A petition to bring us back the knob!? A complaint to modern soldering stations - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: aronake
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 09:25:25 am
content: Why have pretty much all modern digital soldering stations given up on having the perfect interface for setting temperature which is good old-school knob?Knobs are Fast, accurate, intuitive etc.These days we get annoying, slow to operate buttons.The knob on a modern digital soldering station could be implemented with a multi turn rotary sensor.I just got a Weller WX2 with a couple of different irons etc. Absolutely wonder full for soldering. However Weller have made the decision to take the annoying buttons one step further and implemented a terrible "circular touch pad" for setting temperature. As there are 2 preset buttons, the "circular touch pad" is not much used, but once needed, annoying!Im hereby starting a petition for us to get the knob back.Make a replay here with "+1" to show your support. If you want also include some words on how annoying you feel the buttons to be compared with a knob.Once we have reached enough people we bring this to Hakko, JBC, Weller, Metcal etc.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 10:45:57 am
content: The various 936 clones are still in production... if you want a knob you can still get one with a knob.What I'd really like to see, however, is a station with an analogue temperature gauge.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 10:56:12 am
content: Quote from: aronake on August 10, 2016, 09:25:25 ami guess because new kids on the block (users or designers) have bad taste on vintage looking knobs making the demand/production of buttons crap type becomes the defacto. the sense of practicality is ripped away from their soul and filled with the sense of aesthetics, the sense of nonsense. btw my clone 852AD is using knobs, but i find myself will always reach my non-temp-controlled hakko, no knobs no buttons (err, just one button for high wattage setting), and then just solder away. my clone temp-controlled 852AD is just for melting plastics.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 10:58:57 am
content: Just buy the iron (not the complete station) and build your own powersupply/temperature controller.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 11:23:33 am
content: Ersa uses a knob in their I-CON soldering stations.

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 11:27:26 am
content: Vacancy on the market, introduce your own station and profit !

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 11:47:59 am
content: I don't like knobs or temp control.I've had literally everything iron-wise from high end Weller TCP and WS51, Metcal, Hakko 936 (genuine and two clones) and I find they are all like driving an automatic car. The gearbox (control loop) just pokes you in the eye constantly. The cheapest Metcal was pretty nice but the tips were too expensive for the average user.Now I'm going to be crucified for this but you know the thing I always end up back with... There is no piddling around with setting temperature or arguing with it. The Antex C15. 90% of TH jobs and ALL non massive package SMD jobs, this thing is a little demon. You can get it in all the holes that other irons won't reach into, it doesn't get hot handle or require any maintenance. You just plug the damn thing in and solder. The bits are cheap and far better than even the Weller ones.This is what I mean by size:These aren't no brand crap firesticks for ref; very good irons still made in the UK.I keep the TCP around for when I need to blast something.Again, no knobs or buttons

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 12:06:18 pm
content: I keep mine in the bottom of the tool box. It must be 25 years old at this stage. But, I have two Metcals and the get used for any serious work.

author: RobertHolcombe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 12:18:14 pm
content: Easy and simple temperature adjustment is justified in entry level stations where it is necessary to increase temperature to compensate for low thermal capacity when working large thermal mass joints. I think a knob, rotary encoder or programmable buttons for preset temperatures are all fine solutions for these stations. High end stations simply don't require frequent temperature adjustment because they don't suffer from the same shortcomings.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 12:20:07 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on August 10, 2016, 12:06:18 pmExactly. If I still did serious work I'd still have one

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 07:24:12 pm
content: I have a Hakko FX-951 and never change the temp. No need to. I also have a Metcal. No issues with sagging thermal capacity with either one of them.

author: Tandy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 07:31:51 pm
content: Quote from: setq on August 10, 2016, 11:47:59 amSadly not the case any more, we used to stock Antex irons but in the last couple of years they started shipping us 'Made in China' stock. Although some are made in the UK a majority are not any more and they were not willing/able to guarantee UK made stock so we decided not to stock them any more as being Made in the UK was part of the justification for the higher cost.Nothing wrong with things made in China but costs to produce in the UK are much higher, so Chinese made units should cost less but this reduced cost not being passed to the consumer in lower sale price, in fact prices go up ever year from Antex.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 08:16:31 pm
content: Damn shame.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 08:59:43 pm
content: Quote from: aronake on August 10, 2016, 09:25:25 amComplex, stupid UI's like the WX are the problem. Hakko's alarm clock interface is another bad UI example (although much better than the WX). Don't confuse bad UI design with the control style.I don't have a problem with the up/down buttons on the WD2M for example.

