wanting to get a first time scope - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Jbates58
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 11:16:33 am
content: hello alli am wanting to get my first scope, mainly for hobby use, but want to be able to measure heaps of stuff (what ever it may be) and not have to many limiting factors, but i am unsure what i should look at getting or what i should spend. i was perhaps thinking of the lower end rigol ds2000 scope that i can unlock and get more features out of. but if thats not a good idea, then i am open to sugestions.would like to keep it to say around the $500 mark. and would like 4 chanel, but if i have to stick with 2 then that will do.i realy have no idea what to get, i have a bit of experience with one of the jaycar scopes we used to have at work, but i no longer work there.cheersJason

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 11:28:07 am
content: Welcome to the forum.Quote from: Jbates58 on May 23, 2016, 11:16:33 amThat'll be a Siglent rebrand, IIRC a SDS1000CNLseries.Good little basic scope but lacking in memory depth.The CML range has the larger 2M memory depth.

author: Jbates58
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 11:40:18 am
content: cheers bud, i will look into it. what would i have to spend to get a decent scope then? if its not alot more then i can extend the budget to accomodate.but i want to understand what i get for the extra if that makes sense.JasonQuote from: tautech on May 23, 2016, 11:28:07 am

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 11:50:11 am
content: Here in NZ I beat the pants off Jaycar for pricing and you should be able to as well.Trio are your main Siglent distributor(there might be others, not sure) and here's their Siglent page:http://www.triotest.com.au/shop/234-siglent

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 12:35:48 pm
content: What you need depends on what your electronic interests (in general) are.E.g. someone playing around with guitar effects boxes and the occasional Arduino has completely different needs to a ham building VHF band digital repeaters, and there's a wide spectrum of needs in-between.Tying up big $$$ in a piece of kit you barely understand and only utilise 5% of its capabilities, only makes sense if you have money to burn and need instant gratification. Otherwise, post your current electronics interests and what you hope to get into in the next three years, and let the gurus here steer you to something that matches your needs. Worst case, if you outgrow it and cant justify keeping a second scope, a well cared for, lightly used, recent model scope should sell on for up to half its most recent retail price.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 01:45:49 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on May 23, 2016, 12:35:48 pmThis is the right way to think about it. There's no point in spending a whole lot of money when you don't even know your region of interest. Why not start with something simple and, later on, if things pick up, buy something else.I had a Heathkit 10 MHz scope for a long time and managed to get projects built. About 12 years ago, I stepped up to a Tek 485 which is a 350 MHz scope ($200 on eBay) and a few weeks ago I picked up Rigol DS1054Z. The Rigol has nowhere near the bandwidth of the Tek, even if I hack it. But it does offer some amount of serial stream decoding. The reason I bought it is I wanted 4 channels at some reasonable bandwidth so I could display serial buses whether they are decoded or not. I wanted 4 channels. I'll keep the Tek around for any high frequency stuff and I just don't do much above 100 MHz and, more often than not, I'm down around 20 MHz (maybe 50 MHz).No matter which scope you buy, there is always one just a little better for twice as much money. If you don't drive a stake in the ground (price), things can get pretty expensive.It would be unwise to take Internet recommendations seriously. There are only two kinds of scopes ever mentioned: The piece of crap they just got rid of and 2) the brand new scope they just got. Substitute model numbers as you will.Even if the differences between models are enumerated, how can you, as a first time buyer, possibly evaluate the utility of all the features.Buy something, learn to use it, learn which shortcomings (and they all have shortcomings) matter to you and then sell one, buy another one.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 03:28:01 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on May 23, 2016, 12:35:48 pmThis is really sensible advice.Quote from: rstofer on May 23, 2016, 01:45:49 pmThis too.Quote from: rstofer on May 23, 2016, 01:45:49 pmAnd this, after a heap of other replies, ranging from the informative to the infuriating, is the answer you are going to get.I'm only half-joking (or half-serious, depending on your "glass-vision"), but the ~$500 restricts the choice to few models, though you also mention the DS2000 series which starts from about $800.The DS1054Z is (notwithstanding some FW bugs) still a very good value for money, but have a look at comparable offers from Siglent and GW Instek, maybe Owon? (plenty of threads on these forums, and many videos from Dave and others).I would advise against getting and old CRO, unless it's an incredible deal, DSO are so much more convenient: single trigger, small bench size and power consumption, digital decode etc...Personally, I went for the Rigol DS1054Z and I'm currently quite satisfied for what I need as a hobbyist: MCUs, audio, no RF. I would not trade the four channels for slightly better performances in other respects.

