My Second Rant - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 02:32:48 pm
content: Hi all,What companies have in mind when they impose strict dress code on their employees who don't work in customer service? One boss said that engineers/designers/programmers feel more professional and become a lot more productive. Does this crap make any sense? I find formal clothing in workplaces is a form of slavery, and employees actually look like dickheads in their fancy dress code!Thanks for listening to my rant.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 02:47:46 pm
content: Wait until they introduce the "casual friday".

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 02:52:40 pm
content: Unity, synergy, teamwork, leveraging the long-term morale boost brought on by the mutual culture of professionalism, a joint effort to cultivate a beneficial hjrgp peonignepr mfasmlk _)(@*#$NO CARRIER

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 02:53:38 pm
content: Sorry, bit of a seizure there. What I meant to say was "They think that if you can have pride in your appearance and attitude, you will have pride in your work."

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 02:56:22 pm
content: QuoteI see I see...so they have the dickhead retard Dilbert mentality.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 02:58:11 pm
content: Or they're just trolling you. If I saw your little rant I'd be making you play dress-up for alongtime...Then again, I'd make a terrible manager. As for "casual Friday", my idea of Friday is "aw screw it, Friday's only four days away" and my idea of casual is "just make sure you're wearing pants".

author: dfmischler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 03:18:05 pm
content: I showed up at a client's place in San Diego in a shirt and tie and was told, "You can dress casual."So the next day I wore sneakers, Levi's and a "Frabo: fuer den Hundesport" T-shirt. One of the managers asked me what the hell that T-shirt meant? So I explained that I like training dogs, and Frabo makes dog training equipment, and so it was the equivalent of a golfer wearing a Titleist polo shirt. I guess he more or less bought it.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 03:24:22 pm
content: Or this:

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 03:29:11 pm
content: Quote from: Shenandoah on July 23, 2013, 02:32:48 pmTranslation "unemployment is high, I get to be a power tripping dick again without repercussions".

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 03:52:36 pm
content: It could be worse, I was in Japan some years back and employees at Matsushita had to get into uniform and sing the company song every morning.http://factsanddetails.com/japan.php?itemid=916

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 04:01:08 pm
content: Having lived in California for a while, I tend to do a double-take when I see anyone wearing a suit and tie during the day, anywhere, ever.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 04:05:30 pm
content: Quote from: gregariz on July 23, 2013, 03:52:36 pmSing the company song? Jesus....

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 04:09:39 pm
content: Where I work, the design engineers that work 8 to 5 usually wear slacks and a button up shirt and tie, or a knit shirt with the company logo or product on it. The boots on the floor engineers, office staff, and IT wear steel toed shoes and uniforms.When I say boots on the floor engineers, they either have a desk inside the manufacturing building but spend most of their time walking the floor resolving issues, or are liaison engineers who resolve issues where the cad drawings and parts lists don't quite match up or where they need to substitute a part. They spend about 50% of their time in the manufacturing facility and also wear steel toed shoes and uniforms.In a way, wearing the uniforms makes it easy, you get a new set every year, never have to think about what to wear.

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 04:15:53 pm
content: I work in biotech so I'm spoiled. Our VICE PRESIDENT wears jeans to work, in fact there have been days I have seen him just in jeans and a plain white tee.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 06:09:49 pm
content: I just wish people would take out their nose rings before coming to work...

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 06:34:33 pm
content: You missed this onehttp://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2004-11-07/

author: ResR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 06:43:13 pm
content: I work at the pig farm/meat product manufacture facility. I have clothes from employer, because the danger of carrying some desease with you from the work. And it is random shirts-jeans-shoes.I replace them every week due to the dust, stench and all kind of other smelly stuff that gets on it from basically everywhere.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 07:35:05 pm
content: Dress codes work. It provides an air of professionalism and order. I know people don't like it but in my experience, expecting people to wear a suit to work clearly delineates work from fun and looks good for customers as well.I enforce a dress code at my shop for everyone - folks on the shop floor and folks in the office too. It's not super strict but no sweats, printed t's, jeans, sneakers, etc.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 07:57:49 pm
content: You clearly have much more experience here than I do, but don't really see the need to "delineate work from fun". If work gets done, great!It's done. Nothing to worry about. If it doesn't get done, then you need to have a serious conversation with the people who can't be bothered to do what they're being paid to do.It seems really dishonest to me to come up with schemes to trick people into working. Either they work and they get paid, or they don't work and they get fired, simple as that.Yes, it looks good for customers, but I thought the whole premise of the thread was dress codes for people who do not interact with customers.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 07:57:49 pm
content: Unless you face or somehow interact with customers, dress codes are nothing but the owners/managers forcing their beliefs on you.Otherwise you wear what is safe for the workplace and non offensive to others. Comfort = Productivity and I'm only comfortable in Carhartt jeans.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 08:10:43 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 23, 2013, 07:57:49 pmIt's hard to explain...When I was young, I used to think "what difference does it make? As long as the job gets done?" and I applied that to times when I got in a bit late (but I justified it by staying for an even longer time than I was late by), and I applied it to my dress as well. I never understood why management disagreed and I thought it was just a stupid power trip thing and they didn't "get it".But being on the other side, now I see the value. When people are expected to meet a certain standard of dress, it sets a tone and expectation that a certain performance is expected. There is less fooling around, less personnel problems, less screwing off while on the clock and more courtesy among workers. I realize that "technically" it shouldn't matter, but it's one of those real world things where it does end up mattering. It's an overstated example, for sure, but I would say it's the same reason why the military is so strict about dress codes, even when soldiers are state-side on base.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 08:17:37 pm
content: It's done by the military cause they own your ass and they want you to know it.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 08:22:29 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on July 23, 2013, 08:17:37 pmNo, that's not true.It's because they want a standard that everyone meets - it's the same reason they enforce lots of other things like how you address a senior officer, how you address the public, how you behave in general, etc. It also encourages the notion that you are part of a larger entity, and it most definitely sets a tone and expectation for behavior.Dress codes are not just a bunch of stupid managers who like to come up with hoops for their employees to jump through - they are effective. That's why most companies have them. If it was more productive to let people wear whatever they wanted, then most companies would do that instead.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 08:26:36 pm
content: Quote from: gregariz on July 23, 2013, 03:52:36 pmIn the 50's that used to be common in the US as well (IBM for example).

