House (apartment) Wiring Has No Ground (What can I do?) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Br0ski
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 05:35:28 am
content: Alright...Br0ski here.You guys are the top electronic experts on the internet as far as I am concerned and I have a question for y'all.I moved into an apartment in ######,## and when I moved in..... well I checked the outlets (some of them) and they were all 3-prong so I assumed they had a ground. After moving in and feeling the I got screwed feeling I checked all of them with my multimeter and some outlets were 2-prong. First there was the issue of voltage. In US we are suppose to get 120v (+14v from 110v so 124v MAX) I was getting 140v so I called the power company and they came out and readjusted the transformer for this whole building. Now it gets 124v. LOL WTF?!?Second problem is NO GROUND on any of the outlets. Someone had put 3-prong outlets just so they could fit their appliances in the wall and they didn't label them so it's 100% illegal. Anyhow without going to court to break my lease (6 months). What are my options?Firstly I complained and got the manager to get a handyman to wire 3 outlets to a "ground". By "ground" I mean the ground screw on the outlet connected to a pipe under the house. I saw one going to a cast-iron pipe (sewerage) and the other two, I didn't see, connected together to a pipe under the bathroom somewhere.Now before you guys go completely off on me... yes I know cast-iron is not very conductive or the other two might be connected to who knows what. But I have faith they are connected to something which I think hassomegrounding properties. So my next move might be an isolation transformer? and a BUPS in case it trips.OK now you can scold me and give me any suggestions I don't have many options and asking the landlord anymore will fall on deaf ears. The building was built in 1950s and has black cloth wiring and 2-wire throughout as well as push-button beakers. (that's pretty old) and everything has 10 layers of paint on it so stuff ain't going anywhere.I have 2 pretty hefty computers to hook-up and I want to run the thing 24/7, am I out of my mind?Here is one...Processor: Intel Core i7-3770k 4.2GhzMotherboard: ASRock P67 Extreme 4 Gen 3RAM: G.SKILL Trident X Series 16GB 1600MHz Dual ChannelGraphics Cards: 2 x Sapphire Radeon HD 7870 2GB DDR5 256-bitPower Supply: Corsair TX 850Case: Cooler Master HAFXMonitor: Asus 23" widescreen LED VS238H-P / 2 x Dell UltraSharp 17" LCD monitorKeyboard: Logitech G710+Mouse: Logitech G500Webcam: Logitech c920Headset: Corsair Vengeance 1500Water Cooling: Antec KULER H2O 920I saw some recommending other things besides the isolation transformer like something called a VSS and I can't find that thread again. I will continue to look, though it was on a Google search. (I looked into the GFCI thing but....?)Here was the closest I could find on the eevblog site:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/1950s-houses-mains-earthing-and-the-cable-guy/15/But those guys owned their home and like every other site most people are running little crappy laptops. Also that thread was 2011 and did not have other alternatives for hooking things up.So can you guys help? And recommendations? Any theory I could approach this situation?Except the I could sue and move theory.One theory might be to wait 6 months then hook up computers.Right now I am on a DELL Craptop with a APC Surge Protector.Anyway any advice is welcomed.Thanks guys,Br0ski O0

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 05:42:36 am
content: I certainly don't know Oregon's code, but many codes allow for the use of 3 pronged outlets on ungrounded circuits if the circuit is protected with GFCI. This is a compromise between previously allowing ungrounded circuits (up until the early 60s where I'm at) but acknowledging the fact that two pronged outlets are now unavailable.[Devil's Advocate] Since practically everything is double insulated now, what use is the ground anyway?[/Devil's Advocate]

