Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: hap2001
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2023, 05:48:22 am
content: Hi. Just a open discussion here.Cooled MWIR cameras are known for their outstanding performance comparing to uncooled LWIR cameras in the same era. But due to their price, it's usually not pratical to get a new or modern one, if you are paying it yourself (not your company). Some older ones are affordable, but they are so rare comparing to uncooled cameras.However after a longtime wait and watch, I just have a new question: Even if you're lucky enough to get a working one with reasonable price, and you don't care about the size, would the old cooled camera performance really beat modern uncooled cameras? By how much?Welcome to discuss.

author: nikitasius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2023, 08:49:48 am
content: Just share my 2 cents andSWIR pricecheck 3y ago.If MWIR have same usage "popularity" (i see only "contact us" for the pricing..), i'm afraid it could be same, but, hope i'm wrong.

author: Wildseyed
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 05, 2023, 04:24:04 pm
content: When it comes to vintage cooled mid-wave vs new tech uncooled long-wave thermal cameras, the key advantage of the cooled camera is sensitivity. In all other areas, the newer camera will out preform.Let's compare an Indigo Merlin ($1,899.00) built in ~2000 versus a moderately priced FLIR A700 ($4,454.00), versus INFIRAY P2 Pro ($270.00)1. Sensitivity: Merlin NETD 10-20mK, A700 NETD 30-50mK, P2 Pro <50mK.2. Resolution and frame rate: Merlin 320 x 240@60Hz, A700 640 x 480@30Hz (Spec says 60Hz, but this is not possible to achieve because the A700 lack Jumbo Packet support), P2 Pro 256 x 192@25Hz.3. Interfacing: Merlin requires a separate Pleora LVDS to Ethernet interface (iPort?). A700 Streaming uses Genicam/GigE Vision over ethernet. A700 Smart streams RTSP and ONVIF over ethernet, MODBUS, EthernetIP. P2 Pro features a proprietary image format streamed over USB-C. The camera can be made to appear as a USB Composite device, making it essentially a web cam.4. Special Features: The Indigo sports analog video output, so you can connect it to composite analog video displays. It also has a detachable control pendant for navigating menus to enable features like overlays. There is also an RS-232 serial port. The FLIR A700 can have several features active (Streaming, Smart, EST, Color Visible camera, GPS, etc.) depending on the firmware it is running. This is only installable by FLIR at this time. P2 Pro comes with a detachable Macro lens.Other tidbits:Some sterling coolers from back in the day are still functioning. I have one. This is quite rare in newer FLIR cooled cameras, whcih tend to need servicing after 2 - 5 years.Thermal cameras from China with decent NETD values are a relatively new thing. I'm not sure when it happened, but the quality is really on par these days. You can also get broad band cameras from some vendors, which has many special applications.

