Deleting posts - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 07:18:27 am
content: Due to an incident where someone deleted their own first post in a thread resulting in the deletion of the entire thread, deleting your own posts has been disabled.This was discussed in the Supporters Lounge and a poll conducted, and most people wanted this.As always, comments invited.

author: Jon Chandler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 07:42:23 am
content: I have seen a few cases here where people go back and edit the first post in a thread to something like "never mind. I solved the problem." And deleting all the rest, which makes all the rest of the posts in the thread useless. The answer to whatever problem you're facing might be there, but you can't tell because the original post was removed.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 10:19:27 am
content: Quote from: Jon Chandler on December 30, 2013, 07:42:23 amThis is indeed quite annoying and self centered behavior. That sort of person always goes on my Screw You Hippie list. Next question? Never mind, you will have solved the problem in the future. Happy solving!But haven't really seen this on eevblog so far. Edit posts, yes. But ohlook I have my answer *delete* not so much... Edit post is a Good Thing , as is delete post. As wilfred said, some people should use it more often.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 10:58:06 am
content: Ok, poll now added here...Bare in mind that if someone asks me to delete their posts or even nuke their entire account and all posts, I never say no, it's their choice.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:06:18 am
content: Quote from: mrflibble on December 30, 2013, 10:19:27 ami have. lol, i may have been in on this one.im not sure this actual post was the deciding one being talked about, but someone recently put a post in the beginners section asking about a certain o'scope, which was followed by a dickish response by someone bitching about how he/she was stupid because they didnt properly use the search first, to which i called him out on his asshole-edness. that was the first 3 posts, idk if there were any responses beyond that, but im sure it devolved fairly quickly if there were.as far as the poll, dave, its your party, you have to clean up afterwards. do as you see fit.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:32:37 am
content: Quote from: deth502 on December 30, 2013, 11:06:18 amActually, the first response (no, it was not me) was right and you were wrong. That particular rubbish oscilloscope had been discussed in at least five threads, the response contained links. Maybe it even had been discussed ten times.The guy asking was also not a newbie, he knows the forum for some time, and feels the need to bore us with his ham stories. He made a fuss about being treated so "badly" for his laziness. The thing is, all he managed is to annoy more people, the forum gets one feature less and he certainly ended up in a bunch of ignore lists. Great achievement.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:52:13 am
content: I was reading a thread I had posted in the other day, jumping back and forth through its pages, when I noticed someone had responded to somethig I had said. I reponded and hit post but then realised it was nearly 2 pages since his post and the topic had moved on to something else. I deleted it pretty much staight away realising that my post was now out of context.There are legitimate reasons for deleting a post and its not always worth the hassle of calling upon a moderator to do so

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:56:12 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on December 30, 2013, 11:52:13 amAccording to the poll, the majority don't seem to think so?

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 12:00:44 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 30, 2013, 11:56:12 amThat's not very reasuring, the majority of australia's population voted for abott

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 12:19:07 pm
content: If you're really upset with what you posted, you can still edit the post and delete all of the text, which preserves all other content.

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 12:23:44 pm
content: Please don't remove their posts, remove their username and signature from the posts at the most. So when few people remove their posts/accounts we would have "anonymous" people who are indistinguishable.Some boards I've seen require for you to have very heavy reasons for removing all the posts of a user, usually it's never done.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 12:54:06 pm
content: +1Too many people "mouth off" or behave unsociably, then when they get called up, just go back an erase it all,and suddenly they're all clean again - then continue to do it, because they have the magic erase pen.I also prefer sites where there is NO erase option, and edits only for a short period (or admin request).I've been resorting to "saves" the last few weeks, including the E4 debacle. It's the only way I can keep track.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 01:07:19 pm
content: I'm going to miss the post delete button. sometimes when I'm sleep deprived, I type something incredibly moronic that I don't realize until minutes after I post.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 01:08:37 pm
content: Having a limited window during which you can edit or delete posts is (I think) a good thing and standard on most (all?) of the vBulletin sites I frequent.No such option in SMFOf course, should Dave decide to re-allow user deletes, now that the recycle option is on, deleted posts are moved to a secret location and not actually removed from the system.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 01:15:31 pm
content: Quote from: Fsck on December 30, 2013, 01:07:19 pmI have been "online" since the late 80s and have accepted the fact that sometimes I'm just retarded. I've learned to make fun of myself and laugh just as hard as everyone else when I do it. No need for a delete post button, just, thenand move on!

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 01:19:24 pm
content: No.Or only if you accidentally disclosed personally identifiable information you deem might be harmful, and then you should have to ask an Admin to help and explain it to them. Other than that, no, you posted it, you have to live with it. Besides, once posted, there is no guarantee it hasn't already been copied by anyone on the internet or parts quoted into other threads.Think before posting. If you can't do that, then you should not be posting on forums.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 01:50:42 pm
content: Deleting can maybe cause confusion, especially if it results in other posts disappearing, - as long as posts are modifiable (which _is_ essential to enable errors to be corrected or updated info to be added), replacing the post text with "deleted due to employer issues/stupidity/problem solved/legal issues/whatever" is probably better than just deleting it.

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 02:37:20 pm
content: You can go back and edit your posts so there is no need to delete them. Just say in the edit you screwed up.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 02:45:21 pm
content: Quote from: SLJ on December 30, 2013, 02:37:20 pmUnfortunately certain people are just not able to do that.The only reason I could think of the need on post deletion is that posts were made too many when creating a new thread, like a tear-down with tons of photos to share, and since max picture attachments on single post is only allowed max at 10 pics, so the thread owner might miscalculated and created too many reserved/spare blank posts to accommodate the upcoming photos, and ended up too many of these blank reserved posts at the beginning of the thread.

author: Radio Tech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 03:16:10 pm
content: I have been SYSOP, Admin, moderator of forums and bulletin boards since the days of WWIV BBS systems. I always hate to see a forum where the user has the ability to delete their post or account.I simply put a statement in the forum rules that all post and content of xxxx.com belong to xxx.com all rights reserved blah blah blah. I am a member of several radio type forums and seen folks go off the deep end and delete every post they ever made. Tons of meaningful information gets removed that can never be revived. Unless you have a back up ?Just my opinion.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 03:56:07 pm
content: I had an employer issue in the past where I was asked (told) to delete a forum post. The admin didn't respond so I just edited out all the content.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 04:06:12 pm
content: Quote from: GeoffS on December 30, 2013, 01:08:37 pmAh, that would explain why it's all-or-nothing.

author: Teneyes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 04:34:46 pm
content: I say Yes to delete my own Posts.and I have often deleted my posts, and here is why:1.It is off topic, or a bad joke2.My complete post is quoted many days later ,so it is better to have my post along with the response together in the later post.3.A Group of members agree that a series of post are off topic or desire a new topicand wish to repost in a New Blog topic4.I wish to be able to delete my post when it was incorrectand someone has posted a more correct response ,keeping the blog clean5.. Right of CopyI once cleaned a large Blog of my unnecessary posts and reduced the Blog 5 pages;so I BS a LotI agee the first post (the topis) should not be deleted,but maybe allow it to be unassign who Posted it

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 04:41:05 pm
content: Quote from: Fsck on December 30, 2013, 04:06:12 pmShouldn't be a time limit on editing - a good example is the colossal Flir E4 thread and similar scope hack threads, where it is useful to be able to update the first post to reflect the "state of the art" and link to significant posts so people don't need to trawl through 2500+ posts.

author: ResR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 06:03:28 pm
content: I agree with mikeelectricstuff. I have used theeditmodify button to add some new info with Edit at the beginning about the progress of the project if nobody have been replied since my last post few days (maybe weeks, but not yet happened) ago. Maybe if the first post can be deleted only by moderator, that way the whole topic doesn't disappear by the actions of the OP.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 06:32:53 pm
content: Speaking form years of experience running forums ...Thereshouldbe a time limit on editing posts. Make it a few hours or a day if you wish, but no limit on editing? Not a good idea at all.Reason is, people may have already quoted the post, so editing the original days later can lead to confusing threads. Also, I've actually seen members get so pissed at another member, or the staff, that they want to delete all their posts in protest. Finding that they can't, they will go back and edit all their posts to blanks or like this -"..."As I said before, if a member makes a mistake and posts personal info that they find puts them in an awkward or dangerous situation, certainly the forum staff can take that into account and fix it for them. The Admin can edit any post at any time. But if you just make dumb posts and/or post wrong info, then to the first that's tuff sh*t, and to the second, post a correction post or thread to fix it.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 09:37:26 pm
content: How often does this happen? Most of the threads I have come across that seem a little discontinuous have usually been edited by a moderator and often at the disappointment of those involved in it. They modify it to suite their sensibilities yet the person that actually wrote the post can't edit/delete it to suite theirs?The thing I'm finding most interesting is that the majority of people who are pro-banning the edit/deletion capability are pushing the high moral ground of "loss of valuable information" when in actual fact they have torn strips out of some nOOb for asking/demanding something stupid and they don't want their vitriol left standing in isolation.It also seem that most of the arguments for banning have a punitive, self righteous, almost malicious overtone. This is simply a forum of like minded individuals talking about stuff. We are not involved in creating the worlds "suppository" (new Oz word, look it up... no, not there, on google) of all things electronic. Stop taking things so seriously and let people be... well, human.

author: pomonabill221
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 10:43:02 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on December 30, 2013, 09:37:26 pmI agree with "let people be well, human"!!!Yes, some people could use the search function more (or at all), but the times I have used it, I came up with WAY more hits that were NOT what I was looking for (like "reset flir E4 ip address" or e4 ip address" or "e4 ip" or (many variants of the previous)), and NO relevant hits came back.I did post on the e4 teardown thread a rather simple question, and was torn apart by another member for being lazy or "yoda mode on" .... turns out that the member that tore me apart confused me with someone else and didn't take the time to publicly apologize for the snappy post, but just removed it. This was, or course after the post had been read by others.I did receive a helpful post from another member and I thanked him for his help.... it is always a good idea to acknowledge a helpful reply!I have since wanted to ask another question AFTER using the search function to no avail, but will not because of the hostility by some people.... it just isn't worth it! These forums are supposed to be HELPFUL... I feel if someone doesn't think they can help, and decide to be nasty... DON'T POST ANYTHING AT ALL!!EVERYONE MUST REMEMBER... that THEY had to start somewhere also! and didn't know jack in the beginning and had to ask questions too!

