Developing HDMI output for DS1054Z, need development partner with opened scope - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: sgilson99
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 12, 2022, 10:01:36 pm
content: I finally received my new Rigol DS1054Z. Lovely machine. The only bad thing I hear about it is the lack of a VGA or HDMI output.I'm a retired hardware engineer, and have designed a VGA/HDMI output add-on that I plan to sell for a reasonable amount. However, my wife doesn't think its a good idea to void the 3 year warranty by opening it up (imagine!). Well, she bought it for me, so she wins.What I'm looking for is someone who has a DS1054Z that has already been opened up, and is willing to work with me to validate the new hardware. They should have a monitor with VGA and HDMI inputs, and know how to take the scope apart and perhaps measure a few voltages. The mod is minimally invasive and reversible.What they get is to keep the prototype, and also get one of the finished units when they start shipping. Plus bragging rights.Thoughts/ideas/comments? Please message me directly.Thanks!Scott

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2022, 07:58:11 am
content: Is it worth ? This model is aged and the successor already have this

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2022, 09:22:27 am
content: Quote from: sgilson99 on September 12, 2022, 10:01:36 pmYou're developing a product to sell but not willing to spend $400 on a scope for development?Do you seriously expect to be able to develop & test such a product without having your own unit to test with ?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2022, 09:45:50 am
content: not to mention risk of damaging a dso that has no warranty anymore, the time spent going back and forth, and... how minimally invasive? where do you tap?

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2022, 01:21:51 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on September 13, 2022, 09:45:50 amOne can only tap on the LCD connector, the used iMX chip has no native HDMI or VGA, if the tapping is done properly with a dual flex cable PCB with in and out LCD connectors and a small FPGA or TI TFP410 chip for HDMI/VGA conversion it can work, not sure if will have a commercial success, but maybe it opens the way for a generic adapter.Application Note:https://www.ti.com/lit/an/slla559/slla559.pdfI'm willing to test the mod, if it doesn't involve invasive soldering on the board and OP is willing to ship to Germany.Cheers,DC1MC

author: sgilson99
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 09:38:29 pm
content: Thanks for all the feedback.Is it worth it? For me, it's a fun retirement project, and if a few people buy it I'd recoup my costs. So yes, it's worth it for me personally.It would go inline with the 50-pin LCD flex cable and use those signals to recreate a VGA signal, which could then generate an HDMI signal from a cheap converter. If you've ever replaced an LCD in a cell phone, it will be easy, non-invasive, and 100% reversible.Actual components involved are all inexpensive off the shelf and it could sell for around US$50.Right now it's a slow moving project, still working on a prototype using a TCON board made for this LCD, but will get back to DC1MC when I have something. And yes, I would ship to Germany.Thanks!

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 06:42:17 am
content: Quote from: sgilson99 on November 27, 2022, 09:38:29 pmHi, I would not bother to VGA, but go directly to HDMI using the chip in my previous post.In the meantime here are some suitable 0.5mm pitch 50pin FFC:https://www.ebay.de/itm/272338188675As luck has it they are used on the PS2 consoles, so most likely are available around you as well.And some other interesting stuff for your prototyping work, have a look:https://www.ebay.de/itm/383979660294https://www.ebay.de/itm/163115551155Eagerly waiting for the first results.Cheers,DC1MC

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 06:14:48 pm
content: Hello, in an attempt to support the OP, I have opened at request my 1074Z from 2013 and I've reached the the LCD, where I've snapped some hi-res pics.NOTES:- The LCD is a 50pin FFC cable type, sadly I wasn't able to find any on-line reference to the model number that was labeled on the FPC.- The pin 8 is not connected to ground, but to a signal (measured in diode mode).- The opening in the EMI shield is 41x22mm.And pictures:

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 06:16:15 pm
content: More pic:

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 06:17:24 pm
content: More pic:

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 06:18:58 pm
content: More pic:

author: sgilson99
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 07:34:10 pm
content: Thanks so much for the pictures DC1MC!The LCD cable looks virtually identical to Dave's tear-down of a DS1054Z (his photo attached). Numbers on the cable tag are nearly identical.I strongly suspect this is a TIANMA TM070RDH11 LCD screen 800x480, as posted by another person. The cable matches photos of that part number.A misleading post said the DS1054Z scope uses an Innolux AT070TN83 V.1 TFT LCD Screen Display 800x480, but that one has a 40-pin connector.40-pin: 18-bit color50-pin: 24-bit colorI don't think Rigol did any upgrade from 18-bit to 24-bit color, based on yours being a 2013 model. It's probably always been 24-bit color.The actual part number of the LCD is on the back of the LCD, further disassembly (four screws) would be required.I started this project based on the incorrect 40-pin LCD posting, so I'm restarting the project in January after I get the new LCD and TCON board. I should have something for you to try in the spring.And thanks for the pin 8 info. It determines Data Enable or HSYNC/VSYNC mode. I was interested in what logic level was there (0V or 3.3V), but it turns out the HSYNC and VSYNC signals are always generated even if it's in Data Enable mode. I need those signals to recreate the VGA HSYNC/VSYNC signals.Regarding the RGB-to-HDMI chip you recommended, the TFP410, availability of those was out 18+ months. In general, any HDMI output chip I looked at had super long lead times, so that discouraged me right off. But it seems now they'll have TFP410 stock early next year. They are not cheap, US$14 in quantity, which would more than double my BOM cost. I'll keep it simple with VGA only for the first version, and if there's interest I'll do another for HDMI. I figure people can use a cheap VGA-to-HDMI adapter if their monitor doesn't support VGA. And...the picture quality would be virtually identical.One last comment: as an aging adult, I find some of the text on the screen difficult to read at times, so something like this is a bonus for quite a few of us.

