EEVblog #985 - Siglent SDS1202X-E Oscilloscope Teardown - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 01:02:47 am
content: Teardown of the new *unreleased* Siglent SDS1202X-E 200MHz $379 oscilloscope!NOTE: This is the 100MHz 1102E which will never be released, but it's the same hardware.

author: Neo2199
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 01:17:23 am
content: This might inspire the Rigol to release something new maybe?

author: KrZ
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 02:46:01 am
content: Thanks, I'm thrilled about this. I hope you do a performance review, especially fft. I have been holding off buying a digital scope since the usually recommended rigol is getting "old"

author: ProBang2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 02:55:34 am
content: 200 MHz bandwith, serial decoding (incl. CAN!) as standard, better FFT and probably faster responding as the 1054z - that all together for US 379$.WOW! Very impressive! That´sreallyhard to beat!Seems, the only leftover advantage of the Rigol 1054z is: It has four channels...(Imagine a 1204X-S for US 399$)Let´s hope, they don´t weaken with the firmware.Obviously: Time for the next move of Rigol. In the meantime:I am really looking forward to the review of the 1202X-E.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 03:02:27 am
content: Only 2 relays on the front end as the X-E doesn't have a 50input AFAIK, only 1 M.The mainboard is very much the same size as the C*L and Plus models.PSU looks exactly the same as used in C*L models too and BTW I've not heard of any Siglent DSO PSU failures despite what youalwaysmention of the caps used in Siglent PSU's.How long have they been using Leylon ? I think at least since the first teardowns you did, probably longer so they can't be that bad or Siglent would've moved to another brand.Notice Siglent roll their own PSU, not some off the shelf item that they can't maintain the spec and QC of.

author: kgharibyan
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 03:33:15 am
content: PASent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

author: Villain
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 03:44:40 am
content: this might sound like a stupid question but how can you decode spi with 2 inputs only?

author: gir
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 04:14:08 am
content: dave, /bin/ash is the busybox shell - you've got superuser access right into the linux environment there - woohoo!where's the dump though?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 04:18:45 am
content: Definitely a great moment now to see the competing parties raising up their bet on entry level scopes.We as the potential customers are winning.

author: TNorthover
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 04:36:18 am
content: Quote from: Villain on April 04, 2017, 03:44:40 amYou would only get one direction, and it'd cover all devices, but a CLK/DATA pair seems like something you could make use of.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 04:43:39 am
content: It looks nice, much cleaner front panel than the ugly Rigol stuff. The lack of rust inside is encouraging. Hopefully that is consistent and not that Dave was just lucky or it was a special unit.I wish the manufacturers would get away from the nursery school color schemes though. Are the only trace color options really yellow and pink? Something wrong with the traditional blue-green of crt scopes?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 05:00:45 am
content: Quote from: rdl on April 04, 2017, 04:43:39 amBlue and green are the colours for ch 3 and 4 on Siglent DSO's.Until I get one in my hot hands I think the case is very similar to the existing C*L and Plus models and while I'm guessing probably part of the reason they have kept the price down by not having to rework the case.I'll grab a CML Plus and compare it against the front and rear shots early in the vid.Nah, the power button is bottom left, not a push button switch on top of the case like the C*L models.Option buttons are below the display not on the right of the display like C*L models and this configuration brings it into line with most other Siglent DSO's.

author: Marinated
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 05:13:14 am
content: Quote from: tautech on April 04, 2017, 03:02:27 amI don't want to derail but that is a slightly surprising and suspiciously silly slippery slope argument. It's not like they depend on the performance of any other third party components in this design amirite?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 05:23:15 am
content: Quote from: Marinated on April 04, 2017, 05:13:14 amOnly offered as an observation.Over the years there have been a # of threads here with failures of scope PSU's, in many cases they have not been made by the scope manufacturer. Could you call this modus operandi a weak link ? I do.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 05:44:24 am
content: Quote from: Villain on April 04, 2017, 03:44:40 amSPI is usually, Clock, Data and Chip Select. You only need clock and data to decode SPI.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 05:47:14 am
content: Quote from: ProBang2 on April 04, 2017, 02:55:34 amhopefully they'd add MSO capability to ext trigger. i'm sure it has to be sampled at the same rate as the analog channels anyway

