SATA SSD Brand recomendation. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2024, 02:15:06 pm
content: Well, my old laptop 5600rpm HD is failing according to Windows.What brand SSD should I get.I need 960gb or 1tb.I don't want a junk name brand.I have an ~80$ cad budget.Some true big name brands are more expensive.Some unknown brands are cheaper.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2024, 02:24:57 pm
content: Brand name is secondary as long as it's not a no-name-ish garbage. You should avoid QLC, and especially PLC NAND (not available yet but will be very soon). Also avoid DRAMless SSD. If you want SATA drive (you did not mention what, NVMe would be better is there is a slot), performance will be about the same for the vast majority of SSD except bottom end DRAMless stuff.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2024, 07:52:53 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 16, 2024, 02:24:57 pmFinding out which drives are TLC is easy.Finding out if they have dram cache is a problem.For example, this drive: SanDisk SSD Plus 1TB Internal SSD - SATA III 6 Gb/s, 2.5"/7mm, Up to 535 MB/s - SDSSDA-1T00-G26, 85$ CAD.All the spec says is nCache2.0.Is this dram, or, running a portion of the flash in SLC mode, then re-writing the data in TLC mode?

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2024, 08:00:41 pm
content: Samsung evo 870 will do great, more expensive than others but worths every cent.Had my 850 for almost 10 years, zero issues, upgraded to a much faster nvme SN850X.Nowadays everything is TLC or QLC, you'll be having a hard time finding 1TB SLC if existing at all.The key for SSD longevity, apart from staying away from random brands, is to have as many free space as possible so the wear leveling does its job, ideally about 50%.It won't last as long if you fill it to 90%.So if you need 1TB to use 850GB, better save a bit more and get 2TB.If you download lots of stuff or use P2P/torrent, I strongly suggest to get a DVD-hdd adapter (It'll replace your optical drive) and get a cheap HDD just for downloads.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2024, 08:47:08 pm
content: QuoteI guess the easiest would be finding a teardown pictures/video to see if there is a DRAM chip. Did not look on SATA SSDs for a long time, most of what's sold now seems to be DRAMless junk (well, performance is OK for SATA) and ones with DRAM are more expensive than good NVMe with DRAM. Are you sure your laptop does not have NVMe slot? Most of 2015+ laptops have it even if came with HDD.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2024, 09:19:16 pm
content: Your budget is too low to get a quality new 1tb drive.https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/sandisk-ssd-plus-480gb-dramless-or-not.3587993/Quote

author: GLouie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2024, 09:52:30 pm
content: I've been using Crucial MX500 for budget SATAIII SSDs from 1-2-4TB with zero problems. I'm not so interested in precise construction details at this price point, it'll still run circles around your old HDD. These got a nice review on Tom's Hardware back before the pandemic:https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/crucial-mx500-ssd-review-nand,5390.htmland I'm seeing them sell now for $87USD/1TB. Samsungs are usually lauded, but always cost more.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2024, 10:30:41 pm
content: MX500 is good but currently $120 CAD:https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/h3tQzy/crucial-mx500-1tb-25-solid-state-drive-ct1000mx500ssd1Samsung 870 evo is $115 with cache:https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/7nsnTW/samsung-870-evo-1-tb-25-solid-state-drive-mz-77e1t0bamDeals usually show up here:https://old.reddit.com/r/bapcsalescanada/search?restrict_sr=on&sort=new&feature=legacy_search&q=ssd+NOT+laptop+NOT+prebuild+NOT+prebuilt

