Genuine question- is Please and Thankyou a cultural thing on the EEVBlog forum ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 01:59:08 pm
content: I have a question that may not be truly technical but it does effect my input to this technical forum so I think it valid.I have been a member of the this forum for many years and have offered help to other forum members, where able. I am most active in the Thermal Imaging sub forum these days. Over those years of providing help I have experienced one niggle that still bugs me.... Please and Thankyou .........I am British and was brought up to say “Please” when I needed help and “Thankyou” when I received that help. I have lost count of the number of times that a forum member has asked a technical question, I have provided the answer, and there has been no “Thankyou” or, in some cases, the person just “Ghosted” me. Sadly this is most prevalent amongst newbies to the forum and Zero Posters contacting me via PM for help, software, manuals etc.I am at the point now where I seriously consider not helping Zero Posters who PM me. No one likes to feel ‘used’ and I am not the human form of Google or the Wayback Machine !My father said that in this modern world it may be that people treat those with knowledge just like Google..... that is to say..... ask a question, get the answer, and move on without further comment. If that is true, it is a very sad state of affairs and it makes the person providing the help feel less inclined to help others in the future. In my upbringing “Please” and “Thankyou” were very important words that really mean something but I am British and things may be culturally different in other countries. I remember seeing an interview with a chap on TV where he was surprised that Brits say Please and Thankyou as in his culture such is not needed or expected. In Russia I would walk into a shop, and would be totally ignored until I said “ pozhaluysta” (Please) and it was expected that I say “ Spasibo” (Thank you) when I had been helped. You learnt those words quickly when you went shopping in Moscow.So to the topic of this Post...... Am I being unfair and too judgemental of other forum members who do not say “Please” or, more importantly, “Thank you”. I know we should not expect payment for helping others but common courtesy seems a fair response when someone helps you. I often spend much time helping a person and it does hurt/annoy when they just Ghost you without even a Thank you for your effortsIf it is indeed a cultural thing, then fair enough, at least I will know that fact and not feel so used and abusedTo offset this possibly negative post, I can report that I have been thanked many times for the help that I have provided and, in some cases, companies have even sent me Amazon vouchers ! Not expected or requested, but such a nice surprise when it happens as you know the person valued your help enough to send a giftFraser

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 02:13:11 pm
content: Saying thanks isn’t payment, it’s just basic politeness.I too am experiencing it. Get badgered for some technical detail and once you answer it there is nothing but silence.Getting a ‘hey it worked, cheers!’ Would certainly be nice.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 02:25:33 pm
content: Let me add that just saying "Thank you" is sufficient for me. I do not particularly like the idea of keeping score with a "Like/Thank you" button, but agree that using such buttons can potentially reduce clutter. Perhaps, keep the buttons, but don't keep the score?The downside of keeping score is that one sees competition for "likes." That seems to lead to silliness and worse.

author: iainwhite
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 02:44:43 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on March 20, 2021, 01:59:08 pmI do not think you are being unreasonable at all.I think basic politeness is fundamental to any discussion.I would add that it is nice to see a question posed on a forum where it is clear that the poster has done a little basic research before asking the question.Many questions I see posted on the forum could be answered by pasting the question into a Google search.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 02:55:25 pm
content: I'm afraid it's a sign of the times and rampant elsewhere. I hang out in ResearchGate to provide advice in my area of expertise. A similar question came up:https://www.researchgate.net/post/People_asking_questions_here_on_researchgate_often_do_not_feed_back_to_answers_at_all2My reply:QuoteTo which someone replied (and I'd agree with):QuoteIf I'm the questioner, I make sure I give thanks/feedback.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 02:58:20 pm
content: When I get PMs asking for help, outside some particular circumstances*, I always ask the sender to move the conversation to the forum, where others can benefit or improve the answer.And yes, I've noticed the sometimes missing goodwill to ask questions in a polite way and thank afterwards (button or words), especially from newcomers.My hypothesis is not that newcomers are less polite in general, but that less polite persons register just to get an answer, not to became a member of a community.That said I'm seeing some kids on my lawn, and I'm also a bit behind my cloud yelling quota for today.* E.g. I was asked a couple of times to keep the information private, not a real NDA but close, on a personal trust base.

author: tunk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 03:25:27 pm
content: I'm not sure if please and thank you is necessary.I would think the general tone, basic research and providingrelevant info in the original question is more important.And in many cases, feedback is important; if other peopleexperience the same problem, they can get an idea if someadvice was good.(And don't forget that for non-native English speakers (like me),it's not always easy to find the best expressions and terminology.)

