Secrets of the Sun, and we are having squirrel for dinner. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: GreggD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 05:04:53 pm
content: PBS Nova Documentary "Secrets of the Sun"Airdate: April 25, 2012Coronal mass ejection, or C.M.E. It's a wave of billions of tons of electrically charged particles.Together, they could hit like a cosmic tsunami, delivering a surge of radiation and an electrical spike of trillions of watts, potentially crashing the power grid.In March, 1989, in Quebec, Canada, that's exactly what happens. One by one, power stations crash, disabled by the overwhelming power surge caused by a C.M.E. wave. In less than two minutes 6,000,000 people are left without power.NASA's Jim Green finds evidence that an even bigger solar storm hit Earth in 1859, the granddaddy of geomagnetic storms, and that was just 150 years ago.The massive electrical surge from a C.M.E. wave could overload power lines and melt transformers, blacking out entire cities.Repair could take weeks, months and even, worse case scenario, the National Academy suggested up to 10 years for a full recovery.Large transformers take many months to make. Would need a lot of them. Do they have power to make them ?The documentary suggests, Need to chop wood to keep warm and a gun so we can eat squirrel.There is only hours of time to take action when a large CME is detected.***Question: Is there a national plan in the USA to power down the "grid" for some time to protect it from destruction ?How about communication between NASA and power stations while power is off, Ham radio ?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 05:16:01 pm
content: Why wait until a CME to eat squirrel? Thar's good eatin' on a squirrel!

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 05:38:56 pm
content: I would suggest moose instead of squirrel. More meat in moose.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 05:40:34 pm
content: M00se kan be verri verri dangerous. Plus the squirrels tease my dogs.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 10:15:46 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on March 16, 2018, 05:38:56 pmSquirrel r good, except red squirrels, stay away from those...

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 10:43:00 pm
content: Last time I saw a real red sqirrel was 50 years ago, now they're only found in sanctuaries or maybe a few remote parts of Scotland. Come to think of it I've probably seen more men land on the moon than I've seen red squirrels !

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 10:48:30 pm
content: Still a healthy number on the Isle of Wight. Grey squirrels can't swim that far and there are plenty of pensioners to feed them.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 05:01:21 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on March 16, 2018, 05:16:01 pmWell they may taste good, but most people don't know there is a prion (mad cow like) disease in squirrels which can be transferred to humans.http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)63333-8/fulltexthttp://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/29/us/kentucky-doctors-warn-against-a-regional-dish-squirrels-brains.htmlQuote from: Red SquirrelOverheard on a Canadian radio call-in talk show about the dangers of car-moose collisions in Canada, which kill quite a few people.Woman caller in her best fake Russian Natasha accent: "Moose iz not problem, sqwuirrrrel izz problem. sqwuirrrrel izz brainzz behind moose."

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 02:45:39 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on March 16, 2018, 10:43:00 pmI heard they are practically going extinct in that part of the world because the grays are taking over. #redlivesmatter. Even the animal kingdom seems to have race wars.We have plenty of reds here though, in fact think they are the only ones we have. With climate change we are starting to get different animals though, like racoons. Never had those before. That might affect the population of native species.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 02:46:55 pm
content: I'd rather octopus.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 02:48:34 pm
content: Actually as far as CMEs affecting power grid, I've always kind of heard this as fact, but I'm curious, what exactly happens and why does it affect the grid? Is it because transmission lines are basically like giant antennas so it just picks up the magnetic force and creates high voltage surges? Could they have switch gear that simply disconnects when it detects over voltage, or is a mechanical device just not fast enough to deal with the power levels that would be present?

