Water Heater for an Airline Trolly? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 10:02:37 pm
content: HeyI will rent 2019 (or 2020) some Trains/ Bus and make some Trips with Member of your Social Club.The main Problem I need a lot Hot Drinking Water! Its impossible to Store them because there is no way to get them with the law compliant. To prepare Food there are several hygiene standards I have to fit in even when I handle canned food.The only option is put a Pipe into an Water canister and head them up when the flow troth.Its there such a system who can put into an Airline Trolley (you know from the Aircraft Service)?The must work without external resource like an Power cord or so.Thanks

author: meeder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 10:20:34 pm
content: You want to heat water without an external energy source?

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 10:26:12 pm
content: yes. Maybe there is an Trolly on the Market who is affordable who have an Water pump and an Heater inside?

author: meeder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 05:35:35 am
content: How do you want to heat water without a power source? Battery? How long should it be able to heat water and how much water do you want to heat?Aircraft trolleys do not have active heating in them.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 05:45:08 am
content: He mentions "a lot" so a propane tank would probably be the most practical. Unless it's only used on sunny days in which case a solar thermal collector might be worth considering.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 05:49:19 am
content: That sounds like a Russian/Turkish "Samovar" - basically a tea making device..

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 05:54:20 am
content: Quote from: meeder on January 14, 2018, 10:20:34 pmHe means portable for a food cart...not free energy...There are portable gas (propane) tankless water heaters. They will produce exhaust so will need to be in a well vented area (IE might not be so good inside the bus or train). You can get small 12V water pumps for them if they aren't included.Here's a cheap one with pump included.https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eccotemp-Eccotemp-L10-Portable-Gas-Water-Heater-w-Flojet-Pump-Strainer-L10-Pump-Strainer/205583920Here's a professional heater.https://store.benscarts.com/Portable-On-Demand-Water-Heater-L5-L6-p/hwh.htmhttp://store.benscarts.com/12-Volt-On-demand-water-pump-p/odp.htm(pump for above)If you want to go all electric for indoor use, you'll need an inverter and a car battery. Not sure what the smallest electric water heater you can get is though, but so far they all seem to be about 1.5KW, which means you'll need a pretty hefty inverter.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 10:05:46 am
content: QuoteYes.Quotea good Question.At the moment I dont have plan any trip. But there are many diferent options now. The start from rent an City Bus for Sightseeing where just ~50 Pax have space and the other extreme is an Train with ~400 Pax. So the System should be that Versatile to fit into both scenarios.My idea is something like that:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankless_water_heatingQuoteThe are just an shell who everyone can build something into. Sure the are not longer certified to use on board an Aircraft but the dont need to.Quotepropane onboard an Train?!QuoteYes and No the major problem is the Hot Water have to stored there for a long time and keep to hold the temperature. So if I dont need Hot Water for ~3h the energy get wasted.QuoteI had the same idea.The other Point is with an Hot Water Tank System the have to be Preheated. That can get very complicated when the Trolly get stored in an nearby Hotel Basement or even at an Bus Company Basement. I will serve Instant Tee and Coffee and onboard the Train Freeze Dried Meals. The have an very good price point.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 10:15:24 am
content: Potentially stupid idea warning!Would a vacuum dewar work in reverse? IE, if it can keep things frozen, would it work to keep liquid warm?Then all you would have to worry about is the pump.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 10:29:31 am
content: Just take any old airline airplane, remove the wings, and add 4 wheels. They all have galleys with hot water.Is this really a problem?

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 10:35:22 am
content: ... Again. When I make some Tours the Trolly have to stored somewhere. I have no Car and cant Transport it after the Trip back Home so the have to be stored in the Bus/ Hotel Basement. Do you relay think preheat the Trolly before I arrive there?Quote... If you mean find an Solution for Yes it is.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 10:35:52 am
content: For my religious friends, during the 24 hour Sabbath when they cant use any electricity/gas/wood for heating of water, they have a huge thermos/Dewer which holds something like 25L of water, which plugs in and boils it. When unplugged, (since they don't use electricity during the Sabbath), it keeps the water hot for 24 hours if they only use half of the water.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 10:38:33 am
content: The other Point is size and weight.Quote

