Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2016, 08:11:06 pm
content: Hi guys!I must confess that right now Im really pissed at Keysight. I mean really pissed. Please take a moment to read what happened, I'll try to sum it up so you dont get bored.Last year my DSO2024A refused to turn on. I bought this brand new at Farnell and it was still within warranty. I sent it in to Keysight for repair, they told me it was impossible to repair the scope and sent me a replacement one. Great!Then I was out of the country and the replacement scope sat unused for 5 months (I just turned it on once to make sure it was fine), and during hat period the warranty expired. When I finally got back and decided to use the equipment, it turned on fine, but after around 40 minutes of operation, all channels become noisy and a message pops up on the screen saying the scope encountered a PLL error and should be serviced. WTF?I called Keysight and sent it in for repair. Now I just got a bill of $1.980,00 FOR REPAIR. Yes, thats almost 2 thousand dollars to get it repaired.I have tried to talk to everyone I could at Keysight but they insist I must pay this and theres no other way around it. I'm still shocked and have absolutely no idea on what to do.I havent been lucky with Agilent/Keysight at all. In the last 3 years, this is the thrid time a brand new equipment fails on me, while my Tektronix and Fluke stuff just lasts forever.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2016, 09:07:10 pm
content: Well, some Keysight instruments can fail in five years or so.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2016, 09:26:05 pm
content: Shit that sounds like a raw deal.We see your post has been thanked...wonder if they have some similar experiences to share.Somebody had better warn Carlos.We have Daniel from Keysight on the forum, maybe this thread can be bought to his attention for his input.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 01:02:09 am
content: You can always buy a rigol scope and save on nasty PLL error message. Rigol PLL not working right from the factory, the difference is they do not tell you that. So yeah, that is the reason so many happy rigol owners on the forum.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 01:14:04 am
content: Standard 5 year warranty? Or is this limited to certain countries?

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 01:30:08 am
content: That is really frustrating.One of the things I asked Rigol was how much it would cost to repair the DS4014 I was thinking about buying when it was out of warranty one day.They told me back in 2014 that out of warranty service was:It is $250 or 10% of the purchase price, whichever is greater.. plus shipping to/from our repair office in Cleveland, OH.I've never tested it, and I don't know if it has changed since then, but it sounded reasonable.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 01:35:03 am
content: Are DSO2024A a Rigoletto OEM?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 01:40:41 am
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 20, 2016, 08:11:06 pmAn MSO2024 from Keysight is only $2150!http://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Premium-Used-MSOX2024A-Oscilloscope-200MHz-4-8-Ch-Agilent-MSOX2024A-/182061917028?hash=item2a63bc6364:g:2lcAAOSwzgRW1hK5

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 03:36:54 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on May 20, 2016, 09:07:10 pmThe problem is that my U3606 failed within 6 months and then again after 2 years. This DSO2024A failed twice also (I believe warranty here is 3 years but Im not 100% sure, have to check - bad memory). I checked and warranty is ONLY 3 YEARS here.Quote from: tautech on May 20, 2016, 09:26:05 pmI do hope Daniel chimes in. I currently run a company and have more than 30 scopes right now. None of my Tektronix ever failed, and I do have some REALLY old models! I'm really not buying any stuff from Keysight as I dont wanna loose that much money in such a short time, with such a bad customer support.Quote from: Someone on May 21, 2016, 01:14:04 amNot 5 years, I believe its 2 or 3 years. Wair a second let me check...YES, 3 YEARS ONLY HERE.Quote from: EEVblog on May 21, 2016, 01:40:41 amYES Dave! Thats why I'm so pissed. Such a high repair price is just RIDICULOUS, especially if you consider that this is a (defective) replacement unit!!

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 03:46:45 am
content: I would also like to explain a little more about myself so you guys know why I'm so pissed.I run a company down here and I have around 40 Fluke meters (mostly 87Vs), 30 scopes (mostly Tektronix), and a huge number of other testing equipment - RF generators, Spectrum Analyzers, many arbitrary waveform generators etc. I have thousands and thousands invested in test equipment, ALL from reputable brands like Fluke, Keysight, Tektronix, LeCroy, etc. No cheap chinese stuff.None of my equipment ever failed on me, except for the ones from Keysight. I recently started replacing my Tektronix scopes for Keysight models, but I terribly regret it. I even got a quote for 4 brand new scopes from Keysight which I was about to get next week, but luckly I didnt pay for them yet and will not do so. I will not go on with Keysight, considering all that just happened. I really believe I should stick with Teltronix. Maybe they dont have all the fancy stuff Keysight has but I know that they are VERY, VERY RELIABLE over the years and customer support is much, much better from my experience.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 06:01:44 am
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 21, 2016, 03:46:45 amJust to complete the story, that is Brazil? And also the Keysight office/rep you dealt with was in Brazil?So no call from Keysight when they diagnosed the issue and forecasted an expensive repair. to ask whether you wanted to proceed with it?

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 10:14:11 am
content: Quote from: Bud on May 21, 2016, 01:02:09 amSheesh... sure, right... because this thread is all about you and your unhappiness with a particular brand.QuotePerhaps on your DSO. On my Rigol, the PLL works perfectly well enough to provide me with accurate, repeatable measurements that generate income for me. It's a pity your's does not.QuoteThe overwhelming majority of Rigol owners knew what they were spending money on and are clearly fine with their purchase. If they wanted to spend hundreds / thousands more on better designed, more tightly quality-controlled and assembled, better supported DSOs, they would do so.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 10:42:12 am
content: If the local support sucks then it is better to go for another brand.@bsgd: I'd try to find out whether Lecroy support is better.

author: switcher
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 11:04:12 am
content: Why are you talking to keysight ?Your contract is with Farnell, not Keysight.I suggest you talk to Farnell.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 11:48:39 am
content: maybe you are getting from source that collects rejects and pass it back to you, maybe you are the minority that are unfortunate, istr Rigol seemed to have this sort of issue, but majority of people have no issue... although what is certain, $2K repair bill is a rip off (same price as buying new unit). my usual respond will be, i'll keep the $2K bill for buying new other brand... let them keep the broken unit, and never ever going back to the brand... and warn people out lout like in this thread..

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 12:54:12 pm
content: Quote from: switcher on May 21, 2016, 11:04:12 amUnfortunately, that's not how it works in the America's it seems (not much in the way of consumer protections v. the UK).Most often, a buyer only has a short window of time to deal with the reseller (whatever their return period is per reseller's policy rather than law). After that, you have to deal with the manufacturer directly for warranty support.And since he lives in Brazil, I'd be surprised if Farnell would honor any warranty exchange in this case (i.e. no legal obligation to do so).At this point, his best bet is likely to contact Keysight's US Headquarters and see if he gets the right individual he can make a case to on the phone (i.e. CS agent overrides the expired warranty or at least offers a much lower repair cost).Personally, I'd also recommend checking into LeCroy's products and CS record in Brazil given the multiple poor experiences.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 01:10:19 pm
content: Quote from: bitwelder on May 21, 2016, 06:01:44 amNo call. They just sent me an e-mail asking for $2K to get it repaired.Quote from: nctnico on May 21, 2016, 10:42:12 amI never had to deal with LeCroy support (which is a great thing!) but will certainly look that up! Now I'll have to choose a new scope brand for my next purchases.Quote from: switcher on May 21, 2016, 11:04:12 amAs someone else mentioned, that's not how things work down here. Farnell would never help at all and to make things worse, Farnell Brazil closed down a year ago.Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 21, 2016, 11:48:39 amThat's EXACTLY what I'm doing. I would love to get some help from Keysight, or at least some understanding that what they are doing makes absolutely no sense. But since they dont seem to understand that, I'd like to get everyone to know about the situation, so they know what might happen to them if they ever buy Keysight stuff.I'm terribly surprised at how Keysight does not care at all about his customers, ate least down here. Really, I've never had such a bad customer support experience in my whole life!!Quote from: nanofrog on May 21, 2016, 12:54:12 pmYou are completely right! Maybe I should contact someone over in US? I do know my scope's warranty is expired, but I certainly expect Keysight to replace the defective unit they sent me while the warranty was about to expire. It even makes me wonder if they just sent me a bad unit since they knew my warranty was about to expire in a few days!!

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 01:17:31 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 21, 2016, 01:10:19 pmWho did you actually send the scope to/got the replacements from?Was it actually a Keysight facility or a 3rd party?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 01:20:12 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 20, 2016, 08:11:06 pmCheck out the consumer laws in your country. Here in the UK that sort of shit would be illegal. Irrespective of the warranty period, a piece of equipment should last for a reasonable length of time, given the price paid for it. It isn't acceptable to have a sort warranty period and not do anything if it fails, past the warranty.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 01:33:21 pm
content: I think you need to checks terms of warranty and your local regulations. For example in Poland in case a product is replaced with a new unit, the warranty starts from zero and lasts for 2 years. Check this in your local regulations, because not restarting the warranty when u in fact got a brand new equipment doesn't make sense.Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 01:35:42 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on May 21, 2016, 01:20:12 pmHero999, good idea, I will take to my lawyer about this and if possible, I may even take this to court, just because I dont want Keysight to keep doing this to other people. This is not a good company practice.Our consumer laws down here are pretty lame and I believe the warranty only extends 30 days in cases like mine, and I do think Keysight here is taking advantage of this to try to get money from its customers (and also make them terribly unhappy!!!!)Quote from: poorchava on May 21, 2016, 01:33:21 pmYes, I know its 2 years for Europe, but I suppose only 30 days down here! Anyway, I will talk to my laywer later today as I'll meet him anyway.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 01:36:50 pm
content: I have just sent an e-mail to Keysight US about my problem, using their general support page. If anyone has any contacts there or an e-mail address which might help me, please let me know!

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 01:47:34 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 21, 2016, 01:36:50 pmThat might work, but you'd be far better off to pick up the phone on Monday during their business hours and call them IMHO.It's just too easy to say NO in an email rather than speaking with an actual human (or better yet, in person when possible). You may not even get an answer via email (that's been my experience withAgilent/Keysight), but always got positive results via a phone call.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 01:52:45 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 21, 2016, 01:36:50 pmHere's the Daniel from Keysight that I mentioned earlier:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=114509

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 01:56:09 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on May 21, 2016, 01:47:34 pmProblem is that I'm in Brazil and international calls down here are VERY pricey, even using Skype. But I may call them anyway because yes, talking to a real person does make a difference.When you say that somentimes Keysight doesnt even care to reply to a customer's e-mail makes me even more worried about this company and my situation!!!!!

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 01:57:16 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on May 21, 2016, 01:52:45 pmThank you, I will try to contact him!!

author: Gary350z
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 02:33:20 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 21, 2016, 01:35:42 pmKeysight warranty is 5 years in US, 2 years in Europe, 30 days in Brazil. Very strange.Similar thing; Rigol support in US is good, but in other countries is crap. hmmmI wonder if the reason is the company or the country?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 03:11:23 pm
content: Quote from: Gary350z on May 21, 2016, 02:33:20 pmIt definitely could be the country. It helps to do some research into a dealer before buying from them. Recently I bought an RC controlled car for one of my kids. I ended up buying the car from Italy through Ebay because the local NL dealer for those particular cars had a long list of customer complaints on various fora.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 03:19:38 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 21, 2016, 01:56:09 pmWhat about using a calling card?Regarding the email, I suspect some get lost due to the shear volume that comes in, and mine was one that fell through the cracks (sent to a general address, not an individual). Made initial contact by phone since. Stuff sent to specific individuals' company account is a different matter however IME. Obviously YMMY, with your geographical location playing a considerable role in one's experience.And as a previous poster linked Daniel from Agilent's profile, you might try sending him a PM first to save on a phone call. Worth a shot at any rate.For the record, I'm not angry with them regarding my CS experiences or the equipment, as each case resulted in a positive outcome when it was concluded (what I did have to pay for was reasonably priced; totally my fault & knew it). But I've only dealt with the US office, and not since they split from Agilent. Which I suspect was the biggest factor in my experiences.Good luck, and I hope you get a satisfactory conclusion.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 04:02:55 pm
content: Hi folks,This just sounds wrong, let me dig into it on Monday when I'm back in the office and get things straightened out. A repair just shouldn't cost that much for a scope like this. In this case, I'll try to get the warranty extended.P.S. Warranty is 5yrs on 2k scopes worldwide, 3 yrs on other models.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 04:05:21 pm
content: Quote from: Gary350z on May 21, 2016, 02:33:20 pmI would say both. Brazil does have bad consumer protection laws and companies take advantage of that. What they dont realize is that by making customers unhappy they end up loosing market share and allowing space for other companies to grow and take their share. Thats whats happening here! Companies with great customer care here ALWAYS suceed while the others fail miserably.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 04:08:47 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight_DanielBogdanoff on May 21, 2016, 04:02:55 pmDaniel, thank you very much! I have just checked the Warranty Check Status page from Keysight and it clearly stated that mu warranty was only 3 years. Im replying from my iphone, but will post a picture of the page as soon as I get home.Anyway, thank you very much for looking into this!!

