UK broadband... 3 of 5 copper wires cut resulted in decreased bandwidth...? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: ricko_uk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 01:23:25 am
content: Hi,I am in the UK (no idea if this works different in other parts of the world) and the neighbour while cutting some plants inadvertently cut the broadband/telephone copper cable going into my house that was hanging a little loose off the wall.When I tried to patch it up I reconnected only two of the 5 wires because they were the only two that were colour coded (orange and white). The other three wires were also white but a different shade (but all three the same shade). That colouring (or lack thereof) in itself which is a bit baffling... or perhaps they are all supposed to be the same white and it is just manufacturing tolerances variation??Anyway... when I reconnected those 2 of the 5 wires, the broadband started working again but instead of the usual 35Mbs (which the neighbour is still currently getting) it only runs at 5 to 8. When I called the telecom company they can also see there is a fault.My question is, while waiting for the telecom engineer to fix it (a few days), how can I try to fix it myself?Is it ok/safe to rejoin any of the white wires together randomly? I doubt it - but then again why using the same wire colors in the first place (perhaps the modem automatically recognises and adjust the pairs and polarity like in some Ethernet ICs)?If not, what is the best and safest way for me to find which of the white wires to reconnect to which one?Thank you

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 02:08:25 am
content: If its DSL it's generally over a single pair. The white wires are either unused or have some other purpose. How did you splice it? It could be a bad splice is degrading the SNR too much to operate at the maximum speed.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 10:12:00 am
content: To the best of my knowledge the white wires are suspension elements - they give the cable it's tensile strength. I don't think they play any role in terms of telephony or broadband.I don't know why the bandwidth has dropped off. It might be worth remaking the connections. Also, restart the router in case it needs to do some handshaking with the exchange.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 12:12:41 pm
content: Is the phone over copper or already switched to over broadband? If the former and working the two connected wires are the correct pair. Sometimes a dodgy joint can be (temporarily?) "fixed" by having ringing current through it so try ringing the landline number.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 12:25:32 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 17, 2024, 10:12:00 amIn the UK the overhead drop wires from a telephone pole to the house used to have two copper coated steel conductors. The steel gave tensile strength, and avoided creep in hot weather, the the copper coating was the conductor. I understand this often worked poorly for ADSL, so a lot of it was replaced by cables with separate steel and copper wires inside. So, you might find either is present in an installation, depending on when the cable was installed.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 01:24:58 pm
content: It´s possible that DSL runs with heavily degraded performance if one of the wires in the wire pair is interrupted somewhere. In that case the capacitive coupling of the wires enables some transmission on some frequency bands, and if you have good luck it´s enough to establish a bad DSL connection.That means: Try to trace the wires as far as possible. Measure e.g. the voltage against earth and see if you find some unexplainable variations.Keep in mind that the line up to your phone connection usually is the property of the carrier. I don't think it´s generally wrong to contribute to searching for faults, but please be careful to don't interfere with anything that´s not yours...

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 04:47:56 pm
content: In high speed /RF world a splice in the transmission line will cause impedance change (unless professionally repaired) because the line is not uniform anymore. A bump in impedance will cause energy reflection and an interferrance pattern. The drop in Data delivery speed may be caused by such impedance discontinuity due to reflections and/or large number of re-transmission requests.

author: Sorama
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 05:04:19 pm
content: The telco’s that offer DSL services czn remotely check the signal quality at the modem (TDR ?).So you should call your provider and ask them to check the signal quality. You will know at once if there is a cable issue.

author: Spuddevans
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 05:11:44 pm
content: Openreach can and does detect when there is a short or other cable problem with ADSL lines, and their system automatically reduces the bandwidth when that has been detected.The only way to get the original bandwidth restored is to contact them and ask for it to be restored, but if they have logged a fault, you may have to wait until they come and inspect/fix the physical line before they lift the restrictions.Tim

