Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Neper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 05:48:58 pm
content: I've just bought and returned two benchtop DMMs within a week of each other, both around 200 euros: a UNI-T UT8803E and a OWON XDM2041.While the first had the worst software I've ever seen in any appliance and should never have left a factory with a half-decent QA department, the second was still no better than my 25 year old Finest 7130. The OWON and the Finest both have trouble measuring resistance over about 200 kohms. The displayed value jumps up and down, with the old one even switching ranges.With the exception of the bigger and clearer displays, the two modern DMMs were barely as good or even worse than the old one. Still, the Finest's display is losing contrast and its membrane keys are disintegrating. So, I need something new, sooner or later.Earlier this year, I've bought a Rigol DS1102ZE scope and I'm quite happy with it. It does all I need and a lot more and it takes up a fifth of the space of my old Philips PM3219 analog storage scope. The Rigol cost under 250 euros.The next step up in DMM prices seems to be around 400 euros and I have no idea if those are any good.Why the heck is a decent DMM with far fewer knobs, connectors, a simpler display and much less processor power more expensive than a perfectly useable scope?Ralf

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 05:57:21 pm
content: Look at the Vichy VC8145

author: Neper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 05:59:41 pm
content: Unavailable in Europe unless you want to import one from the US or China.Ralf

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 06:04:51 pm
content: Quote from: Neper on August 27, 2021, 05:59:41 pmAnd what is the problem with that? Order it and it will get delivered. Aliexpress includes the VAT nowadays so no surprises with customs charges. I have a couple of VC8145 DMMs as daily drivers for about a decade now. BTW: I also have a Keysight 34461A 6.5 digit DMM but that sees way less use.Another brand to consider is GW Instek but that will take you into the 300 to 400 euro range.

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 06:43:00 pm
content: A bench DMM has some advantages over a handheld DMM, but you can also find areas where a handheld is better.Some of the advantages of a bench DMM (I do not look at cheap bench DMMs that is basically a handheld in a bench box):Always works, it will never run out of batteries.Statistic: can show min/max/average/sdev for any range.Charts: Can show a value over time or distribution of values.Log to USBComputer connectionsAdjustment of sample rate, filtering, etc.Good precision.The general issue with test equipment pricing is that China has found out that there is a market in test equipment, but not all manufacture has got the memo about about user interface being part of the equation. The general idea is that more functions is better (I sort of agree with that), but making them logical in the user interface is lacking.I have a few Chinese bench DMM, one is the ET3240, it has a lot functions, but you really play around with the meter to find all of them (Keysight & Keithley is much more logical) and interfacing it to a computer is not just to follow the manual.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 06:45:23 pm
content: Quote from: Neper on August 27, 2021, 05:48:58 pmThe most significant factor in price is "how much should I charge to maximize profit". There are exceptions, of course.For any item, if a customer values the item more than the value of the price of the item, a transaction will occur. If I value $30 more than I value that beautiful flower bouquet, I wont buy that -- but, the next day, may be I have a date with a beautify lady and want some flowers for the lucky lady. So, I may value that very same flower bouquet more than I value $30 dollars in my pocket. A transaction will occur. But then may be I need that $30 to buy the theater ticket and I value being able to take my date to the theater more than the flowers, so ... We do similar calculations all the time. Cost vs benefit.It follows that the lower the price is, the easier it is for the customer to value the benefit over the cost. Correspondingly, the lower the price, the lower the profit. That is a calculation that manufacturers, distributors (bulk-sellers) and retailers do all the time.The knobs and whatever make the thing functional and functionality increases the value that widget can provide. But a manufacturer doesn't worry about how many knobs, attachments, wires, or copper it contains. A manufacturer worry about if I charge X, I will sell Y units resulting in Z profit. What should X be to get the maximum Z.The number of unit sold is not always in that equation, as long as Y is > 0 (ie: someone will buy). Making it exclusive (a smaller Y) may actually increase customer-perceived value so I can have a bigger X. That may actually increase total profit. Luxury items exist for that reason.So there, price has nothing to do with knobs, functionality, so on. Those are just a way that may increase customer perceived (or actual) functionality thus the perceived value by the customer.

author: Neper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 07:02:14 pm
content: In my book, it's exactly knobs, connectors, rotary encoders and switches - mechanics in general - that cost a lot in production. Far more than electronics. And they're more expensive to mount. This is why they've all done away with pots, switches and the like in favour of membrane keyboards and menues.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 07:15:43 pm
content: What decent 'scope can you buy for 200 Euros?

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 07:30:10 pm
content: Don't forget that scope is to show waveforms not to actually MEASURE anything.. Bench meter is as good as it reference and reference is as good as its resistors... I'll suggest some exposure of volt nuttery talk in metrology sectionJust be warned it is expensive decease.

author: Neper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 08:45:12 pm
content: As I wrote in the first post of this thread:QuoteWell, I suppose next you'll tell me that this isn't a decent scope, right?Ralf

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 10:05:36 pm
content: Quote from: HKJ on August 27, 2021, 06:43:00 pmDo you need all that? It is very tempting to pile on all kinds of features. Somehow people seem to think bench DMMs should have all kinds of bells and whistles. In reality a bench DMM versus handheld is basically powercord versus batteries and stackable versus needing space on a bench. Thats it! The reason for me to buy the VC8145s was stackable and no batteries. Didn't need any extra features compared to typical handhelds (even though the VC8145 can do stuff like averaging/min-max and computer communication).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 04:20:22 am
content: Quote from: Neper on August 27, 2021, 08:45:12 pmNo, I'm saying it isn't cheaper than those DMMs.Quote from: Vtile on August 27, 2021, 07:30:10 pmYes but they have real screens and a lot more processing power than a DMM.At the end of the day the price is down to supply/demand/marketing. Oscilloscopes are a much hotter market than bench DMMs so the price is proportionally lower..

author: 1audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 05:44:56 am
content: Now that scopes have such powerful measurement capabilities for may troubleshooting tasks you do not need a DVM at all. How often do you need more that 3 1/2 digits of resolution for testing? You just can't measure resistance through a scope probe so you need a meter.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 06:05:36 am
content: Quote from: 1audio on August 28, 2021, 05:44:56 amResolution is limiting in some situations, but the accuracy difference between scopes and DMMs is roughly proportional to the resolution (relatively balanced performance specs). DMMs quickly jump to 0.1% or 0.01% accuracy and across wider temperature ranges/less calibration.Quote from: Vtile on August 27, 2021, 07:30:10 pmWell said, its interesting that we're not seeing more online auto-calibration in DMMs to get around some of that.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 06:23:14 am
content: Quote from: Neper on August 27, 2021, 08:45:12 pmDefine "decent".The Rigol is an excellent value, it provides a lot of bang for the buck and is very good for what it is, an entry level scope, but it is still an entry level scope. The Rigol is to oscilloscopes what one of the $30-$60 handheld meters is to DMMs. It's decent, but it's not a Tek, Keysight, etc. If you want a nice professional bench meter, be prepared to pay more than what a low end DSO costs.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 06:24:34 am
content: Quote from: 1audio on August 28, 2021, 05:44:56 amWhen I'm troubleshooting something I tend to rely very heavily on the diode test function of my meter, I can't do that with a scope.

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 08:00:28 am
content: hm, I thought a bench DMM is used if you need much more precision/accuracy and a few other things (maybe LAN interface and additional things) handheld units can't do.I know precision and accuracy is not as ease as to say handheld < Benchtop, but for me it would only make sense to have a decent bench top unit if it has better benefits regarding specs accuracy, precision, usability than any of the high end handheld units do have?Am I wrong? Really I appreciate every opinion as I'm also considering in upgrading my equipment with an additional bench top unit but it has to be "better" than my handheld unit.I have the Metrix 3293BT, so I think it's a decent high end handheld unit as the higher priced Fluke 289 or Gossen Metrawatt are.PS.: The only benefit of using a handheld meter packet into a bench top case like the mentioned cheaper VC or Uni-T models is: stackable no need to replace batteries, maybe 4W R measurement?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 08:16:22 am
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on August 28, 2021, 08:00:28 amHi Markus,I bought Metrix MT3293 because i think it is better than both Fluke 289 and GM high end . GM is not graphic, and F 289 shows its age.It's been fantastic so far. It is my primary meter now, right next BM869 that has much BIGGER numbers....Bench meters? Well power is not a problem to me, Metrix can work plugged in, and never had a problem with batteries on other meters... When they go you change them and that is all. I always have spares because I have dozens of devices that run on them.So for me bench meters are all about higher precision and 4W ohms.

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 10:03:42 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 28, 2021, 08:16:22 amExactly I'm with you! The Metrix (newer version yellow Chauvin Arnoux) is a great device and is much more up2date than Fluke 289 and Gossen - dunno why they don't upgrade (e.g. for Fluke 289) their high end handheld series with better Display, graphing etc. that shouldn't cost to much todays!But besides the great performance of the Metrix, what would be a great addition bench top Multimeter? of course with higher accuracy, resolution features etc?I'm thinking of the Keithley DM6500 maybe?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 10:37:47 am
content: Quote from: Neper on August 27, 2021, 05:48:58 pmBecause the complexity in a cheap scope is in the software and user interface, while the complexity in a bench DMM is in the bits of hardware deeper in the box.Most bench DMMs focus on accuracy and precision. Maintaining high accuracy becomes exponentially harder as you increase precision. Noise becomes a huge issue to deal with. And you want all this while having decent input protection.Oscilloscopes are not designed for high accuracy or precision, because measuring is not their job. Their hardware complexity is from needing to support high speeds.Consider this: a cheap oscilloscope (as well as most expensive ones) usually has an 8-bit ADC. Every sample is literally just one of 256 values (possible values 0-255). Consider an error of 0.1%: that’d be less than a single step, so wouldn’t even change the sampled value and thus wouldn’t change the waveform at all. Also, take the absolute voltage difference each step in value represents: a low end scope like the Rigol DS1054Z goes down to1mv/div at the lowest range4mV/div at the lowest non-software-magnified range, times 8 divisions, so the 256 values represent8mV32mV, thus31.25μV125μV per step.A modest 5.5 digit multimeter might be 110000 counts (i.e. a dynamic range of 1:220000, since it can be positive or negative). The accuracy required is thusvastlylarger: the same 0.1% error now represents1100 counts!As you add digits, the effort in circuit design and component quality required to achieve accuracy on your least significant digit becomes enormous. Even just the cheap 4.5 digit OWON XDM2041 you mentioned needs to discriminate 1μV per step in its lowest range —almost32125 times more precisethan the scope.DMMs do part of this by being much slower. A cheap scope might measure 1 billion samples per second, while even a high end bench DMM will usually only measure up to a few thousand times per second. An 8.5 digit bench meter can takesecondsfor a single measurement at the settings with the smallest error.A cheap scope certainly requires care in design, too, due to the frequencies involved, but nonetheless doesn’t need to be particularlyaccuratehardware. So you can get away with cheap components in many places. What you need is speed, and as it turns out, modern digital electronics are really good at giving us speed for cheap. So a comparatively simple analog front end feeds into comparatively inexpensive digital electronics that use fancy software to run a big screen and the accompanying buttons.A DMM can’t really use high speed digital electronics to significantly improve its accuracy; the analog part has to get it right, right from the start, and that costs money. That analog part also generally handles much higher maximum voltages (typically ±1000V on a DMM vs ±300V on a scope).(Some modern bench DMMs can operate somewhere in between, like the Keithley DMM6500, being able to measure 1 million times per second — but only in 16 bits, which is just 65536 different values, not the 2.4 million different values it can tell apart at slow speeds.)Edit: Edited to reflect 2N3055’s correction regarding the Rigol’s hardware.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 11:20:30 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 28, 2021, 10:37:47 amRigol DS1054Z actually goes down to 4mv/div at the lowest range. Less that that is software zoom. So on 1 mV/div it is a 6 bit scope. 125 uV/ step

author: Neper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 12:29:36 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 28, 2021, 10:37:47 amThanks a lot for the first comprehensive and sensible explanation I've seen on this subject.@all others: Thanks for your contributions. My reasons for wanting a bench meter are simple: the real estate on my workbench is very limited, so something to be put higher up is needed. And no, I don't run a calibration lab. 0.1 percent is absolutely fine with me, so I have no need for 6 or more digit resolution and it doesn't ned to be better than the average handheld meter. The functions and precision of those 200 euro DMMs would be fine if it weren't for the terrible software and the unsteady display on higher resistance measurements. Besides, I was shocked to see that they're no better than my 25 year old DMM, supposedly of Taiwanese origin.Ralf

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 12:38:26 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on August 28, 2021, 10:03:42 amThat is not easy question.For approx 5 years I have DM3068 from Rigol. It works well. I wish screen was bigger. I use it mostly for 4W Ohms, and for more precise measurements. I use it with scripts too, for longer logging.I was thinking of upgrading to Keysight 34465 or Keithley DM6500, mainly because they have slightly tighter drift specs, some more features, bigger screen.34465 has autocal, that would make a difference in my lab that doesn't have tight temp control.DM6500 actually has tighter DC voltage specs on some ranges.34465 has AC measurements implemented using sampling and not RMS converter chip. That makes it much better for AC measurements.DM6500 has more modern GUI and touch screen. It is also less software stable because of all that complexity and not having all the buttons is a problem sometimes..DM6500 is quite cheaper than 34465...Then there is a question of service and calibration. Keysight has great facility in Germany and their prices for calibration are better than Keithley. OTOH, recently it seems Keysight is refusing service to individuals with privately owned equipment. You will be served only if it is a company. So there is that, I wonder if they might drop all small customers soon, even small companies..There are third party calibration labs that might be able to calibrate/adjust both of those for a good price.I want to try Siglent SDM3065X to see if I like it.. It is clearly inspired by Keysight 3446x series concept, which is not a bad thing.If you're going to use 6.5 digit meter to full potential, you also need to make or buy environmental monitor. Both your meters and DUT will clearly show changes in temp and humidity. You will need to log those together with measurements to look for correlations. An then you start going down the rabbit hole of Voltnutting...And few years passed by and I didn't upgrade, because I didn't have immediate need.

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 01:11:43 pm
content: Quote from: Neper on August 28, 2021, 12:29:36 pmThat`s my problem: I don't need it but I want it! More digits more accuracy, precision and of course trueness. Just to show how the different Meters read values and provide good information and examples to my student :-) (as I'm a teacher and preparing material for my students at home because equipment in school is not as good as the one I buy from my own money - yes I'm a little crazy I know).@neper: have you already made a decision on which device you will go for, or which ones now come into close considerationQuote from: 2N3055 on August 28, 2021, 12:38:26 pm@2N3055: I took Keysight, Keithley into consideration, thanks for the details. Also I will have a closer look at Siglent and maybe also the GW-Instek, what do you think?Regarding calibration: yes I hope those devices are "stable enough", so I don't have to calibrate them over the years and still get good results! I think it should be possible, since im not really running a Lab which needs calibrated devices for any quality and other reasons etc... (Im not selling something or earning my money with devices only with teaching")

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 01:18:16 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on August 28, 2021, 01:11:43 pmIn all truthfulness, Iwouldrecommend to calibrate it at least ONCE, after 3-5 years. Because whatever you hear even big brands will drift a bit in first 1-2 years. After 3 years they will be mostly stable to few PPMs of whatever it is they mean to be for the rest of their multimeter life..So if you calibrate after 3-5 years, then you might keepreally goodaccuracy for years to come. Stable and better than outside boundaries of specifications. Much better.

author: Neper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 03:12:22 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on August 28, 2021, 01:11:43 pmElectronics, mostly audio and radio equipment, is just one of my hobbies and the DMM is a only means to an end in this context.QuoteGiven that I'm happy with my Rigol scope, I'm trying to convince myself to spend more than twice my original limit on a Rigol DM3058E. Or maybe a Siglent SDM3045X. No hurry, though...Ralf

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 03:27:08 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 28, 2021, 01:18:16 pmExactly, just look at how good the HP/AG/KS 34401As are todayBest

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 06:19:12 pm
content: Quote from: Neper on August 28, 2021, 12:29:36 pmHi Ralf,How far are you from Zurich? My boss just told me we have some old test gear to get rid of, among it a number of Keithley 175 bench meters. I’d rather they go to good homes than in the trash. They’re basic by today’s standards for a bench meter but compare well to a typical handheld. 4.5 digits.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 06:26:16 pm
content: The problem as I see it is that the common bench top meters these days are built to be high precision devices. That is there are few bench top meters that are at handheld in their precision, and as a result I think this misses an important segment of the market. Well in my mind anyways, as it would be nice to have a bench top meter that is equivalent to a handheld DMM as you often don't need high precision. If you think about it how often do you need 5.5 or 6.5 digits of precision in any measurement, especially on a bench focused on audio work or industrial electronics. Sometimes safety and a decent to read display is the important thing.So I have to agree, none of the mainstream manufactures offer a decent low cost bench top. That leaves a bunch of Chinese manufactures, some you have never heard of, to fill the niche. Nothing yet from these manufactures is highly refined in my opinion.The other thing here is people with expectations of high end systems type instrument performance out of anything low cost. You simply do not get the performance or utility out of things like capacitance and resistance measurements out of these low cost instruments. On most multimeters, regardless of cost, I consider the capacitance tests to be near worthless and is the reason for LCR meters and other specialized test hardware. In other words I really believe high expectations often are a problem with low cost and midrange multimeters.

