I need a mixed purpose computer, looking for suggestions - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2024, 09:18:49 am
content: I was VERY comfortable with Finalcut for VideoEditing. Unfortunately my Apple M1 air-laptop was stolen in my car (oh, got a broken window too) ... and for the moment I won't buy it back. Maybe an M2-laptop in the next semester.A second bad thing that happened: the mobo of my assembled-server suddenly died on the same day as my birthday, and I am literally going ahead with a cluster of mac-mini units, a very old mac-mini/PPC with a 7450@1.6Ghz and a mac-min/x86 with a Core2 Duo P7350 @2.00GHz.I can survive to simple tasks, but umm, it's not enough, and instead of buying a new motherboard, I am thinking about buying a whole computer.Anyway, I need a mixed purpose computer for 2024-tasks, such asbuilding Linux kernels { v2.6.*, v5.*, v6.*}, and GNU/Linux rootfs (Gentoo/Catalyst { MIPS/BE, MIPS/LE, PPC32/BE, PPC64/BE, ARM32/LE, ARM64/LE, HPPA2, x86 }+ OE)building Haiku kernels and rootfs { RISC-V, x86 }4 Qemu/{different architectures} virtual machine in parallel, don't need GPU passthrough or anything, they are just "server-profiled", so ... accessed through ssh and only on a text-consolevideo editing + H26* encoding with { Windows10/Premiere, GNU/Linux/DaVinci }drawing on a WacomOne with { GNU/Linux/Gimp, GNU/Linux/Inkscape }Looking for a second hand workstation, or server + GPU.Tempted to by an HP(Z800? Z4? X8?) Workstation with a decent (AMD?) GPU.Open to suggestions

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2024, 10:15:25 am
content: Budget? How patient are you?Judging by the fact you're looking at second hand prebuilts I presume you're rather budget sensitive. Your list is technically achievable by any computer with enough RAM made in the last 10 years (eg a 2014 Haswell SFF with 16GB of RAM would work, 32GB might be better if you want to run the VMs at the same time as everything else).Nothing in your list is realtime sensitive (like gaming or live video encoding for streaming) so there I don't see a minimum performance requirement other than your patience level. If you can give more info on your budget vs patience tradeoffs (eg how long do you want kernel builds to take?) then I might be able to help more; otherwise my suggestions will seem random.A few random points:Beware userbenchmark, they areheavily biasedand should basically be ignored.For new rigs: building your own computer tends to be cheaper (and better quality) than pre-builts of the same priceFor second hand rigs: pre-builts are a cheap base to build on BUT will have an older CPU socket (less upgrade opportunity), might use an older (more expensive) RAM variant or be missing M.2 slots (can't use modern NVME SSDs). Generally something like an old SFF is good for an office machine or a home server but is not good for high-performance tasks.Compiling large projects might depend on disk IO just as much as CPU power, so investing in an NVME SSD is probably wise."DRAMless SSDs" used to be a bad thing, but I'm not 100% sure any more, lots of the companies are doing it even with their more expensive products. Probably worth reading into.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2024, 01:11:42 pm
content: Quote from: Whales on February 13, 2024, 10:15:25 amGood question.We're talking about hobby things, say (x) =< 1000 euro.For work-things I just have to fill out an application form, present it to the right person in the purchasing office, also fill out a supporting report to the manager on duty, who in turn will give approval to the purchasing office, and wait for it to be accepted.Usually, it takes a few weeks.Quote from: Whales on February 13, 2024, 10:15:25 amI can reschedule a lot of my development hobby-tasks, well the lightest ones, on the two mac-mini-s, and wait for 3-4 months. No problem.Virtually, I also have my X1 Carbon 2017 laptop on hands, I had it at home but it's now fully "reserved" for job stuff, so I cannot bring it back home with me again. It must stay in the laboratory, at most I can take it to the bar-area, which is located inside the company, but it can't leave the gates even if it's my property.Quote from: Whales on February 13, 2024, 10:15:25 amumm, I think in my case:DaVinci for video editing + h26* encoding is the only application that really benefits from a GPU;while the need of running several Qemu/$arch virtual machines in parallel for compiling "heavy things" (1) for non x86/64bit targets is the only scenario that takes advantage of both lots of CPU threads and lots of RAM.(1) heavy thingscompile the { Linux, Haiku } kernel from sourcecompile the { GNU/Linux{glibc, musl, uclibc}, Haiku } rootfs from source

