Soldered 0805 vs 0603 vs 0402 vs 0201 vs 01005 vs 008004 today :) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: alexg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2017, 08:10:38 pm
content: Hi All, just wanted to share cool experiment I did today, I soldered few capacitors today on same board starting from 0805 down to 008004, all the way down to 0201 is super easy, at 01005 that's where fun begins but still quite possible even with 10x magnification. I may do this over again in couple weeks because pads for 008004 came a bit too small so part offsets when solder start flowing, which is fine but not aesthetically what I wantedI used to think 0603 is small

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2017, 09:10:08 pm
content: This will make a great reference picture aswell for many future readers, its sometimes hard to grasp just how small they are,I've had to do 01005 by eye before, It wasn't hard, but it wasn't easy, 008004 by eye is something i hope i never have to do.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2017, 11:23:04 pm
content: 008004? WTF? You just made that up.

author: alexg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2017, 11:41:24 pm
content: Its ridiculously small, this image from net shows them lined up on the match head and smallest one there is 01005, so 008004 is twice smaller that thatif you put it on your finer tip it will sink between fingerprint lineshttp://www.surfacemountprocess.com/uploads/5/4/1/9/54196839/8280339.jpg?302

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2017, 12:31:51 am
content: 0201= 0603 metric. 01005=0402 metric...what could possibly go wrong....?Guess why I have a strip of 01005 resistors in an unopened Digikey bag my drawer... ( it does occasionally come in handy when someone comments that 0402's are tiny.)Incidentally....2512, 2010, 1206, 0603, 0402, 0201, 01005... all 2:1 aspect ratioso why 0805 and not 0804? Anyone know?

author: hwj-d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2017, 12:44:41 am
content: Im so shaky, i only work with 1609 or 1610...

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2017, 12:47:01 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 12, 2017, 12:31:51 amI suspect it is arbitrary. Fun Question though.....

author: Pedro147
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2017, 08:02:04 am
content: Quote from: alexg on February 11, 2017, 08:10:38 pmThanks for the image alexg. I just started doing some SMD work with 0402 (imperial 1.0 x 0.5mm) and the thought of using these smaller sizes is horrific

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 30, 2017, 12:33:13 pm
content: I've hand soldered down to 0603 without too much difficulty. 0402 was fun, though - but I think that was more from the fact I was doing it on matrix board and the pads were a little too widely spaced.I have some 0201 resistors I bought cheap off eBay for challenging myself. Haven't opened them yet.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2017, 03:47:23 pm
content: You've beat this guy who hand-soldered 01005 a few years ago:http://donkey.vernier.se/~ghlargh/01005/index.html

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 30, 2017, 06:50:50 pm
content: I used to think 0201 was quite doable but that was before my eyes got badalmost everything has to happen under the microscope nowadays.Anything smaller than that risks getting damaged by tweezers too easily imo! Rather just reflow that stuff.

author: timgiles
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2017, 08:22:08 pm
content: Amazing. Not sure I could do that (hand solder) below 0402 - not even sure I could place those two smaller components and reflow it!Gonna have to buy some of them to show my colleagues - they thought 0201 was crazy.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2017, 09:43:52 pm
content: I wonder what the vacuum pickup needles look like for those things. The tweezers look gigantic.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 02:42:10 am
content: At that size, almost anything can cause component movement problems.Six molecules of condensed rosin vapour on the tip of the tweezers is enough to act like a blob of Blu-tack. (Perhaps aslightover-exaggeration.)

author: Pedro147
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 05:15:54 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on October 01, 2017, 02:42:10 amThat's no exaggeration at allSMD components sticking to the tweezers is the bane of my life.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 07:24:44 am
content: Quote from: alexg on February 11, 2017, 08:10:38 pmJust curious: What size of tip, and what diameter of solder did you use? Did you add extra flux?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 11:11:42 am
content: When 1206/0805 surface mount PCBs first started to appear the old 'gray beards' complained that 'electronics just wasn't serviceable any more'Now we have 008004 and people are still trying to solder it at home

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 12:40:14 pm
content: Quote from: Pedro147 on October 01, 2017, 05:15:54 amCleaning frequently with acetone will improve matters IME (stuff from a paint store/dept., not nail polish remover).

