Neoden 4 PNP machine; Components jumping out of the tape.  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: rew
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2023, 10:39:01 am
content: I'm having trouble getting a should-be-simple board PNPed on my Neoden4.The WS2812 leds keep jumping from the tape before they are picked. I've slowed things down to 10% and got this video:https://prive.bitwizard.nl/VID_20231127_172045.mp4Does anybody know what's causing this and what I can do to reduce this?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2023, 01:41:04 am
content: Wow, that's nasty. Can you check it by advancing the tape manually? Do the parts still jump? Either the LEDs are sticking to the cover tape (maybe electrostatic attraction) or the component tape is vibrating as it advances. I couldn't quite tell from the video.Jon

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2023, 08:40:05 am
content: I would think that this happens when the sprocket pin leaves the plastic it snaps up, it first pulls the plastic down, and when the sprocket pin ejects from the tape the plastic snaps up.How to fix this? Adjust the position of the tape so it cannot snap out, I'd probably machine some adapter for this, maybe you can get around by printing some small bar and just stick it with some tape in front of the part.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2023, 09:51:44 am
content: Quote from: MR on November 29, 2023, 08:40:05 amThis or the fact it is plastic pocketed tape and its snagging on itself, sharp edges or corners as it bends down and round underneath. Or perhaps even that depth of pocket is close to the maximum that feeder design can process smoothly.I haven't seen these in person but the feeding mechanism half is incredibly compact with very little space between the pick position and the end of the feeder. Most feeder designs clamp over more of the tape, hold it further back and have a window in that clamp for picking, the sprocket or actuator often in front of the pick position keeping tension in the carrier tape. This design is none of those things, sadly it might simply suck at plastic tape for certain packages. Flatter packages in shallow plastic tape pockets are the most difficult for feeders to feed well.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2023, 04:31:35 pm
content: Quote from: MR on November 29, 2023, 08:40:05 amYes, I think this is the most likely culprit. My old Philips machine (made by Yamaha) had a blade that advanced with the tape and held the part down and then the blade was retracted to allow the part to be picked up. My newer Quad QSA30 (made by Samsung with Quad feeders) has the drive sprocket behind the pickup location far enough back so that it doesn't bounce the tape.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2023, 04:33:04 pm
content: Quote from: MR on November 29, 2023, 08:40:05 amYes, I think this is the most likely culprit. My old Philips machine (made by Yamaha) had a blade that advanced with the tape and held the part down and then the blade was retracted to allow the part to be picked up. My newer Quad QSA30 (made by Samsung with Quad feeders) has the drive sprocket behind the pickup location far enough back so that it doesn't bounce the tape.Jon

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2023, 02:47:14 am
content: I started using this 5050 LED as well this week and saw the same issues on my Yamaha CL based feeder. Then I noticed that the black tape is thinnest I have ever seen in my life. So, that becomes like a spring board when tape is being advance. On my machine, I added a delay before the CL feeder cover opens up. This solved the issue close to 100%. Not sure if the Neoden machine has this sort of settings.

author: Styno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2023, 09:39:33 am
content: Again, this shows that feeder design is really important, where manufacturers can make or break their machines. You can have the best XY servos, HD-camera's all over the place, a super software flow and then still need to fiddle all day to keep the feeders in check.Is it possible to tune down the advance speed on the feeder? Is the video slomo or real time? Even if it's real time, the LED chip shoots away like a rocket compared to the visible movement of the tape. Maybe the bottom of the tape scrapes the feeder construction which cause jerky motion during advance. Or, perhaps, do you have astatic electricity problem?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2023, 10:18:55 am
content: Definitely looks like the tape springing up - very cheap thin tapes are vulnerable to this maybe look at making a wireform to put downward pressure on each side of the tape to constrain vertical motion

author: TankSparks
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2023, 01:22:18 am
content: Speed setting won't help for that try reducing feeder and peeler force in settings... just enough so they work. which is usually around 40% on most feeders. Most likely it will never be 100%, same parts can be a pain.Does your feeder have a plastic insert that goes underneath the tape, its only removed for thick parts. Looks like Neoden has 2 versions of the feeders, the newer ones don't come with the plastic insert possbily, not 100% sure.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2023, 05:40:58 pm
content: Quote from: TankSparks on December 04, 2023, 01:22:18 amMy Quad feeders have a "spring" under the component tape that presses the tape up against the upper part of the tape track in the feeder. I never really thought about it, but it now becomes obvious that the purpose of this spring is to keep the tape from being deflected by the nozzle or sprocket pins. The spring is a flat strip of springy steel that is a bit narrower than the component tape. The tape pushes the spring downward, and it accommodates the thickness of the tape. The Quad feeders have the sprocket behind the pickup location of the tape, so it pushes the tape toward the pickup point. That may also help prevent the tape from bouncing as the teeth pull out of the holes.Jon

author: rew
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2025, 12:41:23 pm
content: Hey guys. I'm guessing I didn't get auto-subscribed to my own topic, because I don't remember ever seeing any replies. :-( Sorry about that!Anyway. 1.5 years later: "It's the plastic tape"... Nope, many paper tapes also have this problem!It depends on the feeder and the reel.Yes, I'm still "thinking about" creating a 3D printed insert to push the tape against the top guide. (after dealing with this for over 1.5 years...)Thanks for all the answers!

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2025, 04:38:34 pm
content: My previous machine (Philips CSM84) similar to Yamaha CP84, had a "blade" that advanced as the tape was advanced, to keep a cover over the part pocket. This meant you could pull the feeder off the machine and even turn it upside down and the parts would not fall out. When the head came over the feeder, a plunger dropped down and retracted the cover blade.My current machine (Quad QSA30A) made by Samsung has Quad electronic feeders that advance the tape very smoothly. The feed sprocket is several pockets behind the open pocket where the part is picked from. I have seen the tape to "jump" a bit as the sprocket advances, especially on embossed plastic tape like you show in the video. But, apparently the sprocket is far enough behind the pick-up position that it doesn't cause the next-up part to bounce. Not really sure what adjustments your feeders are capable of.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2025, 04:44:41 pm
content: Quote from: rew on July 19, 2025, 12:41:23 pmOK, on both of my machines, I never saw any problem like this with the paper tape. My newer machine (the Quad) has a thin metal spring that holds the tape up against the top guide. I have to remove this spring for tapes with very deep pockets. The spring is something like very thin stainless, the ends are wound around screws with large cylindrical parts. I think it might be real hard to 3D print this, but maybe a horizontal screw and thin steel spring material might do it.Jon

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2025, 07:45:59 am
content: I was going to suggest trying the feeder adjustments suggested in this video which are supposed to help reduce the problem of parts being flicked out of the tape pockets. I've been meaning to go through some of my less reliable feeders and check this adjustment.But I think the Neoden 4 doesn't use CL feeders? Even so, maybe there is a similar mechanism used that could cause this.