author: nikitasius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2023, 07:29:02 pm
content: Infiray P2 pro it's a LWIR camera.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2023, 09:44:09 pm
content: This article may answer some of your questions…….https://www.acalbfi.com/sites/default/files/2021-09/MWIR_or_LWIR.pdfMWIR cameras remain quite a specialist product and usually cost more than uncooled Microbolometer based LWIR cameras (unless you find a used bargain). The MWIR spectrum does offer a different spectral view of a target but whether that is enough to justify the added cost comes down to the use scenario. Cooled MWIR cameras remain a firm favourite for long range thermal surveillance.I own a few cooled MWIR cameras and they are things of beauty in terms of their engineering and low noise, but a modern Uncooled Microbolometer based LWIR camera would meet the general needs of most civilian and non specialist users these days. My cooled FLIR SC4000 MWIR/SWIR science camera was originally purchased to image and measure targets through both toughened glass and visibly opaque ceramic plates. For that application there was no other option but to buy a very specialist MWIR camera with the optional extended SWIR coverage that was a special order. The cost ?….. around $150K plus taxes and duties for import to the UK. At that sort of cost, your need has be be justifiable. The SC4000 is also capable of very high frame rates to image fast moving objects and this is another specialist realm not normally covered by common general use LWIR cameras.Another feature of cooled MWIR cameras is the ability to use slower (smaller) optics due to greater sensitivity. From memory my SC4000 has a stated thermal sensitivity of 18mK. Cooled thermal cameras normally produce very clean low noise images that do not require the advanced video processing and noise reduction that is essential for decent uncooled Microbolometer based imaging systems. With modern image processing the noise may be greatly reduced in the microbolometer based system but we do need to consider the purity of the result if using a thermal camera in a demanding science or industrial application. Sometimes an image can undergo too much processing and may not be as desirable in some use scenarios. Pretty pictures Vs highly accurate radiometric imaging. I always advise caution when reading manufacturers NETD specifications. That is a specification that can be somewhat misleading, especially when one manufacturer is trying to ‘out-spec’ their competition. You may also see a statement after the NETD stating that it is “post processing” which can be confusing.I personally could not justify buying a cooled MWIR thermal camera, even a used one, for my present imaging needs. To be honest, even an inexpensive entry level 256 x 192 pixel LWIR dongle camera like the P2 Pro could meet my electronics repair needs. I am retired now so do not need the cutting edge technology anymore. Where I differ from the generic user is in my interest in the technology and my collecting of the equipment used for thermal imaging over the years. I absolutely love fine engineering and that is often to be found in older thermal cameras that cost a small fortune to buy new.There is little doubt that a modern LWIR thermal imaging camera can produce the required results in most general applications, if of adequate resolution. Specialist applications sometimes require more specialist cameras as you would expect.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2023, 09:45:41 pm
content: This thread may also be of interest. Buying a cooled thermal camera can come with risks……..https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/thermal-camera-purchasing-the-perils-of-buying-a-cooled-camera/msg702367/#msg702367Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2023, 09:48:28 pm
content: The FLIR SC4000 purchase thread……https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/high-speed-thermal-imaging-cameras-when-60fps-is-just-not-enough-!/

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 01:12:32 am
content: depends on your use case. For my intended use case which is filmmaking with human subjects, it's a vastly different look. The lower nosie does enable you to see more detail. But the whole world becomes slightly more reflective and less emissive.Dual band cameras aren't available to consumers, but would be extreme interesting for actually producing 'color'.And there is also the chance for higher resolutions. There are cooled cameras at 1280x720 and more, while uncooled usually exists VGA or XGA on the high end. A single product at 1920x1200 exists but isn't affordable.

author: hap2001
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 05:29:56 am
content: Thank you all! It's interesting to read them.I was thinking about more extreme compares, for example, a 70mk Cooled vs 30mk Uncooled...I've heard they are rated for different aperture, so no matter the numbers, cooled are always superior than uncooled?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 03:05:33 pm
content: There is a lot written about MWIR vs LWIR and NETD measurement on the internet.This article is an interesting read…….https://sierraolympia.com/what-is-netd-and-why-does-it-matter/FLIR description of NETD measurement…….https://www.flir.co.uk/support-center/instruments2/how-is-nedt-measured/Comment from Movitherm……..https://movitherm.com/knowledgebase/netd-thermal-camera/#:~:text=The%20expression%20stands%20for%20%E2%80%9CNoise,thermal%20radiation%20in%20the%20image.Basically, there is opportunity for an OEM to make a Microbolometer NETD appear better than it would be in normal use and MWIR cameras with detectors cooled to -196C will normally outperform any microbolometer in terms of NETD in the same configuration. You pay a premium for that gain however ! This is why I stated that the purchase of a cooled MWIR needs to be justified. The additional capabilities of a MWIR camera may be completely wasted in some generic scenarios, whilst absolutely essential in others.Where videography is concerned, there is the advantage of shutterless operation with a cooled camera but some microbolometer based cameras now offer shutterless operation. Note however that the microbolometer tends to suffer drift issues over time and the FFC is used to correct for drift and clean up the image. Without an FFC event a microbolometer can suffer a degraded flat field over quite a short period of time. Microbolometers used to have die temperature stabilisation employed in their use and that improved performance and what could be achieved with a given microbolometer die. The use, or not, of temperature stabilisation has become very much a decision made by the OEM these days. Whilst not essential, such stabilisation was advantageous when tuning a microbolometer based system for best performance. A Stirling cooled MWIR detector array is cooled to a steady -196C (77K) so is a temperature stabilised detector system.It is no great surprise that the BBC used cooled MWIR long range thermal imaging cameras from Leonardo for their wildlife filming missions. The cooled camera gave them the low noise, highly sensitive, long range imagery that they needed, even when coupled to a continuously variable zoom lens. In less demanding situations the BBC used FLIR microbolometer based thermal imaging cameras that were more portable but less sensitive and without the zoom lens. It was a case of horses for courses. Both MWIR and LWIR have their advantages and it is in the more demanding tasks that the cooled MWIR tends to ‘shine’.If there is one thing to take away from this whole thread, it is to be very wary of NETD figures in sales literature. Sometimes the whole story is not given and the camera you buy and use may have significantly poorer real world NETD than that shown for just the microbolometer and an F1.0 lens. If chasing the lowest possible image noise thermal imaging solution, you will end up having to buy a cooled detector thermal camera with all that such a purchase entails.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 03:20:11 pm
content: I forgot to mention something else about cooled detectors vs microbolometers…….A microbolometer is basically an array of tiny thermistors that change their resistance as they receive thermal energy from the optical block of the camera. A cooled MWIR or LWIR detector array is a Photon collector and so very different to a Thermistor technology Microbolometer. The Wells in the detector collect photons from the optical block and these are counted by an ADC. The Photon Well detector is capable of far faster thermal response times than the variable resistance thermistors used in a microbolometer and the detector is effectively a Photon counter. Hence why high speed thermal cameras use cooled detectors and not the relatively slow response microbolometers.Fraser

