Could this be the new 555 timer ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2011, 09:13:44 am
content: Just noticed these interesting devices:Greenpak programmable mixed signal arraysMicro FPGA with analogue functions, cheap ($0.24 100x), 1.8-5V supply (GreenPak2 version), schematic based devtool, and unlike all other current FPGAs, internals are fully documented.Only downside I can see is that it's OTP, presumably to save cost.These guys really should do a design contest

author: Balaur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2011, 09:28:50 am
content: The "one-time programmable" aspect is not that ideal for a hobbist setting.However, potentially useful for a production run.

author: deephaven
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2011, 11:42:55 am
content: Nice and cheap, $24 would buy you 100 goes at getting it right.I'm trying to see what it could do that I couldn't do with a small PIC. I was hoping there would be more analogue functionality to set it apart from a micro. It is very small so could have some uses when space is at a premium.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2011, 12:31:56 pm
content: I've only skimmed through the info, but some advantages over PIC could be parallel operation/faster response, lower cost (cheaper than 10F) and probably lower power draw when sitting waiting for something to happen, as it wouldn't need a clock.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 10:06:25 am
content: Pretty neat looking. I wish it were in a package more conducive to experimenting with, and/or reprogrammable.Are there similar products without the analog functionality? I've often thought I'd like a low-pin-count CPLD-like device with more internal structure (counters and registers, like this has) than the usual GAL devices...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 10:51:08 am
content: What started the microcontroller revolution was the first erasable chip (PIC16C84 IIRC), and they were available in DIP packages.These new devices have neither, but they do offer low cost, and they have ZIF demo board, so they at least have that right.Need to look in more detail...Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 10:55:55 am
content: Wow, the voice-over on the video is BAD!https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&list=PLB8A1CD5F1654D661&v=KT6-WtSdvyU#!Looks like a really nice software interface though.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 11:05:00 am
content: Ok, I'm curious, how are they making money at $0.23ea and $0.18ea for 100qty?Dave.

author: deephaven
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 11:24:54 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 14, 2011, 11:05:00 amPostage! I asked if they had a UK distributer and they haven't and their international shipping charge is $50

author: sub
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 11:32:26 am
content: The problem with this is that it has a bit of everything, but doesn't seem to do anything particularly well. You have some LUTs, but only three (!) flip-flops, so filters are almost certainly out. The ADC is pretty poor, and there's only PWM instead of a DAC.I suppose you could use it as a way to get a very small amount of configurable logic, but Microchip are doing that on-board, so that's something of a moot point.Quote from: EEVblog on October 14, 2011, 11:05:00 amWith the amount of logic that they have in there, I can't imagine that it would cost them that much to get a chip tested and packaged. You can get a PIC in the same package for 37c after all, and that has more than 100 bits of state.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 12:07:11 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 14, 2011, 11:05:00 amSmall die, high volume. The idea is instead of one big CPLD type device that inevitably contains a lot of unused silicon, you scatter them around the board where needed. This is obviously attractive for consumer products with 1 & 2 layer PCBs.I originally saw these in an article in one of the paper trade press - they claim they've already shipped over 100 million units. They also had several design wins before they'd done the GUI software, so looks like there is a market niche there.

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 03:10:13 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 13, 2011, 09:13:44 amYes you could make a 555 timer out of one but why would you want too?. Seriously, it looks a nice first step but the package is not the best for the hobbiest and IMO a little too limited in functionality. Having said that I well remember the early days of the 555 and people thinking up clever ways to use it, so some thinking out side the box may spark a new revolution. As an introduction to FPGA's it looks a nice tool and the free software is a big plus, certainly one to watch.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 07:33:35 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 14, 2011, 11:05:00 amThere is a couple of pages in this month's New Electronics on the part. They say they shipped 100 million parts in 18 months, pretty good volume for a part you never heard of.I think it an interesting product, great if you can use most of its functionality and cheap enough to use instead of a 555 or odd logic gate here and there. I think the biggest obstacle to widespread use is device programming. The attractiveness of being able to hold one part to do dozens of different jobs fades when you have to program each part in production. Are there pick and place machines that could program these parts on the fly?I would guess most of there product goes to customers buying pre-programmed parts by the reel.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 10:09:49 pm
content: It would be nice if they could implement some of this technology to add a FPGA section to regular micro controllers without raising the price much.There's lots of stuff for which having an on board FPGA would be quite handy.Or even, if you want to get crazy, it would be kinda interesting if someone came out with a micro which had smt pads built on top of the TQFP package for soldering on one of these FPGA chips.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 10:20:38 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on October 14, 2011, 07:33:35 pmYes - their primary model is they program (or mask for high volume) and send you programmed and tested parts. Would be interesting to see what the cost and MOQ is.

