Copper Theft World Wide - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Poroit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 05:48:48 am
content: G'day All,The Copper theft problem is costing us a fortune.https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-12-02/perth-suburb-targeted-as-copper-cable-theft-rises/104673256

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 06:42:46 am
content: Mandatory prison time for anyone involved. Reduced sentences if the crook names their accomplices.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 06:43:25 am
content: It's not just cable either, a few years ago the neighbours opposite built a brand new house and the plumber left two short lengths of copper tube poking out of the brick work in preparation for connection to the hot water unit.A day or so before the neighbours moved in some low life scumbag entered the building site and broke off the copper tubes flush with the wall which resulted in the plumber having to knock out a heap of bricks to extend the broken pipes, then the brick layer had to come back out to patch up the wall, and all of this at the new owners expense.I was informed about it when they rang to see if I could identify when the theft occurred as I had cameras facing the street and in turn their house, unfortunately exhaustive searching didn't reveal anything. These inconsiderate scum have no idea of the distress and trouble they cause people and for what? a few cents worth of copper.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 06:54:59 am
content: Seems to me like the only real solution to this universal problem is to make it harder for thieves to sell their stolen metal.Same thing as catalytic converter theft: I had mine sawn off in the middle of the night in the mid-2000s when I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area. At that time it was pretty easy to get paid for stolen converters at area scrapyards, but they've since tightened things up so you have to be registered to be able to sell scrap, and have to show some kind of proof where the cat converter came from. This hasn't stopped converter theft but it has put something of a dent in it.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 08:11:07 am
content: The biggest thieves have got to be the international postal services. Whenever I order something involving wire from China they intercept the shipment, steal the copper, and substitute CCA or even CCS.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 09:08:40 am
content: Yeah.In NL we have this problem for years. Copper cabling running next to railway lines, copper downpipes on churches, cabling on large solar fields being installed on one end and stolen on the other.And also copperartis quite desirable. This object, called 'The tongue of Lucifer', used to be completely copper clad. Then the copper was stolen, after which it was renovated. Now it is stripped again and it will be taken away. To the delight of the God-fearing population of this province, who saw it as a blasphemous object although the name was changed in 'The tongue'

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 09:26:14 am
content: we just need to find more copper to make it less valuable.Why do I think that metal theft will be like... a problem for far future civilizations and causes of piracy, raids and war? When they are REALLY dependent on it. Space pirates after copper seems plausible.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 09:43:12 am
content: Even art gets demolished. This is near where I live:Original:After copper wire has been stolen:The artwork is going to be removed pending a decission on whether to restore it or not. The copper wire gives it a certain, changing patina which is hard to mimic with other materials.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 09:46:01 am
content: i think it looks cooler now, like a billboard antennaI personally never liked the look of green copper though. I never figured out why its so popular. looks rusty to me! It either looks like rust, mold, or lichens, things I don't like. Polished metal feels like civilization.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 10:11:42 am
content: Aluminum as well in South Africa, 5km of overhead rail line was stolen the one time I chose to travel by train instead of planeI heard a rumor they are planning to use a weird mixed strand that will make smelting them more annoying

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 10:21:53 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 09, 2024, 09:43:12 amThey were stealing copper cable broad daylight in the center of a city.From a tram line, where the tram was going every ~ 5 minutes.They came with a truck, placed traffic cones, wore high visibility vest, and stole hundreds of meters of cable.Some countries estimate, they steal more cabling than new installations.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 10:29:31 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on December 09, 2024, 06:54:59 amAs you noticed yourself, it is not a "real solution" at all. Even if taken to extreme, it only makes legitimate recycling impossible, and still probably does not prevent the bad guys.And it's not definitely the only solution. For example, shooting copper thieves without trial in place would definitely completely stop copper theft in matter of months. It is a real and effective solution. Different question though is do we want to do that, and the answer is probably no, so we keep accepting crime and taking ineffective and unnecessary actions as some kind of proof to ourselves that "we are doing something".

