Elizabeth Holmes to seek mental disease/insanity - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2020, 09:03:40 pm
content: First according to prosecuters she wanted "too much" from the prosecution:https://www.law360.com/articles/1298029/ex-theranos-ceo-wants-too-much-info-prosecutors-sayQuoteand now seeking to plead some form of mental insanity?https://www.complianceweek.com/anti-corruption/elizabeth-holmes-might-seek-mental-disease-defense-at-theranos-trial/29457.articleQuoteI thought that was for a doctor/psychiatrist to diagnose.QuoteThat is starting to sound to me like a joke as almost as if she is in charge by getting them to do many things and now trying to wriggle out of court.What do you think?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2020, 09:06:06 pm
content: Since when was it up to the crook to decide how they are prosecuted?

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2020, 09:18:57 pm
content: QuoteWell, attempting to deny your opposition a means to verify the veracity of your claims seems to be a recurring theme in the Theranos debacle. It's probably the only way she knows how to play.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2020, 09:23:59 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 15, 2020, 09:06:06 pmWhen they have enough money to buy the prosecution, of course.Tim

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2020, 09:54:32 pm
content: This is the whole problem with insanity defence ... expert testimony is for sale and now the prosecutors have to spend public money to buy their own testimony.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2020, 10:55:57 pm
content: Exuberance may become irrational, but greed is logical.

author: MadTux
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2020, 11:18:43 pm
content: Maybe she doesn't know "One flew over the cuckoo's nest" and how it ended

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2020, 10:13:13 pm
content: Isn't there a blood test for it?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2020, 10:21:59 pm
content: Quote from: babysitter on September 16, 2020, 10:13:13 pmPossibly, but even Holmes wouldn't trust the results.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 12:59:09 am
content: Quote from: coppice on September 15, 2020, 09:06:06 pmIt's always been for every crook about thirty seconds before they do the actual crime.

author: raptor1956
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 10:02:44 pm
content: She's been described as a sociopath or a psychopath for quite some time and given the lack of affect she projects it's easy to see how those descriptions have been made. I'm not sure what exact mental issue she's claiming or will claim but being a sociopath has been great for CEO and political types -- if you care not one wit about your employees or constituents then enacting policies that favor a select few at the expense of everyone else can net you a tidy income. Indeed, one might say we are living in an era in which sociopaths rule -- quite literally.Brian

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2020, 04:29:45 am
content: Quote from: raptor1956 on September 17, 2020, 10:02:44 pmWhat you did there. I see it.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2020, 06:05:08 am
content: Quote from: MadTux on September 15, 2020, 11:18:43 pmLOL, no. Times have changed. These days being insane and proud of it is powerful and brave in America, but you must be proud.She will spearhead the movement for recognizing that women can't be blamed for anything because they are insane, but it's nothing wrong with them being insane, we just need to accept neurodiversity.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 02:21:13 pm
content: Well, another twist in the saga.Quotehttps://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/skbaer/elizabeth-holmes-theranos-defense-plans

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 09:16:00 pm
content: I was always going to be some man's fault.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 10:24:35 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on August 29, 2021, 02:21:13 pmso she's going to cry and say an evil man made her do it, and she is really a victim...

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 11:41:34 pm
content: Cry me a river, I'm sure he had it coming

author: m3vuv
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2021, 12:55:01 pm
content: Still wouldnt kick her out of bed for farting tho!!

author: pardo-bsso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2021, 01:06:31 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 15, 2020, 09:06:06 pmForever?(now our dear president here is doing exactly that)

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2021, 09:45:28 pm
content: https://www.theonion.com/elizabeth-holmes-arrives-to-trial-with-prototype-for-bl-1847584107

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2021, 11:55:24 pm
content: Gotta love Onion humor. Surprised they didn't make the joke that one simple little blood test would prove her innocent.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 01:44:01 am
content: Quote from: m3vuv on August 31, 2021, 12:55:01 pmLadies with deep, gravelly voices aren't my thing. Not since...Well, lets just say what happened in Soho stays in Soho.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 01:49:26 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on September 01, 2021, 01:44:01 amlots of rumors that the deep voice was just an act

