FCC/EMC/CE compliance, Product vs Kit, do I actually need it? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: johnnyfp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2014, 10:49:49 pm
content: If for argument sake, I wanted to sell a Finalized product that had WIFI, a built in Switch mode PSU, and various other RF noisy things and that the modules I used within that product where not FCC/CE certified, then I would assume that I would need to get the product FCC/CE certified if I wanted to sell it in large quantities.However, what if I wanted to sell a DIY KIT of the same product, just with all the components either not soldered on, or partially soldered, but the end product is not complete until the hobbiest finishes it. Would I still need to get it certified or is that now down to the end user to do that.For example, If I designed a module that is a WIFI SPI adaptor that would, say, be compatible with an Ardiuno development board, what I put together and sell is the WIFI chip, PCB antenna, on a PCB module, then the end use you put together the MCU (Arduino), PSU etc. IE they would need to solder it or jumber it to thier circuits.Your thoughts?

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2014, 11:17:12 pm
content: If you want to sell it in "large quantities" then presumably you can afford the compliance testing costs.Many people use "wall warts" to avoid built-in power supplies and the attendant testing requirements.Likewise using an external (USB) plug-in WiFi "dongle" puts the burden on the maker of the USB WiFi gadget.

author: johnnyfp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2014, 11:21:16 pm
content: Yeah, maybe Large Quantities was a pipe dream, more like sell more than 5 is Large quantities for meSad I know.

author: Cside
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2014, 11:41:11 pm
content: In my industry, 5 is considered mass production

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 12:54:43 am
content: AFAIK, kits have no particular restrictions; the onus is on the builder to obey all relevant laws. I guess because, anyone can always build something, you're just supplying the parts and some helpful instruction. And besides, even if you provide instructions to build a device which proves to meet requirements, there's no guarantee that the end user has built it correctly, or made any variations (skipped parts here, extra / modded parts there, etc.) that ended up screwing with that.If it actually came to court, I doubt this reasoning is exactly iron-clad. There have been cases involving kit suppliers, but I don't remember what any of them were about; worth a look I suppose.You would at least want to provide a 'good faith' effort to control things: a line filter, shielding (grounded enclosure?), some ferrite beads, etc.Tim

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 05:57:01 am
content: Only if you're talking about a mains PSU, and only an idiot would build a mains PSU from a kit, or sell one.

author: SirNick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2014, 08:00:55 pm
content: The forums here are full of PSU designs. I don't know how many of those (on the Internet in general) make it to a kit, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a few.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2014, 09:10:44 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on August 18, 2014, 05:57:01 amWell, then there are "idiots" out there selling mains-supplied PSU kits.My main field is audio/video and this vendor sells PSU kits, for example....http://www.fivefishstudios.com/diy-kits/psu-2448mk2-kitI'm sure there are several (many?) other vendors of similar mains-supplied PSU kits.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2014, 09:26:19 pm
content: If it's for the end user (even if its a module), it's an apparatus, and it's mandatory to have a CE/FCC compliance.If it's NOT for the end user (i.e. a module that should be installed by qualified personnel) doesn't need any compliance.Read hereabout this, IMHO it's very clear.For me, the basic concept to understand is that the regulations basically wants to avoid EMI (conducted or radiated) in any device that is not specifically excluded (some medical devices, security devices etc.) so:the manufacturer must comply with the directive, andtheend usershould receive a product that is compliant, not caring about the emissions or any else related to the directiveIt's sad but it's true.

author: johnnyfp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2014, 09:30:37 pm
content: Would that then not apply to anyone buying a Wifi Component from Digikey or the components to build a powersupply?They are the end user, so the ownest is on the component manufacture to make sure it's compliant, not the end user?Or are Hobbiest not the norm?

author: mazurov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2014, 09:35:16 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on August 18, 2014, 05:57:01 amThat would depend on the definition of "idiot" - I'd love to hear yours. While you're at it, explain the difference between building a PSU from the kit vs. using loose parts acquired in the store or salvaged and what makes kit approach specifically idiotic.The electronic surplus shop I frequent get their supply from garbage bins of companies like Ball Aerospace, LM and Raytheon. They're seling all kind of potentially deadly stuff - for many years.

author: SirNick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2014, 11:11:15 pm
content: Quote from: johnnyfp on August 19, 2014, 09:30:37 pmComponents can't be certified - they're not self-contained systems. (At what range of frequencies does a 100uF capacitor radiate? What is the voltage across its terminals?)Modules can. If you buy a WiFi module, it'll be covered in compliance stickers. Same with a modem. Not the case with an 802.11 IC by itself.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2014, 11:17:33 am
content: Quote from: johnnyfp on August 19, 2014, 09:30:37 pmConsider that like in weapons, where noone can prevent you to purchase steel (you can use it to build a cannon or a gun), noone cannot prevent you to build in your garage an EMI generator or a strong radio trasmitter by properly putting together various components, but of course you cannot sell it, or if you're get caught using it, you'll be legally pursued.QuoteIn that case (components) the manufacturer comply with the generic directive (the one which applies to everyone): RoHs. When a product it's not compliant, it cannot be sold to an end user (i.e. mercury tilt switches are not available to the end user but companies can purchase them).Following the attached chart you'll find the right destination of your device.QuoteI guess the difference is that hobbyst does not produceand sellan item in large scale.EDIT: re-uploaded the attached image since it was only the preview...