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 04:48:26 pm
content: It's nice to get a thank you.I told my brother once...He was talking about how he'll let over people in traffic or on the highway and they won't thank him. I said that he should stop the other car and ask the person "If I let you over, will you thank me?"It's definitely nice to get a thank you. Absolutely. And being raised that way will heavily influence how you react. But, I think ultimately, you have to ask yourself what kind of society do you want to live in? Do you want to live in one where people help each other?...Or one where we're all looking for something in return?Being helpful does reap rewards, even if you don't get the thanks. And...You can always thank yourself. Nothing wrong with that. You helped someone...Good job! And if you feel that you're overextending yourself...Certainly up to you to pull back a bit.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 05:17:12 pm
content: MikeK,Wise wordsMy issue was with the feeling of being taken for granted with no appreciation of my efforts.As my wise wife tells me..... I have plenty of chores and jobs in my home life so why do I spend my time sorting out other peoples problems on this Forum. As you suggest, maybe my upbringing and attitude to helping others is the issue so it is likely best if I just stick to helping friends and spending my finite spare time sorting out more in my home life.I am against the “Knowledge is Power” attitude of some but I see no reason to provide that knowledge if the recipient considers me no different to Google. I am sentient and do have feelings.Fraser

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 06:32:52 pm
content: I agree that "please" and "thank you" are very useful; warmly recommended social lubricant or somesuch: with them, things just seem to work better.I personally much prefer a followup report rather than a "thank you", though. A summary of what the OP did, whether the problem was solved, or ended up being sidestepped, and so on. Especially if the thread is then crawlable/possible to find via a web search, as then the overview is there to let others know how it went afterwards; kinda like listening to other people discuss how they solved a problem similar to one you happen to have right now. Useful, much better than a "book answer".The way I write my answers is to target more than just the exact problem at hand, for a number of reasons.One reason is that nobody ever describes their problem perfectly, so assuming the target is only approximately located makes for an easier discussion.The other, the bigger one, is that it is usually not worthwhile to answer an obscure question by someone you don't know,unless others can benefit from the question and answer as well.Whenever I've helped people over email, I've always asked for the same thing: that someday, they pass the help on, and help someone else in turn. (You know,pay it forwardstyle.)I do these, so that the original asker is just a participant in producing a solution to that particular class of problems that will be available later on, for everybody; and not in control of whether I feel my help was successful or not.It's like helping build a community hall or something, emotion-wise. The act ofbuildingsomething becomes the cause for the dopamine hit.The downside is that you may get a similar affliction as I have, and see how much lasting damage people who know better but let their misunderstandings remain because they find it distasteful to admit being wrong ("hey, it's just one queastion, relax, who cares, it's not that bad").(That is as annoying as trying to help someone who is being actively misled by a troller who tells the original asker to not listen to anybody else, and is leading them towards failure, often a delayed failure which will be a serious setback to the asker. Frustrating, like seeing too much sand being mixed in concrete, and a "contractor" assuring everyone it's okay because they have twenty years of experience, and you yourself are just a hobbyist but have happened to see how exactly that kind of mix leads to crumbling concrete, a real hazard, and a building that will be condemned. The waste of resources, the garbage being spewed out...)

