European Quality 1-off PCBs at DIY-Friendly Prices - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Dr_Ram
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2011, 04:00:33 am
content: (Yes this is partly a promotional post, but I promise to abide by the rule "No continued spam." Only one post, no more (barring replies to questions). And PCB making is not my business, really. Read on. Cheers - Ram)Lots of discussions on this EEVBlog board indicate, not surprisingly, a level of frustration with the fact that there are almost no PCB proto services that will let you order just 1-2 PCBs without burning a hole in your pocket or compromising on specifications because you're a "hobbyist." As a DIYer and then as a guy who has been designing crossovers for DIYers, I was frustrated too. As a service to the DIY community I have bitten the bullet and decided to launch my own PCB batching service.ForUS$1.50 per square inch, you get 2-sided boards,bothsides soldermask,bothsides silkscreen,100% flyprobe-tested, andimmersion-goldfinished! There isnosetup fee,nominimum. Yes, you can order just one board! Boards are made by the Bangalore plant of aEuropean PCB major, so surprises are rare. Shipping isjust US$7worldwide.Pricing Examples* 5x5 cm (4 sq inches): US$ 6 + shipping* 5x10 cm (8 sq inches): US$ 12 + shipping* 10x10 cm (16 sq inches): US$ 24 + shippingFor more info on specifications and ordering, please visitwww.audesine.comand look under the Proto PCBs tab. Or, just write to me at rr atSPAM audesine dotSPAM com for more information.Cheers - Ram

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2011, 05:34:41 am
content: where are you located? its good to know low price for 1-off, what about bigger order (10-100 pcb)? do you take large order? with discounted price? what about lead time for 1,2 or 100 pcb?

author: Dr_Ram
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2011, 05:55:07 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on September 15, 2011, 05:34:41 am1. I live and work in Bangalore, India, which is why I scoured the countryside near me to find a Bangalore-based European manufacturer of PCBs to whom I could drive across if I had problems, and escalate to Europe if I did.2. By 10+ I assume you are asking about multiplecopiesof the same board. Since PCBs is not really my business I have not offered the volume stuff, though it is certainly a fact that volume stuff works out pretty cheap here (and there are Euro manufacturers in Bangalore who do ONLY volume stuff). Doing the volume stuff would mean I end up playing a pure "middleman" role, but if it helps the community and if my time permits I could think about it. But no promises at the moment :-). Ideally you should workdirectlywith a PCB manufacturer for that sort of need - there is lots of choice and they'd be desperate to get your business.3. Lead time for 1-2 PCBs: It really depends on how much I am able to spread the word around, and how many people pool in. I need to accumulate 200 square inches of PCB for a panel before I submit it to the fab house. Right now I am only just spreading the word, so things are slow. As of today it could take 2-3 weeks to accumulate a panel then a week for production. Then a week for the packet to get to you if you opt for registered airmail. If however I am able to get sufficient DIY attention then it could be much faster.Best,-Ram

author: shadewind
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2011, 12:25:50 pm
content: What's the min width, min spacing, min hole size and min annular ring?

author: Dr_Ram
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2011, 01:08:28 pm
content: Quote from: shadewind on September 15, 2011, 12:25:50 pm6mil, 6mil, 12 mil, 7 mil. I've listed the specs athttp://www.audesine.com/proto-pcbs.

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2011, 01:20:21 pm
content: Great! I'll spread the word around at university.It would be great to read some feedback here, but of course as long as there are few customers this could be difficult.I think that although ITead Studio story demonstrated that cheaper services have some risks, with these prices the service is worth a try, even if you're very cautious.

author: shebu18
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2011, 04:20:47 pm
content: What about 10-15 boards, is there a discount or something like that?

author: Dr_Ram
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2011, 04:50:11 pm
content: Quote from: shebu18 on September 15, 2011, 04:20:47 pmIn case you are asking about 10-15copiesof the same board. Please see Point#2 I made just a couple of posts earlier, in response to Mechatrommer.If you're asking about 10-15 different boards, they would all be charged at $1.50 per sq inch, because a fab house cannot give discounts for different boards. (Note that this is abatchedPCB service, which means I can give it to the fab house only after I've got about 200 square inches of board requests to make a full "panel".) The per-square-inch costs start dropping (very sharply too) only if you make additionalcopiesof the same panel. The bulk of their costs really are in the (i) tooling and in (ii) setting up for the flyprobe tests (which are included in the $1.50 price), which is why flyprobe testing is often not included in low-cost proto services.Therefore: if I had a bunch of orders to fill ONE panel, it would cost $1.50. Ifeveryonein that panel wanted N pieces of each board (even if N=2), the fab house would simply replicate the panel and the additional boards would cost much less - likely less than $1/sq inch.

author: shadewind
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2011, 08:47:31 pm
content: Personally, I often need something along the lines of 3 or 4 boards. One to mess up, and then two or three that works fine.

author: shebu18
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2011, 06:22:26 am
content: Maybe i would need 10 boards of a 5x10cm single sided PCB. 78 holes and 72 smd contacts. That is 500 square cm or 77.50 square inches. how much would that cost?Starting from $24 for 16 square inch i would get around $115+shipping for the panel. That is a bit much.

