folding plug - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: siliconmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2012, 08:21:44 am
content: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17131578

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2012, 09:00:43 am
content: EEEK!!!

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2012, 09:09:22 am
content: Boy, am I happy we've got the good old Schuko & Europlug here. No need to fold them.

author: Balaur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2012, 09:19:56 am
content: Quote from: david77 on February 27, 2012, 09:09:22 amPlus, if you step on them (yes, even on the bulky but pleasantly round Schuko) you don't hurt yourself (too much).And, let's be honest, the Schuko-type connection is confidently solid.But, I personally like the Danish plugs. How you can say no to a face like this?:

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2012, 10:04:23 am
content: Well of course you can appreciate such a thing when you see how compact North American plugs and power adapters can be. For instance, here's a picture of the iPhone USB charger with a UK plug next to it for comparison:The UK plug is empty, but the iPhone charger has a whole switching power supply inside a case little bigger than a sugar cube...

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2012, 10:24:55 am
content: The whole idea of the folding plug is you can put it in your pocket, a shuko would be just as uncomfortable in your pocket.But I must agree that in some ways a shuko is better than a British 13 amp square pin in that the tracking length is greater in damp conditions but they do tend to be made of very brittle plastic and crack easily. The US plug I think is an absolute horror and an accident waiting to happen most likely designed by Micky Mouse. I have a number of plugs and sockets from around the world in my collection.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2012, 10:45:21 am
content: That's what the Europlug is for. There are some very compact USB chargers aroundhttp://www.google.de/products/catalog?hl=de&gs_nf=1&cp=8&gs_id=2z&xhr=t&q=usb+ladeger%C3%A4t&pq=usb+charger&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1280&bih=773&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=1007815125265524925&sa=X&ei=DVxLT86gLNHGswbntfiUBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CHgQ8gIwAgThere are Schuko plugs made from less brittle material these days, even some made out of rubber for use on building sites.I kind of like the UK plug, it looks very imposing but on the other hand it's a bit over the top. Those contacts look like they could carry considerably more current than 13A. That's probably why you can find them here in 12V PV or battery powered installations like garden sheds on allotments or remote huts in the Alps.

author: PetrosA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2012, 01:05:25 pm
content: I think the British plugs were originally designed as a last line of defense against a land invasion by the Nazis for a project called "Morning Star."I'm generally a fan of the Schuko plug design, but it's greatest weakness (and typical in the way German engineers often overlook the obvious in their designs...) is that it can be used in an unearthed outlet, negating the entire intent of an earthed safety connection. A second, minor gripe I have with most European Schuko type plugs (other than ones with an earth pin) is that they can be used without regard to polarity.Granted, the greatest weakness of US plugs is that they're not finger safe, but that could be addressed at some point. At least now they're making the receptacles child-proof...

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2012, 02:19:01 pm
content: As far as I know the unearthed outlets that were in use before the Schuko plug came into widespread use have holes with a smaller diameter than the earthed Schuko outlets. I think the old ones were 4mm and Schuko is 5mm so they wouldn't fit without force. Granted, that is a bit of a small safety margin.But there should be very few unearthed outlets left today as earthed types have been mandatory for decades at least in Germany. I personally know of only one unearthed outlet in my grandfather's house behind a huge bookshelf. It's been there since 1953 and has not been changed because of the shelf.As for polarization I'm still not convinced that has any benefits. We probably have a different view on that matter here.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2012, 03:35:44 pm
content: The thing has lost it's appeal now they changed the direction of the fold out wings. The main thing I liked was that you could supposedly do this:...but now you can't. It's nice and small, but that's just not enough for me, I have been fine with the normal size plugs.

author: wkb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2012, 03:45:28 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on February 27, 2012, 10:04:23 amNah, the UK plug is normally (always?) not empty, it has its own builtin fuse

