Worse electrocution - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: goldcoin
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 04:00:43 pm
content: Is it worse to get electrocuted at 100 V DC or at 100v RMS AC, 60 Hz ?

author: ruffy91
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 04:12:49 pm
content: DC will poison you because of electrolytic reactions, AC will make your heart go crazy. So if it's for a short time AC is more dangerous and for a long time DC is more dangerous.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 04:15:38 pm
content: Quote from: goldcoin on July 15, 2015, 04:00:43 pmDead is dead. I'm not it matters which death is worse("Electrocution" = "death by electricity")

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 04:27:16 pm
content: In the early days of electricity there was a fight between two companies1. Edison proposed DC to be used because AC was too dangerous2. Tesla/Westinghouse proposed AC to be used, because DC was too dangerousWe know, that Westinghouse won this battle, because all houses have AC these days but probably not because of the less danger but more of the fact that AC can be transported much easier than DC.But ironically, AC was chosen for the electric chair in the USA.It probably will not make much difference, you can die from both.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 04:49:10 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on July 15, 2015, 04:15:38 pmPresumably, the OP mean the process of dying. I suppose whichever one knocks your brain out first is better.Not basing on firm knowledgehere but guessing because AC is not a steady current, the constant pulsing causes nerve cells signals to be disrupted, whereas, DC would just "cook until done". So AC isprobablybetter for the executed.Often, witness reaction on execution is the twitching and convulsion during the electrical-execution. Unless the witness is seeing the brain waves, it is meaningless. If the body twitch for days yet the brain is long since dead, the executed isn't going to feel anything anyhow.Come to think of it, this is the one time we can all speak with equal footing in experience. I doubt we have a forum member with direct experience who can contradict or to agree...

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 04:53:11 pm
content: I can't say about 100 VDC, but 80 VDC just feels like a slight buzz, not painful at all. Of course long term it might do some damage, but short term it just feels like sticking your tongue across a 9v battery.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 04:59:26 pm
content: Either will do the job, probably why the local government here refused to sanction my plugging in my ex wifes electric chair i built [ always someone who wants to spoil the party ]

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 05:45:32 pm
content: ElectroBoom has some experience (I would never do the stuff he does..) in his video "The Pain of Electricity (AC versus DC)". Good for a laugh - Enjoy...

author: mmagin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 08:07:03 pm
content: Quote from: ruffy91 on July 15, 2015, 04:12:49 pmWRT to DC poisoning you, it seems like that would take quite a long time, and you would need to be using electrodes with rather toxic ions. (Not sure you could get enough copper dose with copper wires -- thinking more like some kind of fluid or gel electrodes with some kind of toxic salt dissolved in them.)

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 08:12:47 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on July 15, 2015, 04:27:16 pmThat was unambiguously true at the time of the Westinghouse/Edison battle. AC transformers are easy to build. Stepping DC up or down requires more sophisticated technology than a simple transformer.But these days, we step DC up and down all the time with buck/boost switching power supplies. At the same voltage and current levels, DC can be more efficiently transported than AC, because DC power lines don't suffer from skin effect, don't have to charge the capacitance of the line each cycle, and don't radiate any of their power away. The really long distance high power transmission lines are often DC these days, even though most of the power grid is AC.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_currentAnyway, sorry for the sidetrack. I know of no convincing argument why either type of current would be more dangerous than the other, at equivalent voltage and current levels.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 09:17:40 pm
content: Quote from: AG6QR on July 15, 2015, 08:12:47 pmVery true, we have almost every day these discussions in the German news, because a lot of new long distance powerlines will be DC and under ground.My comment was only in relationship to the olden days, well over a hundred years ago and why AC was chosen for the electric chair. I read one report that Tesla himself killed dogs on stage with DC current, to show how dangerous DC was. Allegedly a similar dog did not die, when he put high frequency AC trough the dog as a conductor and proving to the world that AC would be the way to go. May be an urban legend, who knows.

author: f5r5e5d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 10:03:15 pm
content: pretty sure that was Edison showing AC was dangerous:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_CurrentsQuote

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 10:41:16 pm
content: Quote from: goldcoin on July 15, 2015, 04:00:43 pm100VDC is much safer than 100VAC.100VAC is really 141V peak and the alternating current is much more likely to disrupt the heart's rhythm than steady DC.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 12:51:59 am
content: Current passing through the heart (not the brain) is generally what kills, usually by causing a fatal arhythmia. I believe it is true that this can be achieved with lower AC voltage than DC voltage. I suspect this is due, at least in part, to capacitive coupling across cells with the mebranes between cells acting as dielectrics. Brief pulses of DC across the heart are generally not fatal and in fact used routinely to bring cardiac muscle cells " in sync" - so called "DC Cardioversion". But enough current of any sort and you start cooking cells....I think one of the reasons DC can be more dangerous in some instances is due to its ability to sustain an arc.

