31 year old Lithium battery still functioning - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Mark666
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 07:16:57 pm
content: I have a broken Philips PM 2519 multimeter and just out of curiosity tested the backup Lithium battery. The battery is date stamped June 1983 and unbelievably still providing 3.021 Volts.Has anyone got any older battery's that still work?

author: Wh1sper
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 07:36:44 pm
content: My Prema 5000 had shown Cal. Mem failed, because of Bat failure, but the old '85/5 Lithium cell, shows still 3.313 VoltsSo, the only way to test is, load the Bat with a small resistor an measure again, I'm sure the Voltage drops extreme low.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 07:37:47 pm
content: i have a couple of them 15-20 yrs old and still have around 3V - removed from various devices, but haven't seen a working 30yrs old one yet(btw.. i'm not planning to use them, i'm just too lazy to take them the to the proper waste disposal - but one fine day i'll do that)back in those days there was no planned obsolescence , so they manufactured quality parts

author: Mark666
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 07:47:44 pm
content: Loading the battery with a 1k resistor the voltage drops to 2.82v. Its still has enough power to drive a green LED at full brightness.Its obviously getting flat but still amazing that its holding a charge after all those years.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 09:09:28 pm
content: 30+ year old alkaline AA from Casio. Still working my calculator.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/fluke-87v-and-9v-energizer-lithium/msg172320/#msg172320

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 09:18:57 pm
content: Many years ago I read an article that detailed how Lithium primary cells are actually recharged by very small reverse leakage current flow through the often used protection diode. The current is very small and many Lithium battery data sheets detail the maximum 'charge' current that will be tolerated by the cell in recognition of the phenomenon.The result of this reverse current leakage through a protection diode is that some cells provide good service far beyond specification PROVIDED the equipment is switched on for most of its life.UPDATE: Panasonic comment on the protection diode leakage current issue with Lithium back-up cells here:http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/includes/pdf/Panasonic_Lithium_DesignMemoryBU.pdfAlso Intersil here:http://www.intersil.com/content/dam/Intersil/documents/an15/an1535.pdfAurora

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 09:23:54 pm
content: 1983 Yuasa 3-51FT/A 3.6V/60mAh NiCd still holding the memory contents on my TRS80 Model 100 for about 10 minutes...

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 01:30:07 am
content: I have a Sharp (non-solar) scientific calc with hex/oct/bin keys that is STILL on it's original lithium battery that it came with when I bought it back in ~1980/81. That calc spent many years as my go to calc but for at least the past 10 years sits in the console of my vehicle. I check it occasionally when I need to calc mpg etc and of course it still works just fine.cheers,george.

author: Wh1sper
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 04:25:09 am
content: Quote from: Aurora on June 10, 2014, 09:18:57 pmVery interesting information! Thank you

author: Richard Head
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 05:47:49 am
content: I have a Casio fx80 calculator that still has the original pair of Casio branded AA batteries. Received it as a gift in 1980.Granted, the calculator never really worked hard.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 07:51:31 am
content: Quote from: Richard Head on June 11, 2014, 05:47:49 amAmazing that they didn't spill their guts out. Did you at least look inside to make sure they are not leaking everywhere?

author: Richard Head
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 09:57:15 am
content: Amazingly they haven't leaked.I have no doubt that they have virtually no capacity at all left but enough to power the microamp load of the calculator.Anyway, I never use it as I have an HP15C.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 02:19:13 pm
content: I pulled an old R/C car battery charger out of a box this past weekend. It has a little volt/amp meter on it powered by a 9V battery. I opened it up, assuming that the batterymustbe flat and probably leaking after years in storage, but it measured good with a loading battery tester. So I switched on the meter and it works. I know for a fact that I have never replaced it, since it is still held in place with the original foam mounting tape and is a generic brand that I would not be able to buy at retail. I bought that charger at about25 yearsago. Not bad shelf life for an oldalkaline.Some AA Ni-Cd cells did not fare so well and were leaking. Inside the gear...

author: Mark666
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 05:38:59 pm
content: Thanks for the comments. I wish modern day batteries were as reliable!