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 04:44:32 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight_DanielBogdanoff on May 21, 2016, 04:02:55 pmDaniel,Here it goes. I have attached both the quotation from Keysight and the Warranty Status for my DSOX2024A. If worldwide warranty is really 5 years, there is something wrong here, as the page clearly states warranty period was only 3 years.The repair quotation is in BRL - Brazilian Reais - and the conversion rate is around 3.50. Total was $7.031,54 BRL which corresponds to $2.009,01 USD.This is just a print screen of the final repair price as the document contains a lot of personal information. If you want, I can send the PDF to you.Thanks again!

author: botcrusher
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 05:05:04 pm
content: Welp, somone is going to be in trouble now... Go get em daniel!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 05:15:44 pm
content: Quote from: botcrusher on May 21, 2016, 05:05:04 pmI wonder how it would have turned out without this forum...

author: 1xrtt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 08:13:53 pm
content: bgsd,I don't think Brazilian consumer laws are that bad...Please look at this link:http://www.idec.org.br/consultas/codigo-de-defesa-do-consumidor/capitulo-iv,"SEÇÃO IV Da Decadência e da Prescrição", article 26. The law grants you a 90 day warranty, independent of the contractual warranty from the vendor. That means it sits on top of Keysight warranty.Although Daniel still needs to clear why you only have 3 years of contractual warranty, if worlwide it is 5 years, you can check and see if you still have this 90 day valid. The catch may be in this paragraph:" § 3° Tratando-se de vício oculto, o prazo decadencial inicia-se no momento em que ficar evidenciado o defeito."A free translation: If this is a hidden defect, the 90 day legal warranty starts to count at the moment the defect was perceived.I am not a lawyer, so I suggest you talk to one, and with the local Procon on your city.If all warranty options are now void, Keysight can only charge you if you agreed with the repair terms. If not, they must return you the device in the same condition.Also, note that the law specifies a maximum 30 day time to effectively repair the device. This is where a lawyer can help you. An interpretation may be that the original repair is not completed yet, as you received a replacement, and this replacement also failed. But again, don't take my word here, seek legal advice.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 08:27:02 pm
content: Quote from: botcrusher on May 21, 2016, 05:05:04 pmI dont wanna get anyone in trouble, but I DO WANT KEYSIGHT to learn how to corectly treat their customers.Quote from: Fungus on May 21, 2016, 05:15:44 pmWell, this is what I know: if this is the kind of support Im getting from Keysight, I will certainly tell all my engineer friends to stay away from this brand on their next purchases!I have worked for Fiat Chrysler for 5 years at the test equiment area and they will certainly hear about my case. One of my ex colleagues already know about it cause we met yesterday and I told him about the situation.Folks, I would like to add that Daniel was VERY KIND and sent me a PM asking for all the documents and e-mails exchanged with Keysight. He has all the information and now I will wait to see what happens. He seems really interested in helping me, and I really appreciate that.Quote from: 1xrtt on May 21, 2016, 08:13:53 pmI will talk to my lawyer today as coincidently its his birthday and there will be a party at his house. Anyway, I WAS NOT AWARE of that and I really appreciate pointing that out to me. From what I read, Keysight is refusing to repair the equipment but I guess the law is by my side and they may have to do it if I go to court, and I will certainly do so! This is great news, cause I believe I can take this further if needed be. Thanks 1xrtt!On monday I will go to Procon (our consumer regulation institution in Brazil) and talk to someone there as they may also give me some good advice on how to proceed with this.

author: botcrusher
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 08:31:13 pm
content: Personally, I'd wait until Daniel gets back to you before you get too gung ho on legal action....

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 08:39:28 pm
content: Quote from: botcrusher on May 21, 2016, 08:31:13 pmI agree. Give Keysight one more chance to make it right!

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 09:16:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 21, 2016, 08:39:28 pmHey sure! Sorry, maybe I wasnt clear. I plan on going to Procon on monday just to have some legal advice on what to do in case I need to, but I WILL NOT file any complaints before Keysight gives its final word. Daniel has been very kind and I do think everyone deserves a second chance.The kind of suppor I got from Keysight Brazil was pretty bad, but Daniel sounds very helpful.

author: skipjackrc4
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 03:53:52 am
content: My DSOX2024 just had the same problem. I'm anxiously watching this thread to see what the outcome is.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 04:29:11 am
content: $1900 sounds like the flat-rate replace-instead-of-repair option. Anyway, I'm sure Daniel will get to the bottom of it. He's proven quite adept at juggling tricky situations.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 04:49:35 am
content: Quote from: skipjackrc4 on May 22, 2016, 03:53:52 amFor all the Rigol nay sayers there are very few reports of actual faulty units, especially given the numbers of units sold to forum members.Again, it will be interesting to see how Keysight handle repairs, especially if the this PLL fault turns out to be a common age related problem.Will the days when manufacturers release full schematics and repair details of common faults return?

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 05:05:40 am
content: I thought that the cost for Skype calls was based on the destination country/network, not the originating country?At least my costs are always the same regardless if I'm in Thailand, Malaysia, UAE or Sweden when making an outbound call.

author: D3f1ant
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 06:37:25 am
content: Isnt equipment failure covered by your insurance?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 07:10:08 am
content: I will talk to my lawyer today as coincidently its his birthday and there will be a party at his house. Anyway, I WAS NOT AWARE of that and I really appreciate pointing that out to me. From what I read, Keysight is refusing to repair the equipment but I guess the law is by my side and they may have to do it if I go to court, and I will certainly do so! This is great news, cause I believe I can take this further if needed be. Thanks 1xrtt!On monday I will go to Procon (our consumer regulation institution in Brazil) and talk to someone there as they may also give me some good advice on how to proceed with this.Lawyers must be cheap in Brazil. $450/hr in California and I'm already in the hole for $10k and counting for a lawsuit I initiated (non consumer related).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 07:13:54 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on May 22, 2016, 04:29:11 amApparently not.Quote from: skipjackrc4 on May 22, 2016, 03:53:52 amYour thread need be linked in this one:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-dsox2024-won't-boot/In that thread member georgd wisely suggests the community goes about getting some ROM dumps in case there's some systemic failure of these models.New thread?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 08:11:48 am
content: QuoteIt reads there in global data sheet. This do not differentiate any country. It is factory warranty.Note this small text in page 20 bottom in data sheet.http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5990-6618EN.pdf?id=2002854What was warranty promise when originally purchased, it was perhaps different.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 08:46:06 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on May 21, 2016, 01:17:31 pmThat's worth researching a bit. Lots of manufacturers don't have an actual presence in certain countries. Instead, they have an agreement with a local distributor. Sometimes they're difficult to spot because they are authorized to use the brand name, acting like they are the real manufacturer.An example is Nikon, with an absolute disgrace of a distributor in Spain. So, if you purchase a pair of Nikon binoculars in the UK (which is part of the EU as well) you are covered by a ten year warranty. If you buy it in Spain, the standard two year warranty, with the added "plus" of an extremely awful service centres.Of course there are two approaches to warranty by manufacturers. Some use it as an excuse to decline responsability for manufacturing defects whenever they can. Others are honest and, despite an expired warranty, will fix an obvious manufacturing defect regardless and apologise regardless of the warranty status. I saw this in a case with Sony in the 90's, for example.Anyway, as Daniel from Keysight has asked for details I would let him work in peace. The fact that he is visible as a Keysight representative means that his presence is endorsed by the company itself, and that they value the direct interaction with their users in this forum.Unless something goes terribly wrong, I am sure that you can rest assured.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 10:55:43 am
content: Quote from: 1xrtt on May 21, 2016, 08:13:53 pmWhat relevance does consumer law have to the purchase of industrial equipment, especially when it has been used for industrial applications?

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 01:20:46 pm
content: Quote from: skipjackrc4 on May 22, 2016, 03:53:52 amReally? This actually worries me since this could be a somewhat common problem... anyone else whatching this with the same problem?Quote from: bitseeker on May 22, 2016, 04:29:11 amKeysight says they will not replace the instrument, but a 'main part inside which is defective'. I suppose they are refering to the main board.Quote from: matseng on May 22, 2016, 05:05:40 amI dont know about that, what I do know is they they somehow base the price on your profile, since Im always charged in BRL. Anyway, regardless of that, if needed, I WILL call them.Quote from: rf-loop on May 22, 2016, 08:11:48 amTo be honest, I do not remember what Farnell promised at the time...Quote from: D3f1ant on May 22, 2016, 06:37:25 amNo...Quote from: borjam on May 22, 2016, 08:46:06 amI do not know whether it is actually Keysight or some hard to distinguish 3rd party. They do have @keysight.com e-mail addresses and signatures and call themselves Keysight Brazil...Yes, I will let Daniel work and try to help. My expectations are pretty high that he might somehow help me in this case. At least someone heard about my case and thought it was not right. Keysight Brazil kept on saying there was nothing wrong and nothing they could do about, and thats what made me so angry!Quote from: coppice on May 22, 2016, 10:55:43 amWell I suppose here both of them are treated as consumers, no matter whether its a company or a person? Is it different in your country? I just looked and our law says: 'A consumer is both a person or a company who pays for goods to another company as the final recipient of that good'.So yes, I am a consumer in this case according to our law.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 01:28:18 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on May 22, 2016, 07:13:54 amThis is EXACTLY the first problem I had with my DSOX2024A when all this nightmare started!!! It wouldn't boot and went off to Keysight. Then I got a brand new replacement with the PLL error, which they also charged me around 2.000 dollars to fix, pretty much like what happened to the user in that thread you pointed me. This doesnt sound good to me, really...Now I see other people had the same problem, either the boot problem and the PLL problem! Oh NO again!!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 01:35:08 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 22, 2016, 01:20:46 pmThe use of equipment in business is very different from domestic use, and the laws in most countries accept that. A TV used 24 hours a day in a business display application is unlikely to get through the 5 years LG gave as the warranty for the same TV used in our lounge. They say the warranty relates to domestic use, and the laws in countries I have experienced accept that.

author: Robaroni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 01:42:41 pm
content: This is funny, I'm souring on Keysight also. I have several instruments from them and go back to the days of HP bullet proof instruments like the 34401A and before that.On another thread here I just complained about their new policy of not selling parts down to the component level. It's ridiculous to sell a complete display board for over $1k when the display cost is 1/10 of that.I'm starting to look into other instrument vendors now. We've always used Tek scopes and they have been exceptional with respect to durability, so has Fluke.WE have the 34465A 6-1/2 digit meter we bought a few months ago but now that we tried to buy the display for our 53132A and met with Keysight's, "you can just buy the display" we're leery. Too bad it's a superb instrument.Hey lots of fish in the sea and I'm liking what I see from MTI and R & S these days.Rob

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 01:50:08 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 22, 2016, 01:35:08 pmWell Im sure we do not discern that here. If a TV comes with a 5 years warranty and a company has a problem with it during this 5 year peiord, LG has to replac that. They do not say the warranty is only valid if the TV is used for no more than 1 hour a day...Anyway, this scope was barely used as it was kept as a backup. The first time it went for repair it had less than 20 hours of use and the second time, less than 10 hours.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 01:54:47 pm
content: Quote from: Robaroni on May 22, 2016, 01:42:41 pmI still have lots of HP era test equipment and they are flawless. I even have tube test equipment from HP which still work and are still within spec after 60 years!!!!I know Tektronix scopes are a bit outdated spec wise and do not have the newer functionality Keysight has, but they are built to last a lifetime. Believe it or not, I still have an original Tektronix 455 which works perfectly fine.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 02:11:42 pm
content: Is part of this problem just that things are not made as well as they used to - no matter who manufactures them? Seriously, can you say any manufacturer regardless of cost can produce a product today that has the same longevity of many of the instruments that did well from decades ago. Seems to me that so many companies have hidden behind their "great" names, but have cheapened their products. If they fall short in the quality/reliability department, certainly the pricier ones need to make up for it in the warranty/repair department. When that starts to slip too you have to wonder if they were worth their coin in the first place.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 02:25:41 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on May 22, 2016, 02:11:42 pmIn the 1970s a basic 200MHz scope from HP or Tek cost an entire year's salary. If enough people were happy to pay an entire years salary for one today, I'm sure Keysight could make an extremely robust basic 200MHz scope.The 70s scopes failed quite frequently, and only had a 90 days warranty. They were very repairable, which is why quite a few are still running today, but you did end up with a lot of repairs you needed to pay for.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 02:32:37 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 22, 2016, 01:20:46 pmImho, It is not what Farnell promise. It is what Agilent (Keysight) promise.Keysight (agilent) is responsible about what they promise. (it is manufacturer global promise stated in product data sheet and they are responsible what they promise. Not Farnell. Farnell is responsible if they promise something more but farnell can not reduce what manufacturer promise or if can then all is totally tumbled.)

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 02:41:12 pm
content: Sad to hear your bad experience with Keysight, they've been nothing but fantastic to me (and I am currently saving some money to get a Keysight handheld scope).I hope you'll get this sorted.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 02:48:04 pm
content: I don't think I've ever had anyone, ever, just repair something without contacting me with an estimate first. This is good when it's close to the replacement value, but can be annoying when it's a $5 part. After all, when hiring someone to perform service the price is part of the agreement; if we didn't have an agreement I'd flat out refuse to pay it. By corollary, nobody in their right mind starts work until the terms are settled.

author: Robaroni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 03:01:16 pm
content: We used Tek scopes extensively through all my career going back to the late 60's. The stuff was just indestructible! I still have a 465B kicking around here. So I buy Tek. Our 2024B might be slow bringing up bus translations but it always works, so did the digital Tek before it.I thought Keysight claimed some crazy MTBF for their scopes?I have to say we really love the 34465 meter and we still have an 33220 AWG that hasn't given us trouble but it's from the Agilent days.When did HP go from HP to Agilent to Keysight? I can't keep track anymore!Rob

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 03:04:16 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on May 22, 2016, 02:11:42 pmIMHO the older test equipment is just as prone to failure as more recent test equipment. The major difference is that the more modern test equipment consists of far fewer components and doesn't run so hot so there is actually a lot less which can go wrong. You could argue a BGA is hard to replace but those kind of components don't fail. It is still power electronics and electrolytics which are the weak points at the component level. Newer equipment does add firmware problems to the equation.

author: Robaroni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 03:19:02 pm
content: I'm not sure, linear supplies weren't that bad, they used less parts than SMPS and all those years of working out SMPS capacitance, and my favorite problem cap the tantalum. If you just go from the parts count, the more parts, the greater chance of failure - SMPS loses.We went to SMPS, not because it was better but because it was cheaper. Give me a three terminal regulator in a linear supply, easy to fix, less parts and pretty robust.Rob

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 03:34:25 pm
content: Quote from: Robaroni on May 22, 2016, 03:19:02 pmLinear supplies are fine if you can tolerate the size, weight, heat and loss of efficiency.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 03:43:04 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 22, 2016, 03:34:25 pmWhat about all the high-voltage stuff in devices with CRTs? Plenty of things to fail there.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 03:58:07 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 22, 2016, 02:25:41 pmIf you compare to today's prices, you need to adjust to bandwidth inflation.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 04:01:56 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on May 22, 2016, 02:11:42 pmI agree.Quote from: bson on May 22, 2016, 02:48:04 pmJust to make it clear, they did not fix the equipment yet, as far as I am aware. They just sent me a high price to fix something that they didnt fix while still under warranty.Quote from: nctnico on May 22, 2016, 03:04:16 pmEven though my engineer side tends to agree with that, my experience tells me something different. And I'm not just talking about test equipment, but stuff in general. My 'new' refrigerator fails every two years, while we still have a very old one in a country house thats been running fine for 30+ years. This is just one example but I have dozens of others like this one.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 04:09:42 pm
content: Nowadays it is just easier to buy cheap crap and yes some good brands entered into the race towards the bottom of the barrel and start selling crap but with some care you can still buy decent quality products (=lasts long with minor repairs due to wear).My family has a long history of buying Miele washing machines so looking back at 50 to 60 years their washing machines do fail at different points over the various models but even the modern ones easely last 20 to 25 years with heavy use .

