Rigol 5074 vs Siglent SDS2104X Plus vs Keysight DSOX1204G - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: nichrist
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 09, 2021, 08:37:39 pm
content: Hi,The three models are extensively reviewed in the past but I think now that are in the mature phase it would be helpful from end users, or any others with relative knowledge, to point out their positives and negatives. For a starting point I did a research and I made a comparison chart.Rigol 5074 Siglent SDS2104X Plus Keysight DSOX1204G4 channels 4 channels 4 channelsBandwidth 70MHz 100MHz 70MHzSample rate 8GSa/s 1ch, 4GSa/s per 2ch 2GSa/s 2ch, 1GSa/s per 4ch 2 GSa/s (1 or 1/2 channel operation)Sample rate 2GSa/s per 4ch 1 GSa/s (3 or 4 chl operation)Mem depth 100Mpoints 1ch, 50 per 2ch 200Mpoints per 2ch 2 Mpoints (1 or 1/2 channel operation)25Mpoints per 4ch 100Mpoints per 4ch 1 Mpoints (3 or 4 channel operation)WF update 500,000 waveforms/sec 480,000 waveforms/sec 200,000 waveforms/secSegmented memory ? ? YesResolution 8bit 8bit (10bit mode) 8bitProbes 4 Passive Probes 350 MHz 4 Passive Probes 200 MHz 4 Passive Probes 200 MHzWaveGen 2 Channel 25MHz 1 Channel 50MHz +-3V 1 Channel 20MHzBode Plot Yes? Yes YesSerial prot I²C, SPI, UART/RS-232, CAN, LIN I²C, SPI, RS232/UART, CAN, LIN I²C, SPI, UART/RS-232, CAN, LINFFT Yes Yes 2Mpts YesDisplay 9'' capacitive multi-touch screen 10.1'' TFT LCD touch (1024x600) 7-inch TFT LCD WVGAConnectivity USB, LAN, and HDMI USB, LAN USB 2.0 (host anddevice), LANNoise floor (Not good)? 80μV rms at 500MHz BW ?Cost (included 19%VAT)1.050 € 1.430 € 1.430 €Regards

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2021, 08:51:11 pm
content: Additional commentsSDS2000X Plus models are a 500 MHz design.SDS2104X Plus proven -3dB BW is ~185 MHz.Current promotion includes some free options:https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e1464-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2021, 08:59:57 pm
content: Quote from: nichrist on February 09, 2021, 08:37:39 pmDave should insert in the forum a "stock ticker" bar with the arguments of each scope so that we are always update...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2021, 10:09:00 pm
content: That chart completely ignores the fact that everybody around here hacks them to unlock more features (eg, 350MHz bandwidth)

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2021, 11:07:24 pm
content: A hacked unit is more likely to be at full bandwidth ie 550-600MHz -3db... 350 is just a marketing stunt targeted at business

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2021, 11:37:37 pm
content: Quote from: Elasia on February 09, 2021, 11:07:24 pmI guess you mean the Siglent? The Rigol 5000 is useless for HF without 50 Ohm inputs.

author: Noy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 12:08:22 am
content: The siglent has no real 50 ohm input for what i know..Its only a 50 ohm termination resistor..Not a lot better than an external through termination on a rigol.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 02:36:16 am
content: Quote from: Noy on February 10, 2021, 12:08:22 amThe Siglent SDS2102X Plus we have (enabled with the help of folks on here) has a return loss of better than -20dB to >500MHz, it's -38dB @ 100MHz (SWR 1.02), -41dB @ 200MHz (SWR 1.01), and -29dB @ 350MHz (SWR 1.07). Measured -3dB bandwidth is >600MHz, not too bad an input IMO, and certainly easier than fiddling with external BNC terminations!!Best,

author: DeepLink
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 07:10:52 am
content: I tried several scope's before deciding on a Siglent SDS2104X+ (and did transform that into a SDS2354X+ incl. all options)Each have their own requirementsMine selection list is hereScreen.The Rigol was not very brightThe Keysight was only 7" and as I'm getting older I wanted something bigger(Even tried the R&S RTB2000, but it had so much reflection)The Siglent has a good screen, but I would have liked a 12"Options.Rigol and Siglent has the possibility to unlock it allKeysight is quite expensive to increase BW or optionsRigol and Siglent can be upgarded with 16 digital channels (not possible on the Keysight)User InterfaceRigol was not very polished and I found it to be a little "messy"Siglent is much more my way (but I always will prefer separate controls for each channel)Siglent's speed is ok, but not snappy (as my old HP 54645D)ProbesThe Rigol and Keysight are missing probe detection interfaceAs I had some Agilent probes, I wanted my scope to detect it properlyThe probes on entry level scope are not that good from any brandI ended up with the Siglent SDS2104X+ and have no regrets so far (still learning)(A Keysight MSOX4000 would be a dream scope for me, but totally out of reach)

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 09:25:17 am
content: In that price range I would go for a Rohde & Schwarz RTB2002 (or a RTB2004).

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 09:54:04 am
content: Quote from: Karel on February 10, 2021, 09:25:17 amAnd pray tell, what would that price range be? 3000€? 2000€ 1000€ ?

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 10:17:31 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 10, 2021, 09:54:04 amQuote from: nichrist on February 09, 2021, 08:37:39 pmRTB-2002 1559 € VAT includedRTB-2004 2142 € VAT included ok, this one is outside of the price range

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 11:14:11 am
content: Quote from: Karel on February 10, 2021, 10:17:31 amRTB2002 is a 2 ch 70MHz scope without segmented memory, protocol decodes, only 10 MS memory per channel, no digital channels, no signal generator, no bode plot option....So to compare it with siglent SDS2104X+ you need to buy RTB-2004 (for 4ch) , 100 MHz bandwith upgrade (380€) and option bundle (1500 €).. A 4000 € worth... In which case you are better of just buying full option package RTB2K-COM4 SA for 4050€..Or a Siglent SDS5034X for a one class up scope, for 500€ less, which buys you decent enough standalone AWG, that you can use for bode plots up to 120 MHz with the scope.....R&S is a legend of a company...But despite that, RTB2000 series is fancy looking but completely unremarkable scope with too high price..It should start at 100 MHz (keeping the price of 70MHz) and have full option bundle included in price to be competitive. Also, not having 50 Ohm inputs is just lame for a 350 MHz scope.Just look at their marketing that is completely untrue :"10 Msample memory depth is available on each channel if all channels are active. When interleaved, 20 Msample are available.That is 10 times more than comparable oscilloscopes offer. This captures longer signal sequences for more analysis results."That is actually exactly opposite. Several cheaper scopes have10 times MORE memory than that....In last few years since they released 2000/3000/4000 series, many things happened. They need to adapt and change or perish...Being a legend means you were once great, old glory stories.My biggest regret is that R&S, in their corporate narcissism and greed killed off HAMEG brand.They should have kept it and use that to make and sell affordable but good equipment. That way they could have kept segmentation to normal/premium markets, but still provide decent instruments.The way it is now, they are deliberately giving you as little as possible... So you have reason to buy higher models...And it might be working for them on their primary market. Same as Fluke, who targets industry and really don't care about other markets.But in general, open market R&S is not competitive at all with 2000 series, not until you reach 3000/4000 series that compete in different area... And that is not set in stone either, and depends on many factors..

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 01:06:34 pm
content: They wanted to sayThat is 10 times LOWER than comparable oscilloscopes offer.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 01:40:49 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on February 10, 2021, 01:06:34 pmThat depends on how you compare. There are sveral things that make the RTB2000 series way better compared to the other oscilloscopes listed. Take full memory decoding and the way decoding is displayed for example. Or 10 bit resolution, high resolution screen, good user interface. If you are going to spend serious money then it is a good idea to see what else is out there. And it is not entirely true that the RTB2000 offers less memory. With segmented recording on it offers up to 320Msamples per channel. That is 3 times more compared to to the Siglent (which has the deepest memory of the scopes mentioned by the OP). You just can't use it for a single trace which is a bit of a bummer.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 03:27:01 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 10, 2021, 01:40:49 pmI know exactly how I compared. RTB-2004 is 70 MHz 4 CH scope without anything. Anything. No segmented memory at all, no decodes of anything, no signal gen, no bode plot. Nothing.With 10 Mpoints per chanel (20 interleaved). It literally is less capable than Micsig STO1104E.For low price of €2380.Siglent SDS2104X Plus has 100 MHz bandwidth, it comes fully unlocked (except MSO license and hardware), and has 100 Mpoint/CH (200 interleaved). It also has more memory in segmented mod, don't know how much now...For whooping €1427...Once you unlock R&S to have same set of capability (except memory, that will always be 10 times less than SDS2000X+) RTB2004 will cost more than €4200..It is that simple. Nothing complicated with that.For €4200 you can buy better scope than RTB2000.. Or you can buy3(that'sthree) SDS2104X+ and equip3 workplaceswith a scope....While I do agree with you that there are some things on RTB2000 user interface that are (at the moment) more polished than they are on SDS2000X+ now, there is nothing justifying three times the price...RTB2000 outpriced itself from a category. I consider it to be a failed model. It is not capable enough to be fully pro, and too expensive for what it is..

