 07:49:46 pmThat's close. I'm impressed you remember all that. I sell my board to a major networking company who uses it in their systems which are sold to the general market which is often the federal government.QuoteThis is all stuff that is in consideration, but not the immediate issue. They are projecting a need this summer for some number of units (It's always fuzzy to me if units are *my* units or theirs as there can be a 2:1 or even 8:1 difference depending on the product). So a new design could not be ready before then since it would require various certs.I contacted them soon after the factory fire and being a large company it is taking them a long time to weigh the factors. Right now they are talking about buying some number of my boards for the 2 year forecast. Anything beyond that would be a new design which is in consideration.QuoteWhat happens if any part on the board in spite of "documented supply chain management" develops a high failure rate? I provide a year warranty and beyond that its on the customer. I don't think the counterfeits are real parts. They often remark a different part in the same package, so the parts don't work from day one.QuoteYikes, indeed!

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 08:28:09 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 03, 2021, 08:15:14 pmHave your lawyer explain the difference between your product developing a high failure rate and causing mayhem due to failures of genuine parts that you procured through documented channels and approved suppliers vs due to the failures of some parts you bought from some shady vendor in an alley (like Alley Baba) at a cut rate price. Of course it depends upon the consequences of the failure to some degree, but those are two different scenarios entirely.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 08:45:59 pm
content: It says 4556VTP. According to the datasheet, it should be marked as 4556VT. It would be silly for the counterfeiters to add extra letters. Might be some special part, or a different part altogether. I would verify this with the manufacturer.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 09:30:20 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on April 03, 2021, 08:45:59 pmGood catch, but it is a marking used internally.From the AKM web site... one of the few useful pages there. Their site has become uniquely ineffective. I have an account on the web site but there is no way to log in.Quote

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 09:43:46 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on April 03, 2021, 08:28:09 pm

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 10:26:23 pm
content: Other people will have this chip in their designs, some of them will have more reason to resist redesign than you (e.g directly into military/aerospace/automotive) that has an extensive test and verification process they can't avoid or it was already ordered years ago. Others will have had deeper pockets and quicker responses and purchased every bit of stock they could find. I think you need a really really good reason not to design in another chip, while many of the others DACs out there do have config over SPI/I2C/whatever you wanted to avoid, many also have some config that can be done without or at least a reasonable default, for a contract of that value I'd say it was worth it to have an alternative variant spun up around something sourceable. At the very least I think it would be an idea to let a specialist company who already has the contacts and facilities to track down verify and test possible stock, at least that way if something goes badly you can share the blame.Some factories run parts at fixed schedules, if the fire caught AKM right at the wrong point that stock you think exists may not, I'd be very concerned if none of the typical only slightly shady brokers claim to have access to stock because that means even they don't trust the vendors that claim to have it.While I'm sure you've tried it. Putting that part into some brokers sites lists 9000 where the manufacturer field is blank (laziness?) and 2500 under AKM I can see that onhttps://www.electronics-direct.com/who are English and I know and some random US sitehttps://www.broadlinecomponents.com/so clearly pulling that data from the same place. Octopart find lower alleged volumes via two other places who are less clear on their status although they look like brokers to me.I don't think it matters if you warranty something for a year and slightly dodgy parts just eke you out past that, if the end customer starts seeing a beyond reasonable failure rate, they could investigate it themselves and start following the traceability trail. Given you live in the land of suing the socks off everyone in sight, I wouldn't want to be the holder of that broken link.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 10:44:05 pm
content: I am not surprised that, after such event, the market is flooded with counterfeit parts.Quote from: gnuarm on April 03, 2021, 08:15:14 pmIn the similar scenarios I have experienced, unfortunately at this point there's not much to be done apart from contacting the manufacturer - after all, this event is six months old and maybe they have an alternative. Back when you contacted them, their procurement department should have been nimble... I have seen this scenario multiple times and was at the other end of the phone with mad customers unable to fulfill production deadlines.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2021, 12:36:37 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on April 03, 2021, 08:28:09 pmThis - you can claim whatever warranty you want but if you are caught out knowingly sourcing very questionable parts (and what's more, documenting it on an open forum like this!) you're opening yourself up to litigation no matter what country you're in!I would have commenced redesign the instant I became aware of the issue. As much as a headache a redesign is, to me it's far less of a headache than sourcing an obscure part from random Asian suppliers!

