Looking for my first/last bench multimeter - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2024, 06:31:12 am
content: Hate to just come in here and post like this; a longtime lurker I guess I should just ask.Currently have one single multimeter, a handheld Hioki, and it keeps moving around all over the house as needed, including the bench, garage, car, attic, garden wherever. I need a bench multimeter.Currently looking at a Keithley 2000 on offer for $300... Seems like a good price, and except for replacing a few caps it should be good.But I'm losing mind here. I've also considered Fluke 8842A, the HP 3478A, the HP/Agilent 34401A.Icurrentlyneed continuity, diode, and DCV. Frankly 4 digits is more than enough, which brings me to my next point:From what I've gathered, the fluke 8842a is a beast that holds calibration extremely well. I'm not getting that same confidence outreading aboutthe Keithley 2000, and if it has 6.5 digits, if they're not calibrated, well, it's not 6.5 digits is it.The HP 3478a looks like a bargain tank, caveat: the batteries on these need replacing, and you have to do that w/o losing power or you lose calibration. Fine. Also no display backlight. Does it beep for continuity?But at $300 the Keithley seems like a good deal, and has nice-to-have features I might use down the line. Prior forum posts say the 34401A edges out the Keithley 2000. I don't know, I've never had a bench multimeter.Like I said, I want a first/last bench meter. Rough LCR capabilities would be really nice (the handheld hioki has that), but is an unrealistic expectation. I don't want any chinesium unit. No rigol, or siglent, or gw-instek. I prefer a used quality unit that might need repairs to a new cheap-o.Appreciate any input - losing my mind here.

author: BennoG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2024, 08:10:14 am
content: Thes bench meters are less protected against abuse as for example hand held fluke meters.But the $300 looks nice display seems bright (usually the VFD displays go dimm if the meter has been on for a couple of years 24/7)I have one over here and it is a perfect meter for on the bench.If you want better than 0.05% accuracy it needs to be on for at least 1 hour (that is why most laps let them on for 24/7).Benno

author: robert.rozee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2024, 10:35:44 am
content: given your comment, "4 digits is more than enough", you may wish to consider a Fluke 37. they seem to be readily available on ebay at around the us$50 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/305355386629) to us$85 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/266657294340) mark. if you are really keen, fill the test-lead storage compartment with cement to ensure it stays on your bench - or pack if full of batteries if you don't want to ever need to change the batteries.another possible contender is the Fluke 45, although it may take you a while to find one at a sensible price. i recently bought one locally for under us$45 including shipping, so they are out there.the HP 34401A and Fluke 8842 are far more precision instruments (i also own both), and as Benno suggests correspondingly more fragile. both have VFD displays that will fade with run time - this may be a concern for you.a 'fun project' would be to take a Fluke 77 and convert it to a bench meter. remote the LCD from the main PCB, turn the PCB 90 degrees and provide an extension shaft for the selector, create a new socket layout, and add abigbattery so it will run forever. but then you would have something not too far removed from being a Fluke 37 for a whole lot more effort!cheers,rob :-)

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2024, 02:45:09 pm
content: Good point to look at cheap bench meters.I see what you mean about the Fluke 45's being expensive, wtf! The Fluke 37 looks good, but maybe I should just buy a second handheld meter. It somehow didn't occur to me that the precision meters would bring with them added sensitivity... well maybe to a small extent.The Keithley 179A looks really nice... but researching more, it looks like it lacks auto-ranging, diode, or continuity. I guess some things I've started taking for granted, but auto-ranging would be really nice. Auto AC/DC would also be really nice.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 03:04:06 am
content: The Fluke 8842A with its VFD and adjustable display rate is amazing at what it does, but it's so limited with regard to functions that it just can't be your first or last bench meter.Did you actually mean the Keithley 179A? It's 100% barf. If you meant the 197A then it's also a poor option with a severely limited feature set. Insult to injury, current isn't auto-ranging.The Keithley 2000 and 34401A at least have SOME "modern" features like continuity and frequency. Otherwise these are relics that I think only make sense if you're needing higher levels of accuracy and precision, and along with that calibration + data...My go-to suggestion for situations like this is the "Keithley" 2110. It's actually made in Taiwan by Picotest. The major positive is that it has a lot of functions and features. The major negative is the small display. I think it could be a great first bench DMM, but for sure not your last.More handhelds is always good idea. Leave them all around the house so they are always within reach.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 03:43:38 am
content: The 8842A does not have a continuity beeper and in fact it is totally silent--no fan, no beeping, no hum (the transformer is encased in epoxy...). It is both durable and repairable and an LED display replacement is available. It is very fast to read and autorange and has high input impedance up to 20V. However, it only has DCV, ACV, Ohms and a very limited one-shunt current range. The 2k range doubles as a 2V diode test and it tops out at 20M for resistance. They're great to use, but if you only have room for one meter you'd have to think it through.The 3478A has limited voltage ranges and that display ends up making it less desirable. It also lacks any extra features.The 34401A has everything you say you need and is a good choice for an "only" meter. Note that like most older meters, it lacks a capacitance range. The only downside is you have to key your way through a very deep menu which you have to memorize or write down in order to access the advanced features. If you never had trouble setting the clock on your VCR this meter might be for you. If you want one, try to get the best one you can because there are some pretty old and ratty ones out there. Newer with later firmware is better.If you don't care about capacitance, don't overlook the Fluke 8808A if you can find a good deal on one. It is actually quite quick and convenient to use.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 01:50:43 pm
content: You should see if you can find a used Siglent. I bought the SDM3045X brand new for $400 and upgraded it to the SDM3055X-E. Then I later found the SDM3055 used for $250. They're both excellent, and they should cover all the things you mentioned. If you can find a deal on a used one, go for it. They're still worth it new, especially compared to overpriced/uncalibrated dinosaurs that need repair.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 03:23:21 pm
content: I agree with not getting an piece of old junk. Old meters typically have small current measurement ranges, hard to read VFD or LCD displays, no capacitance and no continuity beeper.There is a whole flurry of budget friendly meters out there (Vichy, Uni-t, Owon for example) which don't break the bank and have all the features you need in this day & age.

