Yokogawa DLM6104 Mixed signal oscilloscope impressions - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Isaac000
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 08:59:02 pm
content: Note: This isn't some deep technical review, but I've not seen anything about Yokogawa's scopes, so hopefully these quickie impressions will be helpful to someone...We wanted to upgrade our scopes. Most of the ones we owned had 1.44" floppy drives, many with a broken channel or other problems. The usual contenders were in the running. Then one of our vendors dropped by with an offer for a demo scope. Yokogawa DLM6000 scope. For under $5k USD, practically fully loaded. I couldn't pass up the offer. Here's what we ended up with:Yokogawa DLM6104Key specs:1GHz bandwidth5 Gs/s (single), 2.5 Gs/s (all) sampling rate4 Analog Channels, 6.25 Mpoints memory each32 logic channelsSerial decode I2C, UART, SPI, CAN, LIN. Power supply analysis4 x 500 MHz passive probes2 x 250 MHz 8-bit logic probesThe scope is an older model, in fact, the manufacture date on it places its date of birth in 2007. But it did meet one of our key requirements in that it's got USB ports! (How else are we going to get data off it nowadays?) Plus the paper specs beats any of the new scopes in the similar price range by far, like the Keysight MSOX3000 series, Tek MDO3000, etc. I don't think it could not outright beat the Rigol or LeCroy/Siglent options, but it was close enough.I'm of the mind that comparing scopes these days is sort of like Chevy vs Ford. Both have their good & bad points but both will get you from A to B. There may be a specific feature that you're after, in which case, there's no substitute for actually testing the scope. But in general, you can get your work done with any scope. The best one is the one you feel most comfortable using.Random ImpressionsUnlike the new scopes, it's the old-style chunky, deep box. But it still has a reasonably sized 8.4" display at 1024x768. More than reasonable, it's got the best resolution in this (reduced) price range and the screen size is only significantly beat by the LeCroy/Siglent. Size & weight-wise, it's not that bad really, especially pitted against our old LeCroy WavePro 950 or a Tektronix TDS 544. It's just not the tall, slim style that most scopes seem to have nowadays. For such an old unit, it looks practically new and everything is still solid.Boot time is reasonably fast (it doesn't run Windows!), it's around the 10-15s mark. (The LeCroy beat it by a few seconds).Fan noise! One of my pet peeves and a big reason I put the Rigol down at the bottom. I've had those before and it was LOUD. Maybe not quite as bad as the WavePro. Thankfully the Yokogawa is much better. I've got a new BK AWG next to it and it's louder than the DLM6000. Sure, for some people it doesn't matter, but it bothers me and I've had cases where the ability to listen for the noise of the power circuits that were about to fail was quite helpful.Usability: I've used everything from 1950's era Tektronix scopes to the latest models, Tek is probably the one I've used the most, followed by HP/Agilent/Keysight. I've also had a chance to get my hands dirty on LeCroy & Rigol equipment. I would say (and this is my subjective opinion only), LeCroy's never made sense to me. Even with the last 3 years on the WavePro, every time I still feel like I'm fighting with the scope. Can't say why. Rigol never impressed me either. This being the first time with the Yokogawa? Absolute pleasure. Nearly everything felt quite intuitive, haven't had to break out the manual yet. The only complaint I have is that the horizontal & vertical scale controls are the small knobs under the rather large knobs dedicated to horizontal delay and vertical offset. Not enough to make me angry :-) but seems opposite to every one else and not intuitive. Which function is the "primary" one you use most?There are lots of little nice touches, like the way the cursors can snap to the signal edges or how a "clean" display can still overlay some useful stats of the signal on the side, the "print" hard key is easily re-configured to save a file instead and it's got a little indicator showing which mode it is in. Just a bunch of minor stuff here and there which make me feel quite pleasant about using this scope. It's early days yet, but my rankings put this near the Agilent, which is just ahead of the Tektronix scopes I've used.The mixed signal functionality is usable. The screen is big enough, especially if I bus the inputs together, I can fit 2-4 buses and still look at a couple of analog waveforms. No, it isn't a replacement for a full logic analyzer, but it'll do. Surprisingly, it seems happy to let me have all 4 analog channels + 32 logic at the same time. For some reason I thought I lose a channel for each 8-bit pod I plug in, but nope!Seems quite responsive, even when I turn on FFT (on some scopes I've tried, it feels like it slows significantly, like the LeCroy). I'd probably have to do a side-by-side to be sure, but at least it is not worse than anything I remember. Those of you looking