Electronics waste - What can we do? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 14, 2010, 12:52:48 pm
content: Electronics waste is an increasing problem as device life spans are reduced and the number of devices increase.In many cases electronic products are exported to poor cities/countries/areas where the toxic chemicals present in the product are released into the water supplies or air causing all sorts of health problems.Electronic Trash Village - ChinaMining coltan, a source for tantalum used in tantalum capacitors, in Congo is also another problem.A question for all of you: What can we as product designers and engineers do to minimise such adverse effects from electronics products?

author: Balaur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 14, 2010, 02:21:16 pm
content: Oh boy, so many things to say about this!In my perfect world, I would love to play with everything: electronics, mechanics, car, wood, food, energy, whatever.I would have perfect tools, materials, energy & time to try everything at least once.By extension, I wish the world the same:- go ahead, forget that old mobile phone and here, take a new one, I've made it; I'm an electronics engineer- don't worry, break your legs in that black ski trail, my friend here is a doctor; he can fix you in no time and no money- you are hungry, no problem, let's make some meal with that stuff I'm growing in my own reclaimed desert gardenThe paramount condition to morally afford all this is to not be a dick to:a) the othersb) to the environmentFor a) to make it possible we need people to cool a bit, to be less stupid, to not pursue excessive wealth and power, let other live their life, and be kind to animals. This will never happen due to fundamental issues in the basic fabric of the humanity.b) means that you can play with your toys, spend whatever means you need to pursue your interests, but leave the playroom at least as nice as you found it. While I don't hope anything about a), I love to think that we can do something about this point.The problem is that, for starters, any kind of electronics disposal/recycling process is ultimately an imperfect process: we lose precious materials that are (for now) a limited resource. We bleed gold, aluminium, silver, copper, rare metals, you name it. Overall, it makes more sense, economically, to mine for new resources instead of reclaiming the existing ones in the disposed electronics.This is just a general observation, there are also a lot of fields where the recycling works. I'm a big fan of re-using; in my younger years, I was ferociously disassembling any discarded board to recover all the components. Not so much anymore; it makes perfect sense to recover the nice and valuable components on a board (whenever I have the time) but I don't really care too much about resistors, caps, most SMD components including transistors. There are too reasons for that: one is that I would rather spend my time doing something nicer and two, I can buy thousands of resistors and caps for peanuts.So, if a DIY enthusiast like myself would rather buy new components instead of reusing perfectly good old ones, you can imagine what happens at the industry level, where there is not even possible to build something from reclaimed components.So, if you establish that re-using in electronics is not feasible, then we are left with the recycling.However, recycling is very imperfectly implemented at all levels in all the industries. We lose materials, we poison people, we don't give a fuck about the earth. Until a large-scale molecular/atomic-level manipulator is made to disassemble everything and put the individual materials in nicely labeled containers, there is no hope for making the human activity a perfectly ecological occupation.This problem is exacerbated by the fact that there is a continuous progress of the toys we make, accompanied by a premature disposal of the old in the favor of the new. This is IMHO a fundamental issue of electronics. I'm not delusional, I'm perfectly aware of the fact that my job is largely a result of the artificially-sustained people's thirst for new, shinier toys. Do you realize that our profession could not be sustainable when you buy a new TV every twenty years? Honestly, you can design and manufacture stuff that could last for decades. Paradoxically, we should welcome bulging caps, made-to-fail power supplies, cheap, rapidly failing components, under-sized resistors, continuously changing standards, new codecs, 3D TV, HDTV, Bluray, etc as our savior.If we want to drastically reduce the pollution we put in the air, in the ground, in the lungs of people from undeveloped countries and as a payback on ourselves when we buy cheap stuff made from ground hopes and young children tears, there are shockingly simple solutions:- design and manufacture good stuff- don't be thrifty- look for more enjoyment from what you have instead of looking for 5-seconds of playtime with a new toyDo you think that this will happen soon?In my view, the whole humanity is a giant pyramid scheme, where most of its individuals try to competitively (destructively???) one-up each other, while the top is laughing all the way to the bank.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2010, 04:06:24 pm
content: A common approach to waste is ~ 4 R points:reusethe wasterecyclethe waste into another productreclaimthe basic raw materialsreduceconsumptionTalking about what manufacturers should do or what other should do is futile, their job is to manufacture and the only way to counter that is to reducedemandand what others do is up to them.What can we do as individuals? If you do design electronics focus on reduced parts count, reduce power consumption, generic components and accessories, and increase its usability.As designer or end user, the longer you can stretch out an objects usefulness to you/someone the better it is.If you don't anticipate the project being used or its just an exercise in design, why make it a permanent prototype? Don't solder it, and reuse as much as you can in parts.Only a professional waste disposer can reclaim the materials used, and we leave that to them, i.e, extract the copper, gold, silver, plastics etc., into basic raw materials.In SMT designs or those with very high integration, its less likely to reuse the parts rather than the whole finished product; in a way large discrete parts are more 'recyclable' in that regard as they can be disassembled and reassemble into something of value.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2010, 08:16:39 pm
content: I think they should require all electronic parts in consumer devices to have public datasheets and create a program where they collect old electronics and sell them for cheap to engineers.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2010, 09:11:14 pm
content: Yes, in the old days that would be well served by having a schematic. Instead of sell they can give it free,The logistics of transport would be payment enough. Today those places are the "candy" junk stores, increasingly rare places, like Apex Electronics in CA.Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 14, 2010, 08:16:39 pm

