Safety question about the beryllium oxide thermal compound - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: kitendo1999
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 12:33:07 pm
content: Hey,I was working on my beomaster 5000, Beovision Mx4000 and beovision lx4500 a few weeks ago, but lefted them asside for a few weeks because they made me a bit scared. I became sceptic about the thermal pastes those were present in these devices and was wondering if someone could give me an answer on the following question.I found out there was a beryllium oxide cooling paste in the past, but I read mixed answers about it. Aluminium oxide paste is introduced in the beginning of the 90s, beryllium oxide is used before the 80s, but then it was still present in a apple IIgs from the 80s,...And now I’m wondering if they really used the beryllium paste in de B&O devices? I already separated a transistor from the cooling element of the beovision Lx4500, without any mask/gloves. Also the transparant capacitor cover in the beomaster 5000 scraped a bit of the thermal paste off, which I couldn’t avoid :/.Thanks in advance,Kilian

author: Roehrenonkel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 12:41:02 pm
content: Hi kitendo1999,welcome to the forum.Only the inhalation (of dust) or eating this stuff is dangerous.Good luck with the repair

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 12:50:18 pm
content: Unfortunately the spectral resolution of your used camera doesn't allow remote analysisBut: Don't panic! If you have a clear indication that there is beryllium oxide in the paste, then do anything reasonable to avoid inhaling it. That means, wear a dust mask while working, use wet wipes to remove residues, do not touch your face while working with it.If it´s just old and there is no evidence for toxic content: Then anyhow avoid inhaling anything.Beryllium is nasty, but remember: There were thousands of people working each day with this stuff, and many of them got ill. The chances of being harmed by one time exposure are not zero, but probably not much worse than common risks of life.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 12:59:17 pm
content: Are you sure that's a reliable information source.I've been using thermal compound for much longer than that and have never come across Beryllium Oxide compound. I suppose I can't rule out very specialized applications where absolute thermal resistance was critical, but it would never find an application in the sort of consumer stuff shown in your photos, the dissipation is too low and the heatsink too small for such a thing to makeanythermal difference. The poisonous effects of Beryllium compounds have long been known, it would massively affect a consumer production line. High cost would be another factor.It would be interesting to know the source.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 01:39:12 pm
content: I only remember that beryllium oxide was used in semiconductors e.g. RF power transistors like BLW96.In the datasheet (Philips) was written:PRODUCT SAFETY This device incorporates beryllium oxide, the dust of which is toxic. The device is entirely safe provided that the BeO disc is not damaged.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 02:28:15 pm
content: Do not eat electronics.It's not good for your health.

author: squadchannel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 02:59:39 pm
content: I have never heard of beryllium oxide in compound.known to be found in TO-3 in powder form. (Rare, though.)

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 03:03:31 pm
content: Quote from: Roehrenonkel on September 11, 2024, 12:41:02 pmAlso don't wipe it into your eyes.Or any other holes, really.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 03:07:07 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on September 11, 2024, 03:03:31 pmIn other words, abide by the normal, common sense, work hygiene practises i.e. don't eat or drink whilst working with it and wash your hands thoroughly afterwards and you'll be fine.

author: kitendo1999
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 03:14:00 pm
content: Hey,Thanks for the fast reply's and welcoming! First of all I was not planning to eat it :p, even it looks very delicious...My apologies for the bad quality pictures, I'm afraid It wasn't my camera but me who was shaking ;p.I couldn't find any warnings about the use of it neither in the service manual, but indeed from now on I will play safe handling the devices. Normally I'm very careful with these kind of things, with washing my hands a lot and indeed not eating/ drinking, so hopefully that kept me in some kind of way safe.I find it strange if they used it in these kind of devices. Btw, on the pictures you can see the hor. deflection transistor of the beovision crt. But the cooling element is bigger than the picture shows. It's a metal plate that has a width more than 40cm and height from around 20cm and there are several transistors attached to it (others with mica). Sorry, the pictures weren't that clear and doesn't show it completely.Indeed semiconductors sounds more logical, but there is also not a big amount of information about the thermal paste, so maybe it's even a rumor?I really appreciate all the answers!Kind regards,Kilian

