UK IS doing something about man caused climate change - No more coal - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 11:40:58 pm
content: Last Major Coal Mine Closed In EnglandInteresting stat.... In 2019, coal-fired power made up only 2% of the nation’s electricity generation.Article states Britain for the first time in well over 140 years went 2 months without burning coal.https://www.intelligentliving.co/last-major-coal-mine-closed-england/Anyone live in or near London? Are there days when the fog is so thick in London you can't see more than a few feet? Or is that a thing of the past? i know the "Great Smog" of 1952 is said to have killed 12,000. With less coal and fossil fuels being burned I wondering if that's resulting in less foggy days in London.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 06:58:27 pm
content: Really Cool !! Congrats to UK!Next country on the list removing coal: Germany !Next energy to be removed from the grid: Nuclear.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 07:04:23 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 19, 2020, 11:40:58 pmNo, absolutely not. Air quality in London isn't great by modern standards, but it hasn't been anything like that since the Clean Air Act 1956.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Air_Act_1956

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 07:35:35 pm
content: It's funny, I had some colleagues from Korea who had obviously been taught about the Industrial Revolution in their history classes at school which seemed to have left them some sort of Victorian smokey coal burning industrial preconception. They were quite surprised to see all the greenery flying to Heathrow... and to be able to see stars at night (although I suspect that was probably more to do with living in Soul - I don't know if you can see them in central London these days unless you're in one of the parks). Edit: but that's more down to light pollution than actual pollution.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 04:00:37 am
content: Quote from: f4eru on August 20, 2020, 06:58:27 pmThen we get blackouts like we are having in California now. Maybe this will work when we get energy storage.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 04:33:43 am
content: Quote from: ahbushnell on August 21, 2020, 04:00:37 amRight now, parts of California will be getting massive smogs from the bushfires as well, like Sydney & Melbourne did late last year in Oz.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 04:57:52 am
content: I'm in California, 20 miles east of San Francisco. They sunsets are incredible. Haven't seen sunsets and colors like this since all of those California smog days we had decades ago. Can see more the 5 miles or so. The smell of smoke is so thick, we aren't going outside and are keeping doors and windows shut even though it's hot here.Lets see we have covid, fires, now all we need is a good earthquake.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 09:31:19 am
content: Aren't the blackouts in Cali due to the combination of extreme heat requiring great load from AC systems, plus the fear of wildfires due to high voltage cables/circuit breakers failing catastrophically?That's a unique set of circumstances that would be very unlikely in the UK and the UK has a well defined demand management service. We can knock off megawatts at a time for heavy industry and import gigawatts from the Europeans and Irish if really needed.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 10:21:31 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 21, 2020, 09:31:19 amThe blackouts are not associated (this time) with fire issues. The problem is heat and lack of capacity to handle the load. Also the wind has been low reducing that energy source. We have been shutting down plants. A gas peaker plant near where I work was recently shut down. This will continue if we either do not increase the power sources. Green energy needs energy storage to work on a large scale. Also sources external to the CA grid are overloaded because of the heat.It's interesting looking at the CA ISO web site. This shows the flow of power in CA.http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 10:41:25 am
content: You can see a near real-time dashboard for UK electricity generation, including fuel types, here:https://gridwatch.co.uk/.Looks like this:Edited to add: Sorry I forgot that this was a delayed near real-time feed. That is, the figures update in near real-time but they show you what happened an hour ago - the delay is because electricity demand information is 'price sensitive' (there's a live market for electricity in the UK) and the site can only publish historical rather than live data.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 11:24:12 am
content: It's rather nice to see that we're generating 60% of demand from renewables today, mind you, it's pretty windy at the moment. Still, it's encouraging to see that all the wind and solar farms and actually making such a significant contribution - something that seemed like a bit of a pipe dream not that many years ago.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 11:50:05 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 19, 2020, 11:40:58 pmYou really are clueless. A few minutes research would have told you that London hasn't seen smog since the early 1960s, when then clean air act came into force. They stopped homes being heated by coal, initially forcing people to burn much cleaner but costlier coke. The effect was dramatic, needing only a couple of years to transform London's winter air. In the 1970s cheap natural gas lead to a rapid change to gas central heating, but the air had already been cleaned up by then. I remember those smogs as a child. They were really awful. The air quality in central London can be bad today, but its due to cars, not coal burning. Too many busy roads in central London are packed in among old buildings that limit air circulation, and pollution builds up badly around them during the day, somewhat dissipating each night.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 11:59:31 am
content: Seems most of California and the west coast is in the midst of a highly unusual heat wave. A few days ago we had 12-14 hours of lightning, thunder and bursts of rain. This is not highly unusual, but I don’t think this type of weather has ever been recoded in the history of weather in California. Lightning strikes from this storm caused over 200 fires. This is something we have never seen before. We typically don’t have rain until November or December. I think last time it rained in August here was 20 years ago.If you ever need a case study on how green energy doesn’t always work this is one of those times. There is no wind, so no/little electricity is being produced by wind. Solar electricity output has decreased to all of the smoke in the sky. We have hydro, but this time of year water levels in reservoirs are low. We are prone to droughts so now would not be the time to be releasing more water.We certainly don’t want to burn more coal and add to man caused climate change.Natural gas is an interesting one. We don’t wan’t to burn it and add to man caused climate change.... But natural gas power plants do clean the air. There is measurable less pollutants in the air when the natural gas power plants are running.Geothermal I know nothing about. I would suspect the power companies are producing all of the electricity they can with geo.We had some tidal and wave generation. It’s been tried many times here over the years and it’s never worked for us.This leaves nuclear. I know there are a lot of people who are against nuclear, but we are out of options. Nuclear with the technology we have right now is the only proven technology we have that we know will work. It’s also proven to be by far the safest. Yes we have some areas which are contaminated, but we have destroyed far more land with coal mining, flooding large areas of land for reservoirs, not to mention all of the land and marine environments destroyed to get petroleum and natural gas.It’s looking like grid storage battery technology has hit some technical issues. While we are close, there are still technical issues we have not been able to resolve. MIT Professor Donald Sadoway thought he had the “perfect” solution and walls have a commercial product this year. Nope, not yet. But from what I understand he is very close.I think we are foolish for not building more nuclear.We have not had any blackouts this year due to high winds but I’m sure they will be coming. I have solar, but it’s useless when the grid is down. I have no interest in spending $10,000 to $20,000 for batteries for the few times a year the grid is down.Not sure if folks know that Hydro power is turning out to be nor so renewable. Lake Mead which provides power to Las Vegas and Glen Canyon are losing water faster than they can be filled. Lake Mead/Hover dam will never be filled again with water. Same is true for Glen Canyon.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 12:04:30 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 21, 2020, 10:41:25 amIt's only delayed by minutes - notice the time is in GMT, and we're in BST.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 12:13:13 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 21, 2020, 12:04:30 pmDoh!