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 03:36:47 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 10, 2021, 03:27:01 pmFor RTB to be competitive, we would also have to go the LIY route. (LIY = license it yourself)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 03:49:35 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 10, 2021, 03:27:01 pmThat €1427 is wasted if the oscilloscope doesn't do what you need. Better spend 4k (RTB2k + option bundle) on a good instrument that does what you need from the start rather than spending 5.5k (1.5k for a POS + 4k for a good tool). Been there, done that. In the end you need a tool that works for you; if the RTB2k series is a better fit then the money is well spend. Not saying the RTB2k is always a better scope, it is just an example here to show price isn't everything.Every time I look at Rigol and Siglent equipment there is something missing so I end up spending 'more' for a piece of equipment that actually fits my needs. Buying equipment just for the sake of being cheap just isn't a good idea. If those three SDS2104X+ from your example aren't up to the task then they are an utter waste of money.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 09:57:23 pm
content: SDS2000X+ is BETTER scope than RTB2000.....And cheaper..RTB2000 is shining example of how today with western products more money doesn't necessarily mean better.RTB2000 is typical of today western product: lot of style, design, big names and blah performance.R&S 3000 and 4000 series (and up of course) are serious, powerful products.RTB2000 is not.. Just pretty, and fancy.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 11:24:38 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 10, 2021, 09:57:23 pmBuzzzz wrong. Compared to the SDS2000X+ the RTB2000 has better memory management, full memory decoding, a higher resolution screen, on screen annotations, better display for protocol decoding, 10 bit ADC resolution, better UI and there are probably a few things I'm leaving out. In the end it just comes down to what is important to the prospective buyer.For me personally the clumsy memory management in the Siglent scope and short memory in the Keysight scope are a hard fail so to me those scopes have zero value for money.BTW I don't see how 'western world' comes into this discussion. You are aware R&S gear is made in eastern Europe?

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 11:38:34 pm
content: Hellonctnico wrote: "And it is not entirely true that the RTB2000 offers less memory. With segmented recording on it offers up to 320Msamples per channel. That is 3 times more compared to to the Siglent"The 320 Msamples are in interleaved mode. But a sample is as I know 16 Bit.How is this by Siglent? There a sample is only 8 Bit, but how much memory is in segmented mode?Best regardsegonotto

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 11:50:44 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 10, 2021, 11:24:38 pmEye candy and your bias.. Irrelevant to non Nicos of this world. Siglent are just fine if you use them after reading user manual. And Keysight scopes have short memory, which makes them bad for some uses. But they have a mile long list of capabilities that R&S RTM3000 doesn't have (like search on serial protocols, many measurements) that made me buy MSOX3104T over RTM3000.Quote from: nctnico on February 10, 2021, 11:24:38 pmSeriously? Berlin wall fell long time ago... But that statement might explain your struggle to change with the changing world....

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 11:53:01 pm
content: Quote from: egonotto on February 10, 2021, 11:38:34 pmR&S 2000/3000/4000 have 10 Bit converters..I don't have SDS2000X+ here so I can't check and tell you...

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2021, 12:52:38 am
content: The SDS2104X Plus has 8 bit core ADCs that are expanded with software for higher resolutions up to 100MHz, which works surprisingly well IMO.I've been using scopes probably longer than most here have been alive, over 60 years, and can say without a doubt the Siglent SDS2102X Plus is the most impressive value instrument we have ever owned. Don't have the other DSOs mentioned, so won't comment, but this Siglent scope continues to impress in every way and use, just like the post above about how good the input vertical amplifiers are. Everything about this DSO impresses, and leaves one feeling that it's a much more expensive instrument, from a much higher category, than the price tag indicates.Best,

author: normi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 02:04:39 am
content: I am in the hunt for a new scope to upgrade from my DS1052E. I have been going over all the various posts on the entire forum regarding the Rigol 5074 vs Siglent SDS2104X and while it is clear that there are persons with bias on both sides, my objective conclusion is the following.1. IMHO the main difference between the scopes is that the Siglent has a quieter front end and a more attractive GUI, VS the Rigol has significantly more sample rate. Based on my observation persons mention the user interface of the Siglent as better but I think that is more the GUI, as one advantage of the Rigol is that it still maintains the ability to use most functions with buttons rather than the touch screen, also it has independent channel controls. These are significant parts of the UI. Observe all the reviews, including Dave’s, most people still gravitate towards the buttons not the touch screen. If you have ever worked on repairs you would realize your hands get dirty and touch screens and dirt don’t go well together. There is also the 500Mhz option for the Siglent, but at 2G sample rate it is borderline but an advantage.2. Most persons are likely to hack both scopes, which means comparison would have to be at the lowest price point. The price difference between both scopes would be $400 or $490 if you were to hack the 2-channel version and had 350Mhz probes already. Additionally, a hacked Siglent would need 4 x 350Mhz probes after upgrade which could add another $200 to its cost.3. Based on the success of the Rigol 1000 series being primarily driven by low cost, available features and a history of hacking, sales of the MSO5000 will way out pace the Siglent since this looks like the same strategy is in play. (not a reason for purchase)4. These scopes are a step up for the hobbyist but the cost point will be an overwhelming selling point. If paying 50% more for a scope does not matter then one should be looking at the A brand scopes.5. I have noticed very few contributors who have pointed out issues with both scopes have explained how the + or – affects use in the real world, and so persons may be deciding on a purchase based on something they will never need or may never matter.Based on all the above I have decided that the Rigol gives the best value proposition by far (if scope will be hacked). The MSO5074 $90 cost over the MSO5072 is less than the cost of the 2 x 350Mhz probes included with the MSO5074, so you don’t actually pay for the upgrade to 4 Channels.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 03:31:51 am
content: Did you watch the comparison video by member Howardlong ?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 05:01:29 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 29, 2021, 03:31:51 amYes, but depending on what you work on that might have no effect at all, eg. If you're working on 5V logic all day long.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 05:57:45 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 29, 2021, 03:31:51 amIt is fun but I have not seen so much comments about things what happen when starting from video there is continuously running this 1kHz sinewaves.Look carefully this Rigol screen... first I thing this is just camera reason etc but when compare with eyes Siglent and Rigol live screen carefully... why this Rigol have continuous horizontal jitter. It is horrible. Same time Siglent is rock solid, just as still image.Also even with this signal level noise in Rigol is really visible.But then other things..Quote from: normi on March 29, 2021, 02:04:39 amIf your hands are really dirty you do not need even touch scope.Just use mouse. (SDS2000X Plus)Do not go fooled with this samplerate. In this case it is least partially marketing trick and nothing more in practice. In camera world there is pixels and pixels... in scope world there is samples and samples.In scope, look also Effective bits:.Here @Howardlong test what is quite well made afaik.Image fromhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/benefits-of-going-with-all-siglent-setup/msg3281580/#msg32815808GSa/s scope... barely 5 bits scope.Also max memory when option activated is 200M it is divided between all channels. One channel get max 200M, two 100M and four 50But it need also think that many times we are interested about how long capture we can get when we think time, not amount of samples.If our thinking is based to time, 200M with 8GSa/s equals 50M with 2GSa/sSiglent have 2x 200M and 2x 2GSa/sRigol have 1x 200M and 1x 8GsaThink worst case4 channels on.Rigol 2GSa/s and 50M / channelSiglent 1Gsa/s and 100M / channel. You get 4 times more max capture length in time.Then Rigol claim they have up to 12 bit resolution in HiRes mode... how about Effective bits...After then... also. What do with these 12 bits. Just nothing but bit less noise in image. How you get these 12 bit out from scope, do you have 12 bit data. No, you have not.How about Siglent 10 bit mode. It beats this Rigol 12 bit "HigRes" mode hands down AND it also give 10Bit data to you. Of course it also eat more memory, in 10bit mode every data point takes two bytes from memory, naturally.Rigol have 1M FFT Siglent 2M. But what you do also need is dynamic range. Where is Rigol noise floor, where is Siglent noise floor.Then just for fun because it is so fun... this Rigol BodePlot joke what is nothing but one featuire more in salesmens brochure. It is toy. It is nothing with this real tool what is in SDS2000Xplus. No need here explain details... up to 300 pints / decade when siglent have 1+3 channels FRA with up to 275204396/decade (yes if dirty salesman tell it, but still he do not lie because Siglent can use 500points also minimum span 500Hz and this can do up to 120MHz. From 119.9995MHz to 120.0000MHz sweep with 500 data pints is just this told amount per Decade.)Naturally not all peoples need FRA or FFT.Then, you are looking Rigol screen and you note something weird just happen. You stop scope... but of course you are bit late.With Siglent, depending settings, you stop scope and look history.Naturally, all depends just one individual user needs, there is not totally common better, but perhaps there can find totally common shits but these I do not name at all. Rigol is better to one and Siglent is better to one other. Keysight if for one and Tek is for other, also LeCroy, also R&S also ZLG. All these make good scopes and if go more up in needs (and pocket) still there is LeCroy, Tek, KS and R&S, every brand and model is just best for one. There is not universal best, unlike long time ago when there was only three best names, Tektronix, Tektronix, Tektronix. I have started touching and using oscilloscopes in these decades. Today I know there is many good scopes. Everyone can find personally best scope for his needs and his budget.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 01:52:07 pm
content: ...and here we go again with the table that's been faulted by the oh-so-frequent DC offset mistake when measuring Vrms, as has been discussed starting fromhere.Simply speaking: Yes, the MSO5000 is considerably more noisy than the SDS2000X. But it's not as bad as shown in the table. As it's been told before, the more noisy front-end will be a showstopper for one while it's a minor nuisance for another, depending on the application.For my own part, if I was in the market for a new scope in this class right now, the price would make the difference: If the "R" was within budget while I would have to stretch to get the "S", "R" would be it. If "S" is well within reach, I'ld go for this one!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 07:49:53 pm
content: Quote from: TurboTom on March 29, 2021, 01:52:07 pmAnd if youreallyneed to see low-level signals get yourself a signal amplifier and see themproperlyon any 'scope. A low noise front end will only take you so far.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 08:02:47 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 29, 2021, 07:49:53 pmLow noise is not just good for low level signals but for all kinds of signals. A big fat trace on the screen is hard to put a cursor on.

