Drawing schematics in KiCAD...Eagle... is so frustrating :,(( (howtogetstarted?) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 01:45:08 pm
content: Dear all,I have been tinkering with breadboards, modules and stripboard / veroboard for the most time to build one-off prototypes. Since I am not exactly shy when it comes to computers and learning new software I thought, why not give PCB layouting a go and learn as I go. What frustrates me to an unbelievable level though is that KiCAD and Eagle might easily have the worst user interface I have ever encountered. Nothing works as expected. My brain just seems to be wired a totally different way.Can you give me some pointers? Where should I start? And most of all: Are there any good alternatives you would recommend?One thing that annoys the hell out of me for example is that traces in the KiCAD schematics module are not dynamic. As soon as I drag a part somewhere, I need to redraw everything. Or did I miss the point where I did not configure a proper connection? Also, there is no usable feedback at all. Did clicking on the part select it? What was selected? Right clicking gives you a whole bunch of context menus, but feedback is shitty as with the rest. Aaaaaaarrrrggggggghhhhh!!!!!I might be doing it all wrong.I managed to draw some custom parts and put them in a library, but in general this is a PITA to use for me right now. I guess I am just to used to dynamic editing from SolidWorks and this is more like the very first AutoCAD versions...I am grateful for any pointers here!Thanks and best regards,Frederik

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 01:49:00 pm
content: Basically no.Allelctronics CAD software is a pile of foetid dingo's kidneys, without exception.

author: cowana
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 02:28:02 pm
content: Diptrace is one of the more intuitive electronics CAD packages, and is often recommended for beginners.Having said that, I am currently in the process of transitioning from Diptrace to KiCad - KiCad is a much more capable package, and actually faster to use once you get totally familiar with all the keyboard shortcuts. I agree that it isn't particularly friendly when starting from scratch, but I found it became much more obvious and straight forward over the course of a few designs.

author: ohdsp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 02:33:32 pm
content: I wouldn't completely agree with nfmax.... But all electronics CAD packages are unique for sure; some like Altium have long standingbugsfeatures that will never get fixed and the support line can't help with. Packages like Mentor are pretty horrific to use but powerful.Best thing to do is to play with a few demos/free ones such as KiCAD, Eagle, maybe some low cost options like DipTrace if you don't mind spending money; choose one that doesn't make your blood boil within 5 seconds; and then try and stick with it and learn it's ways.I find KiCAD is good, but I still keep finding little tweaks or options that make it better. I think your issue with KiCAD is not knowing how to use it, you can ctrl drag and shift drag to manipulate blocks of schematics and maintain connections without having to redraw everything.Unless you actually force yourself to design a full project in whatever software you choose you will never learn this stuff.

author: dimkasta
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 02:38:45 pm
content: What is frustrating you in eagle?

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 03:15:28 pm
content: I find the schematics editor in Kicad actually quite good. However, you do need to learn the keyboard shortcuts (you can also customize them in the menu). The way I am working is using both hands simultaneously - right hand on the mouse and the left one triggering the shortcuts:A - add component, start typing the name in the filter box and then select using a mouseM/G - move/dragC - copy (duplicate) componentW - draw a wireV - define a value for a componentF - assign a footprint (but that is better to do in bulk using the CvPCB tool)L - add a labeletc.This is very easy to remember because each hotkey matches the name of the action and the most common ones are concentrated on the left side of the keyboard, so you don't have to reach far. I much prefer this to the non-intuitive jumble of various F-keys and shift/control/alt combos that e.g. Eagle or LTSpice use.A lot of people use solely the mouse and rarely touch the shortcuts - which is a mistake, IMO. Learning the the shortcuts in a program of this level of complexity will save you a ton of time and information overload. Not to mention carpal tunnel from the constant "mousing" to the various toolbars.The only pet peeve I have with the Kicad schematic editor is the bit boneheaded behavior of wires when dragging components. That could be improved but it is not a big deal once you get used to it.BTW, a good set of Kicad tutorials is here:https://contextualelectronics.com/learning/getting-to-blinky-4-0/(it is for the older version of Kicad, but the current stable is not that much different)

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 01:14:14 am
content: You can select one more component by dragging an outline around them, then press tab. This will move them and adjust wires to match. Not intuitive, and not easy to discover... but it's there.IMO a much bigger beef is that schematic entry and PCB layout use completely different shortcuts. Hopefully this can be consolidated when the schematic end gets new features like an opengl canvas. (Which is absolutely awesome in pcbnew. Panning around is super smooth and effortless, unlike in the schematic editor.)

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 09:54:22 am
content: Thanks y’all,I will give thisKiCAD cheat sheeta go.There is also a github for meto check out...

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 05:48:43 pm
content: Quote from: bson on April 14, 2017, 01:14:14 amThis has never really bothered me, because only few actions are really common in the two editors. And you can also redefine the keys as you like them as well, soThe PCB editor has some more pressing issues than this, IMO. Such as the need to constantly switch between the OpenGL and legacy canvases because not everything works in the OpenGL one. Or the occasional crash. Or the lack of "unroute/rip track" option. It allows to either delete the track segment by segment or the entire net - this was one function I liked in Eagle.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 05:51:59 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on April 14, 2017, 09:54:22 amDon't forget that you can also press the question mark key at any time and it will give you the list of current hotkeys.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 06:18:29 pm
content: I can recommend these youtube channels, you will have clearer ideas on how to use it after watching them.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzG-t-fUV2fi9xwFsILxCRA/playlistshttps://www.youtube.com/user/contextualelectronic/playlistsand the all in one :

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 06:33:08 pm
content: There's also utilities likehttps://www.highrez.co.uk/downloads/xmousebuttoncontrol.htm, that let you bind keystrokes or keystroke sequences to mouse buttons on a per application basis. Of course its worthless without spare buttons, but with a five button wheel mouse it can remove a lot of the need to keep a hand on the keyboard.e.g. for LTspice, I have the buttons assigned as follows:Forward: {F8}{Enter} - Drag mode and select component/wire/text to dragBack: Shift for extra buttonsOther unshifted buttons/wheel: default actionBack+Forward: {F7} - Move modeBack+Left: {F3} - Draw WireBack+Right: {F2} - Component browserBack+Wheel_Up: {F8}{ENTER}{CTRL}r{ENTER} - Select part & rotate clockwiseBack+Wheel_Down: {F8}{ENTER}{CTRL}r{CTRL}r{CTRL}r{ENTER} - Select part & rotate anticlockwiseBack+Wheel_Click: {F8}{ENTER}{CTRL}e{ENTER} - Select part & flip

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 06:41:02 pm
content: I tried every EDA I could get my hands on and came to the conclusion that they all suck. They're all buggy, quirky, and not particularly intuitive. Using one is a matter of picking something, sticking with it for a while, trying not to get too frustrated, then learn the shortcuts and after a while you'll stop noticing that it sucks. IMO KiCad is as good as anything else affordable to the typical hobbyist. If you have deep pockets and/or are designing complex multilayer boards, RF stuff, things like PC motherboards and such then Altium or OrCad may be worth looking at but KiCad does everything I need.