Design & layout software for beginners - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: tkline98
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2014, 09:38:22 pm
content: What's is a a good software program to get started with layout and circuit design?Anything good that runs on a Mac osX?(I've done a few searches and didn't see any relevant results.)

author: Matje
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2014, 10:26:40 pm
content: Quote from: tkline98 on September 10, 2014, 09:38:22 pmKiCad runs on OSX, it is Open Source and available for free. As for good - you would need to define your criteria, KiCad is most likely more than good enough.

author: tkline98
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2014, 12:35:56 am
content: It's my first jump into this area, so my definition of "good" is pretty vague.Maybe some name of other software to check out would be helpful. I've heard of Altium (waiting for their free version as Dave talked about) and Kicad. Any others worth researching?

author: DanielS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2014, 02:05:01 am
content: I am really curious about what Altium will be axing in their 'free' version.Anyone who tries would probably be able to list a dozen things that one schematic/PCB tool does better than another. I am mostly playing with DIPTrace lately and will probably try KiKad later.If free Altium does not cripple any of the features we take for granted in DIP, Eagle, KiKad and other low-cost packages, it will be a tough choice to ignore.

author: fww
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2014, 02:24:53 am
content: Search from Internet for reference, But not sure there are OSX versions.1)Protel more used in china, protel 99se, protel DXP, Altium, these are a company's constantly upgrade software;2) Cadence spb software is Cadence software. ORCAD schematic design which is the international standard; The PCB design, simulation, very well equipped.complex than protel.3)Mentor's BORDSTATIONG and EE, which BOARDSTATION due only applies to UNIX systems not designed for the PC, so rarely used.4) EAGLE Layout ,this design software is most widely used in Europe .

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2014, 05:57:58 am
content: QuoteEAGLE for MacOSX is pretty good (as good as EAGLE in general, anyway. There are differences in opinion on how good that is.)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 11, 2014, 06:04:07 am
content: If been working with diptrace, actually bought a license but I'm not overly impressed, the autorouter is crap. I'm also interested in Altiums cut down version. I used Kicad but got fed up with the lack of progress, it's autorouter and autoplacement are both pointless and should be taken out to avoid confusion. I also had problems with libraries and changes i made reverting so basically I'd have to redraw every symbol and footprint to be certain.My main reason for selecting diptrace was it's cheapness and ability to export 3D CAD models of the boards which is very useful to me as i work in mechanical engineering so colleagues need models of my boards to work out enclosures or I have to to do it and having a realistic model on demand is very nice.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2014, 06:12:03 am
content: All autorouters are crapIt only ever "works" if the board is idiot simple with no requirement that the routing should make any sense. Of course some routers are "better" at minimizing trace length while some have real curious ways of introducing unnecessary layer changes and all other kinds of idiosyncrasies.I don't think anybody who is at all serious about PCB design has much use for autorouters as they are today. Certainly i don't, which is why i haven't paid any attention to the state of the autorouter in DipTrace. Other than that i have been a happy camper - it has almost all that i need and is well worth the price (i have the extended commercial license).

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 11, 2014, 06:56:51 am
content: I bought the lite (500 pins 2 sig layers infinite power planes), I do manually route essential stuff like a SMPS and any power stuff but it's nice to sit back and let the autorouter take it from there. I use the freerouting program that used to be available on freerouting.net, it is excellent, I cannot see how anyone can beat it and even if it takes half an hour it's faster than me spending 2 days to a week. If the board comes out looking a mess it's because I did not place parts very well so i ditch, relay and rerun, very efficient. diptraces built in autorouter is awful and comparing the two you can see that autorouting(.net) if far far better but then can you really compare a result obtained in 30 minutes of crunching with one spat out in 30 seconds ? me thinks its not worth it.I just completed a board with 6 connectors with 12 pins each that I want to carry 10amps each, yea you bet i routed that by hand, handpicking each trace width and making it just right, but then I let autorouting.net finish off the signals as really i could not have done a better job myself.I do find manual routing with diptrace clunky, kicad is better but I don't think it's reliable enough for me and I have a boss to please.

