Flir E4 in Australia. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2013, 09:35:32 pm
content: Hi all,I'm in Australia and after initially watching Mike's review on the E4 and the tear down video (not withstanding the excellent reverse engineering that is currently going on! -), I have decided to purchase an E4 for my test equipment collection, it would be my first "brand new" piece of serious test equipment since I bought a new analogue multimeter from Dick Smith in about 1979!!! All my other stuff is second hand, freebies, dumpster retrieves and hand-me-downs .I'm happy to pay the US$1000 that the E4s are going for in the US, even a hundred or so dollars more for an Aus supplied version but can't come at the A$1600 that seems to be the go here.I'm just wanting it as a hobbyist, so there's GST payable as well. Is there a cheaper option out there that I'm missing? Are there discounts to be had (I doubt on such a new piece of gear) or maybe mentioning the forumto dealers here? Are there other fellow Aussies interested as well?- Rob.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2013, 11:02:19 pm
content: I dunno if it's still the case but last time i looked Amazon wouldn't ship any electronics to AUS/NZ.The only things we could buy from Amazon were Books/Music/DVDs.I've been seriously considering getting an E4 too (New Zealand).tequipment have it listed and ship internationally.I dummy filled-out the form to check shipping cost and it was US$40 FedEx to NZ which isn't too bad.http://www.tequipment.net/FLIRE4.htmlAll up its like 995.00 + 40 = US$1035 or NZ$1249 or AUS$1080But 50/50 chance it gets hit with import GST which entering NZ, would be an extra 15% so NZ$1436Dunno about import GST in AUSPlus like 2% on top of that for Credit card 'offshore service margin'EDIT: EEVBlog can get 6% discount at tequipment if you enter the code (see the tequipment thread for details)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2013, 11:05:43 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on October 25, 2013, 11:02:19 pmRemember that Tequipment give a 6% EEVblog discount.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2013, 11:10:05 pm
content: True, i found them goggling for E4 and didn't make the connection.From memory they require extra info for fraud prevention reasons on intl orders.I forget what exactly but something like a photo of ya credit card statement or and some ID.

author: ixfd64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2013, 11:50:22 pm
content: One thing you could do is to use a mail forwarding service that's based in the U.S. Alternatively, you can have the camera shipped to someone you trust that lives in the U.S., and have that person forward it to you.

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2013, 02:44:21 am
content: ^Yep, if all else fails i have used priceusa.com.au to proxy ship from USA before - good service.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2013, 09:59:45 am
content: Quote from: TMM on October 26, 2013, 02:44:21 amhttp://www.shipito.com/Better service, cheaper and faster.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2013, 10:46:28 am
content: Quote from: ixfd64 on October 25, 2013, 11:50:22 pmBe careful with ITAR though... these are export-restricted products.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2013, 11:22:30 am
content: Quote from: amyk on October 26, 2013, 10:46:28 amThe only restriction on these AIUI is you can't ship to specific terrist countries - it's only the >111,000 pixel (? or 60fps?) that needs an export license to ship outside the US.However a shipping forwarding service may get spooked by any mention of export issues on any paperwork, or if they notice the small "This product is subject to US export regulations" text on the end of the box.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2013, 11:34:55 am
content: I read from another post from Evan at Tequipment themselves that they don't export Flir. I don't know if this is still the case -Quote from: tequipment on April 04, 2013, 06:01:20 pmSo I might have to try PriceUSA or Shipito.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2013, 12:35:59 pm
content: That sucks, Tequipment really need to get their shit together and write a proper website.It's not acceptable to have products orderable then come back after and say "actually no, you cant have that".

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2013, 02:11:19 pm
content: Amazon also does not ship this out of USA. Anyone already has success through a forwarder? Fluke themocam was selling cheaper in Asia than in the West, but FLIR is reverse, and E4 is not available in SGP.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2013, 03:42:37 pm
content: Quote from: StevenWhitney on October 26, 2013, 02:52:42 pmAIUI It isn't just a case of "in" or "out" - different kit comes under different sections with different restrictions. AIUI the main categories are "export license and end-user agreement paperwork needed" and "Don't ship to dodgy countries".I'm not clear about whether the recent-ish (2009?) relaxation on cams < 111,000 pixels just moves them to a different category, or puts them outside the scope of any regs. Maybe someone who knows more could enlighten us....There are some links to some docs earlier in the teardown thread but they are a lot to read through. I have seen some info on reseller sites that is definitely wrong, so that info, although often short and concise, may not be up to date. And of course different countries have different regs, to complicate things further....

