Level of Education for the Average EEVBlog Forum Member? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 05:48:12 pm
content: After asking some fairly difficult questions about semiconductor physics to the EEVBlog group, I started to wonder what the level of education was for the average respondent.I'll be the first to tell you that education (by itself) doesn't mean a hill of beans. But in occidental society, it does tend to group people into classes. So I'm curious, how long has the average EEVBloger been stuck in a classroom?

author: Prime73
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 06:57:00 pm
content: You should probably rephrase the question... Level of education in what field? In electronics? or say ( of a sake of an argument) in geology/art, etc ? One could be a PhD in literature and a newbie in electronics and vice versa. On the other hand if you just asking about an overall level of education on eevblog that makes sense.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 07:08:31 pm
content: The point about what field your degree(s) is/are in is important. I have a M.S. and an M.D. but neither in engineering....Also - I'm not sure what you mean by Ast. Professor. Assistant Professor is not a degree but a job title. Depending on the field - one could be an assistant professor with a masters degree or pHd - or potentially even with a Bachelor's.

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 07:10:03 pm
content: Quote from: Prime73 on March 05, 2014, 06:57:00 pmOk. For EEVblog purposes, lets add 'in a hard science'.Engineering/Physics grade stuff.However, if there are any social scientists, physiologists, poets, or artists on the site, I'd love to hear from them.

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 07:14:25 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on March 05, 2014, 07:08:31 pmIts my understanding that in some systems the professorship is an academic degree, not just a job title.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habilitation

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 07:35:25 pm
content: Care to add "Trade"? I've completed high-school, but leaning most trades is almost a practical spin on a uni courseMy highest level would be instrumentation cert 4,

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 07:40:41 pm
content: Level of academic qualification can also be a little misleading, since such qualifications are usually obtained very early in ones career. As such an academic degree should be the start of your learning process and you might expect to advance far beyond that level of learning as your career progresses.

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 07:55:50 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on March 05, 2014, 07:40:41 pmIn my case I went back to university to do postgraduate study/research 24 years after finishing my first degree - most of my fellow students hadn't even been born when I'd last sat an exam (I still got on with them very well)!

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 08:11:28 pm
content: I have a lot of technical training, and my highest degree of education isn't listed.

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 08:37:50 pm
content: I find college education to be kind of a scam.I got an Associates degree in Computer Programming, which only required taking two actual classes on programming (C and HTML). Then when I started taking classes towards a bachelors, I found that my university doesn't actually "teach" anything. The teacher says "here's your assignment, figure it out, no questions allowed in class." And the students just sit there and try to figure out how to do whatever the project is by reading the text book quietly. I can do the same thing at home for free.I learned way more on the job in one year than I have in all of my years of education.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 08:54:52 pm
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 05, 2014, 08:37:50 pmYeah that's how it goes with technical stuff. I'm starting to wonder if the immense pressure to go to college is actually coming from college loan providers. There is something to be said about the work ethic of those who can sit in a chair for 4 years and get a Bachelors, though. There are lots of talented people who just cannot keep a job. If you have a degree you are very likely not one of those who cannot keep a job.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 09:16:39 pm
content: Quote from: CaptnYellowShirt on March 05, 2014, 07:10:03 pmUm, are you saying physiology (and by extension all biological sciences) are not "hard science " -lumped in with social science and artists no less?!!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 09:24:36 pm
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 05, 2014, 08:37:50 pmSadly, that sounds like a bad university or teaching program. That's not what you pay your college fees for...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 09:25:20 pm
content: This is some old data:

author: 2joki
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 09:58:23 pm
content: i was studying almost 10 years O0and finally not finish degree coz my lazyness

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 10:29:31 pm
content: Where is the years of experience poll.Years i been doin it as a hobby : 36Professionally : 22

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 10:59:25 pm
content: Quote from: Rerouter on March 05, 2014, 07:35:25 pmHow's that look?

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 11:02:04 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on March 05, 2014, 09:16:39 pmCarl Sagan would be mad with me for implying such a thing. How would you word it?

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 11:05:32 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 05, 2014, 10:29:31 pmI've read a lot of your posts here. Personally, I'd take your advice over the average professor any day.I'm just interested in education for this poll.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 01:48:53 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on March 05, 2014, 08:54:52 pmThis is the case, they want that student loan money. Thats one reason for college costs, at least in the US, being so high. They know people will take out the loans and they are very happy to accept them. Quality has gone downhill.A degree mostly just shows you have dedication to stick with something. Anything else it shows is up for debate.As for not keeping jobs, half the problem is the simple fact that people who are highly technical/intelligent(I use this broadly for anything from engineer to chemist) overwhelmingly have personality types that that just dont work well socially. I am sure you know exactly what I speak of. Plenty of these people get along just fine. However, in a world where human interaction is an absolute must, its harder for those less socially inclined to get along well, and by far, a vast majority of these people are the ones who are highly intelligent and talented.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 02:07:13 am
content: That's certainly true.At my employer we go through personality training (that makes it sound like more than it is) where you take a small online test, then you get results back about your personality. You get these colored foam Legos and you are meant to arrange them in the way the report describes you. I'm very, very much a blue, which is the anti-social engineer, "do it right" type. there's also "do it now," "do it without making enemies," and "do it together." In order of most to least significant, I am 'do it right, do it without making enemies, do it now, do it together." So the most important thing to me is to do it properly, the least important is to do it in a team.My point here is that as we learned about ourselves, everyone learned that not everyone sees things the way they do, and that their way is just as important and justified as your own. Most importantly it's the "do it now" people who learned a great deal about the "do it right" people. We all put our foam legos on our cubes and when you walk up to someone's desk, you see their stack and you know (generally) what kind of personality they have.It's helped a great deal in my workplace relations. I've been given a whole lot to do on my own, and it is amazing.