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 01:27:34 pm
content: As a hobbyist I think 0603 is the sweet spot... that size is where components get super cheap so you can order 100s rather than 10s.

author: plazma
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 01:53:54 pm
content: Quote from: NivagSwerdna on October 01, 2017, 01:27:34 pmAnd it is the smallest size with size code on resistors.

author: Pedro147
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 12:00:56 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on October 01, 2017, 12:40:14 pmThanksYes I tend to use Isopropyl but it's just a PITA having to do it all the time.

author: TheDane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 08:00:59 am
content: Quote from: Pedro147 on October 01, 2017, 05:15:54 amA quick question - your tweezers are non-magnetic, right?(if it isn't - get a set which is)Edit - changed 1=1 to 1=0; (if it isn't - get a set which isn't)

author: analogo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 08:11:34 am
content: Quote from: alexg on February 11, 2017, 08:10:38 pmMetric 0603issmall!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 08:26:25 am
content: Hol' up. There are two 0603s, depending on which side of the pond you are?

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 09:43:46 am
content: even on the metric side of the pond, i would imagine 0603 would mainly be thought of as the imperial footprint.

author: Pedro147
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 10:13:11 am
content: Quote from: TheDane on October 05, 2017, 08:00:59 amYes they are, thanks thoughIt is just the flux sticking to them.

author: analogo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 03:54:01 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 05, 2017, 08:26:25 amThere are also two 0402 and two 1005https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SMT_sizes,_based_on_original_by_Zureks.svg

author: khs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2017, 07:12:42 pm
content: If you want to use tiny (ceramic) capacitors, take into account the capacity decreases with increasing voltage.This effect increases with decreasing size, so very small capacitors may not work.https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app-notes/index.mvp/id/5527shows the effect for 1812 vs. 0603.0603 is not very small.

author: alexg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 03:33:51 pm
content: Hi All, just accidentally found out today that this post has been replied recently, I did that experiment back in February and not it is October, I am still learning, however I've been hand soldering under microscope every couple days day since then and now looking back I'm thinking it is not as scary as it seems all the way down to 01005, 008004 would still require individual attention but also very doable.If I had to give an advise to anyone doing exactly same experiment for fun, I'd say you need:- Good tweezers, that one on the picture I bought 2 years ago for about $6 - $7, I also have couple sets of those relatively cheap ones, the one you can buy off ebay for like few dollars for bunch, those are good for nothing, they flex too much, they look sharp at first glance but under 10x you can see that tips are uneven, no feedback at all, I only use them to pick dried silicone glue off a tip of nozzle. Those that I have in the picture have nice sharp even tips, non magnetic, made from some kind of nice steel, I think all small footprint SMD rework starts with good tweezers.- Do not drink coffee, lift any weights, move lawn, or do any physical labor before this project, this will make your hands shaky and won't get anything right, you can pick a component from the tray, etc, but once you place it on board and need to hold it steady or nudge it a little your movements won't be as precise as needed.- Get PCB pads size right, as you can see in my experiment pads for 01005 and 008004 spread apart more than they suppose to so those components we constantly pulled to one side more than the other so I had to constantly correct it into place bumping off center, etc. I think with right pad sizes it would have been much simpler.- Do not heat it with hot air from the top, even at slowest airspeed it will blow those 01005 and 008004 right off, apply heat from the bottom under components.- Do not try applying solder paste to 01005 and 008004 pads, its just too small, apply flux, then drag some solder with iron over pads it will make a solder bump on each pad, then place your component there and when you reheat solder from the bottom it will grab your component.- And of course you need a microscope, non of those head mountable magnification glasses will do the job in my opinion, I used SE400Z with 20x for this project and that was just right.My three favorite sizes now are 0603, 0402 and 0201 with most favorite being 04020603 is nice and juicy package with, resistors have printed values, capacitors have nice large values, easy to grab, easy to place, easy to flip if its upside down right on the spot, pad is big enough so applying solder paste is easy, etc0402 is my favorite, easy to maneuver under microscope, pad is still big enough to apply solder paste, it is very space saving, so when I design circuits I can fit more parts per square inch so to speak, love it.0201 I like very much too for its space saving abilities, but unfortunately moving it from tray to board, grabbing with tweezers, etc, is more challenging when you need to do bunch of them, one or two, okay, but when you need to populate a full board it will be annoying, also flipping them right way is a nightmare, they stick to tweezers etc,Those are my personal thoughts and observations, it may or may not work for others but hopefully it can help you a little.I have to redo this experiment again now as a skills refresherQuote from: ebastler on October 01, 2017, 07:24:44 am

