Ultraheat Pro:    Snake  oil highly efficient heater.... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2022, 06:09:17 pm
content: Hi,The following Ultraheat pro is being marketed as the answer to the gas crisis and high energy bills this winter.....https://buy-ultraheat.com/reviews/ultraheatpro/uk/int1j2v4b/?key=kbsgpj1kkt2y4xfyfd2c&campid=18348295147&adgroupid=140891901109&adid=622078235691&placement_network=@g&keyword=ultra%20heat%20pro&matchtype=e&cacheBuster=14651626834033667901&gclid=Cj0KCQjw1bqZBhDXARIsANTjCPJtpzF015EVWjyAwI8TffrMiTr_6sLprML8y9XgMNQrfMErp4pfy_YaAsFyEALw_wcBSurely just a lot of nonsense.No better than any other convection heaterWould you agree?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 24, 2022, 06:16:32 pm
content: Any electric heater is 100% efficient which says it all. You cannot go above that unless it's a heat pump which of course requires indoor and outdoor units connected together with tubes.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2022, 06:27:16 pm
content: QuoteWow, a fan heater that sucks in room air and blows it out hotter - that's inovativeI suppose you could argue that blowing hot air directly at you rather than the room in general would make youfeelwarmer, but it's not going to be more efficient than the existing 100%. The dry air and faint smell of burning dust won't be that pleasant though.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2022, 07:03:25 pm
content: I was given one of those a couple of years ago and it wasn't to heat rooms up. It was used to keep something nearby warm if the heating went off below a certain temperature but no longer needed.I used it as a little handwarmer only for a couple of minutes attimes in the winter where the plug socket was just above my worktop and he heating didn't work due to an airlock in the tiny flexible plastic pipe chosen to connect the radiator in the extension by the previous occupants.Unfortunately the metal earth pin snapped off a year later.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2022, 07:07:14 pm
content: Well, some claims don't make sense and some are obvious.Does a fan heater warm up a room faster than a heater without fan? Sure. As long as the room is small enough for a given fan heater. If not, it's only going to be noticeable close to the fan heater itself.But is it more "efficient"? If we speak about maintaining a given indoor temperature for a given outdoor temperature in steady state, nope. Of course not. The difference will just be 1/ either temporary (while the room is heating and temperature hasn't reached steady state), or 2/ just as a "feeling" if you're sitting next to the heater. But then if you want more efficient just for your own personal feel and not for the actual whole room , you could wear a heated vest or something. That'll do nada for the indoor temperature but it'll sure make you feel warmer while consuming less power.And otherwise, sure we are going to see thousands of fricking stupid products and startups flourish with this whole made-up energy crisis. It was already bordering ridiculous (with all those solar roadways and graphene bullshit), but I'm sensing that it's going to reach a whole new level.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2022, 08:04:11 pm
content: All fake reviews as well:Ingrid BKlaus. A

author: www.MKRD.info
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2022, 10:19:40 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on September 24, 2022, 06:16:32 pmBut did you know that every computer is also a 99.9% efficient space heater as well???

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 01:27:10 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on September 24, 2022, 06:16:32 pmOne could have a heat pump that heats up one part of the room while cooling down another part.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 01:46:37 pm
content: These are just cheap and nasty plug-in PTC element fan heaters. Very small heating capability and certainly not worth anything like £59.99 ! More like £5.99 in the Pound ShopThink "plug in hand warmer" and you will not be far offThey used to have adverts for things like this in the back of national newspapers..... fishing for fools who are easily parted from their money. Now you see them popping up all over Facebook. Just do your due diligence checks and you find them coming out of ASIA far cheaper than advertised on Facebook.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 01:50:32 pm
content: Amazon sell these fro £23.49 and at least the seller on Amazon is honest about the power output (maybe). They say 500W.https://www.amazon.co.uk/STAYWARM-500w-Plugin-Heater-White/dp/B07L7CCQHV/ref=asc_df_B07L7CCQHV/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=330916248925&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6974073431973531170&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006933&hvtargid=pla-680870281594&psc=1