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 08:27:45 pm
content: I couldn't disagree more. More and more companies have learned to let people be as long as they are doing their job, just look at Google. Your notion my have worked on the previous generation, but not any longer.Of the places I've worked:Duke Energy - The largest utility in the USSonyTRWNone required anything above jeans.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 08:41:22 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 23, 2013, 08:10:43 pmAnd yet nothing you said there contradicts what "young you" thought. Are you sure you've changed your mind, or just pushed your thoughts aside?I don't think it's a "power trip" thing, but Idothink it's misguided. Like I said, if the work gets done,it's done. Who cares if people "fool around"? You're going into this assuming that people visibly enjoying themselves is a bad thing, and I strongly disagree.The military holds people to a much higher standard of obedience and loyalty because it is necessary to have a much different, stricter mindset when you are at war and need to defend yourself, your fellow soldiers and your fellow citizens. When I am working for a business, I fully expect not to be treated like a soldier.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 09:35:14 pm
content: I've worked for a company with a military management style.I don't recommend it.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 09:37:56 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 23, 2013, 08:41:22 pmFrom a management standpoint, I care a lot if people fool around - because (without sounding like a dick) I don't want the "as long as it gets done, who cares?" decision being made by my employees. I decide what needs done and I employ them to make it happen. I deal with this stuff constantly... it is *extremely* difficult to find good hard working folks in the 18-35 range now. Texting while on the job is an epidemic, and many of these people can't comprehend how it could be possible not to have a cell phone on them. Their definition of "the job gets done" is often quite different from mine. Case in point - today I had asked our production manager/girl to make sure she screen printed some boards first, then afterwards she could do some CNC lathe work. She decided to do the lathe work first, but she didn't know I had asked her to do the screen printing first because a batch of parts were coming today for a rush order and someone else was waiting to run those boards she was going to print. From her perspective, it was OK as long as it all got done today, but it really wasn't OK.It may sound petty, or like a one-time incident, but it is my experience that letting little things slide turns into big things sliding, and equally, enforcing little things helps prevent having to enforce big things. When there is an understanding that "appropriate work attire" mean no jeans, no sneakers, no printed/collarless t-shirts and such, I most definitely find I need to do less babysitting on stuff like texting, taking excessive smoke breaks, monitoring lunch breaks. And there are less personnel issues. When everyone is wearing jeans and t-shirts, there is definitely more complaining about who said what, who was supposed to do this or that, etc. With everyone dressing appropriate for work, it happens less.I'm having a hard time putting it into words, but it's not just a generational thing (I ain't THAT old!). I think the fact that most of us would be surprised to walk into a bank or car sales lot and see someone serving us wearing sweats or jeans means that we all know there is a difference, whether we admit it or not.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 09:56:35 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 23, 2013, 09:37:56 pmI personally wouldn't care, but remember we're talking about non-customer, non-public type of jobs.Quote from: Corporate666 on July 23, 2013, 09:37:56 pmWhat does this mean? If they get it done, then what you "employed" them to do they did.I'm sorry, and not to offend, but with a forum username of Corporate 666 you sound just like you act!

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 09:57:46 pm
content: Well, at the risk of sounding like a dick myself, your example employee didnotget the job done. You asked it to be done in a certain order and that didn't happen. I'm sorry, but I don't think you're right that there's a causation between mandating "professionalism" and them actually listening to you, just a correlation. If you come across as generally picky and overly concerned with little things, they'll try harder to do exactly as you ask. Why not work more directly on teaching them to pay close attention to what is being requested of them? As before, I think it's sneaky and manipulative to trick them into behaving instead of telling them to. It doesn't matter if it works, it's wrong.Of course I'd be surprised if someone served me at a bank in sweats or jeans, because it's uncommon. I wouldn't pass judgment on them for it, though. But we've already established that we're just talking about people who don't deal with customers - I have no problem with dress codes for clerks and salespeople. Thosedodirectly correlate with job performance, since there's nothing you can do about your customers' prejudices.I fully expect employees of a car sales lot to be dressed in full hunting gear.Quote from: Corporate666 on July 23, 2013, 09:37:56 pmThis statement reminds so much me of my grandmother, a branch manager at a financial institution who micromanages so badly that she's only been able to keep one employee steadily for the past five years. The rest of them are all "problematic" (i.e., they don't get along with her).As a manager, it's not your job to make those decisions, it's your job to foster an environment in which you can trust other people to do it.

