3 cent blinky what else can it do? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 07:33:49 am
content: Can it run Crisys or windows 10 at 4k 60 fps?So it seems like a digital answer to a 555? But unlike a 555 you have multiple outs and can make pwm and different saw tooth square sine waves? Each pin could be different? Does it have input pins that would trigger an out put pin?What would you use this for besides blinking a light; which you would just use a 555 because no programing (unless you are making a product and its cheaper, no external parts like the 555/faster to program it)?I see all these chips but can never figure out what they would be good for. Could you take its output and amplify it up to a useable current for driving much bigger LEDs or mechanical things like relays?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 08:24:47 am
content: Seriously, you need to sit down talk seriously with your boy friend about his TLC for you, feel sorry & pity.

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 09:32:49 am
content: It has 1 k flash and 64 bytes RAM and can output PWM signals. This is more RAM than the ATTiny9 has and you can play music with it:So add a battery and a piezo speaker, and you'll have one of these greeting cards for less than a buck. Sell it for 2 bucks -> profit!Such microcontrollers are useful in many other small applications as well, like one of these LED flashlights with a button, where it changes the intensity with PWM by pushing a button. You can individually program which pins are input and which pins are output. But in output mode the pins of the PMS150C can only drive 14.5 mA, so no high current pin unlike some PIC microcontrollers have. If you want to drive higher currents, you would need an additional external transistor, e.g. for controlling motors for toys.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 10:44:18 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on October 27, 2018, 08:24:47 amI didn't realize it was a micro from the title. Seemed like some purpose built part for leds. Never even thought you could have a 3 cent micro, that's what threw me off, but that's also why this video is relevant we have semi complex chips for less then the cost of the parts that support them much less.So you can basically do anything with it. That's a question I still struggle to answer to lay people when they say "cool an Arduino, but whats it do?" Then I try to think of real world examples still not fully understanding how much they can do and what they can't.How much would this part cost in the 1980's or 70's would it be like an alter8800?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 10:53:21 am
content: Quote from: FrankBuss on October 27, 2018, 09:32:49 amThat's likely what most of them are doing inside cheap toys and singing birthday cards.

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 12:23:54 pm
content: This whole thing seems like some kind of publicity stunt to promote a product. I remember getting a greeting card from one of friends in 1990 with one of these chips in it.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 12:44:14 pm
content: I am seriously considering whether these could be programmed to create a small and inexpensive replacement for the obsolete National/TI LM3915 (and LM3916) with one or more serial to parallel LED drivers as the output.Ref:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/replacement-for-lm3915/

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 01:06:40 pm
content: Quote from: Beamin on October 28, 2018, 10:44:18 amIt's only been the topic of three blog videos now.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 01:41:39 pm
content: Buck, Boost, Inverter, etc... are well with in their spec!

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 05:09:24 pm
content: The are quite a lot of simple things that could be done with such a micro. For small control jobs 64 Bytes of RAM and 1 kBytes code (PROM) is sufficient. So things like a simple timer / delay , PWM control.One can do quite a lot with surprisingly little code. 1 K is already quite a lot for Assembler. My reciprocal counter use 2 K (including display driving), a simple pulse hight analyzer some 200 Bytes, including a soft UART.However I don' understand Dave's large interest. The low price is only really relevant in large quantities - that is 10K and up. Especially for hobby use and thus usually only a few units, a flash based unit is much more suitable, especially as the programmer can be much cheaper.The big limitation is being OTP - so add a socket or adapter board to the price and it is no longer cheap.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 05:39:22 pm
content: Quote from: joseph nicholas on October 28, 2018, 12:23:54 pmIn 1990 that was probably a mask programmed ASIC, not a microcontroller.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 05:43:12 pm
content: Tha Pakauk PFS154 in reprogammable using PDK5S-P-003 programmer.http://www.padauk.com.tw/upload/doc/PFS154%20datasheet_v002_EN_20180123.pdf

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 07:36:09 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on October 28, 2018, 05:09:24 pmI can imagine exactly the same discussion about the ATmega168 as Banzi, Cuartielles, Igoe, Martino, Mellis, et.al. was developing the Arduino. Or how the ESP family burst from Asian OEM obscurity into an Arduino-like ecosystem of its own. Even if those things cost 5x or even 10x as much in small quantities, they are still dirt-cheap (BrEnglish: "cheap as chips").Of course there are re-programmable versions. The first one that we know about just happens to be an OTP member of a rather large family.