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2013, 04:05:57 pm
content: On the export restricted front I was looking at a swimming pool cleaner box last week, and there it was written that it is an export prohibited item........ WTF is restricted about it, it sucks water so that you do not need to stand at the side of the pool every week ( or get the gardener to do it) and clean out the dirt off the pool walls. Are the pool cleaners going to rise up and suck the life out of people if they get out of the country?

author: ixfd64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2013, 05:37:21 pm
content: I could be wrong, but I'm under the impression that ITAR only applies to commercial exports, not personal transfers.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2013, 05:44:49 pm
content: Applies to all, there is a reseller doing time for simply selling a battery that was usable in amongst other things a prohibited export.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2013, 11:26:11 pm
content: It is more likely a regional price differentiation protection than security restriction issue. Fluke is hitting the Asia market very hard with their toy cam. I almost bought it few months back, and even better if I bought from China which is selling at half the price than other part of the world. FLIR is just giving the whole game away to FLUKE in the lower end cam area in Asia.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2013, 05:35:28 am
content: Made in China, sold in China and never reached the USA and ITAR then does not apply. Only affects those who sell and ship from USA.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2013, 08:23:49 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on October 27, 2013, 05:35:28 amAccording to the label, E4 is made in Estonia.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 05:14:25 am
content: More info on the potential export issues..I emailed a local NZ Flir agent (http://www.shopflir.co.nz) and asked for a price on the E4.Also asked how closely they could match the US$995 price + shippingThis is the reply i got...The E4 camera is $1900 NZD + GST. This is a delivered to your door price. With this warranty and support is through us in New Zealand.We can certainly match the US price at $995 USD for pick up in America. We can also organise the United States Department of Commerce Export Licence for the camera which is $400 USD and freight which would be around $120 USD.I'm tempted to email back and say..You don't need the Export licence, thermal cameras like the E4 (less than 9fps) are covered under ECCN 6A993 and are NLR (no licence required)I also don't need the warranty, i plan to open it up and modify the unit to output full framerate and resolution which will void the warranty anyway.Please issue me a new quote without the Licence and Warranty costs.I think intl mail forwarders maybe the best option, but i'm a bit weary that they might have issues too.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 05:22:06 am
content: I just got my quote this morning too, SGD 1700 + 7% GST, self pick up, pay on pick up, 3-4 week lead time. And it is from a more competitive distributor of FLIR in Singapore.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 05:42:35 am
content: About the Exx series but mentions 9fps and NLR (no licence required).http://www.flir.com/uploadedFiles/Thermography_Americas/Service_and_Support/E%20Series.pdf

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 05:57:01 am
content: Then there's this price... (see attached image)although I need an opinion on this MegaDepot bunch before I'd consider using them in a PriceUSA/Shipito type arrangement.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 06:15:41 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 26, 2013, 11:22:30 amIf the camera is sub 9 fps, why dont they put NLR on the box?Is it just embargo and corporate policy?---From Flir Fact Sheet.Classification Information:Because these products operate at a slow rate (9Hz), they are controlled for export under US Departmentof Commerce (DOC), Export Administration Regulations (EAR), Export Control Classification Number(ECCN) 6A993. They may be exported under ECCN 6A993, NLR (No License Required) to all countriesexcept terrorist supporting countries (Country Group E:1), unless otherwise prohibited.*Permanent / Temporary Exports:These cameras may be shipped NLR to all countries except terrorist supporting countries(Country GroupE:1), unless otherwise prohibited.* Additionally, they may not be used in the design, development,production, or use of nuclear, chemical or biological weapons or missiles.---* 1) No denied parties (screening can be conducted atwww.epls.gov).2) Not to be used in the design, development, production or use of nuclear, chemical or biologicalweapons or missiles.3) No trade with embargoed countries (Cuba, Iran, North Korea). Sudan & Syria -- It is FLIR’sCorporate Policy to not trade with any terrorist supporting nations.---Would the fact sheet be enough attached to package?

