Oscilloscope advice - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Vok Jon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 08:07:07 pm
content: HelloI choose an oscilloscope and need your opinions. Budget about 2000 EU with VAT. I choose from 5 options:MSO5104 + PLA2216 + Free bundleSDS2104X Plus + SPL2016 + SDS2000XP-FG + SDS2000XP-16LA (expensive)SDS2104X Plus + SPL2016 + Some logical analyzer from ebayDSOX1204G + D1200BW1A + Some logical analyzer from ebayR&S RTB 2004 without any bundle (I won't have a frequency generator) + Some logic analyzer from ebayI will use the equipment for audio amplifier testing (So I need a frequency generator) and for testing projects where I use microcontrollers (I need a logic analyzer).I want to buy equipment that I can trust and work with it at least a few years.After reading the forums, MSO and SDS are annoyed by having a large number of bugs.I don’t want to impose my opinion, so I won’t write why which model I like or dislike. After reading other forum posts, I see that there are people who have acquired and have tried to compare these different models. So please help me, which model would you choose?

author: stafil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 08:09:33 pm
content: - R&S RTB 2004 without any bundle is wasted money.- SDS2104X Plus can be hacked, so no need to buy software options like SDS2000XP-FG + SDS2000XP-16LA

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 09:40:00 pm
content: You are missing the GW Instek MSO-2204EA from the list. Solid firmware and well suited for doing embedded work. If you don't want /can spend the money on an RTB2004 it is the best next thing. Due to the way Siglent oscilloscopes manage the memory these oscilloscopes are not a good fit for doing embedded software development. When doing embedded work you'll want to see what is outside the screen regulary because something interesting / unexpected pops up. Siglent scopes don't record outside the screen unless you enable the zoom mode but that is a crude workaround which also eats away valuable screen space you want to use for protocol decoding and showing digital channels.A seperate logic analyser is a nice tool to have but you can do 99% of the logic analyser tasks with an MSO and an MSO can show the signals in realtime.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 09:52:45 pm
content: You need to understand the effect that quantisation and nonlinearity specs will have on your audio measurements. Especially if you are working in the frequency domain.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 09:43:20 am
content: The members quoted comments below are based on some vendetta against Siglent from experiences in the past.Quote from: nctnico on June 08, 2020, 09:40:00 pmYou really need qualify this ^ so I will with a following edit:QuoteQuote from: nctnico on June 08, 2020, 09:40:00 pmAgainanother qualification edit ^ required:QuoteQuote from: nctnico on June 08, 2020, 09:40:00 pmYour so called crude workaroundallows use of a very powerful feature in the modern DSO, aka deep memory !One can only begin to imagine your analysis workflow as it seems like some carryover from days when DSO's had pitiful memory depths which of course today you are well aware is not the case.Instead you persist portraying an arse backwards capture analysis methodology that for readers has been well explored in another thread.I well understand habits learnt in the early days are hard to break even if they might lead to better analytical results which of course you may not need or want but just maybe gives some credence to the old saying; you can't teach an old dog new tricks.Trouble is, being some 10 years older than you, this old dog has learnt some new tricks which are to maximize mem depth and work within a portion of it......and it's called.....Zoom mode and provides entirely consistent results throughout all timebase settings unlike some twiddling of a single timebase in a capture.The SDS2104X Plus uses ~25% of its 10" display for the primary timebase leaving some 75% for work, not your 50/50 split of entry level DSO's.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 09:48:32 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 09, 2020, 09:43:20 amThis wise dog (who actually uses oscilloscopes to make a living) has learned what good tools are and which not. And this wise dog has also learned not to trust sales people because they always BS around serious limitations. Where did your signature line go which says you are a Siglent dealer? Kinda lame to hide your vested interests here.For sure Siglent has made great progress the last few years and buggy firmware seems to be a thing from a distant past but their oscilloscopes are not the best choice/fit for embedded hardware / software engineering. Get over it. Siglent's cooperation with Lecroy clearly shows they are moving into the signal analysis segment. Nothing wrong with that and if someone looks for a cheaper alternative to Lecroy or an oscilloscope for signal analysis then I'll happily point that person to Siglent.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 10:08:19 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 09, 2020, 09:48:32 amWhat doesn't work for you works fine for others.Quote from: nctnico on June 09, 2020, 09:48:32 amClearly displayed in my personal text.....or are you limiting yourself to full knowledge about members with their Profile info turned OFF ?Quote from: nctnico on June 09, 2020, 09:48:32 amYet you dive into this thread with gusto offering advice when the OP has clearly done some homework with a short list of very valid choices.Offering the GW as you did would have been fine if it was just left at that, but no, you had to stick the boot in and unjustifiably so.And so the Nico vs Siglent saga continues..........

