The correct EPDM rubber cord diamater to insulate internally a pipe - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: YouCanDoIt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2024, 07:13:16 pm
content: Hello to all,I need to thermally insulate the internal ofthis12x8mm PU pipe (for a length of around 4-6 cm):I will usethisEPDM rubber cord (which seems to be the best material for such scope):Common sense tells me that I should buy 8mm diameter just like the same internal diameter off the pipe I want to seal, but I'm wondering if 10mm (next available diameter available for purchase) could provide better insulation.I don't know tolerance of such material, so the question is obvious:are there chances that a 10mm cord will not fit at all?I should also specify thatthis is not a permanent sealing. I will often need to remove the seal by hand, so it is imperative for me some sort ofquick and easy "plug-unplug".Thanks

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2024, 07:34:28 pm
content: That might wick up moisture. I don't get what you are trying to do.You can plug the pipe with a long piece of foam and then stopper the ends with rubber stoppers like chemistry ones, thats what I would consider a temporary solutionI would buy some segments and see which one fits, you can get them in short lengths on amazon most likely. Its going to depend on how strait the pipe is, if there is a bend obviously you need a smaller one and you need to determine which one empirically.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2024, 09:40:37 pm
content: I normally fold over and cable-tie PU pipe. Have not had it fail or leak but I've only tested to a few bar.What's your usage scenario?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2024, 09:45:43 pm
content: Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 04, 2024, 07:13:16 pmIs this still about making a home portable air cooler?If so, you might change the title of this and your other thread to something "Home Portable Air Cooler", so that more people will read it and give you comments.As to the question here, if this is a water pipe for such an air cooler, you do not need to thermally insulate it at all. Thermal insulation of pipes and ducts is completely unnecessary in such a device.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2024, 09:50:36 pm
content: that depends if you are getting dripping where you don't want it, on the exterior. On the interior I have NO idea what he means

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2024, 11:47:14 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on August 04, 2024, 09:50:36 pmIf the external pipe is going to an external radiator, as in the example below, then dripping from the pipe is the least of the problems.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 08:47:00 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on August 04, 2024, 09:50:36 pmIndeed.OP, I think you’re confusing people with nonstandard terminology.Thermal insulation means something added to prevent heat transfer. For pipes and hoses, this is a layer of thermally insulating material (typically foam or fiberglass) mounted around the outside of the pipe. Nothing happens on the inside because it’s… a pipe, and needs to stay a pipe.It sounds to me like you simply want some kind of… cork?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 08:55:45 am
content: Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 04, 2024, 07:13:16 pmCan you please explain what you want to achieve?Do you want to completely block the flow (gas or fluid?) through the pipe? If so, the porous material you suggest will not achieve that.Or do you still want flow, but hope to suppress the transport of thermal energy? That won't work at all via a simple "plug" insert, I'm afraid. You would need a structure with a large surface area and good thermal conductivity, which the gas or fluid passes through and which you actively keep at the desired temperature via an external heating or cooling unit.

author: YouCanDoIt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 05:15:46 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 05, 2024, 08:55:45 amI'm building a DIY air conditioner (more detailshere) which is based on 2 containers: one ice chest with the only purpose to be a cold reservoir and a styrofoam box where occur all the processing (radiator, blower fan, water pump etc).The two containers are connected through two 12mm pipes (glued to the holes) and the two pipes are connected to the two connectors of the radiator located inside the styrofoam box.There are occasions where I want to detach the styrofoam box and use the ice chest as was originally designed for (picnic etc). I'm left with two holes on the lid and I just need to seal such holes in order to restore insulation.So, what I want to do is simple: plug the EPDM rubber cord inside the pipe area of the lid. Thickness of the lid should be around 3-4 cm, so a 5-6 cm cord should be enough.EPDM rubber is what seemed to be the right material for this scope. In the winter I will try to see if my air conditioner works even with hot air. I suppose EPDM rubber should work fine even for heat insulation.Quote from: IanB on August 04, 2024, 11:47:14 pmIanB, yes, I will try to fix title as soon as possible, but now I need to place the order (AE choice day will end up in 5 hours). I will buy 8mm diameter since this is supposed to seal 8mm holes. It's too risky 10mm (even 9mm). If I want a stronger seal I suppose I can later combine the cord with something else (may be some silicone gasket).Dripping and humidity has nothing to do with the argument of this thread, but is something that I'm trying to see how can be solved in the other thread (I'm thinking to add a secondary system to reduce the room humidity which seems to be an important factor that reduce cooling capability).

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 05:45:11 pm
content: Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 05, 2024, 05:15:46 pmI don't think room humidity is a factor that affects cooling. It is a factor that affects human comfort, but if you care about that you should purchase and use an electrical air conditioning unit of conventional design.

author: YouCanDoIt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 06:27:25 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 05, 2024, 05:45:11 pmI also think the same, but the other guy who built many of such systems said that cooling performs much better in a dry climate especially when trying to cool a whole room. Given that were I live humidity is above 50% most of the time, I think that I should at least investigate, but it would be out of topic here (will try to respond to my other thread as soon as possible).Regarding this topic, the solution should be pretty easy. Do you think I can go with a 8mm EPDM rubber cord to achieve the goal or you have a better material type and/or diameter recommendation?Quote from: IanB on August 04, 2024, 09:45:43 pmYou're probably right when used as an air conditioner, but when I detach the styrofoam box to just use the ice chest alone (ex: for picnic), two 12mm open holes will ruin for sure insulation.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 06:52:18 pm
content: See the note above from tooki:Quote from: tooki on August 05, 2024, 08:47:00 amAs tooki says, you are looking for a cork, or a bung, to seal the pipe.You should probably try to match the outside diameter of the bung with the inside diameter of the pipe.The primary goal is not to insulate, but to prevent air flow. I doubt much heat is going to get through such a small hole otherwise.

author: YouCanDoIt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 07:42:14 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 05, 2024, 06:52:18 pmWhat's wrong with my solution?QuoteI understand that with my solution the pipe itself is not insulated, just its internal area.You mean something like this:I'm not sure on such materials (I suspect EPDM works much better). With a cap alone, the rest of the hole is not filled.Perhaps I could insert the rubber cord to fill the whole hole and then a cap on on top of it to isolate the exposed side of the pipe?Blocking air flow should be pretty easy, but I don't think is enough. If it was just a matter of blocking air flow, then an ice chest like this with walls of 4 cm of thickness made of different layers would not have reason to exists. I created a leak on such container, so I believe I should fix the leak by filling the whole depth of the leak.Ian, I feel like I will get all the parts without any power supplier. I'm unable to estimate the right amperage because I don't know if later I will add other stuff like peltier module, secondary blower motor, temperature controller etc.I have here a primary switched power supply rated "12V - 5000ma". Do you think is enough for testing until I will know the definitive amperage needed for the whole system?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 07:56:21 pm
content: Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 05, 2024, 07:42:14 pmTotally irrelevant, since that's talking about insulation, which as I already explained to you, refers to material applied to theoutsideof a pipe to prevent heat transfer.EPDM rope will certainly insulate, but you'll have a devil of a time getting it into your tube.Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 05, 2024, 07:42:14 pmHere's the thing you're forgetting in your thinking: air is a really poor heat transfer medium -- that is, air is a really good thermal insulator. As long as you can keep air from moving (convection) you can prevent heat movement quite effectively. That's literally how insulation (animal fur, fiberglass wool, blankets, foam, etc) works: you trap air in a way that makes it impossible for the air to move, while providing as little solid material as possible through which heat conduction can occur.The reason for layers in a cooler or whatever is to create multiple isolated air masses that don't mix, to prevent convection. This is what dense animal fur, foam insulation, etc. do on a microscopic scale.A stopper in your tube will prevent air movement. Heat transfer will also occur through the walls of the tube itself, and plugging the entire tube won't change this very much. Put a second cork in the inside if you want.

