TinySA Ultra launched - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 08:50:50 am
content: Hi,Erik has (finally) launched the TinySA Ultra, which features a bigger 4" screen and increased frequency range.More info on his webpage:https://www.tinysa.org/wiki/And Youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/@ErikKaashoekThe device can be ordered, but will only be available for shipping on the first december week.Ordered one to be my xmas present...Regrads,Vitor

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 11:10:35 am
content: is this it?https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004934403303.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.5.8f4d534bS6Xbjo&algo_pvid=3af05e74-5c62-40fd-8dfa-11a24b2764d7&algo_exp_id=3af05e74-5c62-40fd-8dfa-11a24b2764d7-2&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000031071230923%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%21119.0%21119.0%21%21%21%21%21%40211bea6216687696035216601d0746%2112000031071230923%21sea&curPageLogUid=WmPUnfd3PeIY

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 02:55:32 pm
content: Yes, seems correct.On the TinySA Wiki you get directl links to official resellers. This is important because there are tons of clones, at least of the first TinySA model. These have inferior filters.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 08:01:50 pm
content: Does anyone have an experienced opinion on this unit?My needs are such that I cannot justify spending $1,400+++ for an SA, but I can justify the price of this.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 08:04:31 pm
content: It works according to specs.If it is useful for you depends on your use case.

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 11:49:38 pm
content: Do I really need it?No, but now I know it exists I'm going to want it enough to need it...

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 11:50:59 pm
content: Did you read my mind?

author: aristarchus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 10:21:04 am
content: Just received a TinySA Ultra from Eleshop.To me it looks amazing what it does considering its size and cost.Got a DSA815-TG and did not consider buying the previous TinySA.Now with the Ultra, appart from a SA up to 5.34G it has also a signal generator to those frequencies and I could not resistAnd it can go beyond 5.34G up to 20G by using harmonics.Its firmware looks pretty polished and it has also an external windows application if you want to control it via a PC, it gives more screen resolution and measure points this way.It came with an included 32G microSD for data storage/screen captures.So far so good.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 12:07:42 pm
content: Again, read the specs. The precision varies according to the higher bandwidth being enabled. This is why Eric, the developer, choose to have it activated via a password, to make sure people understand the pros and cons of higher bandwidth. It does use harmonics to feed the mixer.But no doubt it is the SA with the best price/function relation.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 12:24:30 pm
content: Honestly, I can not find any reference to a reseller on the official TinySA Wiki website.Or do I miss out on something?Quote from: Bicurico on November 18, 2022, 02:55:32 pm

author: aristarchus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 12:38:38 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on March 18, 2023, 12:24:30 pmhttps://tinysa.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Main.Buying

author: 4thDoctorWhoFan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 11:17:36 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on March 18, 2023, 12:24:30 pmI just received my Ultra from the Zeenko store on AliExpress. Got it in about 2 weeks. The price was cheapest around.

author: 13hm13
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 09:18:10 pm
content: Got mine. Seems to work fine. But very slow performer all around.

author: 13hm13
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 09:29:53 pm
content: The TinySA-Ultra is being fed a 1k sine wave.Span is 0hz to 10khz, with start 0hz, center of 5k. stop 10k.Why does the trace begin with that HUGE spike at 0hz at the Left hand margin ? (If I chose another Start freq,, say 200 hz, same spike at that Left hand margin)

author: gf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 09:57:19 pm
content: According to the specs, maximum input level is10 dBm. If I can see that correctly in the photo you feed a 5V amplitude into the spectrum analyzerDo not destroy your tinySA!

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 10:13:00 pm
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on March 31, 2023, 09:29:53 pmYou are operating outside the range of the device. It does not go lower than 100 kHz and is not ment for audio frequencies.It is normal for many spectrum analyzers to show a spike near DC frequencies. This is an artifact and not true measurement.Beware you are at the limit of input power. Max is +18 dBm peak to peak which equals 5V or 1.7V rms. I would stay below 1V.

author: 13hm13
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 10:49:08 pm
content: 3.3v - 5v is std TTL logic voltage on my devices.Maybe input current is the more worrisome factor?It's a bit strange that a mass-market device like NanoSA would not allow 5v input. Or have built-in protection (or warning messages) if ran into such limits. Yes?If not, how does one "safely" probe IC pins that are at 5v TTL? Use a probe with resistor?BTW: The 5v amplitude isdefaulton many Signal Gens like the budget Kollertron in my photo.

author: gf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 11:11:41 pm
content: Seehttps://tinysa.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Main.HomePageQuote from: tinySA wikiUse an attenuator, say 20dB.

author: 13hm13
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 11:27:16 pm
content: The dB value should also incorporate current somehow, yes?I measured the output of the Koolertron sig-gen directly measuring current into my Fluke 87 dmm.At 5.0v amplitude , 1k (similar to my photo) , I read 211 uA. Micro amps. How can 211 micro-amps fry the TinySA?

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 11:34:34 pm
content: The TinySA is an unconventional design that makes quite a few compromises compared to a "proper" one. That is what makes it possible to have a useful SA at all at this price point and in this form factor. The maximum input level is one of them (high minimum RBW and lack of proper image rejection in the high band are others).If you want to look at larger signals, you need to add an attenuator (for 50 ohm sources) or you could try making your own 10x or 20x low-Z probe from some coax and a 450/950 ohms resistor. I think this has been discussed a few times on the forum.

author: 13hm13
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 01:35:03 am
content: I have the TinySAULTRAwhich has different specs:https://tinysa.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=TinySA4.SpecificationNote +/- 5v input.I am not planning on using TinySA Ultra for anything other than a sig gen or ttl voltage (IC pins).I'm not into HAM or radio/wireless applications.The Ultra was supplied with some accessory cables and adapters but no attenuator.I don't think Tiny would have put out a device that is not robust enough to handle a std. signal gen. The warnings are for higher power applications (HAM, wireless, etc).I also own a NanoVNA, all used w/o attenuator.All that said, 10-30 attenuator(s) would be a good addition to any SA kit.

author: Slh
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 06:07:43 am
content: My understanding of RF equipment is based on the last 4 months with a nanovna and tinysa so some of this might be wrong...The spec short term peak +20dBm with 30dB attenuator implies that when you have the internal attenuator enabled then you can put up to 100mW into the tinySA ultra. If you don't have the attenuator enabled then it has a separate +6dB which is more like 5mW.The tiny sa ultra has an input impedance in it's working specified range of 50 ohms.I expect that it has an AC coupled input which is how it can support the max DC +/-5V.You're supplying a peak sine wave of +/-5V which would give around 200mW of power into a 50 ohm load like the tinysa ultra. So double the peak short term rated power.If it's undamaged the I expect that you've got away with it because the high pass filter on the input is >10kHz so, if the capacitor is first, it attenuated everything for you.Spectrum analysers are designed to measure very low signals over a very wide bandwidth. Unfortunately, this is incompatible with a very robust input so users are expected understand the specifications before they use them. Fortunately, the great thing about the tinySA and tiny SA ultra is that they are cheap enough to make mistakes with. Expensive spectrum analysers are also not robust and you would not be feeling good if you blew up a £20k one...The warnings are for any source. If you set your signal generator to 100kHz, +/-5V then I expect that you would definitely have damaged it.

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 07:50:44 am
content: Quote from: 13hm13An SA has to operate with very very small signals like -110 dBm. Combine this with a very large frequency spectrum and you get a huge operating area where the performance is critical.Just about any protection device on the input would severely reduce that performance in the small signal area and nobody wants that. It is just simpler and much cheaper for every user to understand that spectrum analyzers and attenuators goes hand in hand.Quote from: 13hm13What attenuator a user would need is a wild guess. What power ? What frequency range ? What quality and price ? Not a bad idea but there are so many options.

author: aristarchus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 08:16:48 am
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on March 31, 2023, 09:29:53 pmSome of the specs of TinySA Ultra (fromhttps://tinysa.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=TinySA4.Specification)======Spectrum Analyzer spec:Input frequency range from 100kHz to 800MHz in normal mode and up to 6GHz with ULTRA mode enabledInput impedance 50 ohm when input attenuation set to 10dB or more.Selectable manual and automatic input attenuation between 0dB and 31dB in 1 dB steps when LNA not activeMaximum +/-5V DC inputAbsolute maximum input level of +6dBm with 0dB internal attenuationAbsolute maximum short term peak input power of +20dBm with 30dB internal attenuationSuggested maximum input power of +5dBm with internal attenuation in automatic modeFor best measurements keep input power below -25dBm...======1KHz is outside the 100KHz to 800MHz-5GHz spec, that means the instrument cannot show valid measurements in that frequency. (even my Rigol DSA815-TG cannot work there, it has 9 kHz as lowest limit)5Vpp in 50 Ohm is +18dBm.Note the "short term peak input power" and that means you should not keep that measurement beyond a few seconds.Also and most importantly, all the maximum ratings (V, dBm, etc) are for use with the internal attenuators enabled, that means you should always use it in AUTO or put the attenuation on manually, if you (just because you are curious) set the internal attenuation to 0 or enable the LNA and decrease attenuator, then the chances are you will damage your instrument.

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 10:16:32 am
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on March 31, 2023, 11:27:16 pmThe dBm value is measured in milliwatts and can be converted to current or voltage is using Ohms Law. The input of the TinySA is 50 ohm.Also you can not probe TTL input directly because 50 ohm will look like a short to most chips. Even if the instrument survives the circuit gets fried.Spectrum Analysers are not usually used to probe TTL like that. The usual case for checking digital circuits with a SA is for EMI compliance. This is done with a contactless probe. Basically just a coil of wire that is brought near the chip. This picks up enough signal that you can view it on the SA.