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2012, 04:40:24 pm
content: Quote from: david77 on February 27, 2012, 02:19:01 pmIn the Netherlands unearthed outlets are still quite common. They have the same size holes as the shucko plug. Whats worse, the non-earthed outlets are only recessed a couple of mm, so they aren't finger safe either.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2012, 04:55:10 pm
content: The Northern European plugs hove slightly larger pins than the southern European plugs the southern ones are also slightly further apart but not so much as you cannot force them into a northern sockets as they will bend inwards slightly without to much effort. The UK plugs were designed in the sixty's there was some form of competition a lot of people at that time thought that we should adopt the shuko or French design at the time but not wanting designed or made abroad won the day and we ended up with three square pins to replace several sizes of round pins. I cannot see why we did not just put fuses into the 15 amp round pin of the day and do away with the 2 amp 2 pin 5 amp and 10 amp 3 pin that were also in use at the time. would have made more sense. The 13 amp is also used in Zimbabwe I am not sure about South Africa, The 5 and ten amp round pin plugs are still used in things like stage lighting.

author: ron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2012, 06:25:06 pm
content: Quote from: david77 on February 27, 2012, 02:19:01 pmMeasure the voltage of the tip of a soldering station iron to neutral. Then switch the polarity of the plug (or outlet) and measure again.At least on my Hakko and Weller stations you can get a big surprise if you try to solder a grounded wire when the mains polarity is switched. Unless you like welding.

author: Balaur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2012, 06:32:23 pm
content: Quote from: ron on February 27, 2012, 06:25:06 pmThe behavior you presented has absolutely no reasons to exist. Things should not happen in the way you described. There is absolutely no benefit for this.Could you please double check?

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2012, 08:04:17 pm
content: Quote from: wkb on February 27, 2012, 03:45:28 pmA standard BS1363 should always have a fuse. This fuse should conform to BS1362. If the plug is an adapter, then I believe different parts of the standard apply and you don't need the fuse (or at least you don't need it to be user replaceable)Neil

author: ron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2012, 08:38:20 pm
content: Quote from: Balaur on February 27, 2012, 06:32:23 pmIt's true. Once I plugged a Weller station into a quad box that had neutral and hot swapped and the sparks flew when the tip contacted ground. I metered a 888 Hakko and it is not isolated either.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2012, 09:24:34 pm
content: Quote from: ron on February 27, 2012, 08:38:20 pmI don't see how it can be true unless the iron is faulty--and if it is that faulty it should not be used and should be disposed of.The tip of the iron is an exposed metal part. It must therefore be fitted with a three pin plug with a ground/earth connection, and the exposed metal parts of the iron must be securely connected to the earth/ground wire. All of the live parts of the iron (such as the heating element) should be insulated from the exposed metal parts. If you swap the live and neutral wires nothing should happen unless the iron is faulty, and then if it is a fuse should blow or a breaker should trip.You can get sparks from a low voltage like 12 V or so, but if you have 12 V on the metal parts of the iron it says the ground/earth connection is not very good.

author: gxti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 01:24:46 am
content: In my opinion, the fact that the US plug hasn't killed millions and been legislated into oblivion is evidence that it is safe enough. If it's possible to make the plugs "finger safe" without forcing everyone to buy new receptacles (hmm, job creation!) then that would be good, I suppose.One thing I don't understand is why polarized but unearthed plugs need to exist. I guess it reduces the harm from sticking your finger into a light socket since the big part is tied to neutral. But neutral can still give you a mild shock in odd conditions, and you can't rely on it as a reference point for comms because it moves with the load on the wires. Getting rid of polarized plugs was probably a good move on the European's part.

