US nuclear force still uses floppy disks - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: donkey77
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 05:54:44 am
content: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36385839$61bn! I should have been in IT! I'm sure I've got a few floppys up in the loft that I could sell them!

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 06:25:40 am
content: Quote from: donkey77 on May 26, 2016, 05:54:44 amThey say the drives will be replaced with something solid state by 2018. I bet the interface for those drives is so simple and slow it could be built on top of an Arduino with an SD expansion board. If they needed those System 1's replaced at some point with something compatible, it wouldn't surprise me if a small team of relatively non-expert engineers could build something compatible a relatively small FPGA.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 09:52:26 am
content: I'm happy for the US to buy my collection of floppy disk drives ;-) I'll throw in some blank disks.Not surprising considering Intel still made the 386 processor up until 2007. It's still in use today in satellites etc...

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 10:59:40 am
content: At least the magnetic data on floppy disks stay on it for a long long time (if not exposed to field), but flash is..... hmmmmmm

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 11:18:35 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 26, 2016, 10:59:40 amAgreed, the failure modes of magnetic media is probably much better characterised than flash. Floppies might be more resistant to EMP too.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 12:06:52 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on May 26, 2016, 09:52:26 amIt uses 8 inch disks. How many of them have you in stock :-)

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 12:22:03 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on May 26, 2016, 11:18:35 am

author: jolshefsky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 12:40:18 pm
content: I'm glad they stick with what works rather than jump on the latest fad. I agree with amyk: "the failure modes of magnetic media is probably much better characterised than flash". Rooted in established magnetic tape technology, floppies have a long history of behavior. Moving to newer technologies: magnetic hard drives have a few unavoidable, catastrophic failure modes (e.g. sticking spindles) that would likely be undesirable; flash would probably be better with (as far as I know) no unavoidable catastrophic failure modes although I'm not sure how well know those random bit errors are; ferromagnetic memory might be a possibility—I'm pretty sure it's really tiny iron core memory which has a long heritage.The key here, though, is to find a technology that, with proper maintenance, can continue to function after over 40 years. I just don't see toys like Arduinos having that kind of reliability.

author: botcrusher
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 01:11:27 pm
content: Well, so long as you treat the EEPROM on it like cancer, should last you quite some time.

author: ChrisG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 01:27:07 pm
content: 56 years old systems programmed in Assembly... Running Treasury Applications!!! Waow.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=68719.0;attach=227727;image

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 01:32:45 pm
content: Several other agencies have long-lived systems according to a recent GAO report:http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/05/government-agencies-keep-sacrificing-cash-to-zombie-it-systems-gao-finds/While not all or perhaps even most of these old systems are running on original hardware, many are still running software beyond its EOL.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 01:45:58 pm
content: Quote from: jolshefsky on May 26, 2016, 12:40:18 pmIf you want a really reliable computer readable medium - punched paper tape. You can get paper with exceptional archival properties and at the very worst, with paper tape the data can be re-constructed by visual examination. Same applies for the humble punch card which was usually made with very high quality durable cardboard - I've got a few early 70's vintage punch cards around that look as good as new. Of course if you need real longevity you'll have to fall back to writing in iron and oak gall ink on vellum (proven durability 1000 years plus) or clay tablets (proven durability 11,000 years). Gives a whole new meaning to tablet computer...

author: wkb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 02:30:27 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on May 26, 2016, 12:06:52 pmAt least 20.. Digital Equipment Corp RX02 to be precise

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 04:37:31 pm
content: Should be able to sell them for a good profit. 20k for the tolet seat, a disk must have cost half of a tolet seat back 40+ years ago. So 10k each?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 05:11:38 pm
content: So who is smarter. The one who pays $500 for a toilet seat and uses it for 40 years, or the one who buys a new $50 seat every eight years? Don't forget to include installation and disposal costs.It is easy to laugh at those 8 inch floppies. But if it ain't broken, why fix it? I retired mine in the late nineties because I didn't have any critical applications running there, and maintenance was getting hard. But with government resources and critical applications it is easy to see how they lasted a couple more decades. Replacing them with current technology means replacing the whole system. And there are many advantages to the old obsolete systems. How many of the hacker baby kits that are out there have any chance of impacting those systems?

