Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2017, 09:05:11 pm
content: Hi everyone,After much googling and research I feel like I've hit the point of diminishing returns on information and I'd like to hear from people that have experience with this kind of equipment.I'm potentially acquiring a contract that will allow me to set up a small SMT line for a client. The idea is to offload the work of sourcing/assembly from the client onto me to provide a more or less turnkey service for the client. They are on board with this idea and like the concept of a quick turnaround PCBA service that (for the near future) would be primarily dedicated to them. Initial quantity is ~2.5k boards by November with another 2.5k by end of year.We are both aware of the risk involved but excited about the opportunity. This first batch will cost them ~$50 per board, including PCBs, BOM, and PCBA. The follow on batches I think can be done for <$30. They're very happy with these prices. I for one am thrilled about the opportunity to set up my own proper lab. My background is as a mechanical engineer and a EE hopeful - I've mostly focused on electronics and board design the last several years and I even do this at my day job, though nowhere near the level of some of you here. I live in Atlanta and with Georgia Tech and a budding maker community nearby I think I could offer a good service to small business and hobbyists locally. Enough rambling:The budget I'd like to stay under is $130k. This can be pushed a little bit if necessary but is about as high as I'd be willing to go. At $150k I'd be working for "free" and basically being paid in equipment, but I am willing to do that.I've looked at a lot of equipment, and this is what I've settled on so far as a preliminary setup:Philips Assembleon Topaz Xii (2005)-$38,800MPM Accuflex Stencil Printer-$24,800Heller 1706EXL Reflow Oven-$16,000Mirtec MV-7L AOI Inline Inspection System-$25,000Additional Assembleon Feeders - up to$4,000HEPA Air Filtration System -$1,500PCB Conveyors - up to$4,500Ultrasonic Cleaner for Stencils -$2,000Sil-Air Air Compressor-$4,000Esimated Freight Cost -$10,000Total:$130,600My priorities are:1) Reliability2) Ease of use3) Availability of documentation, parts, spares, etc...4) Flexibility5) SpeedI rather took a liking to the Assembleon machines. By all appearances they are workhorses and appear to have a good interface and a plethora of feeders and parts on the used market. I have experience with these types of motion systems and would feel comfortable doing most maintenance. I looked at the Neoden4 (and read through all 49 pages of the thread here) but I'm apprehensive about it and would prefer a "proper" machine. I think it will be a false economy. I also looked at Manncorp but new machines with feeders are just too expensive. There's a good deal on eBay for pretty new machine with a bunch of feeders but it's more than twice what the Assembleon is.I really don't want to cheap out on a stencil printer. The MPM Accuflex seems like a common solution that works well. Same for the reflow oven.I will need conveyors to string these machines together and a 90deg turn conveyor to make it to the reflow oven (small room). The oven will either need external ducting or an air filtration system with no outside exhaust. Very eager to hear thoughts on this topic. There's a cheap lot of 5 conveyors including 2 90deg rotators for $1500 on eBay. Pulled from production and untested, but I'm definitely willing to roll those dice and feel confident I could fix most potential issues.The AOI system I'm not sure about. 99% board yields without an AOI system would be acceptable for the near future. Would that money be better spent elsewhere or is it a necessity even for low volume? Is that even a good AOI system?Another thing that gives me pause is the 11mm maximum height on the Topaz Xii. There are a couple of Assembleon Emeralds that can handle taller (20mm) and more oddly shaped parts. Would that be a better choice? This initial project won't hit that height restriction but a few of my others will (RJ45 connectors, caps, etc...). Lower throughput but that's OK for now. If I do get 2 machines I'd prefer to stay within one "ecosystem."$10k seems to me like a reasonable freight cost if I shop around, all machines are in the US with one only a state away. The space I'm looking at to house these is a steal, old industrial building, concrete floors, 3 phase.The air compressor is pricey but it's practically silent. As I will be in the same room with it all day this is a necessity. I'm having a hard time finding air requirements for these machines so I may be able to downsize to a cheaper compressor.There are three other things: 1) PCB feeding and unloading. Although I'd be OK with doing it by hand for now that will get old fast. 2) Double sided assembly. Is there something major I overlooked that's a necessity for double-sided assembly? Without a glue dispenser it will be limited to placing only low-mass components on one side but that's fine. The reflow oven however has a mesh belt...how would I put double sided boards on that? 3) Through-hole components. For low volume work I'd be fine placing and soldering them by hand. With the right equipment I could probably get through a hundred boards in an hours or two. Even so, would either of these machines be capable of placing through hole components using a pin-in-paste method?So that's it! Do you see any major bottlenecks I didn't consider? Any input on the quality of this equipment...perhaps I'd be better served with something else?This is a lot of questions but I would really, really appreciate input from folks who know these things in and out. And it goes without saying that once I get this set up I will be absolutely delighted to offer super cheap PCBA for EEVBlog members while I learn and get comfortable with the machines. My goal is to be able to take a simple job (i.e. Arduino board) and be able to get the line programmed within 4 hours.Again thank you all so much for any advice!

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2017, 09:20:08 pm
content: Did you do a business plan? Cash flow?Sounds like fun.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2017, 09:24:56 pm
content: I have a full-time job. My motivation to do this is primarily because I want to, the money is secondary. In other words I am not intending this to be my primary source of income, although if it turns out that way I won't complain. Cash flow wise as long as I can cover consumables and maintenance I can live with a low profit on the first runs while I gather empirical data about it. In other words if I miscalculated and need to spend $500 out of pocket to cover solder paste or something that's OK.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2017, 09:33:08 pm
content: I hear mixed opinions on AOI from the assembly contractors I've used over the years. Some use it all the time, some only on bigger runs due to setup time, some never.If your basic process is good, then the need for AOI may be questionable in terms of value for money. How many things will it catch that won't be caught in final test, and how many of those are things that could have been fixed by improving the preceding processes?Every large purchase needs to be considered on a cost/benefit basis, and until you have the whole thing set up, you don't really know how much value AOI will add. It may be better to spend the money on improving the process than finding it slightly earlier it when it fails.In your position I'd hold off on AOI until you're up & running, and analyse your failure rates, as without the figures you can't determine the value of AOI.You may also want to look at alternatives - high pixel count consumer cameras are cheap. I wonder if a very simple system that takes a high-res pic and then does a "flicker comparator" type thing with a reference image would give you, say 50% of the value of proper AOI for a tenth the price.I'd probably agree that most of the current generation of Chinese machines leave a lot to be desired, certainly for a minimum intervention setup, in an area where labour for babysitting is expensive.The Neoden 4 in particular, though it gets a lot right, like 4 heads and a conveyor ( albeit with its own issues), it's a bit of a car-crash when it comes to feeders and software.I'd certainly be looking more towards machines that use Yamaha feeders, as feeders are THE problem for doing pick & place reliably.However there's no escaping the fact that you can buy several Chinese machines for the price of one decent used machine from the "Old Guard". I have no doubt that for some use cases, one or more Chinese machines could offer much better overall value and flexibility. Few places could afford to have a "spare" Mydata just in case, but if the machine only costs $5-10K, having multiple machines means that any single failure will never stop production, just maybe slow it down a bit.While it's true that stencil print quality is probably the most important thing to get right for maximising yield, $24k seems rather a lot for something that can be done semi-manually pretty quickly - at least one fairly large assembler I visited a few years ago manually printed everything. They rotated the job round multiple staff, so they all got good at it and nobody got bored doing nothing else all day.Also, with the availablility of cheap stencils from China, especially if you regularly have new designs you probably want a printer that can use unframed, less-than-huge stencils.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2017, 09:43:04 pm
content: Great info! Makes total sense about the AOI. Problem is I really don't know what's involved in programming one. I've watched a bunch of programming walkthroughs from various manufacturers. If it takes 2 days to setup it's not worth it for 100 boards. For the 5k order that's funding this there will almost certainly be test fixtures that could probably cover it. In any case it's a consumer product, a few warranty returns are baked into their business model.The idea with the stencil printer is to reduce the amount of babysitting. I am for sure not opposed to a manual printer as well for smaller jobs. Is there anything you'd consider a "must have" for an automated stencil printer or are they all more-or-less the same? The staff in this case will be just me. If it comes to it I can find help but if an automated printer will reduce my stenciling labor time from 5 hours a day to 30 minutes a day, that's a win. Would you agree?When you say Yamaha feeders, would that require a Yamaha machine or are certain feeders interchangeable between brands? This is one area I really don't understand yet. Would you consider the Assembleon a poor choice for this reason? I.e. feeder quality/support/capability vs. a different brand machine?What are the "go-to" chinese machines with readily available parts/feeders? Juki, MyData, etc...?Another thing I lack the experience to know is which brand offers the best user interface/software. This is a big one for me, I already use enough buggy software and the smoother this goes the better.Love your channel btw!

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2017, 09:46:36 pm
content: One other thing I considered if I dropped the AOI would be picking up a second Assembleon Emerald, that way I'm covered for just about any part and have a little bit of redundancy if one machine fails. Is that a good deal for $60-70k for both machines? I assume feeders are interchangeable between the two and the programming process is very similar.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2017, 09:57:36 pm
content: I am no expert on this subject but want to share this: three years ago I spent a week testing my companies pcbs in an assembly factory. I talked to the guys and manager and remember what their main concern was: service.In their contract there was a fixed delivery clause, each day late there was a huge penalty. In that week I was there the flying probe testmachine failed. They had a 24/7 service contract on all their machines since they could not afford to loose the production time. The service guy came in two hours later, a replacement part had to be ordered from Japan, it was express courier flown in and the total delay was less than one day. Cost was huge though.So how are going to cope with a defective machine, can you fix it and get spare parts within a few days, have a backup plan in place?Another thing I remember was that the ESD pre cautions were ultra high, special clothing, shoes etc. Another thing to take care of is the floor. Good luck on the enterprise.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2017, 10:07:34 pm
content: Interesting. I've heard really good things about the Heller ovens. Is there a Chinese oven you'd recommend?The HEPA filter is something that's so cheap that I much prefer to have one to keep things clean. I've been meaning to get one for my home lab for forever. Atlanta can be a dusty city.That's great to know about the stencil cleaner, I have to clean the stencils I do manually quite often but of course that's a much lower quality process.On the automation I agree it probably wouldn't take long to load and unload boards, and of course I'm willing to do this for a while. The real issue is that if the line is running for 8 hours, and I have to walk up and do something every 1-5 minutes, that means I can't really do anything else even if the time required to do it is only seconds. The more hands off the better, if I only need to come change a feeder, load boards, etc... once an hour that's a world of difference is terms of time management and operational mindset. I'll be in the room doing other work, designing boards, programming, etc.. and having to get up every few minutes is a major distraction.Mike and blueskull, on the stencil topic how do you feel about the stencil frames that let you swap out stencils and tension them with only one frame? That would certainly cut down on the cost and bulk of stencils. For small stuff I can get a decent manual printer that could use smaller stencils.Kjelt: Couldn't agree more, I think service is super important. For the foreseeable future my advice to anyone who has very strict timelines would be "use someone else!" I'm certainly aware of the possibility and so I wouldn't feel comfortable guaranteeing extremely tight timelines. This is however where I'd like advice - who are the usual suspects for service? Are there well-regarded aftermarket sources for parts? Do all manufacturers require you to "buy in" or register just to get them on the phone for a used machine? I.e. Manncorp charges $5k just to "register" a used machine.I am still developing a plan for how best to implement ESD protection. I'm thinking floor treatment, grounding straps, and perhaps ionized air blowers if they are actually effective.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2017, 10:19:03 pm
content: Here are a few alternative machines:Samsung CP30V-$6,000Samsung SM320-$35,000Juki KE-2030 w/ 95 feeders-$18,500Juki KE-750E w/ 75 feeders-$10,500Are these machines a better deal? I'm having a hard time finding specs like maximum part height. How do they compare in terms of used/aftermarket parts, support, and software?blueskull: It won't run 8 hours/dayeveryday for certain, but I'd like that ability or at least an easy upgrade path to that. I.e. I'd much rather spend the money/time on shipping and rigging heavy equipment initially rather than have to deal with moving stuff around to accommodate a slightly higher level of automation if I want to upgrade .How would you do double-sided boards on the mesh conveyor of the Heller I linked to? Is it a simple change to a conveyor that holds PCBs by the edge or should I look at a a different oven altogether?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2017, 10:28:49 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 16, 2017, 09:43:04 pmI can't comment on the big-name machines as I have no experience. It's probably as much about what you can get a good deal on used, parts availability, service info etc. as anything else.Many Chinese mfrs have figured out that feeders are hard, and the Yamaha ones have become a de-facto standard, and I think clones are now available - no idea how good.There are a few threads here on various machines, but probably not enough to draw conclusions from - maybe see if you can talk to users. Software is the big issue with most. I believe there is an OpenPnp interface for at least one machine now but don't know what state it's in.Chinese machines are designed for a market where labour is cheap. An example which I expect is common if not universal - in the case of a feed error, most machines wil just stop and cry for help, requiring attention every time it happens ( and it will always happen however good the feeders are), whearas what they should do is carry on with the next feeder, and do as much as it can, and at the end tell you what needs sorting out, so you can do it all in one go, minimising "care and feeding" time.As for support, some Chinese mfrs seem OK-ish at fixing things that they should have got right in the first place, but you should work on the basis that there won't be any, at least not as quick as you'd like, so you want plenty of spares, and a machine that's easy to work on. (e.g. do you have to take all the feeders off to get at one small consumable).If you are in the situation where you are making boards you have designed, there is a HUGE opportunity to streamline the whole setup process if you have reasonable access to the machine software, file formats etc. Once you get your PCB library part names matching the machine's ones, and the rotations consistent, you can write a simple utility to turn the PCB software's pick/place output straight into a machine job file, with fiducial locations etc., setup time can be no longer than it takes to pick & load the feeders.Having in-house pick/place for your own stuff vs. offering a service to others can be vastly different in terms of time & effort and viability.Only when you actually start using an assembly line, be it a cheap crappy tabletop or big-ass thing, will you start to understand all the little details quirks and issues that can arise, and there are lots.If you have little direct experience, but some time, it might almost be worth spending $5-10K now on a really cheap setup to treat as an "expendable" learning tool, which will give you a lot of insight into what you really need and where the money would best be spent.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2017, 10:43:12 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 16, 2017, 10:07:34 pmA couple of places I've used use this system, and don't understand why anyone would bother with framed stencils, but they do. If nothing else it saves a lot of storage space.As regards ESD, the reason big assembly places go to town is the risk ratio. They have a lot of semi-skilled staff who are there just to earn a buck, and can't necessarily be relied on to take the sort of care ( or have the sort of understanding) that a skilled operator like yourself has, so a simple "thou shalt wear anti-static jackets, shoes and wriststraps" rule is a fairly easy way to spend money to reduce risk.The consequences of ESD issues could be huge, so they need to play as safe as practical ( and be seen to do so), almost regardless of the probability of actual issues.In the same way that nowadays you often see workplaces where everyone has all manner of safety gear regardless of the actual risk, and is little more than just ass-covering.In your situation it's going to be much less of an issue as you (presumably) know what you're doing, so you're not going to need to spend anything like as much as you're smart enough to know how to handle boards, avoid obviously staticky materials etc. Apart from making sure the floor covering is non static-producing there's proably little else that's really necessary.IMO much of the ESD industry is barely more than Snake Oil.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2017, 10:46:25 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 16, 2017, 10:19:03 pmYou can put boards in holders onto the conveyor. Once place I've seen just made triangular spacers out of PCB tooling strips taped together with Kapton and rested the boards on those - seemed to work pretty well & it's what I do in my toaster oven now.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2017, 10:49:03 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 16, 2017, 10:07:34 pmI don't think I've ever seen an oven made by anyone else in an assembly place.

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 12:04:10 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 16, 2017, 10:43:12 pmMost of digital electronics will tolerate pretty much any handling. But power mosfets are a lot more fragile and will break down if you are not careful at handling the boards properly.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 12:32:15 am
content: Quote from: ar__systems on July 17, 2017, 12:04:10 amBack in the late 80's, I was with a company making inverters. Initially we were getting far to many failures in the field - from days after delivery to a year or more. The numbers could have been 25%. We implemented strict ESD provisions from the warehouse to assembly and the failures went down to essentially zero.The point is without ESD provisions, you can have significant unexplained failures of you product that can fail over a long time period - probably years. Parts can be ESD damaged and yet function perfectly on the assembly line. In fact it was rare to see an ESD damaged part actually fail on the production line. Very costly, very time consuming and very bad for your reputation. With ESD provisions, there is a good chance your product will run trouble free for decades.Mosfets are very heavily stressed devices and are more likely to eventually fail after a micro-puncture in the gate. It could be that many other devices can have similar damage but run for years before failure. The only way you can know that you probably are not sending out damaged devices is to implement strict ESD practices.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 12:39:13 am
content: I definitely take ESD safety seriously, and I'm looking for that sweet spot in terms of cost efficiency. ESD damage is, as you said, one of the most frustrating and hard to track down so it's worth investing a little. Naturally I don't have $50k to invest in copper floors and whatnot but I believe ESD safe floor mats + a floor treatment for the rest, ionizing air blowers, and perhaps wrist strap grounding points at each machine in case I'm touching anything would go a long way.Does anyone know is Assembleon products are still actively supported? Looks like Philips sold off that division...? Real shame watching companies give up tech divisions in which they are strong, particularly Philips. They did it with electron microscopes back in the day. I digress...

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 12:44:11 am
content: During the second pass I simply place the board on another blank board.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 12:49:28 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 17, 2017, 12:38:47 amThe thing is we were getting devices like the IRFP460 failing which is a 20V gate but with 4200pF capacitance. If you are talking about a chip with 1pF input capacitance, 2kV is probably very easily reached.As an engineer, I just know the feeling of frustration when products are failing and management is asking you to check for every possible reason for failure other then ESD failure. It can be months of fruitless work. The only real way to check for ESD failure is to implement strict ESD practices and see if reliability improves.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 01:47:16 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 17, 2017, 01:12:53 am20V at 4200 pF = 0.8uJ2000V at 1pF = 2uJSo yes, the energy to blow a 1pF pin on an esd protected IC is a little more then double the mosfet, it is still a similar magnitude. The human body has a capacitance in the 100-200pF range, so basically if your body is charged to over 2000V, you have enough energy to damage many esd protected IC pins.Simple ESD provisions eliminates this possibility.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 07:33:39 am
content: Hey guys, thank you for all the responses so far. I was considering the Samsung SM320 but one thing worries me - I have been googling for an hour and I can't seem to find an official website that even acknowledges the SM320 exists. Samsung doesn't seem to have an SMT equipment website - seems they've sold it? So I looked at Dynatech but apparently that website is now defunct. That brings me to Hanwha Precision Machinery which appears to be the successor. Hanwha appears to have a single service center for the US, located in California, the opposite side of the country.Assembleon (Now under K&S it appears) has a service center in Alpharetta, GA, which is literally a 30 minute drive. From some threads on SMTnet it looks like they do training there, as well as support and service. If that is indeed still the case this seems like a no brainer. From my experience in the CNC world support is very important, and it would certainly ease my mind if I knew support was available locally.Having said that, I have no idea how much I might expect to pay for training or support. If training is $5k and teaches me how to use the machine comprehensively that is not so bad, but if it's $50k... Still the only thing worse than expensive support isnosupport.Regardless of other differences in the technical capabilities of the machines, would I be making a mistake choosing a machine without local support?I'm going to call the local K&S office and see if I can schedule a visit to talk through some of these issues with them.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 08:12:52 am
content: Mike, it appears at a glance that Yamaha used to manufacture the GEM series Assembleon machines and so there should be Yamaha feeders that are compatible. A cursory eBay search for feeders seems to support this. Another plus in the Assembleon column it would seem...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 08:36:48 am
content: I've always found it pretty hard to find good info on used pick/place machines. The problem it's a very niche area, and some machines have origins from before the internet was much of a thing. It's traditionally been a high cost, high margin value, so people buying new machines would be dealt with by manufacturers' sales people.There are some dealers in used equipment, but there still seems to be a culture of keeping information to themselves - why should they publish service info when they can sell you parts for a fortune or sign you up for an expensive service contract?The people who use most of these, subcontract assemblers also IME seem to have a culture of not sharing what they regard as their own little tips, secrets etc. They don't seem to be the sort of people who'd do things like setting up a forum to co-operate with each other to support machines.This is the only forum I'm aware of with discussion on the bigger machines :http://www.smtnet.com/Forums/If you look at the few accounts of people who've bought old machines to get them working, they've pretty much had to figure everything out themselves.I don't think there's an easy answer, other than for people who are going through this process to share what they've learnt to make it slightly easier for the next guy. You need to do a lot of research, but that research can be pretty hard - you probably need to actually start calling people and going to see machines in action where you can.Meanwhile the Chinese are doing their own thing, and if they ever figure out that they need to hire a few western staff to show them what they are doing wrong ( and then actually take notice of what they say), they could have a much bigger impact on the market. The prices that most low-mid volume assembly places charge are based on amortising equipment that cost six figures, with high ongoing maintainance costs. Once you can buy a fast, reliable and easy to use machine for $5K, the economics of either doing in-house or a company setting up with a few dozen of them to undercut the old guard change radically.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 08:38:30 am
content: Re. ESD, I never said it wasn't a problem, just that the precautions you need to spend money on to deal with it can be substantially different depending on the nature of the environment and skill level of the opperators.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 09:09:48 pm
content: The Philips "gem" series all need 3-phase power. The earlier machines like the CSM can run on single phase. So, make sure you have the required power. (I see you mention that farther down.) You ought to be able to find a place where an air compressor can be placed (on the roof, behind building, etc.$38K seems pretty high, a lot of machines are going for less. Some of the Gem line are for super fast assembly, with 8 to 20 nozzles on them. Do you need this level of production?Philips Assembleon is out of this business, as far as I know, so spare parts could be a problem. There does seem to be a pretty active grey market in spares, but I don't know the quality.My CSM84 is limited to 6.5mm component height. That actually is not that huge a problem, but yes, some larger electrolytic caps could be too tall.As for software, my CSM has amazing levels of fault recovery, you can even POWER DOWN in the middle of the board, and it will pick up and finish the board when you come back up!(I've had to do that on a couple occasions when things went really badly during a run.) Figuring out what feeders you need and how much that will cost is important, they can really ADD UP!Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 09:12:47 pm
content: OK, know that there is a lot of learning to be done before everything works well. Also, stencil design is really important to getting good reflow results. The smaller the pad/lead and the lead pitch, the more the aperture area needs to be reduced so you don't get solder bridges. Don't ASK how I know all about this!Jon

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 09:43:25 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 17, 2017, 09:09:48 pmAny decent sized reflow oven is going to need 3-phaseQuoteTry that with Chinese software

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 09:45:05 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 17, 2017, 07:33:39 amIf training a skilled person how to use a P&P line costs $5k, either someone is taking the piss or the software is terrible.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 09:49:20 pm
content: QuoteDREAM ON!!! My experience is I have to babysit the P&P machine all the time it runs. I can go a few feet away and monitor it by sound, but come running every time the feeders jam.Now, maybe the newer air-powered feeders are a bit better than the old mechanical feeders that my CSM84 uses for 8 and 12mm tape, so you might do a bit better. But, the glue tension of the cover tapes is all over the place, I can even figure out the diameter of the roller that applies the glue, as the feeders stick every so many inches when that spot with the heavy glue application rolls around again. The cover tape won't pull off, and the nozzle tries to pick parts through the cover tape. An occasional mis-pick on cheap passives is no problem, but my machine is set to halt on 4 mis-picks of the same part. So, full automation of the system doesn't make any sense. I have to visually inspect the placed boards for obvious defects anyway. Generally, if the machine was happy with the build, the only thing I need to look at is fine-pitch parts to make sure they are well-aligned. So, I don't do more than a fairly cursory inspection of the passives.So, after each setup for a different board, I have now combined specific component tapes with specific feeders, and have to get everything running reliably. Sometimes I have to hang C-clamps on the tails of the cover tape or component tape to give them a little more pull, or sometimes I "choke up" on the springs in the feeders to get more tension. Once I get all that worked through on the first 10 or so boards, things settle down a bit, but I still get mis-picks and other issues.Oh, and the Philips machines were made by Yamaha, so the feeders (and a lot of other things) are interchangeable between corresponding models.Jon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 09:52:32 pm
content: Thank you jmelson! I do have some experience designing stencils and apertures, I make all of my own part libraries and footprints and I'm very anal about it. I've spent too long researching this topic to make the best footprints and stencil apertures feasible for my work. Knock on wood, I've been stenciling boards by hand down to chip-scale microBGAs and so far everything has worked well. For production I know the game is different but I feel ready for the challenge at the entry level.I see that Philips Assembleon doesn't exist but apparently the same machines are being sold/serviced under a new name. Am I mistaken on this? There's a difference between "doesn't exist" and "changed ownership." I'm still trying to get in touch with a sales engineer from K&S to confirm this.There are a few Juki machines I see available, any idea how those compare in terms of parts/software/etc? What about Samsung?On the feeder front, Yamaha feeders and Assembleon feeders (which from the 2000s era seem to be compatible) are pretty cheap on eBay. I feel like I could get almost 100 feeders for <$10k.I certainly wouldn't say Ineed8 nozzles but if the machine works, the feeders are reliable, and the price is right, why not? My thought is that low speed or hobby-grade machines will turneverytimeline into a tight timeline. For example, I have to assemble 5k boards by the end of the year, with ~105 components on each. If an Assembleon could realistically place 10k CPH, that means it needs to run for 7 8-hour shifts. That's a week and a half. On the contrary a 1k CPH machine would require over 2 months! AND that's assuming that the lower grade machine works perfectly that entire time. I'd need to purchase 3-4 Neoden 4s to feel comfortable and I'm very skeptical of that option vs. even a heavily used pro machine. If I have 6 weeks and the Assembleon breaks down for 3 of them, I still come out ahead. So if I have access to the speed I much prefer to take advantage of it. Provided of course that spares are available and don't cost a truly stupid amount of money.I am also inquiring on SMTNet but I know how very seasoned professionals typically respond to this kind of request. All about ROI, save for the big machines, etc... In my case if I can get the 5k boards done then all of the equipment is bought and paid for, and I'm getting the industrial space + electricity for a song. That means I'll own a working SMT line debt-free as soon as this order is out. Even if it makes $0 thereafter in profit that's a win in my book. Just need to get there!

