Keysight EDUX1002G Spec Issue - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2025, 05:33:30 am
content: Hello, guys!Let me tell you a story about how Keysight cares about its reputation. To be more precise, they don't care about their reputation! And so. I liked the 1000 series oscilloscope with an generator, namely the ability to analyze FRA. It suits me very well for audio practice. I familiarized myself with the technical documentation, made sure that the stated technical characteristics of FRA are suitable for me and bought the device EDUX1002G. For my tasks it is more than enough. But I was surprised to find out that the frequency range of the FRA does not correspond to the declared one. Here is an excerpt from the documentation: “The sweep frequency range is no longer limited to decade values - it can now be set to any frequency within the WaveGen's limits”. I contacted support with this problem, created a case 01756727 and started communication with Cristian Dumitrescu. Let me remind you that Keysight products are bought mainly by engineers, but Cristian Dumitrescu either didn't know about it or forgot about it. So he started his idiotic support as if he was helping a housewife. He tried in every possible way to tell me that I misunderstood what was written in the document, provided references to older documents and so on. But it's all bullshit. What he did in the end. He rewrote the original white paper, removed the awkward sentence and posted it under the old link. Bravo Keysight! That's criminal. You can take this to court and win a case. Attached are some documents. Why am I publishing all this, but to make people understand who they are dealing with. They will be deceived in every possible case. Well, and the main thing is what level of tech support must be, that would brazenly engage in forgery of documents ...Best regards, Andrejs.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 05:50:30 am
content: In publishing my post, I was hoping to get comments from Dave or Daniel Bogdanoff. But nothing. Dave doesn't benefit from the scandal, and Daniel doesn't even benefit from it. That's just the way it is. We are deceived and we are happy. There's corruption all around...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 06:02:59 am
content: Quote from: WS on April 03, 2025, 05:50:30 amWhat do you want to me to do, do a whole video ranting about your issue?If I've got this right:- Keysight advertised a feature as having X spec/capability- You tested it and found it didn't do it- You contacted support and they assumed you were dumb and didn't know anything and said you must be wrong- They checked further and found that, oops, you are right, and they can't fix it because of some limitation, so they have no option but to change the manual/spec to match reality.Surprisingly, that's not all that uncommon in industry.What they should have done of course is owned up to that, said thanks, and offered you a refund.Under Australian consumer law you could actually force them to refund you.Forgive me for not reading through all your correspondence to see who said what.You should have posted this in it's own thread and it might have gotten more traction, not under discussion about the community forum.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 06:09:05 am
content: Thank you, Dave for the review. But you forgot a very important point. They rewrote their own documentation and posted it under the old link. This is very bad and should be publicized, which is what I am trying to do. They could have just admitted their mistake and there would have been no questions asked. But no, they did what they did.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 06:11:43 am
content: Quote from: WS on March 28, 2025, 05:33:30 amTheir response seems pretty reasonable, they were polite, and acknowledged their error and explained technically why they would not be modifying the firmware; they would have to alter their algorithm to cater for the scenario where the frequency is as low as you wanted.It doesn't even seem a big deal; if it was that important to you, you could simply do this using SCPI and a small amount of code.On the other hand, you're pretty rude in what you write. It's just not professional.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 06:15:04 am
content: Dear, you're not paying attention! They didn't admit the mistake, that's the problem. They switched the document. And the fact that I write rudely is quite appropriate to the situationAnd please don't give me advice on how and what and what to measure with. I know it very well myself. The question is different, the behavior of Keysight.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 06:34:45 am
content: Quote from: WS on April 03, 2025, 06:15:04 amI don't know if you're a student, but clearly you need some level of hand-holding. You ought to remove that document you posted, since it contains your full name/address/phone number. Not a good idea to publish all that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 06:59:47 am
content: Quote from: WS on April 03, 2025, 06:09:05 amIsn't that how every manufacturers updates their manuals? Of course you want to keep the old link, the change goes in the change notification.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 08:20:18 am
content: Quote from: shabaz on April 03, 2025, 06:34:45 amBased on your references, you're a studentAgain, you don't need to tell me what to do.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 08:21:30 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 03, 2025, 06:59:47 amDave, you really don't see the problem? Has the world gone completely insane?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 08:37:57 am
content: it should be in a erratait can drive people crazy if you just alter numbers or procedures in a document without listing a version update or errata.How would you know that the documents you have are out dated if they just get secretly edited?it's supposed to be highly structured engineering / education, instead its 'eyes on the back of your head' 'street craft' (pulling a fast one)its supposed to be better then a forum post or webpage (edited by 1 tired editor), the 'keysight' letterhead is supposed to be a assurance of quality.Just changing the ver is pretty unprofessional too, if you don't say why.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 09:44:44 am
content: Still, I would very much like to see a comment on this situation from a Keysight spokesperson.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 09:58:33 am
content: and students are important, they are why you buy a whole rooms full of test equipment