author: jlmoon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 11, 2014, 09:22:53 pm
content: Hello,Have you taken a look at OrCAD? They have been around since the mid to late 70's.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 11, 2014, 09:33:10 pm
content: good god, to use orcad you need a degree in.... orcad

author: charlespax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 12:56:54 am
content: Quote from: tkline98 on September 10, 2014, 09:38:22 pmStart with Eagle. There's tons of tutorials and part libraries available. Basically, if you go with Eagle, you will be able to do everything a beginner might need.I'm running OSX and Eagle works fine. I've tried KiCAD, but the install never worked well. I'm not even sure what file to download. I Build robots, 3D printers, and open source lab instruments and I can't get KiCAD to compile on OSX. It's just not worth your time.If you want something that just works, go with eagle.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 01:04:12 am
content: I've never had any issues getting KiCAD working on Linux or Windows, but I've never tried on OSX.I did give Eagle a shot for a very brief time, and the interface just seemed so backwards that I never really got into it. KiCAD's interface makes more sense to me, and is much easier to use, despite it's occasional "oddity".

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 01:28:33 am
content: I'd tried Kicad on Mac a couple of times, and not had much luck. A more recent version (fromhttp://www.mdx4.org/index.php?/categories/5-Kicad&serendipity=en ) seems to work much better, but in my initial attempts to do anything with it, the UI seems horribly clunky. I mean, the whole "verb/object" model in EAGLE, that results in so many complaints about obsolete UI design, seems sorta nice when what I'm actually applying the same action to a bunch of objects (let's clean up these wires. "move", click/drag/click; click/drag/click; etc) (and I can't figure out how to grab and move the corner of a wire at all...)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 01:48:05 am
content: Quote from: DanielS on September 11, 2014, 02:05:01 amIt won't. The idea is to have in it all the stuff you expect a good PCB package package to have, albeit with limits like Eagle et.al

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 02:11:16 am
content: Eagle works very well on Mac OSX and it's a easy single package install (this is what I am using and am happy with it). You can start with the free version. There are also many tutorials on y YouTube.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 02:16:40 am
content: Quote from: tkline98 on September 11, 2014, 12:35:56 amAltium is Windows only. Kicad doesn't have good release for Mac OSX. You can also try diptrace.

author: DanielS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 02:29:59 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 12, 2014, 01:48:05 amI sure hope they don't. But with the number of companies lead by marketing, the way they decide to approach new markets do not always make engineering sense. Since I have not seen their preview, I am still at the "cautious pessimism" stage like you were when you originally heard about their plans.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 03:08:17 am
content: yeah i'm also curious just as the OP, is there any good pcb layout program for android? i'm expecting newer version of diptrace or altium to support android. they must be because they have to, or just because i'm using android in my portable samsung.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 03:15:07 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on September 12, 2014, 03:08:17 amSplashtop?Access your remote system that runs the layout programThere has to be a ton of remote desktop apps as well.And hopefully soon virtual desktops will make this a thing of the past at least for layout, not sure for programming/debugging.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 10:44:21 am
content: uh, who the hell wants to run engineering software on android ? or does it make a decent PC OS ? my main consideration for any engineering platform is how much screen real estate I have and preferably 2 screens.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 10:52:25 am
content: Quote from: DanielS on September 12, 2014, 02:29:59 amWell, they have told me almost exactly what they plan to do, and it sounds good in that department. So unless they change course (again) before the announcement, you have little to worry about in that department.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 10:59:29 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on September 12, 2014, 03:15:07 amyou mean this slashtop?http://www.splashtop.com/personalbut the point of this thread is that... why you need a "Windows Remote PC" (and Windows based PCB software) when you already have other "robust" OS such as Linux, MacOX or android for that matter?Quote from: Simon on September 12, 2014, 10:44:21 amditto. and who want to run engineering, or "top of the class" or "the best" bunch of softwares in the "other than Windows OS"?

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 11:02:38 am
content: LOL, Android PCB design software!!Comedy gold!