author: sub
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 10:51:42 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on October 14, 2011, 10:09:49 pmhttp://www.microchip.com/pagehandler/en-us/press-release/microchip-launches-8-bit-mcus-with-configurable-lo.htmlYou only get a very small amount, so this isn't going to outdo an FPGA, but if you just want some combinatorial logic, it would probably do the job. The cheapest is 50c for a single unit.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 12:07:07 am
content: Quote from: Rufus on October 14, 2011, 07:33:35 pmYes, every manufacturer offers this option if your volumes are high enough.Dave.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 08:34:05 am
content: I fail to see any reason why they couldn't release a DIP verson, even SOIC would make it much simpler. Unless the extra mataerial in the bigger package matters that much.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 08:52:43 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 14, 2011, 11:05:00 amAt qty 100, it's $0.24 and $0.29 for greenpak1 and greenpak2, respectively. What's nice is if you order any of the programming boards, 50 of the respective sample units are included. Too bad they're sold out of the greenpak2 board...8 week lead time to rub salt in the wound.Quote from: EEVblog on October 15, 2011, 12:07:07 amhttp://www.silego.com/uploads/Products/product_123/xSLG46200r108_09192011.pdfPage 9 of the pak2 datasheet suggests their target market was customers seeking a pre-programmed, high-volume solution from the beginning...I'd even wager that "high enough" isn't as high as we might be led to think.Quote from: Hypernova on October 15, 2011, 08:34:05 amProbably because DIP reeks of low-volume hobbyists...just sayin'.At the current price point, I can't see how they'd be able to sell any more than a single package.P.S. Max 1uA quiescent current with I/Os held static...hmm.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 08:56:17 am
content: Quote from: Hypernova on October 15, 2011, 08:34:05 amThey could, but it isn't worth their time. The development costs of any design that would benefit from a $0.20 chip instead of a $0.40 MCU are typically such taht a few $100 on proto PCBs with sockets are negligible.BTW the sockets areonly $18 for the 12 pin,and$12 for the 8-pinBTW here is theNew Electronics article

