Soldering station that will hold the temperature & it's this FX100 for real ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 04:48:18 pm
content: Dear soldering experts, I would so much love to have a soldering station that holds the temperature when one pad of a part is connected to a nice multilayer ground plane.I've got sick and tired that each time I solder something that needs a bit of heat my old soldering station just isn't able to deliver the needed heat. So I end up pumping the temp, which exfoliate the pads and burns the tip, and the junk still dies if I have to solder a connector shield to the ground plane.I tried to do all the tricks to improve the heat transfer, nothing helped too much, POS is POS and I'm done with itI was trying to look at some induction ones that I've read they have a much better heat delivery and control and I've seen the prices in Germany and cringed hard.So browsing fleabay I've stumbled over thesehttps://www.ebay.de/itm/Hakko-FX100-04-RF-Induction-Heat-ESD-Soldering-Station-w-FREE-TIP-/332432519151Is there any chance to be if not original, at least of the reasonable quality ?The price, tax and delivery time at the above mentioned is acceptable, but if there is a chance for an EU based one it's soo much better.I don't need a micro-tip or something special, just a 2.5mm chisel and 1mm cone should be enough for me.The budget is 300-350 EUR top.Many thanks for your help and suggestions, DC1MC

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2017, 06:39:30 pm
content: Yup, I own the Hakko FX-100. All in all, it's really good.Basically the Hakko FX-100 is a improved version of the Metcal/Thermaltronics. I've used a Metcal before and the Hakko blows it out of the water with features and ergonomics. The Metcal/Thermaltronics handpieces are utter garbage compared to the FX-1001 that the FX-100 station comes with. Plus you get to use Hakko tips which are cheaper and longer lasting than the Metcal ones.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2017, 06:54:27 pm
content: Don't bother with inductive heating. Get ERSA I-CON1 or JBC station. Also, for multilayer boards with a lot of copper, preheater is a great help.https://www.ersa-shop.com/ersa-icon1-profil%C3%B6tstation-itool-150w-autostandby-p-2224.html

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2017, 09:29:08 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 25, 2017, 06:54:27 pmThe ERSA that you've posted sounds very nice, and 150W it should be OK, I'm not soldering wave guides ( yet), and 150W sounds cool, but is it capable of pumping those watts when needed, I really hatewhen the soldering tip becomes stuck like a uhmmm, let's say, a motorcycle in the mud.I have exactly zero experience with induction soldering tools, but I've heard that they are particularly good at keeping the tip at temperature when soldering over dissipative surfaces.How much of this is hype and marketing, I want to find form the nice forum members that have experience with both systems.So far I have on my short list- Hakko 100- Thermaltronics 2000S- ERSA i-CON1Noe the selection is big enough to get at least two of them, but maybe you can convince me to reduce it to one only.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2017, 09:53:39 pm
content: Yes ERSA it can pump those watts and is more versatile and powerful than another 2 stations you mentioned. With any station you'll need a large enough tip to use that power.

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2017, 10:01:34 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 25, 2017, 09:53:39 pmOK then ERSA experts cam, what's the actual technical difference between ERSA i-CON1 and ERSA i-CON1Vin regard with features, performance, consumables and accessories ?Or what would YOU buy from these:https://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=ERSA+i-CON1&_sacat=0and why the same model is somethems listed at 150W and sometimes at 80W ?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2017, 10:09:56 pm
content: There is no difference if you'll be using it with soldering iron only. i-CON1V supports different tools like desoldering tool, SMT pincete, other soldering irons. 150W is peak power which is delivered when there is a need for high heat output, like when you touch the solder joint. 80W is maximum average power.

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2017, 10:19:02 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 25, 2017, 10:09:56 pmOK, nice to know and thanks for the info, what will be a nice chisel 2.5mm tip, a bit more massive, could you recommend such tips for ERSA ?

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2017, 10:23:24 pm
content: Ehh I'd still recommend the induction heat technology if you want power. 80 watts of induction heat tech is nowhere as powerful as 80 watts resistive heating technology(ex ERSA, Hakko, Weller). Watts aren't the whole picture. With induction heat, you get a really good temperature control loop as it relies on physics not the lag between the thermocoupler and controller.

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2017, 10:37:17 pm
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 25, 2017, 10:23:24 pmI'm actually really curious how ERSA does a low latency feedback, is the temperature sensor very close to the tip or are any predictive algorithms, because on more massive tips, the latency increases.AFAIK; with the induction tools, the controller pumps full power and when the temperature is there the tip stops absorbing, and on the very cool high-end stations there is also a temp sensor but just for optimizing the power and adjusting the temperature for values under the Curie point, am I correct ?

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2017, 11:11:33 pm
content: Quote from: DC1MC on December 25, 2017, 10:37:17 pmTake a look at this video for information on how Metcal heating technology works..There is no thermocouple in induction heat irons so you get rid of all that prediction/overshoot that comes with resistive heating technology

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2017, 11:27:05 pm
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 25, 2017, 11:11:33 pmNot all. There are stations with inductive heating but are temperature controlled. Not like Metcal witch curie point cartridges.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2017, 11:53:14 pm
content: I might be stating the obvious but if you need different temperatures, with Currie technology you will need separate tips for every shape and temperature..There is no temperature setting on controller... It gets expensive quickly....

