Electricians - an awkward bunch to deal with - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2023, 06:49:55 pm
content: Having just had a forum on a local electrical suppliers around an inverter install it would seem the best way to piss off an electrician is to start trying to work out what it is they do in front of them.A sub-set of them litterally start turning purple in the face and spitting venom at you. "HOW DARE YOU! HOW DARE YOU COME IN HERE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND STUFF!" "BE GONE! SPEND your £500 on ALL the manuals and ALL editions of the code and learn it by rote and by rhyme, no understanding required, just follow the letter!", "YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO READ THE DOCUMENTATION OF MY TRADE!" "I HAD TO GO TO TECH 3 DAYS A WEEK TO GET MY QUALIFICATION! How dare you come in here and try and learn it DIY!", "You aren't qualified to understand!"They really do bump themselves up, don't they. I wish there was a big manual I could read and remember for my trade. I wish it was only 3 days and only one tech course and not 4 full time tech courses and 4 years of degree to get in the door, and a total of 8 years of advanced education to do my job. Oh and you don't like people poking their nose behind the curtain to see the "emporor" and what he really does? Guess what. I'm a software engineer, everyone invites me into the business. It's one of the perks/hells of the job. Everyone opens the door and asks US to understand their business, understand everything that they do to the N'th degree, asks us to redesign their proceedures, business processes and data so they can be more productive. I really wish I was in a professional so tightly guarded I could, like they do, put my head in a book and live by it as a bible. If I obey the great book I am a good spark, no engineering required.It's quite different than in here with actual electrical/electronics engineers. I think installers "sparks" have a bit of chip on their shoulder as kids getting into it they probably thought they would become an engineer, when all they really do is follow a book written by others and are almost encouraged NOT to understand what they doing, for fear they make a decision which is not in line with the good book.

author: redkitedesign
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2023, 07:03:54 pm
content: Once upon a time, I was living in a rental.The owner had hired some idiot to remove some tree stumps from the garden, and the idiot ripped up an underground cable.So, responsible adult as I am, I taped up the bare ends of the cable. (It was on its own circuit, so the breaker was out. But since it was on a single pole breaker, it still caused a ground fault. Yes, the Main Switch board in this rental was ancient)Comes the cousin twice removed from the gardener, who happens to be a Certified Sparky.WHAT! YOU DARED TO ISOLATE BARE MAINS WIRE! DID YOU KNOW YOU CAN GET HUGE FINE FOR THAT!Apparently, he (correctly) assumed I checked the breaker before isolating the wires.Alternatively, he was more concerned with the rules and regulations and less with the actual safety of people.Later, I moved to .NL where I'm legally allowed to isolate bare mains wires without prior trade group approval.

author: unknownparticle
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2023, 08:19:20 pm
content: Yeah, sparkies do tend to have a jumped up sense of self importance, particularly now they have all that complex test equipment to play with!!And yet I've seen more utter botchery on domestic wiring installs than in any other electrical or electronic systems!

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2023, 08:19:32 pm
content: "asks us to redesign their proceedures, business processes and data"Lucky! I thought software engineers were usually asked to make a solution which would magically work despite all the problematic procedures, processes and data which the business doesn't want to change."more concerned with the rules and regulations and less with the actual safety of people"Just a guess, but was this a younger electrician speaking? I have a suspicion, it certainly applies to other jobs, that education thesedays is making people more and more thoroughly in to rule-following-machines with no initiative of their own, the younger often seem more indoctrinated with these managerialism-derived attitudes.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2023, 08:57:23 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on March 28, 2023, 06:49:55 pmIn my opinionated opinion, sparks (electricians) come in two flavours. Those who know exactly what they are doing, understand the practical aspects of installation and, can give you a theory lesson on earth leakage current - written on the back of an envelope. And then there are those who went on a course and payed the fees. Funny how these guys never have anything in their van that is needed for the job they came to do? Not even half a yard of T&E cable. Time served? In prison I suspect.Either species bang on about "the Regs". Some know the regs, even the latest ones, know why the regs exist and how the regs are often written by 'engineers' who have never used a Fluke installation tester in their academic lives. And then there's those who just bang on about the regs. Yes, anyone with overpowering aftershave can use a bleeping plug-in socket tester. Remember, to most people electrics isvoodoo.Regardless of the manpower quality though, you'll own a recent electrical inspection certificate which validates your insuranceAs a side: I note my autocorrection keeps trying to change the word electrician toelectrocution?