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 03:07:41 am
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on July 16, 2024, 08:00:41 pmSamsung 870 Evo -- is it a dud model?https://forum.hddguru.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=42876I would opt for Kioxia, SK Hynix or Solidigm. People have been reporting problems with the more recent Crucial MX500 models. Samsung and WD/Sandisk have had dud models (eg SA510), so I'm not willing to trust them at the moment.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 04:16:51 am
content: For quality/reliability, Crucial (Micron) or Intel are my preferred manufacturers.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 04:41:41 am
content: 80CAD is not enough for a 1TB SSD, you will want to spend a little bit more.QLC is perfectly fine unless you have a very specific use case that justifies something else. I've been running Samsung QVO drives for years in my desktop and laptop with no problems. I am yet to see data showing QLC lasting less than TLC in real world use cases, but it's still worth checking the write limits & warranty before buying.DRAMless SSDs are perfectly fine for everyday use. DRAM-equipped ones are now a much more expensive market segment. Again don't worry unless you have very specific use cases (eg high throughput writing of lots of small files).Recently I had bad experiences with Silicon Power TLC+DRAM SSDs losing their data after only a few months of usage. Both cases were covered under warranty, but that didn't replace my lost time and stress. I ended up buying a more expensive (and noticeably slower) WD SSD instead and it has been fine so far.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 04:52:47 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on July 16, 2024, 02:15:06 pmAll SSDs are junk. Buy "Goldenfir" and don't bother.https://aliexpress.com/item/32657147484.htmlNot other place, exactly there. I recommend.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 05:21:31 am
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 17, 2024, 04:52:47 amWhat are you basing this off? Are you suggesting there is absolutely no quality difference between brands and product families?

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 06:07:33 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 17, 2024, 05:21:31 amI wrote here about bad SSD with Samsung-evo branded chips. I bought it from another store. All 10+ SSDs in the link above have worked absolutely fine for 6 years.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 06:08:26 am
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 17, 2024, 06:07:33 amYou didn't mention Samsung in that post. It sounded like you were saying all SSDs are the same crap.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 06:26:04 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 17, 2024, 06:08:26 amYes, I think so. But they are easy to store and cheap. HDD is too sensitive to shock.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 11:16:47 am
content: Crucial works for me, but make sure to get the MX500 type. I was a bit to frugal and bought a BX500 2TB. It works but when writing a large amount of data the speed drops almost down to zero and then picks up again after a while. Had a MX500 500GB before it in my machine and did not notice this problem.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 02:33:36 pm
content: Yeah, BX500 is not great for rapid writes, I made that mistake too.MX500 is a good SSD.Do not buy anything made by Kingston. Absolute trash tier company buying cheapest flash out there, and they do not stand behind their products.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 02:48:05 pm
content: Quote from: fzabkar on July 17, 2024, 03:07:41 amHah, Kioxia was Toshiba Memory Corporation, which bought OCZ brand, which became bankrupt due extreme RMA rates.I had one of these, died. A friend had another, died (The HDD, not him).I replaced soooooo many Toshiba/HGST HDDs...But you know, things can turn around quickly so they might make good stuff now.I was very happy with Evo 850 series, can't talk about 870.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 03:39:22 pm
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on July 17, 2024, 02:48:05 pmIt's funny blaming NAND manufacturer (used by many other brands) for buying bankrupt SSD brand. Also funnily enough Toshiba and HGST were some of the most reliable HDDs. Their issues with some worse models did not come even close to Seagate.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 08:01:58 pm
content: Here is an insight into the way that SSD manufacturers address NAND problems via firmware updates. It was written by Ace Laboratory, the most prominent developer of data recovery tools for SSDs and HDDs.https://forum.acelab.eu.com/viewtopic.php?f=227&t=8735Essentially, the firmware just keeps refreshing decaying NAND cells on a regular basis.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 08:05:52 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 17, 2024, 11:16:47 amI expect that the performance drops when the pseudo-SLC cache is filled and needs to be flushed.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 09:34:18 pm
content: Aha, in that article they say Samsung 840 ssd was terrible due poor quality TLC chips, they fixed the issues in the 850 by switching from TLC to 3D nand.So no reason to think the 870 is bad, but I can't tell.All I can say is my 500 gig 850 held the data perfectly fine for almost 10 years, mostly used for Windows OS.I stored games and downloads in a 2TB HDD.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 11:32:15 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 17, 2024, 03:39:22 pmI tend to agree. Anecdotal evidence of course, but I've used HGST hard drives in servers for about 15-20 years. Even the original 2TB drives which have been in service for many years are still fully functional today (although I consider them at the end of their life purely due to the number of hours on them). Of course these are enterprise drives and cost far more than your standard consumer drives.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2024, 12:59:24 am
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on July 17, 2024, 09:34:18 pmTLC and 3D have nothing to do with each other. You don't change from one to the other any more than you change from an electric car to a red car.3D refers to the physical construction of the cells. It means layers of them are physically stacked.TLC refers to the electronic configuration of each cell. In many modern NAND chips the cells can be configured at runtime to be SLC, MLC, TLC or QLC. The SLC mode is fastest but gives you the least space, QLC the opposite. Cheaper models will put most of the drive's chips into the densest mode, more expensive models sometimes configure it differently to meet different speed, size and marketing goals.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2024, 01:51:07 am
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on July 17, 2024, 09:34:18 pmThe issue was not NAND quality but poor handling of cell discharge by early FW resulting in slow read speeds of older data, and that was fixed by a FW update. Later SSD with 3D NAND were still TLC in EVO models, and now nobody even makes MLC SSD in consumer segment. Now TLC is "good", because you get QLC in cheaper SSD.

