EEVblog #1168 - Dumpster Diving UPS - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 10:29:03 pm
content: Dave scores a HP R1500 G3 rack mount Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) from the dumpster.Teardown time!

author: Treehouseman
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 10:51:35 pm
content: I don't recall having ever owned a well built UPS that didn't require battery voltage to turn on. It makes sense from a safety aspect. If something happens to make the unit fail or the batteries become useless it takes itself out of service once it no longer has power to hold down the line relay. This is how I've gotten many ups's for free or close to it. 9/10 times they just need a fresh set of batteries, there's nothing actually wrong with the unit, even though they refuse to turn on.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 11:01:36 pm
content: Quote from: Treehouseman on January 12, 2019, 10:51:35 pm+1 for this. One time I powered up an APC UPS by replacing the 24V batteries with a 24V wall wart that was only rated for a few watts . The UPS needed the 24V to bias something before it would turn on. Be careful that your power supply isn't going to smoke when the UPS tries to charge the batteries!Ed

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 11:20:26 pm
content: Yes, got 2 that need new 24V battery packs to run, just looking for some used but good lead acid batteries for them, as they are 1kVA units.You will also notice the heatsinks are just a big thermal mass, no fins to dissipate the heat, just a big enough thermal mass so the power dissipated in them during the 15 minutes or so of backup operation will not get them to the shutdown temperature before the batteries reach low voltage under the massive load imposed on them. Then the unit sits there till power comes back on, waits the on power delay and energises the transformer relay and the output relay and uses the incoming mains to rather brutally charge the batteries till they reach the lower float voltage, then change to trickle charge mode to finish the charge. Periodically it will do a self test on the batteries by powering the DC Dc converter to charge the output capacitors and monitor battery voltage for droop, and sound an alarm ( plus also show on the built in web server if the accessory LAN interface is installed) showing battery health. That 5V regulator really needs a better heatsink, the one it is on is not really going to be good without the fan blowing over it, as it likely has close to the battery voltage on the input, or there is a 12V regulator on the big block of aluminium that feeds it.More modern ones track battery life as well, so will have reduced predicted runtime as the batteries age, so they can give a predicted shutdown signal when power is lost so the load can initiate a controlled power off and command the UPS off instead of it just dropping the load on low battery without notice. Bet that one was beeping for months before they had a power failure and it simply shut off after 5 seconds, never to turn on again.

author: elliottveares
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 11:23:26 pm
content: Would the UPS still attempt to charge fully dead batteries following a power outage where the batteries were fully drained down?

author: Treehouseman
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 11:34:24 pm
content: Quote from: elliottveares on January 12, 2019, 11:23:26 pmNo, with the UPS off, the relay that connects the line to the output and charge circuit is open, so without battery voltage to close the relay and "boot" the ups it can't turn on.

author: johnlsenchak
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 12:01:25 am
content: Hey Dave, stop fingering those ports !I agree with you those two XP computers are not worth fixing, they only have scrape value I would just grab the CPU and memory modulesTwo days ago, I was dumpster diving inspired by Dave of course, and I found two brand new Epson Workforce Pro WF4720 printers in the boxeshttps://epson.com/For-Work/Printers/Inkjet/Epson-WorkForce-Pro-WF-4720-All-in-One-Printer/p/C11CF74201Most A.P.C Smart uninterrupted power supplies will continue to run on the mains, if the batteries dies or get disconnectedI would love to see a repair video on that H.P. uninterrupted power supplies.

author: Zenwizard
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 12:27:53 am
content: DaveI agree with everyone on the Dell PC's They are a little too old. I work on servers and UPS units for my day job, the batteries in a UPS should not be bulging, any bulging or sometimes rattling rebuild the battery kit. Some of the ups units I have serviced will not start unless it sees battery voltage. They will stay on line once the batteries die or get disconnected. But they wont start up from cold. Also all batteries should be changed at the same time due to age on the cells. Usually what the UPS is protecting is WAY more expensive then a few batteries. Typically the batteries are non-spill able gel lead acid batteries or sealed lead acid batteries. First trouble shooting step I would do is put the needed battery voltage at the connector and see if the UPS starts then go from there.Zen

