Guy opens £500 battery pack, finds £22 worth of cells inside - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 07:28:52 pm
content: As the video below shows:

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 08:01:29 pm
content: For that price the construction of the electronics is pretty bad. I think the cells quit working due to the absence of a proper cell balancing circuit. OTOH if this is a low volume product the costs for the pack could be in engineering (injection molds) and having it certified for safety.

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 08:56:40 pm
content: Not sure why he's so offended at the high cost. Maybe he doesn't understand the market? Maybe he's never sold/produced anything at low volume?Could use some cell balancing though, I agree.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 09:17:46 pm
content: Yes, low volume is definitely what raise dramatically the price.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 10:05:30 pm
content: Cell cost £22Packaging and circuitry maybe £50Writing 'Nagra' on it and shipping through Nagra distribution : £488

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 10:05:48 pm
content: I just bought a little drill motor for $1500 plus shipping for a custom imported machine. Motor looks to be from a $150 angle grinder from Germany. Have to do some searching and find a spare.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 10:40:05 pm
content: Is it just me, or does this guy look like Colin Furze's identical twin?

author: BurnedResistor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 10:53:27 pm
content: Quote from: sleemanj on February 21, 2016, 10:40:05 pmnow that you mention it....

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 11:25:50 pm
content: Anything with "Nagra" written on it is going to be expensive, but for the price you should expect better quality - cell balancing and availability of replacement internal battery packs at a reasonable price.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 11:42:05 pm
content: Quote from: BurnedResistor on February 21, 2016, 10:53:27 pmVoice also has similarities...

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 11:53:09 pm
content: On a slightly different note, why cant power tools have the same damn batteries, and chargers? Just brand lock in. The cells are the same.Then you have companies like Flir making their own cradle, and charging double. They should just rebadge/license a power tool. My friends iphone charger wont charge the e4 via usb.

author: chrisc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 12:00:50 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 21, 2016, 08:01:29 pmThis was my first thought. A little while back I re-designed a 3S1P LiIon pack controller for a client for exactly this reason: their legacy packs did not have balancing. When they were designed back in the late 90's they were able to get away with it using 1.3Ah cells.Once they started putting 2.2Ah cells in the packs the average pack reliability went from generally > 500 cycles down to less than 100, even with quality cells (Panasonic 18650CG if I recall correctly).In most cases where they got packs back under warranty it was the middle cell that died (which seems to be the same situation as the pack in this thread, though it's a 2P). The new controller uses active balancing via a TI BQ78PL116. (Some might think active balancing is overkill but the hardware is industrial handhelds; low volume high reliability so the small extra cost is OK).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 12:10:05 am
content: Quote from: marshallh on February 21, 2016, 08:56:40 pmYes, I'm not the least bit surprised that a bit of niche gear charges niche prices for batteries.Still sucks of course, but common as mud.

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 01:00:15 am
content: ...wow, just wow

author: MarvinTheMartian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 01:39:58 am
content: I've seen really over-priced items before many times (commonly sold by just a single company who controls the market) but I never fail to be amazed at the rip-offs that the free-market economy allows just because they can get away with it!One example is any equipment to do with disability (granted, there would probably only be low volume sales for most of it, except where it is a common bit of kit that has just been re-badged giving it amuch higher value-not!)Perhaps companies should be limited to a 'reasonable' profit level (after covering their costs) ie 30/40%? and stopped from reaping profits like 600%

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 01:45:26 am
content: Apparently none of yous guys works anywhere near the high-end media production biz.Nagra is one of those brands where EVERYTHING costs 10x more just because of the name.Much like a lug nut for a Lamborghini costs 10x more than the same lug nut for a Fiat.

author: wagon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 02:02:31 am
content: Quote from: MarvinTheMartian on February 22, 2016, 01:39:58 amx2. Wheelchairs that cost 15k, etc. You can buy a car for that! Disability aids price = add a zero

author: wagon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 02:05:17 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on February 22, 2016, 01:45:26 amYou need it, we have it. Bend over.Lube is extra.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 02:27:55 am
content: Quote from: MarvinTheMartian on February 22, 2016, 01:39:58 amIt's a free market, you can and should charge whatever you want for consumer and industrial products.(Not the caveat there)

author: wagon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 02:42:07 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 22, 2016, 02:27:55 amExactly. Let the market decide you're a thief and then they'll take their business elsewhere. Or, make big $$ while you can.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 03:04:20 am
content: Quote from: wagon on February 22, 2016, 02:42:07 amIn this case "while you can" is 65 years. Is that what you mean?

author: wagon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 03:14:37 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on February 22, 2016, 03:04:20 amIf it pays the bills.....

author: MarvinTheMartian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 04:35:41 am
content: Quote from: wagon on February 22, 2016, 02:02:31 amMy wife's chair cost about $35k - we could have boughttwosmall cars for that!

