Black Gate Capacitors  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 01:11:15 am
content: I was browsing the web, when some audiophool claimed that "Black Gate" capacitors were the best money could buy and surely, with a quick search on eBay, someone is selling them at $500USD each.http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-BLACK-GATE-WKZ-CAPACITORS-HEART-OF-MUSE-100MF-500-550VDC-VERIFIED-IN-SPEC-/121279850111?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item1c3cd7a67fIs there really anything special about them, or is it like what I think, a heap of crap.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 01:15:53 am
content: unless these are being used for AC coupling caps and not just the DC power supply there is no need for them,Rubycon is the actual brand and a good brand, as for the series i have no idea, but old electrolytic tends to be worse than new electrolytic as they do age,

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 01:31:17 am
content: I understand that Rubycon caps are good quality, and I like them nyself. But $500?

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 08:46:55 am
content: They are an audio-phool item, that would explain the pricing. How often do you need a 500V 100uF cap for AC coupling? heh.0.1ohm for a 100uF 500V cap seems a bit shit also but i'm not familiar with that ESR meter.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 08:56:32 am
content: Indeed. In one of his VBLOG's, even Dave found some Rubicon "black-gold" caps in some device, and when he looked up the official specsheet, a phrase was in there about how they were specifically made for audio and ensured exceptional sound reproduction.Not sure which VBLOG it was, but you can imagine Dave's standard reaction to such phrases. I recall he was actually rather mild at the time. Must have been a busy day.Must be lucrative for Rubicon though.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 09:15:42 am
content: You can have capacitors specially made cheaper than that far cheaper, I had some power correction capacitors made for me and they only came to £8-00 each for ten off.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 09:25:08 am
content: At the time of production it was a special audio series Rubycon made with extreme low ESR and some other qualities. In the mean time most series of Rubycon have surpassed them in terms of low ESR. The name and the manufacturer called it special audio series sticks however with the less technical audiophiles and they have given those caps extra unsubstantiated claims.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 09:34:00 am
content: The cap manufactures just took note that audiophiles will pay anything for the best of something so they made a special class of cap using excessively high quality materials (compared to normal caps) so they could charge a shitloads for them.So,Yes, they are very well made caps and probably do produce better sound when used for AC coupling. (i'm not saying its actually noticeable though)No they're not worth the money.When it comes to getting good sound the only thing that matters is the speakers themselves.In terms of sound quality a cellphone diving some sensitive klipsch reference speakers directly from its puny headphone jack output will kick the pants off a $10,000 audio amp full of those caps driving some cheap speakers.(Obviously not in terms of volume but you'd be surprised how loud a 0.5W amp is when put into a floorstanding horn speaker)

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 01:39:43 pm
content: "Electron transfer". Dang I need some caps that can transfer electrons!

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 01:46:40 pm
content: Put them on my watch-list, just to see if someone is stupid enough to buy them.Pity its not a auction. Would have bid 10ct easily.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 03:22:35 pm
content: Quote from: cybermaus on February 24, 2014, 01:46:40 pmSame here. Just for the hell of it.Quote from: Stonent on February 24, 2014, 01:39:43 pmDon't we all?

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 03:53:24 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on February 24, 2014, 09:34:00 am"it is better to be thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt."

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 04:09:05 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on February 24, 2014, 01:39:43 pmHmm, stupid me. In the past, if I had caps that transferred electrons, I trew them out. On account of me stupidly thinking they sprung a leak. Did not occur to me to put them on eBay.

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 05:23:14 pm
content: Black Gates? Maybe a start toward audiophool wankery, but all the cool kids are gutting their filter caps, and putting them in exotic hardwood cases and repotting with pure beeswax:http://studiozey.com/woodencapacitor/index.html

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 05:33:22 pm
content: the 'woody mod' really needs to be dated april-1.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 06:46:58 pm
content: I am going to start a business selling these "wood capacitors." I can just smell that new Agilent 4000X series.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 06:55:39 pm
content: well, they do put wirewounds in cement...I'm waiting for chocolate covered mosfets, myself. they have a very sweet sound.

author: Prime73
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 07:02:10 pm
content: Quote from: N2IXK on February 24, 2014, 05:23:14 pm

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 07:10:32 pm
content: I liked the part where he extracted rosin from pine branches collected in a "virgin forest in Poland", and claims that rosin not only improves the sound, but is superior to "processed" rosin available commercially.Also the part where he advises to make sure that you use only "natural" fabrics to wrap the capacitor after you un-tape it. I wonder if we can sell him some caps made from "naturally refined aluminum", instead of the "processed" 99% pure Japanese garbage.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 07:13:30 pm
content: Tell me he's taking the piss...he is, isn't he? He must be.

author: Prime73
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 07:15:45 pm
content: next logical step is to manufacture fabrics DIY style. I wonder how bamboo based fabric/paper stack up against linen fabric? ....

