JBC rework & soldering setup vs. Hakko rework & soldering setup. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: vze1lryy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 12:39:29 am
content: If anyone else is at the crossroads of whether to get JBC or hakko this may help out.I am hiring someone to help out with PCB repairs here at work so my plan was to give them my setup and upgrade to something nicer for myself. I had the chance to try out some larger JBC irons, the micro iron, the hot air station, and recorded a detailed comparison to my current no frills hakko setup doing some small microbga work and QFN soldering. The first two recordings of me soldering died because of software glitch so what I have is my third take around 1 or 2 in the morning which is a sad state of soldering but I go through some usage of the different irons so you can get an idea of how they work.The JBC stuff is clearly amazing, top of the line product, but I was surprised that the Hakko worked 99% as good, if not as good, for the basic tasks I threw at it. If you are like me and have always had JBC gear envy because it looks amazing. I have used it and it was amazing, but I had never used it next to my standard station. While I love it, while the interface is 10000x better than any of the Hakko alarm clock nonsense, getting work done with either of these is the same to me.I was impressed with the precision hot air. EVERY company selling a thin hot air handpiece, Weller, hakko, or otherwise has sent out junk that I cannot use on a multilayer PCB. This JBC hot air handpiece is very micro, very slim, and rips things off the board on par with my FR-801 which is nearly three times the diameter!JBC stuff is amazing, absolutely top of the line. but if you are like me and have your little $900 soldering/hot air setup, and are looking at the $3000 setup wondering if it will change your life, IMHO, it won't. It's luxury quality equipment but this gets the job done the same for me. YMMV!

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 02:46:16 am
content: Quote from: vze1lryy on November 17, 2015, 12:39:29 amFor your own reference the first removal with the Hakko took 2mins and the second with the JBC about 3.5mins.What is your justification on all other models being junk? Do they not have enough airflow or too much airflow such as the pump or incorrect nozzle, not enough heating? Do you ever preheat the board or just crank the hotair to max and then go for it?I felt after watching the first part of your video that you were just trying to remove a component with a large ground as fast as possible and that was the whole review.I've seen a $50 hot air station used to perform large BGA rework, so would you agree that there is amount of experience involved or do you think there is some specification or design aspect (aside from reliability) that makes these superior to other models?Since you're in business have you thought about getting certification/IPC training with a company like BEST?