author: unixb0y
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 06:35:50 pm
content: My 2 cents: I was raised in Germany and also learned to always say thanks when someone helped you. I don't think we always say "please" when asking a question, like "do you know how to do X?" or "do you have a recommedation or opinion on product Y?" I wouldn't actually know how to put a "please" in there.I also agree that on most forums "thank you" replies (if they add nothing new) are discouraged to prevent clutter, so that's why there are the thanks buttons. I personally always want to thank and most of the times still do, but do make sure to add some additional feedback or info that makes my post more meaningful also to others reading the thread in the future, like stuff that didn't work or so.In PMs, not thanking would be very rude and "ghosting" (just taking the advice / help and neither replying nor clicking the thanks button) is also super rude imho.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 06:38:09 pm
content: There is another extreme though, in real life, when people thank you 3 or 5 or more times on a same occasion. I absolutely hate this and try to get away from them as soon as possible to escape the endless "thank you again" diarrhea. This is even more annoying than not receiving one at all.In regards to forums, i think posting explicit thanks messages is totally fine in individual conversations over PM. In regular topics that would clutter the information flow. Topics are not one-to-one communications. I think "thank you" button is the right solution for it.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 07:13:39 pm
content: I find Brits more well mannered and educated in etiquette, whereas in North America we are just kurt and Canadians usually blunt. We could care less or even notice an Essex verses Sussex accent, or the Queen's english.One forum forbids single "thank you" posts, I think to keep things strictly business. The button here seems to cover it fine.Something important to mention though, I notice women in business express thanks and gratitude amongst themselves all the time.Men I've worked with don't bother. It's a 'grunt' and on with the next issue. We don't need or say thanks as much in comparison.I've learned if I give thanks or express gratitude, it makes a huge difference in relationships, at a business level and personal level. Just try it some day, it's neat experiment.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 07:18:21 pm
content: So many people takes community help on internet forums for a granted. Just live with that. You can't fix whole world of internet anyway. If you can't stand ungrateful - do not help them

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 08:02:46 pm
content: To some degree the basic lack of manners is a reflection of todays societies and modern parenting.Now as a grandad I see it more and more around us where we insisted on our 3 using the 3 magic words of please and thank you and provided everyday examples to them by insisting their friends added the magic words into requests for anything.Can I have a biscuit ? ….. not without a magic word ! Hand biscuit over ...... excuse me but what do you say ?Kiddies from a young age twigged pretty quickly what was etiquette when they came to visit as do grandchildren that should never be underestimated for how sharp they can be.At 3 our granddaughter in Perth twigged she could wind up her Perth based grandad just calling him grandad when it had zero effect on me whereas he had to be called poppa !Like others I get PM's from zero posters that always get pointed back to the forum so to add to the knowledgebase so we all can benefit.When we are grateful for anything there is no shame in showing it.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 09:18:28 pm
content: Personally I don't really care, because I've worked with a variety of different cultures and in some of them the closest (non-English) equivalent to "please" has a negative connotation of begging. There are probably quite a few threads where my answer is the last post. I don't bother keeping track of them.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 10:12:31 pm
content: To clarify one part of my question....I am often contacted by people via PM asking for specialist help or information regarding X-Ray equipment, Thermal Imaging or other topics that I have been involved with on this forum. I am fortunate to have a large archive of information, manuals and software for many pieces of specialist equipment that I have played with over the years. Much of that information was obtained through either a lot of effort searching the Internet or from Manufacturers I contacted. Some information and software cannot be shared by me due to NDA's and just my promise to the provider to not share it.Historically, when I have been approached via PM with a person asking me to share my knowledge, information and/or software, I have helped that person. Some of the information and software has had a very real cost to me so I could decline to share it, but I have not. When I share that sort of hard to source information, I do so out of an act of friendship and community spirit. To be Ghosted by the person as soon as they got what they were after feels anti-social to meI think I come from another era (born in the late 1960's) where people were genuinely pleased to receive help and said so with a Thank you. That was just good manners but these were often face to face encounters. I feel that in some cases, the use of computer communications that separates people has lead to the current situation where people ask for information or help, receive it and then walk away. If you convert that to a face to face situation it would not play out well ! You ask someone for a light for your cigarette and then turn you back on them without even a nod of appreciation...... not considered polite in my world.An interesting comment above that I considered a possibility is the 'submissive' or 'begging' association with the English word "Please". In the UK, this is just courtesy and good manners but I can see that in some cultures people may consider it a submissive stance that their personal pride makes undesirable. I do not think the same applies to "Thank You" unless the person feels that they have a right to the helpers time for some reason, like they are being paid to help. Personally I say "Thank you" when someone does something for me, paid or not. It was just the way I was brought up in Britain and our traditions come through in our language. I write as I speak and I hope that I am polite in both mediums.There is good advice that if something annoys or somehow irritates you, remove it from your life if practical to do so. Life is too short for such things. I do not need to help others with their problems in order to feed my Ego, be happy or feel fulfilled so can effectively close the door on requests for help where appropriate. My friends are assured of my continued supportThank you to those who have commented in this thread. I have learnt more about the topic and, if I am honest, I am saddened by what I have discovered. I belong in a different era where helping people is concerned.Fraser