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 01:55:54 pm
content: I wasn't wrong about the real value of these units ! ....... £8.22 delivered to the UKhttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001598997882.html?_randl_currency=GBP&_randl_shipto=GB&src=google&memo1=freelisting&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=708-803-3821&slnk=&plac=&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&albagn=888888&isSmbAutoCall=false&needSmbHouyi=false&albcp=17859472963&albag=&trgt=&crea=en1005001598997882&netw=x&device=c&albpg=&albpd=en1005001598997882&gclid=CjwKCAjwm8WZBhBUEiwA178UnGs2EY2HjF5gFn0T35rDCw1STqFrdh3GsOgWlN95pogIj3qIHPdoZxoCOA8QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&aff_fcid=729fe8d85af6461fbc430416652b4d11-1664200467575-06142-UneMJZVf&aff_fsk=UneMJZVf&aff_platform=aaf&sk=UneMJZVf&aff_trace_key=729fe8d85af6461fbc430416652b4d11-1664200467575-06142-UneMJZVf&terminal_id=1e99b2d0e0184d70ac4bdf746f424ae8&afSmartRedirect=yI certainly would not think of leaving one of these things unattended or sleeping in a house where one was left running on its timer !

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 02:40:05 pm
content: For a fan heater that can actually put some decent thermal energy into a room, you could do worse than the simple 2KW heaters available from Amazon. Some use conventional heating elements and others use PTC heating modules. There is nothing magic about PTC heater modules and nothing wrong with conventional heating elements ! Both convert electricity into thermal energy that may be pushed in a direction by a suitable fan. Neither technology is particularly great for heating a large room and these are better suited to directional heating towards the room occupant.https://www.amazon.co.uk/Aspect-Portable-Lightweight-Adjustable-Thermostat/dp/B09QCY993Z/ref=sr_1_16?crid=V89UI3IBG15R&keywords=2kw%2Bfan%2Bheater&qid=1664202227&qu=eyJxc2MiOiI1LjQyIiwicXNhIjoiNC45MyIsInFzcCI6IjQuNzEifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=2kw%2Bfan%2Bheater%2Caps%2C176&sr=8-16&th=1https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pro-Breeze-Ceramic-Heater-Built/dp/B089M8R6ZJ/ref=sxin_15?asc_contentid=amzn1.osa.bc6995fe-cc88-4e41-8c2e-8c9e61316b8f.A1F83G8C2ARO7P.en_GB&asc_contenttype=article&ascsubtag=amzn1.osa.bc6995fe-cc88-4e41-8c2e-8c9e61316b8f.A1F83G8C2ARO7P.en_GB&content-id=amzn1.sym.b5c831cd-6cc6-43ae-a983-386a9534fba5%3Aamzn1.sym.b5c831cd-6cc6-43ae-a983-386a9534fba5&creativeASIN=B089M8R6ZJ&crid=V89UI3IBG15R&cv_ct_cx=2kw%2Bfan%2Bheater&cv_ct_id=amzn1.osa.bc6995fe-cc88-4e41-8c2e-8c9e61316b8f.A1F83G8C2ARO7P.en_GB&cv_ct_pg=search&cv_ct_we=asin&cv_ct_wn=osp-single-source-all-asins&keywords=2kw%2Bfan%2Bheater&linkCode=oas&pd_rd_i=B089M8R6ZJ&pd_rd_r=6dd01d1b-5e40-4474-8e2b-fab7eb9232cf&pd_rd_w=Fh8bR&pd_rd_wg=EPHUF&pf_rd_p=b5c831cd-6cc6-43ae-a983-386a9534fba5&pf_rd_r=ZECQ6V0WF4M7H4DX2QTD&qid=1664203116&qu=eyJxc2MiOiI1LjQyIiwicXNhIjoiNC45MyIsInFzcCI6IjQuNzEifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=2kw%2Bfan%2Bheater%2Caps%2C176&sr=1-4-887d48f0-d798-4604-a3e5-14d9d204cf06&tag=offersbloguk-21&th=1For room heating it is actually better to use a convection heater, with special mention for oil filled convection heaters. They create the same thermal energy as their equivalent fan heaters but they create a far nicer warming effect as the oil continues to emit heat whilst the thermostat is off, and this is nicer than the hot on/off effect of a fan heater. With oil filled heaters you do need to switch them on earlier than a fan heater to gain the best effect however.De'Longhi Dragon Oil filled Heaters have an excellent reputation and I use them in the lab and in the conservatory. They are not cheap but they last and perform excellently. Cheaper models are available but some have a less than great reputation so do check the reviews before buying. I personally avoid any with a digital timer and elected to buy the type with a simple mechanical timer. This was important for Winter as I set my heaters to a low temperature to keep things ticking over temperature wise. If the power drops out, the mechanical timer just restarts when power is restored and the heating period gets shifted the time that the power was off. The De'Longhi Dragon model that has a digital clock/timer has been criticised as it has no battery backup for power outages and resets itself. The result is no timer settings = no heating ! Not great if you are away on holiday and do not want the lab getting too cold.https://www.amazon.co.uk/DeLonghi-Dragon-TRD40820T-Filled-Radiator/dp/B00CA1T07G/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1W8H7QAVTD3W7&keywords=dragon+heater&qid=1664203221&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIzLjA4IiwicXNhIjoiMi4zNiIsInFzcCI6IjEuNjgifQ%3D%3D&s=kitchen&sprefix=dragon+heater%2Ckitchen%2C49&sr=1-4Regarding the OP's post and that awful little hand warmer..... Using electricity to create heat is not going to be particularly cheap in any form except where you generate your own electricity. Watts cost money no matter if they are pure electricity Watts or the BTU's created from that electricity. Heat Energy has to be created and a certain amount of that energy is needed to heat a room of a specified size to a specified average temperature. No amount of cheap fan heater snake oil "heat recycling" can change that. Are they seriously trying to suggest that their unit is like some sort of air turbo charger providing improved heating for nothing ?Typical marketing guff.Fraser

