Roll a ball horse race game 1970's electronics - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: matencio
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 03:36:04 am
content: I want to build the horse race derby game as shown in the pictures below. I have a little electronics knowledge but just can't figure this out. It's pre-computer so there aren't many people these days that can tell me what was used and how it was wired.Generally, the ball is shot up like a pinball, bounces around until it finds the slot, rolls through the slot hitting two or three switches of some type, which then advances the lighted horse on the board. I'm sure this is simpler than I think it is but I'm just lost.I know it used light bulbs behind the board which now would be LEDs. I'm thinking there is a counter that activates when the switch moves in each slot.It was a favorite of my mom's and mine when we went to the county fair every year. Mom's gone but I would love to build this for me and my kids and grand kids.This is an old carnival game and there's only one in existence.All help is appreciated. Thanks.

author: NottheDan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 03:48:41 am
content: You forgot the pictures. And what about it can't you figure out?

author: flynwill
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 03:57:15 am
content: The original would have used "stepping relays" (search EBay for that to find some examples), basically a mechanical counter, one for each "horse".The logic would be pretty easy to implement with an Arduino or similar, the challenge is going to be building the pin-ball tables.Do you remember the logic? I would assume that hitting the center column advanced your horse the quickest but by how much? Did hitting the outside columns move your horse backwards?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 03:01:16 pm
content: It's not really clear but it appears that there are 'pins' in the track and these probably activated switches. Anything similar will work as long as it can activate some kind of microswitch. You could build up leaf switches but that seems like a long way around. You might be able to use a photodiode to sense room light through a lens in the track. When the light goes out, add one.Given the switch closures, it remains to stuff them into a microcontroller, debounce them (one count per activation) and do whatever with the count. Once you have the count output, you can come up with a way to drive the lamps (4 line to 16 line decoder driving the lamp drivers?). I would try to use incandescent lamps. I might even use 120VAC and perhaps drive them with Triacs. There's something about incandescent lamps that appeals to me. I guess I don't like the harsh illumination of LEDs.Without a complete spec, it's pretty hard to say exactly which components but the broad brush should get you started.

author: matencio
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 05:48:28 pm
content: The pictures are there. I did forget them - duh. lol Thanks

author: matencio
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 06:17:21 pm
content: Hi there RSTOFER!,I can build the pinball part easily. I have that experience and the tools for it.I like the photodiode - light triggering the counter. Wouldn't have a clue how to set it up to use those as my electronic experience is limited but I can't learn if I don't do it so. That being said, I do like the old incandescent bulbs too but I remember how hot the game was from those. That's my only reason for not using them and I guess LED's can run on a DC current if I wanted to make this portable for a family get together. I have no idea what a Triac is (lol) but will look that up along with"stuff them into a microcontroller, debounce them (one count per activation) and do whatever with the count. Once you have the count output, you can come up with a way to drive the lamps (4 line to 16 line decoder driving the lamp drivers?)." I'm one of those self taught people. I'll figure it out if I have some kind of schematic.Thanks. I'll begin on this and looking up these things.MikeQuote from: rstofer on April 24, 2017, 03:01:16 pm

author: matencio
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 06:30:24 pm
content: Hi and thanks for replying. "I would assume that hitting the center column advanced your horse the quickest but by how much? Did hitting the outside columns move your horse backwards?"Well the center track has three mechanical counters so I'm going to assume each triggers the horse (light) to move forward one space each time the switch is activated. Center - Three switches - three lights, outer two - two switches, two lights and the horse doesn't move backwards. only one direction, though that would make it interesting to make it pause like the horse slowed down. The same could be accomplished using a single stepping relay in outside columns, two for second and fourth, three relays for the middle.I think this would lend itself well to an Arduino, which I have but have never used. I'm buying a Raspberry Pi 3B because so much more can be done with it. Of course, I have to learn to code it. I wonder if it's possible to use a single Arduino for several horses or would there have to be an Arduino for each horse? And, I wouldn't have a clue how to program it. I managed to get the LED to light up - lol, but that's as far as I got with it because I was teaching at the time. Feel free to help on this solution if possible. It doesn't have to be like the old game, I can make it look like it is but it can be current electronics inside. A modern and better solution.

author: matencio
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 06:32:39 pm
content: Pretty much the whole thing. or, how to modernize it to using a Raspberry Pi and components to operate the way this did back then. I'm a newbie and tinkerer but want to learn more that I have so much time now that I disabled. It sucks. But, what can I do, right?