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 12:14:40 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 21, 2020, 11:50:05 amNo need to insult me. I’ asking because I trying not to be clueless. I do thank you for your answer as now I am less clueless. My friend I did spend a few minutes researching which is why I know about the Great London Smog and the Great London Stink.But my question was about the fog, not the smog which is why I was asking if there is anyone who lives in London. I know the burning of coal, wood and other carbon fuels can result in thick fog. London, like San Francisco is famous for it’s thick fog. This something I can’t easily get with a Google search, I can only get it from someone who has lived in London for decades. I will an ask the question again. Does London still have thick fog days? Or are those pretty much a thing of the past with the elimination of burning coal?I welcome a respectful reply. But if you are going to be a dick about it and not treat me with respect calling me clueless please leave that part out. Thank you.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 12:21:53 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 21, 2020, 11:50:05 amDoug might be ignorant on some things British but he's demonstrated an ability and willingness to learn, no need to be rude and call him clueless. If it was a cluelessassertionperhaps some opprobrium would be due, but not for a question, especially one qualified with a subsidiary 'Or am I wrong?' question.Now, I've got to go out. Where are my top hat and cane?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 12:26:41 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 21, 2020, 12:14:40 pmI've lived in various London boroughs since 1979, and worked in the West End and City (i.e. 'downtown' for you benighted colonials). Fog, even mist, has been a rare sight in London all the time I've lived here. Because of the London microclimate (generally a few degrees hotter than the surrounding counties) fog is actually less prevalent than in rural areas.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 12:33:36 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 21, 2020, 12:14:40 pmFog has little to do with clean air. Its a climate issue. Some of the cleanest air in the world is foggy for much of the time. Smog is what happens when you get fog plus pollution, and the fog hangs around long enough to start collecting up the freshly generated pollution that is near ground level (less freshly generated pollution tends to be more distributed through the atmosphere). Parts of London still have plenty of fog in the winter, but its reasonably clean white fog, even on the odd occasion when it hangs around for a long time.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 12:39:51 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 21, 2020, 12:26:41 pmReally? There are a number of seriously foggy days (ones that slow the traffic to a crawl) per year in North London (e.g driving around the M25). Most last less than a day, but some last multiple days.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 01:16:39 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 21, 2020, 12:39:51 pmWell, the M25 isn't London, it's the edge of where Greater London meets the surrounding countryside for most of its perimeter - I'd expect fog there where the hot city air meets the cold country air. Inside the M25 fog is a rarity, I can't off-hand remember the last foggy day we had here in Newham (7 miles from central London). When I lived the other side (extreme west London - Uxbridge/Cowley/Colham Green/West Drayton/Heathrow) 17 miles from central London and less than 1 mile inside the M25, the situation was much the same. If you want to be quantitative about it I'd imagine that very precise records for fog at Heathrow would be relatively easy to find. (It is, Met Office reports for Heathrow, see below.)There was one spot over there that used to regularly get winter early morning fog and that was Colham Green, where there's a farm in a frost hollow incongruously in the middle of an otherwise urban residential area. Drive to the other end of the road and it was gone.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 01:29:50 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 21, 2020, 01:16:39 pmThe fog in hollows thing can be really interesting to watch. Sometimes fog works down from above. Sometimes it works up from the ground. Along roads like the Ridgeway, between Enfield and the M25 roundabout at Potters Bar, which undulates a lot, highlights this. One day you can drive along it and drop into fog as you drive into each dip. Another day you can drive along it and come out of the fog every time you enter a dip.I used to work at Motorola's plant in Tai Po Hong Kong (long since gone). That looked across the Tolo Harbour to a line of hills on the far side. Its foggy a lot of the time that close to water. Every foggy day we would look across the harbour to see a different pattern of altitudes visible and invisible on the hillside opposite. Very pretty, and an excellent illustration of atmospheric dynamics.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 04:03:02 pm
content: Sorry to keep asking questions about the London fog, but I think there might be some differences between London fog and the fog I'm use to in the San Francisco Bay Area.As a kid I remember hearing stories of the thick London fog or pea soup fog. This is something we have in the San Francisco Bay Area. But I'm wondering if what's being called London fog is really smog?I was taught in school there are several different types of fog. And that fog needs a nucleation sites to form, something like particles of dust, soot or air pollution. The fog I know is white in color and can be so thick you can't see more than a few feet. Smog which was once very common is now rare. It's not at ground level but in the sky and is yellow/greenish brown in color. When in the hills in the Bay Area you can taste the smoke and feel it burning your eyes at ground level it's never gets as thick as the fog.Since California enacted tough anti-pollution I can't remember the last time I can remember seeing that yellow/greenish/brown smog. Never really thought about it much but it seems like there aren't as many of those thick white smog days either.This brings me back to my questions about London's fog. Was the Great Smog of London that yellow/greenish/brown color at ground level? (I have only seem black and white photos.) Was the smog so thick you couldn't see a building on the other side of the street? And this smog was in the city at street level, correct?With all of the pollution reduction methods that have been put in place is London seeing a lot less fog? And I'm assuming it's now rare to have any thick smog days.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 04:27:53 pm
content: Quote]think your getting confused between fog and smog.Fog (or mist if visibility is above 1KM) occurs naturally,without the help of any pollution,its jut water vapour.Smog is the reaction between sunlight and pollution in the air.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 04:30:39 pm
content: The Pea Souper, or 'London Particular' was smog and has, as someone said earlier, disappeared since the introduction of the Clean Air Act.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 05:22:19 pm
content: I'm attaching a pictures from San Francisco of smog and fog. Smog is above the ground where it affects people's views of the city. Where fog is a at ground level and there are times you can just barely make out the car in front of you.Reason I'm asking all of this is due to man caused climate change deniers. (I have two in my family.) If we have man caused air pollution and we can clean it up, wouldn't it be logical the think man is the cause of climate to change? And that we can do something about it.I am a bit surprised I have not heard this explained to man caused climate deniers to demonstrate man's burning of carbon fuels does have an effect on our weather and environment.By the way we had well over 10,000 lightning strikes which started nearly 300 fires. And we are still having record braking temperatures.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 05:44:12 pm
content: I've sat in SFO and watched the cloud / fog rolling in over the hills. That's a combination of warm air and the cold sea current running along the Pacific coast. It's the reason the reason that Sunnyvale and other areas have a reasonable climate, rather than being desert.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 06:10:05 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 21, 2020, 04:03:02 pmWhen I was a small child London had many serious smog clouds in winter, which often lasted for many days. We got nice white natural fog, glaring from bright daylight, since fog doesn't absorb much. It could (and still can) be thick enough that you can only see a couple of metres. This is perfectly natural, but if the fog persisted for any length of time pollution from coal burning to heat houses would darken the fog, and sometimes make it yellow, too. This was smog. It could become so dark over a few days that it blocked a lot of the daylight, and you really couldn't see your hand at arm's length. The clean air act was passed in 1956. It took time for changes to be made, and sufficient coke production to be scaled up to replace the coal used for heating. By the beginning of the 60s things were in place, coal use was banned, and things rapidly cleaned up.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 09:44:01 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 21, 2020, 06:10:05 pmThank you very much. This is what I wanted to know.I thought California lead the way for clean air; appears you folks were ahead of us by a decade or two. I know clean air was not and is not popular with some folks in the US. But this is one time I would like to thank our politicians and government for passing clean air laws.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 07:49:36 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 21, 2020, 11:59:31 amThe technical issue with battery storage is that it costs too much per joule; it is only economical where its high power is an advantage. And I do not believe for a moment that the California legislature was not aware of the problem they were creating, and prepared to take advantage of it.https://youtu.be/h5cm7HOAqZY

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 08:13:27 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on August 22, 2020, 07:49:36 pmThat's where other technologies, like thermal storage and adapting demand to match supply, become part of the solution.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 08:24:52 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 21, 2020, 09:44:01 pmI think the important thing to know about the London SMOG was - that it was caused a lot of different not clean burning coal fires. Everything was coal fired at the time and the good quality coal was exported and UK mostly only had low quality coal to burn (depts to pay off after the war caused that issue)But coal burning now vs then are two very different things - not very comparable at all. Drawing a direct line between the two is not sensible. Pollution from current coal fired stations is not even the slightest comparable to the 1950's.Now the UK wants to ban Natural Gas from New Builds and soon thereafter for every house. They want to move us all to electric heat. That is a disaster a la California waiting to happen.Natural Gas converted to water heat with modern condensing boilers is extremely efficient with very little overall environmental impact. (Vs generating it remotely from Gas powered or even "renewables") - and distribution network is in place.Roughly it means the UK electricity network will soon have to support 2-3 times the current load to support heat loads - even via heat-pumps with COP between 5 to 10.Then add the electric cars...My new house will therefore be self sufficient and able to run when we start getting more brownouts here. (Last 12 months we have had 2 brownouts in SW London) - increase in brownouts is a certain thing UNLESS we get more nuclear power plants or suddenly find another "friendly" way of generating electricity.Since most EU countries are going down the same path - we will all have the high demands and low supply times at roughly the same times.So cross border electricity trade will become very expensive and the ones that will pay the most per MW will get the supply (Dusk time winter with no wind) - so again the poor countries will be the losers.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 08:34:27 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 22, 2020, 08:13:27 pmIF those technologies work, why haven't we been using them?How exactly would demand adapting work?You are making me think more nuclear is really what we need.Sadoway's liquid metal batteries looked very promising. Should have been a commercial product this year. Apparently he's run into some tech issues they still can't solve. The way he's approaching this makes a lot of sense.But nothing comes close to the energy density of nuclear.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 08:45:15 pm
content: Not sure if the question about fog in in England has been fully cleared up, but winter fog in England (and all of Britain) is very much a thing. It is just plain natural weather fog caused condensation of moisture in cold, humid air. It occurs regularly, causing poor driving conditions, traffic collisions and airport delays. Heathrow and Gatwick can be severely affected. It was often my experience driving to work on a winter morning that I would have to limit my speed to 20-30 mph and proceed very cautiously. Dense fog naturally will be much less severe in central London, but get out into the suburbs and you may run into a wall of white.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 08:53:46 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 22, 2020, 08:45:15 pmThanks, sounds very much like SF Bay Area and the delays at SFO. Any idea if the fog was thicker and if there were more foggy days when coal was being burned and cars polluted more. That's really what my question was about. One other questions, when Londoners refer to fog as being pea-soup was that because it was not fog but smog? That yellow,green, brown stuff that burns you eyes and lungs when you breath. Was that at street level? (Meaning people were waling around through it? And was it as thick as fog where you can't see a building across the street?Just trying to do a comparison of way back then with now.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 09:07:14 pm
content: I wasn't alive to experience it, but apparently there were indeed thick, polluted smogs in London and other cities back then. People said "the fog was so thick you couldn't see your hand in front of your face", but maybe they were exaggerating a bit. Being unable to see a building across the street seems quite believable. And yes, if people were burning coal, which contains sulfur, then the smoke would combine with the fog to produce a smog that would be nasty to breathe. The Clean Air Act was a really important piece of legislation.To give you some background, central heating was a relatively recent introduction in Britain. The house I grew up in was built in 1960 and had an open fireplace in the living room, and a coal burning stove in the kitchen for heat and hot water. There was no heating upstairs at all unless you plugged in an electric fire. The coal man used to come round once a week and fill up the coal bunker in the back yard with coal (or coke as has been mentioned). A childhood chore was to go outside and bring in coal for the fireplace (forgotten word: "coal hod"). One of the upgrades my parents (and everyone in the street) eventually did, was to have central heating installed and dispense with the coal.You might imagine that in the 1950's, every house in London would have been belching smoke out of the chimney.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 09:16:18 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 22, 2020, 09:07:14 pmEven now, with the current clean natural fog in London (at least suburban London), there are days when you can't see the building across the street. In a 1950s smog you could see your hand in front of your nose, but you couldn't always see it an arm's length.Quote from: IanB on August 22, 2020, 09:07:14 pmCentral heating didn't displace coal. Coke displaced coal. Affordable central heating had to wait until the end of the 60s, when cheap North Sea natural gas came ashore in quantity.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 09:20:01 pm
content: Thanks for sharing. Interesting that you used coal to heat the water. Living in California coal/coke is something that's unheard of. Natural gas and propane yes, but not coal. I've been listening to podcasts about San Francisco in the late 1800s and early 1900s. I head stories of how the residents would do the wash, then hang it out to dry only to see the clothes were black from the coal burned in the trains. Or it would be a warm day and folks would have their windows open only the have that black coal suit blown into their homes like when they were having dinner. I suspect it was even worse in London.Really appreciate the info. The fires here in California are still out of control. Visibility is only about 3 or 4 miles. The smoke is thick and can be smelled. Haven't really been out of my house for 3 or 4 days now.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 09:20:53 pm
content: Another piece of modern day information for context:When I visited India a few times in the 1980's, I had occasion to travel far out of town and away from any big cities. The road would pass through rural villages, where the residents would light open fires for heat and cooking. I can tell you that on passing through one of these villages in the evening, you would be hit by a wall of fog so thick you couldn't see the front of the car through the windshield. It was effectively a case of driving blind with nothing to see a few feet away from the car in any direction. The driver would basically open the side window and drive along with his head sticking outside the car to see better. It was rather scary.Having experienced that, I can believe that what they called a "pea souper" did exist.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pea_soup_fog