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 02:49:44 pm
content: Oil heaters are somewhat a scam too. Their stated power rating usually is only true while they are heating up. Once they reach certain temperature, thermal switch disconnects part of the heater so actual power usually is only about 1/3 - 1/2 of the rated.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 03:24:53 pm
content: Wraper,Indeed, oil heaters work differently to fan heaters but this is why they are recommended for heating a room, rather than the occupant of a room (directional heaters). The Oil is heated to its operating temperature, the exterior room temperature thermostat opens and the power to the heater is disconnected. The Stored thermal energy in the oil continues to be emitted into the room until the thermostat determines that the heating element is required again to top up the energy in the oil. It provides a nice gentle thermal cycle. This is where some oil heaters are better than others though...the De'Longhi Dragon Oil heaters contain powerful heating elements to quickly replenish the thermal energy in the oil that was lost between heating cycles. The size of the Dragon heater is matched to the room volume so that the heating process is pleasant for the occupant. Hence why you have to turn on an oil heater a decent time before wanting the room at the set temperature. The emitted heat is pretty constant and the built in heating elements just top it up as needed when the room temperature starts to drop. The key to selecting such a heater is to observe the manufacturers room size guidance and NOT to use just the heater Wattage rating. From memory my Dragon has three wattage settings and uses two heating elements (Heater 1/ Heater 2 / Heater 1+2). Heater 1 is1KW900W, Heater 2 is2KW1100W. I have checked the three settings current draw and the wattage consumed whilst the heaters were on was as specified by De-Longhi. So at least they are not fibbing in their specs BUT as you say, that is the wattage when the heater is on and not the BTU output of the complete heater per hour.Fraser