for waveform update numbers, I think it is quoting 25,000 waveforms/s/ch @ 2.5kpts, but another part of the spec quotes 400ns dead time and equivalent of 2.5M waveforms/sec. I'll leave it for the marketing guys to sort that out.On paper, the old WavePro 950 should match this quite easily with the same 1GHz bandwidth and up to 16GS/s (single channel) acquisition and in-the-ballpark memory depth, larger screen. It even supposedly has a separate PowerPC processor for signal processing. However, side-by-side, the DLM6104 feels much faster, more responsive and just feels like it is somehow more capable. The waveform display seems slow, low-res and just seems to be lacking detail/information that I can see on the DLM6104. I do have a couple of speed related complaints, i) when switching the time base, there seems to be an awfully long pause before some relays switch and the display becomes active again and ii) the speed is in saving data to USB drive is really slow. Compared to a reasonably new Tek or Agilent doing the same thing, it was go-for-a-coffee slow for some acquisitions. Not sure why.Overall I'm quite happy with it, especially at this price point. As a first experience with Yokogawa, it certainly leaves a good impression. I would certainly consider a DLM2000 next time for a basic scope (the quote I got for a 4-ch, mixed signal scope was about 5-10% less than Keysight or Tek equivalent). And for a personal scope? If I could find a used Yokogawa for cheap, it would definitely be on the list.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 09:23:50 pm
content: Would have been nice to include some photos. Both from the scope itself, the buttons, the user interface, and some actual screenshots about specific measurements to get a feeling about the menu structures and the cursor placements, etc.Screenshots about protocol decoding, and logic analyzer measurements would be nice too

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 10:53:37 pm
content: Yeah this post is lacking scope pronNice specs though.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 09:15:06 am
content: Quote from: Isaac000 on May 29, 2015, 08:59:02 pmNice review, thanks for taking the effort!QuoteThat's pretty old for a "ex-demo" scope, though.QuoteWell, the WavePro 900 Series is pretty old (came out in 1999) while the DM6104 came out around 2005. When the WP900 was current it *was* one of the most powerful scopes (probably *the* most powerful scope) on the market, and there are lots of things a WP900 can do the DLM6k and many modern scopes can't, but the WP900 was never made for a high waveform update rates.Also, the WavePro 900 has a 10.2" 640x480 (VGA) display so naturally it will look less detailed as the smaller (8.4") 1024x768(XGA) display of the Yokogawa.But it's not surprising when a scope from 2005 beats one from 1999 in some areas. But then, the DM6104 only does 2.5/5GSps, compared to the 8/16GSps on the WP900, so it has to process a lot less data. The DLM also has only 6.25Mpts memory while the WP900 can have up to to 64Mpts/Ch (depending on the options), and filling 64Mpts even at 16GSa/s take longer than filling 6.25Mpts at 5GSa/s. Turn down the sample memory size on the WP950 and you'll see how the waveform update rate goes up.In addition, no-one in its right mind would pay $5k for a WavePro 950 these days, even $2k are probably stretching it, so a $5k scope should be expected to be superior.QuoteThe DLM6k only has USB 1.1 ports, and these are generally pretty slow. That's the case with most Yokogawas that use VxWorks.QuoteI've seen and used Yokogawas on a few occasions (including a DL6154), and they really do make nice scopes (although they are pretty much aimed at power electronics design), and I certainly don't want to sour your new purchase, but even if I needed a MSO I'm not sure I would have spent anything close to $5k on a DLM6104 from 2007. 1GHz bandwidth is nice but the low 5GSps sample rate and the small memory are pretty limiting (and even the 5GSa/s are interleaved so four channel sampling is 2.5GSps only). Also, the max waveform update rate is 25k wfms/s which is pretty low for a scope that came out in 2005 (even the WP900 can do to around 12k wfms/s).Just to give you an idea what $5k buys you these days, I paid that much for a WavePro 7300A (made in 2008) last year. This is a 3GHz scope with 20GSps sample rate (10GSps in 4 ch mode), 48Mpts memory, touch screen, USB 2.0, up to 250k wfms/s, and including all the options that are available for this scope (which includes serial decode for a wide range of protocols inc. USB 3, Fibre Channel, CAN, SAS and SATA and so on). A bit later, another member (Tunersandwich) bought a WaveRunner 64MXi (600Mhz 5/10GSps 25Mpts 1.25M wfmx/s MSO) with all options for roughly under $6k. With a $5k budget there are also Agilent MSOX3ks and MSO5ks/7ks in reach. I'm sure there are other options as well.Compared with what there's out there for $5k, a 8yr old DLM6104 doesn't strike me as a very good deal, unless you really something specific in these Yokogawas (i.e. the 32bit logic inputs).