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2021, 10:33:35 am
content: Our associated firm makes cinema/pro audio devices. After exisitng stock is depleted, we halted production of all AKM containing products in 2021.Redesign is one option.The many IC fab plant fires are suspicious, Renases, AKM, Taiwan.Perhaps we have IC wars?Jon

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2021, 02:21:02 pm
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on April 08, 2021, 12:40:22 pmNot if you get caught.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2021, 02:30:14 pm
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on April 08, 2021, 12:40:22 pmFirst of all, insurance companies do not like to give their money away and will try to find any loophole possible to not pay. Secondly, why would you chose the worst moment possible when factories are churning at maximum load possible due to component shortage.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2021, 03:24:59 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 08, 2021, 02:30:14 pmHe's just messing. The company was very seriously hurt by the fire. They lost a lot of money in this fire directly. Insurance only covers assets. They have many employees who are out of work, so find work elsewhere losing their experience. They have lost a lot of sales while the plant is down. Worse, it is too expensive to resume manufacturing on many of their older products which were still selling well costing them profits indefinitely.The part I need is one of these parts they are not putting back into production. The part they are recommending for replacement is 24 pins vs. 20 for the old one. The package is smaller being a QFN, but for no good reason has a thermal pad eating up more real estate than the TSSOP it replaces.The real issue for me is once the respin can of worms is open, the FPGA gets replaced and there are no good alternatives. Everything available is either long in the tooth or uses a BGA package, mostly very difficult to route BGAs with way more pins than needed. Lattice has a number of QFN/QFP package options, but not with enough I/Os (~60).I have often lamented how the FPGA world is so focused on the high dollar devices. Lattice supports the mobile market with some small parts, but with very tiny packages that are not practical for my work. I may end up replacing a 100 pin QFP with a 256 pin BGA.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2021, 03:42:24 pm
content: Our colleagues took about 1 yr to redesign old audio products to replace costly and obscelescent DSPs from Motorola or TI, with ARM.Jon

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2021, 06:48:08 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 08, 2021, 03:24:59 pmIs it an option to use multiple of the tiny FPGAs in parallel, or don't things work that tidily?

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2021, 08:39:39 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 08, 2021, 06:48:08 pmAnything is possible, but it would be a large PITA. Even if possible, multiple small devices end up needing more total pins and more real estate which is the big problem.I've never worked on an FPGA DAC, but it might be possible to use sigma delta converters within the FPGA or even PWM. I'm presently working on FPGA based ADC for a project with much less demanding requirements. 16 bits at 48 ksps requires over 3 Gbps. I don't think that is realistic. Telephony quality is much easier, 13/14 bits at 8 ksps requiring 131 MHz.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2021, 10:43:15 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 03, 2021, 05:59:45 pmI'm certain you can, its just going to be a large effort. eg those "used" parts we found in the previous thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/buying-on-alibaba/You'd likely have to factor in the cost of someone either creating a test jig, or, hand re-working any boards that failed initial testing. Having a CM deal with possible counterfeit parts is a large time/money sink.The funny thing is you were going to use parts that were clearly sanded + re-lasered. So they may have been salvaged (if they worked).

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2021, 12:21:13 am
content: No, there was no "going to use parts that were sanded...". The markings are not obviously wrong until we had the failures, then we looked at them harder. It was only under the microscope that they appeared to be odd. The pin 1 marker is a good indicator although that could be made correctly.When I compared the parts under the microscope I thought the differences indicated counterfeit parts. But I had gone through this exercise previously when another fab house had trouble getting boards to work. Looking at the images the suspect part had very similar markings to the counterfeit chip in this case. However, AKM confirmed that chip was good. In this case the only visual indicators was the laser marked pin 1 indicator and after contacting AKM for these parts, they confirmed the date code is invalid.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2021, 02:41:48 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 09, 2021, 12:21:13 amThese chips were sanded/grinded and blacktopped. Sharp edges and weird surface is a giveaway. You can rub them with acetone and marking should come off. Alcohol may work as well but it's less effective. Best to be done on not reflowed parts because after baking blacktopping may become very robust.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2021, 05:42:04 am
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on April 09, 2021, 01:07:30 amLikely something else entirely different that has been remarked.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2021, 09:58:15 am
content: $4M order??? Design out the AKM part unless you can get a reel from an official authorised AKM distributor.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2021, 10:21:38 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on April 10, 2021, 09:58:15 amWell, one other option is to set up a test station to test the chips as they come in. If you can get a vendor to agree, set up an escrow transaction, if the supplied chips pass testing, you release payment. Othwerwise, you return the fakes and get your money back. Of course, if there really are NO REAL parts sitting on a shelf anywhere, then redesign is the ONLY option.Jon