author: YouCanDoIt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2024, 04:16:46 am
content: Guys, I placed the order, but without any EPDM rubber. From what you said, seems like there could be issues with it.Quote from: tooki on August 05, 2024, 07:56:21 pmtooki, many thanks for your help, I really appreciate.You said that the thermal insulation (foam etc) is only applied externally to the pipe to prevent heat transfer and its internal should left as is.I understand this and in fact my design works in this way.I'm afraid I didn't provided enough details about my project especially about insulation, pipe positions, dimensions, water flow etc.Below is a full diagram:When I want to use the Ice chest as a regular container for food, drinks etc, I just detach the processing unit and the related parts.This is what I get once I detach the processing unit:The Ice chest is pretty much the same of the "untouched version" except for the two holes you see on the right along with two 12mm pipes that goes through the holes.This breaks insulation, the heat penetrate and cold retention reduced. So, what I need is just restore the default insulation.I'm not sure on what are the best solutions, but I found 3 possible options.Option 1Here the whole hole is filled with material that is supposed to be the closest one to the original of the ice chest.Quote from: tooki on August 05, 2024, 07:56:21 pmI'm surprised about this. Internal diameter of the tube is exactly the same of the EPDM rope diameter. I was expecting a smooth insertion given that EPDM is some sort or rubber.Option 2This is the same as the previous option except the additional silicone rubber caps. In this way the external area of the pipe is not exposed anymore. To me this seems to be the best solution and most of all, not at all cumbersome.I'm not sure if there are better materials. You suggested cork, but I'm not sure it would be easy to find such particular dimensions and how compares with EPDM foam. In addition to that, cork is a material that degrades very fast, even more when is cut in small pieces (just like my case).Option 3Pneumatic seals. These are designed to work with that tube and connectors shown in the first diagram. Connection and disconnection is very easy. However, apart that they more cumbersome, the internal area of the tube remains open.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2024, 06:32:06 am
content: You are overthinking this. Compared to the large surface area of your ice box, the two small openings for the tube have negligible cross section. Just plug them in some way to avoid air flow. But don't worry about heat conduction and insulation in that small area.Your "processing unit" seems a bit over-engineered to me. Why does that heat exchanger need to sit in a styrofoam box? Isn't its whole purpose to give off cold air to the environment? With the relatively small air inlets and outlets, you will need high air velocities and fan speeds -- i.e. the unit will be louder. I would use a slow, large fan (ventilator) blowing at the full cross section of the radiator, and an air outlet with the radiator's full cross section too. Just look at the way radiators are installed in cars.Also, what is the purpose of the carbon/Hepa filter on the air inlet? You are sucking in air from the room and blowing it out into the room again, so it's not like you are bringing new contaminants into the room. And the filter will obstruct airflow, again driving the need for a more powerful (i.e. noisier) fan.Finally, what you do need to think about is condensation inside the processing unit. Since the radiator temperature will be close to 0°C, therewillbe condensation as the incoming air gets cooled down. Expect the radiator to get dripping wet. I think you need a drip tray below it, with a drain tube.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2024, 12:45:51 pm
content: Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 07, 2024, 04:16:46 amSorry, perhaps I needed to be clearer: by “cork”, I simply mean a stopper or bung, regardless of material. It doesn’t have to be natural cork. (Though that would be a perfectly valid option; I’m not sure why you think cork degrades quickly. I mean, it can handle literally decades of direct contact with liquids…)You are truly overthinking this. You’re worrying about some insanely small amount of efficiency loss/gain in a system that’s fundamentally not very good to begin with. (If such ice-based air conditioners made sense we’d use them widely. We don’t. An air conditioner is better when possible.)You haven’t said how you will be freezing your ice or ice packs, but unless you’re freezing them in an entirely different location, it’s truly pointless, because the heat pulled out of the water to freeze it is discharged into your house (plus some extra heat due to losses and friction in the freezer itself), so you’re raising your house’s temperature by more heat than your “air conditioner” can cool it.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2024, 01:34:14 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 07, 2024, 12:45:51 pmGood point. I'd say the only valid reason for using the ice-based approach is if you want to run this off-grid, from a battery or solar cell. Otherwise, get one of those self-contained air-conditioning units which are based on a heat pump.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2024, 02:01:36 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 07, 2024, 12:45:51 pmActually that is an excellent point.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2024, 02:19:56 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 07, 2024, 02:01:36 pmIndeed. Same point reinforced here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/i-need-to-connect-a-100mm-dryer-flexible-vent-hose-to-a-102mm-pipe/msg5596439/#msg5596439