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 10:32:56 am
content: For €6,- / kg you have to do a lot of work and planning.Trucks, cones, dirty hands, the risk of turning yourself into BBQ meat, the difficulty in getting rid of the stuff. One would think there are more easy ways to illegitimately get your hands on some cash.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 11:30:02 am
content: Electric vehicle charging cables (from rapid chargers) are also stolen by morons. In one case, someone chopping a live Tesla Supercharger cable...https://x.com/PC__LoadLetter/status/1787693944266211793That's how brazen some of these thieves are. Could have easily killed the guy with that arc flash.It's kind of ridiculous because an average rapid charging cable contains maybe £10/$10 worth of copper, but it costs hundreds to replace. Need better regulation of the scrap metal industry and yes, as has been said, mandatory prison sentences for anyone involved in theft, especially of theft of nationally critical infrastructure.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 11:44:17 am
content: Quote from: Rerouter on December 09, 2024, 10:11:42 amThat's one thing you see everywhere in rural SA, miles and miles of empty telegraph poles running along roads with all the wiring stolen. It was surprising to get pretty good high-speed cellphone coverage even in the middle of nowhere because the feed was over alu wires and the phone link didn't rely on stealable wires. Putting the gear inside reinforced-concrete bunkers and the fact that thieves may be reluctant to shut down friends and families phone service may also be a factor.

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 11:47:24 am
content: Quote from: woody on December 09, 2024, 10:32:56 amWhen "hard work" has stopped "hard working people" from doing it ?Why would a guy who has a history with guns be stopped by a 27KV line ?We are living in an ivory tower.LE: By the saying of somebody who works in Madrid at putting cables underground, its not only wires but gas pipes too.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 02:53:51 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 09, 2024, 11:30:02 amIf only ... we had some fools climb into live substations and chop up the busbars there. Few of them got fried in the process, taking out electricity for an entire village. We had even a gang dig up several kilometers of fields and meadows to get at an old and now unused ex-military communication cable. Those weren't thieves of opportunity, that was well organized because someone had to know where the cable is, get all the equipment, etc.The problem is that it is very easy to sell this material, no question asked. The moment the scrap metal handlers have to demand ID, send money only into a bank account and no cash on hand, these thefts usually plummet because it is not an easy cash anymore. Sadly even in places where are laws requiring the scrap handlers to do that, many will not and will buy whatever you bring, no questions asked, because it is more money for them. And the enforcement is pretty non-existent.Punishing the thieves is very difficult - unless you catch them in the act (good luck!) there is very little you could do, copper theft is next to impossible to prove. There aren't cameras and police on every kilometer of a railway line, for example.Quote from: Siwastaja on December 09, 2024, 10:29:31 amDon't talk nonsense. It certainly doesn't make legitimate recycling impossible, nobody is talking about banning scrap metal handlers. And these things do work - whenever it is made harder for a thief to get cash for the metal, theft plummets. A legitimate business or private person wanting to recycle something shouldn't care that they don't get money in hand but sent to a bank account. Thief is unlikely to leave their ID behind. A simple and proven effective solution - as long as this is enforced on the scrap handlers.And concerning the "effective actions" - are you going to post an armed guard at every kilometer of a railway track? What about electric wiring? Water pipes? Telephone wiring? How would you prove that someone is a thief unless you catch them in the act? Do we start shooting everyone with darker skin (replace with whatever local prejudice/racist trope applies at your place - at mine it is usually gypsies/Roma) just because they might be a copper thief? Or how do you imagine "not accepting crime and taking those effective actions"?Real life is a tad more complicated than these populist slogans and "easy solutions".

