Is this some kind of late April Fools joke that I'm too "Linux" to understand? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 05:33:15 pm
content: Windows 10 Nazi Update:No forced update for you today! Never! Next!Windows 10 users:https://www.howtogeek.com/410183/microsoft-abandons-windows-10s-forced-updates/

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 05:47:56 pm
content: What the heck have "Nazis" to do with this?In my opinion this is defintely a step in the right direction. Additionally, give me the option to *completely* disable telemetry, and i would update about immediately.

author: ElectronicSupersonic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 06:04:24 pm
content: Since Windows 10 appeared, I never stopped wandering why some people defend Microsoft's decision to implement telemetry implying that it can be disabled? Why it is there in the first place? It's not that it ABSOLUTELY necessary for the OS to function.As for updates. It's probably an attempt to convince Windows 7 (such as yours truly) users to upgrade. I'm not convinced. Microsoft completely lost my confidence with W10 (which to be honest wasn't that high anyway).Quote from: blueskull on April 05, 2019, 05:56:05 pmIt's not that Apple is "an honest good guy with a crystal clear reputation"But your point is very much valid.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 06:19:03 pm
content: The forced updates were the only truly annoying thing about W10 for me, and those can be disabled if you know how. Apart from that, it's way better than previous iterations.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 06:21:15 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 05, 2019, 05:56:05 pmI doubt that will happen. A lot of software is already available for Linux and Mac and there is more to follow. The only reason I use Windows is to run MS Office and Orcad. Windows may lose it's critical mass at some point.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 06:59:59 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on April 05, 2019, 05:47:56 pmSorry, no offense intended.It wanted to be a reference to a "Seinfeld" sitcom episode called "The Soup Nazi", where a dude was acting crazy disrespecting his customers by enforcing his own very strict rules (hence similar with Win10 forced updates that disregard Win10 users' wish).

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 07:07:25 pm
content: How about instead of Microsoft debating on if they should force people to update their computers, they design an updating tool that actually fucking works right, and can update just the OS within this century.That's what I love about Linux. One command to the package manager, one restart, boom, computer and most programs updated within about 5 minutes, including restart.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 08:02:53 pm
content: Maybe after seeing countless public displays showing updates being forced on big bill boards etc has sparked a huge embarrassment to MS along with many complaints from companies and they realized how stupid forced updates are. Some people actually use computers for important productivity tasks and can't be interrupted in the middle of it. some systems even require 24/7 uptime. Imagine that!One thing I never understood is why windows update takes so bloody long in first place and why it always requires a reboot. I can install an old Linux distro, patch it fully to current updates, and not even need to reboot, while windows is still updating.

