What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: VSV_electron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 01:22:52 am
content: I decided to comeback to electronics spontaneously without much thinking about what I was going to do. I had a very vague idea of the knowledge gaps I wanted to fill mostly in the analog electronics as I consider it the most exciting part of the hobby.They still manufacture transistors! - That was good news.However, as it became apparent to me everyone seems to move into the digital (aka Arduino) territory and no one is much interested in analog any longer except for some specific areas such as tube amps and other guitar stuff building.So I'm sitting here and thinking about what analog projects it's worth undertaking and learning about in 2022 and upcoming 2023. I'd like to be able to start from scratch, design a circuit, make all the calculations and implement it. Since I was mostly interested in the transistors in the amplification mode what should I be looking for? Nothing but sound amplifiers comes to mind but that's too limited task in itself.In the old day everyone was building am radio receivers (I built one myself when I was 12) but who's working on them these days?Anyway - what are your interests in the analog electronics in the age of total MCU dominance?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 01:32:38 am
content: Quote from: VSV_electron on November 25, 2022, 01:22:52 amAnalog computing to solve differential equations.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 01:55:39 am
content: I need a good analog design person, (alas not up and running, business-wise), that's optical analog, interfaces, speed switching options, knowing the trends in highest speed photodiode, orThat means some sort of non-semiconductor switch core, perhaps nano-meta material.Best would probably have background in optical networks (digital, sorry).I have method(s) doing low level, BOTH digital and analog...To the degree unique that it's, actually, really FUN, to work on, and confusing at same time.One of the passive computational elements will do a multiply, of a digital word, X times an analog word. The analog word 'representation' has similar BUS segmented or separated 'beamways'.Oh, and the work also demanding 'skill' in making up new tech terminologies...like 'discrete analog shifter',or 'Flux Capac... Oh wait

author: VSV_electron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 03:18:35 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 25, 2022, 01:32:38 amI see the point of the joke but...I recently watched a YT presentation of an "Arduino expert". He discussed two different types of relays to use in "Arduino" (I'm sure he is unaware of what that actually is in essence).So he went: "Here you see 2 types of relays: the first one is (showing an electromechanical one)... ehhh - Let's call it the "old type"... The second is (showing a solid state optocoupler one)" - Let's call it the "new type". So, if you don't want to mess with a diode (a really scary thing), forget about "the old type" relay...Isn't that the beauty of the Arduino world?

author: VSV_electron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 03:33:48 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 25, 2022, 01:32:38 amBy the way, jokes aside... it just occurred to me that in your sarcastic reply (which is really spicy and funny) there is some rationality. Back in my University days we did some lab calculations on the analog computers to simulated behavior of the control systems implementing various methods of regulations. That was very interesting. Not sure if I'm ready to build an analog computer though :-)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 03:50:34 pm
content: Quote from: VSV_electron on November 25, 2022, 01:22:52 amSampling systems thatdon'tconvert to/from the digital domain.For example, in the late 70s I built a bandpass filter with a Q of 4000 using 10% capacitors.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 04:04:20 pm
content: Quote from: VSV_electron on November 25, 2022, 03:18:35 pmThat was not a joke.Are you looking for an analog project idea, or just want to rant against Arduino?

author: VSV_electron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 08:43:38 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on November 25, 2022, 04:04:20 pmHow do you know it wasn't? Sounds like it was but I'm fine with that.Actually I don't mind bothIn a number of replies to a similar question on Redit as far as I remember there was a reply that went something like "The Moog that doesn't drift".I don't thnink you wouldn't notice some sarcasm in that reply

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 11:15:30 pm
content: my SIGSALY Quantizer reconstruction IEEE SPECTRUM article2x 6SL7 dynamique microphone preamplifier5x 2050 argon thyratronforms a reconstruction of WWII speech scrambling system first ADC, a six level flash converter used in à top secret speech scrambling system, 1942.Your thoughts appreciatedBon SoiréeJon

