Petition to open/reform Australian Standards availability - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2022, 10:38:49 pm
content: https://www.aph.gov.au/e-petitions/petition/EN4101There's a petition to address the high cost of the Australian Standards, where buildings, tools, products, vehicles and all manner of products are required to abide by these standards as law, but you are required to purchase them to know what they are. For tradesmen, small businesses or manufacturers, multiple volumes of standards are needed to ensure you have all applicable standards, not to mention they have to be the latest versions. These represent an ongoing cost providing little value for money, as subsequent versions of standards often have minimal changes.So in the interests of the edification of the population, giving people knowledge to protect them in consumer matters (for example, buying houses and property) and to encourage innovation by reducing the manufacturing overheads of small businesses, I've added my signature.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2022, 11:57:15 pm
content: I've added mine as well.I would urge all Australians to consider doing so as well.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2022, 06:03:29 am
content: Great idea, if you think so too, please sign.This would for exampel incude the mains wiring standards amounds hundreds of others of value to the engineering community.https://www.aph.gov.au/e-petitions/petition/EN4101/

author: gamalot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2022, 06:08:30 am
content: I signed it.Can anyone sign? I am not yet an Australian citizen and hold permanent resident status.

author: SmallCog
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2022, 11:47:33 am
content: Quote from: gamalot on April 18, 2022, 06:08:30 amDeclaration at the bottom is “I declare that I am a resident or citizen of Australia and I am not a current Member of the House of Representatives.”I just signed it

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2022, 11:59:30 am
content: "restrictions on accessibility are increasing"This is so true.e.g. You can't share with anyone at your workplace, it's YOUR copy only. Don't put it on a network drive, or you become the devil.e.g. Print a few pages for reference and the text is barely legible (deliberately obfuscated), to the point I get a sore head trying to read it. WTF.Customer hostile business practices are becoming so damn common place, at least this petition tries to fight back.But the cash cow will never be sacrificed.Not. Gonna. Happen.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2022, 02:14:24 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on April 18, 2022, 11:59:30 amI bet that has been said about a LOT of changes that DID happen.You just have to make enough noise.I've added my couple of dB.

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 01:49:44 am
content: Currently technical standards in Australia are a bit of a 'closed shop'.If you think they should be free or low cost (after all you can't adhere to rules you can't access) then sign this petition.The petition comes recommended to me via the Institute of Transportation Engineers (Aust/NZ) but will also be relevant for those in electronics.https://www.aph.gov.au/e-petitions/petition/EN4101

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 01:52:06 am
content: There is a thread for it exist already.

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 02:27:21 am
content: So there ishttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/peition-to-open-the-australian-standards/msg4124695/

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 02:38:00 am
content: As it's election season could be worth requesting support from your MP and candidates once you've signed the petition.MPs list here:https://www.aph.gov.au/Senators_and_Members/Members

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 08:38:44 am
content: I merged all the duplicate topics so I apologise for the repeats in URLs etc...Whilst this doesn't impact me directly as I currently have free access to Australian Standards, I do find it a bit weird that other users are charged so much for what should be open information (particularly if there are laws and rules professionals must follow in order to comply). Needless to say, I've added my signature to this cause as it definitely is worthy of looking into.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 09:39:30 am
content: Similar problem in the EU was that it was nearly impossible to get 'EN' standards without paying 100's of euros per document.Then the Estonians decided to undercut everyone and you could buy individual documents for a few euros each, as of course they had full access due to being an EU member. Beautiful.Sadly not possible if Australia is the only issuing agency!

