A ‘calculated risk’ risk purchase - two faulty Seek Reveal XR cameras :) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 08:33:59 pm
content: Two more poorly Seek Thermal Reveal cameras are currently on their way to me for some TLCThe two cameras came up on eBay as a faulty pair, which in itself is rare. These cameras are generally pretty reliable and many faults stem from being dropped or other abuse by the user. This particular pair of cameras caught my eye as they are the popular XR (20 Degree FOV) model in the Camouflage casing design. Hunters seem to like these for spotting game. One unit is the Fast Frame (>15fps) model and the other appears to be the Slow Frame version.In recent auctions for faulty Seek Reveal units they have still commanded reasonable money and this was factored into my valuation for bidding purposes. When fully operational the value increases significantly, as would be expectedThe two Seek Reveal XR units are sold as faulty and the seller has excellent feedback so hopefully no one has already been fiddling inside them. For two cameras to fail with the same “no thermal image” fault is unusual, as already stated. This also captured my interest. The fault could be something as simple as the imaging Core flexible cable breaking free from the main board, or it could be something more challenging, or even unrepairable. We shall see.So what was my assessment of the two units before placing my bids ?1. Casings appear to be undamaged2. Display glass is not damaged and one has a protector, suggesting a caring owner.3. Button pad is undamaged4. Camera boots5. Camera indicates a charged battery6. Menu system is operative7. Camera is running but the thermal image is black / absentBoth cameras have the same symptoms and are as above.To me this suggests a camera in which the operating system is operational so hopefully we are not dealing with a corruption of a flash storage or failed firmware update as I would expect issues with the boot and/or menu system. The lack of any image information or noise being present on the thermal image display suggests to me that the image processor is not receiving any valid data on its digital inputs. The A to D takes place in the core module. The core module may be either disconnected from the main PCB or there is no power getting to it. If the core module is missing I will be having words with the seller, but such is unlikely as the core is useless on its own.Could the wrong firmware have been installed and caused a compatibility issue with the core .... such a installing Pro software in the standard Reveal? This is unlikely as I believe the update would identify the wrong platform and not install. The Reveal and Reveal PRO use different chipsets so even if the firmware installed the camera would be bricked. As already stated, a corrupted firmware update is always a possibility, especially if someone is experimenting with modifications to the firmware. But to damage two cameras in this way and for them to still function apart from the thermal image ? Hmmm I doubt it.When the two units arrive on Saturday (Hopefully) I will assess their symptoms first hand And then remove the bottom half of the casing to check the cores ribbon connection. If all is well with that I will remove the front panel that holds the core and check the ribbon connection at the core. If nothing is found, I will start my usual assessment and diagnostics process to determine what is going on with the cameras. I will have my standard Reveal Camera to use as a reference unit as wellI attach the auction pictures. Considering I was buying two of the XR camouflage models and one is the FF model, the price was rightAs stated in the post title...... a calculated risk.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2020, 12:14:51 pm
content: The two Seek Reveal XR cameras arrived a few minutes agoInitial testing shows a delayed boot sequence. This is indicative of an issue communicating with the Seek Microbolometer PCBA. I think the interconnecting ribbon cable between the core and the main PCB will be first on the checklist this timeFor two units to suffer the same fault symptom suggests to me a fault vulnerability in the design.Sadly these units have the darned Pentagon socket head security screws on the front assembly so I shall be introducing ‘Mr Drill’ to them if and when I need to remove that assembly. As readers of my Seek Reveal repair will know, I tried the gentle approach to these security screws but the only thing they respond to is brute forceMore laterFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2020, 01:30:12 pm
content: The four Pentagon socket head screws were removed with my custom made pentagon tip screwdriver without them rounding out, as had occurred on my Seek Reveal disassembly. The screws have water resistant seals on them as were not so tight in their chassis receptacles. My custom tool failed on the fourth screw...... typical ! A suitable torx bit finished the jobFraser