author: YouCanDoIt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2024, 03:36:11 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 07, 2024, 06:32:06 amQuote from: tooki on August 07, 2024, 12:45:51 pmYou're probably right. I always tend to overthink while I design and mostly because, once a project is built, I want to avoid to blame myself with something like "this area does not work as expected and it wasn't at all something that makes very little difference".I had to experience this several times and is not at all a good thing.I can't really estimate how can negatively affect two 12mm holes vs two 16mm holes, but a 16mm radiator pipe is significantly bigger and the pipes to connect are two. It's a risk, once two 16mm holes are drilled and negative impact is more than expected, I can reduce the holes, but the original and expensive insulating layers of the ice box are definitively lost. In an expensive ice chest like this, two 12mm holes are different from two 16mm holes "repaired" to 12mm.For this reason I decided to stay on the safe side.The 12mm to 16mm connector and all the other blue ones you see in the diagram are pneumatic connectors. They are quick release and free from any hassle.Even with 16mm holes as you say, I still need a 12mm to 12mm connector in order to achieve "detach" functionality.So, why not just using a 12mm to 16mm connector and obtain less intrusive modifications to the ice chest?Yes tooki, air conditioners are for sure better when possible, but they can't be all around the home or even on travel. I can guarantee you that ice-based air conditioners are pretty close as long as they are well designed (mostly available on YT aren't). They are portable, free from any cost an they can be used even outdoor to cool specific areas.Quote from: ebastler on August 07, 2024, 06:32:06 amYour other observations about the rest of the design are very interesting, but I will reply in my otherthreadbecause here would be off-topic.Quote from: tooki on August 07, 2024, 12:45:51 pmDo not worry. Well, in this case I would say we're talking about the same thing, just different terminology.I have read about degradation in the google "People also ask" and what I have read is not encouraging at all:QuoteIt also seems to be very hard to find the needed size and length. They are mostly available in standard size (the sizes suitable for bottles).Sometimes cork breaks and get stuck inside even when used with regular bottles. Keep in mind that in my case the cork size would be 12mm x 40-50mm. I can already see how can easily break with just a couple of insertion and/or removals.Let me understand...seems to be that it is more a matter on the material I use to fill the holes, rather than the way I do it.Apart the issues I have just mentioned, what really makes cork better than EPDM foam rubber?I have not been able to find thermal properties comparisons, but what I found is that cork has a much lower moisture resistance compared to generic rubber and given that moisture is a concrete risk for a system like this, my concerns increase.Quote from: tooki on August 07, 2024, 12:45:51 pmMany thanks, tooki! IanB and some other guys already made me aware of such issue. Fortunately I will use a freezer which is located in another floor of the home.Quote from: IanB on August 07, 2024, 02:19:56 pmGreat! And I added another reinforcement just at the beginning of thethread. In this way people will not even attempt to build the project if they are in such condition.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2024, 10:08:04 am
content: Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 08, 2024, 03:36:11 amYou learn a lot more from failures than from successes — at least if you then figure outwhyit didn’t work.But if you’re having project after project fail for unknown reasons, then you need to examine your process for making projects, because that might indicate that you’re trying to do things too far for your current understanding of the subject matter.Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 08, 2024, 03:36:11 amI don’t think any of it matters.When using it as a cooler for foods and drinks, the main thing is to prevent airflow. Even just closing the tubes with sticky tape on both ends would give surprisingly good insulation.When using it as an air conditioner, losses from the ice chest simply do not matter, because the losses cool the same space the cooled air is discharged into. The only time when losses would matter is if the ice chest and the “processing unit” were in completely different spaces.Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 08, 2024, 03:36:11 amThey “can’t be all around the home”?!? Uhh… central air conditioning exists, as does “buying more than one air conditioner” (e.g. to put one in each room). In USA, for example, it is common for old houses (built before air conditioning) to have a small air conditioner in each room.Free from any cost? Since when is the electricity to run the freezer free?“Used outdoors to cool specific areas”?LOL no. They can be used to blow small amounts of cool air directly at a small part of a person. You’re not going to have any effect on an outdoorarea.Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 08, 2024, 03:36:11 amNo, I don’t think we are, because the rest of your reply indicates you absolutely did not understand what I am saying.Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 08, 2024, 03:36:11 amBut again, I never actuallyrecommendedusing natural cork, though it likely would work.What I clarified is that by “a cork”, I mean a stopper or bung. That means an object designed to be a removable closure for an opening, especially one that works by friction-fit of a compressible material. But a cap or other closure would be fine too.What it doesn’t mean is completely filling the entire length of the tube.As for your decomposition quote: you’ve again located somecompletelyirrelevant piece of information. That wording indicates it’s saying how long to decomposewhen you want to compost it. It is NOT saying that cork will decompose in 3 years or less while in use as a stopper! You know that there are wine bottles decades old, with their original cork stoppers still keeping the wine inside, right?!?OK, yep, I googled your quote and indeed it comes from a composting FAQ:https://insteading.com/blog/composting-wine-corks/Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 08, 2024, 03:36:11 amSo you still have not understood why this shape is not necessary.You just need to block airflow. You don’t need to block the entire length of the tube.Air that cannot move is an excellent insulator. By blocking one end of the tube, you already significantly reduce heat transfer, and by simply blocking both ends, you completely immobilize the air within. The tube is already made of plastic (a relatively poor heat conductor), and it is tiny compared to the overall surface area of the box, so any improvements due to completely filling the tube would be minimal (to the point of being insignificant) at best.Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 08, 2024, 03:36:11 amYour conclusion (in bold) is literally the exact opposite of what people have been trying to tell you.1. We are saying that the important thing is to block airflow, regardless of material. To block airflow you don’t need to fill the entire length of the tube.2. Nobody ever said natural cork is a superior material to EPDM. All I said is that natural cork would probably work fine for a stopper.And why would the longevity of natural cork even matter? You said the stoppers are only for when you’re using the box as a beverage cooler, which is not normally a long-term thing. So most of the time, the stoppers would be removed because the tubes are in use with your cooling water, or because the box is sitting in winter storage with neither cooling water nor stoppers. Who cares about the long-term moisture resistance of stoppers that are only used for hours at a time, with ample time to dry out in between?I’m questioning whether to spend any more time on this thread unless you demonstrate an actual effort to understand what people are saying and a willingness to accept it, because the vibe I’m getting is that you’re one of these people who simply want validation of your own ideas (whether they’re correct or not), and basically tune out anything that doesn’t agree, and find completely irrelevant sources to support your misunderstandings of things. You’re seeing what we say and even responding to it, but it isn’t penetrating.I’ll also make clear that I think DIY ice-based air conditioning is a fundamentally poor type of air conditioning, which only makes sense in certain extremely narrow circumstances. (Like off-grid use, where you might “store” solar energy this way.) Using one in a normal house is just silly. I think you’re making a ton of effort for something that will not give a particularly good result.A household freezer has only a small fraction the cooling power of even a small compressor-based air conditioner. The amount of ice needed to effectively cool a room is enormous: approximately 3kg of 0°C ice per square meter of floor area per 24h. So even a tiny 10 square meter bedroom would require 30kg of ice per day. That is far, far beyond what a standard home freezer compartment in a fridge can produce. (A large standalone home freezer can do about 25kg/day.)(Yes, ice is normally kept substantially colder than 0°C, but energetically, that’s more or less irrelevant, as the huge amount of energy needed for the phase change to/from 0°C water <-> 0°C ice far exceeds the energy needed for the e.g. -20°C ice <-> 0°C ice temperature change.)

