VW Engineer sentenced to 40-month prison term - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 11:25:55 pm
content: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-sentencing-idUSKCN1B51YPQuoteWhy aren't the executives in jail as well?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 11:30:17 pm
content: Exactly, how the hell are they getting away with blaming one guy.They probably tasked him with implementing their scheme. No way is it solely hisfault.

author: A@ron
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 11:35:25 pm
content: So one guy takes the fall for everyone along the chain who knew what was up and did nothing.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 11:37:54 pm
content: Everyone who ws in the command chain that approved the scam should be given the same sentence. I guess scapegoats still have a purpose....

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 11:43:05 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 27, 2017, 11:25:55 pmQuote from the linked article:U.S. prosecutors have charged eight current and former Volkswagen executives in connection with the diesel emissions cheating probe. Liang is one of the lowest-ranking executives charged so far.Another VW executive, Oliver Schmidt, has pleaded guilty and is scheduled to be sentenced in Detroit on Dec. 6. Under a plea agreement, Schmidt could face up to seven years in prison and a fine of between $40,000 and $400,000 after admitting to conspiring to mislead U.S regulators and violating clean air laws.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 11:45:56 pm
content: Thanks, IanB. I was about to comment here that evidently, nobody read the article to the end... This is just the beginning. I hope the executives getseriouspunishment.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 12:11:30 am
content: The German news reported: They can only charge / prosecute those who are in the USA.I think that lots of the VW executives will have canceled any planned trips to the US for the rest of their life.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 12:32:40 am
content: .... "Liang, with a large home in Southern California, a swimming pool and a $250,000 yearly income, “didn’t want to walk away from this lifestyle, which would have been the right thing to do.’’Engineers get pushed around all the time by management to skirt regulatory. I've quit a job over that.Because the executives only need a fall guy, they have their multi-million $ bonuses and could care less for the pissant that coded the firmware for this.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 12:38:46 am
content: Follow the money!Engineers don't make hugegraftcampaign contributions to the politicians

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 12:57:51 am
content: VW secret facility for developing defeat device"... that work occurred in close proximity to the offices of top executives and raises fresh questions about what management knew about the illicit conduct."As if CEO Martin Winterkorn may have to golf less

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 01:10:07 am
content: I have a feeling that people devising such a schemes, will also have devised ways to avoid the blame by claiming ignorance and shifting responsibility upon others. Obviously, heads need to roll, and lower to middle tier executives will do nicely. Why get your own hands dirty if you have people to do it for you.It would be terrible surprising if this were to be one of the rare occasions things didn't pan out that way.Quote from: floobydust on August 28, 2017, 12:32:40 amFall guy is the word that popped into my mind too.

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 01:59:24 am
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on August 28, 2017, 12:11:30 amOr at least until the statute of limitations expires.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 02:43:14 am
content: Quote from: Tom45 on August 28, 2017, 01:59:24 amWe don't have that in Australia.There have been a number of cold cases that have been revisited - even after 20 years - and with a fresh look and more advanced technology, results have ensued.I find the idea of someone being able to hide until some arbitrary time limit is reached and they can then walk away scot-free, fundamentally wrong.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 03:19:49 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 27, 2017, 11:47:51 pmFrom what I have heard, VW likes to call its executives engineers, and expects them to have an engineering background. This guy was the head of the diesel compliance group for the US, directly responsible for working with US regulators to make sure their vehicles were meeting requirements. He wasn't the guy designing the engine computer, he was that guys boss. Of course I also hope that the higher up executives that have been charged will also be punished, but I think it is good if engineers and low level managers also know that when they submit documents with their name on them, it means something.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 05:09:27 am
content: When the guilty engineer(he is not junior ,if a boss ) signed the project , he is responsable for the good (Salaries) and for the bad .Unless on USA there are justice, and they put on jail to the bosses and executives, here on the Alfaques Case( 217 died) only were condemned to the truck driver(evapored), to the loader and to the loader's supervisor , for up anybody.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 10:38:30 am
content: 38,000 people a year die early because of diesel emissions testing failureshttps://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/15/diesel-emissions-test-scandal-causes-38000-early-deaths-year-studyIt should be life sentence IMHO. For everyone, who knowingly made profit from this (AKA the big guys). Not just VW. Also for the politicians, who just pushed and pushed, and keep on pushing diesel cars in Europe. Have you seen the stuff, which comes out that so-called turbo diesel when accelerating? How is that better than benzin?A hybrid has 6mg NOx emission / km. An electric car has 0. They measured the VW Jetta was up to 1500 mg/km. This madness has to stop.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 10:58:01 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on August 28, 2017, 10:38:30 amNice catch, NAND!A very nice finding with a far more interesting report:Virtually all diesel cars produce far more toxic nitrogen oxides.-George<EDIT>Link title correction...