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 11:49:21 am
content: Quote from: WS on April 03, 2025, 08:21:30 amAgain, I'm not going to reall your correspondence just to who said and did what.Keysight changed the manual to fix an error, what's the problem?YES, I know that error impacted you, and that's a different argument, but I don't understand why you are complaining about a manual being updated to fix an error?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 11:58:52 am
content: that its not errata'ed or version updatedfor a formal publication this is considered a cover up or being really damn sloppy. Imagine you had no idea what edition of a book you have. 1st edition can be worth bankFor a technical publication, just V2.0 is not enough, because then I have NO IDEA what got changed... it basically makes a investigation required.If I wrote documents referencing a bunch of specs (company literature), and then someone changed the spec sheet.. I gotta go through everything to figure out what they changed, unless they gave a errata.For a company that want's its tools to be used in test systems (i.e. a component of something greater doing something more complicated) its really bad.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 12:03:10 pm
content: Quote from: shabaz on April 03, 2025, 06:11:43 amI read it and concur.Calling them assholes isn't going to help your case.QuoteWhen they acknowledged the problem and thanked you for pointing it out, and then said they can't fix it to do what you want, why didn't you just politely ask for a refund?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 12:07:25 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on April 03, 2025, 11:58:52 amok, I see it, they should have added an errata to that firmware release note. I can understand them not changing the date and other details, because the firmware hasn't changed, and for a lot of people it's more important to keep the orignal release date.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 12:10:00 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 03, 2025, 11:49:21 amThis is how it should have been done:Keysight patched the instrument firmware as described in the documentation. Is that clearer? The user studies the capabilities of the instrument before buying it and only then buys it. That's exactly what I did. But, the instrument does not meet the stated capabilities. Keysight secretly rewrites the document removing the previously documented capability. Example. You buy a device with 200MHz bandwidth. In fact, it turns out to be 20MHz. You file a claim and they rewrite the document and that's it, the band is 20MHz. Will you be satisfied?

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 12:14:20 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 03, 2025, 12:07:25 pmThey made the stupidest possible correction, including the date. Dave, now, after all Keysight has done, it no longer matters how they rewrite the document. What matters is what they did to me, what their pattern of behavior is. I'm showing a precedent of behavior.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 12:14:59 pm
content: I know alot of people would be really really pissed because sometimes implementing a laboratory process is very time consuming and equipment may be acquired early while cursory details are worked out before documentation and process is formalized and by then its essentially "someone set us up the bomb" when they find out all the work is invalidated. You are talking potentially many months here for a company that is strict. There is documents on top of documents on top of training documents on top of training classes on top of minimum data before a formal review (could take a long while)and god forbid they do some testing and it gets delayed even further because they need to make a special test fixture or something. Everyone will be so busy for so long... this is like finding out the foundation pour went bad.i say honor isnotsatisfied because it can cause total derailing..and even in the basic wild west r&d setup, you probobly at least made some promises to a few people about being able to do something or another eventually that you can't keep, so keysight makes you look like a dead beat

