End the Monopoly - we need Open Source Inkjet Printers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 12:31:48 am
content: this video got me thinkingone way to end the inkjet printer monopoly is open source competition.this has many interesting possibilities.if 3D printing has open source why not 2D printing?to end the ink cartridge scams.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 12:51:53 am
content: How is it a scam? All you will get as a result is $500 printers.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 01:53:58 am
content: I'm not sure about ink jet printers (I haven't used one in about 20 years) but I know there are still quite a number of good quality laser printers, which don't lock you in to replacing cartridges when they printer thinks they need replacing, or forcing you to buy their consumables.I have a Brother laser printer and I can normally get several hundred more pages after it prompts me to replace the toner. It's just a matter of putting a piece of opaque tape over the optical sensing window. No crappy authentication chips to worry about. If a company doesn't try to screw me just to make a few extra dollars, I don't mind buying their genuine consumables. OKI is another company I have respect for.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 02:29:15 am
content: Quote from: jonovid on April 03, 2018, 12:31:48 amThis Epson's ink head manufacturing video, quite old (2014) makes me think that "usually" the monopoly is also driven by companies that manufacture the head.Scams or not, we just can't open source the core of the ink's head technology and have to rely on these companies, this video shows that probably the factory it self cost Epson billions dollars.https://youtu.be/rHqDHmqPS-c

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 03:00:22 am
content: Just buy a 200$ color laser printer instead. Toner lasts so much longer and no ink clogs due to cheap third party lousy inks with the wrong viscosity or formula & you can reset your toner cartridge toner level in the menu if there is still some toner left.Also, the new Epson printers got rid of the ink cartridges in favor for tanks of ink you can fill in mass for cheap.Also, for existing printers, just google 'paint jet Continuous Ink Supply adapter kits'. Endless huge jugs of ink you attach to the side of your printer. You will burn out you printer before emptying one of these...Examples:https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA1DD0C36114https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=0WX-0006-00027

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 03:23:03 am
content: I gave up on inkjet printers years ago, they print nice photos but the ink is dried up or clogged whenever I need it. The reason for the locked cartridges is they sell the printer at or below cost and try to make up the difference selling ink. If you stop that practice the printer prices will go up instead, which is ok by me but it's not really going to save much money for the consumer.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 03:59:31 am
content: While I agree it isn't likely to be worth doing, I don't think the problem is as hard as portrayed. You don't need to manufacture your own print heads. Or even the carriage/driver mechanisms. Just the driver/control electronics board and associated software. Pick a platform which provides the right basic hardware and go to town.I haven't really followed the market since my 15 year old inkjet is still plugging along, but at least a few of the chipped cartridges merely report a full signal to the printer controller which then refuses to go on. Your Open Source controller can easily ignore this. If newer implementations actually shut down something within the print head it is likely that a little surgery can bypass this far easier than trying to build a print head.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 04:11:39 am
content: It seems like it might be easier to focus on hacking the protection mechanisms, and maybe see about getting a law passed to prohibit this sort of locking out aftermarket cartridges. I'd much rather see relatively expensive printers that don't go into the landfill after a year than the current situation.

author: mac.6
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 03:14:42 pm
content: why bother?Use well known printer (like the good old R1800 R2400 line), use a continuous ink system and voila, you have your low cost printer.Well there are caveats:- you need to do the plumbing, deal with bubbles in lines, maintain ink level, all the time.- you need to print very often, like once a day at least, or clogs will happens.- it's dirty, expect some spills when refilling.- third party ink have their share of issues: non deep black, metamerism.Well I defined why I stop bothering setup a cis for my printer, too much maintenance and cost reduction is only for heavy users.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 03:17:57 pm
content: i still use dot matrix ribbons...

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 04:01:03 pm
content: Just go into the business/competition of making the 'paint jet Continuous Ink Supply adapter kits'. It's all just plastic containers, tubing, and a PIC micro with software to emulate the cartridge eeprom so the printer thinks it never empties.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 04:07:20 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on April 03, 2018, 03:17:57 pm<shuddering>I used to occasionally repair OKI Microline 320 dot matrix printers on my last job. I HATED working on them. Plus the environment, Rinker Cement Company, was awful. I would leave the site covered in cement dust. Nice for going on to my next service calls. I was grateful for the fact that they were very reliable, even in adverse conditions. Thankfully, they are a dim and distant memory. Amazing that they are still available new and how much they cost. For the price of the above, I bought my Epson WF 3540 and Brother HL-L5100DN.Most of my printing nowadays is done on the Brother laser printer. I very rarely have to print color and use the Epson very sparingly but it always just prints, no jams or clogs. Guess I am a fortunate son.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 04:14:59 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on April 03, 2018, 03:17:57 pmWhere do you buy those? I switched to laser over 25 years ago.More on topic: I don't get why people still buy inkjet while complaining about the cost of ink. Buy a color laserprinter! Also because (IMHO) inkjet sucks. I tried two HP inkjet printers because my wife & kids wanted to print in color but both went into the trash because the nozzles where always clogged up.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 04:24:44 pm
content: For some things dot matrix is the only way for legal reasons. That's why they are still around. E.g. I remember that the protocols about the mandatory car inspection in Slovakia used to be printed on a self copy paper where one copy was kept by the inspection station doing the check and the other copy was given to the client. And only a dot matrix printer can handle such paper.(No, the obvious solution of printing the sheet 2x doesn't work - the idea of this was that you couldn't easily tamper with it, i.e. make the two copies not match).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 04:32:23 pm
content: While it's true that dot matrix is reliable and consumables are cheap, I sure don't miss that racket they make when printing. I remember piling pillows in front of the printer to muffle it as it printed banners.

author: GreggD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 05:11:53 pm
content: I have a Canon MX892. Does it all.I get great ink for $0.79/color from Meritline.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 06:07:37 pm
content: Epsonink tankprinters ended "cartridge scam" era long ago.https://www.epson.eu/for-home/ink-tank-system. Even original Epson black ink bottle (such as T664120 ) beats laserjet cartridge price, not to mention "compatible" 3rd party bulk ink.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 06:45:09 pm
content: The thing I like about my laser printer, aside from the nice sharp text that doesn't bleed on thin paper is that I can neglect it for months and then fire it up and it prints perfectly. I've owned quite a few different inkjet printers and since I print rather infrequently they would almost always be clogged and waste a bunch of ink cleaning if that even succeeded.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 07:33:01 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2018, 06:45:09 pmRight. That's unfortunate. You shall print something that needs every color of your inkjet once per week or two.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 07:33:59 pm
content: Color laser printers can't print photos.If you had an open source inkjet printer, you could configure automatic head cleaning to suit your usage pattern.You could also equip it with a real waste ink tank, instead of a sponge.

author: sstepane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 07:46:35 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on April 03, 2018, 07:33:59 pmI see no reason why You can't do it with Epson. Even more, I've seen installed tanks for waste ink and lots of installed ink feeding systems. In my country is almost a must for a new Epson or Canon printer.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 08:15:23 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on April 03, 2018, 07:33:59 pmThey can. But results are QuoteBetter just "waste print" one page of paper than do cleaning sequence. You can make PC software solution for most USB inkjet printers, no need to build own printerIMHO some WiFi printers can wake-up on print job as well. I will investigate what I can do with my wi-fi connected epson in this regard. After all PC software can simply remind that it is time to print your "inkjet head exersizer" and suggest to power-on printer, check paper before pressing "OK button". That's it.QuoteI better just buy epson I can rely-on and equip it with aftermarket waste ink kit.To build open source printer, first thing you need is head and ink. Both reliable and repeatable for years to come. Where supposedly you will get them?