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2010, 09:17:48 pm
content: I don't think we should stop exporting to China for disposal or importing raw materials from Congo as this would make them even poorer. I think putting more pressure on the governments of said countries in the hope they try harder to improve things. There again, I don't think the governments will listen, there's no easy solution.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2010, 08:49:57 pm
content: I'll try not too rant but: they make the crap that lasts so short a time, they get it back, as I've said before I use a limited amount of gadgets as i'm well aware that everything these days is made not to last. if the stuff was made to last longer we would have much less of an issue, I have seen so many items made purely to satisfy for the moment but destined to fail quickly or be of such bad design and poor construction that the user throws them out quickly.The solution is that our governments start to control imports and stop letting the crap in, on our side because this is as much our fault too !!! STOP BUYING IT, you know it will fail quickly: don't buy it in the first place, I'm not interested in the politics of it all and I've not read all of the thread, but the problem is simple and so is the solution, we the human being are very greedy and selfish, the everyday jack and harry has to start taking responsibility for his spending habits and consciously choose better quality products that may cost more but will last far longer, that way the crap will be pushed off the marcket and there will be far less waste, it is easy to blame governments too but essentially there is far more "in our hands" than we care to admit.Good luck on fixing the world.....

author: Longhair
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2010, 07:02:48 am
content: The simplest way to stop electronics waste is to stop falling for the "new and improved" versions that come out every 6 months.For example, there are 62 different versions (model / capacity) of the Apple iPod since its release in Oct 2001.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 17, 2010, 07:50:20 am
content: quite ! my desktop started 3 years ago and still has many of it's original parts, the "new" processor is second hand and my old stuff went into making another PC for my dad. my laptop is a second hand one that's 5 years old and is fine for my needs (infact out matches my more modern work pc)I've never bothered about the latest phones even had second hand ones and I've stopped buying stereo systems and portable CD players because they are made to fail (don't get me started on that one), and all in all for this "spartan" techy life I lead I'm quite happy and feel no less technological. idiots need to look good with the "latest" stuff intelligent people can work with anything and be as competent !

