DIY PCB STARTUP - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: joergen14
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 12:25:41 am
content: We’re a group of engineering students at SDU University in DemarkRight now, we’re building a DIY PCB machine to make electronics skills more accessible for students. Many universities, including ours, don’t have easy access to PCB equipment, and we think this machine could open up a lot of possibilities for students who want to experiment and build.We’ve created a short survey (about 5 minutes), and your feedback would be incredibly valuable to us as we develop this project.https://eu.jotform.com/form/242832076794061Thank you for all the inspiration we’d love to hear what you think![SDU Engineering Student]

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2024, 05:54:09 pm
content: Hellomost challenging on DIY or small setup is the Vias as that request metallisation of the holes , except if you put rivets or copper nailsOther concern is the base material , as you shall stay in FR4 1.6 mm thickness basic specs , all other FR4 and also RF ''Rogers'' cost hell .A nice process is laser engraving but you can also use your laser to burn paint as a mask and after make a etching , some US universities use laser burning to produce prototype in houseGood luckOS

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2024, 07:16:46 pm
content: I don't want to spoil your student enthusiasm but how do you expect to compete with the PCB fabrication services like JLCPCB or PCBWay (or even Aisler here in the EU)? Did you consider that many places don't have their own PCB making equipment simply because it is not economical to do so? Is your machine going to be able to produce a board with soldermask, silkscreen, metalized vias and more than 2 layers?That aside, why to reinvent the wheel? If you want to manufacture your own PCBs on a small scale beyond the hobby DIY level like tone transfer, then a spray etching tank/machine, UV exposing unit and consumables cost very little and are certainly available even to a Danish university (apropos, greetings to SDU, I used to work at AAU in Esbjerg just across the street from the SDU campus, with many SDU colleagues). You still won't have metalized vias or soldermask unless you invest in additional process but that's true for pretty much any kind of "PCB machine" you are likely to build that would be still relevant for a student.There is no need to invent a "PCB machine" (I guess some kind of CNC engraver/router?) here, IMO and probably very little market among cash strapped students for something like that.Apropos, consider that in many cases the problem isn't the cost of purchasing the equipment but the recurring costs of operating it - e.g. required supervision if to be operated by students, consumables, handling the toxic waste, dealing with toxic dust (in case of using a CNC router) in a way that won't give the occupational safety authorities a heart attack and the operator a hefty fine. This adds up quickly to way more than the original cost of the equipment. E.g. my hackspace here down the street has gotten rid of their PCB production equipment for exactly these reasons, with the argument that it is much easier for everyone involved to order the boards online instead. There is a huge difference between etching or engraving a board at home - and operating (or selling) this equipment in a public space/institution/business where the laws and regulations are strict and the authorities are watching you.

author: jduncan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2024, 07:30:57 pm
content: I'm pretty curious who will answer "No" to this question

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2024, 08:45:37 pm
content: Quote from: jduncan on November 01, 2024, 07:30:57 pmI think what they meant to write was 2 layer PCB, not double sided load PCB.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2024, 10:27:58 am
content: you can do the metalization, the open process works, it just stingy with palladium. you need to add alot more. patents say 10x more. just because its black does not mean its good.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2024, 05:24:00 pm
content: Quote from: joergen14 on October 30, 2024, 12:25:41 amI would encourage you to look at prior efforts in this direction (like Voltera and pdi3d) and see why they have failed or just not caught on.Everyone I know who has dabbled in PCB milling — including with CNC machines made specifically for that purpose — have given up on it because it’s too inconsistent, and lacks what are now basic niceties like solder mask and plated holes. (Yes, you can do those yourself but the effort is enormous.) Never mind multilayer (4+) boards, which we can simply dismiss as “impractical enough to be called impossible” to do yourself.In the past, when commercially made PCBs cost a lot more, DIY PCBs were done by etching, and that’s still a decent approach from a technical standpoint, but the effort is completely disproportionate to the cost of just ordering from JLCPCB, PCBway, Aisler, OSHpark, etc. It just doesn’t make sense. And then you have chemical waste to deal with.So what problem is it you aim to solve? Cost? You will lose on that. Capabilities? You will lose on that even more. Turnaround time? Well… maybe, if you have your process completely perfected. (Professionals just pay through the nose for express service from a local PCB manufacturer if they absolutely must have a board ASAP — as fast as 1 day.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2024, 05:32:21 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on November 01, 2024, 07:16:46 pmIndeed, many universities, corporate prototyping labs, and the likehadthat equipment for years, and got rid of it in recent times because JLCPCB etc is cheaper, easier, and better.At the university department where I work, single-sided PCBs in in-house devices were mostly DIY etched until around 1995, then little by little moved to commercial, and I haven’t seen a DIY etched PCB made after around 2000.Nobody wants to go back to making them themselves, it’s not worth it.