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 07:54:39 am
content: Should be enough - .. I usewww.myus.comand they are a PITA about export control now. Even my RAID controller BATTERY is getting ECCN verification. Every time they do ECCN lookup - it takes a week IF I have sent them the right materials. Else...So can someone please link in the URL for the flir fact sheet.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 08:15:30 am
content: I did, 5 posts above.I'm just not sure if "No License Required" means "no special documentation required"

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 10:27:22 am
content: Quote from: Psi on October 28, 2013, 08:15:30 amthats for the Exx series - not the new e-series. For shipping documentation the exporters needs something with the real product numbers on - else the stall backwards. They do mostly not understand the difference between 9 Hz and 30/60Hz.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 10:41:51 am
content: Yeah, a PDF saying E4 would be needed to prove it to non-tech people.But as far as resolution and FPS goes the E4 will come under the same laws as a 9hz Exx .

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 11:08:19 am
content: I think Flir made a mistake calling the new series Ex as their website has lots of refs to E series meaning the Ex0 units.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 11:41:34 am
content: Mike, is there anything else on the packaging to suggest what regulations it complies with etc?That bis.doc.gov website only specifiesCameras not controlled by 6A003 or 6A203 .......................................................................... 6A993

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 11:58:43 am
content: All it says is"This product is subject to US Export regulations. please refer to exportquestions@flir.com with any questions" in small 3mm high text.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 12:30:44 pm
content: It looks like that box doesn't even say anything like "Thermal Imaging Camera" on it...

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 12:37:05 pm
content: Quote from: aargee on October 28, 2013, 05:57:01 amThey have a ebay store too. But I could not find the 10% off. According to the website, they would want TT in advance for international sale. I am likely to go with tequipment.net as they are supporting eevblog site. Hope the cloud of export retriction uncertainty can clear soon.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 12:39:23 pm
content: FLIR provide details for exporting of the 9Hz I series TIC's. The 9Hz E series should be he same.Note that just because ITAR does not require a licence for export, it does not mean that the seller can export without US Dept of Commerce processes being completed. i.e. a background check on the buyer, declarations from the buyer that they will not use the unit as a weapons system etc.I have found that many US sellers don't want to get involved in the paperwork so either decline to export or state that an large admin fee will be payable to cover their time doing the paperwork etc.It is interesting that the E4 is made in Estonia. Be aware that if the thermal FPA sensor is made in the USA, then US Dept of Commerce rules still apply, as it contains US controlled technology.This is why Fire Fighting cameras with USA made Raytheon Cores are just as heavily controlled in UK built TICs as they are in US built units.Licensing is just one part of ITAR. The product may remain 'controlled' without needing a license. The 'control' is the paperwork required for export. Background check, AWB etc.Note that FLIR recommend a CARNET to advise the receiving countries Customs of the cameras status for export/import.Thermal Cameras, no matter what spec, are a RPITA to ship out of the USA.FLIR normally do all the paperwork for the buyer but if you have a local agent, they will refer you to them and not export out of the USA.Be aware that any seller needs to know your real name and address. Failure to provide such breaches the Dept Of Commerce export controls and makes both you and any freight forwarder liable to prosecution. Few, if any sellers are going to ship such a device to a freight forwarding company without first checking with FLIR.I personally would not mess with 'Uncle Sam' as the result could be a very nasty fine as a minimum. Breach of export controls is taken very seriously in the USA. Just look at the number of e*ay sellers who will not ship such equipment outside the USA.Also, the warning on the E4 start-up screen makes it very clear that FLIR believe the camera to be subject to US export regulations and controls.Finally..... I consider us lucky that the USA permitted release of thermal camera technology into the commercial, and now personal, use markets. I know there is scoffing at the ITAR regulations etc. but if/when you get your hands on a TIC, even a low resolution 9 Hz version, take a look at a car that has been used in the last few hours. It stands out like a sore thumb on the TIC. Disguising the heat signature of vehicles is a challenge on the battlefield. Even your 9Hz E4 would give an opponent the advantage and can even be used as part of a sniper sight. I will not go into aerial weapons systems but they are a concern as well. The Military could have kept the technology within a tight circle of military and scientific users with horrendous controls etc. I am pleased that the restrictions have been loosened somewhat. Trying to circumvent the few controls that still exist may be considered unwise.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 01:04:20 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on October 28, 2013, 12:30:44 pmIt does but in very small writing

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 01:15:36 pm
content: But interestingly, nothing about it being a USA regulations controlled product.You would have thought it would have had the units export status declared and No Licence Required at the very least and also the Export/Import Category for Customs use. In the UK they have a big 'book' of categories from which they determine if Duty is payable, and how much.An example is that a Digital stills camera is Duty free, yet a digital camcorder is Duty payable.The E4 looks like neither so a Custom officer will have to decide whether it is an IR stills camera of an IR camcorder. My units look like Camcorders, so it is likely they would be charged as such.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 01:43:34 pm
content: Just to show how a9HzFLIR TIC may provide night drone capability......http://bestquadcopter.com/flying-fpv-night-flir-infrared-camera/Direct You tube link

