Ham clubs should become more maker-friendly, to broaden the hobby's appeal. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / rf-microwave

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 04:14:09 pm
content: let me pose a hypothetical.If a ham builds an SDR, say from a kit, or even designs one themselves, say using FPGAs or even just a Softrock design transceiver that leverages their computers sound card(s)But it implements a low power transceiver, so, they have an obligation to make sure its signal is where it should be, and clean.How do they get access to the tools, especially a good quality spectrum analyzer so they can be sure its not only working but is also putting out a clean signal so they wont break laws?What I am really getting at is the old models of ham brotherhood, although good, (emergency response, civil defense, etc) are getting a bit long in the tooth and are not enough to keep the hobby going. It will die out. What is enough to is if it becomes more participatory, as in home brewing, like maker spaces.Seems like there is a huge ready made group of potential hams in the maker community, and hams should also embrace the concept of time-nuttery more in that context because measurement is the gateway drug to doing real science. Then every kid who was into science, if they wanted to start doing science would have access to tools. Wouldnt it be great if all those kids entering engineering school all already knew not only how to solder but had already found some areas they were so interested in they had done fairly advanced stuff in it. Thats the kind of student who will make real use of an engineering education. Otherwise technology will become a black box with dont touch me written all over it soon. It will be captured by the State - and not in a good way. For it to stay honest there needs to be makers, a lot of them.Internet of Things is pretty complex stuff and they need a multidisciplinary set of tools to understand it. Then those technologies can become integrated into amateur radio so ham spectrum can be used. Otherwise they will gradually or perhaps not so gradually lose it.We have to realize that science is participatory, and not necessarily wedded to formal learning, because formal learning is too slow and it will only take you so far unless you have money to burn, more and more kids (and grownups) dont.That doesn't mean we should abandon science, although I am sure a lot of people would like us to. Science can be recreational as well as satisfying on its own merits, it doesn't have to be attached to anything else. the same goes for electronics, amateur radio or anything of this nature.It also will keep people sane and thinking positively. Thats worth its weight in gold. Its worth more than gold, in fact.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 04:30:50 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on June 25, 2017, 04:14:09 pmI wish it was that easy but most hams I know neither build things not have the test equipment or knowledge to check any more than voltages or output power/SWR with the basic meters sold. I've had hams over to my shack/lab and when I show them the test equipment I have it's like a deer in the headlights look. They don't have a clue unless it's a DMM or SWR meter. There might be a few in a club that know how (I wouldn't set foot in any ham radio club myself), but most are content to talk SSB or try a few digital modes until they get burned out, and talk about whether they'd rather go to Denny's or IHOP for breakfast.Many don't really know how a radio works at more than an overview level as to what knobs to press to make it transmit CW or SSB or FM. I've asked hams before how much power does an SSB radio put out if it's set to 100W and you say nothing into the Mic, and they don't know. What that means is that people memorize the answers to the tests and pass them, but they don't know what they just answered.There are probably many makers that would be interested in ham radio, but the last thing I would do is send them to a ham radio club, I'm sorry to say.But, I'm sure you will have disagreements in the thread.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 05:07:52 pm
content: That is a problem. I dont think they really understand how crucial this issue is.We have to rise to the challenge, its not difficult, its fun. However I am sorry to say I am also terrified of that kind of "club".It just doesn't do it for me, either. OTOH, I would be totally jazzed if I could find other experimenters who wanted to build and test stuff.Its a hobby that potentially could bring people of all backgrounds, cultures, etc. together.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 06:09:38 pm
content: Must be more an American problem. Here a Ham licence is technically a 'Radio Experimenters Licence', and projects are encouraged. While it has multiple choice exams the question set it not published, so a basic understanding of the theory is required to pass.