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 06:18:48 am
content: Everything crazy chicks do is an act, and the act is what they are for real

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2021, 05:05:06 pm
content: Quote from: oPossum on August 31, 2021, 09:45:28 pmEhm..exuse me? Can someone educate me on the 150% piece of it.Quote

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2021, 06:31:37 am
content: Quote from: Bud on September 03, 2021, 05:05:06 pmDid you just eat The Onion?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 03:08:01 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on September 01, 2021, 01:44:01 amI've never heard of her until reading this thread, yet I live under a rock, so had to Google her. I don't care how pretty she is, I wouldn't go to bed with a con artist, because I don't trust her not to scam me in some way.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 04:45:43 pm
content: QuoteIt looks to me like the judge has become corrupted and should bereplacedswapped over.I thought judges are not suppose to take sides and invest in ventures under investigation/trial in court.Just found this, Alexander Martin at Sky news is referring to her as a "hero".https://news.sky.com/story/elizabeth-holmes-trial-begins-the-downfall-of-the-silicon-valley-medical-hero-who-founded-theranos-12396482QuoteI don't understand how they are classing her as a "hero" especially with the flawed blood testing results.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 05:40:47 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on September 05, 2021, 04:45:43 pmhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 05:44:55 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on September 05, 2021, 05:40:47 pmQuoteOops.My mistake sorry about that.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 06:14:55 am
content: I found out today there is a podcast created to follow this case. The podcast is called "The Dropout". I searched on "podcast Holmes dropout".I saw the news here.https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/elizabeth-holmes-trial-over-alleged-fraudulent-blood-testing-technology-beginsI haven't listened to the podcast yet. So not recommending it. Just lettin' you know.Might be a good time to get the book out for a read.https://www.amazon.com/Bad-Blood-Secrets-Silicon-Startup/dp/152473165XPS There is also the other "Holmes" podcast which I can recommend.http://sherlockpodcast.com/

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 06:36:43 am
content: Quote from: coppice on September 15, 2020, 09:06:06 pmI hear that, down under, the crook are prosecuted with medicine and a fortnight of bed rest.Just came to say that I immensely appreciate you having used the word "crook" - I appreciate our great English language, there's too many dumbed-down versions of it these days. Love these words.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 07:10:59 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on September 05, 2021, 05:44:55 pmI can't blame you for being confused here - the world is catching up to The Onion. I'm guessing The Onion is actually having problems coming up with things more absurd than what happens in the real world.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 08:32:13 am
content: Quote from: daqq on September 09, 2021, 07:10:59 amhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 12:57:12 pm
content: No, it really is what one Eric Raymond (in different circumstances) dubbed Poe's Law Singularity - reality is becoming so absurd that the differences from satire simply disappear.No one is even surprised by some American coming up with a device rendering verdicts more accurate that the court, it's only the 150% thing which reaches beyond the usual claims coming from Silicon Valley inventors.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 08:03:05 pm
content: It seems the situation does not look good for Betsy:

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 09:04:01 pm
content: I'm just guessing, AFIK her product didn't work properly, BUT could be improved.Following the same logic, Bill Gates and other Microsoft staff should be in Jail since Windows 95, that crap never worked well. (the same for other silicon valley companies, even in electronics field)

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 12:57:50 am
content: Quote from: Trader on September 09, 2021, 09:04:01 pmCustomers are allowed to be deceived. Investors are not. Apparently.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 02:41:54 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on September 10, 2021, 12:57:50 amMedical is radically different than computing - not only much more regulated, but much older industry with immensely powerful people. This certainly played a large role in fueling investors to pressure the feds to run this to the ground. Among the issues are fraud against the FDA officials and potentially causing problems to real patients due to bad test results.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 03:49:09 am
content: In medical it surely helps to work like those whatever-their-name water testing guys: operate your startup in one country, sell your dodgy products elsewhere