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 10:38:12 am
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on March 31, 2023, 10:49:08 pmUsually a SA is not used to sample digital IC pins like that and the analog RF circuit would include methods to tap the signal if relevant.However if you wanted to, you could use a 5k resistor. This would then form a voltage divider with the 50 ohm in the instrument. You would get 1% of the signal. Beware however the 5V DC limit because you could easily exceed that even with the resistor.

author: erikka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 11:15:56 am
content: The tinySA is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world where signals are typically transferred in a setup that uses a characteristic impedance of 50 ohm for optimal power transfer between generator and receiver.Audio applications work in various impedance environments such as 600 ohm or high impedance.A 5 volt RMS signal in a 50 ohm system equals +27dBm and will kill your tinySA very quickly.5v at 0.22mA suggests a source impedance of 25kOhm. If the max current the generator can supply is indeed 0.22mA a 50 ohm load will only receive -7dBm but don't rely on my calculations. You better NOT connect the tinySA to your audio signal generator. You seem to get -3.6dBm so the source impedance of your generator is about 12kOhmFor pure audio applications the phase noise of the tinySA prevents it to measure at frequencies below 10kHz and dynamic range drops quickly below 100kHz. Level is calibrated down to 20kHz.There is no solution for this problem.Any RF SA that uses an oscillator to do frequency translation (instead of using an ADC to directly sample the input) will have a problem with measuring signals at very low frequencies.For these low frequencies you best use a dedicated appliance

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 11:24:02 am
content: Quote from: erikkaTwo issues. First his multimeter probably can not measure current at the frequency, so the measurement is likely invalid. Second the impedance of TinySA at 1 kHz is likely not 50 ohm with this frequency being way outside the range of the instrument.

author: Solder_Junkie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 11:40:12 am
content: There is a serious lack of understanding from some on this thread. The TinySA is a radio frequency test instrument, not an audio frequency one, nor is it something to look at TTL (or CMOS) levels on a board.You normally use a spectrum analyser with a power attenuator to examine the harmonic and other spurious signals from a transmitter. Equally you can measure the oscillator level in a receiver to ensure it is the correct level to feed a mixer, for example +7dBm to feed a diode ring mixer.Used with care, the TinySA Ultra is a very good piece of test equipment for hobby use. It is around 1/10th the cost of the nearest budget professional hand held SA, one example being a Thurlby Thandar series 3 or 5.https://www.aimtti.com/Regards Dave

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 11:58:47 am
content: Quote from: Solder_Junkie on April 01, 2023, 11:40:12 amThat depends on what the transmitter is... it can be a clock line on a board that causes too much emissions. Or a switching power supply. I do use a spectrum analyser with a probe (using a low-Z HF probe with internal attenuation) to measure all kinds of signals on a board in order to see what their high frequency content is. This requires to take signal level and DC level limits into account.The real problem is lack of understanding understanding how a spectrum analyser works and what to expect from it.

author: 13hm13
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 02:55:55 pm
content: Quote from: erikka on April 01, 2023, 11:15:56 amNot only is your reply significantly confusing, you are significantly confused by my use and my signal gen.This is my sig gen:https://www.koolertron.com/koolertron-dds-signal-generator-counter-2-4in-screen-display-30mhz-high-precision-dual-channel-arbitray-waveform-generator-frequency-meter.htmlI used a Fluke 87 DMM to measure the voltage of Koolertron generating 1khz at 5 v_p-p . The Fluke 87 DMM reads about 1.3 V_ac.You , Erik Kaashoek:, note: "The tinySA is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world where signals are typically transferred in a setup that uses a characteristic impedance of 50 ohm for optimal power transfer between generator and receiver."This is new to me!The video here notes:" A short video introducing the tinySA, a small 0.1MHz to 350MHz handheld spectrum analyzerthatalsocan be used as a signal."generator"So if the Tiny SA (Ultra) is "is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world " (your words, not mine),why does the Tiny SA unit also offer freqs and options below typical RF (say, 0-100khz)?

author: 13hm13
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 03:14:11 pm
content: Quote from: Solder_Junkie on April 01, 2023, 11:40:12 amWhatever the case, a device intended for the budget hobbyist should be robust enough for, say, high-school labs. So the Tiny SA,out of the box(the default supplied kit), should be able handle a device like my very common Koolertron sign gen.https://www.koolertron.com/koolertron-dds-signal-generator-counter-2-4in-screen-display-30mhz-high-precision-dual-channel-arbitray-waveform-generator-frequency-meter.htmlIf not, then the Tiny SA should not be marketed as hobbyist device. Or that it should come with plenty of PRINTED notices -- in the box -- about possibility of damage from devices like a simple sig. gen. And/or come with, say, an attenuator ... like:20 dB - Fixed Attenuator SMA Male To SMA Female Up To 3 GHz Rated To 2 Watts With Gold Plated Brass Body

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 03:16:24 pm
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on April 01, 2023, 02:55:55 pmBecause it doesn't. Read the fine manual:https://www.tinysa.org/wiki0.1 MHz == 100 kHzAlso, shouting in gigantic font is unbecoming.

author: 13hm13
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 03:22:01 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on April 01, 2023, 03:16:24 pmActually, that link notes:Switchable resolution bandpass filters from 200Hz to 850kHz

author: erikka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 03:30:22 pm
content: Thanks for spotting this opportunity for improving the wiki.This is about the width of the resolution filters. Not the center frequency.I will mprove the text to reduce possible confusion by novice users

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 03:42:13 pm
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on April 01, 2023, 03:22:01 pmHow about working on understanding how a spectrum analyzer works instead of arguing with people who do, from a position of ignorance?If you can't beat em, join emThe RBW filter hasnothingto do with the frequency range of a SA. See:https://www.everythingrf.com/community/what-is-resolution-bandwidth

author: JeremyC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 03:43:52 pm
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on April 01, 2023, 03:14:11 pmI’m guessing that you misunderstood purpose ofRFspectrum analyzers andRFgenerators.You should watch these videos:

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 03:57:24 pm
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on April 01, 2023, 02:55:55 pmThat is typical for about every spectrum analyser. Heck, you can even configure some for a span of 100MHz using a 20MHz center frequency so the frequency range goes from-30MHz to 70Mhz. It doesn't mean the spectrum analyser can deliver guaranteed results below the specified minimum frequency. May I strongly suggest to learn more about spectrum analysers? Then you will be able to understand how certain settings work. And for sure there is also a bunch of legacy stemming from the old analog age where hard boundaries where a lot harder to set so these where just left as-is expecting the operator to know how to do her/his job.

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 04:17:44 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 01, 2023, 03:57:24 pmThe Tiny SA clearly makes some measurement below 100 kHz and maybe that can be useful for some. You just need to understand that it is outside the range of the instrument and so any absolute readings are not going to be valid.13hm13 appears to be angry that the instruments are not "safe" but really, just because something is marketed to us mortal hobby people does not mean it is a toy. The Tiny SA is not behaving any different in this regard than much more expensive professional instruments. To use it you need to learn and know enough electronics and that includes knowledge about the RF domain. To mr. 13hm13 you said you do not want to do RF so why are you playing with an instrument that only does RF? If you only want to inspect audio level frequencies, the cheap hobby option is to use a sound card with a program on your PC.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 04:19:00 pm
content: With lab-grade spectrum analyzers, working up to > 1 GHz, many of them work down to 9 kHz (I don't know where that exact frequency comes from).For example, Siglent SSA3000X Spectrum Analyzers offer a frequency range of 9 KHz to 2.1 or 3.2 GHz.My ancient Marconi 2380/2382 RF spectrum analyzer goes from 100 Hz to 400 MHz.A very useful thing lacking from the Tiny SA series, at their extremely low price, is a tracking generator, since the generator function cannot be used at the same time as the SA function.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 04:19:30 pm
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on April 01, 2023, 03:14:11 pmOnly difference is that hobbyist blows up 50 euro Tiny SA and professionals blow up 40 000 euro R&S spectrum analyzer.Anyone interested in 7Ghz Rohde& Schwarz? 40k usd some years ago, now you can have this cheaply!Only couple of small components broken on input stage. Diode or two in best case.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 05:51:06 pm
content: Quote from: mzzj on April 01, 2023, 04:19:30 pmi got a Anritsu 9kHz-13GHz MS8609A last time for $1K, fully working no need to repair a single diode. you can still have many "was for professional" options in ebay for 500-2K, ANritsu, HP, R&S etc... i think now i can design and verify up to 10GHz of digital mobile communication device since i think thats what MS8609A was designed for, it has some constellation plot feature that i'm not yet know how to appreciate or use, the only problem now is time, just to learn the stuffs, let alone of actually doing all that.

author: 13hm13
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 06:26:38 pm
content: You're a confused group!What is the ultimate utility of a product like Tiny SA?It's worse than USELESS because it does not have the robustness of a child's toy. Yes, folks ... it does come across that way, even tho' the toyness may not have been the intention of the orig designer(s) .... but many of the YouTube influencers that have featured the Tiny products gloss over safety and protection and fragility issues.Reminiscent of a typical Kickstater-like project that gets the filter bubbles and echo chambers all worked up .... over a product that will ultimately be shoved into a drawer until the same folks afflicted with perpetual boredom go for the next Kickstater.BTW ... my Koolertron ... and my Fluke 87. Yes, the Koolertron out impedance is 50 ohms. And the raw measured AC voltage of the sig gen outputting 2k at 5 v_p-p is 1.73 Vac.

author: erikka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 06:30:03 pm
content: Can you run the selftest on the tinySA to confirm no harm was done?Or to know if something did go wrong?

author: aristarchus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 06:35:53 pm
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on April 01, 2023, 06:26:38 pmThat means you need to understand what is measured with the instruments you got there. Of course 5Vpp is 1.768V RMS, your Fluke is a True RMS multimeter.