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 01:47:51 am
content: BeO is toxic enough that even decades ago when safety was nowhere near the paranoia level it is today, products containing it had ample warnings.A moderator here claims to have some actual BeO thermal compound:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/beryllium-oxide-heat-sink-compound/Then again, these days I see claims of Chinese audio equipment containing beryllium-coated speakers

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 02:10:16 am
content: berynium oxide may be found in a limited number of S.W.O.R.D variety #1's on Sirius 6B

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 04:43:33 pm
content: I don't know if BeO paste was ever common, though I suspect not. The thermal paste/grease is a red herring. They're all terrible in absolute terms compared to something like aluminum. It's all about the flatness and gap between the parts and using as little paste as possible in the thinnest possible layer. If you want something good, look into the phase change materials. They're basically a wax loaded with some common conductive particles. When they heat up they go liquid and the gap can get as small as possible. Now, if your surfaces aren't flat, all bets are off. Extruded heat sinks should usually be finish machined in the mounting areas to get them flat.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 05:17:35 pm
content: BeO is a dangerous material. But put it in perspective. You are very unlikely to get sick from being in the same room with it. I worked near a Brush plant that ended up closing because of inadequate control of beryllium products. Some people who worked there for years got sick. Others didn't. Some of the ones who didn't were in daily contact. Others who did were office workers with unknown source of exposure. People working side be side had different outcomes. The sensitivity varies from individual to individual for unknown reasons.So for it to be a problem for you, you need to be on the wrong end of several low probability occurrences. Direct contact, inhalation or ingestion of dust out of the paste. Sensitivity to the material. On top of the chances that the material is actually BeO. The color could come from several things.Bottom line, be careful but don't panic.

author: kitendo1999
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 14, 2024, 12:32:31 pm
content: I was also thinking, if there were indeed already warnings back then. Why would they use it in a paste that could dry out (almost powdery in worst case scenario's). But then I saw that post about the claim and the one of the apple II gs.https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/how-toxic-is-old-thermal-paste-beryllium-oxide.1245809/Others claim that it is only used in high tech and Military tech so probably that tells us, it won't be that common.https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=1372.0https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/which-thermal-paste-heat-sink-compound.760692/page-2Also bizarre to use it for speakers, ofc you'll have to do a lot of effort to break it accidently...Ohno sounds terrible what happened there :/ Yes I will, I'm gonna get me a few ffp3 masks to be sure and to calm down my mind.Thanks again for the answers, they have certainly calmed me down a bit. I really appreciate it.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2024, 12:44:45 pm
content: Always be mindful of any body reaction you get to things. Sometimes your body will 'warn' you about exposure to things.I'm not saying to 'expect' your body to warn you, clearly that would be stupid, but if you start to feel odd, get a headache or anything out the ordinary occurs when working with something new, or even just handling it, be mindful that it might be your body telling you something is very wrong.I once touched some old metal can transistors that I found in an old box and got a quite strong headache come on strong and out of no where within 5min. I don't know what it was, but to this day I'm sure there was some toxic chemical on those transistors.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2024, 01:57:59 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on September 14, 2024, 12:44:45 pmAcute Radiation Syndrome?After the nuclear plant accident, there was a lot of contaminated equipment and electronics that were buried in the exclusion zone. However, over time, they were stolen and sold at flea markets and online platforms. Such components can be heavily contaminated with dangerous radioisotopes and induced radiation. I recommend checking such purchases with a dosimeter.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2024, 03:22:18 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on September 14, 2024, 12:44:45 pmI'd think mold in the box is more likely.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 12:34:30 pm
content: It could have been anything. I kind of figured it was probably arsenic, but yeah, i dunno.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 07:21:54 pm
content: your skin is rather non absorbent on your finger tips, the only two likely routes for your headache is that it was present as a ultra fine powder (corrosion) that got airborne when you opened a box and inhaled it, or you licked your fingers that picked up a poisonous compound.Nothing dry will migrate into your blood from dermal contact unless its on a special carrier in ion (dissolved) form, usually its some kind of oil (special formulation)Apart from the possibility of a allergic reaction. I don't know much about this.I suspect you inhaled old card board or whatever the container was made from that disintegrated. I always make it a habit in a lab to pay premium to get rid of card board boxes because their messy, if you ever worked near a clean room requirement you will learn to prosecute boxes aggressively.and a cost of maintence is IMO to replace foam every... decade or so, before it goes bad. Buy a big sheet on digikey and re-line your stuff

