Siglent SDS2104X with 2 GS/s - When does Rigol come with DS2104A? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 10:00:00 pm
content: Is it a correct understanding that the new Siglent SDS2104X is filling the gap where many Rigol users were looking for before?Rigol users are currently faced with a dilemma, to choose between DS1000Z series or DS2000A series.The need for 4 channels or only 2 channels, versus the standard sample rate or double the sample rate.Users have to pick between either having 4 channels and only 1 GS/s (DS1000Z series),or go for an increased sample rate of 2 GS/s but compromise with 2 channels (DS2000A series).If Rigol users really want a higher sample rate and 4 channels, they directly have to jump up to the DS4000 series.Many Rigol users have pointed out that they are looking for a Rigol DS2104A, to have a 2 GS/s scope with 4 channels.It seems that Siglent has identified that gap, by launching the SDS2004X series.This series only contains 4 channel models, while the old SDS2000 series contained 2 channel and 4 channel models.It is interesting to note, that Siglent actually has switched the properties of Rigol in their 1000 and 2000 series:Rigol DS1000Z series: 4 channels - 1 GS/s 1000 series have only 4 channelsRigol DS2000A series: 2 channels - 2 GS/s 2000 series have only 2 channelsSiglent SDS1000X series: 2 channels - 1 GS/s 1000 series have only 2 channelsSiglent SDS2000X series: 4 channels - 2 GS/s 2000 series have only 4 channelsSo now the big question: When is Rigol coming with a DS2004A series?This would be the 2GS/s version of the Rigol DS1004Z series.It seems that Rigol would actually have to come out with this model, as Siglent is currently filling the missing gap in the Rigol series, where many Rigol users have been looking for.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 10:03:31 pm
content: They're probably still looking for some ADCs they can overclock to 2Gsps

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 10:26:18 pm
content: Maybe not, but the difference in price is only around 250 EUR between Rigol DS2072A and Siglent SDS2074X.So you get 2 channels extra, for an additional 250 EUR.Moreover you can add the 16 channel logic analyzer to the Siglent SDS2074X with the external pod, which sells for around 340 EUR. You can not add an LA to the DS2000A series. Rigol does have a Plus version in the DS1000Z series, which is upgradeable, but AFAIK they don't have a Plus version in the DS2000A series.If we consider the comparison from an MSO perspective:You have a Siglent MSO SDS2074X with 4 channels for about 1000+340 = 1340 EUR, versus a Rigol MSO2072A with only 2 channels for 1000 EUR.So on the version without LA, you pay 250 EUR extra compared with Rigol to get the additional 2 analog channels.And on the version with LA, you pay 340 EUR extra compared with Rigol to get the additional 2 analog channels.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 10:29:12 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 04, 2015, 10:10:32 pmThe question should be "Does anyone frequently use more than 2 channels at the same time?"In my case, yes.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 10:34:18 pm
content: And then there is also the question whether Siglent is not overclocking and interleaving.In which series was Rigol using overclocking? And in which series was Rigol using interleaving?What about Siglent? Any specific details for the new SDS1000X and SDS2000X series?Like to have a better view on whether Siglent is using overclocking and/or interleaving.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 10:43:58 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on December 04, 2015, 10:34:18 pmhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-800-siglent-1000x-oscilloscope-teardown/

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 12:13:44 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 04, 2015, 10:10:32 pmYes. Yesterday and 5 minutes ago. If you ever use a scope with 4 channels you never ever want to go back to only 2 channels.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 05:13:04 pm
content: That's why some people are waiting for a Rigol DS2104AOr, they take the risk and go for the Siglent SDS2104X.But, my impression is that the Rigol software is more stable than the Siglent software.And I am actually surprised that the relatively new Siglent SDS2000 series now already is superseded with the Siglent SDS2000X series. When was the SDS2000 launched? Less than 2 years ago, isn't it?And they never released any stable software for it.What happened with the 4-5 years lifetime for their scope models, that the CEO of Siglent indicated during the interview with Dave Jones. Why did they already replace the SDS2000 in such a short time span? Was it because it was lacking memory, or what other features were lacking, to already justify a new series, in such a short timespan?Either now the SDS2000X series is doing much better in terms of software and SW update rates, or people really have to wait for the Rigol DS2104ABTW: Does anybody know what happened to the Siglent SDS3000 series? This series is not listed on their website at this moment, but they were talking about this series around the time the SDS2000 was launched. It was supposed to be the bigger brother of the SDS2000 series. But now it seem to have vanished completelyWhat happened to this series?