Starter Scope - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Dellyjoe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2020, 12:04:48 am
content: Good Evening everyone,I have been out in the real world for about three years, I just started to go back to school to get my M.S, I'm looking at circuit design.atm I have to go to work and use my works scopes to look at the hardware that I build for school, these scopes are around $22,000 dollars and I simply can't get anything close to that.I'm looking at around 700-800 dollars for a starter scopeI hear the new scopes for the hobbies are really good. I would like to get a scope that allows me to plot bode plots, for input and output impedance and gain of a circuit.I'm looking into keysight oscilloscope edux10052g it is around $700.00 dollars and It has good educational features.What would you all recommend? I'm new here so good easy on me, but i really would like to know what you would think is best for me.Thank you for your time,Joe

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2020, 12:52:51 am
content: What sort of work do you plan to do with it? Honestly these days $800 is much more than I'd consider for a "starter" scope unless you know you're going to need the abilities. The best bang for the buck is still probably the Rigol DS1054z that you can get brand new for $349 and do a quick easy hack to 100MHz. There are also some popular Siglent models in that same price range although I don't think they have anything 4 channel for so little.As you go above 100MHz prices start to rise pretty quickly, but unless you need the bandwidth I would probably buy the Rigol and spend the rest of your budget on a decent multimeter and maybe a soldering station, power supply, signal generator, really depends on what you're interested in doing.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2020, 01:10:36 am
content: If you have the funds to spring for the KS don't overlook SDS2202X-E.Similar sampling rate but 200 MHz and a heap more memory and decode is free.However the general consensus is to get a 4ch DSO especially for the likes of decoding protocols needing CS so another powerful DSO to consider is the 4ch 100 MHz SDS1104X-E that while having 2 ADC's is only a 1 GSa/s unit.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2020, 01:45:24 am
content: If bode-plots are important then Siglent is king of the hill but IIRC the lower cost scopes need an external Siglent function generator. Which isn't bad perse because external (stand alone) function generators are better compared to the ones built into oscilloscopes anyway.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2020, 08:23:26 am
content: Quote from: Dellyjoe on March 16, 2020, 12:04:48 amIn the $700 range? The Keysight.

author: modoran
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2020, 01:58:29 pm
content: If that "educational features" is the most important to you then buy the Keysight, otherwise buy the Siglent or Rigol for much better bang per buck. You can return it if you don't like anyway.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2020, 02:31:26 pm
content: Quote from: Dellyjoe on March 16, 2020, 12:04:48 amI recommend you define what signals you want to observe and what measurements you need to make. Without that information any recommendation is guesswork.I recommend you define what other equipment you will need, e.g. PSUs, logic analysers, signal generators, pattern generators - and especially what probes you need. The latter depends on the signals.If you can get the educational discount, the Digilent Analog Discovery has a lot to recommend it. Small, 2 channels (14bit many scopes are 8 bit) + 2*AWG + software gives you a spectrum analyser, bode plots, nyquist diagrams. Plus a simple pattern generator and logic analyser. The 30MHz(?) bandwidth isn't good enough for assuring signal integrity, and it isn't isolated from your computer.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2020, 02:44:38 pm
content: You can get the Rigol MSO5074 for $999 (less the 6% eevblog discount from Tequipment or Saelig). If you buy before the end of March Rigol will give you the Application bundle for all decode and AWG features free; it can also be easily bumped up to 350 MHz bandwidth with a simple firmware upgrade hack. The Rigol Logic Analyzer probe set is outrageously priced at $400 ($360 if bought with scope) but I have developeda cheaper alternative herethat seems to work just fine. The scope is very usable and there is supposed to be new firmware coming out 'soon'.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2020, 02:45:57 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on March 16, 2020, 02:44:38 pmAndthey promised Bode plots in this update.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2020, 04:08:06 pm
content: If you want a real Bode' Plot that is easily printed, you might want to consider the Digilent Analog Discovery 2. You could buy the Rigol DS1054Z for the functions it is good at and use the AD2 for all the advanced features.I have attached a couple of plots

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2020, 05:43:55 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 16, 2020, 02:45:57 pmJust don't hold your breath while you wait!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2020, 05:53:46 pm
content: Quote from: modoran on March 16, 2020, 01:58:29 pmYeah the educational features are the AWG so the choices for the Siglent are a standalone AWG which is always more versatile than inbuilt AWG's or the SAG1021IUSB module for $159 but these are now uprated with an isolated output that improves their usefulness over the earlier nonisolated version.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2020, 06:59:30 pm
content: In my opinion, one never really needs a 'starter scope'. A high end scope used can be very cheap; I have several and over the years have never purchased a brand new unit. My best one today is a 500 MHz 4 channel HP that cost me around $250 on ebay.One doesn't need to worry about the complexities of fancy units; read the manual and you can pretty much figure out how to get simple functions working.The main problem with used gear is that you may not know if it's broken or if you are doing something wrong. That's where the manual helps.By the time you get some waveforms on the screen you will be good enough to use the unit. You get some 10:1 probes and adjust them with the calibrator. Play with dual trace controls. The bandwidth is important only if you are doing high frequency work; it's hard to find a low frequency scope unless you go to antique units.The ones that hook to the computer are overkill for most purposes. Probably best to get an analog unit until the digital functions become important.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2020, 07:06:54 pm
content: Quote from: bob91343 on March 16, 2020, 06:59:30 pmNot really true. If it's your first oscilloscope then a basic model can give you a good idea of what's missing (if anything) and lead you to a more informed purchasing decision on a more expensive model.Or it might turn out that the base model is enough. Cheap DSOs can do an awful lot these days, more than high end models of not so long ago.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2020, 08:00:51 pm
content: Quote from: bob91343 on March 16, 2020, 06:59:30 pmI'm really like to know what HP "high end scope"you got for $250QuoteThe bandwidth is important in any case as it's an important parameter when it comes to aliasing (especially with some of the really old clunkers which had insufficient real-time sample rates to cover the analog BW). As is memory.QuoteIn 2020, at a time where even $300 already buys you a good digital scope which is a real tool and not a toy, you'd need to get your head examined if you got an analog scope as a starter scope while not being completely broke.

