Getting a picture on a mini camcorder CRT  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2023, 03:06:20 pm
content: I know, not very original, but for a bit of fun it appeals. I have the 1/2" crt from a broken Sony ccd-trv11e and worked out the ribbon cable connections thanks to Mr 12 volt vids. The manual for the camcorder says it is ntsc based and being in the UK i have pal gear (dvd player) going into it. So i thought i better get a converter box (shown in pic). But..i can't get a picture - I get a whitey screen whatever position the switch is in on the box.All the videos on this I've seen, they just seem to provide a composite video signal and away they go. I don't understand much about old tv signals, specifically how the channel frequency o/p of the dvd player (in my case) would be matched to the fixed channel i/p of the viewfinder crt (whatever that is?). Are they always the same?

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2023, 05:06:19 pm
content: The E at the end of Sony camcorder model names usually means it is a European model and is engineered for PAL. If it is a PAL model, then despite the impression you are under, the viewfinder module is expecting 625/50 input and you should not be using a conversion to NTSC. Even so, either NTSC or PAL format video into the viewfinder module from a 210 or a 210E should give something visible on the tube.The service manual can be downloaded fromhttps://www.manualslib.com/download/1002030/Sony-Ccd-Trv11.html. Use that to positively identify the video input point. Page 4-47 schematic. Page 4-49 location D2 for physical placing of CN901.Why are you using a cable with those Belling-Lee coax plugs? The video signal from the DVD player into the viewfinder needs to be baseband not RF. Your mention of "channel frequency o/p of the dvd player" and "fixed channel i/p of the viewfinder crt" is nonsense.Edit: Fixed link to Service Manual.

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2023, 08:31:51 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 23, 2023, 05:06:19 pmThanks for helping with my education on this. I've always skipped over analogue tv theory until now. And the only connectors i've ever used on the back of tvs/vcrs/dvds have been Scart connectors.What are the 210 and 210e you referred to? You lost me there.I checked in the manual and it's pin 3 for video which i've wired up so that's all good. I did try inputting a signal without the converter box too when i initially hooked everything up two weeks ago.I have that old coax cable there because i thought i would be plugging it into the rf out of an equally old vcr recorder. That didn't give a picture other than white so i moved on to the dvd player. Having soldered the pin to the wire I've left it like that and have to use adaptors to join it to a phono rca cable.So i'm using the rca Video out socket from the dvd player. Is that a baseband signal?I thought it was rf out tuned to channel 36 for an analogue tv to decode, hence my utter confusion. Still confused actually as i don't see any other connection options from my dvd player. I've looked up baseband, but in all the analogue tv theory sections in my books the only signal in town is the rf composite video/audio signal, so i'm none the wiser yet.I do appreciate your efforts though!

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2023, 11:01:58 pm
content: Sorry about the 210/210E. I did of course mean TRV11/11E. Don't know why I typed 210.Yes composite video goes in on pin 3, the middle one. And you need the ground side too on pin 2.Video waveforms you see likehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_video#/media/File:NTSC_Signal.pngare always baseband. DC to about 5MHz.

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2023, 09:44:49 am
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 23, 2023, 11:01:58 pmRight, got it as far as what a tv baseband signal - one yet to be modulated on an rf carrier. So the yellow rca video out socket on the dvd player is CVBS or baseband. I should be getting a picture then, but i'm not. Maybe the viewfinder has a problem. Yikes, that 232 page service manual is the longest one i think I've ever seen!

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2023, 11:05:39 am
content: The viewfinder is relatively simple. You have a raster on the screen so EHT and both H and V scans are OK. The video input goes through one IC and then to a few transistors to develop the higher voltage video into the tube. Easy to trace if you have a scope.Video in on pin 11 of IC901. Out (inverted) on pin 13. Q904 emitter is drive to CRT grid. Points 3,4 and 6 (in circles) on schematic page 4-48. Waveforms on previous page.If you do not have a scope, check voltages and do visual inspection.

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2023, 11:45:43 am
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 24, 2023, 11:05:39 amThanks! My work space is obliterated by a repair job atm, but I'll get my scope on it in a few days and report back.

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 05:50:31 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 24, 2023, 11:05:39 amOkay, i made a new video-in lead buoyed with enthusiasm. Now, the measurements: around the ball park figures in the SM were obtained. I also viewed the waveform on the scope. Looked ok as a composite waveforn to my untrained eye, but bear in mind it was only earlier in the day that i viewed a composite signal for the first time on my scop, just straight out the back of the DVD player. Pretty cool stuff!Picture still not there of course. I'm wondering if the viewfinder, being designed for only black & white, cannot deal with colour signals. That would make sense to me in terms of saving money in production.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 06:14:37 pm
content: Quote from: Quantumplate on May 27, 2023, 05:50:31 pmThere is a remote possibility of colour signals affecting the sync separator in that chip but even if that happened I would still expect something to appear on the screen. Have you looked at the signal on the emitter of that final transistor driving the CRT grid?