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 03:27:45 am
content: Quote from: Tinkerer on March 06, 2014, 01:48:53 amI've never met anyone like that... just people who can't keep up with my genius.heh.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 03:55:13 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on March 06, 2014, 02:07:13 amI went for an engineering job at Nokia way back in the 90's and sat a 2 hour psych test. The processed the results while I waited and then promptly offered me a some managerial job because that's what the psych test said I was good at. I turned them down of course.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 05:58:35 am
content: Quote from: 2joki on March 05, 2014, 09:58:23 pmYou are good!I took me 13 years just to finish K12.;-)

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 07:45:40 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 06, 2014, 03:55:13 amThat's a shame. Mine was dead-on, and spooky how accurate it was. If I hadn't remembered taking the test I would have been convinced someone was following me for months.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 08:27:55 am
content: I'm mostly self-taught. college was boring for me and I actually never finished (went to 3 colleges; long story...) but at the end, was missing 1 or 2 courses and figured I'd go back at night and finish the degree. I never did. I have no degree.I do have a ton of work experience (software) and have been hacking hardware for the past 40 or so years.when I interview people for jobs, I can tell those who are self taught (and enthusiastic) vs those who have 'snob degrees' and are mostly show-offs. I am not impressed by software degrees, to be honest. most of the eggheads who have masters or doctorates write the most horrid code and try to overcomplicate things, making their code very unsupportable.today, I am not convinced that college is a good 'investment', at least in the US. you pay so much and you won't get a job after you graduate ;( the labor force is a 'race to the bottom' and you can just barely make a living, even after having decades of experience. quite a sad state of things. what jobs are still here, today, will surely be outsourced tomorrow. its the trend and its NOT reversing. investing in engineering is not going to pay off unless you are very lucky. sorry to convey that bad news, but its better to have your eyes open and make decisions based on how things are going than to just hope that they improve. there is no sign that things are improving. again, its a race to the bottom and hiring managers look for young guys who are willing to work for peanuts. if you have experience, you are 'too expensive' and are not worth it to the bean-counters.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 08:32:14 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on March 06, 2014, 02:07:13 amno offense to you, personally, but that's the biggest load of bollocks I've heard in a long time.foam legos? jeeze...did you also have to read the 'who moved my cheese' book?I guess pointy haired managers have to justify their jobs somehow....(and HR folks, too.)

author: Derick Freese
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 08:46:06 am
content: I finished high school 2 years early, then delved pretty deep into the automotive world. Most of my electronics experience has been in repairs and building automotive electrical systems. I've built a few Megasquirt EFI systems, mostly for a budget-limited race.Since I found Dave (my first EEVBlog video was the fake Apple charger teardown), I have a renewed interest in electronics, but I am still not to the point of designing circuits yet. My parts bins are still practically empty, but my salvage pile takes up almost all of a 12 feet by 12 feet shed and half of my hobby room, which is 25 feet by 12 feet. It's mostly old computers and associated hardware from the couple years I worked as a computer tech. I don't really count that as electronics, even though it is.In my short 28 years, I've learned the same thing everyone else here seems to have learned, and that's the general uselessness of a college education beyond getting your foot in the door at a big company. The companies I would rather work for don't give a rat's waste end about a bit of paper.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 10:57:57 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 06, 2014, 03:55:13 amThe interview at Sony was/is a written technical test along with an8 hourinterview!I got the job, but have long since moved on.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 12:19:13 pm
content: Quote from: CaptnYellowShirt on March 05, 2014, 07:10:03 pmI'd like to call myself a traditional artist; what would you like to know? ;-)

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 12:20:28 pm
content: Where's the option for masters degree in progress?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 12:23:13 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 06, 2014, 12:20:28 pmSome Graduate School.

author: atw60444
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 12:44:39 pm
content: I don't really understand the question. How do High School & College map to the British education system?I went to Senior School (Comprehensive) until age 16 and then did day release for three years throughout my Telcom Technician Apprenticeship at a Technical College.Most of my real electronics and computing expertise is self taught over the past 30+ yearsJon

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 12:50:48 pm
content: If you don't understand the question you should select "PhD Degree". (just kidding)Just select what you think is most correct.

author: trackman44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 12:56:55 pm
content: What about "Graduated diploma College" or "Graduated Certificate"? That should be in the poll.Will

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 12:58:20 pm
content: Where's the option for two bachelor degrees

author: Jope
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 01:15:04 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on March 06, 2014, 07:45:40 amEverytime I read something like that, I think about this video:

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 01:50:36 pm
content: Quote from: Jope on March 06, 2014, 01:15:04 pmI know what you mean. There may be some of that here, I honestly don't know. It was eerily accurate in describing how I prefer to work, how I prefer to communicate, how I'm best managed, how I'm likely to express discontent, etc. The thing about this, that differs from your James Randi example, is that we can each see each others' reports, and there definitely is virtually nothing applicable to me that is in my colleagues' reports. It's not like I was handed the same one as everyone else, or one that was one of a set. I can see over 1,000 colleagues' reports and no two are the same.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 04:08:12 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 06, 2014, 08:27:55 amAll the US stats I have seen suggest that college graduates have significantly higher earning and lower unemployment.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 04:13:03 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on March 05, 2014, 08:54:52 pmI would say so, and include the universities themselves as well, public or private (take a look salary compensation for those that run these institutions in the US; it rivals CEO's, even for public schools). Seems education is really big business these days (article that might be of interest; focuses on K-12, but I find it hard to believe that it's not going on in higher education as well).Quote from: IanB on March 05, 2014, 09:24:36 pmSeems fairly common with state universities in the US, based on both my experience and conversations with others who have attended such schools. Seems I got more out of self-study than I did from sitting in a classroom.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 04:35:29 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on March 06, 2014, 04:08:12 pmask those stats what happens when you get older and you find yourself in a mostly-young work force. also ask yourself what happens as the divide grows between the workers and the executives.what I'm saying is that you have no value as a human being, if you are an employee. you are a 'human resource' and you can be thrown away at a moment's notice if the company misses its numbers even just a little bit. been there, done that, have the tee shirt (as they say).so many people (in the US) are graduating and unable to find jobs. those that do get jobs in their field find that employment is not very long-term and as soon as you become experienced at the job and ask for more pay, they walk you out and find someone cheaper and repeat the cycle all over again.yes, a college degree helps but its not the 'meal ticket' it once was. if you 'think' for a living, you are at risk in this world market: 'thinking' can be done in india or china and they will do RIF after RIF (reduction in force, sigh) when the bean counters find new ways to send work overseas to the cheapest bidder. local talent can starve for all they really care. it really is that cold and ruthless these days, and a formal education does not make you any more attractive if they can send your job to someone who will work for 1/5 to 1/4 your salary (and those are reasonably accurate numbers, too).my advice is to find a career that involves physical work; you can't have remote workers fix your plumbing or wire up your house or nail down wallboard. those so-called blue collar jobs are actually more secure, now and you don't need an expensive and extended formal education to do those (affordable trade school gets that job done).I don't know how it is in other countries, but the overly selfish and capitalistic US is killing its own middle class and college educated people were the heart of the middle class. why study in college only to be poor when you finish?in my grandfather's day, you could work for a company for decades and actually retire with a pension. no one hears of that happening anymore. I know 1 or 2 people who have extended stays at their companies but its the exception, now, rather than the rule. and since companies are not loyal to their workers, workers are getting hip to this and they no longer give the same dedication to their jobs. its a downward spiral ;(

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 04:54:53 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 06, 2014, 04:35:29 pmMy main man Mohan has something to say about this:"I suggest to you that we are departing from one of the sacred laws of our being when we leave our neighbour and go somewhere else to satisfy our wants. If a man comes from Bombay here and offers you wares, you are not justified in supporting the Bombay merchant or trader so long as you have got a merchant at your very door born and bred in Madras. That is my view of Swadeshi, In your village, so long as you have a village barber, you are bound to support the village barber to the exclusion of the finished barber that may come to you from Madras. Train your village barber by all means to reach the attainment of the barber from Madras, but until he does so, you are not justified in going to the Madras barber. When we find that there are many things we cannot get, we try to do without them. We may have to do without so many things which to-day we consider necessary, and believe me when you have that frame of mind, you will find a great burden taken off."

