Budget ($150-$400) scope recommendations? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: kissel
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 01:00:54 am
content: First off, electronics is just a hobby of mine, and a relatively new one. Once or twice before I've run into situations where a scope would be nice, but I've never needed one (nor have I ever used one). However, my largest and most recent project involves some fast DC switching and I need a scope to figure out why my ICs keep blowing up.I've been doing some research on scopes, and it gets overwhelming FAST with how many different options there are. Since I have never used a scope, I have no idea what I will actually reasonably need in terms of specs. I believe in spending the money to get quality tools that will last a lifetime, but I don't know whether I'll spend enough time doing advanced electronics projects over my life where I can drop even $400 on an oscilloscope and feel good about it. I can't see myself using a scope more than 50x over the course of my life.I'mdefinitelya believer in buying older well-made tools secondhand, but going down that rabbit hole has only confused me more. This would probably be my preferred route, but people really seem to bemoan older scopes not having features such as USB. I was hoping I could get your thoughts on a few options I've found repeatedly advocated. Feel free to comment on these or make your own recommendations.$150: Agilent 54622AThe CRT is wicked cool, it's cheap, people seem to say these old Agilent machines are very well built. On the downside, it doesn't seem $150 is a great price. It also only has two channels, and people seem to find this limiting.$200: Hantek DSO2C10It's cheap and modern, but people seem to hate the interface and say it's buggy. Plus, still just two channels.$414: Instek GDS-1054BI saw this recommended a fair bit. Not really sure what's special about it other than that it has four channels. 50MHz is notably lower than the rest, and I really don't know if the price is worth it for me.$420: Rigol DS1054ZThis gets TONS of recommendations because a firmware flash can give it 100MHz bandwidth and some other fancy features. It also has four channels. Again, price is a bit steep for me.I think I'm really leaning toward something used as I could always resell it down the road if I found myself losing interest in the hobby or if I wanted to upgrade.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 01:30:50 am
content: Quote from: kissel on July 08, 2022, 01:00:54 amUsage and budget are quite relevant datapoints to make your decision, which would be greatly helpful if you could develop this further: do you work with analog electronics (amplifiers, radios, small electronics such as dimmers. Timers, etc?) If so, probably a two channel oscilloscope will be more than enough, which becomes especially attractive with the incredibly capable high bandwidth oscilloscopes such as the SDS1202X-E or the DS1202Z-E for around $300.If, however, you are using digital circuits, a two channel oscilloscope is still very useful but a four channel can bring much more flexibiliy, especially when you factor digital decoding of serial busses. Both the Instek GDS1054B and the Siglent SDS1104X-E use a very similar underlying platform that obfuscates the model from Rigol - the Instek is much cheaper than the Siglent, which is another advantage of it (although I think it has some limitations in the serial decoding).The used route is also an option, especially the 54600 series of HP oscilloscopes which are a joy to use. However, this exposes you to a much higher probability of failure, where you will usually need another oscilloscope to repair your original one.All in all, good luck with your purchase!