author: 4to20Milliamps
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 10:08:05 pm
content: My experience has been that the more valuable you are to a company the less they care how you dress, and places with a manager that has issues about petty things like what everyone wears have a high turn over.I don't want to play dress up at work, I want to be comfortable and if people feel comfortable wearing a hot suit with those thin crappy socks and a rope around their neck then more power to them.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 10:10:31 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on July 23, 2013, 09:56:35 pmEveryone says "I wouldn't care" but you would - you're just in denial. There is a reason politicians wear suits and executives wear suits. There *is* a difference and we all know it. The idea that there shouldn't be or whatever is irrelevant to the reality that there is a difference.Quote from: Corporate666 on July 23, 2013, 09:37:56 pmI sound like I act? And how do I sound and act? You think that telling my employees that they are not allowed to wear jeans/sneakers/t-shirts is "evil"?If we're making offensive snap judgements, from your post you sound like any of the dozens of 18-35 year olds who think they are owed a job with a good salary and who I let walk right back out the door.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 10:13:24 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 23, 2013, 10:10:31 pmNo, stop, now ontop of trying to tell me how to dress, you've stack on how I should feel as well!

author: 4to20Milliamps
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 10:20:45 pm
content: From what I've seen most politicians and ceo's are self absorbed d-bags on a severe power trip.I worked for an idiot that made comments about my shoes that would take us to lunch and shout so many obscenities it was embarrassing, if people knew what others really thought about them they wouldn't have such a high opinion of themselves.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 10:22:59 pm
content: If you don't like the dress code then work elsewhere or run your own business. There may be times where casual attire *might* be OK, but there are definitely times where at a minimum "business casual" but sometimes also "business formal" is Required.Invited to attend an executive meeting to demonstrate your awesome new product? That would be one of those "business formal" times.Meeting a customer for lunch? Thats in the "business casual minimum" or maybe even "business formal required" category.Currently, I work as a high-end consultant so when I am on-site with customers or at business meetings / conferences I am at least in sportcoat + pressed pants but often also with a tie. But I'm really good at what I do and get to pick and choose my projects - so I always pick projects where I can work from home for 90% of the time... where you will be lucky to find me in anything but my PJs. Yep, I'm wearing my PJ's right this minute. Don't be jelly.But there was also a time in my career (the early years in particular, but also again once I moved into consulting) where coat & tie was mandatory. I think it was a good policy, because of all the reasons Corporate666 brings up.A good rule of thumb is to always dress equal to or better than anyone else you encounter in a business setting.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 10:23:38 pm
content: edit: no reason to stir pots

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 10:26:36 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on July 23, 2013, 10:13:24 pmNot at all - I am just talking about reality.People say "I don't care how someone dresses", but human psychology says differently. Just like we think differently when a salesman (let's say a realtor) comes to our house driving a Ferrari vs driving a late model Ford Taurus vs driving a POS 1980's Honda Civic falling apart. We say appearances don't matter, but they do... and always have. That's why the clothing of anyone in sales is very deliberately chosen, as is that of people in government (especially politicians). It does matter and we all know it - whether we know it subconsciously or otherwise.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 10:28:12 pm
content: Also, all the folks reeling about the thought of having to dress in a professional manner... have you ever actually worked in a place that did in fact require it?I ask because I have worked in those places, and honestly people don't really mind it. If anything, it helps maintain focus and respect among coworkers. If you really want to work somewhere, then the dress code is irrelevant.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 10:28:20 pm
content: Quote from: MacAttak on July 23, 2013, 10:22:59 pmI am not surprised.... because....QuoteYou get it. And you nailed it.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 10:31:22 pm
content: Interacting with customers/vendors/the public/government/whatever is very different from interacting with coworkers. I worked with an engineer who wore shorts and dirty T-shirts to work every day. And I respected the hell out of him. Why? Because he knew his shit, he was a black magic expert. But guess what? When it's time for us to meet the vendors, him and me both put on our semi-formal business attire. Obviously. But when we're in the lab testing crap or building things? It doesn't matter.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 10:31:49 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 23, 2013, 10:26:36 pmYour reality yes, again not mine, my friends, my fellow co-workers, or my bosses.

author: skipjackrc4
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 10:33:19 pm
content: My manager was wearing shorts today, so...

author: 4to20Milliamps
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 10:33:48 pm
content: I guess I'm one of the lucky ones that doesn't need to dress to impress.Used car salesmen wear suits, it doesn't mean I have any respect for them.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 10:35:33 pm
content: Quote from: 4to20Milliamps on July 23, 2013, 10:33:48 pmQuote from: skipjackrc4 on July 23, 2013, 10:33:19 pmMy plant manager wears jeans and a t-shirt everyday.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 12:53:26 am
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on July 23, 2013, 09:35:14 pmI worked for a "company" where the military was the management!

author: SArepairman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 01:54:29 am
content: Its all a bunch of bullshit, I trust people who dress nice less, because it means they are trying to make an impression on you without you knowing them. and that they waste money on bullshit animalistic instincts.also you should try to better yourself by not judging people by how they look.You people say that it makes a difference, it would not if you took the effort to realize what is actually happening and not be razzled and dazzled like a zombie looking at fire works.we fight other instincts all the time.... judging by prisons some people can do it better then others of course.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 02:06:02 am
content: Don't be so judgmental. As silly as I think the whole thing is, many people are raised to dress "nicely" when something is important to them. When these people dress nicely for you, they are genuinely showing you that they take whatever it is seriously. Obviously, not everybody is like this, but you'd be surprised how many are.Quote from: SArepairman on July 24, 2013, 01:54:29 amPot, meet kettle.Damn, that comment was much more entertaining when you were still foaming at the mouth. Sometimes I hate the 'edit' button...