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 04:15:43 pm
content: At school we have many Agilent 33220A AWGs and most of them have an erratic rotary encoder after 7 years or so.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 04:19:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 22, 2016, 04:09:42 pmWe dont have Miele hereAnyway, I guess in the old days if something failed, you could just buy the part that failed and easily repair de equipment. Nowadays you have to spend $500 on a board because of a single failed component that is hidden below 1 inch of epoxy. This is waht happened to my last washing machine and its probably whats going on with my Keysight Oscilloscope.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 04:34:42 pm
content: Quote from: Robaroni on May 22, 2016, 03:01:16 pmThey claim 250000 hours for DSOX3000T series.http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-0140EN.pdf?id=2545408See page 36.

author: skipjackrc4
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 05:24:20 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on May 22, 2016, 04:34:42 pmWell, that was off by about 4 orders of magnitude according to the OP...

author: skipjackrc4
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 05:33:16 pm
content: There is a thread on the Keysight forums that mentions a potential fix for scopes with firmware >=2.39:https://community.keysight.com/thread/24094?q=bootApparently, if you have the latest firmware and you get the blank screen of death, the scope may allow you to reload the firmware from USB. My scope apparently has an earlier firmware revision (I don't remember what it is), so that wasn't an option. Going from the Keysight forum thread, I recommend that everyone update their firmware to the latest version NOW so that you can potentially avoid having to send the scope to the manufacturer.Since it's evidently possible to reload the firmware, it doesn't appear to be a hardware problem (at least not a permanent one). Perhaps some type of EM/power line susceptibility that corrupts the firmware?

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 05:44:21 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 22, 2016, 03:04:16 pmDo you honestly believe this? The number of man-hours/cost to design, test, manufacture, and market a device nowadays is exponentially lower than it was 40 years ago. Concepts like built-in obsolescence, product lines, market segmentation, etc, etc, developed hand-in-hand with solid-state devices over the last half-century. Because of these things, most manufacturers won't spend too much time thinking about - let alone caring about - how long things last outside of the warranty period + whatever they feel is a minimum. Anecdotally, I rarely had equipment (or other device) failure happen 40 years ago, but I've seen it happen more and more often as the decades have passed (albeit, granted, with less and less disruption - i.e. it's cheaper and faster to replace things now).QuoteThis is a bad comparison since washing machines are still - at their basic level - simple, heavy-duty mechanical devices. Ironically, even though nowadays most electronic-device manufacturers tend to be reluctant to part with schematics, etc, the advent of the Internet has made it easier to get your hands on service manuals for things like washing machines, etc. I've had the same Zanussi washer and dryer for over 25 years, and with the service manuals have managed to keep them running perfectly with the occasional replaced condensator, drain pump, belt, etc.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 06:25:48 pm
content: Quote from: skipjackrc4 on May 22, 2016, 05:24:20 pmYes, off by 4 orders of magnitude. Twice.Quote from: skipjackrc4 on May 22, 2016, 05:33:16 pmThis is good (and bad) to know. Why does the firmware gets corrupted?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 07:09:45 pm
content: I'm wondering: does the scope power on at all (some lights go on) or is it doing nothing. If it is doing nothing it could be a simple problem in the power supply.

author: skipjackrc4
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 07:14:05 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 22, 2016, 07:09:45 pmThe scope's lights and fan come on, so the power supply at least isn't completely dead (I don't know about all the voltage rails, and I'm not going to open it up to check while it's under warranty).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 08:56:47 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 22, 2016, 07:09:45 pmRTFMthread.PLL error

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 09:09:13 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on May 22, 2016, 08:56:47 pmThe first scope didn't turn on and now there is someone else with the same symptoms and I (vaguely) recall someone else with a piece of equipment from Keysight having firmware issues which prevented it from booting. I agree the PLL error is something different and it may well be the OP got a replacement from the rejects shelve indeed.

author: D3f1ant
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 09:57:41 pm
content: What pisses me off with keysight gear in my country is the insane markup the local agent puts on it.

author: Robaroni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 10:33:06 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 22, 2016, 03:34:25 pmWe're talking about endurance and lots of power supplies still use linear power for low noise and robustness.Rob

author: Robaroni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 10:35:20 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on May 22, 2016, 04:15:43 pmWhen they were Agilent I replaced mine for a couple of bucks each and I think they sent them to me for free. It must cost a lot to call yourself Keysight!Rob

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 11:54:41 pm
content: Quote from: D3f1ant on May 22, 2016, 09:57:41 pmYeah, I used to think the same until I started importing Siglent.If there's not a lot of stock turnover and the not stocked requested models need be indented thehiddencosts that the reseller has jumps significantly and erodes their profitability.Add to that our wildly fluctuating exchange rate and local taxes of 15% and we look with envy at the pricing in especially the US market. Even attempts to source direct from the US (and most other places) lumber us with the same currency exchange problems not to mention the 15% GST for all imports into NZ over US$300 value, freight included!In attempts to offerfairpricing I try to work with international RRP's plus local taxes and just suck up most of the hidden cost but that's not easy to do with a large company with much higher operating costs and overheads.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 02:34:46 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 22, 2016, 09:09:13 pmMy first unit would not turn on: the fan did come on and the button lights started to blink in an infinite cycle. The screen never came on.My second unit turns on fine but after 2 hours exihibited a PLL error on the screen. All channels became very noisy and a message pops p saying the unit found a PLL hardware error and must be sent for repair. After a few power cycles the error started to appear much faster and then when the unit was sent to Keysight it only took a few minutes after power on for the error message to appear.I dont wanna judge Keysight like this, but I'm not happy at all getting a defective replacement unit since they knew my warranty was just about to expire (they even told me how lucky I was to find a defect with so little time for the warranty to expire) and then sent me a replacement unit with a pretty hard to diagnose problem, since the oscilloscope had to be left on for hours before anything went wrong.I really hope I'm not dealing with Keysight as someone suggested, but some stupid 3rd party company wich is not up to Keysight standards. Anyway, if this is the case, Keysight should never let them use their logo and call themselves 'Keysight Brazil'. If I'm actually dealing with Keysight, I must confess Im completely dissapointed by their service and lack of competence and understanding.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 02:46:17 am
content: Quote from: marmad on May 22, 2016, 05:44:21 pmYep, I honestly believe this. In the 70s and 80s HP and Tek equipment had to be repaired a lot. It was so expensive that it HAD to be built to be highly repairable. Since they were basically defence companies at the time, they had to provide all the documentation and components needed for their customers to repair equipment in house, beyond the 90 days warranty. Now that they supply a lot more equipment to commercial users than defence ones they can keep most repairs in house, and not reveal too much information. When things go wrong now the consequences are much greater, but the frequency of failures is low these days.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 12:14:26 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 23, 2016, 02:46:17 amSorry, I just don't agree. And I'm afraid I'd have to see actual stats comparing failure/breakdown rates over the years to be convinced otherwise. I have HP and Tek equipment (as well as more common equipment) from the '70s and early '80s which continues to function perfectly... but nothing from the '90s.QuoteNo, they weren't. If you mean they sold a lot of equipment to the military, of course they did (although often it was special, rad-hardened versions of models), but this has nothing to do with providing documentation. I have a number of devices from the period (synthesizers, tape recorders, amplifiers, etc) from other companies that provided the exact same level of documentation.QuoteAgain, nothing to do with this - it's SOP across most companies that build electronic devices.

author: Sbampato12
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 12:42:59 pm
content: In brazil Keysight has a office (and a cal lab) in Barueri (Sao Paulo). I don't thing this is a third part.Last year I was there to visit their office. And always I needed replacement parts they were great with me. But I never needed warranty services, so I can't speak about that.Maybe could be interesting to buy a Warranty after my one expires..... (I have a 2000x and a 3000x, if the 2000x costs that much, I prefer do not think about the 3000x....)

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 12:44:00 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 23, 2016, 12:31:37 pmI could consider that, IF it doesnt cost me more than a brand new equipment AND if Keysight really understands my problem and shows some interest in helping me. Otherwise, I just don't feel confident enough to have them as my main oscilloscope supplier, even though I already have a few units (including the one we're talking about here) which I cant take back and will have to deal with them if needed. You see, I really need reliability and I don't have the time to spend hours and hours on the phone and e-mail, just to get something simple sorted out. And this is whats going on right now... and even after so many hours, nothing was sorted with Keysight Brazil. All I got was an insane repair price and a message 'pay that or keep it defective'.They even tried to charge me a technical evaluation fee of ~$150 dollars (Daniel also got this by e-mail), which made so pissed that they just decided to do me a 'favor' and not charge me that. Ridiculous! I don't need favors from Keysight, I just need to get some good service from what I thought was a reputable company.

author: Robaroni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 12:45:55 pm
content: I remember working with Tex and HP in the late 60's and 70's. Most of the failures were mechanical if I remember. Scratchy pots and switches and such. Most times it didn't cripple the instrument. Even the old nixie tube counters would lose a segment or a digit would flash but you worked around it.Things today have gotten a lot more complex and the more complex the greater chance of failures. So maybe if we made yesterdays equipment today and substituted solid state for the tubes, got rid of the pots and didn't use any uC's there wouldn't be some of the failures we see. But who wants to back to those instruments? Heck, I wouldn't even trade my new Keysight bench meter for the venerable 34401A.Look at the past. VCR belts, tape decks, vacuum tubes. We dumped all that stuff because it was constantly in repair. I was a kid in the mid 60's working in a TV repair shop ( we had those things then!). In the late 60's we seemed to replace every selenium rectifier with silicon diodes, paper caps constantly leaked and DC would get to the grid of the next tube in the chain and tubes did go bad.... often!Several years ago I was selling small digital tachometer kits. I must have sold hundreds with not one failure.Software bugs are just what we have to accept for the great instruments we have today in my view. I wouldn't give up my uC's for a second!Rob

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 12:47:00 pm
content: Quote from: Sbampato12 on May 23, 2016, 12:42:59 pmThats bad news, really bad. That's exactly the office I'm dealing with and I really expected them to be some 3rd party company which would certainly help me understand such a poor service. Not good.

author: Robaroni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 12:48:02 pm
content: Oh wait! Some knuckleheads actually do want to go back to the past.... they call them audiophiles!Rob

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 12:55:39 pm
content: Am I missing something here? Didn't this unit item fail outside of the warranty period?It sucks that the fault wasn't found until the warranty expired, but an expiration date is just that. They sell extended warranties, and you chose to save a little money rather that buy insurance, but now that the risk failed to pay off you want Keysight to eat it? If they don't give you "bonus free extended warranty coverage" they are a bad company? That sounds like very entitled attitude.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 01:02:00 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 23, 2016, 12:55:39 pmYes it did. But I got a bad replacement unit from them right when the warranty was about to expire AND they wanna charge me more than 2.000 dollars to repair the defective unit they sent me when it had less than 10 hours of use. It just doesnt sound logical. I even expected to pay someting, but not 2k.I never asked for a bonus extended warranty, please dont say things I have never said. Read the post.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 01:06:46 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 23, 2016, 12:47:00 pmJust wait and decide. Even if they use the name it can be a local company with an exclusive distribution agreement.But given the reports of malfunctioning scopes it's clear that there's some isssue they must address. I remember the old bad capacitors issue, which was even worse for idle equipment, which was a real disaster for shops with back up equipment sitting idle. When the main equipment broke, they promptly replaced it with, sadly, non-functional backup units.Apart from a good experience I had with Sony in 90's, recently I had an atrocious experience with a well known German manufacturer of aquarium equipment (Tunze). One of my movement pumps stopped working a month or two after the warranty expired. As I didn't have any electrical problems (I know, and I had two identical units, just one broke) they claimed that they wouldn't consider warranty service and that probably a snail had gotten stuck, blocking the pump. I had checked it thoroughly and there was no mechanical trouble. Besides, they proudly state that they have an effective electronic protection which, with a consumption of less than 20 W, is not exactly rocket science. So, in case a snail caused trouble, the protection didn't work at all.In my case, the local office (a distributor) refused to do anything, and when I contacted the manufacturer directly, the answer was similar, followed by an angry message from the Spanish distributor. So I told them to dispose of the broken pump and of course the brand is in a proud position in my black list.The local office is authorized to refer to themselves as Tunze Spain, and it's a distributor with an agreement. Although in this case the "mothership" was similarly unreliable.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 01:13:14 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 23, 2016, 12:55:39 pmThere is a difference between an accident and something breaking because of a defect. A company that sticks to a warranty expiration to refuse covering a manufacturing defect is, in my book, dishonest. It can be legal, but there are plenty of ways to be dishonest while complying with the law.In my case with the aquarium pump, I was told that the failure was extremely rare. I have designed and sold products, and a report of a very rare failure would immediately compel me to try and find out what happened. You never know if you are facing a rare single part failure or a canary warning you of impending doom. And in the latter case I would prefer to know and be prepared. And if the fault was mine, I would prefer a satisfied customer. Butthat's me of course.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 01:13:46 pm
content: Quote from: marmad on May 23, 2016, 12:14:26 pmWhen the cold war ended Tek and HP nearly collapsed. HP recovered, but Tek never really did. That is the extent to which they were defence focussed companies. If you supply to the actual military or their defence contractors you have to supply everything needed for in house support. Sure, a lot more consumer equipment had good documentation back then. A few companies, like Philips were extremely good for making both extensive documentation and specialist parts easily available. It was patchy though. For companies relying on defence sales there was no choice.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 01:22:29 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 23, 2016, 01:13:46 pmAre you talking about the '90s now? You seem to be mixing different standards and time periods up. I don't know your background, but I lived and worked in L.A. during the late '70s and mid '80s - sometimes doing sub-contracted work forrealdefense companies like Lockheed - so again, no, HP and Tek were not "basically defence companies" in the '70s and '80s.

