Share your PCB workflows! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: alexwhittemore
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2011, 04:32:36 am
content: I've done some PCB work before, but never anything too challenging - a basic linear power supply board with LM317s and basic caps/through-hole resistors, so on. All stuff that was easy and in the parts library of ExpressPCB. Mostly, though, I'm used to IC workflow.Now, though, I find myself trying to cad up a design involving a few off-the-beaten-path parts. Some specific ADCs from National and Analog, a filter from Maxim, and so on. Stuff that I can't easily find schematic symbols for. In fact, I can't find the AD7685 symbol in ANY format.So my question is what's YOUR PCB workflow? Specifically, what do you do about schematic symbols and footprints?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2011, 06:16:44 am
content: I've only ever made my own symbols and footprints in Altium but i imagine it's pretty much the same in most pcb design packages.In Altium atleast it's just a matter of creating your own schematic or footprint library file and adding new objects then drawing boxes/outlines and adding pins/pads.If you're using a simulator in the design package then i guess it would be much harder as you have to enter the logic of what the device does.

author: alexwhittemore
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2011, 03:24:46 pm
content: No simulation here: it'd be a bit silly to try to simulate an ADC. Anyway, what I was really trying to get at is is it just a reality that you have to create a new parts library for basically every new project you work on? Have you just sort of amassed a collection over the course of all your projects that you hold on to?

author: TheDirty
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2011, 04:42:22 pm
content: So your specifically asking about scheme/footprints libraries? I'm not certain what IC workflow means.You haven't told us what design software you are actually using. I've built up a fairly decent personal set of symbols/footprints over the years, but nothing too extensive. Many times there's just nothing you can do if you have something like an SD/MicroSD card connector, odd antenna, strange sensor package, or other items that are not that popular or come in too many different versions. Often you can substitute other symbols that are relatively the same.For Eagle there is plenty of people putting out libraries with a lot of custom parts in it. Sparkfun, Adafruit, microbuilder.eu all have nice parts libraries available.Once you get good at it, it takes little time to make up your own symbols/footprints. I have to say, I've gotten fairly lazy and my symbols are not all that neat any more. I'm not going to put time into it if I'm the only one that uses it and I'll only likely use it a couple times anyway. Al7ium has that nice wizard dealie that steps you through making a library part.

author: alexwhittemore
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2011, 04:50:24 pm
content: I haven't said what tool because I'm open to try anything at this point. I've used Multisim/utiliboard before, albeit never made symbols in it. I have no experience with Eagle, but I'm trying that now, and yesterday I spent a fair chunk of time learning gschem and PCB, which left a pretty bad taste in my mouth (I think I'm using very old versions, but of course it's almost more of a pain to track down dependancies, figure out which source is the newest stable one, and build it). When I say IC workflow, I mean I'm used to working on IC design rather than PCB. I have experience in Cadence Virtuoso and Magma Titan, for example.

author: TheDirty
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2011, 05:30:12 pm
content: I've installed Kicad, but the main reason I'm not using it and haven't put in the time is simply because of the parts libraries. The idea of making up or remaking parts I've already done in Eagle is making it tough to get up the initiative to make the jump. As far as I can see, the parts library and availability of parts is pretty sparse.

author: ToBeFrank
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2011, 06:00:56 pm
content: Quote from: alexwhittemore on March 14, 2011, 04:50:24 pmI tried to learn Eagle. It's just too unintuitive for me. I've since been using gschem and PCB. While it can still be a bit unintuitive in some areas, I find it fairly easy to create symbols and footprints. I use a tool called tragesym to create symbols. It makes it very simple. I use another tool called footgen to generate almost all of my footprints. It works great. The only footprint I've had to make by hand is a microsd connector. I now have a small library of standard footprints that I've generated and verified to work great. I don't use any of the library footprints that come with the geda suite.

author: djsb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2011, 10:25:30 pm
content: Quote from: TheDirty on March 14, 2011, 05:30:12 pmYou can find loads of eagle libraries converted for Kicad use herehttp://library.oshec.org/HTHDavid.

author: TheDirty
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2011, 01:21:26 am
content: Quote from: djsb on March 17, 2011, 10:25:30 pmThanks! That helps.

