Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 10:55:54 pm
content: Some pretty interesting research results presented here by Jessica McDonald from SparkFun, definitely worth a watch if you are interested in the gender gap in STEM fields...

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 12:18:59 am
content: Hmm, I didn't actually know what a fandom was.If it helps to give kids role models to follow, then that is a good thing. I suspect that as IT moves from industrial and engineering domains to social and consumer domains the gap will fix itself, as much as it can.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 12:46:45 am
content: Complete political BS.First of all, I don't know why girls have to be in stem. Each of us is different and what's important end of the day is that we do things we are good at and we want to do. I am not knowledgeable enough to prove or disprove that girls naturally share a competitive advantage or desire to be in stem.Secondly, I do think that everyone, girls or boys, should be encourage to pursue their dreams, wherever they are. I see no reason girls cannot excel in stem. I also don't know one person who sets out actively to discourage hiring of ****qualified**** girls for stem positions.It is entirely possible and in my view likely that girls gravitated towards non-stem fields for their other priorities.Dreaming up superficial reasons (like fandom) to attract people who otherwise wouldn't have gotten into a field is 1) attracking the wrong people; and 2) ruining a life that otherwise could have flourished in some other fields.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 01:08:29 am
content: http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-scienceQuote

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 01:14:30 am
content: Quote from: helius on March 24, 2015, 01:08:29 amNice article, describes perfectly what I have always perceived. Well maybe I'm biased

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 01:18:50 am
content: QuoteHoly mother of God!I just realized that this applies to a shitload of stuff, including professor reviews and recommendations I often get from my peers. The bad professor will get lots of negative comments, the so-so professor usually has his class filled with people, even visitors from the bad guy, who don't know the third professor, who is better but only has a small class because of the schedule or whatever reason, so he gets less publicity.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 01:25:41 am
content: Quote from: ivan747 on March 24, 2015, 01:14:30 amI like the article too.I always thought of science as a field for those who are interested, otherwise be a lawyer or something.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 01:44:08 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on March 24, 2015, 12:46:45 amDumb... as usual...To quote Martin Luther King:A mind is a terrible thing to wasteRegarding science: the money is in applying science which is called engineering. Fortunately more people are needed to apply science than to do scientific research.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 02:04:38 am
content: Quote from: ivan747 on March 24, 2015, 01:14:30 amNailed that one, good article.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 10:01:45 am
content: QuoteWell reasoned, probably too politically incorrect for publication.The key here is to create equal opportunities for girls / boys to pursue their dreams, being it science, business or janitorial workers. Give them equal opportunities, let them choose and don't impose equal outcome on anyone.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 10:39:41 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 24, 2015, 10:20:47 amNot really, no. You point went right over my head. Care to elaborate?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 01:39:07 pm
content: QuoteGrow up.QuoteSpeak well for yourself.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 01:44:36 pm
content: If more women were interested in STEM, there'd be more women in STEM.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 02:22:49 pm
content: QuotePrecisely.A bunch of no-body sitting around thinking that they had the power to order how other people should live their lives.Couldn't have a more delusional group of people.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 05:55:29 pm
content: I'm a scientific researcher. I'm currently I grad student in Physical Chemistry. I do it because I'm interested in science. I want to discover something, I want to learn the nitty-gritty about how literally EVERYTHING works. THAT'S why I'm in science. Not because it'll land me a high paying job, but because I have this innate curiosity that I want to satisfy. I could have become a doctor, I scored well enough on the MCATs, but I decided it'd be too BORING. I realize that most research (including my own) is boring, but the knowledge I gain from learning these things enables me to understand pretty much anything. That's what I want, that's why I'm here.Anyway, I watched all of 2 minutes into that video to the point where she said "I was uncomfortable in a room full of 17 men." I think maybe that's the first thing that needs to be fixed. As a man, I am NOT uncomfortable in a room full of 17 women. Heck, I wouldn't even notice unless someone pointed it out. People are people to me. In my job, I don't judge you based on your race or sex, I judge you based on your work and how competent you are at it. And if you try to pull some sexist feminist bull crap on me you're going to be eating your words quite quickly. (I cannot STAND this generation's version of feminists. The online complainers, the "Men are evil" type of women.) I believe that men and woman SHOULD be equal in terms of how they're treated in a job (as well as most aspects of life. You can say a lot about sports and other things that should not ever be equal). This, by definition, makes me a "feminist". However, if you quote the "wage gap" in a conversation with me, it's going to make me angry. Do some unbiased research before trying to say things like that. Anyway, back on topic...The whole argument with woman in STEM is that girls aren't interested in it because from a child they're told to play with dolls instead of legos. Play house instead of taking apart the lawnmower. Anytime someone tries to say that it's what the girls WANTS to do it's because of the evil misogynistic society telling them to do that. Well, let's look at this from a few steps back. Little girls generally want to do what their mommies do, right? I'm speaking in generalities here. In today's society, the majority of stay at home parents are still women. Therefore by the "law of statistics", most little girls are going to want to play kitchen instead of taking apart the dirty lawnmower. Notice the "most" and the absence of the "all." This behavior is instilled in children before they can even talk. My sister's 18 month old was ALREADY playing with her kitchen set, trying to do what mommy does. She couldn't even talk yet! Children emulate their parents. That's a fact. If a girls grows up and decides that she wants to be in STEM, that's fine, great even. There should be NO MORE hurdles for her than there are for men. In all honesty, I don't think there are anymore. You should compare the number of scholarships/grants given out to women only in STEM vs. white men only (yeah, you won't find any for that one.) Yeah, funding is a large hurdle that's often easier for women to cross than it is for men. (Aside: My very feminist friend/ex girlfriend and I were talking the other day about women only grants. She is actually offended that they exist. She said that she "Didn't need help." She wants to be judged on equal footing as her male competitors. She didn't want to get a job just BECAUSE she was female. HOWEVER, she said that if being a woman helped her land a great job, then sure as hell she'd exploit it. To me, that seems hypocritical, but also opportunistic, so I can't blame her.)Sorry, rant over.I don't see the need for equal number of men and women in science(or any field). Turns out that men and women are often interested in different things. I honestly think body chemistry has a lot to do with that. I'm going to start arguing for equal number of men and women nurses(a typically female profession) in hospitals.EDIT: Let me be more clear. I don't know if anyone IS arguing for equal number of men and women in STEM, but that's an oft-quoted figure in these arguments. E.x. 85% of doctors are male (completely made up statistic.)

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 06:32:48 pm
content: QuoteBingo!The whole discussion came someone's desire to dictate others' lives. To them, we are not worthy if we don't live our lives the way they want us to live.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 08:41:42 pm
content: Quote from: corrado33 on March 24, 2015, 05:55:29 pmMaybe she should have had a male preseent her statistics, then perhaps people would have watched the whole report instead of "whargarbl feminism"ing out at 2 minutes.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 08:52:25 pm
content: It has nothing to do with feminism or even sexism. She felt uncomfortable among 17 male students.What do you think the society should do about that? Rolling out the red carpet whenever she attends classes? shutting down her male classmates? Making them disappear? Having different classes?To me, it is an issue of her inability or even refusal to grow up. It is always easier to blame others.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 10:33:17 pm
content: Quote from: sleemanj on March 24, 2015, 08:41:42 pmHonestly, you're right, I should have watched the rest of the video. Truthfully, I only saw the length of the video after she had said that, so it was a mix of "wow this is really long" and "I don't think this video is going to provide me with any unbiased or useful information."

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 10:40:37 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 24, 2015, 01:17:31 pmSorry, but no. It is someone's choice whether or not to socialise with another person. I was placed into a "special needs" class when I was younger. Other kids were forced to socialise with me because some psych thought that I would be no good at it myself. Well, to be honest, I think it really messed me up. I never got on with the "forced friendships", and as a result I find it harder to socialise with real friends. And it turned out the diagnosis was mostly crap.I think the same applies for the real world. You shouldn't force people into other's cliches even if it makes them feel excluded. The real world is not a padded bubble... nor should it be.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2015, 12:53:56 am
content: The underlying problem is that some societies push people in a certain direction based on gender. That has nothing to with being better or worse at something. I don't believe women are interested in doing household stuff and men are interested in fixing cars by default.I have worked with several excellent female software engineers (I have yet to encounter a female electronics engineer though; I have been on the lookout for over 2 decades). Anyway... AFAIK it is more common for women in Asia to enroll in computer science and in some schools a bit of coding is part of the standard educational program. Actually one of the best interns I coached was a young woman (she studied software engineering) from Indonesia.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2015, 04:48:38 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 25, 2015, 12:53:56 amNo one is INTERESTED in doing household stuff! Typically men are more interested in the... gosh, I don't know how to describe it. More interested in the hands on, nitty gritty, technical stuff. Again, generalities here. If you go out in a city and ask 100 men and 100 women if they'd enjoy working on a car, I bet you'd find that more men say yes than women. (Unless you VERY specifically pick your location.)The ARGUMENT is WHY men prefer that over women. This relates back to children emulating their parents. So unless you want to tell your 18 month old little daughter that she's not allowed to play with her kitchen toys, she's probably going going to end up doing things mommy does.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2015, 04:50:37 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 25, 2015, 08:54:05 amBecause I think that's what most people think is the goal? I mean, go ahead and read most articles concerning the "gender gap" in STEM. The first one I clicked on in google was from forbes, quoted that 27% of computer science bachelor degrees go to women. Honestly, that's a whole heck of a lot more than I thought it'd be. If 50% is not the goal... what is? 30%? 40%? When will people stop arguing for it? At what percentage will it be considered "equal" and the discrepancy chalked up to "differing interests?"They quoted "lack of female role models" in STEM fields. When the hell has anyone looked up at a scientist and said "I want to be that person?" Scientists generally aren't cool people. They may say "I want to DO what they do." I mean honestly, what modern role models do men have in STEM fields whose work doesn't already require basic understanding of that field to comprehend? This is a chicken or the egg problem. To be exposed to these people, you must ALREADY have a basic understanding of the field. To already HAVE the basic understanding of the field, you have to have the interest to get involved in that field. The problem lies with the interest, not barriers.I'll give you a friendly example. Through middle and high school I was in the "gifted" program. I think there were generally ~12 of us. 4 of us were guys, the rest were girls. I know for sure that 3 of those girls already have multiple kids (we're all mid 20s.) Two of those girls went into music (something they were also gifted in). So, look at the percentages. There were plenty of chances for those girls to do exactly what I'm doing, but many of them, by their own accord, chose a different path. Heck, I think maybe 2 or 3 of us actually ended up going into higher STEM fields. So, I ask again, if interest is what's driving this "gender gap" why the hell are we arguing about it? Why are we trying to change people's innate INTERESTS? Why is 28% a BAD number?Talking with my female friends in STEM, there are NO LONGER barriers for them. The barriers don't exist. If a girl is interested in STEM, there are no more barriers for her than there is for any white male out there. I obviously can't speak for different cultures/environments, but I'd say, in general, in at least America and the UK(the two places I'm familiar with the university system), this is the case.Men and women are NOT equal. Physiologically and psychologically we are different. Hell, even the chemicals running inside our bodies are different. If you're (impersonal you, not you specifically) going to argue with me that men and women ARE equal in every way, then I have quite a few pictures/textbooks to show you. With all of these differences, why are we arguing that men and women should have the same interests so that our "statistics" can look more balanced. (Yes, I have had "feminists" argue with me that men and women ARE equal in EVERY way, and that women can do EVERYTHING a man can just as well, hence the inclusion of the statement here.)

author: JackP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2015, 05:16:18 pm
content: I don't wish to stir anything up here but I think it is about exposure (similar to what someone said about kitchen sets and female stay-at-home parents). For example, at my secondary school, boys did football, rugby and athletics in PE. Girls did netball, hockey and athletics. Guess what, I knew people from both genders that were good at athletics. Obviously, the physical composition is different, but if someone is exposed to something at a young age, it becomes more about drive; one of my friends (a girl) beat all of the boys at cross country, just as one example. At the end of the day, there are other factors that influence your decisions (inherited, environmental variation) and I know girls that now play high level football and rugby, but for the most part it is about exposure. Similar things with more academic subjects, I was not only taught to read at a young age, but I was taught to love to read. This is the one simple reason why I was one of the best writers in our year. If I did not have that exposure, then I would not have been at that level.Moving on to the whole career thing, who cares if a room is full of mostly men or women? OK, maybe it might make the less confident of us a bit nervous, but that is down to societal pressure IMHO. They should not affect your learning, just as a member of your own gender shouldn't. There are no barriers to women, that are not there for men (one general reason is that it isn't 'cool' to like programming, so I spent my time 'watching TV' instead of playing PS3 when I was asked). That is the only thing that needs to change, STEM subjects should be taught to a fuller extent. I have attended many STEM events and they are much for interesting than a boring science 'experiment'. Again, exposure. If people 'try' STEM subjects, they might (or might not) like them, and pursue them as a hobby/career; same with other career paths, its not just STEM subjects.But do not say that girls are disadvantaged. They have the same opportunities as boys, and face the same adversity. Just my two pence (english) and criticism and disagreement is welcome, so long as it is presented in the right way.

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 25, 2015, 07:57:26 pm
content: Biology/mother nature itself is extremely sexist.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2015, 09:39:53 pm
content: QuoteAbsolutely true. Those "advocates" are essentially advocating for a sexist policy in favor of one sex at the expense of the other. Why? Let people win on merits and merits only.QuoteYeah. Women are definitely under-presented in prisons. So let's randomly jail them to avoid any disparity there too.Women are also likely to live longer than men. So let's randomly execute women to avoid any disparity there....the list goes on.Some people are just no happy with equal opportunity. If they cannot win on merits, they will win on skin color, gender, sex orientation or any other attributes of the moment.They are every bit as sexist / racist / bigots as those who discriminate on the basis of skin color, gender .....

author: Rupunzell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2015, 06:35:31 am
content: http://www.cnet.com/news/ellen-pao-trial-ends-on-plea-for-gender-equality-in-the-tech-industry/Despite Pao's stellar performance reviews, she received second class treatment. Friend who is the CFO at a significant American corporation said to me, "It is not a glass ceiling, the celling is plexiglass." Have been in the tech industry for decades, male folks have NO idea what it is like to be a woman working in a truly male dominated industry... And I'm not going to get into this now or later. What I will say, gender and age discrimination is absolutely a part and fixture of the Silly Valley tech world.Bernice

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2015, 06:45:22 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on March 24, 2015, 12:46:45 amThe 2016 elections season started here and Hilary is planning on playing the gender card. Get prepared for the an onslaught of gender related talking points from the left and the mainstream media.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2015, 09:10:28 am
content: QuoteI am sure she thought that way. But there is the other side of the story too.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2015, 09:26:53 am
content: Although I would have loved to see less anecdotal evidence and more statistics from a male perspective for comparison, the video deals with something real - in one of the examples, you can't help but think what the heck happened since 1985, where women's CS degrees decreased from 37 to 18%. Given that most popular video games in the 80's were tailored to boys, this could explain why girls were put off from computing - but it does not explain the whole STEM gap as the video title suggests. At a certain point I was lost in the fandom concept, but the most positive aspect I got from the Tumblr example is: if women engage in CS and bring a different perspective to web design, we will all benefit with the improvements on the crap websites we currently have (which evidences that men clearly suck at this)OTOH, the article linked by Phillip Greenspun starts very well and tries to explain the issue for the sciences field, but it became very so-so when it rambled on about some fertility crap and only provided anecdotal evidence from a young women's career perspectives in science. Again, the young men's perspective in science is not well described for comparison. Also, the salary analysis is very true, but it would put off anyone and thus is not gender specific.As for my own experience in engineering, my wife is an electronics engineer and she tells me all the time how difficult it is to have her opinions considered in both the university and in a work environment predominantly composed by men.At one time we both worked at the same company and I did not feel the same issues, thus one could consider differences of opinion (which obviously exists - we are different people) but also differences between how different genders behave and treat each other.This last point is interesting: over the years my wife carefully observed how her university colleagues and later coworkers (vast majority of men) dealt with differences in opinion: usually by confrontation and the eventual sudden increase in loudness. As a man I think this is normal (obviously under certain limits) and I can brush this off without a problem - for her, however, words have a more inflicting effect. This is also mentioned by the girl in the video, and it does not need to be wide open and confrontational - snarky comments and passive aggressiveness are differently perceived by different genders.Therefore in my experience this is one of the key gender differences that is unfavourable for women on the current male predominant engineering scenario.Another one that is mentioned on the video is less influential but still significant: being immersed in an environment where you are the only one with a specific feature (age, color of skin, gender, cultural background, etc.) feels strange, although one can be used to it.At last, I also disagree with the pie-in-the-sky magical percentage number.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2015, 10:35:34 am
content: QuoteWhat's the solution to that problem, though?Quotei went to Wellesley for a seminar on this. The picture was actually much more stark: computer science, when it started, had predominantly women students. As a matter of fact, most "computer programmers" then were women - crossed over from typists.What they found out was that men are far more interested in new ways of doing things and women however in new ways of applying those new things. So some schools are offering separate men / women computer science classes and to teach them differently.Now sure if it will make a sustained impact, however.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2015, 10:50:05 am
content: Quote from: corrado33 on March 24, 2015, 05:55:29 pmI agree. If I'm doing a collaborative project I'm more looking around the room to see who is the strong links in the chain(to cling to), and who's going to be someone that might need a bit of help(to help) - or even road block to getting things done(to avoid) -rather then gender. And I've worked on a lot of projects with big budget productions that the artist, the designer, and the producer come from all walk of life. Gay, straight, transgendered....The the statement of "I was uncomfortable in a room full of 17 men." I don't get. Personal safety?And as far as "fandoms" go - can someone explain that to me? I'm getting old. Oh...and GET OFF MY LAWN!

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2015, 04:13:52 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 26, 2015, 10:09:40 amI'm not trying to use the 50% as a magical number, I'm saying that ANY number is completely arbitrary. (At least I'm trying to say that.) How are we to judge when things are "equal?" By opinions of women, men? At what (completely arbitrary) number will feminists be happy? At what percentage will things be considered "solved?" Statistics are going to be used to judge the "extent" of this "problem" You cannot simply ignore the percentages because that's what the majority of the people will be looking at. (More importantly, that's what politicians will be looking at, and they're the ones who are going to make the laws to try to fix it...)My friend also told me of a lecturer that said something similar to her (a very long time ago). However that kind of crap wouldn't fly today. That professor would be kicked out so quick they wouldn't have a chance to say another word. (Or at least reprimanded/sued.) Sexism isn't tolerated as a university professor. However, it turns out that some old men are still somewhat sexist, hence why you hear these stories every once in a while. You cannot say that every girl (especially today) has experienced something similar.Very nice writeup by rsj by the way. What I get from that is this. Men and women perceive other people differently. Men don't have to act any differently around other men. We don't take things to heart and we don't think if our words will hurt someone else's ego. So here's the question. Do we teach women to be less sensitive, or do we teach men to be artificially nice (around women)? I don't think the whole "Men you must be nicer to your female colleagues" does anything good for equality in the workplace. If anything it's perpetuating more sexism. (Even if it was a blanket statement that said "People must start being nicer in the workplace" it still wouldn't work. Everyone would know WHY that statement was sent out and again, it'd just perpetuate more sexism.) You can't force people to be nice to other people. Yes, good manners dictate that you should be nice to everyone, but that's always what happens. In any job any person must learn to cope with what's thrown at them. Yes, men have predominantly dominated these fields. If women want to work here, then they're going have to deal with the antics of men." And that goes both ways by the way. Men working in women dominated fields also have to deal with the antics of women. And anyone working in a varied environment must deal with the antics of their coworkers, regardless of sex. "Men you must keep your ego in check because we're going to be hiring more women employees." Yeah, don't see that going over well, for either side of the argument.As for "being in a room full of people who are dislike you." I teach students, I do this weekly. I've very often in a room full of people who are not like me. To me, they're my peers, and I teach them to the best of my ability. Feeling odd in a room full of people dislike you most likely stems from some sort of insecurity. (In fact, I believe that's very close to the definition OF insecurity...) Believe in yourself, and this will never be a problem.I apologize if I seem a bit harsh this morning. I really need to stop typing these long winded responses.

author: ynfo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2015, 05:06:37 pm
content: That reminds me of a lecturer at Cambridge University a while back. Every time he arrived he'd look around, say "good morning gentlemen" and proceed with the lecture. That understandably pissed the girls off so they arranged that for one lecture all the boys would stay away and see what happened.So the lecturer arrived, looked around at a room full of girls, said "Oh, no one here", and walked out!

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2015, 05:16:03 pm
content: QuoteAgreed. The title of this thread ("Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?") pre-supposes that such a gender gap, however defined, needs to be fixed.I don't know it wise to talk about solutions before establishing that we have a problem.