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 12:09:36 am
content: I have a Weller WS81, 2 Metcal MFR, a Pace MBT-250.The weller is great, lots of power, cheap original tips that last a long time (in 8 years I still use the same tips) I use it most for smd with a gullwing tip. And I think within your budget.The Metcal power is almost magic, but the quality sucks as hard as their warranty and lack of service. The handpiece is dangerous, the wire just outside the handpiece gets over 100 degrees C. A known fault but they do nothing about it if you have the bad luck the thing is just over a year old (and already replaced before). The desoldergun tips last only a few months. I do not use them any more. I keep them just for reserve. I use them professional for repairs. The pump wears very fast.The Pace is over 20 years old. All parts are still for sale. The pump is after all those years still in better condition as both Metcals (3 worn membranes in 1 year). Tips last a long time, lots of power, A bit slow in warming up but I do not care, it is on most of the day. It is my most used station.I have a simple 15 and 18W Ersa iron. They do a remarkable good job with so little power but no experience with Ersa stations. Most people seams to like them.JBC must be one of the best but I have that only from hearing that from their owners. I wanted to buy one a while back but desided to upgrade my Pace with a new SX-100 instead of the old SX-70 and I do not regret that (I do a whole lot of desoldering, )But all three do what you want. Every non-Chinese clone station will do what you want.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 12:16:34 am
content: Quote from: PA4TIM on December 26, 2017, 12:09:36 amWS81 does not come even close in performance compared to I-CON. ERSA tips are more durable and Weller seem to have huge issues with tip reliability in recent years, especially those made in Mexico. Some tips are so bad that dissolve in solder in a few days.

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 12:26:19 am
content: I had a look at the Pace, nice profi station, but kind of an US only thing and way over my budget. Even the few used units, when fitted with handles and tips are too much.In Germany I just found this on fleabay and did a double-take, pretty hefty for a bunch of tips, but hey, professional quality:https://www.ebay.de/itm/Pace/252774906578So as much as I like it, I can't afford it and I don't have that level of work, I'll still have to choose between those 3 candidates, Thermaltronics, Hakko and ERSA for my 2018 station, even if I have a feeling that in the end I'll get an induction and non-induction one, I hope that the info gotten from the forum will help me to chose which one will be the first.But thanks for the tips and experience with the other induction station.

author: Magnum
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 01:06:05 am
content: I can recommend the Ersa I-Con. If you need only one channel and don't want to use the newer V-Tools, go with the I-Con1. Tweezers and desoldering gun are available, but they are not as good as the newer V-tools. You can get it from Ersa in Germany for EUR 325,- (www.ersa-shop.com).If you want dual channel you can get the I-Con2V for EUR 448,-. I'd recommend two channels, you can buy a second iron (or other tools) later and don't have to change the tools (or tips) anymore. The two channel station has the same maximum power as the single channel, so you won't get more heat if you use two irons at the same time.Even better is the I-Con Vario 2, you can use the 250 watts iron with that station. It has a hot air gun, too, but runs for EUR 975,-Edit: You can adjust the response characteristic of the heater element in the settings on all I-Con stations: Slow with no temperature overshoot, medium with small overshoot and fast with a higher overshoot.

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 01:07:06 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 26, 2017, 12:16:34 amThe power thing could be the case but I can solder everything I want with the Weller. If it is really "heat-sucking" I replace the gullwing with a wider chissel tip. For instance soldering thing to a chassis (f.i. tube equipment ) I have not worn a single tip of my Weller in all those years but I have the switching handpiece holder. But if I'm working on a board with smd I place it in a non switching stand. I replaced the tip tube holder last year (a 5 euro part)But like I said, you hear good things about ErsaI am not friendly for my tips. I wore the expensive Metcal hoof tips in a few months.I do not know why so many non-Weller users always rant about Weller. The people I know who have one are all satisfied. It was less as 300 euro, bought around 6 different tips for it, and it still works great, 5 euro costs in 8 yearsThe Gullwing tip I bought 2 or 3 years ago and is since then the tip I use for almost everything. Still looks like new. BUT I do not use lead-free solder. I only use multicore solderI think a lot of people buy fake parts from ebay/amazon/ali etc and then blame the brands. I buy my solderstuff only from Farnell and Mouser. Pace tips are around 10 euro a piece. But the base unit is indeed expensive. However a complete new handpiece is not expensive. Farnell sells Pace

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 01:24:01 am
content: I also have WD1 for years.. Bought bunch of tips, still have them all..But, also, it is original, trough proper sales channel. But even if the tips didn't last long who cares.. LT series tips are few € each. Not 20-30-60€.. 2-3-4 €...It doesn't feel underpowered, on large meaty boards you want preheating anyways.....I find it appalling that people think it's ok to give 600 € for 5-6 tips.. Even if they are long lasting.One station that is very economical is Hakko FX-888, 70W.. Batterfly has them for 100€ for a station, and tips are 5-6-7€.These are not inductive or integrated heater type. Just old fashioned heater puls tip, but in good, japanese quality.Of course, we are talking about soldering stations for electronics.. It is not for large soldering jobs.

author: sn4k3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 02:26:26 am
content: +1 for ERSA i-con, i can recommend all the way. Both station and iron are exccelent and tips are cheap but also very good, thermals are very good too. You can't go wrong with this. If you can go ERSA I-CON 2v and if price justify for you, that way you can get a second i-tool or other tool like chip-tool vario.JBC there are some people with problem with the tips, it seens they get waste very fast and if not proper care they die quickly. Also tips are lot more expensive then ERSA, otherwise they have more tips shapes that can be usefull for some.For me ERSA (i-tool) wins easy

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 08:53:32 am
content: Quote from: sn4k3 on December 26, 2017, 02:26:26 amOlá Serpente, while we are here could you recommend a set of tips for it that you consider useful, I'm considering to take the V version with dual tool capability, would a desoldering tool for it need extra air, or it will be selfcontained, also, any idea about the price of a good desoldering attachment for it ?Many thanks, DC1MC

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 11:02:02 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 25, 2017, 10:09:56 pmThat is not 100% correct.The current generation i-CON 1 only supports the i-Tool soldering iron.The i-CON 1V supports all Ersa irons, like the Power Tool, Tech Tool, Chip Tool etc.For soldering jobs that require dealing with large thermal masses I do not use the i-Tool, but the Power Tool with a bigger tip. You could also configure the i-Tool to the high heat setting, but I can not say if it is as convenient as working with the bigger "thermal buffer" of the Power Tool (does not heat up as quick though and is an analog iron).The first generation i-CON 1 (simply labeled i-CON on the front) stations are basically what is now called 1V and you can use all current tools on them. Shame on Ersa for going the route of firmware castration like so many companies today.

