Which of These Rigol Oscilloscopes; or pay more for Sigilent 1104X-E? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Tech77997
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 02:23:05 pm
content: I have done a lot of research on purchasing an oscilloscope in order to learn more. I thank many posters who have given me such valuable insight in another post. I have essentially narrowed my search (except for some Sigilents which I will discuss later) to either the Rigol DS1054Z, or the Rigol DS1202Z.I am a beginner who really wants to get one of these to learn as I go; I am not sure my specific use cases yet. Being that these are such highly acclaimed entry level scopes, I feel safe getting one of these and letting it in with me as I go on my uncertain learning journey.However, I am certain that I want to learn electronics more. I just completed my sophomore year studying electrical and computer engineering at college, and realizing more all that I do not know. I hope to use this 'scope for a better understanding of my homework and labs when I am not able to be in the school labs. Therefore, does the DS1054Z 50 MHz bandwidth seem too low for you? Or is it maybe better than the DS1202Z since it has 4 channels? The other is 200 Mhz, but then again the DS1054Z can be brought to 100 Mhz. So all in all, is it better to have more bandwidth and less channels, or more channels and less bandwidth (if we had to choose)? I know it would depend on my use case, but perhaps there is some general answer as again I do not really know my use cases; rather, I know I am going to be using this in tandem with my classes in college.Then, there is the Sigilent 1202X-E, or even the 1104X-E. I know there is quite a bit of writing about these in this forum, but I am still exactly unsure how they stand up against those Rigols. And, being that the 1104X-E can be 100-150 dollars more, plus all of the extras that I do not think are standard (maybe they are now for Sigilent? I know Rigol made all of their extras standard), I am not sure if that specific Sigilent is worth the extra money for my general case. But then, the Sigilent 1202X-E is the same price as the Rigol 50Mhz 4 channel, but this Sigilent is 2 channel with 200 Mhz.So to summarize: I'm met with the question of Rigol vs. Sigilent, and the question of 4 channel 50 (or 100) Mhz vs. 2 channel 200 Mhz.I know this has probably been brought up before, but again I am asking for my non-specific use case as well as to get the most up-to-date advice. I am so appreciative for your expertise.

author: 0-8-15 User
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 02:46:50 pm
content: I bought the SDS 1104X-E a couple of years ago and the only thing I dislike is the fan noise of the stock cooling setup. However, the SDS1202X-E is supposed to be less noisy.To my limited knowledge, channels seem to be much more useful than bandwidth. So if I had to choose between 4 channels and 100 MHz and 2 channels and 200 MHz I'd always pick 4 channels.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 02:47:51 pm
content: My 2 cents:The Rigol DS1202Z is a non-starter for me simply because it's only a two channel scope. For a beginner, four channels will be more beneficial than the 200MHz bandwidth. If you expect to do any protocol decoding (SPI, RS232, I2C, etc), being able to look atboththe input and output at the same time will make testing easier. As for the 200MHz bandwidth, I believe 100MHz will be enough unless you have a special need for more.The Rigol DS1054Z... My choice DS1074Z prior to the release of the DS1054Z.Be aware, the MSO and Plus versions are harder to hack.The Siglent SDS1104-E. I don't know a lot about it. The only downside for me is that the measurement information is transparent andveryhard to read when the channel waveform covers it up. See video at time 13:45.

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 02:49:41 pm
content: As you know, without knowing more about what you'll use it for it's kinda tough to answer. I'd just caution you that you're bound to get responses from folks who will give their opinion based on what THEY use a scope for, without considering your needs. And you'll indoubtedly get the "well, you get more X, therefore it's better" type of response which often is irrelevant to many.Can you give us a hint about what area interests you in particular? Audio? Digital? Power systems? Control systems? There are so many fields with so many different requirements that it's really tough to say.Regarding the Rigol 1054Z, it seems you're aware that it's a very simple tweak to convert the 50MHz to 100MHz, so that's kind of a non-issue. Though whether you need it is a question.I use multiple channels to compare stuff. When A happens, what happens to B? For me, it's a great way to learn stuff. Though it's tougher to justify 4 channels, even though I have a 4 channel scope. Maybe because I forget I have multiple channels and don't think to take advantage of them.I'd suggest you sit down and think about what aspects of electrical engineering you like, and what field you might be considering, and that might help decide what tools you need.