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 09:23:31 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on May 29, 2015, 09:23:50 pmTry this:http://www.yokogawa.co.jp/ftp/dist/ks/eusers/dl/odehj/im/BUDLM6000_00E_020.pdf

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 09:27:56 am
content: Cool screenshots! Thanks for the link!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2015, 04:09:44 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 01, 2015, 03:34:38 pmYokogawa has certainly some of the nicest non-Windows scopes. The problem is finding one in good condition and with the right options (it's nearly impossible to retrofit options at reasonable cost later on), which narrows down the selection. A least from here in the UK, Japan prices are still very high, and on top of that there's expensive shipping plus VAT and customs fees. For a scope like the DLM6104 I'd probably pay around $3k delivered, as anything higher simply makes it unattractive compared to what else is out there on the market.QuoteI never got the complaints about shared controls. One of my two scopes has shared controls (LeCroy WaveRunner 64Xi), the other one separate controls (the WavePro 7300A). I've no problem with either of them.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 01:43:34 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 01, 2015, 04:09:44 pmThe aspect I find a bit annoying on my DS1054Z's shared controls is that the same four buttons are used to select which channel to control, and to toggle channels on/off in the display. And the indicator LEDs next to the control knobs only show which channels are active on the display, but do not tell you which channel is currently controlled by the knobs.So you either have to glance at the bottom of the display before turning the knobs, to check which channel they currently control, or press the channel selection button of choice before turning the knobs -- and risk that you unintentionally toggle that channel off, if it was already selected.How do other scope manufacturers implement this? Separate buttons for knob and screen activation per channel? Additional indicator right next to the knobs which shows which channel they currently control?

author: slurry
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 04:19:49 pm
content: looks good...and looks very similar to Hameg HMO-series, are they made by Yokogawa perhaps?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 04:27:30 pm
content: Quote from: slurry on June 02, 2015, 04:19:49 pmNo, Rohde & Schwarz produces all their scopes themselves.

author: Isaac000
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 06:35:21 pm
content: Sorry, no pix for everyone. A bit busy at work here and I figure everyone can search for the datasheet themselves, if they were curious!Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on May 30, 2015, 09:15:06 amI didn't look too hard for LeCroy's, but maybe you can share your sources! We went hunting for old Tek & Agilents with similar specs and they are no where close to $5kUSD. (We are part of very large corporation, so purchasing off individuals on eBay is not a very feasible option for us based on the rules we have to follow). Anything with the specs of the DLM6104 would have been significantly more.At any rate, the manufacture date of the scope isn't so important to me. I've had a chance to play with the latest MSO3000T and equivalent Tek and I don't find this old scope to be really much different (other than the slow USB).

