NSW fair trading wants to ban mains powered DIY magazine projects - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 09:06:03 pm
content: siliconchip magazine April 2019 publisher's Letter: Nannies want to stop you building mains-powered projectshttp://www.siliconchip.com.au/Issue/2019/April/Nannies+want+to+stop+you+building+mains-powered+projects?res=nonflashany electrical article connected to, and extending or situated beyond, any electrical outlet sockethttps://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/trades-and-businesses/licensing-and-qualifications/electricalwill this end any mains powered DIY projects in electronics magazines.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 09:36:41 pm
content: Relax. It refers tofixedelectrical installations, not your mains connected mock-up.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 09:39:57 pm
content: The fairtrading link specifically states it doesnotinclude "any electrical article connected to, and extending or situated beyond, any electrical outlet socket".

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 09:40:34 pm
content: I've been wondering when this sort of thing would be coming.I sell some kits, and most of my personal project work with mains: dimmers, switches, IOT, etc. I'd love to sell a kit for one of those mains projects, but I'm afraid to because I'd get sued into oblivion by someone did something stupid and hurt himself. Your friendly Anonymous AliExpress seller doesn't seem to have this worry, which is I guess why you see so many crap relay boards for sale.People are definitely getting strange about safety. In part I think it's because we're getting so disconnected from the physical world around us. Nobody seems to have any intuitive sense for how things work.Just the other day, my wife had a flat -- a simple puncture -- right in front of our kids' school. While changing the tire more than one person recommended that I stop and I that should just call a tow truck. After all, it's sodangerous! Did I really know what I was doing? When I said I was going to patch that tire rather than buy a new one, one onlooker nearly fainted. How irresponsible to drivechildrenin a vehicle that was not property repaired by a certified tire safety professional?! The humanity!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 10:00:51 pm
content: In other news, Nicholas Vinen is now editor of SC

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 10:03:23 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on March 29, 2019, 09:40:34 pmTo anyone who suggests that you call a tow truck instead of swapping out the flat tire for the spare, say, "well, I don't have four hours to wait here."What's maddening is the number of new cars sold without a spare tire, not even that goofy bagel. Instead they give you a can of Fix-A-Flat. Of course, the can of stuff doesn't do diddly if you had a blowout and not a slow leak from a nail. And how long does that can last, anyway?QuoteHah, around here, you're as likely as not to see someone not even removing the wheel from the car, and just plugging the tire as it sits.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 10:34:37 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on March 29, 2019, 09:40:34 pmI view that as just the latest indication of how soft society is getting these days. I'll work my tail off - spending far more of my time than I'm saving in money - to repair something myself, just on principle. Yet so many other people do exactly what you described and just shut down when things don't goperfectly. There are a lot of people alive right now that would never have made it if they'd been born 50+ years ago.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 12:07:58 am
content: I don't think Fair trading have any power to stop SC publishing projects like this. They aren't selling a mainsproduct.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 12:09:37 am
content: just specify a 1:1 transformer?

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 01:11:44 am
content: I found this interesting, as to how things have changed over time.as to what is or is not considered unsafe or seen as dangerous.thank you all for the feedback!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 01:39:28 am
content: The editorial says a complaint was made and Fair Trading have passed it on. I imagine some SJW saw "unqualified" people fooling around with mains power and jumped at the chance to whinge.For any project which has a mains plug on the end that you can yank out of the wall socket, there is no problem, as is very clearly stated in the above citation. This has been the case for as long as I can remember in NSW, if not Australia.I do, however, find myself slightly concerned when it comes to an item like a touch dimmer. This is an item that will be typically installed as part of the fixed wiring. There is no plug to yank out. There is no switch nearby to turn off the power and no immediately apparent means to do so. The observer would have to have the presence of mind to run out to the fuse box and know what switch to flick.Certainly the installation of such a unit must be done by a qualified electrician - but what about the construction of the unit itself? The design, specified components and method of construction may be more than adequate, but there is no "authoritative" supervision of its construction nor are there any approvals for the final product. If some potentially lethal fault develops, there is no immediate means to isolate the circuit.By faithfully following the instructions of a well designed project, such risks will be minimal - and most of us here will take every care (and maybe add a bit more insulation here, a bit more cable dressing there or even using a higher rated component or two) but if someone takes even one shortcut, then the risk could become unacceptable.Here is another question: If you build a project like a touch light dimmer - completely according to the design, test it thoroughly, have it installed by a licenced electrician and then have a fire which is traced back to your dimmer module... How will your house insurance claim go?Will you be able to analyse the charred remains and determine the cause to (hopefully) point the finger of blame at someone else? Do you have the forensic skills to even attempt such an exercise? Even if you do, will you have the credibility/authority for such a determination to be accepted? OR will the insurance company simply say: "Faulty home made device, no approvals - claim rejected."?Remember, this isnotabout your home made frequency counter or MP3 playing flower vase that are plugged into a mains wall socket. It is about items that become part of thefixed wiring.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 01:43:44 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on March 30, 2019, 12:09:37 amNot particularly practical for any fixed wiring installations - such as for a light dimmer for household room lighting.But, even then, an isolation transformer will not eradicate all risks. It sill has mains voltage.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 09:12:35 am
content: People suck at making safety decisions so they can't be allowed to make safety decisions for themselves.People aren't allowed to make safety decisions for themselves so they suck at making safety decisions.People keep dying in increasingly stupid accidents while everything grinds to a halt from bureaucracy.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 03:57:48 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 29, 2019, 10:00:51 pmHe's done some really nice projects. I don't know him at all but once gave him a rough time over a PCB lousy ground-pour and SC always stuffing their projects into those tiny plastic boxes.It would be interesting to see his direction or maybe do an AMA here on EEVblog.Fair Trade should worry about the chinese import items flowing in, that have no approvals or are outright unsafe in their manufacture.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 04:04:22 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on March 29, 2019, 09:40:34 pmThat's absolutely absurd. In my opinion one should be required to be proficient at a simple task like changing a tire in order to be granted a drivers license.I think part of what has happened is that everything has gotten so much safer overall that people's perception of "dangerous" has changed. People have become extremely risk averse.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 05:21:53 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on March 30, 2019, 01:39:28 amUL Listing is generally required. Europe has a similar listing requirement.I spent my entire career working on electrical and I don't recall seeing any direct mains products that weren't UL Listed. There are a ton of plug-in gadgets that aren't UL Listed but many are. Looking on my desk, I have a 9V wall wart from China that is NOT UL Listed but carries the CE mark (self-certified, no doubt) and a cell phone charger that is UL Listed.What I don't understand is why they let unlisted devices into the country. If it was made here it would absolutely have to be listed. They certainly won't let them in Europe without the CE mark.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 05:35:36 pm
content: I did consider showing my girlfriend how to change a tire but we had to stop part way through because she couldn't lift the spare out of the trunk, it was too heavy. If a flat tire does occur then her only options are to call me or call ADACAs for the original problem, anyone constructing mains powered equipment needs to be aware of the risks and, to some extent, needs to know what they are doing. RCDs make things a bit safer these days but if I make something that runs on 230V I make damn sure that it's safe before I screw the cover on. A simple disclaimer by the magazine should have them legally covered.A Haynes manual will show me how to change the brakes on our car but I would not attempt it because a) I'm not a car mechanic and b) if something goes wrong someone might die. Similar principle.

