No more Altium license server access :'( - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 01:21:06 am
content: Found out last night the hard way that I no longer have access to my alma mater's Altium license server.So now I'm really in a predicament:1.) Drop $5.5k for a perpetual license and hope AD12 isn't a bag of bug-ridden suck ass, or2.) Fuck Altium on the principle merit and go with another PCB CAD.IDK why they even sell the $1k perpetual license; it's worthless without PCB layout.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 01:22:43 am
content: Why not.Their system broken down again today?Dave.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 01:29:44 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 19, 2012, 01:22:43 amNaw, I've simply outlived my welcome, so to speak; that's what I get for doing layout when the university is on winter break...so discovered.Asked a buddy who still had access to Altium but doesn't use it and he can still access the license no problem, so I've determined that the lack of access is likely hardware MAC-specific.

author: McMonster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 01:45:32 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on December 19, 2012, 01:29:44 amMACs don't go beyond a network segment (the nearest switch or router), it's most commonly IP or license key based. Even if you're not a student and/or just not eligible, why not ask the university people for access? It may not be strictly legal, but they may just give you access for hobby use.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 02:14:44 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on December 19, 2012, 01:21:06 amOption 3.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 03:30:41 am
content: Quote from: McMonster on December 19, 2012, 01:45:32 amIt's not IP-related because 1.) access was denied as of yesterday (even tried again this morning), 2.) VPNing into the university's network is a no-go (which factors out a domain restriction being implemented), and 3.) my buddy who is also alumnus still has access (but doesn't do PCB design).Nor is it license key based because there's no license on my computer; it's on a server located somewhere on campus and is 100% legit.Furthermore, I can connect to the license server, but it no longer recognizes my computer as a valid user. Therefore, the block is explicitly directed at my computer. So the only way that can happen is via hardware MAC (as to which MAC, i.e. hard disk, network adapter, etc., I don't know), which is a trivial matter for Altium Designer to packetize and send as data rather than sensing end-user MAC via data link layer.Quote from: McMonster on December 19, 2012, 01:45:32 amBecause it won't be just for hobby use. My company won't pay for it either...at least not yet (as a recent graduate and the only design engineer, demonstrating the light to old timers takes time). But even if they did, there would always be that ethical dilemma of using company furnished software for personal endeavors.Quote from: Psi on December 19, 2012, 02:14:44 amAs much as I'd like to, I'm trying to stay professional and stray away from old habits. But for $5.5k, I'm liable to buy myself a go-fuck-yourself-Altium sticker and actively seek alternatives.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 03:45:37 am
content: P.S. Guess who has access to the license server again...WTF?!?! All this stress today about not having AD has made me realize just how dependent I've become. Even called up my bank and got $5.5k pre-approved personal loan just in case. It's pathetic...really.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 03:50:50 am
content: Maybe the server just hit its license limit and wouldn't let more people back on.There could be an assignment due or something, so everyone was using it.

author: JoannaK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 03:51:32 am
content: Is Altium that good system? I know that a lot of people use it and have got things done, but the price (over 5K) .. Ah well, I frankly have no idea how much decent lisence of Pads costs these days.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 03:54:31 am
content: Quote from: JoannaK on December 19, 2012, 03:51:32 amYes, Altium really is very good.But no software is good enough to justify 5k for a hobbyest.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 04:09:12 am
content: Quote from: Psi on December 19, 2012, 03:50:50 amThe entire university is on winter vacation. Besides, I can see every computer currently connected to the license server, and it's just little old me and a lab computer that wasn't shut down...and believe me, it's not a limit issue.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 04:30:11 am
content: Cloud server gone and falled over......... Bring back the old DONGLE......You know, you probably could look around and find an "upgraded" version with the ET PHONE HOME parts of the code replaced by NOP's................. I am sure somebody with a flakey connection and good coding skills has done it.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 05:39:00 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 19, 2012, 04:30:11 amTo quote myself...Quote from: slateraptor on December 19, 2012, 03:30:41 am