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 03:45:19 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on September 26, 2022, 03:24:53 pmThat is entirely different thing. What I said has nothing to do with thermostat where you adjust temperature. What I said is that 1500W heater becomes a 600W heater after 10 minutes of operation even if it's still cold in the room. Thermostat is a different thing which completely disconnects the heater when required temperature is reached.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 03:59:47 pm
content: Sorry I misunderstood you. That certainly is not the case with the De’Longhi Dragon that I use as I have previously tested its power consumption in order to estimate daily running costs. Wattage remained at the set value until the thermostat opened. This could well be why people said the Dragon worked well, yet similarly power rated, cheaper, models were criticised for poor performance. Like many things in life, you likely get what you pay for. The Dragons cost me around £120 each many years ago. They certainly work well for me. No complaints at all.Thanks for raising this issue Wraper as I have been wondering why some oil heaters perform better than others yet have the same wattage rating and appearance.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 04:03:38 pm
content: Wraper,I just looked at the video you referenced…… those are exactly the types of oil filled radiator that should be avoided ! Cheap and nasty and the sort that I have read poor reviews about. Mine are most definitely a better design but then they cost a lot more to buy. I went for heating performance rather than lowest price and I do not regret it.I think it should be stated that the way the oil filled heaters worked in that example video is not how a traditional oil filled electric radiator is supposed to work. Those units were basically cheap junk that was not fit for purpose….. a bit like the mini PTC fan heater at the top of this thread really.Thanks again for telling me about the issues found in some oil heatersFraser

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 04:10:32 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on September 26, 2022, 04:03:38 pmMy way more expensive oil heater with digital controller which I purchased for EUR 150 has exactly the same issue. You simply cannot dissipate so much power in this size while using passive convection.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 04:24:21 pm
content: Time to get my wattage meter out and test my Dragons again !Fraser

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 04:31:30 pm
content: IMHO the only way Dragon can deliver true power if it has larger size for the same power rating. I don't recall if I measured true power of my Mill heater but it certainly has that thermal switch clicking. EDIT: it's actually even more expensive now. Cheapest I foundhttps://www.currys.co.uk/products/mill-abh1000dn-oilfilled-radiator-white-10225369.html?searchTerm=MILL%20AB-H1500EDIT2: wrong model in the link, mine is 1.5kW.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 05:00:05 pm
content: I agree. This has got me thinking ! It was over 10 years ago that I bought the Dragons and I may have tested them only on the lowest wattage setting and in the winter, that may have skewed my understanding of how they were working.At the end of the day, to operate safely, without boiling the oil, you can only put as much energy into the unit as it can lose in convection. That makes sense to me. The oil must have a thermostat controlling the heaters to avoid an over temperature situation. So, as you say, the only way the Dragons can perform better is for them to have a greater surface area open to convection air currents plus a bit of radiation thrown in for good measureThe Dragons were advertised as having a high efficiency “chimney” design that is basically enclosed sides with vertical “chimney” tubes. Whether that improves efficiency, I have no idea, but I suspect it just slightly increased the surface area and possibly encouraged faster rise of air through the chimneys ? I never really studied the design. I have heard of cheap oil heaters having issues with weird sounds (boiling oil ?) and an oily smell ! That said, I read reviews of Dragons where people claimed that they could smell oilI will take a look at the Dragon that is in our Conservatory and take more interest in its operation. Surface temperature would be interesting and the behaviour of the three power switch positions needs investigating. I can understand that once the oil is at its safe operating temperature, the selection of a higher power heating element should do nothing as the operating temperature has been achieved. A higher heater power selection would just replace lost heat from the oil quicker and also decrease the time taken to initially raise the oil temperature from ambient to operating temperature.I would never have thought I would be thinking so much about my humble oil filled radiatorsGood stuff though….. I am learning from this threadFraser

