Are You Assembling Small-Volume Boards Yourself? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: meshtron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2023, 03:33:16 pm
content: I'm about 4-6 months and 2 more rounds of prototypes away from selling my first electronic consumer-facing product. It's relatively small and simple (35mmx70mm board, 2-layer, ~20SMD parts all on one side, 2 QFN, 22 through-hole pins). New to electronics in general, this is my first time designing a PCB and my first time selling an electronic product although I have lots of experience selling into my market as an entrepreneur.For a bunch of reasons based on prior experience and on credibility with customers, I would love to find a way to assemble, test, clean, and package these myself. I have a 3-car garage available (plus CO2 and galvo fiber CNC lasers for whatever that's worth), and can invest ~5-7k in equipment to do them myself. I expect the volume requirements to start relatively slow - on the order of 50 boards per month. Over a couple years I hope to work that up to more like 200 boards/month. Somewhere between 200 and 400 boards/month I'd reach another inflection point where we could re-examine how we're doing everything.I have lots of manufacturing experience, in huge businesses and tiny ones. I know how to fiddle with machines to keep them happy and reliable. I know how to plan component needs, source things, and do pretty rigid QC (though I need to learn how to flash/functional test boards still).I feel like I have a basic understanding of how this could all work, but most of the time the "doing" of something new is bumpier than the "planning," so I hoped this crowd could steer me either totally away from this idea OR towards more realistic assumptions.Here's how I think it could work:- Buy panelized boards from US board shop (I think I could do 4x7 panels so 28 boards/panel) with solder mask stencil(s)- Laser cut/build myself a solder mask station to help ensure consistent mask vs board placement and low risk of slipping- Use something like a Pandaplace A1 to PnP all the SMD stuff. At 500 pph (claims it can run faster, but who knows) little over 1 hour processing time for a 28-board panel- Desktop reflow oven (but not a T962) to reflow one panel at a time ~12 minutes cycle time- Laser cut jigs for all through-hole parts so I could place parts, install jig on top, flip over and have everything in place to hand-solder- Flux-clean boards (still not sure best way to do this - ultrasonic with flux-cleaning additive or?) - assume 1H processing time/panel- Warm air dry and/or alcohol dip/dry boards post-cleaning - assume 15 minutes/panel- Some sort of pogo-pin flash/test bench (I'd need to do this even if I wasn't making the boards - it's tricky but my parts aren't all that complex either)- Final inspect, serial number (sticker), packageCritical path is probably pick-and-place, but that still lets me, on a relatively chill Saturday, get something like 100 boards assembled. If I set up my flash/test station wisely, that should take well under 1 minute/board (and they will likely need to be flashed close to time of shipment since one hardware board can run with multiple firmware versions for different end-uses). I would like to avoid - as much as possible - brush-scrubbing every board to clean it. That's just one of those things that will get "rushed' sometimes and, even though users won't typically be looking at the board, I don't want grungy-looking ones to exist.Sorry for the long post, it's basically been in the last week where I realized people ARE assembling PCBs at home and there are better options than tweezers and a microscope!

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2023, 11:10:32 pm
content: Any reason you don't want to get it assembled by JLC/PCBway?

author: meshtron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 12:33:14 am
content: Yeah, several reasons which seem compelling to me but - maybe they are and maybe not. PCBWay did assemble my prototypes and will do the next couple rounds also - they have been great so far, so nothing against them. And, I understand that in volume, on a net cost basis (if I valued my own time more than zero), it's likely MORE expensive to do them myself... But1) I like to be able to - in a pinch - do everything needed to bring my product to life. Understanding all the steps helps me be a better designer and frees me from unforeseen hiccups in supply chain. I never have to be the middleman between a suppliers issue and my customer (these are some old lessons hard-learned and stubbornly persistent)2) Being able to label and market my parts as "Made in USA" - this won't matter to all my customers, but it will matter to many of them3) Flexibility in design. I may end up trading out the most expensive IC on my board (~40% of total component cost) with a less expensive version when those become available (supply-chain issues)4) Quicker prototyping/iteration on future stuff. Even if I get boards made, being able to test, tune, tweak and iterate quickly is important to our product roadmap5) Better control over economies of scale: I could by 1000 of my expensive chip, shaving 30% per chip off that cost, without having to tie up cash for 1000 whole, assembled boardsAgain - all these are arguable points, but my tendency is and has been the more I/we can do ourselves, the better handle we have on how things progress.