author: johnnyfp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2014, 08:15:41 pm
content: So from that Diagram (Very nice by the way if you created it), If I produce a Wifi enabled Development board, that the end user is going pay with or incorporate in thier own project, then I will have to get it EMC/FCC certified.Which means that all these addon boards/shields (Wifi, Bluetooth, Zigbee, Other RF) made by Adafruit, Sparkfun, Seeedstudio etc, they have all had to have been EMC/FCC certified?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2014, 02:58:37 am
content: Quote from: johnnyfp on August 20, 2014, 08:15:41 pmWell, in theory engineers working with unapproved RF designs are supposed to be working in screened rooms, so those RF designs can't disrupt legitimate users of approved products. Anything being used outside such a screened room should be approved, whoever is using it, and however it came to exist. In practice, of course, the use of screened rooms is very limited.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2014, 06:46:14 pm
content: Quote from: johnnyfp on August 20, 2014, 08:15:41 pmThey should have been certified to the standard they are designed to meet - it is just that when it is incorporated into a device the whole device then has to be re-certified as the complete unit.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2014, 07:10:38 pm
content: Quote from: johnnyfp on August 20, 2014, 08:15:41 pmThat IS NOT my job! It's inside the "Guide for the EMC Directive 2004/108/EC" document.QuoteDefinitely yes.QuoteYes, they MUST be certified. Seedstudio instruments like DSOnano, RFexplorer are CE/FCC certified (I've searched for their declaration of conformity).The fact that many items probably does not have compliance and that noone recourse against the producer (or the seller, who is responsible for what he put on the market) is another matter.Of course a document itself doesn't prove anything about the effective compliance, but since signing a paper saying a lie brings you much more troubles, I doubt that that devices weren't be tested properly and passed the compliance.Nevertheless, many engineers firmly believe that since any compliance test it's valid only for the device tested (and NOT all the production, you can find it well written in any test report), testing a single item it's useless since it says very low about the entire production.Of course, doing a test and pass the compliance will help you in any legal action you would be involved.The very bad thing about the CE/FCC compliance is that you should have proper equipment to do a pre-compliance test in your lab, otherwise you could fail even at 1st try, wasting money (much money). That equipment is very expensive, and most important, you need also the proper knowledge to realize a perfect test setup and to read correctly the results.Mee too must pass compliance tests for a device I'd like to sell, but is very expensive. And when you don't know how many items you will sell...

author: SirNick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2014, 07:47:31 pm
content: I do wish there were some sort of inexpensive pre-screening test. One that is cheap enough to evaluate design decisions even for (determined) hobbyists. Even if it would not provide compliance certification upon passing.. or did not conduct tests as thorough or rigorous. Just to know if you have a prayer in passing the real thing.

author: chicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2014, 07:59:18 pm
content: Quote from: SirNick on August 21, 2014, 07:47:31 pmAfter having had the same thought, a bit of googling brought up this article series about DIY EMC testing:http://www.compliance-club.com/pdf/EMCTestingPart1.pdfChange the URL from 1-7 to get the other articles in the series, or register on the website and look for it in the archive.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2014, 08:19:04 pm
content: Quote from: SirNick on August 21, 2014, 07:47:31 pmMe too.But - as example - when the speed limit is 50Km/h and you MUST know if your car is faster or not, you have to read its speed with a instrument.With an inexpensive, uncalibrated instrument you can say with confidence if the car reaches 30Km/h or not, but you cannot trust the reading when the car speed is around 47Km/h. Your car could be at 52 or at 42 Km/h...To have a "green light" you must use a precise, calibrated instrument, probably the same expensive device the test lab are using...Moreover, RF emissions are physical phenomenon that cannot be read correctly without a proper setup (anechoic RF chamber, calibrated antenna etc) because even with a good spectrum analyzer, FM radios and DVBT emissions make you blind in that frequencies; without a proper antenna with a "flat" response you cannot measure all the emissions linearly (the antenna could have much positive gain over some frequencies while having negative gain on others).It's a PITA. Seriously. Kidding, the best thing to do is to power your device with batteries and close it on a sealed metal box.

author: johnnyfp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2014, 08:20:24 pm
content: So I quized sparkfun about theCC3000 breakout boardand it's certification,QuoteAnd they have loads of products in the similar catagory. So I suspect that Adafruit, sparkfun or any of these smaller firms (but a hell of a lot bigger than me) don't actually have the really expensive equipment and don't actually get anything certified, and they are still in business. Is that pure luck on thier part? Or more likely the fcc don't really care about small fish?

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2014, 08:28:43 pm
content: That's exactly what I thought of that companies. But hey, a competitor could report a product of them to the authorities and they could be in troubles. If you run a business, would you accept this?To have a good test lab, you'll need probably 10-11k $. not more. It's not a fortune for them. It's a fortune for me.However, if Sparkfun are a small fish, I'm less than a plancton.

author: johnnyfp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2014, 08:38:23 pm
content: Single cell amoeba here

author: SirNick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2014, 09:46:33 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on August 21, 2014, 08:19:04 pmRight, that's clearly true. As such, I have my doubts that any DIY solution is going to be worth the trouble. (Although it could possibly point out hot spots on your device.)In an ideal world, I would like to see it work a little like some of the vehicle emissions places do. "If you don't pass, you don't pay." No (or little) cost to put your device on the table in front of the antenna, but if you want any certification of compliance, you have to pay up. Could be quite the value-add business.Just the chance to hand them your widget, and have some lab coat come out and say "you're about 10dB hot at 200MHz" would be incredibly valuable. I'd pony up $200 for that. If I wanted to know whether that's coming from the Ethernet jack or the main oscillator, I could pay a little more for a detailed survey. That would be nice.Makes me wonder if this business model could be exploited by the same kind of people who run OSH Park or OSH Stencils? (Although I've never done this before... does the test facility even give you a certificate, or is it all scout's honor, like CE?)

author: MagicSmoker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2014, 10:02:42 pm
content: Quote from: mazurov on August 19, 2014, 09:35:16 pmNot to veer too much off topic, but what surplus store is that? I may be a professional EE, but I love a good surplus store, probably because I got introduced to one that is fantastic when I was in my teens (and now I'm in my 40's, and the store is still around...):http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/index.aspxIf you are ever in the Orlando, FL, USA area (you know, to endure Disney, etc.) then you should definitely check out Skycraft.