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 06:34:50 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on September 26, 2022, 05:00:05 pmSounds like the typical psychosomatic crap that people who don't understand the technology spout. These things (the good quality ones like your DeLonghi units at least) will be filled with mineral oil, which is odourless.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 06:59:51 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 26, 2022, 06:34:50 pmThere are a lot of mineral oils and most of them have a strong odor. And even types which are completely odorless become smelly after years pass. Considering oil gets very hot in the radiator, I would assume even odorless oil will somewhat decompose and become smelly. Not to say I really doubt radiators are usually filled with more expensive odorless oil rather than some cheaper stuff as radiators are sealed anyway. If there is some smell, it means either there is a problem with sealing or some oil contamination was left outside if radiator during manufacturing which starts to smell when heated up.Here is a video where a guy takes it apart. At 4:45 he says it smells like an automotive garage.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 07:03:57 pm
content: I have just completed the testing of my De’Longhi Dragon 4 oil filled heater and here are the results………Dragon 4 power settings : 900W/1100W/2000WThe test was carried out at the 2000W settingAmbient temperature for the test was : 19.6CTime. Power draw. Top of oil chamber. Inside Chimney (air). Outside surface of chimney10min. 1950W. 110C. - -15Min. 1945W. 130C. 98C. -20Min. 1920W. 148C. 108C. -25Min. 1940W. 160C. 108C. -30Min. 1930W. 169C. 107C. -35Min. 1937W. 173C. 108C. -40Min. 1930W. 176C. 108C. 94C45Min. 1922W. 178C. 107C. 94CSo the test was performed using two known accurate thermocouple thermometers from ETI and associated thermocouple probes. One rested on top of the oil chamber and the other was an air probe placed in one of the chimneys. A third probe was used to check the exterior temperature of the side panel/chimney.The results are interesting. Thermal equilibrium occurred at around 45 minutes with the oil chamber temperature probe delivering a reading of 178C. At that temperature the chimney under test registered an air temperature of 107C and the exterior wall of the chimney read 94C on a surface contact probe thermometer.Throughout the test, the heater was set to its highest power level (3) and at no time did the power draw become interrupted by any thermostat action. The Dragon 4 delivers the 2KW power draw specified until such time as the ambient temperature thermostat disconnects the power to the heaters.At the end of a 46 minute test the accumulated power consumption read 1.461KWh.That is approximately 2KWh for the full hour.The stated Wattages of the heaters when cool correlated well with live measurements of 904W/1120W/2000WI think we can now see why the Dragon 4 oil filled heater has a good reputation. It runs nice and hot and has no daft behaviour such as shown in the video referenced by Wrapper. I cannot explain the reason for the difference. I can confirm that the oil in my Dragon 2 does not boil and there are no signs that the heater is in any kind of thermal distress. They call it a Dragon for a reasonFraserUpdate: I just checked the Dragon 4 on its 900W setting and thermal equilibrium occurred at 100.3C on the top of the oil chamber.A further check at the 1100W setting showed a temperature of 115.3C on the top of the oil chamber at thermal equilibrium.

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 07:35:09 pm
content: Another dropship scam.Computer Clan on YouTube covers these items a lot. Very much a copy-paste sales page and the same deals as before. Same fake reviews and same fake product.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 07:44:37 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on September 24, 2022, 06:16:32 pmEvery electric heater is 100% efficient at turning electricity into heat, although some are better than others at putting the heat where you want it which could arguably be considered as part of the total efficiency. A radiant heater for example will be much better at heating a person sitting near it, while a forced air heater with a powerful fan that blows heated air where you want it is better at warming the entire room. A forced air heater with an inadequate fan will create a bubble of heated air around the heater itself which will take a while to spread through the room. There is really no magic to it though and most of the heaters sold as being revolutionary in one way or another are really nothing special.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 07:47:46 pm
content: I just tested my Dragon 4 on its 900W setting and thermal equilibrium at the top of the oil chamber occurred at 100.3COn the 1100W setting the temperature on the top of the oil chamber rose to 115.3C and this looked close to thermal equilibrium.Fraser