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 03:17:22 pm
content: Here n the UK it has been a requirement under law to produce photo id such as a passport or driving licence when taking metals to the scrap dealers. They also take vehicle details as well registration make colour along with a picture/ video of the vehicle on the weigh bridge. These details are kept on a computer file for some years. I know this from my own dealings with a scrap metal merchant.it does not seem to stop theft though as you often hear of phone line and power cable thefts, seems that some of the idiots that steal phone lines cannot tell copper from fibre optic as that gets stolen on occasion leaving people without internet.I have a sister in law who lives in Zimbabwe and the phone lines to her house get stolen a couple of times a year, it is not sold as scrap but turned into trinkets that are sold to tourists.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 03:55:25 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 09, 2024, 10:29:31 amAs if nobody gets murdered in the US nowadaysAs others noted: the way out of any form of theft is to block stolen items to re-enter the market. So yes, scrap metal buyers should make copies of IDs and tranfer money into bank accounts. That is a real solution.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 04:07:06 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on December 09, 2024, 03:17:22 pmThe problem is that the thieves sell to people with legitimate licences, it gets mixed up and sold on. The answer to this is for the police to have more resources and catch such "fences" of stolen metal. It's a criminal offence to buy and sell scrap metal without a licence but if the crimes aren't actually investigated and prosecuted there's effectively no deterrent.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 04:09:48 pm
content: A friend of mine had the gas pipe solden from the outside of his house.However many checks you put in at scrap dealers, the nature of scrap (and dealers) is that it is trivially easy for dodgy stuff to enter the recycling chain.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 04:46:33 pm
content: In NL you have to provide ID when you turn in scrap metal in any form (raw metal, cabling, PC's, harddisks, PCB's). And I have not been to a scrap dealer yet that did not video all comings and goings on their grounds.The story I was told is that thieves steal the metal and then transport it to (eu) countries where the checks are less rigid. Me thinks that you have to travel at least 1000km from here to find that. And when you do, you're not going to get a high price. Which adds to my confusion as to why one would run all these risks and go through all this organizing for a couple of euros per kilo max, while there are much more profitable ways of earning an illicit income.But that is spoken from my ivory tower. What do I know.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 04:54:37 pm
content: In the 80s we had to make our optical fibre cables in a custom form for projects in certain markets, labelling them something like "Optical-fibre cable. Contains no copper." along their entire length, in multiple languages. Maybe we will see more of this in the future, as increased electrification drives up the price of copper.

author: Squarewave
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 04:56:59 pm
content: Thieves! Has someone called the coppers?

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 05:03:20 pm
content: Just wait, even with the dangers, EV batteries will be the next big thing to steal in the coming decades.Their black market value next to copper will be magnitudes more for each car.Insurance companies will have a fit since usually the EV's structure is part of their battery pack and cutting it out from the bottom will trash the car unless easy hacks are found for stealing the entire car with greater ease.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 05:06:32 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on December 09, 2024, 05:03:20 pmThere was a spate of the charging cables being hacked off public high power chargers in the UK last year.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 05:09:34 pm
content: Not just copper, any metal. I've seen rough metal plates (steel probably) being stolen in broad daylight from a construction site.I mean metal plates used as weights to secure their various construction and traffic signs.I guess the crew wasn't expecting it because they left all that stuff unsecured after 4PM.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 05:12:42 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on December 09, 2024, 05:03:20 pmThat is very possible. There are gangs out there which strip cars for parts. Some people find their cars like this in the morning:This is a random google find out of hundreds of images.According to the news, there are criminal networks active which distribute the parts across the globe. So an aribag stolen in the Netherlands could end up in a car driving around in Bejing (China).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 05:17:15 pm
content: Bumper and headlight thefts are low risk and easy to sell on because the parts are commonly damaged in accidents.Dropping a Tesla battery (for instance) requires at least all four wheels to be lifted and the battery dropped onto a tray allowing it to be dragged out. It also takes almost an hour and there are bolts in the middle of the pack so you need access all around the bottom of the car.I don't see it being a particular issue but we might see manufacturers applying component protection to these parts, of course, you could still use the battery cells from them.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 05:19:50 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 09, 2024, 05:17:15 pmIf you want an EV's battery wouldn't it be easier to steal the whole car, take it to a dodgy workshop, and strip the entire car down there?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 05:27:08 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 09, 2024, 05:19:50 pmYes, at which point you might as well put the car on the boat to Albania and sell it to the friendly gentleman at the no questions asked import car business.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 05:34:14 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 09, 2024, 05:27:08 pmWith parts for most EVs being ridiculously expensive, is the car worth more as an export to Albania, or as a source of spares to fix other cars?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 06:08:29 pm
content: Quotefunny enough was watching guy martin in columbia last night and he mentioned how there was a problem with metal manhole covers being stolen for scrap ,the solution replace them with plastic. But then the plastic ones got stolen,to be flogged to areas were the metal ones had been nicked but not yet replaced