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 08:55:15 pm
content: Quote from: wizard69 on August 28, 2021, 06:26:16 pmtotally agree, I would say: you get what you pay for :-)So can we state thatthe cheaper Benchtop devices (in most cases) will not compete to the higher end Handheld units, regarding accuracy and precision.and if you want higher precision, accuracy and trueness, you have to look for the higher priced brandname tiers?!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 09:23:00 pm
content: Quote from: Neper on August 28, 2021, 03:12:22 pmAll three SDM models lined up and measuring the same source here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg3651931/#msg3651931

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 07:07:11 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 28, 2021, 09:23:00 pmYes the Siglent SDM3065X looks very promising, do have to dig deeper into reviews of this great unit.This is indeed a higher priced unit, but not as high as Keysight or Keithley. But I would consider it as high end Benchto-DMM :-)Tautech is leading me to the "Siglent Side of Measurement" :-) Thanks

author: Neper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 10:30:54 am
content: Rigol are having one of their promos with the DM3058E at 439 euros. Siglent have promptly followed suit with their SDM3045X at the same price.Ralf

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 02:36:23 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on August 29, 2021, 07:07:11 amWe have the SDM3065X, Keysight KS34465A, as well as a HP34401A and Agilent 34401A, and are using all of them. We've had the SDM3065A a couple weeks now, unfortunately it was received out of calibration date wise due to COVID which caused shipping/stocking delays but that's another story.The SDM3065X is quite good and stable with many features similar/copied to/from the KS. It uses the well known LM399 reference, probably the best long term reference outside the LTZ1000 (used in the KS34470A & 3458A), although likely not aged like the KS. We use the LM399 and LTZ1000 as voltage references for precision use, and used these references for comparison of the SDM to the KS, HP and Agilent.So having actually verified some performance parameters and usage of the SDM3065X against these other established DMMs, I can confidently say the above.It's not a KS tho, which is more refined, has a brighter and better display, the Trent chart features are much better implemented, the RMS measurement method is superior, as is the core ADC implementation derived from the long history of HP/Agilent superb DMMs.However, the KS is twice the price of the SDM which must be considered. We purchased the SDM to replace the aging HP34401A, which is losing it's display, not as a KS34465A equivalent.Anyway, hope this helps from a former "teacher of EE" (adjunct grad school Prof).Best,

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 03:06:49 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on August 29, 2021, 02:36:23 pmThere are a few mods to replace the faded displays with more recent types, e.g.:https://hackaday.com/2018/08/29/faded-beauty-dmm-gets-an-oled-makeover/https://github.com/openscopeproject/HP34401a-OLED-FW

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 03:24:59 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on August 29, 2021, 03:06:49 pmThanks, we will not entrust the old HP34401A to the dumpsterIt will be resurrected with a replacement display or a modified display when time permits, in the meantime the SDM3065X is acting as it's measurement replacementBest,

author: Neper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2021, 04:12:27 pm
content: My Siglent SDM3045X has arrived today. Just tested the (for me) most important functions and it appears to fit the bill.Ralf

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2021, 05:04:06 pm
content: I also have a Siglent DMM and it's great for what I do. No more battery worries, no tipping over a handheld, or wearing out the rotary switch.But 1 thing tho, is now I really better take the batteries out of my handheld meters, I rarely use them anymore.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 01:36:49 am
content: There are several reasons I prefer a bench meter (in my case, I got the SDM3055, because the price difference between that and the SDM3045X is low enough to justify the extra flexibility of the additional digit):- It's guaranteed to be within reach of the bench, making it very convenient- It's very fast. Handheld meters with comparable speed tend to carry comparable prices- It's as precise as you need it to be, while still being very fast- The display is large and very easy to read, more so than most handhelds- It has useful features that most handhelds don't have, such as an auto-hold mechanism (meaning, you can take your eyes off the meter when performing the measure)with historyOf course, in the case of the SDM3055 I got, the price is higher than most handhelds, butnot all. Many premium handhelds command an even higher price. For instance, the Keysight U1280 series, the Fluke 289 (and, actually, half the Fluke lineup!), most of Gossen's lineup, etc. While you might say it's not fair to compare a well-respected Chinese brand bench multimeter to premium brand handhelds, I think it is, because I've not seen a meter by anything other than those premium brands that has the functionality of even the SDM3045X. And in any case, the comparison here is really between bench multimeters and oscilloscopes, and if you remain within a given brand for both, you'll find that the scope prices almost always at least meet, if not exceed, the bench meter prices. For instance, the price that a Keysight 34460A meter fetches is about $1100. That's a 6.5 digit multimeter. And that's about the same price as their 70 MHz DSOX1204A which is their lowest-end 4 channel scope. Similarly, the Siglent SDM3045X is $389, while the Siglent SDS1102X-E is $379, and the latter is the very bottom of Siglent's reasonably recent scope lineup.If you argue that the mission of each meter type (handheld versus bench) is different, you'd be right. But there's a lot of overlap, especially for lab use. Bench meters are obviously targeted more directly at lab use. And while they cost more than cheap handheld meters, they provide more capability for it. But they certainlydon'tcost more than most oscilloscopes, really, when you get right down to it.

author: marcus h
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 08:53:46 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 27, 2021, 06:04:51 pmThe purchase and the delivery is usually not the problem.Ignoring the potential customs hassle (depends entirely on the seller, some have local depots here in Germany) there are a two really big incentives to purchase from a local seller in Germany:We have severalfederal lawsthat empower the customer:1) The warranty laws are extensive and (in short) the seller has to prove within the first six months that the product wasn't defective. After this period the customer has further 18 month period where he can prove that the product was indeed defective from the start (example: a software error that only manifests itself after some time).2) Even more powerful: Online(!) customers can return ANY purchase within 14 days - no questions asked. You (usually) only pay for the transport.Note that these laws apply to "business to private" commercial sales, but not to "private to private" Ebay auctions etc.The OP obviously made use of 2) twice as per his thread starter posting. He stated his reasons and they boil down to the devices being unfit for his purposes.With a local seller you simply return the item and get your money back. This works 99.9% of the time and the remaining 0.1% will be cleared in your favor given enough time.Now, a German court verdict form 2013 says that these laws also apply to foreign sellers who specifically offer their products in Germany (like offering them on the German Ebay website, using German language in their offers etc.).But we all know that there is sometimes a difference between having a right and enforcing a right - and there are indeed surveys that show that foreign sellers don't honor these laws. They either don't know or don't care.ExampleI casually searched for the Vichy you recommended and there are several sellers on German Ebay for this.ThefirstChinese seller I found who actually has stock in Germany (so no customs hassle), has his own return policies.In this Ebay auctionhttps://www.ebay.de/itm/383673976526he writes:QuoteThese conditions are simply lousy for German customers:1) He shortens the six month warranty period to 14 days.2) He changes the right to return to "at his whim".I don't know if these are common Chinese sales terms but in Germany they won't fly with many customers.Personally, I would never purchase an expensive item from such a seller but YMMV, of course.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 09:28:47 am
content: Quote from: marcus h on September 05, 2021, 08:53:46 am1) You forget that you usually pay double or tripple compared to the prices on Ebay / Aliexpress if you buy from within the EU. So your warranty comes at a steep price *.2) Both Ebay and Aliexpress have good warranties for items that arrive broken (=item not as described -> refund) or items that don't arrive. Don't bother with seller's return / warranty services. I don't even read those. I read the feedback for the particular seller instead.3) Aliexpress isn't stupid; they have already adapted to avoid customs hassle for their customers by taking care of it so the customs hassle argument no longer flies.Over the years I have saved myself a boatload of money by buying from Ebay / Aliexpress. I never lost money on a unit that arrived broken or didn't arrive at all. I did lose money on a purchase from a local shop which didn't deliver and doesn't pick up the phone or answers emails. So there go your beloved customer protection laws straight out of the window. As an individual customer you have no real power to enforce anything.* Example: A while ago I bought a vacuum pump to install an AC unit. Cheapest I could find locally was around 180 euro excluding the set with hoses / manifolds. I bought a complete set from Aliexpress for les than 75 euro. The kicker is that in both cases it was exactly the same vacuum pump. Heck, I even sold it second hand with a profit!PS: The VC8145s I bought a decade ago are still going strong; still using them as my daily driver DMMs. Everything else on my bench got replaced since I bought those but I don't see them going any time soon. I'd probably buy another VC8145 if one of them breaks.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 04:59:08 pm
content: Accuracy and resolution are already mentioned as factors that drive up the hardware price. A typical scope with an 8-bit ADC is often no better then 2% deviation.Another factor that drives up hardware costs is the long term stability and drift. Nobody cares about that for an oscilloscope, while they are important for benchtop DMM's.On top of that, you also have to consider that you are comparing entry level scopes with high quality DMM's.You can have a quite good DMM for around EUR1000 while with EUR1000 you are still buying an entry level scope, although those have become extremely good at their job in the last 20 years or so. EUR20.000 for a top quality oscilloscope is no exception.Just a quick view at batronix, sorting on descending price gives an EUR46000 scope:https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Keysight-DSOX6004A-6G.htmlAnd if you have a look at some of the stuff Shariariariarrr plays with on the signal path, then prices can be a factor 10 over that.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 05:43:55 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on September 05, 2021, 04:59:08 pmNot really. A reference good enough for a 4.5 digit DMM is an off-the-shelve part costing a few euro/dollars. Nothing special about it. But you are right about your comparison on the price point. A DMM with more than 4.5 digits isn't an entry level instrument so you can't compare it to instruments which are in the entry level arena. On top of that it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that way more oscilloscopes are sold compared to bench DMMs so the NRE of designing a bench DMM is spread over less units.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 06:58:46 pm
content: To an extent, we’ve reached a point where there isn’t much of a market for 4.5 digit (never mind 3.5 digit) bench meters. Those specs are easily met by a handheld meter at fairly low cost, and I suppose that the people who need most of the extra features in bench meters also need more precision. (Or they’ve gone in the direction of specialty test gear, for example power loggers.)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 07:14:33 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 05, 2021, 06:58:46 pmNooooFor the umpteenth time: bench meters are better for stationary use compared to handhelds. Handhelds are always in the way, have a poor read-out angle, and they auto-shutdown when they are needed the most. I don't need my daily driver DMM to be very accurate. I need it to be stackable so it doesn't clutter the workspace, never run out of batteries, be clearly readable and stay on until I switch it off. For the work I do a handheld meter is super clumsy to use.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 07:27:26 pm
content: Nico, I agree with your reasoning for the use of bench multimeters, but IME I see heaps of portable DMMs (in stationary capacity) on the labs instead of bench units. Perhaps it is a cultural facet of the users or even equipment availability but, with a wide bench (common in the professional labs I know) nobody really cares about space and keep their handhelds around.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 07:44:11 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 05, 2021, 07:27:26 pmI still assume that is mostly because people don't really think about their workflow.Momentum can be hard to divert. I used to have several handhelds as well and at some point came to the conclusion that using a handheld is just sub-optimal.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 08:01:24 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on September 05, 2021, 04:59:08 pmFTA:"In the past, if you wanted an oscilloscope with exceptional performance, you could expect to pay a premium. Not anymore. "It doesn't even include the serial decoders or 20Mhz(!) AWG. You can easily add over 10000 Euros in extras that come as standard in $300 'scopes.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 08:54:08 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 05, 2021, 07:44:11 pm

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 10:22:18 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 05, 2021, 07:44:11 pmI use both.And I use handhelds on a deskbecause of workflow. Sometimes I place it in the middle of device, or right next to it in-between stuff on a desk, so I don't even have to move the head to see it. Bench meter on a shelf above is not really a good ergonomic choice for lot of measurement.Some time ago I was repairing sound mixing console, and i put multimeter inside open case next to the boards...They both have their place.I also keep scopes on a desk too, looking up and down all the time is annoying. I tried keeping them on the shelf, it didn't work for me..

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 10:28:53 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on September 05, 2021, 10:22:18 pmEquipment on a shelve sucks too. I've stopped doing that a long time ago as well. I just stack what I need for a project.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 10:45:37 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 05, 2021, 10:28:53 pmYep. Pretty much same here. I have them on the shelves because there they sit, and sometimes for something quick I might use it from there. But, for longer jobs, mostly I make collection what I'm gonna use and sit it on a desk.

author: AaronLee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 12:21:29 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on September 05, 2021, 10:22:18 pmI keep the equipment I refer to all the time at the rear of my workbench, which includes a scope, stacked bench top DMM/signal generator/frequency counter next to it, and a DC power supply next to that, where it's all at eye-level. I have two portable DMMs where I can easily grab one or both and put it on my workbench when I need multiple simultaneous readings. Any lesser used equipment is on shelves, and I can either use it there, with the need to look up, or if the equipment will be used a lot, I'll bring it down to my workbench.I agree about the portable displays not being as readable as a bench top DMM, and also that they don't fit was well into my workflow. Perhaps it's just what I'm used to though. In my former job, everyone had portable DMMs but they were very crappy/cheap units with extremely limited precision, only for getting basic measurements. Anyone needing precise measurements had an Agilent/HP bench top DMM, along with matching PSU, signal generator, frequency counter, etc., which we stacked next to what we were working on, along with a scope next to it. For me, that's what made sense, so I tried to duplicate that on my home workbench.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 07:04:08 am
content: Quote from: Neper on August 27, 2021, 05:48:58 pmThere may be less knobs and parts etc, but the precision of the parts required on higher end bench meter is much greater, so they can cost more. At least for things like the reference and custom hybrid resistor divider arrays.And then you have market forces. Everyone needs a scope and handheld DMM, but not everyone needs a precison bench DMM, therefore sales volumes would be lower, less agressive competition for that market space etc.

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 09:17:26 am
content: We mainly Lecroy 12 bot scopes for a of tigh focus power supply work, however a quality bench DMM is very useful and in fairess more accuarate, currently have three bench DMM's a DM6500 for general work, a DMM7510 for the really tight stuff a Keithley 2002. ow the Lecrfoys have a gain accuarcy of 0.5% which is pretty decent for a scope and at soldered board level work with an RP4030 its damn fine. For those situation that require more in focus (low uA/uA ranges and below) then a quality bench DMM is essential. These meters are 28 bit adc's & above hardware and are three orders of magnitute greater in measurment accuracy capability.Most hobbists will never need to go to this degree of precise ability so not really an issue (unless a well heeled analy retentive person with plenty of funds and time on their hands).The bottom line is that a sub £1K 8 bit scope isn't the ideal ideal method of securing those cricital results need, but its a respectable method of geting near. A good hand held DMM can be more accurate and I personally would consider essential for any person intrested in EE hobbist or other wise. pretty sure Dave has around half a dozen or so. Personally I have three and they are used daily.

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 09:19:08 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 05, 2021, 10:28:53 pmQuote from: 2N3055 on September 05, 2021, 10:45:37 pmMe too :-)But I'm curious, what do you think, which high end Handheld Multimeter would "compete" with a e.g. Keithley DMM6500? Besides the missing 4W Kelvin Measurement?Gossen? Fluke? Brymen? others? Suggestions are very Wellcome!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 10:16:56 am
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on September 06, 2021, 09:19:08 amThere is only benchtop class handheld meter, the Gossen 30m

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 10:29:51 am
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on September 06, 2021, 09:19:08 amWell it depends. Basically none of them can "compete".Benchtops usually have more that permanent power supply and better accuracy.They have good connectivity, built in math, support for sensor measurements, triggering etc...On Rigol DM3068 you can define custom sensors and measure that. You have histograms etc etc.Most others have same.On DMM6500 you have built in programming language. That is very powerful. It is not completely stable though.. Mostly is.Of all my handhelds the closest one to these advanced functions is (as you probably already guessed :-) is MTX3293.It has SCPI connectivity and many advanced features. Since I got that one, I switch on my DM3068 much less often than before. Actually, rarely, unless something specific is needed.One specific measurement that requires benchtop meter is any measurement that needs triggering for instance.Either meter triggering from a slope, or external trigger. Or set meter to measure voltage for 1 second after 500msec delay after it went above 12V... No handheld has these kinds of functions.Also many benchtops support GO/NOGO measurements, with logic output you can connect to giant red light..So benchtops are really different type of instrument.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 10:54:08 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 06, 2021, 10:16:56 am...and even that isn'trealllybenchtop class. [Edit:No 4 wire Ohms measurementthat's clever], no >10Gig input resistance up to 20V etc. It does have a lot of digits though!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 11:07:44 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 05, 2021, 07:14:33 pmI totally understand (and agree with) all of that. I was just expressing my theory as towhyso few <5.5 digit bench meters are available today.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 12:03:12 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 06, 2021, 10:16:56 amDoes it have a temperature-controlled voltage reference?If that's not a requisite then the Hioki DT4282 would be another contender.