author: perfect_disturbance
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 05:54:22 am
content: So let me get this. Stealing from altium is unprofessional and not acceptable. Stealing from your university absolutely acceptable?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 06:39:11 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on December 19, 2012, 01:21:06 amI wouldn't, if you can't get fixes for it without subscription payments then you could be stuck with a turd.I have not heard of a widely praised "stable" version since they started this whole frequent update thing.And that's what they bet on, that you'll fork out for maintenance to get bug fixes.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 06:47:42 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on December 19, 2012, 03:30:41 amWhy?I've always thought that's a universally accepted perk (by both parties) of being employed by a large company, you have access to better tools.So long as it doesn't get in the way of your job, and it's done in personal time of course, no problemDave.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 08:17:47 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 19, 2012, 06:47:42 amThe laws differ, but at least here, that is strictly illegal. You are using company resources for your personal gain. That is in principle, unethical and illegal. That said, many companies realize that:- there is not wear and tear on software or instruments just for using them- hobby projects are satisfying, and the employees are developing a competing products or running a side job (at least not very often...)- the hobby projects are very educating. The employees learn, are better in their day jobs and might come up with good ideas of improvements for the companyIn my previous job, I was leading a group of engineers. I made the house policy:- I had to be aware of all. No "what the heck is this?" or "why are we out of x?" moments.- No breaking company license agreements. We had some cool stuff, but in some cases, there was restrictions on how and where it could be used.- No side jobs. For a company selling development services it is not ok to do development of your own using company resources. -Or even using your own stuff (no compete), for that matter. Of course, exceptions could be negotiated in special cases.- The company has the right to first bid, if any cool stuff emerges (by law here anyway, but made clear)- Within reason, the company pays the components. Also, ok to use whatever parts we had in the lab. I wanted the guys to learn.The guys liked it, the policy was not abused and some cool stuff did came out .

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 08:30:44 am
content: I really don't know why they don't release, say, a $55 hobbyist version. A hobbyist isn't going to put up $5.5k (well, most aren't...), so they may as well have a slice of the pie. It could be limited to 2 or 4 layers with X pins/pads. Or perhaps even have all the features of the full version but businesses are not allowed to use it or it may not be used for commercial gain.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 08:55:16 am
content: Quote from: perfect_disturbance on December 19, 2012, 05:54:22 amAllow me to correct your interpretation: I'm simply exploiting the resources at my disposal as recent alumnus in an attempt to maximize ROI. Stealing? Wrong word...there's nothing to be stolen.Quote from: EEVblog on December 19, 2012, 06:47:42 amSadly, my personal home lab is far more equipped than both my company's non-existent lab and sub-contractor's sorry excuse for one.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 09:22:07 am
content: That's why I have switched to DipTrace. It's sometimes cumbersome, sometimes lacking features which i really liked about Altium but still: now I am using free version, because I don't earn with it, but eventually when I decide to run my own business, I will be able to afford the commercial license without problem. With Altium it would be rather steal from them (warez) or drop their software and learn something else. Since i want to run as legit as possible, I figured I'd just better switch to another tool now when I have no time constraints.Bye, Altium. Ur software rocks, ur management sucks :/