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 05:04:48 pm
content: "The trouble with the rat-race is that, even if you win, you're still a rat." --Lilly Tomlin

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 05:09:33 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 06, 2014, 04:35:29 pmSadly, I concur.But having grown up in a family that earned their living as electricians, it's not all that green on that side of the fence either. Dad and my uncle always called it "Feast or Famine", and the famine periods got longer and longer. To the point the feast portion of the cycle wasn't able to cover the famine periods any more due to reduced net margins. So the downward spiral isn't limited to any particular industry from what I can tell, even if physical presence is required to do the job.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 05:31:36 pm
content: I work for a company that:A) is massive - tens of thousands of employees,B) is global - we sell, maintain, and support our products in over 50 countries,C) has a mandatory zero-employee-cost retirement plan, in writing - a pension plan that you can actually live off of if you work here for 20 years or more,D) does not view its employees as pure resources, and takes care to not only grow you as an employee, but as a person - that includes company paid training for hobbiesE) is green, actively and without government mandate seeking new more efficient ways to do things both internally and in our products,F) gives 20% of your yearly salary (above your yearly salary) as a bonus in December, depending on company performance,and so on. And, it's not a tech company, though I work in the IT division.Being considered an expendable asset is how it's run in a lot of places, but not all companies are like that. In fact, there are many like mine, but you must be willing to see them in order to see them.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 05:37:25 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 06, 2014, 04:35:29 pmI only partly agree with this. It's true that many "thinking jobs" are insecure and increasingly require huge student loan debt (or a wealthy family) to secure the diploma needed to get your foot in the door. I also agree that having a real "hands on" type of skill is a good way to ensure you can always put food on the table but I'd be careful about many physical labor type of jobs. Some construction type trades seem great when you're young - they pay relatively well for the minimal formal training needed - the problem comes later in life when your body is no longer able to keep up with the physical demands of the job or you become injured and have no skills you can use that don't involve a 100% healthy body. I take care of way to many 40+ yr olds (loggers, construction workers, etc) who have become injured or have age related physical limitations that force them to stop working and they suddenly find themselves without the skills to pursue any other line of work.Lots of 'hands on" skills and jobs that don't require heavy physical labor - lots of example in technical/engineering fields. health care, agriculture, etc. Ask yourself: " If I suddenly found myself in a undeveloped country - what skills do I have that would be useful and allow me to provide for myself (and family)."This is why in my mid 30s I decided to leave my job as a college neurobiology instructor and go to medical school....

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 05:48:22 pm
content: I am not saying that physical-based jobs are a guarantee of employment or stable income; but they do seem much less prone to being outsourced and that's the #1 problem in the US workforce, today. bean counters simply see short-term balance sheets and are rewarded for anything they can do to lower costs.the demand for blue collar won't ever go down. things need to be fixed and built and that can't be done remotely. it has its ups and downs, but it also has (to a large degree) a notion of unions and the thinking-based jobs are not quite onboard with the whole union thing. ask a software guy what he thinks about unions and his usual brainwashed answer is "I'm talented and can find a job. I don't need union protection". and the employers love this, they laugh all the way to the bank.again, this is the view from silicon valley. I've been living and working here for nearly 25 years and this is all first-hand experience that I'm relaying, here.if you do choose to go to college, at least consider going to a co-op or intern-based school. that way, when you graduate, at least you have actual work experience to list on your resume (or CV). those without it are less competitive in getting their first post-graduation job.

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 05:49:41 pm
content: Quick example of how formal education is overrated:In my department there are 4 people. There's me; I have an associates degree. Then there is a lady with a bachelors degree, a guy with a masters degree, and another lady with a phd.The guy with the master's degree is my manager and I have no idea what he earns, but the rest of us all earn the same wage and do more-or-less the same thing. My school loans are paid off now. Everyone else in the office has tons of school debt they're still paying off. So where is the benefit of the additional years of schooling?

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 06:01:11 pm
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 06, 2014, 05:49:41 pmMany Many Many Many companies will toss your resume without a 4 year degree. You could have 100 Nobel Prizes, dozens of published papers, knighted by the Queen and it would all be meaningless without that piece of paper.So if you're looking to get hired at many big companies, the benefit isHUGE.

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 06:17:40 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on March 06, 2014, 06:01:11 pmI work for a University, and while some of the tech jobs here do require a 4-year degree, most departments will take experience and knowledge as a substitute. In fact, it seems they prefer it. I've been here a year, and I've already been approached by another department with an offer of increased pay.And I could be taking advantage of free classes while I'm here (perk of working for a University), but I choose not to. Seems like a better use of my time is teaching myself new languages and skills and maybe getting some certifications. I'm sure your mileage may vary though.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 06:23:22 pm
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 06, 2014, 06:17:40 pmI'm glad to hear, sadly not the case everywhere. On several occasions I've had technicians I've wanted to promote, some with decades of proven faithful service, that could without doubt do the job, still denied by HR.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 06:24:12 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on March 06, 2014, 06:01:11 pmthe flip side is, once you become experienced and seasoned, you are now 'too expensive' and will have your resume tossed.it goes both ways. there is definitely a sweet spot in the middle, but don't be fooled by that; it does not persist for very long.I've been told 'sorry, you are too over qualified, you would be bored doing this' even when I was very willing to do the work and would be grateful for the chance.just beware that being under or over qualified is a curse.

author: Christopher
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 06:38:25 pm
content: Out of the classroom at 17/18 and straight into the world of electronics. Whether it was the better move or not I don't know...Starting Uni in September, though..