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2024, 01:20:01 pm
content: Quote from: Whales on February 13, 2024, 10:15:25 amYup, I already have one in my dead computer, so I can use it again.Thank God, it's in perfect working order

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2024, 08:25:02 pm
content: Found an HP Proliant ML350 6th generation serverit's very heavy, ~25Kg X____X, and big full metal towerwith:- 2x Xeon E5620 @ 2.40Ghz- 32GB ram (ECC)- 8X 146GB SAS (to be verified) disks- no GPU, anything ..._________________ 250 euro _______

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2024, 08:47:27 pm
content: I would not recommend that Xeon E5620 based server. It's 14 years old, it's architecture is ancient and slow, a cheap new build from consumer parts will smoke it. It's not worth 250euro.Checkout this synthetic benchmark comparisonbetween the E5620, a very cheap consumer modern processor (i3-10100F@$115AUD) and a more reasonable consumer modern processor (5 5600@$200AUD). I prefer to look at single-threaded performance in this particular benchmark as the multi-threaded is almost just this multiplied by the number of the cores.32GB of new RAM is vaguely 90-150AUD depending on variant (DDR4 vs DDR5) and speed. Ram for your Xeon will probably be very cheap on the second hand market (perhaps even $30AUD per 32GB) but you will need to make sure it's the right type for your board (registered versus unregistered DIMMs, it's a different thing to ECC vs non-ECC) otherwise it won't work. DDR3 memory throughput will be a fraction of DDR4 or DDR5 throughput.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2024, 09:00:05 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on February 13, 2024, 08:25:02 pmUgh. That's only 8 cores total in two different chips.Any recent generation Core i5 will thrash it -- they've all had 6 cores since Coffee Lake (late 2017) and all except the 35W TDP ones have 4.5 to 5+ GHz turbo.The only attractive thing is the 250 euro price, but with E5620 using 80W per chip (and you've got two of them) you'll be using maybe an extra 2 kWh every day with the Xeon, if you're keeping it busy. At prices in Europe that's potentially 500 euro of extra electricity in a year.I don't know what the idle power use is, but for sure that's a lot less with the i5 too.I'm not even counting all those disks, vs a single decent 1 TB modern one.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2024, 09:01:42 pm
content: For your budget of 1000 euro I would suggest you consider:- Ryzen 7600 (6cores) or 7700 (8cores). Very modern parts, single core performance in Passmark is about 4x the Xeon you mentioned. The 7700 is almost the same thing as the 7600 but with more cores bolted on (and sadly a much more expensive price). Be wary of the variants with letters on the end (like 'g'), sometimes they are completely different processors with different specs just to confuse you.- 64GB of RAM (or 128 if you want more for your VMs). There are some compatibility issues with AMD AM5 (Ryzen 7xxx) when it comes to non-JEDEC speeds, so don't buy "faster" ram unless you've read up on compatibility first.- Any compatible AM5 motherboard with enough IO for what you want. Quality and support from all vendors is hit and miss. Make sure it has the full 4 DDR5 slots, not just 2. You don't need a fancy VRM unless you're overclocking and using very big coolers.- A new PSU is probably worthwhile when investing this much into new parts. Don't buy anything that costs less than 100AUD (60euro).GPUs are a wildcard. They can cost anything from more than your entire budget to $150 second hand. I hate the GPU market at the moment so I'm not a good source of info. Usually I prefer AMD (especially on Linux) but if you want to run LLMs/generative AI then almost all of the software is only compatible with Nvidia's offerings.It sounds like you might already have the rest of the parts.An alternative option might be to run your VMs on a separate machine somewhere else on your network. That might be a good opportunity for something second hand. I do not recommend considering any CPU arch older than Haswell (2014) for Intel and older than Ryzen 1 (2017) for AMD, the power efficiency will be garbage and you'll end up losing your savings in electricity (and heat).