author: Otatiaro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 10:31:26 am
content: Hello,Need advice here too ...I'm now working with Eagle mainly, but learning Altium Designer when I can ... I asked the French distributor of Altium for a quotation, the license is 3995€ and the yearly maintenance is 1750€.That means every two years you paiy one more license, never seen that before (I'm also using Altium TASKING for ARM IDE, license cost is about 2k€ but maintenance is "only" 350€ a year ...).But for TASKING they release one version every few months (not adding much in fact, I'm considering switching to Atollic because I may have to work on Freescale Vybrid chips and TASKING does not handle Cortex-A5 not dual core).To be honnest, a customer offered to pay me a license for Altium (and SolidEdge ST5), but I said I'd pay the yearly maintenance ... that was before I know I have to pay half the license every year.So my questions are ...- I still have the option to refuse the maintenance, and pay "only" 3995€ to get AD, is it viable ? They said I still can take the maintenance later ...... but I'd have to pay the previous years too (say if I want the maintenance after 3 years, I'll have to pay the fee for the 3 years, which is ... well, more than the license itself ...)- Do I have other options ? Eagle is now quite limited for me, especially on routing stuff (no push, etc, havn't try the "follow me" option yet, but had a demonstration by Eagle Team and was not that impressed), and I really like the 3D part of Altium, both for sending "meaningfull" pictures to the customer, and to be able to cross check that PCB footprints matches the 3D model (especially when the model comes from the manufacturer, e.g. Molex). That's why I'd need a SolidEdge ST5 license too (which is 2800€ without maintenance, or 3300€ with the first year of maintenance).I'm also investing on FPGA these days, and it seems Altium has some tools related to FPGA development ...Thomas.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 12:37:15 pm
content: Quote from: Otatiaro on December 19, 2012, 10:31:26 amOn the surface they are ok, and quite novel. But when you get to any serious FPGA work, it's a case of the emperor has no clothes.Hardly anyone uses the FPGA tools in Altium in practice, and their support is way behind on new chips.I would recommend you stick with the vendor tools for everything (which you have to use anyway, under Altium)Dave.

author: mstevens
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 03:12:16 pm
content: Quote from: slateraptor on December 19, 2012, 08:55:16 amUhmmmmm... yeahhhhh... technically it's stealing. Perhaps you should look up the definition. ...The definition typically states something along the lines of "taking without the owner's permission." From the discussion and your own words it seems you are no longer at or affiliated with the University other than being an alumnus. Generally when you leave a University, you give up your right to use University resources; even most University IDs state on them that the ID is property of the University and must be returned to the University.So the question is... since "there is nothing to be stolen.", if you contact the Administrator of the University's Altium License server and ask "Do I have permission to continue to use this license server?" Would that Administrator reply in the affirmative? If not, clearly you are stealing!A main quality that separates TRUE engineers from the rest of the world is their integrity. Does anyone know why it is important to have integrity as a REAL Scientist or Engineer?Do you think golf would be a cool sport if players had no integrity?Further, while it is pretty offensive to lie to everyone else, one should never lie to themselves!! Are you sure you are not stealing??Sure I live in a glass house, but at least I PAID for my Altium License.

author: dfnr2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 03:50:57 pm
content: Quote from: slateraptor on December 19, 2012, 08:55:16 amIt's not quite kosher. The school likely gets an educational discount, and the intention is that the software be used for educational purposes. Accessing the software for hobbyist use is harmless in a practical sense, as long as it's not depriving some student of access, because you're not likely to buy a full license for hobbyist use. But it is ethically right on the borderline.If you think hard about it, you can see that using the access for commercial projects is actually crossing that line--it's using an educational discount license for commercial work, depriving Altium of the commercial license revenue. Going through a university discount license rather than an emulated license on a doctored copy is technically diffferent, but really ethically the same.Regarding using work software for personal (hobby) use--I have seen that done everywhere I worked, and it is pretty much accepted. Using workplace resources for startup operations (even noncompeting) is another story.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 04:11:59 pm
content: Quote from: JoannaK on December 19, 2012, 03:51:32 amPads begins at 15k... And thats without schematic, simulation or anything.Altium is dead cheap. It's the cheapest of em all. Cadence , mentor , zuken and altium are the big 4. And altium is the lowest orice. No mucking with options either. One price gets you everything.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 04:16:14 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 19, 2012, 08:30:44 amIf you are a legal student and can show you student id card they will give you a full blown, 4 year license for 100$.How's that for a deal. Restrictions: no commercial use, support is self-help. Otherwise no limits. So it's not crippleware.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 04:24:45 pm
content: Quote from: Otatiaro on December 19, 2012, 10:31:26 am1750$ maintenance... Not 1750 euro. Your distri is bullshitting you. I just paid my maintenance. 1750$And your buy includes 1 year maintenance. You can drop maintenance afterwards, but if you pick back up you pay the delta.Quotesave yourself a truckload of money and buy a Rhino3D licence. 999$ and it works perfect. I use this in combination with altium. I import step files from manu , manipulate them in rhino ( like shelling or color changes) send to altium. Take altium step and do the reverse. Rhino reads and writes any 3d cad format out there and allows you to do any kind of model work.