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 04:29:35 pm
content: I was intending to do a video of making something useful at the WLCSP close pitch, 0201 and 01005 level, but haven't got around to it.In the meantime here's a couple of pics of how to flash an LED from a single 1.5v cell.There are some design considerations here; first you need something off the shelf that will work with 1.5v, and preferably down to about 1v. Second, your LED needs 1.6v to show any signs of life.This design uses some 0.8V logic, two schmitt trigger inverters in a single package. One oscillates at about 2Hz to flash the LED, but to get enough voltage to light the LED you need to up the game a bit, so the second schmitt trigger runs at around 10kHz and operates a single stage charge pump. This won't work properly above about 1.9v input or so as the schmitt trigger's output clamp diodes will start to conduct so you'll get dim/bright rather than on/off. Even the diodes are very carefully chosen for minimum Vf and Ir.Now the dual Schmitt trigger, an SN74AUP2G14, is available in a number of package sizes, but the smallest is a 0.4mm pitch BGA, so I went for that. None of this SC70 rubbish. The LED still flashes (just) down to 0.95v.Board is BusBoard SP3T-50x50-G.I found out a while back when soldering BGA/WLCSP packages in this way is that you need to use lead free solder, the connections become very brittle and fragile otherwise. Also for these reasonably high impedances you need to put the board in an ultrasonic bath: when I was debugging this board, and couldn't get it to work, I could see the ionic reactions bubbling away under the microscope. At that point I chose to put it in the bath, rinsed and dried it off, and ten minutes later it worked perfectly.As soon as you apply any flux again though, you need to re-clean.For normal stuff, 0402 and 0603 are my typical targets: 0201 and smaller are typically more expensive, so for volume production it doesn't make sense unless size is a key design parameter.Note this is the package top view, when flipped on the board to break out, pinout is mirrored.Penny, SOT23 and 8 pin DIP for comparisonFWIW, a few months ago I did do a video soldering a 0.5mm 20 pin WLCSP to a breakout board.https://youtu.be/e9mdGqu1aZ0

author: Pedro147
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 06:16:59 pm
content: Quote from: alexg on October 09, 2017, 03:33:51 pmThanks for the great insights and tips alexg.Nice work on the BGA breakout and LED circuit too Howardlong

author: adras
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2017, 05:43:52 pm
content: Impressive, well done! Too bad all these magnified pictures don't really show the real size.I recently failed building this kit:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-Factory-Price-DIY-Spherical-Rotating-LED-Kit-POV-Soldering-Training-Kit-blue-and-red/32755860635.html?ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_1_10152_10065_10151_10068_10344_10342_10343_10340_10341_10193_10194_10304_10307_10060_10302_10155_10154_10056_10055_10054_10059_10534_10533_10532_100031_10099_10338_10339_10103_10102_10052_10053_10107_10050_10142_10051_10320_10321_10322_10084_10083_10080_10082_10081_10177_10110_10111_10112_10113_10114_10180_10312_10313_10314_10184_10319_10078_10079_10073_10186,searchweb201603_14,ppcSwitch_5&btsid=0c5f1b34-f2ed-4ea9-9ec2-c59d0a27e281&algo_expid=efa01a5c-a789-4d7b-bbb9-9d83de61949b-1&algo_pvid=efa01a5c-a789-4d7b-bbb9-9d83de61949bSoldering the LEDs is a huge pain in the ass. So if you're looking for a challenge try that kit. And send it to me when you're done

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2017, 08:09:22 pm
content: More nerdy micro soldering. This time a 12 ball WLCSP ATTINY20, I believe to be the world's smallest MCU (before you go to bare die), set up as a blinky. There's a SOT23 and DIP8 there for comparison.The LED is 0603, about the same size as the MCU, and you might just be able to make out the 01005 current limiting resistor. Pitch is 0.4mm offset, so a bit more dense than a straight 0.4mm pitch, makes soldering the middle balls interesting, both of which are used.The programming header is 0.05" pitch.

