Solar roadways from Belgium - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2016, 12:37:49 pm
content: I know, probably I should have posted this earlier, but so far, I did not know about it.There is a solar railway in Belgium. And it is done correctly. So I think it is worth sharing.High speed train goes under it.It is called Solar tunnel (in whatever language). 16000 panels, for some 3km or so, done in 2011.http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/jun/06/tunnel-solar-belgium-rail

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2016, 12:52:12 pm
content: Way better than the previous "super amazing totally the future" solar roadway that everyone chatted about when they didn't even have a prototype.Plus this is more economic and doesn't have the loads of issues the other design had. I'm just surprised I didn't hear about this sooner either.I am curious how they clean them.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2016, 01:49:28 pm
content: Those smart engineers have yet to figure out that sooner or later those trees will fall, then ....In this 3rd world country where I live, that would be a massive violation of code. I guess 1st world trees are better.

author: Connoiseur
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2016, 03:42:50 pm
content: Let's hope someone optimises and starts manufacturing something like one of these in the the near future.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2016, 03:49:00 pm
content: Are we sure the picture isn't photoshopped? Look at the shadow of the panels on the nearby houses.BTW, the guardian page on this article is followed by a picture and story on the first Beijing - Shanghai high-speed train. I was on that very train that very day. mesmerizing experience.

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2016, 04:25:49 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on March 10, 2016, 03:49:00 pmWhat sort of train was it? I got to ride the shinkansen in japan several times, 300km/h sure is a nice way to travel lol. I have some flyby videos I took of it, the microphone in my camera was totally overwhelmed, but it was a screeching noise that was purely deafening, and quite uncomfortable. Even going through the station they are pretty fast. I could upload it if some train enthusiasts wanted lol

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2016, 06:07:49 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on March 10, 2016, 03:49:00 pmGoogle "Solar Tunnel in Belgium". There are lots of pictures and even videos of flyovers.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 10, 2016, 06:34:28 pm
content: Quote from: XOIIO on March 10, 2016, 04:25:49 pmWhat type of Shinkansen did you take? Several years ago, i occasionally took the Nozomi and Hikari services between Tokyo and Fukoka. The trains were the N700 which are ubiquitous on this line. I cannot complain about noise and comfort. Being almost 2m tall, i could not even complain about lacking leg room (there was ample). The only issue was that the rides were rather boring -- not much to see outside the windows with all those tunnels and noise barrier walls along the track...Quote from: dannyf on March 10, 2016, 03:49:00 pmOf course the picture is photoshopped. No way Belgium has that many trees...

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2016, 06:46:57 pm
content: Who said trains and solar are incompatible, this shows the big advantage of owning the whole right of way, and having a decent idea as well for use of the included space.As to the Shinkansen, my dad used it a few times ( faster than flying in all cases even from Tokyo to the top of Japan) and the only issue was a 20 minute delay ( with an apology from each station master as well for this) due to a minor earth tremor. He did get a flight though, to go to Vladivostok, just to see the city from the air. Very different from East Berlin, where he did go as a child, and Hamburg, where he went to school.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2016, 11:24:11 pm
content: "What sort of train was it? "A regular bullet train, just as depicted in that guardian article. Very smooth and nice seats. We went over 350km per hr. I understood that it has been reduced to like 300kmh since then, after a deadly accident.I also took the maglev train in Shanghai - impressive but no scale at all. The Chinese bullet trains are simply amazing.

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 01:14:50 am
content: Quote from: elgonzo on March 10, 2016, 06:34:28 pmIt was the N700 as well, I think I also rode on one of the ones with the elongated more round nose, can't find what type those are easily. I'm uploading the flyby videos atm. For some reason they look super low bitrate, but maybe that's because it's from my network storage.I just wish they had a maglev train, that would have been even more awesome.edit: here we go.https://youtu.be/aV2MIaz4ygA

author: Obin
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 09:02:48 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on March 10, 2016, 03:49:00 pmI live a mile next to this, it's real

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 10:29:48 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on March 10, 2016, 11:24:11 pmWhat do you mean with "regular bullet train"? China uses many different high-speed trains from different international manufacturers like Siemens (Velaro), Kawasaki/Mitsubishi/Hitachi (E2 Shinkansen), Bombardier (Regina X55 and Zefiro), Alstom (ETR-600/Pendolino), and since a few years also domestically developed models.I am aware that in some regions of the world the term "bullet train" is used as a general synonym for any kind of high-speed train. However, most people i met around the world associate "bullet train" with high-speed trains based onJapanesetechnology. The picture in the Guardian article shows a door of a CRH3 train. The CRH3 is a German design (Siemens Velaro platform), hence i would not call it a "bullet train".Quote from: XOIIO on March 11, 2016, 01:14:50 amAh, you mean outside noises. I guess the louder the better, as any diesel loco fan can attest to.If train with the more elongated round nose was operating on the same lines as the N700, it was probably a specimen of the500 series.I am not sure whether i should be cautiously optimistic or a bit pessimistic about the Japanese maglev. What i am concerned about are infrastructure costs and costs of operation. There are reasons why Germany abandoned its Transrapid program and why the short and silly Shanghai-Pudong maglev is the only Transrapid technology demonstrator left. On the other hand, the technology itself is rather awesome...

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 11:58:58 am
content: QuoteBut doesn't offer much more than a typical bullet train would. The fare is also quite expensive - I think I paid like $20 for that short ride (10 miles?). In comparison, a 45-minute ride from Shanghai to HangZou cost me $12 (about 100 miles).

