Microscope-related information you too might need - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 10:57:16 am
content: Buying a good stereo microscope can be a minefield, and I decided to post some info I gathered so far (via trial and error).In a nutshell, here are the lessons learned by me.1. Stay away from Chinese microscopes, unless really strapped for cash. If you must buy a Chinese scope, make sure you see it and through it in person, never trust specs, as magnification is a lot less important than the quality of optics, and the quality of optics is something that can only be seen in person (in any scope, but much more so in Chinese ones that range in quality from abysmal crap to quite OK).2. It's better to buy a used scope from a well-known manufacturer that specialises in microscopy than a new scope from God-knows-what-manufacturer. If the firm that made the scope is in the business of making telescopes, toys and other non-microscopy things, it's a good idea not to buy their scope, unless it costs pennies and you're not looking for much quality anyway. If you buy a used scope from a good manufacturer, make very sure it's not a Chinese fake, sometimes charitably called a 'clone'. If you do buy a fake, make sure the price you pay reflects this fact, as you can bet your life that the internal optics will.3. There is a firm called Absolute Clarity that seems a reputable dealer; they have useful advice on their site and are genuinely helpful people.http://www.absoluteclarity.com/buy&avoid.htmDo use their suggestions on what to buy and what to avoid, especially if you don't know much about microscopy.

author: sean87
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 12:13:03 pm
content: I am also thinking of buying a two eyed microscope. Would be nice if you can tell us what are the right specs for EE guys. Obviously we are not doing genetic related stuff and injecting DNA into viruses! So just some general specs to consider while looking for a scope. Also some model names is appericiated!

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 01:42:39 pm
content: The 'microscope-speak' for two-eyed scope is 'stereo microscope', and here you can have (for our purposes) 2 flavours: zoom scopes (e.g. 7x-45x, adjustable with a knob which you turn and zoom in and out) and scopes that allow a few discrete levels of magnification (e.g. 10x and 30x, via a thingie called a turret that you turn and the magnification switches between the 2 values). Zoom scopes tend to be more expensive.I suggest the following course of action:Determine whether you need a microscope at all. This is trickier than it sounds. For example, if you are planning to solder under a scope, go to a nearby university that has scopes or a friendly dealer, take with you a soldering iron and a typical PCB you intend to work on and look how the soldering process would feel like through the scope. You don't need to actually try soldering, but see how hand-eye coordination is when you're looking at stuff through the scope.If all you need a scope for is inspection, then I'd try a good LED-equipped jeweler's 10x or 15x loupe first (like Triplet, for example, or Zeiss if you're rich, but not the unlit plastic loupes) and see if you need better quality of image than that. If you do need a scope, the next option is to try a good make dual-mag option, this way you get their superior optics, but the price isn't murderous. If dual-magnification is still insufficient, then you know you need a zoom scope, and for EE purposes 7x-45x, or 10x-40x is enough. It's useful to have an LED light ring because magnification and illumination go together much, much closer than love and marriage.After you have decided on the kind of scope you want, you decide whether to buy new or used. I suggest buying a good make used, but that requires planning, patience and skepticism (to make sure you don't buy a lemon). If you decide to buy new, that would requite a lot of money. For example, a (more than excellent for EE) entry-level Meiji zoom scope, with basic objectives, eyepieces and a stand will cost new around £2,000, but can be had used for around £500, even less if you're lucky.Now about makes. There are some very nice scopes, but they are uncomfortable for EE, as they are aimed at biologists, gemologists, etc. Also, depending on where you are, have a look at your local eBay - do you see many accessories for the make you're considering buying? If not, that means you'd need to get these accessories new, and that'll cost more. Bausch&Lomb accessories and extras, lovely as B&L are as scopes, rarely come up for sale used in the UK, for example; Meiji stuff comes up more frequently.Absolute Clarity has a list of do's and dont's of scope buying, but I have seen in person 3 makes: Bausch&Lomb, Meiji, Vision Engineering. That and the Chinese stuff, of course.Let me say that Vision Engineering has an extraordinary microscope called Mantis - have a look at the video on their site, as this item isn't traditional microscopy. While the traditional microscopy stuff I saw was impressive (I especially liked Meiji), the view through the Mantis was absolutely breathtaking, and that at 6x magnification. But Mantis is almost never available used, and new versions start at about £1500, even though Vision Engineering do leases. But you never know, maybe if you're patient and lucky enough, you might find it used, especially in the US.So to narrow down things a bit, what would be your intended application of the scope and where in the world are you?This way we can find an optimum of price and quality. Sorry about the long post - buying an expensive item is a somewhat multidimensional decision.

