Are High end SBC toast or is 12thGen / AMD X64 going to kill them off? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2023, 10:10:55 am
content: Serious question you can now (apart from dedicated GPIO) buy PC's for similar or less $ than PI4 (with a few options and storage/case etc) so does the higher end PI SBC et al still have a place?I have been looking for a solution for a light industrial application that I want to link to my NAS, the Internerd and currently an Arduino based shield for the GPIO (firmware exists for the project already). Size and physical board size is a consideration as is power consumption.Currently in the mix is one of the new N100 (6W TDP, 100x100 board) based micro PC's or a well specced PI4 or clone (80x50'ish).Thoughts?

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2023, 11:40:53 pm
content: We won't mention more power and speed for the $ either thenSize isn't a total killer for this project as it is going into a 120kg bit of gear about 1x1x.5 m and will sit on a mobile cart nearly the same size again, but even an M-ITX is getting to large and more expensive than it needs to be.I should also mention the GUI for this is available on Windoze, Mac and several versions of Linux so it's not an OS thing, likely regardless of the hardware I choose in the end I think I will give Linux a go (now as a heretic and critic of the Distro mess I expect to burst into spontaneous flames)

author: bw2341
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 02:15:25 am
content: Do you have a specific model in mind?I haven't bought a mini PC myself, but a youtuber I follow seems to be enthusiastic about them. Check out the ServeTheHome youtube channel and website.My impression is that they come from variety of small Chinese brands and are inexpensive compared to name brand desktops.They should work as advertised, but I am worried about long term support. Will you be able to get timely system firmware and microcode updates? If proper Windows licensing is important, you may have to price in a new copy of Windows. For instance, in a review of a particular mini PC, Patrick from STH found that a clean reinstall of Windows left the system unactivated. The seller sent him new keys that worked, but this means that this particular mini PC was not BIOS activated like all complete PCs from the big brands.If your needs are very generic, it might make sense to use one of these mini PCs if you are prepared to quickly swap it out with a completely different one if you have a problem.If you need support, a more expensive small form factor or ultra small form factor PC from a big brand would make more sense.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 02:16:04 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on June 18, 2023, 10:10:55 amI don't use Pi's, and consider higher-end to be boards likeOdroid M1,Odroid N2+, RadxaRock 5b, and such.To me, there are two key points:Vanilla kernel support. I don't want to be stuck with vendor kernels, I want to be able to use my board even after the vendor switches to newer models, so I want all support to be pushed/pushable to vanilla upstream kernels. Vendor kernels are useful, if and only if the source is close enough to vanilla to be ported upstream. Custom flattened/modified kernel trees are useless to me.Connectivity. Not just GPIO, but also stuff like CSI for direct camera connections.None of my SBCs are used as a laptop/desktop replacements. I see the PC's you referred to as mini-desktops used for web browsing, social media, maybe to run dedicated applications and appliances, with the PC mounted to the back of the display as usual; and not as replacing any of my own SBC use cases. Perhaps NAS boxes and IOT gateway/firewall servers, if the power consumption is low enough?Using microcontrollers (especially via high-speed USB like Teensy 4.0) to interface to outside does blur the lines a bit, but CSI and similar high-speed parallel buses are still relatively rare in cheap microcontrollers, and tend to only be available on SBCs.Quote from: beanflying on June 18, 2023, 11:40:53 pmI like that GUI approach myself.As to heretic, BAH! There is nothing worse than axiomatic/dogmatic opinions. You have constructed your opinion based on observable details, so hereticism definitely does not apply, whether or not one agrees with your conclusions or the importance of those details. As to being critical about Linux, so am I; it is only a tool, after all.What annoys me, is how people take Windows and x86-based systems as the prototype and pinnacle of computers, and assume stuff they observe under Windows is directly applicable to all other systems. The recent discussion on using USB3-connected ADC and process it on the host computer is a particularly annoying example. Just because you need a high-end Intel Core i7/i9 processor to do something in Windows, does not mean a cheap SBC cannot do the same processing task at a fraction of the cost and power consumption; it only depends on the exact details of the processing task, and whether the SBC has buses and facilities suitable for such processing.Such misconceptions lead to using the wrong tool for the job, wasting resources for no sensible reason.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 02:41:12 am
content: You can get pretty decent slim clients for cheap on eBay, look for S720, S920, T630...I bought a T630 for $60, 2GHz Quad core, 8GB RAM DDR4+128GB SSD, USB 3.0, Gbit...https://www.ebay.com/itm/195699749645

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 03:02:21 am
content: That is sort of where I think I am heading although I am more likely to stump up the extra $ for a current gen N95 or N100 based system as you get a power and size saving over an older Generation Elitedesk/Optiplex etc thin client. Locally finding anything under $100USD equivalent (with a 'reasonable' spec) is fairly rare too.I suspect that the GUI and NAS access requirements would see me needing a minimum 4Gb/64Gb on Linux and some more if I stay with Windoze.Just ran across this and quirky as always and generally on point

