Recommended AmScope upgrade configuration for circuit board repair? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Kahenraz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 01:50:20 am
content: I was very fortunate to have found a wonderful used AmScope from a local classified ad several years ago for a great price. I've since become much better at soldering and the experience I've gained as a result of owning an AmScope is incredible. But I'm starting to outgrow it; it was heavily used by the time I had bought it and as a result it drifts out of focus with use, the lenses are not very clear, and I don't have a very wide range of focus. I've worked around these issues but I'm about ready to buy myself a new one now that I appreciate it and know which features are important to me.I don't know what the magnification is of the optics with the scope I use currently but I would like to zoom in closer for fine detail work like 0402 SMDs. I also have an issue zooming out where if the board I'm working on is too high off the desk I zoom out far enough to get it into focus. As a result I have to raise the base of the scope up with some books to compensate. This is awkward and I'm always afraid that the scope might tilt from the higher center of gravity and fall into my work.From my research I think what I want is a 3.5X-90X minimum. I don't know how much of a difference going to 180X will be or if that's overkill. My current scope is a single-arm boom and I've read that with a dual-arm boom will give me a greater range for adjustment which would help with the issue I have when zooming out to focus.I'm happy with my ring LED light. I don't feel like I would need anything else but I've nothing to compare it with.Since I'm already making such a large investment, I would really like to get a unit with a camera for taking photos and try streaming some of my repairs. Currently I hold my phone's camera up to the eyepiece for still shots but the quality from this is never as good as what I see. One thing I'm also concerned about is the choice of camera. If I want to stream them I would favor a higher frame rate over resolution. There is little value to stream at 1080p if it only captures at 5 fps. When looking at the different cameras available the only information available is the number of megapixels and not the rate of frame capture.I also can't figure out what the difference is between a Simul-Focal and Trinocular head piece. I know both will work with a camera and I've read that some head pieces will block one of the eyepieces with the camera inserted. Is that an issue with either of these two options? Because I don't want that. What's the difference?There are a lot of options for customization and I would like to try to make the right purchasing decision the first time. These things are big and heavy and I don't want to go through the trouble of shipping it back or wasting money by purchasing equivalent optics by mistake.Also of note, I have very high prescription glasses and focusing through the eyepieces is difficult. I don't know if this is because I have to sit a bit further away or if this is just something that everyone deals with. Are there any optional accessories for people who wear glasses?Here are some photos of my current microscope for reference. It has served me well.

author: Kahenraz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 01:59:54 am
content: Here are examples of some of my best repairs which would have otherwise been impossible for me without a microscrope. I LOVE my AmScope!https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=83432https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=85121https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=84885

author: daisizhou
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 02:50:52 am
content: This is my AmScope.I DIY a lighting lamp, because I think a circle of that kind of light will block the lens, so I made this smaller and more convenient.If you want to take pictures, you need to make a hole in it and install a CCD capture device, which is very difficult

author: Kahenraz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 02:56:19 am
content: That's some nice DIY. Is that an enormous heatsink on the back of the lamp?

author: daisizhou
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 08:36:22 am
content: Yes, there is an aluminum radiator at the back, it comes from a replacement spotlight on the ceiling

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 11:33:13 am
content: I've covered many aspects of microscopes and cameras etc on my YouTube channel, feel free to have a search and hopefully get answers to your questions.At 180x you need a lot of light, it's also impractical though as you only end up with about 10mm clearance between the lens and your PCB.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 04:41:14 pm
content: Quote from: Kahenraz on December 17, 2021, 01:50:20 amAs in they have been fouled from, say, soldering fumes?QuoteAs in you have a shallow depth of field at high magnifications, or is the issue more exotic?QuoteView a millimeter scale at maximum power and divide 200 by the number of mm you can see across, through the 10X/20mm eyepieces. That will give the magnification you already have and suggest how much more you might need.90X is quite a lot. You will either need a lot of light, asSteveyGwrites above, or you might be happier with the other sort of stereo microscope, one with a much larger Common Main Objective (CMO).QuoteI think that is Amscope-speak for  a microscope that provides images to both eyepieces and the camera, simultaneously, that all stay in focus as you zoom in and out and  a microscope that shutters one eyepiece when you use the camera, and may allow the camera to go out of focus with respect to the other eyepiece as you zoom in and out.QuoteYou may just need better, high eyepoint eyepieces. I found some surprisingly usable, 20X/11mm eyepieces designed for surgeons wearing eye protection that can not sit that close to the microscope.