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 03:25:18 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 06, 2021, 10:16:56 amIs it still available, I thought it is EOL? okay have to check.Quote from: 2N3055 on September 06, 2021, 10:29:51 amYes of course its a great device! But Sometimes I think there is no progress in handheld DMM development? It should be possible today to manufacture handheld units with even moreprecision and more feature to better compete with bigger Benchtop units - or lets say to replace them in some kind of scenario were users don't want a bigger bench top unit?!There are many "High End" lets say 850€++ units out there, Metrix, Gossen, Fluke etc.But those models are more than 5 years old. So why isn't there coming something new? Of course not every year but e.g. Fluke 289 hasn't been updated for many years.The new CA Version of the Metrix has IMHO just some minor improvements etc.So when is the next big step in High End handheld Multimeter coming?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 03:49:41 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on September 06, 2021, 03:25:18 pmNeither has the Fluke 87V.Apparently nobody wants "upgrades", it would cost the industry a fortune in retraining people and rewriting all the procedures.Quote from: Markus2801A on September 06, 2021, 03:25:18 pmWhat would you add?There's not really any point in adding digits without temperature control and a heated voltage reference would take time to warm up and use a lot of batteries. People don't want that in handhelds.Apart from that, what features are missing these days? My main peeve with many meters is too many functions on each switch position so you're constantly pressing "select" every time you turn the dial.If I could request one feature it would be a DC power jack so you could plug it in and leave it on all day on the bench with the backlight enabled. People have claimed it would make the meter unsafe but I'm not sure I'm buying that - a power socket can be electrically isolatedandbe behind a sliding door (for example).

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 04:03:03 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 06, 2021, 03:49:41 pmA safe external power supply would need to an extra isolated DC/DC stage, good for the worst case voltage. This may work OP for 300 V CAT 2 meter, but it gets hard with a 1000 V CAT3. The standard DCDC converter are not that good, and they tend to be noisy.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 04:15:49 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 06, 2021, 03:49:41 pmWell they could improve the contrast and overall visibility on the 289 without causing any complaint. As for features, can't imagine adding any features to it as it already has so many the menus are 3 layers deep.QuoteMy old scopemeter has an external supply and meets CAT III/600V, but that is a very expensive and complex solution that probably adds $100 or so to the cost of the instrument. A plug-in, hard-wired power supply is going to be problematic as you need a lot of isolation somewhere and you probably don't want an SMPS inside your DMM. The only cost-effective, safe way I can think of doing this is some sort of Qi-like wireless power mat (or perhaps just Qi itself since the charging mats are out there) and I'm not sure you want that on your bench when you are measuring stuff. Or maybe it works fine and doesn't interfere with anything not right on top of it. Perhaps Aneng will come out with it first!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 04:49:13 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on September 06, 2021, 04:03:03 pmI'm sure a suitably expensive wall-wart can be be made for rhe people who work with CAT3 1000V on their workbench.(...are there any?)Away from the bench? Close the little DC input door and use the battery.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 04:53:00 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 06, 2021, 04:15:49 pmA Qi-like power supply that attaches to the meter with a magnet? Sounds good to me...(Maybe the meter could increase the internal clock speed and auto-range really fast, too.)

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 05:00:26 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 06, 2021, 03:49:41 pmYes you're absolutely right, heated voltage reference etc. would be a no go for portable meters.I would update the displays of all high end Multimeters to high resolution with excellent contrast etc.! It should be possible because so many cellphones have superior displays. So why don't add a higher resolution color display to the high end DMM`s?Also, yes, usability. Progress development in Menu structure GUI etc.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 05:03:10 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 06, 2021, 04:53:00 pmUmmm....there's a small problem with that setup...

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 05:06:12 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on September 06, 2021, 05:00:26 pmThe problem with that is power consumption, a mobile phone do not last 300+ hours on a few AA/AAA batteries, but a multimeter with a simple LCD display do.I checked many of the high-end meters here:https://lygte-info.dk/info/DMMHigh-end%20UK.htmland some of them do have graphical display.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 05:14:51 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on September 06, 2021, 05:00:26 pmSimple: Battery life.Cellphones have 3500mAh+ batteries and last less than a day if you use them constantly. I wouldn't want that in a multimeter.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 05:17:35 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 06, 2021, 05:03:10 pmIt's just this:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001171058433.html

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 06:38:52 pm
content: but I think cellphones do have more energy demand because of their OS and things they do like GPS, internet etc.that wouldn't be the Case in a Multimeter. Also Apple proved it is possible to create RISC with very low energy demand.So if they engineer it correctly it should be possible to last more than a day :-)

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 06:42:08 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on September 06, 2021, 06:38:52 pmUNI-T181 will probably last more than a day (I have not checked) and has a good graphical display and like phones it use a special LiIon battery.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 06:44:56 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 06, 2021, 05:17:35 pmThat's all good. It's the magnet that's going to be the issue....

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 10:04:26 pm
content: Quote from: HKJ on September 06, 2021, 06:42:08 pmUNI-T-181 cannot be used while charging and battery cannot be charged outside meter and exchanged easily with a second charged one.Metrix MTX 3293 has better battery life, it uses AA cells so can be run from primary cells and NiMh too, you can charge secondary set of NiMH batteries in external charger and simply exchange it, or you can run meter plugged in.Metrix is actually example how it should be done...Otherwise, UNI-T-181 is measurements wise, and usability wise very nice instrument. Apart from Joe damaging it easily with piezo sparker, which might or not be an issue, quite capable meter.

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 05:03:17 am
content: Regarding Metrahit 30M: it has been discontinuedRS and other seller pointing to other Metrahit Series as "alternatives"But spec wise there seems no alternative for this 1,200,000 digit display range handheld Multimeter ;-)Why did Gossen not continue?

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 05:30:40 am
content: There was probably not enough demand for such a high resolution handheld meter.I don't think the last digit would be really stable between 1 min after turn on and fully warmed up (1 hour). So the resolution is of limited value.The benchtop 6 digit meters nearly all use a ovenized reference. This is not really practical in the cramped space.With the compact form the temperature rise is also larger than with a more spread out bench meter.6 digits are mainly a thing if the result is not read by eye, but directly send to a computer / memory.The important parts are often more the ability to resolve small voltages, not the number of digits. With modern SD ADCs the number of digits as pure resolution is not a good measure of the quality.

author: AaronLee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 06:23:49 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on September 07, 2021, 05:30:40 amI've never looked at benchtop DMM teardowns, but from what little I know, at least some of them use a fan. Trying to use a fan in a portable DMM would likely be silly, due to size constraints and a larger draw on the battery. Also, for a non-battery powered device, and where a fan can be added to the design if necessary, there's no limit for the designer in choosing exactly the components necessary to get that increased accuracy, even if they're power hungry and generate a lot of heat.Quote from: EEVblog on September 06, 2021, 07:04:08 amFor me personally, if I was extremely limited in what items I could have for my workbench, I'd of course need a power supply, followed by a scope and then a high precision benchtop DMM. Sure, for basic measurements I could use either a handheld or a benchtop, but for my use I have no need for the portability of a handheld. ALL my measurements are done on my workbench, and some require the high accuracy not typically found in handhelds.Of course I realize I'm probably not in the norm, as so many members here do seem to think that a portable DMM is a necessity. Now if I needed a DMM for checking the house wiring, fixing appliances or other items that aren't practical to move onto or next to my workbench, then the workbench DMM would be impractical and a portable DMM would be necessary.Anyways, I agree there's a much larger market for portable DMMs, but I disagree that everyone needs a handheld DMM. Rather most need, or at least prefer to have a handheld as their only DMM, if limited to only one.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 06:40:11 am
content: Quote from: HKJ on September 06, 2021, 06:42:08 pmProblem: I want it to last six months to a year. I don't want to be worrying about the battery every time I switch it on.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 06:48:36 am
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on September 06, 2021, 06:38:52 pmThere are some multimeters that have OLED graphical screens. Me? I'd never buy one. They're mostly showing a single number, there's no reason an LCD can't do that....which leads us to another topic, why aren't LCDs on high-end meters as crisp/contrasty as the freebie DT830Bs?(Yes, they have more segments so more multiplexing but that's not mandatory, it can be improved)

author: AaronLee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 06:57:49 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 07, 2021, 06:48:36 amAre you referring to portable DMMs or all (portable and benchtop) DMMs? For benchtop DMMs, having a graphical touchscreen (OLED, graphical LCD, or whatever) which allows for various menus with nice descriptions/information about what you're doing I find to be very important. For a portable DMM, I've never had one with an OLED, nor would care for one unless it made the display easier to read.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 06:59:07 am
content: Right now I'll settle for a meter with intelligent, zero-drama auto-power-off (ie. no "beep, beep, beep" warning!!) and that wakes up exactly where it was at the press of a button.eg. my Brymen BM857.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 07:01:54 am
content: Quote from: AaronLee on September 07, 2021, 06:57:49 amBattery powered DMMs.If it's plugged in then obviously you can have a big touch screen, etc., no problem.I'd still insist on LCD though, not OLED. I want my equipment to last.

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 09:23:00 am
content: My scope (R&S, close to 5000 euro) was more expensive then my Bench DMMs (a few Keithleys) I have some experience with budget scopes and DMMs and they all were not very good so I stick to the more serious brands. But I use them professionally. But before that I already switched to good brands. The problem is that a B grade scope (200 euro) is as good as a 200 benchmeter, both are crapBench meter were long only targeted at prof use. Like prof scopes, prof DMMs are expensive (my most used handheld DMMs were between 200 and 800 euros, my benchmeters 800 to 4500 euro) But now there are loads of ultra cheap hobby scopes, you can not compare them to serious benchmeters and you already experienced they do not come close to a Fluke, Keysight or Keithley. The reason most hobby users are fine using a cheap hobbyscope is the type of use. Rather simple ans most scopes will do. However if you have to do complex critical measurements using special triggering, fast signals etc the hobby scope will not do. I once did some reverse recovery measurements on diodes and my Rigol 100 MHz scope showed very wrong signals. My R&S was correct. Good probes cost more as cheap scopes incl probes.But a bench DMM is not complex to use and many users use all functions. If the the UI is crap almost every user will not like it, while for the scope they do not notice that, because they only use auto and maybe some simple triggering, so all other functions can be as crap as possible (in performance and/or UI) and most people do not notices that. That is why it seems like bench DMMs are more expensive as scopes.

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 10:48:33 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on September 07, 2021, 05:30:40 amI think this is most probably the case why it has been discontinued.A question to all: Are the high end (high priced approx 850€ and more) Gossen Multimeters worth the money?Would say they have a good reputation but there is also this annoying magnetic and static field issue, described in thisby Joe smith - dunno if there are any newer revision of this Gossen Series were those issues already have been fixed?So in other words: what speaks out for Gossen their pros and cons, or Fluke or other brands, besides their brand names?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 12:57:39 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on September 07, 2021, 05:30:40 amThis raises the question of why multimeters can't have an internal temperature sensor and be calibrated across a range of different temperatures.The calibration would take a few hours but I'm sure it could be automated so it's no big deal on a production line.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 01:08:16 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on September 07, 2021, 10:48:33 amWith Brymen around? No.Quote from: Markus2801A on September 07, 2021, 10:48:33 amFlukes work, people are used to buying Flukes, people know what they're getting for their money when they buy one. At a professional level people aren't interested in shopping around or taking a chance on a different brand just to save $200 on something that's going to last for many years (hopefully!)Gossen aren't massive outside Germany but I imagine the same reasoning applies there.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 03:07:06 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 07, 2021, 01:08:16 pmAgree, we've got a Fluke 87 that's probably 30~35 years old. It's still working and has never been calibrated and still compares well to our KS34465A!It's my goto handheld DMM, and has been as long as I can rememberBest,

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 04:01:02 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 07, 2021, 03:07:06 pmThe downside of this is that Fluke can never innovate or make another new meter. They'll still be making the 87V a thousand years from now.(and it will still default to AC in current mode)

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 04:09:37 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 07, 2021, 04:01:02 pmSeems likeFluke does offer many other meters.Andthe 233with detachable display looks like a really cool thing.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 04:48:11 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on September 07, 2021, 04:09:37 pmOh, sure, they make lots of meters... but nothing that's cheaper than the 87V would work on an EE workbench. They're all missing some essential feature or other (usually uA or TRMS).

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 08:15:18 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on September 07, 2021, 04:09:37 pmSeems gossen has the same "problem", they seem to only renamed their series. But nothing new has evolved since many years, isn't this strange?Nothing new since almost a decade no innovation no new design better operating/usability/display etc.? Am I wrong or do these companies hold on too hard on their success resulting in maybe getting overruled by the good and cheaper "asian" alternatives (like Brymen)?Look at whts happened to Nokia, could something also happen tho them?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 09:14:08 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on September 07, 2021, 08:15:18 pmI think the handheld DMM is what you would call a 'mature technology'. A lot of what passes for 'innovation' is just very incremental and sometimes dubious 'improvements'. I think that there are 10X as many actual Fluke customers that would want to bring back a discontinued model (like the 187/189) over coming out with a new one. Often companies with products like these will build them unchanged as long as they can because that is what their customers want--and when they do discontinue them, it is because some part of their supply chain has simply become unavailable.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 03:55:45 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 07, 2021, 04:01:02 pmIt hasn't always, the 87-III defaults to DC, they ruined the 87 with the V by switching the default to AC. It's absolutely obnoxious and the main reason I would not ever buy a 87V. I almost never measure AC current by inserting the meter in the circuit, I use my current clamp. They could make a 87-VI easily enough that offers the classic 87 features and form factor with a selectable default or last setting memory. If they did it's the meter I'd recommend everyone looking for a meter take a look at. My 87-III is the best meter I've ever owned.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 04:00:35 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 07, 2021, 04:48:11 pmThere's no reason for them to make anything cheaper, various Asian brands already own the market for cheap meters, Fluke is known for high quality professional products and by chasing the cheap market they would only degrade their name. Besides, it's not like the 87 costs thousands of dollars, it isn't cheap, but it isn't outlandishly expensive. People regularly spend significantly more on the latest smartphone every year or two.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 08:48:52 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 08, 2021, 04:00:35 amThe point is that Fluke is clearly in the market to maximize profits, not to provide anybody with the best possible multimeter.This is where everybody says "Well, duh! They're a business!" but that's not the point being made. The point is that the 87V isn't perfect, It could easily be improved in a few places.Fluke could also offer two or three alternative models to choose from while keeping the 87V as-is for all the corporate customers and die-hard 87V fans.They never will though. Innovation is dead at the Fluke multimeter division. It died with the 87IV.Quote from: bdunham7 on September 07, 2021, 09:14:08 pmYep.Quote from: james_s on September 08, 2021, 03:55:45 amMe, too.(Also: I've heard of Brymen and I can get two or three BM857s for the price of an 87V)

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 02:27:05 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 08, 2021, 08:48:52 amSo you want to be the product manager that messes with a successful formula?http://transparency.coca-cola.ro/stories/coke-lore-new-coke/QuoteDoes Brymen sell these products?https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-279-fchttps://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-233https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-v3000-fchttps://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/basic-testers/fluke-prv240fs-proving-unit

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 03:10:13 pm
content: From everything people say, Brymen makes solid products. But they won’t be able to command Fluke prices until they’ve been on the market for 20-30 years: part of what you’re paying for in a Fluke is the knowledge that a Fluke meter will still be accurate after decades. (No need to bring up the handful of Fluke products that have conked out too young. They exist but are not representative.)It is so silly that the same people keep making the same tired arguments against Fluke pricing. If you’re price sensitive, then don’t buy one. You’re not their target market. (Heck, as electronics people, we are not their target market to begin with.) Fluke’s target markets are electricians (especially industrial), where safety is more important than cost. Fluke isn’t cheap (but neither are they that expensive in absolute numbers), but they have the reputation that safety-sensitive customers care about a lot.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 03:37:49 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 08, 2021, 02:27:05 pmThe "V" in the name indicates that they've done it before.Would (eg.) Bluetooth viewing+data logging affect their formula or sales?Quote from: bdunham7 on September 08, 2021, 02:27:05 pmOK, it might affect sales ofthatmeter. It would probably a gain for Fluke though as it simplifies production and distribution logistics to have one less model in the lineup.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 03:51:45 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 07, 2021, 04:48:11 pmThen if you need the features offered only by the 87V, then you pay for the 87V. If the other, less expensive meters meet your needs, you buy a different meter.In other words, the 87V costs more because it has all of the features. Other meters cost less because they have fewer features.I don't see the problem.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 04:30:46 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on September 08, 2021, 03:51:45 pmIt's not the logic of the lineup, it's the stagnation of it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 04:41:06 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 08, 2021, 03:10:13 pmI'm not their target market but it's not because of price, it's because they don't offer much bang per buck compared to other meters.Why would I buy a Fluke 87V when I can buy two or three equivalent/better meters for the same money? (eg. aBM857s)