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2014, 10:06:29 pm
content: Just adapt the text from this TI addendum:http://focus.ti.com/download/aap/pdf/evm_guide.pdfregarding non-comformity with FCC/CE.If TI can get away with it, and their lawyers approved that piece of text, it'll be alright for the rest of us I reckon (the question of whether that type of legalese can be considered a copyrighted work and how close you can be to it without infringing on it is left as an exercise for the reader)

author: johnnyfp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2014, 10:15:47 pm
content: Yeah, but I wonder if the various FCC departments could enforce resellers of TI products that the end recipient of said product mustQuote.I bet some burocrat will actually put that in some legislation somewhere one day (it's the sort of thing they live for).

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2014, 10:24:54 pm
content: Quote from: johnnyfp on August 21, 2014, 10:15:47 pmI suspect it's more for the peace of mind of the lawyer "you plugged the launchpad into the mains and are unhappy you got a burn? Oh we'll be happy to refund your purchase price if you bought it in the last 30 days...)I wonder sometimes how anybody can still sell soldering irons given the number of times I've managed to burn myself with those

author: johnnyfp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2014, 10:26:46 pm
content: Ah well you didn't burn yourself in the first 30days of purchase, so all bets are off

author: SirNick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2014, 01:12:20 am
content: Isn't it amazing how fast you can move when you touch an iron at a few hundred degrees? It's over before you even get the first waft of burnt flesh.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2014, 05:40:05 am
content: A quote sometimes attributed to none other thanGrace Hopper(paraphrased)"it's easier to ask forgiveness, than to get permission"In general, I agree with a certain video blogger on this when he has commented in the past about certification for kits and liability for published designs and such, words to the effect of... stop worrying and just do it.Kits, should not require certification, it's a nonsense to suggest any way that they could be.Components and parts do not require certifications. Certification for a resistor? Inductor? IC?... no of course not, that's silly.The certification of some components (especially radio "modules") you see, is only to make it easier to certify the whole product. There is no "inheriting" of certification.And finally, a small hobby product, especially in kit-form, or even partial kit-form, is like a billionth of a percent of a drop in the ocean against the tide of completely dodgy and downright lethally dangerous products, sold retail in shops to the unwashed masses, all day, every day, in their millions.Case in point, I see like me, the OP is in NZ,http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/10359655/Auckland-stores-sold-unsafe-adaptorsthis business was warned several times by the authorities that their travel adapters were not just illegal but a death waiting to happen, they continued selling them after being warned several times, and finally they were fined. If they had complied at the first warning (and come on, does anybody think anything electrical in those cheap-chinese-stuff shops has any certification at all?) that would have been the end of it.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 22, 2014, 12:51:12 pm
content: Quote from: janekm on August 21, 2014, 10:06:29 pmThat's a nice hack but:TI is selling many products, and most of them are certified. A company that sells ONLY a product or two, both uncertified, it's quite suspicious.With those document you should sell your products only to qualified personnel (and I guess you cannot promote your product with ads as you normally would do), otherwise - as example -anyone could sell legally LSD by simply making a document of that kind (i.e. only for scientific or meditation use) don't you?Of course the same kind of disclaimer of TI is applied when you purchase a VHF radio without a proper radio license. The seller cannot deny the purchase.But in that case the law is written for the final user, while the CE/FCC isfor the manufacturer.Most of all, if you get sued because your local authority suspect you're doing a crime, you must have the money to defend yourself. TI surely has a big amount of money. Me not.

