Expensive Test Equipment - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 05:09:17 pm
content: I must say how surprised I am at the quite common, and almost offhand discussions and reviews of so much test equipment that costs in the thousands to tens-of-thousands of US bucks.That seems to imply that there are a lot of folks in these forums who are directly responsible for specifying and directing the purchasing of this test equipment for companies, universities, etc., since I'm guessing this equipment is out of range for most other users.And I'd think that most large corporations already have already in-place procurement contracts/deals with specific vendors of this type of equipment, resulting from previous bidding cycles, etc., so it's not like you can decide on a fancy new model and shift to a different vendor.So is the interest in this equipment merely informational, or are folks here actually going out and paying for a $12,000, 1 GHz scope?Thanks.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 05:17:17 pm
content: Some companies do actually listen to the people that use the equipment when it comes to buying it.A fair number of the people here are quite senior engineers, and have therefore reached quite comfortable levels of income, and spending $12k on a piece of test gear isn't any more crazy than spending it on a sports car, yacht, etc etc.Some of us aren't that well off, and just spend a lot of time and patience to get lucky with a sore-dick deal on (insert your auction site of choice here).I'm in the second group, but moving towards the first

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 05:29:48 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on March 21, 2020, 05:17:17 pmI suppose I've been in the first group for many years (Principal/Consulting Engineer for much of 45+ years), but for the life of me I can't imagine justifying the features included in, say, a $12,000 scope, for example.Are people actually utilizing that high end equipment's capabilities? I assumed much of that those high end features/specs were needed mostly for designing/testing/verifying actual products that need to meet tight specifications and regulations or else the company is in big trouble.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 06:23:17 pm
content: If your hobby involves anything above a few hundred MHz, sure.Quite a few of the "amateurs" here are into Ham radio (not guilty), and though this is lower frequency, I dare say quite a few of them like to experiment with higher frequency radio communications for the fun of it.Lots of us are straight up volt-nuts, time-nuts, or just plain spec-nuts.At the end of the day, people spend their disposable income on what they enjoy, it's no more complicated than that.

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 06:28:18 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on March 21, 2020, 06:23:17 pmOkay, thanks. I know exactly what you mean.So I suppose it's appropriate to====>>>> INSERT TIM TAYLOR/HOME IMPROVEMENT GRUNTS HERE <<<<<====BTW, Ham radio is still a thing?? Wow. I think I had a license long ago, but never used it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 06:58:23 pm
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on March 21, 2020, 05:29:48 pmIt depends on what you are doing but also whether your employer sees the benefit in having good tools. The most succesful employers I have worked for invested a lot in good tools because they boost productivity. If your budget is tight then there is a lot of high-end gear for sale on the used market.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 07:02:40 pm
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on March 21, 2020, 05:09:17 pmLook harder! You have no idea!Even ordinary distributors are selling scope probes that cost $5000 each! And then there are the scopes.Or perhaps you would prefer a low end resistive voltage divider for that amount, e.g.https://www.ietlabs.com/esi-dp-1211-dp1311-voltage-dividers.htmlBasically, take someone salary, multiply by 2.5, work out how much time the right instrument will save, and compare to the cost of the equipment. Then add the cost of delayed time to market.For 50 years, the cost of a decent HP or Tek scope has been a years salary.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 07:31:05 pm
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on March 21, 2020, 05:09:17 pmReally? I don't see that.For example for scopes, the majority of discussions here seem to be about instruments way below $3k, i.e. either new entry level devices or some used instrument which once may have cost >$10k but now can be found for similar money.When it comes to the next level above ($3k to $5k, which is the lower mid-range segment) then there already are a lot fewer discussions about this class of scopes. Another step up ($5k - $12k, upper mid-range) and you'll find even less. And above that there's almost nothing.The same is true for pretty much any other type of test equipment.This is understandable, as forums like this are predominantly visited by hobbyists.QuoteNo, not really.Also, it's pretty rare for the edu market to spend big bucks on individual instruments. More often the money goes for a larger number of simpler devices.QuoteI'm buying a lot of test equipment professionally, and in most cases am free to buy from whoever I see fit. There are cases where some companies only want to buy from one of their preferred supplier (which usually are distributors, not manufacturers) but that often changes quickly when I get better prices from somewhere elseBut yes, there are particulars one needs to take into account.QuoteWell, I'm here when I'm bored and there is nothing at this moment to do in real lifeAnd $12k for a scope is nothing1GHz scopes are pretty much our baseline scopes, i.e. the lowest class we buy (although we do also have some 500MHz/600Mhz models). The average amount we spent on scopes is probably closer to $100k, and for some scopes we spent in excess of $1M.So for me it's important to know what's out there and how that fits to the requirements of my clients.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 08:45:43 pm
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on March 21, 2020, 05:09:17 pmOf course it is, how otherwise would people get to know of the new offerings to the market.Dave fosters this on EEVblog by his equipment reviews and teardowns.QuoteCost is entirely relative to one's needs, be it a 200 MHz 2ch scope for $350 or a 1 GHz 4ch unit for $7k