author: SArepairman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 02:06:37 am
content: I can raise a child to be a thief or a liar and be proud of it too.if people did not judge then there would be no point to dressing up. should be abolished already

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 02:08:12 am
content: Yep, clearly no difference at all. Raising someone to dress a certain way and raising someone to steal are exactly the same thing.Quote from: SArepairman on July 24, 2013, 01:54:29 amQuote from: SArepairman on July 24, 2013, 02:06:37 am

author: SArepairman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 02:09:17 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 24, 2013, 02:08:12 amraising someone to trick others into liking them by dress or trick others by lying to them...

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 02:10:55 am
content: If you want this thread to continue, keep it on topic and leave out the personal attacks.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 02:13:07 am
content: Quote from: SArepairman on July 24, 2013, 02:09:17 amYou're not raising them to trick others, that training comes from your manager (sorry C666). Most of these people are simply raised to dress nicely for important occasions because "that's what you're supposed to do", and in that case it really is just a sign that they took it seriously. It's the same reason I keep my car very clean - I'm not trying to fool anyone that it's a nice car, it's a damn 2000 Sonata. Nobody is stupid enough to think it's a nice car. But it's my car, I like it, and I want it to look as nice as it can. People treat their attire the same way.Quote from: GeoffS on July 24, 2013, 02:10:55 amWait... personal attacks? Who?

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 02:14:44 am
content: QuotePosts were deleted.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 02:19:27 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 23, 2013, 09:37:56 pmI was right there with you until you said "no jeans". Where is your company? Sounds like it's about 20 years behind California. I don't even own any pants that aren't jeans (and I'm over 50).Most importantly, jeans are low-ESD. If anything, you should ban artificial fibers.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 02:20:13 am
content: Quote from: edavid on July 24, 2013, 02:19:27 amPlease delete all my arguments and replace with this.On the topic of jeans - I'm sure it's regional, but I've never thought of them as especially poor attire. When I see sweatpants, my prejudicial tendency is "this person would rather be in bed right now". When I see jeans, I just think "yep, he's wearing pants"

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 02:50:22 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 24, 2013, 02:06:02 amThanks, this is pretty much the core of it. How you dress in a professional environment is a reflection of your level of respect for those around you. It's not about trying to "impress" anyone, but rather showing your own appreciation of their presence and their time. Same reason why you should always wear your best suit to an interview. The person(s) interviewing you are taking time out of their schedule to talk to you and potentially offer you employment.It is a fundamental aspect of business. When money is involved, people expect seriousness. And going through the trouble to dress well (including the other aspects of hygiene!) shows that you are serious about doing business with them.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 03:00:33 am
content: I work at a California company. I wore khakis and a button-up shirt for my interview. No tie. And I'll wear them again when I meet the CEO. Otherwise I wear jeans and a polo or T-shirt (including the "I only give negative feedback" shirt--thanks Dave!)

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 03:03:21 am
content: Quote from: MacAttak on July 24, 2013, 02:50:22 amNo, I just meant that you shouldn't judge someone to be sleazy and manipulative becausetheydress in business attire. You can try to argue that business attire is important, but that's not the point I was trying to make! Don't try to use my quote to take my jeans away....

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 03:41:32 am
content: I worked for a huge corporation where I had my own lab and I was the only person that normally was present. Didn't matter , dress code required, black pants, white shirt, black tie, black shoes. I hated the tie, always in the way when leaning over stuff. I tried to get it removed from the requirements saying it was a safety issue, overruled, was told to sew it to my shirt if it was an issue

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 06:07:58 am
content: My employer does not have an official dress code but then they are crap at any self determination as a company. I know one or two people have been given a talking too and i was given my cues from a collegue who just made fun of me for dressing down.I dress casual even now that I'm not on the shop floor and in the design office. I have noticed some people change the way they dress for example a chap got given project and suddenly changed the way he dressed although he was then dealing with customers and suppliers more. I don't make a huge effort but avoid printed Tshirts except a selected few and if I know I'm going out I make an effort and if I'm expecting a visit make sure I'm smart-ish.People will perceive you based on how you dress, i know its not nice but it is a fact of life and most people. fortunately my boss does not seem to have many hangups and sees the person not the clothes. i know his opinion and reliance on me has gone up without me dressing up but based on my performance. Even knowing and pointing out himself that I'm a bit dyslexic (he spotted a pattern in my mistakes on drawings) has not lowered his opinion of me, he gave me a bit of advice and pointed me to some resources and I've done my best to work around it.People dealing with customers should have a minimum of standard and you never know when you can end up dealing with someone.As for working hard ? yes that is a problem on our shop floor and has nothing to do with dress as standard smocks are issued and welders/solderer have to wear them for health and safety. It is down to bad management and people not being expected to do their jobs to a satisfactory standard or being disciplined when they make lazy mistakes. I have heard plenty of people say they don't care and as an excuse just blame the quality department for not being clairvoyant.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 09:35:19 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 23, 2013, 09:37:56 pmI would have thought that someone designated "production manager" would not need to be given "chapter & verse" on which sequence she should perform activities---"production assistant",maybe!If you had told her the reason for your required sequence,which would have only expended a couple of extra words,she would have not made the error.Even more radically,if she had known what was going on,you wouldn't have had to tell her.You seem to be stuck in a "time warp"!I began work in 1959,& retired a couple of years ago.In that time,I was never required to wear a suit,or to abide by any other dress code,other than 'clean & neat".My first Boss wore a suit,& some of the Office staff did,by choice,but apart from that everybody just dressed casually.When I got my first Technical job in 1965,the older guys spoke of how they had to wear shirts with a tie "back in the '40s & '50s",but open neck shirts & slacks/clean jeans were the norm by the time I joined the Company.My next job had the same policy,throughout the 24 years I spent with them.as did all my subsequent employers."Fool around"at work?----Many of the best (& most knowledgeable) workers I knew would continuously make jokes & rib each other throughout the day,but when it came to "getting the job done",they were deadly serious!!Bank or Car Sales lot?------You'd be hard pressed to find a Car salesman in a suit in Australia----neat casual has been pretty much the rule,since the 1970s---maybe in some of the big new car places.The (mostly female) employees of Oz Banks wear uniforms provided by the Bank.Can't remember what the last guy I saw at a Bank wore---certainly not his suit coat,but maybe shirt & tie.