author: Pedro147
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2017, 08:33:15 pm
content: Howardlong you have far too much time on your handsBut no seriously this is fantastic work. A video of your creation in action would be awesome if possible one day.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2017, 11:50:22 pm
content: Quote from: Pedro147 on October 18, 2017, 08:33:15 pm+1If you hadn't made the above couple of posts, I'd never have thought doing something that small possible without an adapter board or custom PCB.Even using my microscope, I'm still not sure I could manage it though (essential tremor in my hands and arms).At least my neurologist said I don't have Parkinson's.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2017, 04:15:05 pm
content: Close to masochism..For the sake of fun i would like to see a similar video but by someone who has parkinson!Howardlong deserveson his shoulder for his soldering achievements!

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2017, 04:58:09 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on October 01, 2017, 11:11:42 amWell yeah, it is not serviceable any more. Why there is a such thing as a board swapping if it would be truly serviceable.

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2017, 05:04:10 pm
content: I think I need these tools to enjoy the future of electronics as a hobby:https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61vilOmXMCL._SX522_.jpghttps://www.motoman.com/hs-fs/hubfs/Blog_Robots/Application_Robot_Page_Images/SDA10_600px.jpg?t=1508273115461&width=300&name=SDA10_600px.jpg

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2017, 11:01:30 pm
content: Quote from: Vtile on October 19, 2017, 04:58:09 pmEven if a board is technically capable of being reworked (and may be at some point after an initial board-swap to get the customer up and running as quickly as possible), the labor rate usually makes it more expensive.

author: Pedro147
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2017, 12:16:19 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on October 19, 2017, 11:01:30 pmA very valid point. Aside from the cost constraints, there is also a lack of knowledge when it comes down to diagnosis and component level repair of some of today's devices. People like Louis Rossmann, Ipad Rehab, Chris Long and STS Telecom among others on Youtube are leading the way in showing what is possible particularly in the area of Apple products.I suppose because the cost of these devices is high, it can make it more attractive to have them repaired seeing as Apple refuses to do nothing but the most basic repairs to their products

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2017, 01:20:10 am
content: For really small parts, say 0402 or less, just the tinning from a HASL coat is enough to solder. Dot pads with a flux pen, place the parts, and apply heat - hot air, plate, oven, etc. Igenerallypersonally prefer ENIG plating (mainly so boards don't corrode just sitting around), but sometimes HASL is pretty handy. On the down side it's less flat for larger ICs, and makes them every so slightly harder to align (the tinning bulges), but not a big deal.Wiha bent tip ESD safe tweezersare pretty good.Edit: I'm a fan of Lindstrom hand tools in general, and decided to buy a set of their TL ESD tweezers to try them out. So now have these on order:http://www.techni-tool.com/844TW030