author: Otatiaro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 05:01:29 pm
content: Hello,Seems the $/€ rate is pretty volatile depending on who is doing the conversion ... even 1750$ is 1400€, delta is the maintenance fee for TASKINGAnd the 3995€ does not cover the first year of maintenance, it is 5750€ to get the licence and the first year of maintenance.I'll take a look at Rhino 3D.If I can get a better deal through another distributor, why not ... if you know one.Thomas.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 10:23:03 pm
content: why deal with distri's ? Buy directly from altium !I just looked at my last quote from Dec13 2012:1750$ renewal fee for a 1-seat,Single Site, Standalone VersionNew license : 5,495$ includes 1 year maintenance.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2012, 11:40:52 pm
content: So, what, you have to pay to keep using software?Do you get updates with that??I do not understand, you do not pay subscription for premium software such as Photoshop, so why is their a subscription on Altium?At work, I have to deal with Cadence OrCAD. That has quite a few quirks. Doesn't crash that much though, just lots of very weird bugs.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2012, 12:30:12 am
content: No you don't have to pay if you don't want to. Software licence is perpetual but you don't get any updates. that's all.The same as with any other software. if a new version of photoshop is released you can buy the upgrade for a reduced fee. the cost of going from PS-CS4 to PS-CS5 is half of going from PS-CS4 to PS-CS6 .. you pay the skipped upgrades.That's what altium is giving you. Since they release updates very frequently it comes as a yearly subscription.In the end it's the same thing. you pay a small incremental fee to always have the latest version. There are no minor or mayor versions. Every build includes new things as well as bugfixes. in photoshop new things are only introduced in major upgrades. Altium continuously introduces new things.but as i said, you don't have to pay if you are not interested. if a year from now you want to roll-up to the latest version they ding you for the missed time, just like photoshop dings you for the missing intermediate versions. actually adobe is now also moving to a system where you lease per month...At least your altium licence is perpetual if you stop paying... adobe's is not. stop paying and kiss it goodbye.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2012, 03:45:22 am
content: Quote from: mstevens on December 19, 2012, 03:12:16 pmOh, get off your moral high horse and don't presume to question my integrity; your "TRUE" and "REAL" aphorisms are quite banal and makes me wonder if your idea of "cool" involves wearing a certain pinky ring.First of all, you don't even have a clue as to what exactly I'm entitled to. Alumni are entitled to the same privileges and campus resources as regular students for 1 year after graduation, to include userID, e-mail, VPN access, services, etc. In other words, if I had access to it as an undergrad, then I legitimately have access to it now. Second, I neither signed nor agreed to policy stating that I must surrender all license privileges upon graduating. If my alma mater receives some sort of discount from Altium for their bulk purchase, then that contract is between the university and Altium, not between me and the university. Furthermore, there is no "FOR ACADEMIC USE ONLY" limitation attached to my installation. Third, I have de facto paid for access to this license server in the form of tuition and lab fees; the fact that you were ass raped for an independent license doesn't negate the fact that I've paid the required dues to my alma mater, which in turn paid the Altium piper pimp. So I stand firm in my original disposition. Do I feel like I'm playing the system a bit more than your average engineering student? Without a doubt. But quite frankly, you can bet your top dollar that I'm going to milk the crap out of these hind tits for all they're worth.And no, my student ID ismy property(or co-owned by my bank had I opted to activate it as a debit card),governedby (read NOT owned by or property of) university rules and regulations, and nowhere in their bylaws does it state that the ID is property of the university, which should be obvious after mentioning that these IDs can be linked directly to a private bank account.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2012, 04:06:13 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 19, 2012, 10:23:03 pmOdd. I called Altium NA direct and they referred me to a regional reseller whose website hadn't been updated in years, who in turn didn't return my call and pawned me off to someone else who left a message 22 hours after the fact.Curiously, I stumbled upon this article from April 2009http://www.pcbdesign007.com/pages/zone.cgi?a=49534In summary, the price of AD has increased by ~38% since 2009. And for what?