author: vze1lryy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 03:43:04 am
content: QuoteThe JBC took longer on the first go since I accidentally hit the button that turns it off on the handpiece. It's in a really inconvenient place right on the handpiece, very easy to hit by accident and not notice! That doesn't speak to the technical heating proficiency of the unit, but it does speak to its practical usability. I know other people will accidentally hit this button, so it is worth leaving in. If you check out removal of the ISL6259 and the LP8550 chip, they really are neck and neck. With the all in one units I tried from Weller and Hakko that had a "pencil" hot air, there was no amount of time I could give it to remove an ISL6259.. that was not coming off.QuoteFor me the 6L/m airflow limit on FM-206/FM-2029 is painful. The problem is that for virtually the same price I can buy a dual port station + a proper hot air station that is much more powerful. I preheat for BGA rework with a ZM-R6200c machine. I'd never attempt large scale BGA rework without preheating; but for something like an LED driver or a small connector I don't find much benefit to preheating.If the all in one were considerably cheaper, I could consider it. However, all too often, the all in one station costs as much as discrete components and the discrete ones in this case are much more versatile - at least that was my experience with the WR3000M and FM-206QuoteI did desolder and solder a QFN with a heatsink/ground pad that has high thermal mass, as well as do a microbga with both stations. I completely understand if this is too long for anyone to want to watch, but I feel unfair to say the entire review was desoldering one component with a large ground plane. The ISL6259 and LP8550 are two components that a lot of newbies to soldering/rework in general have great difficulty soldering on properly, particularly the ISL6259 due to the thermal mass in this area of the board. I feel it is worthwhile to include how both stations handle this.QuoteIt's skill. I know people who can use a Scotle IR6000 to do large BGA rework. I tip my hat to them, it's not something I can do. I have too many issues with cheap hot air. I know exactly how long it will take me every time to get an SMC, an LVDS MUX, an LED driver, and so on and so forth on the board. It works predictably. For me hot air by hand is more about feel than precise profiles and times and I find it hard to get a feel for a station that works differently everytime I turn it on. I recently tried to use a BAKU hot air station to remove a connector and I just gave up. I also had much trouble getting the Atten 858D to do anything on multilayer PCBs, even with preheat.QuoteI haven't had any IPC certification or training. If my job were professional solderer, I would go for it - but no one in their right mind would hire me solely for soldering. My job's meat and potatoes is complex analysis/diagnosis and finding the flaws. What brings me business is being able to solve complex problems on complex PCBs that someone else cannot. For me, the best investment of my time is in bettering my ability to quickly & efficiently solve those problems, not take an IPC certification.Most of what I do would make certified solderers cringe. Combining leaded & lead free so that my six jumpers don't move when soldering a chip on top of it. There are a lot of oddball things I do to revive things that have been pee'd on or dunked in coca cola. My health limits how accurate anything I do with my hands is going to be so if I were looking to advance in any direction it most likely wouldn't be towards becoming a more proficient solderer.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 05:10:38 am
content: Nice. Not everyone gets the chance to unbox these machines and put them to any kind of head-to-head test on video.I'll be more interested after you have used these devices for several months and purchased all the tips you might want for both.The pencil anti microbial grip aside, I wonder if you can tell any difference between a $80.00 hot air station and a $1900 one? It seems like hot air is 95% feel, aside from having enough power to begin with.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 05:26:16 am
content: I absolutely love hot air when messing with old leaded solder boards. Such a dream, it's like waving a magic wand and all the ICs do exactly what you want.I'm getting used to hot air with unleaded. Pain in the arse. I need a pre-heater really. I like OP's tip on waggling to make sure a BGA is reflowed properly!I fecking hate those cunts that superglue all the components down. Why?Having said that my new solder station I got from TopLoser for sweet FA is actually quite good. I am of course talking £50 here, not £500 or £5000 !!!

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 05:58:36 am
content: Talking about health concerns I would be surprised if you don't already have Toxoplasmosis from handling boards which have had animal contact. They think it's linked to schizophrenia and other mental illnesses, and especially affects people with a weak immune system. I'd be wearing appropriate gloves if I was you.I can't say an anti microbial handle is something I'd need to be concerned with myself. A smooth surface is much easier to keep clean or sterilize and prevents moisture from being built up, but it obviously won't have the anti slippage or heat dissipation properties.Quote from: Macbeth on November 17, 2015, 05:26:16 amWave soldering in most cases, it's really unavoidable.

author: vze1lryy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 06:09:31 am
content: Quote from: Shock on November 17, 2015, 05:58:36 amI am usually wearing those nitrile gloves like what you see in the video. Most of the time it is coca cola or beer or water, but on rare occasion someone will lie..... I know the smell of cat piss. The board gets dunked in the ultrasonic, then alcohol bath, then dries for a day before I touch a thing.I try to stay on top of my health as much as I can for the business I am in. I have an alive air purifier in the room, a Hakko FA-430 always running on the desk on high so long as I am sitting with gear that is on, and a window vent with fan. I really have no desire to inhale any of this junk or to get it on my skin on a regular basis. I am confused by people who will inhale everything and get flux on their hands and smile and keep working.Quote from: Shock on November 17, 2015, 05:58:36 amSmooth surface is easier to clean with certain wipers. Paper towel will break off into fibers trying to clean those anti microbial handles, but I have piles and piles of clean room wipers good for that. It comes down to personal preference. If I were not wearing gloves, I would have a preference for the anti microbial handle. I didn't start out wearing gloves so that preference has stuck.

