Fluke 87-4 to 89-4 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 05:01:49 pm
content: Hi!I know that's an old meter, but i've found it used and i'm restoring it (chassis broken, and zebra stripes gone, changed the supercap that i've read that can leak, but no other major things except a slow reading, that seem quite normal with fw 1.01 that i have). It's good for an hobbyist like me, and for sure better than my Protek 506...Following a thread over here i've found that there is a way to convert the 187 to 189, and as the 187 is a lot similar to the 87-iv, i've tought that the same was possible also on this unit. So i've tried to move the selector above the limit and actually the screen goes to the memory view screen. But pressing the combination to store the values it not work.The memory is already present, and no components are missing, but there must be a difference on the board to enable the recording functions. I've searched in the web for high res pictures of the 89-iv board but i've not found anything.I attach some pictures of the pcb and the memory view screen.Someone, please, have some high res photos of the 89-iv? Thanks!

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 06:29:03 pm
content: Hi,QuoteIf I remember it right, we got at work under dozens of 87-V ONE 89-IV there..I´ll see it on monday, if it´s so, I´ll take pics from it.

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2020, 06:38:54 pm
content: Really thanks! As the memory is already here (unlike in the 187) it's a waste to not use

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 12:06:58 am
content: Other than possible limitations due to firmware itself or config that could be set in the 93Cxx EEPROM the first thing I'd do is make sure the SRAM hasn't latched-up while replacing the backup EDLC (to quote myself):For those experiencing troubles after replacement of the backup capacitor:Removing batteries, restoring factory defaults was no help, the solution was to discharge the new EDLC. (I did this using another DMM on mA range.)After this the save feature was restored but displayed "FULL" after storing only 3 values, this was solved by doing a "CLEAR MEM"

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 01:47:49 am
content: Hi shakalnokturn!Thanks to your post about the conversion!If the boards are the same between 87 iv and 89 iv (as i suspect, as the 87 have already the ram soldered) there will be for sure a difference somewere else, and in an eeprom seem the first place to check (if the values in there can be interpreted in some way).You had to do something to enable the logging fuction buttons? Or after soldering ram, diode and cap all started working?Yes, i've already done the full reset with supercap discharhed as described, but the logging buttons are still disabled..

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 02:37:54 am
content: On my 187 it was straight-forward enough, after populating the missing components logging was usable, it was only after replacing the backup cap. that I ran into a few problems.If I remember well I did the hard reset batteries removed and discharging right at the decoupling cap. near the SRAM to avoid the decoupling cap keeping power to RAM if there's a diode between there and backup cap.I used a DMM on μA/ma to discharge taking advantage of the shunt resistance to be a little easier on the capacitor and to read when discharge current was very close to zero.On your photos there is one empty SMD footprint RHS of the keypad near the black tantalum, it could be worth looking what that links to just in case.

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 08:07:48 am
content: At the first sight i've not noticed the unpopulated smdand it's under one of the main ic, so it can be a good spot. I need to wait some photos of an 89 to see the differences.Thanks!

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 06:07:26 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on March 28, 2020, 06:29:03 pmWe have...If you want special areas magnified, I can take pics with my andonstar microscope…Martin

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 06:07:58 pm
content: Another one...

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 08:30:19 pm
content: Really thanks!!Now i open them on the pc and check with my 87. At first sight they seem identical, but my bad also your is missing the resistor spotted by shakalnokturn...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 08:56:56 pm
content: As I wrote, when you need further details, let me know...

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 11:32:32 pm
content: Whoa, at my eyes they seem identical. Only spotted different part number on the ir transceiver, and a resistor of different colour in the attached image. Did you please can read the value of that resistor?And i miss the components under the lcd, but maybe it's a bit "risky" to remove it. Mine have developed a fault with the zebra stripes, the original seem that leaks somethig on the lcd and on the board that don't let do a good contact. I've tried to replace them with some common rubber zebra stripes only to find that the new one not works. I've discovered that the new zebra stripes are in 60shore hardness, while the original are 55 shore. Never tought that the zebra stripes had different hardness rating

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 01:57:30 am
content: Clean the LCD and PCB contacts with IPA.Try gently rubbing both used edges of the original zebra on a dry coton textile (I usually use my denim jean knee) wipe off any remaining fluff.

