Galileo navigation system unusable - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2019, 05:41:02 pm
content: Since 2019-07-11 01:00UTC the Galileo system has been unusable. The current status is shown as "degraded", but none of my dozen or so GPS receivers that can track Galileo are able to calculate a navigation solution.https://www.gsc-europa.eu/system-status/Constellation-InformationHere is a report of what another guy is seeing:http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2019-July/097095.html

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2019, 07:28:58 pm
content: Just shows no one uses the system. Looks like a total FUBAR. They are leaving each the satellite status blank!

author: kj7e
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2019, 09:34:02 pm
content: I've been seeing the same thing on both of my GPSDO's. Not able to lock or use Galileo even though I'm tracking 8 SV's with good C/N0. BeiDou has been solid on the other hand. Wonder if Galileo and their failing clocks is a bigger issue than they thought.All Sats show as "Not Usable"https://www.gsc-europa.eu/system-status/Constellation-Information

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2019, 09:41:23 pm
content: https://insidegnss.com/update-galileo-service-degraded-on-all-satellites-precise-timing-facility-problems-cited/

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2019, 09:43:42 pm
content: System status changed from "degraded" to "service outage".

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 12:46:41 pm
content: Quote from: imo on July 13, 2019, 09:41:23 pmThat website doesn't seem to be working any better than the satellites.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 12:55:34 pm
content: Time to recap how to use the sextant again

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 02:05:53 pm
content: From /.:QuoteSo they have to fix that SPOF before going fully operational.

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 06:41:31 pm
content: Supposedly there is a backup timing facility in Germany... oops... this saga just gets better...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 07:42:17 am
content: This is painful and also a wonderful demonstration of the vulnerability of the system if we ever need to use it in anger, which would mean a conflict with the US.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 08:48:23 am
content: When I was interested in GPS a while back I seem to remember the space segment had an autonomous mode that did not rely on ground stations.... Does Galileo not have this?PSWho cares... Post Halloween the UK will be out and will Germany be able to justify the project?

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 09:31:41 am
content: Quote from: NivagSwerdna on July 15, 2019, 08:48:23 amI am sure the workers in Surrey Satellite Technology worry about it!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 09:33:47 am
content: People use Galileo?

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 09:41:21 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 15, 2019, 09:33:47 amNo, which is why no one noticed for few days. However, my cheap Chinese phone receives them, pity none of my GPSDOs do. There is a phone 'app' called GPSTest which has Satellite status screens much like Lady Heather's, which is worth a look.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 09:48:05 am
content: All the satellites go down? I've seen this before...

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 10:29:40 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 15, 2019, 09:33:47 amCant hesitate to state obvious: yes they do, usually w/o even knowing that. Now there are >795m devices with seamless multi-constellation support. The more satellites you can receive - the better positioning performance/resolution. It's also good in case one of the systems goes down

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 10:45:25 am
content: Quote from: ogden on July 15, 2019, 10:29:40 amMy Huawei phone only has GPS and GLASNOSS.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 10:51:22 am
content: You just know when 'An Anomaly Review Board has been immediately set up to analyse the exact root cause and to implement recovery actions.' it is going to take a very long time to fix.'Users will be informed regularly, including on the service recoverydate.'https://www.gsc-europa.eu/news/update-on-the-availability-of-some-galileo-initial-services

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 10:59:03 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 15, 2019, 10:45:25 amThen your phone most likely is older than few years. Also not in this list (currently 145 phones):https://www.usegalileo.eu/EN/inner.html#data=smartphone. BTW Huawei P30 have dual frequency receiver

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 11:01:28 am
content: The difference between GPS and GNSS is the initial intention. GPS is military and Galileo is civilian.My iPhone 8 has Assisted GPS, GLONASS, Galileo en QZSS. Since not all systems offer similar coverage in all parts of the world.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 11:07:53 am
content: Quote from: ogden on July 15, 2019, 10:59:03 amIt's a Mate 20It's in the list but I see no option for Galileo in the softwareThere is an option to switch on GLASNOSS but it off by default because it chews more power.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 11:12:13 am
content: They have broken radio silence on Twitter, but no meaningful response to questions:Quote