author: Pedro147
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2017, 03:06:50 am
content: Interesting take on HASL which I normally use. Also an informative write up on surface finisheshttp://www.epectec.com/articles/pcb-surface-finish-advantages-and-disadvantages.htmlSome nice tools there and yes good tweezers are so important aren't they.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2017, 09:20:36 am
content: Quote from: bson on October 20, 2017, 01:20:10 amVOMMis the ODM for Wiha tweezers. That particular shape is a #7 on the Swiss profile list.Ideal-tekis the ODM for Lindstrom's tweezers (Bernstein,TDI, and others), and the vast majority of mine are ideal-tek (brands vary). FWIW, I've a pair of TA w/ conductive ceramic tips, NC (#6), but the vast majority are SA.TA= titanium, softest spring force; these can handle 1400C continuously without issueSA= stainless, anti magnetic, and anti-acid; medium spring forceNC= nickel-chromium, strongest spring force IME; to put this in perspective, it's similar to a decent ball point penAll of these are chemical and non-magnetic. Temperature tolerance varies (particularly TA with ceramic tips), as does hardness and weight of the alloy. TA would be the lightest, and NC the heaviest for a given shape for example.Erem(105pgs., .pdf) makes excellent tweezers, as well asDumont,Regina**,Rubis***, andSipel(all are Swiss made, and Sipel is the least expensive of these brands IME; do note they're not finished as well as the others).There's another company by the name ofViola* (COO=Italy), whose tweezers aren't bad either. These are almost always rebranded; mine are stamped Excelta (doesn't look like they carry Italian made any longer), but TDI also offers them (look for SA-I at the end of the P/N). To put these in perspective, Swiss made tweezers are usually spec'd at 0.001", while the Italian made are 0.003". Finish is nice IME.* Link is for a retailer as I wasn't able to find the company's website. They're less expensive than Swiss made as a general rule.** Be careful, there's fakes out that are made in China; they're easy to spot as the last I looked, they were going for ~$6 per pair (Vetus?). To put this in perspective, the genuine Swiss made Regina ~$30+ per pair.*** French company, but their tweezers are made in Switzerland.Example.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2017, 08:34:37 pm
content: Interesting, I didn’t know Ideal-Tek were the ODM for Lindstrom: I have a few of each, and Ideal-Tek are usually a bit cheaper.I have to say I am a complete noob about the grading and numbering of tweezers, and how it works across brands (or not). #7 seems to mean bent tip, which I like. Then there are different grades of sharpness, but I don’t know what the difference is in practical terms between, for example, fine, extra fine, and needle, but I know what I like.Is there a noob guide?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2017, 12:51:01 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on October 20, 2017, 08:34:37 pmYeah, I figured out a long time ago to find the ODM, as there's no other company's markup added to the price.Another that might be of interest, would beSchmitz, who only make cutters and pliers and is the ODM for companies like CK Tools, Bernstein, and NWS for example. Really good stuff IME, and typically 50%, sometimes less, than brands like Erem or Tronex's street prices (both make really good stuff too, but Schmitz offers a LOT more value due to their cost; performance is definitely on par). The fast majority of my pliers are Schmitz, and I've one of their cutters (CK Tools labeled). Most of my cutters I found used, usually in mint condition, on eBay for ~$10 each (Excelta branded Tronex, Erem, Swanstrom, and CK Tools).Regarding Swiss patters, take a look at any of the other Swiss tweezer makers, Ideal-tek in particular, or for a shorter list,Grobet. FWIW, these patterns were originally designed for watchmaking, the shapes have applications with electronics as well. But instead of INOX used in watchmaking (stainless steel that's magnetic), they're TA, SA, or NC (there are other alloys, such as one that contains Cobalt).

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2017, 05:18:03 am
content: I did a video of soldering up a complete circuit from beginning to end with a 0.4mm BGA package, and 0201 and 01005 passives, including the good, the bad, and the downright ugly. I need to remember to stop drinking a pint of coffee before doing this stuff!https://youtu.be/JWS2NWK3D4gEdit: this is my first attempt at a multi-camera setup, which kicks in at 07:20 after an introduction. I was running four cameras, and switched between them all in post. It definitely adds a lot of time for editing.

author: Pedro147
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2017, 05:41:46 am
content: Wow thanks a lot Howardlong I for one appreciate you taking the time to do this.Just about to sit down and watch your handiwork. It is going to be good

author: ElektroQuark
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2017, 05:42:39 am
content: A lot of time but a lot of fun too.I have three videos on my Youtube channel right now (just started), but I'm really considering a multi-camera setup, even a multi-angle setup.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2017, 10:27:00 am
content: Rather than doing the switching completely manually, I have a multicam plugin that comes with the software I use (Powerdirector) which supports up to four cameras. I can't particularly say one way or another whether this software is any better than any other software, as the only other video editing I've ever done is with Moviemaker.The plugin allows me to select up to four media files, and allows you to sync them all up in the plug in by a number of means, I use an audio analysis. You can then compare and choose a default audio channel. You then play all four channels together, selecting which camera view you want with the mouse or the number keys 1, 2, 3, 4 corresponding to the camera view in "real time", but you can also go back and change. This is obviously far faster than having to completely manually edit dozens if not hundreds of separate clips.On playback I noticed that some of the focussing isn't quite right, so I need to pay more attention to that next time. Getting a decent image through the camera port of the microscope is tedious, as it requires fine and repeated adjustment, and is of course co-dependent with the eye piece focus which is what I'm seeing.Three of the cameras I use have a half hour cut off, so I have to remember to take a break to re-start recording. Thankfully I did remember!One of the cameras will do 4k/50p, and you can pretty easily tell from the video which one that is. The other cameras will also do 4K but only at 25fps. I prefer 50fps, I find it's smoother, so I run them in 1080p, all with a shutter speed of 1/100th across all cameras to reduce motion blur. I also ran some of the cameras with the "ex tele conv" which crops the frame to native pixel-for-pixel resolution increasing zoom without deteriorating quality.There's a lot to learn.