author: ignator
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 10:34:28 am
content: Quote from: Shenandoah on July 23, 2013, 02:32:48 pmNext they will expect everyone to show up and work the official core working hours.I just retired, the dress code went from pressed slacks, dress shirt, and tie (1984), to anything but flip-flops. And the 7:30am to 4:30pm core hours went to anything you wanted, just needed to work your 8.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2013, 05:34:47 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on July 23, 2013, 04:01:08 pmwhen you walk in wearing a tie you get one warning ... the next time scissors come out...

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2013, 07:21:11 pm
content: I've worked in both types of environments.My experience is that the more focused management is on things that don't matter, like clothing, the less time they have to focus on the things that do matter.It may be the case that there are places where lack of attention to clothing just means lack of attention, period. Certainly, a company that ignores dress codes isn't automatically paying attention to the other things. But a company that is obviously devoting a lot of time on dress codes is pretty clearly not focusing on productivity, either.I chose my current employer because there really seemed to be a genuine attitude of paying close attention to what really matters (working together to get products out the door that work well and motivate customers to give us lots of money), while being very flexible around things that don't directly contribute to that goal. In fact, if it can keep good employees happy and working well, flexibility around the working environment is a really important goal to focus on.There was a time when our CEO was asked in front of an employee meeting about rumors that dress codes were coming. The response, "I'd say our dress code is this: If you deal with customers, try to look nice. If you don't deal with customers, just be clean. And if you're REALLY good at your job, you don't even have to be so clean."

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2013, 08:25:22 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on July 24, 2013, 09:35:19 amSo when you were the CEO of your company, everything always went smoothly, nobody ever made a mistake, and this is your basis for criticism?In the real world, stuff happens. People sometimes do things thinking it doesn't make a difference, but it does. That was what I was illustrating. Empowerment and striving for a fun workplace is great for people who don't have to sign the checks at the end of the week.QuoteClean and neat *is* a dress code. And the idea that having a dress code for work is a relic of the past is nonsense. There is a plurality of people right now working in white collar jobs where "anything goes" is not allowed in terms of work attire. Upwardly mobile people have always understood that you dress for the job you want, not the job you have. Dress is just one tool of many in the toolbox of an individual... people ignore it at their peril. Some people think spelling and grammar don't matter these days, and folks who dote on such are living in the past - I disagree, and consider it also another tool in the toolbox.Quote"no fooling around" does not mean people are not allowed to make jokes - you misunderstand what I am saying. What I am saying is that I do not agree with (nor allow) this mentality of "work hard, play hard" that was fashionable in the dot-com world for a while, until dot-commers matured into businessmen and realized it had no place in the workplaceI had a job once where they had a pool table, ping-pong, video arcade games, couches and Nintendo set up in some kind of romper room. There was always a lot of horsing around in the office... playing pranks, people "taking a break" to play Doom 2 at their desk. Didn't last long (the company, I mean)QuoteNeat casual is a dress code. Uniforms provided by the bank are a dress code. But when I refer to bankers, I'm not talking about tellers earning entry level wages. I'm talking bankING - aka, the industry. I've never been to a VC meeting where jeans and a t-shirt are acceptable. I'd never go to meet an investor in sweats and a gym shirt. They wouldn't take me seriously. And there's a reason for it. Because appearances matter - including dress.Some of you guys are taking the point too far and imagining some kind of corporate iron fisted rule. That's not the case.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2013, 08:29:44 pm
content: Seems to me you're backpedaling on your position.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2013, 09:32:35 pm
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on July 26, 2013, 08:29:44 pmYou probably didn't understand my position then. What I said is consistent and exactly right.Dress codes work. Engineer types tend to be the most resentful of dress codes, but also tend to make the worst executives, so it's a foregone conclusion that they would hate dress codesThere is a reason most companies have a dress code, and why most of them are not "jeans and t-shirt are fine". It's easy to dismiss it as a bunch of old stodgy guys who don't "get it", but then again, do the people who criticize really "get it" themselves?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 01:44:12 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 26, 2013, 08:25:22 pmMost of us don't breathe the same rarified air that you do,& the most likely Banker we will talk to is our local Bank Manager,who will probably be in shirtsleeves & with a tie-unlikely to wear a suit coat.What happened to the car salesmen?