author: jduncan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2024, 05:47:06 pm
content: It seems like you may think assembly is the "secret sauce" that will make this worthwhile.you're not the first to think of turning a 3d printer into a pick and place machine. however, what you'll find is that setup effort makes this less efficient than just hand placing components with tweezers until you're making 10+ boards.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2024, 05:00:19 pm
content: Making your own PCBs is fraught with difficulties.CNC engraved boards are very limited. The resolution is restricting, and the boards lack soldermask which makes building up large boards (especially with SMDs) very painful. The exposed copper can patina after a while which weakens it too.3D printed boards are still very nascent, mostly still a toy idea rather than anything practical.If you're talking about a traditional PCB process which uses photoimageable materials then it's even worse. The chemicals required for industrial PCB processes are nasty. They require hazardous material handling processes. You absolutely CANNOT put the waste for a PCB process down the public sewer. Even the rinse-water from the final part of the process is contaminated. So you need either on site decontamination or pay for a professional company to take the waste liquid away. Sometimes the etchants are flammable and usually they are corrosive so there are storage headaches too.Fibreglass (FR-4) needs air filtration and safety precautions to cut. You will need to cut the FR-4 because it comes on large rolls and board sizes will vary.The exposure process needs controlled lighting. Most PCB fabs use orange or red LED lighting like the lamp in a photography lab. This is usually carefully targeted to avoid the operating sensitivity of any photoresist.If you are building the boards yourself, then you will also need a reflow oven (requires fume extraction and 3ph power supply if it's a decent sized one) and pick and place machine. You can probably get away without wave soldering, with hand soldering either done by your students or by staff, but make sure to work out the actual cost per joint as it can be surprisingly expensive (IIRC we were coming in around 5p per joint at the last company, which led to the next board revision having a lot of THT stuff removed). The issue with pick and place machines is proper feeders for SMD reels are very expensive. Open source projects to get a gantry moving X/Y/Z to place parts are common, but there are very few out there with the precise feeders required that can remove the parts from the reel. Feeders need to be designed for the varying tape widths too as some parts take up 2/3/4 reel spots on a machine.If you wanted to get the cost down, buying a cheaper second hand machine that is otherwise obsolete and controlling it using modern software may be a better approach. I remember that we had a PnP machine powered by a Win98 PC in an old job, and getting it to work with modern formats was a pain (even supporting some USB drives was tricky). But the company that made that machine didn't support it any more so we were stuck using it.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 10:50:01 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 04, 2024, 05:00:19 pmI don't believe the OP is after setting a PCB fab here but to make the technology somehow available to a typical student at home/in the dorm.For a DIY board production you certainly don't need a reflow oven or a pick & place machine. Even a typical university lab or hackerspace doesn't need these. You are not building hundreds of identical boards in your kitchen, are you?You also don't even need the yellow light or dark room - a typical resist is not sensitive to daylight, it works with UV so unless you open the package in direct sunlight or have a lot of flourescents in the room, you will be fine. Just don't leave an open package of dry resist or of pre-sensitized boards laying around. Fab work where they are after maximizing yield is a different ballgame and not relevant for a typical DIY setup.Concerning waste - you neutralize it with baking soda and most places have a municipal waste collection facility that will take such chemical waste from you in small quantities. Universities and such typically have a way to dispose of such waste because they have laboratories (I guess we are not making PCBs for a degree in philosophy or humanities in general). Those deal with way worse chemicals than hydrochloric acid, ferric chloride and copper compounds. Again, we are not setting up an industrial scale production facility here - that would be a different story.For a typical DIY/hobbyist grade work a toner transfer or photolithography is totally doable and sufficient for a lot of projects already. I personally wouldn't touch PCB milling because of the noise & dust (plus it is very limited & slow) but many people use that too. Whether it is economical/worth doing for you that is something everyone must decide for themselves, because there are many factors that come into it, not only board production/shipping cost or even board complexity. E.g. iteration time or deadlines ("I need a board for my semester project I must hand in next week - and it will take 3 weeks to get the board from China, what do I do now?!") play an equally important role.

