Precision Screwdriver Advice - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: TorqueRanger
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 03:09:33 am
content: The other day I use a set of Kobalt screwdriver set in the pic below ... I really liked them because they where nice to use and seemed to be made of quality metal ...But what do you guys think of the set for the price?http://www.lowes.com/pd_115462-86580-SF3B_4294857616__?productId=3276987&Ns=p_product_avg_rating|1

author: Kilroy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 03:51:17 am
content: It's just a personal thing, but I don't really like the idea of changing bits all the time, so that would disqualify that set for me on that point alone.The screw drivers I use are made by Wiha and find them to be excellent value. It's no fun when your screw driver tips don't seat well in the screw head, twist out and ruin the fastener. That only has to happen a few times and even an expensive set of tools seems like a bargain.Life can be aggravating enough. Go ahead and do something outrageous...treat yourself to a really nice set of screw drivers. You're probably worth it.

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 04:29:44 am
content: Unfortunately I do not know the product above and I also can not see the price of the set.If you look for precision screw drivers, I highly recommend to have a look at Wiha, Wera or PBswiss. They are not cheap, but the best quality I know of. In my opinion they are worth every penny and therefore a very good investment.

author: grenert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 05:52:31 am
content: I completely agree with the above. Of all of the tools I've used, where I can really tell the difference between good and bad ones is with screwdrivers. Ratchet sockets are second.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 06:03:55 am
content: +1 for Wiha. Asgrenertmentioned, you can notice the difference between good screwdrivers, pliers, and cutters.I use the Drive-Loc series (interchangeable bits that allow the user to set the length, and won't slide back up inside the handle).System 6 version example (http://www.kctoolco.com/Drive-Loc-VI-Security-Torx-6-Piece-Set-p/28197.htm)System 4 version (http://www.kctoolco.com/System-4-ESD-Safe-Drive-Loc-IV-12-Piece-Set-p/26985.htm)I liked the System 4 enough I bought a System 6 set as well, and added a bunch of additional blades (mostly security profiles, as I'm seeing more and more of them).@Kilroy:As per changing the blades all of the time, there's a simple solution; get more than one handle (say 2, maybe 3, as I found that will cover what's needed most of the time). Saves space and weight, if that matters (incredibly useful for field work IMHO, which is another reason I bought them). Cost wise, I found this method was actually less expensive than separate drivers for what I needed (based on US sources). YMMV though.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 07:07:39 am
content: Those $15 ~15 piece kits are ok to have several sets of lying around the house, but I would prefer to keep them out of the shop and the tool chest. My recommendation is to buy a super premium set of the most commonly used drivers -- a few sizes of phillips, flat, and possibly hex. You will use these all the time, and want something good. Then get one of those cheap 50 part kits with interchangeable bits. You won't use most of these very often, but it is nice to always have the right bit. You may also need a cheap set of fixed torx and t-torx drivers to be able to reach recessed screws. Most interchangeable bit systems can't reach very deep.The #2 phillips is the probably the most important to have a really high quality driver. This is one of the most common sizes for self-tapping and wood screws, and phillips is the most prone to cam out. On the other hand, a good hex driver is nice to have but even a crappy one works pretty well.

author: flolic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 07:53:34 am
content: Quote from: quarks on January 23, 2013, 04:29:44 amAfter I tried many different screwdriver sets, I found that Wera tools are best thing that I am aware of. They are made of super quality steel, and tip geometry and precision is outstanding. That can best be seen if you compare smaller Phillips sizes (PH000, PH00) to other/cheaper brands. PH00 is my my most used screwdriver, and low quality tool will very soon show all of its weaknesses (and strip screw head).

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 08:18:32 am
content: I think you should always try to buy the best tools you can afford.I found this saves money in the long run.Below is what I use for electronic and electrician work.

