What is Norton going to do to protect its users from the CIA? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 04:14:31 pm
content: I just went to the Norton website to see what their stance is on CIA hacking. Are they going to protect their users?Since I found no official press release, I went to their forums. I found this forum:https://community.norton.com/en/forums/cia-revelations-should-we-be-worriedA user by the name of peterweb seems to be white washing the whole issue. He has 17K+ posts on the forum so I assume he works for Norton.He is using answers that are not based in reality."You only need to worry about the CIA or NSA if you are a bad guy."There have been many cases of employees of the CIA/NSA/etc. hacking into people's accounts to get information about them, nothing connected to any crimes. Ex wives, girlfriends etc.Here he goes again:"Norton cannot go against the government. Plus they probably have no idea what proprietary tools that the CIA or NSA might be using.Home computer security products are not designed to try to defeat an attack by a government agency. They protect from 'regular' hackers and malware.And even if Norton did have information about these kinds of attacks, they probably could not legally tell us about it."So Norton can not plug holes if the government tells them not to? That is scary.Home computers can not protect against gov't agencies. How can a security program know what is a gov't hack and what is not?Notepad++ just released a fix for their program to protect its users from the gov't hack. They did tell their users about it on their web page.https://notepad-plus-plus.org/news/notepad-7.3.3-fix-cia-hacking-issue.htmlAlso Wikileaks notified affected software companies of security vulnerabilities in their software.It looks like Norton can not be trusted.I am going to look for new security software, or just go with a bootable Linux DVD machine to go on the web.

author: technogeeky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 06:14:00 pm
content: Quote from: JoeO on March 11, 2017, 04:14:31 pm

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 06:37:59 pm
content: You know it is possible for two things to be true at once. I am gravely concerned about the principal of privacy and the widespread security states that are spreading around the world, including in countries that proclaim that they don't do that. But on the practical side, I believe I have very little to worry about from this. I am personally at far more risk from profit seeking hackers trying to attain financial access than from all of the governments in the world combined.Those hacking the phone would hear me congratulating grand-daughters on their school achievements. The high points of those taps would be the variety of answers given to those people calling from "Windows Security" telling me my computer has been attacked. Those hacking my smart TV (if it actually was connected to the internet) would hear me asking the missus if she wanted another cup of tea, and discussing whether we could bust the diet by having pizza tonight. Thrilling intel take if you ask me.

author: basinstreetdesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 06:45:33 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 11, 2017, 06:37:59 pm+1

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 07:39:28 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 11, 2017, 06:37:59 pmThen if you feel you have nothing to worry about, why don't you post on your profile your real name, your address, what you do for a living and where you work ?

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 08:04:54 pm
content: I've though Norton software was scamware for years.Comes pre-installed with the PC that the neighbours/in laws/parents/grandparents/work colleague/etc got from the shop and tries to squeeze $x out of them every year.When they give me the PC to fix it is usually expired. So I always just uninstall it and install something free so that they won't forget to pay for it and have no anti-virus.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 08:06:16 pm
content: Norton has been terrible for years. It's the first think you uninstall from any PC that has it. Same with McAfee. Get Avast or something along those lines. Heck, Windows Defender is fairly decent too.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 08:19:43 pm
content: The subject comes up sometimes on technical and legal forums. How much liability would a corporation face if its software detected government malware leading to a government investigation being thwarted?I am not aware of the situation coming up yet at least for malware in a visible way but inevitably it will. I consider Norton and McAfee (and Microsoft) to be untrustworthy anyway.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 11:51:10 pm
content: Norton will probably make sure your machine runs too slowly to be of any use. An unusable machine is a secure one... right. :-)