author: Dellyjoe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 12:22:27 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 16, 2020, 12:52:51 amAtm I simulate all my work I design in class. We are just talking about basic amplifier circuits. I then wanted to really get to know a scope, so I started to design the circuits in real life, started to order alot of parts. And now I want to be able to do all of this at home.Thank you for your response, I have alot to look at now. I here the Rigols are good and I believe even Dave likes them to.Quote from: tautech on March 16, 2020, 01:10:36 amYa I was looking at this one, I didn't like that you neeeded an exturnal AWG but maybe that isn't so bad after all. I will keep this close in mind as I keep looking, maybe I can also get an educational discount !!Quote from: nctnico on March 16, 2020, 01:45:24 amHmm maybe you're right on the external function generators, and from what tautech was talking about you both seem to be on the same page.Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on March 16, 2020, 02:44:38 pmWow, thank you for showing off some of the discounts I have available. I will call the customer support and ask about the firmware update and see what I can find.Quote from: rstofer on March 16, 2020, 04:08:06 pmThis really grab my eye, atm I don't have alot of desk space, so this might be a good option for me, and at the end of the day, I'm really using it just to learn more about circuits, and maybe down the road I can always get one for my bench when I get a house. Highly considering this option.Everyone thank you for your responses, I'm a little overwhelmed. I will continue to keep you all updated on what I end up doing, It seems like I was spending to much money in the end, so maybe I will look for a cheaper option and then buy something else for my starting electronics"bench". I know everyone wants me to get a traditional scope, I would like to buy one given it will keep me up to date on how to use a lab scope. But I have way more research that I need to do.Thank you for your time,Joe

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 12:26:07 am
content: "Starter scope" is relative, some may need a lot of bandwidth, others may go their entire hobby "career" never needing more than 50MHz, it really depends on what you're trying to do.I assume the HP scope mentioned was "high end" when it was new, my 100MHz Tek 465B could be considered high end in its day, certainly it's far superior to any of the hobbyist scopes of that era and even those crude Heathkit, Eico, etc instruments were expensive at the time.I still think there is some value in at least playing around with an analog scope at some point, I started on analog scopes and the transistion to DSOs was very easy. I still keep the old 465 around for the XY mode but I very rarely use it anymore. I wouldn't pay much for one but they can be had for next to nothing and many things can still be accomplished with one. It has only been in the last decade or so that a typical hobbyist could even hope to afford any DSO. These days they are *crazy* cheap, I still remember lusting after 20 MHz analog scopes that cost around $500 in the 80s which is more like $1200 today, it would have taken me in to adulthood to save up that much of my allowance.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 12:30:37 am
content: Quote from: Dellyjoe on March 17, 2020, 12:22:27 amHonestly I think if I were in your position I'd just pull the trigger and buy the Rigol DS1054z, it's only $349 from Tequipment and that's before the eevblog discount, I just saw a used one sell for $355 on ebay the other day so they hold their value well, if you decide you don't want it you should be able to recover most of your money provided you keep it in good shape. You could buy the Analog Discovery in addition and still be within your budget, and even if you later decide you need a higher end scope the little Rigol is handy as a compact and inexpensive portable you can easy take with you if you need to work on something away from the bench. I'd buy one myself if I didn't already have more scopes than any sane person needs.It's easy to get paralyzed with indecision but this is not a major life decision that needs a ton of research and forethought. It's also easy to get caught up in the religious wars, some people are very passionate about one scope or another but ultimately there are a lot of good instruments that offer a lot of bang for the buck and very few truly bad ones.

author: Dellyjoe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 01:11:08 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 17, 2020, 12:30:37 amHmm you make a good point, I really want a real scope, Nothing like playing with buttons, I also have a old old, scopehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/philips-pm-3218-oscilloscope/msg256027/#msg256027butnevere used it. I will look into the SDS2202X-E. with the external AWG and the Rigol DS1054Z with a AWG, and maybe also look into the Digilent Analog Discovery 2 going to watch daves video on the Digilent Analog Discovery.Thank you,Joe

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 03:38:08 am
content: I think the model of my $250 scope is HP 54542A. Four channels, 500 MHz, many nice digital functions.Digital scopes are fine for someone with a bit of experience. For a beginner, I think analog works better, as much can be intuitive that doesn't go on digital.Let's relax a bit here. This is a list of opinions, not facts. It's a hobby for many of us, so it's not like we are trying to get a product out fast or test production quantities of units.I have been around the block a few times myself, and have owned an electronics business for a number of years. I have used analog and digital and designed a few as well. I have an EE degree from many years ago.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 08:17:25 am
content: Quote from: bob91343 on March 17, 2020, 03:38:08 amI remember that scope model, we had several of them at work (mostly the C version with color LCD) when they were new (they were upper midrange scopes back then, not high end scopes btw), and I owned one personally years ago. They were good scopes back in the early '90s but technology has moved on*a lot*since 1994, and its specs (tiny 32k/ch memory, 512pts FFT, sluggish update rate) can't hold a candle to even a $350 DS1054z of 2020.They also weren't the most reliable scopes either (we had several issues with dying PSUs and ADCs, as well as intermittent channel loss due to the fragile spring connectors for the ADC hybrids).$250 isn't a lot of money and if you mostly need the BW then it's not a bad option but if not then I'd rather buy something else.QuoteThat's a bit like arguing young doctors should first learn about alchemy and blood letting before moving on to modern medicine.For a beginner who doesn't want to become a curator of a test equipment museum (or dabble in voodoo HiFi) and just wants to learn how to handle a scope it doesn't make much sense to learn the operation of a technology which has been obsolete for almost two decades. Instead of wasting time learning how to work around the various limitations of an analog scope and the associated techniques (many of which are inefficient or even counter-productive on a DSO), it makes much more sense to start with something which isn't a technological dead end and use the time to learn how to handle a digital scope properly.Even Dave has stopped recommending analog scopes as starter scopes years ago because it no longer makes sense when even the bottom-of-the-barrel DSOs are so much better.QuoteThat may well be but doesn't change the fact that even a hobbyist is much better served to start into electronics with a digital scope and learn how to handle that than to get an obsolete analog clunker, learn obsolete techniques and then re-learn a large part of it again when finally moving to a DSO. This would be borderline self-flagellation.Because let's face it, the remaining global stock of analog scopes is rapidly shrinking, and it's shrinking because analog scopes are no longer made and pretty much every analog scope has already passed it's design life. So unless one is interested in vintage test gear (some people are) there is no reason why a beginner should start with an obsolete analog clunker.QuoteGood for you.I've started with analog scopes myself (back in the '80s) as a hobby and later used them at work, but when the first digital scopes came on the market I quickly moved on (unlike many of my colleagues, of which many were pretty negative or down-right hostile to digital scopes). I moved on simply because I got vastly more information from the digital scope than any analog scope could give me, which made my work a hole lot easier. And this was back then when DSOs were still rather simple (even more so than your 54542A), but I did spend the time to learn how these scopes work and quickly understood that the methodology I knew from analog scopes won't get me very far, and it paid off. Many of my colleagues struggled to get on with DSOs, because they only saw them as a bad copy of an analog scope, and they treated it like an analog scope, something I have later seen with many other engineers who spend most of their time with analog scopes. Don't get me wrong, many were great EEs and knew their stuff, but they were also completely ignorant as to DSOs or how they work. Because they failed to see that a DSO isn't just a slighly newer analog scope, it's a different kind of tool (a waveform analyzer) which requires pproper handling and techniques to get the most out of it.Later in years when I started doing a lot of hiring we had a little test for applicants where we setup a bench with a scope and a simple circuit or generator producing some pulse trains or even just a square wave, and then asked the applicant to determine some basic signal parameters (i.e. rise/fall times, voltage levels, PRF/PRT and so on, really simple stuff). You could instantly identify the ones that spent most of their time working with analog scopes when the guy started looking for cursors or began counting the graticule units, which was a clear sign that the applicant had very little understanding for how to get information out from a modern DSO. Thankfully in recent years this has become rare as engineers and now even hobbyists (who may well decide to turn the hobby into a career) are learning on digital scopes.So no, I would not recommend for a beginner, no matter if hobbyists or professional, to start with an analog scope, I recommend to get a decent entry-level DSO and spend time to learn how it works (and not use instructions designed for analog scopes when doing so), where its limits are and how to handle it properly to get the most information out of it with the least effort.Even less so when there was never a better time than today for a hobbyist to get a sophisticated digital scope for little money.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 09:05:19 am
content: Wuerstchenhundis giving you good advice, you should take it. The Rigol DS1054Z is a great starter scope and I believe that Rigol gives away all the options except for the bandwidth upgrade now with a new DS1054Z purchase. If you buy a used one that doesn't already have the options enabled, Riglol (not a typo, Google it) is the answer.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 12:13:57 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on March 17, 2020, 09:05:19 amI agree 100%, but they're not much use for doing Bode plots.(which was a basic requirement, stated in the very first post)