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 09:08:24 pm
content: Some guy I know has a very compelling theory about Microsoft behaviour in regard to Win10:They make it less and less pleasant to use, especially to technically-minded people relying e.g. on drivers or J-LINK debuggers that dont like standby, or doing serious work like authors (Morgan, wink wink) where a file stays open maybe for days who lose data when there is a compulsory restart. Web browsing and movie watching users will not realize much.So the technically minded people leave the platform, going for Mac or Linux...Leaving noobs and leisure users that fire it up, browse and shut down.And Microsoft will make those bend. Deeper and deeper. Until they are left with those that will accept and obey everything.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 09:21:50 pm
content: Quote from: babysitter on April 05, 2019, 09:08:24 pmYou know that Word has autosave/autorecover built in for ages right? Not backing up regularly is poor foresight, for so many reasons other than the OS. J-link could be a their own driver issue or something else, personally I've had no issues but standby does seem to bring out a lot of bugs. Either way the theory is ridiculous.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 09:36:36 pm
content: Quote from: babysitter on April 05, 2019, 09:08:24 pmAFAIK, in a gracious shutdown or restart, Windows will send a shutdown event notification to all running programs, so a properly written program will know to save or discard whatever data is stored in the volatile memory, flush its file buffers and so on.I don't use Windows any more, so I don't know for sure if Win10 is sending shutdown events to running programs, but I see no reason to discard such a critical functionality, so I assume it is still in place.That shutdown event notification has nothing to do with autosave at each x minutes, which is done in the eventuality of a system unexpected crash, not a programmed shutdown or a normal program close.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 10:02:02 pm
content: Another "thing" with Windows 10 that I had forgotten about (until I got a new computer recently) is all the adverts. Why do I pay a lot of money for a computer only to have it show me advertisements? If we got computers for free, sure, but we don't. Maybe it's just me but I find that ridiculous. Does macOS come with ads? Anyway, I have now upgraded to Linux.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 01:16:55 am
content: Quote from: apis on April 05, 2019, 10:02:02 pmI've not used Win10 much myself, so I'd forgotten about the adverts too. I do recall reading about that. Combined with telemetry, logging of user files, auto-deletion of files they don't like for whatever reason, the forced updates, and even more of the usual MS calculated UI churn, was why I never shifted to Win10.But man... adverts. On a PC one owns. I can barely imagine how enraged that would make me. The PC would be lucky if I didn't take it outside and pour petrol on it. (And light, of course.)Anyway... my distrust and disgust for MS is great enough that even if they _say_ they quit forced upgrades, I'd assume they really meant 'until the next time we feel like forcing new and mysterious code on everyone.' MS lies, and the corporation is NOT your friend.They want more market share, more control. Preferably all of it. The forced upgrades are hurting their market share, so they are backing off on that... temporarily and superficially. It will be back, as soon as they feel able to resume with that crap again.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 02:38:09 am
content: QuoteAutosave yes, autorecover gets confused sometimes ...Backups used to be hiding in:C:\Users\User\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Microsoft Word\<long string>\YourDocumentNameHere.docxMicrosoft was called, there was some arm twisting for purchasing an office 365 subscription - "It includes automatic backups" they claimed.I got the next call and found the file.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 02:44:56 am
content: QuoteWho said that?Take screen captures since at some point history will again be chanegd.Every version of windows is the last version until the next version exists.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 02:50:39 am
content: My computer at work is running Windows 10. Yes, it notifies running applications that it's going to restart so that files can be saved. However, that's not the annoying part.Recently, an update was auto-installed and as I was typing, in the middle of a word (in MS Word, no less), the screen flashes a message that it's restarting. No warning at all. So, now your train of thought is blown away. You have to wait for the installation to finish, reboot, and more finishing up before you can log back in. Then, you have to go through the process of starting up the apps you were using, re-opening files you were working on, etc. A royal pain in the @$$. Whoever thought that's the way computers should operate needs a psychiatrist.In the office, I exclaimed that the next time it happens, I'm changing operating systems. An IT guy within earshot turned and looked at me with a dumbfound expression as if what I said was somehow incomprehensible. Maybe he'd never used another OS, I don't know. Basic usability isn't a night and day difference from one desktop environment to another, unlike the old days.I'm not Microsoft's "market", though.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 03:21:11 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 06, 2019, 02:54:59 amIn case you detected sarcasm, it wasn't aimed at you but at some smart bonehead at Microsoft.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 03:33:32 am
content: The forced updates are the #1 thing I hear people complain about, for many purposes it makes the OS unusable. I know of a veterinary clinic where the computers all ran Win10 including those used for processing payments, patient records, digital xrays, etc and the updates were a huge hassle, more than once taking down critical systems for an hour at a time forcing them to cancel appointments and just generally wreaking havoc. A huge number of businesses are too small for Enterprise or to have a real IT person, usually it's one or two of the more computer-savvy employs that take on that duty.I get the need to encourage people to stay on top of security updates but MS took the absolute worst possible approach to this all, bundling security updates and feature updates together, having all of them forced and major updates far too often. On the other hand my Linux boxes update painlessly, very rarely requiring a reboot. My work Macbook hasn't had to reboot in over 5 months. I tend to leave a lot of programs open with various things I'm working on, some things may be on the back burner for months and if I have to reboot the system it is a big pain to get everything back to the way I had it. Not everyone works this way but I do, and I demand that the technology bends to meet my needs and the way I work, not the other way around. This is the absolute first priority, always, being secure is second.

author: strangersound
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 04:58:13 am
content: I had to tell Windows 10 to piss off 3 times in a two hour period just this afternoon. It doesn't matter what you tell it. So when I finally was done doing what I was doing, I went ahead and told it to do it's stupid update and reboot. Interesting, it only took a couple seconds and was rebooted. What's really annoying is trying to figure out what you need to go back and fix because W10 definitely reverts changes you make.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 05:44:53 am
content: Yes that's another thing that irritated me to no end when I was forced to use Win10 at work. Every so often it would randomly change the default programs back to all the inferior apps that MS includes, set the pdf reader back to edge, set the default browser back to edge, nag me to use edge, Arg! If I wanted to use Edge I know where to find that pathetic excuse for a browser. Being pushy about it is just desperate and pathetic. For every single bundled app I can think of there is a 3rd party program that is superior, usually for free.

