Renesas Synergy - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: sambran
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 11:52:23 pm
content: Anyone played around with the Renesas Synergy MCUs? Is there a clear benefit to Renesas over the common ARM MCUs (NXP, ST etc.)?From what I gather the MCUs are far more expensive than the competition, Renesas claims it is on account of the software and development tools included. It also seems like, at least at this point, there is not much available from third parties.I tried the GUIX "Hello World" example and it seems like there is a learning curve to it and I am trying to decide if it is worth the effort. I didn't love the fact that IDE crashed a few times and that the libraries generate many of compiler warnings.I'd love to hear others opinion about this.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 02:09:52 pm
content: I thought Renesas Synergy was a software platform, not a line of MCUs.

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 02:37:06 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 11, 2016, 02:09:52 pmThey're calling it a "platform": the devices, development tools, RTOS and middleware.

author: ealex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 04:06:33 pm
content: I'm using Renesas at work ... and I will stay away from their products in my personal projects.At least the SH2 ( automotive ... ) core and associated tools are horrible:- debugger hardware crashes- HEW debugger crashes / freezes when you least expect it- compiler is bad and linker is horrible ... I've spent several hours hunting strange stuff done by the compiler.Also, for the SH2 core - it does not have MPU or internal flash -> your code is in the same ram as you data / stack -> writing out of an array is always fun to debug when it destroys random code.Also, no GCC or any kind of open-source tools support -> you have to use their tools.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 04:35:41 pm
content: The MCUs the Syngery platform are for use the M7 core, so if the header and debug interfaces are sorted out, GCC should work.

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 05:26:20 pm
content: Quote from: ealex on October 11, 2016, 04:06:33 pmWe're using the H8S/SX, and discovered that HEW became much more stable when forced to run on only one CPU core.QuoteRenesas have provided GCC distributions (via contractors) since about 2002 or so, currently available atgcc-renesas.com. The toolchains integrate with HEW, and e2studio if supported. However, since the SH line is not being developed further, the compiler hasn't been updated in three years.

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 05:31:43 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 11, 2016, 04:35:41 pmAll current products use either the M0+ or M4 cores. But the point stands, if you don't want to, you should not be forced to use anything provided by Renesas. ARM defines the debugger interface, so unless Renesas have deliberately broken it, that should not be an issue.

author: ealex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 05:46:12 pm
content: andersm: thanks for the GCC link - somehow i missed it.also, i'll try to force 1 core to HEW - wasted 2 hours today for a 10 minutes debug session ...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 07:06:50 pm
content: Quote from: andersm on October 11, 2016, 05:31:43 pmMany ARM MCUs have features which go beyond the debug hardware defined by ARM. I assume you should always be able to get at the basic stuff with standardised tools, but you might miss out on other useful stuff.

author: sambran
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 10:09:39 pm
content: Quote from: ealex on October 11, 2016, 04:06:33 pmThey actually use GCC and from what I gather the only other compiler option is IAR and that is only through the Renesas (eclipse based) IDE.

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 10:29:06 pm
content: Quote from: sambran on October 14, 2016, 10:09:39 pmIf you want to use their middleware platform, maybe. If you're just interested in the MCUs, any Cortex-M compiler will do, it's just more work.

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2016, 12:46:20 pm
content: Renesas just sent out ads for thisBasics of the Renesas Synergy™ Platformebook. Registration required for downloading.

author: discopope
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 08, 2016, 04:35:21 am
content: The book is online and downloadable now without registration, along with some examples:https://www.renesas.com/en-us/products/synergy/book.htmlDistributor Glyn gives out free copies in "dead tree" form, at least in Germany, they have a cheap evaluation board for the S3 too.If you are planning a synergy-based project, ask them for quotes of the MCUs, turned out I payed way less for the S7 used in myproject than I would if I had ordered at other suppliers.So far I can say I got my hardware up and running pretty fast, I tested Ethernet, USB, CAN and a lot of other peripherals successfullywith modified example code. But up to now I haven't done more complex software on the platform.What I like is the "all from one" approach, you don't need to plug things together from different sources, you have one company incharge for all problems that may arise. They promise to fix things in limited time and according to their "Product Longevity Program"the MCUs (in the QFP cases) are available at least up to 2031.The risk is limited as you have no costs for the whole tool chain. If it turns out it does not fit your needs, even after a longerevaluation time, you have payed for some chips that you would have bought a few bucks cheaper elsewhere.

author: ^_^
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 02:40:45 pm
content: They gave away for free some good stuff (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/renesas-electronics-america/YSSKS7G2E30/YSSKS7G2E30-ND/5975022) on the electronica fair.Worth visiting.Anyway, that's pretty troublesome if their IDE is that bad. That could indicate the chips themselves could be buggy too...Well, I'm waiting for some free time to play with the board to see if it's as good as they advertised.I've heard Renesans is pretty popular in Automotive and household stuff.