author: normi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 09:30:29 pm
content: I do admit that each scope has its strong points and week points, some more than others. My point is cost is often times the biggest factor when choosing a scope, if it were not we would be talking about Tektronix and Keysight not Siglent and Rigol. If the cheaper scope does not suit your needs, then money becomes the lesser factor and you spend more to get more.Based on the early reviews by Dave before firmware updates the Rigol does have numerous flaws, and Howardlong's review also points outs some remaining issues. Most of Daves issues appear to have been fixed and had the scope been reviewed after firmware update, it would have looked good. Even in the video which I had watched multiple times before my original post, Howardlong said it was a hard decision to make and he had both scopes side by side. If the difference was so huge he would have quickly made a choice. Dave also said if the MSO5000 was hacked, they couldn't keep it on the shelf. So if we were to conclude that the Siglent has less issues, would customers feel the difference is worth spending much more. If we were discussing the 100Mhz versions then cost would not be an issue since they would be similarly priced.rf-loop you have a lot of knowledge about the Siglent, I am not finding many persons with that similar knowledge and support for the Rigol, and this makes checking claims less easy.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 11:04:41 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 29, 2021, 07:49:53 pmYou have a source for 350Mhz bandwidth 10x low noise amplifiers that cost less than price difference?Cause that would be awesome...

author: IAmBack
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 09:39:17 am
content: Low noise front-end is important also because almost all measurements are done with 10x probes and requires extra front-end gain. My 2 cents. Of course, if we have active probes...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 09:51:28 am
content: Quote from: IAmBack on March 30, 2021, 09:39:17 amSo simple and so often overlooked.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 09:57:05 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on March 29, 2021, 11:04:41 pmSure, just search for"RF signal amplifier"on Aliexpress. Or build your own (see video below).When did you become price sensitive anyway? You're happy recommitting the Siglent as if it costs exactly the same as the Rigol.Quote from: normi on March 29, 2021, 09:30:29 pmYep. It's turtles all the way up. Why stop at the Siglent? eg. There's some tasty R&S 'scopes withgenuine10-bit DACs out there that are a real pleasure to use. They're only a few hundred dollars more!Wait... I know why it stops at Siglent - because there's only Siglent salesmen hanging around these forums. There's no R&S, Tek or Keysight salesmen here.Bottom line: Buy the 'scope that fits your needs. The Rigol offers plenty of bang per buck.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 11:00:06 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 30, 2021, 09:57:05 amDC-350 MHz, 10x low noise amplifier with less than 1% gain error at DC and better than 1 dB amplitude flatness up to -3dB at 350MHz.With switchable 50 Ohm/1MOhm/15pf oscilloscope like input.For pennies on Ali...As they say: " I am confusion, Ameriga explain!"And I didn't say an iota about Siglent.And I remember fondly my DS1074Z. Best spent money ever, those few years ago.Sweet thing, game changer back then, changed the market...But world marches on, new stuff comes.I disagree that low noise, 500uV/div is irrelevant and that any scope with higher noise and lower sensitivity is equal.It's not, it is worse, and for many uses it is important difference.If you are doing only digital stuff, then you might not need it.And no, you cannot buy some cheap preampf from Ali (or make one with 10kHz bandwith) and pretend it is same as real scope front end. Not by a mile. Designing scope front ends is pretty much the holly grail of industry, and is hard.Sad thing is that few years ago, Rigol made DS2000A series that had excellent, high sensitivity, low noise, front end. 5000 would have been waay better scope if they used that front end with new A/D instead of integrated front end chip whose design goal was 4 GHz bandwidth...Paired with A/D that was optimized for 4 GHz bandwidth. Quite frankly, it is not even that noisy, when you think about it.That front end chip paired with their A/D makes sense for the DS8000 series. For a 4GHz scope that one has respectable specs.Maybe they will make second generation that will have improved specs, and bandwidth filtering done in a way that pulls the noise down proportionally with bandwidth reduction. I don't know.But, while MSO5000 noise and sensitivity specs are not catastrophic, they are very not good either. So for low level work, there are better choices. And to clarify, for that kind of work I wouldn't recommend Keysight 3000A/T series either, or any of the Infiniivision scopes.Up to 100 MHz, I actually use my Micsig STO1104E when I need to see something "in a grass".

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 11:15:18 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on March 30, 2021, 11:00:06 amOK, notirrelevant.Neither is perfect, a low noise front end paired with an amplifier would beeven better.Quote from: 2N3055 on March 30, 2021, 11:00:06 amMe too.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 04:57:45 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on March 30, 2021, 11:00:06 am2N3055, a little off topic but some questions for you, plz/Thx.If you were looking at power supply ripple in the range of roughly 1-2mVRMS or 3-4mV Pk-Pk, would you expect to see any difference in the measuring or display rendering capability of the the Rigol 2k vs the Rigol 1k vs the Rigol 5k vs the Siglent 2k Plus? If not in this range, at what level of ripple or other noise would you expect to see the front end capabilities of the Rigol DSO2000A stand out, or in what use case and at what measurement levels would you expect to see differences in these models' ability to accurately discern, measure, and display noise? Thx

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 06:59:18 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on March 30, 2021, 04:57:45 pmOff topic but quickly.. Yes, that would be roughly the point where you would see the difference.. Make sure to use 20Mhz bandwidth limiter. Also make note scope noise is actually noise(thermal and quantize noise), while what we call "noise" in PSU is a combination of real broadband noise, ripple from power grid (50 Hz and 100Hz, and harmonics), switcher ripple, and various resonances, including instabilities in control loop.Noise is added as RMS, so to have good results rule of the thumb is that your instrument has to have 3x less noise than DUT to have cca 5% error in noise floor measurements.This is place where FFT is very useful, especially long FFT, that can achieve good frequency resolution..If you enable averaging, you can extract more data...That's quickly.For specialized measurements like measuring low frequency noise on LTZ1000, you will need preamp. For common switchers, you can do good measurements with low noise scope with 500uV/div. For verifying good linear PSU (cca 200-300uV rms) with a scope that has 80 uV RMS noise at 500 uV/div, you will be able to verify that it roughly passes specs. You won't be able to measure that accurately, but for repair and verification, you would be able to spot something is wrong or not.One more note and then back to topic. I know it's been said milion times, but measuring at 500uV/div level on scope is HARD...You need to make sure you're not measuring everything else in your environment except DUT... good probing is paramount.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 08:44:48 pm
content: Thanks for the helpful info above.Just to try to tie it off, roughly what difference (quantitatively in terms of mV, uV, or % and or/qualitatively) would you expect when measuring ~1mVRMS ripple with a 20MHz bandwidth filter assuming good probing technique (and really measuring the PS's performance rather than noise in the environment) when comparing a Rigol 2000 vs a Rigol 1000, and a Rigol 2000 vs a Siglent 2k Plus? (Is the Rigol 2k front end going to have some clear advantage over the other two for such a measurement, or are the results going to be barely noticeable?)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 09:18:19 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 30, 2021, 11:15:18 amAnd note that you could almost buy a Rigolanda Micsig for the price of a Siglent.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 09:30:23 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 30, 2021, 09:18:19 pmAnd a SDS2kX Plus would be a better instrument than both of them put together !Get one and you'll see.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 09:53:52 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on March 30, 2021, 08:44:48 pm1mV P-P, 138uV AC RMS signal fed into scope (just an AWG signal that resembles superficially something you might see on the switcher output):Keysight MSOX3104T with 20MHz bandlimit (50Ohm, so lower noise than with 1Meg input) is a good approximation of MSO5000. It has a bit lower noise but has same software magnified 5mV/div for 1mv/div. So MSO5000 would be like this, and slightly worse..Note errors in measurements in Keysight. Which otherwise has excellent measurement implementation.And Keysight couldn't get stable trigger. Snapshots were single, manual force triggered.And a Micsig STO1104E ... Real 1mV/div, less than 65 uV AC RMS noise (20 MHz bandlimited). Triggering and all...And on a scope with real 500uV/div it would be even better than on Micsig. Trust me on that. I tried. It is amazing how clean it looked.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 10:02:59 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 30, 2021, 09:18:19 pmFor people that need nothing advanced and are OK with Micsig being very simple but portable, and MSO5000 not very good for low level analog, that might be an option.SDS2000X+ is next level up, analog performance wise, and capability wise..Of course not everybody needs that, most people will be happy with DS1054Z or Micsig STO1104 because they only use some capabilites and not doing anything that needs more advanced stuff.Really all of those scopes are good choice in their price range. But they do go in different price range for a reason.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 09:38:26 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 30, 2021, 09:30:23 pmI wonder on what argument you claim that ?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 02:32:13 pm
content: Do this with these Rigol + Migsig together. Alone they can not, not even close and together if you have purchased both because can get with same price as one Siglent.10kHz sweep and measurement dynamic inside single sweep roughly 100dB. Just ONE small tiny and easy example.This is just as easy bisquit what do not need even any limits knocking.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 03:06:57 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on March 31, 2021, 02:32:13 pmRigol has bode plot all by itself:https://int.rigol.com/products/oscillosopes/mso5000.html

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 07:06:57 pm
content: By the look of it, it is a crystal measurement...Quite usable one too..Rigols BodeWave is quite a simple implementation, and wouldn't do well on this task...Not that it isn't possible to do better, just Rigol never bothered to make it better..