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 04:57:35 am
content: This is normal. It's business. It's ultra-niche market economics.This is my industry and it is NOT as glorious as many seem to think. The prices are totally in-line with the exclusive nature of the market they serve. They are not exactly selling a bunch of these batteries, it's not their business. They sell audio recorders that are historically very high quality and extremely reliable (I have used them). They sell the batteries because they need to support the customers. The typical customer earns half the cost of the battery for every day of rental on a production.I bet they sell a few hundred of those batteries each year. They had to make a mold, design and test the electronics, make the custom swiss turned screws, etc. At £500 they are considering them a courtesy service to the customer, not a retirement plan. For those that have never owned a small manufacturing company that caters to such a microscopic audience, it's hard to understand. All the employees and other expenses still have to be paid even when the batteries are not being sold. Sales are generally very inconsistent making it very difficult to predict what to do next. These batteries are not for cell phones and the sale price has absolutely nothing at all to do with the cost of the parts.Most professional on-camera batteries are >$500/ea USD plus about $1500 for a quad charger. External batteries are about $1500/ea and the charger is another $2000. These are sold in vastly higher volumes than Nagra batteries too. A 6 foot power cable can be $450/ea.

author: HAL-42b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 06:31:47 am
content: Quote from: nowlan on February 21, 2016, 11:53:09 pmQuote from: EEVblog on February 22, 2016, 02:27:55 amThe best solution around both these problems is for the Open Source community to develop their own standards and form factors and get people demanding their implementation in products.If there is an Open Source battery cradle and people come out and publicly yell that they won't buy anything unless it has that battery cradle in it we might get somewhere.Also it is not a free market unless the customers have legal clot and money to influence the market. We need consumer unions with power to oppose corporate power. Only then it is free market.

author: MarvinTheMartian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 07:36:01 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 22, 2016, 02:27:55 amI realize we work in a free market environment and that's the way it works, but that doesn't mean it is a fair system! At times it can be a very unfair.For example, say you needed a life sustaining bit of equipment or drug (a good example of an extreme case is the pharmaceutical rip-off recently in the US), but the market only has one player - ie a monopoly. You have no 'free' choice on where to get it as there are no other suppliers provided by the market.You could go to the supplier and say I think you are charging twice as much for the equipment/drug and I would like it a a more reasonable half of the cost. After laughing hysterically they would say you had the choice to go elsewhere (which you don't) and show you the door.I don't see any fairness or social conscience at work here.Sorry for the rantI'm usually very apolitical and nonplussed about things and avoid conflict - except where I feel I'm being ripped off (especially as we do not have money to give to someone else so they can unfairly enrich themselves).Note:Dave seems very fair minded from his videos and forum comments - except when he detects BULLSHIT of course!

author: TinkerFan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 07:43:56 am
content: Yes, I can understand that, but I also understand why someone is angry, when he finds out that he just bought a piece of gear that could have cost much less (and is not built to that price)...

