EEVblog #1058 - Quick 861DW Hot Air Rework Station Review - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 08:46:42 am
content: Quick 861DW Hot Air Rework Station ReviewIn my opinion, the odd style of design is somewhat poor for a top end rework station, the color?the steped cabinet design looks more at home on a truck bonnet then in a electronics lab.I prefer a more functional design with rotary encoder knobs replacing the odd guitar pick buttons.the on/off switch miss out on the re-design.the LCD display screen looks good.here is functional design using rotary encoder knobs

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 11:55:39 am
content: I've been working with Weller WR3000 stations for 5 years, and their hot air part is a total joke. It is way too loud, and not enough air, and only 400W. Then I tried the Atten 858D+ and it hit me, how much better it was at desoldering then the weller. At the same time, I also had a Metcal iron, and that was also better. I dont know is it fair, to compare a 3 in 1 station with a dedicated hot air? Maybe not, Weller has the WTHA-1 and it is 900W and 3x the price of this.It just feels like someone slaps you in the face, and shows you something, that works a lot better than what you've been using for a long time.For this station, my biggest complain would be the lack of IEC power input. It is really not hard to use that on every lab equipment. I dont understand how can they release something without that.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 01:03:26 pm
content: LOL, Dave, why are you using holder put backwards through all of the video?EDIT: BTW 861DW has 120l/min airflow. So according to spec it's supposed to be the same airflow as Atten. 200l/min is for 861DE. There is a lot of free space inside because DE version which uses the same enclosure has a HUUGE fan.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 01:07:06 pm
content: BTW heating element is cartridge type. You can just remove 3 screws and pull it out.

author: geekabit
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 01:59:45 pm
content: That was a lovely episode, and it just happens that I'm in the market for a hot air station.A couple of years ago I used to work for an electronics manufacturer, doing fault-finding and repairs on all kinds of circuit boards. I had a JBC AM6000 station at my disposal and that had the best hot air station I've ever used. It had 1kW of power and enough airflow to blow solder drops from the board. It also came with some additional bits. It had cups you could place around big parts to keep the heat in one place, shielding the rest of the board. It also had a lovely little tripod with a spring-loaded suction cup. You would place the tripod over a part and attach the suction cup to the top of your component. When the solder is all molten, the part is pulled up by half a centimetre.Ever since I stopped working there I have longed to have one of those soldering stations at home, but with by budget that is not happening. Used those are occasionally available around 1200 Euro and that is quite a bit more than I'm willing to spend. How would the Quick compare to such a station?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 02:03:59 pm
content: Quote from: geekabit on February 16, 2018, 01:59:45 pmQuick beats JBC.

author: max_torque
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 02:55:58 pm
content: on difference is that the Atten has the air pump (actually a small axial fan) in the hand section, the Quick unit has the air pumped up the rubber hose from a pump in the unit. Hence the Quick unit is probably nicer to use from a noise/NVH perspective as you are more likely to be holding the hand section close to your ears than the main body of the device, which is sat on your bench somewhere.The small wire to the Atten hand section is more wieldy however, so it's a matter of personal opinion on which is better.I find the atten unit to be powerful enough, in fact, the limit usually just becomes one of toasting / melting top side components if you try to heat the whole pcb via just hot air from above. For IMS or heavy copper boards, a gentle warming (from a hot plate set at 100degC) or pre-warming from a toaster oven etc makes all the difference

