FLUKE quick Blow Fuses ... deeper specs !!     - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2010, 11:58:07 am
content: Well, recently got few Fluke meters , old fashion bench meters, that all use 2A glass 5mm-20mm fuses.I speculate that they are quick blow ones !!Does any one have any knowledge about the true specs of them ?Found one Chinese seller , who haves quick blow ones with good specs,and the factory haves all the world wide certifications too !!Check out this page .. ( Use IE works best with it )This fuses are baptized as F5 ..http://en.xcfuse.com/newEbiz1/EbizPortalFG/portal/html/ProductInfoExhibit.html?ProductInfoExhibit_ProductID=c373e9189328f07e8f7b8d586ce41403&ProductInfoExhibit_isRefreshParent=false

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2010, 12:29:26 pm
content: All meters that I've seen use fast-blow fuses for current ranges, but the manual (and possibly even printing on the case) should confirm this. Those fuses that you link to seem standard glass fuses that you can buy for something like $0.15 each, they should be fine, and are used in lots of bench meters (including some current ones). There are 5x20 fuses with a ceramic body and higher interrupt current, but they seem somewhat rare. I think sticking to the original spec should be fine, although I wouldn't use it for high-energy (Cat III/IV) work. I doubt someone would measure current by cutting a connection and putting a meter in series on these circuits, that's what clamp meters are for.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2010, 04:53:57 pm
content: Well I had in mind this ....http://www.cooperbussmann.com/pdf/4117cf4f-98cd-4b31-a55a-38ddb6062d91.pdfIn comparison with the link above.The best of the West , in comparison with the best of the East.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2010, 05:46:58 pm
content: Oh well I got in to calculations with milliseconds , and the China ones are just a bit slower .That at the scale of milliseconds to microseconds , looks to have no importance at all , as comparison of specs.So I quit about getting more to it.

author: Mr J
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2010, 06:21:20 pm
content: i was looking into making an adaptor to convert the .402" (27 dollars!) fuses to the cheaper 5mmx20 ($1.43 ones). Couldn't believe it 27 bucks from digikey the DMM-B-44/100, what's it made of gold?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2010, 09:35:52 pm
content: Quote from: Mr J on December 23, 2010, 06:21:20 pmYes, they are horribly expensive, so I try not to blow them. I think I paid less than $27, though. The fact that they are rated up to 10kA or so at some fairly high voltage makes them expensive. Agilent uses even higher specced ones.If you replace them by inferior ones, be sure to mark it as not suitable for anything but SELV (separated extra low voltage), it won't meet IEC61010 (the CAT I/II/III/IV stuff) anymore, since the fuses are an important part of the safety features. It's definitely unsafe for dangerous potentials like mains. I would also make sure to never let anyone else use it, since they might expect it to behave to marked specs (eg. CAT III 1000V). If the fuse is connected to a low-impedance circuit like mains, the high instantaneous current could create an arc in the fuse, which would allow current to continue flowing even after the wire is vaporized. Those expensive fuses are specifically designed to prevent this.Yes, for small batteries or bench supplies it's overkill, but just connecting a smaller/faster fuse in series would accomplish the same, you wouldn't have to defeat any safety features of your DMM, and would be plainly visible to anyone using it.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2010, 11:43:39 pm
content: Couldn't believe it 27 bucks from digikey the DMM-B-44/100, what's it made of gold?Often it is Silver!$27 is a mess load cheaper than a burnt out PCB in a $500 multimeter.By the time you blow your third Fluke fuse your usually conditioned to double check your meter settings before placing the probes in circuit.A whole lot cheaper than the cheapo meters that use the patented"Thwarrrrp And Flash 50Hz over-load indication system"which is reset by purchasing a new meter.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2010, 12:07:59 am
content: Here is a picture of the prices in the Fluke shop ...(That's my quick reply , soon and the full.).

