Siglent SDS2000X Plus - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 07:12:39 pm
content: New models similar to the SDS5000X form factor but with revised front panel layout and whispered release is early 2020.2 GSa/s, BW's70 to 500 MHzonly 100, 200 and 350 MHz models to western markets. BW upgrade option to 500 MHz available (for 2 channels to meet 500 MHz BW)Storage depth up to 200 Mpts/ch120,000 wfm/s2 or 4ch models.8 and 10 bit modes10" touch display with keyboard and mouse support16ch MSO optionStandard Decodes: IIC, SPI, UART, CAN, LIN.Optional: CAN FD, FlexRay, IIS, MIL-STD-1553B each $269(Sent and Manchester decodes added in FW V1.3.7R5 Nov20)2 Mpts FFT.1M and 50 Ohm inputs.Auto probe sense.Inbuilt 50 MHz AWG option $219Power Analysis option $269BW upgrade optionsReleased Jan 16 2020https://int.siglent.com/products-overview/sds2000xp/https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/SDS2102X Plus $ 999SDS2104X Plus $ 1399SDS2204X Plus $ 2199SDS2354X Plus $ 2999Upgrade SDS2354X Plus bandwidth to 500 MHz (Only two channels) $1,399, others available.Siglent video 70shttps://youtu.be/5Gl1O8YHUsoFirst look at the SDS2104X Plus by DefpomJune 3 2020Dave has a dive into the insides of the 350 MHz SDS2354X Plus, installs the 500 MHz BW option by way of a hack and finishes with a tangle with the 10 bit mode.Howardlong comparison video:X-Y mode from post #1432Note: since all above videos were done some firmware releases have been released that have addressed issues identified.POI listMainboard replacement:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4176037/#msg4176037Dot mode discussion, this post and following:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3993869/#msg3993869Performa01 Reporthttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds2000x-plus-bandwidth-aliasing-application-note/Member TK's LA adapter:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3079002/#msg3079002Probe autosense values:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3485070/#msg3485070DIY LA probe:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/Fan replacement.Reply #2939 and later.Curve tracer:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4421626/#msg4421626Hard case options:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2104x-hard-shell-carry-case-hc-1-363236/WiFi connectivity solutionhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4973206/#msg4973206DIY Deskew projecthttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/scope-probe-deskew-fixture-pcb-project/Encoder replacement:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg5997357/#msg5997357https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-electricalcomputer-engineer-student-test-bench-equipment-recommendations/msg4093888/#msg4093888Siglent SDS2000X Plus firmware webpage:https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=53

author: implor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 07:47:40 pm
content: Looks nice. Question is price. <$3500 for 500mhz and it's a killer.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 08:01:20 pm
content: Probe detection but not probe supply? Great compromise for the entry class but I guess the SDS2000X will be more a mid-range scope from Siglent's point of view.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 08:02:02 pm
content: Actual 10 bit or interpolation? Probably the latter.

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 08:55:31 pm
content: Will it have true pulse width measurement where you can set the mid-measurement references? Now all pulses are read at 50%. Also will the Cursor Control be easier to use the in some of their other scopes? I'm game for buying a new scope at the end of this year (expense it off) for my business, but I have been burned by Siglent last year, so I would need to get my hands on one before I decide to purchase it.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 09:15:43 am
content: Quote from: implor on November 13, 2019, 07:47:40 pmPrice aligns close to the 350 MHz SDS5034X or just a little less, so yes ~$3500 for SDS2504X Plus however at this early time it's only a best guess.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 09:28:27 am
content: Will be mine