author: DLE
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 01:00:10 am
content: There are a lot of posts in the manufacturing channel that talk about the pros/cons of a lot of equipment. Pasting is pretty easy at your volume unless you have very fine pitch. The PNP can be a time suck, the term Diva gets thrown around a lot on the desktop machines. I had a CHMT36VA that is 100% a diva but once you got it it's green M&Ms and sparkling water it would just chunk out boards (0603 was the smallest I ever ran on it). I went through the same thing years ago and the 36VA was a huge time saver, but again it's a diva with not a lot of support except for the sparkfun stuff. I ran a small toaster oven (as small as possible to minimize heating volume for quick ramp) for a lot of boards (>1k) without an issue. I'd start there unless you have some weird requirements or a huge thermal mass.It's all doable and it really depends on you. If you like to fiddle as you said, work on equipment and find enjoyment in this stuff its not a bad way to make some money. But if time is at a premium for you or these boards are all you are ever going to do, work with a local CM, a lot will allow you to supply parts (within their specs). So you're just paying for machine time.Just my two cents, worth less than that, but there it is.

author: dobsonr741
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 01:17:13 am
content: Do you want to work WITH manufacturing and sell your product or do you want to work ON manufacturing? Fine either way, just for the sake of clarity.Also, what is your margin on a single piece of product?

author: meshtron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 01:36:24 am
content: Thanks for the thoughts, that's really helpful! I have a good day job, so I don't have a ton of time, but I have enough good help to accomplish whatever I need if time becomes an issue; filed under "good problems to have." This venture is a for-profit deal (supplementing the design/engineering side work I already do), but I think it can grow into a viable standalone business pretty quickly. And I'm standardizing on nothing smaller than 0603 for the next round(s) of boards; I didn't appreciate just how small 0402 was until I got my prototypes!I do love to tinker, and I love to understand the technical parts of everything I do and design, it's made me a pretty successful designer over the years. Before I designed my first CNC suspension parts, I spent a year volunteering at the local community college to get access to the machine shop so I could learn CNC myself (and made a good friend of the amazing instructor there). Even that meager experience made me a much better designer and my machine shop guy is a lifetime buddy.I love the diva term - that rings so true. I helped a friend refurb an old (80s?) Mitsubishi 6kW laser and that thing - once we got it up and running again - was still a diva. It even made all kinds of great sounds so you learned to listen for the bad moans vs the good ones to know what kind of day you were in for!EDIT TO ADD: This is the first, simplest product in what will be a pretty long-line. So, LOTS of development in the immediate future.

author: meshtron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 01:53:41 am
content: QuoteI am asking about working ON manufacturing (assembly) to start with while also selling my product. There are 3 outcomes that follow from that:1) We sell almost nothing and all this turns out to be just amazing, relatively affordable education2) We sell some stuff, and over the years upgrade our little assembly setup to be better/faster/cheaper3) We sell lots of stuff and decide to just keep the assembly setup we have but outsource volume production to someone better equippedAll of those are good options to me!QuoteThe truth is I don't know, because I'm not certain yet what retail price the market will bear: psuedo-competing products range from $70 to $700. That said, conservatively, in quantities of 100 at a time, paying for assembly, and selling through distributors: something like 45% GM. I think volume alone gets us closer to 55%, and doing assembly ourselves could get us to over 60%.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 07:11:24 am
content: The US in particular seems to be obsessed with washing PCBs, the rest of us use no-clean fluxes and leave it there, unless there's a reason to remove it such as conformal coating compatibility or a really sensitive semiconductor. Manual soldering fluxes can be removed with a brush.You don't need custom jigs to make THT soldering easier, one of these is universalhttps://www.ideal-tek.com/scheda.php?m=search&f=5&c=circuit%20board%20holders&l=3&idp=3339.Custom rigs or plates come in when you have some kind of cut and clinch machine

