What's up with the pricing of ADI development tools?!? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 08:11:23 pm
content: I was askingthiswhen I ran across some cheap ADSP-BF531 samples, yet still ended up spending a few times more than the chips on second-hand development hardware and had to use a cracked version of VisualDSP++. And for the scaled down ADAU1761 project the ADUSB2EBZ tool, which is essentially a CY7C68013, still costs close to $100 new. What's up with Analog Devices and their pricing on development tools, even for their low cost chips and platforms?There is actually a pretty big DIY Hi-Fi audio community out there, at least in China, that worships ADI like an religion (aka some branches of audiophoolery,) but this kind of tool pricing and sales policy kind of shut down the DIY communities.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 08:25:47 pm
content: Quote from: technix on April 04, 2018, 08:11:23 pmThe ADSP-BF531 is an ancient device, at the end of its life. Analog Devices have no incentive to provide cheap tools to promote it. If a part is both recent, AND is looking for a large number of design ins (many parts only target a handle of customers) you are much more likely to find cheap tools available from the vendor.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 08:38:47 pm
content: e.g. those IMUs for avionics.those made by Analog Devices usually add one or two zero to the figure."Just for your fun", they sayand Avionics companies seem to be happy to pay

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 08:44:35 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 04, 2018, 08:25:47 pmThe same tools targeting ADSP-BF531 chip can be used for Blackfin+, SHARC and TigerSHARC chips too, and ADI is still pumping new chips in those lines. As of ADSP-BF531 itself, it is still in full production too.Quote from: legacy on April 04, 2018, 08:38:47 pmNot hobbyists... As I mentioned above there is a section of hobbyists that is very keen on ADI parts, but get scared away by their pricing. Only if they priced their entry level tools cheaper... Check freeDSP maybe?

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 09:02:19 pm
content: Quote from: technix on April 04, 2018, 08:44:35 pmAnalogDevice isNOTfor hobbyists.That is the point.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 09:10:06 pm
content: Quote from: technix on April 04, 2018, 08:44:35 pmFFS. How irritating it is when teens of every age want to be real men, and to show that they need to open topics where they say they want to play with pro tools but then complaining then that it's for hobby and don't have the money.Can't you find a job, where you have customers paying for your projects, and it's your boss that pays for tools, software, etc?No, you need to waste people's time with that crap

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 09:10:26 pm
content: Quote from: legacy on April 04, 2018, 09:02:19 pmWell, no silicon vendor cares much about hobbyists. What many do care about is getting large volumes of cheap tools into the hands of students, who will take their familiarity with the device family into industry with them.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 09:34:18 pm
content: Quote from: legacy on April 04, 2018, 09:10:06 pmWhen all the boss know is counting money and copying someone else's product using the cheapest possible build quality and wages, do you think he will want, or even have an inkling, to pay for those tools or software? None of my previous employers owned genuine tools (bar maybe a few ST-Link/V2 which are themselves cheap) or software (except Windows which comes with the OEM computers.) One of them even got an attorney's letter for being caught using pirated copy of PADS, and that colleague took quite a scare (although it was the boss that took the burn.) I even had to bring my own knowledge of Linux, GCC-based tools, and start using KiCad in professional setting, just so I won't drag my employer into even more legal trouble. So no. No boss will pay for the tools here. And whatever the customers paid little would dribble down to engineering.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 09:40:02 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 04, 2018, 09:10:26 pmAt least some of them have the option of buying tools at a reduced price with limited to no vendor support provided. Students and hobbyists are often looking for things in the same price bracket, while students will bring their familiarity into the industry, hobbyists can set a community background that less tech savvy bosses and HR's can see, as well as provide community level support often pro bono.From what I see STMicroelectronics did a good job at pandering the communities in China here with a large hobbyist group, a lot of bosses and HR's know their products as a more modern upgrade from 8051 (which is taught in schools but they understand being ancient.)

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 09:43:37 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 04, 2018, 09:10:26 pmWe know (at least here) that pros pay for their private courses and tools. Sometimes they pay with their money, sometimes their boss that pays for them, but the point is the quality of the equipment, as well as the quality of the teaching, as well as the investment you do, as well as the investment the producer does by giving you a discount. It's an ecosystem that makes money to go in turn, making serious people to grow.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 09:44:58 pm
content: Quote from: technix on April 04, 2018, 09:34:18 pmdude, find a job. A serious job.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 10:00:15 pm
content: Quote from: legacy on April 04, 2018, 09:44:58 pmThere is few such jobs here. The bar of the society has been set so low by a few well-known market leaders. I have to either get myself into those legally grey (at best) companies, or left hanging high and dry in this profession here in my city. There is a reason why I am seriously seeking moving away from engineering at all into education, just because this line of business is getting way too low.I actually came to IoT and EE from mobile game development. That is a market so filled with copying, copyright infringement and dirty marketing strategies here in China I kind of had to flee. Having seen how low the business side of the things can get I was scared really. The one boss of mine that treated IP right, was the one that is forced to study laws seriously in a prison, and started the company I interned in after he was released.

author: lem_ix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 10:32:13 pm
content: Quote from: technix on April 04, 2018, 10:00:15 pmBusiness practices are sadly similar here. Engineer wages are low and the price of tools is too large in comparison. Even very large companies don't really invest in such stuff, instead they just throw more engineers at the problem. Then again some IC vendors realized that cheap dev tools will get them though the door, stick with those.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 11:01:43 pm
content: Quote from: lem_ix on April 04, 2018, 10:32:13 pmAt least your bosses are paying for new hires to throw at the problem. Here in China companies have this practice allegedly started by Alibaba to throw engineers at the problem without paying a dime for it: peer pressure the engineers into working 72 hours a week without any compensation, and attempt to make use of company rules to write those additional hours off as unpaid “volunteering”.In Chinese laws the standard working week have 40 working hours, and the absolute maximum allowed is 76 under the condition that the extra hours are paid or compensated.Manufacturing workers, like the ones in Foxconn, have 72 even 84 hour working weeks, but they are paid for all the additional hours they worked, so at most it is a maximum work hour violation which is relatively minor offense at worst, and other workers will actually despise the whistleblower for cutting their working hours, thus their paychecks. As of those engineers, their long hours are not compensated whatsoever, making this a major offense; while the union is nonexistent at best, all the working hour records are destroyed or nonexistent, and the government officials are more likely than not corrupt, stifling any whistleblowing.

author: lem_ix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 11:19:06 pm
content: That's terrible :S honestly I'd try to move. Even here we have it a lot better and we're way below EU norms.