Build a new lab with mid-range equipment - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: B1nary
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 09:19:56 pm
content: Being retired and ‘having the time’, as a newbie I thought I could read the blogs, watch the EEV YouTube channel and do a lot of research in order to come up the various pieces of electronics gear I will need in order to do repairs, tune-ups, and alignments on my HAM gear and several pieces of higher-end 1980’s stereo equipment that is in need of repair/alignment. With the cost to ship, insure and pay for repairs now reaching upwards of $1000+ a piece, it’s time to stop paying others and learn to repair things on my own. Yes I know I’m new to this and yes I’ll make mistakes, no doubt lots of them but I have to start somewhere. When I first got into woodworking there was an old master woodworker who told me “don’t buy cheap tools”. That advice has stood the test of time for a lot of years and I expect the same is true when it comes to electronics. I’ve watched Dave’s video on starting your own lab and as good advice as that is I don’t wish to buy low(er) end gear. I know I will need at least an Oscilloscope, RF Voltmeter, Digital Voltmeter (I have a HP34401a and a Fluke 189), FM Signal Generator, Audio Frequency Voltmeter (30Hz to 200Khz), Frequency Counter, Lab Power Supply (Rigol DP832A?? or Siglent SPD3303X (the binding post seem to be an issue). A Spectrum Analyzer (Siglent SSA321X seemed to be OK). I tried coming up with a scope but when a user asks for a list of mid-range scopes in the $3000 to $10,000 range and only a few names come up, I gave up. I realize I’m probably going to get shot down here but I need help in coming up with a decent set of gear that is more than beginner stuff – I’ll grow into it and hopefully I don’t have to buy a better piece of gear because I bought a low end one to start with. So will those of you that have worked on the gear I want to work on help? If it takes $10,000 for a decent scope than that’s what it takes – “don’t buy cheap tools”. I don’t mind buying used equipment as long as it looks like it hasn’t been abused, dropped etc.I appreciate everyones help

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 11:16:21 pm
content: Well I think that HP34401a can serve as decent audio range voltmeter.. Also I have Rigol DP831, that is different in that that it has +-0-30V/2A with common ground and isolated 0-8V/5A. It works great for symmetric power for opamp circuits...For the rest I'll let people with more knowledge about other pieces of equipment to chime in...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 11:54:41 pm
content: Welcome to the forum B1nary.Well you do have a wishlist.Might I suggest if you don't need the V and A resolution for your PSU the SPD3303X-E can save you a few bucks.Essentially the same PSU as you've listed but with lower adjustment resolution.I've just got a new one from the factory and I have to unbox it for another inquiry so I'll revisit the binding posts and report back if there's any changes.So did you have any thoughts as to your scope requirements?If you've not had much experience with scopes even entry level models with basic features can and will get you started and take you some good way into knowing what you really need and want.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 12:42:08 am
content: Most of what you appear to (initially) want to do could be covered with old used gear costing very little money. My advice would be to invest in yourself and learn how to use these basic tools to learn about how stuff works. YOU are the most important thing in the workroom and buying snazzy tools won't make you better or make you learn faster. The exotic tools can come later when they will be less of a distraction.I know this isn't what you want to hear but I would advise you to avoid getting sucked into the trap where the 'lab' becomes the hobby. i.e. avoid becoming just another newbie lab 'prepper' cramming loads of brand new tools and shiny new chinese test gear onto a workbench for the inevitable photoshoot and display on youtube or here. Instead, learn how to analyse components and circuits using basic tools and start to build stuff and maybe take apart a few old CB radios to see how they work. You don't need modern tools for any of this initial research work. Wait until you really need the better stuff. Even then I'd advise to only buy what you actually need rather than work down a typical lab prepper checklist.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 02:59:45 am
content: There is a Test Equipment forum here that is right on point for this topic.There's really nothing in your shopping list that I can discuss. Your needs and budget far exceed mine.Since you can unlock the DP832 to gain the features of the DP832A, maybe you can save a few bucks. Details elsewhere. I just bought a DP832 and I'm not sure I even care about the extra features. Networking and such just isn't that important to me. 1 mV adjustments are also not important. For the most part, I would be happy with 100 mV resolution. It's not like I want to use a power supply as a signal generator.I have the Rigol DS1054Z unlocked to 100 MHz and it is clearly more than adequate for you audio needs. It won't be much help if your Ham Radio frequencies are above that. It sure would be nice to have something from Keysight but i would want to be certain it had more features than the Rigol and that won't be easy. The DS1054Z has an enormous number of measurements and triggering modes as well as serial decoding for those of us in the microcontroller arena.Next up for me is an Arbitrary Waveform Generator and probably the Rigol DG4162 160 MHz unit. It has AM and FM modulation capability right up through the commercial radio bands and up into the 2 meter band. I don't need to go higher, you might. I bought a cheap RF signal generator (old school style) to use for alignment purposes realizing that more often than not, it's just used for tweaking coils and the absolute value of frequency may not be terribly important.You can get a very nice scope for $10k. I'm happy with my $400 Rigol since I also have a very used Tek 485 to cover up to 350 MHz. But it lacks ALL of the features of a modern DSO.That Fluke 189 is a very good DMM. I have had one for 10 years or more. I use it for my critical work and use something else for everyday measurements.Enjoy your retirement! I have been retired for nearly 13 years and have never given a moment's thought to going back to work. Life is good!