author: kissel
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 01:54:10 am
content: Thanks! It is hard to anticipate my usage, but I expect to primarily be working with digital circuits. However, I don't expect to work with any high-speed buses; for example, I am working on reverse-engineering some digital comms over my car's diagnostic link, but it's slow enough that I can even use an Arduino.If I were okay with the chance of failure, would you say $150 is worth it for the 54622A?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 02:02:54 am
content: If you're not using it much then 2 channels could be enough. 2 channels can do anything that 4 channels can do, it just wastes time and isn't as easy/convenient when you're trying to look at 3 or 4 signals.Rigol, Siglent, etc. make 2-channel versions of their 'scopes. That would save you a bit of money.Quote from: kissel on July 08, 2022, 01:00:54 amYou can resell new things, too. The Rigol would be really easy to resell and will keep it's value well.The Instek is better than the Rigol in every way except bandwidth. 50MHz may not be a limitation that affects you in practice.But... we don't know what types of things you'll be using it for.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 02:07:15 am
content: Quote from: kissel on July 08, 2022, 01:54:10 am50Mhz is plenty for "Arduino". If you're going to ARM/STM type chips then 100Mhz may not be enough.4 channels is a must-have for "digital".Quote from: kissel on July 08, 2022, 01:54:10 amGive what you said above? No, I wouldn't get something with 2 channels and small memory. It will be extremely limiting on what you can do with it compared to a modern DSO. The 200MSamples/sec. is also much too low for a 100Mhz oscilloscope.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 02:44:48 am
content: Quote from: kissel on July 08, 2022, 01:00:54 amWelcome to the forum.IMO you're missing 3 worthy contenders, 2ch 200 MHz SDS1202X-E, 4ch 100 MHz SDS1104X-U are both sub $400 and the better featured but dearer SDS1104X-E that is a scope that will require some real 'behind the wheel' time before you outgrow it.With your budget, skill level and expressed needs I'd have no reservation on recommending a SDS1104X-U as you could well require 4 channels to properly diagnose your troublesome circuit.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 02:48:57 am
content: Quote from: kissel on July 08, 2022, 01:54:10 amSince you are interested in looking at digital busses, an oscilloscope with deeper memory greatly helps inspecting longer streams of data. As Fungus mentioned, this is a significant limitation of the 54622Awhen compared to more modern offers. However, by using your brains and decoding the serial protocols in pencil and paper you can do a lot with it - of course that was our only alternative in the 1990s, where we had to devise a number of smart ways to debug all sorts of parallel and serial fast lane busses and these oscilloscopes were rulers of the land (I think it was a 54600).If you are still inclined for the 54622A, you can always buy a cheap Saleae USB logic analyzer clone - it will run circles around any oscilloscope decoder as it uses the PC for data storage.Also, a relevant thread about the 54622A:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-54622a-ebay-score-anything-to-be-awarewary-of/

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 02:53:17 am
content: Instek also does a 2-channel, 100Mhz version:https://www.tequipment.net/Instek/GDS-1102B/Digital-Oscilloscopes/It would be under $300 with Tequipment's EEVBLOG discount code.(search the forums for it)IMHO a $150 54622A looks like a terrible deal compared to that.

author: mag_therm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 02:56:08 pm
content: I have a query about the Instek 1000B range mantioned by Fungus. The 200 MHz 2 channel version could be good for my use.I only have limux here. I wonder if anyone is using a linux socket client for Instek ?(eg, I have ncat on the computers.)I am only interested in downloading, not operating the scope from computer.I read some of the eev thread about hacking these scopes, but not wanting to do that.Is it likely that an updated range of 1000B will be released soon, maybe with a web server?Thanks

author: tunk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 03:17:47 pm
content: As an alternative to the Hantek DSO2C10, maybe this $170(most likely) redesigned/rebadged version of the Owon SDS1102:https://www.amazon.com/Oscilloscope-Channels-Sampling-Kiprim-DS1202/dp/B098LBV339

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 03:39:21 pm
content: Quote from: mag_therm on July 08, 2022, 02:56:08 pmIt uses SCPI (ASCII commands sent over an IP connection, eg. telnet) so it's easy to knock together script files to download data, screenshots, etc.The programming manual is linked onthat tequipment page(where it says "Manuals/Guides") along with a lot of other software and resources.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 03:40:39 pm
content: Quote from: mag_therm on July 08, 2022, 02:56:08 pmI don't think hacking gets you much on these 'scopes any more. All the software options are now included as standard and the bandwidth is fixed in hardware.Quote from: mag_therm on July 08, 2022, 02:56:08 pmThose sort of things are usually very secret so as not to affect sales.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 03:50:38 pm
content: Quote from: mag_therm on July 08, 2022, 02:56:08 pmI don't see why the socket interface won't work. Probably even easier to get going on Linux than Windows. Typically I copy & paste some Python together to read data from test equipment (pyvisa with the native visa driver). Works very well under Linux.You can also mount a Samba share and let the GDS 1000B write data in there directly over the network. Been there, done that with the higher end model from GW Instek. Also note that the network transfer speed of GW Instek scopes is quite high compared to the competition.