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 09:04:11 am
content: I'm not sure where you are located, but there are quite a few local PCB assembly shops around LA at least. I would get some quotes before you count domestic professional assembly out.I've been doing this stuff for a while, and I enjoy making my own prototypes and all that stuff. But the absolute last thing I want to do is be responsible for volume production boards. That is a nightmare I gladly pay someone else to handle. There is a reason that business exists. If you get to the point where you run an efficient and cost effective PCB assembly line with consistently high quality output, then you might as well scrap the product design stuff and just run a PCB assembly business.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 09:11:38 am
content: I'm in both boats. For small volume up to 500 units, I assembled them on my own with my small assembly line. Beyond that quantity or if the assembly requires potting, boxing, anything chemical, I will ask a PCBA factory in SZ to handle. This I think is the best balance solution for my small business. For your information, I made my own products and also custom design. This approach allows my custom design customer to scale from small quantities to larger quantities over time.

author: deepfryed
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 09:18:44 am
content: You may want to lookup unexpected maker on YouTube, he's got a fair few videos going back years on his journey to assembling the boards he designs. There's lots of hair pulling, challenges and trial & error involved, and it may not be cheap. Good luck!

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 01:01:07 pm
content: I built my own dual head machine and use that one for prototyping and manufacturing small and mid size batches.The machine is dual head at the moment, but intended to become an octohead machine very soon.I prefer to have everything under control, also spares for my machine are very cheap.

author: meshtron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 03:46:03 pm
content: Holy crap - really good stuff! Thanks for the suggestion, hadn't heard of him before. RIP the rest of my productive work day!

author: meshtron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 03:57:03 pm
content: Quote from: SMTechGuilty! I am pretty nitpicky in general, but I'm a good prototype of my target demographic too. Since my customers will have to interact with the board (outside of the housing, for configuration), it's important to me that all of it looks perfect. Call it a "perceived quality" thing, but my past experience (with other products) has led me to believe as long as it's not terribly expensive, building in quality where nobody sees it only creates good surprises.Quote from: SMTechThanks for the info on the THT stand - that is pretty simple! I was (and probably am) overthinking it.Quote from: SmokeyThere are actually a number of local shops, but looks like they're a mix of "do it here" and "be your outsource partner." I will definitely tour around and chat with them once I get past prototyping.Quote from: 48X24X48XAwesome - this is exactly what I had in mind! The more I dig into how to do this, the more I think I really can't go wrong spending a few grand on tools and even if I'm on the struggle bus for months, I will learn a ton more. Whether I end up building them all or subbing it out, that knowledge will be super helpful.Quote from: MRHoly crap that's some next-level stuff! I think tinkering on a kit/auction-house production system is probably my path, but I admire your grit!

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 04:29:14 pm
content: I sell hundreds of boards a year.I do it all myself.I tend to shy away from SMD due to small size although I do use some SMD motor drivers and regulators which aren't fine pitch.Mostly I consider my time is free and it part fills my time in semi retirement.This way if I get a return its easy to fix and no tiny SMD IC's to replace.I can also quickly change software if a problem occurs without receiving systems in the pipeline with buggy software.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 06:41:43 pm
content: Quote from: meshtron on September 08, 2023, 12:33:14 amWell just outsource the boards and lie that they are made in USA - people who are in the know will not believe you anyway because they know it's extremely likely that none of subcomponents you're using are made in US, andidiotsthose who believe it now, will believe it in any case because they don't know any better. Or just do what everyone else does - post crap like "Designed in US" and call it a day. At least it would be less of a lie.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 06:49:13 pm
content: Now, as for the actual topic - I do low volume high cost PCB assembly at home as well using a high-quality vacuum pickup tool, a stereo microscope, a manual framed stencil printer and a reflow oven. My typical PCB contains somewhere around 300-500 parts, most of which are 0402s, of which about a half of them is on the bottom side. Typically I assemble 3-5 boards at a time because otherwise overhead of preparing parts for placement is very large (and I avoid having more than one kind of a part in my assembly area at a time to make sure I place the right part - because most parts I works with have no markings whatsoever). Some of components I use are quite expensive (multiple $100's) with the BOM cost well north of a grand per PCB, so it's worth it for me, but in the long run I also plan to acquire some sort of p-n-p machine (I've been looking at YY1 and it looks pretty good for my needs).