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2024, 03:32:19 pm
content: I settled on a WD Red SA500 "NAS" style SSD, potentially being commercial grade it ought to be designed with a focus more on longer life against higher "performance". Although the adverts say it is designed for NAS usage, if you look in to the details you find it doesn't have any of the unusual "give up quickly in event of a corrupted read" features a typical NAS drive does, rather it behaves just like a normal internal SATA drive. It is fine to boot (Linux) from. Another advantage was the type has never had any reports of needing firmware updates, none have ever been distributed, so it looks like they got the firmware of this Red drive type right first time, unlike the troubles they had with SA510 Blue drives, and unlike the troubles with various Samsung and Crucial models that wore themselves out fast due to firmware bugs which needed updates to fix them.I do get the feeling though, that in the SSD market, the stuff built to the highest quality, apart from commercial grade SATA stuff, is all designed for putting in to systems that use NVME, often SATA SSDs look to be built with lowering manufacture cost as the primary design intention. This isn't a good situation when you need an SSD specifically to replace a 2.5" SATA HDD, as I did recently (I had a long thread about the struggle to pick the right sort).

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2024, 06:59:35 pm
content: See the sh1t soldering on this SanDisk product:https://futurezone.at/produkte/sandisk-ssd-ausfaelle-western-digital-attingo-datenrettung-problem-hardware/402664391https://image.futurezone.at/images/cfs_932w/8312468/img6373-11.jpghttps://image.futurezone.at/images/cfs_landscape_1864w_1049h/8312462/202306160949371.jpg

author: Geoff-AU
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 12:07:33 am
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 17, 2024, 04:52:47 amYikes.Quote from: Postal2 on July 17, 2024, 06:07:33 amSo let's be crystal clear.. The link you have above sends out "known good" drives but they're "known good" only if you ordered them 6 years ago, and your sample size is 10.I think i'll stick with name brand, thanks.

author: deadlylover
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 12:16:04 am
content: Maybe not the most logical choice but if it's annoying you that you have to buy modern "garbage", how about an older enterprise/datacenter SSD? If you get lucky you can find things like the Intel S3610 or S3710 for relatively decent value on eBay (Samsung and Micron are also big players, throw up a "used" search on eBay).Of course you get no warranty but ehhhhh. Just be sure not to overspend compared to a new drive in terms of $/TB.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 01:52:59 am
content: Quote from: deadlylover on July 19, 2024, 12:16:04 amI wouldn't touch that old garbage with a ten foot pole. SSD usually do not wear really... unless used at data center. Also modern SSD have way less firmware issues (intel wasn't spared of them either), much stronger ECC than old drives and usually fail gracefully into read-only mode instead of just locking like early drives. BTW quick googling suggests S3610 was quite problematic, did not check another one.QuoteI don't think paying the price of a brand new low/mid end SSD price for a beat up drive is a good value. Also most of them come from China, so you cannot trust the use shown by SMART. A load of obsolete "brand new" enterprise SSD from China, yeah right.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 02:56:44 am
content: Some observations by a person who actually recovers data from NAND storage ...https://forum.hddguru.com/viewtopic.php?p=308770#p308770As for modern SSDs failing gracefully, that's not what happens. They most often fail without any warning, and they most often don't become read-only. Typical failure modes are "firmware panic" where the drive drops into safe mode, identifies itself with a factory alias and reports some low capacity, eg 1GB.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 03:32:20 am
content: Quote from: Geoff-AU on July 19, 2024, 12:07:33 amBuy a brand sticker and stick it on.I buy SSDs there all the time, the last ones this year. Inside is a chinese controller and a nand without a name.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 03:57:46 am
content: What happens to second and third grade NAND flash?https://www.hddoracle.com/viewtopic.php?p=23002#p23002