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 08:22:24 am
content: i agree on that wiha system 4/6 tools however i managed to damage the tip of a ph1 system 6 balde on the same day i got them in my hand looks like the screw was a bit harder material which is odd

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 08:26:12 am
content: +1 for wiha I use everydayI also have some bost screwdrivers that are nice, but not as rock solid as the wihathey are also cheaper : count some 3 EUR for a bost PH00 and 9 EUR for the same wiha.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 09:25:00 am
content: Quote from: M. András on January 23, 2013, 08:22:24 amThis isn't the first time I've heard of a QC issue, but it doesn't seem to be that common (one other, is that the set came with a broken tip).I have noticed a few don't fit quite as tight as I'm accustomed to (recent System 6 blade purchases), but they do seem to work just fine so far. Haven't stripped anything yet, and the tip isn't being torn up either. Not a lot of hours on them yet though.

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 09:37:16 am
content: apart from that the cheap chinese sets fits perfectly to some screws this set wiggle a bit, but i use the hey bit holder often so i dont care if i tear those low cost bits i have approx 400 of them everywhere better then damage an expensive blade, as for farnell sending me 2units of 3/4 torx for the system 4 set instead 1unit 3/4 and 1 unit 5/6didnt brother to send them back perfect for phones

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 09:46:55 am
content: All the brands mentioned here are excellent. Felo is another one that you could look at...http://german-hand-tools.com/Felo-Products.html

author: cybergibbons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 10:24:40 am
content: Quote from: quarks on January 23, 2013, 08:18:32 amI love my Wera Screwdriver - I have the same green handled precision set, some of the stainless grey handles, and the insulated ones.All hobbyists should have PH0 and PH1. So many times people only have PZ0 and PZ1, and they are not the same! Nearly all electronics are still PH.

author: Kevin.D
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 10:47:07 am
content: quote :- "All hobbyists should have PH0 and PH1. So many times people only have PZ0 and PZ1, and they are not the same! Nearly all electronics are still PH."Are you sure about that ?. I just done a quick survey of my "saved screw collection" which are a load of old screws that I took from electronics devices,and the ratio is like about 66% philips 33% pozidrive in them I would say.ejjefrey said :- " The #2 phillips is the probably the most important to have a really high quality driver. This is one of the most common sizes for self-tapping and wood screws, and phillips is the most prone to cam out. "It's almost all pozidrive here for wood screw .Pozidrive number 2 is easily the most widley used , perhaps it's different in America than in Europe .One of the main difference between them I think is Phillips are designed to cam out so you don't ruin the screw head ,pozi are designed to grip the screw head stronger .if you use pozidrive on phillips screw ,or phillips on pozi screw then you'll probably chew up allot of screw heads or screw driver ends .

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 10:53:55 am
content: Pozidrive/PZ isn't that common in the US right now. For wood screws, Roberston/Square Drive is more common here vs. PZ (can't even recall seeing PZ wood screws in a store). Torx is making inroads as well.

author: Kevin.D
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 11:16:52 am
content: It's just the opposite here in Europe (UK) ,take a look at somewhere likewww.screwfix.comor a large hardware store over here and you can see thay are almost all PZ heads ,cant even see a phillips head type screw in the wood screw or self tappers sections there .Wonder what type cross screw heads the Asian manufactures are mostly using. ?

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 11:18:20 am
content: besides the "normal" screw drivers I also find these very handy/helpfull(top: electrician set to go, middle: set with security bits, bottom: great lifter/desolder help)

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 11:27:10 am
content: Make sure you get some screwdrivers with long thin shafts. Nothing is more annoying than not being able to actually reach the screw. I find this is often a problem with screwdrivers that use bits, they are so big they don't fit inside sunken screw holes (look at Dave's teardown of the Apple computer to see what I mean).

author: Homer J Simpson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 01:38:47 pm
content: Another vote for Wiha.I have this one. You do have to change bits but the quality of the bits is excellent.The picture is a little deceiving. It is a small set for precision work.Wiha 75093http://www.amazon.com/Wiha-75093-Handles-Slotted-Phillips/dp/B002PJ3IYE/ref=pd_rhf_ee_s_cp_1

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 01:49:48 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on January 23, 2013, 11:27:10 am+1Some of the interchangeables can manage this due to the longer bit depth. For security bits, there are 6"/150mm long bits (seen them sold as Neiko brand).