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 07:18:21 pm
content: For a more mellow sound use hemp based fabrics.

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 07:41:39 pm
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on February 24, 2014, 07:18:21 pmAnd use some EZ-Wider or Zig-Zag paper instead of the silk wrapping...

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 07:46:02 pm
content: next week...The Semi-Conducting Properties of Rocks, Twigs and Leaves: Towards the Ultimate "All Natural" Amplifier.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 08:02:59 pm
content: Quote from: N2IXK on February 24, 2014, 05:23:14 pmNow that is insane!

author: MarkL
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 08:22:51 pm
content: Quote from: N2IXK on February 24, 2014, 05:23:14 pmBe sure you don't miss the description of the Invistor on the same web site:http://studiozey.com/invisistor/index.htmlWhen looking at Vishay precision resistors, the word "nude" just didn't occur to me.The Invistors look like clothing accessories. Is this what "wearable electronics" means?(edit: fix typo)

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 08:30:53 pm
content: "Imagine a resistor that passes on the full dynamic range of the signal, while being completely transparent itself."yeah, we call themjumper shuntsfull dynamic range of the signal. I didn't know resistors were non-linear parts.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 09:07:27 pm
content: So what do you guys think about a company like this then:http://www.duelundaudio.comSome prices for their capacitors, they range from $50 to $4000http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/duelund_capacitors.htmlhttp://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_duelund_pio_electonic.html

author: wiss
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 09:51:00 pm
content: Quote from: linux-worksThey are nonlinear, good ones below 1 ppm, bad ones 100 ppm...

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 10:31:01 pm
content: I think we should try to convince the audiophile community to upgrade the circuit boards instead.Like re-make the bare board but use higher quality dielectric and thicker copper.And then they can de-solder each and every component from the original and transplant it to the newly etched board.That will keep em busy for a good long time and off the forums with silly questions

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 10:35:56 pm
content: Maybe we should encourage the "dead bug" style that would keep them busy for years. It would probably need a cooler name like "black death" or such.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 11:00:20 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 24, 2014, 10:31:01 pmWell, as always, Vincent has the best ideas.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 11:21:08 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on February 24, 2014, 09:34:00 amI'm actually still using my homemade 30W per channel TI Hybrid Digital amp as my main amp for music. At normal listening volume, it only draws 1W from the mains! It's pretty loud well before the wattmeter goes to the double digits.The amplifier chipsets are getting so advanced that it's getting very hard to tell the difference by listening.

author: smashedProton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 02:24:47 am
content: Quote from: N2IXK on February 24, 2014, 07:41:39 pmWe have found the pot smoker folks

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 02:33:38 am
content: OT: but probably 1/3 to half the readers here, are.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 03:03:02 am
content: Great... now I'm hungry...

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 03:07:17 am
content: Quote from: don.r on February 25, 2014, 03:03:02 am... Maybe a sandwich? I'll send one to you with UPS International.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 03:24:49 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on February 25, 2014, 03:07:17 amSwine!

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 03:27:14 am
content: Quote from: don.r on February 25, 2014, 03:24:49 amI think you mean "ham"

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 03:54:37 am
content: Quote from: wiss on February 24, 2014, 09:51:00 pmIn the application of a properly designed audio reproduction system, even a one hung lo 1% metal film is going to do better than 1ppm THD+N.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 11:27:55 am
content: Given the existence of the wooden capacitors (which I find foolish but very creative and artful), it seems logical thatPCB also should become wood. Maybe even with graphite/nano-carbon tracks.I would even consider to buy such an nearly all wood device. As object of art, not for audio-phoolery.PS: not sure if art would be the right word. Don't come talking about how the wood represents a deep desire to return to nature, bla, bla, bla. But if skillfully made, with pleasing shapes, close-fitting nearly seamless joints, and polished surfaces....the realization that the electronics itself is part of it, not just hidden away inside it. Yes, I could buy that. (if it comes at a non-back-braking price)

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 01:20:25 pm
content: Wood... The. The question is what sounds better : rosewood, mahogany or teak ?

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 01:32:52 pm
content: Ones the audio people get hold of it, there will be whole boards dedicated to that question.And they willnever get consensus.For me, do not like noise. My wooden stereo would mostly be turned off.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 04:24:50 pm
content: Quote from: cybermaus on February 25, 2014, 01:32:52 pmobviously you cannot compare the sound of a wooden pcb that cost $10psf with one that cost $100psf. That would be foolish...