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2024, 09:35:07 am
content: Quote from: Psi on September 15, 2024, 12:34:30 pmOr just a coincidence? Perhaps you were tired, stressed or a bit dehydrated that day?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 07:27:23 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on September 16, 2024, 09:35:07 amAnything's possible, but it was very sudden. From no headache to 100% instantly a short time after touching the parts, which I assumed was time for the substances to reach my blood stream somehow. (maybe I touched my face and licked my lips or something).Headaches for me are rare but always fade into existence. It stood out as a very abnormal event.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 08:03:31 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 15, 2024, 07:21:54 pmfor some poisons it's enough to just touch the chemical to get poisoning, because such poison can be easily absorbed through skin into blood... For example, the poison of death cap mushrooms has this effect.But described case looks more like effect from high radiation source... It's a very high risk to get some old radio components contaminated with high radioactive isotopes and induced radiation taken from the Chernobyl exclusion zone, where a nuclear disaster occurred in 1986. There are many places in the world where nuclear disasters have occurred, and it is quite possible that the components came from contaminated zone.It is quite possible to even purchase items made from metal that was contaminated in a radioactive zone and then remelted. This is because scrap metal from the zone was illegally taken out, sold as scrap, and sent for smelting, after which metal products for general use were made from it. Therefore, all metal items in stores, such as pipes and others, are worth to check with a dosimeter.These days, withnuclear power plants being shelled daily with bombs, the situation is even more critical. I suspect that if a nuclear fallout were to occur, information about it would be censored to avoid panic due to politic reasons. As a result, people may be exposed to danger due to unaware of the risks.

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 08:44:03 am
content: Quote from: radiolistener on September 17, 2024, 08:03:31 amHelloPlease stop propaganda , nuclear radiation are monitored every where in Europe both by Gov and public and on most place on this planet.Even if contaminated metal as copper will be re-melted the radiation level will be low and surely lower than a old luminescent alarm clock or oxide diuranate glass .All recycling companies in Europe have radiation detector gates and export are controlled.A radiation detector is free to purchase and use if you have fearBeryllium dust is toxic as that generate hilliness named ''Berylliosis'' which is a destruction of the lungs , beryllium in paste / compound is safe to manipulate with basic gloves and a mask ( belt / napkin / strap if you want )RegardsOS

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 09:07:41 am
content: Quote from: Overspeed on September 17, 2024, 08:44:03 amThere is no propaganda and no joke at all. This is absolutely serious. This is reality.Anyone who deals with old parts from machinery or electronic equipment knows this and has encountered such contaminated components. At least, I know of several cases, the most recent was about a year ago with an acquaintance who got a watch as a gift. After some time, he discovered with a dosimeter that the watch was highly radioactive. The watch was so highly radioactive that his acquaintance, who works in radiation control, was afraid to even approach it. He, of course, got rid of the watch, but his daughter developed cancer. It’s not certain that it was due to the watch, but still. As for metal, there have also been many cases, not all metal is checked, so contaminated metal can end up being remelted, especially considering corruption. This was happening before the war. Now, during the war, it’s unlikely that anyone will be checking anything.Radiation monitoring is another thing, it is intended to detect some huge leakage into atmosphere from nuclear power plants. It cannot detect remelted contaminated metal or contaminated machinery or electronics components. Such radioactive items in theory can be detected on detectors at borders between countries, but there is very low probability for that, just because radiation level will be high enough to trigger these detectors and that such detectors will be used at all.Regarding to global monitoring services, likeJRC Radioactivity Environmental Monitoring, I'm sure for 95% that if serious fallout will happens, they can censor it. For example, they can exclude some monitoring stations or just mark its data as error. There are many ways to carefully hide information about a disaster.You're need to understand that this is a war! And this is typical behavior to censorship some critical information or publish misinformation in reputable mass media. The lie is important part of war. So, just don't expect that someone will provide you information about real radiation map during the war, especially when nuclear phase of war will begins.