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 10:21:43 am
content: While this is getting up in price a bit at $180'ish USD delivered with 8Gb of Ram and a 256Gb NVMe it ticks all the boxes for a light industrial PC and then some. The Home user versions come with a lot less inputs and outputs and generally a plastic case andfansfor $30-50 less.The N95 is cheaper and has more 3D poke but also needs more power.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 10:37:46 am
content: Did you notice the J6413 sticker? It's an 11th generation Elkhart Lake processor one can easily mistake for 13th generation Alder Lake processor;they're very similar.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 10:42:53 am
content: Same listing and three options of CPUAliXThe same unit is also seemingly sold by a few others but I think having a poke around MiniTree is closer to being the manufacturer than the others.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 12:13:45 pm
content: Yep; I just wanted to make sure you knew about the potential risk of bait-and-switch, triggered by the suspicious sticker. The screenshot you posted first did not include any mention of the 11th gen processor, only about N95 and N100 processors.(Those who do such scams tend to leave telltale signs, because they want to target gullible people who don't see the signs, and not have to fight those who are sharp enough to check the hardware they get. Just the same as with email scams: they are often deliberately bad, in order to catch only the gullible ones, and be ignored as obvious scams by anyone who might detect the ongoing scam before the money hits the scammers accounts. Phishing is different though, often trying to seem as authentic as possible, to collect peoples banking passwords and such.)

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 12:08:43 am
content: No doubt the N100 performs great for 6W TDP (Like a i5-2600K) but it's too expensive for a small computer, $150 + RAM + storage, here it goes $200+.The AMD GX420GI in the T630 performs like 1/3rd of the N100, but you still get a nice value for the money, similar to a i3-2350m.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 12:32:18 am
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on June 20, 2023, 12:08:43 amCurrently the cheapest N100 versions I have found without getting to the suspect end of AliX are actually onAmazon.comMorefine or Beelink are two of them and there AliX shops work out a bit more expensive than this. So around $160USD delivered to me with coupons etc. I am considering upgrading my current datalogging Aldi Atom fanless trashpile (2Gb Ram 32bit) to one of these as it will save some power for long term use and I need to upgrade to more memory and 64bit.If you aren't so worried about power then some bargains for even last gen versions are getting around.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 01:25:48 am
content: As Nominal pointed out, you may not need all the processing power these mini PCs provide. Regarding processing power - and even the internal graphics performance - they'll put a RPi4 to shame. No question.And they run Windows. They can also (usually) run Linux, although they are clearly not designed for this particular use case, so YMMV.If you don't need Windows and a RPi4 (or similar) does the job for your application, why bother with something more powerful? That's the question. Knowing that below the $200 mark, you'll usually get crap hardware. About $300 is the mark to get something reasonable in terms of mini-PC. So even with the currently inflated prices of the SBCs, that's still way beyond.Actually, these mini-PCs can be great as an alternative to laptops when you have to move places and there's already a monitor where you go, as (I think that was) Bruce pointed out in another thread a while ago.The plus compared to many recent laptops is that they are at least somewhat upgradable - RAM and SSDs can usually be changed/added.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 01:55:05 am
content: Just for fair comparison andApplesX86's to Pi's the Pi4 with a heatsink/fan and a case with some storage runs out at over $150 that is IF you can get one.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 08:12:42 pm
content: The T630 arrived, while not a Ryzen 9 it still performs nicely, installed Linux Mint, configured SSH for headless access, installed samba and a USB 3.0 drive.On heavy load power consumption is ~24W, while on idling and light jobs it takes 5-12W, not too bad!Furthermore I enabled suspension, the power is unmeasurable by my smart plug, must be 0.5W or so.Kodi can send Wake-on-Lan automatically before accessing network devices, and it works great.On Windows, I'll find a neat way, not important as I won't transfer a lot of files, it's mostly for the TV.Still It takes a lot of time to setup a Linux system, that will be all for now, perhabs in the future I'll add more services to it.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 02:56:02 am
content: Much as I might have bagged SBC's a little hereOnly just out or getting released tomorrow on Amazon. Way more Single Board PC than SBC/Pi but fairly serious little package with EMMC Memory and NVME and a slot for WiFi if needed. Seems a little cheaper at least at this stage on AliX.There is a couple of early release reviews on YouTube but nothing serious about the actual IO or performance testing.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 03:47:02 am
content: The day I will see a SBC on a production line I will maybe consider it...