author: passedpawn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 04:50:50 am
content: Read that book Bad Blood. I zipped through it a few years ago when it came out, quite a page-turner. Holmes is quite guilty of fraud, and Sunny (her boyfriend) is equally culpable.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 08:00:03 am
content: Quote from: Trader on September 09, 2021, 09:04:01 pmReally ?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 08:24:37 am
content: This is legal, because unlike medical products, software is notsupposedto workRead the long list of warranty disclaimers in any EULA you click through.editFrom Windows 8 EULA I found somewhere on the net:QuoteThat's not exactly how things work in critical industries. If somebody dies because your product reboots due to a Windows crash, you will be on the hook for the death and Microsoft may or may not refund you the price you paid for Windows.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 11:05:59 am
content: Quote from: magic on September 20, 2021, 08:24:37 amHey, this is more than the compensation in case a vaccine causes you harm. In some cases, even the pharmaceutical industry and the government will accept a leeway in their "golden standards" if the compensation is high enough and the right strings are pulled - these guys just didn't have enough clout to get their game together.

author: AlbertL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 11:47:03 am
content: Quote from: eti on September 09, 2021, 06:36:43 amBetter be careful on NextDoor - believe it or not, you can't use harsh words in reference to criminals! Their guidelines prohibit "... the use of derogatory language to refer to people who have a criminal history (e.g., "scum" or "animals")."

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 12:10:59 pm
content: Quote from: passedpawn on September 20, 2021, 04:50:50 amI'm reading it now. It is a page-turner. There has to be a movie made about this. You couldn't make it up.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 06:38:21 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on September 01, 2021, 01:44:01 amEl-Oh-El-Ay Lola-Pat

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2021, 07:46:02 am
content: I came across another podcast by the WSJ reporter John Carreyrou who wrote the book. He narrates the podcast and it is the better of the two I am following. It is called Bad Blood: The Final Chapter and takes the story beyond where the book left off.In the episode Guilty Conscience it is revealed that EH wrote in an email to herself "really smart people picked off mado, not you". It is a bit cryptic and not revealed what is meant by mado. But does it refer to Bernie Madoff? Is it an admission she knew?I do recommend it to those interested in the story of Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos.https://www.threeuncannyfour.com/show/bad-blood/

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 12:36:41 am
content: Quotehttps://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-jury-theranos-trial-cannot-agree-verdicts-all-charges-2022-01-03/

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 01:00:32 am
content: That is interesting. I'd be curious to see the details. "Conspiring to defraud investors" usually requires making use of one's particular influence, network, credibility, etc, to persuade others to invest (in other words, having some position of power and authority), and as I already mentioned (I know many did not agree), I'm wondering how and where her influence could come from, because to me, she had neither power (at the beginning at least) nor authority, so I'm still very curious how this was determined that she was able to defraud seasoned investors on her own.Not saying she didn't deserve it, eh. Just still really curious about this particular point. I don't doubt she's a bit nuts and maybe "evil" too, but being nuts is usually not enough to gain power, authority and credibility.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 01:29:44 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 04, 2022, 01:00:32 amShe's not nuts. Or evil. She didn't set out to do harm to anyone but she became obsessed and delusional in believing it was possible to run a complete spectrum of hundreds of tests with tiny finger prick samples. The dilutions were introducing errors in test accuracy and the tiny machines were always going to present insurmountable problems with miniaturisation.Maybe she was a bit evil but I don't think she set out to be evil. I think she slid into it and just kept digging. But listening to the podcasts on the trial and reading the book you have to wonder at the secrecy inside Theranos and the unusually tight need-to-know silos where some teams were not allowed to see what others were doing. That is where I start to think the slide into fantasy wasn't accidental and she knew it was a pipe-dream early on.Her authority came from being CEO of a Silicon Valley startup and her influence was bought in the form of very high profile board members who carried substantial gravitas.There's sure to be more to come on appeal.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 01:47:51 am
content: I dunno if she is nuts or evil. But whatever, this is sort of irrelevant. Just a thought - because many have called her evil. And as time was passing by, I admit she was starting to look a bit spooky.Quote from: wilfred on January 04, 2022, 01:29:44 amWell, anyone can be CEO of a Silicon Valley startup these days. Almost everyone also knows that a good 80% of them are bullshit.As to how she was able to "buy" those high-profile board members - and keep them on board, while definitely some things were starting to be questioned along the way - is also a bit of a mystery. But that in itself is not enough, IMO, to give power and credibility. That again is very common. That's almost how all startups are built these days - using a a few PHDs as staff members and a couple professors as board members. This is cool but isn't enough to give a project credibility. At least, it certainly should not.Quote from: wilfred on January 04, 2022, 01:29:44 amYep, I'm pretty curious. Because whatever is going to happen, it's going to set a precedent. And if it could drill some sense into some people and future investors, maybe then, something will be gained from it all. If not, it will happen again, and investors will keep injecting loads of cash into pure bullshit startups. Of course this is particularly bad here because it dealt with health, but the point is still a general problem.Then again, for as long as it happens, we'll have stuff to write about in this forum section. =)

