Big Brother air monitoring. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2024, 05:08:36 pm
content: So I got my AirGradient working properly and the data logged and graphed.Straight up, obviously it immediately tells me nearly to second when I smoke a cigarette. If I smoke it in the room it goes nuts. If I smoke it in the furthest corner of the house, downstairs with the window open and the extractor turn on full... it still sees it!That was not the surprising thing.The fact it also shows me exactly when I am drinking alcohol. It shows when I open a can of beer. It even shows when I open an over fizzy can and have a foam break over.It can detect the cat is the only occupant in the room!**(Rather I can detect that with data analysis, that the room is not empty when I'm asleep at night).None of this should be surprising if you think it through. The sensors are sitting 3 feet from me and they are "professional grade" sensors of course the VoC sensor sees the alcohol vapour and of course the PM sensor see the smoke.For discussion. Consider if this was a cloud platform device you had bought. You get to use the app, they get to enrich and sell your data.Most people would scoff. "Ha! What do I care, it's only my air quality figures from a stupid device."My response: "No. No sir it is not 'just' that, not even close." From a single sensor of this calibre in the house I can tell a whole LOT more than my air quality.Seriously.... today, VoC index was 1. All day. Not a single value above 1. Within a few seconds of my opening a beer, BANG, 60. As I am on the 3rd (and signing off)... it has not returned tozeroone. I looked back at last Fridays beers and... exactly the same thing. In fact the only real readings for VoC come from that alcohol vapour.Obviously not a solid indicator, but I might breath on it tomorrow morning and see what it thinks.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2024, 05:14:51 pm
content: *Disclaimer.I am not saying that AirGradient are or would do this. I have had a very good relationship with AirGradient and their support. That's not the point. Whether those who own airgradient now or in the future wish to do this with the data collected.... is still not my point.I am not saying anyone "out there" is doing this.However, as a security conscious developer I am bound by the rule, "If it can be exploited it will be exploited." YRMV. (risk).

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2024, 03:46:06 pm
content: "If it can be exploited it will be exploited"Usually avoided by keeping things local only, air gap the system to have no web connectivity at all. The data which you appear to be able to derive from those sensors could indeed provide a dangerous capability for IngSoc and the Inner Party (or whichever 3 or 4 letter agency uses Orwell's work as a blueprint this week, usually all such b*stards) if collected in a centralised corporate database which they could hack or threaten the owners to gain acess to, but if the data is taken locally and stored solely locally, it isn't much of a risk. It would appear the data wouldn't, locally, tell a locally present snooper anything they couldn't already see through a window or hear by pressing a microphone against glass.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2024, 11:34:12 am
content: I'm sure it can be exploited, but the question is why would anyone bother? If there's money to be made, then it's highly likely someone will, otherwise, why would anyone bother?

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2024, 01:03:00 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 21, 2024, 11:34:12 amThe first area to affect you financially via this style of exploit is insurance.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2024, 02:16:57 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on April 21, 2024, 01:03:00 pmX2.The second could be looking for illegal drug use and/or manufacture. If the monitor can detect alcohol and tobacco smoke, you have to wonder what other chemical signatures it can detect.A third exploit might be looking for and reporting the presence of gun powder or explosives and also detecting smoke from a fired gun cartridge. You know the mantra; "If it saves even one child, it's worth it" (and the Hell with your Rights!).