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 07:04:09 pm
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on April 01, 2023, 06:26:38 pmIt is for HAM or radio/wireless applications.QuoteSeems that you bought the wrong toy then.QuoteNo it is actually quite useful for the people that need it. That is not you.One simple example of the use of a spectrum analyzer is to connect a radio transmitter, through a suitable attenuator, to check that harmonics are below the legal limit. Before Tiny SA this was not available for cheap to the common HAM operator. We had to do with used equipment if we could do the measurement at all.And so you buy an instrument that is made exclusively for RF but you do not want to use it for RF. Instead you try using it wrong and get angry that it might get damaged and not work correctly? You never told us why exactly you got an SA - what exactly are you trying to measure? You should probably sell the SA and instead ask for advice on how to measure whatever it is you have that needs measuring.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 08:00:50 pm
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on April 01, 2023, 06:26:38 pmYou didn't read the specifications of the product you bought before you bought it now you are mad at the world because it doesn't meet the specifications you imagined?Sounds like you got yourself into a real ID-10-T situation.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 12:19:47 am
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on April 01, 2023, 06:26:38 pmcan you go away out of this thread? you are the confused one, and annoying too... first you are confusing BW and RBW, and then you use annoyingly large font, do you have eye sight problem? if you had a bad day with chinese product, we are sorry for that, obviously it is not for you, but not necessarily for others, we bought few chinese toys and we like it, now please go away especially if you want to keep using large fonts. its a sign of problem or rudeness on your side.

author: JeremyC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 12:30:05 am
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on April 01, 2023, 06:26:38 pmWhy are you trying to insult members of this board? Do you realize how much would cost device like the TinySA back in 1990's? BTW, did you understand what is purpose of network analyzers ?

author: 13hm13
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 03:44:22 am
content: Quote from: erikka on April 01, 2023, 06:30:03 pmA good question -- you are rare in this group.Yes, all okay with self-test. No other misbehavior either. BTW: I have taken the V_pp to into Tiny SA Ultra as high as 8v. I was curiousBut no issues -- the traces remained smooth and not even a glitch.BTW: Why does the Tiny SA Ultra specs state:Spectrum Analyzer spec:[...]Maximum +/-5V DC input[...]https://tinysa.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=TinySA4.Specification

author: 13hm13
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 04:05:30 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on April 02, 2023, 12:19:47 amActually, many of "my" queries are posed on behalf of several high-school students in an extra-curricular electronics program I'm involved with. Their teenage budgets have made them curious about Tiny projects like the Tiny SA. If they can plug their phone's earphone out into the SA and look at spectral waveforms ...that's cool.The "Tiny" phone-like form factor of the Tiny SA and NanoVNA is attractive for teenage minds. But if the these devices are not robust out of the box -- say via abuilt-in 20 db atten., engaged by default, but that is menu-defeatable for more experienced users -- then their packaging notes should includeCAUTIONandWARNINGtagsLARGE BOLD SCRIPT. Or they should include -- in the box of default accessories the Tiny comes with -- a 20 - 30 db sma in-line atten.About the "Chinese" comment ... I thought that the Tiny SA project was created in Europe (Netherlands??), and maybe manuf in China? Or are both the Tiny SA and NanoVNApureChinese products -- inspiration, design, topology, project management, production/distribution (of course) ?

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 04:08:33 am
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on April 02, 2023, 04:05:30 amNo. They should not. You should read the specifications before you buy.

author: 13hm13
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 04:11:08 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on April 01, 2023, 08:00:50 pmSo we are living in a dream simul (situ) ation ;-) You bet!

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 04:21:51 am
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on April 02, 2023, 04:11:08 amWell, they say that for the average human perception is more important than reality. The thing is, people in the sciences and technology strive to get closer to reality. For them, what it should be, or what it looks like, are irrelevant. They want to know what it really is. That's why the entire T & M industry exists. And they all (every firckin' one of them) expect you to read an understand the specifications of the equipment they sell. I warrant that in most cases equipment like this is not marketed to laypersons. These are not coffee makers. You are expected to have a modicum of understanding before you engage.BTW, did you read anyting at all on the tinysa.org site?If you have students, I pity them.

author: 13hm13
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 04:40:02 am
content: BTW: If, as many of you are now claiming, that the Tiny SA is intended for RF, then:It is notreallya "SPECTRUM ANALYZER" and should not be marketed as one. Maybe shout at all the vloggers and influencers about this.It should not work for audio frequencies (which it does quite well) and it should not contain menu options and selections for below-RF freqs (which it does indeed).But many of y'all are completely ignorant of these facts.Because you are not really familiar with the actualinternaldesign.Who designed the Tiny and WHY?Maybe stuff like this is a typical pet project or proof-of-concept project -- the mentality behind it being: "yeah, we can make it cheap and small. But man will it be delicate and slow. Who cares ... as long as it works for a few weeks ... and keeps the troops entertained."Frankly, my students and I find the Tiny SA Ultra to be quite slow ... it takes its sweet time to boot, and then up and catch up changes in input. So the ultimate end user for such an item is bit a UFO-ey.Weird!Serious RF designers will use serious, $$ devices by Tektronix or R&S or Agilent.That leaves budget hobbyists ... but who? HAM radio enthusiasts? Is that the "intended audience" for products like Tiny?Or is the "intended audience" just another shopping cart addict wanting another cheap toy to play with?Please, pontificate ...

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 04:43:11 am
content: Fuck. I give up.Is your earth nice and flat too?

author: 13hm13
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 04:58:08 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on April 02, 2023, 04:21:51 amYes, it's unclear how and why certain stuff arises in "reality" ... like our friend, the Tiny. Were the designers "possessed" to develop and promote such a weird,nicheproduct? It's like UFOs or all the Randall Carlson stuff ... poof ... magic and dreams.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 05:02:02 am
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on April 02, 2023, 04:58:08 amNo. You have missed the point on sooo... many levels.Stop trolling or you will be reported.

author: erikka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 05:23:30 am
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on April 02, 2023, 04:40:02 amI designed the tinySAThese were the design goals for the tinySA Basic:Standalone portable RF SAMaximum retail price 50$Usable by novice SA userReliable measurementsSpur freeAll the functions of a big SAFrequency range from 100kHz to 350MHzNo need for very narrow RBW (use your favorite SDR)And these where the goals for the UltraEverything the tinySA Basic doesBigger display (4”)Real LNA so lower NF (below 5)Narrower resolution filters (200Hz minimum)Much higher single input frequency range (up to 800MHz)Storage for measurements and screenshots (SD slot)3.5mm audio output for AM demodulation and trigger beep.I'm happy to hear your tinySA did survive

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 07:47:41 am
content: Would it be feasible/possible to use two tiny's one as a tracking gen and another one as SA synchronizing them over USB ?I'm not using TinySA (Ultra) often but every time I use it is proven to be a bigbighelp. A very much thanks to Erik.Later edit: What I had in mind was to update NanoVNA python software to simulate TG function. But if the MCU inside has USB host capability TG might be implemented in firmware.

author: erikka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 08:16:37 am
content: There is currently no USB host function in the sw

author: 13hm13
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 08:32:09 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on April 02, 2023, 04:43:11 amWhoa, toots ... back off the ledge now ... nice n' easy . Give the fire dept some time to set up the Rapid Air Cushion:About using the TinySA for audio ... some of you think this is nuts.My students, who often post on my behalf (they have full access to my EEV Blog account), have some comments. I'll let "Miceal Jacson" chime in:Hey, there. We ain't talkin' 'bout audio in the wireless/broadcast spectrum ... ya know ... HAM or AM or FM or TV or shortwave .. the RF'y stuff. We're talkin audio electronic devices that are completelylocal...inyour CD player or D/A processor. And no ... SA (audio software) via the typical data-acquisition (sound card) ain't gonna work.So what's this hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh skoooooooooooooooler 'ferrin' ta?

author: 13hm13
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 08:49:00 am
content: Quote from: erikka on April 02, 2023, 05:23:30 amI paid $140 for an Ultra. From AliExpress. This is a fair price.Confused about your comments. If you are the designer then please comment as to why the unit survived.You may use this:https://www.ahsystems.com/EMC-formulas-equations/dBm_Volts_Watts_Conversion.phpAlso, have look at:... And comment on the Tiny SA's built-in Variable Atten and Mixer. Do you have a schematic?

author: erikka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 09:02:06 am
content: For technical info look here:https://tinysa.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=TinySA4.TechnicalDescriptionIf you open the device you can see the part numbers.The build in attenuator is the PE4312:https://www.psemi.com/products/rf-attenuators/general-purpose-rf-digital-step-attenuators/pe4312The mixer is the ADE-25MH:https://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/ADE-25MH.pdf

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 09:58:14 am
content: Well, this has taken a weird turn...In any case, I noticed that 13hm13's TinySA seems to be labelled "+6 dBm MAX" and not +10 dBm. I wonder what the story behind that is. It certainly has the potential to add to the apparent confusion.