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 05:38:12 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on December 06, 2015, 05:13:04 pmOr just get a scope (even a used one) from one of the big brands which at the end of the day is very likely to be much more reliable than anything the Chinese B-brands throw on the market.Just saying...QuoteThis has been discussed many times in this forum (there's a search function which would have given you plenty of threads about that scope), the SDS3000 is a scope that was developed in co-operation with LeCroy, which sells it under their own label as WaveSurfer 3000. The hardware is made by Siglent (with design help from LeCroy), the software however is made by LeCroy only (Siglent can't mess with it, which is a good thing considering how they suck at software). The agreement is that the scope is sold in China as Siglent SDS3000 by Siglent, and as LeCroy in the rest of the world. Which is why the SDS3000 is only listed in the Chinese portion of Siglent's website and not in the English area:http://www.siglent.com/oscilloscope/SDS3000The LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000 came on the market in Q2/2014 (and I assume the SDS3000 was put on the Chinese market at the same time). I had a WS3k for a day, and it's a very nice scope, with some advantages over other big brand scopes in its class.BTW, importing a SDS3000 from China could be possible, but is hardly worth it considering that the WS3k is already pretty cheap (it starts at roughly $3k), and unlike the Siglent import the LeCroy comes with international warranty and proper support through LeCroy.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 05:50:48 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 06, 2015, 05:38:12 pmBut then that A-brand scope needs to be a high-end model, as the low-end models are just rebranded Atten/Siglent scopes, such as the LeCroy WaveAce 1001.While some people on this forum keep recommending LeCroy scopes, as being the best scopes in the industry, not all of their scopes are performing well.Here is an example of a LeCroy scope, which is not performing well at all. And then imagine that this LeCroy WaveAce 1001 scope costs a fortune compared to the corresponding Siglent counterpartEven if the hardware and software is from Siglent, the scope carries the LeCroy brand, and this software should not have passed the LeCroy QA department.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 06:00:48 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on December 06, 2015, 05:50:48 pmNot really. Yes, the WaveAce Series are Siglent SDS1000CNL/CFL/CL rebadges and pretty much suck at the price LeCroy is asking for them (which has also been discussed to death in this forum, please use the search function!). They are OK-ish for the $300 or so the Siglent original is selling.But there are other alternatives, i.e. Keysight DSOX2k or the R&S Value Line (former Hameg) HMO Series, which are not just rebadges of Chinese B-brand scopes but are developed by the manufacturers in-house. The R&S Value Line is even produced in the EU (CZ). Both brands also offer some interesting features in their low end scopes.Then there's the 2nd hand market, where quite often for the price of a new Chinese B-brand scope you can find a newer big brand mid-range or even high-end scope.QuoteTrue. but then this was in 2012, and even these scopes have seen updates by Siglent (the whole scope is pretty much designed by Siglent, including the software). The thing to take away is that don't look at LeCroy for anything below the WaveSurfer Series (their mid-range scopes). Forget WaveAce or WaveJet. LeCroy was never well known for its entry level scopes, they are well known for their high end/ultra high end and mid-range scopes, and that is for a reason. They have no own products in the low end because they're not really interested in that segment, and other manufacturers serve the entry level much better.But as I said, there are other vendors. And Keysight and Hameg have pretty nice entry level scopes which don't suffer from most of the flaws of the Chinese b-brand scopes.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 06:24:13 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on December 06, 2015, 05:50:48 pm@Wuerstchenhund: Why didn't you comment on my remark about the QA department?Here is proof that even the high-end models of LeCroy are not doing so well!Moral of the story: There is no scope out there that is perfect!I agree with the previous poster, that the attitude about Chinese scopes is a bit too negative. And yes, if LeCroy uses Siglent as OEM manufacturer, that on it's own confirms that Siglent is not so bad after all.In fact, the more posts that I read about the high-class scope owners, the more the impression that I get is that they very well know that even in their scopes there are many bugs, but they just don't report them, as they don't want to admit, that they wasted a lot of money on something that has many flaws.It would be too embarrassing!By nature, nobody wants to admit that he made mistakes in budget spending