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 12:47:14 am
content: Quote from: Treehouseman on January 12, 2019, 10:51:35 pmThis one is a hot swappable battery, so it's designed to be disconnected and still function.

author: Treehouseman
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 01:03:27 am
content: Looking at the manual it doesn't outright state that it can be turned on with or without batteries. It seems to read like it needs battery power to turn on, stating that the ups can only deliver output to the outlets and start charging the batteries if it is already "powered up" or has battery power and no line connected. In the section for troubleshooting if the unit doesn't turn on, it doesn't say that batteries are required but it does say to give them 24 hours to charge, though I'm not sure how that works if it needs to be operational to charge.

author: KK
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 01:48:32 am
content: Have seen this behavior in a range of UPS units from small to multi-kw. Hot swappable only means you can swap the batteries while the unit is already on and it won’t interrupt output. This doesn’t apply if the ups is already off and needs to turn on with no batteries or dead ones, because it will not.

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 01:49:28 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 13, 2019, 12:47:14 amYes, when the power is on, the battery can be disconnected without problem.But when everything is off, the battery is required to turn the input relay on. After that, the line input can power everything. I have multiple UPSs and they all behave like that.After all, you cannot trust the input - you first have to measure it to see that it is in spec and only then turn on the relay.The only exception is my 40kW three phase UPS - that one needs input circuit breaker connected first and battery circuit breaker connected when the LCD indicates so. I presume this is done so that there would be no inrush current as the DC side has something like 16x 470uF capacitors per phase (so 22560uF capacitance total for all phases). Connecting 720V of batteries to those caps would result in some inrush current, so the UPS charges those caps gently from the line input.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 02:59:10 am
content: The"BatteryDoctor" australia websitesells the individual HRL 634W (or a panasonic substitute) for AU$39. That's $234 to get completely fresh batteries in this thing, which isn't all that bad. For the record, Mouser have them for US$15.20 each, which is even better, but they won't ship them to Australia.﻿

author: Inverted18650
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 03:03:45 am
content: If you feed the DC side 36V from a power supply with at least 10A capability, do not plug it into mains, and power it up using just the DC side. If you have no use for it, please put it on eBay and let us fight for it.For a UPS, the battery bank must send a feedback to the CPU saying it is sufficently powerful enough to boot and work, the AC input doent do anything other than charge the battery bank, and in some cases, provide a temporary voltage for "hot swap" capabilities. The unit needs to be already up and running on the DC, it will not boot on just AC. Since the battery bank is more than dead, you can unlpug the AC side and feed it a DC that will "ping back" to the control an 'okay to boot' and get it up and running. Could alos grab three old vehicle batteries and plop then in series to get it going. Or my favorite idea, hence the name, build your own custom 18650 battery bank to drive the inverter. Much love. Ill gladly buy it if you dont find a use for it.

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 03:28:25 am
content: Quote from: Inverted18650 on January 13, 2019, 03:03:45 amThis is a line-interactive UPS (when there is power input, a relay connects it straight to the output), because it has only one transformer.Anyway, initially the MCU is powered only from the battery. When you plug in the line power, the MCU measures it and if it's OK, turns on the input relay. After that, the line input is used to power the MCU and another relay connects line input it to the output. When the power fails, the inverter starts up and provides power to the output.What you are referring to is an on-line UPS that runs its inverter all the time. Those UPSs either have two big transformers (one for input and one for output) or no transformer at all and enough batteries to be able to run directly on line voltage (I have seen 384V and 720V DC).But if Dave wants to start up this UPS without buying new batteries, he should connect a 36V (a few amps) power supply trough a diode to the battery input, connect the line input and push the button.

author: Inverted18650
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 03:39:20 am
content: Thanks for clarifing. I have several models of UPS that I run random tests on. Many are mil grade and have been tossed into the dumpster because due to batteries going 'way under voltage' and their subsequent refusal to take a charge ever again. I did not check the datasheet for this unit and jumped to conclusions, but I am really interested to see his followup videos.

author: Zenwizard
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 04:54:04 am
content: I know from personal troubleshooting, That Leibert and APC 900VA to 3000VA ups will not start without modest battery voltage on the input. Batteries can be drained but not flat At .6V those batteries arnt just dead I would be willing to bet one is shorted and nuked the rest of the pack. The bulging mentioned in the video defiantly needs a battery replacement. I have not worked with larger then 3000VA single phase.APC units will trickle charge the batteries even when the UPS is off so If you have one that is flat you can wait about 10 minutes and it will kick on when you hit the button. That is assuming the batteries are taking a charge.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 05:21:58 am
content: Quote from: Pentium100 on January 13, 2019, 01:49:28 amI only have one UPS - and it needed a voltage on the battery connection to start up as well.Hot swappable doesn't mean cold startable.