author: jduncan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 12:47:50 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on November 06, 2024, 10:50:01 amSo sick of hearing this silly talking point. JLC will fab a 2-layer board in 24 hours, and for $20 you get delivery to the US on the other side of the world in 3 days more. You can click "order" then spend the hours you would waste DIYing the board (for a much worse result) on your other classes.

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 04:21:02 pm
content: I think in a future with nationalist governments everywhere and without free trade making PCBs of some complexity should belong to the skill set of EEs. Especially european countries will probably seek different solutions. Depending on China (PCBs) or on USA (Chips) appears more and more risky.Regards, Dieter

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 06:30:39 pm
content: Quote from: jduncan on November 06, 2024, 12:47:50 pmMaybe check how much does the postage cost to Europe in such case. And how much a 24h turnaround costs vs the normal 3 days. Aisler has even 8 (!) working days standard.We are talking students here, paying that out of their own pocket, likely with no income yet. And even the "3 day DHL shopping" is more like a more than a week to Germany (had that happen recently). The much better results is of no use if you don't get the board assembled, integrated (the project is rarely the board from China!) and delivered on time.To paraphrase you - I am sick of hearing these talking points of people assuming everyone has the same needs, means and resources as they do.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 06:34:24 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on November 06, 2024, 10:50:01 amA reflow oven certainly is basic equipment these days. It doesn’t need to be a super-expensive continuous conveyer system, after all. Decent ovens based on toaster ovens can be had for very little.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 06:39:25 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 06, 2024, 06:34:24 pmA basic requirement for what, exactly? Esp. for a cash-strapped student?If you said hot air, sure. One needs to be able to rework boards and it helps with some difficult components. But a reflow oven (plus keeping a stock of paste, etc)? Let's get real, shall we? I think a student at home or in a dorm or shared flat somewhere has completely different priorities than getting a reflow oven.A hackspace or a school lab can have a small oven, there it makes a bit more sense - but even there it is rarely used. E.g. we have one at the local hackspace - and it gets used only once in a blue moon when someone needs to pre-assemble a large amount of kits for some event. Otherwise for the one off stuff I see regularly being assembled there it is just faster to do it by hand (either using iron or hot air) than to mess with stencils, paste, setting the oven up, etc. And people are building even fairly large boards with a fair amount of SMD components there.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 07:12:35 pm
content: Who said anything about a student buying this for themselves? It’s obvious that the entire context of this discussion is as some kind of service for students.Many modern components demand reflow soldering using stenciled paste, and handheld hot air cannot solder all such parts.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 07:05:30 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 06, 2024, 07:12:35 pmThat's not at all from what OP has posted (and never came back) - the post & survey are about a "A DIY PCB machine" and not any kind of service.I have also yet to encounter a component "demanding reflow soldering using stenciled paste" and that hot air cannot do. I am sure there are such components - but they are not something a DIY amateur/hobbyist/student is going to work with or that doesn't have an alternative in a more sensible package. Even more so given that we are discussing a DIY low cost boards (i.e. 2 layers max, nonmetalized vias, no solder mask, etc.).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 06:13:46 pm
content: Well, when you are talking about students who are too poor to buy a $60 toaster oven to reflow in, and the OP’s mention of makerspaces, it certainly suggests a device owned by a larger organization, with users using it themselves or the staff doing it for them. Either way, not the end user owning it.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 07:29:28 am
content: Quote from: janoc on November 06, 2024, 06:30:39 pm22€ for shipping, 6.80€ extra for 24 hour service. (That's for 5 pieces of a 100*160 mm² board from JLCPCB.) So what?The fact that Aisler has 8 days standard processing time is disappointing and rather dumb. They are forfeiting the big benefit they have, namely being local for European customers. In most cases, JLCPCB will easily beat them on price including shipping, delivery time,andcapabilities -- all at the same time of course.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 08:28:47 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 09, 2024, 07:29:28 amExactly. When I order from JLC, it takes almost every time exactly 7 days from Gerber until I have the boards in my hand using DHL Express (usually around Euro 23 to 27).I have now done more than 470 separate orders with them, and they have never let me down (4 and 6 layers).I'm also using their CNC machining for a lot of stuff as well as their 3D printing(some of the Alu I have had CNC'ed from them:https://www.moonbounce.dk/hamradio/repam-remote-pa-monitor.html)

