Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 01:41:45 pm
content: Just a question comes to mind... would you employ someone without a masters degree in electronics?I mean in some/your company which goes about electronics design and by someone I mean someone with a reasonable amount of knowledge... who hasn't gone through an electronic engineering school and thus has no official qualification in EE.Would you consider employing these people? Why or why not?Just interested to know your thoughts about this, thanxSorry if there's already a thread for it, I haven't seen it.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 01:56:44 pm
content: This is, I'm sad to say, a thread which is going to attract a very predictable response.You'll get a bunch of responses saying "yes, of course I'd hire someone without a degree, it's experience / attitude / interest / whatever... that matters, not some bit of paper". They'll cite an example of a person with degree X who couldn't complete task Y as an example of why the degree is useless. They might even name an individual who achieved something technically notable, and who didn't have one.Then you'll get other responses which say "hang on a minute, a degree provides essential theoretical background which every engineer needs to know", and who will shake their heads in disapproval at having four years' hard work dismissed so casually. They'll point out that so-and-so was a statistical anomaly, however great their achievement.No member of either group will ever be persuaded by the arguments of the other.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 01:59:21 pm
content: I have seen so many well degreed morons to know to put a person's smart, dedication, team work and leadership above anything.Degrees are for losers.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 02:00:03 pm
content: See?

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 02:03:37 pm
content: Okay, that might be a little predictable.Therefore would be interesting to know, what percentage of people who would employ have the EE degree or not and what percentage of people actually thinks EE schools today will give EE students the essential theretical background....wait a moment - what do you consider the essential theoretical background should look like? (a partial answer for my why or why not question above)//definitely see.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 04:02:49 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 07, 2015, 01:59:21 pmThe question was not if you will employ *any* person with a degree.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 04:10:56 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on February 07, 2015, 01:56:44 pmThe eduphobes vs the edusnobs.Later we will discuss also avr vs pic and whether AGW is exaggerated or a settled science.;-)

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 04:17:56 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on February 07, 2015, 01:56:44 pmSums the situation up perfectly.I've known idiots with degrees that didn't know anything and wouldn't learn anything and thought their degree was all they needed. I've known non degreed idiots that thought they didn't need "that piece of paper that is just handed out in most cases."I've know very well educated and very effective engineers with and without degrees. Those are the people from whom I've tried to learn.

author: f5r5e5d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 04:26:16 pm
content: signals and systems, feedback control theory, Electromagnetism for RF do have steep math requirements for self learningbut many people from other STEM disciplines with the Calculus and Differential Eq math prereqs can make the transitionplenty of undergrad physics majors doing electronic designthe bulk of programming in practice today is still more craft than "Computer Science"

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 04:37:14 pm
content: The question is , to do what ,i will hire someone without a EE degree for soldering and handwork for sure,a qualified technician for repair troubleshooting,and sure you will hire no less than an engineer for design.so yes i will, an EE related company is not only about design and electronic theory.and am talking about medium to large company business, in small design company well an engineer have to do all of that

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 04:40:48 pm
content: It all depends from the nature of the job and in some cases the law of each country. Lets say your company makes control boards for machinery. Some of the boards gets to fail in a way the machine could heart someone. Upon the investigation it is made clear that a person without a degree in EE was involved in the failed boards...Alexander.

author: JohnnyBerg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 04:49:01 pm
content: In my country (the Netherlands) law protects employees to the extreme. Thats why there is very little hiring and a lot of subcontracting. A lot of people who where employed run now a company with only 1 man staff. We call it ZZP

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 05:36:43 pm
content: Quote from: Yansi on February 07, 2015, 01:41:45 pmMy question would be "would you employ a person that couldn't demonstrate the specific skills required for the specific job?". So, during the interview I would ask the person questions that are relevant to the specific job, and see how they answer them.If those specific questions are principally theoretical then it is more likely a person with a good academic background will give good answers. Examples: what is the significance of covariance and contravariance in OOP and the design of a good API, or under what conditions would you prefer a DSSS / SFHSS / FFHSS / ODFM / PSK modulation schemes, or what is the principal figure-of-merit for different cellular radio systems, and why?If those specific questions are principally practical then it is more likely a person with a good practical background will give good answers. Examples: a customer is reporting an equipment fault so what would you do, or there are tombstoning problems on the PCB so what should we change.It seems blindingly obvious that hiring a paractical/theoretical person to do a theoretical/practical hob is dimwitted.Academic snobbery is as foolish as academic anti-snobbery, or is that "anti-academic snobbery"?Of course, you do occasionally come across individuals that can, to pick an example from my background someone that canauthoratativelydiscuss anything to to with radar systems, from cockpit HMI, through processing algorithms, through RF frontend semiconductor physics, to antenna design. But they are rare, unfortunately.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 05:47:05 pm
content: It depends so much on the job and the person you want to hire.In my opinion, a successful hire has to fulfill three things:1. He has to have Knowledge to get the job done2. He has to have the skills to apply the knowledge3. He has to have a right attitude about the work.I put these three requirements any day above a degree.If he has a degree and can not fulfill any of my above requirements, how could he perform the task?I have hired people with and without degrees.It really depends on the person itself and nothing else.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 05:50:55 pm
content: Yes and no.A degree provides very valuable experience. However, I would also take proof of previous work completed, a portfolio of sorts, if someone did not have a degree. I would treat someone without a degree with more scrutiny on the theory side.It is hard to get the previous work portfolio without a degree though...

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 05:59:19 pm
content: f5r5e5d, those things you've listed, you think are the essential theoretical background, which average EE student will get from his school, backed by his degree? That's rather courageous to assume I think, but not impossible. Thanx for opinion.hamdi.tnok, I get it.firewalker:"Upon the investigation it is made clear that a person without a degree in EE was involved in the failed boards..."- And then what? Having a degree means the board couldn't fail or is it an excuse for not being executed? Wtf? I don't understand your example.JohnnyBerg: What kind of extreme protection do you mean?mojo-chan:"...you do have to wonder why a young and talented engineer wouldn't just get one".I'd rather not go deep into my subjective opinions about our local education and school system... but getting EE degree here is no more about electronics. The practical side of the thing almost dissapeared. So it is absolutely normal here, that a EE graduate can't solve a simple circuit with LED and transistor switch or even simplier thing with switch and a bulb. Maybe I got wrong what the purpose of EE college is.Don't be angry on me, I'm still trying to understand how the world we live in works, cause I can't.

author: MFX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 06:12:32 pm
content: In my office of 9 people (A small self contained unit inside a larger company) only two have degrees, the boss and a sub-contractor programmer. Everyone else was hired purely on ability, between us we do everything from IT support, software development, electronic repair and design. The line up :-Dave the overall boss, Engineering degree, ran his own business for a while.Mick Engineering manager, was a bus driver then moved into software development, now mixes that with managing.Mark Project manager and database management/programming not sure of his history but has recently done an OU degree for his own amusement.Shami, has a Degree, contract programmer.Tony the hippy, programmer, came from the games industry originally.Simon, programmer, customer support and some PCB and electronics design.Rama, original one of our field techs but now IT support.Adam, worked his way up through the ranks of a high street phone shop to area manager, now does Web development.Me, Repair, fault investigation, PCB design, Electronic design and some programming.

author: JohnnyBerg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 06:20:31 pm
content: Quote from: Yansi on February 07, 2015, 05:59:19 pmWhen you hire someone, you cannot fire him.When your employee get injured (break a leg when he/she is skiing on a holiday for example), you have to pay his wages and taxes for 2 years. And more of this stuff ..

author: owiecc
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 06:53:13 pm
content: The answer the original question: yes, of course. However, I'd have to test the qualifications myself. This is time consuming if you need to test many applicants. When I see a degree I can at least expect certain level of expertise in the relevant field. Universities are there to provide systematic knowledge and should aid in students' learning. They can asses the process of learning. Degree is just a certificate saying this person attended the university, followed classes and did projects. It contains the assessment of student's performance. As a recruiter a lot of assessment is done for me.However, I admit that people may get the knowledge and skills without the aid of university. There was even an idea in France that anyone can come to the university and take the exams (without being a student) and get a grade. This way anyone can get certified with a degree if they feel they need it and they have the skills.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 07:05:02 pm
content: QuoteSocial costs.The employees are so protected that no one is willing to hire him/her,

