Designated "Expert" Forum Users? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 03:45:38 am
content: A forum user brought this up and I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea.Essentially, people could nominate and/or vote on who are known "Experts" in a particular field and give them an "Expert" designator tag. e.g. Analog Expert, Acoustics Expert etc.This could potentially help newbies or generally just anyone asking a question to perhaps be more confident in a technical answer if it comes from a designated "Expert" in that field. Help weed out the weat from the chaff so to speak.I think it's an interesting idea in principle.It's possible in the SMF forum software to have additional categories that where members can be allocated into groups which shows up under their username, just like we currently have for Frequent Contributor, Supporter etc.Of course the posible problems are obvious:1) It could be seen as an "appeal to authority" which is not how science/engineering is supposed to work. The best technical argument is supposed to "win".2) Being an expert in one area does not make you an expert in another area, and that's certainly the case when it comes down to something that it's just personal opinion. So maybe some avenue for possible abuse here? Although if it's just a label and the Expert was given no extra moderator power in the forum then maybe that's moot. But I could imagine some getting the label and then it going to their head somehow.3) It could lead to infighting about who gets the tag, "they aren't worthy of it any more, see this post" etc.You probably couldn't have just "Expert" on it's own of course, that's kind meaningless, it would have to specific like "Analog Expert" etc.Anyway, thoughts please...

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 04:16:58 am
content: I can see a lot of fighting on what constitutes "an expert". Many things have multiple fundamental approaches (scientific rigor vs engineering winging it). Both are valid in some cases, and an a theoretical expert's opinion may override a more practical approach for a given situation.I see it going better the other way - marking people that just rant and don't contribute anything of substance or conspiracy nuts. It is a less positive "badge", so exposing it publicly may be controversial too.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 04:30:12 am
content: Where's the "I like it, but only if I can be one" choice?More seriously, I usually pay less attention to who posted something, than what they posted. From that perspective, emphasising the former wouldn't be a good idea.(I think you're missing a "not" in your second problem.)

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 04:32:57 am
content: Hmm. Generally I don't feel very easy about it.Some random thoughts. Note that this is not a thought-out analysis, but just some things that immediately come to mind.Who decides who is 'expert' or not? If the expertise is narrow enough there may not even be anyone else around who has sufficient relevant expertise to act as a confirmatory "Yup, he's an expert" or a "Nope, he's a fool".There's a little too much possibility for self-promotion here too. An observation I've made is that anyone who chooses a user name that includes words like "export", "wizard", "master", academic titles, and other such like terms is usually (but not infallibly always) a walking talking example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.i.e.Knows enough to be dangerous and over-confident in their own abilities, but actually has at best half a clue. So self nomination is right out in my book.But if people are nominated by others then there's a risk that they may not want that nomination. That would need handling carefully to avoid all round embarrassment.Also it could push a lot of work in the direction of nominated 'experts'. I don't think I particularly stand out from the crowd as one of the 'go to' guys but I already get the odd PM out of the blue from other forum users along the lines of "I saw you'd written several times about X and I've got a related problem Y, can you help". Generally if I can I do, but the requests are few and far between. Now if, god forbid, I got the tag of "Go to man for turbo-encabulator expertise" I can imagine that the PMs might flow thick and fast. It needs some thought about how to handle this to prevent people ending up with a part-time unpaid consultancy gig. It's one thing to chirp up in a topic if you're in the mood and have useful expertise to impart, and if you're not in the mood you can just pass. It's not quite so easy if you've got a personal appeal for help sitting in your PMs.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 04:35:21 am
content: An another issue would be karma farming that a lot of people can't resist for some reason. It risks to turn into stack overflow situation.I personally don't want to be in any special groups like this.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 04:38:52 am
content: I hang out on a non-technical forum where members can give other members up-votes or down-votes. I think I have only up-votes there (because that's the kind of person I am!) but I still don't like it. When politics or other opinions run hot the votes end up showing who is "in the club" and who is out. Perhaps on this engineering forum this wouldn't be as much of a problem, but in any case I don't think the "expert" status is needed. This is a public-access forum, anybody asking questions here should know that, and from what I've seen any "wrong" information gets corrected (or at least well-discussed) pretty quickly.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 04:40:34 am
content: Whoo. Gee. Can of worms.In the old days it was thought, on early forums, that those with ridiculously high post counts were the experts. Of course we know better now.I don't understand what is wrong with the existing Thanked User system here. The first one to answer with the nearest solution is marked by consensus.What I've seen in the past with novices who do search before posting is sometimes they wanted to hear answers from others and not a loudmouth who might be dominating every thread with their BS.I think it comes back to learning the art of asking the question in a certain way and then being able to self moderate the thread a bit.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 04:43:25 am
content: Can we give treez a special title instead?

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 04:48:12 am
content: Maybe I misunderstand but I thought that was what the moderators were for nominated to a board/subject of their expertise.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 04:55:52 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on February 15, 2022, 04:48:12 amThis is a side-effect of the problem posed. How do you assign people to topics without giving them the super mod powers?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 04:58:08 am
content: Quote from: amyk on February 15, 2022, 04:30:12 amThat's what I do in most cases too. I guess it's more for newbies who get a whole bunch of responses and don't have the technical ability to judge each post on its technical merits.Although we do have the Thanks system for posts.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 04:58:52 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on February 15, 2022, 04:48:12 amWe don't moderate technical content here.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 05:02:58 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 15, 2022, 04:40:34 amIt's used a bit but I guess not often enough to be really useful. No one looks every beginner thread and gives a rate unlike say StackExchange.Maybe it's just not possible on a chat forum based system to solve this, it's just the wrong platform to even try? Horses for courses so to speak. Stack Exchange will always do it way better?

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 05:07:01 am
content: Like @Ed.Kloonk said, the Thanks system usually indicates a valid answer to a question or solution, or a more valuable contribution.Anyway, I have been here long enough to know who here is an authority on a certain discipline and who the far less knowledgeable are.I am pretty good at being able to see the wood for the treez…

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 05:08:53 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on February 15, 2022, 04:38:52 amWay back we trialed a rating system of some sort here (thumbs up/down was it?), but IIRC it was abused with people just voting down people they didn't like. I think we did a poll and the majorty voted to remove it in favour of a simple Thanks system.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 05:09:58 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 15, 2022, 04:35:21 amWhat's the "stack overflow situation"?

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 05:10:58 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2022, 05:02:58 amI wanted to suggest stack exchange. But here's the rub. I have started to ask here instead SE because of the rabbit hole effect. Over on unix.SE, once the question is technically answered, any further dialogue is nixxed.WRT thanking users, I wish more people would try and thank the one good answer in a sort of drive-by thanking without feeling the need to contribute further. Takes a second to hit the button.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 05:12:42 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 15, 2022, 05:10:58 amMaybe it could be renamed to something else? like Valuable?e.g. "The following users thought this post was Valuable"

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 05:14:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2022, 05:09:58 amPeople are fighting for upvotes and begging OPs to accept their solution as correct. And all for fake internet points. It is pathetic.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 05:18:14 am
content: I see, so it is based on a level of trust between the members that have voted for someone.I think I have seen other boards do that before and one I recall even had an "enthusiasts" title.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 05:18:45 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2022, 05:12:42 amIt's all getting too close to "Ed.Kloonk likes this". Makes some peeps run for the hills.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 05:21:06 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2022, 04:58:08 amI don't see too much of newbies getting bad or conflicting advice as I think most people are a bit careful about that sort of thing. Of course there are vigorous, um, 'debates' about some topics, but I don't think the quality of help provided for real-world problems would be improved beyond what self-regulation has done so far. As for who is a qualified expert, that's not easy to sort out--I might know the exact answer to a repair question because I just solved it on my bench yesterday, but then I've no clue on a very similar issue that I haven't seen before--but someone else has.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 05:21:08 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 15, 2022, 05:18:45 amIt already is "likes". For that exact reason I have thanks buttons here adblocked.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 05:24:09 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on February 15, 2022, 05:18:14 amThe titles such as that are bestowed often automaticity once you reach a certain number of posts.Big forums like Ubuntu used to (still do?) dabble it it. It is a symptom of the sheer volume of users asking questions and the need to address so many users.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 05:27:01 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 15, 2022, 05:14:32 amThe way some people go about it, obvious neophytes, it looks like they want a "I got seven zillion points on Stackexchange" badge to put on their CV/Resume.Every forum that sets up some kind of rewards system, even if just points or upvotes, seems to acquire people who rush around answering everything, whether it's actually helpful or not. There's one Eevblog forum participant who rarely comments here, yet on one of the 'other' EE forums they seem to make every third post and have a gazillion 'points'. The drive for engagement produces really, really poor quality posts.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 05:28:00 am
content: I would tend to avoid it. I was heavily involved in a related system at a large corporation. All of the social issues mentioned above and many more regularly and prominently occurred. While the system had positive aspects administering it required a great deal of effort (and provided more opportunities for abuse). I suspect the admin istraters here already have plenty to do

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 05:28:04 am
content: I should point out another thing we found in the early Linux forums is that if you do present yourself as a aficionado of a topic, you better be prepared for dealing with the direct messaging from the frustrated.

author: Algoma
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 05:39:27 am
content: Perhaps a user selectable profile tag that adds a line to their Contributor status, to indicate their general preferred area of skill. First tag is unlocked with Regular Contributor Status.Receiving a specified number of THANKS allows unlocking additional profile tags, or other unique contributor status to indicate their helpful community involvement.. Let users set their own contributor status, a unique perk unlocked through involvement and helpfulness.Edit: Such feature is already basically available as Personal Text in the user profile.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 06:14:07 am
content: Sounds like a lot of work and drama for the mods and negligable benefit. Why are you asking for extra work? I hope everything is alright.If you want to improve the 'thanks' system currently in use, it'd be nice to add the ability to thank from my phone. I don't see it in the list of post actions.Auto subscribe could also bring some more activity if that's what you're after. I sometimes forget to check the box and miss the follow up.As far as helping the new members figure out who to listen to, that's a tough one. Some times everyone is right but they differ in complexity. Some people like over-engineering everything and sharing as much knowledge as possible. Others like efficiency and solving problems as fast as possible.Some users want quick answers, others want details. When someone is new, the complex answers risk scaring them off. Quick solutions might leave them wanting more but they can always ask more questions.If you really want to make more work for yourself, maybe some way for users to cast separate votes on posts for accuracy, thuroughness, and efficiency could help people decide which post to follow. Risks cluttering things up though. Another option would be to encourage OPs to enter their desired complexity. They could say if they want a quick fix or a free master class.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 06:24:21 am
content: All such regalia just diminish the value of this forum, which is free flowing natural conversations.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 07:01:06 am
content: It's not a bad idea, but much of the crux lies in who gets to decide who's expert.I'm not sure it matters if you're only labelled an expert in a single field or not. I'd say that if you've rode the Dunning-Kruger rollercoaster once, you're probably able to refrain yourself from dispensing advise from Mt. Stupid the next time around...

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 07:02:45 am
content: How about instead of expert, professional. That is to say, someone who actually works every day in a particular discipline vs someone who plays around at home. Not that that's an infallible guide to competence of course.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 07:14:21 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on February 15, 2022, 07:02:45 amIf you have to have a rating, you could do better than "professional". Take me, for example. I used to work every day as an EE, but have been retired for over 20 years (I retired quite early). So now I play around at home. I'm still better at it than some currently-employed engineers.Again, I vote against the "expert" ranking. It's unnecessary and likely to cause problems.

author: bill_c
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 07:20:10 am
content: I don't like it. But if you feel you must, maybe give "greybeard badges" for specific areas of competence. Only those who are expert like, good at explaining detail, and good at keeping it on topic, are worthy of such badge. And better yet, only show the badges in the "newbies" sections.To a newbie, the explaining and keeping on topic parts are more important than being a certified expert in xyz, as long as the info is correct 99% of the time. I see many cases where a simple question has N pages of replies, N-0.5 of those pages are debating the 1%. While technically that 1% can be super important in some cases and its good to know that it sometimes matters, a newbie will be confused with all the debate.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 07:28:20 am
content: I like the idea of it, however i am unsure of the actual implementation.There has to be some way of determining what user gets a tag, so either the moderation team hands them out or the community has to vote someone into it.Then there is the tenancy for some users to put a disproportionate amount of value on virtual internet points and might treat these tags as achievements. For example the popular IM platform Discord at one point introduced applications for bot developer status where they would get access to the bot API. The approved accounts would also get a bot developer badge on there user profile. The result of this is that the Discord support team got swarmed with bot developer applications from people who never intended to actually use the bot API but just wanted the shiny new badge visible on there user profile. As a result Discord stopped giving the badges while left with a dilemma what to do with the already given out badges. People who have the badge would be upset if they take them away, on the other hand letting them keep the badge would make the badge even more valuable as it is no longer possible to get this badge. Some people even sell discord accounts with rare special usernames or badges. People care a lot about there appearance on the internet.To be honest i am not even sure what tag i should have if this was implemented. I am a pretty knowledgeable long time forum user, but i couldn't pin down any particular area where i am really really good at. I have done a lot with analog, digital, programing etc.. but at what point is someone deemed an expert.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 08:54:38 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2022, 05:02:58 amThe problem may remain, not every thread will get an answer from a designated expert and thenI'm not on SE but it is my understanding that their continue to feed their "experts" more and more badges and internet points to keep that carrot dangling in front of them

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:12:39 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2022, 05:08:53 amThe majority of those who responded is still a miniscule proportion of forum members. Most polls I've observed here are unrepresentative due to the self selecting nature of the respondents.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:15:59 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on February 15, 2022, 04:48:12 amHa Ha. The moderators are here to sort the chaff from other chaff.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:18:39 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2022, 03:45:38 amstackoverflow/stackexchangeforum(s) does that with an alternative approach which IMHO functions very well when searching answers for particular recurrent issues...The FORUM RATESANSWERS.... instead of particular egos...answers are voted and achieves a "mark" which otherwise function as a very good directive...Itshould beapproximately the same thing where users with a high number of collected marks are obviously rated better....better than egos.2 cents.Paul

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:36:09 am
content: Fair, right/correct identification of Experts and proper implementation won't be possible although it's an admirable pursuit.Another point to consider is marking members as Experts will flood their inbox with requests for help, something that for the good of the forum should only happen on the forum !How an Expert might manage such an influx of pleas for help is of course their own business however also consider this has the potential to have them leave or be less active on the forum.Sure there are massively tall poppies in their chosen fields here there are also some that post rarely that are certainly world leading experts in their fields. Each year we gain more but until they become very well known or you engage with them privately you'd have absolutely no idea of their technical ability.Some are retired or near to and desire to pass on their knowledge yet others like Tim (T3sl4co1l), so young yet so knowledgeable go to great lengths in his posts providing detailed discussion to explore and instigate deep thought.My list would present a good number but T3sl4co1l would be #1 for his contributions to other members.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:40:25 am
content: I would have considered members such as Mikeselectricstuff, free_electron and Hamster_nz to give consistently well considered answers on a variety of topics. To me they are quite expert. One way to pick the "experts" is to note their lack of participation in the frequent forum bun-fights. And I'm quite sure others exist in good numbers who participate in discussions in topics of less interest to me.It's not hard to pick who is worth listening to after a while. No-one needs to be labeled.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 10:13:10 am
content: I don't think this is fair.I'm an EE in my paid job and specialist in a certain area. I'm not paid to post on this forum. I'm just here for my hobby, which is another area that I can't consider myself a professional expert in.If you bring up titles and professions here, it sounds like this is becoming some sort of professional support forum. What would the companies that you work for think about that? Feels awkward to me. If you are self-employed (or unemployed or retired) it is probably different.Then it is another thing that the Internet has no lack of armchair-experts...

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 10:53:35 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2022, 03:45:38 amPlease don't do that. In my experience, it has ruined every forum that has adopted such practices. Look at All About Circuits (AAC). It used to have no rep in distinct contrast to ElectroTech Online (ETO), which not only had rep, but the amount of rep received was proportional to the amount of rep the giver had. Anyone remember ETO's green and red squares?New ownership at AAC decided to add rep. It went downhill from there in terms of quality. At AAC, it's become a comedy contest. Those with the most "likes" (excepting moderators) post YT videos, FB cartoons, and are just plain silly. The number of likes has absolutely nothing to do with content. AAC even gives trophies . Yuck. One of the moderators, who was obviously aware of the demise of content and had experience at ETO, suggested adding a rule that only the original poster could give rep for responses in a thread. That might have helped, but was rejected. That was years ago.ETO eventually stopped that original nonsense, which had become more destructive than helpful. There even seemed to be competitions to give a new poster the most red squares. After new ownership woke up, it doesn't even put rep ratings under a user's name in posts. Still, most "positive" ratings are for sarcasm, insults, and comedy.Stackexchange has something similar to what is being suggested here where merit is judged by certain anointed members. That system has resulted in some very good and contributory members leaving. As an unintended consequence, the up/down grading of responses can even be hilarious. How will the judges be appointed? What difference will it make? Most important, will the risk of damage offset the advantages?EDAboard has/had a very complex system of rep. Moderators had a lot of control. In practice, it was no better than any of the others and allowed moderators to go unbridled. Edaboard is now owned by the same group that owns ETO (or at least was). It seems also to have gone downhill.Personally, I like the status quo here (EEVBlog).You have the ability to thank someone without filling up space with an otherwise empty response. Thanks are not emphasized. That is, you have to go to a posters profile to see them. I do like "thank" rather than "like."Most of all, please do not allow negative rep. That is more destructive than email fights.EDIT: In no way is that comment meant to reflect on the moderators involved in those forums. I won't mention any names, but each of those forums has some superb moderators who always try to help posters. It is testament to their patience that they continue to work as hard as they do.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 11:14:54 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2022, 03:45:38 am- I find that one, nominating experts, one of the worsts ideas.- Any explanation that starts with a filling/emphasizing word, like "Essentially", to me is an alarm indicator, but maybe I'm too paranoiac and here is not the a case of mind conditioning.- The most important counter argument is thatscience does not work by voting. Science is not a democracy, and it is not about what people like or what people think. Science and its derivatives, like engineering, are independent of crowd's belief.Not everything can be voted upon. Voting is about the power of many taking over everything else, including taking over correctness or truth simply by numbers, and completely disconnected from reality. There is an old saying explaining why that is bad: "A million flies can't be wrong, eat shit."The propaganda must be terrifyingly intense these days if people are now starting to think we should vote for everything, including scientific truth, or even engineering truth.This is to me an example of brainwashing, just like any cult is completely mind-condition its followers into believing even the most absurd claims. Keep in mind brainwashing can be intended or unintended. No matter how it came to be, nobody is immune to it, including myself. This is not about being gullible. Even the smartest people can be changed.Oh, and all the above is not about you Dave, I'm a big admirer of your work and achievements. It's about our world today. Internet made the repetition possible very cheaply. We, as humans, were not ready for such a sudden non stop exposure to connectivity.It's about an issue happening as we speak, IMO. I don't know if it's happening by itself or as a driven attack, but to me it is clear that it's destroying the western world and it's values.------------------------This is how I think it works, told as a tale about training neural networks, where the neural network is the human brain. Our minds keeps changing/learning/adapting to whatever we are exposed, whether we want it or not. This feature of continuous learning (that can not be controlled by our own will) could also turn us into brainwashed zombies.If people are repeated the same thing over and over, no matter if that thing is good or bad, people will start obsessing about it, and will eventually start acting as if it were true, and turn it into "social norm", or a "social fact". (See for example religion).It's like in the old saying "Anything repeated 1000 times becomes truth". Could be a screaming lie, doesn't matter, still works, the lie will be believed in the end as a true fact. But I'd like to rephrase that in terms of neural networks (NN).A neural network is carved by the predominant signals it is exposed to.Sometimes called NN training, sometimes propaganda, or mind conditioning, or even brainwashing when the training is brutal and meant to kill the existing NN paths in order to replace them with some other desired drone behavior.The only way to resist brainwashing and propaganda is to avoid its repetition and patterns. Even when fully aware, nobody can stay exposed to brainwashing and remain the same, or escape being annihilated. The only way to cope is to not get exposed. Either kill the brainwashing signal, or shield from it.Same dog can be trained to guide, or to kill. Reality is irrelevant. Truth is irrelevant. Unless it strikes one dead in an instant. But usually it takes time until the reality and the truth catch up with the neural network mis-training. Meanwhile bad things and suffering may happen.------------------------TL;DR=====One can only vote for the laws of our society, but can not vote for the laws of physics, therefore voted "experts" is a bad idea.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 12:09:20 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on February 15, 2022, 11:14:54 amThat would be funny if science would resolve itself by voting....however.. some esoteric religions already had god nomination polls...Paul

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 12:26:06 pm
content: There are natural laws of social interactions that can't be meaningfully changed by voting either, but what was the topic supposed to be?Voting by members is a trainwreck. There exists a whole social media site built around the concept of voting on every single post and it's a hive mind where popular or simply novel and somewhat plausible ideas get upvoted regardless of their factual correctness. (More accurately, it hosts a number of sub-hives which sometimes spit on each other, but hardly differ in their nature). Certain clones of that site that claim to be better are only better to the extent of having a narrower and more specialized audience whereslightlyless BS could fly uncontested, although countering already upvoted BS is still a bit of an uphill battle.Voting who gets an expert badge? Not sure how that could work. Do I get a vote too?I suppose Dave could curate a list, but it's extra work for him and I'm sure there will still be some occasional "democrats" unhappy with his choices and demanding that he listens to the Voice Of The People (them specifically, and a few who agree with them).And speaking of analog experts, who would actually get this title? There doesn't seem to be much analog going on on this forum in the first place. Some PSU here, a dummy load there. The most likely candidates to my eye are mostly voltnuts rarely seen outside their own playground section.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 12:35:36 pm
content: My instinct is, I like it, but,it won't matter.Ain't no one gives a shit who you are on the internet, and that's pretty plain to see in most  disagreements here.Quote from: Cerebus on February 15, 2022, 04:32:57 amI should probably put that below my avatar as well, huh? (Or perhaps, apologize (in part) for your having to make that parenthetic exception.)Quote from: Circlotron on February 15, 2022, 07:02:45 amInteresting, but there are plenty of amateurs more capable than the average professional. Technically, it's just whether you get paid for it or not. I think to really make it valuable, it would have to be fleshed out much more: okay you're "professional" so what, that means you get paid, that means you're advertising that and want to get paid -- it could be fleshed out into a "professionals for hire" section where, in short, work-wanted profiles might be posted. Which would be interesting enough, probably something of modest value for the participants -- and Dave can decide what tradeoffs should be with respect to forum readability / not spammy-ility and what value to charge for such advertisement if any. I don't know that it would really be all that important overall? A fair number of professionals do read this forum, but very few that are shopping for labor. (I will note, I have received a handful of leads over the years through this account, so it's been a net positive, professionally speaking; if hardly anything to stake my livelihood on. In return -- at least, I'd like to think so, and if I do say so myself -- the quality of posts here has materially increased from my participation, a win-win situation.)A related angle, might be allowing a donation button on user profiles, for those that opt in; merely pushing a "thanks" button is one thing, but if you want actual meaningful answers, put your money where your mouth is, right?This probably has all sorts of financial as well as practical (forum integration) issues, though...Disclaimer: I mean, look at my post count, obviously additions like the above are likely to benefit me.Tim

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 12:47:59 pm
content: "Maybe". I would say it could be implemented but it risks becoming a competition rather than a mark of genuine expertise in a field.Quite happy with the status quo, and add that the 'Thanks' system is quite a good way of doing things as it stands.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 01:10:38 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on February 15, 2022, 12:09:20 pmActually it kind of is. Science is truth by consensus.Which circles back to my view that a system where people are labelled as expert on a forum leads to opinions getting more weight added to them. But who is going to guarantee that these opinions are 'right'? Also, some people are better (like politicians) at phrasing their opinions than others.The way I see it, a forum is a place where you go looking for informed opinions on a subject and share information to have debates. If you look for information, find literature (Wikipedia is often a good place to start) and read that.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 01:36:31 pm
content: Worth giving this a little run again...

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 01:44:16 pm
content: I understand the desire to do this. People are wrong on the Internet! Who do you trust? Especially in the beginner section, people who try to be helpful but have no idea whatsoever make more harm than good by coming up with total BS replies; they mean no harm of course (think Capernicus as an example).But, the current system where everyone has the equal chances to make a well justified reply, works out really well. It puts the emphasis on the quality of the answer itself, and people are not stupid; they can see what replies are well formed and contain most information. If it all plays out logically, then it's likely a correct answer, and even if it isn't, it will trigger further corrections.If you give "Expert" status for some, it really does not help those who actually are capable of giving good expert answers already, as their replies already speak for themselves. But it leaves a lot of room for unnecessary social games, and lowers the bar of the actual information quality, as it doesn't need to stand out on its own anymore, in worst case becoming secondary.

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 02:00:26 pm
content: Though I've ticked "I like it" - "it" for me would have a low-ish "expert" bar.What I envisage is thateevblog (or just Dave)sets an online examination - if you submit to the process and pass you get a rosette by your avatar.When something "technical" comes up, and the answers/comments are read, the rosette may give a reassuring indication that the proponent has some credential to give a useful answer.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 02:20:03 pm
content: Please avoid using the "experting" of some users.Even though one is not an expert (or marked-as-expert) in certain topic, he still may give a very precise and expert suggestions and answers. By "experting" others, you may then discourae non-expert-marked individuals to post their answers and suggestions. And, it will not help receiving better answers anyway.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 04:06:29 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 15, 2022, 12:35:36 pmHa! No, I was thinking that I can name one exception to the rule who has 'master' in their handle but who isn't a total dimwit/dweeb/fantacist (except with relation to my jokes, they go straight over his head). As a corollary, people who name themselves after their favourite part or part number generally seem to be among the more level headed. (Do you want me to make a parenthetical exception here?)

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 04:11:34 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on February 15, 2022, 07:01:06 am"Dispensing advice from Mt. Stupid". That is the best interpretation of Dunning-Kruger that I have seen. Thanks. Sometimes I get frustrated when people do this but now I will have an image in my head of them yodeling on Mt. Stupid and I will chuckle.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 04:59:44 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2022, 03:45:38 amI see this particular forum, as being a hobbyist, fun with electronics, but especially INFORMAL forum. Where many electronics people (as well as pure hobbyists) hang out.Implementing the TITLES system, would in my mind change thepersonalityof the forum. It could then end up falling between two stools. Too unprofessional to count as an official source and yet too formal, for people to leave casual/quick answers.If someone needsprofessional electronicsinternet places, they already exist. I see this forum, as being a sort of half-way house between such places (but the professional ones can be too formal, difficult, inflexible, on-topic-only), and forums, where complete mayhem seems to exist (at least in some areas of such places, e.g. Open Political Discussions).

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 05:41:57 pm
content: From the Topic OP's point of view, once an Expert replies to his query, the subject is closed. Who will give a better response? Auto close the thread?From other respondents' point of view, once an Expert replies there is no reason to add content. The Expert solution is now known. All other solutions are of lesser value.We could save all the titles and troubles by just limiting replies to Experts and skip over all the enthusiasts.I left a forum where I had participated for many years when they changed the board to include the concept of "Trophy Points" and "Trophies" for the number of replies and, I believe, Likes. That seemed rather juvenile for a very serious forum so I bailed. I'm not in the business of gathering up trophies.No, I'm not a fan of the Expert concept but it would shorten up a lot of threads. Maybe that's a good thing, probably not.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 06:32:31 pm
content: I may look at a member's footer, see what they say, do some of my own research of my own to form my own conclusions and trust them that way.I see many experts for all sorts of things on this board especially what they put on their footers.What I wouldn't like to find are arguments between such people on who insists they are always right based on some nomination alone but Iam sureexpect they'll know better than that.I was thinking what about having such people on a call in basis but then that might devalue other members here.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 06:34:29 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 15, 2022, 05:41:57 pmDefinitely not a good thing. The OP is not the only audience for a thread. I, for one, appreciate the follow-on questions, alternate approaches, and technical digressions that come from an extended discussion. The thread dies when people are no longer interested in it. This is a big reason why I hang out here, rather than on Stack Exchange. EEVblog Forum is where we go for a good technical discussion, not to rack up ego-points.FWFW, I still visit Stack Exchange when I have a specific programming or HDL question. I do a Google search, and if Stack Exchange pops up I check it out. But I have stopped actively answering questions there.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 06:35:35 pm
content: I agree with pretty much all points made by Dave, in particular this one:QuoteWell, almost. Except that in many threads, there *isn't* just one answer that "wins". That's not how science works either, and engineering even less so. In many cases, there's a bunch of equally valid answers, given from different perspectives/requirements/constraints/... That's what makes a discussion "rich", but is also the only reasonable way of dealing with forum topics IMHO, as the OP's questions are often subject to interpretation, so judging there is only ONE valid answer would assume that the question is 100% unambiguously understood, which is rarely the case.And then, that would just make it annoying for people not getting the 'expert' tag to answer, and that would probably drastically limit the discussions.Whoever would get to vote for the status? Following the whole logic, experts should be voted by experts. Doesn't look like it would be practical. "Lambda" people voting for the status would be way slippery (as we can see with any kind of large-scale voting): would make it likely that the "loud ones" would get more votes, just like with any other vote.Finally, that's also a bad idea in that it would give users asking questions the wrong idea about how to find information and how to learn.That's unfortunately a trend, looking for the ultimate "truth" and for information ready for "immediate consumption".If you want a taste of what it could look like, just go to Stackoverflow. If you think that's what a forum should be like, go right ahead! (But lets' not forget to make a difference between a purely independent and *free* forum, and a web site that is a commercial service with free but limited access.) So, just my 2 cents anyway.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 06:53:11 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on February 15, 2022, 06:34:29 pmI agree 100%. It's often the side bars that make a thread interesting. Separate issue: How many times are the queries so poorly formulated that nobody could give a correct answer the first time? It takes interaction to nail down the question and then collaboration to posit a solution. All of which is wiped out the instant an Expert replies.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 07:02:28 pm
content: The pattern I usually see is this curve with two peaks: a bunch of very low quality answers by people who try to be helpful, but either did not pay attention, or just don't have any idea what they are talking about. Then there are all the rest, generating a fruitful discussion with many different viewpoints, none of which is necessarily the full "truth". The good quality answers might even have inaccuracies or errors in them, but they get fixed.The risk here is, many of the "overall bullshitters" do have decent social skills. Nothing prevents them getting the "Expert" status. Now, the bullshitters struggle because their posts get corrected by others, but the "Expert" status could get in the way. What happens when the bullshitter has the "expert" status, and the corrector does not?I specifically like long but well organized posts like Nominal Animal's or T3sl4co1l's, which show excellent expertise in the subject. I'm seeing a trend that the longer the post, the easier it is to assess the quality: most very long posts are also very informative and well thought out, but those that are not, are easy to dismiss since you just automatically ignore them as reading through them seems massive waste of time.My pet peeve is when the bullshitters, who have nothing to say, get butthurt when one of the long-wall-of-text contributors extends the subject (on-topic, but drifting a bit) and start complaining still contributing nothing. Then they click "report to the moderator" button trying to manipulate moderators against the contributors. Haven't seen this anymore recently, but anyway, I cantotallysee these troublemakers going to extended lengths to gain the Expert status.So, if no voting, how else you would give that status? By number of posts? That is already visible. By number of thanks? This correlates with quality only partially. When Nominal Animal writes a super-informative post, he gets 1-3 thanks. When some poor soul has an unpopular opinion about some (maybe off-topic) matter, and someone else gives an easily agreeable counterargument, maybe some sniffy one-liner, without much actual contribution, the latter gets 10-30 thanks. Think about it. Thanking system completely mixes the "thanks for the contribution" and "thanks for being socially acceptable" types of responses.Add a voting system and tell people to use it for technical merits only? Nope, it's going to end up exactly like the thank you button.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 07:17:32 pm
content: To the few before Siwastaja: let's not lose track of what Dave's question was about.It's not some special Expert Answers delivered by the chosen few and highlighted with bold font in <blink> tags, but custom titles under the username so that a newcomer who gets two guys arguing contrary points in incomprehensible technobabble in his thread stands a chance of picking out the Good Guy.For most of the time I think this function is already provided by standard social dynamics: there is typically more than two people reading any thread, and they usually go and flame the Bad Guy together, exerting peer pressure on the OP to accept the Right Way.I think most of the time when threads end up in dead ends, nonsense or wild speculation it's not because of difficulty in knowing whom to trust, but simply from lack of any attention from anyone with experience in given area to deliver quick sensible answers and cut the BS.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 07:21:00 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 15, 2022, 05:41:57 pmNah, or, not quite. I suppose something like that would go: question-asker asks the question, thread is locked to others besides experts and OP (since OP might not provide sufficient information at first), then experts weigh in.I suppose that sort of a thing would be easy enough to implement on a forum too, experts could simply be given mod rights to the relevant subforums and that's that.That's kind of what Stack implements, users can edit their messages (and sometimes elevated users or "community" can edit others!), and add responses; and there's a comment section below each message/reply to discuss things more informally (that would be harder to emulate on an un-threaded forum).As for the value of that -- I for one would certainly welcome the discussion. It shouldn't be locked, but... maybe could stand to be a little more restrictive than it is now, but in what way exactly, I'm not sure? Anyway, for my part, I certainly don't give perfect answers, most of the time I treat a post as a prompt and begin discussing whatever comes off the top of my mind on that subject. Might be (might, he says?..) superfluous to OP; might be about a cluster of topics around, but beside the central point; might be about a cluster of topics but misrepresenting their relative importance (classic topic: the number of articles about slotting ground planes vastly outnumbers the real-world applications of the technique!). Or I might simply make errors in writing it down, or thinking about it at all, even for subjects I know well; braining is hard!So, some commentary, constructive criticism, is certainly welcome. And then, an improvement in information quality would be appreciated, I suppose. To the extent that can be easily done, anyway.And to clarify, by "restriction", it would probably be in very minor ways -- things like, needing to show the least bit of interest in the subject, responsibility for the conversation -- for example, subscribing to the thread first, and then replies are available. Or maybe it's by category or something, so you're subscribed to the subforum, or the post is tagged with subjects, and when you subscribe to those, relevant threads show up on your feed automatically; etc.For all its problems, this is perhaps one thing Stack does well -- ugly though it may be. It has, at least the impression that, if you make a careless reply, you're going to get snapped at and downvoted into oblivion, so you better make sure your information is on point. That's... a way to do that, I think.Now, to be clear, I wouldn't want this place to become Stack-like. This is, and should be, a community. Community isn't something Stack is good at, at least as far as I've seen.At best, there'd be, like... maybe aWiki or something* on the side, that's, hopefully, somewhat carefully cultivated, with rich, detailed, connected content useful in regards to common questions.*Not that exact one (because that's specifically for the resources as shown), but, more for sake of saying: we kinda already have it.But also, wikis have been tried in many places, and they rarely have sticking power. They end up neglected and unused. Something of a circular problem, there's nothing good there so no one visits, right?...The problem ultimately is, good information takes a lot of time and effort to cultivate, and without people specifically responsible for it, and vested in it, it stumbles, or falls to ruin entirely.And where Stack excels in that "market", is managing to be one of the top collections of useful resources on the net. That works great for a lot of mainstream subjects: computer science, SE where most of the time there's just a handful of things missing from, say, a successful install of le package-du-jour; even fairly informal topics like fictional writing (Worldbuilding, Scifi, even Roleplaying shows up on the sidebar often enough). The latter can probably bring more of a community discussion sort of aspect, which is interesting.On the other hand, EE seems to be a subject just... manifestly poorly suited to the same approach? I've never been impressed by the quality of questions nor answers I've seen on the EE StackExchange. (Granted, there are plenty of unimpressive questions here, too, but more curious seems to be the fact that they're all pretty similar; and, see also the EE subreddit.) I'm not sure that it's a matter of common questions coming up often enough to be worth reviewing and improving, or if there's just very little resource to do so (i.e., most of us have something better  to do? -- but then, CS/SE pays very well, and there are many excellent posts in that domain). Or maybe it's a matter of scaling, it's just not as big a community, so of course the frequency of questions, and pruning and polishing of answers, simply lacks; I don't know.So, as concerns the discussing-a-subject-and-related-topics-around-it that I am wont to do..... there you go.I hadn't contemplated much about the role and (internal) function of Stack before (and, presumably by extension, Quora and other crowdsourced information sorts of sites? -- I know even less about these, alas), so this has helped (I think?) my understanding of them. Perhaps writing this down (or thinking out loud..) has provided others with some perspective on those, and perhaps the possible role of our community in the greater internet community, those sort of things? Idunno.QuoteAnyway, going back to this, for sure, any kind of metric needs to be chosen very, very carefully. Never underestimate the psychological will tomake line go up. As soon as you make an indicator a metric, it is no longer a good metric, etc.For their part, I think (or, suspect, at least..), Slashdot, then later, Reddit and more, did a tremendous service in regards to the democratization of information. Bringing up/downvotes to the masses, brought scalable (and massive), self-curated content in return. And yes, all the problems which attend that -- it's easily gamed (karmawhores, trolls, bots), people are fickle, most just want a quick click of dopamine and on to the next post, etc. Very little critical review of posts/comments; insightful comments get downvoted to hell if they happen to be inconvenient/unpopular; uh, brigading (arguably under the general umbrella of trolls, but a different structure), the list goes on. And, best of all, it's only ever the illusion of democracy, of course; there always must be some group of mods/admins responsible for ownership and preventing abuse; and, inevitably, curating content according to their specific interests. These aren't easy problems to solve...It's fairly surprising that we still don't have many better options than the benevolent dictator... Nice when it happens, but rare indeed.Tim

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 07:29:35 pm
content: Quote from: Kasper on February 15, 2022, 04:11:34 pmJust to be clear: I didn't come up with the Mt. Stupid. I just elaborated a bit on it

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 07:30:13 pm
content: It seems a good idea at first brush, but as others have previously stated, I foresee too much opportunity for it to go off into the weeds and turn into a cluster fornication, requiring more time and effort from Dave and the other mods for policing. My vote is to keep it as it is now.-Pat

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 07:40:31 pm
content: Quote from: magic on February 15, 2022, 07:17:32 pmI doubt that is going to work. In some past cases the good guys got banned and the trolls got to stay. You are dealing with engineers here and some are quite far on the autism spectrum.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 08:05:05 pm
content: When I was a kid long ago we had numerous "Experts" to ask, we knew they were "Experts" and the answers were trustworthy. College courses were taught by the "Experts", they were also called Books. We had some other "Experts" with a known company/product affiliation, these were called Application Notes from HP, Tektronix, Fluke, LT, National, and so on, or even other "Experts" within the IEEE called "Fellows".These past "Experts" included Grey & Meyer, Horowitz, Zverev, Rabiner & Gold, Roberge, Pease, Williams, Widlar, later Lee, Razavi and so on. We knew where to go for the right answers to a particular question and we did not have Google, nor the Internet, but didn't have to sift thru eons of mis-information, BS and such.Today companies generally don't produce the quality App Notes of the past, most true "Experts" don't write textbooks anymore, so a newbie has to resort to Google and/or the Internet, and sift thru all that.Believe there are a few "Experts" here, that most would agree would provide beneficial and timely information to those newbies that request such. Know they certainly helped me when I joined a couple years ago, but had to spend countless hours/days/weeks finding who they were and sifting thru threads, so having designated "Experts" or whatever you want to call them, seems worthwhile IMO.Of course the issues of selection and whatnot are difficult, the IEEE seems to have done well with the Fellow nomination and selection process, maybe that model should be considered.Anyway, I've already paid my "dues" and know who to "listen" to and not, so reducing the suffering for newbies just might prove useful!Best,

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:23:50 pm
content: I think the whole expert designation idea is a nightmare, which would almost certainly be detrimental to the forum.Why not leave it to the recipients of advice to decide? .... The forum has a perfectly workable 'Thank' option. It ought to be possible to produce a simple thanked / total posts merit figure (probably weighted with number of posts to avoid the 100% 1 thanked out of 1 posted situation).If somebody feels it worth thanking a post from another member, then it indicates that they have been helpful / useful. Maybe gaining a high enough ratio can be interpreted as being some sort of 'Expert' if you want to see it that way.Just the view of a greybeard engineer (who has worked in several sectors).

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:33:02 pm
content: It just occurred to me. Maybe "Influencer" maybe be more appropriate?At least that plays well on Twitter and FB. (sarc.)

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:34:01 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on February 15, 2022, 09:33:02 pm

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:46:38 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 15, 2022, 07:02:28 pmOr worse, don't get corrected at all and the Expert tag pretty much guarantees that the answer is accepted as gospel.FWIW, I don't like either of the Stack (Overflow or Exchange) sites I have run across. The 'leaders' are rude and condescending, something that doesn't happen around here very often. One thing I see over and over on the Stack... sites: "This question has been answered!" Of course it was 5 years ago and doesn't show up in a search because, well, search terms don't quite match. I don't waste my time on either site.The nice thing about eevBlog is that the threads tend to wander around a bit before coalescing. The question was imprecise and several replies go by before the real question is defined. But it usually gets defined and then an appropriate answer is offered up. Peer review jumps in and someone comes up with "Did you think about...?". A few more posts go by figuring out what to do with the new constraint. But it works and, for the most part, people leave their egos elsewhere. The interactions are almost always polite.In my view, this site is just about perfect the way it is. Questions, even badly posed questions, get answered. There is usually some consensus by the end of a thread and it's up to the OP to take what they need from the interaction.It works the way it is, I hope it doesn't get broken.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:59:48 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2022, 04:58:08 amFirstly determining who is (not) worth listening to is a valuable life skill for many reasons and in many circumstances. Newbies might as well learn such discrimination ASAP.Secondly, any such system will be "gamed" in many different ways. For example, one well-known poster that has taken on a new moniker was infamous for thank evey respone - even those demonstrating why he was completely and idiotically wrong.Most importantly, real expertsknowhowlittlethey know and are unlikely to respond well to competing with those exhibiting Dunning Krueger syndrome.So, nice idea, but no. If it ain't broke, don't change it!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 10:24:17 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 15, 2022, 09:59:48 pmCompeting... Didn't (Don't) we get enough of that at work?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 10:38:29 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on February 15, 2022, 09:23:50 pmYou just found the right designation title ! Instead of Expert Lets call it Greybeard !

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 10:39:29 pm
content: Well, now we have a situation, where the same question could be answered by a professional with a degree, who has 20 years of experience, and only had a few hundred posts in the forum.Or Jimmy, who is 14, doesn't really understand what voltage is, but spent a lot of time to ramble in the offtopic section, collecting thousands of posts. For a newcomer, it's not obvious who is who.Or an actual expert, who cannot take no for an answer, and is going to go to the absolute end with their false reality, and is going to defame everyone who is in the way, just because they have some narcissistic mental disorder. I actually worked with this person, it is not pleasant.At the end, this is not a site for bug bounties, freelance help, or to post every single technical questions because you actually have no idea what you are supposed to do at your job. It's a forum.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 10:39:53 pm
content: I’ve had a lot of help from various people over the years, some obviously experts, some not so expert but have had the same problems I’m currently having, and know how to solve them.Likewise, I’m no expert but occasionally see someone post something that I can help them with.The problem I can foresee is that people may skip the non experts advice and only take notice of those deemed knowledgeable.This would stop many people bothering to try to help as they are ignored, and those really knowledgable people would effectively have a full time job just answering questions.I often learn more from a thread where two or three people have different opinions on how to do something properly than one person giving the “correct” answer.I can see the merit in thinking this is a good idea, but I don’t think it works in reality. If someone gives bad advice, it usually doesn’t take that long for those more knowledgeable in that area to point out they are wrong.TLDR:If it isn’t broke, don’t try to fix it

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 11:34:01 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 15, 2022, 09:59:48 pmYes, I was thinking this and agree.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 11:36:26 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on February 15, 2022, 09:33:02 pmSearching for a puke emoji to add to the forum...

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 11:38:04 pm
content: Anyone who feels their expertise is relevant could add it to the "Personal Text" field in their profile. Yansi, tom66, Teslacoil, etc have done that already.If someone does it who is not an expert, they can get called out. If its a legit callout, mod can edit it permanently to "doofus" or equivalent

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 12:28:51 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on February 15, 2022, 10:39:29 pmThe admins seem to disagree with you on that point!

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 12:41:51 am
content: I think rankings of any sort are unnecessary, however, often the content of posts reveals a replyers credentials. Often there are posters that seem to throw in answers that show that they did not even read the OP. Also, there are at least 10 members that seem to reply to every post, sometimes with credulous answers, sometimes not. Then there are the essay posters that write 2 or 3 pages and, well, TLDR often. All of these may get to be called experts from these types of posts.Let the content of the posts reveal the truth, and as someone said, the newbies will need to learn discrimination.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 12:49:56 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2022, 11:36:26 pm🤮Please don't, if people have to go to the trouble of learning how to input Unicode to get additional emoji to decorate their scribbles with it slows them down. Putting it on a tool bar will only encourage those who seem to need to decorate every sentence (and sometimes every few words) with emoji.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:05:44 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 15, 2022, 11:38:04 pmYep, good point.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:24:28 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on February 15, 2022, 08:05:05 pmBut this forum, isn't to be confused with a very high end University and/or gathering of top Professors. It is a place for various levels of electronics people (hobbyists, workers in the industry, and sometimes experts).So we shouldn't want/need such formalities here.Quote from: mawyatt on February 15, 2022, 08:05:05 pmBut beginners don't need help from just extreme experts. Many people can help them. Typically their questions are actually rather simple, which just about anyone (with some electronics know how/experience) can answer.Let's not see things in a very black and white ONLY kind of way. There are various levels of experience/abilities/knowledge/skills, within electronics people. If someone gets too obsessed with wanting expert only opinions, then it could mean that if they wanted their light bulb changing, they would insist on it being done, only by someone with 3 degrees, 2 masters and at least one professorship and 40 years plus experience.If we decided one person on the entire forum, is THE expert. Surely they wouldn't have the time and motivation to answer ALL the questions on this forum.EDIT: Reworded, to be more pleasant.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:50:13 am
content: For me, the bottom line is this: It's not broken, so don't fix it. I think what we have here works just fine.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:54:01 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on February 16, 2022, 02:50:13 amSometimes you don't realize how good things (the status quo), was, until it gets reduced or lost.In my experience here. When/if someone responds and has made technical mistake(s) in their answer(s). Other helpful members will typically come along, and gently (or more) nudge, the thread, with the corrected answers. I.e. The current system seems to be working quite well for most people.On the other hand, I can understand that it is much harder for a true beginner here. To sort out the good answers, from the not so good ones. So, there is at least some merit, to the 'experts' designations. Even if I think it is a bad idea, overall.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 03:26:22 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 16, 2022, 02:24:28 amI don't think the need, if there is a need, is for beginners to get answers from "extreme experts" but it would be helpful if beginners and newbies had a way of determining if their advice was coming from someone reasonably sound instead of one of the Dunning-Kruger victims. The problem is that providing help while simultaneously having to disprove the, often shouty, incorrect contributions from the Dunning-Kruger types is both quite hard, and time consuming.As I've already opined, I'm not keen on badging, or whatever, of the acknowledged 'experts', but while we're demolishing that idea it would be useful, I think, to look at whether there is a way to help newbies navigate the proffered opinions until they get enough knowledge to know when they are being bullshitted or know the personalities well enough to know who to trust and who to disregard.It might be as simple as agreeing that that we provide a bit of moral support to the sound. If someone trustworthy is offering advice and the usual muppets are muddying the waters, a reply such as "You should listen to Tim (or Tom, or Dick, or Harry) he knows what he's talking about." would be a useful pointer and certainly more productive than picking on a wrong or dubious reply and amplifying it by trying to point out the faults. I must confess that nowadays I let some egregious mistakes from certain repeat offenders slip by because I know that disagreeing with them will just produce a long, drawn-out pointless argument. Occasionally I make the effort, but it's rare now. It would however be much easier to actively bolster the good replies and I wouldn't find it hard to do that.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 03:28:45 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 16, 2022, 02:24:28 amMaybe you should go over to the IEEE and find out what the membership actually is!!! It's composed of young students, undergraduates, graduate, post grads & professors alike, everyone is welcome, no degrees required!! However, they do demand a high level of credibility in papers that get published.QuoteMy experience indicates that the best teachers are the most knowledgable in the subject matter! When a newbie is asking for help, they are often asking to learn as well, and what better way to enrich this learning experience than expert guidance.QuoteDunning-Kruger mountain effect??QuoteAnd why would we decide on THEoneexpert, now that would be a brilliant decision!!Anyway, it seems most folks are not in favor of a group of "experts" in various fields, mainly to help newbies with question/answers and some fundamental learnings.Best,

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 03:41:24 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 16, 2022, 03:26:22 amGood point(s), and I agree with you (even if I don't agree with the proposed solution in the opening point of this thread).It's very hard for me to place myself into the feet/head of these complete beginners and even some with slight experience with electronics. As I have not been in that position, for a very long time.I now know, looking back into my early days of electronics. That some/many of the projects in electronics magazines (from a long time ago), were in a number of cases. Not especially well designed. In some cases they wouldn't even work. In others, some parts of the design were, let's say questionable.But that hasn't stopped many people from progressing through their electronics hobby and/or University/similar and/or electronics career paths, with, in some cases great success.I'm not sure what the best solution is. Perhaps it is leave the forum as it is, or come up with a solution to that problem.Anyway, I'm not necessarily convinced an 'experts' detonator, is necessarily the right solution.Some websites, use a points scoring system, where answers are up-voted or down-voted. But I think (as already mentioned by other(s) ), that solution also has its many downsides. Including that thebestanswers, won't necessarily get the highest score. At least not with 100% reliability, that is.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 04:04:56 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on February 16, 2022, 03:28:45 amThanks!. I didn't know that. It shows bias and false assumptions on my part, sorry.But that is reassuring, that published papers, need high levels of credibility.My opinion is that the real expert, is testing an actual test circuit, which shows how circuits really behave, rather than what the experts, necessarily believe.I.e. Theory and Practice, are very important elements in Electronics and can disagree, sometimes in surprising ways.Quote from: mawyatt on February 16, 2022, 03:28:45 amThat is very, true. But on the other hand, all sorts of resources, are in limited supply. So, the best (most knowledgeable and experienced) electronics teachers, probably don't have the time and energy, to deal with every single electronics student/hobbyist or fellow electronics expert, in a different field.But when they have got the time and energy, and do post replies on this forum, e.g. in the beginners section. The fact that they are NOT formerly identified as being good/best/expert/great-teacher etc. Is of reasonable concern. Even if the proposed solution, seems to have various drawbacks, as mentioned by myself and others in this thread.I do get concerned myself. When I see obviously wrong, misleading or even possible safety risks, with some of the posts on this forum. But posting a counter-reply, is not always or often done, for various reasons. Some posters are known to be argumentative if you disagree with them, maybe I'm mistaken or wrong myself. Maybe it is just laziness, as more often than not, someone else will pop into the thread and correct the mistake(s).Quote from: mawyatt on February 16, 2022, 03:28:45 amThat gets tricky. Because, when I was learning more about that, a while back. It seems to turn out that it is a very often misunderstood concept. Basically, the very vast bulk of the time, the term is incorrectly applied.If I understand the term (correctly). It really is a term that applies toeveryone, novice and professional/expert alike. To varying degrees.Quote from: mawyatt on February 16, 2022, 03:28:45 amThe more I think about and discuss this. The more I feel empathy for beginners. As I said in a previous post in this thread. It is extremely difficult for me to put myself into the shoes of a complete beginner of electronics (again, a long time ago in the past, since I was a beginner). So, I could easily be completely missing the difficulties such people have, in reading the situation.Most of the people who are voting here in this thread, are both already well beyond beginner level, and also who are reasonably well experienced with being on this forum.So in some respects, it would be fairer, to get the opinions of actual beginners to this forum. See how happy or not, they are at telling the good/best answers, from the less helpful ones.

author: basinstreetdesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 05:18:57 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2022, 03:45:38 amI voted no for just those reasons given above.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 05:23:05 am
content: Quote from: tpowell1830 on February 16, 2022, 12:41:51 amAs I watch the Beginner's forum, I see that there are usually several 'correct' answers, usually from slightly different viewpoints. Now, even a beginner should realize that if a half dozen people agree, the answer is probably correct. A few outliers don't really push things very far from the proper end result.It's rare that a question receives only one response. There is something wrong with the question should this occur.Sometimes answers are iterative. The first answer almost answers the question, the second improves upon the first and so on. By the end, the result is pretty good.Other times, the question really does have multiple 'correct' answers. Consider the open-ended question "Which chip should I buy to do this?" The first respondent will tout the chip he used for that application, the second respondent posts his solution and so on. There really isn't just one answer and it would be a darn shame if the Expert posted first with the only perceived correct answer and all the alternatives were never discussed. There are always alternatives! Sometimes 'best' is based on performance, other times on price and, these days, on availability (by country). There really isn't just a single correct answer. Multiple competing answers is a blessing, not a curse.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 06:11:37 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on February 16, 2022, 03:28:45 amAnd to earn that credibility people publish same shit over and over and over again, with a few words changed. So they can put "made x publications" in their profile.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 06:39:04 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 15, 2022, 09:46:38 pmThese sites are fundamentally different. Stack Overflow/Exchange are question-answer services run by peers. EEVBlog forum is adiscussion forum. It's a nice, even desirable side effect if the OP gets a straight answer to their exact question, but it's not the primary point.For the same reason, it's OK to post about something even if something very similar was discussed 2 years ago. We get totally different viewpoints as time goes by.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 06:50:31 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 16, 2022, 02:24:28 amNo no no! Thissoundsvery agreeable and logical, but actually you are wrong!Fundamental beginner questions require pretty high level of expertise to answer. Teaching isdifficult.This is also why I have been hired, year after year, as an outside helper, on a university class where we build and measure buck converters. There are no experienced enough, free, available resources inside! Even though everyone is a total beginner, constructing their first DC/DC converter ever and driving the gate with an FG, they will, in this simple exercise, face all interesting details like gate charge plateau, low-frequency sinusoidal oscillation in DCM when the SW goes hi-Z, slowly drifting spikes on their scope screens coupled from their neighbors, etc., etc. The teacher can't say "I don't know what this is".I can totally see in the beginner section the problem caused by total crap answers by well-meaning people, who were just beginners themselves but think they are now on a bit higher beginner level and can start helping others. Or even true professionals who think helping beginners is so trivial they don't need to spend any effort on it.One professor I kinda respect did say it well, the difference between average professor and a world-class expert is, the expert actually knows the 101 basics of their field. Well enough to be able to teach it!Besides, beginner questions can be extremely difficult because they haven't learned the abstractions yet. They may ask "what is voltage on a physical level" or "how a transistor works". Things like that, most "practical engineers" struggle with.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 09:21:45 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 16, 2022, 06:39:04 amAll those points should be written large, and not forgotten!Stack exchange is OK-ish to get ananswerto "which button do I press to cause the floggle to trepusculate?" type questions, where little understanding is required.This site is popular because people can have a to-and-fro discussion about subtle topics where there are different equally valid opinions. That helps people to work out theright questionto ask -which is much more difficult than simply answering it.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 10:57:42 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 16, 2022, 06:50:31 amI agree, what I wrote there was, at least partially wrong. I had noticed an issue, when I read it back, but (incorrectly) thought it covered the wrong aspect, but it didn't adequately do that.I wanted to rewrite it, to be something like:"Most of the time (90%), an expert in the applicable field, is NOT needed to answer the question".But there are still two major issues outstanding, even with the corrected version.Firstly, a beginner, can't tell when it is the 10% of the time, when a real expert is needed. Causing practical difficulties.Secondly, if the beginner has done a really, really good job of researching the answer themselves. E.g. They triple checked the wiring for mistakes. They tried swapping some things. They did some initial googling for an answer. Etc.They can potentially increase the need for a true expert, to perhaps 80% or 90% of the time.The percentages I have stated, are extremely rough estimates, and I have no problem, with them being, even wildly wrong.In summary, I agree with you. A number of issues a beginner has, may indeed need a real expert. It wouldn't be obvious at all to the beginner, when it is a simple/quick question for anyone, including people with partial electronics knowledge/experience, and when it really needs an advanced specialist in the appropriate field(s).If/when someone reaches a very high expert/experience level in a particular field. They sometimes comment on how extremely frightening it is, with how many things are just NOT known, at the current time. E.g. Although there are solutions to many illnesses, with medicine X, being well known to usually fully treat illness Y. It is only when one learns extensively about illness Y, that it turns out, very little is actually known as to what really causes illness Y, why it causes the symptoms it does and how to properly fix illness Y, or even how/why medicine X actually works.Fortunately, much of electronics is understood. Yet if you go into extreme detail with the Physics, of what is really going on. It can move into areas of Physics, that don't really know why or how, the (e.g. Quantum) stuff actually works.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 11:14:11 am
content: How about showing number of unique users who "thanked", in particular topic.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 11:33:05 am
content: .

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 11:38:34 am
content: This has got me curious about who suggested the idea to Dave - to the extent that he felt it worth taking a sounding.Unless I've missed one, I don't think anyone in the 'I like it' vote category has posted anything yet.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 11:38:37 am
content: Interesting discussion of the “Expert” on a forum topic…..https://metatalk.metafilter.com/18297/From-the-Latin-ex-a-hasbeen-and-spurt-a-drip-under-pressureFraser

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 11:46:41 am
content: Quote from: Fraser on February 16, 2022, 11:38:37 amA good point about 'Experts' feeling under pressure to answer questions [Edit: and the associated follow-ups], whatever the time of day.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 11:51:30 am
content: I think the beginners are just fine. We are designing a solution waiting for a problem. But if it were to have ranks, I'd like to be something epic, like this:My favorite is Gimli!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 11:53:42 am
content: Quote from: emece67 on February 16, 2022, 11:33:05 amI thought that, but forgot to include it in my earlier posts. That is a good argument (in my mind), as to why this 'experts' idea, may not be suitable for this forum. Because it is NOT an official source of correct/good, highly accurate information. Unlike a Book, decent journal, datasheet, University etc.The problem/thing is. If a small percentage of us (users), are given the titleOFFICIAL EXPERT. Perhaps only in some sub-forums or topics. Such as Audi Expert, etc.Then (perhaps just speaking for myself), it would be extremely off putting, to ever reply to any thread. Because we wouldn't have (for most of us), that EXPERT label, and could easily have our answers, contradicted, when/if the actual expert label holder(s), posting in the thread.I.e. It could seriously damage the functioning of the forum. Because if lots of posters are completely put off from ever posting (answers). The forum might (at least in some respects) go downhill, fast.It is a bit like the job adverts, which put so much detailed requirements, that it is unlikely that any real person exists, who could fulfill all of them.E.g.>Have at least 30 years Electronics Expert Knowledge, working in our specialist field>Be less than 25 years old>Have at least 30 years computer/Programming experience, full time>Graduated from University, within last 5 years, so academic knowledge is still modern/useful>Never worked for any competitor, ever>Happy to work for legal minimum wage

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 12:05:26 pm
content: Put a "Thanked" counter next to the "Posts" counter.If you absolutely must do something.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 12:12:48 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on February 16, 2022, 12:05:26 pmI don't think that is a good idea; it has no statistical relevance. Either as an absolute or relative number. The more people post, the more they get thanked. On top of that there is the echo-chamber effect. Some thank when people agree even though what is written is questionable.Just see a thanks as nodding your head you agree. IIRC thanking was originally added to get rid of 'I agree posts' that added nothing to the discussion.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 12:19:00 pm
content: The basic problem is always those who are expressing themselves for what ever other reason than massages in hand.Unfortunately they also have many times the possibility and stamina to be a volume.Eventually they will also flood the place, SNR is very important but so is the mood of it.You're also always limited with only few options.Howabout a dotted line where one dot is one area and its level is being dynamic.A dot, small and big letter, underline, overstrike and bold, quite many levels.What letters, Analog, Digital, Metrology, Power, Other, AP, DM.Maybe large enough group of elders enabling/disabling those.So all it needs is a user statistics for elders view.BTW,I'm usually browsing offline and didn't mind losing one yellow square.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 12:20:21 pm
content: I thought I would add my own personal view of contributors to forum posts.There are specialists (I prefer that term to “Experts”) in a particular topic who may have very insightful comment on their specialist topic and this is to be welcomed on any forum that is fortunate enough to have such membership. That said, some specialists know their topic but are not always great at instructing or helping others in a way that may be easily understood by ‘mere mortals’. I have also met some very clever scientists who are specialists in their chosen field, BUT they lack real world experience and sometimes, even common sense ! This forum has an excellent compliment of members with specialist knowledge who are willing to help others by sharing their knowledge. We are indeed fortunateThere are forum members, such as myself, who do not consider themselves “Experts” in any particular field, even if we possess specialist knowledge of very narrow topics. I was repairing electronics at age 7 and went on to be trained as a Merchant Marine Radio Officer before joining an employer who needed my particular set of skills for land based activities. That employer provided me with a broad range of specialist skills that have enabled me to help others over a broad spectrum of topics….I do not consider myself an Expert in those topics however and do not like the term anyway ! I am a technical officer with a broad range of formally trained knowledge who is a specialist in a few, well defined, topics. So how would I be categorised under the “Expert” system ?There are forum members who are still learning and absorbing knowledge as they study in educational establishments or in work place apprenticeships. They may have questions on all manner of topics but they may equally have good, modern, knowledge of certain fields within this forums coverage. They may not be an “Expert” but they have much to contribute and should not feel that they should not because an “Expert” will answer a question. Answering questions can carry risk…. a person may be wary of providing input to a topic if they are concerned about being challenged by an “Expert”. On other forums there are some pretty obnoxious “Experts” who sometimes believe that they are Gods in their realm and cannot tolerate any alternative viewpoints. Thankfully I see no such behaviour on this forum, at least in the areas of it that I frequent. Basically, just because a person is not an expert, it does not mean that the Experts view is the only one that matters. For a newbie, it is sometimes important that a fellow newbie shares their personal experience or knowledge as that may be at a level that can be easily understood. ‘Team working’ amongst techs to solve a problem, even via a forum, can generate good questions and equally good answers along the way. If an “Expert” just gives the answer on ‘day 1’, a learning opportunity may be lost. As has been said before….it is not always the result that matters, it can be how you got there that matters most.Public forums contain a vast array of knowledge repositories in the form of its memberships brains. It is good to receive a broad spectrum of responses to a question, even if incorrect !, as discussion follows and many people learn from the original question. A good discussion will result in the best possible full answer to the question that has effectively been peer reviewed by the forum membership. Even “Experts” can be wrong sometimes ! Giving them an “Expert” badge can provide undeserved ‘never wrong’ status to some knowledgeable forum members.Then we get to the forum members who may be somewhat less helpful to those asking questions. At the least harmful level there are those who are self declared “experts” who just possess decent Google-Fu but do not possess the essential knowledge to spot when Google searches result in incorrect, or darn right misleading, information. They then present that erroneous data to a person on the forum. That recipient might take that information as from an “Expert”, so uses it without question. Not a great idea and people need to do their own checks and balances on answers provided via forums, Google searches and Wiki pages. As we know…. Just because it’s on the internet does not mean that it is true or accurate. There are also those who frequent forums who have a little knowledge and are dangerous ! They may claim “Expert” knowledge of a topic yet be misguided or malicious ….. Flat Earthers ?Thankfully such persons are normally spotted pretty quickly and may be ignored or banned, if malicious.In life there are many people with greatly varying levels of knowledge and expertise who come into our Orbits. They have much to offer and often enjoy the interaction on forums such as this great platform. It would be a pity to do anything that potentially made these forum members contributions appear less valuable than the opinion of an “Expert”.As I have alluded to earlier…. I have worked with some really clever “experts” in their particular specialist field who I would not trust to tie their own shoe laces, let alone give me any advice on a topic that did not sit dead centre of their specialist field of knowledgeThis forum is filled with members who possess “Specialist” knowledge, even if they do not have a particular Degree or Certificate to say so.I do not feel the need for an “Expert” badge system on this forum. To me it has the looks of creating an ‘Elite’ membership and is a real can of worms. Where you have an “Expert” status, there will always be the challenge of determining who gets that status and whether the Status may be challenged or revoked. A bit like being a GP or Lawyer ….. you are answerable for your mistakes and can be ‘removed’ for negligenceMe? … I know a little about a lot, and and a lot about a littleFraser

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 12:21:01 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on February 16, 2022, 12:05:26 pmAgreed on the "If you absolutely must do something".

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 12:30:48 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 15, 2022, 04:16:58 amIf we had an expert on what an expert is we wouldn't be having this problem.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 12:45:40 pm
content: If we are a free and open public electronics forum. Theneveryonemust be free to post, in all areas (with obvious exceptions, such as banned or spam posters).You can't have itbothways. Either it is casual/free/open, for anyone to post, or it isn't.Once we start having designatedexperts, or highlighted special/best posters and so on. We begin to lose our "Free and open" status.There are half-way house solutions. But they still move away from being a free and open environment.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 12:46:12 pm
content: Quote from: daqq on February 16, 2022, 12:30:48 pmSeriously though, I suspect we have very few social engineers here -- who would be best suited to anticipate the concerns and issues aired above. Social and psychological behaviors are surprisingly unintuitive and difficult to predict; even if we had come up with seemingly workable ideas, it's really hard to say how well they would work out in practice.Tim

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 12:46:40 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 15, 2022, 01:10:38 pmNo it's not. A consensus on a theory doesn't always mean it's right. The astronomer Galileo was proof of that. In the last two years, there are plenty of things which were believed to be correct, by a large number of scientists, yet are now widely contested.QuoteThe only way to establish the truth is to look at the evidence available, but that's often subject to manipulation.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 12:56:54 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 16, 2022, 12:46:40 pmI don't thinkexpertis suppose to mean that every single statement they issue is going to be 100% right, all of the time. It is just that an expert is more likely to give the correct answer, and less likely to give the wrong answer, NOT that an expert is going to give the correct answer all the time.If a company boss/owner, has made a successful company, that has grown and grown. It doesn't mean that every decision they have made was/is 100% perfect. Just that enough of them on average, were good enough to eventually make a good and successful company, and none of the mistakes were bad enough to prematurely end the company, so far.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 12:58:36 pm
content: I wonder how many of you have the stones to actually mentor someone?I have a number in my mind. I'll bet you can't change my mind.Go into the beginners section, find somebody with only a few posts and recognize that they are now where you once were and help them find the next step.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 01:08:52 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 16, 2022, 03:41:24 amWhen I was first learning electronics I was a kid, and I had several friends who were also kids with a similar interest. I can remember some of the misconceptions that we passed from one to another for lack of any useful mentors or instruction to set us right again. You see the same phenomenon with young 'gentlemen' and motor vehicles, the folk knowledge that gets passed around on vehicle performance and physics is excruciatingly wrong, and I suspect our electronicsfaux paswere just as painful to observe if you knew what you were talking about.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 01:16:41 pm
content: Until both of you can agree on such lofty philosophy, you can at least agree that you know how a transistor works or even a 555. I'm saying put your energy into helping people understand that. Fill the gaps.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 01:27:17 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on February 16, 2022, 11:14:11 amSpeaking as the 4th ranked "most thanked" user on the forum I have to tell you that would be misleading.All it tells me is that I'm not too out of step with the milieu here, and I make people laugh occasionally.If we were to use any kind of "thanked" rating it'd need a different button "Mark as useful technical answer" or somesuch as the current "thank" button serves as many things: "nod of head in agreement", "this made me laugh", "that post agrees with my political views", "that fella isn't as much of an arse as the man he's arguing with" etc. etc.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 01:29:53 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 16, 2022, 01:16:41 pmNot everyone, has the patience, inclination and other factors. To help beginners. For example, some people are happy to supply quick 1 or 2 line answers, to help them continue their experiments/learning/projects. But don't necessarily have enough patience, to put the time in, to help them further.E.g. Your electrolytic capacitor, probably exploded because you put it in the wrong way round. Please carefully check the polarity next time. Which way round they are inserted,doesmatter.Rather than a detailed technical explanation as to why electrolytic capacitors have polarities, are often used despite their many weaknesses, and tips on how to reduce the likelihood of such mistakes in future.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 01:34:16 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 16, 2022, 01:27:17 pmWhich is totally, 100% your extreme dedication to helping people on the beginners forum. And absolutely nothing to do with your participation on any other threads, whatsoever, such as theTea thread.For those that don't know. They seem to throw huge numbers of 'thanks' in that thread.Example:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg4005397/#msg4005397QuoteSo, one thank per word.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 01:38:36 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 16, 2022, 01:29:53 pmYep. I agree. So maybe we do need to elect an individual who is prepared to work the beat, so to speak.Just going by the dick waving in the thread (not you), I'm starting to think that Dave is right. The forum could use a person assigned to the task. But how do we keep the dicks out of a walled garden?

author: Carel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 01:48:27 pm
content: Wouldn't it be nice to get more feedback from topicstarters? And look how to encourage this? Without results an experts opinion is just an opinion, which it is for starters. considering the handicap of written words in other languages and the physical separation problem.A problem can have many layers and the solutions can vary from hammers to Nobel prize nomination mathematics,Personally I can't solve a problem without having a reasonable deep understanding of it, so I rarely pose a question. The moment I think: let's start a topic, I am near to a solution.I think I am afraid of the rumbling rantings of experts, who give lengthy answers, with only a narrow connection to the question.To put it sarcastically: It always amazes me how much Jumbo-jet pilots are active on the internet. They must have an incredible amount of free time.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 01:49:15 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 16, 2022, 01:38:36 pmDon't build it in the first instance.No place like this is perfect but EEVblog is generally head and shoulders above the rest of the bunch.A few years back I thought I'd better go and see what help I could be at AAC and posted some scope screenshots in a reply to help a member only to have the post vanish as mods thought it was advertising as the scopes brand was plainly visible in the screenshot.I mean how outta touch are these plonkers so I engaged with them and all of a sudden all mods were copied in and we had quite a civil conversation and of course I was open about our allegiance and the wish to primarily provide support.But even funnier was to come as they offered me a mods position which I immediately declined and explained their membership would see that as putting the fox in charge of the hen house.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 01:50:03 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 16, 2022, 01:27:17 pmUnfortunately the thanks button gets abused. I wonder how many people in the top 10 thanked users list, only got there because they made loads of replies to treez's/Faringdon's threads?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:02:41 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 16, 2022, 12:46:40 pm-off topic-And how it that not truth by consensus?Truth by consensus means that a previously proven theory is regarded as being true until someone comes along and proves (by using new/better methods and insights) it is not. That is how science works and always has worked for centuries. In hindsight it is easy to say 'look, those idiots where wrong all that time' but that is just hindsight. And then there are cases where it is better to be cautious and accept a safe theory that is not fully proven / disproven yet.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:05:12 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 16, 2022, 01:50:03 pmHow is it he's even still here ?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:10:08 pm
content: Those thanks mean nothing. I just thanked Tautech's post. But why?Was is because I liked the information in the post?Was it because I like him?Was it because I clicked the "thanks' by accident?Was it to prove that "thanks" mean nothing?Was it because of some other reason?I'm not going to say, and you cannot derive the reason either.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:10:19 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 16, 2022, 01:49:15 pmA bigger question I have for you is why aren't you in bed?No sane person accepts a mod position. I understand that.What I am proposing is perhaps an enthusiastic intermediate instead of a jaded 'expert'.I posted the 'expert' video on an earlier page for shits and giggles. I have in my professional capacity assumed nearly all of those roles and quietly chuckled to myself the whole time. I'm suggesting, as an expert, that the forum is ready to take this next step.The problem is that the chosen person needs protection from 'experts' with a bad attitude. It needs to be understood that an intermediary is there to encourage beginners and reinforce their own understanding without the fear of being publicly humiliated.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:16:52 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on February 16, 2022, 11:33:05 amYes they are, but as usual the SMF user interface is less than helpful in guiding you to find them. Summary statistics are hidden at the bottom of the forum index page, and you can see any users 'thanked' count by looking them up in the members list.You have been thanked on average 0.27 times per post whereas I have been thanked on average 0.77 times per post. That to my mind conclusively proves that any metric based around thanks is worthless because while I like to hope I'm a useful contributor from time to time I most certainlydon'tthink I'm the über contributor that statistic would seem to imply.There's also the issue you allude to but don't express directly: "Any metric once created will be gamed". Someone will play in such a way as to inflate the metric rather than to behave in the way the metric was supposed to measure positively for, wasting time trying to bolster the metric rather than doing something useful to produce the outcome the metric was intended to measure. I don't think anybody is currently gaming the thanks statistics, but if they were given prominence they would almost certainly become "gamed".If anyone needs any more convincing that "Thanks" as is currently implemented is a useless metric, here it is. This is the top 10 most thanked people, as spat out by SMFs stats. I've added number of posts and calculated a "Thanks per post" ratio as a percentage.UserThankedPostsThanks to post ratiomed67531063410178104.48%bd139104042050650.74%EEVblog86003394225.34%Cerebus7288940377.51%mnementh60451513339.95%tautech49262305921.36%james_s44041695925.97%BU508A40123803105.50%T3sl4co1l36801861019.77%tggzzz35311461124.17%Note how that puts Tim (T3sl4co1l) at the bottom of the ranking by "Thanks per post", one of the most useful contributors (arguablythemost useful) on the forum and Mounty (BU508A) at the top, who while being a sterling chap, and very generous to boot, isn't in Tim's league (Sorry Mounty). (Note, these areonlythe top 10 thanked, so the ranking on the ratio of thanks per post isonly out of these 10 posters, not the whole forum.)

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:17:11 pm
content: (didn't read all interactions here)IME badges are a terrible idea. Among other factors, the excellent linked post by Fraser reflects my experience as well:here's a sense in which knowing there's an expert in something sort of subtly reduces the value of everyone else's contributions because people wait for the expert to show up.Also, the other topics such as what constitutes an expert, how broad on the subject one could be still considered one, etc. are very valid.People give their time for free and having an added pressure of a badge can be detrimental to the contributions of someone that is unable to dedicate the proper time for full fledged answers at all times. This can be overcome in part by pre-canned answers to questions or something that AAC currently has, which are several concise articles that can easily be leveraged on their platform (I have used them myself many times to give posters some technical context and background).Also, some of the experts may simply give short replies with further questions to narrow the problem at hand - after all, it is not infrequent the number of people that ask something and simply vanish (retiredcaps and I hadan exchange about thatmany years ago).

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:21:50 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 16, 2022, 02:16:52 pmNot wishing to cherry-pick your post but we might like to see the breakdown of thanks in the beginners threads rather than entire forum.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:24:35 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 16, 2022, 12:12:48 pmTo quote Mandy Rice-Davis: "Well he [nctnico, thanked ratio 12%] would say that, wouldn't he."Cerebus [Thanked ratio 77%](Yes I am kidding, I think the thanked ratio is wildly misleading)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:26:53 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 16, 2022, 02:10:19 pmAnd you have the perfect bladder ?QuoteInstead I believe the senior and capable members could use their forum profiles to better effect. It takes just a minute to change them and display your wished online status as I do when I go on annual fishing trips with the cuz.There's no reason not to display your chosen skillset without a forum based one being foisted on you which as I have mentioned before might invite a plague of PM's seeking advice. Yes I get a few and if it gets outta hand one can easily modify your profile or signature unlike any title that you might be given.

author: Carel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:28:12 pm
content: Just to put things in a perspective:I looked it up in my statistics: 48 posts, 96 thanks, which makes me with a 200% score a very succesfull expert.With my cat photo's.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:29:30 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 16, 2022, 02:24:35 pmAs I explained in an earlier post. It seems to be because you post a picture of e.g. a broom, in the tea thread. Then get 5 thanks for it.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg3999280/#msg3999280So, the tea thread seems to have put various users into the top of the most thanked lists. Rather than the merit of being most helpful members on this forum.But of course you still could be the most helpful member here, as well.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:30:58 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on February 16, 2022, 12:21:01 pmI disagree, I think that the thanked figure is misleading and deserves to get no more prominence than it already has.And I must be right, and you wrong, because your thanked ratio is only 28% but mine is 77%.OK, I can probably stop now. I hope that I've provided enough evidence that the thanked figures are not necessarily a helpful guide.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:34:24 pm
content: Quote from: Carel on February 16, 2022, 02:28:12 pmYou winI was about to ask if anyone can beat Noopy's 116%.I see a trend here.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:36:15 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 16, 2022, 02:30:58 pmYes although they're easily found by clicking on a members profile which provides access to their thanked posts where you can further research why they were thanked. SMF makes doing your homework on a member dead easy and in my view is more useful that bestowing titles on members.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:36:24 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 16, 2022, 02:26:53 pmI piss in your general direction.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:40:40 pm
content: IMHO a system where you self declare yourself an expert would be ideal with a Badge against their name to identify them... and then I could safely ignore their comments.Actually... self declaration of expert status... sounds very 2022... the world really has gone mad.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:42:10 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 16, 2022, 02:29:30 pmHey, give a chance, I'm trying to catch up here. I wasn't going to go off on a meta analysis of why the thanked ratio is what it is, just trying to point up thatit's a useless metric as it stands, which I'd kind of hoped was obvious by using myself as a contra-example of its usefulness rather than picking on some other hapless soul and going "Look he has a high thanked ratio but he's a complete dick!".

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:44:17 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 16, 2022, 02:36:15 pmAnd today's "creepy stalker" prize goes to ...

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 02:47:36 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 16, 2022, 02:42:10 pmSorry, if I poked you.I think the 'thanking' system, has its uses, for thanking posts, without needing to pollute a thread, with constant "I agree, Thanks!!", type of posts.But on the other hand (as you have nicely shown in this thread), calculations based on its application and total received. Are not necessarily a reliable measure of a posters merits or other aspects of a poster.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 03:01:57 pm
content: All of the discussion about the Thanks button highlights the idea that individual answers should be ranked instead of individual posters. Perhaps there's a better way to implement this than Thanks button? Stack Exchange allows each of us to up/down vote an answer as being useful. I don't want the karma seeking to take over this forum, but a more specific rating system of posts (vs posters) would accomplish the goal described in the OP.Moreover, this forum is not here to cater to drive-by newbies who come here with a question and then never return. An important part of learning is distinguishing between knowledge and nonsense. The best way for us to help is by ranking individual answers. A simple up vote would be useful. Also allowing down votes invites punishment of people that we just don't like for personal reasons, so while potentially being useful might lead to more problems than it's worth.I guess what I'm advocating is somethingsimilarto the thanks button, but more specifically says "this is a good answer." My preference would be to leave the names of the voters confidential, but even the names might have value. How about simply changing the "Thanks" button to "This answer is useful"? Wouldn't even need to redo the statistics, just change the text on the button.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 03:20:24 pm
content: Quote from: eugene on February 16, 2022, 03:01:57 pmHow is that different from the current way the thanks function works? IMHO the thanks system is OK as it is.From my experience with Stackexchange and other fora the up/downvoting system doesn't work very well. In a significant number of cases the most upvoted solution is not the best one. I usually end up going through all the solutions anyway.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 03:38:06 pm
content: Quote from: Carel on February 16, 2022, 01:48:27 pmIt is disappointing when an OP doesn't post back with the results of any offered solutions. It's actually quite rare to find out if things worked out ok. You're never sure if you helped or the OP went somewhere else for info. A simple "Hey, it worked!" would be nice.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 03:51:32 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 16, 2022, 03:20:24 pmIt's different only in that "thanks" isn't really what we want to convey with the up vote. "I agree" is closer.QuoteI agree with you that not everyone that votes agrees with each other. And, we should all read through all of the answers. The votes simply convey the degree to which the community thinks an answer is valuable. Isn't that what this thread is all about?

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 04:26:40 pm
content: OMG, just checked and I've been thanked 1000 times!(not kidding, that's the precise number, 1000 thanks)Now, how many medals do I get for such a round number?

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 04:35:59 pm
content: It'll be more impressive when you get to 1024 thanks.

author: Carel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 04:41:45 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on February 16, 2022, 04:26:40 pmDear exalted member, the photo illustrated exactly the problems our dearly beloved expert leaders face: like when to order a wider uniform, a wider and higher chair, or when finally let their inseparable underlings carry and display all their garbage.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 05:39:39 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 16, 2022, 02:02:41 pmThere's the actual, real, objective truth and there's the consensus, which is just what the majority of people believe to be true at the time.Quote from: Cerebus on February 16, 2022, 02:16:52 pmYou forgot Noopy, with a thanks to post ratio of 116%, probably because nearly everyone of his posts is an interesting dieshot, which more than one person likes.Another thing to note is the thank you button only came in around 2015, so older users who made many posts before then, will have a lower ratio, than newer ones. You'd have to factor this in to get a more accurate picture.QuoteI agree.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 06:35:24 pm
content: Quote from: eugene on February 16, 2022, 04:35:59 pm1024? Why? (100 0000 0000)2maybe, but I'm no camel with 2 toes, I have 10 fingers!But then I realized, our base 10 system is wrong!Let me demonstrate why:- We use Base 10 because with 10 fingers one can represent any number from 0 to 10, right?- Let's write that down: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, correct?- But that would need a total of 11 distinct symbols.- Therefore our Base 10 system is wrong.Should have been Base 11, or else said Base A!

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 06:41:35 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on February 16, 2022, 04:26:40 pmYour eyes deceive you. Those ain't medals. They are targets for the anti-aircraft gunners.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 06:43:51 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on February 16, 2022, 06:35:24 pmNO!10 Fingers = 2^10 = 1024 Thanks needed.Or 1023, if you want to be pedantic and start from 0 Thanks.N.B. I wouldn't jest over such a serious matter.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 06:51:59 pm
content: I often argue with the experts, either because I want to know exactly why we disagree, or because they consider their expert status more important than providing correct information. So no, I don't like the idea for such badges. Besides, I'm too easy to socially manipulate – that kind of sparkly things easily lead me astray –, but cannot in good conscience really claim to be an expert on anything; definitely don't have any accredited paperwork saying so. I really dislike the Stack Exchange voting mechanism, because it pushesmost popularanswers at the top, with the assumption that they are the most correct or most useful. Yet, popularity is no indication of correctness or usefulness; only popularity. I don't like popularity games.What I would love to see, instead, is anAgreebutton. While functionality would be the same as with the Thanks button (which I admit I often use to indicate the combination of agreement and gratitude), its use and usefulness really would be orthogonal.In many ways, such an "X,Y, andZagree" list at the end of the post might actually serve the need Dave is wondering about this. Having the list of users who do actually agree would be essential for example new users to evaluate the value of such agreement, by simply clicking on the names and looking at those members most recent posts. No better way to evaluate someones output, than actually looking at said output in its proper context (reading entire threads discussing problems).It would be an easy, quick way for other members to show their agreement, without filling the thread with "Agreed." type of posts (which we seem to avoid).I often find myself wanting to just show that I agree with a post, because I myself have an earlier post on some aspect of the topic at hand, and simply just agree with a later post. Right now, I'm limited to "Thanking", or posting a silly "I agree." post, so I usually don't, unless I have additional related examples/suggestions/etc.I'm hoping it would not be seen as a "DO THIS!" endorsement, but more like nods and agreement when discussing a problem over a coffee or other beverage among colleagues, in a poster session in an academic environment, or when helping a coworker with an annoying or problematic detail.Of course, this has its own risks, and might not work too well either; I'm no expert.

author: alexnoot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 06:54:04 pm
content: May I please be titled 'Expert lurker'? Or maybe 'Expert procrastinator'? Can't really decide, but it must be shiny either way...But seriously though. I mostly lurk here, I enjoy reading all the insightful posts from other members. Having been here a while, I feel there are some users that you just recognize as 'trusted' based on what you've read from them in other posts. I don't feel like labels would help in any way in this matter. And, as mentioned by several others, who's to decide what 'expert' means, and who's worthy of such titles? Seems like a lot of work, and a lot of potential complaints.I don't post much myself, mainly because I don't feel like I have much to contribute, and also sorting my thoughts into lines of readable text representing what I want to say often takes more effort than it should. At the time of writing this, I have 21 posts and 21 thanks (mostly from topics started by a certain you-know-who). My 1:1 ratio feels pretty worthless and undeserved in my opinion,likesthanks are often 'abused' and don't necessarily always represent good content/answers. Some users really do deserve them, but at the end of the day they're still just internet points.Having more trust 'forced' upon me by means of expert labels would only feel more intimidating, how could my tiny opinion ever have any weight against an expert, etc? New users will need to learn for themselves who to trust and not to trust, and if they only come by for an easy answer - never to return, are they wanted as users anyway?

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 07:07:54 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 16, 2022, 06:43:51 pmWow, correct! Thanks giving!MK14, please accept a few more medals:

author: Sredni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 07:10:13 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on February 15, 2022, 09:18:39 amThis.Just change (or maybe add, because of retrocompability problems) the "Thanks" button into a "X members think this is a good technical solution" or something like that. Not as ambiguous as a generic "thanks".But do not add a counter in the poster's profile. And don't bother to make the names known, it will become unwieldy once users are instructed to vote for good technical answers as much as possible..This will prevent 'point farming' and ego problems (something that can be found on Stack Exchange)Make the answer count, not who posted it.I may be the world's most revered expert in boiled eggs, but my casserole might suck big time.If I serve you boiled eggs, you will reward my eggs and beginners will know my boiled eggs are good.If I serve you a casserole, nobody will eat it ("think it is a good culinary solution") and beginners might want to try something else on the menu.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 07:12:26 pm
content: Quote from: alexnoot on February 16, 2022, 06:54:04 pmJust for fun I went back and thanked all your posts. Your ratio should be about 200% by now, so possibly the highest on EEVBlog. Expect a medal in the mail.I think of EEVBlog as a peer group. That doesn't mean we are all the same or have the same level of expertise, but rather that the overall tone is more dialectic than help desk. Gettiing a 'correct' answer to a specific question misses the point, although if an answer is truly needed, often one is provided. The fact that answers may differ is not a bug, it's a feature.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 07:57:18 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 16, 2022, 07:12:26 pmI pointed out earlier that as soon as you introduce some metric (or folks become aware of it), people will game it. Thank you for proving me right.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 08:04:13 pm
content: A puzzle question, for anyone who wants to participate.Which user, has (currently) thanked the most users ?Clue: If you think hard about it, you can probably guess who that user is.I don't necessarily know the correct answer, but the highest I know about, currently, is at 181 pages of thanks given to others.

author: alexnoot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 08:05:22 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 16, 2022, 07:12:26 pmMedal? No, I want to exchange my shiny internet points for shiny bitcoins or somethingAnd I do agree, there is seldom only one correct answer. The problem with experts is that they can be stuck in their way of thinking, and anyone thinking differently is in their opinion wrong.An example for me would be in school as a kid, a teacher wants problem X solved, and I solved the problem.But it is wrong, that's not the way I taught you to solve it!But my answer is correct, and I did itthisway? ...Teaching that there is only one correct answer is obviously wrong, but the great thing about a forum is that anyone can voice their opinion equally and discuss X, Y and Z. But an expert might have a strong opinion on X as the answer and will use their 'power' to their advantage. A discussion free from labels is more beneficial in my opinion.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 08:23:40 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on February 16, 2022, 07:07:54 pmThat photo is a classic!I wonder what the guy, third from the right got his dangling medal for!

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 08:34:14 pm
content: Is a photo showing the back of the first row ?

author: Carel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 08:43:53 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on February 16, 2022, 08:23:40 pmFor not pissing on the parade.

author: Carel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 09:10:40 pm
content: And not a single "jar lid" on anyone in the background. It would disturb the uniformity of the cannon fodder This is where a trend ends.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 09:12:26 pm
content: Quote from: alexnoot on February 16, 2022, 08:05:22 pmShiny bitcoins? Biny shitcoins? Binary shitcoins? Now that is an apt term for discussion board badges and popularity score accomplishments.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 09:16:00 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2022, 05:02:58 amI thank people for particularly useful answers that I want to be able to search on and find again in the future if I need to see them again.Dave, I just want to thank you for setting up eevblog and all the work you put into it. Its a huge amount of fun and Ive learned countless super useful things both here and in your videos.Also, I realized the other day, forums like this one are very positive for promoting world peace. And making us realize that life is not a zero sum game.We have people from all over the world and when we're here we're all trying to solve problems together, and you know we really do care about one another. Thats a really great thing. So again, thank you, ALL, a lot!

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 09:28:48 pm
content: Ouch!If they make it to retirement, in one piece, thats pretty good. As you point out @jpanhalt many don't.Quote from: jpanhalt on February 16, 2022, 06:41:35 pm

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 09:57:03 pm
content: It sounds good but I am not in favour of one official answer for everything or maybe as an idea on as a last resort on "call in basis" where there is a thread with no responses for long time or it is agreeable that members don't know and they are called in and forced to provide an answer.What I like here sometimes are when members argue over different ways or methods of achieving the same thing.Each way having it's pro's and con's.I learn from that.I like to make my own choice based on those arguments and any research or work contributed by the members that may benefit rather than an official answer.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 11:51:37 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 16, 2022, 08:04:13 pm200 pages hereBut who you are talking about would likely be higher, if you include all of their accounts.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 11:56:55 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 16, 2022, 11:51:37 pmCongratulations, absolutely spot on (well spotted, a forest of accounts hasn't fooled you)!The highest I've found (after my original post), is now up to 224 pages. BD139:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?area=showposts;sa=thanked;u=143772Other tea thread regulars, could be better.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 01:26:45 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 16, 2022, 11:56:55 pm*447 pages for Mr BD you found.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 01:35:49 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 17, 2022, 01:26:45 amYou're right. I messed up, and had the wrong button/option set. I quoted the total thanks they have received, rather than the thanks they have given to others.Also, they have given an amazing 11,152 thanks to other people. Maybe we should request they get renamed to Father Christmas (Joke).A new winner (with 699 pages, currently):https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=118104;area=showposts;sa=thank;start=17450With 17,465 thanks given to other posters

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 04:56:53 am
content: Ah mnementh, our tame TEA dwagon. He likes to engage and thank replies, please don't hold that against him.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 09:23:38 am
content: IIRC there is an option for the Thanks system where it displays under the username. I think we turned that one on once and it was voted off the island!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 09:34:03 am
content: First it is important to understand what the intended objective of any change is:Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2022, 03:45:38 amThis needs to be consistently kept in mind as ideas are floated - and these ideas need to be closely considered as to how they will achieve that improvement.What usually comes next is the discussion of how this could be achieved, which we have seen. However, I feel it is important to not completely ignore the current situation.First is the nature of the community and "the vibe" we have here that has developed under the existing conditions:Quote from: Siwastaja on February 16, 2022, 06:39:04 amSecond, we should remain mindful of what it offers:Quote from: tggzzz on February 15, 2022, 09:59:48 pmThis is no small thing in itself. It particularly deals with the concept of critical thinking and people taking responsibility for their own actions - instead of just blindly following whatever theybelievethey read. There is an argument for helping a beginner with those first stumbling steps - but that is available right now. All it takes is for a member to take a little time.I'm not going to speak to how effective any given change may be as I feel there is a far more important aspect to be considered:What can go wrong.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 15, 2022, 07:21:00 pmQuote from: Cerebus on February 16, 2022, 02:16:52 pmThis is a certainty. There are many examples reported and I have witnessed exactly this in KRA/KPI evaluations. Pretty much guaranteed to screw up any system.As has been said before, as well as the direct impact on anyone with such an "Expert" badge - which could drive them away - the dynamic would most certainly change:Quote from: HobGoblyn on February 15, 2022, 10:39:53 pmThere are other issues - but I'm going to stop there.So, the question is - as I see it: "Will a change provide improvement or risk destabilising what we already have?"To me, the risk/reward equation falls clearly on the side ofnotchanging - at least as far as the "Expert" badge proposition is concerned.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 09:58:21 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2022, 09:23:38 amI don't think the "thanked" counter is an appropriate measure for expertise, but it is the only available data that is readily available and without personal bias. "Expert" badges on the other hand will require setting up rules and procedures for people to elect an "elite" caste and I generally dislike any approach that is not truly merit based.I also don't think it'll do anyone any good to stop thinking for themselves and rely on a display of "rank" instead. Experts can be wrong.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 10:13:54 am
content: Sounds like "Social score" pilot test for EEVblog.Joke aside, we are talking HR language here, "potentially help", "more confident", etc.Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2022, 03:45:38 amI'm not aware of this being a problem on EEVblog, but maybe I didn't pay attention. From my own memory, each time I was wrong, other more knowledgeable users corrected me almost instantly. So again, what lost beginners are we talking about?Can you, Dave, or maybe the proposer of the initial idea, please give 5-10 links to such threads where the beginner was lost, but a score or a badge would have helped the beginner?Without some examples, we are just talking words.

author: rpiloverbd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 10:41:42 am
content: Not bad.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 10:52:09 am
content: Well, off to go post cat pictures to get my counter upNote to self: Get a cat firstAs long as non technical posts can get thanks, this is a meaningless metric.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 11:00:39 am
content: Please let users think for themselves and develop their own opinion about who might be an expert, troll or whatever. Posh badges would only hurt this forum's great community.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 11:17:50 am
content: Many forums display similar counters so maybe it's not completely crazy.But it triggers me that it doesn't follow the post count immediately and appears below the country flagAnd it should be one ofCode:Thanked 1049 timesThanked: 1049Thanks received: 1049Thanks: 1049And so on. As is, that colon just ruins it.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 12:22:53 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2022, 09:23:38 amMaybe it's time to vote if off again?

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 12:23:45 pm
content: But I don't want a thanks counter attached in my avatar box.@Dave, @EEVblog, why are we doing this? Only a few posts above you wrote attaching the Thanks counter was rejected, yet I see since today the thanks counter is displayed.Is somebody forcing you to make such changes?What's all this bullshit about "protecting the beginners"? Who came with this request? Where are any links with proof of damage to beginner?What is happening here?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 12:42:10 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on February 17, 2022, 12:23:45 pmWell it's Dave's forum and he can jolly well do what the hell he likes.I admit, I'm not a fan of the thanks counter either, but if Dave wants it, then so be it.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 01:45:42 pm
content: If that were to be Dave's wish/idea, I wouldn't argue against, but it is not his, the idea was induced to him.Dave just wrote showing the thanks counter was not liked and until yesterday, he respected users wish and didn't display that counter before. Also, all this shitstorm is not coming from a Dave's idea, as written in the OP:Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2022, 03:45:38 amAm particularly sensitive to any attempts of social score, social stratification and alike scores, especially nowadays. Social tagging is the next nightmare to humanity, and if you didn't noticed it already begun, look, random example from this week:Later Edit:------------I've copy pasted a wrong video from youtube, my bad sorry, the one I meant to copy was this one, about the ESG Score (Environmental, Social, and Governance risk):https://youtu.be/diVXYzN-X1kI don't want to add to social tagging on a place like EEVblog.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 01:48:34 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on February 17, 2022, 10:52:09 amAs long as total number displayed-yes, perhaps meaningless. I was offering to display thanx number for particular area of expertise, together with total or not.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 01:52:15 pm
content: Can't wait for my "Building projects that blow up multiple times expert" badgeBut if anyone wants to let others know how much of an expert they are they can just write it down in their forum signature.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 02:53:33 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on February 17, 2022, 10:52:09 amIf we don't see a user rank, but only the number of thanks received by a particular post, then the metric can be meaningful.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 03:43:01 pm
content: As regards the topic,Designated "Expert" Forum Users?I think NOT having any significant expert rating system, is the best course of action. Getting perhaps three answers, from users with varying levels of experience/expertise, is useful, in my opinion. For beginners, intermediates and experts asking the questions, alike.Hypothetical question (and answers are FICTIONAL): Why do MCUs need clocks, such as 48MHz ones ?The intermediate user, can give a nice explanation of how baud rates need to be generated, how interrupt timing occur, and other practicalities.A beginner themselves, can say they had the same query, and can recommend this very good internet link about it. Link supplied.A top expert can say, well actually computers didn't always need to have clocks. There are asynchronous ways of implementing the central processing unit. But such designs rapidly became unpopular, and were soon mostly abandoned. Except for some very rare memory access systems, which benefited from the lack of need to have fixed access times.So, the various levels of expertise, from total beginner (answering the question with links they found useful, and helpful youtube videos on the subject area), intermediate people chiming in, and the odd real top expert here and there. Can make an interesting, education and useful answer. Perhaps spanning a few forum pages.Turning this forum into some kind of 'expert' only (for the best answers), or voting for thebestanswers, doesn't seem like a good idea to me. There have been some very interesting threads, created here in the past. I'm convinced, changing thepersonalityof the forum, may change all that.On the other hand. Sometimes new concepts do need to be at least tried out. Otherwise, this forum would still be (exaggerated fictional statement follow, for dramatic effect) text only, using a 110 baud dial-up, clip on phone handset modem unit, on a computer from the 1980s.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 03:49:38 pm
content: Going back to the notion of making things slightly (subtly?) more difficult --What if the "thank" function were harder to use? More information could be attached to it, for example:"You wish to Thank this post. What did you like about it?"FunnyPoliteInsightfulTechnicalWell explainedetc.Maybe even adding traditional 1-5 scores or something.Those data wouldn't necessarily even need to be used anywhere, the point being just to give the thanker something to think about before clicking the button. Obviously there's nothing forcing that to be the case every time -- but in the average case, people do tend to do what the thing says.And so, it's no longer just a throwaway action, it at the very least demands enough attention to click through these things, and it can be that the answer is only accepted once enough options have been filled out. Even if one clicks through mindlessly, that can be correlated against e.g. per-user stats (low-value thankers get in a habit of ticking all 5's or what have you?), per-post or thread stats (is a post/thread just consistently bad -- in constructive ways? or is it being brigaded? Or, conversely, is a post/thread consistently good and perhaps worthy of automatic labeling as such?), and this provides a statistical mechanism to infer experts: those that are frequently reviewed, positively, in technical subjects (it could further be clustered by topic), by users that frequently give quality (high entropy?) reviews. Thus, the scientific method of consensus, but formalized algorithmically, independent of users' egos (hopefully).Obvious downside: someone has to add those columns to the database, and write and run the evaluation. (Which might run incrementally per post, or be totalized periodically, and whatever cache awareness / synchronicity has to go with that, etc.) So, unless someone's already written a plugin to this effect, doubt it's going to happen here. And the value functions aren't the most obvious, and would require testing many variations to arrive at the most useful stats.And then, Idunno, if it ends up written as an SMF plugin kind of thing, could that be sold in turn as a package to other customers? Maybe there's a value proposition in there. Maybe the value isn't anywhere close to what is needed to justify that amount of work (some months of development at least, I would guess?).As for honest indicators, real financial barriers tend to be representative. Something of the neoliberal dream, put your money where your mouth is, quite literally. This might resemble for example Reddit's awards system. Which is generally not very highly rated as I understand it; but clearly, not so poorly that people don't use it. And, again, whatever financial liabilities the site would have to undertake to manage that. Maybe there are ways that e.g. Paypal can streamline such interactions, maybe there's just too much work to do (including international transactions!) that it's only ever feasible for the biggest players (i.e. Reddit themselves).Tim

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 03:59:10 pm
content: "You wish to Thank this post. What did you like about it?"Funny 1/5Polite 4/5Insightful 5/5Technical 3/5Well explained 5/5etc. -2/5See post above.EDIT: Sorry. But I think it would be a real pain to fill out information like that, for every 'thank' issued.The fact you just have to spend a couple of seconds to just click it, makes it VERY convenient.It's just that a few members here click the thank button way too frequently.(I'm trying to NOT overuse the thank button, but do seem to supply quite a few).For example, ebay have quite a few fields like above, to fill out, for sellers you have just dealt with. It is a bit of a chore to fill it all out. Having the same chore, just for other peoples forums posts, seems like a bind to me, even if you liked and want to thank their post.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 04:13:24 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 17, 2022, 03:49:38 pmAnd now you have placed quite a burden on someone who just wants to thank someone. Now they have to score it, mentally justify it or, more likely, walk away. Somebody better keep a tally of the 'Entire Board Thanks Per Day' over time. I'll bet it goes way down!No, I'm not a fan! Probably because I have no particular skills and stand in awe of those who do but nevertheless...

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 04:17:28 pm
content: Hey, at least we don't have a way to buy "thanks" points.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 04:17:38 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 17, 2022, 12:42:10 pmIt's making me a bit queasy....I hope it goes away.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 04:27:24 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 17, 2022, 04:17:38 pmMaybe the thanks system and/or displaying it, on all forum screens. Should be a selectable option(s), that can be enabled or disabled. Under user preferences. Then whoever wants to can just opt out of the thanks system and other possible future changes/additions.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 04:31:02 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 17, 2022, 03:49:38 pmWhy? Before making any change there should be a reason for it, and the advantages weighed against the disadvantages. I outlined some of the disadvantages in my first post on this topic. I see no advantage in a score or even keeping track of thanks. Maybe you do.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 04:44:49 pm
content: To clarify, I don't expect much, or care very strongly, about such a feature (see my first comment in this thread). Just speculating on methods that might be useful, given one is interested in adding such in the first place.This is, more or less, motivated in relation to the one social stat we currently have, so I'm rather abusing the nature of it above. It would certainly be renamed to something more meaningful -- "Review this post", say.In which case, we could still have the "Thanks" function, and not even worry about tallying counts per user, because -- as we already know -- it's not a very meaningful/useful signal at all, more just an acknowledgement that people appreciate something about some posts. It's useful under a given post, and not really beyond that.So, given a prompt of, "that, but usefuller", that's kind of my angle on this. Speculative, brainstormy, nothing should be read as "it will be precisely this way and no other". I mean, hell, I'm pretty fucking far from having any kind of authority to implement such a thing, come on....Speaking of "reviews", there's also the "report this post" function. Which as far as I know, is nothing more than PMing a mod. Having some built-in statistics could save some mod effort (assuming they need the assistance -- which as far as I know, hasn't been any kind of issue). Another way to think of it is, providing more of a sliding scale from "praise" to "meh" to "factually incorrect" to "actually spam, mods pls". Maybe there's value in the proportionality of the rating?Idunno. Again, I'm just an electrical engineer, not a social one.Tim

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 04:53:06 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 17, 2022, 04:17:28 pmSure we do! I'll thank all of your posts if you thank all of mine and we'll be the overachievers of the Thanks system.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 05:23:16 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 17, 2022, 04:53:06 pmAnd I suspect you know that is exactly what happens on another forum, not to mention names. Except, that forum now gives trophies.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 05:35:20 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on February 17, 2022, 05:23:16 pmI have no idea which forum you are talking about (maybe ?). But if I did, I imagine they would have categories as follows:QuoteWhat exactly do those things mean, such as what determines the reputation, what is a reaction score, and activity points. What are trophy points ?Would a beginner, even have a clue what those parameters mean ?I wonder if it is aiming to get the facebook likes/dislikes crowd or something.

author: Algoma
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 05:53:25 pm
content: "helpful" Reaction type emoji's that can be "awarded" to the headers of significant posts in a thread to highlight them. Basically see Reddit "awards" for reference, these can also become a source of financial support for the forum operations to give them more actual value.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 05:56:22 pm
content: Having read the discussion of the last few pages.. don't know where to hook into. But my 2cts:The "Thanks" system is analogous to the Facebook Like button. Stackexchange atleast has the downvote option. YouTube HAD the downvote option. I think an upvote only system is flawed by design.Second, turning engineering advisory into some kind of democracy system is hard, or .. weird. If we want an expert assigned, how is that expert promoted or nominated? Is it based on popularity, amount of effort/activity or visibility? I've seen some people posting regurarly with good advice, but also admitting their limitations of knowledge. OTOH I've also seen some pretty though and relentless comments on this forum from time to time, especially when things start to get opinion based, so I would hardly be surprised if any of this will be based on fairness or equal treatment.. If that is of interest.E.g. if a college undergrad needs to study a paper for class and can point out a mistake in the calculations to the professor.. Then that still is a mistake.And that mistake could cause a skyscraper to go down. In that case it's a good thing that there is adisinterestin the discussion.I personally think all of these post counters, thanks, likes, ratios, badges, assigned expert, "Voted as helpful answer" is a race to the bottom: monkeys climbing the mountain and being the one on top. Obviously we're goofing around with the system in this thread, but I personally think that having a discussion on equal human and moral values is the best environment a forum can put forward.For example, I'm very content that the moderation and administration of this forum doesn't go onto a power grab to make their point or try to "organize" the system to their liking. I've seen this happen quite often on other platforms, such as StackExchange, where they can start whining about referencing some external site (because it may go down in the future, rendering the post "useless").

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 05:59:14 pm
content: Quote from: Algoma on February 17, 2022, 05:53:25 pmTo check my understanding. It means users of a forum (or similar), can pay money, which then is an additional/another income stream, for the forum/channel/entity. Which allows the user to buy, virtualcoins, which they can then award to helpful members.Hence you can't just go around handing out thanks clicks, just like candy. As they have to be bought.But since they support a popular forum/channel (Youtube), I can understand why that would be an interesting idea.https://www.reddit.com/coinsQuoteEDIT What worries me about the system I just described (virtual coins). Is forum members finances vary, e.g. a young electronics hobbyist, who has difficulty buying stuff at the moment. So I don't like the idea of any thanking/ranking/trophy system being connected to financially purchasable tokens.Looking at the top of this forum:QuoteWouldn't then apply, in my opinion. Even the suggested 'expert' system, in my view, means the Open and Free bits would need to be removed or amended.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 06:13:35 pm
content: What about combiningThankswithAgreed, instead? (As in Thank/Agree, instead of just Thank, and similarly in the statistics.)It seems to match the current use of Thanks, especially across topics and sub-forums. It might defuse some of the social gaming aspects ("score"), too.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 06:21:23 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on February 17, 2022, 05:23:16 pmAnd I haven't been back since the day I discovered the change. I'm far too old to get 'trophies'. Hell, I've been retired for 18 years and my only claim to 'expertism' is that I live comfortably despite not having a commute. Silicon Gulch was good while it lasted. I don't miss it a bit!

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 06:24:55 pm
content: Only somewhat related to the "expert" tag, but more about helping beginners:On occasion I jump in to help where there is a fairly simple question. Sometimes I make the first reply. Sometimes I nail it, or at least get so close that nobody else cares to add anything (even if I ask for additional comments or opinions). I'm not looking for someone to compliment me on my amazing use of Ohm's law, and I certainly hope to be corrected if I get it wrong, but I think it would be helpful for the beginner to see a confirmation. For all they know, I'm just some random idiot.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 06:34:53 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on February 17, 2022, 06:24:55 pmThis is exactly the situation when I wish there was anAgreebutton, instead of a Thanks one.Then again, the Thanks button itself does have it uses, just different. Which is why I do not think the two would "collide" if combined into the same. It just means that the reader needs to consider the post itself, and which aspect of the Thanks/Agreed applies. But its very presence is useful for new members, as indication confirming the postsomehow; thatsomehowbeing quantifiable only by reading the post and examining the posting history of those who thanked/agreed with it.I must say, having ones post somehow "end" the thread with no response or acknowledgement feelsnasty. It happens to me often, and I never know whether the thread came to a natural end, or if others just got fed up with my verbosity, and chose not to engage any further. I sometimes do avoid posting for exactly that reason, especially in the Beginner forum; I do not want to be the only one giving advice.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 06:48:33 pm
content: If the vote is for an expert tag, then why are the "Thanked XXX times" suddenly under the user info? I vote no on this because it offers no substance as to the proper use of "Thank User" button. As mentioned above, there are many reasons that replies get thanked, some simply thank replies because they replied.But, as usual, the members have morphed this question into something else. So if there is a button or trophy to be given to forum members, such as number of times thanked, then I will propose a different viewpoint:How about another button that only the OP can see/utilize called "This is the answer that I was looking for" or some such thing, I invite others to name it better. If the OP presses this button that only the OP can see, the thread ends, but the OP has the option to reply when this button is pressed to explain that this is the answer they were looking for.If this is a "merit" badge for those interested in merit badges, then the total "merits" can optionally be displayed on the forum member who was tagged.EDIT: Just for reference, I voted "I don't like it".

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 06:56:43 pm
content: If you are going to have a Thanks button there should be the obvious No-Thanks button to make the choice binary. Voting should be compulsory and limited to the OP. It's their question and only their opinion matters and it is required.That kind of levels the playing field - if a poster has given too many No-Thanks, don't bother with their question, you'll only diminish your reputation. Lots of posts, not many Thanks. Like my account...Leaving a reply with Thanks or <no comment> seems unfair to the respondents.ETA: Maybe add Thanks Given to Thanks Received in the side bar. There must be something the numbers guys can make of posts, Thanks Given and Thanks Received. Maybe add Threads Started... We could do an entire AI project identifying the true experts! Or at least the most popular members...

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 07:01:21 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 17, 2022, 06:34:53 pmYou just need to try to work with your self-esteem. I know, it's easier said than done! Anyone who does not like your verbosity is free to ignore you. The rest of us - we like it so much that we are like "Yes!! Nominal has posted again!!". Trust me, even if no one replies anything, the post has been appreciated by many. If you keep the discussion going, even with the risk of being "the last one", the chances of someone else posting again are higher, than if you choose to be silent.If you are the only one giving advice, sure it feels a bit awkward, but... In the end, the responsibility of participating is on the shoulders of others. If no one else wants to say anything, it'stheirproblem, not yours.The highest thanks/posts ratio is by those who write something* easily agreeable by most* yet not meaningless; with actual points / relevance to the topic* distilled, 1-2 interesting details* not too long or detailed,so they appeal to most groups at least in one way. Cerebus hits the nail.Those who write very long, detailed posts, like Tim or yourself or even myself sometimes (although I'm not claiming I'm in the same league; I could come closer if I doubled-tripled the effort and time spent in writing), appeal to those who like reading long posts, and have time to do that; that just limits the audience!Yet, long, detailed posts are exactly what we need, not many write them, because doing it well requires so much time and effort, as you very well know. But because reading them also requires time and effort, it's just inevitable they are not foreveryone. The result is mediocre thanks/posts ratio which does not reflect the high quality of the posts.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 07:01:37 pm
content: I think this idea was deemed to be bad halfway though the page 1. If this was stackoverflow, the discussion would be over.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 07:05:32 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 17, 2022, 06:56:43 pmVery strong disagree on this.The best thing about this forum is, this is not a question-answer service like Stack Overflow. X-Y problems are commonplace; some of the best and most factual answers irritate many posters, because they are not what theyexpectorwantto hear. Yet, these answers are what theyneedto hear. Even more importantly, whatotherswith similar problem need to hear!Hence, rating can't be left for those who started the discussion. They can not, and do not represent everyone else with the same or similar question.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 07:07:55 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 17, 2022, 07:01:37 pmThis answer is a duplicate of an answer from another thread (posted 6.5 years ago). Also, not enough people have accepted this answer/post as being correct enough. Suggest deletion of this post, as not relevant enough.tl;drAlternatives have downsides as well as upsides.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 07:23:28 pm
content: Quote from: tpowell1830 on February 17, 2022, 06:48:33 pmEnding the thread could be useful but the most fun threads start after the original question is answered and the discussion goes off the rails and into the weeds.Here is one of Simon's queries from several years ago. There is a lot of interesting information about the various math solvers as well as the question itself. It went off the rails fairly early:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/mesh-analysis/Then there is Charlotte's epic thread on purchasing a scope. She buys a Siglent SDS1202X-E around Reply 150 and then it gets interesting as she wanders through the User Manual trying every feature. I had never use a scope to integrate a signal... Tautech's contributions are very helpful!https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/what-an-oscilloscope-recommended-for-a-woman-passionate-about-electronics/These are both memorable threads because they got interesting after they went off the rails. I don't think the Thanks system can adequately address the utility of either of these threads particularly if it is used to close threads.OTOH, I wouldn't mind seeing a Zombie system installed that closes forever threads older than <some duration>. Posting to a discussion that ended 5 years ago seems dubious. It's dead, leave it that way! I'm thinking weeks, not years.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 07:24:38 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 17, 2022, 06:56:43 pmFirst, do no harm. I cannot agree to any negative, including no thanks, feedback. Negative and various varieties of like/dislike was tried at ETO years ago. It was a monumental failure. I don't know if the varieties of like are still there. Zero function whether divided by 1 or 5 is still zero.The exception is the immediate "thank you" that is not added to a cumulative score. A thank you for any help or effort to help is always appropriate. The "binary" opposite almost never is except in a civil debate. Can you imagine going to someone's house for dinner and not thanking the host and hostess regardless of how bad it was?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 07:32:13 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 17, 2022, 07:05:32 pmYes, I was being facetious again...I don't like any part of the proposed solutions. The downsides for all of them far outweigh the upsides. People just want to have fun, not compete for trophies. Do we give Participation Awards? Sounds like it!

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 07:37:58 pm
content: We need a facetious emoji. I thought that might be the case, but I didn't want to say that, if you weren't.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 07:40:23 pm
content: Already mentioned by me.But it would be nice to have user selectable options, via the forum account settings, and similar. Such as:OPT-IN to Thanking SystemDisable Thanking system for this userShow Thanks totals on all postsHide total thanks from everyone except actual userShow Expert Titles, Badges and TrophiesHide and Opt out of all Badges and Trophies

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 07:46:06 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 17, 2022, 07:01:37 pmThat made me laugh.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 07:51:24 pm
content: .

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 07:57:43 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 17, 2022, 07:01:21 pmI edit myself. I often initially end up writing something much longer, but I go back, try and put myself in the reader's seat, see if it makes sense, then restructure, clarify, remove redundancies, as necessary. Obviously not if it's just a conversational post.I've had the luxury of having a sub-editor regularly do it for me, and I've seen how much a sub-editor can improve something; so I try to be my own sub-editor, but it's a poor second place to a having genuine different pair of eyes read something before 'publishing'.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 07:59:12 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 17, 2022, 07:01:21 pmNo, that's not the issue. You see, if I wanted to be the only one dispensing advice, I'd do that at my own web page; I even have a domain ready for that, if the fancy strikes me. And while I definitely am noexpert, I have lots and lots ofexperiencein various things I'm very proud of and willing to discuss.While I do have some self-esteem issues, mostly my issues are withcommunication. As you know, I'mnevershy of providing my own opinion or viewpoint.The issue is that a single viewpoint is just a single viewpoint. When both questions and answers have quite a lot of guesses and "noise" involved – well, questions mostly lack necessary information, rather than have too much information or useless information in them –, each answer includes a set of undisclosed assumptions, which may or may not be correct. (I sometimes answer questions based on an informed guess – based on past observations of similar questions – and they suprisingly often hit the asker's target, but equally often weird out other potential answerers as to "what made you think they asked aboutthat?)Consider a collegial coffee break or beer after work, where someone describes a problem they're having with something, and one of the group makes a suggestion on how to proceed or solve the issue. Then, consider the three cases of how the situation continues:The group simply disbands, people looking at their empty cups or glasses, and either go get a refill or back to their work.Other members of the group make assent noises or nods, look at their empty cups or glasses, and either go get a refill or back to their work.Someone (or more than one) says "hey, that's a good idea; thanks for suggesting that, I'll have to rememer it myself too". Then, everyone looks at their empty cups or glasses, and either go get a refill or back to their work.The first one is what happens now. You may not believe this, but I'm actually quite emphatic, and whenever I detect that situation in real life, end up chatting with the asker, just to avoid them having to experience that silence. On the net, it is harder to do.The second is what I'd like to have: anAgreebutton. Not only does it solve the problem Dave is asking whether the forum should have designated "Expert" forum users –– helping new members and basically everyone evaluate suggestions made, without trying to change the posting culture so that people would post much more "I agree, that's what I'd suggest too" posts. It is also very easy, a single click.The third is the existing "Thanks" option, from my own perspective. Because of the perception of a pure "Thank you" in different cultures, different members treat it differently. Some use it as a pure acknowledgement –– say, like looking at whoever is talking now, showing that what they are saying is being considered and thought of -–; some like myself use it somewhat as a mix of the second and third cases above, depending on the subject; some use it as a bookmark; and some think it is such a strong endorsement that it should be used sparingly, or it will lose its value, lowering the signal-to-noise ratio unacceptably.Unfortunately, it looks like the forum software does not currently support or have any easy way to implement a separateAgreebutton that would work exactly like Thanks, but be separate. So my favourite suggestion is unfortunately out.Therefore, the "best" option, in my opinion and experience with technical forums, would be to combine the Thanks button with Agree/Assent/Concur.While the change would be just to the text shown on the page (on the button and in statistics), it might be a clever solution to the underlying problem Dave is considering adding "Expert" user classification for. For members, it just means that if they read a thread, and they see a solution they themselves would suggest if it had not already been suggested, or if they agree with the suggestion and have some experience with the problem or similar problems, they are encouraged to click on theThanks/Agreedbutton.On theHelppage –– right next to the Home button on the link bar ––, this could be described explicitly; as well as on the pages intended for new members to read, and on the Forum rules etc.In a real sense, this would be the social engineering option to solve an underlying problem for which a technical solution has been suggested.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 08:01:54 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on February 17, 2022, 07:37:58 pmI don't do 'social media'. I have no idea how to use emojis even if I were so inclined. 'Luddite' applies here...

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 01:24:30 am
content: Quote from: emece67 on February 17, 2022, 07:51:24 pmYou're getting me worried, about the changes which are happening here.I'm absolutely NOT a facebook fan kind of person.It happened to another forum. I won't mention its name here. But they went from a nice/neat open plan, forum, to a horrible messy, point scoring, expert only sectioned, massive eye hurting, mess-up.I almost have to squint my eyes, when ever I see it, and I just ignore the silly/crazy points schemes, multi-faceted likes (many types selectable on there), and one or more sections is for EXPERT replies only. They also added up/down voting things.But I don't mind, there are still many places available, around the internet, to find out about things.I think they had a change of management, which was probably why things changed. They were probably more concerned about maximizing views, advertising and hence profitability.If I understand things correctly, the users in general, hated the new schemes, and said so. But the admin teams, seemed to ignore all the complaints, and just did whatever they wanted to.On the one hand it is their forum, they can do what they like. But on the other, the best users probably disappeared, and the less useful members remained. But maybe the forum was getting less and less popular anyway, as I suppose times change.I think I'd read things on that forum less and less, anyway, a long while, before the changes. But I was amazed at how bad a forum can be messed up, with a change of management and various changes they make.As I see it. It is like the modern freemium games. With paid micro-transactions. Whereby once good games, with sensible one-off game purchase pricing, became expensive horrible freemium ones.tl;drNot all changes are good. It's not my forum, but a thread asking what we think, seems to have been created. So I'll leave my opinions.On reflection, I think I'm being significantly too pessimistic, in my outlook. I.e. Making a mountain out of a molehill.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 02:00:53 am
content: I can see arguments on both sides of the fence, but I'm swaying more towards the "don't like it" option for these reasons:Some experts (not all) will simply use the tag to stroke their own egos or perhaps attempt to use it as a subtle tool to make themselves appear more knowledgeable in other fields, even when they aren't (kind of like not correcting someone when they mistakenly assume you have a certain position/authority/credentials etc...).Some experts are introverts or don't like to be labelled, so to those who don't know them, they might appear less "authoritative".It creates classes of people which will inevitably lead to bullying.Some people might take offence if they don't "make the grade.Determining who is an expert shouldn't be up to the admins/moderators.Likewise if you let users class themselves as experts, it de-values the meaning as non-experts will simply use the tag to feed their own egos or misrepresent themselves.We don't wear a badge to social events that says "expert", why do it here?What problem/deficiency are we attempting to solve by implementing this?I'd much prefer a system where others can up or down-vote user comments to produce some kind of aggregate "score", but even that is not without its problems and needs careful consideration. For example, on the Australian internet forum Whirlpool, every user has an "aura" which is basically a popularity vote. Regardless if your content is true or factual, if you piss the wrong people off, they will do everything in their power to down-vote users in order to artificially impact their aura. I saw this all the time as a moderator there before I left. It just became a poisonous forum to be part of.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 02:02:06 am
content: Yes, questions posed in the "Go Ask The Expert" sections on that other board could only be answered by the appointed expert on the topic. That left all of the burden on one person and the various forums could be stagnant for years. Truly a waste of pixels.I started thinking about divisiveness (again) and how one possible result of this topic just adds another example of 'them versus us' and all of its side effects. There's enough divisiveness going around without adding it to a laid-back family oriented forum. There are some very talented people hanging out here and most seem quite generous with their time.Who should be the most comfortable here? The folks that have been here a while and are just kickin' back or the person who showed up on Tuesday and didn't like the replies?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 02:07:17 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 18, 2022, 02:00:53 amThat about sums it up! But I'm also against the up/down-voting. How do you judge the quality of the person voting. Maybe they don't like the reply because it doesn't fit their preconceived idea of how a problem should be solved. Their solution won't work, they get told it won't work and then they down-vote the reply.You last point is the most important (in my view). What problem is being solved and, more important, why is it being solved at all?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 02:10:47 am
content: I leftStackOverflowandStackExchangebecause ofexpertswho were more interested in theirsocial score"reputation" than being factual/useful. It is typical for high-scoring members to leave their inaccurate or misleading answer to stand as long as it garners positive score, and simply delete it without admitting any error if it looks like it might go negative. They never admit to making an error, because that might negatively affect their "reputation". (I know about a dozen members of each site that are the complete opposite, and like me, don't like the social gaming, but really enjoy trying to help with difficult questions, and learners to learn in an effective manner. The majority plays the score game.)I don't like voting "up" or "down". Thenumberof members who agree or disagree does not matter to me, and because it only indicates popularity (of the question and answer). I do not believe the numerical count is actually useful in any way. At best, it is a hint. At worst, it may often mislead.I'd also like to get rid of that new Thanked: counter under my country flags; it weirds me out.What matters, is what kind of posts those who give advice, or who signal their agreement on some advice, have made in the recent past.Note: I do not think thatwhoagrees in itself is important or even relevant, because I believeargument from authorityis a fallacy. It's just that the most reliable and functional way to assess the weight of someones opinion is to examine their other statements at around the same time; here, their most recent posts across topics. (Having the Thanked/Agreed name list in each post directly link to the most recent posts of that member would therefore be better than just linking to that member's profile page.)Of course, it is even better if we can simply read the reasoning and experience behind that opinion instead, becausethosecan be objectively evaluated for applicability in other situations, which is why I far prefer those reasons and experience over the actual opinions. But that makes for much longer posts...

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 02:40:57 am
content: I know other forums that went the other direction and removed even post counts from the forum display (you could still check it through their profile if you wanted) as it was uncorrelated to anything important in discussions. Should be interesting to see if publicizing a users thanked count adds any value.Counts of things in a forum/community with diverse activities/groups is a poor measure, as discussed above with the example tea thread.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 03:16:16 am
content: I'm pretty sure some of the thanks I have are due to me stating I'd had enough of the debate I was in and was going to bed ...

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:55:00 am
content: An "ex" is a has-been, and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.No, Dave, it smacks of arrogance and lofty aspirations. Bad move. Don't. Do. It.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 06:36:17 am
content: Quote from: eti on February 18, 2022, 05:55:00 amI recall it being X is an unknown quantity.But yeah.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 07:58:20 am
content: Not sure about the display of thanks so prominently.As for the original proposition - the more I think about it, the more I am against it. I cannot see it being capable of achieving the aspiration sought and there are multiple risks to what is currently working.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 08:31:59 am
content: .

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 09:39:04 am
content: Halcyon's response is accurate. I even thanked it.As for the thanks under my moniker, I'd like to amend my .sig to include "Ignore the thanks count; too many were given by woodz". I can't because I'm not allowed to have a longer .sig

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 09:55:56 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 18, 2022, 02:00:53 amAwhile back, the administrator stated that this forum did not have an archival function. That was in response to a suggestion for some sort of logging of seminal contributions. I had never seen that stated as such for a forum and thought it was not only accurate but quite perceptive. Voting up or down comments like on Stack seems to imply that function. That is, why do it when a thread is active and ample opportunity exists to refute or support statements?Although you point out an obvious problem for such voting, I think you minimize the effect of such a system. It would not only be a risk, it would destroy this forum as it currently exists.PS: Sorry to be late with a response. We had flooding and power outages last night.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 09:57:08 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 18, 2022, 09:39:04 amYou still have some space in the "personal text" which you don't seem to be using.Failing that, you could even put it in your gender

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 11:29:34 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 18, 2022, 07:58:20 amAt the time of the above post, I was on an "almost there" 2998. Now it's 3001.Feeling a little better about it now...

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 11:42:43 am
content: Suggestion:What if we removed (at least visibly), theTOTALthanks, at least from all visible places and/or the forum server entirely. But kept its display on individual posts.Because the total doesn't really make a lot of sense. There might be a real big wig technical expert, who makes some of the best and technically accurate/helpful posts, on this forum. But who only pops on and makes the odd post or so, every few months. So only has perhaps 22 posts and 5 thanks, in total.Alternatively, there could be someone with 11,565 thanks, who mainly just frequents the Tea thread ( see here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/). Then, gets a huge number of thanks, with little effort.But who might not make the best of posts (they could, but they haven't got time to), in the technical parts of the forum. Compared to the very best of the best, posters on this forum.(Sorry Tea thread people. I'm just trying to explain a point, rather than upset some people).tl;drConsider leaving ability to thank posts, but remove all ability to see thank totals, as it is somewhat meaningless and/or too addicting, in an arguably bad way (***Facebook effect (Addiction and/or Dopamine gains), if you understand what I mean).Alternatively: Give each user an option, which allows them to OPT-OUT of the thanks total capabilities/display for this forum server.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 12:37:56 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 18, 2022, 02:00:53 amUser's down vote count must fade.Can you check how votes are spreading among voters?Like post count, flag and so on.My guess is that in low education level environment a status is more important and more abused.Similarly with answers for newcomer questioneer questions.I think the worst case for the community is when newcomer is disappointing after excitement.That newcomer is very likely lost.My prediction is that with current state Stack Exchange would never have been.Newcomers are not the community, the core is the community.Yes, the core will fade without newcomers but good mood of the community will disappear in a blink without off topic capability, even faster if it is actively blocked.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 03:44:24 pm
content: Downvoting / thumbs down is cancer.Heck, I tend to be quite harsh sometimes and hate wrong information. Yet the last thing I ever want is thumbs down feature of any kind. It will be just abused 95% of the time, downvoted by people who don't know what they are talking about and don't like those who do. It will almost never be based on the actual research on the subject, but emotional instincts instead, because it's so damn easy and quick to click.Besides, even when some reply is utter crap to the point of needing downvoting, I would be tempted to click that button and then job done, that would give the dopamine for "correcting wrong information" without ever having to do the hard work yourself.And it's exactly this hard work, showinghow and whyothers are wrong,and provide the correct information, which is so valuable not only for the OP, but the whole community.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 04:09:39 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 18, 2022, 03:44:24 pmIf I remember correctly. In the same way, the thanks system here, is sometimes used between mutual friends and/or very well liked posters. I've seen fights break out, which just go down hill fast and get worse and worse, just because of down-voting/dislike functionality.E.g. A poster, for quite genuine reasons gives a dislike to someone else's post, somewhere. They then correspondingly downvote a post, by the person who downvoted them, for no good reason at all. Then the other fellow, starts downvotingALLthe posts, the other guy makes. Later a number of well established friends of the other fellow, then ALL give the original guy, lot of negatives/dislikes, for any post they make. Others can then join in. Until total mayhem breaks out, and someone from the moderation team has to step in and start giving people, free of charge holiday/rest periods (I guess you know what I mean).Disclaimer: Part of the reason my recollection of the event(s) I described is so weak/sketchy (and/or the mod team had already cleared up the resultant mess, by deleting information, by the time I got to it. But fragments of what had happened, still remained, if I remember correctly). Is because I thought the whole thing was such complete and utter nonsense, It further motivated me to 'move' to other places on the internet. Why bother with forums that have suddenly had crazy ideas on how to run a forum.tl;drIt seemed to cause terrible in fighting.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 04:13:28 pm
content: I think the "thanks" button is actually sufficient, lets you know your post was useful for somebody, and that's all you need.Usually there're multiple approaches to overcome a problem, it's ok to discuss the the pros and the cons of each method, without anyone pointing to his shiny expert medal.The expert tag on wrong hands would quickly escalate to the typical stone age ego fight, "me know more, me have expert tag, you dumb, me better" and quickly ruin the forum ambient, but also could cause PM nightmares to those "experts"...

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 04:16:54 pm
content: Yes, "thank you" button is already being abused so that the correct and useful answer gets little thanks, but some troublemakers who never technically contribute themselves but only nag to those who do, "thank you" each other's nagging messages. Their game is to make the contributor angry and derail the thread into meaningless bickering. Their greatest success story is when they manage to manipulate a contributor into saying something ugly, then click "report to moderator", manipulate Simon into giving a warning to the contributor (which is quite easy, as Simon has no time or interest of reading pages of worthless bickering). But they usually cannot pull this off, it's like their ultimate goal. I have witnessed this succeeding once or twice.But to put it in perspective, this phenomenon is so tiny, especially on this forum. I think I haven't seen it at all for over a year now! Being gamed this way has been the only single occasion when I seriously considered leaving this forum behind. Glad that I didn't, it was an isolated incident.Dislike button or similar is just so much more powerful tool for this purpose that I would expect it becoming detrimental to the moral of those who do contribute. We are humans with emotions, too.Negativity must be used sparingly, and the best you can do is to couple it to contributing something. Having to write means, you have to at least give some reasons.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 04:29:52 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 18, 2022, 04:16:54 pmI'm an engineer, of course I lack social skills. But the very first down-vote would be my very last. I don't deal well with rejection.I don't care if people disagree with me, reasonable people can disagree. But down-voting is personal and insulting.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 04:51:10 pm
content: @rstoferThat very well matches my experience with the Stack sitesMy first question was essentially iognored, must have been to specialised, my second question got an answer, and actually a couple of upvotes, my third question was downvoted to hell.I have not logged into the site since then. It's admittedly sometimes useful for looking for answers, but i have absolutely no wish to contribute anymore.Enabling downvotes will also create a nightmare for the moderators: People *will* complain. People *will* abuse such a system. And moderators *need* to deal with that.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:01:39 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 18, 2022, 04:16:54 pmYeah, I've have seen my fair share of baiting as well. But I guess this forum has run out of people that allow themselves to take things personally or allow them to be lead into circular discussions. Not a good thing though because some knowledgeble contributors went away.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:04:18 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 18, 2022, 04:29:52 pmMe and my ego can accept very well receiving this:"You are stupid and wrong, you said xxx but really it's yyy, read here why and how..."ESPECIALLY if it is true, and verifiable. If it's putting words in my mouth, then I can at least say so: "I didn't say that, don't play games with me..."This is already harder to swallow:"You are stupid and wrong!"But at least I can reply to it that you are stupid, too.The worst thing is some hit-and-run automation which requires just a button press to nuke me down.Generally, my observation is that engineers "lacking social skills" is codename for engineers lacking socialmanipulationskills. Most engineers I have worked with are really honest and emotional people deep down. This in understandable, psychopaths and sociopaths try to get into position ofmanagingengineers to their advantage.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:20:59 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 18, 2022, 04:29:52 pmAnd, unless the vote system intends to representpopularityand nothing else, it is counterproductive.Consider this: What makes disagreements useful?The answer is, discussing the reasons for the disagreements, so that each position can be compared in objective terms to the current case at hand. Hell, we have over two millenia of recorded experience and thoughts on this process.What does downvoting do? It expresses the disagreement in a way that completely avoids the reasons for the disagreements.Consider my earlier coffee break among coworkers/colleagues, discussing some problem, and someone suggests an approach.If one of the participants then says "I disagree", and immediately walks off, how do you interpret the situation?I think the disagreer is a selfish asshole, because they provided no information, just cast doubt on the discussion. Conflict and strife, not help.At minimum, when someone disagrees, they should state the reason why. In a technical environment, the disagreement alone is purely detrimental. Only if it is accompanied with reasoning, can it be evaluated.A simple disagreement without stating any reasons behind it, in my opinion, is dirty social gaming; an appeal for argument from authority; sowing tension and strife, without any constructive elements. Do you want to be a social site, or a technical site where discussions are intended to be constructive and informative?I like it when people disagree with me, and state their reasons. No, Iloveit. That way I can learn, and better understand things from a new viewpoint. I definitely appreciate a good argument, even if it turns my understanding upside-down and shows just how wrong I was. (Yes, that stings a bit at first, nobody likes being shown wrong, but when one gets over that, the gains in understanding massively overwhelm the initial sting. It is well worth it, in my opinion.)Thus, when 'downvotes' appear on something I believe to be correct, I end up having to do research to verify what it might be about. If I start ignoring the downvotes, I'll be cultivating exactly the attitude I hate. But, without any additional information, it is like being told some code has a bug or a device has a fault –– and absolutely no information on what that bug or fault could be, or how to reproduce it –– and that one should fix it.HOW?My vote for downvoting is thusFUCK NO.Quote from: Siwastaja on February 18, 2022, 05:04:18 pmExactly. I even have anecdotal "proof" of this, of sorts: for a few years, Iwasthe bridge between artists and the technological tools. When team members are honest and direct, and trust each others domains of knowledge and experience, you getreallygood results. Communication isn't an issue, as long as everyone has the courage to be honest and direct, so no social manipulation is involved. (They trusted me, because I told them consistently that nothing was impossible, and instead described the needed work and effort to achieve the result, then suggested alternative options drastically reducing the time and effort needed, perhaps gaining additional useful features, with minimal artistic restrictions. They loved the choices and the control it gave them.)It is when you get a sociopath in the mix, who sees others just as tools or fuel to use to achieve their own goals or worse, as necessary hindrances on their way to fame and/or riches, that the "lack of social skills" claims appear. (Well, also when people are not comfortable with being direct and honest, and instead prefer language that insinuates instead of claims.. but that sort of language is rarelyeffectiveor productive in team-internal communications. At that time, it was accepted that Finns tend to be direct in matters of work and academic pursuits, so it was acceptable to require direct and honest talk; but this has drastically changed within the last decade or so.)A particular example is an award-winning sociopathic "artist"/project leader I had the misfortune to work with, that once sent an e-mail to her team of university students working on a project, admonishing them to "try to be real human beings, not just students". I guess it is easier, too, when you consider the local culture inferior to your own, like she definitely did.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:45:21 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 18, 2022, 05:20:59 pmAssassination by email - you just have to hate it! There used to be a workgroup leader who, whenever she had a problem, copied everybody in the chain of command clear to the president of the organization. Our group lost before we even knew there was a problem. Perhaps the problem could be easily repaired but perhaps it now took a LONG time to get around to it. First we needed to STUDY the problem, and so forth...A simple stop by my office and we could have solved the problem immediately. I truly hate interoffice email! If I owned a company, it wouldn't even have an internal email system. Deal with the problems personally.I also hated our Rohm phone system which would notify callers if their voice mail had been heard. That way the caller would know when you heard their terribly important message. I made a habit of reviewing the caller information before listening and some messages were never heard. I could delete them without listening! Sometimes you just know somebody is going to jam you up just by the fact that they request a receipt.I am so happy to be retired!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 06:01:37 pm
content: Yeah, one thing with email is that you can never assume it's a private exchange, even when you intended it to be. The other person can forward it to others, put them in copy when replying, including hidden copy so you don't even know about it...So using email at the workplace? Do it ONLY if you actually want what you write to be shared to everyone. If not, have a person to person conversation. (Of course they can always repeat what you said to others, but this has nowhere near the same impact as the actual exchange being copied verbatim.)

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 06:04:52 pm
content: If you elect experts by vote you have to make sure the vote is accurate and inclusive and people don't vote twice, or more.Using "thanks" would definitely change the meaning of that "thanked" number, making it political.If you appoint experts you get a "Deep State" situation where the person appointed is in a position of authority with little chance of recall.Either way you would be establishing a hierarchy that is counter to the proper functioning of a "Forum" where any thoughts can be expressed. and all opinions are heard by all interested.Anyway "Forum" comes from the Latin name for the place where public speaking for any purpose was tolerated.Do you want to be "Egalitarian" or "Hierarchical"?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 06:11:24 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 18, 2022, 05:45:21 pmDownvotes remind me of an occurrence when I was a young whippersnapper doing IT support at a University Dept. a quarter of a century ago.One of the teachers had noticed a problem on one of the computers in a classroom (PPC Macs). Instead of letting me know, they decided that a post-it note on the classroom door would suffice. It read: "Nominal Animal, one of the computers has a problem. Please fix."To reiterate, downvotes are NOT USEFUL, unless they intend to gauge popularity and nothing but popularity. And I for one am not interested in popularity contests.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 06:49:08 pm
content: Nominal Animal: I like what you added after the Thanked counter!Very clever!

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 07:03:27 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 18, 2022, 06:11:24 pmSo, what Post-It note did you leave under it for Prof. Dunderheid?

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 07:30:18 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 18, 2022, 07:03:27 pmNormal answer would be:

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 07:33:18 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on February 18, 2022, 07:30:18 pmAre you sure that's not Arch Linux's new advertising picture ?Edit: To be same as copied posts edit(s)

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 08:56:19 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 18, 2022, 07:03:27 pmI was so weirded out, none. Fortunately, I'm so easy to read in person, that when I explained what I had done, I do believe they understood that for me to be effective and maketheirwork easier at all, they should spend at least minimal effort in describing the exact problem, and at least stick it onmydoor instead of some other arbitrary door in the building.The head of the department hated me, and refused my request for a modest budget for replacement keyboards and mice, and instead demanded I go to her directly for every single purchase first. That lead to staff getting fed up with my long replacement times, and when their keyboard or mice had issues, started to just swap them with ones in the classroom, because after all, they were only for students, and they were Paid Staff... But I was to blame, of course, for the several day delays and non-working equipment in the classroom.That sort of treatment for a couple of years leaves its scars even on the strongest of egos, I believe. At least I had a perfect model of what kind of boss never to be or become myself..But, please, do note how these personal experiences are analogous to technical discussions on the net, and what to avoid here on EEVBlog. I'm very serious with the Agree proposal, and that having the numerical statistics (Thanks: counter, and discussed Up/Down voting counters) visible on all posts is definitely detrimental to the forum.(Addendum: I actually implemented online course feedback forms in 1998, with the results in a CSV format that opened in e.g. Excel fine with defaults for easy processing. Most of the lecturers objected to its use, and instead demanded the use of paper forms, because they didn't want to have to learn to use Excel. Yes, several of the lecturers/teachers did have PhDs, and most had at least Masters. I used PHP for the forms and local flat file storage on a server I maintained myself, and the forms worked fine across Windows/Linux/Macs, as I implemented automagic form charset detection for MacRoman/ISO 8859-1/15/Win cp1252 AKA Western European. I did that for free while working as the IT support person for the entire dept, and all I got for that was nasty looks and snide remarks and objections from the staff, noattaboy's even... Teaches me right, eh?)

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 09:31:04 pm
content: "Agree" does not cut it either. If i ask a question and someone answers it or gives a solution to the problem, what is I will be Agreeing to? Using "Agree" would not make sense . I would want to Thank the person, not Agree.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 09:37:30 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on February 18, 2022, 09:31:04 pmI think the idea is that we either have a COMBINED thank/agree button (i.e. just rename 'thank' to be 'Thanks/Agree'), or have two buttons, one for thanks and one for agreeing. Please see Nominal Animals posts for more accurate details.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 09:42:02 pm
content: Life was better when we just posted +1

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 10:22:44 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on February 18, 2022, 09:31:04 pmTrue, but consider this if Thank/Agree was combined into a single button:If you are the asker, then clicking it on an answer obviously emphasizes the Thanks aspect.If you are neither the asker nor the answerer, clicking on the answer emphasizes the Agree aspect.The two areorthogonal. The count (number of thanks/agrees) on any specific question does not matter, but it matters what those who have thanked/agreed have recently posted. If it is the asker, then it is some variant of "Thanks, I believe this is useful". If it is someone else, then it is some variant from "Agreed, this is what I too would have suggested" to "Hey thanks, I think this will be useful for me too". To find out thevalueof such a click on a particular post, you check the recent posts of those who have clicked it for that particular post, to see what kind of stuff they normally post, and how much value that gratitude/agreement has in the context of that particular post.HavingAgreeandThanksseparate, but otherwise functionally the same (and getting rid of the Thanked: counter in ones posts), would be even better, but not technically available right now as far as I know.For example, if I went to the TEA thread, and started Thanking/Agreeing with posts, anyone checking out my posting history can see that I don't actually have any "proper" test equipment; even my "oscilloscopes" are a DSO138 kit (1 Msps, 200 kHz bandwidth, ±50 Vpp) and an Analog Discovery 2 (100 Msps, 10 MHz, ±25 Vpp). Numerically, the weight of my Thanks/Agreed there is basically zero.Now, on the C programming forum, there the situation is completely different, and the weight of my opinion to you is easy to assess from my past posts and associated discussion threads.In every situation I can think of, the difference between Thanks and Agreed is either obvious, or irrelevant.Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 18, 2022, 09:42:02 pmExactly! The total number of such posts (in response to some post or question) is irrelevant; but the fact that a specific member chose to do so, is informative. The relevance and applicability of that information is not trivially visible in the member profile, and one has to read their recent/relevant posts if unfamiliar with their output, but that is the nature of information exchange: each statement and claim must be examined in the relevant context. No shortcuts.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 10:26:02 pm
content: Just a theoretical, not that I want it, but what about something like this:Where the "disagrees" are not tracked in any way outside of that post.Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 18, 2022, 09:42:02 pmIt does clog up the forum, IMO the number of people quoting page long posts has now drastically reduced.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 10:33:00 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 18, 2022, 10:26:02 pmWrong. I will be counting them and posting monthly statistics for everyone to see.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 10:55:34 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 18, 2022, 09:42:02 pmThere's some truth in that.As Groucho Marx put it, "I wouldn't want to join a club that would have me as a member".Fundamentally this whole discussion is about a non-problem that doesn't need to be solved!

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 11:12:31 pm
content: Sometimes an expert can be the wrong person to explain things to a beginner.The thing I’ve often seen, when you are an expert, someone asks a question and you give a reply that makes perfect sense to you, but leaves the question asker totally baffled.Whereas if someone with a few months/years experience, still very much an amateur, reads the question, they may remember how they struggled comprehending the same thing and be able to more easily explain to the beginner in a way the beginner understands.Edit: just read MK14s post 191, their hypothetical question says the same thing, but worded in a much better way

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 11:22:19 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 18, 2022, 10:26:02 pmWhat is the purported value of such indication of disagreement?Earlier, I showed practical examples of why thanks/agreed is useful, but not in numerical form, only when you can check the thankers/agree'ers contemporary posts. (Which means that I seriously believe it would be best if the names linked to the recent posts of that member.)Disagreement has negative value, if the reasons for the disagreement are not listed. (And you're not measuring popularity.)Voting up and down works, if you want to measure popularity. If you want to measure anything else, it does not actually work; it eventually devolves into a popularity contest, as shown in other (technical) forums that implement such. And because humans are social animals, that fosters social gaming, which detracts from the technical discussions. For examples, see StackOverflow and StackExchange network.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 11:30:00 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 18, 2022, 10:55:34 pmGroucho also said:"You can leave in a taxi.If you can't get a taxi, you can leave in a huff.If that's too soon, you can leave in a minute and a huff."So, not an infallible guide to life...

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 11:31:42 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 17, 2022, 06:13:35 pmFor me, I tend to use the Thanks out of politeness if someone responds to a question I asked, if a post I’m reading has been helpful, if I’ve read a random post that I’ve found informative, or if I agree with the poster.So really Thanks can mean many things,

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 11:34:02 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 18, 2022, 11:22:19 pmValue being, if you see a post that has 10 disagreements and no agreements, then likely the information is not accurate and can be ignored.Of course, its not a common occurrence, but it could apply to trolls or "unintentional" trolls and mostly in the beginners section.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 11:45:25 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 18, 2022, 11:34:02 pmAnd that concept is completely defeated by people that thank every post in a thread, including those that are telling them they are an idiot. Yes, there are such posters here, and they are one reason for my "personal statement" underneath the "thanks" count on the left.All such metrics canand willbe gamed.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 11:59:11 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 18, 2022, 11:45:25 pmI don't disagree with your personal statement, the context is a singular post, not a total count.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 12:56:48 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 18, 2022, 11:34:02 pmThat is incorrect, in my experience on Stack Overflow/Stack Exchange. You are associatingunpopularitywithinaccurate, and experience shows the two are not correlated at all in discussion forums.A much more realistic scenario is that answers that do not immediately tell the asker what to type or put into their design or which button to press, get downvoted.Members whose approach or tone is perceived as unpleasant, answers that are perceived as too long or too hard, will get downvoted because of nontechnical reasons.I know this, because it happened to me at StackOverflow and StackExchange. Whenever I engaged anExpertin comments pointing out an error in their answer, I'd get random downvotes in my other answers for the next week or so. Not by that Expert themselves, I don't think, but by arselickers who believe that Authority Knows Best, and arguing with or pointing out an error their Favourite Authority made is impolite and deserving of retaliation. (You know, like when at university, when you asked a tough question from some lecturer, and you'd get some very hostile, deadly stares from other students, because I'm Audaciously Interrupting the Authority.)I have had about a dozen email contacts about my various answers at StackOverflow (Linux + C questions), each one in a topic where I have at most one or two upvotes, where they found my answer extremely useful. This indicates to me that the Vote counts are absolutely NOT RELATED to the usefulness of my answers. They only reflect thepopularity of that answer.Even here on EEVBlog, I've participated in threads (see Programming and Microcontroller sections) where the original asker has been initially quite hostile towards my advice, and given half a chance, would have silenced me. Only thorough patient perseverence and examples have I gotten them to understand their problem, and the details of my suggested solution. If downvotes were implemented, and you'd trust them to indicate anything, I'd be silenced in these.Is the intent to remove members like myself, and push answers towards StackOverflow/StackExchange "tell the OP what they want to hear, or your popularity will take a hit" culture?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 01:10:43 am
content: Very good point. Even when I am asking questions, whatever answer I get even if its off topic, I learn something, and thats the most rewarding thing about being here.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 01:43:18 am
content: Thanks can be “withdrawn” too ya know, as I’ve indicated below my “counter”. People: don’t ever diss me or I’ll go back and un-thank every thanks I ever gave you!Come to think of it my count seems lower than it used to be …

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 01:56:38 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 19, 2022, 12:56:48 amYet that doesn't happen here.Almost any time someone says "OP, you need to post more information, or explain what you are trying to do before we can answer" they get a positive response.As I noted, theoretical "downvotes" are only relevant in that thread, to that post. Outside of that they should have no meaning or value.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 02:01:52 am
content: The thanks that really count are the posts by the OP sincerely thanking a forum member for their input / help. If there were some way to link this style of thanks to a member’s profile, it could be helpful. Maybe a member could go to their own profile and select a thread that person set up and select an option to add a “special thanks” post to their thread that would also show up as part of the profile for those being thanked. In addition, this thanks post could be edited by the OP to add others to the thanked list and with each new addition moved to the last entry.In other words, positive reinforcement for on topic help as viewed by the person helped. I can see a downside where the overly thankful member might need interference from the mods to permanently disable this feature from his profile. Also recipients of such thanks should be able to delete them from their profile.QuoteThe path to finding the answer in many cases the real learning experience that can be helpful for a lifetime. Just getting a quick expert answer is a lot like having an older sibling do your homework for you rather than learning the concept

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 02:15:20 am
content: .

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 02:17:24 am
content: Quote from: cdev on February 19, 2022, 01:10:43 amMe too. I don't like being the only one who answers, because it is those other viewpoints that make for interesting discussions and exploration of the solution space.Now, it can be bewildering to new members and anyone not used to the thread getting too deep into the details if the OP does not actively participate to focus the discussion, and I can definitely see the underlying problem the suggested "designated Expert forum users" and now displayed "Thanks: counts" are supposed to solve: helping new members (and everyone else, really) with tools on how to differentiate between useful answers and less than useful ones.I don't like the numerical count being shown at all, because it is a step too far toward social gamification. Not intentionally, perhaps, but we've seen in other forums how that ends up being the end result.My preferred suggestion (separate Agree button) is not technically available at that point, so instead, to solve that underlying problem the recent change and the suggested designated Expert forum users are intended to solve, I am suggesting tweaking the Thanks button a bit, adding to it an orthogonalsocialpurpose, making it into anThanks/Agreebutton instead. (Or, if you like,Endorse. I don't like it, but it describes the intent, and me fail English anyway.)The trick is that the numerical count is not shown, and that it is up to the readers to decide whether the members who pushed that for a specific post are thanking or agreeing with it (or what kind of mix between the two is intended). Since there is no post, it cannot be too severe an endorsement; just equivalent to a nod, a brightening expression and agreement noises. For anything actually important or meaningful, we express ourselves in text.Because there is no numerical count, new users may initially look for answers that have several endorsers. That is okay, even though it is kinda-sorta misleading. They will soon discover that depending on the subject, it is a good idea to look at what the endorser has posted in other threads, because that helps evaluate the "worth" of the endorsement in each individual case. For example, like if I Nominal Animal were to endorse a post in the TEA thread, while I have basically no test equipment myself, and don't participate in fixing or calibration topics, it's obvious that my endorsement is more of the "Thank you, I find this informative!" sort, than any kind of "I lend credence to this post", because I have none (no credence with respect to test equipment, that is).See? I am proposing a minimally invasive, delicate change (mostly affecting past Thanks, which does worry me) that is easy to fine-tune later on, being just text in the forum interfaces. Yet, because of the above, I truly believe it would at least partially address the underlying issues, and move "posting culture" here in a positive direction (because it makes endorsing existing answers easier, thus hopefully reducing the cases where a suggestion post "ends" a thread with the asker having no way to tell if that is because nobody endorses it, or because others see the existing answer as sufficient but don't want to post a "+1" message).Now, I know I am repeating this. The reason I'm doing so is not because I want Dave to implement this. The reason is that I want to see why others believe this would not work. There are a small number of members who seem to agree this might work –– at least would be test-worthy, similarly to the Thanked: counter now shown ––, but others seem to disagree, or at least do not endorse the idea. I want to know why, because as I above explain, I believe it would solve the underlying problem; and knowing why others disagree would be very valuable information to myself. I am perfectly aware that I may be wrong, and since there are lots of members all over the world here, knowing the reasons to the disagreement would be much more valuable than knowing they (or even how many) disagree.See?Knowing someone disagrees is not useful information.Knowing the reasons they disagree is valuable information.Knowing someone endorses an idea, even mildly, may be useful information.Knowing the reasons they endorse the idea is very valuable information.The second and fourth points are conveyed in posts. The third one is useful, if there is a way to evaluate each endorsement by looking their other posts; thenumberof endorsements is not actually useful, because the 'value' of each individual endorsement varies from not useful to useful. Knowing there areXof them, without any way to quantify them, is deceptive: itlooks and feelsuseful, but is not in reality. As to the fourth point, because there is an infinity of reasons for disagreement, from the color of the bike shed to the typos in the post, with only a small fraction of reasons being valid (technical points related to the subject at hand), it is far more likely that the first (downvotes) will be misused, provably so if there is a numerical counter shown. Downvoting only works if you only measure popularity. Trying to use it for anything else is futile.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 04:48:02 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 19, 2022, 02:17:24 amI think changing it from Thanks might have some value.As for Endorse, I have Thanked posts before not because I endorse or even necessarily agree with them, but because they went to a lot of effort to provide the response.Both a Thanks and Endorse like option would be nice.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 04:57:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 19, 2022, 04:48:02 amYet we've been here before Dave and few wanted their Thanks shown and why would you, how hard is it even for a newbie to research the history of a members reply ?Now it's visible to anyone even if they're not logged in....or would you rather not have members logged in so to reduce the load on the server.The poll even reflects ~2/3rds of members think a badge is a bad idea, a percentage that has increased slightly over the past few days.Then there's those that have taken the piss editing their sig or profile to display what they think of all this.Dunno what you're try to accomplish Dave but the mood of this thread is you need ditch it.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 05:33:50 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 18, 2022, 06:11:24 pmSomeone actually referred to you as “Nominal Animal”, on a note, in ACTUAL REAL LIFE?!That’s either a lie, or if it’s true, I worry about the sanity of those who take their aliases a bit too seriously 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 05:43:19 am
content: It'sMr.Animal to you!

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 06:08:06 am
content: Quote from: eti on February 19, 2022, 05:33:50 amNo. I wrote it in italics, to indicate that in real life, it had my actual first name instead. The other option would have been to write "[Nominal Animal], one of the ..."Apparently, I chose a poor way to indicate this replacement. Apologies.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 06:43:24 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 19, 2022, 04:48:02 amThis is SMF 2.0.18, right? With the "Say thanks" -feature provided by kelvincool'sSay Thanksv1.3.6?If so, creating a variant that differs by the visible texts and the database keys, so that it can safely be installed in parallel with the Say Thanks itself (mostly replacing 'say_thanks', 'saythanks' and upper/lower/camelcase variants with 'i_agree', 'iagree', and similar), would not be much work. (I'd unpack the package in two directories, modify one, and regularly compare the changes with e.g.diff). Most work would be in testing the modified module with a test installation of SMF 2.0.18, since friends don't let friends test any code in production, ever. Since kelvincool licensed the module under CC BY 3.0, this would be perfectly allowed/acceptable/legal, too.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 06:54:13 am
content: The good news is that as long as these various counts just show as a couple of lines under the member ID, probably nobody is going to pay them much attention. One can hope, anyway. I voted "NFW"

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 07:57:32 am
content: Quote from: HobGoblyn on February 18, 2022, 11:12:31 pmThe problem isn't being an expert, the problem is either:Con expertise - remember, true experts understand thevery basicswell, and once you understand something well, it's usually easy to explain, too. Many who act like experts, are actually not, and hence struggle explaining the thing to beginners. Leaving others baffled is a way to hide your incapabilities and make others think you truly must be an expert.Personal unsuitability for teaching others. Teaching is a skill of its own, many just are not good at it. But they sucked at it even when they were beginners themselves. It's not the expertise that took the skill away.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 08:19:32 am
content: If you split "thanks" into "thanks" and "agree", you will be splitting them into four categories next yearPedantry (you can also choose to read it: autism) is what fuels sites like W***pedia and St*ck and pedantry runaway is what inevitably drives even the pedants out of there. Yes, using a single "like" button for every form of positive reaction is silly. But better silly than pedant and no one is forced to use it in the first place - the old "reply" button still works for those willing to put in enough effort to actually elaborate on what they agree with, so as not to look silly by simply clicking "like".Those people will always feel silly by clicking certain canned response buttons in certain situations, no matter how many buttons there are. The solution isn't more buttons, but fewer - they are a silly idea in the first place"Thanks" was supposed to remove pollution with single line posts saying "thank you" or "cool project bro". I ask, where are the threads polluted with single line "I agree" posts?

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 09:58:23 am
content: IMHO, a public display of the "thanks" counter can be a valuable contribution to overall forum climate.As it is public, people will in general seek to increase it. And I think they will find out it helps not to be a total jack-ass.An option to disable the public display for one's personal profile, for those who absolutely despise it, would be welcome.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 10:34:55 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 18, 2022, 02:00:53 amThat's the key question. Hard to solve a problem before you clearly know what it is. It is the same with "thanks". I use thanks to reward someone who put some effort into helping someone. Using it to say "I agree with this" is the thing that needs to be resolved there. It devalues the thanks.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 10:41:37 am
content: Quote from: magic on February 19, 2022, 08:19:32 amThe "I agree" would solve a completely different problem: when someone asks a question, with one or a couple of suggestions, but no further discussion; and to help new members assess suggestions provided (if existing contributing members started endorsing suggestions they consider worthwhile especially in the Beginner forum).Because we do not want to pollute the threads with "I agree" posts,we are now silent, and in many cases leave the askers hanging, with beginners having difficulties in assessing suggestions they receive. Elsewhere, threads often suddenly end with a final suggestion, but nobody can tell exactly why the thread ended there: whether it happened because the suggestion was good, or perhaps because the suggestion is so silly everyone else got fed up with the topic and moved to more interesting things.We cannot tell. The purpose of the Agree/Endorse button would be to help with this.The purpose of an Agree button is to not avoid single line posts, but to solve the above problem. Functionally, the Agree/Endorsement is similar to existing Thanks, but itspurposeis completely orthogonal/independent/separate.I do not know whether the forumneedsit. I do not know whether having separate Thanks and Agree/Endorse buttons is better, or if merging the current Agree button into Agree/Endorse (into Thanks/Endorse, say) is better. I only know that there is an underlying problem (as I once again describe here above), that prompted Dave to consider designating "Expert" Forum Users. How big is that problem, I do not know. But I know that most experienced members that feel comfortable participating here are the most unlikely to perceive that problem, or acknowledge it exists. My own experience says the problem exists. I am suggesting options for Dave to consider, and others to shoot down by showing why the suggestions would not work, and hopefully suggest something that has a better chance of working.I do know that adding upvote/downvote counters will not help with this problem. Thus far, everywhere they've been used that I know of, they devolve into measuringpopularityonly, with minimal to no correlation to usefulness or correctness at all.Claiming that adding this one feature will inevitably lead to a proliferation of such features, and therefore should be rejected, is nonsensical. It is arguing a step should not be taken because it is likely to lead to additional steps and walking that far is undesirable. There is nothing automatic in this, nothing that indicates the one step would be followed by further, similar steps. Adding even a single step like this is very nontrivial.(I know, having looked at the exact sources for the Say Thanks extension, that I could easily craft the new plugin; but the security specialist in me says that Dave would be silly to trustme, someone they've considered a Troll at not so distant past. In fact, my advice to Dave is to not trust anyone without having several eyeball checks by people with experience in server-side PHP, carefully checking and comparing such new extension to the existing Say Thanks one for suspicious differences. I know several members here who could do such checking, but again, the security specialist in me says that me mentioning their names should immediately disqualify them. [I did mention my approach to security issues has been described "paranoid"; but it is effective.])Besides, ifIwere to help with such a new extension, I would only do so if the current Thanked: numerical counter is removed first, because I believe such numerical counters cause more harm than can be regained by a separate Agreed/Endorsement button would.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 10:43:19 am
content: Quote from: thinkfat on February 19, 2022, 09:58:23 amWhich is the exact reason why it shouldn't be displayed (the totals), for anyone.Users should be posting, because they want to, it is fun, they want to help people. If they see the thread starter (OP), mostly/fully ignore the posters in their thread. Those same people will stop posting in that thread (perhaps), and stop replying to that OP.Making people post, because that counter/line GOES UP, UP UP .....Means that they are posting for different (and arguably the WRONG) reasons.So you might get quick, not necessarily that accurate posts, which the poster considers are enough to get more THANKS (counts). But the posts are just quick, not especially useful ones. (Dare I point people to the Tea thread, to see what happens, when the posts are mainly orientated to get thanks, in my opinion). Hence things like,post a cat pictureorpost a dog picture, type of threads.Which can cause (motivate people), to create all sorts of CAT/DOG/RANT/YOUTUBE-VIDEO content threads, to attractTHANKS(counts).Which (can) then leads on to lots of off-topic threads, uninteresting threads for those wanting real technical threads, on a forum they are a member of. It can then attract the wrong sort of new forum members (not trying to be rude, but imagine if a facebook cat lover, joins, just to post in the CAT thread, Cooking Threads area and post crazy/silly electronics questions, which are so hapless, that no one here, can possibly help them).So aTHANKSorientated forum, might sound like a very good idea. The intentions were all there, all good ones. But in practice, it can lead to damage/destruction of the forum, in reality.Example:I'm already fed up with the thanks counter being so visible and feel rather inadequacy being on here, as there are so many, members, with thousands and thousands of thanks. It makes me feel bad. Even though, I know in some cases. It just meant they participated in one of the overly popular threads, and/or have been especially helpful to lots of people.tl;drIt could cause a considerably reduction in the proper/longer/decent technical forum posts. Which some here, are really looking for. Hence an increase in much less useful, Cat/Dog/Tea like threads, which some of us just are NOT interested in, most of the time. (The Tea thread can be interesting, but in a proper technical way, it is more of a quick chat, post a picture and get lots of thanks counts for it, type of thread. From what I have seen of it).N.B. I don't mind there being such threads, but ifTHANKScounts, being visible. Makes such threads, increase out of control. I'd be disappointed.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 11:21:20 am
content: Change for the sake of change is a bad reason. Change must have clear purpose and a structure to achieve that purpose - with minimal negative impact.Even with the efforts made, I still don't see any solutions that stand out as being a clear and valued improvement over what we have now.What I WILL say -and quite emphatically- is that there should NOT be any form of negative scoring. I have little faith in such mechanisms being able to offer anything positive and they have the inherent ability to be weaponised, with (as others have stated) collaborative assaults all too easy to launch.Please, do NOT venture downthatpath.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 02:11:32 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 19, 2022, 10:43:19 amIt is a THERAPY thread. If people say thank it means the post achieved its therapeutic goal !

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 02:15:53 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 19, 2022, 10:43:19 amThose are the users that end up on my ignore list!

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 02:23:41 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on February 19, 2022, 02:15:20 am

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 02:27:22 pm
content: Learning from aDesignatedExpert:

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 02:29:59 pm
content: Cerebus has committed an unforgivable cultural misappropriation.A dog (Cerebus, the dog that guards the gates of hell) Should not be allowed appropriate feline cultureI do like the picture however, very nice.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 02:30:18 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on February 19, 2022, 02:11:32 pmI can think of good things about the Tea thread. They seem nice and friendly to each other, and it seems a fun place to hang out. It just seems crazy, that some of the most prominent, 'help others', forum users here, especially in the beginners section. Only get a relatively tiny percentage of the thanks (i.e. don't reach the forums top 10 most thanked people list), or end up last in it.Whereas the people who do reach the top ten list, with unimaginably high thank counts. Seem to have got it, from the Tea thread, mostly.Analogy:It's like a competition, where the people who get in the top 10 table of that sport, get there, NOT because of being good at that sport (i.e. helpful posts in the beginners thread), but because of getting points for appearing on TV interviews, and sports CHAT shows (i.e. the Tea thread and so on).tl;drThe thanks total may be measuring the wrong parameters. So making it show up on everyone's forum icon post thing. Is just rubbing salt into the wounds.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 02:37:28 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on February 19, 2022, 09:58:23 amHow often, in real life, is the jack-ass highly popular with their particular in-crowd? Think of the loud rugby/hockey/whatever player at college who was cheered on in their idiocy by by all the other players while the rest of the world went "Oh no, not him again!" as he bellowed his way into the bar? Their friends would up-vote them and with no countering down-vote they wouldappearuniversally popular. So, no, there's no reason that the total jack-asses will be kept in check by a public display of "thanks".

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 02:38:18 pm
content: Just to add my voice to a solution: the thanks system is almost perfectly OK, with the big fault that it is 'thanks'. For what? For answering, for not going off-piste, for thanking my post? IMO, 'thanks' is not appropriate because it's too wishy-washy and undescriptive.I would vote for ed.k's 'valuable' suggestion. I would be very much happier to mark a post as 'valuable' than give the poster arbitrary and unknowable thanks. Make it like Stack Exchange where the rightness of an answer (or just some off-topic off-the-wall post) is, well, valuable.'Valuable' has meaning where 'thanks' does not. There have been many posts where I would have liked to say "this is a great post" but 'thanks' is not the way to do that. Marking them valuable would have been a no-brainer.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 02:40:11 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 19, 2022, 06:08:06 amIt was perfectly clear to the rest of us.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 02:49:01 pm
content: Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on February 19, 2022, 02:29:59 pmNo, that's Cerberus (Kerberos, Κέρβερος). BlameDave Simfor the spelling, and my friendsMike Collinsand Kev Trease for me acquiring it as a nickname.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 02:49:13 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on February 19, 2022, 02:27:22 pmThanks!!!The first video is so, so funny. On the other hand, I've given you thanks for creating something, not directly connected to Electronics or helping beginners.The second video seems interesting, but is taking a while to watch.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 02:53:19 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 19, 2022, 02:30:18 pmThe nub there is a single 's', as in parameters. The thanks count is not measuringoneparameter, but several, perhaps even including some that are diametrically imposed. (e.g. "social affability" versus "ability to challenge popularly held but incorrect factoids")

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 03:03:12 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 19, 2022, 02:38:18 pmValuable literally means "having a value". When I want to indicate I "Agree" with the poster it does not automatically means the post "holds a value" to me that I could make a use of. I just happened to be of a same opinion with the poster.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 03:44:28 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 19, 2022, 02:37:28 pmLike, Nigel Farage?(I'm so, so sorry, I just could not resist the bait).However, this forum is not your stereotypical pub environment and the people here are not in general the college jock type who get their ass handed to them by a wimp bitten by a radioactive spider.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 04:15:05 pm
content: If you want to have a Social Score attached and displayed here, fine, I don't. If you think avalidation counterwon't change the behavior on this particular forum, you are wrong. It changed the whole planet already.Any "score" is mind conditioning on long term. It slowly erodes people's personality and steer it towards maximizing a score instead of just posting here because it's fun and interesting. Pavlovian conditioning works on humans too, not only on dogs.Seems like everybody lost the plot here:- designated expert was voted as wrong- thanks counter was voted already to be kept hiddenYet we keep talking how to (re)name the Thanks.And this is not a school, and nobody named any of us as the defender of beginner'spotentialdamage. This is all bullshit, and it won't increase the popularity or the money income. In long term it will destroy the community AND the EEVblog forum.I don't want to be anInfluencer, and I don't want to be turned into a "Thanks Whore" either, or to lurk around places where people's behavior is driven by a score instead of genuine human interaction. Won't add more to this.

author: Sredni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 04:27:39 pm
content: Yep, to keep egos out of the picture, the judgement should be on the answers alone.And it does not matter that there would be only a positive evaluation, this being a 'back and forth' forum. In fact, is someone posts something likeQuotesomeone else might post belowQuote

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 04:41:44 pm
content: Do not kill youself making judgements. Read a post and move on with your life. Garanteed - tomorrow noone will remember who posted what yesterday.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 05:00:04 pm
content: IMO this could quickly become problematic arms race between who is the top expert of experts in this or thatMy so called expertise tapers off in the 1990s with fall in the use of thru hole components & the rise in SMD. making todays electronics way too diversefor any one individual to comprehend it all ,as I see it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 05:20:52 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 19, 2022, 04:48:02 amBut what is your goal? How would this improve the EEVblog forum in your view? Should this thank/endorse feature even apply to all sections?The parallels with Stackexchange have been brought up repeatedly; keep in mind that Stackexchange is also under much heavier moderation to keep discussions on-topic.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 05:58:07 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 19, 2022, 10:41:37 amWell, in such case I simply drop "thanks" to the poster who has relieved me of posting something I fully agree with. I'm not the only one.And frankly, more often than that, I just roll my eyes at the utter inability of the OP to communicate and a dozen people trying to second-guess what the problem really is and writing walls of text which the OP likely doesn't need and may not even understand. Maybe that section is not really for me, but I read a lot of it. Also, maybe, just maybe, similar reasons exist why many others don't bother endorsing posts which have already been made.Maybe the "thanks" button should simply be renamed "like" as on You Know Where, as that appears to be the best overall fit to how people use that thing in practiceeditMK14, did you set up some bot to automatically like all my posts as soon as they are up?Maybe I should like yours in return?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 06:10:21 pm
content: How about an 'opt out' option? I don't want to be graded by my peers and certainly not be newbies. I'm willing to give up the ego points to avoid grading. Just print '*' chars instead of a number. Or, cause the field to overflow and maybe the default is to print asterisks. Fortran does!There was more but I used the Cut feature.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 06:17:17 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on February 19, 2022, 03:03:12 pmIt is whether the post has value to others - you know yourself if it's useful or valuable to you, this is about letting others know you think the information in it is valuable in relation the the thread. It is a decent answer, perhaps, or explains something well.I would also suggest that users' 'valuable' count isn't shown (as the thanks count is now). It's not about who posted and entirely about the content, which stands alone.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 06:35:13 pm
content: .

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 06:43:28 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 19, 2022, 06:17:17 pmI don't disagree with the former, but if you like forums that are entirely about the content which stands alone, why not try 4chan instead? That's their mantra

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 06:44:03 pm
content: Quote from: Sredni on February 19, 2022, 04:27:39 pmThat's indeed yet another issue with scoring and status flags. They are largely dependent on the person and not just the individual contributions themselves. That's a well know social effect. The exact same answer from two different people with different social images and status will usually get very different reactions.You can see this all the time in all situations. But just on this forum, the same happens. In many threads, you'll see several people basically posting the same answer. Some will get a 'thanks', some won't (and no, not necessarily following posting order). What's the value in that? Is adding more buttons and flags going to make things better? I doubt it.But I'm not surprised Dave got this kind of suggestion. As I said, many people these days just want quick answers to their questions, without having to further work on understanding the answers, checking that they are relevant. They just want quick recipes and move on. That's the opposite of learning.And, flags and counters are useless if you are a regular on a forum and half know the other regulars and their usual contributions. So that "need" arises mainly from the non-regular users, a number of which fall into the above category; they'll post once, will want quick and authoritative answers, will not even reply back, and you'll never see them again. Until next question.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 06:49:03 pm
content: QuoteThe value of the post in relation to the thread. Not the forum, not the poster, not other threads.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 06:53:05 pm
content: QuotePart of it may be not to reward a poster who is usually a pillock, but often it's merely which post one comes across first. People often drop into threads at random posts (where 'random' may actually mean 'latest') so just because one post was entered first that doesn't mean it's the first that will be seen. The first actual post may never be seen by the thanker.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 07:11:43 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 19, 2022, 06:49:03 pmIn whose opinion? Do I even care about their opinion? Hint: I'm too old to care!This whole topic is about drive-by questions (and ego points but I'll let that rest awhile). The OP has an ill defined problem and often doesn't reply back when the other users have questions that need to be resolved before a solution can be proposed. As stated above, they don't want to learn the approach to finding a solution, they want a quick number. A hit-and-run question...And they haven't even tried Google. All of human knowledge is available on Google including an answer to their question. Quick self-survey, how many times have you used a Google link to answer a question without adding much personal content? Sometimes Wikipedia has really good explanations.Even reading the Wiki seems to be too much effort, they just want a number and they want somebody else to do the work for them. And complain when they don't get it in the first reply. So they want to identify the experts and will probably wonder why none of them have responded. Are the experts really going to get involved with every question posted in every forum? It's going to be a full time job!Numbers guys: What is the average number of new threads opened per day?

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 07:27:34 pm
content: .

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 08:01:49 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 19, 2022, 07:11:43 pmSo, they can go an Google or read a book or... why bother coming here at all when all the answers are Out There just waiting for a simple search?We are discussing beginners (no necessarily in electronics, but maybe just a different niche that is new to them). Often a problem is ill-defined because they don't know enough about it to know what's relevant, useful or just waffling. Maybe if they can post something on-track someone will point out exactly what extra is needed, or where to go for a better resolution or something.If you can't abide people coming on to ask apparently dumb or useless questions, and demand their google search history before accepting they've already researched the stuff, maybe you could just not join that thread. Ignore them and either someone else will sort them out or no-one will, but it's no skin off your nose.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 08:37:19 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 19, 2022, 06:17:17 pmIf nobody can see it, who does see it? And what does it mean if only the author of a reply can see it? Why keep a statistic and then hide it? After all, we're trying to tag the experts without flashing their username in bright colors and somehow super-size their replies. Ordinary users won't have a valuable count because the experts will have already posted the correct answer - by definition.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 08:49:36 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on February 19, 2022, 07:27:34 pmI don't even think it's globally efficient. It just makes people increasingly dependent instead of helping them get independent to some degree, which IMO learning is all about.And making people dependent is itself a "modern mantra."

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 08:52:07 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 19, 2022, 08:01:49 pmI think my track record is a little better than that but...Where would you expect to get a better introduction to Ohm's Law? Here or on one of the myriad sites that have videos, examples and a lot of explanation? It sure wouldn't be here! Nor should it be. It's been done, it's out there and Google can find it.Now, if you want to know how to apply Ohm's Law to the bias of a Class A amplifier using a 2N3904 with emitter degeneration, this might be one of the best sites for that kind of thing. There are some folks here who really add content to that discussion. But it's not going to be a simple "use these resistors" kind of answer (probably). There might even be some arithmetic involved. Probably some discussion. It won't be a hit and run answer.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 09:04:25 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 19, 2022, 08:01:49 pmFor the diversity in the replies. There isn't just one expert answer, there are usually several people involved and the discussion wanders all over the place. That's a good thing! It won't give the OP a single numeric answer from a single source but it will expose multiple solutions, some better, some less costly, some already built. Check the Porch Pirate thread in Beginners. The OP had a solution, mine was cheaper and faster. It was completely opposite of what the OP thought he wanted but just posting an alternative point of view may have added value to the thread.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/anti-porch-pirate-alarm/I didn't even attempt to stay on track, I proposed an alternative. That's why people should come here - diversity of opinion. Lots of diversity...

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 09:23:56 pm
content: Google is of course a good source of information. If you're able to "drink from the hose", that is. It's like the "all-seeing, all-knowing trash heap". It gives a lot of answers. Are those good answers? Who knows. Which is why people come here in the hope of getting a "good" answer.A "good" answer is not necessarily an expert answer. A good answer is one that puts them on the right track.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 09:42:48 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on February 19, 2022, 09:23:56 pmAgreed. Even if the answer is just a link to an article with good content. Internet is filled with garbage and sifting through it to find the good stuff is a skill in itself.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 09:50:45 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on February 19, 2022, 09:23:56 pmThe problem, if you're a total beginner in a subject area. Is that you don't know the terms to put into Google, in the first place.E.g. Things I sometimes see on here, but example is made up, rather than an actual poster.They want a device to make voltages bigger. They don't know that it would be called an amplifier, op-amps are commonly used to make them, and they can be made (with significant difficulty), via discrete transistors.But A true beginner, might be so vague with their terms, it could confuse google and/or they wouldn't know which answers are correct. E.g. A device which makes small electricity into bigger electricity, suitable for driving a sound making device.I just tried it, and Google came up with:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmplifierBut there are many cases where Google just can't help.E.g. You want a particular clip type, for fixing a pair of transistors together, and don't know what it is called. But have seen it in some radios. Also why do they clip transistors together like that ?A beginner might ask. A more experienced person expert might say it is because the old Germanium Transistors, changed their characteristics a lot with temperature, so the clip is to help stabilize the circuit.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 09:56:48 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on February 19, 2022, 09:23:56 pmOP questions are more interesting if there is some display of effort before posting. "Here's what I did, here's what I got and here's what I want" shows effort. A simple "Here's what I want" may not be as interesting. If questions aren't interesting, there may not be as many replies. Perhaps questions get more interesting as the replies pile in.Apparently, the OP should be able to filter the replies and reject all that aren't from experts. As I understand it, that is the objective. But, hell, if all my effort is going to be ignored, why bother replying at all? Let the experts do the work! Who's the expert for driveway alarms?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 10:13:25 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 19, 2022, 09:50:45 pmThere's nothing wrong with admitting your Google Foo failed. It happens all the time. One missing term and all you get is nonsense. For the amplifier, including "signal" in the query helps focus the replies. But it still shows effort! "I searched for <some query> and didn't get the results I want. I want to increase the signal voltage of a <some input device> to <some output>." It shows effort! At least the question is coherent.On the list of things, poorly framed questions is pretty far down. You're right, absolute beginners won't have any idea about how to frame a question. And that's OK but that's why we need multiple replies to help the process along. One expert answer might just blow the poster away. Another beginner (or near beginner) may provide just the response the OP needs. "I was working on that very thing last week. Have you tried ...".It seems to me that what we have is working in the vast majority of cases. Replies are plentiful, adequate and, most important, respectful. It's working well, let's not break it.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 10:54:15 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 19, 2022, 08:37:19 pmThe author, on his profile page.QuoteIt means the author feels good (or not if he has a zero count, maybe). Isn't that enough?QuoteYes, quite, let's just not keep the static at all. But some people will whine, and it is nice to know that one is appreciated, so it's not entirely surplus. But why would you want the world to know the count unless it's to massage your ego? That way is heading to the thing we're trying to prevent: playing the stats.QuoteEr, no we're not. That was a suggestion to help beginners because they can't tell from the myriad (hopefully!) responses which are bullshit and which are pukka. The first solution was "we can sey XXX is an expert so their replies count more than anyone elses", but as pointed out earlier that could be a forum killer.What we are actually trying to do is not identify users with badges but the content which is appropriate and useful. That may or may not come from alleged experts, and you only have to look at a recent windy exchange as to how apparently knowledgeable users can spout complete rubbish in the face of contrary evidence.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 10:58:36 pm
content: QuoteAs a beginner I might not know I need to learn about Ohm's Law. But maybe someone will tell me "Hey, you really need to know Ohm's Law and a good video introduction is xxx". Maybe that would give me a clue on what to google, too.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 11:00:58 pm
content: One of my pet hates is when someone asks something and someone else responds with a sarcastic answer along the lines of “a 5 second google ………”First it’s rude,Second, it could be argued that 95% + of technical forum questions could be answered by googling, probably 99.9% when it comes to beginners, so why bother having say a beginners section in the first place, why not simply have a message telling beginners that all their questions can be answered by using google.Third, very often a beginner doesn’t quite understand exactly what they are asking, hence isn’t sure on what to actually google.A 3D printer Facebook group I belong to, the owner recently posted the following———————————————————————————NOTICE:There was an instance yesterday where a beginner was ridiculed for not knowing what another member decided he should know and un-kind comments were made.I have guaranteed since the creation of this group that all members will have a pleasant experience here. Do not treat this group like others on Facebook I will not tolerate any user being unkind, telling users to use Google, telling users to RTFM, making smart comments. I will not give any warning, if I see it, or am informed about such behaviour from a moderator or admin, I will immediately ban members from this group without warning.There is no such thing as a dumb question and I do not care how many times its been asked before. Either answer the question or post nothing.New and inexperienced users are welcome in my group and can ask any questions they feel they need to ask without fear of ridicule.

author: Carel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 11:15:33 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 19, 2022, 10:43:19 amAlways watch out with assumptions, with your facebook cat lover.In my second post (in cats) I explained what my activities were. Maybe someone else was interested, doing the same. DIY pet RFID is a vanishing thing on the internet. So be it. So I tried if it came up to help other people with other problems and if it came up, post a picture of my cats. People wanted unique photo's, not internet grabs.So now I have these strange and wrong statistics on the left side of my post. Just because someone tries to make somehow statistics work, where you should'nt apply them. It is a stain.And the horrible look this discussion gives inside of the workings of a forum. Any, if that makes you feel better.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 11:32:04 pm
content: Quote from: HobGoblyn on February 19, 2022, 11:00:58 pmBut its not rude to walk into a public area and ask a question so banal that it could be answered by googling the exact terms the OP uses? It shows stupidity and a desire from the OP to do no work, and someone who will likely just ask again and again with every little thing. Perpetuate/support/cultivate that and you have a forum full of crud and very little interesting content to bring/keep the knowledgeable people in.Contrast with these better explained examples:Quote from: rstofer on February 19, 2022, 09:56:48 pmQuote from: rstofer on February 19, 2022, 10:13:25 pm

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 01:14:49 am
content: And then there is the Sticky at the top of the Beginners forum "NEWBIES PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING" - with over 300k reads. It suggests the same show of effort as in my posts above! It suggests that newbies put as much info as possible in the question and admonishes more advanced responders to be polite.It seems to be working well. I don't ever recall seeing a question get hammered. Sometimes they seem a little barren but it usually works out over the first few replies.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 01:24:45 am
content: QuoteSmall pedantic correction - it asks 'regulars' to be polite. 'Admonish' is telling off after the fact (which, admittedly, could be appropriate in some cases).

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 01:25:05 am
content: Quote from: HobGoblyn on February 19, 2022, 11:00:58 pmUsually by the same kind of people who get on better with computers than with other people.The thing is that all people are different, I can happily sit down and learn how to do something practical (pottery say) from a book, whereas my other half would much, much prefer to learn it from another person, so goes and takes a class somewhere. So I do my things my way, she does hers her way. Neither of us feels the need to throw little passive aggressive barbs at each other the way that the "Let me Google that for you" kind of person does.Some people are just happier talking to another human being to find things out, some people are happy to help them with that, why can't the "Let me Google that for you" crowd just leave them to get on with it? When faced with the choice of "say nothing" or "indulge in a bit of petty, pointless spitefulness" why would anyone decent pick the latter?I can understand if it happens in the middle of a conversation, where it has become apparent that the person you are actively trying to help has simply opted to get you to "do their homework for them", but to just commit a drive-by passive-aggressive LMGTFY potshot is a sign of someone with some worrisome antisocial tendencies, or, as our German cousins say,eine Backpfeifengesicht.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 01:28:45 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 20, 2022, 01:24:45 amThe dictionary says "warnor reprimand someonefirmly" (Emph. mine), so I reckon the original usage is OK.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 01:30:07 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 19, 2022, 10:58:36 pmThat is exactly what is likely to happen here. I've seen it and I've done it. There are some wonderful resources on the Internet. Many times folks have lamented their lack of math skills and I have pointed out some excellent resources. But the reply assumes that the reader actually wants to improve their skills.A 10 minute video trumps a 2 paragraph explanation (almost) every time. For electronics, I like Dave's "Fundamentals Friday" series and w2aew has some great videos as well. I think Dave's explanation of op amp operation is about as good as it gets.

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 01:31:40 am
content: Everyone has some level of "expertise" in several topics, some issues are so simple that even another newbie can help before look for an expert.The main problem here on eevblog forum is that very few people are experts in being Polite and prone to help others.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 01:38:03 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 20, 2022, 01:28:45 amFair cop. Mine does too

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 02:02:02 am
content: Quote from: HobGoblyn on February 19, 2022, 11:00:58 pmIt is not. It is a hint towards asking a better question. IOW: show that a bit of work was done before asking for help.Tie a man's shoes and he can walk for a day. Learn a man to tie his own shoes and he can walk for the rest of his life.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 02:49:19 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 20, 2022, 02:02:02 amYes, but tie a man's shoelaces together and he will fall on his face. That is what could happen if we allow just any random non-expert to answer a beginner-type question.[just kidding, I still don't like the "Expert" meter]

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 02:50:01 am
content: Quote from: Trader on February 20, 2022, 01:31:40 amWhere does that come from? I've only been here for about 6 years (new guy) but I just haven't seen anything resembling impolite or unhelpful. If this board were impolite, I would have been gone a long time ago. This stuff is for fun and if it isn't fun there's no point in doing it.Now, every once in a long while somebody has a bad day but it certainly doesn't seem endemic to me. If I want to see rude or impolite, I can just go to Stack (Overflow or Exchange). Besides, the moderators can be ruthless when people go too far around the bend - or so I have read.This is a family oriented site and everybody is welcome. Mostly it's just for fun with a little serious thrown in just to add flavor.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 03:08:38 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 20, 2022, 01:38:03 amSee, there you go! Tearing into an old guy's choice of words. Geez... You realize I am a protected species, right?And then I have to go look up the British expressions... "Two nations separated by a common language" - George Bernard Shaw

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 03:12:10 am
content: Dave, I hope you don't mind, I edited the poll to enable users to change their original vote. I think this thread has some good discussion and people might want to amend their original stance.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 03:57:56 am
content: Hmmmm... Many good responses, a lot of discussions, some have morphed into adding a button...Is Dave pulling our leg?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 04:58:46 am
content: I do not like the numerical counters about a poster shown with each post. The number of posts is neutral, and if anyone makes any qualitative inferences based on that, it's on them.However, why show the Thanked count, or any other similar count? What is its purpose?I do not believe the count has any worth. The only thing I see having worth is when a post is made, and some members have Thanked it, is that one can easily look at their recent posting history to easily evaluate the value of that mark to myself, with just a couple of clicks/taps.I recommend this approach to everyone, especially to new members, even when there is no Thanked list, and only have the post and the name of the member who made that post, to go by: when they get a response, and have difficulty determining how to approach that response, they should just look at the recent posts by that member, to determine the context. This is not stalking, this is seeking understanding of where the suggestion stems from.This might even reduce the occurrence of the unfortunate "who are you to claim that" -type of discussions, that often stem from insufficient or misunderstood context.I believe adding the Thanked: counter is a wrong move. Re-reading most of the posts here, I think the change that has the best probability of achieving desirable results, is to just reword the "Say thanks" button and "The following users thanked this post:" text (and "Thanked" in the member profile page) slightly; plus additional advice to members on how the button is intended to be used.What should be the modified text be, then? Note that we don't want to make any drastic changes, because the button has been in use for quite some time, and it would be nasty to retroactively try and change what they meant. Thus, I think it should only adding alternate positive meanings, corresponding to the different alternate positive uses it is already been used for; choosing the ones that might help with the underlying issue that started this thread.Me fail English to whip out a brilliant suggestion here. All I can come up with is something like "Tap this post as Useful/Interesting/Worthwhile/Noteworthy/Nice", replacing "Thanked" with "Tapped".(Tag would be nicer, but it is already used in SMF in another way, so using it here too would be confusing.)The idea is that it is up to the Tapper and the reader to decide which one of the possible positive connotations they intended, as there would not be any way to markwhythe post was tapped. No counters would be shown, only the linked member names who have Tapped that particular post.The purpose is to add positive ambiguity, which can be resolved either by posting and asking for clarification, or by examining the other posts by said member(s) to understand the context. The intent is that this pushes members slightly in the direction offinding out moreby asking or examining what the member has posted around that time –– this being the real-world equivalent of listening a bit more to find out what the speaker is talking about; plus, to mark posts that are useful/interesting/worthwhile/noteworthy/etc.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 05:03:08 am
content: Joke: I have an idea, if someone wants instant official answers, just setup one of those chat bots and feed it all the data on this board then they'll have their official answer and nobody will feel left out or devalued because it comes from everybody's contributions.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 05:48:33 am
content: With all this talk about experts.......... I want to know who's going to be the new Czar of Bandgaps???https://www.electronicdesign.com/archive/article/21799031/whats-all-this-czar-stuff-anyhow

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 05:55:57 am
content: I think having the number of times somebody has been thanked on display is silly, you can count me out anyway. It would be better if it were an option in the users profile for those who like to boast about their contributions.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 06:00:50 am
content: I have just noticed this sticking out a bit:QuoteI don't know why but I don't... like to see it all the time.So I hid it, .QuoteI am sorry I know whoever put it there mean't well and I don't mean to put down your efforts.Someone maybe thanked many many times in figures but that might not mean anything to me especially if their expertise maybe on one part of the board and they happened to be commenting outside of theirs in a different subject or topic elsewhere but if I see a post with lots of thanks then that tells me whatever it is is trusted.A bit like this one from Gnif:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/android-phones-what-a-mess/msg4017409/#msg4017409QuoteI wanted to post something there about the new AndroidCamera"app" I saw in an advert but it got locked and I found Gnif's post official and trustworthy sounding backed up by the users and the amount thanking it.I have an idea and I think it was mentioned by someone earlier in this thread, give them some title after a certain amount of thanks but a title name relevant to where they post and are thanked for and I'd think it would be nice to think of other wordsthatthan just "expert".Quote from: Muttley Snickers on February 20, 2022, 05:55:57 amI see have seen some already doing that with their footers.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 10:36:34 am
content: I'm sure someone has figured this out already..but who has the highest thank/post ratio?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 11:11:39 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on February 20, 2022, 10:36:34 amNo idea, but I loved "Spanked: 5280 times" on your profile.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 11:12:43 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 20, 2022, 11:11:39 am.... Not enough to get a "thank"

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 02:41:49 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on February 20, 2022, 11:12:43 amI considered changing mine to "Wanked 299 792 458 times", but thought that was a bit too rude.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 02:43:43 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 20, 2022, 11:11:39 amI still don't understand what is the final goal here.If newcomer beginners are those who needs to be protected then say it.It seems to be inevitable that one day the staff must destroy what users have created.There time seems to be a pivotal factor.E,important typo.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 03:08:23 pm
content: Quote from: tpowell1830 on February 20, 2022, 03:57:56 amI think it has already been decided. This discussion will not change it.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 04:15:57 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on February 20, 2022, 03:08:23 pmThe sky will fall, the world will end, we'll all turn into score whores.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 04:25:45 pm
content: What i find odd here: The majority of people in this thread, and of the votes, is against this.Apparently the thanks counter "has been voted off the island" once before.And yet, here it is again. Sure, Dave can do here what he wants. But why *ask*, if you want to implement such a thing anyway?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 04:40:44 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on February 20, 2022, 04:25:45 pmYou're right, it is disappointing.But they may be unsure/undecided how to proceed, or they are just going to proceed anyway/regardless.Some members seem to be floating about technological solutions, which I believe suppress some/all of the unwanted displays from appearing. They haven't been very clear on how to do it (to people unfamiliar with what they are talking about). But it is something like adding a block/script line(s) to an ad-blocker, or something.I suppose, once the dust settles and time passes. Others can find out what they were talking about and remove the unwanted bits by force, or spend less and less time here.If the quality of the questions and/or posts deteriorates, some members would be put off, from hanging out here.Predictions/Psychology can be hard, so although it might theoretically seem bad. Some of our predictions, might not turn out as badly as we thought.It can't be that easy, being the person responsible for running the whole thing.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 04:43:17 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on February 20, 2022, 04:15:57 pmYou do not see the writing on the wall, do you.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 06:35:10 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on February 20, 2022, 04:43:17 pmYes, I do...I wonder what is to become of the non-experts. I'm not an expert in anything, I have never worked a day in my life in the electronics arena. I made my way in construction, typically building/operating wafer fabs and other technical facilities. Nothing of value around here.Sure, I took the classes and got a bunch of paper but it was a LONG time ago. Hardly relevant to today's focus. Hint: the 8080 was king and the Altair 8800 was just introduced. Hardly relevant! So, how much paper should an 'expert' have and at what point is it no longer relevant? Is paper even required?I can't even imagine what will happen if the anointed expert gets the wrong answer. I learned a valuable lesson in the Army - "Never volunteer!".If the discussion starts and stops with the expert's post, it will be a huge loss to the site.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 07:59:17 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on February 20, 2022, 04:43:17 pmI don't even see a wall. What I see is an experiment going on and I trust Dave to end it if it turns towards Armageddon.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 10:34:36 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 20, 2022, 06:35:10 pmJoke: No answers... responses but thread not going anywhere? hit the "report to moderator" button enough times and you may get an official answer.That's it, rename "report to moderator" to "seek official answer" and just have one button on the thread.If I trust anyone to give an "official" answer it would be Dave and people who help run this site.It would be nice which I think already happens for Dave himself to present official answers from experts (the users here on this forum) and outside sources such as manufacturers through his videos and comments.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 11:04:39 pm
content: My real fear with all of this is not what Dave decides to do, but why? Is he looking for or being pursued by a suiter? AAC when that way with EETech Media; ETO and EDAboard were acquired by WTWH Media. What's EEVBlog future?

author: ANTALIFE
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 11:21:42 pm
content: Only if I can become a Rare Meme ExpertTM©

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 11:52:46 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on February 20, 2022, 11:04:39 pmIt's in the first post. Someone asked about it and it kinda had some merit so I asked here.But I am considering competing offers from Klaus Schwab at the WEF, Bill Gates, the Koch brothers, Blackrock, and some guy who looks remarkably like a lizard. I'm kinda erring on the side of the lizard guy.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 12:00:23 am
content: It's David Ike in a mask, don't believe a word he says! Well, that or you've been contacted by the British royal family.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 12:09:00 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 20, 2022, 11:52:46 pmOmission of Zuckerberg says it all.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 12:54:07 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 20, 2022, 11:52:46 pmI am an octogenarian hobbyist and have lived through the transformations of ETO, EDAboard and AAC. How much would it take ($) to keep EEVBlog a community site (with updated software) the same? Maybe a GoFundMe or similar crowd funded site is an alternative?John

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 12:54:49 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 20, 2022, 11:52:46 pmYet when I emailed you a few months back about an extremely interesting new member suggesting you approach him for an Amphour interview I get back squat !And someone suggests you change the forum and we go through all this BS ?Notice the #'s against are still rising or do the rose tinted glasses prevent that ?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 01:12:39 am
content: Whatever the outcome, I'vethoroughlyenjoyed the discussion thus far.(I, too, may add a simple Ublock Origin filter to hide the count, just to make sure it doesn't affect myself: I'm too easy to socially manipulate using tools like that. Everything I've suggested here is not to makememore comfortable, though. I've only considered the underlying issues as a problem to solve for everyone, concentrating on the idea of least negative effects for anyone.)

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 01:25:32 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 21, 2022, 12:54:49 amDave gets a ton of emails every day as you can imagine. Sometimes it's days before even I get a reply. Also, running a business like his means he has stacks of competing priorities depending on what's happening that week.I'm sure you weren't simply ignored.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 02:17:22 am
content: We talked about that 'other' site and their approach - there are separate forums under the umbrella of "Go Ask The Expert" with several topics and associated experts. Anybody can pose a question, only the dedicated expert can reply. These run in parallel with the more community forums. Of course, anybody can post a question there as well.So, if you want diverse opinions, post to the community forums, if you would prefer a more expert opinion, and you don't mind waiting, there are the expert forums,This has the advantage of keeping the community oriented forums open,

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 02:20:56 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on February 21, 2022, 12:54:07 amGee, chill out a bit.Nothing is changing.Here is how this works, and it's been the same for the last 12+ years this forum has been going. Occasioanlly I will get an idea for a change/improvement, or someone will suggest one, and unless it's absolutely minor I will put a poll on the forum so the community can vote on if it's worth pursuing or not. Many people even start their own threads on suggested changes and discuss it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 02:24:50 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 21, 2022, 12:54:49 am"All this BS"? it's a simple poll asking if it's an idea worth pursuing, been done a hundred times on here in the past, chill out.Sorry I didn't reply, I don't know why I didn't. And I just saw your email again recently and have actually contacted the person to come on the amp hour.Often I read email and don't have time to reply right then, so I set it back to Unread hoping to get back to it, or I mark it Unread so it stays in my inbox. And then, well, shit happens.And BTW, you might be very embaressed to find out who actually suggested this and under what circumstances.QuoteWhat is your problem? Where have I ever said I'm going through with this? Show me the post. It was very clear from the first hour that it wasn't popular, so it's not going ahead. If you are complaining about the 14 page thread this is turned into, then no one is forcing you to read it. Discussion like this often lead to interesting ideas for improvement not related to the original idea.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 03:27:13 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 21, 2022, 02:24:50 amExcellent, I really hope you and the show find his past professional life as interesting as I do.QuoteTry me, privately if you prefer.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 03:51:25 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 21, 2022, 03:27:13 amNope, the joke is all mine

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 04:51:16 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 20, 2022, 11:52:46 pmI, for one, welcome our new lizard overlords.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 05:08:43 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on February 21, 2022, 04:51:16 amBugs are yummy.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 05:10:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 21, 2022, 02:24:50 amMaybe there are people that haven't had the experience of being asked their opinion and having it listened to.As Dave said, the idea proposed is not going ahead. It was run up the flagpole to see how many would salute it and how many would shoot it down. From the crunch of all the brass under foot, the answer would seem rather obvious (to me, at least).QuoteSuch discussions can - and do - wander all over the place. You can get extreme views, ridiculous ideas and, occasionally, some interesting points. I liken it to "brainstorming". The value here is to not take anything too much to heart and look back when all the shouting is over and see if there are any gems.If people still have something they want to get off their chest, then they are free to do so - but don't interpret continued discussion as a sign the idea will come to be. It isn't. Dave said so.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 06:02:19 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 21, 2022, 05:10:48 amBut it is completely unrelated and co-incidental that while this discussion was taking place the user displays gained a "thanked" count?and that change is nothing at all like trying to obviously rank/separate users. Things did change, despite there being no popular consensus.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 07:42:28 am
content: Quote from: Someone on February 21, 2022, 06:02:19 amDesperate to make a noise are we?Maybe it escaped your notice, but that was nothing like the original proposal. It didn't change how things were done or what they meant - and it can be removed as easily as it was implemented, with no lasting detriment.Besides, the statistic has been available for anyone to see - and has been for as long as I can remember. Just click on a member's Username and it's right there on the landing page of their profile.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 08:21:23 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 21, 2022, 12:09:00 amOmission of Zuckerberg's name says it allI shouldn't have joked about "like" buttons

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 10:43:53 am
content: Regardless of what one might wish Dave chooses to do with respect to the Say Thanks functionality:Because the suggested related changes are minimal and easily reverted, it makes perfect sense for Dave to experiment with them for a few days, and see if the changes have a desirable effect, no effect at all, or an undesirable effect.This kind ofis what we do, after all.Those who feel very annoyed by the Thanked: counter, can use one of several browser extensions that can remove or hide thelielement with classthankscount. You can use an ad blocker, or you can add a CSS snippet (li.thankscount { display:none; }), to hide it.There is no need to hurry or worry overmuch.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 10:51:09 am
content: Quote from: Someone on February 21, 2022, 06:02:19 amI jedi'd Dave into thinking it was his idea.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 01:10:31 pm
content: Quote from: magic on February 21, 2022, 08:21:23 amHe couldnt afford it; Facebook's stock has lost 500e9 in value recently due to Apple and Google creating anti advert tech. What a shame.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 01:27:20 pm
content: *restricting pro-advert tech introduced 10 yeas ago for the first time

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 01:34:01 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 21, 2022, 07:42:28 amThere's quite a difference of degree between the statistic being available for anyone to seeupon seeking it out, and seeing it every time one reads a post.As I've consistently pointed out, the "thanked" count isn't a helpful statistic. At best, it partitions people into "either helpful or affable or both" and "not (either helpful or affable or both)". At worst it tells you nothing. The only time I've found it informative is as alooseindication when I've encountered someone I haven't noticed before, and they are either being a dick, apparently trolling, or trying to start a fight, to determine if they are just having a bad day or if it's likely to be normal behaviour for them

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 01:53:22 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 20, 2022, 11:52:46 pmIf you're going to sell it, I vote for Donald Trump. At least he won't do woketard things such as ban master slave terminology.

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 06:20:12 pm
content: experts are for kids and cat lovers, I have Hyper global mega admiral electrical ultra engineering degree

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 09:14:05 pm
content: Quote from: strawberry on February 21, 2022, 06:20:12 pm+1 (not thanked, for obvious reasons)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 07:43:56 am
content: Quote from: Someone on February 21, 2022, 06:02:19 amI turned that on as an experiment that showed what it used to look like when we first installed the thanks system. It didn't seem to work any more so I forgot about it. Maybe it took time to turn back on. But yeah, there it is.Anyway, surprise, that's what it used to look like and people didn't really like it IIRC.I think it could work if it was renamed.As for it "Ranking" people, it's not that much different to post count, except that it's more useful, it shows that people have respected what that user has to say.Should I remove it again?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 07:47:06 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 21, 2022, 01:34:01 pmIt might be nice if the count shows up in the particular thread only.e.g. If someones post in this thread was Thanked 5 times, the count would show up under the username as 5, otherwise it doesn't show at all?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 07:57:14 am
content: It is not clear to me what is the actual problem this is supposed to solve.The idea seems to be to let new users know who to trust. But let's say someone completely new to the forum sees that someone was thanked 123 times. Is this a lot? What is the baseline? How would they know? May be even the most useless troll accounts were thanked 120 times and 123 is just in the noise.I just went and checked a few accounts that I would not trust, and they have 100s of thanks.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 08:23:35 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 22, 2022, 07:47:06 amAccording tomy pollpublic opinion is mostly against the thanked counter in every post, but it's not as unpopular as the expert idea.Doing it for individual threads is another idea, but I'd be in favour of just scrapping the counter altogether, whether it's in the profile, or posts. The thank you system should be kept, but only displayed for individual posts.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 08:53:27 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 22, 2022, 08:23:35 amThe thanks function still has a useful purpose. It is easily apparent when someone makes a worthwhile considered post for the benefit of other forum members. And saying "thanks for the input and effort" can be inferred by the recipient.And where Ataradov observes "I just went and checked a few accounts that I would not trust, and they have 100s of thanks." it is as easily inferred that the highly opinionated relative few tend to accumulate thanks in the diminished form of "I agree with this side of the argument".Keep the thanks counter because it does serve to reward those worthy of it.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 09:06:14 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 22, 2022, 08:53:27 amYou seem to have missed my point. I didn't say get rid of the thank you system. It should be kept. Whether the counters should remain or go, is a separate debate.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 09:31:21 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 22, 2022, 08:23:35 amIt seems that your personal message "90% of those by trollz" is now lacking context, as is my similar statement "but the count is meaningless without context!". I've copied them so they aren't lost when I (we?) delete them.+1 to Dave for trying something. and +2 for not having so much ego that he isn't prepared to abandon an idea.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 09:36:56 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 22, 2022, 09:31:21 amAgreed. His post about removing it in the other thread got thanked by me.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 09:55:32 am
content: .

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 10:35:29 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 22, 2022, 09:06:14 amI agree it does read as if I missed your point. But I agree with what you say. I think the thanks counter has massively reduced value and my response was made in the certain belief that it would be deleted entirely (and it has been) and that there is not the slightest chance of any alternative such as you suggest ever being implemented. Even if it was on a per post basis only it would still get treated as "I agree" in the context of the thread it is in. And those threads are where high thanks counts tend to accumulate as observed by Ataradov. With whom I also agree.The thanks counter as it was could have served the function if only for those who post to be helpful provided it was ignored for any other purpose.Regardless, the point is moot.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 10:49:34 am
content: A very pertinent comment:Quote from: ataradov on February 22, 2022, 07:57:14 amThree things that should always be kept in mind:1. Whatisthe problem that is being addressed? Beingvery clearabout this is essential.For any given solution:2. How effective is it in achieving the desired outcome?3. What negative consequences could ensue from its implementation?If all three of these are not clearly defined (and the outcome favourable) then it would be foolish to make a change ... IMHO.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 10:50:51 am
content: Quote from: emece67 on February 22, 2022, 09:55:32 amSo ...howwould you qualify posts?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 10:52:03 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 22, 2022, 10:35:29 amAll I'm proposing is to remove the thanked counter from the profile, to stop people from collecting thanks by responding to users such as treez, who abuse it, or sign up multiple accounts so they can thank each other. The ability to thank posts and "The following users thanked this post: Peter, Paul and Mary" message under the appropriate posts should remain.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 10:57:25 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 22, 2022, 10:52:03 amI'm ambivalent about the counter, but I'm curious about the reason for this suggestion. Since the current situation has been the way it is for years, I am led to ask: How has this been a problem?

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 11:07:47 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 22, 2022, 10:57:25 amIt really hasn't as far as I am concerned. But as Zero999 says and with which I agree it does tend to get used as a way for some to collect shiny prizes as if it were a game. But if you ignore that, I thought it still had value for those who used it in the spirit originally intended.Are we better off without it? I suppose that depends on how irritated you found using it as a way to promote tribalism in controversial discussions. I didn't find that a problem and lament the loss of the facility to say thanks without an explicit post. Which IIRC it was to minimise multiple people doing just that.But here I am in this thread posting to say I agree so you can't deny the irony.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 11:34:37 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 22, 2022, 11:07:47 amThe forum would be worse off without it.When it was first introduced almost everyone liked the idea of having the ability to Thank a post. It was a nice way to say you appreciated the effort that went into the post, or agree with it etc, without pollutiing the thread with a copy of the post and a+1etcEssentially it rewards good and often extensive technical posts. A little deserving dopamine hit for the author.The majority though didn't like the Thanks count being shown under the username on every post for the reasons discussed, and the new poll in the other thread still shows that's the case.Almost everyone seems ok wiht having the count burried away in the user profile. That's something I can also disable, but no one has really asked for that.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 11:41:27 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 22, 2022, 11:34:37 amI'm content with that.Being able to indicate that a post was helpful (without many "+1"s) is a benefit.If someone wants to go and play numerology with the thanks count, then they can do that without it becoming a shiny trinket/prize visible to all. No problem.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 11:48:31 am
content: It's easy to be smug and dismissive wrt to addiction behaviors when it isn't you who collected 90% of your thanks from treez...

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 11:51:05 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 22, 2022, 11:34:37 amActually, I and some others have suggested that no cumulative record be kept of thanks. Thanking someone is an immediate courtesy to the poster. Why make it a score?Consider a courteous driver who lets another driver into a line of traffic -- say a driver exiting a fueling station onto a side street. Most of the times, the driver who is let in waves a thanks. At least that happens in the US. Some borish people don't do that. In either case, no one keeps score.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 12:32:23 pm
content: QuoteIn an ideal world it would be just like that, but in practice you post and move on, then perhaps next week someone reads your post and thinks it worthy of thanks. You never see it. Periodically I have a browse through my thanked posts list and see what people appreciated. Sometimes it's surprising, and sometimes I see that someone I helped (but maybe forgot about) said thanks and I never noticed.Summary: I like the list, the in-post thanks is useful but the count itself is pretty meaningless.While the count was being displayed all over, I did a quick calculation for various users of post-to-thanks ratio. Typically it was in the range 3 to 6 but some posters who I expected to score well didn't. I can only think they don't have many cat photos.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 12:39:18 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 22, 2022, 12:32:23 pmI think a list of posts thanked is a good compromise. It doesn't have to be exhaustive, the last 25 or so posts would be helpful.QuoteOr they just responded to those who don't use the thanked button loads.Quote from: EEVblog on February 22, 2022, 11:34:37 amI don't believe anyone is talking about removing the thanks button. The consensus seems to be that it should remain.Quote from: jpanhalt on February 22, 2022, 11:51:05 amI agree. I think the further we can move away from scoring points, the better. One of the things I like about this forum is the lack of competition and egos. The fact that the moderators are mostly impartial is also good.Electro-tech-online was completely the opposite of this place. The karma system was badly abused. What was worse is, one could leave messages. Abusive messages often accompanied negative karma and the moderators didn't do anything about it. On the other hand the over-moderated the forum and displayed bias. Lazy students and free energy zealots would sign up, troll and provoke long standing members. When they got told to kindly bugger off, the long standing member would get banned, leaving the troll to annoy others. I could never understand why saying a free energy zealot was ignorant on the form resulted in an infraction, yet leaving bad karma, with a much more abusive message with swearing was tolerated, by the moderators. Many left. I'm glad this place isn't like that.

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 12:49:31 pm
content: I am thinking that in "Theory" this would be a great idea .. But as with all what I have seen so far Theory and practice are totally distorted .Some of the so called Experts are really good at copy & Paste and have not got a clue . & could out smart anyone with a twisted tongue.On the other hand there are some real born Genuineness here and they stay in the shadows .The only way to Find real experts would be to Prove it with some Certification's

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 01:37:16 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 22, 2022, 11:34:37 amI typically use the total thanks received, to alert me when less recent posts have been given thanks and/or have suddenly become 'viral' and got a number of thanks from different users.Thanks for removing the permanent display of the thanks counter. It means that most people can forget about the thanks total, most of the time. If anyone gets curious, they can look at the total thanks score. But otherwise, it is now somewhat easily ignored, especially the thanks counts of other users, as it is a bit too much of a nuisance, to check on it now.I suppose it is a bit like getting the feedback/(compensation) loop just right on an op-amp/amp. Get it wrong and it can oscillate (like being too important/addictive/Dopamine-giving), hiding it again, arguably stabilizes/balances the situation.tl;drThanks for re-hiding/burying the thanks totals.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 02:31:35 pm
content: .

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 02:44:55 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on February 22, 2022, 12:49:31 pmLike the Minesweeper Consultant and Solitaire Expert certificate?I've seen people who are re-evaluated every few years to keep their certifaction status fail at simple tasks. A certificate only confirms that someone has passed a specific test - nothing more.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 03:15:28 pm
content: I liked the old Usenet system, where most groups weren’t moderated and discussions ebbed and flowed organically. Unfortunately, spam eventually made the whole thing unusable and we’re now left with web-based forums like this one.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 03:31:51 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 22, 2022, 08:23:35 amFWTW I've just gone and added my 'No' (i.e.dislike showing the thanked count) to that, but I don't want to get embroiled inanothertread about this.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 04:01:46 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 22, 2022, 11:34:37 amIt has a bit more utility than merely providing a dopamine hit.It provides positive feedback. You can use it to gauge interest in what you're posting even if people haven't posted any follow-ups to what you're saying. If you post something on "current project X" and get half a dozen "thanks" but no posts in response, then people probably found your description of "current project X" interesting and it's probably OK to post further updates on the project as and when. If it passes by without "thanks" or posts in response then it, then nobody was interested and you're probably better off keeping schtum.The "thanks" button fulfills this feedback rôle nicely, one can indicate interest without polluting threads with "Interesting" or "keep us updated"messages. In a way it can act in place of those little cues we give off in physical conversation to indicate that people aren't boring us (yet), the little nods and "Umhum"s. OK, there are some people who will carry on regardless, like the strange thread where currently one person is talking to themselves (and one other forum member occasionally interjects) and has been doing so for 7 pages so far despite there being no interest shown by the world in general. In real life the yawning and looking at watches would have killed a physicalconversationmonologue like that dead in two minutes.The logical conclusion here would be to also have a "bored" button as a negative feedback mechanism, but that's way too abrupt and abrasive compared to the subtle real life cues one gives off when being bored witless to be a realistic suggestion.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 04:19:26 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on February 22, 2022, 12:49:31 pmNo, that's just a good way of finding people who are good at acquiring certifications.All the genuinely smart and/or knowledgeable people I've ever known didn't need paper certification to demonstrate how good they were, people could figure out how smart and/or knowledgeable they were within a few minutes of talking to them. Some of them mightincidentallyhave acquired certifications and titles along the way, some hadn't. In fact in my experience if there is any correlation between "smart" and "paper qualified" it's that the outstandingly brilliant fair poorly when it comes to the academic type of paper qualifications; they are often bored rigid at school because it moves too slowly for them, they get a bad reputation with the more stupid type of teacher, and end up with poor school results and a bad taste in their mouths from dealing with the academic world.

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 04:52:05 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 22, 2022, 04:19:26 pmWhere did I mention paper certification.. ? . Only you mention it .

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 05:11:32 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on February 22, 2022, 04:52:05 pmSo what kind of certification did you have in mind?I may or may not be an "Expert", but I'm damn good in a few areas and pretty good in many. If I had to provide certification, I might be theoretically able to find my High School diploma -- that's it for paper, or for any "official" type of certification.BTW, this has been a fun discussion. It's enjoyable but I hope nothing comes of it.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 05:28:04 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on February 22, 2022, 04:52:05 pmLook here:Quote from: Labrat101 on February 22, 2022, 12:49:31 pmI agree the word 'paper' is missing, but I don't think it makes much difference to what was said. Many things are no longer on 'paper' these days (internet/computerization), and what you stated, could be interpreted to include 'paper' ones, anyway.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 05:50:37 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on February 22, 2022, 04:52:05 pmYou did, by implication, by saying "Certification's" (sic).It is normal idiomatic English to refer to such as "paperqualifications", the paper being referred to being a document such as a "pass certificate", "exam certificate", "degree certificate", and so on. If the qualification is from somewhere particularly expensive it may be inscribed on a dead sheep's skin rather than paper, if it's from somewhere particularly downmarket, or particularly fashionable, then the certificate will be a collection of [mostly random] bits drifting around somewhere in cyberspace (also sic*).* Because I remember when people used thecyber-prefix properly, in relation to control systems, not gnomically and misnomically to refer to the latest digital fad.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 05:54:36 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on February 22, 2022, 05:11:32 pmI like the passage!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 06:16:37 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on February 22, 2022, 05:11:32 pmMaybe the type that (in conjunction with medics), the police can do for a few days and the courts indefinitely?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 06:44:22 pm
content: The idea of having expert forum users, even if it means they have to pass some sort of test is a very bad idea. For a start, it's virtually impossible to develop a test which would accurately asses the range of skills and knowledge required to help in every area of electronics/programming/engineering discussed on this site. It's impossible to ensure the person doesn't cheat, or get someone else to do it for them. A good number of people here would have to agree with the test, in order for it to be respected by most.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 06:46:26 pm
content: Are there even enough (or any) people that want to bother passing some test to get a badge on the internet forum? I would be suspicious of anyone wanting to do that in a first place.

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 07:21:40 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 22, 2022, 06:16:37 pm

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 07:25:24 pm
content: I personally like the "Thank User" feedback to see that someone actually read my post and that my 2 cents was actually worth 2 cents, although not completely definitive, at least it is positive feedback. As far as considering it a badge or a trophy, I am 69 yo and could not care less about such things, especially on a forum by people that I don't even know. (Maybe if I was still 12...)As far as Expert badges, or similar, the administration, if done correctly, would be a nightmare for Dave to ensure that the system was viable, let alone maintainable. I often refer to myself as "Jack of all trades, master at none." so there is no circumstance where I would be considered "Expert". Competence, however would be a trait that I would respect, but in my years of working with others, their competence is something that is earned over a long period of time and actually working with them; no test will do that for you.In conclusion, I voted no on the Expert status idea and get rid of thanks count on every post on the other thread.Again, my 2 cents...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 07:51:28 pm
content: Quote from: Labrat101 on February 22, 2022, 07:21:40 pmWhen I was an interviewer, I never resorted to, or needed to resort to, such tricks.When I was an interviewee, if I came across tricks, I knew I didn't want to work there.Fundamentally there are too many interesting and relevant interview techniques that trickery is an unnecessary egoboo.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 09:06:21 pm
content: Quote from: tpowell1830 on February 22, 2022, 07:25:24 pmYes and no. I think you have to seperate two things here: eagerness / enthousiasm and being able to do the work. When I interview a candidate for an engineering position, I always let the candidate do a test to see if the candidate has the knowledge level required for the job. I have come across some very motivated people but when it came to doing engineering work, little to nothing came out of their heads & hands.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 09:55:00 pm
content: Quote from: tpowell1830 on February 22, 2022, 07:25:24 pmYou're the umpteenth person in this thread to cite their advanced age for one reason or another. At this rate Dave's going to start wondering whether it's time to stop selling EEVblog branded multimeters and start in on the EEVblog branded Zimmer frames!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 11:02:08 pm
content: People asking for this might want to try that:https://www.experts-exchange.comThat's exactly what it is about, and of course it's a paid service.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 12:21:16 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 22, 2022, 09:55:00 pmI mentioned my age as a qualifier for the fact that I have worked with many people over my career. I don't claim to be any smarter or wiser than anyone else, but I have a lot of experience.Whatsa zimmer frame?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 12:30:55 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 22, 2022, 11:02:08 pmI'm perfectly happy with my sex, but thanks anyway.(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 12:37:44 am
content: Quote from: tpowell1830 on February 23, 2022, 12:21:16 amOh we knowwhyyou said it, nothing wrong with that. It's just that there are so many of us not *ahem* in the first flush of youth, and so many have directly referenced their own age in that regard in this thread that I'm beginning to suspect that if one finds one self thinking "Huh, the youth of today!" at what someone's saying on here it's likely that they'll turn out to be older than the person thinking that.Oh, and a Zimmer frame is the device that seems to support half of Florida, if I am to believe what I see at the kinematograph:

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 01:08:39 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 23, 2022, 12:30:55 amThe new management, Mr. Lizard (praise be upon his scaliness), has mandated a 50/50 male to female ratio.Someones got to do it.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 01:17:42 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 23, 2022, 01:08:39 amOuch. I understand. Will the split line be horizontal, vertical, or diagonal? Or can one ask for more than one split line? I'm rather fond of Mondrian, you see, but would settle for a single diagonal line. I'd rather not have a horizontal or vertical one, because those tend to lead to confusion in the bedroom.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 02:06:40 am
content: As has been inferred by previous comment, the "Thanks" system that exists on EEVblog has evolved with its own, if somewhat nebulous, value. Using dictionary definitions are pointless since such precision in meaning does not map against the "vibe" of the way it has developed. Sure, prior to this there was the occasional question asked, but nobody seemed really worried about it. From my experience, over time, people seemed to get comfortable with itIf asked to give a formal description of what the "Thanks" system on the EEVblog is all about, I would struggle. Certainly it is not a definitive measure of expertise, but does that mean it needs to be altered or removed?As for people supposedly "gaming the system" with the treez/Faringdon thing, I ask: To what end? Adding to a number that most people don't care about? I say: ignore that - which is what I've done for ages. Sure, you see the "thanks" in the thread posts, but for those threads, I just shake my head and move on.I don't really care much about the total thanks a member has accumulated ... and I venture to say that a great proportion of members feel likewise.I will admit that a couple of years ago when I noticed I was in the top 10 list, I felt the urge to keep my number up - but that failed as I had started a new job and had less time for posting. I soon got over that and now I just don't care. Being a number that people would have to actively make an effort to see, to me, it just doesn't rate as an issue (now that Dave removed the display of it on every post).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 02:28:23 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 23, 2022, 02:06:40 amIt evolved as an alternative to Like as a better acknowledgement of a members contributions.Would you prefer Like or a return to +1 and?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 02:32:16 am
content: Each person probably has their own reasons for clicking "Thanks". So why do I personally use it? Mostly to acknowledge a post that I think is interesting to me (not someone else because how would I know what interests them). Of course if someone answers a question I asked I give a thanks.I do not do it to add to anyone's "Thanks" counter nor did I even notice how many I had ... until this thread came up.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 02:50:20 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 22, 2022, 06:16:37 pmIn California that is Welfare and Institutions Code Section 5150. Otherwise called a 'fifty-one fifty'. 72 hour involuntary hold.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 02:58:49 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 23, 2022, 01:08:39 amI'm happy to do 50% of the females.Or have I misunderstood the mission?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 03:00:55 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 23, 2022, 01:08:39 amOk Mr Lizard, that can be done two ways, the easy way or the hard way. The easy way is deleting 90% of accounts.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 03:04:35 am
content: Carnage.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 04:57:12 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 23, 2022, 02:28:23 amIndeed ... and that's probably the best and most concise statement I could ever expect. It does leave the merit of what is worthy of acknowledgement as being rather subjective, but that is part of - IMO - why it has survived as well as it has.QuoteAaaagggghhhh! No.Just because I see that something does not have a precise, universal, unambiguous, unanimously accepted definition doesn't mean I want to change it.Why even go there?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 05:20:39 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 23, 2022, 02:06:40 amI claim it works best when its definition is fuzzy/ambiguous but always positive, because when it matters, it forces one to consider the context.Condensing such stuff into a single number does not work, and that's why I was so adamant about removing the Thanked: counter from the user info shown next to each post (which has been removed; thank you!). Such single numbers too easily become a personal "score", and that leads to social gamification, which once started, is hard to quell.When overused, "Thanks" does lose some of its impact, but as long as the overusers are a small minority, it does not impact the facility itself, only those particular members. Members soon note if someone "Thanks" way too often for it to be useful; at least one such former member has been mentioned already.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 06:52:40 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 23, 2022, 05:20:39 amI support your claim - and your reasoning!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 07:55:07 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 23, 2022, 04:57:12 amYou were a member when Thanks were introduced although you did not participate in the announcement thread where not everyone at that time was for the idea yet it's been a good tool and served its purpose.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/news/you-can-now-thank-posters/

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 09:35:50 am
content: How do you take my non participation in such a thread as a sign of ANY preference?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 10:53:10 am
content: From the other thread on the thank you counter, which is now closed.Quote from: Ice-Teahttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/the-thanked-counter/msg4022422/#msg4022422That's very true. The three users I'm aware of which have a >100% count to post ratio, achieved it by posting lots of nice pictures.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?area=showposts;sa=thanked;u=112036https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?area=showposts;sa=thanked;u=112711https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?area=showposts;sa=thanked;u=503178They also joined after, or just before the thank you system was implemented.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 11:51:10 am
content: I think I would be more inclined to thank a post with pictures because the poster has taken a bit more trouble than usual to provide them, so there is a little bias from the off. And a few very thanked posts could skew the stats - over on Amazon my review rating jumped from 4 to 3 figures just on the basis of a single review that rather a lot of people tagged.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 10:50:17 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 23, 2022, 02:58:49 amToo late, you've signed off.Expect the ice to arrive shortly, try not to eat until you wake up in the tub.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 11:49:41 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 23, 2022, 07:55:07 amThis statement still confounds me.If you are saying that my non-participation in the announcement thread equates to my disapproval (which seems to be the only context that makes sense), then I respond as follows:1. How in the hell do you come to that conclusion?2. You couldn't be more wrong. In fact, I remember reading that thread and thinking: "Oh ... OK" and I moved on, not giving it a second thought.That change, as I see it, was adding a feature that did not have a bold objective. It was simple recognition - with no particular value stated or inferred outside of a positive indication from other members. It did make it possible for some posts to be replaced with a "Thanks" - and less posts make reading a thread easier. Also, a list of members who thanked a post gave the reader an idea of how other members responded. By not having acategoricaldefinition of what "Thanks" means, there is no direct conclusion one can derive - other than:Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 23, 2022, 05:20:39 am.... and that it is just a personal opinion of a member ... at the time.However, the subject of this thread is the "Experts" idea. This has a much more authoritative objective. The mechanism to achieve that objective has not been clearly defined, let alone agreed upon - and even if such a mechanism were found, there is still the question of whether it would be actually achieve the objective in the way that it was intended, which includes not facilitating counterproductive behaviour.Even presuming such a solution were found, the question of administration stands out ... How much effort is required? Who will do it? What credentials would they need? What liabilities are they - or Dave - exposed to? And the list goes on...Just to be clear, I am NOT against change - but before anything is implemented, the objectives and risks need to be well understood.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 11:52:14 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 23, 2022, 02:58:49 amPrediction: it ill Never achieved that

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2022, 12:19:41 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 23, 2022, 09:35:50 amI don't. Period.Instead I thought it useful to dig out the thread and link it for other members to examine the discussion at Thanks conception.Sorry if you may have misunderstood that I may have implied your lack of participation implied your position on this matter is relevant when it is obviously not. Certainly I wasn't trying to provoke you.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 24, 2022, 07:00:13 am
content: Ok. The context inferred otherwise. Nevertheless, such communication issues are not uncommon on a forum.Moving on....

author: 7.83hz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 24, 2022, 01:46:12 pm
content: Hi All .This may not be the best place for a newbie . Being a fast reader I have over the few days been reading many interesting postsThen I saw this after, 19 pages . I got totally confused ..Thinking Yes I would like some help from an Experts in electronic .Sorry I might be told this is not a good thing to say on a first post . But I just have to say ..I am so put off by so many Experts bickering amongst them selves .The topic deviation has covered every angle .. Without coming close to 1 sensible answer . Which some how is telling meI am in the Wrong electronic forum

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2022, 02:21:01 pm
content: Quote from: 7.83hz on February 24, 2022, 01:46:12 pmThen ignore this thread and only look at the threads that are useful to you.In life in general you will find people that tell you what to do and believe. Some of them are deliberately acting intheirbest interests, not yours - e.g. anybody pushing a product. Others imagine they are experts when they aren't; that's made famous as the Dunning Kruger syndrome.As a rule of thumb, the more expert a person is, the more they realise how much theydon'tknow - and so they are less likely to call themselves expert. Apart from that, I am "expert" in some topics, but a "beginner" in others. Therefore flagging me as "an expert" would be misleading in some cases, but not in others.It is up to you to decide who to listen to. That is a key life skill which you need to develop.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2022, 02:22:00 pm
content: Quote from: 7.83hz on February 24, 2022, 01:46:12 pmHi. Welcome to the forum.This thread is in the general area and as such attracts the more lively members of the group. I'm sure you'll find that asking a question in the beginners section would be much less overwhelming.Like most of us, I hope you enjoy your stay.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2022, 02:28:48 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 23, 2022, 11:51:10 amI'm not putting down anyone who gets thanked for posting images. It's just an observation that it's very popular with people. I do think that posting an accurate, detailed article/essay is more worthwhile than a few pretty pictures, but it doesn't seem to be so popular, because it takes more time to read is and isn't as eye catching. The poster with the highest post/thanked ratio, Noopy, not only posts nice pictures of dies, but also detailed descriptions and schematics and they're not quick snaps: good die-shots take a lot of time and effort to produce.Quote from: 7.83hz on February 24, 2022, 01:46:12 pmPlease don't let this thread put you off. Not everyone will agree on everything.Good, you want advice from experts, but the consensus is it's difficult to determine the criteria to prove that a person is an expert. The results from the poll are against designating certain members as experts, because the term is quite vague and isn't helped by the fact that those with more knowledge have a greater awareness of their limitations and many people here are quite specialised. For example, someone might be an expert in embedded C programming, but comparatively inexperienced in a analogue design.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2022, 02:37:56 pm
content: Quote from: 7.83hz on February 24, 2022, 01:46:12 pmWell, maybe you are?It depends on,1) what you want?2) are you ready to grow up and aim higher?The strength of this forum is exactly that it matches the actual reality, where complex matters do not usually have a single, simple "answer". So different people focus on different sides of the story; put it all together, and your understanding grows. If you don't get an exact single answer, the reason usually is, because there is no such simple answer, and the question was actually complex.The internet is full of forums that dedicate themselves into automating the process of finding "The Best Answer". The result is, they are much less useful when you want to build understanding. This understanding then helps you do pretty much anything.Quick and easy answers are, sadly, often just wrong. Even when they are right, they will be pretty limited.Also, this is actually a discussion forum. Not a question-answer forum, although most (but not all, by far!) discussions, especially in the Beginners subforum, are started by what seems to be just a simple question. But being a discussion forum, that question is beingdiscussed, that's the whole point. It triggers some people; some people just can't stand it. If you are one of those, then this forum might not be for you. But, if you love discussing and learning, then... this is hard to surpass.

author: 7.83hz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 24, 2022, 05:35:34 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 24, 2022, 02:37:56 pmAnswer to 1) That is a funny question and deserves a funny answer . Being an XAerospace now well in my 75 plus yrs.I thought 7.83hz may have been an answer .Answer to 2) "are you ready to grow up and aim higher?" 80,000 feet is pretty high No . "grow up". Never.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2022, 06:41:25 pm
content: Anyway, I think the whole point behind this topic is: if you can't handle discussions on a free forum (including the ability to judge or at least verify the relevance of given contributions), just don't participate or ask question in one. Go to school, hire a teacher or a mentor.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2022, 07:05:26 pm
content: Quote from: 7.83hz on February 24, 2022, 05:35:34 pmDidn't you know that should be written as 7.83Hz?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2022, 07:20:52 pm
content: Quote from: 7.83hz on February 24, 2022, 05:35:34 pmWhen you say 7.83 Hz, are you talking about scientific stuff, officially recognized, properly sourced research papers ?Or is this about healing waves/stones, magnetic free energy machines, and Nikola Tesla's stuff ?tl;drWhat is your take on 7.83 Hz ?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2022, 11:58:25 pm
content: 7.83 Hz must be the brown note

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 25, 2022, 12:09:00 am
content: Quote from: 7.83hz on February 24, 2022, 01:46:12 pmHi ... and welcome to the EEVblog forum.QuoteThis particular thread would not be my first recommendation.QuoteQuoteThis particular thread isexactlyabouthowthat could be done better by having members formally identified as being "expert". The discussion has made it clear that such a direct "label" (as it were) is extremely problematic.QuoteThis is not a new issue:Beginners, don't run away, please!Sometimes it may be bickering ... sometimes it may be debate. Almost always differences of opinion come from each individual's experience being unique. The result is as you have experienced - which gave rise to one member making a statement which I felt worthy of framing:This forum draws involvement from a global community of people having vast diversity in language, culture, experience and temperament. This is no different from the real world and, as such, learning some discernment is highly beneficial. We are not an "homogenised" group in any way, shape of form. We are just a bunch of people with an interest in electronics that found our way here.It is also worth noting that everybody here contributes voluntarily, in their own time, for their own reasons ... and for free.QuoteIt depends on what you call a sensible answer.If you are talking about this thread in particular and you were expecting to see the "Expert" system in place, then you won't get that answer. This is because there has been extensive discussion about the mechanics, the problems and the repercussions of doing so which have, for now, lead to an answer in the negative.QuoteI would suggest you interact with people here a bit more before considering walking away. There have been other members who have found the EEVblog forum a much more palatable alternative to what is on offer elsewhere on the internet.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2022, 12:26:37 am
content: This thread has covered a lot of territory and has input from most of the more active members. AFAIK, it has achieved its purpose and the proposal has been canned. We won't be getting our complimentary "Expert" badges any time soon. That works for me! I didn't like focusing on "Thanks" either. I sometimes give replies and sometimes they are helpful. That's all I expect to do and that's all anyone can expect of me.Forget this thread or review it after you have been here a while and understand the dynamics of this site. It is an unusual site in the sense that there is almost never a single right answer given. That's because there is never a single right answer to give. There are some very talented people contributing replies and yet, almost none want to be identified as an "Expert". Just a bunch of individual contributors.Watch how threads flow from what seemed like a simple question to a series of posts trying to get the question straightened out and then watch how many different solutions are offered. Some solutions will be cheaper, easier, higher performing or whatever. But there will likely never be just one answer. And that's the beauty of this site. Diversity of opinion... "Gee, I never thought of that!".

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 25, 2022, 10:06:29 am
content: Quote from: 7.83hz on February 24, 2022, 01:46:12 pmThis is acommunityforum, the regulars hang out here because it's like hanging out around the water cooler at work. We discuss stuff, and argue about stuff in the way you'd expect a bunch of engineers to fuss of the finest details, expecially in the "general chat" section.There is "1 sensible answer" that matters in this thread and it's mine when I said this change wasn't going ahead, which was obvious from the poll results. The rest is regulars just chatting about their community and how it works and how they see it, and how they'd like the see it etc.This thread is doing precisely its intended function.

author: 7.83hz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 25, 2022, 10:12:58 am
content: @ Mr BrumbyYour comment and explanation was from and educated personThanksNot like some of your fellow members . ieQuote from: xrunner on February 24, 2022, 07:05:26 pmNo!! 7.83hz is written 100% correctly . Why did you assume it meant Frequency.Just plain, I can't think of a sensible answer. So I must jump to the first thing that just popes in to my headI find that the same as you call your self Xrunner . X = abbreviation :: You run away from anything in a skirt . Does it HERTZ ?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2022, 10:20:18 am
content: Quote from: 7.83hz on February 25, 2022, 10:12:58 amI suggest you try to be a little less sensitive. It was a reasonable assumption to make. I wouldn't be surprised if most people thought it meant frequency. I certainly did. You said you're a beginner and writing hz, rather than Hz is a very common error.Alright. What does your username mean then? I'm genuinely interested.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2022, 11:18:41 am
content: Quote from: 7.83hz on February 25, 2022, 10:12:58 amWell, 7.83 Hzisthe fundamental frequency of theSchumann resonanceof Earth, and thus of interest to anyone doing RF stuff or planetary physics et cetera. A lot of members here are the sort that might recognize the frequency as something significant, and thereforeassumeyour username is related.Note, I'm only saying that it is easy to see why many humans would assume your username to be a reference to this frequency. I'm not saying it is good or bad to assume so, just pointing out why.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2022, 11:25:13 am
content: There is no other meaning but you will keep falling for a troll

author: 7.83hz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 25, 2022, 11:47:42 am
content: @ Zero999Alright. What does your username mean then? I'm genuinely interested.Its the Helium used to clean out the thrust engine @ zero . Use at High altitude

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2022, 12:16:13 pm
content: Quote from: 7.83hz on February 25, 2022, 10:12:58 amUh, because it does in that context, if you would Google it you'll find this -QuoteSo I did look it up because, as you will find (and are finding), that if you don't do a meager amount of research before you make a statement here, you will soon learn to do so.QuoteJust plain, you're wrong.QuoteIf you'd Google "xrunner" you'd have easily found it refers to a Toyota truck model that I happened to have owned for many years. Quite a cool looking truck but it's not made anymore. Very simple and easy thing to do. Did you do it?

author: Labrat101
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 25, 2022, 05:00:18 pm
content: Quote from: 7.83hz on February 25, 2022, 11:47:42 amI would not have guessed that 1.