Malware and web browser hijackers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 07:31:59 am
content: Anyone can recommend known-good removal tools? At work my win 7 machine's MS Security Essentials is constantly all day detecting and removing the same exact trojan over and over. Googling the name of the trojan yields no specific results whatsoever for win32/texsafea. Probably it's a randomized executable name. Trying to delete the file is not possible, turning off the related service in msconfig doesn't stop it either.Another thing that happens is that Waterfox and Internet Explorer randomly open tabs to a 7nt.com website, a Chinese site. I added that hosts and it blocks whatever that connects to but the tabs keep trying to open.I've tried several tools like Malwarebytes, Spybot, Norton, Avast. Either they detect nothing, or remove a bunch of stuff... only for the same things above to start again. Running the scans in safe mode doesn't change anything either.Googling for removal tools seems to point to weird tools that may themselves be malware in any case.This is such a jungle that you can spend all day (and night) looking into it to no avail.What tools do you use?

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 07:44:42 am
content: Isn't this a problem for your IT department?At home, I simply backup all my data files if my backup is not up to date.And then reformat the hard drive and install a clean copy of the operating system. It's a pain but it takes less time in the long run and then I'm sure the virus has been removed. I just don't trust those removal tools and then I'm never really sure something isn't left behind.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 07:45:33 am
content: Quote from: MarkF on October 24, 2018, 07:44:42 amWhat's that?

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 07:52:46 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on October 24, 2018, 07:45:33 amI take it that your business does not have a group of people who maintain your computers and networks.

author: johnh
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 08:26:29 am
content: The IT department for the company i work for, installs all other wares like avecto to detect and stop thing like this.We don't have admin privileges, need to ask for permission if you want to install something that's not approved.Have to use application that are outdated, because it take them some so long to approve a new version of application they can be pushed to you pc.Some problem you used to able to fix yourself, but not now.Ring up IT support, go into the queue,with usual problems, Call back later, to many in the queue. blah blahNow it one size for all, dumbed done for the powerpoint pusher.Something goes wrong. Can't fix it quickly. Do a rebuild, several day lost

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 08:53:46 am
content: This is the price you sometimes pay by using windows.Use Linux to avoid this, but then then you pay a price when you need to run some windows only software.Pick your poison. Probably your boss already picked it for you...

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 09:01:31 am
content: as a starting point, you would need to try deleting your malware related files before the OS is running, the easiest way is generally running command prompt and reg edit from a windows setup disk,For things like windows 7 and up you can use resource monitor to get an idea what Exe's are accessing web resources, then many many regedit flags for IE defaults, run on startup, and others you will likely find by using keywords based on the related files you can find,The other big way to make progress on a longer tern would be to upload the example malware files to a company like malwarebytes, etc, that way they can later on add it to the malware they can deal with.To be clear a trojen is a program that lets other programs in, it can be allowing literally anything else in.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 09:05:36 am
content: Firstly, a good anti-virus tool should really do nothing more than alert you to a threat and block it from running in the first place the moment it even touches your machine, but even a decent anti-virus program is no match for a determined human who doesn't know any better. If you've already managed to get a virus/trojan/worm onto your machine, the safest thing to do is just format it and reinstall everything from scratch.You could spend many hours or days trying to "remove it", all the while it's in the background stealing your data and login details.It should take someone no more than a few hours to reinstall Windows 7 on a machine with all drivers and updates installed.

author: rjp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 09:41:41 am
content: You can use a simple dns management tool like pihole to close off known malware sites.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 09:43:47 am
content: Quote from: rjp on October 24, 2018, 09:41:41 amExcellent suggestion (I use Pihole myself, it's a brilliant product) but I think it's also important to point out that this is not a remedy to the malware. You still need to remove it.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 09:50:57 am
content: Windows just rang and they want their malware back or else you are going to get it.

