PICkit 4 wossit do mister? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: hackinblack
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2018, 04:31:41 pm
content: I've finally found someone here in euro-land who actually has any of these in stock; for the past three months its been yes...er no..yes...er no.so i ordered some bits to get over the free shipping limit,content to wait while it arrived 'in stock' and was sent.it landed here on the day it was supposed to arrive 'in stock' at farnell/element 14one order was split in two,so the PK4 (sent from the UK, with an invoice for a PICKIT 3..!)arrived with a small tube of chips in a padded bag,and the rest of the order (sent from belgium;one long tube o'chips and two other dinky parts boxes) arrived in a HUGE cardbord box...now i am confused..but hey, its france, it's the national sport.First Impressions:-packaged in a small cardbord box of the standard 'microchip small tools' type; but this one is black instead of the traditional 'white n' blue' of yore.very 'designer' though gawd knows WHY? i personnally don't give a rats what the box looks like;it's there to stop the contents hitting the floor.the tool is alone in the box except for two silly stickers and possibly the cheapest crappiest USB cable i've seen boxed with ANY product outside of AliExpress tat. no leaflets, checklist slip, CDROM or other standard flotsam.The PICKit casing itself is around 1mm shorter than the PICKit3,but 3mm wider,and 2mm thicker. the programming header; now an 8-way one instead of a the old standard 6-way SIL; it still fits older boards designed for the earlier one,and the new header sticks out 1mm more from the casing compared to the old type(i had to file cutouts into some of my home-made boards to get the connector to reliably touch on the PICKit2/3.. i don't like pin headers sticking out like dogs wotsits!)the casing front is mostly covered by a stainless steel panel with the microchip 'shield' logo on it (yeah, very 'Power Rangers'...) which hides a tact switch for the programmer-to-go function which i haven't tried out yet. on the top corner are a couple of small holes to attatch a lanyard through, if you want to sling it round your neck and become a total dweeb.on the top side of the casing is the micro usb port and to its left a tiny hole;which presumably gives access to a reset button. (belt and braces or fingers crossed?) on the left side of the casing is the micro SD card slot,and a peek at the 'go faster' red PCB. the SD card can be used to store the firmware to be programmed into the target.in the latest MPLAB-x IPE application there is a checkbox to do this; as well as some new options for Atmel chips...hmm wonder when they will fully merge? i presume the IPE supports hardware like the ATMEl ice, maybe it's in the readme...on the back of the casing there are four tiny 'pips' for feet molded in;they actualy do seem to stop the thing sliding about as much as the older PK's do (i put mine in miniature neoprene mobile phone sleeves to prevent lemming-like excursions off the bench; which helped, slightly)Programming:-the PK4 managed to connect to PMPLAB x IPE after a couple of glitches; mainly, it seems, caused by the IDE not the hardware (my PICKit 3 is a cow to connect; often taking three attempts and/or restarts of the IPE to communicate; despite powering the target!) and WHEN will microchip make the software talk to the programmer BEFORE you load a hex file?!!! or turn on/off power to the board when you click the button instead of in three attempts and reconnections later...AAAh. and yes i DO know its a three volt part and i can't connect it to a truck battery...The PK4 loaded its new firmware without fuss and accepted the target ( a 18F45k20 on the PK3 debug express board) showing an orange 'provisional' support button next to the device type checkbox.despite this it communicated with the board without fuss reading, writing, verifying, or erasing almost instantly! i connected the PICkit3 at the same time without problems, and could swap between the two OK; BUT the IPE got its knickers in a twist when one or the other was unplugged, trying to use the wrong tool.i would advise plugging the tools you need to use in BEFORE starting the IDE.having both tools plugged in and running under the same IDE, i was able to speed test them back-to-back. the results where better than i expected.For a full erase,program, verify, or blank check for everything (eeprom and program memory)PICkit3 target 18F45K20 /debug 'running lights' demo all operations @ 6 seconds each.PICkit4 same target and code <1 Second.PICKit3 target 16F690 /' running lights' demo; all operations @7 seconds each.PICki4 same target and code @2 secondsThis seems to tally with the marketing blurb about the new 'Kit matching its speeed to the target precessor's; so the results will scale up when you are using the tool to the full on huge memory/faster PIC's.given the amount of time spent actually getting the PICKit 3 to function,the PK4 walks all over it in every respect...as long as the part is supported;and this is the rub; the wait is on for which existing parts are fully supported by both the PICKit4 and the new ICD4, that ARE supported by the PK2/3 and ICD3. the device support spreadsheet hidden in MPLAB-x's readme's, is like a walk through a mine-field,trying to match a part to a supporting programmerreminds me of John Lennon's sarcastic lyric 'i have to admit it's getting better...it couldn't get much worse'i hope this helps anyone who wants to know more about the PICki4, and how it is in real-world tests; apart from the rather sparse information online;and it gives me a chance to play with my new toy...