author: TheDane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2017, 01:30:35 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on October 20, 2017, 09:20:36 amBesides the price, what should one be on the look out for to detect the fakes?Are they total crap, just the best of el-cheap'o tweezers - or are they actually usable in a pinch?Thanks

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2017, 10:02:50 pm
content: Quote from: TheDane on October 22, 2017, 01:30:35 pmI'd say they're usable if you're not using a microscope (FWIW, I have a 3.5x - 90x Amscope Simul-focul ). That said, the one's I'm familiar with have a wire brushed finished to them.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 02:34:45 am
content: Just when one starts to believe that they cannot make the components any smaller, the manufacturers will prove you wrong.Is there an equivalent dictum like "Moore's law" for SMT components?

author: TheDane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 11:41:27 am
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on October 23, 2017, 02:34:45 amComponents are really extinct today, actually - to the naked eye, they're gone. Inside the PCB....https://www.pcbway.com/blog/Engineering_Technical/Impact_of_integrated_passive_components_on_PCB_technology_development.htmlhttp://www.electronicdesign.com/embedded/use-embedded-components-improve-pcb-performance-and-reduce-sizeThere's a lot of info on the internet about 'removing' passive components on the PCB. Makes reverse-engineering a whole lot harder, and performing service as well.hmm... must be a reason why Altium can do a 3D board view inside the pcb- thanks Dave, oh - can you do a video on how the industry deals with 'em gone passives?

author: TheDane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 12:13:06 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on October 22, 2017, 10:27:00 amThanks for doing such awesome work on your video!The switching between views made it much more interesting, and I enjoyed watching the entire thing - great work!Coffee is no good for small high precision solderingSuperglue is also a no good thing - at all, at least on my desk and work area.I noticed that you splosh a lot of it on your wise in the beginning, and later on it seems you're dragging it all over the bench when you gather samples, move your tools and so on.It takes a long time to cure, is my experience only the outer layer hardens, so whenever I am forced to (supe)glue something - I just add a drop of water on top of component/pcb, and a few secs later I suck up excess water with a q-tip - and though the glue usually turns white, it can often be handled instantly afterwards.I have some old flux that has dripped down the side of the dispenser and the fluids evaporated. It is sticking like there's no end to it. I find it easier to scrape a tad bit off, and let it hold the component to the pcb/workarea. When the component is soldered, it usually sticks in place as the flux already is solid.Cleaning afterwards, as you clearly show is needed - it stops electrolysis of the flux components and contaminants acting as conductors - that's my understanding of why its bubbling. Alcohol (flux) is carbon, oxygen and hydrogen bonded together, so it seems to me that it is degassing through electrolysis - and stops when you remove power.Yes, there's a lot to learn - thanks for letting me watch your work. I hope you can use my feedback./EgonBtw - it seem your logic input pin is very close to shorting to the VCC/GND pin, at the edge of the pad between your soldering via's. I know the viewing angles can be tricky, and it works.Big round of applause - you didn't say anything about a loosing a component.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 01:22:03 pm
content: Thanks TheDane for your informative links.This technology is hybrid circuit manufacture on steroids.Back in 1986, in the company I used to work, we incorporated a hybrid design in our product. The learning curve was steep, and during the first year of manufacturing there were lots of scrap.What was state of the art back then, it is a trivial matter nowadays.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 02:27:16 pm
content: Do you know any Commercial PNP machines for doing 008004, I have seen myDTA top of the lines one can do till 01005, and I thought it was not safe to mass produce with them either...