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 09:24:08 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 22, 2020, 09:16:18 pmWhat I recall is that we had two coal bunkers at the time. One would be filled with coke for the kitchen stove, and one would be filled with anthracite for the fireplace in the lounge. I am not sure how, if and when coal was actually banned, but there is clean coal and dirty coal. I think that good, high quality, high carbon coal is not much different from coke in its burning qualities.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 09:30:06 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 22, 2020, 08:53:46 pmI also forgot to mention the other thing, "freezing fog". Not only does it coat your windshield with ice, but the road surface may contain patches of black ice too. So any sharp braking to avoid an obstacle you didn't see until too late would result in a skid and a crash. Such fogs generally cause chaos on the roads.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 09:32:26 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 22, 2020, 09:24:08 pmIn the US the term "clean coal" was used by the coal companies to make is sound like "their" coal was clean and environmentally friendly. This was there attempt have people still burn coal and feel good about burning it. Sort of worked initially, but people quickly figured out is was BS.The cleanest coal would be coal comprised of Carbon and Hydrogen. But I think that's what coke almost is.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 09:35:03 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 22, 2020, 09:30:06 pmNever seen freezing fog or really know what it is. The ice patches you can't see on the road we call black ice. Black because the ice is clear and what you see is the black asphalt.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 09:37:59 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 22, 2020, 09:32:26 pmAnthracite is such a clean coal:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AnthraciteQuote

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 09:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 22, 2020, 09:35:03 pmFreezing fog is fog occurring when the air temperature is below freezing. It means the fog consists of ice crystals instead of water droplets, and when the fog settles on the ground it coats the surfaces with ice rather than just making them wet.The safest thing to do is to avoid driving in those weather conditions. The traffic bulletins on the radio will be saying, "If you don't absolutely have to go out, please stay at home. Stay safe, stay off the roads."

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 09:47:40 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 22, 2020, 09:20:01 pmBritain did not have supplies of natural gas until North Sea gas was discovered and developed. Propane and butane were far too expensive for normal household use.Before natural gas, town gas was "coal gas", produced by heating coal in coke ovens. It was a mixture mainly of hydrogen and carbon monoxide, with some other stuff in smaller amounts. It was the origin of the method of suicide by sticking your head in the oven and turning the gas on. The carbon monoxide in the gas would do for you very quickly.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 10:04:19 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 22, 2020, 08:34:27 pmBiggest reason: lack of incentives to use it. Battery storage has that problem as well, plus higher cost.Thermal storage only works for loads that are thermal in nature, but the biggest residential energy uses - HVAC, refrigeration, and hot water - are thermal. The vast majority of electric water heaters are already thermal storage based and just need the addition of a controller to make it useful for demand adapting.Demand adapting is a catch all term for scheduling loads to operate when there's surplus supply. Most likely implemented with some sort of automation.Neither of those will completely replace batteries but they do greatly reduce the battery capacity needed.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 10:12:26 pm
content: Simple demand adaptation could have been implemented decades ago.With a simple tweak to grid frequency the National Grid could encode different 'states' i.e. a frequency of 49.9Hz indicates conservation preferred and 50.1Hz indicates consumption preferred whereas 50Hz would indicate no preference. (All frequencies given as a minutely average with a tolerance of say 0.025Hz.)The same 50Hz balance by the end of the week could still be maintained keeping clocks synchronised but this would now provide information that could be used by devices to optimise their behaviour.For instance: the dishwasher could delay the start of the water heating cycle by up to 15 minutes, just rinsing for longer, if there is a shortage of supply. A fridge could adjust its high set point by 0.5C. An electric vehicle charger could reduce charging power by 50%, if it will still complete within the required time. If there's an oversupply, things go the other way. The dishwasher starts its timed cycle an hour earlier, the fridge cools a bit more, the vehicle starts charging earlier, etc.I recall some industry professionals proposing this idea but sadly it never got implemented. Instead we're looking at complex 'Internet of Things' nonsense in every device, with no grid level integration. And the IoT crap, if it works, almost certainly adds more cost and complexity than the energy savings would net the customer, creating lacklustre demand for these products.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 10:14:11 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 22, 2020, 09:24:08 pmYeah, anthracite was monitored for quality and allowed to be sold, as its of comparable cleanliness to coke. Its not just the sulphur and other junk in the coal that matters. Some coal just doesn't want to burn thoroughly in normal domestic fires and boilers, and a huge amount of soot gets emitted. I think it takes forced air to get them to thoroughly burn, and 1950s/1960s home fires and boilers were entirely passive. Anthracite burns pretty thoroughly in an open fire.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 10:22:21 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 22, 2020, 09:40:19 pmFreezing fog isn't that common in the UK. Frost, on the other hand. is a huge pain throughout the winter. Much of the UK is very humid in the winter, and the temperature can be a little above zero day after day. As it drops below zero each evening the humidity exceeds 100% and the droplets produced freeze, creating a shower of tiny ice particles in a similar way to freezing fog, but without the fog. If you are not parked under cover most winter morning journeys begin with an ice scraping ritual, and if you are one of the first few to drive on a slope it may be super slippery. The upside of frost is it looks incredibly pretty sparkling in the air when you catch it in the light of a street lamp. People raised in climates that don't experience frost are usually fascinated by it.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 10:26:05 pm
content: Until the US government banned anthracite in railway locomotives during WWI, the Erie Lackawanna RR advertised a Miss Phoebe Snow, who could safely wear white clothing “on the road of anthracite”.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 10:29:05 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 22, 2020, 09:47:40 pmYeah, the CNG tanker industry hadn't developed in those days, so you either needed a local supply of natural gas, or you had to generate coal gas. Coal gas production was a local affair. The UK didn't have a national pipe grid for gas until the North Sea gas supply appeared. There used to be coal gas storage domes all over the place, supplying a local network of underground pipes. There are still some old rusty domes around from those days, which have been derelict for that last 40 years. The natural gas grid only needs a small number of modern storage domes to buffer the supply.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 10:29:40 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 22, 2020, 10:22:21 pmI think I have seen freezing fog once in my lifetime. It was skiing at Lake Tahoe. It was a perfectly clear morning, sun was out and the weather conditions must have been just right. As you looked up at the clear blue sky it was as if there was glitter falling. The temperatures must have been just right because as it fell it must have sublimed as it did not reach the ground. It lasted for hours. I was expecting Tinker Bell to appear.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 02:46:46 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 22, 2020, 08:13:27 pmNobody ever adapted demand to get out of an energy crisis. At best it is a temporary and short term measure.What California has now is a lack of investment in energy infrastructure amounting to 10s of billions of dollars. How many nuclear plants is that? And this is the same California which has been paying to tear down dams which might otherwise be suitable for pumped storage and peaking.If you want another example of an unsustainable development in California which they are ignoring, check out the water situation in the central valley where well water is being used for irrigation.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 02:49:46 am
content: There are areas/small towns in the Central Valley where the wells have run dry. Residents have to buy bottled water.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 07:56:43 am
content: here is the California planning document for 2020...http://www.caiso.com/Documents/2020SummerLoadsandResourcesAssessment.pdfCalifornia had >48GW demand in 2006, 2007 and 2017. So they planned based on their models for 45GW peak. But statistics says stage 3 emergency events are very very low. Unfortunately the planet does not read statistics or adhere to computer models...But their own conclusion was pretty spot on (as far as they did point to the risk)Quote