author: meshtron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 10:42:44 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on September 08, 2023, 06:41:43 pmI suspect you're just being snarky here, but to be clear - there are (roughly consistent) international standards on what it takes to label something as "Made In..." anywhere. Standard language is along the lines of "the last substantial transformation..." Even though most people aren't aware of the specifics, it matters to me, and keeping my reputation and integrity impeccable has allowed me access to customers that many companies struggle to connect with. That, in turn, allows me the freedom to be choosy about customers when it matters as well.Anyway, anyone who thinks "Made in USA" means every part was sourced here isn't paying enough attention to be a concern. But my goal isn't to just say it, it's to mean it and be able to enthusiastically explain - typically over good Scotch - exactly what we do, how we do it, and why we chose to do it this way.Quote from: asmiMan, that machine seems like it would do everything I could want and then some! Bit out of my "dip my toes in" price range, but would be an obvious candidate for an upgrade if we get some traction. I just spent an hour or so watching a guy on YouTUBE calibrate his and run it through its paces - seems like an amazing piece of kit! He was placing 0201s consistently and accurately even though he had too big of a nozzle on! They have a nice conveyor-type reflow oven too that looks awesome too.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 10:47:13 pm
content: Quote from: meshtron on September 08, 2023, 12:33:14 amUsually for a simple proto you'd assemble it yourself as there is a lot of hacking/part substitution/experimenting/etc involved.If they can already build the board and haven't given you any complaints, while understanding the process is interesting and can be fun, I don't see how it matters. You won't learn anything that useful unless you want to turn into a contract assembler. Spending the time/money for hobby purposes, sure go for it.IMO very few consumers care if a board inside the product is made in USA or China, as asmi seems to be hinting at. If the board is going into a product that you assemble, then you can still call it Assembled in USA or Made in USA with limitations:https://www.themadeinamericamovement.com/american-made/difference-between-assembled-made-in-usa/

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 11:40:02 pm
content: Quote from: meshtron on September 08, 2023, 10:42:44 pmIt has been proven time and time again that people are hypocritical when it comes to it. They love to boast and moan about "buying local" and "supporting domestic manufacturers", but when the time comes to put their money where their mouth is they are nowhere to be found, as they would rather buy cheaper stuff from overseas.Quote from: meshtron on September 08, 2023, 10:42:44 pmNone of those explanations will work when they open your device and see "Made in <somewhere in the East>" all over your components. Especially to the types which do this over a good Scotch.The point I'm making is that very few people really care about this - not just saying that they care, but actually DO what they say, and the risk of having an egg on your face over foreign-made components from one of those who really does care, is not worth it in my opinion. I can tell that none of my customers ever cared, as they were businesses and the only language they speak and understand is that of a money.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 11:44:35 pm
content: Quote from: meshtron on September 08, 2023, 10:42:44 pmIt does have some growing pains and oddities according to some folks, and it totally isn't suitable for mid to high-volume production, but for cases like mine when I have a hundred of the same part on a board and I could really use some automation to cover at least partial assembly (and then place remaining parts by hand) it seems like a good option.

author: meshtron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 12:05:12 am
content: Quote from: asmiIn general, I absolutely agree. My first business - in relatively the same space as this product line will go to - has nearly driven "cheap" overseas alternatives out of the market because the customers I'm dealing with both have the disposable income to buy based on believing in the story AND can recognize the little details about quality, presentation, etc.Now, whether I can parlay that same strategy and experience into a lower-cost, less-blingy product is yet to be seen, but it's 100% where I'm going to start until I prove to myself it's not workable (or it is!!)