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 07:25:07 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on March 31, 2021, 02:32:13 pmZooming out is much more useful feature. But the Siglent can't do that very basic operation. The Anritsu network analyser I bought for $400 OTOH can also tell me the equivalent circuit parameters to actually model the crystal. The $100-ish NanoVNA can also be used to measure crystals.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 08:14:26 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 31, 2021, 07:25:07 pmAre you serious?Again with this... You have problems.. Really...You cannot go more than 2 weeks without "I need zoom out, please let me have zoom out... Seriously, man just one zoom out please.. I need it.."And no, it is marginally useful thing very few use on daily basis.And whats up with " Well, peasants should buy VNA if they want to measure something"...There is need for good frequency resolution in FRA apart from crystals. Crystal is just used to to show good resolution and dynamic range...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 08:40:50 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on March 31, 2021, 08:14:26 pmJust like rf-loop can't go without a day of 'history' and 'FRA'... just providing balance. Fix your sarcasm detector; it is brokenQuoteIf you need to measure frequency responses then buy the NanoVNA. Much more useful than FRA on an oscilloscope. Goes from 10kHz to 1.5GHz which a large dynamic range for about $100. The NanoVNA really is a nice bit of kit to have.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 09:10:34 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 31, 2021, 08:40:50 pmFRA serves mostly frequency range from almost DC to 10s of MHz. Also it is used on non 50 Ohm systems.NanoVNA is amazing little device that anybody that can afford it should have. Absolutely agree. But serves slightly different purpose than FRA.Same as FFT on scope serves different purpose than real SA...

author: Michael YYZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 10:09:43 pm
content: What is this issue about zooming out all about? My SDS2104X Plus is on its way, so I’m not familiar with it, but the way I understand things is one could capture a waveform over a longer time domain - i.e. zoomed out - and then zoom in to see the details. In other words, the scope captures only what’s on the screen, and not beyond. What’s the problem with this approach?Quote from: 2N3055 on March 31, 2021, 08:14:26 pm

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 10:42:26 pm
content: Quote from: Michael YYZ on March 31, 2021, 10:09:43 pmIt hinders some workflows. Here is the long thread about it (with several people not understanding the problem at all and causing lots of noise nevertheless):https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-zoom-out-quirk/Most scopes can zoom out so there probably is a good reason to do so. Dave tested many oscilloscopes and found out Siglent is the one of the two brands (the other is Lecroy which is more geared towards signal analysis anyway) which can't:Needless to say an oscilloscope which can't zoom out is a hard pass for me. It takes too much fiddling of knobs and restrictions (=slow and inefficient workflow) to make it use the amount of memory I want it to use. I need to be able to set the memory length in order to do certain measurements quickly & efficiently. Been there, done that.However, it if perfectly fine if it doesn't bother you. Everyone has different priorities where it comes to oscilloscope features.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 10:59:33 pm
content: Quote from: Michael YYZ on March 31, 2021, 10:09:43 pmScope capturestime intervalthat issame as screen time interval. So 10 ms/DIV gives 100 ms worth of data. Screen is WISIWIG "map" to your FULL acquired buffer.If you set a scope to 100MS, you will get 100E6 points in that interval. Screen will do it's best make a visible representation of that FULL time scale. On such an acquired buffer, you can now use zoom to show magnified portion of that buffer, with secondary timebase, or you can just change timebase and horizontal position and look around.So it is something that is very important to Nico (he refuses to use zoom mode because he has his reasons), but not really a problem to most of other people... I simply use zoom mode and consider it better, easier and more intuitive to work. And he keeps repeating it is easier and less button fiddling, despite being proven that is not true. At one point we literally counted steps and clicks and proved his way is more work and setup. But he keeps broadcasting his alternate reality..Anyways, from what you wrote, I don't think you will have any problem using scope without "Nico's special".

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 11:12:41 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on March 31, 2021, 10:59:33 pmNo you didn't! It is clear you work on completely different measurement tasks compared to me. That is totally fine. Again, respect other people's priorities! Bashing or even crusading against (yes, you got to that point!) other people's opinions just reflects badly onto yourself. You can't even let a tongue in cheek comment go -my response to rf-loop bringing up FRA for the umpteenth time while it is not even the subject-. Just let it rest.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 11:37:39 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 31, 2021, 10:42:26 pmI hinders your some of your workflows... Thanks for sharing.. For 3432nd time..And other statement and Dave's video are incorrect. He keeps repeating Keysight captures outside screen, when it is proven thing, documented by Keysight, it ain't so.If anything, Keysight Megazoom scopes are so praised because of brutal auto control and no user settings whatsoever, because it allows for such speeds.Fact that Keysight uses many tricks ( a separate Single acquisition in full length after you press Stop to fake full buffer capture) should not confuse anybody.Other parts of that video are not Dave's best work, he wanted to capitalize on controversy and inflammatory note on forum discussion. He lives by making videos.It makes sense for him to exploit such themes. His research was, well, non existent, using Keysight as example. He simply partially took sides, and moved on.Siglent scopes (Siglent is OEM for simpler LeCroy lines) areinspiredby LeCroy concept. They took same approach.LeCroy are pure digital scopes. They dont pretend to be CRT emulation, like Keysight. And you might like it or not. Or maybe understand it or not? I don't know.I personally like, respect and use both concepts.. Tool for the job.And as much I support your freedom to use instruments you bought with your money any way you want, stating that some instrument is fundamentally flawed because you can not use some arcane workflow thatyoulike because youdon't wantto use zoom for pretty much highly personal reasons, is simply a buffoonery. It is grandiose overblowing out of proportion of something that is adifferenceandartificially engineeringarcane scenarios that make it look like adefectorseriousproblem. Itisn't. Not in any universe. Except your's.If you were to point out to every beginner, the fact that there adifferenttypes of scopes, and that some scopes can do this and some can do this, I would never replied to you on any of these postings.But you literallydemonizeLecroy, Siglent, and any other manufacturer (like Picoscope) that uses that same architecture,proclaiming it is stupid, useless, failed, unusable, something you would never buy, how bad it is. And in meantime, millions of happy users worldwide, create most fantastic products with those, send people to the space etc. People working on stuff beyond your dreams are not only capable of doing great things with those, but are actually full of praise.So excuse me if I find your parroting of hate to something that is different from what you think it should be, quite tiresome.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 11:55:11 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 31, 2021, 11:12:41 pmYes we did, Someone and myself did some time ago. But you obviously didn't catch that for some reason.Go back and count and let me know to how many people I respond like this. I 'll give you a hint, i had quite a few words with Rf-loop at beginning. And more heated than with you.Since then I learned he has trouble expressing himself in English, so sometimes he comes off harsh even without that intention. Also, very experienced old school engineer..Like you and me, he likes repeating stuff he thinks is important. Also he is quite an expert in FRA related matters, so yeah, he likes talking about that..I know.. But it is always to the point.He is also very critical of Siglent when he think they deserve it and has pointed out many things he found suboptimal, publicly and without pulling punches.So I learned to respect the hell out of him.And also go back a count how many times I called you an excellent engineer, smart and how many times I agreed with you and stated I learned something from you...So no, it's not black and white.. We disagree.. That's life, to be honest, I would rather argue with you than speak with people without any will and stance of their own.This way I always learn something, be it technology, human nature or whatever..On that note, stay safe and healthy, so we can argue until old age...Sinisa

author: Michael YYZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 03:09:32 am
content: I get the point about the zoom out feature, or lack thereof for Siglent, but I don’t understand a never-ending debate on a topic which appears relatively minor.I am an electronics hobbyist. I am also an engineer and have a PhD degree, but in a different field. I’ve done an enormous amount of research on current oscilloscope models and eventually I closed in on the Siglent for offering one of the best performance vs. price ratio available.Like for any other devices, the designers of a scope have to make decisions, compromises and accept trade offs for the design decisions that they make. The resulting features or lack of them may work perfectly fine for some and not at all for others.I had watched Dave’s video and had read tens and tens of pages of forums and reviews before I decided to get the Siglent. I believe I understand the no-zoom-out characteristic of this scope, which I would not call it “a flaw”. It should, I reckon, work perfectly fine for me.The good thing is we live in a world where we’ve got choice. Lots of it! That’s why comparison threads like this exist. They help us decide, and learning from others’ expertise is a tremendous support. But one should simply point out one’s likes and dislikes, and then move on. We should not become a mob of fanbois and hategals. It’s perfectly understandable that some characteristics of Siglent scopes may not work for some. It is good and very appreciated to be told why, so we’ve got complete information. But that’s it, there’s absolutely no reason to keep pounding sand on this topic relentlessly. If one’s happy with Siglent, go and have fun with it. If you don’t like it, stop bickering and go and use another type. In the meantime, let’s help each other!I surely am looking forward to enjoying mine!...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 04:08:23 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 31, 2021, 07:25:07 pmYep. If I count the number of Bode plots I've done in my life vs. the number of times I've zoomed out on captured data, the zoom wins.Siglents don't do that most basic thing.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 06:14:14 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 01, 2021, 04:08:23 amWell, as I said, that is more of a testament of your (wrong?) scoping technique and the fact that you don't do anything that would need FRA.That excludes all kinds of audio filters, tone controls, audio crossovers, active and passive, control loops that include anything that works on negative feedback principle (be it PID controllers, power supplies) etc etc... Also any circuit that uses opamps or any kind of amplifier that you would want to check gain/phase for any reason (stability or simply to verify specs..). You can also check IF parts of the radios (455kHz and 10,7MHz), check filters etc... Test small signal and audio transformers characteristics...It can also be used to test CMRR and PSRR (with adequate accessories). List is huge..There is no scenario where those are less important than ability to set capture length by side effect of setting buffer sizes manually because there are people that like that instead of what says in a manual..

