Weller WX 2021 vs Metcal 5041 vs JBC DD vs ERSA i-CON2 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: gv260ea
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2012, 07:28:37 pm
content: Hi I'll be buying a new soldering station and I need help to chose one.These are the configs and the stations that I'm consideringWeller WX2021Includes (WXMP 55W pen and WXMT SMD Tweezer 44W)In addition WXP 120(120W) Set Fast ResponseMetcal MX5041Includes(MX-PTZ SMD Tweezer,MX-H1-AV)JBC DD StationIn addition(2xAD Holder,PA Holder,T210 Micro hand piece,T470-A Comfort Hand piece,PA120 Micro Tweezer)ERSA Icon-2Includes(SMD Tweezer(Chip Tool),I-tool(150W))Note : I'll also be buying loads of tips and there is no budget limitation.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2012, 07:55:26 pm
content: IMO JBCI would get the 245B handpiece also and focus the vast majority of the tips for it and only get the super small and super big tips for the 210 and 470 handpieces. 245 has the widest selection of specialty tips and can probably do all your soldering anyway.I don't know about the other two stations but why buy a metcal that has no adjustable temp? Yes you can change tip to change temp but who wants to buy double or triple of each tip shape and then your still stuck to the fixed temp ranges they supply. The JBC is simpler technology and has equal or higher thermal response and fully adjustable temp.You will never be the same after soldering with the JBC.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2012, 08:02:40 pm
content: Another vote for JBC.I have a Weller WD1 with both the WMP and WP80 irons. Not horrible by any means, but they're not as fast at recovery vs. JBC's I've seen.Regarding Metcal, I'm withrobrentzon this; for bench use, an adjustable temperature model makes more sense IMHO (Metcal makes sense in a production environment, as the operator can't screw up any settings). Never used Ersa. They look decent, but I still have the impression that they're not as fast as JBC based on videos on YT.

author: jahonen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2012, 08:05:21 pm
content: Quote from: gv260ea on December 27, 2012, 07:28:37 pmMy choice would be JBC based on current experience, but haven't really tried Ersa so take that as a biased opinion.BTW, just wondering, if no budget limitation, why not consider DM station also, it supports four simultaneous tools instead of two that DD supports. That way you could get all those (T210, T470 and PA120) powered at the same time ready for action according to your work needs.Regards,Janne

author: vzoole
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2012, 11:04:27 pm
content: No question... JBC!But buy a T245 handpiece too, it'a most common.One hand tip change is the best!It has a best iron holder.And many other reason... but one result, buy JBC.Check the weller, impossible to handle it cause of magnet holder.

author: zaoka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2012, 12:52:06 am
content: If you can afford it get JBC !!I have AD2700 its old model, heats up in 2-3 seconds. It uses 2245 iron, tips on eBay are $10 each and they last forever. I never bought the same tip for JBC twice.If you can get used JBC with 2245 iron thats the way to go, sometimes ebay got them for $150. They are high quality so as long as its not cracked dont worry it will work for years.ERSA is also very very good.Also consider PACE and GOOT.

author: vtp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2012, 09:51:07 am
content: Hi everyone,I am in the same position as the OP. However, I have been considering mostly Weller WX2021 due to past experience with the same tools but different station. I have no experience on other tools so I cannot give any opinions about them.That Weller tool holder with magnet is used to turn off the tool when inserted in holder. This creates a situation where the tool turns on/off (or to lowered temperature) all the time when using the soldering iron. It took about a year for one tip to fail due to thermal cycling. This of course was not very nice due to the hassle of getting a new one - they were not stocked locally at the time.Otherwise, I had no problems with Weller microtools. Also, the 40W pen/tip is very useful for soldering larger components too, 20W is ok only for small SMT (did that for about 10 years with MLR-21).At home I now have a WR3M station equipped with WP80, HAP200 and DSX80. WP80 is ok for generic use and at 80W even larger components are very easy to solder. It's tips (LT-series) are not very useful for small SMT - the reason I am in the market for tools for something smaller.JBC could be an interesting alternative but availability here appears to be poor.

