eevBLAB 111 - The TMA Banning x1/x10 Switchable Probes? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 10:02:56 am
content: The Test and Measurement Alliance have announced an effective ban on x1/x10 switchable scope probes with all new oscilloscopes going forward from Q3 2023. Do you agree?Signatories include practically every oscilloscope manufacturer! Keysight, Tektronix, Rohde & Schwarz, Lecroy, GW Instek, Siglent, Rigol, National Instruments, Hantek, Owon, Micsig and PicoScope.

author: ssander
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 10:41:58 am
content: Early April Fools

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 10:46:05 am
content: Quote from: ssander on March 31, 2023, 10:41:58 amCould be, but an April Fools should make you feel like a fool for believing something that you later see is pretty ridiculous.This is way too typical of how big business actually operate in the world today. It's way to believable and not foolish to believe it's true.The arguments all make sense for why x1/x10 probes are a bit shit, and they are.But I can't help but feel that their motivations are not as honest as they appear and not being done to benefit the user.It has a bad smell to it, fells like all the companies in the industry conspiring to all stop selling x1/x10 probes in order to force people into paying for both an x1 and a x10 probe.

author: WizardTim
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 10:47:43 am
content: After you published this video I received this leaked photo from an anonymous source, it appears to show a pre-production prototype of the unreleased Keysight N2140B 200 MHz 10:1 non-switchable passive probe, presumably this will replace the N2140A. The anonymous source also claims they have a patent pending for this design.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 10:52:39 am
content: Behold, my finest work.https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxAyERbIH0Z8SZHsi9ggpz_C5a61sZAHFc

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 10:53:11 am
content: Not to mention a x10 probe will amplify the signal, so if you are measuring 230V for example, than a x10 probe will make thousands of volts, which is super dangerous. Good that they ban it.

author: RAPo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 11:00:15 am
content: if we get two (a separate 1x and 10x) probes for the price of one I agree.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 02:09:52 pm
content: Every bloody year, because of the time difference, you get me, you barstid!

author: MarkL
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 02:16:44 pm
content: The switchable probes should burn in hell. I agree with the technical leadership of TMA:https://tm-alliance.org/about-us/Who supplies a plain x1 probe anyway? Manufacturers who charge for front-end repairs?

author: Exosia
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 02:30:23 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on March 31, 2023, 02:09:52 pm

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 02:49:01 pm
content: Quote from: Exosia on March 31, 2023, 02:30:23 pmGood one Dave:https://www.whois.com/whois/eevblog.comhttps://www.whois.com/whois/tm-alliance.orgRegistered in 2 days ago, mostly same info as Eevblog. This was one of the best pranks I saw in a while. Not bad, not bad at all...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 02:59:34 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on March 31, 2023, 10:53:11 amI have a nice x100 probe which is great for testing ESD and insulation ralated things. 100V in - 10kV out. Much cheaper than one of those special ESD zappers or meggers.

author: Swainster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 03:25:51 pm
content: I've gone through my collection and chucked every switchable probe into the fire - I couldn't bear the thought of having them in my lab for even another day

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 03:45:18 pm
content: Quote from: Swainster on March 31, 2023, 03:25:51 pmThat's sad. It would only have taken 1 day for them to be back in favour. Fashion is so fickle.

author: Per Hansson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 03:48:02 pm
content: All joking aside Dave has done some brilliant videos on oscilloscope probes so I'll link them in here.But I'm not sure the videos explained what the actual purpose of the x1 mode is really for?I get that it is for seeing really small millivolt signals that would just be amplified as noise in x10 mode.But then again that is a super niche use case as that millivolt signal must then be strong enough to not be loaded down by the probe itself.And the signal must also be low frequency enough that the 10MHz or so bandwidth limit of the x1 probe is not a problem.It really does seem to me like a pretty strange thing to include as standard in most cheap scopes for "beginners"I can't think of a single time I've had a use for it, but it has been enabled inadvertently by me causing great confusion!

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 04:03:08 pm
content: Great, now the woke T&M companies are trying to cancel our probes. Well, they'll have to pry them from my cold, dead hands.

author: gjvdheiden
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 05:21:36 pm
content: Nice one David. I bet Chief Woz Wizard voted nay for this one, unfortunately he was in the minority.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 06:33:28 pm
content: I hate switchable probes - I had a set and the switches went dodgy as F*** and kept getting totatly incorrect signals. I didn't switch them, I just guessed which mode they were in. Also, being work the penny pinchers thought that they were fine and I didn't need new ones. So sad they accidently got chopped up / lost / crushed / shredded / melted / anything else I could think of when doing some testing.Good April fool though. The marketing wank did raise a red flag

