Should OP have an obligation to keep a thread index???........ - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 02:37:50 am
content: The question is:If you start a thread knowing it will get hundreds of pages of posts with quickly evolving content and specific high value posts with important procedures that people are obviously coming to the thread to get but are burried many pages deep.........should you have an obligation to keep an index of important posts in the first post?I'm thinking here of the "Hacking the xxxx" type threads.Some do an good job at this:New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/Others, not so good:Hacking the Rigol MSO5000 series oscilloscopes:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/[In case anyone cares, the instructions for this thread are here 2167 posts in:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg3869852/#msg3869852]This results in post after post of "where are the instructions?", and then eventually someone gets tired of that and makes a whole new post with the instructions as the OP, fragmenting the discussion.It would be great if there could be something like a moderator editable index for posts like this if the OP abandons it or just doesn't do it themselves.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 05:11:28 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on October 26, 2022, 02:37:50 amIt is this lazy behavior of the posters of these "where are the instructions?" that these threads get cluttered in the first place.For this having two threads would be a solution. One for the actual hacking work done and one where questions can be asked, but unless tied together in some way it would not work for the same reason.Laziness.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 06:09:37 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on October 26, 2022, 02:37:50 amThe answer is "No".The OP is responsible for the OP's posts. Nothing more. If someone wants to build and maintain an index of "significant" posts that's commendable, but it's a lot a lot of work and hardly obligatory.And yes, I understand that only the OP (or moderator) is able to edit the OP's posts. Oh well, that's just a fact of life.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 05:44:35 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on October 26, 2022, 06:09:37 amIs it really though? If you want to give the full play by play, that's awesome. And having an index of how the reverse engineering process plays out would help everyone to be able to reference that........ But even the minimum of essentially just one edit and link to the instruction information post that 99% of people come to the thread for would be minimally acceptable.And I contend it's not laziness that causes people to ask where the one most valuable post is, when it's one in thousands in that thread and buried in hundreds of pages of technical discussions and random arguments. That's like if you asked me for a specific technical detail and I told you it's in a book at the library and you are lazy for even asking when you could have already looked through every book yourself.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 06:10:31 pm
content: It's helpful, but it's an unreasonable expectation. This is a forum, not a wiki, and even a well intentioned OP who diligently keeps track of all the posts and highlights the most useful ones in the first post will eventually stop going back to the thread at some point, and then nothing beyond a point gets indexed, and you end up with a thread that appears a lot less helpful than it is after additional follow ups have been made. Case in point for this is the 3d printed replacement parts sticky at the top of this forum. The OP is a helpful index of replacements available, but it barely indexes the first few pages and hasn't been updated in years. While it would be a service to the community and a helpful resource to keep that main index updated, it is a lot of work, a lot of long term checking in, and is way beyond the scope of participation expectations for a forum user.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 06:30:22 pm
content: You also assume that people go to the first post first. It depends on how you go at it in checking posts, but I for one use the go to last post button at the end of a line when I list the unread posts since last visit.When I need to know something specific I use the site search or google to get the information needed. Try a lot of different terms. When not found I start browsing through a thread the information should be in. It takes a bit of time if it is a long thread, but by adding a post with "where is the solution" it only becomes longer.And you can think it is not laziness, to me it is. And there is a difference between asking a specific technical detail and this.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 06:44:05 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on October 26, 2022, 02:37:50 amNO!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2022, 11:27:34 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on October 26, 2022, 06:09:37 amAgreed.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2022, 01:18:48 am
content: Obligation? Nope. Ideal? Yes.When the OP message is not useful and the thread grow so much becomin importante, we should be able to re-use it.Something like expropiating for the health of the thread.For example, the Hantek DSO2xxx thread.The FAQ is in page 8, but should be the very first thing people see.OP message was "Hey there's a new Hantek scope out there" and probably never expected it to grow so much, becoming the main discussion thread.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2022, 10:47:26 pm
content: There are forums that allow a "summary" post to be placed directly below the first post. Here is an example:https://forums.redflagdeals.com/official-rfd-thread-high-interest-savings-accounts-see-thread-summary-updates-698055/It seems unlikely SMF would support something like this, above forum is using phpBB. It would also have to be limited to which threads it can be used in (eg only ones with 10+ pages of posts).

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2022, 11:44:39 pm
content: No matter how diligent you mantain your thread, there always be people with "Give me step by step instructions" attitude, even if such instructions were posted one page back.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 07:53:47 am
content: it's a forum, clue is in the name. If something like this were to be done the best way would be for someone to distil the information from the chatter and put it into a wiki, but that is no small job to undertake.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 11:47:48 am
content: As others have said, it is nice to have, but there is ABSOLUTELY no obligation - or even expectation (in my book) - for such an undertaking.Evensuggestingthere is such an obligation is an affront, IMO. For starters, it is not a house rule, so posting does not create such a responsibility. Further, it is not the place of any member to direct any other member to undertake such efforts. What bitseeker did in the TEA thread was excellent, but it was his decision to do that - and I have great respect for those efforts. There was no obligation for him to do that.Aside from this, not everyone will have the time to spend;- skimming through posts- deciding what should be indexed- typing up an index entry.... and then to have the inevitable critics point out things they would have done differently.If that day should ever come, I'll not be posting much - if anything - in the future.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 11:56:57 am
content: This thread should be closed as-is because the OP is not following his own rule.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 12:45:57 pm
content: Absolutely no obligation. But such summaries are useful and if someone has the passion to do it on a particular subject I can think of easy work around. For example, create your index and post it to the thread. A message to the OP requesting that a link to your index post be appended to the original message would probably be well received and only a trivial amount of work. In cases where the OP has left the forum the moderators might be inclined to help.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 08:53:12 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on October 29, 2022, 11:56:57 amOnce you guys say something worth indexing, I'll start the index :⁠-⁠)I kid. Seriously though, I said obligation when I should have said expectation. If you actually make it a forum rule then it goes from expectation to obligation though.Imagine if you volunteer for the job of being a project manager, then never show up to work after the first day. When it comes time to present the teams work to the rest of the company, it's the project managers job to make the summary report and not just photocopy thousands of pages of technical discussions and drop them on everyone's desks in file folders.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 09:29:30 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on October 29, 2022, 08:53:12 pmWhen you pay me to manage the thread summaries I might think about showing up for work. Until then I am voluntarily participating in an online discussion. It's not the same thing. Or are the rest of you all being paid???