author: B1nary
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 04:49:04 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 24, 2016, 11:54:41 pmThank you. I had wondered about how much resolutions I would use (vs need). I've started a list (and will add to it as othesr come up with suggestions) and am really interested in the binding post size and looseness issue. All the cables/leads I have are a very standard size (plug into both the Fluke and the HP34404a so I don't want to be playing around to get a tight fit when I have enough issues to learn and deal with already. So please let me know what you find.In terms of a Scope - I read more reviews and watched more YT videos than I can count - really. After many reviews/test I concluded perhaps incorrectly that a low end scope was as Dave and others suggested a good entry point but they are really just toys - and as I noted in my 1st post if I'm going to go this route then I'm going to spend the $$ to get one I won't have to replace anytime soon. After all that I ended up looking at R&S HMO3054 (amazing what you learn when reading reviews - as in abbreviations :-) until I read reviews and comments about it;s FFT ability and deep memory ability (issues I know little about). I also looked at a Keysight MSO 6054A (used) and a few Tek's but it seems once you start reading reviews and tests everyone (read manufacturers, seem to go out of their way to shoot every other product down). So if any of them are reading this just know that doing that does not make your product better what it did do was stop me from buying altogether - sorry slight rant there. I hope I answered your questions.

author: B1nary
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 05:04:29 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on October 25, 2016, 12:42:08 amActually it is something I firmly believe in. Trust me at my age you won't be seeing any YT videos or a 'shot of my bench'. I bought a custom furniture shop several years ago and the fellow had virtually all low end tools and was spending a lot of time 'fixing' mistakes because his stools just could do what he needed done. I had to replace the tools that came with the shop and it just made the guys life so much easier. I hope to do that for myself as I get into this. So I won't be buying top end gear as I hope to get into the at a mid-range level (a $15,000 Keysight 500MHz 4ch MSO scope just seems a bit much - but - if you were me and reading the reviews and watching all the videos it isn't hard to see why I would think just such a scope is needed. The selection of a scope is where I stopped searching and swallowed my pride and came here for help. FYI - back when CB radio was so busy you could talk around the world at times I was unlocking PLL's and using "Truth Charts" so I suppose I may not be a total newbie but that was a life time ago. I really appreciate your comments. (Reminds me of a family member who was convinced buying a $1500 set of golf clubs . . . (oops I'm in trouble now).