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 08:27:33 am
content: Quote from: VSV_electron on November 25, 2022, 08:43:38 pmI know from other posts in this forum that he likes analog computing:Image from here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-did-you-do-with-or-to-your-oscilloscope-today/msg3030544/#msg3030544Fun note, the name itself of "analog" electronic came from the fact that linear circuits with R, L, and amplifiers can be ananalogof the differential equations met in the physical world (analog circuits able to simulate, and thus solve, other non-electronic problems we face in our day-to-day real world). Never mind, here's another analog project idea:Chaotic Attractors(there are many variations, either with transistors or with opamps):https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/t20347/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/tek-475a-vs-tek-2445/msg4401871/#msg4401871Picture found in the above EEVblog links, source:https://www.mitchr.me/SS/Rossler/Fun to try if you have an oscilloscope. If you don't have an oscilloscope, you can use the sound card as a dual channel oscilloscope in XY mode, with a programs like this:https://www.zeitnitz.eu/scope_en

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 08:35:04 am
content: Quote from: jonpaul on November 25, 2022, 11:15:30 pmWow, very nice!Never looked into audio scramblers, now I'm curious, how does it work?

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 09:15:29 am
content: ROgorge, Rebonjour,Studied and lectured on SIGSALY and modern digital media history since 1990s.After 20 yrs or research and a year to design, construct and debug, VOILA! The only SIGSALY Quantizer (ADC) reconstruction.....JUST one of 72 six level flash ADC in SIGSALY.the only part ever reconstructed according to the Agencies and Museums.The entire SIGSALY system filled 40 racks and a room, took 30 kW and 15 techs to run!Read all about SIGSALY at NSA NCMhttps://scienceblogs.de/klausis-krypto-kolumne/2019/03/03/rebuilding-a-part-of-the-legendary-sigsaly/My articles: IEEE Spectrum Feb 2019https://spectrum.ieee.org/rebuilding-a-piece-of-the-first-digital-voice-scramblerhttps://spectrum.ieee.org/sigsaly-analogtodigital-converter-construction-and-debuggingYour thoughts appreciated !Bon WeekendJon

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 03:53:52 am
content: Curious, (I only know vacume tubes from audio stuff.)What type, in general, is it ramp gen and comparator, and did it need sample and hold ?And, what speed ?...Does it have an interface, digital type ?Now I know that the assembly you show isn't the whole sys, but just the general spec.s ?Does it need special thermal stability ? Thanks.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 04:49:40 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on November 26, 2022, 08:27:33 amI had no intention of being sarcastic nor of making a joke. Just about my ONLY interest in analog is in terms of analog computing. I have two of the Comdyna computers plus I have built another from a design by Dr. Vogel:http://www.analogmuseum.org/english/homebrew/vogel/There are actually two problems patched on that GP-6: One is the Mass-Spring-Damper and the other is the swinging door seen in some restaurants between the cooking and serving areas.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 05:20:34 am
content: The Dr. Vogel Analog Computer linked above has 2 integrators plus some other toys. This allows integration of acceleration to get velocity and integration of velocity to get displacement. Thus it is suitable for many 2d order ordinary differential equations. I added a test point so I could connect a scope but other than that, I just used the plans.It is a high capable machine for the money and in terms of education, it's a treat!

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 05:22:28 pm
content: There are interesting challenges to be had, for those who have experience with the likes of arduino and microcontrollers, in looking to create systems with the same functionality solely from analogue ICs (op amps, timers, comparators...). One can perhaps allow some simple digital gate ICs too. I've been working on a few such things, sticking to a rule of "generic" components only (things which multiple manufacturers make very similar options for). Think of something you'd apply a microcontrolelr too, or one of the functionalities involved in a larger microcontrolelr project, and try to offload it entirely to working on analogue ICs, I guess you'd have further considerations to include if you went right back to the individual transistors level.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 05:33:14 pm
content: Better, arguably, to use analogue components to achieve things that can't be achieved with digital systems.Or to start from the understanding that the only digital circuits you are likely to encounter are femtoamp and photon counting circuits - and progress from there. (Yes, so-called digital circuits are analogue circuits that interpret voltage/current waveforms as digital signals)

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 05:55:47 am
content: Rebonjour RJ Hyward, et tous,Appreciate your questions: a few clarificarions....This reconstruction is the 6 level Quantizer, the very first analog to digital converter, invented at Bell Laboratoires 1942 in New York, one of 72 used in the SIGSALY top secret speech scrambling system.See the NSA, NCM and cryptomuseum for full history and operation of SIGSALY, the origin of today's world of digital media... all mobiles, videos. music.The reconstruction has a dynamic microphone transformer coupled preamplifier with 6SL7, a voltage doubler detector and 5 x2050 WW2 argon filled thyratron tubes as comparateurs.These 5 tubes form a flash converter from a log law resistor ladder.The output digital lights 5 neon bulbs.Sampling rate is at mains zero, 100 or . 120 Hz as thyratron B+ is 350 rectified, unfiltered SC.All details in the IEEE SPECTRUM article or February 2019.Enjoy!Your thoughts send comments are appreciated!From Paris 6eme arrondissementJon