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 07:52:15 pm
content: So I tested my MILL AB-H1500DN heater which is rated for 1.5 kW. Right away it consumed 1560W, checked after 8 minutes at full power - 970W. At 30 minutes still 970W. Interestingly when changed power settings at hot state, low setting resulted in zero consumption, mid and high settings were the same 970W. So not nearly as bad as those cheap heaters but still cheating and should be rated as 1000W instead.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 08:10:14 pm
content: Wraper,I have to wonder whether the exterior temperature of those oil heaters is being deliberately limited for safety ? The Dragon 4 gets really hot on its 2000W setting. The following temperatures on the top of the oil chamber were measured at the three power settings…….900W = 100C1100W = 115C2000W = 178CFraser

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 08:22:20 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on September 26, 2022, 08:10:14 pmDunno but you can only heat it to a certain point before oil starts boiling. Googling shows temperatures about 280oC when high temperature mineral oils start boiling. So you cannot get much above that anyway. Uncovered heaters are also more dangerous to cause burns so it may be a reason for more aggressive power reduction too. FWIW larger power rating sells a cheaper to make model for more money, buyer will likely to chose more compact one too.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 08:31:09 pm
content: https://www.multitherm.com/multitherm-pg-1.htmlthis particular oil has: Maximum Recommended Operating Temperature 600°F / 316°C

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 08:54:59 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on September 26, 2022, 08:22:20 pmPut it in a cold room and maybe it will continue drawing the full power. A heater really needs to be rated at the maximum power it can draw rather than the average power.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 09:00:05 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 26, 2022, 08:54:59 pmAs it took only a few minutes to drop the power, really doubt that will help. Room temperature was about 18oC. Yes it needs to be rated for maximum power, however this maximum power is mostly a gimmick which allows insignificantly faster initial heating and no sustained power rating was given.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 09:08:26 pm
content: Wraper,This is a really interesting discovery regarding these oil filled heaters. Thank you for highlighting the situation with some models, even quite expensive ones.Fraser

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 09:45:31 pm
content: It might help more than you think. In a cold room the oil will be cold, and a lot more heat will be drawn from the oil, it's hard to say without trying it though.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 10:07:42 pm
content: The fan heater that the OP highlighted has been reviewed by Krazy KenLook here….https://youtu.be/ot1JsRyjLcgQuoting Krazy Ken’s opinion of the unit …. “An over priced piece of junk…. Do not buy it”Fraser