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 04:06:37 am
content: Agree that MX500 is good value for money, however there are rumors that newer MX500 are QLC (if they are not already.)So I'd want to check that before buying a MX500 today.But the typical TLC based MX500 that most of us have used are totally fine

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 08:43:14 am
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 19, 2024, 03:32:20 amI won't buy those chap SSD for anything serious because they often contain either low grade NAND (NAND manufacturers sell the same IC in several quality grades, including total trash) or NAND IC salvaged from e-waste.

author: mqsaharan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 09:49:45 am
content: Anybody has any idea about the quality/reliability of ADATA products. I'll appreciate any input. Although, I am asking it after the fact, at least, it'll give me some peace of mind.I was in almost the same situation back in 2021. My main computer's HDD died very unexpectedly. With the limited research that I could do at that time and very limited knowledge about SSDs, I finally picked ADATA SU800 512GB SSD. So far, it is working all right. Every now and then, I try to get an idea if it is working all right by looking at SMART values. But I am not sure how reliable even these are. As per their toolbox, I have written about 7TB to this drive in the past 3 and half years. And it is advertised up to 400TBW. If its electronics doesn't fail, I am hoping it might last longer than my computer.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 10:18:58 am
content: Quote from: wraper on July 19, 2024, 08:43:14 amAnything serious needs to be stored on a hard drive. SSD for the system. Everyone sells the same garbage at different prices. Why pay more?QuoteAll SSDs are made on nand chips. The classic aging option for these chips is the acceleration of charge leaking over time and overwriting. Just the next time you turn PC on, you will find that some part of the data is lost.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 10:54:44 am
content: For good workstations I'd always go for SSD companies that are in close cooperation with the chip-manufacturers. Many years in R&D compartments teach you that quality rises if you have close contact to the experts.I absolutely don't care if a manufacturer is Chinese or not. Let´s face it, China is involved in any product out on the worlds markets, and if the quality control is guaranteed it´s not worse or better than any other origin.A German computer technology journal of very high reputation did a lot of reliability tests for nowadays SSDs. As far as I got it there are two things to be aware of:- Server applications with enormous terabytes written - for this application you should use special hardware- SSDs in the end of their lifespan loose their data if archived somewhere. It´s no good idea to take your data SSD out of the computer where it was active for years, and put it into the archive to get the data years later. If a SSD was heavily used, you should copy it´s data somewhere else and discard it.Beside that SSDs are not more or less reliable as HDDs in an office environment. Just do backups.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 01:42:36 pm
content: Quote from: mqsaharan on July 19, 2024, 09:49:45 amADATA is totally fine and is one of the largest SSD brands.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 01:57:28 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 19, 2024, 10:18:58 amHDD are not more reliable at all, actually SSD are more reliable by publicly available statistics. HDD is only better if stored unpowered for years. And for storage in portable devises SSD is way better as they're not afraid of mechanical shock.QuoteHow it's the same as those cheap SSDs often contain "removable media grade" or even worse high cell defect NAND that is not supposed to be used in SSD to begin with. Attached document from SpecTek (Micron subsidiary that deals with their rejects) to show they'll happily sell junk.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 02:06:18 pm
content: Here is and example of junk NAND in cheap SSD. Three lines over original marking is SpecTek basically saying no guarantees, YMMV.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 02:26:36 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 19, 2024, 01:57:28 pmAnd for some give-away USB stick I happily buy this junk.It can't be that extremely bad. I have a batch of the very cheapest SD-cards for purposes where I do not care about loosing them. Some of these cards suddenly died, but many of them are absolutely okay. There are lots of applications where it is better to have cheap memory than to have no memory.And with high-quality SSDs I never experienced a single hardware failure so far **knockknocknock**