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 11:59:14 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on August 28, 2017, 10:38:30 amA plug in electric car doesn't have 0 emissions. It just has them in a different place. Unless your electricity comes mostly from nuclear and/or solar/wind. And those have an awful lot of emissions in their construction.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 12:07:05 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on August 28, 2017, 10:38:30 amYou forgot to factor in the amount of NOx a power plant may emit (this also depends on it's age). And yes, that is way more than a car! So in the end an electric car isn't as clean as you might think. BTW smoke you see isn't a problem because those particles are too big to cause health problems.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 12:16:09 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 28, 2017, 11:59:14 am53% nuclear, 40% fossil electricity and 7% renewable electricity for Belgium.And that 40% is mostly natural gas (33%). As a bonus, the emission is not "in your face" type, in the middle of a city.Sure, you can call it "not green", but it is soo much more cleaner. As I wrote, 250 hybrid car pollutes as much NOx as 1 diesel. And here comes the biggest issue. It had the device built in, to reduce the NOx emission. It was turned off.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 12:19:27 pm
content: VW may have been up to a scam on this one, but they are by no means the only ones. There seems to be a judgemental bias involved when VW get the book thrown at them, but the dodgy practices exposed in Climategate get the whitewash treatment.Then again, what about the claims made by windturbine promoters that wind energy would be too cheap to be worth metering, and that nationwide deployment would give continuous power because 'the wind always blows somewhere.'If there was a level playing field on this, those guys would be doing time for deceiving the public too.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 12:56:54 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on August 28, 2017, 12:19:27 pmYou're absolutely right.The common element is decision-making via convincing politicians, rather than via convincing the public.It's quite amazing to see the flip-flop in Europe, from the governments doing everything they could to push people to diesel for a decade or more, and now talking about banning diesels entirely.Given that something like 45% of every barrel of oil naturally distils into petrol while about 25% distils into diesel, it always was and always will be a nonsense to push *everyone* into using diesel. What are you going to do -- throw the petrol away?

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 01:19:09 pm
content: Mazda's recently-announced "Skyactiv-G Generation 2" looks like a true breakthrough, by the way. Petrol engines with 18:1 compression ratio and compression ignition (most of the time) promising something like 30% improvement in fuel economy.This is a first in a road car (or will be when it hits the market "before 2020"), but appears to be very similar to what is now in the current generation of Formula 1 cars. For those not following, several years ago F1 changed from 2.4l normally-aspirated V8s to 1.6l V6 turbo hybrids. At the same time they reduced the allowable fuel used in a ~300 km race from 150 kg to 100 kg.At first the new cars were considerably slower than the old ones, but this year they are starting to set new lap records, even beating the 1995-2005 records set by the monster 3.0l V10s and V12s with unlimited RPM (up to 18000 or 19000) and unlimited fuel use and engines barely lasting for a whole race (now each driver is restricted to four engines for the whole 20 race season).Mercedes are believed to have been the first to perfect compression ignition in the new engines, with Ferrari finally getting it right this year, and Renault trailing.So it seems possible that Mercedes might, if they choose to, beat Mazda to market with this technology. In quite a different price range, of course.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 05:21:35 pm
content: The article mentions that they want to consider HOUSE ARREST and also that he is still an employee of VW just not as an engineer. Also the article says VW doesn't want to mention anything about their employee/personel and keeping their mouth otherwise very shut.This smells exactly like Liang is taking the fall for the team, under what appears to be a back-room deal where he would be the only one to pin a felony on.... and therefore let the rest of VW's executives shield themselves. VW also made a deal with USA gov't in exchange for promising the $25 billion for resolving issues with their customers and so on for cleaning up this mess.Hopefully Liang is being given several $million$ to shut up and take it for the team. If he gets house arrest and he is technically still employed by VW, he can keep working for VW remotely. This is all a "white collar" crime settlement where they need to nail someone responsible and found the sacrificial engineer.He is 63 so perhaps close to retirement as well... give him a nice fat early retirement package, he gets 40 months (3 years 4 months) hopefully spent at home, by the time his sentence is done he is over 66.... technically retirement age. He then walks away carrying the responsibility of this event on his shoulders, white-washing all other VW execs and they can easily keep him comfortable the rest of his life in retirement.Yup, that is how corporations do things. Would you expect anything else?