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 09:46:16 am
content: Quote from: implor on November 13, 2019, 07:47:40 pmThe SDS2000X Plus is the successor of the SDS2000X, hence it is a 2000 class instrument and pricing will be accordingly. I can only speculate, but of course don't expect it to absolutely match the current SDS2000X line, since these are on sale already.Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on November 13, 2019, 08:01:20 pmThe SDS2000X series had automatic probe detection right from the start, so this is nothing new in this class.The SDS2000X Plus is a top entry level scope with regard to its hardware, but it will have many (most) of the current SDS5000X firmware features. In some instances it is already even more advanced! Together with the touch UI it can be considered to be the little brother of the SDS5000X much more than the big brother of the SDS2000X-E.Quote from: thinkfat on November 13, 2019, 08:02:02 pmPlease note that Siglent does not advertise this DSO as 10bit. There is a 10bit acquisition mode that is accomplished by oversampling and has a fixed 100MHz bandwidth.When I first heard about it, I have to admit that I thought the 10bit mode was just a marketing gag – until I got my hands on the first pre-production unit. This mode works amazingly well and believe it or not, is almost indistinguishable from a true 10bit ADC. DNL and INL of the existing 8bit ADC are quite obviously good enough to allow that sort of resolution enhancement without visual nonlinearities.The SDS200X Plus includes the first implementation of a vertical zoom feature, which is not available even in the SDS5000X (yet):SDS2354X+_Zoom_10bitHere we can see a sine acquired in 10bit mode at 20mV/div. In zoom mode, we have amplified the bottom end of the signal to 5mV/div and still get a super clean waveform without any jaggies.Quote from: daveyk on November 13, 2019, 08:55:31 pmPulse width measurement with user defined threshold level (Pulse width @ level) is not supported yet. I've made sure that this measurement (among others) is on the todo list for the SDS5000X and this means we can certainly get it for the SDS2000X Plus as well.The Cursors handling is much better with the touch screen UI. You can directly select the various cursors in a list and drag the cursors by touch control on top of that:SDS2354X+_Cursors

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 09:54:42 am
content: @Performa01: Does Siglent have any plans to get rid of the automatic memory depth setting? For me the automatic memory depth adjustment is a total productivity killer. It annoyed the hell out of me during the short time I had the SDS2000.And how about full memory decoding? It is about time Siglent addresses this too.

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 10:31:08 am
content: Looks like the Chinese website has pricing for the plus. If so, a comparison for that market could be made. From my calculations the 4 channel 100MHz model is around 1700 USD.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 06:29:55 pm
content: I assume 2GSa/s is only true for one channel or two at maximum. So, what is the sample rate for 4 channels?Actually, while 2GS/s could be considered enough for 500MHz I guess (even though I'd personally want at least 5GSa/s), 1GS/s or even less per channel would make the higher bandwidth somewhat questionable.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 09:28:13 pm
content: Quote2 GSa/s....hm-hm.What I don´t understand (in general) are the bandwith things starting with 70Mhz....why 70Mhz, is this a "magic" barrier….Also the 2-Ch/4-Ch thing.Why not 4-Ch and 100Mhz as the lowest entry…50 Ohm Inputs, thumbs upAlso the 2 Mpts FFT and inbuild AWG option plus power analyzis option could be a hint to a relationship to the SDS3000 platform.8bit and 10bit mode.....is this a benefit...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2019, 01:01:28 am
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on November 14, 2019, 06:29:55 pmTraditional architecture is a single ADC for 2 channels and dual ADC's for 4 channels so if they're 2 GSa/s sampling rate will be halved with 2 active channels on the same ADC.QuoteBased on the above explanation of Siglent's traditional architecture, 1 GSa/s of course.QuoteMost buyers of this class of scope (low mid range) will understand the tradeoff of sampling rate vs frequency (aliasing) and select sufficient a sampling rate for their frequencies of interest or be quite aware to use just one channel on each ADC.As rf-loop would say, there are no free lunches.

author: ResistorRob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2019, 01:45:19 am
content: Finally someone made a scope that checked all the boxes of what I am looking for. I really wanted something that one on the bottom rung of a mid-range scope 4 ch 100Mhz, touchscreen, 50 ohm inputs, MSO option, looks nice on the bench, etc!!I was hoping to get something at around $1k to $1.3k which is the max of my budget. I think the price is fair at $1.7k since I was looking at 8 inch screens and this is a 10 inch. I will just have to spend more time saving up. I think Siglent will sell a lot of these!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2019, 02:10:35 am
content: Quote from: ResistorRob on November 15, 2019, 01:45:19 amThere's some really good deals on the bit older 8" display SDS2304X, trouble is decode is optional and additional cost.https://siglentna.com/product/sds2304x-clearance/These have all the above specs you wanted except touch.

