Bread Board Backers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Omega Glory
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2024, 01:58:14 am
content: I recently watched this comprehensive review of different brands of breadboards:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKQJhe9n_ug.The conclusion was that BusBoard produces high quality boards, but I haven't found any with that metal backing plate with binding posts that you often see. I was wondering if anyone knew where one could buy backing boards with binding posts to mount these breadboards on.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2024, 02:51:52 am
content: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/are-breadboards-from-cpcfarnell-(uk)-any-good/25/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/proskit-breadboards/msg5285377/#msg5285377It's said you can get BusBoard from digikey/farnell. IDK, but it's said they have the best bang for the buckSecond linked thread points to some breadboards from ProsKit, said to hace phosphorous bronze contacts. They have backing plates with binding posts. But IIRC those backplates have been always plastic.Probably the best ones I know of are K&H, first ones I had. Also had plastic backplates with binding posts. Nothing has been like that until I got Wisher. You can get them witk bacplates/binding posts.Being in the US, you shouldnt have any problems buying any of these, except probably K&H. I dont know, maybe they are out of business.If I could, would get K&H. Wisher is as good and easily available here so that's what i buy right now. BusBoard, perhaps I would buy if I need to put a Digikey purchase over €50 to get DDP incoterms.Any other than that will probably dissapoint you. Don't skimp on breadboards.Anyway, having those binding posts is a bit of luxury, I'm sure you know it

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2024, 03:36:05 am
content: why not just get a bit of aluminum for the backplate, couple of holes for the binding post ,4 rubber feet ,job done.For extra bling put a 90 degree bend in the plate and make a selection of holes to give you somewhere to mount switches, pots etc

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2024, 09:55:58 am
content: Quote from: tatel on January 27, 2024, 02:51:52 amThe OP would benefit from thinking about all the points in that thread, including the references given.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2024, 12:19:17 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 27, 2024, 09:55:58 amTwo thoughts. As tggzzz suggests, reading the posts on breadboards and alternative techniques is instructive. First, as an alternative to your question, why not look athttps://www.assemblyspecialist.com/WebStore/breadboards.htmlwhich has been confirmed as making the 3M boards which are the highest rated.Post breadboarding, the techniques championed by tggzzz and others are interesting and make sense. They show thinking outside the box. I like the dead bug and Manhattan approaches.But for me, the two approaches serve different purposes. GOOD (yeah, I know) breadboards help establish basic skills and even wiring technique. And beginners are less likely to burn up a component.However, it is apparent that once you move into more than single transistor ckts other parameters come into play which the alternative techniques minimize.And the cheap BB strips we bought can be repurposed for permanent or semipermanent ckts where they have been tested to meet the goal.I agree, there is little sense in restricting your tool kit.FWIW, I just ordered a BB from assembly specialist. This thread and the redirects are very helpful.

author: Omega Glory
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2024, 08:51:40 pm
content: Thanks guys! Those are all really good points and sources.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2024, 04:13:04 am
content: the bread board is invaluable for a circuit circuit catagory. Anything slow and analog or digilog that has complex functionality but does not have high SNR requirements (so some high speed circuits are fine) is best initially prototyped on a bread board. I highly do not recommend skipping over them and going to soldering because SOMEONE SOMEWHERE had a problem with a breadboard doing something beyond its capability, or they had a defective unmaintained or damaged breadboard at that.bet you that most people that say its unnecessary will just guess that the 'simple' part of the circuit to them will work and that this part of testing is unnecessary, like its some kind of badge of honorthis is just as worthy a investment as good test leads. Just buy the right type of wire (if you try to skim wire out of some crap then you will may end up as one of the misguided breadboard users that does not value its utility) and buy a few colors and some bending tools or even a jumper kit or 5.and don't put 220's in it unless you make a adapter. And keep in mind you can modify them.Power switches, rail indicator lights, high quality binding posts, binding post networks, screw down solid high quality rubber feet, fuses, high impedance taps and even screw terminals, coaxial adapters, spring clips for irregular tinned wires, are a valid thing to add to a breadboard (easy to screw or double sided tape (clean the surfaces and use good tape) to a larger development board) that exponentially increases its utility into the go-to lab tool for many circuits.For instance you have a subassembly that has soldered wires in the end, that you want to test in a circuit, like a fan or pump or motor. If you have some spring clips anchored to the breadboard with jumper wire, you can easily hook up the fan to it, if its small.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2024, 08:26:04 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on January 30, 2024, 04:13:04 amModern logic is not "slow"; even 1kHz (or 1Hz) signals have UHF and microwave components. Wire inductance is a classic cause of intermittant "unexplainable" errors.Audio circuits (and even "DC" PSU regulators) can oscillate at RF. "Amplifiers oscillate, oscillators won't".Evenifyou have perfectly clean and springy/undeformed breadboards and perfectly clean components, you still have the problems of basic physics. Stray capacitance and (particularly) inductancecause behaviour that a beginner doesn't expect.Ignore the "I don't have problems therefore they don't exist" statements. Doubly so when those people have been using them for years andimpliclyaren't making beginner mistakes any more. experts utilise such effects as an implicit part of their circuit. (The observant will notice "Tektronix blue" in the photo below)Here inductor L70 is the big "bent stirrup" coming from the valve anodes down to the PCB, and L69 is the small hoop of wire under the stirrup. Together they form a transformer -and you move that wire until you have optimum coupling. (Carefully: there's 125V on that stirrup!)