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 07:52:24 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 06, 2014, 06:24:12 pmI hate that. How about you let me decide what I'll be bored with?As long as the bossman gets his deliverables at the end of the week, who would really care?My translation of phrases like that is: We don't think we can push you around.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 08:00:47 pm
content: Quote from: CaptnYellowShirt on March 06, 2014, 07:52:24 pmFor a hiring manager your missing the point. He is not only looking for the right person for job X, but also a person that he feels will be satisfied with the job and work, hoping he sticks around for the long haul.The way over qualified guy might have been recently laid-off just looking to get in anywhere, still searching for right job in his eyes. Why train a person, which can often take a year +, that is just looking for the next gig?

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 08:07:17 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on March 06, 2014, 08:00:47 pmThankfully my current boss was willing to hire me knowing it wouldn't be a long gig for me. I was upfront that I would only be here for a short time as there isn't room for growth in my department and I have certain financial goals I'm working towards. But I told them that I would improve the infrastructure while I was here and leave the department in a much better place then when I arrived, which I believe I have at this point.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 08:17:15 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on March 06, 2014, 08:00:47 pmTRAIN a person?that never happens anymore, not in my locale, anyway. not only do they look for an exact match (you already coming in with 100% skill set) but they see 'training' as simply an expense to be avoided.again, there is no long term employment here anymore. there is no thought about investing in people. we are simply materials, now.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 08:20:01 pm
content: Quote from: CaptnYellowShirt on March 06, 2014, 07:52:24 pmyou got that 100% right. if you show that you know the rules (what they can ask you to do and what you have the right to decline, on) - they prefer to have someone they can push around and scare into over-working.this is an unspoken reason why there is so much emphasis on hiring only young people. they don't know (yet) how to say 'no' to mr. bossman. modern companies really hate an independant person who does not automatically swallow what is fed to them. older guys know what a reasonable balance is.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 08:26:07 pm
content: speaking of being over-qualified, many who are not in the US may not have read about this:http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/09/nyregion/metro-news-briefs-connecticut-judge-rules-that-police-can-bar-high-iq-scores.htmlin short, a guy wanted to join the police force and took the mandatory IQ test. he scored 'too high' and they rejected him. their thought was that the job is for 'less insightful people' (my words) and that he'd be bored and would waste the training they would have to supply him with.you have control over life and death (US cops carry guns and even military style weapons, these days) and you can ruin a person's life: but please don't be overly smart.(sigh!)

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 08:45:18 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 06, 2014, 08:17:15 pmMust have been a pre-google thing.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 09:01:19 pm
content: For any younger people reading all the comments about how bad the workplace is these days, don't let it put you off. For every bad employer you hear about there are still good employers out there, ones that do believe in training, ones that do value experience, and ones that don't believe every job can be outsourced. Believe it or not, these good jobs are more accessible to people with higher levels of professional training entered through bachelors or masters degrees than otherwise.At the same time, do understand that professional engineering is a desk job. You will spend most of your time at a keyboard, or in meetings, working on designs and documentation and doing calculations. There will be some bench or field work, but that work will make up breaks in your normal routine, not the main part of your time. Most of your time will be spent in the office.In compensation you may get to travel, and meet other people in your field, and do intellectually challenging work. You will not be bored.

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 09:07:04 pm
content: Quote from: Dawgie on March 06, 2014, 08:49:38 pmHow do I get there? Do they take Visa or Master Card?

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 09:09:03 pm
content: Quotebusiness travel, for the most part, is a horrible chore! some companies force pairs of employees to share a single hotel room (no privacy), take non-business class flights and its rarely a 'vacation' when you are traveling for work. I used to regularly fly to europe (mostly the UK) to do corporate training and I was lucky enough to work for a good company who did fly you business class if it was over 5 or 6 hours of flight (this was DEC; now a non-company that some people have actually never even heard of). we were put up in 4 star hotels and treated well. but this was 25 years ago and I never hear of companies giving you anything other than the cheapest travel arrangements and often denying you choice in airlines, etc.also add that travel, today, is a huge hassle (thanks, TSA) and if they make a mistake and find a name on a 'no fly list' that happens to match yours, you could get stranded somewhere. its not common but its a risk. add to that the fact that you have to get to the airport hours earlier than you used to and have to waste so much time. I prefer not to fly for corporations if I can help it. its not fun and stopped being fun a long time ago.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 09:09:45 pm
content: Quote from: CaptnYellowShirt on March 06, 2014, 09:07:04 pmthey don't take plastic. but the good news is, they do take rubber!(lol)