author: rjp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 10:09:54 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 24, 2018, 09:43:47 amOP statedQuotewhich indicates maybe its not a removal problem or just a removal problem , it may benefit the problem to block the sites these things come from.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 10:28:54 am
content: Add a new user. If it stops happenning, Copy your stuff . Disable the original user.Or you could "just" wipe the existing installation and reinstall everythingQuoteReinstalling windows is the fast and easy part. It's all the programs you need to install afterwards that take almost forever.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 11:57:03 am
content: By far the most common form of malware these days is that spread by social engineering. The typical ploy is to send you a convincing-looking email with a malicious attachment, or which points you to a website which will offer a malicious download.The best protection against this is asoftware restriction policy, because this will stop the executable from being launched from the download folder.The problem with traditional AV software is that it relies on the threat being known in advance, and it's so simple to code a new executable for this class of malware that the bad guys just keep putting out new ones to avoid detection.Non-admin user working, whilst advisable, offers little protection because there is a lot of damage a user-level program can do anyway. Like deleting your documents, which are probably of more worth to you than the OS anyway.I'm not entirely convinced that Linux IS any safer from this class of exploit. Most installations have wine, and will therefore run any double-clicked Windows executables. The difference in stats is more likely because Linux users tend to be more tech-savvy and therefore less easily duped.The one really, REALLY bad development in this area is Microsoft's obsession with 'Packaged Apps' which run inside user profile folders. The presence of these 'Apps' severely restricts the security protections that you can put in place.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 12:34:23 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on October 24, 2018, 07:31:59 amYou need to use the "dangerous" malware tools to be able to even poke at certain nasty malwares .Else erase HD and new install.Else anew HD and new install.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 12:45:02 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on October 24, 2018, 11:57:03 amI am.Quote from: IanMacdonald on October 24, 2018, 11:57:03 amI guess we engineers don't simply double-click on everything we download, specially if it has a .exe extension.If an engineer is that ignorent, well, then there's no solution.Quote from: IanMacdonald on October 24, 2018, 11:57:03 amBut this is a tech-forum, most of us are engineers and are tech-savvy. So, lets keep it in this context.The most important factor is that Linux desktop marketshare is somewhere around 2%. As a result, almost all mallware is targeted to windows, Android and Mac.This alone is already a good reason to use Linux on the desktop.And no, the argument "but if everybody moves to Linux, mallware writers will follow" is nonsens because we all know that desktop Linux marketshare will not goanywhere for the foreseeable future. So, the few that move to Linux profit from that.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 01:24:40 pm
content: Is combofix still a thing?I used it once to remove a trojan/rootkit that had embedded itself in a driver utility or something like that. While the malware was removed, the ultimate solution was to format and reinstall.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 01:48:57 pm
content: Quote from: metrologist on October 24, 2018, 01:24:40 pmIt is possible to entirely remove a rootkit, but not from within the infected machine itself. You have to use repair discs and external tools as most likey it has embedded itself into the OS and other critical files. There should be some sort of bootable anti-virus you can put on a disc or USB drive to clean a corrupted OS.

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 05:12:27 pm
content: Hi all,Don't forget full system backups.......it makes life a LOT easier and minimal downtime, say 1hr typically instead of "several days".I backup my Windows drive C with Image for Windows once a week or so, it's a few clicks using Image For Windows and it's done...….and so in the event of drive failure or other such catastrophic problem......it's just a case of swapping out the drive for a fresh one (if you want to), boot the Image For Windows USB stick and restore the drive C from the single backup image file.Backups take about 20mins typically and you can work while it’s doing it’s thing.Restoring takes slightly longer.I typically have stored away up to 5 or so image files of my main Dev PC drive C covering the past few weeks/months.......then there's the image files for my web server, laptops, logging PC etc.The pain and time it takes to format/re-install an OS then re-install the apps/data etc just doesn't need to happen IMHO.......Ian.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 05:24:26 pm
content: Several vendors of antivirus software offer free bootable "rescue disks", e.g.https://support.kaspersky.com/viruses/krd18orhttps://www.avira.com/en/support-download-avira-antivir-rescue-system.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 08:08:31 pm
content: ask your co worker to take a peak

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 10:49:19 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on October 24, 2018, 11:57:03 amWell, DON'T use Wine. Use VirtualBox, and only have the Windows guest OS running when you need it, and ONLY run specific Windows-only apps on it. NEVER get on the net from the guest OS except to load those apps when you set up the Windows system. This has worked FINE for me for years.I have a couple CAD packages that are Windows-only, and that is all that is ever run on the Windows guest OS. Never had a problem with it.As for Linux apps, they all seem to be pretty robust, and detect malware such as spreadsheet or word documents with macros in them.And, of course, if you download a .exe file, Linux will be totally unable to run it, as the binary format is incompatible.Jon