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 05:31:38 am
content: If the batteries are discharged, but not dead, then the voltage of a 12V nominal battery would still be >10V. 0.6V for the entire pack means that the batteries are dead completely and you need to replace all of them (one new battery in series with 5 old ones means that the new battery will be undercharged and fail rather fast, better to get all new ones, preferably from the same batch).I did not check the datasheet of Dave's UPS either, but I had multiple UPSs that work exactly like that - battery power up the MCU, the MCU then switches on the input. The only exception I know of is the 40kVA three phase UPS that has a startup procedure (4 circuit breakers need to be turned on in specific order at specific times).Quote from: Brumby on January 13, 2019, 05:21:58 amFor a UPS cold-start usually means initially starting the UPS without line power (the cheapest models and the 40kVA cannot do that). Normally you don't run a UPS without batteries and this actually seems like a good thing - if the batteries are completely dead or disconnected, the UPS does not turn on and you notice that there is a problem.

author: TruslowPJ
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 06:12:38 am
content: Those units are manufactured by Eaton for HP. I have a slightly older model, in the tower config and it won't turn on without batteries present. they can be completely garbage batteries but as long as they present some sensible open circuit voltage, the UPS will turn on and attempt to charge them. 9Ah 6V SLA are hard to come by, but 7Ah would run it and should fit. alternatively you could have external batteries, use 3 12V (edit: or 6 6V) 9Ah SLA AGM batteries (with F2 Terminals) and you will have an incredibly high quality UPS. these things ran like $500+ new. I was lucky to get one free with also dead batteries and I love mine. I did have to swap the fan for a quieter noctua fan though.Mine is a T1500 G2. It was a royal PITA to find any information on these models though. HP didn't put out a whole lot of documentation but here is the overview page from HPE if anyone is interested:https://support.hpe.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c02851095#N101D9Edit: also found the user guide:https://support.hpe.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?sp4ts.oid=5106177&docLocale=en_US&docId=emr_na-c02867104&withFrame

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 06:18:59 am
content: The 9Ah battery is a high discharge rate version of a 7Ah battery, it's the same size.

author: TruslowPJ
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 06:26:18 am
content: Quote from: Pentium100 on January 13, 2019, 06:18:59 amI figured as much. I tried to match the specs in my case as well as I could, but you have to take what you can get.

author: Orips
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 08:39:22 am
content: Hey Dave,You normally need to HOLD DOWN the power button until the unit turns on. Same to shut it down

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 08:49:20 am
content: Those heatsinks."Should we place an extruded aluminium HS?""Nah. Lets just place there a chunk of metal cut to size by a saw."I'm not sure if this is over or under engineering.

author: tigrou
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 01:45:16 pm
content: I was expecting to see huge capacitors in that UPS to maintain output when the mains goes down and relays are switching (which take some time). How does it work then ?

author: max_torque
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 03:34:53 pm
content: What is the architecture that this unit uses?The FETs shown are only rated to 150V, so either are used for the Dc/DC to the battery only (36v nominal) or the large transformer is used to step up/ down to the A/C voltage and all the "switching" happens at the low voltage level?It would be a nice little donor unit for the basis of a home PV / Battery project....

author: Unixon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 06:14:53 pm
content: How about blown power traces at the bottom side of the board? It's a weird case for an UPS but...

author: TruslowPJ
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 06:21:21 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 13, 2019, 08:49:20 amThose heatsinks were designed for thermal mass, not for dissapation to ambient. they only need to sink the amount of heat generated when running at full load for the duration of the batteries before the aluminum is too hot. the inverter is only intended to run for 5-6 minutes at full load. UPS units that are intended for extended battery operation will use finned heatsinks, but units only intended to run as long as the internal batteries last are often designed with large block heatsinks instead.