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 09:56:04 pm
content: Regarding the power, the space I'm planning to lease has 240 3-phase (high-leg Delta) so that will do fine for most of these machines. There are a few reflow ovens that run on 240. If 480 is really truly necessary I can pick up a transformer for a few thousand. I think a 100-200A 240 circuit will be enough to run all of the equipment.Regarding the feeders that is very surprising. Is this the case even with the newer Yamaha/Philips feeders? Surely there is a solution to this problem that lies between spending $2k/ea on new smart feeders and getting constant mispicks on old feeders. Which feeders does your machine use?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 09:56:24 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 17, 2017, 09:49:20 pmThat's at least in part down to poorly designed software - if a feeder has a problem, it should carry on with the next feeder.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 09:59:47 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 17, 2017, 09:45:05 pmFair point, but I am trying to brace myself for the cost. At an old job they paid for a couple of us to take 2 Solidworks FEA courses. Each course cost the company $3-5k per employee and the "instructor" was a joke. Didn't even have the foggiest idea about basic engineering concepts. I imagine much industry geared towards large businesses is like this. I hope to be wrong!

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 10:00:42 pm
content: QuoteWatch OUT! I know nothing, I support my machine all by myself, with a little help from the net. BUT, I have heard that Assembleon formally disavowed all the earlier Philps/Assembleon machines when they parted ways, and offer no support on the Gem series or anything older. So, I'd very strongly advise you to check with them that they WILL support any particular machine you might want to buy. Also, some later machines had software locks that would expire, and you had to regularly buy a new license to keep running the machine. Also, they might charge a huge fee to re-license a machine to a new owner. Not sure this applies to Assembelon, but I've heard horror stories about people who bought machines and then NEVER got them running, as the re-license cost more than the used machine.Just a caveat emptor.Jon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 10:08:28 pm
content: I will definitely not purchase an Assembleon until I speak with K&S face-to-face in their office. It does appear they offer spares on their webshop but as I am new to this I'm not 100% confident they cover these machines.Speaking of which, can you suggest any reputable used SMT equipment dealers? Or perhaps which ones to stay away from...

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 10:14:52 pm
content: There are a few Juki machines I see available, any idea how those compare in terms of parts/software/etc? What about Samsung?On the feeder front, Yamaha feeders and Assembleon feeders (which from the 2000s era seem to be compatible) are pretty cheap on eBay. I feel like I could get almost 100 feeders for <$10k.QuoteWell, I think one fallacy is that the faster machine scales linearly. The problem is a feeder jam takes as long to fix whether the machine is 1000 CPH or 10K CPH. So, a feeder jam causes a much worse impact for a high speed machine. Also, there is a setup and fixturing time where the machine is passing out the finished board and bringing in the blank one.It is not assembling during that time. So, don't assume 105 components at 10K CPH means each board takes .0105 hours or 37.8 seconds. It is probably quite a bit more than that.Anyway, every feeder jam will cost you maybe the time to assemble 3-5 boards.I have a very slow batch oven (a GE toaster oven from WalMart) so the assembly speed is not usually the limit. (Don't laugh too hard, I've assembled over 1000 boards with this setup!)QuoteThere are some VERY helpful people there, who helped me enormously in selecting a good machine (CSM84) for a very wide variety of part types, and in getting going with manufacturing.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 10:18:19 pm
content: QuoteNo. I bought my machine direct from the previous user. He was motivated by new machines coming in in 2 weeks, and the deal was VERY good, and got better each day!So, I can't recommend a broker, but definitely watch out, get everything in writing, etc.Jon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 10:19:39 pm
content: Hereis their online shop for the Americas region. They do list the Xiii machines which I believe are all of older Philips vintage. So that gives me some hope. Guess we will see once I talk to them!Regarding SMTnet I agree, they certainly seem to know their stuff. Just takes a bit to get the feel of the place. Lots of advertising seems to be going on. My only goal is to not get discouraged by those who would suggest that if I don't have $500k to spend to not bother at all. My needs are different from most on that forum. Still I will take all the info I can!Regarding placement speed the Topaz Xii is rated for something like 15k CPH. So even derating by a substantial amount to account for board transfer leaves a fairly high speed. Your point about feeder jams is well taken, and I'm afraid I just won't know for sure how a particular machine runs with particular feeders until it is powered up.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 10:30:37 pm
content: QuoteYou CAN run an old machine with various resources from the net and no factory support. There are a bunch of freelance techs who know the machines really well, and have parts available. A lot of the parts in these machines are off the shelf air valves, sensors and other sort-of commodity items that can be had through other channels. But, of course, real factory help would be great, if you can get it.I have seen Juki machines, they are fairly similar to the Assembleon machines, just a little different. Generally, there are 3 files. One tells what component to put where, one gives the settings for each feeder, and one has the vision info for each part (# leads, search region, etc.) This stuff is all different in the small details of the files, but the overall concept pretty much has to be the same for all the machines. Generally, you can enter all this info directly on the machine, but that is a pain. I wrote a c program to create the first (part on board) file from a list of component vs. feeder info and the placement info from the CAD package. I edit the feeder file on the machine and then save to PC. I don't have the vision system on my machine, so I don't have to deal with that.Jon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 10:39:08 pm
content: Oh I definitely feel comfortable maintaining the machine myself, and as you say most parts are standard or easily replaced. What concerns me more are proprietary parts such as nozzles and whatnot. It's unlikely I think that a big piece of metal will "go bad" and most of the other things *SHOULD* be replaceable. Even so, I want to spend as much as reasonable to get a working machine that doesn't need an exorbitant amount of maintenance.What I'd really like a machine to be able to do is:0201 components up to "large" chips. Say a 128pin TQFP.20mm component heightThrough hole placement for connectors and such, don't really care about axial leaded components which is a whole other process.5k CPH minimum realistic outputAble to feed from cut-tape holdersFeeders that don't jam!Vision centering/alignmentI don't think that's toooooo much to ask for a machine, I have seen more than a few used machines that can do this in my price range. So the option is to get a single machine that could do these things for <$50-60k, or 2 machines that together can do this for <$30k each.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 10:40:11 pm
content: Also, would you be willing to share your .c file? I have no present use for it but I'd be interested to see how this is handled.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 10:40:30 pm
content: The Gem Xii series is at least two generations newer than my CSM machine, which is really old school. I'm not sure if those were still built by Yamaha. There was a split at some point.There are a lot of guys on smtnet that have modest shops with used machines, or are techs supporting shops like that. You should know, just from the traffic on eBay in these machines, that not all contract assemblers are in gleaming 500,000 square foot shops with 25 P&P machines in rows vanishing toward infinity. There are a lot of nearly garage shop outfits out there, either OEMs that are doing the in-house thing or actually are small contract assemblers.There is also the Yahoo group for diy pick&place :https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/PicknPlaceThere are several guys with Yamaha / Philps machines, but I think most of them are closer to my vintage than what you are looking at.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 10:49:01 pm
content: Yikes, 0201!! Those are pretty small. You'd better check with somebody who is actually DOING those size parts to make sure any particular machine handles them.20 mm component height? You realize this means the nozzle stroke must be 40 mm to clear parts already on the board?Some through hole can be accommodated, but it means you need solder paste or preforms on the other side of the board. Tricky. And, of course, the parts have to be made so that a machine can handle them. Not always available.My Philips feeder handle cut tape fairly well. You lose the first 3 parts or so, and have to splice to the cover tape, but it works OK.Feeders that don't jam? Well, tell that to the component vendors. There is nothing wrong with my Philps feeders. But, the wild variability of component tapes makes this a HARD JOB!!How about cover tape pull strength that varies from 0 to 200 gm force every 6 inches on the tape? How about component tapes that are 6 months old, and the cover tape just falls off, spilling all the parts out? I don't think this is the machine's fault.Vision is pretty standard these days.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 10:52:39 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 17, 2017, 10:40:11 pmIt is actually a file on the Yahoo PicknPlace group, but if you can't find it there, I can send it. It is pretty specific to the Protel CAD/CAM package we use and the Philips placement file format.But, must systems do things in a fairly similar way. There's another guy on PicknPlace that extended my program to also make the feeder file.Jon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 11:02:31 pm
content: I know, it's a lot to ask, but it seems as though 0201s have been reasonably commonplace for a while now. One of the test videos from a vendor on the Topaz Xii shows it placing 0201s seemingly without issue, but of course who knows how much tweaking and fine tuning they did for that video. In any case it certainly seems within the capability of the machine assuming it's in good order. I realize the nozzle height needs to be 2x the max component height but I will be very cross if I end up having to place hundreds of connectors by hand! Pin-in-paste seems like a crapshoot that requires some finesse, but I'd like to at least experiment with it.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 12:21:02 am
content: 0201 is at least as much about the feeder as the machine. Some machines have special feeders for 0201's

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 08:20:41 am
content: Just thinking out loud as a non-expert:I have seen assembly lines with multiple P&P machines in series since some components have specifications that are not for every machine like large connectors and heavy or high components.If you need 0201 would it be an option to get a seperate P&P machine just for that or would the cost be staggering?

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 08:33:56 am
content: Since nobody else seems to have said this yet:You really shouldn't set up an SMT line as a hobby. It's a fulltime job (well really several) to maintain and run one to professional standards, and there are likely people out there who will be more open to dealing with the mundanity of it. It would make more sense to subcontract the actual assembly under your supervision.There are exceptions, like specialised / short order requirements (like needing to place 1000 LEDs on a board on very short notice).Not sure if this helps since you really seem to like the idea, just thought it's worth mentioning

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 08:43:26 am
content: Quote from: janekm on July 18, 2017, 08:33:56 amIf you want it to run all day, every day to maximise capacity or cover the cost of a new machine that's probably true, and for the first few weeks you will probably be doing little else while you get things up & running. However for a more modest throughput, you will still need to be nearby in case of problems but hopefully as the process gets more streamlined it should require less attention. In practice you probably want to run it in batch mode - flat-out doing nothing else for 1 or 2 days a week.Another issue is whether you can concentrate on other work when being close enough to supervise it with the noise. You also don't want to be burning power in the oven ( which may have hours of heat-up time) unless you can keep it well-fed.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 01:33:29 pm
content: I know it sounds odd janekm. I certainly don't want to sound arrogant, as the guys on SMTnet pointed out there will be quite a large education involved. I am OK with that. To bare my soul a bit it's basically a lifelong dream of mine to own a warehouse where I can live and work that is full of prototyping/manufacturing equipment and machines. This is a tiny step towards that. Call it a labor of love if you like.Despite that I need to make sure I can deliver for this client. If I can do that, it doesn't matter if I only take a single $1k contract per month after that. I'll be happy with it.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 01:52:09 pm
content: mike, I like the noise. In fact I have a much easier time working in a noisy environment. Which is pretty fortunate in this case!As for power, the space I'm looking at is ~$950/month including all utilities. They will even run a 200A breaker for the unit. I warned them about the power consumption and they said it was not a problem, it's all rolled into the fixed cost. That's insanely cheap for this area of Atlanta, but then it's a pretty unique complex. I certainly don't want to burn power just for fun but for the near future it's not a limitation.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 03:22:50 pm
content: Hey guys and gals,I spoke with an engineer from K&S today. I can say he helped put my mind a bit more at ease.Long story short he outlined one of their service packages, and told me they do offer full support/training on these machines.The support package is $7,500 per machine per year, at least for the first year. Not sure if this goes down past the first year. It includes some training but they also offer a 4-day on-site training course for $2k.The service package includes:* Annual agreement for planned maintenance and calibration service* Agreement begins January 12, 2017 and ends January 11, 2018* Covers qty. 1 Topaz X and qty. 1 Emerald X* 2 services per machine (1 major PM with head rebuild & 1 light PM)* Machine calibration performed following each PM service* Includes Assembléon PM parts kits* Includes priority dispatch of engineer & parts if repairs are needed* Includes a 5% discount on other after- market parts and servicesWhat do you guys think? Is that a tolerable contract? If I could guarantee one machine would be fully operational and I would be trained on its use within a couple of weeks, that certainly puts my mind at ease in the event of "oh shit I have no idea what to do and the machine is acting funny and I now have a $40k boat anchor!"The guys on SMTnet are helpful as well. One of them says he set up a complete line including a new (!!) Samsung SM482 for the same as my budget. Which is nuts and I feel like if I could get such a machine with feeders, an oven, printer, etc... for this budget that would be a total no-brainer decision. Apparently they are cheaper if you buy them directly but I'm not sure who to contact about that and what is involved with shipping/import duties/etc...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 03:28:41 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 18, 2017, 03:22:50 pmIs that an error or are they trying to short-change you on time ?

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 03:30:16 pm
content: I asked about that, awaiting a response. If that IS the case then I would have to wait until January to start a contract and in the meantime hope the machines work well enough and that training is still available.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 03:30:51 pm
content: Might be worth checking the service intervals are appropriate for your expected use - I'd expect most of it is down to run-time, rather than elapsed time - a machine running all day is going to need more attention than one used more lightly

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 03:33:30 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 18, 2017, 03:30:16 pmIf they really are that inflexible, run a mile. Probably just an error from copying/pasting a previous quote2K for 4 days training sounds not unreasonable, especially if it's from someone who really knows the machine & you can grill them on maintainance etc.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 03:33:45 pm
content: Ok I just received a response, they say the start-end dates were just an example and we can start the contract any time.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 03:35:59 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 18, 2017, 03:22:50 pmI think Adafruit run Samsung machines - maybe ask them for a contact

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 03:38:14 pm
content: 2k for 4days is cheap. Esp. If it is for a small group.Last year I had a course in a class of 32 persons it was 6,5k pp for 5 days

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 04:10:32 pm
content: That was my thought as well. It would really just be me but if I had the opportunity I would pull in a couple of engineer friends that could be called on to help if needed. May as well spread the knowledge.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 08:29:49 pm
content: I'm sure you could learn things from their training, but these machines are just NOT that complicated. After all, they do something that could be done by a human with a pair of tweezers.I have the Philips manuals for my machine, and it was all quite easy to follow. (I have 3 generations of manuals, and the first generation was a hideous translation from Japanese through Dutch to English. The later manuals were a lot easier to follow.) Make sure you get ALL the manuals with your machine, not just the operating manual but the maintenance manual and parts book, too. The maintenance manual tells a lot of stuff on setup and handling operational difficulties. The parts book tells you which feeders to use for what type of tape, which nozzles to use on what parts, etc.Jon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 08:39:39 pm
content: I had that thought but was afraid to say it... I design motion systems at work and I'm not a stranger to the methods, tools, parts, and suppliers in that world. Even so many esoteric machines can have a nice dose of their "secret sauce" that helps them run so well. Still a bearing is a bearing most of the time.That is a good point about the manuals. If Philips manuals in the new millennium are anything like their old TEM manuals then they ought to be pretty comprehensive. I will inquire about this. Apparently this machine was owned by BAE systems and well maintained. I imagine that was a clean and well kept environment but who knows.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 08:48:32 pm
content: Oh, and in reply to the guys who say you are crazy, although I might partially agree with them, your financials don't seem to make any sense.But, I run a one man company, making mostly motion control boards for hobby and small shop machine tools. I also do manufacturing for devices related to my "day job".So, I got a used Philips CSM84 for $3600, which I think included shipping from Boston to St. Louis. I got about 50 assorted feeders with it. My CSM84 has 3 nozzles, but no vision, no nozzle exchange.I did get a small vibratory feeder and the mechanical alignment station. With these options, it has capacity for about 70 8mm feeders. I built a frame that will hold waffle trays in the back.I took off one of the chuck jaw sets so I can use one nozzle with the mechanical alignment station. That works for larger chips like FPGAs, or anything too large for the other chuck jaws.I made up a larger nozzle for this on the lathe. So, I have one nozzle set up for 0603 - 1210 or so parts, one set for SO16 and similar, and one for the big parts.I got the machine in 2007, so have been running it for almost 10 years, now. I was making boards within 2 weeks of the machine arriving. The first board, I composed the placement file manually from the CAD/CAM placement file, and once I had a good understanding of that file, I wrote a program to do it. I think the biggest problem I had with the machine was getting the serial port hooked up to a PC and working! I don't know why it was so difficult, but I remember fussing with it for quite some time. The machine was not perfectly calibrated, and I had to deal with that over time, especially when I took on a board with 0603 parts. I had to get serious about making a jig to check feeder alignment.I did have some crazy problems like once I got an error in the middle of a board "memory full". No such error in the manuals! I eventually figured out it was the MIS info that it collects on every board type made. You have to clear that out periodically, or it fills up the memory. Not too happy to get an error message that is NOT in the book!So, I'm not usually making boards for anybody else, just my own products. Having my own machine allows me to make fairly short runs, and not have thousands of $ of inventory sitting around. When I stared out, a run of 12 boards was normal. Now, I do more like 40 -60 boards at a time. I think the contract assemblers would charge a LOT extra for such small batches.JonJon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 09:13:38 pm
content: I'm happy to explain my financials if they don't make sense.To start, Macrofab wants to charge $60k for these boards for assembly alone. And that will be the case on every. single. batch. China is "cheaper" if your time is free and you have the expertise to do it. Many people allude to this magical CM that can take the files and pump out 1k boards for $1 each without any back and forth. Please find them for me!

author: mairo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 01:17:03 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 17, 2017, 09:56:04 pmOn the power topic, I am not sure if it has been covered, but for an industrial size line (the type of machines you are talking about) you might be looking for a few tens of thousands of dollars in power bill alone per year - maybe research in to that as well. The oven will be the main consumer here.Another areas to look also are air compressors (your PnP and stencil printer most probably will need this) and component storage in particular temperature and humidity.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 02:41:23 pm
content: Quote from: mairo on July 19, 2017, 01:17:03 pmMaybe also oven for baking boards & componants to remove moisture

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 08:33:49 pm
content: $60 for EACH board, in a batch of 1000? With YOU supplying the boards and parts? YIKES! No wonder I'm so happy doing my own boards! Sheesh!I had no IDEA that was the going rate.Jon

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 09:06:56 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 19, 2017, 08:33:49 pmDo you know how large these boards are and how many components they have??Neither do I.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 09:26:29 pm
content: Quote from: The Soulman on July 19, 2017, 09:06:56 pma per-placement cost would probably be more useful

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 10:07:31 pm
content: I believe the OP said they were fairly small boards with about 130 parts/board. But, I could be remembering some other thread.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 10:29:38 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 17, 2017, 09:56:04 pmOK, the older Philips CSM and Yamaha YM had purely mechanical feeders for 8 and 12mm tapes. The air piston that drives the nozzle down also trips a lever on the feeder to advance it. When the piston trips the lever, it retracts a blade that covers the pocket in the part tape. When the nozzle has lifted, the blade advances with the tape, keeping the next pocket covered, so the part doesn't bounce out of the pocket.Tripping the lever backs the ratchet up one step, releasing the lever causes the ratchet to advance the sprocket and pull the cover tape.On 16mm and wider tapes, the lever activates an air valve on the feeder. On my old CSM, the air-powered feeders need to have tubes pushed into quick-connect fittings on the air manifold. Kind of a pain, so newer machines have the air manifold fitting in one of the locating pins on the bottom of the feeder.All the Philps/Yamaha feeders are totally mechanical, no electrical/electronic parts in them. I think that is true with the Gem series, as well.They use sort-of toothed wheels that looks similar to gears to pull the cover tapes. They can slip a little so as to pull just the right amount of tape. Sometimes the cover tape works over to the side of the pulling wheels and causes a bind. Sometimes variation in paper tape thickness or strength of the cover tape glue can cause some sticking of the feeder. It seems 0805 0.1uF caps are the worst, I have run through many reels of them, and they are always intermittently sticky.Jon

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 02:30:38 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 19, 2017, 08:33:49 pmIt's definitely not the going rate... Macrofab are specialised on doing short runs so the cost for a run of 1000 is going to be much more than what would be typical. Even in the US I'd wager.

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 02:36:20 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 18, 2017, 09:13:38 pmNo, you're certainly right about there being no magical CM. I do help some clients of mine organise manufacture of boards I designed for them (or more complete products) in China and it's far from a "hand over the files, get a bunch of boards" affair. It helps that I'm living in Shenzhen so I can pop over if there's any questions about testing / parts placement etcNo back and forth is possible (and can be done at $1 per low complexity board) but it will typically result in boards that don't work since you weren't asked about the orientation of that one component that is not clear on your assembly drawing$60k per batch does sound high to me though... I'm sure if you asked around you'd get much more reasonable quotes, even from US-based companies (perhaps some that will push your order to China for you and have someone on the ground).

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 02:38:06 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 18, 2017, 01:33:29 pmSounds like you have the perfect attitude to make this workEspecially since you already have mechatronics experience and so should know what to expect.TBH I mostly posted my comment for the benefit of others who might come across this thread and might think the advice applies to them...

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 03:03:03 am
content: Hey everyone, I'll answer some questions and then some updates.In regards to power, indeed there is no charge for power. I'm looking at a 500sq. ft. unit for $900 - power included. Even the 50A of power that this setup will draw. Iwillhave to pay for running the service from the panel but that should only be ~$1k. So if I run the oven for 150 days a year, I'm getting around $5k of power for "free." But hey, they've been well warned and that's the deal so I won't complain.The boards are about 7"x5" each, oddly shaped, kind of like that zig-zag tetris piece. There is no particularly challenging placement on the board. There is one single 0.5mm pitch 8-WSON buck converter, everything else is TQFP, SOIC, and smallest passives are 0603. About 5 SMT connectors. Why the placement cost was so crazy from Macrofab, I don't know. That was $60k assembly cost, not including the component cost. Price didn't change regardless of whether they purchased the parts or I supplied them. That's pretty nuts. That's for a delivery date ofOctober 30th!As for cost per placement, I'm getting $10.66 per board for 5k from Macrofab. And this is still missing 2 large parts, a through-hole PSU brick that needs to be wave or hand-soldered, and a ~20x50mm PCB assembly that comes in JEDEC trays. That comes out to just around $0.10 per placement. That's quite high. I'll point out that PCB.NG was no better. They've currently spent over a month trying to get a run of 100 different boards from Advanced Circuits. Those boards are 4"x2" and have 2 through-hole rotary switches, andthat's it. Over a month. For 100 boards. AC says they have a part in stock, turns out they don't. Delay a week while they mill about. Say they're getting some in soon from a distributor, then they say the distributor lied and there is no stock. Mill around for another week. It took me all of 2 days to connect with my agent in China and get an invoice for 10k switches direct from the manufacturer. That is where I add the value here and why they are willing to go this route.In fairness, the client will be paying nearly double this for their first assembly run with me. The difference being that subsequent assembly runs will be drastically cheaper. If I can run 1000 boards for $3 each within a week, I'm happy with that. That's $0.03 per placement, I think that's extremely reasonable, since I only have to pay myself and the landlord. AND they will be able to get moderate (100-500) quantities within a week if they want. Even if 2 weeks they don't need to pay me crazy expedite fees, nor deal with the long process of re-sourcing a BOM to suit the supply chain in China.The pure parts cost on this board is low, maybe $20 total. There are two parts, a PSU and a specialized IC, that make up half the cost. The PSU I am sourcing direct from the distributor in China, the IC from Digikey but the price is actually higher overseas. The overall price difference between DigiKey and China is negligible. Passives are so cheap they're basically free. A reel of 10,000 resistors is $20 on Digikey. Not worth thinking about at these volumes. They are taking the risk and the initial expense so that they can focus on what they're good at, growing their business, and I can handle the nitty gritty PCBA details. Assuming their business survives otherwise I think this is a fantastic arrangement for both of us.Of course, we will see how true this is once they sign the contract. I hope that explains my reasoning better. If you don't have employees to pay, don'tneedto be competitive on a large scale in the PCBA business, get power for free, and want to have fancy machines for fun, it's easier to justify.And yes, 500sq. ft. is tiny, this will be a cramped room.Here is my idealized room planafter getting the machine footprints and measuring the room. I believe I can get everything seen here for ~$120k, including a service contract and training. The PnP will have to come out quite a bit from the wall to allow room for access to the rear feeders, which may well break the conveyor chain. That will be annoying but I'll live with hand loading boards into the oven. Alternately I could place the magazine loader after the PnP and once it's full spend a few minutes feeding the reflow oven. But at least that gives me some time to leave the machine alone (we'll see how that pans out...). With a realistic CPH of 6-7k and 9 PCBs per panel I should get a panel every 10 minutes.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 03:20:06 am
content: Had to break up that huge post. Janekm you're right, Macrofab is probably not optimized for these runs. It's about the same cost per board they quoted for 1k.Now then on to the updates. I visited the Kulicke & Soffa service center today and spoke with a couple of their techs and a sales guy. They helped me out tremendously in understanding what to look for since info is so scarce online. They even gave me the operator's manuals and service manuals for all of the machines I was considering.As for the feeders, this is how it was explained to me:Yamaha and Assembleon machines were basically the same machines until Assembleon launched the iFlex line. The pneumatic feeders are indeed cross compatible between Assembleon and Yamaha, up to a point. The point being where both Yamaha and Assembleon developed their own electronic feeders, and here there is a fork in the road. These are NOT cross compatible, nor are they forwards/backwards compatible. You can't use electric feeders in a machine made for pneumatic and vice versa. I got to examine both feeders up close to get an idea of how they work and the differences. The electronic feeders seem pretty badass, and they each have 2x Maxon motors in them. No wonder they're so expensive!As for the Assembleon machines,someof the GEM series machines had the option to use the ITF/electronic feeders. As did the Assembleon MG series machines that came after. The MC series machines which came after that use the electronic feeders as standard. The TTF (twin tape) feeders are pretty cool too, they can support two separate BOM items which was my main concern and the feed pitch is adjustable for each reel, at least on the electronic feeders.On top of that, RFID feeder recognition is an option on the more recent pneumatic feeders (with the blue/green handles) and standard on the electronic feeders, but if the machine does not have that feature built into the feeder bank then you're hosed. It sounds like a very neat feature for ease of setup.As for K&S I did get a good impression from them. The fact they are a 30 minute drive away is something I don't think I can overlook, so I have committed to an Assembleon machine. Which one is the question, I have gotten quotes for the Gem Topaz Xii, Opal Xii, Emerald Xii, MG-8, and MC-1. The MC-1 quote was $66.5k. The MG-8s are somewhere around $40-50k which the techs told me was a little bit high. One of those lots however comes with 600 (!!!) feeders. Even if 500 are trash that leaves me with plenty, and the cost to get a feeder repaired/calibrated at K&S is $95 each. If you're getting the feeders for a song then $95 is extremely reasonable for a manufacturer repaired/calibrated feeder in my opinion.I can get an Opal Xii, MG-8, and the 600 feeders for $80k (single lot). Unfortunately I don't have room for two machines. I believe the MG-8 is the most flexible option as it can place 25mm tall components, long connectors, 0201 without breaking a sweat, and has force-control heads for through hole and small press-fit placement. It can also place up to 45x100mm components. The only downside is it's a little slower at 7.3k IPC9850 but that not a problem for me. I'll take the flexibility over 2x the speed any day. Beats the hell out of spending 14 hours manually assembly 20 boards.The feeder maintenance they do in house at the service facility and they do have quite an array of spare parts. The techs seemed very knowledgeable about the machines. Good guys based on my encounter. Will Assembleon be around in 5 years, will they have good market penetration, etc... I don't really care. As long as they're around for a few and can support my machine I'll be happy.All in all I feel like the 2 weeks I've spent googling everything possible about these machines is starting to pay off and I'm getting close to a package that will serve me well. Now just need to get that contract!

