Inkjet Printers - what a waste! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 08:51:52 pm
content: I don't know if many members here have pulled apart inkjet printers in an attempt to clean them - but this is the first time I've done it and - sh@t - what a waste of ink! There is nothing more depressing than seeing A LOT of the expensive ink just absorbed in the padding that printer manufacturers clearly install to suck up the 'cleaning heads' runoff.There has got to be a better solution than this mess:

author: bilko
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 08:55:32 pm
content: Ink is where the money is. They don't have any incentive to tackle this issue, wasting ink is good for their business

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 09:13:33 pm
content: Vote with your wallet and buy a laser printer. Ink jet was a good idea in the 90s when laser printers were way out of reach for cost but now it has reversed. Laser printers cost very little more than an inkjet and cost much less over their life span. You can thank greedy big corporations for artificially making the ink more expensive than almost any other substance on the planet, and then making the printers waste it like it is cheaper than beer.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 09:16:05 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on May 25, 2013, 09:13:33 pmYes, that's the plan. In the meantime, I'm just trying to clean this thing to make it usable for A3-size schematics (and nothing else).

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 09:21:12 pm
content: I just decommissioned a Canon MG5220 because it was dumping 90% of the contents of the ink cartridges in the 5 minute "cleaning cycles" it would run before it was prepared to print and barely 10% of the ink saw paper. I was fed up with getting about thirty pages of printing from an $80 set of ink cartridges. That's nearly $3 a page.I replaced it with a Brother HL-2270DW laser and I couldn't be happier. It starts up and is ready to print almost instantly and the print speed is much faster. Downsides are no color printing and no scanning (but I can still use the Canon for scanning).But for everyday fuss free printing nothing beats a laser printer.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 09:32:10 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on May 25, 2013, 09:21:12 pmYes, I used my old HP Laserjet III for a solid 10 years of fuss free printing. Time to return to laser printers.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 09:39:37 pm
content: Oh yea what a money pit (for the user) and what a gold mine (for the manufacturer).I got wise to it and refill my carts, and I get around the stupid cart chips by using a chip re-setter I got off of Ebay.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 09:45:43 pm
content: Quote from: marmad on May 25, 2013, 09:32:10 pmI think I can top that :-) My oldest one is a LJ5P bought in 1996 and it's still in use. Much better than a new inkjet every two years and paying a fortune for ink.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 09:49:49 pm
content: What a coincident, today just cleaned & replaced the teflon film at fuser assembly and rubbery feeder parts of my almost 10 yrs if I'm not mistaken an old el-cheapo HP 1022, and this is the 3rd fuser replacements.One or two hours job and with parts cost < $10, and its now works like new again.Agree, nothing beat laserjet, especially for daily print work horse, they're dirt cheap, very reliable and easy to fix. A3 sized laser jet's price might be a bit steep compared to A4 sized ones though.Here, took a shot just now the fuser & feeder parts cleaned & refurbished, they're just lying beside me when reading this ready to be assembled back.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 02:10:04 am
content: I had a DeskJet 600 once. What a crappy technology, every time it wasn't used for a couple of weeks the head would dry up.Got my hands on an elderly LaserJet 4M years ago and never looked back. This old beast is now about 20 years old and still prints like new. It even has a network interface.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 02:15:58 am
content: Quote from: IanB on May 25, 2013, 09:21:12 pmReplaced everything with a Brother MFC-9450CDN ~ 4 years ago (color print, scan, fax, copier, duplex, and network built-in). Still on the original toners (can be reset to get more life out of them, and refilled if the user is willing). Paid $550, including shipping.Cheap printing costs, even for color.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 04:56:12 am
content: the picture in the OP is an absolutely "clean" absorber pad, if you have faith you can believe in me that i had in one occasion where up to the point the wasted ink spilled out of the printer due to overloaded absorber (hacked printer version where i override/reset "ink absorber full" warning). inkjet or laser, you'll notice there will be wasted toner too. this is a necessary evil, where in my case mostly to save "printer head". in some printer brand its stated that the cartridge will provide excess ink volume to cope with this wasting issue. i've been in "cheap photo printing" for many years, the way clogged head to be recovered is cleaning by using the ink itself, of course unless you want to try fancier stuff like switchable ink and water cleaner tank in the system, which will waste even more ink if you study the system carefully. long story short... wasting ink is the best solution we currently have to save clogged ink head (which cost a printer if damaged).