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 01:22:53 pm
content: Don't think that Nagra has any sort of monopoly here. In fact their presence in the industry is a small fraction of what it was a few decades ago. To be sure they still have mega name-recognition in the industry. But the industry has considerably changed in recent years and they have more competition every year. One of their main competitors is the US companySound Deviceswho has expanded their audio mixer and recorder business into video recorders.Now SD is another "premium price" brand, but they have a solid-gold reputation for user design, ruggedness, and near-magical mic preamp design. But SD's business among people with modest budgets is being seriously threatened by a "new" competitor.Zoom, a Japanese company with a previous reputation for lower-end pro-sumer plastic "shaver" recorders has started shipping a compact 8-channel digital recorder which early reports claim have mic preamps that approach the quality of Sound Devices. And at a price around what the Nagra battery costs.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 01:28:18 pm
content: Well, when there is only one player and they have a monopoly, then it by definition is no longer the 'free market' operating.Situations like this battery pack are quite common, especially with high end gear. The accessories that go with such gear carry similarly high price tags, even for mundane things such as cables - and not because they are some sort of audiophoolery. And not just compared to some cheap Won Hung Lo brand item. Say something like a standard IEC power cord. WHL brand might be 99 cents and might not even use copper wire. A GOOD quality one might run you $10. But the one for the high end gear manufacturer - $30. And it's the same as the $10 cord. No one should be surprised by this, or at least no one who works with high end gear in most any field.One does hope they get at least a little something - like that $30 power cord being equivalent to the $10 generic kind, not a WHL quality one. Which is where this battery pack IS a little upsetting. You'd think at that kind of price point and margin they could have had the designer include some cell balancing instead of what amounts to a fairly basic charge control circuit. Unless, as hinted in the video, they offer a long warranty period or a replacement policy where when you pay that much for the battery pack, you can get it repaired for free or inexpensively, in which case they've done their homework and balanced out repair and support costs with the profit margin and the reduction thereof if they spent more on the included circuitry.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 03:48:05 pm
content: This fella has a Squire bass sat behind him, wouldn't surprise me if he has a similar "gig ready" Fender that cost at least 4 times what the Squire did, using pretty much the same parts, and I bet he can justify that no problem. If you want to play with "big boys toys" then you should expect the diminishing returns that come with "big boys price tags."

author: AlxDroidDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 04:26:24 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on February 22, 2016, 01:22:53 pmZoom is a very known name in the music arena. They used to make low end (read "cheap") digital effects pedals for guitar and bass, and so on. Those who wanted high-end stuff would resort to brands like Roland and Boss.Over the last 2 years, Zoom started manacing Boss' and Roland's dominance in the effects pedal market.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 05:16:47 pm
content: Quote from: artag on February 21, 2016, 10:05:30 pmAnd easily replaceable. Nagra should sell also replacement cells alone.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 05:26:50 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on February 22, 2016, 05:16:47 pmNagra is not and never has been about DIY repair. They have always been about supplying non-tech customers with something that does a great job. It is up to the customer to build a business suitable to accommodate the costs. For decades, that has not been a problem. A modern production sound mixer can easily have >$50k worth of gear on their cart - $5k wireless mics with $500 heads. $600 shock mounts on a $600 carbon fiber pole, holding a $2000 shotgun mic. They charge for it. They charge a lot for it and generally don't give a shit about the cost of the various replacement parts. Its part of the game.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 06:14:35 pm
content: Quote from: nowlan on February 21, 2016, 11:53:09 pmThere is nothing in it for the companies so it is the kind of thing that can pretty much only be done by force, like EU requiring that phones charge from USB

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 09:03:10 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on February 22, 2016, 01:45:26 amHere is the kicker. Many times parts for Lambos and Ferrari cars are sourced from Fiats. One of the people I work for restores early Lambos and many of the parts are shared with whatever Fiat was building that year. Switches, gaskets, electronics, latches, etc. Often times when they shipped cars to the U.S. the DOT lights and side markers were right out of Fiat.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 10:54:17 pm
content: ZOOMR16/24 are hard to beat for what one gets for the money.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 01:45:28 am
content: If a sound mixer for a major production showed up with that, they would likely be fired immediately.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 03:23:39 am
content: My Zoom R16 has saved my bacon more than once when my Alesis HD-24 died. Once literally on the other side of the planet (South Africa). There is a commercial CD produced from tracks I recorded on my R16.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 04:21:26 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on February 23, 2016, 03:23:39 amI am not saying the Zoom gear is bad.....I am saying the pressure to show up on a production job with one of the big boy toys is serious. The perception is that if the sound guy has the really expensive gear, he must be good and therefore the sound will be good. In reality, almost no one would notice if the biggest TV shows were shot and recorded on equipment that was a small fraction of the cost - Big, heavy, and wildly expensive gear provides a psychological comfort for the producers that have many $millions at stake. No chances, no matter how small. They put production assistants on all the street corners surrounding a location in case someone cant figure out where to go. So much of the money spent is 'insurance' efforts.

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 05:24:49 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on February 23, 2016, 01:45:28 amI dont think many people on this forum understand the high end recording/production market...As said before, it is VERY small compared to the consumer market. Niche and cut-throat. The economics of a business extend far beyond cost of parts. I am amazed at how many engineering types fail to see this. Maybe thats why they are engineers and not business majors.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 06:03:37 am
content: Quote from: iampoor on February 23, 2016, 05:24:49 amAs you can imagine, the "teardown video" that started this is a hot topic in several production sound forums. In one of them, a corporate officer of a similar company in the same industry wrote a rather cogent response to all the discussion.Quote

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 06:27:30 am
content: Mitch is a friend of mine, could not have said it better myself.Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 06:44:18 am
content: meh, just use RC lipo cells. Cheap, mass produced.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 07:09:49 am
content: Quote from: nowlan on February 23, 2016, 06:44:18 amFire.

