Honeywell - banned for life over customer firewall - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 10:44:03 pm
content: A new design for a client had two candidates of PCB mounted pressure sensors. One was a Honeywell HSCMRNN001PG2A3. The other was an Amphenol Nova sensor. In PCB designs I always use 3D step files, never extruded approximations for fitment reasons, orientation and footprint verification. I could not find the Honeywell 3D step file anywhere online, so I emailed Honeywell in Australia, the US, and also filled in various forms on their website. The Honeywell website could not recognise their own part number when it is searched on. No response in two weeks from anyone, except one out-of-office email saying "On sick leave, response will be delayed." without any forwarding information. Maybe the employee was sick of Honeywell. This company is crap. You might as well be speaking to a brick wall.I have found over the last 30 years, Honeywell usually has important data missing from their datasheets, in this case no i2c resister information on the datasheet. In one case a few years ago their wrong data caused $1,200 worth of damage, as well as selling faulty parts that they refuse to take back. They also have poor part number, engineering control and documentation, and a bloated website with little useful information.The final straw was with this sensor. I spoke to my client and they have agreed to dismiss Honeywell as a supplier. Honeywell will lose significant sales as a result, now and in the future. Honeywell is now BANNED FOR LIFE. I don't think Honeywell employees care.Amphenol wins hands down. From the start all the data was available and detailed including the 3D step file. Even the i2c register data was all on their datasheet. Their sensor is a third of the price of the Honeywell sensor.But it does raise the question of how does one get to speak to a useful human in a "Your call is important to us" company, when the company builds a firewall between them and their customers? I heard Apple, Google and Facebook also fall into the customer firewall category. Bosch Sensortec is definitely in that domain.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 10:57:43 pm
content: they are open loop gain companies now. closed loop feedback is too hard apparentlyIf you think anyone cares in a congomolarate, you are wrong! maybe sales a little bit. But the status quo is to 'look for new jobs while you work here' for most big companies anyway. They really want nomad-style mercenaries to work there IMO.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 11:03:59 pm
content: there's drawings in the datasheet, step files are nice but people got by with drawings for many many decadeswhy do you expect i2c resistors to be in the datasheet? they are part of the i2c spec

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 11:13:58 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on December 21, 2023, 11:03:59 pmRegister

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 12:03:41 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on December 21, 2023, 11:03:59 pmI am talking register information. You cannot pull that stuff out of your head and no-one should not have to spend days trying to hack it. It is unique to the specific device. But of course it isn't in the effing datasheet.As for models, most of the products I design have tight enclosure or other physical constraints. I need to get it right the first time. Furthermore, I deal with industrial designers or mechanical engineers who need accurate information and rightly so. Your mobile phone was not created by someone using extruded models - they use proper CAD models.IMO, these days anyone using extruded models these days is either lazy, too busy, lazy, on too tight a deadline, lazy, sloppy, or just plain lazy. Having a PC or graphics card too slow to render a 3D board image, not enough RAM, or not disk storage these days is nonsense. 20 years ago, it was an issue, but not now.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 02:01:23 am
content: Isn't the information here?https://www.mouser.com/pdfDocs/I2CCommsDigitalOutputPressureSensors_TN_008201-3-EN_Final_30May12.pdfAddress 0x28

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 03:15:29 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on December 21, 2023, 10:44:03 pmI believe Paddington Bear wants to sue Honeywell for false advertising!