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 05:31:00 am
content: Well of course. The point is that the ink practically costs its weight in gold, so a system that uses it as a cleanser is an insult to the buyer. I pay much less for cleansers. The fix, of course, is to stop selling it for such a ridiculous price, or for the buyer to switch to laser.Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 26, 2013, 04:56:12 amYes, but it costs less. I pick up dropped 0603 resistors with the vacuum cleaner, but when I dropped the $4 clock synthesizer chip I was trying to solder, you can bet I looked for it.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 05:45:22 am
content: It gets even WORSE !! :-) I've bought MFPs on a few occasions, mainly ONLY for the scanner part. The rest being a Bonus *IF*I ever needed a backup. PLUS, dedicated scanners are few and far between, and with a poor selection .. AND often DEARER !!BUT !! The last 3 I bought, WHEN the Printer part dropped their guts, you CAN'T use the scanner !! In fact, you CAN'T use thescanner IF you don't set the printer up ... AT ALL. (ie Load all the ink cartridges). Tell me THAT isn't a load of bullsh*t !!

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 06:02:19 am
content: maybe a geographical economic difference, as i dont see any economic way printing with laser in my area. CISS+3rd party ink+inkjet is alot lot cheap here. YMMV.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 06:54:12 am
content: I only buy printers where I can have them refilled, and this typically works out to about 30% of the wholesale price of the cartridge, or 1/4 of the retail price ( I can get the cartridges at close to wholesale if needed, but rarely do so) so I use this. In the 6 years of using the one company to do refills I have had 4 fail ( out of about 3000 refills) and they were fixed quick and at no cost, as some they do not have a printer to test them ( old ones that I am the only customer for) so the other parts can wear out other than the wipers and the toner. Drums last about 5-10 refills.They do a lot of ink as well for inkjets, and I buy second party inks from them as well ( never the OEM ones as they are typically 5 times the price) and often they are better print wise and life wise. Refills are cheap, and do work well, but I prefer a laser, inkjet is only for cheap colour prints that are not long lasting. If I want photo prints there are plenty of places to take the digital data to and have it done while you shop at the centre in question. They even will do A4 prints.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 07:52:24 am
content: for me inkjet printers are really usefull : get almost free of used (often defective) printers to salvage motors and gears ...about that : epson has an micropiezo inkjet technology that seems really cheaper (to use) than inkjet printers.I dont know if you can use ink transfert method for pcb with them.I have a color laser printer for 7 years, after 3 inkjet that didnt last more than a year ...

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 08:24:35 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 26, 2013, 04:56:12 amPrinter in the photo has barely been used - perhaps 3 sets of cartridges. Photo was taken after I'd cleaned - there was ink everywhere - and the reason I opened it was because the 'cleaning' of the heads by the printer (and wasting of more ink) was actually re-clogging the heads.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 08:36:39 am
content: A continuous ink system can be bought for most inkjet/bubblejet printers from aftermarket companies.They allow you to fill up huge bottles of ink that attach to the outside of the printer.It reduces the ink costs by an order of magnitudeDoesn't help save ink though. Infact you have to clean the waste take more often

author: Leon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 08:49:58 am
content: Saying laserprinters are the way to go isn't the whole story. If you print regularly there's nothing wrong with inkjet printers. The larger small business inkjet models like the HP 8600 are actually more cost efficient than a small laserprinter, heck there are even the huge models like fi. the Brother HL-S7000 that are more cost efficient than large laserprinters. It's only when you print just an occaisonal page that inkjet printers aren't appropriate.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 09:36:10 am
content: A CISS using bulk ink can be much cheaper than a laser - you can buya whole litrefor less than a cartridgecontaining only a few mL.Note that if you convert to a CISS thespittoonwill need to be changed for a "waste ink bottle" instead.I've often found that for text printing, the black ink as it comes from the bulk bottle is already blacker than necessary --- dilute it 1:10 and the price goes down even further.This is one of the areas where I've wished there would be some Chinese manufacturer producing a cheap, easily refillable inkjet. Either that or more printer firmware hacks (toner cartridges are not immune to being chipped for wasting too.)