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2024, 07:20:07 pm
content: My own usage was much less controversial. I made it automate the extractor I installed for ventilation, running the air conditioner exhaust through and if I'm doing a lot of soldering I can drop a duct down to the desk.Right now if the 10 micron PM rises above 50 or the CO2 rises above 800 the extractor comes on.My point was wider. Many people install cloud based monitoring equipment. A lot of people don't think, what "else" could that be used for? And whom else could be used by?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2024, 07:44:59 pm
content: By landlords in appartments and houses for all sort of compliance monitoring.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2024, 07:30:21 am
content: Dyson is the same, but I'm not too concerned. I don't smoke so it would be difficult to establish anything more than how dusty (or not) my house is.Of course things like VoCs can be from multiple sources; Cleaning products, cologne/perfume, air fresheners etc...Quote from: Bud on April 21, 2024, 07:44:59 pmI would think this is a good thing. If you rent out your house, and you've stated that it's a non-smoking house, then whoever is living there should respect that. It's not their property. Getting the cigarette smoke smell out of anything is near impossible.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2024, 08:16:10 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 22, 2024, 07:30:21 amCooking steak sets off the PM sensor and my extractor in the office. I'm not "fixing it". The extractor removed the smell of steak from the office before it finisihed and shut off.However, this highlights a point with this kind of implied surveillance. Accuracy. If you believe all spikes in PM are from smoking, you could accuse someone of smoking when they don't smoke at all.For example, if one of you lives in an apartment where the landlord wishes to state "No Smoking" and his PM and VoC sensors go off every day multiple time... because you were soldering... you get kicked out for smoking.Worse when they sell that data to your insurance company, your health insurance doubles because they now think you are a smoker.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2024, 08:49:08 am
content: I get it but insurers and big companies aren't ones to make assumptions about people's policy based on some sketchy data. If your policy does, maybe it's time to switch insurers. Also, I'm not sure what it's like in other parts of the world, but there are strict rules about fairness in contracts and codes of conduct in Australia that all insurers follow. They can't just do whatever they want because they are greedy for money. There is oversight and guidelines.I'm with Qantas insurance, and even with the data they collect from their app specifically says it has no bearing and is not fed back to the insurance since of things (yes, I read the privacy policy and product disclosure statement).Whilst insurers deal with "risk", data from an air purifier isn't one of them, at least not without your consent and they certainly wouldn't be drawing the nexus between "this air is filthy" to "this person smokes".Notwithstanding any of this, I always say, don't buy household products that require the internet to perform its core function. Fridges, microwaves, blenders, air conditioners, vacuums, washers and dryers don't need the internet. If they do, they're a shit product.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2024, 01:00:08 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 22, 2024, 08:49:08 amIn some limited cases I can see justifiable internet usage for otherwise "dumb" devices.From your list, microwaves would be on that list. The reason is simply that nobody knows how to cook with a microwave without specific instructions for nearly every single product. Most instructions printed on packets are void of specific information about the microwave type, design or power handling. Most instructions printed by the microwave manufacturer are vague and do not apply directly to any product/substance you might microwave.So the ability to scan a bar-code or take a picture of what you are microwaving and having some AI come up with as close to ideal cooking sequence, varying power levels, auto standing time or even utilising a built in halogen grill to brown etc. etc. When new products get added to the data base everyone benefits.I am all for this. However. The current global adherence to "ethics", "privacy" and "personal security" are far, far, far behind the actual technological abilities. Like NASA found to their detrement and 7 people lost their lives, ignoring the engineering principle of "If it can happen, it eventually will happen", the way data is used by services providing the above will be unethical, privacy invasive and result in a genuine loss of future security for the individual owner.If money can be made now or later and if the laws are not CONCRETE and well established, they will be exploited and it will be nearly impossible to remove it all later.The more information you currently "radiate" out there and trust me it is radiating, the more you are training the world to impersonate you, attack you, disregard you, impair you. All just so your microwave pizza is cooked better!.So, I would be very interested in a microwave with an local API I can use to drive an ethical, free, open source version of the above so that each individual can retain control of their own data.For the vast majority of individuals their choice is basically complete acceptance or complete abstinence of partaking in the "smart world". I gather about 95% have for for complete acceptance and most just don't even blink before ticking ACCEPT ALL.The only plus side is, it's going to suck for so, so many people that nobody is going to care about "surviving" unscathed. In fact it is very likely to turn against those who's lives are not publicly open on platforms. The larger society will become afraid of the reclusive and pitchforks and town square stonings will ensue (stretching the analogy). <- inspired by Ben Elton's Blind Faith novel.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2024, 01:14:24 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on April 22, 2024, 08:16:10 amFalse positives and false negatives are already a problem, particularly in mandatory drug testing. Fortunately, or Un-fortunately, most people that are falsely detected have no legal right to challenge the results and rarely have the money to do so. I personally know of a local police detective that got a false positive on a drug test and it RUINED his career. Even after he was tested and cleared by the FBI; and after they were able to prove that the original testing company had an error rate of nearly 40%.Mandatory testing or any testing without your prior knowledge and consent isn't as simple as most people think and may have serious implications FAR beyond what you ever imagined.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2024, 01:29:28 pm
content: QuoteThat's OK until they all start doing it because they see how beneficial it is to the initial one, and that there's no pushback (since anyone can 'switch insurers', no-one creates a stick about it).