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 01:48:39 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 26, 2013, 09:32:35 pmIf you are unable to communicate your position clearly--laying out relevant points in a way that is understandable to the people listening--then I have to question if you actually have real business experience in anything other than "push-button" industries, as communication is a core skill for any real entrepreneur. And there's more to communication than just spelling and grammar.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 03:34:46 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 26, 2013, 08:25:22 pmTo call a social contract where you can wear anything from birkenstocks to sneakers and anything from jeans to corduroy a dress code is just making the term useless for this discussion ... in context it's clearly not what's meant with dress code by most in this thread (and language is defined by use in context, not by dictionaries ... and certainly not by any single person).

author: WarSim
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 04:34:53 am
content: Dress codes are important.For example if one day there several extra suits are hanging around the work areas, everyone knows they should get out their kneepads. Chances are the company just hired a bunch of extra managers to figure out what workers they can fire.

author: WarSim
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 05:06:22 am
content: On the serious side, dress codes are a management crutch. Yes I admit I did it I did fall into this trap in my early management years. In the years since I have seen far more people in trouble for over dressing than under dressing. People naturally want to dress according to how they feel and how they see themselves in a group. A dress code draws lines between groups. Used to elevate some and push down others.Every senior manager should have 3 changes of clothes in their office. Suit when they represent the company. Business attire for everyday work. Casual for when they want meaningful interaction with their workers. Expecting an honest answer from a worker when you are wearing a suit is just silly. Converse is true, if you are firing someone you better be wearing a suit. Firing someone in casual attire is a needless insult.Because it was brought up earlier. In the military when the real work is done, everyone wears the same thing. The only difference is semi obscured rank insignia. The prim and proper uniforms are for show, so the military can show their employers (the public) they respect what they have been given. Dress for day to day work is 100% designed for practical purposes (safety identification, etc). Combat dress same thing plus other factors (survival, environmental, etc). Every inch is a certain way for a reason, non-of the design reasons are to segregate, although a few try to use them too.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 05:47:22 am
content: Quote from: Marco on July 27, 2013, 03:34:46 amBut it is a dress code. Just because the boundaries are large doesn't mean there aren't any. Step over the boundaries and you face consequences.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 03:09:32 pm
content: IMO a code has at least some boundaries which can be tested objectively ... bucking social conventions always has consequences, in the workplace and outside of it, but convention is not code.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 03:29:21 pm
content: Dress codes are indeed a thing of history, most have learned forcing people into false puppets is BS and counter productive.. Of the past few dozen engineers I've interviewed, 90+ % didn't wear a suit, 50% had on jeans.Arguing jeans is a dress code means getting up and putting on underwear is as well, makes the term useless.I'll be sure and email Dave, telling him he is being less productive wearing jeans in his videos.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 03:35:00 pm
content: Check out all of these guys at JPL being unproductive and unorganized without their Khakis:

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 03:44:47 pm
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on July 27, 2013, 01:48:39 amI did communicate my position clearly. You don't understand simple concepts like "no t-shirts, no sweats, no sneakers"? Sounds more like you have angst towards management. Maybe things in your career didn't turn out the way you wanted and you are holding a grudge?