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 08:12:24 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on June 25, 2023, 02:56:02 amI am working with that kind of Orange-pi stuff at the moment.Hacking u-boot and part of the kernel, like I did for the Neo-pi.if they put it in the package, the SoC needs a more serious heatsink than the supplied one.I also hacked the PLL to keep the SyS clock lower in order to heat up as little as possible.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 08:46:52 am
content: Orange themselves are not showing a case or heatsink 'yet' but I guess they will in time. Some of their last gen options look ok. ** Also found out that not all WiFi cards suit this new one either, no idea if that is firmware/os or hardwareOEM Laser Cut case and I ran across below.I also just might have pushed the button on one of those N100 Passive cooled systems above too$0.02 Teardown when it gets here.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 09:12:32 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on June 25, 2023, 02:56:02 amYup, Orange Pi 5 belongs to the class of higher-end SBCs I referred to earlier. In particular, Radxa Rock5b uses the same SoC, Rockchip RK3588S.It does bug me a bit when people think of Raspberry Pis (EDIT: for example, Raspberry Pi 4) as "typical" or "higher end" SBCs. They're not, and they do have significant design flaws (bus organization) and even hardware flaws (USB bus dropping packets after acknowledging them, with only a heuristic software workaround).To me, Pis are "Chinesium"-level SBCs, whose only saving grace is a vibrant (but walled-garden type) community.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 09:18:49 am
content: I referred to 'higher end' in my opening post for just that reason, PI Zero's and other similar ones are a different thing entirely. The line between these higher end ones running a full Linux install and even Windoze or a lower end X86 doing the same with or without separate I/O is a very fuzzy thing.Throw RISC5 into the mix when it matures a bit more and it will get really blurry.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 09:31:55 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on June 25, 2023, 09:18:49 amNo, I was not referring to Pi Zero, but to latest full Raspberry Pi. Will edit the post for clarity!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 08:35:56 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 25, 2023, 09:12:32 amYep. In terms of design and specs, they are meh. Most of the competition, even in the same price range (or sometimes cheaper), has eMMC support for instance. And yes, better USB and Etherrnet performance.Sticking to Broadcom is probably not the best idea either. I guess they must have a reason for that though.But RPi did make the concept of "SBCs for the masses" popular. Others followed. Before the RPi, SBCs were mainly very expensive industrial boards.These days, it's definitely worth considering alternatives. Especially at the current prices.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 08:11:30 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on June 25, 2023, 08:46:52 ambought qty=5 Banana Pi BPI R64, ~120 euro eachI dealt directly with one of the resellers; these cards cost a lot, on an order of 600 euros, I managed to get 5 heatsinks, PSUs, miniPCI wifi modules with their antenna stick, and a serial RS232 lvTTL adapter, all included.Not serious but it's a decent enough heatsink, however, as a first step, I lowered the sys clock to 800Mhz.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 08:20:43 am
content: Under $15USD delivered. Not a total solution but another very early option for it I guess.EDITDid some more looking into the above cooler and there is issues with heat coupling from the CPU to the Memory IC's so stick with individual heatsinks!When they get some eMMC memory back into their stores (got a message stating a few days and $4USD for 64Gb price extra on their website) I might grab a 4Gb model to play with on the bench as it is closer to the sort of spec and expansion options I would want for a decent price.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 09:04:04 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on June 26, 2023, 08:20:43 ameven if produced in large quantities, for a similar price, I don't see enough money to properly develop the product, so I expect it to be chock full of badly engineered stuff.for example the absent filtering part in the power section, with various glitches that occasionally crash the kernel, poor quality PCB (both seen in recent products which I discarded), engineered firmware, DTB, and kernel in snack breaks, and stuff like thatmy opinion? well, I wouldn't recommend this "buy the cheapest stuff" attitude

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 04:08:26 am
content: So the new Passively cooled N100 system arrived today. Really well packed in foam and an inner and outer cardboard box so nice workThere was no instructions but obviously real Men don't need those so there was a saving on dead trees.Arrived with a bootlegged copy of Windoze10 Pro locked from getting updates but at this stage it is getting Linux Mint installed so it doesn't matter to much but nice it came 'setup' I guess. 16Gb 256Gb SSD which is plenty for this system but it will take an NVME and has a SATA port if you want more storage. Box is 130x130x40.I can run some more tests on it but this is all I have planned for it at this stage. Maximum power during Geekbench on the CPU was 5WVery close to a 2400G desktop and it totally slayed my old I3 box it is partially replacing.Managed to get it to a bit over 80C after 10 minutes at 100% CPU load which is unrealistic use but it makes me feel happy it will be ok in an Aussie summer next to a3.5kW heat sourceAnd as a rank 'Newb' and Linux Distro HaterI managed to install Linux Mint (mainly because I am a newb) some software and including the package I actually need for the job. Does all the PC stuff you would expect, talks to the Internet, NAS and other associated networked gear and just a minor sound/driver thing to sort out.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2023, 01:31:02 pm