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 02:41:49 pm
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on July 19, 2024, 02:26:36 pmI had Plextor 1TB NVMe fail into read only mode. But all files were intact as far as I can tell after copying them at a fraction of normal speed.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 02:52:29 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 19, 2024, 02:06:18 pmThat is, first the official marking is applied, then the test is carried out, then oh, it didn’t work, let’s cross out everything?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 02:59:49 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 19, 2024, 02:52:29 pmThere are several tests at different stages. This could also be for mechanical defects, missing solder balls, high defect rate batch written off as a whole, whatever.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 03:07:12 pm
content: Also I would not necessarily trust marking at all. It may be marking applied on unmarked reject chips by 3rd party or old marking sanded off first, ashough you can usually figure out the latter. Parts sourcing is a really dodgy business in China as they even grind AMD/Nvidia bare silicon dies to apply a new marking.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 03:16:39 pm
content: always have backups, i had ssd died on me brand new ... remove the sticker ... pure junk ... lucky me it was not important BUT ....alsoI had an Western Digital who died because of spikes in the psu, and the psu is not a cheap brand btw ?? the computer was on sleep, the ssd simply died / shorted outi was on Asus TUF ... ditched the mobo (was still working fine) changed for an Msi who as better supply lines protections and added UPS on the ac linei would have said stay on the reputable brands .. but be sure of what your system can take and offer ... now the spikes are well handled and i have a beep from the ups telling me ...

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 03:41:16 pm
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on July 19, 2024, 03:16:39 pm...And vice-versa apply the sticker - pure brand.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 03:49:13 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 19, 2024, 01:57:28 pmThe chart you provided only goes up to 5 years for the SSD. I need 10+ years guarantee. All my hard drives for the last 15 years, (except for 1, been through 2 power supplies slowly dying, and my current 10 year old laptop one.) still have my data intact. Even a number of my burned DVDs and BDs seem to acquire defective bits.I dont like short term solutions. Though, with 2 backups of everything, I believe 2 good SSDs should retain my data for 2 decades. I hope. Or, am I missing something?

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 03:51:33 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on July 19, 2024, 04:06:37 amI have a recent version of the 1TB MX500 (M3CR043 firmware, manufacture date is week 10 of 2022). It has Micron's B47R flash.Crucial MX500 SSD hires scans:https://www.hddoracle.com/viewtopic.php?p=22537#p22537The part marking is NY133 which decodes to MT29F2T08EMLEEJ4-QA:E.https://www.micron.com/sales-support/design-tools/fbga-parts-decoderhttps://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Micron/MT29F2T08EMLEEJ4-RE?qs=iLbezkQI%252BshmtCoG8u2eKA%3D%3DThis NAND is 176-layer TLC. The process is CTF CuA (Charge Trap Flash, CMOS under Array).https://www.techinsights.com/blog/memory/micron-176l-3d-nand

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 04:18:45 pm
content: Goldenfir 256GB:

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 04:32:59 pm
content: You could use this to figure out what NAND this ishttps://www.usbdev.ru/files/silicongo/sgflashid/IMHO these are Micron rejects.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 04:35:40 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 19, 2024, 04:32:59 pmIf the chips are not crossed out, then the quality is good.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 04:38:11 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 19, 2024, 04:35:40 pmChips with 3 stripes are those already marked and with with zero guarantee. Others are either unmarked or have Spectek logo, often over original marking. Note that Reject does not mean it does not work. But it likely means its quality is too low for reliable SSD operation. As I have shown before, they sell different grades of trash.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 04:44:11 pm
content: In fact, what difference does it make what chips, the disk works fine. I have no desire to open every flash drive, it's all consumables.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 04:52:54 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 19, 2024, 04:44:11 pmThe difference is that cells may lose charge faster than normal or unevenly, have low write endurance, higher failure rate, a lot of bad cells, so less margin for ECC successfully retrieving good data. Manufacturers don't sell this questionable NAND under their brand name but as bargain grab bags for a reason.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 04:58:11 pm
content: Also you said they work fine for you. But how intensively do you use them? It might be they work fine but will give up after say 10 full rewrites.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 05:09:15 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 19, 2024, 04:52:54 pmEverything didn't hit. The disks have different systems, I change them, some very rarely, but when I use them, I do it very intensively. No problems found. The first disks, by the way, are 60 GB - they all work, and one in a netbook that gets very hot from Windows 10.QuoteI write full images to them, try it with your ssd...Last year I bought a used ST2000VM003 on Aliexpress, it works well. For now there is a place to store images. I have other HDDs also, of course.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 05:41:51 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 19, 2024, 04:35:40 pmThe people who made them are unwilling to even put their name and part number on them. Sure, they're great, 100%, that's why they stand by the product.Quote from: Postal2 on July 19, 2024, 05:09:15 pmAww, one full write, that's cute. Come back in another 200TiB.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 05:50:45 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 19, 2024, 05:41:51 pmI agree.Quote from: Monkeh on July 19, 2024, 05:41:51 pm1-2 times per disk, not much, I agree. But the 750GB and 1TB hdd WD died without finishing even one dump.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 05:52:17 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 19, 2024, 05:41:51 pmOEMs like Kingston, Adata, Sabrent always (?) rebrand the NAND flash, and sometimes even the controller. It's a common practice which IMO is dishonest, but this kind of badge engineering happens in every industry.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 06:13:21 pm
content: Quote from: fzabkar on July 19, 2024, 05:52:17 pmThere's rebranding and there's not marking it at all. Nobody is willing to put their stamp on those chips - there's a reason. It may be they're just too cheap to care, but that in itself is a red flag.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 06:46:16 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 19, 2024, 05:50:45 pmDecent SSD should survive at least a few hundred times of that. If HDD died while doing that, most likely it was bad to begin with and you just gave it a nudge to fail completely.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 02:24:18 am
content: Quote from: wraper on July 19, 2024, 06:46:16 pmI don't have much experience with defective SSDs, but I do have a tool for dealing with nand. slc-nand gets corrupted, but when read again it passes the comparison. mlc-nand fails the comparison and this is considered normal. That is, all this together with the SSD is unreliable garbage that works as it wants.Quote from: wraper on July 19, 2024, 06:46:16 pmThese were 2 blue and one black WD. The black one works fine, but the smart one is completely damaged, you can only use it via USB. I shared information that if you look at the smart HDD or SSD, you won’t see anything, because on the WD the smart were perfect before recording. If you are not accustomed to the model range, then smart will not say anything.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 06:09:11 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 17, 2024, 11:16:47 amThat model is QLC, can likely be firmware-hacked into a 500GB SLC drive:https://theoverclockingpage.com/2024/05/13/tutorial-transforming-a-qlc-ssd-into-an-slc-ssd-dramatically-increasing-the-drives-endurance/?lang=enI wonder about all the Chinese no-name drives with cheap/reject NAND - surely even abysmal quality TLC/QLC can be used in SLC mode and last as long if not longer than quality NAND, but at 1/3 or 1/4 the capacity? There are also some stores on AliExpress selling what they claim to be SLC USB drives with full disclosure of part numbers and performance that matches (e.g. look up "EVTRAN V03S"), along with reasonable-looking prices; even if they're recycled die, SLC is notoriously hard to wear out - which might be why it's so rare and overpriced.For some interesting historical perspective, look up the datasheet for KM29U64000T - a 25-year-old NAND flash - it's only 8MB in capacity, but rated forone millioncycles per block, or a total ofeight terabytes written, with 10 years of retention after those cycles have been reached. For latest QLC, what's the reliability? A few hundred cycles, after which retention for a year at most? What we gained in capacity, we lost severely in reliability and longevity. I think the sweet spot is somewhere between those two extremes, but as usual, corporate greed drove products toward the latter.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 09:50:17 am
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 20, 2024, 02:24:18 amThat's rich from you. You praise SSD with reject junk grade NAND inside but somehow SSD are garbage. There is basically no perfect perfect NAND with no defects beside some rare small capacity chips. That's why NAND usually come with BBT (bad blocks table) written to them from the factory and you shouldn't just write data into the chip without adjusting for bad blocks. All SSD come with ECC, much stronger on newer models. HDD are no different, basically all HDD come with defects on platters, and guess what, there is a BBT that hides particularly bad ones too. Not to say they read bad data from the platters all the time and only ECC saves the day.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 10:25:53 am
content: Quote from: wraper on July 20, 2024, 09:50:17 amNo matter how bad these nand-chips are, they are far from Samsung-evo (which is absolutely junk).

