New EEVblog Lab Bandwidth - What to do with it? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 08:12:41 am
content: If you've been following another thread on a potential new lab space, what I'm now getting this week is upgraded internet bandwidth instead of a new space.An 8M / 8M symmetrical link installed this week sometime, and very likely upgrading to a 20M / 20M fibre link with the next few months.This is a huge upgrade from my current ADSL2+ connection that gives me about 15M / 0.9MSo what do I do with this new upload speed?The obvious thing is I can now do decent live streaming, but what and how?I could live video stream:- the Amp Hour radio show recording- shooting of videos- general lab work- video editing (which will now be done at the lab instead of at home)- and scheduled live showsWhat's the best method to do that these days?Ustream still?, Youtube Live?, something else?My EEVblog server has, I think, a 250Mbit link, but I'm not sure if it can handle a large number of live stream users, so best to use another service.What are the best cams to use these days?I already have the Microsoft Lifecam microscope, so that could be permanently set up and switchable. Would be nice if user could select a cam if that's possible?The idea would be to have on permanent PC setup for live streaming, and I could switch on/off when appropriate. It wouldn't be a 24hr/day thing of course.Probably auto-recording too, to a secondary youtube channel perhaps?Finally do the chat room thing right, IRC based of course, but with decent web tie-in for those not penguin enough.Any other ideas about what to do with the bandwidth?The idea is that I can now spend some decent money on a lab upgrade instead of the new space, so I don't want to skimp on solution here. I already have a small mechanical workshop area planned, and a even more shelving and another bench.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 08:33:04 am
content: http://www.twitch.tv/It's used a lot on the gaming community, live and with live comments.What I've heard (not that I did) twitch is better than ustream.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 08:44:56 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on May 04, 2014, 08:33:04 amSeems to be exclusively gaming?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 08:52:20 am
content: It looks like Youtube Live supports up to 6 cameras, but maybe not user selectable?https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2853812?hl=en

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 09:02:35 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on May 04, 2014, 08:33:04 amTwitch is the gaming arm of Justin.tv, gaming only.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 10:27:35 am
content: I looked a these Logitech cams a while back, and they still don't have PC support. But they do stream direct to ustream via WiFi.Not sure if multiple cams on the one ustream channel would be supported though. But advantage is no PC, and switch on and off easily.http://www.logitech.com/en-au/product/broadcaster-wifi-webcam?crid=34

author: TiN
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 10:41:38 am
content: Live stream for teardowns would be coolSo we can participate in destroying another 10K$ piece of gearAnd general lab stuff + scheduled live stuff.Also maybe live lab cleaning? It's often cool too find something interesting during this nasty process

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 10:45:42 am
content: Quote from: TiN on May 04, 2014, 10:41:38 amThat's no so easy, as I'd have to make sure I got proper angles and close-ups etc for the live audience as well as the proper main camera recording. Could make a teardown take 3 times as long.

author: TiN
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 11:04:12 am
content: That probably would not need to be so involving. Just general angle with fixed cam would do fine, as everybody still understand that detail shots would be in actual teardown video. Or maybe have just part of whole teardown to be live, for example after you already shoot all footage, and about to assemble unit back. So it could be some Q&A style liveOr live repairs. That's best thing to get from live format, as lot of people out there have different experience in various areas.

