Advice on test equipment - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: jorges
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 02:56:36 pm
content: Hi,First time poster here, although I've been following Dave's videos and many stuff in these fora for a long time. I work for a small company that started making/repairing mechanical tools used in endoscopic surgery (there are many big CNC machines at the shop) and that is gradually adding to its product lines electronic medical equipment. I need some advice for some test equipment we need to buy for our electronics lab. We need a balance between good, reliable equipment (we had a bad experience with a year old owon ds7102 that has some front-end problems plus some usability issues) and an affordable price that won't blow out our budget. Right now our needs , frequency-wise, are modest as we are working on the low MHz range, although we are expanding the range of applications we are getting into, so we might in the near future go up a bit, but I can't think of anything beyond 100MHz for the moment. The four channels for the scope is probably a must, as we usually repair/retrofit/reverse engineer equipment and that helps a lot, same goes for deep memory.- Oscilloscope. I was thinking on the DS2072, but we think we should get a 4 channel one. Here that means jumping to the ds4104 which is almost 3x the ds2072 price. The new DS1000z is not yet available here. Knowing that the available brands here are Tektronix, Agilent, Rigol, GWInstek, Siglent, Hantek, Owon and some other less known stuff, what would you suggest?- Signal generator. We don't have specs set in stone for this yet, but again, what brands would you trust/rely upon for your lab equipment- Logic analyzer. We will probably go for a low cost solution here, something along the lines of the Open workbench Logic Sniffer  , and later on move to more expensive equipment if it proves something we rely upon heavily. I am open to suggestions, though.I'll keep on browsing the fora's threads, especially regarding the signal generator and logic analyzer, but I have to give my suggestions for the purchase fairly soon, so I thought a post would guide me into the best options quicker.Thanks,Jorgehttp://dangerousprototypes.com/2010/02/25/prototype-open-logic-sniffer-logic-analyzer-2/

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 03:34:54 pm
content: Buy an Agilent MSO2014. That way you get a decent 20Mhz signal generator, the logic Analyzer and the Scope in one neat package. Used they go for 2000 € and are of awesome quality. That would be my suggestion. There is a firmware hack that is said to unlock the license.Hameg has good quality and a similar mixed signal scope, but is missing from your list.Both surpass most low-cost logic analyzers and are PC independant.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 05:20:46 pm
content: First of all, what country are you in. Also, I agree with the MSO2014, however, if you need serial decoding, you will want an Agilent MSO3000 series which goes up to $4000+

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 05:39:17 pm
content: The 2000 Series can do Serial decoding.

author: jorges
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 06:00:39 pm
content: Quote from: con-f-use on December 12, 2013, 03:34:54 pmI can't seem to find here in Argentina used Agilent nor Hameg scopes, just some old Teks. I just found a local reseller for Hameg, but the price is probably out of budget. The local reseller for agilent offers a DSO2014 which looks very much the one you suggest. Its US$ 3000, but it covers our needs except for the (relatively) small memory.Wouldn't you trust a Rigol scope? Or is it about having everything covered by only one piece of equipment?Quote from: echen1024 on December 12, 2013, 05:20:46 pmSorry I didn't include it initially, I'm in Argentina. We're pretty restricted ATM regarding imported stuff, and what we can get is usually overpriced WRT international prices. The MSO3000 series seems all we need, serial decoding, more memory, 16 digital channels, only thing is it costs US$4500Thank you both for the advice. I'll have these as an option

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 06:29:23 pm
content: Quote from: jorges on December 12, 2013, 06:00:39 pmAlthough the memory is smaller, triggering options allow for a more efficient use of memory (captures what you need, not everything & you have to scroll through it all to find what you're looking for). Segmented memory might be worth a look (not sure if available on that series, but is typically an option if it is).From what I understand of Rigol, they don't have as extensive a set of triggering capabilities, so they rely on the larger memory to capture rare events. So have to scroll through all that memory to find what you're looking for if it's a rare event.Quote from: jorges on December 12, 2013, 06:00:39 pmIf it does what you need, I don't see why not.See if they offer a demo/test drive program where you are, and find out for yourself if it does what you need before making a final decision. Both Agilent and Rigol offer this in the US, so hopefully this is available in Argentina as well.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 06:55:26 pm
content: Unfortunately jorges has the same problems that I do and as does everyone in South America, high prices and poor availability. The best way to buy things here is usually from the US if they will ship to South America or from anywhere else in the world. That is why I shop China and Europe and NA.

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 08:06:59 pm
content: not that i have ever used it but the rigol 1000z series scopes are suposed to be good they come in 100Mhz and 70Mhz they are all 4 chanell series and there is a 25Mhz function generator in the uk the 70Mhz version whithout the function gen goes for about £450

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2013, 02:08:12 am
content: Quote from: con-f-use on December 12, 2013, 05:39:17 pmReally? Why do I get the error when I press the "serial" button.