author: ruffy91
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 06:47:39 am
content: You are blaming Microsoft for the incompetence of your IT (what I see in an increasing fashion that companies hire someone for leading position in IT which has no Idea about staying up-to-date but tries to hold everything at a stop and whine at everything and telling that it was better in the old days, instead of getting their shit together and provide an up-to-date IT environment which helps the people work instead of being the department of "no!").It's perfectly possible to upgrade Win 10 to a new major release without your applications getting reset and in a controlled fashion instead of leaving everything on default "auto" settings.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 07:28:48 am
content: Even with the most restrictive settings, Windows will eventually force restart itself unless you disable the Windows Update and Windows Update Repair services.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 09:25:19 am
content: Quote from: ruffy91 on April 06, 2019, 06:47:39 am

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 09:49:25 am
content: TBF Microsoft are forcing updates so some dumbasses don’t get their machines owned and end up on botnets. This is an increasing problem. However the real issue is the whole NT environment is a fucking pile of crap with several half complete windows re-engineering attempts rotting on top of it which has increased the attack surface area exponentially.However with this came extreme lack of QA which actually destroys my workflow regularly. Thus I’m using xubuntu now after I wanted to print, sign, scan a contract recently and ended up with a hosed install just trying to get the scanner working. I’ve spent ten years removing any non portable platform from my workflow.Now a warning. Beware Microsoft. They know this is the situation and have started pouring crap all over other platforms now to try and maintain market domination. This is all bloated telemetry ridden crap.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 12:46:53 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on April 05, 2019, 06:59:59 pmNazi is a common expression in English for someone who unfairly pushes their own beliefs, values or rules onto others. For example someone who's continuously picking on another person's grammar, may be referred to as a grammar Nazi. It has nothing to do with gassing people, fascism or anti-Semitism.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 05:18:03 pm
content: Most people don't have an IT department, most smaller businesses don't either, people need to be able to use a computer productively without relying on a competent IT department.As far as needing to keep everything updated for to prevent botnets and such sorry I don't buy it. I would almost believe that was their motivation if they only forced security patches but they force everything. Also for all the hassle they cause, these heavy handed forced updates don't do anything about the attack vector that is by far the most commonly exploited and that is the user. It is incredibly easy to trick the average user into installing something and then it's game over, no way to patch that. Being so heavy handed annoys people into finding ways to disable updating completely. Microsoft bungled this whole thing big time and it's a bit silly the way some people apologize for them and defend these actions. There is NO excuse for this behavior. The customer is ALWAYS right, period.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 05:23:15 pm
content: Actually in IT the customer has a massive dick dangling between their eyes 99% of the time.The only worse trade for user error is medicine.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 05:27:18 pm
content: That's irrelevant, the customer paid the money, things are done their way, technology must bend to their needs and desires, not the other way around. End of story.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 05:28:07 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 06, 2019, 12:46:53 pmI've never quite understood that. Calling someone a "grammar nazi" for correcting someone using incorrect grammar, implies that a "nazi" is someone who does things correctly, which is offensive. Granted I'm sure they don't actually mean a national socialist, but it's a fine example of the increasing use of hyperbole. Same with the word "literally" used to add emphasis. I guess I'm one of those grammar people who gets annoyed by the misuse of words. I'm not proud of it, but I can't help it

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 05:33:07 pm
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on April 06, 2019, 05:28:07 pmNo sense in analyzing a figure of speech too deeply. A nazi is a fascist, a fascist is authoritarian, an authoritarian is someone who tells people what to do and how to do them. It's common to refer to someone who is overly bossy/rude as being a nazi, it's just an expression, I'm sure there are expressions in every culture/language that don't make a lot of logical sense under scrutiny. Yes it annoys me too when people use poor grammar, so what? It's not that big of a deal.