content: So the little Orange Pi 5+ arrived a couple of days ago. Made up a heatsink from my junk box. The plan is if I can to run it passively so it is about 50x50x16.This one is specced with 8Gb of Ram, 64Gb eMMC module and strapped under the board is a Samsung 970 250Gb NVMe. RK3588 SOC.Installed Josh's Ubuntu image on an SD cardhttps://github.com/Joshua-Riek/ubuntu-rockchipclicked the boxes and as boring as could be it just worked.I haven't done any serious stress/performance testing yet but Networking, Screen and Touch, Logitec K400 all just worked so given it is a new released product I am calling this a win for now.Tour De France needs my eyeballs so some punishment tomorrow.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 08:15:33 am
content: Stressed it's little Brain for 40 minutes sitting on the bench. Seems to top out at around 70C after being left to cook at 100% usage but more like 60'ish for 5 minute bursts. So I am happy I have plenty of Heatsink to keep it in check without a fan even in an Aussie Summer. Stress test used is herehttps://github.com/amanusk/s-tuiAlso downloaded Geekbench for ARM. Not sure how accurate it is but interesting anyway to compare it against the N100 just above. Aarch64 review version usedhttps://www.geekbench.com/preview/5 minutes @ 100%40 minutes @ 100%

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 08:35:26 am
content: Just doing for an idea on $/performance and comparingApplesIntel to Oranges for nominal value.N100, complete 8Gb Ram, 256Gb SSD, WiFi, power supply, case ready to install an OS $205 USDOrange Pi 5+, 8Gb Ram, 64Gb eMMC, Power Supply. $135Heatsink and Case (commercial) $15-20WiFi module $10-15Extra Storage 250Gb NVMe $35Total $160-205Is there a 'value' saving in $/byte NOPE. Can you save a few $ if you DIY and cut back the storage or use some NAS or SD card space then sort of it helps.Physically there is a little size to be saved but if you put it in a similar case like the N100 above maybe 20% tops.The Pi is still much more of a project and lacks some polish when it comes to support but both are capable machines.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 02:09:01 pm
content: Could you measure the average total power consumption, perhaps using a mains power meter? When idle, and when stressed?Electricity isn'tthatexpensive yet, but would be an interesting data point between the N100 and the Orange Pi 5.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 10:55:29 pm
content: Sure Idle and Peak are easy. Average unless I plug them in as my daily driver is possible but it won't be reliable. I will have a look around for a mixed workload automated load for Linux unless someone knows of one?I think either as a Bench/Browsing/Email box would be a good use. I am going to try and Install the Keysight Connection rubbish on the N100 and see how it goes then as a long term logging option due to the low power. The ARM issues and software are going to limit some of the use cases for the Orange at least for the next year or so until they get to be more common.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 11:40:57 pm
content: Orange Pi 5+ Just over 4W idle and peak all cores loaded 11.3W. So add a WiFi card to that and call it maybe 12W I guess.N100 - 11W at idle (does have a few more background app running) and peaking at 22W all cores loaded.Not that critical as the N100 could be changed in BIOS but in it's nominal off state it still pulls about 0.6W at the wall while the Pi wasn't detectable on my cheapy plug in meter.Average Power nothing found to simulate it yet.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2023, 09:16:44 am
content: My T630 does 24W@load, 5W@idle, while I'm pretty sure it outperform those Pis by a lot.Anyways, I will never try OrangePi, ever. Lame support at best.I remember the first OrangePi, it never worked properly, randomly locking up and having driver issues.The OPi IOT board arrived, guess what, it's impossible to get it flashed, even the manual is wrong, made like a Word file in a hurry, copy/paste several pictures and run away, if that's the way you make a 10-page manual, I can imagine how the rest goes.Even with the correct instructions it's still failing

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2023, 09:37:28 am
content: No idea on their older products but given the Orange 5+ is a new release and has Published Schematics and a 500+ page manual along with multiple options for OS's that work within the first few weeks. Times and companies change.There is a however wasteland of underperforming and now largely unsupported SBC's and Microcontroller boards out there across a range of manufacturers and even worse copies of the same design. Any board 3-5 years old just isn't going to see meaningful development or improvement IMO no matter who you are. Even 'Older' Rasberry's unless you use Legacy OS's SUCK.This is partly why I opened the thread PC based solutions still seem to be a better option for similar or less $ and better long term support. Adding some IO ports into one is cheap and not really a selling feature of an SBC while their generally smaller size is.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2023, 03:20:34 am
content: Just installed an OS on an Elitedesk705 I got to make use of my old 2400G APU I had in mothballs for my Plasma Table build. 8Gb of 2933MHz memory and I have left the 2400G capped at 35W instead of the full 65W TDP as the application isn't demanding and the little chassis would sound like a turbine trying to cool it.Amazingly the 5W N100 above holds its own against this 'energy hog'It won't matter here as it will only get sporadic use but still makes the N100 an impressive leap forward.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 07:49:50 am
content: A Laser cutter and some CAD time got me two 4A 9-36V input PSU's and cases for the Orange Zero3 and Pi5+. Cost it out at $x/hr and I should have brought commercial onesThe PSU brick with the voltmeter is more for external battery use and keeping an eye in the input, dual USB outs for a screen and ?. The other was because I had the DCDC converter and on the bench I have it wired with a stack of 12V outlets already so it makes it just a handy 5V 4A supply for whatever I need.The crossflow P5+ case really doesn't need the fans as the heatsink is fine passively even loaded to 100% but over Summer they might kick in.After doing a chunk of my daily driving on the bench with the OPi5+ for YouTube and browsing then sure you could but it is still lacking the universal PNP of mainline Linux distro support 'for now' because of the ARM processor but I suspect that will change if Microsoft's rumored move into ARM hardware is correct it should help drive the Linux side a bit harder too.