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 02:40:04 pm
content: Yes and it's Splashtop just like I typed and what your link says.The remote system could run in the cloud with full GPU support and streaming the output to your tablet or TV or whatever.VMWare with Nvidia Grid and it should be quick enough if you have a decent internet connection.But it's cheaper to just purchase a PC and get it over with

author: jlmoon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 03:19:03 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 11, 2014, 09:33:10 pmlol yes Simon, I forget about the difficulty factor at times. When they drop it on your desk and say.. "learn this" .. guess we have no choice..

author: DanielS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 03:25:21 pm
content: Quote from: Wilksey on September 12, 2014, 11:02:38 amMany modern Android devices are powerful enough to start running some non-trivial productivity software. PCB schematic and layout editing do not seem that far-fetched to me but you would want to use something like Samsung's or Nvidia's pen for more precise pointing and multi-function presses/touches. An external USB or Bluetooth mouse and keyboard would not hurt either.The biggest obstacle to productivity on Android-based device is the general lack of productivity-oriented applications and awareness of existing ones. The heaps of similar-themed so-so apps do not help with spotting the apps you need - when one exists that does the job right - either.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 03:31:18 pm
content: Quote from: DanielS on September 12, 2014, 03:25:21 pmI just can't ever imagine running something like Eagle or Altium on my android tablet that is all, I mean, I make extensive use of all keys and 3 mouse buttons, in terms of productivity and speed, I do struggle to see how they could make something on par with a standard PC package.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 03:34:05 pm
content: only andriod on a desktop or laptop

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 03:35:24 pm
content: Quote from: Wilksey on September 12, 2014, 11:02:38 amPeople are really spoilt. You do realise that most of history's PCBs were designed on something much less capable that even a cheap Android phone? Less speed, less memory, less screen resolution. I wouldn't want to develop on a phone when I have the choice of powerful inexpensive modern desktop machines, but is it really comedy to suggest it?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 03:38:01 pm
content: human/machine interaction is the only problem, i used orcad on dos!!!! i even autorouted on 400MHz later. the problem with a tablet or phone is lack of screen space and a mouse and keyboard

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 04:04:27 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 12, 2014, 03:35:24 pmHe said 'Android'. It's you that came up with 'phone'.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 04:14:57 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on September 12, 2014, 04:04:27 pmThat kind of misses the point of what I said, but saying phone was sloppiness on my part. I have seen people doing some serious on the move mechanical CAD on iPads, and people probably do that on Android tablets too. I would really like an electronics CAD reader for tablets. When you are on the move, a zoomable searchable version of the schematic and artwork would be very useful, even if you don't want to generate them on such a device.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 04:35:07 pm
content: Surely if Top of the Line input methods like the Wacom tablets with display are used by our artists for 2D 3D modeling at $2K+ a pop you could use a desktop tablet running android (20+ inches they do make them) to do the same.It's just a matter of someone creating the app.Touch and camera input is not too far fetched to do some cool practical ways to work and interact with programs, the mouse is a strange beast that people didn't grasp (now of course it's easy because computers are all around us and they all use mice)While working on a project decades back we placed a system in the Hospital for the doctors to have access to patient images and it had a nice DEC mouse those big round ones. All running on a DEC Alpha workstation, we where going to train them the next day but just walking by we found one of the doctors using the system. He turned the mouse upside down and he was using it as a trackball (since that's usually what medical devices had at the time)So not as laughable a concept really.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 04:45:04 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on September 12, 2014, 04:35:07 pmThere used to be mice specifically design to be invertable for use as a trackball.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 05:13:00 pm
content: This one wasn't, Edit, this is an animated gif but it doesn't animate in the embedded image but clicking in the attached one it shows the inside and the little wheels it didn't have a ball at all, not sure why he even thought it was a trackball).Although I gotta admit it was a great and comfortable mouse now they are too narrow and make your hands cramp.Btw I'm using my old transformer prime with keyboard to post this, it's easier to use the touch screen for the forum than to use a mouse on the desktop.