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 11:17:02 am
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on December 26, 2017, 11:02:02 amHold on a second, so you're saying that the first generation of i-Con that looks like the attached picture has a better tool support than the latest one, because I've found an acceptable priced one in the region and can go and get it, kindly please check the attached picture.Many thanks, DC1MC

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 11:48:51 am
content: No, that is one of the first i-CON 1 labeled units. Before that it was just labeled i-CON.The one in the attached picture does have the 1V funcionality, though new tools to come from Ersa in the future might not work on this. The 1V comes with an SD-card slot for firmware upgrades.

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 11:51:57 am
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on December 26, 2017, 11:48:51 amDamn, so there are at least two models of i-COM1, because the current ones in the shop are looking different, prolly with even more restrictions and "genuine parts only" DRM addedMany thanks for checking it for me, at least now I know what to search.DC1MC

author: Magnum
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 12:29:21 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on December 26, 2017, 11:02:02 amAre you sure about that?IMHO the power tool only works with the I-Con Vario (https://www.ersa-shop.com/ersa-lötkolben-itool-highpower-250w-p-13162.html). The Vario station can deliver up to 250 watts max, the non Vario only 150 watts max.And I think you can only use the "old" tools with the "non V" I-Con 1 like the X-toolhttps://www.ersa-shop.com/ersa-entlötkolben-xtool-p-2746.html. The chip toolhttps://www.ersa-shop.com/ersa-entlötpinzette-chip-tool-p-3033.html needs two channels (I-Con 2 or I-Con 2V or I-Con Vario).The I-Con 2 is not available anymore, they only sell the I-Con2V. Makes sense, as both stations were around EUR 450,- and no one bought the old one.Edit: Seems I was wrong, the X-tool needs two channels, too. So best is to go with the I-Con 2V, then you can plug in all tools.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 12:31:08 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on December 26, 2017, 11:02:02 amNo, what I said is 100% correct (I did not mention discontinued product) but what you said is not 100% correct. Old I-CON is not the same as I-CON 1V at all, it does not support vario tools. Also there is old I-CON 2 (can use 2 tools simultaneously) and supports different tools and is still produced but is not the same as I-CON 2Vwhich also supports vario tools.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 12:39:17 pm
content: Quote from: Magnum on December 26, 2017, 12:29:21 pmThis is not power tool but i-tool high power. Power tool is a legacy product which is much worse than regular i-tool. It was introduced way before any I-CON stations were released.http://www.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/tools-for-soldering-stations/produkt-details/power-tool-1.html

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 12:39:57 pm
content: So the seller asks for the older i-con1 that I've posted at the end of page 1 for 190EUR as starting price, should I offer 150 or how much you guys think that will be an OK price ?

author: Magnum
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 12:44:45 pm
content: Quote from: DC1MC on December 26, 2017, 08:53:32 amYou need a vacuum station. It costs around EUR 400,- from Ersa:https://www.ersa-shop.com/ersa-vakuumstation-p-2802.html

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 12:46:33 pm
content: Quote from: Magnum on December 26, 2017, 12:44:45 pmThanks, now it's out of budget, but maybe sometimes else

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 12:48:26 pm
content: Quote from: DC1MC on December 26, 2017, 11:51:57 amThey are different products, not 2 models of the same. They are electrically different, not just firmware. There is no DRM but there never were any compatible parts either. X-tool, power tool... need analog sensing of temperature. i-tool has internal PCB which has ADC and motion sensor and also stores temperature calibration within itself, communicates with station in digital. I-CON 1 is digital communication only.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 12:53:28 pm
content: Sorry @the OP for capturing your thread, but this issue needs some clarification I guess.All I-CONs labeled I-CON 1 - no matter the colors of the print etc. ONLY support the i-Tool. You can not use other irons as the Power Tool (...) on it.Old I-CON 1 models without the number (just labeled I-CON) support these tools: i-Tool, Tech Tool, X-Tool, Power Tool, Micro Tool, Chip Tool.You are right @wraper, I forgot about the Vario Tools (and Air Tool of course) - these are not mentioned in the parameters UI so I guess they will not work. The old I-CON device is the one I own (seethis thread for more information on fixing Error 8 on I-CON stations).

author: Magnum
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 12:58:46 pm
content: Quote from: DC1MC on December 26, 2017, 12:46:33 pmThere is a cheaper way: Buy a chinese desoldering gun, e.g.https://www.ebay.de/itm/Regelbare-digitale-Entlotstation-ZD-915ESD-Entlotkolben-Entlotpumpe/152558501480?hash=item238531fe68:g:9zAAAOSwNSxVI7xCThrow away the gun, put in a 0.7 bar pressure switch and you can use the station as vacuum source. I had this station before I bought the Ersa. It even delivered a bit more vacuum than the Ersa.

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 10:57:53 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on December 26, 2017, 12:53:28 pmThere is absolute no need to apologize, this thread is gold, the marketing a-holes are making super-human effort to obfuscate matter in an attempt to make buy more.Somebody that explains and organize this stuff is invaluable, now that we have a bit of clarity on the ERSA front, could you or someone to recommended some of the most useful tips, for my old Hakko I took a pair of full sets but ended using just a pair.So post the favorite soldering tips of yoursDC1MC

