EEVblog 1683 - Sun-Ways Solar Freakin RAILways - Part 2 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2025, 12:58:32 pm
content: Sun-Ways actually went ahead and installed Solar Freakin' RAILways in the Swiss village of Buttes at the cost of US$700,000 !Part 1:References:https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/climate-change/switzerland-turns-train-tracks-into-solar-power-plants/89227914https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/science/swiss-solar-railway-project-gets-back-on-track/87707181https://www.youtube.com/@sun-wayshttps://www.pv-magazine.com/2024/04/09/italian-startup-testing-pv-sleepers-on-railway-line/https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php

author: squadchannel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2025, 01:14:55 pm
content: unlisted?

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2025, 05:27:34 pm
content: No way those panels will ever stay clean the way they're laid out completely flat like that. Especially considering there is a ledge around the panel that will slow the flow of water and dust.And in the video you can already see water pooling on the panel. There will be massive amounts of algae and moss growing there within a year.Nevertheless i look forward to how bad these turn out to be.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2025, 06:13:50 pm
content: The fun part of this all is that this stupid funding situation is even worse for less tangible projects such as "AI" and "quantum" stuff... since it's even easier to fool investors and politicians, but still using hype tech.So for these, we're not talking about hundreds of thousands or millions, but literally billions.The times must be fantastic for those with a knack for scamming others, it's never been easier.

author: Barny
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2025, 08:26:12 pm
content: Some details to the whole dirt things on the tracks:This panels will get a buttload of crap on them.Litteral crap and toilet paper.Older trains & rail cars, built before the time of waste water tanks in trains, disposed everything on the tracks.They are still in use on less frequented parts from time to time.And then there is the thing with the steel-dust from breakes, wheels and the track itselfe.Everything in a 10m radius arround the track will get covered with an thin layer of rust within few months.And this rust-dust gets fused with every surface it lands on.(At longer distances, there will get rust dust too. But not that extreme.)Every railway worker will know what I'm talking about.

author: kekkers
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 05, 2025, 10:18:59 pm
content: Why does Dave have to be this "disingenuous" in these "debunking" videos?He says "there is no way the train is going 79km/h". Like why would it matter? It's almost 1km from the station, so yeah it most definitely will be going 70km/h a simple acceleration calc for trains will show this. Is the wankery so necessary you have to challenge this?Then he also claims the solar panels on the railway building in the next bigger village are "just windows". No, the windows are the bigger squares not the obvious solar panels you can also see on other buildings nearby. Just use a higher resolution map likehttps://search.ch/map/Buttes?pos=535137,195330&zoom=19He also is jerking off to the very reasonable concerns the Federal Office of Transportation has. Like why would that be wankery? Seriously, just a very low quality video.Edit: Forgot, he also made fun of the 2 guys using the giant "wrench" instead of the automated system from the video. like no shit Sherlock, obviously you're not going to use a fully automated system for a prototype.And because this is the internet imma have to spell it out explicitly. No, I'm not championing solar railways.

author: kekkers
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 05, 2025, 10:21:18 pm
content: Quote from: Barny on May 05, 2025, 08:26:12 pmNo they are not still in use anymore in Switzerland, welcome to the 21st century.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2025, 11:02:02 pm
content: Disclaimer: as with previous sunrailways, I’ll say I don’t think the idea is on the same level of absurdity as solar roadways, sidewalks, or cycling roads. It’s poor engineering and overall inferior to alternatives. But it does fall into the “too many engineering problems” bucket, and not the “utter nonsense” one.First a note for all you coming coming from countries, where word “institute” is either legally protected or, through historical development,(1)associated with academia and professional organisations. “Institute” is nothing more than a company’s proper name. Remember this each time you see yet another expert from “Something Institute of Something” making comments.Dave is doing some handwaving with “look at all those roofs” in both videos. Let me supplement this with simple maths intuition, something at elementary school level. What aspect ratio gives us maximum area? 3… 2… 1… A SQUARE. Not a long, almost 0-thickness line.Drive that into a head of the next person, who tries to argue for solar any-ways.If you want to know, what’s behind such endeavours, the last video contains a hint. They don’t produce products. They produce intellectual property. Aside from, of course, management’s wages.(1)States with formerly centrally planned economy.

author: Helio_Centra
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2025, 02:42:04 am
content: Switzerland gets lots of snow. I suppose after each snow fall they will need to wait for a train to come over and use the cylindrical brush to clear the panels.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2025, 07:20:21 am
content: I wish government would stop taking the money of people to spend it on bullshit. I spend more money every month on the government than my house and my car. Stop wasting it.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2025, 04:01:31 pm
content: Quote from: Barny on May 05, 2025, 08:26:12 pmWhen iron dust lands of a surface and rusts it becomes absolutely fused with it. I've had the pleasure of experiencing this and the adhesion of the resulting rust is impressive.

author: Per Hansson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2025, 06:41:03 pm
content: What about my idea: "solar freakin'beside the roadways?"It has some advantages: the panels can be easily serviced.If they catch fire your building will not burn down.It does not cost any money to repave the road or railway nor cause any downtime to the road or railway.Now the disadvantage:You can't get grant money from the government because it is actually a viable ideaHere are some examples of how this perhaps could be implemented:

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2025, 07:10:49 pm
content: Quote from: Per Hansson on May 06, 2025, 06:41:03 pmOh yeah i see those all the time when driving between cities. Ours have sun tracking also, which is pretty cool.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2025, 09:32:50 pm
content: Quote from: kekkers on May 05, 2025, 10:18:59 pmIf you are going to complain about small things then at least get your details right. It's 500m to the (very dangerous, no signal/gate) road crossing.I simply didn't bother to measure it, it didn't look that far. Turns out that yeah, it could get to 70kmh in that distance, but there are going to be approash signals and rules, trains very often slow down a 1km or two before before a dead end station like this, not to mention 500m from a deadly road crossing.QuoteBecuase they have gone off on a typical bureaucratic process without stopping to first think if the whole idea is stupid.You know, that's the joke, they started wanking off over theprocessof evaluating this whole thing over years, rather than just going "nope, this is obviously dumb"Go watch the TV series Uptopia.

author: kekkers
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 07, 2025, 07:59:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 06, 2025, 09:32:50 pmWhat detail did I get wrong? My typo of 79 instead of 70? I wrote 1km from the station to the installation. Here, it's very obviously not wrong what I wrote:or are you grilling me for rounding 945m to 1km?Same for the negative acceleration aka breaking, obviously it doesn't get to a full stop before the crossing as the train has right of way and the crossing will signal to the cars to stop way before the train gets near. Like that's very basic stuff, why are you even going after this?But good to see that you continue the disingenuity. What makes it a deadly crossing? How many people have died there? Oh wait, it's the disingenuously being hyperbolic to save face when you're very obviously wrong move.Quote from: EEVblog on May 06, 2025, 09:32:50 pmExcept they have thought whether the idea is stupid, that's exactly why they have concerns and want the 3 year testing period so there is a lot of opportunity to show just how stupid the idea is instead of a short run of 6 months in ideal conditions.They initially blocked the project because it's dumb, see here:https://www.watson.ch/schweiz/energie/447603253-solarpanels-auf-den-gleisen-darum-stellt-sich-der-bund-dagegen?=I didn't look too hard because why would I, but there seems to be no government money involved. This is a private company with private investors, so your "dumbarse gubment wastin moneyz" is again just disingenuous drivel.--------------That's my entire point btw.You throw away your own brain because you see an easy target to beat down on and and the process of doing that you do all this stupid stuff yourself because you threw away your brain."hurr durr this idea is stupid so everything even remotely connected to it must be stupid too durr durr"In essence, it's a low quality shit video that targets the lower emotions. Kinda like a rainbow press article, just pathetic.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2025, 08:11:07 am
content: Quote from: kekkers on May 07, 2025, 07:59:36 amChill out dude.QuoteIt's literally in the article:"Sun-Ways got the support from a dozen partner companiesandthe Swiss Agency for Innovation Promotion (Innosuisse). "QuotePlease share the link to your video.Or do you only do low quality shit posts that target the lower emotions?

author: kekkers
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 07, 2025, 09:04:13 am
content: I'm chill. Are you?You want me to make my post into a video consisting of me filming myself making wanking motions while making fun of the basic stuff you got wrong?

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2025, 09:08:51 am
content: Quote"i can't be asked to look into this because i am obviously so correct that there's no need for me to waste my intelligence debunking some disingenuous drivel"Had you looked into it you would have found that you are wrong, and you accusing Dave of being disingenuous was just you being disingenuous yourself.

author: kekkers
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 07, 2025, 09:39:35 am
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on May 07, 2025, 09:08:51 amSee, support is not just giving money, it could also be something like this:https://innosuisse.venturelab.ch/index.cfm?page=139110&CredentialID=C90B081005F98D82So is innosuisse giving the Sun-Ways guy (Joseph Scurderi) an ENTERPRENEUR TRAINING "dumbarse gubment wastin taxpayr muneyz"? This is what I mean by "didn't look into it too deeply" as it's a giant pain in the arse to navigate the innosuisse data to find who exactly got what amount of money.Innosuisse is also not the transport agency which Dave was wanking about. An agency for innovation most definitely should have a much lower barrier for grants when it comes to "stupid shit" than the transport agency, because sometimes the "stupid shit" actually works out.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2025, 09:50:47 am
content: Quote from: Per Hansson on May 06, 2025, 06:41:03 pmHah!In Germany, using land next to motorways and railroads to build solar parks is receiving extra public funding, so you will see quite a few of those. And it does make sense - you can't use the land next to a motorway for agricultural stuff, and due to noise emission it is not possible to build housing, so it's really only a green or barren area, with no further use.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2025, 10:04:48 am
content: Quote from: kekkers on May 07, 2025, 09:04:13 amMe:You:QuoteNo, I want you to make a debunking video on the same subject so you can show me how it's done, you seem like an expert.