author: B1nary
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 05:40:20 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 25, 2016, 02:59:45 amLove your comment on 'life".If others are reading my reply . . .I had concluded that a scope in the 300MHZ range seemed to be where I would need to go. I watched several YT's on testing and reviews on various scopes including Rigols DS2202 and that scope seem to frustrate Dave (see the vid on accessing a digital safe) on several fronts. Being frustrated when you know what you are doing is one thing but as a newbie it's a different story. I would rather spend more $$ now and not have to worry about it then fight with a scope because it simply can't (or won't) do what needs doing. At the point I stopped looking I had concluded I could get by with a scope in the 300MHZ range and it would be at the bottom end of BW (yes I learned that here as well). Audio work would not be an issue, but it seemed HAM radio work would push the scope at that BW. So I wondered about getting a R&S HMO3054 (300MHZ) along with a low end spectrum analyzer like the new Siglent SSA3021X. I think the combination would get me where I needed to go in terms of tune-ups and alignment/repairs but I don't know that for sure (grr-frustration). So I searched around and found a Keysight MSO6054 500MHZ. It seemed to be able to do FFT math work and maybe I could (sort of) use it to replace a spectrum analyzer but a 500MHz Keysight - even used is in the $5000-$6000USD range. So if you have suggestions on a good mid range scope I will spend the $10,000 if I have to but if I don't have to I'd like to buy others gear I will need.I am grateful to everyone who replied this has been very helpful.Can those who know scopes and Amateur radio jump in here? Do I need a a Tek or Keysight 3000 (3054) level scope (MSO, 500MHz 4Ch plus good FFT ability) and what is wrong with the Rhode & Schwarz HMO3054 and its rise time and FFT problems - I'm lost.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 06:43:33 pm
content: When you talk about scopes, there is Keysight and then there are all the others. If I had the money, I would be looking at the Keysight catalog too.Keysight themselves sell used scopes. This is a whole lot better than buying from somebody on eBay and hoping the darn thing lights up when it arrives.http://stores.ebay.com/keysight?wmc=ebay-brand-us-ca_text-ad&gclid=CJrPl8bF9s8CFc9gfgodrfALXgEvery UI has oopsies! Some will be easier to work around than others. It's sort of related to the number of features and the depth of menuing required. Things were a lot simpler when scopes were plain hardware. Turn a knob and something changes. There were no "Parameter Exceeded" warnings. Everything the scope could do was right in front of you. Today that simply isn't possible.8:40 in, you can see Dave working a Keysight MSO-X 3054A scopeNewark has it for $12,700 and that's a bunch of money, maybe search the Keysight Used site:http://www.newark.com/keysight-technologies/msox3054a/msox-series-oscilloscope-20-channel/dp/21T9299I figure if it's good enough for Dave, it's good enough for me! If I had money...I'm not sure I care about the MSO bit. I have a 200 MHz 32 channel logic analyzer and I don't expect to overrun it anytime soon but there are people working with mixed signal so MSOs do matter.Incidentally, that multi-thousand dollar Keysight doesn't have anywhere near the memory depth of the Rigol DS1054Z. And every single feature you want, like serial decoding, isn't included.http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1847045.pdf?_ga=1.49895846.1679769932.1470584706http://web.mit.edu/6.115/www/document/agilent_mso-x_manual.pdfNote that only the most basic math functions are included. Everything else is extra...I would make the following suggestion, knowing that you are headed in a different direction: Buy the Rigol DS1054Z, unlock the features and use it up. When you actually have some high frequency work, buy a well used analog scope (like my 350 MHz Tek 485) for a couple of hundred bucks and call it good. The Rigol has a lot more memory, vastly more measurements and more math functions (vs base price Keysight) and it's not clear to me that all of the measurement, decoding and such is really required over the entire frequency spectrum.I will concede that the Keysight is a far better scope but the cost gets out of hand pretty quick.They do have a promotion going right now on where you can get an MSO for the price of a DSO. Maybe that brings things back to earth.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 06:46:14 pm
content: Quote from: B1nary on October 25, 2016, 04:49:04 pmIMO, I'd doubt you'd need or want better than 10 mV or mA resolution.As I stated I have revisited a new SDP3303X-E than came yesterday.Binding posts do seem a loose fit for banana plugs UNTIL they are fully inserted. The last ~1/4" is quite a firm fit, firm enough that you wouldn't want them that tight all the way. I tried some new and old plugs and they were both the same, tension was more than adequate if the were fully inserted.The fan runs all the time but is very quiet with zero load. I'll try and find time to do some simple load test to get the fan to liven up with a decent load.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 07:17:23 pm
content: Quote from: B1nary on October 25, 2016, 05:40:20 pmI have never ever felt the need to look at my transmitter output on a scope, that's where spectrum analyzers, wattmeters and frequency counters are for.Having said that, I have a MSOX scope because you can't go wrong with that. (And it looks great on the bench too)