author: Longhair
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2010, 10:47:05 am
content: I built my first real computer (VP-6, Dual Pentium 3, 2GB RAM, etc.) back in 2001-02 and it kept up with all the current computers up until a year or so ago when it finally got tired - parts failing and hard to replace. I decided to follow the 10 year plan (same computer for 10 years until it fails) and bought a Dell Precision T7400 (Dual Quad Core, 8GB RAM, etc.) not because it was the fastest or newest but because those specs were workhorse specs that I knew would keep me going for a long period of time.I have 2 MP3 players - Creative Nomad Jukebox Zen and a Creative Micro Zen. The first one needed to be "replaced" because after 3 years, the battery has been cycled out. Instead of throwing it in the trash, I put a 60GB laptop hard-drive in it, bought a cigarette lighter adapter for the car. The reason I went with the 2nd one is because it was the only one on the market at the time (very hard to find because it was discontinued) that had a replaceable battery. After 3 years of owning it, the battery died and I just replaced it with a new Creative brand direct replacement battery.The external network hard-drive systems that I bought all have the ability to replace the hard-drive unlike the newer units which are sealed - the average consumer will just toss it when the hard-drive needs replacing.I do these things because I hate change, not because I want to save the world.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2010, 11:43:25 am
content: Your way is a good way, and its is earth friendly as a consequence for your other reasons.A better way to approach recycling, because it effect should be felt by a user right away.One other item is cost; the longer you keep your older devices running, the less you spend on it .. assuming its reliable. I do not think the regular consumer can make that choice as well a hobbyist or EE, but we should choose our gadgets to last, since we have the technical knowledge to go beyond superficial instrument and get inside it and repair or improve on it as needed.I keep computers as long as you do, and have a Zen like you have too, for the same reasons. I find the batteries on eBay and I keep a small stock in the freezer ... Li ion chemistries deteriorate with time even without use, cold impedes that.Quote from: Longhair on December 17, 2010, 10:47:05 am

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2010, 12:22:53 pm
content: I also try to minimise my electronic waste by using stuff as long as possible and also by not buying newif at all possible. I truly hate buying new, because most of the time it's not necessary.I haven't bought new PC hardware in years, in fact most of what I own was used and simply discradedbecause not powerfull/new/shiny/fashionable enough.I recently got a used LCD screen from a friend "Because the GF doesn't like it. It's grey and doesn't suitour living room." I mean, WTF? What can you say to that?"Thanks, my desk is grey so it's a perfect match!", of course.I keep the old stuff going for as long as possible and save the world a few kg of rubbish and I save alot of money as a bonus.Most people just want the newer/shinier/better stuff as sort of status symbols, a kind of 21st century dickswinging contest if you like. That's just idiotic on many levels, I think.And, no I do not believe that this is ever going to change again. Neither the consumers nor the manufacturers are going to change their behaviour. The consumer just wants new crap every 6 months orso, and the manufacturers just want to sell as much crap to them as they possibly can.

author: Longhair
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2010, 12:56:14 pm
content: I think with the current global recession, the lack of money will force a new mentality of keeping something for a long time.Companies will stop pushing new versions every 6 months once they realize that nobody is buying their product on the same levels as 5 years ago - the whole reason why disposable products flourished. This new generation will learn the hard way that they will not be able to get the latest and greatest while learning the meaning of "No, you cannot have it just because you want it."One can only hope that the side effect of this current recession will make products have a longer lifespan not only on the shelf but in everyday use.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 17, 2010, 05:15:24 pm
content: try telling that to pound and 99p shops and their customers, I thought I got a great bargin on a SD to USB adapter (it's like a memory stick that you put the card into). it lasted a few months of occasional use. That was the last piece of electronics I bought for 99p, with the recession people are heading off to the cheapest shops they can find selling the cheapest and worse garbage and still will not see that they are spending more in the long run. Your average human being is very very stupid, were we not exempt from natural selection due to our technological and social achievements natural selection would have made us a highly intelligent animal and we would be far fewer, oh but wait if we were much cleverer we would still start to survive even if more stupid due to our social and technological advancements and still end up stupid and buying cheap crap over and over........

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2010, 07:18:05 pm
content: On a sad note, engineers who live off making designs have to make new products to stay in business. So promoting more consumption is beneficial. If they are not designing new gear, or repairing them, both ways they are employed.If one designed a product to last forever, there is little need for the creator, maybe a few to oversee production. Once everyone has a product, there is little to no growth, and hardly a need for production now except when the product breaks from accidents or if the population grows. Those who die can sell or pass on their product to the next generation.Luckily, reliability is a consumer demand and today products lose favor with their owners mostly from obsolescence: not small enough, not fast enough, not light enough, not aesthetic enough, and less so it doesn't work as designed. NTSC gave way to ATSC, 1 Mhz to 1 Ghz CPU cycles etc., and the old gear is now waste. But as many have seen with this trend, reliability means the 'electronics repair shop' and their technicians, are increasingly extinct.

