New Scope Question - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: ParadiseCS
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 03:22:34 am
content: A few years ago I got my first jukebox and arcade machines and enjoyed repairing them them so much I went back to school after 33 years and I am now finishing up two degrees in electronics. I've been watching the boards for a while and consensus still seems to be that a good beginner scope is the Rigol DS1054z. The Rigol store on Amazon has it at two very different price points and Rigol direct has increased the price quite a bit as well over the last time I checked.Does anyone know if they have released a new version of it that would account for the increase in pricing, $349 vs $419, or is it just the over all increase in goods?I'm working mostly on analog amps form the 60s-70s as well as arcade boards and monitors. I've looked at various models but it seems to me that I'd be better off keeping my logic and functions separate from the scope, just for better functionality.With that in mind, what would be the next level up for a hobbyist? I like the Techtronic we've been using in class and on Multisim but those are way over priced. The 1054 at $349 seemed like a great deal for what it is but at over $400 there seems to be a big jump, at least on paper. It could all be marketing fluff for all I know.Stephen

author: mjj
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 06:10:19 am
content: It’s not unusual in my experience to see prices vary by between 100% and 150% for exactly the same thing on Amazon. In the UK retailers have to offer something at a higher price for a certain period before they can cut the price and advertise it as discounted, so if I saw this on Amazon UK I’d assume the price had been bumped up after the Christmas rush ready to offer ‘amazing’ discounts in the New Year…

author: WattsThat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 06:56:32 am
content: The same product is sold through different vendors on Amazon. It’s available for $349 when sold by Amazon if you’re a prime member. The same exact product is $419 from the Rigol Store sold through Amazon. Go figure.It is also available from other resellers for $349, for example, DigiKey which turns out to be sold from the Rigol store. Is the market making sense yet? I didn’t think so... I prefer not to give Amazon any money if I can buy the the same thing for the same price elsewhere and many times it can be found for less, you just have to put some effort into it.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 08:09:28 am
content: I don't know the exact situation of your country1, but I know that Amazon's charges are comparatively high with a direct outlet. Sure, they have the value add of customer returns, "free" shipping, etc. but an established reseller will have some of that as well.I try to get things directly from the resellers, unless.the price difference is very dramatic.Regarding the oscilloscope itself, did you check the more modern platforms from Siglent? Namely the SDS1202X-E (200MHz, 2 ch) and SDS1104X-E (100MHz, 4ch)? They have some edge over the Rigol with regards to architecture (better distribution of AD sample rate, for example) and functionality (better FFT, vertical sensitivity, remote controlability, etc.). Another model thst is based on more or less the same platform is the GW Instek GDS1054B, which is more limited than the Siglent (last time I checked, protocol decoding is limited in memory) but physically has individual controls for the four channels (in contrast with the multiplexed controls of both the Rigol and the Siglent).Good luck in your quest!1edit - the mobile version of the site does not show the country

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 09:41:22 am
content: Quote from: ParadiseCS on December 26, 2021, 03:22:34 amYep, still good, still EEVBLOG approved.Right now though I'd maybe go for this one:https://www.tequipment.net/Instek/GDS-1054B/Digital-Oscilloscopes/Better UI, separate vertical controls, better FFT.Edit: As noted two posts down, tequipment do an EEVBLOG discount. You have to find the latest discount code in thesecret thread.Quote from: ParadiseCS on December 26, 2021, 03:22:34 amThere's no new version, it's just Amazon.

author: GerryR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 12:32:16 pm
content: The BK Precision 2190E is a rebranded Siglent series SDS1000 CDL+ scope and can be had new on Ebay for much less than $400, when you can find them. They regularly hover in the $400.00 range. You can get all firmware updates through the Siglent site, but in my experience, BK also provides excellent support.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 12:55:35 pm
content: I just saw that your country is in the US. In this case, the options for purchase are much less stringent.Regardless of the model, don't forget that two distributors here have discounts for members of the EEVblog community.Saeligcarries the three brands andTequipmentcarries only the Rigol.Also, the manufacturers have clearance stores, which carry products at a discount - I got my Rigol years ago from there.Rigol:https://www.rigolna.com/clearance/Siglenthttps://siglentna.com/products/clearance/

author: ParadiseCS
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 05:47:49 pm
content: Thank you everyone for the responses. I didn't know about the discount so I will check that out. I'm also not locked in to the sub $400 range for any reason other than function vs cost. That's why I ruled out the Tek TDS line, they are great, I've loved learning on them, but there seems to be a 40% markup just for the name.Luckily I'm at a stage in life where the difference between a learning scope and the next level up isn't that big of a deal to the retirement fund.I've never looked at the BK or Instek even though I've used their function generators before. How is their longevity? There are so many choices it's daunting at best. What I need is a shop where I can play with the controls to see what I like.Thank you for the suggestions and if there are any others worth noting please let me know.Stephen