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 08:10:26 pm
content: This looks like a really nice scope. If I was in the market for an upgrade it would probably be my first choice. Nice specs, it's not running Windows, and the price isn't too bad. Although it does seem to lack in the waveforms /s. Where Agilent just craps on everyone with their 1m waveforms rate.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 08:54:47 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on June 02, 2015, 08:10:26 pmDo they really? The LeCroy WaveRunner Xi does 1.25M wavefrms/s, and this scope came out in 2006. The later WaveRunner 6zi still offers 1M waveforms, and this scope came out in 2009 if I remember correctly.Rohde & Schwarz also offers 1M waveforms in their RTO Series, although this came out quite a bit later (IIRC 2011).It's not that Agilent has invented excessively high waveform rates, or was the first with it. What they did first though was using waveform update rates as a marketing instrument, and this quite successfully.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 09:10:18 pm
content: Quote from: Isaac000 on June 02, 2015, 06:35:21 pmMy source is Ebay for my own scopes (at work we only buy new stuff directly from the manufacturers).QuoteOf course it depends on what exactly you want to do and where you're located (if you're say in Brazil then the choice is more limited and you'd probably take whatever is offered to you) but for $5k you should be able to get more for your money even from a lot of business sellers on ebay.Having said that, if the company you work for only allows you to buy from a few "approved" sources then there is really nothing you can do, and in this case fully deserve for being reamed by their suppliers.QuoteThe difference is that the MSO3000T is a modern scope which is fully supported by its manufacturer and comes with 3 years warranty.The point is not that the DLM6104 is a bad scope, the point is that $5k is pretty excessive for a scope with such poor general specs and no warranty. If you had to sell it today it's unlikely you'd get more than $2500 to $3000 for it on the open market (resellers will pay even less) because the value isn't there, and essentially means your company overpaid for it by almost 50%.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 09:52:37 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 02, 2015, 08:54:47 pmI meant in the price range. Never claimed they invented it. Not really familiar with the R&D's inventory though.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 10:13:18 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 03, 2015, 09:34:23 amNot really. Stuff like their ScopeCorder Series is sought after in certain industries but their normal scopes aren't really, at least not in the west. In fact, many T&M traders are often reluctant to take Yokogawa scopes in, as they are very difficult to shift.The fact is that the scope market in western countries is dominated by Agilent (low-end to high-end), Tek (mostly in the low-end) and LeCroy (mid-range to high end). While Yokogawa scopes are nice and of good build quality, they simply can't compete on a technological or performance level, and the fact that they are build in Japan means they're suffering from being stuck to the Yen.QuoteAgain, this is true for their ScopeCorders (which are modular multi-channel waveform recorders used in various industies) and a lot of other Yokogawa industrial gear, but not for their standard scopes. I've yet to see an EE lab in the West that has gone full Yokogawa (and I've seen a lot of labs over the years). I've seen a few Yokogawa scopes in areas where PSUs and industrial controls are developed, but even there they are usually an addition amongst a crop of other brands' stuff. And from what i've seen, support is a far cry from what other manufacturers offer.QuoteThe exchange rate for foreigners is quite good (better than it has been for many years), but still not great (the example of your £40 analog scope isn't really something you couldn't have found in the UK as well), and certainly not low enough for Yokogawa to be able to compete on price with other scope manufacturers.In fact, it's probably worse today than it has been in the past, as in the last 10 years or so scope prices in the low-end and lower mid-range sectors have plummeted, in no small part thanks to Chinese companies like Rigol ro Siglent.BTW: Iwatsu, who's scopes like Yokogawa scopes are predominantly sold in Japan, suffers from the same problem. Both companies benefit in their home country from the fact that scopes from other manufacturers imported into Japan are put under pretty high customs duties so they end up being more expensive than Japanese kit. Plus Japanese in common are very patriotic, and tend to favor home-grown solutions over stuff from abroad, even if the foreign stuff performs better.Since the late '90s LeCroy worked with Iwatsu, which build LeCroy's WaveRunner LT and WavePro 900 scopes in Japan from 1998 to around 2002. LeCroy also resold Iwatsu's entry level scopes since then. At that time it made sense, but pricing was much different back then as it is today. Today LeCroy partners with Siglent for entry-level (WaveAce) and the lower mid-range (WaveSurfer 3000) and has the other scopes build in the US. They still resell an Iwatsu scope (DS-5500T aka WaveJet 300T) but it's not exactly their best selling scope, as it's pretty expensive and with specs that aren't great by today's standard.