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 11:03:13 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on October 24, 2018, 01:48:57 pmMy understanding and experience was that is exactly what combofix can do. I think earlier versions did not run on the OS at all, but that was many years ago.And now I come to Hiren's BootCD. I'd never be able to pull that out of my head.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 03:55:55 am
content: My favorite part so far: getting windows 7 to create a repair CD. It writes to a blank CD, reports success, you can see something happened to the CD in the drive because now it shows 0 bytes free, eject the disc, insert it again.... it's magically blank.This from the tool in Windows 7 in another PC.Genius.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 06:35:49 am
content: Quote from: IanJ on October 24, 2018, 05:12:27 pmNo matter which OS you are running, if your business depends on it, Ian's solution is the best.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 07:19:22 pm
content: Bootable disk/USB if a modern machine with no floppies. Then you cn access the hard drive and delete the files.That's how you clean up these things that launch every time the machine boots, and also tend to change the name on every launch

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 08:40:33 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on October 25, 2018, 03:55:55 amAvoid Windows' own backup system like the plague. Drive Image XML from Runtime Software is a good free (for home use) alternative. Main point though, is that a backup is only a backup once you've demonstrated that it can be restored to another disk. To restore the image you will need a Windows PE CD or USB stick.I certainly feel this is an area where Windows has gone right off the rails. Linux you can back up with nothing more than tar or cp. All of the stupid filesystem gimmicks that Windows now has, mean that you can never be sure that a backup will restore to bare metal.Other alternative is to do risky stuff in a virtual machine. If there is any doubt at all that something nasty might have gained a foothold, roll it back. Takes a few seconds. Only downside is that video doesn't play well in a VM.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 09:48:09 pm
content: I had some experience a couple of years ago with Windows 7 built in back up. It can work, but is very, very quirky. It was expected to be used with DVDs and does not seem to like like flash drives at all. I was able to get an external USB HDD to work. I never tried the network drive option. It also can have problems if the new drive and/or partition is a different size. I finally just gave up on it. These days I keep my data backed up on a FreeNAS machine and if the computer craps out, I'll just install Windows from scratch. I can do that in about 15 minutes, so no big deal. Nearly all the software I use runs as portable, so there's not much to reinstall.The people at Sevenforums like Macrium Reflect, which has a free version I believe. I never tried it.As previously said though, you must test that you can restore from bare metal. This means putting in a new blank drive and restoring from the backup. An untested backup is an untrusted backup.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 07:33:51 am
content: I use to use that Kaspersky rescue years ago but it doesn't pick everything up including those "fix error" or "drive updater"/ Winfixer clones that my customers are tricked into installing and now I just find it easier to take out the drive, plug it in, do a disc image, and search the file system and check the boot drivers and everything else and monitor and trace the outgoing connections it makes through my firewall when I am about finished.It is easy I suppose when you got a workshop.I recently brought that Macrium Reflect for disc imaging which is convenient and I have Norton Ghost which is good and simple to use but it doesn't write the EFI partition correctly.On Chrome and Firefox browsers I just backup the bookmarks and passwords and uninstall and also remove the the profiles application data.I never use Internet Explorer for browsing as in the past a simple banner ad can exploit Javascript and install things.I have seen on Chromebook Chrome being replaced by a varient from the customer by just installing a "Free calculator" which in turn installed other things such as MyWaySearch and that Conduit/Mindspark things. It wouldn't load the banks webpage as they did online banking with it and their bank blocked payments to their account after some breach even through no money was taken. Maybe it was a coincidence.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 07:51:13 am
content: Quote from: rdl on October 26, 2018, 09:48:09 pmI used DriveImageXML for years, but switched to Macrium Reflect (Free Edition) for the last 4 or 5 years, and it worked just fine, including restoring to different media sizes or types like HD -> SSD or even weird pre-selected partitions like laptop HD that has multiple recovery partitions for restorations/migrations, all worked flawlessly, recommended.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 08:09:22 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on October 27, 2018, 07:51:13 amI have seen that from Runtime and I could not get DriveImageXml to extract the EFI partition properly after some attempts for it boot up when was I testing it.Their GetDataBack for Fat and NTFS is quite good and I purchased and I use that free Testdisk too.I was testing Clonezilla but there are lots of issues and a lot of messing about but it do the EFI part correctly.Before I found Macrium I got tricked into Acronis and they lied to me when I contacted them.After I paid for the features I could not find anyway extract the image directly to drives.The user interface was difficult and unclear to use and it was built for like a tablet with all those squares on it.They told me I needed to make a LIVECD and copy the image to a usb drive which will take forever and then I found this article:https://www.acronis.com/en-us/articles/how-to-restore-individual-files/"many restoration jobs don't involve entire disks or partitions""Instead, users need to recover a single file or folder that has been accidentally deleted or corrupted."When they couldn't answer my questions about the confirmation email that it would extract directly to drives they put me through to their payment third party for a refund.I think of it as a dumbed down version of Ghost with all its clowny UI.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2018, 10:48:02 am
content: Quote from: Karel on October 24, 2018, 12:45:02 pmWeeeeelllll... don’t be so sure! The Mac is still a small minority, but it’s grown just enough (both in reality, but also in “mind share”) that malware writers have begun to target it. Luckily, by the time they did, we’d moved to Mac OS X which, being a UNIX, has true user permissions and stuff, such that it’s difficult to propagate malware (unlike pre-Vista Windows, or classic Mac OS, which by the end truly hadonlylow market share to thank for the absence of malware!). If Linux manages to steal even just a few % market share from Windows, it could become a target.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2018, 11:43:46 am
content: Quote from: tooki on October 29, 2018, 10:48:02 amIt's very unlikely that Linux is going to take a couple of percent more in the nearby future.For many years now Linux desktop usage is stable somewhere between 1.5 - 2%, depending on the sources you are using.There are no indications that this is going to change soon.Anyway, in practice, Linux on the desktop (without a virusscanner) is a thousand times more safer than windows with a virusscanner, if not, ten thousand...If you want certainty, airgap your computer.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2018, 01:49:22 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on October 29, 2018, 11:43:46 amAgreed. I don’t see any signs of this changing any time soon.Quote from: Karel on October 29, 2018, 11:43:46 amProbably not. Linux is good, no question. But so is Windows at this point — it’s been battle-hardened over the years due to the constant onslaught of attacks. Linux is guaranteed to be full of vulnerabilities that we just don’t know of, due to its small desktop market share.Consider Android, whichisa derivative of Linux, if you’re not quite willing to call it aflavorof Linux. There’s lots of malware on it.A big part of the problem is that end users aren’t computer pros, and the freedoms needed to let systems be useful and flexible are the same freedoms that make it easy for a user to inadvertently admit malware.Quote from: Karel on October 29, 2018, 11:43:46 amThat’s not really practical advice given that these days, probably 95% of computer use is for going online.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2018, 03:26:29 pm
content: The top risk is still the PEBKAC.But I like to point out that linux has a large server market share. All the large "clouds" are based on linux for example, i.e. an attractive target. When new security problems are found they'll be fixed fast as cloud vendors have a strong interest in keeping their servers secure. Android is derived from linux but it lacks a lot of functionality, including security related things. It's like comparing Windows CE to Windows 7/10. And Macs aren't secure either. If you follow the hacker cons (BlackHat, DefCon) you'll see an increasing number of talks about Apple's products.

