Building a compact and affordable lab (<1k€ budget) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: GTheis
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 11:35:54 am
content: Hi all,I'll start by saying I am a bit afraid to be too little prepared and thus sound like I want everything given to me. Then I need to say that I am a PhD student, living in the Netherlands, that has focused on antenna design for the past year and I had just recently to do some SPI control for the chip used on my antenna system.This made me realize I am losing a bit of my knowledge in analog and digital electronics (and RF) which I would not like to happen.I also quite like the idea of spending my free time doing some designs ranging from DC-DC converters, to sensor systems for my house, to open-source transceiver (with PAs) for things like cubesats. But I have no access to test equipment to do so.I currently have some interesting boards with me:Pluto SDRNooelec SDRArduino unoSTM32 Blue PillTI TivaRaspberry Pi 4BCurrently, I have only a multimeter with me. My main question is where to start from and how much to spend on each part. Ideally the total budget should be below 1k€ and each part would be <500€. Secondly, I have no idea to where to buy such equipment for a cheap price and from a reliable source in the Netherlands so I've appealed to Aliexpress and Amazon. From what I gathered I would like to have a logic analyser for all my digital circuits testing, a AWG and Oscilloscope for analog circuits, a power supply and a soldering iron. For RF I'd like to have a VNA and the nano VNA v2 seems quite good and should be enough for personal projects.I've started a list myself for this lab:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QrzwHOmzEFykOD85kRTDJxjEUWgw0KzOYBwNkg24c9g/edit?usp=sharingThe things I am afraid is how reliable the things I've picked are, which is why I have the room to go up to 1k€. The main doubt comes from the oscilloscope. I think I could make a nice lab with this money if I were to get second-hand equipment, but I don't seem to find this easily in ebay. The idea is to have this lab to be enough for at least 5 years or so.Thanks in advance,Guilherme

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 05:38:34 pm
content: I built my lab almost entirely with used gear. Sometimes it seems like wasted money but the bottom line is that now my very well equipped lab has cost me very little.Sometimes I have to repair what I buy but that teaches me a lot as well. And it prepares me to repair my equipment when necessary.As I have said elsewhere, an engineering degree doesn't teach us how to engineer, but helps to figure out how to learn.

author: GTheis
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 07:03:24 pm
content: Quote from: bob91343 on November 24, 2020, 05:38:34 pmThat's what I'd love to do. One of my favourites channels is TSP because how he does this kinda of repair. The main thing is that besides ebay (which is quite bad in EU when compared to what you can find in US) I don't have much option. I would love to be able to buy 2nd hand or semi-damaged repairable gear.

author: jogri
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 08:23:31 pm
content: Quote from: GTheis on November 24, 2020, 07:03:24 pmPatience is a virtue... You can get a lot of really cheap stuff on ebay if you are willing to put in some time and effort. Best way would be to create some ebay filters for brands (HP, Agilent, Tek, Keithley, etc) and just search for new offers every few days. You will find quite a few broken and cheap items, just keep an eye on them and try to snipe the auctions. Not a fast way, but it will get you a really nice setup in a year or two. ebay-kleinanzeigen.de is also a GREAT source of test equipment if you speak german, you'll find quite a few people that don't have the slighest idea how valuable their stuff is there (works in both ways).If you want to repair things: Start with PSUs from well-known brands, you only need a DMM to troubleshoot them in most cases and they can be sold for a nice profit.Btw, buying stuff from the states is also an option, just expect shipping costs in the order of 1-200€ (and import taxes). Can be worthwile for stuff like SMUs or other expensive and kinda rare equipment.But in the end, it boils down to one question: Would you rather spend more time or more money?

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 08:33:40 pm
content: One problem I can see for novice using used hear is that when something doesn't work it can be hard to figure out if it's operator's error or that of equipment.

author: GTheis
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 10:27:31 pm
content: Quote from: jogri on November 24, 2020, 08:23:31 pmWill surely do.Quote from: jogri on November 24, 2020, 08:23:31 pmThis seems a great idea tbh, I need now to discover brands and most probably create filters around ebay to find stuff