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 10:43:15 am
content: When docked in their station, the airline trolleys are electrically heated.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 10:45:15 am
content: I can't imagine that if the water is kept near boiling point it's not legal ... that's self sterilizing.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 11:01:31 am
content: QuoteI will have no doc. or something elese maybe just at home. If the Bus Company allow me to park the Trolly the will push it somewhere in there Basement until I will pick it up. Sure I will drain the hole Water inside the System before I leaf the Trolly.Hopefully the plug it into the Powersocket for a while but that mean I need an reliable charging thing who have safty things inside to prevent some explosion or even Fire!QuoteNobody sayed that. The point is use Gas on board the Train/ Bus is quite illegal. Maybe with (very expensive) Certification but not with normal gear you get online. Boiling Water isnt that problem but the System musst be 100% leakage proof so if the Trolley is fallen over there have no hot Water is flowing outside and harm someone. The next problem is the Trolly must be sealed up and have to be tamper proof to prevent someone from put any dangerous, poison, harmful Material into the System.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 11:09:19 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on January 15, 2018, 05:54:20 amI agree about using gas or perhaps even a spirit burner.If combustion isn't acceptable, then why use an inverter? If a 12V heater isn't available, in the desired power rating, then use multiple cells/batteries in series to power a 120V mains heater.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 11:30:51 am
content: Are there any OEM Products out there who can fit into an Shoebox size Box or better use the full length of the trolley but not the hight.Before someone say there are products on the Market there is a company who make such Tolley but the Minium order is +10 Peace....https://www.abc-int.it/produtcs/espresso-coffee-trolley

author: Urs42
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 12:12:56 pm
content: It seems that you are in austria, ceka.ch is selling Minibar trolleys from the Swiss Federal Railwayshttps://www.ceka.ch/de/cekatec-shop-sbb-minibar/sbb-minibar-neu-mit-gebrauchtem-brennstoffzellen-system.26The fuel cell in this thing can deliver about 1500W and it seems to be save to run in a train...And now i want a minibar...

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 12:20:18 pm
content: 4.800,00 CHF....An Airline Trolley cost from China ~500€:https://rstrolley.en.alibaba.com/product/1848994105-221790711/Aviation_inflight_aircraft_airline_catering_meal_trolley_cart.html?spm=a2700.8304367.prewdfa4cf.25.21ea4bc7BLzEOwAn European Produced one maybe 1000€.

author: hayatepilot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 01:57:17 pm
content: Quote from: Lord of nothing on January 15, 2018, 12:20:18 pmBut those cheap ones don't have 1500W of Hydrogen fuel cells in them!This china thing is just a cabinet on wheels...

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 02:20:08 pm
content: sure but how about Lithium Accu or even Led one?So whats next head it up with Thermit ?I tough the best way is some kind of Accu with an electric heat element?!Quite safe and easy to maintain.EDIT: Nice Technology and for the SBB its fordable when a Cub of Tee cost 6€.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 03:49:03 pm
content: Quote from: hayatepilot on January 15, 2018, 01:57:17 pmIt's a food cart! Not a mission to the moon!Batteries are the best option probably. But I don't know if there are low voltage water heaters, I would think the current would be huge. But, I'll look anyway. Otherwise you'll need an inverter, doesn't have to be the cleanest output one, I don't think a heater will care, as long as it's safety certified.Nope, the only 12V heaters I could find were submersables, AKA just bare elements with no enclosure. Or portable kettles, but that's not spill proof.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 03:57:37 pm
content: Also, if the water is already heated, you don't need the 1500 watts to keep it hot, just to rapidly boil cold water. 200-300 watts should suffice if the water container is well insulated. A 48v battery feeding a 120v kettle should keep the water steaming hot once it has already been boiled. No inverter, only need around 5 amps at 48v and just use simple DC.48v is 4 motorcycle batteries, or 1 telecom battery pack.You can get Lithium 48v battery packs for electric bikes with external chargers & quick disconnect brackets, in approved housings.72v ebike lithium battery packs also exist. That would be 7.2 amps / 500 watts into a 120v kettle. You can keep water perpetually boiling at that power level. In fact, it would take around 30 minutes to boil the water instead of 10 with 1500 watts. (Small kettle size obviously)You'll just need one of these:https://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dkitchen&field-keywords=Hot+Water+Urn

