IoT - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2022, 11:13:11 pm
content: We've all heard the terms IoT or M2M or Cloud, but I'm curious, what do people think of it as a well used marketing phrase, in reality IoT doesn't really mean anything, it just describes how not the what, the amount of start ups i've seen over using the IoT phrase without using it in any context is overwhelming, I still don't know what that business is offering just that it will likely be connected to the internet or a network of some description.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 01:11:47 am
content: Quote from: Wilksey on December 09, 2022, 11:13:11 pmWhy does it matter? It's all utter bullshit, and pointless gadgetry with the gimmick of it being "smart". Toss it in your mental trash can and forget you ever heard it. SERIOUSLY. Don't waste ANY time on this crock. AT ALL.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 12:52:48 pm
content: Currently my favourite example of the IoS(hit) is a Ring doorbelll.Daughter has a Ring doorbell which sends a message to her phone whenever someone is approaching the door. She also has a delightful, intelligent, very alert small dog with - as the rescue centres term it - a "high prey instinct".Didn't take long for the dog to recognise the "somebody approaching front door" message, and react accordingly. Even when the door in question is 40 miles away and receding at >=70mph.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 01:05:54 pm
content: Over-hyped nonsense. I laughed when I saw a commercial for a fridge that you can see the contents of from your phone. The buyers of those things clearly have too much disposable income.

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 06:50:26 pm
content: I have quite a handful of clients putting IoT ineverything. Even with things that you would not expect or think you would need connectivity, it has a module in it talking back to the cloud.Once you start adding these devices to your life, they do help insomeways.I have about a dozen "smart" plugs around the office. They turn certain bits of equipment on and off such as fume extraction, lighting, and even my pick and place machine.IoT smoke alarm is actually really good. Regular smoke alarms obviously work but these things can alert you while you are not in the property. Lets you tune into the CCTV to watch your life savings go up in flames.I don't see any issues with "smart" doorbells either. They are just intercoms but over the internet.My only real issue is that I WANT ONE APP. NOT 1 FOR EACH PRODUCT.As for the use of the terms. There is always a need for basic terms that anyone can understand. IoT and Cloud are good examples.If it is labeled as "IoT", I know it has a way to talk to other devices and send messages in or out of a network. It is not just a dumb brick."Cloud" is overused and a mess in my opinion. I rent dedicated servers on a monthly basis. That is called a "dedi" or a "root" server. But the same thing was billed by the hour, well that is now a "Cloud" server.Oh and those "cloud" servers are also just "instances" or what we use to call "VPS". And also the cloud is object storage. And Networking. And SaaS for databases, email, APIs etc.Oh and also those SaaS things are either just "instances" that are one-click installs ready to go or are "managed" but it is the "cloud" so we don't separate them.But yea. Too many people are letting these devices take over their lives. There is a limit.Sent using TapaTalk on Samsung Smart Fridge.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 08:26:21 pm
content: Most IoT is just useless gimmicks and slapping of buzzwords onto stuff hoping to attract the type of customers who bought a 3D TV five minutes after Avatar 1 came out. But there are uses where it's actually useful and improves the product or simplifies the application - when done properly and safely and when there's an alternative available to when the external server crashes.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 08:32:50 pm
content: ... And when the company stops the service.... And when the company deletes your ability to use what you've rented (not bought).Both of those have occurred in the past, and it is by no means an exclusive list.