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 07:02:36 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 06, 2015, 06:16:42 pmYes, they are, i.e. LeCroy. The original WaveAce 100/200 Series were such pieces of junk that they had to take them back by the truckload, and it did put off some customers.The current WaveAce 1000/2000 are not great but at least they're somewhat useable (but still buggy). If I'd really wanted such a scope then I'd save a lot of money and go for the Siglent original, at least it's cheap.Quote"LeCrap". Did you come up with that alone or did your parents help you with that? Sounds like you're probably twelve years old based on your inabaility to deal with divergent opinions (and your "F words" can get you banned pretty quickly).BTW, I'm not rejecting Chinese brands per se, but after having the doubtful pleasure to use some of Siglent's and Rigol's stuff (plus the various devices in my direct environment) I've concluded that, while the hardware quality is generally quite good, both brands are still shit when it comes to software.Chinese B-brands are fine of you're looking for a cheap bottom-of-the-barrel scope (i.e. Rigol DS1054z, which is a steal), but for anything more demanding I wouldn't touch a Chinese B-brand with a barge pole.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 07:35:47 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on December 06, 2015, 06:24:13 pmBecause I thought I already addressed the points. You are right, LeCroy should have had a better handle on what they got from Siglent, and especially the WaveAce 100/200 scopes should have never been sold in the first place.I guess they learnt their lesson, as the SDS2000 did not become the next WaveJet (they went with Iwatsu again instead), and the WaveSurfer 3000/SDS3000 has Siglent producing the hardware only (something they are pretty good at) while the software is now out of Siglent's hands. Which seems to work pretty well, as the resulting scope is very good.QuoteAhem, you did check where the video comes from, didn't you? Because this is the channel ofKEYSIGHT OSCILLOSCOPESSeriously, I don't know why I even have to tell this, as any engineer worth its salt would check the source and recognize that these "ours-vs-theirs" videos are pretty much marketing BS. Of course the Keysight scope will look better, that's the whole point of that exercise.QuoteNo, the moral of the story is: check your sources and think first!QuoteWell, it#s obvious that I don't belong to your little Siglent fanclub, but I have had a lots of opportunities to see how Chinese B-brands perform compared to the big brands, and I'm sorry but unless we're looking at bottom-of-the-barrel scopes like the DS1000z then the B-brands are pretty lacking.And as to "Siglent is not so bad after all", maybe you should ask some of the SDS2000 owners (the ones that are not also Siglent distributors!) how they feel about that a scope that has been thrown on the market in a bugfest state roughly 18 months ago only received a somewhat mature firmware update last month (which also seems to come with its fair share of stupid bugs in major areas, if the v2 firmware thread is to be believed)? Or that a (pretty expensive) scope that was brought to market in 2011 (Rigol DS6000) still has various firmware bugs including non-working ETS in 2015?Seriously, if you believe that Siglent is "not that bad" then I'd say you have no idea about the standards the big brands deliver, even in this class.QuoteThat's silly. Yes, high end scopes have bugs, but these are mostly minor ones that only show up in very specific circumstances and rarely consist of true show stoppers that are common in Chinese B-brand scopes. Of course bugs get reported, why shouldn't they (and if you really think that the engineers that use these scopes have splashed out the $100k+ from their own pocket then you're living on a different planet). The difference is that these bugs get fixed very quickly, i.e. in weeks or even days (I've even received a fix in a matter of hours, althought that's an exception).There's a big difference in how the big brands solve these problems compared to the B-brands, and this is one area where having proper support pays off. The big brands know that software is at least as important as the hardware, while for the Chinese B-brands software is pretty much an afterthought (and that's not only visible in scopes, a lot of China brand devices come with buggy firmware). Just for fun, try to find out what has changed between the various firmware versions for Rigol or Siglent scopes, because at best you get a very vague list of some fixes, and most of the time you don't get any description whatsoever.However, I admit that this might be difficult to understand if all you know is Chinese B-brands. I also understand that for most hobbyists, a lower price is actually more important than a bug free or mature instrument. But don't assume that the same weighting is valid for other segments of the market as well.QuoteAs I said, that's a petty issue for hobbyists or individuals. In the professional world of high end scopes, if a product was shit or if the manufacturer doesn't support its product properly then successive business just goes somewhere else. Simples. Considering that these instruments are pretty expensive (i.e. we have some scopes that cost over $500k) and the overall volume is low, the big brands (maybe aside from Tek) make sure that their support is good.