help me diagnose/repair a hardware problem. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: exnihilodub
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 06:56:10 pm
content: Hi! This is my first post in this forum. I've decided I ask here due to the quality and helpfulness of the community, and I do look forward to engage in others' issues in return soon!First of all, let me demonstrate my problem. Short version: Screen goes black and GPU fans start turning in fullspeed under graphical load. Only way to fix is to shutdown the PSU and power cycle again.System specs:Ryzen 5 3700x CPUEVGA 2700 S gfx cardRM850 PSU (old, orange one)2x 16 hyperx ramMSI tomahawk max b450 motherboardNow, things I've tried:DDU'd and reinstalled latest driversChanged the mobo, rams and CPU. (all 3 brand new)Checked temperatures. All within acceptable range.Happened in two different partitions, in two different OSes (windows, ubuntu)And lastly, the long version including my findings, and puzzling details:This happens on and off. Happens while I'm gaming, or running GPU intensive applications (stress tests included).It doesn't happen all the time. Sometimes I can get by gaming for hours.When it happens, it happens consecutively. What I mean by consecutively is: Let's say it crashed while gaming. For 5 minutes, I cannot even get the computer to boot with display if I power cycle it. If I try powering the computer on after 10 minutes, it will get to the OS but fail under the slightest graphical load. If I wait 20-30 minutes, I can play games for hours and hours.I continuously pinged my computer while a crash happened. Pings stopped returning back, which means it's not just the display that stops functioning when this crash happens.Went to a friends house numerous times to try exchanging the parts to single out the problem, but the problem never happened at his house. I don't want to give him any disturbance by continuously visiting his place every week :/And lastly, what I think it might be (here's where I require your help mostly):Since this is a temporal problem (happens sometimes and passes if I give it time), I don't think it's a component failure. If it was a bad cap or bad GPU, it would fail under these circumstances, at all times. right?Since this fixes itself by waiting, I think the issue might be related to overheating. (but all the temperatures read OK. Can hardware shut itself down by reading 'hidden' sensors on components that do not report to OS?)And once again, since this is a temporal problem, I think it might be related to house electricity quality during some hours (but wouldn't the circuit breaker trip if some device 'requested' more power than the electricity box can handle?)I also think the problem might be the PSU, but the PSU is a good quality one. Even though it has no sensors, if the problem was temperature related, wouldn't the PSU shut all power down instead of just blacking out the screen?.Those are all my findings and suspicions. I sadly cannot send the graphics card or PSU for RMA because I have some jobs to do with my computer, and the RMA's would cause me to pay import taxes as if I've bought the item anew, which are inhumane in my country unfortunately.I'd be infinitely grateful if you people can help me identify, and hopefully repair this problem, and wish you all a great week!

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 07:54:32 pm
content: You are so close to the issue, it may be helpful to have someone (who may not know as much as you) offer an impression....Since this fixes itself by waiting, I think the issue might be related to overheating. (but all the temperatures read OK. Can hardware shut itself down by reading 'hidden' sensors on components that do not report to OS?)I would say Yes and I would also ask what you are doing to draw the conclusion that "all temperatures read OK". It sure sounds like an intermittent overheating problem or something "believes" there is overheating.A quick search on "Ryzen 5 3700x CPU overheating" yield a lot of hits. My guess is that you have done a search like that. Did you follow up on some of those things - e.g.,https://community.amd.com/t5/processors/ryzen-3700x-90%C2%BAc-on-idle/td-p/69999which may not be exactly what is going on but may give a clue.TwoCents.mine

author: exnihilodub
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 09:00:29 pm
content: Thank you for your reply DrG.I used HWInfo64 and GPU-Z to read all reported temperatures (unfortunately, my gfx card only reports the core temperature. rest is just wattage and voltage.), and all temperatures are within acceptable margins (CPU cores and GPU core below 75C). If you're suspecting that something overheats (like a vrm or PSU component) and does not have a OS-readable sensor, that's my strongest suspicion at the moment as well.Also I think if it was the CPU, it wouldn't happen with my old system. I've already got a brand new CPU after the problem started, as I've stated in "things I've tried" section in my post. The only things carried over to the new system are, my PSU, my graphics card and my house.

author: bobcat2000
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 11:51:32 pm
content: Why don't you remove the video card and use the built-in video from the motherboard just for now?

author: exnihilodub
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 04:49:18 am
content: my CPU does not have integrated graphics. With my old system, the problem did not happen while the card was removed. But that doesn't help me diagnose what is wrong with the computer since I need that card to exert force in the PSU.If you offered removal of the card as a temporary workaround, thanks but I'm looking for a diagnosis.

author: bobcat2000
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 06:47:11 am
content: You can remove the side panel and leave the case open, and use a table fan to blow air to the inside. See how long it will take before the PC crashes.