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 10:53:30 am
content: You mean GW, not MWh. 45 MWh is less than the annual consumption of one street. One MWh = 3.6 billion joules, 1 GW = 1 billion Joulesper second. Really chaps, on an electronics forum we ought to be able to get our electrical units right, not out by a factor of 3,600,000.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 12:35:31 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 23, 2020, 10:53:30 amsorry yesit was before the morning coffee...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 12:51:01 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on August 23, 2020, 02:46:46 amThat's not entirely true. Managing the peaks and troughs in demand is always part of an efficient energy supply system. You can get people to move quite a bit of their peak hour consumption to off peak hours, with some financial incentives.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 03:39:12 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 23, 2020, 12:51:01 pmThe financial incentive PG&E is using in California is to charge customers as much as $0.93 kWhr during peaker times. At times PG&E is charging $0.93 kWhr the power company just a mile away is charging $0.14 kWhr. No sure when it is 103 degrees out how a financial incentive will get people to turn of their air conditioners and use them at another time when the rates are lower.Don’t you think it is also unfair for one power company to be charging $0.93 kWhr when a power company that services homes less than a mile away is charging $0.14 kWhr?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 03:56:02 pm
content: Well part of this is down to the poor design of many American homes. Not that you can do much about it now.Homes in contiential Europe can be quite comfortable when the exterior temperature is 30C+ even without air conditioning. It is all down to reflective paint, good insulation, window shades and large amounts of thermal mass in the building materials which keeps them cool in the peak of the day.Of course many of those homes do have AC but they can run at lower power levels.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 04:45:43 pm
content: Poor design? Or a lot less cost to construct? It’s only been in the last 50 years or so that we cared about insulating our homes. Prior to that, the coast to heat and cool homes was far lees than the cost of insulating or energy efficiency.Having traveled to Europe I think it would be fair to so “you” did care much about energy efficiency in the past judging by the size of the fireplaces and the number of large single pane windows. I suspect energy efficiency in construction for the masses came about after WWII especially in Germany where there were shortages. I’m guessing something similar occurred in the UK. Didn’t fuel rationing take place well after the end of the war? But then again fuel prices in Europe have always been much more costly than in the US.In the US we were told nuclear power would produce all the electricity we could use and it would be so inexpensive it wasn’t worth metering.We only began caring about energy efficiency in the 1970s when the gas/energy shortage hit the US? (Not sure if that hit Europe). Over the course of a few months (gas) prices quadrupled and within a year doubled if not almost tripled again.Insulating my house in 2020 is still not cost effective. I received as quote of $7,000 ti insulate my house. If we say we would uses 70% less energy to heat/cool our house it would take 25-30 years to pay for itself.Not sure if this is good or bad, but we installed solar. We typically pay $1,500-$1600 for electricity. Here it is August and we have $1,100 in excess energy credit dollars with the power company AND we powered our house for seven months with the power from the panels. I suspect by the end of the year we will have class to $1,400 in energy credit dollars. The way solar works in California is we have to give all of that unused electricity to the power company for free at the end of the year.Solar is screwing customers in California. Not only are the solar companies over sizing, (higher profits for them). In over sizing the power companies are getting a lot of electricity for free which they can sell at up to $0.93 kWhr.I want a piece of that action. The product I’m selling I get for free.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 05:10:56 pm
content: I have traveled in Northern Europe during hot weather, and was surprised by the lack of window screens in non-air-conditioned hotel rooms. Specifically, I was in Berlin just after the change in government, during the combination of an extreme August hot spell (upper 30s) and a plague of wasps.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 05:22:05 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on August 23, 2020, 05:10:56 pmI was in the UK and Ireland two years ago. Looked just like California. Everything was brown, almost nothing was green. Temperatures were approaching 40 as I recall.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 05:43:30 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 23, 2020, 03:56:02 pmWe are not talking 30C. We are talking >40C. In southern california we are at the same latitude as North Africa.Last time I was in the UK I was not impressed with the coziness of the houses.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 05:46:59 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on August 23, 2020, 05:10:56 pmFor whatever reason, insect screens have never been a thing in Britain, and presumably Europe in general. I can remember my surprise when first visiting America and seeing, "Oh, they have mesh screens on the outside of windows! How cool!"One reason may be that traditional window designs open outwards (don't slide), and so screens would get in the way. Screens would also spoil the appearance of the window (windows are more architectural in Europe, more utilitarian in North America). And to be honest, the occasional wasp or fly getting in during the day, or moth getting in during the evening, is notthatbig of a nuisance. You just learn to live with it.Probably the worst is in the autumn when the crane flies (daddy long-legs) are about. Those things freak people out.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 05:59:36 pm
content: Or was it because of DDT? DDT was heavily used on all continents with the exception of Africa and Antarctica.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 06:19:13 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 23, 2020, 03:56:02 pmContinental Europe is mostly quite cool, with only burst of excessive heat on some summer days. Spain being a major exception. Many parts of the world, including quite a lot of the US, are over 30C during the day and only slightly cooler over night, This is repeated day after day, so no amount of thermal mass will help very much. Double glazing can be a disadvantage, just trapping more heat. In these places homes can only be kept comfortable with some kind of cooling system. In dryer places, with good water supplies, evaporative cooling can work really well. For others only a heat pump with do.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 06:26:39 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 23, 2020, 12:51:01 pmHmm yes for a while.. Like SmartMeter displays - after a while people don't care unless they get notified. And if they get too many notifications they start ignoring them as well.If it was not for humansSmartMeters and "behaviour change" would work. It is possible to change behaviour but not very easy when discomfort is involved. We learned to turn off lights in the 70's... that has stuck with me but for many in this generation it is "lost" again.The only real reason for SmartMeters is to control brown-outs. Nothing else. So I think we will soon have "priority energy" where if you pay enough you are certain to get energy while your neighbour is "brown-out'ed" - or if you are in a low income area - your area will be last to get power back.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 06:28:58 pm
content: Quote from: kaz911 on August 23, 2020, 06:26:39 pmBehaviour fades to maximal laziness very quickly. However, things like water heaters being set to heat storage tanks overnight persists.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 06:42:48 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 23, 2020, 06:28:58 pmWhat is you spend $3,500 to have a nice new "energy savings" on demand water heater installed? (Turns out they don't really save any energy.)Water heaters here are gas as are most of our appliances. Cost for electricity is far more expensive.The energy hogs are air conditioning and pool pumps. Doesn't do much good to run the air conditioner at night to save energy when it's 103/40 during the day. Can't do it with the pool pump either as almost everyone has solar thermal heating for the pool. Run the pool pump at night and it cools the pool. Can't time shift this either.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 06:48:46 pm
content: Quote from: ahbushnell on August 23, 2020, 05:43:30 pmOut of interest, London has a more Northerly latitude than Calgary. The same ocean circulation that gives southern California its cold Pacific current gives the UK its warm Atlantic current.If that gets messed up, we're all in the sh*t(Edit: OT).

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 06:50:22 pm
content: Is Italy, Former Yugoslavia and Greece considered part of Northern Europe?