author: Aodhan145
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 03:34:22 pm
content: Before spending a lot of money try get a cro. Either buy a cheap one or see if anybody is happy enough to part with a spare one. Even if I had a DSO I would probably keep my cro around they are really nice to use only thing they are missing really is single shot capturing and precise measurement of frequency and voltage as you have to do that by eye.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 03:53:48 pm
content: Quote from: newbrain on May 23, 2016, 03:28:01 pmRight after I said to be wary of Internet opinions, I could hardly come right out and say my DS1054Z is a pretty nice scope. It is, I like it, but it's still an Internet opinion. For me, it works well. I mostly work on uC and FPGA projects with external signals at 50 MHz or less, usually around 20 MHz. So, sure, a 4 channel scope for $400 is pretty compelling.The naysayers do have a point: There may very well be some bugs at the margins. Whether anybody would really care is left to debate, some people work at the margins. For me, the remaining known bugs are of no concern. Maybe they get resolved over time, maybe not. I doubt that I will ever run into them.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 04:14:48 pm
content: I hope you guys are right because I just ordered the DS1054Z. Then right after, I thought I should have gone with the DS2072A because it will have something I'll need before I need the 4 channels. The next steps up really did not seem worth the extra money. I still have reservations about my choice because I now have a working Tek 2213. I think Dave mentioned it before, too bad they don't offer a DS2074A...I'm not so worried about the obscure bugs of the DS1054Z, just some capability I'm not yet aware of that I'll be missing. I recently read that X-Y is so slow it's barely usable, or not? I should have the scope later this week. I'm sure I'll be happy with the new-age DSO in general though...

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 04:18:53 pm
content: it's usable but annoying because of how slow it is.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 04:34:47 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on May 23, 2016, 04:18:53 pmI guess I haven't noticed that. I turn the knobs, the scales change, the display changes and away we go!I have READ about the problem but I haven't EXPERIENCED it. Maybe it's real and I just haven't stumbled across it, maybe I don't know 'fast' because I don't have the latest super-duper-whizz-bang scope but, either way, I don't see it.Is it a problem that MATTERS for a first-time scope user at the hobby level?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 04:41:51 pm
content: Quote from: metrologist on May 23, 2016, 04:14:48 pmI suggested above that you skip all Internet opinions!Just use the scope! If you find a limitation, work around it. This is my first DSO but I have a bunch of experience with a CRO. To use a CRO successfully, you often have to come up with a way to trigger it. You sometimes have to change the nature of the problem so that it can be forced to repeat often enough for a non-storage scope. One shot with storage simply doesn't exist. Deal with it!If you can't get the answer to the question you have, change the question!

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 04:44:38 pm
content: as i saidit is annoyingscope's speed/responsiveness is okay-to-good* for most of the time, with 1 or 2 channels on. when i switch on the third channel it starts getting slowish, with fft is slow and in x-y is really slow (and i need to use slow timebases to get a fluent image)that's strange and it might be an issue on my unit? that's possible. another fellow who bought the 1054 from the same retailer i did is having big troubles to get the serial triggering working, as i do. mine comes from a new shipment because the retailer had them just back in stock when i ordered it(speed is in sense of responsiveness of the interface/update rate)(*and at work i have to use a tek tps2014! its responsiveness is slowish-to-okay to me)i also find other things annoying in this scope, like the fact that when you move the trace up and down it skips some updates (a 15yo battery powered tek doesn't) and only after you move it the 0V indicator updates. it would have been much better to me the other way: move the cursor so you know where the 0 volt is if you can't keep up with updating the waveform and moving it at the same time... but that's just minor nuisances that I, me, myself find annoying at times

