Flir E40 Touchscreen not Working - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Lrod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 01:26:58 pm
content: Greetings all,I'm looking for some assistance on figuring out what's going on with a recently purchased imager from eBay. For some reason, the touchscreen does not respond to any input, finger, stylus, pencil, etc. I also tried tried doing the touchscreen calibration with no response to touches. Anyone in the forum ever go through such experience? This is a Flir E40 1.0 with 3.12B.7, looks almost new, no sign of misuse or abuse.Thanks!

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 02:46:06 pm
content: Again, not sure if this is the same as Mk1, but Mk1 cameras use a resistive touch screen. It has 4 separate connections that relay touch position - that ribbon cable could have poor connection or perhaps your resistive touch screen overlay may not function correctly anymore. No way to tell without disassembly.

author: Lrod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 05:36:26 pm
content: Thanks for you response eKretz. I may consider that in the near future. I've been thinking of doing firmware upgrade and see if that helps in any way.

author: ksilabs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 08:38:34 pm
content: Don't hurry with that firmware update yetI do already have 99% of 3.12B.7 stuff working in 3.18 so that might be a first upgrade stop. I do hope somebody still have 3.18.0 update archive so I could make a 3.18.7 update pack. Versions 4.xx are still in the works, it might be not a quick thing to do.I will have everything packaged for bringing 3.18.0 to 3.18.7 later tonight but that is installedON TOPofEXISTING3.18.0 that you don't have.3.12B.7 is quite a messy hack, more like beta version. They put a new WinCE build, 17.6.12 in 3.12B.7 (previous 3.12.7 had 17.6.8 build) but then backed off to 17.6.10 in the next 3.13 (that is where they also started releasing those crippled X.YY.0 versions without prodkit) and kept it until 3.16.0 where they went back to that 17.6.12. It clearly indicates they had some problems with that build that they only solved in 3.16.0 so they had to roll back to older builds in between. That also clearly tells that 3.12B.7 (where "B" most probably stays for "BETA") should be buggy as hell.4.0.0.7 prodkit was also used only in 3.12 and 3.12B so it has some issues I'm trying to fix now but it is not all that critical and doesn't affect camera operation, just Service mode.3.18.X was last 3.XX release and it is quite stable and works OK. In 4.XX series they switched to a new WinCE build (18.7.0 in 4.1 up to 18.7.10 in the latest 4.4.13) as well as new app and prod kits. App kit in 4.13.X (4.1.11) is not all that different from the one in 3.18.X (4.0.17) so it is probably just some small bug fixes/enhancements and hack-prevention stuff. Prod kit should be also quite similar but that is total unknown -- nobody ever seenANYprodkit after 3.12B.7 so it is up for further investigation now.However app kit in 3.12.7/3.12B.7 (4.0.11) isVASTLYdifferent from whatever is in 3.18.0 and beyond -- it has several DLLs and executables that don't exist in later appkits so it is definitely a failed beta attempt.3.18.X works OK, no issues found, so it might be a wise thing to stop there. It would be nice to get their original 3.18.0 update so I could add a prodkit to it and make a regular 3.18.7 update installable like any other Flir update.I don't think it makes sense going beyond 3.18.7 but we'll see what's in those newer versions -- might be some fixes or enhancements worth having so I would make 4.13.X update with full prodkit but that would take time. I'll have to break they WinCE to individual pieces so I'd be able to build my own fully working one from scratch as well as develop some way to fix bricked units by dissecting their bootloader and/or replacing it with U-Boot. I do already have i.MX25 dev kit so I can play with it without risking to brick my camera before a working unbricking solution is developed.But once again, I see 3.18.7 version as "good enough" for now so there is no actual reason to rush 4.13.X development.

author: Lrod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 11:01:46 am
content: I'm thinking of getting my money back for this imager, yesterday the screen registered several touches but took several attempts to do so and the touches were not for the location i was trying for. Sadly, it's starting to look like the touch sensor is the culprit.If any one in the thread, or forum, ever experienced this type of behavior and managed to remedy it, please let me know.Thanks