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 03:48:14 pm
content: I appreciate the suggestinos. I want an old gold meter. The Fluke 45 looks like it could be fantastic unit that fulfills all my needs. Capacitance would be nice, but I'm additionally looking for a dedicated LCR meter. If it needs work, so be it, the engineering is unmatched.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 04:00:30 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 22, 2024, 03:48:14 pmJust curious, how/why did you land on the Fluke 45? What is fantastic about it for you?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 04:43:45 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 22, 2024, 03:48:14 pmI'd be careful with going down that road. It is easy to be lured into buying something old that is beyond repair and/or severely outdated. In the past I have bought quite a few pieces of test equipment while forgetting I've gotten old myself as well. Then again the Fluke 45 looks like it has been discontinued not so long ago. So if you like the features, make sure to get a relatively young one.

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 06:05:18 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on March 22, 2024, 04:00:30 pmEngineering, long-term durability, long term stability, intuitive UI, open schematics and theory of operation, fast continuity response, ubiquity, low depreciation, simplicity in design, built by the inventor (world's first 2 measurement DMM), 10 amp current measurement (as opposed to two or three), etc... All good things.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 06:16:45 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 22, 2024, 06:05:18 pmThose are reasons to collect a thing. If you're looking for a collection piece, cool. If you're looking for a functional & reliable device, modern stuff is better.Why would I want to buy a brand new 8K OLED TV, when there's a beautifulpiece of furnituretube TV from 90 years ago?

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 06:57:48 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on March 22, 2024, 06:16:45 pmI have a pioneer kuro and would buy one again.

author: zepto
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 07:00:58 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on March 22, 2024, 01:50:43 pmIn the past I have owned:keithley 192keithley 2000keithley 2001hp 34401ahp 3455ahp 3456afluke 8505ayokogawa 2501ayokogawa 7561/2/3advantest 7461aadvantest r6871eI've never spent $400 on a multimeter, let alone a 4.5 digit siglent. There are nice older devices that hobbyists can learn from and maintain.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 08:12:57 pm
content: I can't see the point of the Rigol DMMs in this conversation. The Siglent SDM3045X at least has the decent screen with the histogram and trend chart and I've suggested it in the past for newbies due to what you get for the price. It even has Ethernet built in.The Fluke 45 seems like a very limited relic. Makes sense if you're collecting.I would just save up and buy something decent.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 08:56:55 pm
content: This is just my opinion, but the Keithley 2000 and 2015 and the Agilent 34401A meters are primarily designed to be used in ATE racks. This is why they have a very basic display and the user interface is a bit clunky from a human factors point of view. These meters really shine when used remotely as they offer fast update rates (when logging data) and all the features are easy to access remotely. Try and do this via the front panel and you either need a lot of patience or you need to know how to navigate the menus efficiently.The display in the 34401A looks like a display that no one would actually buy to use in a homebrew project because the fonts are so basic and unnatural and cheap looking. The Keithley display uses tiny cheap looking digits that can't easily be read at distance. These meters are also quite long and so they require a fairly deep shelf to sit on. None of this matters if you use the meter remotely because you won't be looking at the display or the front panel interface.By contrast the old Fluke 45 is easy to use manually and it has a very nice display. My main niggle with the Fluke 45 is that the auto range is very slow, especially when measuring resistance. This could be a dealbreaker for some as it really is very slow in this respect. The logging rate is also quite slow compared to the Keithley and Agilent meters. I don't think my old Fluke 45 has ever been calibrated from new but it still reads 5.000V on a 5V test source that has been checked against a recently calibrated meter. It never seems to change and I've had it for many years.So my Fluke 45 is the meter I use on my bench and it lives there all the time. There's no way I'd want to use a Keithley 2000/2015 as an everyday bench meter. The display is poor and the user interface is not as nice as the Fluke. I rarely use the Fluke 45 for logging because it only achieves a few readings a second. I'd much rather use a Keithley or Agilent meter for this.So there is no 'one size fits all answer'. If you do measure resistance a lot, then I'd avoid the Fluke 45 as it is very slow to auto-range and provide a readout on the display. It's at its best measuring DC and AC voltage and it has an easy to use dB/REL feature when measuring (S+N)/N or when reading the output of sensors with a dB readout.If you can live with the basic looking fonts of the 34401A it is probably the best all rounder, but these meters are getting quite expensive to buy used. If you buy a Keithley 2000 then make sure the display is still fairly bright as they can fade over time to become very dim.