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 08:54:14 am
content: This one is a beauty:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscope-pong-for-1-or-2-players/Homepage:https://www.glensstuff.com/pong/pong.htm100% discrete analog computing...I don't know why, but the youtube video / channel was deleted...I guess if you want to experience this next-level implementation, you will need to build one yourself.All schematics are available in the thread.If you want a video color raster version with score board, go to this page:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscope-pong-for-1-or-2-players/500/Homepage:https://www.glensstuff.com/videopong/videopong.htmMany other analog computing projects from GK:https://www.glensstuff.com/index.htm#5

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 04:02:37 pm
content: A DIY version of one of these is a nice "analog" project for 2023:https://www.thinksrs.com/products/sr560.htmhttps://www.thinksrs.com/products/sr570.htmlShould keep you busy

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 01:11:21 am
content: Rebonjour jonpaul, Merciboucou voltra response!I'm curious, still, so that's a flash convert, spanning the equivalent of (less than) octal or 3 bits. Octal binary would do 7 individual states. Must have been horribly distorted AUDIO if they converted back !Did not quite understand the conversion rate mentioned. Sorry, smartphone only, no PC access to read that, (plus, subscription IEEE).Maybe wouldn't have hurt, if they included a 'dead line' indicator, for input = 0...that being 6th state ?- Rick (RJHayward)EDIT:Also was thinking that the logarithimic scale maybe helped convert (audio) with less perception of distortion? And, sivousplai, which way (log or exp), are the 5 steps, above 0 getting larger and larger, each step? OR, was AC, centered on '3rd' lamp, plus or minus 2 steps?...(that is; -2, -1, 0, +1, +2) ignoring the logarithemic characteristic.)AND, please, was it really a scrambler, I mean with a 'key Code', in case enemies spy had the hardware design? In other words, just the novelty was considered so 'out-there' as to be secure.

author: niconiconi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 02:34:48 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 25, 2022, 01:32:38 amToday I just found several "exercise for the readers" questions on analog computing from EAI Handbook of Analog Computation (1971), I'm going to try solving a few of them in 2023 to learn some basic physics and electronics simultaneously.

author: niconiconi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 03:16:05 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on November 26, 2022, 08:27:33 amTo be clearer, it's called analog because the circuit is anelectrical analogyof a mechanical (or some other physical) system.The etymology of the term "analog" in "analog circuit" was quite interesting indeed. Apparently, the first recorded usage of the term "analog" wasspecificallyused in the context of analog computing, as an adjective before the term "computer" (initially as a reaction to "digital", as digital computers started to see its uses). Later, opamps became general-purpose circuit components, so "analog" started to be used to describe "circuit". Eventually, all circuits without logic are described as "analog circuit".https://readingjimwilliams.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-history-of-analog-part-1.html

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 03:35:29 am
content: Quote from: niconiconi on December 04, 2022, 02:34:48 amI have #4 pretty much under control and I have done #1.