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 09:45:16 am
content: Quote from: amyk on May 26, 2013, 09:36:10 amLike this ? Epson already made cheap ink jet printer for few years that has these 4 big ink tanks (the big black box at the right) that are easily refillable.*

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 09:53:36 am
content: I've heard loads of stories about inkjet printers wasting ink.Can't say I've ever seen it myself. My Canon iP4000 which I bought in 2005 is still going well and only gets used occasionally. I'm pretty sure it doesn't waste much ink. I only buy the genuine Canon cartridges as I've had quality issues with 3rd party ones. As I don't use it much, the cost isn't significant.My preference for printing is my LaserJet 4M Plus, which I got second hand for about £25 in 2006. Most of the time, it works nicely.I occasionally ponder colour laser printers but I'm still not sure about their photo printing capabilities.I do also have an Oki Microline 280 from the 1990s. That is still on its original ink ribbon many years later. Unfortunately the printer does have a fault which I have been unable to diagnose though.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 10:02:38 am
content: Quote from: steve30Unless it is a VERY expensive one, it'll never be close to inkjets, for most people. I have a decent Samsung, and even with the best"photo papers",, it's "OK" to sometimes "quite OK". IF I need Inkjet quality, I zip down to OfficeWorks (and take my own paper) !!

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 10:10:06 am
content: samsung lasers are not known for their good quality printing, even worse for photo printing.the printer is cheap, but the cartridges are expensives and quality is low-middle.you cannot make brillant photos with a laser as the ink is mat. using photo paper in an laser printer is something strange for the result !

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 10:15:53 am
content: Quote from: steve30 on May 26, 2013, 09:53:36 amTrust me - it does - even if you don't 'see' it. Of course, it wastes less if it's designed well-enough that the heads don't require much cleaning. But I think if you open it up, you'll be surprised by what you see.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 10:20:33 am
content: Quote from: marmad on May 26, 2013, 08:24:35 amsometime its not clogged, but due to back syphoon which develop air pocket or bubble inside the nozzles, even deep cleaning sometime wont help, the bubble will stick. the effective cure (but not 100%) for this is leaving the printer overnight, or shaking the head, i will sometime make a dummy print to let the head shaking.@Psi: the ink consumption could not be improved (only undetectably slightly maybe), but the maintenance of cartridge changing and minimizing introduction of air bubble into the system could be greatly improved, apart from price/liter you mentioned. less air bubble = less cleaning aka wasting ink required hence could save some ink.laser is totally "out of league" when we are talking photo printing (at least in quality/price unit).for further info i'll be happy to give "consultation at a price" since this is what i did "semi professionally" in my life. i have 3 printer system (laser + 2 inkjet) laser i bought specifically for pcb toner transfer only. tried the samsung CLP-310 to print photo was close to a total failure "by the standard". one inkjet for normal doc, one specifically tuned for photo printing. btw i gave up Canon inkjet (home use) due to their cartridge (built-in head) burnt out easily so i changed to Brother inkjet for doc printing.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 10:42:42 am
content: I have a nice boat anchor in my office at work, a Tektronix Phaser 340 colour wax transfer printer. In perfect working order, just not used as the wax blocks are so expensive, along with the maintenance tray ( supposed to last for 10000 pages, but easy enough to "fix" so you can do 30 000 plus pages out of it with no problem) and the tiny fact that there you can see the waste wax in the tray, as blocks of melted wax. When turned on it goes through a cleaning cycle that uses a half block of wax ( about $100 of each of 4 blocks) and it will do a clean cycle every 24 hours if powered on and in standby ( standby in this unit means it turns off the display, but still has the drum heated to 80C, so uses around 200VA with occasional 1000VA warming cycles) and will dump around a half cup of brown wax a week, basically running costs are $500 per month, irrespective of the number of prints you do.I used to print a lot of pages on it as white or colour on black, getting a near 100% black coverage, as the black wax was a non cost item, it came in the packs of colour sticks as a bonus. It was very good though at doing registration, you had no bleeding of edges at least in the beginning, with time though and heat the pages would bleed through the page and smear.Never tried PCB printing with it, as every page came out with a thin coat of silicone release oil on it from the drum, which made glueing the prints a bit of a pain. At present I have plenty of black for it though, about 20 sticks.Colour though is low, ran out a while ago.

