Anti-Drone Airport Defence Systems - Crowdsourcing project. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 07:08:28 pm
content: I'd like to crowd fund about $20M to develop a Defence system for an airport. Anyone want to contribute 10 bucks.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 07:20:32 pm
content: No. A shotgun will fix the problem in a much cheaper way.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 07:36:17 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on December 21, 2018, 07:20:32 pmonly if you can get quite close

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 08:10:08 pm
content: While the news channels are telling us that it could be controlled fromthousandsof miles away, ministers think it's someone standing by the fence.It's OK they've found a solution, patrol the perimeter with a dog.https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video_thumb/Du7tjIMX0AApYkw.jpg

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 08:35:22 pm
content: Just buy this.Give it some weird acronym, and the airports are drone free!

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 08:43:49 pm
content: Geo-fencing was supposed to prevent incidents like this from occurring.The press is saying the Gatwick perpetrator is a "genius" or "PhD" and disabled it, or is using another RF band for comms.I'm not sure how another method (other than brute force) could be crowdsourced.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 09:41:13 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on December 21, 2018, 07:20:32 pmThey had snipers standing by but they said they did not want to shoot because of the damage a falling bullet or drone might cause.I do not understand how they could keep Gatwick closed for so long. The way I see it it is well worth the risk.I suppose they could have hunting drones equipped with nets. Or just trained falcons.They could have just have a regular helicopter fly over it and the wash would wipe it out of the sky. It seems they just were not prepared.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 09:51:53 pm
content: To stop the drone one first has to find it. This might be practical high enough in the air, but once landed or flying very low this gets really tough. For the airport it is already a problem if there is a good chance that there is a drone sitting there somewhere near the landing strip that could at any moment come up to interfere with a plane.Though I don't like the Idea very much, something like an improved radar to detect a drone up in the air and lots a cameras / microphones on the ground in and near the airport could be a way to at least find the drone and maybe follow back the tail where it came from.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 10:01:19 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on December 21, 2018, 08:35:22 pmBDV, Boeing Drone Vaporizer

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 10:13:09 pm
content: If I were British I would bewatching other, non-Gatwick news very closely.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 11:16:02 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on December 21, 2018, 10:13:09 pmWe've had to do that for years!https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Du-L8jLWkAAC3cd.jpg

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 11:25:15 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 21, 2018, 08:43:49 pmGeo Fencing was and will only ever prevent 'commercially made' drones with Geo Fencing installed in their systems from going into those areas. There is plenty of non geo fenced UAV's available off the shelf or diy.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 11:48:58 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 21, 2018, 08:43:49 pmCompared to the vast majority of the press, pretty much anyone is a genius...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 11:51:22 pm
content: OK so how much damage could a drone actually do - maybe take out one engine at best.Aren't planes designed to be safe if an engine fails, as an engine failure could happen at any time...?

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 12:02:18 am
content: An engine failure at the start or landing could be rather severe. It also depends on how the engine fails - the simple defects just turn down the engine. The hard one can cause parts of the engine fly around. A hard object is prone to cause the nasty type of failure.The drone might be a little harder than the typical bird so it could do damage to more than the engines.The other point is hitting the cockpit, damaging the window. Also hitting the radar dome at the front could cause some nasty damage.There was a film around showing that even damage to the wing is possible. The Concorde accident was due to a part (lost from another plane) not larger than some drones and at a relatively low speed during start.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 12:02:48 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 21, 2018, 11:51:22 pmyeh, afaiu losing an engine on takeoff is worst case and still once past the point where the takeoff can be aborted the plane must able to take off on one engine

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 12:21:57 am
content: Please stop suggesting birds too. Falcons weigh less than all but the small end of Drones the blades of which even these will damage if not kill it - dumb idea!Assume a current medium drone of 2kg mainly plastic or carbon with a few lumps of 30mm diameter motor for metal. and a plastic bag full of lithium and paper. No more risk I suspect than a bird strike allowed for by testing Pelicans and some other waders are 5kg.Largish Drone 5kg speeds approaching 100km/hr is some cases. Assuming and this is a big ask the drone hits an engine or cockpit window dead on it is then lumps of metal weighing about 4-500g 50mm across. Chances are there will be damage if not loss of one engine, windows most likely will deflect it.Large Drone 10-20kg hits an engine BOOM and likely would damage a wing, fuselage or even take out a cockpit window.Image below is 15kg of off the shelf commercial Non Geofenced Drone 107km/hr top speed and with a double load of batteries instead of the camera 30 minute flight time. About 1.5m across Here Falcon here come get dissected by me.All of this assumes the intent is to cause harm instead of just being a PITA for reasons....If you want to take out a plane you don't use a drone you take your 50 cal Rifle and scope and throw high speed precision lead at it. Or a Bomb or ....