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 09:57:39 pm
content: Executives give verbal "suggestions" to subordinates to break the law. Executives almost invariably have high-priced law firms to pummel the prosecution into subservience. The whole goal is to wear down the prosecutors and coerce them into picking an easier scapegoat. Enter the engineer.Engineers document everything. Engineers virtually never have a lawyer much less a top law firm.So, guess which of the above will go to prison? By virtue of the nature of the work, engineers are easy targets.Never break the law on behalf of an executive and their "suggestion." Just don't do it. Document and protect yourself as a whistleblower. You will likely get fired, but unemployment beats the shit out of a felony conviction and club fed. If you've really been wronged, you can file a whistleblower suit, but do prepared. Such suits are not easy and take a huge toll on everyone involved.

author: Naguissa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 10:26:10 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on August 28, 2017, 10:38:30 amHey, in 2 years my bmw 320i e36 is banned on my city.It has no catalyzer, but it's 'homologated' and I can install it if I wish with no extra approvals.But as it will be banned anyway, I'll not do it.The case is that as it's a strange combination the car was checked several times for emissions as it was equipped with catalyzer, and passed all tests! A little just, but it passed without trouble.So, it will be banned (even with catalyzer) but VW TDI models with defeat system will be allowed.Vodka user said: Alfaques, Tarragona, Spain.My city: Barcelona, Spain.We can see a pattern here....Enviado desde mi Jolla mediante Tapatalk

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2017, 02:33:22 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 28, 2017, 01:19:09 pmI read an article back in the 90s where Honda had converted I believe a CR250 2-stroke dirt bike to homogeneous charge compression ignition (HCCI). They brought it to the USA to compete in a cross country desert race. 2-strokes had not competed in many years. The bike and rider did quite well. They had a flap valve in the exhaust port to change the CR. It would start with the plug and then switch over to compression ignition. I later saw a commercially available 3 cylinder marine engine that used HCCI. I thought the technology had been in use for some time in Japan but maybe not.I have built my own open loop compression ignition engines, purely by mistake. They never seem to run more than a few seconds.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2017, 09:05:58 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 28, 2017, 11:59:14 amAnd the diesel just comes out of a tap with no gas powered drills, no plant built or energy required to process it right?Even if the emissions exist, they are not manufactured in the middle of city centers and do not affect health nearly as much. They would also add similarly in both cases.https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/opinion/mondaycop22-lower-co2-emissions-with-lower-carbon-solar-energy/Quoteleaf = 5.4 Miles / kWh = 8.7kmhttp://insideevs.com/long-term-nissan-leaf-mileageusage-review-once-around-the-sun/Diesel fuel produces 2.7kg of CO2 per liter, car is lets say 5L/100km or 13.5kg/100km.So after driving 1km, a solar powered leaf would "produce" ~2g of CO2, while the VW diesel would produce 135g, 68 times more.Good luck finding data for NO2 produced when making a solar panel or hydro plant, its probably minuscule after amortization.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2017, 10:49:57 pm
content: A Leaf needs more energy. More like 4.5km/kWh according to real world EPA tests. Besides that you also need to factor in the CO2 during manufacturing. All in all it takes 150000km before an EV breaks even with an economic petrol/diesel where it comes to CO2 emissions. And by then the battery pack in the EV likely needs replacing.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2017, 11:30:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 29, 2017, 10:49:57 pmThat's real world driving data, EPA test is not as relevant, but ok.Are you also taking into account CO2 to produce a conventional car? Lets just look at the battery, as that is the main difference:Quote30kWh = 5,250 kg, or about 40,000 km of diesel driving.Anyway the leaf battery pack should last more than 10 years where I live (older packs hit 76% capacity after 125,000km). Hotter climates are not appropriate for some cells, and they don't last long there.Tesla estimates 500,000 km before their pack drops to 80%:https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 08:01:30 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 29, 2017, 10:49:57 pmEverything what you are saying is bogus without a source.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 09:46:12 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on August 30, 2017, 08:01:30 amYou can go to EPA's website and Google the rest yourself! You've got internet and this has been debated to death already on this forum including links to scientific reports. There is no need to derive every formula before posting it.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 10:40:19 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 30, 2017, 09:46:12 amYou mean this myths has been debunked over and over again.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 11:07:14 am
content: First hit from Google: EPA data for a Nissan Leaf:34kWh/160km=212Wh/km