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 06:15:14 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 09, 2024, 05:17:15 pmCriminals are creative bastards. They can do it in 5 minutes for sure. With some car models (like Toyota Prius) it is common that the catalythic converter gets stolen. And that thing is under the car.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 07:04:58 pm
content: In Mexico, not only metals are stolen, but gasoline and diesel from live pipelines.There are literally hundreds and hundreds of illegal pipeline taps, and accidents are common and many times fatal. This doesn’t deter gas thieves, aka huachicoleros.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 11:31:22 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 09, 2024, 05:34:14 pmOutside of Tesla - who are an anomaly because they don't produce enough spares for their vehicles - why do you think EVs have high spare parts cost? This is the first I've heard of it.Most EV parts are shared with their ICE-car bretheren, the bumper on an e-208 is no different to the petrol 208 for instance. It's the same car, with a different drivetrain. If there are differences, the parts aren't particularly difficult to make... bumpers are bumpers, at the end of the day. The parts that do vary don't tend to be the ones damaged in a collision.Now, there will be a few differences, things like the charge port might be damaged in cars with a front mounted charging port (Zoe, Leaf for example), but I doubt these make much difference in the end. Most severe front end collisions write off cars anyway, because airbags usually detonate and radiators get broken and then that's thousands to replace properly even before you've restored the bodywork.EV's are somewhat more expensive to repair because workshops that have qualified technicians that can survey if a vehicle is safe or not are more limited, and because paint baking processes vary. You have to bake the paint on an EV for longer at a lower temperature if you don't want to drop the battery pack, essentially.Having said that, when I went to insure my ID.3, I checked against the comparable model year Golf, and the insurance was 1% more expensive for the ID.3, so it didn't make much difference for me.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2024, 05:05:43 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on December 09, 2024, 05:03:20 pmthats amusing because it can get rigged to blow !Some duerte style cop that burns down chop shops

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2024, 05:39:35 am
content: You mean Duterte, right?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2024, 05:57:43 am
content: yeah that nut, like a crooked mega shady bat manthey handle things like its the year 5000BC

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2024, 07:23:13 am
content: Quote from: janoc on December 09, 2024, 02:53:51 pmProven ineffective - all that is needed is a simple middle-man. Or not even that - just sell the stolen copper and lie about its origin. But a middle-man who has a legitimate business helps tremendously to cover the tracks. And this happens all the time.The control system you suggest can only work if the copperitselfis somehow tagged. Because it is not, it is impossible to see it being of illegal origin. The petty crook can sell the stolen cable to a petty renovation entrepreneur for whom it is normal to sell used cable.QuoteOf course - it was not a serious suggestion. It was a reply to a post which claimed that their proven-ineffective solution is the only way. There are other ways and consider my post a thought experiment.For some reason, there are countries where crime like this is extremely low; where you can forget your wallet to pick it up later from the same spot, keep doors unlocked, and critical infrastructure stays in place (and is only damaged by maybe earthquakes, not petty thieves).Here we believe that more serious sentences (e.g., actual jailtime for serious crimes) does not help to fight crime. The USA is used as an example where long sentences + still lot of crime coexists. I disagree with the conclusion; USA is complex. Real life is more complicated than the populist "easy solution" of letting criminals freely do whatever they want without real consequences. Designing a real punishment system which targets really harmful forms of crime, is effective, and does not accidentally punish the innocent, is much more complicated. Choosing not to punish anyone in a modern European fashion is the easy way out from this dilemma, but is not working very well long-term. Doing nothing is easy, as is calling those who would like to see crooks in the jail "populists".