author: niconiconi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 03:47:54 am
content: Quote from: VSV_electron on November 25, 2022, 01:22:52 amIn the age of total MCU dominance, analog electronics still never really went away, it's always working in the background to play its specialized roles to support digital applications: input signal conditioning circuits in front of ADCs, an amplifier with low noise (or high bandwidth / low DC drift and offset), microvolt signal amplification for sensors, closed-loop control systems, a power supply with fast transient response (or low switching noise, or high efficiency), power distribution on a circuit board without parasitic resonance, and the likes. It often doesn't sound cool or fancy, but there are still interesting circuits to play with. Today's analog projects are largely driven by digital controllers, but analog circuits are still here, often performing serious tasks. Sometimes the MCU is just here for doing housekeeping tasks, such as driving a display or reading the buttons, It's the analog components that perform the actual work.Furthermore, RF/microwave electronics is more important than ever today, ironically, at least partially due to the digital dominance. For modern Gbps digital links, basic knowledge of RF/microwave test and measurements is required. I spent a couple of weeks this year on measuring the impact of parasitic capacitance of protection components up to 500 MHz for a digital application. Also, even in the most advanceddigitalSoftware-Defined Radio systems, it still needs a goodanalogRF front-end design to function. With today's inexpensive electronics and circuit boards, DC to 1 GHz is now within the reach of many hobbyists, the future is bright.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 09:54:46 am
content: Quote from: niconiconi on December 04, 2022, 03:47:54 amWhile I agree with your other points, can I suggest it isn't always quite that simple.Have a look at how SDR dongles are implemented, but ignore the boring IQ digitisation. The front-end mixers are simultaneouslysamplingdevices andanaloguedevices, which is effectively a very neat halfway house between analogue and digital.The other point is that RF commscontinueto push the digital signals closer to the antennaMy other other standard point is that digital devices are actually non-linear analogue devices whichinterpretanalogue waveforms as digital signals. When that is forgotten you end up with rare unreproducible errors (e.g. due to metastability) and rare reproducible errors (e.g. due to pattern sensitivity).

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 01:59:14 pm
content: RoGeorge: Mille mercis pour votre gentil notes!SIGSALY scrambler info and technical is at NSA/NCM and cryptomuseum.org, etc.Voice>>Vocoder>>1o bands energy, pitch, voiced/unvoiced = 12 parameters + one bit.SIGSALY used the pictured quantizer X 72 pcs ....a 6 level log flash converter on EACH of the 12 Vocoder parameters.Sampling was 20 mS. The conversion was analog eg 0-25V from eac Vocoder parameter>>ladder R>>5 thyratrons served as 2..3 V comparators.Output was a staircase of one of 6 levels including zero.Thus the Vocoder parameters were quantized into one of six digital levels.You can find the PDF of my IEEE Spectrum articles online.Much more engineering and design in the compression, spread spectrum and unbreakable coding.Happy to send you copies privately (C) IEEE) if you PM meBon Weekend,Jon

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 03:55:51 pm
content: I have very recently retired, therefore I am pondering at similar ideas.For me is to understand, and I mean really understand, the analog functions. Understand not only how to fully calculate a particular function, but understand component sensitivity, how different non-ideal characteristics affect performance, the tradeoffs between dynamic range, distortion, noise, frequency response, power consumption, input impedance, etc, etc.This is a a three pronged approach:1-hand calculations, well with Excel’s or Mathcad’s help.2- Simulations3- Actually building the circuit and probe around with a scope.Thus, not a complete project per se, but to master my “analog toolbox” to be ready when the need arises.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 11:20:45 pm
content: Quote from: niconiconi on December 04, 2022, 03:16:05 amI've messed up bad that explanation, sorry. I think about analog electronic or analog computing as incontinuous changerather thansimilar with, same as theanalogfrom math:https://www.mathsisfun.com/definitions/analog.htmlDifferential equations, too, are about continuous change, or small increments, close to each other, related similar, they all point to the idea of a continuity. They can model/simulate physical systems.I'm no expert in the genealogy of the word analog, saying how it is in my head. We have the 'analogie' in Romanian, too, which is used as similar/alike. Romanian is a Latin language, while English is a Germanic language, not sure who got it from where, wouldn't be surprised both got it from Greek.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 03:07:40 am
content: My take on the wording would start at those screen shots in the intro, featuring graphical 'attractors' and resulting shapes. Yes the analog world was quite separate, but not so separate now.If a person is talking employment that distinction is more like 1970, than now. Because, back then an Engineer career path was set up, a bit, by choices. Some even dispised any digital or programming chores. I always liked to see bridges, as the 'two' camps evolved.In today's technology, I'm not getting such impressions, as the analog RF Engineers wear several hats, including miniature 'packaging' and mechanical design of products. Heck, many Mechanical Engineers these days could turn circles around my computer and even digital circuit skills.Would like to see more PHYSICs expertise, though many are active cross-field there, as well!My doctor started in EE (UC Berkeley) and Enterprise Management.I think massive computing power will displace much of the mainly analog 'catagories', unless cost saving, like current RF devices. Older analog might become just more as a model or goal, for the newer hybrids...(sorry).- - RJ.