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 08:09:08 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 06, 2015, 07:50:01 pmDon't be such a drama queen, it makes you look stupid.I don't "bitch" on Chinese B-brands not because they are not as good as a high end scope. I "bitch" on them because they are pretty much inferior even when compared to big brand scopes in the same class (i.e. entry level). Do you really believe a Keysight DSOX2k or R&S HMO comes with the same number of firmware issues as Chinese B-brand scopes? No, they don't.At the end of the day, a scope is a test instrument, and to fulfill its purpose a test instrument must be reliable (within the constraints of its specs) otherwise it's pretty useless because if the waveform on the screen doesn't look like what you expect then you might end up hunting a problem that only exists in the scope's firmware. That might not much of a problem for a hobbyist, but once you have to use the scope to earn your living then these things become important.I noticed that you're in China, and I can understand that it might hurt your patriotic ego if someone says that something made in your country isn't good. But seriously, get over it! Ignoring the facts (which is that there's still a very large gap between Chinese B-brands and the big T&M brands) helps no-one, even less so the B-brands. Have a look at the Japanese, pretty much anything made in Japan is considered to be of high quality. That wasn't always the case, up to the '70s Japan was pretty much were China was today - world producer of cheap faff. But they learnt, adapted and embraced, and pretty much turned from a producer of low quality stuff to a source of some of the fines equipment in the world. I'm sure the Chinese can (and will) adapt, Rigol and Siglent already show that they can produce decent hardware, however as long as they ignore the software side they will remain a 2nd class brand.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 08:11:36 pm
content: I want to point out again here, that even a LeCroy scope with a price tag of 5000 USD has basic flaws:I know that the LeCroy scope is actually from Iwatsu, but also Iwatsu is recognized as an A-brand.The point which I want to make is that also A-brand scopes do have their flaws.When you spend 399 USD for a Rigol DS1054Z scope, you get a scope that gets down to 1mV/division, and which provides a very good intensity grading. In fact one of the best intensity grading implementations is on the Rigol! Maybe even better than Keysight!When you spend 5000 USD for a LeCroy Wavejet Touch 354 scope, you get a scope that gets only down to 2mV/division, and which does not even do a decent intensity grading! It even wastes vertical screen space for 4 measurements, even if you only select 1 measurement. And if the vertical menu on the right goes away, the display does not scale up to use the empty space. When you use the full memory depth, it starts to miss button presses on the touch screen or on the control panel. And it does not provide any decoding for serial, I2C and SPI. You need to buy the Logic Analyzer for this. So that means you need to spend even more than the 5000 USD which you already spent!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 08:27:28 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on December 06, 2015, 08:11:36 pmYeah, so what? I mean, I already said that with LeCroy you better ignore anything below the WaveSurfer Series, but then, even the WaveSurfer comes with less bugs than any of the Rigol scopes.QuoteNo-one said big brand scopes have no flaws. The point is that they don't have as many issues as the B-brands.QuoteAs I believe I mentioned in the thread to this video, the WaveJet is pretty much only in LeCroy's portfolio because certain customers want these scopes. They don't care for serial decode, or intensity grading, all they want is a sturdy portable 500MHz scope that is absolutely reliable. Plus it's one of the cheaper 500Mhz 4ch scopes on the market.QuoteYeah, great. You still get a 50MHz scope that you need to hack (which is only a great idea for hobbyists) to get higher bandwidth, and even then you only get a measly 150MHz or so. Plus the same rate drops to a meagre 250MSa/s on all channels while the WaveJet at least offers 500MHz bandwidth and 1GSa/s on all channels out of the box. And intensity grading is pretty irrelevant if the scope doesn't even see the signal because it doesn't have enough bandwidth (and no, I wouldn't consider the intensity grading of the DS1000z to be the best implementation, not even close).And I'm not even touching all the other bugs in the firmware of the DS1054z, or the absence of anything than the most basic support from Rigol.