author: Maxlor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 09:21:09 pm
content: My Ersa i-Con has up/down buttons that work reasonably well; still, it takes more than 10 times as long to set the temperature to the desired level compared to an analog knob. An optoencoder would be nice. Given the prices of soldering stations, that should be doable.And also, why bother with single digits at all, why not have 5°C or even 10°C increments by default

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 09:23:24 pm
content: Mine has up/down and 3 presets, and IMO that's as good as it gets.Knobs get knocked and need verifying/resetting, and after getting used to digital displays the psychological disturbance of not being able to set a precise round number makes them unbearable

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 10:58:53 pm
content: The digit pad on the Hakko 939 is still better. Fire and forget.

author: Gary350z
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 02:04:15 am
content: +1. I prefer the knob. Maybe with one button to lock it.

author: Goodwill Hunting
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 02:16:30 am
content: I dislike the Hakko FX-888D's temperature control interface so much that I bought a used Hakko 937 to replace it. I can set that one simply, while the 888 I had to look in the manual every time because it never made sense to me.

author: Gary350z
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 03:11:05 am
content: Quote from: Goodwill Hunting on August 11, 2016, 02:16:30 amExactly the point.With only 2 buttons and confusing and poor user interface, if you press the wrong button or sequence you erase the calibration and you are screwed if you don't have the $200 calibrator.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 03:31:20 am
content: Why don't things have knobs these days? For the same reason lots of interfaces these days (hardware and software) aren't as efficient or intuitive as their predecessors -- designers want their products to look different, which means "not like what came before".

author: Gary350z
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 03:47:24 am
content: Watch this video to get the point across about not have knobs:https://youtu.be/WgoGhnlJHas?list=PLkVbIsAWN2lvK9wLg2pwcXJLut_-_P9G4&t=2618It's quite informative and amusing.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 05:06:15 am
content: LOL! Does no one study interaction design anymore? I guess penny pinching and speed to market are more important.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 08:08:59 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 11, 2016, 05:06:15 amEveryone is still doing it. Unfortunately there are some horrible design methods purely driven by aesthetics creeping in driven by recent efforts from Apple, Google and Microsoft to entirely destroy usability. This is an unhealthy HCI change if you ask me.The one that really kills me is the whole "flat design ethic" that comes with it which removes any distinguishing features from UI elements in software that define what interaction you can have with them. For example, buttons with a raised effect, entry fields with a recessed effect and no watermark. Now you can't tell the difference between an entry field with a watermark or a button. If you are colour blind then you're up poop creek.The real problem with this is that it is starting to creep into tangible devices and not just virtual user interfaces on computers.

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 08:28:23 am
content: It's why I bought a (new original) Hakko 936.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 08:50:15 am
content: Quote from: aronake on August 10, 2016, 09:25:25 amMulti-turn is not really needed, the single turn analog pots always provided enough resolution.The problem with modern digital readouts though is that people then expect to be able to set 1degC resolution.

author: daybyter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 09:17:24 am
content: I would combine the best of both worlds. A rotary encoder plus up/down buttons. So you can turn the knob to 283 dg C and then press 3* down to 280 dg if you want. You can also have predefined settings if you need them.Until then, I'll try to keep my age old weller station running. If it fails, I have one of those Hobbyking stations as a backup. So only knobs for me.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 09:42:18 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 11, 2016, 05:06:15 amNo, its just that they do what sells. Nowadays people will rather buy an original-looking thing with "modern" looking elements regardless of whether they may prove less convenient later - they sometimes even do when it's obvious it will be. Guess the world is becoming too boring, and given that actually doing things isn't considered that important anymore design has a nicely paved way.There's a great example in the R/C world... There's a case design that has been used and reused with slight variations for about 20-30 years now, for the very good reason that it's just perfectly appriopriate for the job. 3 years ago a new product came out based again on that proven design and of which the strengths were rather the features and price where people get a LOT more than any one else's offering, but in the end the most common complaint is precisely that it looks old. A significant number of people have pretty clearly stated that they wouldn't purchase a new future product if it didn't have an "up-to-date" design... So that's what they'll get, it will probably be less appropriate, but they won't complain because usability is less important than looking cool next to the others at the field

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 09:25:55 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on August 11, 2016, 09:42:18 amYes! Exactly the point I was making in an earlier comment. It's quite sad and seems to me a lack of sufficient creativity to maintain good usability while providing sufficient differentiation.Now this is where China is able to, intentionally or not, benefit from reproducing earlier designs. Skip the cost of designing an interface from scratch and get the already optimized usability. Of course, some products still flop from poor software behind the interface. D'oh!

