CE marking and certificates - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 02:09:25 pm
content: Is there any way to check the validity of a CE certificate?I've been looking at importing a piece of hardware to the UK and the manufacturer has sent me a certificate but it looks a bit 'mickey mouse' to me, there's a certificate number but I can't find a place that will allow me to check it?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 02:13:01 pm
content: Ther is no such thing as a CE certificate

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 02:21:46 pm
content: Hmm, so if the manufacturer claims their product conforms with relevant standards, including CE, how do I validate that or do I have to have it tested myself?If that's the case, how do I then prove it conforms?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 02:47:31 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on July 26, 2018, 02:21:46 pmIf they've tested with a 3rd party service, test results from that ( check with service if you doubt authenticity), but they could self-certify, in which case it's down to how much you trust them, or test yourself.

author: kosine
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 02:53:40 pm
content: CE marking is only required for certain types of product, mostly stuff that could pose a health and safety risk during normal operation (like pressure vessels and medical equipment). For electrical items, it's only needed for anything over 50V AC or 75V DC, or anything that emits RF, or anything that would class as a toy.The CE mark isn't needed for - and shouldn't be affixed to - any other items. (More details here:http://www.ce-marking.org/what-product.html)If the product in question does actually need the CE mark, then it's up to the manufacturer to confirm that it meets all necessary regulations applicable to that type of product. This is what the "CE certificate of conformity" is supposed to signify. It's basically a shorthand way of saying the product meets various ISO/BS/EN standards without actually listing them all out. As Mike points out, the certificate is not official. It's just a formal statement issued by the manufacturer.If they're genuine, then the manufacture should have a list of all the required standards and (ideally) independent test results to confirm that it passes them. This is what you should be asking them for. (They could test in-house, but they'd still have to document it to convince anyone.)If they can't supply a list of the appropriate standard/regs plus the test results, then they're probably just saying it's "CE-approved" to keep their customers happy. (The mark is so abused that people expect it to appear on everything these days.)

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 03:16:39 pm
content: I trust them as far as I can throw them, so I'd be wanting to confirm or recertify.The device in question is kitchen appliance that runs on 240V and has a motor so it would need the CE certification.Looks like I need to speak to a testing house.Oh well, was a nice idea.

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 03:47:56 pm
content: CE is essentially self certified. Much like you can say some vehicle lighting product is DOT compliant (US). Unless someone takes the product to task and inspections are later performed, there is no guarantee that it truly is DOT compliant.ETL/UL requires an authorized lab to have performed the certification. The ETL / UL mark should have next to it the actual test number that it was certified with.I would put little value to a CE mark (especially from a small or non-namebrand company) unless there's also an ETL / UL mark with it and you can then look up online and search for the company and product that it was certified with and verify the product number / company is listed and matches the number it was tested against.There are labs that can test to ETL and/or UL compliance for a specific test. ETL and UL are similar in terms of certification. UL has a range of tests (and test procedures for those tests). e.g. an ETL lab can test for compliance to a specific UL test and then you can find that product having passed the UL test and refer to that UL test but it will be listed on the ETL website and the product will have an ETL logo and reference the UL number.i.e. ETL and UL carry similar/same certification 'worth', they are just 2 different certification repositories.cheers,george.

author: kosine
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 03:57:05 pm
content: Worth enquring about testing, just so you know where you stand - though you might want to be sitting down when they tell you the cost involved!Moving parts and mains electricity can easily put you into five-figure territory. And if the product fail the testing for any reason, they don't give refunds.You'd also need to look into public liability insurance, though that's not usually all that expensive.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 04:03:03 pm
content: With a motor it might also come under the machinery directive.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 04:27:47 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on July 26, 2018, 02:09:25 pmDunno with all your Brexit stuff, but the rules at this point are:if you are importing from outside the EU, you as "importer" has the same responsibilities as the "manufacturer". This basically means YOU have to sign the CE conformance documents, and YOU are the legal entity responsible for the product. For this, you of course need the test reports from a "certified entity".

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 04:34:58 pm
content: Here is example of CE certificate, or rather a declaration of conformity. It is self issued and no way to verify it is valid. You could probably ask for test report from the company.http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/155e/0900766b8155e700.pdf

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 06:22:09 pm
content: Yes, the correct wording is 'Declaration of Conformity' rather than CE Certificate. It is always signed by a 'responsible' member of the manufacturer's or importer's staff. It must also state the applicable standards that it complies with.CEisself certified (ie. signed by the manufacturer / importer) but they MUST, if challenged, be able to provide evidence that their product meets the applicable standards. This can be in the form of a 'Technical Construction File', which might be used for instance for something simple, without any particular EMC of safety issues, It could contain measurement results if the manufacturer has their own calibrated test setup. More likely (or hopefully) they will be able to produce test results and certificates from a proper test house. In the case of mains powered stuff, for instance, the manufacturer needs to provide manufacturer certification for any safety critical components used, demonstrate proper creepage and clearance and flamability for things like transformer insulation and PCBs - This is all stuff that a test house will demand if they are going to test and certify it.@CJay:The manufacturer needs to be able provide all relevant documentation to you, not just a single sheet Declaration of Conformity. If you are the company importing the product into the EU, theyyouwill be the ones responsible for generating the Declaration of Conformity, andyouwill be the ones who must be prepared to defend it![EDIT: Oops, yes, exactly what Benta said. The buck stops... err, roughly where you're standing.]

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 07:02:27 pm
content: Thanks all, most helpful.I've an idea how to progress now

author: BBBbbb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2018, 06:23:50 am
content: CE mark is dodgy even for medical equipment, and there have been deaths because of it.e.g.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poly_Implant_Proth%C3%A8se

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2018, 07:12:27 am
content: I have at least one traceable approval on this meter....and it can be traced to here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg1693226/#msg1693226

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2018, 07:20:10 am
content: Quote from: Benta on July 26, 2018, 04:27:47 pmI fully agree with this part.QuoteDon't agree here. If you have the technical expertise and the required measurement equipment, you can perform the relevant evaluation and tests yourself. Or you can decide to trust the OEM supplier's internal evaluation, if it exists, is properly documented, and credible. No "certified entity" needs to be involved, I believe.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2018, 06:27:22 pm
content: QuoteIt's correct, mainly beacuse the responsibility is always of the manufacturer or importer, no matter what tests say, and also because the 3rd party entity, even if certified,will state expressly that the tests are valid only for the sample tested, not for the entire production.A certified entity is helpful only to show that you was very diligent in your certification process which will have much more credibility but it won't mean anything legally (won't save you) if only the sample tested is compliant and the rest/most/half of the production is not.