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 10:35:21 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on October 28, 2018, 05:43:12 pmBut it costs 8 cents in larger quantities:https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Others_PADAUK-Tech-PFS154-S16_C317613.htmlYou can get an ATTiny for $23 cent from Digikey:https://www.digikey.de/short/j03vmdUnless you plan to sell a million of it, the price difference doesn't really matter, because with the Padauk chip, the development time might be worth more than you would save. And I very much prefer the Atmel Studio IDE over the Padauk IDE, and the AVR architecture has a lot bigger community who can help, and it is easier to get it, and pre-programmed from Microchip itself, even for like 100 pieces. But maybe Dave wants to create some gadget which sells a million times, who knows.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2018, 07:40:31 am
content: QuoteNice find... Still no documentation of programming algorithms, but at least the datasheet tells you which pins are used (PA 3,5,6.)

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2018, 11:02:19 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 28, 2018, 01:06:40 pmWhen I saw the 3 cents my brain just said no way that's a real micro processor. I thought it was something else. Sometimes I don't see the other topics like the one right below this one ! Oops!So if they had these in birthday cards in the 90's; I remember getting one when I was 10 and taking it apart to find a coin cell, piezo speaker, blob on chip, and a "Switch" that was in the fold of the card.Wouldn't that have also been a 3 cent micro? Or was that a purpose built chip that could only play tones through a speaker and nothing else? If so its 25 years past due.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 12:50:31 am
content: It's extremely unlikely that a musical greeting card would have used a microcontroller. It would have been a custom IC consisting of an oscillator driving a counter addressing a crude mask programmed ROM that would select the notes from a divider driven by the same oscillator. Very simple, just a digital music box.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 02:26:22 am
content: Quote from: Beamin on October 28, 2018, 10:44:18 amIt has Micro in the title and description. And I've done two previous videos with "micro" in the title and description.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 03:16:08 pm
content: I've found plenty of uses for 'Arduino' - granted I am using the plain Atmel micro and not embedding a whole Arduino board of any sort in my projects. But I do use the full Arduino boards for prototyping (darn, thought I had taken a picture of my breadboarded project, guess not). Soon as I get the schematics all drawn up I'll post them.Another thing to do is provide some sequenced lighting for buildings on my model railroad. Likely be using some ATTiny micros for this, but these little 3 to 5 cent jobbies could do it easily as well. It just may not be worth it to invest in another infrastructure though, I'd need to make a LOT to make up the price difference for the cheapest ATTinys. Have to see what David2 comes up with in regards to an open source way to program the Padauks. I already have everything needed to program ATTiny.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 03:18:33 pm
content: You can make a blinky with just one transistor.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 08:21:07 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on October 30, 2018, 03:18:33 pmOr a single RCA CDP1802 CMOS microprocessor. Yes, nothing but an LED and a 40 pin, 8 bit microprocessor. And the result draws less power than an LED with an LM3909 blinker.Obvious impractical, but it was a thought exercise many years ago and it was actually made, and works.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 11:28:01 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on October 30, 2018, 08:21:07 pmLM3909 Another useful chip that TI decided to kill off for no apparent reason.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 01:32:04 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on October 30, 2018, 11:28:01 pmDon't know, nothing a NE555, a HEX inverter or a comparator/opamp can't do.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 01:55:28 am
content: You can make individually addressable RGB LEDs to turn into a LED screen. Or hanging lights, like those christmas lights that change colors in patterns. Thats quite cool.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 02:08:28 am
content: QuoteThe LM3909 was discontinued long before TI acquired National Semi? (I can find posts describing it as "long out of production" in 2003; the TI acquisition was in 2011...)It was more-or-less rendered obsolete by advances in LEDs, Batteries, low-voltage low-power circuitry, and boost-mode voltage regulation anyway.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 02:11:01 pm
content: Yeah, once they started selling LEDs with the blinky circuit already embedded in them, it was all but over for a dedicated 8 pin PDIP like the LM3909.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 02:27:34 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on October 31, 2018, 02:08:28 amThere are only 3 reasons a chip goes obsolete at most vendors:It has been truly superceded by a drop in replacement.They are only selling a handful of parts, and it is unrealistic to keep the part listed.The only fab which can make it is closing, and the cost of re-engineering it for another fab is prohibitive for the market size.All 3 possibilities mean very few customers are seriously affected. Those who are affected are typically handled through lifetime buy notices from the vendor before the part is dropped, and one of the specialist long term support companies who hold die banks or stocks of completed parts in controlled conditions that minimise degradation. Those guys are pricey, though. A lifetime buy is normally a far better choice for the customer.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 07:08:16 am
content: I never really got the excitement over the LM3909. I had one when they were newish, it was interesting to play with but it's not *that* remarkable to be able to blink an LED off a single cell. Yes it can be used for a bunch of other hacks but none of those projects jump out at me as being terribly useful. When designed it was envisioned that it would be built into millions of flashlights to make them easier to find in the dark but that never really happened. I think the only commercial project I've ever seen one in was the box of a Pink Floyd album and that's hardly the sort of volume that will keep an IC in production.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 07:50:29 am
content: The Lm3909 had extremely low operating current