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 06:52:04 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 22, 2020, 09:16:18 pmMy parents moved to a new build house in 1971, which had (natural) gas fired warm air central heating. That was the first time we ever had central heating. Previously, we lived in a house built in 1955 which had a coke-burning stove in the living room, an 'Ascot' instant water heater running on coal gas, and an electric heater in the bathroom. As a small child, my bedroom had no heating, and the whole house had steel-framed, single-glazed windows. Later, my parents installed a couple of electric night storage heaters, which were pretty useless really.My father sold that house a few years ago, moving to live closer to me. The strange thing was, the lady who bought the (1971) house, was moving out of our old 1955 house, more than forty years after we did! Even the estate agent had never heard of anything like it. This is in the suburbs of a large city, not a small, isolated community.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 06:56:08 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on August 23, 2020, 06:52:04 pmNice story.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 07:12:01 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on August 23, 2020, 06:48:46 pmAt the same latitude as London, Canada has polar bears. Southern Gernany gets colder than northern Germany. Isn't the Gulf Stream wonderful?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 07:14:23 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 23, 2020, 05:59:36 pmI don't think it is possible to generalize that much. Mosquitoes in England are a localized problem, and in areas where there are mosquito populations, mosquito control measures are in place. But in most areas you won't see any mosquitoes unless you go looking for them near rivers, lakes or marshland. In the normal way you can sit outside in the evening without any trouble. Pubs routinely have beer gardens where sitting outside on a summer evening is quite free of any insect troubles. Europe just doesn't have swarms of annoying insects in developed areas. This is similar to where I live in California. It's a desert, and there are basically no flying insects to be concerned with.Contrast this with my experience of the eastern USA, such as when I visited New Jersey a few times. It seemed like you couldn't sit outside after sunset without being eaten alive.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 07:17:32 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on August 23, 2020, 06:52:04 pmUntil North Sea natural gas came ashore few UK homes heated anything but the lounge. It was beyond the financial resources of anyone on an average income. The kitchen would get some heat from cooking. That was it. Every winter morning was absolute misery, getting up washing and dressing in rooms around zero degrees. The odd thing is houses going back to Victorian times had a large chimney breast and fireplace in many of the bedrooms, which was never ever used, but took up a considerable amount of floor space. Many of those fires wouldn't even have been safe to use, as the bed would have been too close.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 07:19:33 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 23, 2020, 06:50:22 pmThat really depends on your political leaning....It is kind of fluent.But no.. Northern Europe is the Europe above Germany but sometimes includes the UK.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 07:25:39 pm
content: Quote from: kaz911 on August 23, 2020, 07:19:33 pmI've been to Italy, Former Yugoslavia and Greece in the summer and it's as hot Spain. Someone posted saying Northern Europe gets hot in the Summer? I would think it doesn't get as hot as Greece. But maybe I'm wrong.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 07:35:31 pm
content: I posted that it got hot in Berlin when I traveled there one August (above normal), but there were no window screens and there was a plague of wasps. Berlin is farther north than anywhere in the continental US. (52.5 N vs 49 N for the Canadian border)

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 07:36:25 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 23, 2020, 07:14:23 pmTake at the Wiki on the use of DDT and the anti-malaria campaign of the 1950s and 1960s. It's my understanding deaths for malaria before the use of DDT were on all contents. DDT virtually eliminated deaths and was considered the miracle chemical. The use of DDT nearly eliminated deaths from malaria North America Europe.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 07:43:42 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 23, 2020, 07:25:39 pmItaly, Yugoslavia, Greece and Spain - are all around the Mediterranean sea. That impacts weather a lot. The Med is really just a huge bathtub - with a tiny outlet between Gibraltar and Morocco.I have driven from Switzerland to Italy over the hill (Mountain) - and in Switzerland it was about 20c - on top of the mountain it was snowing (summer) and we had snowball fight - and driving down to Italy we got to 31-32c.So high temperatures in countries around the Med is very dependent on the water temperature of the Med - and its heat impacts land areas far into the countries.But London Heat max over the last 34c to 37c - hottest was last year over the 5 years I've lived here. But London is 1-2-3 deg c above most of the UK temperature wise due to heat island effect. But we usually only have a week or two with temperatures in that range.Next week I'm moving south to the coast - and despite having more sunlight hours it is a LOT colder...

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 07:55:55 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 23, 2020, 06:42:48 pmWhat you can do is run the A/C more before peak in order to run it less during the peak. (What that actually will do is make the peak longer but lower.) Then there's ice based thermal storage to allow even more reduction in peak usage.If it's triple digits outside, the pool probably doesn't need any heating.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 08:15:59 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 23, 2020, 07:55:55 pmMy grandfather told me about ice cooling. Every week or so he would lug a 50 pound block of ice up 3 flights of stairs and put it into a box called an icebox. I think we would call it a refrigerator today. Then at the end of the week there was 50 pounds of water he would have to dispose of. My refrigerator costs about $1.00 a day to power. i would gladly pay $30 per month not to deal with blocks for ice and spilling 6 gallons of water.Not sure how ice thermal storage would be practical today. Even 100 years ago people were finding it wasn't practical and that an electrical powered appliance was the way to do it.Pool water still needs to be circulated to prevent algae from growing.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 08:29:25 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 23, 2020, 08:15:59 pmYou regenerate the ice in place, not try to transport it.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 08:40:38 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 23, 2020, 08:29:25 pmYou do know this young scientist doesn't know what he's talking about, right? What he is doing is NOT air conditioning.I hope you know the difference between air conditioning and cooling air. They are NOT the same thing.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 09:25:27 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 23, 2020, 08:40:38 pmThe cooling and dehumidification part of air conditioning is what most people think air conditioning is, which also happens to use most of the energy and why ice storage works well to reduce the peak demand. What remains is cleaning the air, done with a filter as is usually the case. It can also optionally include UV light for sanitation and heat exchangers for exchanging air with the outdoors, neither of which are particularly energy intensive.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 09:31:18 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 23, 2020, 07:36:25 pmYes, but malaria had receded in Britain long before the introduction and use of DDT. Malaria was never widespread in any case, being confined to certain geographical areas, but it had mostly disappeared by the time of the industrial revolution. The disappearance of malaria is mostly attributed to social and economic factors, draining of marshlands, different farming patterns, and movement of populations to towards cities. Britain's climate is overall too cool for malaria to take hold today.When you read about the use of DDT in Europe, it refers to southern regions of Europe, not northern latitudes where Britain is. Malaria is a tropical disease and Britain's climate is anything other than "tropical".