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 09:02:23 pm
content: And that is why we need the open source community to hack these devices and create a self hosted service as an alternative.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 10:38:24 pm
content: The biggest problem with IoT for me is maintainability.For instance I've been looking at making our heating system 'smart', and looked at Tado, Drayton Wiser and a few other systems.All of these systems require a 'phone app', the Tado system 'strongly suggests' a paid subscription for most of its functionality, but the biggest issue is that there is no guarantee in 10 years time, these things will still work, or if for instance there is an internet outage, I will be able to have a warm house. (In fact, Tado has no way to manually override the heating in this case!) Nor is their a guarantee the subscription will stay at £3 a month -- or that the free tier will remain.I really wish that more manufacturers would make a smart system that works locally. I don't mind having a hub in the house to accommodate this, but it needs to work without a server. And ideally remote functions would work too, but getting customers to open their router settings and set up DNS is probably a bit too difficult, but would enable self-hosted systems. I suspect there's no business in doing that, though, so it won't happen any time soon.

author: Traceless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 11:09:24 pm
content: Quote from: MikeK on December 13, 2022, 01:05:54 pmWhen you mentioned the fridge I immediately had to think of the scene linked below, I think the conversation pretty much sums it up"Smart" Fridge

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 11:10:52 pm
content: Are there any open source projects for this with actual decent hardware?Not talking 3d printed stuff.Id love to get into an open source but decent hardware development program.It can have a cloud service but also allow end users to host their own of they wish.Would be nice to replace my crappy dumb thermostats with something that is not owned by Az or Google but actually looks nice.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 11:17:17 pm
content: Quote from: Jackster on December 13, 2022, 11:10:52 pmI think the closest you get is buying Zigbee TRVs and tying them together with a Zigbee bridge running on a Raspberry Pi or similar, with some remote sensors thrown into the mix and some way to actuate a boiler control like with a relay. Or alter as appropriate for under floor heating, or heatpumps etc., as some of those devices have Zigbee capability.Technically the tado sensors use 6-LoWPAN which is "open" insofar as it is documented, uses IPv6 under-the-hood and you can get it to work with a TI dev board... but I've no idea if there's some kind of encryption or authentication sitting over the protocol that would make control by non-tado systems a possibility. In my limited Googling, I haven't found anyone who has got this to work, so either it's not an interesting enough problem to solve (fair enough) or it's very difficult to solve (which means even if the protocol is somewhat open, the devices can still go obsolete - not good.)

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 11:28:47 pm
content: I think obsolescence is one of those issues that will always be a problem with any smart device.My current dumb thermostats, while might die in 5-15 years because of silicone/electronics death, won't become obsolete. There is no WiFi or networking that could become a vulnerability point. It just measures the temperature and operates a relay to call the heating.As soon as you add something that is networked, you are guaranteeing hardware and software obsolescence.If the software works 10 years down the road, the network and encryption might be broken by then and not something that can be fixed with a software update...

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 12:40:41 am
content: All that shit is to make you more dependent, not less so. It's inherently biased towards that goal.To me, technology should be used to help people get more independent, and more resilient. Not the other way around.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 12:52:58 am
content: The day I trust IoT "smart" bollocks to turn on and off crucial things like machines containing ***heating elements*** and LOCKED DOORS behind which are my WORLDLY POSSESSIONS, will be a fine day indeed. In fact, said day will be the 12th of never, or if I'm busy, maybe later.The public are exceptionally naive to place trust in these gimmicko-doodle-schmuck companies. Too many "opinions" from self-proclaimed "experts" in IT. They can all go #### themselves.As has been implied, there's almost ZERO benefit to using this garbage, to the customer, and it ALL benefits the repeat sale and subscription model marketing dorks. Since when did humankind become THIS FRIGGIN IDIOTIC? Now, sadly, is when.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 01:41:06 am
content: Some strong opinions coming in!It certainly is an issue with companies going out of business - i've had several "smart" devices stop working because the company went bust and their servers shut down, one was a GPS tracker and the other was a fitness tracker, as soon as they lost contact with their overlord they stopped working, prime example is Dave's latest Sonos video of things being bricked as the company decide they are obsolete and you must upgrade to their newest product. Subscription models for these things after you've spent a pretty penny on them also takes the proverbial.The only real benefit to some smart devices are those to help the disabled out, but unless you find an open source device then you are at the manufacturers mercy. And yes having multiple phone apps to do things are a pain, which is where OpenHAB comes in handy.I do miss Silicon Valley! But proves a valid point, why a "smart" fridge? You may as well just have a shopping list on your phone, my nephew not that long ago went on a spending spree on my brother in law's Alexa, all conveniently linked to credit cards with no barriers to ordering, had all manners of items turn up as and when he saw an advert on TV he used to tell Alexa he wanted one as he saw his parents order shopping and bits through Alexa he knew how to do it.Cloud based services are also overused, a product my wife uses at her workplace is cloud based, they got hacked and the servers compromised and thousands of peoples financial information was stolen before they realised and the servers were shut off for 2 weeks whilst they investigated and repaired, the company was an accounting software one so god knows how many people lost access to their fancy cloud platform on that occasion!Personally I steer well clear of any devices that need registering or I don't have the software for secured and downloadable.Even cars have buttons to press instead of a key or things to swipe over, but have a "hidden" key just in case, why not just use a bloody key! The amount of times I get "Key not detected" because I've got it in my pocket instead of smearing it over the dashboard somewhere drives me bonkers!IoT and other buzz words are becoming a toxic presence, everything is sold with an IoT or Cloud badge these days, and people are gullible and fall for the hype until it stops working.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 02:01:37 am
content: Just bought a new washer & dryer to be delivered next week (LG). The washer has a WiFi capability (but I didn't buy it for that ...). I think I can start the washer when I'm out of the house, maybe if I forgot ... have I ever forgot to start my load of clothes?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 02:26:19 am
content: Quotebut can you load it when your out the house

