Ideas wanted on lab layout - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: jdak907
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 06:31:59 pm
content: Hi everyone. This is my first post on EEVblog.I could use some ideas or advice from everyone on lab layout and bench heights. The lab is inside a shipping container. Approximately 7' wide by 19' (2.1 x 5.8m) long on the inside. There is a counter top which is mounted at 42" high (1m) for standing height at the back of the lab. There is a slide out keyboard mount underneath so I can use the LCD TV with a computer if I want. Eventually I might get a microscope and 4K TV and a hot air re-work station for working on SMD projects in this area. This will probably be my main work area, soldering/de-soldering, disassembly and assembling items, etc. I primarily work on guitar tube amplifiers and some solid state musical electronics equipment. I also do prototyping, RF and ham radio stuff. I'm planning on building an exhaust fan/fume extractor hood system which I will make a permanent penetration through the exterior wall. I am currently installing carpet on the walls and need to figure out where I want everything before making permanent attachments and holes in the walls. The thing I am not sure about is if I want to keep this as a stand up bench as my primary area or if I should lower it. The other areas where I have a table height workbench and computer desk I feel pretty comfortable with their location, but could always re-arrange to make the whole space work better.Do any of you have stand up benches in your labs? What do you like most about your setup and do you have any regrets or wishes? It may be possible for me to use another bench along the side of the lab as a sit down area but it won't be as deep of a work surface. Check out the sketch and pictures I've attached. Any thoughts, suggestions and ideas are all welcome and appreciated! (check out the attachments)Thank you,Jeff

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 07:45:57 pm
content: You can use a standing workspace as a sitting workspace simply by buying a tall stool/chair, which lets you choose to sit or stand as you please. Sitting desks are only sitting desks.It's easier to add storage shelves under a taller surface.

author: jdak907
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 07:50:37 pm
content: Good points! I do like having a taller space below for storing amps and speakers that I am working on.Thanks,Jeff

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 09:33:40 pm
content: Quote from: jdak907 on November 07, 2017, 06:31:59 pmI have stand up benches in my production area. I have a sit down bench in the "lab" area. It is a bit taller than usual to accommodate a stereo zoom microscope at optimum height.Jon

author: nes999
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 10:45:12 pm
content: I see that you are from Alaska. Have you worked in a shipping container before? They get extremely loud, depending on the season and location hot/cold, and they always seem humid when I have worked inside them.I like having standing desks but I can stand all day and not feel it, however sitting for even a short period of time messes with my back. Make sure you design to fit your needs. I like benches on the high side, so a bench that I like might not fit you, and vise versa.Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

author: jdak907
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 10:55:08 pm
content: I've worked in them on construction sites with no insulation. This one I have furred out on the inside with R-19 fiberglass batts, 6 mil vapor barrier, 3/8" OSB interior walls with thin indoor/outdoor carpet for finish. I chose the carpet only because it was the cheapest finished look at $4.75/sq yd. Velcro also sticks really well to it and it has a slight sound dampening! The heater is sealed combustion so no air exchange in the unit from that. I will have a fresh air intake and an exhaust (fume extractor) installed soon. Typically it's very dry most of the year. Right now it's pretty comfortable in there at 6 above 0. Though I have to fix some insulation in the floor as I have a cold spot at the very end under the big bench.I'm starting to use standing desks more at work, and trying out the one in my lab - it seems to be alright. This one at 42" allows me to put my arms at a 90 degree bend.Thanks for the input!Jeff

author: jdak907
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 10:57:13 pm
content: All great ideas! I will have to keep in mind arm clearance for working on mechanical things and like you said instrumentation shelf height.Thanks,Jeff

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 11:12:41 pm
content: Watch out your OSB doesn't get wet from condensation on its back. Probably not a problem if its dry and you have adequate ventilation from outdoors.

author: jdak907
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 11:50:53 pm
content: Good point. Definitely have to get the ventilation going in there soon! There's not much moisture being created in here other than breathing and relative humidity, but it's always possible to create condensation. I should put a hygrometer in there just out of curiosity. I've been thinking of using a Panasonic fan that can run at a low speed for general occupancy and have a boost switch when I am making smoke.Jeff

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 12:43:32 am
content: Be careful about back venting combustion appliances. Are you sure your heater is a completely closed system (open to the outside but not the inside)Are there ventilation holes? Frankly, I've heard enough stories about people suffocating in shipping containers to be concerned.That said, lots of people put lots of work into it and turn shipping containers into homes or offices and some of them are very nice and even warm and cozy.