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 10:22:10 pm
content: https://tm-alliance.org/blog/2023-03-31/Just looks like a list of arguments coming from manufacturers lobbying more than anything else.I personally have very rarely used the x1 mode, but banning? We should let the market decide.Oh, and of course, environmental reasons. Let's save the planet.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 10:34:07 pm
content: The few switchable probes I've got are taped up to avoid the switch getting accidenatlly moved off the x10 setting.What's even the point of x1 probes ? I've got a button on the 'scope panel if I want to reduce the bandwidth.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 11:59:38 pm
content: Quote from: artag on March 31, 2023, 10:34:07 pmIn x10 the probe attenuates the input signal 10 times. Allows you to measure signals with higher amplitudes, higher input impedance (10Meg typ. vs 1Meg) and wider bandwidth (as it also divides the input capacitance by 10.)Looks like a better deal overall? Except for the 10x attenuation, which may not be desirable for very low amplitude signals.Without a x1 mode, you'll have to use a dedicated probe/amplifier to connect to the scope for low-amplitude signals. Of course depending on your use case, you may have already favored that to a classic probe in x1 mode anyway. So, x1 is probably not hugely useful in practice. But something to keep in mind.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 12:23:20 am
content: Who needs ChatGPT to fill up a web page with seemingly serious utterances when you have Dave around.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 01:00:03 am
content: I wish they would stop making switchable probes, or at least stop making most probes switchable. I have very, very rarely wanted to use 1X and it has screwed me up multiple times when the switch got changed without me noticing, it's only luck that has prevented that from damaging a scope. For a while now I generally glue the switch in the 10X position when I have a probe that is switchable.

author: TomWinTejas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 05:43:27 am
content: The big hint was the address early on in the website... Hill Valley, CA. Back to the Future!!!

author: TomWinTejas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 06:22:04 am
content: Keysight hopped on the train as wellhttps://youtu.be/JD-vjV9jKgo

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 12:43:23 pm
content: My blood pressure started to rise signifficantly! (No I did not spot it myself...) It's time to ask Skynet what it thinks about it!But the thing is, that these argumentations are actually very realistic, at least with consumer stuff.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 01:22:00 pm
content: Nowadays, a safety risk and poor technique.GOOD RIDDANCE!Since the Tek invention of P6062B in 1970s, these have proven to be problematic. Our archive has a box f them....lots of Intermittent switches, poor mechanical of switch box,In use the loading of the X1 and ground clip inductance is a limit.We use scopes and plugins with more than sufficient BW and sensitivity to use either 1m scope with proper 10X probes OR just a 50 Ohm input scope and Zo probes.For a true aero cost 1X just take RG174/U term in BNC, wire cut end of cable direct to ckt.See Tektronix Circuit Concepts books on Oscilloscope Probes and Probe Circuits.Happy probing,Jon

author: py-bb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 02:05:43 pm
content: Funny enough I was just bickering with someone on this forum that x10/x1 probes being switched to x1 with say 500v on them by accident is a relatively low risk thing. So far I've been "lucky" and never accidentally switched a probe.With the post there are two things I strongly disagree on:Lack of auto-detection is a self-inflicted wound from the oscilloscope makers- for example LeCroy has this big ring around the oscilloscope port, you put a resistor between that and ground and the resistance tells it the probe's multiplication - this sounds easy and could certainly be done generically, it's not because LeCroy have actively prevented other manufacturers from using their scheme (I believe Tektronix has/had their own similar thing too.I like LeCroy oscilloscopes but seriously they're dicks for patenting and preventing others from having a LED the oscilloscope can control (so for example the yellow trace has a probe with an RGB LED set to yellow on it) - good simple idea and for no good reason they wont share it.We all make custom probes by cutting a BNC cable every now and then and sure there'd be some floating around but that there are none is entirely self inflicted.I found this laughable:QuoteYes like that switch and adjustable capacitor that combines two devices into one. That is total lipservice/greenwashing.If there are legit reasons (and I accept there might be) "greenness" isn't one of them, and lack of auto-detectionshouldn't'be one of them (but I agree it is).---------------------------------I strongly disagree with x1/x10 probes being somehow "evil"- they're useful. Sometimes I go help friends of friends and stuff like that and in my suitcase goes a (well padded) oscilloscope, 4x x1/x10 probes and a good x100 probe (and if there will be high voltage a big high voltage probe)- they are useful and they have a place.As for the training issue - if you can't teach someone what x1/x10 is - c'mon what hope is there?

author: py-bb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 10:26:30 pm
content: Bloody Ausie timezones.