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 03:40:38 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on December 22, 2023, 02:01:23 amCorrect and that is what I eventually found. But it isn't referenced in the device datasheet. TI puts all the info in one place and despite the occasional bug, their datasheets are superior in almost every way to anything from Dunnywell. If you find the 3D model for this part on their "information superhighway", you are a lot more resourceful than I will ever be.A footnote on TI. After trying to work out for several hours why a proto circuit was not working, I was convinced the BQ charger chip was of a different part number to what was on the chip. It was a fault with TI's manufacturing process, with the wrong part number on a chip (ouch!). I alerted TI, and they asked where I got the chips from (Mouser). It turns out all of Mouser's stock of the chip was affected and TI recalled the lot immediately. They send me 20 of the correct chip via DHL at no charge (no pun intended). Throughout the entire process, TI was very responsive and very professional. A complete turnaround from the days of 2020 to 2022. They had an engineer assigned to the case. Despite the original chip issue, TI gets 10/10 for customer service.Everyone makes mistakes - fine. But it is how issues are handled and the corrective actions that make the difference. Honeywell has not improved it seems, in 30 years.I ordered a couple of eval boards from TI in Texas last Friday afternoon and it arrived here in Melbourne Australia two days later (Sunday). How good it is that!.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 09:10:48 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on December 22, 2023, 03:15:29 amSurely you mean Pooh Bear? Paddington eats marmalade sandwiches.Honeywell is the parent corp for a few brands that I use at work, and I have noticed the decline in quality of MK stuff over the past decade, presumably as they outsource more and more manufacturing to low labour cost countries.Notifier will be the next to suffer; they recently moved all their manufacturing thusly, and it does not bode well for safety critical equipment to be made in the cheapest way possible.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 01:07:07 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on December 22, 2023, 09:10:48 amOh Pooh!I stuffed that one up!

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 10:59:04 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on December 22, 2023, 03:40:38 amI get the frustration and agree with you, but that was maybe 2 minutes of searching to find.One of these 3D models looks close enough:https://sps-support.honeywell.com/s/article/AST-Need-the-he-3D-CAD-model-drawings-for-the-pressure-sensor-p-n-s-HSCMRRN002ND2A3-and-SSCDRRN002ND2A3?tabset-3dec3=2https://grabcad.com/library/hscdrrn002ndaa5-1though you'd need to modify it to remove the second port.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 12:14:43 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on December 22, 2023, 10:59:04 pmThanks, but a joint decision has been made. The client is no longer considering Honeywell as a supplier. Incidentally, the client tried to contact them as well independently of me, and also on other projects for other reasons. They told me they were really peeved with the total lack of response from Honeywell, and they were hoping I could get through to the knuckleheads at Honeywell. On that, I failed.Maybe large companies expand to their level of incompetence. The Peter Principle for a company. Leaders of large companies seem more interested in the share price than customer service or their employees, just maybe because they personally pocket more on the share price value above all else. Louis Gerstner from IBM is case in point.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 12:23:06 pm
content: Funny rant, but I didn't see anything extraordinarily bad: your failure of spending 2 minutes to find the correct documentation. Poorly organized documents suck, but not enough for a boycott. No reply to emails or support tickets? Sucks, but standard procedure. With 90% of companies, this is exactly what happens: they simply do not care. Not enough for a boycott. No step files available? Sucks, but usual practice. I prefer that over havingwrongstep files, which is quite usual, too.I have seen much much worse, like a manufacturer poisoning the whole supply chain (Digikey, Mouser and others) by accidentally packaging thousands and thousands of parts with wrong labels,thenfailing to react inany wayforweeks and weeks, when production is halted. Or another company just discontinuing a new part years before the EOL date, withoutanynotice to any, not Digikey, not Mouser, then coming up with a new suggested alternative, which they happily sell, only to repeat the same and discontinue it, again withoutanynotice to customers, after a year or so.And I'm sure those who are more experienced than me (a small and relatively young player), have seen lot worse.I'm also sure the very day you or your customers finds an interesting part from Honeywell no one else can provide which enables your design, you forget your lifelong ban. I was also sure I'm never going to buy anything from Bosch Sensortec, ever. In reality, I will.

author: harerod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 08:39:00 pm
content: Reminds me of my current experience with Honeywell:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/mno2-mno2b-medicels-looking-for-docu-mtoxops-pdf/msg4861070/#msg4861070Honeywell never replied to me or my client, although the client keeps trying. Our forecast is 10k units, one cell goes for €80 AFAIK. In the meantime I got one sample on my desk and did some measurements on it. After the holidays I will drive test equipment from my lab two hundred kilometers to a lab with calibrated gas sources, to confirm information that Honeywell should have at hand. My client also would instantly replace those cells, but we can't find anything else that would fit their requirements.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 10:10:39 pm
content: Quote from: harerod on December 23, 2023, 08:39:00 pmI honesty don't know how to approach these large industrial conglomerates. Let it be Honeywell, Vega or Siemens, Henkel and the list just goes on. It's like talking to a wall, with a wall you sometimes get an echo.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 10:40:43 pm
content: Think the pre Allied Signal merger/acquisition Honeywell was more customer focused, after the merger they drifted into the Wall St mentality of damn the customers/employees, maximize the bottom line!! This bodes well with executives as they host a major investment portfolio in the bottom line influenced stock price. We saw some of this coming before the acquisition after 20 years at Honeywell and the CTO stating "I see no value whatsoever is Silicon Wireless Technology" (which arguably was invented at Honeywell in 1989), that alone convinced us to leave just before the acquisition/merger was announced.Another well known, highly respected technology company falling to Wall St mentality just like HP, Tek and so on. This is the fundamental reason for US technology leadership erosion!! Easy to blame Wall St, or company executives, but the real root cause is us, the share holders demanding short term value!!Best,