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 10:30:50 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZUHow is the 34401A different form the Keithley 2000?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 10:46:14 pm
content: There are several things outdated bench meters can't do:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/cant-test-led-with-hp34401a/

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 10:54:11 pm
content: Quote from: zepto on March 22, 2024, 07:00:58 pmYou're welcome to whatever biases you prefer. 😉My $400 meter is now 5.5 digits, and I'm quite happy with it. And it has a nicer screen and more features thananything you listed. Not to say there's anything wrong with you enjoying those, simply that they're not for me.Both of my Siglent meters can show statistics (easily readable) on screen, and they can be connected over ethernet to my computer and have both datasets tracked.If I was going to get a Keithley, it would be the DMM6500 or 7510. Or both. That would be nice. 👍I have projects, and I have tools, and sometimes there's overlap. Sometimes I don't want any overlap.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 10:58:51 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 22, 2024, 10:46:14 pmSure, but do you need them to?https://digitalzakka.com/product/aneng-an999s-19999-counts-true-rms-bluetooth-digital-multimeter-supports-3d-voice-broadcast-function-automatic-range-multimeter-with-alarm-clock-thermometer-without-battery

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 11:00:17 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 22, 2024, 10:46:14 pmI can simply use a power supply for that, no? And measure with a reliable DMM?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 11:05:13 pm
content: I dunno, the bluetooth speaker and alarm clock seem like useful features. 😉