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 09:04:20 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 21, 2020, 08:45:43 pmIt looks like you're a Siglent distributor, so isn't it the case that you visit your business clients to show them the latest equipment? I thought that's how the business/corporate clients would be informed.Also, I agree that cost is relative to one's needs. That's entirely obvious

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 09:12:22 pm
content: BTW, part of what caused me to raise this question is a video from yesterday where Dave posted a review of the $3,250 R&S NGP 800 PS, plus I also ran across a shootout video from last year where he went over a spreadsheet of 1 GHz scopes that ranged from $5k to $15k or something like that. Plus a ton of other reviews of equipment that is clearly up in the $thousands range. Just surprised there's apparently a lot of interest in those high end units that's all.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 09:18:30 pm
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on March 21, 2020, 09:04:20 pmYes but as a small distributor in a small country of just 5M visiting the length and breadth of the country is not feasible and with most business done online these days not necessary either.All customers now online research products they intend to purchase and many NZ customers end up here so get the experience of other owners rather than just sales spin they might get face to face.However the TE landscape is a rapidly changing place now with good well priced equipment from the east that there are now many other choices other than the traditional brands.

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 09:26:18 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 21, 2020, 09:18:30 pmAh, okay. My experience is that (at least in a large corporation here in US) we have long term contracts with equipment vendors, and there's usually a local rep company (hired by the manufacturer) that's always available to do stuff like on-site training, showing you the cool new gadgets, answering questions, etc. I'm assuming that's not too uncommon in many areas, and in many industries. Or at least have a direct support number for the clients to call someone any time for support, questions about new products, etc.Although I totally agree that Dave's stuff and I'm sure the discussions here are far more valuable and in-depth in most cases.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 09:31:11 pm
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on March 21, 2020, 09:26:18 pmYeah, this forum at least gets you hands-on experience from fellow engineers instead of sales droids jabbering on about useless numbers like waveforms per second and history mode.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 09:39:33 pm
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on March 21, 2020, 09:26:18 pmYes there are members here such as Wuerstchenhund that do exactly this providing the latest info on equipment that best suits his customers needs and have a vast experience with highly capable gear but less so for the day to day hobbyist value equipment.For most brands there's a list of their distributors and resellers on their websites but as many resellers are multibrand their intimate knowledge of particular models is sometimes somewhat lacking.Whereas here there are threads, some large on specific models that gives the thorough reader most everything they'd ever need to know.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 03:27:26 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 21, 2020, 09:31:11 pmExactly, back in the day, when Tek & HP first pretty much "leapt into DSOs with both feet", their Reps would come to my work, demonstrating the latest devices.Unfortunately, their "script" didn't allow for our real concerns, & they would come up with nonsense like "It's just a different way of looking at it", when "Blind Freddie" could see that these early DSOs had major alias problems, making them completely unsuitable for our purposes.The immediate result was, that when we wanted a 200MHz Oscilloscope for the transmitter site, we bought an Anritsu analogue!If we had a resource like this forum back then, we could have told them to stay home, or maybe go up a couple of levels in the stuff they demonstrated.