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 09:36:24 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 23, 2020, 08:40:38 pmIn what sense are they not the same thing?If you cool air then excess humidity condenses out, leaving cooler and drier "conditioned" air to be recirculated. With maybe some dust filtration included, which is optional.How you cool air to condition it is up to you. Ice is just as viable a cold surface as a heat exchanger where cooling is concerned.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 10:03:43 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 23, 2020, 09:36:24 pmThere's a reason why it's called Air Conditioning and not air cooling. Air conditioning removing heat AND moisture from the cooled air.Any idea what happens if the air is cooled and moisture is NOT removed?There's a good reason why the moisture is removed.What the kid did in the video a heat transfer or heat exchanger.What the kid is doing is kind of stupid. Why doesn't he place the block of ice in his room and blow a fan across the top? That's what's people have been doing for 100 years. Would be more energy efficient as well.What about USB powered Air Conditioners that are popular right now? They claim they can cool a room and work outside as well.I hope you realize they don't work and it's a complete scam.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 10:29:13 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 23, 2020, 10:03:43 pmWhat I'm trying to say is that cooling and condensation of moisture occur together. You cannot cool air without the moisture being removed at the same time. If you cool air below its saturation point then excess moisture condenses out. If you don't collect the condensation then you end up blowing a fog out of the machine. Electric air conditioners have a condensation tray and drain pipe to channel the condensed water away. There is no reason an ice-cooled machine cannot do the same thing. A/C units do not have a special "conditioning" step separate from the cooling, they just cool the air and let physics do the rest.There is a very sensible idea in that video, which is that you could use electricity at night when demand is low to freeze water into ice and accumulate a store of "cold". Then you could use the ice during the day to release the "cold" and cool the air in the house without using electricity in high demand periods. It is a method of energy storage and demand shifting.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2020, 10:33:37 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 23, 2020, 10:03:43 pmYou get arrested for breaking the laws of thermodynamics and the gas laws?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2020, 03:19:27 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 23, 2020, 10:33:37 pmOr you live in a dry climate & evaporative aircoolers work there!Adding moisture by evaporation increases moisture in the air, so no laws are broken.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2020, 06:18:47 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on August 24, 2020, 03:19:27 amWhile you might not be blacking the laws of physics you most certainly are violating English law. Adding moisture is not air conditioning but evaporative cooling.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2020, 06:29:59 am
content: Quote from: ahbushnell on August 23, 2020, 05:43:30 pmUK homes are tiny, and really not designed for anything >30C with their poor insulation and lack of window shading and paint. They really struggle in those temperatures. Hence why British people go outside when it is sunny, it is almost a ritual. But in the middle of a global pandemic...This is going to be a real issue in another decade or two as these summer days will go from 'uncommon' to 'regular occurrence'.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2020, 10:54:38 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 24, 2020, 06:18:47 amIt's illegal to use evaporative cooling in the UK? Why?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2020, 06:01:16 pm
content: Quote from: ahbushnell on August 24, 2020, 10:54:38 amI was trying to come up wiht a cute response. As I re-read my post I realize it's unclear.Let me try again.While you might not be breaking the laws of physics you most certainly are violating the laws of the English language.What the kid is doing in the video is cooling the air which is the opposite heating. What the kid is NOT doing is conditioning the air. An air conditioner "conditions the air by removing moisture and cooling the air.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2020, 07:51:28 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 24, 2020, 06:01:16 pmAnd if I try again: cooling the air and removing moisture are coupled. One is a consequence of the other. To remove moisture from the air you have to cool it. If you cool the air below its saturation point you automatically remove moisture from it. You cannot cool the air below the saturation point without removing the moisture; to do so would be akin to over-unity. It breaks the laws of physics.If you take apart a domestic A/C unit, you will not find any part of it which removes moisture from the air before or after cooling it. There is simply no such device. All you will find is a cooling unit similar to the one found in a refrigerator. The air passes over the cold surface of the cooler, excess moisture is condensed, and it drains away.If you replace the cold surface cooled by refrigerant with a cold surface cooled by ice, the result will be exactly the same.Consequently, "A/C unit" is synonymous with "air cooling unit". The "conditioning" part is a bogus word introduced by marketing folks to make it sound more clever than it is.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2020, 08:09:39 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 24, 2020, 07:51:28 pmThis is not strictly true. An absorption dehumidifier removes moisture from the air and all it contains is a heating unit.Quote from: IanB on August 24, 2020, 07:51:28 pmThere is a concept in chemistry called the "super-saturated" solution. You can cool a mixture below its saturation point without the mixture separating, it has to do with activation energies and nucleation sites.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2020, 08:12:53 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 24, 2020, 07:51:28 pmI do understand ideal gas laws, PV=NrT. We can't break the law as many people on Youtube say they can do. I'm not an AC guy, but I was taught air conditioning and air cooling are not the same. It's more than a marketing term. A swamp cooler also cools the air, but it does so by adding moisture. So even though a swap cooler cools the air I've never heard of it being refereed to as a swamp cooler. Would you consider a dehumidifier as an air cooler or an air conditioner?I understand what you are saying.... Let me give it some thought. I am in agreement with just about everything you are saying. And I hope other can add to our discussion. I very much appreciate you challenging me on this. I might be wrong.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2020, 09:11:05 pm
content: Quote from: helius on August 24, 2020, 08:09:39 pmDo you know of any domestic A/C units that contain an absorption dehumidifier?QuoteI know that, of course. But it that is not relevant to the current thread.Are you trying to add useful information here, or are you just being pedantic and picking holes?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2020, 09:19:28 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 24, 2020, 08:12:53 pmThere is a simple experiment you can try. If you have a cocktail shaker, or any similar container, fill it with some water and some ice and shake it vigorously. You will observe how the outside of the container quickly becomes wet with condensation, and if you leave it a while it will form a puddle of water. This illustrates how when warm air comes into contact with the cold surface it drops below its saturation point on a humidity chart and excess humidity condenses out.You can see by extension that bringing humid air into contact with any cold surface to cool it down will automatically dehumidify it. As seen from the cocktail shaker experiment, it works just the same if the cooling is done by ice as if the cooling is done with a refrigeration circuit.This is quite different from a swamp cooler, which works by adding moisture to the air rather than removing it. Swamp coolers are only convenient in dry climates where the added humidity might increase the comfort level.QuoteA typical dehumidifier works by bringing air in contact with a cold surface just like an air conditioner to condense out water and reduce the humidity. The difference compared to an A/C unit is that a dehumidifier heats up the room instead of cooling it. To cool a room you have to extract heat from the air and dump it outside (move heat from A to B). A dehumidifier has no way to remove the heat outside the room, and in fact the power it uses remains inside the room. So a dehumidifier is actually a space heater. (Similar to how if you leave a freezer in the middle of the room with the door open, it is also a space heater.)

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2020, 11:28:16 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 24, 2020, 09:19:28 pmNot sure if you know this, but depending on where you live, toilets are connected to the hot water supply line. Why? When filled with cold water the water will condenses on the outside of the tank and will make a puddle of water on the floor. (Provided the conditions are just right. The colder water on the inside will make water condense on the outside of the tank condense and make a puddles on the floor.I have given this some thought and done a bit more research. I agree with you that an air conditioner passively dries out the air. In looking into this a bit more I now know why it's called an air conditioner and not an air cooler. Air conditioners recycle the air meaning it's a "closed" system. Each time the air passes through the air conditioner it removes a little bit more of the moisture. An air cooler uses the same hardware except it's an open system and draws in fresh air.A refrigerator, air cooler, air conditioner, freezer and a dehumidifier are all in principal the device. They all remove heat energy from the air cooling it. The application difference is if the system is open or closed and where the heat energy is transferred to.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2020, 11:34:51 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 24, 2020, 11:28:16 pmI think "inevitably" might be clearer the "passively". Cool the air enough and moisture condenses out. This does assume the air is quite moist. Try it in Pheonix and you get no water. A dehumidifier is just an air con with the cold radiator right behind the hot radiator, and a flow rate adjusted to maximise the amount of removed water. If you use a dehumidifier in a hot humid room, you can typically avoid the need for an air conditioner. Simply drying out the air can make the place very comfortable. So, the dehumidifying effect of an air con is a huge benefit, greatly reducing the amount of temperature reduction you need to achieve.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2020, 11:57:05 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 24, 2020, 11:28:16 pmGood point about the closed system and recycling. I have experienced this only today, in fact. When I got up this morning the room temperature was 76 degrees but felt unbearably sticky. After running my home A/C for a few hours during the morning the room temperature was eventually 78 degrees by the middle of the day but felt much more comfortable. (If you are puzzled by the changing temperatures, it is because I was adjusting the thermostat according to my comfort level.)

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2020, 11:58:31 pm
content: Are you trying to tell me the Fontus self-filling water bottle that raised $330,435 would never work?just like the free water from the air WaterSeer?But WaterSeer was supposed to provide free water to everyone in the desert.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 12:13:45 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 24, 2020, 11:57:05 pmThanks for making me think about this one.No this guy made a home made true air conditioner. The kid made an air cooler in the form of a heat exchange.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 12:56:39 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 24, 2020, 09:11:05 pmI probably could have been more forceful in arguing my point instead of leaving it up to interpretation.I disagree strongly that "air conditioning" is a "bogus" concept "introduced by marketing": it's one of the most significant inventions in human history and control over both temperature and humidity is central to its value. The humidity aspect is not "automatic" as you seem to imply: measures to explicitly control humidity are required in many cases, especially in industry. A modern central A/C system has sensors for both temperature and humidity and a specific de-humidification cycle control that is different from a cooling program. No, there is not a single mechanical part that you can point to and say, "see, this is only for drying", but the whole system will be designed to effect that. Mature industries settle on designs that are optimized by having every part perform multiple chores, as in a vehicle steering rack that both converts radial to linear motion and multiplies forces, or a torque converter that replaces both a clutch and gearbox.Quote from: IanB on August 24, 2020, 09:11:05 pmNow you're just moving goalposts... remember when you said, "To remove moisture from the air you have to cool it"? Well, not necessarily, and the fact such appliances are not only possible, but presently used should be a clue that humidity control is not simply a "side benefit" of refrigeration. "Air conditioning" was coined by analogy to "water conditioning": a modification of the environment to achieve better industrial process control. Humidity can be even more important than temperature when processing wood products, to take one example.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 01:39:46 am
content: Quote from: helius on August 25, 2020, 12:56:39 amNot really. I was just trying to keep within the context and the level of discussion appropriate to this thread and not over complicate matters.I am a process engineer, and I know everything you wrote is true. I am aware of all the kinds of systems you can find in industrial contexts, how they work, and how they are controlled. I know how to design industrial plants of many different kinds. I could get into details far outside the domain of an EE forum.But in this thread, the discussion was about the typical cooling systems you can find in an average home (and perhaps automobile), prompted by a YouTube video. Such systems consist of a refrigeration loop and a heat exchanger over which room air is passed to cool it down. A side effect of cooling it down is that water may be condensed, which is collected and piped outside to a drain. This is the limit of what is found in domestic situations, beyond advances in variable speed compressors with inverter drivers and clever thermostats.If I keep things simple, it doesn't mean I don't know about other things, it just means I am putting them aside to keep the discussion on point.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 02:04:49 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 25, 2020, 01:39:46 amLets get back on topic. My original claim was the kid in the video is claiming "Experiment: Air Conditioning with Ice. Am saying this is wrong, it's NOT air conditioning at all. The kid is NOT conditioning the air at all. He's cooling it using heat exchangers.My point being just because he has a contraption which cools the air that doesn't mean it's an air conditioner.Not sure if this is happening in the UK, but here in the US kids are using terms which have specific meanings in a broad sense. In my mind the kind calling his device and air conditioner would be a kin to saying diesel is the same as gasoline. While they are both petrochemicals they are not the same thing. Here in the US using terms loosely like this is how conspiracy theorists are suckering people into believe their garbage.Just look at the two fund raising self filling water bottles I posted. Dave even reviewed one calling it complete BS. Yet between the two companies they raised over half a million dollars. How? By breaking the laws of thermodynamics.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 02:40:41 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 25, 2020, 02:04:49 amWell, OK, but your home A/C unit is a heat exchanger through which air is passed to cool it down.People loosely cool this an air conditioner, when in fact it is just a heat exchanger, a fan, some ducting, and a thermostat. We could go off on a tangent about what an industrial scale air conditioning (HVAC) system might look like in a large office tower, but that is not what you will find in your home.So given that your home system has a heat exchanger to cool the air, I am not sure why think think the kid with a heat exchanger to cool the air is using terms incorrectly? People often use terms loosely in every day situations that may not match with precise technical usage. Ask anyone what the cold air box on their wall is called and they will say it is an A/C unit.Similarly, I am quite sure that self-filling water bottlescouldwork, even if too slowly, and at too great an energy cost to be practical. It doesn't break any laws of thermodynamics, but it may break several laws of economics (engineering is all about economics, after all).