author: 4CX35000
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 08:49:30 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on June 25, 2017, 06:09:38 pmI suppose it is too easy to buy a Chinese black box.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 09:22:14 pm
content: Thats always been my understanding too here in the US. Hams are supposed to be radio and communications experimenters.I think thats a major point of ham radio, or should be. A common language also.As far as black boxes, Baofeng is to be commended for making such an affordable, decent radio considering the price. Cheap+good is good.The high cost of equipment is preventing a lot of people who otherwise might be hams from doing so. If a company brought out a modern but cheap Baofeng equivalent for SSB and CW and digital modes, I and a great many people would be overjoyed.From everything that I can tell, Chinese hams are exactly the same as US hams in terms of their interests, and younger, on the average than other groups of hams elsewhere. So, thats a good thing.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 10:10:46 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on June 25, 2017, 09:22:14 pmI think there are a lot of electronics / RF inclined people who have Ham licenses, but you won't necessarily find them at clubs, for many of the reasons listed above. Some people get the license so that it can enable them to experiment outside of the 900MHz/2.4/5GHz swamp, and some people just get it for socialization.Ham radio used to be one of the only cheap ways to communicate long distance prior to the Internet, so I think a lot of people got into it just to talk on the radio. Not surprisingly, the people who want to socialize end up congregating moreso than the ones that don't. I don't have a huge issue with it though; the more people who get licensed (for whatever reason), the longer we can keep the bands from being auctioned off for commercial use.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 10:18:05 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on June 25, 2017, 09:22:14 pmThey are - up to a point ...Let me give you a few examples. I've repaired many HF and VHF/UHF radios for other hams. Some problems were harder than others, but here's the point - many of them don't even try to figure it out. Just to be clear - these are not brand new hams, they have been licensed for years and are mature adult intelligent people.For example, I worked on a Yaesu FT-757 (an older rig) for a ham. He said it didn't transmit anything but did receive. Well, it turns out that the issue was very simple - the drive rf from for the PA from the previous stage was missing. The cause was a loose rf cable coming from the board on the other side of the radio. All I did was follow the schematic and trace signals. The fix was simply to re-seat the connector.Another ham had an older 6 meter radio - it wouldn't come on at all. Turns out on that one the power wire was corroded and broke off inside it. Very simple.Another one was simply a cleaning issue with those rubber buttons (smoker). Don't get me started on smoking around radios. There's no reason he couldn't have handled that problem.Now, I don't expect all these guys to be able to repair a lot of the harder problems, surface mount components, alignment, etc., but come on. If you are not even willing to open the thing and look at a schematic, well ... you see where I'm going. If the radio doesn't light up most are done with it - it's back to the manufacturer or a local who can dive into it. Who knows how many rigs are in the land fill due to simple problems like that?Unfortunately, and it's just my opinion because I don't have objective data to back it up, but I'd have to guess that the majority of hams are not in the maker category. If I took 10 hams and asked them to tell me how to light up a red LED from a 13.8V PS without burning it up, how many do you think could answer it? If you introduced a young maker that knows how to use an arduino and various add-on boards and electronics, they'd blow away most hams electronics knowledge today. Not to say the hams couldn't learn it, but they wouldn't want to.Denny's or IHOP?

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 10:33:33 pm
content: In the US, the basic Technician Ham license test has 35 multiple choice questions of which 75% must be correct to pass. For electronics questions, knowing Ohms Law, basic concepts (voltage, current, resistance) and simple schematic symbols is sufficient. The morse code requirement was removed years ago. The bar is low, and most of the socializers never get the more advanced licenses.

author: Syntax_Error
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 12:46:06 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on June 25, 2017, 10:33:33 pmWhile everything you said is true, I want to comment that *many* of the older hams I have known, ones that have passed stricter license examinations including the Morse code portions, exhibit these same characteristics. It is not only the "younger generations" with their easier tests and lower barriers to entry.In my own experience, I "joined" a ham radio club specifically to meet what I thought would be fellow electronics enthusiasts. I had little inherent interest in radio, but studied, bought a few RF books and signed up for a test session. Walked out excited as could be and made sure to attend the next club meeting. Boy, was a sorely disappointed. It opened up with a club accounting status report, followed by information on local repeater session information, and...wait for it...cookies. As in baked goods. That's about it. I even stayed afterward to speak with some of the members. Extremely nice people, but not a drop of technical discussion, and everyone jumping to tell me which beginner radio to buy. I guess that's helpful?I promised to give it one more shot, and attend another meeting. It was exactly the same. I never went back.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 07:04:45 am
content: Actually the maker community is one of the most promising pastures to find new recruits to the hobby, I think.In the past, before the Internet was available to the general public, many hams were attracted to it mainly by the social factor, especially the "hey, you can speak to people all over the world!".Nevertheless there is a mix of people in the hobby. Here in Spain you can find both the social types, sporty hams mostly interested on contests and growing their DXCC contact list, etc. Also plenty of mountaineers doing SOTA, which is a great excuse to climb mountains. But there are also die hard experimenters and tinkerers, of course with varying degrees of knowledge.Don't be too frustrated by your club. If you miss tinkerer friendly sessions, well, try to set up one. Issue a talk or two covering mostly basic stuff but with a stronger technical side. For instance, a guy from here, recently retired, was in charge of antenna mainteinance for several airports. He gave a talk about "antenna analysis" in which he showed the basic usage of a VNA, including a demo with a couple of cheap ones. For many of the less technical types it was like magic, and they were really impressed.Regarding the maker communities, in the IoT camp there are plenty of people with no RF experience at all besides using a cell phone, and radio is one of the essential technologies. Actually I am planning a talk about LoRaWAN for a makers meeting here, together with a live demo, showing them the spectrum of the signal, using a pair of attenuators to show them how it can decode a weak signal, etc. I hope I wil have some people interested!