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 10:50:00 am
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on April 02, 2023, 08:32:09 amWe don't think it is nuts. We are telling you that it wont work. The minimum frequency of the TinySA is 100 kHz. The maximum frequency of audio is 20 kHz. Is this a special brand of highschool where you can't realize that one number is bigger than the other?But that is not the only problem. TinySA has a minimums resolution bandwidth of 200 Hz. This means it can't tell anything apart that is closer than 200 Hz. That is absolutely no good for audio.There is also the problem of how are you going to sample the signals? Connecting TinySA does not only have the potential to destroy the TinySA but it will probably also destroy your CD player. I fear you believe the TinySA is a cheap oscilloscope! A scope has high impedance input which means you can probe electrical circuits with minimum loading. Spectrum analyzers are not used in that way. They have very low impedance input and will absolute crash and destroy anything you touch because the input is practically shorting to ground. Can only be connected to RF outputs that are made to deliver RF power at 50 ohm impedance. Or to an antenna.The correct instruments to work on a CD player is a good oscilloscope and, yes, a sound card to sample the audio and do spectrum analysis in software. You could also try the FFT function of the scope. There does exist special audio analyzers that the prof people use, but alas nobody made a "tiny" version of those and I suspect you wont be able to afford one (unless you find a used vintage).Instead of keep spewing garbage all over the site, you could just tell us what exactly you need to measure or what you are working on and get much better advice. Preferably in another thread as this one is about TinySA, which happens to be about RF not audio.

author: gf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 11:43:04 am
content: Quote from: rteodor on April 02, 2023, 07:47:41 amWhat TG+tinySA use case do you have in mind that cannot be covered by NanoVNA/LiveVNA/etc. alone?

author: 13hm13
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 06:28:37 pm
content: Quote from: baldurn on April 02, 2023, 10:50:00 ambaldurn:You make so many false assumptions, I lost track. You lack both technical background and emotional control, in a group of your own peers (most are not mine), an (hence) embarrass yourself repeatedly, in a popular public interface such as EEV blog forum.The high-school student is way ahead of the pack in what he noted. Go back to the internals of a CD player.And you can even use a NanoVNA for this application.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 06:37:02 pm
content: There is absolutely nothing wrong with what Baldurn is suggesting. I feel truly sorry for your students... It reminds me of the phrase: 'Those who can, do; those who can't, teach'. It is no surprise you feel your students are way ahead, they likely are way ahead of you. Maybe let your students figure out which instrument to use for audio. They likely come up with some nifty phone app which uses the internal audio codec ('soundcard') from their phones and uses some FFT to do frequency analysis of the signal.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 06:52:28 pm
content: Quote from: switchabl on April 02, 2023, 09:58:14 amMine, received just 2 days ago, also says +6dBm and 5VDC MAX. I notice the picture on the tinysa.org website shows +10dBm and 10VDC MAX. However, the one of the pictures on the Zeenko store on AliExpress shows the same as mine (+6dBm/5VDC) but another picture there shows +10dBm and 5VDC!?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 07:27:30 pm
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on April 01, 2023, 02:55:55 pmAlso can you please stop posting in large fonts like that. People are not stupid or blind!

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 07:55:20 pm
content: Quote from: 13hm13You realize that most versions of the NanoVNA have a lower frequency limit of 50 kHz and therefore can not measure in the audio domain?Instead you can use the Bode plot function of some modern oscilloscopes. This is cheap and easy. Both Rigol and Siglent have this in their lower end offerings.I do hope it is not the case, that you bought the TinySA thinking it could replace the scope?

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 10:41:40 pm
content: My HP 8560A & 8593E SAs both have warning labels to not apply *any* DC and the input damage level. I am not aware of any professional piece of RF T&M kit that lacks such warnings.As mentioned buy some attenuators.Reg

author: wd8dsb
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 11:29:15 am
content: 13hm13You must be careful with your NanoVNA too. Here is a quote from another forum about the maximum allowable signal level on the NanoVNA ports.“So what is the maximum power that can be applied to the input port? Leon Huang, the designer of the NanoVNA-F, replied that it is +20 dBm as shown in the second attachment. All NanoVNA variants using a resistive bridge share the same front end design, so I think the +20 dBm specification is applicable across the board.Also note in the partial schematic Leon provided that the NanoVNA port input is DC coupled, so if the device you are testing is dc powered ensure the dc is decoupled from the NanoVNA test port. If not, similar damage may occur from DC power exceeding 100 mW.”Don

author: wd8dsb
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 12:11:36 pm
content: 13hm13,You also asked elsewhere why the Spectrum Analyzer front end is not protected, and here is a link to a Siglent article that discusses why Spectrum Analyzer front ends are "not protected or only vaguely protected".See section 7 called "Input Protection" in the Siglent article, and here is a link to the Siglent article.https://www.siglenteu.com/application-note/pre-compliance-basics-analyzer-configuration-settings-and-protection/Don

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 01:00:34 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on April 02, 2023, 10:41:40 pmIndeed. Typically I put a 50 Ohm terminator on the inputs of my spectrum / network analysers when they are not in use as they don't like static discharge either.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 02:29:11 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 03, 2023, 01:00:34 pmGood to know that I am not the only one doing that!Also, I have DC Blockers connected permanently, because I tend to analyse CATV and SAT signals and DC is often present. By having the DC Blocker attached always, there is less risk of forgetting something in the heat of the moment.Other than that, I suspect that this thread has been trolled.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 03:34:26 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on April 02, 2023, 10:41:40 pmInput connector on the Rohde & Schwarz flagship FSW spectrum analyzerCoupling can be toggled between AC (default) and DC.Even our entry-level spec an, the FPC, can take up to 50V DC.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 03:58:06 pm
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on April 02, 2023, 04:40:02 amI work for Rohde & Schwarz and one of my specialties was handheld instruments, including our portable spec ans (FSH, FPH) and VNAs (ZVH, ZPH, ZNH). I'm also a hobbyist and ham radio operator (KO4LZ). I can't speak for others, but there are plenty of times a NanoVNA (which I own) or a TinySA (which I will probably buy soon) are handy devices to have around.Example: Just the other day I had an issue using my keyless remote in a parking lot and I suspected RF interference. If I didn't have access to our "professional" portable spectrum analyzers, a TinySA would have been really useful as a quick check for determining if the noise floor was high or if there were any co-channel interference.(I did actually use one of our portable spec ans in the end, but most people probably don't have those sitting around)

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 05:04:54 pm
content: Quote from: 13hm13 on April 02, 2023, 06:28:37 pma serious audio equipment designer will not use NanoVNA, they useKeysight/HP Audio Analyzeror the same caliber. as you simply concluded...Quote from: 13hm13 on April 02, 2023, 04:40:02 amare you and/or your students using NanoVNA just a bunch of enthusiasts? or just another shopping cart addict?i can brag about my pro/semi-pro equipments here (not ee) but i think i dont like to. simply put, being serious alone is not enough for you to afford $$ tools, it needs some guarantee in the workflow (clients and customers) that you can get your investment back. otherwise you are just a luxurious well loaded enthusiast. professional comes from root word profession, i think i dont have to elaborate more for you to get a picture about what it is when you see the word "profession" instead of "professional ".. profession is actually a burden and high pressure you know? if its up to me, i would like just to stay at home playing hobby with cheap smartphone camera and nano/tiny vna/sa, but who's going to feed me and family then? or pay for my little cheap, let alone expensive toys? cheers.

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 08:32:17 pm
content: Quote from: gfSome amplifiers might not like the NanoVNA square wave. The TG signal would be easier to control than just swapping attenuators to NanoVNA.SA with TG can be more convenient because of VNA calibration.

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 09:02:00 pm
content: Quote from: rteodor on April 03, 2023, 08:32:17 pmWe are waiting for someone to combine NanoVNA and TinySA in the same box :-) My Siglent does both...

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 11:42:56 pm
content: Quote from: rteodor on April 03, 2023, 08:32:17 pmtell me any SG/FG that produces clean sine up to 3-6GHz range at around $100 cost, if you can name, i'll get it today... even better if you can name VNA/SA with TG that can produce that clean sine. i'll throw my Nano/LiteVNA/Deepace KC901V into dustbin... i have EraSynth Micro SG that claim clean harmonics or whatever at ~$250, one step ahead from the other hunglow SG, but it still produces square wave that can screw some amplifiers up.

author: regenfreak
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 01:47:28 am
content: I am a big fan of the old TinySA which i own two units. I use it as sig gen and rf sniffer for VHF receiver alignment. I am very tempted by the TinySA Ultra and i can see it selling like hot cakes in Zeenko store. However, i have a Siglent SSA3021X Plus and i cannot justify to spend more money given the fact that I also have four NanoVNAs:NanoVNA V2 Plus 4, NanoVNA V2, NanoVNA H4 and NanoVNA F V2.

author: hugen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 02:58:57 am
content: In the beginning, we put the LNA behind the attenuator so that the attenuator could protect the LNA. Unfortunately we had to change the design due to the large amount of spurious we found during testing. The new design eliminated the spurious, but since the RF switch and LNA were connected directly to the SMA port, it was very susceptible to damage from excessive output signals. Erik has done a lot of design and experimentation, and the current version is the final choice in a trade-off between performance, reliability and cost, and as a test instrument, we prioritized performance. This is why the final version sold has a lower maximum input power than the previous test version.Quote from: switchabl on April 02, 2023, 09:58:14 am

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 08:00:07 am
content: Quote from: MechatrommerSimulating a TG with a second TinySA is just an idea. I'm not holding to it if people around don't find it usefull.But the spectrum of NanoVNA signal and of TinySA LOW output is quite different. Some TinySa Ultra screenshots bellow (sorry, I do not know how to write this BBCode to inline the images):1. 10MHz generated from another TinySA LOW output (sinusoidal)2. 240MHz generated from another TinySA HIGH output (square - I just added this as nice to mention)3. 10MHzwith 20dB attenuationfrom NanoVNA F V2 (no comment)Offtopic: I have also ordered an EraSynth Micro in october but never heard of it from Mouser since then.Era crowdsupply page has all 3 variants as unavailable and last time I checked Mouser has Micro for orders > 100 pcs.Anybody knows what happened with EraInstruments products ? (maybe start another topic if you know details).