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 12:03:30 am
content: But then, when we started using this, one of the first thing they showed us was the Netiqette. Nowadays babies watch YouTube before they learn how to speak at all. Just look at the Youtube comments of any video. 50% of them will be "Lulz: Something that was just said in the video", the other 50% memes. This is quite civilized compared to that.And there are a lot of cultures here. And that shouldn't be an excuse. If I can learn to hold my business card with two hands when exchanging, bowing my head. Then they can learn good manners.About saying "please" explicitly: it can be avoided by using "could you" or "would you". But I can tell you that is some advanced English that is hard to master for some people. Just go into a Dutch bar, and the waiter will ask you politely for your order: "What do you want?"

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 12:53:04 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on March 21, 2021, 12:03:30 amEither it's my age (born mid-60s) or country I grew up in (UK), but "Would you get me some water?" sounds demanding. The additional "please" makes a lot of difference to my ears.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 01:57:57 am
content: There are always the alternative"I'm sorry to bother you...""I wonder if you are able to...""Could I perhaps trouble you to..."The key is that you are not entitled to another person's time or their help.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 02:52:37 am
content: I rarely use the word "please", and rarely notice or care if someone else does. It's a formality I may use among family and close friends but not typically in day to date conversation and even more rarely in forum posts. When someone says it multiple times it just gets annoying, like a little kid who thinks if they say please enough times they'll get what they want. IMO it's mostly just overhead that does not contribute to the exchange of information. I've never claimed to be particularly socially adept though. As for thanks, the thanks button works nicely.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 03:21:12 am
content: Living in Texas now and having visited and experienced other places around the world, I can tell here the "please", "thank you", "sir/ma'am" are much more proeminent across generations. I also come from parents that were actively interested in instilling good manners and kindness to others regardless of any other qualifiers, so I can empathize with your post, Fraser.The online experience from my point of view is the same as yours, to a point where I reduced the amount of effort I put in a reply by replacing conjectures (to cover all possibilities) with several questions instead, so I can both get additional information about the issueandsense the engagement on the other side of the connection (this was also the subject of an interaction between modemhead and I many years ago). More often than not, the replies are quickly lost in the ether.So yes, the "please" and "thank you" seem to be in rare availability.Regarding the construct to use "would", I tend to soften a request with "would you mind". I had to learn this and many other soft sentences "on the job", given that many communications were to request any sort of help or information in the English language (not my native one), so politeness took me to great lengths.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 03:48:18 am
content: Just the upbringing is all.I turned off the PM about six months ago as I saw no reason for it.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 04:10:42 am
content: Interesting question. It forced me to think about how I have responded and how I feel about responses on this forum.I was raised as have many others to say please and thank you (along with many other social lubricants). And use them to this day in many social situations. But used them far less in the work environment before I retired. Please was reserved for unusual requests, and thank you for above typical responses. So it would be normal to just say send me the test results and simply acknowledge their receipt. But I would preface a request that required a deep search of the files or setting up an unusual device or the like with a please, and if a response was forthcoming a thank you and/or other indications of gratitude would follow.My responses on this forum have been "work like". And my feelings about others responses to me have had the same general feel. I have not felt slighted, but do feel gratified by the "thank you"s received.I am still processing whether I am behaving appropriately or not. I suspect between the vast range of cultural backgrounds on this forum combined with the equally large range of native tongues it is appropriate for all of us to be very generous in assessing the behavior of others.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 04:45:31 am
content: Quote from: Bud on March 20, 2021, 06:38:09 pmThanks Bud. I think you've pretty well nailed it as far as I feel about it also.The thank-you button has a perhaps dominant use as "I agree with this". Unfortunately not always wisely. Which only diminishes its value for its intended purpose.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 10:44:37 am
content: It has occurred to me, after considering the helpful responses to my question, that I may simply be unfamiliar with on-line technical forums and how they work these days. I am from a pre-Internet generation and so only joined limited numbers of forums, most being on Yahoo Groups and, of course, the EEVBlog forumI am a social ‘animal’ and used to having conversations with people. Hence why I write as I would speak. This can make for long posts thoughIt occurs to me that technical forums can be hybrids in terms of social interaction. Some areas of forums have more social interaction than others and it would appear that there is a demand for communications and data efficiency in some forum areas that preclude social ‘niceties’. In those areas it is all about the efficiency with which information can be exchanged and they are almost a ‘cold’ environment where “Please” and “Thankyou” are just a waste of ASCII characters that reduce the ‘Signal to Noise Ratio’ of the thread. That is a very foreign environment for me as a social animal used to having friendly conversations with interlocutors. If my career is anything to go by, I was a very effective communicator who got the desired results and made many good friends in my work.So, this thread has been both interesting and informative. Yes I am saddened at the desire for ‘cold’ sharing of knowledge in the most efficient, highest S/N ratio manner, but now I understand that attitude, I can decide how much, or little, of myself I want to give to a forumScience and technical matters can be a naturally terse environment so no wonder these forums reflect this.A previous poster used the term ‘social lubrication’ and I guess that is what pleasantries are. They make the other party feel happy and that is good. I shall continue to be cordial in my communications on this forum as that is ‘just me’.Fraser