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 02:30:52 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 14, 2022, 02:26:19 amI haven't read the manual yet - I'll get back to you on that.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 03:41:46 am
content: No matter how “smart” these companies like to project that their technology is (and it isn’t), the sheer idiocy of these “developers” is staggering.On my UK Amazon Fire TV, I have “BBC iPlayer” app installed. 90% of the time I click the iPlayer icon on the Home Screen and it launches. Just now, I clicked it and it took me to the Fire TV App Store where it had a “Play Button” icon on the left, indicating that “iPlayer” app is installed - and I then click this “play button” and THAT launches “iPlayer” app.Why?!?!?!?!? You utter morons. Why not fix your piece of garbage bodged together lagDroid derivative OS; Roku seem to be able to make things work consistently and uniformly… so why not these chumps?!Never underestimate the power of threatening your chimpanzee interns with a hard punch in the face and instant dismissal.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 03:48:15 am
content: Quote from: Wilksey on December 14, 2022, 01:41:06 amIt would be amazing if some Russians could hack these shitty cloud services and bring them crashing down without chance of recovery. All the “big names” with their sheer arrogance and disdain, need a cyber kick in the balls.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 04:02:21 am
content: It's just marketing now I assume. Like the washing machine - I couldn't care less about it being WiFi ready. But if they don't put that in, some competitor will add it to their product, and they will say that theirs has more features. So here we go, get ready for toasters, vacuum cleaners, and toilets to all be IoT.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 09:21:51 am
content: Many of these WiFi smart apps are provided by Tuya, a Chinese smart device company that has a frickin' weird business model that seems completely unsustainable.Like literally, they take a single fee for one device when manufactured to access Tuya cloud (less than a dollar from my understanding) and this then grants lifetime access for these functions.It's basically a Ponzi scheme, as long as people keep buying this tat they'll be fine, but if they stop the cloud will lose its funding.Well the question is... how many smart lightbulbs can you buy??Also, it doesn't seem 'great' to be giving remote control of all sorts of devices over to a single company, in a country not known to be in favour of privacy and independence.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 11:49:00 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 14, 2022, 09:21:51 amAnd most people should be aware by now that "lifetime" promises are meaningless.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 01:17:57 pm
content: While I absolutely share the overall sentiment here regarding IoT in toasters and the like I think some of the technology has nice possibilities for cheaply networking your own 'things'.I made a monitoring device (prototype) that uses LoRaWan. You could network this device over a semi-public network like TTN or a proprietary network like (in NL) TTI or KPN . But then you're dependent on their continuous presence and they make you pay for every step. You can also do it yourself. ATM my device talks via my own gateway to my own NS/AS that feeds the information to a (web)app. Most of these components (except the LoRa modems) are open source and are run on my own hardware.Devices are relatively cheap, take very little power, are usable over a solid range and enable one to put networked stuff in places where this was not feasible before.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 03:11:03 pm
content: @woody, that is fine if you control the entire system, my original point was that everything these days seems to be IoT enabled but most do not tell you what it is they are enabling, I see some uses for it, as I say it is probably a god send for some disabled folk gives them a bit more independence, it seems to be anything can receive the IoT badge and some people think it is 10 x better.What's next? An IoT enabled shitter that tells your boss how long you've spent on the toilet that day, he can run monthly reports on your toilet habits.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 03:42:44 pm
content: Yep, IoT is completely usurped by marketing departments. No idea what it is, but we got to have it.And to know how long we're on the bog our bosses probably use the surveillance device we all carry voluntarily