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 08:52:14 am
content: A Tracking Generator uses the same swept frequency range as the Spectrum Analyser. By combining both mixers with the syntesized frequency, you make sure that you output at the same frequency you are analysing.Any solution to use two TinySA, one to generate the signal, the other to do the spectrum analysis, will fail, because both will not be syncronized during the sweep. Imagine that one TinySA is still generating a signal at 100MHz, while the other is reading in the signal at 101MHz.The only alternative is to use a noise generator. This will basically produce a random signal, hopefully at a constant signal level, over the required frequency range.This is almost as useful as a tracking generator, as it will allow measuring DUT's like filters.A "poor-man's" alternative is to use one TinySA to sweep the generated signal and keep the other TinySA to show the MAX TRACE. Over a period of time (minutes), you end up to hopefully match a signal and its registration over all frequencies.What an SA+TG does not do, is measuring how the emitted signal is delayed or transformed by the DUT. This requires measurement of the phase of the signal. This is when you use a VNA.Hope this helps.Regards,Vitor

author: gf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 10:07:56 am
content: Quote from: Bicurico on April 04, 2023, 08:52:14 amIf a DUT has a problem with the harmonics of NanoVNA's square wave stimulus, then I guess it may also have a problem with the out-of-span frequency components of a noise source?

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 10:40:31 am
content: I would imagine so, yes.A TG produces harmonics, as well, by the way.Again, a typical application for using a noise source a the TinySA would be to measure the behaviour of a filter. It would allow you to determine the frequencies at which the attenuation happens and by how many dB the signal is attenuated.Another application is for example to determine the distance to a fault in a cable - using the noise source and the spectrum analysator basically as a reflectometer -->https://vma-satellite.blogspot.com/search?q=reflectometer

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 11:54:30 am
content: Quote from: BicuricoSyncing the two Tiny's over USB can be done for sure. It is just a question if it can be done with the current command set or if a new command is needed in firmware.A command or command sequence like a "set_point_measure_and_wait" that would set the SA on an input frequency, measure (and update display), then wait for another command, is all that would be needed from the firmware.Quote from: BicuricoProper timing of the commands would reduce that to a low enough level but it would increase the measurement duration.

author: hwalker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 05:30:33 pm
content: The command set for programming a stepped sweep using two tinySA's is definitely available. The PC control program would have to take care of synchronizing the stepped sweep and graphing the saved frequency/level pair, or export CSV values to a spreadsheet program. A NanoVNA, or similar VNA, is a much better alternative to a stepped sweep.Two stepped sweeps are required, one to establish a reference level and the other with the device under test inserted.The programming exercise is a good way for students to become familiar with test automation.Herb

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 07:19:01 pm
content: http://kv4qb.blogspot.com/2020/12/easy-tracking-generator-for-tinysa.htmlTracking generator tor TinySA. Uses a fixed frequency oscillator (433 MHz) mixed with TinySA's local oscillator output.I have not tried it so no opinion on how well it works.

author: hwalker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2023, 04:55:31 am
content: The reason the designer did not implement a tracking generator on the tinySA Ultra was because:"Unfortunately, leakage is the main problem with incorporating a tracking generator, otherwise adding an LO at IF frequency and one mixer would be enough to create a tracking generator.The LO running at the IF frequency (at least +7dBm) will leak through the shielding and through the two mixers and destroy the dynamic range.Only heavy shielding and added isolation amplifiers would solve this problem. But this does not fit in the form factor or the intended price-point."The quoted passage is from the designer.Herb

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2023, 06:08:10 am
content: Quote from: hwalker on April 05, 2023, 04:55:31 amNo argument with those reasons for not including a tracking generator within the TinySA itself. But a separate unit eases the problems.

author: hwalker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2023, 08:01:53 am
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on April 05, 2023, 06:08:10 amMy only argument about purchasing a second tinySA Ultra for the purpose of implementing a stepped sweep is that the liteVNA64 covers the same frequency range for about the same cost and the two instruments together give you much more measurement capability.Herb

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2023, 10:22:37 am
content: I have tried to achieve that with a different type of device, the "138M-4.4G USB SMA signal source/signal generator/simple spectrum analyzer" (https://www.ebay.de/itm/165015769420). This device only features one ADF4350 instead of two ADF4350/ADF4351 in the NWT4400.As such you can either use it as a signal generator or a spectrum analyzer, but not both simultaneously as a tracking generator.I tried to implement aTG by synchronizing both devices. The result, while functional, is useless due to the much increased sweep time required.Imagine you want to sweep over 500 samples. Instead of launching one command and getting 500 samples, you need to launch 500 individual (!) commands, receive 500 times the single sample, obtained while first setting the signal generator to each of the 500 frequencies. Add a short waiting period for the generated signal to settle.It is just useless.The alternative is, as already mentioned, using a noise source like this:https://www.ebay.de/itm/285099911097Instead of sweeping the signal generator through the selected frequency range, you just generate a noise signal over the whole bandwidth.The possible measurements are in theory the same, you won't be doing phase measurements anyway with a TinySA.The reality is not as bright, though, as the noise source is not so stable, the amplitude varies considerably over the whole specified frequency range, but it is the cheapest and most viable option.Of course, there are better noise generators, but prices increase exponentially with higher specs.Regarding TG, you can only use an external device, if it can be hooked up to the swept frequency signal - some spectrum analysers offer this signal. Doing so by cheating the FW into using individual measurements is, IMHO, not a viable solution.I leave this link for further reading:https://www.ednasia.com/use-a-low-cost-noise-source-as-a-replacement-for-a-tracking-generator/Kind regards,Vitor

author: gf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2023, 11:30:20 am
content: Another point is that frequency must match very well between TX and RX, particularly if a narrow RBW ist used in order to achieve a high dynamic range. At 100MHz signal frequency, 200Hz RBW isonly 2ppm! If we have two Tinys, then the TX and RX frequency synthesizers are not fed from a common XTAL oscillator, but each Tiny has its own clock source, and then their clock frequency agreement matters.

author: DaneLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 08:29:03 pm
content: Curious about these TinySAThe older model 2.8", seems to have been cloned.? both in a sandwich-style casing?, and one with a casing that resamples the org. but as far as I can tell, the TinySA Ultra there still aint any signs of clones on the market on that unit?Im asking as I can see Erik refers to a single store on Aliexpress, while there are like 30 to 40 Aliexpres stores that are selling the TinySA Ultra , so for that Ultra model you can just pick and choose.?

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2023, 12:12:35 am
content: I would only buy from one of the officially appointed stores. See the Wiki.If you buy from a random AliExpress store, you will most probably get a clone.The smaller model has been cloned to almost perfection, including a modified firmware that passes all self-tests. Install an official firmware and it will fail. The clones are not perfect, the filters are wrong.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2023, 01:38:29 am
content: Quote from: DaneLaw on April 23, 2023, 08:29:03 pmI picked up one recently from a eBayer I trust. I got the real thing but it did end up costing me $2.30 more than if I had bought it off the official AliExpress store. I'm still at the sub $20 trust factor with AliExpress, so I don't see that $2.30 as a bad spend to get it from a trusted supplier. However, to answer you question .. I feel the Ultra is far more difficult for the scammers to clone. It may be a while before they do. Just be wary of oddly low prices, or, if you don't have an option like mine, just bite the bullet and buy from the manufacturers AliExpress store.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 11:42:21 pm
content: From Aliexpress I bought from here :https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005011395655.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.29.898a1802IFXq6w.It pass all tests after upgrade to latest versions.

author: horo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2023, 08:22:21 am
content: Quote from: DaneLaw on April 23, 2023, 08:29:03 pmFor you in Denmark, I would recommend the Dutch seller eleshop.eu (also suggested by Erik) - fast and safe, shipping costs are only 9€. I received my tinySA (Basic) within a few days.Martin

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2023, 08:50:09 am
content: Zeenko store is the recomended store from Alexpress by Erik. This is the factory store.They sell with 109 E + 10 E shipping.Eleshop sell with about 190 E + 20E (for Romania) shipping.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2023, 07:15:16 pm
content: Quote from: horo on April 26, 2023, 08:22:21 amI concur.I bought my Ultra , my H4 and my LITE @eleshop.euShipping was just a few days/Bingo

author: DaneLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2023, 03:20:18 pm
content: # 98 / #99Yes, the smaller variant does seem to have been cloned quite a bit with inferior filtering and also some variables in esd chip, but I havent seen signs of clones on the Ultra so far, and Erik also validated that some weeks back, and until now, we havent seen signs of clones on the "ultra".3 names seem to be protruding on the Ultra, "Zeenko", "Hugen" and to some extent also "SeeSii Factory Store"I do recall "Hugen" from numerous years back, they often released variants of the VNA with their name on certain VNA-products.. likely part of the production backland, as sources like Banggood were pushing products under that Hugen-brand and Zeenko seems to front as an org. channel, as some of their accessories, like attenuators etc, seems to have been laser-engraved with the "TinyVNA/SA" label.Overall the TinySa prices on the "Ultra" seem to be quite aligned around the +150US with incl. EU VAT.This one was the cheapest on the Tiny Sa Ultra I could find though there is a few others that seem to be a buck or two cheaper, but also with a lower buyer-store-percentage feedback ratings and down around 84%.if it's a legit seller, I don't know yet' as there is no buyer-feedback on the product as per se' and the store got a 92.6% feedback rating as a whole, though storename dont inspire confidence with just a number.https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005241119145.html?There are like 30 to 40 different stores selling the Ultra, and my guess is that its resellers of the original, - and when getting an order, they holla back at their main original TinySa-Ultra source and make an order on your behalf, and make a minor buck on that flipping act. - but its China, so likely only a matter of time before "clones " of the "TinySA Ultra" will see daylight, and we will see Ultra-models where they skimped on certain aspects to elevate the profit while giving the impression it's the original, - unless there are certain parts on the Ultra, that make that clone-tactic not viable, but I doubt it.