author: aghp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2012, 10:30:16 am
content: There is three choices. 1. Metcal, 2. Metcal, 3 Metcal and then next some adjustabe temperature "everyplace hobby solder"Just as clever as if you are buying second handgoodprofessional analog oscilloscopes: There is three posibilities. Tek, Tek and Tek... (but you need know what Tek and how to separate waste and crap from exellent. And still in this day, many peoples who know, want keep this all Tek knowledge tightly in they pocket and safe behind billfold.If you have right solder and right tips for Metcal... why need play around and adjust temperatures. Of course it is nice playing with temp control but is is working or playing.. I do not know.I have never seen so terrible things than hobbyist who have cheap crap and then he adjust temperature to over 450 celsius becouse can not desolder and take component away from holes in PCB. Just becouse his tool can not inject enough thermal power to where it need and then compensate this with high temperature set. Problem is not tip temp, problem is in heat tranfer and bad poor thermal design.I have never meet this problem with Metcal.Also soldering need do just right temperature and not under or over. Bad tool leads many times to too high temp and then temp radically drops just you touch it to solder point and add tin.. result is really poor guality in joint. This is much more complex than many think.But, this know just after have tried lot of different tools and then try with real tool. (but of course Metcal need different tips for different temp and for different works, and they are not cheap. But there is : what you pay is what you get.)But one disclaimer, I have not any experience with JBC and they may be very good on the datasheets and other "papers".

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2012, 11:07:19 am
content: I'm happy with an Icon-2. If you buy one, also get additional fixing rings for each pair of tips for the chip-tool and additional tip fasteners (2 colors available) for the i-tool.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2012, 11:34:48 am
content: If you have sufficient power without overshoot you don't need temp adjustment.Not used JBC but they look pretty good - a few people I know who've used both say JBC is better, but as Metcal is so far ahead of other irons I'm not sure the additional difference can be that great. . I have a gazillion Metcal tips so won't be changing any time soon..Metcal and JBC would certainly be the first choice - I think JBC is slightly cheaper, but check things like tip range, availability and cost as this may make a significant difference.Also chack out Thermaltronics - basically a Metcal MX5000-a-like.Tip-wise you definitely want a couple of long T blades - A tunnel tip for SO-8's is also very handy.I don't know if JBC do a vacuum desoldering handpiece, but Metcal's one is awesome for desoldering through-plated holes cleanly, even on multilayer.Another thing I like about Metcal - I think JBC is similar is the very short top to handle distance, with no handle heating, making fine work very easy. I don't think the metcal 'superfine' handpiece is worth it as the normal one is fine.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2012, 07:03:00 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 28, 2012, 11:34:48 amI agree completely. The only time I adjust temp is when I solder high precision surface mount resistors with a tip temp of 260C. This is peak reflow temp allowed to avoid resistance change from over temp. When you have extremely fast thermal response you cant even tell that you are soldering at that low a temperature.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2012, 07:06:08 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 28, 2012, 11:34:48 amThey do, and even offer two sizes (micro and standard).

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2012, 10:34:27 pm
content: that weller toolstand is a good one but damn expensive. as for the magnet and the reed switch in the wrmp pencil you can set it to standby or simply on off takes 4 secs max to heat up.if i would buy mine i would buy the jbc tool too much cheaper tips heat transfer there was a video on this forum with a cup of water and a jbc iron that thing kept the temp amazing i tried the same with my weller wrmp+rt11 tip modul quickly fell to 100C accoring to the station and didnt go above untill i removed the tip from water. i wonder on their modular line station the single one says can provide 130watts peak. but for how long?the multi channels ones dont mention if the quoted power is/channel or not. but from the input fuse rating i dare to say its per channel

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2012, 01:11:41 am
content: Quote from: vtp on December 28, 2012, 09:51:07 amTo be clear, that's all configurable. There's an optional "setback" timer after which the temperature is lowered to the configurable standby temperature, and an optional "off" timer which turns the iron off.

