Buying new soldering and hot air setup. How do these compare? JBC, Ersa, etc - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mshockey22
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 02:49:21 am
content: First, I know this has been discussed on here, but after reading all the current threads, I'm still on the fence in my particular situation. I'm looking for some more current information and ideally some info from people who have actually used both brands.I'm trying to stay under $2250 but cost isn't a big issue. I'm not worried about the cost of tips, but rather their availability in the US.I do a range of work (iPad backlights, iPhone Touch IC, Macbook board repairs, DC jacks, PS4 HDMI ports, etc, etc). So, pretty big to very small components. Definitely need a high powered hot air station for items like the HDMI ports and also a micro iron for the tiny pins. My current options:1. JBC DME with T210, T245, PA120 Tweezers, and up to $750 for a good hot air station (open to suggestions). Hakko and Weller both have some units in that price range, but I'm not sure if they're actually much better than cheaper models similar to the Quick 861DW.2. I'd also like to hear of anyone's opinion of the JBC NASE-1B. I'm having trouble finding information on how the nano tweezers compare to their micro tweezers and how their NT105 compares to their T210. The NASE + DDE-1B + T245 w/stand could be an option. That would put me over budget with a decent hot air station added, but would be a very nice setup if the tweezers and iron are better suited for phone and tablet repair.3. Next option, The Ersa Vario 4 plus a micro iron (not sure if Ersa has one for the Vario series). I may have to pickup a separate I-Con Nano unit. I may also still need to pickup a dedicated hot air station if the unit isn't powerful enough for larger components like an HDMI port but it may also be nice to have the hot air pen type for very small hot air work. I also can't tell how small their tweezers really are and if they could be used to pull the same type of components as the JBC PA120 set. I've found this unit within my budget from Farnell.People who use JBC seem to all love them. However, people who have also used Ersa say that they do generally prefer them to JBC due to how well they transfer heat. I've also heard that they were functally about the same. The JBC has the look of a more expensive unit, and my workstation is visible to our lobby (people like to watch and make me nervous). I can also get all the JBC equipment from Howard's here in the US. The Ersa would most likely have to come from Germany. Any info would be well appreciated! Cheers

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 09:57:45 pm
content: For hot air an Atten 858D+ or newer model will do just fine. Hot air is what it is: hot air. I have an extra one as a spare unit but I have not needed it so far.Yesterday I ordered a (cheap) hot plate with the intent to use it as a pre-heater. I hope this will make rework on multilayer boards easier but I have to try it. In my experience hot air takes a long time to get enough heat into a PCB to lift large components and using a small nozzle doesn't help much to heat just one component.

author: mshockey22
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 10:58:20 pm
content: nctnicoThank you for the info. I currently have a couple X-Tronic 5040s that I've been using for pretty much only the hot air station and holder. I'm not sure how the Atten compares to them, but I've had some off and on issues with them. Overall, they're good units for the price, but the wiring in them is dangerously under rated, the base sometimes rattles while it's running, the handle occasionally gets pretty hot, and the air temperature doesn't regulate very well. I've had a 70+ degrees C fluctuation at times. That can be dealt with when it's a DC jack or other large component but is devastating when it's an iPhone touch IC chip.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2017, 12:11:18 am
content: I don't think you can really regulate the temperature of a hot air station well because the hot air has to cross over to the component. Keeping the nozzle close to the PCB blocks the airflow while keeping it too far away mixes in too much cold air. Having said that the results I get from my Atten 858D+ are pretty consistent. The same job takes the same time to heat up and the same amount of distance to the component/PCB.

author: mshockey22
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 20, 2017, 05:51:55 pm
content: nctnico -Thanks again for the info. It sounds like you have better results with the Atten then I do with the X-tronic. At the price, it sounds like it's definitely worth giving a shot.blueskull -100% agree. I have several irons right now (Weller WESD51, an old Hakko, and some off brand ones that came with rework stations). I currently only use the Weller, but even it doesn't cut it for many of the jobs I have. Yeah, getting the tips will be a challenge with the upper brands. I'm a little OCD when it comes to taking care of them though. So, they usually last me forever.Do you guys have any experience with JBC or Ersa irons? I'm leaning towards pulling the trigger on the JBC Nase + DDE + T245 + stand and a couple spare tips today.

