Enphase to cut 10% of Global Workforce - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 02:59:18 am
content: They were making 10M microinverters per quarterhttps://www.reuters.com/business/energy/enphase-energy-cut-about-10-its-global-workforce-2023-12-18/Quote

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 10:59:40 am
content: Not surprising. DC-AC Inverters and solar panels have become so cheap nowadays that microinverters are too expensive. Only interesting for solar panel installers that like to make money on materials but likely they are being outbid by installers who use DC-AC inverters. It would not surprise me if an analysis of the sales of Enphase shows an increase in storage systems and they start to shift their core business in that direction.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 11:46:01 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 19, 2023, 10:59:40 amYeah. Regardless of how much I have voiced my preference for string inverters, due to them being good enogh, cheaper, (and possibly maybe perhaps more reliable) - this is also the realistic default choice on most parts of the planet outside the USA -, I would really love to see microinverters succeed because there are many (even if small) theoretical advantages that can be had if only practical problems (mostly small, too) are solved. If I were to dictate the direction for the technology, it would be integration of the microinverter into the panel, and then standardizing on a super reliable yet cheap to manufacture AC mains wiring plug, so that no electrician would be needed for the connections, and wiring harnesses (with factory-made T joints and stuff like that) for 90-95% most typical installation layouts could be made in advance. Economics of scale and ease of installation would then bring the price down.Right now, it's the opposite: thanks to standardization of MC4 connector (despite some compatibility problems, which people conveniently ignore, so let's ignore it here, too), DC strings are easy to do, and the electrician only has to wire up the inverter. With microinverters, you have to mount them, wire the DC side up, andthenwire the AC side, for which you need an electrician on the roof, and you likely have to wire up some distribution boxes on the roof as well.But Enphase having to cut doesn't necessarily relate to microinverters having problems against string inverters. It could well be a market response for panel prices increasing in 2020-2021, and early adopters who got their systems installed "no matter how much is costs" already satisfied. Now market has responded by panel prices going down again but people are still not buying more PV systems currently.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 11:52:25 am
content: QuoteIm sure thecartelstrade bodies will let that happen

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 12:45:56 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 19, 2023, 11:52:25 amCartels have power, but not unlimited power. One can buy a TV and plug it in, because it has a plug that is allowed to be connected by end users. It is possible to come up with new connector plugs that are legal for end users to plug, while being weather resistant for permanent installations. The requirements are in existing standards and trade unions / cartells have no veto power to prevent standard compliant products. If an easier-to-install PV panel/inverter comes to market, companies making the installs happily take the savings, especially as they can initially keep the price up and pocket the difference, it takes time until competition drives install prices down to match the savings.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 01:19:58 pm
content: All well and good developing a system that lets the end user plug in the panels to an inverter,but then what? want to connect to your existing installation?sorry thats notifiable work here in the uk,and good luck finding someone to sign off your work.You want to feed it back into the grid? the utility companys needs to see a micro generation certificate for the installation from a credited installer.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 01:30:40 pm
content: The rest of the world is more sensible and has no problems with installing your own solar panel system.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 01:47:10 pm
content: Quotemaybe as a stand alone system,but what about running alongside an existing installation,or feeding into the grid?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 01:58:31 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 19, 2023, 01:47:10 pmNo problem at all. Over energy companies don't care who installed it. I did the entire solar panel install on my roof by myself including mains connections. I bought a solar panel DIY kit which came with all the mounting hardware, wiring, connectors, etc.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 02:13:57 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 19, 2023, 11:46:01 amThey really painted themselves into a corner with the single panel inverters, and forgot to innovate.Like that Hoymiles inverter that Dave reviewed. Takes 4 panel, rated to 1500W (375W/panel) and the price of it in NL is 250EUR. You don't need extra boxes in the system. ENPHASE IQ8AC is 140 EUR, only good for 1 panel and only rated for 365W peak, needs an extra little box to connect to the internet. You really need to be a fanboy to spend more for the inverters than the panels themselves.I don't think it's an issue of microinverters, It's an issue of pricing, and economies of not scaling.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 02:16:25 pm
content: Quoteyou wouldnt get as far as hiring the roof ladder over here before someones demanding to see some bit of paper to prove you know how to use a roof ladder

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 02:22:09 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 19, 2023, 02:16:25 pmMy neighbor has one in his garage, I think it goes up to 15m high.UK has to stop being a nanny for grownups?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 02:36:25 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 19, 2023, 10:59:40 amEnphase has moved to storage systems, but the main reason for the reduction in their microinverter business is that the electric utilities in California have managed to convince the Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) to change the rules for net metering in a way that makes new solar installations uneconomical.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 03:16:45 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on December 19, 2023, 02:13:57 pmAgreed. I paid 550 euro for a 4.2kW inverter and attached 12 panels to the inverter. The Enphase inverters cost around 140 euro each + another 220 euro for the control box and overvoltage relay. The Enphase solution costs over 3 times more compared to the inverter.And just checking for the panels themselves: the prices have dropped by more than 50% compared to when I bought the panels less than a year ago.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 03:21:52 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 19, 2023, 02:36:25 pmTheir storage solution consists of a bunch of microinverters connected to some batteries. It's a very poor implementation, something you expect university students to hack together, it cannot be price competitive.There has been 20GW of capacity added to the network in the USA, 30 in the EU, so it sounds like excuses for me.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 03:55:49 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 19, 2023, 02:16:25 pmJust wear some clothes which make you look like a contractor and bullshit them, they probably just want to make sure you don't break it. There are so many independents and no way they faff about with non required certifications.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 05:31:14 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 19, 2023, 01:47:10 pmHere in california I know a bunch of people who have installed the system themselves and then hire an electrician just to do the final connection to your distribution panel. But you can even do that yourself as long as it meets code and passes inspection.The feeding into the grid is technically irrelevant. Even a stand alone system needs to meet building codes and be inspected. The only reason it matters is that the utility company won't approve your connection unless you show them a permit and inspection, so you can't do an off-the-books DIY if you want it grid tied.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2023, 12:39:38 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 19, 2023, 11:46:01 amYou need to take this one step further. Solar panels should be in integrated roofing solution. But I'm not sure it is worthwhile to put the inverters into the panels due to costs and reliability.Putting solar panels over existing roofing is nothing more than a crutch. Uniformity is also far apart (from my office window I can see about 12 solar installations and none are the same) and the maintainability of a roof with solar panels retrofitted is non-existent leading to extra costs in case of trouble with the roofing. However integrating solar panels in a roof is only worthwhile for homes which are to be build and it looks like integrated solar panel solutions are expensive. IMHO solar panels for/on roofs are far from a mature product.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 20, 2023, 01:51:59 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on December 19, 2023, 02:13:57 pmAt 10M unit/ quarter I don't think lack of scale is a problem.FYI, the exact same microineverters are also used in the Enphase battery solution:

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 20, 2023, 01:58:55 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 19, 2023, 03:16:45 pmI'm in the very unconfortable position of having both a string system and an Enphase microinverter system and am looking to expand. Still unsure what I should do:Keep both systems and expand the enphase systemKeep both systems and expand the string system with a new bigger hybrid inverter (for battery option)Scrap the string system and go 100% EnphaseScrap the Enphase system and go for one huge string hybrid inverter (or multiple if needed)

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2023, 03:25:29 am
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on December 19, 2023, 05:31:14 pmThere are zero export systems that never feed back to the grid. Have it connect by "temporary" means (plug and socket, keep in mind that the plug must not present a hazard when disconnected) and then the solar/storage unit would be an appliance rather than part of the building. (That may require the panels to be mounted to something other than the roof.)

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2023, 09:33:42 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 20, 2023, 01:51:59 amI'm aware. That-they use microinverters- is the issue.What will cost more, a 4KW inverter, or 12 x360W inverters? All with communication interfaces, microcontrollers, connectors, and so on. It's a really bad engineering decision to do it that way. It doesn't scale, going from 2KW inverter to 4KW inverter, you need a little bit bigger MOSFETS, some capacitors and inductors. We see this with Solaredge inverters, the 3 phase 20 KW one costs 50% more than the 3.6KW system. With microinverters, you more than double the cost.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2023, 10:57:05 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 20, 2023, 01:58:55 amI don't know what the situation is at your side of the world, but over here solar panel prices have dropped by over 50%. If solar panels are super cheap at this moment at your end, it could be worthwhile to have both your systems removed (and sell them on) and put a completely new installation on your roof. You mentioned your home is being extended so it could be a good time for doing this. In the end it depends on the numbers.One thing I don't like about the Enphase inverters is that their cost goes up quite a lot for higher power levels but still don't match the maximum power a panel can output. You might not be getting all the energy from your panels. Especially when it is cold, the panels work much better. The installation I have is 4400Wp but I've seen it trying to push over 5000W into the inverter (which caps it to 4.2kW and runs like that for several hours). Maybe I should have spend 50 euros more on the 4.6kW inverter.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2023, 12:59:09 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 19, 2023, 01:19:58 pmYou totally missed the point. It's not allowing the end user to do the job, that would be a side effect. Doing 60 minutes of mains wiring work on the roof by an electrician, when the alternative is 15 minutes by any construction worker with suitable training means a significant cost difference. More savings can be had from reduction of unnecessary components when level of integration is increased. For example, the MC4 wiring completely disappears.For the same reason, cars are assembled with pre-built wiring harnesses that are plug-and-play, and not workers screwing/crimping/soldering wires. It decreases cost and increases reliability. Currently, string inverter solution is much more plug-and-play than microinverters, given that it is legal and easy for any construction worker to plug in the MC4 connectors. But microinverters need additional mains connections. They should design them so that the mains connections would be as simple to do as the DC connections are on string systems.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2023, 01:01:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 19, 2023, 03:16:45 pmA year ago was the worst time to buy due to all the mass hysteria going on. Now the prices are back to where they were at their lowest a few years ago.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2023, 01:08:58 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 20, 2023, 01:58:55 am5. Don't touch either system, add a third one. You are an engineer, getting a diverse system which generates more data about yet another third option should not hurt. For example, another brand of microinverters.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2023, 01:35:24 pm
content: It is very hard to see people losing their jobs in this time of the yearIt is the sad reality that revenue is totally different than profit (a typical confusion) - the ten million units are worth nothing to the health of a company if margins are unrealistically low. I hope they recover.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2023, 09:08:25 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 20, 2023, 01:35:24 pmMBA playbook: "Money is cheap, so borrow lots". I worked under a engineer/MBA CEO that followed that mantra.It is a catalyst and way to fuel a company into rapid growth. Everybody gets to party and have huge bonuses.But... eventually the business has to make sense... and uh interest rates need to stay low- those days are gone.Enphase debt is around $1.3B with $0.75B due within 12 months. I hope they survive the renewal interest rates to maintain their debt, and the upcoming slowdown.Rolling back inverter production from 10M to 7M/quarter, seems a bit optimistic.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 20, 2023, 09:32:16 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 20, 2023, 01:08:58 pmAdd to my collection:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4IiR4vW0aY&t=3s&pp=ygUTZWV2YmxvZzIgbW9uaXRvcmluZw%3D%3DBoth systems are coming down in the next few months for house renovations.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2023, 10:27:10 pm
content: Solar lives and dies by gov subsidies.