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 06:51:10 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 27, 2023, 06:14:37 pmYes, it's a healthy voltage and looks like the one pictured in the manual. It's like a composite minus the colour burst. One more thing i could try is rigging up my vcr with a black&white film showing. I know the pins out of the scart socket that i need. More faffing about! This is really bugging me though.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 06:56:49 pm
content: A pound to a penny the colour signal is not the problem.Does turning the brightness pot change the brightness?

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 07:29:55 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 27, 2023, 06:56:49 pmYes, had a twiddle and doing its job.Not sure i can face the rigmarol of connecting the vcr...next step could be buying a b&w dvd and trying that. Recommendations welcome..

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 07:30:49 pm
content: If I remember my old camcorder 101, these miniature (cute) B&W monitors had a luminance (Y) signal input only. No color component (Cb/r) required. The luminance pin of a S-Video out might work - or scart pin 19 if avail.Did you find the service manual and circuit diagrams for the TRV11e?+ Otherwise, the syscon inside the camcorder is doing the heavy lifting sync wise.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 07:43:30 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on May 27, 2023, 07:30:49 pmThe schematic clearly shows the monitor is self contained. Needs only power and composite video.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 08:23:30 pm
content: On the schematic, where on the system board does the 'composite' video signal originate? It may be tapped/mixed from the luminance channel that eventually feeds the video-out connector. Does your Sony service manual have any expected 'scope outputs for video?

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 09:08:09 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on May 27, 2023, 08:23:30 pmHi Andy,Thanks for joining in. I'm afraid as you can tell from reading this thread, this analogue tv thing is pretty new to me, fascinating though.The link to the schematic has been posted earlier. I'm not qualified to answer your questions. I'll rig up the vcr in the morning and see what materialises then.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 09:55:32 pm
content: The OP has confirmed video of nominal amplitude and shape s present at the output of the video driver to the grid of the CRT. He has also stated there is a blank raster and its brightness can be changed by adjusting the brightness control. The filament is also the CRT cathode. It should be working.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 01:11:23 am
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 27, 2023, 09:55:32 pmThe next spot to look is at the actual grid pin of the CRT.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 05:40:16 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on May 28, 2023, 01:11:23 amThe brightness control adjusts the dc voltage at the output of the video driver and thence to the grid. The brightness control is working. Connection from PCB to grid must be OK.Edit: See below.

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 08:27:39 am
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 27, 2023, 09:55:32 pmTried the vcr just now with a monochrome image. Nope, still just a whitewash! Worth a try. Well beginning to think it'll make a nice ornament - i believe James Dyson has one in his office.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 08:38:07 am
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 28, 2023, 05:40:16 amCan he cut the tube off with the brightness control?This device is a bit weird---the smallest screened monitor I worked on, which would have had a display about the size of the viewfinder in mid 1990s Broadcast "shoulder held" news cameras, had a very tiny magnetically deflected Trinitron in it, complete with the normal 3 guns driven with R,G,B.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 09:56:56 am
content: Oops. I've just looked at the schematic again and realised that the brightness control adjusts the cathode voltage, not the grid. So yes, check what is actually at the grid connection on the tube base, W901 pin 1.

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 11:04:39 am
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 28, 2023, 09:56:56 amJust checked all the voltages on all the ic pins:Pin1 0.75v o dear... Pin9 4.6vPin2 5.2v Pin10 gndPin3 4.0v Pin11 2.4vPin4 gnd Pin12 5.0vPin5 0.3v Pin13 2.6vPin6 -0.4v hmm.. Pin14 2.0vPin7 2.3v Pin15 2.0vPin8 5.0v Pin16 3.0vi'll try and fathom what all that means.I know it's not good though. Bought a camcorder labelled as parts only and sent with almost no packing,so i guess this is the result.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 11:31:54 am
content: I would not be worried about those voltages on pins 1 and 6. They relate to the vertical scan and unless you have a single bright horizontal line across an otherwise dark screen then there is definitely some vertical scan. Some meters can show strange results when measuring voltages that are a mix of DC and AC.Please connect your scope probe to pin 1 at the tube base and post a photo of the scope trace of the video there.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 11:56:45 am
content: bring back souvenirs, played on one like this in the past, it could receive directly any ntsc signals my mini tv loll i broke the tube

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 12:04:17 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 28, 2023, 11:31:54 amPure D.C. 0.75v as shown.I

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 12:16:22 pm
content: Aren't you wondering why this is not the video signal you stated you saw at the emitter of Q904?