author: neoone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2011, 01:39:14 am
content: There are some methods to convert eagle libraries to Altium and also KiCAD is much more ergonomic in my opinion than Eagle and pretty similar to A!ltium in many aspects. Also it is possible to move Altium PCB document to KiCAD. Any way, for personal or education use I recommend Altium. It looks scary and complicated at the beginning but it really offers much better performance than Eagle but of course if you want to use it professionally it comes with much higher price (about 900 euro for basic Eagle and 4000 for Altium).

author: TheDirty
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2011, 02:35:22 am
content: Quote from: neoone on March 20, 2011, 01:39:14 amOther than stealing it, how would one use it just for personal use? I know there's an education pricing, but I've never heard of anything like a non-commercial personal license.

author: neoone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2011, 10:59:27 pm
content: like you said for example with education license. And you can get a 60 day trial (not sure if it was 60 but I got one) for example on a roadshow. It is fully functional and during the installation there is an information from A!tium that they "hope" you won't use it farther so based on that I think they wouldn't mind very much if you only use it some more for educational needs (for example comparation to other software while considering purchasing a license)

author: TheDirty
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2011, 12:43:38 am
content: So, your answer is no.Educational is a yearly license and it's really for educational use. I'm not certain how long they would let you keep renewing it, but it's not forever.

author: neoone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2011, 11:14:12 am
content: the answer is not "no" be cause it is possible to use it for free or for reasonably small price but only for a limited period of time. As for trial You could probably get another one in the next year. Education license is as you said for 1 year and probably you can use it as long as you have anything to do with University like regular studies, PhD or work there. But in that case probably you have access to it any way on Uni. I don't think so that someone needs very sophisticated piece of software like A!tium Designer only for hobby project since they won't be so advanced as commercial ones. But it is still good idea to know A!tium as this knowledge might come handy in a future job for example. Eagle is not free either for a version that can actually do anything but still it is much cheaper. Personally I would choose KiCAD which is free and a bit is similar to both Eagle (in terms of GUI and tools) and A!tium (it has something like "on line" DRC so one can't put a track wherever he wants like in Eagle - very helpful for maintaining correct space between tracks and other elements).Let's not argue farther on semantic whether what I described is personal use or not. Mostly I meant education license.And just for information one thing I now remembered from around 1998 or so - Internet connection back then were still slow and mostly modem based so there was a possibility to get a trial version of Protel 98 or 99 (or something close don't remember exact version) on a CD and there was an article about that in one of polish magazines Elektronika dla Wszystkich (Electronics for Everyone/All). I think that license was for 30 day use and after that it stops working. So in the article there was a small hint/suggestion about getting a small HDD like 1GB with OS installed (remember that it was a time of Windows 98 which needed only around 300 MB or even less) and format it once a month. Well, at that time there was still a big gap between Poland (and other center and eastern Europe countries) in terms of what was affordable or even possible to get for a hobbyist or even processional compared to the West.

author: TheDirty
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2011, 12:39:59 pm
content: Quote from: neoone on March 20, 2011, 01:39:14 amQuote from: neoone on March 22, 2011, 11:14:12 amYour two answers contradict each other.Personal use is not the same as educational use. Your answer to the question "Other than stealing it, how would one use it just for personal use?" is 'Yes, for 60 days trial from a roadshow CD'. That's not an answer, that's just being silly.There is no possible way to use it for personal non-commercial use without paying the full commercial license other than using a cracked version. Not that I'm saying a cracked version is that hard to come by, but if you want to stay above board, Al7ium is not an option in any way for personal use, unless you have a lot of money.

author: neoone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2011, 12:59:39 pm
content: ok fine, I generalized personal and educational as being one and the same as for example for students it is.And as probably many before me has thought about - it would be a great thing if Altium had more license types so one could buy for example only Protel and Schematics without other stuff like FPGA. I think they are afraid of loosing some income because let's say 50% of their clients would buy cheaper version without FPGA part. But in my personal opinion they should expect increased incomes be cause many smaller companies and even "hobbyists" would buy that piece of great software for smaller price.

author: TheDirty
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2011, 01:09:26 am
content: It looked like you were saying that all hobbyists should be using Al7ium, when it's just not that available to none students.I've done a little bit of work in it and it's definitely nice. Would love to be able to have a cheap non-commercial version of it to play with and I'm not all that interested in a cracked version. I'm sure the marketing type believe a non-commercial version other than educational would devalue the brand name.