author: tron9000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 08:12:26 am
content: 30mA through the body is enough to kill you. This is why RCD's have 30mA trips or less. So hand to hand electrocution is very likely to cause death!Some would say it depends on how hydrated you are, how much you sweat.I have accidentally hook myself in series with a 230V AC welding inverter, they were bought in from china and need to be tested: using quick connect setup that consisted of a choccy block terminal and a 16A commando plug. Forgot to power off, unscrewed the live, place my finger on the screwdriver whilst still on terminal and grabbed the bare end on the live to the inverter! Needless to say it felt like this:https://youtu.be/Wh7h-wSLz9I?t=3mfor about 0.2seconds before RCD kicked in! Fortunately I was sweating like hell that day, must have took a conduction path through my back where I was the most sweaty, but boy were my arms sore in the morning...I don't work there any more thank god, place was a death trap!EDIT: corrected typical RCD trip current

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 08:22:06 am
content: Previously on this forum...c4757p:QuoteJust be careful with anything over 48v or so...

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 08:35:50 am
content: All I can say is that 120 VAC at 60 Hz tingles while you're touching it.But, 120 VAC at 400 Hz hurts for half the day afterwards......Speaking from experience.50 VDC from the phone line has a pretty good bite too.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 08:41:25 am
content: Quote from: tron9000 on July 16, 2015, 08:12:26 amIf the job involves testing mains equipment up to 16A without fitted plugs, don't take it if the employer is too cheap to havehttp://www.cliffuk.co.uk/products/tools/quicktest.htmor similar on each bench. If they try to make you use a suicide cord report them to your national safety agency (HSE, OSHA etc.), update your CV and *ALWAYS* put the suicide cord *SUPPLY* *END* mains plug in your pocket before altering the connections!

author: Aodhan145
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 09:04:03 am
content: Quote from: tron9000 on July 16, 2015, 08:12:26 amAre most RCD's not 30mA or less. I have a 10mA RCD installed in my electronics bench so it goes before my houses.During the War of Currents Edison went around electrocuting stray cats with AC to prove that AC was more dangerous.

author: tron9000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 10:36:29 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on July 16, 2015, 08:41:25 amI was younger, fresh out of uni and didn't know any of my rights back then. I knowMUCHbetter now! Would be a bit late to raise it now as it was 10 years ago and I think the company is no longer about.Quote from: Aodhan145 on July 16, 2015, 09:04:03 amYep I stand corrected: 30mAhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_deviceAlso: Edison - what a twat!

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 11:04:52 am
content: I do know that 100V at 1.8GHz burns a hole in the end of your finger. That hurt for weeks.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 11:15:38 am
content: Quote from: tron9000 on July 16, 2015, 10:36:29 amI don't think very highly of any university engineering course that doesn't inculcate basic safety compliance appropriate to its field. IMHO its part of their duty to train future engineers and needs to be covered in more detail than just having to read and sign the lab safety sheet at the beginning of the course. As a student, I have argued safety issues with the principal of a technical college, when a course project had an unearthed metal body toggle switch in the live mains feed to it. The project requirements were updated to include earthing external metalwork that penetrated the case, and to make sure the feed was to the tip terminal of the panel mount fuseholder, not its ring terminal.Perhaps someone else dobbed the company in to the HSE. If they were running a business with multiple safety violations, they were obviously too cheap to pay for safety, so may not have been able to pay for the fines and safety upgrades + withstand the interruption of business. Also once HSE gets involved, all the other agencies tend to as well . . . .I did say update your CV if you whistle blow - even if its anonymous, there's a significant chance of the job going away . . . .

author: tron9000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 12:38:13 pm
content: Also a little bit about employee/employer H&S and the law would have been a good subject to touch on. Yes it really needs to be taught more, especially on degree level engineering courses - design and safety!

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 05:10:49 pm
content: I was taught years ago that whether or not you were sure that a circuit was dead and despite instruments agreeing one should always use the back of one's fingers as a final test before actually grasping a cable. Whether AC or DC you would be likely to be jerked away from the cable if it was still live.Right or wrong I'll swear that, at least in mains circuitry, one can often detect that a circuit is live just by putting one's hand close to a cable; furthermore, for me at least, such a feeling has saved me from a nasty jolt on a number of occasions.NOTE I do not suggest that any such belief should be relied upon over proper safety procedures and testing but if your 'gut' tells you danger then listen to it.