Siglent SDS2204X+ or alternative?  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: kimballa
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 03:10:48 pm
content: Hi all,I looked for a thread on this topic already but couldn't find a close match; please feel free to point me at one if it's available.I am in the market for a new scope at the upper end of the amateur range ($2-3k USD). I've been using a 2ch 120MHz USB oscilloscope and need more functionality for what I'm doing.My projects these days are in DIY audio synthesizer work (some fully analog, others with some digital ICs running at a slow main clock speed but can have fast edge rates to worry about) and various arduino- or pi-based digital systems. That said I want a tool that can come along with me for several years if my focus changes.My leading contender is the Siglent SDS2204X Plus. They've got a deal right now that boosts the frontend max frequency (so that'd do 350MHz which seems like more than enough) and I'd get the func gen module too.The things I know I'm looking for are:- 200MHz+- 4 channels- bode plot generation- decent FFT visualization, especially down near the audio range (sub 100kHz)- obviously, more sampling rate and waveform depth are better. I don't know if I need to worry about more than the usual 2G/s max, that's probably fine?Some other considerations are desk space, ability to connect to a windows PC (at minimum for screenshot download, but control / live viz on a bigger monitor would be a bonus).If there are other attributes you think I should keep in mind please feel free to call them out.The Siglent's 8 bit adc with 10 bit high res mode seems like it'd likely be fine? I don't know in what cases I'd really need 12 bit sampling.I tried looking at Rigol's site to see if there was an alternative to consider but they don't make it easy to compare the various scopes they have, of which several are 200MHz.. They focus on front end frequency and don't really clearly highlight how the options are different. Are there some particular models to consider as an alternative to siglent?I also looked at Keysight and Tek's websites but it seemed like comparable scopes from them would be way more expensive, which doesn't seem worth it.For what it's worth I have a DC supply and an older generation func gen (1025) from siglent so I am happy generally with Siglent's quality. Just want to make sure I do my due diligence before committing to a purchase here.(also if anyone knows - does the SDG1025 have what logic it takes to do the bode plot sweeps driven from the scope? Or do the scopes need the newer 1030/1060-generation func gen to use an external device for bode plots?... In which case I'd just make sure the internal function generator option is enabled)

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 03:19:06 pm
content: Quote from: kimballa on June 14, 2023, 03:10:48 pmYou didn't looked carefully as there are plenty. Someone better than me will show an example.One thing is guaranteed: you don't need the 200 MHz hype and 350 upgradeability since you can do that by yourself starting with a SDS2104X+.

author: kimballa
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 03:59:04 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on June 14, 2023, 03:19:06 pmAgain, I would welcome a pointer. I did not find any threads on the first few pages of browsing that spoke to this, nor did keyword searchs for multiple combinations of probable keywords yield a targeted result. I have invested well over an hour in reading this forum about scopes in this category before writing this.There are a lot of discussions about the Siglent 2000HD series, and a number of threads about comparing the sub-$1k options. There is of course the enormous SDS2zzzX+ series by itself but that the several pages I read there focused pretty specifically on the SDS' own features or bugs.There are also many threads where people complain that the original poster did not specify their use case, making it difficult to make a useful recommendation, so I was sure to add mine.But no, in trying to figure out which of the various Rigol MHO or DSO options actually hit this range, it was not actually easy for someone not an expert in this forum's history to find. Again, if I really was just blind to the relevant thread please just drop a link and I'll apologize for wasting folks' time.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 04:06:05 pm
content: Hi,About the SDS2000X plus, have a look on my signature..

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 04:37:33 pm
content: Quote from: kimballa on June 14, 2023, 03:10:48 pmThe R&S RTB2004 is missing from your list.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 08:27:47 pm
content: Quote from: kimballa on June 14, 2023, 03:10:48 pmApparently so however I now don't have one of those older SDG to check.From the datasheet:Supported signal sources:Built-in waveform generatorSDG series waveform generators, Connection: USB, LANFrom user manual:At this time, either the built-in waveform generator or one of a SIGLENT SDG series arbitrary function generators are supported.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 10:04:30 pm
content: Quote from: kimballa on June 14, 2023, 03:10:48 pmNo need to buy a 2204+, a 2104+ is (easily and durable) hackable to "full ammo", this means all options and a bandwith of 500Mhz (2Ch, 1+3 or 2+4).The saved money you can use to buy a SDG1032X for example - The in-built generator is a nice to have in "urgent cases", but it´s limited in output level and waveforms (modulation).QuoteThe SDS2k+ series fits all your needs, coming from a Rigol MSO5074(max. 8GSa/s) I was worrying about to have "only" 2GSa/s, but in practice it doesn´t matter.QuoteSame as before but nowadays nearly all scopes offer these features.QuoteWell, directly not.The new DHO series (and then the DHO 4000 series) are offering 12 bit and lower noise level, but no bode plot and actually a "unfinished" UI, not recommendable at the moment.QuoteAlthough I have a SDS2504+ HD, there is a kind of hype to offer 12 bit models for the "low-end" market.12 bit or more you need when you want to observe very, very low signals, I dare to say in 95% of all cases you won´t need this.At work we have a lecroy WR9054, which is quiet expensive (> 12000€), full packed with (additional) features, a really top scope - But "only" 8bit (plus eres).QuoteThey (as well as lecroy) are actually not "used" to offering a scope under 5000€.That is, everything you get from them for little money, is rather to be seen as a concession to the market, lecroy e.g. offers in the class relabeled scopes from Siglent....This segment is well served by Siglent, Rigol but probably also GWInstek and usually "better".As long as you can not spend "real" money for a scope, I would not worry about the brands, with one exception:R&S.Like nctnico already mentioned, the RTB2000 series could be a alternative to the sds2000x+.In my opinion, they´re the only competition although they´re a more expensive.My verdict about the SDS2k+ series is clear:I had an SDS2104X+ in use for 2 years at home, now we have six of them at work.All in all, for me it's the best you can get for the money and beyond.It's not perfect, that's not a scope.But the overall package is convincing, if you need significantly "better", you have to dig really deep into your pocket.At work we also have the "smallest" lecroy wavesurfer scope, which still costs at least 4000.Even that can not pull in the sum past the siglent.And the new rigols are still simply too immature.That leaves the RTB2004 series.If I were you, I would compare the data with the siglent and then decide.

