Looking for Multimeter/Oscilloscope combination - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: kultakala
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2017, 09:28:27 am
content: Hi,I am interested in technical stuff in general and i really like electronics equipment of all kinds.Aside from smartphones and computers i have a lot of measurement stuff like laser distance meter, geiger counter, Thermal imaging Cam, Sound meter, RF scanner, EMF scanner, a lot of chargers for all that, some vintage desktop and handheld calculators, GPS units and so on.25 years ago i worked with oscilloscopes, bit error counters and stuff like that in a test lab but since then i had nothing much to do with all that.Beside fixing electrical housing stuff i am into building rc models with different electronic control boards.To cut a long story short... my old multimeter is not the best any more and i want to get something new.While looking for a new DMM i found it a good idea to have a simple oscilloscope function which led me to the CEM DT-9989.So far i failed to get a flawless one... ->https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/bad-luck-with-my-new-multimeter-(cem-dt-9989)/...so i thought to think it over again.There are some multimeters i consider and which would be more than doing it for my needs like the Brymen 869.But there are others which are more fancy and have a higher gadget factor like the Keysight 1273a.And i like stylish gadgetsI cant judge what i would need in an oscilloscope. I would use it just occasionally for checking some PWM signals or motor outputs in rc model electronics.And maybe somewhere else but maybe it would be kind of waste of money.One from the bottom end would be fine of course, no more than 100 MHz, but less would do it probably too.If i would buy an oscilloscope right now i probably would go for a siglent sds1202x which would be the same price as the cem dt-9989.Add on would be a new DMM.And to practice a little bit with measuments in general it would be good to have a function generator too i guess.But what about a handheld oscilloscope like the siglent sds800 series, could that be an alternative ?The oscilloscope functions seems to be okay for me but the DMM specifications are not the best (accuracy about +/- 1% in general).The reason i am tending to a handheld device is mainly that i dont have a workbench or so... if i do something its on my kitchen table and this needs to be cleared up after that.So i would prefer to have it as small as possible but with the proper performance.What would be a good combo of DMM, DSO (and Function Gen) ? In one, two or 3 devices ?My budget would be about 1000 euros... maybe more if i am thrilled.I am not shure if you really get what i mean, but english is not my native languageThanks!Regards,Olaf

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2017, 09:37:30 am
content: It sounds like you are after an eierlegende Wollmilchsau!

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 16, 2017, 09:39:52 am
content: Hallo Olaf,the SDS1102X+ (incl. function gen) is right now on sale at Batronix. ->http://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Siglent-SDS1102X+.htmlAnd Welectron is selling the Brymen BM869s ->https://www.welectron.com/Brymen-BM869s-MultimeterBoth together are still in your budget and nice gadgets for your kitchen table.Cheershammy

author: kultakala
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2017, 11:18:53 am
content: Quote from: hammy on January 16, 2017, 09:39:52 amThe SDS1102X+ would be fine, but... maybe better to invest even a few more bucks and get the SDS1102X plus the SDG1032X ?I would have square wave up to 30 Mhz instead of 10, modulation functions and probably some more advantages.It would consume more space on my table, but.... Arghh... wish i would have a lab

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 16, 2017, 12:05:51 pm
content: Quote from: kultakala on January 16, 2017, 11:18:53 amIf you already hava a scenario in mind, yes. If not, you just spent money for a cool looking gadget. Based on your description you're probably fine with 10Mhz.However, at some point in the future youmaybehave a real need for a function gen, and at this time youmaybewant more than "just" 30 Mhz.If space is the limiting factor, wait with this funcgen until you got your own workbench.BTW you had a look for these Micsig Tablet Oscilloscopes?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2017, 01:24:27 pm
content: Quote from: kultakala on January 16, 2017, 09:28:27 amA good multimeter will do that PWM measurement for you.You could get a luxury multimeter like the Fluke 87V and worry about the 'scope later.For 1000 Euros you could get an oscilloscope as well. I wouldn't spend a lot on the 'scope though if you don't have an immediate use for it. Get something cheap to start with so you can see find out what it's all about.

author: kultakala
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2017, 03:01:59 pm
content: Quote from: hammy on January 16, 2017, 12:05:51 pmI have nothing special in mind, just thought about future use i might have... right now it would be for playing around and understanding all that stuff.So hook up the function gen to the oscilloscope and play.Micsig, i noticed them... but the tablet oscilloscopes are not what i am looking for.Some keys are needed and they dont have a dmm. Maybe one of the Handhelds like MS210t... but that would be alone 800 euros.Quote from: Fungus on January 16, 2017, 01:24:27 pmYou mean the frequency ? But i would like to have a look at it, graphicallyHave to think about it...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2017, 03:28:12 pm
content: Quote from: kultakala on January 16, 2017, 03:01:59 pmFrequency and pulse width duty cycle as a percentage. A servo control pulse would vary from 10% to 20% (if it's a standard 20ms time between pulses).I guess it's not very pretty to look at though. If you want to look at it graphically you'll need a 'scope.Quote from: kultakala on January 16, 2017, 03:01:59 pmYes, the handhelds are much more expensive. Anything cute will cost more.Quote from: kultakala on January 16, 2017, 03:01:59 pmThe R&S1202 is averynice little oscilloscope that has a built in 'educational' signal generator for learning to use it. It's not brilliant as a general purpose signal generator because it only goes up to 50kHz but it does some special signals for learning that a function generator doesn't. It also has an awful lot of on screen help and graphics for beginners.https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/hmo1202-productstartpage_63493-142720.html