author: joshhunsaker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 03:19:47 am
content: The real question is where do you plan to sell this?That is the first determinant of what you need to worry about. Additionally, you do nottechnicallyneed to comply with any standard set by UL/TUV/CSA/ETL/MET or any other non-government entity. Their "standards" donot representfederallaws, specifically for the U.S. that would actually encompass the statues/acts enacted by Congress overseen by the commissions granted authority to enforce them. The relevant commissions for the U.S. in terms of a wi-fi device would be the FCC, CSPC and potential overlap (for installation and usage methods) into OSHA andmaybeeven the EPA (depending on the device). As you can see plainly here, as far as product safety goes there arezeroexplicit regulations on (for example) power supplies from the CSPC:http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Regulations-Laws--Standards/Regulations-Mandatory-Standards-Bans/Now,this says nothing of state and local governments, which are also free to regulate any litany of wacky/random/variegated things at all, except where possibly prohibited by federal laws which would supersede or long-respected precedent of some kind. Most people assume that because you see UL/TUV/ETL listing everywhere (and normally it's a composite Canada and US listing) that they are somehow "required". It's simply not true. The reason they are so ubiquitous is that major distributors, resellers, retailers and manufacturers haveverystrict rules about what kind of certification standards they will require for product safety. At the end of the day, Walmart and the person/manufacturer/hobbyist selling the dangerous device are the people bound to get sued so, yes... for explicitly or even just potentially dangerous stuff it's well within their best interest (as a large retailer or manufacturer) to have a boatload of relatively strict certifications by respected 3rd party testing companies slathered all over the product label.Dealing with the FCC is a bit different. The only way you can potentially avoid an expensive test is if your equipment for manufacture falls under needing only "verification", which means as long as you can effectively prove that the equipment meets the requirements for the particular subsection or specific electronics type it falls under, you're good. This can be done through any non-accredited lab (this is relatively important because, well... how do you define a "lab"? My R&D room probably qualifies as long as my certification schedule looks dandy I would bet...). Equipment requiring a DoC (Declaration of Conformity) gets a bit trickier because now you have to use a lab that's accredited by the NVLAP, A2LA or MRA. Luckily, for both these situations nothing needs to be submitted directly to the FCC to keep on file. It's squarely on you (good luck!)The tough part is when you have to actually certify your product with the FCC. That requires explicit filing with the FCC or a Telecommunications Certification Body (TCB). There's a ton of really good information (surprise) directly from SparkFun on this stuff:https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/398Hopefully, in this situation your device simply falls under subpartBof part 15 of title 47 of the Code of Federal Regulations, which is an unintentional radiator. Being that the OP is describing a radio/wi-fi/whatever, this is sadly not the case. That's governed by subpartA, which (lucky you) is the most restrictive regulation you can fall under for a consumer electronics product (which makes perfect sense because the FCC's whole job is watching over radio-spectrum bandwidth usage). You can typically get away with a cert cost of around $1k for an unintentional radiator, but an intentional one is more in the realm of $5k+.Now CE is something else altogether. People who are talking about them in the same sentence as if they were somehow inany wayhomogeneous have not seen this process happen. CE has all sorts of different directives. Here's a tidy little list:http://www.newapproach.org/Directives/DirectiveList.aspIf you ship a product with someother type of already certified power supply, you can normally get away with avoiding the low-voltage directive (2006/95/EC) which makes things quite a bit easier. Now youabsolutely no matter whathave to still worry about RoHS (directive 2011/65/EU), possibly RTTE (directive 1999/5/EC) and definitely EMC (directive 2004/108/EC). My knowledge on CE is not quite as good but I believe it is common to be able to put the CE label on a device if you are quite sure that it abides by the pertinent directives and while explicit certification by an accredited body is "awesome", it is not typically critical. I could be wrong on this. All the products I oversee have explicit CEcertificationfor various directives (also spendy) so I've not dealt with trying to subvert utilizing a lab here.But wait! Are you going to ship to Mexico or Japan or Australia or Canada? At all? Then you'll also need to worry about NOM, PSE, C-Tick/A-Tick/RCM and also IC! How fun. You'll probably want this in that case:http://www.ieee.li/pdf/essay/guide_to_global_emc_requirements_2007.pdfSo yes, in retrospect on one of the most misunderstood areas of electronics ever... there is good reason why people hate compliance laws. They are a pain in the ass and super expensive (normally). But then, so is the tooling cost of a basic plastics housing. Man, building things is really hard eh?

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 03:36:55 am
content: Quote from: joshhunsaker on August 23, 2014, 03:19:47 amBuilding it is the easy bit.In aviation: When the weight of the paperwork equals the weight of the plane, the plane will fly.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 08:58:12 am
content: Quote from: joshhunsaker on August 23, 2014, 03:19:47 amEvery manufacturer can sign a CE declaration of conformity about his product,under his responsibility.If you declare autonomously your product as CE compliant because "you think" or "you're confident" it is, you're taking your own responsibilities.If your product is tested by an authority (or if it's reported by a competitor) and it is not compliant, you are going thru these consequences:1. if the product is dangerous (voltages, safety etc), you must immediately retire it from the market - if it's not dangerous you can go directly to the step 22. you must necessarily modify your product to comply with the CE directives (so you must pass the compliance tests and prove it)3.you are finedfor counterfeiting the CE mark (this since you're declaring false: your product is not compliant while you declared it was fully CE approved,this is legally considered fraud); here the fines goes from € 5.000 to €40.000 but they are generally "in the middle", so €20.000Even with a explicit test report, the manufacturer is always the only responsible for his product (test reports always specify that the report is valid ONLY for the device tested and NOT for the entire production).Of course, having a certification by an official body allows you to prove that you're in good faith and of course you cannot be prosecuted for fraud.