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 06:02:24 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 08, 2021, 08:48:52 amWell, here in the US the 87V would be less than double all-in, you get the low-pass VFD filter and a good warranty, vs essentially no warranty for Brymen. YMMV depending on where you are. But I don't think Fluke is concerned--they seem to be selling everything they make, as they're out of stock on the 87V at the moment.https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-87vQuoteFluke seems to sell stuff targeted for a particular use. How well they do that it debatable, but from what I see, Brymen is the one with a frighteningly large selection of very similar DMMs. It appears to be that way because they sell and OEM under different brands and they need to differentiate them somehow. Take the EEVBlog BM786 vs the BM789, for example. Or look at any of their series of meters. They must have over three dozen models of just plain handheld DMMs with varying sets of standard features. Fluke, OTOH, shows 22 models here and that includes one with a thermal camera, one with a remote display, two average-responding units for specific applications, an ATEX-certified model, an automotive-specific model, a wireless remote hub model and a couple of weirdos (87V MAX, 113).https://www.fluke.com/en-us/products/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 07:26:56 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 08, 2021, 04:41:06 pmThat comment literally makesno sense. A “target market” is thedefinitionof who you are designing your product for. Their target market for the Fluke 87V is industrial electricians for whom safety is paramount, so the feature set and pricing reflects that. How YOU perceive bang for buck is irrelevant to them, since you’re not an industrial electrician (AFAIK).Quote from: Fungus on September 08, 2021, 04:41:06 pmLiterally spelled out for you in the remainder of my comment, the part you didn’t quote.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 07:33:25 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 08, 2021, 04:41:06 pmWell I bought one, and if something happened to it I'd buy another one, the Fluke 87-III offers all the bang for the buck I need. It's a rock solid reliable practically bulletproof industrial grade meter. It does everything I need a meter to do, it feels nice in my hand, and I trust it to work when I need it to work. I don't need 2 or 3 meters and I would argue that those cheaper meters are not equivalent. "Better" is subjective, I've used plenty of good meters but so far none that I'd trade my Fluke for. The only thing really lacking from the 87-III is the diode test beep, the 87-V brings that back but screwed up the current range by making it default to AC. If they fixed that it would be perfect.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 07:44:37 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 08, 2021, 04:30:46 pmStagnation of the lineup isn't a but, it's a feature.Their target market is people like me, who want to be able to buy a replacement for the tool we know and are familiar with 10, 20 or however many years into the future, we don't want it changed just for the sake of change, or have new features added we don't need. A DMM is a tool, and it's a very mature product at this point. Do you complain that the hammer offerings are stagnant? Do you want to see new and updated crowbars and screwdrivers on a regular basis? Has the socket wrench market gone stale? These are all mature tools, they have been refined to perfection over decades and there is nothing to gain and a lot to lose by continuing to muck with them and change what works. If you want flashy new features and see value in that then buy something that offers what you want. If you still don't understand why someone would want "tried and true" you probably never will.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 07:49:23 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 08, 2021, 03:37:49 pmIt would definitely make me less likely to buy one. I have zero use for bluetooth logging in a meter, it is a consumer toy and would be a pointless gimmick that would add unnecessary cost and battery drain, likely requiring a fundamental redesign of the meter, and who knows what compromises it might bring. There are other products out there already offering such gimmicks, Fluke has obviously decided that their target customers don't see value in features like that or they would offer it.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 09:18:13 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 08, 2021, 04:30:46 pmthen clearly there is space in that market for you to swoop in and design a "better 87" and make a zillion dollars.

author: AaronLee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 12:23:49 am
content: Quote from: tooki on September 08, 2021, 03:10:13 pmThat's spot on, in my estimation. I don't quite understand the attraction that electronics engineers have towards Fluke, other than they're very well trusted and you know what you're getting. I'm sure there are some electronics engineers who do need the safety/physical durability that they're famous for, but far and away most of us don't need that, and thus don't need to be paying for it. On the other hand, if you don't want to waste time searching for a different brand that'll be comparable, or take any chances, just pay extra for a Fluke. Don't, though, be tempted to buy one just because everyone else is. I was in that position many years ago and bought and expensive Fluke for my personal electronics work. A friend semi-permanently borrowed it many years ago, and to tell you the truth, I'm not missing it. My Brymen works just as well, and my benchtop DMM much better.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 02:55:23 am
content: Quote from: AaronLee on September 09, 2021, 12:23:49 amThey're also (generally) very well built and well-engineered.Frankly, given the target audience (electricians) of most Fluke meters, I suspect that Fluke actually made the right call in having voltage default to AC on the 87V.QuoteWhile that's true, durability and longevity tend to be at least somewhat related. A Fluke is something you can basically count on to last more or less forever, so you have to buy it only once.I'm pretty sure there are other meters (Brymen) for which that's likely the case, but with Fluke youknowthat's the case.QuoteIf I were advising someone on bench equipment, I'd end up recommending a cheap handheld meter to start with, and if they stick with the hobby then I'd advise going directly to a benchtop meter from there, over something like a Fluke. The handheld can be used when the situation calls for it (it's handy to be able to take the meter to where the problem is), but a good bench meter ismuchnicer to use.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 03:42:28 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 09, 2021, 02:55:23 amThe excellent engineering is a significant appeal to me, and the fact that they're built to be serviced and they are supported for a long time.I know a number of professional electricians and I end up doing a fair amount of that sort of work myself. It's very rare to interrupt a circuit and insert the meter to measure current, I certainly wouldn't try it in most cases. A current clamp is the proper method and that uses the voltage input on the meter.That's kind of beside the point though. There's no reason for it to default to anything every time the current range is selected, it should stay set to whatever it was last set to. It should store it when power is off ideally but even just retaining the setting while the meter is on would be vastly better than the way it works now. I hope I can find a nice 87-III if something ever happens to the one I have.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 03:43:07 am
content: Quote from: tooki on September 08, 2021, 07:26:56 pmThe feature set of the 87V doesn't scream "Electrican" to me. It doesn't even have non-contact voltage or lo-Z.Industrial electricians probably shouldn't be measuring currrent inline, either. That's what clamps are for.If I were an electrician I'd probably be looking at a different model, eg, the 113, or one ofthese.If I was splashing out I'd probably go for a 117.Quote from: tooki on September 08, 2021, 07:26:56 pmIn that case you'd think they'd be interested in a CAT IV1000Vmeter, but Fluke doesn't make any of those.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 03:47:41 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 08, 2021, 07:49:23 pmWhy should it drain the battery if you're not using it? It can just power-down that part of the circuit.Quote from: james_s on September 08, 2021, 07:49:23 pmThey made a meter with detachable screen instead...?

author: AaronLee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 04:01:05 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 09, 2021, 03:42:28 amMany years ago when I bought a Fluke, I was thinking, "Oh, I need this for my electronics work, and someday maybe I can use it for some electrician type work." But the thing is, I'm not a trained electrician, and know just enough to be dangerous. Getting a Fluke, because of it's safety features, and then trying to use it when I'm not trained in such type of work is a recipe for disaster. Instead, if ever I have a job needing an electrician's skill, I'll call an electrician to do it. For those doing electronics and who are trained enough to do an electrician's work as well, and have a need to do that type of work, I guess the Fluke would be a good choice.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 04:21:15 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 03:47:41 amWell if it's not being used then yeah I suppose it could be powered down, but it's still probably going to require a complete redesign of the meter, you can't just tack on bluetooth and expect that to work. They'd be extremely foolish to redesign a winning formula to add a feature that most of their customers don't want. Would you buy a Fluke if they made one that added a bluetooth interface? I doubt it, someone else already owns that niche.The detachable screen makes a lot more sense for a professional setting. Maybe you don't quite grasp the sort of environments this stuff gets used in, a smartphone is not nearly rugged enough, the meters are designed to survive being dropped off of ladders onto concrete, dropped into manufacturing machines, exposed to vibration, oil and grease, and other rough treatment. They also are expected to last many many hours on a battery. My smartphone can rarely make it through a whole day without being recharged and I'm not trying to use it for my job. I don't personally need a detachable screen but if I did want to read my meter from a remote location that's the solution I'd go with vs using a phone. A dedicated device that is always paired together strikes me as superior, I can see it being useful for someone who spends a lot of time working on machine tools, usually the control cabinet is around back and you can't reach the control panel and see a meter inside the cabinet from the same place.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 05:43:36 am
content: Quote from: AaronLee on September 09, 2021, 12:23:49 amFluke can provide that same safety/durability in a $100 meter.eg.https://www.fluke.com/en-in/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-15b-plus

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 06:06:14 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 09, 2021, 03:42:28 amI can buy a complete kit of parts for my Brymen,includingreplacement PCB for about $160.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 06:22:31 am
content: Fungus, can youpleasejust let it go? Is itreallynecessary for you to derailyet anotherthread with your anti-Fluke crusade? You don’t like it? Don’t buy one. But stop pissing in everyone else’s Cheerios!!

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 06:37:31 am
content: Sometimes I think those Bluetooth and App Connectivity which has been added into home appliances also like vacuum cleaners, dish washers etc. seems to bee a marketing feature which IMHO as far as also I have some devices which offers those abilities, is not really a gain of usability etc in the most cases.They SELL it as feature but in most cases it doesn't really make any sense in practical use I thinkSo in a Multimeter additional features like bluetooth (paired with an app on smartphone etc) can make sense, but it really has to be well designed and thanked over and over again before they implement it.In a bench top, I would go for a LAN and good WebInterface.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 07:15:01 am
content: Quote from: tooki on September 09, 2021, 06:22:31 amI agree..And several other people should stop being "Jehovah's Witnesses of Fluke second coming " on the same token.. That is ALSO off the topic... I think poor Fluke Corp will survive Fungus even without crusaders...Brymen is great, Fluke is glorious..Not a topic.. Brymen doesn't even make benchtops or scopes.Flukedoesmakes scopes and benchtop meters, and interestingly enough, Fluke's scopes are not cheaper than benchtop meter. Except 8.5 digit meter and calibrators that I think are not point of this discussion.OTOH Bluetooth in a meter is either something you don't need or could be useful. It provides galvanic isolation at a distance.. I don't own any meters that have it though. I don't have a use for it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 11:11:35 am
content: Quote from: tooki on September 09, 2021, 06:22:31 amNo, no... you've got it all wrong. I'm not Anti-Fluke. Fluke make some fine meters, I even own a few, including a 50,000 count, dual display Fluke 87-IV.What I don't get is the deification of a meter that's obviously very overpriced and whose only design criteria is to milk money from corporate/government accounts and is holding back Fluke from producing anything better.It just doesn't seemthatspecial.

author: AaronLee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 11:45:26 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 11:11:35 amI don't think you can blame Fluke for making products/pricing that milks money from those accounts. If just about anyone was in charge of the company, they'd do the same. Tektronix and Keysight do the same thing with their products targeting corporate/government accounts. The only thing is the typical equipment Tektronix and Keysight sell are thousands of dollars, tens of thousands of dollars, or more. Versus a portable multimeter for let's say $500, isn't in the same ballpark cost wise.You also have to realize the "penny-wise, pound-foolish" point can be an issue. Whether you're a hobbyist or a professional, your time is valuable. If you end up wasting days just researching which multimeter to buy as an alternative to a Fluke, you might end up spending way more for the alternative, when you consider the value of your time. If you save $100, but waste $300 worth of your time in doing so, then you're not being very wise.I'm not trying to defend Fluke's practices, but on the other hand I can't say they're wrong either. And while a Fluke meter isn't for me, I totally understand that for some it is the right choice.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 12:10:33 pm
content: Quote from: AaronLee on September 09, 2021, 11:45:26 amNope, but normally manufacturers who do that are ridiculed.eg. Not many people around here would go out of their way to spend double money to own a Tek oscilloscope. Even Keysights are regarded as extravagant.Quote from: AaronLee on September 09, 2021, 11:45:26 amPerspective: For the price of the 87V I can get a more capable Brymen meter plus a Hakko soldering iron and still have money left over.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 01:44:22 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on September 07, 2021, 05:03:17 amMore then a million digits for DMM?And I thought that 8 1/2 digits was already impressive.But after I saw how gossen treated Joey Q I don't even look at that brand with my neck hairs.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 02:22:33 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 12:10:33 pm*cough*Apple*cough*

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 02:51:23 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 09, 2021, 02:22:33 pmI dunno, my wife just got a new M1 MacBook Air that cost less and performs better than the Dell laptops her employer is buying for people who prefer Windows machines.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 02:59:17 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 11:11:35 amIt's not deification. (disclosure: I have owned a Fluke 179 for 20 years. It still works like a champ, no complaints.) It's just recognition that the Fluke 87 is one of those "golden egg" products that every company wishes they could have in their line. Yes, indeed, it's a license to print money.But here's the thing, Fungus: You're (apparently) an engineer. Wouldn't you LOVE to be able to design a product like the 87, one that sells like hotcakes even though it is "expensive" and as such makes boatloads of money for your employer? You know, the kind of money that keeps a business going though thick and thin, and enables development of other products (really, Fluke's product line is actually quite broad), and, hell, enables them to buy Tektronix?Or are you a hobbyist who likes to bitch and moan?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 04:31:21 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on September 09, 2021, 02:51:23 pmSure, youcanpay a fortune for windows machines if you want to. The entry level is much lower though.Quote from: Bassman59 on September 09, 2021, 02:59:17 pmIt sort of is.Question: If you were looking for a "better" meter than the Fluke 87V then what meter would you get?(nb. A meter that you would actually want to own. The Fluke 289 doesn't count - who wants to own a complex meter that takes ages to "boot up"?)Quote from: Bassman59 on September 09, 2021, 02:59:17 pmIf I had shares in the company, then sure. In practice: Did the designers even get a raise? Pride alone won't get me a new car.As an "engineer" I might be annoyed if my boss told me I wasn't allowed to try and improve it for the next generation or even try to design another model that was even better.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 04:40:47 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on September 09, 2021, 02:59:17 pmWell, a big part of the success of Fluke multimeters is salespeople throwing them into the room. Literally. The shock effect and stories still echo in engineering departments up to the point that competitors have Youtubers like Dave make videos to show their product is rugged too in present day. The downside is that sales are not driven so much by innovation but mostly by momentum. A younger generation of engineers is less impressed and likely more interested in price. Fluke seems to be aware though and sells low cost versions in certain markets.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 04:58:47 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 04:31:21 pmWell, "better" in what way? For general features, the 289 seems fine to me, the boot time is less than it takes me to find the right leads and it does most everything you could ask a handheld DMM to do. A lot of people probably would want the 189 back--as I said the most requested 'improvement' from actual customers would probably be a discontinued model. Outside the US I'd probably look at Metrix/Chauvin Arnoux. But again, what is 'better'? Suppose I want a 10 year minimum warranty?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 05:24:45 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 11:11:35 amThough I disagree with your opinion, it’s not your opinionas suchthat I take issue with. I take issue with you jumping on a soapbox about this issue at every opportunity, derailing discussions about other topics to express your opinion about Fluke. It’s not the “what” that bothers me, it’s the “when” and “where”. It doesn’t need to be everywhere, all the time.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 05:31:44 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 09, 2021, 02:22:33 pmGesundheit! Here’s a tissue.Anyhow, people ridicule Apple for having “high” prices and “style over substance”. What they ignore is that while Apple mostly chooses to not participate in the low end market at all, their prices in the midrange and high end markets are generally competitive. They absolutely have style, but they do have the substance to back it up.The M1 is a game changer: it’s their entry level computer CPU and wipes the floor with most midrange computers while only sipping homeopathic amounts of electricity. It’s a tremendous technological tour de force.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 05:58:03 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 09, 2021, 04:58:47 pmExactly my point: Fluke isn't making the meters that people really want, they're making the meter (singular) that feeds the shareholders.I don't have a problem with the 98V as a meter, I have a problem with what it represents and the effect it has on the market.Quote from: bdunham7 on September 09, 2021, 04:58:47 pmI'll do that for you, no problem, but why would you want to pay through the nose for such a "feature"? Do you also buy$435 hammers and $640 toilet seats?My Brymen has a 3 year warranty, I've seen Joe's Brymen-torturing videos. I figure if it my meter goes for three years without any problems then it's going to outlast me.If it doesn't? A complete kit of replacement parts (including a case, a screen, a PCBanda set of fuses and leads) costs about $165.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 06:01:03 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 09, 2021, 05:24:45 pmHuh? How many threads have I ever mentioned this in?This was a thread specifically about how testgear prices are justified by their manufacturers and the topic came up.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 06:04:46 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 09, 2021, 05:31:44 pmThat is if they actually offer the feature(s) that one wants. Unfortunately, they have chosen to forgo offering the things I insist on all to comply with their style directives and 'vision'.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 06:15:35 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 04:31:21 pmYou can pay $500 for a Windows toy you'll throw away in a year, or $250 for a Chromebook, or you can pay $899 for the M1 MacBook Air and enjoy much better performance than the $899 Windows laptops.I realize you're anti-Apple but clearly you don't know anything about their products. But that doesn't stop you from making ridiculous statements about them!QuoteI told you in my post. I have a Fluke 179. Is it "better" than the 87? As my sophomore professor of physics would say, "DON'T KNOW! DON'T CARE!" The 179 meets my needs, and has done so for a long time.On the bench at work I have a Fluke 175. It was bought prior to my arrival. It does what I need it to do.The production people have a calibrated 6 1/2 voltmeter for some particular use. It was bought for that use. Someone researched it and bought it.QuoteWho knows? Maybe they did. Maybe they're now the managers.QuoteDo you tell your boss what products the company should be designing or putting into production, or does your boss tell you what to design and put into production? This is why I think you're a hobbyist.What if Fluke has already asked their customers what they like and don't like about the 87 and the consensus was "it's fine as it is?" What if instead of changing the 87 they put whatever features customers suggested into new products? You know, like logging in the 287, or the detachable face in the 233 or whatever?Maybe the Fluke measurement-tools division has decided that its engineers are better utilized designing products in new areas? Again, the Fluke product line is more than just handheld meters.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 06:16:18 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 09, 2021, 06:04:46 pmOn what do you insist? Be specific.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 06:22:11 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 05:58:03 pmAs has been said repeatedly, the situation is significantly different in the US for both pricing and warranty.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 06:28:29 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 09, 2021, 05:31:44 pm(I'll risk a single post on this off-topic subject...)Apple only works if you fit their customer profile. If you want to run "interesting" software or open it up to add RAM or change the disk then you're SOL.Plus: Most of the people who don't need to run any "interesting" software are probably better off with a Chromebook. Chromebooks run ARM processors have very long battery, generally better software than MacOS (all the google stuff for mail/productivity), and are pretty much maintenance and hassle free (it's all web/cloud based).PS: If it's just the "style" you want then you can get a Windows laptop with Macbook look/feel for quarter of the price of a Macbook these days. Put a big colorful sticker on the lid where the Apple logo usually goes and nobody will ever know, they'll just think you're one of those rebels who covers up the Apple logo.Me? They'll pry my Panasonic Toughbook out of my cold, dead fingers...-----------------------------------------------------------------Edit: I just checked (because it's not something I'm up to date on) and there's Windows/AMD Ryzen laptops with comparable battery life to Apple's M1https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/all-day-strong-longest-lasting-notebooks