author: Lukas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 08:59:06 pm
content: Someone did something similar recently:https://hackaday.io/project/86954/logsRipping the electronics part out of a off-the-shelf inkjet printer and replacing them with something open source would be a rather interesting and educational exercise (certainly within the realm of possibility)

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 10:48:56 pm
content: Quote from: Lukas on April 03, 2018, 08:59:06 pmEducational exercise, and only. I hate to destroy dreams, but just proper head driving to get droplet size and timing right is literally art & science combined together. Leading manufacturers burned lot of money and engineering hours to get inks, heads and drive waveforms work together well. I doubt that open source approach can get even close.If you want to print a lot - just buybulk ink printerfor as low as230$180$, don't build it. As simple as that.https://epson.com/For-Home/Printers/Inkjet/Epson-Expression-ET-2600-EcoTank-All-in-One-Printer/p/C11CF46201https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/products/details/printers/megatank-inkjet-printers/all-megatank-inkjet-printers/g1200

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 03:40:23 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on April 03, 2018, 02:29:15 amHP and Canon’s thermal inkjet printheads from the late 1980s were already being manufactured on silicon. (The 1984 HP ThinkJet was the only one of their inkjets, to my knowledge, whose head was “merely” manufactured using photolithography of thin-film resistors, but not on silicon with integrated drive transistors as all the later ones have.)The HP Journal archives have a bunch of articles about their early inkjet endeavors (do a google site search on here, I posted a list of specific links a while back). It’s amazing what all went into it: photolithography and semiconductor engineering for the heads, EE for the driver circuitry, chemistry and physics for ink and ink delivery, mechanical engineering for the paper handling and carriage, collaboration with paper mills worldwide to achieve paper and ink compatibility, and software engineering for the drivers, including core algorithms for dithering, etc.It’s a monumental endeavor far beyond what any open source effort could accomplish.Indeed, a sensible approach would be to buy heads from HP/Canon/Epson that they sell for industrial printing, and build a printer around them. Even so, a ton of IMHO wasted effort, since the heads are but one aspect...

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 04:33:18 pm
content: Too bad I'm not actually related to the cement people - but it made for an interesting photo, the huge silos in Ft Lauderdale near the cruise ship pier with my name in giant letters.Regardless of the type of printing - they don;t make them like they used to. I used to have an old HP Series 2, we used it for a while in the office but then loaned it to a client. That client made pigments with iron oxide. You think the cement dust got on everything? EVERYTHING in this area was reddish-orange. Could have used it for a Mars set. Combined with them having the printer sitting by a window, the plastic was both yellowed (in a line diagonally across where the light fell), PLUS red tinted from the rust. They've been shut down for years now and that part of town still looks like Mars. When I got the printer, it squeaked horribly (rust in all the gears and mechanicals), yet it printed reliably, all the time. No jams.I switched from ink jet to laser a couple of years ago. I print so little that most ink cartridges dried out rather than ran out, and it's way too expensive. With lasers it doesn't matter if a month goes by between prints, the toner doesn't dry up like ink. Never again will I have an inkjet, even the new style like the Epson (which is kind of how the first inkjet printers were - full circle).

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 05:03:20 pm
content: I just print at work. Does that count? In the rare occasion I need something printed at home, there is a local shop, that charges outrageous 0.5EUR/page for small prints. Still better than having a printer at home. Because the reasons in the video.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 02:45:18 am
content: Epson piezo head waveforms can be found in a patent (probably expired now), they're not that difficult to drive and others have repurposed them for printing other fluids. I've posted some information here before:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/hacking-an-inkjet-printhead/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/ink-jet-print-head-does-orientation-matter/Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2018, 06:45:09 pmIn dry climates, laser printers are fine but inkjets clog.In humid climates, laser printer toner clumps while inkjets are fine.This is why inkjets and CIS are far more popular than lasers in Southeast Asia.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 02:52:25 am
content: whoops, forgot I posted here.I actually don't print a whole lot, so I haven't run out of ribbons yet (this printer used to be my dad's) however if I ran out, I would either try to refill it myself (as ribbons aren't too hard to refill iirc) or just find the cheapest compatible replacement.It works great for text (which is all I use it for) and minor graphics. The noise doesn't really bother me because (as I said) I don't print much.If I had to print a photo, I would get a company to do it for me. I've never printed photos, because I don't tend to hang them up on a wall (or take any to begin with) because I am a strange cave cretin with no real life friends.As stated, the reason I like it is because it's simple and reliable. There is no ink monitoring, nothing gets lost in print, and it hasn't jammed on me yet. It's faster than my old inkjet (which wasn't hard to do) when doing quick text. It's an Epson LQ-570+ with support for the ESC/P2 standard (which doesn't want to work with my desktop machine, but oh well, that's what old computers are for).

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 03:09:15 am
content: Quote from: amyk on April 05, 2018, 02:45:18 am+1 , my Epson inkjets usually never had serious clogging problems, and if any, I just do a single pass of internal head cleaning will clear "all" cloggings.I'm talking about printer that never turned on for 1 or 2 months.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 08:25:20 am
content: Quote from: amyk on April 05, 2018, 02:45:18 amAnyway it does not solve much. There's loads of other problems which works against low cost DIY bulk ink-capable inkjet. Whole idea of economically viable Open Source Inkjet Printer is just naiive dreaming. Sorry to repeat - it is impossible to beat existing bulk ink printer offerings unless you are hp, epson or canon.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 09:26:00 am
content: Quote from: ogden on April 05, 2018, 08:25:20 amsorry. its true for consumer grade cheap printing arena. but you havent been in large format or mass volume printing business...

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 10:08:47 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on April 05, 2018, 09:26:00 amRight. You want to depend your mass volume business on open source DIY printer. Seems, you havent been in *any* business

author: MyHeadHz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 09:59:51 am
content: Well, open-source hardware would be one option, but I don't see the point because of printers like the Epson EcoTank series. Instead of selling loss-making subsidizing printers with what is effectively DRM and other annoyances to make a profit off the ink, they make higher-quality printers with commercial print heads and no DRM on the ink. The overall design is a higher quality overall, and you can use whatever ink you want. The heads are nice quality and they can be cleaned if needed.Overall, they take away pretty much all of the downsides. They are more expensive up front, but you are really just paying for what the printer actually costs to make with a bit of profit. That is exactly what you would do with an open platform anyway. The people I know who use them all love them, though I've only heard about the Epson systems. There are probably others if you look.And the Epson ones start in the $200-$300 range, which is not much of a premium over the traditional printers. Wince the ink is cheaper, many people may be buying the branded ink instead of using other sources.It would be possible, but there would be a tremendous amount of work for very little potential gain.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 10:10:14 am
content: No matter what other considerations, the main issue with inkjets is that the printout is nonpermanent. It smudges in the rain so is unsuitable for shipping labels, and fades over time in sunlight (even through glass) so is unsuitable for wall notices. Business letters printed on an inkjet are instantly recognisable and give the impression of a two-bit outfit who can't afford a proper (Laser) printer.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 10:57:53 am
content: Quote from: MyHeadHz on April 06, 2018, 09:59:51 amOpen sourcesoftwarewould be a good enough improvement, given how horrible most printer drivers are and how much ink the stock firmware wastes... not to mention the secret tracking dots they put in everything (look this up for yourself if you don't believe me.)