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 12:08:14 am
content: QuoteThis has nothing to do with capitalism and has everything to do with government and cronyism. I partially agree on the selfish part as that is sort of a basis of capitalism.Quote from: linux-works on March 06, 2014, 08:26:07 pmThe entire excuse was that smarter people would be more easily bored at the job. The actual reason is because they want people who will do what they are told, not think for themselves. Dumber or smarter people dont get bored more or less easily.(well, truely genius type people might get bored more easy but they probably wouldnt go into police work anyway) Depends alot of the person except when stupid people get bored, they are alot more prone to do stupid things.QuoteYou have alot of things right and alot of things that are too narrow a view.First, you are correct in that many places refuse to train new people. There will be a crisis in maybe 10-20 years when all the older guys in engineering start to retire and they are left with a shortage of experienced people.(this is as told to me by a hiring person for a company during an interview explaining that he had to make the pitch to the higher ups as to why they should be investing in younger people)Value as an employee? What in the world places have you worked at? I may not have a ton of work experience(having only worked a couple jobs), but so far all my experience in terms of 'employee value' has been positive or neutral. With that said, I do realize that it is true in many cases that they like replacing people.The physical work you reference, also known as trade work is indeed stable and it pays pretty well. As cited elsewhere, once the guys get old, that becomes not as feasable.To tie everything together, I dont know how your life has been or any of that, but if these posts are anything to go by, you have had not a good time and apparently have only worked in the large corporate environments where they place less value on the individual. You are citing what you know and portraying it as absolute across the spectrum when that is simply not true or only half the case. Look below.Quote from: IanB on March 06, 2014, 09:01:19 pmThis isexactlycorrect. I work for one of those good employers. I also happen to practically be the youngest person in the company at 27. I managed to get in and I am basically constantly in training learning about stuff as I go along. I currently do testing but I will be moving towards an actual engineering position; I have recently actually started writing actual procedures on testing and my name is being signed at the top of the document as the engineer, despite the fact that I am not yet in an engineering role. This company is midsized to smaller with only a hundred plus people tops at it. A few of the people there have been with it for a couple decades and a large number of people have been there for over 5 and 10 years. This is a company that does a good bit of its production inhouse and not outsourced. However, from what I hear, they are going to start moving towards mostly an engineering role and away from that, whether that happens I dont know.Yes, I can also say that many of the engineers spend their time at the keyboard and in meetings and basically as exactly described in that last paragraph. That last sentence is also true.I get an hour long lunch break and they offer things like yoga and even the vice president participates in the sports people like to do during lunch. I would have to say that I have found a pretty damned good place to work based on the above and among other things.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 01:34:16 am
content: I'm in my early 50's and did about 10 years in the boston area, then moved out to silicon valley and spent the last 25 or so years here, working in software. I was very lucky to have worked for a lot of famous and big-name companies (primarily in the networking field) and things changed *drastically* once I started to get grey hair. its a very common theme and I'm hearing it all the time. to be honest, I don't think I ever had training on the job, not ever. I don't count 'coming up to speed on the code base' as training, btw.its very god-eat-god (oops, I mean dog-eat-dog; sometimes I get things backwards) here in the bay area. I would hope it would be a bit more humane elsewhere, but then again, most of the hot tech jobs are out here so I really don't have a huge choice if I want to work for the top companies (in my field). I also don't want to live somewhere where the choices are few and far between.in terms of capitalism, though, its all about 'shareholder value' and NOTHING about employees, their lives, their quality of living, what is good for society, etc. NOTHING about that. that's what I object to. no thought to long-term stability. invade, rob, burn to the ground and move on to the next. seriously, it really seems like that. layoffs happen at the drop of a hat and no thought at all to how it will affect PEOPLE.capitalism has no ethics, no morals. its ONLY about maximizing profit. and this is wrong; very very wrong. its not sustainable.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 02:16:16 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 07, 2014, 01:34:16 amAnd this is what I got a hint of. Age descrimination happens in many fields, not just the technical ones. Obviously companies arnt supposed to, but try proving they did; its pretty hard. Why pay a single a large salary to one older guy when you can hire 3 younger ones for the same price.The guy I replaced at the company I work at is the one who gave me training on the job. He wasnt being canned though, he had simply decided to go elsewhere.Quote from: linux-works on March 07, 2014, 01:34:16 amCapitalism is like the natural world as an economic system. Its survival of the fittest and how thats done isnt much cared about. What you are talking about is pure capitalistic greed and what not. That certainly exists and can exist in this system and you say it isnt sustainable and if thats the case, companies who pay no regard to anything but profit shouldnt last too long. Its like survival of the fittest, companies who pay no heed will die out to those that do.Really, what you see as people not caring(well there is alot of this of course) is people who are the stereotypical middle manager that Dave likes to mention. They really dont know how to properly manage stuff very well and end up not doing things completely right.If they all had to take courses on management(the companies and those middle managers) and we would probably see much less of that lack of care you talk about. People who are satisfied at work are a ton more productive than people who are not.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 02:27:58 am
content: Quotethere is a difference. people are not animals (at least we aspire to be more than that). comparing us to the animal kingdom is not a compliment and I reject that premise. man is better than that. we can be and we should be.if we don't take care of each other, we are no better than stupid animals.

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 03:19:24 am
content: Capitalism isn't the problem. Greed and corruption exist in any system. The problem in the US is primarily one of government. The amount of legal hoops one has to go through as a business owner here are staggering, and those expenses are then pulled from the consumer in terms of higher prices and less customer service, and from the employee in terms of less wages and less opportunities.

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 03:30:23 am
content: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 03:32:04 am
content: Quote from: CaptnYellowShirt on March 07, 2014, 03:30:23 amyup. in some cases, animals are more human than humans.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 03:46:14 am
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 07, 2014, 03:19:24 amThis might be of interest.

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 03:59:35 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on March 07, 2014, 03:46:14 amEh, I don't buy it. Dividing nations into classes like rich vs poor is just a distraction from real issues. Being rich doesn't make someone bad, and being poor doesn't make someone good.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 04:22:24 am
content: Quoteits more about social responsibility and giving back (like paying fair share of taxes) when you have so greatly benefitted from the system. the US system, at least, creates so many loopholes for the rich to evade paying taxes and the burden is covered by those who can afford it much less. there is no sign of anyone changing this, either, any time soon.the reason the rich are generally dispised is because they don't give back and don't share. they have a 2nd set of laws that apply to the rich and powerful and this is not the set of laws that apply to regular people.but I do think we're getting offtrack, here (lol).

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 04:52:23 am
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 07, 2014, 03:59:35 amThat's not what I'm getting at.BTW, did you just read the text, or also watch the video?I ask, as I found the actual test subject portions quite interesting. It's not so much as just accepting someone else's conclusions, as you can see it first hand (full video is better if you're willing to watch an hour).As it happens, the behavior described mates up with what I've witnessed first hand. The higher they got, the less they cared about others and it showed in the decisions they made that affected those beneath them (i.e. Sr. VP levels as they had stock units as part of their compensation; it really did seem to change those individual's outlook IME).I've also noticed that it's not as prevalent in smaller companies, as upper management is more likely to have direct contact with underlings rather than those in say Fortune xxx companies with tens of thousands of employees, where it's impossible for them to know someone that's not a VP or higher. Much easier to have less empathy towards someone you never see, and harder to be as callous when you do (not impossible, but doesn't seem to be as common).This also comes into play in social responsibility IMHO as well, as linux-works mentioned. The more you have, it really does seem to bear out that those individuals are less likely to give back anywhere near what they've gotten. And based on other studies of this, it's usually less than those that don't have anywhere near as much to give that actually give more. Comes back to empathy, which is where social responsibility stems from.As you get older, and perhaps work for larger entities, you may witness these sorts of things first hand far more frequently than you do now (or at all, as it doesn't seem to be present from your present employer, which is a wonderful thing).

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2014, 01:33:42 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 07, 2014, 04:22:24 amA loophole is a legal tax deduction until some politician and/or a particular voting block finds a use for other peoples money.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2014, 03:52:36 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 07, 2014, 04:22:24 amSpend more time watching EEVblog videos and less MSNBC.If you daemonize success you will never be successful.

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2014, 04:01:52 am
content: "You don't understand. Ferengi workers don't want to stop the exploitation. We want to find a way to become the exploiters."

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2014, 04:03:09 am
content: first, I don't watch tv. don't have a tv subscription and don't watch tv news (any of it).second, you have no idea what I just said; or, you didn't really read it and just read what you wanted into it.I don't resent 'success'. I resent the ruthless pursuit of monetary gain at whatever it takes to get there. that's the attitude and type of person that many people are angry with.honest earned success and a give-back attitude endears people. but that's not the typical Very Rich(tm) person. and it has nothing to do with network TV (lol).