author: sn4k3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 11:19:15 pm
content: Quote from: DC1MC on December 26, 2017, 08:53:32 amStock tip is already very usefull and is what i use most of the time.They are cheap, you can stock many depending on your use.My recommendations are:0.3mm optimized conical tip for microsoldering1mm conical tip (only if you like and found it usefull - common works)1.6mm chissel tip (Default tip included with station - Very usefull - common works)a bigger chissel tip for big thermals and sizesK tip for wick and othersOval tip maybe 2mm or 4mm for wick and othersOne drag solder tipWith that set you can do almost everythingMy set is:1 0102PDLF03 ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, straight, pencil tip, 0.3mm (heat optimized)1 0102PDLF04 ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, straight, pencil tip, 0.4mm [I don't Recommend]1 0102PDLF05L ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, straight, pencil tip, 0.5mm (Long) [I don't Recommend]1 0102PDLF10 ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, straight, pencil tip, 1mm1 0102SDLF08L ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, bent, pencil tip, 0.8mm (Long)1 0102CDLF04 ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, straight, chisel-shaped, 0.4 mm [I don't Recommend]1 0102CDLF12 ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, straight, chisel-shaped, 1.2 mm1 0102CDLF16 ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, straight, chisel-shaped, 1.6 mm (Stock)1 0102CDLF20 ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, straight, chisel-shaped, 2.0mm1 0102CDLF24 ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, straight, chisel-shaped, 2.4mm1 0102CDLF32 ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, straight, chisel-shaped, 3.2mm1 0102CDLF50 ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, straight, chisel-shaped, 5mm1 0102CDLF100C ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, conical, chisel-shaped, 10mm1 0102SDLF18 ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, bent, chisel-shaped, 1.8mm1 0102ADLF20 ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, straight, oval, 2 mm1 0102ADLF40 ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, straight, oval, 4 mm1 0102WDLF16 ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, straight, PowerWell with hollow flute, 1.6 mm1 0102WDLF23 ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, straight, PowerWell with hollow flute, 2.3 mm1 0102WDLF35 ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, straight, PowerWell with hollow flute, 3.5 mm1 0102BDLF20 ERSA ERSADUR Soldering tip for i-Tool, straight, PLCC knife, Blade, 2 mmFor a cheap desoldering see: ZD-8915

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 11:20:49 pm
content: Tips are dependent on what you do. Also most common tips as chisel are also the cheapest ones. Specialty tips like solder well for drag soldering, PLCC blade or huge 10mm chisel are way more expensive.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 12:21:11 am
content: Ersa offers a great selection of tips as well, and they're not expensive.Something easy to overlook, but is just as important as the station itself IME.Hakko's FX-100 is rather new, so has a much smaller number of available tips ATM.FWIW, I'm fond of the tinned face only bevel/hoof shape in a few sizes (I favor these over chisels, which I have), a dedicated drag tip (hoof will do this too), and bent conical (great for passive SMD and pulling bridges).

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 12:37:01 am
content: I do admit as a Hakko FX-100 owner, the tip selection isn't as wide as JBC/ERSA/Metcal. But do you really need those tips? A chisel/bevel and a thin conical is all you need for 99% of the time. Sure you can say that using *insert Brand here* gives you the biggest dick with your 420 tips but let's be honest, you are really gonna use only 3-4...

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 04:00:30 am
content: ^ If you entertain the idea of doing any kind of production soldering, then it could matter. If a given tip is 12% better at doing 1 specific thing than any of your other 3-4 routine tips, it can add up over hundreds or thousands of repetitions.

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 07:12:01 am
content: In my Pace I have 99% of the time a big gullwing (hollow hoof) tip. They are very universal. In my Weller 99% of the time a 3mm gullwing. I use the other tips only if I need them. I mainly do repair work and that can be on a big high voltage generator with big through hole parts but also a piece of RF testgear with smd and multilayer boards or something industrial with a conformal coating. I can not tell my customers I destroyed their pcb because I was to cheap to buy the right tips or (de)(solder gear. And for me that are something like 5 to 6 tips per iron for soldering and 8 for desoldering. Good desoldering with only 1 or 2 tips is impossible in my case. The component/pad, type pcb and space dictates the tip size and type.QuoteMaybe for you. I have almost never use a chisel, and if so, it is a big 5mm one or a very small 1mm. I never use straight conical tips they suck, but for smd I sometimes use a bend 0,1mm conical J type.Buy the tips you need for the work you do (may it be hobby and/or professional) . Original tips for the "classic" type of irons like my Pace or Weller are cheap (5 to 10 euro) and last a long time. The cartridge types like Metcal or JBC can be very expensive (like 20-40 euro)

author: sstepane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 08:33:40 am
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 27, 2017, 12:37:01 amI think it is a bit different in this case. FX-100 is mid-range iron, for hobby while discussed ERSA iCon or JBC is more professional types, so it is enough for FX-100 to have the selection of tips way less than for ERSA or JBC.As an owner of JBC station I'd say it is very nice, handy and helpful in any respect to be able to choose any kind of tip for that particular work so it will be done in best possible way with comfort and confidence. If you can afford it or care enough to pay for it.p.s. even though I'm more a hobby player - no way I will ever return to any soldering station but JBC (might consider ERSA though).

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 09:25:15 am
content: Hello everybody and lots of thanks for your very informative and interesting posts regarding the pro-summer soldering equipment, I've learned a lot, because of seldom having to solder and some kind of a talent to not screw it up, even with a somehow bad tool, I've neglected to stay current with my soldering gear. This will be corrected soon, thanks to your mentoring.While I will get most likely in the close future an I-CON (probably 1 or 1v, because the original I-CONs seem to be rarer than the proverbial hen's teeth) I was looking on the anemic selection of used I-CON on Germany's fleabay and found these:https://www.ebay.de/itm/Lotstation-ERSA-I-CON-PICO-2-Stuck-DJ24D/122829899292It could be that out of 2, I may make one usable, what's your opinion and how much should I offer for them ? I didn't hear too much about this PICO things, are they worth having ?Cheers, DC1MC

author: sstepane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 09:35:33 am
content: Quote from: DC1MC on December 27, 2017, 09:25:15 amCheck out youtube for nano/pico/icon comparison - there are couple videos comparing these in terms of power/heating capabilities. Also there are some videos comparing ersa/jbc to other irons. Sometimes very informative and "eye opening".

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 09:38:52 am
content: Don’t bother with the Pico stations. The Nano is 175€ new e.g. here:Ersa Shop. The Pico is even cheaper. The Picos might be worth considering if the asking price for both defective (sic!) units was something like 50€.

