Nichicon audio capacitors - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2017, 10:24:43 pm
content: Now not only Panasonic does it, but Nichicon, too:http://nichicon-us.com/english/products/pdfs/e-ufg.pdf"suited for high grade audio equipment", "Rich sound in the bass register and clearer high end"Yeah, sureHas anyone actually measured the difference with a non-audio capacitor, or conducted a double-blind, orABXhearing test?

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2017, 10:28:04 pm
content: And a "product training" at Digikey for it:https://dkc1.digikey.com/DE/de/TOD/Nichicon/audio-capacitors/audio-capacitors.html

author: strangersound
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2017, 10:51:16 pm
content: Being an audio engineering/audiophile type, I never heard any claim that better quality capacitors "sound better". I can't imagine if the values are the same, anybody could tell a difference. I always thought the primary reason for good caps was reduced chance of failure and longer life. I never heard any sound quality claim until now.QuoteThat does sound like bullshit, but stranger phenomena happens all the time in electrical circuits. I'd be curious to see some results of a double blind study or similar, like you noted. Considering that caps are the primary method of filtering in a circuit, maybe better caps do a better job...better output transformers make a difference, a tube is definitely different sounding from a silicon transistor, and just the layout and placement of components can change the behavior of a circuit. There's so many variables, I can at least say they probably figured they were at least safe to make the claim, since it's so into minutiae that who can tell without a research project's worth of study.I know their marketing is bullshit, I need some data to form any conclusion.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2017, 10:51:48 pm
content: As usual, there's a grain of truth in the audio capacitor thing but it applies to ceramic capacitors which can be piezoelectric and vary non-linear. Electrolytic capacitors are essentially transparent to audio, when used properly. For AC coupling applications, just choose one with an ESR much lower than the load's resistance and a high enough value to give a cut-off way below 20Hz.All the hype is just marketing wank and digikey want to sell them, so they just parrot the same bollocks from the manufacturers.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2017, 11:16:09 pm
content: SighApparently you haven't heard of Elna's claims.Here's ELNA SILMIC II :https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/rfs-series/3641?mpart=RFS-25V101MH4#5&vendor=604RFS SeriesAudio Grade SILMIC Series, Radial Leaded Aluminum Electrolytic CapacitorsThe RFS series was developed specifically for audio applications.ELNA developed raw material for the separate paper which use a silk fibers.Therefore, this capacitor can give you high grade sound for your audio design.FeaturesRelieves the music's vibration energyDecreases the peak feeling sound at high compass and rough quality sound at middle compassIncreases massive sound at low compass

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2017, 11:27:11 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on July 08, 2017, 11:16:09 pmSo it is crap for higher frequencies and will act as a low-pass filter

author: WastelandTek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2017, 11:33:04 pm
content: I used some when I recapped my guitar amp, they had really pretty shiny metalized wraps and didn't really cost much more...lolAlso available in more nonpolar/bipolar values, which is nice

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 12:14:01 am
content: My question is if large traditional main stream capacitor manufactures start spouting this crap does it mean they have lost their souls? Could the intended user base be really profitable enough to stain their traditional and tremendously larger user base? Will these new 'audio caps' have datasheets showing their superiority in audio applications over their other mainstream quality products?

author: f5r5e5d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 12:29:39 am
content: I measured a early Sony SACD player with Nichicon Gold Muse DC blocking caps in the R,L ch and "lessor" Nichcon in the center, suround ch - the Gold caps had more, higher distortion components visible on the LF slope

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 12:38:57 am
content: Quote from: mariush on July 08, 2017, 11:16:09 pmMarketing BS for the next generation of cashed up audiophools, to 'relieve' (and enhance) credit card 'vibration energy'One can guess who bought out those capacitor manufacturers, the usual 'investor' trash no doubtget ready for price rises on standard/average quality caps.. in sexy housings and'love you long time'claims

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 03:15:30 am
content: Quote from: retrolefty on July 09, 2017, 12:14:01 amhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Gate_(capacitor)There used to be a page on Rubycon's site with all the marketing wank, but I can't find it at the moment...