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 08:59:26 am
content: Quote from: Hypernova on October 15, 2011, 08:34:05 amBecause there isn't much money to be made. The total worldwide hobbyist market is less than what one or a few of their large customers buy. That is something hobbyists often forget. And for their large customers DIPs are apparently a thing of the past. So unless one of their large customers convinces them (by offering to buy DIPs in volume), they have no incentive to do a DIP.And if you look at the price, they need to sell in bulk to make any money. What do you think, how much money do they make when they sell them for 15ct? Don't forget, this isn't just manufacturing cost, but they need to finance everything from development, service and support, marketing, and whatnot from selling 15ct pieces.And one of their selling points is reduced board space. By adding a DIP they would weaken this sales argument.If you desperately want one in a hobbyist friendly package try to convince companies like sparkfun to do a breakout board with them. However, the cost of the total thing will be excessive compared to the cost of a single of these ICs.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 09:00:32 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor link=topic=5163.msg67827#msg67827And because it isn't an MCU, it's static when not doing anything, unlike an MCU, which as soon as you start the clock will be clocking a lot of internal nodes.Even when clocking, I'd guess there will be a lot fewer parts being clocked.In some applications I can see this thing giving power draw figures orders of magnitude lower than an MCU, and probably still giving faster response.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 10:05:09 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 15, 2011, 09:00:32 amAgreed with respect to power consumption, although I'm hesitant at this time about response since propagation delays haven't been published...albeit their datasheet is on v0.1 at the moment.Nevertheless, the simplicity of their fabric suggests sub-5ns delays. I wonder what technology node these guys are manufactured at.P.S. In light of the DIP comments, I had to give myself a quick reality check (see attached image of 2.5mm TDFN beside a standard D package 8SOIC from TI). 12 pins at 0.4mm pitch...it's a good thing they sell sockets on their website too.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 10:15:33 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on October 15, 2011, 10:05:09 amEven if it's 25ns, this is still at least 10x faster than any MCU, more if it has to wake from sleep first.I doubt these are made on a particularly small process, as for small dies, pad area tends to dominate size. The fact that they support 5V also suggests it isn't bleeding-edge tech.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 10:36:52 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 15, 2011, 10:15:33 amExactly my thought.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 11:28:46 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 15, 2011, 10:15:33 amThe just released greenpak2 does, the original greenpak doesn't. Could be that they figured that they can increase their potential market by supporting 5V, so people in need of revising an old, existing 5V design are tempted to use them.Until now I have two scary issues with them (no, not the package size):- The programming protocol does not seem to be documented. Therefore, it seems as if you depend on them for volume or even small series.- They argue the "non traditional marking" of the parts when you buy volume is a security feature. Good luck then in a few years when you need to repair something which contains a mystery greenpak.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 01:56:43 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on October 15, 2011, 11:28:46 amI don't see that as a big deal, as if you programmed yourself you'd also need to re-tape for pick & place. ISTR reading somewhere they promise fast turnround (days I think) for preprogrammed parts. Would be interesting to see what the price and MOQ is, but as they're targeting it as a low-cost part, I doubt cost will be high - only the MOQ may be an issue if they're geared up for high volume usersQuoteEven if you knew what part it was you wouldn't know how it was programmed, so not a big deal - even 'standard' parts in small packages can be hard to impossible to identify.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 03:23:54 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 15, 2011, 01:56:43 pmThat's why I asked if there are pick and place machines that could program these parts on the fly.Programmed parts are a complete pain which is why in system programming is so popular, but, for these little parts the in system programming overhead is too high. There is sod all to program in the parts so you would hope it is fast and the package would be compatible with the placing head holding it against some nails. Or maybe you would have a fancy feeder with an inline programming station. Maybe you could even stick needles through the bottom of the tape?These are not conventional devices and conventional methods don't get the best out of them.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 03:46:18 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on October 15, 2011, 11:28:46 amA while ago I was looking at dsPIC33Fs as replacements for the dsPIC30Fs at work, but the local Microchip FAE swore up and down that the 3V3 process chips die more easily, He told horror stories of projects stalling because the chip died everytime the board has to go through Hi-Pot tests.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 04:34:06 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on October 15, 2011, 03:23:54 pmPlus in-circuit programming OTP parts is a bit risky.It's pretty obvious that the preferred produciton route is factory programming - some of Silego's publicity actually refers to them as factory-programmable.If they are geared up for this, and their turnround times and costs are good, then that's the most sensible route.What it doesn't give you is the inventory flexibility of programming parts on demand, however they are so cheap that this is less of an issue than it wouldbe for more expensive parts.

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 05:23:17 pm
content: I was looking to get the devkit 2 to try. With this you can program the supplied batch of chips for prototyping. At $49.99 it's a good price. Now the killer $50 p&p to the UK!!!!. Erm I don't think so.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 08:37:43 pm
content: Quote from: FreeThinker on October 15, 2011, 05:23:17 pmWith the sort of volumes they're targetting, I don't think they are too interested in customers for whom the difference between $50 and $100 for a devkit is a deal-breaker..!BTW I think I saw somewhere that the devkit 2 is out of stock at the moment

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2011, 09:29:53 am
content: Anti-fuse OTP technology seems to be a hot topic this week.http://www.eetimes.com/design/memory-design/4229775/Argument-for-anti-fuse-non-volatile-memory-in-28nm-high-K-metal-gate