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 03:05:26 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on April 06, 2018, 10:10:14 amPerhaps you talk about your 100$ ink (dye) printer.. Ever heard of UV curable ink for outdoor applications? Ever heard of archival pigment inks for photography?BTW all outdoor advertising banners are printed on inkjet printers, not color laserjets

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 03:07:43 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on April 06, 2018, 03:05:26 pmFor even greater durability, lots of ceramic tiles are ink-jet printed these days.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 05:15:15 pm
content: I worked for an industrial inkjet printer manufacturer over a decade ago , it was quite interesting.Every new head they used also meant they needed a different matching ink. So to go OS and if you would get brand A to deliver 100000 generic inkjet heads you still are bond to some inkmanufacturer brand B that will create and sell you the special mix of ink that matches that head.You would still have a brand A and brand B monopoly on your "open source" printer.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 08:59:16 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 03, 2018, 01:53:58 amI do that all day long, what you also can do is to use different toner cassettes from different Brother machinesall thats needed is to cut away some plastics tabs on the sides and you will be fine to go.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 09:09:00 pm
content: I avoid Brother because the toner has a much higher melting point and doesn't work well for toner transfer PCB etching. That's a bit of a niche use though.Speaking of that, it sure would be nice if someone made a laser printer that could directly print toner resist on copper clad. I'd take that any day over the various PCB milling machines. Sure I can have boards made in China, but sometimes it's nice to be able to have one in my hands in an hour instead of weeks.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 11:14:22 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 06, 2018, 09:09:00 pmIt would be much better to have PCB-specialized inkjet printers or just ink sets - for etching, solder masks and silkskreens. Main problem to solve - precise and repeatable positioning. Most likely with registration marks/holes and small camera on the head carriage. I would not mind that PCB after printing is "wet" and needs few minutes of UV. Such kind of specialized products are where open source solutions have chances.BTW nowadays many professional PCB (small-batch prototyping) houses happen to use inkjet printers for direct-print solder masks and silkskreens.p.s. Luckily I don't have to struggle with "right" laser printer and laminator

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 11:46:23 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on April 04, 2018, 05:03:20 pmTHIS ! This is the way you live peaceful life when nobody bothers you with printing requests.I can't remember the last time I printed something for private purposes.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2018, 03:18:42 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on April 06, 2018, 10:10:14 amMan, is your knowledge outdated!I am 100% certain that you’ve handled inkjet-printed materials and didn’t even realize it. From correspondence, to labels, to cables (all that dot-matrix printing on an Ethernet cable, the stuff that cannot rub off when being fished through walls, for example? Inkjet.), books, packaging... you name it, it’s being done with inkjet these days. Inkjet is actually taking over as the dominant way of printing patterns on fabric, even!The cheapest home inkjets suffer from the limitations you mention. Industrial inkjet does not. (Nor even better consumer models.) You can get industrial inkjets with damned near any ink you need, for any substrate you need, for any volume or size you need. (Piezo inkjet heads can eject nearly any liquid medium, hence things like the UV-cured lacquers or tile glazes.)And if your impression of inkjet correspondence is that of, for example, telecom bills... well remember that their priority is speed and cost, not absolute print quality. Remember that inkjets are now also the printers with the absolute highest print quality for color (with proper matching of inks and papers). Nothing (yet) beats top-quality offset lithography for text sharpness. But high-speed inkjet already produces output better than a newspaper, for example.I suggest you look at HP’s commercial and industrial inkjet videos on youtube. It’s absolutely fascinating what they are doing these days — and that’s just HP!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 12:27:38 am
content: Industrial inket is not really relevant here since the discussion is centered around consumer/domestic printers. What he said about inkjet still generally applies to those. They print nice photos but they certainly do smudge when wet.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 12:41:25 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 08, 2018, 12:27:38 amIn case you read topic of this discussion, it states "we need Open Source Inkjet Printers". No consumer/domestic printers mentioned.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 12:48:58 am
content: That need was due to the silly practices of selling printers as loss leaders and then locking down the overpriced ink cartridges to make the profit there. As far as I know the industrial printers don't use that business model.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:00:42 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 08, 2018, 12:48:58 amOh, whatta revelation. You either profit from machine or materials.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:03:59 am
content: So profit from the machine. It's ridiculous to artificially jack up the cost of consumables by adding technology that does nothing but prevent the use of aftermarket ink. It leads to cheap disposable printers that go into the landfill because it's cheaper to buy a whole new printer than it is to buy a set of cartridges in some cases.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 08:26:14 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 08, 2018, 12:48:58 amYeah. But depending on the type, they still use locked-down cartridges. Larger cartridges with somewhat less extortionary per-ml costs, but not necessarily bulk ink. Depends on the application. Some will use cartridges, others will use permanent (or semi-permanent) heads and bulk ink feeders.The thing is, the ink formulations for many applications are often so incredibly specific that you are still locked into one manufacturer for ink, if you expect to have any consistency in print quality, durability, etc.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 12:55:21 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 08, 2018, 01:03:59 amThe manufacturers go where the market leads them. There used to be more expensive printers with cheaper consumables. They disappeared, because the market keeps going for the cheapest startup cost. Everyone says they want cheaper consumables, but when it comes to opening their wallets, the majority support the opposite approach.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 04:49:59 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 08, 2018, 12:55:21 pmThat's because most people have absolutely horrid financial sense and are either unable or unwilling to look at the bigger picture. I don't know if it's as bad in the rest of the world but Americans are notoriously terrible at that sort of thing. The average credit card debt is appalling, people only look at the up front cost as in what it will add to their monthly payment, completely ignoring the total cost of purchasing something. It screws those of us who are long term bigger picture thinkers.

author: ixfd64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2019, 06:57:26 pm
content: Sorry for bumping this, but I'm also surprised we still don't have a viable open source 2D printer. I can think of at least three reasons we should:1. The cartridge monopoly as OP said.2. Certain printers add tracking dots that can make documents traceable:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Identification_CodeThis poses privacy concerns and can even threaten confidential information.3. Many printers also don't allow currency to be printed, ostensibly to prevent counterfeits. While I don't support illegal activities, this is a matter of principle: products should not be telling users what they can and cannot do. What's to prevent printer manufacturers from adding more restrictions in the future for "copyright" reasons?Quote from: ogden on April 03, 2018, 10:48:56 pmI've noticed there are many printers on the market that are open source, though. Do 3D printers somehow require less precision than 2D ones?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2019, 07:45:18 pm
content: Quote from: ixfd64 on May 04, 2019, 06:57:26 pm3D printer heads are just stupid heated extruders. You can even make them at home. Ink printer print heads are complex devices impossible to manufacture without huge investment. Why do you think there are no aftermarket clones?QuoteBuy refillable printer.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2019, 08:19:53 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 08, 2018, 12:55:21 pmSeems we are going round in circles here. As ogden pointed out on the first page of this thread, inkjet printers with a realistic, non-subsidized price tag and with reasonable prices forbottledink are still being offered. Epson makes a whole range of "EcoTank" printers, and Canon has a similar range of "MegaTank" printers.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2019, 08:52:57 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 04, 2019, 08:19:53 pmUnfortunately there aren't any photo printers like that (6-8 ink).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2019, 09:15:40 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 04, 2019, 08:19:53 pmStill being offered? As far as I know they completely disappeared and have only emerged again in response to the broad availability of third party ink tank add ons for cheap printers.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2019, 09:16:32 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on May 04, 2019, 08:52:57 pmYou can get 3rd partyCIS kitsfor select Epson photo printers. Unless 3rd party ink manufacturer can supply ICC color profile for your printer model, for each batch of the ink manufactured, it is not worth it.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2019, 11:21:08 pm
content: Quote from: ixfd64 on May 04, 2019, 06:57:26 pmBS. It is simply not economical to develop both a printing headanda cartridgeandthe ecosystem to supply the ink for your printer.Quote from: ixfd64 on May 04, 2019, 06:57:26 pmYou are way too much paranoid and are ignoring the elephant in the room - which is the costs (both engineering & production). HP, Lexmark and similar can afford to sell the printers for 80 bucks because they are both selling them in huge quantities and making a killing on the ink. You won't be able to produce neither for their costs.If the entire idea of an open source inkjet is to deliver a cheaper printer/ink than e.g. Epson, HP or Lexmark, then you are seriously delusional about the costs of building the hw, especially in small quantities.Apply Occam's razor not some monopoly/government conspiracy paranoia.Oh and there is an open source inkjet, if you actually want to build one (there are tons of similar projects - driving an inkjet head is not that difficult, making one is a different story!):https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8542Of course, if you want to print your photos then it may need some work ...(oh and a sane person who doesn't print photos at home and can actually do some basic math won't buy an inkjet but uses a laser printer ... )