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 09:50:59 pm
content: The only point of the superglue is to tack the device down long enough to run a couple of wires off it, beyond that it has no raison d’etre.You’re right, I really ought to put a small dose on a disposable bit of paper rather than the side of the vise, but you can probably see the remnants of where I’ve done it before, it doesn’t make it right though!I just took another look under the microscope, the Schmitt trigger input looks fine as far as I can see? I’ll post a pic.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 09:56:04 pm
content: Schmitt input is ball A1, bottom left in this pic.

author: TheDane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2017, 09:14:46 am
content: Thanks Howardlong,I'm referring to the pad right below the Schmitt trigger. It looks like both the wires going to the Schmitt trigger is touching this pad, but it is working - so I presume there's no short.(The distance is very minimal, literally close to 'short' - and the flash over/spark gap voltage is likely very low.)I miss having a good Stereo microscope, as it gives a good dept-vision/impression.Dream-visionNext up: 3D-Super macro videos on YouTube.- I hope the next step in video editing software suites is 3D multicam setups for super close up nerdy video editingLove having electronics a hobby, as long as I don't burn or glue my fingers, eyes, etc.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2017, 11:53:00 am
content: If you look closely, you can see the shadow of the wire. None of the four middle pads are used, or connected (or at least shouldn't be!).

author: PixieDust
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 02:42:07 am
content: How would you go about making a matrix of 0.65mm x 0.35mm (I think these are called 0201)? With pads underneath?From what I'm seeing:1.) A reflow oven would be necessary2.) Solder paste and a stencil/templatebut how would go about arranging the actual 0.65mm x 0.35mm components?

author: Pedro147
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 06:55:38 am
content: I just completed the Hackaday SMD Challenge which had two 0201 components on it and I just used solder paste applied with a fine needle and hot air.Admittedly I do have a reasonable Amscope microscope which for me is essential - old eyes syndrome

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 09:08:22 am
content: To PixieDusthttp://www.resistorguide.com/resistor-sizes-and-packages/In the middle of the page is the land pattern.as the land pattern allows the component to move +- 0.3mm while still connecting, I would likely use a 0.3mm courtyard lengthwise, and a 0.15mm courtyard widthwise, (exclusion gap around the component), to prevent nearby parts forming against each other,

author: PixieDust
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 02:00:49 am
content: Ah so metric vs imperial fair enough.My problem is that I'm trying to cram the LEDs into a matrix. They are right next to one another and their pads are underneath. I've been doing additional research and it seems like a pick and place machine would be the only option. Especially when talking about the quantities of LEDs that I'm talking about ~4000.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 02:41:38 am
content: for a 4000 LED array, 100% i would say use a pick and place machine, the IPC footprint standards are in place to maximize yield of placed components, e.g. reducing tombstoning, and cross pad skew,for these standards, there are still options, e.g. least, nominal and most, referring to the sizing of the pads, least having only the exact minimum amount of pad the component needs, but risks lower tolerance to small placement issues, and variation in the thickness of your solder paste layer,e.g.https://blogs.mentor.com/tom-hausherr/blog/2010/09/22/pcb-design-perfection-starts-in-the-cad-library-part-2/If your confident in your manufacturers capabilities you can always push past these recommendations, but again, your yield may suffer.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 11:55:37 am
content: Quote from: PixieDust on February 11, 2018, 02:00:49 amDo you really need to build this from discrete LEDs? This sounds like a use case for a small OLED or TFT display. Have you checked whether something suitable is available off the shelf? I would be prepared to accept significant design changes to avoid such a large array of discrete components -- e.g. by adapting the aspect ratio or size, or switching to a higher-than needed number of pixels.Besides the need to make reliable electrical connections, won't you also have a requirement to align the LEDs quite precisely to make the arrangement look right when in operation? I assume this is some kind of display application. Depending on what content you want to display, the user's eye might be quite sensitive to small irregularities in LED spacing.

author: PixieDust
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 12:31:07 pm
content: The device I'm trying to make hasn't been made in decades and finding one is going to be next to impossible. At the moment, I can indeed use an OLED or TFT display, but I recently found some more information on it that prompted me to start researching doing this thing the hard way. It is a visual display device but it can be broken down into smaller bits. I want to start small and then build up. I don't need to make the whole thing in one go. I want to make a tiny matrix to see if it's technically possible then move onto making the whole thing of 4000 LEDs or whatever it is.I'm probably asking stupid questions, but you don't know until you know.Yep, the LEDs need to be placed precisely. But close enough should do since the surface tension of the reflow process should position them correctly according to my research. They made the original device somehow after all.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 04:19:07 pm
content: More ultimate hand soldering dead bugging miniaturisation geekery, this time a blinky with the world's smallest ARM, in a 1.45mm x 1.55mm 16 ball 0.35mm pitch WLCSP Cypress CY8C4014FNI-421 Cortex M0.