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2019, 03:24:32 pm
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on November 14, 2019, 06:29:55 pmTektronix was doing 2.5GS/S sampling and 300MHz, 20 years ago. Why is it so difficult for these new scopes to get to 2GS/s today? Yea, the Tek TDS3000 were and are damn expensive, but I can not believe those 2.5GS/S parts cost that much these days. I guess you are paying for the technology and development costs more than the parts.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2019, 04:51:21 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 14, 2019, 09:54:42 amThe short answer is no, sorry.What engineers want to do is capture a record that represents a certain timespan. What is easier and feels more natural:• Select the main timebase for the required total timespan and then adjust the zoom timebase for closer inspection of detailsor• Calculate the required memory depth from the required timespan and current sample rate, dig into the Acquisition menu to select the appropriate memory depth (provided it could be selected with similar fine granularity as the timebase) and then have to scroll back and forth through the buffer in order to inspect the entire acquisition?The zoom window supports math, automatic and cursor measurements as well as mask test.The maximal record length can be limited in order to reduce the sample rate and/or get more history segments.Any acquisition strategy that would hide a single sample from instant view would annoy the hell out ofme. Thankfully, Siglent will continue to follow PicoTech and LeCroy in this regard.We get a lot of feedback from professional Siglent users and I think it's most indicative that not one has ever questioned this acquisition strategy.Quote from: nctnico on November 14, 2019, 09:54:42 amThis is a (mis)leading question. While there are certain (protocol dependent) limits for the total number of table entries (bytes, words, double words, packets) which in turn obviously limits the maximum record length that can be fully decoded (at least if oversampling is low), not many apart from you would consider the following screenshot with a total of 45 decoded I2C messages asnotfull memory decoding:SDS2354X+_Digital_I2C_5Mpts_Serial_Start_3

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2019, 05:20:59 pm
content: Quote from: Performa01 on November 15, 2019, 04:51:21 pmYou (and Siglent) forgot one very simple use case: trigger on part of a signal and when that looks OK change the timebase to look at the rest of the signal (which was outside the screen during capture). I use this regulary during design verification. And this is much easier to achieve than you think: just set the oscilloscope to the maximum memory depth and leave it at that. I have my oscilloscopes set to the maximum memory depth 99.9% of the time. It is very handy to be able zoom out or pan left/right to examine the signal which was outside the screen. With Siglent's automatic memory depth I'd need to change the time base for each capture twice which is just time consuming and irritating. And why not have the maximum memory depth available? Otherwise the memory just sits there idle anyway.Quote from: Performa01 on November 15, 2019, 04:51:21 pmIt is not a misleading question. Ofcourse there is a limit to the buffer but (again) none of the A-brands needs to use zoom mode to show details of a message with the start of the message off-screen. Zoom mode eats screen real-estate and may impose limitations. As long as zoom is necessary decoding on Siglent scopes is just less useful.I know you do testing for Siglent but you should very seriously consider getting some other A-brand scopes in your lab and compare the Siglent scopes with these. You'll see the A-brands have a lot of tiny things which greatly improve useability and thus productivity. Siglent is moving forward but they still miss out on some of the basic stuff the A-brands have figured out for many years already. IMHO that is a shame because things like fixed memory depth and full memory decoding are deal breakers for the professional market.

author: edigi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2019, 05:33:15 pm
content: 2x 2GSa/s for 4Ch x 500Mhz, seriously?So far Siglent was aiming at least 2.5 times sampling rate (which is still the bare minimum only) and was not giving marketing gimmicks.I also don't see the point of so many DSO variants as Siglent has now.With proper pricing tons of SDS5000X and SDS2000X could have been sold for hobbyists and repair shops (for others all of these offerings are just entry level). I don't see how this kind of fragmented offerings help Siglent.How big of a jump is from 200 Mhz to 350Mhz or from 350Mhz to 500Mhz (that is not always working + let's not forget the shared controls) or from 1Mpts FFT to 2Mpts FFT?There should not be anything below 200 MHz in this category in my view.The 50 Ohm inputs are indeed welcome. I have mixed feelings about the 10 bits, good that finally they have also this (since probably it's just SW) but this is something that most people can live without (and would not pay much).Even having the money I could not decide, since I don't feel that this offering is future proof, especially with the given sampling rate. That's quite a show stopper. It should have been 2.5Gsa/s or more.I must still look further for a decent 500MHz DSO...Quote from: nctnico on November 15, 2019, 05:20:59 pmThat's an absolutely good point. Second me on this.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2019, 07:33:20 pm
content: Quote from: edigi on November 15, 2019, 05:33:15 pmSome will be phased out as their capabilities are low for the marketplace now.QuoteNothing new here, SDS1000X (not X-E), SDS2000, SDS2000X, SDS2000X-E and SDS5000X all have 50 Ohm inputs.QuoteSDS5054X ?@ Performa01Can you check total mem depth in History mode when in Decode ?