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 09:45:35 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 11, 2016, 09:25:55 pmTo me we've just hit a plateau like in many fields. Everything's been tried, the bad solutions thrown away, and we know the good ones. But people get bored, they want change, so there's no choice other than bringing back bad solutions just for the sake of change - at which point people will eventually realize again that they're poor, go back to the tried and true solution (it's welcome change again!) and the cycle just repeats forever, helping fuel the system by calling for regular replacements.I see that in various fields, reliable, safe working systems have been designed and improved between the 70s and about 2000, and now that it "just works" it has become so boring that new people joining the field have no other way to feel involved and valuable than to try things that eventually mean repeating old mistakes, degrading the system, which means they can then "improve" it again... In the long term global view it's actually nothing more than bringing it back to where it was before them, but in their short term individual-scale view they've made a change.The cycle is slow enough for most people not to notice it, over 10-20 years they'll just feel like there has been constant change and "improvement", when in reality it's just gone in a circle.Another example is clothing/fashion, just the same. Architecture also to some point just slower, with periods where people "go wild", then get nostalgic and go back to "traditional", then get bored of it and go wild again...Things started at the bottom, the level climbed steadily and rapidly during the last century or so, and now reached a plateau and just oscillates slightly around it.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 11:51:39 pm
content: Well, at least we can buy used gear FTW! My Hakko 926 still works great, though. Maybe when it dies, I'll get a 936.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 12:40:07 am
content: My last purchase was a Knob soldering iron by ATTEN , solely for that reason of the Op's .

author: whitevamp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 02:03:19 am
content: Quote from: amyk on August 10, 2016, 10:45:57 amthis is why i like my old solder aid by ok industries.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 02:22:38 am
content: Quote from: Gary350z on August 11, 2016, 03:47:24 amWonderful video. I didn't think Hakko would screw up so badly with the UI. Even the Chinese knobless stations have a straightforward pair of up/down buttons that do exactly what you would want, with calibration and other "advanced" features accessed by pressing both of them simultaneously. Why Hakko decided making the user seteach digit of the temperature separatelyis a good idea is beyond me, unless their firmware programmers were too bored and just wanted to fill upthe massive amount of flash space the MCU in the station has...Soldering stations aren't the only things affected by this stupid overcomplex UI trend, here's another piece of heating equipment that far more people use daily:http://ellis.fyi/blog/why-do-most-microwaves-have-such-a-terrible-user-interface/And I did look at the FX-951 manual out of curiosity, it has phrases like "initiates a data entry mode", "end of sequence signal", and "low-temperature alarm tolerance setting mode" sprinkled among more amusing ones like "CAUTION: place the iron in the iron holder when not in use" and "CAUTION: do not set the temperature too high, the soldering iron will become very hot."

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 07:56:44 am
content: Quote from: amyk on August 12, 2016, 02:22:38 amHe got something wrong though:QuoteNah! It's of course some marketing guy who said "We need our microwave oven to do a bazillion super fancy things others don't so we have an edge and sell lots, just make each of them do a different form of random thing, and we'll own the world!!11!ONE!!"And the sad thing is that it works. Yes people in the store will see the tons of fancy features, buy that oven (with a bit of help from the seller who will reassure them they're useful since he makes more on the more expensive model), and promptly proceed to forget about and never use any of those things that would mean reading a manual to know what they do... so theycanactually do random things that may be useless or even bad, no problem as they'll never be used anyway.

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 01:28:34 pm
content: I personally make a point of never buying microwaves with button controls. My current one has rotary encoders and an led numeric display.As for soldering stations, you really shouldn't need to adjust the temperature during work at all if the pid in the thing is any good. Most soldering stations even come with a temperature lock option for factory use - the foreman sets the standard required temperature for the work being done, and that's it.(disclaimer: I do in fact have a soldering station with a knob, but that's just because this was the cheapest jbc available - and "cheapest jbc" still means friggin expensive... and friggin *awesome*...)