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2017, 05:41:54 pm
content: I bought a few old Fluke 97 scopemeters at a very reasonable price. If you really need the small footprint, you may be able to find a newer used one in your area.

author: kultakala
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 09:59:18 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 16, 2017, 03:28:12 pmI could not find a good comparison between handheld and bench oscilloscope or a good review.But i guess a bench oscilloscope would be better in any case...Quote from: Fungus on January 16, 2017, 03:28:12 pmAlso quite nice but little bit on the more pricey side. At least 1000 Euro for a 50 MHz model.So i would stick to the Siglent

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 10:17:25 am
content: Quote from: kultakala on January 17, 2017, 09:59:18 amI've got a SHS810 and I've used it some. It's an OK basic instrument, nothing flash at all but functional.If you do get one make sure you get the soft carry case as an extra. Custom made it is and the unit and accessories fit like a hand in a glove. As a portable it offers some isolation which is good for scope newbies but only for one channel at a time.Portability is its greatest feature and TBH most other entry level scopes offer more features and ease of use.Despite your need for portability vs $ spent you'd be better served with a small bench DSO like a SDS1102CML+ and Daves EEVblog DMM, the rebranded Bryman.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 10:18:16 am
content: Quote from: kultakala on January 17, 2017, 09:59:18 amOh, I messed up. I meant the R&S HMO1002 (as shown in the video) not the HMO1202. The HMO1002 is about 790 Euro. That leaves 200 Euros for the multimeter.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 11:22:01 am
content: The Hameg scopes are very much overpriced for what they offer besides the Hameg badge. Also all-in-one instruments never really shine. For example the function generator in a scope is usually difficult to operate and the output amplitude is often limited. If it all needs to sit on a kitchen table then why not make/buy a small cabinet which can hold seperate instruments? Then you could buy a decent DMM, function generator and scope and move it quickly if necessary. Also each instrument can be replaced (upgraded) individually.

author: kultakala
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 01:06:30 pm
content: After looking again on all kind of multimeters and the excel sheet overview i really tend to try another CEM multimeter.I really liked the display and handling of the DT-9989, so maybe i will get the DT-9987 without oscilloscope and get a Siglent SDS1102X.So i will stay under 800 Euros and next month i can get a function generator if i like.I would really like to have a TFT or OLED display for the better visibility. Run time on batteries is not important... and then only Extech GX900, Keysight U1273A, Uni-T UT171C and Voltcraft VC890 would be left... all others are too expensive and from the specs the CEM seems to be very good.I know, the quality issues, but... mayb i try againFor the handheld oscilloscopes... i am not shure, but i think its too much of a compromise.And i need a portable multimeter but not a portable oscilloscope. And the modern bench ones are not that big, so...But you would agree that the Siglent SDS1102X has a good value for money ?I like it more from the looks and what i read than the Rigol ones.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 02:16:23 pm
content: Personally I'd buy neither Rigol or Siglent oscilloscopes. They are too close to the bottom of the barrel (bugs, slow, useless features due to half assed implementation). I'm quite possitively surprised by what GW Instek offers in their GDS-1000A and GDS-2000E series. On paper they may look more expensive compared to Siglent and Rigol but they offer a much more mature product so IMHO well worth spending the extra money.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 04:20:56 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 17, 2017, 11:22:01 amOn paper, sure, but they offer a lot of niceness and usability, ie. Stuff that doesn't appear in feature comparison lists.They're also very well built and silent and you get the sig-gen (yeah, it's basic but the OP wanted the sig-gen for learning and that 's what the R&S sig-gen is aimed at).Quote from: nctnico on January 17, 2017, 02:16:23 pmUmmm... the exact same "more expensive but worth it" argument also applies to R&S. Maybe more so.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 06:18:25 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 17, 2017, 04:20:56 pmNo because the HMO1000 series is the lesser choice when it comes to important features like 4 channels, memory depth, FFT length and display size compared to the GW Instek GDS-1000A and GDS-2000E series. I'm also very sure the HMO1000 series won't last long in a mechanical torture test (connecting/disconnecting plugs and vibration) due to it's poor (cheap) mechanical design.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 06:48:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 17, 2017, 06:18:25 pmThat's just your opinion, and Dave clearly disagrees with you in his HMO1002 teardown video where he says the HMO design and build quality is second to none....unlike the Instek, which he rates below Rigols:

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 07:10:36 pm
content: Quote from: kultakala on January 17, 2017, 01:06:30 pmQuoteThey're currently Siglent's best selling DSO, yes fine choice.Where I am there's a promo on these ATM but the EU site doesn't show it.I asked the factory to update the websites only yesterday so hopefully they will soon.Best you inquire to check if it's still running where you are.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 07:16:39 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 17, 2017, 06:48:30 pmI can spot the (potential) problems right away. FYI: I design electronics for a living for close to 20 years already and Dave shoots videos.... It is obvious the Hameg badge got stuck in Dave's eye.

author: kultakala
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 07:22:53 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 17, 2017, 02:16:23 pmIf its just about spending money to get more bells and whistles i could go for a Keysight Z-SeriesBut there is a limitation of money and it would be more for playing around than serious work, so i guess the Siglent would do it for me.Some of the features of the R&S scopes are nice, even for a layman like me but 1K Euros is too much.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 07:26:08 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 17, 2017, 07:16:39 pmYep, many of Daves vids are out of date now too as there have been many changes to all brands and models with updated firmware.

author: kultakala
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 07:29:53 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on January 17, 2017, 07:10:36 pmBoth main distributors in germany and the netherlands show a 15% discount and free decode license for the SDS1000X at the moment.Is that what you meant ?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 07:35:00 pm
content: Quote from: kultakala on January 17, 2017, 07:29:53 pmYep.

author: Welectron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 04:13:10 pm
content: This is Marco from Welectron, I hope it is okay to reply here.Regarding Olaf's initial question, a Siglent SDS1102X+ (including an integrated signal generator) and a Brymen BM869s indeed make a very nice combo. Currently, there is a 15% discount and a free decoding license offered by Siglent as already mentioned, so you could get this combination for well under 1000 EUR.I would not opt for a portable oscilloscope as an all-in-one solution, as you can neither compare the integrated DMM functions with a dedicated top-of-the line DMM like the BM869s nor you have the performance and extensibility of an oscilloscope like the SDS1000X+ series. Modern benchtop DSOs are very portable as long as you have a mains power socket at hand, so this should not be a concern.Speaking of a good multimeter, the BM869s has a very good price-performance ratio. We also sell the Keysight 1273A, but I doubt you want to spend double the money. The BM869s has higher resolution, accuracy and safety rating, but misses a data logging feature (which can also be done by a connected computer via the USB interface).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 04:50:50 pm
content: If you want to use a DMM on mains or other potential lethal voltages I'd get a DMM from an A-brand like Keysight or Fluke. You know the safety ratings will be met and you (or the ones you leave behind) can sue a company which has money in their pockets if something goes wrong.

author: Welectron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 05:12:48 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 20, 2017, 04:50:50 pmBrymen DMMs are UL listed, so safety ratings are independently verified. See on UL websitehere.

author: nugglix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 05:18:16 pm
content: Quote from: Welectron on January 20, 2017, 05:12:48 pmDon't fall for the local troll.And why didn't you join here 2 weeks ago... *before* I ordered my DMM?Does the eevblog discount stack w/ the one for bank transfer in advance you offer?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 05:25:54 pm
content: Quote from: nugglix on January 20, 2017, 05:18:16 pmSometimes me thinks it's coming from a hole in his head.Just ask member Joe Smith which model DMM he would prefer to use to survive a transient....hint, not the Fluke 87V flagship model.

author: Welectron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 05:26:44 pm
content: Quote from: nugglix on January 20, 2017, 05:18:16 pmYes, at the moment it does

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 05:37:45 pm
content: Quote from: Welectron on January 20, 2017, 05:12:48 pmThat still doesn't solve the part where you can sue a company in case something goes wrong.

author: nugglix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 05:39:44 pm
content: Quote from: Welectron on January 20, 2017, 05:26:44 pmAhh.... wrong answer...Thanks anyway!Must... resist... urge... to.. buy... more.. gear...

author: nugglix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 05:42:02 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on January 20, 2017, 05:25:54 pmHard to believe that there is only one person behind that account.To produce this amount of crap Putin had to hire an army of trolls.

author: kultakala
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2017, 12:04:15 am
content: The Siglent SDS1102X will be the one i get... maybe next month.But at first i got that what i needed most, a new multimeter.And guess what, its the CEM DT-9989.I gave it a third try and this time i got a perfectly working device with nothing to complain about.First thing was to test it on my current r/c project... the oscilloscope function lacks a lot of functions and will not compensate for a "real" oscilloscope, but at least i could measure that the motor outputs work at 1,4 KHz