Best ESR meter for in-circuit (even if it is not accurate) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: RiRaRi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2023, 06:39:10 pm
content: Is the best option ESR70? I heard it has some issues. As i heard it is more accurate to measure with ESR meters and not with LCR meter like DER DE 5000 if we are talking about in-circut.

author: 4thDoctorWhoFan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2023, 06:53:14 pm
content: I use my DE5000 all the time for in circuit testing with no problems.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2023, 07:02:15 pm
content: But what answer do you get when the capacitor in question is hard-wired to other stuff, even with the power off?Henry IV, part I, act III, scene 1:Glendower. I can call spirits from the vasty deep.Hotspur (Henry Percy). Why, so can I, or so can any man;But will they come when you do call for them?

author: xtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2023, 07:07:08 pm
content: My favourite:https://www.evbesrmeter.pt/

author: RiRaRi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2023, 03:12:03 pm
content: What is more accurate for in-circuit: ESR meter like Bob Parker and ESR70 or LCR like DER DE 5000?

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2023, 03:23:27 pm
content: any esr meter that outputs voltage test under 0.6V, so read the specification of YOUR esr meter.the DE5000 is ok.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2023, 03:26:42 pm
content: I've heard a lot about the Capacitor Wizard being the only reliable meter for in-circuit ESR testing. I don't have one and can't validate the claims.https://www.midwestdevices.com/

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2023, 04:14:30 pm
content: Would think that the Lab Bench type LCR Meters which allow output voltage level settings should work with in-circuit Cap ESR measurements, altho we haven't tried such. Setting a voltage level of 100mvp or less should keep even SBD out of conduction and allow decent in-circuit representative readings.Best,

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2023, 04:32:56 pm
content: My Hantek 1833C supports 0.3V and 0.6V test voltages. As I recall the highest-end Uni-T 622 and EastTester (don't remember model#) handhelds support any test voltage in 1mV increments up to I believe 1V.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2023, 06:50:44 pm
content: Quotethe datasheet says "only" 0.1V 0.3V or 1Vhttps://static.eleshop.nl/mage/media/downloads/UT622Datesheet.pdf

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2023, 06:58:14 pm
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on August 30, 2023, 06:50:44 pmMy bad, apparently my recollection was wrong. However the East Tester ET433 does support 10mV-1.1V in 1mV increments.

author: u666sa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 03:23:23 pm
content: Believe it or not, it is Hantek 1833C, it has test voltage 300 mv and 600 mv, and more frequencies than any other LCR meter, 100Hz, 120Hz, 400Hz, 1kHz, 4kHz, 10kHz, 40kHz, 50kHz, 75kHz, 100kHz. Plus it's cheap. On ali right now it is 12000 rubles, just around $125. Plus it has 3 speed modes, fast, medium and slow. It's a fast meter with rechargable batteries that last you long time.CEM meter cost just as much but it is slow.DER does its job well, but has less frequencies and costs a lot of money.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 03:53:46 pm
content: At USD prices the Hantek 1833C and DE-5000 cost around the same ~$140. I chose the 1833C over the DE-5000 not so much for functionality improvements (I don't think I'll ever use ALL of those extra frequencies) though I do use the different test voltages, and do wish it had an even-lower 100mv test range to avoid issues with in-circuit Schottkies. My main concern with the DE-5000 was the poor UX that many people described. The UI+UX of the Hantek is quite good IMO and I'm happy with it.If I were buying another handheld in the <$300 range I'd probably go with the Uni-T 622E or ET433 to get the additional test voltage capability. But likely my next LCR meter will be a bench model.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 04:30:45 pm
content: I have done measurements on capacitors installed in relatively simple circuits by exploiting the guard terminal on my DE-5000, and on bench instruments at work.Done properly, the guard terminal removes the current through external components, measuring only that through the capacitor under test, but that can be hard to implement on more complicated circuits.