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 12:16:23 pm
content: Quote from: WS on April 03, 2025, 12:10:00 pmWhat part of they said they couldn't technically do it don't you understand?They made a mistake, admitted it, thanked you for pointing it out, and then investigated whether or not it was possible and they found it wasn't possible.So they had no choice but to correct the fimrware document to match.I cannot believe you don't understand how they did everything right here?If it's not possible then it's not possible. You screaming about it and demanding that do it isn't going to change that fact.QuoteI'd be a bit bummed, but then I'd just poliely ask for my money back as it's not fit for purpose, and go something else.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 12:19:48 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on April 03, 2025, 12:14:59 pmI know, it's happened to me multiple times, I spent over a decade in production test engineering.Sometimes shit happens, the company can't fix the issue, and you just have to work around it.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 12:42:37 pm
content: Yes I noticed getting them to agree to buy the equipment is easy compared to getting them to eat the equipment later because it needs to be dressed with many different documents that all need to be reviewed and details no one sane considers relevant are considered to be pressing issues etcever see a fluke MFC that has 'for reference only' on it with a 20 year old verified 3.5 digit meter next to it?its like arguing about what type of leaf (which no one will think of eating) need to be put under a perfectly roasted turkey. dude ends up eating a old ham and cheese sandwich from the gas station because the turkey is placed on the wrong type of arugula cuttingsmadame will be eating a soup made of her servants shoe soles tonight because the wrong type of apple was used to garnish the boar

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 01:51:57 pm
content: Dave, I'll give you a brief recap of what happened. First there were silly excuses that I had misunderstood the document. When it became clear that I would not get away from them that way, they referred to technical limitations. In fact, the limitations are not hardware, but just no one to add a couple of lines of code to make the firmware correspond to the declared firmware. There is no need to make the lower frequency less than 1Hz, everyone understands that. There is no problem to realize it all, but apparently there is no one. Then my case closed. This is such a great service!And another thing. Look at the dates of documents. The original document is July 9, 2019, the new one is dated July 3, 2019. Wow!!!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 10:09:58 pm
content: Quote from: WS on April 03, 2025, 01:51:57 pmI have read the correspondence. As another poster said, they were nothing but polite with you, they admitted their mistake, thanked you for raising it, checked with engineering if it was possible to add, it wasn't, so then offered to help resolved the situation by asked when and where you bought it from. You could have just asked them for a refund, but instead you called them assholes, called them criminals, threatened a class action lawsuit, threatened reputational damage, and then had the nerve to ask them for a counteroffer.Then you refused to give them the purchase information they asked you for, and demanded that they change the code and issue new firmware even though they had already had engineering investigate it and said it wasn't possible.Sorry, this looks way worse for you than it does for Keysight.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 02:24:47 am
content: Dave, Keysight's politeness is a myth. The point of technical support is to get the customer off their back as soon as possible. In my case, that's what was done and the endeavor is obvious! And the fact that I call some things by their proper names is only to make the world a better place. Now point by point.1. They didn't want to talk to me at all at first because I don't have a contract. When I let them know that they were interested in nonsense and a contract, in this situation was not needed, other adventures began.2. They asked for the serial number of the unit, I provided it. In the next message they thanked me for providing them with the serial number. I reciprocated and thanked them for letting me know that they had received the unit number. This, as you can see, is idiocy!3. They started asking me for my personal information. Why?4. Where and when I bought this device should not bother them at all. The device is out of production and off the market. It's my personal business.5. If Keysight really wanted to help me and solve the issue in my favor, Cristian Dumitrescu would not have written me some nonsense with references to old documents that specify the lower limit of 20Hz. That's what I called idiotic because that's exactly what it looks like.6. After all this, he changes the document, puts a completely stupid date in it, posts it under the old link, refers to the technical limitations of the device and apologizes. Is this politeness or technical literacy? No, this is modern stupidity in full swing. Why do people need such technical support, which only makes things worse?7. As I suspected, Dave, you stood up for Keysight. It's understandable, money matters8. And once again, whatever form of communication I have with Keysight does not give them any right to do that with documents. It is criminal in any case!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 02:46:40 am
content: Quote from: WS on April 04, 2025, 02:24:47 amPerhaps they were willing to offer you a refund if you could prove you officially bought it.QuoteThey seem to have been until you called them all those names and threatened them.QuoteOh FFS, you wanted me to come in as an honest arbiter to help solve this, and I just spent my valuable time doing so for absolutely no benefit to me, and now you are pissed and start accusing me of being on their side for money? WTF is wrong with you?I read all your communications and concluded that you were being a dick here and it's no wonder they didn't want to deal with you any more. Bugger off, I'm done with you too. I'm sorry I wasted my time on this.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 02:52:54 am
content: You see Dave, how easily you gave up, how you yourself have hit rock bottomAnd you told me about some decent rules of communication. You just wrote me some nonsense. How can I buy a device officially if it is not manufactured and sold officially? All your insinuations that Keysight wanted to give me a refund and I didn't let them do it are nonsense!And let me remind you that it doesn't matter where I bought the device. I bought it based on the technical documentation that states the functions. These functions did not turn out to be in the device and I, in any case, suffered material and moral damage. Whose fault is that?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 03:44:41 am
content: Quote from: WS on April 04, 2025, 02:52:54 amLet me guess- you bought the device used, correct? It's how many years old? And you're being a dick to a manufacturer of a product long out of warranty? Keysight's customer service is not the best, but they don't owe you shit, especially not with your publicly admitted terrible behavior.Why is this nonsense even in this thread? It has nothing to do with the topic.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 03:50:27 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 04, 2025, 03:44:41 amMan, you are incredibly stupid and can't understand simple things.The world has gone completely crazy and dumb....