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 10:46:02 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on December 30, 2013, 09:37:26 pmPretty much this. IMO a happy medium is no deletion, but free editing. That way if someone want to remove their post content they can do so, and the rest can see "ah okay, edited post, so that explains the out of context replies here and there".

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 10:47:09 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 30, 2013, 06:32:53 pmIn those rare cases a mod can simply delete those posts.This forum can't do timed edits anyway AFAIK

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 10:49:25 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on December 30, 2013, 09:37:26 pmHow often does what happen? People editing their posts or people getting pissed and deleting content?QuoteThat's right, people should not be allowed to edit after a set period of time. The mods have to enforce any rules and so guess what? They have to modify threads and posts and piss people off sometimes. They have to make the forum run smoothly, the members don't do that.QuoteMoral high ground? I don't think it's a moral high ground to just make sure what's written stays as it was originally posted. It can just lead to a mess if you allow editing any post you make for as long as the forum is running. This is publishing. Should a newspaper go back and edit what was published last week, even digitally? No, but they should be able to post retractions and updates. You just should not go mucking around with a historical record, and that's what a forum is, essentially. If you do that, it's no longer a reliable record of member's interactions.QuoteLOL. You have never run a forum have you? Yea, let's remove the rules, Admins, and mods and "let people be... well, human". It's all good, just let people be human. Lets stop taking things so seriously. The place would be trashed in less than a month.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 10:53:37 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 30, 2013, 10:49:25 pmThe forum has had lifetime editing, post deletion, and account deletion (along with all posts) since day one. Last I checked it's running pretty smoothly

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 10:56:48 pm
content: Quote from: pomonabill221 on December 30, 2013, 10:43:02 pm*grin* I recognize the two in question.QuoteNah, don't let that one incident stop you. You can always just politely ignore the nasty responses.If I recall the situation correctly, did you try the suggested telnet commands, and did that give you the result you were looking for?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 10:58:47 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 30, 2013, 10:53:37 pmBut that's not all that I said is it Dave? Didn't you forget something else? Do you have Admins and Mods doing something here? Go ahead and let people be people like the guy said, which means don't change anything they do on the forum, and tell me what happens.Look, you can of course do whatever you want, but I've seen it all on forums, I know everything that can happen and I've seen every possible thing members can do a lot longer than you have I bet. Say, you missed my last suggestion on the search function issue too ...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:00:44 pm
content: Ah, someone just gave a really good reason for posts deletion in another thread.They hit "quote" instead of "modify" to edit their own post, and that created a new post.I do that all the time myself!IMO that's a good enough reason to allow post deletion, otherwise it's just a messy forum and/or more mod work

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:02:14 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 30, 2013, 10:58:47 pmI have just as much forum experience as you do, right back the BBS days 25+ years ago. I know enough to know there is no right answer here.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:03:16 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 30, 2013, 11:00:44 pmUh, that doesn't create a new post, all that does is prepare text for a post. To post it, you have to click "post"

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:05:06 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 30, 2013, 11:02:14 pmI disagree, there is a right answer - you do not allow deletion and editing of posts forever. That's the right answer. Any other option disrupts the historical nature of the forum. That simply cannot be argued, because it's true.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:09:49 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 30, 2013, 11:00:44 pmMmmh, or they can just edit their accidental post to be mostly empty and simply leave a small comment like"Edit: oopsie, accidental post"or some such. Doesn't mess up the thread, does the job, and no extra mod workload.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:13:52 pm
content: The No votes are winning anyway. I've explained my reasons, why don't some of the other no votes add some insight - if I keep this up I'm going to be in the doghouse with the Admin.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:22:51 pm
content: If a user can't delete a post but can edit it, then the information is permanently gone.If a user can delete a post then it is moved to the recycle bin where potentially it can be restored.How long to keep deleted posts for and under what circumstances do you restore it?If a user has deleted a post for what to them is a good reason, then they can just keep deleting the restored post(s) as there is no time limit to delete/edit.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:27:29 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 30, 2013, 10:49:25 pmeither/or as is evident from the from most of the responses thus far but you knew that already it's just cool to quote every sentence of a post you don't agree with and chuck in your 2 centsQuoteAn individual may not do that but other will soon make it apparent that their actions/behaviour is not appreciated. It's what society and its communities have been doing for centuries. Then again tyrants whoknow betterhave also tried to dictate terms to the masses for centuries also so nothing new hereQuoteOh come on!Is that really your main concern here or are you just doing precisely what I was inferring. Historical record, newspapers... It's a forum to come and have a chat with other like minded people, not an archive of various scientific research topics. Most of the threads where this happen are usually off topic and prone to beliefs and opinions. Its rare that a technical discussion is afflicted with these incidents and if it is an individual retracting or modifying their post will usually be to the benefit of that thread if it's considered a technical resourceQuoteNot only had this forum being running for more years than I know, but it appears to have been running smoothly and growing in popularity just the way it is.As for having never run a forum... who cares! That's not my job here and according to your moniker neither is it yours. We are here as participants, without which there is no forum. If self moderation doesn't work in a forum of semi-intelligent members then so be it, that's the collective outcome of it's members and thenaturalevolution of free thinking individuals. If you want to head down the path of a stringent rules driven forum then go start a electronics stack exchange

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:37:15 pm
content: Quote from: GeoffS on December 30, 2013, 11:22:51 pmGeoffS, have you read anything I have said? You are making it way too hard. I guess I'll have to summarize it.A forum is not a Blog, Twitter, or Facebook. It's a record of the interactions between members in an online community<-- this is important. It is for that reason that you do not want to let people delete their posts, or edit beyond a small courtesy window. If you do that, it changes the record of the interaction of the members forever.If you don't like that, then you might as well ask for articles to be submitted for publishing, and make sure they are not posting what they do not want, beforehand, then let people comment of them. i.e. you really do not want a forum after all, for that is what a forum is all about - the recording of the interactions of members for posterity. Yes, even their mistakes and stupidity, for all the world to see.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:38:12 pm
content: Quote from: GeoffS on December 30, 2013, 11:22:51 pmIf a user can delete a post and can edit it, and doesinfact edit it, then the information is still permanently gone.If a user can delete a post and cannot edit it, then this is a silly situation. Allow deletion, but not the rather useful edit button? Seriously? What happened to fixing typos, updating first posts to keep links to relevant topics up to date so new people can find information, etc?QuoteIn the cases where that really is an issue two easy solutions present themselves. 1) warn the user "OI! Don't do that (deleting) again, or else ...". or 2) pre-empt the deletion by restoring the post and then quote the post straight away.Edit:used edit button. Oh yeah, and fixed a typo. Doh!

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:38:50 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 30, 2013, 11:34:48 pmIt was discussed in the Supporters Lounge as that's where the issue was first raised.As far as voting rights go, all users are created equal.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:39:45 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 30, 2013, 11:34:48 pmI need to know how you define "soon" wilfred.QuoteAh, but I said Ididthink there was a right answer, please review my posts.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:43:09 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 30, 2013, 11:37:15 pmI think we get it.What you have to understand is that not everyone has the same opinion you do, and they are just as right as you are. Some people think it's their right to delete their own information, esp on a "community" forum, as opposed to a site that "owns" the information they have entered.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:45:34 pm
content: Quote from: GeoffS on December 30, 2013, 01:08:37 pmIt appears that even moderators can make mistakesA bit more research reveals that you CAN in fact set a limit to the time frame in which you can edit a post. (Who'd have thought to read the manual?)The time can be specified in minutes.Please discuss amongst yourselves.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:46:25 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 30, 2013, 11:34:48 pmThe original posted put it in there, maybe because they thought I would see it. The thread was continued in there because that's where it started. I should have moved it. There is no extra power afforded to the supporters.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:48:10 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 30, 2013, 11:37:15 pmIt's not a matter of what I like, it's entirely up to the forum owner.What's important is a discussion of the pros and cons so Dave can make an informed decision.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:48:41 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 30, 2013, 11:43:09 pmI disagree Dave. I'm sorry, but if you keep telling me it's just my opinion that a forum is a record of the interactions of members for posterity that should not be tampered with, except in the case of rule violations, I'm going to keep telling you you are just plain wrong. You really do not want a forum at all if you think people should be able to delete and edit posts for as long as they want to. But I love ya man anyway, and I do appreciate your work.Anyway, I do think we both have an abundant supply of testosterone.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:49:13 pm
content: Quote from: GeoffS on December 30, 2013, 11:48:10 pmAnd that's just what I've been doing isn't it?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:49:37 pm
content: Quote from: GeoffS on December 30, 2013, 11:45:34 pmYes, I should have checked instead of relying on memory, the option is there.There does not however seem to be an option to enabled editing, but limit deleting to a set time.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:51:30 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 30, 2013, 11:49:37 pmSetting that to a few minutes would be a much nicer solution than disabling deletion.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:52:40 pm
content: all of the arguments for "no" all seem to be predicated on long discussion over time.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:53:00 pm
content: Quote from: GeoffS on December 30, 2013, 11:45:34 pmNice.How about 7 minutes? That's long enough that the reasonable part of your brain has had adequate time to think "mmmh, maybe this was not such a good idea *delete*" and short enough that there statistically speaking are not loads and loads of replies to it. And no loads and loads of replies means that in the event of deletion there are not loads and loads of replies that suddenly are out of context.For the other scenario of "but it's my post and I want to be able to remove the content a week after I posted it" I really suggest people can just use the edit button. That way the user's mission of "must delete content" is still completed, AND for the rest of the thread participants there is still enough coherence left because they can see the edited post. Seems a reasonably balanced solution to me, but that's just my opinion.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:54:34 pm
content: Quote from: mrflibble on December 30, 2013, 11:53:00 pmI'd put my vote in for 10 minutes, a nice even number.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:54:49 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 30, 2013, 11:48:41 pmFine, you've had your say.QuoteDon't tell me what I do and do not want, I'll make up my own mind, thanks.QuoteNope, you have a fixed opinion that simply will not change. But worse, you think youropinionis actually the be-all end-all right answer. Like there is only one obvious right answer to a question that is clearly (IMO) quite subjective.That kinds of thinking works on an the atheist forum you run, when things are either true or they are not true, but it doesn't cut the mustard in this instance I'm afraid.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:57:41 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 30, 2013, 11:54:49 pmAnd you don't?Give me fucking break!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:58:53 pm
content: Quote from: mrflibble on December 30, 2013, 11:53:00 pmI think it needs to be 12-24 hours. So if you post something dumb before you head to sleep, you can remove it when you wake up.QuoteWhat if a user requests to close there account and have all their posts removed?This has happened before, and I think it's their right to ask for that, so I always comply. Unlike some forums, I do have a clause that says the information you enter belongs me *insert evil laugh*In which case, does it make sense not to allow post deletion at any time?

