Desktop Pick and Place Machines  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Strife
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 04:10:25 am
content: Hey guys!I am conducting some research on pick and place (pnp) machines and thought I'd ask the best. For those of you who don't know, a pnp machine is a manufacturing tool which can very rapidly and precisely pick up and place small surface mount electronics onto a circuit board, where they can be reflow soldered.For fellow hobbyists/professionals such as yourselves, what are your thoughts on the concept of a desktop pick and place machine, designed for at home use?What are your thoughts on current pick and place machines in the market such as NeoDen? -http://www.aliexpress.com/item/SMT-Pick-and-Place-machine-TM220A-High-Precision-Printer-PM3040-Reflow-Oven-T-962C-Manufacturer-Neoden/32241204427.htmlIf you do own a pnp machine, which brand, and what are your thoughts so far? What kind of projects do you/would you use it for? If you would like one, what has stopped you from purchasing one?If you do not want one, why? Do you feel the value added by a pnp machine justifies the cost which can be anywhere from $2000-$6000?All responses and opinions are welcome!

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 01:12:40 pm
content: Personally I don't see the need for one. They are talked about endlessly as being a 'holy grail' piece of equipment to have but I think there does not exist a need (for me at least) for a 'personal' P&P machine.If I am making a small quantity of boards, it is quicker for me to just put the radio on, make a tea and just get on and hand solder them than to set up a P&P machine. If I am doing a large number of boards, I just send them out to a local manufacturer who does it for me and I get on with something else.Essentially I'd say the basic principle at work (the same as with any large capital equipment) is as follows:1. If it's cheap, it will be shit and cost you £££ in rejects and fiddly set up time etc.2. If it is expensive it will be good but it will need to be working 24h per day to earn its keep.Therefore it works out cheaper to get someone who is cranking out boards all day long to crank out your boards.

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 05:42:14 pm
content: Quote from: DenzilPenberthy on November 12, 2015, 01:12:40 pmOut of interest who do you recommend in the UK and what kind of volumes?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 08:41:37 pm
content: Quote from: DenzilPenberthy on November 12, 2015, 01:12:40 pmTrue. A 'personal' PNP is either far to shitty or very expensive. I have hand-built a TON of PCBs at all levels of difficulty - placing many 10's of thousands of parts in the last year alone.I am a tinkerer/hobbyist turned professional. I also purchased a PNP after a ton of research about what I needed/wanted and what is actually available. There are essentially 3 choices:1. New commercial system which start at nearly $100k with feeders. Not talking about the random re-brand companies, but 'real' PNP companies. These are pretty much exclusively designed for continuous production in high volumes. High initial cost, high learning curve, high operating cost.2. Used commercial system (what I got). These are all over the map as you would guess. If you get a 'deal' on a machine with no support, feeders, manuals, etc you are wasting time and money. These things need support or a MASSIVE DIY investment or both. I purchased a Quad IVC that had been converted to a PPM 4000C. This is old hardware with updated software and it is fully supported - at a cost. All the parts are expensive. Some controller PCB or stepper goes bad be prepared to shell out real money. Mine was a major project that required board level repair, software sleuthing, PSU repairs, mechanical repair and calibration, scratch designed and CNC'd parts, etc. It cost about $5k plus $3k parts and about a month of labor. If I was not an mechanical engineer with 5 axis CNC along with my EE skills - it would have been substantially more money. In the end I have a commercial machine that is vastly more capable than any desktop machine - but at a cost of course. I can place any part imaginable - 1005 passives, big inductors, cut tape, waffles, reels, etc with 100+ parts on the machine all at once. This means I can have the machine setup for 6 different designs at the same time. That kind of setup allows me to do 1 piece of 6 different PCB's in minutes.3. Desktop systems like the TM220/TM240 types seem like a good idea at first but for who? I cannot think of any reason at all for a hobbyist to need a PNP, it's neat and cool but I would spend that money on test equipment or something else that is useful. The cheap machines are cheap for a reason, they SUCK. That suckiness could be any of the following:1. Reliability, low. The ones I looked at are specifically targeting a low cost solution. Reliability is expensive.2. Fiddly setup. Wasting the time you are trying to save.3. low capability, low-modest precision, feeder count, etc. This issue has you hand placing the hard parts and the PNP is only helping with the passives.4. Slow in general. I am not talking about the CPH, but the whole thing. Imaging you have two people, one starts manually placing parts and the other start setting up and programming a PNP. There is a good chance the manual person would win getting the first board in the oven.Quote from: DenzilPenberthy on November 12, 2015, 01:12:40 pmThis is only sort of true. I fit in the middle where I am too big for manual and too small/mixed for assembly houses. An assembly house needs a project to be kitted which takes time. The quality of the kitting and documentation is directly related to the quality of what you get back in the end. There are NRE charges that are not small and then you have to get in line and wait for your job to come up. If you ordered 25 boards and there are mistakes you have 25 bad boards whether it's your fault or the CM that did it. You have get more PCB and parts to solve that problem. In general, for low volume (<50 like me) and high mix (lots of different designs), farming out the service is slow, expensive, and prone to have problems. For larger runs, the NRE (setup fees) become less significant and CM's start to make a load of sense. I have never made more than 25 of any PCB and I always need a super fast turnaround with ZERO mistakes - that requirement is expensive.I ended up getting a whole system so that I could respond faster than any contract manufacturer. I can design/order a PCB and have the PNP setup and ready the instant it arrives and only do one PCB. That single PCB can be assembled and tested literally minutes after it arrives. I can make changes to values if needed and confirm all parts are oriented correctly before I blast off 25pcs at a cost of $100/ea in parts. I have total control and very fast response time. This capability, of course, comes at a cost far bigger than just the $8k I spent on a PNP. I had to get a printer and oven that were an additional $5k for low-end entry level stuff. Then the learning curve was intense - learning about the whole process end-to-end was no joke and it's never ending. The end capability is worth the expense and hassle for me, but not for everyone. It is definitely NOT for anyone not making money from it. If you simply like challenges and have a lot of extra $$, then go for it. I have certainly had fun along the way since I love learning new things.

