Need help identifying these two components. (1980's vintage stuff) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: xnotx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2018, 02:14:04 am
content: Depotting this CDI made by Mitsubishi for Kawasaki that is filled with a soft epoxy and quarts or something...anyways, Can anyone identify these components?The one on the left reads:000555BBBwith a Japanese symbol over laid on top. Guessing it is 05B whatever it is.The one on the right is green with 3 leads, in a zip/offset, not sure if the two outer legs are manually positioned forward or if the component comes like that.I assume the notch on the one side is indicating front.Don't mind the uglinessI want to clean it up and draw out the schematic before I pull too many components out to test on the esr/lcr/scr tester.Thanks in advance!

author: rigrunner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2018, 02:31:30 am
content: I can't identify the parts directly but the 05B part looks like a high voltage diode. Similar case style to a WEP1083.The green part looks like a transistor/scr in a TO-202 case that has had its heat sink cut off.Hope that helps.

author: Bashstreet
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2018, 11:22:27 am
content: Sorry i cannot offer knowledge of the component but i have to comment that the board looks pretty crazy ! Where is it from what application is it used in ?I spotted one of the wires is corroded and broken but i am sure you know this.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2018, 11:32:29 am
content: I remember once seeing a family SCR's in those coloured packages with the slightly protruding tab. I seem to remember there were several colours for different devices in the family. I think it was a family of GE (General Electric) SCRs.I have attached a photo of a similar black-bodied GE SCR.

author: xnotx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2018, 01:42:51 pm
content: Quote from: Bashstreet on January 18, 2018, 11:22:27 amYea the quartz/epoxy mix is a real PITA, like excavating dinosaur bonesIt's a CDI unit from 81/82 Kawasaki KX80 (80cc dirtbike).Looks as though they changed the design in 83 then again in 84/5 and some more again but kept the stator design pretty much similar, so I would imagine they are all interchangeable until the magneto design went to an external type hal sensor.I'm interested in what changes they made in later years. Haven't seen a quad nor gate cdi design, so interests me.I don't really have plans on reusing it on a bike, but do want to use it for testing/designing a CDI tester.Quote from: amspire on January 18, 2018, 11:32:29 amVery nice find, thanks! will have to dig around and see what I find.

author: Bashstreet
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2018, 02:13:39 pm
content: I suppose it has kept the components stuck to the board all these years!Interesting Goop indeedIt might be (if you are not reusing the board) Some suitable chemical could melt it away.Not a expert on subject but we might have someone who has experience that can give recommendation.

author: xnotx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2018, 02:32:16 pm
content: I could use acetone but that stuff is brutal, and it's freezing outside lolI remember one time, as a dumb youngin, cleaning an air filter in acetone with bare hands... I noticed the foam filter growing in size and moments after my fingers burning like a mofoI really wish there was a source for catalogs of all these vintage components, guess preserving electronics history isn't on the top of anyone's listIt's hard to even find datasheets in some cases, like the toshiba C1004 chip on it, can't find a datasheet from toshiba, it's as if toshiba didn't even make it.Perhaps the green thing is a triac that was just made in green for Kawasaki?Got to start pulling out components to gain access for more bone pickingSo i'll see what the tester says!

author: Bashstreet
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2018, 02:40:58 pm
content: Yes acetone can give that nice tingle... indeed.I think there are quite few good sites that try preserve schematics and service manuals but they generally are for vintage radios amplifiers or oscilloscopes.Btw It is never bad idea to contact a company directly for questions. some are very good giving help some not so much..Sadly such customer support and care is disappearing it was not uncommon to get from manufacturer full service manual on request. Now.. well

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2018, 02:52:53 pm
content: Quote from: xnotx on January 18, 2018, 02:32:16 pmProbably not. During the 1980:ies it was quite common for some Japanese transistors to be green, often a complementary pair with a black NPN and a green PNP (and N and P channel MOSFET).

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2018, 03:23:04 pm
content: Image showing black and green transistor pair:http://symkrilag.uk/wp-content/uploads/imported/4/2SA1301PNP2SC3280NPN-GENUNE-TOSHIBA-COMPLAUDIO-POWER-TRANSISTORS-160V8A-181949092464.jpgDo some more excavation to show the text.

author: xnotx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2018, 09:42:58 pm
content: Cool, threw it on the tester and it says it is a thyristor.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2018, 03:56:41 am
content: Yeah, I'd have guessed the green one is an SCR. Pretty sure I have some in that same green color.The 05B thing could be a zener diode. And your 'Japanese symbol' is just some scrapes you made in removing the potting mix.

author: xnotx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2018, 05:32:08 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 21, 2018, 03:56:41 amWould you be able to take some pictures?Also, do you happen to have part number or know the manufacturer, etc?Thanks!

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2018, 05:03:50 pm
content: Well, if it checks out as a thyristor it's not dead, so that's nice.The IC could be who knows what. Number sounds like nonsense. It's a potted module, who would ever look anyway?..Tim

author: xnotx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2018, 10:08:46 pm
content: I've figured out the IC is an Toshiba IC4001BP a quad nor chipActually.... I might have gotten into a pickle pulling the, what I thought were, zener diodes. I might have a couple signal diodes in the bunch.Anyone good at distinguishing signal diodes from zeners?Some of them "activate" at around 15v going slowish with voltage increase. 1 activates at 1v, and a couple don't trigger at all.I can post a pic of the cleaned up board with layout of components and whatnot I made in paint.Anyone up for a challenge?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2018, 10:22:02 pm
content: "Activate"?"Slowish"?Signal diodes usually avalanche (breakdown -- looks like a regular zener diode, although old ones may not be avalanche rated and will die instead) at a higher voltage, like ~100V for a 1N4148. It might not be easy to tell that apart from a higher voltage 1N52xx series zener, but it's probably a reasonable assumption that it's a rectifier rather than a zener.Anything at lower voltage should very likely be a zener.There may also be a diac or something like that, which latches on when its avalanche voltage is exceeded. This is simply an SCR with the gate terminal chopped off, and made to turn on at a useful voltage (whereas a power SCR avalanches -- and triggers -- somewhere above its voltage rating). If testing one of these as a zener diode, you should find it has no breakdown at lower voltages, but then drops ~1V above breakdown.All diodes conduct the usual 0.3 to 1V in the forward direction, except the diac which should have the same behavior either way around.Sure, put up the layout.Tim

author: xnotx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2018, 10:26:26 pm
content: Very cool, will get on that. I'll have it up some time tomorrow.I'll take good pictures of the "zeners" or w/e they may be and maybe a video of what i'm talking about when testing.

author: xnotx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 03:24:30 pm
content: Ok, trying to find the working voltage on these diodes using a method I seen some youtuber do using the PSU to look for the change from Constant voltage to Constant current.My PSU however is sensitive and changes to CC easily if voltage is increased quickly in large enough steps. I figured that out after without and leads plugged into the PSU.https://youtu.be/BLLrq_TfkicI guess these are hughes diodes.Probably signal didoes at around 50v/100v. That seems to be the working voltage of this thing in certain areas. (a couple 50v/100v caps)Still hammering out the LTspice model, should have the LTspice file here shortly, hopefully someone can figure out suitable diode replacements, then I can work on a CDI testerHere is a dropbox rar of the images, but if people want I can compress a couple photos and upload them here.https://www.dropbox.com/s/2off41wfo9xls2u/diodes.rar?dl=0How about plotting them at different currents? like maybe 10ma then 25 then 50 then 100, etc...Thanks for the help everyone, much appreciated!

author: xnotx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 09:44:00 pm
content: LTspice project W.I.P (have not run yet)https://www.dropbox.com/s/ufo30vjy0y5ajmq/cdi_forum_1-23-2018.rar?dl=0

author: xnotx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 02:37:55 pm
content: Sorry for repeated replies.So yea that video of me testing the diodes... The psu behaves that way without any leads on it, so video is somewhat useless lolStill have not figured out what diodes to try.Thanks