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2022, 11:53:06 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on September 26, 2022, 08:10:14 pm100% this! while the old "bar" resistive heaters would be dangerous to touch, that sort of questionable consumer safety is a thing of the past. Non-industrial heaters need to be safe to touch in operation to meet current product safety requirements, so oil heaters with accessible metal fins will be running a thermostat on that bulk.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2022, 01:50:17 am
content: Quote from: Fraser on September 26, 2022, 02:40:05 pmWouldn't triac control work the best, no cycling and fast response?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2022, 02:02:38 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 27, 2022, 01:50:17 amcost optimized consumer products tend not to have intelligent control schemes, bi-metal electrical thermostats are just that cheap.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2022, 05:27:09 am
content: Quote from: wraper on September 26, 2022, 06:59:51 pmI was referring to so-called "white" or "light" mineral oil, which is odourless, and far from expensive. These radiators shouldn't get anywhere near the boiling point of the oil, but there are probably pockets of trapped air?In terms of the degradation over time, oil does not "decompose" as you put it. I mean, it's been decomposing organic matter at one point, but that was millions of years ago... The aromatics are the fractions that boil off first, so this becomes less smelly over time. It's not going to degrade in the way the oil in an ICE engine does, as there will be no combustion by-products contaminating it, and much lower temperatures.I suspect the stuff in radiators that does smell is either a different grade, maybe for cost or thermal characteristics, or maybe someone just refilled it with engine oil. No idea.If you want your radiator to smell better, just drain it and refill with baby oil, which is just a perfumed mineral oil!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2022, 07:28:50 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 27, 2022, 05:27:09 amReally? Have you never seen petroleum products degrade over time? For example I have a small bottle of Panasonic mineral oil for razor lubrication which is no longer useable for the purpose. It was odorless initially but after a decade it smells like a usual multi-tool oil. But gasoline usually has a shelf life of three to six months.QuoteThere is nowhere for them to go away so it cannot become less smelly because something evaporated.QuoteLet's see what manufacturer of high quality oil saysQuoteQuoteQuoteAnd have an explosion (due to boiling) in the middle of your room with hot oil splattering around and possibly self-igniting, hopefully you won't be there when it happens.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2022, 09:09:45 am
content: Your "degradation" example isn't very useful. We have no idea what the bottle is made out of; it's quite likely the oil is a mild solvent for the polymer of the bottle and has become contaminated.If there's no way for the aromatics to vent, there's no way they can be smelled.Quoting the sales blurb from a manufacturer that has a vested interest in selling you a product is a long way from an actual scientific study.If you want to debunk my claims/opinions, that's fine, I don't mind being proved wrong. Sales spiel isn't proof though.Although my comment about baby oil was facetious (which I'm sure you realised but chose to ignore) there's no reason to suppose it would be an explosion risk. Since the product is intended for use on the delicate skin of a baby, it does not contain volatile aromatics, as these would be a skin irritant. They make the stuff as inert as possible.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2022, 09:18:48 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 27, 2022, 09:09:45 amMarketing says their oil decomposes too, must be an utter lie.QuoteMy comment was not about it being inert or not but about its components boiling off and creating high pressure at lower temperature than specialized high temperature oil. Also I see these oils usually contain a few % of perfumes.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2022, 09:22:31 am
content: It certainly isn't a scientific study, and the word "decompose" has a specific and different meaning to that of "degrade".

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2022, 09:25:50 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 27, 2022, 09:22:31 amGoogle says:QuoteWhat manufacturer says is exactly that:Quote

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2022, 09:34:05 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 27, 2022, 09:09:45 amBottle is made of polypropylene, good luck dissolving that. And neither it should smell if dissolved.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2022, 11:39:55 am
content: Solvent resistant is not the same as solvent-proof. As it happens I use something in my day job that dissolves pp; it's called solvent weld, I use it for plastic conduit that I'm running cables through, plumbers also use it.Mineral oil contains a mix of alkanes and will dissolve pp, just very slowly.You are probably correct that this does not cause the odour though, the effect would be too small and too slow.The most likely explanation AFAIK is degradation (not decomposition) of the oil by oxidation which causes polymerisation (the opposite of decomposition if you think about it) and the evaporation of the lighter fractions.My knowledge of organic chemistry isn't good enough to expand on that though, and I'm at work and using my phone to reply, so not in a position to go on an extended gurgle safari.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2022, 02:01:35 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 27, 2022, 11:39:55 amAnd I call it BS, PP is nothing like ABS or PVC.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2022, 04:56:18 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on September 27, 2022, 02:01:35 pmMy bad, I mis-spoke. No need to be aggressive about it though.

author: Helio_Centra
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2022, 02:10:54 am
content: Big Clive just did a tear down and review of this heater.Spoiler: it is just a completely average 500W heater. And considering that most all department store heaters in countries on 120V will be 1500W and in countries with 220-240V will be 2000W it will kinda be terrible unless it is just heating a small room.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2022, 08:58:33 am
content: Quote from: wraper on September 27, 2022, 09:34:05 amhttps://www.foxxlifesciences.com/pages/polypropylene-chemical-compatibility-chartOddly enough there are plenty of chemicals that'll attack PP to various degrees. I've even had Acetone make a PP bottle brittle to the point of fracturing under touch after it sitting sealed up for 10 years and it's listed as an "A" for compatibility. Unless you formulated and extruded the bottle yourself you really have no idea what (if any) additives or plasticisers may have been added, and their long term chemical compatibility with the oil. Leaching of plasticisers causes issues for both the plastic and the contents.