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 24, 2010, 12:45:29 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on December 24, 2010, 12:07:59 am5 for $42, bargain, last time I looked they were asking around $12AU each.http://australia.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=retrieveTfg&binCount=2&Nty=1&Ntx=mode%2bmatchallpartial&Ntk=I18NAll&Ne=4294960157&Nr=AND%28avl%3aau%2csearchDiscon_au%3aN%29&N=4294857018&Ntt=fluke+fuse

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2010, 02:00:48 am
content: Ok I have 20 Firefox windows openAnd its hard to combine the info ..For start link from European manufacturers .. and picturesFerraz Shawmut Lindner( France ) The new company name will beMersenFrance.http://www.ferrazshawmut.com/DF( Spain )( I have this )http://www.df-sa.es/en/fuses-and-fuse-links/semiconductor-fuse-links/semiconductor-fuse-links.htmlLegrand( France) BT Sicherung 10x38mm 10A Typ aM 13010Sicherung = fuse in German( I have this )SiemensET Zylinder Sicherung G10x38mm 500V 10A(Picture below).schneider-electrichttp://www.schneider-electric.comSIBA = American linkhttp://www.sibafuses.com/Some pictures ( and soon my thoughts)

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2010, 03:02:51 am
content: Ok here is my thoughts ..1)The problem finding those fuses by WEB search engines ,its truly BIG.Why ?Because those items are industrial parts , and they live in large catalogs made from paper ..Who will ever thought , that some one seeks Fuses due WEB search engines ?This idea or "way of thinking" its what happens even today.2)The pricing .. The retail channels takes advantage of the fact,that very few had invest about the Fuses marketing - promotion ,and they shoot to kill about pricing for an single Fuse ( occasional buyer ).The professional who will get the box of 10 , gets better pricing " always does " .3)Specifications ...Its a bit confusing subject ...And this time I will try to not use technical terms ( walking against the river )I bet that an Car Electrician , does not need 1000V Fuses !!I bet that some one who does electronic repairs on bench ,does not need 1000V Fuses !! the 90%I bet that common electricians, who are repairing home appliances ,kitchen oven - refrigerators - washing machines - small electric motors ,does not need 1000V Fuses !!Who does need 1000V Fuses ??The meter , so to comply at the given specifications.And me, the Industrial electrician , because at the industrial installations ,the power cables run over metallic channels ( cable holders ) ,and you never know what possibly have happen in serious damages ..Example ....an welding machine of one worker , caused too much sparks that fall on the floor ,and below there is an channel full of cables , and the extremely hot metal had passed from the grill on the floor level , and a big mess happened on the cables !!Lots of cables with burned or damaged isolation.At this point you are unsure , of the true voltage output of those cables ..And you have to repair them ...And now the tricky part , the rule are always replace an damaged cable ...The rule of your Boss are .... that you have to make somehow , the repair less costly,and patch the less " serious " damages.I am talking here with real life scenarios , please spare me about rules of what is 100% correct or not.End of the example ...Back to the Fuses ..I have found and own the pictured Fuses above ,they are for use in industrial fuse holders.I safe keep them as backup fuses , and I was plan to use them , as spares so to gain time,until to find better ones .I can not afford to have the DMM not operational , just because of Fuses.Later on I got the Chauvin Arnoux AC/DC Clamp probe ( accessory for oscilloscope + multimeter) 100mA - 400A detection.In simple words I do not do direct measurements of Amperes with my multimeter's .Last round and closing ..The damn 440mA its the only fuse that haves the highest percentage to die ,against the 11A ..If you work with low voltage , nothing stops you, from using what ever is available,in the nearest depot of industrial materials , few blocks from your home.Its up to you, to get the proper fuses, depending on the style or requirements of your work.The "Fluke" fuses cover all the possible range of voltages,because it targets and the Industrial market , simple as that.Quick Blow VS slow blow ..Do your home work before you buy.