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 03:54:25 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on July 27, 2013, 01:44:12 amTelling someone I want something done is "micromanaging every little thing"? Some of you guys are dramatically overstating your case, to the point of silliness.QuoteNot sure I get your point here.QuoteIt is what I indicated earlier, but it may not have been what you perceived. Go back and see my earlier posts - I said no sneakers, no jeans, no printed t-shirts, no sweatpants.QuoteDealing with business people is not "rarified air". Do you go to a job interview in jeans and a t-shirt? If you go to meet your attorney and your banker about a business line of credit, do you wear sweatpants and a sleeveless denim shirt? Of course not. Maybe you live in an area where car salesmen wear sweatpants and t-shirts, but around here they don't. "Business casual" is a minimum (meaning, no jeans, no t-shirts), and equally (if not more) common would be at least dress pants and a shirt (short sleeve would be OK).Maybe some of you guys are equating "dress code" with "3 piece suit" - if so, that is a grossly incorrect take on what I am saying. Dress code means a set level of formality (from very formal, in industries like banking and government) to casual-formal - like the standard "no jeans, no sneakers, no t-shirts" standard the vast majority of companies enforce and which is a bare minimum across almost all executives.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 04:04:52 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on July 27, 2013, 03:35:00 pmSo we have proof that JPL engineers can wear jeans and t-shirts when testing out equipment in the (dirty) field. Which proves....... that it's accepted to dress down when in a "messy" environment.Want to take a guess what every one of those engineers wore when they interviewed for their job? Or what their boss wears to the office?They have a pic of their director on their websitehttp://www.jpl.nasa.gov/about/What's that blue thing on his chest? And that strange brown thing on top of it?He might not have got the memo that dress doesn't matter in the modern business worldAnd their executive board definitely did not get the memo!http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/about/exec.cfmThe men all seem to be wearing noose-like objects around their neck, and the same strange clothing that the director is wearing.These people are obviously all just not smart enough to realize that they are living in the past, and that dress does not matter in the modern world. Surely someone from here should contact them and educate them?Kidding aside, the video you posted and pics I referenced in my links perfectly illustrate the "dress for the job you want, not the job you have" mantra that is so often said because it's true.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 04:49:19 pm
content: One second you're talking about "clean and neat"; which I think is pretty clear means, uh, what was it again? Oh yes, not filthy and not messy.Then you turn around and say, "no t-shirts, no sweats, no sneakers". Sorry, those two phrases don't mean the same thing.This is what my programmer buddy calls "thrashing". I call it hilarious, in a schadenfreudian kind of way.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 06:58:31 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 27, 2013, 04:04:52 pmYou apparently missed the post where I said engineers don't wears suits to interviews anymore, of the last few dozen I've interviewed.The last three EE jobs I got, I wore jeans and a T-shirt, the last being a Sr. spot. I'm now out on my own and NEVER wear anything more than jeans, my customers don't care and I've got more work than I can do.The JPL guys are no less productive in jeans. If you hire the right people you won't have to resort to childish tactics to get productivity.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 07:40:51 pm
content: I turned up for my last interview in slacks, a button-up blue shirt, and nice shoes. No suit, no tie.The department head was confused as to why I was so overdressed.I got the job because I impressed the department head with my industry knowledge, impressed the team leader with some innovative product thinking, and satisfied the senior consulting engineer that I knew my flybacks from my forwards. Plus I have a solid reputation in the field and some good references (including a vice president of one of the company's vendors, for one).Wearing a T-shirt probably would not have affected my odds either way. Wearing a suit and tie might have hurt my odds, by making me appear stuffy.In some industries and some circles, with some companies, maybe dress matters. But in the larger part of the engineering industry, and especially west of the Rockies, jeans and T-shirt is the expected attire, and people who wear suits are stuffy and out-dated.And by the way, west of the Rockies doesn't just mean California. It also means China and Taiwan.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 08:07:27 pm
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on July 27, 2013, 07:40:51 pmEnough said.</thread>You also said you would dress up when the CEO is coming around. Which illustrates what we all knew all along, regardless of bickering over it. Dress matters.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 08:23:33 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on July 27, 2013, 06:58:31 pmExcept your own example of productivity without regard to dress has ALL of the executives of the organization dressed in business suits for their public facing persona.So it's either companies who enforce dress codes have a foolishly misguided method of trying to squeeze productivity when they just made the wrong hiring choices....or......dress does matter and some really smart people, like all the higher ups at JPL realize this.If the former, you should get into management consulting and get rich teaching those idiots at places like JPL how they can have happier and more effective employees by doing away with their antiquated ideas of dressing up for work.And kidding aside, if you have more work than you can do, you need to raise your prices.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 08:40:36 pm
content: It's like arguing with a creationist, except sadder because you clearly know you're wrong but can't admit it.Want to know the difference between dressing up for an interview, and having a dress code? It's like the difference between ordering a steak at a restaurant, and doing the Atkin's diet.It's like the difference between watchingSpirited Away, and being an anime nerd.It's the difference between enjoying a nice cold beer, and chugging an entire keg.Not a single person here has opposed dressing up on occasion and in certain contexts. Not a single person has denied that there is a psychological effect imparted by wearing nice clothes. The only reason you might think that is because of your internal dishonesty. You're the only person here dumb enough to think that wearing nice clothes 24/7 magically improves productivity. Maybe if you're supervising a bunch of entry-level sales people straight out of college who need to be reigned in? But if you're dealing with professionals in a professional environment, who aren't interacting with customers, then it simply does not matter. Especially in the engineering fields, where the culture is often flat-out opposed to formal dress.Your attempt to equivocate dressing up for an interview with adhering to a dress code is flat-out disingenuous, and you've destroyed all of your credibility on management matters by pushing this argument in the fashion that you have. I really honestly have seen less dishonesty from young earth creationists trying to say that dinosaurs and humans coexisted.Really, just go piss off and suck on a cactus. I'm done.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 09:20:03 pm
content: Dress code can be mandatory. Like in a cleanroom. Everybody wears the same and it is company supplied (down to your underwear... As it has all to be dust free and antistatic)But in the office ? I go in wearong shorts, shirt and boat shoes. No problemo. Visit a customer, switch to a pair of jeans. Done. Although somoe of our customers come to high profile meetings (high profile as in all the marketing suits are there) wearing flipflops.... So what ? It's california. It's not the clothing that speaks but what you do.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 09:55:57 pm
content: Even Corp (I feel like I should be calling you by your first name) can't argue that formal dress codes are evaporating, regardless of their effectiveness.Eventually he will accept that dress doesn't make more widgets, especially as workforce attrition brings in the younger folks.Andy

author: WarSim
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2013, 10:35:21 pm
content: I know of a business that is about to loose an entire departments capabilities because of their inability to get out of the stoneage. We have tried to tell them over and over, but no effect. Now the employees are just organizing their departures, to their mutual benefit. These are very specialized skills that take over a decade in a closed industry to gain.It is a shame but when faced with fear of change, rationality takes a back seat.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2013, 08:08:06 am
content: "Dealing with business people is not "rarified air". Do you go to a job interview in jeans and a t-shirt? If you go to meet your attorney and your banker about a business line of credit, do you wear sweatpants and a sleeveless denim shirt? Of course not. Maybe you live in an area where car salesmen wear sweatpants and t-shirts, but around here they don't. "Business casual" is a minimum (meaning, no jeans, no t-shirts), and equally (if not more) common would be at least dress pants and a shirt (short sleeve would be OK). "The last few times I was employed after an interview where I wore a casual trousers & a short sleeved shirt.----pretty much corresponding to your "business casual".My Banker?----He already knows all there is to know about my ability to pay,so I don't have to impress him.In any case,heis sellingmea service which he expects to ultimately be paid for.My "attorney "?---I'm paying for his time,anyway!Should I dress up to buy a hamburger from McDonalds?Did I say car salesmen wear sweatpants & t-shirts?They may well wear tennis shirts,dress jeans,& Hush Puppies,though!---neat casual.