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 06:35:12 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 09, 2021, 06:22:11 pmI'll concede that pointGetting a genuine Brymen at Brymen prices isn't as easy in the USA. Whatever deal they made with Greenlee isn't helping their cause.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/usa-how-to-purchase-brymen-dmm-(greenlee-brand-or-other)/

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 06:38:46 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on September 09, 2021, 06:16:18 pmFor a laptop in my case, dual removable HDD/SSD (actual dual discrete units that I can take out and hold one in each hand separately), at least two and preferably four actual type A USB-ports backwards compatible both physically and electrically all the way back to USB 1.0without any adapters or dongles. Strong preferences include HDMI and DVI/Thunderbolt connectionswithout adapters or dongles. I also like a standard wired LAN port--and have one--but that wouldn't necessarily be a deal killer.Of course I also want things like 32GB, Type-C USB, fast GPU, large hi-res screen, etc--but the Macs do offer those. And needless to say, my laptop is not sleek, light or small--which doesn't bother me in the least given the way that I use it. However, it would apparently kill the stylish Mac designers to offer a large, clunky model like that.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 06:44:40 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on September 09, 2021, 06:15:35 pmNo problem, some people don't want change.Quote from: Bassman59 on September 09, 2021, 06:15:35 pmPerfect!...except they'llnevermake a product that directly competes with the 87V. Any meter ever made by Fluke willalwaysbe missing some essential feature (usually TRMS or uA) just to keep the 87V money flowing.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 06:55:58 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 09, 2021, 06:38:46 pmWe agree on something! If I'm moving my laptop around I want smalloverall volumeand some screw holes to bolt a decent shoulder strap to it. Easily available spare parts is good. A battery that slides out of a little door on the side? Also good.Sleekness, minimal thickness, an accessory bag full of adapter cables to connect anything at all to it? Not on the list.(OK, that's two posts... but being in agreement with bdunham7 couldn't be passed up)

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 07:15:30 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on September 09, 2021, 02:51:23 pmI don't doubt it. The M1 is a newer kid on the block thatfinallygives a run for the competition. The issue is for how long they duped their users by worsening the quality of their product.Quote from: tooki on September 09, 2021, 05:31:44 pmAs I mentioned to Bassman above: the M1 is the new kid that seems to be blowing away the competition - kudos to Apple for pulling that off. However, after how many years (six or seven) they have been shooting their own foot with crappy keyboards, removing function keys (gimmicky touch bar), terrible CPU throttling, eroding reliability, removing useful ports in favour of a plethora of dongles, terrible service, etc.? They have been ridiculed but glorified by a great part of their user base. Oh well... One of the voices of reason (Rick Beato) can be seen in this funny rant that dates back from the eye of the hurricane days of crapification.https://youtu.be/MKJjLwMUPJI(oh, and don't forget to watch the follow up video with the criticism from the fanboys)https://youtu.be/3Dp_bGu92SkI guess this is derailed enough from my end, but Fungus' point can be applied to other areas as well.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 07:25:53 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 06:28:29 pmYou obviously haven't a clue about Apple, or many things it's seems. Have you ever owned an Apple and spent the time to understand and use it...doubt it!!We'll I was a PC person only....... until ~2011 when I got fed up with the constant "Blue Screen of Death" and purchased a MacBook Pro. My only regret is why did I wait so long suffering with the Microsoft OS!!!BTW I easily changed the SSD in the MBP a number of years ago, also easily added a SSD to the Mac Pro we have. Also have Windows 10 running in bootcamp when needed, since some SW won't run on the Mac OS.Let's not forget about all the built-in utilities the Mac OS possesses (and they work and get updated with the OS), or not requiring all sorts of virus protection.I value my time, so don't want to waste it on non-productive things, however YMMV!!Best,

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 08:03:49 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 11:11:35 amIt's overpriced only if you exclude the reputation factor.A reputation like Fluke's takesdecadesto build. It's not something that relatively new players can replicate until they've been around the same amount of time and have produced solid, reliable products for all that time, with few if any failures for theentiretime.QuoteThe meter itself isn't. The reputation behind it is. And for some people, that matters a lot. For people (like electricians) that need their equipment to work No Matter What and also need them to fail safely, the reputation of the company is of paramount importance, because it instills a confidence in the equipment that can't be had any other way. Now add to that the fact that the model they're looking at (the 87V) has been the same for many years, and thus has by itself built a long and (at least for the most part) exemplary track record, and you end up having to ask why Fluke wouldwantto change it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 08:18:40 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 09, 2021, 08:03:49 pmExactly. The meter is good, it's not spectacular, it's not the only good meter out there, not by a long shot, but it's good, very good, and it has a reputation proven by time. When you buy one you know exactly what you're going to get. You know it will be good and you know the company that makes it will stand behind it. If it breaks they will service it, often even years later. How many companies can you think of that are interested or even willing to service a product they sold 30 years ago? Not many I bet, and there is value in that. A few hundred bucks is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. The way so many companies constantly update their products and constantly add unnecessary features is exactly the problem with so many of them, everything is a moving target, you never quite know what you're getting. The product they released 5 years ago that was fantastic is forgotten and unsupported. The latest version who knows.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 08:26:14 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 06:28:29 pmMy employer issued laptop is a Macbook, there are things I don't like about it but overall it works very well. I'm not sure what you mean by "interesting" software but it runs everything I need to do my job. The OS is slick and polished but it has Unix under the hood, there's a fully functional bash terminal with all the command line utilities you'd expect on any *nix system. While I personally like to have the ability to add RAM and upgrade things, the vast majority of consumers don't care about this, probably 95% of all laptops sold go from the retail box to the recycle bin in their stock original configuration having never been upgraded in any way. Most people just simply do not care, when it comes time to upgrade they buy a whole new machine. Apple may have started that trend but they are far from alone anymore, there are a great many laptops now that are not upgradeable. Frankly we have a lot less problems with the Macs than we do with the PCs at work. There are a bunch of Dells with Windows 10 and they are constantly having issues.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 08:30:11 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 09, 2021, 08:18:40 pmNone of that explains why Fluke hasn't ever produced the "spectacular" meter instead of carefully tiptoeing around the 87V so as not to disturb it.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 08:49:01 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 08:30:11 pmHow many Fluke meters do you own? 3 or so as I recall? That's a lot for such a vocal Fluke critic. Just come out of the closet already and admit you lust after the yellow holster. Then buy yourself a 287.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 08:56:24 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 09, 2021, 07:25:53 pmYes, the Macs from 2008 and a few years onward were basically just configurable PCs with a BIOS that allowed OSX to be installed. And then you needed Windows anyway. But that show is over with current Mac products--you won't be upgrading, repairing, or running Windows on, the latest M1 wundergizmos. So if they work for you--great. If not, then....they don't work.

author: Neper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 09:05:13 pm
content: https://www.parallels.com/blogs/parallels-desktop-17/

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 09:07:41 pm
content: Quote from: Neper on September 09, 2021, 09:05:13 pmRead footnote #1.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 09:13:12 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 08:30:11 pmThere's clearly no sense in arguing with you, you've got your fingers in your ears going "LA LA LA LA LA!!!" the whole time people are explaining exactly why Fluke doesn't screw with a successful formula. It's a time-proven design with a reputation, and that reputation is priceless. You've made it very clear that you think you know more about running a business than they do, so why don't you go design a "spectacular" meter and show them all how it's done by taking the market by storm. Let us know how you plan to pull decades of reputation out of nowhere and good luck with your venture. In the meantime I think I'll just add you to my ignore list since you are seeming more and more like a clueless troll who just wants to argue.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 09:41:28 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 08:30:11 pmUm, isn't that what the Fluke 289 (or 287) is supposed to be?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 10:32:06 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 09, 2021, 09:41:28 pmIf it is then Fluke failed dismally.Quote from: james_s on September 09, 2021, 09:13:12 pmWhat would I do to the 87V to "spectacularize" it without even changing The Magic Formula?Off the top of my head:* Faster autoranging. Autoranging can never be fast enough. Where's the "Damn, that'sfast!" factor? I'm sure Fluke could sell a whole load of upgrades just by doing that.* Bigger capacitance range. Why should I have to grab a $25 Aneng meter to measure more than 10mF? (nb. The 87IV went to 50mF, the 87V was a step backwards)* Bigger resistance range (the 87IV went to 500MOhm, why go back to 50 in the 87V?)* Wider TRMS bandwidth - make it useful for audio! (the 87IV went to 100kHz...)* Continuity test with backlight. This is actually a critical safety feature for working in noisy environments where you can't hear th ebeeper. I'm told Fluke is all "safety first" but they don't even do this simple thing. Again: The 87IV had a "wobbly" beeper for this reason so Fluke knows about it.* Current socket jack-alert should flash the backlight. For the same safety reasons.* Some way to set DC current mode by default. I get that big corporations don't want every meter to have a different setting depending on who used the meter last but it should be possible even if I have to open it up and join two PCB pads with a blob of solder. My meter, my choice!* Better display - a freebie DT830B has way better contrast than a Fluke. I'm told this is because there's less segments and less multiplexing, so... reduce the 87V's multiplexing! Get it blacker than black.* Gold plated test leads as standard (FFS, Fluke!)* How about a nice workbench stand that powers the meter via an inductive charger? When you put the meter in the stand it disables the auto-power off, increases the CPU speed and switches to 20,000 count mode. That way you can use it all day on the bench at max performance and without it falling over when you press the buttons. I'm sure they'd sell a ton of those.* Backlit buttons and symbols around the selector switch so you can use it in the dark (a small light pipe in the end of the selector switch could catch the light from the symbols and make the pointer visible). This would be a wow featureanda safety feature.* 9999 counts instead of 6000 (OK, that might change manuals/procedure but I have a hard time believing anybody would be fatally confused by it)* 0.01% accuracyQuote from: james_s on September 09, 2021, 09:13:12 pmNope.It's just that find it very,veryhard to believe that I'm the only person in the world who doesn't see divine perfection in the 87V or that several improvements are possible.Maybe I'm the only one here with any imagination.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 10:44:58 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 09, 2021, 08:49:01 pmFive! (101, 187, 27FM, 37, 8060A)Brymens? Only one!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 10:55:45 pm
content: One other thing:Joe discovered areas where the 87V shows a wrong reading on screen. They should probably address that, too, in a meter that I'm constantly being told is all "safety first!"Here's one showing about 50 volts less that it ought to be showing:As usual, the 87IV shows these values correctly.Joe's post is here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg3630224/#msg3630224He did a more in depth look at this issue but I don't remember which video it was in...

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 10:58:48 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 10:32:06 pmHow so? What capabilities is the 287/289 missing that causes it to "fail dismally" at being a "spectacular" meter?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 11:03:07 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 10:32:06 pmNobody sees divine perfection in the 87V, just a dependable known quantity that is still in demand. The 87IV was a big advancement, but it didn't go over well as as replacement, so they retreated, New Coke style. I don't know why they later dropped the 187/189 altogether. Most of your ideas would either be disliked or go unused by 99% of 87V users, although I must say the flashing backlight is actually a very good idea.QuoteThat's more than me in handhelds...

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 11:25:29 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 10:55:45 pmWell why don't you reveal what was actually going on there. I suppose the autoranging could work differently, but then it might not be optimized for stability in noisy environments. However, this is really quite a different issue than what it appears to be. I don't think it needs addressing. Neither meter is actually giving you a valid number relevant to 'safety', but at least the Fluke is displaying the lightning bolt.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 11:37:27 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 09, 2021, 04:21:15 amMaybe you didn't grasp that smartphones are only one possible way to receive Bluetooth. I'm sure Fluke will be happy to sell you a rugged yellow Bluetooth receiver for when you're away from the workbench.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 11:48:59 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 09, 2021, 11:03:07 pmYes but CocaCola came back later with Coke Zero and it's been amassivesuccess.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 12:15:21 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 09, 2021, 10:58:48 pmIt's not so much the capabilities as the overly complex user interface (going into a submenu to select "rel" mode instead of just pushing a button with a triangle on it) , the sluggish/ghosty display, the startup time, the short battery life.It seems to be designed as a bench meter which is left on all day, so maybe startup time isn't critical but the battery life is. The shape is also all wrong for bench use - it's way too tall and wobbly to use on the stand.TLDR: it just doesn't add up to me. It's not a good grab-and-measure meter, it's not as good as a dedicated bench meter.Our Joe compared one with a much cheaper Uni-T and it seemed to come off much worse in terms of display/usability:Obviously the Unit-T died with the grill starter but it's a Uni-T.

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 12:36:52 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 10:55:45 pmIs this video at 20:00, but I didn't understand what exactly caused the problem. Seems the auto-range has a glitch, but what signal is that, is AC+DC, has voltage variation? How can I replicate it? Thanks.https://youtu.be/ciwBB5kYvJM?t=1200

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 02:00:24 am
content: I'm with Fungus,I have a 289 and it is my least favorite meter to use.This morning I had to monitor a couple of voltages so I reached for my BM896s and my Fluke 175 instead.My favorite meter in terms of comfortable UI is definitely my 6.5 digit bench keysight. The only downside is the boot time. If that was 5 seconds, it would be perfect.