author: jdak907
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 05:44:32 am
content: Thanks Cdev. Yes it's sealed combustion. They're a slick little heater!https://www.toyotomiusa.com/factoryOutletStore/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=204I've also got a CO detector in here too. It's actually turning out pretty nice, my wife jokes about me putting a bed out here to sleep in! When I got the container it was a rusty piece of junk with 2" angle iron shelving welded to full length of the interior and dents everywhere. It's been a lot of work! There aren't any ventilation holes yet - right now fresh air comes in through the door. When I settle on locations for benches and workstations I'll cut in a fresh air vent and an exhaust fan to keep air exchanged.https://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-FV-GKF32S1-Passive-Inlet-Vent/dp/B003SXWSXIhttps://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MXVWQ5K/ref=sspa_dk_detail_5?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B01MXVWQ5K&pd_rd_wg=rvntC&pd_rd_r=MD54KYN1W35Y39486BEV&pd_rd_w=4AFEIJeff

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 05:58:50 am
content: For a seated bench use standard table height, ~30" or 750mm.It's fine for most work even some standing with bigger componentry.Kitchen bench height which is ~36" or 900 is ok for standing use although a little low for some stuff.The chair/stool you intend to use will dictate what you can work with but personally I'd rather stay at standard heights to be able to get nice chairs that suit you.I've got a mashed together setup in a L shape with the longer part of the L being my PC workstation and 810mm high whereas my soldering and testbench is standard desk/table height.A nice swivel roller chair finishes the job.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 07:19:37 am
content: Don't forget about storage space in a lab.Overtime electronics labs accumulate a lot ofjunkspare partsso you want a good deal of shelving with boxes to keep the stuff in some reasonably orderly fashion. Not all of the storage needs to be easily accessible as there are always some rarely used things that are worth keeping around. For that storing things under tables or on shelves just below the ceiling works well as they use up space that would otherwise be empty.Having some shelving space behind the workbench can also be useful to keep test equipment and tools on it so that they don't take up the workbench area.Lighting can also make a big difference in the usability of a lab. Having more than 1 light source next to your workbench area helps keep things well lit on the bench while not making the whole room really bright and it keeps away shadows from happening. That can be useful when repairing tightly packed gear so that you don't need to move or rotate the heavy piece of equipment around to get the light in to where you are working on.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 08:24:19 am
content: A magnetic white board to quickly scribble down stuff and hang printed information sheets or schematics on might also be worth consideration particularly if bench space is limited.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 03:23:02 pm
content: Panasonic makes a small heat recovery ventilator that I am pretty sure has a form factor similar to a bathroom fan. Fantech has a small one too but its more like their full size HRVs, just smaller (so has four four inch circular vent lines, two for indoors, two for outdoors.)You might want to look into HRVs as they balance the ventilation and moderates temps of inwards coming air with outwards going air. That saves energy enough to allow you to let a fan run more, year round.A shipping container seems unlike most other construction in that its basically almost airtight. So - just like in an equipment case or whatever, you will need two vents one for intake and one for exhaust.I don't know the climate there. In some parts of the world you likely don't need an HRV, just two identical fans and filters to keep bugs and the largest airborne debris from getting in.Site the exhaust register behind your soldering bench and it will help improve you IAQ by exhausting your solder smoke outdoors.Both vents should be shaded and screened so bugs (bees and hornets especially) and birds cant get in and build nests there. The placement of the intake vent should be where its fan will be able to gather the freshest air and the exhaust should be either several feet away from it or if that's not possible, both should be at least ~300 cm apart and have their openings angled both sidewards and downward (to keep rain out) - at 45 degree angles, directed in opposite directions. If you live in a place that has a dominant wind direction year round, ideally the intake should be on the upwind side.An HRV is a really nice thing to have for any space you spend a lot of time. They by far the best fume extractor available, the only one that actually extracts without sucking in dirty make up air through the buildings walls, they are helpful at saving energy and they prevent the buildup of humidity, fumes, any kind of unpleasant odors, etc. in any space.In the case of buildings that make extensive use of composites (like OSB) which contain a lot of binders they are also good for continuously exhausting the formaldehyde, etc. given off by it which otherwise can be quite irritating and also its a known carcinogen.. Because they moderate the cold or warm outside air they can be left on most or even all of the time or put on a timer so they run during the hours a space is occupied, which is the most convenient way to do it.

author: jdak907
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 05:44:04 pm
content: Cdev, you are a wealth of knowledge! You're talking my language here. I've been in the mechanical field for some time. I thought about using an HRV but kind of pushed it to the side - however I might consider it again. Last time I checked our code was .35 air changes per hour. We rely on HRV systems here in Fairbanks as we are building extremely tight buildings and have a outdoor design temperature of somewhere around -70°F. Some folks in the area have built to 0.05 ACH50 (air leakage)!! I even considered building my own HRV core, but probably too much work. I'll look at the Panasonic HRV idea!I didn't even really think of what the OSB contained, however now looking it up it was a "green" product. I vaguely remember seeing some stamp on it that gave me the warm fuzzies. It's a "no added urea-formaldehyde resin" environmentally friendly product. I think they use soy resin or something. Good thing the LEED stuff have really taken off, we're all better off with the new regs on building products.Thanks again for the tips, really great info here!Jeff