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 10:03:12 am
content: Currently this petition seems to be pulling in a couple of thousand signatures per day. Usually it's hard to get any traction with Australians politically. This must have tapped into an previously unknown voting bloc, the pissed off building sector demographic.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2022, 06:20:51 am
content: Quote from: John B on April 21, 2022, 10:03:12 amHell it pisses me off and I'm not even Australian, I've never even visited, this kind of thing just pisses me off in general. Obviously I'm not eligible to sign the petition anyway though.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2022, 06:38:37 am
content: I'm not Australian so I'm not elegible for but I would sight without batting an eye since I know very well how in EU it works and it's the same. Want the documents? You have to pay.

author: Eric L.
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 26, 2022, 07:06:01 am
content: I would love to sign, but as I am from Europe I am not eligible. However, I fully support this petition and hope for positive outcome.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2022, 07:22:19 am
content: Whilst I support the idea in principle, the fear is this information enables the idiots. The AS3000 is good in that they do fill the volume with explanation on why the changes were necessary (for obvious reasons). It's only a select few not directly requiring access to the standard all the time can comprehend the information.The Plumbing/drainage one is problematic because the tome doesn't teach you about the basics of bacteria protection. Just how to prevent it. If you need these standards for a once off, then you should be hiring someone who has paid for the access and therefore probably more in a position to advise you.

author: ssander
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2022, 07:47:32 am
content: Had a licensed electrician fit a circuit breaker to a final subcircuit on a meter board they were replacing. The original board was from the '80s. The board contained the electrical meters, circuits for townhouses, and circuits for common property lighting and GPOs.Access to the wiring standards would have been really handy.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2022, 08:32:53 am
content: Quote from: ssander on April 26, 2022, 07:47:32 amThe electrician didn't have a copy?

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2022, 08:44:44 am
content: Excellent initiativeSame here in EU, if you need to design a product and be sure that it comply with whatever applicable standard you have to buy 10 of those as each one will refer to another one.

author: ssander
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2022, 11:54:04 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on April 26, 2022, 08:32:53 amThe electrician knew what they were doing, they demonstrated that on another meter board at the same complex.Without access to the standard, it makes it difficult to reference the standard and show non-compliance.

author: SmallCog
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2022, 12:42:24 am
content: Quote from: ssander on April 26, 2022, 11:54:04 amAgreed.It's very useful to be able to reference a standard to make sure that the work that has been done to that standard is actually to that standard.I currently have educational access via the library at the college I'm studying at. I'm seriously considering finding cheap useless courses just to keep this access.

author: DeanA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2022, 02:42:08 am
content: Signed.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2022, 04:23:38 am
content: Quote from: SmallCog on April 27, 2022, 12:42:24 amAs far as work in Oz is concerned, I think we're forgetting that a licenced electrician has an obligation to follow the standard since, ultimately, his licence is at stake. In addition to that, sometimes the installation work has to be certified and there is no way anyone will risk pissing off a certifying authority officer.With regards to electrical installation safety,if the fitter is licenced, they should be more than able to assure you that the work is safe should you wish to indicate your apprehension. And if you ask nicely they might even teach you a thing or two.But waving a standards book at a electrical contractor is a dick move. Just talk to them regarding your safety concerns. If you're unable to establish a good relationship then find someone else. Having the book is useless at that point anyway.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2022, 05:53:55 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on April 27, 2022, 04:23:38 amAre you being contrarian for the sake of it? There's no non-authoritarian argument against the public having access to the standards they have to live and operate under by law. This really seems like a centuries old argument that the peasants have to live by the bible, but the peasants aren't allowed to learn to read.The building industry is rife with --literally-- sub standard work, simply having faith that work being done up to standard and that there's always going to be some higher authority reviewing the work is just contrary to reality.The best you can do is cover yourself from a few different angles, and one of those is being educated yourself on what standards are applicable. That doesn't mean you're going to catch anything and everything wrong, nor does it mean you are going to judge everything correctly and win every argument against a tradesman or inspector. But it's far more beneficial for the consumer to have some knowledge as opposed to flying blind and just hoping mummy government is doing everything for you. Apparently what they're doing is giving our laws to multinational corpos to sell.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2022, 06:38:25 am
content: Quote from: John B on April 27, 2022, 05:53:55 amWell, the end game, I believe, is to do away with all the tradies and allow anybody to do anything. Some say the sooner the better. The idea then is to have a inspector for each service visit regularly for a fee. This puts the onus back on the landowner to ensure the occupants are safe no matter who did what. It already happens with rural sewage, bushfire prevention and smoke alarms to a degree.Regular mandatory solar inspections are coming very soon. The meter readers aren't around any more to flag the dangerous fuseboxes. In the meantime, a person with standards books out the arse isn't currently authorised (or trained!) to safely open any electrical fixture to inspect the work within.Understand, we are looking at the same turd from different dung hills.