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 12:22:14 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 17, 2020, 12:13:57 pmFair enough but I did suggest the MSO5074 which has a bode plot feature coming 'soon'Seriously though, I think the MSO5074 will have great potential and I do believe that the new software will be here in a month or three, it's why I bought one.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 12:38:04 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on March 17, 2020, 12:22:14 pmYep, a decent firmware update would let them own the sub-$2000 market.They're dragging their feet over it though.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 12:44:56 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 17, 2020, 12:13:57 pmRight, I missed that.But there's also the Siglent SDS1104X-E which I believe does support Bode plots. And which is only marginally more expensive than the DS1054z.I have no experience with the Rigol MSO5074 but from what I read it's an OK-ish scope with great hackability but it's also slow. Considering the requirements I'd rather look at the Siglent SDS2kX+ if the budget is there.I'm not sure I'd spend the money for the Keysight DSO-X1kA, simply because it comes with tiny sample memory and lacks many of the functionality found in the Siglent scope while being notably more expensive. The edu variant (EDUX1kA) is even worse with a measly 200kpts memory). Aside from the brand name I can't see any benefit in going for the Keysight scope here.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 01:17:38 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 17, 2020, 12:44:56 pmI always take the word "slow" with a huge pinch of salt unless I've actually used the device myself.There's people out there who'll complain loudly aboutanythingthat's less than pixel-perfect 120fps.The MSO5074 can also be processing 400Mb of RAM if you let it. It's way more RAM than just about anything else out there and it's bound to be "slow" in some circumstances.It's also adjustable - try using 100Mb instead!

author: Dellyjoe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 01:22:44 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on March 17, 2020, 12:22:14 pmWell atm that item is around @1,00 starting and is a bit out of my price range, I also have to get everything else you would need in an electronics lab.

author: Dellyjoe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 01:25:21 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 17, 2020, 12:44:56 pm

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 01:31:22 pm
content: Quote from: Dellyjoe on March 17, 2020, 01:22:44 pmI'd go with the Keysight if it's within budget.The raw numbers in the spec. aren't huge but the ASIC that powers it is awesome and the feature set and user interface are about as good as it gets. It's a 'scope you'll enjoy using every day.PS: The "Ext" input on the Keysight is actually a third, digital channel. Keysight isn't big on promoting that for some reason but it's a real channel. It can display a trace on screen, it can be used for protocol decoding, etc.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 01:34:16 pm
content: Quote from: Dellyjoe on March 17, 2020, 01:25:21 pmThe oscilloscope part is limited compared to the real thing but it can do the job and it's a great little all-round device for learning electronics.For Bode plots it'll beat any of the 'scopes mentioned in this thread.

author: Dellyjoe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 01:41:08 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 17, 2020, 01:31:22 pmYa atm im looking at the Keysight or the Digilent Analog Discovery 2. One does some things better then the other, one is more probable when I'm on the move. Just not sure yet which one, I would want, there are so many options listed above and they still might be a good choice.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 04:15:14 pm
content: Quote from: Dellyjoe on March 17, 2020, 01:25:21 pmThen I would say that the SDS1104X-E would probably be a very good option for you.QuoteA 20GHz scope is great if you need the BW but it will most certainly not even have 1M inputs which you need if you want to fiddle with common passive probes in an electronic circuit. It will have 50 ohms input with a very limited voltage range, and the active probes that are normally used with such scopes are sensitive and easily damaged.A decent entry level bench scope is for sure a much better alternative for learning, it's a lot more robust and if you manage to kill it the complete scope then it will still only be less than 10% of the price of an active probeQuote from: Fungus on March 17, 2020, 01:31:22 pmWell, the MegaZoom ASIC in these scopes offers high update rates but because the way it works it often ends up with only half or 1/4 of the already tiny memory being usable, and this can quickly become a real problem.The user interface of course is good but this makes hardly a big difference on a scope which offers limited features anyways, and it's not that the alternatives from Rigol or Siglent are any worse (even when they offer more functionality). Pretty much all of them are easy to operate.We have a few DSOX1102Gs and DSOX1204Gs we got as freebies when buying bigger Keysight scopes, and while they work as expected I really couldn't see anything that justifies the premium over the Chinese brands (actually, the probes I got with my DS1054z were of better quality than the ones that came with the DSOX1ks). And these are supposedly the >$1k variants which come with all the bells and whistles. The Edu variants are even worse because Keysight took out pretty much anything that makes these scopes useful so they can nickel and dime for upgrades.Offering 100kpts of memory is an absolute joke for a 1GSa/s scope in this day and age.I'm not saying Keysight makes bad scopes (they don't, or otherwise they wouldn't get so much money from us) but for a budget of $1000 or less I can't see a lot reasons why you would pay the premium for the brand name.QuoteYes, that's nice (and you'd expect more 2ch scope have that) but real 4 channels are still a much better option than 2.5 channels.And as far as Bode plotting is concerned, as far as I know the Keysight implementation is rather crude compared with Siglent's Bode plot function.So there's that.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 04:24:58 pm
content: Quote from: Dellyjoe on March 17, 2020, 01:41:08 pmThe Digilent Analog Discovery 2 is a TOY compared to the keysight