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 12:38:58 am
content: Who uses Norton? Bloatware, crapware and fearware all rolled into one annual fee. From the day Peter Norton sold out to Symantec, the plot was lost.The only people who think Norton is needed are old age pensioners and other non-technical people, who after paying for Norton's Antivirus think they need to buy a new computer because their computer has become so slow. These are the people who select every installer default and wonder why Bing is now their default search engine and why half of their browser screen is taken up by crap-ware add-ons, so they go out and buy another computer with a whole lot of rubbish the department store salesman told them they needed. Rinse and repeat.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 01:50:45 am
content: Simple, don't use Norton AV... its bloatware anyway, 2001 was the last good version before it went full 'Internet Security' bloat junk.AV can only protect you from known viruses, the viruses that really do damage are the ones that spread like a virus, and AV does not detect. By the time you have the virus, it's too late, your system should be considered compromised and you should re-install the system from scratch.Virus removal is not enough, you have no idea what the virus has done, and since most turn your PC into a bot, who knows what software/back doors were installed on your pc after the infection. AV wont remove user accounts or shares created by malicious software. It wont disable RPC that may have been covertly enabled and left open, or services that may have been installed like a VNC server, these are parts of the operating system and/or legitimate software which are not tagged for removal, there is no way for the AV software to know.When a server gets compromised, we don't even consider trying to use it anymore for production, there is just no 100% sure way to tell what was modified on the system. The server gets a full audit to determine how the server was compromised, it is taken offline and reinstalled from scratch to ensure that they system binaries, kernel, drivers, etc, are all clean and the security issue is patched to prevent it from occurring again.Once someone has access to your PC, all bets are off, even if you can't confirm if they managed to get Administrator or root, the machine should be treated as suspect. If admin/root access is obtained it is very easy to wipe all traces of usage of the admin/root account.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 02:18:35 am
content: "What is Norton going to do to protect its users from the CIA?"They will shut down, forcing their user to migrate to a product that works.Well, we can hope...

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 03:04:56 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 11, 2017, 06:37:59 pmYou may be right about thelevel of risk, but the value ofwhat is at riskis entirely different. What you can loose to thehackers is just your money. What you can loose togovernments is your liberty. I personally value my liberty more than I value my money.Recent publications in Wikileaks is worrisome. We are monitored at a level that Stasi would envy.Yes, they merely just collected the information but it was not used against anyone. You know,Reinhard Heydrichhad his famous index card collection of information. He just collected it and didn't use it either - that is, until they were firmly in power and until he hasa need to use it. Some historians will contribute his rise in the SS and beyond to his index cards.Who isReinhard Heydrich? When he used his index cards, he was reporting to Himmler as the SS-Obergruppenführer und General der Polizei, chief of the Reich Main Security Office (including the Gestapo, Kripo, and SD) -- thatReinhard Heydrich, probably best known as theButcher of Prague.Every emperor before or after Augustus, Roman or English, East or West, this or another continent, all have their information collectors. The all have their version of "index cards" like Reinhard's. The information are collected and not use, well, until one day, suddenly, they become useful...Edit - added this:You may think it will never happen in the USA. Look up our recent history. When video tape rental was how we get movies, we all joined video clubs to rent. We know the video store kept records of who rented what. It never bothered anyone that they had those information.And then one day, a person was nominated for Supreme Court (Clarence Thomas). All a sudden, that he on occasion rented X-rated movies became known. His video rental record became public knowledge. We knew more about what movies he watched than we do what court cases he ruled on.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 03:30:05 am
content: "Anti-Virus" software simply provides another avenue to attack a computer, and this is open to any malfeasor, not just three-letter agencies.See this report from Google last year.This has nothing to do with the CIA, and everything to do with AV software being useless and dangerous.

author: gnavigator1007
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 03:30:42 am
content: It's a pretty sad state of affairs when people are looking to private companies to save us from our government.

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 04:24:35 am
content: you cant trust a closed source society for protecting your privacy or from anything. this has proven itself over and over again.were all doomed

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 05:04:47 am
content: Quote from: gnif on March 12, 2017, 01:50:45 amSince Intel puts another extra ring under 0 for each processor generation, which are then used to put a rootkit one level deeper, together with firmware hacks (HDD and otherwise) maybe it's time to just throw them in a shredder instead.

