New R&S RTO6 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: darkstar49
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2021, 01:55:22 pm
content: Largely out-of-range for most of us here, still... can't wait to see some of those on Ebay...https://youtu.be/yK0Mh-l2stQhttps://youtu.be/ZNfOhXdHXN8https://youtu.be/TYd7csyFLqQThese guys really know what 'MDO' means...

author: jusaca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2021, 02:44:42 pm
content: Interestingly, this new higher end series has only an 8 Bit ADC, instead of the 12 Bit one they use in some of the lower price series.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2021, 03:37:53 pm
content: The new trade dress looks sharp!Vertically oriented knobs for vertical control and horizontally oriented knobs for horizontal control? I love it! It looks like they got rid of the record length knob, though, which is a bummer. I use that knob a lot and miss it on other scopes. Ah well. It's a small quibble. My other R&S design choice favorites have grown in industry mindshare (RGB ring knobs, History Mode) and I suppose you can't win them allThe intensity-graded overlapped FFTs are wonderful. Those are what initially drew my eye to the RTO product line a decade ago. Since then, they have gotten faster and gotten more bins, but the competition has been heating up. Tek's overlap/composite capability is poor but they have the ability to trigger on frequency and decouple the timebases. Keysight has full blown RTSA capability which can cover 100% of the acquired samples in overlapped FFTs but the time correlation is poor. My dream is to see all these capabilities in a single scope. The race is on!It looks like the RTO6 is currently still using the same custom R&S ADC set as the last two RTO generations, even my RTO1024: 4x 10GS/s 8-bit. Those are starting to show their age. The ENOB is abnormally high for an 8 bit ADC and the "HD mode" filtering is abnormally good for a hi-res mode (it's not just a boxcar filter and the filtered waveform is available for trigger) but still, it's aging. The R&S ADC team made a 10-bit 5GS/s design for the RTM/RTA scopes a couple years ago, so I imagine there were plans to refresh the RTO front-end that didn't quite land in time. That's unfortunate, but given the global chip shortage it isn't necessarily surprising. I am sure those new ADCs will show up sooner or later!

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2021, 04:32:51 pm
content: The GUI has been vastly improved over the previous RTO models

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2021, 04:53:20 pm
content: Agreed. Those FFTs are really something! 10kHz RBW over 10GS/s sampling, overlapped and composited enough to make a heatmap, and still with lively updates! Throw in another factor of 2 because R&S knows not to do rectangular windowing. Between this and the gigasample traces compositing at several frames per second, I am very excited by the ability to chew through data!This is the RTO ADC and paper:QuoteThe ADC is notable for taking the approach of "build one converter and make it very, very fast" rather than "build many converters, sample heavily and interleave heavily, and calibrate them very carefully to match each other." This strategy served them well in 2010, hopefully it didn't backfire in 2020, but regardless, I'm sure the timing with the chip crunch didn't help. The other vendors finished their ADC refresh cycles right before COVID while R&S got caught out. They are probably making the right move by not letting ADC issues stop them from the trade dress and GUI refresh. Different teams, different timing, staggered releases -- it's not a delay, it's Tick Tock development, right? Right.Does anyone know if the RTM/RTA adc papers are published (you know, the ones that say "SAD" on the lid)? Also, 5 GS/s is the nameplate sample rate, but I don't know what the sampling/multiplexing looks like. Does anyone know how many of these chips live in a RTA?

author: nikifena
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2021, 08:08:21 pm
content: It reminds me of the new Tek scopes overall look, but I like it!

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2021, 08:33:45 pm
content: It goes both ways. The singular ring-lit RGB vertical control popped up first in R&S land and migrated to Tek land. The boxy gray-with-highlight-strip channel summaries popped up in Tek land and migrated to R&S land. In the future, I hope that Tek copies the overlapped + color graded FFTs from R&S and that R&S copies the decoupled timebase ability from Tek.Competition is good for the customer!

author: sergeyklenov
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2021, 07:30:40 am
content: Same scope characteristic like rto2000I install new rto6 firmware on my rto2000 and see sameDifference only in display

author: Eric_S
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2021, 07:05:53 am
content: A bit surprised that they didn't go with eight channels, as is the trend these days.But I suppose that such configurations makes the most sense with a higher ENOB / bit ADC (measuring on three phase inverters/ engines + a torque transducer, etc).

author: Jackob
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2021, 11:00:45 am
content: Quote from: sergeyklenov on October 03, 2021, 07:30:40 amSergey - do you know if RTO6 FW can be installed to RTO1k or RTO2k FW can be installed to RTO1k? Would be glad to get an update to my RTO 1k UI.Br, Jackob

author: sergeyklenov
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2021, 11:08:40 am
content: On RTO/RTE10xx i think possible install versions before 3.7 if i remember good.The main problem is hardware drivers. From version to version i see decreasing x86 drivers. So windows 7 work unstable with xp drivers installed. For example you lucky and install driver and it work. But after reboot driver become not work (memory allocation problems) You can delete it and reinstall several times and make it again work. After next reboot it again crash.I tested many hardwares with all os…

author: Jackob
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2021, 01:38:42 pm
content: You remember correctly. After v3.7 R&S published also V4.15.1.0 (mybe by an error) as an update to RTO1&2k and RTE but they took it promptly back from their web-site. I tried also it, but it failed to install.

author: The Electrician
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2021, 04:23:30 pm
content: Quote from: sergeyklenov on October 03, 2021, 07:30:40 amAre you saying that installing the RT06 firmware on your RTO2000 gives you the new RT06 GUI?