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 12:17:10 am
content: AKM has confirmed the parts are not genuine AKM parts because they have a 'P' at the end of the part number (which AKM never adds to the part) and have an invalid date code. So really, had we known this, we would not have needed to test anything.When this was shared with the seller he claimed the parts are "refurbished" whatever that means. If the markings are not genuine they can't even be "used" parts. Whoever produced these took parts off boards in the same package and marked then with new markings. Someone here posted something to that effect, but they described something with ink or whatever. Chips today are marked with a laser abrading the surface of the chip. The point is these parts are absolutely not genuine chips and never were.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 02:33:39 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 11, 2021, 12:17:10 amMake sure you write a negative review, so that other people would know not to buy from this seller.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 03:25:33 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on April 11, 2021, 02:33:39 pmFeedback like that is good. Though, there seems to be a standard Aliexpress business plan of changing names when the negative reviews pile up. I'm afraid that this will never change. I guess business ethics are not very important to the Aliwhatever retailers.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 03:28:20 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 11, 2021, 12:17:10 amI'm guessing in this case "refurbished" means random parts remarket to what ever in that package has the highest price at the moment

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 04:22:36 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 08, 2021, 08:39:39 pmHow did you get 3Gbps? I only get 16*48=768kbps

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 04:45:48 pm
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on April 11, 2021, 03:25:33 pmNot Aliexpress, Alibaba. Same company, but not the same web site. No reviews.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 04:50:39 pm
content: Quote from: exe on April 11, 2021, 04:22:36 pmDelta-sigma modulation rate at the input, not bit rate for the samples. I don't know if this could be made to work at 16 ENOB, but it would be fun trying. I'm presently working on an ADC that samples at 33 MHz and only needs a 200 Hz sample rate. That gives 17 bits in the output even if the accuracy is nowhere near that. At least it has a lot of filtering. lolOnce in operation I may reduce the input sample rate to reduce nonlinear effects in the analog/digital interface. So it may end up with only 14 or 15 bits, but they should be more linear.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 06:47:44 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 11, 2021, 04:45:48 pmThere are reviews on Alibaba. They typically send you an email with a link for the review after you confirm the order completion. Or you can log in, click orders and leave review. You have 30 days for reviews or disputes. If the manufacturer confirmed chips were fake, you have a good chance to get your money back.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 07:06:28 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on April 11, 2021, 06:47:44 pmHow do you read reviews of vendors on Alibaba? I had an opportunity to leave feedback, but I have no idea if anyone other than Alibaba can read that.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 07:37:41 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 11, 2021, 07:06:28 pmClick on the name of the supplier. The page will open which contains a menu. From the menu, select Profile->Company Overview. Look for the orange score - it is somewhat on the right side, close to the top of the page. Click on it and read the reviews.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 08:21:42 pm
content: They certainly don't make that easy to find. Regardless, no bad reviews at all. They probably are fake like on Amazon.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 08:23:29 pm
content: Let me ask this. I had about $2,000 out of pocket expenses for the unexpected tariff and the testing costs. Is it reasonable to expect this vendor to compensate me for that on top of the refund?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 08:57:18 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 11, 2021, 08:23:29 pmGood luck with that.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 09:53:15 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 11, 2021, 08:57:18 pmI didn't mean to ask if it is realistic. I mean if it was a reasonable demand given the fraudulent nature of selling counterfeit goods.I do expect to get my payment back through the credit card company if nothing else. Then the guy will be out the money I gave him. He can then recoup something by reimbursing me. I return the parts so he can get a refund from his supplier.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 10:10:28 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 11, 2021, 08:23:29 pmReasonable to ask, sure. I don't like your chances though!

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 10:59:17 pm
content: It depends on how pragmatic the vendor is. If he paid $4000 for the chips and wants to get his money back, will he pay $2000 for them?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 11:39:02 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 11, 2021, 10:59:17 pmIf the original seller knows they are fake... do they care about getting them back?Ususally I just get my money back, and get asked to dispose of the bad parts...