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2024, 02:12:56 pm
content: Louis Rossman has been ranting about this a lot recently, mostly in regards to modern cars.Almost every new car these days contains some form of online "phone home" data system. The manufacturers claim it is to detect early wear and tear and help the owner identify faults before they occur. Yaddayadda.There have however already been several cases of the data being used for other purposes. Louis tells the full story of the researchers who were able to detect people "shagging" in the back seat ... for example.I am not quite sure on the insurance position, but I know there are insurance companies who are piloting "self installed black boxes" into any car. To get cheaper insurance they sign a contract stating they will not trigger certain tolerances on the box. Such as speeding, harsh acceleration or braking.That data is also available from the vehicle owners after you first rent it... oh, I mean buy it.... no... thats not right either.This is even before we bring AI hallucinations into the picture.Other insurance "devices" are just a advertising scam. Aviva Drive app. I installed it on my phone and went paragliding. It said my driving was very smooth and gentle. Nothing about my "car" going vertical at 2m/s. Nothing about it appeared to depart and return to the top of a mountain or anything, just offered me discount insurance.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2024, 10:51:22 pm
content: Yes. Of course. Just avoid any cloud-based device if you can. Their whole underlying business model is to make money off your data, one way or another. On top of that, leaks do happen. Quite frequently.It's become harder and harder to find such devices that are not cloud-based, though. Air monitoring, even just thermometers. But that's when being an EE helps. If you can't find anything that's only local, you can make your own. Something I do recommend.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2024, 10:55:44 pm
content: predatory industry wants subsI feel violated by all the stuff that wants my smart phone and internet to basically do nothing usefulanyone else been alot less interested in gadgets now that its "hi, we can sell you this malfunctioning plastic shit that will break in 6 months so we can train our AI. this time it has a slim RECTANGLE shape!!" ?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2024, 03:38:53 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on April 22, 2024, 01:14:24 pmI'd say this highlights a glaring issue with the system in your country, not just how testing is conducted. That kind of crap just wouldn't fly here. Same with testing drivers of motor vehicles for either alcohol or drugs (which I've done many times, the testing, not drugs). The burden of proof is high... very high, and even then the courts let them off half the time.I'm not suggesting that all testing is 100% infallible, things oral fluid tests (for example) are used as an indicator only. The process here looks something like this:1. Person is tested with a handheld device to indicate the possible presence of a substance.2. If positive, the person undergoes a second test using much more sophisticated equipment to confirm presence and concentration of substance.3(a). If positive again, legal process is commenced. The original testing fluid is sent for lab analysis for confirmation.3(b). If negative, the first test is deemed invalid and no further action is taken at this time. Testing fluid is sent away for lab analysis.4. The test subject has the legal right to have a doctor take blood, for the purpose of further, independent testing.No one, and I mean no one should lose their job or driving privilages based on an initial indication.

author: Geoff-AU
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2024, 04:40:48 am
content: Quote from: paulca on April 19, 2024, 05:08:36 pmAt some point it becomes unsettling, yes.Honourable companies are not obligated to stay that way, either.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2024, 12:13:58 pm
content: I wonder if there are any studies around deliberate data tracers.The way you would give someone a radioactive tracer to drink so you can then watch it propagate through their body. Just for data.What I would be looking for is a way to visualise how far, how fast and how diversely the data "radiates" ... or does it (more likely) arc and randomly traverse long links rather than spread evenly... does it "grow" outward like fungus?The marker can be something clever and mathematical that will survive attempted redaction etc.The hardest part is getting the "scan" data of where your data has got to.Ironically, the best reliable source for that data is Tor and the black market. This would (maybe) make the study taboo?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2024, 01:09:06 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on April 21, 2024, 01:03:00 pmSome insurance companies already charge a hefty extra premium for smokers, that includes the health insurance plan I get through work. (They apparently offer a program to quit smoking included in the extra premium, don't know the details as I have never smoked.) I think it's a good idea, the nonsmokers shouldn't have to pay for the costs of smoking. How it is determined is by self reporting, with threat of legal action or having claims be denied being the deterrent to lying about it.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2024, 01:28:41 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 23, 2024, 01:09:06 pmI guess they'd look closely at someone with lung cancer or throat cancer and if the doctor reported a likely cause of smoking they'd not pay out.An interesting counter-example is pension annuities which pay out more for people who smoke (because you're likely to die sooner.) How can they prove you smoke? Is once a month enough to meet the standard of being "a smoker"? If it meant an extra £500 a month (which it did in one example I chose) then, heck, it almost seems worth it, provided you can keep it to once a month!!