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2010, 08:09:44 pm
content: this seems like a lot of time to spend on just fuses

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 24, 2010, 09:58:49 pm
content: Quote from: Time on December 24, 2010, 08:09:44 pmIronic comment given your forum user-name

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2010, 01:46:40 am
content: Time does relate with those Fuses .You need time to find them , and working time so to pay them.The cheapest of the 10X38 that I found are at 1.50 EUR its .The average price looks to be 2.20EUR its per 10 Fuses.And so the average are about 3$ per Fuse.It is a rip off , from any side if you look at it.Hell it worth's at this pricing, to start my own factory and just live by making Fuses.

author: PetrosA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2010, 03:53:01 am
content: I also spent a lot of time recently looking for fuses to match the specs on one of my DMMs. It turns out they're now obsolete, and finding a match would be impossible, so I had to figure out what the hell the specs really were in the first place and what could I replace them with. The prices I was finding were more like $15-$25 per fuse (low range and high range) and I ended up getting ones for about $10 and $22. In the end the two fuses cost me more than I paid for the multimeter on eBay. The prices are definitely bullshit.

author: MrPlacid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2010, 09:03:32 am
content: This is what happen when you buy a quality multimeter, you have to replace them with the original, rebadged, ripped-off fuses just to feel safe. Now, if it was some cheap multimeter, I'll probably throw in some cheap fuses. Heck, I'll probably uses fuses with lower amps to be on the safe side.Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on December 25, 2010, 01:46:40 amKiriakos, the one making money on these fuses are the multimeter companies. They buy your $0.15 fuses you make, use it in their products. Then they repackage the fuses and price them at $5 each. Totally not worth it starting your own factory. Sometimes, they make a deal with you to print their company's logo on it, too.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2010, 11:28:59 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on December 24, 2010, 03:02:51 amYou've not made any mention of the maximum breaking capacity which is also what you pay for with expensive fuses. If the short circuit current exceeds the breaking capacity then an arc may form, causing the meter to melt and catch fire.You should also note that it's harder to interrupt DC than AC and that most fuses are rated for 50Hz AC, not DC.So you could buy a cheap fuse which will only safely break 500A AC and blow up the meter when measuring an extra low voltage DC circuit such as a car battery or telecommunication system.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2010, 04:02:35 pm
content: Quote from: MrPlacid on December 26, 2010, 09:03:32 amI can not believe you ...Why ?Because every dump ass , who does 10X38 Fuses , he uses an pricing that looks that it was agreed under the table !! and the average Joe needs to pay an retails price starting from 2-3$ or Euro ..Even the slow-blow ones, have the same start up price , and those does not called as multimeter fuses.At the current market status (for all brands) , looks that they charge 2-3$ or Euro for slow-blow ,and the fast-blow goes double or triple price ( always retail ).And the funniest part ( multimeter makers for the EU camp ) they do not promote FUSE Packages at all .And one new and fresh question has just born.. What is the cost that GOSSEN Metrawatt asks from one consumer , in order to replace the fuses on the MetraHit ??We are aware about the Fluke pricing , lets compare it with the Germans !!I do not have the answer, and so , start working on finding it .

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2010, 04:22:08 pm
content: @ Hero999I do not get in to such theoretical subjects ...And any one who gets in the discussion by demonstrating flames and explosionsas proofs , its my enemy .Why ? Because the Fuses are primary protection , but not the only one .The leads of the multimeter it self , stands as Fuses too.I found "strong" (True 20A) multimeter leads withgreatdifficulty.So to use them with my analog Metrawatt multimeter, that does measurements up to 25A .And it looks that I have to remind you , that our problem !! are the cost of the440mAfuse ..If you manage to start a fire with just 0,5A you will be called as magician !!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2010, 05:02:02 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on December 26, 2010, 04:22:08 pmVery funny.Seriously, I suggest you put 150A through your 25A test leads whilst you're holding them and see how long it takes for your hands to be burnt to a crisp.QuoteAs an electrician you should know that it's not the current being measured but the maximum prospective short circuit current of the power supply. You could quite easily measure the current flowing through a 230V 60W incandescent lamp with a meter fused to 500mA but if the lamp shorts out many kA could flow and if the fuse isn't capable of safely breaking it you could be in trouble.Oh and 0.5A at 1kV is 500W which is more than enough power to start a fire.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2010, 06:42:22 am
content: yea yeaand 0.5A at 3kVis 1500W ... oh my I need a better multimeter !!Well if you need a better puzzle to train your mind , find out the SIBA pricing ,due the Metrawatt sales channel ..This will had more interest , than the above ..