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 08:35:31 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 06, 2015, 08:24:48 pmThat's where Rigol and Siglent excel at. If you do 2+ hours measuring per day, definitely get a bug free one, even its hardware is not that stellar. For hobbyists demanding good hardware and can measure anything but don't care about how easy it was done, and do care about price, here is where Rigol survives.I know, and I said that at the absolute entry level the B-brands are unbeatable. The DS1054z is a steal, it can't get any better than that at that price. Even the Siglent SDS1000CNL/CML were good scopes for the $300 they went for (although these days I'd just spend the few bucks more and get the 4ch Rigol). There's no doubt about that.But that is pretty much the only market segment where the B-brands have an advantage. The more you climb up the ladder the less attractive the B-brands become, simply because this is where the big brands (not all of them, though) start to shine while the B-brands only offer slightly better variations of their bottom-of-the-barrel stuff.QuoteThat is all nice and well, but as we see the software side has been pretty much neglected, and even the best hardware is worthless if the software that controls it is crap. It may not matter so much for a $499 DS1064z, but it does matter once you spend $1500, $2500 or more on a scope, because poeple spending that lot of money on a scope rarely do it for hobby/fun.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 08:38:42 pm
content: @Wuerstchenhund: You don't seem to get my point.I believe that any scope from an A-brand above 3000 USD should be able to measure with 1mV per division or lower, and should have a decent intensity grading implemented. They should also appoint people with UX experience, to make sure that the things like taking up vertical screen space for measurements that you are not using, or using the display more effective. Still some A-brand manufacturers don't care.Even if the scope is very stable, but if it has basic features missing, one can wonder why they are so costly. Normally those extra features should be included in the price tag.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 08:53:30 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on December 06, 2015, 08:38:42 pmThat is your idea but many scopes 10 times more expensive don't have 1mV/div. For 1mV/div to be actually useful you'll also need proper probing techniques.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 08:54:00 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on December 06, 2015, 08:38:42 pmWell, you don't seem to get mine either it seems.QuoteAs I said, the WaveJet is bought by certain customers, and they don't care for 1mV/div or any other things that you personally consider important. If the scope wasn't bought you could be sure that LeCroy hadn't refreshed the WaveJet Series in 2014 and just cancelled it, but as it sells they seem to do something right.QuoteThe money is in the bandwidth, the amaöog front end, and the fact that it's made in Japan (a country which isn't exactly known for cheap labor these days), plus in the support (guranteed full support for 7 years after the scope goes out of production). Plus it's still cheap for a 4ch 500MHz 2GSa/s big brand scope.And it's not that the B-brands offer more for less money either:http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds4000/ds4054/Rigol wants $1500 more for the DS4054 and its better intensity grading and larger memory, although we're then also back at a scope with a lot more bugsBut reasonably, yes, the UI should have been better, the screen wider and with higher resolution, better intensity grading, more memory and so on. But guess what, that's already available from LeCroy (called WaveSurfer 3054). And at $6k it's even cheaper than the Rigol DS4054

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 09:09:58 pm
content: Okey, you have a point about the DS4000 seriesYou win the discussion!Maybe we should think in different terms, like.. what is the best scope currently on the market for hobbyists, and what is the best scope currently on the market for professional people.But regarding the Chinese scopes. All I keep reading is that the hardware is good, but that there are too many software bugs. I haven't read a lot about hardware bugs. At least not for the oscilloscopes. For the signal generators I have read about jitter issues in the end stage, etc.If it is really true that the hardware is okey, then the solution should be easy for the Chinese manufacturers. Hire some test engineers and software engineers from Europe.Imagine that Rigol or Siglent could produce bug free versions of their current hardware portfolio.Then they would be doing very good!The solution is so easy and so obvious. Still they don't act. Hard to understand for me.Last point which I want to highlight. Not related to the test and measurement industry, but to the telecom industry. I used to work for a big American company, producing professional telecom gear, like CMTS, video head-ends, consumer STB devices, etc. Many of their products contained so many bugs, unbelievable... But the Telco operators kept buying their products, just because they had a good name and reputation. Of course this could not continue like this forever, and eventually they lost market space, and now they are even almost gone. This is just an example, that even American multinationals can have quality control issues. Not only Chinese companies.