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2023, 09:10:00 pm
content: Electricians aside, let's talk about metrologists and the "your one volt is unholy until it is sanctified". Of course it is not, but sometimes they sound like I must have a calibration certificate for my DMM to have a right to refer to its measurements in a discussion.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2023, 09:30:19 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on March 28, 2023, 06:49:55 pmIts not that clear what you are ranting about here.Is this a web forum you are talking about, or someone was doing their job and you interrupted them?

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 12:29:06 am
content: Quote from: paulca on March 28, 2023, 06:49:55 pmSummation: They feel inadequate because their (VERY BASIC) job is shoving wires through holes drilled in beams, tacking them down and terminating them, running them through conduit etc... yeah, been there, done all that utterly deflating nonsense as a teenager (parent's close family friend ran an electrical contractors).It is work, and work that needs doing. An idiot cannot do it - I am not saying they're stupid, but it's hardly MENSA qualification.

author: SmallCog
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 01:17:25 am
content: I find that sparkies working in industrial settings are generally better to deal with than the domestic varietyI presume it's because the industrial sparkies understand that there are things in this world that they don't understand whilst the domestic ones are yet to realise this.For anyone who enjoys a crude giggle (and understand australian) sparkies aren't treated too kindly in the animated series "mining boom" that's freely available on youtube.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 01:50:12 am
content: Quote from: unknownparticle on March 28, 2023, 08:19:20 pmIf the wiring is neat, it was some illicit stuff done by a Technician------notan Engineer, their stuff is as "bodgie" as a sparky!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 02:00:43 am
content: Quote from: shapirus on March 28, 2023, 09:10:00 pmBack in the day, we had an informal concept of "on site" one volt for video signals.In the real world, it did not matter if was really 0.9 v or 1.1 v, as long as everything in the building agreed on the same level.Also, on this forum, God help you if you should dare to be so "ideologically impure" as to suggest that an analog 'scope could be more effective in some particular application than a DSO.The "true believers" will descend on you!!

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 02:16:06 am
content: QuoteAnd due to thebackhandersrules in the uk,said industrial sparks aint allowed to do domestic work unless they pay there bung to an appropriate cartel,even thought often they've not only passed the same exams,but often continued to study to a higher level

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 02:38:52 am
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on March 28, 2023, 08:57:23 pmBack in the day, in Oz, electricians had to go to Tech school & learn actual electrical theory.During the crazy days of the late 1980s/'90s, it was the "received wisdom" that Trade Occupations were going to become obsolete, as "everything would be done with computers", the large State owned public utilities which each year turned out a lot of qualified "Tradies", many of whom who duly went off to work for the Private Sector, were decimated, (& ultimately sold off) slashing their apprentice intakes.The Private Sector whose training was already inadequate in numerical terms, saw what the govt had done & slashed their training, too.When it eventuated that the MBAs & people with Degrees in Computer Science were not all getting jobs in those areas, but some were "flipping burgers", whilst at the same time, "Tradies" were becoming "rare as hen's teeth", a re-think was in order.Governments then asked industry what they needed----sounds good, but industry, who had in the main, not been involved in Technical Training for years, just said "we want people who "can do this, or do that", so the Tech Schools became TAFE, with the new idea being to teach specific skills in short courses "monkey see, monkey do" style, without any serious attempt at an overarching theoretical narrative to link things together.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 02:47:21 am
content: If you think electricians are bad, try dealing with HVAC guys.I was fortunate growing up that one of my favorite uncles was a master electrician, he used to let me help him with projects and taught me all the tricks. I considered going into that line of work but he said I'd be bored, maybe so, I get bored doing what I do now but at least I don't have to put up with a union and the associated thugs.