author: Johnny10
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 07:38:01 pm
content: I would take a look at Mr Carlson's videos on You Tube for some ideas on the type of equipment you need for your type projects.I was exactly where you are now a little over two years ago.And having owned a wooden stair manufacturing business myself, the story about quality of tools is an important one.The only thing to add to that is... I purchased top of line equipment but after spending a ton of money, my experience began to show that buying good used equipment that fit the job was the most productive.You will go down many avenues in electronics and each will have special requirements.Enjoy the ride!

author: B1nary
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 07:46:38 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on October 25, 2016, 07:17:23 pmWillng to share which one and with which features?

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 08:14:15 pm
content: Quote from: B1nary on October 25, 2016, 07:46:38 pmIt started out as a MSOX3034A but then persuaded to do 500MHz and all options. Second hand but refurbished by Keysight, warranty till 6-2017, paid around $3200.

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 08:39:02 pm
content: I don't have any experience with RF but what scope features are required for RF work? You probably don't need digital protocol (spi, i2c etc) decoding. You don't need fft - since you'll have the SA/VA., and deep memories are less important since RF signals are relatively constant/ transients are limited by pass filters.I am wondering if a fast analogue scope would fit the bill - something like the 350MHz Tek 485?The build quality will eclipse any modern scope and the UI is a work of art. On that basis it meets the good tools criteria, and should be a positive experience to use - which is important for a hobby.Or couple it with a modest lower bandwidth DSO to get the best of both worlds?

author: singapol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 04:52:52 am
content: B1nary,So you have money to spend..sure by all means but it's just a hobby.The thing about hobbies is just how serious are you about it apart from curiosity? People buying expensive bicycles only to hang up the wall for display.Sure it's nice to have them just for bragging.I totally agree that to do professional work you need pro tools but again this is just a hobby.New broom sweeps clean but a little knowledge is dangerous as the saying goes.How often does your ham radio equipment needs fixing or alignment? At times buying a new piece of equipment is cheaper than trying to repair yourself with all things considered.But you may argue but I want to learn and it's fun.Fun at what cost?Let me illustrate by my own example experience, I'm also a retiree but dirt poor.I'm into audio repair so I bought a used ancient GW instek 8019g function generator with built in frequency counter.As usual since it's over 20 yrs. old I replaced all electrolytic capacitors in the hope it will be like new.Due to my ignorance after hooking up to my old analog crt scope the square wave at 10khz. had slightly rounded corners.In fact the specs. say 8019 is good up to 10khz. square only and the triangle wave had some distortionat 1 Mhz. So I tried to make the waveforms better by substituting better opamps and transistors at places where it mattered but it only slightly improved.This led me to learn that to generate a triangle wave to convert to a square wave is not child's play.I alsothen learn about input capacitance of scope front end and probe setting at 1X and 10X.what you will or can see.I learned that to generate a 1 Mhz. square wave (with sharp corners) using opamps one needs an opamp with a bandwidth of 1Ghz.It was indeed interesting.I also wanted to change the bandwidth capability to wider frequency which also led me to learn about RF frequency generation which there would be a limit using RC (resistor capacitor) methods used in this instrument.All in all I learn about waveform signal generation and oscilloscope capability in relation to scope bandwidth.Also to increase frequency counter capability the use of prescaler ic and it's workings. It's nice to be able to see things in action but in reality like physics there are some things that can't be seen like a Hick's boson but you can theoretically "see" it in elaborate lab test but at what cost?Coming back to audio as you said you want to fix some amps that you have now I would not recommend you use a megabuck scope where it's most likely to blow it if you are not careful(with murphy's law - anything that can go wrong..WILL.) Believe me you will want an old crt scope at 50 - 100mhz.to see noise with. So take your time and choose wisely and have fun.