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2019, 06:40:47 am
content: Quote from: ixfd64 on May 04, 2019, 06:57:26 pmAs I suggested in my comment a year ago earlier in this thread, read the articles in the HP Journal archive about the development of their inkjets. I think you'd quickly realize why nobody has done this.It took man-decades of work to merely get anything on the page. Probably man-centuries to get us where we are now, with cheap printers that produce great output on plain paper. But to get us here took enormous amounts of coordinated work in mechanical, electrical, chemical, and software engineering (and convincing paper companies tochange how paper is madeto make it a bit more inkjet-friendly). There's no way for open source to really replicate this, certainly not without a HUGE number of people, but given that printers largely work well, and cost very little, I don't think it's a huge sore spot for most people.Quote from: ixfd64 on May 04, 2019, 06:57:26 pmIt's comparatively pointless to ask why weshoulddo it. What's salient are the reasons why nobodyhas.Quote from: ixfd64 on May 04, 2019, 06:57:26 pmWell, it's not so much that they don't "require" it so much as right now, home 3D printing is limited to very low-resolution applications due to cost and practicality. High-resolution 3D printing does exist, but it'sspectacularlyexpensive because it cannot be achieved with the glorified hot-melt glue gun plotters that are the common consumer 3D printers.It's very much like how 2D printing was 40 years ago: sure, publishers had access to high-resolution output. But at home, you had a 9-pin dot matrix printer (24 pins if you were loaded!). Even the laser printer, while a massive improvement over the dot matrix, didn't really approach press quality until many years later. (For context, dot matrix printers were usually 180dpi in their highest quality mode, early laser was 300dpi, later 600dpi, while offset printing was already at the 2450dpi still used today.)

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2019, 07:21:38 am
content: Quote from: coppice on May 04, 2019, 09:15:40 pmyes its being re-emerged. after cartridge monopoly attempt failed miserably due to 3rd party ink.Quote from: edavid on May 04, 2019, 08:52:57 pmEpson L1800 A3 6 colorsis one. its my main workhorse for 12R (A3) photos. i'm not sure about Canon (i've abandoned the brand long time ago) or other Epson's models i dont own everyone of them. but i think other brands like Canon should come up with a competition. but its a wonderful time thats there is no need for 3rd party ink anymore since original ink are competitively cheap right now. my condolences to 3rd party. ps: there is no stopping you from modding your cheap 4 colors printer into a decent grade photo printer, with the right tools/accesorries, ink type and photo papers, its perfectly/easily doable, ymmv.Quote from: janoc on May 04, 2019, 11:21:08 pmbe my guest...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/hacking-an-inkjet-printhead/https://ytec3d.com/forums/topic/step-1-hacking-the-cn642a-inkjet-printhead/http://www.piclist.com/techref/pcb/etch/custom-vs.htm

author: ixfd64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2019, 09:31:11 pm
content: I'll have to admit that I had no idea inkjet printers were so complicated. So we're probably still a long ways away from having open source printers that can compete with their commercial counterparts. That being the case, I'm surprised there aren't many people hacking printer firmware either. It's a little sad that people would ratherplayDoom(as awesome as that is) rather than give users complete freedom. Even though there currently isn't much demand for custom printer firmware, you'd think more people would be interested in hacking them simply "because we can."

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 12:31:28 am
content: I doubt we will ever see open source printers that can compete with off the shelf models, they have just become too refined and work incredibly well for how ridiculously cheap they are. There are people hacking around DRM encumbered consumables but other than that what are you going to hack? My laser printer was under $300, works very well, prints quite nice full color graphics and photos on both sides of the paper, I can't think of any features I'd want to hack it for even if I could.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 03:20:45 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 05, 2019, 07:21:38 amFor some reason that model is not available in the US. Also, it seems to cost $1000