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 07:05:50 pm
content: sometimes, schools overteach theory. there's only so much time in one's life (esp. in college years) and you have to think about what areas you think are going to be useful, later on.how much breadth vs how much depth?do you want someone who can do the maths (which often are not needed for a lot of designs) or do you want someone who can build things with his hands? often those are not the same *kind* of person.if someone has a masters or phd, I'm automatically suspicious of them, if I need a BUILDER.similarly, if the project does require textbook math skills, I would not hire a builder-type person.also realize that we are not islands. the ability of someone to know when they are out of their league and ask for help; or do some research is more important than having a complete bag of tricks (which won't ever be complete, btw, you just think you're complete with a sheepskin).there are many times that I have run out of 'steam' in my background (I'm mostly self taught) and yet, I can glean a lot from others' works and I can ask good questions and GET the answers. I might not fully understand all the answers, but I can certainly implement, test, value and repeat that process to get to the destination.one key item today is: JIT. just in time learning. in software, you HAVE to do that; there's no way you can be 'all things to all people' in software. I think its also true in hardware. there's just too much going on and too many directions in these fields. so, ability to know what you know, what you *dont* know, and not being ashamed to ask for help or sub-out some tasks.but all else being equal, I'll happily work with a self-starter over a sheepskin guy almost any day. I have not ever run into a software problem that *required* a comp-sci degree; and a lot of hardware design is paint-by-numbers (like software; its module and subsystem based) and so you really don't need to know how chips are made to be able to apply them in real world situations.tl;dr: the person matters. degrees only impress those who are part of the same club.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 07:13:19 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 07, 2015, 07:05:02 pmA lot of companies hire staff in Holland. Seems to be not so bad after all.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 07:14:44 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on February 07, 2015, 02:00:03 pmThat was funny.Now for my predictable response:A couple of years ago, my company hired 2 freshly degreed engineers from a respectable school. The expectations were fairly low. Even with appropriate expectations, it was still a rather disappointing experience. They both had great grades and interviewed very well. I later started to understand the problems.1. The degree offers false confidence. It takes a lot of effort to get an EE degree, so how could you NOT be a near genius when you graduate? Right? So these guys came in with quite a swagger which led to blaming of anything and everything but themselves for poorly performing circuits. They would blame ESD because the bench was not setup right. They would blame "errors" in data sheets. Hopeless.2. They got engineering degrees because they wanted a good job, not because they were passionate about engineering. This may be workable in a large scale operation where the company needs robots to mindlessly setup typical and normal engineering chores. In my world, we invent new things and it is mandatory to have people that are simply excited about what they do and get a kick out applying engineering skills to solve a problem that no one has solved before.On the other hand, I have worked with hacker self-taught types that also sound great at interview time but have failed when thrown into the fire. In this case it is because they have quilted knowledge from various sources which makes it hard for them to go about engineering in a way that anyone else can follow. When they get stuck, it can be very hard for anyone to help because they go about things in such an unconventional way. It's very hard to know what is going to happen.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 07:22:08 pm
content: that reminds me of the 'certification mills' (india comes to mind, sorry to say) where people spend a LOT of time getting certs - and mostly its all about memorization. I see it all the time. people who skate thru school because they have good memories and can cram for the exam, well.a year later, they have no idea what they studied and can't apply it to save their lives."but I have a java cert!"worthless. I've seen your java code. and I don't want it. you think that being able to memorize an algorithm makes you valuable? and the fact that I don't memorize that stuff makes me less? oh really?same with hardware. passing school means you can pass school. living in the real world is quite another thing.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 07:25:15 pm
content: QuoteYou are right: jobs growth in Holland is exploding,

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 07:36:57 pm
content: Unemployment is falling in Holland...Zero job growth not always bad. Given the current state of the European economy, most economies would take zero growth happily.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 08:03:02 pm
content: Firstly I'd look at where they got the degree. If it's a university or college that is well known then no problem, if it's a place I have never heard of then maybe some investigation is required just in case they are a degree factory.If they have a degree then they get a practical test, perhaps remove an IC from a working board and then solder it back in, or maybe a bit of fault finding. If they don't have a degree then they get a theory test, compute the output of an opamp given known input levels and component values, then the resonant frequency of an LC network, and finally the output of a circuit using standard logic gates.I used to work for an elevator manufacturer. ALL candidates for field service positions got a height test to make sure they could safely handle elevator shafts, fail that and there was no point continuing.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 08:15:23 pm
content: A degree is just an indication that someone is capable of learning. To treat it as any more than that is careless.To treat someone without a degree as in some way better is even more careless.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 08:34:03 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on February 07, 2015, 08:03:02 pmWould be really nice, if they all have used tests like you.Mmm.. how's height test being made?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 08:57:44 pm
content: QuoteThat sounds like a good test for a highschool equivalent degree.

author: DIPLover
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 09:21:04 pm
content: Around here it's easy.If you have no degree and are not a member of the order of engineers, you cannot call yourself an engineer, nor work as an engineer, nor sign or approve plans.So you do your 4 years of study and get a degree. This lets you enter the workforce as a Junior Engineer, in a position where you must be supervised by a full (or senior) engineer for 3 years. Then you can pass your exam and become a full engineer on your own. Practicing engineers thus have a responsibility to help develop the knowledge and skills of the next generation and not just academics.A Master's Degree or Ph.D. will reduce the junior period by a year (and will also generally open up doors to positions in R&D instead of testing but that's another matter).So to answer your original question, I would only ever hire degreed engineers. Seniors are usually quite good but will cost you more. Gifted juniors and coop students can be a bargain, but you will need at least one full engineer on staff to guide/supervise them.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 10:52:34 pm
content: People who denigrate those who have degrees because they themselves don't have one, are as bad as those who denigrate those who don't have a degree because they themselves have one. I have seen both examples in the workplace over the years.Yes, I would hire a person without a degree as an electronics engineer if they are made of the right stuff (for the argument, I do have an engineering degree). Many people without degrees have made excellent engineers over the years. But there is one thing an engineering degree does provide which is very important:CONTROL THEORY. Control theory is one of the most useful tools taught in an engineering degree course and it paves the way to good design in everything... from business processes to op-amps.I would not hire anyone as an electronics engineer if they did not have a personal passion for electronics. That wipes out many people from certain backgrounds who get their degree primarily for cultural status reasons, or those who got a degree only as a means to get a high paying job. I look for boffins. At an interview, I always what electronics people do at home and test their knowledge. It is a gauge of their genuine interest in the craft.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 11:06:19 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 07, 2015, 10:52:34 pmThe passion is the key IMO.Personal shortcomings are overcome if passion exists.But intelligence & IQ are required to push oneself forward.Demonstation of maths ability is paramount.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 11:23:13 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 07, 2015, 10:52:34 pmI used to think that too but I had to admit I was wrong early on in my career. At one point my boss informed me we would have an intern (EE BS level) for a final project. When he came over to introduce himself we could hear his car (or better said: the sound system) a mile away. His attitude didn't show he cared much about anything and he didn't do anything with electronics at home. Long story short: he made something very complicated and finished it even though he had to switch to an entirely different method half way the project. Quite an achievement!In my experience the only way to figure out if someone fits the job description is to have him/her do take a test to see if they master the basic knowledge (a degree is not a proof of that) and then give them a temporary contract for a couple of months. That will learn if someone is interested in their job and what his/her potential is. There are too many variables to tell if someone is suitable for a job or not by just ticking items of a list in 10 minutes.I do agree that people with a degree often have more tools like math and structured approaches to solving problems than the self taught people. I'm inclined to choose someone with a degree over a self taught person because I've seen the mess the self taught people can make. I've also dealt with several self taught people who would have been able to take their talents to much higher levels than they are achieving now. Just like a diamond needs cutting and polishing in order to really shine.edit: typo

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 11:38:59 pm
content: QuoteOK. Let's do an experiment:Problem: you run a match factory where matches are put into match boxes on a conveyor belt. If the boxes are not fully filled, customers complain and you run the risk of losing your business. So you need to come up with a way to identify and eliminate such boxes.You have general freedom to come up with whatever solution you think may solve the problem.The simplest / lowest cost one wins.State your solution and your degree.I have a solution and I am a highschool dropout.BTW, this was a real-life problem.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 11:44:45 pm
content: In IT it seems like it is full of people with political science and psychology degrees.So politically motivated and crazy people.As I'm still working on my degree and it will be IT in nature I won't fall into either category.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 11:46:55 pm
content: I am almost at retirement age. I have two pieces of paper decorating my office wall.. a BE in Elec eng and a more recent ( 12 year old post grad dipin IT).By law I may not call myself an engineer in Queensland.Across the border in any other state of Australia yes I am recognised as an engineer.Here in Queensland of recent time I need to be interrogated and certified as an engineer. As an engineer in Australia I am personally responsible for work I do and may be charged with manslaughter in case there is a work place related death.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 12:00:29 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 07, 2015, 11:38:59 pmThat, of course, is a completely unhelpful and irrelevant response. Why? because you deliberately snipped the authors caveats and counter examples. Your response was to a strawman argument that you had constructed. Very unimpressive. It is almost as if you have a big chip on your shoulder.So, whatwasyour purpose in snipping and then responding?

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 12:14:53 am
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on February 07, 2015, 11:46:55 pmGiven the dwindling mining sector and ensuing oversupply of labour a good national infrastructure project would be to dig a large moat around Queensland and declaring it an independent nation

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 12:23:31 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 07, 2015, 11:38:59 pmHere is my solution, after optimization for cost:

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 01:40:35 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 07, 2015, 11:38:59 pmWeigh em on a scale. they should be withing a certain band. this can happen in-line with the production pipe.the 'weighing' doesn't have to be in the classical sense. you can have an airstream blowing sideways. if the box is too light it will be blown sideways further than one with the correct weight.you could even use gravity. simply shoot them off the conveyer at a fixed speed. gravity will do the rest.. put two sorting buckets at different distances.Degree ? Working toward it :Currently in my 23rd study year of a 57 year course (assuming i 'graduate' at 65. i started at roughly 8 with the 100-in-one box) in 'been there , done that, got the stack of burned equipment to prove it' from the 'Real World Design University'And i already know i will do some post-graduation stuff well beyond that. i'll probably stay in that school until i die.Anyone who cannot muster that kind of energy should not deserve the title.As for that piece of paper delivered by certain institutions: every institution has it's own 'rating' system. So you can't really compare.Let me ask you this : you have a pick between 2 'engineers'- one has a degree from MIT or Caltech or Stanford.- the other one from tjiktjikistan school of engineering. which one will you take ?It should not make a difference , but it does... so degrees are not a real 'measure' as they in themselves are measured against each other.This bag of 1kilogram sugar is better than that bag of 1 kilogram sugar because it has a fancier wrapper...Objective measures would be : the actual weight , the purity , the taste and the amount of sand an gravel in it.In the end you may be better of hiring someone who has built his own refinery ...

author: DIPLover
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 01:43:46 am
content: Quote from: zapta on February 08, 2015, 12:23:31 amYou sir, are awesome. You win the internet for today.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 01:48:01 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 07, 2015, 11:38:59 pmHire an assassin to kill off any unhappy customers before they can tell anybody?