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 03:25:18 am
content: Macrofab's prices are "unheard of" and not in the way they mean it. They are super expensive even for North America.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 03:37:33 am
content: QuoteThanks for this information, was about to try their online quote system (have to made tonnes of changes to fit into their system just to get a quote, it even has to be in mils!). I think I can just skip them.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 03:43:35 am
content: If anyone knows of a US based PCBA with a good online quoting system, I'm all ears. They either have a good system but charge stupid prices for it, or ask you to submit an RFQ before they'll dare tell you anything. "Will this cost $500 or $500 million?" "Sorry we really can't say without a formal quote." No I'm not going to "call you" because I have 50 other people that are asking the same thing rather than just saying the damn price.I hope we see more reasonable prices from these sorts of outfits soon. The reason people pay these crazy prices is the convenience and visibility.

author: mairo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 06:27:49 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 20, 2017, 03:03:03 amMake sure all fits via the front doorAlso it is very good idea to be able to have quick access all around the machines.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 06:48:39 am
content: Assembly costs for smaller runs vary a lot, and if comparing costs vs. a big investment in doing it yourself should be looking at costs from at least 4 or 5 places over a number of boards.I find that costs can easily vary by a factor of at least 2, and this can be very inconsistent for different jobs quoted by the same two assemblers.IME in the UK. $0.10 per placement is at the higher end of what I'd expect to be paying, and half that can be findable from the right place for some jobs.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 06:50:45 am
content: We made a machine once that didn't fit trough the door, because the door wasn't compliant to building standards... We had to reinforce it on the inside and put it on it's side to get in. Fun times. It was a large rittal cabinet.I am missing a testing station on the floor plan, is testing done somewhere else?Do you also need a small fridge to store paste in? And an oven for MSL parts?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 08:56:42 am
content: Quote from: mairo on July 20, 2017, 06:27:49 amYes - check carefully about machine access. Every assembler I've ever visited had access to all sides of all machines. You don't want to have to dismantle all the conveyors to pull a machine out to access something.You also have a lot of wasted space in the middle. I'd be inclined to have the machines back-to-back in the centre with a walkway between them - that way you can use the wall space for storage shelves etc.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 02:44:19 pm
content: The door can certainly be made bigger.One area of concern to me is the floor. It is concrete and can support heavy machinery but it is rather rough and not perfectly smooth/flat.After speaking with someone from SMTNet in greater depth (the founder of Olimex actually!) and getting his detailed advice, I looked for new Samsung machines from Korea/HK. New as in packed for sea shipping in the Samsung factory. I was quoted 70k for a new Samsung SM482. That's pretty crazy considering it's a $200k machine in the US! I'm also looking at the SM451 as it is slower but can place more components.Has anyone here got opinions on this choice? Choose a new Samsung machine with difficult access to support, or a used Assembleon machine with a service contract + training. The Assembleon MG-8 w/ feeders will cost around $40-50k. The Samsung with feeders will be about 90k (waiting on feeder quote) + freight. On the other hand the Samsung would be a new machine that ought to run for quite a while without issues, while the Assembleon is 10 years old...The Samsung leaves $40k for the rest which is enough but not much "uh-oh" money. Then again it should be a nicer and more reliable machine, maybe worth skipping all of the fancy stuff and hand loading boards for a while.Very difficult decisions.Re: Machine access, I think I can put the PnP in the center of the room, so that the whole line is in almost a square shape. That leaves easy access, maybe not as nice feng shui but, eh...This order is "only" about 600 panels to process. Maybe worth just getting the basics - stencil, PnP, reflow, and shuttling them by hand for now.Mike just saw your post, yes that may be a better idea! Plus the floor is a little nicer in the center.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 03:02:51 pm
content: No labels butthis seems like a nicer layoutfrom a usability standpoint, no?Jereon3, I have a paste fridge already that can fit under the table. There is no testing station as test fixtures don't exist yet and I certainly don't think I can fit an automated test system into the budget. The client will be testing each board as it's assembled to the final product so they are not sure they want test fixtures at all. I of course recommend them but it is more time. Their call. As long as my boards are done well. No oven for MSL or dry box. This is high on the list. Worst case I can make one, a dry box is simple enough. An oven for bakeout I don't have yet but that is relatively simple as long as I monitor it so as not to cook $50k of components...

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 08:07:37 pm
content: 500 sq ft?Are you sure you have this right? A stencil printer, Gem-series P&P and a Heller oven? I don't think the machines can be STORED in 500 sq ft, and you'd go NUTS trying to actually run them in that space. My CSM84 has a conveyor, and front and back feeder rails, so it needs access on all FOUR sides! I see you have the P&P against the wall! So, eliminate the rear feeder, suddenly, you are down to half the number of feeders. Is that enough? Also, it may require you to move the machine for maintenance. So, my CSM is actually only about 35 sq ft, but to use it, you need more like 100 sq ft, and even at that, you'd be quite cramped. You need space for the oven, which could actually be bigger than the P&P, and it probably needs it's own environment, or it will make the rest of the space unbearably hot. This could affect the P&P and the stencil printing, too. (Also note, air compressors, unless water-cooled, also throw off a LOT of heat.) The stencil printer might be the least of the space consumers. Finally, you need space to store parts, benches to organize and inspect the work, a station to load and check feeders, and so on. I'd think you could just do it in 1000 sq ft, my shop space is 1400 sq ft but has a metal shop in there, too.Hmm, if you had a double-fold conveyor, you could put the oven behind the printer and P&P, and maybe have a curtain between them to try to isolate the heat. The finished boards would come out behind the printer. If you arranged for the air conditioning return to be over the oven, it might keep the rest of the shop barely comfortable. In that tiny room, you will actually be bothered by the heat radiating off the finished boards!Zig-zg board? Oh, you will be using panels. Your panels will be at LEAST 15 x 21", which is pretty large. You will need a LOT of push-up pins to keep the whole panel from bouncing the parts all over the place. Even my old CSM handles panels, with bad marks to indicate which individual board failed electrical test, so the P&P can skip them.Once you have the solder stencils and programming all worked out, making another batch of boards is a SNAP! An hour or two to set up all the feeders, align the stencil and off you go.Digi-Key is great as they have a lot of stock, but in the volumes you are talking about, going direct to the manufacturers is cheaper. I have a local outfit that carries On-Shore connectors at half the price at Digi-Key. They carry NO stock, so delivery is 2 - 6 weeks, but for HALF the price, it is WORTH it. Those darn connectors really ADD UP!Jon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 08:17:43 pm
content: Once I have the contract and have the SMT line in process I will definitely spend some time looking for cheaper sources. You are right about connectors, going from kinked-pin to SMT connectors makes them 2x as expensive on Digikey. 30 cents per connector, with 6 per board! Unless of course the machine can place through-hole/kinked pin but they do not come in reels...I will need to add ventilation for sure. Yes it will indeed be cramped and uncomfortable but that's ok for now. As soon as a larger space is available I will move the machines. There is one right down the hall that's 1400 sq. ft. that I really hope will be vacated soon!I assume that with proper care there is no harm to moving machines after installation. Just a hassle.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 08:21:31 pm
content: Concrete floor is GOOD! The P&P bounces around like some kind of crazy kids ride, it even bounces a little while on the foot pads! Don't worry about level or finish, the machines should all have big foot pads to level them.I'd turn the new setup the other way, put the oven in back. The printer and P&P are what you will be dealing with the most, might as well have those closest to the table/bench. I prefer a tall bench and work mostly standing, as I never get a chance to sit before running back and forth between stencil printing (manual for me) and the P&P and oven.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 08:51:57 pm
content: Makes sense jmelson, that eliminates the need to move the conveyor or have a retractable conveyor too, easier access. Good idea!

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 08:58:04 pm
content: I have not read all through this thread - but I will quickly throw out a quick opinion based on my own personal opinion of putting together and operating a small line.However much money you think it will cost - it will cost more.You will be short feeders, things will break, there will be a software license, sheared nozzles, fiddly servo driver, etc.However much time you think it will take to get up to speed and setup jobs - it will take longer.The learning curve does not really taper off for a very long time.Not trying to talk you out of this, only to be realistic. I am very happy to have the in-house capability - but cost of entry has been far more than the cash transaction.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 09:16:15 pm
content: I hear you rx8. I'm trying to leave at least $40k in reserve to cover things like that. Now if I got a new machine that might go down to $10k - $20k. Do you think it's smarter to get an old (but apparently reliable) machine or a new machine but with less margin? Also I don't think I'd have access to onsite training with the new Samsung machine as I would with the used Assembleon. NOT having this makes me nervous. For feeders the Assembleon I'm looking comes with several hundred. So if at least 50 work I'll be in good shape.My assumption is that as long as everythingworksthe K&S guys would help me set up and program some parts, one board, I'll be able to speed the process along provided nothing catastrophic happens. I.e. my singular goal is to get this batch of boards finished. Once that's set up there is no big rush. I think I can do this in 2 months. We'll see...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 09:25:54 pm
content: for your scale it seems an expensive route to get a new machine - a bit like buying a new car, which depreciates rapidly as soon as you drive it home. Unfortunately unlike cars you're not going to find a 6 month old ex-demo at a knock-down price.If a company is offering a service package on older models at a sensible price it means they have a fair idea of its likely reliability.Some valid points about the heat from the oven - this probably varies a bit between models - just looked at a random Heller spec an it says 7.5-9.5kw continuous. All of this will be coming out of either the extraction duct or the top/sides. You're certainly going to want some decent ventilation.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 09:26:32 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on July 20, 2017, 08:58:04 pmWell, these high-end professional machines are quite well built. I've been running my (used) Philips CSM84 for 10 years, now. The only real thing I've had go bad was a sensor that stops the conveyor when the finished board is at the end of the conveyor. I got a replacement for ~ $60 or something at PLC center. I have had to get replacement filters for the vacuum generators, there are guys in China making spares for these machines. Cost more to ship them than for the parts. Now, I caused myself some trouble by tinkering with a speed controller on the nozzle lift, and not realizing I had to retime the software, so it caused some crashes where the XY motion started before the nozzle and feeder plungers were clear. I had to make replacement parts for the air pistons. I hacked in an additional sensor to keep the machine paused until the nozzle was fully up.Now, I'm not doing the level of production that Mr. Feingold is talking about, here, but this should give some idea. I've done over 1000 boards on my machine, and many have several hundred components each. I started off with about 50 assorted feeders, and managed to trade some extra stuff I got with the machine for some 12 and 16mm feeders. I made a waffle tray holder to go on the rear feeder rail. That pretty much has me happy for doing all the boards I make.As for setting up, I took the placement file from my cad/cam system and hand edited it into the format required, and was in full-scale production in less than 2 weeks. Realize, I had never even SEEN a P&P machine in real life up to that time!Yes, I have learned a lot since. I've learned the tricks of reducing stencil apertures to get the right amount of paste to make reliable joints without bridges. I've learned how to select what part goes in what feeder slot to optimize machine motion. (Obvious hint, the most frequently-used parts should be closest to the board where the machine fixtures it.) I've learned the right reflow profile for various boards (I do some tin-lead and mostly lead-free). I now know to pre-bake any boards that have sat around for a few months before assembling them. I've discovered that certain feeders don't work right with CERTAIN parts, and have marked them.So, I have learned a lot, and figured out how to be more productive with the setup. I do a wide mix, I have at least 15 different boards I do, and so I change over the setup quite often.Jon

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 09:40:09 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 20, 2017, 09:16:15 pmJust to reiterate - I don't want to make any attempt at talking you out of this idea. My very old machine is quite reliable overall. I did a ton of repairs up front which is why it was a low-cost to start. A fixer-upper. That part of it is not much of a problem.I was more generically referring to the process as a whole. The first year was a LOT of learning and fiddling with various things. After the first year, I started doing more variety which required more feeders. Then, to address the higher mix/volume I needed to work out a more suitable work flow - which is not trivial. So, 18 months in I am finally comfortable with the setup, but still shocked and somewhat disappointed at the overall effort that goes into PCB assembly. Keep in mind that outsourcing itself is no picnic either and generally scares me that something bad will happen and I don't learn about it until the boards are delivered with backward diodes.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 09:44:39 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 20, 2017, 09:16:15 pmHmmm, that is so hard to answer! I do have an older machine, but the CSM84 was built like a TANK! The nozzles are just tool steel tubes with a partial slot milled with a ball-end mill down the side, this is how the keying ball keeps the nozzle from rotating, and also retains the nozzle in the holder. So totally SIMPLE and nearly foolproof. (Well, it is a little fiddly to put the nozzle back in.) I look at some of the nozzles on other machines and think "Man, that is so FRAGILE looking, one wrongly placed part and SNAP!" Just like that, the whole CSM84 machine is very BASIC, simple and robust. So, you would do well to look at the construction and the robustness of the basic machine as well as the consumables. Gecko Drives makes stepper drives and related gear in California, and I think he had a Mydata. I forget, but he called it "Matilda" so that's why I'm thinking it was a Mydata. Anyway, at least once a month, maybe more often, the control program would go haywire and the machine would fly off and crash in the middle of a job, sometimes doing minor damage. The panel would have to be wiped off and started over. This drove the owner nuts! He eventually had to replace the machine. Apparently, although the maker would not acknowledge it, it was a frequent problem.QuoteI'd be WAY more nervous about parts availability than the training issue. I learned my machine completely out of the manuals, with maybe the slightest bit of help online. If the manuals I have are good enough, I suspect that the later ones may even be better.Anyway, before making any moves, I'd certainly talk to somebody that USES the prospective models, and get their take. Does it break or just use up consumables? Does it take a lot of maintenance, or just keep chugging along, week after week? Does the calibration drift over time, or do you just totally ignore that? Has the software ever crashed, and how bad is it to recover?I have to say, my CSM84 has been totally astounding. It sits in a musty basment, and when I turn it on it comes to life and just starts placing parts. Other than the issue I caused that I mentioned earlier, and a variety of operator/programming errors like calling for the wrong nozzle to pick up a part it can't reach, I've never had a real problem in 10 years! Maybe I'm just insanely lucky, and I know I am not using this machine at the normal duty cycle, but it seems to be a really good machine.Quote2 months to SET UP, or 2 months to assemble the 1000 board? I'm guessing you mean just to set it all up.Jon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 10:06:29 pm
content: 2 months for both, but it maybe could be pushed to 3 although I'd prefer not.As for the spare parts, the same center that does training also does service, they have a warehouse full of spare parts and say they can get anything they don't have. There's ALSO a Yamaha service center about 30 minutes away. They basically built these machines and can also support them with parts. So essentially in the case of Assembleon MG-8 I have 2 service centers within a 30 minute drive. With the Samsung, it's new, probably more capable and probably more modern software (though not necessarily better but I have no idea, haven't used both. But if I get stuck - who do I call?The issue finding folks to talk to is that the ones I'm talking to who own the machine are also the ones selling it! In one case it is running active production on a line but they are upgrading their equipment. So at least I know it works. I am told the maintenance is pretty minimal, the service techs do 1-2 calibrations and head rebuilds a year as preventative maintenance - it's included in the service contract. But at least the machine is working and actively maintained.On a related note, how do you all do your stencil apertures? I typically follow the component manufacturers stencil pattern if they provide one, but otherwise I now add a -0.025mm stencil aperture reduction on all fine pitch/small passive pads, and round all pad corners but 5% - 20% depending on the size of the pad, lower % on larger pads to get similar radii. For exposed pads I typically use a "window frame" type pattern with rounded corners and ~70% paste coverage.EDIT: The real concern with the used vs. new is the cost of ownership after a year. What are the hidden costs I haven't considered? That sort of thing. Is it cheaper over a year to buy a new machine at a premium of 20%, or to buy a used machine that is guaranteed to work on delivery and has easily available service? I think this is just one of those things that's impossible to know. If I had just another $50k to spend it would be an easy decision but that's not the case. Maybe less money spent is better as it gives me room to add automation (magazine loaders, etc...) and accessories/unexpected costs.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 10:37:23 pm
content: A quick machine update, right now I have 2 options:Buy a new Samsung SM451 for ~$70k. Add feeders (probably $10k - $20k) and shipping to US + whatever is involved with customs. Still waiting on a quote. Purchase a Heller 1707EXL oven and MPM Accuflex stencil printer separately. Total cost:~$121k - $131kincluding assumed $5k cost for overseas shipping + stencil printer shipping. Leaves me with $19k - $29k for additional equipment and buffer.Get a used Assembleon MG-1 with a few hundred assorted feeders as part of a package that also includes a Heller 1707 EXL Mark III, MPM Accuflex printer w/ 2D inspect. Total cost~$100,000shipped to my door and guaranteed working - although I don't know what "guaranteed" means exactly until it's formalized. Add a service contract and training on the MG-1 for another $9.5k, leaving about $40k for additional equipment, room prep, general cushion.I also need to add some temperature/humidity control, pay for electric service ($1k), purchase a HEPA filter unit ($500-$1500), air compressor ($1k - $2k), dry box (), and run a vent for the reflow oven. I had considered using a filter for the reflow exhaust but after consideration of the comments in this thread, that would be dumping 20+kW of heat into a 500 sq. ft. room. No thank you.On the topic of reflow, I have 2 big questions:1) Are the exhaust fumes from an oven considered hazardous? Does any special care need to be taken? Filtration, etc...2) Will I get anyone in trouble if I use the oven for lead-free products and they sell them into markets that require RoHS/REACH compliance, considering I don't know if the oven has been used for lead? Are you allowed to call a process "lead-free" in an oven that's processed leaded solder? I know for wave solder machines you really can't change them over as you will never clean all of the lead, and lead-free is more corrosive on parts that were intended for lead. But for reflow the only thing that will touch the oven (ideally) is the flux vapor. The lead doesn't go anywhere but on the board.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 11:04:22 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 20, 2017, 10:37:23 pmWell, if the machine and the service contract are from the same people, that should really cover all possibilities. (Not sure if this is the case.) I think you really have to compare consumables, accuracy, programming, reliability, etc. before making a decision. Maybe you can find a Samsung manual online, even if for an older model, just to see how readable they are.QuoteYes, for sure. I suspect you may be able to vent the fumes outside in most places, but you SURE want to get them out of there. I have a little batch oven and just leave the fumes in the shop, but if it were a big conveyor oven, you'd get sick very soon.2) Will I get anyone in trouble if I use the oven for lead-free products and they sell them into markets that require RoHS/REACH compliance, considering I don't know if the oven has been used for lead?I hear these scare stories all the time. "If there is even ONE microgram of lead in your factory, the whole building will have to be knocked down, and all your stock and machinery will have to go in a hazmat dump!" I think it is crazy. Yes, you need to take some actions to prevent strict no-lead product from being contaminated by leaded production. Any paste that goes through the oven will be melted, so no little paste specks to worry about. Cleaning the printer, paste tools and stencils/frames might be the biggest challenge. Contamination without your knowledge could happen real easily there.QuoteYes, that is what I've been thinking. Of course, one of the problems with lead is you can't SEE it. So, if stuff IS getting contaminated, you would have a hard time telling, without one of the expensive x-ray backscatter devices.Oh, one other thing, dealing with paste is pretty messy! I notice your sketch didn't have a sink! The people in the building may not want to share a bathroom with you when you come in covered in paste, even if it IS lead-free!Jon

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 11:09:15 pm
content: Make sure the oven can handle the non leaded reflow profile, temp has to be higher than with leaded paste.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 01:45:32 am
content: The oven is a Heller 1707EXL MKIII which has a max standard temp of 350C so it shouldn't be an issue.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 02:09:29 am
content: 2 months from dead start to 1000 boards completed? OK, now I know you are nuts! Maybe an experienced guy could pull this off, setting up a new shop and cranking out boards. Let's list the issues:1. getting machines in, powered, air supply, air conditioning MUCH greater than needed for office space, vent duct, etc.2. getting software to talk to P&P machine, format required files from CAD/CAM data, etc.3. Programming vision system for actual components you will use. Some will come straight out of library, some mayneed special attention.4. Setting up stencil printer to get proper registration and print with the pastes and stencils you will be using.5. Dealing with errors on the P&P, fiddling with the feeders to get good pick-up, getting the vision system to be able todetect the leads on all the parts without rejects.6. Getting the oven set up to reflow everything without tombstones, bridges or head in pillow defects. With good,clean boards and high quality solder paste, this ought to be a non-problem. But, if it IS a problem, it will drive youto distraction. I've been down this road, and it is littered with carcasses. I even spent $170 to import some SAC305from England on a recommendation. it was GOOD paste, but just too much hassle and expense. I'm still lookingfor the "best" paste, but the stuff I'm using now is just OK.OK, so, assume that everything you need is in place the first day (Ha ha ha!) and that it all fires up and works properly.You will still be fiddling with learning the machines, the software, setting up the paste printer, and the oven profile for quite some days. I can't BELIEVE you can get there in less than 2 weeks. So, that leaves 6 weeks for production.Assuming 5-day weeks, that is 30 days. Now, assuming your 9-up panels actually will fit in the P&P and the oven, 1000 boards is 111 panels. Assuming each panel takes 20 minutes to place (I think you mentioned, but I can't find the estimated time) that gives you 24 panels per 8-hour day. Well, it would only take about a week to run these.Of course, after that week, you will need a 3 month vacation before even wanting to look at your machines again!I can't IMAGINE the horror of running a batch like that! Now, with all those automated SMEMA conveyors totally automating the process, it should seem like just sitting back and watching the robots do all your work, but PLEASE, talk to somebody who actually RUNS a line. I'm sure my setup is total crap, but if you have even 1/10th of the feeder issues I have, with a multi-nozzle high-speed machine, I think you will be pretty busy fiddling with things. (Remember, every time you open the guards to fiddle with a feeder, the machine stops.)The 0805 resistors just go wit the rarest attention, but some parts just slowly drive me nuts. Oh, also note that many machines have big problems with round-top parts like MELF diodes and domed LEDs. So, I have had to find what works and what doesn't on my machine. 0603 flat-top LEDs are just too small on top, so I had to go up to 0805 LEDs. Way too many mispicks on the 0603 LEDs, even after careful alignment of the feeders.As for stencils, I have kept notes of what worked and what didn't. For 0805 and up, nothing matters, but excess paste makes little beads around the pads after reflow. As the IC lead pitch gets smaller, the aperture size needs to be reduced more an more to avoid bridges. If you are going to do leadless, CSP and such, then the solder amount is insanely critical, or bridges will be all over the place. The chip sucks down and spreads the paste. I did that once, and it was AWFUL. I ended up redesigning the board to not use that CSP part.Jon

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 02:10:02 am
content: Pretty much any oven that is not totally ancient can get over 300C.Sent from my horrible mobile....

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 02:36:21 am
content: QuoteProbably! But, I am committed and I have no choice but to make it work Even if it takes 3 months that's not the end of the world. But yes it will be a crazy amount of work. All I know is if I lose the drive and chicken out I will regret it forever.The ducting and power should be in place before the machines arrive. I should be getting a dedicated 100-200A 3-phase breaker. Air conditioning, well yes that may be a challenge. It's solvable.Getting the printer to run is what I am most worried about. I am putting faith in the guys at K&S that they can train me well in a week, and I think with the training I can manually program the board in another week even without the proper CAD format conversion tools.Thankfully none of the parts on this board are too challenging. All standard components, no passives smaller than 0603. There is that 8-WSON 3x3mm buck converter. Aside from that and the PCB assembly that will be installed by the PnP, all should be standard footprints.Don't forget the through-hole PSU assembly that I will need to hand solder.I am confident I can install a panel's worth in <5 minutes however. To date I have never had an obvious defect just doing hand stenciling, hand assembly, and toaster reflow. Even with lead-free BGA. Knock on wood...I know it's different when you're running thousands of boards but I hope that at least that means my stencil apertures are decent. I've had tombstoning issues doing lead-free but only with 0201s on a particular board. Probably due to the hand-stenciling and placement more than the oven. I have even done wafer-level and microBGA by hand successfully, and I have to imagine that the resultsshouldbe more consistent with a proper reflow oven but as you say profiling may be a challenge.Don't get me wrong I am not brushing off these issues. I'm expecting many issues to pop up but I have to believe I will solve them in time.For the panels, with a 9 array panel that's about 650 components per panel. With a somewhat conservative placement rate of 5k that comes out to ~8 minutes per panel to place.A lot of these questions and issues I simply won't properly understand or have answers to until I do it, but I feel ready for it. I know that sounds like hopeless naivety to many of you and I'm 100% sure I would say the same. Nevertheless I am excited for the challenge.Speaking of naivety, what exactly is involved in setting up a stencil? Aside from software. As far as registration I would think that if the stencil works properly and can recognize fiducials on the board and stencil, alignment *should* be taken care of. That leaves paste selection, print angle/speed, aperture design, and stencil quality.Hey if you really want a laugh, here is the "loading dock" that will need to be used...http://imgur.com/a/2hjc2Once inside the hallway is concrete floor, ~12 feet wide. Old industrial machine shop used for heavy machinery. Will be a game of tetris all the same...