author: Jan Audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2018, 03:30:43 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on October 29, 2018, 11:43:46 amThey have USB virusses specially to take over offline computers.First your MB stick works fine, then all the sudden you lost all data.Now the hacker installed new firmware in your USB stick.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2018, 04:40:09 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 29, 2018, 01:49:22 pmI don't agree. Linux is much, much more hardened than windows. Although not on the desktop, Linux is by far the most used operating system in the world.By using it as a desktop OS, you inherently get the security while at the same time, you'r not a major target because Linux is usually attacked when used asa (internet) server, which you don't when you use it as a desktop OS.Quote from: tooki on October 29, 2018, 01:49:22 pmAndroid is a castrated version of Linux. Google ripped out many important things, many of them are related to security.Quote from: tooki on October 29, 2018, 01:49:22 pmThat's because it's used by many people which makes it a target.Quote from: tooki on October 29, 2018, 01:49:22 pmEngineers are usually techsavvy, they are not the type that blindly click on everything they download.The fact that desktop-Linux isn't a major target like windows, Android and Mac, makes it a good choice for the people who actually use it.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2018, 05:29:44 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on October 26, 2018, 09:48:09 pmWindows 7 backup saved my bacon twice in recent years. it's clunky and weird but it worked.Note I say "worked." Now when I try to start it, I get a weird error code, something to do with shadow copies and such, and all searches for how to fix it have dead ends.Why oh why can't Microsoft include something as good as Time Machine in their freakin' operating system? Time Machine works and it is simple as can be so you have no excuses to not use it.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2018, 06:58:57 pm
content: Was it something like this?Quote from: Bassman59 on October 29, 2018, 05:29:44 pm

