How long are breadboards supposed to last? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2010, 04:42:12 am
content: As I was working on my ECEN 489 project, I had an intermittent problem with the address counter that I ultimately traced down to a bad connection on the breadboard. How long do breadboards typically last? The one I have is about 5 years old, used on average twice a week. It's an Elenco Precision 9440.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2010, 05:14:58 am
content: interesting question i never thought. well, i'm a new guy, my oldest breadboard is like just a year. i thought it will last forevermaybe loose connection already, can you take out the metal and re-press the two metal contact? i'm not sure i can explain it better, but if you can have a look at the metal contact "bar", then maybe you'll understand what i mean. just my 2cnt, as i said, i'm a new guy.ps: whats the ecen489? some communication project?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2010, 05:22:30 am
content: Some components have really thick wires, high current diodes etc. they tend to stretch the breadboard holes and after that little components with thin wires don't connect very well.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2010, 05:43:35 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on October 18, 2010, 04:42:12 amNot very long. And a good bunch of professionals despise and reject them entirely because of their unreliability and mediocre electrical properties, e.g., high stray capacity between contacts.Some are a little bit better than others. E.g. the ones made by 3M, but for getting something a little bit better you don't just pay a little bit more, but much more.

author: DJPhil
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2010, 06:07:34 am
content: Quote from: Psi on October 18, 2010, 05:22:30 amThis has been my downfall with cheap breadboards. I've tried to keep the bigger stuff to one end of the boards I have but it just doesn't seem to work out well if I'm after a tight layout. At least they're cheap to replace.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2010, 08:35:37 am
content: Yes, professionals tend to go straight to veroboard or a rough PCB prototype rather than using a breadboard.I use a breadboards myself but I'm aware of its limitations: low current rating, high contact resistance, high parasitic capacitance so totally unsuitable for high frequency operation.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2010, 10:21:15 am
content: Lifetime. I have breadboards that are over 20 years old. It is a wear and tear device, if you use it often, the spring contacts may weaken, and if they become unreliable, BB are cheap enough today to replace without a second thought. If you own a no name one [ the best I've used were made by US makers in the US typically that's up the late 1980s before it got outsourced elsewhere ] and the contact tarnishes, its easier to replace it than clean it as if one contact is bad, the others maybe too that you don't know about.There are things you should know about them:They are designed for low power and low frequency electronicsThus the lead size are typically for devices using < 1A. If your leads do not enter easily into the socket, its too big. Once the metal spring is deformed, that socket is essentially toastedBecause there are always pairs of electronic contact between a plastic sheet, there isalways, parasitic capacitance, therefore any design using a BB should be kept under the frequency this capacitance becomes a problem, typically 1 MHz, you can get away probably to 2 MHz, but it really depends on what the true capacitance is and that depends on the type of plastic used and its thickness.If your design is over 1 MHz, or is RF based, do not use a breadboard unless you know what you're doing and compensate for stray capacitances.http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/bob-pease-breadboard.htmThe great Bob Pease, National Semiconductor's crown jewel, wrote an article many years back that described how breadboarding can be useful for prototyping even sophisticated circuits as long as the limitations are understood and heeded. Many times I have searched the Internet looking for a picture of the breadboard I recalled seeing, but to no avail. Finally, I wrote to him asking if he remembered it and he responded by saying it is the one featured on the cover of his book, "Troubleshooting Analog Circuits." You can click on the image to the left for the full picture, but the breadboard portion is show full-size below. If you would like a copy of his book, please click on the smaller thumbnail to the right.Bob wrote, "THIS was actually the breadboard for the LM131 V-to-F converter - which I designed in 1977, and which is still being designed in, today, and is still in production. Yes, it can be used to convert voltages to F - and then you use a counter, to make a very linear digital conversion - or for F-to-V."