author: danb35
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2013, 03:09:11 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on December 13, 2013, 02:08:12 amWhat "serial" button would that be? It would be on the Decode menu, and under Decode you'd choose RS232. If you don't see that in the menu, you may not have that option installed--either pay Rigol for it, or follow the "sniffing Rigol's I2C bus" thread for how to generate your own option keys.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2013, 07:31:16 am
content: Agilent, not Rigol. Serial decoding is indeed activated by the 'Serial' button. On the 2000 series you'll need recent firmware, as it wasn't initially supported on that product, plus the licence key for the particular types of serial decoding you want to do.If you've not already used your 30 day free trial, it could be a good time to do that now. If you have, you can still request evaluation of any individual options you're interested in from an Agilent distributor.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2013, 09:29:33 am
content: Agilent's own used equipment shopon ebay. I heard you usually can get them down by 10% and get an option for free out of them. They ship world wide, prices are without tax.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2013, 09:32:36 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on December 13, 2013, 02:08:12 amHow should I know. But it works for me. Maybe you didn't buy the license or you don't have a recent firmware. Dave is even showing it in one of his videos.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2013, 03:08:23 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on December 13, 2013, 07:31:16 amAhhh. And no, I don't own an Agilent (want one). I was just playing with it at Fry's

author: jorges
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 13, 2013, 09:12:23 pm
content: Hi, thanks again for all your suggestions.We finally decided it has to be a four channel scope. That leaves us basically with very few options:High end scopes (at least to me)US$ 2800 + taxes- Agilent DSOX2004A: 70 MHz, 2 GSa/s, 100k pts memory, 8.5" WVGA (800x480), 50,000 waveforms/s, 23 measurements, FFT, 8 channel LA (optional), 20 MHz function generator (optional), mask test functions (optional), USB / LAN interface (optional)US$ 2800 + taxes- Rigol DS4014: 100 MHz, 4 GSa/s, 140 M pts memory, 9" WVGA, 110,000 waveforms/s, FFT, hardware filters (LP, HP, BP, BR), 200,000 frames recording capability, Serial bus decoding (RS232/485, I2C, SPI, CAN, Flexray) (optional), measurements w/ statistics, mathematical operations (+,-,X,/,integration, differentiation, logarithm, exponential, root, sin, cos, tan), logical operations, mask test functions, automatic probe detection, USB, LAN, VGA interfacesLow end scopes:US$ 1300 + taxesRigol DS1074B - 70 MHzUS$ 1000 + taxesSiglent SDS1074CFL - 70 MHzUS$1500 + taxesGW Instek GDS-2074A - 70 MHzGiven that we are already stretching our budget, it is very unlikely that we'll be buying the optionals, but in that case, they're cheaper for the Rigol than the Agilent (well, but the Rigol doesn't come with LA and signal generator as an option). I would very much like to have a 4 channel option in the Rigol ds2000 line. I feel like I have to blow the budget just for the 4 channel option, or get lower quality w/ less features scope. Agilent has an excellent reputation, but the rigol seems more usefull with its 140 M pts memory. Is any of the two hackable? Having the optionals for free would ceratinly change this landscape. What do you think? I am ignorant regarding the siglent and the gw instek, I will look in the forums, but they're probably several steps below the agilent and the rigol.

author: Carrington
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2013, 09:16:58 pm
content: @ jorgesYou knew this:Another possible option:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent%27s-new-product-msosds2000-series/http://www.siglent.eu/oscilloscopes/sds-2000-series.html

author: jorges
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 13, 2013, 09:30:49 pm
content: No, I didn't know. You've got me interested... watching now!

author: jorges
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 13, 2013, 10:50:27 pm
content: A coleague at work just suggested something I hadn't thought of: Given that the rigol ds2072 is in a sort of sweet spot in terms of price/perf. *AND* that there seems to be a hack for it releasing the available options, why not buy two of them? In regular situations we just have two scopes, and whenever is required we can synchronize them and use them (with some limitations) as a 4 channel scope? That still cheaper than buying the ds4014. Do some of you use this approach? What would be missing? For one thing, it would be more cumbersome to use two scopes, but on the other hand, we could even use two time bases. Just sharing this here to check if I'm not becoming crazy with this scope selection craziness...

author: Carrington
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2013, 11:35:21 pm
content: That happens to almost everyone. We all look for quality, but... What is quality? I have my own definition: Quality = Customer satisfaction.And if it's cheap better. But it's not always easy to predict what requirements we need to cover. So, I understand you perfectly.Note that the DS2072 does not have LA, yet. Although, I am more in favor of having the LA as a separate instrument.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2013, 03:09:53 am
content: Quote from: jorges on December 13, 2013, 10:50:27 pmAnother advantage of the 4000 series however, is the massive 140 Mpts memory, 110k wfms, and a MSO version as well.

author: jorges
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 14, 2013, 03:53:31 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on December 14, 2013, 03:09:53 amRight, I have those in mind, but they don't come free. Two ds2072 are around US$2000, plus the possibility of the optional features for free, the ds4014 would cost us US$2800 and, I would love to be corrected here, cannot be hacked. The MSO option isn't available here yet (We need this scope working in a couple of weeks), and it would certainly cost more. Well, I have the weekend to come up with a decision...

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2013, 03:54:55 am
content: Quote from: jorges on December 14, 2013, 03:53:31 amIt can be hacked. Look at the riglol keygen:http://riglol.3owl.com/

author: jorges
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 14, 2013, 04:10:08 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on December 14, 2013, 03:54:55 amThat's good info, and it seems the agilent dsox can also. I'll have to dive into the forums and clarify this before making a decision. Free LA, and signal generator do add to the equation, although I can still think of situations where 140 M pts do make a difference...

author: jorges
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 14, 2013, 02:10:59 pm
content: It seems *both* the rigol ds4000 and the agilent dsox2000 are hackable, but then, the agilent optional features include the LA and signal generator. The only thing that makes me hesitate is the huge memory in the Rigol. In what specific use cases the memory in the Rigol would allow it do things the agilent wouldn't be able to do? I can think of, please correct me if I am wrong, for example loooking at a signal where there's a high frequency component somehow modulated by a much lower one. With the Rigol one could acquire and analize a complete macro cycle still having the finer details. I had to deal with this with the owon sds7102 when I was trying to understand the way the RF generator used by a blood vessel sealing system worked. There, there is a 470 kHz signal being modulated in amplitude during the sealing cycle. The cycle can be a few seconds long. Are there many other situations in which the memory would make more difficult or even limit the analysis/observation?