Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: zorthgo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2012, 02:39:08 pm
content: Hi guys, I am trying to build an electronics lab so I can get some hands on experience in designing and building electronic/embedded systems. Last week I bought the x-Tronic 6040 rework station as my first piece of equipment for my "lab". Now I am looking to get an oscilloscope (don't really know how or why to use one, but apparently all electronics lab has one, so I guess I will need one). I am looking at the Rigol DS1102D and the DS1102E. The DS1102E would be perfect price wise, while the DS1102D is kind of pushing it but I might be able to swing it. So the question is... Can anyone tell me if either of these two would cover all my electronic needs for a least a while as I am learning electronics? Maybe something that is comparable but cheaper. I only chose these because I saw them on Dave's blog.Ps. My major at school is Computer Engineering, so I am looking to use these mainly in embedded systems design with analog component and maybe some RF stuff.Thanks for the help!

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2012, 03:53:44 pm
content: Honest advice? Don't buy any tool until you actually need it. Both the scopes you mention are current models and are available off the shelf at short notice, so don't even bother until you reach the point where you have a real circuit you need to probe.For embedded design and RF you might find that both the models you suggest are a bit short on bandwidth, depending on exactly what it is you're looking to probe. If you want to examine I2C and SPI buses then fine, but a 100 MHz scope won't show you anything very useful on, for example, a 50 MHz external memory bus.

author: felixd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2012, 07:49:04 pm
content: Hi,Please find this video:What I've bought is:- Analog: Tektronix 2336 YA(100MHz, 2ch) - 2335 has similar spec, but has no digital counter.Dave's teardown of Tektronix 2225 -- Digital: Owon DS8102V(100MHz, 2ch, 2GSa/s shared - when two channels are used then 1GSa/s for each,10M sample memory !!This one has big, nice screen 800x600, 2GSa/s and BIG memory ! That is why I bought this one.

author: zorthgo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2012, 01:13:21 pm
content: Thanks AndyC_772 for the advice. But I have some circuits that I want to build already. Specially the ones from Electronics I class. I would also like to see how the signal would change when going through a diode, resistor, inductor, transistor, etc. I think that an oscilloscope would help in that (correct me if I am wrong since I have never used one).Hey felixd, thanks for the videos. I watched the first video that Dave put out on the Tektronix 2225. But had not seen this second one. I understand (at least now I do) that I need the most bandwidth I can afford. The problem is that those 100mhz+ oscilloscopes are over $1,000 bucks and thus way over my budget. After watching the videos, I was hopping that I could get a 100mhz analog one to learn how to use an oscilloscope and once I know what I am doing upgrade to a much bigger one. I can probably get one on ebay for about $200. What do you guys think?

author: felixd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2012, 01:40:54 pm
content: Why 100MHz oscilloscopes cost more than 1,000$ ?I've bought my Owon DS8102V for 666.6666666666667 $ =] LOOOL (just calculeted it now, changed from PLN to USD hahahaha). DEVIL price !

author: zorthgo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2012, 02:00:04 pm
content: I meant to say oscilloscopes that are over 100 mhz. Like 350mhz or 500 mhz are over $1,000. Although I was looking at a used Tektronix TEK 2465A for $527.00 (which is 350mhz) on ebay. So, in you opinion a 100mhz scope would not satisfy my needs at least for a while? (Ps. for embedded design, I am currently using the V2 ColdFire microcontrollers).

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2012, 02:18:58 pm
content: you should focus on what you intend to do with it. I dont think you can do anything with a single scope.if you want to analog design, audio, rf, go to a used analog scope with 350+MHz bandwithif you want to do mostly microcontroler stuff, buy a digital récent one with as most as memory as possibleif it can interpret i2c spi etc it's a plus, but it's more expensive ...or for small budget, an old used good analog/digital scope with limited memory, and a small device like the open logic snifferreally cheap and good for small needs (but you need a computer to connect to and see...)http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/open-workbench-logic-sniffer-p-612.html?cPath=174

author: zorthgo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2012, 02:35:05 pm
content: Thanks kripton2035 for the help! I am really lost here! I would hate to waste money on something that won't do me any good. I intend to work mostly with microcontroller stuff. When you say memory, are you referring to the bandwidth (mhz) or something else? Would you perhaps know of equipment that I could find for below $1k that would meet my needs for a while? Thanks!