author: nuno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 12:56:10 pm
content: Talking about EU.Last time I gathered data on this (some 6 years back), EMC directive applies to finished appliancies or components to be incorporated in finished appliancies (say a USB xxx), with "finished appliance" being defined as "any device or unit that delivers a function and has its own enclosure” (have this reference in my notes: “Guide for EMC directive, 2004/108/EC, 1.2.1, 1.2.3, 1.2.6, and flowcharts 1 and 2”). For unfinishes apliancies the EMC compatibility responsable is the end-user.Having writen this, I've seen old KITs (the really simple stuff, like 2 transistor multivibrator dual LED blinking) CE marked. I have no idea which directives the marking refers too, or if it was just a dumb marking by the manufacturer "just in case". As already said here, CE consists of many directives and you need to check which ones apply to your product.Also, it's not mandatory to have certification by an independant authority, you can declare the product compliant and mark it CE, and you'll be held fully responsible in any event. If the product comes from outside the EU, the seller/importer is the responsible. I don't know how this applies to stuff bought directly by the end-user (let's say someone in EU buys from sparkfun) but I suppose the end-user is the responsible, that seems to be the general rule.No EMC compliance is needed if it can be demonstrated that the device doesn't emit (I don't remember how this is worded) by design, say an " LED and switch" circuit.There's a document from the Europpean Comission with the title "Guide to the implementation of directives based on the New Approach and the Global Approach" available on the net; sorry I don't have a link, the interested parties will have to search.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 02:44:36 pm
content: Quote from: nuno on August 23, 2014, 12:56:10 pmAre you sure of what are you writing? Because exactly in that document there isthe attached chartthat specifiy that if it's for the end user - finished or not - it's NOT EXCLUDED from the directive.QuoteTransistor = Active component = Possible radiated emissions = EMCQuoteYou would declare the compliance without knowing if that product you're imported is compliant? So you would accept to declare the false?QuoteIf you are importing a product as a professional/company, you are the responsibile. And you MUST have a CE declaration of conformity for that product, otherwise it cannot be put on the market.If you are importing a COUPLE of products as a end user, if you don't cause any troubles to TV reception or Police radios, you can sleep fine.QuoteWell, no. The only responsibles for a product are:1st - the manufacturer2nd and 3rd - who put the product on the market (importer and/or seller)the FINAL USER (so not a professional or a company) is NOT, in any case, responsible for buying and using a commercial productthat doesn't require a specific local license(VHF radios, High power lasers etc).QuoteIndeed. But we're talking about electronic devices. Almost any electronic device has anactivecomponent (relay, mosfet, transistor, MCU etc). And with an active component you cannot avoid EMC tests.Any attempt to run a business selling electronic devices avoiding EMC is doomed to fail: if you get caught and your product is not up to standard, you are fu**ed.And since a single competitor or even an ass*ole ex friend can report your product to the local authority, I think that today we should think well about what we are selling.Authorities simply ignores what we read between lines on the documents. They apply what the law specifies.

author: Precipice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 02:52:09 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on August 23, 2014, 02:44:36 pmThere's the sub-9KHz exemption, for stuff that 'can't possibly radiate'. (Yeah, we've all seen stuff that can't possibly radiate - "Amplifiers oscillate, oscillators don't".) But the exemption is real.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 02:59:45 pm
content: You're right.But you're still missing RF immunity and ESD discharge tests. Oh, this IF your product is ONLY battery operated.If it's powered by mains, you miss also the conducted radiation, surge immunity, harmonics emissions test.There is no way to avoit that PITA!

author: nuno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 04:35:12 pm
content: Quote from: mcinqueWhat I mean is that if you, as an individual, build a device and put into operation (that is, you didn't buy it fuly assembled and working), to the law you are the EMC compliance responsible. I'm not a lawyer nor I've gonne through this kind of process, it is my interpretation of the law.At the time I consulted the transposed laws for my country, which transpose to national law the EUDirective nr. 2004/108/CE. In that law (in my language) "appliance" is defined as"any finished device, or combination of finished devices, commercially available as a single functional unit, destinated to the final user, (...)". In my most wild dream about EMC compliance you could be exempt by selling a device where the end-user still has to finish it to be operable, like having to solder a switch or a pair of components or something (so it is an un-finished appliance); in this case the end-user is the responsible for the EMC compliance. That is, openly and explicitly pass the EMC compliance burden to the end-user. If this is a valid interpretation of the law, it could work in some markets. Meanwhile I simply quit the idea of selling any kind of finished "appliance".Anyways, in the chart, where is the path for "unfinished appliance"?Quote from: mcinqueAre you sure? I guess that would made semiconductor sale to require EMC compliance/CE marking.Quote from: mcinqueI said only that it is not mandatory to go through independant test. That's all I said.Quote from: mcinqueNot talking about importing, talking about the "non-business average joe" end-user.Quote from: mcinqueAgain, talking about the end-user, the non-business consumer. Importing/selling is another thing, which has already been mentioned and that I also mentioned.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 07:06:20 pm
content: Quote from: nuno on August 23, 2014, 04:35:12 pmEMC directive is intended for business manufacturers, not hobbysts. It's impossible to have a "end-user" that is responsible for the compliance of a device. When the end-user becomes responsible is because he has started a business without even knowing it, but at that point he is not an end-user anymore.For hobbysts there are local laws that regulate any issues: for example if I, as a hobbyst, build a tx-rx radio that uses police's radio frequencies, I will surely be sued if I use it. The same if I build something that generates emissions that disturbs the TVs in the neighborhood.Quote from: nuno on August 23, 2014, 04:35:12 pmNor me, and this is the trap. We try to interpret the laws, while we should only follow them.Moreover, many lawyers does not really care about your risks. If anything goes wrong, the problem is YOURS, not theirs.We should think to the scope of the directive, not searching a way to avoid its rules.QuoteMe too wish that this can be applicable. But unfortunately this is not possible.The EMC directive WAS NOT written as a whim, it was written to allow us to have devices that DOES NOT interfere with each other.If manufacturers could avoid EMC simply putting 2 unsoldered components in the package (i.e. TVs solds as a kit, solder 1 capacitor and you're gone), don't you think that:1. we would have our houses full of devices that disturb each other2. companies would save millions avoiding A. all engineering, filters and shielding used in today's devices B. test instruments and RF anechoic chambers C. salaries to engineers that manage EMC complianceQuoteFollow SUB ASSEMBLIES path.Quote from: nuno on August 23, 2014, 04:35:12 pmShould companies that produce steel have some special authorization because with the steel they made you can produce a gun? Does anyone ask you a license to buy potassium nitrate, sugar and coal? Components are raw material and are not required to be certified. And probably they cannot, because you can use them in different ways: even if the manufaturers were obliged to do EMC compliance, you could have a "compliant transistor" but you could use it as an amplifier to radiate RF, intentionally or not. And all the compliance of the manufacturer would be useless.QuoteYes, and I ask you:would you like to assume the risk to declare its compliance without being sure of it?how can you be sure of its compliance if you've not tested it?how can you test it properly without expensive, calibrated instruments and a proper setup (LISN, Spectrum analyzer, probes, antennas, RF anecoic chamber etc) and most important, the necessarlyknowledge?Would you take the risk to be reported by a unsatisfied client, a competitor or an as*hole and so bepossiblysued and receive a € 20.000 fine?Me not.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 07:58:18 pm
content: Also don't forget the purpose of the regulations.If a company is selling equipment that causes undesirable interference with existing products, they are making a problem.If a company is selling equipment that is disturbed by existing products [that meet regulations], they are making a problem. More a problem for themselves in this case, but it's also a matter of consumer protection.If a product doesn't meet regulations, but it doesn't interfere with anything close enough to matter, then no one cares.If a person builds their own piece of equipment, once, it's probably not a big source of interference (annoy the neighbors?). Whereas if you sell a hundred thousand of them, a lot more people are going to be having problems.Whatever the case may be, you must weigh the risks and costs. In an ideal world, all products are tested 100%; in the real world, there's a chance that you'll get called out on it, and a chance that you'll get fined or whatever, and a chance that you'll get sued by various parties (distributors, end users, or other affected parties). Especially these days. That's simply the cost of doing business.Tim