author: mshockey22
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 20, 2017, 05:53:57 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on February 20, 2017, 12:27:31 amThe Quick 861DW seems to be the preferred unit under $300. I'm leaning towards that one right now.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 08:56:56 am
content: I prefer Ersa over JBC. The tips from Ersa last very long.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 09:15:07 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 19, 2017, 09:57:45 pmNot really, don't know what's the deal really is but cheap stations tend to melt the surface of plastic SMD connectors while having troubles to melt the solder. Maybe temp fluctuations. Better hot air stations don't do so. Also you can get much higher airflow which is very useful with larger nozzles.EDIT: As of more expensive hot air stations, I don't think there will be any significant difference between Hakko FR-810B and Quick 861DW.

author: RayRay
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 11:48:07 am
content: Honestly, I will never understand why some people are willing to spend ridiculous amounts of money over soldering equipment!Essentially, you're paying extra just for the brand name (with no added benefit)You could get the Bakon BK950D (portable soldering station) for $25 (+$12 for a pack of T12 tips), and a 858D hot air station for $50-60.It'll get the job done very well, and would save you tons of money also.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 12:38:51 pm
content: Quote from: RayRay on February 23, 2017, 11:48:07 amMaybe because expensive equipment do work so much better? And wasting of the time by using crappy equipment when the job can be done better and faster with good equipment.

author: RayRay
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 12:44:20 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 23, 2017, 12:38:51 pmYou sound like a brand fanboy.Just because something is more expensive, it does not necessarily mean it's of better quality.Each case to it's own. I have a variety of "cheap" equipment that has worked fine for years.Also, heat is heat, and if you got two different soldering irons or hot air station providing the same temperature (and you're using the same tip/nozzle) it'd perform equally well.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 01:06:55 pm
content: Quote from: RayRay on February 23, 2017, 12:44:20 pmIf something is very cheap, it certainly means that manufacturer skimped on quality and there is some crap inside, though.

author: RayRay
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 02:58:16 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 23, 2017, 01:06:55 pmI'd say that's a very broad generalization.Each case to it's own. Set that aside, looking at it from a perspective of "it's cheap, so it's gotta be crap!" is not the right way to look at it IMO.Because of people with this mindset, big brands allow themselves to make a huge (and unjustifiable) profit in compare to lesser known brands.Ultimately, you have to keep in mind that PCB manufacturing isn't overly expensive, nor are electronic components (especially when you got a big company buying em in bulk and getting extra discounts the average consumer wouldn't get!), so the fact that big brands allow themselves to charge astronomical amounts of money is simply an outrage. Sure, you can pat yourself in the back and be like "wow, I got this super high quality and expensive product" but realistically, you could've settle for a cheaper option and be just as satisfied.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 03:47:16 pm
content: Quote from: RayRay on February 23, 2017, 02:58:16 pmAnd most of the cheap ones tend to be some sort of knockoffs of Hakko for some reason, your Bakon included. About particular soldering station, it works well for it's price. However don't expect it to be ESD safe. As of electronics, I've seen a tear-down few weeks ago, and wave soldering was very poor. Temperature wasn't precisely calibrated. Also it uses SMPS which might be not electrically safe as it happens with a lot of cheap Chinese products.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 03:52:07 pm
content: Doesn't look some sort of similar? Star, double "K", completely original. And for some reason uses hakko knockoff cartridges.