author: sean87
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 02:51:57 pm
content: Thanks for nice info.I blame it all on Dave with his how to setup an EE lab. Actually I live in my university campus (University Twente, Netherlands) and Accessing to top equipment such few GHz DSO's and SEM microscopes is just a matter of 10 minute walk. But since I saw that video I almost spent like 600€ to setup a small lab in my room (an office desk, oscillocope, component trays and drawers, multimeters, soldering station). I might did the wrong thing but atleast my room looks cool and somehow I am now more interested in what I am studying.If I fail, I would get my money back from dave!?Anyway I have still some bucks left (around 150€) to complete my lab. Obviously I cant afford a logic analyser or a decent function generator with that money, so I was thinking about a microscope, I came accross this one on a local second hand shop. Would something like this be sufficent??http://alturl.com/kx4ty(shorted URL)

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 03:12:39 pm
content: Ha! No wonder you're more interested in your lab than in your studies. It's no secret that university professors make remarkably poor engineers (bloody theoreticians...).As for the scope, it's an average one, a Euromex (Japanese made, not Chinese! - says seller - yeah, yeah, yeah...).Have a walk to the shop, take typical PCBs with you, look through the scope. It's a cheap and cheerful one, ignore the inflated 'suggested price', that's laughable.Or better yet, ask yourself, do you have an immediate interesting project involving:a) logic analyserb) function generatorc) microscoped) otherGet the one for which you have the most immediate use (it probably wouldn't be the scope). Then go back to campus to the labs where the nice optical scopes are, wear your most charming smile and say 'I am just a poor student looking for a microscope. Please help me, please.' After a little while you'll get a nice hand-me down from the lab that cost megabucks. THAT, my good man, is the true usefulness of university education.And please tell more about your new lab - I love stories about other people's toys.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 03:18:25 pm
content: In my opinion you definitely need to try a microscope out before you buy it. The guys in the lab at work have a stereo microscope so I took the opportunity to have a look through it, never having seen one up close before. It was very awkward and inconvenient to work through. A traditional microscope has a small exit pupil (the exit pupil is the area your eye pupil has to be within for a clear view). With a stereo microscope you therefore have to position both eyepieces exactly in line with your eyes to get an unobstructed stereo view and then you have to hold your head in exactly the right position to line up with both eyepieces. I didn't find it comfortable at all.For the most part I think a big illuminated magnifying lens of about 5 dioptres to work under and a loupe or powerful magnifier for inspection would be a better option for soldering and SMT work.

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 03:22:09 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 02, 2011, 03:18:25 pmExactly!!! The only scope under which I managed to solder comfortably was the Mantis, others were a nightmare and an accident waiting to happen.

author: tecman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 06:35:17 pm
content: I agree in general about the chinese made stuff, but here in the US I bought one under the brand Amscope. Reasonable price, and yes made in china, but the optical quality. mechanicals and overall build quality are quite good. I've had it nearly 2 years and no problems at all.paul

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 07:45:37 pm
content: Quote from: tecman on August 02, 2011, 06:35:17 pmSure, I didn't mean to crucify all Chinese scopes, some of them are very much OK. I was just trying to say that in the case of a Chinese scope it's crucially important to inspect it in person and very risky to buy blindly over the Internet. It will be a very cold day in Hell when Meiji produces a bad microscope, but Chinese scopes don't have much consistency probably because there are so many different manufacturers involved.