author: perfect_disturbance
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2012, 04:16:06 am
content: I never told you what to do I just found the distinction you drew peculiar as both behaviours seem the same to me.I also think its strange that you feel your use of you universities licence server is legitimate but when it went down you didn't feel entitled enough to call and ask to have it restored.

author: mstevens
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2012, 04:43:15 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on December 20, 2012, 03:45:22 amLet's see... hmm my credentials. I have and BSEE from one of the top 5 EE curriculums in the US and working on a MSEE from the same. Further, I am employed at that same University. My job... well I do systems administration including having ran various license servers for lots of different products. I am also hold several MS certifications including being an MCT. So I am pretty familiar with various legalities involving University policies as well as software licensing.If you were not stealing and did not believe you were, you would not have posted your initial post. You would have contacted the admin of the license server and asked them to resolve your problem. One can do what one wants. I just get EXTREMELY perturbed when someone is wrong, know they are wrong, and then have the audacity to try to justify it. If you are wrong just sit silently...I am cool with that but don't proceed to try to convince others that you are right!!If your assertions are correct as to your having access to the software then email the admin of the Altium server and ask them if you should still have access and could they tell you what the problem was. Then post their response and I will STFU. Otherwise shoot your line of BS somewhere else cause I'm not buying it.Now I'll wait for the standard "I don't have anything to prove to you!" response to which those who are not so truthful always resort.Tell you what how about disclosing your alma mater. So that we all can see what the University policy is for your ID; it should be public knowledge that is contained on their website. ....again with the "I don't have anything to prove."BTW I own an Altium license because I can afford it. I did not have to borrow the money for it and I have own my license well over 10 years now. If you can't afford it there are other packages you can use. I question your judgment, when you would go out an borrow money for the package; particularly since you are a recent graduate. I just went back an read your through your posts, what you are doing is probably not legal, but it DEFINITALY IS NOT ETHICAL. You are using an .edu license for a private for profit company. ... and you don't even have shame enough to deny it!!!! WOW... There truly are all kinds of people in the world.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2012, 06:44:20 am
content: Well, in industrial setting, $5.5k per seat is a low to medium cost tool. Mentor package is something in the order of $18k.And the most extreme is CR-5000 from Zuken. It's recognized by many companies as the best software, with Cadence and Mantor being a level below that... Including price - 50k Euro per seat. And there is NO demo or trial. They probably figured that is you don't know what it does, and cannot arrange pricate demonstration by a representative, then you for sure don't need it

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2012, 12:14:37 pm
content: why dont you just download it lol?u gotta be high if u pay 5 grand for that

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2012, 12:19:00 pm
content: Quote from: poorchava on December 20, 2012, 06:44:20 amlets offer a 60,000$ cad package and not offer ANY demonstrations. You gotta buy it to try it.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2012, 09:24:55 pm
content: FWIW, there isn't much of anything in the way of PCB design that I can't do with the free TinyCAD and FreePCB programs from Sourceforge. Initial learning is painful, but it is for any PCB software. No stupid proprietary files and no significant pin or layer limits. It will work with an on-line router if you need that. Sure it's not a full blown commercial package, but it works and doesn't cost $15k.