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 01:48:47 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 07, 2015, 11:38:59 pmClose your match factory and outsource the making of the matches to some third world country like Bangladesh, India or China where human rights and workplace safety don't matter. The sweatshop labourers can count them manually and their supervisors can do a random sample. The workers get slapped over the head and their meagre pay is docked if there are any matches missing. Lowest cost, maximum profit. The sweatshop factory owner, you and the customers are now all happy.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 01:53:47 am
content: matches ? here, let me introduce to something called a 'lighter' , it's state of the art and will revolutionize fire making forever.Meanwhile some dude wearing a loincloth and a bone through his nose scoffs and goes: white men need complicated shit to make fire. i make fire with two pieces of wood i find. works every time. if white man runs out of matches or gas he no has fire. Me, always fire.who's the 'smart' guy here ?

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 01:59:53 am
content: Another solution:Assuming the box can only carry 50 matches, fill it to the brim and write on the box,"Contents: 47 matches". No more customer complaints.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 02:10:56 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 08, 2015, 01:59:53 amsimply sell them as '1 box of matches'. no weight indicated no count indicated.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 02:22:27 am
content: I'd put a condom in every pack of matches. Usually there is a baby-boom after a long power outage.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 03:02:56 am
content: Another difference between full and non full boxers is the balance (heads are heavier than tails), pass then on and edge and let the full ones (less balanced) fall down.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 05:22:12 am
content: Whether electronics or any other field, what you get from hiring someone with a degree - at least from a reputable university - is the knowledge that they have the ability to work hard and persist at something in the pursuit of learning. And to see it through to the finish. If you're lucky they've also absorbed some relevant knowledge and have had the theoretical basis for their field demystified for them.The last part is an important element of education. For example someone does not need to remember how to differentiate or integrate an equation to have benefited from calculus. But by having learned that once they are no longer intimidated or confused with they see dv/dt or discussion of "the area under the curve".Sure, someone self taught may be just as smart, with just as much or more knowledge and just as hard working, but it will take more effort to determine that.A degree from a good school just assures a certain base level of knowledge and ability to work hard at something and see it through to the finish. Without a degree you don't know that without good references or by hiring them and seeing how it works out.

author: owiecc
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 07:44:10 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 07, 2015, 11:38:59 pmWe can do a counter experiment. This is a real world EE problem: design an active filter to remove certain frequencies from harmonic spectrum of a wind turbine. No hardware mods, only control. Will you do it without a degree?To answer your question I would first go to the factory andobservethe process. Maybe there is a fault somewhere. When I know what causes it I then may prevent it. You get good repeatability either by careful and controlled processes (this may need periodical checking due to aging) or by feedback (weighing, etc.).

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 10:31:25 am
content: The solutions proposed, by well qualified engineers, included a redesigned assembly line, weighing conveyor belt, pick-and-weigh machine, optical scanner, special dye for the matches, ...The winning solution came from a temp worker who overheard the conversation. His solution? Place a fan blowing air at the conveyor belt.QuoteBingo!One smart solution.

author: owiecc
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 10:41:35 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 08, 2015, 10:31:25 amSo the next time the humidity changes in the factory or part of the belt gets greasy or anything else gets changed his solution will fail because it relies on the friction between the box and the belt. Good engineeringBut he was a temp so he will not be there to see when his idea backfires.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 11:15:00 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 08, 2015, 10:31:25 amPotentiallya good use of appropriate technology, if it proves to be reliable.But the anecdote proves precisely nothing about degrees. It is just as easy to produce anecdotes that demonstrate the opposite.BTW,wasthere a good reason that you snipped the caveats from nctnico's thoughtful post, when you introduced this question?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 11:45:15 am
content: dannyf's question, by the way, is a classic urban legend that has been doing the rounds for a while. As originally told it involves a toothpaste factory and empty boxes on the conveyor belt, and possibly before that a soap factory and empty soap boxes.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 11:47:50 am
content: I think it proves that people without degrees can - and I stress,can- be very poor at evaluating proposed solutions to problems.Here we have a suggestion which might possibly form the basis for a good solution, but there's nowhere near enough detail to make a valid assessment. "Let's try using a fan" is the outcome of the very first discussion on the project, not the last, and it's not engineering. Engineering is what comes later, implementing and (above all)quantifyinghow well the solution can be made to work.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 11:55:13 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on February 08, 2015, 11:47:50 amOne commentator when considering possible lessons to be learned from the parable, pointed to a failure by all concerned to look for a root cause. It is one thing to detect and reject empty boxes coming down the line before they get to customers, but why are there empty boxes in the first place? In real life engineers would start asking why the packaging machine is unreliable and would try to fix it.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 12:06:37 pm
content: Do you think it's possible to be formally taught analytical skills, or is it something that comes innately?I've always thought that being able to nuture analytical skills is something that some people are just wired up for better, I can't think of anything I learned on my degree that might made me any better at analysing things than anyone else.Having experience, on the other hand, I'd say would.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 12:26:48 pm
content: -I can't think of anything I learned on my degree that might made me any better at analysing things than anyone else-The answer is yes. Your example shows a poor program. A college, in my view, does threw things for its students1. Learning basic knowledge.2. Learn a structured way to solve problems. They are usually the least efficient way but will always give you a solution.3. Networking.A college can -teach- you 1 and 2. But you are on your own when it comes to 3.There are exceptions to that. For example, hbs is known to teach exclusively on case studies. But networking, for many of the top schools is pretty much the only reason one goes there.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 01:05:23 pm
content: On what can or cannot be taught.I don't think smarts can be taught. You can teach knowledge, even intelligence. But you can't make a dumb person smart. And no amount of degrees can solve that.I think personality LARGELY can not be taught. We are mostly who we are and even those well trained to behave like somebody other than themselves let it slip from time to time.All those riddles are trying to discriminate smarts, and those behavior interview questions to identify personality.

author: TheWelly888
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 01:16:04 pm
content: I work in a hospital repairing medical equipment. We had a vacancy for a technician recently, one candidate turned up for the interview with TWO degrees both related to engineering yet when he was tested on wiring a mains plug, he took 20 minutes to wire the plug and wired the earth wire to the LIVE (hot) pin!!!! Additionally there were lots of exposed conductors in that plugTwo degrees is way over-qualified for that particular job so why did that candidate apply knowing he had limited practical experience?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 01:19:54 pm
content: -why did that candidate apply knowing he had limited practical experience?-Maybe he's a professional student? Those people can't deal with the reality so they bury themselves in the pursuit of degrees and certifications.

author: TheWelly888
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 01:28:38 pm
content: I did not meet that candidate so I cannot give any handle.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 04:54:10 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on February 08, 2015, 12:36:07 pmOh yes, I've seen that. There is an alternative: play with the interviewer by answering the question in all sorts of waysexceptthe one they are thinking ofOnce, many years ago I was asked how I would, when building the Egypitan pyramids, I would measure the duration of a workers shift. After about 5 minutes he asked if I knew the answer he was expecting (a glorified egg-timer), and I admitted I did.Yes, I had been inspired by "The Barometer Question" (the 1968 Saturday Review variant)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barometer_question

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 05:15:27 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 08, 2015, 10:31:25 amYay ! point proven. i don't have a degree

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 05:30:43 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 08, 2015, 12:26:48 pmThis is a problem. if every one tackles a problem the same way you will never discover something 'outside the box' because everyone is conditioned the same way.Here is a , at first sight, simple question where you can weed out people who have just a degree , and people who have actually built something 'outside school' or have some real experience designing stuff. The been there done that, burnt my fingers , got it working learned a lot kinda people.Simple opamp, inverting amplifier. 9k from out to + , 1k from + to gnd. ( so gain of 10 )5 volt power rail.2vpp sinewave ininitially we assume bandwidth is not a problemThe theoretical guys ALL get it wrong. even a lot of the guys that have built stuff get it wrong.here is where they fail- clipping against power rail because too large gain- clipping of the input because the input goes below ground and the opamp- fail to ask if this thing is rail to rail on input and or output- fail to ask if common mode includes ground and if not how high it sits off groundwhen they finally struggle through this and get a signal out i will drill deeper and ask em thisassuming the output stays within the rails ( i lower the input amplitude or decrease the gain )q: what will happen if this opamp is bandwidth limited and you approach the bandwidth.- they mostly know the output amplitude will drop. but almost all of em fail to mention the phase shift and even phase inversion.these are fundamental things that you should know when mucking about with opamps. even before you start calculating anything you need to do a 'sanity check'. the calculation follows later when you tinker with the details to get it 'right'. First make sure it has a chance of working at allAs for why so many people with degrees show up for jobs they are 'overqualified for' .. because they can't get the job they 'think' goes with the degree.Degrees are good for some really cool jobs, but- there are only so many openings ( for every degreed engineer you need 10 that do the gruntwork )- when chosing between someone with a degree and someone with a degree + 2 years experience or someone with 20 years experience and proven track record the newly minted doesn't have a chance. this is a chicken and egg problem: Need experience but cant get experience because doesn't have experience ... very few companies are willing to train their people and let them make mistakes. it's a dog eat dog world and whoever gets the stuff to market first makes money. the rest are just 'followers'. the harsh reality.and then there is this attitude as well ( the degreed people are spoon-fed the notion that they are better. this is a fact in a lot of universities. )double phd shows up at foreman's trailer on a construction site. foreman says : well we really need to move that pile of dirt out of here, grab a shovel and help the guys out loading it up in the dump truck. Bit sir, i have a double PHD ... in that case, lemme explain it again to you....Sometimes stuff just needs to be done. and it doesn't matter what degree you have.i remember years ago in our office in brussels. some bigwig from headquarters was going to come in the next day. we were ALL instructed to clean our desks, wash the windows , hide all oose paper in cabinets. There were a couple of phd's that were kinda complaining that that wasn't really their work and why could we not get a cleaning crew in there. the short answer was : this was just announced and he was going to be here tomorrow. if we all cleaned our desk for an hour the place would be spotless. some kept murmuring. they got the bucket with water and sponge to wash the windows.moral of the story( true story) : sometimes everyone has to shovel shit. If you can't work together degreed and non degreed and even outside your terrain ... you are useless to the company.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 05:38:07 pm
content: That has nothing to do with "outside the box", it's just a different amount of experience. You're basically claiming that people with more experience have more experience, which is a useless tautology...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 05:42:02 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 08, 2015, 05:30:43 pmYou are showing your ignorance, and, are - notably - thinkinginsidethe box!Your ignorance is in terms ofclearly never having worked in a research and development environment; if you had you would realise that your statements are very wide of the marknot have seennor conceived ofthe different techniques that can be used to help people think out of the box