author: nuno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 09:23:47 pm
content: Quote from: mcinqueDoes EU have a different emissions limiting law applicable to hobbysts only?Quote from: mcinque"Component"a part or element of a larger whole, especially a part of a machine or vehicle.Therefore, not an appliance, finished or not."Subassembly"a unit assembled separately but designed to be incorporated with other units into a larger manufactured product.Again, not an appliance, finished or not.My view is that the chart isn't applicable at all at "unfinished appliancies", which goes back to the law's context that it doesn't apply to unfinished appliances (yes, my interpretation!). Yes I'm not a lawyer, you're not one too, we're here discussing personal opinions/interpretations.Quote from: mcinqueI interpreted your original sentence as saying that since there's a transistor in the kit, it must be EMC compliant.Quote from: mcinqueI repeat, I only said it was not mandatory to have it go through independant test.Independant test. If you want to go compliant or not and how, it's entirely up to you!

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 09:51:48 pm
content: Quote from: Precipice on August 23, 2014, 02:52:09 pmThere currently is talk of lowering that level.I have only ever seen one product that was nodded through on the 'can't possibly radiate' - it consisted of 5 resistors a diode and a moving coil. It was an accessory for a specific device and was placed into the device which then formed a faraday cage around it.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 08:13:19 am
content: CE marking is a bit murkey because initially you have to decide which directives apply to you and then read and understand them. Only some dictate that you do certain test and may tell you where to do them as well in order to meet approval. In theory you can slap a CE label on a product and trust to your good design intentions and luck. Large complicated items will need testing but smaller ones can probably have responsible assumptions made but at the end of the day you are responsible for what you design and sell.

author: johnnyfp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 10:06:12 am
content: So basically for a hobbiest like me that want to sell a few kits that has anything reselmbling a frequecy pulse is to make it and sell it from China! Or fork out a small fortune to get it compliant. Else risk the wrath of the Compliance government, or am I missing something? Because that sux.It also begs to know how much of this "RF Compliance" stuff is just dated burocratic stuff that doesn't actually effect anything these days anyway. I remember when I had my first 1900/75 baud model, it would drop the line in a heartbeat till I wrapped the modem in foil, so yes then compliance was needed, but today? How much of it is actually needed? I understand electrical compliance, and safetly and all that, but not so much the RF side of things.If a components manufacture makes a module and then stick a "I'm compliant" with caveat getout clause, why can't I pass that same clause to my customer, just because I'm a small fish, I get penalized.My head hurts now, with all this information overload.Maybe I'll sell the Kit as "Wifi possible",with the wifi module switched off by default, and state that I'm not responsible if you make pin 12 an output and high which switches on the Wifi module. And that you should get FCC/EMC compliance before doing so.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 10:26:45 am
content: if your using a wifi chip and are following the guidelines I'd not be too fussed for low quantities. The main EMC headache can come from poorly designed SMPS

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 10:55:11 am
content: Quote from: johnnyfp on August 24, 2014, 10:06:12 amGoing back to the "affected parties" line of reasoning, if your product is small, is not designed to radiate, and doesn't use an isolation barrier (which is the main downfall of switching supplies), it's unlikely to interfere with much of anything. Even if it does, it may be too unpopular, or too infrequently used, to generate enough complaints.Suppose you begin selling a product that sucks: maybe, it's got a few switchers on it, and the layout was bad, you know it's noisy. But you just want to get it out there. Now suppose the product miraculously starts taking off gangbusters, and everyone and their uncle wants one (maybe you made the next Arduino or something, I don't know). Now, you have the market expectation to pay for EMC, so at worst, you get a loan to pay for it, do the revision, then pay it off selling them. Can also call it "New and Improved!!", suggest upgrading the old crappy ones... or just take the hit and recall them (assuming you can).Officially speaking, you are in violation during the first part. That doesn't mean automatic punishment, but it does mean taking on some risk. These sorts of things generally escalate, so maybe your first hint will be a C&D or something like that. If you keep selling the offending product, the nastygrams will escalate. (Or maybe they are trigger-happy and just slap you with a fine right away, I don't know.) If you take action right then, you can at least minimize your risk.Tim