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 01:52:54 pm
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on August 12, 2016, 01:28:34 pmThis is my approach. I use the setting "HOT".

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 03:36:05 pm
content: Yew guys and your NOBS! This is what every soldering station needs...

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 06:16:08 pm
content: Just wait, the next revolution in soldering stations is coming: IR remote control.They're already included in many Arduino-clone kits. Someone's bound to add it for differentiation...and more buttons.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 06:58:51 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on August 12, 2016, 07:56:44 amYep, which is why the elegant one-knob microwave in the blog post was a commercial oven. It's actually designed to be efficient to operate, not an appliance store lure.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 08:41:44 pm
content: One reason to lose the knob....You don't have to have Metcal soldering irons calibrated for ISO since the temp regulation is built into the tips and not set by a knob. One less thing to maintain.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 10:09:28 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on August 12, 2016, 08:41:44 pm... and one less temptation for feature creep

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 11:23:25 pm
content: Quote from: metrologist on August 12, 2016, 03:36:05 pmThe WX will load iron specific profiles from USB stick which is about the only sane way to configure it. The older Weller stations can be setup via USB but the profiles are not iron specific.I think an interface is a good alternative but it's still nice to have presets. Also, for me it's only workable if the profiles can be iron specific. Production a single profile might be ok but when swapping hand pieces I don't want to be reconfiguring my station.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 02:24:31 am
content: Got a knob on my Ersa i-Con 1 but really don't use it hardly. The only time I switch temps is when switching from leaded to leadfree solder or vise versa. I do prefer a knob to buttons though for sure.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 02:40:52 am
content: Is the UI on anything important these days? I still don't understand how people find browsing the Internet on their phones to be actually useful. The lack of a real UI makes it completely annoying for me.I use the WES51 which has a dial!I seem to be one of the rare folks who doesn't care for the digital version WESD51 - I like the dial version better.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 02:44:52 am
content: Replaced my old Weller that had a knob with a Pace and three buttons. Personally, I like the Pace.

author: RobertHolcombe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 11:21:49 am
content: Quote from: alank2 on August 13, 2016, 02:40:52 amThe WESD51 does have the same dial, but additionally has the digital temperature display instead of temperature graduation silkscreen on the front panel/dial.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 02:19:58 pm
content: You are right, it was the hakko that had the buttons which took forever to get set.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 07:08:24 pm
content: Quote from: Tandy on August 10, 2016, 07:31:51 pmI've no idea why Antex are so expensive when they're so shit. I prefer Hakko any day.Quote from: EEVblog on August 11, 2016, 08:50:15 amI'd be happy with 5oC increments. I also hate encoders. Even on a digital solder station, a pot can easily be connected to the MCU via an ADC.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 08:32:43 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on August 13, 2016, 07:08:24 pmWhat do you hate about them and is that for all encoders or just certain types?

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 09:34:27 pm
content: Unless special measures are taken, encoders are "endless" and not repeatable between power cycles. So you need to watch the feedback from the display instead of just aiming the knob dot at a point on the scale.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 10:04:11 pm
content: Ah, yes. That is a downside for being able to set a level without looking. A pot with a tactile position indicator on the knob can easily be set by touch.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 12:14:09 am
content: As a Metcal use I suggest to change the petition to 'eliminate the buttons', rather than 'give us knobs'.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 03:12:30 am
content: When i first got the ATTEN i was contemplating a sleep button then that changed to a preset button , then back to the sleep button but as there is no room behind the front cover (the pcb is in the way) i have let it slide to the back-burner ..

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 04:49:47 am
content: Thats it! I'm going to build a soldering station that runs on tubes, relays, and magnetic amplifiers to control the current. (I will too if I get the parts, just because I like being different) And it will most certainly have knobs, lots of knobs, and big clunky switches."We don't need no digitization! Teacher leave our knobs alone!"

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 05:00:16 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on August 15, 2016, 04:49:47 amWhy did not someone make a Tube soldering station? , at night it'd look Cool , not run cool but looking at a rectifier would be nice , then a voltage regulator and Nixie display for temp .A good thought Cyberdragon , the never was a Wall imo .