author: mag_therm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 03:53:13 pm
content: Fungus, Nico,Thanks for that info.The scope is certainly good value for me. Looks like comms won't be impediment.I have 2 vintage scopes and old SA. I like using them and they do the job but getting the data into the archives is a pain.Also last week I was doing some measurements that really needed another channel or 2.

author: kissel
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 05:31:46 pm
content: Thank you all for your suggestions! The SDS1104X-U seems like a great option. I am tempted by the price of the GDS-1102B ($100 less than the SDS1104X-U), but I notice it's quite a bit larger than the 1104. For something I hope to keep for life, taking up less space is definitely a plus (not to mention the additional channels). I don't think I can justify the price of the SDS1104X-E, and I think I'd get more use from the 1104's extra channels compared to the extra bandwidth of the SDS1202X-E for a similar price. Though I yearn for the green CRT display, I do agree that the 54622A doesn't make much sense compared to these newer options.One more question: With my lack of experience, it makes me a little nervous to think of spending $400ish on a scope. How robust/repairable are they? In other words, what are the odds that in the process of learning how to use a scope I accidentally cause expensive or irreparable damage?

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 06:01:22 pm
content: Quote from: kissel on July 08, 2022, 05:31:46 pmDon't worry. You'll hardly be able to damage a Siglent DSO with its 400Vp tolerant inputs, unless you directly feed it with the output of a powerful transmitter.You could make dangerous ground connections to mains powered circuit nodes that aren't actually at ground level (better don't do it!), but even that would more likely give yourself an unpleasant electric shock and/or fry the probe rather than the scope.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 07:21:56 pm
content: Quote from: kissel on July 08, 2022, 05:31:46 pmKeep your probe on 10x mode and you should be OK. 400V inputs in 10x mode is 4000V.1x mode is for special use cases anyway, 99.9% of the time you want to be in 10x mode.If you clip the ground lead onto something you shouldn't then you might melt the lead but the scope will be OK - the BNC goes direct to earth.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 07:36:43 pm
content: I think it's worth mentioning that typical 1M scope inputs are only 1M || 15pF at lowish frequencies. The Rp resistance tends to reduce quite markedly once up into the RF region.Therefore the safe voltage level gradually gets derated with increasing frequency.A typical modern scope might begin to derate the voltage limits at about 100kHz. Some of the more expensive scopes might begin to derate above 4MHz and usually the voltage level gets derated by 6dB (factor of 2) every doubling in frequency above this knee point. Somewhere around 30MHz this then levels out at about 12-20V peak all the way up to the bandwidth limit of the scope.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 07:38:41 pm
content: Quote from: Performa01 on July 08, 2022, 06:01:22 pmThis is true for any general purpose benchtop oscilloscope! They all survive connecting a 1:1 probe to mains voltages.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 07:41:26 pm
content: Also a typical x10 scope probe also has to be derated against increasing AC frequency in a similar way. The input of a x10 scope probe is only 10M || 12pF at low frequencies. Generally speaking, a typical x10 scope probe might only be rated to 25V peak once up into VHF.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2022, 12:13:00 pm
content: Yeah, don't expect to put in a 400V, 100MHz signal like that other guy did.The 400V rating is at mains AC frequencies.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2022, 08:10:32 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 08, 2022, 07:38:41 pmRight, that's most likely true. Since I neither know the specs of all the bottom of the barrel budget scopes out there, nor can be bothered to look them all up, I did not want to make a general statement but rather stick to what I know for sure.Especially since the OP seems to be particularly interested in the Siglent SDS1104X-U.Apart from that, folks looking for a cheap solution might also stumble across an USB-instrument, which will usually tolerate only 100 V or even less at its inputs.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2022, 09:20:56 am
content: Quote from: Performa01 on July 10, 2022, 08:10:32 amThat way you make it sound like a Siglent commercial -especially considering you have some kind of ongoing interest / relation with Siglent-.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2022, 07:53:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 08, 2022, 07:38:41 pmScope 20X times more expensive than SDS1104X-E, the Keysight 3000T series, proudly carriesMAX 135V RMSon its front panel, next to inputs... That is a bit less than 200V peak, AC+DC..So it might be true for many (or maybe most, I don't know, same as Performa I didn't make a thorough research) but it surely is not given to be true foreveryscope, even expensive ones from brand A manufacturer.If that is important, it should be verified before purchase...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2022, 08:09:41 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 10, 2022, 09:20:56 amCan´t see it in his post.Me for example I could tell about the inputs of the rigol 1054, 5000 and the three siglent models I´ve had/actually have, others I don´t know/would have to speculate.That doesn´t make me a person who have commercial interests.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2022, 08:26:02 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on July 10, 2022, 07:53:43 pmIn that price range you are no longer in the general purpose category! It is not about price but about purpose. Above the toy scopes and below the special purpose scopes, I have not seen any bench oscilloscope that can't handle ball park 300V on the inputs. And that makes sense because these are the kind of scopes that end up in the hands of field technicians and students as well who are likely to make a mistake and hook a probe directly to mains.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2022, 08:31:18 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 10, 2022, 08:26:02 pmDoes that even matter when it can't connect to universal mains voltage in 1x mode.......oh that's right, the world don't even exist for some brands beyond US shores.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2022, 08:51:48 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 10, 2022, 08:26:02 pmKeysight 3000T are as general purpose as they make them... They are on more expensive side but they are nothing but good general purpose scopes. Nothing specialized about them.Listen, I agree that most scopes are going to be able to handle 300V peak and not explode in microsecond.I just pointed out that generalizingallof themabsolutely willis not true.. And you used that generalization to basically attack Performa he is wrong and biased.We are all biased, but he is not wrong...Not ALL general purpose scopes will survive 240VAC directly to input.Most will though. But not all.