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2024, 08:40:51 am
content: in general a snooty goauld like system lord baal comes to mind when someone tries to discourage a newcommer to electronics from breadboards. I run into people scared to prototype simple stuff that can clearly be made functional on a breadboard because they worry about some crazy RF, leakage, etc issues. instead it stays theoretical in their mind for 6 months before they finally make a circuit board and fail because of circuit board manufacturing issues (it is under estimated how hard it can be to make a correct board just because it takes alot of experience to see your own mistakes before they get etched in china). I heard plenty of totally ludicrous things about how a circuit HAS to be implemented from new people in labs etc. they basically prevent themselves from learning and interacting with circuits because of preposition about signal integrity etc. once you see this kinda stuff in the real world it drives you crazy its like those future people from the movie demolition man. Its not electrical engineering its speculation at a think tank by that point!there is plenty of stuff that won't work on them too well but the amount of capability you get to throw some chips down (possibly soldered to DIP adapters) in a short period of time to just see if something works is basically the fundamental principle of DIY electronics. Not to mention you learn about how circuits mis behave when they have too bad signal integrity if you stumble upon a threshold case.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2024, 09:05:01 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on January 30, 2024, 08:40:51 amThat's not particularly coherent; it is too rushed.Modern electronics is much faster than the stuff we learned on as a kid. What was sufficient the (e.g. TTL computers built using wirewrap) simply doesn't work with modern logic. Recognise that, and act accordingly.When a beginner finds a circuit that "doesn't work", they have difficulty determining whether the failure is due to a poor circuit concept/design or a poor circuit construction. It is easy to remove the "poor circuit construction" from that, so let's do it. Then they can concentrate on the more interesting and useful part: improving circuit concept/design.Too often beginners areunnecesarilydisheartened byavoidableproblems. Let's say a beginner is making a logic circuit with a 1kHz clock frequency. What's the smallest time interval that they need to accomodate in their design and construction? Can't be too difficult at 1kHz, can it?If using ajellybean74lvc1g74 edge triggered flip flop, the data sheet indicates 0.5ns (th)and 1.6ns (tpd). If they simply couple output to input, that gives a mere 1ns margin. Yes, that's equivalent to 8"/200mm of wire, i.e. the length of a typical hookup wire on a solderless breadboard.Oh yes, they also require monotonic clock signals - difficult with an 20-200nH inductor in their ground leads.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2024, 09:44:42 pm
content: Well thats computer systems. I mean op amps, supervisors, monitors.. cheap transistor IC substitutes, the simple stuff (supposedly). Tons of stuff related to battery power systems too (extremely valuable skill now adays to make battery related circuits like charge metering, fault detection, etc).we got a 15MHz XOR gate phase thingy running on a bread board before out of discrete parts. Terrible signal but it worked lol. The IC miniaturizes it by a factor of what 10000?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2024, 10:21:27 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on January 30, 2024, 09:44:42 pmSo you made an xor phase comparator on a solderless breadboard, and the signal was terrible? Sounds like you have a low threshold for success!I have no idea what you might mean by "cheap transistor IC substitutes".But most importantly, you appear to beconstraining use of solderless breadboards for a small subsetof things a beginner might use them for - especially excluding "computers" and logic!In that case it would be more honest and considerate (to inexperienced readers) to explicitly state those constraints.It is better to nudge beginners in the direction of simple, reliable, speedy, and easy prototyping techniques, than it is to mention techniques which have severe limitations with modern components (and even have problems with ancient components).Unless a beginner only implements their circuits in LTSpice, sooner or later they will have to learn to solder. Might as well get them practicing on something simple where pretty joints aren't an issue.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2024, 11:30:51 am