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 03:30:03 pm
content: Quote from: ^_^ on December 16, 2016, 02:40:45 pmWhy? They're not made by the same people.

author: ^_^
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 04:16:11 pm
content: Sure, but it's the approach that matters and what the company presents.It's the same when you see some typos they have in the mentioned book.If I had seen more of them I'd get uncomforable in putting my trust in a company that prints a book (got a hardcopy) as a draft ;-)Anyway, gonna check that e2studio someday and hopefully i'll remember to post smth here afterwards.

author: DeepBlu
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 18, 2016, 05:44:01 pm
content: Quote from: andersm on November 08, 2016, 12:46:20 pmThanks Kindly for the link. Renesas Synergy Platform is only about a year old, the software is improving (as more folks work with it). Personally found the platform interesting as it is used in the Automotive Industry. Renesas products are rather high end, with so many competitors and various IDE's, the Synergy Platform is rather attractive as it moves to the next level by using a more GUI based solution as things get more complex. In the future, more company's will follow this scheme as it is more intuitive, just the learning curve is steep and they are trying, with Synergy, to reduce this curve.

author: ^_^
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2016, 07:59:11 pm
content: Quote from: evb149 on December 18, 2016, 06:52:16 pmThe Synergy is software-oriented. When you buy Renesans Synergy MCU you can use their software for free. You get Express Logic ThreadX RTOS and other software stuff for free. It includes USBX, GUIX, tcp/ip stacks, jpeg, etc etc. A lot of code.The main idea behind Renesans Synergy is that the chip itself INCLUDES the cost of the software. As long as you use their Synergy MCUs!Pretty cool approach, this is what differs them from other vendors. They say that those libraries are superior to others, easily integratedBTW. the code for the whole software is closed, however when debugging it does decrypt some parts of it in realtime.

author: DeepBlu
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 20, 2016, 08:01:50 pm
content: evb149 Create an account and get the e2 studio, install it and you can work with it to become familiar w s/w.Next consider the purchase of the SK-S7G2 Starter kit (Digikey, etc). What you need is in the box.The board has and on board Segger debug chip(specific to the platform) so no extra adapters needed.They use RTOS free ver, if you wish look for a USED copy of Real-Time Embedded Multithreading usingThreadX 2nd ed or > from Edward L Lamie at the Amazon. Get a copy that has the CD.That's pretty much it. Note if you add devices to the dev board you will need external power.Note the further you get involved you may need to pay for IP code and if you really get involved withRTOS it can lead to having to lic out that OS. This you have to study, but for the intial, no further $.Note like any other thing out there there is a cost factor. The Synergy Platform is rather interestingand like most things you have to learn it. Once you connect an authentic dev bd to the s/w it will thanbe tied to the original acct you used to get the e2 studio. This is the simplest explanation I can give.The rest is up to you. Remember, all you need for step 1 is create an acct and get the software, ck itout and if it interest's you enough than look around for the board. Take it from there to where ever...

author: ^_^
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 06:33:53 pm
content: Yo,before I've said I'll post something after I try Renesas Synergy and well - here I am.Last two weeks I've been playing with SK-S7G2 board (and RX700 Revelation Kit, but that one is not part of Synergy).I've mixed feelings overall.I like the starter kit board. What I've noticed first is the amount of pins routed out. That's handy.However, the on-board peripherals could be richer and connected to Synergy's message.They could add microSD slot and maybe a potentiometer with knob? That'd fit the HMI and would provide nice demo for USBX mass storage with uSD.Also, the board has BLE without any demo (yet) provided.Kind of feels like "let's put BLE, everybody's crazy about IoT, we gotta have it too!".Getting back to Synergy...I've used e2studio. First launch I got a crashThen I had to reinstall, because something was not working even though I was following the Synergy book instructions.After it was able to compile, going through Blinky examples was easy and fun. Except the one that uses USB CDC, but that was Windows-driver-stuff issues, so I'll forgive.Unfortunately, the projects in the Gallery are not updated to newest Synergy package and that's a torment.So you're left with installing everything from the book (older packages) or trying to figure out how to update on your own.I'd say getting onto that platform is rather tiring.Renesas could look at how Cypress does stuff and learn from them (videos how to get started, different applications, many examples).How's good even the best platform if you don't know how to learn to use it?However, building an RTOS application once you get a grip of it is easy!Adding threads along with their queues or semaphores is just few mouse clicks and settings. The same goes for complex USB stack etc - it's all simplified.I'd say it's a nice start in RTOS, surely better than typing everything (like STM32 FreeRTOS?).The question is - as one dives deeper and needs more and more control over what's happening, will there be a necessity to code everything anyway?Or does Synergy allow so thorough configuration? - I don't know.Other stuff I've noticed:- functions are often just definitions pointing elsewhere, so you don't see the function's arguments right away, but have to dive in - that's annoying- didn't see a proper documentation at the function's header, so you have to keep some pdfs opened with the explanations- sometimes there are warnings from inside the Synergy core that you can't do anything about- debugger in e2studio works perfectly, showing where the threads are at etc., looking at variables and complex structures just works (in TI's CCS for structs I've often experienced problems like if it didn't know how to read the memory).To sum up, I'd say that this platform has potential, but needs more example-oriented content for freshmen (bigger community would be also a great plus, atm it seems like a niche).The features are there, the higher layer framework is there, the low layer drivers are ready - but how to use that all together in my application?To compare - I remember TI for some MSP430 had an example for *every* peripheral the MCU had, along with some variations (like SPI master/slave, SPI with/without DMA, SPI with interrupt/pooling).So, as Synergy's message is "let's reduce time to market"/"make software portable" and so; I'd also like them to say "let's reduce learning curve and make it easy to grasp the whole MCU".