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 01:49:07 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on October 28, 2013, 01:43:34 pmDon't think that 9hz, its too smoothTheir URL to the imager says 60hz but of course youtube would downsample to 30

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 02:41:31 pm
content: Agreed. Corrected In my original post.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2013, 01:09:15 am
content: Well, I've been in touch with Carolina at PriceUSA and they have handled an E40 for a customer with no problems, so this may be the way to go.Tequipment, Amazon won't ship to Australia, waiting a response from Megadepot.com.Getting close to using the credit card...How do we claim the Tequipment EEVBlog discount?

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2013, 12:59:16 pm
content: Quote from: aargee on October 29, 2013, 01:09:15 amFrom the postings, people said you just ask for it stating you are from EEVBLOG. I have asked tequipment can they accept return with full refund if my forwarder run into export problem. They have not answered yet or may not be interested to, but still early. Can you pass Carolina contact. I would want to go with her once getting tequipment reply.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2013, 10:17:38 pm
content: I just contacted her via support@priceusa.com.au, I have used PriceUSA once in the past, Carolina was very helpful and I had no problems. I can't see there being a problem as far as Tequipment is concerned, they are selling it to the PriceUSA representative. See the FAQ under "Why am I not given the original invoice from the store?" on priceusa.com.au.I've just had a really good (too good?) quote back from Megadepot.com for the E4 unit itself, they will even ship to Aus but I'm having a hard time checking their credentials. I might make another post in general chat to see if I can get some feedback about them from EEVBlog members. $1000 is a lot of pocket money to risk!- Rob.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2013, 10:55:36 pm
content: That is why I always use a Credit Card as, at least in the UK, you are protected from fraud.If they don't do credit cards, I walk away.I see Megadepot only do wire transfer, with associated fees etc. Not impressed, and I would not buy from them on those terms.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2013, 12:19:41 am
content: They have mastercard, visa, paypal logos at bottom of home page.They have an ebaystore.I see 1 negativereviewfrom 2009.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2013, 12:27:21 am
content: Their terms are Wire Transfer only for international orders

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2013, 03:49:11 pm
content: I was about to order from tequiment.net and ship to a forwarder, but they can't sell if it is a forwarding address. Guess if it is a non forwarding address, it is easier for them. That was the brief answer I got from the online chat. But in his email, RB (product manager in charge of thermal camera) quoted the reason of federal law prohibiting export without a license. Is it already being determined as not needed? I did mention, it is E4 I am interested. That is a new reason as compared the answer someone got while placing his order.

author: ixfd64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2013, 05:04:38 pm
content: Wow, I guess Tequipment is really strict on this stuff. But perhaps you can find a trusted forum member that is willing to forward it for you.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2013, 07:56:25 pm
content: As I stated before, the US Dept of Commerce require that the addressee is confirmed as an appropriate recipient of the technology. The device is licence free but not without restrictions. In my world we call such items "accountable" as in we need to know who has it. By using a freight forwarder there is the potential for some people to use them as a cut-out to avoid identification. The DoC don't like that.It is my understanding that the purchaser must provide their details and address to the supplier and the device must be shipped to that address and not via any intermediary. The potential penalty for not obeying these rules are serious and many US sellers do not wish to deal with non-US citizens for this reason.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2013, 09:19:26 pm
content: Quote from: all_repair on October 30, 2013, 03:49:11 pmNext big thing... Undercover US freight forwardersBut seriously.. Something to consider,Asking a company if they will send a thermal camera to a freight forwarder address is like saying"Hi, I plan to get around your company rules and maybe break the law, is that ok"The second your email arrives at their PC there's a electronic record of someone asking about using a forwarder for a thermal camera.If they say "yes, that's fine" there's now a record of them agreeing to it!No company is going to do that, if the government ever checks-up on their camera sales they could get in trouble.If you order something normally and enter the freight forwarding address a company is much less likely to notice/check if it's a forwarder.Asking them may have caused the problem you encountered.It's possible they have a daily updated list of all US freight forwarding companies and check all thermal camera orders against it, however i very much doubt it