author: 0-8-15 User
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 02:56:51 pm
content: Quote from: MarkF on May 15, 2020, 02:47:51 pmI don't remember that I ever had a problem reading anything on the screen and I use the measurement overlay all the time.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 03:07:22 pm
content: Quote from: 0-8-15 User on May 15, 2020, 02:56:51 pmLooking at the video again, it is showing cursor data.The measurement data is minimally covered elsewhere in the video.The video is old and maybe the latest firmware is different.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 03:26:34 pm
content: Quote from: Tech77997 on May 15, 2020, 02:23:05 pmAs you state later, the 50 MHz bandwidth is before 'unlocking'. The actual measured bandwidth, after unlocking, is around 130 MHz.QuoteThat is always the question. Four channels is nice for decoding the SPI protocol. To be honest, I spend 99.9% of my scope time with just a single channel. Sometimes 2 channels and only rarely all 4. I have the DS1054Z. It came out years before the Siglent but today I would buy the SDS1104X-E and unlock 200 MHz.QuoteThe big complaint about the Rigol is the slow user interface. The Siglent is purported to be much better in this regard. The Rigol was first, Siglent came along and improved the shortcomings of the Rigol. But the thing is, just exactly how much time does a user spend with the UI? For me, it's not very much. Speed isn't an issue - to me.QuoteIt's brought up a couple of times per week - 3 in the last week. Kind of a bumper crop.I bought the DS1054Z a couple of years before the Siglent SDS1104X-E was released. It was the hottest thing on the market and it's been an excellent scope. Today, I would buy the SDS1104X-E and unlock 200 MHz because bandwidth is good and I would still want 4 channels.You can get by without technically sufficient bandwidth in many cases but if you need more channels, you're out of luck. I got by with a 10 MHz Heathkit for a very long time. We don't always probe really fast signals. Even with my 100 MHz FPGA projects, that's the internal speed. On the external signals, 10 MHz would be about as high as I go.I probably wouldn't shell out the money for the SDS1204X-E when I can unlock the bandwidth with the SDS1104X-E. I haven't really researched unlocking the Siglents. More info over in the Test Equipment forum.OTOH, if I was a student, I would think long and hard about the Digilent Analog Discovery 2. There's a reason my grandson's lab course used this device. Probably price but more likely the high degree of integration and functionality. Download the Waveforms software and play with the 'Demo' device to get a flavor for its capabilities.Start with reply 52 here and follow along for 4 experiments:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/starter-scope/50/A couple of those experiments seem pretty important and they are darn hard to rig up with a scope and waveform generator. The Siglent can do some kind of Bode' plot but I haven't seen the printed output and I think it requires a Siglent waveform generator.Don't overlook the capability to annotate the plots to emphasize various features. This can also be done with most scope images but not nearly as easy because it has to be done after the image is captured whereas annotation becomes part of the image on the AD2.I'm having a little problem getting things set up but the idea that the AD2 can be integrated with MATLAB seems pretty compelling.There's also the 27" monitor versus the small screen size (even if it is large by previous standards). There are also voltage and frequency constraints but there are a large number of tools in a simple package.Follow along in that thread with the experiments where we discuss some of the limitations.https://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/https://www.amazon.com/dp/B018OPOQOS-- apparently the Digilent Store is overrun and they are diverting non-student customers to Amazon. I didn't look for accessories or any kits. Don't forget, Digilent offers a student discount on the AD2 and the accessory kits.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 03:39:29 pm
content: Any of these entry level scopes are just that, entry level. It is entirely possible that a user would need higher bandwidth, MSO functionality or other advanced features. That's why Keysight has one model priced over $300,000.When you need capability beyond what these scopes provide, you'll know it! That would be the time to upgrade.You can buy analog scopes with a lot of bandwidth on eBay for reasonable prices. I picked up a used Tek 485 350 MHz 2 channel scope for about $200 and it works great. That's a lot of bandwidth for the price. OTOH, it has absolutely none of the features of a modern DSO which is why I bought the Rigol. Single shot mode alone is worth the price of the DSO.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 04:50:57 pm
content: If your budget allows it's nice to have a 4 channel scope, and for some purposes a 4 channel scope is really useful, for example when desinging 3-phase motor circuits.However, I often check signal integrity with my old Rigol (from before the 1054 existed) and then switch to my logic analyzer for signal decoding and stuff.There are a lot of reasons why a USD10 Logic analyser based on CY7c68013A with Sigrok / Pulseview is superior to an oscilloscope.* Probing digital signals with a scope and scope probes is *&^%$#@!* LA box is small, you can use tape or rubber bands to secure it to your DUT. Or better:* (Semi) permanently fix a 10 pin IDC header on your board (with hot snot), with flatcable to the LA. Solder enameled wires between the connector and test points.* It has 8 channels, so you can check I2C, UART SPI at the same time.* 16 channels is also easily possible with a "generic" CY7c68013A board. (Same firmware and uC)* Pulseview has 100+ different signal decoders.* Sigrok / Pulseview is 100% open source. Will remain free.* Signal decoders are typically a few pages of Python code. You can add your own if needed.* PC is a very good User interface for a LA. For a scope you want real knobs. LA works better with a bigger and higher resolution screen.* PC as logic analyser interface also lets you store to HDD much easier, for making reports or for later comparisons, screenshots, data logging etc.Whether you go with 2 or 4 channel scope, just also get a few (in case one blows) of those USD10 LA's.They lack in sample rate (Max 24MS/s), and the highest signal speed I've captured (And successfully decoded) was 1.5Mbps Low-speed USB.Also because they are so small and cheap, I bought a multitude of them and leave them attached to projects on breadboards etc.Something else to consider:It seems that the Great Craze in Digital oscilloscopes price dropping is mostly over now.You can start with a relatively cheap and popular scope and plan in advance to sell your scope second hand in a few years.That "few years" may become 15+ years if your "needs" are modest, and if you outgrow your scope you have a much better idea of what capabilities you need for your 2nd scope.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 05:04:25 pm
content: A 16 channel 100MSa/s logic analyzer comes along for the ride with the AD2. Or, you can use, say, 8 channels as a LA and the other 8 channels as a stimulus pattern generator. Or any other combination of IO. Use some channels as switches, other channels as LED, etc.It also has the ability to encode and decode protocols. From the IDE, you can send packets to and from SPI and I2C devices. This can be just plain awkward using conventional methods when it has to be done by programming a second device as a master or slave just to facilitate debugging.Of course, many other LAs have similar features. The important part about the AD2 is that it is all included. Dual channel scope, dual channel AWG, 16 channel digital IO, software defined tools and all the other stuff that should be on the bench.I had never tumbled to the dedicated web site:https://analogdiscovery.com/ETA: There is a bunch of demo videos at this site, just click on any of the tool buttons at the left of the page.Down at the bottom of the list of gadgets is 'Script Editor' where various test operations can be controlled in a simple script. This kind of thing can be done on various pieces of test equipment but it can be problematic if multiple vendors don't use the same protocols. A simple example is a transistor curve tracer - it's over in Test Equipment somewhere. Basically, the AD2 controls the base current (in steps) and performs certain measurements to produce the conventional set of curves. Interesting for the student.