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 07:59:19 pm
content: 1 single arduino would have the horsepower (ho ho) to run a whole row of those machines. The raspberry Pi will probably be more difficult to use than the Arduino. If you decide to use the infrared option, you just need a handful of components for each gate to build a simple beam break sensor. You can then wire each of these to an arduino gpio. Then once you have that, it'll be just a bit of programming to implement the game logic.

author: NottheDan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 08:27:22 pm
content: Quote from: matencio on April 24, 2017, 06:30:24 pmThat's what I gathered too. Simple contacts and a bonus step when hitting the centre column. Not to forget the two on the ball return. So either four or five steps with every ball (if we assume all pins properly connected and counting).Which sounds a bit too simplistic. Makes for a head-to-head race though, probably decided by who can feed their ball the quickest.Although, it might be that there are some other elements to it too. Like the rails to the columns spaced such that on certain bounces the ball may pass a trigger pin without activating it. Or triggering certain pins may lock out other payers' triggers from counting for a second or two.Quote from: matencio on April 24, 2017, 06:30:24 pmI'd say a Raspberry Pi is total overkill for this application. You could probably have the whole booth running on one, including music, light show, highscore and coin mechanism for all lanes. A single Arduino should be enough to run all the horses but you probably have to look around which one has enough I/O pins for whatever control scheme you decide upon.

author: matencio
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 08:28:59 pm
content: Quote from: Dubbie on April 24, 2017, 07:59:19 pmI like the horsepower bit.I have an Arduino Uno right now but don't have a clue how to implement it. I know what the GPIO is but not how to hook and and program it. Totally new to this but willing to give it a shot. Hell, it'll be fun. So what parts do I need. I have a bread board and the parts kit for an Arduino / Raspberry Pi. Resistors and the like. Do you know how to code the Arduino?Thanks

author: matencio
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 08:37:45 pm
content: Quote from: NottheDan on April 24, 2017, 08:27:22 pmThat's encouraging and I already have an Arduino Uno. I just have to figure out how to use it to make things. This sounds like the perfect thing to lear with it. How do I start? I have uploaded and programmed my Arduino to light the LED light project. That's as far as I got. It flashed and did what it was supposed to do. Work pulled me away and I never got back to it after that. Now I'm unemployed and have the time. Just don't know where to begin. I guess their website and look around for projects. This particular project is the one I want to do the most which is why I got the Arduino in the first place. Then everyone hyped the Raspberry Pi and I waited to see where the ashes fell. So, here I am.Any help with the Arduino would be great.Thanks.

author: matencio
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 08:41:11 pm
content: If it helps, I have used Eagle to make a schematic before. I'm new to it but have enough experience to create a simple schematic for prototyping a board. I'm missing important electronic knowledge. That's my biggest hurdle. Being 58, things are harder to learn at my age but I don't know how to stop learning. Just thought I'd throw that in there.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 09:10:05 pm
content: Hi matencio,What configuration do you intend to build? The whole installation for a carnival stall as shown in your photographs, i.e. 18 flipper tables to control 18 horses, plus the big light display? Or just a small single-player version? (Playing alone or maybe against a computer?)If I were to build this, for one or a small number of players, I would have a strong inclination to use actual stepping relays. They can be bought on ebay for $50 to $100 apiece; 25 positions seems to be a common version. Nothing like the clicking, clacking sound of an actual mechanical stepper!Add "real" switch contacts, and either light bulbs or LEDs to taste...On the other hand, if you want to build this for a larger number of players and actually deploy it for routine use, the stepping relays may become a cost and reliability challenge. In that case, a microcontroller-based implementation is probably the more pragmatic approach. You will need to add hard-wired multiplexing logic to read a large number of switches and drive an even larger number of LEDs, however!