author: vze1lryy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 06:19:16 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 17, 2015, 05:10:38 amPrecisely why i wanted to post such a long video! I could not find any information, just anecdotes. I know I haven't soldered everything there is to solder, far from it, but I feel it gives people with questions something more of an answer than just text anecdotes. You still have to use it to figure out if it is for you. Nothing will be the same as sitting down and using it. Buy lunch for someone at a lab or rework facility in your area and beg them to let you in.Quote from: KL27x on November 17, 2015, 05:10:38 amI don't plan on keeping it very long. I have very limited space, it is inconvenient to have multiple stations on such a small desk in a small office. It's already boxed up. Quote from: KL27x on November 17, 2015, 05:10:38 amI definitely can.That one was much more dramatic as a piece of crap than other cheap hot air. Baku was junk. he Atten/Youyue 858D, but that too worked like junk for me. I am sure with enough preheat I might be able to remove a chip from a multilayer PCB, but again, when you add the cost of aqualitypreheater to the cheap hot air you wind up pretty close to good hot air. I understand well the benefits of preheating, the principles behind using less heat on components, and how it is a good practice. At the same time, when removing a chip half the size of my pinky fingernail with no ground plane, I shouldn't need to be using a large preheater. Same for a lot of small dual mosfet packages that refused to come off with the 858D and other cheap stations.I absolutely wish someone made a station that in a blind test I couldn't tell apart from what I used. I love stuff that works, but I am also a cheapskate. Paying $650 for something that blows heat makes my stomach turn. I just did it out of necessity after so many shit stations. You really need something that is accurate, powerful, and consistent at blowing a narrow stream of hot air exactly where you want it if you are going to have success replacing chips half the size of your pinky fingernail with 20-50 balls under them without burning anything around it.A few students had mentioned to me that they were instructed to buy that BAKU pile of crap, and they were very confused why nothing they were doing was working. When they started working on their own boards with this stuff it just came naturally. They actually thought they were clueless, but sitting down at FR-801/FX-951/FM-2027/FM-2032, it was easy.Talented technicians will always make it work. My good friend uses a black & decker paint stripper and is probably one of the best in this niche field that I occupy. I'd take a black & decker paint stripper over an Aoyue/youyue/atten any day.

author: vze1lryy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 06:22:50 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on November 17, 2015, 05:26:16 amIt's a must for me. At the end, yawing the hot air handpiece side to side to make the chip "dance" confirms for me that not only has the chip melted, but also center balls have melted as well which are harder to get to.I have a $7300 BGA machine next to $750 in camera/inspection/measurement equipment on the other table between the 39" LCD, the ZM-R6200c, the BGA rework camera I use, and the thermocouples I bought with it. With that, feel doesn't have much to do with it, you can literally see everything as it is happening and know precise temperature on the board in the location you are soldering. Prior to having that... yeah, a lot of making the chip "dance" to confirm it's soldered.I still use that method with microbga. I'm not firing up that machine for a seven minute profile to solder an LED driver, that's for sure!!!

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 03:41:43 pm
content: That tip cleaner looks very interesting. I am using brass and a wet sponge but indeed their are often left overs. Are those metal brushes inside? Do they wear the tip faster?Also found this video

author: wblock
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 04:32:34 pm
content: There are images of it on JBC's site athttp://www.jbctools.com/clmb-a-senior-tip-cleaner-product-868-category-15-menu-1.html,http://www.jbctools.com/clmb-a8-brushes-for-clmb-a-product-846-category-9-menu-70.html.The brushes are probably very fine brass. My guess is that the wear won't be appreciably different from jamming a tip into brass curls.Incidentally, that tip cleaner is around $400. There are cheaper variations. Well, pretty much all the others are cheaper, but the same idea. I'm tempted to build one. Two motors, two brushes, a switch. Microcontroller, LCD display, status LEDs, USB, Ethernet, Wifi, Bluetooth, clock radio, and coffee maker optional.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 04:54:47 pm
content: No on the switch. It defeats the purpose. I mean we are trying to be as lazy as possible, if dabbing the tip into a brillo is too much hard work then clicking a switch is even more stressful. I would use a hall effect sensor.And as for that Baku vidI think OP really has Toxoplasmosis / Hex Vision.Reminds me of Rimmer and Mr Flibble