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 05:25:16 pm
content: I'm more bothered about the mental state of all the people suckered by such a transparent charlatan. This seems like a classic Emperor's new clothes event.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 05:38:37 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 04, 2022, 01:29:44 amThe expression is "Fake it until you make it". She didn't make it. It works for certain obstacles, like the financial and practical hurdles Tesla faced, but it doesn't work out when your underlying technology simply can't work, like U-Beam. With Theranos, I'm not sure if the claimed technology can ever be made, but I suspect it can. Essentially her downfall was that she claimed that they already had it working--and sold it to the public--when they didn't. Sort of like 'Full Self Driving'.Frankly I'm a bit dismayed that we prosecute these things as investor fraud. I say screw the investors if they aren't diligent. She should have been prosecuted for fraud against medical patients and for that every person in the company who was fully aware of what was going on deserves hanging. IMO.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 05:54:50 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 04, 2022, 05:25:16 pmThat's my point all along, yes. Glad at least one person here sees it the same way.As to this happening again, unfortunately, I'm almost certain it's going to. And possibly in health-related startups too, especially since those are booming these days.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 06:03:55 pm
content: They all wanted to believe

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 06:14:31 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 04, 2022, 05:54:50 pmOf course it will happen again. All the bad stuff from history will eventually see a re-run. It looks like millions of youngsters have been convinced our current way of life is so messed up, we'll soon be back under feudalism.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 07:05:30 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 04, 2022, 01:47:51 amNot as much if you look who her parents are.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 08:17:19 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on January 04, 2022, 05:38:37 pmBecause there are two types of leaders in those situations. Those who genuinely believe their invention(s), will succeed and work well, in the future, as long as it received enough monetary investment. Such as detecting Gold from a very long range, using only rf for the detection. A leader really could believe in that (or many other things, such as free energy machines). In which case they probably shouldn't be prosecuted, if the investments, eventually fail.Alternatively, there are leaders who know full well, that the 'invention', such as a crystal which 'magically' cures badly ill people, or an audio cable which 'amazingly' improves the over all sound quality, well beyond what an electronic engineer would consider, even vaguely reasonable. Who in real terms are con artists, and are basically defrauding investors and the buying general public.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 09:19:31 pm
content: It's funny, but over the past few days I've been seeing TV ads in the UK from nu*an.com offering disease diagnosis (not just erectile dysfunction) based on mail in finger prick blood samples.I don't know whether it's just coincidental timing with the Holmes trial verdict, whether I've developed heightened sensitivity to them, or whether they figure that any publicity is good publicity.I'm not suggesting that they're doing anything more dodgy than charging people for sending them a few drops of blood. Not something I would have any confidence in though!.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 09:22:15 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on August 29, 2021, 02:21:13 pm"Don't stick your soldering iron in crazy."- Sun Tzu