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2014, 06:14:30 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 09, 2014, 04:03:09 amI see, you not despise all rich people but just the subset of them that you consider 'ruthless'. This is not what your original post implied.

author: electrolux
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2014, 10:27:14 am
content: Add Home education to the options.

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2014, 01:15:23 pm
content: I'd just like to say, that anyone who believes that gaining wealth makes good people into bad people, please PM me so I can give you an address where you send your extra money to.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2014, 02:54:01 pm
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 09, 2014, 01:15:23 pmWell said.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2014, 03:13:03 pm
content: I find the question kinda pointless, as there is soo much difference between education systems, and courses. IE. for example even an MIT MSC (equivalent) student will never learn so much math as they teach in some east europe BSC students, and they teach the same math in highschool in india. On the other hand they teach at US how to solve problems and be creative, how to follow what the boss said in india (must be a culture thing), and how to be bitter at east europe (with more than 50% drop-out rate) but solve the problems at all cost.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2014, 03:41:29 pm
content: The rich don't need to give back. That's a false premise. The rich created a product or a service that you decided was worth more to you than the dollar in your hand. You made them wealthy through voluntary exchange. "Give Back" is the cry of the looter. If the wealthy give back and you don't give back to them then you are just a thief. Of course you don't get them to "give back" yourself. You have government do it at the point of a gun.

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2014, 04:39:23 pm
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 09, 2014, 01:15:23 pmA crazzzzyyyy social reformist once said:"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2014, 04:57:18 pm
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 09, 2014, 01:15:23 pmAwesome reply.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2014, 09:47:06 pm
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 09, 2014, 01:15:23 pmTechnically, you're right. Money will not make a good person bad. Money, in excess, WILL make someone who wants to be an asshole capable of being an asshole without much fear of repercussion, though. Money is an enabler. Lots of people are nice, and fit into society merely because they're forced to, or the consequences of being themselves have proven too much for society; give them a route to act without consequences and those people will very quickly become "bad."In that way, money does appear to make people bad, but those people were bad anyway, and if it weren't for the money, they would be forced to play the part of a good person their whole lives or suffer the consequences.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 01:10:14 am
content: Quote from: lemmegraphdat on March 09, 2014, 03:41:29 pmThis is true. However, it increasingly doesnt apply to many of these people who benefit from legislation forcing people to give their money.(Obamacare comes to mind but lets not get into the arguement on this) In otherwords, gov handouts to businesses etc. I think my state deserves my tax dollars but not the federal government.(unfortunatly I will go to jail if I try resisting in that regard; and if I resisted going to jail, they would shoot me or otherwise do some kind of harm)There have been studies on what money does to people and indeed, those with alot tend to view themselves differently from those without alot.This is a very large topic and it would be easy to write pages on it, but I think that we should not get completely offtopic. One thing I would find interesting is education level vs money and how people view it.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 02:03:37 am
content: Quote from: lemmegraphdat on March 09, 2014, 03:41:29 pmif they'd pay their fair share of taxes, I'd be happy. Offshore this, shelter company that.That'stheft...

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 03:09:18 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on March 10, 2014, 02:03:37 amwe agree. (is this a first, for the forum? lol!)no one wants to pay taxes, but they are needed to pay for infrastructure (other things too, but this is the most impacting thing for all of us). yes, taxes also get wasted but that's beside the point; if none get paid, nothing gets fixed or expanded.the poor HAVE to pay taxes (sales tax and income tax). the rich have shelters to hide their money and its just not fair to the rest of us who have to shoulder THEIR responsibility. I am not saying that what they do is not legal; but legal != moral.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 03:26:38 am
content: Quote from: CaptnYellowShirt on March 09, 2014, 04:39:23 pmGoddamn Commie!

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 04:18:45 am
content: The entire tax system needs overhauling to begin with. It is far too complex.I would put a tiered sales tax system in(to replace everything else) with things like basic raw foods taxed the least and things like luxery yachts taxed the most. This avoids taxing the poor heavily while still getting the rich and allowing people to simply not pay tax if they dont want to buy anything.

author: casinada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 05:33:08 am
content: As far as I know, food is not taxed. Go to a supermarket and buy food, you will pay no taxes. If you go to a Restaurant on the other hand they will charge taxes as mandated by law for providing a service.This is really of topic already

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 05:37:07 am
content: Quote from: CaptnYellowShirt on March 09, 2014, 04:39:23 pmHe was right, needles do exist.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 07:17:29 am
content: Quote from: lemmegraphdat on March 09, 2014, 03:41:29 pmHa!, If only it were so! Perhaps in a bygone era. In the real world- here, now, in the USA - most of the truly rich have accumulated their riches working as banksters, raiders and other such mega-corporate piglets suckling at the tit of government directed corporate socialism. They're the looters - accumulating wealth by sucking money out of the system - hollowing out the middle class and outright mugging the working class in the process. The sick irony is that they've managed to fool large numbers into continuing to vote against their best interests and into believing in the kind of fairy tale America that you propose (thanks Rupert!). As Warren Buffet said "yes, this IS class warfare and my class is winning!."Of course there are plenty of run of the mill, lower level "rich" who have worked hard to create something of value and have contributed to society, but these are more and more becoming the exception.True enough that goverment has an unhealthy role in redistribution of wealth, but the distrubuting is to the rich - who bankroll the politicians. It's quite a slight of hand they've mastered, convincing so many otherwise well meaning people that this is how "capitalism" is supposed to function...

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 02:54:58 pm
content: mtdoc: you took the words right out of my mouth.thank you for saying what had to be said. I'm glad that some people see what is actually going on.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 02:58:51 pm
content: Quote from: casinada on March 10, 2014, 05:33:08 amIt is where I live.Not just things like soda or other forms of junk food (ready to eat; just open and shovel into mouth), but basic staples that require preparation such as milk, eggs, bread, rice,.... are taxed as well. As are prescription medications and clothing.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 03:05:40 pm
content: In Illinois, non-processed and non-cooked foods or "staples" such as milk, eggs, bulk water, bread, cheese, raw meat, etc. are taxed at 1%, and are exempt from local city, and county sales taxes. 1%, state-wide.Processed stuff like chicken nuggets, cereal, snack food, bottled water in single-serving bottles, everything that isn't raw, is regular sales tax rate and all local sales taxes apply.It works well to encourage folks like myself to buy raw stuff and to learn to cook.