author: Lawsen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2011, 11:08:41 pm
content: The Absolute Clarity report on the Chinese microscope industry is a bit dated. The classics like the Wild M3C and 3Z series are excellent. These are Wild Heerbrugg Swiss made Greenough stereo microscope with 3D views. The projection screen Vision Engineering stereo view scopes are expensive. I use a Zeiss DR1040 with good working distance. The plastic body and stage are antistatic, but vulnerable to be melted by the soldering iron. Meiji Techno is Japan's third tier microscope maker. Nikon, Mitutoyo, and Olympus are the top brands. The top Chinese brands are Motic, JNOEC, and BW Optics. Motic makes the Zeiss compound entry level microscopes. JNOEC makes some of Nikon entry level microscopes. The only recall on Chinese made Nikon brand microscopes was the inverted Nikon Eclipse with the lamp power supply over heating or not working. Olympus lamp power supply runs the cool, not hot like these Nikon Eclipse compound microscopes. The recall was for the inverted, not the upright compound microscopes. BW Optics is another company in Nanjing, China, near JNOEC. BW Optics inspection compound microscope has problems with the focus gears. BW Optics PTZ3 is a licensed copy from Wild Heerbrugg M7S stereo microscope and it is fine to use and buy. It has dual viewing binoculars for two persons to view the same object at the same time. The BW Optics 6745 is not an Olympus copy, but it is good at 6.7X to 45X magnification with stepless zoom and generous 22 mm apparent field of view and great working distance and interchangeable with Nikon stands. The stand and focuser is exactly the same as the one used in the recent Nikon SMZ-800, but less modular, no trinocular attachment. My favorites in the Nikon line are the vintage SMZ-U and the newer SMZ-645, the 45 is the inclined viewing eyepiece tubes by 45 degrees. Macroscopes that are not stereo 3D microscopes are the old Wild Heerbrugg M450 and M400 series. These are flat, high resolution single objective lens macroscopes from 3.2X to 32X zoom, stepless magnification, but no 3D. It is not a Greenough stereo microscope. I have some good reviews on the British microscope club website on Russian Lomo Greenough drum magnification changer stereo microscope. Absolute Clarity is right about the grease stuck problem and some times unrepairable stamped parts in Russian microscopes, but they are used by famous microscope photographers like Wim Van Egmond with his Lomo stereo microscope exploring pond and canal waters around the Netherlands. Wim Van Egmond was Nikon's Small World Contest; without using a Nikon product; winner for good microscope photographs through his microscopes of protist. Hobbyists have figured how to repair most Lomo's mechanics and stuck grease problems. The Meiji Techno RZ and RZ3 is a copy of the discontinued Olympus SZH common objective stereo microscope. My favorite Nikon SMZ-U is Nikon's equivalent of the Olympus SZH and Meiji Techno RZ. Nikon and Olympus discontinued this boxy design. Wild Heerbrugg has a model like this too, but under the Leica Microsystems branding and in antistatic plastic, not cast metal. The American Optical Stereo Zoom and Bausch and Lomb 1X fixed magnification pod are available at Nightingale Sales, Florida, U.S.A. These are classic, old Greenough optical design stereo 3D microscopes with no spare parts, mainly on the second hand market. Zeiss makes three lines, DV-4 in plastic and aluminum frame stand and Stemi 2000 in Greenough design, 3D stereo zoom and their expensive Stereo Discovery with high resolution common objective design and 3D stereo, modular. We could not afford the Zeiss beyond the DR (discontinued) and DV series in plastic. Most of the microscopes mentioned here have high eye point, generous field of view, and good working distance for soldering. Vision Engineering projection view stereo microscopes are too expensive and magnification limited around 3X to 10X usually standard.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2011, 12:57:33 am
content: I bought a Chinese microscope and I'm really happy with it and I didn't try it before I bought it.Sometimes just saying something without a probe makes no sense.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2011, 07:25:34 am
content: Quote from: Lawsen on August 03, 2011, 11:08:41 pmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_key- use it occasionally.