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:58:59 pm
content: Quote from: Fsck on December 30, 2013, 11:54:34 pmI think you'd want it longer than that to allow users to (for example) add attachments or provide additional information.Several hours at least.One woodworking forum I'm on allows a couple of days for editing.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:59:53 pm
content: Quote from: Fsck on December 30, 2013, 11:54:34 pmBut but but, 7 is a nice odd number. And prime to boot! Also, psychologically relevant and all that good shit!My love for prime numbers aside, 10 minutes would do the trick as well.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:02:42 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 30, 2013, 11:57:41 pmNo, I don't, and ironically this situation is clear evidence of that.This forum has allowed post deletion from day dot, because it was my view that was the right thing to do.A few things happened in the last few days and I changed that as trial to see what happens, and I asked for a poll of people views. And essentially have no problem with changing it.If I thought my opinion was god, then I wouldn't be asking and having the discussion, nor would I have changed it.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:02:48 am
content: Quote from: GeoffS on December 30, 2013, 11:58:59 pmmy bad, all this "should we be allowed to delete our posts" has me reading edit as delete.for editing: ideally no ability to remove = only to strike out. sort of like your lab books. (one line through the text) and no limit to addition. the changes should also be dated (and timed for a forum)not sure if that's even possible though on a forum.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:03:01 am
content: Quote from: GeoffS on December 30, 2013, 11:58:59 pmCrap! I am blind!!!I thought it was about delete time limit, not edit time limit. I would vote for a 7 (or 10 minute) limit on DELETE. Please no limit on edit...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:05:19 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 30, 2013, 11:37:15 pmI would argue that being able to keep information up to date by editing to correct errors or summarise very long threads is much more useful to more people than any occasional inconvenience or confusion arising from editing.Why does it matter if the "record of interaction" changes ?Surely useful, accessible, up-to-date information is more important on a forum like this, which is known as a source of information and expertise on a technical subject.I also have no doubt that an inability to edit will discourage some people from making valuable contributions out of concerns of potential issues with current or potential future employers, customers or colleagues.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:08:03 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 31, 2013, 12:02:42 amI'm not feelin' it Dave.QuoteWell stop belittling people like me who DO think they know a damn thing or two about forums. If I think I'm right then just accept it. You don't have to change your mind, but don't belittle others that are of a different mindset. Your just as goddamn hardheaded as I am, and don't try to say otherwise 'cause I've seen it in the past.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:10:11 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff link=topic=24597.msg356814#msg356814But here's the problem: How are you going to make sure that that is in fact why they are editing a post?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:10:40 am
content: Quote from: mrflibble on December 31, 2013, 12:03:01 amI'm pretty sure the forum does not allow that, unless there is a plugin for it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:12:47 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2013, 12:05:19 amI think I'm with Mike on this. These are some of the reasons why I've always allowed deleting and editing.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:14:12 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 31, 2013, 12:12:47 amwould make people who have constantly updated projects or guides a major pain.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:14:43 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 12:10:11 amYou aren't. So what? Why is it a probolem?Disabling a facility that most of the time is useful just in case someone "abuses" it seems rather stupid.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:15:28 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 12:10:11 amYou don't. And on top of that, as an admin you shouldn't really care.If someone is playing funny business with their posts some how that affects people, then you rely the community to spot it and report it if it's a big deal.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:18:06 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2013, 12:14:43 amIt's obvious even to the most casual user isn't it?QuoteNo, it isn't "stupid Mike. People can post corrected info in any thread they want to without editing the past. I've already explained why it's a bad idea, there's no need to type the same thing over and over is there?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:18:19 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 30, 2013, 11:05:06 pmWhy are you so hung up on the idea of a forum being a historical record?I suspect the vast majority of users regard it as an information resource.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:18:27 am
content: Quote from: Fsck on December 31, 2013, 12:14:12 amAnd I think if the poll asked if people should be able to edit their own posts, I think the vast majority would say yes.Essentially there are two separate issues here, but they are related, because if you allow editing of a post, why not deleting?I'm having a hard time coming up with a really compelling reason...

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:19:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 31, 2013, 12:15:28 amMan, we got a MAJOR disconnect going on Dave. A really BIG disconnect on this one. 180 deg disconnect.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:20:23 am
content: As far as the functionality of the forum goes this seems to be yet another red herring.You have years of empirical data on the forum's operation based on the, up 'til now, deletion paradigm and it doesn't take a genius to extrapolate what the forum will be like after the change.Going the other way would be far more difficult because assumptions of chaos and "end of the world" scenarios would ensue.Knowing what it's like now and imagining what it would be like after this change, what scenarios would rise that may be detrimental or advantageous. Would there be a noticeable difference to the average punter or is it yet another part of our lives that have had yet another freedom removed/restriction enforced.If some piss-ant thread in the massive scheme of the world-wide-web becomes a little less intelligible because someone feels better by deletingtheirpost then so be it.If keeping "accurate historical"records is so important then how hard would it be that the delete button doesn't delete the thread but changes the users name to anon or guest

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:22:26 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2013, 12:18:19 amWhy are you so hung up on it not being a historical record? What you want is not a forum, what you want is an error free sanitized list of information. That sure in Hell ain't what a forum is all about. There's nothing wrong with what you want, but a forum ain't the tool for it.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:22:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 30, 2013, 11:58:53 pmMmmh, usually when it's something really dumb, you will get (or rather, I usually get) an internal reminder within that ~7 minute timespan. It basically (IMO) is about balancing what the poster of the to be deleted thread wants vs the rest of the thread participants.You did plonk it out there in a public forum. If you notice it within a few minutes, okay just delete it, none the wiser. If after 12-24 hours people have already seen it and replied to it IMO it is nicer to not delete it. In that case the poster can still edit it and leave a one liner of "disregard old post, needed sleep" or some such.QuoteIn which case personally I would comply as well and do a delete all. Annoying, but such is life. And yes, it still does make sense to not allow post deletion at any time, even if you have as policy that you will comply to requests to nuke an entire account.Even there you could make a script that 1) changes username to "anonymous deleted user" and 2) replace thread text with "removed upon user request". That way you still have a semblance of coherence in the thread and .... google can actually find something with the correct post number after a big nuke fest.To clarify: with thread coherence I mean that after an alteration (delete or edit) other people don't get confused by things that are suddenly waaay out of context. I noticed on this and other forums that multiple deletes is a great way to add extra confusion. On the other hand the same number of edits (basically delete content, leave empty post) is significantly less confusing.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:23:20 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 12:18:06 amFew people looking for a piece of up-to-date info are going to read through a 2000+ post thread to find it.The ability of the OP to keep up-to-date links at the start helps them find it.I would suggest you are in a small minority in your opinion that an accurate historical record is more important than being able to easily find up-to-date information, and your claim that there is a single "right" way is just narrowminded, and not helpful.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:23:37 am
content: Another storm in a tea cup ?Wow, there are some strong opinions on the matter here. As Dave LJ has highlighted, this forum runs pretty well withOUTany draconian measures in place. (I just edited this line ! <- )I am in a position to comment on mass deletion as I had to carry out such in the E4 teardown thread recently. Maybe my reasons will explain why such is sometimes necessary but thankfully such is rare.I posted in a thread that dealt with the teardown of a FLIR E4 thermal camera. The thread began as a simple reverse engineering exercise with which my employer would have no issues. I posted many technical comments on Thermal camera design. The thread then went off-piste and detailed how to hack the E4 with full details of the process. This was followed by requests for hacking information for greater frame rates. The thread had BECOME a 'how to hack a thermal camera' resource. My employer does not wish its employees to be involved in active discussion threads detailing the hacking of such devices. My comments were not the issue, my comments in a hacking thread were !My response to the situation was to quickly delete all my posts in the E4 thread back to a date previous to the hacking event. I effectively removed myself from the hacking time line as I was not actually participating in such. In retrospect I could have changed the posts contents but that provides an index point to track the post in something like the way back machine ? I am no expert on forums and nowhere had I read that I could not delete my posts. Dave is all for freedom of speech and action, and that is what I exercised on that day. Not my finest hour but hey, we are all human and my actions caused no damage to the core topic. I would not wish this forum to become heavy on the rules and light on the fun. I doubt I will ever need to mass delete posts again as it was a very specific issue but I have to wonder how widespread this issue actually is and whether this is some sort of knee jerk reaction to a minor hiccup. Lets not get too anal over this. Some people love lots of rules, others do not. Apply the KISS principle I say

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:24:09 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 12:08:03 amHey, I'll fight for your right to think you are right on anything you want.But that doesn't mean I have to accept it as being right. This is a discussion forum, so you get a discussionQuoteI'm not belittling you or your mindset, I'm simply explaining why I think there is no black and white answer here. Don't take it so personally.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:24:39 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 31, 2013, 12:18:27 ampersonally, I prefer no restrictions on editing or deleting.but if the issue of entire threads going poof due to the OP deletion concerns the majority, then I could personally live with that restriction.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:26:24 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 12:22:26 amI'm not - I just don't beleive many users here regard it as being as important as you seem to believe.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:29:08 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2013, 12:23:20 amSure, if that's is what they are editing the post for. And what if they are making more mistakes than they are correcting? Plus you of course realize that all the quotes from any original posts that are unedited do not change? It just makes a mess of things Mike. Yea - I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. Right, I know, I just make this up out of thin air.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:30:08 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 31, 2013, 12:24:09 amBack to ya on that advice.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:32:22 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 31, 2013, 12:18:27 amISTR this whole thing kicked off due to a post deletion resulting in a whole thread vanishing. If instead that had been "<post removed by user>" instead of complete disappearance, it may have been clearer. And would also help dispel any tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists mistaking deletion for censorship or removal by admin/moderation.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:33:29 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2013, 12:26:24 amWell, we really don't know the answer to that question at this time. And I'll say it right out - sometimes the members don't know what they really want as far as forum functionality goes. They think they do, but there are many ramifications that they don't know how to foresee. Just like some arguments for allowing deletions and edits forever. The members who want this are wrong but don't know it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:33:35 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 12:22:26 amPerhaps not, but in the real world that is a part of what it becomes whether you like it or not. That I think is demonstrably true. And I'd hazard a guess that more people care about using it that way than it being some "historical record" of people bitching about this and that, complete with all their mistakes.Do you really think most people who will visit say the Flir E4 thread care about who said what at what time to whom? No, they care about find the info about hacking their camera.Surely you can at least concede there is some merit to allowing people to edit say their first post for that very reason?If not, how do you propose that be handled? Is the useful info doomed to forever be spread over countless posts? Creating a new super post every time a new bit of info is added?Or should any useful info once found on a forum be copied over to some information wiki instead?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:36:43 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2013, 12:32:22 amActually, that was a mistake on my part. The user in question belonged to a user group (there are different right for each group based on your level) that accidentally had the option set to enabled topic deletion. Usually if the first post in a thread is deleted, the thread doesn't get deleted. If someone wants to verify this again, please do so (I can't being an admin with super powers).