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2012, 02:45:04 pm
content: If you want to microcontrollers and stuff, use the right tools for the job. Use a logic analyzer like the logic sniffer that's cheap.You can go up to 200MHz on that thing across 16 channels, or 100MHz across 32 channels if you buy the add-on "wing"

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2012, 03:50:18 pm
content: Quote from: zorthgo on October 08, 2012, 02:35:05 pmthis is a nice tool today to do microcontroler stuff : Hameg - HMO722 - Oszilloskop, 2+8 Kanal 70 MHz, 2 GSa/s (around 1150 €)but you need an additionnal logic probe HO3508 that costs 300€and the decoding i2c spi uart software to install in the scope HO010 (300€)but you can buy the scope first (it exists also in 100MHz and also 2 channels instead of 4 but this is not an upgradable feature)and you can buy the logic probe and the software later when you need it you still have a usefull scope...the rigol you named formerly doesnt have any interpret software available, and in my mind it's a big no no ...I have and use an old fluke pm3394 4x200MHz analog/digital scope I bought used years ago. and a logic sniffer !very nice only limited memory but it was huge at this time ...

author: shebu18
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2012, 03:55:44 pm
content: For the 600€ of accessories you could buy a rigol and a log sniffer and some "nerd food" and start exploring stuff.Sent from my GT-I5800 using Tapatalk

author: tlu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2012, 09:14:50 pm
content: Hi Zorthgo,What are you located? I have two 100Mhz analog scope in excellent condition if you are interested. If you are anywhere in the US I maybe able to ship it to you. Let me know if that is an option for you. Both are going for $180.Thanks,Tim

author: zorthgo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2012, 02:50:36 am
content: Thanks kripton2035! Than Hameg is a beauty. But I was thinking about it and the price is really steep for a learning tool. Although I definitely want one of those in the future, I think I will go with getting an analog scope + a logic sniffer for now until I actually know what I am doing. Right now I can't justify spending over $2000 for the 100MHZ since I barely know how to use them. Since I can't even understand a quarter of what you guys are saying, I feel a little apprehensive about dropping that much dough. But thanks for the suggestion.Can you tell me what I should be looking for on an analog oscilloscope in order to be able to pair it with the logic sniffer so that I can use it for embedded design? Thanks again!Thanks for the suggestion T4P! I guess I'll be going that way.

author: zorthgo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2012, 02:53:25 am
content: A more specific question would be... Would a 100mhz analog scope with a logic sniffer be enough to get my feet wet in the world of embedded design? Thanks!

author: zorthgo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2012, 03:12:29 am
content: Sorry for all the questions but, is a PHILIPS FLUKE PM3394 200 MHZ OSCILLOSCOPE for $650 + tax + shipping a good price?

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2012, 06:38:25 am
content: I would say they are around $400 at these days.but it depends on the seller... if it is fully calibrated, with a warranty then $650 is ok.

author: zorthgo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2012, 12:17:11 am
content: Can anyone tell me anything about the OWON SDS8102 100MHz 2GSa/s Deep Memory Digital Storage Oscilloscope 2-channel with LAN interface? There's not much on that particular oscilloscope. Thanks!

author: tlu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2012, 12:06:09 pm
content: Quote from: zorthgo on October 10, 2012, 12:17:11 amCheck out mermad's review of the sds7102 on youtube which is the same scope but it's 100Mhz bandwidth instead of 200Mhz.

author: zorthgo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2012, 02:11:16 pm
content: Thanks guys for all the help! I have learned so much about oscilloscope in the last week with all of you help, the blogs here. YOU GUYS ROCK!I am pretty sure I am going with the Owon SDS8102 or Owon SDS8202. But Like many suggested I will also buy an old analog oscilloscope off ebay so I can get a feeling for that technology. My fear of getting a used analog oscilloscope is also because I wouldn't know if it is calibrated or not. But if I have another scope to compare the two I think I will be able to manage!And again... Thanks for all the help!

author: larry42
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2012, 04:13:43 pm
content: Hi, IMOYou don't need a 200MHz analog scope, 60 to 100MHz is plenty. Calibration is not an issue. Analog scopes aren't particularly accurate anyway.I have a Hameg HMO1524 (plus analog scope or two) - got that one because it does 100MHz at 1mV/div. Would generally not bother with off brands like owon, but I guess their support and SW QA has become better nowadaysSent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2012, 04:29:19 pm
content: +1 you really cannot compare hameg to owon ...

author: zorthgo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2012, 02:13:24 am
content: Can't compare the price either!

author: tlu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2012, 11:35:12 pm
content: For the price, the Owon is an excellent scope in its class. The hardware supports some of the major name brands and their technology according some uses a single fast ADC so no interleaving of the ADC is required.A scope is just a tool as I have found out and it depends on what you want to do with that tool. There is reviews that puts the 3 low-end dso on this forum. You should take a look at them. It reviews the Rigol DS1102E vs Hantek DSO5062B vs Owon SDS7102. All 3 scopes have their good and bad side.Tim