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 07:12:57 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 17, 2024, 12:25:32 pmGoodness me, you're going back a bit. Dropwire No 3, 5 and 6 (if I recall correctly) used copper-plated steel conductors, but they were superseded a long time before broadband was even a thing. To be clear, that doesn't mean it was replaced routinely - only if the line was worked on, and usually only if it was faulty. Just a few weeks ago I had the original dropwire to my house replaced with optical, and it wasDropwire No 1.That was a copper alloy pair, which was strong enough to be self-supporting. One of the pair was tin-plated to give it a silver appearance, thus the polarity of the line could be observed.The move from that to Dropwire 3 and 5 (and later 6) happened back in the 1960s when the price of copper went sky high. Post Office Telephones' response was to move from copper dropwire to copper-plated steel, and copper conductors in underground cables to aluminium. Both were disastrous decisions.Micro-cracks in the plastic insulation of the early steel dropwires (3 and 5) allowed water ingress, and despite the copper plating, corrosion of the steel took hold, leading to high resistance and noise faults, and eventually complete disconnection. Another problem was abrasion: the insulation on Dropwire 3 and 5 was very thin, and it was easily worn away when it went through trees or rubbed against a lamppost, for example. The failures of Dropwires 3 and 5 was a massive problem - it caused countless faults across the whole overhead network which continued for twenty years, maybe more. It must have cost untold millions to the Post Office. The Post Offices' response was Dropwire No 6, which was essentially the same as Dropwire 3 but with significantly thicker insulation. Hmm... not the most inspired decision.Anyway, by the 1980s the company went back to copper conductors with the introduction of Dropwire 10. This had two pairs and a strengthening element. Subsequent dropwires continued this basic principle. It was a success - the reliability skyrocketed and repair costs plummeted. Modern dropwire has three steel wires for tensile strength (white) and one, two or four copper pairs. Oh, and of course there is now an optical fibre dropwire.Briefly, the adoption of aluminium conductors in underground cables caused many problems. Unlike copper, the aluminium was very prone to work hardening. This made the crimped joints very prone to failing when physically disturbed, which happened whenever a cable joint was opened when tracing a pair or making a repair. Also cables running along roadsides were subjected to enough vibration to cause embrittlement of the aluminium, again causing numerous random disconnection faults. As with the dropwires I discussed, the 1980s saw a move back to all-copper conductors.

author: dave j
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 07:15:00 pm
content: If fibre to the premises is available in your area it might be worth checking if is cheaper to switch to that than getting your existing line repaired.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 07:32:26 pm
content: Quote from: dave j on September 17, 2024, 07:15:00 pmWhy would the OP be on the hook for repair of damage done by his neighbour?

author: dave j
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 08:19:05 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on September 17, 2024, 07:32:26 pmOops, I misread that bit. Regardless, it still may be an opportunity to get upgraded to a faster connection.

author: ricko_uk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 10:04:59 pm
content: Thank you all for your feedback.About "Why would the OP be on the hook for repair of damage done by his neighbour?" the neighbours are an old couple and don't seem to have a lot of money. They asked me if I was willing to contribute to the cost of buying some gravel to place on the common path because during rain it gets very muddy. And it just was £20... An engineer call out to repair it might be a few hundred pounds...Re. splicing... I did splice it so there is no stub but like mentioned in one of the replies the insulation difference (i.e. variation in capacitance) might affect it and also the carrier might have limited the bandwidth after detecting the fault. The latter might be the biggest possible cause to the much lower speed because since he cut the wire, a few times yesterday it disconnected for a couple of minutes at a time.Thank you all as always

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 10:05:49 pm
content: i was on dsl before years ago, the copper line got corroded over time, and began to cause glitches ... and with tdr tester the tech found the problems at 5m of the totem ... switched pairs and never got problemsbut here we work with 2 wires not 5 ? unless you talk about wires in the walls (witch is 6 on rj11) ?? not sure i follow ?and the safest IS : don't touch telecom stuff, it could turn against you, IT IS NOT YOUR PROPERTY even in your wall (s)to add: if you pay for an provider, it is his responsibility to repair such equipment, and or bill the one(s) responsible for the damagesbut once again if you play in this, it could once again turn against you for any damages or "non official" repair procedures