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 02:55:06 am
content: Some of them will some of them won’t. We need joesmith move into oscilloscopes. Then we’ll learn how robust our oscilloscopes are

author: adam4521
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 10:17:42 am
content: I appreciate test equipment having good protection, but I think we should be really careful with spec contest on input voltage. The Siglent affordable scopes (like all the lower cost oscilloscopes), ship with 1x/10x probes that have 300V peak-peak rating in 1x mode --> that's 106V rms and none of the system is CAT rated! It is not much help if the oscilloscope survives but the probe that the unsuspecting hobbyist is using is fizzing and shorting in their bare hand!I can't think of any scenario where it is appropriate to deliberately probe 1:1 near mains voltages. One of the first things I bought was differential probes!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 10:21:00 am
content: Quote from: adam4521 on July 11, 2022, 10:17:42 amFixing a power supply?

author: adam4521
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 11:07:35 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 11, 2022, 10:21:00 amExactly the sort of thing I would be very cautious of. If it is a SMPS it will have high frequencies, and high harmonics, too!

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 11:22:40 am
content: QuoteAbsolutely.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 03:37:59 pm
content: Quote from: adam4521 on July 11, 2022, 10:17:42 amThe important things first: Nobody here advocates probing a mains powered circuit with an oscilloscope as long as you don't absolutely know what you're doing. This includes to use appropriate probes and avoid the ones that can be switched to x1 mode.The cheapest Probe (the one that will ship with a Siglent SDS1104X-U) is the PP510. It is rated300 Vrms CAT IIin x10 mode and150 Vrms CAT IIin x1 mode.Since the scope cannot show more than 80 Vpp on the screen at its lowest sensitivity of 10 V/div anyway, a x1 probe is not helpful and its accidental use should become obvious quite quickly.BTW, there are single ended probes specifically for mains, like the PB925, a x10 probe with 250 MHz bandwidth, that is 600 V CAT III and 1000 V CAT II rated.EDIT: of course in most of today's use cases for mains voltage probing, a differential probe will be required!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 03:59:49 pm
content: Quote from: Performa01 on July 11, 2022, 03:37:59 pmWhat if you're looking at power supply ripple? You need a x1 probe for that.