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 09:54:04 am
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on December 27, 2017, 09:38:52 amOK thanks, I've send an offer of 48, total shoot in the dark, I wasn't declined right away.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 10:25:17 am
content: Pico is not ESD safe and uses different heater. Nano has the same heater as normal I-CON but power is lower as heater is powered by 16.5V, not 24V as normal I-CON.

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 10:27:00 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 27, 2017, 10:25:17 amAh that's good to know AND the seller declined, so all is well...

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 08:24:24 pm
content: Good thatwrapermentioned the ESD issue between the Ersa Pico and Nano.It may not matter in terms of making a decent joint (power difference not withstanding), it can prevent damaging components before ever powering them up.Not much to speak of in terms of cost either, so even if it ends up being useless to you, it's still something you should be sure you get IMHO.For disclosure, I've currently a Weller WD1 with a pair of irons (WSP80 + WMD) and a Stop-n-Go stand to get the full step back features. The power unit is grounded, as are both irons. FWIW, the Pico's heating element is enclosed in plastic, hence why it's not grounded vs. the Nano, which is metal.Might not seem like a big deal, but better to have it than not IMHO (I do have a proper ESD mat and wear an ESD wrist strap. Also note that ESD anything is useless if you're not connected to safety earth/ground (i.e ESD tools such as cutters, pliers, screwdrivers, ...).

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 08:31:45 pm
content: Well, to understand how bad is the situation here, after the seller declined my nice 48EUR offer, someone got them with 100EUR(fleabay sent me a message). Wonder if it was someone from hereOn the other side I've found this Ersa Digital 2000A for ca. 220EUR, with two tools (please see the picture), it seem the it doesn't accept the i-CON tools, is it worth having ?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 08:49:21 pm
content: Don't bother with Digital 2000A, you'd be far better with I-CON nano. Digital 2000A make sense only if you want to use it with old chip tool or old X-tool which I don't find being that good. Buying 2 faulty pico for 40% of a brand new price is not a good deal. If heater or iron turns out to be faulty, it will almost double the cost. And if you manage to fix only one of them, then you could just buy a brand new.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 08:55:49 pm
content: wraper, if I may ask, what are you running for a soldering station these days (sorry, I'm rather forgetful in my old age)?I ask, as you're quite the expert on Ersa.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 09:01:40 pm
content: I have 2x of I-CON 2, 2x i-tools in constant use + old x-tool. I don't need tweezers that much because I can solder with 2 irons simultaneously holding them in both hands. Although chip tool would be easier to use, I don't need to do this often. I prefer to use hot air when possible (no heat sensitive parts nearby), anyway.

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 09:27:56 pm
content: Don't get the ERSA if you want to quickly swap tips without a hassle. IIRC, they still use that godawful screw in mechanism that is prone to breakage. You can keep your 420 tips while I'll keep my easy hot swaps.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 10:11:08 pm
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 27, 2017, 09:27:56 pmIf you mean i-tool, it's nonsense. And if you want to swap hot tips, you can also buy additional tip holders for around EUR 3 piece.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 09:08:11 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 27, 2017, 09:01:40 pmAbsolutely brilliant.FWIW, Ersa's not that common in the US as of yet, but they're definitely making inroads in the initial/rework stations here (started with the big stuff/top-end soldering equipment from what I'm familiar with).Hand/rework equipment is an after-market here at this point as I see it these days, but it really seems like excellent gear IMHO (thinking it's better than Weller's gear these days).FWIW, great soldering/desoldering gear is always welcome IMHO.Based on YT videos, they've absolutely brilliant gear. From hand to their most advanced rework gear is really nice from what I'm seeing. :- Fortunately, I don't need such top-end gear in regard to soldering gear. My stuff is is decent in regard to soldering equipment (Weller WD1 + a couple of irons for it, as well as a Stop-n-Go stand), As well as my Quick 861DW.Both bits of gear are absolutely brilliant for my needs, so I'm fine with using desolder braid/wick

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 04:55:09 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 27, 2017, 10:11:08 pmSeems like a pain in the ass to me...https://youtu.be/GbD2pV2qQbM?t=264

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 04:57:04 pm
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 29, 2017, 04:55:09 pmIt was done 10x slower than it normally takes.

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 05:00:28 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 29, 2017, 04:57:04 pmBut either way, the unscrewing and rescrewing on still happens, correct? This is why I sold off my Hakko 888D: the agony of unscrewing and screwing everything just to change one tip.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 05:04:59 pm
content: Extra tip retainers make really quick work of it (i.e. just as fast as a cartridge tip). And they have the benefit of being inexpensive vs. cartridge tips as well.

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 05:22:07 pm
content: Tip retainers aren't free are they? Factoring in both a tip and tip retainer on Newark costs around $15 USD.A T15 cartridge from Hakko costs $10.47 USD. And you can change tips almost instantly.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 05:30:36 pm
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 29, 2017, 05:22:07 pmAfter time spent changing temperature on hakko a few times, time required to change tips shouldn't matter anymore. And at least in EU, common tip type + holder is less than that.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 05:48:38 pm
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 29, 2017, 05:22:07 pmNo, but they're not expensive either. ~$8 for the Weller tip retainers for my WSP80 and just a few will do.It'd be the equivalent of buying a few additional collars for your most used tips to change them out a bit quicker (and with fewer burnt fingers).

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 11:25:38 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 29, 2017, 05:30:36 pmChanging temperatures? That happens very rarely... 99% of the time I use one temperature.Do you own a Hakko? Changing the temperature isn't too bad. It's just that people don't read manuals.Quote from: nanofrog on December 29, 2017, 05:48:38 pmI just tend to stay away from soldering stations that still do the antiquated metal slug over ceramic heater. You will never get the performance the Hakko FX-951, Metcal-style stations, JBCs, or any cartridge system can put out.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 12:18:17 am
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 29, 2017, 11:25:38 pmOne issue with that, ERSA I-CON outperforms your Hakko FX-951. Has smaller size and twice the power. And it not doesn't have ceramic heater.QuoteBecause UI sucks so much that you avoid to touch it.