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 11:44:45 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 11, 2021, 08:21:42 pmYou have an opportunity to change things for the better and write a bad review.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 01:08:38 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 11, 2021, 11:39:02 pmHe claims he can get his money back. Fine, but I want to be reimbursed for my expenses. I actually paid out of pocket $1900 plus 400 miles of driving and a day of my work time.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 01:11:57 am
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on April 11, 2021, 11:44:45 pmYeah, sure, but I should do that at the end of the process so I have all the details. Not that I expect it will make any difference. It looks like the guy has people put up fake reviews. Instead of reviews from many individuals, there are many reviews from a small number of individuals.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 08:57:54 am
content: Did you try to contact alibaba for their advice? Although, in many places I've seen disclaimers like "our warranty doesn't cover damages and liability". But then again, if you really want to know your rights, you need a layer. And even then, suing a seller in China over $2k sounds like your just gonna lose even more money (but IANAL*).* "I am not a laywer" acronym

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 02:14:03 pm
content: I didn't say anything about suing anyone. I said I would not return the items until compensated for my losses. I am confident I can get my purchase price back through the credit card company. I would like to recover the other money spent on getting these goods into the country and testing them. The seller can still recover a portion of his losses by cooperating with me.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 09:06:35 pm
content: The seller won't pay you anything unless they realllly care about their rep/rating. I don't see how he can recover "a portion of his losses", the chips are worthless.I'm sure you could get a refund if you proved the items were returned or destroyed:https://www.cbp.gov/trade/programs-administration/entry-summary/drawbackhttp://www.ftn.fedex.com/us/services/drawback.shtmlWhether its worth your time, I don't know.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 09:19:39 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 12, 2021, 02:14:03 pmToo sure of themselves Jedi are.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 09:32:44 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on April 12, 2021, 09:19:39 pmOh, here in the US, certainly American Express and Discover, as well as Visa/MC cards issued by big banks, will immediately credit your account with the amount under dispute. And it is rare that a dispute will be settled in the merchant's favor -- the card issuers want to keep their cardholder customers, as they know those customers have a choice in what card to use. The merchants (the card issuer's other customers!) really have no choice if they want access to customer credit cards.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 03:42:01 pm
content: With the AKM parts I have learned what markings are on good parts and what markings indicate a counterfeit part. That's not 100%, but good enough to at least eliminate the large majority of counterfeits. I have wired $40,000 to a vendor who supplied me with 10 parts that have been tested. This is mediated by Alibaba, so in theory I would be able to return the parts and get a refund if they are not good.With the ADI part, things aren't so simple. The AKM part has a date code and they will validated specific date codes if sent to them. ADI won't divulge their marking format or any details. They also won't provide an indication of valid or invalid markings if photos are sent to them. So I can't say for sure that any parts are counterfeit by looking at images. Every part I have handled in the 13 years I've been buying them was the same, the part number split onto three lines with the middle line containing the ADI logo and an embossed pin one mark. Some 90% of the parts I find on the web put the part number on two lines with a pound sign and three digits on the third line, usually with a laser etched pine 1 mark. I'm pretty sure these are counterfeit, but I can't be sure if ADI won't confirm their format in any way. ADI did say a pound sign is used in part numbers (in general) to indicate lead free, but they won't say if this part uses that or not. Every part I have is lead free, but no pound signs.One distributor who seems to be other than an Alibaba phantom is chip1cloud.com. They have emailed me that they have a number of the ADG1411YRUZ for a reasonable price. But they want payment in advance and don't seem to be talking about an escrow agent. I can't find anything on the web to indicate they are a scam operation. Anyone heard of them or used them?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 03:51:04 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on May 11, 2021, 03:42:01 pmEven when you work for a semiconductor vendor, and are used to its markings, it can be hard to reliably tell a fake. Sometimes you see labelling that looks a little different, think its a fake, and when you ask enough people you find a particular A&T house was used for some batches, and the labelling looks a little different. Its quite a messy business.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 04:05:18 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 11, 2021, 03:51:04 pmYes, I have photos I sent to AKM a few years ago when we suspected parts that were labeled differently. It was two different assembly houses. At least AKM was and still is willing to work with me.Here is a photo of one of the ADI parts I suspect is fake. Pin 1 mark is laser etched rather than embossed and the third line is not on any part I've bought.Here is one of mine.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 09:57:47 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on April 12, 2021, 09:32:44 pmYep, merchants have to spread the cost of those refunds onto the rest of their customers...

