Ignore the FCC for low quantities? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: delicado
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2016, 02:56:29 pm
content: HiI see that often commercial radio devices go through EMC tests and attain FCC approval. Do all commercial radio devices need to be approved by the FCC though? According tohttps://www.fcc.gov/oet/ea/importation:The radio frequency device is being imported in quantities of 4,000 or fewer units for testing and evaluation to determine compliance with the FCC Rules and Regulations, product development, or suitability for marketing. The devices will not be offered for sale or marketed.It seems that if fewer than 4000 units are imported, FCC approval is not required if the imported units are not resold. So if an Amazon seller ships <4000 non-FCC approved radio devices directly from China to a US customer, so long the customer won't resell the device, it'd still be legal. Am I reading it right?"Determining... suitability for marketing" sounds quite broad...Any thought appreciated.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2016, 03:18:07 pm
content: You're being too creative in your reading. Clearly, the intent was to allow an OEM to import up to 4000 RF devices for testing and evaluation. They can't be sold, they can't be marketed and, I suspect, they can't be operated in the wild without compliance testing (probably written in another paragraph). Operating in a screen room is probably allowed. But there is no way that paragraph can be interpreted to mean that 4000 non-compliant units can be turned loose in the US.Of course the Chinese will take the approach that they don't know what happens to their non-approved device after it leaves the factory nor do they have any control over it. So, the FCC can't reach that far back in the chain. But they can definitely go after the importer and/or OEM if the units hit the street without approval.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2016, 03:36:27 pm
content: What's great about the plethora of devices out there is, if they're direct sale (like eBay), then the importer is the buyer, and might very well be buying them for evaluation.Nevermind that they aren't professionals, and have no intention (or even idea) to bring them to a test lab to complete the next logical step!On a related subject, I know of a few companies that have released products in quantities of thousands, over some decades, that easily blow the limits.FCC only has enough budget to prosecute the most annoying ones, so a great many things go unseen.FCC is currently most busy with defining wireless networks and bands. They have very little time to spend on general policing of the airwaves.Typically, cases are brought on behalf of amateur radio operator complaints.I suppose if you want to get away with it, try to make sure your products are operated well away from HAM stations. (Which have publicly registered locations, so this is a free and fair strategy. If also a strategy which admits guilt.)The typical cost of lab cert is on the order of $5-10k. The typical cost of an FCC fine is the same, if it escalates to that level. Legal fees (if lawyers need to get involved) are equal or greater. (C&D letters go to the end user first, so there would be a knock-on effect of lost sales, if word gets out.) You might train the service department to handle EMC complaints for customers, which might be a comparable operating cost spread over time.Nothing wrong with any of these approaches, from a business perspective. You can cost everything. It's up to you if it's worth it or not.Tim

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2016, 05:53:01 pm
content: Just move to Europe. You say "this device complies with all applicable laws and standards", whack on CE sticker, and start selling.Then when it starts raining lawsuits, you settle for a small amount. And continue business.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2016, 07:11:35 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on September 26, 2016, 05:53:01 pmDepends where you are. In the UK it could be 3 months in prison. In practice, it is probably a fine of a few thousand and a mandatory product recall and replacement (that it the bit that will be expensive). This assumes it is EMC you have failed and there were no safety implications (i.e no-one got hurt). If there were then it is prison for corporate manslaughter.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2016, 05:33:38 am
content: Better make sure you are part 13 compliant anyways! FCC is just one of those cost of doing business things. For one man and micro business designs I recommend people use FCC lic granted RF modules. Totally available and for reasonable prices now. When you can buy a fully functional FCC licensed wifi module or cell phone module for not that much, why would you design your own?

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2016, 06:18:16 am
content: ISM bands are deliberately unlicensed. You still need to follow the EIRP rules: do the SparkFun kits actually exceed those?

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2016, 06:30:50 am
content: Since the Adafruit and Sparkfun kits are usually more or less direct implementations of the reference design from the chip vendor, which is designed to minimise any risk of exceeding the regulations, the risk of their being outside the limits is extremely low.The regulations are in my mind too strict for those cases... there should be an exception for slavish implementations of a reference design, much as there is for using a module. Something along the lines of "this section of the PCB follows the already certified reference design and the rest of the PCB follows good practice".

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2016, 06:34:26 am
content: Never ignore it. Develop with the target to be compliant. Makes it so much less likely to have any problems down the line.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2016, 07:20:27 am
content: These certifications and laws can be seen as a engineering ethics guide. For large companies they are mandatory since, well, shareholders don't care about ethics that much.Eg:see this thread.If you develop your product to work reliably instead of sell reliably. You'll be fine. Unless you're doing automotive, railway or aerospace. (military does not care)