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2010, 07:28:49 pm
content: I think excess consumption is a bad thing. Its kind of within the natural order of things for technology to progress which is going to force a type of minimum rate of consumption. To think of a device lasting forever and nothing ever needing to be renewed, replaced, or updated kind of infers technology stops progressing, to me.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 17, 2010, 08:08:37 pm
content: the repair technicians are extinct because TV's and other consumer items are not worth repairing, they are cheaply and crapily made in china and for the cost of a couple of hours labour can be replaced. I kept alive two hifi systems for my dad by replacing the CD drives that failed far too soon (Both philips) the new CD drives that I got as a favour off the local TV repair man I befriended costs half the price of the unit, one of the machines required completely dismantling and took hours to repair the other that was a cheaper machine still took an hour to repair if not more, consider, if a pro had made the repair it would have costs the value of a new machine, most people would just buy a new machine not caring about the ecological side to it and only seeing that for the cost of repair they could have a brand new unit not realizing it is about as good as the original unit replaced.I have a thing about units made to fail, and no it does not give "engineers" a permanent job, I'm sure it takes less than a real engineer to chance a case design or move a switch and call the same piece of crap a new machine.I'm afraid that poor quality is at the order of the day these days it don't help engineers only the cheapscate bastards making and selling the stuff ! if the crap really helps engineers then they are indeed very incompetent and can hardly be called engineers !The government should stop worry about limiting our liberties and fining us for things like flying in the name of being green and stop rubbish being sold, it has to be made from natural resources that are wasted, these have to be transformed into products and are shipped around the world using FOSSIL FUEL THAT POLUTES, then it is sold to us mugs goes wrong in a year or less and goes into the bin.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2010, 09:14:34 pm
content: The government could heavily tax all imports from south east Asia which would make electronic equipment worth repairing but it would be very bad for the economy.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 17, 2010, 09:39:45 pm
content: well there would be a case for it in part, if the china imports cost more then it would be worth while making stuff in the UK and other countries that have lost their industry and would feed money straight into the public coffers saving us from the heavy taxation we have to suffer.did you know that every DVD writer made has to have a license paid for to the central body that controls the standard ? guess what the standards body was doing up to a few years ago ? they were charging the Asian and Chinese manufacturers more than the European manufacturers to help make the European manufacturers more competitive.Why should I pay more for "green" things (electricity, flying, places i can and can't go with my car and so many more cons) when I'm forced to buy over and over products that pollute more and more ?At the end of the day if prices went up we would think twice before buying the trash, the trash would start to fade out as we choose better quality stuff possibly made in Britain and guess what ? yes you guessed it: we would actually have more people back in work, a country full of people that are actually competent in something practical and we would be exporting and making the country richer again !!!

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2010, 03:26:54 am
content: This is why I really feel like I missed out. From what I've seen the glory days of electronics are long gone. New stuff was being developed all the time, plenty of jobs, and you could still work with commercially produced products on your own. For example the mods Dave made to his Tandy. I got to play a Tandy Colour, and I had loads of fun just playing with it. These days you can't do anything with anything you buy. It's all so closed up, and if it breaks it's impossible to fix.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2010, 08:27:37 am
content: money makes the world go round - not what is good for us and nice

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2010, 11:05:30 am
content: Quote from: Simon on December 17, 2010, 09:39:45 pmThat's protectionism which actually cripples the economy more than it helps it.You might think that having more stuff made in the UK would be a good thing but it'll be more expensive and won't necessarily increase the number of jobs as much as you may think due to highly mechanised productions lines and cheap labour from poor areas of the EU. This brings up another point, if we cut imports from China we'll get more stuff made in Poland, Lithuania, Romania etc.Another problem is if the Chinese realise our government are making it difficult to import from them, they'll put up similar barriers to buying stuff from us. Once governments start to refuse trade with each other, it messes up the global economy and increases the threat of war. In my opinion, free trade is the key to world peace, just look at all the countries we have trade agreements with vs those we don't, then look at the ones we're most likely to go to war with. People go on about how dangerous China will be in a few years time but it's all rubbish because they depend on us for a large proportion of their economy. To take it to the extreme, take North Korea for example, look at how little trade they do with the outside world, then look as how much of a threat they pose.QuoteOf course the best solution for the economy would be to adopt a free and open standard which doesn't need any silly licence fees.QuoteThe problem is the way electronics are marketed. A computer is only designed to last for a few years before being upgraded to something better. You could opt not to upgrade your PC but you'll be forced to at some point as you'll want to run the latest software.

