Economics of FAKE chips - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: whatever
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 05:14:32 am
content: One hears stories of FAKE chips (ICs), but I wonder how common they are?Chip manuf and fabbing is expensive. And for chips that are used for common applications - -say retro computers, game consoles, arcade machine, etc -- repair techs are going to seek out reliable sources any way. If an eBay or Ali seller is scamming with as many fake chips as some of the vloggers are claiming(see below) , wouldn't bad actors been weeded out by now?Bottom line [my personal claim] : the stakes are too high for so many "fake chips" to be out there. Or the cost to go thru the effort of faking -- laser etching, printing, etc -- is too high for most applications. And if you (seller) got nailed by, say, a military/govt. contractor or medical industry repair facility, the legal costs -- even for eBay or Ali -- might be significant.I can see some profit motive in writing articles and creating vlogs about scary and concerning crisis in "fake chips". The thumbnails and presentations and claims in the vlogs are curious and suspicious.Dunno folks!Not sure about anything related to the weird "fake chip" claims.Refs:https://youtu.be/Knfv-Qp7Q2Uhttps://youtu.be/s8pQTZaOSLA

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 05:29:26 am
content: There are certain categories of chips that are basically guaranteed to be fake on Ali. Power MOSFETs are commonly faked.Fakes are rarely intentionally start as fakes. Doing that would indeed be a lot of effort and not worth it. For devices that are in a common supply, eventually a legitimate clone appears. After that happens, making a fake is as easy as adding a different laser etching.Common examples - a bunch of STM32 clones. MXT2088 turned into AD9288. All CY7C68013A on Ali are fakes now that there is a cheaper clone (don't remember the part number). I've got a few during pandemic when legit ones were not available, and they did work at least on a superficial level. But the markings came off with a bit of alcohol.Fakes are absolutely a commonplace, not just a way to make money on YT ads.

author: whatever
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 06:16:22 am
content: My main interest is vintage hi-fi audio chips. ASIC dacs and digital filter chips. And mos-fet and bjt transistors (power and signal). I have been buying from eBay and Ali for many years and have yet to encounter a defective item. I do know -- and have conducted -- the acetone test. And still, no fakes found on my end.No, I have not performance tested every chip I have purchased from Ali or eBay.It could be that I have working, laser etched fakes .And they were rejected by, say, Philips or Sony, way back in the late 1980s, for slightly subpar manuf tolerances. And that's what Chinese stockists now have in majority of their inventory.Can't speak for others -- YMMV.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 06:25:24 am
content: Well, you do need to evaluate the performance. Fakes are almost never non-functional. They just don't meet the specs. And rubbing is not a 100% test, this only helps against the worst ones.And sometimes you actually get better performance, at least on some characteristics:They just turn whatever ICs they have into whatever parts are in demand.

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 07:46:47 am
content: Well, that well known TDAxxx DAC chip, don't remember the model, but one with 3 crowns, is always fakedSome sellers are going even further - they use PCB of real device, and solder in that fake chip, for "proof" that it is non-fakeAlso, there are a lot of fake Yamaha and other brand "audio" capacitors - which never existed.To be honest, standard brands, like BHC RIFA, NCC, Rubycon, Sanyo - are faked at industrial scale.DS1302, DS1307, DS3231, PCF8574, PCF8575, Some Microchip PIC devices (entry range 16XXX), A lot of ONsemi and Renesas IGBTs - a small part of fakes I've been using almost dailyAnd while some work reasonably well, like PCFs and PICs, and DS having lower accuracy compared to original but still ok, IGBTs are nightmare - crystal is tiny, so SOA is very bad and they go poof poof often.For the ease of clone, when there's a need, they will fake anything. For example, there's a BASIC STAMP interpreter modules - fakes do exist and OEM tested and confirmed that they perform as good as genuine ones