author: JohnS_AZ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2010, 02:09:56 pm
content: My oldest breaboard is starting to get a little bit flakey, but it's over 30 years old. My others, about 20 years old are still fine. I really believe breadboards are a "you get what you pay for" product. High quality ones are not cheap. Cheap ones are just crap. I would almost consider the current Chinese board as disposable after a year or two.As a point of comparison, my biggest board, bought about 20 years ago, cost me over $100 back then.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2010, 03:38:30 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on October 18, 2010, 10:21:15 amBob Pease's breadboards aren't the type of breadboards we discuss here (solderless breadboards). He is known to use coper-clad boards for breadboarding.BTW, he has been fired from National Semiconductor during the financial crisis.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2010, 04:47:27 pm
content: Hi BoredAtWork,You are right, I'm wrong, but I posted that pic as its a classic in prototyping wierdness. I'm not sure he's the crown jewel, but celebrities in engineering are far far few.As for being 'fired' from NS, I'm not so sure. Whatever the relationship, it seems pretty amicable, on the outside. NS still has a whole portion of its website dedicated to him.http://www.national.com/rap/As I've worked in large organizations, they can make a package that provide incentives to retire. A near retirement researcher can make room for several younger ones to stay etc., given seniority pay scales.http://www.physorg.com/news159702678.htmlI can't say any of that happened to Bob Pease. National said last week that Pease, 68, retired, and that he would continue to work on projects as a consultant. Pease says he'd promised National he would not talk about the circumstances surrounding his departure. But he doesn't sound like a man ready to retire.Bob Pease speaks about solderless breadboards:http://www.national.com/rap/Story/0,1562,8,00.htmlFinally, Wanda said she was going to try to put a disclaimer in our linear databooks and applications handbooks, that the "solderless breadboards" are unsuitable for any applications other than medium-speed, medium-impedance-level, and medium-precision circuits. It may sound silly, but I know that she'll find a way to put in a caution flag where it's appropriate. I mean, Wanda is the Czarina of Linear Data Books. She can put anything she wants in there. Show Me Where It Says She Can't Do It!NB: Medium frequency is ~ < 3MHz.Quote from: BoredAtWork on October 18, 2010, 03:38:30 pm

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2010, 04:53:16 pm
content: Here's a more representative photo of the best of 'solderless' breadboarding, a recreation of the Sinclair Spectrum core logic, entirely on a breadboard:http://labs.v3.co.uk/2010/06/vintage-compute.htmloriginally was this:For this:I owned one of these long ago, it runs on a Z80 CPU, clocks typically between 1-3MHz.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2010, 05:09:52 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on October 18, 2010, 04:47:27 pmhttp://electronicdesign.com/article/analog-and-mixed-signal/bob-pease-is-leaving-national-but-not-electronic-d.aspxQuoteQuoteI think if I look hard I can find a B.P. quote where he discourages the usage of solderless breadboards for > 50 kHz.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2010, 05:15:59 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on October 18, 2010, 05:09:52 pmI believe in 'Troubleshooting Analog Circuits', he discourages their use for anything.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2010, 05:50:17 pm
content: Here's one:http://electronicdesign.com/article/articles/what-s-all-this-breadboarding-stuff-anyhow-6105.aspxWell, I promptly sent a hello back to Ed, agreeing with him on many items. But I added four more caveats to his part 1:* I would avoid the solderless breadboards for frequencies that are above 50 kHz.* I would beware when inductance would hurt, for example, if there is a lot of di/dt, such as in a switching regulator. Or, when a bypass capacitor must be right near an IC, and the long paths won't let you do that.* I'd avoid them when leakage between nodes would be harmful, as the nylon is not necessarily a high impedance in warm, damp weather.* I also pointed out to Ed that the care you put into your breadboard depends on what you plan to do with it when you get it running.Quote from: BoredAtWork on October 18, 2010, 05:09:52 pm

author: Zyvek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2010, 08:04:00 pm
content: I guess another reason to dig out my old wire wrapping tools!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2010, 10:25:55 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on October 18, 2010, 05:09:52 pmThere's no hard and fast rule. The maximum frequency will depend on the circuit. If there's a sensitive high impedance node next to an AC signal, even 10kHz can be too higher frequency for a breadboard.

author: quantumfall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2010, 11:18:00 pm
content: Will the capacitance problems be less if you use connection bars that are two or more apart ? Is it a supply rail bar problem ?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2010, 11:00:24 am
content: Yes, the further the bars are from one another the lower the capacitance between them but the leads going into them will probably be longer which means more inductance.

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2010, 12:36:43 pm
content: A few days ago someone on here posted a link to the Global Specialities Corporation site. I was shocked but pleased to see they are still making the breadboard I got when I was at school. This must make it nearly 25 years old, but I still use it. Certainly not every day or every week, but it still works fine. I must admit that I have lost count of the number of times I have removed the connector clips and adjusted them.

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2010, 05:44:20 pm
content: how many mm of component leg need to poke through the perfboard for a reliable wire wrap connection?-sj

author: DJPhil
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2010, 10:16:28 pm
content: Quote from: sonicj on October 21, 2010, 05:44:20 pmWire wrap uses a special socket typewith one inch posts for making connections, it won't work with standard component leads. Think of a dip socket, but with one inch (or slightly longer) square posts sticking out of the bottom. The posts are made with hard corners and anti-corrosive coatings. The wiki article (lined above) will help explain why all that is necessary.Hope that helps.