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 05:42:11 pm
content: In my experience (UK experience) the great majority of microwave engineers don't have degrees in electronics. They have degrees in physics.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 05:47:04 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 08, 2015, 05:42:11 pmIn 25 years of working in RF and microwave electronics in the UK, I know three with a physics degree and about 100 with electronics degrees. Two of the three with physics degrees were among the worst engineers I've ever encountered. The third was one of the best.

author: Rory
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 05:50:47 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 08, 2015, 05:30:43 pmI would have forgotten about the phase effects at the bandwidth limits. Yes, it's there in the book and some of the app notes if you look for it, but it would not have come into mind because I've never had the need to push a particular device to that limit - the gain bandwidth product and slew rate of the amp tells me whether or not it is suitable for my application and I choose a device that is suitable, and if the frequency is too high then discretes or MMIC is required.And I do not claim to be an engineer. My parents were married when I was born.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 05:56:03 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 08, 2015, 05:15:27 pmBut only a valid solution for spherical matchboxes in a vacuum.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 06:01:33 pm
content: I have received a few queries about the test given to prospective elevator service engineers. The person concerned is taken by another engineer to floor ten (about 30m/100Ft) in an elevator and then both people exit via the roof hatch into the shaft. They attach to the inspection ladder using their safety harnesses and then the elevator descends under control to the basement. The engineer accompanying the candidate is expected to judge at that point if they are suitable for the job.Done right an elevator shaft is a safe working environment, parachute jumpers and bungee jumpers scare me rigid each time I see them.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 06:05:19 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on February 07, 2015, 08:03:02 pmQuote from: German_EE on February 08, 2015, 06:01:33 pmOK, I now understand. It is not a test of the candidate's height, it is a test of the candidate's "head for heights"

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 06:10:09 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 08, 2015, 05:30:43 pmI worked one on a system that requires graphical user interface that involved navigable panoramas so we found a programmer that had experience with Flash. Since I have some formal education in math I offer my help with 'the math' but he said that he will try to tackled it himself first and indeed he did a very good job. Later I found that he has a Ph.D. math from Yale.I know great (software) engineers, many of them have advanced degrees from top universities, so I don't understand the stereotypes and eduphobia here.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 06:27:14 pm
content: QuoteYes and no.The schools' job is to teach their students for a skill so they can make a living. Thus they will need the technique to be "teachable" and then to always yield the right answer. So it needs to be "generic" and "correct". That means that it has to be structured and it is necessarily inefficient for the cases such technique is applied to.An out-of-the-box solution is not teachable nor does it always yield a solution.QuoteMaybe they are taught that but only the stupid degreed people remember that.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 06:54:55 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 08, 2015, 05:30:43 pmIn my own experience it's undergrad* students who are so convinced they're better than everybody else, well generally until they hit their final year.*I don't know if any EE degrees are integrated masters...

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 07:16:31 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron link=topic=42676.msg604916#msg604916I find it surprising that an EE would not be able to answer that correctly. Even as someone relatively new to electronics I knew it. In fact both of the introductory (online) college electronics courses I have taken cover this ground well.Perhaps farther into an EE degree one forgets the fundamentals? Probably especially true if one is not actually building things...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 07:21:33 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on February 08, 2015, 06:10:09 pmJust so.QuoteSometimes the eduphobia is indistinguishable from a massive chip on the shoulder. And that's just as silly and bigoted as presuming a degree is essential.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 07:34:02 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 08, 2015, 05:30:43 pmI don't think spoon-fed is the right term since that usually refers to feeding some one complex information by breaking it down and giving it to them bit by bit. The idea that my [insert relevant group identity here] is better than others is a pretty simple concept and unfortunately way too common.I think what this thread demonstrates is that everyone approaches this question with their own experience and developed stereotypes. It's an insight into human prejudices and how they develop.Those pursuing an EE degree spend most of their time among other EE's and have a vested interest in thinking their degree is worth the money and time they devote to it. And it is- but it's just one path (the most common one) to their destination.Depending on their job experience out of college and who they work with, they may or may not soon learn that the real world is a much broader place and that degree or not, what matters is being able to get the job done. This applies to many fields - not just engineering.Then of course there's those without formal education - self taught - who excel in their chosen field and therefore conclude that degrees are not necessary (or useless!).Someof them may end up with a chip on their shoulder due to the real or perceived discrimination they've had to deal with.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 07:35:34 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 08, 2015, 07:21:33 pmHa! looks like we were cross posting and making the same point.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 07:49:28 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on February 08, 2015, 12:06:37 pmI think some analytical skills are probably teachable but overall analytical aptitude is largely innate IMO. Anyone with more than one child sees first hand how different kids seem to be born with certain abilities. Of course it does take some basic level of education and opportunity to allow those abilities to flourish.Testing someone's analytical abilities is difficult but I don't think it is impossible.Urban legend type "match box assembly line" questions aside, I don't think it can easily be determined in a typical job interview. I also don't think the typical undergraduate degree says much about that ability since anyone with average intelligence who is willing to work hard and persist can get a degree. This is where previous job experience and good references can help.There's a whole body of psychology devoted to quantifying and testing for such things.Anyone in the US who has taken the GRE (graduate school entrance exam) has experienced the "analytical" section of the test which , while not perfect, I think does a pretty good job of evaluating that ability - although it may have changed in the 30 years since I took it.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 08:02:49 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on February 08, 2015, 07:16:31 pmBINGO !indeed , they are shown this in their first year, but if you never build an actual circuit you will forget those things. that is how you weed out the 'paper only' candidates from the people that got the degree because they were interested in the engineering bit as opposed to the 'prestige and money' bit... There is a difference between being able to write down Maxwell's equations and being able to place parts so you don't get radiated emc problems.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 08:09:30 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 08, 2015, 05:42:02 pm23 year track record in semiconductor lab. it doesn't get much more hardcore than that...i can give you oodles of 'outside the box' thinking .. like using laser focus light in a darkroom under a microscope to pinpoint the leaky pathway inside a chip.Quotethat i would be very much interested in. outside the box thinking is the only way to make mayor progress. rewashing something that already exists gets you nowhere.pointers please ?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 09:13:39 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 08, 2015, 08:02:49 pmThe difficulty of sorting out the "interested" from the "seems like a good career" types is something that has to be done for whether or not a degree is involved.Fit the skills to the job at hand.Don't pigeonhole someone based on the presence/absence of a piece of paper.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 09:26:07 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 08, 2015, 08:09:30 pmI've been on several courses in companies such as CCL and HPLabs, but the names are long forgotten. They were pre-www, so links aren't obviously available. The key features were firstly to ensure that all participants weren't afraid of making stupid suggestions, then several phases for re-defining the problem, then makking all sorts of wacky suggestions in a non-judgemental situation. During each phase the "problem owner" kept their mouth shut, but between phases they could choose which set of ideas to discard/persue.To give a flavour of such techniques, one of my favoured questions when an unproductive lull had been reached was "how would you do it with yoghurt?". It usually provoked a WTF reaction, but one person in the meeting would have their thinking jolted to think about how fat or strawberries or liquid or plastic or a pot (or ...) could help solve the problem.Wacky? Yes.Effective? Sometimes but not always.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 09:30:45 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 08, 2015, 08:09:30 pmAre these the typical achievements of non academic EE practitioners or is it just an anecdotal outlier? You get the point.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 11:52:57 pm
content: QuoteOn one of those fortune cookies, I read something like this: A wise man knows how much he doesn't know.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 06:07:22 am
content: Quote from: zapta on February 08, 2015, 09:30:45 pmi had at least 15 collegues from all walks of life that had no 'paper' apart from the school of hard-knocks. One was a butcher... one lady learned finished college with french literature had two kids at age 18, went to mexico with a bunch of hippies, learned how to fix tv's from her husband did all kinds of stuff and retired at age 76 as head of a validation team that did signoff and final test of the RTL code for multimillion gate asics. Se could write VHDL and Verilog like the best of em. completely self taught.i know a bunch of such people. They may not be 'typical' non degreed EE's but there is way more of em than you may think.I've seen all kinds: degreed and non degreed and my experience is : that paper proves nothing, apart form the fact you fit the requirements to get the paper.It does not tell me if you are genuinely interested in engineering at all , it does not tell me if you have brilliant idea's, it does not give me an indication of how creative you are ,it does not tell me how many things you have done on your own and built that were original.It only tells me you belong to a group of people that followed a 4 year course and held it up till the finish line. Of course it does not preclude you having brilliant idea's or being a super creative person , but that paper does not guarantee that. Just like not having that paper doesn't preclude the same.So if i am after someone who has original idea's and is a super creative mind to further my business that paper is irelevant.If all i need is someone who can do a bunch of math i'll go get someone from the 'degree' pool. Maybe a mathematician.Now, your experience may vary , and i don't know how it goes in 99% of the world but i can tell you this : come apply for a job in silicon valley and look around at what 'characters' are around here, and do a couple of job interviews .Before i switched jobs half a year ago i did several interviews with different companies. Here's how it went : I walked in with a huge cardboard box with all the circuit boards i had made in my life, and samples of actual products that were in the stores that had my designs in em and copies of my published works. I would pour the contents on the table in the meeting room and wait for the interviewers to come in.NOBODY ever asked if i had a degree and what it was. They were to busy digging in the pile of stuff.One company showed me a bunch of their schematics and asked me if i could tell what the circuitry did. i looked at it for a few minutes and pointed out 7 or 8 mistakes in their design.They asked me again if i could tell what the circuit did. i said ,yes , something that ain't going to be working quite right. they laughed and admitted those schematics were from a prototype before they debugged it and had found the issues i pointed out as well. And then i explained them in detail what that circuit did , how they could improve it and make it cheaper. At that point there was only one further questions: Not about education , not about degrees , just when i could start.Everyone of the companies i interviewed with had an offer on the table within a few days. Only one HR guy remarked that i hadn't listed any university or degree on my resume. I asked him if that was a problem. He said no ,cause none of the interviewers had asked about it, it was just something that he found odd.I've always worked in companies where nobody thought any less of another because of a lacking piece of paper. Show what you can do, don't tell me.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 09:40:27 am
content: Quote from: KJDS on February 08, 2015, 05:47:04 pmInteresting. Back in the early 80s I went to a large number of electronics engineers of various types looking for members of the IEE. Almost every microwave engineer I asked had a physics degree, and at that time they were not eligible for a simple route to IEE membership.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 09:56:14 am
content: Times have changed quite a bit, 30, 40 years back it wasn't the most important thing to have the degree. You would also work for the same company for a long time and you would have opportunities to advance based on your performance.Then those companies go bankrupt or close business, you get kicked out. In this now newer world it seems that papers (anything that proves your education or experience) are all that matter. I don't know if it is because a lot more people have a degree than back in the days, so expectations have just gone up, or if it is a pay thing. In Germany it is very common that you will not be paid an engineer's wage if you don't actually are an engineer. You might not even be considered for the job (unless you have an exceptional wealth of experience to display).Would I employ someone without a degree? Yes. There are plenty of electronics related vocational educations that are very good for many kinds of jobs. And even if you require a degree, it doesn't have to be a master, a B.Eng (not B.Sc) is not too hard to obtain either. I guess it's a question of outlining the skill set that you require from your worker. If you think general knowledge in circuits is enough (repairs, simple designs) you may not require someone with a degree.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 10:04:44 am
content: Quote from: Neganur on February 09, 2015, 09:56:14 amMaybe things vary form country to country, but 40 years ago in the UK a bachelor degree was the basic requirement to be considered for any decent engineering job. Very few UK engineers went for a higher degree at that time.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 10:15:33 am
content: As a professional engineer I would not accept a job in which a non professional engineer was the manager.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 10:26:17 am
content: Quote from: coppice on February 09, 2015, 10:04:44 amPretty true.Those without degrees, but with ONC/OND/HND/HNC (IIRC!) or apprenticeships, became technicians. Both were necessary, with each's disadvantages being covered by the other's advantages. Both knew it.All doctors know how much they owe to nurses just after they graduate, and also rely on nurses day-to-day. There is some overlap between what nurses and doctors can do - but only a blind fool thinks a nurse is competent to do everything a doctor can do.There are sufficient similarities between the engineer:technician and doctor:nurse relationsips to make the analogy have some value.