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 05:42:44 pm
content: Kobalt is a house Lowe's brand of medium range quality. The trick to precision tools is equally the precision workmanship of the driver tip and the metal alloy used. Applying a lot of torque to the big handle won't matter if finely cut tips deform so the metal must be good quality as there is not much mass in small tool heads; that why you can find 'precision' tools as low as $3/setin the USA that appear to look good, until you look at them closely and see the tips cut haphazardly or apply some torque to them and they snap.Willie Hahn, aka Wiha, and many of similar quality, make their precision tools typically with chromium, molybdenum +/- vanadium steel to add the special quality to the tool, so a set of 7 Wiha drivers will run about $40, but they are truly made to take the torque for the handle they are designed to fit and are cut perfectly to fit all the screws they were designed to twist.IMHO Wihas have never failed to fit, but rarely, the cheapo tools will not fit a supposed proper screw, that's the main difference, and when you twist a stubborn screw, most often the cheap drivers either can't do it or deform, whereas Wihas will stay true. One won't know experience this until you've open quite a number of cases, and stubborn screws are often found in soiled or contaminated devices used in commercial or military settings rather than personal devices that are not as heavily used or abused.Quote from: TorqueRanger on January 23, 2013, 03:09:33 am

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 08:13:54 pm
content: Your mileage seems to vary then. Wood screws around here tend to be Ph2 - both the flat head utility screws and the conical sink head wood screws. Though the latter ones seem to be migrating to Torx these days. Sheet metal self tapping screws are Pz2 as a rule.

author: cybergibbons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2013, 08:56:47 pm
content: I find it very rare to find PZ on electronic equipment, yet I haven't seen a PH screw on any wood or furniture for years now.

author: Christe4nM
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2013, 03:32:06 pm
content: I wonder why nobody has mentioned Gedore yet. As far as I know they are one of 'the' brands to get your tools from. I haven't got experience with their screwdrivers, but if I had to get a set I would consider them first. Unless of course there are even better ones?Does anybody know if they are at the same quality level as Wiha (whom I don't know) for example, or above, or below? Maybe at that level it's more a thing of personal preference than quality, since the latter is very good to begin with?

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2013, 04:30:08 pm
content: Quote from: Christe4nM on January 24, 2013, 03:32:06 pmGedore, Stahlwille, Hazet (and probably most other comparable premium brands like Snapon, Koken and so on) make great tools and I use them myself. They all have special highlights, which why I use mixed brands. But especially their screwdrivers have not attracted me. They are build for heavy use and they have nothing for the fine electronic work. As far as I am aware of, for our purpose and with my personal preferences, there is nothing better out there then Wiha/WERA/PBSWISS. Only if I look for the smallest possible screws, I also find Bergeon tools (special tools for watch makers) very good.In my personal ranking for the small electronic screws is Wiha first and when the screws get bigger WERA Kraftform is a unbeatable screwdriver series (it is just perfect for max. torque in my hand).

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2013, 05:22:27 pm
content: There are many good tool makers, Wiha is not alone. However, Wiha makes quiet a number of drivers and one word of caution, while tool alloys are still great, the QC of some of some pieces has dropped a bit. A buyer can easily exchange it if you complain.For example in this set I bought note the 3rd driver from the left is slightly off axis meaning the tip of driver is not exactly centered to the handle, not a biggie but some buyers say it can be much worse. The cheap long nose drivers on the extreme left show what off axis means.Those long nose are $6/set and made in Taiwan, they were claimed to be Cr-V steel and they seem to be, the shaft and heads are well made, the only issue is how the handles were fused with the driver, so you can find reasonably priced drivers for low cost ... I use them as my 'lending' drivers and leave the good ones for myself

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2013, 07:01:02 pm
content: Here is my very first Wiha Set.I do not remember when I bought it, but I have it for decades (I think of 20+ years). They are used countless times and have no sign of wear out.That's why I rank them very high.If the quality since then dropped, I do not know. But I have not yet heard of complaints.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2013, 07:33:16 pm
content: Ah, the days of the supreme quality. Compare to a 3 year old set, here is one driver; while the alloy is still CMV as they claim, no longer labeled on the driver, you can see they skimp on the nickel finish, and the quality of the plastic shaft, even the labeling of the drivers.