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 07:01:03 pm
content: I'm guessing that this sprinkler timer qualifies as IoT:https://www.orbitonline.com/products/b-hyve-smart-indoor-outdoor-irrigation-controllerIt has all kinds of features that are reachable over my WiFi and there is an app for iPhone and Android. Best case is to use my iPad.So, what's the big deal? The controller deals with things like weather. It calls either the mothership or some weather site and decides whether to postpone sprinkling for projected rain or freezing. This is a really big deal because it is just stupid to waste well water sprinkling in a rain storm. The absolute last thing I would think of during the day is deciding to shut down the sprinklers for the following day or two.Out working on sprinkler repair? Bring the iPad to test zones while doing the work. It beats shouting and I almost never carry my cellphone. Or, maybe I'm working alone and don't look forward to walking 100 yards or more to get to the timer. Even then, I can't really see what is happening.Yes, it really does make my life easier and, in my view, is what IoT should be about. True, articulable, convenience.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 08:51:57 pm
content: Quote from: MikeK on December 14, 2022, 11:49:00 amAccurate - but only useful if the life being timed is specified.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 10:40:45 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 14, 2022, 02:01:37 amA friend of mine has Wi-Fi enabled appliances. For everyday use, it’s silly to use an app to choose a wash cycle, for example. But admittedly, for the really oddball items, the app has a decent wizard that guides you through choosing the right cycle for it, and then just sends it right to the machine.IMHO, the one truly useful feature of the Wi-Fi connectivity is push notifications when the machine is done. My friend has his laundry machines in the basement, and the notifications mean not having to worry about not hearing the beep, or having to go up and down to check.

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 10:55:55 pm
content: "Smart" devices are usually just a euphemism for surveillance devices, turning the user's private life in to a product.Who would have ever thought people would pay to install such things to keep tabs on them.And, ofcourse, for all these "smart" items it ends up being a pretty dumb decision when the company decides to end the products life (or goes bust) and takes down the remote server which it is pointlessly* reliant on.*If it was about being legitimately smart the devices could be designed to work with a user's local systems, but that remte server becoems a necessaity when the manufacturer's intention is to harvest user data for selling to the highest bidder(s).