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 04:05:59 am
content: The picture is a clipping from two Keysight documents (old/new). Answer, what are the limitations of the FRA analysis range? Look carefully at the dates.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 04:59:27 am
content: Quote from: WS on April 04, 2025, 03:50:27 amYou are the customer no company wants.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 05:03:32 am
content: Quote from: oPossum on April 04, 2025, 04:59:27 amYou're right, companies need mild-mannered idiots and housewives to whom they can sell bullshit, cheat, and everyone will be happy!p.s. A modern Keysight can't forge a document without errors, what's there to talk about next....

author: HalFoster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 01:39:50 pm
content: I work for a company that has ATE as a primary focus and the general feeling from both associates here and in other related companies I have contact with is that Keysight and, to a lesser extent, Tektronix are becoming increasingly non relevant to all but very high end corporations. While we have a large amount of Keysight equipment that we use it is in the form of 3458As which are an HP product - not Keysight's - and Fluke 5720A calibrators. Thankfully, Fluke still knows how - and does - make a quality product. We use the Keysight and Tektronix equipment due to our primary work being governmental which specifies exactly which equipment is to be used. All of that being said, pretty much all of our equipment that is up to our discretion is Siglent or related since the quality, performance and price are leagues above that of former top-tier manufacturers. Relative to a lot of the big players we are very small potatoes indeed and the service now provided, or not provided, by Keysight/Tektronix reflects that.Personally I am very sad to see the decline of US equipment manufacturers as my outside-of-work hobby is repairing and using that very same vintage equipment. While I can point my finger and blame the suits that caused the situation, I really don't waste much time doing so as it will help absolutely nothing in the end. In spite of way too many f**ktards melting down some wonderful gear for gold or to make nixie clocks there is still piles of it to be had and restored - and I for one will continue to do so using it, purchasing Siglent when necessary, and not lose sleep over what once was but will never be again.Hal