author: electrolux
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 10:38:35 am
content: I don't care for degrees, if the person has potential or is clever, yes.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 10:47:04 am
content: Quote from: coppice on February 09, 2015, 10:04:44 amWell my point was, that those technicians, after 20 years, have advanced their career into positions that nowadays would require the degree.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 01:48:31 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on February 08, 2015, 03:02:56 amThe main difference between full and non-full boxers in my experience is whether or not the person wearing them has passed out drunk after a large meal.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 02:02:45 pm
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on February 09, 2015, 10:15:33 amWhy not ? What is the role of a manager ?A manager is there to schedule the workload and to make sure the people doing the work have the resources to do so. If he understands what the people under his management do that is a bonus.A good manager does not make technical decisions unless there is a duality.Maybe you misunderstand what managing is. Understandable as too many managers are not really managers.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 02:39:27 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 09, 2015, 02:02:45 pmDo you get the case in proper engineering like in software development when the person carrying the title of "project manager" is often really the project lead?

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 03:05:36 pm
content: in today's 'agile environment', the manager is not *supposed* to be the project leader or tech leader. he's not even supposed to vote on features; the group does that and also sets their own priorities.in software, everyone is (sigh) moving to agile style instead of waterfall style. is that also happening in the hardware/EE world, as well? if it is not, it will be (like it or not; and I actually don't love agile, truth be told).

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 03:25:51 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on February 09, 2015, 03:05:36 pmThese are the two extremes, most people use something in between.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 04:25:42 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on February 09, 2015, 02:39:27 pmI do t know anything about software. We are talking EE here, those do hardware. Where i have worked in my life the project manager is different from the project lead. The manager makes sure that time criteria are met, goes and fights for resources, fab slots and all the other stuff so that the actual designers can design and are not encumbered in paperwork.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 05:06:46 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 09, 2015, 04:25:42 pmThat's why I asked lol.QuoteWhich makes sense and in an ideal world is how things should be. But I know in the small companies I've seen, and some medium ones, people further up the hierarchy have to wear many hats. Which makes sense as a big "medium enterprise" is 250 people and $50 million turnover max. And I can imagine a quarter of a century in a silicon lab means you haven't had much experience working in SMEs?Now I can see why employers might be more prepared to put the extra stress on software than hardware people, so maybe even small companies will see the value in giving them a dedicated manager. But if they're not and that's the background IconicPCB is coming from I thought maybe that's why they'd be dubious about a project manager who wasn't an engineer.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 05:48:54 pm
content: I dont want to work for small companies, unless i am the boss.There is never enough resources to get anything done. You can never get the stuff you want due to budget retrictions and the supiers don't wanna talk to you as you are only little fry. You never get to play with the really cool stuff.I've stayed awayfrom those, unless they are different. But most of em fall in the category of 'started because the boss want to drive a beemer and the footfolk do the gruntwork.Not interested.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 06:31:09 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 09, 2015, 06:07:22 amIf you don't have a clue what the problem is, and you don't have the money to hire a freelancer or expert, write a job opening :-)

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 07:16:04 pm
content: > Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?I would, and have. The hiring decision is made by do I believe the candidate can perform? A degree is one way to show it, but there are others. However, having a degree is in itself valuable to the company, so someone with a degree gets paid more for the same job because of that. Why?Message to customer: "Your project is very important to us, and we put our brightest people on it, Ph.D. Mary A and M.S. John B." vs. "Your project is very important to us, and we put our brightest people on it, Mary A, a student in UoBS and John B. who is very smart."

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 08:08:43 pm
content: I am sorry. I cant hear you over the rumble of my successful electronics business with my non degreed ears!OR IN OTHER WORDSEverybody must find their own way. Some things require a degree for liability purposes. Many do not. Personally I looked at a Uni as a waste of 4 years, and I just dove into work. It got the the down payment for a house! I however had opportunities many people did not have, and was already in a position where I know what skills I was going to need and found them on my own. If i were in a Uni program I know I would have just floundered and failed because I would have just been doing my own design work anyways and not paying attention to classes. I used to give talks to college students actually about electronics manufacturing while being student aged myself because I grew up in that sort of business. Again. I had advantages. For those who are already goal oriented and enjoy electronics as a hobby I would say getting a degree is not a necessity. Your work output will speak for itself and you will most likely not be happy in a work place that puts certification and paper qualifications ahead of genuine enthusiasm and inventive problem solving. Also experience and knowledge of the market and how to get things done. And for those of you complaining about how do you get experience without being employed. There is this magic thing called the internet that will pretty much show you everything you need to know about how things get done. The rest is just personal experience, and if you are lazy or not interested in how things really work in the world and business, you have already failed before you even began.I know I got off point there, but I think it goes along with this thread.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 08:27:38 pm
content: It strikes me this whole topic is about as useful as, in a different sphere, asking "would you employ someone without a medical degree?"It is well known that newly-graduated doctors rely very heavily on nurses particularly in their early days, see very humourous first-hand examples athttps://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XxcjAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT201&lpg=PT201&dq=%22phil+hammond%22+nurse+needle+in+vein&source=bl&ots=L7wauIs7Pu&sig=UwGmQPdnqm9BPlX107WbVOT-osw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GhXZVMPYOqWi7AbSvoH4CA&redir_esc=yYes, the nurses (illegally) inserted needles because the newly graduated doctor couldn't. The doctor made the tea and got the credit for inserting the needlesBut does that mean that the doctor's qualification is a waste of time that should be ignored? Of course not, unless you are a nurse with an enormous chip on your shoulder.Personally, if I have a kidney problem, I'm going to want it diagnosed and treated by a doctor, not a nurse.If I need to have a barb removed from my finger, or have my leg plastered, I'd prefer a nurse to do it.Any dissenting views?Oh yes, nurses can probably run medical businesses as well as doctors, if not better. Shrug. Big deal. (Particularly since most doctorsactively don'twant to run businesses: they want to cure patients.) Doesn't change who I want to diagnose/treat my child's problems.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 09:27:13 pm
content: The difference here is every state has a governing board of directors who says who can be a practicing physician and who cant. Just because you have a doctor before your last name does not mean you can legally treat somebody. There are analogs in engineering in certain fields. I have however met many many engineers who are degreed and do not have the skills to troubleshoot certain pieces of equipment, and others who have no degree and I could think of nobody better to repair a certain system. Many of the best engine builders in the country are not ASE certified, but i could think of none better to build me an engine.Also I have never met an electrical contractor qualified to design and install a PV solar system. But thats a different story.A specific example I have encountered. Twice. Local radio stations hired engineers to maintain transmitter sites. Both sites could not be made to conform to FCC requirements. Both sites re designed and rebuilt by old experienced hams. Both with no degrees but a whole lifetime of RF electronics knowledge. Both sites still running decades later. Both men still on call for work at the stations.Not every situation is the same.I am actually currently looking to hire another engineer. If they can write in assembly, use Eagle or can learn it in a few days (I did), troubleshoot a pcb, and have that all important factor that school cannot teach of, i can feel something is wrong here that only comes from thousands oh hours of playing with electronics, i would give them a good paying job right now. Degree or not. Just show me your projects you have worked on. Anybody in the Fresno area contact me. Your job will be repairing boards. Designing fixtures. Cad drawing, SMT prototype assembly, debugging, and helping with new product development. Degree not required, but projects are!