author: Bandit-Technical
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2015, 04:02:56 pm
content: Okay, I'm late for the party maybe, I have carefully read the whole thread, and instead of starting similar thread decided to post here and of course, the most important, trying now to draw conclusion from the inputs of all people posting here. I believe it should be interesting for many people including those who were posting here.I will post some examples, and specific questions and conclusions for that example.Example 1:For a signal measurement AND/OR generation board with mixed-signal (not only digital) electronics. Below are details:* it has plastic enclosure* it has connector for 5V power Input* it has SMA output and input jacksQUESTION 1:According to the Flowchart 2 from this document:http://www.f2i2.net/Documentos/LSI/emc/Guia_2004_108_CE_Mayo_2007.pdfCan I take the route highlighted with pink in the pic1.png attached?In other words, it will be finished appliance but not for an end user, but rather another developer? Or I cannot do it, because another developer is ALSO *end user* ?QUESTION 2:For the above example product, what do I need to do then? Do I need ANY certification? If yes, which ones? (For example the AD9739A signal gen board from Digilent doesnt seem to have ANY certifications! yet its a board capable of generating >2GHz signal! I mean come on, does it mean that if someone reports Digilentinc, they can be sued to hell/fined by FCC or other organizations?So what is the safe path for the above Example 1 ?Example 2:Again, signal generator/signal meter, but this time, it is a module which is supposed to be plugged as a PC accessory, its power supply jacks are similar to big 4-pin PC Power pins with 12V 5V and GND pins.ORIt is plugged into PCI-E slot, with jacks and additional stuff on the side coming out of PC box.QUESTION 3: For the Example 2, what certifications if any are needed?

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2015, 05:46:33 pm
content: Quote from: Bandit-Technical on September 04, 2015, 04:02:56 pmKeep in mind that sometimes it can be a bit of a judgement call, and a lot depends on the acceptance of risk within the organisation that is certifying a device. The CE mark and related regulations give quite a lot of lee-way to organisations to decide on which route to certification to take, what testing to perform, etc (with some exceptions around safety/medical/intentional radiator etc). I take the view that any commercial entity inevitably involves certain risks, and a decision has to be made on how to manage those risks (as an extreme example consider patents... It is completely infeasible to ensure that a product you put on the market doesn't "infringe" on anybody's patent).Anyway, regarding question 1, the user of your device is considered an end-user; the distinction is not between a professional user who may use your product to aid in the development of another product but whether the thing you are selling is a completed product in its own right, or a sub-component of another product. Devboards fall into something of a grey-zone; some dev boards do not have a defined purpose on their own, but can be combined with other circuitry to produce prototypes of a completed product.You might find the legal language that for example TI include with their dev boards (and even the recent Sensortag, I though that first one they did get certified but can't remember for sure?) to "weasel out of" certification (http://www.ti.com/lit/ml/sszz027j/sszz027j.pdf):QuoteBTW I believe this is part of the reason why the model of selling breakout boards, dev boards, Arduino shields, etc is so popular for small companies getting started in producing hardware, it gives a somewhat reasonable approach to avoiding some of the certification burden. If your example 1 didn't have a case, and you called it a "dev board", you'd be very unlikely to be asked for certification (but no guarantees, there's no such thing in business really...).Another thing to keep in mind that devices which are not FCC certified can be difficult to import into the US, and those without CE mark can be difficult to import into Germany.

author: Bandit-Technical
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2015, 05:53:01 pm
content: Quote from: janekm on September 04, 2015, 05:46:33 pmOK, if someone does a compromise by removing case, and selling it as an FMC PCB, or PCI-E PC pluggable PCB, and calling it dev-board. Would it help a lot then? Again... I'm looking at similar types of boards, and I do not see ANY certifications AT ALL, are the companies (Avnet express, Digilent, etc) really naive and doing something what can cost them a lot?

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2015, 06:42:14 pm
content: A year or two ago Rasb. Pi tried to call themselves a kit. One of their distributers sensed an impending regulatory meltdown and forced them to test delaying the release of the device.I'm in the US...I had a friend, (RIP) who took an 8,000$ fine and had to do a recall on HV power supply kits for HENE lasers, because he did not file the paperwork with the Center for Devices and Radiologic Health. They cited him for improper labeling, failure to submit a required manufacturers report for a non-ionizing radiologic device, and failure to keep sales records. The cost of the lawyer to negotiate the fine down from 20,000$ , far, far, far exceeded his profit on selling the kits.CDRH's attitude, and they found Federal law to back this up, was there is no such thing as a kit exemption.The FCC also spells that out in low power Part 15 devices, or they used two, as to what is the definition of production, which if I recall is five units or more not for personal use. Ask Ramsey Electronics to tell you the story of their FCC raid, and how they had to change their product line.So, Make a popular, non-compliant product, and in rare cases, you'll need to do a recall, and get a lawyer.Now here is where it is gets sticky. If I'm a home owner, my insurance policy may have some fine print about not paying if I have a fire caused by a device that does not meet or was tested for CSA, UL, CGA, etc. Of if my product caused a death, I'd probably have the same issues for a untested product. I'm sure there are quiet a few home owners or insurance companies who would be looking to sue at that point.I actually had to do some post fire consulting for a friend who makes commercial power supplies. He makes dozens of different OEM models every year and cannot afford to certify each revision. He is self insured, and documents every device he makes in a series of bench tests. He got sued for 2 Million Dollars after a fire, which would have wiped his business off the map, leaving twenty people unemployed. A post fire investigation firm hired by the Insurance company targeted his product as the probable source of ignition. It was not, but it took flying me and several experts in to prove it.Because he reads the standards, his product is ground bond tested, properly fused, shielded, has green wire ground etc... He had a test documentation folder for every unit that shipped. That saved him, and barely.Turns out the graduate student using the lab left 5 litres of alcohol where it spilt onto a halogen lamp next to the PSU in question.This burned thru a wood shelf holding nanoparticles of iron oxide, a fine metal powder, and a nitrocellulose-polymer mix. That spilled onto the 1/16th inch thick steel case of the power supply and burned thru it.Only after I proved the existence of the nanoparticles did the investigators let my friend off. All that really saved him was a photo taken at quality control showing the proper bonding, the fuse holder, and the green wire safety ground. Also, if he had not known a veteran university researcher who could fly down and take a look, he would have lost his company. The university would not let anyone interview the grad student, who developed a mysterious severe pneumonia when the investigators came. Life threatening pneumonia in the Southern US in the summer is very rare.That is two of the three cases I personally know of in five years. Ramsey's case was documented on their web site and was a long time ago. I know of quite a few small laser shows who violated US rules and found themselves busted. The FCC cases are listed on a few web sites, with some of the reports being quote humorous.The third case involved another friend, A used small, surplus, gyroscope stabilized platform, EBAY, and a pair of DHS agents. That story is not going to be told, but he dodged jail for being stupid about ITAR.At some point, your product is no longer a kit. Most kit vendors can tell you of regulators visiting at some point, possibly including Sparkfun.So, in rare cases, kits or amateur use products come back to bite you.Steve