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 11:12:18 am
content: The resistive touch screen design makes it very robust and usually failures in touch screens are due to severe deformation in the outer layer that you touch. Dings or deep scratches can cause indentations in the dual layer system and erroneous readout.In your case I would want to dismantle the camera and disconnect the 4 conductor FPC from the PCB, check the conductors cleanliness, clean with IPA and re insert in the PCB connector. Such may remedy the situation. If not, it would suggest either an issue with the touchscreen decoder. The touchscreen itself is 'just' a 4 wire resistive matrix with no active components on it.You paid quite a lot of money for your E40 so I can understand you considering it's return. For guidance, my E40 Mk1 was 'as new' and cost me £1200. I recently purchased an E40bx Mk1 with damaged side door catches but otherwise perfect condition for only £580. You paid decent money for yours so it should be perfect in terms of correct operation.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 11:19:57 am
content: A thought.... a touchscreen can appear unresponsive if any part of it is squeezed causing continuous input to the decoder. Multi-touch screens can accept more than one touch point at a time but the Exx series are single touch point screens. As such, once a touch input is present, all other touches are ignored until the first is removed from the decoder input. It is worth taking a very carefully look around the screen edge to make sure no distortion or forein object is pressing on the touch screen around the bezel area. Any severe distortion on the touchscreen chassis usually cracks the glass back plate so such us unlikely.Fraser

author: Lrod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 11:25:43 am
content: Hmmm... good point. It was weird when I got the touches to work the one time. The zoom option came up, but again I could not get it to register any of the options, as if something else was making the contact, already, somewhere else on the screen. Will take a closer look when I get home. From memory, after trying to get the screen to register any touches, the screen looked normal, but I will take a closer look today.Thanks again for helping me resolve this nagging issue.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 11:34:01 am
content: Please be aware that I know of no third party source for the Exx screen or touch panel. A compatible type may be available from China as it is just a 4 wire resistive touch screen panel, but replacing such is not a simple task and you should not have to do such a repair when the unit was sold as working. As a price guide, touch screen panels (not the LCD display) can vary between $20 for a cheap Chinese copy, up to $200 for a genuine replacement part for a particular model of touchscreen.Fraser

author: Lrod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 11:38:29 am
content: Got it... thank you!I will see if the seller will consider refunding me some of my money.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 11:48:43 am
content: Good luck. I hope they are honourable sellers who are nice. Sadly some can be pretty awful when things go wrongEBay were brilliant with me when I had a dispute recently. If the seller is unfriendly or unhelpful, do not hesitate to contact eBay customer support. The sum of money involved here is not trivial and they will help you resolve the situation. Sad as I am to say it, there are times when you have to pull out of a purchase if the goods are faulty, even if otherwise mint. Knowing me, I would want to repair the unit but I would expect a partial refund. The E40 is not that rare on eBay and with a budget of £2000 I would expect to find another great example quire quickly.Fraser