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 05:05:09 am
content: Here it was around usd500 iirc last time i bought it 3-4 years ago.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 11:35:56 am
content: Quote from: edavid on May 06, 2019, 03:20:45 amIt costs EUR 560 Here. If comparing average prices on electronics in EU and US, It should be <$500 in US.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 12:27:26 pm
content: Quote from: ixfd64 on May 05, 2019, 09:31:11 pmThere are "minor" hacks like fooling the sensors to allow the mechanisms to be hacked to use weird media. (For example, direct inkjet and laser printing onto PCBs.) But even hacks like that are often thwarted by the fact that most home printers don't actually have discrete printer mechanisms at all; the bottom housing often is part of the print engine itself! (This has been the case with inkjets longer than with laser, but it's now ubiquitous.) So if you want to hack yourself a printer to print onto heavy cardboard or t-shirts or whatnot, you're extremely limited in what you can do. (There are, however, industrial printers that can do all that.)Indeed, "because we can" is the most compelling reason for custom firmware, but I guess it's just not trivial, either. It's really, really rare to see firmware updates for printers, for example. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that most firmware hacks rely on having a copy of the firmware to start with, typically from a firmware update file.)As an aside, what I find amazing is how inkjet went from the technology used in "I can't afford laser or dye-sublimation, so I'll have to settle for this" printers to being the go-to technology for art prints, and now for volume custom printing (like utility bills), and now for color book printing. HP makes continuous web inkjet printers that print several meters per second of paper 2 feet wide, at 1200dpi using 8-color print heads that span the entire width of the paper. I did some back of the napkin math once and calculated it at being something like 7GB of data per second going into that printhead. (And unlike home printers, these can't stop for cleaning every few minutes, so they actually have redundant nozzles, and a sensor monitors the nozzles and automatically switches out a working one if need be.) They can do things like using two "colors" for coatings, one to go below the ink, and another on top for gloss, to allow cheap paper to produce great output. Pretty cool stuff IMHO.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 03:47:01 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on April 03, 2018, 03:00:22 amThis. I gave up on inkjet printers. I print infrequently enough that I was just wasting cartridges as they dried up and clogged between prints. With a laser printer, it doesn't matter if I print 100 pages a day or one page every 100 days, I still get the full use of each and every toner cartridge. Without daily printing, the laser approach is MUCH better, and much more economical.The new Epson designs is more or less a return to the way the first inkjet printers were - the head did not get replaces every time you refilled the ink, the ink was separate. Remember the original Canon BubbleJet? And the later color one - I remember Radio Shack used to sell one, not sure if it was a Canon or Epson OEM, but the color ink cartridges went in a compartment alongside the mechanism and there were flexible hoses. The ink was fairly cheap because it was just a plastic bottle with ink, not a complex high precision printhead. I don't recall a limited printhead life - I think HP only invented a solution to a problem that didn't exist simply to make more money on the ink.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 04:56:00 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on May 06, 2019, 03:47:01 pmOnly HP uses the printhead in the ink cartridge design. Brother, Canon, Epson do not, but their OEM ink is not all that cheaper than HP.HP's OfficeJet Pro line does have separate printheads (and seems to be prone to printhead clogging).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 04:59:58 pm
content: That's what made me switch to laser too, I don't print all that often so I'd buy a new cartridge, print a half dozen pages and then a month later I'd try to print something and find it all clogged up or dried out. Laser is perfect for that, I often go weeks or months without printing anything and then when I do it's ready to go.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 05:01:38 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on May 06, 2019, 04:56:00 pmDunno about Epson but Canon has cartridges with build in printhead and only 3ml of ink per color. "Large" capacity cartridges have whopping 5 ml per color.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 05:05:59 pm
content: From an open source point of view, it would probably be more realistic and easy to do an open source LED laser printer...LEDs are becoming tiny enough and in quantities easy to source by anyone that you could make the 100dpi or maybe even 300dpi, good enough for printing black text.Black toner can be easily bought from loads of places... all that's left is the drum mechanism and the laser which shouldn't be as hard to make as inkjet nozzles and micro things to squirt droplets of ink.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 05:08:15 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 06, 2019, 04:59:58 pmThere's a limit to this, since eventually the toner cartridge seals dry out and start leaking. Much more of a problem if you live in a dry climate, and/or if you're like me and buy NOS cartridges for your elderly laser printers.Quote from: wraper on May 06, 2019, 05:01:38 pmOops, didn't know about that one (MP280?). Seems like the exception for Canon though.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 05:20:07 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on May 06, 2019, 05:08:15 pmIt's a big range from several series, standard version cartridges CL-38, PG-37. Some older models Like IP1700 had those "large capacity" cartridges (CL-41, PG-40) as standard + actual (not so) large capacity cartridges (CL-51, PG-50). When new models came out, they halved capacity of standard cartridge, called standard as large, and made actual large capacity cartridges not supported.Models with those:PIXMA MP450x PIXMA iP1200 PIXMA MP470 PIXMA MP460 PIXMA MP450 PIXMA MP220 PIXMA MP210 PIXMA MP190 PIXMA MP180 PIXMA MP170 PIXMA MP160 PIXMA MP150 PIXMA MP140 PIXMA iP1300 PIXMA iP2500 PIXMA iP2600 PIXMA iP1600 PIXMA iP1700 PIXMA iP1800 PIXMA iP1900 PIXMA iP2200Recent models have CL-546 (2.5 mL per color) and PG-545 cartridges with print head. Printers:PIXMA iP2850 PIXMA MG3052 PIXMA MG3053 PIXMA MG3051 PIXMA MG3050 PIXMA MG2550S PIXMA MG2950 PIXMA MX495 PIXMA MG2550 PIXMA MG2450 PIXMA TS3150 PIXMA TS3151 PIXMA TS 205 PIXMA TS305 PIXMA TR4550 PIXMA TR4551There is also XL version of cartridges but not all of those models support them.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 06:13:34 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 06, 2019, 05:20:07 pmInteresting, those models are not sold in the US. Conflict with HP patents?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 06:19:20 pm
content: Quote from: Ampera on April 03, 2018, 03:17:57 pmhumbug. nothing beats hammer and chisel in granite. Been around for millenia. There are thousand year old examples. Virtually indestructible ( barring any earthquakes)rock solid.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 06:27:10 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 04, 2019, 09:15:40 pmA quick look says that Epson is still selling the Eco-Tank printers and you have a choice of OEM and 3rd party refill kits. I have never not seen them in stores since they came out. It is an attractive option but I use my Epson workforce all in one so little for printing, it isn't worth upgrading. Everything is pretty much exclusively laser printed unless color is what is desired.Quote from: free_electron on May 06, 2019, 06:19:20 pmIt's only an issue when you make a mistake. Hopefully, it's not at the bottom of the slab, that would honk me off.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 07:34:46 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on May 06, 2019, 06:13:34 pmThere are different models with PG-245 and CL-246 cartridges. Seems they decided to make printers/cartridges bind to region.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 12:53:22 am
content: Quote from: rrinker on May 06, 2019, 03:47:01 pmYep, for infrequent use, inkjet is really not suitable. Just using it once a week is enough to keep things sensible, but (depending on the model) any less can result in using more ink to clean than ends up on the paper...Quote from: rrinker on May 06, 2019, 03:47:01 pmWell, the first HP inkjet (which preceded the Canon by a year) was the ThinkJet, and it used a disposable print head. I can't find anything about Canon's first model (the Bubble Jet BJ-80) other than its name (Google searches get totally polluted by people who miswrote the much later BJC-80 model without the C). But the one you're probably thinking of was this one:https://www.thenimbus.co.uk/nimbus-parts-list/colourjetIt does indeed seem to use just tanks. Canon then released the BJ-10, which used a disposable head design. Ever since, Canon has always had both types available. (Integrated head in cheap models, separate head in more expensive ones.)I suggest to you as well to read up in the HP Journal archives on the development of the inkjet. They had some damned good reasons for initially going with disposable heads. (And given their trivial cost, it wasn't a big deal.)Quote from: edavid on May 06, 2019, 04:56:00 pmNonsense. The only brand toneveruse disposable heads is Epson, because their piezo print heads are comparatively expensive to make. Every other brand either had, or still does have, have models with disposable heads. HP and Canon do both, with cheaper models using disposable heads. I don't think Lexmark ever made ones without disposable heads.Quote from: edavid on May 06, 2019, 06:13:34 pmNope. Canon just uses different numbering for different regions. (Insanely pointless IMHO, but there it is...) The printers have the same fundamental model numbers, but the cartridges have the 2 or 5 prefix depending on region.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 01:16:10 am
content: IMO there is no reason to use inkjet printers anymore they are archaic technology. Dot matrix printers have their use where impact is required (ex: anything with carbon copy) and where you need continuous feed, while for ordinary printing, laserjet beats ink/bubble jet at everything. They are faster, they are cheaper to operate, the ink (toner) does not go bad, the quality is better, and more crisp, etc...Even color laserjet printers are super cheap now. I remember when my high school got one and it was considered a huge deal, and it was a special privilege to get to print to it. Now you can buy one for under a grand. I'm not sure what the quality of consumer grade ones is like mind you. The one we got at our school would have been a commercial grade unit but that was also close to 20 years ago. (I feel old now) Even SOHO/semi professional ones arn't too bad, maybe a bit over a grand.I kinda want to get one at some point, I like the idea of being able to make fancy color prints at home. Maybe even print out face plates for projects and find a clean way to glue it on. Or even safety signs for around the lab/server room for fun. Lot of potentials being able to do high quality color prints at home.Of course the super high end photo printers are inkjet and will be better but I'm comparing SOHO stuff here. In these cases laserjet always wins.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 01:56:10 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 07, 2019, 01:16:10 amThere are many words one could use to describe inkjet, but "archaic" is not one of them. It's in wider use than ever, having expanded well beyond the low-end home market, displacing essentially every other technology for large-format printing (like banners and huge photographs), and now encroaching on digital offset. It's displaced laser and dot matrix for mass custom mailings like utility bills. Some inkjets are displacing even office laser printers.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 07, 2019, 01:16:10 amNo, actually inkjet can be faster than laser, and cheaper, too. As the cost of laser printers has come down, the cost of toner has gone up dramatically, to the point that the cheapest-to-operate office printers now are inkjet, not laser. They're office models that use large bottles of ink.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 07, 2019, 01:16:10 amHeheh I remember that, too!Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 07, 2019, 01:16:10 amA grand? Try $100. But of course the toner costs for those are at least as high as on a $100 inkjet.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 07, 2019, 01:16:10 amLike any laser: awesome for text, very good for color graphics, so-so for photos.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 07, 2019, 01:16:10 amWell, many of us have done that kind of thing with color printers (be they laser or inkjet) for years and years now... I've had a color printer at home since 1994-95 or so.What I would LOVE to see move into the home market (from the industrial market to which it's currently limited) is UV-cure lacquer inkjet. Those things print tough lacquer onto nearly any surface, and would be AMAZING for doing front panels and the like.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 07, 2019, 01:16:10 amNo, it doesn't. Inkjet will pretty much always beat laser in color. (Both require high quality paper for that.) Each type of printer has its pros and cons, so for some situations one will be better than the other. There's no one answer.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 12:03:46 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on May 07, 2019, 01:56:10 amInkJet beats SOHO B&W as well. Epson *original* T664 70ml black ink for75004500 page yield: 12.5$. I do not see how SOHO LaserJet *original* supplies can be any cheaper than that.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 03:06:41 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on May 07, 2019, 12:03:46 pmOnly IF you print in enough volume to actually get close to that yield. Inkjet always fails for occasional printing, more is wasted on cleaning cycles and you never get close to that kind of yield - if you are able to use the full ink capacity and it doesn't dry out in the cartridge before it's all used up. Print frequently, on a daily basis, and I may agree. Print occasionally, and the waste factor is insanely high.Actually - the BEST color printers were those good old Tek dye sublimation ones. Let's not talk about cost per page. We had one of those at the company I worked for over 25 years ago. Amazing photo quality output. They were touchy though, we were always fixing it. I think it was on the orders of dollars per page. And the best thing we had for making overheads - one of those wax printers, I think that was a Tek product as well. Very thoughtful design, not only was each stick a unique color, they also had unique shapes so even if you were colorblind you could put the 3 colors plus black int he correct slots when refilling it. It was weird on paper, and you could scratch the printing off, but for transparencies for the overhead project t the color was phenomenal. Very much a stained glass effect. They had a fairly high waste ratio as well, there was a waste wax drawer you had to empty periodically as it built up with the excess. And startup time for first page from power on seemed like forever as it had to melt the wax.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 03:37:21 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on May 07, 2019, 12:03:46 pmWell, that's the 4500 page cartridge, but even so your point stands!!The German computer magazien C't didan article(paywall, sorry!) about black and white office printers a few months ago, and the hands-down lowest page cost is an Epson inkjet.Quote from: rrinker on May 07, 2019, 03:06:41 pmIt depends on how "occasional" it is, really. As I said in a prior comment, usually printing once a week is enough to prevent needing any wasteful deep cleaning.Quote from: rrinker on May 07, 2019, 03:06:41 pmWell, great for photos, but not so great for graphics. I think modern photo inkjets exceed the color quality of those dye-sub printers, while providing better sharpness.Quote from: rrinker on May 07, 2019, 03:06:41 pmThose were the Tektronix, later Xerox, Phaser models, towards the end the 8000 series. (Other Phaser models are laser.) They were neat in many ways. And yeah, they were good for transparency, but (aqueous dye) inkjet is better, frankly. Transparencies are really the thing where color laser sucks, because the pigments in the toner block light without coloring it, so your lovely transparency that looks like color simply projects as black-and-white! Dye inkjet looks amazing.Quote from: rrinker on May 07, 2019, 03:06:41 pm"Fairly high" is an understatement. The wax inkjets not only had to melt the wax, but the startup process usedinsaneamounts of ink. A single power up would use1/8 of a cube of inkof each color! So these printers only made sense for high-volume printing with little downtime, since you didn'teverwant to shut them down, but their idle energy use is quite high due to needing to keep the wax molten. (Around 50W.) Of course, these were priced out of the home market anyway, so they were really office workgroup printers.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 06:06:53 pm
content: QuoteI assume that's genuine refills and stuff... I bought a brother HL-2135w and "unlocked" refilling by buying a plastic gear and spring from eBay.Paid 17 UK pounds (~$25) for reset gear and 400g of toner (i think that was good for around 4-5 refills, 10k+ pages).Though I would probably have to pay ~100$ for new drum/toner assembly when i end up printing 10k+ pages, the original rated life is 10k pages.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 07:17:47 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on May 07, 2019, 06:06:53 pmYou can get crappy 3rd party ink for much less just as well.BTW, to fill Ecotank printers, you just fill container from the bottle. You don't even remove anything from printer. In your case, you need to take cartridge apart every time, remove waste toner, clean everything, fill, reassemble and only then put it back. Even filling all 5 ink cartridges in my Canon printer takes less time.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 12:30:23 am
content: Quote from: tooki on May 07, 2019, 01:56:10 amMaybe they changed a lot since last time I used them then since that has been far from my experience with all the ones I've used or worked with in some way or the other. Last time I used them, you did not get more than like 20 pages before the ink started to fade. If you didn't use it every day it would dry up and the cartridge would need to be replaced. Whether or not you used it, the heads would start to clog over time and the quality would be crap as it would start making lines and smears etc across as it printed. You'd normally just end up buying the cartridge that comes with the head too since you'd end up changing the head anyway. They were also super slow compared to laser. Laser takes more time to warm up but once it starts printing it's way more pages per minute. Overall I've always found inkjets a terrible experience and not just me personally but lot of people that have called me for help. Toners will last for years and thousands of pages under home/small office use. I remember when I lived with my parents and we originally had a bubblejet and we gave up using it as it was too expensive to run but when I went out to buy a laserjet then we used it a lot. My dad loved to print stuff and just told him he can print as much as he wants since it's so cheap per page.Though now that I think of it... is bubblejet and inkjet the same thing? I'm thinking more about bubblejet, they were crap mostly because of how the ink goes dry. But I always thought they were the same.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 01:04:35 am
content: “Bubblejet” was Canon’s brand in the 1990s, wasn’t it? So, no, I don‘t think the name refers to a fundamentally different technology than „inkjet“. But technology has moved on, by about 25 years, in the meantime.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 01:05:47 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 08, 2019, 12:30:23 amhttps://youtu.be/RAJY-x7v-Oc