author: sergeyklenov
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 04:50:28 am
content: Quote from: The Electrician on October 08, 2021, 04:23:30 pmYes.

author: The Electrician
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 05:50:49 am
content: Quote from: sergeyklenov on October 10, 2021, 04:50:28 amWhere did you get the RT06 firmware? I don't see it here where I would have expected it in the "Related downloads" section:https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/products/test-and-measurement/oscilloscopes/rs-rto6-oscilloscope_63493-1079745.htmlThe RTO2000 has its firmware in the "Related downloads" section:https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/products/test-and-measurement/oscilloscopes/rs-rto2000-oscilloscope_63493-10790.htmlPerhaps they removed it when they noticed that you revealed that it can be loaded on the RTO2000

author: Omicron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 06:27:45 am
content: In the release notes for the R&S ScopeSuite application it says that it was tested against firmwares 4.80.1 and 5.0.1 on the RTP and RTO. 5.0.1 is the RTO6 firmware, so it seems that it was intended to run on the older models as well.I suspect that because the latest version (5.0.1) ships as standard on the RTO6, they haven't seen a need create a "firmware" section for it yet on their web site.When I asked R&S if the hardware options for the RTO2000 would work on the RTO6, they said "no, you need to buy new ones". And they do have new order codes. But they look absolutely identical. In one of their videos you even see the guy plugging in an RTO version of the function generator into the RTO6. So would be interesting to know if the old plug-ins work or if they've crippled them somehow.I was thinking about trading in my RTO2014 for an RTO6. I bought the decode bundle and some other software options for it just months ago, so I asked R&S if they could simply transfer the options to the new scope. Seemed reasonable to me as I was trading in the old one and I had just bought the licenses shortly before. But they refused. They did offer a discount though. In the end I kept the RTO2014.

author: The Electrician
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 06:57:47 am
content: Quote from: Omicron on October 10, 2021, 06:27:45 amSo according to what Sergey is telling us, why buy an RTO6 if the RTO6 firmware can run on an RTO2000. You would get the functionality of the new RTO6 GUI and the smaller screen is something you're used to anyway.Or is there something I'm overlooking that makes that not work; Murphy's law, you know.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 08:03:12 am
content: Quote from: The Electrician on October 10, 2021, 05:50:49 amHere.Edit: My bad. This is the ScopeSuite app.

author: Omicron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 08:17:56 am
content: The ScopeSuite application is not the firmware. This is some automation add-on. The firmware page is here:https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rto/

author: TRN
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 09:04:32 am
content: Latest version from this link is RTO. version 4.80 for the RTO2000Version 5.0.1 for the RTO6 is nowhere to be found.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 04:37:46 pm
content: EDIT: Whoops, yep, ScopeSuite is not the firmware!I would be interested in seeing some of the version information from RTO2000 and RTO6. It might help feed some of our speculation about changes or similarities. I have a pet theory that RTO6 has a RTO2000 frontend while they sort out problems with the new ADCs. Version numbers would clear that up.The full information lives in DeviceFootprint files (from C:\ProgramData\Rohde-Schwarz\RTx), but there are serial numbers in there too so it's probably reasonable to trim at </HardwareList> and scrub the "deviceId" and "sn" attributes. Here's my RTO1024:Quote

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 04:58:51 pm
content: Quote from: jjoonathan on October 10, 2021, 04:37:46 pmBeware, this allows the recovery of the S/N.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 05:49:36 pm
content: Oh, that's a checksum? Thanks for the heads-up!

author: TRN
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 06:01:54 pm
content: Hi sergeyklenov,Are you willing to share the RTO6 firmware?Thks

author: sergeyklenov
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 10:04:59 pm
content: RTO6/RTO2000 ScopeSuite available on R&S downloads.https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/software/rto6/

author: The Electrician
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 11:55:05 pm
content: Quote from: sergeyklenov on October 10, 2021, 10:04:59 pmScopeSuite is not the firmware. Did you install ScopeSuite on your RTO2000 or the RTO6 firmware?

author: sergeyklenov
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2021, 08:42:35 am
content: Maybe im wrong. I not install this. I copied ssd from RTO64 and install it in RTO2000Below screen of installed packages:

author: Omicron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2021, 01:42:02 pm
content: For anyone considering these scopes, seems they are running a promotion right now:https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RS-Flyer-RTO6-RTP-Promo-Instant-insight-meets-in-depth-information-en-3683-3820-32-v0100.pdf40% off. Still won't be cheap though but will save a bunch nonetheless. Only 2 months ago I asked them for an offerwith trade-in of my RTO2014and they gave me only 25%! I didn't take them up on that offer fortunately.It's nice to see these kinds of promotions, but on the other hand it does make buying one of these things feel a bit like a mine field. Pick the wrong moment and you pay way WAY too much.Oops, it seems this discount only applies to educational institutions. My bad!

author: sergeyklenov
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2021, 01:52:02 pm
content: They very want replace there old models, because all previous devices cracked many years ago.They try move to another java sim card and hope they will be safe )))))Offcourse they do it with your money!No difference and i not recommend to buy rto6.

author: Omicron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 08:31:11 am
content: For those interested: a new firmware is out, version 5.10.1.0. This brings the new RTO6 user interface to the older RTO2000 and RTP scopes.Maybe also interesting to know is that the older hardware modules for the MSO and for the function generator still work on the RTO6. So if you are upgrading from an earlier RTO you can re-use those modules in the RTO6. The only thing that has changed about them seems to be the order code.

author: TRN
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 03, 2022, 04:36:05 pm
content: Would be nice if this version would work on the RTO1000 models as well