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 26, 2015, 07:30:10 pm
content: Quote

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2015, 10:45:22 pm
content: QuoteMaybe the real reason women didn't want to go into tech is their unwillingness to work with asshats like you who are so emotionally disturbed that everyone refusing to buy his political BS is called nasty names?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2015, 11:06:49 pm
content: Quote from: ynfo on March 26, 2015, 05:06:37 pmDuring my BsC EE study there was one female student in my class but she had camouflaged herself to fit in with the boys. Some teachers defaulted to Mr X. when going through the list with students. We told her to keep quiet when addressed as Mr X. So when the teacher asked whether we had seen Mr X today we would say 'no' but told him there is a Miss X present because that is no way to treat a lady.For some teachers it took two sessions of 'training'.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2015, 04:18:30 pm
content: First off, there's no need for name calling and strawmen arguments. (Or should I say "strawwomen?")Quote from: mojo-chan on March 26, 2015, 10:21:53 pmYou're contradicting yourself here. If you're saying that the things that women complain about are "easily observable" then why are we basing our arguments on what the women are telling us, and not the "easily observable" things themselves?Secondly, we should look at WHAT women are complaining about. What are the barriers that women say exist? I want specifics, not "oh this guy was a jerk to me and makes me feel unwelcome..." I'm not trying to be mean here. We've established that some of the "barriers" are things that men don't notice, normal things that men do. So, please, tell me what the barriers are. Otherwise I will not know what they are. (This still came off harsh. I'm simply ignorant, I really DO want to know so I can better argue one side or the other.)I'll give one example that my friend brought up the other day. She said that, from a young age, women are subjected to the idea that "Hot women are cool, smart women are nerdy, and everyone wants to be cool." (Paraphrasing her words, not mine.) I mean, just look at TV, movies, and video games.My argument went something like this... "You can't use media as a teacher for young women. Media companies are going to put out media that makes them the MOST money. And, as it turns out, if they put a smoking hot woman in the movie, you can bet your ass that more guys will go see it..." (And, again to be even, the same goes for chick flicks. The Mr. Grey was quite a good looking guy.) And besides, men are subjected to similar ideas with sports. "Jocks are cool and nerds aren't." Although the effect is less severe for men. What are you going to do, tell media companies (some of the richest companies in the world) to make more "female friendly" movies? They'll laugh in your face. (Disney doesn't count.)Her other argument that I won't comment on was this. From a young age, men are given the option to 1: go out and make money to support your family or 2: go out and make money and be single. Where as for women it's different. I'll try to paraphrase her words as best I can. "Girls are told that you can do whatever you want, BUT you have to be aware that if you want to have a family that's going to take a lot of time, and you should take that into consideration." I THINK I've represented her words appropriately here.

author: Rupunzell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2015, 04:26:23 pm
content: Historically, women dominated computer programming and maintaining them. ENIAC was one of the examples from WW-II. And no, They were NOT crossed-over from typist, they were the ones who made those early computers work. What did happen was women were eventually "moved" out of the computing industry by men. Say or believe what one might desire or want to believe, except these historical facts remain.http://gender.stanford.edu/news/2011/researcher-reveals-how-“computer-geeks”-replaced-“computergirls”Women of ENIAC:http://www.witi.com/center/witimuseum/halloffame/298369/ENIAC-Programmers-Kathleen-McNulty,-Mauchly-Antonelli,-Jean-Jennings-Bartik,-Frances-Synder-Holber-Marlyn-Wescoff-Meltzer,-Frances-Bilas-Spence-and-Ruth-Lichterman-Teitelbaum/Here is a quoted story from one FAE who worked at hewlett packard during their golden years about how the guy's treated women engineers (John Minck):"I heard this first-hand story from Gail Sweeny, another SPD woman marketing engineer. Gail had also transferred to the European Marketing Center, after a distinguished period in SPD marketing and production. During one of her new product training tours for one of our SPD instruments, in Scotland, she was presenting her talk to a crowd of about 50 FEs. At one point, she hesitated, and a comment from the back of the room shocked her, "Not bad for a woman!" Mild laughter. She proceeded, and again, a little later, the same comment. It became a running joke, but she finished finally to applause.As soon as I heard the story, but several years later, I was furious. I immediately wrote the T&M Executive V.P. of the time, and encouraged him to find who was the senior HP official at that training session, give him a chance to defend himself, and then demote him. I felt that actions like a demotion were the only way to make a point, and once the word gets around of what happened, and HP's intolerance for such behavior, the sooner things would change. Everyone knew that European cultural values were not kind to women, especially technical ones. To my disappointment, that V.P. never took any action, and I regret now that I didn't take the matter up higher in management.I believe that later decades of HP found a more open atmosphere for women, although, in looking through the management ranks, even today, it is a disappointment to me. My observation has always been that I have seen what can happen when functional managers are given tough assignments. If an aggressive assignment was given, to add one woman manager per year, no excuses, believe me they would find a way to identify outstanding women, recruit and mentor them, and make them successful.I am sorry I never had more management authority, because I would have put in more goals on results, no excuses. And I don't think that men's rights or opportunities would have been violated. It is just true, even today, that the high-tech business, from venture capital to the most far-out scientific research, is the domain of men. I believe this is because young woman are not recruited into science and math courses, in high schools. I do also believe that there is still something genetic in men, which makes such technology life work more interesting and challenging. Not for all men, and surely not for all women, which is why identifying and mentoring and recruiting of women is so vital."http://www.hpmemoryproject.org/timeline/john_minck/inside_hp_03.htm#part_03_chapt_49* Actress Hedy Lamarr (born Hedwig Eva Maria Kiesler) invented spread spectrum technology.http://inventionconvention.com/americasinventor/dec97issue/section2.htmlThere is much more on the topic of women in electronics an tech. What is apparent even in this discussion, there are a few who already have their "ideas" on this topic and have made the choice to believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts and history. At the core, this is about primal-instinctive human behavior. Some might believe this is all good and fine, except more than a few of those primal-instinctive human behaviors and instincts are self-destructive for the future of humanity. The challenge is for humanity to mature and loose these self destructive primal-instinctive impulses and desires... which includes treating their opposite gender peers as equals. There are more than a few of my own gender related stories in tech that are purely gender discrimination. What has been noted and publicized is well known and very much real for women who work in tech.Discrimination at it's core is much about tribalism and being divisive for the benefits of a few or a selected group.BerniceQuote from: dannyf on March 26, 2015, 10:35:34 am

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2015, 05:27:07 pm
content: QuoteWhile I agree with much of what's said above. I disagree with this. If this person is saying that there is some "gene" which makes men more interested in STEM, why the heck are we making an honest attempt to "recruit more women?" THIS, if anything, is sexist. If women are interested, they will come, why force people into something for which they're not as interested in.Let me ask this question.In today's society, is it OK to ever admit that one sex is better at something than the other sex?Is it hard to believe that with all of the differences between men and women, that men will have some things that they are better at, and women will have some things that they are better at? (Hint: evolution plays a pretty large role in this answer.)

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2015, 07:55:01 pm
content: QuoteThey don't believe that each one of us is different. They essentially don't recognize areas where women are naturally more gifted than men.That, my friend, is sexist.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2015, 09:41:58 pm
content: QuoteWell, jury deliberated, mostly against her and particularly on the discrimination question.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2015, 11:53:50 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 26, 2015, 10:21:53 pmI know that in many cases there is obvious discrimination, because of comments, or rather put downs, directly relating to being a woman. I deplore those. Unfortunately making an objection evokes a typical aggressive male response (as witnessed in this comment thread).However, in many cases I think the discrimination is perceived, it's may not even be real. Frequently the things women complain about happen to men too. e.g. I'll bet there are millions of men who are well qualified and get passed over, or even pushed out. Even some men feel uncomfortable in a room of 17 other men. It's common experience among men that their suggestions are ignored, or get overridden by more assertive men who are trying to impress but actually know little (aka "bullshitters"). And there are plenty of men who complain about not getting a pay raise, who are just bad at their job but think they are well above average.Obviously in these cases men never ascribe the reason to discrimination, whereas women might assume it is.While we are talking anecdotes, I've heard several women who say their female manager is a complete bitch. As also men who work for female managers... So I am pretty sure if we replaced the entire senior management with women, you wouldn't suddenly get a nice friendly workplace, but a lot of discrimination by women - for whatever reason.

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 02:01:09 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on March 27, 2015, 11:53:50 pmhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1168182/Catfights-handbags-tears-toilets-When-producer-launched-women-TV-company-thought-shed-kissed-goodbye-conflict-.html

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 05:13:53 am
content: Don't know that I have descriptions of what the optimum gender balance is, or how to get there, but have three anecdotes which may give some insight.1. During the 1980s I taught junior level EE classes at a local university as a side job. Gender split was wide with perhaps 20-30% of the classes female. Many of the women were there for the rich fishing grounds for their MRS degree. Some would argue that that behavior had died by the 1980s, but I assure you that at least in my classes that was still going on. The ones that weren't were universally at the top of the class. So you had this weird distribution where the best students were always female, but most of the female students were average or worse.2. At the day job recruited those top women and others from other universities. Over time most of those were lost to engineering. Babies and families were the least important reason. Leading two reasons were appalling treatment by peers and in some cases supervisors (don't care to document here, but I think most men would quit if treated the same way), and rapid advancement up and out of engineering (these women were really talented and ambitious).3. Now I have grand-daughters in the before school years. Their engineer father and I are really motivated to get them interested in STEM type subjects as there are no grandsons, and that is what interests us. In spite of intense efforts on both of our parts neither girl shows much interest. They quickly understand things. Love building simple candle/steam motorboats and electric motors and so on, but as soon as the activity ends it is back to dress up and princesses and dolls and ponies and all of that. No questions or interest in doing more of the STEM stuff. Don't know whether it is genetic, or if it is the pervasive influence of television and being like mom, but the inclination is real.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 01:11:58 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on March 24, 2015, 12:46:45 amDespite all the encouragement for girls to become electronics engineers, the same appallingly low ratio of female to male electronics engineers exists now as there was 40 years ago. I have worked with probably a 1,000 engineers over the years and in that mix there were only 3 hands-on electronics engineers. Why did we never see women or teenage girls buy op amps and power transistors from the local surplus or electronics store to build their own amplifiers in the 1970's and 80's? The bra-burning feminist militia would like to blame men for the lack of women in electronics engineering but that is only a very poor excuse.I risk being imprisoned by the political correctness police here, but just maybe men's brains are better wired for electronics engineering. It is just a very politically incorrect theory, but it might be true.In any case, if I hire someone as an electronics engineer or technician I disregard race, sex, or religion. I am only interested in the three A's:1. Aptitude2. Attitude3. AbilityToday, our state government announced a requirement for 50% females to be on government boards and court positions, as a priority over ability. In my opinion, the job should go to whoever is the best candidate, irrespective of gender. Ironically, the state bans males from breast screening women.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 03:27:04 pm
content: QuoteYeah. Also, why should women have the monopoly on child birthing? Cannot the state mandate that 50% of the birth be done by men?

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 04:04:49 pm
content: Applies to everyone. That's all that's needed, rather than schemes and plans and buzzwords

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 08:17:25 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 28, 2015, 05:52:31 pmI don't agree with above statement. Fight/conflict of two men could be called dogfight/cockfight/etc. depending on local tradition. Also, some reference to Johnsons (ahem) could be made. All it shows, if anything, that this media channel likes flashy stories and reflects terminology used by society today.The reasons of gender disparity in specific areas arecomplicatedand cannot be summarised by saying that all this happens mostly because of women discrimination.Fixed percentage programs are discriminatory by definition. There can be specific programs directed to help girls get into some specific field with help of additional schooling etc by political will. But when it gets to fixed percentage rules or rules in schools that protect only girls, that is discrimination against boys using reasoning: "girls werediscriminated in the pastand have only XX% positions so boys will be pushed to the sidetodayto get 50-50%". Screw that!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 08:37:06 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 28, 2015, 05:13:53 amI agree with you that discrimination exists but I wouldn't be surprised if the lack of female interest in engineering is partly genetic. The same is probably true when it comes to the pay gap.Women and men are physically different due to genetics so why is it so wrong that they could be psychologically different too?Then there generalisations and exceptions, such as men are normally physically stronger and taller than women but there are plenty of examples of women who are taller or stronger than the majority of men.The problem is psychology is influenced by society, so proving whether such a gender difference is genetic or not, is much more complicated.It's probably true to say that men are more aggressive than women, which is why they dominate leadership positions.Women, due to their physiology, will always have a greater role in childcare, which will make career progression more difficult for them, regardless of how much society does to stop this. This isn't sexist. It's just the way the human species has evolved, whether we see it as fair or otherwise.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 08:38:08 pm
content: One explanation for the lack of women in certain high risk fields (combat, engineering, or anything leading edge -> with less understanding -> more potential for unknown risks) is biological. Females are far more important to the survivals of any species -> men are more expendable from that perspective.Evolution would dictate that over a long period of time, only such species that pursued such a strategy would survive to the point of challenging such a strategy.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 10:44:54 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on March 28, 2015, 08:38:08 pmLets not forget that being female also has its physical advantages, a better sense of smell and not being so muscular and physically smaller has an advantage: lower energy requirements and fat is more energy dense than protein so women are better adapted to survive famine than men are.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 11:59:52 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on March 28, 2015, 10:44:54 pmAround here women pay less for life insurance but nobody complains about. They also don't need to run as fast to win an Olympic medal and that's also OK. The grievance industry is very one sided.I say, treat people equally and let the chips fall as they may.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 01:12:21 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on March 28, 2015, 11:59:52 pmHere in the UK, women used to get cheaper car insurance because they generally make fewer claims than men do, until the EU stuck their nose in and ruled it as discrimination. The only people who benefited were the insurance companies who simply increased premiums for women to make them in-line with men.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 06:34:32 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 29, 2015, 05:59:21 pmNo I did not watch the entire video. I lost interest fairly quickly. Not only is it nearly an hour long but it's obviously biased. Perhaps one day I'll watch the whole thing.There is evidence to suggest genetics play a role. A classic example is great apes, even when in captivity show different interests in human toys, with females being more interested in dolls and males in trucks.http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/101220-chimpanzees-play-nature-nurture-science-animals-evolution/No doubt there is real discrimination but ignoring the possibility that some of this is genetic is foolish.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 11:28:10 pm
content: Ok. I've watched half the video.I took notes.Here are my comments, in order.She says she wants to get women more interested in, not better at STEM. I think the latter should be focused on.People berated me for saying these people are looking for 50%, saying that's not the true goal. Well, have YOU watched this video. She made multiple comments about some fields being close to parity. Sounds like her goal to me..."In 4th grade 6#% of girls are interested in SCIENCE. First off, she said "science" not "computer science," so I'm a bit confused. Secondly, you can make a 4th grader interested in ANYTHING, especially if you give an interesting talk right before..."Girls don't belong" Where is this coming from? Honestly, I want to know. Besides the sexist times of the 60s - 80s, who today is saying that girls don't belong?"In the 1950s, 30-50% of programmers were women because it was seen as women's work." So even WHEN programming was seen as women's work, it was STILL dominated by men.She talks about how men did really well in CS and women don't have role models. So, what you're saying is that men did really well (Jobs, Gates) and now women are afraid to work in those fields? If that were true, women wouldn't be in a lot of fields...More on Role models. She asked girls from tumblr if they could name a role model in STEM. Most of them named men (75% ish?). But out of those who named women, there were 15 different women named. There were only 30 different men named. I'd say that's a damn good percentage considering that 93% of nobel prize winners are men. (Simple example.) Turns out, the majority of famous people in STEM ARE FREAKING MEN.She keeps saying that we're "losing half the population of innovators" Where? Where are we losing them? I mean, even today after the CS "crash" there are still 28% of women in CS. So, she may want to revise her "half the population" number... And besides, that's a bullshit statistic.She asked the girls "what are things that deter you from STEM fields" Yet NOTHING they mentioned had ANYTHING to do with their SEX. Those SAME things are going to deter boys just as much. And what she DID site as was harmful to girls, it was down to their PERSONALITIES and LEARNING TECHNIQUES. "Girls learn better in groups." So much for the "girls are equal to boys" thing...Lastly, she asked a VERY vague question of "have you ever been dissuaded from doing anything in STEM. 51% of them said yes. No shit sherlock. Turns out geeks are made fun of in middle/high school. This goes for guys as well. This has NOTHING to do with sex. In fact, girls in STEM fields are revered by young boys...It was COOL for a girl to be in my computer science classes, but DORKY for me. Not just perceived cool by fellow CS people, but by the jocks as well. I would know, I was one.So there, I've watched half the video. I'll watch the other half in the future and make another list then. All I see right now are bullshit statistics based on a bullshit "survey" that she herself conducted on as little as ~400 girls. Turns out, you don't have to talk to a lot of people to have a survey that "represents" 1,000,000 people. Sorry, you'll have to do better to convince me. Am I being harsh, yes. However, people presenting on things where they only show ONE SIDE of the story piss me off. They get everyone else riled up to support their cause for the wrong reasons. It's BULLSHIT.Honestly, if you want to combat sexism in higher level fields. You should probably start attacking religions who still believe that women belong at home in the kitchen.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 11:35:23 pm
content: QuoteYou take it too seriously.The video isn't about motivating girls into STEM. It is about motivating people to fund a fight to get girls into STEM.QuoteAnd if you watch HR folks on recruiting missions. They drool literally when they see girls. Sex is a big advantage there.The same with minority candidates.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 11:44:51 pm
content: Quote from: corrado33 on March 29, 2015, 11:28:10 pmWhy can't women have male role models?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 12:06:16 am
content: QuoteBecause it totally defeats feminism,Look, if one can only identify with / by one's sex, that person is either (extremely) insecure, or a sexist.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 01:33:39 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 24, 2015, 01:44:08 am"MLK and myself are frequently subject to being misquoted on the internet." - Thomas Jefferson 1780Actually it was Arthur Fletcher who coined that phrase.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 09:51:18 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 30, 2015, 08:10:54 amAre you suggesting that apes emulate human role models because they are surrounded by gender bias? That would be... interesting. I'm not sure if you're serious or not.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 11:29:16 am
content: QuoteFor a one-sided talk by an advocate that cannot be verified, you would expect that.if you believe it 100%, well, there is a bridge for sale.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 11:54:46 am
content: This reeks of the stupid "Ban Bossy" campaign,van attempt to stop others calling girls "bossy" and supposedly affecting the numbers of girls who achieve leadership positions (CEO, management, etc.) But, if you really are put off simply by the word "bossy", or any similar such word (male or female - it's not important), are you truly fit for a leadership position?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 12:13:43 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 30, 2015, 10:11:25 amOne person's experience of being bullied because they're different, doesn't do anything to disprove the lack of female interest in STEM is partly down to genetics.People get bullied because they're different, for whatever reason. Some boys are interested in girls things and they get bullied because of it. The thing is getting upset because people say nasty things will only show them you're vulnerable and bullies love an easy target.Now she feels uncomfortable being the only women in a room full of men because of how she's been treated in the past. This will show in her body language and attitude towards men which will negatively affect working relationships. She will be vulnerable not because she's a woman but because she's anxious and defensive around men.There are female engineers where I work and they don't seem to get any problems from men. Some of them are pretty hot too but you can't even say that without being labelled as sexist. I shall have to ask them if they've been bullied before for being interested in engineering.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 12:16:18 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on March 30, 2015, 11:29:16 amMaybe I'll wait for the Thundef00t version.I remember overhearing a conversation between a male and female assembly line worker one time. Apparently he had asked her why she was working on an assembly line as you don't see as many women doing it. And the gist of the answer was she wanted to get a man's pay so she works a man's job.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 12:59:43 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 30, 2015, 08:10:54 amIf you actually read the National Geographic article linked to by Hero999, it makes it clear that the chimpanzees were observed in the wild playing with sticks, and had no contact with human culture. The captive monkeys were similarly raised outdoors by their parents and had not been socialized at all.The original 2002 experiment has been repeated several times, and in each case male and female monkeys showed pronounced gender-based preferences in the nature of the toys they chose. The significance of those preferences is another question.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 01:54:55 pm
content: Quotethere is an interesting article on Pao's case in Fortune today.It is always worth listening to both sides of a story to fully appreciate it.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 02:54:30 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 30, 2015, 10:01:39 amAgreed, but the way she talked about it made it seem like that was her goal. That's all.QuoteYes I would say CS is significantly different than other hard sciences. Obviously the statistics say so. And yes, I would say a hell of a lot happens between 4th grade and 8th grade for girls. It's called puberty. There are a LOT of things going on in a girls life during 8th grade especially. Are you honestly going to trust what a 4th grader says they want to do or are interested in? When I was in 4th grade I wanted to be a fireman or professional baseball player like Cal Ripken. ... You grow up, your priorities change, and you make better decisions. When is that factored into these statistics?QuoteSo this stigma that "girls don't belong" is created by girls, advocated against by girls, and is being attempted to be solved by... girls. This seems like an internal problem created by girls themselves emotionally, not something that needs to be solved socially.QuoteAgreed. However, statistical evidence is never "clear." You can make statistics say pretty much whatever you want if you ignore the right variables. What she hasn't looked at is what's happened between 85 and now. Have there been more opportunities for women elsewhere? (I'd say the answer to that question is yes.)QuoteThis is interesting but here's my problem. You can't artificially glorify people in any position if they haven't done anything to deserve it. Don't take this as me saying that women haven't done anything to get recognized. However, the majority of people at the top of the CS field are men, therefore the majority of people doing the really cool things are men. This is synonymous with a 98% white college having 1 white male, 1 asian female, and 1 black female and 1 black male on their advertisement cover. It's dishonest. You can't artificially create role models. The way it would be done would be to artificially put women in positions where they're going to get recognized, or preferentially recognize women in these fields, and that's sexist. It's a chicken or the egg problem. To have more female role models, one has to have more girls interested in those fields. For girls to be interested in those fields, there must be more female role models. Honestly, I think one way to solve this would be to have STEM magazines targeted at girls. Or have STEM articles in COSMO/other girly magazines. The chemistry of makeup or something similar. Sure, some may call that sexist, but if gets young girls interested in chemistry, doesn't that solve the problem? The boys already have lots of magazines with plenty of role models in them.QuoteThe statistic is bullshit because it ignores so many things. She says we're "losing" these women because we're not letting them into these fields, but that's NOT true. Currently, they are still CHOOSING not to be part of these fields. The reasons for that are what we're arguing about, but that fact is still true. And it's a bullshit statistic because if (I forget the actual number) 25% of women are already in CS (let's not forget about the 40+% in other STEM fields) then the number is actually far less than 25% of the population that we're "losing." 50% /= 25%. Again, it's a bullshit statistic meant to draw attention.QuoteI said this in my previous quick post, but I haven't gotten to the parts that you mentioned in your next post yet. I was talking about the slide at 14:11.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 03:38:27 pm
content: QuoteI think you will find it futile trying to reason with mojo - you have a far better chance to reason with a donkey.Something many of us have figured out. Save your energy on something more productive.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 03:47:20 pm
content: Let me respond to the quotes from the girls that she posted (and moho mentioned above.) I'll include timestamps this time.21:37 "Need to let the boys answer".I got this too in middle school/high school. I ALWAYS tried to answer and was told MULTIPLE time by my teachers in private that I need to let other people answer sometimes. How do we know she wasn't in a class full of boys and the teacher was just generalizing?22:20 "Hiding your intelligence if you want a boyfriend."While this sucks, in high school, boys are immature. The ones that can't handle you being smarter than them won't like you. While this sucks, young boys are immature, and what her guidance counselor told her was probably true. This is NOT true for all boys though. I dated girls smarter than me.23:16 "Bullied for not liking girly things."No shit. Boys would also be bullied for not liking "manly" things. While this IS a problem it IS NOT only a problem for young women. So if you're trying to present this dichotomy for how boys and girls are being treated, this quote is NOT helping your point.23:33 "Either ignored by the boys or overwhelmed while playing a game."Again, no shit. If you're not good at it, people are going to ignore you or make fun of you. Again, not JUST a problem for girls. Did the girl want to be babied and have the boys play easy with her until she got better? THAT'S sexist, and definitely not how online games work.23:43 "Was told by boys in engineering that I'm not attractive."What if that girl WASN'T attractive? I'm sorry, it's mean, but some people are NOT attractive. And besides, this is NOT true. If a girl is attractive, AND she's in STEM... it makes her even MORE attractive to someone like me, also in STEM. I know it's mean, but everyone has standards.24:12 "Was made fun of for liking nerdy things."Oh god. Nerds getting made fun of... the horror... Again, this happens to GUYS just as much. Do you know how much I was made fun of for being a nerd who played sports? I got it from both ends... Nerds get made fun of. If you can't deal with it, then you have a problem. In life you have to learn to deal with people who don't like you and who don't like what you do.24:14 "I've been talked down to for being a girl."Was she perceiving this, or was it actually true? We've already established that girls and boys perceive things differently. Was the person talking to her trying to be malicious or was it a boy who just didn't realize? If it's the ladder, then this quote means nothing.24:34 "Been told to try other things besides STEM."Like WHAT? Sports? This means NOTHING without context.24:48 "Told not to go into STEM even by parents"Maybe their parents knew it was extremely hard and saw their daughter was better at something else? Again, context. There's SO many different ways this could be taken. Again, this means nothing.24:55 "Made fun of in online games"You're made fun of in online games? The HORROR! EVERYONE is made fun of in online games. Boys are called girls, girls are called boys. It happens. Online games are a hostile place. Deal with it or don't play.25:15 "More gaming stuff."Gaming, again. Same as above. Also GAMING /= STEM.25:34 "Made fun of specifically for being a girl."What specifically? This statement is extremely general and again, means nothing without context.Yes, many of these are "what if " scenarios, but if you're going to post quotes, at least make them non ambiguous in their meaning.Yes, I ignored a few that actually were sexist. But the vast majority were not, or were ambiguous.What these quotes tell me is the boys are better at taking/ignoring criticism. This is an emotional problem, not a social one. And you know what, STEM fields are FULL of criticism (Peer reviewed papers anyone?). If you can't take it, you shouldn't be in STEM fields.If you baby women into these fields, what you end up with are women who feel entitled and can "do no wrong." They can't take criticism, they can't handle being told that they're wrong. This is not what science is about. If you can't handle someone telling you that "You're stupid for not seeing this." then you're going to have a hard time in STEM. How do I know this? I deal with multiple of these women every day in my lab, which is full of women, besides me.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 03:50:21 pm
content: One of the interesting things about Jessica McDonald's presentation was the way it revealed her own gender-based preferences. She and most of the girls she questioned were less interested in technology as an end in itself, and more as an enabling mechanism for interaction through social or artistic media.A revealing example was her slide showing how many girls on Tumblr have knowledge of programming. The "programming languages" in which the majority of girls indicated proficiency were HTML and CSS, which are not programming languages at all but markup languages - they are about presentation rather than function. She went on to emphasize that presentation was their motivation for learning.She specifically stated that women are more interested in aesthetics and appearance, and she was "not super interested" in "I built this thing out of vacuum tubes, I built a weather station", but preferred interactive art.All of which suggests that there is always likely to be some gender bias in technology (although not necessarily in science) career choice, because men are drawn to gadgets and machinery in a way which most women aren't. Women tend to want their gadgets to have a purpose, and while the female programmers I have met were just as capable as their male counterparts they were rarely as obsessive.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 04:01:08 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on March 30, 2015, 03:50:21 pmThat's a good point, regardless of gender, A 8 to 5 job attitude will only get you only that far professionally.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 04:04:50 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 30, 2015, 03:59:17 pmYou are making things up again.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 04:15:32 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 30, 2015, 04:03:56 pmAnd precisely where do I suggest either that presentation is unimportant or that women should be excluded from doing anything?You really need to remove that giant chip from your shoulder before jumping onto the keyboard.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 04:21:05 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 30, 2015, 04:05:37 pmLooks like you spend a lot of time in this technical forum. That's not a 8 to 5 attitude to technology.Obsession (aka passion, fire-in-the-belly) and after hours activities are excellent ways to learn and gain experience and and are often reflected in job performance.Quote from: mojo-chan on March 30, 2015, 04:05:37 pmThat's your choice, but if others are willing to put more effort don't complain if they get ahead.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 04:30:43 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 30, 2015, 03:59:17 pmHow did calling YOU a liar and fraud get translated into calling ALL WOMEN liars and frauds? Unless YOU think YOU are ALL WOMEN.That's would be a huge risk to humanity's survival,