content: Not again…tggzzz, I think maybe it’s been way too long since you were a beginner or had to teach beginners. Breadboards are invaluable for that. They’re not perfect, but they’re not nearly as bad as you make them out to be. All sorts of things work perfectly fine on breadboards, as shown by the gazillions of people who use them.You claim to worry about circuits misbehaving on breadboards “discouraging” beginners, while ignoring the encouragement and experimentation they invite. Soldering is also a skill that must be mastered, and I think you forget that a beginner’s soldering sucks, so they can’t prototype with solder anywhere near as fast (and without damaging components!) as we can.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2024, 12:22:41 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 04, 2024, 11:30:51 amSame misstatements/mistakes lead to same responseQuoteNo, another misstatement.At my local hackspace I've recently taught absolute beginners how to create a 555 timer, manhattan style. By "absolute beginner" I mean "never picked up a soldering iron" and some were coming from an artistic background rather than a STEM background.All successfully completed their construction, within three hours whichincluded a talk/demonstration on how to solder, and alternative construction methods. Most completed it far faster. All appreciated the lessonIncluding alternative methods enables discussion of characteristics and allows people to choose the selection best suited to their task. (Avoids the "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" mindset)So, your contention is, to put it simply, false.QuoteYou are falling into a standard trap: "selection bias". People thathavehad problems andwerediscouraged simply moved onto other things and aren't going to write about it.Analogy: asking people that walk into roads without looking about their experiencesQuoteSoldering isn't difficult and is a generally useful skill - unlike solderless breadboards.I believe in "throwing people off the deep end", but being there to make sure they don't sink. I've always avoided inflatable armbands in swimming pools, and training wheels on bicycles. I see how fast people learn to swim and cycle, and watching the delight on their faces is a joy.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2024, 05:39:07 pm
content: Quote from: watchmaker on January 27, 2024, 12:19:17 pmI still have all of the 3M boards that I bought in the 90s, but when I wanted more, I had to discover Assembly Specialists.Breadboards are a low performance option with excessive parasitic elements, which could be considered a worst case construction method, which means that when I get a circuit working, it only gets easier.QuoteI like the Dead Bug and Manhattan styles for the highest possible performance, but more often use point-to-point on punchboard. I plan on building something like a precision abrasive radial arm saw or sliding table saw for cutting strips and squares of copper clad board to make constant impedance strips and pads which can be attached to a copper clad ground plane. I have been thinking of unlimbering my old printed circuit board design skill and making a set of turreted pads to sell, but I suspect that market is sewn up.Quote from: tggzzz on January 30, 2024, 08:26:04 amI have one of those!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2024, 06:13:56 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 04, 2024, 05:39:07 pmYou used to be able to buy those strips. I was irritated when I tried to find some, only to find out they are no longer made.I've wondered about checking whether the width of self-adhesive copper tape might be suitable, but haven't got around to doing the calculation let alone measurement. The tape adhesive is sometimes weakly conducting, so it would have to be on top of an insulator. for taping up cracks to reduce EMI, or separately for arts-and-craft purposesQuoteI like these: lots of pads for SMD components and the ends of stand through hole wired components, and a solid groundplane on the other side with lots ofunplatedholes so you can connect to the ground plane wherever convenient.http://www.busboard.com/surfacemountpcbscheap iffyou include the cost of your time.I also like a dremel plus dental bur to hand-mill out islands on a solid groundplane plane. Just figure out where you need to plonk a lead, and cut the insulating gap. Fast and easy, but a beginner is unlikely to have a dremel plus bur.QuoteThey are funHopelessly outdated, but fun to look at, and to understand how and why they work (and don't work).They are also a beneficial demonstration (to beginners) that if you understand the fundamentals, you can push the technology to its limits. "Doing more with less", and all that.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2024, 07:23:03 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2024, 06:13:56 pmI do not remember how I ended up with mine. I picked up some replacement Nuvistors for it and the switches needed cleaning. The 500 MHz output is not very good, but the only thing I could really measure it on would be my sampling oscilloscope.Later I picked up a TG501 but I did not finish refurbishing it before I moved and now it is buried in a box somewhere.