author: Fflint
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 01:51:44 pm
content: >Are High end SBC toast or is 12thGen / AMD X64 going to kill them off?I hope not, but I'm afraid they are. I've been a huge fan of Raspberry Pi (especially Zero 2W) until the whole shortage and how they kept claiming for ages the solution is "around the corner/next week".I've been looking and looking, but I haven't found anything so small, light, powerfull and feature rich at the same time as zero 2w. One of my hobbies is drones, many uses are straight away out of the question due to horrible camera latency (80ms at the very best - so forget about object avoidance in a dynamic low altitude flight), but a lot of stuff was possible. This was ~4 years ago and I bought 4 raspberry pi zero 2w for somewhere in the region of $15 each. Now 4 years later there is nothing like it. The original rpi zero 2w sometimes show up for $60 around here, and there is no alternative making me enjoy this hobby a lot less due to being afraid of breaking "my last rpi zero 2w".No doubt someone will say, but why you'll not just use board X. Well the answer is: size/weight, an easy way to connect a number of cameras, ability to just plug a Monitor and keyboard for debugging, onboard wifi and very good documentation.Believe me I tried. I spent a substantial amount of time with Pine64 soquartz board even porting and adding new video modes to a camera driver in hope of using it. In the end, yes I did manage to lower the latency to half that of rpi zero 2w (~45ms), but at a cost of 3x the size and weight and it was still way to much.I really wish, something, anything shows up to replace zero 2w.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 08:23:27 pm
content: Quote from: Fflint on October 07, 2023, 01:51:44 pmFor the RPi Zero 2W class hardware, you might wish to take a look atOx64(Wiki); but as you are familiar with Pine64 already, you should be aware of it already.What it lacks, is an active development community around it: it cannot be considered a "ready" board yet.Pity Pine64 does not have a foundation with deep pockets filled by a dedicated SoC manufacturer backing them.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 12:39:15 am
content: On the $ front I spotted a complete N100 16Gb 'system' that would have been cheaper than a OPi5+ as a similar level of finish. ARM has some work to do to stay relevant on price at a minimum.Orange is apparently working on an N100 board which would be interesting in particular if it supports mainline kernel and or WindozeNo details on soldered or dimm RAM 'yet'. Take everything here with a huge grain of salthttps://www.androidpimp.com/product-news/orange-pi-x/

author: Fflint
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 04:09:16 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on October 07, 2023, 08:23:27 pmI am, but one can't compare ox64 with rpi zero 2w. They are not even in the same ballpark of capability (not even because of software support, but raw power and capability). Ox64 is more comparable with things like esp32 - maybe we can stretch it to the original rpi zero) , but not 2w. Rpi zero 2w is essentially rpi3b but in a smaller package.If there was another sbc that could take 1080p video from a csi camera at 60fps, then send it via raw wifi(using a usb dongle) with enough cpu power to spare to run for example ardupilot, ssh server and an occasional script in such a tiny and cheap package I'd would definitely have bought few. Unfortunately, I've been waiting for someone, anyone to come up with something comparable to rpi zero 2w and there is nothing...Also, my hopes for pine64 are not that great, they have been struggling to resolve shipping issues to Central Europe for last year and a half. I used to be a big fan of what they did until that whole shipping fiasco and the realisation I as a developer don't want to invest months of my time developing for a device I can get cut off from a supply of by "shipping and tax issues" that take over a year to resolve. No, pine64 is crossed off my list at least until they get their shipping act together.I'd rather get my riscv V stuff from sipeed etc.Quote from: beanflying on October 08, 2023, 12:39:15 amI'm looking forward to checking out more about n100, especially about the hardware video encoding throughout, how well documented the built in gpu/AI accelerator is etc.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 08:08:05 pm
content: Quote from: Fflint on October 12, 2023, 04:09:16 pmWell, the Pi Foundation is essentially the marketing/PR arm of Broadcom (with a little bit of help from University of Cambridge Computer Laboratory), and since it is registered as a non-profit foundation, it can afford to do stuff commercial companies cannot. It is actually a pretty nifty setup; pity the Broadcom hardware is actually rather crappy.