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:39:00 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 12:29:08 amWhich in almost all cases it will beQuoteOthers will spot it and point it outQuoteSo what?QuoteVery occasionally, maybe, but certainly not enough to aywhere near justify a change that would reduce the net usefulness of a forum that has been working just fine for years.I'm sure there are forums where there have been genuine problems caused by editing. I don't think this is one of them.However the ability to edit has demonstrably been of benefit to a significant number of users, and you've yet to provide any convincing argument to change it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:41:01 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 12:29:08 amOnce again, so what? Is it such a big deal?Isn't it better for posters to at least fix their mistakes in their original post?I can't see how having the original mistake, plus all the copied mistakes, is better than just having the copied mistakes?There is nothing that can be done about quoted copies, so that's not worth worrying about.The question is, does editing your own post add value, and I think the answer is a clear yes.Yes, there are some downside if you want to look at it like you do, but I think the pros outweighs the cons.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:41:22 am
content: Historical record ? That is something that I never considered this forum to beTo me as a member, it is a fun place to share knowledge. I don't get paid for the help I give and expect no payment or to be tied into any form of 'legal' agreement regarding who actually owns my Posts. Hell I have enough red tape and anal attitudes in my work place without it pervading eth EEVBlog forum.If people are told that they lose all rights to their posts as it is a Historical (legal?) record of their views and comments, it kind of places a wet blanket on discussions. This is a place for free expression without fear (within legal bounds of course!)Historical record of importance to mankind.....Nah ! that's getting too serious and grandiose for meEveryone has a right to have and share their views, both right and wrong. Lets keep this forum and fun and friendly place to be and not some starchy rule rich nightmare that is so common elsewhere on the NET. This is Aussie DAVE's place after all ..... cool and laid back

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:42:14 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 31, 2013, 12:33:35 amYou might be surprised at the underlying relationships between members. I'd bet you that there's many little cliques and groups you have no idea about, but that's what happens on a forum community. I'd bet there;s a lot of people that search for certain member's posts and so on.QuoteThe first post. If it's that important, there's ways to handle it I suppose, without ruining the record.QuoteLet me think about it, because I do want to help things, even though you have a different view about it. OK?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:45:12 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 31, 2013, 12:33:35 amI don't think there would be any benefit to limiting edits to the first post.For example, one of the links my first post on the E4 thread links to Taucher's menu hack post, which he maintains.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:45:29 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2013, 12:39:00 amSure I have - I just haven't convincedyou. I never achieve 100%.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:45:39 am
content: Quote from: Aurora on December 31, 2013, 12:41:22 amExactly

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:46:52 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2013, 12:32:22 amThat is indeed what I would hope for. Leaving the post with a simple "removed by user" or "removed upon user request" still gets the job done for both sides. Post owner gets post content removed. And for all the other users in the thread things tend to be less out of context, since now people actuallyseethat something has been removed.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:47:09 am
content: A poll on editing pots is here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/should-users-be-able-to-edit-their-own-posts/

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:47:59 am
content: Quote from: Aurora on December 31, 2013, 12:41:22 amSo how does giving a set time period for editing prevent all this fun we're having right now?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:51:26 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 12:47:59 amThis has been explained. It allows you to go back and fix/add information later, because this forum (like it or not) is used an an information resource.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:53:07 am
content: I voted for not allowing deletion but I don't feel strongly about it.I think time limited editing would be a bad idea.If what you post relies on what someone else posted to make sense then quote it. Even if you are able to delete or edit your posts you will not be able to delete quotes and so need to be careful anyway.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:54:42 am
content: Quote from: Aurora on December 31, 2013, 12:41:22 amAs I've said, I think it's clear there is no right or wrong answer here, it is a very subjective on the way you view the forum and your own posts.Anyone who thinks there is a single right answer here is clearly wrong

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:55:44 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 31, 2013, 12:51:26 amAnd I've explained that you've no guarantee that whatever edits are done are even correct, people searching for information will still find wrong information in quoted posts and probably in the thread by other people because correcting the first post (even if it's really correct) does not change anything in the thread as relates to what has already been hashed out. Might just as well post a correction in the thread, or in a new thread.So now I've explained that again.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:56:28 am
content: Quote from: Rufus on December 31, 2013, 12:53:07 amAnd that's the crux of it I think. What's the difference between the two?Why ban deleting, but allow editing which can essentially give the same result as far as the information is concerned?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:59:13 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 12:55:44 amBut once again, so what?Isn't is better to be able to at least correct some information? And if no one has quoted the incorrect stuff, it all gets corrected.If the forum IS used as an information resource (demonstrably true), then how can having some incorrect info in one place, and correct info in another (or multiple) places bebetterthan having correct information in one place?

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:03:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 31, 2013, 12:56:28 amDeleted posts vanish. That can be confusing. An edited post is still there. Maybe without content.Is it possible that the forum software can inserted a message that there was a deleted post?

author: tsmith35
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:05:54 am
content: I think deleting of posts gets done because others that reply can (and often do) quote the original post. Since the OP can't remove the quoted content, they choose to delete the entire post/thread.I think editing should be allowed forever, but give users the ability to delete posts within a finite period of time. Perhaps 24 or 48 hours, enough time for the OP to think things over. After the day or two has gone by, the OP has had a chance to deal with it and the thread is there for eternity.Kudos to you for asking your users for input on this topic.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:06:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 31, 2013, 12:56:28 amEditing => less confusion. Plus post numbers stay the same, so a google search will still find the correct posts after a user decides to scrub all his posts in a thread.Take for example the Flir E4 thread. After Aurora deleted all his posts, when then searching for a certain topic through google you would consistently end up on the wrong page. It took a while before the google bot had crawled the thread again, after which search was back to usable again. Not the end of the world, but instead of deleting all posts, just editing those posts and leaving a simple"content deleted by user"would have been nicer IMO.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:08:06 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 31, 2013, 12:59:13 amBecause you don't really know what's correct or what isn't anyway. You are making a HUGE assumption - that people make valid corrections. How do you know that? It just isn't something you can even prove is true, so I do not understand why you keep clinging to that assumption.Look, I gotta fix dinner soon, but here's the deal.People using a forum should know, or should be told if they don't, that the discussion flows from the first post to the last, and that ideas are changed and new information is presented as it goes on. Things are corrected and mistakes are made, that's the ebb and flow of a forum Dave.That's WHAT A FORUM DOES/IS.It's a flow of discussion to follow and learn from, yes even the mistakes and how they are corrected by others. It's in the thread <--.If you just want correct info up front just allow people their own Blogs with unlimited editing. I guess, hell I don't know, but that sounds like what you really want. It ain't a forum, but it would fullfill your desires.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:08:18 am
content: Isn't the ability to edit and update information at the heart of the very popular Wiki database. Yes it can be corrupted with incorrect information, but at least it may be corrected when the error is discovered.As Mike has stated, it can be great to go back and add useful additional information to a Post to help newbies who stumble upon it. I started the E4 Useful information thread and regularly update certain posts like the serial number VS firmware post. Not being able to do so would create a verbose thread. It is being kept nice and compact by my adding clearly stated Updates and even a regularly updated Index of important content in the first Post. It works well for me and I hope for other members.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/flir-e4-the-useful-information-thread/

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:11:04 am
content: Quote from: mrflibble on December 31, 2013, 01:06:48 amThe way Aurora explained the situation what you suggest would not have satisfied his objective unless the user name had also be deleted or changed

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:14:50 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on December 31, 2013, 01:11:04 amIn such a special case an admin could help and really delete the posts.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:15:44 am
content: mrflibble,Comment noted and lesson learnedI was NOT aware of the implications of my actions when I deleted the posts. As you say. Removing text would have been better. It was a bad evening for me when I did it so not enough brain cells activeI hope I have partly made up for the error with my E4 Useful information thread that aims to take any non hack related E4 useful information and place it in a nice neat and compact thread that is easily searchable.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:20:05 am
content: And here's yet another issue. If you allow editing the first post in a thread forever, what happens when some members make corrections in the first post, and others just post corrections all along the thread (as it's normally done in a forum)?Guess what you have? A confusing set of problems, because members have no idea which "first posts" are the corrected ones, and which first posts in other threads have incorrect information; the corrections being posted all along in the thread. You have confusion. I sure hope members are able to tell which are which, 'cause I sure wouldn't be able to. What if they assume all first posts are correct? Guess you better read the thread - and POW - that's back to what a forum is for.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:21:44 am
content: Is it feasible that contributors of information may be reluctant to post said info if they are unable to modify or retract that information?It's better for it to be up and available for a short time than never at all