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 09:58:40 pm
content: Yes but so what? What was really a good volume use case for it? What commercial products have you seen that used it? Is there really a big value in having a blinking light on every flashlight? To sustain a specialized IC like that, it needs to have multiple high volume uses.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2018, 06:49:50 am
content: The LM3909 was not a cheap IC, nor was the the supporting circuitry (it needed a "big" capacitor.)On top of that, it produced really wimpy flashes (you know: discharging a 300uF through the LED, essentially.)Anyone who wanted a blink LED found it cheaper and better to just add a second battery cell, or use a lithium cell.It was sort-of neat, but a Joule Thief is neater. (Is there a flashing Joule Thief?)(There have been some interesting circuits posted of semi-conventional microcontroller circuits that drive their own step-up converter to allow them to run off a single cell, after an initial button-press provides the first pulse of high-enough voltage. These days you can get microcontrollers with built-in boost regulators and/or very low-voltage operation, so a primitive circuit that does little more than flash an LED isn't all that interesting. (although the people who think that a 555 can "do the same thing" as a 3909 are missing the point...)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2018, 11:28:43 am
content: Quote from: westfw on November 03, 2018, 06:49:50 amAlljoule thieves flash.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 01:03:18 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 30, 2018, 02:26:22 am

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 01:08:06 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 30, 2018, 02:26:22 amYes but I think I have been on this board long enough to for you guys to know that saying something 3 times in the title and multiple videos and … I still don't get it.One day I may even figure out this e=IR Einstein equation nonsense, or that Roy G. Biv guy they keep talking about. Who is roy did he invent the resistor? Also what value of resistor can be substituted for a capacitor? 47 instead of 50? Looks like I'm 3 electrons short of a full deck.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 05:04:26 am
content: Quote from: Beamin on November 04, 2018, 01:08:06 amIndeed.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 11:26:24 am
content: Quote from: drussell on November 04, 2018, 05:04:26 am"Deck"?Maybe it could be: "3 electrons short of a full charge".

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 04:35:25 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 04, 2018, 11:26:24 amIts an American expression. Your flag in your profile is a black X so I don't know what language you speak...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 05:44:05 pm
content: Quote from: Beamin on November 04, 2018, 04:35:25 pmI believe "deck" usually refers to playing cards in the USA, which don't have electrons.I'm just trying to make an EE version of the expression, how about "3 electrons short of a joule"?