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 04:32:47 pm
content: QuoteMaybe you should take on some of the female sensibility advises you so insist on giving to others: just because others have an approach to live that's different to yours doesn't make them idiots.In reality, the reverse is more likely true.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 04:35:29 pm
content: Guys. Moho is one of the few arguing the other side of the argument here.I would like not to scare them away because I, for one, am interested in what they have to say.Please cease with the name calling and insults, from both sides.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 05:01:01 pm
content: Quote from: corrado33 on March 30, 2015, 04:35:29 pmIs it not possible to contribute to this discussion without taking sides?

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 06:01:23 pm
content: I find this funny... if the barometer for the amount of attention you're receiving exists within a boolean state, maybe you're the problem.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 07:29:01 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 30, 2015, 07:16:01 pmUnfortunately, not everyone shares my point of view...

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 07:37:05 pm
content: QuoteSo it is our fault that you failed to understand us? It is also our fault that you failed to do well on your job or at home? It is our fault that you got a speeding ticket last week? ....What will it be YOUR fault that you didn't excel?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 07:43:42 pm
content: Quote from: corrado33 on March 30, 2015, 03:47:20 pmThank you for posting this.I did ask one of my female colleagues why she got into engineering and if she ever felt discriminated against. She started as an electrician's assistant working with lots of men on a building site where she did receive some sexist comments but she said "one just has to learn to stick up for themselves and deal with it". After that she went to college and from then onwards didn't feel as though she was discriminated against because she's female, most likely because if she ever did, she stood up for herself and stopped it before it started.I'll ask someone else tomorrow.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 07:48:00 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan link=topic=45029.msg640930#msg6I will complain, ...[/quote

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 07:58:49 pm
content: The series 'Mad Men' presents an interesting view on women entering in a typical men's world.I'm finding this topic an interesting subject because I'm all for creating a work atmosphere where everyone feels 'at home' and therefore can be asproductiveas they can. Appearantly that is still not something which comes naturally. IMHO people should not need to fight for acceptance or put up with bullying. Needing to 'put up with it' shouldn't be necessary.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 09:33:12 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 30, 2015, 07:58:49 pmEveryone has to put up with bullshit, there's equality in that...

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 09:51:27 pm
content: QuoteThey are asking to be free of humanity's shortcomings.The only way to achieve that is to be short of humanity.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 11:00:57 pm
content: QuoteBlahblahblah and more blahblahblah...But you still haven't answered the simple question:Quote

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 11:07:01 pm
content: I think there IS a problem, but so far really the only solutions proposed or talked about are "change the boys." I think THAT'S what I have a problem with. I think it's the girls who need to change if they want to feel more "accepted" in these fields. Like someone posted above, once they learn to stick up for themselves, then things are fine.If a man joins a typically female dominated field and acts like a typical man/jerk, he'll get run out of town by all of the girls. Therefore HE has to change. Why is it opposite when girls are trying to get back into these male dominated fields?I particularly have a problem with this video because of HOW it presents the evidence. It relies on bad statistics and misinformation/personal anecdotes. As a scientist, this type of informational is comical for how bad it is. That's why this video bothers me. It's ill-informed people preaching to even more ill-informed people about something that requires much more thorough thought.But hey, that's the internet for you. I mean hell, look at facebook. "Miracle eye drops can make you see in the dark." (Let's not mention if you get ANY sort of light on your eye you will probably have damaged eyesight for the rest of your life.)This is why I don't like some parts of the internet. It gives people a forum to present arguments unopposed, which is a great way to spread misinformation.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 11:21:04 pm
content: Quote from: Tallie on March 30, 2015, 09:33:12 pmWhy did you come up with bullshit?I'm writing about bullying... That is something completely different.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 12:21:02 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 30, 2015, 11:21:04 pmI don't know why I reply to threads like this... it's tantamount to debating religion. You aren't gonna change my mind, I'm not gonna change yours, and everyone walks away angry.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 12:49:31 am
content: NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.An optional additional explanation is:

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 01:12:21 am
content: The mad dogs are possibly the source of the problem.The abhorrent behavior I referenced in earlier anecdotes was apparently perpetrated by a very small percentage of the staff. It was done in secrecy, and in most cases no one was identified. Often the women involved did not care to confront it, they just left. It was discovered during exit interviews, or through other channels long after the fact. Even when a woman reported the behavior, we didn't have enough forensic skills to track down the responsible party. In rare cases I can identify a perp because the behavior stopped occurring when a particular individual left the job.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 01:20:51 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 30, 2015, 07:58:49 pmIt shouldn't be necessary, but unfortunately it often is, because, well, humans are humans, and some of then are not nice and/or are simply not capable of treating all people equally.And it's not just about gender, that's a drop in the bucket, you can get the same or worse discrimination/harassment/non-acceptance in engineering and almost any other industry etc for:- race- religion- height- sexuality- political bent- physical disability- mental disability- personal hygiene- whether you drink or smoke- choice of clothes- your hair style- what qualifications you have or don't have- where you got those qualifications- how tactful you are- how proactive you are or aren't- the way you talk- your accentand I could probably list dozens more if I thought about it.The hard core feminists seem to forget this, and think it's all just about gender

author: Rupunzell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 06:06:05 am
content: At the root of this discussion is much about gaining resources and status in the search for "happiness." Discrimination is about oppressing or assure dis-infrancising a lesser group to gain a bigger slice of the pie, nothing more, nothing less.Another commonly held belief is working harder alone will gain wealth, social status and all that. In reality many human societies simply do not work this way at all. Connections, relationships and who one might know or associate with, access to funding and economic-social entitlements has much to do with where any one particular individual or group might end up.*One can work as hard as they possibly could and never have the economic might as a banker-investor with trillions of dollars at their beckon-call. Simply put, this is why the wealth stays wealthy if they understand the dynamics of how to use and leverage their wealth.. and with wealth comes social status, political influence and power over others-society-culture.These are just a few realities of human nature, it is a product of human evolution, primal-instinctive drives that lives on tho this day.Motivated and capable technical folks go off to start companies where possible and not allow themselves to be under the thumb of banker-investor-bean counters, but are left to answer to market demands and expectations. Marketing has much to do with creating a brand identity brand image and selling appeal to get an audience to spend their $.In the ideal free market world, it would be gender blind and free of gender bias. In the current market reality, this simply is not true for a host of reasons.http://learningfromexperiencelarryhirschhorn.blogspot.com/2014/12/women-in-high-tech-disappointments-for.htmlBerniceQuote from: EEVblog on March 31, 2015, 01:20:51 am

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 07:28:44 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 30, 2015, 10:11:25 amThat one doesn't make sense, unless her parents were both male, which I have no problems with.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 08:55:53 am
content: Can Fem-Dom Fix Tech's "Gender Gap"?I could tell you, but this ball gag is going to make it sound all garbled.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 11:05:24 am
content: QuoteSpeculations on top of speculations.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 01:25:05 pm
content: Yet another thread were the busybodies tell others how they should live there lives. It's an obsession.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 01:47:25 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on March 31, 2015, 07:28:44 amI've seen some men who prefer men say some pretty horrible things about women. Stuff that most men wouldn't dare say.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 04:14:03 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 31, 2015, 08:48:26 amI think that there is a place for the deconstruction of masculinity, but it's not necessary everywhere. What is the harm in having masculine men and feminine women? There's no need to vilify masculinity. For one, I am attracted to feminine women. (Sounds very sexist, but in all honesty, I don't want to date a girl who doesn't enjoy being girly sometimes. I've dated both types of girls, both "tom-boys" and typical "girly girls." I enjoyed dating the girly girls more. That's just who I am.) That's one reason FOR different sexes. If you ask a bunch of women out there if they'd like to date a really feminine guy, (I'm talking REALLY feminine, not just "in touch with his feminine side.") I'm sure SOME of them would say yes, but many of them would say no. These opposite traits are what attract people TO the opposite sex. Why do we need to destroy (sorry, deconstruct) them? Do some guys need to keep their ego in check? Yes. Do some women need to keep their hyper-sensitivity in check? Yes. And THAT is the important part. It goes BOTH WAYS.It's OK for a guy to be non-masculine, but it should not be BAD for him TO BE masculine.QuoteAgreed, my phrasing was off. Let me try again. If a man in the situation above acts as he normally does around other men, he will probably not be liked by his female coworkers. He HAS to be more sensitive to their feelings. (Or come off AS a jerk. Not purposely acting like a jerk, but perceived as one.) Every guy (ok most guys) know this. In all honesty, this in itself IS sexist, as it stems from the 50s when men were told women are fragile creatures and we have to treat them accordingly. (But, as sexist as the original thought was... was it wrong?) Now, when a woman enters a typically male dominated field, how come she isn't expected to change the way she acts to fit in as well?Men are expected to be "softer" around women, why are women not expected to be "harder" around men?What bothers me is that the majority of the time, the women don't think that they are part of the problem at all. They can do no wrong. But that's not true. They ARE part of the problem (part, not all.) It's OBVIOUS that, in general, women are more emotional than men, and I think that's where part of the problem lies. If you're going to talk about deconstructing masculinity, then I think we need to take a step back and deconstruct the insecurities many women have. Sure, some may come from society, but others come from OTHER WOMEN. As mentioned before, much of the ill repute for females is held by other females. There's no space for insecurity at the top of STEM fields.This factors into evolution as well. Males have always been able to sense/see insecurities in other males or competitors since the dawn of higher thought. That's part of evolution, and it still holds true today. When a woman is insecure and a man knows it, he's either going to go into "Super helpful mode" (considered by women to be condescending), or go into "Super annoyed mode" (which then makes the woman feel even more insecure.) If the guy simply ignores the insecurity, then they're considered "not helpful at all." Have you noticed that it's not generally the very confident women that have these problems? I experience this every day. I'm either "condescending" (when I'm trying to help) or "a jerk" (when I just tell them that they're wrong.) Even my confident (ex) girlfriend tells me that the way I talk makes me come off as condescending, and I am in no way, shape, or form trying to be. I'm just simply TALKING. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, as she could never give me specifics, so I don't know how to fix it. This would come up at the weirdest times as well, very much out of the blue. Just to be clear, I'm not lying because I'm anonymous over the internet. I am telling you the 100% truth. I think this relates back to the hyper-emotional-response that many women have.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 04:35:03 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 24, 2015, 10:20:47 amAs long as there aren't unfair barriers to entry, then I don't see why it's a problem or why it needs to be fixed.Why do we need more male teachers for young kids?I think men and women are different in ways that will never be normalized... I think it is an inherent aspect of being male to be a provider and a majority of women I know (in their 20's and 30's) are more concerned with family. That's not a label I apply to them, it's what they say themselves. As such, in the wide world of careers and options in this world, there are some that men will gravitate towards and some that women will gravitate towards. And there's nothing wrong with that, nor does it need to be 'fixed'.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 05:05:14 pm
content: Quote from: Rupunzell on March 26, 2015, 06:35:31 amPao lost the case. And a lot of data came out that imply she is a bitter and insecure person, which may be why she didn't succeed in that company. I would submit that ignoring the facts that came out in the case and instead repeating her charges as true (despite them not holding up in court) is, ironically, evidence of gender bias.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 05:21:54 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 31, 2015, 05:05:14 pmRupunzell couldn't have picked a worse example... read up on this woman and her husband... they are not good people.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 06:21:36 pm
content: QuoteThe lesson learned is about incorporating all information for a complete assessment of anything.It is unwise to just listen to one side's case.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 06:30:31 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 31, 2015, 01:33:59 pmThey all say it until they manage to use the government power to enforce it.Live long and let live.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 06:39:58 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 31, 2015, 04:35:03 pmI can see where you're coming from. In fact I said pretty much the same thing a few pages ago. I think what a lot of people think is that if small children see an equal number of male/female teachers/doctors/scientists, they won't assign those jobs to a specific gender. While this could work. I think there are easier ways of achieving the same thing.I agree with you that there are inherent differences between men and women that should never be forcibly normalized.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 07:33:24 pm
content: Quote from: corrado33 on March 31, 2015, 06:39:58 pmWe agree.I think, as with so many things, it is a solution in search of a problem to justify it.As I've said before... the root of the problem in cases such as this is people wanting to legislate on what they "feel" rather than what is. This leads to erroneous thinking such as believing we can legislate away poverty or laziness or violent behavior, when human values and beliefs are much more complex things.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 07:55:40 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 31, 2015, 01:20:51 amExactly right. The problem is that for anyone who belongs to one of the often discriminated against groups, it is usually impossible to know if any particular instance of mistreatment is due to that issue or just because the person doing it is a dick.The ideal is equal opportunity *not* equal outcomes. There are innate differences. The problem comes when any group tries to point to this or that unequal outcome as *the* proof of discrimination.Equal opportunity is a goal that will never be fully achieved but that doesn't mean it is not something that is worth working towards.I agree that you can't legislate away human biases. But that does not mean that *some* legislation is not necessary at times to work towards more equal opportunity.Of course there will always be some (in the US) who wish the 19th Amendment to the Constitution or the Voting Rights Act of 1965 had never passed but fortunately these people are now in the minority. In fact many of those who vocally opposed these pieces of legislation later in life came to agree that they were necessary. Obviously they did not result in equal outcomes (not the goal) but it would be hard to argue that they did not help create more equal opportunity.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 08:32:54 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on March 31, 2015, 07:55:40 pmVery well said.And also one's right for personal sacristies that will enhance the opportunity of his children.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 09:04:40 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on March 31, 2015, 08:32:54 pmYou keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 09:41:31 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on March 31, 2015, 09:04:40 pmMy mobile swipe keyboard has its own will. Should be sacrifices.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 09:14:22 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 31, 2015, 04:35:03 pmIn the UK, girls do better at school than boys. There are plenty of theories about this. One is the lack of male teachers to act as role models so boys see learning as girly thing and don't bother.http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/aug/21/gcse-results-2014-biggest-gap-11-boys-and-girls-a-c-pass-rateIt also could be due to innate differences: girls mature earlier than boys or maybe they're more submissive and therefore are easier to discipline.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 11:50:27 am
content: We are quite obviously not talking about anyone's ability to run 100m.That's just a moronic reply, frankly.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 12:00:26 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 01, 2015, 09:44:21 amUnless you live in a vacuum you'll always have peer and society pressure in almost every aspect of your life you care to name.Trying to get rid of it is just playing whack-a-mole.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 12:32:35 pm
content: You have two sets of magazines in a doctor's surgery: In one pile, Women's gossip magazines about celebrities and royalty. In another pile, Electronics magazines like Elektor about circuit designs. I would wage a bet that at least 95% of the time, women choose to read the gossip magazines.Men are not to blame for the appalling lack of female electronics hardware engineers in Australia.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 02:05:36 pm
content: Recently in the news. The supporters of a local female politician prepared this list of sexist words that the media should avoid"polarizing," "calculating," "disingenuous," "insincere," "ambitious," "inevitable," "entitled," "over-confident," "secretive," "will do anything to win," "represents the past," and "out of touch."Quotehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/03/26/the-13-words-you-cant-write-about-hillary-clinton-anymore/

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 03:00:52 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 01, 2015, 02:05:36 pmPerhaps because they're all true and often said about many politicians?I know, perhaps the media should start using other words such as fascist and censorship?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 03:43:35 pm
content: As far as I'm concerned words such as bossy and calculating are not related to gender and mean the same thing regardless of whether they're referring to a man or woman.Words such as bitch and slut are more commonly associated with women and I can accept are sexist and should be avoided.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 03:52:49 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 01, 2015, 03:35:46 pmNo; it isn't. What world are you living in? What a farce...