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2013, 07:49:58 pm
content: that looks indeed different.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2013, 07:50:23 pm
content: Unfortunately the alloy itself is only part of the magic. The proper hardening and tempering is almost more important. It is a difficult balance to get a high hardness that resists deformation and still be tough enough that it does not brittle fracture.

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2013, 08:08:30 pm
content: Usually I like to use a knife if possible as it is convenient. Otherwise I have a ratcheing screwdriver with a bunch of different tips in the handle (along with a veroboard "drill" insert) and 2 small "pen" type screw drivers which I keep in my pen cup.I can't imagine spending serious money on screwdrivers, there is so much interesting test equipment and parts to purchase, I don't give a rats ass about a screw driver.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2013, 09:31:07 pm
content: For precision tools Wiha , FeloLittle known fact : Felo is the OEM for certain Xcelite toolshttp://www.amazon.com/Xcelite-XPE700-Molybdenum-Electronics-Screwdriver/dp/B004UNFQA2/ref=sr_1_10?s=power-hand-tools&ie=UTF8&qid=1359062822&sr=1-10&keywords=xcelitehttp://www.amazon.com/Xcelite-6-Piece-Precision-Phillips-Screwdriver/dp/B000B63BWC/ref=pd_sbs_hi_3http://www.amazon.com/Felo-0715731848-Slotted-Phillips-Screwdrivers/dp/B000E6649Q/ref=sr_1_6?s=power-hand-tools&ie=UTF8&qid=1359062940&sr=1-6&keywords=feloFelo has been around for at least 50 years and is a german manufacturer of high quality tools.Same with Wiha. pricey stuff but for precision work the best.http://www.amazon.com/Wiha-92190-Master-Technicians-Bench/dp/B000T9XZFO/ref=sr_1_2?s=power-hand-tools&ie=UTF8&qid=1359063038&sr=1-2&keywords=wiha

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2013, 08:27:25 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 24, 2013, 09:31:07 pmThat is astonishing, I do not think that I have ever seen or heard of Felo. But at the first look, they really seem to be in same league as the other top brands.Thx a lot for that suggestion. I will definitely have a closer look.

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2013, 09:31:58 am
content: I find the grip length a bit long when using single handed (finger on the rotating end), but apart from that they are very nice to use and excellent quality. Sorry for the other blow-ins in the pic!

author: oldrose
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2013, 10:54:51 am
content: And an +1 for Felo. I have precision screwdrivers and VDE regular drivers that I bought as individual drivers, starting with a P0 and P2 then building out from there. I very rarely need a flat bladed driver so they were the last to be bought.Don't buy a set, like any toolkits they have items you don't need and are missing ones you do. I'd recommend finding a good tool store (a free plug for my Melbourne favouritehttp://www.justtools.com.au) and buying the tools you use frequently first, then building out - you will save money in the long term

author: JuiceKing
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2013, 11:22:36 am
content: Quote from: robrenz on January 24, 2013, 07:50:23 pmSo true. In separate incidents, I have broken the blade of a fine flat-head Wiha and Wera driver by applying too much torque on a stuck screw. They are nice drivers but not invincible. Actually, they are quite delicate.- Ken

author: ChiefPFF
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2013, 01:28:52 pm
content: I'm another Wiha fan for precision drivers although there a few gaps in their ESD range for me - in which case I use Wera drivers instead. I know nothing of driver construction but all that I can say that I've noticed is that if they've got a black/dark tip they tend to be more brittle than the metal Wiha tips.While we're talking about precision tools, I'd recommend Lindstrom for tweezers and cutters. Although tbh I find it hard to justify £70 for a pair of snips so most of mine are Knippex.For 1/4" drivers bits - Wera are by far the best.

author: flolic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2013, 02:00:42 pm
content: I much prefer driver with hard, brittle tip than one made from softer metal. If you break that hard tip, you are doing something wrong. Wrong tip type/size, over torquing, you name itSofter metal means that your screwdriver will wear out sooner than it should. Also, worn out tip damages the screws.I made picture of three PH0 screwdrivers that I have lying around. They should be identical, but they are not.Wera is by far the best one. It fit to screw head perfectly, without any slop. No name one is second, it was good when new but it is made of softer metal and quickly wear out. It is still perfectly usable, but difference from new is noticeable. Unior one is simply wrong geometry, it slips and it can't even fit to smaller screws...