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 08:04:41 am
content: The semiconductor industry is an extremely complex entity from R&D to final product. Not to mention the equipment and man power required for each process.https://www.semiconductors.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/BCG-x-SIA-Strengthening-the-Global-Semiconductor-Value-Chain-April-2021_1.pdfCompanies are now outsourcing packaging of semiconductors to various locations around the world to minimize costs.https://www.csis.org/blogs/perspectives-innovation/chips-and-semiconductor-packagingEquipment costs prohibit counterfeiting from scratch and even repackaging.E-wastes is probably the number one supply of "fakes" being sold on the market.https://www.americanerecycling.org/counterfeitssurge/This isn't just a few components here and there but tonnes of components.This would include obsolete components, factory rejects and/or seconds. Even miss marking can occur. Often these products are sold as is or relabelled.This isn't saying that all components and products sold from Asian markets are fakes. Many facilities over produce as well or have a turn over of older versions or supply. In more cases than not the products will be just fine and sold at discount.It's daunting prospect to try to identify whether or not something is fake when so many factors are prevalent. Best for the layman hobbyist to be aware that this may occur but not loss to much sleep over it.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 08:08:40 am
content: Quote from: whatever on December 13, 2023, 06:16:22 amProbably no one makes exact replacements today, so these will be recycled from e-waste. If you are lucky they will be genuine parts, usually recognized by having random date codes when you order more than one. That's often acceptable if something needs repair and you have no other choice. Be careful though, because I doubt that anyone tests those harvested parts if they are still good.If date codes are the same in the whole lot then markings are fake and all bets are off. They could be the part you ordered but "refreshed" to look like new, or a lower grade made to look like a higher grade, or a similar pin-compatible part. Or sometimes an incompatible part.One thing they are very unlikely to be is NOS, particularly if you order them from a poor 3rd world country which was not "the world's factory floor" yet at the time when the chips were made. NOS chips still exist, but they are mostly in the hands of old businesses in 1st world countries. Learn how to tell them apart from importers.Audio opamps from China are essentially 100% fake - completely different types with false markings. With some luck you may still find really common types like Philips NE5532 from recyclers, but that's about it. There is lots of importers of this crap around.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 08:28:05 am
content: Quote from: Jwillis on December 13, 2023, 08:04:41 amAnother source are clone or pin-compatible chips which simply get false markings right at the factory, or maybe come blank from the factory and get lasered somewhere else.When you buy "Texas Instruments" NE555 or 74HC595 from AliExpress, or DS18B20 or FT232, that's what you get.

author: ArdWar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 08:32:12 am
content: There are various kind of "fake" product, so how well it will actually work also varies a lot.Completely different type of product with the same package re-marked as something else, usually happen as one off scam with extremely rare vintage parts. Obviously won't even workDifferent product of the same class (functional analog) re-marked as well known product. Usually happen with boutique parts. Usually works but nowhere near as good as the originalCopy of original product re-marked as original parts, the part might not even use the same principles of operation. Happens a lot with STM32 clones for exampleWafer reject continued to be packaged as original product by 3rd party. Some manufacturer will reject the whole wafer for failing a spot check, so performances will vary.N+1 shift from contract manufacturing. Fairly rare in non-commodity semiconductor, but it happen nonetheless. Basically original product, just without the manufacturer's backing.Reused product pulled from recycling marked as new. Technically not fake and I personally would prefer this one over the other if not for the misleading part.and probably there's other modus too..

author: CaptDon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 01:40:36 pm
content: I bought some high power NPN darlington switch transistors through Ebay from china. They were a much lower rated part rebranded as the higher capacity part. They were in a TO-3 metal case and the originals had larger diameter legs. The chink parts had smaller diameter legs. Also, the Motorola batwing logo rubbed right off. This was an important repair for a time sensitive project and I got screwed. I refuse to buy any components from china or chinese sellers!! Screw me once..shame on you, screw me twice..shame on me. China refuses to rein in the forgery and fakery so they have lost me forever. Let my misfortune be your education!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 01:54:35 pm
content: Quote from: ArdWar on December 13, 2023, 08:32:12 amYou can also add to this list: prototype and/or unqualified parts from the manufacturer that do not meet the full specifications. These are not only wafer but fully packaged units. Depending on the manufacturer these can be somewhat easy to spot, as the marking will be different (either with an "X" or an unreleased revision).