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 10:01:04 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on January 04, 2022, 09:19:31 pmAre they saying you can buy this service now, or are they being vague. I've seen lots of ads recently for things like this and amazing "molecular diagnostics", which describe futuristic things as if they can be bought today, when they can't. I think they are trying to create a buzz to get investor money to develop these things.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 10:08:33 pm
content: Those things are going to boom in the next few months/years. That's a guarantee. That's the new goldmine. And if one thinks that there won't be maybe half of them not similar to the Holmes' venture... well... =)

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 10:13:40 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 04, 2022, 10:01:04 pmNope they're offering it now...https://www.numan.com/fear-nothing/fear-nothing-blood-test. It's even free if they don't find anything - what are the odds!Edit: To be fair, the disease bit is only implied in the Ads.There's nothing better for stirring up peoples' fears than calling it a 'fear-nothing' test!

author: Just_another_Dave
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 10:37:07 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 04, 2022, 05:54:50 pmUnluckily, many startups nowadays are just scams made by people unable to judge if their product would be implementable, yet it is quite common that they offer a lot of promising results obtained with dubious tests. As most of them usually fail pretty quickly, the harm made is small enough to avoid ending up in the news. I’m quite sure that is only a matter of time to have a similar eventSome years ago a startup promising real time tracking nano-tags without batteries that could send their locations through the 4g network. In order to achieve it, they hired a group of computer scientists to “program” that feature in a SIM card. After several years without results, they decided to hire an electronics engineer to add an antenna to the card (by “programming” it without modifying the hardware), as they realized that they couldn’t send data without it. Obviously I declined the offer, but I laughed really hard while reading their specifications