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 04:27:18 pm
content: The NEW keysight DSOX1204G has 2Mpts and can do 200,000wfm/s and includes free serial decoding... these specs were changed starting March 1, 2020 but not advertised loudly by Keysight

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 04:35:57 pm
content: A couple of things to consider:A digital scope will have "Single Shot" sweep mode and that feature alone justifies the DSO over the analog scope. Do not underestimate the utility of this mode! Besides the DS1054Z, I have an old Tek 485 350 MHz scope and it is great for bandwidth but the only thing it will do is put squiggly lines on the screen. No measurements, no decoding, no single sweep, no modern features at all. Analog scopes are a memory at this point unless bandwidth is the only criteria. You can get a lot of bandwidth in an old analog scope and, at some point, perhaps that is a reason for a second scope. I absolutely would not buy an analog scope as my first scope.A slow GUI means exactly what? What percentage of time is the GUI being manipulated versus just being viewed? Yes, the Rigol is slow to respond but for every hour I spend viewing, I probably spend a minute twiddling the knobs. The Siglent scopes are said to be better in this regard and, had they been available at the time, I would have probably bought the SDS1104X-E and unlocked it for 200 MHz. It's only $500 and, as shipped, does everything I am likely to need. Being able to unlock 200 MHz is gravy!https://www.amazon.com/Siglent-SDS1104X-oscilloscope-Channels-Standard/dp/B07PV2MQVTBode' plots on a scope are not likely to be very useful. The first thing to look for is logarithmic scaled axes. Annotation capability is important. There is no comparison between a scope Bode' plot and the AD2.Then look at FFT: Scopes can do a pretty decent job of FFT but so can the AD2. It is also true that the AD2 has a much lower bandwidth. Equally true: The DS1054Z FFT is less than impressive.ETA: There is also the issue of screen size. The 27" monitor wins every time!In terms of "learning electronics", there is nothing on the market that comes close to the AD2 at anywhere near the price. The fact that it will fit in the same backpack as a laptop is pretty handy. At the university where my grandson is taking a "Circuits" class, the lab portion is done with AD2s.It is worth the time to download and install Digilent's "Waveforms" software and run in Demo mode. Just look at the number of 'tools' the system provides! There is also an impedance attachment that is pretty handy as well as some breadboard modules with the appropriate edge connector. Yes, there are limitations in terms of voltages and frequencies but for "learning electronics", these are not likely to be an issue.ETA:One thing the AD2 can do that takes expensive probes on any other scope: Taking differential measurements. It is sometimes useful to calculate the current through a component (resistor?) by measuring the voltage drop across it. Suppose you wanted to measure base current versus collector current in a transistor circuit. Having differential input capability is handy in this scenario. This feature goes away if the BNC adapter board is used...

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 05:04:36 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 16, 2020, 01:10:36 amKeysight now includes serial decode for free as well (limited to i2c and UART on EDUX1052 models) and has the best UI design and responsiveness in the market.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 05:46:42 pm
content: Quote from: TK on March 17, 2020, 04:27:18 pmI'm pretty sure the 4ch DSOX1k have always had 2Mpts (only the 1ch non-edu variants come with 1M).And 2M is still pretty small compared to the 14 or more Mpts you get with other scopes in that price bracket.QuoteWow, looks like someone has swallowed the Kool-Aid

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 07:35:49 pm
content: Quote from: TK on March 17, 2020, 05:04:36 pmThe UI on the Keysight sucks. Just look up a video on how to setup decoding. You have to go through a lot of menus to set it up and there is little overview on what you are actually doing! Other oscilloscopes are much easier to drive. I rather wait a little for a single button to do something than having to press 3 buttons which may respond quick but al together need more time & fiddling. I used to own a higher end Agilent scope which (basically) has the same UI and it was not very convenient to use.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 07:39:32 pm
content: For an $800 budget, you can get BOTH the Siglent SDS1104X-E and the AD2. Use each where they best apply.My AD2 is on my "desk" alongside my laptop. My Rigol is on my "bench" behind me. When I play with "learning" circuits, I am much more likely to use the AD2. That said, the Rigol is a really good scope. But I think the Siglent has the advantage of being newer.BUT...Rigol has gone through several upgrades in firmware over the years and the bugs are essentially wiped out. I don't know where Siglent stands on outstanding issues. I suspect there is a thread on this forum that addresses the issues with the SDS1104X-E because it is becoming very popular as an entry level scope.Another thought on the AD2: Multiple monitors allows for various instruments to be open on each. In the context of "learning", it is often handy to have the datasheets on the laptop screen while the measurements are on the 27" monitor. Something like that...If you buy Keysight, you are buying a name. Compare the features and see how it stacks up against something like the 1104. I don't know how that will come out.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2020, 08:07:59 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 17, 2020, 07:35:49 pmWhy not post a link to one?

author: Dellyjoe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 02:35:04 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 17, 2020, 07:39:32 pmYa so with the student discount, the AD2 is amazing price, I will pick that up tomorrow and then i will look into getting a starter scope, as well. I still should be in my price range.I'm really happy for all the help so far.Thank youJoe.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 08:42:19 am
content: Quote from: Dellyjoe on March 18, 2020, 02:35:04 amIt is pleasant to see someone listening to my/our adviceWith the AD, check that you get the BNC socket attachment; that's usually (but not always) what you want to use.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 12:57:45 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 17, 2020, 08:07:59 pmNot a video but the manual can be found here:https://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/N2137-97015.pdf?id=3023290Look up page 313ff. It does take quite a lot steps to setup simple serial decode.The UI looks nice but it's certainly not the simplest menu in such a scope, but then HPAK never had a great hand when it comes to UIs.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 01:44:05 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 18, 2020, 12:57:45 pmIt is not very different to other scopes, even when you don't change all the values, you need to go through the same options to verify they are correct for the signal you are decoding / measuring... except for scopes with touch screen, than can present a window with all the options like the Micsig tablet scopes. Other desktop scopes offer similar UI to Keysight even when touch is available, because they are not touch ONLY scopes and need to have the menus consistent with a button/knob operation.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 01:56:30 pm
content: Quote from: TK on March 18, 2020, 01:44:05 pmThis is where you are very wrong. Just try it and you'll see for yourself. Typically on a scope with two rows of buttons (like GW Instek and Rigol) the menus work much more productive.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 02:13:19 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 18, 2020, 01:56:30 pmSo you need to press 1-2 extra button to access a set of options... does it make a bad UI?2 sets of buttons (horizontal + vertical) means less screen space for useful information