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 11:33:41 am
content: Would extra HDMI cable from camera interfere with you working on the bench? No matter what I think live streaming will change your workflow.What about HDMI-out on your main camera and stream that directly, second webcam for more overview and/or face shot. For examplehttp://www.amazon.com/AVerMedia-Recorder-CV710-ExtremeCap-U3/dp/B00G9QTUVEcomes highly recommended by game people on youtube (review by your fellow ozzie from Sydney, Blunty)Use something likehttp://obsproject.com/indexto stream to justin.tv or youtube or whatever.http://www.howtogeek.com/183231/how-to-record-your-desktop-and-create-a-screencast-on-windows/Simple instructions how to use it. Twitch/Justin.tv seems to have really good quality with "source" streaming if you can handle the bandwidth and hardware requirements. Open Broadcaster Software should work with any source imaginable. If you can view it you can stream it.Also use HDMI switch to change sources for main picture stream, from your video camera to Tagarno. Chinese hdmi switches cost nearly nothinghttp://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Port-1080P-Video-HDMI-Switch-Switcher-Splitter-IR-Remote-for-HDTV-PS3-HD-DVD-/131117688340?pt=US_Video_Cables_Adapters&hash=item1e87392614cannot say anything about that particular switch, ebay is tricky.I have one from local store "goobay 5x1 hdmi switch", rebranded chinese switch. The one I have older version with remote and automatic switching when it senses input for example from raspberry pi. No need to get crappy manual hdmi switch with push buttons without any sensing. It also stores EDID for display, lightining fast switching, from what I understand some switches might require second or two for replugging the source. I use mine from HDMI sources to normal DVI output. Since HDMI input on my display has some crap on it, it changes colours and forces some weird scaling and all that kind of stuff.EDIT: I think canon also outputs on screen display stuff from HDMI, but would that be such bad thing? It still outputs Full HD from the HDMI, so still have plenty of screen realestate to look at and OSD stuff could be partly covered with that webcam, or maybe two?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 11:47:08 am
content: Quote from: TiN on May 04, 2014, 11:04:12 amYeah, that was the intention, to perhaps turn the cam on live when I was shooting a video, be it a teardown or whatever.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 11:56:20 am
content: Plant a webcam in the top corner near the door, and have it live streaming with probably max 50 connections allowed and a 5 minute timeout. That way you can have some live video until you decide you are in need of the full bandwidth, and disable the camera or have a static "Bus, come back later" message served.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 12:01:39 pm
content: Quote from: Legit-Design on May 04, 2014, 11:33:41 amYes it would. Not only do I love having no cord on my camera (I have a battery that lasts all day), the camera is being constantly moved, and there is no PC within reach anyway. It would be a complete PITA.QuoteYou can get more convenient units than than that, ones that mount on the camera, and stream HDMI via WiFi direct to Ustream.I have considered these before, but ultimately it's just another box to get in the way, and doesn't have the battery life to match the camera.The only option would be a cam that sits in the corner that I can completely ignore. But multiple cams would be handy for proper live shows.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 12:05:43 pm
content: Ask Jeri what she did. I recall her cams were switchable via IRC bot commands. Also, reading chat via text-to-voice (with user selectable voices), and special sounds by voice/word. I recall a number of EEVBlog sound bites in itOr since Jeri's perpetually busy, is... Bobcat here, or something?? There were a number of people who really knew the system, much better than a mere viewer...Tim

author: BBQ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 12:26:30 pm
content: Streaming the instrument screens?Live-streamed voltage standard drift?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 12:36:12 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on May 04, 2014, 11:56:20 amThat's the wrong way to do it. You never want to use your own connection to stream direct to people. More than few people viewing would hog all your bandwidth and then no one else gets to see it, or the quality sucks for all. It's infinitely better to use a broadcast service like ustream that is designed for large scale broadcast.As I mentioned, the EEVblog server could be set up to broadcast, but the same problems exist, it's not designed to do that, and it's got the run the forum and website.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 12:38:54 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on May 04, 2014, 12:05:43 pmJeri used a pro video mixing and broadcast rig from a company she used to work for. I recall she used ustream for the actual broadcast though?In either case the quality was pretty awful IIRC, I'm hoping I can get much better than that.

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 12:51:44 pm
content: As someone who lives 6km from the nearest exchange so has rubbish broadband, I'd like to enter a plea to ensure that if videos go to super HD a low definition option is always available (or perhaps a HD download rather than streaming).I think that utube probably has this by default but I thought I'd flag it up anyway. It can be an issue on some websites where the producers of them have super fast connections and don't check what effect embedded video (for instance) has on us country bumpkins!The idea of using the extra bandwidth to introduce choice seems a good one. Perhaps you could have a parallel channel with Sagan producing his own version from a different camera angle.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 12:52:35 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on May 04, 2014, 12:36:51 pmIt's ok to say I'm crazy for wanting faster internet access and trying to make use of it to improve the variety of my content

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 12:57:04 pm
content: Quote from: jpb on May 04, 2014, 12:51:44 pmYes, of course. I have not checked , but if say ustream doesn't have the option to downconvert for viewers then that kinda kills the whole idea of having higher resolution streaming content if few can actually watch it.But then, were do you set the limit? Is it's 800x600? 640x480?, 320x200? and at what compression level?Bare in mind, streaming video is more of a novelty than anything else, just so people can watch in when they are bored or whatever.At least live shows are interactive, but they have been troublesome and limited in the past due to my relatively poor upload bandwidth.