(Consider, for example, the USB hardware issues Broadcom has been unable to solve, and rely on software workarounds.Maybe Broadcomneedsthis leg-up to really compete with better hardware, eh?)That said, something like RockchipRK3328 SoCon a small stick would be eminently suitable; it and its successors are ubiquitous in Linux/Android media boxes, and does support 1080P encoding in hardware (VC-1, MPEG4, VP8, H.264, H.265) taxing the CPU very little. Olimex even hasSystem-on-Moduleboards for experimental development.Quote from: Fflint on October 12, 2023, 04:09:16 pmI fully understand. I bought some –– 16 Mb variant for use as a microcontroller, not to run Linux on –– in February of 2023, and had no issues myself with shipping to Finland, even though we're in a very similar boat (horrible mess with customs and local post office extra fee if you buy stuff off e.g. Chinese sellers not EU-registered). I even have the shipping pouch, but seem to have "filed" the boards themseves too well for me to find..Edited to clarify, now that I recall the details:Here in Finland, one has to pay VAT 24% (for electronics), plus a 3.10€ local-post handling fee, for this kind of electronics orders outside EU, unless the seller is EU-registered and/or handles the customs import (DDP, like Mouser and JLCPCB, for example).The saving grace is that when the seller like Pine64 uses a valid international tracking number and includes the recipient e-mail in the shipping notification they do, the Finnish Post automatically sends you an email with details toOmaPosti(domain is oma.posti.fi, making it easy for even elder folks to avoid phishing) where one can do both the customs import clearance and pay the handling fee, and usually get a couple of euros discount too, immediately when the package is registered in the postal system, well before it even arrives in Finland. So, while I did have to do the clearance myself, filling it, and then paying the fees using Finnish online banking system, and it did took a couple of minutes of my time, it really was utterly painless and very straightforward. (I've described the experiencein this postin the what did you buy today -thread.)I seriously suspect some Finnish Post and Customs web ninjas designed the system back when the extra fees were introduced and VAT minimum was removed, and did some social engineering to let their higher-ups think they came up with it instead and let put it online. It feels so straightforward user-oriented approach, that I do not believe for a second any Finnish bureaucracy could come up with it top-down; it had to be designed for the users bottom-up. (If anyone was a part of that effort, PM me, and I'll buy you a coffee, and we can chat about old Finnish IT battle stories.)Whatever Pine64 does wrt. shipping definitely works for shipping here to Finland, but again, that's because someone in Finnish Posti and Finnish Customs managed to make a nice private customer web+email interface/portal for it. Without it, it'd be utter pain with random long delays and issues.With it, it isn't as effortless as how e.g. Mouser, JLCPCB, Banggood do VAT+duty paid shipping, but it is simple and straightforward.

author: Fflint
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2023, 09:17:09 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on October 12, 2023, 08:08:05 pmI wouldn't even mind if they were, but they continued with the original mission "cheap high performance boards with easy to interface gpio + powerfull Io options in very small/light package", but it seems instead of doing what a non profit is supposed to do (focus on the mission) they found that profit is in compute modules for industrial use and high end boards and they went for it.Quote from: Nominal Animal on October 12, 2023, 08:08:05 pmI've spent considerable amount of time with Pine64 soquartz (it uses rk3566). It is more powerful than rk3328. It does what I want. But with a smallest carrier board it is significantly bigger than rpi zero 2w. Still, it is the best alternative if I can get it (albeit 4x the weight and size of rpi zero 2w).Quote from: Nominal Animal on October 12, 2023, 08:08:05 pmQuote from: Nominal Animal on October 12, 2023, 08:08:05 pmWow, and I though we had the worst VAT in the EU here in Poland at 23% and the extra fee for shipments that don't use the IOSS is €2.Quote from: Nominal Animal on October 12, 2023, 08:08:05 pmHere it is pretty straightforward. If the shipment has an invoice specifying the value attached they calculate the VAT for you automatically and you pay it to your postman on delivery with the €2 fee.But if there is no invoice attached this becomes more difficult, there are two options. You can either email the customs the invoice when you see on tracking they have the package and they'll release it in a day or two. Or you can do nothing in which case they'll email you (if there is an email on the he shipping) or they'll send you a letter asking for the proof of value in which case it might take 2 weeks before they get to sending that letter.In general I too was pretty pissed off with that €2 handling fee when they introduced it, but on the other hand registering for IOSS for a business from anywhere in the world is not that difficult and handling the payments is not difficult either.Any legitimate business that sells to EU should just do it and make the whole experience as easy as buying locally (vat is charged during the sale, the shipment bypasses customs entirely). In some countries for example Japan and China there are shipping companies you (as a small seller) can use if you don't want to register for IOSS yourself.Not having IOSS was OK a year ago, but not having it still is just bad, but it's not even that that annoyed me the most with