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 06:21:46 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on April 01, 2021, 06:14:14 amI'mholding it wrong?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 06:33:06 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 01, 2021, 06:21:46 am

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 07:04:18 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 31, 2021, 03:06:57 pmImpressive!The vertical grid is evenly spaced, isn't it? How comes that we get 5 dB/div in the bottom row, then 4 dB /div above and finally 3 dB/div around zero? Generally, numbering on both amplitude and phase axes is all over the place.Doesn't look very professional, does it?RF-Loop showed an example with narrow frequency span and a dynamic range of 100 dB. Do you really think that a screenshot with severely flawed axis numbering, showing a dynamic range of just about 25 dB will excite anyone but the Rigol fanbois?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 07:18:04 am
content: Quote from: Performa01 on April 01, 2021, 07:04:18 amIf I had to guess I'd say the numbers have fractions and they're using a round() function to display them.I don't own one but maybe somebody who does can confirm if the cursor measurements show a better value.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 07:24:03 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on March 30, 2021, 09:53:52 pmSince the TO considered an SDS2000X+, here is the corresponding noise demonstration, see attached screenshots.ARB Signal 1 mVpp, 120 µV AC-RMS, same timebase as yours: 20 µs/div. We don't even need 500 µV/div...Signal at 1 mV/div and 20 MHz BW limit can be triggered and easily stands out of the noise.Measurements aren't too far off (especially considering the signal is only about 1 division high) : 1.25 mVpp, 131 µV AC-RMS.SDS2354X+ Sig BW20M.pngBase noise at full bandwidth (~580 MHz) is nearly as low as on your Micsig with 20 M bandwidth limit: 77 µV AC-RMS.SDS2354X+ Noise BW500MWith 20 MHz bandwidth limit, the noise drops down to <27 µV AC-RMS.SDS2354X+ Noise BW20M

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 07:25:16 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on March 31, 2021, 11:37:39 pmGeez...Let's not count the number of times you brought up the R&S scopes not being able to search on digital decoding. It is likely you brought that up more often than I brought up zooming out. To me search is not a very important feature (I use the trigger setup to filter unwanted messages which then also makes a search futile because the search options usually aren't more elaborate than the trigger settings) but I'm not going to crusade or ridicule you about it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 07:54:30 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on April 01, 2021, 06:14:14 amPeople for which such measurements are important usually have a VNA and LCR meter. FRA gets you a crude amplitude / phase graph which you can also get from sweeping a function generator. Add some math and you can use the cursors to read magnitude in dB(m/V/uV) and phase if you like. FRA is nice but it runs out of steam quickly. For example if you want to know impedances, Q factor, equivalent component values (RL / RC), etc then a VNA or LCR meter becomes a better choice quickly.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 08:26:59 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 01, 2021, 07:25:16 amAgain, to you, it is not, because you download stuff to PC and search there.I'm sorry but, in practice, search is more important than manual buffer control ..And people are usually genuinely surprised 8000 € scope doesn't have it.Other, higher end, R&S scopes have it. Keysight 3000/4000/60000 have it, despite having two orders of magnitude less memory.And I use it all the time. Because I use combination of triggers and search to travel quickly through captures..Itislike second set of trigger like filter on top of basic trigger. And if you have more than 10-20 packets you cannot really find much by visually looking at one by one. You need some search support.So it is either:1. You capture, put in USB stick, save decode to stick, eject stick, put it in PC, open file in your favorite coma delimited file editor (Excel?), then search there. Here you either find what you need or have to repeat all of it to capture again with different settings.2. You capture something, quickly search through it with a scope and reacquire differently if needed. When you're satisfied you have data you want(need), than you can save to stick and open it on PC for further analysis. Or not if you already verified what you needed.I prefer 2nd option. Many others do too. For those knowing that scope cannot do this is probably important.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 08:46:16 am
content: The one time (ONE TIME) I have exported decoded packets to Excel it was about thousands of packets spanning over one hour in time where one packet went wrong for an unknown reason (and I didn't had a way to add an error detection/reporting to the firmware). So where do you even search for? At some point getting data into a PC is just more convenient for various reasons. You can delete the uninteresting data from the set, add annotations, filter (grep), plot a graph, etc. Beyond that I never ever had the need to search for a packet. The main reason is that I use different, more efficient ways/tools (like a CAN analyser, specific events on other signals or integrated protocol error detection in firmware for example) for tasks that otherwise might need searching for particular packets. I do highly value the ability of a DSO to capture a lot of packets just in case anything else fails (last resort).BTW it is interesting to see your reasoning for finding search important is exactly the same for me finding zooming-out is important.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 09:20:48 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 01, 2021, 07:54:30 amWell made FRA gives you nice graphs with lots of control. And also nice data tables to calculate and/or plot something later. And much more control than using sweep generator, that will not show you phase, or scale or frequencies. And FRA is easier to setup, has cursor support, vertical and horizontal scaling and type of plot and units. No need to reinvent the wheel, math is already there.I agree that well equipped lab should have VNA and LCR meter. Ideally real impedance analyser..But FRA is not impedance analyzer, nor LCR meter or VNA. It is gain/phase response analyser, and one that fills gap from almost DC to vhere VNA starts to operate. And for input/output impedances different from 50Ohm...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 09:30:08 am
content: Well, my Anritsu network analyser works from 10Hz and has switcheable 1MOhm / 50 Ohm inputs so it isn't limited to 50 Ohm and 10Hz is very near DC.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 09:33:52 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 01, 2021, 09:30:08 amYes that is very good. What model exactly is that?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 09:35:24 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on April 01, 2021, 09:33:52 amMS4630B

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 03:21:13 pm
content: 2N3055 & nctnico,>pauseIf it makes you guys each and both feel any better, your debates are fairly entertaining and definitely educational. Many of us have watched lots of rounds in this mostly good natured TE boxing match, and each time you guys get into it a few more insights about TE, electricity, analog/digital, and workflow becomes attainable - at least in my case. So, just wanted to say thanks for sharing your knowledge and passion. You guys both help make this a very educational place.>end pause

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 03:58:52 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 01, 2021, 04:08:23 amThe Tek DPO3054 to my right on my bench has a zoom feature that I use literally all the time. It's a vital feature of an oscilloscope and I'm honestly surprised that the Siglent doesn't have zoom.Given that 99% of my work is digital design, I don't need a Bode plot feature.Everyone's uses are different, of course.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 04:22:41 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on April 01, 2021, 03:58:52 pmI'm sure we have communication problem here. Siglent SDS2000X+haszoom. It is implemented very similar to the Tek DPO3054, withadditional benefitof touch screen with gestures to move viewport around. If I remember correctly, you can also zoomvertically.Here we are ad nauseam discussing something that unfortunately got called "zoom out" but in fact is apracticeto use manually set long buffer toforcescope to capture long buffer (say 100 ms), while you're looking at signal with short timebase (say 500 ns/div) to deliberatelyavoiduse of zoom. And if you stop capture, since you did, in fact, capture very long capture, you can (by changing timebase button)"zoom out"and move around with horizontal position button.Nico swears by it and claims it is faster and easier to use than the other way around, by using zoom mode and have dual time base at the same time on screen and navigate that way. I disagree withhim withmy whole heart (as you can see)Hope that explains it..Regards,

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 05:26:47 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on April 01, 2021, 03:21:13 pmYep, at times veritable Monty Python.. Glad you like it...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 06:01:16 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on April 01, 2021, 04:22:41 pmDoesn't matter what you call it, one name is as good as another. Fact it: Siglents don't zoom out.Other 'scopes do zoom out and it's a useful, logical, natural way to work.Siglents have no plausible reason for not doing it. It's a design choice. Abaddesign choice.Quote from: 2N3055 on April 01, 2021, 04:22:41 pma) The buffer is often bigger then the screen in AUTO mode but Siglents don't even fill it when it is. They only show what was on screen.b) Siglents don't obey youeven when you manually set the buffer size. See the image below, 200M points configured, 10.0 (ten point zero!) points captured.Quote from: Fungus on April 01, 2021, 07:18:04 amAnd ... is it any sillier than having 10.0 points of memory? eg. Can Siglents capture 10.2 points of memory?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 06:07:18 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 01, 2021, 06:01:16 pmLike I said, Monty Python.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 06:15:54 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on April 01, 2021, 06:07:18 pmI'll be here all week.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 06:19:37 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 01, 2021, 06:15:54 pmOf course you will, like a proper circus should!!

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 06:58:49 pm
content: Presumably it would cost oscilloscope manufacturers too much to offer a price competitive oscilloscope that enables users to have both zoom in and zoom out? And good search/navigate?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 07:29:18 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on April 01, 2021, 06:58:49 pmZoom in/out is basically the same function. So from a functional point of view it only depends on the UI. Search OTOH does take some effort because this involves analysing the acquired data either through software or using part of the trigger system. Search is not a high-end scope feature BTW. The sub $500 GW Instek GDS1054B has search for example.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 07:35:03 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 01, 2021, 07:29:18 pmSub $300 in the US with EEVBLOG discount at tequipment

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 07:36:02 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on April 01, 2021, 06:58:49 pmThe Rigol DS1054Z had zoom in and out and that's a cheap 'scope. $300 Insteks can do it as well. Dave's video shows a long list of scopes that do it, even an Owon and a Uni-T.So, no, price hasnothingto do with it.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 09:39:44 pm
content: Some very simple examples of zooming out in a capture:Manuallyinitiated capture at full mem depth SDS5000X:Engage Zoom mode with a single press of Zoom or timebase:Zoom out using timebase:And further:Siglent's can't zoom out......yeah right !Same principles work for all their X/X Plus and X-E/U model DSO's.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 10:05:41 pm
content: @tautech: you are not zooming out from the original capture, you are capturing, zooming in then out

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 10:14:35 pm
content: Quote from: TK on April 01, 2021, 10:05:41 pmServes exactly the same purpose......it's still a capture.Like I said it's a very simple example and manually instigated whereas if you were serious about waveform analysis you might single shot to some particular trigger condition in a slow timebase and then use the real power of a DSO...zooming in !