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 11:17:35 pm
content: give the investors a insane promise or YOUR FIRED!!!!IMO the problem is leadership. And probobly a deep state within companies that prevents actual changes by new management.This happens when someone wants to downsize when something good is invented. Everyone here is probobly damned to a lesser fate then they deserve because of IP sales that turned out to be hot shit.I bet at honeywell someone was like "well we need to hire a few RF engineers and stuff to get this technology going" and at the same time someone was dead set on reaching some dollar value 'goal' so it was deemed not viable... but I bet the money was in the coffers the whole time!bill gates and apple prove this.... xerox research lab is probobly the biggest IP fuckup in history for PC peripherals/interface technology I think. at least if that movie is right lolhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PARC_(company)read the legacy sectionis microsoft actually decent at customer relations? their windows trouble shooting online database thing is actually impressive and it lets you fix most problems. Not as good as MAN pages, but it pretty good. And at least TI and tektronix run their little forums. A bit weak but its half decent IMO. I got some answers there before about IC's.but stuff like honeywell? JFC forget about it. they even have their own undocumented electrical language for hooking up the most simple devices. Its not in industrial electronics or standard electronics or even alarm systems. IDK wtf that shit is !!! HVAC/BOILER/FURNACE things are awful!! I took apart some little thermostat thing and it was word salad in there man. Is it a dry contact? a triac output? DC? who the fuck knows! I swear it said some random ass shit on a screw terminal, wish I could remember it. Probably "pipe" and "WA".

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2023, 03:37:02 am
content: Thanks, Coppercone2, for using that term;'Open Loop'.In medical systems (HMO), it's become clear that similar lack of negative feedback gets a kind of 'drift', that is cause of dysfunction and headed into worse territory, blindly.You're getting similar statements or declarations of, well, how good they are.Try mention those shortcomings and you don't seem to get anywhere. I think in the medical stuff the term used is 'waste and fraud' but there is similar 'waste' in a big company, like you say.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2023, 03:45:42 am
content: well you get some where, that is UP, because of how successful it is, without the negative feedback.right to the god damn top. at least if there is alot of morons around

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 04:33:32 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on December 22, 2023, 03:40:38 amI have designed in a similar sensor from Honeywell a couple of years ago and I do have the 3D model. Likely I used the link on Mouser which is dead now.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 04:36:06 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on December 23, 2023, 10:10:39 pmMaybe it is a matter to just make phone calls until you get to the right person. Back in the old days I needed information from Philips every now and then. So I went to the toilet, filled a mug with water and spend that next 1 to 2 hours dialing (using a rotary phone) until I got the right person on the phone.

author: harerod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 11:19:39 am
content: nctnico, I'dloveto solve this issue with an old fashioned phone call.I am open to suggestions as to which number to dial.The whole story sounds rather surreal:- my client buys large batches of those sensors directly from the manufacturer. Since they have special requirements, each cell is hand picked and comes with its own calibration certificate- that client doesn't know and doesn't get any information regarding who to ask about such a triviality, like a document that is integral part of the product specification (they are still trying)- I couldn't believe that myself, so I did my own research and eventually started this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/mno2-mno2b-medicels-looking-for-docu-mtoxops-pdf/msg4861070/#msg4861070- before that I searched hi and lo on the interwebs- I used my existing support account with Honeywell - no answer at all- their chat bot isn't useful (big surprise)- I couldn't figure out any useful telephone number. The local branch is supposed to be in Britain, but at this point I'd call anywhere on the planet- my current status is that I set up one of those sensors in my lab and did measurements. The results don't match the bit of information (from the datasheet) that is available to me, so I will have to pack that setup into my car and take it to a lab that can provide calibrated gas concentrations (50..500pbb, can't give details at the moment). The whole affair is idiotic, we are building medical devices here, not Arduino maker projects (nothing against those)