author: robert_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 12:08:09 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on December 06, 2015, 06:24:13 pmOr rather: Comparing apples and bananas of totally different price classes, and doing it wrong.Sure enough a 2.5Gs/s scope will get into trouble displaying a >500Mhz sinewave with RIS turned off and interpolation on to hide the fact there only are a few points per screen Thats what RIS is good for, display would be fine at 125GS/s ETS. Also sure enough a 40Gs/s scope is doing fine, being a 8bit 40Gs/S scope.Im not writing this to be pro-Lecroy, just im pretty fed up with typical Keysight "comparisons" that are entire BS.As for the Wavejet: Yes, its the second warmup of some obsolete technology. I wouldnt buy it, but there must be some customers.The original Wavejet wasnt too bad, in fact it did do well against the competition back then, which was a TDS3000. Better screen, 500k vs. noisy 10k analog storage, USB vs. floppy. Oh, for some totally unknown reason (probably the same reason as for the Wavejet, maybe they fould their way in some automated testers in large numbers?), the 2nd warmup of just this thing (TDS3000C) is still alive too, even though its crappy specs didnt improve at all.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 04:12:39 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on December 06, 2015, 09:09:58 pmWin? I didn't know this is some kind of competition.QuoteThere are already different terms, i.e. the market is divided in certain categories:* Lower Entry Level (aka 'bottom-of-the-barrel'): basic scopes with limited functionality for very cost-concious customers. That's also where the hobbyist market sits. Price is pretty much the most important parameter in that segment, which is pretty much dominated by B-brands. Examples are the Rigol DS1000z or the Siglent SDS1000 Series.* Upper Entry Level (aka 'low end'): basic scopes with standard functionality. This is mostly the small business and education sector, although it also includes hobbyists as well as large companies. That's the 'bread and butter' class, it's the segment in which most scopes are sold. Price is still important, but so are parameters like reliability, usability and (to some extend) features. Examples are the Keysight DSOX2k, the LeCroy WaveJet, and for the B-brands the Rigol DS2000/DS4000 or Siglent SDS2000(X).* Lower mid-range: scopes with faster sample rates and more advanced features (this is where scopes start to become real debugging machines instead of just waveform visualizers). Mostly bought by professionals that need more functionality than the entry level scopes offer. Price is usually only one if the parameters that are important for typical buyers. Examples are Keysight DSOX3k(T), Tek MDO3K, LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000, or the R&S RTM. For the B-brands there's pretty much only one scope that tries to compete in this class (Rigol DS6000), although in terms of performance and features it's much closer to a low end scope.* Upper mid-range: full platform scopes (i.e. Windows scopes) with some more advanced features. As before, these scopes are mostly bought by professionals and businesses. Examples include the Keysight DSOX4k/6k, the Tek MDO4k, the LeCroy WaveSurfer 10 and the R&S RTE.* Lower high-end: full platform scopes (i.e. Windows scopes) with advanced features, fast sample rates, large sample memory and bandwidths up to (at the moment roughly) 6 Ghz. Offer a very wide range of features including extensive signal analysis. Examples are the Keysight DSO9000/DSO-S/DSO-V, the LeCroy WaveRunner 6zi, and the R&S RTO.* Upper high end: full platform scopes with very fast sample rates (>50GSa/s) and bandwidths over (at the moment) roughly 6GHz. Inputs are pretty much 50 ohms only with high density RF connectors to cover the bandwidth. Analysis capabilities are upped another notch as well. Examples are the Keysight DSO90k/DSO-X/DSO-Z, or the LeCroy WavePro/WaveMaster/SDA Series.* Ultra high end: not really a segment as the only scope in this class is the LeCroy LabMaster Series, which is pretty unique and represents the limit of what can be achieved technologically today.QuoteWell, according to Rigol, some of the higher bandwidth DS4000 scopes suffer from a hardware issue, and there were a few hardware problems in Rigol DSA800 spectrum analyzers and Siglent SDG1000 AWGs, but overall the hardware produced by the B-brands is pretty good (which it should be, considering that none of them is exactly pushing any technological boundaries).Even the dreadful Siglent SDS2000 scope offers good hardware (the only fault I find is that the universal knob is too close to the trigger level knob, but that's it and that is more a design issue than a real hardware fault).QuoteProbably. A good example of what could be is the LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000 aka Siglent SDS3000, which combines Siglent's good hardware with proper software made by a big brand. Thanks to being made by Siglent, the WS3k is pretty cheap, and puts a lot of pressure on Keysight (the higher bandwidth WS3k models are several thousand dollars cheaper than the Keysight DSOX3kT equivalent, which in many key areas also has inferior specs).But it also shows that Siglent doesn't have sufficient expertise to roll such a project on their own without the help from a big brand. There's a lot more involved than just hiring a few software developers.QuoteI don't know. I guess the reason is that software is still considered of having no value in China (which is also why piracy is so rampant there). Which is not surprising, it took Western companies a long time to realize the importance of software.But