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 11:26:41 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 01, 2021, 07:36:02 pmok, over simplified on the terminologyCapture just what's on the screen and adjust the time base to show more detail vs...... ?Fungus, since you are a good distiller of info (and have a good sense of humor), maybe you can propose names for the two alternatives that have been debated.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 11:28:26 pm
content: Quote from: TK on April 01, 2021, 10:05:41 pmAn example of how we use similar words to discuss the same stuff over and over but the terminology of the sender gets confused by the receiver and then we have nearly half the debate over misunderstandings vs. intended content.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 11:56:54 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on April 01, 2021, 11:26:41 pmIt's true that it's not just zooming. On other 'scopes you can move the display left and right and more signal will scroll into view as you do it. On a Siglent you just get blackness.Any name needs to take that into account, too.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 02:40:02 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 01, 2021, 07:36:02 pmYes, purely at face valuezoom(in or out) in the narrowest sense is not inhibited by price. However, when we zoom out (metaphorically haha) the issue under discussion might well be somewhat cost (of NRE and manufacturing) driven as we see that one of the brands held up as an example of how to approach the workflow is Agilent/Keysight - and it’s generally believed that they invested early on in the development of ASICs that enabled some extra spiffy performance.So, once we come up with some naming conventions that represent the alternatives being discussed we might see that one of the alternatives does in fact cost more (or did at the time). Or, once we run this to ground (50/50 on that since this debate has been going in various forms for awhile) we might find that with current technology cost (and therefore price) is not a driver. Although even if hw NRE has come down, sw NRE probably hasn’t. And if it turns out economics is not a driver, why wouldn’t scope manufacturers provide functionality that supports both approaches (whatever we call them)?Net, net: it might be too early to say price hasnothingto do with the discussion on the table.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 06:58:00 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 01, 2021, 11:56:54 pmNo that is not true. On all scopes you get same 100ms of capture, and can change what you see on the screen with timebase and horizontal position.Difference is that for initial capture you need to use different procedure.Which have pros and cons.Those that capture fixed buffer size will have very slow update rate. Even if you look at nanoseconds on the screen, trigger rate will be slow and be dependent on buffer size and current sample rate. That might be whatever it is based on memory size, timebase, number of channels used etc. and it will change all the time. If youdon't needallthat dataall the time, you will need tokeep managing memory size manually all the time.Or set it to auto, which will make it work like Siglent does.Those things are reasons why some hate some Tektronix scopes so much. With scopes that do auto memory management you just use scope, no need to think about these things too.OTOH it will give you more data than you saw on screen originally, which might be useful or not, depending how you work with scope (how deliberate and planned your work is, or you just twiddle with knobs until you manage to see something of interest. It will also depend on whether your work is routine or you are measuring something first time and have no clue what to expect).Those that acquire only amount of data that fits to time span on the screen (which is what you have with CRT analog scopes), will never have extraneous data to process (acquire, move, ,measure or do math with it) and that will enable scope to be fast and responsive. Also there are no hidden rules. WYSIWYG, and if you need longer capture, just set it for that. It is that simple, really. But there are moments where you need/want to look at one shorter period of whole waveform but still capture the lot. Like, for instance, some startup transient inside startup sequence, that once in a while will have a glitch on one particular time. With this scope, to do this you simply use zoom function to achieve dual timebase, in one (main) window you still have whole long capture, and in zoom window you look at "magnified portion" at fast timebase. That is for both stopped and running scope. Some people say "that iswastingmy screen...thatsbaaad..", some people say "that isawesome, Ican see what I'm doing, that is so good.."But once you got your 100 ms worth of data in the scope, with both you can "zoom in and out" with timebase and move left and right with horizontal position knob.And if you set your "manual memory scope" to anything less that 100 Mpts, and have a high sampling rate scope you will also get "just get blackness" outside what you captured..In fact, that would make scope very unresponsive for general work, so people will keep it somewhere shorter. So scope will start dropping sample rate very quickly and alias and loos information.Auto mode was invented to solve this problem.Seriously, I'm contemplating making a cartoon about this....

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 02:17:37 pm
content: I'm just a hobbyist. I'm just a newbie here. I even don't have any scope yet.But, while looking at different threads to get information about what could I buy, I have found most have one thing in common: Siglent-liking people bullying other people that points weak features in Siglent devices.Guys, you don't need to do this and it's even counter productive. Siglent products look nice by themselves and is up to us to decide if we want to own one or not.I don't even know how this zoom out thing has to be called, but after watching Dave's video (12:23) I call it Siglent-scopes-laugh-at-your-face-when-you-set-memory-depth-manually-while-other-brands-don'tPlease note I'm not even considering if this is technically useful/right or not. It doesn't matter right now. What matters is other brands do it. Cheaper scopes do it. Again it's up to us prospective buyers to decide what we are going to purchase after knowing it.Would that stop me considering Siglent products? No, if I think they are still worth the money. But it's good to know as much as possible before buying. It's specially good to know about the weak points. The strong points mostly are already touted by the brands themselves.So Siglent decided to put a manual memory depth setting but anyway the scope sets it automatically no matter what you choose? Good to know, that's information that can be, more or less, useful, and nctnico and fungus are helpful letting know about it. Siglent people could do the same by just pointing that increasing memory depth can have a big impact in wfms which is a bad thing too. Then us poor ignorant bastards would have being taught something so we could make our own decision.Instead we get thread after thread hijacked by arguments spiced with laughs, ad hominem attacks, incivic behaviour, etc, which is neither nice nor informative.nctnico and fungus (and any other that could express the same opinion) have perfect right to do so. Should Siglent be worried about that, they could make some changes. They decided to give "low priority" to it? Be it, but then they must take any criticism. We all know what "low priority" means and we all know all brands do the same sometimes. Still we have to choose among what's available.When I registered in this forum, I was thinking it was as grassroots as a forum can be. Now it does look more like a hijacked forum becoming a Siglent astroturfing effort. At the very least, all this bullying looks very much the same that an apple fanboy flame war. I myself was an apple fanboy in the 1990s so I can identify the trend just by the BS smell.Siglent not taking some user feedback into account could or could not make me stop considering their products, but there's no amount of bold text nor laughing smiles nor bullying nor ad hominem attacks that could made me change what I think after seeing somebody being assured that connecting SLA1016 to his SDS1104X-E wouldn't have any performance penalty at all, then getting this report from a user:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg3528422/#msg3528422Now, in this same thread, even not having any scope yet, I was quite suspicious about the screenshots posted, then TK confirmed what I was thinking.Again: guys, this is counter-productive.I don't think this argument is being civil so I'm getting out right now.Have a nice day

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 02:37:20 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on April 02, 2021, 02:17:37 pmYou'd be even madder at them if you'd been here when they were constantly bashing the Rigol DS1054Z in every single thread where it was ever mentioned.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 05:54:19 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on April 02, 2021, 02:17:37 pmHi tatel,Sorry for the less than great first month but if you give this place a little more time you will see that your initial sample and interpretation might not have been truly representative. The Test Equipment forum is an excellent forum and EEVblog is a great site.Since you don't seem to mind a long post (me too) here is a quick story to set the stage.In one of the Star Trek adventures the crew made a landing on Earth maybe in the 1980s or so while their ship was having technical difficulties and their systems were mostly down. So at one point (I think it was) Scotty and the captain are reduced to using a regular (to them ancient) Mac. At first they try to issue some voice commands but at the time the computer has no way to accept voice input; one of the Trek guys grabs a wired mouse thinking it might be a microphone and speaks into it. The person who owned the computer looks at Scotty and the captain like "Who are these guys? They don't know bupkis about technology." Pretty quickly though the Mac owner realizes he's dealing with some pretty good engineering talent. At another point in the movie realizing how they appear out of sorts one of the Trek guys says to another incredulous 1980s Earthling,"Well, you're not really catching us at our best."Or something like that. I'm not a big Star Trek fan but those scenes and that line always stuck with me.Turns out you didn't catch this forum at it's best. We've all seen other web sites where personalities beat on each other; it's not the case here; people here do have personalities but to a very high extent it's a super respectful and friendly place. Dave set a culture of friendly with an occasional touch of humor and it's the norm, so if a particular thread seems off the rails or is not your cup of tea, just find another thread on the same topic and it will probably be more to your liking. There is a lot of depth and breadth here and it's generally easy to find; the search feature is pretty good. And there is SO MUCH good content here you can often find it fastest by adding your search terms plus EEV and Google will help you find it.Overall, I don't think you will find any web site much less a test equipment forum anywhere that has more knowledgeable and helpful and friendly people - but if you do, people here will be happy to hear about it because hardly anyone here has just one axe to grind whether it's a particular product or brand or technology or any one web site. Many of the contributors here have excellent web sites and/or make great youtube videos, etc. What people have around here is a wide range of experience (from relatively little to a ton) across a lot of technologies and use cases, and what you are seeing is a passion for "figuring out" (learning and teaching) and sharing in general.What you happened to come across was more like some commercials in between good TV shows. There are some topics that come up from time to time, and how to manage data capture with logic analyzer functionality built into oscilloscopes happens to bring out one of our oldest running commercials. I've been here almost 8 years and it's a commercial that has evolved and keeps running but it's just a sliver of what's on TV here. In the process it might look like people selling their brand but it's really not. Ok, well maybe one or two but even the sales people here are knowledgeable, helpful, and always friendly. Mostly, people here ebb and flow in generally focused but sometimes wide ranging discussions in search of ever better tools, and an increased understanding of electricity including everything analog or digital, or mixed-use. How to capture, measure, visualize, and manage signals that are comprised of amplitude, frequency, phase and other attributes is not easy to describe in the few words of a text post and it can get more challenging when you throw in how to do it for ever lower prices.Currently Siglent gets held up as a reference point for good and/or bad because over the last couple years or so they have come from being in the running to maybe being in the lead on price/performance for various product categories of interest. A few years ago Rigol was consistently the reference point, and they are still in the mix, of course - along with all the others whether you are talking about price or performance or functionality, or whatever the criteria. I think relatively few people here will buy or recommend a product only because of the logo.In any event you won't find more people willing to discuss more aspects of oscilloscopes (and other test equipment) across all brands and models anywhere on the planet, I think. And what that gives users here is the opportunity to frame any question or any thought and get a reply from interested, passionate, and often highly experienced people. And sometimes you get responses from not so experienced people, or people who are just not fully informed. But even then someone usually jumps in to try to add helpfully clarifying info to put things back on track. And sometimes the replies are not right or wrong, they are just opinions. But thankfully, there really is very little bullying going on here. You will get some strong opinions but bullying is pretty rare, very rare here. What might appear as bullying is people trying hard with text to represent complex technology with subtle UI issues, and sometimes (often?) people are writing/reading in English which is not their primary language. So, sometimes it's subtle stuff that gets people tangled up.In any event, hope you stick around and feel free to talk about your questions, answers, observations, interests, or whatever you think is relevant.