author: ssander
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2022, 10:40:40 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on April 27, 2022, 04:23:38 amWhen I highlighted the issue of non-compliance to the strata committee. The response back from the committee member overseeing the project was that the licensed electrician claimed the installation was "safe and legal".Fair trading agreed with me that the work done was non-compliant, and the licensed electrician had to come back and fix it.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2022, 11:02:12 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on April 27, 2022, 06:38:25 amThere's a middle way, certify anyone doing it for hire and leave citizens free. Everything after the main fuse is between me and my insurer and my insurer isn't sending any inspectors. Here, the end game is "some people will die and that's okay".

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2022, 11:28:45 pm
content: Think we need to get something like this rolling in the uk , 2nd amendment to our wiring regs landed a month ago,that'll be £130 worth of books when you add in the onsite guide and guidance notes,the previous amendment isn't 2 years old,and the regs were only released in 2018.so over £400 in less than 4 years.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2022, 11:32:51 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on April 27, 2022, 11:02:12 pmThat is almost the other extreme, but leaves some people at a significant exposure: renters and public/commercial locations. I have seen some "shockers" clearly done by DIYers. If someone buys a house they can choose if they want an inspection or not, but the cost and time required to check that is disproportionate to a 1 year rental contract (default rental term here). Workplaces are supposed to provide a safe environment, but too often they don't, my house is safer than my workplace but what should be the minimum level of safety acceptable?Australian situation at the moment: all tradespeople are supposed to be responsible for their work being up to applicable standard, but the only people able to assess that are their own colleagues (its somewhat a racket/protectionism, and rarely do tradespeople have complaints upheld or lose their registration). Its a logical system as many of the things that need to be inspected are hidden in the process (plumbing in particular) so after the fact inspection as Ed.Kloonk suggests is stupid, as it would require installations to be designed specifically for inspection. Even routine electrical "test and tag" plus checking earth continuity in residential installations would be barely functional when you look at the mindless zombies in those industries. Same issue as the tradespeople at the moment, they can do completely inadequate work and if you question them on it the onus is on you to prove the problem. When you do prove the problem was with their substandard work they begrudgingly fix it up and go onto their nextsuckerclient.The problem is fixing the racket of "trained" people who aren't held to account, opening the standards would be one less roadblock in that.Even with all the "assurances" of the current Australian system myself and others always get an electrical compliance check done when buying a new property. Just for our own safety, with a tradesperson we trust.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2022, 01:51:58 am
content: Quote from: Someone on April 27, 2022, 11:32:51 pmThe situation with hidden services is that you inspect for obvious effects such as mould, dampness, cracking and damage. It looks as though the initial solar inspections will be brutal at first but will settle down once the dust settles. Once word of mouth spreads that folks are having their solar systems turned off and carded, I think the dodgy setups will get cleaned up fairly quickly and a bit of repair and shiny new sealant here and there will keep them happy.But we all know it's not about safety nor satisfactory workmanship. It's about collecting fees and keeping some peeps in a job. It's good that you'll have access the to information because, frankly, you're going to need it when the arguments start.The general population is demanding overall more compliance and these checkers will know the rules. My problem, again, is the new wave of inspectors coming through just like the ordinary home owner will read the rules but not really have had the full background training. It's what people want, apparently.It's a can of worms that is going to cost a lot of people a lot of money but I do sincerely hope that in the long run the standard of work will lift accordingly.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 07:43:41 pm
content: It goes way beyond Oz. Flogging standards is a gloabal racket shrouded in offshore wierdness, flags of conveneience and dubious publishing rights. A junket for blokes in expensive suits. Its thoroughly scandalous because standard creation is largely funded by tax payers cash.Its the same with science and tech journals. The tax payer funds the work and then has to pay to see the results. How does that work (not)?I think they dont want us to see where the money goes or what utter BS is keeping someone in a job.Its been dark days since Sci-hub has was blocked here in the UK.