at the end of the day, there's a reason why Siglent and Rigol can be cheaper than the big brands, simply because they cut corners, not just in their hardware but mainly in software, testing and support. The old saying "you get what you pay for" holds still true.QuoteYes, pretty much any company has had some issues with quality control. For example, I can't say that I'm overly impressed in some areas with the build quality of our company's DSOX4k scopes. LeCroy also has had quality issues with the older WaveRunner Xi and WaveSurfer Xs scopes.The difference is however how the problem is solved. LeCroy for example has moved production back to the US, with a stark improvement in build quality, and also has given scopes that were sent in for service most of the improvements (i.e. a new back housing with a stronger handle). Keysight also fixes any quality issues without a fuss. On the other side, it seems there still is no solution for the DS4000 issue the scope of a former colleague is suffering from.Edit:changed "the build quality of our DSOX4k scopes" to "the build quality of our company's DSOX4k scopes"

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 06:59:55 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 07, 2015, 04:12:39 pmTypo?Out of context?Or is there some disclosure of affiliation required?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 08:32:28 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on December 04, 2015, 10:00:00 pmDo you not get the SDS2000X is a HW revision of the existing SDS2000 series?Sure there have been enhancements of specs too, but the primary differences are 16 Ch MSO and an increase to 140 Mpts memory.Even the SDS2000 series has had its specs upgraded with the new V2 FW (variant of that used in the 2000X), so much so that its datasheets are no longer correct.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 08:55:46 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 08, 2015, 06:59:55 amare you talking about? What 'affiliation'?FYI: "our" means "the scopes 'we' (as a company) own"

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 09:05:45 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 08, 2015, 08:55:46 amThanks, the context in which you used "our" did not make that clear, not to me anway.Thanks for clearing that up, edit your post again if you think you should.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 10:34:28 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 06, 2015, 09:11:28 pm"Missing"? Seriously? Have you forgotten your own words from not too long ago (emphasis is mine):Quote from: blueskull on October 21, 2015, 12:25:19 amThat doesn't really sound like ETS is *missing*, does it? That's simply just another bug in Rigol's firmware.Not sure why you try to play it down (well, I guess I know, but as I said you should get rid of that patriotic apologism as it only taints your arguments).QuoteYes, because, unlike Rigol with the DS6000, Keysight never claimed the MSO3k to have ETS.But I'm not sure the half-arsed non-working implementation on the Rigol is really an advantage. All it does is to show that software quality control is obviously not of concern for Rigol.QuoteThe only thing the DS6000 has going for it is the large sample memory, the rest of the scope is just a joke in that price class. There are no analysis tools whatsoever in that scope aside from a simple mask testing (which is slow like hell because it's purely software). FFT as you stated yourself is embarrassingly poor, and so is the processing backend for a scope that Rigol wants several thousand grand worth of money. Serial decode is on the screen only and only supports a few very basic slow protocols (and even this simple implementation doesn't always work correctly).At the end of the day the DS6000 is pretty much just a blown-up DS4000 with more bandwidth and a higher sample rate, and that shows in every inch.QuoteOf course it's cheaper because the Rigol probe will be pretty much a throw-away item (try to get some spares in say 5 years from now). Initial prices can be deceptive as the true through-life costs contain a lot more than just the initial purchase costs.In addition, Keysight offers a wider choice of probes, plus you have a very good chance to find some on the 2nd hand market.QuoteI can't really complain about the Keysight standard probes (they're good enough for what passive probes are actually useful), but at the end of the day passive probes are pretty much a free give-away anyways, especially on a 1GHz scope. And it's pretty standard that for higher bandwidths the probe solution may very well cost more than the scope it is connected to.QuoteI agree that the MSOX3k is pretty expensive (overly so, Keysight is really milking it!), but that of course completely ignores that there are other alternatives.First, you could still buy a 2nd hand MSO3kA (which you should be able to get for a lot less than $10k) and buy some Keysight warrany for it which means you're still way below the $10k mark.However, there's also the question why not get something else instead. This is what $10k buys you from LeCroy:http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/wavesurfer10-datasheet.pdfIf you're lucky you might even get a ex-demo unit for closer to $7k to $8k.Yes, it's also noticeably cheaper than the Keysight DSOX3104T, and a lot more capable.Now tell me again, with a straight face, that the DS6000 is such a great contender in that price rangeQuoteYeah, sure. Tell that my former colleague who is fighting with various bugs on his DS6104 for over a year, because even many of the bugs that have finally been fixed in the DS4000 have not been fixed in the DS6000, i.e. the scope crashing in X/Y