@JLCPCB - Enabling option for 2 (two) PCB orders. Prototyping waste management. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 08:47:43 am
content: Although addressed to JLC the message is valid for everyone. Looking for this idea to be validated widely too, perhaps...Background:I am recently designing a whole lot of reference circuits for later drag & drop usage into larger projects. Some of those circuits are as simple as e.g. an analog switch with several debouncing techniques. I test and optimize those circuits, sign-off, tech document them, bag-up & keep one physical ref/pcb, and save the schematic into my "\Reference Circuits\" folder. This is obviously a process of my journey into being new to electronics!The Problem:Each and every time I order from JLCPCB, and I do quite a lot each time (10~15 pcbs per order), I receive 5pcs of each. That's cool and not a problem however in my case I'm deeply embarrassed to admit that a full 4pcs eventually goes to the bin. Sent out little over 100 pcbs to the local recycling dumpster this weekend when cleaning-up the shopI am NOT trying to save myself a dollar here, I'll happily pay the same price for 2 (two) PCBs if that option is given. Rather, I'm trying to save the environment and hopefully bring-in ideas for JLCPCB to maximize their profit in the process -I mean why not... they are doing such a great job for us after all.Open to better ideas, always! [rant_over, ty, have a nice day]

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 09:22:50 am
content: Quote from: Mecanix on January 13, 2021, 08:47:43 amno imho it only valid to jlcpcb and how they process things. if its good idea for them, they will listen to you alone. if not, you can bring petition with 1000 signatures and see if its still a good idea for them, but it will not prohibit them from rejecting the idea. 5pcs for $2 is unthinkable cheap already esp with large company with 5 factories across China. yeah it will be good if they can provide even further reduced 2-3pcs @ $1, but its their right to accept or not, $2 is the best offer so far already on planet earth.ps: my recent order i punched for 10pcs because i "hope" the design is "right" so i dont have to pay another shipping cost for extra boards. but if its wrong we have to accept the consequence and manage it. if you cant bare it, maybe the more conventional method is more bareable? (1) diy toner transfer prototype pcb? (2) breadboard? for me, i'll more appreciate at saving my time which sending to china pcb fab will do. trashing some broken designed pcb doesnt take much of time. if its unbearable, maybe i should learn to reduce my mistake in design process, one of it is doing uncertain or small circuit on breadboard first? ymmv.edit: oh now i get your "no need reduce price" point. but then it subject to their workflow, maybe they process boards in 5-10pcs large pcb per batch run? splitting it may further increase the manufacturing cost.ask them.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 10:54:38 am
content: I agree with this and in fact would be happy to pay the exact same price for 2 as I do for 5! I hate all the waste of unused prototype PCBs that build up in my office.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 12:29:09 pm
content: I think they already did this . some times ago the base price was for 10 pcb. and today you can have 10 or 5 pcb for the same base price.just ask then to allow 2 pcb should be easy.

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 02:24:12 pm
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on January 13, 2021, 12:29:09 pmDidn't know about the 10pcb down to 5 pcb. Good initiative... imagine having 9 pcb 'left-over' when the 1(one) you originally ordered validates fine. Makes for some good old bin rampage!Not good enough though, need a huge fat checkbox for qty 2 (two), pink color & bold text. I did tried as you've recommended and left a note in the bottom text field requesting for two pcb of each design to be sent out and yet received 5 of each as advertised. That was a tot of 60 pcbs... I've just used 12 at the end. Guess where the remaining 48 went :/

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 03:17:54 pm
content: Easy: don't!PCBs are easy enough to make, in one-offs, when fine pitch breakouts aren't necessary.Typical construction methods:- Get a stack of two sided copper clad, preferably 1 or 2oz. Cheap on eBay or etc.- Cut to size with tin snips or a metal shear, or saw with a hacksaw, rotary tool or saw (there are specific blades/discs for fiberglass material, but carbide toothed blades work in a pinch; steel teeth work, but wear rather quickly).- Optionally, sand the edges with wet-or-dry (bonded SiC) sandpaper. Sand the face(s) with Scotchbrite, or steel wool or sandpaper or etc.- Mark out the basic layout with pencil, or diagram it on paper or CAD, etc.- With a utility blade or rotary tool, cut out the traces/pads/islands as needed.+ Bonus: use a CNC engraver to do it straight from the CAM file. Difficulty is getting it mounted flat enough for good results, may take some dialing in.Optional: with the help of paste flux, tin the whole board. Tinning makes it easier to solder subsequently, and it won't tarnish. Downside: the surface is more uneven.- Alternately, cut up a bunch of chits, and glue or solder them onto a (blank) copper-clad base board. Also known as "Manhattan style" as multilayer structures can be built up like skyscrapers.Both methods (cut out or stack-up) are useful for THT and SMT parts. THTs, you'll be SMT-ing anyway; use the opportunity to form leads into useful directions. Use axial resistors as jumpers (or their cut-off leads). No need for a super tight layout (I mean, assuming the design doesn'trequiresuch in the first place), you have plenty of space to route jumpers above and around everything.I find the construction process takes less time than doing a full EDA project, for most one-offs. But, going from just qty 1 to 2, the economy drops off...rather quickly. Or for larger projects (100s of components). The chance of simply getting something wrong, or simply taking up a ton of space, goes up quickly with component count. Plus you're probably needing thousands of connections, and fine pitch components, and screw wiring up all that noise by hand.Here's a typical example, a discrete gate driver circuit. Input on the right, a few transistors form a differential comparator, then level shifting, then buffering and driving to the left:I've also drilled a few vias, which are filled in with solid wire bits and blobbed with solder on both sides. So, they aren't too easy to see... (For Manhattan style, vias aren't too useful as you always have an unbroken ground plane at the bottom!)And, if all this sounds like way too much effort -- that's fine too, the cost of protos is basically nonexistent. You sink way more time into drawing up CAD, than spend on buying it. Even if you discount your labor nearly to zero. Wasteful perhaps, but it's cheap material, not like we're running out of it any time soon. Or, hey, welcome to capitalist consumerism, right?...Tim