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 07:03:14 pm
content: Quote from: tigrou on January 13, 2019, 01:45:16 pmA capacitor won't really help with AC output. Anyway, line-interactive UPSs have a switching time of a few milliseconds - the capacitors in the power supplies of the load are supposed to take care of that.Quote from: max_torque on January 13, 2019, 03:34:53 pmYes, the FETs create a PWM sinewave (or a square/pulse wave for cheaper models) that then gets stepped up by the big transformer. When there is power coming from the wall, the big transformer steps down the voltage and the FETs rectify it to charge the batteries.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 07:15:49 pm
content: Quote from: TruslowPJ on January 13, 2019, 06:21:21 pmHeatsinks as a brick, a thermal mass to heat up- a strategy by a particular UPS manufacturer whom we all know.Here it's shit engineering. Forced-air cooling with the little fan doesn't remove much heat from a brick. Spend the pennies on some fins alreadyAt 1,500W and 90% efficiency, there is 150W of heat to get rid of for say 30 minutes. She'll run pretty hot.I don't think this UPS is much above residential grade or worth investing in new batteries.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 07:40:59 pm
content: There was what looked like a white rack shelf on the floor in the dumpster room beside the UPS. They are alway nice to get and for what they are surprising expensive to buy.And Yes, there needs to be power in the batteries to turn on most UPSs.Sent from my GT-I8200N using Tapatalk

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 08:28:00 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on January 13, 2019, 07:15:49 pmAt full load it's probably 5-10 minutes.Also, IMO, a set of new batteries is always cheaper than a set of batteries and the rest of the UPS, so I usually take unwanted UPSs (in some cases broken ones that I then repair) and get some new batteries. Even if the UPS is really cheap, it's better for me to get it for free and buy new batteries, as I can buy higher quality batteries for the same amount of money.I have taken a couple of broken cheap UPSs from my workplace (with permission of course), repaired them and am now using them.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 11:01:42 pm
content: UPS have so much hyped specs to fool the IT guys.Rated 1500VA/1000W for 5 minutes, 800W for 8 minutes and 200W for an hour. It's main feature is small size, only 1U of rack space. But over 50lbs!CSBHRL 634Wbatteries are 6V 34W (hr?) at 1.67V/15 minute rate. Six of them spec would be 654W/15 minutes. But HP spec is 500W for 17 minutes.The manual says the unit runs without batteries, it will show an error on the cryptic,confusing user interface.I can't imagine trying to figure out WTF is going on with this thing during outage panicR1500 G3 user GuideGuessing around $800 new and a battery set is ~$110 plus elephant shipping costs.I keep some old UPS after recapping them and replacing the batteries.For repair, I would suspect the small SMPS supplying the 7805 is dead. Perhaps an 8-pin IC doing that work.

author: rigrunner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2019, 12:31:39 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 13, 2019, 12:47:14 amI have a UPS here that is hot swap but it must have good batteries in place to power up.Once it's powered up i can remove the batteries and it stays powered on..

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2019, 04:01:08 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on January 13, 2019, 11:01:42 pmbut 201U size is important, weight is not as much. In some places you may pay for every rack unit you use. Or if it's your own rack in your own server room, you can place more servers in that rack because the UPS is smaller.The unit may very well run without batteries, but need batteries to power up from cold. After it powers up, you can disconnect the batteries.

author: tigrou
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2019, 09:02:26 am
content: Quote from: Pentium100 on January 13, 2019, 07:03:14 pmI was thinking about a capacitor between rectifier and inverter, dealing with DC. Just like the batteries.Quote from: Pentium100 on January 13, 2019, 07:03:14 pmSo basically what you say is that UPSs rely on the fact most loads (a SMPS in a computer) can continue working properly even if power goes down for a very short period (because of capacitors on the main side, after rectifier ? eg : the 450V one)

author: aqarwaen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2019, 06:02:38 pm
content: dave do you have any dead tablets,what got dead battery?i would measure batteries and salvage batteries,to get free new battery for tablet computer...............