author: gbrettell
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 09:34:35 pm
content: Then there are drop-outs, such as Bill Gates and Steve Jobs ...A degree is another unit of measure ... some need one -- others don't. Can't hurt having one. Most human resource departments don't even look at an application if the applicant doesn't have a degree ...Just because someone is a Doctor does not make them a great Doctor ... there are those who barely made passing grades and others that study well beyond their formal education.I'd rather hire someone who is truly passionate about their work ... does it as a hobby, too ... someone who continues to want to learn well after college ... many get their degree, get hired, then 'settle in' and never progress beyond that point.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 09:39:04 pm
content: Yes, the doctor - nurse analogy does not make sense for several reasons:There is no way to become a "self taught" doctor.Doctor and nurses and have very different education, training, and job duties - with very little overlap. Nurses are valuable members of a health care team and it's true that they can often give cues to help doctors (especially new ones) to help them better do their job but they are not trained to diagnose or make treatment decisions and their job duties are very different from a doctors.Instead of nurse you could substitute physician assistant or nurse practitioner (whose training and job duties do overlap with physicians) but still the analogy does not hold because they are not self taught either. They also require a degree and licensing by a medical board.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 10:12:42 pm
content: Quote from: gbrettell on February 09, 2015, 09:34:35 pmFundamentally I agree with most of that. I'm not going to defend HR-droids, especially since I have personal knowledge of circumstances in which they were filtering out interesting candidates. We told them to stop filtering and, reluctantly, they did stop.But IMNSHO, passion isnecessary but not sufficient. Competence, for the job in hand, is also necessary - and there are significantly different definitions of competence depending on the significantly different jobs in hand.Anybody that does not recognise that is demonstrating an, erm, "interestingly" myopic world view

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 10:16:56 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on February 09, 2015, 09:39:04 pmAnalogies are always dangerous and can always be taken beyonds the bounds of applicability.Nonetheless, the healthcare situation is not as clearcut as you imply, and thereisan illuminating degree of congruence between the healthcare and engineer/technician situations.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 10:21:38 pm
content: Quote from: calexanian on February 09, 2015, 09:27:13 pmI think that is a useful, illuminating, example - and hence not a different story!QuotePrecisely. Just so. I wish more people would acknowledge that.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 10:25:42 pm
content: I think as mentioned before it is all summed up in one word. Competence. For situations like here in the states where there really is no such thing as a licensed electronic engineer. it boils down to Competence. In areas where such a thing does exist I would say you have to take it on a case by case basis depending on what the person is expected to be working on. But that is something I can't comment on because I do not live in a place with such a system.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 10:27:03 pm
content: Doctors are the odd ones out (there was patch adams ...)But even there .. Suppose you need heart surgery who you gonna pick ? Some doctor who's done five thousand of em , one a day, and all went well or someone who's done five in the last ten years two patients died , one's a vegetable and they others arent doing s well. You dont want the guy that comes up to you and says 'let's see what happens' and shrugs his shoulders.I'd want the guy with a lot of experience. Good experience , not lots of experience with dead people.And that too is not something the degree warrants. The degree is a licence to operate for a doctor.It does not prove how good he is. I would not want a heart surgery from a guy where it is his first time. -actually that would never happen. Newly minted doctors go on training under experienced surgeons before they even are allowed loose,mand even then a heart surgery is not the work of a single docotr. There is a whole team just so they can rely on each other to exchange idea's if there is an oh-shit moment during the operation. Would Dr Stufferstutt please put his finger in the hole in this artery while i go look for a suture ?Scenarios like that dont happen in the lab. Would phd soandso please hold the resistor while i go grab the soldering iron..

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 10:34:20 pm
content: phd soandso never leaves enough lead length to meet the free air resistor dissipation rating.Ok. I realize many of you here don't get that statement. Old man charlie here is going to tell you a story about days of old. Its an old electronics joke for newbies. People slap that 5 watt resistor on their pretty PCB and don't know why it burned the board, or un soldered itself. Resistors used to have a free air rating, and in addition to that a particular amount of standing lead to dissipate enough heat before getting to the PCB to avoid unsoldering the part and get an air gap between the resistor body and the board. They used to make ceramic sleeves to properly space them, or you could order resistors with pre formed leads with a kink in them to ensure proper spacing off the board.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 10:48:39 pm
content: Quote from: calexanian on February 09, 2015, 10:25:42 pmNo. That's too simplistic.What is necessary and sufficient iscompetence for the job.Different jobs require different competencies.Presence/absence of a degree is meaningless - unless it is in the context of a specific job.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 10:52:09 pm
content: -I'd want the guy with a lot of experience. -Agreed.end of the day, you want the job done right, degree or not.-Good experience-Not sure. I have told other that they should hire me because I have lost lots of money before so I know what not to do.It has always worked.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 10:56:23 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 09, 2015, 10:52:09 pmAnd in this example, to even start to get the desirable experience requires a degree. No degree = no experience.Are you still going argue that a degree is irrelevant in this case?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 11:01:25 pm
content: Quote from: calexanian on February 09, 2015, 10:34:20 pmSure, but that's a boring useless extreme. Just because a PhD tries to measure the impedance of the mains with a multimeter's ohms setting, doesn't indicate who is more likely to choose an appropriate control-system structure or RF modulation scheme.Appropriateness for the job in hand is key. All else is indistinguishable from a chip on the shoulder.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 11:10:15 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 09, 2015, 10:56:23 pmCan you name me some specific examples where a degree is required in electronics to get experience?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 11:50:55 pm
content: Quote from: calexanian on February 09, 2015, 11:10:15 pmThe example under discussion was, in case you had inexplicably missed it, the medical profession.From your example, can you explain why competence in running a business requires compentence in electronic engineering. To me there are orthogonal: as a EE (doctor) I want to build new things (repair people), not reconcile accounts and deal with corporation tax etc.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 12:06:43 am
content: I missed Vincent's doctor experience example.But I still pose my question as I had originally intended. Can anybody come up with an example where a degree is required to get experience in electronics?

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 12:14:50 am
content: Free electron said:"... Newly minted doctors go on training under experienced surgeons .."One of the reasons why I would refuse to work in an environment where a non engineer was a manager.I do not want to be a doctor managed by a matron.Self styled techos are just that ... matrons.This is not being disparaging , simply realistic. Years of experience in a specialised area do not make a techo an engineer.To wit.. it takes four years of bloody hard work to acquire the qualification .. it takes 5 minutes to recognise the sharp end of a screw driver.IF the company requires an engineer .. they will get an engineer.If the company requires someone to repair boards they will get a technician.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 12:22:10 am
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on February 09, 2015, 10:15:33 amWoah, what environments are you working in? The penetration of professional status in the electronics fields is vanishingly low and dropping year on year. I've met so few professional engineers in electronics (zero!) that it would seem they must all be hiding somewhere.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 12:30:19 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 09, 2015, 02:02:45 pmA good manager goes a long way, the best managers I (from my view) have worked with were those who naturally rose up the ranks as they understood the challenges of getting the job done. No difference what their educational background was, at one point I was managed by a carpenter by trade, top bloke and kept a diverse team productive.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 12:58:59 am
content: So the question is Someone, do you have a degree in electronics and have you been employed?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 01:10:34 am
content: I was once my manger's mangerIt was a matrix-management organisation, I was a project leader, and my line manager was a also project member. There were no problems since the responsibilities required of each role were different and understood, and were not in conflict.The sole purpose of a manager is to create the conditions in which their managees can achieve. What that means varies widely between different situations and establishments.

author: TheNewLab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 01:44:46 am
content: AN interesting note in the USA. About becoming an electrician union job and all!The job outlook is very positive because many of the professional field electricians are retiring (baby boomers). A large shortage is projected. With the increase in electronic applications and the need to maintain so many systems, the US will need many more qualified electricians. The projections are especially great in commercial and industrial environments, (a real chance to try out your test gear on high KV and KAmp systems!)These are union jobs, union pay, union benefits. There is such a projected shortage that salaries are expected to jump, and possibly expedited advancement from journeyman to master electrician.Hey maybe a retired magazine photographer can embark upon a new career! Lets see, qualifying for master electrician at age 72...

author: TheNewLab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 01:48:38 am
content: Oh, so a degree may not be important. I would guess there are plenty of "oldtimers' out there that advanced well beyond union work in the field "way back when"

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 02:49:28 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 09, 2015, 08:27:38 pmThe OP specifically said aMaster'sDegree.Most GPs ,at least in Oz, are Bachelors of Medicine.Why would you accept a person with a lesser Degree to look after your nealth,& insist on a higher one for Electronics?In Oz,most Medical businesses are run by neither Doctors nor Nurses,but by people with qualifications in Management.I personally think this is a backward step,as if a Doctor or Nurse is the Manager,they can be called on to do the job they are trained for in an emergency-----a "Suit" is useless in such cases.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 03:08:06 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on February 10, 2015, 12:58:59 amI've a 4 year degree and have held professional status. These have opened doors to me and got jobs I would not have been able to get without them, in many large organisations HR pre filter the resumes and may insist on a degree even if its not actually needed for the role.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 03:41:24 am
content: Quote from: Someone on February 10, 2015, 03:08:06 amThanks for answering but it was really just a rhetorical question - just in jest given your name and the title of the post. Maybe I'm the only one who sees the humor in that..