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2018, 04:41:01 pm
content: Quote from: hackinblack on May 23, 2018, 04:31:41 pmfinally? microchip direct and tme have had them for quite a while...i won't comment on the rest as none of the parts i care about are supportedi will get one as soon as this changes (next mplabx update? the following one?)

author: picandmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2018, 05:07:03 pm
content: Think if Microchip was at all concerned about its long suffering Pk3 users it would give a substantial trade in for our Pk3 against a new Pk4 ?! .... in our dreams

author: hackinblack
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2018, 05:36:49 pm
content: they did do a trade-in offer on the ICD2, that's how i go my now 'obsolete' ICD3..blub..but in doubt the PICkits ever will get one; as their price is too low to bother.if there is one; i've got three of the sods waiting...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2018, 05:50:35 pm
content: Wait a year before it’ll stop sucking. I actually find the clone pickkit3 devices more reliable than the genuine ones.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2018, 06:56:20 pm
content: I’ve had more than my fair share of PK4 experince over the past couple of months, it’s covered elsewhere in this forum.The only reason that I could find that the PK4 (and ICD4) were faster than the ICD3 or RealICE was because they use a more intelligent algorithm in the MPLAB X IDE, i.e. not programming acres of unused flash. Even then only works for some PICs where the device’s linker script placed certain objects miles away from your program code. You can adjust the linker script in those devices if you like to fix that.Much more nefarious is that the PK4 and ICD4 support nowhere near the entire PIC range, and they don’t support debug or emulation headers, or processor or emulation extension paks that I use fairly frequently.Perhaps the worse thing is that neither the PK4 nor ICD4 support debugging at full clock speed in PIC32MZ and possibly other devices.If you want support for the full PIC range, debug/PEP/EEP support, or debugging at full clock speed on PIC32MZ, currently you have to use either the PK3, ICD3 or RealICE.While I am sure device and feature support will improve, recent history at Microchip shows the pace to be glacial and quality to be substandard: in other words, I wouldn’t hold your breath.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 09:54:33 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on May 25, 2018, 06:56:20 pmwhat do you mean?

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 10:29:35 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on May 26, 2018, 09:54:33 amFor example, if you run your PIC32MZ at 200MHz, debugging such as stepping through code breaks. It’s covered in the Readme for PICkit4, and in practice it makes it unuseable if you need to run at full speed. The same applies to ICD4.I don’t know precisely whereabouts the speed limit is, or if it affects, say, the 70MIPS PIC24E/dsPIC33E devices, if indeed they’re supported at all.The experience is currently so hit and miss, both my ICD4 and PK4 are just left in the drawer while the ICD3, PK3 and RealICE get on with real work.

author: ggchab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2018, 02:42:30 pm
content: Microchip Web site shows a link to MPLAB X IDE 4.20 but once downloaded, this is still 4.15I hope it will be there soon with a better support of PICKIT 4

author: ggchab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 07:37:27 am
content: QuoteThis is fixed