author: YouCanDoIt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2024, 04:50:31 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 08, 2024, 10:08:04 amThis is the same statement I repeat myself each time I fails in somethingThat's the harder part! I always try to push things to the limit even without having the correct knowledge to understand if they can work. I'm afraid I will never be able to solve this.Quote from: tooki on August 08, 2024, 10:08:04 amThis is encouraging, it's much easier that I thought!This is something that I'm trying to better understand. If seen from this point of view, ice chest used in such kind of project would not make sense because we want immediate release of all the available cold into the room.In the other thread a guy said that the most efficient way to cool down a room would be a big block of ice placed in the center of the room.From the information I got from the other thread I have divided an air conditioner like this into two different categories:capable to cool down a small room to the desired temperature (which seems to be very hard)capable to only cool down a limited area of the roomFrom my understanding, an ice chest plays a big role in both the cases because in both the cases released cold should be controlled to ensure no waste and longer duration of the ice:When a room reached the target temperature we want to suspend or slow down the released cold (just like happens with a regular AC) and when this process happens, the ice chest insulation is what guarantee ice preservationWhen a target area has reached the target temperature or the cold needed to provide fresh air to that area is less than the maximum cold the cooler can provide, then we want to slow down the cooling process to the minimum required for that area rather than trying to cool down the whole room at max power.I saw people using manual switches to reduce power (see video below). I prefer a temperature controller that reduce power based on the detected temperature. I'm not sure on what of the twos works better, so I am waiting to get a prototype up and running to see what could be the best way to control the release of the cold.The only scenario where I see (in both the 2 previous points) an ice chest completely useless is when the full cooling power is needed all of the time. I want to hope this is a very rare possibility.On the other thread some people have done your same observation about the processing unit and my attempt to reduce heat penetration through a styrofoam box. If I have understood well, I should rather facilitate heat penetration by leaving all the parts exposed. I'm trying how I can solve some issue if I go in this way:i don't know how to adapt air filtering. Placed under the radiator the filters will get ruined by the water that drops from condensation that occur on the radiator. Above above the radiator the motor blower will become much less effective. On a closed container I don't have this problem.With everything exposed I have less control on the cold release. For example when the unit is in standby all the parts will become hotter and the heat will easily penetrate inside the chest box. With a styrofoam box I can at least reduce a a good amount this phenomena.If I point the nozzle to a specific area, the cold will be released even in the cooler location due to all the parts exposed and this would be a waste. With a closed and insulated container all the cold air will go straight to the target point.With the right design I could fix the first issue (ex: I could place the radiator vertically), but the last two issues seem harder.In the other thread I expressed a couple of minor issues, but I think they should be easily manageable.I'm delaying the purchase of the box because I'm in doubt. I was sure about the styrofoam box, but now not at all after I've heard your opinions.Quote from: tooki on August 08, 2024, 10:08:04 amI totally agree with you. Central air conditioning or even an air conditioner in each room would work like a charm and in an automated way...if someone does not care about all the money needed for the initial investment and to keep them running.Quote from: tooki on August 08, 2024, 10:08:04 amA freezer is running 24h anyway. We don't have to power it on just to freeze our ice packs. They are designed to freeze inserted food with minimum power usage, especially modern ones (with good energy saving rate).When I insert new food into my freezer, the motor start spinning for, may be, 5-10 seconds, then return to its previous state.In the ceiling of the house I still have one (unused) of such big freezers with the "Ocean" logo. It's very big (may be 2 square meters) and such freezers were very common here around 30-40 years ago. I've been tempted multiple times to use it as a dedicated device to prepare ice for my cooler especially because it allows me to completely fill the ice chest box, but...I'm afraid that this is going to be very expensive in terms of power consumption.Quote from: tooki on August 08, 2024, 10:08:04 amYou verified this personally?On minute "7:58":"Does it work? Well that's pretty subjective. I'm finding that it will cool an area and if you're in that area, it will cool you!"Don't take this as an offence, but between someone stating that it doesn't work at all andMr Fred’s DIY Garage Schoolshowing the experiment directly on video with thermal camera and numbers, you agree with me who have more credits.We can debate about effectiveness of a full outdoor vs semi-outdoor (like the open garage in the video), if can provide some cooling only on night or under shadow and many other things. But it's wrong to say that it only works inside a completely insulated room. At least, on a garage with one wall completely open, 32% humidity and all of the same conditions in video, works pretty well. As Fred said, it is subjective if a cooled area worth or not, but it is wrong to say that an area can't be cooled at all, unless you proof me that Fred faked data and made false statements.Some people rely exclusively on thermodynamic laws and when they see a video against their statement they get hot. I'm sure is not your case.It's good to use science as a first checking point, but science can't just calculate everything. Experiments directly in the field play a big role and should be taken into account.Quote from: tooki on August 08, 2024, 10:08:04 amIn this case, please accept my apologies. I will try my best from now on...Quote from: tooki on August 08, 2024, 10:08:04 amWhat I can say here other than "please accept my apologies"? And the worst thing is that you clearly stated that by “a cork”, you mean a stopper or bung.You can see how much hot the other discussion has become and how many messages I had to reply. You can imagine how many drafts I have opened in the browser. Given that english is not even my natural language, do you think could be forgivable the fact that I have missed out or forgotten your statement in a scenario like this? Or I have to be considered as someone who only want people that agree with its own statements?Let imagine for a while that you was really recommending natural cork, my concerns were not unjustified based on what stated on the google FAQ. There was no mention about composting and this is a google fault. You're right, I should have opened the url and read more, but as it has been said multiple times, it doesn't worth to spend much time in investigations for such aspect of the project and I just thought that thrusting google FAQ was more than enough.To me the pneumatic plugs or the EPDM rubber cord seemed to match the characteristics you described, even more if you say that i don't have to fill the whole length.Quote from: tooki on August 08, 2024, 10:08:04 amThis is what i call a great explanation and what I was waiting for.5 stars!Place it as the first response of the thread and we are almost done.You've basically solved most of my concerns:caps showed in my diagram are useless since the tube is tiny and the heat that can penetrate is insignificant (much better than minimal).by blocking both ends, I completely immobilize the air within (and this is what I want, right?). No need to fill the entire lengthSorry again for my misunderstanding. I really need to be more careful!To resume:Although I don't need to fill the whole hole, I am not sure that a shorter cork can significantly reduce the risk of breakage. When I said that needed diameter was 12mm I was wrong: the internal diameter of the tube is 8mm! I don't want to be considered as someone who wants validation of its own ideas through every source he can find. In this specific case I don't even involve sources and given the resistance of corks my concerns about possible breakage make sense when the diameter is only 8mm.I have not been able to find cork or any other material with the features you described when I was searching for 12mm. It will be even harder to find 8mm ones.I totally agree about longevity. It was a concern I had when I checked the google faq. I was not aware it was about composting. So, I just assumed that on such small size I would had to buy a new supply each time I go on a journey and need a beverage cooler. It's not about the paltry cost, it's all about the hassle.You're totally right about moisture resistance too: it is useless when used as a beverage cooler. Here I'm afraid happened the same event previously described. With all drafts opened and moisture issues discussed on the other thread I must have done some sort of typo (or I simply was tired and sleepy). Sorry!!!Anyway, I'm afraid that my concerns have very little importance considering how much is difficult to find such custom size, unless I'm willing pay handsomely a specialized company plus dedicated shipping costs with the risks to find out that they get broken. If it was something I could add to an existing AE order I could give it a try, otherwise it doesn't worth.Unless someone can suggest me an existing product, I'm afraid I will have to fallback into EPDM or pneumatic seals. Preventing air entrance is what I need and they are both excellent airtight sealers.Quote from: tooki on August 08, 2024, 10:08:04 amOf course my friend and I started this process by recognizing all my faults and unwanted mistakes, some of them generated by the very confusing scenario I had to face. And I ask you and the other people to accept my apologies for the very long thread it has become this due the numerous off-topic. It should have been marked as solved with just a very small amount of messages, but many people started to comment about the design of my cooler instead of the argument for which this thread has been opened and I have been forced to respond. I'm not the kind of person who ignore messages although such behaviour would have been more appropriate.You have for sure noticed that each time I talk about my ideas, I often use terms like "may be", "not sure", "from what I have understood..." etc with the main purpose to make people aware that my idea can be wrong.It's not that I want validation of my own ideas even if they are not correct, but I'm specifically looking for people that demonstrate the reasons why they aren't. However, when I have valid arguments against such reasons, I expose them whether interlocutor appreciate or not. I have given a concrete example with the video above. Vice versa, when such reasons are valid and I have no arguments I just close and mark my idea with something like "I need to revise my idea and make it free from the issues people mentioned!".Please, forget about the sources I found to validate my arguments (ex: the google cork faq). This is not my default behaviour when I check sources and was not even tendentious. It was plain superficiality and too much trust in google when the argument has very low importance combined with the messy scenario I was facing.When you talk about solar energy, do you refer to the possibility to power the ice-cooler through a solar panel rather than a battery or a regular AC socket? I feel like you're talking about something completely different.I was aware on the difficulty to cool a room and I started the project with the awareness that cooling a restricted area (it's not the same, but call it "pushing some fresh air against an object", if you prefer) was the maximum I could achieve which it is perfectly fine for me. However you know how human kind are, they always try to achieve what seems to be impossible (and sometime, someone, succeeds).I'm probably misunderstanding your numbers, but is 3 kg the equivalent of three 1000ml ice pack bags stored at 0C (at least this is what the conversion tools say) ? If such 3 bags are enough to keep cool one square meter for 24 hours it doesn't sound bad. I'll use gel packs and although I don't have them yet available to verify, I would say that if I give the bags the correct shape I should have the space to freeze, more or less, around 10 bags (food included).I have no idea on the time needed to freeze such packs, but labels say around 8 hours. If this is true and I'm not misunderstanding your numbers, it should be 30 kg per 24H.In theory the other big freezer I previously talked about should be able to provide enough ice for a whole room, but what about bills if I have the crazy idea to power it on?I'm probably missing some other not negligible detail. On the other thread they talked about a temperature drop of 5C. So, with a temperature of 32C, with such quantities I can go down to 27C. If I accept such temp it's better for me. If I want to go to 22C, then I will need to double. Hope I'm wrong!Thanks for the explanation about the heat exchange. There are still some unclear details, but I think I got what matter.Regarding the current thread, in particular the ice chest sealers, I really don't want to abuse your time. Everything is well explained.If you want to comment about the rest (and is not mandatory), it would be better on the other thread because here would be off-topic.Thanks again