mode, crashing in hires mode, crashing when changing the time base in zoom mode, or occasionally hanging when scrolling through long memory or in zoom mode. BTW, all bugs are known to Rigol, but they can't give a date as to when (or if) they will be fixed.I'm sorry but if you believe that these are not severe bugs in a $10k scope then you're deluded.QuoteNot by any objective standard, really. Unless you don't care for the bugs.QuoteNo-one is talking about 20 year old Tek scopes (which were pretty poor even back then, Tek never had a good hand with digital scopes).Just to give you an idea, a while ago I bought a second hand LeCroy WavePro 7300A which was made in 2008:http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/pls/portallive/docs/1/7293022.PDFThat's 4Ch 3Ghz 20GSa/s scope with 48M memory. Mine came also with all the options, and as you can see the option list is quite long. If I remember right in 2008 the scope alone was around $35k, and the options would have added roughly another $100k on top of that.Last year that scope cost me around $5k. If I wanted warrant then I could buy say 3yr warranty for it from LeCroy and would be at around $7k for the whole package.Another forum member very recently bought a LeCroy refurbished WaveRunner 104MXi (4Ch 1GHz 10GSa/s) for around $3600, and this one also came with (almost) all available options:https://www.atecorp.com/ATECorp/media/pdfs/data-sheets/LeCroy-Waverunner-Xi_Series_Brochure.pdfIf I remember right it also came with LeCroy warranty.And thanks to the fact that LeCroy has not changed its probe interface (ProBus) since the '90s there's a really large range of probes to choose from, and because they don't carry the "Agilent" or "Tektronix" label 2nd hand ones are often dirt cheap (i.e. I bought a HPF1000 (1Ghz active probe) for around $130 or so)And as mentioned elsewhere I recently also bought a R&S RTM1054 for less than $2k (to replace my bug-ridden Siglent SDS2204), although this is 'just' a 500MHz scope:https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTM_bro_en.pdfBTW, the RTM is the first digital scope I've ever seen that offers a Z channel (brightness) input in X/Y mode, something that usually can only be found on analog scopes.These are just examples to give you rough some idea what I'm talking about when I say "2nd hand".QuoteFair enough, but at the end of the day that means you'll probably miss out on some of the best deals out there.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 10:54:26 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 08, 2015, 09:05:45 amI guess you wondered if I work for Keysight (which I don't) but as stated many times in the past I don't work for any T&M vendor (I'm sitting on the customer side of the chain).

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 01:55:49 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 08, 2015, 08:32:28 amIs it really a hardware revision as such, or a redesign? It would be interesting to compare the hardware in both scopes with an actual teardown.Note that I already expressed a concern about the SDS2000 (becoming obsolete), and its follow-up model SDS2000X (taking its place), in this thread before.Quote from: pascal_sweden on December 06, 2015, 05:13:04 pmMaybe Siglent should offer a mail-in rebate for existing users, where Siglent users can send in their SDS2000 scope (with unstable software) and exchange it for a counterpart SDS2000X scope (with more stable software, hopefully). In the event that they would support this (very unlikely), this would of course only work for SDS2000 users that bought a scope with 4 input channels

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 03:48:27 am
content: Please see the SDS2000X datasheet that lists the same 2 and 4 channel models will be available as the SDS2000 range:http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/DataSheet/SDS2000X_DataSheet_(4-CH).pdf

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 07:24:06 pm
content: I checked the datasheet, but it only lists 4 channel models as I expected.Where in the datasheet do you see a description about the 2 channel models?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 08:04:42 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on December 09, 2015, 07:24:06 pmHmmm, interesting. The datasheet I was sent pre-release DOES list 2 and 4 channel models, in fact the same selection that is available for the SDS2000 series.I've been told the next production run will be available just before Xmas so maybe 2 Ch models will be available then.But if you check the Siglent China website thereare2 Ch models listed:http://www.siglent.com/ENs/prodcut-detailxx.aspx?id=1243&tid=1&T=2

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 02:40:51 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 06, 2015, 07:35:47 pmAssuming that all Chinese DSO manufacturers are exactly the same - or that even all of their products are equivalent in terms of completion before being brought to market - is as silly as assuming the opposite about Western DSO manufacturers and their products.Since Rigol first introduced their DS2000, they have been exponentially faster at fixing bugs and providing updates for their newest DSOs than Siglent has (although granted, just as bad as ever at providing feedback to their customers or tackling remaining problems in their older products). It seems perhaps you might feel burned with your Siglent SDS2000 purchase, but my Rigol DS2000 has been working admirably since I purchased it in 2012 - and aside from bugs relating to SCPI input and the never-really-functioning "Anti-Alias feature" - the DSO hasneversuffered from non-working features or bugs that prevent/inhibit my continual use of it.