author: exnihilodub
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 08:04:00 am
content: even without doing that, sometimes it takes 3 days of gaming to make it crash. It's really erratic. All I know is, once it happens, it happens consecutively unless I shut down the system for 20 minutes.But actually, I can try that once it crashes. Blow air into components to see if I can make it boot without waiting at all.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 09:42:14 am
content: It's a pity you can't set the system aside to aggressively diagnose it.What I would be trying is a cpu/gpu benchmark system loader. Don't know where to start in windows, but I'd use a live-usb running Linux, the benchmarks and a few terminal windows displaying temps, dmesg etc.Ramp it up until it stops.What you are describing tho, might be classic GPU bad memory. Does anyone know how to do a GPU memtest?edit: found this..https://sourceforge.net/projects/cudagpumemtest/

author: exnihilodub
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 01:54:14 pm
content: GPU memory test was okay.Also managed to do a 30-min CPU+GPU test without crashing. Sadly couldn't stress it further due to work but 30 minute would saturate every component with temperature right? Both CPU and GPU usage at the time of testing was 99-100%.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 02:47:22 pm
content: I would really start suspecting the PSU.Even good quality, name brand ones fail.Anecdotally, I had very similar symptoms some years ago, and the culprit was indeed the PSU - an Enermax.

author: exnihilodub
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 03:40:50 pm
content: PSU is also in my suspect list but I have one doubt: If in any case PSU was creating the problems, wouldn't it just shut everything down as a safety measure? Though the PSU also might supply inadequate power after prolonged usage, and cause the mobo to go wonky.What were your symptoms?

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 04:04:01 pm
content: This what I experienced:- Hard Crash (black or sometimes frozen screen) only while gaming after ~15-20 minutes.I never had a blue screen or a PSU shutdown.- If I restarted and tried gaming, crash after 1-2 minutes. If I waited some time, same as above.- No issues with light loads (CPU and/or GPU)- No overheating of CPU or GPU- Rest and load voltages Ok, both from HwInfo and DMM but I never caught the crash with either.Change of PSU made the machine rock solid (again).IIRC the configuration, it was an Intel i5-3550, 16GB RAM, some SDD/HDD and a AMD R9 270X, with an Enermax Liberty 500WIf you can borrow a PSU of suitable size, I would really give it a try.

author: bobcat2000
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 06:26:56 pm
content: I have an idea. Stick a meat thermometer from the back near the top of the case or use a meter with a temperature probe if you have one.Compare the actual temperature with the software temperature.

author: Distinctly Average
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2020, 07:30:29 am
content: Until you can swap components you are probably wasting time trying to diagnose this any further. It has happened in a number of different scenarios so unlikely to be the OS. You could run Linux from a USB stick and leave the machine under a heavy load test. That is quite simple under Linux. If it fails like that then you can rule out your normal OS and drivers.Next I would try swapping the GPU. It should be possible to get a cheapo card or borrow one. Find a card from somewhere and run the machine with that.Only way to work out what is happening here is to swap stuff. In know it is not easy though. I work in the industry so it is easy for me in many cases. We work on enterprise level stuff which generally has more diagnostics built in. As we are usually the manufacturer of the kit we support we have the tools and parts to fix things quickly. When it comes to home kit things are a lot harder and there are few reliable tools to help diagnose intermittent problems like this.

author: batpuncher
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 15, 2020, 02:11:08 pm
content: Quote from: newbrain on December 14, 2020, 02:47:22 pmAnother anecdote...Similar symptoms for me recently too, it eventually turned out to be the WiFi USB dongle. The system has been rock solid since replacing it.

author: bobcat2000
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2020, 08:43:36 pm
content: Have you ever figured out what is wrong with your computer?

author: LeonR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2020, 01:31:38 am
content: Try another PSU. Even some high quality models may have problems.I'd also suggest pairing a Zen 2 with a B550 or a X570 motherboard. The chances of having random issues (Zen and Zen+ suffered a lot from those) decrease drastically.

author: exnihilodub
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2020, 01:38:44 pm
content: I'm still trying to induce a crash. When it happens I'll try blowing air on the components to see if it'll immediately let me reboot without waiting (remember, once it crashes it won't boot up to OS unless I make it rest.).If blowing air to cool stuff does not change the outcome, I'll replace the PSU. But I think it will, since time-bound crippling makes me think it's an overheating issue on some component.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2020, 01:43:04 pm
content: QuoteIMHO the most probable reason is faulty GPU or some chance of RAM problems. Try running MEMTEST, or using default SPD settings, not XMP. As of GPU, try Unigine valley with settings using as much video RAM as possible. PSU suggestion sounds really low probability to me. You could also try placing GPU in a different PCI-E slot if there is another one.EDIT: another thought. You could try MSI burner to somewhat reduce GPU fan speed, thus increasing GPU temperature which may help to reintroduce the issue. And/or increase GPU power limit.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2020, 03:31:18 pm
content: It maybe that the PSU does not have sufficient margin on output power. Make sure it is rated at least x1.5 of the total what the computer consumes. GPUs are very power hungry in gaming mode going to hundreds of watts. Best is to measure current consumption on each rail using a clump meter, this is quicker and less invasive than cut wires or make adapters for a regular meter.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2020, 05:00:56 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on December 18, 2020, 03:31:18 pmPSU explanation does not cope well with failing to boot properly after the crash.

author: exnihilodub
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 01:33:55 pm
content: Got it to crash again yesterday. Blowing air on GPU or PSU did not hasten the waiting period to "fix" the problem. Maybe blowing air does not remove heat efficiently.I'll be having a friend over soon with their GPU. I'll make it crash again and then swiftly swap the GPU to test while everything is still warm. That will either single out or rule out the GPU as a problem.I'll report with the updates.