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 01:16:03 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 03, 2015, 12:49:41 pmI'm really curious what that should be, as the only thing they seem to offer as PC software is some basic remote control tool that they even charge extra for. I haven't seen anything else, and certainly nothing like Agilent's 89000 VSA software, or MathLab and programming tools available for most Windows-based scopes.As to logging, most newer Windows scopes can log days, weeks or months of data to their hard drive, in a wide range of formats from binary, csv, xlsx or whatever.QuoteThe main reason people in the West focus on Agilent, Tek and LeCroy is that these are the technolgical leaders in scopes (ok, Tek maybe not so much any more), and their scopes offer top performance at decent prices plus very good support. Yokogawa isn't choosen because not because people don't know them but because the scopes they are offering are mostly outdated and overly expensive. Just buying one in Europe can be a real pain, as one of my customers had to find out a while ago, as there were only a handful of places that sold them, and none had some demo scopes available (and they all didn't seem to keen to sell anyways). Support seems to be a similar poor affair, with repairs taking weeks or sometimes months as spares have to be shipped back and forth from Japan.Especially Agilent and LeCroy have set the bar very high, not just in terms of performance but also service and support, and unfortunately at least in the West Yokogawa can't keep up in either department. They seem to have some nice ideas (i.e. the portrait format scopes), but the overall package just isn't there.QuoteI have yet to see any examples of such great deals (I'm sorry but again a £40 analo scope really isn't), and ex-corporate laptops are also available in the West in large quantities and therefore very cheap.But yes, an older Yokogawa scope can be a great addition for a hobbyist, as they are still interesting scopes, and older ones can sometimes be found for reasonable prices (interestingly, mostly in the West and from Russia, Japanese offers are regularly pretty expensive). For a few hundred bucks, why not. But (coming back to the original point of this thread) spending $5k on a DLM6104? Hell no!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 05:53:37 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 03, 2015, 03:37:23 pmI'm not sure what you're on about or why you mention their data loggers, as I thought we're talking about their benchtop scopes and not Yokogawa's other products (of which most are industrial special purpose products). And if you remember, I already mentioned their ScopeCorders, but again these are not standard oscilloscopes, which is what the discussion is about.And I haven't looked at their Japanese site, simply because I don't speak Japanese and the discussion is about Yokogawa scopes in the west so what the Japanese website says is pretty irrelevant. However, their international site only shows two scopes, the DLM2000 and the older DLM4000:http://tmi.yokogawa.com/products/oscilloscopes/digital-and-mixed-signal-oscilloscopes/The DLM2000 is a 2.5GSa/s (half-channel) scope with bandwidths between 200Mhz and 500MHz, and a large 62.5MB to 250MB (option) memory:http://tmi.yokogawa.com/products/oscilloscopes/digital-and-mixed-signal-oscilloscopes/dlm2000-mso-series/I really like the portrait format.But if you look at the options, all that is offered (aside from the memory extension) are extended math and various serial decode standards, plus power supply analysis:http://tmi.yokogawa.com/products/oscilloscopes/digital-and-mixed-signal-oscilloscopes/dlm2000-mso-series/#details-optionsIn terms of software, it's pretty much bog standard as well:tmi.yokogawa.com/products/oscilloscopes/digital-and-mixed-signal-oscilloscopes/dlm2000-mso-series/#downloadsThe DLM4000 is a nice 8ch scope (which are pretty rare, and more a specialty scope) with 350MHz or 500MHz bandwidth, and again 1.25GSa/s (all channels) and 2.5GSa/s (half-channel) sampling rate, plus the same memory as the DLM2000:http://tmi.yokogawa.com/products/oscilloscopes/digital-and-mixed-signal-oscilloscopes/dlm4000-mso-series/And again, the options are pretty standard for such a scope, and very much power electronics focused:http://tmi.yokogawa.com/products/oscilloscopes/digital-and-mixed-signal-oscilloscopes/dlm4000-mso-series/#details-options-accessoriesBut no trace of