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2020, 01:32:32 pm
content: Nice one, I was just going to suggest making a custom tool - you seem to run into these screws often enough!Have you got a close up that shows what the heads of those things look like? I see you did in your other repair thread... I'll see if it looks like something that can be purchased.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2020, 03:48:47 pm
content: The Pentagon socket head is a COTS product but the official screwdriver is very expensive and has limited availability for obvious reasons.Detail may be found here:https://www.brycefastener.com/penta-plus-vandal-proof-screws.htmlhttps://www.fastenright.com/general-fixings/pin-pentagon-button-self-tapping-security-screw/PP05Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2020, 03:59:40 pm
content: I have just completed a teardown of both Reveal XR cameras and, as expected, they both have the same fault. The Ribbon cable that connects the Core to the main board becomes disconnected at the Main board end. Why does this happen ? Well there are two factors that lead to this failure..... a design flaw and the user dropping the camera !The design flaw is the addition of an unsecured ferrite block on the core ribbon cable. The weight of this block means that a drop can cause the unsecured ferrite block to pull the ribbon out of its socket on the main board. One socket on the two cameras I dismantled has been damaged in the process but is repairable. When designing or modifying portable kit, the designer needs to consider kinetic energy and its action on components. That ferrite block is relatively heavy and can exert significant force on the main board ribbon connector.Not much more to say about this repair except to say, the cameras both work fine when the ribbon is reconnected. I have dismantled both cameras for cleaning. I am providing pictures of the two camera cores side by side for comparison of XR and XR FF. There are separate sets of pictures for each camera teardown.Fraser

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2020, 04:00:49 pm
content: Maybe one of these could be attacked with a dremel to good effect? Part of a security bit set from eBay...

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2020, 04:08:16 pm
content: Comparison Pictures Reveal XR Vs Reveal XR Fast Frame cores.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2020, 04:12:46 pm
content: Seek Reveal XR Fast Frame version (>15fps) teardown picturesFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2020, 04:17:35 pm
content: Reveal XR FF continued......

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2020, 04:23:46 pm
content: Seek Reveal XR Slow Frame version (<9fps) teardown pictures

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2020, 04:27:03 pm
content: Reveal XR continued....

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2020, 06:47:27 pm
content: Silversolder,If I decide to work on more Seek Reveal cameras, I will make a steel pentagon shaped hollow screwdriver bit in steel using a lathe and Milling machine. I will then harden the bit so that it lasts a while. My previous tool was made in brass and wore out quickly. I may not work on another Seek Reveal camera for some time though as I will not be buying any more to play withUnless I stumble upon a Seek Reveal Shield of course!I will be fitting standard M2 x 16mm self tapping screws when rebuilding the cameras as there is no need for security screws.Fraser

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2020, 06:59:11 pm
content: Fraser, do you have a closeup picture of these screw's head ?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2020, 07:18:17 pm
content: Hiya,It is a well documented security design as detailed earlier. What information would you like on it ?The screws used in the Reveal are unusually long fir their diameter (M2 x 20mm) and the head is very small. Not easy to get a decent picture of the head with my camera.I attach some pictures that show the design better than I can achieve with my cameras as the heads on the screws I have are only approx 3.5mm diameter.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2020, 07:35:33 pm
content: A picture of the Pentagon screw head used on the Seek Reveal (held in a pin chuck). As previously stated, my camera is not able to capture a decent image of the small screw head. The Pentagon shape and center pin is visible however. The metal used for this screw is very soft and any tooling applied to it scratched the black coating. Nasty little blighters, just like most decent security screwsFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2020, 07:39:22 pm
content: Taken from my other Seek Reveal repair thread.......https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/seek-reveal-camera-guess-the-fault-)/For anyone who needs the information....Front assembly retaining screw physical dimensions:Head type : Socket Head Half DomeHead diameter : 3.91mmHead Depth : 1.45mmTotal shaft length (Plain + Threaded) : 19mmOf which: Plain section length = 9mm, Threaded Section = 10mmThread Type : self tapping for plastic, blunt tip.Thread Major Diameter = 2.14mmThread Minor Diameter = 1.72mmPlain Shaft diameter= 1.84mmI believe a fully threaded screw of the same dimensions will be a suitable replacement if one with a Partial plain shank cannot be sourced.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2020, 12:52:23 pm
content: Just spoke to the seller. He is interested in wildlife conservation. That is also an interest of mine, especially the wildlife local to my home. I care for four Hedgehogs who visit our garden each nightHe has two more of these reveal XR cameras so is still equipped for the task. He was pleased to hear that the units were repairable and I explained the issue surrounding dropping these cameras, or even rough handling. I will support his remaining two cameras if required.I meet a lot of interesting people via my eBay purchasesThese small Reveal XR Cameras are very convenient for wildlife detection and monitoringFraser

author: ikrase
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2020, 02:07:15 am
content: Based on how those things are put together I wonder if you could make an elbow connector so that the camera would have the more ergonomic angled shape.