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2024, 05:26:03 pm
content: QuoteI use JLCPCB a lot, but waiting 7 days and spending $50 for the pleasure isn't in the same race as something I can have in my hands in half an hour for nothing.Sure, there are caveats for this: only works with simple boards that are mostly single-sided (mostly because I can't be arsed dealing with double-sided alignment), and it's for prototypes that aren't going to need solder masks and all that stuff (but 0.5mm pitch SMD is not a problem).In reality there aren't that many jobs like this that I want to do, and maybe instead I'll use protoboard and PTH components. But the point of this post is to refute the absolute certainty that waiting for shipping from China and paying steeply for that isalwaysthe best solution.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2024, 06:10:25 pm
content: A half hour if you have your process totally nailed in, and don’t need to drill many holes. It doesn’t take much for it to take a lot longer than a half hour.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2024, 06:49:53 pm
content: If it took all day it would still be a winner if you don't want to wait or throw money away.QuoteNonsensical argument. Sending off the JLCPCB is only quick if you have you CAD and stuff 'totally nailed in' already. Start from scratch and you won't have sent anything off before you'd expect it to be back! Same applied to pretty much any process, and you have to start at the beginning some time. You could wend your way down to McDonalds and think "must be a better way, but it would take too long and be too much hassle to dial in that process of 'cooking', and you gotta have a cooker and raw materials... nah, I like burgers anyway."

