Need laminator for toner transfer - UK - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Chryseus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2013, 08:36:05 pm
content: Hey guys, I've attempted to do toner and photo transfer in the past with rather mixed results at best (photo transfer was a total failure) so I want to get a laminator to finally make some decent PCBs.I have no idea where to start so if anyone could recommend a suitable laminator for £20 or under available in the UK I would be extremely grateful, I don't care much for speed as long as I can shove a copper clad board in it.

author: Molybdo42
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2013, 10:33:36 pm
content: You want to do some dry film photoresist ?If yes then take any kind of heated roll laminator, the temperature used by the dry films shouldn't be too far away from the pouch plastifier (110-130 °C) in the worst case, you can modify the laminator to obtain higher temperature (see link below).But you will need to equip yourself with :- an UV insulator,- some plastic bins to reveal the photoresist- and some protective gear : gloves glasses and lab coat.Note that if you are successful with dry film processing, you can also make solder masks !Now for toner transfer, I have no experience at all. Apparently you will need to use more heat (190-210°C). I wouldn't suggest you to go that way, because you will need to modify the laminator and you might melt something (use dry films). Nevertheless, there are some tutorials on the webhttp://ultrakeet.com.au/write-ups/superFuserV2In both cases check the maximum thickness that you can laminate.

author: silent
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 12:37:27 am
content: Hello.I have also experimented with a laminator.There is a nice topic about them on my favorite polish electronics forum (started in 2008) -http://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic1070510-0.html- maybe you could use a google translator to get some sense from the posts. There also my posts (Sh4dow) from 2009.In general, for some people cheap laminators do the job, some of them complain, and some of them try to "pump it up" a little to get higher temperatures which leads to "meltdown" in some cases ;-).I use a cheap laminator I bought in nearest supermarket to transfer the toner printed with a laser printer on the special papier suitable for thermal transfer. It performs perfect. In my case i have to push the board through about 15-20 times and it's ready. I have never used photoresist films, so I don't know how this stuff performs with them.I believe the best way it to experiment ;-).

author: Greyersting
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 03:02:31 am
content: I have used this laminator in the past and it worked pretty good-http://www.amazon.com/Swingline-Inspire-Thermal-Laminator-1701855/dp/B004FM76BKIt's also under your budgetOff topic: First ~20 boards I tried I failed so bad. Turns out that my printer was inkjet. I had thought that when people said it doesn't work with inkjet that it was a brand.

author: ahnuts72
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 03:26:43 am
content: I just skip the laminator and use a clothes iron set on high.Use even pressure for about a minute or so takes a bit of practiceto get the timing right but it works great.You must use a laser printer for the toner transfer and if you don't use the specialtransfer paper use a cheap photo paper for a inkjet printer to print on.Here is the board from my DC load.Sent from my Nook HD

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 03:57:42 am
content: ^lol at the crossed traces under the dip chip.I've never gotten a laminator to work.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 04:07:44 am
content: Quote from: george graves on October 15, 2013, 03:57:42 amStar ground

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 04:28:18 am
content: If you press too hard you will squash the toner sideways which normally isn't too much of an issue but will reduce clearance between tracks. Only really causes issues if you have really find tracks near each other, like a fine pitch TQFP.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 06:43:10 am
content: lots of informations here :http://thomaspfeifer.net/direct_toner_pcb.htm

author: Chryseus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 12:01:48 pm
content: Thanks for the great advice guys, I'll give using the iron another go as I think I had it set way too hot, I'll also try pre-heating the board, if that fails I'll grab the laminator Greyersting recommended.

author: ahnuts72
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 01:16:13 pm
content: Make sure you don't use regular paper as it wont work.You need cheap photo paper so it will soften in water high quality photo paper wont soften and it will pull the trace off when you remove it. Print on the glossy side or the transfer paper made for toner transfer.Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

author: dr_p
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 01:55:06 pm
content: Any glossy magazine works decent enough, in my experience. Cut a full page, put it in the printer just like regular paper and print.

author: ahnuts72
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 02:55:20 pm
content: Magazine paper will work forgot about that.I found that the heat control with magazine paper was alot more touchy.I had better luck with photo paper.Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

author: Greyersting
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 09:46:37 pm
content: Quote from: ahnuts72 on October 15, 2013, 03:26:43 amWhat printer are you using?

author: ahnuts72
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 10:11:07 pm
content: HP laserjet p1006Sent from my Nook HD

author: Chryseus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2013, 06:07:45 pm
content: Pictures:http://u.cubeupload.com/Chryseus/CtT6x8.pnghttp://u.cubeupload.com/Chryseus/3ajPkU.pngJust a quick update, I've finally had success using an iron, the paper I used is just an old Argos catalogue which you can pick up for free which is awesome, the printer I used is a cheap and no longer sold Samsung ML-1865.I cleaned the board with some kitchen cleaner and fine grade wire wool then put the transfer in place with a sheet of plain paper over the top, left the iron sitting on it for a minute then gently ironed over the board a couple of times, after it cooled I soaked it in hot water then gently rubbed the paper off, after etching in warm ferric chloride I gave it another clean as before to remove the toner.There are some pin holes in places but it's nothing too serious, my main problem was actually drilling the holes since I don't have a drill stand at the moment, I'll probably do most of my future boards in 0603 SMD in any case.Overall I'd have to say I'm very pleasedAnyone have any tips to further reduce pin holes ?

author: dr_p
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2013, 07:43:04 am
content: Quote from: Chryseus on October 22, 2013, 06:07:45 pmuse a small DC motor (9...15V) with a miniature chuck. Something likethis. And stock up on drill bits, nothing worst than finishing your board with 1mm holes because you broke your single sub mm drill bit.

author: dr_p
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2013, 10:51:31 am
content: Probably the hole is just the right size on those so the axle fits snugly. The chuck auto-centers anyway.I have a miniature drill likethis one, but it was around 10$. Before this I actually used a piece of coiled wire and soldered everything together - the bit, the coiled wire and the axle. It takes a couple of tries but you eventually get it straight enough. O0 I had a 0.7mm drill bit permanently in there, everything else I drilled with a different drill.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2013, 07:54:06 am
content: I bought cheapest laminator I could find in Tesco. Made my purse lighter by whole 5€... I just removed the thermal fuse and replaced the bimetallic thermostat with ordinary AC switch (i think it came from a broken PC PSU). I just measured temperature with a thermocouple that came with a 5€ won-hung-low multimeter and switched the heater on/off manually. It did the job.Unmodified laminators run at 110 deg.C I think, which is too low for toner transfer (the toner sticks a bit, but it doesn't hold on for too long).I think that all the automated thermostats and the like are an overkill, because you need to manually put the pcb through the laminator, so you cannot do it unattended.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2013, 08:27:55 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on October 23, 2013, 10:09:58 amI find it's best with those mini chucks for dc motors to ensure the chuck is fully down the shaft and resting against the motor even so that it's lightly rubbing, this will help to reduce the run out greatly. Also don't do the grub screw up tightly (if the fit against the shaft is tight enough you may not need it at all) as it will pull the chuck to one side.With a bit of fiddling you can get it to turn quite true (small run out).You don't need it perfect for hand drilling, since you're hand is going all over the place anyway, as long as you can hit the mark your hand-eye co-ordination naturally adjusts.NB: Always etch your boards so that the holes don't have copper centers, that way you have a nice guide for the tip of the drill bit. Make sure the motor is being given all the voltage and current it demands.