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 05:36:47 am
content: Just vent the heat from the tubes through a hose to make a hot glue melter thingy. Because why don't soldering stations have these, the smd air gun would just burn the glue.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 08:24:03 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on August 15, 2016, 04:49:47 amWhat's wrong with making it digital, that can have lots of switches too!Manually loading the temperature regulation program into memory at each power up is as sophisticated as it could get! Once loaded you can easily set the temperature straight on the switches, in binary of course!

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 08:44:14 am
content: Quote from: helius on August 13, 2016, 09:34:27 pmNot sure why that would be a negative - Ersa at least uses an encoder with a momentary push switch and I love mine. There's no need to worry about power cycles - the station remembers where it was set when powered off and returns to the same setting when it's powered back on. Aside from that, it auto-sleeps after a selectable time to a selectable temperature, resuming the set soldering temperature again when the iron is lifted from the stand within 2 or 3 seconds. I rarely change temp at all - only when I need to use some lead-free solder. Even for heavy ground plane work the iron doesn't need to have the temp adjusted - Ersa and also JBC I believe are rated 80W continuous and 150W for up to 30 second surges. If you can't already tell, yes I love my soldering station, lol.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 12:53:01 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 11, 2016, 05:06:15 amThe perplexing thing is that until fairly recently, interaction design wasn't widely available as a field of study. It's only recently that there's been a boom in it!The thing is, digital controls are cheaper to make, but most people intuitively consider them to be more high-tech. (That's why, for example, only entry-level washing machines ever use mechanical timers any more, even though the mechanical ones are more expensive and more reliable than the digital controls.) A couple of tactile buttons cost far less than a quality potentiometer, for example. The problem is that most gadgets these days are made in countries who have little-to-no interest in usability, so they just let the engineers do whatever and never, ever engage the services of a usability professional.As for Rossman's video asking about why you need a key to change temp: I guess he's never heard of industrial process control, where you don't want assembly line workers autonomously changing process parameters.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 08:45:17 am
content: Quote from: helius on August 13, 2016, 09:34:27 pmYes, I agree.Quote from: Cyberdragon on August 15, 2016, 04:49:47 amI have no problem with digitisation. I'd like a solder station with a digital display which displays the set and actual temperature in 5oC increments and a potentiometer to adjust the temperature.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 09:42:24 pm
content: Absolute encoders are a possibility. But I think they defeat the KISS principle and they are very expensive, to boot.Re Hakko, I was appalled by the 888D UI. I still use my analog version. And I "fixed" my digital version, somewhat. I still have to look up instructions if I need to adjust it beyond the 5 presets.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/hakko-888d-interface-fixed/msg875006/#msg875006

author: k_sze
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 12:57:45 pm
content: Quote from: julian1 on August 11, 2016, 08:28:23 amWhere do you evenfinda new original Hakko 936?!

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2016, 10:53:30 am
content: Quote from: k_sze on August 24, 2016, 12:57:45 pmProbably NOS.

author: k_sze
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2016, 12:26:36 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on August 25, 2016, 10:53:30 amYes, that's what I thought, too. Butwhere?

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2016, 01:03:45 pm
content: While we're here: monitors. I use my computer in a room with natural light. That is, light that is not constant.On my last monitor I had to go through the menu system to change the brightness (this took many keypresses). I'm very glad that my current one has presets that I can cycle through with asinglebutton. But I'd much prefer a physical control.My first ever monitor (a CRT) had a brightness wheel. No software, no OSD system. I have a 1993-4 era computing magazine with an ad for a CRT monitor that required a Windows utility to change its settings -- and a review about how great it was. Little did they know of the doom this would bring upon monitorkind.My old thinkpad 600, now long gone, had a physical slider under the screen to change the brightness. This was amazing.I prefer not having to control screen brightness through software. It means I can change it when I'm anywhere and doing anything: in the BIOS or whilst the computer is booting, for example, which does not seem that important until you have to do it at FULL BRIGHTNESS IN A PITCH BLACK ROOM orat minimum brightness in broad day. It also means that it's physically impossible for the brightness value to be forgotten by the computer from one session to the next. For similar reasons I love having a physical volume knob to play with.Alas, buttons are what the world wants. Or I should spend more money to get a better monitor (or a room with less thermal resistance and more thermal mass).