author: kekkers
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 07, 2025, 10:53:37 am
content: Why are you crying just because I called your video shit? Can't handle the criticism wittle baby?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2025, 11:06:52 am
content: Quote from: kekkers on May 07, 2025, 10:53:37 am

author: kekkers
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 07, 2025, 11:12:47 am
content: A photo from your current therapy session? kekw

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2025, 11:25:38 am
content: A local sent me this from behind a paywall, it is the solar installations in Butte.They even have a huge install near the carparkAnd I found another article that said the panels are 385Whttps://www.startupticker.ch/en/news/sun-ways-opens-world-s-first-rail-ready-track-mounted-solar-power-plant

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2025, 12:14:43 pm
content: Quote from: kekkers on May 07, 2025, 10:53:37 amIt seems to me that you're projecting here.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2025, 12:15:14 pm
content: Dave, I thought you had learned about this kind of interaction. Someone will drag you down to their level - and then beat you with experience.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2025, 01:11:41 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on May 07, 2025, 12:15:14 pmI'm happy as a pig in shit.

author: kekkers
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 07, 2025, 01:48:03 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 07, 2025, 11:25:38 amAre you sure those aren't just roof windows?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2025, 12:06:38 am
content: Quote from: Per Hansson on May 06, 2025, 06:41:03 pmYeah, but you have to erect a structure to hold the panels and doing maintenance next to a railway line still requires the train service stop running anway. By putting the panels between the rails, you already have mounting points and avoid building costs, permitting issues, etc. All you need is a simple frame which latches onto the sleepers. Actually, the principle is very similar to putting solar panels on a roof with minimal changes to the roof in order to keep the costs low.A prototype / test system is always going to be expensive but electronics engineers should understand that. Building a prototype can easely cost 100 times more compared to the mass produced version. But you still need the prototype stage for verification.All in all, lets see how this field test goes. The article doesn't claim anything unrealistic (like melting snow), the amount of electricity to be generated seems to be a realistic value and they are open about the known unknowns (like how dirt may affect the performance and what to do about it). The goal of the field test is obviously to learn more about the known unknowns, verify calculations and possibly learn what the designers have missed.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2025, 01:07:25 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 08, 2025, 12:06:38 amWhy, when it'sguaranteedthat this solution will bealwaysway more unreliable and expensive than any other normal solar solution. ALWAYS.So anyone with any genuine sense of environmental and/or financial cost/benefit would only consider this insanity unless other other rooftop and carparks etc are filled.Otherwise you are just poorly spending your money and the embodied energy to create them,guaranteed.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2025, 01:18:03 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 08, 2025, 01:07:25 pmThat is just your opinion. The people who thought of putting panels between tracks think otherwise, put their money where their mouth is and at least try something new.The key thing you are missing here is that putting the panels between the track offers a very consistent way of mounting the panels making automated installation a possibility. Putting solar panels on roofs and carparks will always need (expensive) manual labour due to small scale and inconsistency of the environment.Take this article for example:https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/solar/utility-scale/meet-maximo-the-ai-enabled-solar-installation-robot/Using a robot speeds up installing panels and cuts the installation costs by half. But you can only use a robot effectively when operated in a consistent environment.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2025, 02:00:56 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 08, 2025, 01:18:03 pmIt's the gullibility of people like you they rely on to do these grifts.QuoteI'm not missing that. You do it once and they last 20 years, all but guaranteed, not so on tracks. There is practially zero chance they will last 20 years on tracks.AND you have the added complexity of wiring them under the tracks etc, it's not just a matter of laying them with your magical machine.AND you have the take them back up and put them back for track maintenance. Even if you could somehow get them to last 20 years, that's ripping them up and relaying them 20-40 times over 20 years, that massively drawfs any imagined margin you might have gotten from the supposed extra cost for the roof install.AND you get the chepaest possible panels because of the standardised manufacture of unthinkable volumes, and existing standard mounting hardware and procedures and practices etc.QuoteYes, great, in an enviroment that isn't totally inhospitable to solar panels like bloody railway tracks!Link from my first video on this about the crap these panels will be subjected to in addition to vibration and other mechncial stresses. It's the dumbest idea ever.https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004896971401451X?via%3Dihub

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2025, 02:04:01 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 08, 2025, 01:18:03 pmSo you install it, de-install it for maintenance, install it again, and then it's already more expensive than having it next to it.And then the main issue, it's not an effective usage of taxpayers money. You can incentivize green energy generation for free. At zero cost. All is needed is deleting the VAT and other taxation on it, and people will install more.Or even better give money to people to install solar.This project spent ~600.000 CHF on 48 panels in non-ideal conditions. For the same amount, you could've given 300 installations 2000 CHF as incentive, and they would've installed ~4500 panels in ideal conditions. Hundred times better.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2025, 12:01:52 am
content: Buttes is 47°N so optimal tilt of the panels is 39 degrees. Might be around 15-20% less output.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2025, 01:40:26 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 08, 2025, 01:18:03 pmNot their money. Those are public money and investors’ money.Quote from: nctnico on May 08, 2025, 01:18:03 pmIt’s not new. This is 20 years old. Popping up, sucking in money, failing miserably, and disappearing. Rinse, repeat.