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2013, 01:04:11 am
content: >> Asking a company if they will send a thermal camera to a freight forwarder address is like saying"Hi, I plan to get around your company rules and maybe break the law, is that ok"I do not intend to break the rule, more accurately do not want to risk the USD 1K recklessly. I just threw away $100 on some inkjet ink refill that my China forwarder refused to ship to my place.I still think it is more of a case of regional price protection than restriction issue. These cameras can even be bought on China Taobao (ebay) but at a few hundred more. Tequipment reasons are changing each time also, when I sent in the link about the license-exemption on E4, RB threw out the company policy on all thermal camera now. Guess, it is when in doubt, refuse. It always puzzles me that how USA is going to reduce the deficit when they refuse, or inhibit, what people want to buy from them. It is a matter of time that competing products appear, which is very soon in modern time, by then they going to cry foul on people dumping on their market.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2013, 01:29:50 am
content: There are regional sales restrictions on many items in the world. You are up against both this and the US restrictions and processes placed on the sale of thermal cameras.The official response to your situation.....buy from your local agent and avoid all these issues.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2013, 04:48:29 am
content: yep, i've checked out the local agent, they quoted NZ$1900+gst (NZ$2185)Compared to US$995 + $80 shipping = US$1075 convert to NZ dollars = NZ$1302With a 50% chance it will get pinged for GST when entering NZ, which would push it up to NZ$1497So the local agent price is between NZ$688 and NZ$883 more expensive depending on the mood of the customs gods with regard to GSTIn my opinion that's far too much local agent profit, $200 more would be resonableQuote from: all_repair on October 31, 2013, 01:04:11 amYeah, i understand.

author: ixfd64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2013, 05:22:23 am
content: You could always ask a trusted forum member to be your middleman.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2013, 06:20:17 am
content: Quote from: Psi on October 31, 2013, 04:48:29 amMy thoughts exactly, I don't mind supporting a local dealer for $100-200 but the differences in price between the US and locally here is too much to swallow. A$500 for local support on a US$1000 device? Really?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2013, 07:36:06 am
content: Quote from: ixfd64 on October 31, 2013, 05:22:23 amThis did occur to me, but it would require them to bend the truth on the customs form.Saying "camera" instead of "thermal camera" for example.And i'm pretty sure they would be the person getting in trouble if the package got intercepted for whatever reason.Can't really expect someone else to take that sort of risk.

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2013, 08:18:47 am
content: I already got my E4. This is a really huge package. No chance that this passes customs as a camera. You can bet they will check it out.I can send you one from Germany. If you are interested send me a PM and I will check pricing. I also might repack it if you like.... without the flir box and case it would be a small package.Peter

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2013, 09:02:03 am
content: Quote from: PeterK13 on October 31, 2013, 08:18:47 amCould label it correctly as a "thermal camera" if it was coming from Germany.As far as i know the problem is only getting out of the USA?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2013, 09:19:01 am
content: Quote from: Psi on October 31, 2013, 07:36:06 am"Camera" is an entirely accurate description, just less precise.QuoteAssuming they had their own address on it..

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2013, 12:11:45 pm
content: Christmas is probably a good time to be posting stuff.Mail centers are so overloaded with packages they don't have time to check everything thoroughly.Although that's mostly regular airmail postage, a dedicated courier (like DHL,FEDEX,UPS) wouldn't be that overloaded.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2013, 01:38:48 pm
content: There's an uncanny resemblance of all this to using proxies for bypassing firewalls...

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2013, 05:25:00 pm
content: Maybe I should get 10pcs from Aliexpress at USD 3.25K, hack them, and resell at 995usd to the rest. Premium for the risk and the work.There are indeed some Korean and China competitors emerging on the low end. None emerges on Taobao yet. To pay double at USD 2K, if there is Asian made at 500, I may as well get one now and then upgrade 3 more times in future.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2013, 11:28:44 pm
content: VT02 Fluke are selling at half the price in China. If E4 following suit, it should be selling at USD 450 in single qty in China and that is still more expensive than VT02 selling in China. Many brands have China special version that many time of lesser quality with parts made and sourced in China. It is difficult to tell. For me, with Aliexpress Escrow protection, this deal is lesser risk than trying to beat the US custom.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2013, 11:35:15 pm
content: Quote from: StevenWhitney on October 31, 2013, 07:21:49 pmyep, with 0 previous sales its definitely dodgy. I wouldn't touch it