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 03:56:54 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 01, 2015, 03:43:35 pmIs it sexist to call someone a dick? What all of this boils down to is that some folks need to put their big boy pants on... and get on with life. You want a career in STEM? Nobody's restraining you. Plenty of women have somehow found a way to make it happen. Don't expect anyone to hold your hand.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 04:06:39 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 01, 2015, 03:35:46 pmThat would be the "ban bossy" campaign, which is pushed by a lot more people than 'someone'.My aunt was bossy - her sister (my mother) complained about it constantly. Bossiness in a close relativeisa character flaw, although in her case understandable.Professionally she was a noted local leader, chairman of the district council for some years. (She refused to be addressed as 'chairwoman' or 'chairperson', because she felt that 'chairman' was a description of her office and no more sexist than 'human'. As for 'chair', she was of the opinion that she wasn't about to be sat on by anyone.)Her peers called her 'bossy' at their peril, but she would cheerfully admit to it from family.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 05:00:05 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 01, 2015, 03:35:46 pmAll politicians get attacked by the oposition. Mojo Chan, with all the respect, I know that you believe in what you are saying but sometimes it's so over the top that it comes as a troll. This is one more example.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 05:06:04 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 01, 2015, 03:43:35 pmBut they are just as valid as the male specific words. The whining is typically hypocritical and one sided.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 05:50:10 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 01, 2015, 03:43:35 pmBut only if you are a man, of course. Beyoncé, one of the supporters of the 'Ban Bossy' campaign, manages to use the word 'bitch' nine times on her eponymous album.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 06:27:19 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 01, 2015, 05:06:04 pmI agree, both are sexist.Quote from: rolycat on April 01, 2015, 05:50:10 pmI agree, like the numbers African American rappers who hate racism, yet use the word nigger lots in their music.Regarding beat the bossy: do we really want people who are offended so easily in leadership positions? To be a leader one has to rise above the bullshit insults and get on with the job.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 08:06:25 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on April 01, 2015, 12:32:35 pmI think most of the guys would toomen or women, I think it is still it is a small minority that would find electronics magazines interesting asan idle time waster at the doctors office

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 10:25:08 pm
content: QuoteIt is a lot easier to just blame the other gender.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 10:44:11 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 01, 2015, 06:50:12 pmThose people are idiots who are too easily offended.No one has a rightnotto be offended by anything.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 10:52:53 pm
content: Quote from: Tallie on April 01, 2015, 03:56:54 pmWomen gets called dickheads all the time in Australia, the term is basically gender neutral.QuoteSomehow? They simply do it the same way men do. It's not rocket science, and doesn't require someone to come and wave a magic anti-misogynist wand or pave your path in rose petals. Just do it.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 11:10:33 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 01, 2015, 03:35:46 pmBut still... what?I don't understand the seeming obsession to make everything equal?A woman called beautiful is a big compliment.. saying the same to a man is generally considered strange at best. Same with calling a woman handsome and vice versa. Men and women are inherently different, and there are different traits and characteristics that are associated with each.Most of the women I know *want* to be feminine, and don't want or need people "helping" them by "saving" them from double standards in what words mean and how they are used.Doting over that kind of bullshit takes the spotlight away from the real issues, like pay differences between men/women and sexual harassment that women may experience. It's ridiculous to the point of being condescending.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 11:16:01 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 01, 2015, 03:43:35 pmI don't get that either, or agree with it.I don't use words like that professionally, but personally I have and I am sure will again. Around here, asshole and dick tend to refer to men, bitch and slut to women. If I've ever used bitch or slut towards a man, it's either with the intent to emasculate (in the case of bitch) or as a compliment (calling a male friend a slut).This goes back to the inherent differences between men and women. Some seem to think we're going to wind up in a fantasy world where men and women are totally equal - hell, we can have co-ed showers and put women in the front lines in war. I don't think that will ever happen, nor should it... as a man, I will always step in and be protective of women, and as a man, I don't want my girlfriend showering in front of other guys (and she would be jealous if I was showing with a bunch of women - and I have no problem with her feeling so).As long as the differences exist between genders, there will always and irreversibly be words which imply one gender or another. Thinking we can - or should - stamp this out is an exercise in idiocy. Not referring to you or your post specifically, just to the topic in general.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 11:29:04 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 01, 2015, 11:10:33 pmThat is obvious. However, what this thread is about is respecting the opposite sex in situations when the differences between the genders don't matter.The 'work place' is such a situation.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 12:24:04 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 01, 2015, 11:29:04 pmWhich is why I said "Doting over that kind of bullshit takes the spotlight away from the real issues, like pay differences between men/women and sexual harassment that women may experience. It's ridiculous to the point of being condescending."Fretting over the gender-specific connotations of gender neutral words like "bossy" would be "doting over that kind of bullshit".There is a fantastic YouTube video by YouTuber "Maddox" entitled "Spider-Woman's Big Ass is a Big Deal" that almost perfectly sums up some of the complaints of this thread. All the folks white knighting should go watch it.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 01:06:41 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 02, 2015, 12:24:04 amGreat video by Maddox... but mojo has already expressed discontent with thunderf00t's content so it may fall on deaf ears.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 02:19:47 am
content: Was recently in the news. Global warming is also sexist.https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-concurrent-resolution/29

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 02:29:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 01, 2015, 10:44:11 pmTry telling that to those sons of neanderthals who murdered the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists.In actual fact we have a unique law in Australia that limits our free speech. Its called libel. If you have the money, you can sue anyone who publishes anything that adversely affects your reputation, even if it is true. In practice it rarely happens, because suing someone over the truth would do your own reputation more damage.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 04:51:49 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on April 02, 2015, 02:29:55 amNope, sorry, you cannot be sued for defamation for telling the demonstrable truth.EDIT: You cannot besuccessfullysuedAnyone can be sued atany timeforanything, doesn't mean the suit is the least bit valid.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 09:24:49 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 08:37:41 amOnce again you pick an issue, give it disproportional importance and require everybody else to change their life and adapt to your utopian vision.I can write a program that will generate posts like yours. All it take is a simple template with a few variables.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 10:46:54 am
content: Maybe guys should start reading romance novels, instead of comic booksBtw, plenty of girls like comic books, but I still have to find a guy that likes romance novels.Edit: unless they are in the romance novel business that is.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 10:52:52 am
content: QuoteCan fandoms fix romance novel's gender gap?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 10:54:38 am
content: Actually there are more girls graduating from universities than boys.Maybe it is time to lower the admission / grading standards for boys to even that out?Maybe it is time to randomly jail girls to make sure that the population there is 50/50?

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 11:19:31 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on April 02, 2015, 10:46:54 amI like romance novels, as did both of my parents. My dad adored Jeffery Farnol's books, and my mother is fond of Georgette Heyer. Both authors wrote mostly Regency romances, like latter-day Jane Austens, and I read them all as a kid.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 11:37:37 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 09:24:46 amSeriously? Comic books have SUPERheroes in them. Emphasis on "SUPER", they are a fantasy (just like a magazine supermodel.) Do you think Spiderman should be some ordinary guy, rather than a genetically altered self-confessed nerd? Then he wouldn't be friggin' Spiderman! He'd just be "man"!If we lived in your world Mojo, we'd be afraid of saying or doing anything, for fear of potentially insulting someone else. I'll need to ask for someone's preferred pronouns (rather than just their biological sex, god help me if I get that wrong), if they're emotionally triggered by any particular word or colour or have a distaste for certain subjects.As Mr. Rowan Atkinson said (paraphrased) "We have a right to insult and be insulted". I don't suppose you think Mr. Bean's actions are potentially insulting to people who are mute, or mentally deficient, or those who drive orange Minis?The real world ain't a padded room, nor should it be! I'm all for accomodating other's abilities and disabilities, and for promoting and supporting equal treatment on grounds of race, religion, sexual orientation, gender, etc. But, I think you have to draw the line at some point.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 12:28:15 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 11:48:13 amHis argument is about fictional superheroes, not real models.QuoteAnd again you are moving the goalposts.QuoteNormal looking until he is wearing the suit, which covers a foam latex set of heroic fake muscles - because superheroes are not supposed to be normal.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 12:36:53 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 08:37:41 amSo what's your point? Did you miss my huge list of things thatanyonecan get harassed/discriminated against for? Go stand in line.Sosomedickheads in the industry discriminate against females, wow, that's stunning news, who would have thought!I don't like it anymore than you do, and it doesn't mean people shouldn't speak up about it, they should, but it's usually a storm in tea cup IMO, and you only ever hear from the one who shout the loudest. I know countless women in the industry who never had such an issue, but do you ever hear from them?, no, the issue is usually blown out of proportion by some who take it as some personal lifelong crusade.I know a lot more people in the industry who have been discriminated against (and driven out of the industry) for other reasons than just being female.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 12:42:15 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 02, 2015, 09:24:49 am+1

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 12:47:25 pm
content: Wow, going after superheroes and fairly tales really says something. If you want to show real problems to broader society and be considered serious, choose a better strategy than pure propaganda.If one would take a closer look, almost all fairly-tales, fantasy stories, comic books, tales, old songs, folk art, etc. have similar (broadly speaking) themes and few story lines. Stories are tied to local traditions, history beliefs and represent general thinking/expression of art at the time. However, there are 2 main points - 1) many of these stories are pure fantasy (unreal) if taken at the face value and 2) no real person would willingly live in one of those stories if you think about it. Point 1) is pretty obvious. As for point 2) - let's just say that stories are simplified and not suitable for normal human being - blood is spilling free, superheroes are actually superlosers (they even have superpowers but still cannot do anything useful), many characters are too stupid/honest/strange, role of regular people is beyond miserable.Sure, some fairly tells have some hidden agenda or indoctrination. But it is up to a person to understand/learn/decode it.Now, to claim that fairly-tales/comic books/etc. are suppressing women and should be banned/modified to fit"perfect view"is to work for a propaganda agency which puts dirt on everything it sees as non fit for its agenda. Do we have to burn books again because you do not like some pictures? Where has the freedom of speech (art/expression/...) gone?Some say cover pictures put too much influence on young kinds/instil"wrong"expectations so it should be removed/banned. I would say it is not a bright idea because it is not that simple, society itself puts expectations/world view in our heads by many means. Also not everyone is the same, so forcing"right expectations/worldview"of a single"right"group to all others is simply not right.I may not like some newspapers/fairly-tales/books/comic books because of their style, pictures or story line. In fact, pick any work of art/newspaper/etc. - there almost surely will be someone who does not like it because of personal taste, political views, agenda or any other reason. However, I will defend media sources/book publishers from restriction/ban because otherwise we will completely loose all freedom of expression bit by bit.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 12:50:50 pm
content: Ah, I just remembered that MojoChan has been previously temporarily banned for getting carried away with discussions on misogyny here.Step wisely...

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 01:18:15 pm
content: Just remember women are not legally prohibited from getting these jobs. However in certain middle parts of the eastern world, women can be jailed or punished for doing completely normal things that most of us take for granted. I sometimes wish we would focus our attentions on the rights of those women who have none vs the ones who get upset over miniscule things.You'd be hard pressed to find even the most crazy (religious or otherwise) nutbag in Europe or the Americas that would assert that a woman was his property (I suppose illegal sex trafficking might be an exception)If I ever have a daughter, I'll surely expose her to as much computer and electronics technology as I have access to and I'm sure my wife (a school teacher ) will do the same with literature and girly things.

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 01:35:09 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 09:24:46 amQuote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 11:48:13 amYou imply that comic books and cover pictures are a problem and should be changed/modified. That is what I stated in other post.Do you agree with this point?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 01:35:48 pm
content: QuoteYou wanted us to live our lives the way you see fit.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 01:42:49 pm
content: Mojo-chan, I am sure your heart is in the right place, and it is certainly true that women are still routinely discriminated against in many walks of life. But most of us are already aware of the issues, and do not enjoy condescending lectures on our lack of understanding from a self-appointed defender of women's rights.Obsessing about minor or imagined infractions is frequently a mark of the more strident feminists, who often do more harm than good by providing ammunition for unrepentant male chauvinists.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 02:16:11 pm
content: QuoteYeah, just blame others for all of your problems.You are always right and others are always wrong. Problem solved,Don't worry about it, we expect nothing else of you.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 02:20:06 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 01:19:07 pmNo different to the way I'd suggest handling most of cases of harassment/discrimination etc like this, start with two basic steps:1) If you are a female who is being harassed, get right up in their face and tell them to piss off. Or ignore them, and/or just show them how much better you are than them, your choice, but preferably include the former, it works.2) If you see this happening to someone, do the former in #1And if you want, report it as well, especially in my country. All decent educational institutions and workplaces are going to have policies against this kind of stuff and most will take it very seriously.The thing that makes me real sad and kinda angry are those who throw in the towel and get out of the industry because they think they don't belong because there is some great misogynistic conspiracy against them.You don't change a damn thing by throwing in the towel and/or then going out on a crusade about how unfair the industry is and how you were forced to leave, and how it's why no women are in engineering blah, blah, blah.Just go out there and do it, in most western countries I am familiar with we now live in a society were women have essentially equal opportunity to men to get into STEM. Any claim to the contrary is essentiallyI've pointed out the HUGE list of things people can get harassed about, being female is just another one on the potential list, get over it.If I wanted to get into say nursing or child care, I know it's quite likely I'm might get harassed for it, discriminated against, not taken seriously, or *insert whatever here*.But I know I have equal opportunity to do that if I'm good enough and that's my passion, so what would I do in that case? I'd just go out and do it and tell anyone who gets in my way to piss off.Change is made by doing things, perseverance, and setting examples, not whinging about it and hope some magic fairy comes and makes the world into utopia for you.If there were laws or a massively ingrained culture of discrimination against women in society, then I'd be marching in the street to stop it. But there isn't, that war was won a long time ago, women have equal rights and opportunities, so these arguments that keep coming up are essentially just noise and outliers. Even in your country, you had a female Prime Minster. And even in the US, the odds on favorite for next top job is a female.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 02:33:04 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 02:12:45 pmWhere does it end? Comic books are a fantasy, which means the authors are given liberty to do things with their characters that are superb in many ways, perhaps making them sexy (to men, or women, or anyone, really!), strongly built, rich, intelligent, etc. Do you want to change this? You seem to think of it as a problem.As a society, we shouldn't try and put everyone on equal footing. It's unrealistic to expect anything close to equality. We should embrace our differences, celebrate and enjoy them, work with them not against them. Some people are better at other things. Consider everyone equally, but don't try to make them equal.Men, generally speaking, perform better in athletics. This is not the patriarchy putting women down by separating them into different categories, it's a biological fact. Women, generally speaking, tend to perform better in math and problem solving fields. I can't say why there are less women in STEM, I don't know. What I would say is that about 5% of the (technical/engineering) employees at the company I work in are women. I have never seen a single instance of discrimination, discussion in the kitchen about the "hot new engineer", etc. In fact, the (one) female EEng here is a woman, she's black, and has children and is very very good at her job!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 02:34:37 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 01:24:57 pmThat didn't stop you crying something about Anita Sarkessian in your emails to me about it

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 02:47:11 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 02:12:45 pmFair point, but whytheyshould"want to reconsider"it if it is not perceived as a real problem bythem? They can simply claim they do not respond to specific wishes (or complaints that somebody does not like this and that) of a single group.I agree that there may be some systematic biases with news reporting and TV shows/journals with regards to women, but also men, social status and many other things. However, I do not think that the issue (or perceived issue) is solely due to editors or men in the media, it has to do with media system and society overall. So simple solutions simply won't cut it as the root of problem (or supposed problem) systematic and engrained in society somewhat. And question ofwhyany of this must or should be changed still stands.I guess talking about the potential problems could help to identify and limit extent of such problems (ifthey exist). Try to make clearer, backed by evidence claims because weak or ambiguous one sided claims will be shoot down.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 03:18:08 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 09:24:46 amIt really does look like you are trolling.So comic books are bad and the fact that millions of people love them (both men and women, with close to a 50/50 split) doesn't matter, because psychologists know that they are *actually* bad for us, and we just don't realize it.And such thinking is what inevitably leads to tyrannical legislation or restrictions that "are for our own good", even if it's not what we want.Sorry, I didn't generate an unrealistic idea of life or society or body images or crime and punishment or physical prowess by reading comic books when I was growing up. Nor have I ever shot at someone or gone on any crime sprees despite enjoying playing GTA5 - etc, etc.It goes back to what I said before - doting over bullshit takes time and focus away from *real* issues, like pay disparities for equal qualifications, sexual harassment in the workplace, and so on.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 03:28:08 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 01:19:07 pmIf your standard is "something happens sometime somewhere, and it's frequency or severity is irrelevant, because it DID happen, therefore we need to devote time and effort to fixing it", then there are a whole lot of crusades you should be embarking on.Right now there is a broken childs toy next to my dumpster that someone left there. Oh the huge manatee! We need to raise awareness of illegal toy dumping near commercial dumpsters and do something about it. Won't someone think of the children!I paid my credit card bill this morning and there was a small charge I didn't recognize. Before I disputed with Amex, I did some investigation and found it was something I bought online and the charge was from some backend processing company with a name I didn't recognize. This caused me to almost possibly open a dispute, costing the vendor money and me frustration. We need to raise awareness of non-descriptive credit card billing names so that others don't suffer the same indignity as I.I had to send some out to refill our argon welding gas cylinder this morning, and he didn't know where the welding supply store was. I looked it up on Google maps but couldn't find it. Turns out they were bought out by another company and changed their name, and it does not have "welding" in the name. This caused me distress and wasted some of my time and my employee's time - costing me real money and reducing my productivity today. We need to raise awareness of companies with non-descriptive business names and hopefully enact legislation to put it to a stop, it will raise billions in increased productivity.And that was just in the first couple of hours today! Think of how many things we need to do to resolve all the problems we have in a week... we need to start a list

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 03:45:17 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 02, 2015, 03:18:08 pmRegarding the "pay gap"... it doesn't exist. From a Time article:Quotehttp://time.com/3222543/5-feminist-myths-that-will-not-die/

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 04:25:33 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 03:57:44 pmYou are in denial.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 04:49:36 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 02, 2015, 04:25:33 pmI don't fully agree with mojo's stance - but I don't think it is extreme nor do I think your stance is. They are just different sides of a very mainstream debate. Of course an EE forum is not going to be representative of the general population's view on this issue.There's a relatively small percentage of women in engineering - no one denies that.Taking the position that this isentirelydue to discrimination and unequal opportunity would be an extreme position.Likewise taking the position that it hadnothing to dowith any discrimination and that there is no difference in opportunity - it is all due to innate differences - would also be an extreme position.Taking the position thatthesolution is to legislate equality is an extreme position.Likewise taking the position that there isneverany role for legislation or any other effort to make opportunity more equal (gender based or otherwise) is also an extreme position.Not sure why - but these discussions always end up with some seeming to want to take it personally when others disagree with them (and no, I'm not saying I am never guilty of this.)

author: Noize
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 05:03:47 pm
content: I don't think this is progressing here is some light relief.https://youtu.be/TL_uiPbMTLU

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 05:15:53 pm
content: Quote from: Noize on April 02, 2015, 05:03:47 pmHa! - Bill Hicks is great - crappy quality video though...But my money's on George Carlin's...Pissing off the FeministsThe Male disease

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 05:30:45 pm
content: QuoteI have participated in hundreds of comp discussions and I can honestly say that I have never experienced lower pays for someone just for their gender.Many of the observed pay discrepancies between men and women can be easily explained.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 05:56:34 pm
content: It seems reasonable to not pay someone while they are raising a child, within reasonable maternity leave requirements. My employer would pay 90% normal pay for 6 weeks plus up to £140 per week thereafter for 33 weeks for a woman on maternity leave. But you need to take more than 39 weeks off in most cases, this will result in even lower average pay.The salary for all engineers within a given group (the mentioned female EEng is a "Senior" engineer, which is only one level below being a manager) is the same, but obviously if she decided to have a child, she wouldn't receive income after SML is paid. Hence, lower incomes. I don't see why this is unfair as it's not as if men can be treated the same :/

author: The Doc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 06:17:46 pm
content: I just watched the first couple of minutes of the video, and I've seen it all before. Typical feminazi, complaining that people don't give her enough attention. How much attention does she think she'd get if she was a fat ugly bloke?It seems it's always the fat, ugly, loud-mouthed feminazi types who are constantly accusing men of being misogynists, and blaming men for everything that's wrong in their lives, but what they're not understanding is that we don't dislike women, we just don't like fat, ugly loudmouthed feminazis, and the reason everything is wrong in their lives, is because they're fat, ugly loudmouthed feminazis, not because they're women.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 07:54:27 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 05:38:22 pmHow does it demonstrate that there is a wage gap?Is it because you feel that career choices such as childcare are underpaid and need to have equal pay as others such as engineering? If so, I hope you realise they this is not possible because it doesn't make economic sense.A big reason for the pay gap is the unavoidable fact that women have to invest more time in childcare than men do, which is due to innate differences and not something that can be legislated against.Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 03:55:17 pmThis is true and is why in some companies the human resources department deliberately hide such details from the managers doing the hiring.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 07:56:43 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 05:38:22 pm... Okay, you're right. There is a wage gap... just like there's a wage gap between my garbage man and Bill Gates...