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 07:13:34 pm
content: I avoid Duracell and Procell (same manufacturer) like the plague. Those cells and batteries even leak before use and whilst still in their boxes ! I have seen leakage damage from old memory retention Ni-Cad's and Super capacitors but not yet from Lithium button cells.....I may have been lucky but those Lithium button cells appear to be either solid electrolyte or well sealed.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 06:41:18 pm
content: Panasonic lithium yes, OHL not so, but they all will eventually corrode through.I do know somebody who got a 1900 or so telephone local battery, and it is still surprisingly both working ( albeit with internal resistance in the kilohm range) and not leaking yet.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 07:11:27 pm
content: Somewhere I have an hourmeter made by Red Lion Controls. It has a LCD display and runs on a built in "10 year" lithium battery. I bought it from Digi-Key back in the 80s for a project but never used it. The last time I actually looked at it was 3 or 4 years ago, and it was still working at that time.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 08:29:33 pm
content: I have four NiCd C cells made by General Electric in 1986, they came with my old Fluke 8040 DMM and amazingly they still work like a charm. I suspect they must have been sitting flat inside the meter for years, but they took charge without a problem when I revived the meter.Wish they's still make stuff like that.

author: JFA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 08:45:36 pm
content: Are you sure the battery doesn't say "Di-Lithium Crystals battery" ?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2014, 06:05:33 am
content: NiCd has no real chemistry failure method, only seals that leak or outer cases that corrode. They have multi decade lifeties in open cell versions ( along with Nickel Iron batteries as well) and are very good in cyclic use in space vehicles. There you have NiCd or silver/silver oxide and nothing else.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2014, 01:18:04 pm
content: @Seanb,Very interesting comments on Ni-Cad cells. I have experienced internal shorts within Ni-Cad's and also the dreaded 'frosting' at the vent. In both cases the cells have been unserviceable. I am assuming that the external frosting at the vent is an indicator of what is happening inside the cell as well but to be honest I have no o technical knowledge of such battery failure modes.Aurora

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2014, 02:00:29 pm
content: Frosting is a sign of failed seals, and the shorts are nickel dendrites that grow through the separator inside the cell. If you use a thicker separator you will not get shorts easily, and this is done on the space rated cells to get robustness at the expense of a larger volume for the same capacity, but they are sealed and pressurised for good life. Shorts self heal on a fully charged cell by the current burning the short away.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2014, 02:18:02 pm
content: Thanks Seanb

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2014, 02:37:22 pm
content: I cured shorts on my Panasonic cordless phone by having a simple half wave rectifier charging a 470uF 400v capacitor up, and discharging it through the cell to blow the short away. Was pretty hard on the used panel mount switch I used, but as they were used ones and I had a few anyway, and used the NC sections to disconnect the input mains before the NO sections were used to connect the big well used Siemens telex capacitor to the 2 bolts that matched the battery terminals spacing it was almost safe. Charge was plug in, and after 1 second the cap would be charged via the 1k 10W resistor and the 1N4007 diode, then press the battery onto the contacts then press the switch and hear the muffled bang and the occasional spark. Do 3 times then unplug, do a loast discharge and then try the battery voltage, it would be back over 4V. Charge and away it went. Got about 5 years more out of those cells, but eventually the phone handset was no longer repairable, and I had run out of donor units to use for parts. That KXT 9080 was great, over 1km of range on a cordless phone, even in town. Current DECT is barely a same room phone, it works in around a 20-50m radius in the best placing I could get for the base station.

author: JFA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 12:35:35 am
content: I was also told that another way is to put a high charge current on them, and knock on them with a hard screwdriver handle. It often cracks and crumble the shorts, returning them to operating status. You'll see a sharp current drop when the shorts have collapsed.I've never done it myself.

author: JFA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 12:38:52 am
content: Are there people specialised in rebuilding Ni-Cd at an affordable price ? There is an outfit near my place rebuilding Pb-acid lift batteries, taking them entirely apart, re-pasting the plates anew, etc. It's much cheaper than having to buy a new lift battery.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 06:23:20 am
content: Cylindrical NiCd no, but the larger plate cell types are rebuildable, just like the wet cell lead acid ones. You can even buy Edison batteries or make them yourself, as there are no really toxic materials inside them.

author: PointyOintment
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 11:28:42 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on June 14, 2014, 06:05:33 amNickel-hydrogen batteriesare also used in spacecraft, also due to long cycle life.