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 05:51:46 pm
content: Quote from: charlespax on September 12, 2014, 12:56:54 amI can't agree there... Eagle has the most obnoxiously terrible user interface I have encountered. It completely contravenes any sensible UI standards developed in the last 20 years, which leads to UI lock-in as someone who has gotten used to Eagle doesn't want to relearn a better PCB package.Eagle does not have a native Mac UI (only a terrible WINE port of a terrible Windows port of a non-standard DOS UI). Whether it runs in Mac OS should not be the deciding criterion for what PCB design software to use.KiCad has a similar learning curve to Eagle, unfortunately, but at least you're learning a tool that is getting better all the time and is free for ever.For someone starting out now, I would recommend KiCad or waiting for the Altium one, and possibly to consider Cadence PCB as they have a free lite version:http://www.orcad.com/resources/orcad-lite-overviewwith limits suitable for a beginner, and the quite reasonable option of £500 / year rental after that.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2014, 05:27:26 am
content: my point was... i will chase whatever OS that "best" productivity softwares can run in, buy the machine and OS for it. not the other way around. i got sick with commentary such as "this software cannot run in XXX OS? not for me! and i dont need it!" wanker. thats it, i can elaborate more about this but i'm too lazy to type. long story short, Windows has it all imho, hence thats what i'm using. dont get me wrong this is not "this particular OS or that particular OS is good or not" cyberwar, if one day Linux or MacOS or even Android "has it all" i need, i'll sure change my fav OS to suit, i'm not that "blind-OS-religious-nut", ymmv.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2014, 08:56:28 am
content: QuoteI think you're out of date on that. The very first version of EAGLE that ran on Mac worked through X11, and had the same GUI as the linux version (not very mac-like, but pretty brilliant at a 1st effort, IMO.) The next release had a native Mac UI (as much as your "terrible UI contravening sensible UI design" can, anyway. Mostly that means that a bunch of commands moved from the EAGLE window menus to the apple top-bar menu. It feels pretty native to me.)QuoteAgreed, in principle. People unhappy that their $5k software won't run on their preferred $1k hardware platform are being a bit silly. OTOH, if you have one set of "best" tools that work on one platform, and another set that work better on some other platform, it is surely ... annoying (easier than it used to be, what with VMs and KVM switches and networks and Remote Desktop Environments, but still annoying.)QuoteActually, I've been pretty pleased with the rate of improvement of EAGLE. Each new release seems to have several things that were widely requested by their community. And there are releases. Some of the other products I've seen people mention ("you can still get the DOS version of OrCAD", or gEDA to a lesser extent) are quite scary in that respect; effectively dead and unsupported.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2014, 09:34:21 am
content: I'd not want to get an OS just because a piece of software will run on that platform only apparently there is an x86 port of android so hey maybe it will become the yet another linux OS to rule them all. I must admit that I gave up with linux because none of it's developers have any interest in making it user friendly and due to the huge fragmentation nothing will ever standardize because everyone thinks they're right and wants to rule world. Granted we all hate windows but it's the only common and viable platform unless reactos or android become serious contenders without there being thousands of variant made by people who want o have it their way and sod everyone else.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2014, 06:27:37 pm
content: This 24" android desktop (no battery powered) can do virtual desktops and of course run native androidhttp://www.viewsonic.com/us/vsd241.htmlBut this is 2 generations behind since there there is a Tegra 4 and a Tegra K1 and at the end of the year Nvidia will have the K1 64bit. Both K1s have 192 CUDA capable GPU cores that support OpenGL 4.4 (not the ES crap) and DirectX 12 (but I guess for that someone will have to port windows for their new processor.Interesting about their 64 bit processor is that it has micro instructions and it can even do x86, but NVidia couldn't get a license from Intel so no dice in that front yet.So the tech for an Android desktop is here already, add the Citrix tech to run remote virtual desktops with NVidia Grid virtual GPUs and wait until those prices come down for such cloud computing. Then you'll be renting the VM you need for when you need it.I see no problem with this taking over soon since the Android ecosystem is growing and more serious Apps are being done. So yeah there is an opportunity open for whoever develops a good CAD/CAE/Layout etc.And if you need a mouse Android support mice and keyboards. The major bad thing with android is Sound, they just can't seem to get that right.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2014, 11:05:28 pm
content: For that much i have a high performing PC

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2014, 11:15:07 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 13, 2014, 11:05:28 pm$300-$400 for the touch screen monitor that leaves you $250-$150 for your high performance PC