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 11:02:34 pm
content: I work for a company that makes IoT or Industry 4.0 products.We are making worldwide supply chains more sustainable, and transportation of liquids more safe. It's a measurable effect.Industrial accidents were avoided, because something that wasn't connected to the internet before has been connected, and it sent an alarm. Or did you know, that the French railway companies loose hundreds of wagons, they just don't know where it is. You put a GPS tracker on it, then you don't loose it. A wagon is a thing.Smart toaster ovens with app control is not why IoT is changing everything. And it's not even meant to change everything, just make the existing world a little bit more efficient and livable.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 11:59:30 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on December 14, 2022, 11:02:34 pm“ Smart toaster ovens with app control is not why IoT is changing everything. And it's not even meant to change everything, just make the existing world a little bit more efficient and livable.”What chump would entrust the safety of their home to a connected oven? The firmware crashes, or else someone logs in or hacks it, ramps the element up to 100% and you’ve accidentally left food in there…. Whoops! Hello house fire.Seriously, there’s a deficit of sense these days.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 12:23:49 am
content: Quote from: eti on December 14, 2022, 11:59:30 pmFYI for anyone else seeing that claim: it’s nonsense, in that that is not an actual risk. For one thing, heating appliances have hardware thermal cutouts, often in the form of a resettable thermal breaker at one temperature and a one-time thermal fuse at a higher one.Secondly, the Wi-Fi modules for major appliances are typically, well, modules that extend the microcontroller system - separate so as to make it easy to sell models with and without Wi-Fi. So the core control of the heating is by the microcontroller that is there either way, and the optional Wi-Fi then sets the modes the controller makes available. It doesn’t have the ability to override the core control loops.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 12:33:42 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 15, 2022, 12:23:49 amMachines go wrong. Thermal cutouts DO fail, but sense and instinct rarely lets us down - you’re “trusting” machines that involve heating elements being left unattended? You’re LITERALLY inviting trouble, risk and danger into your home. The entire planet never needed a remote cooker before now; why suddenly are people SO short-sighted and complacent? It’s a sci-fi daydream is why.Wake up. This is SO, SO foolish.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 12:39:40 am
content: When we were children and went on holiday, my Father would walk around the house unplugging EVERY SINGLE mains plug. Now that isUNcommonsense these days, but I still switch off the oven AT THE MAINS SWITCH after using it, and do the same for the toaster and kettle before I sleep - because I was given sense and a brain for a reason - machines DO FAIL.Read:https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/14/20802774/june-smart-oven-remote-preheat-update-user-errorAnd there’ll be more accounts like this I’m sure.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 12:43:01 am
content: QuoteAs does a large percentage of the population, cookers are often left powered up to save having to reset the clock

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 12:44:30 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 15, 2022, 12:43:01 am.Good point. But wilfully turning one on when you’re many miles away is absolutely BRAIN DEAD.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 01:00:31 am
content: Actioning devices from a distance is inherently risky. Only monitoring, a lot less so, although in this case, the concern is mainly privacy.While "IoT" is a bit of a loose term, it defines devices that are connected to the Internet. The ambiguous part is whatever "connected" means here.Connected and accessible are two different things. One device could be able to access Internet ressources (for instance, to get the current or forecasted weather) in pretty much a "read-only" way, without any feature allowing accessing it remotely. That, I find acceptable and useful without too much issues at all. It would just need a connection to your LAN. Access it privately over your LAN only, and let it pull data from some Internet ressources if needed. End of the story.The other, and actually most common definition of IoT is a device that can *push* data to a remote server (not just pull as above), and additionally that can be actioned remotely. In both cases, through a remote server owned by a company and on which you need a user account, with all the privacy and security concerns (and sometimes even safety concerns), and of course usually the subscription that comes with it.The first form would still be very useful and would be perfectly fine for most reasonable uses, but problem is that it wouldn't make any money for companies selling that, except just selling the hardware. Which has almost become a dead marketing end. So companies prefer the latter, with its constant stream of revenue and the ability to make even more by selling your data to third parties.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 01:37:53 am
content: Dangerous “smart ovens”; oops. It seems uncommon sense trumps idealism:https://phys.org/news/2017-10-flaw-hackers-smart-ovens.amphttps://hackaday.com/2017/04/20/half-baked-iot-stove-could-be-used-as-a-remote-controlled-arson-device/“ Rogue 'Smart' Ovens Again Highlight How Dumb Tech Is Often The Smarter Choice”https://www.techdirt.com/2019/08/23/rogue-smart-ovens-again-highlight-how-dumb-tech-is-often-smarter-choice/Truly smart people understand how STUPID it is to blindly rely on “smart” moniker and assume it makes your life easier. Is there a “smart” device that automatically buys you a new house when the oven burns yours down?Doh. Double doh!