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 12:10:06 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 15, 2019, 11:07:53 amSorry, no xperience with Huawei. What I can tell - multiple constellations helps. I saw significant improvement in urban (narrow streets) positioning when I upgraded from "GPS only" to "GPS + Glonass". Thanx to Japan you could be interested inQZSSphone list:https://qzss.go.jp/en/usage/products/list.html.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 12:35:35 pm
content: https://www.gsc-europa.eu/news/update-on-the-availability-of-some-galileo-initial-servicesI know some Galileo core developers, I will ask and report back.EDIT: They don't know either, they are just so imbarassed to talk about it. They promise to give me more details when they know.PS: Keep a mission critical equipment/facility in Italy?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 12:50:26 pm
content: Quote from: texaspyro on July 14, 2019, 06:41:31 pmYep! In normal operation the German ground station controls the satellites and the Italian station takes care about the time synchronization. If one fails the other one is meant to take over. Apparently this didn't happen. Let's wait what they will find out.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 01:01:28 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 15, 2019, 09:33:47 amSome (maybe a lot?) receiver modules support GNSS and it's supposed to be more accurate than GPS. One example is u-blox.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 01:07:26 pm
content: Quote from: madires on July 15, 2019, 12:50:26 pmWhole thing is down for couple of days already and they still do not know what happened? Come onQuestion here is - will they tell what *actually* happened?

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 01:08:48 pm
content: In this building the shit is hitting the fan:https://galileognss.eu/gst-galileo-system-time/http://www.telespazio.com/about-us-chi-siamo/our-company/space-centres/fucino

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 02:55:37 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 15, 2019, 11:07:53 amThe GLASNOSST was a different system serving a different purpose 35y backPS: the reasons of the failure could be:1. the CERN scientists have finally created a Black-hole, thus moving the time back in the region close to those centers, or,2. the speed of light as a fundamental constant of physics has been put into question:https://www.italymagazine.com/italy/research/italian-scientists-beat-speed-light

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 03:36:09 pm
content: There is speculation the Italians just went on their Summer Holidays and service will resume on their return.

author: awallin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 03:41:10 pm
content: Quote from: madires on July 15, 2019, 12:50:26 pmThe Oberpfaffenhoffen PTF must be something separate from UTC(DLR) then?http://webtai.bipm.org/database/canvas.html?utclab=ok&lab=dlr&mjd1=56833&mjd2=58674UTC(DLR) doesn't seem to be doing so great timekeeping...

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 04:48:46 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 15, 2019, 11:01:28 amNope, Galileo is military. It has a rather nice encrypted military signal. The reason Galileo was created was so that the US could not deny Europe access to a military grade signal. Also the reason Great Britain is going to do a post-Brexit sat system after they are kicked out of Galileo.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 05:17:53 pm
content: Quote from: texaspyro on July 15, 2019, 04:48:46 pmTherefore nobody complains during the 4 days outage

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 05:19:16 pm
content: Quote from: awallin on July 15, 2019, 03:41:10 pmBoth stations are run by Spaceopal which is owned by DLR and Telespazio. Each has four caesium clocks and two hydrogen maser clocks.

author: MasterT
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 10:58:03 pm
content: Seems Fifth republic is gonna to beg Mr. Czar of the "Red Sky" to sell them C-400?Right after Turkish fully deploy theirs.Advancing in technology may be bloody dangerously in case of failure, making precise guided very expensive weaponry just a useless toys. And Italians and Germans are not members of the nuke club, nothing to worry about for them.(Declaimer: my own speculation).

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 03:56:58 am
content: Well, usually its there, screenshot from my phone, only GPS, GLONASS and BEIDOU.

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2019, 01:42:25 am
content: My F9T starting tracking sats at 19:22:10Reports of massive face-palm injuries occurring throughout many European space tech sites continue... Sales of anti-guillotine neck protectors increase 10,000%

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2019, 03:08:48 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on July 16, 2019, 03:56:58 amWhat is the app name? Works with Apple or Android, both? Thx

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2019, 03:58:21 am
content: GPS Test by Chartcrosshttps://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.chartcross.gpstest&hl=en_US

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2019, 04:08:00 am
content: Yeah, thats the one.No affiliation, suggesting to buy the paid version instead free one, dirt cheap and one time payment with perpetual support. No fishy permissions needed, except access to GPS, works totally offline.https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.chartcross.gpstestplus&hl=en_USI have been using it for years, and sometimes just for fun I used when on plane, with phone in "Airplane Mode" and sit beside plane windows, it shows the speed, altitude and heading.