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 09:20:15 am
content: I'll keep my mouse and keyboard thanks.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 09:37:57 am
content: Quote from: Simon on September 14, 2014, 09:20:15 amBut Android supports both.

author: Kostas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 09:56:51 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on September 14, 2014, 09:37:57 amPerhaps it does, but here's another thing: You don't really have full control of your device under Android. Don't get me wrong, I have an Android smartphone and I wouldn't like getting back to ordinary yesterday's phones. But sometimes, especially if you have a resource constrained device, things can become outrageously slow. I wouldn't dare using my phone without a task manager like "Advanced Task Killer". Every application can start by itself whenever it pleases, the vast majority of them do not even have an exit, as in terminate application, option. They just go to the background and occupy resources. Of course, Google designers say that the operating system decides when a task has to be stopped, but this doesn't really work very well. When using my Win7/Linux PC I have full control of what is running, but not in Android. I find it ridiculous...

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 10:00:24 am
content: Android is Linux.I never have to reboot my tablet, ICS but anyways I agree nothing is perfect.But to the point, there is no reason layout and design software wouldn't be able to run on Android.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 02:45:41 pm
content: Quote from: janekm on September 12, 2014, 05:51:46 pmThe OP asked specifically for MAC OSX software.It's a deciding factor for me. I prefer to have a single Mac notebook.

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 05:01:25 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on September 14, 2014, 02:45:41 pmVMs exist, surely? That's what I do, Mac laptop with Windows VM specifically for PCB design software. All the "serious" PCB design software is for Windows, unfortunately. You are going to suffer a serious limitation in your productivity using inferior tools (Lack of proper routing support like push&shove, lack of footprint wizards, awkward handling of planes, via stitching, ...).Still, I think if I was starting out now I would seriously try to get to grips with Kicad as it shows a lot of promise, especially now that it has push & shove routing. The learning curve is pretty tough though due to the confusing UI (http://www.amateurengineer.com/?p=442) .

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 05:13:56 pm
content: err, you mean kicad has had the autorouter updated ? last time i used it having just manually placed some of the traces it ploughed it's traces through mine (big BANG!)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 05:16:41 pm
content: in fact the latest download dates back to over a year ago or am I missing something ? I don't want to be funny but i stopped using kicad as I felt its development was too risky for comercial work, they changed things without really explaining how to use the new features and library system. I'm sorry but I don't have time to keep up with developer politics when i'm trying to do stuff for work

author: RenGate
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 07:41:22 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 14, 2014, 05:16:41 pmCERN developers actively contribute to KiCad and have already implemented some nice features like interactive router. You can find more info about results of their work athttp://www.ohwr.org/projects/cern-kicad/wiki. However, one drawback of such a way of KiCad development is that you must manually build it from source files to get a latest version.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 07:53:38 pm
content: Quote from: RenGate on September 14, 2014, 07:41:22 pmYou mean the only way of getting anything that is not more than a year out of date is to hope to build it yourself (I tried and failed), the development is getting a bit like linux, either you wrote it and know how to set it up or you can't use it......... that is why i gave up on it.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 10:18:54 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 14, 2014, 07:53:38 pmCan't disagree with you there. I have a lot of experience building software from source, but KiCAD is a mess in that regard. I was never able to get it going either, no matter what Linux distro I'm using I always end up having to install the 1+ year old version from the standard repo in order to get it to work (which does work just fine, but it doesn't have the latest features).

