Valve + Hardware Engineers = ??? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2012, 05:24:24 am
content: Some time ago, there was a bit of gossip about why Valve, a video game company, was employing hardware engineers, e.g. Jeff, Jeri, et al...and then I stumbled upon this article on YCombinator News:http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/valve_confirms_they_are_working_steam_box123Just thought I'd share.

author: HardBoot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2012, 05:36:08 am
content: It's be a hit if it had the entire steam library, a failure if it didn't... would need to be very powerful.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 10, 2012, 07:02:56 am
content: If that's the case then I hope they get a bigger hardware group!I was under the impression that Jeri, Alan, Jeff, Ben et.al were working on new types of interactive controllers or some such.They won't be able to do that research and produce a high end game console as wellDave.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2012, 07:31:08 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2012, 07:02:56 amAgreed. I'd be very surprised if this was the only hardware project in Valve's hip pocket.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2012, 09:05:46 am
content: The steam box will contain regular PC parts in a fancy case. So no real development needed on that side of things.They just need to decide on which mb/cpu/ram/vid to use, make a case for it and perhaps add some status LEDs.They obviously need controllers which is where Jeri, Alan, Jeff, Ben etc. come in.The whole unit will pretty much be a Linux box that automatically boots up into the linux version of Steam running in "big picture mode"Since it runs under Linux the number of games that run natively will be limited at first. Valve are working hard to get the source engine working under linux. They have Left4Dead running in Linux already and it's even faster than under windows.So it shouldn't be hard to get all the other games that use the source engine running as well Halflife, TF2, portal etc.Its anyone's guess whether they will incorporate WINE integration into steam for linux so x86 games can be run directly from steam, but it seems likely.I would imagine Steam for Linux will come first with a few initial source engine games. It will grow pretty quickly to include other games which already have linux versions eg, Id Quake series etc..Once they get enough games in the system the Steam box will appear.And of course, just like under steam on windows, 3rd parties will be able to release their games onto steam in linux and by reference that will make them available in the steam box

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2012, 09:31:33 am
content: Rumour has it that Bens latest idea for a new controller is x-ray based.Just kidding... But he has been doing a lot of x-ray related videos lately, I like Ben.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2012, 10:50:53 am
content: I mean really on the processing side what else do you need other than a dual or quad-core intel/AMD?I think what they need is a APU (like trinity) and the processing side is done.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2012, 10:53:07 am
content: Quote from: T4P on December 10, 2012, 10:50:53 amIt's more about what deals can you get from the manufacture to lower the cost.

author: HardBoot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2012, 11:01:57 am
content: Quote from: Psi on December 10, 2012, 10:53:07 amAMD would be a pretty good choice since they'd be a 1 stop shop for an entire system, AMD's CPUs are lacking in power but run any game just fine and are cheap. AMD's ATi is basically the best GPUs in terms of cost, performance, and power efficiency to help make up the the CPU.ATi is in the 360 and Wii and nVidia in the PS3... and you know how the costs compare.Quote from: Psi on December 10, 2012, 09:05:46 amA custom wine config for each game would actually let you run pretty much anything, only games which need really shitty software that digs into Windows wouldn't run.If Valve releases an official Steam computer... It could be as cheap as $300 and still able to run games at 1080p with high settings.It'd probably be a single-board system; $40 CPU $60 GPU, $20 power, $40 4GB DDR3 + 1GB GDDR5 $50 motherboard, $40 hard drive... $250 + case... don't need disk drive.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2012, 11:07:24 am
content: Quote from: HardBoot on December 10, 2012, 11:01:57 amATI may also be better from a linux driver perspective however i'm not sure the AMD cpus with builtin ATI video have enough power for serious gaming, so it may still need a videocard.

author: HardBoot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2012, 11:18:25 am
content: Quote from: Psi on December 10, 2012, 11:07:24 amI wasn't suggesting using Fusion, it's not good enough yet, but it won't be long until AMD has a fusion chip powerful enough for midrange gaming, the better ones are already enough for casual gaming.Having a regular graphics card and CPU soldered onto a single board with RAM keeps costs really low.Something like a 7770 would probably crush future consoles and it's just $100 OEM.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2012, 01:01:49 pm
content: The 7660D crushes the R700 in the Xbox 360 easily. Given better optimized code the 7660D can render fantasticallyThrow some natively running DDR3-1866 RAM in you're good to goPretty sure if DICE is able to write the BF3 for xbox @ 1080p running at 30FPS surely the 7660D won't be able to do it?Consoles don't really NEED to have a 7770the 7660D is good enough for midrange gaming and certainly more than twice a HD4000And... ATI is long dead!