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 01:15:19 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 08, 2019, 12:30:23 amNope, unless you buy quite expensive model. Cheap ones have the same funny business going with toner cartridges just as inkjet printers.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 02:00:40 am
content: Quote from: wraper on May 08, 2019, 01:05:47 amIs that seriously inkjet? How is that even possible? The entire cartridge/head has to move completely back and forth for each pixel line. How is it not shaking itself apart?All the ones I've seen work about as fast as dot matrix, as they are similar in how they have to operate.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 02:02:29 am
content: Quote from: wraper on May 08, 2019, 01:15:19 amThe toner I have in my current Brother Printer is the same one as when I moved into my house and that was close to 10 years ago. Of course you get what you pay for, this was no $100 printer, it was maybe a few hundred. Still cheap though.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 02:05:50 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 08, 2019, 02:00:40 amFull width printhead or multiple staggered printheads. In either case they are fixed position.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 02:12:12 am
content: Quote from: oPossum on May 08, 2019, 02:05:50 amInteresting... this is no consumer printer though right? I'm speaking about consumer printers here, like anything under a grand. Either way this one seems more like an exception to the rule. I'd also be curious how many prints you get and how long you can go without printing before it clogs. That is really the biggest issue with inkjet is how long the ink lasts, which is not very long.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 02:22:18 am
content: Business targeted printers.Epson's 329 mm page wide printhead.https://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/616494/epson-launches-new-high-speed-enterprise-inkjet-printer/

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 02:28:26 am
content: HP's page wide printhead.https://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/slideshow/597780/hp-new-sme-enterprise-printers-move-paper-ink/