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 07:11:23 pm
content: Hi RiRaRi,You may check outthis one.Performs in-circuit measurements (DUT power must be off) and is easy to use. Rather expensive, but it's a reliable gear.

author: RiRaRi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2023, 06:24:25 pm
content: IMHO ESR70 is better because it measures at different frequencys. Is it worth the money?

author: RiRaRi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2023, 06:41:41 pm
content: Why exactly would you need different testing voltage in order to test ESR? Which voltage to select and when

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2023, 06:48:57 pm
content: for the voltages, you need less than 0.3V not to activate any schottky component on your board. if you don't have any, a voltage less than 0.6V is ok, again not to activate any semiconductor on the board. so the in-circuit test is more accurate.for the frequency, 100Hz 1Khz and 100Khz are enough. I don't see the interest in other frequencies for esr testing.... and I almost only measure it at 100KHz except when it is a large capacitor the de5000 forces me to use 100 or 120Hz

author: graybeard
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2023, 08:08:34 pm
content: This thread got mt interesting in looking at the Peak ESR70. Page 10 of the ESR70 manual there is a graph of typical ESR values. I recreated it so I could put it up in my lab. I am sharing it here.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2023, 04:44:04 am
content: My personal preference is to use a separate ESR meter for quick test use inciruit. Easier to grab, always setup for 2 wire measurement with the right probes. I want to avoid damaging my LCR meter so an alternate meter with superior input protection helps prevent that.I have the older Bob Parker Australian sold kitset versions. EA/Dick Smith (original), Silicon Chip/Dick Smith and newer Altronics (MkII). They work very well and easy to read, zero and operate. Diode modded they have robust input protection. 100mV test voltage, 10 milliohm resolution. Since these came in kit form, full schematics and detailed explanation of the circuit are provided. Fully repairable.The latest Bob Parker designed Blue 2 has 1 milliohm resolution, 50mV test voltage. There is an optional audio/talking version. Doesn't mention if the diode extra input protection mod can be added, it's 50V max despite that.https://evbesrmeter.pt/blue2esr.htmAlternatelyJay_Diddy_B's esr adapter projectwhich I also own, includes robust diode input protection, 2 and 4 wire testing and 100mV test voltage. It works with a multimeter so 1 milliohm or greater resolution possible depending on multimeter.Edit:I like the DE5000 as well, just not for incircuit testing. The Capacitor Wizard is an analog meter which doesn't work well for me comparing small measurements, it's threshold feature seems not necessary on a digital meter.The Peak has discharge and capacitance features but I don't find that necessary as I discharge caps myself and own a multimeter for capacitance. Mainly I'm just not a fan of miniaturized pieces of test equipment with small displays and non standardized probe sockets.My previous ramblings on this subject can be found in this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/low-cost-cap-tester-esr-lcr-2018/msg1548833/#msg1548833If you find this post helpful leave a thanks.

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2023, 07:35:15 am
content: I watched Mr Carlson's Yaesu power supply repair video, last night - here he makes use of his ESR tweezers.[edited to add link]https://www.lcr-reader.com/

author: HalFoster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2023, 10:31:49 am
content: @Shock-+1 for this reply - while I have lab quality LCR meters (WK 6425, GW LCR6100) that are easily capable of in circuit measurements, the small hand held model is what I use to do initial checks. Much easier to use quickly and, as pointed out, less risk if something goes wrong (what, those line filter caps *weren't* discharged?). Of course keep in mind that they usually only test for ESR and C at limited frequencies and can easily miss a capacitor that is completely shot as far as the requirements of the circuit goes.Hal

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2023, 10:37:11 am
content: You don't necessarily need to own a tweezer tool to get the benefit of one (I've already been down this path). If your esr/lcr meter is socketed you can buy plain tweezer test leads (in 2 and 4 wire). Easy to then swap between probes, tweezers, alligator/croc clips, smd or through hole fixtures for measurements (as the usage case arises).Edit:Hal, I'll often start with a capacitor discharge (resistive discharge probe), check voltages, then dc resistance check and then capacitance. Unless my gut tells me otherwise after I've done esr I'll move back to the symptom, but I acknowledge theres a handful more failure modes.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2023, 01:55:10 pm
content: Had to laugh at Carlsons discharger in that video, it's huge. Reminded me tweezers also don't play well with conformal coating and residues/oxidation. My guess was the resistor, was a good video.

author: RiRaRi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2023, 03:14:49 pm
content: QuoteWould you mind explaining this a little more? thanks