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 08:21:02 pm
content: QuoteMojo is only able to recognize 1st order differences. The finer points (of controlling for other factors) can be difficult for mojo to comprehend.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 09:20:27 pm
content: Quote from: Tallie on April 02, 2015, 03:45:17 pmInteresting - thanks for posting this.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 09:29:53 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 04:14:56 pmAnd it seems like you are suggesting that, even if something is loved by millions, if a "more enlightened group" knows that what they love is actually bad for some of them, then that is a problem that needs handled (presumably, by that more enlightened group who are OK with being tyrannical towards the majority, because - after all - they know they are right).And that is what I can't get on board with. I don't believe seeing comic books give unrealistic opinions about what women look like, I think that sort of thing comes from the parents. I know lots of people who are/were into comics, video games, movies and TV shows and didn't mimic the behavior of them or develop warped ideas about things. But all the shitbirds I know in life pretty much had a bad example set by their parents.So it appears to me that there is no question you are going after the wrong boogeyman, and the right boogeyman isn't politically correct to go after (shitty parents), so people instead knowingly go after the wrong one for fear of offending people's sensibilities. And if anything, if often makes the problem worse by enabling those who are most responsible by telling them it's not their fault - it's <insert inanimate object>'s fault.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 09:34:35 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 02, 2015, 09:20:27 pmThat's not the best article... there are many. The idea that women earn 73 cents on the dollar has been debunked time and time again.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 09:39:03 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 09:21:08 pmAnd what's wrong with an investor asking "what happens if you get pregnant?"It's a perfectly legitimate question. The insinuation is that it's not a fair question, and that implies that an investor should be ready and willing to lose money on an investment because the woman's right to have a kid trumps his right to want to protect his investment.And that is *ridiculous*.I've invested in businesses and I've had investments - angel, venture capital and other. A fundamental part of the due diligence process is checking on the founders. In my case, that included having a life insurance policy that would pay out enough such that if I died, investors would be made whole. In the case of athletes, they are usually forbidden from risky activity like motorcycle riding, hang gliding, cycling, etc.And trying to legislate away this bias is exactly what causes problems. Are we going to have investment laws that say you have to invest in as many women as men? At the end of the day, you can't force an investor to invest in anything they don't want to. So if you make it illegal to ask a question like "what if you have a baby?", you make investors gun shy about investing in ANY woman who is of child bearing age - which actually makes things worse....but then the equality folks will just call for even more legislation to 'even things up' again, which will also have the opposite effect, until there is no investment at all.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2015, 10:31:29 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 09:21:08 pmBut it makes no economic sense for childcare to pay the same as other professions such as engineering, none at all. Childcare is only economically viable if someone earns more than the cost of employing someone else to look after their children. If the hourly rate for childcare were the same as someone's pay then it would make more sense for them to look after their own children and not work.QuoteAre you sure you're not confusing childcare with early education?It's best for the children if their parents do most the caring, rather than strangers.QuoteCall me traditional but the man who got her pregnant in the first place should be the one supporting her and the children, whether it be by working or looking after the children so she can work.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 12:32:07 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 02, 2015, 10:31:29 pmErr, no. Do you think that childcare providers have a 1:1 ratio with staff to children, or even 1:1 staff to client-family? No, not by a very long shot.So a child carer could easily be paid the same as their engineer clients, because there are 5 or 10 engineers contributing to that pay!

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 01:57:19 am
content: It's not only engineers that take their kids to child care, low wage workers do as well when both have to work or single parents to make ends meet.But yeah, staff to kids might not be 1:1 but the day care place will have overhead of employees that are not actually attending to the kids.On top of that what they charge depends on competition as well as operating costs plus other expenses.According to the very first link I found, so this is just for illustration, in the linked chart, mentions that for profit centers make only $18 per child per month.http://futureofchildren.org/publications/figures-tables/figure_show.xml?fid=590Not a lot to give raises to everyone.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 03:20:04 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 03:55:17 pmNo one ever has a truly equal opportunity, for countless reasons I have listed, and could probably list dozens more. Gender is just one of them, get over it, it's not that bad.Regardless of how perfect you try and make society you will always find some dick who doesn't like *insert issue here*, it's not going away, deal with it and get on with life, or let some dick ruin your life, your choice.QuoteThen they are ignorant of the real world and human nature, and my guess is odds-on to never succeed at anything. Likely just end up going from career to career bitching about how it's someone else's fault they can't succeed.QuoteI'm not that stupid, and wouldn't want to work for them anyway, I'll simply tell them to stick it and move onto the next opportunity thanks.Just like it is for any of the dozen plus things I have mentioned. Once again, gender is just one of them, get over it.On a broad level, there is no gender opportunity differences in most progressive countries, it's bullshit, you are being deluded into making a big deal out of a problem that is rather small.Quote*plonk*No more replies for you.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 08:27:48 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on April 03, 2015, 01:57:19 amThat's very true and why childcare makes economic sense at the moment, but increase the ratio of carers to children and their pay and the costs spiral, making it no longer economically viable.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 09:37:44 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 03, 2015, 08:51:32 amIt can and often does change how they think about work, though.A close friend of mine was very much a career woman, dedicated and passionate about her work. After having a baby she told us that she felt like someone had rewired her brain - she no longer had any interest in her former career and was totally committed to her child.It might not be fair to women, but that's biology, and employers are rightfully wary of it.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 12:22:18 pm
content: When you employ someone, you look at them as a whole. Not just their qualifications and past experience but whether they're committed and can physically do the job.Someone here mentioned obesity as a reason for discriminating against someone. Well were I work, I've been told that someone else applied for a job and wasn't given it because of they were too fat. Some may see this as unfair discrimination but it was sensible because the job requires some degree of fitness and working in confined spaces and their size would've make it very difficult. No doubt, had they been applying for an office based role they would've got it, if they had the right experience and qualifications.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 01:05:54 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 03, 2015, 12:07:10 pmMaking ludicrous suggestions and then concluding that they are unreasonable lacks cogency.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 01:10:02 pm
content: QuoteYou are the world's foremost expert arguing against yourself.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 02:35:57 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 02, 2015, 09:21:08 pmHere is a free tip for the next five years plan, to increase the birth rate of your fellow citizens you need to reduce their income.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 04:04:23 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 03, 2015, 08:51:32 amI don't really want to jump on the "against Mojo" train, but I just have this to say.You (informal) can't argue for 1 year maternity leave then argue that pregnancy is not an illness that prevents women from working for a year. (1 year seems to be a sort of gold standard held by countries like the UK. I believe that their maternity leave is 8 months full pay, then another 3 at reduced pay if they want it.) I don't know if you personally have argued for this, but most people on your side of the argument DO argue for long maternity (and paternity) leaves. EDIT: A bit of clarity here. I'm not saying that women on maternity leave AREN'T working. Some of them probably do bring work home and work FROM home, but they're not doing their job as intended, therefore they're not doing the job they were hired to do. And, on the other side of the coin, I'm sure there are women who don't bring an ounce of work home for however long their leave is.While it IS shitty that early 20s females are discriminated against because they MAY have a baby. Think about it from the employer's point of view.If an employer is hiring someone to take a high stress position, where they are needed on a daily basis, and there is a lot of training they must go through (like most jobs now-a-day), imagine how much that employer will be SOL if that person happens to be a woman who has a baby 6 months into the position? What is the employer to do then? They're going to lose money over it. Not only will they lose money because they have to pay the woman maternity leave, but they also have to pay someone else to replace her for the time being, then also lose money in lost productivity in training that new person.Asking any respectable business owner who cares about their bottom line to ignore that is... well... dumb. Big companies, sure, they can afford it, small business owners and non-multi-billion dollar companies? No, not really. In the end, everything is about money. I would guess that a woman having a baby costs their employing institution multi tens of thousands of dollars, depending on how much that woman makes. Asking a relatively small or struggling business to ignore this is, unfathomable.I realize that as a species, we have to have children. I'm not trying to be sexist. I'm trying to be a realist.Just to be clear, I fully support businesses (and even more importantly, countries) having maternity leave plans, but in the end, the money comes from SOMEWHERE.I think the best way to deal with discrimination against women having babies is to have a government funded maternity leave program. But even then, the employing institution still has to deal with someone who they didn't REALLY want to hire for however long the woman takes maternity leave for. So, make the woman responsible for making sure her replacement does the job up to par.Like a government funded maternity leave will ever get funded in the US.We can't even get people to pay for healthcare without complaining about the "low lives" who can't afford their own healthcare... (Just for the record, I, as a graduate student in Chemistry, am one of those "low lives.") And yet we wonder why the US is one of the most unhealthy affluent countries in the world.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 04:52:56 pm
content: Quote from: corrado33 on April 03, 2015, 04:04:23 pmQuoteThis post is likely to infuriate both mojo and zapta, which is generally a sign of a balanced argument

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 05:40:36 pm
content: Reading this thread is like watching someone in a bar (aka pub) trying to convince the patrons of the evils of alcohol. Even if he does have some salient points they're gonna get drowned out by the heckling from the drunks in the corner. The regular folks having a beer or two with their mates are unlikely to have much interest in what he has to say even if they did have that uncle who drank himself to death. And the owner of the bar is not gonna be happy with the preaching even if he is a responsible sort who knows when to stop serving and call a cab for the irresponsible drinkers.It's telling that the few female forum members have not chimed in on this thread. I suspect they're too smart for that.Still, Don Quixote would be proud...Hiccup - barkeep - another pint for me!

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 05:41:57 pm
content: Maternity is a problem for a society/country, not just for business units or persons, so it has to be considered systematically. Pregnancy/children in the short term brings only cost and no direct benefit, benefit is only long term. This cost has to be paid or co-paid by interested parties. Business works with short term goal in mind, so maternity is in a direct conflict with business interest. To stabilise this situation, some solution should be implemented of cost sharing.There are few general directions of cost sharing regarding maternity leave.Role of a man (husband/partner) as a supporter is increased (with higher wage position in a society) so that woman can not work and simply take of the children/home. Direct cost is on the husband/parents.There is maternity leave, but it is not compensated or compensated very little. Direct cost is on the parents or mother.There is maternity leave, it is compensated (at least partly) by employer. Direct cost is on the employer.There is maternity leave, it is compensated by state. Direct cost is on the state, indirect cost is on citizens.Solutions similar to 1) and 2) are not suited to situation we have today. US and Europe have solutions somewhere between 3) and 4). I would argue that solution 4) is better. However, even with 4) fully implemented potential mothers can still be discriminated (technical term) because of potential hassle of having to deal with temporary free position as others mentioned. That is simply how it is in a human society and economy.Also, termdiscriminationhas at least few meanings which is sometimes forgotten. To discriminate means to look at things differently based on their properties (as green vs red apples). On the other hand, it means to take advantage of some group by labelling it differently. It is impossible to run away from former meaning. In political sense, latter meaning can be confused/mixed (on purpose) with former meaning to gain some political goal.I think usage of termdiscriminationis the problem with some of the discussion here - some claim you have to be blind to pregnancy topic so not to be discriminatory. But that is not a real proposal to a solution. Business values time and pregnancy is issue of potential time cost so it has to be taken into account (or discriminated in technical sense) under 1-4) or any other construct for maternity leave.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 05:47:55 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on April 03, 2015, 05:40:36 pmThat is why I do not drink........Not fun to see somebody have first his foot, then the other, then the legs below the knee, then the leg above the knee then finally at the pelvis. The doctor then gave him a 6 month supply of morphine. All this and he did not stop drinking. And that smell.......

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 06:14:23 pm
content: Quote from: electr_peter on April 03, 2015, 05:41:57 pmYour post says what I was trying to say much more eloquently. Thank you. The problem with our agreed upon solution is that you'll never convince people in the US to pay for it. (I'm assuming that most other first world countries already have some sort of maternity leave deal worked out.)

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 07:03:38 pm
content: QuoteIt is that same kind of "idiocracy" that defended the UK, liberated France, pulverized the Nazis out of Europe, pounded the japanese into submission, and then invented the internet so that any monkey today can belittle that "idiocracy".Well, I would take that "idiocracy" over anything you have to offer.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 07:07:32 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on April 03, 2015, 05:40:36 pmRupunzell has made several contributions signed "Bernice", which is definitely a female name.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 07:17:46 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on April 03, 2015, 07:03:38 pmYou are conveniently forgetting that the USA did its damnedest to stay out of the war until the Japanese sank half your fleet, and the reason why the internet is accessible to "any monkey today" is the World Wide Web, which was invented by an Englishman.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 07:40:21 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on April 03, 2015, 07:07:32 pmYou're right. It would be interesting to hear Fran Blanche's (Frantone) perspective on this.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 08:02:59 pm
content: Quote from: electr_peter on April 03, 2015, 05:41:57 pmThanks for posting this.I think you'll find though that #1 is still somewhat the case, although not as much as it used to be. Some people see it as sexist but it's how the human race has survived for millennia. Either way, if the economy is healthy, then one person should be able to earn enough to allow their partner to look after the children, whether it be a man or woman.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 08:28:35 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on April 03, 2015, 07:17:46 pmAlso forgetting that it was an englishman (or polishman) who cracked the enigma machine, which essentially shortened the war by a few years.Not to mention that it was the Soviets who took the brunt of the nazi's aggression.The US tipped the scales. It was not the "savior of everyone." Without everyone's effort over there, the war would have turned out quite a bit differently.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 08:50:39 pm
content: Quote from: corrado33 on April 03, 2015, 08:28:35 pmCheers, corrado. Much better to avoid mixing the rampant sexism in this thread with rampant jingoism

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 10:37:12 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 03, 2015, 08:50:27 amUmm, it seems like exactly what you are suggesting - you're saying psychologists (one more enlightened group) know that the thing loved by millions (comics) are actually bad and that we need to do something about such things.Easy to say no, but the posts say otherwise.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 10:39:56 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 03, 2015, 08:51:32 amYou didn't answer the question. What is wrong with an investor asking such a question? Doesn't he/she have a right to know about potential issues that may seriously affect a proposed timeline or availability of a key employee? To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 10:49:26 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 03, 2015, 05:43:58 pmI like how you just make me responsible for the costs of maternity as "just the costs of doing business".There are many things which have been laid at the feet of business owners and it is increasing on a yearly basis. Higher taxes, health care costs (in the USA), dental care - and now you want to add maternity. What is the rationale for employers paying for maternity costs? "just the cost of doing business" is dismissive and adds nothing to the conversation. There is no reason it should be a cost for employers, none at all. And every time people toss more responsibilities and costs onto businesses, they make it even more expensive to do business in that country increasing offshoring, and they make it harder for small businesses to compete. That is a good thing? Rhetorical question - it is not.It seems to me that many people have the idea that businesses are universally fountains of money and any cost can be borne by them. And then many of those same people also wonder (or whine about) those same companies offshoring jobs or manufacturing to China.Hmmmm....

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 10:52:11 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 03, 2015, 05:43:58 pmAnd this is another *absolutely* false charge that the layman believes to be true and represents it as such. Except it is complete bullshit.There are very, very few legitimate corporations out there that would dare try to cheat the taxman. But in our modern society of class warfare and "blame the rich", the average uneducated and willfully ignorant citizen hears, believes and repeats charges like those above.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 10:54:13 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 03, 2015, 05:35:07 pmAhhh! There is the "more enlightened group who proposes to lord over the hapless idiots who don't know what is best for them".All protestations were a ruse... it was there all along.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2015, 11:25:54 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 03, 2015, 10:52:11 pmI guess that's true if you don't consider using tax loopholes and offshore tax havens "cheating"The Use of Offshore Tax Havensby Fortune 500 CompaniesQuote

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 08:56:42 am
content: This thread has gone from a simple debate about women in STEM fields to left-vs-right politics and class warfare.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 10:01:08 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 03, 2015, 10:49:26 pmIn Australia full time employees are entitled to taxpayer funded paid maturity or paternity leave:http://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/maternity-and-parental-leave/paid-parental-leaveThe employer has to legally give them time off, so it most certainly is a "cost of doing business" here in Oz, because getting someone else to fill in for them invariably costs a business time and money.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 10:01:47 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 04, 2015, 08:56:42 amThere is no such thing!

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 01:10:49 pm
content: Offtopic hell!The main issue are the negative role models, too much fashion and looks oriented. You cannot compete with that massive capitalistic marketing.There were cultures with genre equality, there were warrior women.Womanize technology by putting pink and cute stuff is retarded, that separates the genre cultures even more.Speaking as an heterosexual male, I would love to have female teachers and classmates. It's not about getting horny, but looking some pretty faces (for me every female dace is prettier than a male one) and less testosterone environments makes me feel more relaxed.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 05:17:02 pm
content: Anita is the face of everything wrong with modern day feminism.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 05:35:08 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 04, 2015, 04:47:41 pmIt didn't stop Jeri Ellsworth. Enough whining.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 06:03:07 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 04, 2015, 05:35:08 pmFalse logic. You can do better than that.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 06:47:48 pm
content: In recent elections here, one of the candidtes outlines his vision how the government should take care of women from cradle to grave.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 06:48:33 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on April 04, 2015, 06:03:07 pmOk, keep whining then. ;-)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 07:02:26 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 04, 2015, 06:10:08 pmShe has a point there but the most important thing is how Lego have shifted focus from imagination towards combat. Not only have they started gender specific marketing but they've dumbed down Lego.Lego is not unique, other toys such as Meccano have suffered the same fate.I think in the end products such as Arduinio will fill the void left by Lego.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 07:22:59 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 04, 2015, 07:02:26 pmWhose to say you can't have imaginative combat!(see pic below - my boys lego table this morning)QuoteI don't think so. Lego's have non tech, easily accessible aspects that have a much wider appeal. The whole "Lego Mindstorms" branch could (and should IMO) be replaced by something like Arduino though. But Lego is big business with large-scale marketing and antithetical to anything remotely open source.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 08:08:05 pm
content: Quote from: corrado33 on March 31, 2015, 04:14:03 pmDamn, someone else who gets this too! My ex used to tell me this all the time. My mom as well. Thinking back, I've only ever had females tell me I'm condescending when trying to explain something, despite it not being my attention at all.Huh. This makes a whole lot more sense now.Sent from my Smartphone

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 09:07:47 pm
content: QuotePeople begin to question your credibility when you say that.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 11:04:25 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 04, 2015, 06:10:08 pmI'd link some thunderf00t videos in rebuttal to your Sarkeesian videos but you wouldn't watch them... I don't get what all the hate's about.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 11:04:37 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 04, 2015, 11:39:46 amYour posts are full of arrogance on topics I don't think you really know nearly as much about as you feel you do.-An investor who would ask a woman about pregnancy is an idiot (you know more about investing than an investor)-Comic book sellers are missing the boat by not following your way of doing things and broadening appeal (you know what's best for the comic industry)-Businesses are being short sighted by not wanting to pay for maternity (you know what's best for businesses)-Companies who follow the law are actually evading taxes (you know more than the company's tax attorneys or the gov't prosecutors who would charge them)..and on and on. You say you're not trying to force people to do things, but you are... in this very thread you're pushing and arguing for various things which will effect your goals. Are we to believe that you don't vote in line with your beliefs? I am pretty sure you do. I just have a problem with this type of attitude.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 11:19:58 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 04, 2015, 11:48:19 amYou protest every time someone else puts words in your mouth, but you do that to the exteme to others.Who said the investor wanted an abortion contract? Or a contract to avoid children? That was never said. You created that false argument and then argued against it.I am assuming you have ever been a founder in a venture funded firm. Questioning things like this is a fundamental part of due diligence. And the ability of a person to perform the job is a fundamental part of any election - old people running for office in the USA always have to defend against concerns they could get ill or die or otherwise be unable to perform the job.Myself and some of my employees were exact exactly these types of questions a few weeks ago during a meeting with some venture capitalists... but the guy asking was just the head of the investment banking division of Goldman Sachs, so he's just some idiot who doesn't know a thing about investing.

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 11:23:23 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 04, 2015, 11:19:58 pmJust ignore mojo-chan, I found thats been the best policy for preventing wasted keystrokes on the forum for me.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 11:30:57 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 04, 2015, 10:01:08 amWe don't disagree.I was responding to mojo's (perceived on my part if he didn't say it outright) belief that employers should be paying for maternity leave. A previous poster stated that childbirth isn't exactly optional on a macro scale, but that it offers no short term benefit to business, which necessarily operate on short-term outlooks, and as such the cost should be borne by society. I agree with his view - I appreciate the necessity of childbirth but as an employer, I don't think I should be required to pay an employee for 2 or 3 months without them working simply because they had a kid.There are always, as you mentioned, other costs which are more difficult to quantify - like the cost of training a new worker and more. I actually don't have a problem with those costs because anyone can quit at any time (and I like the ongoing at-will nature of employment in the USA)... but mandating 2 months pay is onerous for businesses.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2015, 12:07:46 am
content: Quote from: Tallie on April 04, 2015, 11:04:25 pmI had never heard of Anita Sarkeesian until now, being neither American nor much of a gamer these days, so I poked around looking for impartial information. Ye gods, what a mess.I finally found a YouTubefrom a gamer who seemed intelligent (Master's degree in science) and well informed. This person found that despite a reasonable hypothesis Sarkeesian's approach was:BiasedDisingenuousUsed bizarre argumentsDrew conclusions from casual observationsFailed to follow up her opinions with credible research and evidenceIn other words, totally unscientific despite pretentions to the contrary.Sarkeesian also seems to be a professional victim to such a degree that even mild criticism has to be bracketed by ten minutes of disavowal of any form of sexism or personal animosity towards her. Even if that criticism is made by a female, strongly feminist, black child of poor immigrants who in a rational world would be fairly immune to such accusations.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2015, 01:13:10 am
content: Quote from: rolycat on April 05, 2015, 12:07:46 amI wasn't joking when I said she's the face of everything wrong with modern-day feminism... she's extremely disingenuous, a professional pot stirrer.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2015, 01:15:43 am
content: Quote from: Tallie on April 05, 2015, 01:13:10 amComplete with pink jacket and lipstick

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2015, 07:04:22 pm
content: QuoteSo the problem is with the law. Then blame the people who wrote the law, not the people who followed the law.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 05, 2015, 07:11:42 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 05, 2015, 03:09:08 pmWhy are you saying that 'the' law (which law?) "was never intended to be abused like that"?Would you also say that companies and wealthy people which pour money into lobbying government representatives are just mindlessly wasting their money?