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 10:54:40 am
content: Quote from: wraper on July 20, 2024, 10:48:44 amThis is NOT a firmware problem! Read the sources carefully.Samsung is great, it knows what fools need, and the drive is really fast, as long as it doesn’t lose data. And then they released, of course, an improved version, and I would immediately believe their advertising that they supposedly fixed everything.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 11:21:47 am
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 20, 2024, 10:54:40 amI deleted that post within a few minutes because I found info about actually problematic batches of 870 EVO that were dying. But since you replied to that, it was a FW problem. All NAND gradually lose charge, barely a problem for SLC since there are no voltage level to distinguish, but memory controller must adjust with in NAND with multiple levels per cell. Early FW of 840 evo did not deal with that well (one of the earliest TLC NAND) causing read performance degradation, later FW fixed the issue.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 11:32:17 am
content: Quote from: wraper on July 20, 2024, 11:21:47 amFind my photo with SEC chips, enter the markings in the search, and you will see the necessary information. The firmware simply continuously rewrites data in the background, updating the charge. And the rate of data loss when turned off has not changed.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 12:26:00 pm
content: ^in what corner of internet should I find your photo?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 12:35:06 pm
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on July 16, 2024, 08:00:41 pm2.5" HDDs are not much cheaper (if at all) than SSDs nowadays, so might as well just use another SSD. Or put together a NAS with 3.5" drives which are still substantially cheaper than SSDs.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 01:13:23 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 20, 2024, 12:26:00 pmI repeat for you.Quotehttps://www.techspot.com/community/topics/when-ssd-performance-goes-awry-samsungs-ssd-840-read-performance-degradation-explained.212688/Somewhere the features of the firmware were described and it was indicated exactly how the firmware corrects the problem - it constantly rewrites the disk.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 02:19:55 pm
content: You never posted this photo nor in this thread, nor on this forum at all. This chip wasn't used until 850 EVO, and it's not a Samsung SSD but a generic Chinese SM2258 board of which there are a few variations with slightly different passive component placement. SY lasered twice over normal marking suggests it's a rejected junk grade chip as well.It starts looking like you got some junk SSD with rejected Samsung NAND, and now blame Samsung for that.https://www.aliexpress.com/i/1005006107344935.htmlMake SSD yourself at home, just add NAND and DRAM according to your needs.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 02:30:32 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 20, 2024, 02:19:55 pmYou're right. I wanted to save money and made the mistake of buying a disk with chips from Samsung-evo. And as a result, I got the same problem as the owners of the original Samsung Evo.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 02:37:15 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 20, 2024, 02:30:32 pmYou never specify what evo, there were quite a bit of them. 850 EVO that used this NAND is a reliable SSD that did not have any problems. You bought A cheap noname SSD, with different controller, NAND rejected by QC, likely very poor firmware and now blame Samsung for that.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 02:45:25 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 20, 2024, 02:37:15 pmQuotehttps://forum.hddguru.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=42844https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/why-did-my-samsung-850-evo-ssd-failed-while-stored-in-a-box.3622809/Quotehttps://goughlui.com/2016/11/08/note-samsung-850-evo-data-retention-performance-degradation/

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 03:00:44 pm
content: ^Wow, someone's SSD eventually failed after like 7-8 years of server operation considering when 850 EVO was released and when the post was made.QuoteAs if good SSD or HDD don't fail ever. Everything fails, it's all about failure rate, not that someone had a faulty SSD. You can barely find info of them failing while they were one of the most popular SSD of their time. It's funny to present this anecdotal evidence of many year long operation as an argument supporting your point.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 03:18:41 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 20, 2024, 03:00:44 pmI gave an example because there is a photo there. The remaining examples do not have photos.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 03:36:53 pm
content: A sad and yet unpredictable ending to a long story.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2024, 03:00:46 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on July 19, 2024, 03:49:13 pmIf you check the SSDs regularly and replace them at the first hint of corruption, this approach may work. I would recommend adding an offsite backup (e.g., in the cloud) to achieve the 3-2-1 objective: 3 copies of your data, stored on 2 different types of media, with 1 copy stored offsite.Software such as TrueNAS makes it easy to organize regular checks (they call them scrubs).