REMINDER: This forum is a NOT a free-for-all free speech platform - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 07:11:25 am
content: Today there was a recent temporary banning of a 10,000+ post user because of their continued persistence to make political posts at every available opportunity in response to anyone mentioning their pet topic. Even after they were asked to stop this many times they persisted and quoted their right to "free speech".This forum is NOT a free speech free-for-all platform, it has rules, and one of those is about political discussion.Of course there are political discussions on this forum, and threads often drift into the subject, and that is inevitable and is generally tolerated in the most regard. Mods give the occasional poke to stay on topic etc, and generally work well enough to keep the forum focused on engineering.And there are of course political topics that are fairly "on topic" that remain as large active threads.But when you are asked to stop because you do it too often and do not want to change, and you actively know it's against the rules and know it will get posts locked (even encouraging such locking), there has to be a limit. This extends to everyone. We do generally cut more slack for long standing members, but the goodwill will eventually run out.I'd LOVE to debate politics all day long, and have a "free speech" forum (or section of the forum), but this forum cannot be one of those places. I have seen good forums destroyed by devolving into these topics which is why we have some rules here to try and keep it as engineering focused as much as possible, and to do it in a lead by example way that requires as little moderation as possible (too much moderation is another way to destroy a forum).In the case today, the user said they wouldn't talk about this stuff if others didn't "start it". Well, the solution is simple, if you don't like that stuff and you see that stuff on the forum, then report it instead of responding and fueling it.I hate having to ban users, especially ones with an otherwise large, productive, and well liked post history, but there are limits.Thanks.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 08:08:38 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2019, 07:11:25 amThat forum is calledWhingepoolWhirlpool. They have topics for just about everything. So if you enjoy over-zealous, selective and inconsistent moderation or you want your posts continually trolled, Whirlpool is the forum for you! ;-)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 08:30:25 am
content: I can't comment on this specific case, of course.All your points are sound and have an interesting benefit: many of the frequent contributors nudge things in that direction without having to involve the moderators.

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 08:45:48 am
content: I had a similar experience. As a moderator I was forced to ban a prolific historical member in an electronics Forum; he was just causing more flames than good.I remember feeling bad about it and discussing the action with the other members for many weeks.But in the end, the situation is way simpler: sometimes there is just no choice.Since then, my "ban" button has become way lighter and easier to press.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 09:34:30 am
content: The human mind is very interesting, as it develops and gets modified by experience. I recently read through my Tweets from about 10 years ago, and decided to delete each and every one of them. I just dont speak like that anymore, and it wasn't "presentable". I've seen people change their mind about something, political views, sometimes 180 degrees change several times. There are people that experience cyclic behaviour, almost like a bipolar disorder person, that go on "online forum rampages" and then behaving again.

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 09:37:07 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on November 18, 2019, 09:34:30 amDitto. The guy I banned was exactly like this, toggling from bevahed to brat about every six months.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 09:53:52 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2019, 07:11:25 amYou wouldn'tTake Silicon Valley's word for it

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 10:43:48 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 18, 2019, 08:30:25 amAnd I think that's one of the unique things about this forum compared to dozens of others that I'm on.Because it's more focused, with rules about the usual trigger topics, there is less political fighting. So all it usually takes is for one person to post an on-topic comment again and the thread is back on track with most willing to forget about the political argument and get back to technical talk.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 10:47:18 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 18, 2019, 08:08:38 amYep, classic case of a technical forum that because of the other broad categories it offers, people spend all day in the other sections fighting with each other, and that attitude spills over into the technical sections. This is why I refuse to have an "Anything goes" section on this forum, it's a terrible idea in practice.I believe that AllAboutCircuits has a such a tight moderation policy that it's driven many people here. You can't even post a link to another forum or your own website!If you want to see what completely unmoderated gets you, aus.electronics and sci.electronics.design are for you!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 11:40:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2019, 10:47:18 amJust so, but...s.e.d. can be entertaining, it has someveryhigh quality posts in amongst the noise, and Win Hill - one of the authors of the classic "The Art of Electronics" - is a frequent poster.All in all that is merely typical usenet. Ah, the good old days

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 11:51:13 am
content: Extreme nationalism has no place here. I don't think it accomplishes anything at all aside from fueling hate. Although the rants were eye-openers