author: Kahenraz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 02:10:07 am
content: Quote from: jfiresto on December 17, 2021, 04:41:14 pmIf the board is too high on my desk I cannot raise the head enough to gain focus. For example, if the circuit board has large components on it and I have to do a repair on the opposite side; the components raise the board too high. In this case I have to place books underneath the base to compensate.Quote from: jfiresto on December 17, 2021, 04:41:14 pmI can see about 4.5mm diameter zoomed in and about 700mm zoomed out. So I think that means mine is 3.5X-45X.That helps me a lot with deciding which optics to choose.What is the experience like when choosing how far out I can zoom? For example, 7X vs 2X. Does one of these numbers affect how close an object can be to the head while remaining in focus?I'm reading this guide:https://amscope.com/pages/how-to-choose-microscopeI appear to have a 0.5X Barlow lens. Does this mean that my headpiece is actually 7X-45X? The Barlow lens would let me focus closer at 0.5X but reduce my working distance by half. Maybe this is why I can't zoom out as far as expected?

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 08:19:37 am
content: This must be brief because I am typing with one hand. The most popular stereo Amscopes have a 7–45x zoom ratio. The 0.5x lens halves that to give 3.5-22.5x and also increases the working distance. There is a trade-off between max. useful magnification and working distance. Typically these scopes can manage no more than 60~65x (using 15x eyepieces) and roughly 100mm from the specimen – with no barlow lens. Zooming to much greater magnifications just gives 'empty magnification' (think Claude Monet) which limits the useful zoom range.Microscopes with more complex optics can do better but they are more expensive. Look at, for example, the Leica S9.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 09:23:11 pm
content: Kahenraz congrats on your microscope soldering progress. There is no doubt that with a decent microscope soldering skills can be improved considerably. It's much easier when you can see what's happening with solder joints in detail while you are soldering. This requires a suitable magnification, sufficient working distance, and a reasonable field of view.As jfiresto and others are saying you can/should reduce the magnification to something in the range of 7-45x or 3.5-22.5x. You want to get enough magnification to see what you are doing but there are relationships among magnification, working distance, field of view, and also microscope viewing height (which will influence how and where you stand or sit as you use the scope) - all of which you want to get right for your use.About a year ago I went through the microscope selection process and found that while there are lots of articles that present some of the relationships and some of the data it was hard to find all the info in one place.I think if you read this post you will get a summary to most of your questions and you will find more answers if you read through the entire thread.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/the-ergonomics-of-microscope-soldering-direct-optical-view-vs-cameramo-257888/msg3332530/#msg3332530- at the end is a table that shows working distances and field of view for various barlow lenses using an Amscope microscope similar to what I think you are considering.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 03:01:31 pm
content: I have a hunch that lack of magnification might not be the OP's issue.Here is a photo I took of some 0402 capacitors with an old M7S CMO microscope in stereo mode:Its shows the approximate view through roughly 10X/21 eyepieces (the vignetting at the corners) at 22–23X power. I used an LED ring light which tends to wash things out. I bet a couple LED or halogen spots would produce an image that is more flattering to the microscope. I have not yet soldered anything smaller than 0603s, but even with the ring light I bet the imaging is good enough for 0402s.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 03:39:35 pm
content: Not sure if the OP has not enough magnification, or more likely too much magnification if zooming out is an issue, but good lighting (if possible from two or three sources or directions) might help. 0402 is likely feasible with the proper Amscope lens combination and lighting depending on the user’s vision and dexterity. The whole thing is a system with system tradeoffs and opportunities for optimization.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 04:06:16 pm
content: I wonder about the ring lighting. An 0.5X auxiliary lens distances the light which reduces the incident angle and adds contrast-robbing reflections.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 05:05:35 pm
content: Trinocular means there's a camera port as well as two eyepieces.Simul-focal means the light is split three ways -- the two eyepieces and the camera port. Without simul-focal, it means there's a lever to change one eyepiece to the camera.When amscope advertises larger ranges, it doesn't change the head in the slightest. It just changes how many different lenses they include in the bundle, which you then have to manually change. For instance 3.5x-180x likely means they'll include a 0.5 barlow, a 2.0 barlow, 10x eyepieces and 20x eyepieces. Your current range will be the head (0.7-4.5) * eyepiece (10 or 20) * barlow (0.5, 1.0=no barlow, 2.0).Try removing the 0.5 barlow lens on your current microscope. That should change your zoom range from 3.5-22.5x to 7-45x and halve your working distance. Trust me, more than 45x zoom is almost never needed for electronics work, but it might be nice for other fields. You can also get an in-between barlow of 0.7 if you want to split the difference.On your current microscope, you have the focusing rack upside down. Which still works, but you'll get several inches more height out of the setup if you turn it over (which means fewer books required).Your overall height requirements are more of a stand issue. You might want to consider an articulating stand to make vertical easier to adjust.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 06:46:17 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on December 19, 2021, 05:05:35 pm+1This is good advice

