ISO 9001 – The Kiss of Death for Quality? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2020, 09:03:16 am
content: Is it just me or bad luck, or has anyone else noticed that firms that advertise their QC certifications tend to have worse quality control, not better?I received some A4 (grade 316) DIN 125 washers, from what should be a reputable Bavarian supplier, who proudly show their DIN EN ISO 9001:2008 certification and proclaim that they are (my translation) "not simply just good, but among the best".More than a third of the washers were so poorly stamped that they are too thick for the norm. Here are the particularly special ones and some of the others:[ Specified attachment is not available ]Are some of the washers also a little dark for new, marine grade stainless?I was just curious if anyone else has noticed a negative correlation.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2020, 09:58:38 am
content: That's pretty much my experience from my previous employer, a small systems integration type company of about a dozen staff. In the lead up to an ISO audit documents were updated, support tickets were raised/closed/whatever, any hardware was labelled - some of it was literally an A4 laser printed sheet taped to a shelf! Anything non-compliant was taken home or put in the backs of cars...The auditors generally couldn't give a toss, as long as "i"s were dotted and "t"s were crossed.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2020, 10:44:00 am
content: Quote from: MasterTech on August 08, 2020, 09:38:56 amSo in this case, you might say 9001 attracts firms that are more into paper than parts.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2020, 11:03:47 am
content: Having been involved in a few ISO9001 preparations it's about "minimum effort to satisfy the paperwork". What tends to happen is this complicates the business and manufacturing processes considerably which results in there needing to be cost cutting measures elsewhere to keep margins up which leads to a decline in overall quality but an increase in accountability.So really you end up going from "products where you don't know if they are good quality or not" (but might be) to "products which are shit but we know it and have the paperwork to prove they aren't too shit".

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2020, 11:14:25 am
content: Quote from: jfiresto on August 08, 2020, 09:03:16 amAnd you can be sure that next week, next month, next year they will still be just as bad. ISO9001 isn't about thedegreeof quality but rather theconsistencyof quality. If you wanted to put a cat among the pigeons you could raise a Corrective Action Report. If they don't do something about it they could lose their certification. Well, that's the theory anyway...

author: Feynman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2020, 02:41:43 pm
content: Quote from: jfiresto on August 08, 2020, 09:03:16 amI guess, there is a misconception about what ISO certification actually means or to be more precise what it doesn't mean.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2020, 04:17:16 pm
content: Quote from: Circlotron on August 08, 2020, 11:14:25 amThat's is, if the ISO9001 process works as intended. Considering that from experience auditors seem to have trouble following their own standards not even the shitty quality is guaranteed. I used to feel ISO9001 is quite respectable but having gone through a few audits it's a shit charade. Some companies use it to actually better themselves but I feel most just go for window dressing.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2020, 06:43:32 pm
content: Certifications generally make things worse.Have you seen what MISRA C does to the code? It turns it into unmaintainable mess. And actively discourages readable code because of a few people that did not know how to program and though that nobody can because of that.And ISO 9001 documents processes. If your process was to make shit product, then as long as it is documented as such, you are in the clear.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2020, 07:51:30 pm
content: Quote from: jfiresto on August 08, 2020, 09:03:16 amISO9001 just means their documentation is in good order, nothing else. So, thsy can have documents that say how to make extremely poor-quality parts at a high rate, and that will be totally acceptable to the ISO9001 auditors.Jon

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2020, 08:44:22 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on August 09, 2020, 07:51:30 pmISO9001 supposedly means their documentation is in good order.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2020, 09:36:43 pm
content: A pcb fab company kept giving dismal results despite claiming they were "ISO 9001". Turns out they internally audited their own quality system and of course, found no wrong. Like a CE stamp.I learned the hard wayISO 9001 has to be independently audited.Another company I worked for wanted ISO 9001 certification just for marketing, to look modern and appease the Board of Directors. They didn't care about quality afterwards and kind of resented having QMS staff on payroll, poking around and barking yet powerless to really change anything, they had no authority.Afterwards, there was no maintenance of the QMS and it just deteriorated. When problems showed up it was CYA.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2020, 09:40:20 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on August 09, 2020, 09:36:43 pmIndependent auditing will do nothing to improve the quality. In fact, ISO9001 is independently audited. I feel you may be misunderstanding what ISO9001 entails.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2020, 10:33:24 pm
content: Their websiteseems to agree with what I saw:"Checking that the system works is a vital part of ISO 9001. It is recommended that an organization performs internal audits to check how its quality management system is working. An organization may decide to invite an independent certification body to verify that it is in conformity to the standard,but there is no requirement for this.Alternatively, it might invite its clients to audit the quality system for themselves."As soon as you do your own internal audits, it can easily be corrupted.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2020, 10:40:41 pm
content: Most of the annoyance people find with ISO9001 stems from a misunderstanding about its purpose. Its not about achieving high quality or even better quality. Its about achieving consistent quality. If you make crap now it should ensure you continue to make very similar crap, unless you take specific action to improve quality, and lock yourself into those improved processes.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2020, 10:53:21 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on August 09, 2020, 10:33:24 pmCertification will need to be done independently. But that wasn't the point. Quality is not part of ISO9001. It's a standard that prescribes having standards but not necessarily any resulting quality. It's about establishing a process, even if this means every product reaching your customer fails immediately. You may make shit but as long as you describe how you make shit it's fully ISO9001 compliant. A compounding issue is that even these standards aren't audited consistently, even though they should. The effectiveness of ISO9001 if it worked as intended would be debatable, but reality is different from how it is supposed to work even when audited independently.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2020, 10:57:53 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 09, 2020, 10:40:41 pmI suspect many companies commit to ISO9001 certification banking on this confusion. They fly it as a seal of approval and quality and most won't know the difference.