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 12:24:23 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 30, 2017, 12:18:17 amWhat I meant by ceramic heater is that it uses a seperate heater (ie. not integrated into tip). Also evidence that the ERSA outperforms the FX-951?I'm sure that you own both the Hakko and ERSA and have done comprehensive tests. Please post your results so you can back up your claim.If you need to change temperature every five seconds, it's not the iron, it's you.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 12:27:04 am
content: C’mon guys, no need to start a religious war over soldering iron brands

author: sn4k3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 12:31:38 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 30, 2017, 12:18:17 amQuoteI think everybody use a fixed temperature setting most of the time, depending on job, tip, thermals etc.Sometimes adjusting is required, for example solder a large mosfet, change tip to a finner one, lead free not leaded, etc.We will not change temperature that much, and fixed temperatures per tip will work just fine but for me i like to be in control and change temperature whatever i need or want, is always a plusThe only thing i miss in ERSA stations are easy to trigger profiles, like 3 physical buttons... On manual say we can set fixed temperatures with profiles, but my 2v lacks that setting

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 12:33:23 am
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 30, 2017, 12:24:23 am2x faster heat up time.

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 12:36:41 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 30, 2017, 12:33:23 amI seriously doubt that. Did you do timed tests with comparable tips? FX-951 will get to temp in less than 10 seconds.Quote from: sn4k3 on December 30, 2017, 12:31:38 amYup I agree. I never denied that I never ever changed temperature. Once in a blue moon, I do need to change temperature on a exotic application. But other than that, most people will never need to change temperature. The Hakko FX-951 can change temperatures no problem.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 12:42:32 am
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 30, 2017, 12:36:41 amAccording to that I can see on youtube, it's around 15 seconds for FX-951 to get from cold to 350oC.Ersa has 9 seconds spec but in reality it's around 7 seconds.

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 12:51:36 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 30, 2017, 12:42:32 amStart up time depends on what tip and what handle (i.e. micro and large). Smaller thermal tips will definitely get to temp in less than 10.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 01:48:14 am
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 29, 2017, 11:25:38 pmAlthough I do like the technology involved in the cartridge tip systems (efficiency), I'd have to call BS on this claim.The reason being it's possible to make up the performance gap by pouring more power into the heating element in a worst case situation. And keep in mind, the TC/NTP,... or whichever feedback tech they chose, the distances these days are quite small between the different technologies. There'd be a difference in over-shoot, but really, if it makes a proper joint without BBQ'ing the components or PCB's, what does it really matter?Seriously, if I step back as it were, personal preferences seem to make more of a deciding factor in station selection, as the performance differences at stations of this level is rather small.And inexpensive plated slugs certainly have their place in regard to TCO (one of the primary reasons I went with the Weller kit rather than Hakko (FM-102?) or JBC's gear (really fond of this stuff from a technical standpoint).FWIW, the FX-951 wasn't available when I was in the market; it's one heck of a bargain here in the US. I settled on a WD1 + WMP iron however (WD1001 at the time), then added a stop-n-go stand + WSP80 iron.Does what everything I need of it. Of course, I've also a hot air station and hot air preheater in order to stay out of trouble on PCB's that are a massive heat sink. And from what I've seen on YT videos, I think the Ersa performs better than the Weller kit I own.But I'd take any of these tier 1 brands, especially if it's not coming out of my pocket.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 01:59:56 am
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 30, 2017, 12:24:23 amI'd have to agree with this.But there are boards that have so many layers/huge power or ground planes, that supplemental heat is necessary regardless of the station being used (i.e. preheater).Quote from: wraper on December 30, 2017, 12:42:32 amNitpicking though IMHO, as we're talking about very minor performance differences at this point.I mean the Ersa's likely over-shooting to get that kind of speed, but it still makes a fine joint. As do JBC, Weller, Hakko, and whatever other decent tier 1 brands you can name.I mean we're talking about absolutely top shelf equipment here.And if it wasn't up to the task, it would vanish from the market due to it's substandard performance.

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 02:20:27 am
content: @nanofrog. Great posts. I agree with many of your points. Regarding overshoot since the thermocouple is further away from the tip, I would also like to add that temperature regulation would be not as good for metal slug type stations compared to cartridges.Sure let's say ERSA reaches temperature faster, but is the temperature at the tip truly what the display claims or just the heater that's at the temperature? I wonder what the difference is? Would be interested to know with some thermocouple tests.On a side note, picked up a brand new JBC for very cheap so I'm excited to run some tests to see what's all this hype about

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 11:00:08 am
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 30, 2017, 02:20:27 amI'm not so sure that the newer cartridge based stations are really all that different from the latest traditional stations in terms of distance between the TC/NTP, ... and the actual tip are all that different (i.e. no hole through the middle of the tip to accommodate the temp sensor to get it closer to the latest non-cartridge designs). I say this as a good bit of over-shoot can heat a tip to set temp in one heck of a hurry, so I don't really see this as a necessity.FWIW, my Weller WSP80's sensor is at the absolute end of the heating element, which typically puts it ~ say no more than 10mm from the absolute end of the tip generally speaking. Is it perfect? Definitely not. But it does do what I really need, which is what's truely important IME.And based on a friend and forum member,GreyWoolfe, the performance of his Hakko FX-951 and Metcal are rather close to my stuff (Weller WD1 , WSP80, and WMP irons). All of them make great joints, and in quite an acceptable time.I don't think a fraction of a second is really all that important. That said however, there's really no way to account for personal preference IMHO (i.e. some irons will feel beyond wonderful in one's paws, whilst another might feel more like the end of a broom handle).As always, YMMV. But we're talking about tier 1 stations, not crapolla firesticks.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 12:36:02 pm
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 30, 2017, 02:20:27 amAgain, you are posting without knowing a thing. Thermocouple is not further from the tip.EDIT: and there is basically no gap between heater and the tip. Heater diameter is 3.53mm, tip internal diameter is the same 3.53 mm as I'm able to measure with my very precise Mitutoyo caliper but in reality is likely around 0.01-0.02 mm more because I measure round surface from inside. It's a very tight fit.

author: Magnum
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 01:48:17 pm
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 30, 2017, 02:20:27 amYou can select three different profiles of heat up time versus temperature overshoot. With a slow heat up time you have no overshoot.I measured my tip temperature some time ago: It is spot on. On some tools you can enter the tip part number in the settings, so the station knows how to heat it up and corrects for possible temperature errors. The Ersa stations work and do what they should do.