author: 25 CPS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 02:13:21 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 11:37:27 pmKind of like how Keysight does:It’s great. I can set up my meters to instrument something in whatever environment it’s in and then observe from a comfortable seat. It’s saved me a lot of contortionist acts watching meters without tying my phone up in the process.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 02:39:40 am
content: Quote from: Trader on September 10, 2021, 12:36:52 amHe's essentially testing normal-mode rejection with about 500VAC and an adjustable DC bias. In order for a meter to reject an AC signal larger than the DC signal, it needs to be in a range where the AC peaks don't exceed the range by too much, otherwise it clips and doesn't evenly reject the AC signal. Some meter's autoranging will detect the AC peaks and range up, some won't--and a lot depends on the exact ranges and stimuli applied. In this case the 87V was not in 20,000 count mode, which means it was in the 60V range and the AC would have been grossly overloading the input. I'm not sure why 6K mode was used nor do I know if it would matter.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 02:43:57 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on September 10, 2021, 02:00:24 amOh I agree--it's a pain in the ass. Until you need it. And then you need it. And you may not know that you need it until things just aren't working out and you realize that you needed it.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 05:25:41 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 10, 2021, 12:15:21 amThere's a limited amount of real estate for buttons and things. Which button would you have replaced with "rel" mode?QuoteWere faster displays that use the same amount of energy or less available at the time of the 289's design (introduced in 2008, so likely around 2006 or so)? Once Fluke introduces a model, it isn't likely to change it except to fix actual faults in it, precisely because of the procurement stability characteristic that makes Fluke meters desirable to a lot of buyers.In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if these meters go through various certification programs in order to be salable to certain buyers (such as government contractors). If that's the case, then youdo notscrew with anything in the design or BOM after that, because if you do then you have to go back through certification all over again.You wanna know why private airplanes are so expensive? It's because of the certification requirements they have to pass, imposed by the FAA. For meters, those requirements would be imposed as a condition of purchase by government and some commercial entities, while the FAA imposes them as a condition of sale to the general public. But the principle is the same, and the effect on cost and change flexibility is also the same.Why do you think Fluke introduced a new model variant of the 87, instead of simply changing up the existing variant, and why do you think it took Fluke so long in between each iteration to do it? Businesses don't make decisions like this just for the fun of it, you know. They're carefully considered, because screwing them up can cost you the company.QuoteAll a function of the technology used, which is 2006 or so technology.Fluke could introduce a new meter with the characteristics you want, but it would need a compelling reason to do so. Which means it would need a large enough target market to make it worth it.QuoteThat's true today, but what about back in 2008?QuoteWhich is sorta the point. The Uni-T is a400 dollar meter(thecurrent price, before shipping, from the Uni-T store on Amazon). The Fluke is certainly more expensive, but notthatmuch more expensive (the 287 is $580 MSRP, but Amazon currently sells it for$480).The Uni-T may be more featureful and more modern. What a surprise, seeing how it's, what, about 10 years newer? But the Fluke is a higher quality meter, likely bya lot. The fact that Fluke has amortized the engineering cost of the 287 over such a long period of time is one of the reasons it's not even more expensive than it is. Honestly, I'm astonished that it's anywhere close to being price competitive with the Uni-T.But yeah, it's no substitute for a bench meter. If it's a bench meter you want, then get a bench meter and be done with it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 06:46:07 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 10, 2021, 05:25:41 amThis is on theFluke web site today:"New functionality" happens, and it's a feature!(Is that a Fluke Phone?)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 07:02:11 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 10, 2021, 05:25:41 amYou mean the 87V Max?The "Max" is cynical marketing by Fluke, it's a rebadge of the 28II so that all the people who go looking for an 87V see the word "Max" and think it must be a better 87V.IMHO the "Max" undermines everything that's been said here about long term stability of product lines because the 87V and 87V Maxaren'tthe same electrical spec.Also: Anybody who was relying on supply of the 28 II now has a problem. Fluke has left them high and dry.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 08:05:04 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 10, 2021, 07:02:11 amNo, I mean the 87V after the 87IV, the 87IV after the 87III, etc.Maybe the "max" qualifies as the next meter in the lineage. Can't say.And the way you're talking suggests you're missing some of what I wrote. I wrote "instead of simply changing up the existing variant" as part of the sentence you responded to above. The point of what I wrote should be obvious: Fluke doesn't generally seem to make changes to meters in their existing lineup, but instead offers new variants (the "max" might well qualify, whatever you might think of it)for good reason.QuoteWhy would the "max" undermine anything, since the 87V is still offered as-is? The "max" is a different meter.QuoteWhy? The 28 II is still available.Is Fluke discontinuing any of these meters? If so, their site doesn't make that readily apparent, at least that I've seen.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 11:23:08 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 10, 2021, 08:05:04 amThe 87IV was a complete redesign, not an incremental step. People panicked even though it was a much better meter.The other steps (from 87 -> 87II, from 87II -> 87III) were gradual and well received.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 11:56:47 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 10:55:45 pmI read the whole thread. In the case the the Brymen BM78x series, these problems were addressed with the firmware. I also mentioned during my review of the BM789 that I suspected the same problem had returned after updating the firmware to the latest (swap IC). However, it turned out to be a problem with the alignment caused from changing the IC. Again, something that was known from the start. In the case of the 87V, I doubt it's of any concern for the typical technician.For the OPs audio work, the free meters we get from HF will run on a single 9V for about 1000 hours. In many ways, this meter is better than my first DMM which was a benchtop Fluke 8000A.***Add more detail

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 03:03:29 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 10, 2021, 06:46:07 amDon't worry, the meter has not been touched AFAIK. Fluke has a whole new FC line of remote-connected measurement modules and this is new PC software for them. I don't see the phone-like display module listed anywhere, but I don't think FC is bluetooth. Seems like innovation to me!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 03:49:41 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 09, 2021, 06:04:46 pmAs a lifelong Mac user, I actually share your sentiment. My desktop is a 2008 Mac Pro, and one reason I haven’t replaced it (despite the desperate need for an upgrade) is because nothing they sell now actually really checks all the boxes. (Why are they so against internal drive bays?!?)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 04:45:47 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 10, 2021, 03:03:29 pmThat's true, it might just be a new external comms modiule.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 04:57:51 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 10, 2021, 04:45:47 pmThe phone thing or the module sitting on top of the meter? The module on the meter is not new, it goes in place of the IR cable that usually attaches there. The whole thing gets a bit unwieldy and I really wouldn't be eager to have my $1K meter and module sitting down in the bowels of some machine. I like the new modular remote measuring widgets a whole lot better for that sort of 'remote measurement in a dangerous place' work.https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-v3000-fcOr this all-in-one monster:https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/condition-monitoring/power/3540-power-monitor-sensor

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 05:40:26 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 10, 2021, 08:05:04 amSo why does the 87Max exist? It's just a 28II in disguise, why confuse the 87V buyers?

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 09:34:10 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 10, 2021, 11:23:08 amAnd that doesn't clue you in on why Fluke doesn't do major changes to their existing models, and instead releases completely new models?

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 12:29:34 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 10, 2021, 05:40:26 pmThat's a good question. The 87 Max appears to be a 28II with a high resolution mode. I haven't done any kind of deep comparison between them. This smells like a marketing trick to me, and may actually be related to the nature of the problems of certification and acceptability to institutional customers (like government).

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 12:40:20 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 10, 2021, 09:34:10 pmDespite the 87IV and its subsequent numbers 187/189 work well, I still suspect there was something else (parts availability, manufacturability, some inherent design flaw) behind these models for them to have been retired relatively quickly.I have several models (including a 87V and a 189) and I can tell the 87V feels immensely more solid (my old 179 sold years ago was the same)

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 01:30:37 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 11, 2021, 12:40:20 amThat's entirely possible. Even so, note how Fluke came out with new models that had separate designations, rather than simply changing the design/BOM of the existing model.QuoteI have an 87 III and it's also quite solid.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 01:48:12 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 10, 2021, 09:34:10 pmI'm not asking for major changes to anything, I'd be quite happy with a completely new model. Right now they're not doing either.Where's Fluke's technological tour-de-force?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 01:54:41 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 11, 2021, 12:29:34 amMe too. To me it smells like they're using "87V" branding to sell a meter that makes $100 more profit then the standard "87V" model.The two meters aren't equivalent so it flies in the face of everything that's been said here about the 87V being an untouchable industry standard.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 02:38:33 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 11, 2021, 12:40:20 amWe had a 187 (I think) at a former job. It was not a bad meter but I was not really a huge fan either. The main thing I remember is it used AA batteries rather than the less leak-prone 9V used by the 87, and surprise surprise, some batteries leaked in it at some point and corroded the battery terminals. I like the 9V batteries, they almost never leak, and the battery snap that fits them is a commodity part that is easily replaced if it gets damaged.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 02:48:50 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 10, 2021, 11:56:47 amBut still, it's an issue that could be addressed in the flagship meter of supposedly the best brand in the world.You video shows that the 87Vcanmeasure the signal correctly, it's a problem with firmware/autoranging.Quote from: joeqsmith on September 10, 2021, 11:56:47 amWithin days...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 02:57:04 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 11, 2021, 02:38:33 amIn terms of measurement the 87IV/187/189 are far better than the 87V but they have their issues.eg. The 187/189 have a built in clock for time-stamping events. This means it never truly turns off, it has a standby current of about 70uA.Anything with a small power drain like that is a recipe for battery leaks.The 189 also had problems with the internal supercap that can leak and/or drain the battery. If you want an old 50,000 count Fluke then the 187 is the one to get IMHO.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 03:41:25 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 11, 2021, 02:48:50 amI really don't know much about Fluke or the 87V. It may use a masked part with some minimum buy. They could be sitting on a last time buy. They may also be out of code space. It may not even be something that could be addressed in firmware. For that matter, they may not even have the source or the talent to roll a changes if they wanted. If they could change it, they may not have the resources to qualify it. We are talking about a very old product. Contrast that with a brand new product where the engineers are fully engaged in its development. I would fully expect the latter to be able to respond much faster.Consider also that when I started to look at the Brymen 78x series, it was not available for purchase. At this stage I suspect Brymen considered their risk much lower than say changing one of their more mature products. I would not be surprised if my review didn't delay the their release date as unlike Dave, I arrived very late to the party.While I grabbed the 87V to make the point that this kind of problem is not unique to the Brymen 78x series, it's certainly not unique to the Fluke 87V. I've shown similar problems with other brands as well. I suspect you don't hear to much about it as the electricians are not working with such signals. I had someone ask me once why I would ever need to look at something faster than 60Hz. That's their world and the 87V is a good fit for some of them. For those of us working outside that world, we have products like the 78x.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 03:45:04 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 11, 2021, 02:48:50 amPerhaps, but making a change to accommodate an atypical misuse of the meter might result in an issue elsewhere. You want fast autoranging, but it can cause issues--and has IIRC from past posts. I'm sure if I had both meters here I could dream up a test that would reveal an issue with fast autoranging. And with firmware updates, rapid response to one problem may result in failing to spot another. Now the actual flagship, the 289, actually has a nice feature for sorting this type of issue out--Auto Lo-Z that displays both the AC and DC parts of the input on a fixed 1kV scale.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 03:47:51 am
content: The real question is how is that UNI-T 61E+ going to handle it?? I hear its every bit as good as the 87V, just cheaper.

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 08:14:45 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 11, 2021, 03:45:04 amRegarding "Flagship Model": now which models other brands are most likely, direct competitors, alternatives or even better than the 289?The Fluke 289 sells in Austria for approx.: 700€

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 08:44:19 am
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on September 11, 2021, 08:14:45 amMy look at high end meters includes most competitors:https://lygte-info.dk/info/DMMHigh-end%20UK.htmlThe most direct competitor is the UNI-T UT181AAnother interesting meter is Chauvin Arnoux CA 5293, it is not a direct competitor, but is generally more advanced than the 289.

author: sotos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 08:59:33 am
content: Why I sold my 289 and bought the UNI-T UT181A.Because fluke measurement datalogging stores the measurements as electrical 1 electrical 2, not sure If I remember .UNI-T UT181A can save your measurement datalogging what ever name you want. Fluke does not allow it.Second the batteries discharge and if you forget to change them they leak and destroy the battery compartment.It happened to me.

author: Synthtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 11:34:33 am
content: The Hioki DT4282 is worth a look if you want something with Japanese build quality that feels like a stable bench DMM in a portable package.For me though I have to have a bench meter as well because the two things that a absolutely dislike and also regard as somewhat dangerous are what I regard as design defects in handheld DMMs - The meter rather than the operator decides when to turn off the display backlight and when to turn off the display itself.I don’t care if it reduces battery life. If I want the display backlight to turn off I want to do that myself, not have it happen unexpectedly during a critical part of the task.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 01:55:07 pm
content: Quote from: Synthtech on September 11, 2021, 11:34:33 amI believe the Fluke 87V actually does that - one thing they got right, yay!My Brymen doesn't, the backlight time is ridiculously short - 30 seconds IIRC.---------------------Edit: On my 87IV the backlight time is user-definable, including "infinite" if I want it.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 02:29:04 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on September 11, 2021, 08:14:45 amThat's some pretty stiff pricing, but I suppose with VAT it's just the way it is. IMO, probably Chauvin Arnoux/Metrix is what I would consider if I were an EU resident. Unfortunately for us, their products are not widely available in the US. So that opinion is based on specs and what other people have said about them, not direct experience.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 02:57:10 pm
content: Quote from: sotos on September 11, 2021, 08:59:33 amThere comes that time you need to use the UT181A and the battery is flat (dead). 12-24 hours latter, you're ready to make your measurement. Once it's past it's life, your not going to the local gas station to buy a new battery pack.For data logging, I want a PC interface and LabView. The 181A offers a BLE interface and with some help from a few members, I was eventually able to get it working.I like how they stole the 289s UI as it makes it very easy to use. While the meter has several problems, if they make an improved version I would be very interested in having a look.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 02:59:36 pm
content: Chauvin Arnoux/Metrix 3055 has used latching relays. After seeing that top notch German engineering using them, I'm skeptical.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 03:16:46 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 10, 2021, 03:49:41 pmIt kills me when people presume that I'm anti-Mac because I don't know anything about them. I've been using them since the Apple II, but have abandoned them as they simply wouldn't do what I needed. My wife is also a life-long Mac user and while she survived the trauma of having to ditch all of her expensive G4 stuff, she's finally switching to PCs. I did everything I could to maintain working Macs, including building a Hackintosh that she used for about 5 years, upgrading the last version of the Macbook Pro that had an optical drive and replaceable SSD/memory, but now things are just impossible. Piles of adapter dongles, active cables for Thunderbolt data rates that nobody should needexternally, restrictions on what monitors will work with what. And then the OSX updates that break external adapters designed to overcome these shortcomings. It works for some people, I suppose.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 03:44:23 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 11, 2021, 12:40:20 amIt would be good to know the insider story of the 87IV - both design and demise.The only meter we really know the story of is the 8060A thanks to D. Taylor who occasionally hangs out here.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 03:48:14 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 11, 2021, 03:16:46 pmI've also been accused of not knowing Macs in this thread... despite several of the posts being typed on one.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 04:24:35 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 11, 2021, 03:44:23 pmWe can speculate. Design--perhaps some input from Tektronix engineers? Marketing it as an 87-series I explained as the New Coke syndrome. Demise--perhaps they used Maxim? Or perhaps the 289 was another New Coke and it didn't taste bad enough to fail in the market.

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 04:52:51 pm
content: Quote from: Synthtech on September 11, 2021, 11:34:33 amIt looks very promising! pricing is approx. 600€ - availability is a little bit a hassle.IMHO Fluke 289 and also the Gossen Series are very high end and well built DMMs but cost to much for what they offer. Brymen and also maybe Uni-T, CEM & Co seems to fill in the gap (maybe also surpass them feature wise) between the high end well known brands and the not so good cheap china type dmmsA decent benchtop would really be nice. I'm considering buying Keithley, Keysight, Siglent maybe something else?

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 05:27:50 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 11, 2021, 03:16:46 pmAlso had an Apple II and the IIe, developed a DSO, AWG and SA for these way back when they first arrived. Later we got the original IBM PC where we developed some CAD tools for circuit analysis to do transforms based upon the Central Limit Theorem, and stayed with the PCs thru DOS and Windows era using arrays of PCs for advanced IC design. However was getting more and more frustrated with the Blue Screen of Death and finally flipped for the 1st Retina Display MBP, then a few years later a Mac Pro (Trash Can type). Learning the Mac OS from the PC experiences was trying at times, but in the long run well worth the effort.Never an issue with upgrades, went with a larger SSD on the MBP and then added another SSD to the Mac Pro. Have 4 Lacie Thunderbolt drives, 3 are large dual hard disks, and one dual SSD drives, have 2 USB drives that run Time Machine with alternate drives. Also have dual 27" 4K monitors, 1 Apple and 1 Dell. The TB hard drives were refurbs that were refitted with larger Segate HDs, one was fitted with dual SSD. All are RAID type configured directly from the Mac OS without any need for 3rd party software, and Time Machine does it's thing in the background without any supervision or fuss.All the OS upgrades have not had an issue except that the 10 year old non-monthly-subscription version of Photoshop and Lightroom we paid for no longer works, and I have no intention to move the Adobe subscription base PS anytime soon as GIMP is a fill in. If we start doing the serious ultra-resolution chip imaging again, we'll probably need to bite the bullet and pay Adobe againBTW our early IC development work migrated from an array of PCs & Sun workstations, to HP Unix machines and finally to custom hardware running Red Hat to support the Cadence tool sets and other software.Disclaimer, we do have a MBP, Mac Pro with paid Windows 10 installed via Bootcamp, and a PC laptop for use with devices that don't support the Mac OS, however all our "Serious" work is done on the Macs.So the Apple stuff just works for us without any fuss, and no need for any anti-virus or other 3rd party software, however YMMV!!Best,

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 05:50:43 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 11, 2021, 03:16:46 pmI feel very similarly. I like my work Macbook quite a bit, but there are just enough limitations that I cannot see myself ever investing my own money in the platform. The dongles are such a pain, every other laptop I can think of has more than just a few USB-C ports to connect peripherals. I really don't like the soldered in memory and storage either. It's thinner than necessary and makes too many compromises to achieve that and the selection of hardware that supports the OS is much too limited so no sale, but I'm not going to fault people who do choose it if it works for them.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 06:08:54 pm
content: The exact point I made a few posts ago... For six, seven years they have been duping their customers with impractical and limiting design decisions.The mac I use the most is a pre-dongle era Macbook Pro from 2015 withrealUSB3 and HDMI ports.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 06:10:59 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 11, 2021, 02:59:36 pmAfter seeing your posts about the Gossen, I never understood the real reason to use relays on a battery powered meter - although they give the absolute lowest leakage possible, they seem wasteful w.r.t. power consumption, not to mention mechanically fragile.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 06:14:48 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 11, 2021, 03:44:23 pmIndeed it is a mystery. With a track record that does not evidence any functional shortcoming, another theory could be a managerial change that decided to ditch the product in favour of another with more "differentiation" (MBA wording, naturally).The background that David Ryan Taylor provided about the 8060A design is precious.