author: TERRA Operative
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 05:05:11 am
content: On the other side of the coin, as an electrician, having to deal with whiney customers peering over your shoulder thinking they know more than you and trying to tell you how to do your job is why I got out of domestic electrical, and eventually electrical entirely.I've been a sparky across 3 states of Australia and two countries. Now I work in IT and am happy to sit in a data center aloooonnnggggway from any customers...I agree on the HVAC thing though, those guys are fkn cowboys.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 05:25:37 am
content: Sometimes I feel like the world has so many problems that enforcing some code on some random crap is just not worth humanities time and its a detriment to growth.Like if electricity was the only thing that can hurt us, when we solved all other problems, then yes, I would agree with the strictest interpretation, but as it is, I find it amusing that a building spending money on being 100% on the electrical system is like much less safe then a building with a bit of ad hock wiring and money that goes to some contractors that clean ice off the steps and ensure there are no leaks, lights that went out.. and that skilled people get raises they need for retention and quality of life, so the country does not fall apart in 20 years.What I am getting at is that the cost/benefit analysis makes me think that it went crazy. Maybe enforce some cost limits on work if you are enforcing the law so much to pedantic ends.Like the customer was not scammed, the employee got a small raise and they actually threw a pizza party in exchange for leaving the incorrect color wire being routed to auxiliary janitors closet #13 which never had anything plugged into the outlet in 15 years. A main feeder at the hospital is one thing, but necessitating that the lowest skill and intelligence personnel need to rapidly repair a phone charger circuit to seldom used break room is just over the top. Society is just not there yet....I feel like electricans should make as much as they do because they can trouble shoot this kind of stuff and figure out problems and whatnot, if you have 100% code, then why do you need to pay them more. The benefit is that there are massive upkeep benefits towards having skilled electronics trouble shooters because they can deal with nonidealities. There are like so many other problems to deal with.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 06:11:18 am
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on March 28, 2023, 08:57:23 pmIn my lifetime I've seen those old guys who had to know theory to pass the course when they were young. Since then it's all about being able to parse what's written in the regs. In the name of safety. But is it safer? Fuct if I know!Btw, my autocorrector wants to convert your autocorrection to auto-correction.

author: TERRA Operative
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 06:27:07 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on March 29, 2023, 05:25:37 amUntil that highrise building over there burns down due to a faulty electrical termination and kills a bunch of people.Then who is held accountable for that 'ok' amount of ad hock wiring?The regulations weren't put in place by the government, they were originally enforced by the insurance companies. Wiring not up to code? No insurance..It comes down to money in the end. Insurance companies won't want to take the risk on a dangerous policy, dangerous to their bottom line that is.I think it is better to keep the issue of electrical safety small, rather than give it leeway to become one of the big issues, like whether or not to have a pizza party.I'd rather have an alive family and stay out of prison for professional negligence than have an extra pizza or two.Oh and the book and the training gives me a little extra job security (if I go back to electrical work), so there's that aspect that biases me too, beyond not killing people....