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 06:06:51 am
content: Already done and it's working. But i've read that after sone time the procedure must be repeated as they continue to degrade...

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 02:35:14 pm
content: I was hoping for some other details... my board has code "fluke89-4-3001 rev j", so for sure the pcb is the same as the 89... hope in some component like in the 187...

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 02:44:12 pm
content: Quote from: masterx81 on March 30, 2020, 11:32:32 pmFor this one, the smd code on both seem 2800, so change only the color. With the photo provided wasn't able to find other differences

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 06:35:41 pm
content: I'd give the hard reset another try right at the SRAM if you discharged at the backup cap on previous attempt.

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 10:01:09 pm
content: I think that will not help another reset, as i've not changed anything on the board, so the meter never know that is an 89. By now i've only moved the stop on the selection knob.

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 02:33:07 am
content: I've dragged my 187/9 out of its box it isn't the DMM I use the most.It has been lying months without batteries, to avoid forgetting and letting them leak.After installing a new set the logging function seems to be inactive. Any logged value does not record, clearing log memory has no effect.All that is displayed on "log view" is: lightening icon LOG icon, "-----" and "MEM 000".Same as yours except the LOG icon.So far I have attempted multiple discharge resets, none have been successful.Sometimes there is nonsense in the log.The meter seems to detect problems accessing the RAM, when it does it will activate all LCD, then restart with logging disabled giving the screen you see in "log view" position.I'm confident all the logging function depends on is being able to access RAM correctly.

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 08:16:04 am
content: But if the ram is already present when assembled from factory (like in the 87 case) there must be something to lock or unlock the functions. Or in eeprom or in hardware. I think that the mcu are the same for both models (asic or custom made, i not think that worth the expense of mading 2 custom sets of chips)

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 12:53:44 am
content: My 187/9 was using a 5V RAM instead of the 3V part it needs so I was actually lucky that it worked at all.I've ordered the right part number,whenever that will arrive...As the multimeter seems to be able to detect defective RAM and restart disableing the log functions when it does find a problem, once the correct RAM gets to me I'll try dumping the 93C86 to see if that registers any difference with log functions active / inactive.Have you tried looking in calibration menu? (Backing-up calibration first.)

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 07:09:44 am
content: Calibration menu is accessed simply shorting the pad under the board? For backup calibration i need to backup the eeprom content?Thanks for the help...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 08:39:41 am
content: You know this here ?Fluke 87/89 IV Service Manual

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 08:53:07 am
content: Missed that! I see:QuoteThe model number is interesting!But i not see how backup calibration data. I suppose backibg up thw whole eeprom content

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 10:41:09 am
content: The software is interesting and how to get it.

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 10:47:28 am
content: YeahIn any case i try to dump the eeprom content, maybe there is a simple "87" and "89", but with more probability there is one not understandable bit that the code read to enable the functions...Maybe will be difficult to spot it also with a dump of the 89 and compairing them

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 03:54:00 pm
content: I´ve just bought a flasher ( for my UT210E), when it arrives I can try to read out the eeprom from our 89 IV.

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 04:45:20 pm
content: Eeprom dumped with an old willem. The s/n is in ascii. No 87 in ascii and neither some 0x57 around. There are only 0x004-0x07c and 0x404-0x47c locations compiled. The rest is 0xff.The sn is in the first group (0x6c-0x73), so i suspect that the first group are "operative data" (and hope to spot here the model) and the second group are calibration data.Hope that yours is also an fw 1.01 as i have fear that with different fw there are also different memory locations..

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 09:29:41 am
content: This morning got working also the irda interface. With software 676152 would be easy enough to convert it, but as from a web search seem not an easy to find item, i hope to spot the difference in eeprom content.