author: DaneLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2023, 03:26:48 pm
content: Thx' for the recommendation of Eleshop.I am familiar with Eleshop, & seems like a good store, - and for some items, it makes very good sense, not least if you don't wanna wait on the slow boat from China and all the hazzle/risk that often comes when using sources like fx Aliexpress, like cheaters, scammers, using fake tracking from other people in your region, from Aliexpress-sellers trying to snatch your purchase amount, while in fact haven't shipped anything and you can't do jack, as the system won't allow you to dispute before certain criteria are meet.. like fx no-movement on the tracking for a certain amount of weeks, you need to wait weeks/months before the system will accept a dispute, so no doubt Aliexpress aint ideal if there are other trustworthy-sources and the price difference aint to massive.- but also quite a difference in price.TinySa Ultra  incl. DK VAT and shipping. = 235.5 USD (213 euro)While Aliexpress (incl. VAT & shipping) igs quite a bit cheaper and from time to time also has sale & coupons, that will subsidize the purchase price to an extent.More or less the same tactic you see fx on eBay - when they offer sitewide or segment specific-codes, that will reduce your price.but no doubt that Eleshop makes very good sense, for peace of mind, & fast shipping, and if you encounter problems, it's inside EU and you dont have to deal with shipping it to China.All those benefits do go a long way, not to mention being able to circumvent all the problems you encounter from time to time when buying from sources like Aliexpress, where it's sadly a luck of a draw the morale of the seller you doing business with.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2023, 07:29:57 pm
content: Quote from: DaneLaw on April 27, 2023, 03:26:48 pmIf buying from AliYou'd want to get it from herehttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004934403303.htmlThat store is the Manuf , according to Erikhttps://tinysa.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Main.BuyingIt seems like there might already be Ultra clones out there , they usually fail the attenuator selftest./Bingo

author: DaneLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2023, 08:37:51 pm
content: Quote from: bingo600 on April 27, 2023, 07:29:57 pmHi Bingo, what are you basing, "it seems" on?As mentioned above.. Erik Kaashoek was not familiar with any signs of "Ultra clones"  a week or two back, so it would be quite useful' if we could conclude that "Ultra clones" are actually hitting the market as of now..would love to hear what you're basing "it seems" on.?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 05:50:30 pm
content: Quote from: baldurn on April 01, 2023, 07:04:09 pmThat's exactly what I initially got my HP spectrum analyzer for, checking the output of homebuilt transmitters for harmonics, and identifying the frequency of RF remotes and other such things. I don't have a TinySA but I've been tempted to pick one up for times when I want something portable, it looks like a cool little instrument.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 05:57:15 pm
content: Quote from: baldurn on April 01, 2023, 10:38:12 amIt's fairly common for a spectrum analyzer to have a 0VDC maximum input, you MUST use a separate DC blocker on these. All spectrum analyzers are fragile compared to an oscilloscope, which are fragile compared to a multimeter. Even a $$$$ professional SA is very easy to damage if you don't know what you're doing.

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 07:09:52 am
content: I don't have a SA or VNA, or any of the accessories for them. So if I buy the TinySA Ultra and also a NanoVNA V2 plus4 from a legit sellers......they should include some terminators and cables. What other accessories, if any, should I get at the same time ?I have a 120MHz SDS2142X AWG (and proper oscilloscopes), but no accessories for that either. So no splitters, or terminators, or proper cables, or BNC stuff in general. If I made some filter on a copper clad board, I'd need BNC connectors to solder on to it just to make test jigs.I'm not into HAM radio or anything seriously high frequency, I'm just a hobbyists that knows I could use these once and a while.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 08:06:01 am
content: To work wit any spectrum analyser, I would recommend owning the following accessories:DC blocker: important when there are chances that the input signal carries a voltage to power an amplifier or similar, very common for CATV and SAT signal cables.Attenuators: lots of them. You need them to attenuate the inputs signal so that it doesn't overload the input stage. Best is a switchable attenuator so that you can start with big attenuation and switch down to suitable attenuation, especially when you don't know what the signal power is.Adapters: all sorts of adapters for different connector typesCables: good onesNote that the accessories can end up costing more than the TinySA itself

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 10:38:35 am
content: Quote from: MathWizard on May 25, 2023, 07:09:52 amQuote from: BicuricoIt is better to stay with one type of connectors as much as possible.SMA DC blocker: Nooelec. cca. 20EURSMA attenuator set (6 pcs: 1/2/?/10/15/20): Nooelec. cca 50EURSMA adapter set (18 pcs., some are SMA-RP): Ylianduo(Amazon) cca. 20EURSMA jack pcb side (5pcs): cca. 7EURSMA terminators 50ohm (5 pcs.): cca. 10EURSMA cables: things can go wild hereSMA port savers: lowest price for just about any manufacturer 16..18EUR/pcs !SMA Nano VNA RF demo kit: cca. 12EURJoy of finding out what's in there (or out there): priceless.Note that not all of the above are needed. But get a DC block, a 20...30dB attenuator, 2..3 cables and a few SMA-F to SMA-F adapters and it's a start.Later edit: the demo kit for NanoVNA is great for experimenting with filters. You would need then also a BNC to SMA adapter.

author: Escalator
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 11:19:33 am
content: How sensitive are attenuators, hence their wattage rating?Many of the SMA ones which are often labeled up to 6GHzhttps://www.nooelec.com/store/attenuator-bundle.htmlwith no added-visual fan-sinks, are usually with a rating at 2Watt.# Is that wattage-rating sustained load that you in theory could use it with fx a 3 to 4-watt walkie-talkie, just as long as its a minor brief few-second test and you have an awareness on it not getting hot, if they rely on their outer casing as a sink?and most of these small sma-attenuators, I guess are bi-directional, so they got no bias on which way they are fitted and you could in theory also daisy chain them for an added -dbm value, just as long as you have an eye on the power, as the first in line is the one, that is gonna eat the majority of the power?

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 11:21:47 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 30, 2023, 05:57:15 pmPlease see my earlier post:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tinysa-ultra-launched/msg4793825/#msg4793825Most modern "professional" spectrum analyzers can safely tolerate a DC input voltage.Quote from: james_s on April 30, 2023, 05:57:15 pmI agree that most multimeters are (or can be) pretty rugged, but there are plenty of "fragile" scopes and "tough" spec ans. I've personally used portable spectrum analyzer and receivers in the field for years -- on rooftops, bouncing around in vehicles, etc. -- and never had one fail. I've also seen spec ans that have suffered hair-curling damage to their chassis and still function properly.Quote from: james_s on April 30, 2023, 05:57:15 pmYepMost spec ans are damaged either by excessive power blowing out the front end or physical damage to the connector. If you make it past the first mixer, you're usually safe

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 11:47:52 am
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on May 25, 2023, 11:21:47 amAside from the (already heated) debate on the SA input, the DC block is also protecting the probed circuit.Just imagine a noob like me, probing at the transistor leg without DC block and directly into the attenuator ...

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 01:52:18 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on May 25, 2023, 11:21:47 am"Fragile" could be interpreted as electrically fragile rather than physically. With this in mind, the DMM, the scope, then SA are probably in the right order wrt to the electrical "hardness". We almost always keep a type N 10dB pad connected to the SA just in case, which requires at least some short time "thinking" when removing and hopefully prevents us from doing something dumbBest

author: erikka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 01:57:56 pm
content: Fragility should always we considered together with aspects such as performance, cost and size.Any design is a balance between these parameters and any choice may be wrong for some users. These users best acknowledge they have different needs and select a device with a difference balance as it is impossible to be optimal on all aspects for all users.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 02:00:09 pm
content: The problem with spectrum analysers is that it is quite easy to do something dumb. While you are still figuring out what is happening, your frontend is already fried.It's not because the SA is "fragile" electrically or physically. It just was made to measure one kind of signal and a different kind of signal can break it. It is that easy.I fried a cheap SMA 35-4400MHz device (similar to the LTDZ, designed by BG7TBL), because I was measuring CATV (no problem) and in the excitement I hooked up a satellite TV signal, forgetting about the 18V used to feed the LNB and select horizontal polarity. A few seconds later, I got only noise: the M810 mixer was dead. In this case it was easy to replace it.Such spontaneous and unplanned decisions is what breaks the device...Now I always have a DC blocker, when the SA is not used I screw in a 50 Ohm terminator and when attaching an unknown device, I start with a huge extrnal attenuator. And of course, before connecting a premium SA, I first connect a cheap one.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 03:22:13 pm
content: Quote from: Bicurico on May 25, 2023, 02:00:09 pmAgree completely: a big attenuator when measuring unknown signals isalwaysa good ideaQuote from: Bicurico on May 25, 2023, 02:00:09 pmAn RF power sensor is also a good choice: wide bandwidth and easy to use. I would much rather explain frying a power sensor than frying a spec an

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 03:45:28 pm
content: Quote from: rteodor on May 25, 2023, 10:38:35 amI like SMB better because it is pluggable and thus quicker to connect / disconnect. For experimental setups, I use SMB. There are also SMA adapters that make an SMA connector pluggable.I've also become wary of the cheaper attenuators and terminators. They may not work up to their advertised frequencies. I don't care so much about cables (unless necessary) but I tend to buy things like adapters, terminators and attenuators from reputable brands & suppliers nowadays.

author: DaneLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 04:54:33 pm
content: I tend to prefer MCX for plugable snap-on RF connectors, SMB often has a tendency to interlock too tight for my test-purpose and can be a pain to split.https://web.archive.org/web/20140503222150/http://rosenberger.de/documents/headquarters_de_en/ba_communication/catalog_coax/04_Chapter_MCX.pdf

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 06:20:45 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 30, 2023, 05:57:15 pmIf anything, I'd expect the high-dollar professional SA to be easier to damage than the less expensive units. In part this is because if you're using a particularly expensive piece of equipment, it's generally going to be presumed that you know what you're doing (if only because as a general rule, such equipment is owned by companies and no sane company is going to let anyone near such equipment unless they've demonstrated that they know what they're doing). But more importantly, the high dollar equipment is so expensive because it tends to be more sensitive, more capable, etc., and that (from what I've seen) generally requires compromises in robustness.Or so it seems to me. I suppose that the additional money could go into beefing up the robustness of the device, but when the price goes into the 10K+ range, it's hard to see what the motivation would be for that (the exception might be units that are intended to go into the field rather than be in a lab environment).