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 07:39:29 am
content: Such animosity, I feel quite threatened... or at least I would if I wasn't instead inclined to laugh-out-loud at the general levels of generalisation, ignorance, and stereotypingPeople are people, regardless of what they do for a living; some are highly intelligent, some are less so. Some are dumb as posts. Some are friendly, some are detached. Some are downright hostile.Assuming levels of intelligence, education, and empathy, based on the job that someone does is lazy and arrogant.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 08:08:03 am
content: I was redoing the fuse box and the entire wiring of the house when I bought it. There was a lack of ground wire in most of the rooms, and the fuse box was with fuses, not breakers. So I got two electrician, one was just doing his job, not even talking to me. The other one was doing this as his side job, his main job being a magician. I really had a good talk with him, about the tools, how is it going with life, and helped him with a bunch of simple tasks.Quote from: TERRA Operative on March 29, 2023, 06:27:07 amIMHO the issue is not with you doing something at home. The issue is with other people (including future you). You expect the electrical system of a place to work in a certain way. When you plug into an outlet, you expect something to happen, or when you flip a switch. If you do something that's outside the code, or you don't know the code, unexpected things lead to unsafe situations.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 08:17:21 am
content: Quote from: TERRA Operative on March 29, 2023, 06:27:07 amWhile this may be true in some places I think it is over stated.In the UK it is more likely your bank that will ask for an electrical certificate, not the insurance. The only instance I have persnonal experience of, the bank asked the buyer to produce an electrical test certificate as a condition on the mortgage application. They got stung for £850 for a new consumer unit and a complete rewire of ALL the recessed 12V spot lights in the ceilings. "We can't have low voltage, 'bell wire' circuits anymore, they all have to come out and fire save 240V downlighters put in."My bank never asked. Nor did my insurance company. Actually, I believe there was a tick box for a recent (last 5 years) electrical test report and I left it un-ticked. My insurance costs me about £190 a year.Further reading into problem cases like this and in the UK the insurance company need to prove negligence to attribute liability to you.As a contrived example, lets say I install the inverter myself (I am actually hirering a local spark to help). Lets say I made a mistake, lets say when the smoldering remains of my house steaming in the morning light and the fire cheif says the fire started at the inverter and looks like an electrical installation fault. Then, yes, the insurance company would have questions for me. They could imply negligence, such that it was not installed by a profressional. The legal term "Reckless" can then be employed if they can prove I knew it was dangerous to do alone, but did it anyway. Reckless makes to negligent as there is duty of care as a home owner. Thus they can pin an amount % of liability onto me.As the fire was not started deliberately, the amount of liability is proportional.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 09:27:10 am
content: The particular regulations, in the UK, regarding the inverter are the recently updated ESS for PEI. Electricity storage systems for prosumer electrical installations.I'm sure you guys are somewhat familiar with how these BS standards go. They go to the N'th detail on every aspect of safety. Then they go and consult with engineers in the industry. Instead they seem to speak to product sales people who when asked their profressional engineering recommendations just copy and paste the specs from the latest, greatest, most expensive product. (licking their lips and rubbing their hands at all the people who will suddenly be forced to buy from them).The amount of details is highlighted in the test and compliance certificates they want for LFP cells. They want tests showing individual cells have been tested with a 0.38Ohm short, having a 9.1Kg hammer dropped on them, being dropped from 1.5m onto a corner and so forth. Basically a copy and paste of a spec sheet for an automotive grade cell sold by which ever commercial outfit did the consulting.The worst bit is. The scope of the regulations shifted from "roof top solar" and "grid tie" inverters to include any and all energy storage systems whether they feed in or not, regardless of voltage, power, AC or DC. They are ALL covered.My basic questions was, given my limited installation purpose, how much of it applies to me? What do I NEED to do, such that I don't get ripped off paying for an OTT install I don't need.This goes off the rails because the inverter I am installing is part of a range which, can, technically be configured to "feed out" the AC IN. I am still left unsure if this is or is not the case. The inverter is part of a large range of inverters which go from 12V/500W up to 48V/5000W and parallel and series way up further. Some units are designed for caravans and some for full rooftop solar rigs.The documentation in question is a £70 publication. I have found the DNO copies and the government EREC reviews. The regulations covers a VAST scope of installations from single electric cars all the way up to 5MW CCGT plants. Of course it's a tedious tome of forward and backward references. "Given Annex A.2 exclusions under part 4.3.2, 5.4.6 and 7.2.9...." and things like that. They are 300+ page documents. It is very difficult to extract out the simple question "What does and does not apply to me exactly?""Seek professional help."I tried this.Solar installer: "We only do full package deals.", "We don't install customer purchased equipment", "We only provide out own equipment", "We don't do DC/Storage/Off-Grid".Local Sparks: "Don't touch solar", "Don't touch DC", "Not qualified", "No idea mate.", "Not interested.", "£3000", "6 months at least mate I'm booked out by the solar installers"So I need to come part way out to find WHAT exactly I need. Then I can approach more local sparks, show them the documentation etc. and be able to explain in their language what I need and what I DONT need.The worst case is, I find