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 08:07:09 pm
content: It's all there in the service manual - just remove the dot from the end of your link.The 'composite' input is actually a luminance signal that originates from IC 201.The service manual shows the expected scope traces for the EVF board.RTM

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 08:08:19 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 28, 2023, 12:16:22 pmSorry, life got in the way for a bit after whacking the photo up.Pins 3 and 5 are also putting out straight d.c. when they should be sawtooth waves of course for the vertical deflection. Pin 1 i'm not sure what should be emerging there, but these are all the chip vertical sync section so there's the problem - new chip needed i would assume. Luckily a couple of places still sell them.Why do you think pin 1 should be the video signal?

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 08:39:20 pm
content: Quote from: Quantumplate on May 28, 2023, 08:08:19 pmSorry, misread your instructions - i posted about pin 1 of the ic. You meant the tube connector point to see if that was working.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 09:04:16 pm
content: Quote from: Quantumplate on May 28, 2023, 08:08:19 pmI already told you (in Reply #5) which places to scope for the video signal. There is nothing amiss with the vertical deflection - the evidence for that is in front of your eyes when you look at the CRT screen. If you want to scope the vertical sawtooth it is on pin 5. Unless and until you find there is no inverted video coming out of the chip on pin 14, you have no reason to think the chip needs to be replaced.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2023, 12:28:03 am
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 28, 2023, 09:04:16 pmI think that should be pin13.TheDCvoltage on Q903 collector & Q904 emitter is important, as it is -10v derived from the centre tap of the FBT secondary via a rectifier & C914.I have had strife with "derived" supplies like that in the past-----the filter cap fails either O/C, when you get unfiltered half waverectifier crud, or S/C when you pretty much get "zilch".

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2023, 02:05:07 am
content: EDIT: I read the rest of the thread. And eliminated my suggested starting place. Good luck.Base band video, composit video, NTSC video, and PAL video are all terms that mean a video signal as would come from a camera which is just that, a CAMERA and nothing more. They usually do have sync and the color reference burst added to the combined waveform/signal. These terms, keeping in mind the differences between NTSC and PAL, all mean a signal that combines: black and white video information, a color subcarrier that contains the color information, the vertical and horizontal sync signals, and the color "burst" which is the timing reference for decoding the encoded color information. These signals do not contain audio. Base band audio, monaural of stereo, would be the accompanying audio signal.Base band video signals are commonly carried on 75 Ohm, coaxial cables with connectors like BNC and RCA. But almost any other kind of connector can also be used.When the base band or composit video signal AND the base band audio signal(s) are modulated on an RF carrier, you then have what is commonly called an RF signal. And it contains everything that a TV monitor needs to display both a picture and the sound.RF, modulated signals are commonly carried on 50 Ohm coaxial cables with type F, BNC, or many other kinds of coaxial connectors.You may notice that I listed BNC connectors for both base band and RF signals. But, since two different coaxial cable impedances are used for these two, the BNC connectors are also NOT the same. BNC connectors actually come in three varieties: 75 Ohm, 50 Ohm, and Non Continuous (not specified) impedance. The third of which is, perhaps, the most common.Quote from: Quantumplate on May 23, 2023, 08:31:51 pm

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2023, 08:50:04 am
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 28, 2023, 09:04:16 pm

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2023, 10:49:10 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on May 29, 2023, 12:28:03 amTypo. Yes, pin 13 is inverted video out to the discrete transistor Q903.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2023, 11:13:47 am
content: Don't know why you are hung up on the chip being faulty. It is the also the horizontal oscillator which provides drive out of pin 16 to Q902. Q902 cannot oscillate by itself. If Q902 was not switching on and off there would be no horizontal scan, no final anode voltage and no heater current. From what you have described seeing on the tube screen all those three are present so the chip is not dead. The chip also contains the vertical oscillator and output power to the vertical deflection coils. If that was not working the raster would not cover the screen height.Please use the scope on pin 13 of the IC. Is inverted video there or not? If yes, put your scope on the the grid pin of the CRT. That is pin 1 of W901. See the PCB layout on page 4-50 of the Service Manual. Is erect video there?

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2023, 02:31:04 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 29, 2023, 11:13:47 amYes, and yes - both present.I promise you that there are no sawtooth waveforms on pins 3 or 5, just d.c. So the vertical sync section of the chip is kaput, even though the rest seems fine.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2023, 04:34:53 pm
content: Quote from: Quantumplate on May 29, 2023, 02:31:04 pmPlease post two photos showing the screen at two significantly different brightness levels.