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 07:56:15 pm
content: Just a couple of extra details:- I did fully remove the LCD from the chassis, these 4 screws were not a problem, sadly on the back there is nothing, no label at all. The LCD is cased in some other EMI shield tough, but it is glued around with some gray potting compound and it was too risky to force it.- Looking at the flex cable, it seems that there is and I2C EEPROM, even if it's called OTP !!!.- To get a compatible LCD one needs to look at the ground pins and on the flex layout, these is why I've included hi-res pics, if at least the GND and power pins are compatible will not burn when tested.- I've seen on another forum where someone just did a "poor man DAC" with R-2R resistive networks, some transistors and got a VGA signal, sadly it seems that not all monitors could synchronize on it.- If I'll found a brakeboard with a long flex cable I may give it a try to thisR-2R thingie, meanwhile I'm waiting to see what will show up next year.Cheers,DC1MC

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 08:17:02 pm
content: Ho, ho, ho, looky what I've foundhttps://www.ebay.de/itm/364027043500https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/5xUAAOSwqsljV4CD/s-l1600.jpgI can eventually play with the output signals.Cheers,DC1MC

author: sgilson99
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 08:40:16 pm
content: That's exactly the type of break out board I'm using for my prototype.Having a look at the output signals will be very helpful. HSYNC, VSYNC, DE, and MODE are most useful.Can a scope take pictures of it's own signals? I suspect so, if it's all the same ground.Yes, I noticed that chip on the flex cable. My 40-pin LCD doesn't have that. Probably some color calibration data specific to that panel.Too bad there was no part number on it. But I've looked at several 50-pin LCDs, and they all seem to match the pinout of the TM070RDH1 (attached). The power pins on your photo appear to match up with this. There were only minor differences in a few cases, but no conflicts like power and ground in the wrong place. The main differences were in the LED power on the first four pins; perhaps it is provided on a separate cable that I've seen sometimes. And one LCD didn't have the DITHB dither function.Yes, the general idea is to create an active DAC and properly timed sync signals, and play that against several monitors to make sure it's solid.The other unknown is whether a monitor will display an 800x480 signal; it's non-standard in the monitor world. The nearest standard is 800x600 (SVGA). Will it just display at the top of the screen, then when it gets an early VSYNC, restart at the top? Or will it choke and say "Unsupported format".? In which case I'd need to generate an extra 120 lines (60 top/60 bottom).

author: sgilson99
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 21, 2023, 02:58:31 pm
content: So, after much investigation and procrastination, I've decided to shelve this project indefinitely. It turns out the LCD controller chip on all modern LCD monitors are very picky about not only H/V SYNC signal timing, but also the exact number of lines provided to it. Since the scope is 120 lines short of what any display will acknowledge as a valid signal, there would need to be extra circuitry to provide 60 black lines on top and 60 more on the bottom. The scope provides H/V timing signals, but those would need to be provided with very good accuracy for those extra lines, meaning a crystal controlled PLL, a frame buffer, and more circuitry. Yes, there are chips for >$10 that do some or all of those functions, and provide an HDMI output, but my goal was to do it quite inexpensively using 74LVC244 and resistors driving a simple VGA output. So, it quickly became more than I was willing to invest in time and money. If someone is interested in working on this, I can share a lot of info I've collected so far and designs, with areas that need attention. Thanks so much DC1MC for your help.Scott

author: spostma
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2023, 04:43:37 pm
content: Before you give up on this interesting project, you might consider using a video upscalerwith a 1080p HDMI output like the ones used to revive old game consoles.For examle, the Sony Playstation 2 had a 480p video mode that might be similar to the Rigol video format.Some affordable PS2-to-HDMI video scalers that would be good candidates:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005033496587.htmlhttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004138197427.htmlSome more info on the PS2 video:https://www.retrorgb.com/playstation2.htmlhttps://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4337.0https://hackaday.com/2021/02/17/ps2-gets-integrated-hdmi/https://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:playstation_2_rgb_syncUpscalers for the GameCube also might work.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2023, 05:05:39 pm
content: Quote from: sgilson99 on June 21, 2023, 02:58:31 pmI'm not surprised to hear this.Just the effort needed to build an interface for such things is usually prohibitive.Also, the Siglent equivalent has full remote operation and screen viewing via a web browser plugged into the Ethernet port.I guess the Rigol is similar, although from memory I think it needs a special program instead of a web browser.