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 06:25:41 am
content: Quote from: tautech on April 04, 2017, 05:23:15 amPeople who do one thing tend to get really good at it. As long as you avoid the cowboy suppliers, a PSU from a specialist is likely to give far better results than one designed in house as a side line. Also, if a commercially available supply is used, its generally cheap and simple to replace.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 07:52:23 am
content: Quote from: Villain on April 04, 2017, 03:44:40 amSCLK, and MISO or MISO (take your pick), CS is done with timeout.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 07:54:55 am
content: Quote from: gir on April 04, 2017, 04:14:08 amI'll dump the final production 200MHz model, it's on the Fedex truck.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 08:02:17 am
content: Quote from: kgharibyan on April 04, 2017, 03:33:15 amMaybe soon I've been hinted, shhh don't tell everyone.But I think it will be an option.

author: dgarlans
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 12:01:50 pm
content: When will the scope actually be available? I'm in the market for a new scope sometime in the next couple months and this one seems pretty nice for the price. It seems like the -E version isn't actually available yet. I was getting worried seeing only $550+ scopes on Amazon.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 12:15:16 pm
content: They should really allow Triger when using serial decoding!Alexander.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 12:30:09 pm
content: Finally a board design that does not look as being stolen from elswhere on Shenzhen Wednesday.

author: lem_ix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 01:32:33 pm
content: If the release version works as advertised this will be great valueCheaper then decode options on some scopes

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 02:49:09 pm
content: On that log 2nd HC595 failed.. maybe it's duplicate init code from a 4 channel unit? Could be driving the NEC relay's.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 03:01:32 pm
content: Nice review. I find the multi-layer board completely mind boggling. Is that routed by human, computer or magic? It's also completely awesome that those many layer boards are becoming such commodities.As far as the scope is concerned it is looking like interesting times... just need some manufacturer to have 4 channels for the price of 2 with serial decode and I'll be up for an upgrade (almost tempted for the Rigol but it is starting to look like an old model now).

author: GreggD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 03:40:36 pm
content: R185, Why is this oversized novelty resistor doing in the oscillator over-thruster ?

author: bittumbler
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 04:10:48 pm
content: The capacitors in the power supply have that white goo over their vents.Is this o.k? Will the vents still work?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 05:45:38 pm
content: Quote from: lem_ix on April 04, 2017, 01:32:33 pmMaybe this will the the straw that breaks that particular camel's back.(Fingers crossed...)

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 05:54:34 pm
content: What a boring scope!Already comes with full bandwidth, serial decoding is included, UART connector nice and easy, just waiting to be plugged, console that boot into root shellNothing left to hackto Siglent

author: jimdeane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 06:13:17 pm
content: I'm happy with my purchase back in late '15, but I've kept my eye on scopes with the thought of "what scope would I buy right now if I was in the market for my first scope". Answer has stayed 1054 for a long time, but I'm thinking it just changed.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 06:13:52 pm
content: I can see it taking quite a few sales away from Rigol at that price, even with only two channels.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 06:21:54 pm
content: Could they have put the caps in the power supply any nearer to the heat sink?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 06:44:04 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on April 04, 2017, 05:23:15 amThat is mainly due to way more units sold and older equipment. Rolling your own PSU is just a waste of resources and there are many ways to screw up reliability (like having electrolytics close to heatsinks as seen on the video). Also it will be easier to get a replacement for a generic PSU than a proprietary one.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 06:48:16 pm
content: Quote from: dgarlans on April 04, 2017, 12:01:50 pmTo dealers in the next week or two, then with the time to have them shipped some of us should have them before the end of this month.

author: tigrou
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 07:21:53 pm
content: Hi. I have two questions related to the PSU :- Why do we have two six pins (usually they are 4 pins) optocouplers ? Isn't one enough ?- What is the purpose of the two mosfets (with big heatsinks) on the left side (low voltage board side) ? The one on the right (high voltage board) is acting as a switch for the SMPS I presume.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 07:56:21 am
content: Quote from: tigrou on April 04, 2017, 07:21:53 pmA little tip. See the directions of information transfer.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 08:05:08 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on April 05, 2017, 07:56:21 amI doubt it - normally only one signal, sensing the secondary regulated voltage, crosses the barrier back to the primary-side control IC. The second optoisolator is probably carrying the 'line trigger' signal from primary side to secondary side.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 08:17:27 am
content: Quote from: nfmax on April 05, 2017, 08:05:08 amThis is not information transfer??