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 02:23:22 pm
content: No, the size of the screen is the same. The buttons are typically hidden once they are no longer needed. And pressing 2 or 3 buttons extra gets cumbersome if you have to do it a lot. Also a less clear menu structure doesn't help. With two rows you have a main menu and the sub-menus visible at the same time. Much easier to work with.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 02:56:29 pm
content: Quote from: TK on March 18, 2020, 01:44:05 pmNo, it's not very different to other scopes but it's also not exactly better, which was one of the claims made about the DSOX1kA in this thread.QuoteYes, all these (non-touch) bottom-of-the-barrel scopes have somewhat similar UIs because they have a similar low amount of functionality.So now that we established that the Keysight DSOX1k UI isn't any better than other comparable scopes (and, in fact, in places is even slightly worse), and you said yourself that these UIs are all pretty much the same. In the light os this you might perhaps re-think your prior claim:Quote from: TK on March 17, 2020, 05:04:36 pm(emphasis mine).Look, I understand you like Keysight scopes, but frankly it's a bit silly to try to talk up some artificial superiority in something which at the end of the day is just another bottom-of-the-barrel scope which, like all other bottom-of-the-barrel scopes, will do their job just fine. Personally, I've seen little special in the freebie DSOX1ks we have, and certainly nothing which would make me spend over a grand for it. If they weren't free we wouldn't even had them, and last time I checked one was now sitting on a cupboard behind a project manager's desk as a dust collector.But hey, if you believe the $500 or so premium over other scopes is worth it having the bragging right of the Keysight brand, by all means go for it.Economically, and based on the stated requirements, the most sensible choice of a scope for the thread starter is the Siglent SDS1104X-E.

author: Dellyjoe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 03:53:42 pm
content: Well Today I ordered what some call my Toy, It was the Analog Discovery 2, with the student pricing of save 37% and with another 10% off, it was a deal I couldn't pass up. With all the functions that this system has it will be perfect for my school program and hobby work I plan to do, and with a screen of 38 inches vs, 7 inches it was hard to pass up. I also travel a lot and i'm on the move and now I can take this were ever I need to go.For all of you out there that are like omg why did he buy this device it isn't even a scope, I understand your point of view. I will be looking into getting a scope with the 500 dollars I have left, I will just put it on a back burner.Thank you for all your input, It didn't go to waste I can tell you that.Thank you,Joe

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 03:59:10 pm
content: IMHO the AD2 is a good buy for the educational price. Even if you get a benchtop oscilloscope at some point I'm sure there will be use for the AD2.

author: Shadders
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 04:12:41 pm
content: Quote from: Dellyjoe on March 18, 2020, 03:53:42 pmHi,I looked at the package - $299 with the BNC adapter board for 30MHz bandwidth. The thing against this for me was that you need a PC to run the device. I have a Picoscope which has gone faulty, first the channel A jfet, and now the other channel too - they are a dual jfet package for the front end.The Picoscope has a maximum input voltage of +/- 20volts, and the Analog Discovery 2 has +/- 25volts. I think for the picoscope i inadvertently sampled a voltage greater than 20volts without the 10x on the scope lead, causing the channel A fault.I am testing my amplifiers and they have a bench supply of +/- 30volts, so i do need a rugged scope. The Rigol and Siglent have higher voltage protection (so it seems from the datasheet), so for me, this will be my purchase - higher bandwidth, higher voltage, 4 channels which allows for the ability to couple with an AWG for bode plots etc. Also, again the PC requirement i thought was great, but it is a real pain to use if you main laptop is Linux etc., with a bench scope - it can go anywhere with immediate setup.Regards,Shadders.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 04:19:38 pm
content: I am easily amused by a 10k resistor and a 0.1 ufd capacitor.Arranged as a low pass filter, here is the schematic and Bode' Plot.We know that when Xc = 10k the capacitive reactance is equal to the resistance and this is the -3 dB point and the phase shift should be -45 degrees.Xc = 1 / (2*PI*f*C) => 10,000*2*PI*(0.1*10-6) = 1/f = 0.0063 therefore f=159 Hz. This is the -3dB point. The plot is pretty close! Remember, real parts have tolerances...I have attached the plot and an LTspice schematic - just a drawing, it won't simulate as drawn.Watch this space, I'll be adding more experiments with my favorite components..

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 04:29:12 pm
content: Quote from: Shadders on March 18, 2020, 04:12:41 pmAnd that's why I don't like *1/*10 switchable probes; sooner or later the switch will be in the "other" position.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 04:56:38 pm
content: Same exact circuit as above but this time we'll look at the Forced Response. We hit the circuit with a squarewave and plot the voltage rise and fall curves.The Time Constant, Tau, of an RC circuit: Tau = R*C or, for this circuit, 104*10-7= 10-3= 1msWe also know that in 6*Tau seconds, the capacitor will reach 99.85% of full value.The charging equation is Vout = Vin * (1-e-(t/Tau)) For this example, we let t/Tau = 6 to display the entire charge and discharge interval.For the signal frequency, we want the output high for 6*Tau and low for 6*Tau so 12ms. f=1/0.012 = 83 Hz. The waveform is offset such that the output plot goes from 0V up to 1V.I put a cursor at 1ms (1 Tau) and the output is 65%. It should be 63.2% so, given tolerances, close enough.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 05:46:20 pm
content: Same circuit as above except: Lift the 1- lead from Ground and connect it to the junction of the resistor and capacitor. This shows the utility of differential inputs, nothing about Channel 1 is connected to ground. What we do here is measure the voltage across the resistor to get the current waveform as the current flows through the resistor and capacitor. This differential measurement feature of the AD2 is far better than the A-B approach required by most scopes. Alas, it won't work if you use the BNC adapter with scope probes. As long as you use the fly leads, differential measurements are available.Bottom line: We are measuring the voltage across the capacitor and the current through the capacitor simultaneously.We hit the circuit with a 1 kHz sine wave with 0V offset and 500mV amplitude.The plot shows the current waveform in Orange and the voltage waveform in Blue. The cursors show the current leading the voltage by 90 degrees. ELI theICEman, the current (I) leads the voltage (E) in a capacitive (C) circuit. What I wanted to show is the 90 degree phase shift and, since 1 kHz was a period of 1 ms, 90 degrees would be 1/4 of that period or 0.25 ms (250 us) Graphically, I get 245.5 us which is close enough.That -90 degree phase shift is why we draw capacitive reactance negative on the 'j' axis, inductive reactance positive on the 'j' axis and resistance horizontally on the 'real' axis. The vector sum of all these vectors is the impedance of the circuit which has both magnitude and phase.These 3 experiments take just two components and I can spend an entire morning playing with just these 3 experiments. I truly wish I had had something like this when I was in college. Alas, the slide rule was king and the HP 35 didn't come out until the end of my Junior year. I couldn't afford it anyway...As I said above, I'm easily amused by two components.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 06:29:07 pm
content: Just for giggles, I decided to plot the impedance of the 0.1 ufd capacitor used above. I have the Impedance Adapter so it's pretty easy. We expect the impedance to be around 10k Ohms at around 160 Hz (see above) and we get that value around 164 Hz, close enough.I haven't spent much time with the adapter, I have no idea what it can do beyond the obvious.https://store.digilentinc.com/impedance-analyzer-for-analog-discovery/ETA: It is not necessary to have the Impedance Adapter to use the Impedance feature. The Help file shows wiring schemes that will work just as well. One thing missing is automatic selection of the resistor. The Adapter does this by magic, the stand-alone approach requires the user to select a resistor from the table on the Help page.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 06:54:41 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 18, 2020, 04:29:12 pmThe bare AD2 has very limited voltage range and it's worth making sure to only use flyleads on low voltage circuits, like those powered by the internal power supplies. For "learning" circuits, it is seldom necessary to go outside of +-15V for op amps and even then, the signal is usually +-10V.Beyond that level, the BNC adapter can be used with standard scope probes but as pointed out, 1x-10x may not be a good way to go. It might be better to find a pair of 10x only. My DS1054Z is rated for a maximum of 300V RMS so 1x may not be much of a problem but one of these days I'm going to buy those 10x only probes. Edit: I just ordered 2 of the 3904-2 probes from Probe Master - these are 10x only and will primarily be used with the AD2.I also lose differential inputs when using the BNC adapter and this is a really big deal.https://store.digilentinc.com/bnc-adapter-for-analog-discovery/