author: HardBoot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2012, 04:29:55 am
content: Quote from: T4P on December 10, 2012, 01:01:49 pmYes it crushes the 360/PS3, but they're ancient, it'd be cheap beating next-gen consoles with a cheap application of off the shelf hardware and would put Valve far ahead of Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo for a very long time, they could quickly put most of the entire Steam library on the unit, resulting in the Valve console having hundreds more titles off the bat and any future releases would also be on for 6-8 years.Valve is also starting to put normal software on steam, so the console could be an entire replacement for a PC for many users, this could hit Microsoft and all of the PC manufacturers.Valve knows as computers turn into a walled garden where MS/Apple/Google monopolizes the distribution of software, they will be wiped out unless they take an innovative and aggressive approach.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2012, 05:13:21 am
content: Here's massive problem though : many of console gamers gone on/back to PCs for reasons- More restricted- MUCH Lower? specs- Less options- RRoD/YLoDStuffing a 125W TDP proc into a footprint like this is never a good idea (And i know it) the new xbox 360 S is still hot as hell, not as worse but still hot as hellPS3 is not barred the slamming either

author: HardBoot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2012, 05:37:07 am
content: The failure rates of the 360 and PS3 is disgusting, I don't know a single person who hasn't had their console die after 1-2 years.Such shitty expensive hardware, expensive titles and small library, limited capabilities(PS3 does less now than it did on release, Sony going backwards), it's completely ended consoles for me, and all of my friends have been turned away to varying degrees.125w processor in something the size of a Gamecube isn't even a problem, the design just can't be shit and shitly made.Steam Box may finally be a modern "console" done right since PS2/Xbox/Gamecube*. Microsoft and Sony are clearly too incompetent and Nintendo doesn't give a fuck.*Great hardware but Nintendo starting showing off their lack of giving a fuck, never took full advantage of it.

author: cwalex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2012, 11:51:30 am
content: They could use anMXMtype video card and just make it easily accessible for upgrades to save cost and still keep power consumption low with ease of user upgradeability.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2012, 01:27:36 pm
content: Yeah but it's a futile exercise since the laptop GPUs have nowhere near enough performance of a desktop one and that aside if you need performance you need a 7970M anyway which is massive in terms of power usageA console is probably limited to 60W in terms of GPU power usage and that a i3-3220 is about 55W already (And 2 cores ain't any good for gaming, actually you need something like a A10-5800k or 5600k)

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 03:30:38 am
content: Quote from: T4P on December 11, 2012, 01:27:36 pmRoughly 14 years ago, I was top-300 global ladder ranked on Starcraft bnet using a 133MHz Pentium + 4MB RAM + 28.8k dial-up connection...you've gotta be shittin' me if a modern 22nm multi-core CPU clocked an order of magnitude faster driving Linux-on-a-diet, a dedicated GPU, and broadband connectivity "ain't any good for gaming".

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 03:34:46 am
content: Starcraft is about strategy, with those sort of games the speed of your PC isn't as important.Things are changing in the gaming world, the extra cpu cores are being used for more advanced AI, simulation physics and procedural generation.It's not going to take long before games require 2+ cores. There maybe some that already do.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 03:57:12 am
content: Quote from: Psi on December 12, 2012, 03:34:46 amThe point I was trying to make is that gaming in general doesn't necessarily require ridiculous high-performance hardware, especially when piggy backed on a dedicated platform where resources can be tightly controlled.Last time I checked, the closed console model functions by designing games around the hardware platform, not the other way around. If a dedicated console can't keep up, then the game is flawed, not the hardware. My 2 cents on that note.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 05:30:27 am
content: In the same way a IBM Xenon is a tri-core proc, granted it's only probably as fast as a Pentium D but still it's a TRIPLE COREBut trust me having extra cores is a good thing (A low power performance APU will be the A10-5700 not the 5600k)I mean like come on, you seriously want a dual-core for a gaming box? Let them have a bit more computing room! This is not 2005 for god's sakeEven ARM is moving on to 2nd gen quad cores already so why not a quad-core? Considering a dual-core usually is relegated to the not so much of computational efficient per watt but efficient per dollar