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2024, 12:54:02 pm
content: Your home freezer does NOT run 24/7. It’splugged in24/7, but typically runs for a few minutes per hour to maintain temperature (= compensate for losses). But adding food or water will increase the duty cycle (the % of time that it’s actually running) significantly — after a delay.Suppose your freezer is mostly full of frozen foods and liquids (as it should be for optimum efficiency). Then you put in a liter bottle of water to freeze. The freezer doesn’t know this right away, because its temperature sensor is somewhere along (or inside) a wall of the freezer, which is still cold. It doesn’t have an infrared camera to see “oh my, we have a hot spot now”. What happens is that the heat in your water bottle moves from the bottle to everything else in the freezer (the frozen items and the small amount of air). The air we can more or less ignore. But you have to understand that the “cold energy” to freeze the newly added bottle comes from the other foods, and their temperature will rise as they absorb the heat from the bottle. Depending on the shape of the bottle, probably around 3h to freeze. During this time, the temperature of the other frozen goods will rise, causing damage to them if they get too warm (even if still below 0). Eventually the temperature sensor will detect that the temperature in the freezer has risen, and will turn on the compressor to cool everything back down.It most certainly does not mean your freezer compressor runs for “5-10 seconds” and with that, removed all the heat needed to freeze the bottle. The other foods are a reservoir which has to get refilled later. Your freezer compressor will likely need to run for about 2 hours to bring everything back down to temperature.As I already told you, a LARGE household freezer can only freeze up to about 25kg per day. A standard freezer compartment, far less. And as we have told you, pushing the limits on this also endangers the other foods in the freezer. If you try to freeze many kilos of ice per day in your normal kitchen freezer, day after day, at some point your mom will kill you because of all the frozen food that has been ruined. For example, ice cream will become grainy, as the slow refreezing causes large ice crystals to form in it. Frozen vegetables will get mushier. Meat will lose more juices when cooked. And if it gets too warm, harmful bacteria can grow. (This is why restaurant refrigerators and freezers have far, far more powerful compressors, so that they can maintain safe temperatures even as large amounts of food are added.)The kg of ice per square meter is the amount needed to cool an insulated house as a whole. You cannot say “I just want to cool this one square meter of the room” in an open room! No more than you can pour a cup of coffee in the ocean and expect a bubble of warmth around you. No more than you can add a handful of salt into your boiling pasta water and expect only the water beneath your hand to get salty. Heat ALWAYS moves (and always from hot to cold), and in air, other effects like convection also mean the room air mixes. So the kg/sqm is what you need to calculate the ice for the whole room.As for the video: yeah, um, I’m still going to believe me and not an idiot on YouTube who doesn’t show anything useful. All he shows is that the air exiting the thing is cooled substantially. But all it can do is blow cool air onto someone a few cm away. The massive amount of hot air it’s blowing into means it simply cannot cool any meaningful mass of air, because it immediately gets diluted with ambient air. It’s like pissing in the ocean. You aren’t going to meaningfully warm the ocean because it’s just not enough warm liquid. What he doesn’t show, because it would prove the damned thing is useless, is what happens to the overall room temperature at different distances. You’d see that the temperature change falls dramatically.FYI, this applies the same way to hot air. This is why you can use an electric hair dryer without burning your head. Or a heat gun: you can have a heat gun with 300C air temperature at the nozzle, yet at half a meter away, it’s not even hot enough to hurt (so under about 80C). (And consider that these have FAR more heating power than your ice box AC has cooling power.)As for your statement that “science can’t just calculate everything” — ummm…Yeah, in this case it absolutely can. Thermodynamics isn’t some poorly-understood, experimental fringe of physics, it’s a part that is extremely well understood and characterized. Your lack of knowledge (and the lack of knowledge in that YouTuber you love) is not of equal importance as the knowledge of people who actually know what they’re talking about.Sorry to have to be so blunt, but you know so little about the topic that you don’t even realize how little you know, and that is giving you misplaced confidence. You also seem unaware of the need to check into things more deeply to gauge their relevance, as shown in your blind trust in a Google FAQ (which are frequently completely wrong, by the way), without even making the effort to see if it’s applicable — and at the same time ignoring common sense. Surely you’ve seen bottles with corks over 3 years old?!? The fact that bottles with corks much older than exist, and I’m sure you knew that already, should have immediately made you think “wait a second, that can’t be right.” But then again you weren’t actually looking for the relevant facts, you were looking for something to agree with your assumptions so you could “prove” me wrong.Yes, you couch your statements with weasel words like “it may be”, which is fine, but when people demonstrate to you that you are, in fact, mistaken, you really aren’t accepting it. You’re still believing the sources that say what you hope is true, even though they’re wrong or inapplicable.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2024, 04:06:38 pm
content: So I found one example of such a cooling unit that seems to have a sensible justification (use in a small airplane cabin without onboard power) and is thoughtfully designed.In this case the builder specifically directed the stream of cool air directly at the occupants, and also bought big blocks of ice from the convenience store, rather than freezing ice at home.This is the kind of video that I would be comfortable taking hints from:

author: YouCanDoIt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2024, 06:17:51 am
content: Oh yes, I should have used more clear terms. 24/7 should be the maintenance mode.This is really an excellent explanation on how works the process and the risks for the other food. I must admit I'm surprised about the technology. Freezer exists from decades and they still rely on a temperature sensor that activate the compressor when could be too late (rather than an infrared camera as you said).I was not aware of the importance to keep the freezer full of frozen foods and liquids for optimum efficiency (mine is, but only at random interval).Based on this, let me see if the following idea makes sense.I could ensure that the freezer is all of time completely filled by using an appropriate number of ice bags (which I insert or remove based on the inserted or removed food). I keep ice and food into three separate layers. The food, the ice and a permanent wall made of ice packs between foods and the ice for the cooler. In this way I can build my own ice as I want and without any limit because there is the permanent layer to reduce heat penetration into the food layer.I didn't measured the internal size of the big freezer, but if you say it is still not enough, then I have one more reason to stay away from it.Just confirm me that the following idea is very bad, in this way I will not be tempted:such freezer is just below the roof. What if I power it on through a solar panel? Supposing I will get the needed energy, I will solve the problem of the high bills, I can get much more ice and no risk of food damage because this will only be an ice maker. Sound to much good and easy to be true! I'm prepared for your bad news!Thanks for clearing up the “5-10 seconds” thing. I suppose this has no impact on power consumption. Is the 2 hours running time you're talking about noticeable in term of costs?Many thanks also for the explanation on how the foods can get ruined. Not sure about the other foods, but I experiencedthe grainy ice cream you're talking about, but I've always thought it was due to the quality of the brand (it could, but now I have two different suspects).It would be a big problem if some food lose quality (still a minor problem than the suffering I have to go through on an hot room), but harmful bacteria is another story.I need to be careful and work to find the correct balance rather than put inside as much bags as I can (as was my initial plan).I got the point! My room is not open (closed door and closed window) except for brief intervals where I open the window to refresh air. Have no idea on how this can impact. Only hope to have some control on the cold I push into the room.Regarding the video, I'm afraid I can't comment anymore. I'm sure your critics are well founded and argued, but he is the only one that can respond. You're also saying that his video has been made in a tendentious way with hidden parts that are against its statements. I'm afraid I can't comment this too because it is something that has to do with trust, but what I can say is that your accuses to youtubers are not non sense. There are there people that publish projects that don't work at all, but modified in a way that they seems to be easy and the scoop of the year. I had encountered one, but such kind of fakes are usually easy to detect by the plenty of negative comments (and insults).To me Fred seemed to be an honest person, he published a second video with more details and step by step instructions and I could only see happy people.It would be a very interesting debate if Fred could join the discussion. Is there someone who know him and can send an invite?Just to be clear, in a scenario like this, without the interested person able to replicate, the only honest thing I can do is impartiality. Just want to invite you to be more friendly (calling someone idiot is not what I would call a warm welcome). Same if the guy in the other thread accepts to join the discussion.I trust you if you say that thermodynamics science can calculate everything, but there are also human factors and other unrelated variables. I think that science, combined with experiments in the field, makes information more valuable, even more when there are criticisms like yours.It's not that I love youtubers, it's just that I'm open to all sources, even more when they are conflicting.This, of course, has to be combined with a filtering of what is good and what is bad.Just for curiosity and some good and innocent irony...you said that youtubers lacks the knowledge (it's your personal opinion and is fine). If tomorrow you becomes a youtuber, you publish a DIY project and I visit your video. How I should consider you?I thought I was clear about the GOOGLE FAQ story, but I'm afraid I was wrong and since I've been judged as a poor, naive and without even the minimum common sense, I have in some way to defend myself and enter into details. I have, at least when these are the tones and the words used.QuoteYou omitted a little detail from the google FAQ:"Whole wine corks can take up to three years to fully decompose,even in ideal conditions. But you cansignificantly speed up this processby shredding or cutting them insmaller pieces."Let me explain a couple of things starting with the reliability of google:it is never a google error, if this statement is on their search results, then the same statement is also in the related url, always and with no exceptions.Let me continue with how works my bad common sense:If I read that cork can take much less than 3 years to fully decompose when it is cut into smaller pieces and the piece I need is only 8mm, then my common sense is what makes me think "Wait a moment!"I don't know why you think the contrary, but I always check the applicability after I read their FAQ. However, common sense says me that it's a waste of time checking such statement validity when this product is not available in the market in the size I need. May be you have a different common sense where you lose time to read papers about the validity of a product even if you can't have that product and that's fine.Common sense tells me that if I omit the reading of an url, the interlocutor does not respond me with a long message where he accuses me of being a poor, naive and with inexistent common sense (substantially nearly a stupid). Common sense, confirmed each time happens such little mistakes, tells me that I can simply expect "You're wrong, friend! It's related to composting", followed by a quick "Sorry! Ok, let see the other issue" from my side.Common sense tells me that when, for example, I have only 5 minutes left and I am still with an open draft, it is better to complete and send the message if there is no time for the validationCommon sense tells me that in case of scenarios like the previous point, it is not a tragedy if the validation is delayed and place it in the low priority list.Common sense tells me that if I omit the validation, the interlocutor understand, by its common sense, that this is just a a simple lack that can occur to anyone rather that getting immediately malicious to a point to think that I just want to prove he is wrong.I can continue with the list, but I think is enough.You don't want that I list all the times where people demonstrated I was wrong and I accepted without contestation, right? Because it would be a long list and a time consuming process.Given that you got yourself the freedom to analyze my personality and you have done this publicly rather than contacting me privately to tell me what was wrong, can I do the same with you?I feel like you have problems to distinguish when some statements are subjective, in particular when they are against your beliefs and you can get so hot to a point to call a person stupid (again, this is how you publicly called Fred) without even knowing him. Personal opinions are questionable and they are not a bad thing. And when you are sure it is not a matter of personal opinions, then you should be happy to proof people are wrong.What surprises me is that such behaviours are mixed with very friendly and great effort to help that I rarely see in other people, just like would happen between two friends.And this is how I see my communication with you, a funny way to take a break from more serious stuff.So, hope you do not get hotter if I got the same freedom. This is something that I never do, but when someone starts on its own I can resist for some time as I have done, then I feel the right to take the same freedom.Unlike many other people, you are for sure an interesting person.It's a shame that we are so far, it would have been very funny some evenings every while with you along with some beers.Or better, very cold beers (you agree with me that, at least as a drink cooler, my Vevor will do an excellent job, right?)