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 07:53:34 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 18, 2020, 06:54:41 pmI agree with all that, and will confess to being a little jittery when I use a low-end USB scope on anything with more than, say +-12V around, or when I'm not completely sure of the potential to which I attach the probe shield.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 08:09:46 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 18, 2020, 07:53:34 pmOne thing I often do is to connect my USB toys into a powered hub. It's not total ground isolation but at least any load "oopsies" won't imapct the laptop. I don't do SMPSs so I don't have a voltage problem but I could still go overcurrent.Bottom line: THINK! Sketch out what you are doing if it is anythng above trivial and maybe even then. See if you can sketch the grounds! Include the scope grounds.

author: Dellyjoe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 01:26:05 am
content: Quote from: Shadders on March 18, 2020, 04:12:41 pmShadders I got that package for 213 dollars, the AD2 is only 180 for the EDU price.Just find a kid to buy it for you and give him 10 dollars.Joe

author: Dellyjoe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 01:31:14 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 18, 2020, 06:54:41 pmWhat do you mean when you say I also lose differential inputs when using the BNC adapter and this is a really big deal.

author: Dellyjoe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 01:34:38 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 18, 2020, 08:09:46 pmSo you are saying I shouldn't use 1/10x probes, iss that b/c of the switch? and the other reason is b/c the AD2 is low voltage, so when probing lets say a 50v DC voltage I would need a 10x probe to bring the voltage down to 5v? which is then safe for the AD2

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 01:59:17 am
content: Quote from: Dellyjoe on March 19, 2020, 01:34:38 amI think the AD2 is pretty fragile compared to a normal scope (50V (probably peak to peak) vs 300V RMS and I would hate to lose mine due to a screw-up. OTOH, I don't work with voltages outside of +-15V and, more often than not, I'm only working with the internal +-5V supplies.Probes only come into play when you use the BNC Adapter so, most of the time, when using fly-leads, you need to be very careful. I might just make it a practice that when not using the internal supplies, for whatever reason, use the BNC adapter and 10x probes. Always! That isn't much of a constraint considering you are using probes anyway. Just use the right ones!I bought a pair of the 3904-2 probes specifically for the AD2https://probemaster.com/3900-series-scope-probes-100-mhz/It all comes down to what you expect to do. You could take a pair of 1x/10x probes and disable the switch (a wee bit of epoxy?) to prevent them from being set to 1x.Protect that AD2! You might also need to pay attention to the digital leads if you run into some awkward voltage level. It seems unlikely but maybe it could be a problem.If you don't know what voltage to expect, use a DMM first.I really like the AD2 but it's expensive, I don't want to mess it up!

author: Dellyjoe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 02:03:38 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 19, 2020, 01:59:17 amok so i did get the BNC adapter, and i brought two probes from there website I believe they are 1/10x, so i should be able to go up to 150VDC right? and atm the probes you have are a little out of my price range, maybe when the tax return comes in I can get that.Joe

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 02:09:34 am
content: I wouldn't try connecting anything high voltage on a scope that is connected to the laptop or PC through USB, and by high voltage I mean mains 120V or even 50V. Laptops are not connected to ground.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 02:10:08 am
content: Quote from: Dellyjoe on March 19, 2020, 01:31:14 amDue to code requirements, all non-current carrying metallic surfaces are to be tied to earth ground (or double insulated or some other limited exceptions). That's why the barrel of the BNC connector is connected to earth ground through the power cord of a normal scope. The same logic applies to the BNC adapter board, the barrel of the connector is connected to earth ground (when possible) through the USB cable and and on through the PC power supply. Well, if one side of the scope channel is tied to ground, you can only take measurements relative to ground with the probe tip. You can play math games and use 2 channels to get a differential reading but that's about it.Having both sides of the scope channel float means I can measure the voltage drop across a component even if one end isn't grounded as in the current measurement I mentioned above. Now, the AD2 voltage range is limited, that's true, but differential probes for a regular scope are PRICEY!Differential measurements come up all the time and the fact that the AD2 can do them with no issues is a really big deal.Here is a very popular video that explains the problem of grounded BNC connectors:https://youtu.be/xaELqAo4kkQ

author: Dellyjoe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 02:17:51 am
content: Quote from: TK on March 19, 2020, 02:09:34 amwhat if it is your computer desktop and or a laptop grounded?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 02:18:10 am
content: Quote from: Dellyjoe on March 19, 2020, 02:03:38 amWell, just epoxy the switch and call it a day!I shudder at the thought of using the AD2 at those voltage levels.I think the Impedance Adapter is worthwhile and the Breadboard Adapter is particularly useful. It doesn't show in the picture but you do get a solderless breadboard with the PCB.https://store.digilentinc.com/breadboard-adapter-for-analog-discovery/Word to the wise: When you stick the breadboard down, stay away from the connector so you don't obscure the silkscreen labels. The breadboard will be outside the lines but I think not having the labels is pretty poor. There's a reason I know this!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 02:21:44 am
content: Quote from: Dellyjoe on March 19, 2020, 02:17:51 amWatch Dave's video! The probe ground is a nightmare in the making! I emphasized the "learning" environment for the AD2 and I certainly wasn't thinking about voltages anywhere near 50V DC. You can see where my experiments were run at 1V peak to peak. I like low voltages!

author: magicsmoke
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 02:25:51 am
content: Quote from: Dellyjoe on March 18, 2020, 03:53:42 pmHow did you get the extra 10% discount?

