engineeringly complex problem: how to put this bike wheelset on the plane?!? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 09:29:20 am
content: (aerocomfort road bike travel bag)(rear hub, with two protruing axles on both side)for a trip to Norway in the coldest months of the year, I want to bring my titanium road bike with me, but for the occasion I replace the wheels with a pair of wheels that cause no problems in snowy environments, full of ice and very cold.Instead of the rear derailleur which could hit the ice and still cause trouble, use a hub with internal gearing, and instead of the front rim brake, I will use a front drum brake hub.Both of these changes create a problem: if I could put the old wheels inside the bag thanks to their "Quick Release" mechanism, now I can't do that anymore because now the hubs have non-removable protruding parts.And the absurd thing is that it seems there are no wheel bags specifically designed to solve this problemwe have a serious problem here...when you reinvent the wheel, you also have to reinvent the wheel bag

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 09:53:07 am
content: I don't understand. Does it not just mean more assembly and disassembly?

author: Coordonnée_chromatique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 11:40:06 am
content: Hello, buy Two bags for two wheels and put one wheel in one bag.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 11:47:33 am
content: [ Specified attachment is not available ]"The quick-release mechanism consists of the lever/cam/skewer assembly, two small conical springs; and the adjusting nut (acorn nut), as shown in the photo below. The quick-release mechanism sometimes must be removed from the hub, for example when overhauling the hub."Seesheldonbrownexamples.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 12:02:57 pm
content: Quote from: Coordonnée_chromatique on June 12, 2024, 11:40:06 amEvoc Two Wheel bagThat's the first thing I thought. Easy, get a "two wheel bag" and use it for a single wheel.Easy? Sure... then I realized there are problemsin the economic range (<50 euro), many bags of this type actually have two independent pockets (like in the pic), separated by a non-removable divider that is sewnIn the higher price range (>100 euro) there are some bags (e.g. "Evoc Two Wheel bag") built in a totally different way, i.e. with a divider that cannot be removed, but can be "lyed" on one side, and this would allow the bag to be used to contain a hub with protruding axlesthe specifications of the rear hub indicate a footprint of 185mm, so you need a 28" wheel bag with a capacity of 200mm: again, many bags are not enough, but the "Evoc Two Wheel bag" is ok for thishowever, even in the best case scenario (for example using the "Evoc Two Wheel bag"), there are no protectors or padding to keep the wheel in place, because the protectors are designed for the release mechanism rapid, so when instead you have a wheel inside a bag that is simply large enough to contain the hub axle along its length, what happens is that the wheel is therefore free to move. And this is absolutely NOT good because each protruding part of that axle could pierce the bag and cause damage to the outside! You should probably cut some foam-discs, drill a hole in the center, and insert the discs on both the protruding parts, until you create a solid structure around the hub, to prevent it from moving in the bag

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 12:17:37 pm
content: I emailedbike24about the "Evoc Two Wheel Bag" they havehere:they confirmed the internal separator is not removablethey confirmed the internal separator can be lying on its side of the bag, allowing the bag to accept a larger wheelthey confirmed there is no "foam disc kit" to put on the protruding parts of the kind of hubs without quick releasesso if you proceed with this idea, you need to build those foam discsCode:####### | |####### | |####### | |####### | |####### | |####### | |###### / \###### | | protruing axle=======|hub|========###### | |###### \ /####### | |####### | |####### | |####### | |####### | |####### | |####### | |foam185mm|<---------------->|

author: Coordonnée_chromatique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 12:31:10 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on June 12, 2024, 12:17:37 pmIf you have no money, take a bin bag and a polyurethane foam bomb, put the wheel in the bag and empty the bomb on one side then cut the disk with a cutter.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 12:33:37 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on June 12, 2024, 12:17:37 pmA "build" process also known as "cutting a piece of foam with scissors or a knife". Sounds manageable.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 12:45:24 pm
content: Yeah, I know how to use scissors and a cutter, except that we are talking about 10-20mm thick foam sheets, therefore to be cut with hot wire.Just wondering if this idea is "safe" enough.Probably also build some polycarbonate cap circles, to be fitted on the end part of both axles, to make them less sharp, thereofore to reduce the chance of further damage.If there are no other ideas, let's proceed and see how it goes- - -Ayway, it's absurd for me that no one has already thought of it!How many people are there in the Scandinavian countries who have the exact same problem?How do they solve it? How to transport their bike wheels in the car? By plane?I would like to visit Denmark. They have a particular culture for cycling, and are well organized with public transport and with transporting bikes (with special hubs like mine) on planes.Bah...