a spark to do this, but he wants to do it, 110% to code and won't accept the current aged house electrical system as a start point. I'll be on the hook for a complete consumer unit update, meter board rewire and probably a few earthing tails/bonding replaced or put in place in the first instance. That all does need done. However I do not want to couple the two projects. I basically want to treat the inverter/batteries like an RV/Caravan/Motorhome/boat. The only difference is the fixed earthing.It was that later point, "earthing". Once you touch that stuff on these forums the sparks get really upset. I'm not saying that I have a full understanding of building earthing, DNO earthing, TT/TN-S/TT-NS etc. etc. Single earth versus multiple earth and soil ohm-age considerations etc. Mine field (pun?). I figure they get so upset if you ask questions about this because 99% of them don't have a clue either, they work by the rules of thumb that got them through their tech course exams and only do their homework and sums for particular high profile jobs. "So how DARE you try and understand something that I as a 20 year professional can't understand."In my case, one of them said I needed a separate earth for the island side of the inverter. I took this to mean a TT arrangement with house and complained that was not ideal for safety reasons and ground currents flowing between devices on different phases. BOOM! That set a few red facers off. The original "nice" spark thankfully explained it is because the island cannot "rely" on the DNO earth during a grid fault. Both earths can be bonded, but there must be a local ground rod. Also a spark should be able to tell me if I do indeed have a buried lead cable install, which changes things a little in my favour.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 09:46:49 am
content: I also need to put my hand up in being partly to blame. I'm not changing for anyone, but I like to plot a path of "generalism" in knowledge while dropping off that "motorway" into cities, towns and little villages of specific topics and industries when I need to.However, the analogy holds that some people in those local areas of knowledge consider me a nosey foreigner/out of towner. What annoys them more is that I will still return back to that "motorway" and travel far afield to many towns and cities. This means that my terminology and language usually reverts to "generic" style or using the lowest common denominator terms and... critically, not that particularly "towns" dialect.Me: "Spade..."Them: "We call it a monopeedal manual digging implement!"Me: OFFS.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 09:55:44 am
content: This is true of a lot of trades. A good one I've seen recently is the air conditioning trade in the UK being up in arms about a major UK company selling fit-it-yourself air con. These systems use propane as a refrigerant which has negligible global warming potential and therefore, legally, you do not need to be qualified to install or maintain these systems.Yet the trade board is very upset at this development. Nevermind the fact that we let people run portable gas grills off propane, or refrigerators, or any number of other things, apparently DIYers fitting a propane system with 400g of refrigerant within it is a recipe for disaster.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 10:05:02 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on March 29, 2023, 01:50:12 amJust so.Once, 40 years ago, some of my wiring inside a prototype electric door mechanism was criticised as not being especially neat. I agreed, pointing out that I wasn't a technician. I also pointed out something in the design that a technician might have missed. The designer didn't want to acknowledge the issue; the prototype was never reliable.If I need a diagnosis of a medical problem, I want a doctor to do it. If I want blood taken or a leg plastered, I want a nurse to do it. Vive la difference!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 10:11:12 am
content: Quote from: TERRA Operative on March 29, 2023, 06:27:07 amThat's too often forgotten.A similar example was used to wind the masses up to prepare them to vote for Brexit: "The EU mandates how straight cucumbers must be".True. But they did it because the growers and shops wanted them to.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 10:13:05 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on March 29, 2023, 07:39:29 amPrecisely.I like the Middle European variant of that: "Mensch ist mensch", the whole world over.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 10:16:08 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 29, 2023, 10:05:02 amYou know that's fair. Because when it comes to physically installing the inverter, I actually want the spark to do it and a large part of that IS that it will be done more "tidy" and maybe with aesthetic pride if I'm lucky. For the two or three aspects I show an interest in, he will have another 10 I never thought about of which only maybe 5 I would have found out "the hard way" mid job with the wrong tools and supplies.I'm just trying to be an educated consumer in understanding what I need and not what I will be sold.EDIT: I went off scaring myself looking for people blowing up these inverters. It will not surprise you that almost all of them came down to the simple things. Stuffing only 1/4" of stranded AC 30Amp cable into spring clip posts on the inverter.... yep. LOL. The same guy after having to ASK Victron why it went on fire and receiving the advice that the wire had not enough run out and should be sleived or ferruled then started questioning the use of ferrules with stranded cable giving some whacky reason about the copper spreading out and making more contact... I can see him setting fire to a few more things.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 10:17:49 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on March 29, 2023, 08:08:03 amDaughter is having alotof work done on the house she is moving into, including rebuilding two kitchens.Sparky damn near electrocuted himself.He had isolated the ringmain in one kitchen, and checked sockets weren't live. He started removing one socket, and got a nasty shock. That one socket was on a different ringmain.Yes, he acknowledges he should have checked 100% of the sockets, but only checked 90% of them. "There, but for the grace of God, go I".