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 04:43:10 am
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on February 10, 2015, 12:14:50 amProperly trained Technicians have a solid grounding in Electronics Theory---not at the same level as a BE,but,not to be sneezed at,either.In many cases this is obtained during a formal Training Scheme or an Apprenticeship of around 4-5 years,which includes both Theory & hands-on work.----considerably harder work than "recognising the sharp end of a screwdriver".In the past,many organisations followed a similar regime with their Engineers,where the "Trainee Engineer"was employed in the field under the mentoring eye of a Senior Engineer.The great thing about this is the EE student was paid a living wage,& didn't have to "starve in a garret".He/She,also got a feel for real world problems & solutions.We now live in a more mean-spirited world,& are the worse for it,as both Techs & EEs are left to their own resources.Re: Employing a Tech to "repair boards"---this is more the job of a Process Worker.Techs more usually,find & repair faults in complete assemblies,using their knowledge of Theory & their practical experience----Engineers, in my experience are not so good at fault finding,purely because they don't do as much of it.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 11:21:52 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 09, 2015, 10:56:23 pmThat's like saying in order to attain the richest color of yellow you need to start out as a banana ...

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 11:30:35 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 09, 2015, 11:01:25 pmAppropriateness is key. But , it is NOT an ee who designs a control system structure or picks a modulation scheme.An ee designs the circuitry that implements it. Control systems are modeled by physicists and mathematicians. That is NOT something you leave to a an engineer with sub par math skills !There are ee that wear that hat but for anything serious i would not assign that task to an ee. You need a different kind of gun for that.Same for modulation schemes. That has NOTHING to do with electronics. Thats all mathematics.When i was working on ADSL we had several scientists and mathematicians to work out the algorithms and develop the cordic. Theose guys spent all day pounding equations i to matlab. Eventually they ecplained to the software guys how to build the algorithm and to the electronics engineers how much signal noise war required and how many bits the converter needed to be and how fast to get the right response out of it. The engineers then took off designing that.Coming up with the circuitry to implement it is the task of an ee.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 11:33:50 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 09, 2015, 11:50:55 pmWhat are you blabbering about ? You dont need a degree en electronics to become a doctor, neither do you need to be a doctor to get a degree in electronics. 'Building new things is not lime 'repairing people'... Go drunk, you are home ... Or something like thatYou cannot cross different fields over. It doesnt make sense

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 11:38:42 am
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on February 10, 2015, 12:14:50 amYou still do not understand the concept of 'manager' most managers are business people. They dont even understand ohms law and they don't need to. They meed superior planning and negotiation skills and business acumen to make sure everything is handled on time on budget and within resources.What ou are saying is like i would not want to work for apple because tim cook is not an engineer. I would not want to work for microsoft because bill gates doesnt have a degree in writing code. Most companies are run by managers that have no clue what the footfolk does or how they do it.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 12:49:20 pm
content: Quote from: gbrettell on February 09, 2015, 09:34:35 pmA lot of dropouts become salesmen. Some sell millions of potatoes.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 01:06:47 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 10, 2015, 11:38:42 amIt's often best that they don't know what the footfolk do or how they do it. It usually makes for decisions that are best for the business.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 03:44:46 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 10, 2015, 11:30:35 amIn that case not only am I an EE, I am also a mathematician and also a physicist.I suggest you tellallthe people in the University of Bristol's Faculty of Engineering that they aren't engineers. You will hear a large guffaw, followed by the sound of people ignoring you. (The same is true for other institutions, to my certain knowledge).Summary: you really haven't got a clue about this topic; your gobsmackingly ridiculous statements clearly demonstrate that to anybody reading this thread.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 04:00:34 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 10, 2015, 04:43:10 amFault finding and repair is often much more difficult than designing something from scratch, especially when one doesn't have popper documentation or a schematic. The process often requires a level of reverse engineering.Many technicians also end up being promoted to engineering positions degree or no degree.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 08:24:28 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 10, 2015, 03:44:46 pmhold it. 'Department of engineering' . engineering of what ? There are lots of different fields and subfield in engineering. One of em might well be control systems.My claim is designing control systems is outside the scope of EEElectricalEngineers.There are people much better suited for that kind of work.An EE designs circuitry , there may be some , note the usage of the word SOME , control stuff involved . Everywhere i have worked we had people that were specialized in such things. Some of these people were mathematicians, some where physicists, some were EE's with an additional degree in applied mathematics. I have never seen a situation where a complex control system was designed from scratch by an EE.Harddisks for example are complex mechatronic systems and have very complex control loops dealing with the mehchanical mass, magnetic fields and all the other stuff. That was all modeled by dedicated people that didn't know the difference between a mos and a bipolar transistor. they would set up the criteria for the system : we need this bandwidh, this impulse response , this such and so. now go design it. then the EE's kicked in making the active filters with programmable poles and gains. meanwhile the control people explained to the programmers how the software algorithms had to work and what timeslot they had for the code to run in.you gave the example of that windmill vibration. i cannot believe such a problem would be tackled by an EE. you need people that have a notion of mechanics and aerodynamics and other stuff that impact a windmill. there may be EE's out there that have those skills because they did additional work post graduation. but a newly minted EE is not capable of doing that.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 09:46:44 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 10, 2015, 08:24:28 pmYour problem is that you have worked in an environment in which you have become very specialised. Presumably such specialisation was valued and rewarded. Consequently you are blinkered.Not everywhere is like that.If you look athttp://www.bristol.ac.uk/engineering/you will see that it has departments of civil, mechanical, computer, aerospace, electrical and electronic engineering, plus engineering maths. Having worked with three of the EE professors before they became professors, and some of their PhD students, I know for certain that my statements are correct. Have a look at their CVs.I still go to some of the meetings open to the general public. Interdisciplinary contacts, depth and breath of expertise are clearly valued and expected.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 11:04:11 pm
content: Wow. Lots of strong opinions here.That said I agree with everything Vincent has said!

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 06:58:24 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 10, 2015, 08:24:28 pmQuoteAs an example, I have designed and implemented modulation schemes for satellites, from structuring the data schema to writing the code and building both exciter and receiver hardware. For that you need to have a working knowledge of orbital mechanics, projected spin rates, doppler effects, power budgeting, RF link budgeting, reasonable sensor parameter ranges (eg thermal effects), embedded and non-embedded software development, DSP, algorithm development, coding schemes, modulation schemes, error correction methodologies, hardware selection and design and know one end of a soldering iron from the other. For the demodulator, you even need control systems knowledge.But I'm not a physicist. I gained almost every single one of those skills after graduating as an EE without any formal training, but I do know how to read books and observe stuff for myself.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 07:08:21 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 10, 2015, 11:30:35 amIn what parallel universe are the majority of people developing control systems and modulation schemes not EEs? You certainly don't want to give those tasks to the EEs who avoided the maths options like the plague at college, but control and modulation are still the domain of EEs. Why do you think so may EE graduates from top colleges are grabbed by the finance industry? Its because they studied control theory in depth.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 07:50:36 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 10, 2015, 08:24:28 pmI think you're out of touch with what the university syllabus is for engineering. Control theory and maths was around half of my electronics engineering degree. Control is heavily taught within the department of engineering at most universities.

author: owiecc
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 08:04:24 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 10, 2015, 08:24:28 pmMost of our EE students design very complex control schemes be it for sensorless machine control using Kalman filters or a nonlinear control schemes for DC/DC converters on the last years of their study. This is not something out of an ordinary.In production environment, where a system isverycomplex and one has to be state-of-the-art in every small detail, it makes sense to hire various specialists to optimize each element of the design. But it is not needed all the time. Very often EE or someone from other fields have to wear different hats and know different fields. How else will you marry all these thing together?I had a professor from control department asking us what is thisdvariable half way through the project. It was a duty cycle in a buck converter! He was amazing when it came to nonlinear control, the math that an EE student and him made was perfectly correct, but he didn't care enough to learn about the physical system he was controlling.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 08:07:44 am
content: Quote from: SteveyG on February 11, 2015, 07:50:36 amI think control theory is only taught seriously in engineering faculties. You'd think economics people would learn something about it, but they don't appear to.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 08:46:21 am
content: Quote from: coppice on February 11, 2015, 08:07:44 amI found control theory to be, well, far too theoretical. All well and good knowing your Laplace transform from your Dirac delta function, but if you don't know how to apply it it is worthless. I passed the exams fine, but still had little clue why or how it applied to real world electronic engineering, so I considered it to be of questionable value to me back then, and, as predominantly a digital guy 30+ years ago I didn't really give two hoots about it anyway.Now if they'd given us a small practical project to complete based on control theory it would have helped an awful lot, but regretfully there was so little practical component to my degree course it was embarrassing.Things have changed a lot since those days, particularly with the advent of generally available computer aided modelling.