author: Lrod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 11:52:37 am
content: Thanks Fraser.I contacted the seller last week and he was responsive when I mentioned that the imager's touch screen was not working. He thought it was due to the calibration. I told him that it was not registering the touch when calibrating. He's been silent ever since. We will see what he says when I contact him today.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 11:55:31 am
content: I just checked, your seller is away until 20th SeptemberMake sure you raise a case before the 30 day limit if you are wishing to pursue a partial or full refund.I see the camera was described as New(Other). It is a beauty and I feel for you. I have to wonder whether it was a customer return from new with the screen fault ? Normally such would be repaired under warranty.You could approach FLIR to establish whether the touch screen is still under any goodwill warranty or how much they will charge to repair it. The fixed price repair of such a camera, excluding microbolometer faults, is normally around £400 in the UK so maybe $400 in the USA ?It is a very nice condition cameraI can see why you bought it.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 12:08:35 pm
content: Having just looked at the auction pictures of the screen, I notice something unusual on the right hand side. It may be nothing more than a cleaning fluid mark, or it could be something more serious in the touch screen. It looks like a vertical stain or potentially the two layers of ther touch screen stuck to each other. Sadly my iPad does not let me grab the high resolution image so I have ringed the area to look at on the low resolution image where the issue is sadly not visible.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 12:18:03 pm
content: For readers wanting to see the higher resolution image of the screen, the auction is here....https://www.ebay.com/itm/FLIR-E40-Infrared-Thermal-Imaging-Camera-IR-Imager-/163200142142?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137There appears to be a thin line of contamination or something else in one picture of the display located in the lower right side. This can be just screen cleaner residue but it has the potential to be something more serious like a production defect, fluid Ingres or something elseFraser

author: Lrod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 12:24:28 pm
content: I will take more pictures, closer ones, when I get back home from work.I really appreciate all the ideas and suggestion Fraser... much appreciated!

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 12:27:46 pm
content: Looking at the auction picture of the screen when off, I see no evidence of the unusual vertical line of 'stuff' on the right hand side. I would expect to see surface contamination in that picture. I have to wonder whether we are dealing with fluid ingress hereI am uncertain how well sealed the area around the touchscreen truly is. I do know from equipment that I have worked on that if fluid gets between the two resistive touch screen layers, a new touch screen is needed as they become non functional or erratic in their behaviour .... sound familiar ?Fraser

author: Lrod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 12:39:36 pm
content: Sounds very familiar.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 01:06:03 pm
content: Ok some quick searching on eBay shows that 3.5" 4 wire touch panels are thankfully very common. Far more so than the LCD panel used in the Exx series. I have not dismantled my E40 so cannot advise on the touch screen format used. The cables come out in different locations so a compatible version should be selected. The touch screen calibration sorts out the rest for you.This is not a minor undertaking unless you are familiar with disassembling modern technology. It is reasonably logical though. If you go down the replacement touch panel route, I recommend a glass substrate panel be selected if that was what was originally fitted. Plastic substrate panels flex more, but are durable ! You would also need to buy the correct narrow double sided foam tape if such is not supplied already on the new touch panel. This is cheap and easily purchased on eBay. Remember, where touch panels are concerned, cheap is not always a good idea ! They can be bought for around $5 but quality and longevity is unknown.I think there is a teardown of an Exx somewhere on the forum that may show the LCD panel etc. I will have a look. It may be a Mk1 though.This is the sort of job I would happily undertake if I got a 'bargain' purchase like my E40bx. Less so if I had paid $2000 for the E40.If I can help further, I will.Fraser

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 01:22:18 pm
content: If you need any guidance on disassembly just ask. I have had mine apart down to the microbolometer block. And in case anyone is curious, the objective lens is a meniscus lens. Again, not sure if it's the same, but the touch screen cables on Mk1 come out on the bottom of the screen on the right hand side if you're looking at the front of the screen. The main ribbon comes out about in the middle. I may have some pics of the Mk2 also, give me a minute.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 01:42:12 pm
content: Here you go:

author: Lrod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 01:46:28 pm
content: Wow... very nice, thank you eKretz.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 01:50:11 pm
content: Targit did a teardown of a Mk1 camera and posted the pictures link here on 18 March 2016https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/flir-e40-upgrade-configuration/125/Two pictures of the screen attached.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 01:56:06 pm
content: Just checked. That positioning of the FPC cable is very commonJust search eBay for '3.5" touch 4 wire' and you will see plenty of choiceFraser

author: Lrod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 01:59:50 pm
content: Thanks Fraser.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 02:07:26 pm
content: It's a pleasure to help.Fraser