author: Omega Glory
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2024, 07:23:42 pm
content: I will say there is one other thing going for breadboards: Ease of reuse of the placed components. When I was a kid, starting out, $5 was a lot of money to me, and I really couldn't afford to solder parts unless I was committed to the design (yes desoldering is a thing, but it was messy for 12 year old me). A little later, when I got a bread board, it really opened me up to experimentation that I wouldn't have attempted before. These were really simple circuits I was working on, like hooking up a comparator to a photo resistor and using it to conditionally light an LED, and such. These days, when I want to prototype something more significant, I'll usually move to soldering on perf board, or throw together a PCB quickly, but it's still nice to have a small breadboard to temporarily test out a component or module in a simple setting. So while a breadboard might have significant disadvantages, I find it helpful to have one around occasionally.One other prototyping method I used as a teen was wire wrapping, which I found a lot more convenient than point to point soldering or breadboarding. I used it when constructing this robot from a book from 1979:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/1970_s-robot/

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2024, 07:53:51 pm
content: Quote from: Omega Glory on February 04, 2024, 07:23:42 pmI too had to cherish new components, due to their cost and scarcity; I still have a few of them, out of sentimentality. I certainly couldn't have afforded a solderless breadboard! One technique "I invented" was to hammer copper nails into wood, and solder components to them. Advantage: the layout was the same as the schematicI had to make do with scavenged components, desoldering them from PCBs. Hence I learned to solder and desolder early. I remember making discrete RTL flip-flops where I didn't have enough of the same value resistors and capacitors, so each flip flop was hand ccrafted. Not everything in the past was goldenWhen I finally had solderless breadboards available, I quickly grew to hate their limitations.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2024, 07:58:09 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 04, 2024, 07:23:03 pmI too had to replace a nuvistor; it was surprisingly cheap. The 3-transistor divide-by-ten circuits were a pain to tune.The 500MHz frequency multiplied from the 10MHz crystal is pushing technology hard, arguably too hard. I guess contemporary transistors had an fTthat was too low to be useful.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2024, 09:20:44 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2024, 12:22:41 pmThere weren’t any statements or mistakes made before you chimed in with your usual objections. Your anti-breadboard crusade is just… bizarre.Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2024, 12:22:41 pmNot a misstatement, only a hypothesis.Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2024, 12:22:41 pmSo what? You taught them how to solder. That’s great. But if you’re teaching circuit theory, and want people to experiment and play around, breadboards have their place.Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2024, 12:22:41 pmBut your way of going about it is to make people fearful of the breadboard, and that’s just not fair, especially for beginners. A useful discussion of suitability meansfairlypresenting the pros and cons of each method, and your anti-breadboard sentiment makes you blind to their advantages. You invariably dismiss them as insignificant or irrelevant, and they’re not, and you similarly ignore the disadvantages of other methods that you prefer.Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2024, 12:22:41 pmI am doing nothing of the sort. Selection bias is a violation of methods to achieve a representative sample; I wasn’t ever claiming to do a sample of any kind, never mind representative, nor any kind of data analysis at all. I said simply that plenty of people build plenty of functional circuits on breadboards, and that is true. I said nothing about successrates.Not that your argument is any more concrete: your belief that countless people have circuits fail due to breadboard problems is also not supported by any kind of qualitative data. We just hear about the occasional problem. We don’t know how many people tried and failed. We also don’t know how many people never tried to assemble a particular circuit on a breadboardbecause their experience taught them it wouldn’t work on it anyway.I ask you to remember that bias is a serious accusation, one you should be hesitant to throw out.Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2024, 12:22:41 pmI disagree that it is useless, and I think it adds useful information to the learning process. But above all, it lets you decouple skills: you can learn or explore circuit design independent of soldering skills. It means you can focus on one thing at a time, which is often a better way to learn.Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2024, 12:22:41 pmAh, so here is the crux of it: “throwing people in the deep end” pedagogy. That often works, but it’s also very frustrating to some people, and simply doesn’t work for all styles of learners. As I see it, your rigidity on the topic of breadboards is an example of you not recognizing or accepting that there are other, valid styles of learning than the one you prefer.As a reminder, I’ve never said that you are wrong about the advantages of various alternative prototyping methods, only that you need to be more accepting of their place on other people’s benches, even if you don’t want them on yours. You need to loosen up your “my way or the highway” mentality that comes across as so dismissive.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2024, 10:00:56 pm