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 10:27:06 am
content: Quote from: paulca on March 29, 2023, 10:16:08 amIt goes both ways: you each catch things the other doesn't catch.In general, neither an engineer/doctor or a technician/nurse issufficient. Both arenecessary.I distrust the knowledge and judgement of those that don't realise that.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 11:12:42 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 29, 2023, 10:17:49 amSeen Artisan Electrics do similar in a kitchen job. Discovered "just in time" the circuit was borrowing a live via a boiler install by a plumber. If the boiler is switched on, the ring main became live again. It was just an after thought to check something unrelated that made him aware there was power. Might have been a microwave clock flashing or something.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 11:44:55 am
content: Quote from: paulca on March 29, 2023, 11:12:42 amAh yes. Plumbing.Daughter was in a 1930s house that had been converted into student accomodation.The boiler failed completely, but they still had hot water in one bathroom. No, it wasn't an electric shower etc. The only possible explanation was that the water for that bathroom was coming from the adjacent house. Don't ask for any details, since there isn't a (rational) explanation.(I'll ignore where the electricity entered the house, and the sparky refused to approach it - sensibly saying the electricity supply company would have to touch it)

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 11:51:51 am
content: For me I tend to set myself boundaries. If it involves high voltage (>50V) I either find another way or I fully research the application until I feel I understand it.For mains 240VAC, I will do things which are considered "temporary" or "minimal". Like replacing a light switch, putting a double plug onto an unused shower circuit would be minimal. Running 240V up my DC 3 core as a test, might be a temporary class item. Something that only needs to be safe within the time bounds of my elevated interest in it. In that it's a "Lab" style feature that requires technical management to be safe.Anything that needs to be permenant, especially to the extent it would be considered as "part of the estate" during a house sale, needs to be done by a certified spark. Anything in the meter box/consumer unit. Anything involving "structural wiring".99% of my home automation stuff I added can be removed in a matter of hours and previous dumb functionality restored. It's all DIY.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 12:38:25 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on March 29, 2023, 11:12:42 amAnyone who touches a fitting without checking that actual fitting is not live is a fool. It can be hard with some fully wired in fittings, but things like lights and sockets are trivial to check. Things like lights are specifically wired up to be intertwined between circuits, so a single breaker going doesn't leave you in total darkness.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 12:43:19 pm
content: QuoteAnd could have been cured in a few minutes without ripping half the house apart.

author: TERRA Operative
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 01:56:29 pm
content: Ah the golden rule. Test before you touch. Many issues arise when that rule is broken, and it's almost always directly the fault of the person involved.No test, no touch, no dead...