author: Strada916
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 11:07:26 am
content: when you can buy a cheap ink jet for $50 and the replacement ink is $70 no point in keeping the printer. ditch and buy a new printer as it is cheaper.I tossed my last Epson Stylus printer years ago as I do not print in colour. 99% of my print outs are black on white. So I purchased a second hand HP 5L about 7 years ago. and have never replaced the toner or drum. When it finally does break down I will replace it with another laser printer.My colour printing is done at my local Harvey Norman Store at about 9c a print. (4x6 standard photo size)

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 11:18:39 am
content: Quote from: marmad on May 26, 2013, 10:15:53 amI don't doubt that its wasteful. But if it is, its not obvious like some models seem to be.I'm curious to take it apart now

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 02:00:40 pm
content: I have 5 or 6 inkjets sitting in my shed waiting to be torn down for parts salvage. When I see a multi function inkjet on Trade Me (our local NZ auction site) for a buck and nobody wants it, seems silly to leave it there.Most of the time they actually work fine, more often than not I get the USB and power cables too (not that I need any more of those), and more than once a full paper tray.I've also bought several laser printers for a dollar or two over the years, when I run out of toner I just buy another printer from trademe for a buck.It's a disposable world :-/

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 03:45:24 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on May 26, 2013, 10:42:42 amI know the newer models :-( Either you leave them switched-on and get a nice bill for the power usage or you switch them off and pay a fortune for the wax thrown away at each startup. The only usage for those printers is to take them apart :-)

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 03:58:17 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on May 26, 2013, 09:45:16 amEpson screwed customers much to often :-( Please compare the price of a 10-20ml ink cartridge and 1l of ink for a printing shop/house! That's why a lot of inkjet vendors add a custom ink-cartridge-chip :-(

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 04:06:43 pm
content: Quote from: Leon on May 26, 2013, 08:49:58 amIt's the other way around! With a laserprinter you got around 2-3 ct/page and with an inkjet it's >10-15 ct/page. If you print occasionally the inkjet is cheaper because the initial cost is lower than for a laser printer. If you print a lot the laser printer becomes cheaper due to the lower page price. You have to consider the TCO.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 04:13:47 pm
content: Quote from: Strada916 on May 26, 2013, 11:07:26 amThe catridge is toner and drum together. You can buy refurbished ones very inexpensive. The old laserprinters got very robust mechanics, so keep them using as long as they will do the job. Maybe one has to replace some rollers over the years but that's not expensive also.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 05:21:37 pm
content: Quote from: madires on May 26, 2013, 03:58:17 pmI thought I was addressing your quest above at red bold text above ? It comes originally from factory like that with that 4 tanks attached and refillable.You still can buy that 1 dollar per liter ink instead of original Epson ink, and just pour that cheap ink in that tanks if you want, its no brainer. No more custom chip, or modding needed.Reposting the picture just in case you missed the detail.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 06:07:11 pm
content: Quote from: madires on May 26, 2013, 03:45:24 pmI did take the one apart, it had a paper jam and the DFU turned it off with the sheet wrapped on the drum......... It cooled and became an integral part, and during turn on the drum has to be able to rotate to heat up. Very interesting printer, 68040 processor and almost a complete Mac inside, complete with the Adobe ROM module and the Tek ROM module. Also had 64M of RAM. Add on card was the ethernet card, but the board came with a SCSI interface so you could connect an add on ( very expensive) 1G SCSI drive with stored graphic images.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 06:20:05 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on May 26, 2013, 05:21:37 pmNever seen any marketed over here. And I would never assume such a dramatic change from Epson. Some local vendors copying the ink catridges got sued by the inkjet vendors several times. Also for chip reset tools. So I'm a little bit sceptic :-)