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 12:11:42 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on March 11, 2016, 11:58:58 amI fully agree. As i hinted at in my last post, i think that high costs will be the death knell for any maglev systems. While i see little benefit of maglevs compared to conventional transport modes, i still find myself excited by this technology. I have a similar relation to manned space stations (i.e. ISS) -- while i consider it a mostly useless money burning operation, all the stuff that goes into planning and operating such a station still amazes me...

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 12:24:29 pm
content: QuoteOK, that settled it.I still find trees much more appealing to look at than those panels.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 12:44:12 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on March 11, 2016, 12:24:29 pmYup. The railway office responsible for this particular track probably only had the choice of building a "tunnel" to protect the tracks. As the trees/forest in question seem to be a natural reserve (name of the area is Peerdsbos), felling trees close to the track was probably forbidden. I would also think that the tunnel is not only protection for the train track but also functions as a noise barrier. Which is obviously a good thing. (except for the train passengers) And unless you you just happen to walk one of the bridges crossing the tunnel or climb the mentioned trees, you would not see much of the panels on top of the tunnel anyway...

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 01:08:32 pm
content: A Maglev ride in Shanghai doesn't cost all that much (50CNY/7 Euros for a standard seat one-way, or 40CNY/6 Euros with a valid airline ticket).8 minutes travel time, while a bus or taxi ride to the Pudong terminal takes about 30 minutes, depending on traffic.Those fares are said to be high enough to cover the annual operating costs.There were some plans to extend the line to the second airport (Hongqiao), passing through the city, but, unfortunately, that has been shelved indefinitely. The current city terminal isn't very practical, being too far away from the city center.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 01:15:56 pm
content: The maglev drops you in the middle of nowhere and then you have to hop on a subway to get into pudong, as I recall.I think there are subway lines into the airport - not 100 percent sure on that. The maglev for me is a novelty ride.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 01:19:33 pm
content: The subway lines are great in china: they are quiet, cheap, clean and air conditioned. They can be crowded during rush hours, however.I like them the most for their uninterrupted cell connections. Kind like the subway of the future.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 01:39:22 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on March 11, 2016, 01:08:32 pmI don't know how pricey the fares were when the Shanghai maglev opened, but the fares were certainly higher than today. But yeah, 50RNB is much cheaper than the aformentioned 20USD.However, i would be cautious with statements regarding annual operating costs covering. Always keep in mind that high-speed maglevs more often than not are prestige projects. If operation of maglevs would be economical, countries would fall over each other trying to build high-speed maglev systems. Countries with an existing modern railroad network infrastructure including well-developed passenger transport would for obvious reasons rather go with high-speed rail. But countries without such a modern rail network infrastructure still don't go for high-speed maglevs, but rather conventional yet dedicated high-speed rail lines (cue Taiwan, Turkey, Uzbekistan, etc...). Despite high-speed maglevs providing much more international prestige compared to high-speed rail, there is really nobody interested in it except Japan. Which pretty much is the elephant in the room telling you that there is something not right with the cost side of things...On the other hand, low-speed commuter maglevs seem to be more attractive, as indicated by looking at projects in China (Beijing S1), South Korea (Incheon airport) or Russia (planned commuter network in Leningrad Oblast)...

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 01:48:04 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on March 11, 2016, 01:15:56 pmYes, there is a subway line (green color, iirc) that runs from Hongqiao airport in the west of Shanghai through the center of the city to Pudong airport. With regard to practical transportation, the Shanghai-Pudong maglev is near useless... i would bet the overwhelming majority of the maglev revenue is coming from tourists/visitors eager to ride a maglev once in their life time... (When i was visiting Shanghai, i took the taxi and not the subway. Fares were so incredibly cheap - i don't remember how much-, that i didn't bother taking the subway.)

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 01:48:18 pm
content: I just googled it. The 50 rmb fare is forbthe standard ticket. 100 rmb for the VIP ticket. I think I paid like 110 or 120 rmb for mine. But that was quite some times ago.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 02:53:06 pm
content: There is a subway line (2) from the airport to the same Maglev Longyang Rd station, but that trip takes 45 minutes, with 10 stops along the way. Many people use the Maglev because of time constrains.In 2007, the Maglev trains carried an average of 15,000 people a day. Each train can carry 574 passengers. Those numbers are far too high to account for tourist travel only.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 03:01:29 pm
content: Quote from: elgonzo on March 11, 2016, 01:48:04 pmI usually use the maglev when I go to Shanghai. It gets you into the Pu Dong area faster than a taxi, and a short taxi ride from the terminal gets you to your destination. Going back I usually get lazy, flop in the back of a taxi, and ask for the airport. It was very smooth when it was new, but the ride is getting rougher and rougher as time goes by.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 03:51:12 pm
content: My flight got in at midnight, I think 2008 spring time. My car had 4 to 5 passengers including me.I was told that when it opened, everyone wanted to try it out but the novelty probably died out quickly.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 03:58:35 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on March 11, 2016, 03:51:12 pmIts usually pretty busy when I go on it.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 10:04:32 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 11, 2016, 03:58:35 pmWell, then it's a good thing that i never bet my moneyQuote from: coppice on March 11, 2016, 03:01:29 pmThe rides becoming rougher and rougher over time is probably because of the concrete surface of the track eroding. I am no fluid/aerodynamics specialist, but let me try to explain it anywayThere is a small gap between the maglev train and the track surface. At higher speeds, incoming air gets compressed in this gap. Variations in the geometry of this gap (due to uneven track surface, for example) can lead to disturbances and air pockets of slightly different pressure. This can cause vibrations and audible noise (aside from the usual 'wind' noise), sometimes even banging/thudding noises. The pressure can even become so great as to push the train slightly out of its preferred position with regard to the track (as can do gushy wind and turbulences), before it is being pushed back to its preferred position, adding further to vibrations and a wobbling sensation felt by the passengers.