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 02:09:09 am
content: I also don't get why polarized plugs need to exist.If the device absolutely needs to be connected to earth ground (or it will blow up) - use an grounded plug (Schuko) and state so in the manual and on the device.If the device does not need to be connected to earth ground then use an unearthed plug and treat both wires as "live" - do not connect any of them directly to a part that can be touched while the device is in operation. And it seems that a lot of devices manage that - both wires go trough the switch to the primary of the transformer or to an insulated part of a SMPS.If the device would work better with a ground connection (but won't blow up if not grounded), then use a grounded plug, but still treat "live" and "neutral" as if they were both "live" - after all, if I ever plug that device in a 240V socket in the US, both wires will be "live".In my country, if the wiring is old (~20 years - still Soviet style), then there will be no earth ground at all - grounded Soviet plugs look similar to Australian plugs and are not compatible with the ungrounded sockets (which look like Schuko but the base is round and without notches). As such, no "home" devices that I know of required ground connections.i have only one problem with Schuko - it is very hard to pull out of some sockets.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 06:26:50 am
content: Quote from: Pentium100 on February 28, 2012, 02:09:09 amEvoline Plugs have a lever and a slightly moving head, making it easy to pull them out. 25 seconds into the video. But nothing comes for free, they can be a pain in multiple socket outlets, and are really expensive.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 07:24:46 am
content: Quote from: Pentium100 on February 28, 2012, 02:09:09 amBut surely that's a good thing. A Schuko plug does not come loose from a bit of movement of the lead, it does not fall half out of the socket just from the weight of the cable it is connected to.Both things that I have encountered with the AUS style plugs and sockets. The sockets were probably a bit worn out, it was an old house, but you will not find this even with 50+ years old Schukos.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 03:55:44 pm
content: Quote from: gxti on February 28, 2012, 01:24:46 amI read somewhere that the US has the highest number of electrocutions per capita of the western world.The reason for polarised plugs is screw type light bulbs where the fingers can come into contact with the outside of the bulb while still live, The neutral should always be at earth potential if not there is a ground fault in the system, the center tap of the transformer should be grounded as is the center of the alternator (poly-phase system) as should the neutral where it enters the building and at points along the way,Live + neutral is one phase plus neutral in most distribution systems. What I have seen in the US is the low volt and high volt and ground all sharing the same wire, the top one going along the poles, something that is not allowed in the UK and as far as I know anywhere else in Europe at least I have not seen it in western Europe I've not been to Eastern Europe. In very dry conditions earthing stakes can develop a high resistance and it can be an idea to put water on them, Something I have had to do in many cases where I have installed power generators.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 06:03:47 pm
content: I hear that argument about screw type Edison lamp fittings but I can not see where the problem is. I must've seen, used and installed hundreds of different Edison fittings and it is not possible to get a shock on the screw thread of a bulb without sticking something thin between the lamp and the fitting on purpose. The screw part of the bulb is completely covered when the lamp is inserted enough to make contact with the outer contact of the fitting. You only need to loosen the lamp a bit for the outer contact to open.I'm not trying to be difficult here but I really don't see where the danger is supposed to be.And sticking your fingers into a live lamp socket surely has to count as extreme stupidity. The UK's Ba22d socket would give you the same nasty shock then.Maybe US Edison lamps are different to ours?Utility poles carrying HT (11kV?), three-phase domestic (3x240V), telephone and broadband/cable TV all at once are also quite common in Australia. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be allowed in Germany either.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 06:24:00 pm
content: The problem with Edison screw type bulbs is when unscrewing them when partials out and if the power is on or a single pole switch is used and the plug is not polarized the screw could be live and fingers come into contact with the screw cap.The US system that I was referring to the 11KV and 110 v are using the same wire as neutral and ground so if the earth stakes dry up or corrode you have the potential of 11 KV coming straight into the house, and as I saw this in Arizona and Florida both states which have very sandy soils and are not exactly known as being wet earth bonding is something which could fail.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 07:51:48 pm
content: Ugh, that sounds nasty. I wouldn't like to get 11kV into the house without invitation. I've seen a house that got a straight lightning hit into the roof mounted utility mast - pretty nasty. All the electrics/electronics got fried, sockets and junction boxes exploded out of the wall but the house didn't go up in flames.About the Edison bulbs: I understand what you're saying but to me it seems nigh on impossible to touch the screw while it is still electrified. There's just no room to get a finger between the fixture and the screw base of the lamp. I get the feeling I'm missing something.

author: siliconmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 08:30:20 pm
content: i think the folding plug is an excellent design.think of the boxes when packaging .it always looks ugly to me.in the uk there has to be a plug attached to any electricals that are mains powered.whats your countries law on this?