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 06:59:03 pm
content: I don't know how Fairbanks is but if you expect extended periods of below-zero (degrees centigrade) weather you should take care two things dont happen.. there is a drain line, you dont want to have freeze up, and also you may want to get some expert opinions as to efficiency - the panasonic HRV does not seem to me to be a extended-cold weather unit. The Fantechs are, as Fantech is a Canadian subsidiary of I think a Swedish company.Also, some HRVs can recirculate air for an adjustable portion of the time to prevent the core from icing up solid. They will either have five ducts or the HRV unit itself will switch them or it will have a vent on it which means it will take air in from the closet its in unless you add a duct. You probably dont need the recirculation featureif you live right near the coast, even in AK.Do buckets of water left outside freeze rock solid there? If so then you likely would need it, if not, no.The small one that they have is basically a mini-HRV. its much smaller than the full sized units and cheaper too. If you get one for your home unless your installation location requires it (a basement, basically) I would not get the vertical (ducts on top) design, I would get the straight through design, because its one less bend that the ducting has to make. Also look on 'inspectopedia" to see the problems (holes) people have had with some kinds of flex ducting and avoid those kinds. I would strongly advise to try to avoid flex-ducting as much as possible because you should put some extra effort into keeping the inside of the HRV clean.Make sure you get one with an aluminum core and not some other material.As far as insulating the outside of the ducting inside your house on the outward facing side (which I kept short) Ive used a different insulating material made of mylar, (not the insulated flexi duct-)I forget its name but its basically a mylar bubble wrap - covering the outside of the short metal ducts. (Ive also used this between studs in a number of places to improve the insulation around the perimeter of my basement, its perfect for that. just cut to size and press it in. It does make a noticeable difference. Really need to get a thermal imager this winter so I can get all of this stuff really tight!)But to return to HRV, a key issue for me is keeping it simple, especially ease of cleaning the ducts regularly, which I do myself on a schedule. (every 4 months)The smoother your ducts are the easier they are to clean. Also make sure the registers you get are adjustable. For maximum airflow just leave them wide open but sometimes you want to have more airflow in some areas than others.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 07:05:14 pm
content: Don't trust manufacturers to actually make products healthy, or for the labels to reflect it. It's a scam.Sometimes the things they do make products a lot unhealthier in order to get a tenth of a point improvement. They did that to many air conditioners, turning their drip pans into nightmares of really toxic caramel colored (as in Ochratoxin A look it up) mold. It's super bad for you. So now you have to drill a hole in them.You have to do the research yourself.Quote from: jdak907 on November 08, 2017, 05:44:04 pm