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 10:41:36 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on January 04, 2022, 05:38:37 pmYep, fraud against investors, utter bollocks ... do your due diligence, losing money should be enough.As it stands we have a system of socialised losses and privatised profits.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 11:37:27 pm
content: It was a clown show top to bottom. Just look what general Mattis, the former US Secretary of Defence, who was the Board member at Theranos, did:QuoteReally? Buying two pamphlets was all that was needed?.Dear generals, please stick to what you know and do best.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 11:55:58 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 04, 2022, 10:41:36 pmWhile I agree that the Theranos investors should have had better sense, I assume that at least some of them were relying on the lead investor's good judgement and didn't want to upset their business relationships by being too difficult. A bad call this time, but maintaining relationships is a real factor in the VC world.And how are private VC losses socialized? There's no equivalent to FDIC (Federal Deposit Insurance) or other bailout. The best you can do is to write off your losses against other gains. Even after taxes it's still a loss, just not as big.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 12:19:28 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 04, 2022, 10:08:33 pmWhile I agree with you, it is definitely not new. Biomarkers are the object of a huge amount of research. We have had some hits, e.g., cancer detection from tumor markers and various proteins but it is never as easy as thathttps://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/cancer/in-depth/cancer-diagnosis/art-20046459but the claims are always out therehttps://www.healthline.com/health-news/this-new-test-can-detect-50-types-of-cancer-from-a-single-blood-drawBecause of the need to identify and treat and because of the difficulty of coming up with easy detection and therapeutics, PTSD and mTBI have been huge targets and I do know something about that. Certainly there is a huge amount of high risk / high reward research being funded and it is genuine - but not as close as the proposals often make it appear.As for the instant case, I remember asking biochemists and microbiologists at the time what they thought - their responses, as I recall, were always, I'd like to see how they do that.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 09:49:45 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on January 04, 2022, 11:55:58 pmThey're not truly socialised but they expect the courts to prosecute someone for their lack of due diligence.It's not enough to just go on reputation when you're spending millions!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 10:00:01 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 06, 2022, 09:49:45 amBut you're doing victim blaming here. I don't think things are as Black and White (clear-cut) as you are implying here. There are a number of factors. On the one hand, there should be decent due diligence on the part of the investors, but there is also requirements for the people you are investing with, to be honest and not scam merchants.Hiding real, large medical test equipment (not even made by them), used behind the scenes, to secretly create medical test results. Which were not produced by Elizabeth Holmes's new small medical test device(s), was a scam. So I agree with prosecuting such people.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 11:33:32 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on January 06, 2022, 10:00:01 amMaybe I'm just tired of VC's throwing millions at moronic projects that go nowhere, because they expect 90% of their investments to fail, and then expecting the courts to clean up their mess. No doubt the investors will sue Holmes personally. And, I suppose they will probably win pennies on the dollar. All while completely tying up the court system to the tune of millions of hours of wasted time for lawyers, judges and possibly juries.It leads to inefficient allocation of resources putting out fires like this. Due diligence on Theranos would have consisted of asking Theranos for published, peer reviewed research that describes their process, which could be protected by patents if Theranos was worried about proprietary technology being leaked. Or, they could have interviewed some of the staff involved in the process or research. Or watched carefully over a demonstration of a test performed. Yet it seems investors pretended as if the technology worked fine.The fact is Theranos only had a concept - not an implementation - and yet investors were still convinced it was a feasible product / technology. No doubt Holmes committed fraud, and she'll face the consequences for it. But why did it take this long?We see a similar issue with Nikola, who have defrauded investors to the tune of billions, with a truck rolling down a hill. For some reason, no one actually ever investigated whether they had feasible hydrogen fuel cell technology, despite the likes of GM pouring money into the company? It's really bloody weird. I probably spent a day's research on buying a £300 phone, yet a $500 million investment is agreed on the basis of napkin maths and a body-in-white.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 01:21:37 pm
content: It's sad that they are tying up the courts valuable time. I've heard these cases are also ridiculously complicated, and mean the unfortunate jury members, have to endure such a trial, for a rather long time and they are sometimes or often, bewildered by the complexities of such trials. But, assuming we agree to keep the laws as they are, as regards fraud, I don't know what the solution is. But it could be to have three (quantity can be changed), expert fraud judges, who make the judgement, without a jury.The Due diligence situation, reminds me of some of the Kickstarters, that are mentioned on these forums. In some cases, it is obvious to most of the people who are members of this forum, that it is a complete scam and technically/scientifically almost impossible, to achieve the stated goals.For example, a free energy machine, which charges up batteries using spinning magnets and fills an empty water bottle, with pure/fresh water, anywhere, within minutes.But in this case, I don't think it is that obvious, that a rather small medical blood test system, can't be developed, especially if billions of dollars are invested in it.But it is a pity, they weren't identified as scammers, much earlier. The Medical Test Experts and Technical Experts, should have spoken up and/or been consulted more. As you say, it should have had professional feasibility reports, or whatever is needed. Before investing in it big time.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 04:57:02 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 06, 2022, 09:49:45 amThe investors money is *gone*, and no court is going to get more than a tiny fraction of it back. The prosecution is to punish fraudulent behavior, and we hope discourage others from pulling this type of scam in the future.And in the VC world, there is a huge dependence on reputation. Due diligence can warn you if something is truly impossible, or perhaps impractical, but part of the VC spectrum is finding people that can figure out how to do the previously impractical and make it profitable. This is where reputation comes in big-time, and VCs expect that a large percentage of these will fail to deliver to their supposed potential.I would put U-Beam in the category of "truly impossible" -- not that some sort of sonic charging itself is impossible, but that what was being pursued was impossible. Those investors should have known better. I don't know if there was an actual scam though, or at least not in the early days.Theranos was more of an "impractical" development, one that could possibly be made practical by achievable breakthroughs. In hindsight, I suppose it should have been obvious that Holmes herself didn't have the skills to advance the technology sufficiently, but perhaps she would have been able to hire people who could. Early due diligence might have legitimately rated Theranos as a high-risk but potential big winner. Most of the investors were not technically savvy enough to do their own due diligence, but were relying on the reputation of the lead investor. This all turned into a scam as soon as Theranos started lying to the investors and clients about the status and capability of their product. I am surprised that the investors let this go on as long as they did, but they may have hoped that there would at least be some useful technology being created, which could be sold to reduce their losses. This is best done by acquisition, rather than after a company is shuttered -- when you have a "fire sale" situation. Honestly, if the investors were aware of the scam being perpetrated on the customers/victims then the investors themselves should also be prosecuted.(Most of my knowledge re. Theranos comes from reading "Bad Blood: Secrets and Lies in a Silicon Valley Startup". And I've been in a few startups. I also used to do a bit of "due diligence" work for my company and for VCs. )