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2015, 07:59:29 pm
content: This thread has run its course... it's going nowhere.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2015, 08:21:53 pm
content: Quote from: Tallie on April 05, 2015, 07:59:29 pmIt's passed on. This thread is no more. It has ceased to be. It's expired and gone to meet its maker.It's a stiff. Bereft of life, it rests in peace. It's kicked the bucket, shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible.THIS IS AN EX-THREAD....Well, it should be. It's more of a zombie thread at the moment, lurching pointlessly from one exhausted argument to the nextStill, somehow we can't seem to keep our paws off the keyboard, can we?

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 05, 2015, 08:23:15 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 05, 2015, 08:14:46 pmFair enough...

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2015, 10:33:54 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 05, 2015, 03:09:08 pmYes, please repeat, we are eager to hear more.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 12:19:36 pm
content: Quote from: Tallie on April 04, 2015, 05:17:02 pmI think Tammy Bruce is a much better choice. Former member of the board of directors at the national organization for women, who is now concerned about what has come from the movement.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 12:39:44 pm
content: The thing which annoys me about some feminists is they seem to want it both ways. They want a society where women have equal pay to men, are independent and do the same jobs as men do, yet when they're on a date with a man, guess who they want to foot the bill? The man! What the hell? No, if you want equal pay and to do the same jobs as men do, then don't expect your boyfriend to spend and more money on you, than you spend on him.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 12:52:56 pm
content: Quote from: Tallie on April 04, 2015, 05:17:02 pmThere should be a term like Godwin's law (that forum rants always end up mentioning Hitler or Nazi's) that any thread mentioning women will eventually end with someone posting an Anita Sarkessian video, at which point the thread has jumped the shark and should be shot. MojoChan is the "winner"

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 03:12:47 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on April 06, 2015, 12:19:36 pmThat's a very good video, thanks. On TV she is presented as a talk radio host and I was not aware of her background.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 05:32:35 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 06, 2015, 05:15:07 pmNope, he didn't. Once again the point is found soaring past slightly above your head.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 05:39:58 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 06, 2015, 05:15:07 pmShe's not a nazi, but it can be qualified as "feminazi". She's as bad for the feminist movement like Femen, making it brainlessy radical and lacking proper focus. She's a parasite and not a true builder.I'm not against radical movements, many great things can get out of it. Free/Open Source Hardware & Software and Personal Computing born from radical movements of MIT and Berkeley, BBSs were an anarchist-like movement. Things got a lot boring in technology until recently, today's people are getting more creative again.It's a shame people like her has too many media attention, but I'm really sure that's what anti-progressive people wants to happen.If you want to change view of woman on society, do things to change it. Make women to do high quality content that shows other role models, organize organizations to help teach women in collaboration with others, motivate women to look and other stuf that usually not fits as being done by women. Organize a cultural revolution, not ranting like being mad.I believe genre equality is good for everyone isn't an high class bastard. But maybe we should look at all differences between humans and not just genres, that are a spectrum and not just two!Why feminism word is positive and masculism is negative? That logic doesn't compute! I dislike both terms.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 08:53:27 pm
content: I think people are just trying to solve a problem before understanding its root cause: we don't know why there is a gender gap, and we don't know why it needs to be narrowed.Unless fandom is the cause of that gender gap, I don't know why someone thinks it is a sustainable solution.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 08:58:11 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 06, 2015, 05:15:07 pmIs this a joke? Are you joking? Dave, please do us all a favor and lock this thread...

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 09:30:08 pm
content: The winner is the one that posts the last message before the lock (admins excluded)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 06:39:45 am
content: No, don't lock this thread! I'm still waiting for the answer to why there are so few female electronics engineers.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 07:04:50 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 07, 2015, 06:39:45 amEasy, because all the electronic hobby toys, robots, RC cars, game consoles, etc are in the boys section and the parents buy them gender biased. So in the classroom the boys already have a head start.Haven't you watched the video?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 07:27:15 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on April 07, 2015, 07:04:50 amWelcome to the era of I-am-a-victim-and-its-always-somebody-else's-fault.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 07:31:09 am
content: Why do silly people post comments complaining about the thread being dead, yet by posting they're keeping it going?Quote from: miguelvp on April 07, 2015, 07:04:50 amThat's one theory but it doesn't explain why girls still do better than boys in the classroom.Until recently, even in subjects such as maths girls have still outperformed boys but the gap in that subject has closed:http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/aug/21/gcse-results-2014-biggest-gap-11-boys-and-girls-a-c-pass-rate

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 07:43:28 am
content: I'm just stating a valid point she made and answered a question.But fine, call me a silly person that will help

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 07:50:57 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 07, 2015, 07:31:09 amAt the risk of starting a different debate, maybe the reason for that is multitasking. It's said that girls are inherently better at it.So girls would be better at listening to the teacher while also thinking about what they're going to do after school.Where as boys would tend to tune-out when thinking about that stuff

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 08:01:00 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on April 07, 2015, 07:43:28 amI don't recall you making any silly comments so no, that remark wasn't aimed at you.Quote from: Psi on April 07, 2015, 07:50:57 amThat's one possibility but a masculinist would say boys are being discriminated against because teaching methods are clearly geared towards girls.Perhaps girls mature earlier, are generally better at being well behaved and are more submissive so are more likely to do as they're told?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 09:30:04 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 07, 2015, 08:40:51 amThere's no concrete evidence it's cultural. The truth is, no one knows why girls do better at school.This article suggest that the pattern of girls doing better at school is repeated around the world, even in cultures where girls are actively discouraged from education.Quotehttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/11364130/Girls-do-better-than-boys-at-school-despite-inequality.htmlInterestingly it seems to suggest that the UK and US are more equal but our GCSE results suggest otherwise.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 11:16:53 am
content: QuoteHas anyone thought about closing that gender gap too?Maybe girls should be randomly pulled from class rooms? Or their scores automatically subtracted, ...,all to be fair for the boys,

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 12:16:14 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on April 07, 2015, 07:04:50 amBuzzz. That doesn't add up. About 20 years ago when getting my Bachalors degree we where asked which one of us did something with electronics as a hobby. Only 2 out of 30 raised their hands. Even back then women with no previous engagement in electronics would not lag behind compared to the majority of my class mates.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 12:38:01 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 07, 2015, 08:40:51 amThose are innate differences, rather than cultural.QuoteAdvertising aimed at girls doesn't encourage education either: Barbie isn't any more conducive to learning than action man.Quote from: dannyf on April 07, 2015, 11:16:53 amYes, there is discussion about closing the gender gap. Here in the UK it's widely blamed on the lack of female teachers at junior school but there's little evidence to support that, especially when I doubt there are many female teachers in g Qatar, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 12:44:06 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 07, 2015, 06:39:45 amBecause society has spent all of the industrial/technological age raising kids with boys having "boys toys" and girls having "girls toys". And not too dissimilar at school where boys did shop and built stuff and girls did home studies or whatever. We are talking dozens of generations of conditioning of this seperation. Only very recently in the scheme of things has this changed, basically within our current generation.So you end up with a society with a culture that naturally follows that formula, and there are few who want to "break the mould" and do something that is seen as uncool among their friends or whatever. Throw in the critical mass psychological aspect (how many girls would want to do engineering if only a percent or two do it) and you get a difficult hurdle to overcome.Change can take time, and we are not even into one generation (25 years) since pretty much society has more or less tried to move away from those stereotypes.So it's not surprising to me at all that there still aren't that many women in engineering.It will take another generation IMO.And all this is assuming that girls are innately as drawn toward engineering as boys given the same opportunity and encouragement. Whatever that actually means in practice and if it's a real thing or not. I don't think anyone has any real clue.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 01:14:15 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 07, 2015, 08:01:00 amThere's well founded theories about tjat, because in most societies tje majority of teachers are female.In tech environments, most teachers are male. They react in a lecherous way when a woman enter in a classroom, it hapoens in my class. Despite they can be not attractive.That's maybe because males are sexually underdeveloped compared to females and the masculinist environment makes it to happen.Are there any female that's into electronics field here? Please, I would be interested in your opinion. Teachers, engineers or students would be very interesting to know their opinion.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 05:05:53 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 07, 2015, 12:16:14 pmApparently as she states, it started with the generation that had ZX Spectrums, Comodore 64s and the like and it got worse progressively in the last 30 years.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 06:36:37 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on April 08, 2015, 05:05:53 amCome on, almost every kid in the US has a computer, the question is what they do with it. Some Facebook all days while others program. It's a personal choice.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 09:55:48 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on April 08, 2015, 05:05:53 amI can imagine it would if the carreer path is towards ICT but not for electronics engineering. I'm from that generation but the thing is that having a ZX spectrum (or amy other computer) doesn't help becoming an electronics engineer. Back then every kid already knew how to use a word processor on a PC because it was taught in school.

author: DJohn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 11:11:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 07, 2015, 12:44:06 pmI have no idea if there is any innate difference between men and women in their interest in engineering. I think it would be close to impossible to measure it. But that's a dangerous way of thinking, as it forces individuals into categories that they might not belong in. Why, if we choose to measure this, are we splitting our subjects into male and female? Are we not pre-supposing a difference, and looking to confirm it?Suppose there's a measurable difference in running speed between people born in winter and people born in summer. You get twenty thousand people from each group, have them run 100m, and record their times. There might be a difference of half a second between the averages, and since you have such a large sample you conclude that there is a real difference between Winters and Summers.But then you look at the variance within each group, and you find that individual members of either group can have times varying by as much as 20 seconds. As a slower-end-of-typical member of the Summer group, the fact that Summer people are on average a little faster means nothing to me: more than half of the supposedly slower Winter group will beat me in a race.When you've got a measurable difference like that, even with those magical words "statistically significant" attached, there's a good chance that it means nothing to all but the extremes. To most of us, heaped in the middle somewhere, it makes no real difference.That's how many of the measurable differences between men and women work out in practice. There is a difference, but it only affects the few people at either extreme. The fastest men may run faster than the fastest women, but a fast woman will still beat most men. Unless you're deciding what events to put in the Olympics, it isn't useful information.If there's an innate difference in interest or skill in engineering between men and women, that isn't created by the external pressure of a hugely sexist society, what do we do with that information? Do we tell the women who are interested that they're wrong? Do we use it to excuse the continuation of the many barriers that exclude individual women from fields that they might thrive in?There are real barriers preventing women from participating in engineering (and many other things). Some of them will are deep parts of our culture which will, as you say, take generations to change. But some we can address now, and should. We shouldn't let the fear of doing an imperfect job stop us from trying at all.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 11:19:05 am
content: QuoteIf a thought is "dangerous", should we outlaw it?QuoteUnderstanding the meaning of "statistically significant" would be helpful.QuoteDon't force some social engineering needlessly on the society? To provide men AND women equal opportunities to pursue their dreams? Do not expect women to be stupid enough to be lured into tech by "fandoms" ...To do exactly the opposite of what you suggested below?Quote

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 01:29:32 pm
content: Quote from: DJohn on April 08, 2015, 11:11:32 amNo there aren't any real barriers.If a women wants to get into in engineering today, she can, easily. No shortage of successful women, and female role models etc if they want those.Heck, I'll go as far as to say there can bedemonstrable benefitsto being a female in the tech/engineering field.Any possible "barrier" is no different to the list of a dozen things I posted. Gender is just one small thing in a long list of possible barriers to any job/career.Males aren't magically exempt from this list.QuoteWhen all people have, on a whole, equal opportunity, which for engineering I think it pretty much we have now, I don't think there is anything that needs to be "addressed".I support groups that encourage girls to get into engineering/STEM etc, that's great. But beyond that anyone complaining about some huge inequality and institutionalised gender discrimination etc here is greatly overexaggerating the issue.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 01:57:33 pm
content: Quote from: Tallie on April 06, 2015, 08:58:11 pmIt's not a joke, when it comes to this topic Mojochan is trolling.And that reminds me, the last time misogyny was bought up on the forum he couldn't control himself and was temporarily banned after several people reported him.He can consider himself on notice again.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 03:48:46 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 08, 2015, 02:55:11 pmBy claiming that you were trolling when you asked if Dave was likening Sarkeesian to the Nazis, you're being given the benefit of the doubt that you aren't simply an idiot... you should take it as a kindness.Edit: How old are you, if you don't mind me asking. Feel free ignore this, it isn't necessarily pertinent to the conversation.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 04:00:37 pm
content: As much as it pains me to do so, I have to leap to mojo-chan's defence here. I think a lot of his arguments hold water and he is ploughing a fairly lonely furrow on this forum, so if he sometimes overreacts or sounds like a stuck record it is somewhat understandable.However, his uncritical approval of Anita Sarkeesian is getting rather wearisome. She raised some important issues and was viciously attacked for doing so, and this is unacceptable. She is also a manipulative rabble-rouser whose arguments have been described by many women as one-sided and badly constructed.QuoteThe reasoning employed by Jessica McDonald in her presentation about women in tech was similarly flawed. While it is not a reason to dismiss the subject as unimportant, there are clear differences between men and women which need to be taken into account when demanding 'equality'.Thereisa lot of sexual stereotyping in society, often perpetuated by women as well as men. Given the massive popularity among women of a recent book and movie about female submission, I don't think it is likely to be eradicated any time soon.As has been demonstrated effectively on this forum, sexism is still common and regrettable. As others have pointed out, so are ageism, racism, and just about every other manifestation of humanity's primitive instinct to gather into tribes and put down non-members. We are slowly emerging from centuries of male domination over women, and a lot of ingrained attitudes still need changing. Being lectured about them unremittingly is counterproductive, though.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 04:32:54 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 08, 2015, 04:16:04 pmAs usual you try to shift the burden on others.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 04:44:52 pm
content: QuoteYou are one of those people that no one could reason with. You always assume that others who disagree with you have evil intent and their life's goal is to do harm to everyone.I think if you were able to take an objective assessment of yourself, you will find a small-hearted, unintelligent, unsecure and negative person.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 06:10:24 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 08, 2015, 05:13:25 pmUnsecureisa word, although its legitimacy can be disputed. For example, the internet is an unsecure network. If it were insecure you might suspect it had confidence issues, and calling it an unsecurednetwork suggests that someone forgot to enable the switch to secure it.Quote from: Lewis Carroll

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 07:28:17 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 08, 2015, 05:13:25 pmDon't feed the trolls! Personal attacks due to lack of solid arguments don't need a response.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 09:29:28 pm
content: QuoteMy point exactly. You felt offended when others call you a troll. Yet, you never think twice calling others a troll.Nothing could have accentuated my point better than your eagerness to hold others to a different standard.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 12:07:19 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 08, 2015, 02:55:11 pmYou deliberately wind people up, and several people have reported your posts on these kinds of topics in the past.QuoteI chose not to engage you further on this particular topic, and I won't waste my breath explaining why. I don't owe you a rely to any post you make.I'm not the only one choosing to not engage you on this issue, I wonder why that is...QuoteI don't need my memory, I have the emails.QuoteIt's a fine line and case-by-case thing, I can't explain it to you, what I'm doing is just warning you if any reports start coming in about your posts then you arenota first time offender.QuoteIf I had reason for wanting you to leave, you would be gone already.In fact, it is you who wanted me to delete all your posts last time, remember? In fact I unbanned your account early so that you could do just that, delete all your posta as you requested. You obviously didn't go through with it.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 12:58:53 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 09, 2015, 11:40:00 amThat's silly.If anyone is an inferior negotiator and get paid less, it's their problem.All that will do is is mean everyone gets paid less.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 01:07:12 pm
content: QuoteCrusade it is.QuoteYeah, right,QuoteIs she confusing financial "equity" with fairness "equity" / "equality".Sounds to me she is trying to conserve cash and reduce her burn rate.End of the day, equal pay for equal output, regardless for gender, race, ethnicity, .... Meritocracy all the way is the only ***fair*** way.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 01:09:01 pm
content: QuoteYou want something do, you don't think it is worthy of your time to do it yourself so you wanted to shift the burden to others.That's no different from your eagerness to tax others to fund your pet projects.Next time, if you want it done, do it yourself. It is only fair.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 01:37:17 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 09, 2015, 01:04:46 pmIf multiple people report a post then there's usually something to it.If multiple people are calling you out on your posts on this issue, then there's probably something in that too that you can't see.QuoteThere is no ball, there is no court, there is nothing to reconcile. I'm just pointing out that you have been reported and banned before for issues to do with this same topic, so you are "on the radar".Whilst I no longer wish to reply to you on this particular topic of gender et.al, I otherwise have no issues with you at all. Any hint you may have otherwise is entirely in your own imagination.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 02:05:34 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 09, 2015, 12:58:53 pmSounds like she's butt-hurt for losing that sex-discrimination lawsuitOr it's simply a scam to pay less on average under the disguise of gender equally. In which case, clever CEO-manship, oops, womanship.I agree it's silly, and it will backfire on them by hurting their chances of being able to recruit good talent.http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/04/08/reddit-ceo-ellen-pao-bans-salary-negotiations-to-equalize-pay/Crusade is the right word here, and like other modern day gender crusaders they will always find what they are looking for in every place they look, and then vastly overrate it's importance and try to "fix" it with silly ideas like this. The bottom of that spiral sits Anita Sarkessian.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 02:22:49 pm
content: QuoteThen go work for her / this type of companies - no one is stopping you.End of the day, you lack negotiation skills so you want to take negotiation away from people who are good at negotiations.To you, it never occurred that other people may prefer negotiations and should have as much right to negotiate as you do NOT to negotiate.Again, vote with your feet, but don't impose that on the rest of the society.QuoteWell, we will see if it catches on with her employees and investors.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 02:48:03 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 09, 2015, 02:17:23 pmWhy stop there? We can get rid of gender itself. A few chops of the knife here and a few stitches there and equality achieved.It's amazing to me how some people try to handicap others to compensate for their own shortcoming. I cannot negotiate so others should not allowed to negotiate as well. I don't have enough money so I have the right to take from others. I want X so others should provide it to me. I am not motivated enough so others should 'outreach' to me.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 05:41:39 pm
content: The term "micro-aggression" was mentioned earlier in the thread(I'd never heard of it)...http://www.city-journal.org/2014/24_4_racial-microaggression.htmlWhat a wonderful world...

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 05:50:05 pm
content: Quote from: Tallie on April 09, 2015, 05:41:39 pmMay I propose another term, micro oppression. That's what the busybodies try to do over and over.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 06:31:16 pm
content: I propose the term Microprojection - constantly atributing to others what one most fears in themselves.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 06:32:25 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 09, 2015, 05:58:19 pmI like this explanation: "Instead, they are creating what tort law calls “eggshell plaintiffs”—preternaturally fragile individuals injured by the slightest collisions with life. The consequences will affect us for years to come."

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 07:18:14 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 09, 2015, 05:58:19 pmOn this point I'm more inclined to think that if you take everything as an insult it will feel as if the entire world is against you.Just like the incident with Ophra Winfrey in Zurich (Swiss). Someone in a shop misunderstood her and she starts yelling discrimination while she should have known not everybody speaks/understands English in a German speaking country. So who is discriminating who here?It is all about respect.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 07:21:06 pm
content: QuoteThat's why you cannot criticize those folks or things they do - anything suggestion that they are the slightest bit of less-than-perfect is personal insult to those folks.While at the same it, it is perfectly OK for those folks to call others all sorts of names.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 09:19:15 pm
content: I have read the article because of that I wrote 'it is all about respect'.Analysing what people may or may not mean by what they write or say is going to land you in a world of painful insults because at some point you can extrapolate everything into an insult. You have to operate under the assumption people do not mean to disrespect you by what they say or write unless it is obviously clear that they mean to disrespect or insult you. The whole microagression thing is just putting FUD (we can do without) in people's mind. It obfustigates the real problems at hand.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 09:22:48 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on April 09, 2015, 06:31:16 pmVery good point. They do it as well.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 09:31:09 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 09, 2015, 09:22:48 pmYep, it's a common human tendency and frequently gives rise to Straw Men (and Straw Women ;-) )

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 09:34:34 pm
content: QuoteSo people disagree with you because they didn't read or didn't understand yours points.QuoteFor someone crying "microagression", you seem to be very happy exercising aggression: view points different from yours are rubbish or rantings. When you insist that others be sensitive to your feelings, do you have the slightest concerns that your own behaviors may hurt others feelings.Apparently not.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 09:39:25 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 09, 2015, 08:51:44 pm"Some right wing rubbish"... it either happened or it didn't; doesn't really matter who wrote the article. Please feel free to post sources to the contrary, proving stuff like this:http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/education-2/this-ucla-professor-called-racist-for-the-horrible-thing-he-did-to-a-black-studentnever happens.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 10:49:47 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 09, 2015, 10:22:20 pmMaybe you insist too much on feminist topics!PD: Not cut my balls!

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 11:05:39 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 09, 2015, 10:20:18 pmMy claim? What have I claimed? I posted a link to an article detailing a ridiculous situation that your beloved "micro-aggressions" spurred. The incident culminated in a professor being sidelined for correcting a student of color's grammar. Instead of addressing the meat of the article, and whether or not you'd support such specious actions, you went on a sort of ad hominem attack... labeling the source as "right wing rubbish". Forgoing any meaningful commentary, you proceeded to define the term. Was the definition ever in contention? Who are you correcting? Personally, I don't care how the word's defined... this incident shows how it's being used. And that was my point.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 11:15:26 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 09, 2015, 08:51:44 pmSo anyone that doesn't think like you must do it because they are unaware (ignorant) or dicks.How difficult it must be for you to live in a world where almost everyone is a dick or ignorant.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 12:36:50 am
content: Quotemojo needs everyone to be absolutely sensitive to his/her feelings. yet, s/he doesn't give an arse to how others may be offended by mojo.For most people, that defines a "dick".