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 01:43:10 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 14, 2022, 09:21:51 amWhen I want to introduce more elements of home automation Ispecificallyseek out devices using Tuya.Why?Because they are so easily converted to NOT be cloud and only talk directly to my Raspberry Pi running Home Assistant.Google: Tuya Convert

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 02:15:14 am
content: If I paid any attention to the presumed failures above, I would give up on my Chevy Bolt because not only is it ALL electric, it is also networked to GM's OnStar system whether I subscribe or not. They know all about how hard I stomp on the loud pedal. And they warn me about tire pressure...

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 06:48:06 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 15, 2022, 02:15:14 am`And not only that. Nothing holds the M3 standing in our driveway from receiving a command over the air, waking up and driving off. No plug I can pull to prevent it. Maybe an old-fashioned chain to the tow-hook

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 07:49:18 am
content: Quote from: eti on December 15, 2022, 12:33:42 amYeah, sometimes.Quote from: eti on December 15, 2022, 12:33:42 amThat is laughably incorrect. Common sense and instinct are very, very frequently VERY wrong, and risk assessment is precisely an area where they let us down in grand style.Quote from: eti on December 15, 2022, 12:33:42 amJust like millions of people around the world. If ovens burning down houses were a significant problem, we’d know about it.Quote from: eti on December 15, 2022, 12:33:42 am”Suddenly”? Aka the “appeal to tradition” logical fallacy.Don’t get me wrong; I don’t see any reason why I’d want a Wi-Fi enabled oven. (Unlike the washer and dryer.) But if my landlord were to install an oven with Wi-Fi, I wouldn’t lose one second’s sleep worrying that it was going to cause a fire.Quote from: eti on December 15, 2022, 12:39:40 amThe preference you arrogantly refer to as “common sense” is just that: a preference. Some would say it goes as far as paranoia. Most people, myself included, don’t give it a second’s thought because a century of electrical appliances in widespread use has led to the fundamental bugs being worked out decades ago, and there simply isn’t any evidence of widespread failures.To reiterate: I’m not stating that it’s categorically impossible, just that it’s so unlikely as to not warrant any worry.Quote from: eti on December 15, 2022, 12:39:40 amI’m not surprised that that’s with a device from a startup. The established manufacturers have far more experience designing things.What would be far more interesting/instructive IMHO is whether there are cases of full size ovens (as opposed to a $1400 glorified toaster oven) having similar malfunctions.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 08:00:10 am
content: Quote from: eti on December 15, 2022, 12:33:42 amDon't look at your window. You might realise we let people pilot two-tonne metal boxes after doing a 45 minute exam.I don't see why anything tooki said is wrong. You know what else fails? Normal thermal switches used on regular ovens. In fact my mothers' oven failed in such a way that it left the gas supply on, so we had to isolate the whole house... eek.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 01:23:38 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 15, 2022, 08:00:10 amYep, anything made by mankind can fail. But like tooki expressed the long standing companies have proper track records and produce dominantly safe equipment. This is also due to strict regulations put up by governments, like CE markings and "KEMA keur" (A Dutch quality mark)Having an electric oven without wifi, but with electronic temperature control can also fail, even though it has several safety measures. Same applies for an electric oven that just has a mechanical thermostat. Everything can fail.Trusting on the safety of IoT dumb or not, I don't know. Do we really need it, I don't know. All I know is that I don't need it per se, and for controlling something like a heating system, I just make my own. Had a 6502 based control system for my central heating in the Netherlands, and now I have a Raspberry PI system that controls the heating system in my house. It is connected to my internal network, but there is no access from the outside world. No need for it.The advantage of such a system is that you can control the temperature of each room individually, and save energy by doing so.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 06:50:27 pm
content: IoT features introduce a completelynewclassof failure points.In practice, the new class of failure are all too common. Unless there arereal practical benefitsto adding IoT features, it is best to avoid such failures by avoiding IoT.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 12:50:42 am
content: I've always turned appliances off before going to bed, don't know why really, my father used to do it so I just carried it on.We have a gas cooker, so the only thing the mains power (13A plug) is the clock and igniters, it has several gas shut off systems built in, yet if I go away for more than a day I turn the actual gas valve to the cooker off. The TV, Sky box gets turned off at the wall too, the only things running overnight is the fibre modem, wifi router and my servers, not for any particular reason do I turn everything off, just a habit.I don't have location or gps or wifi / mobile network on my phone unless I need it, then it goes off after I have used it, Bluetooth only goes on if I am connecting to my car's hands free etc.My BMW has a "connected service" that I can turn things on and off from my phone, but I refuse to pay the stupid subscription when I can go to my car and do it for free.I am not against "connected things" I think they have their specific places, for example for my previous company I designed a 4G interface unit that hooked up to the Debug port of the device, for monitoring and remote maintenance, we had the MVNO set up a private APN that we could tunnel into through a VPN on their firewall and we could talk to the devices securely, this saved literally hundreds of hours of engineers visits, sometimes they were across the other side of the country. But a WiFi connected fridge? Come off it.I've also used it on a solar install at the rail side to monitor battery usage and capacity and if the thing is getting enough solar energy to keep the batteries charged and run the system.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 01:59:27 am
content: Quote from: Wilksey on December 16, 2022, 12:50:42 amContinuing a “tradition”? HeheI’d have to ask why you’d continue doing so without questioning “why do I do this?” - this is a good habit, but this “because it’s what my parents always did” behaviour is what sometimes confuses and amuses me about people. The sheer amount of truly idiotic things some people do, just because their folks did it, makes me question whether they’ve ever used any critical thinking 😁But yeah your adopted tradition has no downside, only upside.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 12:53:38 pm
content: Yeah there are some questionable things my parents used to do that I do not follow, but turning things off is one that makes sense in a way.My mum used to think everything that was left on was wasting power and my dad used to think that the fuseboard might catch fire (again), so yes, appliances do fail when they are "idle"...They never had a gas cooker just central heating.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 01:30:00 pm
content: Quote from: woody on December 15, 2022, 06:48:06 amNew lease recall feature, if you don't keep up the monthly paymentsWith the HomeLink function it can even open the garage door......