author: edigi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2019, 09:15:19 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on November 15, 2019, 07:33:20 pmIt's way out of my price range and anyhow roughly around that money one can buy a used but fully vendor checked Keysight MSOX3104T and while I'm certain that some if its specs are weaker but it's still a 1GHz scope.I'm not biased by brand or don't necessarily look for a brand new device (provided that it's not ages old) but do you think that it provides the same value?

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2019, 09:41:10 pm
content: Some folks seem to expect a fully fledged 500MHz DSO for dirt cheap. But the SDS2000X+ is just going to be an affordably priced 2000 series top entry level DSO/MSO. At 500MHz, we are entering midrange territory.What do the 2000 series of other (“A-brand”) manufacturers offer?I only list Keysight DSO-X 2000 and R&S RTB 2000, because LeCroy doesn’t have anything in this class.• Max. Bandwidth: Keysight 200MHz, R&S 300MHz• Max. Sample Rate: Keysight 2GSa/s, R&S 2.5GSa/s• Max. Memory: Keysight 1Mpts/ch, R&S 10Mpts/ch (160Mpts option)• Display: Keysight 8.5” non-touch, R&S 10” touch• FFT: Keysight 64kpts, R&S 128kptsGranted, R&S has the big advantage of the 10bit ADC here, but does the Siglent SDS2000X+ really look bad when it has350MHz bandwidthwith a500MHz option for half channel mode, 2GSa/s, 100Mpts/ch standard, 10” touchscreen, 2Mpts FFT and many features as standard that are paid options for the “A-brands”?Keysight offers 70, 100 and 200MHz models, R&S has 70, 100, 200 and 300MHz models. There are quite some below 200MHz, right?Siglent of all companies have too many variants? They offer only 200MHz for the bottom end SDS1202X-E, only 100 and 200MHz for the entry level SDS1004X-E, only 200 and 350MHz for the SDS2002X-E (a bridge device to the 2000 series for analog engineers, who want bandwidth at a low price and don’t need more than two channels) – and right now we do not even know what bandwidth variations of the SDS2000X+ we’ll actually get!The shared controls are a problem for the Siglent 2000+, but not R&S and LeCroy?I agree that it can be confusing, that there are some long obsolete DSOs still listed. The obvious reason is that there is still a demand for them in some countries.Anyway, it should be quite obvious that the SDS2000X+ is not going to be a fully fledged 500MHz DSO. But for people who only need that bandwidth occasionally and can make do with half the channels in these situations, this might be an attractive offer.Quote from: tautech on November 15, 2019, 07:33:20 pmNo matter whether it’s decoding or not, history is always close to the total memory size, i.e. 180~200Mpts per channel pair.

author: ResistorRob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2019, 11:30:11 pm
content: Quote from: tautechThe problem is "except touch"... that is the main feature I want

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2019, 12:37:03 am
content: Quote from: edigi on November 15, 2019, 09:15:19 pmSo is mySDS5104XSDS5054Xthat Dave tested as best value in the 1 GHz range.QuoteYeah I understand budget always dictates what we can stretch to so then it comes down to the feature set required.As always, one must do their homework.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2019, 07:36:59 am
content: Quote from: Performa01 on November 15, 2019, 09:41:10 pmHave you double checked this ?IIRC rf-loop said History in SDS1004X-E was in the order of 56 Mpts while officially their mem depth is just 14 Mpts x 2, 14 for each ADC. So as I understand it History depth is unrelated to official mem depth and generally a good bit bigger.Or have I got this all wrong ?