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 06:29:43 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 11, 2021, 06:10:59 pmhttps://www.electrical4u.com/latching-relay/

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 06:30:42 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 11, 2021, 12:29:34 amThe 28 II has the high res mode, too. As far as anyone can tell, there are zero differences between the 28 II and 87V Max.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 06:35:46 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 11, 2021, 03:48:14 pmProbably because of a factually incorrect statement you made, one which is a common refrain among Mac haters: that you are restricted in what software you can run. That’s simply untrue: you can run whatever software you want, from whatever source. Yes, in later versions of Mac OS you have to change the default settings to run unsigned/unnotarized software, but it absolutelywilllet you do it.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 06:39:10 pm
content: Quote from: Trader on September 11, 2021, 06:29:43 pmI don't know anything about the 3055's French meter outside of asking about the relays. With the Gossen, they have no way to detect the state of the relay. If they are in the wrong state, the meter may not read correctly. We end up with cases where potential lethal levels are present at the input and the meter shows a few volts. The relay can be controlled remotely (BLE interface). This also seems like a really bad idea.

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 06:58:20 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 11, 2021, 06:10:59 pmPower consumptions is not an issue, it is set/reset relays, i.e. they only need power to change state. This is also the issue Joe is complaining about: A strong magnetic field may change the relay without the meter knowing it.The strong magnetic field can be from a magnetic hanger for the DMM (If placed at the most sensitive location on the DMM), i.e. if you use a magnetic hanger you DMM may show a wrong value. Personally I do not see it as a big issue because I have never needed a magnetic hanger for my DMMs.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 07:49:49 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 11, 2021, 05:27:50 pmWell, then you're lucky. Or, more likely, I'm unlucky. I've had a problem of one kind or another witheverymajor upgrade of MacOS. And Windows. And Linux. Such upgradesalwaysbreak something I rely on. Most of the time, such breakage is an annoyance. Sometimes it's critical. But it's consistent. So I've basically stopped doing upgrades on bare metal hardware except when I have no choice in the matter.Instead, I now use virtual machines for everything I do save for gaming. With a virtual machine, I can snapshot the thing and perform whatever upgrades I want, and if those fail I can simply revert back to the snapshot.And I use Linux (the Unity interface on Ubuntu) for almost everything, because when things break I at least have some hope of being able to fix it myself, and it hasn't limited what I can do with it for quite some time (save, again, for gaming). And it, too, doesn't need an antivirus program or some other kludge like that in order to keep going safely and reliably.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 08:50:51 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 11, 2021, 06:35:46 pmThat is super annoying, and it seems to re-enable itself after a while when I have disabled it. The biggest issue I have with that particular feature is I don't trust Apple to not make it more restrictive in the future. Already I cannot find a way to permanently disable the OS upgrade nag. There are few things in modern technology that irritate me as much as forced update and update nags that I can't disable. I will upgrade MY devices on MY terms, period, this is not negotiable. I'm not interested in being lectured about the risks.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 09:07:31 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 11, 2021, 01:48:12 amWell, more precisely, they're not doing a meter that targets the market you're in. Based on what you've said here in this thread, what you seem to be looking for is a handheld meter with bench capabilities that sips batteries and doesn't cost what a top-tier bench meter would cost.That, it seems, is what you mean by a "technological tour-de-force". Of course, if you mean something else, then you should describe exactly what you mean.Whatever they produce as a "technological tour-de-force" would quickly be obsoleted due to technological progress. Which is to say, the "technological tour-de-force" you pine for wouldn't remain one for long (certainly not for the amount of time most of their meters remain in production), unless it were truly exceptional in some way that is very difficult to replicate (such as precision, which requires temperature stability), which would make it too expensive to sell into the market you're in, which means it wouldn't be worth producing for that purpose.The problem here is that "exceptional in a difficult to replicate way" almost automatically means "expensive". The sole exception is a truly novel breakthrough that they could patent, one which would give the meter some capability that nothing else has. But expectingthatis quite obviously unreasonable. Breakthroughs like that don't happen on demand, and in any case the very first product such a thing would likely be put into would likely be a top-tier meter, i.e. something near the top of the price range.And in any case, bench meter capabilities will always commanda minimumof a bench meter price. How can it be otherwise? A bench meter doesn't have some of the constraints that a handheld does (like power draw), so to put bench meter capabilities into a handheld will require a compromise. And if you're not going to compromise on the capabilities, then you're going to have to compromise on the price (i.e., pay more).So no matter how you slice it, what it seems you're really asking for here isn't something that Fluke will deliver. Why should they? They don't play in the "latest technology" product market, at least for handhelds. I don't know that they ever have, really. They build durable, functional meters for the long run, ones that can be depended on for decades. That's what they've built their reputation on. Why would they want to change that to satisfy what is likely a tiny market (a handheld with bench meter capabilities that would wind up commanding a minimum of a bench meter price and thus not sell very well)?But if it's really a bench meter you want, then Fluke has you covered with the 8845A or 8808A. What's wrong with those?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 03:13:30 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 11, 2021, 09:07:31 pmNot necessarily. We now live in a software world, a meter could have an internal temperature sensor and be calibrated for a range of different temperatures (eg. at 5 degree intervals), then interpolated. That could even reduce the BOM by reducing the need for components with very high temperature stability.More digits is nice but not necessarily a goal. I've already mentioned some areas where the 87V is out of date. A "tour-de-force" meter would be able to measure more than a 10mF capacitor and would have more than 20hKz AC bandwidth.Auto-ranging could also be instant, or at least "Damn, that's fast!" speed. I've got an Aneng that can measure a voltage faster than the continuity test on some other meters. You can literally tap the probe on the wire as fast as you can move your hand and you'll have a hard timenotgetting a reading.Really small resistances, really small capacitances... another area where a "tour-de-force" meter could shine.In short, I'm not imagining a smartphone with a new model every six months, just the best possible "Fluke-like" meter using today's tech.(And the ability to select DC current mode as default)Quote from: kcbrown on September 11, 2021, 09:07:31 pmSimply not true. Fluke currently sells a $100 multimeter with roughly the same build as an 87V. It use the same fuses, the same type of case, pretty much the same everything. Our Joe torture tested one and it hold up perfectly to the tests both electrically and mechanically.OK, it doesn't have the same laser-trimmed resistor thingy inside it, but the difference in BOM makes doesn't justify a $350 markup.Quote from: kcbrown on September 11, 2021, 09:07:31 pmOf course they have! Back in the day Fluke innovated more than just about any other company. How do you think the 8060A and even the 87 came about? That was Fluke pushing the absolute limits with custom silicon, etc.The last 25 years? The phrase "resting on their laurels" comes to mind.(the 8060A still thrashes the 87V on many specifications - speed, AC bandwidth, accuracy... it only does volts/ohms/amps/continuity though)

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 03:38:43 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 12, 2021, 03:13:30 amWhich one is that??

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 03:48:19 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 12, 2021, 03:38:43 am15B+(OK, Joe tested the slightly more expensive 17B+ but the internal build is the same...)

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 04:06:18 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 12, 2021, 03:48:19 amOh please! 'Roughly the same build'--OK it has 4 jacks and some yellow plastic. The 17B+ does seem like a decent buy even though it is gray-market here and unsupported--just like Brymen. But hardly on par with the 87V.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 04:13:48 am
content: 17B+ is not TRMS and not the same resolution. Still it's one tough meter and held up to my life cycle test better than any other I looked at.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 04:44:15 am
content: TRMS is mandatory to me. I got by for a long time with an averaging meter (Fluke 29) but I it couldn't properly measure the output of modified sine inverters and UPSs, and it couldn't accurately measure the current of HID lamps.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 06:19:21 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 12, 2021, 04:44:15 amQuote from: joeqsmith on September 12, 2021, 04:13:48 amObviously they left out some critical measurement functions so as not to affect sales of the 87V.What I meant was that the physical build isverysimilar, it's going to last just as long... and it's only $100.Quote from: joeqsmith on September 12, 2021, 04:13:48 amYep. It also passed all your electrical zapping tests.(...although it's vanished from the latest spreadsheet.)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 06:42:01 am
content: 15/17B models are China market only and their design limitations vs the more expensive Flukes are deliberate.Fluke also deliberately restricted them to China where outside that market they have zero warranty and instead offered the 115/117 range for the rest of the world.....which in some respects are a lesser DMM than the 15/17B range.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 06:46:23 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 12, 2021, 03:13:30 amAnd what exactly makes that difficult to replicate?You don't seem to understand the problem. Fluke could do some of the things you suggest, but which markets would make the R&D worth it, much less worth it for a meter they intend to sell formany years?I said "difficult to replicate" for a reason. The reason is that if it's not something difficult to replicate, then some other competitor (e.g., Brymen) can do the same thing for a lot cheaper and steal the new market right out from under them, thus trashing their R&D investment. And since it would be anew model, it would either have to hit a market they already own (meaning it would need to appeal to people who value things other than the sorts of things you're talking about, since if the things you are talking about appealed to those customers then Fluke would already have a meter for them), or it would have to hit a new market that the other playerscouldn'thit.QuoteThe 287 and 289 both have a 100 kHz AC bandwidth and can measure up to 100 mF.The 87V may be "out of date" but you're not the market it targets. Why do you keep talking about the 87V here?QuoteI don't know what tradeoffs were made in the Aneng that gives it that kind of autoranging speed. So this is something I can't talk intelligently about.QuoteHow small, exactly? And how big is the market that needs that?QuoteWell, if Fluke comes out with something like that, then it'll be because they perceive enough of a market demand for it from their existing customers. So where's that demand among their existing customers?QuoteFluke 287/289.QuoteAnd what, exactly, makes thatdifficult to replicate?QuoteAnd back in the day, what was Fluke's competition, and how was the pricing of that competition? What was Fluke's reputation? What was it that their customers valued?If you're a younger company without a long and exemplary reputation for building top-notch equipment, then not only can you afford to innovate in the way you're talking about, you pretty much have to because it's the only way to attract customers.Once you've matured, you have to somehow hang onto your existing customers while making R&D investments that willpay off.So, again, what market do you think Fluke will wind up dominating with a completely new meter that meets the specifications you're talking about and isn't the 287/289? And how big is that market?QuoteMature companies with large numbers of existing customers tend to do that, most especially whenthe needs of their customers don't substantially change.Now, if their customers suddenly develop new needs, they'll have a solid reason to develop something new. But absent that, what you're talking about amounts to new markets, ones that are generally already addressed by youngerand cheaperplayers that haven't yet built their reputationsora stable customer base.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 09:27:19 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 11, 2021, 08:50:51 pmI haven’t run into (nor heard of before now) it changing the setting on its own. Note that I am referring to the system setting. The per-app override is saved based on the appfileitself, so depending on how a non-notarized app gets updated, it can require reauthorization after updating.Quote from: james_s on September 11, 2021, 08:50:51 pmWell, it doesn’t force updates. The upgrade nag, however, I completely agree with you on. (It’s particularly irritating on my 2008 Mac Pro: whatever dingdong wrote the nag code forgot to include a compatibility check, so it periodically nags me to upgrade my OSeven though the system is already on the last so version it supports!)And while the inability todisablethe nags is a serious oversight, having them to begin with is absolutely the right thing to do. Remember that you and I are not typical users. We understand computers well. 99% of users do not, and are best served by updating religiously. They plain and simply need someone else to make sensible decisions for them, since they don’t have the background knowledge needed to decide for themselves. Absent an always-available IT person to hold their hand, it makes sense for Apple to make those decisions. (And by and large, they’ve done a good job at it.)That is, however, orthogonal to the issue of whether Apple would ever permanently restrict macOS to only run authorized apps. And there is zero indication that that’s even distantly envisioned. For one thing, it’d weaken the platform’s attractiveness dramatically. Secondly, as of right now, the sandboxed environments are nowhere near capable of running everything that a desktop OS needs to run. Third, macOS is THE development environment for all Mac, iOS, watchOS, etc apps. You can’t develop Mac software on an OS that can’t run self-compiled apps…Remember, too, that Apple runs its entire $275B/yr business on Macs. They know what serious computer users need because they are serious computer users themselves.The fact that Apple has pushed increased OS- and hardware-level security (as everyone else has, too, and rightly so!) doesn’t mean they want to stop third party apps altogether. They have no incentive to do so, quite the contrary in fact. But it makes eminent sense to corral normal users towards “safe” options. I can tell my elderly mom “go ahead and install whatever you want from the App Store” because the chances of it causing harm are vanishingly small. The same absolutely cannot be said about apps sourced elsewhere; she doesn’t know how to determine which websites are legit and which aren’t, nor how to get herself out of trouble if she makes the wrong determination. Apple’s current approach of restricting default app sources, while providing a simple way for advanced users to lift the restrictions, is a very, very sensible approach.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 10:56:12 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 12, 2021, 06:46:23 amI'm not sure what you're after.Nothing the Fluke currently does is difficult to replicate. Unit-T already replicates the 289, Brymen already replicates the 87V, Aneng will give you all the measurement functions you'll ever need for $25, Fluke themselves will give you "Fluke build quality" for $100.As for "massive R&D"? They could easily put the Aneng chipset in a 15B+ body and create a $125 meter that sold millions. What individual/hobbyist wouldn't want one? Companies like Brymen and Uni-T would see their sales drop through the floor.Quote from: kcbrown on September 12, 2021, 06:46:23 amBecause:a) It's the meter that's holing Fluke back. Everything they've done in the "high end" in the last 25 years do is based around not upsetting the 87V cash cow.b) It's the most deified meter, it's always held up as the gold standard even though it's really not that special any more.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 06:49:50 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 12, 2021, 09:27:19 amWell it's possible something else has happened, I just know that several times I've had to update chromedriver because stupid Chrome itself silently updates despite my efforts to prevent it from doing so and then that breaks the automation scripts I'm writing and I have to waste time troubleshooting to get that working. The updated chromedriver refuses to run and I have to go dig up the command to disable that stupid thing. Maybe I did the per-app disable initially, I don't know, but with each new version of the OS it has gotten harder to control this stuff.Oh I absolutely agree that having the nag there is a good idea, and even having it on by default, but give me the ability to turn it off! I'm a control freak when it comes to this stuff, I expect computers to do what I tell them to do, and when they refuse to obey me it makes me angry. I know what I'm doing and I understand and accept the risks if I choose not to update something and I don't want to be pestered about it, ever. I used to have it completely disabled and all was fine, then I had to upgrade for something else we use and now whatever OS is the one right before Big Sur now keeps nagging me to update to that and I can't completely disable it, it's infuriating. Nag nag nag nag.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 10:38:57 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 12, 2021, 03:13:30 amYes, but what Fluke gives you for that $100 is something the other manufacturers give you for half that or less.You already indicated that one of your major gripes is the price Fluke charges. Well, for the meter you're asking for here, would you buy it for a premium price or not?Would you be willing to pay $200 for such a meter? $300? $400? $500? If you wouldn't be willing to pay an 87V price for a meter with better than 87V capability then you're not in Fluke's target market.And if you would be willing to pay that kind of price, then just exactly how large do you think that market is, and to what degree do you think it overlaps their existing markets?Fluke's reputationby itselfis an asset that enables them to charge a premium for their products. The way you take advantage of such an asset is by charging premium prices. So the premium price is essentially non-negotiable. In exchange for that reputation, and the price it commands, is the expectation that whatever they produce will be solid, reliable, safe, dependable, and supported to a degree that few other meters are. So whatever they design here wouldhave tomeet that expectation.If you're a company, you donotdestroy your existing markets in favor of new ones without areallygood reason. Fluke's primary existing market is industrial and professional field users. If those users were more price sensitive, then Fluke would lower their prices. If those users were more sensitive to the feature set, then Fluke would offer models with those new features, while doing their best to balance that against their customers who like things just as they are. Existing markets that you play in have a characteristic that new markets don't: they're a known quantity. That's wortha lotin business, because every gamble you take is a gamble you couldlose. So the payoff of any given gamble has to be worth the risk.See, part of the problem of this discussion is that you seem to presume that Fluke isn't doing the proper market research. They've been around long enough, and have been immensely successful long enough, that you shouldknowthat to be false. I think it's more likely than not that Fluke understands their markets very,verywell. And it is that understanding that guides their actions.The question isn't whether or not Fluke could come out with a meter that meets the specifications you have in mind. Fluke most certainly could. It's certainly within their technical capability. The question iswhy should they? What's the business justification that outweighs the downsides?Now factor in the fact that Fluke's parent company already owns a meter division that canand doesproduce meters like what you're talking about: Amprobe. In particular, the AM-140-A and AM-160-A. Yeah, they're Brymens, and they're excellent. Why would Fluke produce a product that competes in the same space as their sister company's products on both capability and price?QuoteReally? Why would Brymen and Uni-T see their sales drop when their prices would be even lower than the $125 you're talking about? After all,Aneng'sprice is certainlymuchlower than that.So again, it's a question of what market you're targeting. Why would people who are already price sensitive buy the Fluke? The only people who would are people who are looking for something that is a lot more robust than what Aneng, or even Brymen, produces (a condition that wouldn't last long, since Brymen, at least, would simply alter their design appropriately), or people who are willing to pay a premium for Fluke's reputation and support. That's a small subset of the overall market for a meter with the capabilities in question. And becauseFluke'smarket is people who want robustness, longevity, support, Fluke's reputation, etc., now Fluke can't just slap a new chip into their meter, they have tocharacterizeit, make sure it has the durability and other characteristics they need it to have. And that presumes they can just re-use an existing layout and design. The more things they need to change, the more R&D investment is involved.And then there's the effort of going through all of the certifications that their customers demand, unless Fluke decides to forego their institutional customers entirely with the new meter.And then, after doing all that in order to produce a $100 meter with better than 87V capability, what'll they have accomplished? I'll tell you what: they'll have managed to force themselves to reduce the price on all their other offerings just to stay price-consistent, since otherwise customers will be asking them why they charge so much for arguablylessermeters. There's a reason Fluke's 15B+ is offered only in certain areas of the world, away from their traditional customer base.QuoteThat doesn't make sense. Fluke's reputation is present for all their meters, not just the 87V. Why would you talk about what capabilities the 87V lacks when the question is whether or notFlukehas a meter with the capabilities you're looking for?But let's go with your above reason anyway. Why would Fluke want to upset their 87V cash cow? You acknowledge it's a cash cow, which means it's a massive revenue source for them. What sane company would kill such a thing?QuoteWell, on that we agree, certainly, at least in terms of capability. But Fluke produces meters with even more capability than the 87V, so if it's sheer capability you're talking about, the 87V isn't the one to focus on.That said, there's one thing the 87V brings to the table that a new meter wouldn't be able to: a well-understood and reliable history. People buy the 87V in part because it's a known-good quantity. It's a known quantity precisely because it's been around for a long time, and it's known-good because the meter has almost always performed very well. It has a certification history, too. The meter's history isby itselfan asset of the meter, one that can't be had with a new design. It's the history that makes it a "gold standard" as much as anything else.Reputations take a long time to build. Fluke's reputation would obviously be behind whatever meter they produce. But the meters themselvesalsohave reputations, and the 87V's is very good. Fluke would be insane to not take advantage of that.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 11:55:19 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 12, 2021, 10:38:57 pmYes, I'll go on record and say I'd pay 87V prices for a meter that was: "Nobody does it better!"Quote from: kcbrown on September 12, 2021, 10:38:57 pmThe "AM-140-A" is actually the Brymen I own (ie. theBM857). I believe it's as-good/better than an 87V in almost every way.(except for not having temperature, which I deliberately chose not to have because I have other gadgets for that and I'd rather have less function overload on the dial).The AM-160-A/BM859s haseven better specsfor not much more.Quote from: kcbrown on September 12, 2021, 10:38:57 pmBecause they're notyellow. The Amprobe is very capable but I don't see anybody here creating threads about them.(and they're fugly besides... the original Brymen is prettier!)Aneng doesn't count because they don't put the right sort of protection/fuses in theirs.Quote from: kcbrown on September 12, 2021, 10:38:57 pmIf they also made a tour-de-force meter at the 87V price point they'd have a too-good-to-resist meter at every level. This gives them almost the entire multimeter market to themselves. What CEO doesn't want that?(All except the $25 meters)Quote from: kcbrown on September 12, 2021, 10:38:57 pmWho said "kill"? The idea is to make people like me buy a meter at that price level, too.Quote from: kcbrown on September 12, 2021, 10:38:57 pmYep, and that's theonlything. It doesn't add any more measurement abilities so I for one amnotbuying. I can have a Brymen and $250 to spend on something else.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 01:52:36 am
content: OK, I think I figured it out:a) Fluke belongs to Fortive, which in turn belongs to Danaher.b) Fluke makes a meter called the 87V which a lot of people want to buy (irrationally or otherwise). Flukedoesn't give a hoot about the 87V*, it just knows a lot of people want to buy them.c) Danaher sells better meters under other brands for less than half the price of Flukes. If all you want is a good multimeter and you can see past the yellow color then you should probably get one of those instead.(*) This is that part that was confusing me. I was under the illusion that Fluke cares about their products. They don't.Quote from: joeqsmith on September 11, 2021, 03:41:25 amJoe was very close when he said that^.Danaher probably moved Fluke's R&D team somewhere useful. They're not needed at Fluke.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 02:26:47 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 12, 2021, 11:55:19 pmIf the new meter in question really is something that is more capable than anything else Fluke produces, then it'll command an appropriate price. You'll be paying more for it than you would a new 289. Still going to claim you'll buy it?QuoteUm, which is it? Are you going to buy a Fluke meter that does what you want, but at Fluke prices, or the equivalent meter at much less?"Nobody does it better" will last all of a couple of years (if that), after which the likes of Brymen and Aneng will produce something equivalent or better for a lower price. Becausetechnology marches on. Fluke isnotgoing to get into a technological rat race with other manufacturers in the handheld meter space. Not with their markets being what they are. If they do anything of the sort, it'll be with respect to completely novel capabilities, not the sorts of things you're talking about.If you're not going to buy an 87V with its capabilities because you can get a Brymen with equivalent capabilities for so much less, why in the world should we believe that you'd buy a new Fluke "better than everything else" meter at Fluke prices when youknowthat you can get the same thing for half the price if you just wait a year or two?I'm deeply skeptical. And I'd wager that skepticism is a skepticism that Fluke shares, and is why Fluke hasn't done what you claim it should.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 03:06:35 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 12, 2021, 11:55:19 pmNo, this is incorrect. You're missing the overall picture here. It's Fluke'sreputationthat those people are buying,more than anything else. If the reputation didn't matter, they'dalreadybe buying a different brand meter.How large do you thinkthatmarket is, compared with the market that is more price sensitive than reputation sensitive?Fluke's pricing and feature structure is the way it is preciselybecauseof their reputation.QuoteWhat makes you think such protection is going to matter for what amounts to a bench meter in a handheld form factor? What makes you think a meter with such protection but at a much higher price would sell tonew buyerswhen the vast bulk of those buyers would have no need of that protection? Fluke would put such protection in because it's Fluke and they'd want to hold onto their safety and robustness reputation. But that has a substantial cost attached to it, all on its own, one whichreducesthe overall appeal of the meter compared to a much less expensive meter with all the features save for the protection. If the meter were targeted at industrial use then it'd need the protection, but that use is precisely the use thatdoesn'tneed the features you're looking for. For that use, the 87V is apparently sufficient. It wouldn't sell as well as it does, particularly into that market, otherwise.QuoteYou think Fluke is too stupid to have donepreciselythat analysis? I strongly disagree. I think theyhavedone that analysis and found it wanting.Like I said, Fluke remains successful preciselybecausethey understand their marketsverywell. If things get to the point where a meter such as what you describe would sell enough to overcome the risks and damage to other product lines, they'd do it.QuoteWell, seeing how you've already executed in a different direction, exactly why should we believe that you'd want aFlukeinstead of a (much less expensive) Brymen of equal capability?It would kill their 87V market because the new meter would be equal to or superior to the 87V in every capability, be the same price as the 87V, and have the Fluke reputation behind it. What sane person would buy the 87V under those circumstancesexceptthose who need the 87V's track record or certification record? That'sexactlywhy it would kill the 87V's market. Granted, there would still be buyers of the 87V, but the numbers would be significantly reduced.I fully expect that we'll see something like what you're talking about (though perhaps at a somewhat higher price than the 87V) at whatever point Fluke perceives that the vast majority of the buyers of the 87V are the ones who need its track record.But until then, the presence of such a meter with the capabilities you describe and the pricepoint you describe would do nothing except to divide up the 87V market into two smaller segments. I think it's highly likely that the number ofnewbuyers of the new meter, that didn't come from the 87V market, would be small in comparison, because those people would:1. Somehow need Fluke's reputation, and yet2. Be refusing to buy a Fluke because there's nothing Fluke currently offers that satisfies their needs.I dare say that is a minuscule market. Why? Because whatever they'dneedwould somehow be something that neither the 87V nor the 289 can satisfy.Why should Fluke expend the R&D necessary to produce the meter you speak of, only to see their 87V market fractured? Where's the additional profit going to come from? I'm not seeing it at all, your claims to the contrary notwithstanding.QuoteI rest my case. You're not Fluke's target market. The situation you describe above willalwaysbe the case. Always. Fluke would have to come up with some brilliant one-of-a-kind patentable capability that nobody else would be able to match. That kind of thing doesn't happen on demand, it happensby accident. Now, maybe at whatever point that happens, we'll see Fluke come out with a meter with that capability that will draw you in. Until then, it's not gonna happen, and Fluke's business is more likely than not better off because of that.It's always possible that Fluke is missing a golden opportunity here. But frankly, this opportunity hasalwaysbeen there. What makes now different than before?Fluke's market isn't the buyer who is looking for the latest and greatest. It's the buyer who is looking for solid reliability, ruggedness, and safety from a company that's willing to back their products to the hilt. What you're talking about is the market that is comprised of the former type of buyer, not the latter. Little wonder Fluke doesn't address it.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 03:37:04 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 13, 2021, 01:52:36 amOh good lord, what a heap of errant speculation!Fortive is no longer a Danaher subsidiary, they are an S&P500 company (FTV) with $7 billion/year revenue and a 10% profit margin. A product like the 87V doesn't really stand still too long on an internal basis--the PCB has probably been revised 10X during its run so far and just making sure all the components remain available, or knowing when they won't be and planning necessary revisions, is probably a full-time job for at least one person and a part-time responsibility for many more. Their R&D team has been cranking out new products continuously, just not the bargain-priced swiss army meters that you apparently crave. Just like Coca-Cola come out with new soft drinks, expensive bottled water, etc etc--butnobodyis going to f*** with the original Coke ever again.Your fantasy that Fluke is just doddering along assembling meters that they don't understand from parts designed by long-gone engineers is, well....