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 06:07:03 am
content: [quote author=Marco link=topic=84715.msg1157729#msg1157729 date=1489295087Since Intel puts another extra ring under 0 for each processor generation, which are then used to put a rootkit one level deeper, together with firmware hacks (HDD and otherwise) maybe it's time to just throw them in a shredder instead.not to mention security holes and backdoors etc put in my the manufacturers themselves in cooperation with government agencies.you have no way of knowing if that Chinese motherboard or that Taiwan hard drive you just installed has compromised firmware...does your new smart tv already come with code that is allowing you to be snooped on.does that new phone already compromised before you take it home....what about that internet enabled av system... is it compromising your networkyou just don't know.I would say set up your own firewall, but we have learned that even firewalls have been compromised.....were does it end...

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 07:28:19 am
content: Quote from: innkeeper on March 12, 2017, 06:07:03 amLives of Others(Das Leben der Anderen, Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck) is a goodfictionaldepiction of how the government monitoring goes,1984(George Orwell) is a good depiction offictionalbad government in total control of citizens.The Killing Fields(Roland Joffé) is a depiction ofactual eventsof arealbad government gone wild.If you don't want a movie depiction, research Stasi (GDR) on how they monitor and oppress. Research Hitler, Stalin, and Mao. All three of them were directly or indirectly the cause of deaths of double-digit-millions. Zillions of examples in history or present day.Government is the only entity we have today that can legally take human life. Governments in history and in present day are full of examples of poor execution (as in poorly run, not in killing) and full of examples of bad guys in charge. Yet so many smart people so freely and willingly enlarge government by letting government do more and more and became more and more powerful.Funny most want eco-systems with diversity yet many in that same group would like to see the world unite under one government. No diversity, no competition."Where does it end?" you asked. Well, today, we have places we can run away to. It will end with when the whole world is ruled by one government (no where to run). Eventually, even very smart citizens may get fooled or complacent and let bad guy become leader. Witness NAZI 1930's. 1930's Germany was a nation of educated people, cultured people, civilized people, technologically advanced people. Yet in 1930's they let Hitler became leader. So, while probability may be small but eventually a bad guy will get a chance.When we have "one world government", a bad dice roll resulted in a bad guy in charge - too late. No where to run... Bye bye human civilization.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 11:24:28 am
content: Quote from: JoeO on March 11, 2017, 04:14:31 pmNext, the totalitarian regime and thought control will decide what "bad guy" means.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 06:42:48 pm
content: Quote from: JoeO on March 11, 2017, 07:39:28 pmDid I mention that I AM worried about the non-government, for profit types out there. I am not a target for government intelligence agencies of any government. But like any one else with income or assets, I am at real risk from the thieves out there.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 06:53:15 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on March 12, 2017, 03:04:56 amAh, the index cards -Yes, J. Edgar Hoover did it too. Here in the US. And the the people who he was able to intimidate were those that were embarrassed by what the cards might reveal, and did not have the courage to face that embarrassment. I'm not saying there aren't embarrassing things in my past (or won't be in the future). I am just saying that there is nothing I can be intimidated by. My response to "Follow my directions or I will tell the world" is "Start shouting".I suspect that Clarence Thomas was quietly given the chance to withdraw before his video rental habits were revealed. If so, he obviously told them to start shouting.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 07:14:11 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 12, 2017, 06:42:48 pmHave you been living under a rock?That's what the people who were shopping for a rice cooker thoughthttps://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/08/government-knocking-doors-because-google-searches/312599/lOr maybe you were just in the wrong place at the wrong timehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes.There are plenty of other examples.But in fact since domestic terrorists appear as regular citizens, the intelligence services must consider "ordinary people" as potential terrorists. It probably won't happen to you or your loved ones, but don't pretend it can't.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 07:23:53 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on March 12, 2017, 07:14:11 pmDid you actually read the article? The man had just been fired from his job, and his former employer found that he had been searching for "pressure cooker bombs" and "backpacks". The rice cooker comes from questioning his wife. Don't misunderstand me. I HATE government intrusion into the lives of people and I abhor spy agencies spying on their own population; this was NEVER their intent. However, this case is entirely the fault of the man that made the searches. If he had made them in the privacy of his home, he may never have received a visit from the task force. I would question why he was looking up pressure cooker bombs and backpacks, in light of the Boston bombings that used -you guessed it- pressure cooker bombs in backpacks. Nothing suspicious there...