Pine64 shipping. The most annoying is that for a very long time they used to have this shipping method called "EU standard shipping" for ~$10, but it only worked for some EU countries! Some countries had no shipping option (Czech), some like Poland had only an expensive $30 shipping as the only option.However, after checking just now I see they seem to have a "standard shipping" for $11 to Poland too.So perhaps they did finally get their act together and I should give them another chance? I might, I'll think about it.Also, when I asked various people why this is the case they replied that for example there was no shipping to Czech because some people didn't pay the customs fees and later issued a charge back... That sucks, but again IOSS is the solution to it.I don't know. I really would like something like pine64 to work out, but I'm just not sure the same situation isn't going to repeat again. I'll spend a year getting comfortable with the software and suddenly one will not be able to get the hardware again.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 04:59:08 am
content: Quote from: Fflint on October 14, 2023, 09:17:09 amOne can obviously find RK3566 in SoM form factor (Pico3566_SOMfor example), showing it is possible and cost effective to do (just not at the $15 price point!), but card edge connectors piss me off.I like to play with routers and SBCs, and one of my favourite use case is to add a nice 2.5"-3" display for status information for non-technical folks; I love the BuyDisplay IPS TFT panels (link) with built-in controllers (liki ILI9341, ST7789, etc.) for this (but shipping can still be an issue). There's even a thread here about how I like to control the backlight LEDs (current-controlled using BJTs, intensity control via DAC+PWM). SPI bus makes interfacing to them easy, but limits the effective frame rate. BuyDisplay/EastRising Technology display modules tend to export the connection method, so parallel bus interfacing is available at relatively high clock rates, and usually even the TE pin (tear effect, needed for update sync without tearing) is exposed. To control them, I like to use a microcontroller, that then interfaces to the host SBC with either USB or UART.The issue is the parallel bus. Typically, you have 8/9/16/18 data lines, and a write strobe. Perfect for DMA'ing, right?My favourite microcontroller for this is Teensy 4. SparkFun even sells a compatible variant,MicroMod Teensy, but it has that annoying M.2 card-edge connector (and has had issues due to the PCB flexing). All I really want is the NXP i.MX RT1062 MCU, the proprietary PJRC bootloader chip (NXP MKL02), USB OTG/Device, a couple of PSRAM/Flash footprints, and lots of I/O in GPIO bank order. PJRC will even sell the bootloader chips separately, if one designs their own board. Running at 600 MHz, it has ample power to do GPU-like stuff, like compositing the output data from several framebuffers, and would make for a really nice programmable GPU-display module for all sorts of things. i.MX RT1062 also has LCD support (can generate the signals needed to drive display modules without controllers), and 512k+512k of internal RAM, so it's eminently suitable.But, even though it's proven it can be done at quite low cost –– about $25 in parts in singles from standard sources including the 6-layer board, MCU, components, and the display module ––, nobody makes or sells them, and I'm just a hobbyist and trying to get 6-layer BGA (i.MX RT1062 is only available in 196-pad BGA in 0.8mm or 0.65mm pitch) routed correctly the first go is, ahem,unlikely. I'd probably only use a dozen of them in my lifetime, even if they were off-the-shelf, so how much effort should I put in these?(I have run a company for a few years myself, but burned out horribly: I'm not suited for business aspectsat all. Even now, a couple of decades later, my mental heath won't stretch even to me selling any extra boards on Tindie, if I managed to make them.)The same problem exists with many other "hobbyist" fields dealing with displays or cameras, and even audio. The possibilities are nearly endless with off-the-shelfcomponents; it's just that theintegrationinto useful modules is lacking. (Systems integration, i.e. implementing say Linux on routers, switches, appliances, etc. is evenmorelacking. Yes, there is Yocto, OpenWRT, and other projects, but most commercially available appliances have a rather non-expertly cobbled together system software setups. As shown by e.g. Rigol's new DHO800/DHO900 series scopes running on top of a non-bound-tight Android, the possibilities are there; we just lack thehuman expertiseto integrate them sensibly and effectively. We need hobbyist integrators!