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 12:38:42 am
content: Doing it yourself will almost always I suspect cost more and be lower quality. Larger assembly places will have good printers, SPI, AOI, proper parts storage, part validation workflows, good oven profiles, and nice machines/feeders that can spice and not waste parts. We've got an in house line and it'll never pay itself off compared to outsourcing. Labour, power and machines here are too expensive. However I do find them a bit fun to watch.

author: dkonigs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 03:15:45 am
content: Quote from: SMTech on September 08, 2023, 07:11:24 amI got one of those because I found the concept very tempting. The problem is that it turned out to be useless in practice. Okay, it might be okay for the parts I'm more likely to do as SMD anyways, but it didn't work so well for the parts that actually needed to be thru-hole. (buttons, relays, connectors, some LEDs, etc)Most of my thru-hole parts really do need to be held flush against the PCB, and applying enough pressure to do it would just warp the PCB and they'd end up all wonky. Eventually, I decided I was better off just 3D printing a collection of custom jigs to hold my various parts in place. Laser cut might be even better, but needing different heights for different parts might cause problems with that approach.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 06:29:53 am
content: Quote from: loki42 on September 09, 2023, 12:38:42 amit depends you have to go through some learning curve. If you have a good machine it won't let you run into a knife because the software will guide you properly through the process.I built my own machine and it paid off relatively quick (I had lots of negative experience with our Mechatronika MX80, lots of issues with faulty feeders, after a complete service of the Manufacturer (machine + feeders) even more severe issues came up and the original software is stripped down to an absolute minimum giving the operator a lot headache in case something's wrong with the machine, to top that the Manufacturer descent after complaining about their issues;so I rewrote the software for that machine initially - we had demand for a second machine at another location so we built it ourselves and ported the software to that new machine - and added multihead support, the machine is now a little bit faster than the MX80 at a lower gantry speed due to multihead support, with more powerful motors I could easily double/triple the speed). The cost of the machine - cheap, we also machined the feeders ourself, in total they were more expensive than the machine itself.Most importantly - I have nothing to complain about anymore since any issues that come up can be resolved permanently and quickly by us. For example a new delicate component dropped by the optical recognition - no problem advance the optical recognition algorithms.Having no machine would feel stressful for me, I can do prototypes instantly. In case it's very urgent I can even make the PCB on our CNC mill.

author: meshtron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 03:34:57 pm
content: I designed and built my dad this model from laser-cut plywood years back - you can generate some pretty decent 3D shapes with laser cutting with a bit of fiddling. Would need to figure out how to keep it flat long-term, but I think it would be a viable path.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2023, 12:14:13 am
content: I am on my 2nd P&P machine, now. I got my first one in 2007, having never even SEEN one before, and had it making the first boards in a week. I use a GE toaster oven with a thermocouple temp controller that can do ramp and soak profiles. I poke the thermocouple into a hole in the board so it senses actual board temperature.Both of my P&P machines were real production models that I got after they became pretty obsolete. The first one came off a factiry floor when they upgraded. The 2nd one came from an auction, and needed a lot of work to get it going, but it is WAY more accurate than the first one I had.I made a frame with adjustable edges so that the board is supported and fixed in position, and then tape unframed stencils to the edge, so the tape acts as a hinge. This allows the stencil to be aligned with the board. I use Loctite GC10 paste, which has worked WAY better than many other brands.I have done over 2000 boards so far. Most of my boards are big enough that I don't do panels, but a few have been so small that panels make sense.Jon

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2023, 12:38:12 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on September 08, 2023, 09:04:11 amAgreed. Getting the quality up to a high enough level is difficult enough. I've seen my fair share of problems with hand-assembled and/or poorly soldered boards. The worst are the ones that fail after a while giving customers all kinds of grief.