author: mzacharias
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2010, 11:55:37 am
content: Quote from: Simon on December 17, 2010, 08:08:37 pmNot extinct but definitely an endangered species! As always, we have to adapt and try to keep fixing that which is worth fixing. Also,for the foreseeable future there is a small subset of repair work involving vintage audio.More and more though people use and dispose of home theater receivers. Repairing the common HDMI complaints usually consists of replacing a board which is too expensive to consider unless under warranty, usually 2 years. Even if it were economical, the parts availability won't be there. They need to have standardized cards like computers for that stuff.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2010, 12:34:14 pm
content: Well we should start to look at what we import, very sorry to upset stroppy china but I don't liketheir products if they are rubbish, if they want to get in a strop because we will not buy rubbish making a few chinese industrialists rich hard luck, yes we are propping china up so really they are a limited threat but do you seriously think we will stop buying from them over night.I'd also limit imports from all countries, we have people out of work yet are outsourcing all our production to other countries. I'm not for setting up barriers between us and the rest of the world but we are screwing ourselves or rather the government and a limited number of rich people are screwing the public allowing this to go on.The bottom line is MONEY, MONEY and more MONEY, money over rides: ecological practices, human rights, quality, customer satisfaction, value for money (which is confused with being so cheap its crap anyway), people in the country the item is sold in having a job, the whole economy having a value, the ability to compete with properly made products because they are priced off the market, actually having a useful product that does what it says on the tin and is not a joke.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2010, 01:03:55 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 18, 2010, 11:05:30 amOh and I forgot to say that you'll be forced to upgrade in the end as people will start emailing you files which you need the latest software to read.Using free software such as OpenOffice.org will help to some extent but even then the newer versions will require a hardware upgrade sooner or later. For example OpenOffice 3.x requires 256MB of RAM (512MB recommended) which might seem fine for an old machine but version 4 will probably need 512MB (1GB recommended) and if your machine is too old to add another stick of RAM it won't run properly. Stick with 3.x if you like but it'll be worse at opening the latest MS Office files than the latest version.http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/sys_reqs_30.htmlQuote from: Simon on December 18, 2010, 12:34:14 pmThe Chinese can make quality products, especially if it's a Japanese company operating inside China. I have a Casio scientific calculator which is made in China and it was reasonably priced but has not gone wrong once. I bought a much cheaper no name Chinese calculator with a similar level of functionality for much less and it often locked up and needed resetting, eventually the LCD started to fail so I threw it out.QuoteStill it's protectionism, imagine you want to get 1000s PCBs made but are forced to use a more expensive manufacturer because of the government, it would limit your profit margins.Come to think of it, we use cheap labour in other countries like the Romans used slaves. I bet unemployment was high in ancient Rome but they all had a high standard of living compared to other countries at the same time. Also guess what? Back then Rome traded with more countries from further afield than anywhere else. Now using cheap labour might seem immoral but it's better than slavery as the workers do get something and eventually living standards in less developed nations will rise as they currently are in China. When China has a similar level of standard of living as the EU, Canada, US etc. lots of the manufacturing will probably move to Africa where labour will still be cheap. In fact the Chinese are currently investing a lot of money in Africa in the hope they can do lots of trade with them in future.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2010, 01:37:13 pm
content: and as the world stands having every person living like we do is unsustainable, as it is with rich europe and america we are stressing the planets resources and generating a lot of waste, what will we do when everyone in china has our standard of living (buying rubbish). So we come back to the same problem/solution: the consumer who needs to take responsability for what he/she chooses, unfortunately in not taking on this responsability before we are in a position where there is little choice. Like I said it's all about money and how rich the already rich can get. if the human being was truly moral we would not be in this position in the first place, the main parts of my PC are up to 3 yearsold and really providing I have no hardware faults I'll probably be happy with it for another 2 years at least unless somebody like microsoft forces me to change. For example the new MSN messenger will NOT run on XP, this is ludocrus, it is impossible that it is technically impossible to make the new messenger run on XP, but no they have done it purposely to just refuse to install on XP so that people wanting the funky new app have to upgrade OS and probably upgrade computer !What did I just say ? MONEY and I say it again it is all abot money and profits for already rich people ! get rid of money and this world will be a wonderful place to live in !