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 01:25:46 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 04, 2014, 12:57:04 pmhttps://ustream.zendesk.com/entries/22962268-Encoding-Specs-and-Stream-SettingsQuote from:https://ustream.zendesk.com/entries/22962268-Encoding-Specs-and-Stream-Settingshttps://ustream.zendesk.com/entries/22682820-Broadcasting-to-Ustream-with-Wirecast#multiple_streamslooks like streamer can have the option to send multiple different quality streams. I think with justin.tv streamer has to have paid account or high enough stream quality so viewers can select quality. And if you have high enough stream quality they need to have available resources for different quality options.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 01:32:09 pm
content: More bandwidth for you uploading will be great, as a content producer more up is preferred. adding the extra high resolution files will not affect the others of us with poor connections, as YT in any case does generate the lower resolution streams automatically. I watch motly either in VGA or if it is something in the YT player window it varies from VGA to QVGA depending on whatever affects the stream connection. Even a Google hangout or any of the other video conferencing software does automatically compensate for lower bandwidth.I watch Astronomy Cast and the video and audio from each end is great even on poor connections as they record both ends locally and then edit later to get the best quality. The PIP windows can stutter and freeze but the final result is great with a little editing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 01:48:35 pm
content: Quote from: Legit-Design on May 04, 2014, 01:25:46 pmAh, thanks:So it should work my my Pro account. Else I have to actually stream multiple resolutions.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 02:39:43 pm
content: I'd suggest doing live streaming only for q&a sessions or videos like the recent microphone series ones or mail bag videos ... these can be scheduled 1-3 days in advance so people will know to come and watch.In the case of the mail bag videos, having a fixed weekly day may motivate you to check mail more often and may also motivate people to send more mail because they'll have the suspense of watching live if you check their mail this week or not, and they could chat back to you live if you ask some questions to live audience. You also don't need lots of angles for this and I guess you can edit the video to remove the audience interaction relatively easy.uStream is probably the best, but the free version is choked with ads.. there's like one 20s-1m video ad every 10-15 minutes so it would be somewhat annoying unless you'd pay for the premium account. (and even then you have a limited number of user view hours and then it gets back to ads unless you pay more)Youtube live will probably the second best. Go to Dashboard > Features and enable Live streaming and check it out. I also believe Youtube will have a 360p version of the stream besides a 720p one or whatever you choose. Or it may only stream live 360p but afterwards the video will be available in original resolution... i'm not sure.As for streaming software, you should check out Open Broadcaster Software:https://obsproject.com/You can create a "scene" and add to this scene several things, like video stream from camera, screen/ screen area capture over the video, a logo, boxes with text, stream from another camera in a thumbnail, and there are alsopluginswhich for example allow you to add a window over the video to show IRC chat, control obs from another pc etc etc

author: electrolux
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 03:07:11 pm
content: Where is this thread?

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 03:18:39 pm
content: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/eevblog-lab-upgrade-question/

author: madworm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 03:24:53 pm
content: Just to let you know Dave,YouTube live-streams have a high likelihood of being preemptively blocked in Germany (due to GEMA / music-rights shit). I can't watch Adafruit (US based) live-streams for example. Some live-streams from Japan work though.Using free proxies is not really an option, as these servers are usually quite overloaded and slow.Therefore I feel the need to suggest a different streaming service that doesn't suffer from DRM bullshit.

author: Carrington
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 05:40:28 pm
content: @ madworm:Quote from: madworm on May 04, 2014, 03:24:53 pmTry to use something like this (1 month only 3€), it works really well.:http://www.securitykiss.com- Bypass local network restrictions.- Virtual location....http://www.securitykiss.com/resources/whysecuritykiss/