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2013, 03:47:49 pm
content: Great photo flolic, that is my position too. I prefer it hard and brittle, a soft tip may deform, as in your middle picture, and could strip a screw. The wrong geometry drivers are fairly common in cheapos and tends to slip and also deform screws because it doesn't sit properly in the grooves. Add to this screws in consumer goods tend to be made of poor material that are prone to deformation.Quote from: flolic on February 01, 2013, 02:00:42 pm

author: ChiefPFF
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2013, 04:33:36 pm
content: Fair point man - tbh now that I think about it, the only black tipped drivers that've broken on me were Pro's Kit ones, I wasn't doing anything untoward with them at all and the head just shattered! To be fair I used that particular PH00 for probably 6 hours a day constantly and it lasted about a month, replaced with same one.. same again. Then I went to wiha and still using it 6 years on. The old adage is certainly true, buy cheap - buy twice!

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 02:57:54 am
content: Quote from: ChiefPFF on February 01, 2013, 01:28:52 pmI'd take Tronex (some Excelta's are rebranded Tronex) over Lindstrom based on those I own (bought new, & are recent manufacture). Erem too for that matter as per cutting ability, though the ergonomic grips do leave a bit to be desired. Due to increased pricing and lowered quality standards, it seems Lindstrom isn't what they once were (value has vanished IMHO).Another to consider IMHO, would be Schmitz. I have some of their pliers, which have been excellent so far (don't have any of their cutters, but according toprecisiontools, they're quite good). Best part is, they're not nearly as expensive as Lindstrom, Erem, Tronex, Swanstrom, or Knipex from what I've seen (i.e. pliers for just under $30 per pair, all-in <covers currency conversion & shipping>).If you're interested, here's a link to his blog:http://precisiontools.wordpress.com/.Scroll down a bit, and you'll see some reviews of Tronex, Schmitz, Knipex, and NWS (electronics plier/cutter lines). Other stuff too that might be of interest, including screwdrivers (Wera, PB Swiss, and Felo for example).

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 08:27:30 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on February 02, 2013, 02:57:54 amgreat link/blog, thx a lot.Most of my electronic plier/cutter tools from Lindstrom, Bernstein and Knipex are about 30 years old and still in good shape, but after reading in this blog, I feel I have to talk myself into, I urgently need to "upgrade" to Schmitz.

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 08:36:14 am
content: I'm going to have to start putting you on the payroll Nanofrog.Just on another note, if you are wondering why you are tearing up screws while working on some stuff, have a look to see if there is a dimple on the head. You may be working with the JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) Philips standard. The difference is subtle bit it's enough to wreck stuff if you have to lean on it. Another tool for the box!

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 09:25:34 am
content: Quote from: Precisiontools on February 02, 2013, 08:36:14 amIf you are the one, the link refers to. It is just great!!!I like your blog very much. You now have a new fan.

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 09:58:21 am
content: Quote from: quarks on February 02, 2013, 09:25:34 amYep, its me...

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 11:17:08 am
content: Quote from: Precisiontools on February 02, 2013, 09:58:21 amIt is great to have you here! EEVblog, with all these outstanding experts, is really the place to be.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 12:53:33 pm
content: Quote from: Precisiontools on February 02, 2013, 08:36:14 amAs per JIS, how frequently do you see them?

