Risk of seizure in EU of importing non RoHS compliant Test Equipment from USA? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2019, 04:39:17 pm
content: Not just USA but most interesting and affordable stuff is available there. So, what are the chances of getting an expensive bit of test gear, that you bought on Ebay, getting seized by customs because it isn't RoHS compliant?If it were seized, what happens next? Are you given the opportunity to pay to have it shipped back to the sellor assuming they are prepared to take it back, or is it simply destroyed?I understand German customs are particularly zealous but has anyone elsewhere in th EU had such problems or know someone who has - especially in the UK? It could be very expensive if so - and particularly galling if the equipment was actually manufactured in the UK (eg. Datron).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2019, 05:10:09 pm
content: I never had any problems (including very old gear from the pre-ROHS and pre-CE era).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2019, 06:21:05 pm
content: I thought RoHS only applied to new products, not used?

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2019, 07:45:15 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 29, 2019, 06:21:05 pmI asked Keysight about buying a used 3458a from their ebay store, should one become available, but was told they can't be shipped to the EU because they aren't RoHS compliant so it seems it does apply to used equipment.Obviously it would be a massive loophole to allow almost new non RoHS stuff to be imported but there should be exceptions for specialised equipment, some of which has no modern day equivalent with the same performance. In the case of the 3458a, for example, there is no other meter available that I know of which can match its linearity which is important for some types of measurements.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2019, 08:05:22 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 29, 2019, 06:21:05 pmIf a unit was put onto theEuropeanmarket before RoHS became effective, it is indeed outside of the scope of RoHS. So you can sell it used to somebody else in Europe (or elsewhere) today.But if an old unit which was originally sold e.g. in the US before RoHS days is now imported into Europe for the first time, I don't think it is officially exempt. (Even if the sametypeof product had been sold in Europe as well in pre-RoHS days. That does not allow you to introduce further units into the European market post-RoHS, be they imported used units or newly produced.)That being said -- will anybody care at the customs office if you import a single piece of vintage equipment? Not likely, in my opinion.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2019, 09:14:02 pm
content: I would expect RoHS only applies to commercial imports for sale.I would expect the private importation of a single unit would not be subject to RoHS.

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2019, 09:28:34 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on April 29, 2019, 08:05:22 pmThat depends on you not being unlucky and getting the "jobsworth" who delights in finding the slightest infraction of the rules and makes you suffer no matter how irrelevant the rule is to the situation. Or you get the young turk who is determined to advance through the ranks as quickly as possible by examining the rulebook in fine detail so as to impress the boss with their indepth knowledge of even the most obscure parts of the regulations.The nightmare scenario is that government allow the customs service to charge hefty penalty fines for any infractions of the rules they uncover. Then allow customs to keep the revenue from the fines provided they become self-financing* rather like many local authorities have effectively privatized traffic enforcement such as parking and bus lane violations etc. At that point employees are incentivized by bonuses based on the number of tickets issued and now its all about the money. Park 1mm outside the bay and bingo! Comon sense and reason are no longer factors.*Maybe they already are.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 04:49:04 am
content: Quote from: soldar on April 29, 2019, 09:14:02 pmNo, I'm afraid there is no exemption.See e.g.http://rohs.exemptions.oeko.info/fileadmin/_migrated/content_uploads/UK_BERR_RoHS_guidance.pdf,page 9, clause 23.Again, will it be enforced in practice? Dunno... You will find many reports on the 'net of non-CE-compliant (current) products from China making it through customs, but also many reports of individual imports being stopped for lack of CE compliance. (And RoHS compliance is one of the requirements of CE compliance these days.)EDIT: Fixed the link -- thanks to magic for pointing that out.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 06:05:48 am
content: You added comma to the link and it 404s.Relevant paragraph:QuoteAnd if REACH defines "placing on the market" the same way, and it probably does, I guess it means that importation of hazardous lead alloys for personal use is criminal too. So much for "I will buy my solder from eBay".Quote from: splin on April 29, 2019, 04:39:17 pmYou know that the responsible way to handle toxic materials is NOT to simply send them to a country with lax regulationsedit:And by the way, RoHS is not only about lead but also several flame retardants used in plastics and considered for future inclusion is PVC. This may get interesting

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 06:15:29 am
content: RoHS is not enforced very strictly. It's a directive.QuoteIn the Netherlands this is enforced by the NVWA, and they basically only react to things.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 06:29:35 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on April 30, 2019, 06:15:29 amErr, no. A Directive is binding for the member states, and they have to implement it via national laws or regulations. Other CE requirements are Directives on the EU level as well, but you bet they are binding...