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 11:12:54 am
content: Quote from: oPossum on May 08, 2019, 02:05:50 amFWIW even my $40 Canon ip2200 from more than 10 years ago years ago could do 19 pages per minute (B/W) at fast setting.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 11:22:13 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 08, 2019, 02:12:12 amIn intended use case it should never clog. Even in occasional home use inkjet printers usually clog because of crappy 3rd party ink. With original ink it most likely won't clog even if you don't print anything for half a year.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 12:58:36 pm
content: here in humid environment, clog usually is a misconception. the real issue is when air is introduced into the nozzle after prolonged idle, getting back ink into the nozzle (by "cleaning" or priming) need a bit of work and patient, but once the nozzles filled with ink, its good to go for continuous printing. even if its a true "clogged" there are ways in youtube how to fix that, people recovered inkjet heads after years of non-usage. if anyone swear by laser printer, try to operate one here. sitting here is a 4 years (iirc) brother laser B&W printer with spider (fungus?) marks on the drum since 3 weeks of purchase (during idle it developed those marks) try to clean that without damaging the drum is next to impossible.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 10:34:34 pm
content: Hmm yeah I can see humid environments being an issue for laser printers. They pretty much need to be dry all the time. And a humid environment would probably be good for inkjet.Maybe that's why I've always had issues with inkjet, it's not really humid here. I run a humidifier so I can keep it at around 15%, anything higher and windows frost up. In the summer months it goes higher, MAYBE 60 on a rainy day but generally it's not very humid. My laser printer is actually in the corner of my basement and it's fine.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 11:32:53 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 08, 2019, 10:34:34 pmWhen I lived in a super humid environment I didn'd find any problems with toner cartridges, but all the rubber bits in laser printers disintegrated quite quickly.

author: ixfd64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 04:19:19 am
content: Quote from: tooki on May 06, 2019, 12:27:26 pmAlthough hardware hacking isn't my domain, I'm under the impression that it's not too difficult to extract firmware from devices unless the manufacturer specifically put countermeasures in place:https://ianhowson.com/iot/extracting-firmware

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 08:26:03 am
content: Quote from: ixfd64 on May 09, 2019, 04:19:19 amWell, then learn more. Before you say that it is easy to build Saturn V rocket - become rocket scientist first.QuoteWhat good is binary firmware file if you don't have documentation of ASICS and other custom chips? You have to reverse engineer not only firmware but hardware as well. When you are done, target device most likely will be long gone - out of production &unobtainium. Hardly any consumer-class hardware hacking results in success with one well-known exception: WRT54G. Hope that manufacturer of device you are hacking will cooperate same way as Linksys did is just naiive wishful thinking.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 11:54:15 am
content: Quote from: ixfd64 on May 09, 2019, 04:19:19 am"I don't know anything about this, but it must be easy."Not an uncommon school of thought, but one rarely sees it worded so bluntly.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 12:00:29 pm
content: Quote from: ixfd64 on May 09, 2019, 04:19:19 amGraphical representation:

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 01:45:06 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on May 09, 2019, 08:26:03 amActually the WRT54G isn’t an example of reverse engineering at all. Its firmware was Linux based, so Linksys had to release the source code. (Later hardware revisions switched to a different hardware and software platform without Linux.)

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 02:31:45 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on May 09, 2019, 01:45:06 pmI did say "hacking"Whatever. You are right suggesting that WRT54G "hacking" (DD-WRT project) was successful only because most of it's source code became available due to Linux. It just confirms my point even more.QuoteRight. *After* unpopular move (to VxWorks & smaller RAM) they released WRT54GL "Linux-based open source" version which BTW is still in production andin stock.  Any consumer-grade inkjet printer from 2005 still in production?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 02:49:11 pm
content: Oh, I totally agree with you!! If not for the OSS firmware, the WRT54G would be just another forgotten consumer router, not the legend it became!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 03:08:11 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on May 09, 2019, 02:31:45 pmThat was not just unpopular move. Those were glitchy crap not doing their job properly.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 04:17:56 am
content: At least here in China we have an Epson model that does not use ink cartridges. Instead there is a built-in continuous ink feeding system, and ink refills are sold in plastic bottles. You are supposed to just dump the contents of the bottles into the corresponding ink tank in the printer to refill it.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 04:20:49 am
content: Quote from: ogden on May 09, 2019, 02:31:45 pmI kind of hoped that Linksys would release the full schematics and documentation set for that device.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 07:33:01 am
content: Quote from: technix on May 10, 2019, 04:17:56 amEpson EcoTank (bulk) printers are sold worldwide.Quote from: technix on May 10, 2019, 04:20:49 amDon't even dream about it.