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 05:13:22 pm
content: There is a strong argument for keeping what works, upgrading just for the sake of it often means reliability is sacrificed.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 06:21:10 pm
content: They were apparently reliable systems, their operation and characteristics are well known and doubtless documented. No reason to simply replace them for the sake of replacing them. I'm not particularly surprised that they hung on for so long.-Pat

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 06:32:41 pm
content: One thing though is the maintainability of legacy systems. We do not know how maintainable these systems are. Updating to newer systems allows for current parts to be available. I'm not saying this was a problem for these systems, but it's a consideration.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 06:43:20 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on May 26, 2016, 05:13:22 pmYes the US Army should never have upgraded from the Ford-T.Why would the reliability be sacrificed compared to running on a 40 year old computer where the processor is know to have internal rotting process, ram chips are becoming rare to replace, eproms have 20yr life etc. etc. ?We have seen the problems for NASA keeping the computers on the space shuttle running since those chips were dying due to bad process.The problem with many systems/programs that update older systems/programs is that there always are more requirements added than the original. Don't do that. Just replace the original with the modern equivalent and everything should be ok.Problems can also arise when certain original designs/requirements are no longer known or how the system works is unknown. Now I don't know about you but if some nuclear site would depend on a 40 year old system where no-one knows how it works or what the original designs and requirements are I would become very nervous. So I hope the Army bureaucracy at least has dozens of boxes with the paperwork left

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 07:19:05 pm
content: In that case upgrade the hardware, but still run the same software. With systems that age it is often easer to emulate the hardware than rewrite the software, even when you have the source code.

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 07:26:40 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 26, 2016, 06:43:20 pmhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/19/nuke_plants_to_keep_pdp11_until_2050/

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 07:42:46 pm
content: QuoteWhilst feeding a PDP8 with paper tape one of my colleagues said "watch your fingers chris, paper cuts. Mylar tape is worse but at least it's squaddie proof, you can trample all over it". He then produced a small roll of mylar tape.Seems like a lot of CDs from ten years ago fail if they were generated by computer plugin CD or DVD burners, my music CDs are OK, different process.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 08:19:23 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on May 26, 2016, 01:45:58 pmI actually "backup" my KeePass data file (which stores all my passwords and encryption keys in an encrypted database) onto paper using a program calledPaperBack. It prints the data out onto pages resembling QR codes which can later be scanned to re-form the original file. You can set different levels of error correction and data density depending on your printer/scanner.I did some tests and it's very resilient, even if part of the page is unreadable or missing, the original file can still be recovered.I use it as a "last resort" backup should other backups fail, or the house burns down etc...From memory I think the 600KB file can be printed out on 12 A4 pages with maximum redundancy and a fairly low resolution.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 08:19:41 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on May 26, 2016, 07:42:46 pmI used to work on a series of Burroughs computers that read in their bootstrap, a microcode bootstrap, from paper tape. These were so heavily used it wasn't unusual for a boot tape to only last a few weeks. Then I found a reel of mylar tape and dupped up a few copies of the bootstrap tapes for several different machines. I think the machines were scrapped before the mylar tapes wore out.By the way, the real test of toughness isn't "squaddie proof", it's "copper proof". The punchline to my favourite copper joke, told to me originally by one DS Phil Hardy from Sussex, is "Well Sarge, I lost one and broke the other" - says it all.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 08:39:45 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on May 26, 2016, 08:19:23 pmQuotejust don't keep the paper backup in the house thenbut if you keep it in a bankfault you could also just keep an harddisk or other medium there ?But interesting program, now i heard there was some kind of medium that is from stone and it would retain the data for 1000's years, esp. for photos and data, can't find the link anymore.

author: M4trix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 08:52:30 pm
content: I'm not concerned over floppy disks. Those who have the launch keys needs to be monitored since there were drug and alcohol abuse cases among the U.S. nuclear facility officers.Btw, I was a kid when this movie came out and was absolutely terrified !

author: donkey77
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 08:56:00 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on May 26, 2016, 08:19:41 pmWhat were the Burroughs machines you worked on? My dad used to work for them, starting on the old adding machines up until he retired a couple of years ago. I seem to remember he used to work on atms and cheque machines as I was growing up. Come to think of it he's probably still got some 8" floppys about somewhere too!