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 10:28:13 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 17, 2024, 07:12:57 pmWe had a new line installed, with fresh overhead wiring from the pole outside, in the mid 80s that consisted of figure of 8 plastic with a pair of copper coated steel wires inside.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 10:29:49 am
content: Quote from: coppice on September 17, 2024, 10:28:13 pmDropwire 6, then. Apparently DW 10 hadn't been rolled out yet, or maybe they were using up all the old stock. That's still 40 years ago, so ancient history.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 11:11:36 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 18, 2024, 10:29:49 amThe latest OpenReach dropwire installed here is also figure-of-8, but is a combined fibre/POTS drop! The copper(?) pair is not connected at either end, as are all similar drops in this area. Doubtless, this version will be the ultimate in performance and reliability of all the POTS dropwires ever!They left the old POTS dropwire in place, for now. It was repaired soon afterwards - vegetation rubbing through the insulation. I'm surprised I wasn't moved to IP service.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 04:49:03 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on September 18, 2024, 11:11:36 amActually I don't think it is. What you think is a copper pair appears to be a very stiff fibrous material, not unlike resin bonded glass fibres. It certainly isn't metallic. I've got a length on my sideboard and have just attacked it with a sharp knife.It's interesting: a figure-of-eight with the optical fibre right in the very middle, and the two suspensory elements either side. As you pull the two suspensory elements apart it reveals the optical fibre, although it is well wrapped in some sort of protective white material. This looks like fantastic dropwire: extremely tough against abrasion, no metallic elements, and the optical fibre fully guarded.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 06:14:33 pm
content: No, it’s not that cable, I’ve seen it around too. I think it’s Corning ROC, with Kevlar strength members. My drop is labelled CORNING POL STR, and the two parts of the 8 are different sizes. The non-fibre side is definitely metallic, but looking at the pictures I took at the time, it may be a strength member.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 06:39:27 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on September 18, 2024, 06:14:33 pmAh, forgive me, I jumped to the wrong conclusion. I've only got a two-foot length, and on it is printed:CORNING OPTICAL CABLE 11/2023 (pic of a phone) 1 SMF BTFI don't know what Kevlar looks like, but the suspensory elements are extremely stiff and strong, white in colour, and it is possible to shave minute fibres of it with a sharp knife. I think you are right: Kevlar or functional equivalent.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 06:51:03 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on September 17, 2024, 02:08:25 amMy DSL modem uses two copper pairs for increased speed. If I lose one, the speed goes down but it should be able to do almost 50M on a single pair because I'm close to a drop.Perhaps the OP is further away so he only gets 8M now..Silly question for OP, but have you tried turning it off and on again? (The DSL modem)

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 09:45:03 am
content: Quote from: Kim Christensen on September 18, 2024, 06:51:03 pmTwo small points.... the OP has only lost the white wires, and they aren't used electrically, just for tensile strength. Also, I did recommend the OP reboot the router, but I don't know if he read that bit. The slower speed currently remains a mystery.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 04:25:59 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 18, 2024, 10:29:49 amAncient history? You do realise that in mature affluent areas of the UK, where a huge amount of underground telephony cable was laid in the 1930s, most of the homes are still served by those century old cables.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 05:34:47 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 19, 2024, 04:25:59 pmOf course I realise it - I worked my entire career in BT! Having said that, I question your assertions around "mature affluent", "huge amount" and "most". Weazelly words - give us some hard data. You know, like I have in my posts.What's up with you - do you have some need to have the last word or something? An ego thing, maybe?