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2024, 07:26:18 am
content: I think they underestimate how much employers leverage criminal records in things like pay, hiring, etc, making it a very strong feedback loop, where each time through your more desperate then the first time. We always had that pesky issue of slavery or substitutes of it.And usually when you combine it with inflation, people are even poorer when they get out (how many companies expect you to 'rough it' for a while during a trial period before they give you livable money?), with less skills for their age, destroyed networking (tons of people are expected to get by on networking, they say you get ripped off if you don't for many professions), etc. The damage just caused by being 'away' is extremely severe, if you expect anything that has a semblance of a reasonable career.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2024, 12:06:00 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 10, 2024, 07:23:13 amYears ago I ran into someone who did something like this, laundered things through companies with high volume sales. Some of the sales were off the books so recycled stuff was returned as new for a refund in place of the stuff sold off-the-books. And that just one guy doing it, I'd hate to think of the overall amount of this that goes on.If you want a large-scale example of this happening, look up the dark fleet anchored outside Malaysian territorial waters laundering (if you can call it that) Iranian oil, and more recently Russian oil. This isn't a few spools of copper wire, this is 80,000 ton oil tankers colluding to avoid US sanctions.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2024, 04:49:11 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 09, 2024, 11:30:02 amThat should be a design requirement. It would stop the morons.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2024, 05:17:10 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 10, 2024, 07:23:13 amThe times I've mentioned this out loud here in Finland, and admitted that I do believe there are better cultures and worse cultures, that not all cultures are equal, I've been called horrible names and then excluded from the conversation. Nothing mattered after that.It doesn't matter that I always started by pointing out some of the worse features of the Finnish culture (especially related to alcohol). You May Not Consider Some Cultures Better and Others Worse; All Cultures Are Equal, seems to be a social law here (at least in highly educated circles).Yet, statistics do not lie: high trust and social cohesion matters, and all that is based on the local culture.Quote from: Siwastaja on December 10, 2024, 07:23:13 amWell put.When the culture is in flux, like it is in Finland, old solutions no longer work, and responses to problems has to change. It is not helped by the fact that traditionally, when statistics have shown that current approach does not work, we've stopped collecting those statistics, especially related to crime. In Nordic countries, thesocial stigmaof having been incarcerated was a huge factor in the efficacy of shorter sentences; nowadays, because of cultural change, that stigma does not exist anymore, and thus shorter sentences are less efficient (in preventing e.g. repeat offences).

author: Poroit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2024, 05:50:38 am
content: This add is a Ripper !!!!https://www.metalmenrecycling.com.au/4-great-reasons-why-copper-is-the-king-of-scrap-metal/#:~:text=Copper%20is%20one%20of%20the%20most%20profitable%20types%20of%20scrap,have%20is%20clean%20or%20mixed.I love the line :"Copper Scrap is Extremely Easy to Find"

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2024, 06:03:18 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on December 09, 2024, 06:43:25 amI did some work at a waste transfer station in a Perth Southern suburb. They have a "teaching and technology center" on site. Some time over a weekend the local lads hit it with a 4" grinder and removed all the external plumbing. Water and LPG. The caretaker arrived Monday morning to considerable flooding and empty LPG tanks. Same deal, cut off every pipe flush with the wall and slab.Shame they didn't use an old brushed 4" grinder when they cut the gas pipework.

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2024, 10:09:00 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 09, 2024, 05:27:08 pmCars could very well get geolocated and then refuse to work. Electronic parts off the car will probably have their own ID and will not work when installed to a different car until some code is entered.For well over a decade now some high precision machine tool builders have fitted accelerometers or such devices to their CNC machines that render the machines unfunctionable if the machine detects movement. The machines upon installation require a factory representative to come and enter a code. Earthquakes will set then off as well.This was to stop nuclear proliferation as the machines were accurate enough to be used for making parts for centrifuges for enriching uranium. The Japanese measuring instrument company Mitutoyo had their machines turn up in Iran and the company had sanctions applied to it.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2024, 10:35:42 am
content: Buying this 1kg spool of copper from Arrow for $4 last week felt like copper theft to me.https://www.arrow.com/en/products/610226/cnc-tech-llc?q=610226Digikey pricehttps://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/cnc-tech/610226/4924058

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2024, 01:46:34 pm
content: That almost looks like a pricing error. Or Arrow is desperate to get rid of stock.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 10:48:56 am
content: Quote from: Ranayna on December 11, 2024, 01:46:34 pmIt's real, just them trying to clear out stock for some reason.See the arrow thread about all their crazy discountshttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/arrow-electronics-having-50-75-off-mostly-nrnd-and-obsolete-componentshardware/new/#new