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 01:20:31 pm
content: Quote from: Precisiontools on January 23, 2013, 09:46:55 amI just realized that I totally missed this one. So my thanks for suggesting FELO goes also to you.

author: Spawn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 01:54:30 pm
content: Quote from: quarks on January 23, 2013, 11:18:20 amQuarks, the top set is possibly the same as mine below in the Photo I think, I like Wera and PB to work with too, in my picture you see one Haupa one at the top, I have a set of that too for electricians work for years but I don’t like Haupa’s bits for some reason they have always a bit which doesn’t fit any screw at all. The reason I have changeable bit is to keep my tool bag small as possible because I need to walk a lot sometimes and these work perfect, for non electrics work I grab always the PB because I don’t want to wear out my Wera’s.I do stupid mistake time to time and get a cheap set for precision work because I don’t use it that much but last time when I try to open a security screw I regret it again, on the first usage it broke, so like everyone says here get a good brand one and you will save money at the end.Quarks, I am going to do some topic hijack here but I see you got the Testboy 113 there, are you happy with that? Because I lost my trusty old Fluke one (a round model), I believe it was first model of Fluke, and got a Testboy last year and it is really annoying tester, the thing lights up too fast and it is hard to check a panel full with fusses because it is always lit near the panel.

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 02:22:14 pm
content: Quote from: Spawn on February 02, 2013, 01:54:30 pmyes the WERA set is the sameQuote from: Spawn on February 02, 2013, 01:54:30 pmFor me it is the other way around. I also have Fluke LVD2 Volt Light and compared to the Testboy I find the Fluke next to useless. Especially that you have to turn the light on, before you can even use it, is a design failure in my opinion. It drains the battery and I just do not like it. Therefore I much prefer the Testboy and even a"normal" glowing screw driver phase tester (and the WERA one shown in your set is the nicest one I have used so far), before using the Fluke again.

author: Spawn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 03:37:07 pm
content: Okay that makes sense with the battery usage, but the model I was using for more than 10 years was this:http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/Electrical-Test-Tools/Electrical-Testers/Fluke-VoltAlert.htm?PID=56199I was very happy with it but it is discontinued for a while now, it worked same as Testboy, only less sensitive and didn’t have a torchlight. I think I will give a go on Fluke 2AC since we are not allowed to use neon lighted screws because of the regulations.

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 03:42:22 pm
content: your choice is for sure much better then my LVD2 Volt Light

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 04:39:54 pm
content: A few words on the lindstrom stuff.You need their series 80. There are other series that aslo jave the yellow handles but they are not the same.Stay away from ebay. Those are wrong , or have been sharpened by a clown that does not have the proper machinery to do that. Lindstrom sells a special machine to sharpen the cutting surfaces. Large assembly places that use thousands of lindstrom cutters typically have those.If you are in the us you can send your cutter to lindstrom. They will refit it completely.http://www.lindstromtools.us/company/warranty-and-servicesThe 80 series is made from a very hard carbon steel. It is so hard that, if you drop the cutter on a concrete floor, and it falls precisely on the beak , the beak will chip off !I have broken one by tryingto snip off a corner of a printed circuit board. ( finerglass ). It squeezed the handles and the left side of the beak just snapped off. Never found the other part...

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 05:20:23 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 02, 2013, 04:39:54 pmI use these (see picture) for about 30 years now and they are still good. Do you know how the series 80 compare to the 7x9x series I use?