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 02:57:33 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 20, 2017, 10:37:23 pmIt is a lot less than 20kW. Once heated the power is not constantly on. Nevertheless, you do need the vent.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 03:20:17 am
content: An AC unit that can remove ~10kW of heat and an industrial dehumidifer will cost about $5k. This is preliminary search, I can probably find something cheaper. Just getting an idea of the costs...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 07:39:14 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 21, 2017, 02:09:29 amIf you are getting a machine with support and training,andare not trying to do anything else at the same time,andyou don't have a problem with late nights and/or weekends I don't think it's craziliy unrealistic.Just allow for plenty of spare PCBs and parts to get things up & running.But definitely try to talk to people who are running lines, even if you have to pay for their time/buy lunch etc.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 07:47:08 am
content: What Mike said.I sacrificed more than a few nights, weekends, parts, PCB as well as dispatched a stream of profanity that would offend a navy sailor.Then, it all worked.Sent from my horrible mobile....

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 08:12:31 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on July 21, 2017, 07:47:08 amOh yes, that.... a LOT of that...

author: mairo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 10:04:52 am
content: Have you also considered space and funds for good rework station if you do not have already one - and by good I mean one that have the right tools for these particular boards so that for example if you have to replace the TQFP part on 100 boards you can do that quickly and accurately without "...dispatched a stream of profanity that would offend a navy sailor...''Did you said that you will be doing the THD connectors manually? Maybe something likethis jigwill help,or some kind of solder pot ..

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 05:02:08 pm
content: The through-hole connectors will probably be replaced with SMT, however the SMT parts are 2x the cost. The through-hole connectors can be placed with the MG-8 machine, which would require a PiP method. However...they only come in bulk so a custom tray would need to be made, loaded, and programmed. If the through-hole parts can be used then we save ~$4,500 on connectors. Worth the effort? I'm not sure...will need to get a quote direct from JST before a decision happens.There is also a secondary board that is very simple, 2"x4" with only a single connector and 2x rotary switches. No other parts. Problem is the rotary switches are not reflow safe so will either need to be soldered with a desktop wave machine (if one exists that's not trash) or manually with a soldering iron. 10k switches by hand...woof...but I can do it in a couple weeks or hire a few EE friends to briefly help for beer money. If I did them manually I would pick up a JBC solder feed station. For the PSU (also not reflow safe I believe) it would need to be done by hand. 4 pins per PSU, but they are large and connected to planes. I am considering the JBC heavy duty station (250W) to make this quick. My Weller WD1 does OK with a large tip but it will add a lot of time to the whole lot.In terms of other equipment I have a pretty comprehensive setup for the kinds of things I would encounter. Tons of good tools, proper optical stereo microscope, ESD bench, hot air, flux, solvents, solder of all types, etc... I've been hand-assembling 0402, 0201, wafer/chip-scale, BGA, etc... up to now. Manual rework isn't a problem. The point is just to do less of it.Now if by good rework station you mean a proper station with IC lifters, pre-heater, etc... I have a little work to do on that. But those things can be found cheap.And don't worry I'm sure there will be many streams of profanity all the same!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 09:02:38 pm
content: Think very very carefully before replacing any through hole connectors with SMD ones. The majority of SMD connectors are so damned fragile, once the mating parts are inserted, that they are huge liability.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 09:03:03 pm
content: We are doing dip soldering with a large Chinese solder pot (5 x 7"). After reflow of the SMT parts (100+ per board) we mask some holes that need to stay open, flux the board, put in the 40 through hole parts and dip it in the pot for 10 seconds. We pre-heat the board on a hot plate first. I've gotten this process down pretty well. I'd like to find a gadget to spray flux on the bottom of the board AFTER the parts are dropped in, thereby fluxing the pins as well as the board. That might help. There are some fuse holders that have to be hand fluxed before dropping in the board or they don't solder at all.Anyway, this actually works, takes up very little space, and the gear can be put away when not needed. So, this is one option for through-hole parts.Jon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 09:06:12 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on July 21, 2017, 09:02:38 pmAgreed, I'd prefer not to, however once assembled they will be sealed in a box and ideally never touched again or exposed to any external stresses. So I think for this application it's not an issue.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 09:08:13 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on July 21, 2017, 09:02:38 pmYes, especially with lead-free, the solder joints can fracture easily, and especially if the connector is going to be mated by the end user more than a few times, it could be trouble.Jon

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 09:10:26 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 21, 2017, 09:06:12 pmWhat about transport? I've seen SMD connectors with a bit of leverage attached to them break off inside the equipment box when they receive a good bump. I guess if everything is supported well this might be mitigated,

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 09:29:12 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 21, 2017, 09:03:03 pmYou can buy liquid no clean flux in gallon containers, so why not use a plastick bin filled with flux and dip the pcb in as a first step let it drip off a bit and then dip it in the solder?That is how they tin copper wires.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 09:53:10 pm
content: All of the connectors are JST PH series, an example of one of themhere.Lowest is 2 pin, highest 6 pin. The SMD versionseen here.I've used these before and they've been reasonable sturdy. There is not much leverage on the connectors, they're small and low profile. Packed well for shipping I don't foresee any issues. If reasonable I'd prefer to use the through-hole version provided the machine can place them and they are safe to reflow. Otherwise, they'll be mated 1-2 times and then installed in the product. I already have to manually solder 20,000 through hole power supply pins and 115,000 through hole switch pins. If I can do each of those switch boards in 20 seconds that's 27 full hours of soldering. So, I prefer not to add another 120k pins to that...EDIT: Those SMT connectors are $0.11 each for 6k from JST direct. Pays to shop around! Over the whole assembly run that's over $7k saved on those connectors alone. Enough for a good dry box!

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 10:13:33 pm
content: Do any of you have experience with auto-dipping machines like these from Manncorp:https://www.manncorp.com/wave-soldering-dip-soldering/auto-dip-3530-ts-soldering-system.htmlWhat do you think, trash or useful?If a cycle time of ~1-2 minutes can be achieved with these, that's theoretically the full lot of 5000 switch boards (50 per panel, 100 panels) in just a few hours - assuming I can get the machine to place them. Hell, 5x that is still way less time (and swearing) than manually soldering.The reception to the desktop wave solder machines I've read here tends to be "meh." Not sure if this is better. Can't seem to find details on whether there's a solder pump involved, if not it might be difficult to solder through the constant layer of dross...

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 10:37:07 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 21, 2017, 09:53:10 pm2+10 pins in 20 sec? No way. You are off by a factor of 3-5. Even if you time just soldering when everything is already prepared in front of you and you just need to solder and nothing else, 12 pins in 20 sec is already pushing it. It maybe possible to do it once, but not for hundreds boards in a row. But more importantly you are forgetting time to unpack the connectors, insert them into the board, and just handling the boards - take them out of the box, put them back in the box, take another box etc...

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 10:51:32 pm
content: Yes you are correct. If we say, 15s to pick up a board with pre-placed components and then place it elsewhere after soldering, + 2s per pin, + 5s for various checking and fiddling around, this is ~92 hours of hardcore fast soldering. Oh my.Certainly I will need some sort of small dip/wave machine that will let me do a panel of these at a time...

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 06:40:34 am
content: Hire a student to help out.

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 11:27:14 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 21, 2017, 10:51:32 pmI don't understand why you insist on doing it all by yourselfHire some help

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 07:37:06 pm
content: Quote from: ar__systems on July 22, 2017, 11:27:14 amSpeaking from experience....When I have tackled big and brand new challenges, low-level help has rarely proven to be helpful. Students and others with little practical knowledge need a lot of hand holding and guidance. They have mostly slowed me down. If I am attacking something that I don't have any experience myself, it is not helpful. When the project is mundane like running cables, assembling shelves, etc - sure, but that is a tiny fraction of the challenges that lie ahead. Every few minutes, you have a person asking 'What should I do?' as you are staring at a bunch of stuff that you are clueless about.On the flip side, I have periodically brought in higher-level help. That has its own issues that have to be managed.1. Experienced people do it their way. This is good in the sense that stuff gets done, but when the end product needs to be my own personal knowledge and experience - it is not good.2. Experienced people hide the details of what it really takes. In P&P, I needed to learn the process myself to have a chance at long term success. I needed to know the details of the equipment, software, solder paste, maintenance, etc. If I just had someone do it each time, my costs would be higher and I would be beholden to the schedule of others. I could not justify a full-time person up-front and I wanted to dial in the process to the point where lower-cost help would be able to safely build PCB'sJust getting help is not an easy or straightforward decision. There is a long term benefit to the business owner to actually know the details of how things work. I have done that with all of my businesses and it has allowed me to get the most out of the people I hire down the road. I never have an employee that can pull the wool over my eyes - I know what can and can't be done and how long it should take. I can see wasted time and materials from a mile away - but only because I know the process really well.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 07:42:10 pm
content: @rxpilot: we were talking about the 92 hours of TH component soldering, not about the P&P stuff.TH component soldering can be learned in a day esp when you get an EE student that has soldered before, in China 10 year old kids do it.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 07:45:09 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 22, 2017, 07:42:10 pmAhhhhh...missed the critical details, lol!

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 09:48:13 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on July 22, 2017, 07:45:09 pmAn answer to that might be to find someone who works ( or worked) at an assembly place and wants some evening/weekend/part-time work.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 08:28:49 pm
content: Difficulty delegating is one of my weak points for sure. Maybe it's a Russian thing, I don't trust anyone to do things properly. Having said that I've got a number of friends that are eager to help if they can. I will definitely take advantage of that if needed.As for hiring EEs, if you saw the state of the EE labs at Georgia Tech you might think twice about that. :p Everything from high dollar mixed signal scopes to expensive soldering stations has at least one hole melted into the side. I've yet to meet a EE undergrad that can solder well. Just the one, actually, and he works at NASA now.In all seriousness though I do think I could train someone up on that pretty quickly.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 08:45:39 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 23, 2017, 08:28:49 pmI have had TERRIBLE experiences with degreed engineers trying to solder. There was a summer about 5 years ago we hired 4 EE students about a year from graduation - I was dumbfounded how awful they were. The worst part was that if you asked them about it - it was never their fault. It was almost always blamed on solder, the iron, the tips, the flux, barometric pressure, etc. Similar story with failed circuit design too - blamed on ESD, bad component batch, bad PCB fab, etc. These were kids that had excellent academic records too but could not actually apply any of that knowledge in a practical way. For those fresh out of school - the degree was used as a license to blame everyone else since they considered themselves the smartest people in the room.So far, the best technician help I have seen are the ones that have had practical experience in an assembly or high-level maintenance role. It is amazing how much money can be burned up in a short period of time with a marginal person soldering. I personally don't want to spend a few days hovering over someone's shoulder to teach them how to solder well - those are the ones that quit a week later and I wasted my time training. Clearly, I have a trust issue as well. I can tolerate mistakes, but I cannot tolerate the lack of desire to do things well. Generally, a lack of desire results in constant simple mistakes.Maybe the next time I hire a bench tech - I will simply give them a range of tasks from wiring to SMD's. The approach they take in the first 10 minutes is enough to know if they are going to be a problem.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 08:51:18 pm
content: Yep no argument there. The thing about hiring friends to do it (assuming it isn't an awkward arrangement) is that the friends I'm considering have zero soldering experience. I much prefer to train someone who comes in with no preconceived (and incorrect) notions of how to do things "right" that can be taught correctly from the ground up.At my last job I had to scold a EE with 20 years of experience, far more than me, about tinning the iron before putting it back. And also about NOT cranking the temperature to 400C every time something would not solder properly. Don't think it stuck. We had just bought a new JBC station after my constant pestering and I wasn't about to let it get trashed.On the other hand we have Southern Poly nearby and that is much more of a "practical" school where I would imagine people actually ARE trained how to solder well. No personal experience however.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 08:55:51 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 23, 2017, 08:51:18 pmAre you saying he should or shouldn't have?

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 08:58:13 pm
content: Should have. Every person that used it put the iron away bone dry, and then the next time I needed to use it I had to spend a couple minutes tinning, cleaning, re-tinning, etc... until the solder would properly wet the tip.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 09:13:52 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 23, 2017, 08:58:13 pmYes of course - just the way you wrote it suggested you were telling him off because he did...Another frequent error I saw when helping out at a soldering class is people clean it on the sponge on the way in to the stand, not the way out. People just think "I just used it, so I'll clean it now"

author: CM800
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 09:26:12 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 23, 2017, 09:13:52 pm"I'm about to go to the toilet, I'll just wash my hands before going to the stool"

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 04:48:27 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on July 23, 2017, 08:45:39 pmA good friend of mine (EE) used to say that they taught you how to analyze a circuit very well, but nobody in his class could even design a flashlight and get it to work. Well, obviously slight exaggeration. Another EE also said about the same thing, they taught circuit analysis, but NOBODY could teach you circuit design. His point, not that they DIDN'T, but it CAN'T be taught. Maybe that is also exaggeration, but I get the point, that creating a circuit from a blank slate is hard, and probably working under a mentor on real world problems is the only way to get good at this.Anyway, yes, I only know a few people who are really good at soldering. One who was truly good was my oldest son. He just had the feel for the flow of the metal, heat conduction, etc. and picked it up very quickly. He produced uniformly good work with minimal supervision after the first day or so, and it looked just like I did it. (And, I had 40+ years of experience at that point.) Unfortunately, he is now a US Marine and married, so I don't get his free labor anymore. Darn!Jon

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 04:52:59 am
content: I couldn't design a circuit until I 'needed' to design a circuit. That is when the theory and analysis started to make sense - when I had an idea for a gadget and the extreme will to get what I wanted.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 05:13:52 am
content: Have to agree. I spent countless hours reading about how this components or that worked, how this theory applied, etc... Until you actually have touseit it isn't going to click.Going through an engineering program lowered my respect for engineers rather than the opposite. I was pretty shocked. So few people I'd trust to actually give a damn about doing things properly for the sake of it, or taking initiative to learn something new. Particularly with all of the resources available, few seemed to really take the initiative. I do know a few people I'd hire in a heartbeat but they already have great jobs.Anyway, yes, I shouldn't be running into too many issues like that yet with this project.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 05:53:36 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 24, 2017, 05:13:52 amDrinking from a fire hose is a reasonable analogy. It sounds like you are emotionally prepared for the unknowns that lie ahead.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 06:45:55 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 23, 2017, 08:58:13 pmOdd. I don't find that necessary with modern tips (Metcal specifically). I usually wipe the tip with either brass or a damp sponge before I turn the iron off, but some say you're not even supposed to do that. The tips stay nice and shiny either way. I'd call it a personal preference, since it doesn't seem to affect tip longevity.I don't use lead-free for prototyping so that might make a difference, I suppose.Edit: Of course, I also yank the magnets out of my Metcal stands so the iron stays hot all the time, so I live in a perpetual state of soldering sin.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 07:08:52 am
content: I'm sure it doesn't always cause problems but in this case it did. This was a brand new JBC station with new tips. I'd say it definitely qualifies as modern. Of course different manufacturers will have different tip metallurgy so it may be more or less of an issue. Solder type and tip temperature will have an impact as well. I've lived by the notion that the tip should always be tinned at all times. Running a tip at 400+ degC and letting it stay hot after cleaning with a brass brush is the worst of both worlds IMHO. I definitely noticed an impact on solder wetting performance after that. It may not affect thelongevityof the tip, but it certainly affected the usability on a day-to-day basis. Every iron in that place was pegged at max temperature, the concept of heat transfer > temperature is still out of reach to many.Of course if a method works then keep using it! This was just my experience.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 07:47:58 am
content: Why would you ever run a tip beyond 350C ?IMO If you do, you need a higher power solder iron or a better solder iron with faster power to thermal transfer.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 07:55:49 am
content: Or maybe a TIG welder......Sent from my horrible mobile....

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 09:14:27 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 24, 2017, 07:08:52 amIt's simple - if the tip is covered in solder when it's sitting for long periods , the surface of the solder oxidises, protecting the tip.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 04:39:59 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 24, 2017, 07:47:58 amWellIwouldn't, but I was around many that did. I even tried locking out the JBC so it wouldn't go above 350C but they'd find ways around it. If you can't get enough heat transfer on to a 1" x 2" board with a 130W JBC iron you're doing something wrong.Anyway, back to the crux of the issue, I spoke with a Yamaha (Trans-Tec) service tech just now about the machines I'm evaluating. He's working on getting me a complete list of options and accessories included with both machines.I have to say that even if I could get a new Samsung machine for the same price (with feeders) I'm not sure I would. It's comforting to know there are two service centers so nearby with an abundance of spare parts, nozzles, feeders, etc...I asked about a few issues I was concerned about, namely software. I did spend some time going over the service manuals and operators manuals for both the Opal Xii and MG-8, which K&S provided on my last visit without a fuss. Definitely takes me back with the old-school XP-style GUI but hey a little nostalgia is a good thing.On the software front, the license is perpetual (no license fees) and if for whatever reason it crashes they'll give you a USB drive with the latest version available. He wasn't sure about whether parts are still manufactured for the Opal (older machine), although for the MG-8 it sounds like they are. In both cases there should be enough spares available to last quite a while.I'm feeling pretty good about the support front. The logistics of getting these machines installed is rather daunting. I'm going through a broker to put together the full package and arrange financing, as the client prefers to spread it out rather than taking a big hit upfront - even if it costs more in the long run.For those of you who have shipped equipment like this, do you have any suggestions? I would like the axes to be locked down as per the service manual. I'd also like a moisture barrier on all equipment, humidity/temperature alert sensors inside the packaging, and shock sensors on each axis of each machine/crate. For machines this size the recommended sensors from ShockWatch are 25g although there are others available down to 5g. The reflow oven is quite long so I think 2 opposing arrangements of 3 sensors each should do it.What else am I forgetting? And how the hell am I going to fit a 13' long 3500lb. reflow oven on a forklift, lengthwise?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 07:12:29 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 24, 2017, 04:39:59 pmSurely you would have local access to Samsung spares in the US. Its after sales service you would lack.I've never personally used the Samsung machines, but they seem to be very popular in Asia. I've seen so many of them while visiting customers.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 08:13:37 pm
content: I agree, but in my position and without experience running these lines I think I should err on the side of having local support.If things turn out well I will be able to get 2 PnP machines, a 2003 Opal XII and a 2007 Assembleon MG-8, along with several hundred assorted feeders, for ~$80k. I'm trying to figure if this is a good deal or not. It seems marginal although if both machines are in excellent condition and the feeders work, I think it's not so bad. Then again a brand new Samsung SM482 is $70k from Korea, but then I'll spend another $20k+ on feeders alone. It is a faster machine although not quite as flexible as the MG-8. Decisions, decisions...it seems to me I should pay the slight premium to get the support access. If it all goes well I'll be in a much better position in the future to evaluate machine purchases.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 09:25:47 pm
content: My personal opinion for how I work is that I would prefer to have more feeders over a newer machine in most cases. I keep adding feeders to my setup so that I can quickly change from one design to the next. I have about 8 boards setup simultaneously right now. The quick changeover is very helpful to me since I don't do huge batches of one setup.Not sure what you are up against there.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 09:31:38 pm
content: My immediate concern is one setup. Even so having 5+ carts loaded with a few hundred feeders would certainly make life easier if I did need to change things out.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 09:58:14 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 24, 2017, 04:39:59 pmYou bet! Having the head or gantry slamming from end to end during shipping will likely cause serious damage, and possibly make the machine unrepairable (bent linear rails, for instance. I've heard horror stories.) Also, with power and air off, the nozzles could droop, so you want the head and gantry tied in an area where there can be no contact.QuoteWow, I think you are overdoing it. The combined tilt/shockwatch sensors are OK. Unless you are shipping these things overseas by cargo container, I think the moisture stuff is not needed. Do make sure it is by ENCLOSED truck, not put on a flatbed with a tarp. You'll probably pay a bit more for that service.QuoteDoes the oven come apart? Seems like there would not be such a problem in making them in two sections that bolt together. I can imagine plenty of facilities where such a long unit could be a huge problem, long hallways with corners, and elevators. That won't fit any freight elevator I've seen in quite a while.One thing I ran into with mine. They didn't lock the nuts on the support feet when they loaded it into the truck. One of the feet in the back unscrewed and bit into the truck's floor. We had a forklift that couldn't get into the truck (no loading dock) and the P&P was against the front wall of the truck box. No way to get back there and wind the foot back up. We ended up using cables to drag the machine out to where we could access the foot, and bent it about 45 degrees. I had to cut it off and fabricate a new foot. All could have been avoided if they just locked the locking nuts on the feet after raising them.Jon

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 10:07:15 pm
content: When I ship CNC machines - I do a sealed moisture controlled bag with a wrap. I also specify an air ride trailer which takes some of the high-frequency vibration out.Linear ways, ball screws, and other precision surfaces can and will flash rust easily. They generally have enough grease on them, but precaution is cheap IMHO. A few years back - HAAS CNC machines started shipping this way after too many cross country trips had some moisture related issue on the other side.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 10:19:39 pm
content: I'm not sure the reflow oven is so easy to take apart...the diagrams seem pretty intimidating.Maybe the moisture barrier is overdoing but that depends on how it's shipped. In any case I'll gladly pay another $1k in plastic wrap and sensors for the peace of mind. I would hate for the machine to incur some sort of damage in shipping that's not obvious until after I signed off on the delivery... For sure I will study the service manuals and make a list of what to inspect once the machines arrive.For the nozzles, I think a piece of foam placed under the heads and zip-tied to the gantry to keep them retracted would do well. Even with the axes locked I wouldn't want the heads extended as they are not really designed to be jostled in X-Y while extended. They may well be fine but again...cheap insurance.Good tip about the feet, I'll mention that. Luckily the Yamaha service tech who just calibrated these machines can be put in touch with the logistics company to give advice on how to ship these.As far as remaining concerns, the Heller reflow oven and MPM stencil printer I really am clueless about. I assume I can find manuals and stuff, the oven itself shouldn't be terribly complicated. Even so I haven't looked into available service nearby. I am just crossing my fingers on these, they will be demonstrated working prior to shipment but then it's on me to get those up and running.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 10:40:01 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 24, 2017, 10:19:39 pmI know NOTHING about stencil printers, except that I am a "manual" printer, i do it by hand. But, I suspect gentle handling is important.Ovens are likely to be fairly tough, but make sure you get all the manuals (or CAN get them from somebody). Again, I know nothing, but have heard scuttlebutt. And, that is that the entire oven is kind of a consumable. You will have heating elements, controllers, and fans fail over time, as well as conveyor parts. It is all pretty simple mechanics and electrical tech. but it is all pretty highly stressed by the temperatures. So, having worked out in advance where to get parts, and where as many parts can be found from McMaster-Carr, PLC Center and such will be a help. You might even want to check with other users and get in some of the most often needed spare parts in advance, to save days of down time when the inevitable happens. Heating elements and SSRs should not be terribly expensive unless the maker went to extremes to make sure you couldn't use commodity parts.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 10:45:54 pm
content: One other area is insurance. I have heard MANY, MANY horror stories of totally disastrous shipping accidents where the machines were badly damaged or destroyed, and the shipper was able to walk away with no liability due to some ridiculous fine print stuff. Like the machine fell off the back of the truck while unloading at the destination, and because it was on the recipient's property, "Not our problem".So, when you are talking about a $100K delivery, you want to make sure the insurance really covers all possible events. I don't know much about this, but as I say, I've heard stories!Jon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 10:47:40 pm
content: Just found out the machines also come with the off-line programming tool as well as a feeder calibration rig. Music to my ears!Anyone here with experience usingone of these?I've read good things about them, one is available here for $1k. Apparently it works but won't save programs. I'm OK with that if it's a good oven, would be great for running small boards or leaded boards that I don't want in the big oven.Now I'm looking for a dip-solder machine, apparently Manncorp no longer offers those models despite being listed on the website. That pretty much just leaves China as far as I know. Not a big issue with that, unless anyone has suggestions.jmelson: I'm pretty adept at reading the fine print, after a few startup experiences. Nobody is touching anything unless the insurance covers it. Once the machines have been safely transported, powered up, and checked out with the approval of a service tech,thenI will sign off.