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 07:38:57 am
content: Let's see:http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/mplabx-ide-v4.20-release-notes-00.zipI see more beta parts, but still beta.I see no support for dsPIC CK, which while is not released yet it's listed as avaiable at mouser from 1st Oct.The changelog of X is much more interesting, we may be going to see mplab 5 soon

author: ggchab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 07:54:13 am
content: I really like not having to wait for firmware upload each time I switch between the PIC18F and dsPIC33 I am using in my project

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 08:20:28 am
content: Quote from: ggchab on June 09, 2018, 07:54:13 amSo finally they managed to build a programmer that is again as useful as PICkit 2? Might be worth buying it, when part support gets better

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 08:24:21 am
content: The firmware switching pain on PICkit3 is easy to resolve by buying multiple shit Chinese clones. Bad solution but it works.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 08:19:29 pm
content: I have some good news, my initial indications are that PK4 and ICD4 now debugs at 200MHz speed on PIC32MZ EF with MPLAB 4.20. It also debugs at 140MHz Fosc speed on dsPIC33EP. The PIC32MZ EF used to fail miserably just on simple single stepping.Debug headers (PEP or EEP) continue to be completely broken in 4.20 with ICD4 and PK4.

author: hackinblack
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 06:25:16 pm
content: After waiting for the new IDE/IPE,The thing does NOT do what it says on the tin (assuming you can download the new MPLAB 4.20..the link on their home page marked v4.20 actually downloads v 4.15...)... Fail #1The PK4 still won't store code on its SD card... Fail#2programmer-to-go still doesn't work...Fail#3The programming speed on 12-series parts is about the same as PK3,for the 12F675 about the same as PK2!...Fail#4The readme for the IPE was done in October 2016,despite being released with the june 2018 version of the program; it doesn't even cover the new programs features (which have changed)...Fail#5and last but not least;The 12F series won't run after you have programmed them; as the stupid thing holds the PGC line low,even after it has programmed and verified...code will only run if you use pin6 for ANYTHING by disconnecting the PGC line to the chip...HUGE FAIL#5If you plan on using 16F88,10F322,any C parts,or 16F84A it doesn't cover them,and just about everything else is still 'YMMV' support.So far the only REAL improvement is the lack of buggering about swapping firmware like the PICKit3

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 09:26:20 pm
content: Quote from: hackinblack on June 11, 2018, 06:25:16 pmWell, I'm sure soon there will be more improvements. E.g. like with PICKit2 and PICKit3: PICKit2 doesn't support some newer chips, you need PICKit3 for itBut the hardware could do it with the open source program pic32prog as I verified.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 09:33:59 pm
content: I tend to agree with hackinblack, there are still so many shortcomings for the PK4 and ICD4 that they can't be relied upon as your only PIC debugger. I'd rather have a debugger that I know works (with enough prodding) than one I'm always second guessing, particularly out in the field.

author: igeorge
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 09:34:39 pm
content: PK4 it is a piece of garbage or paper weight.I got it today.Results:I installed with no problem and windows found it in no time.IPE5.0What is happen:Connected to a board with a Pic18F87K90, which is programed and running, PUT THE CPU ON RESET, with a blank LCD screen.On setting is not on Keep CPU on reset.I remove the programing cable and my cpu come back to life.I connect again the cable and my cpu die again.I reprogram the cpu with the same hex file, and after that, the LCD is on and everything works properly like it did with ICD3.If i remove the usb cable from pickit 4 everything dies again.Connecting the usb cable require a new reprogramming of the chip.Bottom line, i will return it to digikey and keep working with icd3.Any suggestions why it will put my cpu on reset ?THank you

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 05:37:47 am
content: yes, a bug in mplabx IPE that hasn't been fixed yet. you have to check the "release from reset" option again