author: TJ232
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 05:54:24 pm
content: I also prefer Ersa over JBC.Used for a while MS-6000, ELS 8000 and now a i-CON 2V. Nothing to complain about. They have tips that are just running forever.Tried also some JBC new stations but looks like they doesn't have the same wetting tip factor. I don't know, might be just a personal feeling about.For the ones that are trying to compare cheap "Bacon" style chinese soldering stations with ERSA, JBC, OKI/Metcal, etc : they are from different world, it's nothing to compare between a professional soldering station that can work in a industrial environment where it must perform OK almost 24/7 and that cheap "Bacon". Even a 10 years old second-hand one will perform way better. As soon as you solder with a high quality soldering station it's very hard to go back. Some will say that is actually impossible.If is for limited general soldering or just some hobby stuff, I know a very good solution: Antex XS25. I have one abused for more that 15 maybe 20 years and still have the original heating element inside ! Combine it with a CS18 for some SMD work you might need and you have obtained your best ever soldering station.

author: julianhigginson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 07:38:55 pm
content: I went looking for something that would be as good as the hakko reflow irons i was used to (having tried to use really cheap bottom dollar reflow irons and just hating it) but with less of a mark up. it shouldn't cost $1000 to reliably heat and push a bit of air with basic quality construction... the quick 861 is what my research showed up, and afaik, is the current best option for a good quality reflow iron at a reasonable price. I'm very happy with mine.

author: Frost
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 07:45:27 pm
content: Quote from: TJ232 on February 23, 2017, 05:54:24 pmI recently switcht from Ersa to JBC.With Ersa I was limited to four tools per Station,now with my new JBC Station I can control more toolsand need less space on the workbench.

author: mshockey22
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 27, 2017, 07:37:11 pm
content: Thank you guys. Lots of good info. I pulled the trigger on the JBC DME with the T210, T245, PA120, stands for each, and a handful of tips. I'll post info on impressions soon. It should all be here tomorrow.Quote from: RayRay on February 23, 2017, 11:48:07 amI've used many brands over the years. I currently have a Hakko 951, a Weller WESD51, a Jovy 40, a Jovy RE-8500, an Aoyue rework station, 2 X-tronic rework stations, and honestly several other small stations that worked so poorly that they've just been tossed into our storage room. Here's the rub. With cheap units, you get 100% what you pay for. With mid level units, you get 95% what you pay for (best bang for the buck). The remaining 5% goes to the name. With higher priced items, you get 75% what you pay for. 25% goes to the name and company reliability. Yes, I paid $850 for the DME, but as a business, I know I'm spending $650 for the unit itself and another $200 to buy a product from a company that knows what it takes to be one of the best and does what it takes to stay there. That ensures that my product has been tested, is 100% the quality it should be, will work better than it's competitors, and if it doesn't, they will do what it takes to make things right. It's just like anything else, when the time comes that you need the best, you're going to have to pay for it. Just like anything else. I've had cheap stations start smoking, melt their handle, and all out fail. You can't run a business on that. I've taken units apart to find unrated wiring, loose wires, loose screws, broken boards, cracked heating elements, bad grounds, etc, etc. What happens when one of my offices catches on fire, 3 people get hurt, I have to close it for a month, and then the fire marshal determines the cause of the fire to be a Chinese made pre-heater that didn't pass US electric code? A couple hundred bucks will be the least of my worries.Here's a 100% true story. Years ago, I had a BGA rework station IR-PRO-SC that I ordered from China. On the forth use, when the machine hit it's peak temperature in the profile (probably about 230 C), it didn't stop heating. It just kept getting hotter and hotter. Luckily, I was standing right there, and when I saw that it had gone all the way up to 270 C, I immediately hit the big, red emergency stop button. Ha, not only did it not work, the temp took off like a monkey out of a box and was now rapidly climbing! Within seconds, my thermocouples near the BGA were reading over 340 C. The board was now flexing from the heat. Damn it if the plug wasn't behind a shelving unit with a bunch of crap on it. All the crap went to the floor and the plug out of the wall. The temp hit over 400 C by the time I got it unplugged. I honestly don't remember the actual temps, but everything got hot enough to completely destroy the board and force use to relabel the "emergency stop" button the "emergency f*** s*** up" button. That situation could've gotten much worse. I later took that unit apart and saw hot cheap everything was inside it. I honestly can't believe I was able to repair the first couple boards with it. $1100 to the trash.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2017, 08:06:34 pm
content: I can always tell the people who have no knowledge of manufacturing and business by the comment "I can't understand how brand x can cost so much when brand y (usually Chinese) is so cheap!"Chinese products are often literally made with the cheapest materials money can buy - and often they sell their finished product for less than what it would cost for a U.S. or European manufacturer to buy the raw materials. They also often get a lot of subsidies from their government so that they can lower their prices and stick it to the foreign competition even further. Now add in the cost of labor differences and the lack of any benefits for most Chinese workers and you end up with quite a spread in price from Chinese products to U.S. or quality European made products. And that's not even taking into account the after sales service (mostly non-existent on many Chinese products) and warranty.