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 12:34:53 pm
content: http://www.roperld.com/science/graphics/LEAF2013EPA.jpgAnd you had other 3 claims. Like at 150.000 you need new battery. While it is under warranty for 160.000 Km. Or the made up number for breaking even.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 06:54:13 pm
content: Something similar is going on with health care and profit driven insurers who are eager to cut costs by preventing care and driving away or dumping sick patients. Doctors are being put in the same position as these engineers by what are increasingly "mangled care" companies. Under one popular system, called "capitation" they get paid a fixed fee per patient and make money when their patients are not using care. They cant even discuss tests or treatments the insurer hasn't approved with them in advance. Another approach is called "risk sharing" the risk refers to the cost of denying care if the strategy backfires.Quote from: LabSpokane on 2017-08-28, 15:57:39

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 08:29:40 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 30, 2017, 11:07:14 amThats 2011 leaf. But I know why the user reported numbers are a off, "Remember that EPA figures measure plug-to-wheels consumption, this means that the internal charger efficiency matters."http://pushevs.com/2016/11/23/electric-cars-range-efficiency-comparison/So the user value is a bit lower (10% or so), as the efficiency of the internal charger is ~91% (using 240V outlet). Not sure if EPA used 91% or another value (120V charging is much less efficient).Of course, good luck taking into account the energy required to transport the gas, power the gas pump and station, etc. as well.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 09:36:10 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on August 31, 2017, 08:29:40 pmThat really doesn't matter because people are confronted by what they need to pay at the gas station and/or to the power company. If you measure wall-plug or (liquid) volume put into a tank to distance travelled you can compare different cars. If you are going to cherry-pick efficiency numbers then this comparison gets needlessly complicated.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 10:01:39 pm
content: With the recent EU emission standards in the big countries i've noticed a huge influx of older diesel cars in my country.I'm personally not interested in getting an economic car with low emissions, since my budget doesn't leave me with a choice.When i was looking for a car my main criteria was for it to not be a diesel, mainly for the tractor-ish sound and secondly for ease of maintenance.Right now, at least where i live, diesels are absolutely everywhere.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 10:12:27 pm
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on August 31, 2017, 10:01:39 pmI have a perfectly serviceable 1997 2.5l AWD station wagon that uses about 7.8 l/100km on the open road and 9 l/100km in my everyday part city part urban motorway use. I do about the standard 15000 km a year i.e. use about 1300 litres a year, or say NZ$2500 (US$1800).The current model of the same car costs NZ$50000 (US$35000) and has an urban rating of 9.0 l/100km and extra-urban 6.3 l/100km, 7.3 combined.Let's say that 7.3 combined is equivalent to my actual every day 9.0. I could save 255 litres a year, or about NZ$500 (US$360)!!!The payback period on spending $50k to save $0.5k a year is 100 years, even with a zero interest rate. Even if I allow for a new car costing zero in maintenance for a few years, while my old car might cost about $500 every six months, that's still 33 years payback period. With no interest/discount rate.It just makes no sense at all, as long as I'm enjoying the old car and the expenses of running it stay as they are.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 11:50:35 pm
content: Quote from: Gregg on August 28, 2017, 12:38:46 amThe engineer may not have known what the code was doing, he may just have been instructed to install that particular version of code for instance. Just following orders.Sent from my SM-J510FN using Tapatalk