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 01:29:08 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on May 23, 2016, 01:13:14 pmWarranties don't cover accidents, they cover manufacturing defects. Once the warranty period has ended why would a company be obligated to provide a replacement? This argument that it only had "ten hours of use" is irrelevant. The warranty period is a fixed period of time, not hours of use. You could buy a new unit, leave it on a shelf and never turn it on, and upon discovering it's defective after the warranty period expires is not the manufacturers responsibility.You buy an extended warranty and hope you never need to use it. This argument that Keysight has somehow wronged the consumer here is childish.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 01:33:51 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 23, 2016, 01:29:08 pmAs I said, I've seen several examples of companies covering for a manufacturing defectafter the warranty had expired. That's what Sony did in the case I mention, for example. They had absolutely no legal requirement to do so. They opened the unit and, whoops, there was an obvious manufacturing defect, so they repaired it and they refused to charge.And I'm talking about a manufacturing defect, not accidental damage of course. That's what thet said when they called. I did not expect it. That's not something you expect. But you can imagine that it had a strong positive effect on my trust as a customer.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 01:39:41 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on May 23, 2016, 01:33:51 pmExactly.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 01:41:13 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 23, 2016, 01:29:08 pmNot entirely.If the boot # count was very low at failure a considerate manufacturer might choose to replace it....especially if the customer was considering further purchases.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 01:44:55 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 23, 2016, 01:29:08 pmAND, according to the Brazilian law, this could be considered a 'hidden manufacturing defect', so they should replace it anyway, even if the initial warranty period has expired, thats what may lawyer said (and someone here pointed out), but I'm seeking some more specialized legal advice today.Anyway, I'm not doing anything before Daniel gets back to me, as I do believe he's really willing to help and to be honest Id rather have this solved peacefully.

author: Sbampato12
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 01:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 23, 2016, 01:29:08 pmThe only point that makes me think twice, is the price they sent to the OP. About the fact of the problems get after warranty, I think like you. Theres nothing wrong. But how can a service cost more than a new unit. On other hand, we are talking about brazil, where everything goes backwards, and this isn't all strange for me.The great point, I will look foward to make Maintenance Agreement for my two scopes when the warranty expires. For sure.Glad they will expire about 2018Edited to correct the text (was inside quote)

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 04:29:03 pm
content: Ok, I just skimmed the last few pages since Saturday and I'm in contact with our service teams.Regarding warranty length, it was changed from 3 years up to 5 years just a couple years ago. So, this scope was likely purchased by Farnell before that change.For this situation, I'm working with the team to get everything covered by us. I don't see any reason that this won't happen, but I haven't gotten final confirmation yet.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 04:31:40 pm
content: Thank you very much Daniel!

author: stmdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 04:33:28 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight_DanielBogdanoff on May 23, 2016, 04:29:03 pmDaniel comes through, once again!

author: timgiles
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 04:56:05 pm
content: I hope the OP changes the title of the post. Fully understand (following it from his initial post) why he felt so angry, I sure would too. But good customer service, even if it is late coming, deserves fair treatment.Glad everything is coming together for you.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 05:12:41 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 23, 2016, 01:29:08 pmYou'd be wrong in the EU, we have a remedy in law if a device fails outside warranty but within a reasonably expected lifetime.I would suggest that five years plus isn't an unreasonable time for a $2000+ scope to work.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 05:29:41 pm
content: Quote from: timgiles on May 23, 2016, 04:56:05 pmSure. But for now I'll wait since nothing has changed yet. So far what I have noticed is that Keysight US has been VERY helpful and at least took some time to understand my situation, while Keysight Brazil wont even care to listen to my complaints.

author: botcrusher
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 06:17:01 pm
content: Perhaps the guys in Brazil are jaded from fixing countless scopes plugged into the wrong voltage

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 06:50:49 pm
content: Many Keysight (or HP, Agilent) scopes probably work with 100V to 240V. My DSOX2002A does so.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 07:18:21 pm
content: Yep, all the current InfiniiVision scopes come with the universal power supply. So you just need your local cable (comes with the scope, too).

author: LA7SJA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 07:42:45 pm
content: Quote from: botcrusher on May 23, 2016, 06:17:01 pmI sure hope you don't mean "The Boys from Brazil"Johan-Fredrik

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 07:59:13 pm
content: All,When talking about Keysight's repair policies, please keep in mind that they are now having to go it alone and that all aspects of the business were likely re-evaluated with respect to whether or not they were a revenue source or sink. I'm not apologizing for these ridiculous (in my opinion) repair costs, but that's likely the reason. So, take it easy on Daniel.Daniel,I know this isn't your wheelhouse, but if you have the opportunity to direct KS policy makers to threads like these - I think that they might realize that serviceability is part of the value equation when users buy equipment. It's an intangible that should be factored in when evaluating the profitability of the parts and service side.It would be nice to see a modification to KS's policy on part sales where a user could choose to void their warranty in exchange for the ability to purchase parts.Also, there are a large number of users that seem unaware of the ability to purchase service agreements.FWIW...

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 08:53:34 pm
content: If the scope was out of warranty, what would justify such a repair cost? Mainboard change?Alexander.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 10:00:18 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on May 23, 2016, 08:53:34 pmThis story started "wierd" with someone claiming that the unit was "impossible to repair".I don't understand "impossible" and I understand "impossible to repair" even less.So the guy was sent a replacement scope. I don't know for sure if it was a brand new scope, but if it was, it seems to me the warranty should have reset and started again the moment he was sent the new scope. Since the "new" scope could have it's own , new, different "defects covered under warranty.The ridicilous part of keeping a unit on a shelf, and not being able to rutrn on "because it sat unused" ...is also strange and bizzare. What if you bought two in order to have one as a backup? Use it or lose it?Electronic devices with a shelf life like potato chips?C'mon!!!

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 10:10:22 pm
content: Quote from: DimitriP on May 23, 2016, 10:00:18 pmActually Keysight's technical repair team claimed the Oscilloscope was unrepairable. Daniel has the e-mails in which Keysight claimed this.Keysight said the replacement was a brand new scope, never used or refurbished. The warranty did not restart as our laws around here do not demand that, so it would only happen if Keysight wanted to do that by its own.I do not know if the scope failed because it was left unused for a long time, but we have a coincidence here, since two different scopes in two different parts of the world died after beeing left off for some time. Mine was working perfectly fine when put in storage and it was a backup unit. When they needed it, it simply refused to boot on the first power on and was sent to Keysight.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 10:12:06 pm
content: Without diving into our repair strategies for different products, sometimes it makes more sense financially to just do a replacement. Then, sometimes the boards get sent for re-work at the factory instead of at a service center.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 02:37:08 am
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on May 23, 2016, 07:59:13 pmYeah, I'd like to get clarification on parts sales policies because I've heard mixed results from forum members.@Daniel: Could you or another KS person reply to the thread below that I started regarding parts?What's the skinny on purchasing parts from Keysight?

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 07:25:29 am
content: Quote from: timgiles on May 23, 2016, 04:56:05 pmSo what happens when this fixed one craps out? Seems like pretty shitty gear to me if it sits on the shelf until you need it and won't work when you want it to.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 07:46:39 am
content: Out of professional interest, I'd love to know what kind of defect a product could possibly have which would cause it to stop working when left unused - assuming that the product is being stored in reasonably benign environmental conditions.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 07:56:25 am
content: Same here, does it have a supercap?

author: Lunasix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 07:56:37 am
content: These brands are able to pay much money for advertising but refuse to do a commercial effort when a customer, who as already paid, as a problem which could be solved at a ridiculous cost by the company. I was thinking to buy, for my work, a Keysight scope (they are used to buy Tektronix, nobody is perfect...), but now, I don't know anymmore.

author: stmdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 07:57:44 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on May 24, 2016, 07:46:39 amI'm curious as well. RTC battery runs out? Easily forgotten to test when developing the product.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 08:12:45 am
content: Quote from: stmdude on May 24, 2016, 07:57:44 amRTC batteries usually run for the life of the equipment. If something only fails after months of disuse its more likely to be a supercap discharging.

author: Augustus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 08:17:23 am
content: I've never noticed any supercap on Dave's teardowns of these scopes. Only one standard CR2032 lithium coin cell, as far as I remember...

author: hs3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 08:28:40 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on May 24, 2016, 07:46:39 amCould there be some kind data retention issue with NAND flash? Especially if there isn't sufficient error correction implemented which I have understood to be quite important with NAND.Haven't there been some talk about SSDs and data retention issues if left unpowered for long times? I'm not really familiar with the facts but just something I remember being mentioned.EDIT:I looked into this a bit and found this document from Dell:http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/products/pvaul/en/Solid-State-Drive-FAQ-us.pdfOn page 6 it has this:I'm sure those data retention times are not the complete truth but at least it suggests that when NAND flash is used it can be an issue and error correction is important.But do these scopes use NAND for storing the firmware?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 08:44:08 am
content: Quote from: DimitriP on May 23, 2016, 10:00:18 pmReset the warranty? After scope was in the hands of the customer few years already. Sorry, but if things worked like this, I could get a new device every few years for freeendlessly. Joust break something stealthily, and here you go.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 09:43:16 am
content: Quote from: hs3 on May 24, 2016, 08:28:40 amWoah! That little bombshell probably deserves a new thread of its own.Quote from: hs3 on May 24, 2016, 08:28:40 amThe other thread says "yes":https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-dsox2024-won't-boot/msg947382/#msg947382

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 09:53:30 am
content: It's quite hard to design anything with a supercap to run for more than a few weeks between charges. Bigger caps tend to have a higher self-discharge rate too, so although a bigger cap can supply a larger current for a given period, they're unlikely to be able to supply any given load for a much longer period.Besides, if that were the case, every scope would fail after a few weeks' disuse, and I know first hand that they don't.I'm going with the NAND data retention idea, which would tie up with the relatively recent - if vague - firmware updates we've seen.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 09:56:01 am
content: Quote from: hs3 on May 24, 2016, 08:28:40 amThat is only valid for smallest lithography (largest size per die) processes available. Small size NAND like in oscilloscopes have much longer data retention. From personal experience, I have 64GB SD memory card which consistently corrupts the data which is older than 1.5 years.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 10:25:45 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on May 24, 2016, 09:53:30 amThe six 2600F 2.5V boostcaps in my car (instead of a car battery) disagree with youThey tend to last ~2 months before the voltage is too low to start the car.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 10:41:35 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 24, 2016, 05:20:13 amOne more 'coincidence'... I do think this sounds like a NAND data retention problem.Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on May 24, 2016, 07:25:29 amWhat worries me the most is that I have another DSOX2024A with an expired warranty too. You know when you get that awful feeling that something might fail anytime? I'm starting to worry about that, especially considering the high repair prices. If they do fail, it's the end of line, I will not repair them and will have to get a new unit. Right now I'm considering to leave a Tektronix scope as backup and putting my Keysight's to use so they dont stay off for long.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 10:44:23 am
content: Indeed, it does look more like a data retention issue than a supercap/voltaic cell drainage issue.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 10:46:40 am
content: Quote from: hs3 on May 24, 2016, 08:28:40 amWAIT. Some NAND only retain data for 3 months?? I had no idea about that. This is awful!! I have a laptop in my company running a Sandisk SSD and its rarely used, only for field work. I cant believe those big brands would ever release in the market a storage device with such a short data retention time!! I'll do some research straight away as this definitely worries me.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 10:48:14 am
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 24, 2016, 10:41:35 amThat won't help you a tiny bit. This might help only with things like SSD because they rewrite themselves once in a while. Otherwise be it powered or not, doesn't make any difference at all.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 10:58:27 am
content: Even the datasheet for my Samsung 840 Pro SSD says "assumes the 3-month industry standard data retention time". Ironically I'm on my first day of a 3-month vacation, I hope all my SSDs will be fine when I get back (950 Pro PCIe M.2, 850 Pro, 840 Pro, 850 Evo).

author: Augustus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 10:59:08 am
content: You could do a firmware "maintenance" update every 6 months, to rewrite the NAND

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 11:01:13 am
content: Quote from: wraper on May 24, 2016, 10:48:14 amSo you are saying all Keysight DSOX series scopes will have a very short life, no matter what?

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 11:02:16 am
content: Quote from: Augustus on May 24, 2016, 10:59:08 amThis thing should rewrite itself every day if it cant retain data for 3 years!

