counterfeit titanium in Boeing and Airbus jets - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 10:27:26 pm
content: F.A.A. Investigating How Questionable Titanium Got Into Boeing and Airbus Jets:https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/14/us/politics/boeing-airbus-titanium-faa.htmlFAA investigates counterfeit titanium used in some Boeing and Airbus jets:https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/14/boeing-airbus-counterfeit-titanium-faaTL;DR: In 2019 a Turkish material supplier bought counterfeit titanium from a supplier in China and sold it to manufacturers of aircraft parts. Those parts went to Spirit AeroSystems and ended up in Boeing and Airbus jets.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 11:00:10 pm
content: For some reason, this funky supply chain issue reminds me of a scandal with an industrial food manufacturer that at some point was selling products containing horse meat whereas it was advertised as beef.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 11:06:59 pm
content: i wanna know what they thought it was. titanium is pretty hard to miss. The thin parts feel very peculiar.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 11:13:05 pm
content: They thought it was titanium because it is titanium; calling it “counterfeit” is a poor choice of word. It’s that it’s titanium of unknown origin and quality because of counterfeited paperwork. In aviation, everything needs a paper trail, and now it’s been discovered that this particular paper trail was forged.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 12:31:50 am
content: Yea how can there be counterfeit titanium it's an element LOL. Must be the paperwork they mean.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 12:41:11 am
content: It could be either the material or the paperwork, or both that are counterfeit. Titanium as used in the aircraft is not a pure element, and even "pure" materials are not interchangeable. Take polycrystalline Silicon vs single crystal Silicon vs p doped Silicon vs n doped Silicon. In the semiconductor world even saying single crystal isn't enough, the crystal orientation matters.Sometimes the lack of a paper trail is a serious issue, and sometimes it is only serious because you can't prove it isn't serious.A not uncommon situation in the maintenance and repair side of things is for someone to buy a sheet of properly specified and documented material. Some repair parts are made from this sheet and the paperwork follows the parts. The remainder of the sheet is perfectly good material, but if it can't be appropriately traced back to its origin it becomes "counterfeit". And it is surprising how often the paperwork gets lost.The case to really worry about is when someone obtains some titanium or other material of unknown alloy, unknown manufacturing method (cast/forged/rolled etc), and unknown heat treat and passes it off as a particular material. Often look and feel and sometimes even machining characteristics will be close enough that it isn't obvious that the material is wrong. It takes an intensive metallurgical examination to tell the difference. Much the same way as counterfeit ICs often work as long as the application doesn't push the corners of the specification envelope.

author: mag_therm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 01:20:35 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 15, 2024, 12:31:50 amThe alloy Ti-6Al-4V is commonly used in aero components. I would guess the media would be referring to this.Post forming heat treat is complicated and may be proprietary.Anneal is made more difficult by the low thermal conductivity, roughly 1/5 to 1/3 of the steel alloys, depending on temperature.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 01:45:22 am
content: Quote from: mag_therm on June 15, 2024, 01:20:35 amThanks for the explanation I was just sitting here wondering if they meant titanium the element or some sort of alloy.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 05:08:29 am
content: Pure titanium has lousy mechanical properties, and therefore alloys are used for aircraft components.In grad school, we used commercially-pure titanium to make high voltage electrodes, which left the obvious scrap behind when the discs were cut from rectangular plates.A different group needed some small pieces, which we shared with them.The engineer came back and asked what the hell alloy that was, since the brackets he made failed dismally; he forgot to ask us that detail.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 09:17:18 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 15, 2024, 12:31:50 amHave a look at how many different types/grades of aluminim you can get.Apart from purity, the processing and internal structure vary considerably - and that affects the material performance.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 09:24:30 am
content: AI told me this. Thus to counterfeit titanium alloys would be an easy job actually..Quote

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 09:50:16 am
content: Quote from: iMo on June 15, 2024, 09:24:30 amSo you posted a list that could be completely made up. So completely pointless. I wish we could make a rule on the forums banning the sharing of AI-generated responses.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 03:22:46 pm
content: I could swear this was supposed to become a rule when ChatGPT became a thing, but I can't find ithere.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 04:13:10 pm
content: There is a detailed article in today'sNew York Timesbusiness section about the supply chain problem with this titanium.To summarize briefly: The titanium alloy originated in China and went through a Turkish company accompanied by full paperwork.Apparently, one Chinese company forged the documentation from a second Chinese company (which has a good reputation), and the second company denies selling the material to the first company.Since the paperwork cannot be trusted, the purchasers are now scrambling to test the material directly.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 06:45:42 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 15, 2024, 12:31:50 amTrue, titanium is an element. So is carbon. However, diamond and graphite, which are both composed of carbon, have very different physical properties and market value, and impurities in diamonds do impact their price at jewelry store.Similar to carbon, titanium has two allotropic forms, and impurities can affect its physical properties and market value.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 12:14:57 am
content: Quote from: tooki on June 15, 2024, 09:50:16 amAny list could be completely made up. While AI is prone to garbage, it can also result in real information. In a modest check all of the alloys mentioned in this list are real. There are more not mentioned.So unless the suggestion is that all information on this forum should be banned unless it is properly vetted and cited, I think this is an over reaction. Such a strict rule on information quality would drastically reduce the content of this and many other forums.Whatever the source, you should use caution when employing information, with the amount of caution depending on the how the information is employed. In this thread of the forum, which is somewhat similar to a conversation in a bar, the standard for information quality can be quite low. The question of how well vetted information needs to be is actually the base subject of this thread, where aerospace applications of materials has direct impact on human lives appear to have been inadequately vetted. I would certainly never accept an AI assertion that a batch of material was suitable for purpose in an airplane.Of more interest to me is the observation that this list means it is easy to counterfeit titanium. I don't see the existence of such information as an enabler.Edited to correct autocorrect errors.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 07:41:05 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 15, 2024, 12:41:11 amThis is quite true. Often the reason behind many recalls.Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 15, 2024, 12:41:11 am145 Section. Often the paperwork is in a bag taped to the material. When it gets small enough it goes in the bag but it doesn't take much for the paperwork to be lost and if the material has no markings on it they can't prove it is ok, so it gets binned. Same goes for parts that are old, they can be stamped to extend the years but after a limited number of years that part can no longer be fitted to an aircraft. Its amazing what you can find in the rubbish bin at times, perfectly fine for my home use.

author: Zoli
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 03:12:09 pm
content: Just to chime in a little info source: the SR-71 "Blackbird" spy plane was built mostly from titanium; looking into the planes history can give some insights on the material.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 04:21:42 pm
content: Ironically most of the titanium used to build it was supplied by the USSR, as one of the leaders in titanium production. The other major supplier is South Africa, mined out of dunes, where it is a black impurity in the sea sand.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 05:57:24 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on June 16, 2024, 04:21:42 pmThis is part of Russian propaganda. It is common in Russia, as it was in the USSR, to create myths about Russian greatness. When the country lacks a promising future and has little to be proud of in the present, they glorify the past, often fabricating stories.SR-71 production began in 1962 and ended in 1968. During this period, about three quarters of the US titanium sponge demand was met by domestic production, and only one quarter was imported. Imports from the USSR began in 1965, three years after production of SR-71 started, accounting for 2% of titanium sponge imports (0.5% of demand) in 1965-66, rising to 19% (5% of demand) in 1967.Soviet titanium sponge was traded at lower prices than domestically produced titanium and imports from the UK and Japan, the main trading partners for titanium. Price undercuts is the only reason for growth of their imports.There is no evidence that military and government contractors sourced titanium for their projects directly from USSR, there was no need for that, and chronologically events do not align.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 06:24:45 pm
content: Quote from: vad on June 16, 2024, 05:57:24 pmThere is. Just recently happened to watch a documentary on SR_71, the presenter specifially mentioned titanium for it was sourced from USSR.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 06:39:47 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on June 16, 2024, 06:24:45 pmGreat. I watched documentaries on UFOs, life after death, homeopathy, and the 2012 Mayan calendar apocalypse. That doesn’t mean the facts presented in those documentaries were true.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 06:48:43 pm
content: Some collaboration, and generally interesting stuff on the early difficulties in working Titanium for the SR-71...https://wisconsinmetaltech.com/titanium-and-the-sr-71/

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 07:15:05 pm
content: Quote from: vad on June 16, 2024, 05:57:24 pmWhat you said there might well be true, but it is orthogonal to the SR71 story, which might also be true. Its a cold war story. You can't trust anything that is said. The SR71 is said to have been the first substantial application for titanium. So, the US may well have been able to source what it needed for small scale research and specialist uses domestically. The SR71 required a much bigger amount than was being produced. They never imported anything from the USSR. That's what the story says. It was all imported from third party countries, which each obtained relatively small amounts from the USSR, to avoid suspicion. What went into the SR71 did not appear in any public USA titanium usage figures, as that would have been suspicious.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 08:09:41 pm
content: Quote from: vad on June 16, 2024, 05:57:24 pmThat story has been widely reported in reputable media, citing people involved in the SR-71 program. The US set up shell companies in third world countries through which to purchase the titanium ore from the USSR without the latter finding out.E.G.https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20130701-tales-from-the-blackbird-cockpit

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 08:37:39 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 16, 2024, 08:09:41 pmThe idea of it being Russian propaganda is amusing, as its a story of the USSR being suckered, and losing out. Its interesting that the US had to do this, though. Today Russian sources 15% of titanium, China sources 30%. The rest of the world sources the other 55%. So, its seems the US had a number of potential sources they were not really aware of. I guess the limited demand for titanium, because of the immense energy costs to extract usable metal from a plentiful ore means people had not sought out many good mining locations by the 1960s.

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 09:14:56 am
content: I've just gone for the Titanium option - a backwoods stove... surprised to see it.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 09:59:45 am
content: Quote from: armandine2 on June 17, 2024, 09:14:56 amIt's amazing to see how Ti processing technology has moved on.P.S. My, not very expensive, Citizen watch case and strap are made of Titanium. Unthinkable (material availability and precision of machining) back in the '60s.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 10:31:02 am
content: QuoteJust remember not to use hexi tablets in it ,well not in the uk at least,you dont want to be classed as a terrorist.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 10:41:28 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 17, 2024, 10:31:02 amNot being a camper, I had to look that one up.From Wikipedia:

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 10:53:09 am
content: QuoteJust our governments over the top knee jerk reaction.lets hope they never did the exploding custard powder experiment at school or the future of dessert is doomed.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 11:04:57 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 17, 2024, 10:53:09 amhttps://x.com/mpsregentspark/status/974645778558980096?lang=en

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 11:18:38 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 17, 2024, 10:53:09 amStep away from the custard or the pudding gets it!

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 11:49:06 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 17, 2024, 11:04:57 amYes they do not want any unauthorised learning or home repair going on, you must let the Nanny State come around, in 15 to 30 years, to change your light bulb, or fix your broken door lock.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 12:39:37 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 17, 2024, 10:31:02 amI got that reference! (without looking it up)

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 01:35:58 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 17, 2024, 10:31:02 amI never burn Hex fuel tablets, I have better uses for it.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 01:53:55 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 17, 2024, 11:04:57 amDon't laugh, that stuff does get counted as "bomb making material". A friend of mine's bitter ex-wife called the ATF and told them that he had explosives, machine guns, etc and they raided his house and took away 40,000 pounds of "bomb making material". That included EVERY book in his house regardless of the subject, ALL of his hand tools and machine tools and even the wooden work benches. They took all of of his gun cleaning supplies and all of his reloading supplies and all of his guns except one, which I will get to in a moment. They also took every kind of cleaning agent or any other kind of chemical that they could find in his house. They also literally tore down the wall board in every room looking for any hidden martial. Ironically the one item that they didn't take was his suppressed 45 caliber Ruger camp carbine. Since it was already Federally registered, it was deemed legal and they left it behind but they took all of his other legally owned but not Federally registered guns and all of his ammo and all of his reloading supplies included empty fired brass.They never found anything illegal and they never charged him with anything but it took months of legal wrangling about $15,000 in legal fees before the ATF finally returned all of his property. And another $25,000 in repairs to his home.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 03:05:41 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on June 17, 2024, 01:53:55 pmATF and the agents will be immune because they thought they had a valid warrant, and the judge who signed the warrant has absolute immunity, but could he sue his ex-wife for damages?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 03:12:36 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on June 17, 2024, 09:59:45 amThere certainly appeared to be a big step forward with titanium processing about 30 years ago, when those reasonably priced titanium watch cases, and similar products, started to appear. Googling I couldn't locate a description of what changed. Does anyone know?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 04:42:41 pm
content: By the way, titanium is not rare in nature.In the Earth's crust, titanium ranks 9th at 0.565% (by weight), between potassium and hydrogen.Seehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth%27s_crust(Other sources list titanium at 10th.)Commercial production (again, by weight) is almost as high as for silicon (2nd in rank).Refining titanium is more difficult than other popular metals, such as aluminum, iron, and copper.Like most metals, the pure substance is not common for mechanical purposes requiring strength and appropriate alloys are used (just as steel instead of iron).

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 05:47:42 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 14, 2024, 11:00:10 pmYou get a few cracking horse burgers at motorsport events in ireland. The other popular name for them is "ball burger", cause you know the meat is going to be whatever was left over.Still tastey AF though with some fried onions, cheese and red sauce.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 05:54:26 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on June 17, 2024, 10:41:28 amhttps://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-measures-targeting-bomb-making-materials-come-into-forceTerrorists win again. Impacting our freedoms terrorising people with security threats. When do we fight back instead of giving them what they want?Actually. All joking aside. Do check the list of chemicals they are now enforcing "no sell" on.Newly reportable explosives precursors:SulfurNewly reportable poisons:Metal sulfides and polysulfidesMetal phosphidesSodium hypochlorite solutions (above 6% available Cl).Newly regulated precursors:HexamineHydrochloric acid (over 10% w/w)Phosphoric acid (over 30% w/w)Ammonium nitrate (over 16% N)Newly regulated poisons:Aluminium sulfideSodium sulfideCalcium sulfideMagnesium sulfideCalcium phosphideZinc phosphideArsenic compoundsMercury compounds2,4- dinitrophenol (DNP) and compounds including sodium dinitrophenolateI'm pretty sure I have some of those, maybe not in pure form, but in or with something else.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 05:56:07 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 17, 2024, 03:05:41 pmYes the one to sue is the ex, as she did it deliberately, you can sue her for weaponising the police against him, and SWATTING him, knowing he has done nothing wrong, and that none of this was true. Sue for the costs, the repairs, and the legal costs, and then go after her for the same amount for trauma, plus a restraining order forbidding her to come within 300 feet of him or his possessions.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 06:07:58 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on June 17, 2024, 05:56:07 pmI suspect it comes down to the ex-wife being judgement proof. It does not matter what the civil penalty is if she cannot pay it.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 06:12:17 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 17, 2024, 03:05:41 pmI can't say for certain but I sort of doubt it unless there is some way to Prove that she did itknowingthat the information was false and that she made the claims with malicious intent. Otherwise she can claim that she believed that was all of her claims were true when she reported them to the FBI/ATF. And she can still point the finger of blame at the FBI/ATF since they're the ones that actually inflicted the damage.Events didn't go this far but I know of several other cases where men were kicked out of their homes and all of their guns were seized based on claims by vindictive ex-wifes.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 06:21:45 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 17, 2024, 06:07:58 pmTrue, but does entirely scupper any attempt by her to ever claim any sort of benefit from him, as he can always cite the case as proof of her duplicity.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 08:22:56 pm
content: lol that is going to be one dedicated terrorist to pull that off. I think they seem content to stab people at the moment.I bought two titanium tweezers for etching PCB as a result of this threadI am certain that the british chemical industry is dead though. Who the hell would even study professional chemistry unless you can play with chemistry set?That kinda thing has far reaching applications. Like when they need to mail out things because there is no one interested in or doing electroplating. You know, to finish simple goods at a reasonable price.England hates everything that is not white collar lol

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 12:04:31 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on June 17, 2024, 08:22:56 pmWell why not - I see several kinds for sale on Amazon so I got me two pair. Who else on the block has titanium tweezers.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 12:24:15 am
content: I had titanium tipped for a long time but not full titanium. The ones that close by themselves might be useful for picking up cards or metal plating and even in the ultrasonic cleaner.It seems that there is a market for chemistry handtools that does not really exist. They make the tools because their either non magnetic for MRI (super $) or poor thermally conductive for soldering jewels. But you need various tools to work on chemical baths.There is some fishing tools, but these would need to be designed for easy washing. no pivots. The only one I think might be good is tweezers and a slip joint pliers with a nut you can unscrew.Also useful for rust removal and brush electrolysis (the future of metal working process IMO, fuck grinders)https://www.amazon.com/WEDO-Lightweight-Non-magnetic-Die-forged-Petrochemical/dp/B09LL9P25F?th=1its a bit much but there is no other metal tool you can dip in a chemical bath. plastic pliers are ickybut some people are into ECM machining, electroforming and other fairly 'heavy' processes that can actually do work. even dealing with problems for EDM might mean dipping pliers in water

author: ArdWar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 01:10:21 am
content: Quote from: paulca on June 17, 2024, 05:54:26 pmSurely those aren't outright ban right?Like "no sell if no valid use case", or "sell but record everything", or maybe just UK's being UK needing license for everything.I mean, some of those chemicals are very common. Maybe not random dude in a suburb apartment randomly need it kind of common but common enough that a farmer or small business may need it.For example H2SO4is battery acid and surely no one aren't going to distribute that entirely in diluted form. NaOCl is bleach, (NH4)NO3is fertilizer etc. etc.Also LOL at that poor handyman who got mugged by police...

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 08:31:13 am
content: Quote from: ArdWar on June 18, 2024, 01:10:21 amIt doesn't need to make sense. Speaking of H₂SO₄, the maximum concentration that can be legally sold to consumers in the EUSSR is 15%, but lead acid batteries are perfectly available with 30% inside. Some battery dealers haven't got the memo either and still sell 30% electrolyte in bottles.The whole thing is kinda moot, because this acid can be trivially concentrated to >90%. It just ends up being more expensive than buying concentrated right away.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 08:32:44 am
content: I bought titanium tweezers like thesehttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006215978926.htmlfrom China and they're so much better than recently bought Wiha tweezershttps://lv.farnell.com/wiha/32349/tweezer-set-esd-precision-ss-4pc/dp/3003281which are frankly disappointing and with shitty manufacturing quality.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 10:05:04 am
content: Quote from: magic on June 18, 2024, 08:31:13 amI only scan read it. To me it (the link) looks like a UK based ROHS effort. The same way you can't buy leaded solder without a business/profressional account. Although it states that selling to a profressional requires the store take ID and documentation for records.Supermarket bleach is 6%, but you can usually buy 12% stuff on Amazon etc.I believe their primary target is removing as much for legal UK sale as possible and then try and police the rest with threats of terrorism charges.There are a few on the list which I think I have in small quantities for fertilizer salts and stuff. Not bothered. I do use "Phosphoric acid" sanitizer at 20-40%. So I assume that will be nerfed to useless soon to 15-20%.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 11:14:20 am
content: Theirs a £40 licence that lets you buy the good stuff.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 11:17:38 am
content: The various acids can be purified and concentrated. Conversion is also feasible for an amateur. The cost is time, basic required equipment, and yield, so if available it is always cheaper to purchase what you want to start with.I expect they will further restrict laboratory equipment and speech describing the various processes.The UK did not need as many engineers anyway.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 12:10:32 pm
content: QuoteThey already have, a copy of the anarchist Cookbook can get you a couple of years inside.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 01:03:13 pm
content: That booklet has been around for quite awhile and was available in the US. I don't know about today. What amazes me is the hoops a legitimate user needs to go through while illicit users are not even prosecuted in many areas of the US.More than 20 years ago, I bought a "Scout" brand digital scale that measured to 10mg and used it mainly for mixing 2-part adhesives in small quantities. Even though I was well known to the seller through my day job, I had to fill out paperwork, give a DEA license number, and beg for it.Making RDX (my previous post) would be quite easy for anyone with a little chemistry background. How in the free world can ammonia be restricted and controlled?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 03:25:38 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on June 18, 2024, 01:03:13 pmI guess one of the methamphetamine recipes uses anhydrous ammonia? It was being stolen from farmers who use it as a cheap albeit inconvenient fertilizer.Over the years I have been collecting the information on how to purify and convert acids, and synthesize various things from readily available materials as availability becomes restricted. US protections of speech have so far kept the information available, but maybe it is time to archive various videos off of YouTube since they are bound by nothing.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 03:43:49 pm
content: Which is why your 2:3:2 fertiliser is deliberately contaminated, so that it is harder to make it burn, mostly because of the Oklahoma bombing, and the first WTC attack. Plus you need to produce ID to buy more than 2 bags at a time, and have a registered smallholding as well.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 04:45:07 pm
content: you can legislate all you like,if your determine enough youll find a way around it.One that makes me chuckle is the liquid ban on flights,but once your air side you can buy multiple pressurised aerosol cans full of flammable material

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 04:53:59 pm
content: In my area of rural Ohio, ammonia is still used. It's a specialized service, but cost effective.@David HessHere's an anecdote from way back (1960's). I was in grad school and a "1-step synthesis for THC" was presented at the ACS meeting. Needless to say, there was an overflow crowd. Within days, the starting material became unavailable. Thankfully, we have free speech. Perhaps with good reason, commerce does not enjoy the same freedoms. Congress can regulate it as much as it wants to.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 08:30:25 pm
content: they really should not threaten our food supply like that. food is probobly the cause for the collapse of a country. nothing makes people riot like expensive foodfarmers are SO important to a nations well being. the real problem will begin when food prices get too high because of a shortage, that would be a blood bath. At that point its not just criminals being criminals, everyone turns into a desperate animal.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 10:00:30 pm
content: Arab Spring in various nations was preceded by rising food prices.I know someone who could teach anybody to be a farmer.“It’s a process. You dig a hole, you put a seed in, you put dirt on top, you add water, up comes the corn.” - Michael Bloomberg (Oxford Union in 2016)

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 10:07:19 pm
content: yeah but you need fertilizer and stuff to be available or you get bad harvests and no one wants to do it because its a bad investment. the other problem is being able to manage surplus properly instead of letting food rot (this takes education and possibly government stimulus into equipment like freeze dryers and other expensive equipment that can make... somewhat nutritious food that is reasonably popular and stores well).because terrorism is bad, but its nothing to what can happen during a prolonged famine. Like seriously nothing. A civilization can disappear because of a famine.Farming is seen as a risky profession that is fairly low pay for the labor involved, so it should be as easy as possible for the people doing it. Then you get more farmers and lower prices plus more stability because there will be experianced people around if you need to switch crops because of a rot/plague.AS shown with a arab spring, I think the root cause of many civil war is food prices and availability. Nothing mobilizes people like the thought that they can get food. And there is just SO MANY PEOPLE.In america, the soldiers are out numbered 300:1 by the population if they stop getting food, and realistically the government services would totally fall apart once there is a severe problem.Any institution will be replaced by something that can get food more efficiently once there is a big shortage, literally by 100% unified vote.Also, water is even more important. The phosphate fertilizers have been destroying water pretty good. There is a big danger to over banning farming chemicals, its really not a joke (damages fish ecosystem, probobly involved in global warming, and possibly future health problems from having abnormal amounts of algee making whatever they make around).and I am not an expert on the statistics but to me, it looks like they just out source the criminal activity, with nearly no loss of supply, while we pay for higher food prices, have a unstable food market and have environmental problems (algal bloom). Seriously USA food prices WTF?!!! And we just end up paying more for border security and its probobly not doing much save for some popcorn headlines once in a while.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 11:49:44 pm
content: @Davis HessBloomberg and I were almost classmates in college. He oversimplifies, or that was said tongue-in-cheek. While 3rd generation farmers in my area (i.e., near my age) might never have gone to college, the 4th generation are often college graduates. A local husband and wife team, about 1-1/2 mile away, run a wonderfully successful farming/nursery business, and they are both Ohio State graduates. They have more than tripled in size in the past 12 years. Farming today is quite technical to be successful..

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 04:07:29 am
content: Bloomberg could probably teach anyone to make electronics. Buy a piece of fiberglass. Drill some holes in, stuff in some parts and apply power.Oversimplification is an understatement.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 09:12:07 am
content: "Gator-aide. It's got electrolytes, its what plants crave."If you want to feel worse.... go and watch some of the public stop and ask interviews on farming with the younger generation. They are presently brain washed into this "climate emergency" ending the world in a decade or two that they honestly believe farmers and farming is their enemy and they want it STOPPED.Honestly you couldn't make it up!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 10:44:42 am
content: Quote from: paulca on June 19, 2024, 09:12:07 amIts not just the youth. The policies of many European governments, largely run by the middle aged, are to shut down farms, even though most of those countries are not self sufficient in food even now.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 11:16:38 am
content: Quote from: coppice on June 19, 2024, 10:44:42 amCorrect. There is an increasing tendency to "blame Them, not Us" in the air.It bodes badly for the future.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 12:20:51 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on June 18, 2024, 11:49:44 pmI took Bloomberg's statement to be along the lines of Hillary's and Obama's bitter clingers statements or Hillary's basket of deplorable statement. Reading it all again for context, I still take it that way. He was saying farmers are stupid, which as you and others point out, is not the case. Farming is even very data driven now.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 01:38:27 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 19, 2024, 12:20:51 pmYes, farming is very data driven. Modern harvesters map the yield across each field, to find the parts that need more fertilizer than others. Then during the following planting they apply fertilizer according to the yield map made during harvesting, and analyses of the varying soil moisture levels across the same fields, all GPS controlled. Irrigation planning is also controlled in similar ways. Farming is as high tech as most industries these days.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 02:21:24 pm
content: My experience with purchasing acids and poisons is if you want small quantities here in the UK it is next to impossible to obtain but if you buy it in 200 L drums it is easy.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 04:53:20 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 19, 2024, 01:38:27 pmthis totally depends where and how rich the farm owner is. A great deal of economical food is produced by basically 1960 techniques with some cheap add ins if they are easy enough. The production cost for old methods can be exceedingly cheap. Smarter farmers might find cheap consultants essentially to run some tests if there is trouble but I don't think its anywhere near standard procedure to spend money on this kinda stuff unless your like a industrial level farm that basically has assurances that it will get paid.Usually the smaller farmers that have been in the game for a long time without getting knocked out are exceedingly frugal. Because in many places, its not the yield, its the market, that screws your farm. Speculating on which crops will sell profitable is HUGE and its easy to have a very successful harvest that gets basically recycled into dirt if there was a demand shift. I have seen fields of perfectly edible and picturesque food go to waste because the market basically ensured that you won't make a dime of profit even if it was picked and grown for free because transpiration cost to demand areas will slaughter the profits. It seems that farmers have occasional run ins with Zimbabwe style produce super inflation. You can work against this by varying your portfolio but just like anything else, this might just get you by with the absolute minimum profit that allows you to live at a near poverty level after your operation is paid off. Farmers that have invested alot into their operation are the ones up in arms whenever the government does something because instead of being disappointed after a season like cheap farmers, they get kicked in the balls. Kind of like the car mechanic that has 250k on loan from snap-on tools.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 06:06:27 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 19, 2024, 01:38:27 pmThe farmers I am aware of spend considerable time, especially when work in the fields is not needed, performing maintenance on their equipment, which is no easy task when so much farm equipment has considerable electronics. They also prepare ahead of time to perform emergency maintenance as needed because when they are working in the fields, delays can cause considerable loss.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 06:29:06 pm
content: its rich farmer vs poor farmer.There is the guy with 4 specialized tractors with GPS, salaried ensured employees, and service contracts with john deere. And a aircraft hanger grade barn that makes you think your in space. Might even have a HR.then there is the guy with 1 old ass tractor, jury rigged attachments and hires farm hands at the bar as needed. I feel like there is ALOT of this guy. Less now, but still. They work out of a prehistoric barnBoth are important.But england is KNOWN for its luxury farming. Infact, there is like organized crime there that is entirely focused on stealing and chopping/reselling expenisve english farm equipment. They don't have land there, not alot... so the efficiency of a plot is maximized as much as possible, leading to very high tech being considered necessary.But I don't think you could call england a bread basket. Its not like the outskirts of germany and beyond. But you get your cheap produce and wheat from those guys. And I hear the US has plenty of older style smaller farmers, because its damn big and land is cheaper, so you don't need to maximize it.It has benefits too, there is less over farming of land. I doubt the english have soil totally figured out. And its more susceptible to blights.I imagine there is MUCH LESS spread of disease. Its like people, there is super spreading events (international + concert venue, party rooms) and isolated small stuff with regulars.A super dense high speed machine could contaminate alot of plants very quickly with plant diseases. And mass food processing centers are known to contaminate large amounts of food that can hurt alot of people with bacteria. It all has its benefits and downsides...I feel like I read about some world threatening plant disease fairly regularly. They seem to deal with it but I think its better to have a good amount of back up

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 07:06:46 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on June 19, 2024, 06:29:06 pmI think you totally miss the point. The UK has a totally deranged government, trying to shut farms down as polluting horrors, like eating is optional. I guess the bulk of the population eating is considered optional by some of the these highly privileged people. Farmers actually have no choice but to use fertilizer sparingly, because if they don't minimise the runoff into rivers they will be forced out of business by the state.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 08:35:33 pm
content: That's ok, you will eat bugs.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 10:10:08 pm
content: would ammonia not solve this problem? I thought the gaseous one had little runoff. the terrorist safer ammonium phosphate is the big problem with runoff.Usually smart things choose food over safety. Most animals start taking risk when they hungry. england evolve past that point lol... isent that some oddball buddhist offshoot cult belief that you don't need to eat if your good enough at meditating?i am sure statistically, even with some kinda home grown terrorism, there is still more violent crime from people committing crime for better food then there are terrorists committing crimes. like 0.05% chance of being stabbed so someone can buy a hamburger or the good cereal instead of 0.0000000000000001 percent change that a alquida is going to bomb youlike seriously nothing alive is safe when its hungry lol

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 09:17:22 am
content: I believe it's the CO2 production when making fertilizer that is the issue causing fingers to be pointed at "Industrial Farming"States are introducing taxes on fertilizers and penalties for using amounts within bands. These taxes/fees are not calibrated to "yeild". So using a lot of fertilizer to make a lot of crops will cost the farmers profits compared to a failing crop with little fertilizer.Not just Europe. I believe Canada has begun similar.The general populos have been spun down a long, long rabbit hole of different ways to get them to pay more for food. Like "organic produce". So they seem to think that all farms can return to little sleepy mixed private eco farms (like those lovely English Manor farms) using only raw animal dung and natural methods and NO industrial chemical fertilisers or pesticides. This is what the good people of the likes of England want. Fantasy.Individual regions might be okay, but overall the world cannot sustain a 1/5th production rate and keep the current population alive. I believe we have passed the point where industrial farming IS required to feed the planet already.When I try and explain the issues to numb skulls they start to get confused when you explain... what you take from the land, you must give back, or you make a desert. If you take tons of vegetables out of the field, you have to put back equal quantities of the elements you took. Otherwise you will just end up with salt and sand. They can be in different forms of course. You would be surprised how many people think that 100% of plants come from just water and air.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 02:40:25 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on June 20, 2024, 09:17:22 amJust to be clear about the connection here, the production of ammonia fertilizers, including ammonium nitrate, start with using methane as a source for hydrogen to make the ammonia. Big fertilizer plants are located at petroleum refineries.This is why the price of natural gas is closely correlated with the price of fertilizer. At the start of the Russia and Ukraine fiasco when the US started supplying Europe with natural gas, fertilizer prices in North America tripled. Every one of those tall fertilizer silos you see at various farms became worth a house.If you want to make fertilizer, then you need a source of hydrogen. Electrolysis is not economical, but there are high temperature water cracking processes which could be powered by a nuclear reactor if you want green fertilizer.What happened not too long ago in Sri Lanka when they forced replacement of petrochemical sourced fertilizers with natural ones demonstrates the problem. They lost 50% (?) of their food production.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 02:46:32 pm
content: Quotetoyotas ammonia engine suddenly dont seem as green as it makes out

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 03:31:35 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 20, 2024, 02:40:25 pmThey simply abruptly banned imports of fertilizers, as if organic ones would appear out of nowhere, especially in a poor country as Sri Lanka. Who'd guess it would result in the food crisis. EU knuckleheads try doing something similar too, so many government buildings got fertilized with manure by protesting farmers, although most of the news outlets refrained from talking about it as if it did not happen.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_European_farmers%27_protests

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 04:31:13 pm
content: The Haber process was invented in 1909 and earned a Nobel Prize in 1918. I suppose Sri Lanka wants to return to 19th century agriculture. Good luck feeding its population. Don't many of the green politicians also want to ban cows?

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 06:58:08 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on June 20, 2024, 04:31:13 pmIIRC Sri Lanka already under went the famine that resulted.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 07:38:06 pm
content: CO2 increase might be the effect, not the cause, some professors in this documentary are saying.Climate the Movie: The Cold Truthefenigsonhttps://rumble.com/v4klh96-climate-the-movie-the-cold-truth.htmlQuoteQuoted from the brief description of the linked documentary.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 07:41:35 pm
content: Getting better, but domestic production still doesn't suffice:https://reliefweb.int/disaster/ce-2022-000199-lkahttps://reliefweb.int/report/sri-lanka/import-ban-chemical-fertilizers-and-other-agrochemicals-short-term-impacts-selected-pfcs-and-potato-crop-december-2022However, my comment was meant to refer to lack of foresight by its leaders, which is common in many countries including the US.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 06:27:30 am
content: IMO the whole GUN and WEAPON thing appears to be rife with hypocrisy.'Guns bad...'. They say, but then they say;'We must fund weapons (guns / ammo) to 'XYZ' country, to help them.'Of course, country is big, and diverse opinions are in play, but the above quoted stuff (often) comes from same source.(Snarky), I've often maintained a posture supporting BOTH SIDES, of ridiculous hypocrisy...;'Guns bad, then how about we confiscate all our guns....send those confiscated weapons, to XYZ country, at War'!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 06:36:31 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on June 20, 2024, 07:41:35 pmbut it never come close to soviet agricultural policies ! they went after the spirit of the research and chemistry, not just focused on measured side effects.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 02:10:52 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on June 20, 2024, 07:41:35 pmThe worst part about these decisions is when they prove to be a disaster the perpetrators usually say something like "well, who could have seen that coming?" when every expert told them it would.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 03:18:52 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 22, 2024, 02:10:52 pmPeople don't like experts. People don't want to listen to experts. So people no longer vote for politicians who consult experts and act on expert opinion.Experts are part of "them"!!! Every conspiracy theorist, environmentalist and climate hippy knows this.In fact, repeatedly the UK, having employed scientific experts in government, simply sacked them when they scientifically contradicted policy. (Professor Nutt for example, there have been others). His demise came when he was asked to back a health campaign specifically against Ecstacy. He pointed out that if the country was to enforce anything practical, regarding public safety, it should focus it's efforts on reducing alcohol deaths and hand the drug problems over the medical institutions. He was booted out of government simply for providing a report packed with empirical evidence.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 03:38:51 pm
content: About 25 years ago, one of my college classmates ran for the US House of Representatives (from another State). When he won his seat, he doubled the number of PhD physicists in that august body.A few years later, another PhD physicist (from my State) was elected, and the number grew to three: a conservative Republican and two liberal Democrats.While all three were in office, the Chicago Tribune interview them together: they all agreed that whenever another member (of either party) asked their technical opinion, he did not want advice on the best answer and only wanted to confirm the opinion he already had.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 08:16:07 pm
content: With all respect to your technically competent classmate, I'm beginning to think that appropriately qualified people in various fields (nominated by their peers?) should be dragged, kicking and screaming, into public office. I'm not sure I trust anyone who actively seeks public office any more, they just don't seem verygoodeffective / trustworthy when they get there.Maybe it's an age thing.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 11:17:03 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 20, 2024, 07:38:06 pmHow dare you?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 11:45:09 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 20, 2024, 02:40:25 pmHaving an ongoing War didn't really help.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 12:35:10 am
content: Quote from: paulca on June 20, 2024, 09:17:22 amIt would help to get rid of the factory farms that make comparatively little food for all the resources they use, replace them with sustainable (or at least "less unsustainable") farms.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 12:49:22 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on June 24, 2024, 12:35:10 amWe haven't had a sustainable farm for 10,000 years. Those super fertile cradles of civilisation we learned about in school history lessons are just that - history,.The more you try to approach sustainable the less the farm produces. This is a bit of a problem in a world with 8 billion people.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 02:13:30 am
content: Changing the process to a more efficient one goes a long way. Growing crops to run a factory farm that converts that to food at around a 10% efficiency is a poor use of resources, instead it makes more sense to grow crops that can be directly used as food.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 07:41:34 am
content: Quote from: coppice on June 24, 2024, 12:49:22 amThat's the problem that remains unsolved for 10,000 years. Even if you reduce the number dramatically in one way or another, under favorable conditions it will start growing again resulting in the same overcrowded world.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 08:08:48 am
content: Jeez, this may not be the most derailed thread on the internet that i have read, but ist surely is up there, especially considering how short it is

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 08:50:08 am
content: Quote from: Njk on June 24, 2024, 07:41:34 amA significant increase in efficiency for energy production and food production would both result in population increase. Yes. They do already explain the growth over the past 2 centuries. Whether the methods were "sustainable" is another story, but efficiency dramatically increased at this point in history, and the rest follows.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 09:33:09 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 24, 2024, 08:50:08 amIt's these feedback loops in nature which make me question a lot of proxy science like climatology. If you put 0.000001% more emphasis on one feedback over another you end up with a very different answer. What is actually happening is often hidden in plain sight too, but not seen until with hindsight.While the population has been increasing over that time, the birth rate has been plummeting. So it is not a social/biological positive feedback response. We are responding with a negative stimulus on population. The more energy and food the more time nations have to spend on education and enablement, which has a tendency to reduce family sizes, empowering women out of being baby factories and housewives .Population has been increasing primarily because 200 years ago infant mortality was about 85%.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 09:54:14 am
content: Quote from: paulca on June 24, 2024, 09:33:09 amA cursory search indicates that in the UK in 1820 (which wasn't so different to the rest of the world), the infant mortality rate was ~1/3 in 1800. You claim a 1/6 survival rate, whereas it was more like 4/6.https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041714/united-kingdom-all-time-child-mortality-rate/Even in worse places, it only reached 3/6.https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality-in-the-pastI recommend you look at population vs food supply, water supply and sanitation. You will find a stronger correlation with population growth.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 11:02:06 am
content: Quote from: paulca on June 24, 2024, 09:33:09 amTry looking at the UK's population graph. It takes off after 1769, the year the first efficient steam engine was patented. Look at other countries, and you see a similar pattern. Efficient machines drove the population increase. Access to affordable energy drives all human development. Sure, hygiene and other factors were figured out in the boom that followed, and led to the situation we have today, but it all started with efficient machines releasing huge amounts of affordable energy.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 11:28:25 am
content: Quote from: coppice on June 24, 2024, 11:02:06 amYes, or another way of looking at it is the production is no longer limited by muscle power.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 11:31:01 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 24, 2024, 11:28:25 amAnd doomed slavery. Its no coincidence that 1769 is also the year that abolishionists started to get traction, or that abolishionist sentiments spread with the machines. Slavery is still a big deal, but not where there is advanced technology.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 11:41:46 am
content: Quote from: coppice on June 24, 2024, 11:31:01 amThere is "modern slavery", unfortunately. It is not a well-defined term since there are many variants, but musclepowerisn't the dominant theme.Examplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_contemporary_Africa

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 11:44:37 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 24, 2024, 11:41:46 amModern slavery is usually a term used for things like sex trafficking, but various industries, like chocolate production, are still (in)famous for a high use of good old traditional slavery.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 11:53:46 am
content: Quote from: coppice on June 24, 2024, 11:44:37 amAgreed, and to (try to) bring the conversation back to the topic title, probably mining metals - notoriously cobalt.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 11:59:42 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 24, 2024, 11:53:46 amMost of that isn't actual slavery, although its not much better. Its appallingly paid work, with no control over working conditions. Some of the early industrial revolution in Europe was no better, but that wasn't referred to as slavery. On the other hand indentured servitude, which is often described as slavery, was seen as a step up, and a way out of those horrible conditions into a respectable trade. Isn't life complicated?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 07:40:43 am
content: if you get those titanium tweezers, their like any other cheap tweezers. I needed to do a bit of bending so they line up (it was off by maybe 0.3mm) and I had to deburring pretty much everywhere (to make it nice instead of OK with a few NO)the searations are.. rolled. Its not cut. Also requires some work with diamond files if you want it proper.so its a good little DIY project to spend an hour on. But it should be fine for poking around in a plating beaker.also, I wonder what kinda titanium was used in oceangate. They said they downgraded to grade 3. I wonder if they actually downgraded to counterfeit grade 3, you know.. to keep the QC racket at bay.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 10:31:50 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 24, 2024, 11:53:46 amYes, with mostly children. Not pretty.