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2019, 08:02:30 pm
content: Indeed, I've gotten many UPS units free or at low cost because all they needed was a new battery. I am not far from Batterymart.com which has all manner of SLA batteries (and plenty of other stuff) so I can choose their cheapest shipping option (batteries are heavy!) and get them in a day or two, and they are a fraction of what APC or others charge for the exact same battery.One I got for free, a smaller unit, was brand new! The user who opened it up and hooked it up failed to notice the BIG TAG on the front that said to pull the cover off and PLUG IN THE BATTERY first. Yes, absolutely nothing wrong with it, no repair or new battery needed, just connected the battery and it was good to go.The cost posted above for a local source for the batteries in AUD is FAR less expensive than that UPS would cost new, entirely worthwhile if there is nothing else seriously wrong with it (well, if you actually need a UPS for something).

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2019, 09:13:48 pm
content: Quote from: Treehouseman on January 12, 2019, 10:51:35 pmIts a cost saving measure if that were actually the case, as they can run the circuitry off the batteries and won't need an additional off-line switching supply.But as floobydust posted, the unitshouldturn on and show an error indicator. Off course it would not enable the output if there is any error, meaning it is still safe. No reason to not power up at all in the name of safety.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2019, 10:21:20 pm
content: https://youtu.be/Fj7e3WGUKO8I can't find any schematics or service manual for the HP R1500's. Too bad, it would help make these repairable and out of the e-waste.My hunch is APC did the design and build for it, it has their reliability lol.

author: TruslowPJ
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2019, 10:57:35 pm
content: HP announced years ago Eaton was their partner for UPS systems.https://www.eaton.com/Eaton/OurCompany/NewsEvents/NewsReleases/CT_065786It appears that the R1500 G3 INTL is a rebrand of the Eaton 5115. front panel and I/O matcheshttps://www.alliedelec.com/m/d/c4ac6d3bb8731d739d1fc1c6e6cbc555.pdf

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2019, 05:56:00 am
content: I can't keep up with the acquisitions. Eaton bought Powerware in 2004. Schneider bought APC for $6.1B 2006.It certainly looks like a Powerware 5115 1500i RM (Australia). But no luck finding the service manual.I looked at other schematics of Powerware UPS and they are a simple architecture. The 7805 gets powered from the batteries. The little ferrite transformer might be a CT, not a SMPS.Dave could connect a 36VDC power supply in place of good batteries and see if the MCU then comes up.Then the PSU gets bumped up to 42VDC "charging". Then we'll know if it needs batteries to boot up.

author: thieringpeti
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2019, 08:41:30 am
content: Hi!I have two of these, from a fab parts auction. I have the original Eaton 5115, but the smaller, 24V version with four batteries. The internals are the same, even the battery drawer. Only the label is different. One of them was renewed with a fresh set of Panasonic batteries, and now it's operating well. The other one was tested, and put in storage for spare, without batteries. I can confirm, it won't power up without a battery set. The only con is the bundled software. Eaton's Powerware suite software is a bit of crap, it monitors the UPS only for 15 minutes, then it says UPS is offline. I haven't tried it with XP which the UPS designed for, and also Windows 7 don't have the drivers for it, (unknown usb device), so only that downloadable crap PM software can be used from Eaton's site to monitor the state.The two loads can be swithched separately, I tested that functionality. As You can see, at the connector, there's a fourth black wire hiding under the blue neutral on Your video. With the software suite, you can specify, that on power loss, it turns off first the least important stuff, to a save battery life before it shutting down finally, e.g. shutting down first the web server, then the sql server, or first the monitor, then the PC. You can also set the shutdown timers and treshold voltages from the software.

author: ve7xen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2019, 08:32:23 pm
content: Quote from: tigrou on January 14, 2019, 09:02:26 amExactly. It's typically less than a single AC mains cycle (2-4ms for this unit), so most types of power supplies should tolerate it. If your load can't tolerate the switching time, you need an 'online'/'double conversion' UPS rather than a 'line-interactive' one. This type would always run the load from the inverter, using the line to power the inverter and charge the batteries, rather than power the load directly, so the batteries can pick up the load instantly on loss of line power.

author: thieringpeti
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2019, 09:32:33 pm
content: So themay be a killer for this UPS... 3 identitical car batteries in series would be a nice solution for extended runtime... So that 7805 should be checked if bigger capacity batteries would be used...