author: Wildseyed
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 05:39:42 pm
content: Getting back to the question "Is it worth it? A new cooled camera will cost around $65K at the lower end versus used, which will cost around $4K, not including servicing the chiller. If that's needed, it might cost as much as the camera. I've never tried to refill one myself, but I suppose it's possible. It might make for an interesting video.If you want to look through plastics as a hobby, then yes, it's worth it. If you just need temperature measurements, I'd go with a microbolo. Depending on the optics, there are some that can come closer in sensitivity to the cooled cameras. Look to AutomationTechnology IRS-NDT Series. < 30 mK (f/1.0, range 1).

author: IR_Geek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 07:20:45 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on September 06, 2023, 03:05:33 pmTotally agree that is not MW vs. LW but application specific. If it's short range up close then it's hard to beat a modern uncooled LW. The longer range you need to see then more the trade space becomes dependent on the size/cost of the optic required till eventually the cooled cost may be the better choice.It's unfortunate that NETD is still the metric of choice when comparing cameras. It only captures a portion of the sensitivity/uniformity capability of an IR camera. We no longer use D* (D-star) as a metric and I wish NETD would phase out to a more detailed 3D Noise values. Lots of spec sheets are misleading at best when they don't state the exact conditions of the measurement. Air temperature? Lens temp? scene temp? integration time? lens? when NUCed? how? what algorithms were on/off? Realistically though if a person is looking a 'normal' contrast scene then it doesn't matter. However, if a person is trying to utilize a camera outside of the normal then it's critical.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 01:04:10 pm
content: Another AGEMA/FLIR Thermovision 550 MWIR camera found, and it is in the UKAfter negotiating a price of £200 it is on its way to me. It has yet to be established whether it’s cooler is still working. We shall have to wait and see. If non working it is a valuable source of spares for my working THV 550Buying such cameras is fraught with risk, as I have already highlighted in previous posts. You only buy a cooled camera if you are willing to accept that it may become a "door stop" at any time and, if not tested by the seller, may not be repairable when received. The unit I just purchased was for sale at almost £1K but after I explained to the seller that it needed to be seen working for that sort of money, he agreed that a lesser sum was justified. He did not have the required AGEMA power supply and was not able to power the camera. It is very much a calculated risk purchase, but that can be the only way to obtain such a cooled camera at affordable prices. For me, only the cooler is not repairable so it all comes down to hours run and any leakage of the Helium over the years. This camera is likely part of an industrial clear-out and if the power supply and battery packs became separated from the camera, it cannot easily be tested so ended up being disposed of. I have seen many occasions during my career when perfectly good, working, kit was disposed of just because it was 'old' or could not easily be tested. If such items find their way to Government Auctions or eBay, that is when a true bargain may be found.Fraser

author: hap2001
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2023, 01:33:12 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on September 11, 2023, 01:04:10 pmI hope your camera is working, so we can see your reviewNow here is one Flir U7000 in auction:https://www.ebay.com/itm/394873859974?But it's a bit suspicious, the seller is a newly registered account, and it says "Please note the delivery estimate is greater than 24 business days."