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 02:17:02 pm
content: I think it's the simplest reason: you can order any part you want at semiconductor factories in China with whatever marking you want and then go selling it at whatever marketplace you like.Anything but passives on aliexpress is fake. There is anecdotal evidence about a single store on ali (https://www.aliexpress.com/store/2383059) that is said to be selling original parts, in particular, power transistors. I have not ordered anything from it yet. Maybe I will, out of curiosity. However, the parts it sells are priced accordingly. Often it will make more sense simply to order from a well-known reputable seller.Speaking of passives, they can't be viewed as fakes, because they don't claim to be anything else. However they usually lack any documentation. But often it's acceptable. A resistor is a resistor, same for inductors. It's easy to test them yourself. Fine for hobby and probably other non-critical stuff. Less so for capacitors: testing them for max working voltage is non-trivial, however they can still be fine for hobby use, and they're convenient when you get them in assorted values kits, which is a cheap and widespread offering on aliexpress.Oh an yes, some parts, such as power MOSFETs, can be literally free. You order some that are obviously fake, then you measure their basic parameters such as Rds(on) and Cgs, take photos of the measurements and screenshots of the respective datasheet sections, and open a dispute with "counterfeit item" for the reason.For me, in several cases, it resulted in the disputes being resolved in my favor in minutes, perhaps they have some AI-based dispute analyzer in action there. Not that I did this on purpose: I really was going to order some actual Chinese transistors, but received fake Chinese Chinese transistors instead. In the end I ended up having a handful of free transistors that can be used wherever they fit with regards to their parameters that I can measure.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 03:25:58 pm
content: A resistor is not a resistor.AliExpress is full of blue-painted carbon film resistors which are sold as metal film which they are not.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 03:33:15 pm
content: I'm involved in the Transistortester project and know of many cases of JFETs bought from China actually being jelly bean NPNs.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 03:55:45 pm
content: Quote from: shapirus on December 13, 2023, 02:17:02 pmThis can happen, but I suspect that they have rules against buying stuff deliberately to receive a refund (I know that a major Polish trade platform has such rules) and if you do it too often they may start to suspect something. Besides, the bottom of the barrel stuff that they sell as fakes is probably available very cheap elsewhere. Though not literally free, that's true.I recommend against "counterfeit item" claims, use "parameters not as described" instead because that's exactly the evidence you have. Sometimes "counterfeit" is accepted, sometimes they change it to "not as described", sometimes they make a fuss that you haven't provided proper evidence. Seehere(and the previous week's posts if you want more context).

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 04:03:32 pm
content: Yeah either way it's hit or miss, no real guarantees whatsoever. The only way to avoid fakes, and even that isn't 100% reliable, is to buy from reputable sellers. Chinese stuff has its place though, it's just not to be trusted by default.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 04:04:32 pm
content: Quote from: Jwillis on December 13, 2023, 08:04:41 amThe whole assembly and test (A&T) process is now outsourced in high volume. Whether the die is produced in house, or at a foundry like TSMC, the A&T is mostly done by a specialist A&T company. Even if you find the part you use is generally assembled and tested in house, that doesn't mean the parts you get will be. Many vendors who do their own A&T only have in house capacity for a base level of production, and surges in demand are dealt with by a specialist A&T place.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 04:11:57 pm
content: here attached picturebought from reputable sellers and it slipped thruon a very very expensive pcb guess witch one is fake loll