any of the advantages you claimed. Care to elaborate?QuoteNope, all modern advanced scopes record in pretty standard formats, and these formats are interchangeable. I guess you haven't seen much modern (non-Yokogawa) scopes then?In fact, it is Yokogawa who uses a non-standard format (WDF), and they have to offer a plugin so that the format is even readable outside the scope.QuoteNo, it isn't. For example, ScopeCorders are easily available in Europe, as is other industrial gear from Yokogawa. But Yokogawa scopes are hardly sold because for the Western market they're largely unattractive.I guess Yokogawa knows that, as their activities in the West focus around other products than benchtop scopes.QuoteFor example Teledyne LeCroy. In fact, my WavePro 7300A does have an internal printer (the same Citizen thermal printers that are used in Yokogawa and Iwatsu scopes).QuoteThere's the LeCroy HDO8000, an 8-channel scope with 12bit resolution. It not only offers the power analysis software for power electronics, but a lot of other options which exceed what you can get for the DLM4000.QuoteOn-screen annotation is standard in all LeCroy Windows scopes made since 2001. In fact, it's more than just annotation, it's a complete test report management system (called 'LabNotebook').Annotation facilities are also pretty standard on newer Agilent scopes (Windows scopes), and even Tek has that.QuoteI'm still curious to hear where exactly. It's not power analysis, that's for sure, as Agilent and LeCroy offer this for ages (LeCroy already had this in the late 90's). The only thing I could think of is an 8 channel scope, which was pretty unique until last year.QuoteHow about ebay? Analog scopes have no real value, it'd dead technology. Some Tek still go for silly money as do certain Philips scopes (CombiScopes), but the typical Kenwood, Leader etc scopes often don't even get a bid. These days, analog scopes regularly end up in the scrap heap.And as to the warranty, it's very likely worthless in the UK for a scope you bought in Japan.QuoteA large part of ex corporate laptops on the market here are Thinkpads, actually, and they really don't go for much more than Dell or HP business laptops.As a side note, you're also pretty overestimating the quality of Thinkpads. I've used Thinkpads since the 90's, and actually type this on a X201t, and I can tell you that they had lots of design flaws over the years (i.e. spotty displays in T2x, breaking cases of A31 Series, flexing mainboards in T41/T42, overheating T41p/T42p, hinge cracks in the T60, and so on).We use Panasonic Toughbooks at work, and they are indeed pretty good. Still, older models go for little money over here, too.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 06:50:07 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 04, 2015, 01:38:53 pmYeah, whatever. I have asked you *twice* to specify in more detail what these unique features are that you claim Yokogawa benchtop scopes to possess, but aside from some nebulous babble like "they have a lot of support for PC side software and logging, various unusual features for specific applications and the like" you are obviously unable to list specific examples and details (the Yokogawa website doesn't seem to know about these features, though), and it's very clear you really have no idea about what modern scopes from the Western big brands can do. Therefore, aside from being an obvious fanboi of anything Japanese (which wouldn't be a problem per se) I'd say you're just talking out of your ass here.QuoteYou mean like you didn't even provide a reference for your claims after being asked twice?There are tons of analog scopes which ended in the £40 price bracket in the UK, and guess what, there also are Kenwood scopes amongst them:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kenwood-CS-4125-Oscilloscope-Tested-15-May-2015-/201350639595http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kenwood-CS-4125-20mhz-oscilloscope-amp-probe-/281687186969http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kenwood-Trio-CS-1566A-20Mhz-dual-channel-Oscilloscope-/151654027091http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kenwood-Trio-CO-1506-20Mhz-dual-channel-Oscilloscope-/301606643581And that's just for the last 45 days, and certainly not the best offers that can be found on ebay. But with a £40 budget you can also get some very nice Tek scopes instead.Then there's also Gumtree, where quite often you can find analog scope for cheap, and Freecycle, where with some patience they are even free.But don't trust me, just start a new thread showing your scope and ask what people would be willing to pay for it. But be careful, I have a feeling that your illusion of a once-in-a-lifetime bargain might get shattered.QuoteWhat makes you think I'm a Brit? Also, the fact that you resent to stereotypes says a lot about you, and I can tell you that the image is pretty ugly.Anyways, the one thing I guess we can agree on is that further discussion if futile.