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 01:57:17 pm
content: Quote from: WS on April 04, 2025, 03:50:27 amI initially thought maybe you were an exceptionally immature student buying an educational model 'scope, but you don't have that excuse.You bought an old model 'scope and whinged because the release notes from half a decade ago contained a minor error that's easily worked around to achieve a technical objective, and they didn't add an errata section to the document, which would not have helped you achieve your objective anyway.Especially toward the end, there's some disgusting behavior from you: You asked for compensation not for the functionality issue, but in exchange for your silence regarding the document update by the individual, and reputation damage that you were willing to inflict if you didn't get compensation.QuoteYou preserved it in black-and-white so everyone can see what kind of person you are, and everyone to come to their own decision upon. You keep mentioning housewives in a negative light, that speaks volumes about the type of person you are too.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 03:17:13 pm
content: Quote from: shabaz on April 04, 2025, 01:57:17 pmYou, unfortunately, never understood the problem. Not everyone does. And let me remind you that I did not demand or ask them specifically for compensation in the form of money. I only asked them to change a few lines of code, which is very easy for such a large company. Their refusal due to technical parameters of the equipment is just another fake. The whole technical support activity was just to get me away from them as soon as possible. This can be seen from their first answers. But if you can't understand it, I can't help you. Naturally, I laid out the situation, outlined their risks. They acted very stupidly, especially considering such a stupid substitution of documents. Secret document swapping is beyond...Look at the simpler side of things, at the heart of the matter. If everything with the device was as stated in the description, I would not have spent a minute of time on all this crap and would have been satisfied. So who is to blame in this situation, to whom can there be complaints?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 06:38:41 pm
content: Quote from: WS on April 04, 2025, 03:17:13 pmYou're a person of the lowest caliber intellectually and morally. You tried to blackmail a company over an error in a document. Every company makes errors, and eventually they fix them. That's what happened. You tried to capitalize on it, despite not actually being their customer. Deplorable and embarrassing.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 06:42:00 pm
content: Quote from: HalFoster on April 04, 2025, 01:39:50 pmI've found Keithley to have EXCEPTIONAL customer service. Unmatched IMO, but YMMV. Keysight was mediocre by comparison, but did help with the minor thing in the end, despite making the process tedious. I wouldn't ever clump those two together regarding quality of service.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 06:55:46 pm
content: Quote from: WS on April 04, 2025, 03:17:13 pmKeysight did the right thing and clarified the firmware release notes when you pointed out something that could be misleading. Nothing had changed from the original device specifications, in fact the firmware now allows finer control over the frequency for FRA. They went to the effort to research your enquiry and clearly explained that the scope does not have the acquisition memory needed to handle FRA at the lower frequencies you asked about, so they cannot "change a few lines of code" to achieve what you ask for. And you clearly have no idea of the effort involved in producing, testing, qualifying, documenting, and publishing a new firmware release. The only thing I see that they did slightly wrong is not to update the release notes with a new date and revision history, but in reality nothing new had changed as it was just a clarification to avoid confusion.In contrast, you were completely unprofessional in the way you communicated.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 07:34:42 pm
content: You men are really stupid! It's a horror, a feast of idiocy! With a Keysight instrument in my hands, I'm their customer. One way or another, they got paid for it, they made money. I'm tired of writing the same thing, you either don't read or don't understand. I caught Keysight by the hand when they changed the document in a completely stupid way. Look at the two documents I posted and answer which one is up to date? Correct, the one with a date of July 9, 2019! And what does that document say, what is the frequency range? They managed to make a mistake here too. If it wasn't for the forged documents, this story would never have appeared on the forum.If you steal from a store and get caught you will not escape a fine, all perfectly fair!And one more example. You bought a device with a declared frequency of 200MHz. The actual frequency is 20MHz. You file a claim. The company simply rewrote the document and stated 20MHz. Are you satisfied, everything is fine?And I'll give you another example. There are recall campaigns in the same automobile industry. The statute of limitations exceeds the warranty period, owner any current.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 07:56:44 pm
content: “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”― Mark Twain

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 07:57:59 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 04, 2025, 07:56:44 pmThat's right, just an example of it on yourself!Please answer, based on the documents provided, what is the limit on the frequency of FRA analysis? Simple question!

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 07:59:14 pm
content: Anger is causing cancer, you know that ?

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 08:01:33 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on April 04, 2025, 07:59:14 pmBeing stupid and submissive causes a pain in the ass that big companies have you in. But you're used to it, it makes you feel good!

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 08:04:03 pm
content: I am not going to be as nice as Keysight, so fuck off and stop wasting people's time on this forum.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 08:05:14 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on April 04, 2025, 08:04:03 pmYou speak for yourself, not for everyone! Who are you?