author: Nasreddin
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 05:08:56 pm
content: I just went through this exercise buying my first scope. I almost always buy my hobby equipment used, but this time I bought the 1054z new from TEquipment for a bit over $300 shipped after the student and EEVblog discounts. There's also a 5yr warranty promotion running with them though June. I had about a $400 budget so with the extra I also picked up a simple four channel power supply, and a used Analog Discovery to act as a signal generator and logic analyzer.I'm an electrochemist but new to circuits beyond the complexity of "equivalent circuits" in Electrochemical Impedence Spectroscopy:https://www.gamry.com/application-notes/EIS/basics-of-electrochemical-impedance-spectroscopy/This means I'm accustomed to working with three to five electrodes at a time, but at frequencies below ~100kHz, voltages under ~6V, and currents less than ~100mA.My goal is to be able to build and eventually design simple potentiostats with different topologies and test their performance. Some of my experiments in professional life have been limited by commercial potentiostat configurations. On this journey I'm just beginning to develop some comfort with op-amps.I selected the four channel scope so I could sense more regions in the circuit at once. My newly adopted hobby with the AVR microcontrollers wont exceed 16 MHz so I don't anticipate needing more bandwidth.The only advantage the Sigilent offered for me was better low voltage resolution.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 06:55:02 pm
content: Quote from: Tech77997 on May 15, 2020, 02:23:05 pmThe 'extras' for the Siglent are described here and can be priced by clicking on the individual box and noting the price change.The Description text talks about decoding being included free.https://siglentna.com/product/sds1104x-e-100-mhz/At Amazon, the price difference is about $100 DS1054Z versus SDS1104X-E. The only question is whether the extra bandwidth is worth the money. In my view, yes, bandwidth is king (except for channels).The cool thing is that I own a Siglent AWG so I could actually do the Bode' plot experiments on the SDS1104X-E. One of these days I going to buy one!