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 03:26:57 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 30, 2017, 12:36:02 pmI would say the same to you. This is what I meant by further...Same picture you posted.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 03:42:01 pm
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 30, 2017, 03:26:57 pmBefore writing this, you should research where thermocouple is located in cartridge tips

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 04:13:14 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 30, 2017, 03:49:28 pm

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 04:20:58 pm
content: Mind to tell what it is? I don't recognize nor JBC, nor Hakko. It even does not look as cartridge.And this is irrelevant, there is no temperature sensor to begin with. Only working principle shown, no actual distance which you can estimate.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 04:27:14 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 30, 2017, 04:20:58 pmTineye.com says it comes fromthis page.Indeed, Curie-point systems do not use temperature sensors but there may be some feedback based on the profile of RF energy absorption

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 04:30:24 pm
content: OK, I found what it is. Non cartridge crap station from a company which produces shameless hakko knockoffs. And thermocouple is not a tad closer to the tip.Page 3:http://www.harshatech.in/download/kingsom-catalog-new.pdfQuoteBut look at page 4:Quote

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 04:41:40 pm
content: Quote from: helius on December 30, 2017, 04:27:14 pmIt doesn't come from there, there is a little difference in the pic. Quick 203 is inductive heating station but it does not use curie point, it has temperature sensor. Seems that kingsom have stolen the picture from quick and modified it a bit.

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 04:42:22 pm
content: Technically, the actual tip is the "temperature sensor" for induction based systems. Regulation is near perfect, all thanks to the Curie point and Skin effect.wraper and I were discussing cartridges in general...Can you take measurements from the heater/sensor to the very tip with your ERSA?Even according to your JBC picture, it still seems closer to the tip than ERSA

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 04:53:20 pm
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 30, 2017, 04:42:22 pmIn standby it is within 1-2oC as I measured earlier. It's not closer in JBC, it's around the same. In ersa distance is around 6-10mm for most of the tips (tip point to thermocouple). Larger tips have lower distance. 10mm shown on the first pic is exactly where thermocouple is located.

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 05:07:57 pm
content: We can go on all day wraper about all this Also you never addressed Metcal-style cartridge induction heatingBut seriously, let's say for the sake of the argument, the distance between JBC/Hakko and ERSA is the same. Thermally, they are not the same distance equally. While the sensor is buried in the cartridge itself in JBC/Hakko, the tip of sensor in ERSA is flapping around in air.Quote from: Magnum on December 30, 2017, 01:48:17 pmI would like to see how long the slowest option takes from room temp. With Hakko, there is very little oversoot.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 05:09:44 pm
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 30, 2017, 05:07:57 pmYet once again. It's not flapping in the air, it's tightly pressed against the tip as you tighten the nut.

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 05:12:13 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 30, 2017, 05:09:44 pmLook at the green dot. Again I repeat again, "the tip of the sensor is flapping in the air". I'm not talking about the sides of the heater that press on the sides of the tip.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 05:13:54 pm
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 30, 2017, 05:07:57 pmWhy should I if we compare JBC and Hakko cartridge tips with Ersa? I haven't tried metcal but as I've read, it lacks versatility. Good for production, not so good for anything other.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 05:17:51 pm
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 30, 2017, 05:12:13 pmLook on he heater construction again. Heater is not flapping in the tip like in Hakko 888D, tip is screwed onto the heater itself. With force concentrating on exposed thermocouple.

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 05:23:24 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 30, 2017, 05:13:54 pmQuote from: wraper on December 30, 2017, 05:17:51 pmUhh nice strawman. We were talking about the temperature sensor not the heater. Nice try though.Quote from: wraper on December 30, 2017, 05:17:51 pmExactly.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 05:29:21 pm
content: Someone who is showing own incompetence and failing to understand construction shown on the pic is talking about strawman. Yes, there is exposed thermocouple on the end of the heater. And it is tightly pressed against the center of the tip. This is how tip mounting works.

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 05:31:52 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 30, 2017, 05:29:21 pmYes thank you. You just proved my point. All pictures you posted show the space between the sensor and the very end of the ERSA tip. This is nothing more than a fancy Hakko FX-888D...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 05:34:18 pm
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 30, 2017, 05:31:52 pmThere is zero space. Because tip center is pressed against thermocouple on one end and tightened by the nut on the other end.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 05:35:39 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 30, 2017, 12:36:02 pmMy apologies, as it seems there's some confusion (definitely not trying to take the piss here).The heating element for either my WSP80 or WMP are small diameter (I think the WSP80 is ~5.00mm at most, and the WMP is ~3 - 3.5mm or so). Nor are they particularly long (say ~ 40mm or so based on the discoloration from the heat). Not the most scientific means of measurement, but's likely sufficient IMHO.Both iron designs have the tip butt up to the heating element rather than fitting over it, such as Hakko's designs (tips have a flat surface where they contact the element). At ~10mm or so for tip length on avg., they're rather close/short between the business end and the heating element. Ultimately, they do a rather decent job of it, so I'm quite pleased overall.FWIW, I suspect Ersa's 102 series tips aren't much different dimensionally speaking, despite the fact the iTool iron is capable of 150W as needed. In terms of mass, I wouldn't expect a lot of difference either; say10g or so.The longest tips I own are my LTL (2.0mm chisel, with a good bit of mass), and bent conical (LT1LX for the WSP80/NT1X for the WMP) @ 14 - 15mm give or take. Even then, are likely no more than 15g or so (I can weigh them if you wish, as I've a suitable scale). FWIW, they're quite small. Seriously, I'm not trying to be a contrarian/dick, as this stuff truly interests me (I'm quite fond of top quality tools, and they vary of course due to one's geographic locale).All this said, somehow I suspect Ersa's 102 series aren't all that different (i.e. focused on feedback loop rather lots of mass). Say 20g or less?Generally speaking, it's a balance between thermal mass and the power response of the iron IME (my previous Weller was a Magnatstat, so the tips had a good bit more mass to them). FWIW, it seems the latest designs have opted for less copper and fast feedback loops based on what I've been able to tell from photos. I mean hell, the Ersa tips appear huge, but in comparison to what? The Kuala Lumpour towers? All kidding aside, they appear to be no more than ~15mm or so (or pls. let me know if I'm off on this).At any rate, it appears to be another fast-feedback system as I see it. Ultimately however, it's irrelevant; they're damn fine stations.In regard to further posts:Pls. keep in mind copper's one heck of a thermal conductor. So, maybe a couple of microseconds at worst?