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 08:10:02 pm
content: Quote from: WS on April 04, 2025, 07:34:42 pmNo, that document is just a description of the enhancements in that firmware release. It does not override the published instrument specs.The date of the release notes document isn't that important. They have not released new firmware in five years, and have just made a clarification in wording.The datasheet for the scope lists the specifications of the instrument, and still lists a frequency range 20Hz to 20MHz for FRA.It is a low-end discontinued scope that apparently meets the published specs, and the company is apparently still providing support to "customers" even without any support contract.Get over yourself.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 08:13:22 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on April 04, 2025, 08:10:02 pmMan, you really have a reality problem, wake up! And learn to use technical documentation!The very first document specifies a range from 20Hz. This is correct, but until the second firmware version was released and the corresponding document was released, in which the lower frequency was 10Hz. Then another firmware was released and the frequency limit was removed.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 08:24:58 pm
content: Quote from: WS on April 04, 2025, 08:13:22 pmSo it exceeds the official product specification and yet you are making such a fuss. Customer service staff love people like you.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 08:28:30 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on April 04, 2025, 08:24:58 pmI am very surprised at the competence of the authors of this forum.In what place does it exceed? It should be between 0.1Hz and 20MHz. Are you sure you can read and understand what is written?

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 08:28:52 pm
content: What exactly anything after #44 has to do withQuote?CheersAlex

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 08:33:01 pm
content: Yeah, this has been a waste of time.Maybe a moderator can split this out into a separate topic.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 08:33:57 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Nikitin on April 04, 2025, 08:28:52 pmIt's magic!

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 08:44:03 pm
content: Quote from: WS on April 04, 2025, 08:33:57 pmit is not magicThis is rude, and bad internet etiquette (c)CheersAlex

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 08:49:55 pm
content: I didn't want to create my own thread so as not to inflame the issue. I wanted to hear the opinion of the community and, most importantly, the opinion of Keysight representative. That would have been enough. But I didn't expect that the local public can't even read a few lines in the documents and understand what they read. I am discouraged. I apologize for posting in this thread. However, the moderator could have warned about it right away.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 08:55:17 pm
content: Quote from: WS on April 04, 2025, 08:49:55 pmAnd yet... Dave, the owner of EEVblog, warned you in reply #47.Now please go and be discouraged somewhere else.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 08:57:09 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on April 04, 2025, 08:33:01 pmDone.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 09:20:52 pm
content: A little more about documentation so that there are no questions. The technical documentation, in which the technical characteristics of the device are stated, is the main document. The device must strictly comply with it. You won't claim that Keysight has another important document in which they don't guarantee the compliance of the declared characteristics with the real onesUsually, the actual performance exceeds the stated performance.How to read the documents on the 1002G. Initially there were two documents, a main document and an additional one with a list of firmware changes. If in the basic document the minimum FRA frequency is 20Hz, and in the second document for the new firmware is 10Hz, the information from the first document loses relevance. As a result, there is a third document with release dates between the first and the second. So this document should be removed from consideration, it is not relevant. As a result, in the latest firmware version 1.20 the FRA frequency is limited by the capabilities of the built-in generator. So you need to look in the base document in the generator characteristics section, where 0.1Hz-20MHz is specified. This is what was required to prove.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2025, 11:52:00 am
content: I thought I would post a summary of how and by what methods Keysight technical support was handled. I am trying to keep it short, just the gist.Let me remind you that the reason for contacting technical support is the failure to match the declared characteristics of FRA analysis with the real ones.1. Me - why can't the lower boundary frequency of the FRA be set below 10Hz, since the specifications limit it to the capabilities of the built-in oscillator (0.1Hz)?Keysight - you don't understand correctly what is written in the document.Me - no, I understand everything correctly!2. Keysight - you are looking at the wrong document, you need to look at the base document, it specifies a lower frequency of 20Hz.Me - This document refers to the very first version of the firmware. Already in the second version the frequency became 10Hz. You are mistaken and have a poor understanding of your own documents.3. Keysight - The technical specifications of your instrument do not allow you to make the frequency lower than 10Hz.I - it is not. And the real frequency that is really needed is 1Hz, you don't need less.I will attach two pictures showing two 1Hz oscillograms from the internal generator. You can clearly see the amplitude of the signals and cursor measurements can be made. There is no barrier to automating this process.You can draw your own conclusions about the competence of Keysight technical support.And in the beginning, Keysight didn't want to provide technical support because I don't have a contract. But they did, and thank you for that. But thanks for the fact itself