author: mjs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 01:12:35 pm
content: I driver throughout the year in Finland with derailleur and disc brakes. I would not expect too much problem with rim brakes, if the pads are not of the hardest material. Coarse a bit wider tires, possibly with studs for clean/wet ice driving are great - fat bikes seem to travel nicely even in bad wet and thick snow.Constantly cold snow does not really stick, it's more the +/-0 degree wet snow conditions where you might have problems.My biggest problem has been cable lubrication getting sticky below -25°C.

author: dave j
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 01:48:11 pm
content: I was going to point out that Rohloff do quick release compatible internal gear hubs but then I saw the prices.

author: Coordonnée_chromatique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 01:48:29 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on June 12, 2024, 12:45:24 pmMy solutionTHEsolution used by professional packershttps://www.sealedair.com/products/protective-equipment/foam-systems/instapak-quickhttps://www.amazon.fr/Instapak-Quick-RT-sachets-mousse/dp/B00RVXBO2M

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 02:21:19 pm
content: it is not possible ? to make some mods on the frame by specialist to get fast release wheelsto make slots instead of holes and use the illustrated quick connect skew levers ? you only need one more hole for the curved washer / lock ----attached imagewhy going to complicate ways and loose time and $, a friend in our Canadian race teams, has made this mod on his 10k $ carbon frame .... even i have it on a basic mountain bike

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 02:32:45 pm
content: It is not possible to modify either the rear hub or the front hub in any way.In the rear (internal gear) hub the toggle and the gear selector run inside of the axle, meaning there is no space for a quick release skewer to occupy.The front hub, on the other hand, has a reaction arm to counteract the braking torque, so it requires two solid axle attachments to be attached to the fork, and this makes it unsuitable for conversion into a quick releaseI say this reluctantly, given that I spent 600 euros on the bike travel bag alone, and I will have to spend another 200 just on the two wheel bags, additionally paying an additional baggage fee to put not one but + three bags! in the hold.If it were possible to save money, I would be the first to do it!

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 02:41:09 pm
content: Quote from: Coordonnée_chromatique on June 12, 2024, 01:48:29 pmWell, this is the ideal solution for shipping something overseas and it works quite well if you are a seller, but I don't think it's THE solution in this case. It's about getting around the problem, and I don't think that's what they do in Denmark.And what do I do at this point? Do I ship the entire bike to my next residential address by packing it in two boxes { frame, wheels } and then using an air courier such as Fedex, DHL...?

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 03:02:13 pm
content: social engineering approachNow that the topic is up, maybe find this topic by Googling, notices the problem and creates a customized product!Perhaps a nice bag of the same size as the bike travel bag, but designed for a pair of wheels with the hubs I described.This not only would save space, but also time and money on the third bag fee.Isn't there a manager around?if so: I'm available for any testing

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 04:18:16 pm
content: assemble the bike how you wants it and cycle to norway,no bag required

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 08:05:50 pm
content: I don't know exactly which brand/model they use most in Scandinavian countries. I use components that are partlyCampagnolo, partlySturmey Archer, partly home-built. For example. the fork is handcrafted, in stainless steel (rare to see and very difficult to weld), specifically designed for drum brakes, with welded reaction arm locking clip.Anyway, there are other solutions, at least for the rear wheel assembled with an internal gear hub!Who? What? Well, ...Rohloff!With over 60 individuals employed,Rohloff HQis located in central Germany and makes advanced internal gear hubs, with extremely low maintenance and robust, with differentversionsavailable, including Quick Release axle CC versions thanks to the mech mechanism, for use on frames with vertical dropout slots, this version allows for a quick removal/installation of the wheel without the need for tools (two wrenches), and a wheel with this kind of hub is compatible with my bike travel bag!HoweverRohloff IGH is ~17x(1) more expensive than my SA IGHIt needs OLN=135 (wider frame), while on my titanium bike the OLN is 130 and I'm not willing to bend (cold) titanium!So ... although it would be the ideal solution, and I am also willing to assemble a new wheel (I do it), I cannot take it into considerationedit:(1) e.g. 1189.24 euro vs 65.20 euro