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 10:16:59 pm
content: One hour into the review now, I really like this review, even if it is long.I have a couple of jbc's already, so I'm kinda biased though.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 12:12:22 am
content: Quote from: wblock on November 17, 2015, 04:32:34 pmRechargeable battery would be nice. One less cable to worry about.There is another category of motorized tip cleaners called 'polishers', I presume they are intended for occasional cleanup of really dirty tips.http://www.amazon.com/AMERICAN-HAKKO-PRODUCTS-INC-Polisher/dp/B000PDUMVE

author: wblock
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 03:06:53 am
content: That Hakko looks very much like the Quick 310, which popped up in a search earlier today. The Quick unit is about half the price.These automated cleaners aren't necessarily just a luxury. Some sites mentioned them for use with robotic soldering equipment, which makes sense. Maybe it could also be useful for cleaning the iron when you don't want to look away from the board.

author: vze1lryy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 03:44:19 am
content: If the tip cleaner cleaned from the moment you inserted the iron, it would be worth $310.Since you have to press down, it requires an equal amount of work to the little $5 thing of brass that I get for my Hakko. But it costs $310 instead of $5, or the free one that comes with any order of an FX-951.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 05:09:13 am
content: If you do a lot of hand through hole soldering like I do, you find that the brass wool can wear out very quickly, tangle up, snag on the tip of the iron and can otherwise be a bit of a pain in the butt after a while. A cleaner with whirring brushes that doesn't do any of that and lasts a long time is helpful in that kind of environment.But I still wouldn't pay $400 for it.Brass wool is cheap. I just replace them every week or 2 weeks or so. At least the ones I've been getting, at any rate. I tried all different brands. Most are horrible...some aren't too bad. I'm on to Hakko next. I still have the original brass wool that came with my Hakko station. They seem a lot stiffer and more durable than most.FWIW, I bought a Hakko heat resistant pad to change the tips on my JBC, though tip changing station on mine is tilted back and tip changes go smoothly regardless. The pad is especially good for aligning the tip in the iron, though. I also HATE the brass wool holder on my JBC (I have the compact, but yours is similar I think). What a piece of crap. It's specifically designed to make sure that the brass shaving always get crammed way into the back and get compressed down so you can't use them anymore. It's even got little ridges on the inside to make sure that once it gets pushed in a little, it can't come back out on it's own. WTF? Then you need to get some screw out from the bottom to replace it/clean it and you get lead dust all over the place. It's a really crappy design. I deal with it because the performance is pretty amazing. There are just some annoying things that are difficult to figure out how they ever made it through product testing. Surprisingly, some of it seems even worse on their more expensive modular line. The geometry on some of their tips is garbage too. Overall, I love the station, though.I just browsed around your channel a bit. Whatever happened with Erica?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 05:09:42 am
content: Quote from: vze1lryy on November 18, 2015, 03:44:19 amThe brass wool and sponge often leave solder and dirty on the tip.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 06:27:51 am
content: Quote from: vze1lryy on November 18, 2015, 03:44:19 amIn my kit I got the one on top of the page here, €44 unit:http://www.jbctools.com/cataleg.php?id=15But the one you got, is that the junior or the senior one?, I guess it's the biggest?

author: vze1lryy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 06:14:53 pm
content: Quote from: neslekkim on November 18, 2015, 06:27:51 amI was shipped the CLMS-A. $310 is a lot of money for something that massages the tip of your soldering iron!