author: Br0ski
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 06:02:47 am
content: "if the circuit is protected with GFCI"Yea nothing here has a GFCI. I am going to buy one for the kitchen to plug in my microwave.They do still sell the 2-prong outlets at some Home Improvement stores for these people who have not considered upgrading there electrical.If you ever wanted to meet people who don't know what the internet is come to this neighborhood.I was a cheap prick when I picked this place....and as the saying goes you get what you pay for.....Thanks for your reply.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 06:12:49 am
content: You're stuck.My brother does construction/remodeling in Oregon/Washington.The Apartment owners/manager are not required to upgrade those outlets if it is an older homeapartment.However, if the apartment were to catch fire, and then apartment rebuilt/remodeled, then they would have to conform to the new codes, as most likely the fire damage would require them to strip the apartment down to sticks and rebuild, electric and plumbing and all.My brother just went through this problem with a house in Vancouver, where a meth lab caught the house on fire. He's fighting with insurance company because all the electrical work they are not paying for, as the homeowner did NOT have upgrades for code compliance in the insurance policy, but the city required him to upgrade the home to conform with the modern codes for compliance with city regulations in order to pass inspection.A GFCI Outlet that is NOT properly grounded, won't help much either, but it will be better then no GFCI.The only thing you can do is to bury a connected rod into the ground, and also then run a wire and connect it to the city water pipe that runs into the apartment, then you should be protected. It's pretty easy to do, but will most likely require you to get underneath the apartment to find the inlet for the city water.Keep in mind though, if you get caught by a city inspector while doing this, and the property is NOT owned by you, they will fine you, and it is NOT cheap. I remember my brother was fined on a job installing a new wall plug, (he subs out the electrical and plumbing usually) and the inspector fined him $1500. The inspector made a surprise visit and kinda let himself in to inspect and saw my brother screwing on the wall plate. My brother is a licensed contractor, but NOT a licensed electrician.At my house, we recently updated our meter to a 200A panel from a 60A. The electrician had to bury a rod and connect to the city water pipe as well. The whole job, with a new meter, cable going to county electric connection, new panel box, and the buried rod, was $1700.00. I then installed a dedicated 3-prong grounded outlet, 1 for each bedroom. We connect our computers/TV's to these outlets. The rest of the outlets are still the 1950's 2-prong outlets.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 06:14:47 am
content: even some 100 year old electrical installations have a ground/PE conductor in the branch wiring. there were no 3-conductor cables then, but the metal body of an armored cable serves the same purpose. these metal shielded cables connected back to the fuse/distribution box, which was also metal and was wired to the neutral wire of the split-phase power drop. this connection to the neutral tap of the distribution transformer is the primary safety connection for the PE circuit. the fuse/breaker box would also be bonded to the main water line as a secondary safety connection.all that you need to do in such a configuration is to wire the ground tab of the outlet to the metal box. but if your installation uses cap and tube instead of armored cable, the box would be floating, instead. GFCI is your best option in that case.

author: Br0ski
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 06:38:25 am
content: So you guys think the separate grounds to the pipes under the building are completely useless?They test good on a multimeter.My theory is; an estranged power fault would be diverted to "where ever the ____" but would save the computer with an isolation transformer. Then power down with an Battery BUP.Am I in the ballpark?The breaker box is embedded in the wall with 15 layers of paint around it.Getting back underneath the building without the landlord seeing is impossible.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 06:48:39 am
content: From what the electrician told me when he did my house, the inspector would not approve the ground connection unless it was connected to the inlet pipe from the city water, and a rod had to be installed 4 feet into the ground (I think he said 4 feet). All I know was he was digging for an hour and cussing the whole time about stupid codes he had to comply with. LOLConnected to a galvanized or an old steel pipe under the house, as you said it was, is not good enough or completely useless. It needs to be connected to the water meter/inlet pipe for the city. If you go out and look at the meter box for your water, you'll see that the city has connected a wire to it, and that wire follows the piping that goes underneath the road to the city main water pipe.But I am in Vancouver, maybe the codes are different. In any case, this is not your apartment. You do not own it. It is the responsibility of the owner/manager to take care of this, and in some cases, any upgrades or changes made are at your expense. AND, in some cases, when and if you move out, the manager/owner could higher someone to return the property back to the way it was before you move in, and can charge you for that.Maybe you can work a deal out with the manager. If you are really wanting to fix the wiring, see if he'll make a deal with you. Maybe you can pay for it and he would be willing to defer rent payments till it is paid off. Or, worse case scenario, you can split the costs with him (not recommended, since you have no investment in the property).Heck, it's only 6 months. Maybe tell him that if he upgrades the wiring to where you'll feel safe hooking up your electronics, then You'll sign a year lease, giving them guarantee that you'll rent for another 6 months.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 08:02:05 am
content: Unless it's rotted off, or incorrectly installed, the neutral wire is still grounded at the fuse/breaker panel. (I have even seen 3-prong outlets with the ground and neutral connected together at the outlet to keep things like UPSs with ground detections circuits from bitching)But in any case, plug your computer in, it will run fine and not be harmed.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 11:18:14 am
content: In the UK, it's quite common for the Neutral and Earth to be combined before it comes into the house, so if the USA is the same then you just don't have any local earth, you could add your own, most would not bother.I wouldn't want a electric company to come and "tweak my transformer", sounds a bit dodgy to me, but it might be common the USA, is your equipment dual voltage, most of the stuff I buy these days come with a 100 - 250V power pack.