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 12:00:31 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 18, 2019, 11:40:10 amYes, quite few brilliant high quality contributors, unfortunately often drowned out by the trolls you cannot ban.Usenet, whilst being an old platform was it's own problem, attracting new people to the group was difficult because they'd just get insulted and trolled out of existence in short order. I go back and take a peek once in while and it's still the same few dozen people from 20 years ago, hurling the same exact same insults.Apart from two resident trolls, I used to be the top poster on aus.electronics back in the day.I set up the Aus.electonics Yahoo group as an alternative for a while.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 12:09:36 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2019, 10:47:18 amAgree completely.QuoteThat is simply an "urban myth." I have posted links at AAC on occasion to other forums, including EEVBlog and your YouTube. None of them have been edited.AAC is tight on editing self-serving commercial links, but not commercial links per se. That is, links by others to your You Tube, DigiKey, Mouser, etc. are not censored. Now, if you posted a link to your own You Tube that might be. Quite awhile ago, Jack Ganssle posted on AAC and included a content link to his paper on debouncing that also included a link to his company. That was censored. But a link to his paper itself was not censored and has appeared on AAC many times. The expressed purpose for doing that is to prevent spam. I felt that the decision in the Ganssle case was a bit narrow minded, particularly since one is allowed to include such links in their signatures.As I recall from quite awhile back, I posted a link to another forum here, and that got edited out. Mistakes happen. Maybe a moderator was upset, who knows. But a single instance does not mean it's policy here or there. I felt the rule was applied too rigorously in the Ganssle anecdote, but with any busy forum, one has to accept that errors will get made.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 12:23:34 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2019, 12:00:31 pmThat has been a problem since "eternal september" (and earlier), so there are filtering techniques to address it. In my case I set my newsreader to "ignore subthreads" from persistent twats, so that I don't see them nor responses to their twattishness.Thatrequiresa usenet newsreader (Thunderbird/Seamonkey) in my case. Using a standard browser just wouldn't work.QuoteNo arguments there. Itis"the wild west".Contrariwise some of the extremely high quality posters are still posting. That plus filtering makes it still worthwhileto me.

author: xaxaxa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 12:40:56 pm
content: I didn't get to see all the posts before they got deleted, but from what I can see there *WAS* some xenophobia in there. The thread starter brought in politics and nothing was done about it, but people who pointed out that fact got their posts deleted. I also get the general vibe from other threads here that moderation here is a bit biased. I see constant derails about Chinese counterfeit parts (law: any thread about troubleshooting electronics that goes on sufficiently long will end in people concluding that Chinese and thus counterfeit parts are the culprit despite all other evidence). OTOH I looked at blueskull's post history and can't find much wrong.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 12:58:07 pm
content: The bit (by a north american no more no less) about "spilled blood in the supply chain" was as much uncalled for as blueskull's reply if you ask me.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 01:13:04 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2019, 07:11:25 amIt is a common human behavior to stick to a certain topic like sh*t attracting the flies, but when that starts to become a game to bug others as much as possible it can't become constructive, especially if it is done with the sole purpose to counter effort driven by people that do it voluntarily. It is a complete waste of time to tell people that must know better that this is the wrong place for certain discussions or at least the wrong way to enter certain discussions.QuoteDepending on where you live, in some jurisdictions the right of free speech is guaranteed toward the government and it's institutions or in public only. An internet forum is not necessarily considered public, as no one is obliged to publish any opinion or speech. Ofc once it enters the realm of discrimination or outright libel there are things to argue, but in general the EEVBlog has a technical focus, which makes this less likely to be the right place for politics.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 02:08:34 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on November 18, 2019, 12:58:07 pmThe right thing to do instead of replying is report the comment, explain why and the moderators will edit the post in accordance. Not to reply back with all the guns and strength , specially when his opinion is mainly one sided, and that's OK, is his own thoughts and believes, they should be respected even if they are right/wrong, but in this case the best was report and ignore.I'm guilty also, but I try to justify and also give arguments to the other side. I have cases where I bash China, but others where I defend. I have cases were I bash the West, but other that I defend. I try to provide links as a support to my own opinion. Trying to be unbiased is very hard, but I try my best to. But you can't be totally unbiased. So I try to limit myself into replying in sensitive topics. But probably I also was reported already too.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 03:13:28 pm
content: I was kind of "shocked" when I saw the user you're probably mentioning got banned, as I think he's otherwise a valued contributor, but I can understand. I admit he tended to be much too political too often (I've never really been bothered by it myself, and thought it was sometimes even interesting just for the sake of getting to know about "borderline" opinions, but I can understand this has no place here.)And all in all, I think the moderation on this forum is very light and reasonable compared to most other forums. And you're spot on, allowing more of those political discussions, as interesting as it could be, would make it all the harder to moderate and would eventually kill it.