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 01:04:51 pm
content: Now you have dumped your EEPROM you could voluntarily mess-up your calibration to rule out a certain number of memory locations.Another thing that could be worth trying is "FF" ing the EPROM to see if the firmware writes default data to any locations.Does the DMM identify itself to Fluke View Forms?If it does you could sniff the EEPROM to see the adresses read for model identification.

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 01:32:11 pm
content: There are nearly 200bytes of data, would take a lot to try all memory locations what do, as i need to desolder/resolder it every time (i not feel confident programming the memoty in circuit).The erase and test can be a good try. Now i've put it back together, next time that i dismantle it i'll try.For sniffing the eeprom data, i suspect that the model number is read only at the start, with a lot of calibration things, and would be hard to find what's interesting.In any case all this are more difficult tries than compare the eeprom content with an 89...

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 05:10:34 pm
content: I meant sniffing the bus, not on DMM start, but when establishing a connection with the FlukeView PC software, it may be worth the try if (I do not know, I've never used it...) the DMM tells the software it's model number.The problem you'll have when comparing with a 89 dump is that you'll very likely have different data in all the addresses used for calibration making the task a little more difficult to spot the model address...

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 09:01:38 pm
content: Uhm, the model number is sent for sure, as the software know what the multimeter can do and what not.For sire there is the risk that a lot of data is different for the 2 dumps, but i've seen that eeprom content is dividednin 2 groups, and in one of them there is the s/n. So i hope that the calibration data is all in the other group.Need to check before saying somethnig

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 10:03:00 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on April 05, 2020, 03:54:00 pmLOL, take the 89-IV to home ( easter holidays), the flasher seems to be not in sight...If someone wants another pics from it, I got it here until next monday.

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 11:57:20 pm
content: Hi!I not think that more photos are needed, seem clear that unlike the 187, the hardware of the 87 is the same as the 89.It's not an urgent thingThanks for your efforts!

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2020, 07:58:20 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on April 10, 2020, 10:03:00 pmTODAY, it has arrived here...LOLWill take the 89IV forthcoming weekend at home and try to read the eeprom out.

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2020, 09:41:48 pm
content: I not know in usa, but here in italy the shipments have some delays due to the virus... the drivers for not have contact with people throw the packages in front of the housesThank you! I'm really curious to see if the conversion is ppssible.I suggest you to remove the lcd, as the eeprom sits on the other side of the zebra stripe, so can be damaged with the heat applied to desolder it.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2020, 09:59:15 pm
content: Quote from: masterx81 on April 22, 2020, 09:41:48 pmMe too.

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2020, 11:21:45 pm
content: Whooops sorry, noticed now the country flag

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2020, 12:33:40 am
content: My correct RAM has arrived, haven't replaced it yet, haven't dumped or sniffed the EEPROM either so far.I have built a quick and dirty IR interface and played around with FlukeView Forms and Realterm a little.The 187/189 automatically adjusts it's model number:I've removed the EDLC. On a cold start it will identify as a 189, once I have tried storing with the auto log, the meter fails to access RAM correctly (remember I still have the wrong RAM in there) and restarts itself disabling the log functions. After the restart it will identify as a 187...It should be interesting to see if that is updated to EEPROM or if it's a POST-only feature.

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2020, 12:48:06 am
content: I think that if they not installed in the assembly line the ram chip, it's quite easy to test if it's preset or not (and save few $ of the chip). I not think that's needed an eeprom rewrite for that. Instead in the 87iv tgat the hw seem identical, an eeprom write is required

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2020, 06:28:09 pm
content: I've done a little bus sniffing on the 187/189, when sending the "ID" query the only thing accessed in the 93C56S is the serial number so no luck there.On power-on while the DMM is re-discovering it has found or lost the SRAM it writes (the only write operation during power-up) to address 0x0069.If your Fluke 87IV contains 0x0037 at address 0x0069 try changing that to 0x0039.

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2020, 06:41:34 pm
content: Whoa! Bingo! 0x69 contains 0x37 (7 ascii). This worth a try.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2020, 08:04:21 pm
content: Finally I could install the drivers for the flashing device (EZP2010)…..Running the software, select 93C86, press "read"...…..….Reading ok - But it shows only FF in all lines…Must do some investigations...