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 11:32:09 am
content: Quote from: Fraser on March 21, 2021, 10:44:37 amThings can and do get complicated (internet). Imagine if EEVblog/Dave, makes a really good video, and it has 1,000,000 views/viewers, who all happen to really, really like it. The youtube comments section, would look a right mess, if it was filled with the text "Great Video, Many Thanks a million times !!!!!", via a million different users. It would mean that to find a real comment/question on there, would mean reading through a million "Thanks you's", and could take an impractically long period of time to read through all those comments.I.e. In such circumstances, it is probably best to not just say "Thank you".But in a completely custom (one off) forum thread, asking a potentially difficult question, and needing a custom, non-standard, complicated answer. With just one or a few replies. It makes much more sense for the OP to thank people who have responded, and maybe further explain what the problem really was.Also, I think the $64,000,000 question, is ?How long/difficult was it for the person/people who reply, to generate the answer. Sometimes it takes less than 10 seconds, but other times it can take more than 30 minutes.Forums (internet), spans a huge range of countries, cultures, races, education background, rich/poor, old/young, impatient/patient, hobbyist/professional, etc etc. So I suppose it should not be too surprising, to find a big disparity between those who are polite (and potentially thank people), and those who are not.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 11:51:14 am
content: Quote from: Fraser on March 21, 2021, 10:44:37 amSigning your post definitely signals to me that you are treating the forum differently than what it is.On the other hand, this isn't reddit.I think, if one has nothing else to say, just a thank you, then there is a perfectly usable button on it.Unless they opened the thread, because they should signal others that the issue is solved. I think OPs should have the option to close threads if their question is answered, in questions related topics.It infuriates me when I spend 10 minutes looking up something typing an answer, that will be never be read. It's a waste of time.But if someone invested their time into answering a question, especially in PMs they should thank them.And I stopped answering trivial or very easy questions. There are thousands of people on this forum, some of these questions eventually gets 10 perfectly good answers from hobbyists or youngsters. Leave them a little success.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 12:01:56 pm
content: There's the thanks button, but I always prefer it if someone bothers to write personalised feedback to a post, rather than just clicking it.The thanks button is better than nothing, but it's a little over used. There's also someone who seems to use it to troll, by making silly posts, then thanking the responses, even if they're calling him an idiot. Some people also like to collect thanked posts, so it also gives people an incentive to reply to his dumb posts, because they know they'll collect more.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 12:13:41 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on March 21, 2021, 12:01:56 pmI don't think the "Thank you" button, in practice, is just used to mean "Thanks". It seems to be able to have other uses as well (opinions can vary).Such as "I Agree" with your post/opinion, and 'thanks' for pointing it out.E.g. You can't use that small signal 100mA transistor, to control that 10 Amp output.The few or more 'thanks' such a post, MIGHT collect, especially from more experienced forum users. Helps to strengthen the correctness of that post, and hopefully make the beginner more likely to understand and agree with it. Rather than pollute the thread with lots of, +1's and/or, like posts, which perhaps make more clutter, rather than make the thread clearer and easier to understand.Also, it is a quick way of accepting someones reply to one of your posts.E.g. 1 + 1 = 7"Another poster" .. You meant "1 + 1 = 2" ?So thanking that post, means you agree you made a mistake, and thanks them for pointing it out, without disrupting the threads flow too much.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 12:20:14 pm
content: In my case it is simply that I go out of my way to help people and often provide technical information that they cannot get anywhere else and then I do not even get an indication that they appreciated my gesture. I can become less friendly and keep all the ‘unobtainium’ information to myself but that appears mean spirited. If helping someone brings me sadness by their lack of any appreciation for my efforts, that may be the way to go.I get an awful lot of requests for help with thermal imaging technology and normally help where legal to do so. I have lost count of how many times I have spent HOURS researching something, delivering the required information and getting ZERO responseThat kind of ‘entitled’ attitude rubs me up the wrong way but then it is my fault for spending the time helping a stranger in the first place.... that is what my wife says anyway !(She is much smarter than me)Someone recently told me that we now live in a “Me Me Me” world of selfishness and some people display an unfortunate attitude that they are ‘entitled’ to help from others. To me that sadly appears similar to a Country ‘Gentleman’ demanding Tiffin at 3pm from his ButlerWell I have news for people like that, I do not play that game and I am not your ‘Servant’ so find your own information through hard work, just as did !This thread has honestly helped me change my attitude towards this forum in a positive way. I will spend more time enjoying my hobby and far less time researching questions from members with no ‘track record’ of being a contributor to this community. I recall the term “Seeders and Leechers” from Torrent days and I have no intention of becoming a banquet for leechesAnyway I have what I asked for and will continue to contribute to this most excellent of forums, but on my termsI tend to sign my posts as Fraser as it is my name and my friendly ‘face’.I no longer need to sit behind a nom de plume.FraserIn case anyone wonders what Tiffin is in terms of my usage....https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiffin