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 02:59:19 pm
content: The genuine EMI filter costs >100 Euro,e.g. herehttps://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/ZOB-Jianli-EMI-power-filter-DL-10T1-5PCS-LOT/119293_32695277012.htmlI suppose they used a fake $7 version as available here (different printing on front and showing no schematic....I am wondering why the schematic is missing):https://kulon.en.alibaba.com/product/60572572035-803948429/Low_pass_DL_10T1_10A_single_phase_emc_power_line_noise_rf_emi_filter.htmlDave: can you open the EMI filter? It would beveryinteresting to see whats inside - probably not a lot.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 03:29:35 pm
content: Quote from: Pinkus on February 16, 2018, 02:59:19 pmThat is 5PCS/lot.https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Low-pass-DL-10T1-10A-single_60572572035.htmlIt is about 7 dollar.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 03:56:05 pm
content: Quote from: Pinkus on February 16, 2018, 02:59:19 pmLOL. On which planet do you live? 2 chokes + a few capacitors > 100 EUR. Only if you buy military grade.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 07:43:09 pm
content: I think either Daves 858 unit is defective or the clones have made a lot of improvements. I have a "858D+" clone unit, set to 300 it will ramp up similar to the Quick and does not overshoot at all (ends at 296C). No problems with the magnetic sleep detection either. There is a big thread about custom firmware for the 858 here as well, probably initial firmware wasn't great.I take louis' tool recommendations with a grain of salt after he claimed the Hakko (FR-803B?) heats up boards much faster than the 858. Even though it has a terrible diaphragm pump and the heater is rated ~400W, compared to the 858's 700W (about 600W in reality). At least in this video Dave clearly shows the quick 1kW is better than 600W. Probably about what you'd expect with ~50% more power and~70% moresimilar air flow, that it would be almost twice as fast.There is probably a market for an improved 858 unit with 1kW heater and a better fan, and proper high temperature cable. It could be almost as good as the Quick, and not have the downsides (thick heavy cable going to the handle, and huge control box). But Quick definitely looks like a great unit.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 08:58:02 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 16, 2018, 07:43:09 pmAccording to spec, airflow is the "same" for quick and atten, so you should guess that someone is not honest. Dave got spec wrong for quick, 861DW has 120l/min airflow. He most likely confused it with 861DE which is 1.3kW and 200l/min. Look on the picture in my post above.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 09:05:46 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 16, 2018, 07:43:09 pmDownsides? You rather prefer bulky and heavy handpiece vibrating in your hand which is unable to work up to rated airflow? Fan used is not intended for such application, therefore cannot offer good airflow at high static pressure, which happens especially when you use a small nozzle.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 09:16:40 pm
content: Just thinking that, as this likely will be most used with the handle vertical, that having the hose coming out of the top of the unit, or an elbow for the front, along with a lightly spring loaded arm to keep that loop of tubing up out of the way, would be a good modification to the unit, or at least use it with the base on a shelf above your work area, so the tubing is less in the way.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 10:07:06 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 16, 2018, 09:05:46 pmWould be interesting to weigh the handles, I suspect they are not too far off.I agree with you the fan on Quick is going to be way better, but its a trade-off where you have to use bulky tubing.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 10:31:15 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 16, 2018, 10:07:06 pmI don't find it any more constraining than simple cable.

author: EMC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 05:23:26 am
content: There could easily be a conducted EMI issue with this product. The mains filter appears relatively ineffective because of incorrect layout & wiring. Mains should come into the chassis and straight to the mains filter first (in-line fuse excepted); then the output of the filter should be routed to the front panel switch. Also, a straight line layout should be the target. If this is not done the high filtering figures spec'd for the filter will never be realised. I wish Dave had of remembered to power the LISN from an isolation transformer. Or, he may even return to this hopefully.?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 05:37:58 am
content: Quote from: EMC on February 17, 2018, 05:23:26 amOK, please explain, how additional 25cm of the wire added to the mains cable and long building wiring will make any noticeable difference. And not, there are no EMI issues with quick. Actually it's really ridiculous to repeatedly hear about lights flickering discussed as EMI issue. The reason why lights are flickering is because 1kW resistive load is constantly switched on and off to keep the set temperature. It's much larger problem with 120V mains voltage as wiring can supply less power end therefore experience higher voltage sag percentage relative to the mains voltage.

author: EMC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 06:02:12 am
content: 25cm of mains cabling passing closely by all RF emission sources effectively 'short circuits' the RF filter function; input to output. It reduces filter effectiveness to around 10-15dB rather than >40dB available. I have seen this several times when mains enters at the rear is then routed to the on/off switch on the front panel & then back to the rear to be applied to the filter. The best technical solution is to use a filter with integrated IEC socket. That forces the first connection to be mains to the filter at the rear.BTW. I am not sayng there is a relationship between the lights flickering & EMI. The device does have to meet reg's for EMI. Why is there such a large mains filter??