author: B1nary
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 06:14:38 pm
content: Quote from: singapol on October 26, 2016, 04:52:52 amI think I may have left the impression I want a $10,000 scope. That is not the message I wanted to pass on. I said if I have to spend $10K, then that is what I will spend. Earlier in this sequence of posts I asked about what MSO scope a user had bought and learned it was a refurbished Keysight MSOX3034A upgraded to 500MHz with a full warranty. The price he quoted is within my budget and I would be happy with a scope like that as it seems it will do the kinds of things I need done. It is precisely that kind of information I hoped to get by coming here. There isn't anything I can do or offer in this area of expertise to repay those that offer advice except to say thank you. It did occur that my request for other than entry level gear when building a 'lab' might be a bit off the wall and perhaps after I am done selecting the items I can list what I decided on in hope it 'might' help anyone else in the same position. At least they would have a starting point to work from. The answer to the question of how often I will ever need to repair or align a piece of gear is a really good question. The answer I hope is not often, but I can tell you that the cost to send certain pieces of gear back East multiple times because it wasn't done right the first time is a great incentive, especially when the cost is already North over $10,000. There is only one place left doing this kind of work so he charges what the market will bear.If you are using a scope for the kinds of work I will 'try' to do - please- let me know. I still need a pretty big list of items and I will go through everything posted here with links. I need a frequency counter, (FM) Signal generator (add other things you think I should get now or I could put off till later.Thank you for all the good advice - (pardon me MC) "Priceless".

author: B1nary
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 06:43:27 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 25, 2016, 06:43:33 pm

author: singapol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 09:01:48 pm
content: Hope this will help you narrow down what you need: Of course find modern equivalents.https://www.reddit.com/r/rfelectronics/comments/49munu/equipment_for_building_a_home_rf_lab/http://www.ab4oj.com/test/main.htmlhttps://hamgear.wordpress.com/category/test-equipment/http://www.arrl.org/servicing-equipment