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 07:23:47 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on December 19, 2021, 05:05:35 pmThat describes simul-view or not. A lot of Amscope customers seem to also associate simul-focal with the camera staying in focus with the eyepieces, that is, everything is parfocal. When someone says their Amscope is trinocular they usual mean it is neither simul-view nor simul-focal nor entirely parfocal.I am just trying not to confuse anyone including myself.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 08:12:07 pm
content: Quote from: jfiresto on December 19, 2021, 07:23:47 pmYou don't have to take my word for it, you can just go look at amscope. For instance:https://amscope.com/products/sm-4tpz-frl-3mQuoteNote that other brands may not use that word.As for your suggested interpretations of words, if true, then a lot of Amscope customers are confused. Obviously a non-simul-focal microscope that redirects an eyepiece to the trinocular port will also stay synced with the other eyepiece. Assuming the eyepieces were ever in sync.SimulView is not a term associated with microscopes to my knowledge. It's Sony's trademark technology for two players viewing two different full-screen displays on the same 3d monitor. So yes, even using the term here is confusing.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 09:27:07 pm
content: On an Amscope if you have a trinocular I'm pretty sure you have to manually close off one eye piece to use the camera tube. With simulfocal you can use both eye pieces and the camera tube at the same time - so it's easy to look in the binocular (stereo) view and then look up at the monitor to see the digital view, or vice versa.If you set up the camera properly you can focus with the optics and keep the camera reasonably focused but it will take some trial and error with the camera and accessories to get exactly or almost the same view through the optics and on the monitor. This is mostly just a one-time thing when you first get the scope, camera, monitor, and all the parts. It’s a fun exercise, but it’s an exercise to get the camera/monitor and the optical views highly synchronized.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/the-ergonomics-of-microscope-soldering-direct-optical-view-vs-cameramo-257888/msg3314448/#msg3314448In my case I thought the digital view with the camera/monitor might be useful but for me it turned out be more neat than truly useful. If I was sharing the image viewing on the bench with another user standing at the bench or with another user on a computer or over a network then the camera/monitor/digital view might be more useful, but just for solo soldering it's not a big deal one way or the other – with or without the monitor – it’s a budget and use case decision. Definitely you want stereo to have a sense of depth so just viewing with one eye tube on a trinocular doesn't seem very attractive. The simulfocal version doesn't add much cost for the 3rd tube view but you need a monitor and a camera (or at least a camera with a memory card slot), so I'd say simulfocal is good for users who need/want digital imaging; simulfocal will be a better solution than the trinocular approach, IMO.However, to be completely square, what I don't know is whether a binocular (stereo) Amscope would yield noticeably more light for the two eye pieces (by avoiding having to give some of the light to the camera tube in a simulfocal). What I can say, IMO, is that even with the simulfocal you get good (enough) light with both eyepeices. I just don't know if the light would be noticeably better if you gave up the camera tube and stuck with just the regular binocular view. Either way, I’m inclined to say it’s either binocular or simulfocal (but likely not trinocular). Maybe someone can tell us if a binocular Amscope really yields more light than the optical view in a simulfocal.For sure, compared to no microscope the simulfocal gives excellent viewing for soldering through the binocular optics, and for the occasional look-see on the monitor it's nice to have the 3rd tube for the camera. With the simulfocal you don't have to do anything except power up the camera and the monitor - and then you have both the stereo optical view and the digital view when you want it.As for “parafocal”, what I would say is that with an Amscope simulfocal (and I’m sure with also with the binocular) you learn to zoom in and focus, and then zoom out and retain focus while you zooming out. If you try to focus while you are zoomed out it might not (probably won’t) retain focus so well when you zoom in. Center the object, start with sharp zoomed in or nearly zoomed in and then enjoy zooming out to look around at a wider view. It’s a great tool.The Amscope stereo optical view with either the binocular or the simufocal head provides a really a really nice path to improved soldering. If you want a digital view get the simulfocal. If you want to go easier on the budget, just get the binocular version. The Amscope has been one of the most enjoyable pieces of “test equipment” I’ve invested in and I don’t solder a lot – but when I do or I have something I want to inspect it’s just a very cool experience to see small stuff clearly.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 09:44:24 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on December 19, 2021, 05:05:35 pmI think for the OP, while we (me) have drifted around a bit on the subject of microscopes, this suggestion by Nusa to turn the rack from upside down to right side up is probably the first best next step to address the OP's problem.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2021, 08:56:57 am