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 08:01:12 am
content: Louis: Do you regularly use the FM-2032 in your rework/soldering? Or do you only find it useful once in a while?I've watched a lot of your videos, but it is often hard to tell which iron you are using due to the magnification.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 03:42:50 pm
content: Quote from: vze1lryy on November 17, 2015, 12:39:29 amNice review.Hakko certainly offers a lot of value for your money as a general rule.But the JBC stuff is nicer, and I do like Weller's interface on the WD and WR series stuff a lot better (not tried the WX, but it is comparable to the latest JBC gear from what I've seen in videos).Quote from: zapta on November 17, 2015, 03:41:43 pmFWIW, Hakko also offers such a unit (dual brushes), and even Aoyue (single brush), and both are less than the JBC version. Do note both the Hakko and Aoyue versions are justOnorOffIIRC, but that's a big deal IMHO. As mentioned however, I see these as a luxury rather than a necessity (if anyone recalls, a clean damp sponge can get a tip just as clean as the automatic brass bristle units), and isn't an issue with lead based solders.As per the brass wools, they're a consumable, so have to be changed out when necessary just like sponges (none of these are permanent, including the brass bristle brushes used in the fancy automatic units).BTW, the brushes are brass for every automatic unit I've looked into (Hakko, JBC, and Aoyue).Also, I'd have to give the edge to Hakko's brass wool over Weller's (COO is Japan & China respectively). I've also .pdf documentation that Hakko's wool has flux on it, if that means anything as well. Please note, I've never tried Weller's stainless wool, as it wears tips faster than brass (brass is softer than the iron plating; stainless, not so much, if at all, depending on the exact alloys used).

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2016, 05:22:02 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on March 07, 2016, 03:42:50 pmHow do you tell when to replace the brass wool? Is it ok to cleanup and put back?As for the sponges, in my experience they don't clean as well as the brass wool.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2016, 01:26:03 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on March 08, 2016, 05:22:02 amWhen they're mangled looking and stop cleaning properly (flux is gone). Assuming it's from a reputable manufacturer, you'll know (shifted from cleaning easily to takes longer, and eventually isn't clean enough). There's been some confusion if there's dried flux on it or not, but I've a saved .pdf from Hakko that states theirs are fluxed, and it's reasonable other top tier brands do as well. Other lesser known/budget labels, there's no way to know.FWIW, Hakko's brass wools are very nice; the Weller wool I have is just meh in comparison. When it's done, I'll shove a Hakko in the stand's wool cubby.As per cleaning, they're not meant designed to be cleaned. But I'll roll it about a table top to get at least some of the solder & gunk in it to fall out.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 04:10:46 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on March 08, 2016, 01:26:03 pmI have an old brass wool which I use and a new one still in the package, both from Hakko, so I decided to take a look at both of them under a microscope to see if I can see any difference. Below is a picture taken with a cell phone, the old on the left and the new on the right.The new one looks very shine vs the old one that is dull but the interesting thing is that the new one is significantly wider, 0.67mm vs 0.37mm. I presume that at least one of them is fake, but which of the two? IIRC I got the old one from Frys about two years ago and the new one from Amazon two months ago.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2016, 11:06:27 pm
content: ^ I have Hakko wool from 2012 and from 2015, and the difference is the same as you describe.I highly doubt this is "fake" Hakko brass wool. I highly doubt Hakko manufactures their own brass wool to a specific Hakko family recipe. They probably buy it from someone else, and that plant had to replace worn out tooling/machinery or Hakko changed suppliers.

author: plazma
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 05:36:41 am
content: If you get steel wool with your JBC you should discard it. It destroys the tips in few minutes. Brass wool is fine.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 03:22:45 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on March 16, 2016, 11:06:27 pmNo idea where they're getting it from, but it is made in Japan, not China, as is the case with Weller's wools.Quote from: plazma on March 17, 2016, 05:36:41 amFWIW, Weller offers both brass and stainless steel. Like you however, I won't touch the stainless version due to faster wearing of the tips. I'd rather use tip tinner if it gets really nasty as it's not frequent (flux in it is quite aggressive).

author: vze1lryy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2016, 10:32:47 pm
content: Quote from: dadler on March 07, 2016, 08:01:12 amThe 2032 is very handy with the T30-KN tip for a lot of stuff, and the T30-I is the only tip I can use for very small connections. A different iron isn't even an option for really tiny connectors.Most of the time the 2027 with a T15-JS02 tip will do. It will work as a large tip if you use the elbow, it will work as a tiny tip if you use the tip.