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 09:53:22 am
content: Asking ham clubs to become more <insert thing to become here> is like saying if basketball was more baseball friendly it would broaden the sport's appeal.Ham Radio is different for everyone.You can build a 10KW transmitter if you want; on any frequency . Test it on a dummy load and there is no need for a license.Just like you can build a car disregarding every safety and emission standard that will ever exist. You just need to have a private road long enough to enjoy the drive.As for having equipment available...you just need a neighbor with a better equipped lab than yours( And maybe a private road )

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 11:57:32 am
content: Thats why the hackerspace i initiated has DF0HSB. So far, 1 newly licensed ham in 2 years, more to come.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 12:17:32 pm
content: Quote from: babysitter on June 26, 2017, 11:57:32 amLOL.I'm a ham, so the following is a little of self-reflection.Ham radio is essentially about communications technology. Back in the day it was either a telephone or send a letter. The whole time I was growing up that was it. So hams could communicate ways the average person couldn't. It was fascinating.Now, the tables are turned. Hams (using technology normally associated with them) are in the rear view mirror. People could care less if you can talk through a repeater. You know one of the big things back in the day was the phone patch. Get on the repeater and make a call. Wow, who else could do that?Now - who cares?There is nothing about ham communications technology that the average person gives a rats a** about. Cell phones with real time video, cameras, email, texting, games, color LCDs - put that next to a ham handy talkie and ask a young person to grab the one they prefer. For an emergency, make sure you have your cell phone, not an HT.You want to talk HF? Ha! No one cares. I know people now who don't know what ham radio is. They don't know what the shortwave bands are. They don't care anymore. Hams keep getting new technicians because the test is so easy. So you got them and then what? They get bored with talking to the walking dead on the repeaters and move on to better things.Rant ended.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 04:20:23 pm
content: wait till the shit hits the fan,and things will be different - only radio owners will have private commsjust keep your kit hidden in that type of situation - the people who will pull the plug on the phones and net will be looking for radio's!

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 04:50:14 pm
content: many are looking at it the wrong way. maker clubs should become more Ham-friendly so RF electronics has more appeal.the ultimate goal is to make your own RF signal, & share it with others.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 06:48:02 pm
content: Quote from: stj on June 26, 2017, 04:20:23 pmYes, sure... I bet that hobby anglers, hunters and ninja fighters use the same line of argument...That thought may make you feel good, but it certainly won't attract any young people to ham radio.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 07:03:52 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on June 25, 2017, 04:14:09 pmIn my expereince, those hams who are (somewhat seriously) into building stuff do have access to spectrum analysers -- either through a local club, or they privately own second-hand commercial gear. So I don't think the problem for hams which you postulate is actually too prevalent, at least here in Germany.But more importantly: From a young maker's perspective, spectrum analysers and time nuttery are not exactly cool flavors of the electronics hobby. Let's face it, spectrum analysers and precision measurement as a hobby will mostly appeal to people over 50 (like you and me, I suppose). They are are neither "maker-friendly" nor will they "broaden the hobby's appeal".Many typical "maker" projects are less ambitious and quantitative, often somewhat improvised or using largely pre-designed platforms -- but they can be quite creative. Maybe the real challenge is whether us old farts can accept this flavor of projects as a new approach for entering the technical/electronics hobby? (Rather than consider it as just "messing around"?)

author: FlyingHacker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 07:14:18 pm
content: I started as an electronics hobbyist and then got my ham license because I also wanted to meet other electronics people.I find there to be a wide variety of hams, with many being appliance operators, but many interested in electronics. A larger than the general public percentage are EEs as well.It may be difficult to find the peop,e you locally, but you can certainly find them on the air. There are plenty of electronics people who want to engage in electronics related discussions, etc.There are also plenty of people who just memorized the answers... Extras who couldn't tell you the difference between volts and amps. So the license class may not indicate the knowledge, but you can easily tell who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't.Buy yourself an older radio and repair/tinker with it. Get some kits. Home brew some stuff from scratch... plenty to learn, plenty of experiences.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 07:21:59 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 26, 2017, 06:48:02 pmwell your not going to attract young people as long as it's a few $x000 rigs to talk to strangers half way around the world, and a bunch of old bastards telling each other about what prescriptions they are on or complaining about the traffic!!!