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 11:08:30 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 18, 2017, 09:13:38 pmSorry for the late reply, but really want to reply to this one.This is my experience as well. We've been assembling in-house for this reason for at least 10 years now.5-6 years ago we had one of those years that we needed to spend some money at the end of the year. Ended up spending $80K for a complete line + dry box from manncorp, which allowed us to switch from 100% through hole to SMD. It's been one of the best purchases I've made. If I was in the market for a second machine, I sure wouldn't count them out (although I would definitely make sure I evaluated the entire market). Like any purchase there are trade-offs, but for the relatively lower tech boards (0.5mm pitch/0402 and larger), this has worked well for us, and the pick and place machine has been remarkably trouble free.As we've slowly increased our volume, I continue to look at outsourcing assembly of some of the products. So far, I haven't been able to find anyone anywhere who can manufacture the volume we do (500-1000pcs) for the cost

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 12:15:15 am
content: Yes, of course I agree with you hence this project.I've always been big on vertically integrating. I think too many industry professionals look at things from their POV and decide in-sourcing is a bad idea. There are many ways to look at it, and for small business it's IMHO not as easy to put in terms of "ROI" as far as pure tangible dollars are concerned. Being able to turn things around quickly, when the cost of mistakes is low, has a huge impact on your operating mindset. You don't have to take 2 weeks to pore over every detail to MAKE SURE everything is perfect (and it still won't be) because each prototype is costing you several thousand dollars + 1-2 weeks. This applies to mechanical things as well as electrical. I recall Apple themselves dropping a few million on some high-dollar CNC equipment to live right next to their design lab in California. There's a reason they did that instead of just out-sourcing. Of course, if I had their resources...I just received a quote for an industrial control board I designed for my day job, from RushPCB. $33k for 100 boards with a 20 day turn. These are not super special RF magic boards...commonplace tech nowadays. About 400 components, mostly passives, nothing smaller than 0402, a single 1mm pitch BGA, a few through-holes, etc... I can get 100x of these PCBs made in China, with superb quality, for <$1k. The BOM cost is ~$100 per board. That comes out to $11,000 for 100 boards. If I could get these boards programmed in a couple of days, I can do the whole run for them within a week, charge 1/4 what they do, and be quite happy with a week's work. Now granted, RushPCB is probably not the cheapest but they aren't the most expensive either. Every new CM I try in the US ends up being equally expensive. Maybe I'm just bad at finding the good + affordable ones.I'm still waiting for that "a-ha" moment where I realize how utterly stupid my plan is but I haven't gotten there yet. The math checks out, all that is left is for me to study and learn this equipment like my life depends on it.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 12:53:52 am
content: Interesting development on the through-hole front...has anyone used a Bismuth containing solder paste such as this:http://alphaassembly.com/Products/Solder-Paste/CVP-520Seems like a great option for through hole. I just read an article in the Printed Circuit Design & Fab magazine about Bismuth solder and how it fell out of favor when leaded solder was commonplace for some reason (I think it was material compatibility with lead) but now is coming back into favor. I'd of course love to do a second pass with this paste but that may be difficult with a populated board, so I'd need to solder all the parts with it.Too risky?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 03:50:49 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 24, 2017, 10:47:40 pm$9000 Crazy! $1000, well, that's a bit high, I have no idea how accurately it controls temperature. I use a big toaster oven from WalMart, with a ramp and soak temperature controller patched in. I poke a micro thermocouple into a through hole in one of the boards. I can do boards up to about a regular US sheet of paper in it, or 6 small boards.QuoteI do it by hand, with a custom kind of tongs that holds the board without touching any of the through hole components either top or bottom. I got a Chinese 5 x 7" solder pot. I use lead free solder in this. I'll bet, if one were to use it for leaded solder, you'd find it much easier to get perfect soldering.QuoteYes, sounds good. But, shipping insurance may not cover oopses on your property. Just something to check.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 03:55:14 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 25, 2017, 12:53:52 amHave you checked the brittleness and fracture strength of these solders? I think this may be a real problem with it.Jon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 04:51:33 am
content: After doing some research it seems that the brittleness is indeed a problem. Probably not an experiment I'd want to undertake at this point.For shipping I'm not anticipating any major oopsies after it's off the truck and on pallet jacks on the ground. However, as long as they're handling the equipment be it truck or forklift, it needs to be their responsibility. Surely this can't be an uncommon request but we'll see.I have a Controleo2 modified toaster reflow oven as well that's worked pretty flawlessly so far. Had some issues on the last batch with rather ugly solder joints and inadequate wetting. I think the cause for this is two-fold: 1) Chip Quik paste seems to work great most of the time but it's been less consistent for me than Kester. 2) One issue with the ControLeo2 is that my oven is relatively large and so takes a little longer to heat up. The Controleo seems to get a little more aggressive on each learning cycle until it just hits the profile but stops there. As a result my reflow cycle times are like 6+ minutes. Just on the edge of acceptability. You can tweak this in the Controleo firmware but I haven't gotten around to it. They're coming out with a new control unit soon which looks pretty badass and has more features, might be able to make these adjustments easily.Not only that but in the new space I can modify the oven to run off of 240 which should add some much-needed oomph.Anyone have stories to share regarding preferred solder paste? I feel OK about ChipQuik, Kester I've had pretty good luck with. I seem to hear unanimous good things about Alpha, and Loctite seems well regarded as well.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 08:06:15 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 25, 2017, 04:51:33 amYes, I have also found the ChipQuik seems to go bad in short order, while some other pastes work OK without refrigeration and other care for a year or more. My last batch of ChipQuik seems to have turned into hard chunks, even after adding some solvents to it, and massive attempts to re-mix it.QuoteI got some lead-free paste from Warton Metals in the UK (VERY expensive to import to the US) and it was wonderful stuff! I have since gotten some lead-free Shen Mao Formosa-brand solder cream that is pretty good. I occasionally have to add a little liquid flux and Butanol to it to keep it working right.At the rate I use solder paste, it eventually turns to crud and I have to replace it. But, I usually can use 80% of the jar before it gets really bad. But, it was more like 50% of the ChipQuik. But, then I do a lot more lead-free work, and rather few with leaded solder.Jon

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 09:13:32 pm
content: Henkel GC10 is supposed to be a very good LF paste with very long life - I think there is a thread here somewhere about it

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 09:25:47 pm
content: IMO If you are running a pro setup you just don't take any risk with the paste beyond its expiry date.The cost of time and components of a couple up to tens of wrong reflowed boards is much higher than a new jar. Not to speak of return failures in the field after months.Amateurs and hobbieists like me can buy the old still sealed containers for old metal price.But guess what, even I buy 250g new jars of pasteWhats $50 ?If the stuff is unusable I melt it around 300C on a fire in a metal pan till all the flux has dissapeared and add the metal to my solderpot.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 09:32:37 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 25, 2017, 09:13:32 pmI just switched to GC10 - AMAZING! I was using one of the Kesters before.Every metric of the GC10 is better - very long stencil life, temp stable, very easy to print fine pitch (type 4 paste), excellent finished joints, very low residue.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 10:30:03 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on July 25, 2017, 09:32:37 pmWho did you buy it from? It is probably just about time to refresh my lead-free paste.Jon

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 10:34:48 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 25, 2017, 04:51:33 amOn our p&P machine, one of the options was a high precision dot dispenser (martin brand). We use this for very low production boards (<100/yr), and for prototypes. We tried lots of different types of pastes and eventually settled on an Indium paste specifically designed for air dispensing, since many others would do bad things in this application. Many pastes are actually non-newtonian fluids and this causes problems when you're "impacting" them with air pressure and trying to get the paste to go through a small needle. I understand others will separate.We originally did 100% dispense for a couple of months, then switched to stencil printing for the higher volume products. Because we were using a indium paste for dispense, we got a chemically compatible paste designed for printing from them in tubs. Have had no problems at all, even well beyond the expiration date of the paste (we keep all but the currently operating tub refrigerated).

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 10:48:54 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 25, 2017, 10:30:03 pmDigiKey -

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 02:43:20 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on July 25, 2017, 10:48:54 pmOK, what threw me off is it shows as being Loctite brand, not Henkel. I guess Loctite is their US distributor.They also show zero stock. $101 for 500 g. But, if it works like a dream, I guess I should just pay the price and enjoy the good soldering performance.Thanks,Jon

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 02:50:24 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 26, 2017, 02:43:20 amLoctite is one of the Henkel brands. Kinda like Scotch or Post-it are 3M brands.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 03:24:43 am
content: Interesting, I'll admit I was biased as it's often cheaper than Kester or Chip Quik. I'll definitely have to pick some up!

author: TJ232
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 04:33:08 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 25, 2017, 09:13:32 pmAnother Henkel GC10 happy user here!

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 05:04:58 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 26, 2017, 03:24:43 amI only recently switched to the GC10, which as you pointed out was a little more expensive than the Kester that I previously used.What I quickly learned is the GC10 is a fraction of the cost, potentially even paying me to use it. The reason I say that is because I have not had a single bad joint with the GC10, I have not had to re-print a single board, I have left it in the stencil for 12 hours, put it in a bag, pulled it out the next day for another 12 hours in the stencil and it still printed and flowed well.The Kester was not even close. Harder to print and more susceptible to bridging creates re-work which almost immediately overshadows the savings on the paste. Being able to leave it out for extended periods while I setup or do other things is very convenient and avoids tossing paste in the trash. I did not expect much difference with the GC10, but it has made a considerable improvement in labor and direct costs.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 05:15:22 am
content: Sounds pretty awesome.I really have to wonder why there is so much variability. Is it all down to the flux? I would think the metallurgy is pretty much identical but who knows, maybe that extra 0.01% purity makes a tangible impact on the result.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 05:40:53 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 26, 2017, 05:15:22 amChemistry is beyond me.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 07:56:44 am
content: The flux should be different because this stuff does not need to refridgerated.For the rest only the size of the balls is a differentiator. Some paste can not pass 0,3mm syringes.I thought that was the difference between stencil paste (bigger balls) and syringe paste (smaller balls)?

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 11:07:28 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 26, 2017, 07:56:44 amEvery paste has varying composition. Only part of it is the ball size and the active materials (i.e. the acids which actually clean the oxides so the solder works). It is true you generally want a smaller ball size for syringe paste.The rest has to do with how it flows and behaves in certain applications. The behaviors one would want when screen printing vs pneumatic dispensing can be widely different - which is why manufacturers sell pastes which are specifically designed for pneumatic dispensing. Occasionally you'll find a paste which works well for both with just a change in the metal load, but usually what works well for syringe dispensing doesn't work so well for screen printing and vice versa.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 02:14:40 pm
content: If I use stencil paste for syringe I have to adjust the pressure and vacuum, temperature of the paste is also important, too warm and it starts oozing.Thinking further the longer lasting paste probably has used less volatile solvents?

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 07:16:07 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 24, 2017, 08:13:37 pmIt sounds like you're pretty set on getting the Assembleon machines - and there's a LOT to be said for having local support, especially when you are totally new to the PnP world. However... various machines differ greatly in how easy they are to set up and change over, both in terms of the time it takes to change a feeder out, or to change a reel from one component to another in an existing feeder, or to change the program in the machine, or to program the machine for a new board. If you are intending to offer assembly services, then the time it takes to set up the machine is going to be one of (if not THE single) biggest time sinks and costs. Over the years, pretty much everyone I've ever talked to that has run these machines has said MyData machines lead the way in how fast they can be set up and switched between jobs.I have no connection to them and don't own one - but I've owned several PnP's over the years and some of them can be a massive PITA to set up or change over the jobs.As for shipping... unless you are paying for an installation service, I would almost guarantee the terms are going to be FOB, so as soon as it leaves the dock of the seller - you have no guarantee from them. The shipping company would only cover obvious physical damage upon arrival, and if you have a rigger unloading it, their insurance would cover things like them dropping the machine or boinking it against a doorway as they move it in. The big concern is always.... you get the machine in position, plug it in, run air to it... turn it on... and... nothing. Or, you get a whole bunch of error messages indicating some non-trivial problem. Unless you've paid for installation service and a turn-key setup (where the seller is providing shipping, move-in, installation, set-up, etc), then you're going to be on your own. Control boards jostle loose in shipping, cables come loose, circuit boards with dodgy connections can fail from the vibration of road trips. But a shipping companies insurance isn't going to cover a machine that was claimed to work when shipped and doesn't when it arrived and was set up.Just an FYI.I am one of the horror stories mentioned above. I bought a couple of *really* cheap chipshooters from a guy in California once. He assembled DDR memory boards for Micron and had 2 new Fuji chipshooters coming and needed the old ones gone right away. He was letting them go for practically free. I had no time to arrange everything and the long and short of it is that when the machines arrived, they had been transported cross-country on an OPEN truck, without even a tarp.. through a couple of rain storms. They had been shoved into a box truck at the sellers end, then dragged out with chains at a terminal, and worse. When they arrived, the sheet metal was bent to hell, there were boxes of parts that had fallen out of the machines shoved inside them, the frames were covered in dents and gouges - just a total mess. I eventually managed to get one machine working from the two... and luckily the parts on the machines were so valuable (motors, vision system parts, sensors) that I parted them out and got about 20 times back what I paid. But the shipping company - who I had a written contract stating they were to be shipped in an enclosed air-ride truck - basically told me "Ok, sue us...". They were in another state. So be careful.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 08:42:41 pm
content: Quote from: forrestc on July 24, 2017, 11:08:30 pmThis is something I want to address too...A PnP machine that can realistically place 10,000cph is quite standard these days. And when I see prices of $0.10/pad for SMD work, even if you assume 2 pads per component, that's $0.20 per placement, or $2,000 per hour. That is an INSANE price point. They're trying to pay off the machine in a couple of 40-hour shifts (including generous set-up time). For something like a CNC machine, an extremely (extremely!) lucrative job would have the machine paid off within perhaps 6 months, but a more realistic timeline is 2-3 years. For a PnP machine that costs $250k new and can achieve a realistic 10,000cph throughput, if the machine can be running 75% of the time (assuming 25% set-up and idle time), then on a 2,000 hour year (which assumes a standard 40-hour work week and 2 weeks off, which for a machine would be downtime/maintenance/repair time), that would be 1,500 hours of placing time per year. To pay the machine off within a year, that's $166/hr, or 1.6 cents per component placement.The prices I have seen are more like 5 to 10 cents per SMD *pad*, and the average # of pads per component necessarily has to be higher than 2, probably even above 3. So these US-based outfits are looking for a princely sum to run their PnP machines.Which makes me think they either have massive overhead. Or they just are not getting a lot of work and are trying to spread the costs over a small number of customers. Or they maybe have a few established clients for whom costs don't really matter.When you consider the cost of a $20k to $75k used PnP machine, the cost equation gets even more unfavorable for the assembly houses. Some folks may think that they are offering a level of quality control for your money that you don't get by bringing the work in-house, but my experience has generally been the opposite.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 09:02:24 pm
content: Great points about the shipping. I'm not really sure what else to do though. I'm being as attentive as I can to shipping with moisture bagging, skidding, shock mounting, sensors for climate/shock/etc... That and finding a good rigging company in Atlanta. Got a recommendation from a friend that works with heavyequipment and I'm meeting with them on location Monday.As long as they are shipped the way they say they will be and unloaded gently, I don't foresee anything catastrophic happening. If something does break well...that's why we left a healthy buffer in the budget for emergencies.Assembleon recommended to use the shock absorbing feet for the machine during transit, 2 machines so 8 feet total. Only they want $500 for each one. What...it's a metal plate with 2 rubber cylinders bolted to it. Nuts. I could take care of that easily if I had physical access to the machines. We'll see, the seller may have the mounts from prior shipping.I agree on the insane pricing. This is the experience of many, many startups.I looked at MyData but I've heard about a lot of issues with those as well, whereas the Assembleons seem to be workhorses. As for setup time, I have no idea. I read through the Assembleon operators manual and it seems reasonable. These machinesdon'thave the optional RFID reader for the feeders, which sounded super handy. That's a shame but I don't know if it's worth delaying another 1-2 weeks to find another machine that does. And even if we do, it isn't going to come with 500+ feeders, offline programming tool, feeder calibration tools, etc...Also throwing in a CR Tech RTI 6250 AOI system, which probably isn't worth much but it's basically free. May be fun to play with.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 09:36:50 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 27, 2017, 09:02:24 pmRFID for the FEEDER? What the heck does that accomplish? You can still load the wrong reel of parts into the feeder, and still make a run of boards that need to be reworked.Well, as I mentioned before, I whipped up a really rough program that created the placement file from the CA/CAM software's placement file in a couple days. Now, when I do a new board, it is a matter of assigning feeder locations for each part and running the program. It takes about 30 minutes, tops to do that, even for a complex board. Setting up different feeder setup (I do not have carts for my machine) is a bit of an issue, but rarely more than one hour. The vision system may be more complicated, but once you have created the vision library, you just call out each vision template for specific parts, and only have to do anything special when a new footprint is used for the first time. You also have to set the conveyor rails and the push-in and push-up pins, that takes 5 minutes, max.For panels, you need to know the offset between board instances and the location of the bad marks.So, the total changeover for a first time run of a board is maybe 2-3 hours, including the CAD/CAM prep. To changeover to re-run a board you have already set up, it is rarely more than an hour.Sometimes it takes me longer to order the parts online than to do the actual setup on the machine!Jon

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 09:49:41 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 27, 2017, 09:36:50 pmBut once you know the right parts are there, you can swap feeders around for different jobs easily, assuming you have enough feeders that you don't have to unload them to free them up for new jobs.Larger operations can also automate some of the process, e.g. by scanning a barcode on the reel at a loading station that also reads the RFID tag.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 10:41:11 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 27, 2017, 09:49:41 pmHmmm, well, I just don't have enough feeders to do anything like that. AND, I wouldn't have a place to STORE all those feeders if I DID have them. Maybe in some huge contract assembly shop with a bunch of guys keeping several lines running 24/7 this could be a big deal. But, in a smaller shop, just being careful and double-checking each time you put a reel on a feeder or a feeder on the machine will prevent any mishaps.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 10:46:58 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 27, 2017, 09:02:24 pmIs this for paste inspection or parts inspection post reflow? I can see a paste inspection system, I find defects when I stencil print my boards, and it would be a lot worse with a big panel.With a P&P, wrong parts is pretty unlikely. I occasionally find a part that went on sideways, but it is pretty rare. I think I've now had my 3rd tombstone after making over 1000 boards. So, that is rather a rarity. If the AOI can pick up soldering defects, that would be good, but just to locate wrong parts, I think that you'd turn the thing off after the first couple days of it never finding anything.Jon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 12:18:59 am
content: Supposedly it can find solder defects, tombstones, etc...http://www.firstplacemachinery.com/firstplace_CRTechnology_RTI6520.htmlStill looking for a datasheet. This is a little bigger than I expected it to be...not sure where I'm going to put the thing. Maybe I can part it out to some interested engineers nearby, if nothing else.For the RFID readers, yes it's not strictly necessary...would be a cool feature. Getting several hundred feeders so I shouldn't be running out for a while...if I can just figure out where to put them.

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 01:55:37 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 27, 2017, 08:42:41 pmBall-park local pricing in China in volume is 0.0015USD per pad. So yes those prices you've been getting quoted are insane, by two orders of magnitude! Of course you have to add on setup and testing fees on top of that but still...Of course the local Chinese pricing is not accessible directly for someone from the US (you need people on the ground to handle the day-to-day communications) but you should be able to find something in the middle.I believe a big reason why the US-based (and also Europe-based) outfits tend to be so expensive is because they have been pushed into the very high-end market by market forces. If you need a big volume of cheap boards you know where to go. So what I've seen from the UK operators I've dealt with for example is a very high expectation of "get it right first time" and the additional communications and setup costs that go with that. Together with various certifications and other practices expected from high-end (military and medical) customers that can afford to pay their prices.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 02:39:01 am
content: The problem is that so far, in my experience, they DON'T get it right the first time. In the time it took for Advanced Circuits to assemble ~200 boards for a client - which were thenshippedwith a missing part (which was both on the BOM and ordered), I could have assembled them all by hand. And AC is NOT cheap.If you're a startup or small business, you are kind of screwed unless you're very adept at navigating all this. $0.0015/per pad might apply for high volume but I've never seen anything remotely near that for low-moderate volumes (few hundred to several thousand). Even in China. Those quantities are not high enough to get real volume benefits (you're just starting to get there) nor are they low enough to do in-house easily.While I grant that $0.01/per pad might be crazy compared to the lowest cost Chinese PCBA for an order of 500k, don't you think that would be attractive to a lot of small businesses in the US?

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 07:22:37 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 27, 2017, 09:02:24 pmI didn't mean to suggest you were doing anything wrong on shipping - just that some of your comments such as "I won't sign off on anything until the machine is on my floor and I verify it works" (paraphrasing) are unrealistic, IMO. The seller's responsibility will end when it leaves their dock, the shipper's will only be for damage in transit, and the rigger too. As long as you know the machine is good as-sold and arrives in good physical, I wouldn't worry too much. It's common to have issues and mostly they are due to cables that have jostled loose or driver boards that have worked loose from back plane connectors.As for protecting the machines, $500 per vibration isolation foot is utter robbery, and I would be hard pressed not to be downright angry at someone quoting me that price! Go to McMaster.com and look up vibration damping pads, vibration control levelers, and adjustable air springs. The last of those can get expensive, especially from McMaster but if you look up Enidine Air Springs on eBay, you can get them cheaper. The anti-vibration feet are more for when you get the machine in your shop, not for transport. Air springs are the ones you want for transport. You could also buy a pallet or make a skid with the air springs and vibration damping mat pre-attached to it, and ship that out to the seller - wouldn't cost too much, and just have them load the machines on that and strap them down. Then you will have peace of mind. And for the kind of $$ you're talking about, it may be worth a plane trip out there to see the machines in-person and be there while they are prepped for shipment.On the machine itself... are you buying direct from the seller? or is this ground through a broker or is it being re-sold through the Assembleon service folks that are going to support you with the training? I am not sure if or how much you haggled on the price of the machine, but I've bought and sold quite a few machines and my experience is there's usually a 10-20% increase in what they're asking vs what they will take. That's especially true for PnP's IMO. They may seem sort of hard to find from a buyer standpoint, but just imagine it from the seller standpoint. It's exceedingly difficult to find someone willing to shell out tens of thousands for a used machine, that's especially true for private sellers.500 feeders will be nice... the only thing you can really count on is that there's no way to know all the "what ifs?" until you take the plunge and go through the trial by fire. So I wouldn't worry TOO much about buying the absolutely perfect machine. Until you have some experience under your belt, you won't know what things matter to you a lot (and not at all) in a PnP and in an assembly line. You'll know that next time around... so this machine will hopefully get you going and if it takes your business to Phase 2, you'll be well informed then to buy the perfect machine.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 08:29:03 am
content: Quote from: janekm on July 28, 2017, 01:55:37 amAt what sort of volume ?I've never understood the reasoning for "per pad" pricing - it takes no more time to place an 8-pin resistor network than a single resistor

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 11:49:58 am
content: Placing large pad count components is slower due to the part mass?

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 02:25:26 pm
content: Corporate666: I have spoken directly with the seller but we're doing it through a broker, they're getting all the equipment together for us under one package so that we can finance more easily. Visiting the equipment on rigging day is not such a bad idea.I'm a little concerned about the price I was given for those foot bumpers...of course there's no way I'm paying that but I hope it's not indicative of the rest of their spare part costs. Luckily my father moves heavy equipment (microscopes) from time to time and may have a bunch of those auto-leveling air supports I can borrow.The PnP package is: ~85k-90k, still working it out. That includes:~600 feedersAssembleon MG-8 (2007)Assembleon Opal Xii (2004)All this stuff "for free:"Off-line programming/teaching toolFeeder calibration toolA couple of tray feedersUltrasonic cleanerUltrasonic vapor degreaserA bunch of carts/racksCR Tech RTI 6250 AOISeems like a decent package if it all works, but it's definitely getting into serious money for us.This is also not including the rigging/bagging/shipping which will probably be another $3-4k per machine. What's a reasonable amount to pay for moisture-barrier bagging?

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 04:16:11 pm
content: Exactly what the feeder calibration tool does?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 04:28:54 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 28, 2017, 08:29:03 amMe neither.....I don't take outside work, but intuitively, I would charge by part placement and break that down into 2 categories - precision and non-precision. The precision parts are anything that needs up facing vision alignment and non-precision covers all other parts that can be aligned on the fly.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 05:39:30 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 28, 2017, 02:25:26 pmI haven't paid a specific extra charge for moisture bagging, so I can't tell you the upcharge on that. I would say, if at all possible, definitely go there for the prep of the machines for loading. Just consider what will happen if the machines arrive and are damaged. For the sake of $500 (round trip flight + hotel room + Lyft rides), it's a tiny price to pay to protect your $90k investment. The shipper will have nowhere near the incentive you have to make sure the machines are well prepared for shipment. $3-4k per machine isn't unreasonable from door-to-door. I usually pay $1k to get a CNC machine unloaded from a truck and placed in my shop... those guys have heavy equipment and expensive insurance and have to haul their stuff to every job, although the price for the second machine should be fractionally more than for the first one.If you're concerned about parts costs - call up Assembleon and ask for a price quote for a nozzle or something. Or ask the seller to give you a list of what parts have been replaced on the machines in the past couple of years. Have you called the local (to the seller) Assembleon service center and asked about the specific machines? They surely must know them and should be able to provide you with a service history or something. And since you and the seller are in contact... hopefully you're keeping the broker's fees reasonable... hope he/she isn't pocketing too much on the deal. Financing is dead simple... I have a few folks I've worked with if you want some contacts, financing up to $250k is basically just a personal credit check and a FICO of 700+ away.RE: all the "free stuff" that goes with the machine, it's certainly good to get that stuff, although I remember when I sold my Fuji machine I "gave" all that stuff to the buyer as well. He was so happy. I am overly honest and I told him all this stuff was largely specific to that machine/line and useless to anyone else. It took up a lot of space and if he didn't want it, then it was going in the dumpster or on the curb with a 'free scrap metal' listing shortly thereafter

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 06:43:28 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 28, 2017, 11:49:58 amNo, it may be that small passives are placed blind, but anything with more than 2 leads has to use vision, and that slows the machine down. Or, maybe the larger parts have more mis-picks or something.Possibly, this is an added factor for manual programming. But, I can't imagine many people manually program a P&P. I have never done it, even my VERY FIRST board was programmed from the CAD/CAM data.Jon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 06:44:20 pm
content: If I have to throw it away then no big loss, provided it's actually being thrown in without an upcharge. The AOI I can bring to work and let the engineers tear it down, lots of cool stuff in there they'd be interested in.And yes you're absolutely right. My advice to people doing their first production run in Shenzhen is always "Why aren't you already on a plane to Shenzhen?" Stands to reason the same advice applies here.The service tech that serviced these machines is actually 30 minutes from me (Yamaha). He flies up to Ontario to service them. According to him there's been nothing untoward aside from regular maintenance intervals, mostly head re-builds to replace/lube o-rings and seals as preventative care.As I mentioned there are actually two service centers 30 minutes away from me. One is K&S (Assembleon) and the other is Trans-Tec (Yamaha). Both can service this machine since they were both made by Yamaha and sold by them under one name and by Assembleon under another.My assumption, with the term "dedicated air-ride truck," is that equipment is loaded on the truck at the seller, and it does not leave the truck until it arrives at my location in Atlanta. I.e. it's not going through any terminals, warehouses, etc... Strictly point A to point B. Is that a safe assumption or no?

