universal AVR ZIF board - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: shved
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 04:37:23 pm
content: Dear forum members, i have a question considering viability of planned product.Backstory: about 10 years ago i was broke student and made home-etched boards and projects for couple of connections i made in a local ham swap-meat. Usually simple AVR projects, audio stuff, etc. Now i work with a lot of regular clients(boards for audio, power-tools, CNC, AVR, Arduino and radio), but I still have some contacts from old times.One of the old-time clients is bugging me for some of my old projects(boards, MCU hex files, etc.) periodically, and usually it ends with me shoeing them away, finding cheap boards on aliexpress, or ordering a cheap batch of boards.But yesterday he brought up one of my oldest projects: universal AVR ZIF board. As usual I've recommended him to search in China. Later he responded that Chinese do not make adequate universal AVR ZIF boards(for PIC they are a lot of choice), and he really wants another one of my old boards.I don't want to redraw a board and factory order a batch for just 1 guy.Photo is attached.The main question is: do you think this kind of assembled boards or kits, or bare boards are a viable as a product?You can PM me for statistics, If there are interest - I will redo the layout and spin-up a bunch of factory boards.Thanks in advance.Yuri(shved).

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 06:35:43 pm
content: I've seen universal zif socket block / pcb for pickit 2 and 3 programmers for 20$ usdYou had some interfaces pcb's for an avr dragon in the past, just solder an 40 zif socket and snap the corresponding pcb ...If you want to go that route, buy an good gold plated 48 pins zif socket, pricey tough and many dupont wires jumpers ...I had many programmers, many interfaces pcb's, the list goes on and on, many drivers conflicts, the simplest but x-pensive solution was to buy an universal programmer with an 48 pins zif socket, i was lucky to snatch an brand new but not used beeprog 2 for a mere 500$ usdOne of the most versatile and relatively less expensive is the TNM5000, it use cheaply priced standard sockets.You have the "old" minipro programmer who could program chips with higher voltage, the newest version has more limitationsIn the end you need to have an truth table to manage all the possibility(ies) you want to have or add in your universal socket pcbA simple 48 pins zif socket with a row of 24 pins 0.1" on each side would do fine.But you talk of 1 client ... i would not invest $$$ just for 1 clientmake him pay your search time / parts etc .... or simply make him pay for an minipro ?Examples, something like this ?https://www.ebay.com/itm/PIC-Programmer-Universal-Adapter-board-ZIF-socket-Programming-PCB-PICKIT3-or-2/333272679979?

author: shved
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 08:50:49 pm
content: You haven't quite understood me. All universal ZIF-40 adapters for sale cheap in China are for pickit2&3 and none are for AVRISP.Long time ago (~10 years) i used to sell such boards for AVR, the board(on the photo) supports AtTiny and AtMega, the most popular chips in dip packages(selectable by DIP SW), for SMD stuff i have a drawer full of different adapters too(DIY and commercial, one-hag-low and brand-name stuff) that's not the point. The layout and compatibility is totally different! This is for AVR's only, for PIC's, EEPROM's, etc. there are different ready-made cheap and better solutions.The demand for such boards is very low, my clients were: the hobby-student types, washing machine and elevator(lift) repair men, couple of friends(with a discount), old CNC machine maintenance guys and i sold some to local hams.I have the board in regular use for ~10 years, i have the files. The board can use re-layout because it was one of my first paid projects full-stop, there are some cringe-worthy layout, but everything works OK.I have 1 client that desperately wants one, but i just can't justify re-engineering and ordering a batch of boards.If there were even a little regular demand(2 customers per year) - I would of risked it. But it is first guy in ~3 years. So I'm testing the waters, if there is interest in this kind of thing - i can spin-up some boards and sell them for a reasonable price. Bare boards, assembled or kits, i'm not sure.Any thoughts?

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 11:37:42 pm
content: Since most AVRs and ICs have gone surface mount, I don't think there is much of a market. DIP packages sadly are dying out.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 08:42:48 am
content: Quote from: moffy on December 21, 2019, 11:37:42 pmThis, and while you could solder an SMD on an adapter board, this requireshavingsuch a board, and once you need this, the board can include the programming header as well - or even USB interface - explaining the popularity of Arduinos and similar.

author: shved
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 12:50:05 pm
content: I understand that DIP's are going old and rarely used in new products. In fact I myself am quite guilty.However, there're always a but! There are some usecases where you really do not want to dick-around with soldering adapter boars:-Old, low volume projects where SMD made little sense at the time, sometimes you need to repair(recalibrate, modify, etc.) or even re-spin old stuff. This were taken in to account in development and the chips are usually socketed and easily removable, but there was no need for ISP connector on the board.-Flashing new DIP or SMD(SOIC, ...) chips with ZIF SMD adapter that is usually 1:1 layout pass-through and a pain to connect with wire jumpers. So you just stick SMD ZIF adapter into a DIP ZIF adapter. For some clients the presentation is important, e.g. chips should look brand-new so no soldering to adapters.-Maintaining, repair and reverse engineering of semi-old industrial stuff. In some industries gear is full of AtTinys and AtMegas. Usually problems are due to ESD or water damage. For example last week I've replaced AtTiny2313 with 1 shorted pin(internal) in a MIG welder wire feeder board.The point is that I'm and couple of my old clients are still regularly use this kind of thing. And you defiantly can buy this sort of thing for PicKits in China, but for AVR there is very little demand, but there is a demand, just too small for even Chinese to bother.If you think that you can use this kind of thing or have some thoughts - post here or PM me.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 02:09:20 pm
content: *Some* PIC universal programmer boards can be used for AVRs with minimal conversion. e.g.AU group 2-in-1 or 3-in-1 Mini Lab.All it needs is an adapter cable to go from the Programmer's AVR ISP connector to either the 6P6C modular connector or the 6 way right angle SIL header on the Mini Lab, and a sticker with the AVR signal names to go over the PIC specific signal names.The only thing it doesn't have that's desirable for AVR ISP, is a clock source for 'fusebusting' AVRs that have been programmed so their internal oscillator is disabled. An easy fix for that if your programmer doesn't have an oscillator output that can be jumpered over to the mini lab, is to solder three female dupont ended jumpers to an 8 MHz oscillator module.There are cheaper alternatives, but you need one with all pins on the ZIF socket uncommitted and brought out to multi-way headers, and a full six pin PIC ICSP connector with four signals + Vdd and Ground available to jumper to the target. Any that use switches or non-wire jumpers to select a PIC pinout are a non-starter.

author: shved
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 02:27:05 pm
content: That is exactly what I've done before i made my board. ZIF DIP40 + 2 big headers and 6 jumper wires. It was very frustrating, and I'll never look back. That's why i made my universal AVR ZIF board(photo in 1'st post), to just select and write/read chips without all this wire bullshit.Select chip(instructions on the board silkscreen or stickers) => insert => burn => job done!

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 05:40:50 pm
content: Its true that switches are somewhat more convenient, but unless there are *LOTS* of contacts, enough to switch all the ISP signals and power and ground to the correct pins (and only the correct pins) of each supported target chip, a switched ZIF board has to compromise, e.g. by grounding pins other than the current target's Gnd pin, because they are needed for other target types. That is problematic if you need to program a chip with external reset disabled and internal oscillator enabled, and your firmware sets any pin as an output that conflicts with how the ZIF socket is wired.

author: shved
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 07:40:32 pm
content: Yep, i agree with the precautions. But majority of tasks can be solved with compromised solution. Any compromise engineering solution by definition can't be perfect, do everything and be fast/convenient. All the cheap Chinese pickit type boards are like that.In ~10years I've only encountered problems with couple of chips that were previously damaged(couple of pins blown shorted with ESD).If you need a crystal - just stuff the crystal + some caps in the same socket as the MCU.If you have locked the chip, blew some pins, accidentally switched off reset pin, etc. - there are different programmers(HV) and adapters available(but not common too) for that.This product is just general purpose AVR ZIF adapter that is good for regular work with AtMega and AtTiny chips.I understand that this is dead-end project. If even the Chinese are not doing it.I'll wait, if i find couple more people - i'll do a layout and order some boards.

author: shved
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2020, 04:15:18 pm
content: BTW, here are some photos of PIC & EEPROM variant.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 10:29:51 am
content: Huh? There are tons of doodads like this on eBay:https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-ATMEGA8-ATMEGA48-ATMEGA88-Development-Board-AVR-DIY-Kit-/183903735398?_ul=CHYou just pair it with the AVR programmer of your choice (like an avrisp) and off you go.

author: shved
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 11:28:58 am
content: You can't stuff AtTinys in those.Only for AtMegas of 1 sires.You obviusly haven't read main posts properly!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 03:57:02 am
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