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 09:19:13 pm
content: Basically the original electronics were based on electro mechanical pinnball machines.The switches on the board are called roll over switches and each switch would create an pulse to a solenoid connected to a forwarding stepper unti with reset. The nu ber of positions would equal the number of horse "steps" on the board till you won, so like about 25 in your picture.Pictures tell more then words and moving pictures ten times more then static pictures so take a look at this movie from 7 minutes onwards and you get a pretty idea how they made it back then.If you want to make it with modern electronics you indeed could go with a microcontroller but it could just as easy been done with cmos 4000 or ttl 7400 circuits, it is not that big a deal.For every player you need a discrete counter upto 25 positions for instance three johnson decade counters in series, a reset and a final position that will disable all counters so nobody can advance if already another player has won.But hey if you like uControllers you can also do it you just also need some binary to 25 decade decoder for the lights or some matrix ics.https://youtu.be/v0Q63AVnjEM

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 01:07:38 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on April 24, 2017, 07:59:19 pmThis is a great idea, better than mine. In the divider strips, install an infrared LED on one side and an infrared detector on the other side. Install as many pairs per track as necessary. Space them out such that the count sequence looks authentic.Without going to far down the rabbit hole, you need an IR LED and an IR photodiode. With a wee bit of wood work, these can be installed in the wood strip. I might cut the horizontal holes such that a piece of acrylic rod could be inserted to make the opening look nice. Forstner bit if possible. The rod can be quite large (3/8"?) and if a bit long, the LED can be mounted to a hole drilled in the rod.The dividers might need to be a bit taller - perhaps 1/2". If 1/4" rod is used, perhaps the dividers could be 3/8" if they are shaved down after the drilling.http://startrobotics.blogspot.com/2013/05/how-to-use-ir-led-and-photodiode-with-arduino.htmlDrill a hole for the wires to come in from the bottom of the divider and the acrylic rod to come in from the side.The acrylic rod could be transparent red if it makes things look better. Maybe 1/2" diameterhttp://www.delviesplastics.com/p/Colored_Extruded_Rod.htmlSince the inputs are the hard part of the project, it would be worth creating a mockup from the project linked above. A couple of sticks on a flat board and a ball to roll in from of the sensor assembly. It should be interesting and educational.It looks like the scoring is 3 points for the center slot and 2 points for each of the others. Here's a trick: Assume all of the photodiodes are ON and their outputs are low. As soon as a photodiode is blocked, its output will go high. So, we run each output into the anode of a 1N4148 diode and connect all of the cathodes together. This makes huge OR gate - any output going high, anywhere on the board, will provide an output headed to the Arduino and scoring is based on how many detectors there are in the slot. This input will be active high and quite brief. It may also need a pulldown resistor (10k?) to make sure it is pulled low. This only works if each detector is worth exactly 1 count. The center lane has 3 detectors, 3 counts. All the other lanes have 2 detectors, 2 counts. If this is not correct, some other scheme will need to be considered.This is a bit of an advanced topic but I would use an Interrupt On Pin Change for the single input. That way I wouldn't have to worry about other things going on and missing a count. In Version 1, I would just test the pin in the loop() function. If I ever had a problem of missing a count, the answer is Interrupt On Pin Change. This is a software thing and can be changed at any time.I don't know how many output lamps are on the track but it looks like 36. That is far more pins than the Arduino has so 3 each 4-to-16 decoders would work.We would need to discuss active high versus active low before selecting the decoder and that question would depend on the lamps and lamp drivers. Here is the datasheet for a typical active high decoder. The appropriate output goes high which would turn on a TRIAC, MOSFET or transistor (depending on the type of lamp).http://assets.nexperia.com/documents/data-sheet/74HC_HCT4514_CNV.pdf