author: wnorcott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 03:20:26 pm
content: Thank you Dave.

author: xmetal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 05:55:36 pm
content: I've administered and moderated on various forums over the years and political debates can get way out of hand. It's trying to keep a delicate balance between a free-for-all of chaos to being over zealous on the moderation. I think the balance is about right on here and I run my own forum in a similar manner. It can be a thankless task but necessary.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 06:11:05 pm
content: A few philosophical questions, if you'll entertain them --1. All speech is political. To some degree or another; it's a continuum. Agree? Discuss.A related statement: all money is violence, to some degree or another. Agree? Discuss.(This more or less encompasses the two trigger statements, so if we entertain a discussion about it, these are excellent points to consider.)2. What is our decision point, what counts as "too political"?Which, philosophically speaking, is an interesting question in general. Many will take it to mean, "what is the exact line, so I can toe it and cause the legal maximum amount of chaos possible?" -- and rightfully so, rule griefers need to know this precisely.Well, as a moderator myself, and moral person (so I would like to think), I will cut to the chase: a decision point should not be a point as such, but a fuzzy margin, subject to additional considerations. This gives moderators some leeway in making a call, and discourages griefing. (Note the present case, the ban is only temporary, despite the clear and repeated offenses.) Downside, it also introduces inconsistency; an appeal process is desirable.Tim

author: Johnboy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 07:55:41 pm
content: I looked at the text exchanges prior to the ban, and even as recently as yesterday the poster in question was trying to be helpful to other forum members. I can't blame him for feeling insulted by the thread in question; I don't pretend to understand his political stance but there were some rather negative things stated about his home country and he took issue with it. My take on it is that he was banned for defying the warning and insisting on his "right" to speak here, but I also felt he was baited into the response that got him warned to begin with. In my view the other poster should also have been warned directly.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 08:04:14 pm
content: I do enjoy the relative lack of politics here. For many people politics are a branch of religion and not something they are able to have a rational debate about.Usenet really went downhill when services like Google Groups started interfacing with them. People were absolutely clueless to the fact that they were posting on a worldwide unmoderated forum rather than a walled off Google forum. Then soon after that the massive proliferation of spam was a salvo of nails into the coffin.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 08:13:40 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 18, 2019, 08:04:14 pmThat started as a result of "eternal September" a.k.a. "the year September never ended" plus Canter and Siegel.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 08:27:21 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2019, 10:47:18 amI used to use AllAboutCircuits before I found eevblog but they have irritatingly strict rules on allowable topics, e.g. they basically ban anything automotive from fears about liability, and then people hide what their questions are about, and people then responded to that by acting suspiciously about anything with a 12V supply.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 08:41:11 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2019, 07:11:25 amAnother big (ok, huge) online forum I frequent has two forums "Omni" and "Omni/PR" (everything else, everything else/politics+religion). In order to post (or even see) either of those, you need 500 forum posts + 6 months history

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 08:45:20 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on November 18, 2019, 08:27:21 pmShould liability even be a concern? There are countless forums dedicated to automotive topics, others for things like high voltage and xrays, forums about guns and other potentially dangerous stuff, has there ever been a case of a forum sued over some idiot doing something dumb? I fail to see how an automotive circuit is inherently more dangerous than something that plugs into the wall for example.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 08:55:57 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 18, 2019, 08:45:20 pmAsk your lawyer. Maybe for a few $k he will tell you that "it actually is not such a simple matter as it could initially appear, glad that you asked"I mean, you can be liable for hot coffee being hot, right?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 09:01:36 pm
content: Quote from: magic on November 18, 2019, 08:55:57 pmOnly in America. I think everywhere else, the saying "hot things are hot" is generally understood. ;-)

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 09:10:33 pm
content: Sure, but James appears to be an American and so is AAC.I also think Americans need to get their lawyers and politicians under control, butAnd let's be honest, my country is a member in another heaven of absurd bureaucracy, who am I to look down on them?

