Yet another what DMM should I get thread - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Discotech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2018, 11:12:20 pm
content: So I've spent the last 2 or 3 hours searching through these forums for threads on getting multimeters and damn there's a whole lot of choice.I already have an el cheapo £10 DMM that I originally got for just testing v's on my vape coils, but with me about to get back into electronics and relearn all my audio engineering electronics I've now forgotten I'm thinking I should get at least another DMM that's fairly decent.Through the searching I've narrowed it down to eitherUni-T UT61E -https://www.amazon.co.uk/Signstek-Digital-Ranging-Multimeters-Multitester/dp/B00L7R1G4E/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_107_bs_t_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Q0HSFESXG5DF22WGZ8KR£41Uni-T 139C -https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00XMSUW9Q/ref=sxts_sxwds-puwylo_rv_1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_p=9126202214565547164&pd_rd_wg=EYzar&pf_rd_r=MYS8B3EA0WNFQQ1BC07H&pf_rd_s=desktop-sx-top-slot&pf_rd_t=301&pd_rd_i=B00XMSUW9Q&pd_rd_w=f86dh&pf_rd_i=ut139c&pd_rd_r=a4cb2ec3-ffc3-4db2-a9df-e073b0581a49&ie=UTF8&qid=1527807929&sr=1£38At a stretch a BM235 -https://www.amazon.co.uk/BM235-Digital-multimeter-DC60m-BRYMEN/dp/B01MU2MKZ7/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1527807981&sr=8-1&keywords=brymen+multimeter£87 if I'm just dipping my toes back into electronics do I really need something this good so soon ?Or the budget option of Aneng 8002 and 80009 rebrands8002 -https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B072LLTQZY/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A20DMEC8DDZH8T&psc=1£148009 -https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B077Z3CHVM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A20DMEC8DDZH8T&psc=1£17From reading opinions it seems they're all fairly well recommended I just can't decide which ones to get, from a value perspective it seems to a no brainer to get the 2 anengs for the same price as 1 of the Uni-T's or get the 2 uni-T for the price of the Bryman but really I'd want to spend as little possible so I can put that money elsewhere so I'm open to suggestions and maybe a spanner for a new contender to enter the arena to make my choice even more difficult ?

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 01:23:44 am
content: As fare I know is the Uni-T considered what you bye if you can't get anything else.While the Brymen is considered real good, I think that it sometimes even outperform Fluke (But remember that you often get what you pay fore and Fluke costs much mere!!)Try to look at the one EEV sells, it should be a really great little Brymen meter, don't know the price.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 01:27:23 am
content: Quote from: FriedMule on June 01, 2018, 01:23:44 amYou can get them from Simon, our moderator:https://simonselectronics.co.uk/shop/page/2/

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 02:07:06 am
content: Based on your cost sensitivity I'd say you should go for the ANENG 8009. As long as you don't intend measuring mains or other high power things where the poor safety will be a worry. It is a nice meter with a small form factor and good clear display.Although now that I go to look at the prices they seem to have doubled since I bought mine and you don't get the swath of extra bits. I bought mine soon after Dave reviewed it so this might be theEEVblog effect.The meter seems to be available in other branding guises like ZT109 or RM109 at lower prices. Who would have thought ANENG would become a premium brand?Maybe it is time for Dave to find another cheapie to review.I'm prepared to say you're unlikely to regret purchasing the ANENG or one of the similar ones. Unless you want to safely measure mains voltages. In that case spring for a properly safe one like the 235 Dave sells.

author: larsdenmark
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 07:12:41 am
content: Wow! The Uni-T UT61E you're linking to is really cheap (half price). Note that it comes with a RS232 cable and not a USB cable so you have trouble using its logging features.

author: Discotech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 11:12:10 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 01, 2018, 02:07:06 amI can't seem to find a consensus of what high energy circuits actually means so I'm assuming Cat 3 is definitely a no go while Cat 1 is okay with the Anengs, but Cat 2 I can't find whether it's ok or not, the Uni-T's will okay for upto Cat 2 though right ?I've also seen people recommend the Amprobe Am-5x series, would anhttps://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B008E07C1I/ref=s9_dcacsd_dcoop_bw_c_x_6_wAm500 for £36 be a good shout ?Ideally want something I can use on analog synthesisers, PC power supplies and most other Cat1/Cat2 stuff, Cat 3 I'll likely never touch

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 11:43:37 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 01, 2018, 02:07:06 amI just looked on Banggood and the AN-8008 is $19.99 USD. That is a dollar more than I paid for mine. The 8009, however, is $29.99 and I paid $19.99- a victim of the eevBlog effect?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 11:47:57 am
content: Quote from: Discotech on June 01, 2018, 11:12:10 amA good illustration of the different CAT ratings is shown in the article from Fluke below:http://media.fluke.com/documents/1263690_6003_ENG_J_W.PDF?_ga=2.121658248.269481523.1527822220-1112604961.1525605205Quote from: Discotech on June 01, 2018, 11:12:10 amDepending on the frequencies you are measuring on the synthesizers, the Amprobe may be very limiting as its AC can go up to 400Hz only. You can find a bit of a discussion on the multimeter spreadsheet discussion starting at the following post:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-spreadsheet/msg1420559/#msg1420559

author: Discotech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 01:56:55 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on June 01, 2018, 11:47:57 amWith measuring frequencies though wouldn't I be better off with an actual scope ?