author: ElectronicSupersonic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 05:50:56 pm
content: Let me throw in a HIGHEST GRADE HARDCORE TIN FOIL HAT conspiracy theory in here.Microsoft has its agent undercover in some of most popular Linux distributions development teams to f...k 'em up good and proper in order to discredit (Linux OS) ant thus eliminate a competitor. Such a "theory" may come to mind seeing how poorly done some Linux distros are.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 05:56:08 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 06, 2019, 05:27:18 pmNope. You meet in the middle or fail.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 08:12:50 pm
content: If it was a healthy free market then it would be true and prices would reflect production prices. But since MS have a monopoly they set the rules and can charge whatever people are willing to pay. If someone had a monopoly of food they could serve people maggots and charge an arm and a leg for it.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 08:34:45 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 06, 2019, 05:27:18 pmNope, they abide by the terms of the sale/contract & licenses. They only get to chose BEFORE the purchase not after.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 09:18:51 pm
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on April 06, 2019, 08:34:45 pmYes, so? Where did I say otherwise? This is precisely what I did. When Win10 was offered I said no, MS kept pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing and I kept saying NO, and today I'm still saying NO. I am the customer, I demand that the product be flexible enough to meet my needs or I don't use it, simple as that, and unlike in the past there are other viable options today. Win10 does not meet my needs and as long as MS continues to put their needs before my own, I will not purchase it, period. The presumptuous condescending attitude and hubris angers me more than any specific fault in the software of which there are many.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 09:22:36 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 06, 2019, 05:56:08 pmNope, I get my way or no deal, period. Win7 works almost exactly the way I like it to, with a few tweaks it's a fantastic OS. Linux is very close to meeting all my needs and is also extremely flexible, I can tweak it just the way I like. There's no meeting in the middle, my needs are the only thing that matters, a company wishing to have some of my money can deliver something that meets my needs or no deal, how they work that around their business model is their problem not mine. I'm the guy with the money and I'm under no obligation whatsoever to give them any.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 09:43:33 pm
content: You have to meet Linux in the middle too. I'm sitting here on a xubuntu box for ref. Watch what happens when you have weird VPNs, platform specific software, laptop power management. I had to compromise on those in the end.You can't bulldoze your way through - it's a life of pain. I did it for 10 years until I realised I was an idiot.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 10:56:33 pm
content: Quote from: apis on April 06, 2019, 08:12:50 pmYou know, 15 or 20 years ago I would have been more sympathetic to that opinion but I do not think anyone can say MS has a monopoly in the sense that there are no other options. They may have a huge segment of the market but that does not necessarily make it a monopoly.Twenty years ago everybody was talking about how MS had a dominant position that it was impossible to have any hope of competing with them because they were so big they would just crush you. Then Google came along and made a ton of money and with that money made Android and Android and iPhone crushed Windows mobile which never really was a serious competitor. Now there are more devices using Android than using Windows. Now, they are different OSs for different devices but in a way they compete because many people are doing on their mobile devices what they would have been doing on a computer years ago.If anybody today is "the monopoly" it's Google and not MS.Linux could be a competitor for the desktop OS market if Linux itself was not so divided. The good thing about Linux is that anybody can change it to suit their needs and that is also its weakness. It is too divided and every edition is half baked. It is not that Windows is better than Linux, it is that Linux is not even trying. If there was more of an effort to standardize, develop and promote Linux I think it could very well be serious competition to MS.Apple certainly has a segment of the market. So I do not think we can properly say MS has a monopoly. I also think MS weight in this general market is diminishing and MS has already seen its best days. They will have to reinvent themselves (something they have done successfully several times in their history) or shrink into oblivion.There were companies like Kodak, IBM, Nokia, Sears Roebuck, etc. which seemed to be invulnerable in their time but all declined, maybe not necessarily because some competitor offered the same product but because the market had moved on to other things.

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2019, 03:51:49 pm
content: Quote from: strangersound on April 06, 2019, 04:58:13 amYeah... I've gotten in the habit of running ShutUp10 every week or two now, just to see what datamining they've turned back on. This (and a few other bits of maintenance) is the price of not having paid for an OS upgrade since I dumped XP/64-bit back in the ought-somethings for Win7.You guys whining about this seem to have completely missed the mark. You all bitched and moaned about what previous versions of Winblows COST; either in cash outright or in revenue-generating bloatware. Theirnew business model, since they are now a "cloud company",is the datamining everybody takes for granted with Chrome & Furkbook. The only difference is they cut out the middleman.Win10 is NOT Enterprise-class or even especially reliable software; it is trialware pure and simpleto keep the great "something-for-nothing" masses who EXPECT Windows to come with their new PC hooked on the M$ ecosystem.If you look at it any other way you are yourself at fault.It is the loss-leader they produce to keep their Enterprise-class offerings and cloud services relevant.Meanwhile, they pioneer VR and Visual Recognition to the tune of millions in R&D, then hand out the Kinect and AR APIs for anybody to use just to get somebody creative to write something... ANYTHING... using this stuff... and everybody's so effing afraid of the big bad wolf they let it all flush down the drain until Furkbook buys out Oculus and turns one of the visionary products of VR into a fucking 4chan chatroom.I've never cared much for the heavy-handed business tactics MS uses; but I wouldn't be in their shoes for all the bits in China. Just by dint of what they represent, no matter WHAT THEY DO there's going to be a huge segment of either the general public or the tech republic that are outraged.No wonder they've adopted an attitude of:"Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke... and fuck 'em if they can take a joke. Just fuck 'em."mnemGrammer Police