author: YouCanDoIt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2024, 06:29:28 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 10, 2024, 04:06:38 pmVery interesting project!I think that we are in a field where subjectivity plays a big role. Just to add another concrete sample..,If one person is on a big room and have to move around all of the time, will say that an ice-cooler is junk.The same person in the same room that is force to sit on a desk all of the time, will say that an ice-cooler is a life-saver.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2024, 08:01:39 am
content: In the meantime we have learned that you plan to operate your cooler in your home, where mains power is easily available. So I think you should really get something like this (random example from Amazon Italia):https://www.amazon.it/Cecotec-Condizionata-Telecomando-ForceClima-Connected/dp/B0BPZKBGF2These are proper, heat-pump based units. Like the cooler you intend to build, they pull in air from the room, guide it across a heat exchanger, and blow out cool air through the front grille. But their heat exchanger is not cooled by ice packs which you have to prepare externally, but by a heat pump (like the one in your refrigerator or freezer) which operates permanently.The heat pump gets rid of the thermal energy it extracts from the room by blowing out hot air through a large-diameter tube connected to the unit's back. You need to guide that hot air to the outside, through a hole in the wall, a cracked-open window or such. That is a weakness of these designs -- they need that "way out" for the excess heat, and will pull warm air into the room to replace the air they blow out, either directly from the outside or from the adjacent rooms. A permanently installed, much more expensive split air conditioner would be the solution to that, but I think it is out of scope here.These units also take care of the condensation problem at the heat exchanger: They catch the unavoidable condensed water and either collect it in an internal tank (which you have to empty every other day), or guide it to the outside via a small tube (if you have a suitable drain nearby).For a given total amount of heat to be extracted from the room, these units will be more energy-efficient than your freezer + ice-based cooler combination. And, more importantly, they will be able to deliver much more cooling power, sustained without regular manual intervention -- so they can actually cool a room down (somewhat) if that's what you want to achieve.

author: YouCanDoIt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2024, 05:21:31 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 11, 2024, 08:01:39 amMany thanks for the sample link.In the matter of energy efficiencyI should specify that cooling down a whole room is not my main target, but just a challenge that I would like to see if I'm able to win. The main discussion is focused on cooling a whole room due to the complexity of this task, so this, rightly, may have given to you the impression that this is my main and only one target.In reality, and just from the beginning, all I wanted and expected was to just cool a small area.People say that it is practically a lost battle and I know this, but why renouncing to the pleasure of fighting?I evaluated such kind of coolers and apart being twice expensive and the costs to keep them running, there are many other issues and serious issues.The main issue is their inability to cool down a room and I would be highly disappointed if I pay so much to just realize that what such system has been mainly designed for does not work. If you go through the comments you can see plenty of such reports and even on 8-10 square meters rooms. Running at max power (940W) all of the time and basically with any noticeable effect.Cooling down a room is not my main target, but even in "Fan mode" I'm still going to pay a good amount of extra money for a feature that I just can't use (at least for sure in my room) and that still have its own impact on bills. There are still so many reasons (I can't list them all) which makes, at least for me, a bad choice.Condensation handling is another issue, even more with my climate. You can see how, at least under specific conditions, 1 liter of water is filled per hour. My design already handle condensation problem much better and I have more control and available strategies to reduce such issue.Such units are noisy, not that the air blower motor isn't, but I have several strategies to reduce the issue, some of them already implemented.Guiding hot air to the outside through a hole in the wall would not even be a big problem, but with an ice cooler I don't even need to take care about this.You're right, a split air conditioner would solve everything at once, but the goal of such designs is to avoid such systems and still end up with satisfying results.I'm not sure if you had chance to see my diagram, but you can see that it is designed to be an air-cooler and a beverage cooler on demand (by simply detaching the processing unit). So, I can even use it to store foods and drinks on camping, travels and many other similar situations.This is another confirmation on how much is subjective this field and why the mixed reviews. It's not that it is junk, it's just that people have different needs and the limitations need always to be carefully evaluated.DIY solution is also subjective. Some people can just say "I don't want to go through the hassle to build my own". Some other people like me will say that "the hassle to build my own" is what I like more and the fun part.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2024, 10:51:26 pm
content: Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 11, 2024, 06:17:51 amWell how else would you do it, if not with a temperature sensor? (The infrared camera thing is a joke; yes, you could do it in theory, but nobody does this, and it’d be expensive.)Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 11, 2024, 06:17:51 amAbsolutely not! “Without any limit”?Dude… the heat in the water you put in spreads into everything in the freezer. Yes, the stuff closest gets the most, but it gets everywhere. As I said: heat always moves from warmer to colder. So as your ice barrier warms up thanks to absorbing heat from the water you put in on one side, the frozen food (which is colder) then absorbs heat from the ice barrier.Is it not completely obvious to you how heat spreads? Have you never noticed that if you pour hot coffee into a cold cup, the cup gets hot (and the coffee gets colder)?Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 11, 2024, 06:17:51 amSure, if it’s worth the thousands of euros it’d cost to install such a solar installation, assuming your house is even suited for solar.Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 11, 2024, 06:17:51 amWell now you’re just being dishonest. I didn’t say anything about YouTubers in general. There are many excellent YouTubers out there whose results I trust. I said that I think this particular one (Fred, apparently) is an idiot, which I stand by based on the content in question. On the slim chance that he does join this discussion, he’s free to call me an idiot if he likes.Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 11, 2024, 06:17:51 amI didn’t “omit” anything. The answer you quoted is irrelevant to the situation at hand, period.I have seen the Google snippets be wrong because Google summarized it incorrectly. And of course the many times that it replies with an answer to a different question than the one asked. And yes, I’ve also seen it just parrot incorrect answers when the web page is mistaken.Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 11, 2024, 06:17:51 amI am not having any “problem” with identifying subjective statements. It’s just that it’s obvious to me, and many others here, that you don’t know enough about the subject to identify which of those statements are a) plausible, and b) applicable to you.As for Fred: he made subjective claims which I think are BS, backed up by measurements that are meaningless. So subjectively, I think he’s an idiot. (If he isn't an idiot, then he’s a liar, which is worse.)We’ve explained the non-opinion part — the physics — to you extensively, but it’s not sinking in. There has yet to be anything resembling the “ah-ha!” moment in your head where it starts to really make sense. (At least, the only signal we have is your follow-up questions, and from those it doesn’t look like the “ah-ha” moment has happened.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2024, 11:03:38 pm
content: Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 11, 2024, 05:21:31 pmI’ve seen people use these things by having the hose going out a door or window that is kept wide open. Yeah, it’s gonna struggle like that. But used properly, with the opening sealed as much as possible, with just a small opening to fresh air to come back in, they work great. I have one right now keeping my entire 60 square meter apartment cool even as it is 30C outside. I could run it less if I wanted, by only using it to blow cool air on me.Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 11, 2024, 05:21:31 pmYour design will do fuck-all for condensation because what little humidity it can collect is limited by the very small cooling capacity of your device.You can test this easily: freeze a bottle of water (or ice pack or whatever). Put the closed bottle into a measuring cup or something. Let it stand in your room until the ice has melted. See the water that has collected in the cup? That’s how much humidity it can extract from the air. Your device can’t do any better than that, per unit of ice. (So multiply that result by however many bottles or packs you will fit in your device.) You will notice that you don’t notice any reduction in how you perceive the humidity, because it’s just not enough cooling power, and just like the heat, the humidity in the air mixes with the surrounding air. You can’t just selectively dehumidify one part of the room.