author: B1nary
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 08:54:48 pm
content: Quote from: singapol on October 26, 2016, 09:01:48 pmI spent the last few days going over all the responses and followed all the links. Thanks to everyone for replying. I've come up with a list of equipment that is based on the EEV YouTube site and reviews by several other users. This is by no means complete but it does go a long way to coming up with a list that I can use. Without getting into a war of words because someone thinks a certain piece is better than one I've listed - and it may well be, if you list the piece of equipment I'll go read up and it and perhaps add it to my list. If you think I've missed something let me know. I already know about patch cables, BNC connectors etc. This is what I've come up with thus far. BTW - if I am posting this in the wrong area please let me know and I can delete this (I hope) and post it in the proper place.Oscilloscopestill looking for suggestionsLab Power SupplyRigol DP832X seriesSiglent SPD 3303XDC Power SupplyAstron VS35Spectrum AnalyzerSiglent SSA3021XRigol DSA875Signal GeneratorNeed?Arbitrary Wave Form GeneratorSiglent SDG5162Rigol DG4162Capacitance MeterNeedRF VoltmeterNeedDigital VoltmeterFluke 189 and HP 34401A - haveSignal Generator- FM StandardRigol DSG815Audio Frequency Voltmeter (30Hz to 200KHz)HP 34401A?Frequency CounterOptoelectronics Digital ScoutNeedDe-soldering StationNeedVariable Temp Soldering StationWeller WESD51- haveWatt MeterBird 43 - haveHot Air Station/GunNeedSolder Fume FanNeedSide CuttersFlush CutCalipersMitotoyo-6”MagnetizerFor screw Drivers etc.Plastic Trim Tool SetNeedNo doubt I missed something.Suggestions?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 10:11:36 pm
content: It'd be nice if you can give us a little more on the specs you might require for a scope, BW, minimum sampling rate, memory depth requirement, channel #'s, MSO or not and any additional functionality you think you might need.Sig GenAWG's like you've listed can pretty much do anything you'll need, a additional dedicated sig gen might be quite unnecessary.Curious as to why you've listed a SDG5162, yeah nice units (160 MHz) with isolated outputs but later models from Siglent have more functionality. Is it just the isolated channels?If you don't need the isolation might I suggest you have a look at the SDG2122X ($300 cheaper)http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1364&T=2&tid=16QuoteWhile reviewers do a good job for prospective buyers, beware instruments do change, manufacturers update and fix functionality with firmware updates so points raised by reviewers can quickly become outdated.

author: pelule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 10:39:16 pm
content: Welcome to all that "crazy people" all over here in the forum. And congrat to your nxt step in life.Your most best decisions you already did - to start building up your own lab with quality tools. It even may save your live once.My by far best tip:Don't hurry - even the quest is a big fun already (I love to read brochures and specs of electronic equipment).It's better to wait one more day instead wasting money in soemthing you later hate because it's simply unusable.Or as one said once upon a time:The young may able to run all the way fast and easy, a wise man will take each possible short-cut.I took the same "road" some years ago, just because having fun in that stuff and as a mid-term preparation to my not such far away retirement.What I did:As you, I searched in the web for tips of "what would you need for your professional equipped home lab".Next I took that list of equipments and ordered the tools for the right-fit:- only quality tools made by known good manufactors (HP, Fluke, Datron, Philips...- the new buy price (my budget is limited anyhow, and additional cutted by the WAF / wife acceptance-factor)- offered features and their fit to my primary needs- which of them I would need first (for example to do repairs of later buys)- at last, what would be a fair price for that tool in the given condition (my limit)As next I checked if that tools are offered "need-repair" and started to hunt for.On each new gear arival I am happy like a child at christmas eve finding presents.Time to time I replace one against the next better class/version. The old I sell for a fair price (each selling is like loosing a baby thus).My first meter was an anlog Philips ($15), replaced next by an defekt Fluke 3.5 digit DMM, that I repaired.6 years have gone and my list of gears is huge meanwhile (total investment ~$11000)That's my list:AOYUE:850C (my latest hunt)Datron:1281,4600HP:3400A,3458A,34401A,3456A,3455A,400,419A,5316B,5005B,6624A,66309D,735A,8558B,8816AKeithley:2000Fluke:8506A,8840A,3330B,5450A,87V,87III,87Guildline:9152TP4Hakko:888DPREMA:3040KH:4601Grundig:RLC200Maynuo:M9712B (ok thats not a high quality gear in the first step, but I trust in Dave and "took it apart to check)Flir:i7Rigol:1104z (some as the Maynuo)Tek:464Weller: TP 21 (50W Regulated Soldering Station out of the 80s)Zeiss Dual-Lens Microskop from 1969, found it for $5 at a yard sale, my best hunt everSome of them I will never give away - my son, a engineer in electronics is hoping for a good legacy