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 07:35:48 am
content: I didn't say is wasn't valid. I said that there basically isn't an agency occupied with active enforcement if you import stuff.You can declare products yourself, and from a certain volume customs should test it with X-ray fluorescence spectroscopy. They do not test small shipments either.It's an not an regulated market, like Brazil for example, you should not import them in the first place.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 08:24:11 am
content: I had a look at (PDF)The 'Blue Guide' on the implementation of EU product rules 2016.It is long and complex. The operative term is that the rules apply to products only when they are "placed in the EU market".QuoteSo you can bring it with you when you travel. No problem there. (Which is what I do all the time with products I buy in America if only to save the outrageous cost of shipping).Maybe digging deeper into the directives you can find a loophole for importing it but, in the worst of cases, you can always have somebody bring it over.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 09:19:40 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on April 30, 2019, 06:29:35 amIt is true though that enforcement of the various EUisms varies from country to country and you can sue us if you think we aren't fulfilling our obligations. I could name some EU treaties and regulations that are routinely being violated here except I won't shoot my footQuote from: soldar on April 30, 2019, 08:24:11 amNot only that but also avoid VAT on goods up to 400€.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 09:58:06 am
content: I missed another bullet point (because I stopped reading at the end of the page and this is on the next page):QuoteSo, I think you could make the case that the product is (1) in the stock or possession of the importer, and (2) not being supplied for distribution.In other words, it is not being imported for distribution or sale but for the importer's private possession and use.E.T.A:QuoteSo a one time purchase from a private party (consumer) would not be considered "placing in the market" and would not be subject to RoHS.

author: ElectronicSupersonic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 12:53:00 pm
content: Don't know about UK customs, but local Lithuanian customs only care about taxes (VAT on everything above 20€, plus import tax after a certain threshold). One should prove that the item in question does indeed cost the amount declared (with proof of purchase/payment to be provided). Don't even try cheating. I highly doubt they care about RoHS or even know what this abbreviation stands for.So it's country specific thing.

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 01:26:24 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on April 30, 2019, 09:58:06 amIf that were true it would drive a coach and horses through the intent of the regulations allowing anyone to import non-compliant stuff for their own use - ie. all end user purchasers from vendors outside the EU. My interpretation of the above is that as soon as you have 'supplied it' (for your own use), the importer (you) has 'made it available for use'.QuoteIt seems to me that as soon as you have it for your own use it has been placed in the market - you are (part of) the market and there is nothing stopping you selling it on to a third party.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 01:48:53 pm
content: Well, we interpret it differently. It explains quite extensively the concept of what is "placing in the market". I think if it were not an exception to the rule it would not be mentioned as an exception and would just be included in the general rule and no exceptions listed. They made some exceptions. What is your interpretation? What would it cover if not private imports not for sale? What do you think it covers?But, hey, if you want to argue against your own interests then be my guest.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 08:57:59 pm
content: Quote from: splin on April 30, 2019, 01:26:24 pmIMO you are right, that exemption seems to only apply when you buy something and put it in storage never to be used or resold.At the same time, I think you are wrong about consumer to consumer sales. It seems that if you import from a private person rather than - for instance - a surplus dealer, you are clear. The "placing on the market" has to be a commercial activity, which private sales are not.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 09:51:37 pm
content: That interpretation is ... interesting.We allow you to import something so long as you lock it up in a closet and never use it or sell it. Just for the satisfaction of knowing it is there. Yeah, that makes sense.If Brits interpret EU things that way I can understand Brexit.

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 11:08:17 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on April 30, 2019, 09:51:37 pmIt makes perfect sense to me - they are simply defining exactly at which point the product enters the market. It wouldn't be sensible to define it as being when the product is shipped to the EU. From the emboldend part below, if you import an item then it is considered to have been placed on the market when you make it available for distribution, consumption or use:QuoteQuoteI guess they could have defined it as the point it entered customs but clearly that isn't actually entering the market (place), only the EU. Defining it this way allows the importer to re-export the item(s) to another country outside the EU so that you can conduct an international trading business without having to use third parties to handle and ship items via non EU countries. Allowing the items to be imported to the EU, but not sold or used there, allows you to manage/inspect/modify/repair/sort/conglomerate items as required before reselling.I've no idea as to the level of proof required for such activities - in the extreme I guess they could require goods to remain in bonded customs warehouses like goods awaiting duty/tax payments. I'd guess most countries wouldn't require this and would ony take action if an official complaint was made.All the above is merely my interpretation of the legislation you quoted for which I have to thank you for locating and publishing it. From responses here I tend to agree that there is not much to worry about - but even so I'd still be a bit nervous spending $4000 or so with a small risk of losing it all.Actually finding something in the US sufficiently cheap to cover the extortionate shipping and handling charges is another matter.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 11:37:54 pm
content: Quote from: splin on April 30, 2019, 11:08:17 pmWhy don't you callher majesty's revenue and customsand ask them what the rules are and if there is any risk they will confiscate whatever it is you plan on importing from outside of the EU?