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:22:10 am
content: Quote from: sync on December 31, 2013, 01:14:50 amAs long as the recycle option is enabled, posts are not really deleted, just moved, and can be restored by an admin if necessary.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:24:59 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 01:08:06 amWhich in the vast majority of cases will be a valid assumption.QuoteBecause it is more reasonable to assume that an edit will be a correction than introducing an error.QuoteMany users won't care - they just want an answer.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:25:10 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on December 31, 2013, 01:21:44 amSure it is. And if that is the case, they need not enter the forum. I don't know if Dave has modded the TOS of this forum from the default SMF boilerplate, but I'm going to check it. Have you actually read it when you joined? You should go back and read what you actually agreed to when joining this forum AlfBaz.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:29:54 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 01:25:10 amIn which case everyone loses. Users don't get the benefit of that potential user's knowledge, Dave's advertising revenue goes down.Risk of occasional confusion seems a small price to pay.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:30:09 am
content: I should state that I did write to the OP (Mike), Dave and other stakeholders in the E4 thread to explain my actions and request that the deleted posts remain deleted.What was interesting to me was the level of raw hostility that was vented on me when I deleted my E4 posts. Not by the many but by the few. It was obviously a big deal for those persons. In that specific case I ignored the comments as the parties had an axe to grind with me personally. It did indicate that the community is self regulating and if you delete your posts as I did, expect a pretty unpleasant response from some quarters of the forum. I might add that I also received some messages from very understanding members, including DaveLJ, Mike and Mrflibble.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:30:18 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2013, 01:24:59 amAnd what about the whole thread, where people have been reading and discussing a wrong idea or "fact"? You are making a very big assumption busy people will know that the first post is now the right thing to read. Also, it doesn't account for the chaos of some members correcting first posts, and others correcting in the thread, as I just posted above.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:31:20 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2013, 01:29:54 amYou really need to read the TOS of SMF forums.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:32:46 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 01:30:18 amExample ?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:35:39 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2013, 01:32:46 amWhere have you provided examples of your claims Mike? Do not demand of others what you yourself cannot provide.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:39:03 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 31, 2013, 12:56:28 amWhat Sync said - editing leaves an indication that something was there and when it was removed. I would expect people to leave some kind of explanation for the deleting edit.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:42:56 am
content: I made a big mistake in the E4 useful information thread. I tested a Meniscus lens on a simulator and then on a real thermal camera but not an E4. The results showed that the concave side should face the target and I detailed such in the 'how to' post. Some weeks later another member proved that the lens behaved very differently on the E4 as has a different primary lens. I added an update to my original post making it clear that my first recommendation for lens orientation was in error. I don't mind admitting when I get things wrong and at least the newbies will read the post and see what occurred and not incorrectly install the lens. Far better than posting another message later in a thread and referring back to a 'locked' 'how-to' posting that will be for ever more incorrect. No ?Take a look:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/flir-e4-the-useful-information-thread/msg339922/#msg339922

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:48:59 am
content: Quote from: Aurora on December 31, 2013, 01:42:56 amNo.You simply do not know that people will know that the first post is the correct one to look at, when you might have a long list of comments based on wrong assumptions that people might or might not read. There's just no guarantee people will do as some of you expect and know that the first post is correct. And what of the people who don't correct first posts, but do it in the thread? It isn't a clear and logical way to run a forum. Are you going to make a rule that every first post has to be correct from now on. It just won't work.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:57:10 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 01:35:39 am..err earlier in this thread. Please keep up.QuoteA lot of what you are claiming seems to be based on "what if?" scenarios.I have already given one example, the E4 teardown thread, where ability to edit has been genuinely useful to a significant number of users, an Aurora has given another.Here are another couple of examples of threads which have been made more useful by the ability to update information at the starthttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hantek-tekway-dso-hack-get-200mhz-bw-for-free/OK it may not an ideal mechanism compared to some sort of formal thread-summarizing or post-quality filtering syste, but where it's done, it provides genuine benefit to significant numbers of users.Again, can you show any actual examples of where the ability to edit posts has been detrimental to the quality of information available to such an extent that it would be reasonable to restrict editing?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:58:20 am
content: Jeez, 9 pages of this now..Having used and run forums for some years, I think I can pretty safely say that it doesn't matter. Different people use forums different ways, and you can't account for all of them.That said, I would never and have never disallowed editing of posts entirely.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 02:00:53 am
content: xrunner,Very fair comment. This is why it is good to discuss these matters in an open way. I do see your point. I am not a heavy forum user and I am sure it shows. I usually work with data archives on my home computer where I regularly update and correct where and when necessary. Forums are very different environments as you and others have detailed.I will go with the flow on this topic but it has been very interesting reading all the same.Bed is calling me (UK 2am) so off I must trotTTFN

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 02:01:48 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 01:48:59 amAs with anything on the net, it is up to the reader to establish the accuracy or suitability of information they may find. Caveat Browsor.QuoteThere is rarely any guarantee of anything, ever.QuoteLots of rules don't work. People don't read rules. A Forum is not a clear and logical place. Nobody has the time to make it so. People expect that.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 02:03:31 am
content: Dave,For the sake of the argument, if you let a man born and raised in prison (without any sense of freedom because all he has ever known of is bondage in any sense and form*) make the rules for a group of people, what kind of society do you think he would create?My proposal for the forum rules would be to be left open to the users discretion, even if that might create minor problems.If you can restrict the threads deletion privilege (something that can be done only by a request to the moderators, perhaps), just let the regular members to point out any misbehaving users and prohibit the latter ones from having the standard set of privileges.A self-regulated society of knowledgeable people is always a best-balanced one.Regarding post deletions, I have found it very handy a few times when I hit the wrong button, and once when I posted a reply to the wrong thread(!).Now, regarding posts editing, I am sure that you have already guessed what I was going to say!After all, you said it yourself that,last time you checked it's running pretty smoothly.-George* Are you familiar with Plato'sAllegory of the Cave?In the end, the captives not only did oppose to and ridiculed their liberated fellow man (that, after he was released, ascended to and saw the real world, and returned back to the cave to release his fellow men from their delusions (their "chains") they were raised with) but they also felt that "[...] it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death" according to the translated script.Plato put it eloquently in one single sentence: 'It is about our human nature, whether it is enlightened or unenlightened.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 02:03:54 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 31, 2013, 01:58:20 amExactly. And people who insist they are right and everyone else is wrong just come over as arrogant dicks.Night Night.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 02:06:45 am
content: My opinion;Editing should be allowed, but1) the thread starter (and admins, mods) should be allowed to edit the first post always, this could potentially be a special "eternal editing" option given to a specific post by an admin/mod - the first post in many threads is the best place to put pertinent information about something which has evolved through the thread2) subsequent posts by any user should be given a short time-limit for edits, 5 to 10 minutes from the last edit/post creation, in order to fix up any obvious flubs, typos, brain farts that one notices when they re-read what they postedDeletion should be not be allowed except within the editing window, or by special request to admin/mods in which case the post(s) should just be flagged (not obliterated) and displayed as "post deleted" in the thread.I have no idea if SMF supports these, if it doesn't, it should.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 02:13:54 am
content: I really gotta cook din din, but let me be clear for those who are skimming.All I am saying is that posts should not be edited forever - only in the case of clear personal danger or personal information was posted that was unintended.Of course you should correct yourself - but you do that in the thread in forums, not by unending editing of the first post.Sure, I'm being headstrong about this, but I know what I'm talking about. If I wasn't sure about what I'm saying then I'd say so and I'd be open to doing it otherwise. But who here would back off from what they think is the right way of dong things? Mike wouldn't. Dave wouldn't. And newsflash - neither do I

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 02:18:05 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 02:13:54 amSurprisingly, I agree with youA limited (reasonable) time to edit posts after which no editing or deletion allowed.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 02:34:53 am
content: Quote from: GeoffS on December 31, 2013, 02:18:05 amWell my rice is cooking so I have a minute ...GeoffS, I think I might have solution to this first post editing making-sure-it-is-correct issue that would appeal to the powers that be. I will post it tomorrow, provided the thread isn't locked by that time.