author: apblog
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 06:19:25 am
content: When you consider how fast edge rates on logic outputs have become, a 1 GHz scope starts to really become a necessity for professional design, even if the actual clock speed isn't very high.And any FPGA or CPU with DDR SDRAM is probably going to be running that RAM at at least 250MHz. So your scope needs to be quite fast just to get an (imperfect) idea of whether the signal integrity is in spec or not.So yeah, there are actual individual engineers shelling out for this gear, because it really is necessary to get the job done.But most I think, like myself, do their best to get it used or refurb.For example I have a 20+ year old 2GHz eBay boat-anchor scope, that has saved my bacon on several occasions. Mostly related to DDR issues.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 11:08:46 am
content: There's also the aspect of how fast technology advances. I own a 20 year old HP 8753ES 6GHz Vector Network Analyzer that probably cost $100,000 when it was new, probably more than a 6-bedroomed house at the time. I paid $3,000 for it and it's built like a tank.Now there are 33 GHz scopes that cost $250,000 which 99.99999999999999999% of us here can't afford and, even if I won the lottery, I wouldn't buy one.So people with test equipment needs but limited budgets can meet those needs either buying used or looking for new, lower cost stuff like Rigol and Siglent. As I move toward retirement (although the stock market crash seems to have pushed that way back), I have replaced a (slightly used when I bought it) $9,000 Keysight MSO7104B 1GHz scope with a $1,000 Rigol MSO5074 350 MHz scope; is the Rigol as 'good'? No, but I can make it do what I need and, technically, it's capable of 8Gsps where the Keysight was only capable of 4Gsps and the reality was that I (almost) never needed 1GHz bandwidth.

author: Saskia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 11:22:32 am
content: well, for a hobbyist whose ideas spill over into the professional work I do, I do have some expensive test equipment that I do not necessarily need.However: I got it with a HUGE discount (Keysight MSOX03154T demo unit and fully loaded Agilent Logic Analyser Mainframe), I can write it off my taxes (which are prohibitive over here) AND when doing repairs or trying to get into debugging, good equipment certainly helps.And hell, why not. YOLO.

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 11:38:24 am
content: Hey, I totally understand. I've been in engineering coming up on 50 years. Computers, lab/bench testing, hardware, software, and on and on. And, let's be honest, 99.999% of all engineering tech discussions (and other discussions in just about any other field) are primarily about one thing:====>>>>INSERT TIM TAYLOR/HOME IMPROVEMENT GRUNTS HERE<<<<<====That's about the same percentage of people on the internet/youtube who are interested in entertainment over learning. That's just how it isAs Dave would say "No wackers".https://media.giphy.com/media/13L41SneZO45TW/giphy.gif

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 03:11:32 pm
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on March 21, 2020, 05:09:17 pmIt seems my interests far exceed my disposable income so as far as my electronics hobby goes, most of my TE is used and more than 20 years old. Some is much older. As long as it does what I need it to, I don't care about age.So to answer your question, I am not watching reviews on $12,000 scopes and rushing out to buy them. Any reviews (old or new) I would watch are purely for my own entertainment. I don't think I have ever watched a review and rushed out to get one.I'm the opposite, for example I've had an old 1970s HP VNA that I rebuilt many years ago. After five years of looking at features, performance, age, size, parts availability and cost, I'm finally upgrading.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 11:08:07 pm
content: Whoa, an 8409B? That's brave!http://hpmemoryproject.org/wb_pages/wall_b_page_05.htmI've got an 8510C and I thought *it* was pretty darn bulky!http://hpmemoryproject.org/technics/bench/8510/bench_8510_home.htm

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 11:48:58 pm
content: There are companies, that listen to the engineer. Sometimes, depends on the size and depends on the managers. I typically work in ones, that are less than 500 people, where the engineering team is maybe a dozen or two. Equipment choice is definitely something that I have a say in.Quote from: engrguy42 on March 21, 2020, 05:09:17 pmYes, I told purchase last year to buy one.Quote from: engrguy42 on March 21, 2020, 09:12:22 pmWell, you know, would you ask a truck driver, if he really needs that truck for his job?

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 12:13:41 am
content: Content about pricier units also helps inform you of what's out there on the high end, or what differentiates (or doesn't) expensive units from cheaper ones. Maybe there are some who can afford one from the get go, but many others will be able to afford the two-generation-old used unit and would be interested on what some higher end features or performance can offer, as there often isn't much actual information beyond a datasheet for some older devices. Then there will be some value to the hobby segment 10 years down the road when the used units start being resold, even if much of the interest for a hobbyist is just in knowing what's out there initially.If someone does actually have the budget for something premium, though, I certainly think they'd want to see it in use and see how it responds to interaction. While the company buyer usually does this through a sales rep and a trial, it can be pretty time consuming to get a real comparison between different vendor's products this way - setting up a week long trial is great if you think it's the one you want, but if four companies offer a similar product, you probably don't want to spend a month negotiating with four separate reps and trying them all out unless it's a really big purchase. Seeing a product from a vendor your company doesn't have a relationship in action could be the impetus to seek out a rep, or it could be a good confirmation that the one you're demoing is a superior unit. Then there are smaller companies or ones without an existing vendor relationship that just want some additional, third party information on a product they're considering before they make their move.I think there is more money spent on test equipment in the hobby segment than a lot of people realize or talk about totally openly, but even preliminary review content or informal online discussions can end up being very valuable to purchasing decisions of companies with the budgets to shell out five or six figures per piece of equipment, especially when supplemented with a proper trial.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 01:20:53 am
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on March 21, 2020, 05:29:48 pmThe lab at work has a $30k+ Keysight scope. All the advanced triggers and decoding options are worth the price of entry alone in a business environment where you need to get things done. Does it have the same utility for a home lab? I'd say it really depends on whether or not you're getting paid to use your home lab. If it's just for fun (as I'd wager many people here, including myself, are using it for), it tends to be more cost effective to make do with older equipment that can be had for a song (and maybe some repairs).