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 02:16:04 am
content: With 4M$ order in my hands, I'd roll up sleeves and got on with redesign already instead of all this useless talking and complaining. And no matter the order amount, I would never ever ship a device to my commercial customer with chips from anywhere except official sources. Because sooner or later it will be discovered, and I don't really want to have a discussion about this with my customers as I can't think of a way for such conversations to go well for me.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 03:08:33 am
content: Quote from: asmi on May 12, 2021, 02:16:04 amAs evident in his other recent thread, he's too busy working out ways to profit shift and dodge paying tax

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 03:53:35 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on May 12, 2021, 02:16:04 amRedesign is not an option. The customer is fully aware of the situation and has even offered the names of brokers for these parts. So nothing to discover.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 04:27:09 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on May 12, 2021, 03:53:35 pmOf course it's an option. Especially since you use FPGA so that you can make sure redesigned version works exactly like original (which is not always possible in non-FPGA designs).

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 05:46:55 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on May 12, 2021, 04:27:09 pmWhy do you say that when you know literallyNOTHINGabout the business arrangement?

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 06:03:42 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on May 12, 2021, 05:46:55 pmBecause I'm an engineer who was trained to never take "no" for an answer on whether something is possible. And because using gray market parts for commercial products is unethical (and can be also illegal in some cases). Finally, because it annoys the crap out of me when someone chooses to waste time bitching and moaning instead of rolling up sleeves and doing what needs to be done, even though knowing full well that it will need to happen at some point anyway."Those who wants to do something are looking for a way, those who don't want to do it are looking for excuse" (C)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 06:20:39 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on May 12, 2021, 06:03:42 pm. The fact you can redesign something from engineering standpoint, does not mean that it will work from business perspective and that your customer will accept that.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 07:08:35 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 12, 2021, 06:20:39 pmBe careful with your head.Quote from: wraper on May 12, 2021, 06:20:39 pmIf the part you use is no longer produced, you will have to do a redesign anyway. So there is little point in delaying inevitable. But there is every incentive to do it ASAP when you still have time.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 11:06:30 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on May 12, 2021, 07:08:35 pmand if the customer says No! ?afaiu the part is still in production but, like everything else at the moment, out of stock everywhere

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 11:44:46 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on May 12, 2021, 06:03:42 pmIf you don't like "bitching and moaning", why doyoudo so much of it?If you don't like the conversation, perhaps you should not be in it?

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 11:50:51 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 12, 2021, 06:20:39 pmThey have refused to let me use an alternate part for one with a VERY long lead time. But the terms and conditions state I can make substitutions, so if it comes down to being able to build all the boards or not, I will build a number of them and ship them with an indication of the substitution. They can plug them in and test them or ship them back and we will end the production run at that point.The part is an analog switch in a 600 ohm audio circuit, with a 50 ohm option. The ADI part is typ 1.5 ohms and the Maxim part is 2.5 ohms. With four switches in each differential path I don't think anyone will see the difference. Certainly not in the 600 ohm application which is all they really use anymore.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 11:54:11 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on May 12, 2021, 07:08:35 pmAgain, you don't know anything about the circumstances. There will be no redesign at all. Take my word for it.As it is turning out, the AKM parts are still around to be found, just at a high price. I found a US company that is not fly by night and they seem to be able to get this one... at $15 above the China prices. They are buying from China, but have more reliable sources than I do. So I expect I will let them get the rest for me.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 11:57:04 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on May 12, 2021, 11:06:30 pmThe ADI part is in production, but with a 1 year lead time. The AKM part was made in a factory that burned down and AKM is not putting that and several other parts back into production. They will be supplying a part in Sept that will be a superset of several parts. With the global semiconductor shortage, I'm surprised they can find any spare capacity.

author: nudge
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2021, 09:31:18 am
content: Pioneer DJ started designing AKM parts out of some of their devices, including the top end CDJ-3000:https://www.pioneerdj.com/en-us/news/2021/fire-incident-at-the-asahi-kasei-microdevices-factory/