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2016, 09:38:59 am
content: It depends what you want to do with the devices?If you are using them for development then they should be fine as long as you keep the quantity low, the final device however will need approval to be able to sell.If you bought 300 RF modules from Ebay or Amazon China and they say FCC approved then you are not to know any difference really, and can claim ignorance, not sure how far it would get you however in a court of law.Same with EIRP, there is a theoretical limit, many ignore.In Europe, FCC isn't relevant, it's a US thing, you are going to want to look at the ETSI ruling for UK / Europe.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2016, 06:48:54 pm
content: Terminology is being woefully confused here. "Unlicensed" refers to the operator. The MANUFACTURER must ensure RF and EMI compliance no matter if it is an unlicensed or a licensed band.And while US regulatory surveillance of illegal RF emitters is nearly non-existent, affected parties in those bands can detect and will report illegal RF emissions.Please do us all a favor and don't build/export/import illegal radio devices. It just makes life difficult.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2016, 06:54:23 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on September 27, 2016, 07:20:27 amWhat makes you think the military does not care? The last thing they want is for a servo system to go wild, or an EMC "blip" causing a weapon to fire (that wreaked a USS Forrestal in 1967 and killed over 100 sailors). They also want everything to be "stealth" - not just to radar but to reduce any unwanted emissions that could lead to the unit being detected.Quote from: LabSpokane on September 27, 2016, 06:48:54 pmNearly but not non-existent - a few years ago a brand new shopping center was prevented from opening 2 days before the "grand opening" as the tills were emitting and jamming some emergency radio frequencies.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2016, 07:40:24 pm
content: Quote from: Neilm on September 27, 2016, 06:54:23 pmIf that occurred in the US, FCC action almost assuredly began with a complaint from the spectrum users (first responders) when their radios did not work. It likely did not originate from the FCC doing spectrum surveillance.The US system is based on trust, with all the good and bad that comes with it.Those that really need to bring a radio to market without the technical and financial wherewithal to certify should use pre-certified modules. Cheap? No. But the market exists for good reason. The list prices are horrible, but there is always room for volume negotiation.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2016, 08:04:08 pm
content: Quote from: Neilm on September 27, 2016, 06:54:23 pmNot what I meant. Does not count. Different mindset. Stuff is allowed to fail, everything is redundant.A bit of emc noise? Just whack it in a metal box and change repair manuals. Projects often span multiple standards releases.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 01:13:17 am
content: I would steer away from supporting a deliberate attempt to fly under the radar. The rules are in place to allow legitimate activity - and I don't believe trying to flog unproven items to end users by limiting the numbers comes anywhere near the intent.If your product falls within requirements, you might get away scot-free - unless someone blows the whistle on you.If it operates outside those parameters, then your risk increases the further from 'acceptable' you deviate - and if you haven't had any independent testing done, you will not have the foggiest idea of just how good or bad it really is. Will it be like a candle in the RF spectrum ... or a lighthouse?In practice, you may get away with running the gauntlet, but - in theory - you are asking for trouble... IMHO.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 02:16:34 am
content: Like I said, risk is risk.I would, of course, never suggest anyone do such a thing. The spirit of the rules is clear. The moral of the situation is also clear: airwaves are a common resource, and one mustn't commit the tragedy of the commons.But at the same time, law is law. Law is amoral. Law has very realcostsassociated with it. The FCC explicitly leviesmonetaryfines for violations. Legal proceedings cost money, lab time costs money, and short term vs. long term sales are precisely as accountable (or not, as the case may be).So, I certainly don't recommend it, but a choice is a choice, whether moral, criminal or monetary.Tim

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 03:40:28 am
content: (Law is my name, not my profession. So this is a layman's opinion)If it cannot be profitable when made right (ie: FCC certified), it is probably not a good business bet.A lawyers costs a few hundred dollars an hour. Federal offense can some time result in triple damage. Fine is God knows how much. If it is frame as not an honest mistake but a willful reckless disregard of the law, who is to say such violation cannot result in some jail time. So, I think if/once you are caught, whatever profit that might have been made will be in fines and legal expense - perhaps many times over.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 03:54:05 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on September 28, 2016, 03:40:28 amAs much as I dislike lawlessness, it's worth noting that virtually every FCC enforcement I've looked up, was civil, not criminal in nature. Also, if it is an honest mistake or the violator has limited means, the fines are usually reduced accordingly. The FCC's enforcement behavior is largely measured and practical. They are not out to destroy people's lives and livelihoods, they just don't want unlicensed interferers cluttering up the airwaves.The likelihood of being clapped in irons for non-malicious RF interference is low.Personally, I loathe the high costs of certification, but the reality is, those simply are the costs of doing the job right and playing nicely together as a society with a shared resource. If there was a shortcut, someone would have found it by now.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 01:33:23 pm
content: I agree though, the cost of compliance is very high. If you build one small widget and want to sell 100 of them at $10, kiss goodbye to several thousand dollars in compliance costs. Such compliance costs destroy innovation for the little man. The government here has no allowance for this scenario.But regulations are there for a good reason. In Australia, it is illegal to sell electronic consumer products that do not bear the C-Tick or RCM compliance mark. But our government lost control where anyone can import crap from China on eBay, no questions asked. I can walk into most Chinese $2 shops here and buy electrical goods without any regulatory compliance at all. The government lacks the ability (or intelligence) to enforce the regulations. It is this government that has allowed flammable insulation imported from China to line the walls of high rise buildings here in Melbourne, and the time bomb called Infinity Cable to be imported from China and installed in around 40,000 houses. A friend of mine had part of his home burn down due to a non-compliant imported bathroom fan.