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 09:12:09 pm
content: Quote from: xaxaxa on November 18, 2019, 12:40:56 pmI have said this a few times in the past. China bashing gets a pass. To be fair when I have reported it generally it has been addressed. Now I prefer to report it than to get into fruitless arguments.The thing is many people throw around xenophobic comments not even realizing that it might not be acceptable in polite company. Like it used to be with blacks or gays. People could just throw around derogatory comments and expected everybody around to agree. In my opinion the best course with such ignorance and xenophobia is not to pick a fight but to warn the author of the remarks that we do not condone derogatory remarks in this company. Not about blacks, not about gays, not about China.In this case I too feel it is unfair to moderate the person who reacted to the provocation and not warn the original poster simultaneously. I would ask the mods to warn that poster as well.I mean , really? Sending money to those subverting a foreign government? I can't think of anything more political or more stupid.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 09:16:15 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 18, 2019, 08:04:14 pmThe C language religion ... strong here it is.In my experience, Usenet went downhill sharply when AOL made it possible for Ma and Pa Redneck to get on the net in the USA. This was decades before Google even existed.My SLRN kill-filter was massive in those days.I agree tho, Google Groups was a second tsunami of trolls after AOL.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 09:20:10 pm
content: Wow. There are 99,999 other blueskulls on the forum?I for one have not been bothered by the politics on the forum.EEV forum is the free-ist place on the planet, to me. It's one of the only active forums that is not super-obviously catered to marketing dollars. And I highly appreciate this place. I am sad to hear that this has been necessary, but at least it was temporary.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 09:46:01 pm
content: He just loves his country and is passionate about defending it. Sure not saying negative things will help but like everyone he sees the world through the lens of what he knows. He just needs to avoid all the extreme predictions and examples. That's what gets people so worked up

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 10:07:11 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 18, 2019, 09:01:36 pmFor the record -- that McDonald's coffee-spill lawsuit is not "generally understood." Pleaseread.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 10:10:11 pm
content: Quote from: maginnovision on November 18, 2019, 09:46:01 pmWhat struck me the most odd about the whole thing was how he continued to piss on the "decadent west" -- but he had no problems attending a public university here in the US to get his degrees. If his attitude is that the US is so "decadent" and "awful," surely he could have attended one of his country's fine institutions of higher learning?

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 10:17:05 pm
content: If by "he" you mean blueskull, yes, I have no problem with his political comments. I take them for what they're worth, and to me, even his political comments are mostly interesting and insightful. I'm just surprised at the sheer number of bans, because blueskull is the only one that would have tweaked my radar.And in a way, I feel like we need blueskull. Because...Quote... I agree with this, completely. Maybe it's a reflection of Dave, himself, but China bashing is cool, here. I mean, when the guy makes "one hung lo" a staple of his vocabulary, what else do you expect? At least Dave does not ban me for saying it.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 10:24:52 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on November 18, 2019, 10:07:11 pm"she tried to hold the cup securely between her knees while removing the lid"if it hadn't been turned into big evil mega corp causes terrible burn on poor old grandma I doubt there would have been a case