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 02:13:20 pm
content: "It's live until youproveit isn't" worksmostof the time. I did once discover a lighting circuit in a village sports hall that was fed from each end, from two different DBs...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 03:14:58 pm
content: Quote from: TERRA Operative on March 29, 2023, 01:56:29 pmSome people are so used to shocks they consider touch to be the test.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 03:57:20 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 29, 2023, 03:14:58 pm9V batteries, yes. With my tongue. I can give you a SoC to 1 significant figure.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 04:45:57 pm
content: I tend to have a lot of respect of old electricians who survived 40 years dealing with mains.The younger ones are the worst, they got 2 weeks certification class and they think they know everything.Normally I show them my lab as first thing, once they see all that equipment they automagically change attitude.Remarkable monkey level for internet installation muppets, one of them told me there is 1000dB attenuation in the coax cable between the basement and the third floor.I did not respond, it was not worth the time and energy.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 04:55:27 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 29, 2023, 09:55:44 amPropane is an excellent replacement for R22, it has almost identical properties aside from being flammable, in fact it offers slightly improved performance in R22 systems. It is actually a federal crime here to use it as a refrigerant, although that doesn't stop some people from doing it. Instead of switching to expensive R410 which is a greenhouse gas and new equipment they could have just switched to propane when phasing out R22. Personally I don't think R22 should have ever been phased out in the first place, it has only 5% of the ozone depletion potential of R12 and modern regulations require fixing leaks and recovering used refrigerant. The big problem with R12 is it was used EVERYWHERE, including as a propellant in aerolsol cans.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 07:29:27 pm
content: Talk of some of these out of the training course electricians reminded me of Isaac Asimov and the Foundation books. I recently had to do a PAT training course (online) and I found the 2hrs a complete waste of time. I got more info from the quick start guide that came with my seaward pat tester.I'm the UK amongst the trades it's often joked that electricians are over paid. Supposedly they clean tools with £50 notes etc.With the metrology snobbery. Yeah I have been known to be like that. But it's my job so I do get a little sensitive up about it. I don't mean to be a twat about it. Just finished a two day grilling from the assessors and they take it really seriously.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 07:47:40 pm
content: Another group of dullards that think they are so special are locksmiths. Although there are virtually zero legislated requirements other than a business license, they think their trade is so special that they make up their own rules that have no substance.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 07:48:50 pm
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on March 29, 2023, 07:29:27 pmI found and find his 1957 novella "Profession" more useful; I recommend it to anyone thinking about career futures. Especially good w.r.t. the engineer vs technician debates.It is available online.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2023, 01:34:46 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 29, 2023, 10:05:02 amOh, don't worry, a tech won't miss the problem a few years down the track when the thing fails.In the meantime, the manufacturer will have "moved on" & be happy having ignored that pesky EE back then!EEs can definitely miss things, though---one such chap of my acquaintance, designed a really nice, neat interface to convert a output contact function from a remote control from"made for the duration of the function"to"momentary".It worked fine, except that he had assumed that the remote control was"made for the duration, etc", when in fact, it always was"momentary".He was a nice bloke, with rather "a lot on his plate", so we just modified the remote control to match his interface.There were only two such remote controls in existence, so, except for the time used for the (simple) mod, accommodatinghis interface was pretty much "revenue neutral", & arguably offered a better match to the "domestic" CD player it now controlled, than a basic relay closure did.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2023, 01:57:38 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 29, 2023, 07:48:50 pmI'm interested in why you are attracted to that story. You can read so many things into it. Its a totally unrealistic tale. The Social Scientists are second rate, and not much much lower.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2023, 07:55:41 am
content: Quote from: coppice on March 30, 2023, 01:57:38 amA fiction story being unrealistic? Who would have thought it?!The very significant difference between someone that istaught how to work on existing equipment and follow best practicescreates new types of equipment and defines best practicesBoth are beneficial and necessary.The required strengths (skills/personality/competence) and allowable weaknesses are completely different.Be aware of the differences, and choose accordingly.Too many people on this forum don't understand the differences between engineers/doctors and technicians/nurses. That story is an alternative way of getting the concept across

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2023, 01:43:27 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 29, 2023, 02:47:21 amThe HVAC tech I know (now an embedded software engineer at Daikin) is very nice. But she's about my age so definitely not the average HVAC tech at the time.Quote from: paulca on March 29, 2023, 09:27:10 amInstall the batteries and inverter on a cart with wheels and use ordinary plugs and sockets for connecting to the mains and load, then it would be a UPS and not part of the building.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2023, 02:05:26 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on March 30, 2023, 01:43:27 pmI am tempted to run it this way, at very least in the interim. Plugged into a plug socket if and only if/when I want to charge the batteries.It arrived. It's tiny. It's the size of loaf of bread. I thought it was the size of a suitcase! I am still waiting on the other 4 cells to arrive before I can even attempt to power it on.It's not a permanent fixed installation on either end. It would exactly like I had just parked the caravan in the drive way and connected it's ESS system to the wall socket to charge it.There is a real potential the DNO phones me back and just says it's so small they aren't interested, knock myself out.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2023, 02:46:51 pm
content: Take a razor blade, gently cut your self somewhere on your hand so you "slowly drip" bleed, now take a 9volt or even a 1,5V battery and let the poles go into the cut.Now, the TREMENDOUS pain you will feel in you "entire arm" is profoundly different from a AC voltage pain , like temporary licking on a 240 outlet.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2023, 05:46:47 pm
content: Quote from: MT on March 30, 2023, 02:46:51 pmHow afraid should we all be?