author: ixfd64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2013, 12:17:23 am
content: I've never ordered from AliExpress, but I would also avoid that site. It has a somewhat poor reputation on another forum that I regularly visit.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2013, 02:52:44 am
content: oh, i've used aliexprss to buy stuff under $200 many times (maybe 10+) and i've never been scammed.One time something didn't turn up but they sent a replacement at their costI only order from people on there with plenty of precious sales and feedback.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2013, 04:19:28 am
content: Many of the AliExpress listings show artificially low prices - and when you then purchase -the seller comes back and says "price is wrong - please pay extra" - at which point you can then complain and if your are lucky you get a refund.But AliExpress does not to "card refunds" - they resend you the money - after ?? days - so if your local currency is different - you have a risk of your currency changing. That cost me about $100 at one point... I could also have gained a bit but Murphy is always present.- If they had done a card refund - you would have gotten all back with no risk. AliExpress support never answers any emails - and does not give a S**T.So stay as far from AliExpress as you possibly can.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2013, 09:23:36 am
content: Depending on the rules in your country, you also have the option of a credit-card chargeback on the basis of goods not received. Not sure whether this covers currency fluctuations.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2013, 09:51:49 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 01, 2013, 09:23:36 amI thought I would get a credit card refund.. but no... Hard to argue after they "refunded" as their support never answers.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2013, 11:09:05 am
content: I have much better luck on aliexpress than on ebay lately. Some sellers on aliexpress has no stock, and use that as an door opener. You at least get back the money if you do not "accept" and the benefits of doubts go to the buyers mostly. The exchange rate lost that is the problem created by the bankers, not Aliexpress or sellers. I see it as a necessary friction. Once the seller build up the ratings, they would do many things to protect their ratings. I was offered refund for events later I found to be my problem. And some sellers do not intend to make money at the beginning, and even run them at a small loss to build rating. But always always check and check, and test very well and long, and accept after the burn in. File immediately if in doubts. On ebay, I was cheated more by ebay on the money back protection scheme than the seller. Because one of the sellers who has a 99% know all the trick to drag and to trick buyers into not able to file or win claims.I think these China stock if real shall appear on Taobao soon. Those available now on Taobao are imported stock as they are about SGP price. I shall keep the forum inform. It is a paradise on Taobao if you know how to shop. They have many levels to protect the buyers, and the sellers normally run around in the day, and do customer service till 1-2am, and if they do not get Full Positive, they shall offer refund immediately even the fault is not theirs. Of course, some school fees needed to be paid at the beginning but it is worth it.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2013, 02:57:20 pm
content: Quote from: all_repair on November 01, 2013, 11:09:05 amIt is not a problem created by the banks. It is an AliExpress issue. Had they used Credit Card refund - there would be no problems with exchange rates. But they "chose" to delay refund for 2 months and not do the credit card refund. They can do credit card refunds up to 24 months after the transaction dependent on their bank.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2013, 03:59:05 pm
content: The currency flow is tightly controlled in China. Only few months back, non-china bank credit card can be used, and only for few selected banks. And when there is free exchange, aliexpress china merchants shall use RMB as there is no reason to stick with USD. So the exchange rate loss would not go away, unless your banks are absorbing the to and fro. That is unlikely because it is a loophole waiting to be hacked by currency traders.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2013, 01:31:24 am
content: Well, I've ordered an E4 from a US company via "an agent" mentioned elsewhere in this thread.I got an EEVBlog 6% discount (I wonder who) and I've just been notified that "the company" have shipped the E4 to the agent.So far so good... the interesting bit will be coming from the US to here through customs, although they say they have done an E40 with no problems.I'll keep you all informed how it goes.(Whoo... cloak and dagger)

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2013, 03:09:57 am
content: Did they notify you that they shipped it to your "proxy agent" ?Or did they only notify you of shipment to the address you provided (which they don't know is a proxy agent) ?I'm guessing the latter.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2013, 07:27:26 am
content: Quote from: aargee on November 02, 2013, 01:31:24 amAll eyes here. Just wondering for the billing address is did you use the agent address or a non-US address?

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 04:52:12 am
content: OK, my E4 has arrived at the agent in the US, they have unpacked it inspected it, sent me photos (optional part of the process). I've paid the balance and it's all ready to be shipped from the US to here in Aus (about 6 days shipping time).Total cost A$1182.95, the only hitch may be customs but it falls below the GST $1000 threshold for item value.

author: csshih
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 05:42:31 am
content: if anyone needs help with forwarding I can do that.My incentive:http://www.flir.com/thermography/americas/us/view/?id=62227references available, inquire within!