author: ParadiseCS
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 07:32:40 pm
content: Thanks for the info on the Rigol controls. It never occurred to me that a four channel scope wouldn’t have separate controls for each channel. I think that would drive me nuts.Stephen.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 08:04:10 pm
content: Quote from: ParadiseCS on December 26, 2021, 07:32:40 pmIf you have DSO experience you quickly adapt to a multiplexed vertical control. Most of the pro scopes have gone this way.It seems with your experience a SDS1104X-E could be worth considering and if you didn't consider its feature set necessary a SDS1104X-U could also be a worthwhile option.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 09:00:30 pm
content: Yep. Multiplexed controls are inevitable -- just think how many you'd need to do 8 analog channels, 16 digital channels, a few math channels, a few ref channels... it would look like an audio DJ setup if you didn't multiplex, lol.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 09:20:01 pm
content: Quote from: ParadiseCS on December 26, 2021, 05:47:49 pmIn this case, I would definitely go for the more featured of the entry levels, the Siglent SDS1104X-E. Of course, unless you find unbearable the multiplexed controls. I would recommend getting an entry level oscilloscope and, if you see the need to go to a better model after working with the current one for a while, sell it as it tends to keep some value.Quote from: ParadiseCS on December 26, 2021, 05:47:49 pmIn today's day and age, unfortunately this will be a hard thing to do. If you have a Microcenter store near you (the last brick amd mortar I know still sells oscilloscopes), you can try to see if they have an open box scope for you to play. Otherwise, you will have to take advantage of the generous return policies of the various stores.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 10:13:59 pm
content: Quote from: ParadiseCS on December 26, 2021, 07:32:40 pmThe Instek also gives you a proper button to push for menu selections instead of having to push the twisty knob which might twist 0.005 degrees as you push it and select different menu item than the one you wanted. That's also guaranteed to make you swear at it.Quote from: tautech on December 26, 2021, 08:04:10 pmThey haven't done it for usability reasons though. They've done it because they needed the space to add more buttons.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 10:18:43 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 26, 2021, 09:20:01 pmYes, if the budget is there then go for the Siglent. It's a step up in price but the step up in features is proportional.(unlike the Tektronix).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 11:01:31 pm
content: Quote from: ParadiseCS on December 26, 2021, 07:32:40 pmI don't think I've ever used a DSO that didn't have this, at least not one with more than 2 channels. It would get too unwieldy to have a separate set of controls for each channel.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 11:06:01 pm
content: I think the $349 DS1054Zs are just ones that haven't caught up yet, it appears they intend to raise the MSRP back up (it had previously been higher than $349) and then some. So IMO the entry-level scope that is in third place is now the most expensive. Skip it and look at the Siglent SDS1104X-U or the GW Instek GDS1054B for less money. TEquipment has all 3 in stock (although their price on Rigol is now $419) and they offer a 6% discount to EEVBlog members. They also accept Paypal and I have at least one credit card with 5% cash back on Paypal transactions this quarter...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 12:52:37 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 26, 2021, 11:06:01 pmAnother brand to look at is MicSig. They have touchscreen only and versions with buttons (besides the touchscreen).

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 01:51:09 am
content: Quote from: ParadiseCS on December 26, 2021, 03:22:34 amThe Rigol MSO5000 series might be the next step up, but it comes at twice the price.Consider a lower cost oscilloscope but with one or two lower voltage "high voltage" differential probes for general use.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 07:12:46 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 27, 2021, 12:52:37 amYep. I'm a Micsig owner.You get slightly less features than the Rigols/Siglents/etc. but in return you get a big screen and the user interface is an order of magnitude better/faster. It's also portable, has Wifi, even a web browser so you can bring up a datasheet on your 'scope if you want to.

author: ParadiseCS
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 04:22:24 am
content: Thanks again everyone, you have given me much to ponder.I have narrowed down my choices and while the sub-400 market would probably do the job I'm leaning towards the Siglent SDS1104X-E . While doubtful I'd ever use the digital probes making the "U" model sufficient, I really like the Bode Plot capability and the web server of the "E" model. I like the GW Instek look and controls but their equivalent to the Siglent is more money; even as much as I prefer the individual channel controls. Plus in my 30 years as an IT Consultant I've learned to lean towards future proofing, not just purchase the immediate need.I am surprised by the lack of external triggers on most of the DSOs. Is the assumption you somehow use one of the four probes as a trigger?I just read through the 90+ page review here on the boards about the SDS1104X-E and not only does the unit seem great, I learned way more about testing than I have in nearly two years of school.I'm still researching but plan on ordering before the end of the year to use it as a tax right off so any other insights are more than welcome.Thanks again.Stephen