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 07:39:16 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on March 12, 2017, 07:14:11 pmYou are conflating things.1. I am not a target. I am not. That does not mean that I will not be mistakenly identified as someone who is targeted. But the odds really are low. I could also be hit by lightning.2. The Menezes case is not directly a problem with surveillance, it is predominantly a problem with use of lethal force before a trial. We have that problem here in the US also. In most cases it has nothing to do with surveillance. This is another chance to review my original comment and expand on it. I am strongly against the surveillance state, and against the excessive use of force. But as I said in the first post, two things can be true at once. My personal risk is low. Just as the Schindler (of Schindler's List fame) had little personal risk until he started his cover up process, and for that matter even after. His risk was low, but he took action against states actions.3. I have modified my behavior to minimize my risk. Even though I have boundless curiosity about any number of things, I have frequently avoided internet searches about things that would draw unwanted attention to myself. And taken other steps to protect my privacy. So read and think about what I said again. Two things at once being true.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 07:49:59 pm
content: Last time I had something branded Norton I liked - it was called Norton Commander... (With hotkey for TSR [Terminate Stay Resident] usage on Dos

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2017, 06:09:51 pm
content: And Peter Norton actually had a hand in the coding of it. His column in PC Magazine and PC Week was always helpful. ANd of course his Programmers Guide to the IBM PC is THE book on DOS programming.Only after selling out to Symantec and then having them slap his name on anything and everything did it turn into garbage.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2017, 07:49:48 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 12, 2017, 07:39:16 pmThere is more to it than that. The de Menezes case was a problem with gross incompetence, lies and cover-ups, and violation of justice by the London Metropolitan Police. No-one has been charged with his murder, and no-one has spend a day in prison. The identity of the killers have been hidden by the Metropolitan police to this day. The woman who ordered his execution was Cressida Dick, who got a promoted. In fact, she is about to be appointed Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police by the Queen.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 14, 2017, 08:15:39 am
content: Quote from: JoeO on March 11, 2017, 04:14:31 pmI find your question odd. You don't trust a large government organisation who is chartered to protecting their citizens and are probably not going to be interested in you in the slightest, yet, you'll entrust a private corporation like Norton to protect you? Norton canbarelywrite software which is capable of doing what it says on the box.I can answer your question:Nope.What exactly is it you need protection from? I learnt from a pretty young age that the bogeyman wasn't real.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2017, 01:56:58 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 14, 2017, 08:15:39 amIf there are holes in software, purposely placed there or discovered and not fixed because "only the gov't knows about them", then a hacker can and will find them and exploit them. It is just a matter of time.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 02:50:25 am
content: I doubt it, if they by chance got their hands on government sponsored spyware and wrote definitions for it, they'd probably be shut down really fast. It would probably be violation of some obscure national security related law.I'd say the real threat now days though is all the backdoors in products, and the physical spy devices like those Samsung TVs. You can make a network very secure especially if you air gap it. But not much you can do about backdoors that use some form of separate radio communication that bypasses all your security. Ex: built in 3G or something similar.I'd be curious as to what those Samsung TVs use, if it's 3G, or some other form of communication. 3G makes the most sense as the network is already established. The Intel backdoor uses 3G from what has been discovered, but not much is known about that backdoor. Really, more needs to be dug on that one, because on it's own that backdoor is a huge threat. No firewall is going to protect you if they can remote in directly.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 05:58:06 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 11, 2017, 06:37:59 pmYour community leaders and elected representatives are targeted by the same surveillance apparatus. So are your judges.That'sthe whole problem with "I have nothing to hide, so I have nothing to fear." Those people probably do have things to hide, and are accordingly susceptible to influence.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 04:08:37 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on March 15, 2017, 05:58:06 amAgreed, and not inconsistent with what I said. They won't be attacking me, but those that have power over me.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2017, 10:29:19 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 14, 2017, 08:15:39 amNow you see why I don't trust a large government organization.You can be the poster child for naivete.In this case, the bogeyman IS real!

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2017, 10:30:45 am
content: Quote from: JoeO on March 14, 2017, 01:56:58 pmIn this case, the "matter of time" was less than 2 months until it was exploited.