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 09:33:55 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 26, 2016, 08:39:45 pmYes, it's kept in a safe location. The drama isn't storing the physical backup, it's the device on which it's stored. I could just use a flash disk, CD, hard disk etc... as my "last resort" but I have no way of verifying its integrity without physically connecting it to a machine and testing it and even then, it is verified to be good at that moment in time, it could quite easily go bad the next day.At least with paper, it takes up very little room, it's stable long-term and I can verify it just by looking at it. I'm only taking about a very small amount of information (<1MB) but to loose it would be disastrous.

author: Nozzer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 09:40:02 pm
content: We were still using 8 inch floppy disks on our word processors at work back in 1985 when I worked in the House of Commons.I still have some somewhere, plus a collection of the later 5.25 inch floppy disks.M4trix, During the Cold War I was involved in civil defence, and had to plan to cope with the effects of a nuclear attack and its aftermath. The thing that frightened me more was what would have happened had nerve gas been used. Civilians had no protection from exposure to nerve agents.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 10:44:42 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on May 26, 2016, 08:19:23 pmDon't forget to Paperback the Paperback source code just in case...

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 10:48:43 pm
content: Quote from: M4trix on May 26, 2016, 08:52:30 pmLOL. They just showed clips from that on the cold war spy show The Americans last week. All the major characters all watch, wherever they are in the show - not hard to believe. Wikipedia: "More than 100 million people watched the program during its initial broadcast. It is currently the highest-rated television film in history." It scared everyone. I was 13.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 11:14:28 pm
content: 8" floppy disks are reasonably robust, easy to securely destroy - simply degauss and cross-cut shred - and hard to smuggle through security - if its good enough to stop document folders going walkies its good enough to secure the media as well.Add in the intersection of creeping featuritis, the byzantine DOD procurement process, and congress critters fighting to get what little pork there is in the barrel and its not surprising the legacy systems haven't been replaced yet.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 11:19:52 pm
content: Quote from: donkey77 on May 26, 2016, 08:56:00 pmI'd just promised myself that I wouldn't post any more off topic wibble in this thread and someone asks me a direct question!B80s, B90s, B700s, B800s and B1700s from memory, there are probably a few more I've forgotten offhand - we're talking 1/4 of century ago. It was the last three that bootstraped from microcode and were absolutely chock-a-block with 74 series TTL logic - he said trying to get some semblance of electronics relevance back.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 11:35:58 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on May 26, 2016, 11:14:28 pmHighly concentrated truth here.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2016, 11:50:31 pm
content: Quote from: JoeN on May 26, 2016, 10:48:43 pmIt is a good movie, I might have to watch it again....

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 12:51:36 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on May 26, 2016, 12:22:03 pmHello dear, here is that diskette you were looking for yesterday. Ha, how's my German?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 04:03:27 am
content: Quote from: JoeN on May 26, 2016, 10:44:42 pmI suppose I could back it up to EEPROM too ;-)

author: Don Hills
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 04:19:59 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on May 26, 2016, 08:19:23 pmReminds me of the Cauzin Softstrip system:http://cauzin.com/index_main.html

author: Don Hills
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 04:35:47 am
content: Quote from: JoeN on May 26, 2016, 06:25:40 amThe Series/1 was an odd beast for IBM. It was designed for industrial rather than commerical applications, with unique hardware and software. They were used as SWIFT network controllers by some of the banks here. I used to maintain some of them.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Series/1

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 01:10:54 pm
content: QuoteLife cycle management, as it is called, is a really niche thus lucrative business.

author: Augustus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 02:02:47 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on May 27, 2016, 12:51:36 am

author: Back2Volts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 06:07:27 pm
content: Quote from: Don Hills on May 27, 2016, 04:35:47 amI used to work with Series/1 in the 70s/80s. Nice hardware. IIRC they had four hardware priority levels, each with its own register stack. Priority level context switching was supper fast.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2016, 03:07:50 pm
content: https://youtu.be/45X4VP8CGtk

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2016, 07:59:10 am
content: Cris Thomas reply:Quotehttp://www.informationsecuritybuzz.com/hacker-news/expert-comments-us-military-uses-8-inch-floppy-disks-coordinate-nuclear-force-operations/

author: med6753
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2016, 02:05:40 am
content: We still have some kicking around the IBM Mainframe Test area but they haven't been used for years. The last IBM mainframe to use them was 3081/3084.Brand new, with a copyright date on the box of 1992. And a staggering capacity of 256 bytes.You'd be surprised how many Series 1's are still out there. Even IBM still used them in their semiconductor plant until Y2K.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2016, 02:22:40 am
content: the use of floppy drives can be debated as support may be a problem, however the use of assembly actually appears to me to still be the prudent choice. Its far less hackable. Total accountability down to the last bit.