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 09:41:01 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on October 29, 2022, 09:29:30 pmI did say volunteer. If I go to a soup kitchen and volunteer my time for free to make soup for the day, but then never show up.... That still breaks stuff, pay or not.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 09:46:28 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on October 29, 2022, 09:41:01 pmNot the same thing either, and I'm sure you know it. Exactly what did I volunteer for when I joined this forum? I will admit that I didn't read the fine print...Anyway, yeah an index (and indexer) would be nice but it's far from an obligation or even an expectation.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 11:48:41 pm
content: How are you supposed to know how popular your thread will be when you start it ?Some threads even get a new life long after the OP has gone.The problem is, the only reasonable place to put an index is at the start : you can't put it at the end, it doesn't stay still. And the only person who can edit the OP's starting post is the OP (or the mods, presumably but I don't think they'd appreciate being landed with the job of making an index).So, I don't think it's reasonable to require the OP to do it (and Dave agrees), and if some kind person comes along later and writes one there's no way to find it.I think it needs forum software support to add an index, or perhaps as a workaround, if it's possible, a manual moderator action to move someone else's index to the front of the thread and permit change of maintainer from time to time as required.I guess that's a formalised version of CatalinaWOW's idea.

author: PixieDust
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 07:29:35 am
content: Besides, if you care about the topic, it's probably worth reading the whole thing anyway.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 01:55:53 pm
content: There are several threads I care about and have read completely. The index is still useful when you want to refresh yourself on a point, or as in the knobs thread, have developed a need for a particular item.The problem remains that a good index is a lot of work. In a voluntary group such as this it has to be a labor of love. No one should be forced to do it.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 02:37:38 pm
content: Would be interesting to transform certain highly influential threads into -- very roughly/broadly speaking -- something community wiki like.But not actually wiki, because no one ever uses them either...I don't know if this is something that would need a change in policy as such, namely, whether you can expect a post to be edited for reasons other than strictly content moderation. Or if a post is considered ones' own copyright (which I believe is the case right now?), then how much and in what ways that might change with community editing.Obviously, it would require much more effort on mod staff's part, or some other kind of arrangement (that may or may not be easily supported on the forum already, or with plugins, or if those plugins work at all well..). I mean, not that there are all that many mega-threads here, and, the minimum effort would be just pasting in a list someone else has already compiled; but, more than zero effort towards such a task anyway, I mean.As-is, it's entirely up to individual responsibility, how good of a netizen someone can / wants to be.Like, one shouldalwayspost with the expectation that their content could lead others to success or failure, and do a best-effort job preparing that content, and then nurturing and managing it as needed.But that's obviously very unrealistic in practice.The balance to that, then, would be allowing others to assert those responsibilities, under suitable circumstances; but that again takes work. (Imagine that, responsibility takes work, no matter who's doing it...).It would be interesting to have some features like Stack Overflow (namely, that questions and answers can be edited by anyone with sufficient rank), but their complete model as such, discourages conversation (at least, most stacks do, I guess?), and probably creating a stack specifically for these kinds of topics or related, might not be a good fit to their policies (i.e., hacking content might be discouraged?). There are also facets of blogging in such threads, where people do research here or there -- maybe half-assedly or less, but still, something to add to the conversation; but it's also more interactive than standard blogging-as-such, as others reinterpret and direct such research, for example.Or various note-taking or knowledge-base kinds of systems, but those also require responsibility (you're not going to opt-in everyone at random who could scribble over or delete your notes..) so are largely team-invite managed, in practice.As for existing solutions; I mean, if there's value in it,and I mean literally,how about let people put their money where their mouth is -- I believe it's been noted that asking for donations is acceptable here?, and, if people want to, say, sponsor someone to dig through and do all that dirty work in their otherwise-spare time, well, that'll sure make it a hell of a lot easier to justify. And then maybe OP adds that to their post as a courtesy; maybe we decide it's okay for mods to do a courtesy edit to similar effect; maybe it's just posted in an entirely separate thread, and interested posters just add enough cross-links to make it obvious where to find both (or say maybe stickying the index instead of, or in addition to, the original).But the biggest barrier to that, I think, is almost everyone comes here specifically because it's free, no responsibility beyond basic courtesies, just a few header ads. So. Y'know. There might be plenty to complain about, but... it remains just that, complaints, lost to the wind?I suppose the flipside of that is, give or take copyright or plagiarism or whatever, one is free to simply copy (or rephrase, or compile, as the case may be) whatever information they find here, and if those collections happen to be monetizable for them... that's... simply whoever else's problem for missing out on those opportunities...right?Tim