author: danadak
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 04:48:18 pm
content: I have a scope collection spanning 1 Mhz to 10 Ghz, analog as well as DSO.Recently bought the DS1054Z, hacked it to 100 Mhz, installed latest firmware, and very happy with it.Not perfect, but neither are my other 40+ scopes.I consider it one of the best buys I have done. It now gets the most 49% usage in the collection, a Tek754A the another 49%, and a 7104 Tek ( 1 Ghz analog) the remaining.Regards, Dana.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 05:48:06 pm
content: So I stuffed a 3.125 MHz square wave into the DS1054Z and displayed the FFT. It took less than a second to compute and display the values. Then I played around with the cursors and, voila', the spikes are at the odd harmonics and the value decreases with increasing harmonic number. Yup! A square wave is the sum of the odd harmonics from DC to daylight!But here's the thing about FFT, from my point of view. I studied it in college (way back in '72 or so) and used it exactly ONCE during my entire career and that was looking at the harmonics generated by a 12 pulse rectifier system. Not your bench top rectifier, mind you, this thing could put out 20 MW and I was concerned about the heating effects of the harmonics on the main transformers that stepped 115 kV down to 12 kV. The big leagues. Parallel 14 MVA transformers.Considering the time it took me to figure out the cursors on the DS1054Z, the time to display was insignificant (to me).To be fair, I never spent any time working as an electronics engineer, I was into electrical. Electronics guys will have more use for FFT in a day than I did in a career. But I have never used it for my electronics hobby either. It just hasn't come up!I would have loved to have had the DS1054Z back when I was in school! But digital scopes hadn't been invented, LEDs were just coming out and TTL was king although a lot of folks were still using DTL and even RTL.

author: Kappes Buur
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 06:53:55 pm
content: http://www.tequipment.net/oscilloscopes/http://www.saelig.com/category/PSBE.htmRead the specs and take your pick.Then find a distributor near you.

author: Jbates58
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 08:47:49 pm
content: another thing is what about the usb scope offerings? or even the little diy scopes that i can build? i understand that they are nowhere in the legue of a proper scope.so lets say the stake in the ground is at the $500 mark. and am happy with second hand aswell as internet purchase. i have no preferance to bands, and while 4 channel could be usefull, i will got for a 2 channel as it may offer more options on choice.my main intrests will be arduino and other mcu stuff. nothing like radio or anything.and just getting into electronics more seriously than i have in the past, i am looking into building a desk psu that can have adjustable voltage and curent, but would like something that offers about 25-30a current. just struggling to find it so will look into DIY for that, but thats another topic. same as wanting to get a soldering station. but will leave that for later.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 11:47:06 pm
content: The USB scopes don't tend to be highly regarded around here and Dave Jones has done a review on this (I think). There are a lot of reasons, not the least of which is limited features.HOWEVER, I personally highly regard the Digilent Analog Discovery because I get an entire workbench in a single instrument and as long as I stay within its capability, the results will be outstanding. But it requires reading the manual. You can't measure mains voltages. Likely you can't read higher voltages for PSUs. You can, however, build voltage dividers with a couple of resistors.https://reference.digilentinc.com/analog_discovery_2:refmanualFor $279, you get a fairly reasonable piece of equipment: 2 channel function generator, 2 channel scope, 16 channel logic analyzer, digital multimeter, dual adjustable power supplies (with very limited current) plus other features that are math based like FFT and a network analyzer (Bode' plots of phase and amplitude versus frequency). You can install the Waveforms software and play with the Demo device just to see what's going on.I have version 1 but I still bought a DS1054Z because there are times when only a real scope will do. And I'm not tossing my 350 MHz Tek 485.I'm going to suggest that backing up to a 2 channel scope, a real scope, is a bit of a mistake. It is much easier to diagnose the SPI bus with 3 channels and a 4th channel for the trigger (CS' going low). You really do want to see the relationship between MISO, MOSI, Clk and CS'.I can toss that Analog Discovery in my PC backpack if I have to go somewhere. Sure, I could get a suitcase to carry the stuff it replaces but it's just not the same.Your topic is debated endlessly. There are no right answers except the DS1054Z and even that is just another Internet opinion. $400 and you're good to go.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 11:54:11 pm
content: Quote from: Jbates58 on May 23, 2016, 08:47:49 pmSo, you will be looking at PWM, SPI and perhaps I2C. The DS1054Z will decode the two serial buses (along with a bunch of other stuff) but after the free trial version you will need to 'hack' the scope to retain the features. This matter is dealt with extensively elsewhere. I haven't done mine yet but I probably will. It involves running a program to change one of the ID numbers - I have forgotten which one. No big deal, it's done all the time. You get 100 MHz from a 50 MHz scope plus about a dozen decoding options. I think Dave has done a video about this as well. Or at least mentioned it.QuoteWhat in the world are you going to do with that much power? I don't even have a bench supply and if I did, it would be +- 15V at maybe an amp and +5 at maybe 3A. Adding 3.3V would be nice but not required. I certainly don't want enough power to test cold fusion.Wall warts work well and most things like the Arduino run off the USB cable until the peripherals get too heavy. Then the peripherals can be powered separately through a wall wart. Obviously, big motors take a different set of options. Rechargeable batteries come to mind.Limiting the available fault current also limits how fast the magic smoke comes out of devices when the outputs are hit with a little 'oopsie'.