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 05:38:09 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 30, 2017, 05:34:18 pmThe picture from ERSA proves you wrong.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 05:41:24 pm
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 30, 2017, 05:38:09 pmMaybe you have a third eye buy I wonder how do you see any gap there.

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 05:46:12 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 30, 2017, 05:41:24 pmSince the sensor is flat, there is that tiny triangular gap of air.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 05:48:48 pm
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 30, 2017, 05:46:12 pmThere is no triangular gapIf you see it in the pic, then you have issues with understanding cross section pictures.

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 05:53:29 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 30, 2017, 05:48:48 pmEdit: Since you might need some help, here's a clearer picture...

author: Magnum
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 06:00:09 pm
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 30, 2017, 05:46:12 pmWell, I have several Ersa i-Tools here. I checked them all, and found no gap between the temperature sensor and the tip. The bottom of the hole in the tip is flat.Maybe it is better to believe someone who has one in hand instead of looking at simplified pictures from the web.Checked the time to heat up with low energy setting: approx. 3-4 secs longer, no overshoot

author: lmaokore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 06:02:24 pm
content: Quote from: Magnum on December 30, 2017, 06:00:09 pmCould you post pictures? I will be more than happy to change my mind when shown contrary evidence.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 06:03:21 pm
content: Quote from: lmaokore on December 30, 2017, 05:53:29 pmPlease stop, you are making fool of yourself. This exactly shows how you fail understanding cross section pictures.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 06:08:30 pm
content: Best I managed to take, it's flat.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 06:12:57 pm
content: FWIW, Weller's newer designs have a conical end to the heating element in order to get the sensor that much closer to the business end of the tip. Not sure how well it works in practice, but the theory seems sound to me.The WXP120 would be one example.

author: Magnum
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 06:59:28 pm
content: The distance between the sensor and the tip end is not as important as the fit between the sensor and the tip. As the sensor is pressed against the tip, you get the lowest thermal resistance with the Ersa i-Tool. It also important how high the thermal flow between the sensor and the tip is. The equation for the temperature difference is:Delta T = R * Q where Q is the thermal flow and R the thermal resistance. To calculate the thermal resistance you need the coefficient of thermal conductivity. For copper it is around 350 W/(mm*K), for air 0,026 W/(mm*K). Thermal paste is around 4-70 W/(mm*K).The equation for the thermal resistance is: R=l/(lambda * A) where l is the length, A is the Area and lambda is the coefficient of thermal conductivity.So if the distance between the sensor and the tip is bit higher or lower won't matter if the thermal conductivity between the tip and sensor is not perfect.IMHO Ersa is also doing a software compensation, as you can select different probe part numbers in the settings for some tools.But this whole discussion is quite academic. The Ersa tools work great. And I think other brands do as well.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 09:26:36 pm
content: Quote from: Magnum on December 30, 2017, 06:59:28 pmIndeed.The discussion is entirely about tier 1 stations, and the performance differences are rather minor. Personal comfort/ergonomics are likely more important at this level. Tip costs tend to rank highly as well IME.Ersa, JBC, Hakko, Metcal, ... would all make me a happy solder jockey.

author: sn4k3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2017, 12:13:09 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 30, 2017, 06:08:30 pmYes, more images from i-tips10mm tip (Used only once):0.3mm tip heat optimized (used many times):0.3mm seens not perfect flat with some layer depression at middle and a hole

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2017, 12:17:24 am
content: I'm wondering if putting a bit of thermal putty will improve the thermal contact?

author: Magnum
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2017, 01:15:15 am
content: Quote from: DC1MC on December 31, 2017, 12:17:24 amIt is not necessary. The i-Tool works great.If the station makes a internal compensation it might even be a bad idea to do that.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2017, 11:29:41 am
content: Quote from: DC1MC on December 31, 2017, 12:17:24 amMy guess is, that would be first and last time you attached the tip because you'll be unable to remove the tip once it burns and solidifies.

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2017, 12:03:57 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 31, 2017, 11:29:41 amHi-temperature thermal grease ?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2017, 12:42:38 pm
content: Anti-seize greaseis good for 861C.But I wouldn't recommend it (iron's not designed for it).

author: Magnum
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2017, 01:02:05 pm
content: I'd first ask how exact you want the temperature measurement. Then I'd calculate the approx. measurement error as it is without thermal grease. I think it will be within your limits.

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2018, 08:56:42 pm
content: The thermal grease that I suggested it's not for temperature measurement, but for better heat transfer and reducing the latency and over/undeshot of the the control loop.In somehow related news:Is a Pace ST45 with PS80 tool and a bunch of tips worth having for 70EUR ?

author: sn4k3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2018, 09:43:04 pm
content: the i-tool performs very well and it's designed to be like that, so theres no need to try to improve what is already very good... Doing so will cause underperformance overtime and maybe some parts will need to be replaced.Other than that you also can solder heat element to tip to have the best performance