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2024, 08:51:58 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on November 14, 2024, 06:49:53 pmHow is it sensible to spend an entire day making a simple one-sided PCB?Quote from: PlainName on November 14, 2024, 06:49:53 pmI don’t think you understood what I am saying.I am starting from the assumption that one has the PCB layout done, ready to send gerbers or to print out to use to etch at home. Doing the board layout is not part of perfecting your PCB manufacturing process — that is a separate step individual to each board.All I was saying is that if you have your home PCB production process already perfected (that’s what I mean by “nailed in”) — you have already perfected your print settings and material selection, exposure times (for photosensitized boards) or transfer temperature (for toner transfer), and have perfected the etching time and temperature for your etchant — THEN you can quickly and reliably produce a PCB from your prepared PCB layout. As long as you don’t have dozens and dozens of holes to drill and don’t have complex board shapes to cut.If youhaven’tbeen doing enough DIY PCB manufacturing to have a repeatable, reliable process, then you may end up spending a lot more time, thanks to failed attempts.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2024, 10:20:06 pm
content: what do you do if the JLCPCB order button is greyed out?This is just a question of their organizational philosophy. Not everyone agrees that just because currently there is a advanced overseas manufacturing facility providing some service that the skill is not worth learning or that it might not help develop a mind. Not everyone just had the assumption that its 'bad' to learn because of availability.I mean they can easily get the money from university to setup a assemble line to make a custom complex bus bar, or wind a inductor or even get fancy and actually make your own professional quality capacitor.It seems like a perfectly fine exercise that has the prospect of actually offering a service, complete with local expertise (i.e. friends) that can be used for team building between departments and all sorts of educational things.I swear, if he said that he was gonna get the equipment together to make a old time 74 type chip everyone would just think its awesome for some reason, even if its basically the same thing but smaller and possibly more useless then being able to make a PCB, because no one wants DIY 74 series chips.A university can hire basically any service to do any one of their electronics design projects in half the time and possibly cost, but the goal of educating people would not be met... i.e. run it like a private research contract. In private the boss does not care if you learned something or if your a clever manager that hired someone to do something, because unless there is some other business objective (involving building expertise) , it gets done faster and cheaper.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2024, 11:07:13 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 14, 2024, 08:51:58 pmBecause you want it now and can do it for now. I really don't know why it's so hard to grasp such a simple concept!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2024, 11:28:45 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 14, 2024, 08:51:58 pmNo, clearly you haven't thought about what I wrote. The board layout is already donebecause you have the process already in place. For someone with the DIY board making capabilitythe process is already in place. You are moving the goalposts and on the one hand saying this works because the process is in place, and that doesn't because the process isn't in place. Yes, that's true, but it's bloody apples and oranges. Play with a level playing field, eh.So,evenwith your 'process already in place' thing, at one time it wasn't. So that's the same situation as someone without the board making process. Apples vs apples, see. And, as I said, you gotta start at the beginning right at the beginning, and the ONLY reason you can whip off a board design fast is because the process was started at the beginning and now you are a long way down the road. Yes, tinkering to get the process nailed down included.QuoteYes, but like everything else, you gotta start before you get there and, like everything else, you can just keep putting that off until it never happens. Or, you can figure it's worth a go and do it, after which you're in the situation where you have a nailed-down process and then argue oranges vs oranges with someone on the same playing field.QuoteWrong. Oh, that might be a problem for the way you would do it (and explain why you hate it so much you want to put everyone else off too). But for me it's no real difference - it's just gcode and how fast the mill can churn through it in the end. Hell, I can even do mid-board cutouts and slots with no more effort. Castellated holes should be just as easy too, I reckon (haven't actually tried that because I've not needed them).QuoteYes, and as I pointed out, the same applies for designing the board, cooking, driving,understanding posts on forums, soldering... Oh noes, not long until the only way to make boards according to EEVBlog gurus is to have them assembled by JLC too. After all, only a few bob and a couple of days extra.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2024, 02:50:45 am
content: if you drill it all by hand you really get a stream lined design because your gonna question every single hole. no unnecessary swiss cheeseI think it limits how many 'rules of thumb' get included in a design for no reason. just a observationSometimes with the fancy boards I wonder if I am seeing a shotgun approach taken, on some crazy multi cnc drillerI am sure its out there, relay dry contact with 0.05mm via stitching connected to a screw terminal with a 10kohm resistor stuck in there, connected to something electromechanical. Because a custom DRC routine that does "the best boards ever" got activated by a mechanical engineer. And then the board snaps in half when its screwed into the enclosure

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2024, 09:35:10 am
content: QuoteNot holes specifically, but I wonder if the ease and cheapness of having decent boards done affects things. If it's going to cost serious money and take several weeks then you really don't want to have to redo it, so you'll be a lot more careful than if you can have it in your hands tomorrow for pennies. Perhaps a bit like programming, where once upon a time it took a while to compile and burn your EPROM(s) so you did things differently to how they might be done now where you can go from writing stuff to using JTAG to single step it in (seemingly) moments.And... since it's easier to get into the game there will be a lot of new users who don't have the experience (aka previous cockups) or senior engineers to know how to do stuff 'properly' so it's a bit of a cargo cult approach.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2024, 02:03:01 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on November 14, 2024, 10:20:06 pmHuh?Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about. The picture you included did not help.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2024, 04:56:02 pm
content: a argument was had about the curriculum of a academy in a famous movie. I think its a situation that students and teachers often run into involving using simpler methods that have been automated.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2024, 05:25:45 pm
content: Gotta be honest: if DIY PCBs involve big knives and hole in hands, I'm going JLCPCB in future.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2024, 05:45:05 pm
content: they can involve both, if you have students use a shear and a manual drill press without supervisionI think Denmark can handle it, I think their smartbecause even if you get them made, you need to make sure they don't throw them at each other like cards