author: bestel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 10:37:53 pm
content: This thread is really interesting, because I think this price range concern a lot of people.So maybe we can try to sum up the good/bad for all scopes?Rigol 5074 :+ 1x8GSa/s, 2x4GSa/s, 4x2GSa/s+ Lot of memory (4x50Mpts)+ Advanced math+ AWG 2x25 MHz in option (50/Hi-Z = 2.5Vpp/5Vpp)+ Advanced decoding options+ 4 controls knobs- Bad input noise (compared to the others)- Only real 4mV/div sensitivity- Low res bode plotKeysight DSOX1204G+ Hardware decoding (fast update rate)+ AWG 20 MHz (50ohm/Hi-Z = 9Vpp/12Vpp)+ High res bode plot ? (after firmware update)+ Responsive & easy to use (UI, UX, ...)- Price range- Lack of memory (4x1Mpts)- 64k FFTSiglent SDS2104X Plus+ 10" touch screen+ Lot of memory (4x100Mpts)+ AWG 1x50 MHz in option (50/Hi-Z = 3Vpp/6Vpp)+ High res bode plot+ real 500µV/div+ 2Mpts FFT- No "zoom out" hahaha (we should call it "masked" or "forced" acquisition)- No internal multi-meter and frequency counter? (did not see in datasheet)Tell me if you think I loosing a point somewhere.It seems that the Siglent is the best option for "analog works", and rigol best option for "digital works".Keysight lacks in deep memory, but provide a good integrated AWG voltage output swing, and a solid Megazoom IV experience.In Europe :- Rigol 5074 4x70Mhz + Bundle MSO5000-BND = +/- 1100€ (limited time offer)- Keysight DSOX1204G 4x70Mhz = +/- 1500€ (normal price)- Siglent SDS2104X Plus 4x100Mhz + AWG = +/- 1700€ (normal price)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 10:47:39 pm
content: SDS2000X Plus HW frequency counter is always ON at top right of display plus several other frequency related measurements can be selected from the Measurements menu.Up until March 31 most options including AWG were free in a sales promotion that has now expired however if you shop around there will still be units available with the free options package.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 01:06:52 am
content: Quote from: bestel on April 12, 2021, 10:37:53 pmBTW this is wrong.€1,199https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/Plus AWG @ USD220

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 01:17:13 am
content: Quote from: tautech on April 13, 2021, 01:06:52 amYes. And unfortunately plus 19~25% VAT, depending where in Europe you buy the equipment (as an end user that is -- if you buy as a business, you'll get the VAT refunded). @bestel specified the prices including VAT. We should compare "apples with apples".

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 05:16:13 am
content: Quote from: bestel on April 12, 2021, 10:37:53 pmWhere ever I try look I can not find information about its real frequency resolution.Example: If select 10MHz center and span is 500Hz. (Start 9.999750 MHz and stop 10.000250 MHz)Question: What is maximum data points exactly in this case? Just in model DSOX1204G.In Siglent 2000XPlus model this is 500pts.(It responds 22 933 747 pts/decade with this said 10MHz case.If do same 500Hz span sweep with 100MHz center it responds 229 337 475 pts/decade.Why I say these numbers, just because some oscilloscopes data sheet list only points/decade)In all cases Siglent maximum is 500pts, up to full span what is 10Hz - 50MHz with internal generator and up to 120MHz with external generator. Simultaneously for 3 DUT outputs.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 06:48:06 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on April 13, 2021, 05:16:13 amUser manual says:Points per decade  > Setup > Pts Per Decade (10, 20, 30, 40, 50)

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 07:13:29 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on April 13, 2021, 06:48:06 ambut there was told that after some FW update it is high resolution (perhaps)50/decadeIf do sweep from 10.0000MHz to 10.0005MHz (500Hz)When do sweep with Siglent, 100000pts/decade it give just 4 points over this span as we know..

author: bestel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 07:27:48 am
content: I think (I don't have this scope) this is wrong now, because it changed after a firmware update.Now you don't set "points per decade", but "points", and you can set up to 1000 points.And for tautech, This price tag is silly, we don't even know if it's with or without VAT.But, OK, let's click on the "buy" option.Now I have a list of dealer, I select "distrame" because I'm french and this is the only one for France, and guess what? I can't find this scope on distrame. They only have one reference : the SDS1000X-E. Wow, it's rock solidJokes apart, all my price tag come from here :https://www.polytech-oscilloscopes.com/Of course it's just from a "French or European buyer" point of view.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 07:38:00 am
content: Quote from: bestel on April 13, 2021, 07:27:48 amTaxes are regional and one country may be much better than another so all Siglent websites advertise the RRP without taxes.France has 3 Siglent agents and they are all listed here:https://www.siglenteu.com/how-to-buy/Many in the EU source from Batronix whom I believe has an excellent reputation.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 07:44:50 am
content: Quote from: bestel on April 13, 2021, 07:27:48 amVideo is about KS 4k models. Bit different level scope.But it was now talking about Keysight DSOX1204G not 4000 series. There IS high resolution FRA, this is well known. But I like to know what is real truth with Keysight DSOX1204G !

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 07:51:51 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on April 13, 2021, 07:44:50 amStill use of thisbit different level scopedisplayed only a single FRA trace whereas a $499 SDS1104X-E can show 3 traces each with a phase result from different stages of a filter or DUT.....but of course I don't need to explain that to you.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1x04x-e-bodeplot-ii-(sfra)-features-and-testing-(coming)/

author: bestel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 07:54:38 am
content: Quote from: bestel on April 13, 2021, 07:27:48 amMmmmmh, I though it was a "global" firmware update, I think we need someone who have this scope.I found this in the firmware 1.20 release note :QuoteSource :https://www.keysight.com/fr/en/lib/software-detail/instrument-firmware-software/installing-infiniivision-1000-xseries-oscilloscope-firmware-2958151.htmlSo for me, the 1204G is concerned by this update shown in the video.But again, we need to wait someone who did this update to be sure.For the price, it's 1,426.81 with 20% VAT on batronix without AWG.(20% is a fair common VAT)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 07:59:29 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on April 13, 2021, 07:44:50 amThat is correct. On 3000T and 4000 series it is 1000 points, regardless of frequency span.DSOX1204G is not the same. What it is exactly, nobody knows because Keysight is apparently suddenly incompetent to make a proper datasheet, or deliberately obscuring these facts.Or think these are toy scopes and nobody cares anyways..I went and downloaded fresh datasheet from Keysight. It says 1000 points across frequency range. So that settles it.Marketing here is very, very shady, trumpeting "same Megazoom chipset" and users start thinking they get basically the same scope as bigger ones. They don't.Those chipsets are just a part of architecture and can be applied andareapplied differently in 1000, 2000, 3000A, 3000T/4000 and 6000...Many things are scope applications (like FRA), and will differ between price ranges.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 08:01:19 am
content: Quote from: bestel on April 13, 2021, 07:54:38 amThere is no global update. 1000 series are vastly different machines, that run Linux instead Windows Embedded, and have nothing in common with the rest of the range except A/D Meagzoom IV chip itself.

author: bestel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 08:02:11 am
content: Did you read the firmware 1.20 release note?The sweep frequency range is no longer limited to decade values – it can now beset to any frequency within the WaveGen’s limits.The “points per decade” setting has been changed to “total points” for ease of use.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 08:10:09 am
content: Quote from: bestel on April 13, 2021, 08:02:11 amI didn't read release note because I don't own 1000 but 3000T so I don't download firmware for scopes I don't have...But I did go and find new datasheet directly from Keysight that does say 1000 points total across chosen frequency range.So you are correct about 1000 points, and that makes it same as on 3000T/4000.But just to make it clear, firmware is different for all of them. Codebase too.