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2024, 10:04:45 pm
content: The most important thing is to have CPU load, memory and disk I/O monitors on your desktop so you know your workloads' demands and don't need to ask questions like this

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2024, 11:01:47 pm
content: For a datapoint, I stumbled into having a server. I made a low eBay bid on an 8 core (16 thread) xeon with motherboard and 16GB RAM. I think it was something like £38. I managed to get 64GB ECC RAM for £10 and a 10 core 20 thread CPU for another £15. A cheap low profile cooler (£22), 512GB NVME drive (£29) a 16 port SATA connector (£40) connected to some old drives that were laying about, and a 2.5GB NIC (£25) combined with an old PSU and some 3D printed parts and hey presto, I slapped on ProxMox and it's the cheap 'homelab' server I've been running for a while, while I get used to having a server.It runs fine, I have too many cores for what I use it for, and not enough RAM. It's my Pi-Hole, Truenas core server, and a testbed for any OS that I like the look of. I have one VM that just runs After Effects (scanning a shared dataset folder on the TrueNas server for projects and rendering anything it finds there) I have web based system monitoring on it and I can see it is hardly being used anywhere near capacity except for RAM.If I had more budget and were to do it again, I'd go for 128-512GB of RAM, a newer xeon, ideally with 20 cores (40 threads), and a 10GB NIC. I've seen machines like that in 2U size with 16x900GB SAS drives (something like 14TB of storage), although without the 10GB NIC, quite cheap, although they do go quick and then seem to be relisted at a much higher price.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2024, 11:39:29 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 13, 2024, 09:00:05 pmumm, I prefer the opposite, for several reasons.With several disks in mirroring, the probability of losing data is less than the chance you have if the data is all on the same device and it diesAnd SAS >=1T disks are so bloody expensive.in fact, I'm tempted to call this guy and ask him if he's willing to sell just the SAS-disks

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2024, 11:45:19 am
content: Quote from: quince on February 13, 2024, 11:14:56 pmhow you can run Windows10 on a RPI?how you can do video editing (Davinci on a RPI? seriously?!?)?how you can run 4 Qemu/$arch vm in parallel (with max8 GB!?!? and no VM-support?!?)?I'm not looking for a toy/NAS, I'm looking for a workstation/server; the specifications of what I need are in the first post!

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2024, 12:38:20 pm
content: Quote from: magic on February 13, 2024, 10:04:45 pmlook,I don't understandanythingabout x86 computers, and I would prefer to spend my money on much nicer things like POWER9(PPC64/LE) and/or AMPERE (ARM64).All things that I work(1) on every now and then, which are in the order of at least 4000 euros, and they make sense neither about electricity(2) as they tend to consumer more, nor the possibility to find second hand.(1) commercial solutions, made by Raptor Computing Systems / Raptor EngineeringI have qty=8Talos IIunits at work.Talos IItwo-socket workstation/server platform using POWER9 SMT4 Sforza processors, available as 2U server, 4U server, tower, or EATX mainboard.With { 4 , 8, 18, 22, ... } core chip options until chips with more cores are available.Talos II/Litesingle-socket version of the Talos II mainboard, made using the same PCB.Blackbird (cheapest)single-socket microATX platform using SMT4 Sforza processors, up to 4–8 cores, 2 RAM slots supporting up to 256 GiB total(2) IBM offered for free some POWER units to Cern, which rejected them because, according to them, the difference in unit/price (for future purchases) and in the bill at the end of the year is more convenient with x86/64.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2024, 05:35:38 pm
content: RasPi 5 wih a quad core at 2.4GHz is a joke. Next thing somebody will suggest is Arduino Uno with bitbanged SDRAM and SDAs an AMD fanboy I would look at the AM4 platform or maybe AM5 if it became cheap enough, get as much RAM as needed, spend the rest on the fastest CPU in budget. Try to get ECC if possible (ASUS AMD mobos tend to have it, which is rare in consumer world).No idea about GPU acceleration of video encoding, perhaps some money could be shifted into that for better performance. Myself, I always get the cheapest GPU that can drive whatever monitors I have. AFAIK you can't speed up GCC with GPUDon't bother with RAID arrays for software development, unless RAID1 of SSDs. You don't need lots of storage for source code, but things like git really speed up on SSD a lot, if you don't have it all in page cache.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2024, 07:30:16 pm
content: If you're going for a "cheap" oldish Xeon-based system, at least go for the high-core count ones, otherwise it's worthless, as Bruce said. But it's not gonna cost you 250 euros.I have recycled Xeon CPUs before (v4 series, 2016, now cheap), can be interesting but yeah, go for >= 12 cores per CPU.Now of course a complete system around this with several HDDs will draw a lot of power, so depends on whether electricity is cheap or not where you are.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2024, 08:17:39 pm
content: Quote from: magic on February 14, 2024, 05:35:38 pmummm actually -why not an X86 PCI accelerator for your HPPA2-RISC workstation?- the next thing Ania suggestedYep, she did! And technically they "exist".SUN made them for Sparc workstations, and they were an epic commercial failure. Sure, they survive thanks to eBay and collectors, but the best you can find is a "complete PC with serial, Video and pATA" in "PCI-board-shape" with an i586 CPU and umm less than 128Mbyte local FastPage/72pin RAM, and, worse still, one these bloody things appears on the PCI bus as "bus-master" when it needs to access the shared RAM, or to more RAM, or to a device.The damn things need a lot of patches and have always been ignored by developers because they are too expensive and very rare to find, not very efficient (hey? i586@200Mhz? really?) and *VERY* difficult to support.So... guess the idea was to migrate there the Windows tasks (umm Premiere? LOL), but thanks, no thanks!