author: Strife
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 08:10:26 pm
content: Thank you all for your insight,Quote from: rx8pilot on November 12, 2015, 08:41:37 pmConsumer grade PNP machines are a relatively new technology, meaning very few are on the market at the moment. Obviously as these products mature, short-comings such as reliability, set-up time, speed, accuracy will hopefully be addressed. Do you feel that at that point, PNP machines would start to gain traction (among electronics hobbyists/professionals), perhaps the way we see 3D printers exploding in the DIY market, or do you feel that still they do not provide value to the majority of hobbyists due to the scale of their work (i.e. production wise)?

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 09:19:19 pm
content: "Consumer grade PNP" is kind of an oxymoron. What sort of "consumer" has a use for a PNP? Hobbyist, maybe, but only if they fall into that narrow band where hand-placing is burdensome, but quantities are too small or erratic for CMs to make sense, and even then the amount of setup, futzing, and baby-sitting time required by a low-end machine is still likely to swamp any gains in productivity. Certainly there's room for improvement in the desktop class of machines, but I just don't see how there's enough broad-base interest in that market segment to fuel the sort of development that we've seen with 3D printers. Remember, 3D printers appeal to just about everyone, a desktop PNP is only going to appeal to dedicated EE nerds or a certain subset of entrepreneur.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2015, 12:22:41 am
content: Quote from: Strife on November 13, 2015, 08:10:26 pmI see no use in a 'consumer' PNP machine. If you are a hobbyist and make a few PCB designs each year, say even with a few hundred parts on each board, just hand build them. That is what I did. I got a powered vac pen, hot air system, stereo microscope, and prototype stencils. With those things, I could assemble just about anything, just slowly and with a few manual touch-ups required. There is no real need for CM assembly or in-house PNP. The effort the goes into a PNP would be way more than the time spent assembling. But what happens when you want to sell your new board at your new online store? That is where things change, you are now needing volume and the time spent on each PCB is worth real money. That is what PNP is for.The big change for me was when I decided to make a career change and go into electronics as my full time job. The goal was to tip-toe into it slowly so that I reduce my risk of career crash and burn. I knew what I wanted to build so with a clear goal in mind I started going after it. This is where my mindset started to change from hobbyist to professional. My equipment was now an actual investment in my future. Time is money, etc. Ultra slow assembly was not going to work anymore. I looked into local and overseas assembly houses to make my prototypes and small production runs. The costs were pretty high. I needed to do about 6 different PCB's, each with a number of revisions. Keep in mind that I am learning electronics as I go, so the number of mistakes is high. The coordination, documentation, kitting, and other setup tasks was almost always far worse than just assembling the damn things myself.For 'production' I got to where I was doing batches of about 15-20 boards at a time. This was when I started to really struggle. I was making PCB's instead of running the business, but if I paid a CM to make just a few PCB's the profit was blasted away. In addition, the designs were changing rapidly as I learned more and more about the problem I was trying to solve. Too many for hand assembly, ans too few for CM's. It sucked. I hunkered down and hand built about 150 systems - each one with about 400 parts. As painful as that was, I was able to build a few, sell them, buy more parts, build a few more, sell them, buy more parts, etc, etc. The risk was very low, progress was slow, but I was making enough money to buy more tools. One of those tools was a used (and beat up) PNP machine that could assemble in one day what was taking me a month to build by hand.I see low-end PNP machines as a stepping stone to get into the business, not as a tool for hobbyists. The PNP is one of MANY pieces and parts to a manufacturing program. I am a mechanical engineer and started/operated a manufacturing company about 10 years ago. That business had 5 axis CNC machines at the center. When I first started, I could only think of the machine itself. I focused all my energy learning about milling machines, models, companies, etc. I eventually purchased one. I remember so clearly the delivery day when the brand new fancy