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 07:22:00 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on February 23, 2016, 06:03:37 amI believe it. As usual, everyone is complaining and pretending like they know how the economics of these business' work. Funny thing I noticed when working on an A/V tech crew. The people who were amateurs always complained about price! The true pros "get it".Everyone thinks they can do it cheaper until they try,Mitchs response is excellent. Looking forward to seeing what response that brings out of people....

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 07:43:52 am
content: It perhaps is a bit overpriced, but considering the low run, it shouldn't be surprising at all.Also no one is in the business of providing physical products at the cost of the raw components. Something has to fund future development. And pay for the overhead.I do however think they should have filled the whole bank with batteries and have one full capacity model, unless weight was a consideration, half empty battery pack does look a bit cheap.

author: Don Hills
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 09:35:13 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 23, 2016, 07:43:52 amLike this one?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 09:44:18 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on February 23, 2016, 06:27:30 amPerhaps, but if the costs aren't in the parts it would not have hurt to put in a proper balancer chip. These chips need very little effort to make them work so it would not have cost NAGRA a significant amount of money to do it right. As I wrote several times before I'm involved in several projects involving Lithium batteries. An ever returning problem manufacturers face are reliability issues of the battery pack which causes end users not to like their products. As a result they have to spend money to source (have designed) better battery packs and work very hard and regain the trust of their customers. So don't under estimate the (sometimes devastating) impact a poorly designed battery pack can have!

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 10:30:41 am
content: Selling battery pack to musicians, and selling them to electronics technical people are totally two different worlds. Price is justified selling to musicians as they are not selling batteries, they are selling juices to make great sound and great music. As for electronics technical people, if they are practising what I do to my trade, they would kindly say please F..K off. They don't need my gears or services, and if they do they are asking for those nuts that they cannot crack, and they are not willing to pay for the time and resources cracking them. And if we do manage to crack the nuts, they would want to know how we crack them, and wanted free lessons so they could so for their future requirement.Selling to the same trade, Don't.

author: Scrts
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 02:10:46 pm
content: Quote from: MarvinTheMartian on February 22, 2016, 01:39:58 amSo in that case, you would like to have a limited career salary of, let's say $1000/month? Company is sharing the profit with you in a long term. You're closing your own opportunities this way.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 02:13:37 pm
content: Quote from: Don Hills on February 23, 2016, 09:35:13 amThat's mostly filled. Also kudos for using the handle part for the battery.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 02:21:29 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 23, 2016, 12:40:58 pm3D printers aren't cheap either, they require upkeep and calibration. Also they are fairly slow at producing large sized production quality prints. You are also limited to a handful of plastics and even really good prints will have that 3D printed look, that might not be appealing to some.Also someone still has to design it, and workaround the overhang issues with 3D printing (Certain shapes can be difficult to 3D print.)I know of a small company  that makes 3D printed headphones (excellent headphones by the way).They still have to finish the part and apply 7 layers of paint. Those headphones aren't cheap either $499.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 03:29:13 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 23, 2016, 09:44:18 amSo between the two quite substantial circuit boards inside that battery pack (the circuit boards themselves are larger than most battery packs) you think they forgot to include a "proper balancer chip"? And they didn't use no-name generic floor-sweeping cells. They used premium brand-name cells.But it doesn't matter how much you spend on proper design and quality parts, cells will go bad because that is the nature of things. Those cells are mechanical/chemical gadgets subject to normal manufacturing and materials variations. Blaming Nagra or their battery pack circuit for a couple of cell failures just doesn't make sense. There will always be cell failures. There is no way around that.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 05:52:01 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on February 23, 2016, 03:29:13 pmLooking at the board inside the battery pack I don't see devices which can dissipate some power in order to do the balancing. The middle 2 cells failing completely is also a dead giveaway.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 06:35:08 pm
content: Yeah, now silly of them to source a high-end battery pack from a major European vendor.They should have bought no-name generic packs from Ebay.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 07:10:50 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 23, 2016, 07:43:52 amThe pack is form fit to the rear of the recorder so they have options on how much to put in it - it looks and feels the same regardless of how it is configured internally. It is likely the design intent was to protect for higher capacity and NiMh chemistry options without a physical do-over. Crews travel by air all the time and are restricted in how much lithium batteries they can travel with. It is possible the full version is not legal to fly with so they have a low capacity version. Just a guess.Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 23, 2016, 12:40:58 pm3D printers are ugly and require a ton of manual labor to finish as a real product. Molding is really the only practical option here. I am in the same ultra-low volume space and 3D printers have very modest value overall. We still have to machine, mold, bend all of the production parts s they have been done for many decades. The tech for traditional manufacturing is improving very quickly as well and for those paying their dues, can pull off small very high quality parts. Right now, 3D printing is either exceptionally expensive (aerospace parts) or a novelty.Quote from: nctnico on February 23, 2016, 09:44:18 amI can't vouch for the design, but I would hazard an educated guess that there are but a few engineers on staff and they are likely to be there to accomplish the near black art of the audio circuits involved. I doubt any of them are power specialists. Maybe the next revision they will go with a more advanced design. Still, it has nothing to do with how it is priced.