content: I have used two otherwise identical photo tubes, one with a 50:50 beam splitter, sending half the light to the camera and half to the left eyepiece, and the other with a 100:0 prism, sending all the light to either one or the other. The big difference I have noticed so far is that the 50:50 photo tube is about an f-stop dimmer. A 100:0 photo tube might make life easier for some things, perhaps polarization work. A 50:50 photo tube can be quite helpful in that you lets you see what the camera sees. If all three tubes are parfocal, it can let you can use the left eyepiece as a focusing viewfinder. While you can sort of do that using the right eyepiece with a 100:0 photo tube, the left and right side views somewhat differ which often means having to reframe and/or refocus.As Electro Fan has done, it is worth the trouble to get both eyepieces and the camera parafocal, so that they all focus together. The time you spending doing that at the start will save you a lot more time later – and it will make using the microscope and camera much more pleasant.My earlier remarks about "simul-focal" are just my attempt at forming a mental model of how people use the term: so as not to have everyone talk in circles when I try to help out. I am not entirely sure I am the right guy for that (helping out, that is). Not only have I never used an Amscope, the stereo microscopes I have used, have largely had a quite different type of optical system with its own advantages and disadvantages.It is a bit like having owned and worked a little on front loading washing machines, trying to advise someone who has an American-style tub loader. Both wash clothes, and to some degree you can extrapolate from one to the other about how they do it, but what each type considers and optimizes can be quite different.You guys seem to have gotten things pretty well sorted out. I probably should just lurk more and write less.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2021, 04:36:47 pm
content: If going from a binocular head to a simulfocal head loses roughly the equivalent of one f stop I think it's probably ok to go with either head: binocular or simulfocal. One f stop on a 35mm camera lens, for example, is discernible but generally not dramatic. So if you don't need/want the camera view on a microscope it's good to gain a f stop of light and save some budget with a binocular head, but on the other hand if you want/need the camera view I think you can make up for the f stop loss on the simulfocal to a pretty good extent by just adding more light. To avoid hot spot glare you can add multiple lights (ring and gooseneck) which will give more even lighting and also help reveal perspective and depth of component structures on a PCB. The ability to resolve depth (both for through hole and SMD) is a useful benefit of stereo optics (and one of the reasons to consider an optical scope vs a purely mono digital scope). Generally when you gain a f stop of light you also lose some depth of focus, so if you go the other direction (lose a f stop with simulfocal) you can maybe gain some depth of focus and then make up for the lost f stop with better lighting. Given these tradeoffs I'm sticking with the recommendation that it's either simulfocal (rather than trinocular) if you want the camera view, or binocular if you want to save on the budget. Either way, both binocular and simulfocal should be augmented with some good lighting.BTW, I think jfiresto is being humble when he uses the front loader vs top loader washing machine metaphor. To use a different (automobile) metaphor I think the Amscopes are like Honda Civics or Honda Accords (depending on which Amscope model you choose). For entry level and enthusiast vs pro soldering I think the Civic and the Accord will get the job done somewhere between reasonably well and in fine fashion depending on your frame of reference and expectations. I think jfiresto has lots of good experience and knowledge regarding the Lexus, BMW, Mercedes and other high end scopes (Olympus, Nikon, Leica, Zeiss, et al). I'm sure the higher end microscopes will provide better/sharper detail and edge to edge uniformity and other beneficial attributes and features so it's good to know how it's done and what's possible as you move up the ladder and I always learn useful info from jfiresto's posts. Thx John.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2021, 01:39:37 am
content: Simul-focal is a subset of trinocular. They aren't mutually exclusive terms, even if you want to use them that way. It's only a problem for you if you forget that advertisers can use the literal meaning of words, not what you'd like them to mean.This looks to be the microscope and stand the OP currently owns:https://amscope.com/collections/stereo-microscope/products/sm-3bPlus 0.5 barlow lens and ring light.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2021, 05:19:21 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on December 21, 2021, 01:39:37 amRoger that but I think when Amscope says Trinocular without also saying Simulfocal they mean you will get the ability to use two of the three tubes at one time. When Amscope says Simulfocal, while it is a subset of Trinocular, it means you can use both binocular tubes and the camera tube at the same time. So I don't think in this case it's what I'd like the words to mean, it's a pretty reasonable interpretation of what Amscope means. Jus' sayin'.https://amscope.com/products/sm-3t?variant=40285330702511• A trinocular photo-port provides a dedicated mount for adding a camera.Trinocular PortThe switched trinocular photo-port provides a dedicated mount for a camera. When the photo-port is switched open, all light from the left objective is diverted to the port to provide maximum brightness for the camera to guarantee the best quality images.https://amscope.com/products/sm-3ntpy• The simul-focal trinocular photo-port provides a dedicated mount for a camera, and can be used simultaneously with both eyepieces.Simul-focal Trinocular PortThe simul-focal optics in this microscope allow the trinocular port to be used simultaneously with both eyepieces. This means a camera can stream live images from the microscope while you continue to work with full stereoscopic vision. This is accomplished by sharing the left objective lens with the left ocular and the photo-port.The SM-3B should be a decent scope. I think if the OP flips the rack around like you suggested he might be able to get more range of focus and/or some more work space and versatility with the scope.