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2011, 07:38:06 am
content: Very useful info, Lawsen.Absolute Clarity's advice is aimed at beginners who don't know much about microscopy but who still want and need quality. Theirs is a 'rule of thumb' approach which is suitable for a beginner because of its simplicity.Your advice would be best received by an intermediate user who is already comfortable enough with the subject and who would be informed, not confused by the extra details.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 04, 2011, 10:00:53 am
content: This guy seems to love the Russian LOMO MBC-10. He made one of the most comprehensive reviews out there. Looking at the pictures I am starting to love it too. The price is around 400$.http://microscope.modelengines.info/

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2011, 07:54:54 am
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on August 04, 2011, 12:57:33 amIf by 'probe' you mean 'proof', I have plenty of 'probe', David. I know quite a few people who bought Chinese scopes without trying them out first and who then regretted their decision, and I have looked at a fair number of Chinese scopes myself in an effort to educate myself about scopes and the difference between good and bad ones.Just because you were lucky doesn't mean that it's not worth being cautious about buying something potentially expensive that may not turn out great. It's like telling people not to use birth control just because someone didn't use it once and didn't have to face consequences.I stand by what I wrote above: if you decide to buy a Chinese scope, great, but do try to look through it in person before parting with your money.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2011, 08:06:34 pm
content: Quote from: img on August 08, 2011, 07:54:54 amFirst: If you are in an international forum, you need to be aware that there is people like me that we were born in countries where English is not the primary language. And you need to respect that. We will make mistakes or use the incorrect words, even do we try not to.Second: You need to show the data of people happy and not happy with something to have a better proof or probe or whatever, just don't say something because you know few people, I can easily say: I know quite few people very happy with Chinese microscopes ! and that does not mean too much.Don't try to write something as an expert if you don't have enough data to show it, and of course it has to be a good data source.

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2011, 12:19:07 pm
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on August 08, 2011, 08:06:34 pmI was making sure I understood you correctly before replying, that's all.I never claimed to be an expert.My purpose wasn't to write a dissertation on microscopes, just to write a simple post to inform of my own experiences and others' experiences known to me.If you have a list of known-good and reliable Chinese microscope manufacturers, please do go ahead and post it here for others to refer to.Finally, there is no need to be so aggressive, as this interferes with the main purpose of the forum: to share and to discuss.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2011, 01:01:00 pm
content: In China they made also high quality optics for profesional use and they really are not bad.Do not buy chinese cheap scopes what are made for consumers who do not know anything or are low level young "It is nice to have microscope". Mostly they are really just as lot of western peoples want. Cheap. Nothing else but cheap.But if people want he/she can buy also high quality chinese medical or industrial microscopes.One middle level (more than good if thing hobby level) example is name "Motic" but you can not easy find these in "super low price" markets or chinese sellers who only want easy money over internet.http://www.motic.com/Products.aspx?r=AP&lang=en&id=33Yes and do not buy cheap "Motic" copycats. How you know what is true and what is lie... you can not, exept you buy directly from good name manufacturer. Or you need go there or you need trusted people inside China.Gemlab Inc:Quoteand as most of peoples know also example many good astronomic equipments are made today in China. Example old hobbyist "high-grade" class Meade. (then of course lot of bad waste products for "cheap" markets for "not so clever" peoples.)Why you can not easy find these good products. There is just one reson: They are not cheap!But then:Gemlab Inc.QuoteSo do not "overlook" Chinese made things but be careful. If you buy inferior product. It is also cultural. In China, customer is responsible what he buy. Customer need always cheak carefullu all about quality etc. If buy bad, go to look mirror and you find who is responsible. It was easy as long as you go directly buying so that you may check all in live. I have been there and also chinese peoples are very careful when they are buying. But now, internet make change. There are lot of sellers who do not care anything but get littlebit money from stypid western peoples who are blind and "I want it just now,... klick and pay."It is nearly so that if you want some high-end quality chinese equipments for science or professional use you need still go to China (yes it is easy and not expensive travel if you are buying some expensive things) or you need extremely trusted people there who also understand exactly what you need.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2011, 07:12:02 am
content: Read alsohttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=2981.msg50200#msg50200.