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2024, 08:26:13 pm
content: Quote from: magic on February 14, 2024, 05:35:38 pmYup, GPU can be an advantage for H264/H265, the standard required by Youtube. That's great for me!Doesn't speed up Gcc, but I need to video edit by time to time, and I no more own my Apple M1 laptop, as got stolen.Quote from: magic on February 14, 2024, 05:35:38 pmYup, I don't bother at all as all the "commit" and "repository" storage will go outside the workstation/server through NFS, and for local pporcessing I also have fast SSDs, but I don't have any SAS disk; I have SCSI and sATA disks, so ... getting qty=6 SAS disks (146GB each) for 60 euro in total is a great thing

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2024, 08:52:16 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 14, 2024, 07:30:16 pmit was one of the first things I looked at, as seen in a customer's office.(HP Z800)I was looking at one of those beautiful Z800 made by HP.SpecshereLook how clean they are inside! Well made! WOW!... unfortunately it's an old computer.and, umm, a decent Z800 workstation- Quad-Core Intel Xeon Processor 5500 Series, usually E5504@2GHz- 32GB ECC ram- NVIDIA Quadro FX 580 512 MB PCIe Graphics Cardseems liested for 400-500 euro

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2024, 08:54:20 pm
content: Quote from: Microdoser on February 13, 2024, 11:01:47 pmI like this idea

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2024, 09:25:20 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 13, 2024, 09:00:05 pmI have a few solar panels on the roofs and an accumulator.3k Watt in the best case.The max electricity I decided to use for computing stuff is 800 Watt.The main UPS is 1K watt.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2024, 10:08:06 pm
content: umm, the HPZ4 Workstationis a 2018 computer.It's not as nice as the Z800 but I like it, and looks good a candidate for my needs

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2024, 11:14:21 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on February 14, 2024, 08:54:20 pmI'm still ironing it out, but the concept is that you edit on one machine, then save the project in a shared folder that is set to be watched with all the source on a mapped network drive (with the compositions you want rendered in the root of the project) and it sits there rendering out anything it finds. You can have many machines all checking that folder and saving individual frames to the output folder. They skip already generated (or partially generated) frames so as long as your data can be served fast enough, or your project is complex enough that the load time is much shorter than the frame generation time, you can really speed up rendering and have a farm.While that is chugging away in the background, you can be editing another composition. Finish the work day and it carries on while you sleep...

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2024, 10:20:06 am
content: The HP Z-series are good, but power hogs. Not sure whether that's important to you or not.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2024, 11:30:59 am
content: Question: why a server? What can a server do that a "regular" desktop PC can't?