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 12:43:09 am
content: Quote from: splin on April 30, 2019, 11:08:17 pmHaving looked at Sodar's link,The 'Blue Guide' on the implementation of EU product rules 2016. a bit more I'm not at all sure that you can just import and re-export without a lot of pain. The document is long and complicated enough that I'd ignore my interpretation and read it yourself if it's important to you.It seems that you don't even have to import an item for it to have been 'made available to the market'.QuoteThis definately covers Ebay; there is more information on page 21 about online operators. In particular:QuoteWhether Ebay or the sellor is the operator isn't clear to me. It all seems to be a bit of a minefield and I can understand why some sellors won't sell to the EU.Another part that seems relevant is wrt 'Fulfilment Service Providers' which I assume includes Ebay's global shipping program:QuoteIf so, I assume Ebay's Global shipping service, being responsible, may refuse to ship a non-compliant item to the EU with attendant costs to be covered by the buyer or sellor. So even if your local customs don't take much interest in RoHS, the shipper may be much more so if they could be held liable for infringements. Maybe Ebay's global shipping program hasn't taken action historically there is no guarantee that they won't start tomorrow due to threats of legal action by the EU.My conclusion is that it is a risk importing non-RoHS equipment but as yet no-one here has reported having a problem as yet. However the higher the value of the item I guess the higher the risk of customs taking a closer look.

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 01:07:40 am
content: Quote from: apis on April 30, 2019, 11:37:54 pmSorry, but HMRC don't work that way. If you're lucky and it's a relatively simple query they will probably try to help an give a reasonable answer but even then you can't guarantee that they will stand by their advice later on.With more complicated or unusual cases, such as the above query, they most likely will decline to offer advice and tell you to take legal advice and that they reserve the right to take action or asess your tax liabilities as they see fit at some time in the future - even if it contradicts their own earlier advice or long standing common understanding of tax legislation. In other words it can be impossible for anyone to know the relevant law until a court makes an interpretation of what it really is rather than what everybody though it meant - including the politictians who drafted the law.I would guess it would be almost impossible to get any government official to give an unambiguous answer to anything except the most trivial query, especially if there was any chance that person may be liable for offering incorrect advice. Much easier to tell you to get your own legal advice. In any case government aren't in the business of offering a free legal advice service - if you need it you pay for it.

author: Jr460
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 02:19:00 am
content: You buy me something I want and have it shipped to me. Why? because you like me.I turn around a buy for around the same price a 3458 and send it to you as gift. Having never turned it on, I can claim it was unknown condition of a "rare vintage historical important equipment that is not longer manufactured (one with an HP badge)".Sure someone is going to want taxes on it, and that can factored into the deal.Has to be some way to deal with it. Say I moved to the EU and brought with me many things that were made pre-RoHS, is customs really going to inspect everything at that level?

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 06:10:13 am
content: I know a company that is producing non-rohs products since the conception of rohs up to today, there is not even CE on the products. Literally nobody cares.And no, the products were never rohs or ce exempt.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 06:23:51 am
content: Realistically nobody is ever going to get caught unless they are shipping container loads of stuff that is non-compliant. I've never heard of an individual having any trouble importing a non-ROHS device, if you tried to send 1,000 of them at once that may get a little more attention but even then that's small potatoes.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 07:16:18 am
content: IIRC somebody recently reported in another thread that German customs may sometimes confiscate privately imported devices if they lack a goddamn CE sticker. Possibly what the OP is alluding to in the third paragraph.North/West Europe is admittedly a little special place

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 09:03:44 am
content: When i imported an old 400 MHz HP fiber light receiver from USA last year, a german customs agent started asking about CE, without mentioning ROHS. I explained that was old lab equipment which cost a fortune when new and that i bought it for our lab. I also remember saying the power consumption was low, don't know why. They let me proceed, just paying EU import VAT. Of course, this was about € 150 or 200.Regards, Dieter

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 02:00:37 pm
content: How will Brexit affect the rules for ROHS and CE marking of goods imported into the UK?

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 02:19:28 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on May 01, 2019, 02:00:37 pmProbably very little for some time at least. I believe the intention is to follow all the EU rules wrt goods produced and manufactured to minimize barriers to trading with the EU. Things may diverge eventually but probably not for many years.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2019, 08:02:19 am
content: Quote from: splin on May 01, 2019, 12:43:09 amThe document and its intentions seem pretty clear to me. Manufacturers, distributors, sellers who habitually put their products on the market are subject to the rules regardless of their location. A seller who sells a unique thing (not a widely commercial product) to a buyer who intends to use it for personal use and not to resell it is not subject to those rules. The intent seems pretty clear to me and everything I read there matches.Laws and regulations are interpreted according to what they say textually (unless that is impossible). I really do not see the confusion. Just read what it says.Not speaking about this issue but just in general: I really do not understand how people can come up with convoluted interpretations of laws when the meaning can be easily construed just by reading what they say. The world is full of "sovereign citizens" and all sorts of crazy people who interpret the written word in ways that make no sense to me or to lawyers or judges. And these people insist they are right and the judges are wrong. Your Honor, I am not driving, I am traveling. It's a weird world full of weird people.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2019, 04:47:48 pm
content: Especially since no one has experience this being a problem.