content: and soldering wrecks parts because if you are working you should use sockets as much as possible to keep your chips in tact particularly when they are expensive. If you breadboard you could resocket the chip in a PCB and it will be perfectly reliable. you are getting very specific if a DIP socket is causing you problems. Plenty of high end equipment uses themYou will lose 2.25 $ of passives on a board you don't feel like desoldeering vs $15 if you use a socket and can actually work on electronics instead of syphoning solder all day. Desoldering can be utterly infurating even with the expensive tools. Using sockets is a no brainer.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2024, 10:28:43 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 04, 2024, 09:20:44 pmI accept that it was your hypothesis - a false hypothesis for the reasons I noted.QuoteStrawman argument. This topic is about the relative merits of different construction methods, not about teaching circuit theory.QuoteYoudismiss the problems beginners have with solderless breadboards as "insignificant or irrelevant" (to use your phrase).Which bit of my statement "Including alternative methods enables discussion of characteristics and allows people to choose the selection best suited to their task." do you not understand? (Highlighted above to emphasise the point)IMNSHO (and that of other experinced engineers) beginnersshouldbe very wary of solderless breadboards' problems for the things beginners donowadayswithcontemporarycomponents. Small components and digital logic/MCU components specifically spring to mind, as do components from a store cupboard or with pre-used solderless breadboards.QuoteSelection bias is usually unwitting, and often not recognised by the person making that error.QuoteI remind you that I am discussing beginners experiences, not those of experienced engineers. Experienced engineersoughtto be able to better exploit technology than beginners.My anecdotal experience is seeing too many beginners having unnecessary problems and becoming discouraged.Your "gazillions of people" statement is similarly anecdotal rather than based on numerical data.QuoteSelection bias is usually unwitting.Deliberate selection bias is disreputable, and I have not accused you of that.QuoteEffective use of solderless breadboards requires beginners to think about advanced topics that they are ill-equipped to understand: that wires have inductance, that adjacent wires have mutual capacitance and act as transformers, unexpected feedback paths, contact resistance, etc, etc. Much better to avoid those (as far as possible!), so they can concentrate on their circuit.All those effects are invisible to the naked eye; poor solder joints are easily seen and quickly corrected.Decoupling skills is, as you say, useful. That is best achieved by (1) theoretical understanding of the key points, (2) modelling/simulation of those key points (e.g. using a Spice), (3) constructing and testing a circuit.QuoteYour statement are far more stridently black-and-white than that!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2024, 10:40:33 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 04, 2024, 10:00:56 pmI don't know the context for those statements.The problems caused by sockets in "high end" equipment arelegion; see any of the threads in the "repair" sub-forum! Standard operating practice is to check the power is on, check the PSU voltages and ripple, jiggle all PCBs in their sockets and ICs/transistors in their sockets, check capacitors.You don't "lose" passives after soldering them. You simply desolder them and can reuse them in another prototype. I've been doing that for decades, and have recently reused some components I bought in the 70s!Desoldering components from fully-assembled commercially-produced PCBs is a pain. I know, since many of the components I used as a kid were like that.But desoldering components from a manhattan-style prototype (or similar) is trivial. That's a normal part of circuit reconfiguration while experimenting.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2024, 10:53:01 pm
content: if you get cheap sockets but even a high quality socket is much cheaper then a chip. That is a problem with sockets that are 'economical' for mass production execs profit not machine pin sockets that are still <10% of the price of some chips you can get if purchased new from a electronics distributor.15$ chip and 90 cent socket. Of course you can push your luck with a 5-10 cent tin plated who knows what socket (instead of bronze) from ebayI was excited to save my money to buy some higher end op-amps and such when I barely had any money and they were treated quite well and even then it seems reasonable to use a digikey socket.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2024, 11:35:40 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 04, 2024, 10:53:01 pmYou can get 32-bit MCUs that are much cheaper than a socket.There are well-known problems with IC sockets in test equipment that cost a year's salary to buy. They didn't knowingly use cheap sockets.Sockets are a useful technology when prototyping with through-hole ICs. My latest prototype has one, so I can swap it for a slightly different IC as an experiment. That prototype used manhattan construction around the IC+socket. Here's somebody else's example:Sockets do not preclude manhattan construction techniques; they are complementary. Use the appropriate combination of techniques for the specific prototype being built.IC sockets usually have only a few insertions/removals of IC pins. Solderless breadboards usually have far more insertions of component legs that are larger diameter than IC pins. The large diameter will, over time and insertions, tend to bend the contacts and make the contact worse.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2024, 11:36:47 pm