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 01:03:38 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on March 30, 2023, 05:46:47 pmAsk the electrician who told me this story.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 08:48:46 pm
content: Why are people so worried about 230V mains?It's only a thump. Doesn't really hurt that much.So far the calibrator has caught me with 1kV DC but no real current, I pressed the standby button but pulled the leads before it had ramped down. The PAT tester test box got me once with 230 from the mains, I had chosen to use unshielded test leads as the others kept popping out, I unplugged from the test meter before the test box. The best so far was a flash tester that had the foot switch shorted and unknown to me it was on and set to 13kV, I leant over a steel table to plug it in, damn that gave me a thump. At home I isolate and test before touching stuff but it's easy at work to forget the stuff I am dealing with as we are normally well protected from the dangers.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 10:07:38 pm
content: well, its been known for killing people occasionally

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 11:04:45 pm
content: Even 120 VAC mains in North America have been known to be lethal.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 11:08:16 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on March 31, 2023, 11:04:45 pmEven the +-55VAC system used for construction site equipment in the UK can be lethal. It depends to a great extent on how well connected you are to the power. You are more likely to be OK on a cool day than when you are hot and sweaty.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 11:16:20 pm
content: When I was much younger, I was told that the world record for low voltage electrocution was at an electroplating plant, but I don't remember the voltage (maybe 48 V DC?).In medical equipment, where a patient in a hospital bed is wired to the equipment, the US UL requirements (as well as the European regulations) are quite strict.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 12:33:57 am
content: Quote from: Zucca on March 29, 2023, 04:45:57 pmI was told once by an electrical engineer over ten years ago who use to hire electricians from colleges and universities that many of them knew how to do the paper work and answer the questions but had no understanding of what they were doing on the job they were hired for and couldn't put two cables together let alone wire up the controls.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 12:41:02 am
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on March 31, 2023, 08:48:46 pmPeople can and do get killed by 120V mains. A lot more people get a shock and survive but that is no excuse for a cavalier attitude. If you have sweaty hands and happen to be grasping a grounded object with one hand and come into contact with a live conductor with the other that is pretty close to worst case.I heard a quote many years ago "There are old electricians and there are bold electricians, but there are no old, bold electricians"Electricity can kill you, even relatively modest domestic stuff, it's prudent to respect it and treat it with caution.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 12:42:35 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on April 01, 2023, 12:33:57 amI don't think I've ever met an electrician that had a university degree. Here there are two paths they typically take, trade school, or more commonly a union apprenticeship. The training is very hands on.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 12:55:27 am
content: Well this electrical engineer started at a college and was actually working at a security firm too and they did mostly practical there in the 80's. They installed or built long distance power supplies to controls and electric door locks at the time. Unfortunately in the 1990's I heard they got rid ofthe electrical engineering stuffthat stuff and some people who did theirs that I spoke in the 2000's said to me it mostly academic for them and they did very little practical until they started working.I was at this building firm about 6 years ago, I went with this electrician to network cable the bosses house whilst he ran some 28? amp cooker cable in a ring main (56 amp both ways) for an electric oven in a new kitchen that they extended. He had this assistant who just passed his course from the local college which they got from the Job Center but the electrician didn't like him or want him there. Apparently he was on his phone most of the time tapping away, didn't help the electrician and refused to clean up. Well I cleaned up after myself with the electrician at the end of the day.So after I finished my stuff I helped the electrician run some of that mains cable through the ceiling of the extension so it didn't get tangled whilst he was upstairs pulling it. Whilst that was happening the lad was in the extension sitting on a work stool staring at his phone looking comically like a little mouse.I heard them at the office talking about keeping this assistant enrolled there just for his qualifications without him actually coming in (I don't know for what purpose it was suppose to serve them but I didn't ask) as the electricians didn't want him there anymore and called him a waste of a space and they let him go after a year.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 04:09:30 am
content: Working in an assistant position, I noticed right away the licenced guys were keenly aware, of safety and legal responsibilities, (as it should be). I needed only minor instruction, for some repetitive outlet assembly tasks. They were very close, to regular interior carpenters, building some structural stuff (underneath) boxes, etc.Those folks always, always took the time, to do things right,...as a matter of professional pride. To this day, I sometimes venture (Google Earth) back to view that 5 story building, downtown San Francisco...it's a lawyer's office now.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 04:31:04 am
content: I know this video is linked elsewhere on the forum, but it seems appropriate to link it here too, given the talk around lethality of various voltages and currents: