FLIR usability question - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: CP
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 08:41:35 pm
content: Please excuse my lack of technical understandings. I am a novice hobby type and collector of obscure things. I am wondering if ther is any practical viability in the hardware I have. Wondering if it could possibly be interfaced with anything outside of original hardware. I know this is a broad question but I am just trying to assess usability of the item.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 09:01:16 pm
content: Hi CP and welcome to the forumThat is quite a beast you have yourself there ! I repair and collect Thermal imaging cameras but have never had 'eyes-on' of an aircraft FLIR pod before.With regard to what you have and its viability as a functioning thermal camera, much will depend on its age, detector cooling system condition (if used) and how it communicates its image data to the airframe to which it was attached. It will likely have motorised focus and possibly motorised zoom as well. The optics will deliver the thermal scene to the detector either directly, if it is a staring array, or via a scanning system if it is a single pixel scanning imager. If the camera is intended to be self contained in the pod with just remote power control, 'brightness' and 'contrast' inputs plus remote focus/zoom, you have a chance of getting it up and running. If it requires a complex controller in the airframe that carries out remote control and image processing duties, life will be much more difficult.If you can post more pictures of the pods interior I may be able to assist further. Even if it is a very large paperweight due to complexity of control, the lens assembly would still be very useful. I would certainly be interestedFraserUK

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 09:07:06 pm
content: I wonder if this is a 'Lantirn' AN/AAQ-13 Navigation pod from an F-15E ?Picture attachedIf it is such a pod, it cost Uncle Sam $1.38 Million per unitFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 09:14:34 pm
content: Here is the Lantirn Wiki page......https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LANTIRNFraser

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 09:33:01 pm
content: This is an great discovery for sure. I am not sure how it fell into your hands after it's decommission, but this is military grade thermal imager with some high tech and quality components. I think the cooling system will be the hardest to get running. As far as I know they run on liquid helium or liquid hydrogen. Not sure what of those are used in aircrafts.Please get it up running and hide it. Potentially the most interesting piece I have seen on this forum.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 09:34:10 pm
content: If the unit is a AN/AAQ-13 navigation pod that, according to the Wiki dates back to 1987, it will pre-date microbolometer technology and will likely use a scanning type thermal camera and cooled sensor. The sensor could be Liquid Nitrogen, gas, or Stirling cooled.A scanning FLIR camera will contain the following key parts...1. The lens assembly2. The first scanning mirror or Germanium prism3. The second scanning mirror or Germanium prism4. The Sensor lens block5. The thermal energy sensor6. The cooling system for the sensor, mounted to its rear via a 'cold finger'.The position output of the scanning galvanometers and thermal energy sensor feed into the image processing block that creates the image that is then presented to the pilot on the cockpit FLIR screen.Your FLIR camera is pretty old in thermal imaging technology terms. Such 'mechanical' scanning cameras can be a challenge to get operational. The cooling system for the thermal sensor is essential to operation and creates a temperature of minus 196 Celsius (77K) at the cold finger. This can be a challenge to get working and without it, the unit is a very neat paperweight.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 09:44:31 pm
content: Looks like the communications link to the airframe is via the 1553B data bus.http://www.f-16.net/f-16_armament_article2.htmlThe cut-away view of the Navigation pod looks like your unit. It looks like both the navigation pod and targeting pod contain FLIR cameras.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 09:53:48 pm
content: This is a nice page detailing the Navigation and Targetting systems.....http://www.spyflight.co.uk/LANTIRN.htmFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 12:26:56 pm
content: Just to put this pod's potential use into perspective.The unit is the terrain navigation unit that partners with the ground following radar, it is not, as I mistakenly initially thought, the targeting pod that provides target acquisition and guidance for the airframe weapon systems. The camera appears to be the earliest version of this pod and would be a design from 1980. It is equivalent to the AGA 680 or AGEMA Thermovision 800 civilian scanning thermal camera.The pod is obviously ex military and I am a little surprised that it came onto the secondary market intact, but this could well be an indicator of how old its technology is within that nice casing. The Military do dispose of all manner of equipment that could be re-purposed if in the wrong hands. They assess the risk of such and create an appropriate disposal docket for the hardware disposal process. This pod should have gone through such a process and likely cannot leave the US under ITAR rules. That does not mean it cannot be owned by a U.S. citizen however.As has already been stated, this pod should not be sent outside of the USA or sold to non US citizens. Doing so might cause the seller some issues if uncle Sam has made an error in the disposal process.It should also be remembered that some equipment is 'de-activated' before disposal. A bit like removing the firing pin on a firearm or drilling a hole through the barrel of a field gun. In the case of the navigation pod, there are many ways to 'put it beyond easy use'I agree that no-one on this forum is likely to explain the deep technical detail of the pods content or how to re-activate it, as such information is very likely to still be classified. I have provided as much unclassified information as I can on the likely design of the thermal camera. What the owner of this unit is missing is the information needed to communicate with the pods electronics package (that may, or may not be intact). It would be quite a task to restore this pod to operation. I can understand the owners desire to better understand the challenge though. Hence my comments on the unit. It would seem criminal to break up such a piece of hardware but sadly that may be its fate. Maybe a modern fighting aircraft museum would be interested in it as a display piece, but the military are already pretty generous on that front and supply such hardware for display.I am grateful that the owner of this hardware has invited our comment on such an interesting thermal camera.Fraser

author: Spirit532
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 01:12:50 pm
content: I suspect that the unit he has is missing an entire power supply section and the controls were provided from elsewhere.Whilst I would never part out such a unit(only temporarily perhaps, to play with the giant lens), I highly doubt it would work again without documentation.The best advice is to seek any information on where it came from, then talking to those that scrapped it, to find those that operated it, to find those that manufactured it, and so on, and so forth. This equipment is very old, so chances are they're just going to give you all the documentation they have, if you find said "they".

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 01:32:48 pm
content: A full teardown would be super interesting!

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 01:52:20 pm
content: The pod was made by Lockheed Martin and they will obey US document classification rules to the letter. They are a Military contractor who will only communicate with bona fide cleared persons. Virtually zero chance of obtaining the design technical documentation I regret to say.If the US is anything like the UK when it comes to classified documents, it takes a very long time for such to be declassified, and then, only when when in the public interest.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 09:32:56 pm
content: Thanks for the extra pictures. The thermal camera sensor is cooled using a Stirling mechanical Cryo Cooler. I have ringed it on the photo. The Cryo cooler contains ultra pure Helium at a decent pressure so care is needed if you decide to dismantle it. The Cryo cooler sadly does have a relatively short operational life and the Helium does tend to escape over many years. This units Cryo Cooler may, or may not be functional.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 11:25:32 pm
content: Hmmmmm, now I am doubting myself...... that item I ringed may not be a Stirling Cryo Cooler. It certainly looks like one but upon revisiting it, it may be some form of compressed gas heat exchanger.I am no expert on those but the original Hughes thermal imagers used bottled Argon gas that expanded in a heat exchanger and cooled the sensor. As has been stated by others, this unit could have been cooled using other liquified gasses as well.Sorry I cannot be more certain but without the unit in front of me to inspect, it is hard to establish the identity of all the parts.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 11:35:39 pm
content: Examples of Stirling Cryo Coolers. The ones that are in two pieces with a connecting tube are a split design but basically work the same as the fully integrated coolers. The thermal sensor sits at the end of the 'cold finger' and that is where the very low (77K) temperature is produced.Fraset

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 12:14:08 am
content: This teardown of a handheld cooled thermal camera of the 1980's shows the various parts that make up the complete camera assembly. It uses a spinning mirror and cooled multi pixel linear array thermal sensor. Single pixel sensors need two mirrors. The sensor is Argon gas cooled but, as you can see, the cooler is quite small.http://www.prc68.com/I/ThermalIMagerDFOV.htmlI am thinking the item I ringed in your pictures is still likely to be a Stirling Cryo Cooler, but the only way to know is to check the cooling assembly for any unexpected pipes etc that would indicate a gas cooling heat exchanger.Fraser