author: AlanS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 07:45:45 am
content: In the early 80s I was still at HP - when it used to win the quality awards, best place to work awards etc. But then it was an instrument company first. That is there was an '01' group instruments, '02' group technical computing etc.If memory serves; HP swapped its laser technology for access to Epson's ink-jet technology; or the other way around. The printing division was based in San Diego?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 11:01:51 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 08, 2019, 12:30:23 amIn a reply above, I said this:Quote from: tooki on May 06, 2019, 12:27:26 pmSo yes, I think inkjet has changed dramatically since it came out.I just checked HP's youtube channel, and they now have an inkjet press that prints on 2.8m wide paper at 305m/min.Of course that's not exactly what you have at home, but it's what the technology is capable of. It has matured a LOT.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 08, 2019, 12:30:23 am20 pages? My guess is you were using entry-level printers with very tiny cartridges. And a long time ago.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 08, 2019, 12:30:23 amWhite lines are either ink running out or clogged nozzles. Smears are when dust bunnies have gotten under the print head.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 08, 2019, 12:30:23 amThere were only a small handful of Canon inkjets back in the mid 90s where the head was intended to be replaced regularly, but not with each ink tank change. That business model never caught on. We settled on two basic approaches: replace the head with every ink change (print head in cartridge) or never during the life of the printer (either permanently installed like in all Epson and many HP models, or as user-installable but intended to never be replaced, like in many Canons). If that's the last time you looked at inkjet, you literally saw it in its infancy and haven't witnessed it grow up.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 08, 2019, 12:30:23 amYeah you need to see what modern inkjets can do. My printer is 11 years old (it was Canon's top-of-the-line SOHO all-in-one from 2008) and it does 10 pages per minutereal-worldin standard-quality black and white, and that's with a print head shuffling back and forth. Modern page-width inkjet (which is ideal for business printing, but not optimal for photos) can do dozens and dozens of pages per minute.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 08, 2019, 12:30:23 amThings really have changed!I've always owned inkjets. Here's how I experienced it:Early 90s: reliable, but slooooow. Print quality was "meh". (Canon had accurate colors but text wasn't sharp. HP had sharp text but crazy inaccurate neon colors.) I had Canon then.Mid 90s: better quality and speed, reliability "meh". Canon kinda slept. HP improved. Epson entered the market, with a quantum leap in print quality. But their technology was in its infancy. I had Epson then.Late 90s/early 00s: Print quality became awesome, and speed became decent. Epson ruled, but oh man were they failure-prone. This era Epson tended to clog if you weren't printingconstantly, which is why Epson's reputation was so mixed: graphic design businesses loved them because the quality was awesome, and they never clogged for these users. But home users ended up hating them because you'd end up with unfixable clogs. I had Epson then.Mid 00's: HP and Canon embraced individual inks and higher quality print heads in better models, finally making printers that were both fast, high quality, and reliable. Epson... who cared. I switched back to Canon then.2010s: Page-wide print heads become feasible. This is probably where we'll be moving to in the long run. (Just like many toner-based printers have moved from a single moving laser to a static row of LEDs, inkjet is moving from a moving carriage to static rows of nozzles.)I've been a Canon user since 2003 and have nothing but good things to say about them. Great print quality, fast, quiet, and the Canon ink is cheap enough that I don't bother with third party. I've only needed to do a deep cleaning once, last year, at which point the printer in question was already 10 years old. (And that fixed the problem, it's now back to normal.)Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 08, 2019, 12:30:23 amYep. Things have changed.Nowadays, cheap lasers use toner that is just as expensive as inkjet ink, if not worse!Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 08, 2019, 12:30:23 amBubble jet is Canon's branding for thermal inkjet.There are a few basic inkjet technologies, and these in turn fall into two families: on-demand inkjet (the kind we are talking about) and continuous inkjet (a largely obsolete technology where the nozzles output continuous streams of droplets, and the unwanted droplets are electrostatically deflected into a spittoon for recycling or waste). Within the on-demand inkjet, there are two kinds:-Thermal inkjet, where a microscopic resistive heater heats the ink in the nozzle to the point it boils, causing a bubble of steam to form, forcing ink out of the nozzle. Then the heater turns off, the bubble collapses, and new ink flows into the nozzle. This is the technology used by Canon and HP, and Lexmark in the past. These print heads are cheap to make, but do require careful ink formulation, since you need to accurately control bubble size, viscosity, etc. for it to work. (And now you know why Canon calls it "bubble jet" technology.)-Piezo inkjet, where a piezo crystal in the nozzle flexes, narrowing the nozzle and forcing the ink out. These are more flexible in the ink formulation, but the heads are much more expensive to make. Epson and (I think) Brother use this.Bear in mind that over the years, each technology has evolved enough as to overcome its relative disadvantages. Thermal inkjet now has inks that would have been unthinkable 20 years ago, and piezo now has nozzles as fine as thermal inkjet.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 08, 2019, 02:00:40 amNo inkjeteverhad a 1-dot-wide print carriage. Early ones had printheads around 75 dots wide, and later ones much more. Mine has 3,584 nozzles, of which 512 are the "low" resolution pigment black head that prints a ~22mm (7/8") swath at 600dpi in a single pass. (And then it's got 11mm (7/16") wide heads of 512 dots each for the CMY, photo black, and photo C and M inks.)But anyway, the one in the video doesn't have a moving carriage at all.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 08, 2019, 02:00:40 amThey haven't been that slow since, like, 1997, with the exception of dedicated photo inkjets, which sacrificed speed for resolution. But even photo printers haven't been that slow since, say, 2001 or so.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 08, 2019, 02:12:12 amUnder a grand? No consumer spends that much, man. "Consumer" these days means under, like, $200...But yeah, HP sells these things from around $350, as "business" printers.I agree that they're still the exception. Consumers want $100 printers, and many want the flexibility to print photos, which a carriage-style inkjet can do while still providing adequate speeds.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 08, 2019, 02:12:12 amThe ink itself doesn't really go bad. It's whether the nozzles clog, and IMHO that's a problem the industry really has managed to solve quite well.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 08, 2019, 10:34:34 pmAll printers struggle with humidity to some degree, since paper is affected by it in various ways. But it's got nothing to do with why old inkjets clogged so much. It was about printer design and ink formulation.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 11:20:20 am
content: Quote from: tooki on May 10, 2019, 11:01:51 amnot to mention inkjet has revolutionized photo lab printing. wet lab and any optical and chemical liquid (dark room) printing labs have been made obsolete, they are not produced anymore, inkjet replaced those market. Epson SureLab D700, D3000, Fujifilm (rebadged Epson) and other dry lab machines are common in photo printing shops nowadays.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 02:33:34 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 10, 2019, 11:20:20 amNo doubt inkjet (and dye sublimation) are taking over the photo lab market, but Fujifilm, Noritsu, and ZBE still make silver halide equipment. There's still demand for silver halide prints, since its archival qualities are well understood, while inkjet's true long-term longevity is still somewhat unknown.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 03:09:14 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on May 10, 2019, 02:33:34 pmiircWilhelm Imaging Researchis one agency conducted inkjet ink permanence since many many years and some Epson (UltraChrome) and Canon (Lucia) Dye ink are rated for hundreds of years (through accelerated testing)..https://www.epson.eu/how-epson-measures-print-speeds/print-permanence-ratinghttp://www.wilhelm-research.com/canon/index.htmlso i dont think its not well understood. i believe this drove the motivation to move inkjet up in competition with silver halide archival capability and it seems its taking the place, besides for some other reasons such as convenience and running/initial cost. i've involved on this subject for many years myself as well and conducted my own test, real exposure test (as opposed to accelerated test by Wilhem) and i can swear by archival capability of "Pigment ink". pigment ink is much more permanent than dye ink, even the 3rd party china ink. but manufacturer seems to go with dye ink nowadays, i believe due to pigment ink nature/property of prone to clogging inkjet nozzle and/or some artistic properties such as bronzing and dmax/blackness issue. i still have some pictures in frame for 10+ years that havent changed a bit (excellent Lightfastness) printed with Epson R2400 modded to use pigment ink. even photos developed with wet lab (in my place at least) can turn a little bit bluish and lost dynamic range at this lifetime. having said this, anyhow this is much more to do with ink and paper technology, very little have to do with inkjet/nozzles/head technology.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 06:21:33 pm
content: I meant itsactuallong-term longevity, not itspredictedlongevity from accelerated aging. We don't have any real-world experience with how an 80 year old inkjet photo will fare, as we do with silver halide.Remember, accelerated aging predicted that pressed CDs would last essentially forever, and now we're seeing them rot. It's just not a totally reliable indicator of real-world longevity.Regardless, my point was that silver halide hasn't gone away, and it's untrue that the equipment is no longer being made.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 09:40:45 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 10, 2019, 11:20:20 amHave you seen the ink jet printers they use to make ceramic wall and floor tiles? Lots of industries are being changed by ink jet techniques.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 11:10:01 pm
content: Indeed!And in textiles, too: they now inkjet-print dye-sublimation ink onto a paper carrier and then iron it onto the fabric! (This produces continuous tones instead of visible dots, and I guess it prevents bleeding.)And look at the video I posted above from HP. Their inkjet presses are insane. Another model prints onto unfolded cardboard boxes on a conveyor belt, using machine vision to determine the cardboard's position and align on the fly!

author: ixfd64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2019, 03:40:14 am
content: Quote from: ogden on May 09, 2019, 08:26:03 amI would say the FLIR thermal cameras and certain oscilloscopes are also exceptions.And this is probably a silly question, but are certain devices inherently harder to hack than others? Or does it depend on whether the product has computer interfaces, such as USB or serial ports?I do recall someone in the FLIR E4 thread saying that it would be very difficult to reverse-engineer an FPGA. So would the difficulty also depend on how much of the firmware is in the FPGA as opposed to a file system?

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2019, 08:36:12 am
content: Quote from: ixfd64 on May 11, 2019, 03:40:14 amReally? You shall be specific here - provide info/links. Wait... let me guess... you think that hacking software keys to gain access to already existing, but locked options/functions is the same as making open source firmware we are talking about? - It's like break into house, change locks then say that house is fully rebuilt/renovated

author: ixfd64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2019, 12:18:11 am
content: I was referring to unlocking functions in those cases. Sorry if I wasn't clear.On another note, here's another interesting thread on removing tracking dots:https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14501894

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2019, 01:53:52 pm
content: Quote from: ixfd64 on May 12, 2019, 12:18:11 amTo the best of my knowledge, no inkjet printer has ever been found to employ tracking dots. You couldn’t really do it on a moving-head inkjet, since 1) printing in color slows things down, and 2) the print head must move across the page to print there, so printing tracking dots would require the head to always cover the entire page, even blank areas.. Both of these effects would behighlynoticeable, and we haven’t seen them.A page-wide inkjet could do tracking dots easily, but again I don’t think this has ever been found to be the case. Tracking dots were developed to catch counterfeiters, and an inkjet print is just too different from the kinds of documents in question (like money), so printer makers were only asked to put it into toner based devices. I know they’ve since been used to ferret out whistleblowers, so I wouldn’t be surprised to see them expanded to page wide inkjet at some point.