author: Br0ski
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 08:48:49 am
content: Thanks guys for your replies.Falcon69This area is an old city with plenty of old buildings and old electrical. I am most disappointed how I screwed up my plans to make an electronics lab in my apartment. I will look forward to my 6 month anniversary. I do not care about code, I have an old Crusty Army vet for a Landlord that is why I was able to get the pseudo-grounds put in."AND, in some cases, when and if you move out, the manager/owner could higher someone to return the property back to the way it was before you move in, and can charge you for that."- You are very right about that, I did not think of that, I am hoping that might not be a problem because I will go repair his Surveillancesystem next week.I thought about wheeling and dealing with him but like you said I have nothing invested in the property; except so far it seems like a nice place to live.Helieusit isn't tubes for breakers, it is push-button, as far as I know it basically is a positive and negative in and just an old style push-button instead of a lever. The wire is so old it doesn't have a sheathing or armor; it is +/- wrapped in a black cloth with 2 separate wires with insulation on them.YeaWilkseythat was pretty f*cked up....LOL I had to have them come "tweek" the transformer. I asked the landlord if he has been blowing out lights and he said yep like 6 in a few months . How's that for F-up?So what is the worse that can happen?Will the grounds I had them put in offer some form of protection?I guess I am worried about over-voltage, spikes, lightning strikes and what else?And what do you guys think of something called an isolation transformer? (I have started researching them and they look like they might offer protection for my equipment? And if you guys know about Isolation Transformers which specs would I get? I am watching videos on it right now and there isn't one size fits all.)....anddr.dieselthanks for chiming in you say don't worry about it.I know there is no guarantee but I want to know what I should be looking out for? I feel there must be someone out there that has had a similar experience or a really bad outcome from this scenario and I want to hear it.Thanks for helping me out guys I am hoping to turn this thing around and contribute more to this community. That was some of my intention.I also want to add I will be running Solid State Drives but my power supplies are rated:AC Input RatingDC Output RatingAC Input: 100V - 240VDC Output+3.3V +5V +12V -12V +5VsbCurrent: 12 - 6AMaxLoad30A 30A 62A 0.8A 3.0AFrequency: 50Hz - 60HzMaximum Combined Wattage150W 744W 9.6W 15WTotal Power: 750WSo any noise that might be transmitted should (hopefully) fall between the tolerances of 100v-240v, 12-6A correct?Isolation transformers guys? What do you think or I will nuke this thing.(that's a Military term for overthinking/overanalyzing the sh*t out of something)Any suggestions are welcome.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 10:52:42 am
content: Quote from: Br0ski on May 06, 2015, 08:48:49 amI'm not too sure what assurance you're seeking. My first two houses, both two prong outlets, no ground, we just ripped the ground plug out of the cord if necessary. Never an issue with any of my computer equipment.Just remember, most of today's laptops, with fancy I7s, SSDs, and Nvidia graphics cards are powered by power supplies with no ground plug.

author: Chipmunk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 08:30:49 pm
content: I'd not get overly bothered. While the 'ground connected to various random bits of metal' is not to code, unless something goes horribly wrong, it should be ok.Those pushbutton breakers, if they're the type that screw in in place of edison base fuses, might be a worry, as they're typically (from a dissection!) only thermal, not thermal-magnetic.As has been mentioned before, often the cloth covered wiring had an armour or outer binding of wire.... I'd have a look (safely of course after turning the power off!) behind the outlets that have no ground. it might simply be that the outer 'armouring' for want of a better word is not making contact with the metal outlet box properly, or that the outlet screws aren't connecting the ground (they never bothered with a ground pigtail on the older systems).The voltage being at 140... is amoment. Sounds like someone at the power co screwed up a tapping!

author: Br0ski
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2015, 01:20:40 am
content: ThanksChipmunk,there is no ground going to the outlet boxes just the two wires. I think I will just do a hell of a back up and keep my fingers crossed for 6 months. Hardware although expensive isn't half as bad loosing then all your data. My data might be worth thousands of man hours. My computer is only worth a phone call or some online ordering for 20 minutes.I will not be making this mistake again.You guys have any knowledge about isolation transformers and if that would help quell my problem?