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 01:46:23 pm
content: Besides adding to the cost, effective input protection can degrade the performance of the SA.

author: RAPo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 02:00:38 pm
content: in case of doubt, first test with apowersnitch.

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 02:24:14 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on May 28, 2023, 06:20:45 amYes, and legend has it that these special people never make mistakes either (or so they say). That is why you never see expensive RF test equipment with fried inputs or butchered connectors.More seriously, robustness is definitely still a desirable quality in high-end equipment. If nothing else, working with a special snowflake instrument consumes extra time and mental bandwidth just to make sure you don't break it.It's true that performance requirements may limit your options when it comes to input protection. But then you don't have other constraints on big, expensive lab equipment. For example, the maximum input power on the TinySA is pretty much limited by its low supply voltage. And if a SA has a dedicated baseband path (direct to the ADC) for low frequencies anyway, like most high-end instruments do, then the cut-off frequency in the RF path can be a lot higher and protecting it from DC bias actually becomes easier.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 05:44:35 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on May 28, 2023, 06:20:45 amQuote from: switchabl on May 28, 2023, 02:24:14 pmNo, "special people" also make mistakes - trust meThe two main ways that spec ans get damaged are either (a) too much power applied to the input connector or (b) physical damage from shipping, dropping, liquid spills, etc. In a professional lab environment, users typically are either using power levels that won't damage a modern spec an (+30 dBm or less) and/or are well aware of the need for an attenuator, etc. between the spec an andtheir particulardevice under test.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2023, 08:09:51 am
content: Quote from: switchabl on May 28, 2023, 02:24:14 pmLOL. Well, yeah, but the flip side is that they can at least presume that the probability of mistakes is a lot smaller for the buyers of such equipment than it would be for people who actually don't know what they're doing.Nobody's perfect, everyone makes mistakes, so it's really just a question of whether the effort to put the protection in is worth the probability reduction.Bear in mind that input protection is necessarily limited in its capability, so it just represents a reduction in the probability and not an elimination of it.QuoteThat's true. An interesting question is whether or not you get an average productivity drop as a result. I've found for myself that if I'm more careful, I tend to reduce other mistakes I might otherwise make as well. The fewer the mistakes, the lower the chance that you'll have to go back and figure out what you did wrong, or at least correct what you did wrong. There may be something to be said for forcing yourself to apply extra care.QuoteIf it's relatively easy and inexpensive to design in some input protection without compromising the performance, then it certainly makes all kind of sense to do it. So I suppose that, like for so many other things, the answer here is "it just depends".

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2023, 08:22:38 am
content: Input protection lowers the performance of the device and is not part of the deal.Everybody should know the input rating of the SA and protect it accordingly.If you want to measure a subtle RF signal, you don't want unnecessary input protection raise the noise floor or attenuate the signal.On the other hand, if you want to connect your ham 100W output stage directly to the RF input of your SA, then no input protection will prevent you from destroying the input stage.If you now say, it should be protected up to 100W, what about a user connecting a 1000W signal? What about attaching a 100V DC? The more protection you have on the device, the less attention users will have on what they are doing.A SA is a precision instrument and has to be dealt with as such. The input protection is the user's responsability and that is why they should use DC blockers and attenuators.The lack of further input protection does not make sense in this context.

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 05:46:15 am
content: Ok thanks guys, I'll have a look for the extra accessories before I commit to buying anything. Just watching a video on the do's and dont's for SA's. So they really can't have over a few uW's of power inputted ? The SA in the video says -30 dBmW max, so isn't that 1uW ?So is that just to minimize the loading on the DUT, and be able to work into the GHz ? Or what's the real reason the front-ends of SA and VNA are so easy to blow up?I would be using these for pretty low frequencies, like FM radio circuit experiments. Or much lower, like probing control circuits on a SMPS. Maybe they won't be the right tools for that.

author: erikka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 06:27:26 am
content: There are different reasons for different maximum input levels:Avoiding DamageAvoiding internally generated harmonicsWhen talking about a -30dBm level it is probably about avoiding internally generated harmonics when doing harmonics measurements.The damage level to avoid is probably much higher, staying below 0dBm is safe for all SA's I know.And yes, an SA is not a scope, don't probe an SMPS without a lot of protection

author: gf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 06:40:26 am
content: Quote from: MathWizard on May 30, 2023, 05:46:15 amTinySA spec sais "Absolute maximum input level of +6dBm with 0dB internal attenuation" - thats more than just µW.https://tinysa.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=TinySA4.SpecificationAnyway, think of it as a radio receiver. You also wouldn't feed 100W into the antenna input of a radio and expect no damage, would you?

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 06:59:35 am
content: Imagine this analogy:A sea has rising or lowering water level. You use a multimeter to determine the water level. It can measure a water level of several meters.An oscilloscope will measure the height of the waves - the big waves like the ones on the beach.A spectrum analyser is used to measure the many tiny waves that move on top of the water surface. These waves are just a few mm in height - like when you throw a rock into the pond.To measure these tiny waves on top of the water, you use a very tiny and sensible floater. It is of course very fragile.If a huge wave comes or the sea level rises too much, the fragile floater gets broken.It is difficult to make it less fragile as it becomes less precise the more robust it is build - remember you want it to measure the tiniest water movements on the surface.I hope this analogy makes it clearer.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 09:29:25 am
content: Quote from: erikka on May 30, 2023, 06:27:26 amYes, there is a (often considerable) difference between maximum safe input power level (to avoid damage to the spec an) and the levels at which compression and intermodulation / harmonic distortion occur. I talk about this in my video on dynamic range: (from about 3:50 to about 5:45)

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 09:39:43 am
content: Quote from: MathWizard on May 30, 2023, 05:46:15 amMost modern "professional" spec ans have a +30 dBm (1 watt) max input power, although I've also seen some (especially handhelds) that only go up to +20 dBm.When we released a "high power" option (up to +38dBm) for our SMA100B analog signal generator, we actually included a configurable "output power limit" parameter that defaulted to +30 dBm because this is the normal "maximum" power for most modern spec ans.

author: Messtechniker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 09:51:47 am
content: Can I use the tiny SA Ultra to adjust coax cable tv frequency tilt?One problem is: coax cable tv is a 75 Ohms system whereasthe tiny Ultra SA input impedance is 50 Ohms. So i will need asuitable balun. Any recommendations?

author: horo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 10:28:48 am
content: Quote from: Messtechniker on May 30, 2023, 09:51:47 amSimplest solution is aminimum loss pad (MLP):

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2023, 10:06:53 pm
content: Quote from: Messtechniker on May 30, 2023, 09:51:47 amUse a 75 Ohm 10 dB or more attenuator. The reflected signal will die in the attenuator. The Ultra SA will measure a little less. I am unsure exactly how much, maybe 3 dB? So you could enter the attenuator as 13 dB.

author: ltwin8
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 08:23:01 pm
content: Is there any comparison between LiteVNA64/62 and the new tinySA ultra?Seems the tinySA has the bigger battery and the pen hold for it, but aren’t there firmware updates for the liteVNA enabling peakhold?I would be interested in peak hold for measuring Hobby Videolink and controllinkBest regards

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 08:02:20 am
content: There is no comparison, because these are two different devices!The TinySA is a spectrum analyser, that shows you signals in the frequency domain (an oscillocope will show you the signal in the time domain).The LiteVNA64 (or any other like NanoVNA, etc.) are Vector Network Analysers, used to show you the impedance of a DUT over a frequency range. Most common form of visualization is the Smith chart. This is used for instance for antenna matching, helping you to get the correct impedance for the desired frequency.Think of it like this: the Spectrum Analyzer shows you what signals are present over a given frequency range, while the VNA measures the behaviour of a component or antenna over a given frequency range.You cannot use a VNA as a SA (unless it features both functionality, which the LiteVNA or NanoVNA, doesn't) nor can you use a SA as a VNA (which is not 100% true as you can do some measurements when a Tracking Generator is present or when the SA features VNA functionality - which is not the case with the TinySA).