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 12:38:54 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on March 21, 2021, 12:20:14 pmIt is not necessarily that simple, because I have also asked the same question (this threads topic), of myself, and come up with what appears to be a significantly different answer. Because in some cases, spending time answering some of the questions on this forum, even if it needs time to research and put together, can actually help (improve) oneself.E.g. Let's say the question was about LDRs (light dependent resistors), and it was so long since I last used them (partly because if you know what you are doing phototransistors/diodes can be better, and not involve getting more toxic materials in wider circulation, i.e. Cadmium). Spending time answering a beginners question involving LDRs, can mean me refreshing my knowledge of them, any formulas involved/needed, and other stuff about them, that is becoming 'rusty' over time.I.e. Even if they never respond to the thread, no thanks etc. At least I've had the motivation to refresh my knowledge of them, think about them again, and potentially enjoy spending a bit of time, reading up on them again.A good answer, might even be useful (because of Google etc), to someone in the future.E.g. It is extremely useful to me, that (hypothetical made up scenario), I can have my or a computer fail on me. Type into google, hard disk WD 123456789 Model BC, Winglows10 error "987654.21". A forum thread from 12 years ago, had someone have exactly the same problem, who says "You just need to change the CR2032" battery, as it fails the bios forgets the HD settings on older computers (hypothetically speaking). Then 2 minutes later, my computer is fixed, problem solved!

