Is there a market for low cost PCB assembly? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: RonSV
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 01:49:26 pm
content: Hi,I see a lot of people offering to do low cost PCB prototypes, but there is not much for low cost PCB assembly for 10 boards. I am thinking of starting something along these lines, but I would like to see if there is a market for this?What I plan to target is part sourcing and pcb assembly. I am not really sure if it makes sense to do or not. Hobbyists, could you please let me know?The kind of assembly I am thinking about is automated SMT assembly and not manual soldering. I think manual soldering would work out cheaper, so maybe start something out related to manual assembly and then move onto automated assembly?How much would you be ready to pay for fully assembled boards? I am thinking about 100USD(assembly + part sourcing + PCB) for 2 layer boards . Does anyone have any suggestions?Is there a market for this sort of thing currently?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 01:53:18 pm
content: I understand Microfab* is currently doing about that. Which seems remarkable to me, being a US company.*I thought it was Microfab. This doesn't appear to be the thing I was thinking of. Please correct me...)I suppose I'll air one dubious concern... if you're from India, then how will you deal with international shipping, design security, and so on?Tim

author: RonSV
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 02:02:24 pm
content: Well , most PCB's will be made in China. I have logistics and shipping agents, in place . I am also in the process of building a website to handle orders and payment will be via paypal and bitcoin(to add the artistic touch) . I was building a couple of boards with a Spartan 6 TQG144 and thats where the idea actually originated. Although the pitch is actually fine , i couldnt not solder it completely. And this was just 1 IC with a spacing of 0.5mmhttp://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/package_specs/tq144.pdfDo you think there is a market for this sort of thing?

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 02:40:23 pm
content: I think there is a market for cheap pcbs + placement of a few difficult parts. For example, if you'd like to use a really tiny micro (CSP BGA) it would be neat if you could receive it already soldered to the board. Other parts can just be soldered by the end-user. Not sure how much margin there is thoughAlso would be good if you'd like to use a $100 ADC and $80 FPGA without risking all that money soldering with a $20 hot air gun

author: cowana
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 02:52:30 pm
content: I'd agree the useful thing would be the areas out of reach of hobbyists - BGA assembly (especially with xray inspection) would be very useful.Simpler work (0603s/0805s, parts with visible legs etc) just aren't going to be worth your time. Assuming 10USD for 10 boards, and 8USD per board for parts, your estimated price of 100USD for 10 PCBs, components and assembly would only leave you 1USD per board for assembly.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on April 01, 2016, 01:53:18 pmThink you mean Macrofab

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 11:40:54 am
content: We, IconicPCB already offer low volume SMD assembly service in Brisbane.

author: LPaul
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2016, 06:38:02 am
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on April 03, 2016, 11:40:54 amI assume that low volume SMD assembly might be aimed at hobbyist/semi-pro, your website definetly does not qualify (no price calculator or even a hint of price range).Funny how, in 2016, some company might just as well have a page in a phonebook instead of a website.Element14 offered such service not so long ago, did they stop?

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2016, 07:57:05 am
content: Lpaul,I appreciate Your point of view apropos the website.The website can not handle bespoke work readily.Costing of service is never s simple matter of a look up table because each proposal is specific and unique.If You aim to purchase on price only I certainly do not intend to sell on price. I do not live in a market where price is the only normative.Let me put it another way.... Sell on price, live on rice. That will come about soon enough in all spheres of daily life although I hope not in my lifetime.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 05, 2016, 08:10:21 am
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on April 03, 2016, 11:40:54 amInteresting. Can you share an example?