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 11:41:16 pm
content: I have no doubt that Android would run a package, I have no doubt people can use a BT keyboard and mouse, but unless you have a 20"+ android tablet, apart from the fact it becomes unportable at that size, why would you want to? I have a laptop from 10 years ago and it runs all of the apps I want, it's a 17" screen, I can hook up a 3 button mouse if I am feeling adventurous. I would in no way want to try and produce a professional or hobbyist circuit / pcb design on my samsung phone though! Ludicrous! So yes, comedy gold!With regards to KiCAD, I have built several from CERN and they did take a lot of faffing around to get it to go, but did manage it.It's a difficult one, it's quite mature and very well built for it's price! (Free) but I would not want to use it for anything commercial, although more than capable, I am not 100% convinced it is stable.I am really not sure what the hate is with Autorouters, place critical clock signals or high speed ones by hand sure, but for the rest, eh, auto route away! They do not always produce the "prettiest" results, but 99% of the time they do an very good job (depends on the autorouter, granted) at routing, I have found that ripping up and changing component layout can yield better results, as long as you set the auto router parameters it will work, I have been surprised in the past on autorouter boards as they have looked aesthetically pleasing and when asked how the answer has always been component placement and setting the auto router up. Personal preference I suppose.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 15, 2014, 05:58:43 am
content: Yes i much prefered kicad to diptrace for placing routes, nice things like being in the middle of a trace and being able to right click and place a via and automatically carry on with the trace on the other layer, as far as i know you can't do that with diptrace and i found it a pig to work with. I often use an autorouter, the one in diptrace is a bit squarish and wastes a lot of trace length, freerouting produces excellent results that I just cannot fault providing cough, cough a certain program passes the correct information to it. And yes I tend to run the auto router, look at it, if i spot a part that is in the wrong place for optimum routing i dump it, move the part and re rerun the autorouter until I'm happy with it.

author: rfbroadband
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 02:20:58 am
content: you will have to determine for yourself whether you want simulation (Spice) capabilities or whether you just want do draw schematics and layouts. OrCad/PSpice has an probably the best simulation capabilities, but it is somewhat expensive. As a beginner you get a lot things simulated with the free LT spice that also runs on OS X. In terms of layout, if you have never done layout before, start with any of the free packages until you hit limits of the tool and that point you can start comparing tools that cost money. Altium is probably the most cost efficient choice at that point.

author: tkline98
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 11:05:21 pm
content: Wow! Lots of great responses here. I looked at KiCad since Chris talks about it just about every week, but I didn't want to get into the multiple prerequisite installs. I haven't had much luck with mac ports in the past and didn't want to clog up a new machine with all that just to test out KiCad.I think I'll try Eagle next.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 11:15:05 pm
content: Quote from: tkline98 on September 17, 2014, 11:05:21 pmGood quick tutorial here including layout and producing gerbers that you can send to a board manufacturer:https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/108

author: drtaylor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 04:22:40 am
content: I use Osmond PCB on a Mac. A very easy to use versatile layout package. Very high resolution and has many features usually found only on high end layout programs.www.osmondpcb.com. Check out the topic "Electronics Development on a Mac".

author: charlespax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2015, 02:46:56 pm
content: Quote from: charlespax on September 12, 2014, 12:56:54 amSince I last wrote the above statement KiCad has gotten better on OSX and I have successfully designed a PCB though I have not physically ordered it. There are nownightly builds. I hope to move my future projects to KiCad.

author: unfy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 08:15:20 pm
content: I recently picked up an 8" Android tablet. Gonna try my best to use it as something 'useful' and not just some media consumption device.As such, one of the ideas was to keep schematics on it for when assembling boards or similar - and to annotate / draw on them as I went. Kind of like a digital version of what everyone does to paper schematics heh.To do so, currently have Xodo as a free PDF annotator thing and would keep schematics as PDF's on the device. I do have some fear that the annotated PDF's might only be readable in Xodo, but whatever... can cross that bridge later. Similarly, I wanna try to keep datasheets on it as well.Anyway, if there was a kikad android that was "almost" readonly, that would be actually kinda useful in this regard. I have no desire to do full on editing, mind you - just something to make notes on.As far as the original opic: kikad is easy enough to get going even from a 'completely new to things' stand point. There's a few gotcha's, but some simple googling should be able to answer those quickly.

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 02:31:34 pm
content: I run kiCAD inside a Linux virtual machine on OSX... I had some hopes for the new free Altium, but they remained Windows only.I really wonder how long it takes the kiCAD people to finally do some sort of release. (Or, even better, regular releasES...) Nightly builds aren't really meant for use in a normal software project.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 05:38:05 pm
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on June 23, 2015, 02:31:34 pmThis has been discussed here at length.A stable release on all three platforms is planned for the end of next month. The developers have been working very hard to make that happen.You should browse or follow the developers' mailing list to keep up to date.

author: xrayxray
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 07:31:48 am
content: Fritzinghttp://fritzing.org/download/