author: Dr_Ram
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2011, 08:55:58 am
content: Quote from: shadewind on September 15, 2011, 08:47:31 pmQuote from: shebu18 on September 16, 2011, 06:22:26 amThere are many different PCB needs we need to understand; any given PCB service will work for some kinds of needs but not for other kinds of needs.1) To whoever you go anywhere in the world, there is a BIG difference between ordering 10 boards of the same design and ordering 10 boards of different designs. If you want 10 boards of thesamedesign (i.e, 10copies), there are lots and lots of choices - you can get it very cheap per board whether you order in Europe, USA China or India. That is what PCB manufacturers love to do because most of the cost is in the initial setup - not in the manufacturing. For such a need you should workdirectlywith a PCB manufacturer which I am not!2) If you want to get 10differentdesigns done, the price would still be much higher per square inch. But if ONE person like you had 10 different designs at thesametimeready to order, you'd still have lots of choice - many PCB manufacturers are ready to offer you a whole panel if you want. Again, for such a need you should workdirectlywith a PCB manufacturer!3) If you are going to have 10 (or even 2) different designs coming up at different times (say a week apart) and you want to be able to order them separately as and when they are ready, your choices are very very few. I do not want to compare myself with the others that offer a 1-off service or try to put them down, because they are also trying to help DIYers, but you would find that getting 10 such boards orderable separately at $1.50 per sq inch withno setupfor each order is plainly impossible.I was actually driven to offer such a service because the way I have operated as a DIYer, I have always prepared one design, ordered it, assembled it, thenchanged it a bit, ordered a PCB again, assemble, make any final changes or confirm that everything is OK, and then order a third final/"baseline" if I need to. Because this always shot up my costs enormously, or forced me to order 3/5/10 at a time "hoping it would all work right" (and it wouldn't!), I felt the need for a pure-1-off PCB service and am trying to offer this as a solution to thisspecific prototypingkind of need. It will definitelynotserve the interests of those who have (i) already finalized their design and want to order 10 copies of the same board, or (ii) a group of 10 who is working on the same project and wants to order 10 copies so each can have one copy to play with or (iii) those who have 10 separate designs but all ready to order together. For these cases the best choices are to work directly with a PCB manufacturer (which I am not!).

author: shebu18
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2011, 11:07:56 am
content: The boards are the same, they are copies.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2011, 09:43:50 am
content: From your site :Please do not send panelized gerbers; there is no cost advantage in doing so, and it complicates matters for us.I may want to panelise for stencilling & pick/place - presumably pre-panelised boards are acceptable within the 20x20cm limit?What is the minimum router size for internal cutouts & plated slots?If you are not guaranteeing how long before a panel is submitted, it might be useful to have some indication of current status (i.e. estimated ship-time) on the website.

author: Dr_Ram
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2011, 11:58:47 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 17, 2011, 09:43:50 amApologies for the delayed response on this question - this somehow did not get into my inbox though the thread alert is on. Please do feel free to write to me directly from my website with your specific requirements.As you saw on the website, 20x20 is not a hard limit. There is a lot of flexibility I have since I work very closely with the fab house; it's just that large boards make it more difficult to optimally utilize the available panel space. The router size they use by default is a 2mm one, and on request they should be able to go down much smaller. Status indicator on website: Being a new service, I'm currently trying to give an indication as soon as half the panel is full, so that there is some predictability. But till word gets around I will hesitate to make accurate time projections, though 3 weeks to fill a panel looks reasonable to start with.

author: shebu18
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2011, 04:07:12 pm
content: What if i gave a 86x67.5mm board? This is 9.06 sqin $13.59 + shipping? Right?

author: Dr_Ram
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2011, 04:18:52 pm
content: Quote from: shebu18 on September 30, 2011, 04:07:12 pmActually 8.99 sq in (1 in = 25.4mm) rounded up to the next integer which would bill at 9 sq in = $13.50 + $7 shipping. (9.06 sq in would round up to 10 sq in.)

author: shebu18
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2011, 05:58:01 pm
content: Hello, could you post some pictures of the work you realized? I mean pictures with the pcb's.

author: Dr_Ram
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2011, 02:25:12 am
content: Quote from: shebu18 on October 03, 2011, 05:58:01 pmI have a panel in fabrication as I write that is expected to complete in a couple of days. I'll post a couple of pictures of those as soon as they are in. That panel is made in the Bangalore plant of the German firm Wurth Electronik CBT.

author: Dr_Ram
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 03:33:27 pm
content: Quote from: Dr_Ram on October 04, 2011, 02:25:12 amSample extract of PCB attached. Made by Wurth Electronik CBT.

author: shebu18
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2011, 09:29:17 am
content: The PCB looks great. I will send you some PCB;s in the future. How big is the panel that you need to fill for a order to start?

author: Dr_Ram
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2011, 07:05:04 am
content: Unfortunately Wurth Elektronik pulled the plug on the third panel. They did not want to do it any more. I guess they were only interested in volume orders. Once bitten twice shy, and having been let down by firm of German pedigree I am unlikely to launch this service again. My apologies.-Ram

author: Dr_Ram
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 08:10:11 am
content: Quote from: Bharath on January 21, 2013, 07:00:52 amOh, well, I asked these folks for a quote on 21st January, a good 12 days ago, for a proto enclosure quote and an assembly quote for a medium run of PCBs. Apart from a quote for something I did not ask for, and despite many reminders and follow-ups, each followed by a promise to deliver the quote in 2 days, I have received nothing. Personally, I am not recommending MicroLOGIX.Best - Ram