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 06:51:54 pm
content: It's a fast ethernet, not broadband. Even a schoolchild can guess.Quote from: ricko_uk on September 17, 2024, 01:23:25 amChecking random connections is completely safe.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 06:59:27 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 19, 2024, 05:34:47 pmThere's nothing weazily if you actually turn on your brain. In my lifetime the majority of new builds have had underground telephone wires fed into them. Existing homes are different. Wealthier areas had their phone lines underground from the 1930s on, both for existing homes and new builds. Poorer areas, like the part of North London where I grew up, didn't have the density of phone subscribers to justify that much digging up of roads until the 1970s. When I was a kid the telephone poles along our street still had a mass of separate pairs going down the street, dropping off at the few houses who could afford a phone. Those were only replaced with underground cables down the street, and a simple overhead drop cable to each house, in about 1970. This coincided with phones changing from something unusual in the area, to something most homes had. People had to wait a couple of years to get a party line installed. They then had to wait another couple of years before they could have the luxury of their very own pair.So, the wealthy mature areas have a lot of underground telephony cabling nearly a century old. Poorer areas didn't get underground cables until much later, so they don't have much cabling of a similar age. Immature areas (i.e. ones with lots of new builds) have cables as old as the home.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 08:28:10 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 19, 2024, 06:59:27 pmThe thing is, none of this is in dispute. The existence of 90-year-old plant has no bearing on my statement that the 1980s are "ancient history". They are, and the 1930s are even more ancient.This has turned into an "angels on a pinhead" debate about the meaning of the word "ancient". It's irrelevant to the thread and completely fruitless to pursue it further (and yet something tells me you'll want the last word - you are welcome).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 08:33:09 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 19, 2024, 08:28:10 pmThose two dates make a big difference. A 1980s cable is very little different from one made today. A 1930s cable uses a who set of different materials. Its quite impressive that the telephony cables of that period are still seviceable, as nothing from the power industry is.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 08:47:20 pm
content: Back to somewhere near the topic....You might have noticed how OpenReach has moved back towards overhead distribution for the fibre-to-the-home (FTTH) rollout. I know of customers with u/g telephony feeds being given an overhead fibre feed. One customer (a friend of mine) has a customer-provided duct from the street side to his property. It is a premium property and the owner considers an overhead feed to be aesthetically unacceptable. OpenReach happily put their u/g telephone cable through the duct around 15 years ago, but have refused to do the same with their fibre, insisting on an overhead feed to his property. He considers this to be extraordinary, as do I.New poles are going in all over the place, mostly because it is very much cheaper to go overhead for the "drop".I'm not sure why OpenReach are reluctant to use existing u/g feeds to properties, but I could guess. I wonder if the ducts were not fitted with a draw rope after the initial installation. In that case, pushing another cable through the duct would be extremely difficult. There is something I'm not sure about: what proportion of u/g telephony drops are direct buried rather than in a duct. Direct burial for the new fibre cable would be expensive and disruptive, especially on mature properties (as opposed to new builds, where it would be quite straightforward).Personally I don't find overhead distribution problematic aesthetically, but I know some people do. OpenReach are responding to a government initiative to push out fibre broadband (or rather, Gigabit broadband) across the country, so I suspect are getting an easy ride from a planning point of view.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 09:05:59 pm
content: Historically, 'E' side* cables were lead, with paper-wrapped copper conductors inside. They were fed with air from the exchange, under modest pressure, to keep water out if the lead should be breached. Each cable had an air flow meter and every month I had the job of reading and reporting the readings. The idea was that an increase in air flow would signal a breach and trigger an investigation before the breach got big enough to flood the cable.It was beneficial if the manholes or joint boxes were flooded, because all that was required was to look for a stream of bubbles. Otherwise, fault location took longer.*'E'-side cables are those going from the exchange to the cabinets (PCPs - primary connection points). 'D'-side cables go from the cabinets to the pillars (SCCPs - secondary cross-connection points) and DPs (distribution points, which are terminal blocks at the top of a pole or a joint in the pavement).From the 1960s, and possibly earlier, the 'D'-side cables were polyethylene-insulated and grease-filled (actually vaseline, I believe) to prevent water from entering and travelling through the cable). I'm not sure what type of cable was used for 'D'-side cables before plastic insulation was available. This would be the era before dropwires, when the drops were pairs of open wires. Perhaps someone could advise? Certainly, 'D'-side cables weren't pressurised.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 09:26:02 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 19, 2024, 08:47:20 pmMaybe they were so delighted when overhead fibre became feasible that they've only stocked up on the hardware to provide overhead installations.Openreach have frequently said something will happen quickly, based on their being a tube in place, and then found the tube has been crushed over the years. We had a very long delay in getting anything faster than ADSL in this village, because of crushed ducts, and some of the other villages in this area had similar experiences. Maybe this is making them prefer a quick and easy to replace last 0.01 mile link.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 09:39:03 pm
content: QuotePerhaps it's because they don't know where the cable is going so have no control over potential damage. Also, if there does turn out to be a problem then an overhead is easier to get to and fix than underground down some random pipe.Or, of course, could be jobsworth following the letter rather than intent. If someone higher up has said they will do overhead to save on making holes, then overhead it is going to be regardless of any useful holes.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 09:43:23 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on September 19, 2024, 06:51:54 pmNonsense. There is no fast ethernet to residential houses in the UK.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 09:50:27 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on September 19, 2024, 09:43:23 pmAnyone reading this thread has experienced the effect of breaking one pair 100 times, and the author of the thread describes exactly what is happening. If you have experienced this effect on broadband, why don't you give an example of your unique experience (that no one else has)?