author: owiecc
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 10:54:27 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on February 11, 2015, 08:46:21 amThis comes down to how the study curriculum is designed. In our university students do one project per semester. They start with an easy project in big groups so they have experience in group work, group dynamics, report writing, finding source materials (first semester) and finish up with very specialised, full semester project in smaller groups (MSc semester). Each project is connected with a semester theme and, therefore, connected with the right courses. Fourth semester is a control one where, e.g. they will make DC motor control for drones, electronic load, balancing tables and so on.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 12:03:51 pm
content: QuoteIO is very close.So are many optimization problems, like those used by airlines - Sabre for example.The issue with economics is that it deals with people: the same stimuli applied to the same group of people under the same conditions often yield different behaviors / outcome.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 01:59:46 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 11, 2015, 08:07:44 amEconomists do learn control theory, but many seem to ignore it.Control theory is what separates engineers from the rest. The rest includes governments, like the Victorian government here which is out of control.http://www.theage.com.au/comment/billions-of-dollars-of-victorian-taxpayers-money-is-being-wasted-on-bad-government-contracts-20150121-12ubyi.htmlMost state governments politicians are lawyers, knucklehead do-gooders, greenies and various spongers who are "very good" with other peoples' money. They are also very good at lying and deceiving to the public to win elections.The state government here cheated people into paying speeding fines. One example is they had a speed camera set to a LOWER setting than the speed limit sign near Tullamarine airport where they reaped millions in fines. It was the second biggest speed camera profit earner for the state government, so they kept the scam running for several months after they were caught out by an engineer who copped a fine (he did some tests). They did not fix it until when the engineer went public when all hell broke loose.If these politicians were honest and capable and actually understood control theory and were to the level of intelligence and integrity of the average electronics engineer, things would have been very different. I suspect no electronic engineers are politicians because they are simply too honest and down to earth. Engineers don't tell lies to get get a job. Engineers examine problems methodically and scientifically to solve problems. They use control theory to ensure stability in the systems they create. They project manage projects effectively and realistically so they are on time and on budget. Unlike dodgy politicians, they earn their income.I refused to vote at the last election, and I was reported for not doing so because voting is compulsory here. There was no-one I thought was good enough to vote for. Don't vote, you get fined. Don't pay the fine, you get imprisoned.If there were more engineers running governments the world over, the world would be a better place. Better management, better systems and less illegal and legal corruption too. And control theory would be used to ensure stability and control, employing feedback from the end-user, the public.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 02:43:03 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 11, 2015, 01:59:46 pmAre you not allowed to vote "none of the above" in order to satisfy the compulsory voting requirement? I thought I had read somewhere that this was an option provided to make compulsory voting laws palatable.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 03:00:31 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on February 11, 2015, 06:58:24 amplease do tell me, how much 'orbital mechanics' did you learn in your EE course ?Just like , for an EE , it is possible to do stuff waaay out of his field, it is possible for a non EE to do stuff waaay out of his field.in short : The paper neither proves nor precludes anything ,apart from having spent 4 years on meeting the requirements to get the paper.And that's all i have to say about it.Besides, engineering is a life-long course. there is always one more thing you don't know and tomorrow someone will invent a new thing you haven't heard of either. Maybe that invention will be done by an EE , maybe it will be done by the guy around the corner.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 12:29:52 am
content: Quote from: IanB on February 11, 2015, 02:43:03 pmYou don't have to tick or write anything, simply fold the pieces of paper up and stick them in ballot boxes on the way out. Known as an informal or "donkey" vote

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 12:43:56 am
content: Quote from: SteveyG on February 11, 2015, 07:50:36 amI agree. Control systems are an essential part of EE. Think about switching power supplies, servo loops, heating controls, opamp feedback, etc.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 03:56:25 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on February 12, 2015, 12:29:52 amOf course,that doesn't satisfy the grandstanders who "refuse" to vote,& cop a $20 fine!

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 04:12:20 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 12, 2015, 03:56:25 amI thought that when posting but kept it factual for Ian's seemingly genuine question.If you cop the fine and don't pay it the state governments debt mob (forget their name) will cancel your cars rego and or licence (no prison) until you pay it plus the inevitable surcharges, which end up amounting to more than the original fine.So to make "grandstanding" worthwhile, you would need to get a group of you to do it and make a hell of a noise in the media for it to take effect otherwise it's a massive inconvenience for an empty statement

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 07:19:47 am
content: Go vote you lazy bastards... for the donkey.

author: luky315
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 07:53:35 am
content: I can only say that the best developer i know has no degree and one of the worst is a Dr.-Ing. (comparable to a PhD)

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 07:59:50 am
content: Quote from: luky315 on February 12, 2015, 07:53:35 amMy question to you will be, does the best developer you know attended college at any time? as long as he learned how to learn without skipping the boring parts and collaborate with others then he got all the college he needed.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 09:03:18 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on February 12, 2015, 12:29:52 amThe escape clause is to get your name crossed off and walk out in protest. At least we vote. In backward communist countries, try to vote and you get hauled away and made to disappear. But in a free democratic country, you should not be forced to vote. Freedom means freedom. Not being told what to do if you are not hurting anyone else.I am happy to vote if there is someone worth voting for. You should be force to vote for one financial knucklehead or crook over another, as has been the case with Victorian state government elections for many years. Again I say we need more people with the calibre of engineers at the helm.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 11:11:55 am
content: "... In backward communist countries, try to vote and you get hauled away and made to disappear..."As in any other country You ought to behave according to the laws. Anecdotally what follows is a sample of the law.My father used to tell the story of voting in a newly established comunist country post ww2.Voting was compulsory.You get two markers.. a rubber ball and a steel ball approx 1 cm in diameter.Voting was secret. You would vote by placing one of the above into a container. The catch was.. the bottom of the container had a sounding board... no exit polls.GET YA FACTS RIGHT!

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 11:56:59 am
content: QuotePlease don't let facts get in the way of us rednecks fabricating a story that appeals to our tiny brains but bears no resemblance to reality,

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 12:02:26 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 12, 2015, 09:03:18 amWasn't it Stalin who observed that all he needed to do was to control the people thatcountedthe votes?

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 03:07:59 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 12, 2015, 11:56:59 amhaha, i like that. too true.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2015, 03:25:01 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 12, 2015, 09:03:18 amYou only get to vote for your local member (& a Senator in Federal Elections),so your protest may prevent the election of an excellent individual,just because you don't like their Knucklehead party leaders.I like Engineers,but many times,its hard to get a straight answer from them,as they are "away with the fairies",thinking about their next project.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2015, 09:39:20 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 12, 2015, 03:07:59 pmWhat are you smoking?Try and start up a democratic party in a the so-called "People's" Republic of China. You'd become an organ donor before the ink had even dried on your Vote For Democracy posters.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_dissidentsTry promoting the opportunity to vote in Cuba. No Cuban cigars for you, old boy... cockroaches will be on your menu for the rest of your short life.http://www.truth-out.org/speakout/item/28266-from-cuba-to-north-korea-torture-disappears-from-the-media#OK, try doing it in Vietnam. You'll get free education... re-education that is. You'd be better off with a lobotomy.Do your homework so you too get to learn a bit about reality.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2015, 09:58:25 am
content: Some years back, germany's chancellor Schroeder, if memory serves, defined democracy as" ... dictatorship of law ... "Do not think for a moment Stalin's Russia was a lawless land.Dont think for a moment pre civil war USA was a lawless land.Dont think industrial revolution UK was a lawless land...Come to understand any regime is good and bad.. depends how it treats YOU as an individual.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2015, 11:57:02 am
content: QuoteI don't know if that definition is accurate. Democracy to me means popular citizen involvement in government. It does not by itself ensure a state governed by law or governed by person. In fact, democracy can turn into tyranny (of majority) - Nazi Germany would be one such example.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2015, 12:21:48 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 13, 2015, 11:57:02 amIt is also worth understanding that democracy is not (and never has been) the answer; it is away of findinganswers. There are other ways, with differing advantages and disadvantages.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2015, 03:36:05 pm
content: At least in old ancient Rom, the public could vote people"in to office"and"out of office"

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2015, 06:42:53 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 13, 2015, 03:25:01 amnever heard that phrase before. I wonder if its some kind of san francisco joke or something?lol

author: gbrettell
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2015, 08:26:30 pm
content: Although entertaining ... it seems as though the original topic has been abandoned. Gonna run out ofthreadif y'all keepsewingat this rate.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2015, 08:53:12 pm
content: Quote from: luky315 on February 12, 2015, 07:53:35 amMaybe your company pays sooo low, the only ones with a degree that show up were the biggest morons of their class.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2015, 09:04:22 pm
content: Quote from: Galenbo on February 13, 2015, 08:53:12 pmFor good employees the pay is a secondary consideration. More important is the work and the atmosphere.If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't be any incentive to tell the wife you're with the mistress, the mistress you're with the wife, while you go and have fun in the lab.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2015, 10:35:18 pm
content: oh, fark that!its ALL about the pay. I stopped thinking "my life == my work life" a LONG time ago. its not worth it to donate so much of your energy to a company that could really care less about you; you are a cog in the machine, nothing more.any manager who says otherwise is full of shit.welcome to the real world."pay me my money down" or GTFO.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2015, 10:56:08 pm
content: Individual managers may care about their employees, but the company itself sure as hell doesn't. Just wait until sales lag for a couple quarters and word comes down from on high to cut costs. The corporate "family" will fall apart like you're on with Maury Povich.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2015, 03:02:19 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on February 13, 2015, 06:42:53 pmNo,I mean the ones with wingsThe term is common in Oz & the UK-----it implies being a bit out of touch with reality.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2015, 06:06:13 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on February 13, 2015, 10:35:18 pmIBM's pseudo-religion and its carrot-on-a-stick tactics was nothing more than complete. Since the early 90's the company existed for wealth of the shareholder and nothing else. They will rip you off your retirement funds if it makes their bottom line look better to the shareholders.If you want wealth you won't get it working for someone else, no matter what frog shit you are told. But if financial wealth does not make you happy, getting your own circuit working in a product that is sold around the world can provide a great deal of satisfaction even if it is making someone else rich.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2015, 08:26:46 am
content: I suspect that the phrase 'away with the fairies' is either Scottish or Irish.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2015, 04:21:15 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on February 14, 2015, 08:26:46 amAccording to an online researcher it did seem to be inspired by Scottish folklore, but the phrase only became common in print around the 1980's or so. It is therefore relatively recent.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2015, 04:31:02 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on February 14, 2015, 04:21:15 pmI always got told it was to do with the Cottingley Fairies and was a bit of a jab at Arthur Conan Doyle and his very public march into madness. I'll admit that's probably a local legend but I do know for a fact the term has been used locally since the whole debacle.