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 07:00:54 pm
content: Same. Glad to give some back.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2018, 04:48:21 pm
content: @Lrod,Any news ? I am keen to hear what, if anything, you can see wrong in or around the touch panel.Best WishesFraser

author: Lrod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2018, 07:25:25 pm
content: Sorry Fraser, somehow the pics did not go out last night when I attempted to, I guess they were too large.Here they are but smaller size

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2018, 07:46:38 pm
content: I have marked up an area of interest in the Auction pictures using my laptop. You likely need the camera switched on and in a similar menu. Can you see the unusual vertical line on the screen ?Fraser

author: Lrod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2018, 08:13:45 pm
content: You've got some serious vision, Fraser.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2018, 09:00:58 pm
content: Oh dear, that does not look right at allThat there may be the cause of your touchscreen problem, though I admit I do not know what it is !Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2018, 09:08:17 pm
content: Is the mark visible when the camera is off ? I cannot see the mark on your previous views of the LCD bezel area.I thought it was a scratch in the matte face of the touch panel but that should be quite obvious whether the camera is on or off.I think you need to examine that vertical mark under magnification to work out what it is. A 10X or 20X inspection microscope would be perfect but any decent magnification may help you to see what the mark is and whether it is between the touch screen layers.Fraser

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2018, 09:12:06 pm
content: Sharp eye Fraser. I only saw that after you pointed it out but now it is clearly obvious.

author: ksilabs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2018, 09:17:41 pm
content: BTW, it is very interesting how that camera ended up on eBay at all3.12B.7 is clearly an internal development/debugging release with all parts of remote debugger in FlashBFS. I simply can't believe they would release a debuggable version with all debugging parts to general public...

author: Lrod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 02:42:07 pm
content: The mark is present while off but it's hard to see. I had to have light reflect at the right angle to see it.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 02:56:21 pm
content: Hmmmm that definitely looks wrong and I suspect it may be the cause of your touchscreen problems.So if you intend to keep the camera, I suggest you will be faced with fitting a new touch screen. As we have already seen, the 3.5" touch screens are relatively easy to procure. You need a decent quality panel with non reflective surface, as already fitted to the Exx series. It is a fiddly task but very viable as a repair job.With the evidence of a fault that you already have, you can approach the seller and request a partial refund. As to how much you should ask for ..... I leave that to you.Best Wishes and good luck in any negotiations you have with the seller. You can direct the seller to this thread as well.Fraser

author: Lrod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 03:27:45 pm
content: I believe it is so as well. Especially after playing with it by using a piece of scotch tape to pull the touch screen apart from the lcd, I was able to complete the calibration with no problem. However, when I try using the keyboard to enter a password for wifi network, it would not detect any of the screen taps.I've decided to keep the camera after the seller refunded me an agreed amount.Thank you Fraser, eKretz and ksilabs... once again... for all the feedback and valuable help.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 03:33:28 pm
content: No worriesFraser

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 09:58:10 pm
content: now fix that baby.

author: Chanc3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2018, 08:39:46 am
content: Just thought I would add my experience to this thread, as I recently purchased a used E40 (sn beginning 645...), which also happened to have a non-functioning touch screen. I quickly disassembled the front and re-seated the cable for the touch screen element, and then fired the camera up to discover it was now working!

author: Lrod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2018, 11:54:40 am
content: That's great Chanc3... I haven't really been in a rush to fix mine yet but I guess this would be a simple attempt.Question, you mentioned of quickly disassembling the front, what's the trick? I was looking to see if there's any screws that could be removed to ease the separation of the first layer rubber from the plastic screen holder. When I try to separate, I feel like I'm putting too much force and afraid I may break something. The ones that I removed that I thought may be holding it together, didn't help.

author: Chanc3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 06:31:58 pm
content: There are 3 screws behind the "E40" label, so you'd need to peel this off to access them. I used a hairdryer to warm it up. Once all of the screws are removed you there are two plastic clips either side, that just need a bit of leverage.