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 03:59:00 pm
content: I don't see the point in worrying about what someone else has or doesn't have, or their level of "rich-ness". I agreed to work for my current wage. If my neighbors are richer or poorer than me, it doesn't affect my income at all. It's just an excuse. When you're not happy with what you have, it's easy to blame someone who has more.And for the record, the top 10% of wealthiest Americans pay over 70% percent of all taxes in America, so it's pretty silly to keep saying they don't pay their fair share when they are paying the vast majority.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 04:09:11 pm
content: the point of 'worrying' about what others make is to point out the HUGE injustice and unbalance in the system.you have already made up your mind and won't be convinced, so we'll have to agree to disagree. but those who have taken from the system very often do not give back and this is the issue many of us are vocalizing, right now.one of the the biggest crimes in modern times is to convince middle class people that they have a chance at the 'american dream'. its a lie, though! if you were not born into wealth or dont' have the right connections, you'll rarely ever move above your current class level. in fact, many of us have had to move DOWN due to the economic crisis of the last 20 or so years.but again, I know you and I won't ever see eye-to-eye. some people think they really do have a chance to move up. those are the ones who bought the 'con' and, for some reason, won't let go of that lie until they personally hit the bread-line or the unemployment line. until it hits home with them personally, they'll continue to defend to so-called 'job creators' and the trickle-down non-concept....the only trickling down I feel is some fat cat pissing on my leg!

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 04:14:32 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 10, 2014, 04:09:11 pm+1Its a well studied phenomena and the metrics point to now as being one of the most 'unfair' times in recorded economic history.

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 04:18:02 pm
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 10, 2014, 03:59:00 pmCould you entertain the idea that you may have agreed because you don't know any better?

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 04:28:10 pm
content: I don't agree to work for my current wage. in fact, you very rarely have ANY say in what they offer you. you cannot bargain much with companies and you can't make any demands (anymore; you once could but not anymore). they dictate the terms and you take it or leave it. there isn't a lot of choice (unless you consider starving a choice).is there 'choice' in network providers? no, when you move, you are serviced by one ISP and that's who you get. there's a lot of things in modern life that really leaves you no choice. if you want to have X you have to do Y and there's no negotiations about it.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 04:28:56 pm
content: I left school half way through year 10? or Form 3 in the old days , was 15 and a half , into a grubby dirty oily old farm/earthmoving workshop , the old man got it organized as I was just a no hoper with no direction and a bit dense about the real world stuff (people) .I was lucky that I had real good mentors? or other old codgers there to instruct from and I taught them too, no unions .But it seems I had a natural inclination to grub around in oil grease dirt and Machines , Lectronics is a Hobby .edited/added> I forgot to mention it turned into an Apprenticeship and then a trade ..

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 04:38:51 pm
content: Quote from: CaptnYellowShirt on March 10, 2014, 04:14:32 pmfor an informed view that backs up that assertion, see the movie 'inequality for all'.its a real eye-opener. it shows the early part of the century and the income (and stock market) graphs compared to today. lots of interesting parallels and some cause/effects are considered in that documentary.well worth a watch. and yes, its on the bay if anyone is so inclined..

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 04:44:01 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 10, 2014, 04:09:11 pmWell it's hard to move up or down no matter which "class" you were born into, if you don't have the desire to make it happen. It is done, though. It's just a matter of being able to recognize faults with your own decision making process, address them, think more than you feel, analyze more than you use your gut, and work hard.It is true, though, that moving from the "middle" class to The Koch Brothers level of wealth is very, very rare, and is far more a random opportunity lottery than it is skill.I've known so many people who were exceptionally bright, but because they were born into an abusive household, and they didn't realize just how much this can affect their decision-making, they never got any kind of therapy or medication or anything. They made bad decision after bad decision after bad decision and none of it was never their fault, if you were to ask them. "It's her fault I got a DUI." no, fool, it's your fault...Untreated psychological trauma is a virtual guarantee that you're going to make bad decisions and be unable to move up financially.I don't understand why every parent knows that learning in childhood is important, but so few seem to understand that adulthood stands on the shoulders of childhood. If you beat the snot out of your kid a lot, that kid is going to be a very screwed up adult, no question. It is very unlikely that that adult will be successful in any endeavor that isn't maximizing time spent in jail.And by the way, we, as a society, globally, really need to address this, because those kids that grew up suffering trauma cost society a hell of a lot more than they provide. Time in the courts, time in foster homes, time in jail, police time, etc. They often fail to work and are a net negative on society. Kids that grow up in healthy environments are a net positive by a large margin.Raise your kids right and that those kids will pretty climb the economic ladder, if they choose to do so. If you didn't raise them right, make sure they (and yourself) get psychological help. Not everyone believes that "shrinks" can actually cure anything, but they certainly can, and the science proves it.

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 05:43:32 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 10, 2014, 04:09:11 pmI am fine with agreeing to disagree. For the sake of clarity though, I neither expect or care to become rich. If the "american dream" is to become rich, well that's ridiculous. Not everyone can be rich, that's simple mathematics. And it's not like being rich makes you happy anyway. I just need to earn enough to meet my needs. Everything else is gravy.And regarding the comments about it being impossible to move up in this country, it's only impossible if you're not willing to work. Some people feel like they should earn more without putting any work towards improving their skills, or without making wise investments of their time and resources. Good luck with that.I grew up very poor; my dad was a self-employed window washer and mom was a high-school teacher. After 25 years, he now owns his own successful janitorial company with several employees, and she will be opening her own school soon. They aren't rich, but they are very comfortable. When my wife and I got married we were poor. I was a janitor working for my dad at night for basically minimum wage and studying programming by day. We lived off ramen noodles and canned soup, and lived in the cheapest apartment we could find. But 5 years later, I now work as a programmer for a university and earn more than double what I did as a janitor, plus benefits. Instead of an apartment, we now own a large house with land. I went from being classified under the poverty line to "middle class". I'm still studying, and have plans to double my current salary again in the next few years. I'm also living on a budget that allows me to invest a portion of my income, so I can retire easily one day.It's very possible to better your position. It has everything to do with making good decisions, and nothing to do with what the rich guy down the street claims on his taxes.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 06:09:04 pm
content: again, we have to disagree. there are upper thresholds that are nearly impossible to get beyond and this is quite on purpose, too.the idea of 'work hard. work harder! you'll move up' is a bald faced lie. its a fable that does not exist anymore.those of us who have tried know this VERY well.what good is working when no one hires you? (I have been thru extended dry spells of unemployment and know this very first-hand. no matter how good your experience base is or your resume/cv, there are other barriers (which I won't mention right now) that put a cold hard stop on your upward mobility and your chances of getting even a make-ends-meet kind of job.for over 10 years, I have not had a raise (not even cost of living!). and I'm expected to take a CUT in salary on my next job, from everyone I have talked to in my field. meanwhile, costs of living have skyrocketed. at jobs I have worked, we lay off people and don't rehire. we ask people to work more hours for the same pay or even a pay CUT.don't lecture me about the land of opportunity. ITS A LIE. and its an insult to rub that in peoples' faces.

