Battery Life Extending Machines ?? restoring for lead-acid  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2011, 09:47:06 pm
content: Probably I am effected by the panic syndrome, because the battery of my motorcycle YTZ7S (Yuasa) shows some signs of damage in just two years time, if I need to use the starter for 2-3 minutes , it falls apart = below the 11V mark.And so by looking on the web found this charger, that promises to restore lead-acid batteries.http://www.accutherm.com.tw/index.asp?lang=2And the big question is : does any of those devices really work ?Once I had read that there is a way to add some chemicals in the battery, like internal wash, and there was a chance to recover,and filled back with electrolyte.But this cure was about large sized batteries found in tractors.

author: Balaur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2011, 10:23:33 pm
content: I'm using an older CTEK charger that also have some battery recondition features (desulphation). The current battery on my car has 5 years.I've also bought one for my parents and they use that to maintain their car battery in very tough conditions.My opinion is that these (or better) chargers are quite useful in maintaining the battery for a very long lifetime if other conditions are met as well such as the car/bike charging circuitry are functioning correctly. I find them strictly indispensable in my case (I'm not using the car too much - maybe one short trip/week + long vacations). Short trips and long inactivity periods are bad for battery lifetime.I'm not really sure whether they will be able to rehabilitate bad batteries. One can always try.As always, please check whether the battery is charged correctly in your motorcycle, i.e.: typical 3-step charge with constant current, overvoltage 14.2~14.5V then drop to ~12-13V or a much more common flat slight-overvoltage (13.2V~13.6V)If that's OK, then maybe the battery is sulphated. An "intelligent" charger could be used to restore the battery to a better performance level.I could recommend you to buy a good charger such as one of the CTEK units since I find that a charger is very useful. However, please don't lessen to me as I have an unnatural fascination with rechargeable battery stuff.

author: bilko
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 12:03:38 am
content: From the brochurehttp://www.yuasa.com.au/files/All_PDFs/YTZ_Yuasa_Brochure.pdfit appears that this battery uses AGM technology. This means that the battery is sealed and that the acid is held between the matting. The battery extending technology is used for normal lead acid, which are prone to sulphation (spelling?). The AGM technology is not supposed to lose water except when overcharged or operating at high temperatures. They have hydrogen oxygen gas re-combiners that produce water from the normal gasses given off. If the battery is overcharged, a vent prevents excessive pressure in the case and the gas is lost to the atmosphere. It is possible that the battery has lost some water.If the battery is fully charged, you can check the Ah capacity using a constant current load set at a 20'th of the charge rate. If the battery gives less than the Ah rate then it is probably nearing the end of its useful life. Many batteries are replaced when the Ah rating gets to around 50%. Check this link, it may be relevanthttp://www.spokanister.net/ktm_Yuasa_YTZ7S.html

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 12:18:49 am
content: My Uncle until he retired recently was the CEO of one of the car batt manufactures in AU. Batteries now days are made to last 3 years they have made the lead plates as thin as they can to save costs and increase profit. The lead plates in the batt corrode and can pitt sometime the plate can crack in half reducing the Ah capacity. Pull it apart and have a look at the inside plates and replace plates if needed. You will probably have to make the plates yourself. I would not buy an electronic device that claims to rejuvenate a battery when it is probably a physical problem like the plate flaking 1 little flake and shorting a cell which reduces the voltage.