author: B1nary
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 04:49:10 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 28, 2016, 10:11:36 pmI would love to give you the BW info as well as everything else but-and it's a big but-I thought I could come up with a scope as I said earlier on only to get frustrated with the comments and various manufacturers shooting each other down. The bottom line is I don't know and while recognizing this is my own fault it takes awhile to figure this out when just starting out. In order to allow others to make suggestions I said what I wanted was to fix a pile of high end stereo gear from the 1980's as well as my HAM gear which is mostly digital now. So if anyone else reads this I want (need??) a scope that will do that easily and as I get into this it will take me long ways down the road before I even have to consider getting a new one. So if you are doing or have done what I want to do then tell me what you use and which options you have. Trying to select gear when you are starting out feels like this

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 06:48:11 pm
content: Quote from: B1nary on October 29, 2016, 04:49:10 pmIn some ways, you created the scope quandary by saying you were wiling to spend up to $10k on one. Well, that's a pretty professional price and most of the responses are from hobbyists. We don't spend that kind of money on a scope. Yes, a 500 MHz Keysight will fill all of your needs. And needs you will probably never have.If you actually want to see the carrier of a 2 meter repeater then you're going to need something up into the 200 MHz range and, in that case, you should consider one of the better scopes. But if you now want to just look at the digital stuff, you can pretty much bet it's less than 100 MHz and probably a LOT less. Most microcontrollers can't wiggle pins anywhere near 50 MHz. Even my FPGA projects are in the 10-15 MHz range on the pins. Internally, the logic is a lot faster but I can't get in there anyway. On the rare occasions where I brought out a high speed signal (or bus), I used a logic analyzer. A scope simply wouldn't be adequate. At the time, I didn't have a DSO, just a simple analog scope.Check the manual on your ham equipment and see if it says how fast the digital stuff is running. I'll bet it is in the 10 MHz range.Stereo? Well, that's pretty low frequency stuff. 20 kHz ought to cover it and a 1 MHz scope is more than enough. You don't need anything like 100 MHz for audio.It's very difficult coming into this game and trying to buy equipment. The biggest problem is not knowing what you will be doing down the road. There is always a desire to cover all future possibilities. Well, that simply doesn't work because you can get hung up in analysis paralysis.I don't do ham radio so I know exactly nothing. However, I do a bit of digital and some analog and here's where I come out: I want 4 channels more than I want bandwidth. I suspect that most everything I do will be well covered by a 100 MHz scope. I really like serial decoding, it speeds up the process of bringing a project to life. I want the storage feature and single shot capability. I simply don't have those with my old analog scope. So, I bought the DS1054Z to augment my Tek 485 which I will keep on the off chance I need the 350 MHz bandwidth. The features of the 1054 just blow that 485 away!For $400, how wrong can I be? If all I do is learn how to use a modern DSO, it's money well spent! Education has never been free... $400 won't even buy a semester's worth of text books.When it is no longer useful, I sell it off for a couple of hundred bucks, charge the rest off to education and move on. Meanwhile, I didn't break the bank and I was able to afford that DP832 I have been wanting. That's a pretty nice power supply and it sure beats bashing stuff together.In my view, you're overthinking this stuff. Get something, learn to use it and when it isn't adequate, get something else. Over-buying up front may not be the best strategy. The price/performance curve is exponential so getting something twice as good can cost 4 times as much, or more. There are still scopes around in the $100k+ range.