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 10:55:37 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 18, 2019, 09:20:10 pmIt is temporary but you may not see him again for several reasons:1) He has vowed not to stop. This presumably includes his recent pattern of jumping into threads and then proudly exclaiming the thread will now get locked because it. I'm likely not going tolerate that for much longer.2) He has threatened that I must change my personal speech or he will leave the forum. Guess my answer.At this point I'd gladly swap for Wuerstchenhund.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 11:12:41 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on November 18, 2019, 10:10:11 pmThe "decadent West" and such like comments are uncalled for and not helpful but he was was answering to someone who is talking about sending money to groups whose aim is to subvert his country. Imagine the reverse. Someone saying "I need to buy some American things so I will quiet my conscience by sending money to the Russians working to subvert the American voting system. Both are equally acceptable which is to say not at all. And yet that comment did not get modded.Quote from: Bassman59 on November 18, 2019, 10:10:11 pmThat is no different from saying China is evil but buy Chinese stuff because it suits them. I don't see any contradiction in either case.Of course, if a foreign student goes around telling his American classmates all the time their country is shit, he will be considered an asshole and ostracized. Just like any American doing the same in China.In passing I will say that it is my experience in general that it is mainly Americans much more than any other nationalities who feel the need to be so nationalistic and bash China. I might be wrong but I think most other nationalities do not bash China half as much as Americans. I am not saying it does not happen at all but it seems to me it is mostly Americans.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 11:15:50 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2019, 10:55:37 pmThat is ridiculous, might as well made the ban permanent.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 11:18:09 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on November 18, 2019, 11:15:50 pmI'm a nice guy apparently.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 11:23:10 pm
content: I feel this is a double loss. Obviously he has made many positive technical contributions. But I also value the insight into the POV of a patriotic Chinese. Like it or not, China is quite important in the world now, and likely to become more so. We all would benefit from understanding them better.A commitment from all of us to not belittle others nationalities would help. And does not require reciprocity. It is the right thing to do. That doesn't mean we can't point out things that require caution. The flood of cheap, low quality stuff that we demand from China and that they are willing to supply is an example. As long as we acknowledge our complicity in that product stream and don't ascribe it to an inherent characteristic of China.And I agree that Dave should not bend to ultimatums from any user.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 11:23:25 pm
content: QuoteI think Americans are more obvious when they do it. Western Europeans are classier when they bash China.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 11:43:51 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on November 18, 2019, 10:24:52 pmYou didn't read the article, that much is obvious.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 11:55:42 pm
content: Quote from: magic on November 18, 2019, 09:10:33 pmI'll be the first to admit we have problems with that, it has gotten ridiculous. I'm afraid the rest of the developed world is not far behind though.Not to say there aren't cases where a person or entity ought to be held responsible but I think a general "use this information at your own risk" warning ought to be an ironclad protection against liability. There is far too many things people are just not allowed to do because of liability reasons. I'm a big proponent of personal responsibility. When someone does something stupid and hurts themselves or others, the responsibility falls squarely on the individual that did something stupid.Regarding the hot coffee, I don't care if it was hotter than it was supposed to be, hot coffee can burn you and should always be treated as if it is dangerously hot. If a person is dumb enough to try holding it in their lap that's on them. Personally I don't eat or drink in my car, 100% of my attention is focused on driving the car.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 12:47:04 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 18, 2019, 08:08:38 amI'm glad it's not just me being paranoid about Whirlpool.What really freaks me out is when someone goes off topic & makes some ridiculous assertion, that is happily accepted, then when I point out that it is incorrect, my posting is deleted as "off topic".Various fora in that place are riddled with "fan boys", &, perhaps "sock puppets", but you are forbidden to use either term.I once started a thread about how my daughter's near new Hyundai died on the way south from Carnarvon, leaving her stuck 100km from the next "speck on the side of the road".I criticised their much vaunted warranty, as it took months to get the thing fixed, no "loaner" car, & so on.Well, the fan boys came out foaming at the mouth!------You would think I had insulted their mothers!Much the same reaction when I criticised iiNet on the appropriate forum for ISPs.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 01:22:28 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 18, 2019, 09:01:36 pmMany years ago when the trotting track in Fremantle still existed (It is a housing development, now), I bought a "black coffee" (no milk) from a takeaway food place at that venue.All good, so far, except that the dumbos used boiling water, but didn't add a bit of cold water to make the temperature similar to that of coffee with milk.At that point, all would have been OK, had they served it in a substantial cup, but, no, it was in one of those foam things.Even so, it still would have been OK, if they had used the holder which is intended for use with such containers when selling hot drinks, but no!------- just the flimsy foam thing.I turned around, sombody bumped me, & I scalded my hand--- it hurt "like the blue blazes"!I got some ice from the bar to put on it, & we headed home, where my poor little Missus had to go out to a "coin in the slot" ice machine to get ice.I kept my hand in ice water all night, & woke up with the pain gone but a very itchy hand, with skin peeling off it.No, I didn't sue anybody, but some people might have learnt a few new swearwords!"The Trots" were touted as a family night out, so there were kids there----imagine if my scalding coffee had landed on someone's child.I would probably have become the villain of the piece!