author: adam4521
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 05:13:32 pm
content: My earlier post relied on the datasheet linked at Batronix here (highest Google hit for me):https://www.batronix.com/files/Siglent/Zubehoer/SPL1016/SIGLENT_Probe_Datasheet.pdfBut confused by Performa01 post, I find that the Siglent.EU one is different:https://www.siglenteu.com//wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2022/04/Probe_DataSheet-E01A.pdfIt would be good if this was on the main Siglent website, couldn't find!*Edit*, got it now:https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/user/siglent_probe_datasheet201908.pdf

author: kissel
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 05:14:02 pm
content: Thanks again to everyone for the help! Just pulled the trigger on a SDS1104X-U. With EDU pricing and the EEVblog code, $417 out the door. Super excited for it to get here. Does anyone have any recommended resources to learn the ropes of using an oscilloscope? Stuff like "don't probe mains voltage" that might seem blatantly obvious to those in the know. Most of my electrical knowledge is self-taught so I want to avoid the trap of not knowing what I don't know.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 05:46:15 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 11, 2022, 03:59:49 pmYou really think so?This needs not always be true for a low noise oscilloscope like the SDS1104X-U.x1 Probes have limited bandwidth of usually less than 10 MHz. Industry standard bandwidth for noise and ripple measurements on supply lines is 20 MHz, so a x1 probe won’t cut it anyway.We usually measure noise and ripple at the output of a PSU, not at the mains side.Apart from all that: if a probe is only rated for 150 Vrms, then we cannot professionally use it at mains voltages in most parts of the world and we need to find some alternative solution. Full stop.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 05:51:26 pm
content: Quote from: Performa01 on July 11, 2022, 05:46:15 pmI'm told so.Quote from: Performa01 on July 11, 2022, 05:46:15 pmYou're poking around something that has live mains AC inside it...

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 06:00:22 pm
content: Quote from: adam4521 on July 11, 2022, 05:13:32 pmYeah, sorry. That long obsolete datasheet linked by Batronix is from January 2019 (not indicated in the document) and I think it is not correct anyway. Who the hell specifies a maximum voltage as Vpp instead of Vp or Vrms?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 06:06:04 pm
content: QuoteQuoteHmmm...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 07:24:28 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 11, 2022, 06:06:04 pmJust pointing out that there's plenty of deathtrap power supplies out there, don't assume everything is ideal.(Go watch Big Clive for a while if you don't believe me)Bottom line: Learn to be careful, don't poke around at random. There's no substitute for knowing what you're doing.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 08:44:00 pm
content: Hi,I´m testing ac/dc power supplies up to 140kW for nearly 20yrs.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 09:42:01 pm
content: Anyway: The advice stands. Leave your probes in 10x mode and you should be OK.Some people actually glue three of the four probes in the 10x position. That's good sense.Micsig only supplies 10x probes with their 'scopes, they say the eliminating the switch allows them provide higher quality probes. I'm OK with that.Fixed 10x probes are really hard to buy for some reason.Micsig sell theirsbut there's no others that I can find from Aliexpress or other cheap places.Fixed 100x probes, OTOH, are quite easy to find (example). If you'rereallygoing to probe mains AC then it seems like a good idea to get some.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 10:02:59 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 11, 2022, 09:42:01 pmYes they are when you don't know where to source them from.This is your project for today.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 10:53:12 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on July 11, 2022, 10:02:59 pmFrom a place that would match a "Budget ($150-$400) scope"?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 11:13:48 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 11, 2022, 10:53:12 pm$15/ea for 100 MHz fixed 10x sensing probes our buy price sound OK ?Course it does, now get busy and find something similar ?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 07:53:08 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 11, 2022, 11:13:48 pmThere's none on siglent.eu so I have no idea where you're looking.https://www.siglent.eu/accessories/oscilloscope-probes

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 08:59:01 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 12, 2022, 07:53:08 amYou had just one job.....and yes I did never say where I was looking but I did say thisYears of research had me find sources I am not willing to publicly share.I've even used these to beat down the unjustified prices Siglent want for their probes.Now get busy willya !

author: arturmariojr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2022, 12:18:52 am
content: Hantek no!!! Stay away from this model you cited. It's very noisy. My one os unusable beyond 9MHz. I'm doing a cirjury on It these days, but I really do not expect fix the noise. Just beautifull trash.Keep away and save your money, brain and humor.