author: crazyjim30
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2016, 03:22:41 am
content: The US Military has a valid reason for using technology long past its normal EOL. Stability. Case in point: They're still smarting over the Laserdisc debacle.The Army attempted to put some of their manuals on Laserdisc in the late 80's/early 90's. By the time these manuals made it to the field, the procurement/manufacturing time was so lengthy that the technology was obsolete before it was even used. Millions of dollars were wasted. The Army eventually dumped them on ROTC/JROTC units just to get them off the books.Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2016, 07:10:56 am
content: Quote from: med6753 on May 31, 2016, 02:05:40 am256kbytes I may hope

author: Don Hills
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2016, 09:22:01 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 31, 2016, 07:10:56 am256 bytes per sector... says so right on the label.For the diskette shown, data capacity is 568,320 bytes.It's all in the "IBM Diskette General Information Manual", GA21-9182. Plenty of copies available online.

author: med6753
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2016, 02:27:46 pm
content: Quote from: Don Hills on May 31, 2016, 09:22:01 amOops....you're right. 256 bytes per sector. D'OH!

author: Obi_Kwiet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2016, 07:43:34 pm
content: Quote from: jolshefsky on May 26, 2016, 12:40:18 pmMany times it has nothing to do with actual reliability. Back in the Cold War, when these systems were developed, there was a massive amount of funding for everything, and the systems were expected to be replaced after a decade anyway. When the USSR collapsed, so did R&D budgets, and we ended up making these systems last, and last and last.The performance of everything was extensively tested and characterized, because they had the money to do it. But the military demands that level of ham handed testing on everything, whether it makes sense or not. Typically they would much rather have something that is expensive and known to be very unreliable, than something cheap and far more reliable without their specific series of tests on it. If you are talking about custom, mission critical devices, that can be important. But when you are talking about office equipment that was delivered with some test set, it doesn't. There's this prevailing attitude that doing a very bad job is better than taking on the risk of putting your name on a change.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2016, 08:12:19 pm
content: We still offer a QIC tape and floppy import service which yanks serialized DBase databases in and converts them to http requests. It fixes all the shitty DOS codepage problems as well. This gets dragged out at least once a year when someone uncovers a client with an old PC in the corner of their office who needs to dig out some data so HMRC don't eviscerate him.You might laugh at the physical media in these scenarios but the situation with obsolete data formats, particularly horrible binary ones is actually a massive problem compared to the physical media. I know two companies that have lost everything after a system failure and ended up in deep compliance doo doo. No one can read their tapes other than some random old IBM PS2 box running Netware or OS/2 from the dark ages and a QIC drive sold by only one vendor with a bug in the IDE bridge which means you can't read it on a SCSI drive via the ridiculous chain of gender changers and adapters we have to keep hanging around.This shit is why XML and XSD is your friend.I'm not even going to get started on the 14.4k Hayes model we still have hosted at great expense in one of our DCs just so one company's software can UUCP us some ANSI encoded files.At least the money is good

author: molotov
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 02, 2016, 12:47:03 am
content: The system is simple for a reason, security.

author: jsi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2016, 02:06:41 am
content: This comes as no surprise to me. Back in the day during the height of the cold war with Reagan as president and defense spending through the roof I worked on a Minute Man Missile defense contract at Hill AFB. These missiles were deployed in 1962 and my job was to maintain the database of spare electronic parts. Every month we would send queries out the the various vendors asking how many of the 25+ year old parts they still had on the shelf. They were using drum hard drives in the launch control center, nothing had been updated and it was a total blast from the past.So when this "news" broke my thought was so what, nothing is different from 1987.

author: sarepairman2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2016, 04:58:02 am
content: i think that this type of storage medium is easily testable for authenticity with basic equipment, i.e. detectable bugs.they should run a modern system in parallel with it to increase security.when you have a system that can only be checked by very advanced places, it is easier to compromise those places. when you have a simple system that many independent parties can authenticate, it is more secure, because more agents/resources are needed.