author: vtp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2012, 10:37:51 am
content: Quote from: andersm on December 29, 2012, 01:11:41 amYes, thank you for the clarification. In my case it was set for standby temperature.I also read some other threads here on soldering irons and it seems like there is a lot of feelings (almost like religious fanaticism) involved when it comes to Metcal irons.I probably am just not "getting it" how fixed temp tips would make a good general purpose soldering system.There was also a link to JBC comparison of different irons and according to that Metcal fared quite badly in terms of keeping the temperature when soldering. The document name was "performance-comparison_1209.pdf", I guess that should be enough for search engines.Temperature adjustability gives a lot of freedom in working with various dielectrics like LDPE, polyester, mylar etc. Not all soldering is done on FR4. Temperature control is there to have control over the tip temperature, how well that temperature is maintained is mostly up to the station handling the control loop. Regarding this, I would very much appreciate if anyone with WX-2021 or similar station (WX-2, I think) could chime in with his experience.

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 29, 2012, 10:56:44 pm
content: Quote from: vtp on December 29, 2012, 10:37:51 amIt's pretty simple, actually. If you have a very tight "control loop", then the tip temperature will not change much, no matter what load you throw at it. The tip will stay at pretty much the same temperature all the time.Now, the solder has a specific melting point. All you need is to get (a bit) above it to do your work. The issue with simple soldering stations is that you have a pretty big thermal mass between the actual tip and the sensing element, usually, with JBC being an exception here, of course. What that means is the following:Usually the sensing element is closer to the heater than the tip. So once the station reaches the target temperature after power up, the tip itself is still a bit colder than that. Only after a while the temperatures equalize a bit better, but still the tip (being exposed to the air) is a tad colder.Now you place the tip onto a solder joint. What happens is that the tip cools down rather quickly. Due to the thermal mass it takes a while for the sensing element to actually notice that. Once it does, it turns on the heater. Which itself has a lag, plus the thermal mass to the tip. Many stations try to remedy that by trying to maintain a higher heater temp than what you actually set for the tip. Which leads to overshoot.In case of a large thermal mass at your solder joint things get really bad, since whatever the heater produces is basically instantly sucked away.Metcal, with the fixed temperature tips, works on a completely different principle. In these tip cartridges you basically have a transformer, with the secondary shorted. However, that secondary is made of a special alloy which, once it reaches a certain temperature, ceases to "be a shorted winding". Since they use RF, all that is very small, tiny in fact. All you have is a tiny copper slug, which is the actual tip, cladded in that special material. Around that is a coil, a few turns only. So once it reaches temp, it ceases to consume energy. Once you draw heat from it, thus cooling it down, it starts to consume energy, heating it up again.Since all that is so small in physical dimension, you have a virtually instant response.There simply is no need to adjust the temp: the specified temp is always maintained within a very narrow window, no matter what. Of course, if you want to melt some plastics with your soldering iron's tip, it would be great to have the temp lowered for that, otherwise you just burn it away. But then, given the nasty and aggressive chemicals in plastics, i would rather not recommend to do that anywaysAttached are two images. One is a 2-Cent coin soldered to a bare PCB, that is, just copper-clad with 35µ copper. The next is the same, just viewed from the side. The last one shows the used solder tip in comparison. It's 0.4mm tip. Soldering the coin to the copper took less than a minute, most of that time was spent rotating the board with the coin on it around.Try that with a regular station, while being able to solder fine SMD parts after that, without changing the temp settingGreetings,Chris

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2012, 06:13:05 am
content: Copper coated steel blank 2 Euro cent, made in South Africa................ Costs about 30 cents to make, so now you know why defacing currency is a punishable offence.Good demo of the need for controlled power and low thermal mass along with a low impedance thermal path.

author: gv260ea
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2012, 03:29:01 pm
content: Quote from: vtp on December 29, 2012, 10:37:51 amI would appreciate it as well.

author: wkb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 09:15:02 pm
content: Quote from: aghp on December 28, 2012, 10:30:16 amAmen to that! I own a Metcal and a Weller WECP, the latter has not seen any use anymore once I repaired the Metcal (it was a dumpster-diving Metcal :-)

author: xenocide702
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2013, 04:45:08 pm
content: Sorry if it's bad form to bump and old thread (please move/delete if it is). I've just been wrestling with this very decision and found this thread while googling around.I use metcals and hakko 951s at work, both seem like good units. My main concern with the metcal is that isn't the output power somewhat low? The newest metcal we have at work is an MX-500, and at only 40 watts it struggles to keep up with some huge heatsunk areas. I'm also not thrilled with having to buy different heat range cartridges.I love the looks of the JBC CD-1BC. It seems to keep tighter control of temps than a metcal, and with more than twice the power. I'm not sure I'd want to spring for the DIT series. I'd hate that the holder is attached, but is it really worth the extra coin? Is the sensor in the handle or the stand (could you hack something up in another stand to keep the sleep/hibernate function)?