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2011, 09:39:05 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 15, 2011, 08:37:43 pmYes I know, but that was my point, at the moment they are not interested in small quantity's and so as a hobbyist they are not a viable product. Shame, as you have said they could become huge IF they could become as popular as the 555 or 741 et al, but that is not going to happen with huge delivery charges and no dealer outlets. As far as I can tell the $50 charge is their standard rate to the UK regardless of order size (within limits I assume)

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2011, 10:56:35 am
content: Quote from: FreeThinker on October 16, 2011, 09:39:05 amThe hobbyist market never made anything huge. Even the Arduino is a tiny blip in Atmel's sales.The target market of these is low-end MCUs and mopping up discretes, neither of which are high prorities for designs that aren't super cost- or size- sensitive.I do think it's cool that for a product aimed at high volume, the devkit is cheap, devtools free, parts available in small qtys and the internals documented without NDA nonsense.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2011, 07:46:16 am
content: Quote"Apple 1" was a hobbyist project, wasn't it? :-)The hobbyist "market" is really small, but those hobbyists end up in all sorts of odd places, and the "mind-share" (like "market-share" can be pretty important.)

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2011, 09:51:31 am
content: Quote from: westfw on October 17, 2011, 07:46:16 amAbsolutely agree, but this is a more long-term thing - any new product will be initially targetted at people using high volume now so they can pay the bills.BTW according to Wikipedia the Apple 1 sold 200 units.

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2011, 01:30:06 pm
content: According to the GreenPak web site they have shifted 100millon units in 18 months production (around 200,000 units/day). This is a significant figure. The 555 became as popular as it did because of a number of reasons, it was a superbly versatile chip, it was cheap, and it was widely available but most of all because it was so well supported by the end user. This included the hobby market as well as mass production and all helped in achieving critical mass, so to answer the original question 'Could this be the new 555' the answer has got to be 'No' unless they change their marketing strategy. In fact it is likely to die quite quickly if it concentrates it's efforts on it's present markets of rehashing mature products to remove the logic glue chip count. This will eventually dry up and not return, therefore they must find new markets to sell into and compete with modern designs or end up as a niche product, their present marketing is counter productive in this area

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2011, 07:36:13 pm
content: These look more interesting with a closer look.Apparently the actual interconnections are RAM based. After you program the OTP, the OTP is loaded into the RAM cells at powerup. BUT during development you can load the RAM directly, try it out via breakout pins on the programmer board, and try again if (when!) you find problems. That's not too bad a trade-off.Silego is selling relatively inexpensive DFN sockets (~$12.)Anyway, I ordered both development kits and a couple sockets. I decided they weren't much less approachable than most other FPGA like-devices, hobbyist-wise. An interesting experiment will be to see if I can put enough backup power on a DFN/DIP adapter to move a chip with RAM-based config off of the programmer and into (for example) a protoboard...

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2011, 01:04:21 am
content: Quote from: westfw on October 17, 2011, 07:36:13 pmGiven it can work down to 1.8V a 3V coin cell should do it,

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2011, 07:27:10 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 17, 2011, 09:51:31 amYup, especially if venture capitalists are dragging their feet, they just can not afford to spend the time, energy and money for hobbyist market any longer, time has changed, product cycle are so fast while those VCs are shouting at their back to show them the money fast. Though I believe they're fully aware of the potential, imo its just too difficult now.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2011, 05:59:08 pm
content: QuoteTimes are BETTER for the hobbyist than they've ever been before. They may not produce the friendliest packages and the simplest documentation, but at least you can BUY things. Most of the major distributors, and many manufacturers, will now sell you chips and development kits at reasonable prices, regardless of your "professional" status, or lack thereof. It wasn't that way a couple decades ago... (Not to mention internet forums and discussions. You used to have to put up with whatever the magazines published, and dealt with the rather "questionable" vendors that advertised surplus parts there-in.)

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2011, 06:25:09 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on October 18, 2011, 05:59:08 pm..not to mention having to get someone to send you paper datasheets....

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 06:29:09 pm
content: News Update from Silegohttp://www.silego.com/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=55&cntnt01returnid=71Impressive, but who was #1?

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 06:48:39 pm
content: Quote from: FreeThinker on October 22, 2011, 06:29:09 pmMaxLinear, Inc. Carlsbad CA