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 04:46:09 am
content: Quote from: ParadiseCS on December 28, 2021, 04:22:24 amThe SDS1104X-E is a tremendous bang-for-buck, even more so whenhackedimproved, but it is still only a $500 unit. They need to draw the line somewhere. Yes, you generally are going to be triggering from one of your inputs, so the EXT TRIG feature is probably not seen as a big deal on a 4-channel entry-level scope. 2-channel models do have it. Their next-level-up scope also has it.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 04:54:33 am
content: Quote from: ParadiseCS on December 28, 2021, 04:22:24 amThat is exactly the case. Two channel oscilloscopes almost always come with an external trigger input, but four channel scopes rarely do. Some two channel oscilloscopes even have two external trigger inputs. There is an assumption that if you have four channels, that you can sacrifice one for triggering if necessary.This does not always work out on modern DSOs, but logic analyzer inputs can sometimes be used as a trigger for the analog channels. The problem is that sometimes the logic inputs have timing resolution limited to the logic sampling clock.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 05:13:32 am
content: Quote from: ParadiseCS on December 28, 2021, 04:22:24 amGood reading isn't it and amazing how low cost scopes have advanced in the last decade.While you're waiting for your new scope to arrive, some more reading on these for you:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1x04x-e-bodeplot-ii-(sfra)-features-and-testing-(coming)/

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 08:15:58 am
content: Quote from: ParadiseCS on December 28, 2021, 04:22:24 amHello Stephen!If I can pitch in an opinion, if you can afford it, I would recommend SDS1104X-E, not U.It has 2 AD converters (which makes it show higher frequencies more correctly when all 4 ch are used), it has twice the memory across the channels (2x14 Mpts instead just 1x14Mpts), has BODE plot option if later on you get Siglent AWG, and it has WEB control that is very useful to control scope from a PC, better (more points) FFT etc..U is very nice little scope and good value for the money, but SDS1104X-E gives quite a bit more for not much more money. In my opinion that one is in the sweet spot of that market.And our user Performa01 that wrote that review did superb job, agree..

author: ParadiseCS
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 11:26:42 pm
content: Thanks everyone. 1104x-e has been ordered from TE. No on to the next task of a function generator that is better than the homebuilt job I've been using.Stephen

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 12:04:08 am
content: Quote from: ParadiseCS on December 28, 2021, 11:26:42 pmOnce Siglent has their hooks into you...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/bode-plots-useful/msg3580010/#msg3580010

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 12:22:34 am
content: Quote from: ParadiseCS on December 28, 2021, 11:26:42 pmThe SAG1021I is a reasonably priced solution although you must drive/control it from SDS1104X-E plus you get the benefit of seamless connectivity for the Bode plot feature.https://siglentna.com/product/external-arbitrary-waveform-generator-2/Ignore the misprint: Insulation Voltage: ±42 Vpk (forSAG2021Ionly), which should be SAG1021I, the later and Insulated channel version of SAG1021

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 12:28:29 am
content: Quote from: ParadiseCS on December 28, 2021, 11:26:42 pmYou won´t regret it, got this too before my former rigol mso and now siglent sds2k+.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 01:00:02 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 29, 2021, 12:22:34 am...but only if you are desperate to save a buck and just have to have the scope-connected Bode plot feature at the lowest possible price. Or the isolated output, I suppose.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 01:17:03 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 29, 2021, 01:00:02 amThe OP has already extended his budget to get a more feature packed scope, why wouldn't we want to save him a buck.That said the SAG1021I is far more FG than any homebuilt jobbie despite its limited output.

author: ParadiseCS
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 07:18:54 am
content: I am actually looking at either the sdg810 or the 1032, I’ve never used a dual generator and that could be fun. If I read correctly either will work in conjunction with the 1104e for the bode plot function.Or do I need the 1021 for that? It seems like such an odd device, more like something from Hantek.I also didn’t realize that Siglent was going to charge a license fee for things like WiFi and the waveform generation. By the time you buy the license for that and the 1021 you are at SDG810 pricing already.Thanks for all the helpStephen

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 07:29:06 am
content: Quote from: ParadiseCS on January 07, 2022, 07:18:54 amAny of the SDG models pair directly with a SDS1104X-E for Bode plot via LAN or USB.SAG1021I (the later isolated channel model) is the cheapest solution albeit for its limited output drive capability.QuoteEverywhere these are sold WiFi, FG and MSO are listed as optional. You must have overlooked that however most hack those functionalities.

author: ParadiseCS
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 09, 2022, 03:43:54 am
content: I knew that there were addons, I missed the part where you had to pay for the hardware addon as well as a license fee to use it. I wouldn't even mind the license fees if they made any sense. I'll read up on the other ways. For now I won't need any of them, but I will later on.Stephen