author: qno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2010, 08:50:42 am
content: With fuses it is not so much the current but the voltage.When a fuse melts a plasma is formed around the point it melts. This plasma still conducts.The higer the voltage the longer this plasma exists. There is a big difference between AC and DC.There is one way to kill the plasma. Distance between the conductor as quickly as possible.This is why high voltage fuses are equipped with a spring or filled with sand.If your meter is specified for 1000V DC you need a lot of distance.Is the same for relay contacts often specified as follows:250 V AC 5A.30V DC 5A.When your are at altitude the problem is worse. Look for Paschen curve on google sor see here:http://www.teledynereynolds.com/product/1singlepin/other/pdfs/page42.pdfIf you have a CAT 3 meter (1000V) it is tested with voltage spikes of 8kV.When you fuse is open it should stay open at 8 kV.The market for CAT3 fuses is significantly smaller than the consumer market.Do not cut cost on your safety.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2010, 11:57:49 am
content: Current is also a factor in fuse and arc length.The Paschen curve only shows the voltage required to initiate a discharge when the current is zero. Due to the negative resistance of an arc, once struck it can travel a long distance even at low voltages; the higher the current, the lower the voltage required for an arc of a given length. This is why arc welding is performed at low voltages and high currents and interrupting high currents isn't easy.So a 10mm gap may need 30kV across it to form a plasma but once struck the voltage will rapidly drop as the current rises, for example if the current is limited to 50A, the voltage will be under 40V.http://www.arcadvisor.com/faq/dc_direct_current_arc.htmlThe situation is worse with DC because the current is not interrupted twice per cycle and if the load is inductive the high voltage back EMF will make striking the arc easier so a DC motor would be a difficult load to protect.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2010, 12:57:11 pm
content: Arcing is completely underestimated. Watch that video, this is just a 40 V, 25 A home-made arc lamp (no, it isn't me):And don't do this at home.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2010, 07:34:27 pm
content: Practically " if the shit hits the fan " = the chaos gets in to a multimeter .We have the Fuses to get burned + the PCB trace to get burned + the cable leads to get burned.Nice and impressive to the young ones, all those potential spark issues as subject.I own an welding machine , I inherit ate it from my father ..It took me years to push my inner fears away , and starting using it ..And I have start to do nice strong welding 's too .Now lets go back to Fuses , and to their pricing ..

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2010, 11:26:48 am
content: From today I own , lots of Buss fuses, and I did not lost the opportunity to play with my camera.As an simple observer , now that I have all the items at hand ,I have noticed this simple construction details,about :1) BUSS VS Others ..2) BUSS VS BUSS ( Made in Mexico )1)BUSS VS Others ..All those Non BUSS con-testers (included and the American SIBA) ,they use as outer isolating material something easily described asporcelain..The porcelain called isolator , its mainly used in everything that called as industrial type Fuse .From the smallest ones like the common class fuses , until the slow blow household fuses,or the industrial one , of any type or size .The BUSS looks that uses something different , that I can only guess that looks like ,like Kevlar or synthetic glass fibers , that forms one type of cloth.How that helps in any way , I do not know , the only that its obvious are that this method makes the fuses thinner .About weight it works against , the porcelain type looks 7 grams ( same weight both DF and Legrand ) ,and the BUSS 11A are 8 grams, and smaller BUSS 440mA its 6 grams.2)BUSS VS BUSS ( Made in Mexico )If it is about cost cutting , why they do not made both in Mexico ?From another prospective, looks that the made in USA fuse , costs less retail.I do not know who had the idea to sell fuses by the Amperes that they cut ,its an prototype idea this type of marketing " worldwide" = stupid at list !!I am aware that no matter what I say , I am not going to change the route of this marketing ,I am an single unit , but today people start WEB type petitions so demonstrate their opinion and complain,even for more ridicules reasons than that.attached pictures for all ...

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2010, 03:14:06 pm
content: How much did those fuses cost and what's the specification i.e maximum voltage, current rating, breaking capacity and speed?

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2010, 08:22:50 am
content: Just check the other page everything are pictured .