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 01:46:28 am
content: Quote from: maginnovision on November 18, 2019, 09:46:01 pmHe didn't always defend it.I thought this statement of his was interesting...Quote from: blueskull on November 06, 2017, 07:59:43 pm

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 02:03:38 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on November 18, 2019, 12:09:36 pmI can attest the same. I have posted quite a few links to this forum and to relevant part number searches on commercial distributors and youtube content there. One thing they don't admit is posting about mains and/or high voltage - to me this is a bit on the paranoid side, but every place has its own rules.P.S. JP, the TWD120 is still kicking strong. I spent a bit on a decent PCMCIA Adaptec 1480 and the unit is solid. Thank you very much again!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 02:08:38 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on November 19, 2019, 02:03:38 amSomeone posted a screen capture on this forum about having their post to their own website deleted because along the lines of "This is a commercial forum and we do not allow links to external sites".Maybe I'm thinking of another forum...Maybe it washttps://www.electro-tech-online.com/

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 02:26:42 am
content: Quote from: SparkyFX on November 18, 2019, 01:13:04 pmIt would be nice if that were as true now as it was years ago. The boundary between technical and politics has become blurred and playing Whack-a-mole with politics posts is a consequence of that. I think that is why the TEA thread is so popular with some members. It is a sanctuary from the madding crowd outside. Good luck to them it can stay that way. .

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 02:30:37 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on November 19, 2019, 01:46:28 amThat first one is 100% true though, as far as I know. The second is mostly just an extension. As I understand it the people see 0 reason to risk anything to help others. Duck meat as cheap beef, weighing and offering one bag of product only to switch for another... Morally they don't care so it all comes down to what is better for themselves. Corruption is also a pretty well known issue in China. So those may not be positive things but he's not really speaking poorly about it just honestly. He's also getting ready to go back so that may be playing into it all right now.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 02:51:58 am
content: Ah well, given the situation in that part of the world, he was bound to get himself banned.The irony of demanding free speech, but supporting a government with the world's largest firewall.A lot of things happening in China at the moment I don't approve of, some of it's political, some social, some business related.I wish this stuff didn't effect other countries and engineering related areas, but it does.Having blind faith in government is a bad thing, this is how most of the arguments with my family start.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 03:34:48 am
content: I feel there is a lot of snipping towards China and it's really tiresome to wade though. China is quite capable of producing very high quality BUT there's a market for cheap and those pointing at Chinese products as bottom of the barrel are also in a lot of cases the same people buying the cheapest shittiest products - i.e. generating the demand.People generally don't like to see their home countries bashed and a few are willing to say something.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 03:49:32 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 06, 2017, 07:59:43 pmJust checked what Genesis 6:5 is :Quote

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 03:50:58 am
content: The issue with having a dig at China, Chinese or Chinese made depending on the readers position is narrow or all encompassing depending or state of mind of the reader.For example the view that the Chinese Government is XYZ can and will be taken by some from mainland China in particular as a blanket attack on the Chinese people as a whole making the Author an enemy of ALL Chinese regardless of a factual rational basis. While what is meant is the Chinese Government alone is at fault by doing XYZ. The result is the crys of the butt hurt Chinese online how dare you attack 'US collectively'. This nationalistic defense is part of what we Westerners and non Chinese see as a FAULT in logic or rational thinking. It doesn't make it OK to do this but this is just a fact of how fair critique is seen on some occasions. Time and exposure to other cultures over time will help but meanwhile it is just going to keep happening.There is plenty of other non Chinese examples too but at the risk of starting a Holy war I won't add them here but I am sure you can figure out some other examples.Time for a Coffee my brain hurts and I will welcome @blueskulls technical input again.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 04:01:45 am
content: Quote from: station240 on November 19, 2019, 02:51:58 amAgree, as I don't approve as well how Oz handles the Aborigins. <sarcasm:ON>Just random example where outsider see this as human right problem in Australia ...->https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_Sovereignty->https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murrawarri_RepublicCan you imagine if this Aborigin issues even it is unrealistically blown out of proportions, say by the "fake news" outlets, and then you're constantly being poked and mocked just because you're an Australian ?Even sad thing, say by "luck", you happened to have an Aborigin blood inside you that no one knows, but see you just because you have Oz's flag in your avatar.Its kinda tiresome to see this pattern happened all the time here, don't you think ?