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 05:52:34 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 04, 2014, 12:01:39 pmYes it would. Not only do I love having no cord on my camera (I have a battery that lasts all day), the camera is being constantly moved, and there is no PC within reach anyway. It would be a complete PITA.HDMI ? good luck finding a grabber card that can handle that !i would go with two logitechs that stream on their own. put one left of you , one right of you under 45 degree angle, pointing at the object under teardown. mount them from ceiling out of the way.when you do a teardow , nothing changes use your real camera to capture just like you do now. interested parties can log on during a live teardown event and switch between camera's left and right

author: madworm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 06:17:53 pm
content: @CarringtonI'd rather use the ashes of said organization of leeches to fertilize the land. Google would pay them for views on videos if they didn't demand 10x of what every other organization of that kind demands. It could be so simple, but we're reigned and ordered around by greedy bastards and their puppeteers.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 06:28:41 pm
content: You could either live stream fundamentals Friday with Q&A, or probably more reasonably, do a Q&A afterwards on each topic. I'll bet that you'd get a lot of takers that have questions they want to ask.I've toyed with the idea of just letting a webcam run in my shop so customers and potential customers could see what I'm up to. I decided against that. I really just don't want to be on camera 24/7....or even 8/5...or any other number. When I have something interesting, I just make a video, and if someone wants to have a web chat, we have a web chat. That's it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 06:29:22 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 04, 2014, 08:12:41 amDo as I do: Send e-mails with big attachements...I recently got 50M/50M fiber and every attachement is gone in 0.60 seconds.Seriously: besides uploading content you could do live/interactive shows. You might have to look into the technology involving pretty girls with webcams. The technology is called multicasting. You 'upload' one stream which then gets distributed to clients subscribed to that stream. I don't know if that works out of the box over internet though.

author: Bloch
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 06:29:33 pm
content: That about Dropcam ? likehttp://geekbeat.tv/dropcam/

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 09:02:27 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on May 04, 2014, 05:52:34 pmIf there is some sort of copy protection, then (console) gaming enthusiasts have found a workaround, use hdmi splitter one cable goes to HDCP supported TV/monitor, and other splitted stream goes to capture card. TV/monitor negotiates the copy protections and source is none the wiser. A very simple example using such workaround:. If there is a problem usually there are existing solutions.However I'm not sure if canon is using HDCP in their hdmi outputs, since it's hdmi compliant and a normal display can be used to view the hdmi video while recording, then there is no reason why it couldn't be recorded. The old saying goes something like "If it can be viewed it can also be recorded". There are some special boards that hobbyists have made firmware for it to remove HDCP on the fly, I think it was some simple product with FPGA and hdmi input and output, and jtag programming header inside.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 09:59:35 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on May 04, 2014, 05:52:34 pmI have a Hauppauge HD PVR 2 Gaming Edition with HDMI input.http://www.amazon.com/Hauppauge-Edition-Definition-Capture-Passthrough/dp/B008ZT8QKOIt does require a PC (or laptop) for capturing and the recording is lags by several seconds, but they have an HDMI no lag passthrough.Did some tests with justin.tv and wasn't really working when they had the streaming program available,with the StreamEez software. Have not tried lately so it might be better now.Now there is a Plus model with optical audio in for Mac support:http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr2plus-gaming.htmlThe capturing software for youtube is fine, and they mention they supporthttp://www.hauppauge.com/capture/Of course if your source has HDCP (PS3 for example) it wont record, but they come with a component cable (but converting from analog to digital) that allows you to capture it if your source has component output.Very cheap too.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 10:09:26 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on May 04, 2014, 05:52:34 pmhttp://www.blackmagicdesign.com/uk/products/intensityNot hard.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 11:17:56 pm
content: I think I would have a slow mirror for my website to the cloud host as a back up when the inevitable happens again.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 11:18:28 pm
content: Quote from: Bloch on May 04, 2014, 06:29:33 pmI've got one of those on order.Will see how it goes.Ok, as a general lab cam I think, but probably not the best choice for the live shows. Regular top-notch HD webcams with Ustream would be better for that I think.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 11:19:53 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on May 04, 2014, 11:17:56 pmI already have that. My entire web server is backed up daily to Amazon S3. That has nothing to do with my lab internet access though.