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2013, 05:32:03 pm
content: Jbc station are the world best!

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2013, 08:00:14 pm
content: Quote from: xenocide702 on May 12, 2013, 04:45:08 pmThat would depend on you IMHO.For example, if you want to run multiple tools, separates would be the way to go (even for a single port; just swap tools as needed). Less expensive than buying dedicated units for each tool type.It also gives you more flexibility as to where everything is located, but will be more expensive. So if this isn't critical, skip it IMHO.BTW, the stands use an electrical connection to the power & control head (circuit is completed once you drop the iron in the stand through the metal collar on the iron).

author: xenocide702
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2013, 08:39:59 pm
content: I do have a metcal STSS-002 power supply (ebay score for cheap), I figure if I get the itch I could always pick up a desoldering pump or tweezers for it. At least it'd be reasonably easy to kludge up another stand if I really couldn't deal with the integrated one. I think I'm pretty well sold on the JBC then.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2013, 11:33:59 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on May 12, 2013, 05:32:03 pmUntil you have used Ersa... I have used a JBC a lot at my former employer but I won't trade my Ersa soldering station for a JBC if I could get the JBC for free. The difference is not so much in the station itself but the tips from Ersa pick up solder very easy and keep doing that even if you leave the soldering iron on full temperature for many hours (my Ersa soldering station is so old it doesn't have standby). I can't comment on Metcal or Pace though.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2013, 05:53:21 am
content: Ditto, I have an Ersa iCon-1 and it is by far the best I had ever used before I got it. I have used a JBC several times now at a friend's and it is also very good, but I much prefer the ergonomics of the Ersa I-Tool soldering iron compared to the JBC. The tips on the Ersa are also easily hot-swappable, just like the JBC. I think they are the two best temp-controlled irons on the market for sure, and it really more or less comes down to personal preference in this case.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2013, 09:40:37 am
content: I've considered getting Ersa iCon nano, but then decided it's too low power, and higher power ones were too expensive.What is the actual principle of operation of iCon irons? They are supposed to be fixed/automatic temperature setting type. Is it a conventional heater like for example JBC or RF as in Metcal? What kind of tip does it have? Integrated with heater as in JBC, or separate as in Hakkos?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2013, 03:37:50 pm
content: Quote from: poorchava on May 15, 2013, 09:40:37 amThey're conventional systems, and the heater is separate from the tip.

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2013, 05:13:31 pm
content: Quote from: poorchava on May 15, 2013, 09:40:37 amI'm happy with my Ersa iCon nano. It heats up very quickly. I haven't stressed it with soldering engine blocks or anything major so it may lack power for some applications.I posted some photos on this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/ersa-vs-hakko-soldering-stations-and-a-question-on-%27anti-static%27/30/

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2013, 08:10:23 am
content: Here is a link with better info for the Ersa line of i-Con stations and I-Tool irons. This was a major PITA to find, I wandered Google for hours before it turned up on a German website. Luckily I read German...although I'm sure one could get the gist by using Google Translate.http://web154.server3.keller-brennecke.de/index.php?modul=static&id=120

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2013, 08:50:30 am
content: Quote from: eKretz on May 16, 2013, 08:10:23 amAlso I found that the pre-sales support (in English) was very good from Ersa themselves, they answered my e-mails promptly and in detail. I was pleasantly surprised as I wasn't a big customer and I often find that organizations fail to respond at all to private individuals asking questions or you get some non-technical person who fobs you off with waffle.This was particularly useful to me because though my aunt is German, my knowledge of the language is down to the remnants of a beginners course I took a few years ago!