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 09:55:46 am
content: THANKS... I shall apply myself as I just bought an E4

author: jasonjmann
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 10:28:36 am
content: Hi guys,The licence restrictions for Ex range of cameras relates to the frame rate of the camera.If it was over 9Hz refresh rate you'd need a special license from the local authorities to be able to export it.The Ex range is under 9Hz so needs no license for export.However, the post mentioning accountability is correct, so shipping to a forwarder or a bonded warehouse is not a good idea.The New Zealand local agent has the same margin as the USA one, so they are definitely not ripping you off.One problem (apart from all the messing around shipping to a middle man) is that you will not be able to have the camera serviced locally if you purchase from USA.You'll have to ship it all the way back to USA to get it repaired (under warranty or outside of it), re-callibrated or maintained or to extend the warranty.Although the cameras are pretty tough and reliable, things can go wrong and accidents can happen. You could spend a lot on freight and wasted time shipping cameras to USA for service. That is time without the camera to use for your business.Another issue relates to liability. Do many of you buy your TV or PC from USA/China to save money? Some few might, but the reason most of us don't is that:a) it is a hassle andb) if something goes wrong with the purchase/product you're unlikely to have consumer protection laws helping you out.c) you'll get much more after sales support from your local agentIt may look like you'll save some money, but in the long run it's not worth it.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 11:00:03 am
content: Quote from: jasonjmann on November 11, 2013, 10:28:36 amHi Jason - it very much sounds like you are working for Flir or a reseller. So maybe you can answer why Flir is 30-50% more expensive outside the US? And apart from that international resellers are slow - many does not carry stock and have extensive lead times. Plus add that none of the special offers are available outside the USA.So here is my calculation:Absolute best local price: $1300. Delivery time 2-5 weeks. Warranty 12 months. It took 1-2 weeks to even get the quote as the reseller did not answer emails before I contacted Flir directly (again)Buying from the US - $900 including shipping and discount. Shipping across the world $70 from my FF with DHL 3 day. Local tax 5%. Total Price $1015 all inclusive. Plus I get $130 "value" worth of extras on the Flir promotion. Lets call that really worth $100 - so my net price is $915 total.... So a $385 benefit.Add to that 2+10+5 year warranty.... vs 12 months total locally - and we have a winner - EVEN if I have to send someone to the US with the camera.I would say anything priced locally 20-30% > US pricing - I import myself.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 11:45:35 am
content: Quote from: jasonjmann on November 11, 2013, 10:28:36 amIf you read the other threadyou'll soon figure out that we're mostly not professional thermographers or anyone else who uses these cameras for a living...And I've bought tons of electronics from China with no problem; occasionally you do get a few duds but the overall savings make up for that. In fact I'm almost willing to bet that the ones who havenotbought anything overseas are probably in a minority here.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 11:52:30 am
content: Quote from: jasonjmann link=topic=22239.msg327964#msg327964We're not talking about a small difference in price,E4 in USA = ~US$895E4 in NZ = ~US$1568If it fails you can almost buy a second unit for the same price as getting one locally.And since we're planing on hacking it warranty isn't much of a problem, it will void the warranty anyway.Quote from: kaz911 on November 11, 2013, 11:00:03 amMore like 30-100%The reason is 'because they can'.It's a similar situation with software.I dunno if this is still true but you used to be able to buy a return plane ticket to the USA, fly over and buy the Adobe software suite then fly back to NZ, all for cheaper than buying it locally in AUS/NZ

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 01:39:29 pm
content: I just bought mine from Sydney, Trio Test + Measurement. It cost $1,450, but it should arrive tomorrow and absolutely no hassles.Maybe I could have saved ~$300, but I know I have instant backup if needed (ie loaner etc).On average, I buy 4/5 from overseas, MOSTLY stuff that doesn't exist here.

author: Strammer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 01:46:48 pm
content: Quote from: digsys on November 11, 2013, 01:39:29 pmGood point....To my knowledge....FLIR doesn't have "international re-sellers" unless they're in your domestic territory...anyone else probably isn't doing it with the blessing of the manufacturer! (I may be wrong)And like Digsys says....instant backup....I'd be pretty concerned about support if my business relied on the camera. Fine if you're a hobbyist who's going to open it up and fiddle with it, the warranty isn't going to be an issue...but otherwise....it's still a lot of cash to blow off if it goes wrong (even at the reduced cost).Each to their own I guess!