author: YouCanDoIt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:10:24 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 11, 2024, 10:51:26 pmMy surprise comes from the fact that, being programming code a good part of my life, it would be one the more basic implementation something like that. I'm not sure on we can go far without trying, but it would very easy to calculate distance between the different heat sources and implement an algorithm that activates the system at the right time.I'm not sure on the accuracy (each time I try a new technology I'm surprised to see it does what seemed to be impossible), but combined with AI it could be implemented object detection and adjust the the activation based on a specific food resistance to heat (or fallback to a safe value in case of undetected object).They probably don't do because is expensive on the hardware side, modern fridges are safer...and there are not many people that want to build so much ice for their cooler!Quote from: tooki on August 11, 2024, 10:51:26 pmOh yes, I know, you don't need to tell me that a white object is obvious that is white, but rather just explain to me why my attempt to make it darker can't work (and you do, I'm honest on this). You like so much common sense and obviousness, so it should be obvious that if I'm trying to make that object darker it's because I already know it's white. You repeat such kind of observations continuously and it's annoying. Do you think can at least reduce the number of times?I was just wondering if a permanent layer could in some way act as a barrier that reduce heat temperature and make it less dangerous when it reach the food layer. Yes, it expands anyway, my idea was reducing the incoming temperature into the food layer. It makes sense, but what does not make sense is even thinking to it because managing the space in this way would also become more difficult, because there are better strategies and because this is a remote risk.Here we place multiple hot water bottles inside the freezer all of the times to quickly cold them and we place where it is more convenient included above or between foods and never experienced any food degradation.You warned me about the risks, the real and concrete risks, but of course you can't tell me when an event like this can occur (you don't know the foods it contains, how much bags I will need to insert, freezing times of that specific freezer, configuration of temps etc).It's my job to find the right balance once you warned about the risks.Really thanks for warning me about such and other risks. No one else here has even thought to something like that.You information are really priceless and they worth even each time I have to see not good thing like being judged as someone who is not even able to recognize even the most obvious things. I accept the deal, but keep in mind that I will respond.Quote from: tooki on August 11, 2024, 10:51:26 pmNot far from mine there is an house (a new build) with such installation. I think they have done this most because of the government incentives and is probably what I should wait for and check for the bills history to get an idea on the time needed to get the investment back (supposing the current status of the technology allows to close any dependency from the energy providers).Quote from: tooki on August 11, 2024, 10:51:26 pmSorry tooki, I believed it was your general idea on all youtube stuff and because of the unrealiability due to the fact on how much is easy to fake and hide relevant data to get more views (and money) and this is something becoming always more common. If you know some reliable youtuber whose project can be trusted, feel free to post the related video.I also think there will be very little chance he join the discussion. I commented its video a month ago and I never got a response, but apparently he responds to users randomly (may be to the lack of time or what else, who know!).I hope we have more luck with the other guy especially because of its statements: he was able to cool down the whole room by 10-20C and even more for 8 hours. And he was firm on stating that when I said that from its video to me seemed a couple of degrees (which does not help at all on summer).It would become a very nice discussion if he join!Quote from: tooki on August 11, 2024, 10:51:26 pmOh yes, it's irrelevant if the size I needed was the same of the bottles, but let me quote another "irrelevant" answer so that we can put a period and stop discussing about irrelevant things:Quote from: tooki on August 10, 2024, 12:54:02 pmOh yes...much older than 3 years. And for sure you saw such seals around the cork, normally made of aluminium, plastic of what else? And for you sure you know what happens when you open a bottle and remove such seals, right? If you always finish the bottles immediately and you don't know, then let me explain. It starts degradation of the content and you can experience this within 24 hours where effervescence is nearly gone. What's the name of the process ad how interaction with carbon dioxide occurs I don't care. I only care that the internal chemistry of the bottle changes as soon as the seal is opened, with or without the cork reinserted and that's the relevant information.Quote from: tooki on August 11, 2024, 10:51:26 pmWhat I can say here, it has never happened to me (they just copy and paste the extracted content into their faq, I can't see how can occur a mistake in this process). Of yes, it happens (and many times, yes!) that it replies with an answer to a different question than the one asked. One have to play with keywords, terms and the way the question is made. It's boring, I know, but still the faster way to extract the initial relevant information rather then directly opening more urls.Quote from: tooki on August 11, 2024, 10:51:26 pmIt's not many others, but one person who saw your accuses before I could even respond and you often wrote by omitting details and in a way that I appears like an idiot (I still want to believe this is not intentionally, although I have to make a lot of efforts). You should speak without involving other persons just like I do. I'm not saying "We (me and Fred) are trying to demonstrate that...".You should provide a concrete sample when you say that I am enable to identify which of those statements are a) plausible, and b) applicable to me. If you refers to the posted videos (Fred etc) then, this time it's my turn, this is not honest. I never said that posted sources are plausible or applicable to me. I just showed that exists conflicting opinions, not that they are right and I always specified that. The only purpose of sharing a source is investigation and hear the different opinions, but you get immediately suspicious and think to that "Ah-ah! You see tooki? You're wrong..".This has never been my intention.With more than an hundred thousand views and hundreds of no negative comments, if no one contested measurements or its statements, then one date of fact is that they are meaningless to you only (or they just are all gullible persons, you might think).This does not means you're wrong, it's just that if I were you and sure about my arguments, I would use a different statement...may be something like "His measurements does not prove what he is stating unless he provides this and that data".A friend we have here in the forum didn't agree with the statements he heard from a video I posted and he just said "He is not lying, he is just mistaken". This is a much more safe, honest and humble behaviour.Oh, yes, I just said that external people should not be involved, but you have already done. So, you gave me one credit and I just redeemed it.Anyway in a video like that he must have omitted many things, you think because otherwise would prove its false statements while I think just for brevity and make the video more clear and less boring for viewers.He should have published more data and details in thatFacebook conversation, may be you could find the other data you think he omitted. Personally, I don't need.One interesting thing I noticed. Each time I recognize my faults the first thing I do is asking to accept my apologies, as happened in this and many other messages. You never did it even once and I am not referring to when you called me idiot (being defined like a poor unintuitive, gullible with no common sense = idiot), but I refer in such occasions where you probably think it would be less embarrassing to just skip and ignore. I saw this behaviour more times, but in this specific message it's even more clear because we can still see my defence against your accuse of being a person without even the minimum common sense and how you skipped such section while responding me row by row. I can guarantee you that skipping them is not a way to make them disappear.I never saw you once, not just accepting that some of your statements could be questionable, but even the open mind that such statements may have different point of views and I don't means statements that have to do with science. Oh yes, there are cases where you opened your mind and revised a bit your thought like for example when you stated that Fred, a person that you don't even know, could not be necessarily an idiot like you initially stated, but a liar. Well, what to say, still better than nothing!I often see a similar behaviour in religious people, at least in some aspects. They get hot as soon as someone question their believing. They are completely closed mind. They can't withstand any doubt.Are you a religious guy, tooki?I'm not defending Fred (as this is what would probably be your replication) and it would be even excessive if I say that I'm defending the respect that deserve every person. I would say I'm more highlighting what to me does not seems an appropriate way to talk about a person that is unable to replicate.Do not get hot tooki, take this like two good friends that every while likes to tease each other.