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 04:20:00 pm
content: A lot of those seem to have electronics that will definitely not function on DC or if undervolted. Also, are they spillproof?EDIT: so you'd still need an inverter, but at least it would be smaller.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 04:26:32 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on January 15, 2018, 04:20:00 pmJust buy the large ones which have 2 simple mechanical switches, like this guy:https://www.amazon.ca/West-Bend-33600-100-Cup-Commercial/dp/B00004RC6S/ref=sr_1_4?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1516033472&sr=1-4&keywords=Hot+Water+Urnhttps://www.amazon.ca/West-Bend-13500-Polished-Aluminum-Commercial/dp/B0006GQ8J0/ref=pd_sim_79_4?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=HYXGJ1E5XJ2SJTEPSKMPhttps://www.amazon.ca/Stainless-Steel-Double-Insulated-Water/dp/B00D95CZA6/ref=sr_1_10?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1516033472&sr=1-10&keywords=Hot+Water+UrnThough, the lamps if they are neon, may not illuminate. If they are filament or led, the will shine dim.Other than that, the high power element is just seen as a 10 ohm resistor with a mechanical over heat thermal switch + mechanical switch.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 04:35:28 pm
content: 72v bike battery:This guy should keep you water boiling for at least, say the kettle element is on 60% of the time, averaging 300 watts, for around 6 hours.https://em3ev.com/shop/em3ev-72v-20s10p-rectangle-battery-pack-24-5ah-29-5ah/You can find a smaller the price at Alibaba/Aliexpress, but, I wont guarantee their Ah rating. Most include a charger with their price and they have sizes up 60Ah giving you something like 10 hours.https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20180115084633&SearchText=72v+bike+batteryhttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/72V-60AH-lithium-battery-super-power-electric-bike-battery-4000W-lithium-ion-battery-pack-charger-BMS/32740297632.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.88.6FEaHD&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10151_10065_10344_10130_10068_10547_10342_10325_10546_10343_10340_10548_10341_10084_10083_10139_10615_10307_10059_10314_10534_100031_10604_10103_10142,searchweb201603_6,ppcSwitch_5&algo_expid=f3f176c0-b8c8-4fe4-9b03-1db9bee93401-14&algo_pvid=f3f176c0-b8c8-4fe4-9b03-1db9bee93401&priceBeautifyAB=0

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 04:53:00 pm
content: Assuming they will work straight off of a battery, they will run the elements a lot longer. The thermostats in these things are designed with a temp margin expecting full heat from the element. So the element comes on only if the water gets below X degrees, because they expect it to only take Y amount of time to heat back up. But if you undervolt it, it'll take significantly longer, and would still have to use the same amount of energy (because thermodynamics), that's assuming it will even keep it warm at all.EDIT: If the OP is ok with a slow kettle then fine. Otherwise use an inverter, you'll have to use the same amount of energy anyway.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 05:08:52 pm
content: so many idea YEY!QuoteBut the mission on the Moon had the some problem limited resource.Mine problem is I dont know how many people will order something. If the Train is full there could be 300 - 500 Pax in total!When I charter an City Bus the could be just 50 or so.Quotethats the majo point! What could happened if you bode something in who is not made for you can see the results here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaprun_disasterQuotethe problem is for example when I rent an Bus the is just minutes before departure ready to board. So where should the Water get heat up? Next thing is everything must be fit in with the hygienic standards. The problem start when I have to fill it with Water the must happened by Law in an "Hygienic Environment" like an Kitchen or so.Quoteand the have to fit INTO the Trolley!QuoteI know the led Accu from my UPS System.Thankfully the Bus have an Ram and for the Train I would need an "Wheelchair Elevator" or how the called.QuoteGood for Stationary usage but onboard an Bus? What was the last Time you took an Citybus?The Trolley must be secured with (thick) Belts who known from the Truck inside the Bus to stay it secured during the Ride.Quoteno information about the how many L can get in...Quoteare there no industrial Heater Systems on the Market who can run with an Battery?!

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 05:13:31 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on January 15, 2018, 04:53:00 pmYour loosing efficiency in the step up.The thermostat in the kettles measure the water temp, not the element temp, or, the element % power duty cycle like on a stove.The element sits in the water in the kettles, not under a pot like in a stove setup.He can always buy 2 x 1/2 capacity batteries and use them in series. The total price is the same, but, no loss with a step-up inverter. Or, even 2 full 50 Ah batteries and boil and run the kettles at full speed all day.However, anyway you dice it, the total Ah costs money. Running 12v to 120v ac, or even 240, he will need high current cable and loose a good 20-30% efficiency due to heat in an inverter running full tilt at a whopping 1500 watts, plus it's fan and circuitry. 2x 72v batteries will have only the 10 amps lost in the wiring into the kettle, not the 100 amps at 12v + the inverter circuitry.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 05:18:40 pm
content: 100 coffee cup unit holds 25L of water. As for working in a moving environment, your guess is as good as mine.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 06:04:19 pm
content: So now you propose he runs a 120VAC heater on 144VDC?It might survive, but it would be dicy though, and probably void any warrenty and shorten the lifespan.Are there any 60V batteries then?

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 06:47:44 pm
content: Quote from: Lord of nothing on January 15, 2018, 05:08:52 pmMake arrangements with the catering operation at the hotel where you are staying to: (1) Drain and then fill with fresh potable water. (2) Store your gadget in their kitchen (or checked baggage holding area) overnight, plugged in to pre-heat and re-charge the batteries. If you are touring with a large group, they should be amenable to provide special services like that. It is not that much different from what their food service people do.If you need to scale the operation from 40 to 400 customers, simply use more of the carts. Like one for each 40 people, touring coach, rail car, etc.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 07:21:55 pm
content: Quoteat Home?The Other Point is I cant carry them arround by Public Transport so the have to be at the Basement of an Bus Company. Hopefully the lett me store it there!