author: Balaur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 12:24:42 am
content: Quote from: yachtronics on October 06, 2011, 12:03:38 amAll lead-based batteries may suffer for sulf(ph)ation issues when left partially charged for some time. That may have drastic consequences such as failing to reach the expected lifetime. Some usually quoted figures talk about the fact that only 30% of car batteries reach a 48 month mark and that 8 of 10 batteries are affected by sulfation build up. (Citation required). That's why I've replaced my 2 year-old car battery when I didn't knew how to properly maintain it.The specific structure of Gel batteries makes them very resistant to this effect but not immune. AGM batteries are definitely better than wet cells but still vulnerable.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 01:28:00 am
content: Well I use my motorcycle daily, and it has only starter, I will use the starter 4 to 8 times daily.When I had rebuild my motorcycle, I got a genuine BOSCH for it, even if it was looking and was identical it was not,the BOSCH battery was having in specs lesser cranking amperes than the Yuasa standard type for my motorcycle that is the YTX7BS.The battery failed in about 16 months.The BOSCH battery warranty is a true ridicules plan.The BOSCH battery analyzer that the authorized car electricians ( resellers ) have, should detect that the battery gets fully discharged from fully charged with 10A load in 1 minute !! What ??My motorcycle starter needs about 30 - 35 Amperes so to spin the engine.I got the YTZ7S because it was looking like a miracle technology, like more plates and more cranking amperes even in a bit smaller package.I was hopping that this genuine Yuasa would offer me about 4 years or even more of life,because the supposed load , for it its much less.Currently gives sufficient cranking amperes but only for 1-2 minutes, then it starts dropping down.If I had an issue with the fuel system and I need to spin the engine for more than 2 minutes, I will not be able to start the engine again.The motorcycle its a single cylinder 250CC, its impossible to start it up by pushing it and hit the second gear.I have the motorcycle for over 20 years , I remember that my first two standard Yuasa was living up to five years,and I had even help cars to start up with those batteries.Even me I could spin my engine for more than 10-15 minutes with them. ( spark plug semi damaged)It can not be the modern batteries that fake !! , especially if you pay the price premium for them.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 01:39:07 am
content: There's a simple charger/desulphator for lead acid batteries that is nothing more than a light dimmer, a motor run cap, and a bridge rectifier. A friend of mine had great luck with 5uF (and 120V) for a car battery. Adding another motor run cap across the mains to reduce the impedance should make it work even better.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 01:49:55 am
content: Well I would love to see a drawing of this circuitry.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 02:37:59 am
content: There is much anecdotal evidence that these things work. There is some "scientific" testing that shows they don't work. There is nothing reliable either way. The positive reports come from those who spent their money or time on these things and probably want to justify the expense or reinforce their beliefs that it works. Some is just hopeful thinking that they can extend the life of their batteries so their wishes influence their "results". There are no independent proper tests that show that they do work.To prove it one way or the other it would require something like this:100 batteries from a batch of 200 used in a specified way under controlled conditions without the device.100 batteries from the other half of the batch used the same way and conditions with the device.A test time of over 10 years.Then a statistical result could be obtained.The typical result is from people saying that their last battery died after 3 years, and the new battery is 3 years old and is still going. Observation bias is the least of the problems with this method.Personally, my opinion is that they do nothing but earn money for the manufacturers and sellers of these things.