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 11:12:19 am
content: Quote from: Psi on May 24, 2016, 10:25:45 amWell, OK, but it's still the same order of magnitude. Do you know if that limitation is due to the self discharge of the caps, or is there a non-trivial drain through the car's electrical system?

author: Sbampato12
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 11:29:41 am
content: In my work, we have a DSOX2002A in my lab, a DSOX2014A in front lab and a MSOX2014A upstairs.The MSOX have a little to no use (don't ask...) and after a while without being powered it had to go to repair at Keysight (was inside the warranty)... This could mean something.I wonder what others gears could have this question about memory getting lost.Other thing, I can't imagine to invest that much of money to just turn on once or twice a year... But this could be much more common than I think...

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 11:36:03 am
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on May 24, 2016, 10:58:27 amI wouldn't worry,you can just restore your backups.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 11:40:25 am
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 24, 2016, 11:02:16 amIt would have to be switched on to be able to do that to itself.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 11:46:55 am
content: Quote from: Sbampato12 on May 24, 2016, 11:29:41 amThe more obscure, high-performance equipment tends to bought in single-units, even in larger organizations. Often there is a specific need at a specific time - therefore, once that aspect of the project is complete, the equipment goes back to general storage until the need comes up again.Perhaps this applies for things like current shunts, isolated probes, etc. I know that a lot of equipment gets stored for a year or two.From here:http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ForewordtoPPM.htmlThis is a very interesting perspective:https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/larryosterman/2004/03/30/one-in-a-million-is-next-tuesday/

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 11:57:03 am
content: Quote from: 3db on May 24, 2016, 11:36:03 amWho even keeps backups! O0

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 11:57:59 am
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 24, 2016, 10:41:35 amThat explains the error quite well. I'd guess we'll see some preventive maintenance hint about powering the scope every month for an hour or soAnyway, this is something we have to address in our designs when using NAND flash.

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 12:06:41 pm
content: @TheAmmoniacal

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 12:08:46 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 24, 2016, 11:01:13 amcan you read:Quote from: wraper on May 24, 2016, 09:56:01 amDon't put small capacity SLC and MLC NAND in the same bin as something like 64 gigabyte per chip MLC and especially TLC

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 12:09:39 pm
content: The chart says "at" the P/E cycles. Is the retention better when there have been minimal P/E cycles?

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 12:26:35 pm
content: Quote from: Sbampato12 on May 24, 2016, 11:29:41 amAt least here in my case, this is a backup unit. Not having a scope could cost me MUCH more than keeping a spare, as long as it doesnt fail everytime I try to use it!

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 12:29:15 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 24, 2016, 11:40:25 amThis could be quite easy. I just saw a video about free energy on youtube! Keysight could take advantage of that for this kind of maintenance

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 12:35:09 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 24, 2016, 12:08:46 pmI was just kidding my friend! At least I hope so!But I do confess I'm quite worried about this issue. I'm starting to look at my Keysight scopes as a time bomb which will stop working anytime. This is a very serious issue and I think these problemas are just starting to appear as this units are starting to age. I bought mine just a year after they were released so I guess I was an early adopter!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 12:40:36 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 24, 2016, 12:35:09 pmThey repair boot problem for free even after warranty end. Also they suggest updating the firmware because it is more robust and allows firmware recovery if the issue happens. Your second problem most likely is what the scope has shown. PLL fail (likely easy to repair yourself), especially considering you had a problem with waveform displayed.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 12:48:21 pm
content: Actually I do think powering up from time to time could help if Keysight uses some rewrite tecniques to stay away from data retention errors. But I dont know if they do it or how they do it.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 12:50:21 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 24, 2016, 12:48:21 pmVERY unlikely.

author: hibone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 12:59:45 pm
content: Thank for the thread, I read it out of curiosity, but I never expected to find out that in some scope the firmware is stored on nand flash with 3/6 months data retention. It doesn't even make sense to me. I hope I misunderstood.If that's the case I wonder what will be the next step."Please, sign here with your blood"

author: Gary350z
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 01:00:27 pm
content: Quote from: hs3 on May 24, 2016, 08:28:40 am1. Could keeping the NAND flash powered up be the reason this scope has a soft power button(power is on all the time)?2. Why do a lot of new scopes and other test equipment have soft power switches?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 01:02:44 pm
content: I have a pair of Advantest R3132 Spectrum Analyzers that use 16 MB Sandisk CF cards for the Firmware. I have already backed up the cards but the originals are still working fine and these units have to be 10 years old.Fraser

author: wagon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 01:04:52 pm
content: Keysight wouldn't get away with that behaviour here in Australia.I have personally helped customers get warranty repairs on not long out of warranty items. The retailer will tell them 'too bad', and so will the manufacturer : but when the manufacturer is asked / persuaded / threatened they come good very quickly. They rely on consumer ignorance to get away with it.Some really reputable manufacturers honour warranties years later for certain faults : Yamaha (music) is well-known for this. There was one series of digital pianos that had known faults with the keyboard section (the black and white bits). For many years they'd pay for a technician and the parts to replace the keyboard assembly. Then it dropped back to parts only, but the instruments were ten years old or so by then.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 01:09:33 pm
content: Quote from: wagon on May 24, 2016, 01:04:52 pmRelying on customer ignorance is a VERY common practice here in Brazil. What companies dont uderstand is that a furious customers will never buy their products again, and even worse: they will always tell their bad experience to others.

author: wagon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 01:14:09 pm
content: I forgot to mention, I've had electric fence gear I've repaired fail after 'sitting in a cupboard in the farm shed' for a year or so.Usually it's the main high voltage capacitor, something around 20-30uF, 900V rated. I usually 'look after the customer' but they rarely get it done for free.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 01:55:17 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 24, 2016, 01:09:33 pmAre you aware that Brazil is well known as a country with which it's very difficult to do business at all?Import procedures are so complex, and taxes so high, that places I've worked have simply refused to ship there. When we eventually did, it was for a very specific good reason, and required a disproportionate amount of effort.It may well be that, because of your location, you're not receiving the level of service that people in other countries would expect - and it's more to do with Brazilian import regulations and customs than any fault on the part of the manufacturer.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 02:01:58 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on May 24, 2016, 01:55:17 pmYes, I am very aware about that, and you described it pretty well. Our customs are slow, bureaucreatic and taxes are high. You are right, but I dont think any companies are obliged to sell here or even be here. If they are, I do think they should know how to treat their customers. All my replacments from Keysight took like 50+ days, and I never complained about that because I know how slow our customs are, so this is not a Keysight problem. But refusing to listen to my complaints and not taking ANY actions to try to remedy my situation has nothing to do with our bureaucracy and customs, do you agree?

author: hs3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 02:20:32 pm
content: Quote from: hibone on May 24, 2016, 12:59:45 pmI don't think the situation would be that bad. I don't know what the parts used in the scope are and what kind data retention times are promised for them. Someone could have a look at the teardowns and check what part number is used?My mention about the NAND data retention issue was mostly just to mention that after long enough time NAND in general could be more likely to have some issues than some other flash types. And if that happens and for some reason the error correction algorithms and other recovery procedures aren't able to deal with that it could be a potential source of problems.If it is a NAND data retention issue in these scopes I wonder if the firmware update process rewrites the whole flash or if the bootloader area never gets touched and rewritten. Assuming the bootloader is in the NAND flash.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 02:40:14 pm
content: Quote from: hibone on May 24, 2016, 12:59:45 pmNobody has claimed that sort of retention for the flash in these scopes. It should be some years.E: And five minutes of searching finds a 10 year figure. This is not a data retention problem.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 03:28:50 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 24, 2016, 02:01:58 pmDilma have been ousted from the throne yet the Brazilian senate is as corrupt as it always been. Brazil is probably more into exportingthings rather importing so unless your a big fat cat of a company that can push money buttons your way in to create a "easy" import flowyour toast to the system. But that does not give an explanation why the light years between Keysight US and Keysight BR.I once had steak made of a Brazilian cow in a Venetzuelan bordetown, it was like a rubber-band, most likely the Venezuelan chef's fault!If keysight US have this sloppy handling of its subsidiaries/local sales office on might think twice about Keysight US brand policy's, it aint the god ol HP of yesterdays i'm experienced with.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 03:57:05 pm
content: Quote from: MT on May 24, 2016, 03:28:50 pmUnfortunately I'm not, so as you said, I'm toast to the system. Avutally all our politiciasn are corrupt. If you do investigate them, I dont think a single one would be innocent. They like to keep people ignorant so they can take advantage of this.I'm sure our steaks are not rubber-like, I suppose the chef wasnt good haha...So far even Keysight US hasnt solved my issue. Still waiting. Ate least Keysight US is working to help me...

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 04:58:37 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 24, 2016, 02:01:58 pmI suspect that, for various reasons which undoubtedly include the cost of doing business there, the Brazilian market is just not that important to manufacturers. The level of service you receive is, I'm afraid, in line with that relative lack of importance.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 05:14:10 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on May 24, 2016, 04:58:37 pmOk, but if this is not an important market, they shouldnt be here. Being here with a bad customer support not only afftects our market but all markets. People worldwide are reading this and I dont think this sounds good: lets give our best to customers in our best markets and just not care at all about the ones in less important markets...

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 05:22:38 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 24, 2016, 05:14:10 pmWe've seen someothervendors pull out of Brazil completely and leave it up to distributors because Brazil is so hard to work with from outside the country.I'm very sorry for the trouble you've had locally. I think you got stuck with a weird corner-case issue alongside bad timing with the warranty. We'll get you taken care of!

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 05:33:28 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight_DanielBogdanoff on May 24, 2016, 05:22:38 pmYes Daniel, I've seen lots of vendors doing that, quite common around here to be honest. I know about all problems we have here (I lived here all my life). I just think my local Keysight office should be a little more understanding. I spent an hour on the phone with them yesterday and they are 100% convinced they are correct in the way they are dealing with this.Out of curiosity I asked the price of a new unit. The repair price + 5 years extended warranty was higher than a brand new unit (with standard 5 years warranty). I asked them:'Imagine you just got a new replacement car under warranty, and it fails with less than 10 hours of use. Then you get back to the dealer and they give you a repair price higher than that of a brand new car. Would you be happy? Would you fix your car?' They refused to answer or accept my arguments, and this is the same situation I am going through.

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 06:04:42 pm
content: I can't believe I'm the only person here who thinks the demand that Keysight repair an out of warranty scope is absurd.There was ample time to check the scope before the warranty period ended.The warranty terms were clear when you bought the unit. You had the opportunity to extend that warranty but decided not to spend the money.It's not even the request for help that I take issue with, it'a the arrogance and the sense of entitlement that goes along with it.If I were Keysight I would politely point to your warranty terms and send you on your way.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 06:12:48 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 24, 2016, 06:04:42 pmBetween the likelihood of a latent design defect, the fact that a replacement scope was also defective, and the absurd quoted repair cost as compared to the price of the scope, intervention in this instance is appropriate. If the repair cost was a few hundred dollars, I doubt we'd be talking about this.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 06:14:50 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 24, 2016, 06:04:42 pmThrough-out this thread I have generally felt the same as you, so you're not alone.This may have turned out to be a special case in a way as it seems the series of scopes may have a problem with flash retention while sitting/non use. This wasn't known though when the post was started.With that in mind I am glad Keysight seems to be stepping up to the plate and taking care of customers. I have a DSOX3xxx scope on my "to buy" list and this issue is giving me some hesitation knowing just how high the out of warranty repair prices are.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 06:17:29 pm
content: Quote from: TheSteve on May 24, 2016, 06:14:50 pmThat is not an issue, nor is it the issue experienced in this case.

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 06:22:24 pm
content: Quote from: TheSteve on May 24, 2016, 06:14:50 pmBase warranty is 3 years. Full repair overage after that is only $118 a year. Seems like cheap insurance for a $3000+ scope. Keysight is being very reasonable with their extended warranty pricing.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 06:27:07 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 24, 2016, 06:04:42 pmWho demanded a repair out of warranty here? I didnt. But I sure got shocked and pissed that the repair price was more than a new unit.And I only had 30 days to test the unit. Maybe ample time to you, but not for me.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 06:29:48 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on May 24, 2016, 06:12:48 pmQuote from: LabSpokane on May 24, 2016, 06:12:48 pmExactly!Quote from: Monkeh on May 24, 2016, 06:17:29 pmI guess you did not read the thread through. Yes, this is the case why I got a replacement in the first place!

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 06:33:01 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 24, 2016, 06:29:48 pmWhich is entirely irrelevant to the second failure.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 06:38:13 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 24, 2016, 06:33:01 pmYes, but not irrelevant to this discussion. If it wasnt for that failure, this thread wouldnt exist.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 06:47:20 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 24, 2016, 06:17:29 pmPerhaps a bit of a leap but I was wondering if the two issues might be related. Perhaps the PLL error is because a value from flash was not read correctly or was corrupted.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 07:27:40 pm
content: It's possible, but he should have gotten a whole new acquisition board after the last round. If this is the issue, it's the first time I've seen it in my few years working with these scopes.

author: D3f1ant
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 04:44:31 am
content: It would be nice if we could order 'soft' things like extending our warranties directly from keysights website...

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 11:49:41 am
content: Quote from: D3f1ant on May 25, 2016, 04:44:31 amNot only this, but it would also be nice if we could order any parts to fix any products from Keysight

author: D3f1ant
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 12:09:14 pm
content: Be even nicer if we could order their entire product line directly from their website...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 12:15:01 pm
content: Quote from: D3f1ant on May 25, 2016, 12:09:14 pmYep, with reasonably priced worldwide shipping (lots of people don't care it it takes two weeks to arrive, honestly!), proper TAX invoicing, and a working support network.I mean, what exactly is preventing companies from doing this?

author: D3f1ant
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 12:22:02 pm
content: 2 weeks would be great, I ordered a couple of probes recently and was told it could take upto 7 weeks!