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 01:58:45 pm
content: I own 8002, 8008, ut61e, keithley 2000 and two GW121 meters. I do mostly low voltage "arduino" and some analog stuff.ANEGs are cool, but I wasn't able to disable auto shutdown featureI think it's best value for money. I have both, I like them, but shutdown is annoying. Also adjusting is not trivial.UT61E is also good. I like it. Can also recommend. Easy to adjust, but accuracy and drift is so-so.Of course none of them ideal, they have their own problems. I recommend buy good with with crocodile clips.Concerning measuring mains, I think it's no problem if precautions are taken (I'm aware they don't meet claimed safety specs).PS for a single meter I'd go for uni-t. But I suggest have at least two meters. Say, one uni-t and on aneg.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 02:15:44 pm
content: Quote from: Discotech on June 01, 2018, 01:56:55 pmI guess my previous sentence was quite bad. I meant to say that, "Depending on the circuits you are measuring on the synthesizers, the Amprobe's maximum frequency may be very limiting..."Although oscilloscopes can show the entire waveform and help uncover distortions and other artifacts, a DMM is much more accurate than a typical oscilloscope to perform the actual voltage measurement - after all, the typical oscilloscope does not have the same amount of ADC accuracy a DMM has (8 bits versus 12, 14 bits). A DMM with a cutoff frequency of, say, 400Hz, will show a 1VRMS@400Hz as 0,707VRMS(-3dB), while another with a roll off at 10kHz or 100khz will show the actual 1VRMS. Since audio typically goes to 20kHz, this may impact your work depending on what you are trying to accomplish.On a side note, a frequency meter can also be much more accurate than the one built into an oscilloscope. Certain DMMs also have that feature, although careful reading of its manual is required to know its limitations - mostly involving DC offsets and minimum voltage that is actually detected (sensitivity).

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 02:20:35 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on June 01, 2018, 02:15:44 pmWhy so? Anyway, I don't think this applies to cheap DMMs in this thread.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 02:32:18 pm
content: Look for Dave's review of the Aneng AN8008Pay attention to the bit where he says to stay away from mains but this comment applies to just about every inexpensive meter. CAT ratings aren't necessarily proven by a certified testing laboratory. Mostly, they are bull-winkle.The BM235 is a nice meter at a good price.The Fluke 289 is even nicer but costs a lot of money. I have the predecessor 189 and it's a great meter. I leave it on the shelf and have the AN8008, the BM235 and Dave's new 121GW on my bench. I haven't really had a chance to use the 121GW but the other two work fine. I have great hopes for the 121GW.Again, look for the review! The AN8008 isamazingly accurateand only around 20 USD. Buy a couple!

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 02:52:41 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on June 01, 2018, 02:32:18 pmI know, I read a lot about the topic. Here are some examples why meters don't meet safety specs:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-list-of-multimeters-that-do-not-appear-to-meet-their-claimed-safety-specs/. I don't encourage using "unsafe" meters, but 1) I don't measure mains current 2) to me using 250V fuses for mains work is adequate 3) voltage range often not protected with fuse, so irrelevant. The only danger I see is a voltage spike and DMM explosion. Anyway, it's just my personal opinion. If someone tells a story how a cheap multimeter killed someone I may change my opinion.