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 06:53:47 am
content: Quote from: T4P on December 12, 2012, 05:30:27 amIf your innovative mindset is still stuck in the proverbial box, then sure, having extra cores is probably a good thing. But if you're an outside-the-box thinking company like Valve seeking an innovative entry to market, then not necessarily. We don't know what Valve's design requirements are and how each trade-off is weighted, so the point is moot.Quote from: T4P on December 12, 2012, 05:30:27 amEvery other closed console manufacturer on the market is doing more of the same: inject dedicated hardware with steroids (on DRM lockdown and ridiculous failure rates to boot) and hope that easily amused consumers are sufficiently distracted by pretty eye candy to actually care about why they're playing the game to begin with, viz. to have fun. Although I don't personally play video games, here's to hoping Valve promotes genuine user experience over another faux pas gimmick.Quote from: T4P on December 12, 2012, 05:30:27 amTo name a few, because...1.) blatant "monkey see, monkey do" isn't exactly considered a golden virtue (outside of China, that is);2.) max TDP is proportional to the number of cores, working against a dedicated small form-factor console;3.) price point is proportional to the number of cores, making entry into a competitive, highly elastic and volatile market that much more difficult.Quote from: T4P on December 12, 2012, 05:30:27 amWhat's to say efficiency per dollar isn't more important than computational efficiency per watt in a market with an expected low obsolescence life cycle? Did we not learn anything from Sony's initial PS3 release?

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 10:31:01 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on December 12, 2012, 06:53:47 amDon't launch a year late with less features and a higher price than initially promoted while the competition has been selling their product for the past year and a bit?

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 08:00:42 pm
content: Seriously aye, you can get quad-cores and a great GPU (not a useless HD2500 they stuff in the i3 cores which the a10-5800k goes against in the same price bracket) for 65W TDP (A10-5700k like i've just said) nowadays very cheaplyYou don't need to resort to dual-cores because the only reason AMD bins the dual-cores is the really low-grade ones, like seriously there's only 2 lines of dual-cores ( at least within trinity), A4-5300 and A6-5400k that have significantly drastic performance cut in the same power envelope (65W) albeit a fair bit cheaperSo what's the price difference between a A6-5400K and a A8-5500 then?30$. That's the difference and you get a degraded GPU in the A6

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 07:55:04 am
content: Quote from: T4P on December 12, 2012, 08:00:42 pmAnd what does a $30 difference translate to when your sales goal is on the order of 1-million units? A prospective loss that approaches $30-million if poor economic flow/lack of innovation/whatever-loser-MBA-excuse-you-can-think of wins over and sales goals aren't met. Even if we're generous and slash the cost by 1/2 to adjust for bulk purchase, we're still talking about a loss that's several times more than the tax-free lifetime earnings that you're likely to make. And in 18 months, which is still with the device's reasonable life cycle, that processor becomes de facto obsolete--largely as a consequence of consumer ignorance--and your company, your employees, and ultimate you are sucking hind tit. In other words, typical consumer mentality doesn't live long in a cut-throat industry like gaming without a truly innovative approach.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 02:49:22 pm
content: Need a quad core for gaming? Pew, what is that smell? Smells like bullshit to me...

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 02:59:03 pm
content: If they had crippled the Xbox to a dual-core then and only then will you find out we really need to move on FROM DUAL CORES.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 03:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: T4P on December 13, 2012, 02:59:03 pmWhat are you even talking about? The Xbox 360 uses a completely different architecture compared to anything you try to compare it to. I mean really, what the heck?Dual core x86-64 CPUs are perfectly viable for gaming, the GPU is the only real thing that matters these days and has mattered for a fair while now...

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 04:07:53 pm
content: Quote from: peter.mitchell on December 13, 2012, 02:49:22 pmDon't worry, game developers will find ways to utilize all the resources you throw at them. Designing a box specced for games out now is ridiculously short-sighted. It's the games coming out five years from now you should be concerned about.