author: siliconmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 08:32:13 pm
content: when new i mean.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 08:48:03 pm
content: Quote from: gxti on February 28, 2012, 01:24:46 amKeep in mind that the US plug is typically used with 110 V (120 V) circuits, which reduces the electrocution risks. Using the same plug with the European 230 V system might result in more deaths/injuries.I would not rely on polarized sockets for safety. How many of these sockets are miswired? If it weren't for the presence of GFCIs, many sockets would have switched neutral / ground wires. Switching neutral and live would be even more likely, since this doesn't result in any apparent failures. Not to mention broken neutral connections. Depending on the impedance of the neutral connections, in some systems it's connected to PE all the way back at the transformer station. Using neutral as 'safe' potential is an artifact from the time when PE connections were uncommon in domestic installations.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 09:17:04 pm
content: Quote from: alm on February 28, 2012, 08:48:03 pmIts not the voltage that makes US power more deadly is the frequency and the harmonics particularly the third. same goes for anywhere there is 60HZ.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 09:26:02 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on February 28, 2012, 09:17:04 pmI don't think there is any particular difference between 50 and 60 Hz systems where danger of electrocution is concerned. Fundamentally mains voltages are dangerous and this danger overwhelms any subtle differences in how dead you become after electrocution.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 10:06:20 pm
content: I was told by a doctor that 60HZ is more dangerous than 50HZ due to the frequency at which the heart fibrillates.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 10:18:05 pm
content: Quote from: siliconmix on February 28, 2012, 08:30:20 pmI think it is the same through the EU.Neil

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 11:57:22 pm
content: Quote from: david77 on February 28, 2012, 06:03:47 pmBack in the day when I worked for Telecom Australia,running telephone cables on power poles was strictly forbidden!Pole routes had to be spaced away from the Electricity poles,& in any case,pole routes were virtually extinct,with phone lines normally underground,& long distance systems microwave ,optical,or buried broadband cable.I read sometime back that Pay TV or Broadband to houses were going to be put on power poles,& my reaction was of horror!The wonders of opening your communications market to competition!Optic fibre may be OK,though.On the original subject,folding plugs are an open invitation to damage every time you fold them.You will notice which section of the Uni designed it!Every few years,someone comes up with a "wonderful" idea,& it gets a bit of media time,before everybody realises it is impractical,& it sinks like a stone.A classic case of this is Architects with round houses.Nobody makes round furniture!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 29, 2012, 03:26:37 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 28, 2012, 11:57:22 pmWhat did kind Arthur's knights sit around while they were eating their hash browns?http://whobuysthisstuff.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/dsc05235.jpghttp://www.google.com.au/search?q=round+furniture&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Hwv&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=gJpNT6uGFauQiQeI0ulv&ved=0CJEBELAE&biw=1366&bih=605

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2012, 04:16:18 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 28, 2012, 11:57:22 pmI never really thought too much about that before.Here is a typical situation in England that I remember because I used to drive past it every day on the way to work (yeah, I used to look up at the poles to see what was on them when I was driving past them):http://g.co/maps/9z56aThe 11 kV comes in from the left across the fields to feed the pole mounted transformer. It is connected in three phase delta formation with no neutral and no earth. The 240 V secondary is in Y formation with three live wires and neutral. The neutral is probably connected to earth at the foot of the pole though it is hard to see.The 11 kV and 240 V systems are well separated to prevent accidental contact. To the right of the picture there is a telephone pole, separated from the power poles. I guess you don't want 240 V accidentally feeding your telephone...A curious thing about UK power distribution is that the distribution poles don't have to follow a right of way. They can go freely across public and private property with wild abandon. The same is actually true of the transmission grid--look at the location of this tower:http://g.co/maps/5dyywSuch a thing would be entirely unseen in the USA.

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2012, 05:51:29 am
content: Interesting. Where I live, I have not seen pole mounted transformers. The last transformers (that step down to 230V) are big* and power a whole block (or a few multi-flat buildings), the 230V underground (or above ground) cables then go to each house.*The transformers are housed in buildings about 10m x 10m x 6m, I do not know the size of the actual transformer inside.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2012, 10:43:19 am
content: In the UK pole transformers tend to be in rural areas. cables are supposed to cross each other as close to a right-angle as possible to minimize induction ( you run cable parallel for any distance you will get induced voltage) and be sepperated by a minimum distance which is why you seeWhen utilities run cable routes they have to pay wayleaves to the person on who's land the poles are on but they have statutory powers to erect said poles so they can take the best route for that suites the the job.

author: LEECH666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2012, 01:28:43 am
content: Sorry OT:Probably the face to old plugs when he sees his younger pal. :O//EDIT:I just realized I have too much time at my hands, considdering that it is 3 am in the morning and I have to get ready for work in 3 hours.