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2012, 12:53:09 am
content: Rant mode = on.....I know Dave has a whole video about analog scopes, and everyone keeps suggesting them to people, but seriously? For someone doing embedded systems design, an analog scope's main purpose is to look cool in your lab and collect dust. The main strength of an analog scope, especially the old ones people sell for under 100 USD, is to look at nice repetitive analog signals. They answer questions like "how much does that cheap opamp distort the sine wave and what is approximately the amplitude". Or, "What is the time constant on that filter if I run it with a square wave".If you are doing basic embedded digital design, you need a scope with single shot memory captures that you can zoom in on. That is the #1 thing you will use the most on a scope. Stuff like looking at data bursts, signal glitches, and voltage levels during events. None of that is repetitive in the nature that makes them easy to measure on an analog scope. And as a bonus, the DSO will do all of the basic analog scoping with the ability to accurately measure and report all the values like amplitude, frequency, duty cycle and stuff like that right on the screen with way more accuracy than counting boxes. The traces will be different colors so you can actually tell them apart on the screen too. 100mhz is fine, but as always, buy as much bandwidth as you can afford. Also don't go too old on used DSOs. DSO technology exploded recently, especially in the low end. Even with 10 year old tech, it's like model-T vs Ferrari.You probably can't get away with just having a logic analyzer since you will need to see how circuits effect analog voltages, but having both is the ticket here. Just the scope should be good enough to start and add a logic analyzer later. Or get one you can later upgrade with the LA option.I'm going to get flamed for this, but I'm going to say it anyway. Despite what people might tell you, there is no real good reason to own an analog scope for general purpose use these days if you can get your hands on a decent DSO. If you need one of the specific reasons an analog scope is better, you already have a nice one right next to your nice DSO on the bench. You don't see Dave using that analog hameg on a daily basis unless he's looking at an XY screen saver. There is a reason for that. Save the money and put it towards a DSO. Pick up the analog scope later when you want to make your lab look cooler. If you are considering spending 600 bucks, you can probably afford the rigol2000 series. You probably won't regret it either from what I've been hearing.On a separate note, if you are just starting out in the analog world and want to see how various component configurations effect circuits and such, I've found the best way to do that is in a simulator. Pspice is pretty easy to use as they go. You don't have to have a huge stock of components and equipment and you can try any value you want just by changing some text. I know it's kind of cheating, but you should have a solid intuition of how circuits work and this is the fastest way to experiment. Plus you probably won't let the smoke out of spice.Rant mode = off... (sorry)

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2012, 06:40:48 am
content: dave "plays" currently with an agilent 4x500 dso (or mso ?) scope ...that's NOT comparable with a basic analog scope ...

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2012, 07:09:08 am
content: Smokey, you are right, i never thought I say that, i love analog scopes and have a bunch of them. I had a Rigol DS1102D and at that time I till needed my analog scopes, for most for accuracy The Rigol was 3 % and not to recalibrate and if you move the trace across the screen measurement values varied very much. Also it missed a lot of things like glitsches and runts.The analog scopes were 2 or 3% but I calibrated them to the highest level my equipement allowed and they showed all signals.But since I have a 350MHz Hameg MSO I agree, there are only some very special thing left I "need " an analog scope for. And this because i have a few Tek 7000 and a 547 with a lot of special plugins. So things like, a transistor risetime plugin, opamp plugin, 1 to 6GHz sampling, fast TDR, uV differential or differential slideback-comperator plugins ect.For the topic starter, first buy a 20 to 50 dollar old analoge 50 MHz scope with two probes, play with it, learn to use it and when you know what you need buy a decent scope. If you aske around you probably can get a scope for free. I recently received a 50 MHz Tek 453, it was advertised to collect for free and nobody had reacted so the owner mailed me if I wanted it for my Tek collection ( and because it was a very early version ( 1966) i was happy with it. It still works exelent is in great shape and allmost no calibration was needed.

author: zorthgo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2012, 04:44:54 am
content: Hi Smokey, I have been using a simulator for my electronics I class. It is called Multisim 10.1. But I would like to start actually getting my hands dirty with some circuits. At least for me... Theoretical knowledge is fine and all, but I like to actually putting that knowledge to use.I do have a question about the Rigol DS2000. If I buy the 72mhz (DS2072), would I be able to buy a software upgrade to make it into a 100mhz? I really wanted to stay around $500 - $600 but I guess I can go up to $800.When you guys say that I could get an analog oscilloscope for less than $100, are you talking about those 20mhz scopes?Ps. Hey Smokey, I actually enjoyed the rant!