content: QuoteErm no it weren't ,it was about adding a backing plate to support binding posts.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2024, 11:43:30 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 04, 2024, 11:36:47 pmTrueUnfortunately the "breadboards are best" posters tried to push the point beyond reasonable limits, e.g.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/bread-board-backers/msg5306539/#msg5306539and had to backtrackhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/bread-board-backers/msg5307961/#msg5307961ets ad mauseum

author: Zoli
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2024, 12:38:36 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 04, 2024, 11:36:47 pmMy 2cents: I've added backing plate to my bread boards(see picture); plain steel, to add some magnetic shielding, too.Regarding the arguments: breadboards are developed for thru-hole devices; if you piggy-back SMD, you deserve the troubleshooting hell.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2024, 01:43:50 am
content: they usually work fine on adapters though, its hardly hell outside of a few very specific things

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2024, 03:38:43 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2024, 10:40:33 pmAt some point transistors and ICs became more reliable than the sockets for them, so removing the sockets made equipment more reliable. I like to use machined collet sockets in prototypes and one of a kind assemblies. The edge wipe sockets made by Texas Instruments in the 1970s and 1980s were horribly unreliable.Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2024, 11:35:40 pmLike I wrote earlier, I have some ideas to make Manhattan construction easier and better. The example below is mine from more than 20 years ago, along with recent point-to-point construction.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2024, 04:00:52 am
content: I like mounting extruded heat sink to those proto boards then you can do power electronics just fine under high loadyou just need the kind that slide on a rail. so you can fix on the rail then slide the heatsink on. Or a template to drill with. But with the heat sink that slide on a rail you can use the base as a template to make drill holes. And with the clips instead of bolts there is no alignment problems for mounting parts.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2024, 10:17:00 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 05, 2024, 01:43:50 amSuch adaptors are very useful for small SMD ICs. I keep a stock and use them with whatever construction technique I am using at the time.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2024, 10:21:32 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 05, 2024, 03:38:43 amYes, and yes.All looks sensible: use whatever technique is appropriate for the current project. Looks like some wire-wrap wire in there; I have a lifetime stock

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2024, 04:45:58 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 05, 2024, 10:21:32 amThe wire wrap wire is nice because you can get it in every color. However the magnet wire shown in the second example is even easier to use because the insulation can be easily burnt off with the soldering iron. MWS makes magnet wire with different colors, but I have just been using what I have and will probably never run out.For ease of manufacturing, some low-temperature-grade magnet wire has insulation that can be removed by the heat of soldering. This means that electrical connections at the ends can be made without stripping off the insulation first.https://mwswire.com/about-magnet-wire/

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2024, 06:42:46 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 05, 2024, 04:45:58 pmThe ability to "daisy-chain" connections is appealing. For short connections with wire-wrap wire it is possible to "move" the insulation down the wire to create a solderable section in the middle of the wire.I've never had much "luck" with such burn-thru-insulation wire. ISTR ending up with gunk on the soldering iron tip, but that would have been many decades ago.However, it has to be said that I've never persevered, and may well have been attempting it with "inappropriate" wire types.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2024, 08:23:45 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 05, 2024, 06:42:46 pmI have done that sometimes and it works great. Just apply the soldering iron to the middle of the "solder strippable" magnet wire and the insulation bubbles away leaving tinned copper.QuoteI picked up a box of wire at an estate sale decades ago and it came with a 5 pound spool of "solder strippable" 28 gauge wire which works great. It is especially useful for repairs and bodges because without the insulation of wire wrap wire, it is thinner and holds in place better.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2024, 09:40:48 pm
