I wish Tektronix would go head to head with Rigol - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: onewatt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 07:05:26 pm
content: A few days ago I emailed Tektronix saying that I was going to buy an Oscilloscope soon, and I compared the Tektronix DPO3012 to the Rigol DS4014. I said that I was disappointed that Tektronix pricing is keeping me from buying a Tektronix scope, which is what I would prefer to buy, but instead, I was going to buy a Rigol.Today I got a call from Tektronix marketing.Tektronix DPO3012 $3,380# 100MHz Bandwidth# 2 Channel Models# Sample Rates Up to 2.5 GS/s on All Channels# 5 Megapoint Record Length on All Channels# 50,000 wfm/s Maximum Waveform Capture Ratehttp://www.tek.com/datasheet/mixed-signal-oscilloscopes-8Rigol DS4014 $2,399# 100MHz Bandwidth# 4 Channel Models# Sample Rates Up to 4GS/s on 1 channel; 2GS/s on 2 channels# 140 Megapoint Record Length 1 channel# 110,000 wfm/s Maximum Waveform Capture Rate 1 channelhttp://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds4000/I suggested that Tektronix has essentially abandoned the low-end oscilloscope market and couldn't compete - price wise - with Rigol. I would rather own a Tektronix scope because of my long history with using Tektronix, and that I thought Tektronix has superior customer service and was higher quality, but I'm going to buy a Rigol despite all that… and I was disappointed about that. I had trained in college using Tektronix analog scopes; and I also used Tektronix analog scopes when I was a manufacturing electronics technician and tested and repaired US military surveillance radar, back in the 1980’s.Over the years I've owned Agilent, Tektronix, and Rigol digital oscilloscopes. I mentioned that I enjoyed watching Dave Jones on his EEVideoBlog reviewing Tektronix equipment; I suggested that Tektronix needs engineers like w2aew who also has a Youtube channel. I like his videos using Tektronix analog and digital scopes, and the newer mixed domain oscilloscopes. He’s a great ambassador for Tektronix.But, unless Tektronix gets on the ball and competes head to head with Rigol and Owon in pricing, etc... I think they’re missing out on the many engineers, technicians, ham radio operators, not to mention electronics hobbyists’ who want a good scope at home.I understand that Tektronix has their marketing objectives and the lone buyer who wants a good scope for home probably isn't in their calculus. I just wish Tektronix would go head to head with Rigol.

author: wkb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 07:09:14 pm
content: Well, word has it that low(er) end Tek scopes are built by Rigol. A friend of mine has a Tek (dunno which model) which appears to be one of those. By virtue of it carrying the Tek logo it was quite a bit more expensive than my DS1052

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 07:11:43 pm
content: You realize that approach is basically forcing the outsourcing of Tektronix engineering to China, right? You can't force the price down without losing something in the bargain. I doubt you would get Tek design, Tek quality, Tek support, Tek service the way you want if you are not prepared to pay a little extra for it.

author: onewatt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 09:17:29 pm
content: I had contacted rigol because the picture of the DS4054, that's the 500MHz scope in the DS4000 series, was a strange gray color in the Rigol web page. The sales engineer was kind enough to send me a picture of the scope that's probably next to his desk because he sent it so quickly.The waveform looks like a 180 degree Phase Shift Keying modulation... I think?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 09:39:06 pm
content: Yes, the Tektronix low-end scopes are long overdue for a refresh that does not consist of sticking another letter behind the model number and adding a USB or LAN port. I wouldn't expect them to take part in the race to the bottom with the Asian manufacturers, but at least having similar specced models for a higher price, and being competitive with Agilent, would be nice.Quote from: wkb on January 03, 2012, 07:09:14 pmCitation needed. The Tek 'playmobil' design pre-dates Rigol.

author: w2aew
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 10:45:58 pm
content: Quote from: onewatt on January 03, 2012, 07:05:26 pmBy the way, Tektronix does have engineers like me (exactly like me) working for them ;-)w2aew - Alan