author: LoyalServant
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2012, 05:46:20 am
content: You can get quite a few analog scopes for less than $100 on ebay.I regularly see 100Mhz scopes for less than $100.Smokey: Agree with you with one caveat.When I first got into electronics there were no digital scopes.....Perhaps I am just an old fart but I abhor these new fangled DSOs with the "auto" button on them.My personal opinion is that our grasshoppers learn to use analog scopes first.I have seen too many punch the "auto" button and I cringe.....Maybe I am just holding on too tight.... who knows.Nevertheless, I do agree with your "rant" if that is what you want to call it.I don't see why you would get flamed.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2012, 08:01:45 am
content: I think the OP needs a DSO for what he intends to do.This doesn't make a DSO the automatic instrument of choice for all things,however.If you are using a 'scope as the primary instrument when troubleshooting & repairing a wide range of equipment,an analog Oscilloscope is a pretty hard act to follow.With your 'scope showing an untriggered continuous sweep in DC coupled mode,you can get a good idea of circuit voltages,check for the presence of desired signals,hum,spurii,etc.If something looks a bit funny,you can then adjust the 'scope to look at it more closely.With the same settings,set your trace to the screen centre line with no input,& you have a large display centre zero DC voltmeter,which is great for setting up nulls on bridges,etc.None of the DSOs I have had anything to do with could run a continuous sweep of this nature without any input--maybe some newer ones can.A comment I have made on a number of occasions,is about the inability of some DSO's to display a full field of an analog video signal without major distortion of the display due to aliasing.The ability to display such a signal is an important requirement when looking for low frequency perturbations of the signal,such as AC hum,clamp pulse breakthrough,etc.OK,analog TV is obsolete in many countries,but the same requirement exists for any HF signal which may be affected by low frequency artifacts.The usual reaction is:-"Silly OF!!",followed by a demonstration of howtheirDSO can display individual lines in a field.Nice,but not what I was talking about!!

author: zorthgo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2012, 07:44:52 am
content: Ok Guys, I just pulled the trigger, and went with an Owon SDS8102. (I couldn't resist the specs)Thanks for all the help!

author: Dread
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2012, 07:08:50 pm
content: Dave answered that previous question in his recent video.No you cannot update a Rigol 2000 series scopes BW.And that is a deal killer.I know we have a lot of Ham Operators on this forum and 70MHz is just not going to cut it for the Hams, so now it's the full Monty Rigol on day one or look elsewhere.

author: Dread
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2012, 07:13:30 pm
content: Quote from: zorthgo on October 14, 2012, 07:44:52 amI think you will like the Owon, I have a 8202 and have been very happy with it.BTW you should really get the Battery pack; it's a really good investment.Enjoy your Owon and let us know what you think.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2012, 07:49:37 pm
content: Analog or digital, a scope is only going to be able to perform within its spec. An analog scope is just a beam being deflected after all. If you are getting aliasing you probably need more bandwidth or more memory.I've never had any problems with untriggered roll on the 10 year old tek DSO in our lab. If it weren't for the small sample memory, it would still be a decent daily driver. The cheapy instek in the test stations is only 70mhz and does the job 90% of the time when I steal it for engineering. Its far from a toy, even at the low price.About the only time I ever hit the autoset button is when I'm in window mode with some wacky zoom timebase and it would take more button presses to get back to a standard display. Autoset as a crutch is lame, but just because its there doesn't mean you have to use it.I do have mad respect for all the guys that were at the cutting edge back in the day with only analog scopes. You really had to know your stuff and be able to infer all the stuff the scope couldn't tell you directly.I think its kind of funny that RF keeps popping up in these discussions. That is such a special case that needs specialized gear. With integrated RF chips these days its easier to design than back in the day, but still not something a beginner would get into for a long time.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2012, 09:05:26 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on October 14, 2012, 07:49:37 pmRF is hardly a "special case" for many people who either make their living out of Radio equipment,or have Ham Radio for a hobby.RF,as it affects "digital people" is mainly UHF & above,but to the rest of us,RF starts where AF ends."Hams" particularly,have frequency allocations from 1.8MHz up to tens of GHz.Obviously,the top end of that range,is not really Oscilloscope territory--more Spec An work,& fairly fancy ones too.In HF & VHF,'scopes are often used for signal tracing,etc,& needing to see a signal around 147MHz is fairly common.100MHz analog Oscilloscopescandisplay RF signals of up to around 200MHz,although,obviously their sensitivity & calibration can no longer be relied on.If it comes to that,a 10MHz OHL analog "cheapy" can display a useable signal at around 27MHz!By & large,DSOs cannot.

author: zorthgo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2012, 08:21:08 pm
content: Thanks for the advice Dread! I was planing on getting the battery so I could lug it around with me. (just in case I need it)

author: tlu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2012, 08:32:38 pm
content: Zorthgo, how much did you get the scope for?

author: zorthgo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2012, 09:04:30 pm
content: $600 fromwww.saelig.com.