author: W8LV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 01:53:03 am
content: I use the plastic, fold up tables.The five foot ones work best.The six foot ones appear (to me) to be a bit weaker in the centre. You will need to be careful of heat around them. You can plop some thin plywood cutouts over the top.if you want: two per table. And never underestimate the value of some second hand old wooden cutting boards. Set up your ground pads right on the plastic, especially the main work area. You can make an "L" out of two tables, or better yet, a "U" out of the tables, three in that case. Or two tables, one behind the other. One behind the other may sound goofy, but you'll be surprised to find how quickly test equipment will swallow up your primary work space. And get in your way. And get too close to the soldering iron. Set plastic milk crates on top of the tables, and set the equipment on the top of milk crates, and the open ends of the milk crates facing towards you. Now the displays are at eye level, and the KNOBS are just right. And you have The test leads at The ready, but can shove them the Hell out of your way, as the test leads go there, and your handheld DMM.The crates also give you a convienant place to attach clamp lights. Wal-Mart has LED clamp on, very light weight and very low power consumption goose neck lights. Get at least four. Or two per crate. Now, you can see. There's nothing worse than shadows when you are trying to read a schematic. Or work. Or do anything. As the crates are slightly raised, when you spill your tea cup (and you will) the liquid mess gets on the table but the slightly raised bottom of the plastic milk crate protects the equipment. And the test leads... easy to clean, but doesn't destroy equipment. The "holes" in the milkcrates are excellent attachment points. Bend a little wire into a holder shape. Hang a cloth there. You will be happy when you spill your tea cup all over your bench when you have this towel IMMEDIATELY READY for a spill. Yea, I know you're not supposed to drink tea at your work bench. But we all do it. Or your cell phone that you stashed there. You need a bench radio. Or just some cheap assed computer speakers, to plug into "whatever ". You can also plug in a Bluetooth transmitter thingie here. And then use your phone for music. Without wires. And there's your speakerphone. And camera. Duo never worked better when you and your Buddy compare work. And just like having the right things at eye level, even cheap assed speakers sound much better, because now they are at your ear level. Across the back of the table, or right on TOP of the crates, cheap power strips from Harbour Freight (or Princess Auto in Canada) Glue Velcro to the place you want to attach the power strips, and to the bottom of the power strips, and they won't slide around. Or fall off the bench, pulling your cords, and finally your equipment to the floor. Plan for ONE MAIN MASTER SWITCH to shut down when you are done. So the iron(s) are REALLY turned off. And those power supplies.You can even zip tie crates together, with heavy zip ties, to make one gigantic milk crate assembly. They're less prone to slipping around that way. And you can break them down and reconfigure as needed. Zip ties are strong and cheap!Spend MORE for a COMFORTABLE Rolling Chair than you do for the bench area.Fans/Smokeaters that are placed in front of you in the back, even a muffin fan or two, should pull smoke AWAY from you as a rule.Make a ring holder of some sort. On the wall, or whatever. Something I have never heard anyone do, but I do, besides wearing safety glasses, is WEAR A MASK when looking at TINY PARTS, Especially with short focal lengths optical devices. I'm surprised quite frankly that no one has ever considered that SMD parts are SO SMALL, that not only can you lose them on the floor where it's impossible to find them, they are ALSO an INHALATION HAZARD. The Ring holder? (I almost forgot). It's for your....Ring. Or Rings. You remove it BEFORE you start working, and it will be RIGHT THERE WHERE YOU LEFT IT when you are DONE working.Hang a SIGN over your test area. What if you were zapped and a family member found you? And touched you? I know this sounds like Safety Man Overkill (pardon the pun) but the SIGN should have location of BREAKER BOX on it if it's not right there. And a BRIGHT SIGN AT THE BREAKER BOX informing any rescuer WHICH BREAKER is THE BREAKER that they should pull on an emergency.Speaking of that, I'm not so sure if carpet is a good idea on the walls. Do you use solvent or BraKleen to clean off flux? Volatile fumes Right next to carpet. On the wall. And near potential IGNITION SOURCES. NOT A GOOD IDEA. Just saying...A clear plastic Cook Book Holder set sideways with your DMM or laptop can protect their delicate faces from solder. Or the wrath of your solder gun. Or rework heat. A clear plastic Cook Book Holder is cheap, and cheap to replace if it gets the "heat test". Fluke and Dell laptop displays? Not so much.Get a Lazy Susan. Put your Panavise on it. Stick a little cloth under one edge of the Lazy Susan, at the ten o'clock or two o'clock position. Depending on which hand you use. Or if it's on the end of a table. Now you can turn your work around at will, for inspection, or soldering. But the cloth acts like a "brake", so your work doesnt suddenly move when you touch the iron to it. Or blow hot air on it. You can fold up or vary the cloth "brake." Or remove it completely.A dish towel or two on the Lazy Susan will protect a screen if you have to place it face down. Don't use a pillow. Cheap urethrane foam REALLY burns. If you don't think so, exacto knife off a strip of it sometime, and light it outside on the sidewalk. Youll be surprised at how fast and furious it does so.You want a "stand" type magnifier in front of the Lazy Susan. Don't get a "clamp on" type. You really can't "clamp on" to a plastic table... the ONLY shortcoming I have found with plastic fold up tables, by the way is this.Your UPS goes under the bench. On a milk crate. AWAY from your feet, but where you can reach down and hit the switch.Think when you conjure up your bench area, how to design it so it can be UNcounjoured...This is where folding tables are the Bees Knees: scopes and the like today are LIGHT. You don't need the Massive, weight bearing benches of the vacuum tube past. They are plenty. Did I mention that they fold up?Can you MOVE all of this stuff easily when you MOVE?My Rule of Thumb is that if it can all fold up and fit in the back of a Prius, then I'm all set.Since I have a Prius.In all Endeavours, Harbor Freight, Wal-Mart, (and Princess Auto and Zellers) have everything you need.I hope that these suggestions help.73 and All the Best!DE W8LV Bill(And Sometimes, W8LV/VE3)73 and All the Best! DE W8LV Bill

author: W8LV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 02:11:01 am
content: I forgot: The Laundry Basket Parts Storage System...Buy two identical plastic laundry baskets. The rectangular kind. Set one inside the other: Now you have a "double" laundry basket.Put parts in ziplock bags. Put the parts into the top basket.Not CMOS stuff, of course. But everything else.Now, say you need a part. Separate the pair of the laundry baskets. Sort until you see what you need. Set that aside, but filling the SECOND laundry basket with everything else as you go.Now, put the two baskets back together. Done!The "Double Basket" then goes under one of the plastic fold up tables where you got it from.73 and All the Best!DE W8LV Bill73 and All the Best! DE W8LV Bill