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 08:42:25 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on April 05, 2017, 08:17:27 amCertainly it is; but it is not, as the original question asks, 'part of the PSU', even though it is on the PSU PWA.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 12:55:05 pm
content: You had a full blown shell on the prompt there, ash is the shell. Try run some of the following to get some interesting information out:Code:cat /proc/cpuinfocat /proc/meminfoAnd you can list all the files, provided it has the tool installedCode:find /

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 01:18:26 pm
content: Quote from: gnif on April 05, 2017, 12:55:05 pmFrom the video:Quote from: gnif on April 05, 2017, 12:55:05 pmIt also has the OS, kernel version, etc.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 01:33:29 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 05, 2017, 01:18:26 pm1) they were examples2) cpuinfo will show more then the boot up, such as supported feature set3) meminfo will show how much memory the OS is consuming4) find will list all files, among which some will stand out as custom things silent have written and might make for an interesting peek at.

author: Stephan_T
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 02:17:45 pm
content: Hi Dave,you may also try the commands "mount" and "df" while a USB memory stick is connected. This way you can find out where it is mounted and than you can copy config files from the Scope to the stick for further external investigation.For example withCode:cp -R /etc /whatever-path-the USB-drive-is-mounted-toyou could copy the entire /etc directory to the stick.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 08:45:28 pm
content: BTW hopefully the scope comes with the necessary GNU license and an offer to receive the source code of the GPL-licensed parts, which it won't spill all the secret Siglent sauce but it could reveal something interesting anyway.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 02:14:37 pm
content: Rigol Should build a 4 channel one using similar hardware to this, why they did not do it 4 channel, they have the ADC and the ZYNQ, they just needed to add the front end

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 02:48:58 pm
content: Quote from: NivagSwerdna on April 04, 2017, 03:01:32 pmThey're not that hard to make...There are much more complex boards in your computer and phone. They've been relatively low cost, commodity items for many years.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 03:03:45 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 10, 2017, 02:48:58 pmThe whole point of having more layers is to make iteasierto route.Can't find a route for a wire? Add another layer!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 11:48:47 pm
content: ... beats a bodge wire any day of the week - and twice on Sundays!

author: mash107
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 04:28:21 am
content: Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on April 10, 2017, 02:14:37 pmat a $370 that's a tall order. You'd need another dual channel 1GSPS ADC ($100-$200 itself) and 2 front ends to make a four channel scope.I think if Siglent offered a similar four channel 200MHz scope for less than $500 (or even slightly above), they'd obliterated the ciompetition (e.g. DS1104Z)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 07:42:50 am
content: Quote from: mash107 on April 11, 2017, 04:28:21 amWith serial decoders, etc., included? They'd own the market up to $2000+.(which is why it won't ever happen)

author: Pitrsek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 11:46:26 am
content: According to the datasheet, serial decoders are included as standadrdhttps://mediacdn.eu/m/media/wysiwyg/siglent/Downloads/DataSheet/SDS1000X-E%20SpecSheet.pdf

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 01:52:52 pm
content: QuoteI think the ADC inside was 4 channel already!?

author: chipss
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 02:29:29 pm
content: makes me wonder if this is usable?The new math co-processor enables FFT analysis of incoming signalsusing up to 1M samples per waveform. This provides high frequencyresolution with a fast refresh rate. The FFT function also supports avariety of window functions so that it can adapt to different spectrummeasurement needs.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 10:03:35 pm
content: Thread to recent discussions of SDS1202X-Ehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-based-on-xilinx-zynq-7000-soc-architecture/

author: JanJansen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 04:38:37 pm
content: Hi, why costs this scope $379.00 in America, and € 434,39 in Europe ?, even while the euro is worth more then a dollar.Always the same story for many products, i want the same price!, if i order from USA i have no warranty normally.$379.00 :http://www.saelig.com/product/sds1202x-e.htm€ 434,39 :http://www.eleshop.nl/siglent-sds1202x-e.htmlAnd howcome its discontinued at this site ?, its a new scope :http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=sds1202x-s&guid=9c60417bc1b04066aea4b9cca05f7a03&s=1&F_Suggestions=sds1202x-s&F_OriginalKeyword=SDS1202X-EThat says something right ?

author: Jono427
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 04:43:43 pm
content: Quote from: JanJansen on May 04, 2017, 04:38:37 pmThat's the "-S" model. They don't have the -E, so it offered you that since it's close to your search.