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 05:40:31 am
content: Many of us have access to high-end equipment at work. I used to belong to this group. As a hobbyist, I have a GHz scope but it is an old one and only paid $350 or so.Any serious hobby is/can_be expensive. Photography, audio, watch collection, etc, etc, etc. Some people can afford it, most people can't.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 06:18:07 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on March 22, 2020, 03:11:32 pmYou are not alone. In fact, hardly any of the people who buy a $12k scope watch reviews. Because these buyers tend to be institutional (i.e. businesses) and they simply get a loaner unit to test and assess the suitability of a specific instrument for the task, or (if they just need additional scopes) simply buy the same/successor model of the scope model they bought previously for a similar task.Video reviews of expensive equipment is pretty much nerd porn, i.e. something for hobbyists to gaze at so they can see what else is out there.

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 08:44:43 am
content: First and foremost assess what your REAL requirements are for the tasks in hand recently we have been looking at research scopes. We are an SME and have a respectable budget for test equipmentAfter three loan trials from the usual suspects and still no real canditadate I spoke with some former colleagues at an aerospace company I worked for also some quality advice from Wuerstchenhund we now have a LeCroy Wavepro 254 on order.The brand would not have been on my radar before now very different.Again no on line reviews or many recommendations available so professional every users experiences are extremely usefulWe also have Ghz scopes, spectrum and vector analyers, ultra low noise power supplies, 8.5 digit dmm, vector signal generators a couple of function generators, EMC probes, LISN's current probes including rf etcThese are all essential for our business and the members of EEV blog forum have been very helpful in selecting the correct equipment for our circumstances

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 09:11:11 am
content: As a pure hobbyist I have tens of thousands in professional equipment at home. If I was to consider the original new retail price, I would have had to spend hundreds of thousands.The reason I have all this equipment is actually pretty simple:I found out that I learn with more motivation and better understanding, if I can actually use the required equipment. Learning only theory by the book is pretty dull. So having for instance a full blown spectrum analyzer in front of me, makes it much more fun to learn about HF. At least in my case.This has led me to buy SECOND HAND equipment at very moderate prices. Often the stuf comes even cheaper because it is broken. Here a second learning curve appears: the repair of said equipment.This then made me get aware of how things work and how to repair it and I started to do some real work collaboration in exchange for even more equipment - this is when I got access to new products. Still all in terms of a hobby.So here you have my story.Regards,Vitor

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 09:39:48 am
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on March 21, 2020, 05:09:17 pmWith the risk of sounding somewhat full of myself here:I work at a research group that has a annual lab budget in the 7-figure range. We have direct contact with a number of vendors, and also get access to unreleased/unannounced hardware from one of the vendors we work with. That however does not stop us from working with others too.Quote from: engrguy42 on March 21, 2020, 05:09:17 pmFor the real expensive stuff, like a new VNA, 100 GHz oscilloscope, etc: Yeah, we don't go much on reviews. We get loan units that we try out with our applications, or even more common, we tell the (three main) vendors our applications and needs, and they look at what they can offer, and often sets up a private demo in our lab to try and show how their piece of kit would help us get better/faster/more reliable measurements.For cheaper stuff, like power supplies, multi-meters, lower-end scopes (which for us is <5 GHz) and SMUs,reviews do really look at reviews. Basically, when you look at how much time it would take to really study and compare all the options out there, and what our engineers/lab equipment/etc comes in a kind of $/hour, it is just not worth getting loan units to try out the options.We recently bought a number of keithley DAQs based on TheSignalPath's review of the unit.