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 06:47:27 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 28, 2017, 11:49:58 amCould be a simplified way to pass reel handling/labor costs to the customer. Stands to reason that more pads means either more BOM items (requires additional feeders or even an additional machine for the overflow) or higher pin counts (can fit fewer parts per reel). A reel might be able to hold 60k resistors but only 2k QFN packages. Or a JEDEC tray for large pin count parts which may only hold 50 parts. More labor involved.That's what makes sense to me anyway, doesn't necessarily mean it's the real reason.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 06:49:32 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 28, 2017, 02:25:26 pmHmmm, my suggestion is you select the 100-150 best feeders, taking plenty of the larger size ones (12, 16, 24mm) and then sell the rest. From earlier discussion, you are not going to have room for them, unless there is some other storage area available. Having a fair number of feeders here (Just barely enough, actually, for our most complex board) I can't IMAGINE what dealing with 600 feeders will be like. It will DEFINITELY fill your entire 500 sq. ft. room. They are also fairly fragile, so you can't stack them to the ceiling.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 06:57:01 pm
content: Quote from: ar__systems on July 28, 2017, 04:16:11 pmThe feeder pick-up locations are generally pre-programmed into the machine. It can be taught the pick-up location for one specific feeder on the rail, and then all other feeders are computed from that one.So, if you work that way, each feeder should bring the part to the same location, relative to the dowel pin holes that the feeder mounts to. I have a home-made tool that mostly came from the guy I bought my machine from, I added a bridge over the feeder with a cross-hair to view the component pocket. Sometimes dirt or dings cause the feeder to tilt, causing the pocket to end up left/right of the expected position. Or, the sprocket and ratchet assembly drifts a bit, and the pocket is forward or backward of nominal. The calibration tool allows you to see this error and adjust things until the pocket is properly centred.Jon

author: Pseudobyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 07:21:12 pm
content: In my company we love our AOI machines, fantastic! However just know that they will only ever be as good as the person who runs it. These guys were amazing,http://www.aoisystems.com/Scanner-Based-In-Line-Desktop-AOI.htmlthey will come to your business if you would like and teach you the process around doing AOI right. We couldn't be happier after we bought our first one. Very easy to program due to the component database that they maintain. They are basically big high resolution flatbed scanners that were inverted, nothing special, but very good software. 9/10 would recommend to a friend.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 07:27:53 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 28, 2017, 06:49:32 pmThe space has been upgraded a bit to 700 sq. ft. That will be ~1000 sq. ft. once the room next door opens up and then I can take that wall down. So it's a little more room to breathe. The feeders should come with carts/racks.What sorts of other precautions would you all recommend as far as room preparation? So far I have this sequence:- Install double doors- Run electrical service (will be done by building owner), 100A or 200A dedicated breaker.- Clean the hell out of every surface in the room, floors, walls (brick), ceilings- Coat the floor with static-dissipative paint ($200/gallon x 4 gallons)- Install HEPA air filtration unit to keep the dust down- Install de-humidifier- Install air conditioner- Sticky floor padslike thisfor people walking in.THEN start moving equipment into the room. From the machine specs I will need like a ~5HP air compressor. Not sure this can go outside so if not it will need to be something relatively quiet like a Kaeser. Another several $k right there. Then an air dryer (harbor freight) and filtration.

author: nisma
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 07:30:46 pm
content: "dedicated air-ride truck," this are trucks with better suspensions for carrying art or computer equipment minimizing vibrations. It don't mean there is nointermediary loading/unloading. "point to point dedicated air-ride truck" is the term used for what you have supposed.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 09:00:08 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 28, 2017, 07:27:53 pmMore space will NEVER hurt! Will you have your own subpanel? Be rally handy to have your own breakers for the inidvidual machines. 100A 208/3Phase is actually a lot of power.Quote**BRICK** walls? Yikes, you do know bricks shed dust, every time you walk past them some dust comes off. Doesn't sound like the greatest environment. You don't need to work in a class 100 clean room, but bare bricks would maybe not be best. If they are painted and the paint actually sticks, that might not be too bad.QuoteHUH? Brick walls and you are worried about sticky mats?QuoteNote that air compressors are sometimes not clean (they can release water spray and oil mist), and they can also produce a LOT of heat. Kaeser is rotary screw, so they generate a lot of oil mist in the compressed air, as well, and you need to worry about that getting into the machines. (They do have oil-free, you probably don't want to know what those cost!)Jon

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 09:17:52 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 28, 2017, 06:57:01 pmI thought something like that... is that available for Yamaha CL feeders? I could not find any screws or anything else on them to make such adjustment.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 10:54:04 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 28, 2017, 06:43:28 pmThat depends on the machine. At least on the Quads, there is an alignment system that is perfectly fine for 0603's, SOT's, SOIC's and such.There is also an upward facing camera that can be specified for when you need higher accuracy - but I've only ever needed it for fine pitch stuff in larger package sizes, which is an additional trip for the placement head to that camera. But the determining factor is fine pitch vs not, rather than 2 leads vs more than 2 leads. My machine will place a board full of SOIC's just as quickly as it places a board full of 0603's. You can slow down the acceleration for things like a big TQFP, but that's also the case for a heavy 2 lead inductor. And nozzle changes have a greater impact than the acceleration differences for those parts.On my Fuji, there was a similar system with a downward facing camera for basic alignment, and an upward facing camera when you needed more accuracy.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 11:23:17 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 28, 2017, 09:00:08 pmIMO you are waaaay over-thinking this.Brick walls are a non issue. There are tons of old mill buildings from the 1800's around here that have been converted to cool/chic modern office/light industrial buildings, and tons of electronics/R&D/high-tech start-ups are in these spaces, tons of which are doing electronics type work. I've bought plenty of equipment from such places and all of these buildings are brick inside and out. No problems whatsoever. Even the OP's idea of static dissipative paint and floor pads isn't necessary, IMO, but it won't hurt.As for the compressor, a quiet compressor is really nice for your sanity, but all compressors are going to introduce oil and moisture into the air lines. This is a non issue because there are filtration systems which are perfectly capable of removing whatever is in the air to whatever level you need it removed.SVFeingold, look at dental compressors on eBay. I have a Jun-Air 36-150 which I dearly love, but I believe they are well over $10k new... but it's 56db when running, which is really nice. There are other models which are extremely quiet also (Silent Air, DynAir, etc)... Kaesers are fantastic industrial compressors but keep in mind many industrial compressors do not come with a tank - they are designed to be installed in an air system. But really, a Kaeser rotary screw compressor is so overkill for running a couple of PnP's that I don't see why you would be looking at one of those. Where did you get the 5HP number from? Did you get a CFM and PSI number from Assembleon? Does the machine use air only for vacuum on picking up parts or are the feeders also pneumatic?As far as electrical service goes... keep an eye on that. A 5HP compressor is going to need at least a 220V/20A circuit. If you have 100A service, and you are running a reflow oven, air conditioning, two PnP's, a compressor, lights and all the other equipment... you might be putting a strain on the power you've got. The PnP's won't draw too much, but a big reflow oven sure will. Air conditioning will. And a 5hp compressor will. You don't want a situation where your A/C kicks in while the reflow oven is in pre-heat and the compressor is running and that blows your main breaker, causing everything to shut off while the PnP's were in the middle of placing something. Just keep an eye on overall power draws.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 11:28:26 pm
content: And lastly, with all due respect to the previous poster who mentioned selling feeders, I could not disagree more. You won't get much for them at all, and invariably the ones you have will break, jam, become problem feeders or whatever. It really is sooooo nice to have lots of extra feeders. Taking half-used reels off feeders is a bitch, and you inevitably lose components in the process.If you don't have the room in your workshop for them, keep them at home or in a friends basement or rent a storage unit - I would bet my bottom dollar it would be worth it. One day you will be so glad to have that repository of feeders when you need another 10 or 20 or you have a bunch of feeders on the fritz and don't have time to clean and adjust them. The money you will save not having to send them out to be cleaned/repaired and just grabbing others from your stash will faaaar outweigh any revenue you'll get by selling them up-front.Plus, it's not like the value of the feeders is dropping - if you wind up not using them, you can always sell them later or sell them with the machine at some future date. If I haven't driven the point home enough yet - I'll add this... words you will never hear any pick and place owner say ever... "You know, I just have way too many feeders... I wish I had less".

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 11:45:48 pm
content: Hey guys, thanks for the responses! I actually just wrapped up a 3 hour meeting with a Trans-Tec (Yamaha) service tech, more on that later.I'm aware that brick walls shed, and I can cover them if needed, but I think a giant HEPA filter unit that can be had for relatively cheap will take good care of it. As the service tech told me "you think all the guys running these machines in Mexico have air conditioned dust-free rooms?"If I can put the compressor outside it'll be nice, or at least in the hallway where it won't take up space. Then I could just build a box around it to keep the noise down. The tech told me for these machines I'll need about 12 CFM @ 5 bar per machine. Plus whatever the stencil printer takes. So call it 30CFM. Both PnPs use pnuematic feeders. So a decent sized compressor. Granted these are on the conservative side with the machines running full tilt. He recommended a dedicated 20A breaker for each PnP, probably same for the stencil printer, 100A for the oven, whatever the A/C and dehumidifier draw, and the compressor. So I think 200A will do it. Each one should be on its own breaker which makes perfect sense to me.As for the tech, I talked to him a lot about the capabilities, spare parts, maintenance, etc... He even called 2 customers and had me talk to them. Granted they could be cherry picked but they both seemed very happy with the machines and said that aside from operator-induced damage (leaving a feeder on top of the machine where the head runs into it) they've never had to do any service aside from routine maintenance like seals/grease. One client had the same types of machines running since 1998 and still in production. He's setting up a visit to a company (major defense contractor specializing in electronics) where they are running these machines. Certainly gives me comfort.I got a good impression from the TransTec guy. He didn't hesitate to point me to third parties for feeders/nozzles if it made sense. He said they don't try to force people into service contracts for things like calibrations, and in my case a service contract isn't necessary. They offered to come out when the machines are delivered to check everything as it comes off the truck. Phone support is free, latest software is free, service calls if you need them might be $140-$180 per hour. Spares are still being manufactured today for both the machines I'm looking at.As for shipping I explained my plans and concerns. I was told that the moisture barrier is an unnecessary expense nif it's in a dedicated air-ride truck. Shrink wrap and desiccant should cover it along with shock and tilt sensors. As for vibration damping I was told it's also unnecessary, just put the machine on a sturdy pallet and shrink wrap it then secure it in the truck. He's been there for over 20 years and says all of their machines are shipped this way from Yamaha and that they've never had an issue doing it this way. They DO seem quite sturdy. He also explained exactly how to secure the axes - if the seller doesn't have the brackets that do this it's OK to use some of those big-ass zipties. The heads on the Opal are spring-retract and don't *need* to be secured, the heads on the MG-8 are servo driven and can also just be loosely ziptied to keep them up.The gist of it was he told me to relax and breathe, as long as the machines aren't moved between being loaded on the truck and unloaded at the destination they'll be fine, and it will be obvious if someone put a forklift through the machine or if it was removed from the truck during transit.As for the stencil printer and reflow oven, these now seem like the biggest unknowns that I know the least about.Agree on the feeders, I'll figure it out. I have 15' ceilings so it'll be easy enough to put the ones I don't need up there for storage.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 12:26:05 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 28, 2017, 11:28:26 pmI am constantly buying more and more feeders. Spares are great. Being able setup a job offline while the machine is running another is great. Some jobs are all 8mm tape, others need a lot of 12, 16, 24mm etc. Would not sell any feeders.How do the 600 feeders break down in size? Are they all the same variants or are some 8mm only good for 0603 and a special precision model for small parts?

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 12:36:14 am
content: The breakdown is:364x - 8mm; 156 are 2mm pitch79x - 12mm69x - 16mm56x - 24mm4x - 32mm2x - 44mmA couple of JDEC tray feeders as well. No vibratory feeder but I don't remember the last time I had to use parts in a tube...

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 12:45:59 am
content: I would love to have that available just for my one machine. Super easy to have a bunch of boards loaded and ready with spares that you can swap when a feeder gets fiddly or stops working at all.un-loading and re-loading feeders is a slow process - I will avoid it as much as possible.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 01:03:03 am
content: How long does it take you to load/unload a feeder? I definitely don't have room in the dry box (planning onthis one) for all the feeders, but I assume that most passives don't need to be in a dry box, just things with silicon/plastic packages.Can you unload a feeder without losing parts? I.e. cut the tape leaving 2 feet or however much extra, and wind it backwards onto the reel without dropping components?I forgot the mention the feeders are about an even mix of FV and CL feeders (I think a few CLi also but no RFID on the machines).Is there any kind of cheap inventory management? I.e. I buy a bar-code scanner on Amazon, hook it up to the machine, and scan reels so the machine can immediately load the part profile without me needing to hit a bunch of buttons.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 03:54:36 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 29, 2017, 01:03:03 amSwapping parts on a feeder is broken up into a number of steps - not a complete list....1. figure out the feeder you need to swap - the machine software may or may not do a good job of prompting this.2. Pull that feeder out and set it up on your changing station.3. Unload the feeder - trimming the tail and possibly taping the cover tape to avoid part loss if they are valuable enough to worry about.4. The old tape needs to be taped, bagged, etc to avoid losing track of what it is.5. Go find the new tape - your storage system is pretty critical here.6. Thread the new tape and setup the cover tape - this is easiest when the tape has a leader but if it is a tape previously loaded the 1st part may be right on the edge. My Quad feeders allow this, but it takes longer to tape on a cover tape leader.7. index the tape the loading position and put it in the machine.8. On the machine - you have to verify the position on some parts. The easy ones you can just put it in and go. On my machine, I may have to tweak the pickup position.I would estimate 3-6 minutes per feeder if I don't have to search too hard for the new tape and nothing else comes up. Some of my PCB's have about 40 different parts or so - At 3 minutes per feeder that is 2hrs. At 6 minutes per it's 4 hrs.If the feeders are pre-loaded and on a loading rack - it's about :15 per feeder. I keep about 80+ feeders in the machine which reduces the number of feeder swaps. I spend more time changing job than I do actually placing - so this is a critical part of the process for me. I continue to refine how I deal with parts, feeders, swaps, cut tape, part loss, etc.Most of my stuff is very low-volume, so I REALLY don't want to spend hours setting up.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 04:14:05 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 29, 2017, 01:03:03 amIn addition to agreeing with everything rx8 wrote, are you getting a component baking oven? It may not be realistic to keep all of your humidity sensitive parts in that cabinet - although I don't know how many you will have.Do you have a specific JEDEC MSL level you are planning to meet or offer capability to handle for your customers? I am not sure what the MSL is on all the various chips out there but some of them are 1-3 days from when the bag is opened until reflow. Storing them in the dry cabinet is a good step but exposure to humidity above a given level, IIRC, requires baking to be compliant - and your assembly room could be above that level (again, IIRC it's a low humidity level for the more stringent MSL categories).I've never had issues with it, but if you are planning to offer assembly services to third parties or especially using small/finer pitch stuff (AFAIK which has the tighter JEDEC MSL parameters), it may be something you get asked about or need to consider.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 04:14:13 am
content: Quote from: ar__systems on July 28, 2017, 09:17:52 pmI have somewhat older feeders on my machine, the CSM84. The ratchet pawls are adjusted with eccentric rods that are secured with setscrews. You can adjust the index position of the component pocket by about +/- 1 mm, I think.I have no idea what they have available on the Chinese clone feeders. But, I suspect REAL Yamaha feeders still have a very similar mechanism, just that it is driven by an air cylinder built into the feeder.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 04:18:56 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 28, 2017, 10:54:04 pmRight, on my Philips CSM84, it has chuck jaws that close and center the part when the nozzle lifts all the way up. Couldn't be faster. It works well on MOST components, but has some problems with certain parts. Aluminum electrolytics are round on top, so the jaws can't align the rotation.QuoteYes, I can handle up to SOIC-16 parts, but the higher pin count and wide parts need to use the mechanical alignment station, which is slower. I don't have a vision system on it.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 04:23:10 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 28, 2017, 11:23:17 pmI think the feeders are pneumatic, the door locks are pneumatic, and the nozzle Z feeds may be pneumatic.(It may have one servo Z head for large/special parts.)Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 04:44:05 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 29, 2017, 01:03:03 amI can load a feeder in about 2 minutes. Really no big deal. Now, if it is a new piece of cut tape where I have to splice the cover tape, that might be 4 minutes.QuoteI certainly do not fret over losing 2-3 resistors when taking the tape/reel off the feeder. Much better to dump them than have them flip in the pocket and cause the feeder to bind. For ICs and larger parts I get in cut tape, then I usually put aside 2-3 pieces while threading the feeder and splicing the cover tape, then I manage to put them back in at the end of the cut tape piece. If SOT-23 transistors or something, I put them in a spares bin for rework.Yes, for parts that cost more than $0.25 or so, I can carefully remove the tape so it keeps the parts from spilling. The Yamaha feeders peel back a VERY small amount of cover tape, so only a couple parts are exposed when you unthread.QuoteBar code scanner on the machine? I haven't heard of that. You are taking for the immediate future of one big job, so just have a printout of the feeder setup. Just a list of feeder number and component description. If you want to manage it with a spreadsheet, and keep track of stock on hand and how many parts are used per panel, that would be simple to set up. That would make it easy to plan when to buy what parts.For a one man shop, complex inventory management systems seem unnecessary. I manage the parts for more than 15 products, and most of it is just a few boxes with reels ordered by component value. I also have a few boxes that have parts that are used on only one product. it really isn't that complicated.At least my machine has a field in the feeder file that lists the component description, so that is one more place where error prevention can be helped. Part of my system is I put masking tape on the side of the reel to hold down the end of the cover tape. I write the component description on that with a Sharpie. When the reel is put on the feeder, the tape is transferred onto the handle of the feeder. That can be read from outside the machine. This is just part of my "system".JonJon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 05:29:21 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 29, 2017, 04:14:05 amThe cabinet has a baking function built in, 60C IIRC. Supposedly that works fine for baking parts without stressing them but I don't know if it's compliant to whatever standard (i.e. if the minimum is 12 hours at 125C and no less).Bit of a laugh compared to the rest of this equipment but I do have a pretty sweet little toaster reflow I spent a week assembling/insulating with a Controleo2. I plan to upgrade it to a Controleo3 when that comes available which can do baking cycles. I couldn't fit more than a few reels in there, and probably no reels larger than ~8-10". And I definitely wouldn't feel great putting a reel worth $20k or some such in there...but it's something.I'll have to read up on guidelines for MSL requirements. If it comes to it desiccant, humidity cards, and barrier bags are cheap enough. I kind of just assumed most fabs store all moisture sensitive parts in dry boxes but considering the cost of them...It was my understanding that the MSL rating refers to time spent outside of optimal conditions. I.e. if a part has a shelf life of 2 days before requiring baking, then anytime it's in a non-dry environment the clock is ticking. I.e. you can take it out for a day and then put it in a dry box for a week, but when you remove it from the dry box you only have 1 day remaining until you need to bake it again.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 05:34:56 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 29, 2017, 04:44:05 amFor me - loading the feeder is about 25% of the overall effort.For the pricey parts - dealing with short tapes adds up fairly quick. Putting them off to the side and re-loading them later takes time of course. I sometimes use the previous empty cut tape to load parts from the head and tail of the new tape - but that too takes time. Sometimes, I load a cut tape in the feeder, after a number of parts have been picked - I pull parts from the tail and add them back to the head since my feeders can't pick the last few inches of tape. That also takes time.There are few things that take a lot of time. It comes down to a ton of things taking a little bit of time each. I find myself looking for a few seconds of process improvement when that process is repeated over and over - it adds up to hours, then days, then weeks of time saved. To me, that value equals money, nights, and weekends.If any process takes longer than zero seconds - I do not categorize it as no big deal.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 05:49:12 am
content: Fully agree on that point rx8. If I stop and think about it too many of my days are taken up by a whole bunch of things that don't take much time independently.corporate: Just checked the BOM, there's only one part with a MSL of 3 (168 hours), a few with MSL 2 (1 year) and the rest are unlimited. So pretty light requirements.I had kind of assumed that if I have a sensitive part (say 24 hours) I could unbag it, run X boards, put the feeder/reel in the dry box, and then as long as it's in the dry box it still has whatever life was remaining at the time I put it into the box. Is that not the case? I.e. even if the part only spends 12 hours out before going in the dry box, I still need to bake it after it's been in the box for 1 month?I gave the wrong link earlier,this is the cabinetI've got planned. All of the documents I've read so far refer to baking at 125C, whereas this goes to 60C but also says it can "replace traditional oven baking." So then it sounds like you can bake at 60C and still be compliant but I've yet to find the standard where that's explicitly stated...

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 07:09:11 am
content: Hey guys, I feel pretty dumb! About the air compressor anyway. The service techs told me that each machine needs about 12CFM of air @ 5+ bar. However the MG-8 pre-installation guide shows the required flow as 350 Nl/min. If you convert that using the liter/min to CFM conversion you indeed get about 12 CFM. However, paying attention to that "normal" part and accounting for pressure differences it's really closer to 2-2.5CFM @ 5.5 bar per machine. Which seems far more reasonable. So for the whole thing, including the stencil printer, 10CFM ought to more than cover it assuming I did my math right.Looks like I don't need a 10HP compressor after all. Phew! I was starting to get really anxious about that. Thought I was crazy, my sand-blasting cabinet barely uses 12CFM...

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 07:24:38 am
content: Peak CFM and average CFM are very different. It only needs a short burst per pick - so it may be even lower on average.At my previous shop, I had a rather large storage tank and a small compressor. That allowed big bursts to be used so long as the average did not exceed the compressor.On my Quad machine, I also disabled the venturi vacuum in favor of a vacuum pump and 5 gal vac tank. The pump cycles a few every once in a while and it uses a lot less compressed air.Sent from my horrible mobile....

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 07:39:39 am
content: They don't specify in the manual, I'm not sure if it's peak or average. But that makes things way easier, that's a much cheaper compressor. The stencil printer actually draws about 2x, 6CFM @ 5.5 bar vs 2.5CFM @ 5.5 bar for the PnPs. During the vacuum cleaning cycle the printer consumes 21 CFM but presumably that's for like...10 seconds or so.I'd be interested in a vacuum pump + buffer, I've got a bunch of good vacuum pumps lying around. Not sure what that modification would look like on these machines or how easy it is. Will be a while before i want to fiddle with them.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 12:16:03 pm
content: You can always place an aditional pressure tank close to the machine, it kinda works like a capacitor for electronics. I have one in my attick converted from a used butane bottle it works great.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 04:16:01 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 29, 2017, 05:29:21 amRight, the COMPONENTS need a 125C bake, but the reels/tapes can take 50 C tops, and the waffle trays can take 60C or so. OK, how are you supposed to do this, then? Take all the parts out of the tapes/trays? RIGHT, NOBODY is ever going to do that!I never bake parts, and have never had a problem with it. I DO bake boards that have sat around for a few months. I have had a few boards blister when reflowed if I didn't bake them after sitting for too long.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 04:26:19 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on July 29, 2017, 05:34:56 amThis is a nice feature of the Yamaha feeders, they are usually able to pick parts down to the last pocket with no trailer at all! Very nice when using cut tapes.QuoteWell, if you have 100 panels to do, and there's 9 parts/panel, and you have a cut tape of 1000 parts, the loading and fiddling with that feeder is going to be small potatoes. if a feeder jams every 10 minutes, all day long, it is going to cost you WAY more time. Correcting all those gremlins that cause the machine to stop is much more important. Sometimes, it takes a while of observing the issue before you finally figure out WHY something is going wrong. I have certain parts that just always cause trouble, the worst is the 0.1 uF 0805 caps. For some crazy reason (maybe because I buy the cheapest parts as these are used a LOT for decoupling) these cause constant sticking of the tapes. I don't know if it is the paper tape is thicker, the cover tape glue is too strong in spots or whatever. But, I usually have 1 or two C-clamps putting additional pull on tape, and that makes it work at 97%.A few other parts cause minor problems, and when I get them all feeding properly, the machine just hums.JonJon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 04:30:21 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 29, 2017, 05:49:12 amI'm pretty sure that IS correct.QuoteWell, if sitting around for a whole MONTH, it might makes sense to bake, just to be sure. But, I think a lot of this MSL stuff is some kind of CYA action. I have severely violated MSL requirements on chips, and never had a failure.(Yes, I know, they claim there could be delayed damage...)Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 04:38:46 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 29, 2017, 07:09:11 amWell, I have a 2 Hp, single-stage Quincy compressor and a very small tank. The CSM84 is just about totally pneumatic.All the nozzles are driven pneumatically, and the nozzle air cylinders drive the small feeders, and trip air valves to operate the 16mm and larger feeders. The door locks are pneumatic. The main stop, push in stops and push up table are all pneumatic, as well as the mechanical alignment unit. But, the BIG air user is the vacuum generators. My machine has a separate vacuum generator for each nozzle, and once they start, they run until the board is completed. They use up about one CFM, so my 2 CFM compressor is cycling about 50%. (I have a computer-controlled dual mode compressor, so it leaves the motor running and unloads the compressor as needed to maintain pressure. When the board is done, the compressor will shut down.)So, not too clear on what your machines use for vacuum. If it has one big vacuum generator (wish mine did) it might makes sense to get a vacuum pump and remove the venturi units. They make a lot of noise and use air very wastefully.This is a fairly common retrofit on machines where this can be done.Jon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 04:58:34 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 29, 2017, 04:16:01 pmClearly you haven't been to Shenzhen.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 05:02:03 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 29, 2017, 04:30:21 pmEven a month at 0.5% RH? For this project I really don't have too much to worry about, if I get some project that involves a reel of unobtanium components that's worth $60k...at that point I'll exercise more caution and look into baking/vacuum bagging and whatnot.For the vacuum, I was told by the service tech that they do use a venturi for vacuum. I'll have to talk to him and actually look at a machine to see how easy it is to replace with a vacuum pump/buffer tank.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2017, 12:34:46 am
content: Nope, never been to Shenzhen!Supposedly, putting chips in a low humidity environment is VERY slow to pull moisture out of the chips, without raising the temperature. And, I'd love to see you get 0.5 % RH without a vacuum pump. Dessicant just doesn't pull it that low, and if it does, it won't stay that low for any time without regenerating the dessicant.As for the vacuum system on my CSM84, there are 3 different vacuum generators on a manifold with a stack of vacuum/pressure valves. Yes, it certainly could be modified, but not just swapping a hose or two.Jon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2017, 01:43:49 am
content: I don't mean that the cabinet will regenerate the chips with low humidity (although this one does heat to 60C), only that it will last for several months without needing to be baked if kept at that humidity.0.5-1.5 or thereabouts is the spec on the cabinet, it does have a desiccant that it automatically regenerates.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2017, 02:31:52 am
content: I didn't mean to imply that the moment you expose chips to humidity that you need to bake them - my understanding is the same as that of others above - you have a window of time, dictated by the MSL, that is cumulative from the time the original seal is broken until the components must be baked. You can take and remove the components from a dry box multiple times during that time, so long as you don't exceed the total amount of time exposed to non-dry environment per the MSL.I just didn't know what MSL the parts you were using were subject to - some of the more strict levels are quite short. I manufacture my own in-house products, so I don't really need to stick to any sort of documented standards, just thought it may be an issue if you were offering contract manufacturing services.RE: Air. IMO, air requirements are like power requirements. Something "needs" 10 CFM like it "needs" a 20A breaker. The machine might pull 20A at startup or under the worst possible circumstances, but in real world usage, it won't really use that much. Same with air. Vacuum venturis are inefficient, but PnP nozzles are very tiny... 10CFM sounds like a real lot, even with pneumatic feeders. If you have the luxury of getting the machines delivered and up and running with a cheap Home Depot compressor, you could figure out how much air they actually use before spending $$$ on a silent compressor.