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 10:20:46 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 09, 2020, 10:08:19 amIIRC you're also involved in race cars or motor bikes aren't you? When you need maximum performance every little detail starts to count because it is the difference between coming in first or last.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 11:02:01 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 09, 2020, 10:20:46 amWhat's under the bonnet counts most of all......providing the driver has the skill to use it to best effect.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 11:22:14 am
content: But still you'd need a car suitable for the type of race. A formula1 car is not going to win any drag race and vice versa. Even the world's most skilled driver is unable to get to the best results in a car which is less suitable for a given situation.

author: Vok Jon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 11:53:41 am
content: Hellothanks for the active communication. Since the budget is limited, I will probably choose between MSO5104 and SDS2104X Plus. Maybe who tried them both?So far, the SDS2104X Plus has less support from forum members.When choosing an oscilloscope, I might have put hardware in a more important way for now. Because firmware bugs will hopefully be fixed over time. And as for the hardware, I won’t change it.

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 11:58:18 am
content: I exclusively do all embedded work just about... nt is right its annoying as hell, that said i still like siglent for the best value brand out there currently and put up with itI either do the zoom out then zoom in trick or dump the scan to load into my comp... (this is the big reason im looking to do a software mod to kick on nfs/smb saving)I use the SDS2104X Plus + SPL2016 combo, expensive probe but the test clips are grade A unlike the normal chinese junk.. cost is still woof, look in the main thread for it and there is a user that makes cheaper logic cables for it and Rigol's MSO5104Anyone on a budget those are the only two i'd recommend for mid tier above entry level, both can be fully hackedEdit: here is the main thread for the SDS, there are a good 5-10 active people with the scope and more getting one so i wouldnt worry about forum support, it just came out last spring where as the rigol has been out longer of around Fall of 18https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 12:40:48 pm
content: I went for the MSO5074 and built my own LA probes. The only bug I am aware of is that the HDMI out doesn't always start reliably. It can sample 8 Gsps in single channel and (given that you said audio) has a Bode plot function that I've used to characterize amps and preamps. I'm very happy with it.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 01:21:10 pm
content: Maybe you can try with an HDMI switch that removes HDCP. This will improve interoperability.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 01:33:21 pm
content: Quote from: Vok Jon on June 09, 2020, 11:53:41 amHardware is never a real problem in this price range. It is always the firmware and it can take several years until bugs get fixed (where I place Rigol at a high risk based on their past performance). If you buy a piece of equipment make sure it works for you out of the box. Waiting for firmware to get fixed is the biggest mistake you can make.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 10:13:03 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 09, 2020, 01:33:21 pmI disagree, the Siglent scope I bought had hardware problems (missing capacitors) that I argued with Siglent NA about but they wouldn't fix; I threatened to contact the credit card company and they eventually refunded my money. I have since unburdened myself of all Siglent gear.I agree that Rigol are slower than many to issue firmware upgrades but the DS1054Z is fully debugged now and the latest version of the MSO5000 firmware has been very good (other than the HDMI issue).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 08:10:55 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on June 10, 2020, 10:13:03 amBut that piece of equipment was much cheaper and not in the OP's price range. It still doesn't justify the way Siglent has treated you though. IMHO it was a huge error on their behalf to not fix the issue. It has cost them a lot of goodwill.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 09:58:11 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 10, 2020, 08:10:55 pmA certain Siglent dealer who shall remain nameless said that the Siglent NA manager had his head up his @$$, I agree

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 10:11:04 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on June 10, 2020, 09:58:11 pmI live an hour south of their office, need some goons sent in?nctnico,Check out Dave's new video... he has taken on your favorite scope soap box issue... no zoomouts!