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 08:21:25 pm
content: A retired EE and educator has a YouTube channel under the user name Tomtektest. One of his hobbies is teaching and he is a big fan of the Analog Discovery. He has done many videos demonstrating a variety of it's uses, among which are a curve tracer, audio analyzer and impedance analyzer. He also doe a host of basic circuit experiments with it. As mentioned, the Digilent site has a good group of tutorial videos on how to use the AD as well. Love mine, even after buying the SDS1104X-E.

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 08:46:11 pm
content: I have used both, in a professional setting for hours on end. I have found using the Rigols extremely frustrating. In my experience, the UIs are slow, clunky, and aggravating. The Siglent UI is much cleaner, and much more responsive. Maybe some of the new Rigol products are better, but much prefer the Siglent.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 09:08:30 pm
content: Another alternative is GW Instek GDS-1054B, for $310 at tequipment and $345 at saelig. Both offer free shipping. It seems to be out of stock until August, but is a very nice scope for the value. Now it includes serial decoding for free and it can be hacked to 100-200MHz with some extra options. FFT is very fast. I don't have one currently, but if you can get it for $310, it is a bargain.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 10:46:21 pm
content: Quote from: Old Printer on May 15, 2020, 08:21:25 pmObviously, I'm a huge fan of the AD2. If I were a student, I would have the AD2 along with my laptop and a few projects all in my backpack. I could do lab experiments anywhere. Literally anywhere if the battery was charged. Even hanging out at the beach or slurping coffee at Starbucks (where they have power outlets at every table for recharging).In these days of social distancing, a common lab may not be practical. It may very well fall to the student to work the labs using whatever they have on hand. I don't know what that may involve, probably the Analog Parts Kit that is available from Digilent (cheap when you buy the AD2 at the same time) and a few common parts.My grandson's semester was nearly over when in-class sessions were replaced by video classes. The labs went right out the window but most of them were already done. A little pencil whipping and it was over. I thought it was telling that the University uses the AD2 for labs.Sooner or later I would add a real scope and a real AWG but for class work, the AD2 is hard to beat.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 11:32:47 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on May 15, 2020, 10:46:21 pmHugefan? Maybe more like theAD2 Team Coach

author: Tech77997
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2020, 04:05:47 pm
content: Thank you all for your input. I have decided to go ahead and purchase the Siglent 1104X-E. I see the price is $456 on Amazon; is this the best price I can get it for? Are there are any student discounts available anywhere, or EEVBLog discounts available? Thank you.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2020, 04:25:13 pm
content: Saelig has a 6% discount for EEVblog members.Scope:http://www.saelig.com/siglent-sdsx-series/sds1104x-e.htmDiscount:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/equipment-discounts-from-saelig/