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 01:59:03 pm
content: On the warranty issue... providing the camera does not fail to boot, the added 'Mike Hack' file is just that, an extra file. It may be removed and the camera returns to E4 spec. Its effectively a file execution interception hack rather than a file change hackThe more advanced changes to the E4 that are currently being worked on do involve more invasive changes. On a camera that fails to boot, do you believe FLIR will do component level or even file level testing on the board? With such a low intrinsic value I believe the E4 will be board level diagnostics and replacement, just like my very expensive PM series cameras. If the PM series fails to boot, the tech fits a new power supply board. If that fails to fix it, he fits a new LiCO CPU board and blows the firmware and calibration data into it from a fresh install, not from the old board. Its not the sort of repairs that I like to do but it is fast so saves on labour hours.For the hobbyist the risk is manageable. Hacking mission critical tools for professional use is not recommended though.

author: csshih
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 11:10:05 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on November 11, 2013, 09:55:46 amYup! Only available in the states

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 11:27:48 pm
content: I checked the terms and conditions and it states that the appliance must be bought from a FLIR Inc. Distributor. No mention of USA only that I could see and my supplier is listed under the USA site as an authorised FLIR inc. Distributor. I may have this wrong though...grateful to hear how you found out it is USA only. Not the end of the world but I wanted the E4 accessory kit.I may still approach FLIR Inc with a covering case for acceptance of the application. Don't ask, don't get

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 01:07:06 am
content: Quote from: Aurora on November 11, 2013, 11:27:48 pmFrom the T&Cs - "Offer valid for sales in the United States (including Puerto Rico and U.S. Virgin Islands) only."You can translate that several ways but I assume Flir would say that if you buy it in the US and ship it overseas you're out?

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 06:30:43 am
content: The sale was made in US.He just needs to provide the invoice, and perhaps his shipping agent's virtual po box.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 10:06:27 am
content: aargee,Many thanks for the info on the T&C's. I must be going blind in my old ageMy next step....to contact FLIR UK and ask why they cannot offer the same deal to meVirtually no chance of success but I like to try

author: csshih
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 10:39:10 am
content: hmm! perhaps! I'll notify a canuk friend who purchased one from the states. good luck to everyone!

author: NeilDe
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 13, 2013, 11:51:39 am
content: If you get someone (say, related student) in US to buy it locally, and get him to ship it out, are you violating a rule of the government regulation on this item? and you are putting the other guy in trouble with us authorities?

author: csshih
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2013, 02:25:51 pm
content: Quote from: NeilDe on November 13, 2013, 11:51:39 amnot at all. at 9hz these do not fall under ITAR regulations.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2013, 08:03:40 pm
content: My Flir is in Honolulu on it's way here to Aus!

author: ixfd64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2013, 08:47:33 pm
content: Is FLIR the only company that can reliably repair a FLIR camera, or could a third-party company also do it with enough expertise?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2013, 09:10:11 pm
content: It depends which camera you have. I have purchased five PM series cameras and managed to repair the faults on four using normal techniques and off the shelf components. Those cameras were sold in the late 1990's onwards so the technology is less integrated.If you look inside an E4 there is not a great deal that you can replace except maybe power supply components and any commercial chips that do not hold a fixed program. FLIR will not supply spare parts to anyone except a repair agent. I know, I asked FLIR HQ and all the service agents I could get a response from.Thermal cameras are not that common so few repair techs have experience of repairing them. It will be a learning curve for any that try.The good news is that the cameras come with a decent warranty and FLIR is generally considered to be a very reliable brand, at least where their industrial cameras are concerned. You very rarely see a modern FLIR being sold for spares or repairJust my view as a user and collector of thermal cameras.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2013, 07:47:28 am
content: For fellow Aussies...My E4 arrived at long last (so it seems). How it can take four days to get from Sydney to SE Qld, I don't know.No customs, no GST. Box was not opened by customs. E4 works well, although the resolutionat presentis not as good as some other E4s I've seen on the forum ;-)Order placed by PriceUSA on the 1st November. All up around A$1180 to land it at my doorstep.Very happy with the PriceUSA service, kept me up to date on every event via email, I can recommend them if you choose to purchase this way.- Rob.

author: mobbarley
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2013, 01:20:07 pm
content: Thanks Rob - was going to ask who you used to acquire it!