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2018, 10:29:52 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on October 29, 2018, 06:58:57 pmThat was _one_ of the errors. That one actually had some information. Usually it just fails with an eight-hex-digit code that Google and Bing don't know anything about.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2018, 11:25:22 pm
content: I got that error when trying to backup a brand new install of Windows from an otherwise empty drive, to a completely empty and freshly NTFS formatted 300 GB external drive.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/windows-backup/msg1034590/

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2018, 11:51:55 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on October 29, 2018, 04:40:09 pmThe vulnerabilities in server OSes and desktop/mobile OSes are radically different, because you're dealing with very different attack surfaces (even to the same core software underneath). So the absolutely battle-hardened security of Linux as a server will not fully translate to equal security on the desktop. (And that's before we even consider the PEBKAC factor!)Windows has a long history of being attacked on the desktop level. And remember how one version of iOS jailbreak (been fixed for a decade now) was accessed simply by loading a URL? That's a vulnerability that existed because of a bug in a user-facing API, not in the kernel or something.Quote from: Karel on October 29, 2018, 04:40:09 pmAnd this invalidates my argument how? The same things apply to a user-friendly GUI layer, too.Remember that a ton of Windows' vulnerabilities were enabled by MS choosing user-friendliness over security.Quote from: Karel on October 29, 2018, 04:40:09 pm…and because security layers were ripped out, as you just said.Quote from: Karel on October 29, 2018, 04:40:09 pmWell, most peoplearen'tengineers. (See e.g. Eric Raymond's wonderful "Aunt Tillie" stories!) If Linux wants to become a popular AND secure desktop OS for normal people, they will need to harden it against the huge percentage of people who do blindly click on everything because they do not have the knowledge and skill to tell apart good sources from bad! Secure OS underpinnings are worth nothing if your users are conditioned to more-or-less blindly put in their admin password whenever a prompt comes up. (This is literally exactly why, for example, macOS uses code signing to discourage, though not outright prohibit, unvetted code, and uses certificate revocation to disable software remotely if it is discovered to be serious malware.)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 01:02:54 am
content: I've had to clean up a number of badly infected systems for people. The most effective tools I've found have been boot CDs that boot their own Linux distro and can clean the system without booting off the drive it's trying to clean.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 04:29:04 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on October 24, 2018, 07:31:59 amWhen I ran Windows, Malwarebytes was the best at removing stuff. I don't run Windows anymore, but if Malwarebytes can't get rid of it after more than 2 passes, it is safest to reformat and reinstall everything from scratch.If I'm helping friends and family with viruses, I find that disabling adminstrator access and giving them a regular user account + a browser adblocker stops repeat calls for help.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 07:34:33 am
content: Quote from: tooki on October 29, 2018, 11:51:55 pmOn this forum they are and I assumed the people I am replying to are engineers.I was speaking in that context so please, don't change the context.Quote from: tooki on October 29, 2018, 11:51:55 pmDespite what some fanboys want, in my opinion, "Linux" doesn't want to become a popular desktop for "normal" people.Linux is already the most popular AND secure os in the world. It doesn't need to be the most popular on the desktop.Linux is an OS designed by engineers, for engineers.windows is an os designed for the "masses".Linux is an OS with possibilities.windows is an os of limitations.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 12:00:29 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on October 30, 2018, 07:34:33 amBut I was responding to the issue of security vs. market share. As such, my comments necessarilyhadto look at a context bigger than eevblog users.Quote from: Karel on October 30, 2018, 07:34:33 amThat's a good point. I think you're right, that the real linux users don't necessarily want it to become a mainstream desktop OS.And the strength of OSS (its inherently distributed "ownership"), is also its downfall when it comes to creating a mainstream desktop OS, in that the latter requires a high degree of user interface consistency and adherence to UI guidelines by all developers. This works on Mac and (to a somewhat lesser extent) Windows, which each have one company behind it, creating the standards. There's no way to push, never mind enforce, UI consistency on OSS.I think it's rather telling that a lot of Linux developers use Windows or Mac as their desktop, through which they access the Linux code and systems that they work on.Quote from: Karel on October 30, 2018, 07:34:33 amYes!! And it's become an amazing server OS this way!Quote from: Karel on October 30, 2018, 07:34:33 amAbsolutely. (Mac as well.) And it's good that there are companies specializing in this. They have different needs from servers, and it's good to do them separately IMHO.Quote from: Karel on October 30, 2018, 07:34:33 amWell, total flexibility is a double-edged sword: amazing for back-end stuff and developers, but not good for "normal" end