author: ricko_uk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 09:59:03 pm
content: Yes, I have rebooted the router.BUT....After reading all your replies, and double checked the connection, it turned out that I originally connected the orange and white wires to the orange and"not same shade white"wire contrary to what I was initially thought I did...(and they are solid steel instead of stranded, contrary to the other two)The good thing is that it now runs at 3 times the previous speed (24MBps instead of.The strange thing is that it now still doesn't run at full 35MBps (despite a proper splice).The weird thing is that, despite the other white wires being only for strength as some of you wrote, it did work for a at 8MBps...??!!! Like just the capacitance between wires was allowed communication...?? At a full 8MBps??? That's a bit weird, isn't it??

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 10:05:06 pm
content: Quote from: ricko_uk on September 19, 2024, 09:59:03 pmBy specifying a speed of 8 Mbit, you have exactly reproduced the situation when one pair is lost on fast ethernet.In any case, you can try to connect the remaining wires randomly, it is absolutely safe.

author: ricko_uk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 10:16:42 pm
content: Thank you, I will try to do that.What I also noticed is that the other 3 wires are all solid steel (someone might have mentioned it here too and it makes sense if they are for structural strength), while the two for the comms are stranded.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 10:23:40 pm
content: Quote from: ricko_uk on September 19, 2024, 10:16:42 pmIf only one pair is twisted - of course it is broadband. I was mistaken, thinking that the Internet is delivered to you and your neighbor, and the router is hidden somewhere.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 12:48:01 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 19, 2024, 08:47:20 pmDoes anyone bother with draw strings these days? I thought everything was blown now, especially fibre.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 12:54:32 am
content: Quote from: coppice on September 20, 2024, 12:48:01 amYou have to get the 'straw' in to blow down.OR gave up on bringing fibre down my street years ago with no explanation. Locals came along, swore a bit, cleaned out the collapsed duct for them and took all the business. They just don't want to do the work - I seem to recall they turned down or returned massive government grants as they "couldn't" spend the money. Well, everyone else seems to be able to..