content: Ah, the old Vero Penwire technique, I'm really surprised to see they are still selling it after all these years...https://verotl.com/verowire-wiring-pen-part-number-79-1732It comes with little 0.1" pitch plastic combs (see link attached pdf) that fit into the board holes and provide a routing guide for the wires. Wrap around the IC pin and solder.We used to use it for prototyping at Racal donkeys years ago. I works best with the hottest (9?) Weller TCP tip (dull red glow under low light!), which was lousy for keeping the tip tinned. The wire also gives off Cyanide fumes when soldering and not great for crosstalk either, although we were using 4000 series logic.It's great for mods - just snap the wire end without removing it (as long as not bussed) and run in another length. No so great for needing rework though, one careless moment would lead to a melted comb and bundle of shorted wires!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2024, 10:26:30 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on February 05, 2024, 09:40:48 pmAch! That rings a bell.I always had disappointing results, but maybe that can be put down to non-red-hot soldering irons, or simplyPEBKACPEBsolderingironAC.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 12:29:21 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on February 05, 2024, 09:40:48 pmThe wire I have easily strips with the standard 700F Weller tips in maybe 5 seconds.I would not mind having some heavier wire with the same insulation, but I have no idea what it is.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2024, 08:00:14 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2024, 10:28:43 pm:::whoosh:::That was the sound of my point going right over your head: selection bias is asampling error, which means one must be attempting to create a representative sample. But I never claimed to be attempting that, and on the contrary, expressly told you that it’s not. (Nor are your claims based on one either, and that’s ok.)My statement is simply this: many people use breadboards successfully, and there is ample evidence to support this.That’s it.Your attitude is one of them being so unreliable and unpredictable as to make them effectively useless, and I think that’s an unfair characterization, and one you make with dishonest arguments, for reasons I’ve already explained in more detail than you deserve (given the rotten attitude you exhibit).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2024, 09:39:13 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 08, 2024, 08:00:14 pmSo you are knowingly creating/propagating misleading stats? Unimpressive(Actually your statements don't hold up in the context that you have snipped)QuoteMany people haveunnecessaryproblems using solderless breadboards, problems that can easily be avoided using other techniques. I don't care if you make life unnecessarily difficult for yourself, but inexperienced beginners deserve to be warned.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2024, 09:45:44 pm
content: Just for fun, yesterday I was inspired to spend 5 minnutes demonstrating the fun effects solderless breadboards can have. Getting the photo took another 5 minsThis is an unmodified solderless breadboard, a power source, and a neon bulb. As you can see, the power source is connected the left side side of the neon,but not to the right side. The neon bulb is getting enough power to light up, despite being unconnected to the power source.Such power transfer is more than sufficient to screw up an op-amp feedback loop, etc, etc, etc.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2024, 10:15:42 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 08, 2024, 09:39:13 pmHow many ways do I need to spell it out for you: “plenty exist” is NOT STATISTICS! That’s literally the point I have said to you twice already. Selection bias is a SAMPLING bias, but if one is not making ANY kind of statistical claims — and I am expressly and explicitly telling you AGAIN that I am making NO statistical claims — then you aren’t sampling at all.My claim is nothing more and nothing less than “plenty of people use them successfully and there is ample evidence of this”. That is a true statement. There is no statement of the number of people or the success or failure rate, nor anything like “most people”. So you cannot accuse me of selection bias because there’s no sampling and no statistical claim to begin with.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2024, 10:21:24 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 08, 2024, 10:15:42 pmUnsurprisingly, when I use your type of argument in return, you choose to ignore it and snip it

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 02:26:09 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 08, 2024, 10:21:24 pmIn return for what? I didn’t accuse you of intellectual dishonesty, which I think is something I have every right to defend myself about.Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2024, 10:28:43 pmI never said I disagree with that. But see how I emphasized “fairly” in how the pros and cons need to be presented? That was the key thing you are failing at horribly. I’m not anti-soldering. But I’m anti-anti-breadboard, because you don’t represent themfairly.

author: Omega Glory
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 07:51:02 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 08, 2024, 09:45:44 pmVery interesting. What was the applied voltage/frequency, and did you measure how much current was passing through the bulb?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 08:35:01 pm
content: Quote from: Omega Glory on February 09, 2024, 07:51:02 pmIt would be wrong to read too much into this demonstration; its principal purpose is avisuallygripping demonstration ofpowertransfer betweeninsulatedconductors.Frequency apparently around 150kHz, voltage and internal resistance are unclear but both are "high" (I hate adjectives). The "power supply" was a TIS1040 lamp tester. No, I didn't measure the current, either with a meter or my tongueIt also works with a modern high-efficiency LED, but not with old LEDs.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 09:09:05 pm
content: Oh, come on! the TIS1040 puts out3kVat 160kHz, probably a nasty waveform at that.You and tooki may get off on this constant argument but it's getting kind of tedious for the rest of us. That 'demonstration' has put you down in my estimation.P.S. It only takes a couple of pF inter-strip capacitance to pass enough current (the TIS1040 is limited to 7uA) to perform that little trick without needing any insulation breakdown.