author: Discotech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 03:21:32 pm
content: Quote from: exe on June 01, 2018, 02:52:41 pmThe Cat 1 & 2 confuses me on grey areasObviously PC components are Cat 1 apart from the PSU which becomes Cat 2 due to being the part attached to the wallWhat about Synths though ? Say for instance the 5v plugs do does the plug itself count as the power supply meaning the Synth itself is Cat 1 ?Like thishttps://www.amazon.co.uk/2000mah-charger-Adapter-Charger-myGadgetsandGames/dp/B00WGC2ZOOI understand the plug itself is Cat 2 as it plugs into the mains but is whatever circuit it connects to Cat 1 or Cat 2 ?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 03:39:29 pm
content: Quote from: exe on June 01, 2018, 02:20:35 pmWell, that always depends on the oscilloscope in question. Some use the information on the display buffer to measure frequency, while others use a fast hardware counter to do so - the latter is usually much more accurate.With DMM or external frequency meters the scenario is similar; because of their implementation is done via a fast counter implemented in hardware, they tend to be quite accurate.The Aneng 8009 (and several other cheapies) have a built-in frequency meter.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 04:07:26 pm
content: Quote from: Discotech on June 01, 2018, 03:21:32 pmThe ratings have to do with impulses on electrical systems. The idea is that you might be using a DMM to fix your dishwasher when a lightning strike hits your incoming mains. I have made it a practice to avoid working during lightning strikes and since there are only about a dozen air bursts per year around here, it just hasn't been a problem.In industry, other things might cause an impulse but at the same time, other devices on the power system help clamp the effect. I can see where capacitor systems might be an issue but they just aren't the kinds of things I plan to work on.The higher the CAT number, the closer you are to the lightning. Once you are beyond the wall outlet, the CAT ratings might not be terribly important unless you are working on high voltage power supplies. I don't do that so no worries. Even then, energy is usually limited.I'm pretty certain that driving to work is far more dangerous than a bogus CAT rating.http://content.fluke.com/promotions/promo-dmm/0518-dmm-campaign/dmm/fluke_dmm-chfr/files/safetyguidelines.pdfThere are a number of ways to hurt yourself with a DMM, or any other tool for that matter. If you want a guarantee, buy a toaster.

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 04:29:08 pm
content: Since you have posted into the beginners section I would recommend you reconsider the second meter be more expensive than the cheap one you already own.To shift the original subject matter. Why not consider an anolog meter as your second choice. I say this for those reading along and in your situation.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 04:55:43 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on June 01, 2018, 03:39:29 pmWhy is this bad? What's on the screen is clocked from the internal source. I can image due to jitter and noise, etc it won't be precise down to a few ppms, but I don't see why this should be horribly imprecise. Just be sure there is at 5-7 rising edges on the screen so it can do the math properly.I can give one datapoint. I actually compared both ways (hardware counter and software counter) on my TO1104 about a year ago, both agreed with what my signal gen claimed (new sdg2042x with cal cert, afaik).

author: Discotech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 05:07:15 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on June 01, 2018, 04:07:26 pmIt seems like cat ratings then are more suited towards actual electrical engineers in industry doing proper electrical stuff rather than aimed towards hobbyists who are only tinkering (unless they get adventurous and decide to rewire their home ?) So am I safe to assume for the sort of things I'll be doing (starting off with at least) the Anengs will be capable enough and if/when I want to move to more complex and higher voltage than what you'd find in synths then that is the time to move to a more expensive bit of gear ?Quote from: joseph nicholas on June 01, 2018, 04:29:08 pmHow much more expensive is acceptable bearing in mind the current one I own only cost about £10 ?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 05:10:40 pm
content: Just a point on the UT61E as sold by signstek as I owned one. It's flat at least to 25KHz on AC TRMS volts and is good to 50MHz on frequency. This is better than most mid-range Flukes. The RS232/IR cable that comes with the signstek one will only work on a "real" non laptop serial port and very few USB/serial bridges. Generally reasonably well built and durable. Capacitance fixture actually works quite well for testing small caps down to high pF and nF ranges. You can use it for measuring air variable caps quite happily. Continuity is pretty good - tiny bit of lag.Frequency is only good to the 22,000 counts so if you are running at say 320KHz, it will only read 320.0KHz which isn't a lot of resolution. Scopes, DMMs all suck there. Buy a counter if you need any more accuracy.Not particularly safe for high energy circuits. You have to spend 3x the amount to get something respectable in that space. However I used mine on numerous occasions on the mains to repair white goods, television SMPS etc. Good procedure is required before good equipment. Sloppy procedure will kill you even with a high end Fluke yellow space ship.I replaced mine with a Keysight U1241C eventually which is actually lower spec but safer and better engineered and orange. I like orange.I can't comment on any others as I haven't owned them. (other than a Fluke 77 and a bunch of old Fluke 8000 series which are a combination of unreliable and DT830 grade danger depending on the model)

author: Discotech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 05:56:42 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 01, 2018, 05:10:40 pmWould the UT61E give me more flexibility over the AN8002 + AN8009 though ?And just to throw more complexity into this decision after further reading I've discovered the zt301/302 which seem to be better upgraded versions of the 8002/8009 but there seems to be relatively less info on themI still have no clue which to buy

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 06:05:09 pm
content: No idea on the AN8002 front. I ordered one from Aliexpress and it didn’t turn upHaving two meters is very useful though.

author: Discotech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 06:57:15 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 01, 2018, 06:05:09 pmBased off these reviews what would be betterZT301+ZT302 =http://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMBSide%20ZT301%20UK.html+http://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMBSideZT302%20UK.htmlAn8002 or 08 + An8009 =http://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMBSideZT302%20UK.htmlorhttp://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMAnengAN8008%20UK.html+http://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMAnengAN8009%20UK.htmlor any combination of above including possible An860Bhttp://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMAnengAN860B%20UK.html(max of 2)Or a Uni-T UT61E ??I'm going to set £50 as my limit so what would suit me better a single UT61E or a duo of the others ?