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 03:59:28 am
content: Most poor audio quality comes down to engineers not taking into consideration the ESR and capacitance value of the caps, not at 0v, but at the operating voltage and maximum temperature they will be operating at. In the case of input DC filtering, the second problem occasionally is the caps leakage current at the operating voltage and temperature. On occasion, some of these so called Audio Grade caps may have a slight improvement on these extended operating metrics, but, a properly engineered amp designed with normal caps taking in all the extents and designed to operate outside, or better than it's audio specs should operate sounding perfectly excellent. You shouldn't have to be wasting your time on these Nichicon cons.The only 2 case where some so called audio grade cap may be of use is either in small values where you want to create a filter to alter the sound which is not the case with the caps listed above. #2, inside the speaker crossover, where you want to filter full power, like 250 watts in series through the cap, driving that low impedance audio signals to a specific speaker driver. Again, the caps above are useless in this circumstance in that really high end speakers use much larger, higher voltage, extremely high performance consistent esr over dynamically driven operating loads. Again, nothing like the above Nichicon, or anything you can even purchase at digikey. (Note that such quality caps do not advertise some BS on some electronics parts supplier flyer, their reputation is earned and they are known in the industry and they don't need to advertise in such ways...)

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 04:36:20 am
content: If you (in general) were a douchebag with FAR too much money to spend on useless improvements to your stereo system, would you not want the largest, most wankiest technology in your overpriced, overdesigned, and underengeineered piece of tat audio player, so you can spend your days using the bottom 1/8th of your dynamic range to blast the neighborhood with the loudest base you can manage, all while reducing your hearing that couldn't hear the difference anyways to something that can't hear at all anymore?Yes I'm full of piss, my neighbors have been doing this shit for days. I'd be sitting outside smoking (meat in a smoker) and I hear somebody with their massive stereo blasting the ears out of anybody stupid enough to try and walk outside and enjoy the nice summer's day.This isn't about if their claims are real, and if their improvements actually do anything to improve sound quality, it's something they can stick on there so idiots buy it.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 04:41:24 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 09, 2017, 04:39:20 amI don't recall saying I dislike them draining the pockets of idiots stupid enough to buy this tat. I'm upset that the idiots who are stupid enough to buy this tat are allowed to breathe anymore.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 08:36:55 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 08, 2017, 11:21:25 pmWhy would you do that? Operate an electrolytic capacitor with inadequate DC bias, so the oxide layer isn't properly polarised. As you said poor design, no excuse.There's also no mention on the datasheet that these special audiophool capacitors will do better in the situations you've described above, just liberal use of audiophool terminology and bullshit.http://www.elna.co.jp/en/capacitor/alumi/catalog/pdf/rfs_e.pdf

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 08:43:40 am
content: Do decent capacitors make a difference in audio circuits, yes, but ANY decent capacitor will do without all the audio wankery.1) Always use low ESR capacitors, especially in decoupling situations, the difference on the power supply lines can be seen with a scope.2) Good (new) capacitors leak less, this avoids accidental DC bias on inputs and 'thump' when switching, seen and heard both of these3) Avoid cheap SMT mica capacitors like the plague because of microphonics. This bit me hard in a ham radio project and I learned my lesson.4) Wire capacitors correctly, that black band on some of the polystyrene and polyester devices indicates the end that should be connected to chassis (or the lower impedance point). It's the connection to the outside foil in the wrap.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 08:53:28 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 09, 2017, 08:47:32 amI agree with you about good components and poor design but you've missed the point: no actual figures or test data, supporting the idea that these capacitors are actually better, than ordinary, yet decent quality capacitors, is provided on the datasheet. All there is colourful language, which is meaningless in the absence of real data.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 09:52:53 am
content: Quote from: German_EE on July 09, 2017, 08:43:40 amAll good on thatbut sometimes the black bands are incorrect

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 12:29:09 pm
content: Trust but verify(Mr Carlson's Lab on capacitor bands)