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 09:15:08 am
content: HelloYou speak about '' nuclear plants '' damaged .... without any warning from the Governments ...? now you speak about a watchand even if your ''story'' is real , a particular case is not a generality.Regarding unsafe radioactive contaminated scrap metals , in Europe and in most countries that fully controlled by the Customs and also by scrap metal companies involved in trading / recycling / melting .....Scrap metal industries are not at all a jungle but industries with laws , controls ....The subject is Beryllium , a impressive metal with very interesting properties , and not a worth problem than MercuryRegardsOS

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 09:40:39 am
content: Quote from: Overspeed on September 17, 2024, 09:15:08 amYes, I shure that when a real fallout happens, there is a very high probability that governments will not speak about it. The same as it happens during Chernobyl disaster in USSR. On the contrary, total global censorship will be activated, and even if you know about it, you won't be able to share it, your messages will be automatically removed with AI-driven censorship bot. Such censorship will be activated on any media, on any social network. If it don't helps to stop spreading information, internet and all communications will be shut down under some fabricated pretext, such as a cable malfunction or something like this...Quote from: Overspeed on September 17, 2024, 09:15:08 amYes, exactly many customs control have such detectors. But it works for fair peoples, but not for mafia and corrupted officials. It don't works for illegal export/import. And these detectors are difficult to use when transporting large volumes of materials or products, so not all products are checked, and some percentage still can get through the borders even through legal customs.Quote from: Overspeed on September 17, 2024, 09:15:08 amThis is very corrupted business. Therefore, when it comes to a huge amounts of money and large volumes, official rules don’t apply.If you don't believe it, you can investigate for yourself - find out where the huge quantities of equipment and scrap metal buried in radioactive dumps in the Chernobyl zone disappear to. It can be checked even with google earth. Mostly it was stolen and sold through different markets and scrap metal industries in 1990-2020 years.And Chernobyl zone is not the only zone where nuclear disaster happened. There are a lot of such places all around the world. There have been other disasters of that magnitude and even more severe ones that you might not even be aware of. You’ve probably heard about Fukushima, but those two incidents are far from being the only ones.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 09:41:45 am
content: Really strong sources of radioactivity that made their way out of controlled areas don't create a sudden spike of headache.There have been a few cases where such sources have been lost, and they initiated big missions of the authorities - even in Russia or Brazil. And people who were exposed to such accidents have always slowly gotten ill.That there are "hidden" nuclear accidents in the world is absolute propaganda bullshit. There are lots of independent radiation monitoring networks in the world, they all would detect a large power plant blowing up and no one can hide it. Not even the USSR could do that 1986, and it´s well known they´ve tried to...Beryllium really is a fascinating material. Yes it´s toxic enough to ban it in general and uncontrolled usage. But it´s nothing to panic about as long you don't start a new job in an underground beryllium processing plant