(That's the reason my hobbyistprojectsare all in Public Domain: I wouldn't mind a Chinese factory to run a few thousand units to sell on eBay to hobbyists like myself. But, because I'm only a hobbyist and they're not exactly Sparkling with Magic, it's as likely as an alien landing nearby and giving me ice cream.)It issoannoying when cheap suitable hardware exists, but nobody puts it together in a useful form. This pushes one to either technologically inferior solutions (like me not using DMA, and Raspberries' USB multi-generational issues), or buying "proper" programmable display modules or even a low-power secondary SBC with HDMI or LCD connector.Quote from: Fflint on October 14, 2023, 09:17:09 amInteract with your postman, in Finland? Uh, no. The best you can hope for is a notification to come to a post office.I'm not sure if it is still the case today, but the last time I had to pay it separately I had to go to a *different* post office to pay VAT and the fee to get the package, and there was an extra delay of a couple of weeks before it even got there (within Finland, I mean). There are very few actual Posti offices in Finland left, as most are just proxies, "service points", subcontractors attached to a store; not owned or operated by Posti proper. (Outside large cities, there's typically just one "real" office per municipality.) I do not believe these proxy offices are allowed to handle customs at all here in Finland, but things could have changed in the last couple of years.(As a government-owned business, Posti is a prime example of how not to do things, even though their Cxxes consistently get all kinds of bonuses and rewards. The *only* part of the business that had been consistently on the positive for decades was domestic post: domestic letters and parcels, both private and commercial, even when the "extra" cost of lots of small packages coming in from disadvantaged countries like China was included. Then, they decided to "expand" and "diversify", and as usual, that burned a shitton of money with nothing gained. Now, to compensate for their idiocy, what do they do?They reduce domestic post services, even limiting post delivery to few days a week."Because business has been poor, we needX", right. What we need, is actual business people in charge, that can maintain a business model without diversifying into bird watching and supporting rioters. The core business was always profitable in Finland according to their own figures, it's just that they decided they needed to diversify into mowing peoples lawns and whatnot, which backfired exactly as us "conspiracy theorists" claimed it would, and nowcustomers, not the leaders and proponents and promoters of that idiocy and loss of investments, have to pay the price. Fucking idiots!)Quote from: Fflint on October 14, 2023, 09:17:09 amFor a similar reason, I keep reminding my friends aboutOlimex, a Bulgarian embedded products and tools company (est. 1991) that has a lot of Open Source Hardware products, and quite nice designs. I want them around, I want them to make a profit, and I want them to succeed, because I like their business model and the products they do.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 11:22:47 am
content: Oddly enough I have been tinkering, with the "Micro-noding" as I call it now, myself.I got enamoured with the little Zimaboard 832. I ordered one. (N3450 4 core 8Gb, 2xSATA3, 2xUSB3, 1x4Lane PCIe gen2 slot.Then I went an ordered 2 more. Totally superfluous expenditure. This one was 90% for fun.The 10% is the aspiration to minimise power consumption without limiting my "peak power" available. So while I have 2 beast hypervisor hosts, they each consume 40-50W each "idle loaded". I do shut one of them down, making one the busy box 24hour and the other the dev machine / VDIs, toys etc.The 3x Zimaboards (which have a TDP of 4W or something stupid), I was hoping could run the 24/7 "headless" services like DHCP, DNS, basic NAS, basic NFS, MQTT, home auto stuff, maybe even HomeAssistant. All the stuff that I would like to stay running 24/7 365. Nobody like big toothless gaps in their pretty graphs!My first attempt was to throw the 3 of them into the deep end. I installed Proxmox on all 3, added them to my cluster and shifted a slightly reduced set of k8s nodes to them. This "worked", but the k8s cluster had many thing which were not 24/7 loads and took up pretty much 100% of the micro-nodes resources. They had memory and CPU left, but not much and when I started stacking on LXCs for DNS, DCHP, Proxy.... stability and latency went through the roof, bottle necking across all layers cascadinig performance into the deck.Not really a surprising result. Actually I'm impressed how well it will run the k8s cluster alone. It's just that the load those 5 VMs placed on the 3 micro-node hypervisors was 101% of what they can handle.If I want to go K8S then they will do perfectly fine baremetal. However there are some 24/7 items I would rather not have to run in K8S. A 5x VLAN'd DHCP server comes to mind. As do some of the USB coupled services.So, with a bit of a sigh, I am going to move 24/7 services back to predominantly LXCs and docker-compose stacks for resource efficiency and keep the k8s cluster for the dev tools, dev ops, kafka, enterprise play lab only.Anyway, they are cute!

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 11:24:22 am
content: I will have to go read the rest of the thread, as another option, if the 3 Zimas are just not enough is to give them a hand by adding one of those N100s/J6510 pfSense boxes off AliEx with 32Gb of RAM and 6 2.5Gb NICs. The price vary dramatically and not all are as good value as others.If I can bring the power consumption under the current 100W base load I'd be happy.Last test with just 3xZimas + all switches/routers was 47W. I have plans to take 2 of the more power hungry 2.5/10G switches out overnight which will take another 20-25W off that budget!