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 03:51:46 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 25, 2020, 02:40:41 amNo. Or at least no in the US. The AC units in people's homes are part of a closed system. Outside air is not drawn in and cooled. The air is being recirculated and conditioned. Doesn't mater if it's an entire house system, or one that is placed in a windows.Quote from: IanB on August 25, 2020, 02:40:41 amAgain no no no. Home systems ARE more than just heat eachangers. They don't just blow out cool air like in the kids video. They condition the air. One can control the humidity in addition to the temperature. The kid can't control the humidity, which is why it's not an air conditioner.Quote from: IanB on August 25, 2020, 02:40:41 amGuess you didn't watch the videos on the self filling water bottles. The one that mounts in the ground which is suppose to supply an "endless" supply of water would fail right away as the ground temperature equalizes.One has to ask..... How could those people raised half a million dollars on a device that anyone who has taken a physics/chemistry thermodynamics dynamic course would know would not work. Are the people making the item that "dumb"? Or are they really smart and are scamming everyone?Very impressive the amount of money they pulled in.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 04:39:22 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 25, 2020, 03:51:46 amNow, look. Your home system has a heat exchanger through which air is passed to cool it down. I didn't say anything about "outside air being drawn in", so disputing something I didn't say is not helpful.You are right, air in your home goes round and round, through the inlet duct, through the the heat exchanger to cool it, and back out again.Quote from: DougSpindler on August 25, 2020, 03:51:46 amI know my home doesn't have a humidity control, it just has a thermostat on the wall. If I go to Home Depot and look on the shelf, all I see are standard thermostats. I don't see humidity controls.Can you give a reference or a link to what you mean when you say, "one can control the humidity in addition to the temperature"? We have discussed above how AC units do reduce humidity as a side effect of cooling, but that is all it is, an incidental benefit.It seems we are undoing so much work from the earlier part of this thread. Why the sudden reversal?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 05:23:03 am
content: Well as someone else pointed out Air Conditioners have cycles which can control humidity. An air cooler does can not control humidity as the air is not conditioned.I think we have beaten this to death, but here's ample proof air conditioners "condition" the air by cooling it and controlling humidity. While your AC unit might not, there AC units and controller which do. I'm not sure, but I suspect all of the indoor crop farmers in California have air conditioners which regulate temperature, humidity and CO2 levels.Take a look.The AC-Dehumidifier Combo- What is it, & why Bother?Both anAC, and a dehumidifier, are employed by people to get the same result; Proper airflow in the home. However, installing, and maintaining both of these items can be a hard task. However, there is a solution to this problem: anAC-dehumidifier combo.The portable Ac and dehumidifier combo is a combination of both these devices.This device can perform the functions of both individual devices.It can be used to remove excess humidity from the air while keeping the room temperature at a crisp level. With this in your possession,you can tackle various situations with ease.https://www.evaporativehumidifiers.com/best-air-conditioner-dehumidifier-combo/Here's a link for a thermostatTemperature Humidity Controlleryou weren't able to find.https://www.amazon.com/diymore-Thermostat-Temperature-Thermometer-Multifunction/dp/B07HB1F7N6/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=AC%2BControler%2Bwith%2Bhumidity&qid=1598330903&sr=8-5&th=1And a link for an AC company if Florida.How Air Conditioners Lower HumidityMost modern HVAC systems are capable of regulating humidity.https://www.davidgrayheatingandair.com/articles/how-do-air-conditioners-remove-humidityEvery heard of Bob Vila? Of This Old House Fame?With air conditioning being one of the biggest household energy hogs in summer, humidity can influence your monthly utility bills more than you might think. It’s simple: Because air-conditioned homes with lower humidity feel cooler, you can set the thermostat several degrees higher and still achieve comfort. Each one-degree increase in the target temperature translates to a three percent reduction in energy use. So with the Unico System, thanks to its exceptionalhumidity control, you can trim costs a little bit every hour, every day.While conventional air conditioning can cool your home on even the hottest days, only systems like Unico are equally effective against both high temperatures and high humidity levels.That’s important, because after all, “It’s not the heat, it’s the humidity.”If you’re relying on technology capable of managing one but not the other, then, unless you live in a particularly dry climate, you’ll have to spend a fortune on utility billsto feel fully at ease in your home during the dog days of summer.https://www.bobvila.com/articles/control-humidity-and-lower-your-ac-bills/#:~:text=It's%20simple%3A%20Because%20air%2Dconditioned,percent%20reduction%20in%20energy%20use.Air conditioners remove moisture from the air as a by-product of cooling,and it’s a normal practice to use an air conditioner to dehumidifythe space as well as cool it.https://www.contractingbusiness.com/iaq-ventilation/article/20862142/humidity-control-knowledge-is-power#:~:text=High%20indoor%20humidity%20is%20often,an%20air%20conditioner's%20primary%20function.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 05:55:37 am
content: I have a "multi" air conditioner/heat pump for my office.1. It works as normal AC/Heat Pump2. It can draw in fresh air from outside3. It can humidify or dehumidifyIt is the Daikin Ururu Sarara (a bit of a mouthful) but works ok - and keeps office nice andcomfortablewithout drying me out like a prune.https://www.daikin.eu/en_us/product-group/air-to-air-heat-pumps/ururu-sarara.html