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 04:17:46 pm
content: That's an interesting point, too. Sometimes original chip markings look like painted crap, and fake ones look real good (often actually laser-etched). How do we tell them apart? No clue.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 04:35:42 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 13, 2023, 05:29:26 am2N3055 and other parts in metal case start intentionally as fake as they are just garbage with a tiny die that is poorly glued in the case that is poorly made by itself, and with tiny bond wires.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 05:03:15 pm
content: whatever:A large number of victims never know. The component will never fail until pushed to the limits or the failure is in shorter life span. Latter is not distinguishable from a random event in retail quantities. If it is detected, it’s months or years after the vendor disappears or you no longer have any realistic means of changing the situation. Sensible scammers also know their business and will instantly refund you without further questions, so everything looks like a honest mistake and top-quality customer service.Where is the business opportunity? If you get a component of lower class 10% cheaper, rebadge it and sell at a higher price or volume, here is your profit. 10% may not seem a lot to you, but multiply this by thousands of parts sold. Many perpetrators located in countries with lower prices too.I also see a wrong premise there. You assume that detection implies weeding out. It does not. The market does not like vacuum. Take selling illicit drugs as an example. You can put tens of thousands in prison. The hole is filled with another tens of thousands in weeks. And this is for something that involves illegal products, is done mostly locally, typically prosecuted by the state. Now… selling chips is not illegal, is done internationally, and usually the victim must file charges. Removal from the platform is also not a solution: the scammer cintinues under another handle with fresh reputation. It’s not even interrupting their operations, as they already use multiple handles with different identities.

author: Zenith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 05:19:16 pm
content: Quote from: whatever on December 13, 2023, 05:14:32 amI don't think it costs much to relabel chips on a small scale.Faking takes place at different levels. Not enough bucks in it to be worth the trouble to you, might be a nice little haul to someone in China, who say has a load of vintage 40 pin microprocessors 6502, whatever, genuine and believed to be good. Then when stock is running down, start to dilute the shipments with any old 40 pin packages relabeled as 6502 say, then ship total rubbish, and then disappear to pop up again under another name.It would be easy to relabel a load of jellybean op amps as premium op amps and when the customer received them, they would work, it's just that they wouldn't give the proper performance.Then there was this scam where stocks were tampered with in a warehouse. Genuine AMD Ryzen 3600s were removed from boxes and replaced with something that looked like an AMD 3600 at first glance, for the genuine chips to be sold. So a reputable dealer sold fake chips.My impression is that enough respectable Youtubers have commented on fakes, for it to be a significant risk when buying chips from Aliexpress in particular.Electrolytic capacitors are notorious for fakes. Some are quite hard to tell apart from the genuine items.

author: whatever
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 05:34:14 pm
content: Quote from: magic on December 13, 2023, 08:08:40 am100% fake?!!! That's quite a claim there, magic.So then what are Chinese manuf ofpre-maded/a converters and digital audio players using -- where do they source their parts from? Indeed, I have several of them (stuffed PCB kits or low-cost Topping DAC units) that use JRC NE5532. No issues with any item I have purchased. And AudioScienceReviews (ASR) tests hundreds of Chinese components, and they measure extremely well.All that said, what about the issue of Chinese parts vendors (who sell on ebay or Ali) actually holding and selling real, 100% genuine parts because they legitimately acquired genuine inventory? After all, there is parts market for the repair tech industry . I've heard that for every product -- say a Nintendo game console -- there are 10-100 replacement parts made concurrently for the repair industry. Think DigiKey and Mouser.And there are folks who order parts because they like to hoard. Dave Jones made a video about an estate sale of one such guy.About the re-sale of manuf defect throwaways ... well, when I worked in the manuf industry, out-of-spec waste was very carefully disposed (tracking it all the way to the landfill). So much legal stuff on the line for OEM if bad parts made it out into warehouses. So I'm not sure of a dumpster-diving Chinese industry using out-of-spec throw-aways, is an issue.