author: rexxar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 06:12:36 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 04, 2014, 11:19:53 pmI think he means serve a copy of the site from your lab?That's a bad idea. With the amount of traffic this site gets, I imagine 8M would get saturated very quickly.

author: Bloch
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 07:04:50 pm
content: I agree Dropcam is not for HD live shows.Btw why do I have to hand format the code the reply on this forum ? I am using Google Chrome Version 36.0.1964.4 on Windows 7 64 bitQuote from: EEVblog onYesterdayat 09:18:28 AMI've got one of those on order.Will see how it goes.Ok, as a general lab cam I think, but probably not the best choice for the live shows. Regular top-notch HD webcams with Ustream would be better for that I think.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 05:17:38 pm
content: Put a web cam in the dumpster room while you are at it.Also just have a general web cam showing what's going on in the lab no need for sound.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 01:14:24 pm
content: Webcams? Whaa? Is Daves place going to go like theBig Brotherhouse? The wingnut fringe that loiter around here that can't get enough Dave Dave Dave will have their prayers answered when they can finally watch him eat his breakfast and go to the potty.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 01:15:54 pm
content: Dunny is the other side, lot of cable for that camera.........

author: han
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 01:16:33 pm
content: Live Quiz

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 01:23:28 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on May 06, 2014, 05:17:38 pmI've ordered one of those DropCams for the general purpose thing. No fuss, just works, supposedly. Has the neat cloud recording thing too.Live shows and bench stuff need a better webcam.I thought about the dumpster room, but the problem is the location. Too far for WiFi, and cabling is all but impossible. Could be motion capture still framed 3G, but even that would have issues.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 01:27:00 pm
content: Quote from: rexxar on May 05, 2014, 06:12:36 pmYes, that's just unthinkable. I already pay hundreds per month for a dedicated server.

author: mimmus78
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 03:10:55 pm
content: Please do not set a eevblog live cam 24h/7d ... we already have volt/time-nuts here, there is no need for new illness !!!

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 05:27:45 am
content: I think there is going to be an element of "suck it and see" with the various options. Nothing beats empirical evidence. With 8Mb uplink, your PC should be more then capable of sending 2 streams anyway. HD encoding can be quite demanding on CPU though, so don't expect to be able to edit video and transcode on the same machine you live-stream on. Latency does vary a lot; on Justin / Twitch they recently changed their setup and latency went from a more-or-less realtime 15 seconds, to 45+ seconds. This makes interactivity a bit of a pain in the arse. I don't think the alternatives are much better though.A trend which I have noticed recently, is for streamers to hook the audio into a Mumble or other chat server. This allows trusted regulars to audio chat with the streamer. Now for game streamers they usually wear headphones which stops feedback, but this wouldn't really be practical with you. So long as the other people at the other end use push to talk and don't close the feedback loop, it shouldn't be an issue.The text-to-speech thing is interesting but only goes so far. Even given the latency to Aus, it is much more real-time than the text chatroom, and stops the streamer from having to check the screen every few seconds. May be worth a try? Obviously you only ask back people who know when to shut up (although of course it is easy to mute them) but it would be excellent to have a chat about some new gear or circuit design etc.Most of the streamers that I see, use Logitech cameras, the ones with Zeiss optics. They seem notably better than everything else in terms of colour and noise and aren't massively expensive.

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 05:42:23 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 04, 2014, 08:12:41 amThe amp hour live like this?(bad example video, they had problem with low upload speed or something)Automatically shows video who is speaking, plus you can still record sound separately and send them after the show.You could still have podcast with only sound separately, but also upload (or have it automatically recorded) video to youtube so people can watch at the same time.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 10:24:45 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on May 07, 2014, 01:40:38 pmIf Dave were to commit to potty cam, I'd actually bet and put money down on it eventually becoming his most popular channel. He could even charge for access to potty cam. Some people have made themselves wealthy over the interwebs doing that kind of thing. Just think of the possibilities!

author: electrolux
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 11:02:11 am
content: Quote from: Legit-Design on May 04, 2014, 03:18:39 pmThanks