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 11:01:21 pm
content: I have a hunch that the cost of hardware may fall a lot in the next year or so, due to innovative designs that reduce the parts count and complexity substantially.It will be interesting to see what happens.

author: FlyingHacker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2017, 01:48:18 am
content: As soon as the other big players get into the all in one SDR gig like the IC-7300 then there will competition and the prices will drop. Even for the price the 7300 is one hell of a radio.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2017, 04:08:05 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 26, 2017, 12:17:32 pmOTOH, ham radio has had APRS which is decades ahead of the wireless IoT schemes like LoRa, et.al.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2017, 11:26:42 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on June 27, 2017, 04:08:05 amI'll mention that when I put the HT next to that Apple iPhone - that'll really pull 'em in.Sorry Richard I'm just really cynical about ham radio these days. And I'm a General class that's had a license since 1974!

author: KD0CAC John
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2017, 12:53:24 pm
content: I call this mono - thieistc - thinking ?There is only one way of thinking / doing .1st off , clubs are not creating how the society operate / or interests , they reflect it .Next is related to the 1st two lines that are not meant to piss anyone off , just my view of how & why people think - or the lack of ? ,I belong to a bunch of clubs & groups , and they focus on different things , some hardly operate , or if they do its about volunteering for communications for all kinds of stuff , then some are full of electrical types , engineers etc. and develop kits , some have been in QST .The part about reflecting what is going on in the tech world , a lot of what made kits happen [ again what seems to me ] is generally a more technical society and lots of surplus from WWII , the size of components made it easy to work on , now there is very little surplus , and the need for much more gear , optics etc. to work on , besides more & more components are ending up inside of chips .And lastly , a greater percentage of the populace are just not technical in school & training , few have tools of any kinda at home , and do not , and or can not work on almost anything they own .Do not get trapped in short sighted thinking , it takes all kinds of types to make the world turn , and there is always change happening , mostly is cycles .

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 04:53:50 pm
content: You might have unrealistic explanations for your local ham radio club just because there may not be that many technically oriented hams in your area. I can assure you that if you go to a Palo Alto Radio Association meeting (that's Palo Alto, California) you will be treated to some technical discussions. But that's about the highest density of EE nerds in the USA.Personally, I am an EE and got into radio in large part because it was a big glaring hole in my EE knowledge (wasn't a big part of my undergrad curriculum) and it was not part of my career at all. So I've been all-in on building radios, antennas, digital mode decoders, etc. I've also put a fair amount of effort into setting up a remote station, in large part so I can occasionally experiment while at work. I do interact with a "community", but it's mostly virtual, and that's fine.I'll say this, though: I suspect that many a radio club fan would not find *me* very interesting because at the end of the day, I just don't operate very much. The building and testing interests me a lot more than racking up contacts. I get on the radio occasionally and will log a few, but mostly, it's the getting there I enjoy!

author: piranha32
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 29, 2017, 05:51:50 am
content: Amateur radio is not just a a hobby, but big bag of sub-hobbies. There are people who are interested in building things. There are people who got their licenses because it will help them to serve society better (e.g. in US many fire fighters, police officers are licensed). There are also people who are interested in hunting exotic stations, or collect points in contests. In the end there are appliance operators who just want to discuss with their buddies about prostate problems and politics.What happens during club meeting depends mainly on what the members are interested in, and how active the directors are. Having technical talks during each meeting requires a lot of work. On the organizer's side (finding a speaker for each meeting is not an easy task), and on the speaker's side, to prepare a lecture. There are plenty of clubs whose meetings are limited to communicating administrative stuff and attract members with cookies, but there are also many clubs which go beyond that. As an example I can give my local club: during each meeting first there is a session with short lectures on various technical topics, interleaved with "CW forum" every other meeting, and there is the main part, with administrative part in the beginning, and an hour long lecture (topic depends on the speaker).The lectures are recorded, and the club posts them on their web site, for everybody to enjoy:http://viennawireless.net/wp/meetings/presentations/

author: mgberry
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 29, 2017, 06:29:32 pm
content: It is an interesting topic for sure. My experience was almost identical to syntax_error's, so much so we might have been at the same meetingIn fairness, all of the people that I have met a various club meetings have been incredibly nice. As others have said, it is a hobby that has many sub-components to it. I get the feeling the hobby has evolved a fair amount since the greatest generation.I have never really been active in the "talking on the radio" group but I would like to think Ill check that box later on in life. Right now, Im focused on the design side and Im finding there are people out there, but you have to dig harder than attending the local club meeting. In our market, there have been other clubs pop up to address the very idea of discussing deeper technical aspects.MattKE5BNZ

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2017, 09:11:53 pm
content: Nowadays its not at all hard to do this - it would be great if more clubs had a camera going to record presentations, and then posted them, along with copies of any handouts or files associated with the event in PDF format.Quote from: piranha32 on 2017-06-28, 23:51:50http://viennawireless.net/wp/meetings/presentations/

author: piranha32
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2017, 10:34:24 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on July 01, 2017, 09:11:53 pmPosting recordings is easy. In case of my club it started with one guy who recorded a presentations on a phone.Finding presenters is a whole different story.