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2024, 06:38:05 pm
content: I will never order from them. I don't like their animated Ads taking away useful window space. And i don't like to send my designs to people i don't know. Who orders from them supports a destructive effort financed by the Chinese government with the aim to destroy western business. It's kind of a war.Regards, Dieter

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2024, 08:36:24 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on November 14, 2024, 11:28:45 pmDude. The ONLY “process” I have referred to in this entire discussion is the process ofmanufacturing the board, not fordesigningit (doing layout),nor the process of developing the manufacturing process.Laying out the board is NOT part of the process of manufacturing the board! To be doubly clear, by “manufacturing the board”, I mean the work that companies like JLCPCB will do: physically making the board from the design you give them. They do NOT design the board for you. That’s not me moving the goalpost, it’s stopping YOU from moving it by attempting to move board design into the manufacturing process as you did in your earlier reply, or expanding the manufacturing process to includedeveloping/perfecting the manufacturing process itselfas you did in this reply!!Anyway, you’re acting as though I don’t understand the concept of someone who makes PCBs themselves regularly. Of course I do, and the fact that my original comment started with “unless you have your process nailed in…” makes it obvious that a) I know that people who do make lots of PCBs themselves can exist, and b) that such peoplearen’t the ones I’m talking about!Students — the initial target group discussed in this thread — are almost guaranteed to NOT fall into the group of people who make lots of PCBs themselves. If they did, they would not need a novel device or service provider.Now you’re suddenly talking about milling your PCBs? You didn’t mention that earlier. I’ve been working on the assumption that by doing it yourself, you meant the traditional methods of cutting a board by hand, etching, then drilling the holes by hand on a drill press. You never mentioned a CNC mill. But that means you are already discussing something radically different from the DIY everyone else is discussing.I don’t know why you’re so angry and condescending with me. I wasn’t rude to you. I can only respond to what you write, not what youthinkbut don’t actually say. You accuse me of not knowing how to read a forum post, yet you’re repeatedly ignoring or misunderstanding what I am saying even after I re-explained it to try and clarify for you. (I know how to read forums; I’ve been doing it for over 25 years.) But even if we are totally misunderstanding each other, that’s no reason for you to be rude.And it’s certainly not fair for you to put words in my mouth: I never said that there isneverany justification for DIYing a board.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2024, 08:53:56 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on November 14, 2024, 10:20:06 pmI work at a university in the workshop. Not precisely the same thing as you describe, since we are a service provider for the department (which is not an electrical engineering department), and students rarely do any work in the workshop themselves (though they can if they ask to and do the training).Regardless, what I hear over and over again, and witness myself in various ways, is that higher education is moving away from doing things in-house. In the electronics workshop (my little domain within the department workshop), I have drawers full of things like inductor cores, bare copper-clad PCBs, etc. that used to be done in-house. But as the workshops have been cut back, you just don’t do those yourself anymore. All the PCB equipment that used to be around (etching tanks, UV exposure box, etc) were disposed of years ago; only the (homemade!) PCB table saw remains. I know it used to exist because of the remnant materials and older in-house equipment that has homemade boards in it, as well as the binders full of old design documentation, including the PCB layouts — later ones laser printed onto transparencies, earlier ones made by hand with that black tape and rub-on pad shapes!The university I work at still has several machine shops in various departments, a few electronics workshops, as well as a shared glassblowing workshop. Each of these staffed with skilled tradesmen. And the researchers areabsolutely delightedto have these resources (and the ability to have us collaborate on their designs, since the researchers aren’t engineers). What I am told over and over by researchers who have worked at other universities around the world is that most of them have gotten rid of most or all of their workshops, requiring most or all jobs to be outsourced. And that is clearly the direction this university would like to go in the long run, too. The executives that run universities today just see in-house shops and services as cost centers and don’t realize the value they add.</rant>