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 05:02:22 pm
content: My first ever transistor radio was made of wood with brass screws:http://www.mds975.co.uk/Content/george_dobbs_trf_radio.htmlTo think, even as a nipper back in the 70s I was apparently an audiophile too!Why yes, the radio did have a warm wood sound, like a prize cricket bat lovingly oiled for hours of linseed polishing to give warmer, more danceable timbre while the brass screws make for excellent pitch.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 05:57:10 pm
content: Looks like mere pine. You are not taking this seriously are you?

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 06:51:47 pm
content: And ordinary brass screws, too.How can they possibly provide decent sound quality without being made from virgin, oxygen-free ultra high purity, crystal-aligned brass, then subjected to a 3 month cryogenic treatment, then hand polished by naked virgins using unicorn fur gloves during a lunar eclipse?

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 07:03:39 pm
content: Joking aside: I browsed through that book. Very nice. I would have loved to have had that kit as a boy.All doable with a few simple tools from the toolshed

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2014, 04:18:53 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on February 25, 2014, 05:02:22 pmI was building circuits in the 1960's using that method, but drawing pins or copper tacks instead of screws, I had read about it in a book ,cant remember the title or author now though.The same book also suggested using chocolate block strip for trying out circuits.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2014, 05:36:06 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on February 25, 2014, 05:02:22 pmRadio, meet bat.Bat , widlarize radio.(loosely based on that line uttered by danny devito when he introduces his new dobermann to his ex-wifes poodle. forgot the movieMuffy, meet Adolf.Adolf, eat Muffy !)

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2014, 07:33:16 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 26, 2014, 05:36:06 pmRuthless People?

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 08:03:21 pm
content: Black Gate Capacitors? Sounds like something from Lord of the Rings

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 09:13:35 pm
content: BG's are very well known to the audio DIY crowd.some of us don't quite believe this hype. I don't personally know anyone who does, but then again, those that believe in magic would not be ones I would hang out with, muchnichicon and pany, iirc, also have a line of 'audio grade' caps. its not just fringe. if they can sell to phools, they will, and laugh all the way to the bank.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 12:47:46 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on February 28, 2014, 10:55:51 am+1 with a positive gain >1

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 12:51:28 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on February 27, 2014, 09:13:35 pmYes, not uncommon. I just sampled one of those amazing Vishay bulk foil resistors to repair a voltage standard (hey -I didn't beg for a sample, they offered!) and the datasheet is full of audiophool crap. It's kind of amusing, as the thing is so damn good by the numbers that it ought to be able to stand by those alone...

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 01:55:42 pm
content: But the hard-core audiophool community isn't swayed by numbers or objective measurements, due to a combination of such measurements proving what BS most audiophoolery is, or not even understanding the meaning of such measurements in the first place.Much easier to rant on with subjective talk about "staging", "warmth", "transparency", "clarity", "crispness", "presence", "muddiness", etc., knowing that they can never be proved wrong when they aren't making objectively testable claims in the first place. If you can't hear the "glaring" differences, you just don't have the required "golden ears", and therefore aren't qualified to comment anyway. Kind of like a religion (which it is in its own way).

author: lapm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 06:48:40 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on February 28, 2014, 03:47:26 pmSounds like modern art. No-one understands what its supposed to present but anyone that just bought one cant admit they just wasted tons of money...

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 06:56:59 pm
content: Quote from: lapm on February 28, 2014, 06:48:40 pmIts not a waste if they can convince a greater fool that its worth more than they paid for it.... then its an "investment"... I have seen some audio gear trade like this.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2014, 12:38:05 pm
content: Strange is that the audio chain almost surely originally was done with stuff sent through a chain of 741 opamps and recorded onto half inch tape which was lubricated with whale oil. This then is the best you can get, nothing further down the chain will make a difference.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2014, 08:49:10 pm
content: Quote from: cybermaus on February 25, 2014, 07:03:39 pmYes, I even used my dads ancient hand drill from the back garden shed. It's all power drills now! I loved that project and going into town to buy all the mysterious parts. Later I got the "100 in 1" type of kit with spring contacts and inbuilt meters, lamps, LEDs, battery, etc.One thing I never got to do was make a proper "cats whisker" using coke and a coiled wire (like in the book). However, in order to make an audiophool "discriminator" I think I will have to make my coke from elephants tusk or rhino horn, and use solid gold coiled wire and mount it on the finest mason sculpted marble.

author: tsmith35
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2014, 09:06:03 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on March 01, 2014, 08:49:10 pmPlease note that you must not use any type of power tools or mass-produced tools during formation and assembly, as the fugitive magnetic emissions of such devices may negatively impact the naturally neutral state of the raw materials. It's recommended that all formation and assembly be done while nude, preferably far away from any "modern" dwellings. A natural cave that has not been exposed to any type of electrical device (flashlights are especially bad) makes the ideal assembly site, but they're getting harder to find these days.