author: Coordonnée_chromatique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 06:23:00 am
content: Rohloff is a air tight oil bath gearbox, i don't know what can happen with the gradients of pressure of a plane trunk.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 09:05:40 am
content: Quote from: Coordonnée_chromatique on June 13, 2024, 06:23:00 amThe part of the plane intended for travelers is pressurised, just as the hold! And even the toilets are pressurised.And even considering a residual little gradient of pressure, I don't think it's a problem that the Rohloff engineers didn't take into account.There are professional cycling teams constantly loading and unloading their bikes from planes, even long flights, such as USA--Australia.In the endurance sector, some of these bicycles are equipped with Rohloff hubs with belt pulleys rather than chain crowns and sprockets, and not a single Rohloff ever exploded! If it had happened, with what it costs, they would have plastered every corner of the internet with this news.

author: Coordonnée_chromatique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 09:50:31 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on June 13, 2024, 09:05:40 amhttps://www.bikeforums.net/touring/1113206-taking-rohloff-oil-planes.htmlOne more thing, I do not know if you have flown with a Rohloff or not. But last year I changed the oil shortly before a trip. And for the first several hundred km after I got off the airplane, I found that a lot of the oil was seeping out of the hub, see photo. I have done one oil change since that trip and the oil is not seeping out now any faster now than normal. I suspect that the pressure differences in the airplane may have force oil into a different part of the hub that is not sealed as well (perhaps the gear change mechanism) and accelerated how fast the oil would seep out after the flight. I was concerned that I had some bad seals or gaskets, but now that it is back to normal, that has convinced me that it was just the flight and there is nothing to worry about. So, if you find oil is seeping out of the hub faster than normal after a flight, I would not worry about it. And there is no need to top it up if that happens either because all of the internals will still be coated with oil.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 02:32:07 pm
content: Quote from: Coordonnée_chromatique on June 13, 2024, 09:50:31 amwhy do you have to put things in bold?Sure, there is a lot of news on the internet, and in that "bikeforums" in particular I saw people making a lot of fuss about nothing.Anyway, I'm not interested in mounting that type of hub at the moment, if it ever happens to me, I'll remember to check this matter

author: Coordonnée_chromatique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 03:15:00 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on June 13, 2024, 02:32:07 pmI'm trying to transmit my decades long bike experience, the rolhoff had been designed without any compromises to achive the best effciciency possible on earth with a gearbox hub by using straight toothed gears in a low viscosity oil bath and all the fricion parts had been reduced to the perfect equilibrium... on earth, not in the air.I've listened and talked to MTB riders many times, a lot of them travel with empty hubs because some leaks can pollute a large surface, you can immagine what a mess it is to have oil everthing in and out of your (and others) lugages because it is unwashable.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 03:24:11 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on June 12, 2024, 09:29:20 amI had no idea Sturmey Archer still existed. I haven't seem one of their gearboxes since I was a kid. Great things for reliability, longevity and weather resistance, but really inefficient. I never understood why they were so lossy. Its so much easier to pedal with a derailleur setup, even in situations where the final ratios are very similar.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 10:30:52 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 13, 2024, 03:24:11 pmThe company was founded in 1902, Sturmey Archer has been around for over 100 years.Things have changed several times, especially in the last 20 years!Mine is the new version similar to the AW, with an aluminum shell and the rotary shifting all interface inside the dropout. No brake.The only negative notes are:Quick Release is not an option, and this is a problem as there are not wheel bags for protruding axles wheelsyou don't find a 3/32" chain sprocket included in the package and you have to buy it separatelybeing able to mount only dished sprockets, the 3/32" sprokets choice is limited to { 17T 18T 19T }in the package you only find included a fucrum lever set for an inverted rear dropout, which is not suitable for racing bikes, and you have to buy one for a standard/vertical rear dropoutfor snowy or icy roads they spread a lot of salt, it would be better to buy a stainless steel fulcrum lever set, which exists in the SA catalogue, but it is very difficult to findTo make sensible comparisons you need to install powermeters on the pedals and compare how many watts were needed to travel 200km for a given average speed.I assembled the wheel you see in the photo, which I mounted on the road bike, and I can tell you that in 200km travelled, first with the rear wheel with then with internal SA gearbub, I have not noticed this great inefficiency. The only problem is that the SA hub adds about 600g of extra weight, and this requires more watts when climbing.It must also be said that with a 3 speed IGH you don't have all the choice of metric developments offered by a 8speed derailleur, and you have to get used to pedaling with a different cadence again.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 11:11:08 pm
content: Evoc is amazing!!!(higher quality, but too expensive, anyway)