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 01:27:19 am
content: First, some clarification. I am a male. I have, over my life and career been a jerk and worse at times. To both my male and female colleagues. I don't know if there are fundamental or merely cultural differences between women and men. And I don't know if there is some optimum balance between men and women in our profession, let alone what that optimum might be.Now with that background, I will observe that woman were very much less common in my field than men. I will also observe that I worked with people of both sexes who represented a wide range of capabilities, from not being worth their pay up to absolute superstars of my professional field. The percentage of women in that upper group was much higher than the percentage overall, or the percentage in the lowest skill group. That is something that is worth thinking about from several angles.What does is say about how we develop engineers? What does it say about the best strategy for a company looking for talent? There are a lot of theories that come to mind, but I don't have any data to support or refute any of them. It seems that it would be very advantageous commercially to understand and leverage the factors that seem to be going on here.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 01:51:46 am
content: Like most similar situations, the low percentage of women in engineering is likely multifactorial, with innate differences, cultural norms, in addition to both unconcsious and outright descrimination all playing a role. The presence of the ongoing debate (which in general is not as lopsided as it is here on a male engineer dominated forum) means that the gap will likely eventually close IMO.A similar process occurred in medicine. My med school had a long hallway with framed class photos of every graduating class going back almost 200 years. For the first hundred years or so, no women. In the 1930s and 1940s a few. More in the 50s and 60s but still very low percentages. But from the late 60s onwards there was a rapid increase until the 90s when it became, on average, equal numbers. In fact, my graduating class in 2000 was 60% women.I'm sure if you listened in on the debate among male doctors 50 years ago on why there were so few women doctors it would sound a lot like the debate here.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 01:56:50 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on April 10, 2015, 01:51:46 amI don't think anybody here is against against women engineers. You are missing the point of this debate.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 02:12:43 am
content: Quote from: zapta on April 10, 2015, 01:56:50 amI agree. Why would you think otherwise?Quotei think I understand exactly the point of the debate and the various tangential debates seen here as well.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 08:17:44 am
content: I got that at work, but my kids are all grown up, so I want equality towards the new fathers that take time off.Actually for a father, you probably need the time off when your kids are on their teens more than when they are babies.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 09:05:36 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 10, 2015, 08:14:34 amHaving just called zapta a lunatic, you are hardly in a position to start accusing him of "ad-hominem insults and absurdities". Many of us on the forum disagree with his and dannyf's political views, but try not to let that blind us to the fact that they are intelligent people capable of making useful contributions to the forum.Unfortunately for you, they also both seem to enjoy provoking you into incandescent rage, quite possibly with the expectation that you will eventually go too far and get banned again.Many of the other contributors to this threadareaddressing the actual arguments. Maybe you should pay more attention to them?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 09:57:06 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on April 10, 2015, 01:27:19 amThat's an interesting observation, and I'd probably say that's not too dissimilar to my experience.Hard to say though, as the sample size hasn't been that great for me.If true, perhaps it might come down to girls thinking they have to try harder to succeed in male dominated field, and so, well, more than average do?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 10:00:24 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on April 10, 2015, 01:51:46 amIt has, and will surely continue to close, but I think is unlikely to hit 50/50 in electronics at least.What is for sure is that women have essentially the same opportunities as men in the field, and this is all that's needed to end the debate. The rest is white noise.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 10:29:45 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 10, 2015, 10:14:39 amOK, I may have been indulging in a little hyperbole, but the point stands. Substitute "intemperate responses", if you like.You may feel that you are calm and collected when posting but that's frequently not how you come across.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 11:34:37 am
content: QuoteNo. To brainwash someone, you would need understanding, careful planning and constructing of a trap, not to mention reading people and navigating around their EQ.I don't think you have demonstrated any trace of such capabilities.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 01:32:40 pm
content: QuoteIt is always other people's fault ("misinterpreting" you in this case). You are always right.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 02:32:16 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 10, 2015, 10:00:24 amThat may or may not be true. I honestly don't know. But surely there is room for honest debate, no?I do think that if it was true, the most militant feminists would still insist that it wasn't and that if it wasn't true, it would be difficult for many male engineers to see that. We all have our blind spots.It seems to me likely that there are probably some smaller engineering firms out there run by males who would just never hire a female engineer, no matter how qualified. I think it's equally likely that there are many that would (even if they haven't yet). The hard part if you're a woman who doesn't get the job, is knowing which it is. The smart ones will not waste time worrying about that though and just move on.But as I said in my earlier post, I think it is likely multi factorial and overt discrimination is probably a rare event- but I don't know.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 02:36:10 pm
content: Room for debate? Yes. 26 pages of it so far... let's have a show of hands... who has changed their mind? Anyone? Anyone?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 02:42:16 pm
content: Quote from: Tallie on April 10, 2015, 02:36:10 pmI changed my mind about Mojo Chan. Seriously.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 03:12:14 pm
content: Quote from: Tallie on April 10, 2015, 02:36:10 pmI don't think debate is necessarily about overtly changing people's minds. If you're lucky maybe it gets them to think a little more carefully about the subject.If I didn't find this thread entertaining and at least mildly informative I would have stopped reading and contributing long ago. How about you?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 03:22:30 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on April 10, 2015, 02:32:16 pmSure, anything can be debated, but I think the debate is pretty much over the noise these days. A debate over storm in a teacup.A generation ago, sure, it was a major problem, but these days the gender fight has been essentially won.QuoteBut it'sdemonstrably truethat there are no shortage of successful female engineers. Sure the numbers aren't high relative to males for the traditional societal reasons mentioned and the limited time (sub one generation) to allow change, but we are still talking alotin any case.That fact alone says there must be by and large generally equal opportunity.And IME that seems to be true.QuoteSure, just like there are smaller engineering firms out there run by males who would just never hire a *insert anything on the list I have posted*And this is want I am getting at, sure gender discrimination happens, but so does discrimination for countless other things. Gender issues get to take a number like every other issue.QuoteBingo, and therein lies the problem. The ones that kick and scream the loudest are the ones that think they are hard done byonlybecause they are female. It's pure one-eyed speculation. There are dozens of other reasons why a person won't get a job or a promotion etc.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 03:30:35 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 08, 2015, 01:29:32 pmI think they (average) are not interested, not in electronics, not in preparing race cars, not in plumbing, not in breaking speed records.Just like men (average) are not interested in dancing, fashion and barbie.The few females that entered engineering with me (<10%) nearly all chose chemistry/bio and not electronics, not electomechanics.And the veryvery few that indeed did electronics or electromechanics, ended up in a marketing, pure-sales or Human resources.It is proven in the sixties that you can't change someone's gender at birth, and raise him in the new gender.There is very much connected to the gender awareness, the ones who say no often have a political agenda or earn their money in that field.Quote from: EEVblog on April 08, 2015, 01:29:32 pmI don't (in my country/area)Everything they produce are sponsored childish video's, with false data. Geeky stuff, a real humiliation to the STEM field.Encouraging the wrong people to start, they often give up after 2 weeks, or choose another career.I am personally aware of only 3 women who work in the STEM field as a de-facto engineer. It's not them who complain about being discriminated.It's not them complaining about wage gap. I never expierienced a difference in working with them, because they are female.They also completely didn't have an outspoken lesbian, feminist behavour or look.No material for the media or TV.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 03:38:56 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on April 10, 2015, 02:32:16 pmAs in the other company that engages a female engineer only because she is a women. She passed the minimum requirement, there were mathematically better candidates but they like some diversity to make the group somewhat more dynamic, or need her for better contact with some customers.Quote from: mtdoc on April 10, 2015, 02:32:16 pmOften discrimination is used to cover up personal failure. I feel discriminated because I'm not 1m85 tall. Could have got other jobs, could have earned more.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 04:54:51 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 10, 2015, 03:22:30 pmI know a lot of men who would preferentially hire a woman, especially for an engineering-type job. Engineers tend to be nerds and I think for as many as would dislike having a woman around there are as many who would love to work with more women. Not to mention sales where a pretty woman would have a much easier time getting hired, but a fat old ugly guy? Not a chance.QuoteNot to mention... where is the line drawn? Is it OK to preferentially hire women for customer service roles because they tend to be more patient and calming to customers? Or to preferentially hire young people to work in a team of young people (or older people to work in a team of older people) because you feel they will fit in better?And your point about people that see what they want to see is illustrated perfectly by the fact that mojo was previously praising the idea of a meritocracy... yet people whose merits include negotiating skills shouldn't benefit from that merit compared to those who don't have it.Storm in a teacup is the right description indeed.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 05:04:32 pm
content: QuoteNot really - just look at those people who advocate hiring more on the basis of gender. People like you are openly sexist.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 07:09:06 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 09, 2015, 02:17:23 pmWhere are those studies? Are they independent or were they carried about by feminists?What if being able to negotiate is part of the job? Has it ever occurred to you, being expected to negotiate ones salary might be a test and those who don't, may not be offered the role at all?Quote from: mojo-chan on April 10, 2015, 02:37:51 pmI agree with you that some discrimination is unconscious and people should be aware of their potential biases.On the other hand because of past discrimination, there is a victim culture in some minority groups which is not beneficial. If a group of people are continuously being told, by society, they're being oppressed (due to their gender, sexual orientation, race etc.) then it's no surprise if they unconsciously perceive discrimination (sexism, homophobia, racism etc.) whether it exists or not.I remember when I was at school and there was an Indian boy (one of many) but he would make accusations of racism, more often than others did, normally because he couldn't get his own way. One day, he had an argument with another boy and he accused him of not liking him because he was Asian. The other boy said "No, I don't like you because you're a dickhead and no one else likes you either!" He went to tell the teacher who had overheard the whole argument and said the other boy was right, he needed to let his barriers down and not be so aggressive, for others to like him.It's fair enough telling people that sexism, homophobia and racism is unacceptable but it's also good to encourage them to try to see the best of others and not take offence too easily.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 10:21:56 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 10, 2015, 10:11:35 pmWhy did you take my question as an ad-hominem attack?It's a perfectly genuine question: whenever a study is raised, it's important to ascertain if there is any bias. For example, I'm sure one would be very dubious of a study on how a renewable energy source which as wind power is not economical if it were commissioned by an oil company. The same is true here.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 11:01:35 pm
content: QuoteFor someone who insists that others read his links, you should probably take that medicine of yours and read and more importantly understand the articles you are trying to cite in support of your point. Just reading the headline instead of the full article is too juvenile.In case you cannot comprehend it, the article said that men and women received different feedbacks (but don't give different feedbacks). That, by itself, probably doesn't suggest a bias - the homework is on you as to why.QuoteFor someone who dishes out most of the personal attacks here, you seem to have a real hard time taking what you give.Two suggestions:1. if you cannot stand the heat, get out of the kitchen;2. man up (no, it doesn't mean what a sexist would think it means).

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 09:27:20 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 11, 2015, 08:19:45 amI asked that question before you posted that link so I don't see how that's the same. If you'd posted it elsewhere in the thread, I'd obviously missed it - this thread is so long!I did find the article interesting, even though it was not a scientific study. The fact that the gender of the manager didn't make any difference was also interesting.The last bit was most illuminating:Quote

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 11:15:21 am
content: Anyone know if Reiter's Syndrome is fatal? I'm asking, uh, for a friend...Sent from my Tablet

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 11:53:21 am
content: Look it up on Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_arthritis#PrognosisIt sounds nasty. Yes the Nazis did some very important work, even though the methods used were inhumane but that doesn't indicate any bias. Perhaps if they did in experiment which suggested a certain race were inferior, then yes that would be fair to claim bias (same for a someone performing a study, showing how they're being discriminated against) but this isn't the case for here, regardless of how horrific the methods used were.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 05:05:51 pm
content: Another thing to note about that study is regardless of the negative comments, they were still employed and promoted, probably quite often in preference to their male colleagues.Quote from: mojo-chan on April 10, 2015, 10:11:35 pmNo ones talking about gender discrimination here. Negotiation skills are important for a variety of jobs, even if it isn't the primary role. Quite often an engineer will need to negotiate timescales and cost with suppliers, customers and their managers. It's a good life skill to have, so it wouldn't be surprising if it's tested by some employers when selecting candidates

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 06:03:54 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 11, 2015, 04:13:33 pmLet this thread die already...

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 08:21:01 pm
content: NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.An optional additional explanation is:

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 11:02:47 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 11, 2015, 08:19:45 amWhat's wrong with having worked for the nazis? (I think we reach Godwin's law here)Only a very small amount of them really knew what was going on, and for the ones who like to count,they were pussies compared to multiple other regimes when counting the people that regime murdered.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 11:06:25 am
content: Please stay on topic people.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 11:47:35 am
content: Quote from: Galenbo on April 12, 2015, 11:02:47 amA lot... but then again... medicines have improved a lot since WWII. Large German pharmaceutical companies like Bayer (which still exists) have been involved in experimenting on people as well. And some of the Japanese doctors involved in truly horrific experimenting ended up high in the ranks of major Japanese pharmaceutical companies after the war. Sickening but true.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 11:55:23 am
content: I'll say it one more time,please stay on topicor this thread gets locked.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 05:47:11 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 12, 2015, 11:55:23 amNP, we can move the Nazi discussion to another thread. Luckily it goes well with any topic.;-)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 06:36:29 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 12, 2015, 05:47:11 pmLol, most of discussions tend to end with with the Nazis.If wage negotiation is sexist then perhaps the same is true for all performance reviews? What a load of rubbish!The thing is it would be great to have more female engineers. I am also fairly left wing in my political views compared to some people here. Government subsidised maternity/paternity leave is good thing. Universal healthcare is great.I dislike feminism because it's no longer about not discriminating against women but being pro-female above anything else: male, transgender etc. and doesn't allow for the possibility that women are different than men, even though they're equal. I'd like to see the whole movement replaced with something more positive and constructive.Ideally we shouldn't need to have childcare. One person should be able to earn enough to support their partner and their children, until they're all of school age, then one parent can work part time. We need to encourage healthy relationships between men and women which the modern feminist movement seems to be very good at destroying.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 06:41:06 pm
content: QuoteAny assessment of anyone will inherently be unfair to someone (unless everyone is equally assessed), thus a violent breach for the "equality" crowd.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 09:18:39 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 12, 2015, 08:22:46 pmNot entirely sure what an MRA is, please define your jargon. Men's Rights Activist, perhaps?Take a look at this:QuoteSeveral people in this thread have made the points outlined in the quote above, and you have dismissed them all. The difference is that this comes from an article written by a woman on a website for working women.The article is titled: "Reddit Nixing Salary Negotiations Isn’t Feminist. It’s Sexist", and happens to be the first hit if you google Hero999's phrase "if wage negotiation is sexist".It makes an interesting read, but you have already demonstrated your ability to ignore women's views about sexism in favour of your own so I suppose it's unlikely to make any impression.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 09:21:33 pm
content: Yes, I think he means Men's Rights Activist. A group of people who are seen as misogynistic.Quote from: mojo-chan on April 12, 2015, 08:22:46 pmIf you like Sweden that much then why not go and live there?Getting rid of wage negotiation is just an excuse to pay people less, in the name of equality. It's very capitalist. They want to employ people who just do what they're told and are incapable of negotiating things such as timescales with their managers.Good parenting is when the parents care for their children, not the state or nannies.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 09:50:24 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 12, 2015, 08:22:46 pmEvery single one of us is always selling, which means we are always negotiating. To say "negotiation has nothing to do with job performance" is fundamentally wrong - like saying "communication skills have nothing to do with job performance". It also suggests that negotiation itself is not a merit when it most certainly is.The reality is... it's not about merit... it's about lowering the value placed on some things and raising the value placed on others based on what suits the individual. Everyone likes to think they are just as good as everyone else - when nothing could be further from the truth. We should have the same opportunity, not the same outcome. It's up to each of us to determine the outcome... and sometimes, smart people try hard and still fail. Life isn't fair... and it's not fair that a tall, handsome man earns more money than a short ugly guy does - but that's just life.Anyone who doesn't realize we are always selling, all the time, has quite a bizarre view of the corporate world, IMO.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 09:56:11 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 12, 2015, 09:21:33 pmI don't think it's capitalist, I think it's socialist.The idea that the employer solely decides what pay will be is idiotic... I guess candidates are free not to accept the job, but that means no high flyers are ever going to work at Reddit. If you are a standout performer, head and shoulders above the rest... you are going to want your pay to reflect that. Why waste your time interviewing at Reddit when they have already said they will not negotiate pay and they will decide what the job is worth? I wouldn't waste my time on that crap.It ensures they will have a stream of mediocre candidates who are willing to capitulate and work for what the employer determines their value to be. I have to wonder if Pao negotiated her salary when coming on board... I'm going to presume she did.And this is the problem when people try to impose their world view on others... if she doesn't want to negotiate, that's fine... but she is dicking over a whole bunch of other people in the process, simply based on her biases and beliefs. The same biases and beliefs that let her to believe - and be proven wrong in a court of law - that her former employer was out to get her.Then need to fire that woman yesterday.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 10:02:34 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 12, 2015, 09:56:11 pmWhy do you see it as socialist?I see not being allowed to negotiate with one's managers as capitalist, under the guise of socialism. Don't forger it's workers who negotiated with their employers and won the rights we take for granted today.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 10:14:47 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 12, 2015, 10:02:34 pmBecause it tries to equalize and attempts to allocate a fixed amount of remuneration without regard to performance or individual quality. I see it both ways, and the specific term doesn't really matter... but we agree that refusing to negotiate with candidates is a bad thing all around. The only people who benefit are those who would not be good negotiators anyway, but don't want to "feel" (there's that word again) that they got less.I say 'feel', because I find it unlikely the company would set higher pay offers and then refuse to negotiate, but rather would make similar offers as before - but just say they won't negotiate.Of course, the whole "we don't negotiate" thing is total bullshit, because if a superstar salesman walks in who can bring $10MM of ROI, but their standard offering was $200k for a salesman when this guy wants $500k... it would be an appalling breach of fiduciary duty not to negotiate a competitive wage with that salesman because of a foolish belief that negotiation makes some people feel left out and so they don't do it.She needs to be fired. Like, yesterday.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 11:18:15 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 12, 2015, 09:50:24 pmTotally agree. That is why the Reddit no negotiation thing is so stupid.In almost any job, but especially technical ones you have to negotiate all the time. Even programmers often have to sell and negotiate their new features, the way they coded it, the way it works, who's going to work on what etc.The CEO is just on some one-eyed feminist fueled agenda, doesn't matter if it makes any practical sense or not, or is good for the company or not, they will invent whatever reason is necessary to make it happen.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 11:40:45 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 12, 2015, 10:14:47 pmAnd take up a job in public service where they have fixed pay grades for everyone. Of course, she'll hate that because it's a pay grade range, and you can still somewhat negotiate which level you enter on.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 11:33:40 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 13, 2015, 08:59:44 amWhy did the engineer have to negotiate with the supplier so hard on cost? No doubt it was their manager who wanted them to keep costs down. It's possible if they'd done a better job at negotiating with their manager, they wouldn't have had to drive such a hard bargain with the supplier.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 03:00:58 pm
content: People with different skills, including negotiation skills, have different market values. That is, what pay level they can achieve from potential employers. What that CEO is doing is ignoring the market value and creating her own utopian market scale with her notion of 'fairness'. If her shareholders let her do it I don't see a problem with it. It's their money. Consider it as a charity for the wimps.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 03:11:43 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 13, 2015, 08:59:44 amNegotiation is part of sales, and we are always selling. Every one of us is selling every day, which means we are negotiating every day. "Negotiating a salary during a job interview" is not a skill in and of itself, it is the greater skill of negotiation that dictates whether you are good or not at negotiating a salary. And if you are bad at it, that will absolutely affect other areas of your work without question, regardless of what job you do - whether you are the janitor or a secretary or the CEO. You are dismissing it simply because it is a skill you say you don't have, therefore you are presenting it as unimportant. That is human nature - just like how short guys pretend women don't prefer tall guys and such.QuoteI really think you might just be trolling at this point. You really want to claim negotiation is not important because of an anecdotal story of a guy who pressed to save money and got substandard parts? And you are complaining above about the guy appealing to authority???Even if your story is true as presented - which I don't believe it is - it was not a failure of negotiation at all, unless the negotiation included a caveat from the supplier that the batteries would not be functional.The story is equally as ridiculous as someone presenting a counterpoint to the topic of this thread that they know a woman who got into STEM due to fandom, and then washed out and had to turn to prostitution, and therefore STEM women fandom causes prostitution.We've entered the realm of the farcical at this point.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 03:15:35 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 13, 2015, 09:01:33 amNo, I have not misunderstood at all. Reddit claims they will come up with the compensation package and will not negotiate it. First off, that claim is clearly bullshit and any company who makes such a claim needs to ditch their shit businessperson who came up with the idea. But having the salary set at the employer's sole discretion eliminates high flyers from being compensated for their superior performance.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 04:27:24 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 13, 2015, 04:13:51 pmYou have carefully edited out the part where Corporate666 states that he is referring to the greater skill of negotiation in general, and then reframed your argument.Bad mojo-chan.If you are a janitor whose work is suffering due to poor equipment or excessive workloads, the ability to negotiate better conditions with your supervisor is highly likely to positively impact your performance.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 05:19:13 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 13, 2015, 04:13:51 pmThe janitor/maintenance guy at the company I work with is responsible for negotating with suppliers on cleaning (for example, window cleaning) and supplies, if that counts.I'm sure you must have had an opportunity in your job to ask a supplier for samples, or for a price quote. Sure, the purchasing department may make the final negotiations, but you're being silly if you don't think that negotiation is important in the modern work place. Especially as an engineer.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 06:53:14 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 13, 2015, 04:12:32 pmHaving to pay a price that is acceptable to both company and candidate... and if you don't offer enough, the candidate won't come to work for you.Hmmm, if only they had a word for that sort of process whereby both parties come to an agreement on whether the latter will work for the former.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 06:56:45 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 13, 2015, 04:13:51 pmThis is what you don't get. ALL of us are selling, ALWAYS. Every day, every time we interact with anyone (pretty much), we are selling. And negotiation is part of selling.If you don't understand that - then I don't feel it is my responsibility to explain and provide examples that you accept. You've shown a penchant for dismissing other people's examples and proofs when it doesn't suit your MO, and if you don't think something as fundamental as "we are always selling - all of us" is true, then it's never going to click for you, regardless of what examples are. But as a thought experiment, ask yourself... is a janitor ever asked for their opinion or feedback, or are any janitors allowed to give it? If so, sales and negotiations are taking place. You do this stuff every day - you just don't realize it. And being bad at it affects your life in incalculable ways.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 07:00:43 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 13, 2015, 02:36:03 pmBeing able to negotiate with one's manages is a sign of self-confidence which isn't required for negotiating with a supplier. Perhaps if the engineer had more self-confidence he wouldn't have allowed his manager to bully him into driving down costs so low?