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2025, 12:43:38 pm
content: Very glad Keysight didn't waste any further time on that 5-year-old document, and concentrated on other customers that needed help!Your behaviour was tantamount to blackmail when you asked the guy for compensation in exchange for your silence regarding the document update:QuoteYou need some personal time to reflect on it and maybe sincerely apologize to the guy.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2025, 01:27:43 pm
content: Quote from: shabaz on April 06, 2025, 12:43:38 pmI'm sorry that the people to whom I've provided thorough information still can't get the point across. And as for blackmail. Certainly it can be taken as blackmail, but after what happened? It happened exactly after I'd been deceived several times. Can you count how many times that's happened? Is this normal behavior for a famous firm? Who should apologize to whom? Who should be fired from customer support?And do you yourself understand the meaning of the term "blackmail"? My point is, after everything that's happened, Keysight owes me anyway. Technical support did not start a dialog with me by saying: sorry, we have a mistake in our documents, we don't know how it could happen! But they started impudent fooling around in the hope that I would leave them alone. Where did they get this model of behavior? Do they practice it?

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2025, 02:08:24 pm
content: I'm sorry that those of us who have replied have also not got the point across.The firmware release notes were poorly worded. I think we all agree with that.The specifications for FRA frequency range in the product datasheet did not change. Ditto .You expected something based the release notes that was not intended, and got rather rude when told that was not supported. I think most of us also agree with that.The firmware release notes were updated, but with poor revision control. Again, ditto.You are complaining about the lack of support for something written in firmware release notes over five years old on a low-end (and now discontinued) product.You don't have a support contract with Keysight, nor would it still be under any warranty (standard 3 year warranty, that unit was shipped in late 2017).The company has moved on to support of their newer products.You seem to have trouble accepting any of this...I am not sure why I am still wasting my precious time replying. Probably ADHD related. Yes, an earlier firmware update may have extended the lower end of FRA frequency range, and that isn't updated in the datasheet either. I'd guess that isn't a guaranteed specification, just a bonus.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2025, 02:18:04 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on April 06, 2025, 02:08:24 pmDear, do you find it difficult to understand the meaning of the summary? Read again or several times my posts #57 #58. Maybe you'll finally get the point of what's going on.p.s. My abruptness in communication is aimed at getting my interlocutor to start using his head for its intended purpose and stop writing me nonsense.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2025, 02:50:48 pm
content: I have no problem with understanding, and have spent far too much time reading over what you wrote.I agree that they did not make that very clear in the release notes, and I may have assumed much the same as you had I read it separately from this discussion and cared enough to look into it. When you asked about it many years later, I think they explained it pretty clearly after doing some internal research. The lower end of frequency for FRA was not changed to 0.1Hz in the firmware update, just the selectable resolution changed from 10Hz to 1Hz steps.Maybe they had originally hoped to cover the whole frequency, but it turned out impractical. Or maybe there was some miscommunication between engineering and the tech writers. Those are just possible explanations for the wording. The support person presumably did not write the original release note, and could only go on what they were informed by engineering in their replies to you. No one else apparently ever opened a similar support case. They also gave what I think is a reasonable explanation of why they could not extend the feature below 10Hz.As others pointed out, your limit of recourse would likely be a refund of purchase price, but that might vary depending on laws where you live. The elapsed time likely being a limiting factor. If taken to court, I suspect it would be thrown out as the device still meets (or improved on) the datasheet specifications.Had you not been so rude, and had you explained clearly why it was so important to you as a student/hobbyist/whatever, then they might have offered you a better deal than a refund. Probably not but it happens occasionally, as large corporations often have a budget for that.I will not write any more in reply - nonsense or otherwise as you see it.

author: WS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2025, 04:17:23 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on April 06, 2025, 02:50:48 pmAnd yet you have a comprehension problem. You don't see the problem at all.And tech support could have just apologized for the error in their first message and that's it. But no, they made a fool of me.