author: Marc M.
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2013, 01:56:55 am
content: Quote from: Precisiontools on February 02, 2013, 08:36:14 amVery rarely. The only time I run into JIS fasteners is when I'm working on something that was made in Japan (where's the sarcasm emoticon?). I first ran into them in the early 70's on Japanese motorcycles. I currently repair CNC machining centers and the Japanese machines still use them. For years I wondered what that dimple meant. Once I found out it was the JIS designation, I spent another 10 years trying to find the proper driver. I finally found them at McMaster-Carr by searching for JIS Screwdriver. I purchased a set of 3 (P1-P3) for around $35. The brand I recieved was Vessel / Megadora and they are very good quality (made in Japan of course). I must admit, the JIS geometry is a marked improvement over the original Phillips design. If I stick a JIS driver in a JIS fastener, I can just about completely invert it before the driver will fall out of the fastener - simply amazing. They resist cam-out much better than Phillips. Although a standard Phillips looks the same, it's not and will quickly marr the JIS head. IIRC, the Phillips design uses more rounded flutes vs the JIS which are more square. If you work on Japanese goods I highly recommend that you invest in a set of drivers. There is usually a few on FleaBay for those outside the US.Regarding the OP, I'm on the Wiha bandwagon. I use their insulated drivers and they hold up very well (individual - not insertable bits/blades because they are often too fat to fit down counterbores). I've never broken or worn one out yet (been using Wiha for about 4 years now). They are also the only manufacturer that I've found that makes what they call "Terminal" screwdrivers which are a combination of a Phillips and a Flat screwdriver. They are designed for the combination Phillips/Flat head screws that are very common on terminal/buss strips and most modern relay bases, contactors, overloads, etc. The driver fits these type fasteners very well allowing you to exert much greater torque to the fastener without damaging the head. They are also the only driver that fits those bastard combination head fasteners that combine a Phillips, flat, and Robertson (square) drive decently enough to not mangle them. If you're involved with this sort of work, they are a must have.Now if only I could find a Terminal type driver that was JIS based!Finally, regarding comments about Pozi-Drive. They are simply not very common here in the United States. I think I've only used them a couple of times in my life prior to working on CNC machines. We have a couple of machining centers made in Germany and they use Pozi-Drive fasteners.So clearly Pozi-Drive is dominant in Europe, Phillips in the US, and JIS in Japan.Marc -

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2013, 03:44:00 am
content: Quote from: quarks on February 02, 2013, 11:17:08 amDon't know about the expert bit, just a guy nuts enough to write about his little world of interest, that's all. Glad you like the blog all the same...

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2013, 04:11:47 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on February 02, 2013, 12:53:33 pmAs Marc M stated, only on Japanese manufactured items and they are in decline now. Domestic electronics goods were full of them in the VCR heyday but low torque requirements meant problems didn't show up too often. Japanese motorbikes on the other hand had larger fasteners with more torque requirements where you really did notice the damage you were doing. JIS screwdrivers were useful to have in this field, maybe Japanese cars too?As for terminal screwdrivers, I did a blog on them quite a while ago (http://precisiontools.wordpress.com/2011/02/05/screwdrivers-for-switchgear/) and I will hazard a guess here and say that they were designed in Europe by the manufacturers of switchgear (Schneider etc.) because they were the only ones making them for a long time. Actually, the only ones I have seen that were made out of Europe were some US made ones that weren't insulatedwhich makes it obvious that they weren't really sure what they were making them for.All the Euro manufacturers make them, Wera, Whia, Facom, Felo, PB Swiss, Athlet, pretty much all of them.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2013, 05:29:01 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 02, 2013, 04:39:54 pmI'm not sure this is true any longer (different alloy & likely hardening specs), since they were sold twice thus far (not sure what exact changes were applied by Sandvik, and which ones by Snap On). Production moved out of Sweden to Spain, and it gives me the impression it's one cutter (based on model number), and they glue different grips on is all, and perhaps apply a black oxide finish (or not, as is the case with the Supreme series <white grips IIRC>).Another thing that changed, and can be misleading due to older product photos, is that their pliers no longer use box joints (have swapped to a screw based lap joint, just like the cutters). No COO on the tools either, just the packaging.Comparing recollections of older Lindstrom vs. recent ones I own, they've declined IMHO.Given the changes + price increases (presumably to pay for the acquisitions), the value is gone from my perspective. Which caused me to search for something better, and ultimately landing on Tronex for cutters and Schmitz for pliers as my preferred choices.Quote from: Marc M. on February 03, 2013, 01:56:55 amThanks for the response.It's extremely rare for me to see them here in the US, so I was wondering how common they would be in other parts of the world, since we don't all do things exactly the same way.For a long time, I didn't even know what they were either. Eventually found out, but overall it didn't really seem to matter to me given how rare it is to find them at all (worst case, replace the screw). BTW, I'm referring to personal stuff, not items owned by someone else. Thus a JIS set is currently very low on my priority list.BTW, I'm at least aware of Vessel brand. Never laid my hands on any though, so I appreciate the info.I'm also a happy Wiha owner (primarily what I use, though I'd be willing to make room for some PB Swiss or even Felo), and don't even recall seeing JIS in their lines. Not exactly unexpected, but they tend to offer a lot of different styles. Noticed a steady increase of security profiles available in their wares.Quote from: Precisiontools on February 03, 2013, 04:11:47 amThanks.I was actually aware of these, but don't own any as I've not had the need. But I'm interested in doing so at some point (interests include CNC).