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 08:35:19 pm
content: More meters > less meters.If you build a power supply, a very common project, 4 meters are very handy to measure input/output. I'd take a duo of the others.

author: Discotech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 08:42:27 pm
content: Quote from: Fsck on June 01, 2018, 08:35:19 pmBut which ones ?I'm thinking the ZT30x's because they're the newest models, but newer doesn't always = betterI know they're cheap DMM's but I don't like wasting money whether it's 50p or £50 so I'd like to get whatever combination is the best for the moneyOr is there relatively little difference between them ?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 09:07:17 pm
content: Ok so this is doing your head in.Until you've owned one or two you won't really know exactly what you need (I didn't) so I could say a 6.5 digit bench DMM to cover most bases but that would be silly as you haven't got that kind of budget.If you're willing to do a good bit more study check out Joe's excellent DMM testing thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/He's trying to bust DMM's with zaps that ordinarily a DMM won't get to see but this is about robustness that should be factored into any investment you make. The cheapest 'good' DMM is the Fluke 101 but it's fairly limited in capability.A AN800* or a Uni-T will be good enough for now I expect. You should set your sights on having 2 main DMM's to use.

author: Discotech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 10:04:29 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on June 01, 2018, 09:07:17 pmI've decided to go with the ZT301 and 302 just because I have some eneloop rechargeable batteries sitting in a drawer doing nothing that I can stick in them

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 10:06:24 pm
content: Let us know how you get on

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 11:04:44 pm
content: Quote from: Discotech on June 01, 2018, 05:07:15 pmEssentially, yes. If you can stay away from the mains, the source of high energy, you should be good to go.Stay away from large battery banks (arguably including automotive batteries) and large capacitors as well. The meters are fused on the current ranges and, more often than not, the fuse doesn't have a suitable rating. So things get exciting when you measure voltage with the probes set for current.As with anything electrical, you need to take care. Check your meter setting before you jam your probes in a circuit.Later on, you'll see why 10V stored in a 1 Farad Super Cap can release a LOT of energy if it gets shorted out.I'm using the AN8008 interchangeably with my other meters. I work with low voltage stuff on my bench and I don't give it a moment's thought. For me, +-15V is about as high as I go. If I were working on tube amps, I wouldn't change a thing. The meters are fine!I see no reason to work on line powered high energy SMPSs. If I need a power supply, I'll just buy one.

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2018, 05:57:55 am
content: It does not matter what you choose, in this price range they are all more or less a toy/gamble, so choose the one with the functions you need and looks pretty, Use it until it dies (most times because you made a mistake) and then buy an other. For hobby and low energie stuff they all will do the job.Good meters (in every way, no compromise) will cost you much more. How much more depends on your needs. If you work on high energy stuff, or you need very good specs, or high stability, or a lot of digits,or high speed, or fool proof or very safe, etc the price goes up exponentially.I have an Aneng 8002 but it would drive me nuts if I really had to use it.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2018, 01:43:38 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on June 01, 2018, 09:07:17 pmI'd say that thread is more of entertaining value, rather than a guide to buy a DMM. Chances to get a DMM killed are rather low (unless you do it on purpose).I'd say, a go-to DMM should have fast continuity testing and auto-ranging, a good big display, good current range (>=10A), fast bargraph, etc. I.e., it should have good usability in typical operations. Then the second/third/etc DMM can be more fancy: more precise, remote connectivity, two simultaneous measurements, etc. But that's far less important, imho.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2018, 05:37:12 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on June 01, 2018, 09:07:17 pmAnd probably no ability to control the signal to a level consistent with the ability to measure it.It does no good to measure with a micrometer if you are going to cut with an axe.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2018, 06:53:20 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on June 01, 2018, 11:04:44 pmDo you mean AC vs DC fuse rating? Yeah, this is true, most cheap DMMs have "only" 250VAC fuses. They are not even rated for DC. But I think for a few tens of volts it should be fine.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2018, 08:58:41 pm
content: The important thing is that it HAS a fuse on the current range. Seen a few cases of minor burns and/or destroyed meter when a DIY'er put an unfused meter across a car battery, forgetting to change the prods back to Volts. Provided it has some sort of fuse, even a cheaponasty glass one, this kind of accident will be averted.Having no fuse is the major safety issue with the very cheap meters, and the VC97 or AN800* are better choices as they do at least have fuses, even if not HBC ones.