author: richnormand
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 05:57:09 pm
content: Failure analysis company owner was looking at boards coming back during the pandemic (and still now).Due to supply chain shortages and long lead times the buyers were using "brokers" to find stock. After looking at the failed boards they asked the manufacturers to send the raw spools used to stuff the board.In other cases the manufacturers themselves asked to test them before using them in their assembly lines (the smart ones....)So they sent the component spools they were using on those boards and over 90% were counterfeits (some even inserted backward on a spool).When asked to send new unused in original packaging spools the components were OK for paperwork, specs, packaging and ESD.HOWEVER.... further down the spool they were all fakes. Obviously the original sellers were assuming that if the buyer was thinking of doing an authenticity test they would not unwind a quarter of the wheel !Yes, counterfeit, remarked, jelly bean fake components are still very much an issue to this day.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 06:14:06 pm
content: Quote from: richnormand on December 13, 2023, 05:57:09 pmAnother issue I expect was a big deal during the shortage is real parts which have passed their sell by date being passed off as fresh, or accepted by desperate customers despite the date. Parts like this can sit in storage for years, steadily increasing the amount by which they are out of date, as nobody reputable wants to take a chance on large numbers of poor joints. There can be huge numbers of a part that the accountants don't want to write off, and put in a landfill, after a sudden slowdown in the market leaves the vendor with a massive overstock they can't clear before the solder by date. In troubled times some people take what you can get, and put up with the consequences for reliability.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 06:25:00 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 13, 2023, 04:35:42 pmAnother example is this, an LM358 dual opamp die wired as a single in DIP8. Such product has little reason to exist when you can buy LM321 in SOT23-5 with 50% lower power consumption, it appears to be made exclusively for faking more expensive single channel opamps (I have samples of NE5534, TL071, OP07, even μA741, and there are several different die types in them!). And it's not that hard to make, just a matter of a custom order from your packaging shop.The economics of it? Obvious: it simply means there is enough demand for counterfeit opamps to justify a relatively unsophisticated effort on industrial scale, even with very cheap parts.Quote from: whatever on December 13, 2023, 05:34:14 pmSorry, I meant specifically the junk you get from AliE or Chinese eBay sellers, and anyone importing it and selling on other sites like Amazon. As far as opamps go, almost everything from these sources is fake. Buy it, test it, tear it down, see yourself. For starters, most of it is simply too cheap to be real...Chinese manufacturers obviously don't buy on eBay, there are professional component distributors in China. LCSC is a known example of one that also sells to foreigners. You won't find obsolete types like OPA2604 there.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 06:34:51 pm
content: Quote from: whatever on December 13, 2023, 05:14:32 amYou're questioning that fake chips are an issue and as evidence you post a video showing clearly fake chips that just happen to work properly?You work with vintage audio and you've never gotten or heard of fake STK modules?There are many, many ways in which chips can be faked but appear functional--this can be recycled used products, products relabeled as higher or more desirable spec than they are, products manufactured with inferior or smaller dies (linear voltage regulators are notorious for this) and probably many more creative methods that I haven't thought of. Just because something nominally works--or even fully tests to spec--doesn't mean it is a properly documented genuine item. Just because the seller gets away with their deception doesn't mean it didn't happen.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 06:37:49 pm
content: Here is a video of Peladn factory assembling 'brand new' graphics cards from e-waste parts. At 5:58 you can see AOI machine showing awfully looking Samsung RAM chips with all different date/lot codes.

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 06:43:37 pm
content: Manufacturing of semiconductors is not so complex now, nor it requires very specific hardware and premises.I've personally been in China in one of such "factories", which was making wafers and their encapsulation into plastic enclosure "at home" (They were making smart cards for access systems). And their manufacturing facilities were less than 500 square meters, including lithography, epitaxy, chokhralsky machines and so on. And this was back in 2011. I believe, things went much further nowadays.

author: whatever
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 08:04:43 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 13, 2023, 06:34:51 pmIf a tree fell in a forest , and no one saw it happen, did it happen?

author: whatever
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 08:08:02 pm
content: Quote from: LinuxHata on December 13, 2023, 06:43:37 pmThis means what exactly ... that fakes are so close to genuine , that they are legit?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 08:10:00 pm
content: Quote from: whatever on December 13, 2023, 08:04:43 pmYes, it did.What's your point? If someone sells me a fake LM7805 regulator with a die from a smaller version in it and I happen to use it in an application that only uses a small amount of current-so it works, at least at first--does that mean it wasn't really fake?