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2023, 04:57:14 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 29, 2023, 04:34:53 pm

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 09:42:38 am
content: Just musing on whether the problem may be C907 connected to the V.OSC part of the ic. I tried measuring it in situ of course, and my trusty B&K capacitance meter gave the readout you get when shorting the probes. Ok, so maybe pins 6 and 7 are connected internally i thought - but not according to my continuity test.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 12:04:23 pm
content: There are two conflicting pieces of evidence and a third that appears unrelated.1. No sawtooth waveform points to no vertical scan.2. Screen lit up evenly from top to bottom suggests there is vertical scan.3. Irrespective of vertical scan or not a changing voltage (ie video) on Q904 emitter should be making visible changes to screen brightness.Before you go to the step of changing the IC it would be best to get a definitive answer about vertical scan. There is one test I can think of. On a display with a vertical amplitude (ie height) or shift control one could adjust it to bring the top and/or bottom of the raster into view. Sharp transitions between the middle lit area and top and/or bottom unlit area of the screen would be proof of vertical scan.Your viewfinder has no such control. It would of course be possible to reduce the scan current by increasing the value of some resistor such as R915 but that is a tiddly surface mount one. Prefer not to try to swap that out (and back in again afterwards) especially if awkward to get at.I suggest the less invasive method of trying to use a magnet to shift the electron beam travelling down the tube. This would act like a shift control and bring edge of illuminated area into the visible part of the screen. A bar magnet would probably be more effective than a horseshoe one but whatever you can lay your hands on. Just experiment with moving it around near the deflection coils yoke and see if you can get a horizontal edge or one of the corners visible. If you see sharp transition then vertical scan is happening, If you see a slow soft transition I would suspect a problem with CRT voltages causing a very defocused electron beam illuminating the whole screen.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 02:11:09 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 30, 2023, 12:04:23 pmThe simplest fault finding techniques are often the bestYou could also try videoing the CRT with a mobile phone. Experiment with frame rates if they are available on the movie app. The result should be be a flickering or strobing display. Again, this with show the raster is doing something.

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 02:45:00 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 30, 2023, 12:04:23 pmTime to say i appreciate your tenacity!Right, so, couple of pics to look at:1st one is with power to the EVF dropped from 5v to around 3.5v. I get about the top 1/6 of the screen illuminated, fuzzy as hell, but with evidence of moving shapes/brightnesses as the dvd plays. Just thought you'd like to know.2nd pic is pin 4 on connector CN902 - horizontal coil, showing around 50v pk-pk. Not a sawtooth though is it?I tried the magnet trick with my telescopic screw retriever. No sharp transitions to be seen, just very gloopy soft transitions.

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 03:11:44 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on May 30, 2023, 02:11:09 pm

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 03:12:02 pm
content: Quote from: Quantumplate on May 30, 2023, 02:45:00 pmYou will not see avoltagesawtooth when probing the horizontal deflection coil. At horizontal sweep rate the inductance of the deflection coil dominates its resistance. So voltage step gives an approximation to sawtoothcurrent. It is the current which generates the field which deflects the beam. The step is the long flat bit along the bottom of the scope trace. The other end of the coil is at +ve supply.Can you do a better close-up of the CRT screen when running at reduced voltage and video playing?I have attached the datasheet for the IC. Would be interesting to see the waveform on pin 8.

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 04:19:23 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 30, 2023, 03:12:02 pmFraid i can't - comes out too overexposed. It looks like only one horizontal line repeated multiple times.Pin 8 is doing weird things to my scope. The central 0v beam stays where it is, plus the thin d.c. line shown pops up...

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 04:31:44 pm
content: Quote from: Quantumplate on May 30, 2023, 04:19:23 pmScope is not triggering properly. Maybe timebase is set too fast. Should be 5ms.

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 04:59:17 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 30, 2023, 04:31:44 pmScope is not triggering properly. Maybe timebase is set too fast. Should be 5ms.Yes, you're right, wasn't expecting to go that slow.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 05:56:57 pm
content: Vertical oscillator is running OK.When you measured the voltages on the IC pins did you actually measure pin 4 or did you just assume it was GND because the schematic shows that? And could you recheck that -0.4 volts on pin 6? I cannot figure out how/why there would be any negative voltages.

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 06:17:00 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on May 30, 2023, 05:56:57 pmYes i measured pin 4 and got 12mV.Checked pin 6, now getting 1.5v. Not sure what happened earlier - apologies.

author: Quantumplate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 04:47:24 pm
content: The end of this saga was..It was a bad chip. Meant to take a photo, but i packed up too soon. I now have a spare chip that i'll likely never use if someone needs it! (had to buy them in 2's)