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 07:37:12 pm
content: You might want to have a look at the self-heating of zeolith when it is absorbing water. Available on ebay.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 07:51:39 pm
content: OK, I'll bite. What is an airline trolley?

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 09:05:49 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on January 15, 2018, 10:35:52 amBefore I make another suggestion, let me echo the thermos suggestion. It is a great suggestion. Low cost, and it will keeps the heat for well over 24 hours. The plastic ones are ok, but the glass-inside ones are superb.Now, another suggestion:US Military uses something call MRE (Meal Ready to Eat) with its own chemical based heater. The MRE heater packs are available commercially. The heater pack activates by adding water and goes to over 200F/93C. MREs originated with the military, so it is very robust in handling and designed for "on the go" situation.In the US, the MRE heater pack is about $2 (each pack) in 6cnt batch and drops to around $1 for 72cnt batch. I think large volume discount is available but you will have to price that out yourself for where you are. Here is one supplier to help get your research started:https://www.thereadystore.com/mre-heater

author: Urs42
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 09:10:02 pm
content: You can use calcium oxide to heat the water, no electricity needed...

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 09:44:42 pm
content: QuoteIf you're serious, you need to decide how many people ONE cart is supposed to serve. Simply declaring it should cover 300-500 people isn't going to make it work.You also need to decide how much of that space you're willing to give up to non-consumables. Is it more profitable to be able to serve 75 people with food and cold drinks, or 50 people with food and hot/cold drinks? And while you're at it, what's the maximum weight you can tolerate for a loaded cart? Do you personally have to lift it on/off busses/trains?And since you're making your lack of a vehicle an obstacle, how do you intend to restock this cart? If you can handle that, you should be able to handle access to power and/or filling of thermoses with hot beverages at appropriate points.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 10:20:29 pm
content: Quote from: Lord of nothing on January 15, 2018, 07:21:55 pmYou have "40-400" travelers staying at your home?QuoteYou seem to have painted yourself into an impossible corner there.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 11:14:00 pm
content: Quotenot realy I cant transport them when the are filled with water and if the Bus Operator allow me store it in the basement i believe the would not maintain it. So its not an option.Quotehere one Pack cost 5€ each and the are not permitted to use do to there chemical reaction. The would trigger the Smoke Detector.QuoteQuotealso an bad idea. Chemical thinks are not permitted to use.Only Radio Active () and Electrical is no problem to use.Quotenope just where every the book or stay.Quotebefore the next trip start. If I run out of something the are out thats it. Maybe on an very long (Multi) Day Trip talk to an Upcoming Partner (Hotel) for resupply but at the moment there is no concept for.QuoteWhere? Onboard an City Bus? Forget about. Onboard an Train? Yes the newest have Power Outlets but the older dont have any Powersocket for Passenger who I could use.Quotethe will run dry very quick! And than?QuoteI think 150kg in total becouse the Wheelchair Elevator cant handle more.QuoteThe Bus have an Ramp who can use if I rent the Bus. The Tram have no Ramp becouse the are realy low floor. And for long distance Trains I have to Rent the Wheelchair Elevator.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2018, 07:24:20 pm
content: You are now at a corner smaller than a typical high school events in my area. They have all sorts of limitations so as not to step on any health/safety regulations.At this point, you should consider serving cold canned/bottled drinks with (all store purchased in un-opened wrap), potato chips, cookies, crackers, and candy bars.Besides grocery store stuff, you should also contactvending machine suppliers. Anything they sell can be done cold and are individually wrapped. Your food cart now is a human-operated vending machine - with added $ margin for operating expense and your trouble...The crackers-and-cheese packages we got here in the USA isn't bad. For a day trip, I can deal with it and in fact that is my go-to snack for quick trips -- but you may have more discriminating customers. So, for those, you take pre-orders. Those you would have larger $ margin to deal with -- for the limited few who want filet-mignon and foie gras on wheels with a hot cup of English earl grey.I better stop talking about food... I am getting hungry.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2018, 09:00:00 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on January 15, 2018, 10:35:52 amMy oven has a "Sabbath mode" which I accidentally triggered once, I had to read the manual to figure out what the heck it was and how to disable it.Some of those contraptions are really pretty funny. It always struck me as a bit odd too, I mean if you actually believe that god doesn't want you to do any work on that day, don't you think he'd be like "Hey smartass, nice try!" when one tries to exploit various loopholes to get around literal interpretations of their religious text?

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2018, 05:17:18 pm
content: 3-500 people?https://rh_marketplace.s3.amazonaws.com/cropped/main/aYEX95WvQyNfd1o82kKJ_20141111_131655.jpga few of these is what you're looking for, heater for the water baths. Cooler for keeping drinks, on ice etc. Drive behind the bus, and find an auto-train to move them with the people.