author: JoannaK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2012, 10:31:02 pm
content: Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on December 20, 2012, 09:24:55 pmIF (and only if) the layout is so simple that you don't need any High speed signaling (like PCI-E or Fast ethernet etc) nor any super high dencity stuff (=stick on hand solderable parts) while keeping plenty room for cheap_*** autorouter, then any imaginable cad package will do. Heck, most of those today's OpenHW boards could be made with Tape-transfers (pre-computer days) or deco-dalo pens.But, try to make matched impedance microstrips and huge FPGA:s fanouts with some Eagle, and you'll realize why companies buy those tools. The price of layout/routing person's time, the ability to keep all HS-rules at check real time, testing for manufacturing. Mistakes will become so expensive (test, debug, respin, + all delays), that good program justifies the investment made.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2012, 10:31:32 pm
content: Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on December 20, 2012, 09:24:55 pmSome people make boards with 3 resistors in through hole, some people make boards with 5000 parts of which half are BGA and have 500+ pins.The right tool for the right job ...@achmed99 : In the professional CAd world this has been going on for years.High-end CAD software cannot be bought, only leased.You need to pay your licence every year. no pay = no license. And some of that stuff is mindbogglingly expensive. IC schematic and layout tools cost millions of dollars per licence. And cough it up every year...This is normal in this kind of software.Besides we are evolving to a ' Software as a service' model. Microsoft ha this for Office , Adobe already has it for all their products. You are always up -to-date and you pay only for what oyu use. Fair deal.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 21, 2012, 02:53:04 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 20, 2012, 12:30:12 amNo, with much software it works that you get free patches and bug fixes for a certain period, and/or for .x version upgrades or something like that.All of my video editing software works like this for example.Altium completely ditched that model. If you buy the perpetual license, you don't get a single update or bug fix after purchase, so you are stuck with whatever version you happen to buy at the time. And Altium is famous for having some versions having such serious bugs, it's almost completely unusableDave.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2012, 06:05:41 am
content: Of course, you can buy a perpetual license and subscription to keep it up-to-date. I've been on that model for years, but I think I'll let the subscription fall this summer.

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2012, 11:46:45 am
content: I hate the software licensing model, Autodesk is another company famous for licensing and subscriptions. There was hope a few years ago when a user took Autodesk to court and the court ruled that you have to either advertise the product as a lease or a sale, that you couldn't sell someone something then still claim ownership. The ruling would have made it so that companies had to clearly state what they were doing and not hide it in all the details where people assumed they were getting updates as well. It also would have made it so that you could sell your copy to another user, including older versions you no longer had a use for, it was a sale . Autodesk brought in the lawyer heavy weights and got it over turnedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernor_v._Autodesk,_Inc.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2012, 08:55:56 pm
content: Quote from: JoannaK on December 20, 2012, 10:31:02 pmAbsolutely true. And if one needs that stuff one had better be in a position to make the investment, or the business will fail for many reasons because it's undercapitalized.

author: JoannaK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2012, 09:06:12 pm
content: Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on December 21, 2012, 08:55:56 pmI know.. 15K is such a big amount, it'll takes a lot projects to cover the cost (+ upgrades) with uncertain markets there are at them moment. I have over 5 years of PADS exp (they were independent, before Mentor) but never owned license of my own. Now, the idea using eagle or Kikad hurts, testing those feels like jumping back a Decade at least.I kinda wish I could remember that PCBcad I used with Amiga.. It was good/fast SW and IIRC it was made by some Aussie?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2012, 09:17:50 pm
content: Quote from: JoannaK on December 21, 2012, 09:06:12 pmThat is the problem with all those programs out there. They are designed by software programmers that have zero understanding of, and zero experience doing, a real pcb layout. they implement features from the wrong perspective. And they are invariable just 'another' vector drawing program that has no understanding of how elements belong together.Many of these programs are no better than pen and paper. If you were to make a footprint library in , let's say a free program like inkscape , you could do perfect layout work and be at the same level , if not more advanced than what geda, kicad and others give you ( apart form the netlist then, i'm talking the manipulations that can be done with the primitives ).The power of the real cad programs comes from their ability to do realtime DRC , rule driven design and interactive push-n-shove . I don not want to sit there endleslly moving little segments of track and then doublechecking them. the bloody damn machine needs to do that. it is immeasurably faster than me doing all the math work. i feed it the rules and it does the tedious stuff.and if that costs 1700$ a year , so be it. i got no problem with that.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2012, 09:41:16 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 20, 2012, 10:31:32 pmWith 5500$ total price/yr, 250 working days/yr each 8hrs/day Altium costs only 2.75$ per hour.Let's imagine Altium would have such service for private people, e.g. without technical supportand no commercial use - with a 1$ per hour of use.