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 05:10:19 pm
content: i'm not sure if anyone here will go directly to fab house order without mastering the diy dead bug and the smell of ferric chloride and the broken drill bits. i remember though iirc one new guy from the block came and stated he is not good at soldering, but at the same time designing a complete pcb circuit and hire a factory to do board assemblyhe must be the real ee engineer!

author: ledtester
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 05:31:30 pm
content: QuoteSounds like they are useful circuits.How about selling the extras or giving them away to a local electronics club or another young person with a budding interest in electronics.

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 05:56:07 pm
content: Quote from: ledtester on January 13, 2021, 05:31:30 pmGood idea, too late for this time but to be considered for when I'll end up with another 100 boards all over. Starting to have a fairly nice collection of mixed analog and digital; fair amount of STM's F4 F7 H7, automation controls, HMI, signal conditioning, wireless comm, filters, etc etc... potentially some schematic & hardware material the local college could hack with. Thanks for that idea!

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 06:20:13 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on January 13, 2021, 03:17:54 pmI graduated from an Xacto knife to using a small "gouge" (something like this:https://www.amazon.com/Woodworking-Carving-Chisels-Mallet-Carving-carving/dp/B0876T9H7R)Now that I have a CNC mill, I do more complicated boards (single-sided, large geometry) on that. But anything with 0.5mm pads, or double-sided (beyond simple ground-plane), I get PCBs fabbed. I hand-solder, or paste-stencil and reflow in my modified toaster-oven. Anything beyond prototype quantities I will be sending out for fab/assy.I don't do enough 1st-gen prototyping that the extras from a 5-board fab add up to much, I have a small box for those and it's a long way from being full.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 09:51:36 pm
content: Are you sure these circuits cant be built on a breadboard temporarily?Or protoboard if you want to solder it up:https://www.elecfreaks.com/blog/post/protoboard-revolution-flower-protoboard.htmlAnyway, most likely JLC stack 5 boards in their CNC drilling machine, so it would not make much sense to go lower than that. But it does not hurt to ask as mentioned.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 10:14:46 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 13, 2021, 09:51:36 pmI think you may have hit the nail on the head! If the prototype boards are stuffed into the spare space on a production batch panel then there would be no way to do less than a multiple of whatever the production stackup is.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on January 13, 2021, 03:17:54 pmThis might be an option when doing a single, random proof of concept but the instant that part of the design is likely to be used in a production design there is no sense making a board manually. Playing with developer and etchant and drilling boards is definitely not something I miss!

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 10:32:26 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on January 13, 2021, 03:17:54 pmSure does. I mean, you are an expert so you can probably do this in your sleep. Me, on the other hand...

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 10:41:11 pm
content: another thing to think about with your boards if you are not going to be selling them is to use them for experimenting and testing.If I have a prototype board I'm sending in, I will often include a small test circuit or two that is unrelated to main purpose or I will try out a footprint for new connector or chip I am interested in. It saves money and potentially helps me avoid a wasted run downstream by working out the details.