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2017, 06:11:26 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 28, 2017, 08:29:03 amFor volume, it's more that at smaller volume it's totally eaten up by the mininum project fee, at least that's what I've typically seen.I think the per-pad pricing is a hold-over from the manual soldering days, though it somewhat represents inspection and rework costs, I suppose. But mostly it's just because everyone copies the pricing model from each other...

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2017, 08:04:36 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 30, 2017, 01:43:49 amCould anyone explain which problems caused by this?I store my parts in 40% humidity environment and never received any problems for soldering.We use TQFP, SOT23-X, 0603 chips.If humidity is very low you increase ESD problems.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2017, 08:25:37 am
content: Quote from: Smallsmt on July 31, 2017, 08:04:36 amMicro-cracking caused by rapid water boiling during reflow, also known as "popcorning"http://anysilicon.com/msl-and-popcorn-effect/

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2017, 12:02:16 pm
content: Ok so I just found out I have one component with a msl level 4 (72 hours) so what should I do , baking is there somewhere a guide for that ?

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2017, 08:21:41 pm
content: It's worth saying too that plenty of SOT and TQFP chips have an MSL of 1 (unlimited). I did an audit on the upcoming project and only one part had an MSL of 3, the rest were either unlimited or a year.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2017, 08:44:16 pm
content: Quote from: Smallsmt on July 31, 2017, 08:04:36 amOK, the scare story is that moisture seeps into the IC packages, and then causes them to explode when exposed to reflow temperatures. Well, that's pretty extreme! But, one can imagine stresses caused by moisture escaping might crack bond wires and such inside the chip. Supposedly, LEDs are really sensitive.I have LEDs that have been sitting in my basement for years and have had ** ZERO ** defects on them. I try to keep the FPGAs taped-up in their moisture barrier bags, but when I go to use them again, the humidity detector card shows some level of humidity. Again, never had a problem.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2017, 08:48:16 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 31, 2017, 12:02:16 pm72 hours is 9 8-hour shifts. Will you consume a complete reel or whatever it is supplied on in 9 shifts? If so, just remove the feeder and store in dry box when you shut down. If not, cut the tape in half or whatever and keep only enough out to use in 9 shifts.I think a lot of this MSL stuff is crazy. Maybe necessary for spacecraft or life critical gear, but just a bit overboard for ordinary electronics.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2017, 08:53:50 pm
content: Perhaps I've been overly pessimistic about the amount of hand holding the P&P needs. I just did 12 boards with 166 parts each, so 1992 parts, in a bit over 2 hours. The machine was all set up already, but I had to align the stencil on my hand stencil printer, and then turn it loose. I had one reel that ran out, so I had to change the feeder. I saw 3 mis-picks, but other than the reel change, the machine ran without stopping even ONE time! That might not be a first, but it is the first time in quite a while where it just ran through the whole job without SOMETHING going wrong with a feeder or tape.(I did have a "feedback error" when I first started up that was worrisome. Might have been a software glitch, but that could indicate an encoder cable going out. I powered down and back up, and it ran fine, so will just have to keep an eye on it.)Jon

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2017, 08:57:12 pm
content: Its a rather expensive component: a BT module and I did the first small batch for my friend three weeks ago, it has been out of the bag that long, next week I will place the next batch, well just hope it will be ok.BTW this BT module had its own pcb with gold plated connection pads on the bottom close to eachother. Stencilling did not work, too much paste made shorts. Terrible component to work with luckily my friend made testpoints on each pad so we could measure shorts under the modulepcb, all failed. So next week I will put the paste by hand with a syringe and make sure it is way less than with the stencil.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2017, 09:05:24 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 25, 2017, 04:51:33 amJust ran another batch of lead-containing boards with a NEW batch of ChipQuik. Wow, what a difference! The soldering is beautiful, and the paste spreads like it is supposed to, REALLY smooth. OK, so now I know I just have to throw the old stuff out every once in a while. I am definitely going to try the GC10 for the lead-free, on the next batch.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2017, 09:08:06 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 31, 2017, 08:57:12 pmYes, the trick with anything leadless is to make the paste aperture WAY less than the pad size. When the leadless part pulls down against the board, it squeezes the solder out, causing shorts. I think there are articles about how to figure the factor of aperture reduction.Jon

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 03:35:05 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 31, 2017, 08:48:16 pmI used to agree... however, I spent a long time and a lot of frustration chasing a problem with ATTINY chips in SOIC-8 packages. We were getting anywhere from a 1% to 50% failure rate after the reflow process depending on how long the chips had been outside of the package (but they had always been used within 2-3 months and the MSL on those is level 2 = 1 year). Atmel blamed it on popcorning due to improper storage, which was BS... but even after I sent them a couple of hundred failed chips for decapping, they said "yep, it's popcorning - not our fault".I've never had any issues with any other parts, ever. And it was only ATTINY chips from one specific fab plant... so I always felt it was an Atmel problem, but I can't prove it. But who knows. I never got failures on anything in the field. It was either dead after reflow or it worked long-term. But since that experience I've been more cautious about moisture. I don't have a "real" dry storage unit (although that one shown above looks nice) - but I do take care to store parts carefully and use sealed/dry-packed parts quickly after opening. And I no longer use Atmel

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 05:00:52 am
content: For what it's worth....I have violated MSL severely and not seen any failures in a few years.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 08:06:25 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 31, 2017, 09:08:06 pmThanks, I hoped that the pro pcb and stencil factory would have taken care of this, but I guess they just take the pad size as the stencil size, so I have to make two pcb layouts one for the pcb and one for the stencil, does not make much sense

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 08:38:14 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 01, 2017, 08:06:25 amYou don't need 2 layouts - you need a pad-stack definition with the different pad sizes for the paste layer, so teh correct apertures appear in the gerber files. The stencil manufacturer doesn't know enough about your design to know how to shrink the pads.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 08:51:21 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 01, 2017, 08:06:25 amWhat would be professional about taking someone's stencil design and arbitrarily changing it? If a manufacturer doesn't exactly follow the CAD data I give them, I'll wouldn't use them again. Its good if they query apparent anomolies, but if they just make changes as a standard practice its a recipe for dismal failure. They have no unambiguous way to know what I want or need.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 08:55:19 am
content: Ok thanks guys learned again something new todayThis was the first time I encountered such a module and something went not as expected during reflow. This was not my own but a friends project, I will have to dig into the datasheet myself to see if there is additional information to be found about the stencil pad format.

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 03:23:00 am
content: Quote from: coppice on August 01, 2017, 08:51:21 amIt is very common for stencil manufacturers to adjust apertures (I have experienced this both in the UK and in China). Usually it's for the best as they have experience and software that implements common rules of thumb (for example large pads need to be "window-framed" to avoid the squeegee getting stuck), so if you don't want them to I would recommend putting a clear note on the paste layer that you want it to be cut "as is".The same arguably applies to PCBM...

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 09:36:11 am
content: Quote from: janekm on August 02, 2017, 03:23:00 amNo, it really isn't. The only common modification - to both stencils and PCBs - is adding identification data like order numbers. Any manufacturer otherwise modifying a design will not enjoy a lot of repeat customers.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 11:18:53 am
content: Well dived into the datasheet that referred to the design in specifications that was very vague to say the least:QuoteSo they suggest to follow the copper pad for the stencil but you actually have to experiment with the stencil thickness and surface area to adapt to your specific production process, nice disclaimer.Thanks for all the advices I will reduce the amount of paste with 25% on the pads manually and experiment furtherSorry for the small hi-jacking of this thread, please continue on topic.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 02:15:13 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on August 01, 2017, 03:35:05 amWell, I think you have proved it. So, they may have had excessive porosity in the encapsulation, or some other situation that caused moisture to invade the package. But, of course, you are left holding the bag.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 02:17:29 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 01, 2017, 08:06:25 amNo, this is all left to the PCB designer, unless a contract manufacturer also generates the stencil, then they would know to reduce the apertures to fit their process.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 02:25:07 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 02, 2017, 11:18:53 am0805 and even 0603 passives can be done at 100% aperture size with little trouble, but you will get some displaced solder beads. SOIC can also generally be done without reduction. SSOP and other chips with .65mm lead pitch need a reduction to maybe 75% pad area, and .5mm lead pitch require reducing the apertures to about 50% or something like that. These numbers are for my process using .003" (approx .075mm) stencil thickness. You may have to adapt this for commercial stencils. I etch my own stencils out of brass shim stock, the etching process likely makes them come out larger than drawn. (Hmmm, someday I really ought to measure the apertures and find out how much they grow!)Jon

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 09:16:53 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on August 02, 2017, 02:15:13 pmTrue, however it wasn't a single run of chips... this was an ongoing problem over a period of years with chips purchased from Digikey, Mouser and Arrow. Atmel were made aware of the issue and it continued to happen for years afterwards. I took the time and expense to collect tons of failed chips and record the storage, usage and reflow parameters and then sent samples of each batch of failed chips to their HQ (was it in Denmark? I forget) at my expense via FedEx for them to decap and analyze. I had to hound them to do so - and eventually they basically just gave me a very curt reply of "bad process control, the chips have popcorned due to moisture - we are Atmel - a huge company. Do you REALLY think we are producing bad batches of chips? You are the only person to report this. It's obviously you that is doing something wrong".Anyway, my point is that when we used the chips immediately from the package, we didn't have problems - so it definitely seemed to be popcorning to blame, and I agree with you it seems like a process control issue at that fab plant, but I was lucky that I was manufacturing my own product and I was able to test each product during manufacture and replace the $0.40 microchip before bad parts were shipped out. But if I was manufacturing parts on a contract basis where I had no way to gauge those failures, I could have been in a huge bind with my customers who would be furious with up to 50% of their boards not working and a multi-billion dollar manufacturer on the other side blaming me, the assemblerI'm not suggesting SVFeingold do anything on the basis of this story - just getting my little Atmel rant in and telling my popcorning story. It seems to be the unicorn of PCB assembly... we've all heard about it but nobody ever really experiences it and it seems mythical almost

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 01:04:49 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on August 02, 2017, 09:16:53 pmIt wouldn't surprise me to find out that for whatever reason those parts were msl3 instead of 2....Although it seems odd that any soic-8 package is that sensitive - msl2 maybe.

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 06:43:04 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on August 02, 2017, 09:16:53 pmI used Atmel chips like you but never received this problems even if the chips where stored more than 6 Months!Our storage humidity is below 40% so maybe your environment has high humidity?

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 07:26:03 am
content: Chip vendors rarely tell someone who does not order an entire fab worth of business for weeks that they have done something wrong. To get a confession, you have to be Bosch (automotive) or Apple.But, when you get failures you might have:- Missing or damaged bond-wires.- Empty packages.- Solder ball oxidation.- Wrong lot shipped.- Wrong die packaged.- Bad plastics.The moisture is a problem in permanent moist climates. Like Taiwan.ESD damage during processing will not show until the products are in the field.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 06:45:10 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on July 16, 2017, 09:05:11 pmEven though I see I am rather late: did you calculate in the preparation of the building, setting up the line and the various bits and bobs? In my experience, people tend to focus on the big ticket items. Often, the smaller costs and items add up to a significant number. Depending on the sector, this number can be roughly equal to the big ticket items. You will need to install the devices, appropriate power, air lines, possibly prepare the floor, look into safety requirements such as emergency stops. Accessories and supporting equipment are generally not hugely expensive, but you need a lot of them.There are a lot of things that come into play besides the big ticket items. Did you factor those in?

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 06:59:35 pm
content: Yes I've been collecting all of that stuff. I haven't abandoned this thread we're just getting the financing worked out so there hasn't been much to report.For auxiliary stuff I'm trying to plan for <30k. This includes:- Air compressor- Air dryer- Hoses/fittings/filters- Electrical service (this will cost ~$3k, have been actively talking to the building electrician); includes a dedicated sub-panel with space for 30-40 breakers, the several breakers I'll actually need and conduit/outlets into the room.- Floor prep - aside from cleaning it and ESD, not sure there's much else to do.- Air filtration system (probably just going to get one of those big ceiling-mount HEPA filter units from eBay)- Rigging; $305/hr, figure 2 full days as a reasonable max- Dip solder pot or some such- Large workbench w/ shelving - not a priority and not super expensive anyway- New soldering system to tackle those damn ground planes; also not a priority- PCB pre-heater; not a priority either and I'll get by fine with a $200 cheapie- Shelves/racks/containers- PCB racks- Bitchin' speakersI'm getting a nice machine table from work that they're tossing so that will be useful for putting some of my current equipment on.Safety-wise, the e-stops are on the equipment. For a whole-room e-stop, not sure if there's much benefit at present. I'll be the only one in there for a while anyway.

author: Pseudobyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 07:46:54 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on August 08, 2017, 06:59:35 pmPlease do not put conductive epoxy on your floor, if it is done poorly the end result will be a floor that chips away and looks gross. I prefer the polished concrete with a conductive wax finish, such as:http://desco.descoindustries.com/DescoCatalog/Floor-Care-Maintenance/Floor-Finishes/Statguard-Dissipative-Floor-Finish/10512/#.WYoVC4TyvDc.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 07:52:48 pm
content: Interesting, definitely open to that. It's cheaper than the option I was considering for sure.

author: Pseudobyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 08:07:44 pm
content: Yes, we had a conductive epoxy floor for the longest time. I got so tired of looking at it that, I took the debit card to home depot and bought $300 worth of kleanstrip and went to town scrapping the whole floor. Now there are just patches of epoxy hidden underneath our machines.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 10:27:04 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on August 08, 2017, 06:59:35 pmIf you don't have a good exhaust system for the oven, the flux fumes will clog up a HEPA filter pretty quickly. If you DO have a good exhaust system, it will suck all the air out of the room, bringing in dirty air from outside. I don't have a lot of experience with this, but it seems like a problem that is hard to solve.Jon

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2017, 05:57:28 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on August 08, 2017, 10:27:04 pmNo expert either but you would put the filter on the air input not the output unless you have environmental rules that need to be obeyed.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2017, 07:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 09, 2017, 05:57:28 amOh, then the HEPA filter has to supply more air to the room than the exhaust is pulling out. That could get to be a fair amount of air, quickly filling the HEPA filters.Jon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2017, 08:37:43 pm
content: It would have to be a series of pre-filters rather thanjusta HEPA filter, as you are correct that it would get clogged extremely quickly. It's not at all out of the question to cut a hole high up on the wall, into the hallway, that would have a pre-filter screen and baffles for noise. That would provide the inlet air. The exhaust would need to filtered as well since it will come out over a walkway. Basically to get all of the noxious stuff out, but that should be a relatively straightforward filtering task by comparison. With appropriate filters and pre-filters I can't imagine needing to clean or replace them more than once a month, and less often if I'm not running at full tilt.Inlet air directly from the outdoors is not ideal for a few reasons. One is that there is a dirt path that goes by the nearest outdoor access, not a great place to get air. I'll be changing pre-filters often. In addition it's been raining quite a bit and I don't want to pull very humid air directly into the room.The HEPA filter would only be re-circulating air inside the room. I imagine after the intial period which will be naturally more dusty, the exhaust fan would cause air to be pulled through the inlet, which would pre-filter the air coming into the room to lessen the load on the HEPA filter. Aside from that there will just be the building shedding, hallway air, and whatever people carry in.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2017, 09:12:09 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on August 09, 2017, 08:37:43 pmcreating slight positive pressure in the room through a good filter will keep the room much cleaner. (How much cleaner depends on how dirty the air is outside your room.) But, that is always a good idea.Jon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2017, 09:17:16 pm
content: That is a good idea indeed. So in that case the HEPA/pre-filter would be only on the air inlet, but I imagine that will require some sort of pressure-regulating air outlet, or perhaps just a smaller opening. I feel like those filters will get clogged faster pulling air into the room constantly vs. re-circulating air that's already been pre-filtered.I'm sure some clean-room tech is laughing at me right now trying to figure out this stuff that's been solved for decades. :p

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 01:25:57 am
content: So, how is the project coming along..Interestingly i've largely done what your planning earlier this year. Set up a SMT line.. but i did it for $60k.NB - Dont' sell the feeders ( unless you want to sell them to me ), you never have enough!

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 01:47:27 am
content: It's moving along, sorry for the lack of updates! Just now I'm actually securing the space. We've been dealing with getting the financing set up which is always a hoot.I do think I will wake up many nights and think "holy shit I could have saved $100k and achieved almost the same thing." But...we'll see! MPH Can you tell more about your line and your experiences?If all goes well we may be up and running in a couple of weeks, best case scenario. We planned to already have the equipment here by now but obviously our plans had other plans...Most recently I've been thinking about all of the ancillary stuff. In addition to the air filtration I'd like to get a nitrogen bottle to see if nitrogen soldering is really so great - manual soldering, not reflow. I have a JBC rep coming to my primary job next week so hopefully she'll bring a nitrogen generator and I can try it out firsthand. I actually just ordered a new JBC handpiece and a bunch of tips at work, and coming from a Weller WD1 + WP80 I have to say I'm just a little bit underwhelmed at the JBC. Even the large tips on the T245 are about hopeless for 8-layer ground planes but maybe I had too lofty of expectations. The tips also don't wet nearly as well as my trusty Weller.What else...the air compressor setup is still an open question. A flammable liquid storage cabinet is going to be a prudent investment. Workbench, shelving, etc... Lots of prep work.I've been also thinking about PCB cleaning. Right now I do it in a very tedious manual way, with a lab hotplate, flux remover, and then an IPA rinse. Takes about forever. After finding out how cheap DI water is I'm planning to run a water line to the lab to then run through a DI water generator/filter system so I can have it on tap when needed for cleaning. No drain in the room but there is a shop sink in the hall.Speaking of cleaning, if this helps anyone I found Techspray E-line Universal Cleaner to be far superior to MG Chem 413B. Cheaper too.Curious what others do for PCB cleaning of larger batches. PCB washing systems are loony tunes expensive.Last step is to find a couch to cram in there so I can hang out with girlfriend and my little dog, cancelling out the benefit of all that expensive air filtration. :p

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 03:43:06 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on August 18, 2017, 01:47:27 amI've got two Yamaha YV100-ii machines. I was able to get them at auction when a company went into receivership in Australia. They were really cheap. Was a 'as-is/where-is' purchase. But we lucked in, and both machines where in good order. I've replaced nozzles and some sensor.. For reflow i'm using vapour phase, which is slow but awesome. I got a decent air-compressor, to run them.. I was able to lease basically a concrete shell.. Painted / sealed the walls and ceiling, and painted the floor with ESD paint. Air lines /power are in conduit just screwd up to the wall. Storage is simple but effectivel $100 shelving units from the local hardware warehouse.Have installed a Aircon unit, because it gets too cold.. No air filtration, yet, but its pretty clean.. I have a manual stencil printer (cheap unit) and got a $3500 semi automatic unit from Torch in china.. The manual is great for short runs, its quicker to setup for one.. the auto is good for longer runs, it takes longer to setup but requires less work each time.. think the cut over woudl be about 20 panels.I've been aquriing more feeders ( ex china, clones ) as need for projects.. and i seem to buy bits and peices of tools.. But baiscally it seems that the rule is not to buy anything untill you absoltely need it. Its amazing what you can do with out it. Bought ESD mats for our workbenches, and cut it to shape. made my own bonding points.>I've been also thinking about PCB cleaning. Right now I do it in a very tedious manual way, with a lab hotplate, flux remover, and then an IPA rinse. Takes about forever.Big bonus with the vapour phase is that the boards come out really clean.. the flux ends up in the bottom of the tank!.>Curious what others do for PCB cleaning of larger batches. PCB washing systems are loony tunes expensive.Im comign to the conclusion that there is a LOT of Myth and BS spun about PCBAssembly and what you need and must have. With some good thinking you really can get away with out all the 'flash' gear. My stencil cleaner cost me about $300. i bought some Ultraonic transducers on aliexpress, and had a tank made from stainless steel for example. Its really not that tricky.Last step is to find a couch to cram in there so I can hang out with girlfriend and my little dog, cancelling out the benefit of all that expensive air filtration. :p

author: Pseudobyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 01:24:41 pm
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on August 18, 2017, 03:43:06 amYou should pick some of these up for your FV feedershttp://feederfinger.com/product/yamaha-fv-feeder/would make your setup time much lower. We wanted to buy these for our company, but they don't make one for our assembleon feeders.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 04:36:48 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on August 18, 2017, 01:47:27 amHmmm, never heard of nitrogen manual soldering!QuoteMy favorite right now is the Weller WSL station and WMP pencil. I use a chisel about 4mm wide, I think as much as I can, this gives GREAT thermal conduction. I do have some finer tips for high density chip soldering and rework.QuoteIf you use water soluble flux, you can just rinse the boards off with warm water. I use no clean for anything that doesn't have high impedance circuitry or high voltages, but the WS stuff really works well.Jon

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 04:53:46 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on August 18, 2017, 04:36:48 pmSoldering in an inert gas (generally nitrogen) is extensively used for both manual and automated soldering. Look at the web sites of Hakko, JBC and probably several other soldering product makers and you'll find compact nitrogen generators and tubing systems to supply the nitrogen to a soldering iron's tip.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 10:21:24 pm
content: ERSA has got one as well, don't think Metcal does which is a shame since after using the JBC I'm really tempted to demo a Metcal unit...I think part of the JBC problem is the compact station, I don't believe it can deliver the whole 140W. Even so, I never see the power meter going above 20-30% even with a monster tip on a through-hole pin connected to 8 ground planes. On the other hand I've seen the Metcals do some very impressive stuff, so even if they are "only" 80W that might be plenty if they can actuallydeliverthe 80W.Given how cheap nitrogen is and the potential benefits for tip wetting, tip oxidation reduction, general solder wetting, cleaner joints, less flux needed, lower temperatures, etc... I really want to give it a shot.Some neat videos on the topic here:The only time I can drag solder like in all of those soldering porn videos is by using a lot of paste flux, EDSYN FL22 is my go-to. But then you have to clean the boards cause they look like shit...otherwise I'm constantly dealing with getting the tip to wet fully and easily.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 10:42:33 pm
content: Quote from: Pseudobyte on August 18, 2017, 01:24:41 pmAt $200 each, i belive they are massively overpriced for what they are. the idea is good, but an entire CL feeder is onlyUSD$60.$50 Will wait till some chinese clones appear.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 10:45:17 pm
content: Thanks, I didn't know that. I have Argon for my wine preservation.In contrast with nitrogen it is heavier than air and will stay on the bottom.Filling a low box once i could do multiple pcbs without special tools.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 11:01:38 pm
content: We use Henkel/Loctite GC10 paste.. I've noticed a difference in the soldering joints between boards that are done in the convection reflow vs boards in the vapour phase. The boards that are done in the Vapour phase have joints that are visibly more 'shiny', than those done in the convection oven. Two differences, one is temp.. the max temp in the VP is 230.. Theres no need to go higher.. In the convection its more like 260C. The other difference is that the boards are in an inert enviroment. The vapour displaces the air.. I wonder if i'm getting an improved joint quality..thoughts?NB. for the low volume stuff we do, i'm sold on the vp

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 11:15:11 pm
content: http://www.indium.com/blog/dispelling-10-myths-about-nitrogen-reflow-part-i.php

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2017, 03:38:32 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on August 18, 2017, 01:47:27 amIn 10+ years of doing this I haven't washed a single production PCB. For most electronics, a no-clean flux chemistry is perfectly acceptable. Occasionally a re-worked pcb will get some manual cleaning, but that isn't really washing, more spot-cleaning.One thing to note: If you use no-clean flux you generally don't need or want to clean it. You *can* wash it, but generally the residues are hard to remove because they are designed to turn into something plastic-like which is inert.On the other hand if you use water soluble flux, you generally *MUST* clean, as the flux will continue 'cleaning' your board after you ship. Especially with the slightest part of water.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2017, 04:06:26 pm
content: I understand it's not necessary but it's a capability I'd like to have. A lot of the boards I've done (almost all of them) have some parts that require manual work or at the very least adding additional flux at some point. Depending on the rework I might use rosin flux to make life easier. It's nicer from my POV to use the best tools/materials I have available and then just clean the board. And while I haven't done any boards that MUST be cleaned of even no-clean flux, I'd like to have the option available if anyone does have such a board.That said I see no reason to spend a ton of money on a cleaning system at this point when flux remover, DI water, and a vapor degreaser will probably do everything I need for a while.I've had a hard time removing no-clean flux before, using MG Chemicals 413B, but I recently got a 5 gallon can of Techspray E-line cleaner and it works phenomenally well on hard (reflowed) no-clean flux. Like...5 minutes in a heated bath and it's gone.My more pressing concern for the immediate future is the floor. It's concrete but has a few rough spots, I'd like to even it out with a floor grinder, etch, and coat with urethane, on top of which I'll try the Statguard ESD coating mentioned above. It's as much for vanity as it is for functionality, I'll admit, I like clean and sealed floors.Anyone have a recommendation for sealing brick?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2017, 07:22:48 pm
content: We have some boards that are run with 400 V across some capacitors, and leakage causes noise. So, we clean them with an ultrasonic cleaner filled with ethyl alcohol. sometimes it takes 3 cycles to get them clean enough. But, if you rinse off with a little spritz of alcohol after coming out of the cleaner, it works pretty well.Most of the digital and ordinary analog stuff is not cleaned, just left with the no-clean flux in place.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2017, 07:28:26 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on August 23, 2017, 04:06:26 pmHmm, I use clear masonry sealer to seal the brick on our fireplace. otherwise, it leaks into the house. You can put it on with a roller, brush or spray painter. It will be pretty smelly for a day or so.Indoors, it should last forever.Jon