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 10:37:53 pm
content: It all depends on what you're trying to do and what tools you can find within your budget. Growing up I didn't have a lot of money and gear was very, very expensive compared to now so I got by with what I could get. Until I was in my early 20s so the first 10+ years of my hobby I used a cheap firestick soldering iron, a basic multimeter, an ancient vacuum tube Tek scope I got at a garage sale and basic hand tools. When I needed a function generator I built something basic with a 555 IC. These days you can get a lot of really cool stuff for very little money. A temperature controlled soldering station is a must, and a vacuum desoldering tool is very useful if you're doing any kind of repair or rework on through hole stuff. An oscilloscope was once an extravagant luxury for a hobbyist but now you can get quite a capable instrument for a few hundred bucks. I would suggest you think of some projects you want to work on and then work on a list of tools and supplies you'll need to accomplish those projects rather than trying to buy a bunch of gear and then figure out what to do with it all. You don't have to get it all at once either, and once you get something you are not stuck with it for life. Maybe you pick up an old scope for cheap, use it a while and then decide you want to upgrade, you can sell the old one to somebody else usually for around what you paid for it.

author: markce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 11:47:00 pm
content: I could give you some pointers.I've been buying new and used equipment for 10+ years, slowy building a home (hobby) lab.Most used equipment I found on marktplaats.nl, which is the local ebay. Be prepaired to repair almost every piece of used equipment. Find a service manual before buying.. I ended up buying less complex equipment on the used market.A DSO, ArbSG and LA were new. I value guarantee and support so look at eleshop.nl fe, cheap and pick-up in Eindhoven.Less essential equipment like LCR meter and digital thermo meter I bought on ebay. Not much to save in buying these used.To start: a DSO new, a power supply used (Delta-Elektronica/Philips), a signal generator used, usb logic analyser new, etc.

author: GTheis
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 11:55:36 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 24, 2020, 10:37:53 pmYeah. Initially I am thinking in 555s and sensor networks (temp, humidity, co2) for my "house" (which is a 20m2 apartment). Maybe some DC-DC converters because they would not require very high frequencies. To do so I would imagine the initial setup would be PSU, Scope, AWG. I can keep everything on a breadboard for starters if soldering+pcb prouction seems expensive (though the soldering station I thought on getting is ~40€).Then this boils down to the scope. I can set a timeframe to save money and buy everything for this initial setup which would be something between 400-700€ depending on quality of the things. The OWON XDS3104E seems very nice but I saw some bad reviews from OWON products. It has an AWG with it that goes up to 25 MHz which should be fine for a year or so at least for me. The 100 MHz bandwidth should truly be enough for my hobbyist projects (I can see myself looking back and laughing at this though).I would then like to see between three scopes to be sure my decision is good. FFT is important for me (which is what made me not want to get the Rigol). But the three scopes would beOWON XDS3104E - 500€Siglent SDS1104X-E - 500€ (would need a recommendation of AWG to pair this with)Rigol DS1054Z - 400€ (would hack to 100 MHz and also need the AWG recommendation)The power supply I would get most probably a NPS-1601 from aliexpress (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000350947747.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.77fb5162Ildt70&algo_pvid=252c4960-010a-425e-bc9f-620badf1958f&algo_expid=252c4960-010a-425e-bc9f-620badf1958f-0&btsid=2100bb4916062619393536279ee2ca&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_) which was recommended by a friend.The idea is I have time to save for a brand new equipment. In between I keep searching for used ones.

author: GTheis
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 11:58:12 pm
content: Quote from: markce on November 24, 2020, 11:47:00 pmThanks! I've found eleshop already and the main issue for markplaats for me so far was the language lol. The Eindhoven pick-up is handy as I am living here