author: fanOfeeDIY
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 11:42:36 am
content: (I thought this thread was about YOKOGAWA DLM6104 reviews.)I live in Tokyo at the moment and have worked for Japanese and US/UK companies and I understand the discussion here.A few things I would like to comment is that, the customs duties for import electronic products from outside Japan are almost none right now. (only sales tax)This is the reason when JPY was 80JPY/USD, buying stuff at Amazon.com in Japan was much cheaper than Amazon.co.jp even including shipping cost from US.Now it is 125JPY/USD which is opposite, so we have a lot of tourists in Japan at the moment.One of the reason most of Japanese companies do not doing well outside Japan, based on my working experience is that,mostly because of old school culture in Japanese companies suffers with communication skills in English especially senior managements who are the decision makers.For example, if you go to Iwatsu's English web site, it is almost impossible to know the products and how to buy.If you look at Yokogawa's datasheet:https://www.yokogawa.com/pdf/provide/E/GW/Bulletin/0000022831/0/BU7101-00E.pdfthe first page is great but, on the third page, it says,"Sample rate is fairly high"but if I see the same datasheet in Japanese on the same page,https://www.yokogawa.co.jp/pdf/provide/J/GW/Bulletin/0000049354/0/BU7101-00.pdfand translating the same sentences in English is,"Good waveform capture from high sample rate"which means marketing words have been lost in translation.In Japan, EE and CS education in University are all done in Japanese, so even we learn English at the school,most of Japanese do not have reasonable English skills, unfortunately.And not all US/UK/EU companies are good at localizing in Japan.The good ones are, Tektronix. Keysight is not perfect but not that bad,IBM/Microsoft/Apple/Amazon/Google are extremely good, but others are not really.These things happens when people have different languages and cultures.Yokogawa's oscilloscope is not cheap in Japan either.(Yokogawa seems to be doing good in China though)(Also, most of Japanese thinks Japan is part of western country for historical reason.......)EDIT: fixed some grammars

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 10:05:16 pm
content: IMHO another problem with Japanese equipment is that it is almost impossible to find documentation on older models. HP/Agilent/Keysight and Tektronix have a ton of information on their old equipment on their websites. If you try to research a Japanese scope chances are you won't even find a spec sheet. For example there are several Yokogawa DL3110 12 bit 'for parts' scopes on Ebay for peanuts. They might be an interesting project to get a scope for audio and other low level work. They appear to have differential inputs for the first 2 channels... The biggest problem is that there seems to be no information available at all. Not even a spec sheet!

author: Rupunzell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2015, 07:24:48 am
content: Yokogawa Electric Works joined with Hewlett Packard in 1963 as a means to enlarge the market for YEW products and work with hp on various products.http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/abouthp/histnfacts/publications/measure/pdf/1963_10.pdfYEW's relationship with hp ended in 1999..http://www.yokogawa.com/pr/Corporate/News/1999/pr-news-1999-03-en.htmYEW's relationship with hp helped to grow them into the T&M company they have become today.*Those who are learning resistant are trapped in their own self-created reality.Bernice

author: Isaac000
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2015, 05:23:14 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 03, 2015, 09:34:23 amI would dispute this. On paper, there is no clear winner from all the manufacturers. All have their good & bad points. Yokogawa, I don't think they have any spec in particular that stands out, but I would not say it is "not competitive".Regarding the price, we got quotes from a bunch of local distributors for comparably equipped scopes (as equal as I could make it) for Keysight, LeCroy, Hameg, Rigol, Tektronix, Yokogawa for brand new scopes. Basic specs I asked for was 4-ch + logic, 200MHz, 2 Gs/s. I set the Keysight MSOX3024A (no options) as the reference.The cost comparison:Keysight (MSOX3024A)= 100%Keysight (MSOX3024T) = 108%Hameg (HMO3054+all options) = 101%LeCroy (WaveSurfer 3024) = 77% (I believe this is a re-badged Siglent)Rigol (MSO4024) = 68%Tektronix (MDO3024+logic option) = 110%Yokogawa (DLM2024)= 94%The Yokogawa doesn't look expensive at all. I might argue the Keysight is worth the relatively small premium, but I can't say the Yokogawa is unreasonable, and based on my experience with the DLM6104, I wouldn't say the Yokogawa's are bad to use either.Datasheets have been easy to find. User manuals are also not hard, they are available at Yokogawa, you just have to register. Sure, I prefer it being "freely/openly" available, but it's not a big hurdle to get this info.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2015, 07:57:21 am