author: LPaul
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2016, 08:44:31 am
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on April 05, 2016, 07:57:05 amthank you! I have to learn this one, it's excellent!Absolutely don't mean to argue with your answer, just providing feedback.I agree that developed countries have to focus on quality. Yet do I really have to prepare a complete description of the job, contact you and wait days, perhaps weeks, to get a quote?There is no relation between doing expensive quality work and providing public price.We have this very same issue in Europe, companies in France and Germany (the one I work with) still believe that public prices are bad for their sales.It's not about giving price table like $.01 per pcb pad, but having a general idea of the price range without the whole process of opening a business account/asking for a quote.I cannot understand why saying: "We have non-recurring fee of $100-1000 per batch, you can except a cost of around $YYYY/($ZZZ per board) for our small batch pcb assembly within contraints of our assembly line" is so hard.The whole issue is: cheap Chinese/Indian/... manufacturers give a price (much like a range). You don't. So potential customers have to contact you, provide precise information and hope they get a timely quote. Or they assume you are totally overprice and go to the next supplier.Usually good quality is not that expensive but since the price is not public, a lot of people assume it is.///On the subject of the post, I would totally pay a couple hundred euros to have a proto run with small pitch QFN/BGA reliably soldered. To get that in a timely manner and avoid shipping fees, it would probably have to be done either near the PCB manufacturer or near me (like what Dave used to do for his µCurrent).Then again, what kind of margin can be expected considering the big non-recurring fees of pnp machines?Perhaps relying on a fixed set of component, with a limited number of custom parts for each customer would reduce that. Still handling/buying customers' parts would be a big issue.A good idea in theory, probably not so much in practice... (to make low cost pcb assembly, not quick, high-quality assembly like Iconic does).

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2016, 12:19:26 am
content: Lpaul,You are welcome. I came across it in the early eighties. I was working at BWD instruments. The then marketing manager used to use it.Apelly, certainly.I have attached a modified BOM showing component footprint listing and quantity of components.The BOM is for a DOUBLE SIDED assembly.We manufactured the two stencils in house and assembled 15 boards over a three day time frame.Total cost ex our works including GST ( VAT ) was under AUD2350.-- for a first time run.A civilised offering.To use the cricket catch cry...how's that!First edit: did not attach the P&P information.. to do of the morningSecond edit: attached a listing of footprints and number of each

author: beaker353
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2016, 05:53:07 pm
content: I've used Macrofab in Texas for a number of small runs and prototypes when I didn't want to fight with tiny and/or tiny pitch components. As long as you can stand a 15 day lead time they are a great and their prices are very reasonable. Amazing online quote system gives you the exact price and all the options you would want.- EMSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 11:16:17 pm
content: Lpaul,I do not think the public pricing is bad per se. I amof the opinion sales are not generated through public pricing therfore public pricing is a waste of effort from my point of view as ilustrated by this thread.A request was made, a response was generated .. and nothing...Dont get me wrong I am not expecting a flood of requests.. but at the same time i might have had more fun getting flooded pissing in to the wind.That would have at least generated some kind of feedback if You see what i mean.

author: Icchan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2016, 10:14:17 pm
content: Yes there is.I had to hand assemble 0402 sized components and small pitch QFN packages and flat flex connectors to 10+ PCB's that were less than 2 sqm in size each... and only because assembly costs would have been prohibitive. and this was thefirstprototype.Thing is, that SMD is here to stay and even simple things need to be exceedingly small even in prototype phase.If the cost of assembly in small quantities continues to be expensive it's going to slow down many projects that don't have the budget and then someone has to be there with hot air station and steady hand to put those things in place. (we didn't have an oven to use unfortunately).

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2016, 10:55:56 pm
content: Icchan,Since You are in Finland, a land and a market diametically opposed to Australia, may be you ought to post some costings the industry is faced with in Finland as Comparative SMD Assembly Costing 101.What I am talking about is Cost Accounting for projects involiving highly skilled personel and high tech equipment and processes.I think it is not unreasonable to suggest an Engineer and a Technician may be involved in the process.So lets start with the costs of employing these two people.An employer needs to pay the wages, insurance plus retirement benefits plus.. what ever else in FinlandThe the depreciation of equipment and infrastructure assets needs to be looked at.The cost of keeping the factory open now comes into play.And last and most important profit margin on above and any other incidental costs .I also have to note.... ENGINEERS WERE ORIGINAL ACCOUNTANTS.. having had to justify viability of a business undertaking... believe it or not.This thought experiment is open to any other interested reader to contribute towards erudition of other members of the forum.