author: JLCPCB Official
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 06:23:51 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on January 13, 2021, 09:22:50 amThe balance between environmental protection and technological and industrial development is always a topic worthy of our awareness. JLC is also very concerned it.5pcs MOQ setting is related to production management and material utilization rate for a factory. When the fixed number cannot be changed, we have done other things that are more conducive to environmental development：We choose high-quality raw materials to avoid substandard products. Also, JLCPCB provides environmentally-friendly solutions for assembly and for the surface finish (we provide LeadFree and ENIG options) so the JLC LeadFree products are fully RoHS (Restriction of Hazardous Substances) means our used material doesn't have Lead or Mercury or Hexavalent Chromium, etc which are restricted materials. So it all up to the customer to choose to make his board RoSH or not.Moreover, if customers don't remove the extra copper from the PCB designs by creating some copper areas then this will prevent JLC from dropping much copper as waste. Thank you, sir. Let me have a chance to share our ideas for environmental protection.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 07:19:56 pm
content: Was kind of stupid...Рeople talk about the economy of materials, and you answer in the lead.No matter how good the materials are, 2 boards instead of 5 will always load nature less.People agree to buy 2 boards from you for the same price. Just add 2 quantities to the options and send them in a mail envelope.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 08:40:43 pm
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on January 19, 2021, 07:19:56 pmThey put like 70 designs on a sheet and make 5 sheets. It doesn't matter if you want only one - 5 boards are already made and there's no way back.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 08:51:00 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on January 19, 2021, 08:40:43 pmI am not an expert in PCB manufacturing, but I can assume that 5 sheets at a time are only used when drilling.Perhaps there is a way to group orders of 2 pcs on separate sheets.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 09:50:26 pm
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on January 19, 2021, 08:51:00 pmNo offense, but that's kind of the point.If they're drilling 5 panels at a time then I expect their whole process is set up for producing 5 panels. I'm sure doing less is physically possible but adds a lot of additional logistic complexity and I suspect wouldn't be likely to result in any cost saving for them or they would already be doing it!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 10:00:11 pm
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on January 19, 2021, 08:51:00 pmYou can do so but it affects way more than drilling, not to say drilling machine time is not free. Currently any quantity you can order is in multiples of 5. They won't complicate and make less efficient the whole process just to make 2 pieces of PCBs used to just to fill the gaps in panels where the rest makes actual profit.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 10:10:43 pm
content: Quote from: Mangozac on January 19, 2021, 09:50:26 pmIs it not possible to put three substrates instead of one when drilling? They send these things to us when they pack the stencil.Is drilling so important that it is more expensive than all other processes and consumables?

author: retiredfeline
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 10:21:55 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on January 19, 2021, 08:40:43 pmThis.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 10:43:05 pm
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on January 19, 2021, 08:51:00 pmThey achieve low price and fast turnout by taking orders which are all the same - green HASL 1.6 mm thick. If you want something else, the price goes up and waiting time gets longer. This is because they have to wait for other orders of the same kind to fill the whole sheet. It would be the same problem if they had to group by the number of pieces ordered.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 11:05:44 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on January 19, 2021, 10:43:05 pmThis is true. But to start, I would just enter the option in the order, change nothing in production, send 5 pcs or leave 3 for recycling, to study the demand for this option. I think that JLCPCB has enough orders to fill a sheet of any configuration, or they do one sheet each day anyway, even if it is not filled.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 11:13:18 pm
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on January 19, 2021, 10:10:43 pmYou are so fixated on drilling that forget thatevery PCBon those panels then needs to be produced in that exact quantity in every step of the process. And that your cheap PCB is a loss leader nobody cares about. It's there for advertising proposes, not making profit.QuoteMore like have tons of additional waste you need to dispose of somehow.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 11:21:27 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 19, 2021, 11:13:18 pmIf you read carefully, I assumed that the only operation where all 5 sheets are used at the same time is drilling. All other operations are performed independently for each sheet. Removing 3 sheets from the stream is probably not difficult at all.I also find it amusing to watch people who live in countries where they claim to care very much about the environment talk about the difficulties of changing the production process, which is produced by excess. Don't you care about the ecology of China?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 11:32:51 pm
content: That is actually a good point, they can recycle the extras locally.But like wraper says, at the end of the day its more work for them, so I could not see them offer this without charging a fee. and ultimately the FR4 epoxy glass are not recycled, only the copper is.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 11:35:21 pm
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on January 19, 2021, 11:21:27 pmIs it hard to understand that then you have different types of panels which need different masks for trace exposure, different masks for solder resist, different silkscreen.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2021, 12:00:35 am
content: Quote from: wraper on January 19, 2021, 11:35:21 pmThe number of copies does not affect the production of masks in any way. You just apply it to 2 sheets, not 5.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 20, 2021, 12:21:43 am
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on January 20, 2021, 12:00:35 amThen for the same amount of PCB produced you need to make way more of everything. Also you completely ignored what was said multiple times. Those small proto PCBs are just to fill the gaps between PCBs which actually bring profit.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2021, 12:54:57 am
content: Quote from: wraper on January 20, 2021, 12:21:43 amMore of everything (I understand this as stencils, photo templates) you need to spend in any case, but using this "more of everything" has a difference for 2 and 5 PCB: time, paint, reagents, processing, waste. Personally, I am not sure that JLCPCB places inexpensive PCBs in free spaces along with others on sheets that are then processed in batches of 5 pcs. Do you have such information? Are you reliably aware of the JLCPCB process? Do they use stencils or do the photo exposure directly? Do they use photoresist exposure or print with a printer, for example?And again: leave your sovok proletarian rage and attacks on the interlocutor. Imagine that: not all people are as great experts in all areas of knowledge as you are. If you lack patience and respect for other opinions, ignore them. Don't bother yourself and don't waste your time.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2021, 01:42:08 am
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on January 20, 2021, 12:54:57 am