author: pomonabill221
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 02:48:59 am
content: Quote from: mrflibble on December 30, 2013, 10:56:48 pmWell it did upset me somewhat, but after thinking about it and realizing that it shouldn't upset me too much, I did get over it and my life is going on!Yes, I have been "playing around" with telnet/rset with the recommendations that you gave me, and other than finding that I need to leave out the "int32" entry, I have been trying different mbox sizes, and finding that it works great! Thank You!When I leave the "int32" portion in, rset returns "returned bad data" so I tried leaving out the int32 and it worked!!!!Now I just want to make my changes permanent....I even tried the show dead pixels... worked first time, then was able to shut it off without restarting. VERY interesting and informative to see the dead pixels!Hey, I just edited this post!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 02:53:16 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 01:08:06 amCome on, you know very well that in the vast majority of cases people will fix corrections and get it right. If it's wrong people can tell them and they can fix it again. Ultimately it's almost always going to edit toward a more correct version. That human nature of people who contribute to these forums.QuoteSo what?QuoteYes, but it's also MORE than that!QuotePeople contribute to forums instead of starting their own blog, for many reasons. The social interaction, the learning from others, the instant feedback etc. etc. That social interaction draws peopel into using forums and sharing information that they otherwise wouldn't share. The result is that forums become defacto information references whether you like it or not.Putting your fingers in your ears and crying that's not what forums are about is to deny the reality of the situation.Of course you can run a forum and force it be that way if you want, but given that this forum has formed the other way, as a bit of an information resource, it would be wrong to make such a fundamental change.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 02:57:21 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 01:48:59 amBut lots of people do, and they can reliably point people who don't know back that that thread as the best central resource for the latest info.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 02:59:58 am
content: Oh Dave come on - you like arguing just as much as the next guy. I can tell you are not wanting to consider I'm right because of the way you are responding. You are just spitting out arguments to bolster your position in spite of what I've said. Sure you can do that if you so desire, but it isn't a pretty sight in front of the forum.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 03:05:11 am
content: Executive decision time.1) No one has shown a really compelling case for why editing or deleting should be stopped over the proven benefits of always allowing editing, as has always been the case and people are used to on this forum.2) It's about 50/50 on the poll to delete your own own posts (editing aside). No one has provided a really compelling reason for why editing should always be allowed, but not allow deletions. So the status quo should remain here.3) The poll on being able to edit your own posts is vastly in favour of favour of editing forever. No contest.So I will re-enable the option to delete your own posts as it's always been.But as always, I am open to compelling reasons. But given that none have been presented so far, I don't expect any to come along.Remember, this is not a new forum, it is well established forum that has always allowed editing and deletion.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 03:09:58 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 02:59:58 amYes, I do.QuoteWrong. You have simply not provided a compelling case to change the forum from the way it's ways worked. The end.And considering that you are essentially the only one screaming hard on this front, there is even less weight there.WTF did you think I made the trial change for and started this thread for if my intention was not to consider the other case? Do you think I'm just trolling for arguments?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 03:15:35 am
content: Geez dude I was willing to let it die after your decision above but fuck it - if you want to keep it on, I'm game, but that just proves my point. You love to argue and you are as bull headed as I seem to you. You should be setting an example by your actions.You are acting like a bully and should not belittle members who are trying to honestly help. I'm not the least bit intimidated by you so knock it off.Now, are you going to lock this mess or are you going to take it to 50 pages?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 03:31:39 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 03:15:35 amI am.I saw a potential issue on the forum, so I trialled a change and asked for discussion about it and added polls to get votes.Then based on the feedback I made a decision toleave things as they have always been.QuoteA bully because I clarified an incorrect assertion of my intentions on your part?QuoteNope, I'll continue the discussion, because I'm still open to compelling reasons why I should change the way for the forum works.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 03:38:18 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 31, 2013, 03:31:39 amNot those actions - the actions I'm talking about are the way you respond to people who disagree with you. It's a bullying sort of response.QuoteSee above ...QuoteI'm very disappointed with your attitude towards members who contribute here. I've mailed you an item for your show at no small expense, and also gave my time to design some graphics for this very forum, and yet you belittle me for taking a stand. You should not agree with me for doing those things, but for cripes sake, can I have a little respect? Why are you treating me this way?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 03:49:32 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 03:38:18 amI seriously do not understand why you are taking this so personally?I mean no disrespect with any post I make, if people feel that I am, then I'm sorry, but that is a mistaken assumption on their part about my intentions.This is a discussion about a very important operational part of this forum, and I am simply expressing and explaining my views, as I always do, and if I see someone make a case that I think is flawed them I will try to explain why.QuoteI don't see a single other person complaining about the way I've handled this or replied, if people have an issue with the way I've replied to them, please tell me publicly here (preferred) or in private if you prefer. In fact, (and don't take this as bullying, I'm just stating a fact) all I have gotten is private messages concerning your attitude in this thread.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 03:53:34 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 31, 2013, 03:31:39 amTo be honest, I'm quite content now to know that there is a major difference at the underlying mechanism at the deleted posts, cause now its just moved to a reserved places not readable for normal members, not like previous condition where its gone forever, or needs lots of efforts to recover it.Should any disputes or problems caused by post deletion, the Mods can always jump in to help by recovering it, thats all I need.CMIIWPS :If I have a huge interest at certain threads/posts/posters, especially at hot thread, I always do "periodically" offline thread backup all the time, for example like at the E4 thread.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 03:56:43 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on December 31, 2013, 03:53:34 amYes. All deleted posts are now saved in a section only available to mods, and we can restore them if needed.This is a certainly a good change.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 03:59:02 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 31, 2013, 03:49:32 amAnd I can say the exact same thing back to YOU.QuoteThen reply a little more like you care about others ideas especially when they disagree with you, and you have failed to convince them. Just acknowledge their opinion and say you'll consider it. That's all you really have to do.QuoteWell I'm the main person who's been debating you, so I'm the one who has suffered your attitude. Why would anyone else complain when they haven't tried to debate it as hard as I have The harder I try, the worse you act in return.I've got PMs about the thread too, not in your favor. So now what Dave?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 04:07:54 am
content: Hasn't this gone on long enough?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 04:13:17 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 03:59:02 amHave I complained about the way you've spoken to me?Have I used swear words?Have I claimed you have belittled me, or am not showing you enough respect?No, I have done none of those thing. The only one taking this personally is you.If you think my simply replying to your comments in a discussion forum is taking things "personally", then fine, I'll stop replying to your comments. Ok?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 04:15:03 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on December 31, 2013, 04:07:54 amThe supposed person argument with xrunner? Yes.The discussion on the relative merits of changing the forum, no.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 04:16:50 am
content: Good. You two are just chasing each other's tails now. Let's move on to sniffing each other's asses, and then you can both sit down to a nice chew toy, okay?

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 04:40:06 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 01:08:06 amWhat you're describing is just the basic concept behind the normal functionality of a message board. To say that it can only function properly in that way is like saying a car jack can only be used for lifting cars.As Dave and Mike have already pointed out, we - the collective majority - have been using this particular forum in a slightly different way. And it seems to me that particular way has not only led to the forum flourishing and growing, but that conceptually - it's a perfect fit for the EE tinkering mentality.I say: it's already turned on AND taken apart - all is well.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:00:30 am
content: Quote from: marmad on December 31, 2013, 04:40:06 amI don't think any forum or such is a perfect fit for any community. The forum is far from perfect in fact. It it was perfect then it would cater for everyone needs and desires. But that's not really practical, I have yet to see a system in existence that does that.What xrunner and some others have said, certainly has merit in it's own way, but is it abetterway to run this forum? I don't think anyone has given anything close to a compelling argument that it would be. Just some (in xrunners argument it appears) idealistic historical record thing that relies too much on niche "what if" arguments. There are just too many positives for the freedom afforded by the forum currently offers.

author: JoannaK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:02:24 am
content: I know I'm late with this.. but IMHO the old posts are what they are, I see no benefit of the user-deleting the posts (or entire threads) haphazardly. I know some people try to delete their totally stupid FB comments or tweets, but the reality it's quite desperate ...

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:06:01 am
content: IMO it's been working fine as it is, so screw ideological arguments and just don't fix what ain't broke! Sure, a couple people have complained, but a couple people will always complain. Hell, if only acoupleEEVbloggers complain about something you know you're doing well.I see the point about people farting out asinine, trollish comments and flamebait and then deleting them to make it look like they didn't, but I think I've only seen that here once or twice. Usually, the ensuing argument makes sure everybody can see who was an ass...

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:14:31 am
content: xrunner sure seems upset that he was belittled, so I just had to go back through the thread to see what horrendous affront Dave gave, but as far as I can see in this thread, he has been quite accepting of his opinion, far more patient than I would have been for sure, he just doesn't agree with it, in no way can I see has DLJ "belittled" him.In fact, if there was any belittling going on, I think it was xrunner with "I know everything that can happen and I've seen every possible thing members can do a lot longer than you have I bet" and subsequent similar statements. Is this one of those culture things between US and UK/AU/NZ where they find something offensive that we find perfectly normal (less common vice-versa)?Anyway to return to topic; the main reason for not allowing edits (and I include deletion) is to make it easier to follow a discussion, but the main reason for allowing edits (and I include deletion) is to make it easier to correct your flubs, and to provide easy to get current information in the first post of a thread which is a very common practice on almost any technical forum where a long-running project is being documented in a thread.A short window where post deletion and editing is allowed, and allowing the editing of the first post (or especially ordained posts) permanently, is a decent compromise between the two positions.But, is it really broken how it is at the moment (don't fix what's not broke), allowing no limits at all? Maybe... I know I got a bit confused when I looked through the flir thread once after those deletions. But is pretty much a one-off occurrence really cause for alarm? Eh, probably not if you ask me.Whatever the case, of course deletion and editing is ALWAYS possible, even if it's just admin/mod that can do it, they are all reasonable people here who would almost certainly do so if somebody asked.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:25:49 am
content: Quote from: JoannaK on December 31, 2013, 05:02:24 amOnly mods can delete entire threads, that was an error in the configuration in this instance.Some benefits to deleted have put forward. But it's also about simply having the choice. But that's whole "who owns the data" argument...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:29:52 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on December 31, 2013, 05:14:31 amIt might very well be. But that option is not in the forum, it would have to be custom added.

author: MrAureliusR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:40:02 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 30, 2013, 11:05:06 pmReally? Because this forum seems to have been running perfectly smoothly up to now.I really think that editing should be allowed indefinitely, if some idiot takes back something they said then that's a black mark on them anyway. Don't fix it if it ain't broken!!!

author: MrAureliusR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:58:18 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 12:42:14 amThis isn't 4chan for gods sake. At the risk of starting another argument with a brick wall, this is supposed to be a fun place to come and discuss our passion, which is electronics.I guess, considering you know SO much about forums xrunner, you've never seen a community moderate itself? You believe that humans are so innately stupid that we need to lock them in pens and only allow them certain freedoms? I know that's an extreme example but essentially you're saying for reason x y or z we need to stop people from participating in open, free discussion -- which is NEVER a good thing. EVER. Let the trolls rant and rave and delete their posts a minute later -- who fucking cares?!?! The valuable information from legit members who actually care and love this forum will always be there -- honestly, this is making a mountain of a molehill.Quote from: c4757p on December 31, 2013, 05:06:01 amOnce again, c4757p to the rescueThis is my last word on the subject or else I'm going to really explode, and I haven't even gotten to the last pages yet.

author: johnwa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 07:30:11 am
content: Well, this definitely looks like a contentious topic, which I will try to stay out of, other than to say I do think it is preferable to retain a record of exactly what was said, rather than having inconvenient posts disappear down the 'memory hole'...On the subject of editing posts, one solution I have seen on other forums is to allow people to append content to their own posts, but always keeping the original text in place (possibly with strikeout). This allows updates, corrections, and acknowledgement of silly typos, while still preserving the original post.I do not know how hard this would be to implement, but I would be prepared to investigate if other members deemed it worthwhile.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 07:43:50 am
content: My fellow EEVBloggers, please do not confuse this specific forum with anymainstreamdiscussion boards you might know of. In this forum even 'sensitive' threads about politics, religion, sports, etc., can go (and have gone) on and on forever without the threads diminishing to a storm of personal attacks or even worse, and with a little or even with no moderation at all thanks tothe qualityof the majority of the contributors. Contributors who are not over here to unload their personal problems to other people; who are able of disagreeing without being disagreeable; who are able to protect those who cannot defend themselves by not attacking them with emotional arguments or by stopping others who do. Contributors who can regulate the discussion flow with a little or without external help at all. Contributors who seem to care about this place.On the other hand, the vast majority of the mainstream fora cannot handle any discussion of such sensitive matters without any heavy moderation, user restrictions or other measures. That is because the vast majority of our fellow people have been conditioned from their early age to be functioning under heavy restrictions (in order to become easily controllable by those who are going to be taking advantage of them throughout their lives); under such heavy restrictions that they cannot anymore think of a life without any 'beneficial' restrictions. The other ones of course, who know pretty well where they stand, see the restrictions this way:--Why should Ichooseto wear a pair of handcuffs, even if they seem to be fluffy, silky, fragranced and trendy, according to the 'Cosy handcuffs, as seen on TV' marketing campaign?So, hypothetically, by putting a few restriction for some people to feel 'at home' would not some other people who do not appreciate restrictions might think that the time came for them to move on? But if the majority of the latter ones departed, whose contributions would the former ones be able to be enjoying any more at that place they made? Would they still remain at the place they created or would they move on to another fine forum to ask again that new fine place to also impose the restrictions they love to have?The answer is straightforward: If you really want to help this place, you will have to accept it as it was when you found it and attracted you, and try to be yourselves the ones who will protect it by any occasional invaders; you will realise that you will not be left alone at these times.Returning to the point we begun from, please do not confuse this specific forum with any mainstream discussions boards you might know of. The people this place has initially attracted made it what it became, which is exactly what attracted you; and all this happened without any of the restrictions that are now being discussed to be imposed.My question is:Birds do never tend to flock around a dried up water hole. Do you really want to reduce this place to dried up water hole?-George