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2024, 02:05:38 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on February 15, 2024, 11:30:59 amGood question, bug incorrectly formulated: if anything,why do you prefer Servers?well ...I usually use machines remotely, over { vt100/RS232, ssh, X11, RDP, KVM }, but that's not a great point here.If really anything, it's that "Desktop PCs" are usually sold with a pre-configured setup that includes an overloaded GPU, which is usually exactly what I don't need.HP offers at least four profiles to choose from- 2D, super basic, super cheap, and very little power since all the circuits for 3D graphics are physically missing- basic level (3D)- medium level (3D+)- high level (3D++)You choose! This is precisely where I should consider who advised me to build a PC myself but... if it's x86 stuff I'm not too knowledgeable about prices, what to look for, where to buy, and compatibility of parts.With HP, IBM, and (and above all with) Raptor Computing Systems (POWER9!!!), for each product you have full documentation, including part numbers of what does work and what does not, with the firmware, with Linux, etc, so, it's easier.I usually don't like those desktop PCs full of flashing LEDs and other features meant for the "gaming" profileServers are usually made with redundant PSUs (I like this!), and rack mount option, which is also a great solution if you want to mount them securely in a mini cabinet of the "computer room" in your attic or cellar(1), and usually server cabinet offer more space for HDDs and larger or longer cards, which can be interesting, e.g. if I want to install a PCIe-to-PCI bridge to develop something for my PCI-FPGA cards.Just this(1) I had to modify the case of an Apple PowerMac G4 MDD, and make steel brackets, to cut the steel, weld, hammer it, drill it in order to install that bloody computer into a rack cabinet. Umm, so yes, feasable, but ... the point here is ... with Desktop PCs I have the feeling you always have to "hack" something to make it rack-mountable.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2024, 02:37:40 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 15, 2024, 10:20:06 amumm, 1Kwatt is the max I can supply.I've already wondered why HP tends to make things sopower hungrywhen I picked up my HP-PARISC workstation(1) and found that with GNU/Linux it draws up to ~ 150 Watts(2) even though there are nothing but common demons waiting for a connect, i.e. { sshd , telenetd, tftpd, nfsd, ... } but nothing that is actively but silently compiling inside a tmux/screen.So, when Top says that both the CPU and IO loads are low, indeed you immediately get when Gcc, Ninja and distcc are running because as soon as you try to invoke "emerge" to compile something serious (i.e. "emerge cmake", which eats up to 1Gbyte of ram, and takes 2 hours to compile), the wattmeter says that the power consumption has risen to 500 Watts, value in the measurement window of the wattmeter, which then goes back down to ~150Watt as soon as it's finishedHP ...(2) with- 1 CPU, PA-RISC-v2@~550Mhz- 8Gbyte ram (HP custom, I think they are ~DDR1)- two SCSI HDDs@12K-rpm (Raptors)- two PCI-fiberoptic cards- one PCI-Wifi card- one PCI-Matrox MillennumI, MDA- one PCI-Adaptec-SCSI-lvd card

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2024, 03:05:00 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on February 15, 2024, 11:30:59 amNothing. They are both just computers at the end of the day. A better question would be, in which way is a server more capable than a desktop PC?The answer to that question is that a server generally can be fitted with more memory, that memory can be ECC memory, they have more PCIE lanes, the ability to fit more drives, better networking, and more cores/threads than your average desktop PC. So if your workload depends on multiple users accessing large amounts of data at the same time over a network, then a server will in most cases be far more capable of doing that. If you are a single user but want to have multiple VMs running many networking services, then a server will generally be more capable of doing that than a desktop PC. A single user that wants to have multiple cheap machines, all having access to the same data, and farming out the heavy lifting to a centralised machine running various VMs will find that having a server will mean a better and more efficient workflow.Again, a desktop PC can do all of those things, but a server can do them *better*

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2024, 04:16:28 pm
content: I just decided that the killer app at the top of the list will beQuickEmu!(clickhere)kind of "profiler" for Qemu

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2024, 02:40:07 pm
content: From what I've seen, servers or even workstations are stupid expensive compared to "regular" desktop PCs. If it's about space for expansion: get a mid tower or even a full tower.Unless you need a server-only feature (like redundant PSU): get a desktop.Putting a system together these days really isn't all that hard. Pick your parts, you can post them here for verification. I'm sure people (myself included) will be more than happy to double check. To check prices, I often use mindfactory.de. I'm sure there's a UK equivalent as well. For fun and giggles (non-researched, just as an FYI), I put together a system:Inter-Tech B-42 Midi Tower ohne Netzteil schwarz:29€Generic mid-size housing. No rainbow barf32GB Patriot VIPER VENOM DDR5-6000 DIMM CL36 Dual Kit:108€1TB Samsung PM9B1 M.2 2280 PCIe 4.0 x4 3D-NAND TLC :90€AMD Ryzen 5 7600 6x 3.80GHz So.AM5 BOX:190€Mid range recent CPU. Fairly future proof and upgradeable platformASRock Phantom Gaming Riptide AMD B650 So.AM5 DDR5 mATX Retail170€Full size ATX, more PCIe slots2 x Phanteks SK PWM Lüfter - 120mm, schwarz16€650 Watt Seasonic G12 GM Teilmodular 80+ Gold70€No PSU redundancy, but a quality PSU goes a long way. Power budget for more SSDs, a GPU, bigger COU...Total cost <700€. No OS. No GPU. There's GPU inside the CPU that is enough for "normal" productivity stuff including video conferencing and the like. I think the mobo will allow you to do dual display. If you need more: spend anywhere between 200 and 2000€