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2012, 12:26:37 am
content: Quote from: w2aew on January 03, 2012, 10:45:58 pm...21st century ninja style, for show.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2012, 05:13:46 am
content: I think the scary thing for the "old" guys is how quick China copies and improves. There will always be "bad copiers" and "improving copiers"If you look at Owon - and their progress - I am very impressed with my 200Mhz SDS8202. And I am EVEN more impressed with their warranty handling. My scope is on its way back to get the "tiny" RF problem solved plus a LAN problem. Since there is no distributor here - Owon asked me to pop in a DHL box on their shipping account number. Every request to them have been handled professionally and very quick.There is no doubt that the "old boys" need to up their game to compete. The "old boys" need to have "entry level" models - to keep the brand awareness. But I think their distribution models will have to change to allow for smaller profits.As IBM used to say "Get them young - have them forever" is true for scopes as other brand products. If you as a student work with Brand Y and is happy - then you are much more likely to chose Brand Y when you "grow up" - That is why Tek/Agilent/LeCroy NEED to have low end models. But they are learning the hard way that "Helping" Chinese manufactures create the low end model ends up in massive competition on their own home turf.For some comparative history look what Japan did with the Xerox/Copier market after 2nd world war... And then they did the same to the FAX market and and and... That is where China is heading. China is the "New Japan" with many more engineers. Yes it will take a while to get quality up to high end levels like Japan is now. But it will come if the company behind is serious like Owon or Rigol and maintains the efforts to improve.

author: ipman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2012, 07:03:15 am
content: Large and very large corporations have a very long market response time, that's well known. Because of the huge number of internal procedures, processes and so on.And that's working in favor of newcomers, time and price wise.

author: wkb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2012, 12:54:04 pm
content: Quote from: ipman on January 04, 2012, 07:03:15 amThat, and agency testing & approvals (UL, CE, electrical safety, whatnot) do not help with quick time to market.Established brands have to do those things the proper way. Newcomers can (and do!) cut corners, just read the various tear down stories on this forum.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2012, 02:43:00 pm
content: Quote from: kaz911 on January 04, 2012, 05:13:46 amI find it astonishing that they managed to break with the typical habit of Chinese manufacturers when it comes to after-sales service. It is quite common for Chines manufacturers to not know you any more, once they have your money. Before you buy they tell you everything you would like to hear. After the sales they don't talk to you any more, latest when you have some issue with the equipment or some criticism. It is astonishing how fast they then lose their command of the English language.If Owon manages to keep up this after-sales service they might have a great future. Does anyone know if Owon/Lilliput is publicly traded? Might be a good idea to get some sharesQuoteEven the new ones like Rigol or Hantek might have to rethink their service behaviour. And they also need to successfully manage to move in the high-end zone, where you can't build oscilloscopes with of-the-shelf ADCs and interlace techniques from application notes.QuoteBut their engineering mindset is wrong. As long as own initiative and creativity is frowned upon, students are kept busy with having to study the biographies of two great chairmen instead of schematics, and having to do pre-military exercises instead of reading books they have a problem.And having more engineers is no argument as such. Only a certain percentage of a population has enough talent to become an engineer. The West has the same misconception that every bum can be trained to become an engineer. Granted, China has a large population, so there are a lot of potential engineers. But if they overheat things, trying to make every bum into an engineer they will face the same problems India now has with the quality of their programmers, and the West sooner or later with STEM graduates.QuoteMy impression is that Rigol is just after the quick buck. They sure grow, but I don't think they are building a sustainable business taking their support attitude and software quality into account. Stuff is just rushed to the marked and no money is put into continuously improving and maintaining products, esp. not software.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2012, 10:01:03 pm
content: In terms of the low-end scope market, I feel like many prospective buyers are quick to pass on the TDS2000 series due its relatively high cost and low single-shot memory, especially when a comparable Rigol can be had for a small fraction of the cost.But there are two aspects of the TDS2000 series that I have not seen replicated in other low-end designs: fan-less cooling and non-interleaved sampling. Every single low-end scope sold by Agilent, Lecroy and Rigol that I've looked at incorporates a fan for cooling and single-channel interleaved sampling to meet whatever sampling rate is marked on the scope's bezel.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2012, 10:55:33 pm
content: Well Tek won't cut corners, and if they do they are things you'reallowedto cut corners on. But if you look in some Chinese scopes, for one, you'll see electrolytic from companies you've never heard of. Maybe some fake chips or unkowns.While you might have service improving from a lot of the Chinese vendors/manufacturers, you might not even need that service with a Tek! That's a maybe, but I think overall, they are much more reliable when you need them.I think Tek's quality HAS decreased over the years from back in the 70s and 80s, but they are still very good.

author: SteveUK
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2012, 02:24:26 am
content: Quote from: kaz911 on January 04, 2012, 05:13:46 amYou're right. I'm trying to get back into electronics (haven't done any since uni) and I need an oscilloscope. The first brand I searched for was Hameg, since those were the ones we had in the lab. My quest for a cheap analog scope continues though...