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 06:28:27 pm
content: Quote from: eti on December 16, 2022, 01:59:27 amDo you not seeanyhypocrisy/contradiction with that and what you wrote earlier?!?Quote from: eti on December 15, 2022, 12:39:40 amYou’re literally doing it because your dad did it.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 06:53:47 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 16, 2022, 06:28:27 pmBut he thought really hard about it first.Quote from: tooki on December 16, 2022, 06:28:27 pmGreat minds think alike they say. I was thinking the exact same this afternoon, but informing eti about it is useless, because it just bounces of of the big shield he has surrounding him.And this will probably contract a reply that we are hypocrites ourselves, and speaking for myself, it is true and I know it. Deep down we all are, the difference lies in knowing it about yourself and trying to do something about it.I took a peak at his posting history and almost right of the bat it is whining about that programmers are not engineers, and other crap. So nothing has changed in three years, despite lots of scuffles with other members.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 10:10:42 pm
content: Quote from: Wilksey on December 16, 2022, 12:53:38 pmI have parents with equally as crazy habits. They drive ya round the twist. When one is of a technical and scientific bent, and they clearly are not, this makes it all the worse, as observing how they don't grasp how objects (stacking of plates, and not stacking mugs of different sizes and shapes FIVE TALL, how certain materials are suitable for s specific task etc) and systems interact, and how to organise things rationally, how to plan ahead (clearing the top of the cooker BEFORE you grab the old, raggedy oven glove and remove EXTREMELY hot casserole dishes, only to suddenly have nowhere to put it as your hand is burning because you didn't plan ahead). .... Yeah, etc.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 11:36:15 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on December 16, 2022, 06:53:47 pmThank you for the validation that it’s not just me!