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2024, 08:55:33 pm
content: QuoteIt's DIY, and many people do it. Nothing strange or professional about it. And, indeed, it might be a useful thing for the OP to follow up since it won't involve nasty chemicals.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2024, 09:01:31 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on November 15, 2024, 09:35:10 am100% agree.I mean, both the “work quickly and iterate a bunch of times, since Chinese PCBs are cheap” and the “design it carefully in the hopes of not needing many revisions” approaches have their merits.But we certainly have seen the downside of easy software and firmware distribution and updating: lousy, rushed software/firmware with tons of bugs, since “you can fix bugs later”. Not so much back in the days when firmware resided in EPROMs or even mask ROMs, and software had to be updated by mailing floppy disks to customers!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2024, 09:08:34 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on November 15, 2024, 08:55:33 pmCNC milling PCB traces has proven to be one of the least attractive methods, one that a lot of people who try it quickly abandon.I disagree about it being “professional”. It’s not quite good enough for real professional use (in that you can’t use it to prototype the multilayer boards that are now commonplace in professional settings, and that its resolution limits become real problems with many modern components. That problem is only going to get worse.). But it’s too complex and fiddly for most hobbyists to bother. (And most hobbyists don’t have a CNC mill.) So the niche where milling the traces makes sense is quite small.DIY PCB manufacturing has traditionally meant etching after using either photosensitized boards and UV exposure, and to a lesser degree using toner transfer.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2024, 10:42:31 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on November 15, 2024, 08:55:33 pmI am sick of this nasty chemicals business, particularly when people take a dremel to a piece of fiberglass in front of me and act like some how its better then a tiny bit of corrosive gas.Or when someone gets the sanding wheel on a painted object, thinking its some how better for them then the new formula of paint stripper. I find almost everyone I know does not take dust hazard seriously.I really think if you use chemicals responsibility in a shop, it ends up being cleaner and also healthier. I mean corrosive stuff like millscale remover or even alumiprep. Easy to contain mild fumes vs high velocity jets of particles, usually involving healthy alumina or even silicates!The one that is amazing to me is paint stripper. If you paint it on a moderate object, you will see JUST HOW MUCH paint comes off that sucker. You can scoop it up into a cup to measure it. Scary that someone might try to take all that paint with a wire wheel lolOn youtube you see some restoration guys standing in a paint dust cloud for like a day in high speed stripping paint off a refrigerator or car hood with a sander instead of just taking it off with a bit of chemicals.That is why I think people should at least make an attempt to try a chemical PCB process, I like how most of the atoms get contained inside of a liquid and the fiberglass is unaffected. If you hate it you hate it.. but you might notAnd, save for a few exceptions (glass working), more chemicals will enter your body through your permeable lungs then they will through skin contact.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2024, 11:13:30 pm
content: Whatever you use - chemicals, cutters, lasers - you have to take appropriate precautions. Personally, I got fed up with the sink turning yellow even though I didn't use it! And now, 20 years later, there is still a huge ferric chloride tank out in the garage because I have no idea how to dispose of the stuff.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2024, 12:10:11 am
content: mix it with baking soda and I bet in a month you can decant all the metals into a small amount of sludgei would try to neutralize 1/4 cup and let it stand for a long time to see what happensI think its pretty non soluable and non corrosive at this point, so you can throw it in the trashand if you find it does something nasty like stain a stainless steel sink, the best solution is citric acid. If you can afford it, citri-surf gel is kind of like navel jelly for stainless steel.not sure if it will clean porcelain too much, but I am pretty sure in the past I got ferric chloride stains out of porcelain by using toilet cleaner (HCl based)I used my stainless sink as a container for a PCB etch, and the bubbles got a bit out of hand, and despite rinsing it, I did get a few spots of corrosion, but I sprayed it down with high concentration citric acid solution (you can add a drop of soap too) and it got rid of all the problems.. now its just kind of standard procedure to spray it down with citric acid to dissolve all the iron (it leaves chromium and nickel alone). I think a tiny bit of soap maybe makes it evaporate slower.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2024, 12:47:26 am
content: I'll try that, thanks.Or get run over by a bus, and then it's someone elses problem