author: Jbates58
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 01:33:32 am
content: For other various things i do. I am also heavily involved in the auto scene and 12v scene. So extra current is always a bonus. True i most likely wont need that much current past the 14v mark. But why not.I will look into the DS1054Z. Just to check though, that can be modified to the higher level scopes? Thats prety cool if it can be all for under $500Jason.

author: arobincaron
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 02:08:42 am
content: Another internet opinion: I bought a USB based DSO -- the Hantek 6022BE. It was cheap. It kinda did what it said it was going to do. Keep in mind there's tons of limitations. But the real problem is the software had so many issues with crashes and inconsistencies (e.g. time base shows 100ms but it's showing a microsecond sized signal).There are multiple open source projects to try to overcome the software limitation. After pondering what to do next I realized that I wanted a scope to troubleshoot the projects I was working on instead of figuring I can trust what the scope is reporting. That was enough to convince me that buying a low-end DSO was a better choice (for me).After looking at the forums here and elsewhere I chose a Rigol DS1054Z. It's an excellent choice for my current use -- small micro controller (Atmel832, STM32).

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 02:52:56 am
content: Quote from: Jbates58 on May 24, 2016, 01:33:32 amHere is one incantation of the process but you must use code DSER even though it is not shown.http://hackaday.com/2014/11/12/how-to-get-50-more-zed-from-your-rigol-ds1054z/http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/You can also search the Test Equipment forum here on eevblog for more information.See page 82, reply 2030 here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg875741/?topicseen#msg875741You will run across the hack on MANY threads here at eevblog as well as through Google.I will eventually have to sit down and think about it.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 02:57:27 am
content: Quote from: arobincaron on May 24, 2016, 02:08:42 amThe Digilent Waveforms software is excellent. It does exactly what it supposed to do and, so far, I haven't seen any stumbles. There is also an SDK and there is at least one audio analyzer application.http://www.thestuffmade.com/AudioAnalyzerSuite/Help

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 03:36:32 am
content: Quote from: Jbates58 on May 23, 2016, 11:16:33 amRegardless of what you get, make sure it has reasonable screen resolution e.g. 800 x 480. The ones Jaycar are currently advertising are 480 x 234 and 320 x 234.

author: Jbates58
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 10:26:07 am
content: ok, i have decided to get the DS1054Z. i read somewhere that the tequipment.net site that is highly recomended on here offeres a discount for eev members. would someone please be able to pm me the code if possible?Jason

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 12:48:18 pm
content: Quote from: Jbates58 on May 24, 2016, 10:26:07 amSee this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-members-discount-at-tequipment/