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 02:15:08 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on September 20, 2024, 12:54:32 amQuickline (one of these smaller fibre startups) have been through our village in the last couple of weeks, digging a lot. There must be a huge amount of collapse telecoms duct around.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 09:39:02 am
content: Quote from: Postal2 on September 19, 2024, 10:05:06 pmFast ethernethttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Ethernetis irrelevant in this thread. The OP is on a VDSL service. Completely different signals on the wires.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 09:42:28 am
content: Quote from: ricko_uk on September 19, 2024, 09:59:03 pmIf you had responded to my first reply days ago asking about the phone, you and all the other responders might have saved a lot of time.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 02:59:59 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on September 20, 2024, 09:39:02 amVery relevant. Especially if you don't know how Ethernet works.Quote from: wasedadoc on September 20, 2024, 09:39:02 amI know, I thought it was a shared line with a neighbor.Quote from: wasedadoc on September 20, 2024, 09:39:02 amThanks captain, I became smarter.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 04:18:44 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 20, 2024, 12:48:01 amNo, very little. Blown fibre requires a particular coating which is soft and very flexible, and totally unsuitable for exposure to the elements. Also, it requires the "straws" to be preinstalled, which begs the question, why not just install the fibre in the first place. It isn't possible to blow normal optical dropwire because it is far too stiff and heavy.There was a time when a new building was kitted out with straws everywhere, which was cheaper than installing fibres everywhere. Fibre would be blown in only on demand. As the price of fibre cable has fallen, blown fibre is less and less cost effective.There is probably some around, especially inside buildings, but I don't think there is very much in the OpenReach network. Some, but not much.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 04:47:35 pm
content: Slightly tangential, but isn't all copper to the home being phased out now in the UK? So presumably, the copper wires in the OP's case are due at some point to be deactivated?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 04:51:44 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on September 20, 2024, 04:47:35 pmEverything will be deactivated at some point, but 100% fibre availability is some way off in the UK.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 05:42:22 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 20, 2024, 04:51:44 pmIt doesn't have to be fibre. There are existing cable connections to many homes that will also support digital phone service.Originally, all landlines were due to be switched off by 2025, but it seems this has been extended to 2027, and in the nature of things, it could be extended again. But really, this is not very far away.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 05:48:19 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on September 20, 2024, 04:47:35 pmThere is a (currently paused) UK program to have all analogue phones no longer be directly on a copper pair to the local exchange. Instead they will plug into a Voice over IP unit, tyically within the VDSL modem Wi-Fi router at the customer location. Phone service will be over the broadband service. The broadband may be fibre or VDSL.I believe that other countries including USA and Japan are doing likewise.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 05:54:40 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on September 20, 2024, 05:42:22 pmYou specifically said copper.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 06:27:54 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 20, 2024, 05:54:40 pmYour desire to be pedantically annoying is not something I wish to be concerned with.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 06:37:13 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on September 20, 2024, 05:48:19 pmThis is interesting, and I understand it more clearly now.The goal is to switch off the traditional analog telephone system (PSTN), where a home phone is connected by a pair of copper wires to the local exchange with a direct analog connection.But the replacement does not necessarily mean decommissioning the copper wire pair. Instead, the same copper wires can be connected to a digital system at the remote end, and to a DSL modem in the home, providing digital internet service in place of analog phone service.Given the speed limitations and unreliability of the copper pair, consumers may still prefer fibre or coax, but in remote areas DSL may be the only option.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 06:58:07 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on September 20, 2024, 06:37:13 pmThere are lots of UK farm houses, clusters of homes too small to be called a village, and so on which aren't getting fibre any time soon, and are too far from the exchange for VDSL to work well. The question is whether they are stuck with ADSL speeds for years, or if 5G coverage will be good enough that most of them can migrate to the 100-200Mbps being offered for unlimited broadband over 5G right now.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 07:09:00 pm
content: Unfortunately 5G coverage tends to track population density fairly closely, at least for a good while yet.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 07:23:13 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on September 20, 2024, 07:09:00 pmThat's true for all cellular coverage in the UK. We don't need to go far from a town and away from a major road for cellular coverage of all Gs to disappear. That's why I wonder if 5G can substitute, as so many country places don't even have usable 4G to fall back to. Perhaps putting a cellular modem at a rooftop location or on a modest mast will help in flatter areas. I doubt that will do much in the Yorkshire Dales.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 04:35:40 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on September 20, 2024, 06:37:13 pmCorrect - you have summarised it perfectly. The only thing to add is that some end users might use a mobile network instead of a terrestrial link, and some might use a satellite link. But these are very small numbers right now.