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 01:05:36 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 25, 2020, 05:23:03 amDoug, repeating the same assertion again and again is not going to make it right.You will only find humiditycontrolin large fixed air conditioning plants. You won't find it in portable 'air conditioners' or window fitting 'air conditioners' or even in the split system 'air conditioners' that you will find in some homes and small offices. People, including HVAC engineers, nevertheless still call these units 'air conditioners'. With all these small to medium sized systems the humidity of the air isuncontrolled. They remove both latent andsensible heatfrom the air.Large fixed HVAC plantsmaycontain provisions forcontrollingthe humidity of the air processed (but most often don't). This is done by having a separate humidifier to add moisture to the air when warranted. To remove humidity from the air without overcooling it, cooled air (cooled as above with a reduction in absolute humidity) is reheated after having been cooled to condense water vapour from it; ideally using waste heat from the refrigeration cycle. At the extreme these systems can change the humidity of air without altering the air temperature by adding or removing justlatentheat from the air. Actual humiditycontrolis expensive, both in terms of plant and of energy usage and is usually only done where requirements warrant the expense - archives, some laboratories, calibration labs, clean rooms for semiconductor manufacture, pampered billionaires and so on.Fortunately physics favours us in that most often we want to take hot wet air and convert it into cooler drier air without any particular control over relative humidity and to do this simply requires refrigeration.Most "air conditioners" are simple reverseCarnot cycleheat pumps. They 'condition' the air by cooling it, nothing more. Cooling air to below thedew pointof that air will cause water vapour to condense from the air, leaving liquid water or frost depending on the evaporation temperature of the refrigerant evaporator. That cold air will have arelative humidityof close to 100% at the air's exit temperature from the air conditioner but its absolute humidity will be lower than that of the room air. Mixing this cold wet air with warm room air will produce a final mixture of air in the room that is overall colder and drier (both inabsolute humidityandrelative humidity) than it was before. This is notcontrolled, it is just an inevitable effect of cooling the air.By your assertion anything that doesn't have, at a minimum, an air chiller, a humidifier, a heater, a suitable control system and take up a whole plant room isn't an "air conditioner" - most people would disagree with you. You might be 'right', in the most narrow, 'autistic engineer', kind of way, but in terms of the common usage of 'air conditioner' as used by most people and by professionals in the HVAC field you're not.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 03:12:02 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 24, 2020, 07:51:28 pmIn dry climates evaporative cooling systems do not remove moisture.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 03:55:13 pm
content: My portable AC can act as a dehumidifier.Simply set it to the 'Dry' mode and disconnect the vent hose. The room warms instead of cools (all waste heat is recycled back into the room) and water condenses into the waste tank attached to the waste hose. An internal RH sensor allows it to regulate humidity instead of temperature.This may not be an option for all AC systems, but some of them do support it.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 04:16:50 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 25, 2020, 03:55:13 pmThat's an interesting dual use application. Of course, since it is also a room heater was well as a dehumidifier it is going to be most useful for drying out damp rooms where the additional heat would be useful for evaporating moisture?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 06:01:08 pm
content: Fellow posters we are asking a simple question. What does an air conditioner do? Is it the opposite of a heater? In that it cools the air? Or does an air conditioner "condition" the air? As in control the air temperature and humidity?There was a post to a video where a "young experimenter" placed a coil of copper tubing in a bucket or ice water. He connected it to a pump and ran the tubing to his room where he had a fan blowing room air through the radiator. He called it an "air conditioner".I am of the opinion that is NOT an air conditioner as it not conditioning the air. What the kid created was the air cooler or the opposite of a heater.Others in the thread are saying I'm wrong and that an "air conditioner" is just a marketing term for something that cools the air.So here's the question.... Is a device that cools the air an "air conditioner? Or does an air conditioner not only cool the air, but also controls or regulates humidity beyond the ideal gas law, PV=nRT?

author: george.b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 06:05:53 pm
content: Quote from: f4eru on August 20, 2020, 06:58:27 pmAnd then the grid will run on what, the power of love?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 06:19:57 pm
content: Quote from: george.b on August 25, 2020, 06:05:53 pmNo don't be ridiculous it can be powered with free energy, over unity with a dash of perpetual motion. We know it can be done. There are thousands of videos on the Internet made by people who know nothing about science who have proved it can be done.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 06:33:32 pm
content: Thought experiment: go to Home Depot and look at the section labeled "Air Conditioners". All of these units will cool air, and condense water out of the atmosphere, diverting the condensate to a drain. How many of them have any control or servo to control the humidity of the cold air output?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 06:37:01 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on August 25, 2020, 06:33:32 pmThere are at least 5.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 06:57:31 pm
content: There is a certain amount of fuzziness between what the headline claims may say, and what the detailed operating instructions say.For example, the Honeywell HL Series of portable units.The feature list on the Home Depot web site says:QuoteHowever, the operating manual says this:QuoteOne always has to be careful about claims when people are trying to sell you something.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 07:10:46 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 25, 2020, 06:57:31 pmDoesn't seem to be working on Kickstarter. Just look at all of the claims Dave and Thnuderf00t has debunked. Solar roadways anyone? Personal air conditioners which work inside as well as outside. I think the clear winner is Theranos and Elizabeth Holmes.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 09:17:07 pm
content: Five out of how many models?Of course, building HVAC systems often include controlled humidity, but my home central air conditioner unit does not.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2020, 12:27:07 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on August 25, 2020, 09:17:07 pmFive out of five, that would be 100%.So what's the difference between air conditioning and air cooling?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2020, 12:58:22 am
content: Looking at the first few units listed in Home Depot’s “air conditioner” page, some of them have a “dehumidify” mode, but very few have a humidistat. All of them will condense water out of the air. All of them have a thermostat (not necessarily calibrated).

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2020, 02:01:17 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on August 26, 2020, 12:58:22 amHome Depot is just one data point.Is there a difference between air conditioning and an air cooler?What is we look beyond HomeDeppot? I can find air conditioners which control humidity. Could it be the air conditioners HomeDepot only have one setting that's fixed for humidity?The AC-Dehumidifier Combo- What is it, & why Bother?Both an AC, and a dehumidifier, are employed by people to get the same result; Proper airflow in the home. However, installing, and maintaining both of these items can be a hard task. However, there is a solution to this problem: an AC-dehumidifier combo.The portable Ac and dehumidifier combo is a combination of both these devices.This device can perform the functions of both individual devices. It can be used to remove excess humidity from the air while keeping the room temperature at a crisp level. With this in your possession, you can tackle various situations with ease.https://www.evaporativehumidifiers.com/best-air-conditioner-dehumidifier-combo/Here's a link for a thermostat Temperature Humidity Controller you weren't able to find.https://www.amazon.com/diymore-Thermostat-Temperature-Thermometer-Multifunction/dp/B07HB1F7N6/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=AC%2BControler%2Bwith%2Bhumidity&qid=1598330903&sr=8-5&th=1And a link for an AC company if Florida.How Air Conditioners Lower HumidityMost modern HVAC systems are capable of regulating humidity.https://www.davidgrayheatingandair.com/articles/how-do-air-conditioners-remove-humidityEvery heard of Bob Vila? Of This Old House Fame?With air conditioning being one of the biggest household energy hogs in summer, humidity can influence your monthly utility bills more than you might think. It’s simple: Because air-conditioned homes with lower humidity feel cooler, you can set the thermostat several degrees higher and still achieve comfort. Each one-degree increase in the target temperature translates to a three percent reduction in energy use. So with the Unico System, thanks to its exceptional humidity control, you can trim costs a little bit every hour, every day.While conventional air conditioning can cool your home on even the hottest days, only systems like Unico are equally effective against both high temperatures and high humidity levels. That’s important, because after all, “It’s not the heat, it’s the humidity.” If you’re relying on technology capable of managing one but not the other, then, unless you live in a particularly dry climate, you’ll have to spend a fortune on utility bills to feel fully at ease in your home during the dog days of summer.https://www.bobvila.com/articles/control-humidity-and-lower-your-ac-bills/#:~:text=It's%20simple%3A%20Because%20air%2Dconditioned,percent%20reduction%20in%20energy%20use.Air conditioners remove moisture from the air as a by-product of cooling, and it’s a normal practice to use an air conditioner to dehumidify the space as well as cool it.https://www.contractingbusiness.com/iaq-ventilation/article/20862142/humidity-control-knowledge-is-power#:~:text=High%20indoor%20humidity%20is%20often,an%20air%20conditioner's%20primary%20function.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2020, 02:58:08 am
content: Yes, systems sold as "air conditioners" remove humidity from the cooled air.Yes, some such systems have a humidistat to regulate the humidity.However, many systems by that name do not have a humidistat.Air conditioning was introduced into movie theaters in 1925 by Carrier, and the rest is history.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2020, 04:24:12 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on August 26, 2020, 02:58:08 amWhy did Carrier call in an air conditioner and not a air cooler? If a heater heats the air, shouldn’t an air cooler call the air? So why do they call in an air conditioner? What would the opposite of an air conditioner?

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2020, 04:34:41 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 26, 2020, 04:24:12 amIn New Zealand the same device is called a heat pump. We generally use them in heat mode here and not as coolers. When heating the air there is no moisture removed from the air obviously, although the heating does reduce the RH. AC is just a name imho.The dehumidify setting on the heat pump/ac is pretty useless. It just cycles between cooling and heating the room within a narrow temperature range. Better off with a dessicant type dehumidifier in a cool climate like ours.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2020, 04:53:51 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on August 26, 2020, 04:34:41 amWe have heat pumps is some parts of the US. There are some parts of the US where heat pumps are ineffective.In NZ is an air conditioner used as a marketing term for a device which cools the air? Or do you call that an air cooler because an air conditioner does more than cool the air, it “conditions” it?

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2020, 05:36:22 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 26, 2020, 04:53:51 amThe label on the remote in my lounge says "air conditioner". But we call it a heat pump.If it is too hot in summer, then I hit the cool mode button. No conditioning of the air, it just dumps moisture out when the RH hits 100%.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2020, 01:19:23 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 25, 2020, 04:16:50 pmAs far as I know, this is pretty common with AC units. The compressor is only 400-500W rated, so the power dissipated into the room isn't that high, but I suppose the heat probably helps as well for removing damp.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2020, 06:58:14 pm
content: You need to be careful with your assumptions there. Yes, the input energy will be dissipated into the room but condensing water will release latent heat as sensible heat too, to the tune of 2.256 kJ for every kg of water condensed, plus more for the heat released by cooling the water vapour down to its condensing temperature.