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 05:25:50 pm
content: It sounds entirely similar to my experiences. I don't make the purchase decision. Can I connect component X to the system I designed, will it function, is it safe? No I don't have a customer account, an order number. Sometimes all I have a blurry photo of the type plate. But that's fine, because the specialist for the help is on 3 weeks leave, doesn't have a replacement, and even if he would be in the office, doesn't pick up the phone. And if he does, please write an email, that's easier to ignore.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 06:05:59 pm
content: A possible way for escalating the lack of support/documentation is to talk to the sales department. Explain the situation and how much revenue is involved, and tell them that they might lose a customer. If this doesn't help email some C-level executive. And if that also fails then they clearly don't care and your response should be to never ever buy anything from them again.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 12:27:44 am
content: Quote from: madires on December 27, 2023, 06:05:59 pmWell that is one of the key facts. If we are talking <1,000 units the company might not be making enough to justify caring. It sucks but isn't it logical?Though the mention above of 10k units should at least deserve a response..

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 06:08:01 am
content: and a sale of 1 unit is enough for killer advertisingsomething people don't realize is how little price and big companies matter for sales advertising. A 500k machine at a big company might get less attention then a literary a interesting looking pencil cup. Someone might even use it at 6 months of deliberations.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 08:08:55 am
content: Look at the Japanese companies, like Mitsubishi. Was helping install a motor drive cabinet that had 6 Mitsubishi inverter drives in them, and all craftsmanship on the panel was perfect. You would hope so, in a cabinet that has 0.72F of power supply capacitor, and almost another entire rack of contactors, timers and power resistors, that are there only to provide the 3 phase rectifier, power control and inrush limiting, with another fan cooled cabinet on top that has the braking resistors for the voltage spike during braking, and with a whole load of contactors, controlled by the HMI, to keep the voltage in limits. Even has 2 package air conditioners as well to keep it cool, and 200VAC fans to circulate the air inside. All parts are made in Japan as well, and all the assembly was exactly perfect, even to when placing the 6 ton cabinet, it was exactly, within 1mm, of the footprint of the old one.

author: harerod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 12:58:16 pm
content: Quote from: madires on December 27, 2023, 06:05:59 pmThis is happening at an higher echelon already. So far, to no avail. Well, as an external consultant I am payed by the hour, no matter how I spend my time, as long as it is related to the project. However, it is my ambition to be efficient*. I don't bill coffee breaks and I hate wasting time reverse engineering black boxes (while somebody sits on the documentation).* Q: How many German engineers does it take to change a lightbulb?A: Won. Ve do not häv a senz off yumor and ve are werry iffishent!

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 12:24:58 pm
content: Just a shot in the dark - contact them via social media. It seems this is what large companies expect you to do these days.

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 01:04:38 pm
content: I feel your pain....I have a vendor I really would like to buy product from that I haven't been able to figure out how to even get someone to tell me that they're not interested in selling to me. I've sent emails into various email boxes (including the US sales box, the headquarters box, and so on). I've also filled out their online web form, and so on.The only response I've ever gotten is an automatic reply that they have received my email and would get back to me. Yeah right.I'm going to try the "drop by their booth and talk to someone in person" thing at CES. Hopefully I won't get stymied by the whole "you needed to talk to your sales team before hand for an appointment" thing some vendors do at CES, and will discover that I've been trying to contact them in all the wrong ways. But I'm not holding my breath here.Regardless, I just don't get it. I understand the perfectly valid choice some giant companies make to limit their sales to other big companies. Maybe Honeywell is in this category. But there are lots of companies out there that are small enough that they should want to pick up all the sales they can, or at least not ignore potential sales until they determine the actual likely volume.

author: harerod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 06:10:25 pm
content: Quote from: Haenk on December 29, 2023, 12:24:58 pmOh crap. It scares me, that you may be correct. In this particular project, the only dude who knows how to tweet, may be that one product manager...