author: Balaur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 10:23:51 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on October 06, 2011, 02:37:59 amWhile I definitely appreciate your contribution, I would like to add some comments to maybe complement some of your comments that I find a bit too strong.- The lead battery sulphation is a real issue that affects partially charged batteries- Assuming that the battery is correctly charged by the system (car/motorcycle/whatever), the correct maintenance procedure consists in storing the battery fully charged.- The lifetime of the battery will be certainly degraded by improper use: incorrect charge or long-time storage at not fully charged levels.A good charger (independent of the desulphation features) could be very useful in maintaining proper performance levels from the battery during the expected lifetime.In my case, I've lost two car batteries because I didn't knew better and didn't do my homework. My car usage profile was the worst you could do to a car battery: short and relatively rare trips. The lost batteries have been tested by my usual car mechanics with their fancy tester. I've bought new batteries each time and they verified that the charging system on my car was working correctly (they usually do that for the three-year guaranty stuff).Since then, I learn a lot of stuff about cars (I can do most of the stuff by my own right now, including timing belt changes and so on) and particularly the battery. Since starting to properly maintain my battery, I can say that things certainly improved. The current battery has 5 years of service and 5 1/2 years since manufacturing.Please note that all this was made possible by proper maintenance and not by any fancy battery repair features.Now, what about desulphation?Again, I don't claim that this technique works. Please use the following info as you see fit.I've kept the failed battery (failed as certified by the car guys) and recharged with the newly acquired charger and tested with a selection of headlight bulbs and resistors (this was way before the constant current load I have now that was inspired by eevblog). I did this constantly for about a week.The testing would indicate that the battery was able to get back to better Ah levels during the process. I wasn't able to test the Cranking Amps parameter (you need to put around 300 A to some load) but at the end of the process the battery was good enough to be used as a mobile power reserve for several years.However, please make your own opinion on this. This is just my experience.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 02:14:17 pm
content: Dear Balaur, on the internet and forums what you will find most is strong words as opinions.Personally I value more the true personal experiences of the others.Mostly because they worth more ... why ? because those people they had pay hard earned cash,and spent lots of valuable personal time, so to create their opinions.Every small or large presentation of my in the EEV blog, it cost me money and time.Some people they are unable to understand that every information that they read , its an actual valuable gift to them,that some else had payed for it.( and currently I have an major difficulty even staying on line, with the use of wireless technology,lost my ADSL few months back)And so keep it coming, speaking about true experiences exchange.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 05:34:17 pm
content: The plural of anecdote is data, right?

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 07:06:52 pm
content: Battery university states the preferred charge form is:http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_batteryFor external battery charging SLA or Gel, we've had good luck with Soneil chargers; its unique algorithm does seem to prolong battery life quite a bit, if you do not allow the battery to stay uncharged for more than 1 day.We use these chargers to power underwater scooters that use SLA technology. Such usage is very bad for lead acid batteries; they are deep discharged, left uncharged often for 8-12 hours until we are back on the boat or land and have access to electricity. The runtime of scooters are heavily dependent on the charge uptake, and with this cycle and the Soneil charger specifically, we can get 3-4 years on a battery run ~ 100 cycles a year.Its a Canadian company that has made its name in chargers alone. Its performance characteristics were found empirically by many deep divers using various chargers and found it extend the battery life, are small in size, cost effective and well made [ last I have, still made in Canada.]http://soneil.com/

author: ToBeFrank
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 08:55:54 pm
content: This is what I use on my motorcycle:http://batterytender.com/motorcycle.html. I haven't used it long enough to say whether the battery lasts longer.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 09:21:53 pm
content: The battery tender and similar chargers are for simple maintenance, to help the lack of battery activity, at one inactive period of the vehicle.If I can bring to life a battery that looks damaged, this is all the gain.Currently I am doing one experiment, I am trying to charge my older battery was was sitting out of use for about 2 years.I tried to charge it but looked dead even by using 35V as input.Then I did one crazy thing, I open up the top covers, and by keeping the positive lead connected,I connect the negative in to a long metallic screwdriver and started to touch the plates of the second compartment of plates.So all the power of the 35 Volts ( 10A) to activate the battery in stages.It worked , slowly slowly the battery become active again , all of it !!Now at 14.4V it still draw 2 Amperes constantly, but looks impossible to activate it self to the point to look as fully charged.It run very hot and boils from the heat, for many hours now.In order help it about the excessive heat, I have it in a bawl of water.It took me about three hours to activate all the compartment of plates,Now it is charging with stable 2A 14V for more than 10 hours, but there is no change so far.I will keep this experiment active for about 24 hours = another 14 hours.If there is no change after that period, the battery has no chance to be fully restored.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 09:55:05 pm
content: Quote from: Balaur on October 06, 2011, 10:23:51 amMy words were not intended to be strong, solely the truth as I know it and my opinion in addition. Proper maintenance and usage of a battery are the most important things as you said. Without these magic sulphation removers it is possible to resuscitate a battery to an extent as you have found out.Your points are all correct.(Edited for spelling)