author: Frost
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2017, 08:25:17 pm
content: Quote from: mshockey22 on February 27, 2017, 07:37:11 pmGood choice, I also use the DME model,the station is extremely powerful.Heat-up time 77 -> 660 => 2 seconds with the T210 handleand nearly no overshoot.You can view a plot of the heatup process, temperature and loadon the display.Check that the latest firmware is already installed, they made severalchanges on the UI and the newest firmware now knows allthe cartridges.So you enter the catridge number and the station will automaticallyadapt the heat-up process to the inserted cartridge.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2017, 09:05:17 pm
content: I am looking to save on bench space, and am thinking about buying theHakko FM-206 DSA. Does anyone have one of these? How does it compare to other top brands (e.g. JBC)?

author: mshockey22
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 27, 2017, 09:24:39 pm
content: Quote from: Elf on February 27, 2017, 09:05:17 pmI haven't personally used it, but maybe Louis Rossmann will chime in on it (not sure what his forum name is here). I've heard him mention it in a couple of his Youtube videos, and he did not like it, and he's a pretty strong believer in other Hakko products. If space was an issue for me, I'd look to find a good price on the Ersa Vario 4. It really did look to be the best price for an all in one unit that's good quality. You can find them under $2k.

author: mshockey22
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 27, 2017, 09:34:11 pm
content: Also, just to show I'm not "expensive" brand biased, I think I'm going to give the Quick 861DW a shot. It appears to be well made and people who have used it say that it's much higher quality than the other less expensive stations. Has anyone used or looked into the Quick 712A? It looks to be the same hot air station as the 861DW but also has an iron with it for about $50 more. Not saying that I would use it, but it's nice to have a decent (I'm assuming it's decent) less expensive iron on the station for new guys to train a little on. That being said, the hot air station is the primary need and if the station isn't as good, then I'd prefer to stick with the 861.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2017, 09:59:04 pm
content: Quote from: mshockey22 on February 27, 2017, 09:24:39 pmAh, I just looked up his video about it. I was a bit suspicious of the width of the hot air wand, but the performance in the video was disappointing.The Ersa Vario looks good; I will seriously consider going that direction. Thanks!

author: Iwanushka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2017, 11:42:02 pm
content: for hot air Hakko FR-810 has best price in Europe (500eur inc VAT), quick stuff costs almost the same in EU, I have FR-810 and can't complain it takes a few seconds to remove dpack's from todays ATX motherboards where 858D would take 20 minutes and burn all the stuff. for US Weller has best price in EU its cost is double than Hakko around 1k eur...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2017, 12:32:24 am
content: Quote from: Iwanushka on February 27, 2017, 11:42:02 pmI don't see FR-810B for less than EUR 650+ and I don't agree that almost 2.5x price difference is almost the same.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2017, 01:40:43 am
content: I'm sure you'll love the JBCs.Like others, I've used pretty much all brands over the years, and find the tip range / heat up times / fast change etc etc worth it.We have dozens of different models, mostly HD, but all the others, w/tweezers etc as well. The special SM chip tips are awesome.We do a lot of large transformer terminations, and they last FAR longer than ANY other brand we've tries. We also do a lot of S/Mount.For hot air, I use a Hakko FR-801. Lots of adjustments, tips etc, but I still create my own.For desoldering, DON'T BOTHER with the JBC !! I have a near new one if you do though :-) Expensive POS, can't believe they made it. I use the Hakko 474 with the 815 handpiece.It has a very short solder travel throat which is very easy to clean.