author: Rutger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2016, 04:42:33 pm
content: What I don't understand is why his friend didn't ask him to repair/check the battery pack, it could have saved him a lot of money.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2016, 05:07:37 pm
content: Quote from: Rutger on February 24, 2016, 04:42:33 pmIf I was his friend, I would not risk a DIY repair that could potentially shut me down on set. He can carry spares of many things, but probably not a spare recorder. If there is anything at all that even has a small possibility of creating a problem - it's not worth the money saved. In the film/TV business it's not really life or death - it's just treated that way. One little...."Ooops, I didn't realize that......" moment.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2016, 06:38:31 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on February 24, 2016, 05:07:37 pmAnd SOUND has always been an under-dog in the production biz. They can spend most of the day getting the lighting just right, but if the director has to say "Waiting for sound!" you will find yourself unemployed for a considerable time into the future.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2016, 08:08:06 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on February 23, 2016, 07:10:50 pmActually it has everything to do with how it is priced. If you pay a premium price you want a premium product which is made from quality components and is designed to get the maximum performance from those components. Now the cat is out of the bag Nagra will have a problem for sure! Not because of the price of the materials but because the pack fails much sooner than it should.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2016, 08:17:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 24, 2016, 08:08:06 pmVery, very doubtful that there will be even the slightest impact on the business even if every single owner watched the video. They are purchased for the audio quality and not the life of the battery. They will, over time, make incremental improvements to the whole system - including the battery/power sub system.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 02:51:04 am
content: Follow up video.Making a lithium battery power pack MF#71

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 03:11:13 am
content: Since nagra facebook page is down,cacheNAGRA VI Battery pack - Amateur videoTo whom it may concern:Audio Technology Switzerland is keen to receive constructive and well documented criticism concerning its NAGRA products. However, amateur videos potentially putting customer safety at risk is strictly contrary to the company policy.The technology developed and used in our batteries is excellent for energy storage for any environmental situation where a portable self-contained application is required. It is however a very sensitive technology, that needs to be handled extremely carefully.If not, lithium batteries can heat up and in extreme cases catch fire or even explode.It is for these reasons that Audio Technology Switzerland takes extreme care to use certified (incl. CE & RoHS...) battery packs, in order to be able to guarantee the safe use of its products. This allows also our customers to travel with full security as this certification is valid for airline safety.It would appear that the creator of this video is ill informed of various different possibilities. The battery pack was specifically developed so that if the customer needs to repair his machine, he can simply replace the defective single battery cell, or if he wishes to upgrade his machine, he can replace the single battery cell by a multiple battery pack, and the capacity is increased without the need to purchase the full battery pack. However, such operations should be undertaken by properly trained personnel, and full testing of the unit is necessary in order to avoid any safety risks or eventual damage to the recorder.Audio Technology Switzerland - NAGRA develops and manufactures extremely reliable and high quality professional products, individually hand-made in Switzerland. This means long lasting products for the customers. The prices cannot be based on a single element of a particular device but reflect the precision, quality and service we strive to achieve.NAGRA is against programmed obsolescence of its products, providing electronic equipment used and maintained for decades

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 04:35:00 am
content: translation:"Go fuck yourself. You don't know shit about our business or our customers. We have been doing this at the highest levels of the film and TV industry before your grandparents were born. Have a nice day."