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 01:58:37 am
content: Quote from: MathWizard on May 30, 2023, 05:46:15 amThe way to use an SA with an external signal source is to put an adjustable attenuator set at maximum attenuation and then watch the SA as you reduce the attenuation and set it give the best performance which will be well below damage level. I have a 60 dB x 1 dB 2 GHz rotary attenuator I use with some 20-50 W fixed attenuators and a DC block to protect my 8560A. I've ordered an ebay Chinese step attenuator and will be investigating its performance very closely.BTW You probe something like an SMPS with an H field probe, not an electrical connection.Reg

author: DaneLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2023, 04:34:44 pm
content: Received my unit today from "shenzhen colourful Store" an Ali express store.Stores like the official "Zeenko" is out of stock on the Ultra (atm) // 13-7 They have stocked up again.!What arrived.Has there been any indication that clones of the Ultra with inferior components' had hit the market yet.?

author: RAPo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2023, 04:46:33 pm
content: Kerry Wong just published a veryon making a tracking generator for the tinySA Ultra Spectrum Analyzer.

author: EC8010
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 09:49:28 am
content: I see there's been a lot of talk about robustness. I bought a TinySA because I don't need an RF spectrum analyser very often so I can't justify something far more expensive. I accept that to achieve the performance it does, some corners have had to be cut, and that's fine by me. In general, you get what you pay for, and in the TinySA, rather more. Bravo!

author: DaneLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 09:12:17 pm
content: The Ultra is quite a step up vs the older TinySA version, but one thing that is a shame is the otherwise great waterfall and it disappears /cycles the moment you do anything..fx you take a running measurement of the RF span, and you pause the sweep to analyze and wanna move the cursor on top, to align with visual indications on the waterfall, I cant.. for some reason it seems to remove the waterfall when you do anything, but maybe its me that does something wrong?- that would also make something a simple as taking a basic screenshot to the incl. MicroSD problematic, as the moment you hit "save-capture" the waterfall cycles to nothing & the screenshot, will be all black, where the waterfall should have been.I am on the fw it arrived with, so maybe is been fixed on later fw updates.?Some wide sweeps. (avg)0 to 12.072G0 to 9.999G0 to 6.2GThe fact that I just purchased mine TinySA Ultra & got it delivered a few days ago, you can bet there will likely come a new better version very soon..As that cycle is as sure as they say "amen" in the church, & me in-a-nutshell to display how close you can cut it - and of course that is also what is happening.A new TinySA Ultra revision is about to reach the market.As far as I can tell, no significant RF enhancements, it's mainly some hardware tweaking to the chip, with a new IPS LCD display, while the older one had TFT LCD.Hardware revisions on the new revision of TinySA Ultra' will go under the labelV0.4.5.1.1from serial numberSU-23070001while the older wasV0.4.5.1My unit SN SU-23060705 & HW V0.4.5.1The Hugen production of IPS variant will ramp up next week, though when it will be in stock.. anybody's guess.Btw these cases works okay to hold the TinySA and TinySA Ultra in lack of better, - atm cost is 1.9 US delivered (incl. 25% VAT & shipping) though only a few left, just remember to get that -1US /+1.01 discount, which will choke the price down to 1.9 US from 2.9 US.)https://aliexpress.com/item/32835458985.html?// the 1.9 US delivered price, gone

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2024, 04:09:09 pm
content: Moving the discussion concerning the output frequency glitches in the signal generator mode from another topic to here.Someone please check if it reproduces with your TinySA Ultra to see if it's not only my unit that has these glitches.Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 25, 2024, 09:33:36 pmNope, same exact thing with 1.4-159.Here's a demonstration with increased persistence (to see the glitches) and the lowest memory length for the max waveform update rate.First, there's a 20 sec-long frequency sweep from 20 MHz to 120 MHz, then (00:30) frequency is changed manually in +100 kHz steps and finally (01:25) amplitude is changed manually.As we can see, on any change in frequency or amplitude it has a brief period during which it outputs all sorts of crap. Frequency sweep output is the easiest way of catching it.It's not the scope: it displays frequency sweeps from a different generator just fine, nice and clean.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2024, 05:27:48 pm
content: Quote from: shapirus on April 26, 2024, 04:09:09 pmI was going to suggest making an Allan variance measurement, and then I looked at the screenshot more closely ....

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2024, 05:54:20 pm
content: Quote from: shapirus on April 26, 2024, 04:09:09 pmGlitches galore:I wonder if this is something they care about or not since it's not the primary function of the device. Cleaner would be nicer though.

author: DaneLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2024, 08:17:09 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 26, 2024, 05:54:20 pmSure, the TinySA & SA4 creator Erik Kaashoeck are very willing to fix bugs.He often push out new firmware with new features & abilities, and it will from time to time, create issues in the back-catalog that then need to be addressed.Been very impressed of the support these TinySA models are getting.Bug fixes etc. forum TinySA & SA4 forumhttps://groups.io/g/tinysa/messagesThe only thing that won't get support for obvious reasons, are issues from clones, and in units that ain't produced by Hugen.The original TinySA-market was flooded with clones with inferior components, the TinySA Ultra has been in the clear for those issues over the last few years, but it has changed here in 2024, where it seems that numerous TinySA Ultra clones are getting to market, so it goes without saying, use official sale-channels if you in the market for one.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2024, 11:15:53 pm
content: I vote @shapirus reports the bug, he found it, I was just confirming it.Here's a clean sweep for comparison with the same setup, but using the SDG2122X:I wish Siglent would have a full frame rate option for the web console.

author: DaneLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2024, 12:52:18 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 26, 2024, 11:15:53 pmThe creator Erik Kaashoeck is a regular user here on EEVblog, and likely quite ajour with this thread.Erik is usererikka(#130).

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2024, 01:01:21 am
content: Quote from: DaneLaw on April 27, 2024, 12:52:18 amEven better! No effort bug reporting. 😉

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2024, 07:04:58 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 26, 2024, 11:15:53 pmNot via google groups, sorry. Not gonna go through the associated setup hassle.But since the author is registered on this forum, let's mention him.@erikka , do you consider this one a bug, a glitch, or a feature? :)

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2024, 01:05:27 am
content: There's an option in the config settings for better accuracy OR cleaner signal. The glitches exist either way.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2024, 02:57:37 am
content: Quote from: shapirus on April 27, 2024, 07:04:58 am

author: erikka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2024, 05:58:50 am
content: The tinySA does not do a continuous sweep but sweeps in discrete steps with possible silence in between. Set the scan speed slow and you will see the step

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2024, 02:59:19 pm
content: Quote from: erikka on April 28, 2024, 05:58:50 amWhat are the random frequencies that appear between steps?

author: erikka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2024, 03:03:47 pm
content: PLL's locking after the stepI do not mute the output as this would slow down the maximum sweep speed and created larger gaps which you will hear as stronger clicks.Any stepwise sweep will always have some form of artifactsCan you explain why these may be a problem?Or is this just curiosity because of what you saw on the DSO?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2024, 03:08:48 pm
content: For me, just curiosity.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2024, 03:16:09 pm
content: More like a cosmetic issue, having all those random waveforms displayed between steps, especially since it's not the primary function of this device.It would be nice if it could be fixed without compromising other functionality, but otherwise no big deal.

author: erikka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2024, 06:54:19 pm
content: Please explain why it should be fixed, except for cosmetic reasons when observing with a DSO?

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2024, 07:07:28 pm
content: Quote from: erikka on April 28, 2024, 06:54:19 pmIt may be important in any practical application where a frequency sweep signal is used and it's expected that the signal won't contain any frequencies outside of those expected at any given time in the sweep range.I'm not sure what those would be, I dont have any examples of my own.

author: erikka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2024, 07:12:18 pm
content: If you need that, you should buy a SG that does a true continuous sweep.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2024, 07:21:58 pm
content: Quote from: erikka on April 28, 2024, 07:12:18 pmI never argued with this. I just said that if it could be fixed without compromising anything, then it would be nice and would benefit everyone. If it's not possible, then it's not really an issue.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2024, 08:48:28 pm
content: Maybe a "clean sweep" option in the settings to make it possible for those that prefer it. For those that might prefer the clean results to the speed of not having it muted between steps.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2024, 10:20:59 am
content: Quote from: erikka on April 28, 2024, 05:58:50 amQuote from: erikka on April 28, 2024, 03:03:47 pmFirst, I think the TinySA is a fantastic project, so thanks very much for doing this!I'm guessing that the "issue" here is that some people may not have realized that the sweep is stepwise: as others have mentioned, a continuous (uninterrupted) frequency sweep is possible on higher end RF signal generators or spec an tracking generators, but these are obviously an entirely different class of instruments at a very different price pointI have to admit that I would have (naively) assumed the sweep was continuous if I hadn't seen this thread.Thanks again!

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2024, 10:32:24 am
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on April 29, 2024, 10:20:59 amYeah that's for sure. Very good value for money: at this low cost you essentially get the functionality, even considering the limitations, that would otherwise require to spend at least an order of magnitude more money.Besides the actual SA, you're getting a useful RF signal generator, so yeah, this is an amazing product. In addition, at least in my particular unit, the 10 MHz calibration output is very accurate: its actual frequency aligns with my GPSDO reference output to within ~0.3 Hz (~30 ppb), so it can also be used as a pretty decent frequency standard. I wouldn't refuse having a way to tune that to exactly 0.0 Hz, though, but oh well :)

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2025, 11:25:50 pm
content: A new Ultra version was released, though I don't see it on the wiki yet:https://www.tinysa.org/wiki/Phase noise -100dBc instead of -92dBc.Thealiexpress storehas:ZS-405 $119ZS-406 $119ZS-407 $169Batteries:ZS-405 3000mAhZS-406 5000mAhZS-407 5000mAhNormal mode:ZS-405 100k-800MHzZS-406 100k-900MHzZS-407 100k-900MHzULTRA mode:ZS-405 800MHz-5.3GHzZS-406 900MHz-5.4GHzZS-407 900MHz-7.3GHz

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 03:42:22 am
content: I recently got a TinySA Ultra for my home lab and was impressed. Then, we got a mid-range Siglent SA at work. Sure, it's got a bunch of fancy features, but it's actually made me more impressed with what the Ultra can do for a lot less $$.

author: DaneLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 07:38:44 pm
content: Yes, it's a cute little deviceHugen. (the official vendor who makes them on Erik's behalf) got an overview on Groups.io on the differences between 405, 406 and 407.https://groups.io/g/tinysa/topic/pre_sale_tinysa_ultra_plus/109845037?