author: awallin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2019, 03:02:13 pm
content: Quote from: madires on July 15, 2019, 12:50:26 pmhttps://insidegnss.com/galileo-outage-update-service-failure-poses-serious-questions/(site is a bit slow... wonder why)talks about redundancy with two sites not working in practice... I wonder what the contracts with Thales say about outages

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2019, 09:00:24 pm
content: “…has to do with the Precise Time Facility (PTF), a redundant facility present in both Italian and German control centers.”This quote does not make sense. They cannot both be redundent. It appears they are placing the blame Dave's old military friends! The Radio Silence tactic is not going down well.It's bit like Ulster Bank here. 3rd world outsourced staff FUBARed the main mainframe. Tried to save face, so delayed pulling it's plug. The FUBAR got automatically replicated after a couple of hours on the redundant backup mainframe. They discovered their was no backup of their batch scripts etc. Took a couple of weeks to get them running again, a couple more weeks to rebuild/get the the data up to date. About 5 years to finish sorting out the court cases. ATMs were programmed to give out 500 euro each, with no balance check. Some customers had a great time, for most it was a diaster...https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_RBS_Group_computer_system_problems

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2019, 09:16:35 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on July 17, 2019, 09:00:24 pmThey can be both redundant but not at the same time.

author: ve7xen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 01:35:02 am
content: NAVSAS, onanalysisof some recorded signal captures and using out-of-band ephemerides have concluded that the clocks on the satellites were fine throughout, however their ephemerides were not being updated. The resulting position error was due to the orbits drifting and the correction data being old. Luckily the satellites transmit the age of the data, and the spec suggests discarding samples if they're older than 4h, so receivers seem to have known to ignore them despite them transmitting that they were healthy.Seems like the initial blame on the timing wasn't correct, however those facilities might be the same ones responsible for tracking the satellites and updating their ephemerides.Hopefully a public report comes out.

author: kj7e
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 11:59:38 am
content: Galileo shows to be back on-line and usable;https://www.gsc-europa.eu/system-status/Constellation-Information

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 12:32:25 pm
content: https://www.gsa.europa.eu/newsroom/news/galileo-initial-services-have-now-been-restored:Quote

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 12:36:37 pm
content: QuotePhone says otherwise!

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 12:50:30 pm
content: https://www.gsa.europa.eu/newsroom/news/galileo-initial-service-recovery-actions-underwayQuote

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 01:09:58 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on July 18, 2019, 12:36:37 pmMy phone says A for 14 but AEU for 33.

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 05:17:37 pm
content: More info:https://destevez.net/2019/07/galileo-constellation-outage/

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 05:32:52 pm
content: Quote from: texaspyro on July 18, 2019, 05:17:37 pmAn interesting read, thanks! That also explains the 'A' flag for E14 on my phone.Here's some more about the flags in GPSTest:https://github.com/barbeau/gpstest/blob/master/FAQ.md

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 06:35:23 pm
content: Galileo Initial Services have now been restored. The technical incident originated by an equipment malfunction in the Galileo ground infrastructure, affecting the calculation of time and orbit predictions, and which are used to compute the navigation message. The malfunction affected different elements on the ground facilities.https://www.gsc-europa.eu/news/galileo-initial-services-have-now-been-restored

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 08:23:13 am
content: They told me they had the same buggy SW in Germany and Italy so both went down.It's fascinating it took so long in 2019 to find the SW bug.

author: testpoint1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 04:12:17 am
content: the system use the PHM clock, I ever test it, other system, Russia (CS clock) and China (RB clock), also meet the stability problem. now only GPS is stable for clock synchronization.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 04:30:37 pm
content: https://www.politico.eu/article/galileo-blackout-followed-effort-to-guard-against-cyber-threats/:When Fucino started having problems Oberpfaffenhofen was installing security updates and couldn't take over.Edit: fixed ":" in URL

author: guenthert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 04:44:59 pm
content: The article might have been moved, the current URL ishttps://www.politico.eu/article/galileo-blackout-followed-effort-to-guard-against-cyber-threats/It's a bit light on details. Even if there was an upgrade in progress, why did it take a week to recover? Was the guy with the root password on vacation in the Andes?“I'm not saying it’s a nice situation,” he said. “But it’s also important that for most citizens it was not perceived that Galileo was not there.” 10e10 Euro well spent

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 05:22:17 pm
content: The Czech Space Defense Forces (HQ is in Prague) have to take over the control over the system then, as it is with the other systems