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 09:59:24 am
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on September 17, 2024, 09:41:45 amIt depends on the radioactivity level. At some level it leads to such effects. At some radiation level it leads to immediate feeling - a metallic taste in the mouth, nausea. But usually such exposure level leads to serious damage and death within 1-2 month or even week.And such effects may not necessarily occur from direct contact with the radiation source. It’s quite possible that a nearby incident could have caused a powerful burst of neutron radiation. Such accidents usually happen at facilities dealing with radioactive materials. However, you might not even be aware that such a facility is located near you. Such facilities are usually secret, so you cannot be sure that your location is safe.A relatively safe distance to avoid a lethal dose is about several kilometers. Are you sure that there is no secret facility in that range from you?Such accidents have frequently occurred in the past at facilities dealing with highly radioactive materials. You can find official reports about it. And usually, this happened with highly qualified and trained personnel. Someone from the staff might have accidentally forgotten and placed a piece of plutonium in the wrong container, or some detail was overlooked in the process of handling radioactive materials, leading to an accident. Therefore, saying that such things are impossible is not realistic - anything can happen.Even if you are certain that you are safe, there have been real cases where scrap metal hunters dismantled biological shielding fromRITEGcontainers. In one case, an unshielded piece of highly radioactive isotope was thrown into a trash bin at a bus stop. According to reports, the radiation level at the stop was around 200 Roentgens per hour... and ordinary, unsuspecting people were on that bus stop.Quote from: Phil1977 on September 17, 2024, 09:41:45 amThe assertion that "hidden" nuclear accidents are absolute propaganda bullshit overlooks several critical factors. Even though there are many independent radiation monitoring networks worldwide that can detect significant events, detection alone does not guarantee that the information will be publicly disclosed. In practice, information about nuclear incidents can be kept secret due to various reasons.Governments, especially during times of crisis or war, may choose to withhold information to avoid public panic or to protect national security. Historical examples, such as the Soviet Union's response to the Chernobyl disaster, demonstrate that even significant nuclear accidents can be kept from the public eye for a time. The Soviet Union attempted to suppress information about Chernobyl, despite the presence of radiation monitoring networks.International monitoring organizations may also be subject to censorship, particularly in extreme situations like the onset of a nuclear war. In such scenarios, no information about the radiation situation might be published at all, just because it could reveal the effects of a nuclear strike to adversaries.Accurate public disclosure could provide strategic insights to opponents, potentially affecting military planning and response. No rational entity would publicize the real outcomes of a nuclear attack, as this could prompt further nuclear strikes if the initial attack was deemed insufficiently effective, or inform the enemy about the effectiveness, influencing future military strategies.Given that we are in a situation where a global nuclear war could start at any moment due to corruption, greed, and the ambitions of certain politicians, it would be very naive to expect that anyone will provide detailed information about the radiation situation if something serious were to occur.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 11:11:30 am
content: Another example is the case of a young man who found an X-ray tube somewhere, connected it to a high-voltage power source at home, and conducted experiments with X-rays, inadvertently exposing his neighbors. The case gained attention when the young man posted a photo of himself with radiation burns on his hands on social media, described his experiments with the X-ray tube, and asked how dangerous it was and how to treat it.And yet another example is a very known case, probably you should know it - David Charles Hahn, also known as the "Radioactive Boy Scout," attempted to build a nuclear reactor using radioactive materials he collected from various household items, including smoke detectors. Hahn, a teenager at the time, managed to obtain small quantities of radioactive substances and tried to assemble a makeshift reactor in his backyard shed. His project attracted significant media attention and concern due to the potential hazards posed by his experiments.Does global radiation monitoring helped to prevent David Hahn to collect radioactive materials?

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 11:40:38 am
content: And after all, many sellers on aliexpress selling stickers with radioactive waste. And customs don't stop it. Just search for "scalar energy stickers"...

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 12:03:56 am
content: the biggest dangers are cheap skate bosses and poor material control plans. all of these incidents with missing strong radioactive material is essentially a bureaucratic screw up. They need to make it known that its a special case with its own special budget to deal with that for job sites and laboratories.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 03:17:52 am
content: It's the same as weapon, even if you prohibit it by law and use very strict procedures to handle it, some part still will be without control.The same with criminals, if you prohibit it by law, some people still will be doing crime.The paradox here is that more strict law leads to more criminals and less stable government. Even ancient philosophers, such as Laozi, Machiavelli, and others, wrote about this.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 11:11:05 am
content: It wasn't something radioactive, this was in New Zealand, the likelihood of coming across something 'that' radioactive here is very very low.Most likely just a toxic chemical absorbed through either the skin or maybe I touched by face and some got consumed.