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2020, 08:11:33 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on April 24, 2020, 08:04:21 pmMh... for now (read as "until i have a physical lpt port") i'm using my trusted willem. I've ordered also tl866ii plus as replacement. Hope to not have problems with it...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2020, 08:16:58 pm
content: I don´t trust the smd clip, which comes with the programmer.Damn, now it´s weekend and I didn´t have any EEPROMs here in DIL case, for testing the programmer in general.

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2020, 09:27:57 pm
content: Don't be tempted to dismantle all the electronic things in the house searching for a DIL eeprom

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 11:44:40 am
content: Nice....the programmer also "says" read chip ok, although nothing is connected on...

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 04:31:18 pm
content: I can confirm without any doubt that changing the address 0x69 from 0x37 to 0x39 have enabled logging functions.Nice find! Thanks shakalnokturn!!So 187 and 87-4 also software side are so much similar (exluding the slowness of the 5v range...)

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 04:52:13 pm
content: I'll be updating the topic on the 187 -> 189 with the power-up 93C56 captures if they are of interest for any other information.

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 04:56:49 pm
content: Sorry, what have you used for dump the eeprom data? I have a dslogic but for now i've only done some rs232 sniffing.

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 05:47:04 pm
content: To dump the 93C56 before fooling around I desoldered and used a Xeltek 500P universal programmer.For the LA captures, a cheap FX2LP board and Sigrok, my first time using that combination.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 06:47:38 pm
content: Hi,My first programmer was truly crap - and dead…Bought an TL886II, now everything works fine and I´ve done reading and savin the BIN file.As I don´t know which is it, I´ve done it twice, 8 bit and 16 bit and rename it to txt.

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 07:32:36 pm
content: Hope that also my tl866ii plus arrive soon.In any case i've not trusted to read it while soldered...I've tried to analyze the dumps, but both are really strange. Cant' be compared to my eeprom content. I attach my dump already modied for work as 89-iv

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 07:57:11 pm
content: QuoteHm-Hm...You mean it could be reading it out wrong ?

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 08:22:32 pm
content: I not know, but while you are powering the eeprom, you are powering also other devices that communicate with it, with the same wires that you are using for reading, so the read can be corrupted. Or maybe you are ptting a signal to the output pin of the master device and eventually damage it. I always prefer desolder and resolder.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 08:34:35 pm
content: In the uni-t ut210e clampmeter thread, the eeprom would be read/program in the same way, without desoldering and it works.But you have to turn the rotary switch out of the "off" position...Maybe for a good reason, so tomorrow I will read the eeprom again, by turning the switch somewhere.

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 11:20:17 pm
content: Does the TL886II have a "verify" function, if you're getting erroneous reads due to CPU on the bus you're unlikely to get the same errors on two consecutive reads, that would give a fail on the verify.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 11:26:58 pm
content: QuoteYes it does.All in all, it seems to be a real priceworthy thing.It´s got even CMOS testing functionality...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2020, 12:15:06 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on May 01, 2020, 08:34:35 pmDone, nothing has changed….

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2020, 12:23:21 pm
content: Maybe trying to desolder it? The eeprom content is too different from my dump.But i've not understood the 8/16 bit thing while saving, maybe tge problem is while saving?

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2020, 02:02:22 pm
content: My guess was that the 8/16 bit was mainly for in circuit reading, in most cases the memory organization pin "ORG" is hardwired on the PCB so the programmer must be set to fit.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2020, 02:08:07 pm
content: Hm,Here the ORG pin is connected with +5V (Pin 6,7,8 all together).QuoteAnd how ?QuoteThe 89IV is from work….

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2020, 04:30:12 pm
content: Per datasheet ORG high is 16bit organization.

author: masterx81
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2020, 06:08:44 pm
content: Uhm, interesting, haven't noticed this while reading the device. I've used the default setting of the willem programmer.

author: aronake
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2022, 10:01:39 am
content: Anyone know where to get hold of Fluke 87/89-IV, 187/189 Service Software Fluke P/N 676152?