author: GreggD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 03:28:28 pm
content: > but I'm curious, what exactly happens and why does it affect the grid?Well I believe electric current is conducted into the wires. This is DC and saturates the inductance of the transformer thus the power from the power plant finds no back EMF, huge currents flow in the windings, melting them.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 05:15:07 pm
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on March 17, 2018, 05:01:21 amno problem, discard the brain and spinal cord, just eat the meat, heart, kidneys and liver.Quote from: TwoOfFive on March 17, 2018, 02:46:55 pmNot bad, but if we keep overfishing, the only seafood left will be jellyfish.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 05:58:30 pm
content: Quote from: GreggD on March 17, 2018, 03:28:28 pmI'm less than completely sure of the full details of the mechanism of CME damage to electric grids but I am damn sure that it's aninductioneffect not aconductionone.For it to be conductive there must be a conductor, and the only candidate for that would be the atmosphere. As the dielectric breakdown potential of air is ~3 MV/m that would imply a potential difference across the diameter of the Earth of ~12.8 Mm * 3 MV/m = 3.84 x 1013volts. Thirty eight odd teravolts across the Earth would give usslightlybigger problems than the odd power grid failure.The handwaving description of the actual effect is: The CME causes disruption of the Earth's magnetosphere, pushing it to one side. This causes discontinuities in the magnetic field as it breaks and reconnects. This results in changing magnetic flux, changing magnetic flux + long power lines + Faraday's law => electric field along the conductor and hence a current. As I say, I'm short on the fine detail, hence the handwaving description.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 06:39:47 pm
content: Is there any possibility of installing a thermal protection system to isolate the transformer, if it overheats? I suppose both the primary and secondary sides would need disconnecting.What about a large DC blocking capacitor in series with both sides or is that just too expensive?

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 06:40:46 pm
content: So I guess it would be kinda like waving a giant magnet along the wiring of the grid, so this causes induced current much like a magnet in an alternator, and then it causes voltage spikes across the whole grid. With added bonus of blowing transformers as they are expecting 60hz power and this is probably much lower frequency, practically DC. At least that's how I'm understanding it?The northern lights show would maybe be worth it though. Who needs working computers or electricity when you have a serious acid trip going on in the sky.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 07:04:40 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on March 17, 2018, 06:40:46 pmSadly, even with big CMEs the Aurorae still rarely make it south of 60 degrees North and almost never are bright enough to be seen at 55 degrees North. So if you're in either of the Londons (UK, Ontario) or Vancouver (BC) you're probably out of luck even for the biggest CMEs.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 07:23:27 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on March 17, 2018, 07:04:40 pmI'm at around 48 degrees so would maybe get something, or are these different than normal CMEs in the way they hit?One of my better pics:That was a magical night, was a nice night, cool enough so that there's no mosquitoes but not too cold that I'm freezing my fingers trying to use the camera.I need to setup a radio and long wire one of these days, apparently you can actually "hear" these on shortwave frequencies.

author: SG-1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 09:04:31 pm
content: The storm of 1859 is known as the Carrington Event: I have read some accounts where telegraph lines were set on fire & the operators electrocuted.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859

author: GreggD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2018, 01:05:10 pm
content: Pete Riley, a physicist who looked at extreme space weather events for the last 50 years, says there’s a 12% chance that a Carrington-level storm will hit Earth in the next 10 years.Kappenman has developed a $100,000 capacitor to block storm-induced surges, but these are unproven in emergency situations.The Neutral Capacitor and Bypass Device, developed by independent electrical engineer John Kappenman, uses a simple capacitor to block space-storm-induced DC currents from surging through transformers.Kappenman estimates that protecting the country's entire grid from a massive CME would require 5,000 of his devices.Homeland Security-funded Recovery Transformer project, or RecX, is developing a temporary transformer that can be easily stored, moved on flatbed trucks, and installed within a few days during an emergency.

author: sca
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2018, 01:39:20 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on March 16, 2018, 10:43:00 pmCloser than that.Holiday in the Lake District last year. Red squrrel populations are supposed to be recovering there, so the wife spent all holiday looking for them. Zilch. Nada.Got chatting to a guy in the bar on the last night who mentioned that there was a steamer on the Settle Carlisle line the following day. Wife agreed to a detour so we stopped off at Garforth on the way home. Light drizzle so she stayed in the car. Got onto the platform, and there's a couple of the blighters playing on the opposite platform. Luckily had a big lens on the camera so got some snaps, but by the time I'd fetched the wife the were long gone!sca