author: nikitasius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2023, 04:18:15 pm
content: but as is it looks cool

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2023, 04:55:59 pm
content: The AGEMA THV550 has arrived and I quickly connected it to the required PSU and ……. It fired up fine with the normal sound of a rotary Stirling cooler cooling down to operating temperature. After 6 minutes the cooler dropped into its ‘maintain’ lower speed mode and the thermal image appeared. A quick test showed the camera to be fully functional.The very first power on test did have a weird vertical offset on the viewfinder display and it was monochrome instead of colour. This situation remedied itself on the next power cycle. The RTC battery has expired and I suspect that this caused the issue. I will need to fit a new CR1225 cell in the RTC module, but that is allWith a 6 minute cool-down (5 minutes on later tests) period, this cameras cooler appears to have a decent Helium Charge and low wearIt may have been the recipient of one or more replacement coolers in its life and I appear to have got lucky with yet another Stirling Cooled camera.It turns out that I was actually buying from an Auction House as their true identity appeared on the eBay transaction. Hence why they could not test the unit prior to listing it.Apologies for the awful quality of the attached images but I only had my iPad to hand. The iPad does not do the cameras images justice and they are even better on a decent large screen. There is dirt in the EVF and that will be removed when I service the camera.Fraser

author: Logan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 04:32:26 pm
content: I just read some old documents here:https://flir.custhelp.com/app/account/fl_download_manualsAnd found this thing surprise me: Many old cooled MWIR cameras do NOT have continuous AGC, which means you have to press AGC button every time scene changes.Such as Flir/Inframetrics PM190/290/390/550/195/295/395, SC1000/SC2000, etc.But the Agema THV450/470 do have continuous AGC.Be aware of this before buying.

author: IR_Geek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 07:30:47 pm
content: Generally speaking not having AGC is a good thing when it comes to radiometric measurements. For 'pretty' pictures AGC is fine but is horrible for calculations. Traditionally you would want both ... a nice picture for focus/alignment but also raw digital count values from the FPA. 8, 10, 12, or 14 digital bit. Even then you require to be in the detectors linear region which may not be the full digital bit depth.

author: Logan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2023, 05:39:02 am
content: Quote from: IR_Geek on September 15, 2023, 07:30:47 pmYeah I guessed that, they are all lab/science cameras, not supposed for field work.

author: hap2001
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2023, 05:33:09 am
content: Quote from: Logan on September 15, 2023, 04:32:26 pmThis is awful, I didn't know that before.

author: hap2001
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2023, 05:38:28 am
content: Here's two more interesting listings:Inframetrics MilCam:https://www.ebay.com/itm/166221270986?Avio TVS-8500:https://www.ebay.com/itm/204456662701?Both of them lack detailed manuals online, only crude infos are available.Does anyone have some insight on them?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2023, 09:00:11 am
content: I know the Milcam well. It is intended for surveillance applications and is built in a military style case format of milled aluminium. The unit offers little in the way of features due to its intended use. The user can adjust brightness and contrast with the option to select white hot or black hot imaging. Flat field/dead pixel correction is done with the lens cap and pressing a button. All pretty basic as a field operative does not want to be messing with lots of buttons or menus. The battery used by the camera is a common camcorder type and, if memory serves, it is a Sony NP series Ni-Mh battery, possibly NP77.The flaw in using a Stirling mechanically cooled camera in a surveillance application is its noise signature. The cooler is noisy when first switched on and sound travels. I personally would not want to use the Milcam in a covert deployment as the cooler might give away my presence and location. The noise of the cooler could be muffled by wrapping the camera in wadding or material. Still not ideal though.I am aware of the AVIO cameras existence but have no personal experience with it. Avio is good kit but not well known outside ASIA. I own several of their microbolometer based cameras and are well made. I hold no details of specifications etc. it the. Way back machine on the AVIO web page may reveal more information.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2023, 11:23:23 am
content: Avio web site still has information on the TVS-8500…https://www.infrared.avio.co.jp/en/products/ir-thermo/lineup/tvs-8500/index.html

author: IR_Geek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 12:32:27 am
content: Quote from: Logan on September 16, 2023, 05:39:02 amBulk of the use I did was field work ... science is way more interesting in the field