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 09:13:22 am
content: i think in case of deleting just leave the post marker there and mark it as deleted or disable it completly if bullshit or something else is posted live with it ffs you cant erase what you say in real life too

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 09:15:35 am
content: Thanks Dave for following a democratic process.As a recently joined member I relish the chance to have forum input and I have the age and wisdom to be careful with what I post....once said hard to take back!However a post with any technical detail must be able to be edited for accuracy sake.Edit: Remove button returned..Thanks.Even the Remove post button that has recently been removed, now does not allow a poster to clean up a thread. I have seen marmad do it to good effect.I saw your explanation that if the first post of a thread was removed the whole thread was lost. That must not happen!If the OP is flaming or flamed in a thread then the member should be censored, but we must not loose the thread.Maybe with GOOD reason the OP having contacted you and/or Moderators the thread be CLOSED or LOCKED.Time to get the Geeks in to tweak Forum code.Thanks for the chance to input.TautechBTW I was able to remove this post from the wrong thread and place it in the correct one!Just wonder what would have happened to my vote? For....of course

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 09:19:46 am
content: Does SMF stored the 1st original "unedited" post if the poster edited it ?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 09:26:16 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on December 31, 2013, 09:19:46 amNope. It will only make a snapshot copy once you hit delete. There is no ability to see or recover edits.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 09:27:02 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on December 31, 2013, 09:19:46 amNo, there's nothing special about the first post as far as SMF is concerned.[bit slow in responding]

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 10:20:39 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 31, 2013, 09:57:44 amAnd as you can no longer delete a post - your resolutions are on the permanent record

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 11:03:57 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 02:13:54 amYouthinkyou know what you're talking about.Ithinkheadstrong means pig-headed and obstinate.Both of us could be wrong.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 11:31:38 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 31, 2013, 09:57:44 amYep, that's correct!

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 11:35:34 am
content: All I can say is that I have found this thread to be very enlightening as a non mainstream forum user. I now understand many of the issues surrounding post deletion and editing. I am very pleased that Dave has decided to maintain the Status Quo as it does seem to work OK. Even my major post self deletion event in the E4 thread did not bring the sky crashing down on us and that was a VERY special case. I like the idea of deleted posts leaving a 'place marker' as one serious result of my deletions was to mess up Mike and Tauchers links to crucial posts that they had made. Those Gents had to edit their links to take account of the change in message numbers. I am sorry for that and told them so. As stated, the brain cells were asleep that evening !If noting else, this thread has aired the topic well and will hopefully be read by many. If I had read such a thread before my actions in the E4 thread, I would have done it differently and via the moderators who could have advised me of the best course of action to achieve the required objective.I hope that xrunner will stick around and that feathers become unruffled in time. This is normally a very friendly forum and I have seen no bullying or belittlement in this threads from Dave. When polarised views collide, there will always be some sparks but I feel confident that no malice is intended in this case by either party.Party On Dudes and be excellent to each other

author: Terabyte2007
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 02:23:24 pm
content: I feel you should be able to edit or delete your posts for a short period of time. There are times when you make a technical mistake or mis-quote someone else only to realize after posting you made the mistake. I think a fair time period would be maybe an hour, after that it becomes the permanent record.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:02:59 pm
content: heres a hint to all of those bitcing about post deletion.if someone says something that you really want to hold them to, simply hit the "quote" button when you reply. they can edit the shit out of their posts, but will never be able to edit their quoted post from your reply (unless they have mod/admin permissions)problem solved.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:04:17 pm
content: Quote from: deth502 on December 31, 2013, 05:02:59 pmYou mean the community can regulate itself? Shocking idea.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:15:22 pm
content: Quote from: deth502 on December 31, 2013, 05:02:59 pmYou do realize of course that if I quote a member, that I can modify whatever text is in the quote? I can change it to suit what ever I want to make you appear to have said. So now you see the problem. If you quote text from member A, and they later modify it, and another member modifies the quote too, who's to say what was really said in the first place? If members are editing their posts with no time frame and anywhere they want to, it will be a very confusing and messy place.Bad idea.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:23:54 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 31, 2013, 05:04:17 pmNewsflash - it doesn't regulate itself now. Haven't you ever observed the Global Mods here locking posts and other actions? You live in a dream world.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:26:53 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 05:23:54 pm*sigh*I don't live in a dream world, I've run and moderated forums for years. Take the ad hominem somewhere else.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:28:36 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 05:15:22 pmits still there as a matter of record. and how about this- if your that worried about someone changing your quote and making it look like you said something you didnt, then dont be a little fucking bitch going around deleting your posts. again, problem solved.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:29:03 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 31, 2013, 05:26:53 pmYes you do if you believe this forum regulates itself. You said not me. It's simply not the least bit true. It's false.Just keep clicking your ruby slippers together and repeat"Xrunner doesn't know what he's talking about ... Xrunner doesn't know what he's talking about ..."

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:30:01 pm
content: Quote from: deth502 on December 31, 2013, 05:28:36 pmYou clearly didn't understand what I was trying to explain, unfortunately.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:31:10 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 31, 2013, 05:26:53 pmis it ad hominem? i thought it was ad hominen. so ive been spelling it wrong this whole time.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:31:56 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 05:30:01 pmyou clearly dont want to hear anything but yourself.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:33:13 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 05:29:03 pmIt does to a degree, as does any other active forum.QuoteI know what I'm talking about. You know what you're talking about. They're two different things, and in many ways incompatible. I suggest you learn to live with the world not being shaped by your hands alone.Now that you've aired your opinion out for quite some time, may I give you some assistance in sticking it back in its usual warm, sweaty storage location?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:33:53 pm
content: Quote from: deth502 on December 31, 2013, 05:31:56 pmOh I hear every person here, that's why I'm taking the time to explain what appears to be the unexplainable.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:34:09 pm
content: Not again...

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:35:12 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 05:29:03 pmXrunner has cast Monkeh as Dorothy, and Dave is clearly the Wonderful Wizard of Oz.As their principal adversary presumably xrunner is the Wicked Witch of the West?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:38:13 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 31, 2013, 05:33:13 pmAnd to the degree it doesn't, the moderators have to come into play. So I'm exactly right - this forum is not self regulating.QuoteYou know it's amazing - people take advice here all the time about electronics without all the huff and puff. But for some weird reason when it comes to the forum, they just won't put up with a person who has experience. I'm going to have to investigate the psychology behind that phenomenon.QuoteOh now be nice, you know you have to set an example of how to self-regulate ...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:39:11 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 05:38:13 pmAnd your experience is the only valid experience?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:39:32 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on December 31, 2013, 05:35:12 pmPerhaps, but don't you remember there was no wizard, just an old man behind a curtain who had no real power.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:42:14 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 31, 2013, 05:39:11 pmIt certainly one valid experience which has many years backing it up. You are free to explain yours as well. I have no power here, nothing I say will change much, so I don't know why so many are reacting the way they are. If you don't want to read my posts then ... don't.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:47:10 pm
content: Quote from: MonkehQuote from: XrunnerQuote from: SatanQuote from: God

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:51:29 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 05:39:32 pmIn the book.In real life, Dave has ultimate power over this forum, yet chooses to operate it democratically, despite the occasional obnoxious individual who thinks he should be the one making the decisions.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:53:30 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on December 31, 2013, 05:47:10 pmSee! He's modding quotes!

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:54:11 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on December 31, 2013, 05:47:10 pmMummy, mummy, I didn't say that!

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:55:05 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on December 31, 2013, 05:51:29 pmOh bullpuckey.All I've done is give suggestions and advice. Nobody has to read it or respond to it. So please - spare me.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:58:10 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 05:55:05 pmholy fuck dude, this thread is now 14 pages of MOSTLY you and ppl responding to YOUR posts.does your dr know youre off your meds?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 06:02:31 pm
content: Quote from: deth502 on December 31, 2013, 05:58:10 pmAnd tell me - who's forcing them to respond? I must have powers far beyond what I know about, to have such an ability.Who's forcing YOU to respond deth502? You must want to or else I'm controlling your brain from over the internets.Oh crap, my cat just threw up. I need to clean that, plus do some things for my mother.I'll catch up on the string of insults when I get home.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 06:05:49 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 06:02:31 pmyou clearly are in a world of your own. you bitch and moan that no one is responding to your posts, i respond to your post, and you bitch some more. are you just trolling, or are you seriously fucking retarded? every word you are saying contradicts the last.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 06:13:46 pm
content: Quote from: deth502 on December 31, 2013, 06:05:49 pmClearly this thread has jumped theblood/brain barrierspace/time continuum anddevolved into a future demonstration of the pros and cons of editing...

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 06:25:21 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 06:02:31 pmEven the cat is getting sick of this...Do we need a new poll on whether to cap the number of posts a single forum member can make to the same thread within a given time period?