content: Quote from: Isaac000 on June 12, 2015, 05:23:14 pmThe LeCroy WS3000 is manufactured by Siglent but the hardware has been designed in co-operation with LeCroy (and the software is entirely developed by LeCroy). I had one for a day and it's a very nice scope, and with the features it offers (i.e. WaveScan) at that price it's a killer.QuoteWell, all these on the list are brand new/current scopes, with full manufacturer warranty and support, so I'm sorry but $5k for a 7 year old DLM6104 *is* pretty expensive. If all you needed was 4 channels @ 200MHz bandwidth and 2 Gs/s + LA then why would you pay (much) more for an old niche manufacturer scope with average specs and a bandwidth that you don't seem to need and which the scope can't even make much use of (unless you're looking at a pure sinus only)? Sorry but this doesn't make any sense.You also wouldn't have to pay $5k for a similarly old Agilent MSO, i.e. like this:www.ebay.com/itm/The-Agilent-54832D-4-16-Channel-1-GHz-Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscope-MSO-/161668956477Or for a similar old Tek MSO:www.ebay.com/itm/Tektronix-Model-MSO-4034-4-16-channel-350Mhz-2-5GSs-LAN-w-4-probes-/251870695457Or for a scope from that period from LeCroy:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teledyne-LeCroy-Wavesurfer-44-MXs-A-/261927089623www.ebay.com/itm/LeCroy-Teledyne-24MXS-B-Oscilloscope-250-MHz-4-Ch-2-5-GS-s-ATP-MSURF-/201162860116(note that both are much more advanced scope than a DLM6104, although I'd say the second one is still too expensive)If all you want is an 7yr old MSO there are many options out there from the big brands which wouldn't have cost you $5k. But considering that since around 2012 scope prices have fallen noticeably (especially on the lower end), and now that new MSOs like the WaveSurfer 3000 are available brand new at very good prices the value in an 8yr old MSO (which when new might have cost much more than a modern MSO) is pretty much questionable, unless it's really cheap. I guess your vendor knows that, and was probably very happy to offload the DLM6104 onto you for the price he wants (which is what 2nd hand scopes used to cost, before prices have fallen). That's unfortunately typical for many T&M resellers, which is just another reason why a new scope is much more painless.QuoteSure, but good luck if you happen to need other stuff like probes (i.e. a current probe, or a differential probe), or other parts. You will (again) have to pay through the nose (if it's available at all) while for Keysight/Tek/LeCroy such things are much easier to come by at reasonable prices (especially LeCroy probes are often dirt cheap).

author: Isaac000
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 05:29:56 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 13, 2015, 07:57:21 amI do not mind any of those scopes, but as I mentioned, this is a corporate purchase, so I can't buy off some random dude on eBay.At any rate, this scope is basically "new old stock", so I would place a higher value on it than the usual used stuff, plus we get the full warranty on it. Yes, it is a 7-year old model, but I don't see where it falls behind any of the new ones I was considering or any of those other ones you listed. Taking the Wavesurfer-44 for example, the DLM6104 has better bandwidth, high resolution screen, equivalent single channel sample rate, more digital channels. Sure you could argue there are better choices, but the argument for an unreasonable choice is probably a bit weaker.At any rate, the original purpose is just to give some people a brief taste of Yokogawa, which I have never tried before and I've not seen many other opinions on it.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 06:39:02 pm
content: Not to mention the bragging rights of having a Yokogawa scopeI like the way it looks personally.

author: AutomationGuy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 06:55:41 pm
content: The price and spec of the Yokogawa seems ok to me.I bought my Wavesurfer 3024 plus MSO and FG for 5K8€ and the Yokogawa specs looks even better than mine. My USB might be faster but I have just 16Bit MSO and 4MS.Many engineers in our company prever Yokogawa for data logging. Tek and LeCroy is used in development. Yokogawa for testing.