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 01:41:14 am
content: Depending on your will, I would vote for a micro-controller approach. Detecting the ball sliding through slots is easy enough with a 'reflective' infrared detector as long as the ball isn't black, but, there may be unforeseen small consequences like a glitch or slow moving signal from the detector which may need to be filtered. The micro-controller gives you the opportunity to correct and adjust this via software instead of potentially adding resistors and caps lateron.For each ball machine, I would use 1 PIC (this is my preference, you may use any other micro-controller), communicating to a score board either in parallel, many wires, or serial (more than 1 way to encode do this), 2 wires, but you would need a master decoder for the score board. The second advantage to serial is that you can either create your own hardware score board device for the authentic look, or, send it to a small PC or Rasbery PI, with many serial ports and create a software display score board to be displayed on 1 or more large screen TVs.I like the IR reflective detector approach where I would place 1 below each channel, recessed in the wood slightly so there is never any contact with the ball protecting them, where the ball would roll through. I've attached 2 of the sensors I might use.

author: matencio
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 04:52:17 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on April 24, 2017, 09:10:05 pmI think I'm going with the second version using an Arduino Uno (hopefully I can figure out how to program it). I'm not building for 20 people, just four or maybe six. Small but I'd like to be able to increase the number if I changed my mind later - like from four to six or more. As I said, this is more for family to play on and me to learn about electronics and even the Arduino I have.As much as I would love those clanking, thumping step relays, the cost is prohibitive. So that makes the choice easy. The micro-controller-based implementation is intimidating for my lack of experience. Thanks, I think this is on the right path though.

author: matencio
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 04:57:02 am
content: Thanks so much. I think this is more along the lines I was wondering about. The old parts probably aren't easy to get anymore but I like knowing the Roll over switch and how it works. I'm going to watch the video and then post again if I have a question.

author: matencio
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 05:03:39 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on April 25, 2017, 01:41:14 amThanks Brian. Yes, I think a micro controller is the way to go with this project. I don't know anything about those but I can always learn. I have an Arduino Uno, do you think that would work as well as an Raspberry Pi 3B ? Greatly appreciate the assistance everyone here is giving. I have a lot to learn and grasp. Usually, the hardest things are usually the easiest, it just takes the right person (or people) to explain it. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you help. Thanks.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 05:16:24 am
content: Quote from: matencio on April 25, 2017, 04:52:17 amYou might want to have the Arduino play a .wav sound file equivalent to the sound of a mechanical machine adding up points. There should be a sound file around somewhere. It's easy! You have a certain number of bytes of sound that you send out to what is known as an R-2R ADC (analog to digital converter). These samples need to be timed out but that's pretty easy. I did a Halloween project where I had a skeleton rocking in a chair and snoring. Pretty cool...Maybe something like this, it's probably a better solution:https://www.adafruit.com/product/2341There are alternatives, search for 'arduino sound'

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 07:39:47 am
content: Personally i think the ir gate solution is over engineering for the given problem.Or you buy readt gates that are expensive. The ir diode you need to do the frequency modulation yourself but low enough that one diode is not visible by other detectors, the uC has to check continuously if the signal is missing(eg ball going though the lane and blocking sensor) naah too much hassle.Built upon 100 years of pinnball experience and use a rollover button, if you use a microswitch instead off a feather switch you're grandchildren will be playing the game.I personally indeed would make the scoring board and each playing field have its own cheap micro with rs485 in and out you can later add additional things as show who won. If one console fails (intra device wiring is always the bottleneck) you can still use the others etc. Etc. Besides you can add and built as many as you want later on if there are more (grand)children playing.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 07:27:00 pm
content: Yeah, personally I'd probably do a small micro per table with reflection ir sensing and something like rs232 or 485 between tables. But it all gets complicated fast for a beginner. I still would avoid mechanical switches as ir is just so much more reliable. I wouldn't put the sensor in the bottom of the track but in the side. Otherwise dirt and wear from the ball could affect your trigger thresholds too much.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 05:30:45 am
content: You've got a long road ahead when it comes to learning to program the arduino to implement something like this, but you've got a specific project in mind so that helps tremendously and I think this project is achievable so long as you stick with it for a bit. Start out lighting up some LEDs connected to IO pins, then blink them, then go from there. LEDs or incandescent, doesn't really make much difference, you can use transistors to control them and with shift registers you can control pretty much as many as you want, dozens or even hundreds, cross that bridge when you come to it.

author: abyrvalg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2017, 11:31:45 am
content: There is a more modern implementation of this game still in service - google "roll ball horse race".And a DIY topic on arduino forum:https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=434499.0