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 05:57:17 pm
content: As with many other projects, the idea was all nice, and potentially very useful. No doubt about that. But that can be said for almost any other startup project that promises wonders. The ideas, *if* they can be realized, are almost always great - in terms of outcome. Problem is, they are very rarely practical, and the determining if the project is achievable or not IS the responsibility of investors AND board members. Anyone getting trapped while not having done their homework is a moron.Sure, sometimes things are very interesting, but very challenging, and even if you do your homework and the plans are clear, things can fail. Shit happens. But that's not the case here, not with many other startups. Doing proper diligence would have shown, almost from the start, that it was bound to failure. And, if not right from the start, because hey, hope is always nice, then along the way - before eventually injecting what? Billions of dollars?Who are they kidding?Punishing fraudulent behavior is all nice, but making it a purely individual problem, it's just a recipe for the same thing happening again and again, and ecouraging investors - and typically old retired chaps getting bored with their life - to do it all over again without ever taking any responsability, while THEY are the ones who can make all of this possible. Without money, you do nothing. So you have the utmost responsibility as an investor.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 06:31:32 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on January 06, 2022, 04:57:02 pmPart of the ugly underbelly of the VC world is the art of polishing the turds so that they can be pawned off by various means--rigging mergers with other unsuspecting companies or having a company (that the VC has sway over) 'acquire' them. I'm sure they let it go on as long as they did because they were looking for a less costly exit for themselves, and yes, if the board or main investors had knowledge of providing patients with faulty test results they should all go down.

author: N0NB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 10:26:58 pm
content: Quote from: magic on January 04, 2022, 06:03:55 pmI think that was really a large part of the story as well. For quite some time the story resembled a 21st Century Hollywood script.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 12:31:09 am
content: Quote from: N0NB on January 06, 2022, 10:26:58 pmYes, it certainly had (and has) some interesting aspects, but I don't know how much was simply a desire to believe.https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/04/verdict-in-fraud-case-of-theranos-founder-elizabeth-holmes-has-lessons-for-investors.html....Holmes raised $945 million from high-profile investors including the family of former Education Secretary Betsy DeVos, Rupert Murdoch and the Walton family of Walmart fame.Given the amounts raised and the net worth of some of these investors, I'm not even sure that they were in touch with the details at that level. I don't know this to be sure, but I think it is at least possible that others were handling their funds and they were simply trusted by the cash holders...until they were not.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 10:31:52 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 06, 2022, 11:33:32 amGM didn't pour any money into Nikola, not sure where you got that information from, they are not stupid.Quotehttps://fortune.com/2020/11/30/nikola-gm-deal-collapses-devastating-news/

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 10:57:08 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 07, 2022, 10:31:52 pmI do think GM was stupid to even let their name be associated with Nikola. I can just imagine GM's engineers saying "WTF did our marketing and lawyers just do???"

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2022, 10:12:10 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 07, 2022, 10:31:52 pmI'm not sure about the first part of that statement, but the second part is definitely wrong. They didn't let their entire European operations, and much of their market n China, slip away from them through brilliance.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2022, 05:58:09 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on January 04, 2022, 05:38:37 pmI very much doubt it can, because one of the major hurdles to the Theranos technology is that all blood isn’t the same. There’s a reason why different diagnostic tests require blood drawn from different body parts. (I had one full blood panel that required blood from 2 or 3 different locations.) Theranos’ entire idea is based on the false premise that capillary blood (what you get from a finger stick) can be used for all the tests, which it can’t. Even ignoring the dilution issue, if capillary blood doesn’t contain a representative amount of whatever compound you’re after, then it can’t be used for that test, period.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2022, 06:01:45 pm
content: Yes, that's right. The composition of a single drop of capillary blood isn't going to be useful for analyzing much. It's been proven to be adequate for glucose level testing (and even that isn't going to be very accurate). But beyond that...