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2012, 02:59:16 am
content: Quote from: kaz911 on January 04, 2012, 05:13:46 amWow, missed that part. In complete agreement. Tek recently dropped their prices on the TDS2000 series, no doubt in response to Agilent's X series release. I suspect they would have dropped it more were it not for the fact that the TDS2000 series dominates US universities.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2012, 03:14:05 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 05, 2012, 02:59:16 amNow you know why they ALWAYS have an Education Discount.... And usually they will give even bigger discounts if you ask. If Coca Cola could give away free products at daycare they would... :-) Agilents move with Signal Generator built in - with just enough function - I think was mainly aimed at the Education market. But I like it.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2012, 03:20:31 am
content: Quote from: SteveUK on January 05, 2012, 02:24:26 amSo we are in the same boat... I have not done any hardware since 1986'ish. But is currently "rebuilding" my Lab. I got the Owon SDS8202 and it really is a great scope. My "final" pre-decision list for DSS was Agilent 3000 series, Hameg 2000 series or Owon SDS series. But Agilent distributor where I am is greedy, R&S local office never answered my email(s) - and Owon answered all email within 1 working day.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2012, 03:31:25 am
content: How is the Owon SDS? I've only ever seen the older PDS in person and my first impression wasn't favorable at all; the damn thing literally felt like a toy.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2012, 04:16:22 pm
content: Quote from: Joy at MCS on January 05, 2012, 03:43:51 pmBut you are a vendor, aren't you?So, if I put instead my hobbyist, single quantity buyer hat on, how would a mere mortal get support from Rigol? For extra points, someone who bought on the grey market? And let me define "support" as "getting real help" and "for equipment more than a year old, too", not as "ignoring the customer until he goes away", and not as sending a "we are so sorry, we might think about it" mail.And if I put my professional engineer hat on, has Rigol fixed their problem that you don't even get useful answers when you dare to threaten to really buy some of their equipment for a lab?

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2012, 04:38:11 pm
content: Quote from: Joy at MCS on January 05, 2012, 03:43:51 pmspecs are just prints on paper... (or bits in a pdf) They are still operating as a Chinese company. I hope they will do well - but so far I am not impressed. I have sent mail directly to Rigol and never got an answer. I got a quick answer from Joy :-) To compete with Tek they do need to be better value for money - and the high end Rigol's does not seem that way to me.So far the best respondents have been - Agilent US, Tektronix dealer in UAE and Owon.The worst have been R&S UAE, Rigol, GW Instek Distributor in UAE and Rigol "resellers" in the UAE. (And Agilent Distributor in the UAE) - none of them seem to want my money.So my money went to Owon and Agilent.

author: chscholz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2012, 04:20:11 pm
content: AFAIK, even the high-end 33 GHz Danaher/Tektronix scopes are made in China.Quote from: IanB on January 03, 2012, 07:11:43 pm

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2012, 04:47:32 pm
content: Quote from: kaz911 on January 04, 2012, 05:13:46 amAnd the part that seems completely lost on the incumbent oscilloscope makers is that the likes of Owon and Rigol are going to finance their way to higher quality by selling a lot of cheap entry level scopes (just got a brand new DS1102E for my own personal use, a purchase I could never justify with the established brands). They are just content they can command a fat margin on their brand name. The US auto industry went through this. I guess its true what they say about history repeating itself.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2012, 04:52:19 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on January 03, 2012, 07:11:43 pmMy guess is the higher price is largely due to the fat margin the Tek brand can command. The reason companies outsource is it allows them to lower the price AND keep the same margin. If Tek (or Danaher) prides itself of being a good American company they could simply take a smaller margin. That's not going to happen though.