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 06:51:01 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 17, 2018, 05:37:58 amI have encountered a dimmer that is very EMI sensitive. The lights connected to it (and only those lights) flicker like crazy when a vacuum cleaner is in use.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 10:47:23 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on February 17, 2018, 06:51:01 amDunno about cleaner but question was about wires going to the switch first claimed to be adding EMI issues. If you were radiating that piece of wire with RF transmitter, or run around something like brushed motor, then maybe. 861 even has plastic front panel, so I don't think that box may contain EMI transmitter inside it.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 10:57:25 am
content: Quote from: EMC on February 17, 2018, 06:02:12 amDunno why they spent money on such filter but 861 uses zero-crossing for the heater. Likely it would be fine even without any filter.QuoteIf you get filter in such package, then it should be 1 stage only and with low inductance to be rated for enough current.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 07:19:31 pm
content: I was curious about the technique of hitting the chips with 400degrees? I' go to a lot of effort to preheat the board, and then run a ramped up profile ( start with air at about 220C then move to 340C ), but you just hit it with 400C and 20seconds later chip is off. Awesome. Is there a risk factor in this?

author: Markybhoy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 07:43:23 pm
content: I bought 2 of these a while back from Somatin and had to return them due to the nasty smell from them was strange as I've never heard anyone else with this problemhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/quick-861dw-hot-air-station/msg1296069/#msg1296069Maybe I'll take a punt on one from Loius.Also here is a calibration vid -https://youtu.be/f_GKo_4EZhQ

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 07:49:12 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 16, 2018, 07:43:09 pmNo, the clones make it worse. Most of them actively lie - they WILL NOT show a temperature above the set temperature, and they all overshoot horribly.

author: Andrey_irk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 05:05:40 am
content: I have one station at work and find it great to work with. Have no issues with EMI from it.We also bought 202D soldering stations which are also great. I don't have a lot of experience with expensive soldering stations though. And 202D is way better than fx888 I have at home.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 07:24:22 am
content: They look like they make some other itneresting products.http://www.quick-global.com/product.html