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 11:07:18 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on March 22, 2024, 11:05:13 pmThe more important question is, are the bluetooth speaker and alarm clock even worth a damn...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 11:11:54 pm
content: Certainly not. I believe he was joking, regarding some "modern features" as being silly.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 11:13:36 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 22, 2024, 10:30:50 pmI'm not quite sure what you mean by different, but in terms of using them everyday for bench use, the display fonts of the 34401A are much bigger and easier to read. So this helps make it much nicer to use. I don't think there's much between them in terms of accuracy, but other people will know more about that side of things than me. The 34401A looks and feels a bit flimsy and cheap compared to the 2000 but this improves if the rubber boot surrounds are fitted.If the choice is for a second luxury bench meter that mainly gets used for logging and critical measurements, I would opt for the Keithley 2015THD as it offers the DSP modes and it can measure SINAD and THD and it also has a built in audio source that is quite accurate.If it helps, I've got one of each of these meters, a Fluke 45, a Keithley 2015THD a Keithley 2000 and an Agilent 34401A although I've only had the 34401A a couple of days. I've used lots of 34401A meters at work though. For me, the Keithley 2015THD is the most versatile meter but I couldn't tolerate using it as an everyday meter on the bench. The Fluke 45 is much nicer to use in this respect.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 11:34:04 pm
content: I guess the other thing to consider is how annoying each meter can be to use.The Fluke 45 is annoyingly slow to auto-range on resistance, it takes about 2.5 seconds to make an auto reading of a low resistance for example. The 34401A takes maybe 0.3 of a second and the Keithley 2015THD appears to be instant.The Agilent 34401A display has an annoying 'blinking star' refresh indicator on the display and if left on DC volts (with floating test leads) the display digits will constantly change about 3 times a second along with the blinking star. This might be OK for some users but I find it distracting. The 34401A also emits a slight hum from the internal transformer.The display digits of the Keithley change fluidly all the time when the leads are left floating so it can be distracting as well, but the fluid nature of the display isn't as annoying as the 'three updates a second' 34401A in this respect.The display of the Fluke 45 settles fairly quickly to a static display reading and is much less distracting than the other meters. I guess this is because it has a 10M ohm input vs the ultra high input Z of the other meters?Some people may have the opposite view, they might like the look of a meter that always looks busy even when not in use.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 11:41:25 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on March 22, 2024, 10:58:51 pmAnd who hasn't needed to test an LED ?Point is, older instruments have design constraints that inhibit usefulness.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2024, 12:33:51 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 22, 2024, 10:46:14 pmThere are several thingssomeoutdated bench meters can't do. The Keithley 2000 diode test has 3V and 10V ranges with different test currents. And only some newer meters can measure diode drops that high. So some older meters can do it, and some older meters can't. And some newer meters can do it, and some newer meters can't. What's your point again?The main advantage I see for more modern meters is the graphical display and software which allows histograms and trend plots. Downside is worse performance (resolution, stability, accuracy, reading rate) per $, and sometimes less reliability and stability (like the Keysight meters that lose their front panel firmware). Also generally less maintainable. Does Siglent publish calibration and adjustment procedures and commands for their bench meters? I would rather buy a used HP 34401A where full schematics, service documentation and a lot of discussion about their repair is available, then a used Rigol or Siglent meter where the only option may be paying for repair if they even offer that service to someone who is not the original buyer.I like the Keithley 2000 for its speed. It will auto-range and settle on a reading much faster than any other meter I've used. The nice thing about 6.5 digits is that if the bouncing between range when the leads are unconnected annoys you, you can just set it to the 100V range and still have plenty of resolution for most measurements. Same with the current ranges to get lower burden voltage. Or resistance ranges for a lower test current. But my main meter for repair is a Fluke handheld. The bench meters tend to get used for more static jobs where the leads are hooked up using clips like monitoring power rails. Or when I need its extra features like speed or a variable continuity threshold.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2024, 12:45:23 am
content: Quote from: alm on March 23, 2024, 12:33:51 amNo but manuals need updating to show the User adjustment feature.Calibration verification steps and recommended equipment is all listed in the service manual and a Defpom video takes you through the steps required to make and save adjustment/corrections:

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 11:38:37 pm
content: I do not know what you mostly do with electronics.I mostly fix radios and test equipment. the TE I fix is stuff I buy cheap and I think I would like to have.Over 95 % of the time all I need is my hand held Fluke 4 digit and a BSIDE component tester. When measuring volts ohms etc We are not discussing SA or Scopes here.I have two HP 3456 units that I have fixed and they now work well. Then I had to buy a volt source and a resistance box (good one but not Metrology grade) to make sure these things work.Then I had to get the volt source Calibrated. Not Cheap.I also have two HP LCR meters. For more exacting measurements. And a General Radio LCR Bridge....And MORE...Sometimes I get nostalgic and drag out the old analog multimeters for fun. Sometimes I need the old meters because they can measure Kilovolts, they also have the high volt leads.All of this finally dawned on my little brain that I was "Going Down the Rabbit Hole"But it was too late.If you really need a very good bench volt ohm meter you need to include in your budgetsome money for periodic calibrationPlease consider the probable time cost of fixing old equipment also. This may or may not be important if it is your hobby.Also consider the cost of proper test leads for fancy equipment. IMHO this is something that most people do not have, even when they have good equipment.For most measurements I prefer a separate Multimeter and separate component tester. Just my opinion.Also cheaper;Please note that the people who respond here are extremely knowledgeable about their instruments and are very helpful. They typically know a lot about the modern equipment.Surely more than I do.

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2024, 05:43:36 am
content: Quote from: kendricks on March 31, 2024, 10:30:58 pmI ended up getting a Fluke 45 and am now figuring out how to get it calibrated.The only reason I was looking at 6.5-digit DMMs was because I saw a keithley 2001 locally for $300

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2024, 06:17:13 am
content: Is the Fluke 45 autorange speed for resistance faster if you select F rate vs. M or S?

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2024, 08:33:46 am
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on April 01, 2024, 05:43:36 am... it begins!Next thing you know you'll have a rack with multiple Keithleys and HPs too.... Then come the power supplies...Welcome to the club!

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2024, 04:46:57 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on April 01, 2024, 08:33:46 amWell...:Not pictured is my analog o-scope (Tektronix Something with Digital Storage.... love not having to wait for a "boot time")Also not pictured: a DE-5000 LCR meter, a cheap-o LCR meter, and a chinese function generator that's getting sold as the BK Precision is replacing it (although i think it needs service), and my Hakko FX951 soldering thing that I'm not particularly fond of, but gets the job done.It's my nice little bench for and and all electronics stuff that needs repairing.