author: kimballa
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 03:18:31 am
content: Thanks Martin, that's super thorough, I really appreciate you writing that all out! Very useful perspective on the ADC bit-width too....And a great point about having budget left over for the 1032X if necessary. The RTB2004 makes you buy a lot a la carte; they actually seem to have a promotion going right now that would include everything I need for "only" $4,700... which, when compared to $1400 for the SDS2104X+ ...well, that's awful hard to swallow. (I'm kind of impressed that they managed to actually seem to find even finer-grained ways to slice the feature licensing than anyone else.)I think you've basically settled it then. Cheers!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 08:00:12 am
content: Quote from: kimballa on June 15, 2023, 03:18:31 amUntil you start to do protocol decoding... Siglent scopes aren't really setup for that but the RTB2004 has the best decoding UI I have ever come across. As a whole the UI of the RTB2004 is way more polished compared to the competition. If I where you, I'd try to buy an RTB2004 second hand (from a test equipment dealer) if buying a new one is out of the budget. Good deals for lightly used test equipment can be found.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 08:31:58 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 15, 2023, 08:00:12 amAbsolute garbage !You need wise up to all recent offerings.

author: Domitronic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 10:25:59 am
content: I would not recommend a RTB2004 if you want decent FFT in low frequency range. I have had it, returned it and bought a SDS2104X+ instead.The FFT of the RTB2004 is or at least was a nightmare in the low frequency range. I wanted to measure harmonics of 50Hz signals and had to wait more than one minute for a single FFT sweep. At least check if they improved the firmware for the FFT before you buy it.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 10:32:26 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 15, 2023, 08:00:12 amI am of the opinion that it would highly benefit discussion here, if everybody would be so kind and prefix blank and highly generalized statements with things such as "in my opinion", "for the way I work" or "I like best ". I try to do the same lately, as something you (rightly so) taught me in many of our discussions.Looking at your statements one could get a wrong assumption that there is some industry standard how these things should work and be concepted.And some scopes are implementing it right and others wrong.Which is absolutely not the case. All manufacturers make scopesdifferentlyand to some one concept is better and to other something else...That being said, RTB2000 has some very nice graphical design in GUI, some good stuff, and also some illogical or missing stuff, in comparison...I tried it and found it quite nice... But far from perfect.And then you go to SDS2000X+ and realize it does the excellent job for a fraction of price.. Which also have many features that RTB does not have, like arbitrary math, histicons, 50Ω inputs etc etc...Rudi made excellent comparison between the two.. RTB2000 is nice scope but not worth the money they ask for it... Inmy opinion...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 12:19:10 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on June 15, 2023, 08:31:58 amComing from the Siglent sales guy...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 12:24:10 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on June 15, 2023, 10:32:26 amAgreed, and since the OP mentioned wanting to venture into digital electronics (Arduino / Rpi) so chances are high that the OP comes across wanting to use bus decoding. Rudi made an in-depth video comparing protocol decoding between Keysight, R&S and Siglent:In the end it is not about how many features this/that but how efficient a tool is to use for the actual work in front of you. IOW: which features are important and which aren't. In reality you can't do all jobs efficiently with a single oscilloscope. You'll need several ones (even without looking at differences in bandwidth)

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 01:56:00 pm
content: As usual we don't comment on things we don't have, but do have a pair of SDS2000X+.We've utilized the SPI decoding capability with a RPi & PC with our DIY Logic Probe without issue. Was nice to be able to view the analog outputs of a multichannel precision 16 bit DAC and subsequent circuitry in relation to the decoded digital SPI commandsBest,