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 08:30:34 pm
content: It is hard to say, whenever it is good or bad to have fake chips, but since market for them is so huge, that means that there is a demand, right?For example, fake DS3231 costs around $1. Genuine - $12.I'm using both, and the difference is as follows:1. Fake has lower precision - some of them might get late up to couple of minutes per year.2. As I've determined, and others did too (google for "DS3231 slow"), fake chips do not like to be quoted for time very often - as experimentally was determined, they need to be queried no faster than once per 820ms. If you query them faster, they will start to significantly lag behind (like several minutes per hour).3. Some of fakes have direct internal connection between Vdd and battery pin, which means that you will get bada-boom, if connect backup lithium battery to such chips.Now thinks for yourself, whenever these limitations are worth 12X less price for you?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 09:06:39 pm
content: Quote from: LinuxHata on December 13, 2023, 08:30:34 pmIt's bad in all aspects. The cheap argument only applies when they do not deceive to be something else. You are free to use cheap clone chip but you need to know what you actually buy.

author: whatever
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 10:49:43 pm
content: If you've had bad experiences with any chip, you may (subsequently) investigate that chip(s).Already, you may have some prejudices about ebay/Ali Chinese sellers. "Wun-hung-lo " So even if the Chinese seller did have the same quality inventory as DK/Mouser, that 1/100 dud is going to stick out. And it'll be a big deal for you. Especially if you are off your meds and/or run a YT channel that earns $ based on hot-button topics.Unlike Amazon or IMDB, positive reviews (which may be robotic or FAKE in themselves), real-word chip buyers will only make noises when it affects their bottom line.I see the chip industry as self-correcting. If and when the problemreallygets as bad as those claimed in EE forums (which is significantly equivalent to gossip and hearsay), and legit vlogs, customers will be lost and profits will tank.Negative feedback, positive feedback. That makes logical, economic sense.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 10:53:18 pm
content: Speaking of being off meds and similar issues...I sincerely hope that you have some financial interest in starting this thread and aren't only asking us to convince you that you aren't being ripped off when you buy those things yourself...BTW, I know it because I buy there too. But I don't expect miracles. Cheap stuff is fake, expensive stuff is still lottery. I consider Ali an OK source for recycled obsolete ICs if that's what I want, and their buyer protection so far saved my ass when things turned out even lower than my low expectations.Quote from: whatever on December 13, 2023, 10:49:43 pm... he wouldn't survive competition with the rest of AliBay sellersThis is actually a serious problem with all those "trade platforms". They don't give rat's ass, you can report stuff (I sometimes tried) and they don't believe you or don't care unless you are the brand that is being faked and threatening to sue them. Banning sellers is not good for trade, you see...

author: donlisms
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2023, 03:37:17 am
content: I enjoyed these documentary films on the process of refurbishing components. There is a little bit of advertising, and they're 11 or 12 years old, but still enlightening. I would assume all of these processes have been cleaned up by now, what with the strict new regulations and such. (Groovy music, too.)https://youtu.be/j9nasajve1o?feature=sharedhttps://youtu.be/5vN_7NJ4qYA?feature=shared