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2016, 05:33:42 pm
content: Quote from: Whales on August 25, 2016, 01:03:45 pmButtons are what the world perceives to be "better", "high value", or "high-tech" without understanding when they're appropriate or how best to interact with them. As a result, buttons generate more profit for products that have them and they become prevalent."If I had asked people what they wanted, they would've said faster horses." -- Henry Ford

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2016, 09:14:58 pm
content: This is what marketers have decided that we will perceive as better.Capacitive touch control is next. It requires more software. But once the development is done, it is cheap to mass produce.Encoders are not without their own trouble. I have a radio that goes down in volume smooth as butter. Trying to turn it back up takes a few minutes trying to find exactly the right speed where the encoder debounce routine happens to be right. Then after you succeed and let go just right to not bounce it right back to zero, you can carefully adjust the volume down to where u want it.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2016, 03:22:13 am
content: Maybe clean the encoder? DeOxit shines for this. How old is the radio BTW? I had an old Kenwood that did similar after 20 years. Cleaning fixed it right up.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2016, 05:02:09 am
content: When I switched to Metcal I thought I was going to miss the temperature setting. It works like a charm with no temp setting whatsoever.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2016, 07:48:40 am
content: Quote from: zapta on August 14, 2016, 12:14:09 amAgree! Just turn it on and get soldering.

author: k_sze
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2016, 11:32:08 am
content: I'm not sure if Hakko or Weller read this forum, or even find this thread.I think we need to be more pro-active.How about organizing a cross-forum effort? I know eevblog isn't the only electronics forum on the web, you guys must know other popular ones.Here is what I propose:Find out who has the last word about design decisions at each of these companies;Find out how to contact them - phone, snail-mail, e-mail, fax, you name it;Get the word out at other forums, maybe make a video if you have your own YouTube channel;Organize across forums and start sending them our messages, individually, in concert; tell them whichever company brings back the knob will win back our heart (and business). Link them to the multitude of complaints about the knobless interfaces - e.g. this thread, among others, and that YouTube video by Louis Rossmann (https://youtu.be/WgoGhnlJHas?list=PLkVbIsAWN2lvK9wLg2pwcXJLut_-_P9G4&t=2618)What do you guys say?

author: aronake
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 08:54:46 am
content: I just sent below mail to Weller. Lets see what they say---------------Dear Weller,I am here representing the eevblog forum, which is one of the leading electronics engineering and design forums on Internet.One topic we have been discussing is the user interface on soldering stations and how we generally find them very unpleasant to work with. You can read the thread here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/a-petition-to-bring-us-back-the-knob!-a-complaint-to-modern-soldering-stations/The thread now have 2865 views.In my case, I just bought a WX2 with a couple of different irons recently. Its a wonderful solder station and nice piece of engineering in true German fashion. It ticks all the boxes, save for one area, the user interface! Me, and many other users find this "turn around touch pad" very inconvenient, slow and unprecise to work with.We in the forum would want to know more about how and why this user interface was chosen. It looks nice and I could think the marketing department had a say, but after all we want something which is good to work with.Could you provide some insight in this matter?In all fairness its not only you who fail when it comes to user interfaces, quite some of the other major manufacturer have went along the same route.I dont have answers on how a good user interface should be, but trust you have experts to look into this matter. I would also be happy to provide views and feedback on what ideas you may have.Yours,Aron--------------

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 09:00:15 am
content: Soo...http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WwOrUmIqcpc/URm3tRhvk4I/AAAAAAAAAyU/CoML0IwUkF0/s1600/Photo+Feb+11,+10+31+10+PM.jpgIs that the new forum-approved soldering iron with all of it's knobby goodness... or an old mixer... can't tell....

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 10:19:57 am
content: That looks like a soldering station to you?

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 10:22:53 pm
content: Quote from: helius on September 02, 2016, 10:19:57 amIf 1 knob = good.... many knobs = better... right???

author: The_Tim
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 14, 2016, 07:09:52 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on August 12, 2016, 02:22:38 amJust wanted to say I'm pleased that my old microwave post is still making the rounds. Also obviously I agree 100% about knobs. My soldering iron is the Weller WESD51 and I feel like the rotary knob is paired nicely with the digital display.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 16, 2016, 11:45:05 am
content: I have a Hakko FX951, great iron but AWFUL interface! how they managed to put 4 buttons on it and make it the most user unfriendly is beyond me,simple up and down buttons for temp would suffice.I also have a Weller WSD80, that works absolutely fine, up and down to change temp, great iron, use this mainly for SMD.I FOOLISHLY gave away a WESD51, wish I had kept it!