author: djQUAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 04:56:35 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 24, 2016, 08:08:06 pmIIRC, the video said it failed after 7years of use. I think that is pretty good for a lithium ion pack.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 06:33:24 am
content: Quote from: nowlan on February 28, 2016, 03:11:13 amWhat more can you ask? Electronics tech, we let you, if you know enough, if you want to save money, and want to do yourself. Real business is not just a pack of batteries. There are a lot of more work, more cost, more responsibility and more liability. Come on, grow up, don't disturb them. They are not selling DIY.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 07:21:16 am
content: Quote from: rrinker on February 22, 2016, 01:28:18 pmDisagree, the market is still free given that anybody who feels they're being ripped off is able to go start a business in the same field and undercut them.When nobody does - it's usually that they've run the math and realised it really costs that much so they couldn't run a profitable business if they did.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 07:51:48 am
content: When it comes to price, a good product is worth the cash. When it comes to batteries you can easily design the product to have user replaceable ones or not. It depends on the business you are targeting and money.I think in many cases when you are talking low production gear, customer satisfaction is critical. Losing a customer is losing money, unless your customer has no other option.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 09:11:49 pm
content: Oh dear, he busted the whole "I'm not an amateur" thing by using a crappy Antex iron to solder heavy tabs....

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 10:19:33 pm
content: QuoteThey arethatgood!.

author: dexters_lab
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 08:59:38 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 28, 2016, 09:11:49 pmfirst time i saw him wielding it i was surprised too, considering the rest of the quality kit he has on his bench,i used to swear by my Antex XS though!

author: Shadetreeprops
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 10:37:15 pm
content: well to the video.i can see why he is put off by the cost. becasue he can build the inner workings for small fraction the overall cost.but your right, the design team, molding, people paid for engineering it. The price starts to go up. but its also not shot work, it was decent. from my view point.But i view, BEAT headphones in the same light, there not just superior to all, the first generation broke alot due to the construction of them. i had to repair several of the broken head rest parts. for my kids, who would accidently bend them or have them in their covers and lay on them. and that part snap. or even a few times from just general use weakining the parts. so for the 300 USD put out on them..it was not worth it...the head part should been all spring steel, and aluminium, the rotary joints should have been aluminium. basically wherever there was movement, strain, and articulation..something other than HDPE should have been used not cheap ass plasitcs. not for 300 dollars.

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2016, 02:09:15 am
content: Quote from: Shadetreeprops on February 29, 2016, 10:37:15 pmAnd they sounded awful! SO many nicer pairs of headphones in that price range.

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2016, 07:19:06 am
content: Quote from: Shadetreeprops on February 29, 2016, 10:37:15 pmForget headphones that are on the market today, if you want some proper durable ones, you build em!Granted they are a little heavy (500g), but they have an 18650 in them for a crazy long battery life, and I need to re-build them to add in some more features (the receiver I have is susceptible to noise, it took lots of troubleshooting and a diy antenna to get the noise down to a level where you can enjoy the music, it also doesn't support a microphone input, and I'll add a USB port inside the ear port to charge your phone if needed.I also might upgrade it to a 4000mah lithium pack, or possibly one in each side if I can find a nice four wire cable to go across)On the topic of beats though, I had an $80 pair of rocketfish headphones (rf-mab2) and they absolutely fantastic, I don't know why they got discontinued, anyways, a guy at school had a several hundred dollar pair of beats by dre, he took a listen to my headset, and the look on his face was priceless, apparently they sounded way better. Granted I had bass boost enabled on them, but still, they had great sound with or without it.

author: nogood
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2016, 08:12:12 am
content: Quote from: Shadetreeprops on February 29, 2016, 10:37:15 pmAs he says in the follow up video: He clarifies that his problem was that if the battery fails or you want to upgrade Nagra let's you buy the product, but doesnt modify your existing one.And buying new, if you have the expensive shell already, is just a money grab (albeit quicker and easier for some clients, sure). Also Nagra was not clear on wether they do replace Li-Ion packs by confusing the terms in their reply ...

author: tjeulink
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2016, 09:10:17 am
content: Quote from: MarvinTheMartian on February 22, 2016, 01:39:58 ambut that would mean that governments actually did something for the less fortunate!. but on a serious note i do agree, obscene profits do not induce research and development in a linear trend. much like the pharmaceutical industry is often limited in europe to prevent extremely high market funding compared to R&D funding.