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 02:35:48 am
content: Quote from: Dellyjoe on March 19, 2020, 02:17:51 amI am not an expert on power supplies, I think laptop power supplies are switching and you have mains earth up to the brick, but I don't know if it continues to the laptop as many of them has barrel dc jack with only 2 pins...

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 03:38:48 am
content: Quote from: TK on March 17, 2020, 04:27:18 pmSorry, it might not be the best thread to ask this question but, since you brought it up, do you happen to know more about this?Is Keysight selling an oscilloscope with twice the memory and free serial decoding under the same name and for the same price it sold before March 1st, 2020? Are the new features part of a firmware update or only meant for the "new" model sold to new customers?

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 03:54:32 am
content: Quote from: Caliaxy on March 19, 2020, 03:38:48 amhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-dsox1200x-and-edux1052-scopes-with-extended-capabilities/msg2948718/#msg2948718

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 04:38:56 am
content: Thanks, I had missed that.Hmm... In short, it looks like Keysight offers the serial protocol decoder for free to the new buyers (through a firmware update), but not to thesuckerscustomers who bought the scope before March 1st, who would have to pay a little extra $308 to get the same thing.OP, there is something to be learned from this...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 09:20:32 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 19, 2020, 01:59:17 amIt's designed for students so maybe not as much as you think. Just stay away from high voltages.Quote from: Dellyjoe on March 19, 2020, 01:34:38 amYes.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 01:04:28 pm
content: Quote from: Shadders on March 18, 2020, 04:12:41 pmThe Waveforms software even runs on a Raspberry Pi. It has run on Mac, Linux and Windows for a long time. I have it running on the Pi, just for giggles.You really can't compare portability between a bench scope and the AD2. In terms of size/volume of the device itself, the AD2 wins easily. Since the gadget is designed for students, it assumes the existence of a laptop. The AD2 and laptop fit easily in a backpack. Not so for something like the DS1054ZI did three experiments above. I'm waiting for the day that a bench scope can produce anything like those images. Not going to happen! But those experiments were more for "learning", not production.The bench scope and the AD2 are two completely different devices with two overlapping areas of application.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 01:20:08 pm
content: Quote from: Dellyjoe on March 19, 2020, 01:34:38 amActually having a 1:1 / 1:10 switchable probe with the AD2 is better. It will add extra range to the AD2. Still you'll have to be careful not to exceed the maximum voltage but the risk of doing damage is low. People here are forgetting that even in 1:1 mode a typical probe will have several hundred Ohms of resistance between the tip and the oscilloscope input. The Testec probes I have here measure 430 OHm and that is sufficient to offer some protection.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 01:25:56 pm
content: Quote from: Dellyjoe on March 18, 2020, 03:53:42 pmThose who consider the AD2 a toy haven't spent any time using one. On the issue of applied voltage and bandwidth, the AD2 loses the comparison but when you toss in a two channel AWG, 16 digital IOs and a raft of software defined tools, the bench scope comes up short. Both have a place and there is some overlap in application area but, for "learning" there is no comparison if we toss in things like money. Sure, I have a really nice Siglent AWG on my bench and, believe me, it is a very nice tool but when I want to sweep a frequency range and get a logarithmic plot, the AD2 does a better job. Look at the plots above, especially the phase shift example, where I have added a little annotation to the waveforms. Write back when an entry level scope and AWG can produce such a thing for anywhere near the cost.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 01:34:50 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 19, 2020, 01:20:08 pmProbes for this bandwidth can be had for $5. That's reason enough to have at least one x10 fixed probe around the place.

author: Dellyjoe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 01:36:12 pm
content: Quote from: magicsmoke on March 19, 2020, 02:25:51 amhttps://blog.digilentinc.com/sharing-the-burden-of-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR354uym4WA9icTkBSBuKnFXetByUyuYkueQfFI5tZkZJsQS_qu_Mdqup3QSee link above

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 01:38:02 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 19, 2020, 01:20:08 pmThis whole discussion about 1x/10x probes is just a bunch of engineers transferring their paranoia (well deserved) on to newcomers. Of course the 1x probes are workable but the user needs to "Think!"; 10x probes provide a little more protection. Not that probe bandwidth is an issue when using the AD2 but 10x probes often have better characteristics.The AD2 will allow the user to specify probe attenuation from -10x up to 100x. It's in the flyout menu behind the "Gear" on each Channel dialog. I have never had occasion to go looking for this setting but it's right where it should be.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 03:22:04 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 19, 2020, 01:38:02 pm"Think" isn't relevant when the switch has beenaccidentallymoved to the wrong position, without noticing. Usually that just means time wasted trying to understand the waveform.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 03:25:31 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 19, 2020, 03:22:04 pmOr when somebody's been near your bench while you were in the bathroom...Or the cleaning person had a look at it...Or you have kids...Or...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 03:28:56 pm
content: I can't figure out why almost all of the Chinese probes are 1x/10x switchable. I can't think of a time I've ever deliberately set one to 1x, if I want a 1x probe I just connect the scope directly with a length of coax.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 03:33:09 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 19, 2020, 03:28:56 pmBut then you don't have a ground clip and pin to poke around in a circuit. Also the resistance of a probe wire does mitigate effects of impedance mismatch.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 04:12:13 pm
content: True, although it's very rare that I need to do that and usually when I do it's a circuit that is expecting a 50 ohm load anyway.Either way I would rather have an entirely separate 1x probe for those rare occasions I need it rather than a switchable probe that can get bumped into the wrong position, or the switch can get flaky. Usually I glue it in the 10x position when I've had to use one of those probes.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 06:59:01 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 19, 2020, 03:28:56 pmCost.Higher price instruments are shipped with better probes.QuotePSU ripple measurements are the most common requirement for 1x probes especially when probing SMPS where the frequency of ripple is most likely beyond what a DMM in AC mode can resolve.Siglent do a few fixed 10x probeshttps://int.siglent.com/upload_file/user/siglent_probe_datasheet201908.pdf

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 07:18:06 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 19, 2020, 06:59:01 pmThis makes no sense. You can also buy good quality 1x/10x switchable probes. I always buy the switchable types just because it is handy to have.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 08:09:48 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 19, 2020, 07:18:06 pmThen look at the retail pricing for them, cost is reality even if it makes no sense to you.We all know P6100 1x/10x probes can be bought for ~$6 ea and an equivalent P510 from Siglent is $10 but start going up in BW and the prices jump significantly.QuoteTo a point I agree as 1x is handy to have for the additional sensitivity however with modern DSO's now offering 500uV/div input sensitivity the need for 1x probes is much reduced.Much of the market sector I deal with are hobbyists and novices and as such many are not aware of probe loading in 1x therefore every unit I ship out probes and inputs are set to 10x and probes compensated for the best first impressions and not 'my circuit doesn't behave correctly when I connect one of your probes !'