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 01:10:22 pm
content: MK14,I totally agree with your comments but I have been on this forum a long time and have noticed a change over the years. I still research topics for friends and also for my own curiosity. I study books and scientific papers to improve my knowledge of various topics. For example I have bought many books on thermography and thermal camera design and even bought an Amiga computer and its service documents to teach myself fault finding on a MC68K computer platform ! That was a bit excessive I admit but it helped me in reverse engineering and repairing MC68340 based FLIR PM series thermal cameras. I use the knowledge I gain to help others just as some good friends have helped me in the past. There is the question of who’s life you are living though. I am in my 50’s now and my wife reminds me that this is not a rehearsal so when I spend hours and even days helping other people, am I doing it for them or myself ? I have so much work on the to-do list at home and yet I ‘spend’ my time solving other people’s problems or providing them with information that takes hours to track down in my less than perfectly indexed 4TB archive ! Why is that archive not correctly indexed ? Because I did not spend the time doing so as I was distracted by other demands upon my time. I now realise that when someone asks a question either on the forum, or via PM, I should decide whether answering such fits in with my days priorities. It sounds so simple but I have always been someone who was happy (even eager!) to help others. A character flaw if not managed carefully as my poor long suffering wife knows.I have just been vaccinated against COVID-19 and have spent the last year in effective social isolation so the forum has been an interesting distraction but I think it time I decided what is most important to my family going forwards. None of us know how long we have and I really do not think anyone will miss a few posts on this forum, or any other for that matter, from me. I am not that important in the big scheme of things. I will engage in topics that interest me or are simple answers but the equipment teardowns and long posts will likely end as they take too much time out of my day.I currently have a request via PM to provide a scan of an Adret 740A service manual. That manual is buried under many boxes in my garage but I have said I will find it and photograph the pages. I will do so as I have already said I will. Going forwards, that hour or two plus physical exertion may not be made available for such requests though.Fraser

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 01:28:03 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on March 21, 2021, 01:10:22 pmI agree with you!I suspect, there is some kind of psychological process going on, at least in my case. Whereby, answering some (unknown to me, usually) persons question(s), on this/a forum. Somehow is achieving something (on the one hand it IS achieving something, but not necessarily for oneself/family/friends and our own ToDo lists, just as you described/said above).INSTEAD of actually doing what you should have been doing.To put it in other terms (that some other people used, in describing stuff, a bit like this, to me).The forum concept, question(s), posts, psychology, etc etc.Is somehow "PUSHING MY BUTTONS", to get me into frantic activity.E.g. This classic meme/picture:

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 01:51:44 pm
content: MK14,I think you hit the nail on the headThat Meme is sooooo typical of me except it is normally “something is wrong or faulty on the forum” in my case ! When you examine that behaviour in the cold light of day, it is illogical. Why can an answer not wait until the next day ?Anyway, this has been a far more insightful thread than I ever imagined it would be and I thank all those who provided input as it has genuinely helped me. I will cease the Soul Searching posts here as we will likely have nauseated readers ‘throwing up’ soonFraser

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 02:46:44 pm
content: This reminds me (the thread), of an eye opening youtube video. Where an amazing guy, who builds and plays amazing musical marble machines, which he designs and builds himself. Where he carefully explains how to get himself motivated/focused and NOT distracted by forums and things. So he can concentrate on very long term project builds.My apologies, it is a rather long video, > 20 minutes. A quick summary is:The theory goes that the brain produces dopamine, giving one's brain apparent reward(s), just for checking in on the forums (in his case whatsapp and a Chess webserver), rather than concentrating and doing what we all SHOULD be doing.Example of one of his amazing musical marble machines:(off-topic, but it shows what amazing things can be achieved, if he/we don't let the internet distract us too much)