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 10:13:20 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on October 06, 2011, 02:14:17 pmIf you don't want opinions, then stop asking. I have $7000 worth of AGM batteries running my solar power system. I have no other power for my house except for my solar power. If there was any reason try and extend the life of batteries, I certainly think I have spent the money and would have a reason. My opinion is my opinion, but only after almost two years of experience with a solar power system and with research and investigation for months on the best way to extend the life of my $7000 investment in batteries.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 10:19:28 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on October 06, 2011, 09:21:53 pmI am glad that what your method did not result in an explosion. This is a very common result the kind of thing you did. Please be careful as a battery explosion and fire with the resulting acid flying all over can result in serious injury and even death.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 10:35:47 pm
content: No one speaks in this topic about specialized batteries for solar energy.If you are using 7000$ worth car batteries, its your problem.Thanks for your warnings about the explosion, I was smart enough to limit the current to 3A in my experiment,so to force the activation and just see few bubbles.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 11:22:04 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on October 06, 2011, 10:35:47 pmSolar batteries are lead acid batteries. Some are flooded cell batteries, some are GEL type, and some are AGM type. Car and motorcycle batteries can be of the same types. The main difference between the automotive and deep cycle type batteries is the plate construction. Automotive type batteries are made with many thin plates so as to provide the largest area of plate to the acid so as to be able to provide very high current surges such as required during starting. The problem with the automotive types is that they are not happy being discharged even a little for any length of time and sulphate very quickly.Solar storage batteries use the exact same chemistry as automotive type batteries, but have thick plate construction and are optimized for longer and deeper discharges at the expense of ultimate peak current surge capacity. Solar storage batteries will generally withstand discharges to 50% of capacity many times without damage. They are not immune to sulphation and should also be recharged with a couple of days to prevent permanent loss of capacity.As both automotive and solar storage batteries share the same chemistry, they both have the same issue of sulphation over their life and the resulting loss of storage capacity. These magic de-sulphators are marketed equally to both uses.If you think you know it all, then why ask the question about these de-sulphators? I answer you honestly and with hard earned and payed for experience as you say you are only interested in and you reject it again without knowing what you are talking about.Limiting the current to the battery has nothing to do with safety when you are probing around inside an acid battery which is spewing out hydrogen gas just waiting for the least little spark to explode. Readers: Do not repeat his method unless you know the risks and know how to mitigate the danger.And if I were as stupid as to use car batteries for solar power yes, it would be a problem. I am not and again you make ridiculous statements based on who knows what.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 12:46:46 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on October 06, 2011, 11:22:04 pmForum life is a bitch, gives the ability to any anonymous to play with your feelings.I will give you an American reply: no matter what you are saying , I will not let it pass under my skin.Back to our topic, motorcycle batteries and car batteries.

author: johnmx
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 09:40:24 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on October 06, 2011, 01:28:00 amSorry for the off topic, but I also have one 4-strock single cylinder 250cc and it’s very simple to start it pushing by hand. I can even start the engine of my other bigger bike, the Hornet 600, just by pushing it. A little run on the side followed by a jump to the seat and hit the gear at the same time I push the bike down to increase the friction of the tires.About the batteries, I’ve never tried to bring back to live any dead battery. I just buy a new one instead.The original Yuasa from my 250cc bike lasted 16months. The original one from the Hornet, also a Yuasa, lasted 10 years!! Go figure…Then I bought a Tudor (75€) for the Hornet, it lasted 16months. Now I have a Chinese one (30€). The Yuasa cost more than 100€.Recently I bought a charger (from Lidl) to maintain the batteries fully charged during the winter. I think it’s the best way to prevent premature death.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 10:02:23 pm
content: Quote from: johnmx on October 07, 2011, 09:40:24 pmHi John, yes you had touched the 100.000 dollars question !!If one genuine Yuasa of 2011 is not able to make it more than two years and cost 100€.By buying instead three Chinese in the row 3x30€ , you have more chances to get a maximum of three years with those !!By all those in mind, what would be the golden advice for the rest consumers ?About pushing by hand, its not an option for me, my age of 43 plus the rear basket,plus the side metal base for extra suitcases ( touring design) , holds me back about doing it.http://dhost.info/ax1/html/ax-1_final_view.html