mill showed up. I thought I was in business after spending all that money. Tip of the iceberg! $600 for the rigging crew, $5000 for the electrical installation, $10k for compressed air, $20k for tools and tool holders, $15k for work holding, $16k for software, $10k for a saw, $15k for de-burring machines, easily another $15k on random supplies and measuring tools. That business taught me one very valuable lesson - if you go into business, BE IN BUSINESS. I had some early attempts at 'saving' money with cheap tools, software and things. Each time I spent way more money than I saved. I eventually learned that high-end solid carbide tools (that cost 6x the cost of random HSS tools) where by far the cheapest solution. It looks counter-intuitive on paper that a $100 tool is way less expensive than a $15 tool - but it is. To BE IN BUSINESS you cannot operate like a hobbyist anymore. Productivity is a live or die concept and you will not likely build a good business on hobby equipment.Cheap, entry level PNP attempts are cutting corners on a process that is very very unforgiving of cutting corners. I am sure they will improve over time, but they will not improve while the price goes down. There are just too many things a PNP has to do to be a productive tool. It is far and away more complicated than 3D printing! I could see something in the $20k range being a useful place for a new and small business to get their feet wet. After going completely through the process from dreaming to learning to buying to fixing to operating, I am thankful that I was able to find a fixer-upper PNP that can get any job done regardless of the parts type.DDM Novastar was on my list as well. Why? Not because they are fast, but because they were easy to setup and are designed for short runs. They start around $30k configured with vision I think.I looked a Manncorp FVX which was about $50k once it was all configured. I did not like the weird off-shore re-branding whatever they do. I felt like I was dealing with a marketing company than a PNP manufacturer.My machine was a random eBay find and would not be easily repeated. I am still under $10k for 3600cph and a boatload of feeders.For the $5k - $8k Chinese machines? I would never hang my business on those. If you are thinking of designing and building cheap machines, good luck. They Hobby price point would need to be so low that it would not be worth it for either side. The entry level business that wants PNP? Maybe, I spent that much but only did it because I got a machine that was a deal (PPM currently sells what I have today for over $50k with all the add-ons) I got lucky to get it <$10k.

author: Strife
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 05:59:21 am
content: Thanks for your insight.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 11:32:09 am
content: This is shameless self-promotion, so read with grain of salt. Still:QuoteThat's where I was some time ago. Doing a board with a few hundred components can be done manually, but imo, it is more of a hero story than how it should be done. Especially, when it is a new design and in my case, tight enough that there is no room silk screen. Then, looking up the part and finding the spot on the PCB was too much. I wanted a prototype assembly machine. To my surprise, there wasn't any on the market. Even the Neoden is targeted for production. I didn't want that, I wanted a machine with as fluent setup for a new design as possible. So I built one, and it is now available as a DIY kit atwww.liteplacer.com.QuoteAgreed fully, but on the other hand:QuoteThe needs for production and for development are different (and then, there are different levels of production and businesses). My machine is slow, only about 500 parts/hour. Not that good for production, especially when there are no feeders (at least yet). Still, it beats taking the design to an assembly house, which would take much more time and effort than doing boards in-house. For development, simple, fast and affordable can be just fine. I don't think many of my development tools would cut it on a factory floor. Of course, some companies will do small scale production in-house using before scales grow, and use non-production level equipment in the process, just like factories have different machines for different volumes. My machine is no exception; I built it for developers, but there are companies doing small scale production with it.And in some cases, it is about affordability: Yes, $20k machine would be the right choice, but if you don't have $20k, a $2k setup can be much better than nothing. So, I would claim that there is place for all levels of equipment, be it power supplies, oscilloscopes or p&p machines. (Fyi, the LitePlacer p&p kit costs $1299).

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 06:24:20 pm
content: Quote from: JuKu on November 20, 2015, 11:32:09 amHats off to your project! I was 'lucky' to accidentally find the machine that I got, but was seconds away from buying your Liteplacer for all the reasons your mention. One of my biggest stumbling blocks was to get through the first 20-25 PCB's. I hand placed them all but at great mental expense. Speed was not the solution, what was needed was precision, consistency, and ease of use. The Liteplace seems to achieve all of that for a VERY reasonable cost. My Quad with the PPM upgrades had a huge learning curve, but now that I know it, it is great for prototyping for sure. Side note, I hand placed >60,000 parts in the last year as part of prototyping and pilot run of my product. I did not do it solely because of cost either. Every 10 board sets I would make changes and spin another version. It was not practical time-wise to have an assembler do it since I needed a completed board a few hours after the PCB arrived at my door. The design is now what I wanted, and volume production is eminent, the Liteplace would have saved me huge amounts of time getting to this point. The P&P I have was no help because it took 7 months to gt it up and running (I purchased a known broken machine to be fixed up).For those that don't know, here is a reference on cost. Liteplacer is $1299 for the kit, The joystick controller on my used machine is $1800 all by itself. Each feeder (one for each type of component) is $400-$650. I cannot speak to the business end of the effort, but on the customer side, $1299 is a great way to get your feet wet starting a new/small electronics biz.

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 10:01:29 pm
content: I see the Neoden people have launched a version with visionhttp://www.neodentech.eu/contents/en-uk/d8_NEODEN4.htmlPotentially a gap filler for some, depending on how well it performs naturally. Not much in the way of detail up there as yet.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 11:58:42 pm
content: @JuKuCan Liteplacer do double sided boards? Is a special jig for that to hold the board?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2015, 01:39:15 am
content: Quote from: Bud on November 20, 2015, 11:58:42 pmI made these PCB pallets to do double sided assembly. They work with any shape and are very repeatable, which is good for P&P. The pallet holder can be made to nearly any size.Empty palletSupports and clamps can be fitted anywhere on the grid.These PCB's are small so I put two in there. After this side is done, I just flip them over and move the clamps/supports. I made 4 sets so that I can have 2 of each side - printing and loading the pallet while the P&P is placing on another. So far so good.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 07:34:08 am
content: Quote from: ajb on November 13, 2015, 09:19:19 pmConsumers such as super rich celebrities like Justin Beiber, Kylie Minogue, or Nicole Kidman might own their own PNP machine. You never know, any of these fabulously rich celebrities might lead a double life and be closet electronic circuit developers. Even Her Majesty the Queen of England, being a massive consumer of all things fine, could have her own Juki automated placement machines that summons her feeders on command. For all we know, any of these celebrities might even be regulars to this forum under a pseudonym.But for us consumers who earn a living, there is definitely a market need for a low cost and effective PNP machine. Such a machine does not exist as yet to my knowledge so it provides an opportunity for the innovative among us to create one. I know a bloke who does prototypes using a manual "Etch-a-Sketch" type parallelogram mechanism to populate boards with great accuracy. It does him well. No problems with 0402's. But it cost several thousand dollars. Something similar at a much lower cost of say $300 to $500 is what is needed for home use. Like the Vision Mantis, it has to be designed to minimize fatigue on the operator, be robust and it should place even 0402's quickly and accurately using the Armstrong method.It might be time for some innovative person in the West to design such a mechanism with high accuracy. Perhaps piggy back off a low end, high volume, consumer 3D printer XYZ mechanism?

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 07:16:14 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on November 20, 2015, 11:58:42 pmYes, it can. It doesn't dispense glue, so you design the board so, that the bottom side has only passives and other light parts. First, you place and solder the bottom side. Then you support the board for top side placement. There is no jig for this; any way to support the board will do, the system can automatically measure the placement height. The bottom side components will stay attached by the surface tension of the molten solder and most components will tolerate two reflow cycles (you will know if you are using one that doesn't). (Btw, this is the way you want to do it in a factory too.)