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 05:37:58 pm
content: if you can afford the cost of today's air travel you can afford a compact folding bike.otherwise if the migration by air is an annual activity. maybe plan to have a second bike for the other location.maybe have a friend be responsible for it when you not there. have two bikes for all seasons.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 04:33:55 am
content: Quote from: jonovidCompact folding bicycles are suitable for small urban travel.To save money, I won't get an apartment in the center, but very far outside.I definitely would never want to cycle for more than 90km/day on one of those bikesQuote from: jonovidIn the last two years, 2022-2023, I traveled by plane ~20 times, by I took my bicycle with me only half times, most never to the same destination, with a few exceptions, and most of the time I had my bicycle with me to cycle in warm places, such as spain, portugal, greece, northern italy, ...I've also been to Japan twice, but only brought the bike once. The funny thing is that I had to rent a mini apartment, and I also had to rent a mini garage to put the bike in because keeping it inside limited the little space available too much. The dude who rented the apartment to me knew this perfectly, in fact he immediately offered the mini box for additional money. Not bad, in the end.I miss Norway and almost all the Scandinavian countries from the list, because if I have been there, I didn't bring the bike with me, with the promise "next time ...". So, after a year of thinkening and improvments, this time I would like to take the opportunity to try and bring a bit of English technology to the scene (Sturmey Archer, on both hubs), and, among other things, while everyone is fitting hydraulic disc brakes on their carbon super bikes, I'm modifying a drum brake on a 1995 Titanium classic frame built in Birmingham

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 06:23:25 pm
content: reinventing the bicycle wheel.the knock-down or ready-to-assemble fibreglass pizza wheel designed for a bicycle.that requires time-consuming assembly with a hex screwdriver.a pizza slice type 700c wheel made up of 8 solid curved aluminium rim segments with 8 fibreglass inside panels.the use of curved aluminium tongue & groove ends for the 8 outer fit together rim segments.the hub will fit together with machined metal flanges on to the 8 rim & fibreglass panel segments by hex head bolts.then the use of use a folding bike tire.the wheel disc structure stiffness will be at the cost of added weight. so wheel alignment is necessarywith wheel laser alignment tool as part of the kit. packing shim spacers on to the rim were needed.anyone with CAD can have fun reinventing the bicycle wheel.if you need some art I can add that later

author: Coordonnée_chromatique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 06:45:04 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on June 15, 2024, 04:33:55 amI've tested a lot of frames but no titanium, could you say what is your feeling with the geometry and the frame material ?

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 03:02:17 pm
content: Quote from: Coordonnée_chromatique on June 15, 2024, 06:45:04 pmMine is a classic 80s geometry made with grade 9 titanium tubing.Right after the first 50km you feel it rides smooth and more comfortable than a steel frame from the early 90s, however, compared to my 1996 Moser Forma, steel, this time, but with same classic geometry, wheels, saddle and size, both perform in the same way, and both have a 10mm lower center of gravity than other frames, making the ride slightly more stable, and it feels like riding velvet, with a bike that "speaks" to you, makes you understand well before a curve, how you need to set it up to keep the trajectory as fluid as possible.Many people think of titanium as a very comfortable bike, but I feel like that's especially the case because they use 30-40 year old steel frames.Steel has evolved positively! Nivacrom steel is a fantastic alloy! Titanium hasn't evolved that much and also depends a lot on the design and construction of the frame, not just the material.