author: WarSim
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2013, 08:39:51 pm
content: Yes I do.I have gotten a job offer from every interview I have ever done. Every job search resulted in my deciding between three offers. Because I always apply to three places just incase I ever do fail an interview.Never tried to wear sweat pants to a bank meeting. But as for credit I have refused more credit than I have accepted. IMHO it is crazy how much credit a bank will extend. Why in the world would I want to offer $50k unsecured and 200% of equity secured. If i had a pay off a house here that is easily 1million secured credit. Extended credit is 100% credit score not attire in my experience.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2013, 09:10:32 pm
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on July 27, 2013, 08:40:36 pmI'm dumb...and you're a worker bee power supply designer for Cooler Master who didn't know that making a constant current buck converter will have power dissipation issues with a high ref voltage. I think you have more to worry about than me!You've never managed a department or a company, so what is your basis for "knowing" that dress codes are dumb and don't work, and "knowing" that all the companies who have them just aren't as good at business as you - the worker bee electronics guy? Get over yourself. Sounds like you have angst issues with management. Not my fault things didn't work out for you.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2013, 09:13:05 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on July 27, 2013, 09:55:57 pmFirstly, I never said mandating a certain level of dress means more widgets. And if you think "more widgets" is the only metric worth measuring, then you misunderstand why all these companies have a dress code.Your own example proved the point. You held up JPL as an example. And all of the higher ups are dressed up.Really, that's sort of the end of the debate, I think.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2013, 09:17:19 pm
content: I find it interesting that you actually took the time to look up where I work. I mean, I'm not trying to hide it or anything, I did post it a while back, but it's pretty creepy nonetheless. Unless you have averygood memory, you probably had to search for that shit. Um, yeah.Better be aware what vibes you're puttin' off man.Also, you're not a fucking psychologist. Get over yourself, bucko.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2013, 09:21:27 pm
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on July 28, 2013, 09:17:19 pmI didn't look up anything - you posted it in another thread I was reading. I also remember you posting about how you had no idea that making a buck converter into constant current would cause dissipation issues.And you're a power supply designer?You ought to focus on learning electronics before you profess to be an expert on managing companies.Like I said, it's obvious you have angst issues towards management. I have seen it a thousand times and I know precisely where that sort of hatred comes from. As I said, not my fault that things aren't working out for you.Guess you weren't done with the thread after all, huh?

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2013, 09:26:11 pm
content: Back when I had a real job (work for myself now) our dress codes were generally "dress appropriately", and that's at every company I worked. So when I'm spending most of my time in the lab or crawling around on the floor, maybe jeans and a t-shirt....a NICE t-shirt without any stupid slogans of pictures, not some old, faded Star Wars t-shirt from 1979....was perfectly OK. When I'm just working mostly in the office or contracting at a customer site, casual but neat....usually button up shirt or golf shirt....neat jeans OK. When the customer is visiting and I'm giving a presentation, dress casual....slacks of some sort, button up shirt. When I was working in the dessert out of our small satellite office, shorts and a t-shirt were fine..who cares?I don't know what all of this did for my production but I will tell you for a fact as a former engineer and former manager that when I see someone dressed inappropriately for the situation, I think to myself that this is a man that can not be trusted with responsibility and I had better keep him on a short leash.So I think dress codes are generally stupid but only because I think people should be smart enough to know what's appropriate. If you wear shorts to your banking job, I'm going to think you're an idiot, but I'll also think you're an idiot if you're an engineer and you show up in a grey, 3 piece suit.So I guess to make my point really explicit, there is ALWAYS a dress code, whether it's written policy or not. If you're too oblivious to figure it out, or too dumb/contrary to follow it, people will notice and think less of you, and that's just how it is, just as if you didn't shower and you showed up stinking every day.

author: WarSim
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2013, 09:53:54 pm
content: It is all about knowing who you are talking to an for what purpose.Old IBM interview pressed slacks shirt tie.New Google interview slacks/new denim golf shirt.By the way all the public stuff I did for IBN in the 90's was a company golf shirt as per their dress code.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2013, 10:16:20 pm
content: Dress codes in my mind go strictly together with "no nonsense"-business-culture, which varies from company. I've been at some companies with dress codes like "neat and tidy" which is fine by me. It didn't said what it was, but I usually wear button-up shirts , jeans and T-shirts. I don't even have a suit appropriate for work.My colleagues do the same. One colleague that is doing customer support is always wearing button-up shirts, but then again finds the need to drive a bigger car than the boss. I personally find he is behaving a bit toady. Some other colleagues wear "mr. happy" T-shirts or sweaters. They are very enthusiast colleagues with good idea's and insights whenever I have a point for discussion. Why would you 'deny' that?However if one would strictly force and nitpick on these kind of issues, it would be a boss I would like to say 'goodbye' to ASAP. In my experience these little things have a negative impact on the atmosphere at the office, creates a 'rushing' mindset which provokes stress, denies creativity and reduces productivity.As I am only a sample size of 1 (I am not yet plural, although kinda overweight), this is not factual and only an experience.