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2015, 07:52:32 pm
content: Quote from: Bandit-Technical on September 04, 2015, 05:53:01 pmThere's been a case where a company tried to do that, and got taken to task for it as it was obvious they were trying to skirt around the rules. If you're TI, and you're making a dev board for one of your chips, it's pretty easy to make the case that you're not intending it as an end-user product. The likes of sparkfun and adafruit are dancing a little closer to the line on some of their products, to be sure (both are now large enough they could absorb the losses from a recall). They are careful about pissing off the FCC with intentional radiators, up to a point (adafruit are using more and more FCC-certified modules, I've noticed).Even if you get help from a test lab for all your certifications (and for CE mark, there's potentially a lot of different regulations that could be applied), you as the manufacturer are still ultimately responsible. The test lab will make you sign a piece of paper saying that they will give you their professional opinion on the basis of the documentation you supply to them and the tests they perform but they are not taking responsibility for your product (notified body is a slightly different story but also a lot more arduous to go through).Raspberry Pi learned early on they needed certification (Like @LaserSteve mentioned), really no other way with all the press around the "£25 computer for every school child". Arduino didn't have CE mark (or FCC) for the first version(s?) but eventually decided to get certified (no doubt as their user base expanded more and more into schools and "everyday" users).

author: Bandit-Technical
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2015, 08:06:00 pm
content: thanks for another horror story LaserSteve, but I guess it's still better to hear them and be educated rather than be part of such stories.Also "The university would not let anyone interview the grad student", University does not have legal power to not let student be interviewed by authorities and if he states severe disease it has to be proven by official medical facility, otherwise student is literally screwed, because he did cause fire not by misusing lab equipment (which could be forgiven because he is student) but by violating proper code of ethics in University and code of ethics in lab. In any case, I do not want to discuss this, thanks for story anyway. What I want is, to continue this thread with less mess/random stories/inputs but instead, more structural and conclusive comments.janekm, your point about not trying to dangerously cutting corners showing it off as dev. kit or Dev board is taken.That is why, if you let me, I will continue please. Let's get back to the following already slightly modified examples:Example 1: A PCB in an FMC or another form factor, which has 5V input power jack with <20A current, which has SMA in/out jacks, high speed Ethernet, SATA jacks,functions as signal meter/generatorExample 2: A PCI-E PCB, with additional 4-pin PC power connector, on the back Ethernet, SATA, SMA in/out sockets, powered by either 5V or 12V PC voltages,functions as signal meter/generator* Correct thefunctions as signal meter/generatortofunctions as XXXfor whatever anyone would want to design it for.Now, Let's say the target market is US/EU. What certifications are needed for above Examples 1 and 2? FCC? UL? CE? Any of those or anything else? Or all of those, and something else?again, I was trying now to kinda wrap it up, so that for me, and other users who spend their time reading through thread to have some concluding answers to grey questions.Also, I do understand that no one should be taking advice written on forum threads as directive, and still consult professional companies dealing with certifications, but at least some ideas/thoughts/comments here could give good guidance and save some time with further investigations.So.. any ideas for above examples?

author: Christe4nM
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 10:28:57 pm
content: I only know a bit about CE and EMC, so I'll share what I know in the hope it will help you along.As soon as you sell any product within the EU you need CE. That said CE coveres a set of directives that may or may not apply to your product. In some cases self-certification is allowed, in other cases an independent test must be done. In any case a solid technical conduction file / dossier is required.If something is a subassembly it does not need CE, but the final product does. Even if all subassemblies have CE, the total product needs it's own test.I suppose both examples you give are seen as final product. In that case at least the EMC directive applies. Then it depends on the product category which harmonized standards apply and as such which requirements on emissions and immunity.I do understand that FCC and CISPR (used for CE) emission limits are very similar and FCC accepts compliance to CISPR as FCC compliant. I don't know if that still counts for self-certified products.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 03:55:24 am
content: Here is an example of FCC exemption used by Keysighthttp://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?ckey=1000002137:epsg:faq&id=1000002137:epsg:faq&nid=-11143.0.00&lc=eng&cc=US