author: FloFo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 04:45:01 pm
content: 1) You should be aware that most US online shops list prices without tax (AFAIR because taxes are different for every state), while the price in Euro is with taxes. European price without taxes is 359,- €, so nothing to complain here ...2) your Tequipment-Site lists results for SDS1202x-S, not for SDS1202X-E

author: JanJansen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 04:53:07 pm
content: Ah thanks i see it now, u sure the USA shop is without tax ?, cant find it.

author: Jono427
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 05:00:12 pm
content: Quote from: JanJansen on May 04, 2017, 04:53:07 pmYeah, the US system is way to complicated. It's usually calculated at checkout.Each state (and sometimes the county or city) have different rules on how much and if they need to collect it. When people mention that they ordered online to not pay sales tax, they are technically breaking the law (because you still "have" to pay it). The general rule is if you have a physical location in the state the store must collect the tax, and if the store does not collect then it's the purchasers responsibility to remit it to the state in their tax payment. So it depends on where they are and where they are shipping it to on if the store will collect it.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 07:23:52 pm
content: Quote from: JanJansen on May 04, 2017, 04:38:37 pmIt does.TQ no longer have distribution rights for Siglent.I don't know why and don't want to.Politics I guess.Saelig have been doing a good job AFAIK and offer the same discounts for EEVblog members.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/equipment-discounts-from-saelig/

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2017, 08:29:34 am
content: Some comments from the Xilinx forum:https://forums.xilinx.com/t5/Xcell-Daily-Blog/Dave-Jones-tears-down-the-new-lt-400-Zynq-powered-Siglent/ba-p/758656

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2017, 09:15:44 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on April 04, 2017, 03:02:27 amNot really sure why Lelon Cap's get such a hard time here and are associated only with entry level 'B' brands. Had no issues with the Lelon Caps in a 13 year old Tek TDS2024. It failed due to a failure with the National Semi ADC.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2017, 09:32:25 pm
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on June 05, 2017, 09:15:44 pmI've got a busted TDS2012B, a pin on one of the IC's got some contaminant on it and rotted through.Kept getting errors on boot and only found a tiny black spot on the pin but it was corroded right through.As for the Siglent PSU's, they are designed but Siglent but contract manufactured for them.Mainboards seem to have Nichicon's and the like but despite that the PSU's give zero problems that I know of.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 09:07:26 am
content: There's been new firmware released:SDS1202X-E firmware updateVersion 5.1.3.135.4 Mbhttp://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/SDS1000X-E_5.1.3.13.zipChangelog1. Cursor values not correct if probe attenuation was not set to 1X2. Removed channel input impedance of 50?3. Added external load setting to FFT menu. If using an external load, amplitudes can be shown in dBm4. Repaired intermittent lock up after enabling decoding function5. Optimized translation for German and English menus and pop messages6. Removed Option label from UI7. Corrected cursor measurements for active Zoom with FFT8. Added telnet(port 5024) and open socket(port 5025) for LAN communication9. Fixed blank zoom bug. With both channels at 2 ms/div, 7 Mpts, and a zoom of 500 ns/div, the zoom window would blank.10. Fixed decode threshold levels for 10X probe attenuation selection.11. Fixed average mode. After pressing [Run/Stop] to halt acquisition, the display changed to the last waveform, rather than maintaining the averaged waveform12. Remain the final message for firmware update until rebooted13. Fixed the issue with Chinese language setting after self- calibration.14. Fixed the CAN source bug. If the source selected was CANH or CANL, decode would not work correctly.15. Decreased waveform jitter with active measurements or math with horizontal delay out of the screen.16. Added progress information while saving CSV files.17. Fixed the Cycle RMS measurement does not update when the input signal changes18. Keep “Print” picture type in accordance with the type selected from “Save/Recall”19. Fixed user file renaming of a previously saved file.20. Enabled decoding for time bases above 20ms/div.21. Disable menu if cursors, measurement and math is disabled22. Finished updates to support EasyScopeX and Labview driver.23. Optimized channel self-calibration

author: ganzuul
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 11:53:44 am
content: Anybody know if a competitor is about to blow them out of the water or if now is a good time to place my order for this scope?

author: Muessigb
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2017, 01:46:57 pm
content: What an impressive scope!I have waited a few months after Dave's video, but then jumped right in.It's a very worthwhile replacement for my Siglent SDS1102CML.