author: Omega Glory
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 09:15:44 pm
content: 3kV into a breadboard!?!?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 09:55:24 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on February 09, 2024, 09:09:05 pmYou omit to mention he other very important characteristic: the source impedance. That is what will determine the voltage seen at the device terminal. The manual, such as it is, is unclear about the source impedance. Certainly touching the exposed termjnal with ringers produces no sensation whatsoever.Of course the leaf capacitance is of to be of the order of a few pF. That's obvious from simple school physics. But thatissufficient to cockup many analogue circuits, especially those with high internal gain reduced by heavy feedback.I've no idea why you've invoked insulation breakdown; that never been suggested as relevant.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 10:01:09 pm
content: Quote from: Omega Glory on February 09, 2024, 09:15:44 pmNo, much less than that, depending on the very poorly defined source impedance, and the dynamic impedance of the neon during breakdown, and interleaf capacitance.I get much much higher voltages (and currents) from clothing and HiFi equipment. ( I used the latter to make my daughter realise that electricity can bite)

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 10:33:59 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 09, 2024, 09:55:24 pmPlease don't make it worse...Source impedance of the TIS1040 is irrelevant in this situation, it's designed to be effectively a current source (for safety reasons). The voltage would have been the breakdown of the Neon (or LED) plus the drop across the reactance of the inter-strip capacitance at that the operating frequency.What is the reactance of a 1pF capacitor at (go on, I'll be generous) 150kHz pure sine wave? Take your time. Now how much reactance, and so, how big a fraction of a pF do you need to pass the entire current limit (7uA at 0-5Meg) of the TIS1040 output at 3kV?I mentioned breakdown, subsequently, because Omega Glory expressed surprise at the 3kV, it's likely that he was thinking about insulation breakdown.Posting you little neon demonstration without indicating the magnitude of the source was unforgivable. Credit to him for asking the question.Quote from: tggzzz on February 08, 2024, 09:45:44 pmYou may claim it was "Just for fun" but you posted it to make some sort of dramatic demonstration of how bad breadboards were, otherwise why bother, when a simple fractional-pF series capacitor would have achieved exactly the same result.Why did you use emotive language like "power transfer" and "the neon bulb getting enough power to light up, despite being unconnected to the power source." when what you actually meant was, there is a tiny bit of capacitance, as there is in anything. You intended to deceive.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 11:43:31 pm
content: highly sensitive circuits are like a small portion of electronics people work on anyway.you won't get far if you treat everything like that. it's counter productive to just assume everything is super sensitive. This falls into the realm of high impedance electronics.guess what, in the real world, its often considered a luxury. Real things have lots of wires, murphy goes out and puts nasty wiring thats hard to deal with everywhere. If you learn how to work with it your designs and skills become alot more practical.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2024, 01:16:57 am
content: If you think that "high impedance" and "high voltages" in that demo mean the demo is unrealistic, then let's consider a low-voltage low-impedance circuit that yououghtto have studied when learning electronics: a one transistor common-emitter amplifier.The BJT's collector-base capacitance (Ccb) is, as the excerpt from TAoE notes (p114), usually around 4pF. That is similar to the parasitic capacitors in solderless breadboards.TAoE goes on to note that Ccb"often dominates the rolloff characteristics of amplifiers, because a typical feedback capacitance of 4 pF can look like several hundred picofarads to ground"Essentially the capacitance is being "multiplied" by the amplifier's gain.That kind of phenomenon occurs inmanycircumstances where there is amplification/gain. It is one of the sources of the wry aphorism "amplifiers oscillate, oscillators won't".Small capacitancesdomatter, even in simple circuits.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2024, 09:47:05 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on February 09, 2024, 10:33:59 pmOK; that wasn't clear. Putting the wire on the plastic right next to the strip containing the neon doesn't illuminate the neon, whereas into a strip several rows away does. Hence I don't think breakdown is involvedQuoteThe large voltages are needed to fire a neon, so a large source is requiredMuch lower voltages can (and do) bugger up high gain circuits.QuoteThanks for including and acknowledging the caveat; a less honest person would have snipped and ignored itWhy "power transfer"? Because power is needed to illuminate the neon or LED, and it is transferred!Much lower power and voltages are sufficient in active circuits, even those that beginners might use. Photodiode amps will often have ~1pF feedback capacitors to get the frequency response, and there's the standard common-emitter amp example. see, e.g. TAoC chapter 4x.3 for many examples, including Fig4x.22 which has a 1pF capacitor around a "jellybean" LF411 op amp, and 1.3pF around a OPA656.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2024, 02:21:10 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 09, 2024, 08:35:01 pmI just got my breadboard from Assembly Specialist. The weight and contacts are pretty nice. Because of these posts, I measured the capacitance (w/ my Shannon tweezers) between adjacent rows. The Assemby Specialist (3M) have the highest (10 kHz) at 4.2 pF. Believe it or not the cheap ones and an older Global Specialty are lower at the same 3.3 pF.It does not change much if you skip rows. I can see how these details matter.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2024, 03:52:50 pm
content: Quote from: watchmaker on February 16, 2024, 02:21:10 pmThanks for the measurements; always better than handwaving!