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 04:54:55 am
content: Thank God we in the western democracies do not indulge in nationalistic defence... We know we are great patriots... why ... just look at how well we install democracies into nations in whose back yards we have national interests.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 05:11:10 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on November 19, 2019, 03:34:48 amI believe that some of the problems with Chinese products date back to when the only "customer" was the Government, & letting some shoddy work through was the only way an individual had of "sticking it to the Man".This became ingrained into some sections of the workforce, except they now have various customers who still suffer from that attitude.The thing is, you can make cheap stuff which is reasonably good, & many Chinese products fall into that category.It is also possible to make expensive crap, & some Chinese made stuff falls into that group.I bought a "Wertheim" vacuum cleaner some years ago, which was marketed as a "top line" unit, & for once, I got "sucked in".It was also alleged to feature "German Engineering", but I later found out it was, in fact, made in China.It was also the most worthless heap of duck poo I have ever seen. & we had to go back to the little old Japanese Sanyo.The engineering difference was like night & day---- the Sanyo had an "on-off" switch on the "wand", with the mains wires embedded in the flattened side of the hose.Wertheim had a switch on the wand for the powerhead, with the wiring flopping around in the hose, making it easy for things to foul on it, blocking the hose.Another delight was overheating after 10 minutes, necessitating an hour or more of cooldown time.The Wertheim ended up in a "kerbside rubbish pickup".After a long time, the Sanyo finally died, so I replaced it with an "Ozito" wet & dry cleaner (again from China) for the princely sum of $A50.It works like a charm, is noisy as a jumbo jet, &, after a couple of years, shows no sign of failure.Two examples---- one horribly costly & rubbish, & another, "cheap as dirt" & excellentBoth from China.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 05:24:03 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on November 19, 2019, 02:03:38 amAh, now I remember, that's why I either left there promptly or didn't join, I remember seeing that rule now. I refuse to be treated like a small child, if I can't even discuss mains voltage stuff then they're going to have to do without my contributions.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 05:25:39 am
content: I know this might seem tangential, but I think part of the problem with politics on this forum might be alleviated if there were a way to unfollow a thread that has gone off the rails. There are a few threads that I've participated in months or years ago, that rage on, and as a result I almost wince when I click "new replies." It's much easier for me to not respond to something if I don't see it. :-)

author: MyHeadHz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 06:28:03 am
content: First off, judging by some other replies, many only saw some of the lighter comments. Dave showed restraint that I didn't think was possible given the nature of those posts (in more than one topic...). Suffice it to say that if you think Dave was harsh, you absolutely did not see the relevant posts.That being said...There is a lot of political turmoil currently that is leaking into many different areas. I cannot (and will not) defend the person in question in this case, but I do have to say that it must really weigh on someone emotionally to be from a country on one end of a political spectrum, but work in a country on the opposite end. Those situations have a tendency to regularly put "outsiders" in the middle of power struggles, whether they want to be there or not. There is probably an emotional limit to functioning rationally in such a situation for everyone.It also tends to amplify things when someone "identifies" as something, rather than simply relates or agrees with a position. People are increasingly pressured into boxes, whether they want to be in them or not- especially in certain organizations, political groups, or regions. This trend isn't showing any signs of slowing down.As others have mentioned, some groups can work well on a small scale indefinitely. When limited to rational people, regardless of politics, rational people can maturely discuss even the most sensitive topics productively. However, as others have also mentioned, a sudden lowering of the barrier to entry can ruin it in short order. It is a constant threat, and no topic seems to be immune. Ease of access for all sounds like a good idea until it kills your favorite boards. Now just imagine if the great firewall was suddenly removed...People are happy in their echo chambers, but there is just no way to keep these groups apart indefinitely. We need to learn to communicate with everyone, not just our in groups. I'm less than optimistic that we will, so I expect to see a lot more of this in the future. Interesting times ahead...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 07:30:51 am
content: FFS a threading explaining that we need to stop the political discussions has now gone full politics! shall we ban everyone?

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 07:36:06 am
content: Quote from: djacobow on November 19, 2019, 05:25:39 amI'm pretty sure that's part of the "Ignore Topics" feature. I've used it a few times, but not in recent history.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 07:36:26 am
content: The older of us here will remember the quality of Japanese goods when we were young...............

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 07:38:52 am
content: Quote from: Simon on November 19, 2019, 07:30:51 amI wondered why Dave didn't lock this after the OP.It seems he wanted discussion but maybe that would have been best in the Supporters board.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 07:40:13 am
content: THERE!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 07:47:05 am
content: Quote from: djacobow on November 19, 2019, 05:25:39 amThere is an Ignore topic option.