author: johnmx
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 11:41:49 pm
content: I have the Chinese battery for 6 months, so it’s too soon to make conclusions. Let’s see how it goes…Let me congratulate you for the amazing work on the rebuild of the AX-1. Your bike looks like new!My Hornet has 13 years old and it’s in a very good shape tooI also like to repair my bikes and make upgrades.For the WR250F I do everything but open the motor.So far I have done in my hornet the following ‘upgrades’: MIVV exhaust, Bi-Xenon front light (I recommend to every one!), holder for the disc-locker with infrared detector. This holder detects the presence of the disc-lock and prevents the starter motor to run if the locker is not detected. In this way I’m sure that I will not start the bike with the locker on the brake discYou can see a demonstration video here:

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 12:25:45 am
content: Nice catch the smart disk-lockIt was time the electronics to assist further the two wheels too.I am using an American alarm system the Scorpio 500i :Plus..a) with perimeter motion detection sensorb) remote kill switch, and I can kill the engine from a distance in a case of hijacking.( the all pack about 450$ )About the Chinese batteries , your best chance is around 14 months with them.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 01:01:57 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on October 06, 2011, 01:49:55 amIt's just a light dimmer and motor run capacitor in series with the hot mains wire, then rectified for charging the battery. Look up a schematic for a common thyristor-based light dimmer to understand how it works.

author: johnmx
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 02:57:45 pm
content: Kiriakos, what is the power consumption of the alarm? Measure it even if it’s written in the manual. Alarm systems always decrease the battery life.Most of desulphate circuits use big inductors that could be difficult to get. I found this simple circuit in the internet, don’t know if it works but is easy to make:http://www.newtoncbraga.com.br/index.php/artigos/49-curiosidades/1022-recuperando-baterias-sulfatadas-art146.htmlIt’s written in Portuguese. Ask me if you need any help translating it.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 04:09:46 pm
content: Quote from: johnmx on October 08, 2011, 02:57:45 pmThis alarm is smarter than me about battery consumption, in the unit of time, it powers up and turn off, its circuitry of it,and by this way it saves power.In order to measure the mA when it is active, you need a damn fast DMM with Min Max, or even better with Peak to Peak mode.Quote from: johnmx on October 08, 2011, 02:57:45 pmLOL the guy who wrote it expects 5A from one 2N3055 , he is more crazy than me !!

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 04:17:46 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on October 08, 2011, 01:01:57 pmOk the dimmer will output 120V AC, the capacitor will drop down the output almost in half ( 60V AC),and then I will rectify the 60V AC to become 60V DC ?If this all about, why to not use a 60V DC PSU in the first place?

author: johnmx
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 05:25:36 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on October 08, 2011, 04:09:46 pmThe 2N3055 can handle 10A in normal conditions. Remember that the rms current will be around half the peak value: 2.5A. The average power in this transistor will be less than 10W.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 10:09:43 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on October 08, 2011, 04:17:46 pmThyristor-based dimmers work by phase angle switching. With a capacitor in series, it outputs high current pulses at twice the line frequency. Then use the bridge rectifier to keep every pulse in the same direction. Those high current pulses are what recondition the battery. (The dimmer should be adjusted to about half power for best results.)I suppose a better design might be to use an impedance limited rectifier (voltage doubler with 0.1uF or so caps) charging a motor run capacitor (10uF or so) with a SCR circuit to dump the charge when the voltage reaches 200V or so. Performance would not be dependent on line impedance and the maximum peak current can be high enough for even the biggest batteries.

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2011, 09:41:09 pm
content: i posted a thread on this a while back.Pulse Desulfatorsheres the graph including the 3rd test a month later.-sj

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2011, 01:24:48 pm
content: I am watching this thread, but I do not say anything until to find the way to do some tests.