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 07:08:47 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 13, 2015, 05:19:13 pmGood example, but it can be even more fundamental than that...Boss: Hey, we have someone coming on Monday to deliver a new machine - can you mop the shop floor so the forklift doesn't get hung up on anything?Bad Negotiator Janitor: Sure boss <sulks off feeling angry that he already had a full workload and now he will have to work late on a Friday night>Good Negotiator Janitor: Well, I've just started <other job> that won't be done by 5pm... but I could come in this weekend if it's important <and add kudos points to my reputation and get time-and-a-half pay for my hassle>One can conceive of countless examples - but we are all selling every day, which means we are all negotiating every day. If someone sucks at negotiating, then that's their problem. It's a fixable problem and if they choose not to learn about the skill of negotiation and improve at it, then it is not the rest of society's responsibility to coddle them and ensure they don't suffer for their lack of motivation to improve themselves... it's their responsibility.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 09:41:52 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 13, 2015, 07:08:47 pmI'm very bad at any kind of negotiation, it's part of my syndrome and I hate it.Despite my motivation, it's hard to change that behavior in a world that still encourages an slavery attitude.Fortunately I improved a bit after some years. But not enough. I learned to avoid to be exploited a bit, not enough.And change some kind of personal issue can be very hard, specially if you are unable to pay tons of moneyone of those rare gems known as Good Therapists.I think your words are a bit harsh you have no clue how fucked up an human mind can me. And I don't deserve it, so please refrain about your nonsense.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 10:19:22 pm
content: Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on April 13, 2015, 09:41:52 pmYou don't need to pay a lot of money to a therapist to solve whatever underlying issues that make you a bad negotiator. You've already stated that you recognize the problem, have made steps to overcome it, have made progress and still have a ways to go. You're already 2/3rds of the way there. You can solve these kinds of problems by immersing yourself in a role that requires you to confront these issues head on.When I was young, I was shy and nervous. I was terrible at public speaking, and I was terrible with conflict. If someone came to me with a complaint, I'd want to solve it - even if I got the short end of the stick. I was also not great at sales - I felt like a jerk bothering people with stuff that they hadn't asked me about first.I tackled the problems head on. When I was a teenager, I got a job selling vacuum cleaners door to door. I dealt with angry people, rejection, negotiations and sales all day long. I hated it with a passion, but it was an amazing learning experience at 18 years old. I joined a group that forces you into public speaking. I asked to go on sales calls and learned from successful salesman and negotiators and managers. And in a pretty short time - problem solved. I love public speaking and I do well with it. I am good in negotiations and sales and I even enjoy the thrill of the hunt. And I overcame my issues with conflict and I don't let such issues get to me personally.Yes, it is hard to overcome such issues, but anyone can do it and there is no excuse not to do it. And, yes, I do understand how f*cked up a human mind can be, because we all suffer from various phobias and social problems - and I was no exception.Own the problem - and fix it. Or complain about it online... whatever floats your boatBut only one of those courses of action will improve your future.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 07:51:10 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 13, 2015, 10:19:22 pmYou're right that if you recognise you have a problem, it's good as it makes you aware of it and you can work on it.However bear in mind the person you're responding to said they have a syndrome which is a major contributing factor. Now we don't know what this condition is, I'd probably guess it's autism related. Although the disability may make dealing with others difficult, the lack of confidence will make this worse.Unfortunately there will be people who have a disability which make life difficult for them, whether it be blindness, inability to concentrate, dwarfism etc. Although I agree people should make allowances and help, there will be the odd person who takes advantage - life's a bitch I'm afraid but don't give up.Therapy for this sort of thing should be covered by public health care which is an investment. If the therapy is a success, the patient can get a well paid job and pay the money back to the government in taxes and national insurance.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 08:24:41 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 14, 2015, 08:05:32 amOf COURSE engineering isn't always about the lowest cost. Just as it is not about the best quality parts or the quickest way to do something.This is a fundamental pillar of engineering and project management. Cheap, fast, good: pick any two. Showing you have these skills to an employer shows you are more valuable as an employee. Which is why wage negotiation is a good skill to have both for you and the employer. If an employer is willing to negotiate a higher salary than the normal offering they obviously believe you are above average. Being able to negotiate only helps that appeal.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 11:16:31 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 14, 2015, 08:38:20 amBoo-friggin-hoo, it's a private company, that's the risk of market capitalism when you have imperfect information about another party.You perform to the job's specifications, going above and beyond where necessary and viable (e.g. project deadline.) I hardly think you're screwing yourself if the company overpays YOU. If they expect more than what they were asking for in the interview/job description, the onus is on them, not the employee.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 01:23:27 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 14, 2015, 07:51:10 amI'm ADHD.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 05:43:54 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 14, 2015, 08:05:32 amI did not say take it on faith, I said that if you don't understand the fundamental part of my argument, then you're never going to see what builds upon that. The idea that we are always negotiating is a fundamental aspect of our society, so if you disagree and feel that negotiation is only relevant in specific roles, then we are so far apart on fundamental truths that I don't see the point of making the case from that point. And since you agree that we are always negotiating, I don't see the point in challenging it.QuoteSalary negotiation is not a discrete skill. It is a subset of negotiation in general - a skill which you admitted above is fundamental to our society and useful in every day life.End of story - anything else is just trolling.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 06:16:12 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 14, 2015, 08:35:59 amOf course you have a couple - nothing is your fault, and everyone should adapt to your situation. You have stated in this thread you dislike negotiating, and are therefore in favor of everyone else being crippled so that you don't have to do what you dislike. You stated in the eBay thread that it's not your fault that you are unaware of eBay policies, because they are hiding it from you - yet it is written right on the front page of eBay in exactly the same size font as the other text. Virtually everyone in this thread has pointed out where you are wrong or just being silly, and even Dave has warned you and suggested you're bordering on trolling - but none of that matters, because you are right - you know what is best for everyone and nothing is your fault.That is a serious personality flaw - the lack of personal responsibility.As for the guy who says he is not good at negotiation, I am not saying he doesn't have a problem or that he "just needs to snap out of it". I am specifically referring to the problem with negotiating that he alluded to, and the fact that he has made progress but still has a way to go. There is no pill one can take that will make one a better negotiator, and there is no psychological realization one will arrive that which will do it either. Practicing that specific skill makes one better at it - just as practicing *anything* makes one better at it.QuoteYou acknowledged above that negotiation is a fundamental part of our society, and it is absolutely something that can be learned and practiced and anyone can become better in. If someone elects not to improve themselves in this way, they have no standing to complain that they got left out. And expecting people to be responsible for their own development is not insulting at all - it is life. Wanting everyone else to be held back so you can not feel left out is what is insulting. You say you can't fight - not sure what that means, but it appears you are self conscious about perhaps being small. Changing one's body shape is extremely difficult, but it's possible. I am living proof. So yes, if you *choose* not to do something about it, then it is absolutely your fault and I have no sympathy. But joining a gym and exercising and learning about nutrition and eating is hard... better to just blame the rest of society for size and strength being a defining characteristic of malesQuoteYou've repeatedly made this claim and nobody has agreed with you yet (don't let that dissuade you - anyone who doesn't see things your way doesn't just have different experiences or opinions - it just means they are wrong... and if everyone disagrees with you like in this thread, it just means everyone else is wrong).My girlfriend is in medical drug sales. She is a great negotiator, she is strong willed and is a no-bullshit boss of her team. She is also very successful. You are the only one who has applied labels like "bossy" and "bitch" to those qualities. It seems you are the only one on this thread who is intimidated by such women.QuoteYes, everyone who doesn't agree with you is "the problem" and no matter how many people here disagree with you, they are all just wrong.Sorry - at this point you are just trolling, and I have a business to run and don't have another 20 minutes to spent on this thread. You will never take responsibility for the things you are deficient in and you will never accept when you are mistaken. There it no point pressing the issue with you because you are just trolling now. I think you have done yourself a huge disservice in this thread and even Dave has pointed it out.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 06:33:23 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 14, 2015, 06:22:24 pmI have watched you resort of ad-homs numerous times in this thread - I believe it was Zapta you called a "lunatic", and you bashed Zapta and dannyf numerous times calling them crazy or right wingers or something - all the while complaining about name calling. If you can't stand the heat, and all that.I don't see what position is being mischaracterized... it seems to me you say things but when called on them you change your position (like challenging negotiating as being important to us all and then saying you agree that's likely true). That is why it appears you are just trolling.I am sure you are a nice guy in person - but in this thread it most definitely comes across like you have some areas you are self conscious about and feel it is everyone else's job to adapt to your needs, not the other way around. Life just doesn't work like that and people who can adapt can prosper, especially if you're in the upper part of the intellectual bell curve, which most on here almost surely are.I know quite a few intelligent and successful women and, frankly, it's insulting that you label some with "bossy" and "bitch" when that is the furthest thing from my personal and professional experience. And I employ a majority of women compared to men... actually we're about 2/3rd women in my business, especially at the managerial level. So tossing bombs like "you're part of the problem" pretty much says everything about your perspective and the accuracy of your insight on this matter, I'm afraid.Anyway, this thread has turned into a comedy (or a tragedy, depending on your POV) and I have better things to do - feel free to have the last word.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 07:51:31 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 14, 2015, 08:05:32 amNegotiation is a generic life skill along with others such as listening to others.QuoteNow you're talking about making engineering and business decisions in addition to negotiation.Quote from: mojo-chan on April 14, 2015, 08:35:59 amYou're talking about denying those with a skill (negotiation) to demonstrate it at a job interview, just because you believe women who are good at it can be seen to be bossy and bitchy, based on one study which wasn't even scientific. No one here has said women who are good negotiators are bossy and bitchy and even if some people think that way who cares? The women in that study still prospered anyway.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 07:33:25 am
content: Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on April 14, 2015, 01:23:27 pmReally? Because I'm ADHD and amazingly great at negotiations (I got a dealer to sell a car to my ex at 10% below cost a couple of years back), awesome at public speaking (took first in regionals every year from 1st grade on in a Poetry, Prose and Monologue competition) and fantastic with sales (I started an ISP at 16 which I built up by hand into a thriving company).The way you made out your "disorder" I thought you were talking about ass-burger's syndrome, not ADHD.The thing about ADHD is, you only have trouble focusing and following through with things you don't enjoy. So obviously you don't enjoy negotiating. A lot of people don't. You just have to work harder at it. ADHD doesn't inherently make you worse at it.But, the things you actually enjoy doing, well, you have a distinct advantage over non-ADHD people and should try to capitalize on that.So, grab some amphetamine and keep working on your negotiating. You'll get there, I promise.Sent from my Tablet

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 08:46:10 am
content: Quote from: timb on April 15, 2015, 07:33:25 amI thought that too but didn't say anything because I'm no expert. All I know is I've had similar mental health problems in the past and Asperger Syndrome has been ruled out but not ADHD which is still a possibility but I'm coping at the moment so it's not an issue.Perhaps he's been misdiagnosed?Another possibility is other disorders such as social anxiety and depression which can have other negative effects on one's personality and abilities. The Wikipedia article says half of people with ADHD face social rejection by their peers, which is bound to result in other disorders such as social anxiety and depression which may make things such as negotiation difficult.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorderEither way we can't diagnose someone over the Internet.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 08:43:13 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 15, 2015, 08:46:10 amADHD is very complex, I also have maturity issues. Some people overcome certain difficulties because their life and personality allowed it.I showed my diagnosis to some mental health and pedagogy professionals and they say is very good and complete one. Anyway, I'm OK with more reviews but that requires MONEY.I don't want others adapt to me, I want to improve. But I get demotivated even on things I like A LOT!Some ADHD people are extrovert, others are introverted and look a bit autistic. Some have autism-like traits but became shameless and extrovert, despite even their humour can be a bit foolish. I can be extrovert if feeling comfortable but end annoying, others I can be very introvert if anxious or annoyed (and not expressing my opinions).Feel free to reply on my ADHD forum thread. I would like to know other ADHD people and even your unique behaviour as ADHD, like being a good negotiator!

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 03:04:34 pm
content: Quote from: Tallie on April 18, 2015, 02:16:30 amIt doesn't matter, perception is everything. We are going to have here an election season and one of the candidates which is a'wife of' is likely to play heavily the gender card.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 05:02:48 pm
content: I personally think a push to get the average level of science and technology education up a few notches would improve the situation. Give EVERYONE the requisite knowledge to at least see these things aren't just useful but can be interesting and (at times) fun to work on and the situation will start to level out naturally.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 05:03:58 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 18, 2015, 03:04:34 pmWhen I was younger. I worked at a supermarket and wouldn't have been surprised if the women there generally got more per hour than the men did. People working at the checkouts got a higher hourly rate than those who stacked shelves because it required training and the most of the checkout staff were female as the role required less physical strength. On the other hand, the men probably worked longer hours and the women were more likely to be part time so men would've got more in their pay packets than the women.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 05:37:37 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on April 18, 2015, 05:02:48 pmEveryone? Most people couldn't care less about STEM.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 06:03:42 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 18, 2015, 05:37:37 pmAnd I'll admit most never will. But how many more people would have at least a genuine layman's interest if they came out of high school with a more thorough understanding of basic maths and science and the practical applications, had a decent grounding to build that interest upon?One major problem is teachers don't get kids interested in a field. Unfortunately the only way to fix that would involve hiring teachers who actually care about the subject they're teaching...

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 06:37:09 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on April 18, 2015, 05:02:48 pmI agree, improving education in STEM subjects is a good idea but it wouldn't necessarily even out the male:female ratio, especially given girls generally do better at school anyway.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 06:59:37 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 18, 2015, 06:37:09 pmIt'd take a while, and you'll never get a 50/50 distribution in any field if it isn't achieved artificially with quotas etc, but (I believe) it would even out the playing field and help move towards a more representative and sustainable equilibrium. It would also not only produce more engineer, scientists and coders* as a very much needed short term benefit, by pushing it to everyone you'd just naturally end up with more "minorities" in fields they are... given the impression isn't for them no matter their potential, more men in certain skilled fields dominated by women, a general population more capable of judging policies related to STEM subjects**, and no way for certain groups to whine that "that should be my job but I'm not black/have a penis/like the opposite sex..." and be taken at all seriously.*I'm still not convinced programming is science or engineering even if it is related.**Which I guess for politicians of all stances would be a bad thing.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 08:16:20 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on April 18, 2015, 06:59:37 pmI think your goal is to even the score, not the playing field.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 09:57:47 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 18, 2015, 08:16:20 pmNope, not at all. The course of action I think would work best would at least really help a serious problem, the decline in interest in the areas that shape the world. The results beyond that are not a goal but what I think would happen. Given long enough. Unfortunately longer than a single term...

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 08:40:24 am
content: Quote from: timb on April 15, 2015, 07:33:25 amIf you think you are great at negotiations because of that reason, you might have another disorder than ADHD.I personally know two guys that have been diagnosed with ADHD in the past, they behave like every healthy uncircumcised guy around.If they don't do some sports, they get somewhat restless, like many others. ADHD is fake.http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/6/adhd-fake-disorder-neurologist-turned-author-says/

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 09:52:02 am
content: Quote from: Galenbo on April 19, 2015, 08:40:24 amWell, that was just an example that sprang to mind, but I'm not sure how it disprove's my assertion.As for the rest of your comment, ADHD isn't about being restless and I'm not sure what playing sports has to do with it, other than getting excess energy out, which again, has nothing to do with ADHD.Anyone who says the disorder is fake clearly doesn't have it. Granted, it has been over diagnosed in the past, especially by overworked GPs to kids who are just being kids.I was diagnosed at 6, right at the peak of the crazy. Obviously my parent's were wary, so they spent money they didn't have to get me seen by the (at the time) leading authority on the East Coast regarding ADHD. His research laid the groundwork for much of what we know about the actions of the disorder on the brain.He wrote things too. Only his works went into peer reviewed medical journals instead of sensationalist books.Perhaps this video (from a doctor) will further clarify my point:Sent from my Tablet

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 04:14:57 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 19, 2015, 03:48:22 pmIt's nothing to do with sexism. People call Nicola Sturgeon Krankie because they think she's like the one of the Krankies, an 80 Scottish comedy act:Of course Hillary Clinton is going to be accused of following her husbands policies because he was president first. No one said that about Margaret Thatcher.What zapta is saying is she's using the fact that she wants to be the first female president in a similar manner to Obama being the first black president when gender or race shouldn't come into it.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 07:04:23 pm
content: Quote from: timb on April 19, 2015, 09:52:02 amMy vision is only based on those 2 examples and what the media says. I'm no doctor or researcher.Maybe I can state it otherwise: Everything mainstream people, mainstream media and overconsumerist healthsystems tell about ADHD is fake.This is not an attempt to offend you.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 07:43:34 pm
content: Quote from: Galenbo on April 19, 2015, 08:40:24 amThat's a great source of information! I always read about serious stuff on sensationalist media. I also read The Onion and The Sun for.my research. What about do you think about illuminati and reptilians? That's very important!You never had ADHD or know properly a person with it. Your reply is nonsense and toxic. I suffered being undiagnosed ADHD and I'm now 30yo, diagnosed a year ago.Thanks of ideas like yours, we are often put into shame and not receive a proper therapy, and public healthcare ignores us. Many idiots in healthcare believe that crap, unfortunately.You are trolling about ADHD. This is very serious. My girlfriend has practices at a minors' center (they theft, were drug dealers and some.even killed someone) and many of them have severe mental issues, many of them show very immature and ADHD behaviours. Some people are unable to cope with ADHD because biological and social problem and have a very wrong life.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 08:22:04 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 19, 2015, 06:30:47 pmYou mean like thishttp://politicalhumor.about.com/od/republicans/a/Chris-Christie-Jokes.htmDianne Feinstein is a woman and people take her seriously so it must be something else.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 08:37:53 pm
content: People always take the piss out of Ed Miliband for looking like the animated character Wallace but he doesn't whine about it; he joins in with the banter.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10990922/Ed-Miliband-jokes-that-he-looks-like-Wallace.htmlDon't want this sort of shit? Don't become a politician: whether you're male, female, black or white, people will always take the piss out of how you look, talk, walk etc.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 10:55:18 pm
content: Today I found a book on internship which one of my sons left somewhere in the house. He is doing something technical and the entire book is in he/him form. At the first page it says that women should read she/her instead of he/him... IMHO it is a prime example on how not to make women welcome.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 07:46:43 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 19, 2015, 10:55:18 pmThe silly thing is in the past, it was standard English to say him, his when the gender was unknown. The only reason for that statement was to try to be politically correct and not appear sexist.They should've just used just use (s)he and their (rather than his/her) or alternated between the two, if they wanted to keep it gender neutral.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 08:05:30 am
content: Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on April 19, 2015, 07:43:34 pmLooks more like you are a professional victim. Any other holocausts I started, to complain about?

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 12:58:11 pm
content: Media is in a psychopath spiral, their workers are dehumanized or brainwash themselves to the mainstream ideology as a way to survive and not suffer from it. Some of them are aware and dislike it, but consider the benefits are better for themselves than the inconveniences.This is also called as corporate culture. You see it everywhere and is very obvious in sponsorized activities.That happens in every aspects of life, people get hypocrite all time. If you aren't, you often get marginalized.Being a liar and hypocrite is considered an essential social skill in this society. That's why people bad at them are unable to adapt to this shit.Maybe a world of aspies would be a better place!

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 01:08:22 pm
content: Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on April 20, 2015, 12:58:11 pmIt'd certainly be a lot quieter

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 03:31:41 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 20, 2015, 03:19:57 pmAh, but you see it's men's faults women are like that. Oh and if a woman happens to disagree she's a shill for the patriarchy...And of course men doing similar is the liberal lamestream media's aggressive feminazi agendas fault...

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2015, 09:47:38 am
content: Quote from: BradC on April 20, 2015, 01:08:22 pmWhat makes you say that? Some people with Aspergers can be very verbose, especially about certain things. I know someone with AS and she's talks a lot about her favourite boy band - she's obsessed with them.