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 05:24:54 pm
content: A simple acknowledgement of the efforts of others is a must even if it wasn't the best or correct advice.Failing to define a problem coherently and in context seems to me to be very rude to the reader. There's no excuse for it and there is far too much of it!Comment is just comment and doesn't necessarily need a response. Q&A should be treated as person to person or person to group dialogue.The lack of properly framed questions and the lack of acknowledgement to responses reveals is a disturbing level of entitlement among some users of this forum.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 05:57:49 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on March 21, 2021, 10:44:37 amI did. The point being, lubrication is necessary for efficient, robust operation.I personally do need to have a wider reach than just one throwaway question by a single person online, because solving a single instance (or with unreasonable restrictions because of a one-off situation) just isn't worth it to me.In the real world things are different, because of the large amount of nonverbal information conveyed – just seeing the tightness and stress relax in the other person when a particularly nasty problem is efficiently solved, has a bigger effort on myself than any "thank you", because it occurs on a lower level: it has more emotional impact.I do not believe it is soul-searching to considerwhyone helps others, orhowit best suits oneself. There are many reasons and many different ways, and being self-aware rather than just do things because it is customary to do them, is kind of necessary to be considered a sapient being, in my opinion.For that, I applaud your consideration and effort. And also for bringing up this topic.Quote from: Fraser on March 21, 2021, 10:44:37 amAgreed. I believe a big factor is the fact that some/many (I have no statistics, only anecdotal evidence on this) technically oriented people do not perceive social interactions like most do, and simply do not have the facilities to do social interaction efficiently in the customary way; they lack the instincts on how to use the "niceties" that make interaction easier.I know, because I am one of those people. I've had tolearnsocial interaction, like others learn maths or a foreign language. Being bad at it in some situations but not others is not intentional, it's just that it's an ongoing learning process that requires practice. And feedback.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2021, 06:57:01 pm
content: Quote from: Terry Bites on March 21, 2021, 05:24:54 pmWhat I sometimes (or even often), see on this forum. Is these various 'new", 1 or 2 post, thread-starters. Who (in some/many cases) never return to this forum again, ever. At least NOT as that forum user name.But, I suspect (in some cases), it is the same person, returning again and again. Never wanting to create a user with anything other than a tiny total post count.Where it can get especially annoying (at least to me), is where they repeatedly ask the same question, again, again and again. Possibly slightly changing it, but it is fairly obvious (but NOT 100% certain), they are really the same individual.When (essentially) the same question, is continually asked (under different forum user IDs), there seems to be a pattern. Whereby they want a particular 'answer', which confirms their (usually) mistaken beliefs. When someone gives the (correct) but different answer to what they want to hear. they just disappear (as that user). Then a week later (highly approximate), they return with the same basic question.I don't want to point the finger of blame at anyone, but here is a typical example (with some details made up for dramatic effect):They want someone to supply a schematic, for a 75 Volt, 60 Amp, Bench power supply, which MUST BE LINEAR, linear ONLY!. As they begin to get replies, they let slip, they will only accept answers with a maximum of one output transistor, which must be a 2N3055 they have, and the heatsink must be small, because they don't like the look of big heatsinks.Eventually, after many new users, and forum replies. They let slip they already have the transformer, and WON'T get a different one (as it costs money). Which turns out to be totally unsuitable for the task in hand, a dangerous microwave one at that. Etc etc.I accept I am exaggerating, but not really by a huge amount. Some of the threads seem way too dangerous for beginners and/or way too technically complicated and/or their expectations are completely unrealistic.EDIT: On reflection as regards my reply. Maybe I'm being a bit unfair. When you are a beginner, unrealistic expectations of what you can achieve, what is potentially highly dangerous and what practical limits there are, is going to be difficult for beginners to comprehend. So I am being a bit or more, unfair here.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2021, 02:53:35 am
content: Went out of my way to help this person. Never heard if they even received the parts I took the time to pull and ship to them.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/uei-393-broken-jacks/msg794955/#msg794955

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2021, 04:01:42 am
content: For Neganur,'s response: Reminded me, in reverse situation: I had rescued a feral cat family (5 kitten + mom), but needed help with supplies / food / kitty literbeing unemployed EE at the time 1996 recession ish.The humane society lady complained about me, mercylessly: I hadn't thought to thank her later.Just thought I, being a HERO was enough: I simply did not have a 'THANK YOU' follow-up on my radar screen.Maybe, you could prioritize your agenda, first, keeping your antenna up, for cases that aren't so reciprocatingas they come, and develop a sense for putting really bad offenders into the TODO box.When I venture into road / crosswalk I don't completely expect drivers to stop; many won't and are perfectly unaware... Some will never get it, but I just avoid bitterness. SF bay area has some ignorant drivers, but many just never got 'a talk...' on those two basics, thanking and using please. There's a lot of aggressive METH users, too, to occasionally encounter, a la BREAKING BAD... That crew is not likely to change, soon.Myself, sometimes along with thanks, or skipped thanks, I will substitute an honest complement like:"You guys are the BEST! Donut shop, etc"-RJHayward