author: B1nary
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 07:20:00 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 29, 2016, 06:48:11 pmBased on the note of the gear needs I should get at a minimum 300MHz MSO 4 ch so I don't run up against the scopes limitation where I ask it to do something past half it's BW rating - (I guess I've learned something from coming here) But when I get up into the UHF range - the IF's on some stuff are in the 350+ MHZ range (and some up from there). You are certainly correct in saying some, if not all of this is my own fault. In stating I was willing to spend $10,000 "if I had to" I've given users the impression I want to spent that amount and that certainly isn't/wasn't my intent. What you've done in your reply is very helpful and it gives me a direction I can look (helpful when you're lost). I simply want gear that will do what I need and a bit. As you will have seen in the list I came up with most of the stuff is in the lower to mid range. I'm not a pro and as others stated this is just a hobby - precipitated by the $1000's +++ I've already spent for others to fix my stuff. Education can be expensive but the learning should at least be fun - that's the bit I'm looking forward to.Thank You.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 09:20:48 pm
content: Ok, here's your used 500 MHz Keysight, from Keysight, by way of eBay, for $3700. Save about $20,000

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 09:41:10 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 29, 2016, 09:20:48 pmYou forgot the link:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-MSO6054A-Oscilloscope-500-MHz-4-16-Ch-Agilent-MSO6054A-/191928264018

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 09:44:23 pm
content: I think that the display on that MSO60xx will appear (to the OP) to be very small with tiny fonts. We have loads of similar scopes at work. They are very popular and work well (also very easy/intuitive to drive) but I'm not so sure the display fonts will be easy to read for a more mature user.QuoteI agree.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 09:51:24 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on October 29, 2016, 09:41:10 pmOops! Glad you caught it!

author: B1nary
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 03:20:34 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 29, 2016, 09:20:48 pmFound a firm in the city that does a bunch of satellite development and are upgrading a few of their scopes. One is a mso3054. Seems a "low end" 500 MHz BW just isn't adequate. So I have an offer in but it's certainly not in the price range of the linked scope. But it is in CDA $$. I'll contact them to see about a power cord. Why does a scope not come with a power cord?Thanks for going the extra mile.

author: B1nary
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2016, 10:50:07 pm
content: Quote from: B1nary on November 01, 2016, 03:20:34 amThought I would provide an update on the equipment. There are a number of people in this series who provided a lot of help and did a lot of footwork for me. Thanks for that. I lost the bid on the Keysight 3054 but not by much and then looked at the link for the 6054 at $3700. During that search I came across the Keysight Technical Contact Center and was referred by the Keysight sales people to a Scope specialist (didn't know such specialized people existed). The fellows name is Andrew Toth and he had the patience of a saint, especially considering how new I am to this. Apparently there are a number of equipment specialist in various areas of the equipment they sell and a call to ask questions, even n00b questions is free. If anyone else is looking for gear and just wants to ask a question you can contact these guys (girls) here:Keysight Contact an Expert Support site:http://www.keysight.com/main/contactInformation.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&nid=-11143.0&pageMode=SS&tmprop=TMKeysight Product Selection Experts site:http://www.keysight.com/main/contactInformation.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&nid=-11143.0&pageMode=PSE&tmprop=TMThere was no up-sell. Just facts based on what I wanted to do and my plans for the future. With the ePROMO option my cost was well below $10,000 (mentioned earlier). I did buy the Siglent SAS 3021X 2.1GHz Spectrum Analyzer as well as the Siglent 120MHz AWG. Went with the Rigol 832 Power Supply. All of the major items have been purchased (except a decent frequency counter-although one is built in to a couple of the above items including the scope).According to number of the links a user submitted I should be looking for a higher end counter that can reach 1.5GHz. I've seen the HP53131A and 53132A on eBay at some decent prices but they were in fairly bad shape and no 1.5GHz option. If anyone has a suggestion for a 10 or 12 digit counter (1.5GHz could you let me know). I did look at the B&K Precision 10 digit and 12 digit series but frequency stability didn't seem to be as good (1ppm)as the old HP 5313 series so I didn't pursue it. If you have one of the B&K Precision 10 or 12 digit counters can you let me know what you think about it (them).FWIW - my total cost for all the items listed in my "shopping list"with shipping is 2 Starbucks Grandes less than $12,600. Still a lot !!! but certainly not as much as thought. Yes, I'm fortunate.