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 12:28:20 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 25, 2016, 12:15:01 pmAgree

author: LA7SJA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 02:03:44 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 25, 2016, 12:15:01 pmOne word "Dealerships".Johan-Fredrik

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 03:51:44 pm
content: Para de chorar, falar mal de seu pais, pega um aviao pra Miami e conserta lá.Qualquer ligação para os USA via Skype é de graça

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 04:22:45 pm
content: Quote from: LA7SJA on May 25, 2016, 02:03:44 pmFTFY.The "dinosaur" system of distribution has been made obsolete by the Internet.

author: LA7SJA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 05:18:51 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 25, 2016, 04:22:45 pmI regret to inform you that this is not the case with Keysight! If i press [Get Quote] i am directed towww.4test.no.Johan-Fredrik

author: pxl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 07:33:23 pm
content: Quote from: LA7SJA on May 25, 2016, 05:18:51 pmThe best thing, that I even did not get quote for my request, because I was not able to prove that I am worthy enough to buy anything from the Mighty Company. Ahh, poor myself

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 08:15:05 pm
content: Quick update:Daniel sent me an e-mail yesterday. He's been working with his team and talking to some people to try to get this situation sorted out.I really believe Keysight will stand to its reputation and get this porperly taken care of.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 09:14:27 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 25, 2016, 08:15:05 pmIts kind of creepy people haveonly himto rely on! What if he changes company? I dont like the situation, i dont want any customer support at all, if the TEwork as advertisedno support would be needed!If i buy Rigoletto or Sigeletto i know for sure i wont get any support at all and if i do its rotten!However if i buy aGDS2204EfromGW Insteki actually get bug fix within weeks even days!

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 09:59:16 pm
content: Hi @MT,I'm definitely the main person present on this forum, but we do a lot of repairs, cal, & servicing everyday without me having to intervene (thank goodness!). I really like my job here at Keysight, so there are no plans there!I agree that it's best if no one ever needs customer support, but as engineers we all know that's not a reality. Part of why I'm on this forum is to be a double check to make sure things don't slip through the cracks. This is a good example of a weird corner case that our normal processes won't necessarily catch so I can intervene and help out. It's also worth noting that our call center application engineers were also ready to jump in and help out, but since I'd already started working on it I told them I'd take care of it.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 10:24:56 pm
content: Quote from: MT on May 25, 2016, 09:14:27 pmWhoa. Back up the truck there my friend. The fact that Keysight endorses its employee to use this forum to assist in customer interactions and general QC is a positive sign. Very positive.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 10:28:27 pm
content: Careful, or this thread will turn into another DSO pissing competition.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 02:15:25 am
content: Quote from: Keysight_DanielBogdanoff on May 25, 2016, 09:59:16 pmTrue.Before Daniel joined this discussion, I sent an e-mail to Keysight support explaining my situation. I got a response from Jason in the following working day and he was ready to help, but then Daniel was already taking care of this.

author: rch
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 08:31:28 am
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 26, 2016, 02:15:25 amAs a matter of interest, if this gets resolved are you going to take out the extended warranty? It sounds like a real bargain compared with the repair costs!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 10:38:31 am
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 22, 2016, 01:54:47 pmSo I guess you've never had much contact with their digital scopes then, because they are clearly not built to last a lifetime (from the cap plague and the stupid LCD shutter on the old TDSxxx Series to the pretty failure-prone TDS5k/7k/CSA Series).The only part you got right is that they are outdated spec-wise. Tek scopes are also generally horribly slow up to a point where they just lock up when something demanding is asked of them. Most of their scopes are also pretty dated designs, because instead of investing in real product development Tek has mostly resigned to sell slight refreshes of their stale products. Support has also taken a nose dive, which, considering that Tek is a Danaher company, shouldn't be surprising.Tek was without doubt the leader in analog scopes, but most of their DSOs were average at best. For digital scopes, it's pretty much LeCroy who has and still is pushing development forward, and to some extend HP/Agilent/Keysight as well.The Tek of today is the bottom-of-the-barrel of the big brands, and their sales reflect that (almost no-one outside the edu sector where Tek offers huge incentives buys Tek these days, unless they are forced to or their awareness of the T&M market is stuck in the '80s).QuoteA 30yr old boat anchor isn't a good example of the longevity of modern products from the same manufacturer. Tek built great scopes back then when analog scopes were still the dominant form of scopes, but that was over 25 years ago! It's silly to assume that not much has changed since then.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 11:03:18 am
content: Quote from: coppice on May 22, 2016, 02:25:41 pmHow true! People believe just because an old instrument works today that they all do, or that they never needed repairs. I can only think back with horror to scopes like the Tektronix 7000 modular series which we had many of back then, and which were the most failure-prone scopes I've ever seen (and I've seen a lot). Not that other analog scopes were without flaws, I've seen a fair share of selector issues, defective HV section, dying power supplies on lots of them. And as you say, the fact that they usually can be fixed easily is the main reason many are still around today, not because they have been wonders of reliability (which they weren't).I also don't know why people think a modern scope can't last 30 years or so like some of the old boat anchors from back then. Just look how many HP 54500 scopes (approx 25yrs old), 54600 scopes (roughly 20yrs old), LeCroy 9300 scopes (also roughly 20yrs old) and others are still in use. Hell, there are even many HP 54100 Series scopes (sample scope from the late '80s) and LeCroy 9400/7200 scopes (realtime scopes from the same era) still around.I can't see why a modern scope shouldn't be able to last a similar time.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 11:09:08 am
content: Quote from: MT on May 25, 2016, 09:14:27 pmYep. I'm not interested in seeing if Daniel sorts this one device out or not. I'm Interested in seeing if the Brazilian distributor gets fixed.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 11:28:42 am
content: Quote from: rch on May 26, 2016, 08:31:28 amYes, it is. In fact, for most Agilent/Keysight gear that is still supported the Repair Agreements are generally pretty cheap. Which is why I put most of my Agilent/Keysight gear under a 3yr agreement (aside from my DSO8064A scope which will be out of support in less than a year and my old E4406A which has been out of support for many years).It's also worth considering as an alternative to buying a new Keysight instrument. Buying a second hand instrument plus a Repair Agreement often turns out a lot cheaper than the new device.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 12:33:18 pm
content: Re service-ability/durability of modern scopes, the ASICs , high density boards and often lack of schematics would appear to make repair quite difficult. I suspect that modern scopes are better assembled and the quality of parts/PCBs better as well.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 12:39:41 pm
content: Quote from: rch on May 26, 2016, 08:31:28 amOf course, even for my other scopes. I wont takes any chances after finding out HOW EXPENSIVE these reapirs are.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 12:43:06 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 26, 2016, 11:09:08 amI would love to see this happening too, but I'm not so sure this is an easy task.

author: rch
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 12:48:24 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 26, 2016, 11:09:08 amBut it is arguable whether the Brazil office/distributor were in the wrong - depends if the second scope could be considered to be not fit for sale - it seems just the sort of case for a discretionary decision by Keysight customer services to me. what would you have said if the original scope the OP had bought had shown a PLL fault a few months out of warranty?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 12:51:41 pm
content: Quote from: VK5RC on May 26, 2016, 12:33:18 pmOTOH: The high level of integration makes them much more reliable. It's very unlikely a main board will fail once it's passed the initial burn-in period.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 12:58:37 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 26, 2016, 12:51:41 pmIt will fail, eventually, after all like any other component it will suffer from wear, and maybe some other stresses (i.e. thermally induced).But in general it should work for a very long time before failing.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 01:22:29 pm
content: Quote from: rch on May 26, 2016, 12:48:24 pmI get that if they reset the warranty to zero when they send out a replacement then certain people would see that as "Free oscilloscope for life!!"In this case though: The replacement failed within a very short time. I'd expect a bit of discretion from a company with any pride in its after-sales service.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 01:37:22 pm
content: If a replacement is offered and it is close to the expiration period, there needs to be a minimal amount such as 6 months, a year, etc. in case the replacement is a bad unit. Same deal on a repair, or at least the repaired component needs to have warranty coverage if IT is the issue a second time.Manufacturers that offer a premium product should naturally have longer warranties. While technically they are not responsible for 1 day outside of warranty, a company that wants to maintain a good relationship with their customers, especially those companies where you pay a premium, they should do all they can do maintain that good relationship. Always that is covering a design fault even out of warranty IMHO if they care about their reputation. Sometimes that is a repair outside of warranty depending on the situation. They should also always try to do repairs at a reasonable price. I think that is probably my biggest issue with the way they have handled this case. Yes, it is out of warranty, but (a) they would have been wise given the situation to keep their customer happy, and (b) their repair estimate was insanely high.I once had a Canon camera, and not a pricy one, that was probably 5 times out of warranty because it was so old. It developed an issue and I called them and they said that even though it was out of warranty, they still had parts available for it, and they chose to repair it at no charge. I was very impressed, and I spend my "camera" dollars accordingly...

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 02:36:08 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on May 26, 2016, 01:37:22 pmAgree.Some years ago I had a similar problem. My iPod nano (cant remember which generation, but much bigger than todays) failed 6 or 7 months after the Apple warranty expired. I too it to the Apple service center here. The guy told me the repair would probably cost me more than a new one, but I should leave it there for an estimate. It was sent to the Appler repair center in Sao Paulo and I got a phone call 3 days later: Apple decided to give me a new one free of charge. I dont know why, maybe it was a known problem, ad I certainly did not expect that. I already assumed it was unrepairable and I should start looking for a new one. What I do know is that I am a happy customer and have been for 8 years now. Not a single customer support issue with Apple so far, even with lots of stuff from them. They reply complaints very fast, get things solved quickly and are very kind and polite. This is my experience, but YMMVI'm not an Apple fanboy at all, just a happy customer.

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 06:38:40 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 26, 2016, 01:22:29 pm5 months is not a very short period of time. His warranty expired, he had the opportunity to buy an extended warranty and chose not to. Like a spoiled child, he keeps blasting Keysight as if it's a poor company because it won't give him the out-of-warranty freebee he wants.His demands are rude, irrational, and instead of graciously accepting Daniel's offer to assist he keeps insulting Keysight and has engaged an attorney.If I were Keysight, I wouldn't do a damn thing more for this guy. Let the man who says he can't afford a phone call from Brazil to the US use the attorney he hired to sue them. I'm certain he'll lose.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 06:59:58 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 26, 2016, 06:38:40 pmDude, you really need to read the thread. The original issue was about the ridiculouspriceof arepair, not getting something for nothing.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 07:00:50 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 26, 2016, 02:36:08 pmSame here. I once had a MacBook Pro fail (display or GPU issue) *one day* after the warranty expired. I brought it to the store and a tech took it into the back; 10 minutes later he handed me a box containing a brand new unit. Not only that, but it was also the top spec, newer generation version (with a faster CPU, bigger SSD and double the ram).They didn't have to do that as I was technically outside my warranty. They could have replaced the GPU or display in my existing one and charged me for it! But I was polite and didn't make any demands, so they took care of me.That's why I've been an Apple customer for 12 years now.

author: rch
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 07:09:51 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 26, 2016, 06:38:40 pmObviously I don't know about Brazilian law, but in the EU he might well win. It might depend a bit on the exact contract if he bought as a business rather than as a consumer.

author: rch
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 07:11:27 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on May 26, 2016, 06:59:58 pmYesbut, this does seem to be a standard Keysight price foranyrepair to this model.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 07:37:29 pm
content: Quote from: timb on May 26, 2016, 07:00:50 pmNot the case actually, there was no some exceptional good will from their side. GPU issue was Nvidia or AMD (depending which year it was) GPU design fault coupled together with ridiculously crappy cooling. This issue was covered by extended warranty period (probably because of the class action lawsuits). This wasn't because they decided so for your good but because this was general issue with those models. Also, if your laptop GPU would die in the way so it wouldn't be able too boot, they won't be able to run test app, and most likely you would be out of luck (there were many people like this). Even if the fault was in the same chip because of the same issue with it.http://www.cultofmac.com/61338/nvidia-settles-class-action-lawsuit-over-macbook-pro-gpus/http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/widespread-2011-macbook-pro-failures-petition-lawsuit-repair-programme-3497935/

author: D3f1ant
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 07:43:14 pm
content: Apple (and Keysight) service experience seems to vary by country, in NZ the Apple service is fairly crapple, but here your dealing with the dreaded reseller not directly with Apple. They constantly try and flaunt our consumer protection laws, especially when it comes to supplying refurbished product as replacement for warranty claims.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 07:47:35 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 26, 2016, 07:37:29 pmIt was before that issue. If I remember right, it was the *original* Intel MBP with a Core Duo that I had the problem with. They replaced it with a newer C2D unit. (So, when I mentioned it having a bigger SSD above, I meant HDD.)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 07:50:21 pm
content: Quote from: timb on May 26, 2016, 07:47:35 pmCore 2 duo with Nvidia GPU - faulty chips were made in 2006-2008

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 07:55:55 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 26, 2016, 07:50:21 pmI had a CoreDuo. They replaced it with a Core2Duo unit which ran fine for 5 years. I guess I got lucky and my unit didn't have a faulty chip. I remember that whole fiasco!(I don't think the problem I had with the CoreDuo was GPU related anyway. I'm pretty sure the DVI port worked with an external monitor, which means it was actually an LCD issue.)

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 07:56:39 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on May 26, 2016, 06:59:58 pm"I have tried to talk to everyone I could at Keysight butthey insist I must pay this and theres no other way around it. I'm still shocked and have absolutely no idea on what to do."He has, from the beginning, insisted that Keysight take care of this becauseit's only 5 monthsout of warranty. He won't make a phone call to the US because it's too pricey, so if you think he just wants Keysight to cut the price of the repair you're mistaken. He wants it for FREE.The louder and more belligerent the poster gets the more inclined I am to believe this unit simply failed, outside of the warranty period, and he wants an exception to the clear warranty terms made for him.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 08:03:49 pm
content: Quote from: timb on May 26, 2016, 07:55:55 pmCore duo seem to have AMD GPU. However display not working but external video output functioning at the same time was quiet common for that fault.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 08:26:35 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 26, 2016, 07:56:39 pmI would be pissed if a replacement scope dies within 5 months. Actually I'd expect to get a full warranty period on a replacement scope. After all it is supposed to be (like) new!