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 08:53:26 pm
content: Self censored. See following post.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 10:33:41 pm
content: ooooooo nice fireworks :-)

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 10:38:12 pm
content: Quote from: liquibyte on December 31, 2013, 08:53:26 pmnow, i dont have too much electronics knowledge, i seem to be doomed to permanent "beginner" status. in that respect, i dont have too much to add, but i do what i can. i have noticed that sometimes ppl can get quite short here, so seeing as im good at asshole, i try to give it back to them (possibly sometimes erroneously, as was pondered in the beginning of this thread). idk, i just hope that it might help bring a little more civility. maybe im just making trouble, idk, but we were all beginners at some point, imo, id rather answer the same stupid question every day than to make ppl feel unwelcome or stupid for asking. so, looking through my profile, i might appear to be a trouble maker who just likes to argue as well, so im inclined to give xrunner the benefit of the doubtthats said, i laughed my ass of reading this!! lol. good post!

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 10:39:12 pm
content: OK first I want to apologize to any and all for my attitude. I have very strong views about forum management and express it strongly. So I'm sorry for the way I came across. I have done good here also so please take that into account. If you deem a 72 hour ban appropriate, then I would understand.My suggestion to Dave is to assign a board moderator to each board to take the load off of him and the Global mods. There are enough members with proven track records that I'm sure you could get volunteers to do what I propose.I propose to limit initial edits to 1 hour, to account for natural human mistakes. Then, if a post needs a technical correction (not a simple change of words for added color) members submit the technical correction to the board moderator. If he/she deems it proper, they edit the post and put in a notice that posts quotedafterthe notice may contain errors. The notice could be in a different color and be the same boilerplate for all boards.The board mods would NOT moderate anyone's demeanor, they would just handle this housekeeping task. In this way it would provide a common means of technical corrections, with proper notices, and prevent wholesale binge edits or retribution edits, if that were to occur.Thank you for the forum and for listening to my suggestion.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 11:02:48 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 10:39:12 pmI assumed your solution would be technical :-(Sorry, but I can't see how throwing 24/7 manpower at a problem that really isn't that major problem anyway is a good idea.As has been pointed out in this thread somewhere I'm sure, the number of people who deliberately edit things to cause trouble (which would need a moderator to stop) are very few. So probably 99% of the new moderators time would be wasted.And it doesn't stop your concern about inaccurate technical information slipping through, as the moderators can't possibly read all the information and confirm it right.Also, when you put bottle necks in placem that might stop people from bothering to clean up and do small edits to their technical posts, they might think "geeze, I have to bother a moderator for this? and it's gotta be approved?, well I just won't bother."I think it's much better to simply allow the edits as-is, and rely on the community to report any funny business. That way, moderators valuable time are only spent dealing with at least potentially troublesome issues, and not wasted on stuff that's genuine.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 11:07:57 pm
content: OK, but can you check the search again? As I said, it's only returning 30 results, and always only giving a single page of results. I really think something is set wrong - try it yourself if you don't believe me. With that I'll get back to electronics.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 11:33:48 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on December 31, 2013, 11:30:10 pmIn that case, use the 'Report to Moderator' button and ask one of the moderators to do it for you. We're here to help, not just to keep you in line

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 11:39:29 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 11:07:57 pmOk, yes. It's set correct, so must be some sort of bug?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 11:43:19 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 31, 2013, 11:39:29 pmDave, I just checked my forum here -http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.phpI had the same settings and got the same results as here, which surprised me.But I got it to work, heres how -I first searched for "jesus" and got 30 results only.I set the 1200 default to 0 for unlimited results - it returned 63 pages when I searched for "jesus".I then set it back to 1200, and got more than the 30 results the first time. Some flag got set that wasn't set to begin with - try it here.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 11:46:58 pm
content: When I do a search for 'eevblog', it returns a single page but of 100 entries.Dave, what is the Search Method set to in Admin -> Forum -> Search methods ?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 11:55:33 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 11:43:19 pmTried it, no joy :-(

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 11:56:39 pm
content: "no index" makes no difference either.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 11:58:11 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 31, 2013, 11:55:33 pmWhat happens when you set it to 0 for unlimited results?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 11:58:53 pm
content: Oh, hang on, changes don't get applied in my browser, something is funny...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 11:59:11 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 31, 2013, 11:58:11 pmSame thing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 12:01:05 am
content: Sorry, I have tried all combination of setting and cycling, and nothing works. I'm out of ideas.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 12:02:24 am
content: There's anSMF bug reportfor this symptom which seems to indicate that it will be reviewed in a future release.This seems a bit strange is xrunner is getting proper search pagination.My test database is too small to perform useful searches on

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 12:03:18 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 01, 2014, 12:01:05 amHmmm. OK I'll ask around over at the SMF support forum.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 07:08:40 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 01, 2014, 03:41:23 amThe reason I have always allowed deletion and editing because I believe that if you go to the trouble to contribute information to forum, then it's your information, and you should have the right the delete it if you so chose. I don't own your data, you do. This is not some permanent recording and archive service.If someone wants to capture your data once you put it and archive, well that's up to them, but that's not what I do.Some like xrunner believe that once you say something, it should be documented forever, to be held against you forever. You said it, you live with the consequences.That might have been the case pre-digital information revolution, if you say published a letter to the editor in a newspaper, a million copies are made and you can't take it back. There was no mechanism to take it back. But with digital communications (esp on a single site like this, assuming no one archives it) you do have the ability to go and take back what you said if you so desire. Should that be allowed? I think so, yes.It's like you holding up a sign on the sidewalk or noticeboard. People can see it until you decide to take it away. And anyone is free to photograph you holding up the sign if they want to archive it.So I view this forum more like a noticeboard than the national archives.Now, just like saying something in public (that's not recorded), you can't take back that X number of people heard you say that, but really, it's the same thing, you are just "unrecording" it by deleting it. I think you should have that right if it's available through to mechanism you used.Of course, other people should always also have the right to archive anything you say publicly, and that is a risk you take with saying anything in public or on this forum.Hmm, all that probably doesn't make much sense...

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 11:40:23 am
content: Quotemakes sense to me. although im not arguing the point at all, im just saying that i, personally, dont foresee the need to delete a post. probably just because of my bull headed stubbornness, but i stand by what i say. if something i say  is blatantly wrong and/or makes me look like an idiot, i have no problem owning it. although, like you said, i wouldnt want to take the ability away from someone else who does choose to use it.Quotenow, i cant recall for sure, as i usually just skim at best, then just click ok, but from what ive seen, most message boards as a part of the user agreement you agree to when signing up specifically states that once something is posted,it becomes property ofyou give full rights to that information to the board. im just curious if the user agreement here has something like that in it?frankly, i dont know how you do it. i think if it were me id have been fed up with some ppl in this thread a long time ago and would have started swinging the ban hammer.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 12:36:30 pm
content: Quote from: deth502 on January 01, 2014, 11:40:23 amNope!There are just some rules about playing nice.But I should update this to state that it's not my data, and you may chose to remove it at any time.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 03:53:54 pm
content: I want to apologize to everyone here and explain why I've edited my above post. What I did and what I said were harsh but I believe enough of the right people have read it to get my point across. This is why being able to edit things are a good idea and I think that Dave's stance on it are valid and justified. What you say on the net never really goes away, there's a copy somewhere always. No one should have to live with a falsehood or an attack forever and I'll be the first to admit that I've been guilty of both in the past.To xrunner, I apologize for doing what I did but I wanted to show you that, even with very little to go on, your life can be exposed in ways you never imagined. I thought for quite some time before I decided to take this action and then again for longer for self censoring. You seem to be intelligent enough to understand the consequences and repercussions of the internet and information. Let us now be friends here or barring that, civil.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 03:57:02 pm
content: Quote from: liquibyte on January 01, 2014, 03:53:54 pmSure, let's move forward. Thanks for your input to this thread and topic.Have a Happy New Year!

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 04:19:48 pm
content: Yay ! Peace and harmony restoredHappy New Year to allMay we all have a happy, healthy and prosperous 2014.

author: npelov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 01:28:30 pm
content: Deleting post and deleting thread should have been 2 different options. It's issue of the forum (phpbb?). Just leave it disabled and if someone wants to delete their own post will replace it's contents with <deleted>. The info in the thread could be too valuable to be lost.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 02:00:48 pm
content: Quote from: npelov on January 02, 2014, 01:28:30 pmDave already made the decision to keep things as they were (both edit and delete enabled). Fine by me since things have worked well enough so far.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 04:21:29 am
content: Case in point: I responded to a request from someone about information on a brand of multimeters and when I return later to read the forum the thread was deleted by the OP. I will stop participating here if my time is wasted by assholes like that. Make it so people can't delete a thread once it is replied to or start seeing less people posting. Why waste our time?

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 04:25:02 am
content: I think threads shouldn't be deletable, dunno if the forum can accommodate that though.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 04:45:20 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on January 08, 2014, 04:21:29 amCare to identify the asshole in question to prevent others from wasting time?

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 05:10:02 am
content: Currently, users are not be able to delete a topic/thread unless there is only one post and it belongs to the user.Users can delete/edit a post with the exception of the first post in a thread which cannot be deleted.

author: Teneyes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 05:22:47 am
content: The error you get deleting the 1st post--------------------------------------------An Error Has Occurred!You cannot delete your own topics in this board. Check to make sure this topic wasn't just moved to another board.--------------------------------------------------------Note: I had saved the 2 posts before I try

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 10:52:01 am
content: Quote from: Teneyes on January 08, 2014, 05:22:47 amThanks for the correction.

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 11:04:35 pm
content: Some forums have a time limit after an initial post, when the time expires the post can no longer be edited. The idea with editing is just for those cases where there are glaring typos or someone hit post instead of preview and in these cases that's something usually noticed right away.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 11:53:48 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 01, 2014, 03:41:23 amRight! This forum is not the forum software of a company who wants to maximize their shareholder value! It is not necessary to catch our posts to collect a timeline and perfect profile of our habits and arguments.This is Dave's forum and he is very progressive and up-to-date with his understanding:Quote from: EEVblog on January 01, 2014, 07:08:40 amThank you!The usage of "the internet" evolves. This includes also the usage of forum software. It is absolutely necessary that normal posts about stuff vanishes after some time. In five, ten or fifteen years it is absolutely unnecessary somebody can read my old posts about "Stealing: The double standard?"! After some time nobody can catch the sense of this discussion. (And maybe, in five or then years, I have another position about this topic.)Statements and positions change with time. "The internet" needs the ability to forget. And a privately owned forum like this can pave the way.