author: Scott1969
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 06:31:18 pm
content: I am going to add my, "Two Cents" here about the whole, "Parfocal" debacle.Why?Because AMScopes drove me nut's for about a week as I attempted to get a clarification from them over the phone.But before I explain that. Here are a few notes which should help everyone understand the (what and why) also.It looks like "at first" that AM Scopes has thousands of different scopes to purchase when just looking at the "Stereo" type of scope.That is what they want us to think apparently. But really?All they are doing is confusing everyone. Even the salespeople are confused.For example, the "SM" series of scopes. Mechanically? They have a grand total of, (2) different scope heads for sale.That's it, (2)! Well ok (3) if you count the third tube "Trinocular" models. But optically? Just the two!1. Binocular2. TrinocularOther than that? They are showing you a mix of stands, lighting and how many adapter rings for cameras and lighting, Barlow lensing and camera choices you may choose to buy. And thats it!And I found that this is actually the same with the "Z" model, (Parfocal) scopes too. Which are otherwise called (Ultimate) scopes as well.After I had figured this out for myself? One of the sales people actually confirmed this by stating this fact to me over the phoneduring a call last week.Why all the disinformation? It is the standard "2020 Marketing Strategies"!All of the "SM" scopes are "Parfocal" because that is simply a process for eye calibration by the user.The difference between the two types of scopes, "Z" and "SM" is the internal optical stack.The "Z" scopes- If you purchase a 2X-225X Parfocal scope you get a box with a scope head and two eye pieces.The "SM" scopes- If you purchase a 2X-225X Simulfocus scope you get a box with a scope head, (7X-45X), (4) eye pieces. And an assortment of Barlow lenses.The "Z" scope has everything contained inside the head to zoom through the 2X-225X range. But sales did tell me you, "Could" add Barlow lensing as needed/wanted. But I believe both light and detail would suffer and cause problems with that.The "SM" scope can go the that same range. BUT You will need to add, change, and/or subtract the different lenses as you go.And also, the different powered eye pieces to achieve that range. Plus re-focusing each step as well.But who needs that type of zoom at all times? If you do not? The SM is a better choice. And MUCH cheaper!Also, None of the "Parfocal Z" scopes will, "Simulfocus".Which means what exactly??That there is a pin/lever on the left side of the head which manually shutters one eye piece which allows the third tube to become active while you take pics/video. The older "SM"< models were like this to apparently. And some of the older scopes are still for sale so watch that too. "Returns mostly".The "Z" scopes "Should" be a little finer optically though simply because the distances are "SET" between the interior lensing.Also, eliminating dirt/dust on the interior lensing as well.But the lens quality and also the build quality should be the same for both models of scopes.I hope this helps!

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 08:18:26 pm
content: Quote from: Scott1969 on February 03, 2022, 06:31:18 pmTotal rubbish, but I'm sure sales wanted to sell you one since it's more expensive than the SM. The Z series has a 0.67-4.5X objective. Magnification for current setup is eyepiece x barlow x objective range. If they're selling you 2x-225x, then multiple eyepieces and barlows are in the package...and price. Check the packing list on the listing.For the Z series to get 2X it has to have the 0.3 barlow and 10x eyepiece and minimum zoom. To get 225X it has to have the 2x barlow and 25x eyepiece and maximum zoom. Without a barlow and 10x eyepiece, you've only got a 6.7x-45x zoom microscope. Which is a good range for electronics work, but beside the point.