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2017, 07:41:35 pm
content: Concrete floor just go out to the industrial cleaning suppliers and buy a few 20l drums of liquid floor polish and apply with a mop. Seals the floor quite well.Memories of basic training, and having the tent floor, brown sand, and having to use that polish to make that sand floor shiny. Only plus was we had liquid polish, some others only had paste wax, to do the same. Still better than the Zulu method, which involves a complex bit of work with fresh cow droppings, fresh blood and milk, and a lot of polishing. Plus it stank less.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2017, 03:11:55 am
content: Hey everyone,Figured y'all deserve an update after giving me so much good advice!Short version is I'm slammed with work from every direction. We're still getting the financing and an LLC set up. Sadly our seller fell through which is a real pain as they had what I now consider the perfect equipment for a small shop. All those feeders... Granted they did still offer some feeders but the gist is I have to find new PnP machines and Assembleon MG-8s are hard to come by at the price we had agreed on.As for the space itself we're neck-deep in preparation work. I've got another pallet of concrete patching material coming this week, and over this weekend we're using a concrete planer to grind down the high spots and clean the surface. We've already pressure washed the brick walls which was a right pain as we had to run the gas generator outside and knock out a window to do so. The concrete planer is also gas powered but it turns out we don't die after running it indoors for a couple hours at a stretch so hey, onwards!After the concrete planing (which thankfully reveals more weak spots in the concrete) we'll edge out the weak areas with a diamond cutting blade and patch them. Once THAT is done, we're renting an electric scissor lift to install a drop ceiling. Really wanted to keep the old industrial look but there is too much dust from the ceiling and I refuse to take another week to clean and seal it. I'm looking at these clear drop ceiling tiles which will at least keep it from looking like a boring office building:https://www.ceilume.com/panels/Polyline/Clear/Before the ceiling is installed I need to patch the floor and seal the bricks. Once that is done and the ceiling is in, we'll then get a concrete grinder to smooth the floor. After that we can FINALLY put down the epoxy coat. Somewhere in there the double doors will be installed and we'll pull the trigger on the 200 amp subpanel that needs to be installed by the building management.Honestly had I known the amount of work the floor would require I might have just hired a contractor to do it. We're going to be about $5-8k into this space by the time all is said and done. All for a freaking 700 square foot space. I think I deserve at least a month of free rent for all this trouble but we will see.And once all of THAT is done, I can finally FINALLY start moving my electronics lab there and be free to lock down the PCBA equipment and arrange shipping. And of course catch up on all of the work I haven't been able to do.We're getting there, very slowly, but I am waiting for the day when I can freaking relax and have a seat and a stiff drink in my shiny new lab. Hopefully it will all be worth it! I'm considering building a mezzanine as well to get more usable space, which shouldn't be hard with the 16 foot ceilings. On the other hand I don't know shit about building mezzanines...Anyway here are some pictures of the progress. Imagine this with a glossy white floor and clean as a whistle...https://imgur.com/a/zkGdCI've definitely felt the urge to say "fuck it" and drop the whole idea but I can't let myself do that. Spent 4 hours today driving around to find helicoil inserts to fix the damn concrete planer rental and as soon as I got back I rolled my ankle again in the exact same way as I did last year. So I've been grinding the floors very angrily. But I trust it will all be worth it in the end.I'll update as things keep happening!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2017, 03:23:55 am
content: Thanks for the update! I love the insight into a process normally very hidden.I hate to ask, but that cut floor looks awfully thin. Is the floor you put in up to the job?

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2017, 05:05:48 am
content: It is rather thin. I think it's thick enough to take the weight of some mostly static machines which in the grand scheme are rather lightweight. I sure hope it is because I'm not going to pay (nor would I be allowed) to get it torn up and re-poured.The stuff that looks like dirt in the hole is actually concrete, it's just not particularly hard. We have rather soft concrete in the south. God knows how old it is...this building was built in the 1880s! There are a few weak spots like that which the planer is revealing. You can clearly hear when you get to a "hollow" spot which is no longer bonded to the underlying concrete. The thickness of the top layer varies quite a bit, from 1/2" to 4" depending on where you are in the room. Those weak/hollow areas I'll cut out with a diamond saw and patch.Unfortunately building management nixed the blue floors which I was quite looking forward to. Instead I'm going to go for a high-build white epoxy to liven things up.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2017, 08:24:24 am
content: That is a nice old building with lots of charm, needs a lot of work unfortunately too.Thanks for sharing.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 08:29:56 am
content: Hey everyone, back from the dead!As it turns out our 3 month trajectory didn't pan out so easily.Financing for startups is - as always - about 10x more time consuming than anyone expects. But...they're getting closer! I've been too busy with other aspects to make much tangible progress on the space, like scrambling to get PCBs assembled manually as needed, getting real tired of that!In any case I'll have some more time this month to continue working on the space, getting it ready for the new shop. We've settled on a "stopgap" PCBA line until the full financing is available. Similar to what I planned before. This time with a big fancy PnP and then me on either end manually pasting stencils and running my Controleo3 oven for all it's worth! Quite an odd arrangement but still more than adequate to do 100 boards per day.The stopgap budget is in the ballpark of $40-$50k, and a big chunk of that is facilities. I have a great lead on an Opal Xii + 145 feeders for $30k. Trying to jump on that ASAP.I briefly considered going with the Neoden4 but ran into a couple issues. The first being that damn height restriction, the second being the limited feeder capacity. To do the upcoming boards in one pass would require TWO Neoden4 machines, and at ~8k/ea + $3k for additional feeders we're just about at $20k. I'd much MUCH rather push a little to get a truly solid PnP - even if I have to subsidize out of pocket.On the plus side the shop will be much more spacious until we eventually get a stencil printer, reflow, and 2nd PnP. I spent much of today fantasizing about a Mycronic paste jetting system instead of doing real work.The shop is also being expanded to 1000 sq ft. in the next month or two - meaning I get to do all that floor prep work all over again on the new side, PLUS tear down an interior wall.In other news, I just switched to Loctite GC10 paste and all I can say is WOW! I manually pasted and assembled 75 boards - almost 8,000 parts - and had ONE single short I had to clean up on a 0.5mm pitch QSON package. I stencil by hand and it was a breeze, pretty much every board printed and reflowed perfectly. A couple boards I printed poorly with the paste shifted over half a TSSOP pad-width across the whole board. Feeling lazy I said screw it, I'll place it anyway...turned out perfect! Even boards I pasted but didn't have time to actually place for 2 days came out perfect. Unlike the Kester and Chipquik paste I've used it was still tacky enough to make placement easy, after TWO DAYS!I'm beyond sold on GC10, it's my hands-down recommendation for anyone on the fence out there. Between that and a new roll of Kester KL100D solder, it feels just like using leaded solder.In the absence of more exciting news I'll also give Controleo3 a plug as I just made the upgrade. Love it, custom programming is pretty simple and I was able to make a profile that matches the GC10 specs almost exactly.Sorry I don't have more exciting news. Things should finally start moving in the next month!

author: mairo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 10:40:11 am
content: I also dream quite a lot recently on the Mycronic paste jetting systems. I have been doing some research to see how can one build something "similar" (bench top machine?) by using existing (or build yourself) XY gantry robots and integrating a jetting valve and controller from companies such as Nordson, Vermes & Musashi. I think the Mycronic system uses a Nordson valve..I am not looking to achieve the speeds of the Mycronic system (I think theirs high end machine can do 1.5 million dots/h?), but something in the range of 10k-20k-50k would be great. Essemtec has a system that is capable of doing 100k+ dots/h (not sure on the exact numbers) and Martin (Dave (the boss here) has a video on one of theirs older paste dispensers at Altium) has now a desktop version of theirs paste dispenser, but not sure on theirs speed (may be they can be used as a rough figure of how many one can achieve on a desktop version).I understand that for a bench top version the speed would be greatly reduced as the system will not be as stable. The jetting valves + controllers seems to be quite expensive ($5k-10k?) and also the valves have a life, but have not been able to find how often one would need to replace them.Sorry for side tracking from the main topic of the post.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 11:45:49 am
content: Quote from: mairo on January 09, 2018, 10:40:11 amWith stencils available so cheaply it's hard to see a good case for paste jetting outside of exotic builds that would need stepped stencils. You need to wait for the PCB to arrive so the leadime on stencils isn't really a problem

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 01:06:09 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 09, 2018, 11:45:49 amI agree , the only real benefit for that machine is that it also can simultaneously dose thermal glue dots for two sided smd mounting which with the ongoing miniaturization and pcb costs is becoming more and more standard.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 01:28:02 pm
content: But glue dots are much less demanding than paste - a syringe dispenser will do this just fine

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 02:37:13 pm
content: True, stil a lot of work to do manually.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 03:27:37 pm
content: I can see the value in a fast paste dispenser particularly for a low/mid volume or prototyping shop, or just to add flexible prototyping capability to a high volume shop. Seriously, look at this thing run:And 2 simpler boards:Sure a stencil printer could do that cycle in <10 seconds, which will make a difference when you're doing larger runs. For smaller runs though this would be a godsend. If you find you need to change solder paste shape/volume on any particular pad or type of pad, you can do it in 5 minutes instead of having to re-order a stencil.You could also vary paste volume per component type, or fine tune pin-in-paste components. It becomes downright enjoyable and fast, no worrying that you didn't get your stencil juuuust right. And if you need to run a mix of say, 5 boards, you don't need to replace/clean stencils, deal with solder paste, squeegees, storage, solder paste waste ($$$), etc. It just loads the program for each board, uninterrupted. For those who need it I imagine you could also switch between lead/lead-free with ease if the paste is available.Some of the guys on SMTNet who own one seem to agree, it's an enormous advantage. One guy said that the Mycronic will keep up with something like a 35k CPH PnP. Not Foxconn speeds but pretty damn quick I think. Now, a company making 100k runs...yeah, they won't want this.Downside is that last I heard it's a ~$100-$150k machine. Damn impressive though. A desktop version would be cool but far as I know the primary advantage of the piezo is speed. For more mundane dispensing you could find a regular dispenser robot for way less. IMHO the absolute biggest differentiator will be the software quality.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 03:47:03 pm
content: On topic, I just found an Emerald Xii with an LCS tray feeder that the seller is willing to let go for $30k. No feeders. Now I'm at a total loss deciding between this and the Opal. The Opal has more feeder slots (100 vs. 84) although the Emerald supports twin-tape feeders AND has the LCS which holds 40 trays without sacrificing feeder slots. If I could set it up to use JEDEC-sized cut-strip trays (I assume such a thing exists) then it could hold quite a few BOM items indeed. Although I believe (not sure) that the LCS feeder has a little conveyor that goes into the machine and actually picks the parts internally, which would certainly limit the speed and size of parts if that's the case.What would you guys do? I guess the only downside to the Emerald is the speed and lack of feeders, but I may be able to purchase the 145 feeders from the original seller separately. Series datasheet is attached!EDIT: Think I found my answer:

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 10:56:35 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on January 09, 2018, 03:47:03 pmGood to see you back, I wondered what happened.Hmm, a set of feeders will cost a BUNDLE, so a machine WITH feeders at the same price sounds like a good deal.Otherwise, check the age of the machines. How many nozzles does the Opal have? Looks like maybe 8?Can it handle large chips?Some of these machines are far more flexible than other models. You want one that can go from small passives up to big FPGA, all in one machine.As for the LCS, I doubt you really need that. I made up a little platform that holds a single waffle tray. If I have TWO larger chips, I just repack them onto one waffle tray (so far, the only board that needs that has two chips of the same leadframe). I have a hose with a suction cup for ICs on the end. I just stick it in my mouth and move the chips quite fast.So, unless you have a lot of different larger chips, the LCS is just another complex gadget to program and keep working.Jon

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 11:38:32 pm
content: In the pdf it says OS is Win NT.That is pretty old, so double check that there are spare parts for this machine like the mainboard, IDE hdds etc. If something breaks it needs to be fixed asap or your business will come to a stop.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 12:13:15 am
content: There are spares available for most things, I've got two service centers (Yamaha and K&S) within 20 miles of here and I've spoken to techs at each. By the time they become unserviceable I'll hopefully be able to afford something to replace them.As for the machines themselves I've spoken to multiple people who run them and by all accounts they're bombproof.For flexibility the Emerald definitely wins, it can handle larger chips and is more accurate. Both can accept grippers. I might be able to get 2 of my potentials to separate feeders from machines and then get a bundle of feeders for relatively little. The Emerald doesn't come with an area camera although it's an option, so I'm waiting to find out how much that option costs. I believe that's for larger or oddly shaped components. The project this is intended for does have some large chips that come in JEDEC trays, and although it is a non-issue to replace a manual feeder I wouldn't complain about the tray feeder if it's included. The "bonus" inspection conveyor is worthwhile in its own right IMHO.This particular Opal is an84head machine. Windows NT I'm not too worried about it, in fact I'm downright excited about it after considering the prospect of using either Neoden software or DOS-based software that comes on older machines. The service centers offer perpetual licenses, free backups, and free programs with latest available updates if the computer dies for whatever reason.The Emerald is a 2005 machine, not sure about hours yet. The Opal is a 2003 with 7k hours and the optional CCD camera installed (54mm I believe) that I know was pulled from a working line and had a calibration done not 4 months ago - I've been in contact with the original owner.They also quoted me for an iPulse M20 + 110 feeders, which is something I see in my dreams. $220k or about 4.5k/month lease. With any volume that may make sense but until then...dream on!I've copied the specs of the Opal and Emerald below to make it easier to see:Those of you who have done moderately sized runs, have you noticed any substantial price difference between ICs in trays vs. reels? I imagine the LCS tray feeder could be quite a boon if a board has, say, 5-10 components that could be loaded in trays. That's 5-10 feeder slots that just opened up. On the other hand, it has 84 feeder positions to start where the Opal has 100. On the other, other hand, the Opal can only handle 11mm tall parts while the Emerald can do 20mm. On the other, other, other...

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 01:53:34 am
content: Damn...that is dreamy! I want to upgrade.I just picked up a large lot of feeders for my Quad system and the company had a few of these in there shop. I was drooling. What I really wonder is the practical realities getting them set up, programmed, debugged and full speed running. I spend most of my time setting up, loading feeders, fiddling with various details before I can actually run full speed with an acceptable level of issues.These things look like a good speed and versatility overall. I suspect that the challenge is to have the rest of the line and the operating system rather tightly dialed in or the placement machine will be waiting for you to feed it.This is cool, hope it comes together.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 02:13:24 am
content: Since for the near future - if I manage to even get this machine - I'll be pasting manually and reflowing in my trusty toaster, you bet the machine will be waiting on me!My time breakdown initially was something like - for a run of 50 totally manually assembled boards:1)2-3 hours- Preparing the assembly. This means labeling a bunch of little SMT boxes with each BOM item and sticking parts in there so they're all right in front of me.2)30 min. setup + ~1-2 min./ea- Stenciling3)~20 min.- Placement ~ 100 components per board, single side4)~5 min.- Reflow, although it's a concurrent process except when I have to open the door to cool at the end.5)~5 min.- Placing 13 THT components, trimming leads, and fluxing6)~5-10 min.- Dip soldering THT + cleaning up any bridgesOf course something always comes up, realistically I was averaging about an hour per board, all said and done. If I get a half decent manual stencil printer I could do a couple panels of 4x boards per minute, and reflow a panel every 6 minutes. With the reflow as a bottleneck that's still 300+ boards per day. 10x the output we need for now.BUT - and this is the key - MUCH more enjoyable and not driving me insane quite so much as manually placing thousands of components. It's cathartic for one or two boards, but the rest is just torture. I'd much rather spend several hours programming the PnP and then letting it do its thing for the next few weeks. We're engineers! Shouldn't be wasting our time on such mundane things as manual PCBA if we can avoid it.The frustrating thing is the THT. Good god, I never realized just how time consuming those are until I had to do a bunch. Previously I was soldering not only the 13 2-pin parts, but two 40-pin headers per board. Ugh. The simple investment of $40 in a solder pot made my life so much easier. Unfortunately I needed it ASAP and could only find solder locally that was flux-cored on a roll. DON'T DO THAT! If you don't die from the fumes you'll want to after dealing with mopping up a shocking amount of flux sloshing around your pot.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 02:23:23 am
content: Insanity avoidance was THE reason I got a line put together. I do not need much speed but I was doing boards that were roughly 1hr each full manual. The volume went up to where I spent 3-4 days placing components 12 hrs each day. I was about to punch a baby it was so awful. (That is a joke for the dense readers)The first PCB took an hour, the last one took 90 minutes.The automated version of that not only goes much faster, but it saves my sanity. Also, I have been able to use more difficult parts in my designs since there it is no more difficult to assemble an 0402 than it is an 0805 part. There is no problem placing BGA's, .4mm QFN's etc. Placing those by hand is possible, but slow.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 03:43:54 am
content: bEEN THERE, and felt the pain.I'm bottled necked right now by my reflow, am working on that now, but i pretty much get all our production done on 1 day a week and our line is idle for 6 days! I'm still using manual Paste, and to be honest i dont' need up speed that up any, i can paste 20 panels in 20 minutes, stack them up and then just insert them in the machine as it needs them.The lines not perfect and it does need some attention from time to time, so trying ot multi task is annoying.. But i cna do somethign like binge watch netflix at the same time.

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 06:43:37 pm
content: On the topic of SMD glue: Can I just dispense it (syringe) after the paste has been stencilled on, and cure it as part of the reflow process? I really don't do many double-sided loads, but when I do I'm always rather worried about stuff falling off.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 06:56:35 pm
content: Quote from: ovnr on January 10, 2018, 06:43:37 pmI think that's the idea, though it's only necessary for large /heavy parts (relative to pad area) . Most parts will stay on from surface tension.If possible you design for one side to have all small parts, and assemble that side first.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 07:13:15 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 10, 2018, 06:56:35 pm0.045g / mm2 is the magic ratio number for weight to pad size for the surface tension. If you are under this, then surface tension should hold it on.. if you are over, then you need to glue it, or do it 2nd side.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 07:22:29 pm
content: For what it's worth, I do double-sided boards regularly and can't recall any parts falling off.Typically they're boards I've designed so stuff on the bottom is small anyway, but I've never had an issue. Even inductors and large ICs seem to be fine. For inductors if they're small they won't have any problems. Small for me is 5x5mm or less, and not very tall. Even small electrolytics will probably be OK. Connectors can be an issue if they're chunky.It's not so scary as you may think. Buy a scale that can do accurate mg measurements for $20 and do the math on parts that worry you.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 08:53:20 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on January 10, 2018, 12:13:15 amOh, one other detail is maximum component height. One of those machines can handle components up to 12 mm tall! My CSM84, for instance is limited to 6.5 mm, and so some electrolytic caps are right at the edge. Also, the feeders do not properly accommodate tapes with such tall components. The tape rides "high" in the feeder and the sprocket teeth tend to slip.QuoteNo, but Digi-Key will take expensive chips out of the waffle trays and repackage them in tapes cut into lengths of 5 chips! I've complained to them about this, and it seems like maybe they don't do this as much anymore. I used to order 25 parts and still get them re-taped.I imagine the LCS tray feeder could be quite a boon if a board has, say, 5-10 components that could be loaded in trays. That's 5-10 feeder slots that just opened up. On the other hand, it has 84 feeder positions to start where the Opal has 100. On the other, other hand, the Opal can only handle 11mm tall parts while the Emerald can do 20mm. On the other, other, other...Well, you want ONE machine that can do the widest variety of part shapes and sizes. I can't imagine SMT parts 20 mm tall! I can imagine 7-10 mm tall, though.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 09:00:05 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on January 10, 2018, 07:22:29 pmYes, I have a board that has a big switching regulator on the back, 5-lead TO-220 package (LM2575). And, I have never had one fall off during reflow of the front side.This does require TWO passes through the reflow oven. But, I would never try to paste and place the back, then paste and place the front and then do just ONE reflow.WAY too easy to touch a part on the back and knock it out of alignment or off the board.Jon

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 09:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on January 10, 2018, 09:00:05 pmI doubt that doing the second side without reflowing the first would ever be viable without gluing everything.Can't see any major reason to do itJon

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 09:22:07 pm
content: Agree, I was referring to two separate reflow cycles of course.jmelson, the Opal has an 11mm part height limit while the Emerald has a 20mm limit and I believe higher with some caveats. I see this as most useful for certain things like switches, connectors, big caps. Even if those things are not reflow safe it'd be awesome to be able to use the Emerald as a placement machine for wave or dip soldering.However it's also one of those things where if I'm being honest I can't recall an SMT board I've designed ever having parts that high, with the exception of a few electrolytics that were juuuuust at that limit. So it may not matter for 90% of cases. In my experience though, the 10% remaining will end up taking 50% of your time.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 10:11:19 pm
content: I have YV-100ii's ( Opals ) which are supposed to have a limit of 6.5mm.. I regularlly place some inductors that are 12mm. Theres a few parts that i hand place its just not worth the drama, and if its only a couple of parts in low volume its not really an issue.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 10:24:29 pm
content: Since the stated height limit accounts for moving tall partsoverpreviously placed tall parts, I assume that you can easily place something that's considerably taller provided you take on the responsibility of ensuring that you don't smash parts together. I.e. if you have a single 15 mm part you can probably place it find, assuming you don't have others on the board that will violate the vertical clearance. That sound about right?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 11:04:45 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on January 10, 2018, 09:22:07 pmYup, I can't imagine what the SMT tapes would look like with a 20 mm high part. Also, can the feeders actually feed tapes like that? I'd have my doubts.Jon

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 11:06:16 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on January 10, 2018, 01:53:34 amHey did you buy the batch of 100+ feeders on eBay?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 11:10:11 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on January 10, 2018, 10:24:29 pmWell, at least with my CSM84, that level of control is very difficult. You could, in theory, rearrange the whole placement file so it places parts from the back of the board first, toward the front, thereby never passing over already placed parts. (Prevents you from using rear feeder rail.) Since my machine has a mechanical alignment station on the back rail, it means all the large parts have to pass over the board to get there. But, those parts are not tall, so maybe OK.But, other than doing something like that, you only tell it "put part from feeder 5 onto xxx,yyy position", and not the specific path to travel to get there.Jon

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 11:31:44 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on January 10, 2018, 11:06:16 pmYes, I did. 140 feeders overall. 170 reel arms. The majority are in great shape with fresh peel rollers. The guy also threw in 4 nozzle changers and about a dozen parts feeders that have enough spares to repair any of the main batch that have issues.I am planning some modifications to do 0201/0402 and 2mm pitch. Finally, I have enough feeders to load up all parts of all my current designs and still have a bunch of spares. 240 feeders total plus my custom vibe and cut-tape trays.It is hard to have too many feeders, but I may be there.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 05:19:04 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on January 10, 2018, 11:31:44 pmBastard!I put an offer in on those - but it was over the holiday weekend and it auto-expired before the guy saw it. The guy emailed me to accept it and said he will send me an invoice which I was waiting to get to pay. Then he went radio silent and the auction ended and he stopped replying to me. I guess in the meantime you must have sent a higher offer.I don't suppose you want to sell off a few of the feeders, do you? I especially need a few 12mm feeders and could use a few 8mm feeders too. They come up on eBay from time to time but that was a great deal for the whole batch.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 05:33:46 am
content: Sure....sending a PM.

author: Marina CSM
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 01, 2022, 05:25:03 pm
content: Hello!I would like to know where I can find spare parts equivalencies for my Philips CSM and Yamaha, and I would also like to know where I can buy them (O-rings and such). I would be very grateful if someone could give me some advice.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2022, 06:11:14 pm
content: Quote from: Marina CSM on February 01, 2022, 05:25:03 pmWow! I got rid of my CSM84 last year, and replaced it with a Quad QSA30A (made by Samsung). The base machine is a Samsung CP30, which apparently was REALLY popular in the far East, tons of parts available from multiple vendors at reasonable cost. I was pleasantly surprised, as I needed a bunch of parts to get this machine running. All the mechanicals for your CSM should be available as Yamaha parts. But, the CSM might be so old that the brokers are not listing them anymore. Send inquiries to various brokers who deal in PCB machinery, and see if they still have the parts.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2022, 06:17:15 pm
content: Quote from: Marina CSM on February 01, 2022, 05:25:03 pmAs for O-rings, I just measured the ones I needed and ordered them from places that specialize in those. The cover over the vacuum filter were quite delicate and easily damaged when changing the filter. I did buy replacement filters from a far East outfit.ZK Electronic Technology Co., LimitedTel: 86-13590495325Website:www.smt-cn.comSkype: harper55551They were US$0.85 each, just a tube of what looks like the same material cigarette filters are made from.I did clean my old fiters with solvent like Acetone a few times to get oil out of them before replacing.Jon

author: Marina CSM
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 02, 2022, 07:05:16 pm
content: Thanks for the tip. Do you know where can I find the equivalences between Yamaha codes and Philips CSM codes?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 01:14:07 am
content: Quote from: Marina CSM on February 02, 2022, 07:05:16 pmNo, sorry, I don't have a cross reference. Maybe the outfits that sell these parts know what fits what.Jon