author: YouCanDoIt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:05:00 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 11, 2024, 11:03:38 pmThe linked one is probably the entry level one of the series and the brand also plays another role. The hose connected like that would not even be a problem for me.I just got mine and probably I'll still have nearly 5 meters at disposition once I take a cut to connect the blower to the processing unit. So, part of stuff needed is already at hand.I initially thought to integrate a peltier module as an helper that redirect some heat out of the room, but people explained all the issues and I abandoned the idea.As of now, I have no idea on what could be another possible and suitable alternative. I saw some projects powered by gas, but once I saw the dangers I ran away.Quote from: tooki on August 11, 2024, 11:03:38 pmThanks for the great explanation.When I said that my design handle humidity better I was not meaning about dehumidification, but to the better way it handles the water created by it. It drops directly into a bigger container and I can pipe it where I want in an automated way without having to deal with it manually and frequently.This is for sure not the main reason that it made me abandon the idea of buying such device, just like it isn't a concern at all for my cooler. Once I get it running, I will see how much is the impact and if I can improve. And when air is cool, it is harder to feel humidity on the skin.P.S. I was right about the hose not fitting the blower inlet. I will try with some hot air, but I doubt it will work. In prevision of that, I bought the flange connector with an higher height than the needed. I will cut the part in excess and will us it an adapter.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 07:09:07 am
content: Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 13, 2024, 05:10:24 amCooling a room down by 10-20 degC is totally unrealistic. Not even a real air conditioner can do that.I have a whole house air conditioning system with a wall thermostat. When the thermostat switches on, it cools the area down by 2 degF before switching off again. (It switches on 1 degree above the setting, and switches off 1 degree below the setting.) Subjectively, I can say that 80°F (27°C) feels warm, while 76°F (24°C) feels pretty cool. If I cooled the house down from 27°C to 17°C then I would be putting a sweater on, and if it got to 7°C I would have created a refrigerator. I would be wearing a winter coat!(But keep in mind there is no chance a home air conditioner can cool the room down to 17°C or 63°F. It just doesn't have the ability to do that.)

author: YouCanDoIt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 07:43:49 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 11, 2024, 11:03:38 pmAnd increasing power-capacity cost money for the hardware and to keep it running.We have 3 floors and the middle floor is the one with more people that move all around it. Here is where located the only AC of the house and it cools the entire floor in an excellent way.I'm on the third floor and all of the time I'm on the desk. It does not make sense to cool down the whole room.Then, I may need to stay for a couple of hours in the first floor. I can just move my cooler there and I'm done. I can't certainly buy another AC for there. Then I go to another location of the home or to a friend home where there is no AC and I bring my cooler with me.You got the point. There are infinite reasons that made an ice-cooler not just the best, but the only option which make sense and this was something planned from the beginning, but people now are convinced that I want to invent an ice cooler that replicates the same features of a regular AC and this just because I wanted to have the fun to see if I can get the room temperature down and in what amount of degree. So, when I asked for more info it started a very long discussion that is still hot and that I can't control anymore even if I stated multiple times that this is not at all my goal. I reduced my posting in the other thread hoping that will help to slow down.

author: YouCanDoIt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 08:02:17 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 13, 2024, 07:09:07 amI feel the same sensations at the different temperatures you described.Going down by 20 makes no sense, even in the hottest area of the US. I just assumed it was just for testing purposes, but once you explained the reasons why can't work, I realized how this is absurd. The only thing I can think of is that he was meaning fahrenheit, but it is still unrealistic. I really don't have any idea. Hope he can join the discussion because I'm really curious.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 11:04:07 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 13, 2024, 07:09:07 amHuh? A central air conditioning system certainly can do that if it’s adequately sized. My aunt lives in north Florida, where summer temperatures routinely reach 97F/36C with extremely high humidity, and she keeps her house at a frigid 62F/16.5C in the summer. It’s not how I’d want to keep my house, and on visits I have to bundle up (and indeed, my poor grandmother had to go outside every few hours to defrost).Similarly, a window air conditioner can do it if it’s powerful enough for the room in question.A homemade ice air conditioner, of course, can’t do anything remotely close to that.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 03:30:45 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 13, 2024, 11:04:07 amThat's impressive. It must be an impressive electricity bill too.Are houses in Florida heavily insulated? Here in California, houses are no better insulated than a tent. It's hard to keep the heat in in the winter, and hard to keep the heat out in the summer.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:43:25 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 13, 2024, 03:30:45 pmOn the east coast, I would say yes, houses are quite well insulated, and anything built since the 1960s or so will have better insulation still. They have to be, given that you have to deal with winter cold (even in parts of Florida) and sweltering, humid summers (even up north).For reference, my aunt’s house was built around 1990. No significant difference in construction compared to farther north, other than the lack of basement (since Florida is basically a giant sandbar with groundwater a few feet below the surface, making basements much harder to build).I don’t really have any experience with the Midwest, but they for sure need good insulation to deal with their brutal winters.

author: YouCanDoIt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 01:30:40 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 13, 2024, 11:04:07 amWhen I looked the video I become even more surprised to see that it does not even run a closed room. On the top left there is an hallway. He didn't specified the size of room, but at some point in the video we can see the cooler pointed against him. So, I suspect this is how he uses the cooler, as a fan when on an open space like that and as an air conditioner in a small room like a bathroom.Hope he can join and respond the questions. I have so many...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2024, 11:42:51 am
content: Quote from: YouCanDoIt on August 14, 2024, 01:30:40 amI'm not sure which "he" you are talking about.An ice-in-a-cooler–based thing is basically a fan that blows slightly cooled air at a thing. I am reluctant to even consider it an air conditioner (since a true air conditioner not only cools but also dehumidifies), not even a weak one. It's not that something like this does not create cool air. It's just that your performance expectations are far, far too high, driven by youtube videos that act as though such things are miracle devices. In reality, if they were a practical way to control household climate, we would use them. The fact that we don't should be a huge red flag.If you go to Madrid in July, when it's hot as hell, many outdoor cafes and restaurants have misters (things that produce extremely fine water spray) to cool their customers. Those work not by getting the customers wet, but by lowering the temperature of the air. Because the high ambient temperature and low humidity cause the tiny water droplets to evaporate (change phase from liquid to gas) almost instantly, and that phase change requires lots of energy (absorbing heat from the air), the air temperature has to drop as heat energy is pulled from it. If ice-based air coolers made more sense, Madrid's outdoor cafes and restaurants would have lots of boxes full of ice blowing air through them. But they don't.