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2023, 04:31:03 am
content: Oh by the way, I once bought some ONSemi IGBT transistors on digikey. For plasma TV repair. FDP33 something, I believe.They were failing shortly after replacement. So I measured gaiin and VCEsat and it was very off.I took pictures and send to ONSemi, and they said that this is not their product and definitely are fakes.Also, there was a website back in 2000s, about DIY amplifiers, and there owner had same bad result with 2N3055 in metal cans, bought on digikey.So buying at big vendor is not a guarantee that you will not get a fake.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 14, 2023, 02:12:37 pm
content: Quote from: magic on December 13, 2023, 10:53:18 pmYes, I have plenty of good original components that I don't need and I would like to sell on ebay. However it's hard to justify creating listings, packing, go to post, pay for it while competing with high volume counterfeit sellers, and selling only a small amount occasionally because everyone either looks for cheapest price or does not trust ebay sellers. And you're not different in the eyes of those who wish to pay more and buy genuine stuff. So these components most likely will just eventually rot instead.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2023, 04:47:35 pm
content: Refurbishing is a separate concept, though. It should be emphasised.If somebody gets old, broken equipment, repairs it — with fresh or salvaged parts — and then honestly sells it as repaired/refurbished/used, we can’t call it a scam. This is very much in spirit of the long tradition of not throwing out repairable stuff and bringing it back to life. I perceive it as something positive, you may have a different view on this, but I believe we all agree: there is no fraud involved. As long as thre is no deceptionof any kind, the buyerproperly understandsthe state of the item, and the price is adjusted accordingly.Of course there are dishonest sellers, which would peddle repaired stuff as new, or misrepresent the state and history of used equipment. This would be scam. But please, keep these two concepts clearly separated.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2023, 05:14:07 pm
content: Here is a fresh case of a bizarre fake from Taobao -https://github.com/ataradov/usb-sniffer/issues/28#issuecomment-1868995696Device is marked and sold as LCMXO2-2000HC-6TG100C, but according to ID CODE, it is LCMXO2-1200HC.Obviously, it is not known how functional the "real" device is, but it is functional enough to provide the device ID and program the flash correctly. If it is working, I presume it would be more valuable as an actual device, since there is no way fake can work in a real system at all.No idea how this makes sense. It is possible that they were trying to bump the speed grade, but got the wrong label printed, or got the wrong batch of devices for re-printing.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 04:29:26 am
content: Quote from: richnormand on December 13, 2023, 05:57:09 pmThis is EXACTLY what happened to a company I worked for. Same scenario.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 10:07:38 am
content: Regarding your "free" transistors, who's to say that they will last more than an hour or day?Quote from: shapirus on December 13, 2023, 02:17:02 pm

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 11:08:39 am
content: Quote from: shapirus on December 13, 2023, 02:17:02 pmChinese seller using word "original" and "new original" for fake components. They using word "genuine" for notice that the thing is not fake...So, technically they are fair

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 01:53:09 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on December 26, 2023, 10:07:38 amMy limited experience demonstrates that they work just like you'd expect them to according to the measured parameters. They are simply to be treated as unmarked transistors with unknown specs. This might be just fine for many hobby applications.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 01:58:57 pm
content: Quote from: shapirus on December 26, 2023, 01:53:09 pmUsually fake components has worse specification and sometimes it may be defective, for example it can works unstable.This is pretty usual case when fake analog IC works for several seconds, then become unstable and then is stabilized again.The main issue with fake components is that this is like buying a cat in the bag, you never know how it will works...For example I got op-amp from aliexpress which cannot handle 50Ω load and unable to handle frequencies above 100 kHz, but according to it's marking and datasheet it should work ok with 50Ω load and 400 MHz... It works. But not as expected...

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 03:13:50 pm
content: Well yes. That's why my experience is limited to transistors and passives: so far I've found that if they work at all, they work.When it comes to anything more complicated, I'm getting genuine parts.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 05:57:48 pm
content: Its not just AE or similar traders pedaling junk, we've had problems with fake crap from mainstream sellers too, when a complaint has gone in and it's been investigated, it has often been the case it's restocked goods that have been swapped out by the unscrupulous initial customer that have been passed on by the unsuspecting trader as full spec., genuine parts.We've also had parts with ridiculously old date codes supplied as new items that we had no choice but to use. Some devices recently from a reputable UK seller, basic through hole stuff, had 1986 codes... FFS that's older than I am!Has to be said they were perfectly fine though