author: bestel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 08:13:30 am
content: Yes of course, when I say "global update", it was more as a "user concern".For a brand like keysight, when you flag an oscilloscope "megazoom IV" and provide some improvements on high-end, the client can expect the brand to provide a "synchronized" firmware update on the lower end (for the same capabilities of course, apple and apple).Of course in reality, it's far more complex than that.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 08:41:42 am
content: Quote from: bestel on April 13, 2021, 08:13:30 amNot really complicated..They provided full memory and better Bode plot only because they were publicly ridiculed. Original marketing campaign was very pompous ( "Buy real instruments, not toys") and when apart from cool name all the "toys" were better at almost all the specs, they dialed down the "smack" talk, and enabled better specs to save face...They all sell image of premium products and convince users that all they sell is premium products.Which is truth only for their midrange and high end products. Entry level will be even worse in many aspects than same priced products from mainstream manufacturers.And they will react only if company brand image is in question. Which happened here with 1000 series.But, hey, they did the right thing eventually and now people that have that product are better off...

author: bestel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 08:53:26 am
content: I think they just faced a lot of user request, and respond with a firmware update.By the way you can see a lot of comment on Youtube from the "Keysight guys", even if there is only 20k view.For me, that sort of thing mean A LOT about how the brand consider its clients.Of course, it's my opinion and I don't know any Keysight engineer nor am I in relation with them to know the truth.When you're buying a Rigol or a Siglent, you're not buying the same thing.Look at the screen update rate, the responsiveness of the UI, the decode update rate.A lot of thing you will encounter are not in the datasheet.You cannot rely only on it, you need to see the global picture.And this is why this thread is all about, all scopes have pros and cons, and everyone can then decide.For me, there is no a "clear winner" between theses 3 scopes.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 09:08:48 am
content: Quote from: bestel on April 13, 2021, 08:13:30 amMy assumption is that the newer, lower end scopes from Keysight run Linux where the higher end but older models still run on WinCE. Getting functionality across is likely more work than just copying a file (or changing a define) and hit the 'compile' button.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 09:42:18 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 13, 2021, 09:08:48 amYou are correct. While they might be able to port basic numeric and DSP algorithms in C left and right, code is mostly a rewrite, because of application model differences. Fact that FRA (and basic UI of scope) looks very similar to the WinCE scopes is because someone had to make effort to emulate that look in new environment with a new framework.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 10:37:49 am
content: Quote from: bestel on April 13, 2021, 08:53:26 amKeysight do care a lot aboutbrand image with customer. That coincides with showing care for customers, but is not necessarily the same. I met some Keysight people and all of them were very nice and decent people. But corporation is corporation, never forget that.As you nicely put, all 3 are different and have it's pros and cons. For a scope that needs to emulate feel of analog scope, Keysight is best. For everything else is acceptable or subpar. Rigol is OK for low speed digital (4 decodes etc, and for that super low noise and sensitivity is not so important, decent refresh rate). Siglent is very good for analog (to the point that it is in a class of scopes 2-3x more expensive for low level analog), and decent for digital. I also like GUI concept best. To me it's best overall. It has it's specific memory management that can be problem to some... It also have 2 decodes and CAN FD.. So yeah mixed bag..As for your comment about not everything is in datasheets, that is so right. But that also applies to big brands too.For instance, you won't really understand what short memory means until you try to capture startup transient 100 ms long and realize you don't see that 20 MHz burst because of low sample rate. Or decode long sequence of protocol and not being able to see fast interference that confuses device while receiving, because of the same problem. There are many little things that I expected to work certain way on my 3000T that don't..For instance, you cannot create custom masks on the scope, despite it having touch screen. You can either do Automask (you provide good signal and then define area around it), or you have to create custom mask on PC in text editor and load it on USB stick and load it in scope... On a 18000 USD retail scope.. Otoh, AWG editor is really nice... go figure..

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 12:41:04 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on April 13, 2021, 01:06:52 amWith that math the Rigol is only 899 €.https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-MSO5074.html

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 01:21:35 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on April 13, 2021, 10:37:49 amI have designed in a Keysight exclusive semiconductor fab, and know a number of senior Keysight folks (Technical Fellows, VPs, CTO), and can confirm your assessment of the Keysight folks. They are also some of the brightest and most creative technical folks I've ever run across, and will always lend a helping hand to customers we've found. However as you correctly mention, Keysight is a corporation, a public corporation, and must perform financially to survive. Many engineers/scientists often don't see the total business side of things, myself included, and come to conclusions without this consideration.Best,

author: bestel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 02:04:30 pm
content: Of course Keysight is a company, but you know, there is a lot of different way for a company to make profits.They're sharing things, they make a lot of cool videos. I don't think they're forced to do so.They could make the decision to make video like Rigol, scope vs scope, and... Hooo surprise, my scope is the best of the world blablabla. I know Keysight answered, but they did not mention the name of the brand.And yes, I don't like the way Rigol make comparisons.So you see, a company make choices, and these choice meansA LOT.Talking a bit more about the Keysight, I think it's the more underestimated of the 3 here, partially because of it's price range vs capabilities, so many hobbyist will even not consider buying it just because of its datasheet.But, in real life, just the refresh rate can be a real life saver when decoding for example. As far as the responsiveness of the UI after 3 days of debugging.For long term digital acquisition, I will not ever turn on an oscilloscope, I will use a good USB protocol analyzer. That way, I can record very long data, compare multiple runs, and also decode pretty ANY protocols that exist.But I do agree that FFT and bode plot is 2 real things that a scope need to do nowadays. 2 things Rigol seems to not care about, but at the same time, it's also the less expensive of the 3... So it will depend of the needs.Well, that said, it's never an easy choice.By the way, does someone already measured the ENOB of these 3 scopes?

author: bestel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2021, 08:45:39 pm
content: Just a tiny update, as I just bought the Keysight 1204g (I tested it some hours), this is the good information since firmware version 2.10 :Memory depth has been increased to 2 Mpts (worth case is 500us of data (50us/div) at 1GSa/s - 4 channels before drop)Waveform has been increased to 200,000 (not 50,000 anymore)Support for USB keyboardAll decode mode included, with a free license of keysight benchvue (powerfull PC control app, scriptable)Segmented memory : max segments increased to 500, and re-arm time is 1µsHigh-res bode plot are possible, 1000 points max at any start/stop frequenciesAnd during these hours, I liked a lot of things :The scope responsiveness is perfect, all operations are done by hardware so the scope never slow done, this is greatButtons and knobs are perfect to me, no overshootThere is not a lot of menus, and they all make senseYou can do one step of easy math "internally" (+, -, x) , and then reuse this result to do another mathYou can set the trigger internally to the wavegenAnd btw, I didn't expect the external trigger behindProbes are really nice, 4x200MHz even with the stock 70MHz (N2140A)The built-in help is useful (and well translated), like FFT windows explanations (pros / cons)The internal probe check works nice (and all probes came calibrated)High-res mode works really good (see the picture for the bit gain) and clean a lot of noise (less bandwidth)What I disliked :The noise of the rear fan... I sent a message to my reseller we will see... I won't sent back my unit for that, but I hope they will give me the CFM specsNote that you can do only one math at a time, and can't do math + FFT.(but you can do simple math (+, -, x) and then reuse the result to do FFT)I know there is not a lot of review out there, and when there is one it's outdated... So don't hesitate to ask me, I will do my best.If I remove the fan noise (which is not a huge deal - noctua for the win) I'm really amazed!The BenchVue application looks pretty amazing, with log and scriptable UI, I have to test it.If you read the entire thread and still don't know which one to buy... Well like I said before, it's 3 good scopes

author: Steve12366
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 05, 2021, 09:29:15 am
content: Normi, did you get the MSO 5074 in the end ? If so, how is it, and did you do the hack too ?Thanks Steve

author: normi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2021, 10:58:44 pm
content: Quote from: Steve12366 on May 05, 2021, 09:29:15 amYes, got the MSO5074, did the upgrades, have no regrets. Impressive features, and worth the $990. I am just finishing up on the testing of the DIY logic probes, so far so good.Scope had free licenses as part of promotion for decodes, AWG, power analysis, only bandwidth and 200M memory required licensing.Best option to select a scope is to make note of what you will use it for, then make a list of scopes that satisfy this use and are within your budget. If none are within budget then increase budget or eliminate features which may not be important. There is always going to be a better and cheaper scope coming in the future, but that's the nature of technology and if you keep waiting for the next best thing you will never buy anything.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 05:36:50 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 01, 2021, 06:01:16 pmSince nobody seems to have addressed this ...The buffer size setting is for themaximumsize of the capture, not theguaranteedsize of the capture. It defines the point at which the scope will start to reduce the capture sample rate (the actual sampler, I believe, always runs at full speed in order to feed the triggering mechanism, and likely for other things as well).The scope captures either as many points as the maximum sampling rate (which is dependent on architecture and enabled channels) multiplied by the time width of the screen will get you, or the configured buffer size, whichever is smaller.

author: Steve12366
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 09, 2021, 03:20:54 pm
content: Might pick your brains about the hack

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2021, 06:05:07 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on May 06, 2021, 05:36:50 amHe knows. That is exactly how his MicSig behaves in auto. He's just being "provocative" (that is PC for trolling)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2021, 06:16:25 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on May 09, 2021, 06:05:07 pmIn auto mode, sure.But ... on my Micsig I can manually tell it to use all the memoryand it will.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2021, 06:44:14 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 09, 2021, 06:16:25 pmYes we know..

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2021, 08:43:49 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on May 09, 2021, 06:05:07 pmHe might know, but the other readers here might not. That's why it's best to not leave incorrect or misleading statements unaddressed in public forums.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2021, 10:52:17 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 09, 2021, 06:16:25 pmAnd how many key presses are required to exit auto memory mode ?Nowhere in the topic title do I see mention of Micsig.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 01:30:11 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 09, 2021, 06:16:25 pmAnd you can manually tell the Siglent to do the same -- by setting the timebase and memory depth appropriately.Both will accomplish the same thing. All that differs is how you tell them to accomplish it.