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 06:14:08 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 10, 2014, 06:09:04 pmWhat kind of work do you do?

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 06:38:40 pm
content: It sounds like you wouldn't be happy unless you became whatever you would classify as "rich". Learning to be content with what you have is great for one's stress level. Though I do work to better my position, I definitely don't stress over it. And most of my professional career no one would hire me to do anything more than scrub toilets.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 06:46:23 pm
content: no, I don't need or want to be 'rich'. I only want to be comfortable middle class, nothing more than that. I have modest needs; but I also don't want to worry about being thrown on the street if you get a bad sickness and your healthcare denies you essential treatment. the 'very rich' don't care about that; they can afford the best and so there is no incentive to fix the healthcare industry. not really. so, yes, I worry about being thrown on the streets if you miss too many house payments or if you run into some bad luck, health-wise.even being able to afford to BUY your own house; that is a luxury that many americans (myself included) can't have.dare I ask for a cost of living raise so I can get AHEAD of my monthly bills and try to actually save for the future? no, the employers are doing all they can to drive DOWN wages. this is the rich man's motive. the business owners and capitalists just don't care. compassion is not in their dictionary. if we miss our numbers for one quarter, we have to let a lot of the staff go. and it does not matter if the guy you let go is 'above that certain age' where you are damned near blacklisted for getting the next job.this is not a pleasant topic for me. I better exit this thread now before I say things I will regret.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 08:17:49 pm
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 10, 2014, 03:59:00 pmSuch a silly statistic to regurgitate. First of alll because it is factually untrue - secondly because even if it was true what would it prove - that yes, the richest people have all the money and pay some taxes??Imagine a system where the top 10% controlled 99.99% of the wealth. If they payed 10% in taxes and the other 90% of the population payed 25% of their meager income in taxes, what percentage of the overall taxes paid would come from the wealthy? Would anyone consider such a system fair?I happen to personally know the retired CEO of one of the largest US banks and the CEO of a multimillion dollar corporation listed on the NYSE. Both of them admit the tax system is skewed to favor the rich. Capital gains, carried interest, deferred compensation, loophole after loophole that only the wealthy can take advantage of. Who writes the tax code afterall? And of course if you're very rich, only trivial portions of your income go to sales taxes, property taxes, etc..

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2014, 11:51:05 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 06, 2014, 03:55:13 amDave, you've got upper management written all over you.

author: Steffen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2014, 05:43:09 pm
content: I'm from Germany, what radio button should I pick in order to fit it best to my education?I visited kindergarten, preschool, elementary and some sort of high school. (In that order) After this I successfully passed an 3,5 years apprenticeship as electronician for devices and systems. After that i started to work as that what I learned and after some time I went to evening school to become a state certified engineer for automation technology and energy. This education will end in the middle of this year after 3 years additional education.Does the poll only fit to citizens of the USA as I see the number of replies by members with USA-flag?

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2014, 05:59:06 pm
content: Quote from: Steffen on March 12, 2014, 05:43:09 pmHeck no, any country that uses the US education system is represented!

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2014, 06:38:51 pm
content: I didn't know what to put down as I am at sixth form studying chemistry physics and sociology, the option for sixth form I am in the uk I don't know why the us equivalent is.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2014, 06:46:55 pm
content: I'm not familiar with the UK system, but based on my British friends I know that A levels are probably somewhere between "some college" and "Associates Degree"I had 2 1/2 years of school studying for a Bachelors Degree, but couldn't afford it anymore and didn't want to go into >$20,000 debt, so I dropped out with just $2500 in debt (down to ~$1000 now). I have enough hours for an Associate Degree, but not the "correct" classes for it. I put myself down as "some college". I plan to go back to school this fall if possible to finish my Bachelors.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2014, 06:51:21 pm
content: Hell, there's no option for high school graduates without any college.Polls are inherently biased against high school graduates. TOOLS OF THE MAN

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2014, 07:06:36 pm
content: Quote from: electronics man on March 12, 2014, 06:38:51 pmWow, I am surprised you are able to study A level physics without also including A level maths. In the old days it would have been made a requirement to take maths alongside physics due to the high mathematics content of physics (or chemistry).As to the US equivalent, sixth form study in the UK would be the same age range as grades 11/12 in the US system, and would therefore line up with "some High School".

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2014, 09:18:15 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on March 12, 2014, 07:06:36 pmPhysics genrally teaches the maths that is needed and as for chemistry there is not a huge amount of maths and most unis dont even ask for it they mostly ask for physics or maths ir just another science.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2014, 09:27:31 pm
content: Quote from: electronics man on March 12, 2014, 09:18:15 pmDo you have a view to what you want to do after you leave school? Do you plan to go to university to study science or engineering, or will you seek more vocational training?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2014, 09:30:12 pm
content: Quote from: electronics man on March 12, 2014, 09:18:15 pmFWIW, calculus was a prerequisite for taking Physics I (science & engineer version) when I went through, and still seems to be based after looking over the catalog for a nephew currently attending here in the US (can take it simultaneously to meet this requirement).

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2014, 09:38:44 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on March 12, 2014, 09:27:31 pmStudy chemistry, I have offers from universities so just need grades now then I'm in.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2014, 09:53:36 pm
content: Quote from: electronics man on March 12, 2014, 09:38:44 pmSupposing you didn't opt for A level maths because you don't feel you are very mathematically inclined, you will still find there is a lot of maths in chemistry. It is surprising to me that some universities do not require an A level in maths as an entry requirement to study chemistry, but apparently it is so.I recommend you try to educate yourself in your own time on some more advanced mathematics up to at least AS level, if not the whole A level. In particular some basic calculus like derivatives and differential equations. Otherwise you are going to find the more mathematical parts of chemistry difficult to work with (physical chemistry, thermodynamics, chemical kinetics, to name just some).

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2014, 09:59:18 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on March 12, 2014, 09:53:36 pmdont worry physics has tought me a huge amount of maths plus there are "maths for chemists" modules that i will have to do they are about teaching the maths i will need. some unis make everyone do them even if they have maths.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2014, 10:13:05 pm
content: "maths for chemists" reminded me of a funny expression that we had while I was growing up. school athletes (called 'jocks' in US english) are known for being, well, not all that smart. but they still had to take some science courses.and so, if you were a sports guy and needed one of these 'easy' courses, you would take, for example, a geology course like:"rocks for jocks"(its annoying how many privs people in college sports get. we seem to reward some things and others, well, not so much. I always thought that was wrong, but I don't make the rules.)