author: LA7SJA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 08:06:22 pm
content: April 1st?

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 09:41:47 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on March 29, 2019, 10:03:23 pmhere for an extra ~20€ a year they guarantee than 45 minutes, do you need a spare often enough that not having onein the car won't pay for itself in saved fuel?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 10:47:51 pm
content: Brakes are a piece of cake, I have a hard time understanding why anyone would be averse to doing that either for that matter. Yes it's important to do it right, but it's such a simple task to do so, especially if you replace the pads before they completely wear out and score the rotors. I was doing brake jobs on the family car by the time I was 14.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2019, 02:44:24 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 30, 2019, 03:57:48 pmHe's been credited as editor for ~18 months, and as publisher/editor for over 6. I stopped buying it years ago, but read through enough of most issues to feel the direction hasn't changed much since he took over.Whether that's good or bad will be a matter of personal opinion. Personally, one of the things I've got no time for is anyone who gets "angry" and whines about how "common sense" - notice it's always their own opinion of what constitutes that; never anyone else's opinion, let alone knowledge or experience - is being taken away from them by "nannies" or "SJWs", even if Idotend to agree with their overall point. So I guess you can figure out why I continue my nearly 2-decade streak of not buying SC.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2019, 04:42:03 am
content: Quote from: Tac Eht Xilef on March 31, 2019, 02:44:24 amSC pays more attention to spacings, fusing, strain reliefs and protective-earth grounding for safety than cheap mains-powered chinese goods, IMHO.I recall Leo taking on politicians, and why not push back against boneheads? Otherwise the SJW's will ban our soldering irons, lol. It's like they have nothing to do.There are few electronics magazines remaining that do complex projects. I just thought SC might participate for feedback or ideas.For me, subscription got expensive and getting A4 binders and shipping to Canada is like ordering gold bullion by private jet from Australia. Using Adobe FLASH was asking too much.

author: vtwin@cox.net
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2019, 10:16:03 am
content: Quote from: German_EE on March 30, 2019, 05:35:36 pmSheesh. Even my 115 wife can lift the spare tire out of her car, and she doesn't have chick muscles.QuoteIt takes all of 10 minutes to learn how to change disc brakes, and maybe 15 minutes to learn how to do drum brakes (due to the springs and adjustment bar, but nothing a camera phone can't fix).I have no aversion to taking my car to the mechanic for repairs (after all, my time is worth something too) but when I'm told a brake job for my 08 Tundra is going to cost me $1,200 US, and I can buy kit myself for under $400 and it takes me about 90-120 minutes to do (mainly because I do not have a lift so have to jack up each corner myself) you bet I'm going to learn how to do it myself (At most shops two guys (1 on each side) do brakes on a car @ about 30 minutes/ea -- so you figure about 1 hour of labor -- at $800? no thanks.)Now, when the alternator on my Tunda crapped out, I did take it to a local mechanic, even though I could do it myself, because the alternator is buried at the bottom of front of the engine, and you have to disassemble almost the entire front end to get it out. I didn't feel like wasting an entire summer Saturday afternoon doing it, so it was well worth the $400 in labor the mechanic charged me to do it.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2019, 12:44:41 am
content: Quote from: djacobow on March 29, 2019, 09:40:34 pmSoldering irons are dangerous so why take the risk, ban them as well. Come to think of it so are LiPo's. Safer world = ban everything or let Darwin deal with the less competent.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2019, 01:14:21 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 30, 2019, 05:21:53 pmMy mother in law had a bunch of outlet strips that carried a UL listing. If you turned them upside down, the plugs FELL OUT! These were brand-new units, too. I sent an email warning to UL but they didn't even bother to reply. Obviously, the UL listing was just forged.Jon

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2019, 04:50:02 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 29, 2019, 10:00:51 pmHe's a nice guy, good luck to him. Hope he has the mojo to keep SC going for a few more years at least.