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 01:01:32 am
content: The larger and heavier a dron the less maneuverable it is. And what is the point of putting a second battery instead of the camera if that reduces maneuverability even more. Without a good guidance system the operator will just be taking chances of hitting the target even a large target. And you need to Deliver that monster to the area first. Speed has little value if maneuverability is shit.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 01:18:02 am
content: Because the camera shown above is NOT used to fly it with. One of intended uses of that drone is high grade aerial photography or video or whatever payload you like.The little blob on top of these is the flight camera, no geo fencing and way over 100km/hr.https://youtu.be/nBjsxj4d4Jw

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 01:18:36 am
content: That 500m max range claim I read in the news is ridiculous. First of all you can use cellular network to control it from any place in the world (with video feedback). Or simply use long range low speed transfer like LoRa. Secondly it can be autonomous.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 01:28:15 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 21, 2018, 11:51:22 pmIf engine failure happens during takeoff or landing, it may easily cause plane crash. Pilots likely won't have enough leeway to react properly.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 01:28:25 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 22, 2018, 01:18:36 amDrones don't use Cellular of any sort for transmission from Craft to Ground. The Data rates mean Lora is a no go. Unless you just want to send a go command to a preplanned route.Existing commercial drones technologies on 2.4 or 5.8 get 5km+ comfortably. Ranges well over that are done with some added gear 100km+ is achievable with off the shelf parts. And if you go custom then some mates of mine were involved in crossing the Atlantic a few years ago.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 01:31:12 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on December 22, 2018, 01:28:25 amWho said it shall be untampered off the shelf drone. Just for flying above trees and landing in known place, transferring coordinates is enough.https://wiredcraft.com/blog/drone-copter-uav-4g-network

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 01:37:48 am
content: Cellular can be easily switched off of blocked or traced so what sort of dummy would go on a public grid if they intend mischief?As has been pointed out in the various threads they don't need transmission any more than simple GPS access to do what they are doing if it were a one shot flight with limited chances of reflying. Use a clockwork timer to start it for all it matters.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 01:41:48 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on December 22, 2018, 01:37:48 amNot that easy, if you care about consequences in populated area. Though RF countermeasures would be my first choice. Not easy to trace either if drone operator did a tiny bit of homework. And again, it can be fully autonomous and nothing of that would work except tampering with GPS, Glonass, Beidou. Which again is not that easy if not in close proximity.

author: GigaJoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 02:33:56 am
content: I'm right, that GPS drone management soft has an embedded no flight map. Means drone that spotted near airport are modded to flight over ?How about kapron net - shooting to the drone ?

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 02:50:09 am
content: Quote from: GigaJoe on December 22, 2018, 02:33:56 amThis is a media driven myth if you like. DJI as the worlds biggest producer of drones has Geo Fencing in it's core software and craft they can also be tracked by the DJI tracking units. However not all Drones are DJI and not all other drones have Geo Fencing on their software. Apart from the basic end of the market most other mid to high end ones generally use a base map as part of their software but can be with or without the Geo Fence part.The Drone sitting beside me on the bench is a DJI Mavic Pro, currently stock but if I hooked it up to the PC and played with it no Geo Fencing restrictions. So it is a software/firmware hack of that software in that case. I won't be doing it btw as Geo Fences are not a bad thing IMO as they can also warn of temporary airspace issues.If as I suspect this is a tweaked bare airframe made from readily available component parts it will be running nothing proprietary in the way of software and most likely based on something likehttp://ardupilot.org/platform I have previously linked. So even if they find or down it nothing much is traceable by way of serial numbers or on board data. Fingerprints DNA and maybe import tracking might help but I doubt it.

author: TheNewLab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 03:47:48 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 22, 2018, 01:28:15 amCorrect, even small birds may cause damage. Anyone notice that spiral part at the center of jet engines?heard the news too. My first thought was Arduino...Then saw post about a code hack.Not getting caught? fingerprints? DNA sample?

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 03:57:42 am
content: If it was a DJI product that was hacked and they got the air frame but not the pilot it will be serial numbered and much more traceable than one cobbled together from bits. This would leave only DNA Prints etc .... as a way to trace the dickheads if not caught in the act.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 03:11:39 pm
content: If I wanted to make anti-UAV weapon I'd make cheap disposable hunter-killers which shot a bunch of weighted strings at it in close range ... net has too much drag at speed. Put a parachute in the hunter-killer, if the UAV gets tangled with it that's ideal. If it's just disabled and goes to ground, oh well that's probably good enough.The problem is detecting the UAVs and guiding the hunter killers. You'd need a distributed grid of detectors, working mostly optical in good conditions and using mm wave when there's low cloud cover or fog. There is alreadyresearchinto stuff like this and I can imagine there will be a lot more funding now.

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 03:49:21 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 21, 2018, 11:51:22 pmit isn't just engines, though that would be bad enough.1:50 in or so, note this test was as a much lower speed than a large commercial plane on landing or take-off plus a smaller off-the-shelf drone. Given the damage to the battery pack on impact, and the fuel tanks in the wings, a ruptured LiPo from the drone inside the wing could be quite an event.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 04:12:35 pm
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on December 21, 2018, 07:08:28 pmPossibly, but only after you have told me how you will prove and demonstrate that it works, and I agree those tests are sufficient

author: Jan Audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 04:18:30 pm
content: Quote from: beanflying on December 22, 2018, 01:28:25 amWhat kind of battery has your mates drones then ?

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2018, 07:37:16 pm
content: Quote from: Jan Audio on December 22, 2018, 04:18:30 pmNot all 'drones' run batteriesModified 20cc 4stroke model aircraft engine on spark ignition instead of glow plug for better efficiency.