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2015, 01:46:44 am
content: Quote from: Br0ski on May 07, 2015, 01:20:40 amIt will not help, and as described you so far do not have a known problem correct?

author: Br0ski
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2015, 02:56:55 am
content: dr.diesel says:"It will not help, and as described you so far do not have a known problem correct?"Honest it is hard for me to really say.In this laptop, Dell Latitude from 2004 (2GHz Duo etc..) I had a SSD fail (lock up on me) and I was running it 24/7? It just reset and never came back.Basically it stopped from recognizing the hard drive (something called a "panic-lock" I guess some SSDs do to "protect" themselves?) so I had to re-install a hard drive and OS and so far I am walking on sticks. Maybe that was not related in anyway and that was before we installed the "pseudo-ground".Laptop is old so???Dr.Diesel I am going to just go for it like you said and immediately after plugging in I will make an image of all 6TB of data and put it somewhere so if all else fails I won't be completely at a loss.Thank you all for your input.

author: KDC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2015, 11:07:26 pm
content: The ground in your typical power supply, be it laptop or desktop doesn't actually do much. It acts as a return path in the case of a voltage spike (shunted via MOV) or if the case become electrified.Now, the issue of no ground... there might not be a ground wire in the box, but depending on the wiring methods the box may still be grounded. Old BX (metal spiral covered) cable used the metal sheath as a ground and/or a strip of metal inside. New(er) cables with a bond wire sometimes had the bond wire wrapped around the cable and the box clamp tightened down on that. Neither one is up to modern code, but they did strange things back when they added bond wires to things.Easy way to check that would be to measure voltage between hot and box. Should be the same as hot and neutral.Voltage issues... 140V is high, and I honestly would have checked on the voltage on the other leg as well to see if it was low (which could indicate a problem with the neutral). But 124 is in the "high normal" range, and the power supplies of most modern electronics can handle it just fine.(I'm a power electrician, and work for a power company, so take my opinions for whatever you think they're worth)

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2015, 12:47:44 am
content: I recently asked the same question. My house was built in 1913 and has 2 cloth wires. I took someone's suggestion and bought this to plug in my extension cord that my test equipment is plugged into:[url=http://www.amazon.com/Tower-Manufacturing-30340001-2-Wire-Adapter/dp/B002KSKJFG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1431041281&sr=8-1&keywords=gfci+2-wire]http://www.amazon.com/Tower-Manufacturing-30340001-2-Wire-Adapter/dp/B002KSKJFG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1431041281&sr=8-1&keywords=gfci+2-wireI also have been looking at isolation transformers (to protect my test equipment). Someone said that is old school and GFCI and differential probes are the way to go. Maybe I will do that once I figure out what they are. They are expensive and I think an old used transformer might be cheaper. But for now I am just going to live with what I have.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2015, 11:24:02 pm
content: You need to think through what you are worried about and how to protect against those worries.1. Your wiring has no safety ground. There are two potential hazards here. One is that you develop a hot to case fault in your computer or other equipment. If that happens, and you are touching the case and touching something that is grounded (a bathtub, faucet or old style telephone) something bad will happen. The second is that there are poor connections in the neutral and due to neutral currents the neutral is at some voltage from ground. Then a case to neutral fault will have similar effects. An isolation transformer will eliminate the second problem, and limit the first problem to you touching something on the neutral side of the isolation transformer while a hot to case fault exists.These are not very high probability problems. That is why this form of wiring was legal well past the middle of the twentieth century. Operating a computer under these circumstances is far lower risk than operating a toaster oven or metal cased electric drill. (By the way, two prong outlets are widely available, and it is a violation of the National Electric Code and every local code I am aware of in the US to install a grounded outlet without proper ground. The very sound theory is that it is bad practice to lie to people about their protection.)2. Since there is no ground any spike protection that depends on a path to ground is negated. The effects of an isolation transformer on this are complicated. Spikes can be suppressed or amplified in an isolation transformer, depending on spike shape and transformer configuration. You will only really know if something goes wrong. You are really rolling the dice in this area, since old areas tend not to have all of the surge protection of newer installations, have had decades for maintenance issues to creep in and so on. If you look you will probably find your power is relatively dirty. Your best protection here is not spike suppression, but a robust process for backing up your data. That has the side benefit of protecting against other data threats, including the worst one - operator screw up.

author: abit
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2015, 08:35:20 am
content: "You guys are the top electronic experts on the internet as far as I am concerned and I have a question for y'all"I live in IL Hoffman Estate apartment and I run about 20 virtual machines inside one boxThe laptop is a bare-minimal Debian, and it has all the data of the SERVERSIt shuts down gracefully before its battery is fully drainedI spend about $200 every year to keep that laptop workingVE-Day is 1945 April 08, Victory over EuropeA good day for US in the US!Thanks for posting!

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2015, 08:42:48 am
content: Appears that your main worry is data safety, so have an external back up drive that is only powered up during backing up operations, unplug it the rest of the time. The power supplies are rated to 240 volts which means they go higher (around375). The SSD probably failed because it was going to any way, The computer magazines were at one time full of stories of SSD's failing often after only a few hours of use,seems the early ones had problems and some still do. The main reason you would want an actual ground is personal safety and for things such as scopes. The neutral will be earthed so if you identify that you can use it to ground a scope at a pinch.