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 08:28:00 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 26, 2016, 07:56:39 pmI see you have a lot of imagination my friend! You must be a very creative person, but please use all that imagination for the good!I actually want the whole world for free and I have a secret plan to conquer the world. Obviously I can't share it with you or I wont be able to do so!

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 08:28:44 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 26, 2016, 08:26:35 pmI would be pissed if a scope dies after 15 years, but that doesn't mean the company has an obligation to repair or replace a device beyond the warranty period. A full term warranty after each repair/replacement? What company does that?

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 08:34:05 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 26, 2016, 08:28:00 pmI don't need an imagination to analyze this situation.Your equipment failed many months after the warranty expired. You believe you're entitled to a free repair or replacement despite the clear warranty terms and the ability to buy an inexpensive extended warranty. You took a chance and lost, now you cry like a spoiled brat.Instead of taking the lesson of your stupidity, you want to make Keysight the bad actor.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 08:49:44 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 26, 2016, 08:34:05 pmWell, you keep surprising me! You actually have A LOT, I mean, A LOT of imagination! Much more that I thoughtYou dont need imagination to analyze the situation, I know. But you do need it to make things up. I like it, makes everything more interesting.I never said I want a free repair. Or a free warranty. Or a free BMW (uhm, maybe I do want that). And I'm not cryingKeysight US is AMAZING to be honest, and they have been handling this like any reputable company should.I was just telling my story so everyone knows what happened to me. You know what happened right? That was the whole point. This is a discussion board, so what do we do here? Discuss about stuffBut I do want he whole world for free with my ultra top secret plan

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 08:56:06 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 26, 2016, 08:49:44 pmI know what you claim happened because you wrote about it here extensively.Your behavior is shameful. You come here screaming and insulting Keysight as if they wronged you somehow, but they didn't. They've lived up to the terms of their written warranty and you're demanding more.If they do repair or replace your unit, how many more years of free warranty coverage do you think your entitled to?

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 09:07:11 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 26, 2016, 08:56:06 pmI'm not entitled to any warranty, it expired already as I said befeore.... But I will order the extended warranty for all my scopes and I sent Daniel an e-mail about this too.Better safe than sorry

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 09:18:33 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 26, 2016, 07:56:39 pmHe reported a situation he found absurd as many others do in this forum do day in and day out. The fact he is mad about the fact they want him to pay an absurd price for a repair of an oscilloscope that was barely used*ANDwas already a replacement for a faulty unit is just that: he finds the price too high and thinks it is worth reporting. Nothing more, nothing less (I haven't seen him bashing Keysight US for that). As someone else mentioned, if the repair was some hundreds of dollars this thread wouldn't exist, or it would be more on the lines of a "possible DSO2000 sudden death syndrome after X months turned off".Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 26, 2016, 07:56:39 pmThe louder and more belligerent you get the more inclined I am to believe you simply failed, outside of the perfect reason, to look at the original post from a non-judgmental scope...*Easy to verify by looking at the power-on time counter of the oscilloscope.

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 11:31:29 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on May 26, 2016, 09:18:33 pmAt no point did the original poster say he would be happy with a lower repair price, why are you assuming that? He wouldn't even make a phone call because it might cost a couple of dollars.How long after a warranty has expired do you think a manufacturer is obligated to repair a product? I am struggling to understand why some people have such a difficult time with this concept. A warranty is an agreement for a fixed period. It wouldn't be any more acceptable for a manufacturer to refuse to service a defective item because "the warranty is almost over" any more than the absurd sense of entitlement that allow someone to get furious with a company that won't make give them a free extended warranty, which is what the poster effectively wants.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 01:12:21 am
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 26, 2016, 11:31:29 pmThat is due to your detachement from reality but I'm sure that when you buy a product you will want it to keep working long after the warranty expires? Or are you completely happy when everything you own breaks the day the warranty expires?Anyway it is perfectly reasonable to expect a manufacturer (or seller) to be reasonable about the repair costs and certainly not charge nearly new prices for a repair which is necessary shortly after the warranty expired. In the EU they even made that into a (consumer) law which says a manufacturer has to pay part of the repairs which occur within the generally expected lifetime of a product.However I can't judge about the OP's specific situation and I don't know what has happened so far exactly so it makes no sense to speculate about who is right or wrong but I do expect Keysight to be reasonable based on all the knowledge they have about the actual situation.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 01:46:07 am
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 26, 2016, 11:31:29 pmThat is NOT what I want, that is what you want me to want but I dont wanna want that, get it? I never wrote that, but your imagination keeps telling you that my friendI did write to Keysight Brazil (before posting here) telling them that I expected to pay much less than that. But I dont wanna expose all my case here, Daniel has everything he needs to understand it all in detail.Actually that repair price is higher than what a new unit would cost me here, so it makes no sense. Keysight could offer me a new unit for less then that.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 02:05:24 am
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 26, 2016, 11:31:29 pmBTW, I decided to check the rates for an international call to the US around here. I dont usually check that because I make few international calls and when I do, they are just a couple minutes. Anyway, calling to the US is much cheaper than what I thought, only $1.14 (USD) per minute.I did spend more than 5 hours total trying to solve this whole problem down here, which would translate to ~350 dollars (considering I would need to talk that much, but I highly doubt that since Keysight US has been very quick to understand the problem). But yes, I could easily call if needed, I tought it was much more expensive. I'm happy you mentioned that and made me actually look for the rates.Rates are here (in BRL):https://www.vivo.com.br/portalweb/appmanager/env/web?_nfls=false&_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=P61200154721369424431978&WT.ac=portal.movel.vivo15.tarifasddiavulso.celularvivo#See my friend, you helped me once again! I did not know calling the US was affordable. Just as a comparison, calling Africa would cost me almost 6.00USD a minute! Rates are much better nowadays than last time I checked (yes, many years ago I must confess!).Thank you, this thread has made me learn quite a few useful things and this is the beauty of such a place

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 06:08:03 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 27, 2016, 01:12:21 amUnless you illegally sneak it into Brazil without paying their insane taxes, I doubt $2000 is more than 40% of the scope price.

author: bktemp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 07:36:28 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 27, 2016, 01:12:21 amCan you give me a reference for that? I know about a law in the UK, but have never heard of anything similar for the EU. I can only find information about a 2-year guarantee period:http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 10:03:10 am
content: Quote from: wraper on May 27, 2016, 06:08:03 amWhen I lived in Brazil, instrumentation and test equipment fell into a much lower tax bracket (a few %). Not sure how it is nowadays, though.

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 10:40:01 am
content: Quote from: wraper on May 27, 2016, 06:08:03 amI dont know if Farnell 'sneaks' whith their products here, maybe you should ask them and tell usAnd the price of a new one was also quoted by Keysight Brazil itself, if you read the complete thread. Are you saying Keysight ilegally sneaks with products here to avoid taxes? I doubt that.

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 10:46:07 am
content: Actually it is not very strange for me if repair costs more than buying new one.Packing, logistic, paperwork. Whats actually strange about that ? Especially in stupid countries. (no offense Bsgd)I have some optimized flow for distributing new units and repair routes might be odd for me somehow. Something like buying cheap crap from ebay. It is so easy to buy from China, however it is not very comfortable to return item.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 10:52:41 am
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 27, 2016, 10:40:01 amI cannot find mentioning any scopeprices in Brazilin this tread, only mentioning US Prices. Though there is farnell page about the shipping to Brazilhttp://www.newark.com/brazil-direct-shipQuote

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 11:28:36 am
content: Quote from: wraper on May 27, 2016, 10:52:41 amThis scope was not bought at Farnell US. It was bought in Farnell Brazil but they closed down their operations here last year, as I said before.Those import taxes are for the final consumer, not a company. Farnell and Keysight) are not final consumers, so these are not valid and are actually much lower, as someone also mentioned before. See the beauty of a forum? You always learn something new!Or you can call Keysight Brazil and talk To Roberta Michael, the same person I talked to who gave me the price of a new one including 5 years warranty and report back to us. At least she agreed that the repair price was a bit nonsense after I asked the price of a new unit

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 11:37:41 am
content: wraper, Farnell probably imported this product using the reduced rate of 5%, as specified in section 9030.20 of theofficial import tax table

author: Augustus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 11:42:41 am
content: Quote from: bktemp on May 27, 2016, 07:36:28 amI don't know if this is EU wide but at least in Germany there are two different types of "warranties" for consumers. There is the so called "Händlergewährleistung", towards the seller of the product, which usually is the distributor and not the manufacturer. The "Gewährleistung" period is 2 years in theory, but effectively only 6 months because starting with month 7 the purchaser is supposed to prove that any defect has its cause by a manufacturing fault, which usually isn't possible. During the first 6 months the seller has to prove that the defect wasn't a manufacturing fault, which is equally hard for him, so they usually just repair it or give you an new device without any hassle during the first 6 months. The "Gewährleistung" is by law and there is a bit of a grey area of what happens to it if a gadget gets repaired or replaced with a new unit. Usually, if it is repaired, the "Gewährleistung" period just keeps on going from the date of purchase of the original device. If it gets replaced by a brand new unit it starts again at zero for another 2 years.And then there is the "Herstellergarantie", the manufacturers own warranty. This is optional and voluntary, there is no need for a manufacturer to offer any. If he offers an optional manufacturers warranty he is pretty free to lay out the terms of it to his own will (length of warranty, if it gets replaced with a new unit or repaired, who has to cover the shipping costs manufacturer or customer, what happens to the warranty if the unit gets repaired or replaced and so on). The terms of the manufacturers warranty (if any) have to be provided to the customer and they become part of an contract between the two parties. If the warranty is over, it's over. And if it's just one day past it, it's over. Of course, you usually get some "grace period", one month or maybe two, but this is really grace, you don't have any legal entitlement to it so you better play nice because what goes around, comes around and a little kindness goes a long way...All AFAIK and AFAIR...

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 12:03:45 pm
content: Logitech is a champion on customer service.They gave many years warranty on mouse.Just in a month before warranty ends, my mouse start to failing buttons, I called logitech from Brazil ( ringed in Europe ) they ask me what's is the problem, also a picture of the product and bar code, and a copy of the billing.3 days I ;atter have a new mouse ( even a better model ) in my door without any charge.What a great support, In my company logitech is now a preferential supplier.This is the way to do business not the predatory Keisigth business, who have higher expenses handling a case and not solving the case with a unhappy customer, than solving the case on a quick and easy way and have a live time customer

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 12:14:59 pm
content: Quote from: ebclr on May 27, 2016, 12:03:45 pmWhat they shouldn't to is making cheap crap which is sold for big money as Logitech do. Their failing mouse buttons are just insanity. Yes I got a replacement for my 70 EUR mouse very easily. After sitting year in the package, switches were already not working well when taken out of the package (false double click), exactly like in replaced one. They have this double click switch issue for many years if not more than decade with most of the mouses they make.And if it was 1 day after warranty have ended you won't get any replacement at all.QuoteWhat is so predatory? Not wanting to offer free repair after warranty have ended? Good luck asking Logitech to repair your mouse after the warranty had ended.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 12:32:04 pm
content: The button failed after 2 year and 11 months, no other mouse that i know can go so long. We are in days of Planned obsolescence, and I disagree Logitech is not crap is a good mouse

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 12:44:58 pm
content: Quote from: ebclr on May 27, 2016, 12:32:04 pmThere are tons of cheap mouses which work fine for a decade.

author: rch
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 01:25:37 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 27, 2016, 12:44:58 pmI've got a Logitech trackball that must be coming up to 20 years old and it works fine.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 01:43:45 pm
content: Any fix that cost more than 20% of a new product is predatory, specially if is a project issue.I don't receive free keisight instruments for review.

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 03:22:27 pm
content: Quote from: ebclr on May 27, 2016, 01:43:45 pmSo no matter what's wrong, the repair shouldn't cost "more than 20% of the new product price" or a company is being predatory??I feel like I've been shipwrecked on the Isle of Stupid.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 03:28:27 pm
content: Quote from: rch on May 27, 2016, 01:25:37 pmSame here.I've 2 of them, and all I've ever had to do is clean the ball area out when needed.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 03:51:38 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 27, 2016, 03:22:27 pmNo kidding. What if it was a (out of warranty) scope worth $200K and suffered major damage during a lightning strike and the ACQ board was completely blown and BER?Jay

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 04:00:59 pm
content: Quote from: timb on May 26, 2016, 07:00:50 pmStill that dont say anything about those 12000 people who was rejected a new unit! You could as well just bevery lucky that your Daniel Bogdanof type was there to ""take care of you" which would have meant a verydifferent thing if he had been a mafia associate!