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 08:15:11 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 19, 2020, 08:09:48 pmBut it doesn't mean 1x/10x probes are cheap by definition. That is just wrong no matter what.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 09:07:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 19, 2020, 08:15:11 pmI'm guessing that switchable probes cost almost the same to produce and they sell more so that's what they manufacture.(most people probably think they're getting somethingextraover a non-switchable probe when they go online to buy one)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 09:11:42 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 19, 2020, 09:07:20 pmI think most people are just sensible and want to look at small signals using a probe.

author: Mortymore
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 10:11:38 pm
content: I have 4 1x/10x probes that to me, are far from cheap, since if bought new, they probably cost as much as Rigol 1054Z. They are 2x Tek P2200 and 2x Tek P2220But I can't recall the last time they were set to x1

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:09:34 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 19, 2020, 09:11:42 pmWe can do a poll if you want but I think most people would have to think hard about when they last used a probe in x1 mode.(and this forum wouldn't represent the "real world" anyway...)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 12:21:42 pm
content: You don't have to use something often in order to be useful. I use my (high end) logic analyser about once a year on average but when I use it, it solves a complicated problem quickly. A switchable probe is the same. It doesn't cost more or less compared to a non-switchable probe but it offers the flexibility when you need it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 01:25:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 20, 2020, 12:21:42 pm...and all the danger+confusing readings when you don't.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 01:36:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 20, 2020, 12:21:42 pmThe few occasions where I need a *1 probe, I use a BNC leads: one terminated in 4mm banana sockets, and another terminated in croc clips.That avoids the dangers of the switch being in the wrong position, and is perfectly satisfactory for the low frequency signals. For me, the crude terminations match the circuits/points I want to probe.

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 01:51:54 pm
content: Are the "dangers" really that much of a concern? I don't see too many people complaining about the dangers of their DMMs having current measuring capability. One could accidentally leave the probes in the wrong position while measuring voltage.And really, when was the last time you actually measured current, anyway?Rather than epoxy shut the current probe plug on my DMM because I can't buy one that only measures voltage, I just quickly check to make sure my probes are in the proper position before I take a measurement. Just like I do with my 1X/10X oscilloscope probes.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 02:08:32 pm
content: Some DMMs have lighted sockets that indicate where the probes should be plugged in for different measurements (Volts, Amps). I think it is a very interesting solution to avoid mistakes.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 02:22:19 pm
content: Quote from: BillB on March 20, 2020, 01:51:54 pmThey're something to consider. Most DMMs have high interrupting capacity fuses on the current scales for that very reason. I have seen the remains of a Simpson 260 V-O-M when the probes were applied to 480VAC with the knob on a non-voltage scale. It simply exploded with bits and pieces in the operators chest.QuoteAt issue here is the VERY limited voltage range of the AD2. It's on the order of +-25V (+-50V differential) whereas the DS1054Z is 300VRMS. x1 is perfectly reasonable on the Rigol, how many times does someone probe 300VRMS? But the AD2 is much less forgiving and an extra bit of protection, x10 probes, is worth providing. The AD2 is a "learning" tool and this also includes the possibility of operator error.It all comes down to opinion. Clearly, x1 probes can be used safely as long as the user thinks carefully about what voltage is about to be measured. Besides, when the flyleads are used, and for me that is just about always, the wire is x1 by definition. I just don't tend to use higher voltages. I always shudder when a newcomer starts talking about probing 'mains' with a brand new scope. What's with it about probing mains? How about a nice little common emitter amplifier with a 2N2222A and Vcc=5V. Maybe a simple low pass circuit? Most of the course in AC circuits can be done with a resistor and capacitor or, for the advanced stuff, 3 resistors and 3 capacitors.On the subject of "education", Digilent has a Real Analog course complete with homework and lab experiments which is based on the AD2https://reference.digilentinc.com/learn/courses/real-analog/startKhan Academy has an Electrical Engineering track (a parallel effort to the math topics)https://www.khanacademy.org/science/electrical-engineering#introduction-to-ee

author: Shadders
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 02:34:18 pm
content: Quote from: BillB on March 20, 2020, 01:51:54 pmHi,I have done it accidentally with my Picoscope which i purchased in 2005 at a cost of £1k. Channel A was affected, and the dual JFET on the front end means a few weeks ago Channel B has now failed.It is too easy to do, and you only have to do it once. As far as i am concerned, the current DSO are brilliant.Regards.Shadders.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 02:35:10 pm
content: Quote from: TK on March 20, 2020, 02:08:32 pmOr the display flashes or a buzzer sounds off... DMMs have come a long way. Even so, if the leads are clipped into a circuit and the function switch is subsequently turned, an 'oopsie' can still occur. Nothing is foolproof!Scopes measure only voltage versus time. The physical interpretation of the waveform is up to the user.The AD2 does measure current with its differential input. Just measure the voltage across a resistor, regardless of whether one end is grounded. Scopes stumble with this kind of measurement. Either you buy a differential probe or you use A-B mode and two channels. Using two channels for a differential measurement might be rather limiting on a two channel scope.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 02:41:06 pm
content: Quote from: BillB on March 20, 2020, 01:51:54 pmIt depends on what you work on.Me? I'd be perfectly happy if my 4-channel 'scope came with two switchable and two non-switchable probes in the box.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 04:09:55 pm
content: Quote from: Shadders on March 20, 2020, 02:34:18 pmBut did this happen with a 1x probe or a direct cable connection? Even with a 1x probe it will take a high voltage to do damage unless it is a crappy one which uses regular coax instead of resistive wire.

author: Shadders
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 04:16:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 20, 2020, 04:09:55 pmHi,Yes - was a 1x/10x probe where i must have not switched to 10x. The Picoscope states +/- 20volts, and i was examining the broadband line which is -50volts. The probe were the ones from Picoscope- coaxial i believe.Regards,Shadders.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 04:42:35 pm
content: Interesting. I'd expect Picoscope to deliver quality probes with their products. In the end damage is done by the amount of energy pushed into a system. The series resistance of a probe should help to prevent damage. Also don't forget that inputs also need to be able to deal with ESD.