author: vze1lryy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 07:53:26 am
content: Quote from: jonovid on February 16, 2018, 08:46:42 amI would prefer rotary encoder knobs by far as well. The buttons bother me. I forgive them for giving me presets, but still would prefer knobs.Quote from: NANDBlog on February 16, 2018, 11:55:39 amThat bothers me as well. We used to sell a 220VAC version. 220VAC is fine but people have different electrical sockets in different parts of the world. Many labs have their own IEC cables but not a lot have converter adapters for random plugs from other sides of the world. I can't tell if it is cost cutting measure or laziness.Quote from: NANDBlog on February 16, 2018, 11:55:39 amIt is absolutely fair to compare 3-in-1 stations with dedicated hot air, because most of the time you do not save money buying the all-in-one station. It is ok to have equal expectations when it costs as much money.You can buy the FM-203 from Hakko plus an FR-801 at the time for the same price as an FM-206. So long as the company charges so much for the 3-in-1 that you could have bought discrete tools and spent the same amount of money, it is fair to point out that the 3-in-1 tools provide unusable hot air. The Hakko FR-801 is underpowered in contrast to the Quick or any modern station. But even the FR-801 was far ahead of the FM-206. I tried them both here.My experience with the WR3000 from Weller was equally disappointing. It costs over $3000. The fact that the hot air is so weak is a slap in the face.Quote from: wraper on February 16, 2018, 02:03:59 pmEeeeeeh. I have a JBC JT-A. It costs about $1600. The quick is under $300.Is the JBC $1300 better than the Quick? No.Is the JBC $600 better than the Quick? Maybe.The handpiece has an antimicrobal texture, and is also slimmer. The Quick 861DW has a fat base. Think of it like trying to write with a sharpie vs. writing with a lysol can. The JBC is quieter, does not cause any disturbance in the room's electricity as well. It's just a higher end piece of kit.It is egregious that the JBC costs $1600 while the Quick costs $300, but the JBC is better. Especially if you are working on things that require great accuracy, or if you are working for 12 hours a day. It is a joy. I cannot for reasons of practicality justify spending $1600 on a standard desk hot air station, so even though I could afford it, I use the Quick.Not to mention that the JBC JT-A heating element by itself costs about $205-$220. I'm never buying another JBC station at those prices. I understand if the station were cheap, that they need to make the money back by upping the cost of the heating element. But at $1600+ for the station, $205-$220 for the heating element is an unwelcome kick in the groin.Quote from: thm_w on February 16, 2018, 07:43:09 pmMy claim wasn't that the FR-801 heated boards up faster than the 858, my claim was that the 858 was useless for multilayer board repair. We bought two or three of them for Jessa Jones' classes in 2015 and none of them could remove an ISL6259 given 5 minutes from an 820-3115. I thought the students were messing with me until I tried it myself. I sat there with it on a donor board, preheated the area at full temp for a few minutes from further away, and then spent about five minutes right over the chip. It never came off.It probably could have been done with hotter pre-heating of the entire board via a hotplate or something, but the fact that it couldn't remove the chip at all at its highest setting was reason enough for me to junk it. I am sure it is fine for hobbyist use or for use on boards that are less vicious but I can't recommend it to the people who want to emulate what I am doing when I could never get it to work on these boards. Especially on an iPhone, even the slightest extra bit of time and you're roasting chips with underfill and having balls expand. Too dangerous and not worth the risk for the $$.I have no desire to use $650 equipment when a $50 station would do the job, especially when we're spending money on student desks. $50/desk beats $650/desk!This is the issue I have with the ultra-cheap stations. I can buy the same station at different times and get different results. The quality/consistency from station to station even in the same model is so off that I never know what I'm getting. I read 1 star reviews of these saying it worked terribly and 5 star saying they work great and I believe for each of those individuals, that they were correct. I don't believe that they received the "same" station though, even if they received the same model.I am open to the idea that changes have been made to the design in the past three years. I'm also open to the idea that all three we received were defective. I still find it hard to believe making that station to where a vendor can profit selling on Amazon for $57 and free shipping can be done with any degree of quality control, so I wouldn't be surprised if all 3 were defects. But the stuff I tried in 2015 was beyond awful for working on any type of Macbook motherboard made after 2010.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 09:44:48 am
content: Quote from: vze1lryy on February 19, 2018, 07:53:26 amI was meaning performance, not feelings. Yes JBC JT-A is slimmer and looks better, but offers only 40% of the max airflow compared to 861DW, no wonder it's quieter. 861DW at such airflow is extremely quiet as well. JBCs max 50l/min is already lower that what I generally use (~60-70l/min), not to say I often use max airflow (120l/min) as well. EDIT: There is a 200l/min version of 861 too, which makes a 4x difference.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 09:14:56 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 17, 2018, 07:49:12 pmBut I measured it with a thermocouple and it was fine. Can't say the same for all clones of course, and I believe you that the firmware is probably written to hide problems.Quote from: vze1lryy on February 19, 2018, 07:53:26 amInteresting. Totally agree that the quality on the 858's is all over the place so getting something consistent is difficult. That is reason enough for you to not use it, or anyone whose job relies on it.I have seen some users cut out the fan shrouding to presumably improve airflow. Its possible the fan is garbage or there are mold issues restricting airflow. All other things being equal, less air flow could mean the multilayer board would not heat up quickly enough.thanks for the detailed response!

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2018, 04:23:00 pm
content: I wonder if the QICK713 ESD hot air section is the same as in the 861dw...http://www.quick-global.com/2-rework-system-3.html