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 10:53:59 pm
content: I "banned" 1x probes quite a while ago. I tend to destroy scope probes, so I end up putting the manufacturer-supplied probes away and they only come out when needed for something extremely critical (as in almost never).Instead I use probemaster 4900 series fixed 10x probes. Specifically the 4906-1k which is a fixed 10x 300Mhz probe. It also has reduced my probe destruction rate significantly as I find the most common way I destroy probes is to have one which is still attached to the scope and hanging off the bench. If they're long enough they can have some on the floor which I will either roll my chair over or step on without realizing they're there. The 1m length is short enough that they aren't able to touch the floor, eliminating all of these failures.So, whether it's April 1st or not, I'm perfectly ok with the 1x/10x switch being removed

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 02:52:05 am
content: Will they introduce probes, that can be turned to 11x?

author: dobsonr741
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 03:37:19 am
content: This announcement was just to prepare for the real one coming later: Introduction of the wireless probes. Sneak peek from the announcement:“Are you tired of dealing with bulky and cumbersome oscilloscope probes that limit your ability to accurately measure high-frequency signals? Look no further than Ultra Wideband (UWB) wireless oscilloscope probes, the latest innovation in the test and measurement industry.UWB technology uses extremely short pulses to transmit signals, allowing for highly accurate and precise measurements of even the fastest signals. With UWB wireless oscilloscope probes, you can achieve bandwidths up to 110 GHz, enabling you to capture and analyze signals with unprecedented accuracy.In addition to their high-frequency capabilities, UWB wireless oscilloscope probes offer unparalleled convenience and flexibility. With no wires or cables to worry about, you can easily move around your workspace and take measurements from a distance without compromising accuracy or quality. Plus, with built-in rechargeable batteries, you can take your probes on the go and use them in the field without being tethered to a power source.UWB wireless oscilloscope probes also offer advanced features such as automatic frequency compensation, which ensures accurate measurements even in the presence of environmental noise and interference. And with real-time data streaming capabilities, you can analyze and visualize your signals in real-time, making it easier than ever to identify and troubleshoot issues.Overall, UWB wireless oscilloscope probes represent a game-changing innovation in the test and measurement industry. With their high-frequency capabilities, convenience, and advanced features, they are poised to revolutionize the way engineers and technicians approach signal analysis and measurement. So why settle for less when you can experience the power of UWB wireless oscilloscope probes today?”

author: py-bb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 09:35:29 am
content: Quote from: dobsonr741 on April 03, 2023, 03:37:19 amThat's terrible, the wire is a structural support, it's load bearing to keep the probe in some weird place! You can't remove that.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2023, 11:56:30 pm
content: The next thing is AI-driven probes, we all know that.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 12:25:43 pm
content: Exactly, just take a picture of the PCB and the model will generate signals for all the nodes. An infinite channel scope without any wires!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 01:19:50 pm
content: Quote from: alm on April 06, 2023, 12:25:43 pmThat might need to be an x-ray picture to probe the faults inside the components.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 09:27:17 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 06, 2023, 01:19:50 pmBoards will be all virtual.

author: Sredni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 09:34:02 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 05, 2023, 11:56:30 pmOr alien probes.But there is no need to be so anal about that.

author: Orange4sky
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 12:14:59 am
content: I totally agree. Ban dual setting probes!. But why stop there? I mean why not ban switchable scopes? You can apply the same arguments. One scope for every possible situation. Seems like a great way to sell you more things you don’t need. I thought these things were supposed to be decided by “the free market”. Since when was the free market a cartel of private companies?Funny how these same corporations lobby government and fund media that tell us all how bad government regulation is. “Free markets are best”, and then they form an alliance, an unaccountable government, and make regulations that benefit them and not consumers. Seems like the market is not just a simple, level playing field.There used to be a name for this kind of thing. And a machine… made of wood but with a heavy, sharp metal slab.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 01:38:37 am
content: How about we ban people from posting in 2 year old threads.

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 02:45:08 am
content: Quote from: Orange4sky on September 03, 2025, 12:14:59 amThereisa name for this kind of thing, it's called an april fools joke.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 02:49:48 am
content: Quote from: Psi on September 03, 2025, 01:38:37 amWhy? I never understood that. Some threads are about pretty niche and obscure products and If someone comes along years later and adds more to it then at least the next person will find them consolidated in a single thread. Sure this isn't such a thread but is it really a big enough problem here to bother with? I've hung around here for a long time and it isn't something I see as a problem.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 03:44:45 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on September 03, 2025, 02:49:48 ami wasn't being serious.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 07:11:24 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on September 03, 2025, 01:38:37 amDead threads have some value as glueboards for power posters and spammers.Some fora do have no-necrobumping rule. Usually the reasoning is that the content becomes outdated. This isn’t the case for EEVblog, but makes sense for support boards. Experience suggests that in an overwhelming majority of cases, the problem a late-joining person is experiencing is not the same as one discussed in the thread.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 12, 2025, 07:46:10 am
content: The forum is hugely indexed on Google (and now all the AI engines) so new people find old threads all the time in searches, and want to join in, so they join and post away.