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2010, 02:41:54 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 18, 2010, 01:37:13 pmThe consumer has little choice but to upgrade and doesn't have to deal with the problems of the waste when they throw it out.Maybe making the manufacturers pay for disposal cost is a solution?Making the consumer pay directly won't work because it'll just increase fly tipping.QuoteHave you looked for alternatives to MSN?I don't use it myself but there might be something better out there.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2010, 03:53:11 pm
content: the solution is not make crap in the first place, a better solution is have a gov body that inspects and tests stuff and accepts it's fitness for purpose with longevity, or a comercial body should set themselves up to recommend stuff based on tests but then you have to trust them and and their "mark"

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2010, 07:46:57 pm
content: Well, everybody who upgrades their PC just because of a stupid piece of M$ software is a mug, in my opinion. Is the old MSN Messengercompatible with the new one? Probably, yes. So it will still be possible to contact other people. I very sparingly use MSN on my trustyold Win2k machines, so I'm no expert but as far as I can tell I can talk to people running Vista or Win7 and a newer version of MSN.I will not be bullied into buying a new OS just because the manufacturer would like me to.If it's a vital piece of software that you need to run a business and make money, OK. That's different. But just because the new appis more funky than the old one? No.There is a scheme in place at least in Germany (maybe the whole EU?) that requires the manufacturers of electrical stuff to pay forthe disposal of electronic goods. The consumer simply returns broken units where he bought them or at his local tip.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2010, 07:51:57 pm
content: yea similar in the Uk but a big joke, if you buy something you can take the old one back to the shop to be disposed of, yea right, I am quite willing to guess how most of it is really disposed of

author: XynxNet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2010, 08:03:17 pm
content: I think the solution is internalisation of these external costs which are currently paid by our environment and our general public. This means tax on pollution and exzessive use of resources. I don't believe that anything will change unless people feel the problem in their money bags.Unfortunatly any kind of this sort of regulation, does't fit the current ideology, although some small steps in this direction are made, for example the electronic waste laws in europe.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2010, 08:09:47 pm
content: so are basically suggesting what I did in a more logical way. Promote good quality products that are not made as "throw away gadgets" and possibly encourage the price to rise by giving quality products a better place in the competition, then the waste would diminish.maybe put a disposal tax on the crap and not on stuff that is of quality, that way prices even out, the costs of this testing can come from the tax on the crap, but of course then you are again back to what i suggested: taxing imports and/or taxing crap imports heavily.until someone or many in fact put their hands up and say: we will pay more for good quality things will never change. 21st century man is a very ignorant and stupid animal, it will be our undoing, if you look at it in a dis-attached way it is obvious that we are fast burning out our natural resources and destroying the planet over: MONEY

author: Zyvek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2010, 08:50:46 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 18, 2010, 02:41:54 pmThat's what happening in my state, which really means the prices will go up for consumers and with the new collection rules I won't be able to scavenge as much from old electronics as I used to.But I suppose that's more good than bad.I'm always skeptical about recycling after seeing the Penn & Teller Bullshit! show on recycling anyhow. Recycling programs seem to do more to make people feel good than actually do good.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 19, 2010, 08:43:42 am
content: Quote from: Zyvek on December 18, 2010, 08:50:46 pmYou hit the nail on the head, waste is waste, "the solution" is to not make it in the first place, Yes beuarocrats are not clever enough to design and implement a recycling scheme, but it makes people feel that they are doing their bit and and takes away the guilt of buying today and discarding tomorrow