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2020, 12:04:19 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 24, 2020, 10:37:53 pmYou're from USA I envy you guys (im a good way).Thats the paradise land for hobbiests of ANY kind, you can have just anything you want, everything is affordable.I'm from Brazil here sucks. A 500USD equipment usd after taxes costs 770USD in todays currency R$4200, which is about half month earnings of a reasonalby well paid engineer.I'd say, go slow, very slow, your local ebay and similar.For PSUs look for vintage HP 63xx, 62xx and so on, the basics are 30V to 50V x 1,5A is a good to go.Scopes are cheap and acessible, plenty of choicesGet a T12 welding iron, cheap and very very very good.Some fine, flat and curved tweezersA scalpelHave some wiring avaible, enamel, strip some control cables and save the wiresBuy some perfboards and SMD (soic/ssop/tqfp) adaptersMake a parts inventory, get a pack of 5ml eppendorfs, great to store 0403/0603/0805 if you can't get sample books (and faster too)Get a cheap $8 saleae clone logic analyzer, HANDY HANDY!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2020, 12:06:56 am
content: Quote from: GTheis on November 24, 2020, 11:55:36 pmSDG1032X.Both these instruments can be 'improved' if necessary.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2020, 01:45:24 am
content: you need to focus on a project area because trying to be broad with that low a budget will not get you very far.TSP is the last thing you want to focus on because its basically a equipment digest without a project focus.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2020, 02:32:16 am
content: For that stuff you probably don't need a AWG, my function generator does support arbitrary waveforms but so far I've never found a need for that feature. You probably don't even need a scope, it's certainly nice to have but if I were working with digital sensors I'd get a USB logic analyzer before a scope, they're a whole lot cheaper. A scope would be next on my list after the little logic analyzer.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2020, 02:42:56 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 25, 2020, 02:32:16 amUntil you go into digital then FG's just don't offer the features especially when you're playing with timing and glue logic. Yeah you can make auxiliary circuits to help but it's simpler when it's all in one box.Still have my old Philips FG and thought it was sold to a chap that was looking for a cheap FG but he wouldn't even shell out NZ$50 (~$40US) for it so it went back in the garage where it still sits unused today.

author: GTheis
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2020, 11:20:08 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 25, 2020, 02:32:16 amThe thing is I'll use analog sensors as well. The first real project I intend to work on is an automatic control for my house. Ideally I would have CO2, temperature, humidity, soil moisture (for plants), and tbd to be honest. This would then be probably connected to a Raspberry Pi and a webserver or so I could access. These sensor would have actuators (i.e: automatic watering for the plants). That why I imagine I would need a scope and AWG to test/debug some Op amps and actuators.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2020, 01:24:15 pm
content: Quote from: GTheis on November 24, 2020, 11:55:36 pmThese power supplies are nice if you want a lot of power but these are switching PSUs which are generally not very suitable for development work. The noise will swamp the signal on an oscilloscope.A simple function generator to begin with is the Feeltech FY9600. It is cheap and better value for money compared to the lower end ones from Rigol or Siglent. If you are worried about warranty: buy 2 and you still come out on top money wise.Edit: also consider the GW Instek GDS-1054B instead of the SDS1104X-E. Also around the 500 euro ballpark but it has individual channel controls, hackable to 100MHz, better memory management (see Dave's zoom out video), easier to operate due to more buttons next to the screen and last but not least it has input filtering which can be useful to isolate certain frequency bands (or just get rid of noise).

author: markce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2020, 01:40:03 pm
content: QuoteYou definitly want a scope. It's your eyes in the elektronics world and you want color, not just B/W (logic analyser)!A cheap function generator used as general AC source is enough to start with. I would save money for a decent AWG later.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2020, 02:07:54 pm
content: Quote from: markce on November 25, 2020, 01:40:03 pmYea I agree with that. If I would be allowed to use only one instrument, that would definitely be oscilloscope. For me it's by far the most important tool. In a pinch you can use it as voltmeter and even poor man's spectrum analyzer (most modern scopes can do FFT to some degree).So I would suggest to pick a scope first, and then see what else can you afford with remainder of your budget.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2020, 02:43:47 pm
content: Hello there:Started as EE in 68 and accumulating test gear in 1970.Have huge lab, and service manual collection.I had attended amateur (ham) radio flea markets, LOTs of fine vintage test gear, TEK, HP, etc. since 1980.http://www.arrl.org/hamfests-and-conventions-calendarOne old friend went silent keyLots from epay since 2000 but must be very careful.Consider for scopes TEK 2245 etc and 2465BConsider for modular test TEK TM500 series.http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/Main_PageBest soldering irons: Hakko Japanese, esp old 936Metcal SP-200GOOD LUCK!JonPS: AVOID CHINESE JUNK if you plan to continue it future years.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2020, 02:45:19 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 25, 2020, 01:24:15 pmIs GW Instek GDS-1054B really hackable to 100 MHz only with software?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/possible-gw-instek-gds-1000b-hack/msg3306636/#msg3306636

author: GTheis
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2020, 03:19:14 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 25, 2020, 02:45:19 pmTo add to this, isn't the SDS1104X-E also hackable to 200 MHz perhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2020, 06:07:02 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 25, 2020, 02:45:19 pmAs far as my information goes the hardware is limited to a 100MHz bandwidth.