users because of interface inconsistency.Windows, and to an even greater extent the Mac, and to a much larger degree iOS, absolutely put limitations in place, because they serve the typical end user. (IMHO, Apple's strength in this is knowing how to choose those limitations more wisely.) I'm a lifelong Mac user, and professional UI designer (well, I was, not doing it any more) and I'll be the first to tell you that if you're the kind of person who wants full freedom to customize every aspect of your OS, then the Mac is probably not right for you. And though I haven't actively used Windows since Win 7, Windows allows more flexibility (though less so in later versions), though at the cost of stability. But Linux is where you can change anything you want. The flip side is that the Mac just… works. For people who want no-fuss computing, it's ideal. Customization allows more opportunity for problems.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 01:05:14 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 30, 2018, 12:00:29 pmWrong. microsoft put limitations because they serve their shareholders. Nothing else.The ultimate goal of almost every company is to make as much money as possible.If that needs to be done in a way that serves the enduser (because the market and/or competition demands it), than so be it.But if you can get away by scr*wing the end user because he (believes) has no choice, than do that to make even more money.Don't get me wrong, I'm not a communist. On the contrary. But in a free market, I use what serves me best and for the lowest price,which is exactly the opposite of what a convicted monopolist wants me to do.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 01:47:16 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on October 29, 2018, 11:43:46 amIf you remove kids and housewives, Linux share is much greater.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 02:37:31 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on October 30, 2018, 01:05:14 pmYikes, calm down man!You must be talking about some completely different type of "limitations" than I am. I thought you meant things like feature sets, limited configurability, etc., as is normally done to make user interfaces approachable to non-experts.I think you'll have to explain what kinds of limitationsyou'rethinking of, because I don't know what you mean.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 04:50:38 pm
content: This thread has been de-railed, my fault. I stop here.I try to avoid os flame-wars. This time I failed. I apologize.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 05:13:15 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on October 30, 2018, 01:47:16 pmBy far the #1 reason I hear for people having a Windows PC is gaming. Even a hardcore Linux guy I used to work with also had a Windows box because he's a gamer.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 06:51:10 pm
content: Same with many would-be Mac users. Hardcore gaming remains firmly in the Windows camp.Of course, some gamers run Mac or Linux as their "productivity" OS and then dual-boot into Windows for gaming.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 07:09:00 pm
content: If you count Chromebooks as Linux, then the Linux market share is growing ... shame about the datamining.I hold out hope that Valve will do something similar to Chromebooks (ie. limited hardware platforms to allow good QA, with the OS locked down by default, with all apps containerized and almost nothing for the user to screw up, with all user data stored on the cloud to allow easy migration/reset). Ubuntu is slowly moving in the right direction as well, but I think they burned out on trying to push certified hardware, which is absolutely necessary to allow good QA.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 07:34:22 pm
content: QuoteVery true. If not for playing games I could be 100% Linux now at home, and playing games will probably be the only reason I will ever allow Windows 10 here.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 12:08:25 am
content: Quote from: Marco on October 30, 2018, 07:09:00 pmI have had a customer where the Chrome browser was altered on his Chromebook with something that looked like chrome by simply him installing a "free calculator" months before then it installed all other things afterwards such as "Free extension things" from "Mindspark" and "MyWaySearch" and he had problems with his bank as he did online banking. The banks website wouldn't load anymore and his bank put a hold on his account and his card and he had to the bank who told him they had some breach but no money taken. He brought his Chromebook in but they weren't interested and he just changed his details and his password there. I uninstalled the extensions the first time, bank website did not load, he said leave it for now but the extensions came back days later and then I discovered there were variants in the "Chrome" browser and was redirecting when you do a search even though I removed the dodgy extensions, I reset settings and made sure the website searches were off the search list. I see it is so locked down as I couldn't check the chrome files and profile files on the Chromebook directory (or maybe I am not familiar with doing so on Chromebook Chromium unlike with other Linux distributions where it is just there) and it is a solid state drive and in warranty to take apart.I did a factory restore from a pendrive and now the bank's website loads up and no redirect. I left a link to extensions and told them to be very careful not to click free offers, watch out for advert banners pretending to be links and watch that extension list.Quite frightening though when it involves the bank.