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 06:28:48 pm
content: Quote from: madires on May 26, 2013, 06:20:05 pmAhh.. just noticed you're from Germany, no wonder, these printer with refillable tanks is only marketed on less developed orpoor"less rich"countries , Germany definitely is not one of these right ?Try visit Epson Czech Republic web page for example ->http://www.epson.cz/instead of Epson German web which doesn't carry this product. Apparently Epson thinks you Germans are too rich to use this kind of printer.You will be greeted at the front page with this kind of "refillable" ink jet printer, legally & officially supported by Epson.Edit :Try this page & watch the short video there, no need to understand the Czech language, it should be clear by now ->http://www.epson.cz/cz/cs/viewcon/corporatesite/cms/index/10289/, no more chip/cartridge resetting or modding or the messy ink injections at the cartridge or installing/routing those pesky ink pipes with those ugly ink bottles standing beside the printer.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 06:52:36 pm
content: I wonder how they are going to make a profit out of this. BravoV, can you find and post some pricing for the printer(s) and the original ink?Ok, Black ink 140ml, about 10K pages: € 14Printers starting around € 220, I can see what they are doing there

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 07:09:31 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on May 26, 2013, 06:28:48 pmIt's more like Epson can rip-off Germans easier :-) The German webpage explains that you can save money by using Epsons patented separated catridges (a dedicated catridge for each color, instead of a single catridge for all colors together). Go figure!QuoteVery nice! Epson screwed us again :-(

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 07:18:21 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on May 26, 2013, 06:52:36 pmNo sure about making money though, but looking at the popularity now since it was created 2 or 3 years ago, I bet they are, otherwise they will terminate it.Original Epson ink locally here is about $6.5/bottle for BCMY type (4 ink colors) printer, while for BCMYLcLm (6 ink colors) printer like L800 ->http://www.epson.eu/ix/en/viewcon/corporatesite/products/mainunits/overview/11398is about $12 per bottle.Imo, pretty cheap I would say and since this printer was launched, here this printer hit those 3rd parties refillable ink/cartridge modding or cheap ink business really hard, and I believe its eating a big chunk out of these 3rd party ink refill market.I read it somewhere while ago that this special breed ink jet printer originally was developed by Epson at one of the Asian country where their local gov supports and legalizes those refillable ink business, and it was a huge business that made Epson scratching their head real hard. Then they decided to become very aggressive by specially re-designed this new type of refillable printer, and also I believe I've read somewhere (don't quote on me though) that the print head is specially designed + the new ink formula so it won't clogged easily compared to other ordinary Epson inkjet with 3rd party ink, or the other "rich man" Epson ink-jet that is designed will suck your money by deliberately kill the print head by clogging it once it reached certain age/operational life.Edit :Epson EU page with English video too on L800 ->http://www.epson.eu/ix/en/viewcon/corporatesite/cms/index/10289/#

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 07:34:32 pm
content: hmm those printers are expensive but the ink is dirt cheap 10 bucks here,edit: wondering on their life span. if they just die like my canon after 5 years of sitting and 2 spilled sets of catridge then its useless i hate when something wastes consumables by design and the software or components make sure it will die in a set time

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 07:52:25 pm
content: QuoteThe average set of toner cartridges for a COLOR laser printer is usually very close to the price of a new printer :-( And they tend to be not-very-good at printing photos.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2013, 02:32:57 am
content: FWIW, Brother inkjet cartridges (at least the older ones, LC57 etc, don't know about these days) are easily refillable, a couple of minutes the first time to split the cartridge shell in half, poke a couple holes in the internal plastic "membrane" (1 fill, 1 air), fill with ink from your bulk bottle, clean and tape (use electrical tape, sellotape's adhesive tends to dissolve by the ink) over the holes, put the shell back together and job done.There are no chips or anything, it's just a dumb ink receptacle.

author: justanothercanuck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2013, 06:07:04 am
content: Just an aside, I've been told by a few printer techs, including those who worked at Canon, that their printers firmware is rigged so that the printers break down and generate service calls. I don't actually know how true that is, but HPLJ 3/4/4XXX will run themselves into the ground before they'll throw an error. Which is more than I can also say about Ricoh printers, who will eat entire toner bottles and constantly jam paper.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2013, 12:30:33 pm
content: I bought a used HP LaserJet 4000 like 3-4 years ago. For around €50. And the toner with which I bought it hasn't yet run out. The printer is clunky being something like 40x40x30 cm (LxWxH) and >20kg of weight, but virtually indestructible, and it never jams (unless you buy very cheap 3rd party feed rollers in which case paper will jam).I think It's better to buy a second-hand professional grade machine, rather than consumer grade shit which is engineered to break after a set period of time.Never ever an inkjet printer again.