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 11:39:44 am
content: I just compared my "very old" WIHA 260 1.0x40 (heavily used) to a "almost new" WIHA PicoFinish 260P 0.8x40 (rarely used). To be able to show you the results I made an experiment with Microscope/Fotos (see picture: left is old, right is new, in the background is a 1 Cent Euro coin, to see how tiny it is)

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 07:04:05 pm
content: They don't make them like they used too, cherish your older tools. Appearance wise the metals don't look the same, with the older left one appearing much harder.The right driver is blunted from the downward force of using it while the left darker driver has some bright areas of polish wear at the tip and sides of the driver, where it tends to contact screws.

author: JuiceKing
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2013, 12:38:57 am
content: Quote from: saturation on February 08, 2013, 07:04:05 pmThat's been my experience with these miniature drivers. It's very easy to damage tiny flathead blades.

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2013, 11:09:55 am
content: maybe worth a rehardening after purchase?

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2013, 01:16:08 pm
content: Quote from: M. András on February 09, 2013, 11:09:55 amA very difficult thing to do properly because:Is the metal a oil, water, or air quench alloy?Is it a carburized material for a harder skin and tough core?What is the correct soak temp for the alloy before quench?What is the correct temper temperature for the optimum hardness?What is the optimum hardness?Is the material able to be martempered for additional toughness?How are you going to measure the temperature?How are you going to keep it from decarburizing (loosing carbon ) while at temp?On the other hand I harden lots of things for use in the shop with torch by eye for both hardening temp and temper temp by color. But I know what the material is.

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2013, 03:01:53 pm
content: Today I received the Schmitz tools I ordered. They look really well build. I am looking forward to a hopefully long use time, but I will probably never find out, if they will also last 30+ years.Many thanks again to nanofrog + Precisiontools, for this very good suggestion.BTW they have send me some with new ESD handles (see picture).

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2013, 03:41:18 pm
content: Quote from: quarks on February 09, 2013, 03:01:53 pmMy order had both the old and newer grips as well.

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2013, 09:21:44 pm
content: Quote from: robrenz on February 09, 2013, 01:16:08 pmfair enough, few months ago i ordered a few wiha blades+handle 269 and 284 aka (system 4 and 6) i managed to damage the edge of a ph1 blade while trying to fasten the screw with a little damaged head in the doorlock even more, 2 days ago disassembled a circular saw which had ph2 screws even more damaged than that one in the door slipped out 2 times but could get it out with enough downward force, and even the paint on the tip of the blade is intact, they miss some blades during the hardening process or what causes this difference in hardness?

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2013, 08:23:37 pm
content: Here is another update. Today I received FELO parts and I am disappointed. I hope and think FELO is a good brand and probably I was just in bad luck, but the quality I received was not up to my PBSwiss/Wiha/WERA tools. The finish of the screw drivers looked very different and at least one should have never made it in this very expensive kit (see some pictures). So I send it back right away. Before I try FELO again I will look for a shop where I can see/check if the quality is what I expect it to be.

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2013, 09:55:24 am
content: That looks a bit dodgy.For torque tools I would defiantly stick with PB Swiss. My theory is that if you use screwdrivers all day every day then they are basically a disposable item. As a domestic tech, I wore out the tips of ALL brands of screwdrivers. So I used to keep my nice expensive stuff at home for the toolbox and try and find a quality screwdriver that was affordable. Felo filled that role for me.