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 04:12:06 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight_DanielBogdanoff on May 25, 2016, 09:59:16 pmHi Daniel!Your doing a great job, no question about that, but the fact you are "indeed" needed is worrying! This im sure you understand is not personalrather a poking finger at corporate managment, well above your head so to speak. The worrying issue are Keysight BR who's representativeNOW says (according to OP) their repair bill was hideous, yetthey insisted. One of the reason i took the chance in flight to shamelessly promote:GDS 2204E from GW INSTEK...!Anyhow my recommendations to people who buys "expensive" TE the should take out an extended warranty.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 04:21:01 pm
content: Quote from: ebclr on May 27, 2016, 01:43:45 pmReally? So you insist that that 50+% of the product (acquisition board)replacement should cost 20% of the price? Or TV LCD panel.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 04:29:56 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on May 27, 2016, 03:28:27 pmThat goes exclusively for their mouses and for some stupid reason, usually expensive ones. My friend already has 3x of same model (don't remember which exactly )mx series wireless mouses with the same left button issue.http://forums.logitech.com/t5/Mice-and-Pointing-Devices/Performance-MX-mouse-double-clicking/td-p/591328QuoteQuote

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 05:07:35 pm
content: Regarding Logitech mice, I have one where the buttons failed very quickly. They would go between not clicking at all to getting multiple transitions. It was replaced with another one that developed the same symptoms.I tracked it down to cheap switches with poor plating. I replaced them with an eSwitch equivalent and they've both been fine ever since.They cheaped out and put poor-quality components in an otherwise well-built mouse. I will habitually blame accountants and management for that kind of direction. Where the switch is the primary interface between the user and the device, it would be irresponsible of them to not test it for millions of cycles.Otherwise the vendor changed the process on the switch after it was tested.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 05:38:29 pm
content: Some people biased , would love to pay 2000 USD to change a PLL or burn a new firmware and I believe that is reasonable to compare with a product damaged who remain after a atomic attack and need repair.It's unacceptable to pay 2k for service a scope near the same price ,on a PLL defect , this is a real steal. Also they didn't supply parts for service.20% is a very good reference , with cases that can pass this cost but must be clear exceptions not the rule

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 06:06:45 pm
content: Quote from: ebclr on May 27, 2016, 05:38:29 pmWhere do you come up with 20%? So repairs on a Rigol 1054z should be no more than $70???

author: botcrusher
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 06:53:04 pm
content: I've used this mouse since 2001, and easily clicked it too many times to think.It still works to this day.http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41186QZFSJL._SL1500_.jpg

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 09:23:31 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 26, 2016, 08:56:06 pmExplain how acompanycanbe/feel insulted, and how that actually may look like?Docompanieshave insult departments? Customer Insult Officer Daniel Bogdanoff...or something?Im sure on planet Mars where you come from it is possible but you see this is planet Earth and here only presidents can get insulted.You can even win 1000ukp writing the best Recep Tayyip Erdogan insult!http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/send-us-your-entries-for-our-president-erdogan-insulting-poetry-competition/http://www.voltairenet.org/article191080.html

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 10:24:56 pm
content: Quote from: MT on May 27, 2016, 09:23:31 pmA company's reputation can be damaged by malicious insults. This is Norwegian law:§ 247.Any person who by word or deed behaves in a manner that is likely to harmanother person’s good name and reputationor to expose him to hatred, contempt,or loss of the confidence necessary for hisposition orbusiness, or who is accessorythereto, shall be liable to fines or imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year. Ifthe defamation is committed in print or in broadcasting or otherwise under especiallyaggravating circumstances, imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years may beimposed.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 10:35:03 pm
content: Law is not applicable for this , since everything is true fact on how company behave

author: rch
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 10:45:20 pm
content: Quote from: ebclr on May 27, 2016, 10:35:03 pmI don't know about the Norwegian law, but for the Turkish law referred obliquely to above I don't think truth is any defence at all.There may well be countries were even fair comment that damages a company could be penalised. You simply can't generalise about that sort of law.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 10:47:27 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 27, 2016, 10:24:56 pmTough. Regarding that one, it has to be a "malicious" insult. Broadcasting experiences with poor design aren't malicious - that's simply another form of customer feedback.If there is a design flaw that results in the customer paying egregiously for repair, even if it's some reasonable time out of the warranty period, then the company sure as better understand that in this day and age people will have the ability and capability to broadcast their experience using rather effective methods.Something as sophisticated as that scope can easily have any number of software issues. They are actually expected, which is why the software can be upgraded in the field. Perhaps a combination of hardware design issues and software problems resulted in the trouble. That should not be a warranty / out of warranty issue. It's a design error that terminated proper operation of the equipment. It's no different than having a built-in self-destruct that destroys the equipment after some period of time, only in this case the action appears to be the result of an obscure problem.Problem reports like this get recorded until eventually there is a pattern clear enough to be recognized, and resources are allocated to fix the problem.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 11:16:49 pm
content: Checking deeper show why some guys didn't like Brazil,http://www.timesofisrael.com/latvian-veterans-who-fought-alongside-nazis-hold-parade/

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2016, 01:28:10 am
content: Quote from: ebclr on May 27, 2016, 11:16:49 pmHmm... Are you implying some posters have an anti Brazil bias? Even worse, that they may harbor Nazi sympathies? Not clear to me.

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2016, 02:48:12 am
content: Dearie me - this has become one amazingly derailed thread at this point.I'm amazed that anyone from Keysight would even want to be seen posting in it. Needs a good pruning by a moderator or just move it to chat.As an owner of a msox2024a I was interested in the details behind the scenes of how the firmware boot can fail and new firmware that tries to make the process resilient, but now it's a thread that's gone into bizarro land.cheers,george.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2016, 03:21:03 am
content: Quote from: georges80 on May 28, 2016, 02:48:12 amIt's safe to say this thread was never on rail to begin with. Look at the provocative title and the talk of attorneys, etc., etc.. Probably best to just start a new thread with a different title. The title as is is click bait. (is is?)

author: georgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2016, 05:01:40 am
content: Quote from: georges80 on May 28, 2016, 02:48:12 amYou are not alone.Here are some links relevant to DSOX series memory organization, boot process etc.The Keysight document about memory layout:literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5990-8184EN.pdf?id=2058171Useful information how to read memory dump from DSOX2/3000 scopes:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dsox2000-and-3000-series-licence-have-anyone-tried-to-hack-that-scope/msg274963/#msg274963Lint to main flash memory chip manufacturer's site:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dsox2000-and-3000-series-licence-have-anyone-tried-to-hack-that-scope/msg274963/#msg274963The bootloader used in DSOX scopes:http://www.denx.de/wiki/U-BootCheers,Georg

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2016, 06:42:39 pm
content: This thread is officially an embarrassment. Would someone do humanity a favor and rename/lock/move/delete it?

author: D3f1ant
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2016, 08:25:34 pm
content: +1 it needs some serious moderationThe whole thread had a funny smell from the beginning.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2016, 09:26:19 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on May 28, 2016, 06:42:39 pmWhy on earth are such actions required ?What this threadreallyneeds is a result whether it be good or bad for the OP doesn't matter so much, whatreallymatters is how we will gauge KS's support/warranty/aftermarket service when that result is known.That it hasn't been resolved thus far is surprising, we're ~1 week on now and haven't heard from the OP for nearly a couple of days in Reply #247.Further updates would've been nice, let's hope nondisclosure agreements aren't the reason for the deafening silence.

author: D3f1ant
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2016, 10:23:11 pm
content: If it isn't obvious, it needs moderation because this atest and measurement sub of an electronics forum.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2016, 01:52:08 am
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on May 27, 2016, 10:24:56 pmThanks, you just confirmed (again) your stupidity. Kim Jung would like to hire you.Quote from: tautech on May 28, 2016, 09:26:19 pmExactly!

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2016, 12:51:00 am
content: Hello everyone!I did not reply earlier because I was out of town since we had a holiday here. I also wont reply to posts about Brazil, Nowergian laws or Logitech mouses, since this is not what this discussion is all aboutThis is about my experience with Keysight customer support regarding my specific case and that's what Im here to talk about.Daniel got back to me on friday by e-mail. A warranty extension to cover for the repair has been approved and they are now taking care of some internal matters to proceed with the repair. Keysight Brazil still hasnt got back to me and the oscilloscope is still on the bench waiting for things to finally come together so they can proceed with the repair.Once again I'd like to thank Daniel and Keysight for taking the time to look into this.I will keep you guys posted as I believe many of you are waiting to know the final outcome of all this discussion that has been going on for days

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2016, 05:16:33 am
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 30, 2016, 12:51:00 am^This!With some special things this forum have tight moderation but then with this kind OT things this is like worst scrap heap where brats throwing shit and others applauding.

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2016, 03:01:06 pm
content: Quote from: bsgd on May 30, 2016, 12:51:00 amAre you going to change the idiotic "Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again! " or are you going to let that insult stand? I don't think Keysight should have given you anything, for the record.

author: rch
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2016, 03:25:30 pm
content: AMI, is it possible to change the title of a thread? And does it propagate through all the messages?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2016, 05:04:52 pm
content: Quote from: rch on May 31, 2016, 03:25:30 pmYes, but the current title is perfect.(well, maybe you could "...in Brazil" to it)

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 31, 2016, 05:16:22 pm
content: Well I did it anyway, I bought a Keysight product...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2016, 10:13:15 am
content: No feedback from the OP in 10 days.I'm not afraid to ask: what's going on with this ?

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2016, 01:03:25 pm
content: 8 of 10 of my test equp is HP/agilent , and I just love it.They have released schematics of most of the equip I have (older stuff) like E4432B , 6632B etc.Try to get info or schematics for a R&S unit , and you will meet the wall of silence.For a hobbyist HP/agilent is a good choiceJust sad they ruined their forum w. The new layout/Bingo

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2016, 11:48:11 am
content: Most of my test equipment is also made by Agilent / Keysight and I am very happy with it.And when something broke, Agilent / Keysight always took care of it, even when it was slightly out of warranty.I even bought used and defective Agilent / Keysight gear that was still in warranty and it was repaired free of charge.And if some instrument breaks down out of warranty it is most of the time repairable, because we have Service Manuals available.A tread like this will not discourage me at all to buy more new and used Keysight test gear.At the end, I think it will not discourage anyone.But I agree, the OP should change the title.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2016, 11:55:13 am
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on June 12, 2016, 11:48:11 amIt sounds like you deal with them a lot.When you post things like this it might be worth saying:* How far away is your Agilent / Keysight office?* How do you contact them? Do you go to the office or is it telephone+postal service? If so, who pays for shipping?* How much equipment do you buy from them?* Do you personally know anybody there?Country is probably important, too. A hobbyist living in Brazil probably doesn't get the same level of service as a big company in a large German city.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2016, 12:26:42 pm
content: 1. Well, I am in northern Germany and Keysight has an Office in southern Germany, so may be 700 km away-Shipment is usually UPS or FEDEX2. I send them an email and get a RMA usually the same day3. I don't think I ever bought equipment directly from them, except repair parts. Usually I buy Keysight equipment from:- Distributor in Germany- Keysight eBay store- Used from around the world4. No personal contact to the German Keysight officeWe also used to have very good support in Germany for FLUKE, KEITHLEY and TEKTRONIX, up to like 10 years ago.That has changed so much to the worst ever experience, since they all merged and centralized everything.The last time I needed help with a Tektronix scope, I did not even get an answer form the support team in Germany.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2016, 05:07:11 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on June 11, 2016, 10:13:15 amWe took care of him under warranty. It was an unusual situation and it made sense for the warranty to cover it in this case.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2016, 08:23:09 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight_DanielBogdanoff on June 13, 2016, 05:07:11 pmThat seemed like the wise thing to do considering he was planning on replacing a # of his older equipment.Hey, KS might even get a look in on supplying those replacements now.

author: continuo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2016, 08:43:25 pm
content: But yet the OP wasn't able to post a public "thank you" into this thread, despite all the effort and good will Keysight Daniel put into resolving his problem. And the offending subject title is still unchanged

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2016, 05:34:58 am
content: Quote from: Keysight_DanielBogdanoff on June 13, 2016, 05:07:11 pmAnd he didn't have the decency to come in here and say thanks? Uhuh.

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2016, 07:51:45 am
content: Hmm, I think he did.Quote from: bsgd on May 30, 2016, 12:51:00 amCheersAlex

author: bsgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2016, 01:39:46 am
content: I would like to come forward and THANK DANIEL and everyone from this forum and from Keysight who helped me. Keysight fixed the issue and decided not to charge anything. I took some time to come here and tell everyone the outcome because I wanted to test the scope for some time to make sure all was perfect, as the last time the defect took quite some time to show up.I also learned a lesson: repairing these scopoes is so expensive that I encourage EVERYONE to get an extended warrantyTHANK YOU KEYSIGHT!I have posted a new thread and crosslinked them so everyone knows what happene:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/thank-you-daniel-my-faith-in-agilent-keysight-has-been-restored-)/

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2016, 03:03:50 am
content: Maybe you could also change the name of this topic.

author: Faith
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2016, 03:21:56 am
content: For sure. I've only had the pleasure of dealing with Keysight more recently (as I've always been very loyal to Fluke in the past); but now whenever I need new equipment I look to Keysight first before anyone else even if it costs me more upfront.Their presales and most important aftersales support has been nothing short of spectacular; be it when communicating with them directly or through their eBay store.So my stance is quite the opposite versus the subject of this thread (:

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2016, 06:13:08 pm
content: Fluke has probably no DMM with 7 segment dual display like Keysight U1242C or Brymen BM829S.Fluke 189 was discontinued.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 04:59:03 pm
content: I have no problem with natural fonts. Buy a graphic DMM like Fluke 289 if you like it and you have enough money.Well, I prefer simple DMMs that have a 0,5s boot up time.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2016, 12:52:32 am
content: Fluke 289 is powered by six AA batteries that last only 100 hours. Well, this DMM is good only if you need that special log features and other advanced stuff.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2016, 02:32:46 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 21, 2016, 01:23:01 amI am not sure that you are being very clear. Yes the Brymen BM869S has 0.02% +2D up to the 5 volt range, the 0.03% on the 50V range, then 0.04% on the 500V range and lastly 0.15% on the 100V range. The 289 is 0.05% +20D on 50mV range which the BM869S does not have, 0.025% +2D from 500mV to 50V ranges, 0.03% +2D on 500V and 100V range. It goes back and forth between them. I have not looked at the Gossen.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 10:58:31 am
content: Reanimating the thread because somebody from Keysight really needs to see this:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1358834/#msg1358834(...and read the next couple of comments below it)