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 06:17:39 am
content: I think Fluke charges 50% more just because of the Lifetime Warranty.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 08:22:44 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 13, 2021, 03:37:04 amYou've heard of Coke Zero, right? If we use "Fluke logic" Coke Zero shouldn't exist.Well, it exists and they've even reformulated it twice despite people saying they shouldn't:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola_Zero_Sugar#2017_reformulationWhy isn't Fluke doing anything like that?Quote from: bdunham7 on September 13, 2021, 03:37:04 amA "slight exaggeration"?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 03:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 13, 2021, 08:22:44 amSo what? A diet cola that doesn't compete with original Coke? I'm not sure what you are getting at. Overapplying analogies leads to silly results.QuoteYou said:Quoteand then quoted other comments about Fluke's possibly lacking the ability to make revisions. It's very possible that they don'twantto make revisions, but that is very different from not having the capability.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 04:25:20 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 13, 2021, 03:45:13 pmIt directly competes with original Coke. It's been the company's biggest growth product over the last few years.Quote from: bdunham7 on September 13, 2021, 03:45:13 pmThis is actually quite a good one.The reasons given for buying a drink that costs four or fives times more than a store brand are very similar to the reasons people give for buying Fluke multimeters: Brand familiarity, they want to know know exactly what they're getting, etc.Also: They didn't change their minds even after they chose the another brand in a blind taste test. People are stubborn that way.

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 04:38:07 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 13, 2021, 03:45:13 pmI think the Fluke 289, by far, is the best handheld DMM, others could be a little stronger, or had a better display (for outside use), but, summing up all the advantages, the 289 is excellent.They did a complete board revision 3 or 4 years ago and also fixed the super cap leaking. Maybe they are keeping like that up to some competitor to surpasses them, but up to now, all of them are runner-up, and seems most of the competitors will keep the handheld DMMs accuracy around 60k counts.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 04:38:53 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 13, 2021, 04:25:20 pmIt is easy to assign irrationality as the cause for others actions when you don't understand them, or try to apply a limited understanding and don't get the result you expect. What is really going on is that you simply don't understand the reasons for what you are observing. That applies to cola drinkers, politics and DMM buyers. And even if you studied it with some particular methodology, you still would only have a limited and likely flawed understanding. For me, Coke Zero "competes" with Diet Coke and maybe Diet Pepsi--I grab whichever one is there. Regular Coke isn't even a option I consider. I'm not a big consumer of it, but I would guess that most diet cola consumers act roughly the same. Perhaps I'm wrong.Read the new Brymen 789 thread. Then tell me how the typical meter-buyer's decision making process works.

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 04:48:22 pm
content: This "soda comparison" could be: Fluke 187 vs 189, 287 vs 289, and many other very similar models of DMMs, Clampers, etc.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 05:44:18 pm
content: Quote from: Trader on September 13, 2021, 04:48:22 pmThe point is that the market leader in drinks *does* try new formulas, even at the expense of their own products.The idea that Coke stopped innovating after the "New Coke" incident is ridiculous. At best it could be compared to the the 87IV when Fluke also retreated from a too-radical change.The 87IV R&D wasn't even wasted, Fluke rebranded it as the 187 and sold it for a number of years, it's still one of their most sought-after meters among people who really want a good meter.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 05:56:58 pm
content: Quote from: Trader on September 13, 2021, 04:38:07 pmDepending on your workflow and requirements, yes, it can do many things that most meters simply can't do.Other people might not need all the logging/analysis functions and prefer a simpler interface and crisper display.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 06:19:16 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 13, 2021, 05:44:18 pmYes it is. Who said that?

author: doppelgrau
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 06:47:06 pm
content: Fungus, I think you miss the fact, that buying a fluke 87V is in many cases the cheapest option. Not for you the hobbyist, but for a company.E.g. the maintenance electrician needs a new good DMM, either simply buy a fluke that fits the spec (or even the same as before), you can get it from a supplier already in your "list of authorized supplier", know where you can get it calibrated if needed, know all necessary certifications are met. So Spend 500$ in less than one hour, get the meter three days later.Or you can start searching for meters, make sure all required certifications are met, start the process to add a new supplier to the list, make sure you're calibration service also services this new meter, wait 6 weeks for the meter since the "new supplier"-setup took so long ...The amount of time invested was now way more expensive than that meter, and even than you might end up with a unhappy electrician (could be even more expensive).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 07:25:45 pm
content: This thread is just going around in circles, frankly it's starting to look like someone who is just trolling and not really listening to any of the replies.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 07:31:10 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 13, 2021, 04:38:53 pmI'll drink any one of them if available and I either need a caffeine boost (coffee tastes absolutely vile to me) or I'm craving the fizzy bite. Regular Coke tastes a bit too sweet to me and leaves a gross sugary film on my teeth, Coke Zero is very similar but without the icky film. I usually chose Diet Coke because it has the fizziness, a bit of caffeine and to me it tastes reasonably good but I am not passionate about it. I'm not fond of Pepsi, some people swear it tastes just the same but I find it tastes even sweeter than regular Coke.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 07:34:24 pm
content: Quote from: doppelgrau on September 13, 2021, 06:47:06 pmAt some point even "companies" have to realize that 100xFluke=$45,000 and 100xAmprobe=$17,000

author: doppelgrau
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 07:43:15 pm
content: Well, why should a chemical plant buy 100 of these, they need one or two for their maintenance electricians...

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 07:48:51 pm
content: Who mentioned a chemical plant? - what about a decent sized electronics lab.

author: doppelgrau
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 07:52:49 pm
content: As said from other before, electronic labs are not the (core) target group.More industrial application, that's also the reason why fluke offers DMMs that are ATEX (Zone 1 and 2) certified.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 07:53:26 pm
content: We had 2 or 3 Fluke meters at the last place I worked that did hardware, they were some of the cheapest tools in the lab. I think the HDMI analyzer I used regularly cost nearly $100k. 500 bucks for a meter is peanuts for a large company, you could easily spend more than that in a single engineer's salary searching for a cheaper meter. I don't really even understand the discussion of cost here, we're not talking a $20 tool vs a $20,000 tool, it's $450 vs maybe $250, that's nothing. And that's ignoring the fact that the slightly higher price buys you the reputation and support.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 08:14:46 pm
content: Quote from: doppelgrau on September 13, 2021, 06:47:06 pmAnd this is the crux of this biscuit.Fungus is a hobbyist.I've made that assertion a couple of times in this thread and he's never refuted it. It's good to see others acknowledge this.And he has been engaging the professionals for how many posts now about this nonsense? He's a troll, nothing more.Next.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 08:26:27 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 13, 2021, 07:34:24 pmI would be willing to bet that the main reason a company might switch to Amprobe, Greenlee or the like is that they are less attractive to thieves. Other than that, for an organization large enough to need that many meters, the money is peanuts considering the warranty and the perceptions of the employees--even if the devices themselves were actually equivalent.

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 09:00:00 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 13, 2021, 07:25:45 pmQuote from: james_s on September 13, 2021, 07:31:10 pmWTF

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 09:15:50 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 13, 2021, 07:34:24 pmI think the topic is about comparing the characteristics and features of some DMMs more expensive than a decent Scope.IMHO, an excellent brand DMM (Keithley, Fluke, Keysight, Gossen, Brymen, Chauvin Arnoux, Hioki) is ALWAYS cheaper than a Scope from another excellent brand. And a hobbyist brand Scope could be cheaper than an excellent brand DMM.So, this price inconsistency ($DMM > $Scope) is not related to the instrument, but the brand quality, like R&D, Components, References, Construction, Calibration, Safety, and Warranty like Fluke Lifetime Warranty and "indirectly" Keysight lifetime warranty, etc.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 10:45:06 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 13, 2021, 08:26:27 pmThat is a worthwhile advantage in many cases. I know guys who bought the Harbor Freight inverter generator instead of a Honda primarily because those Honda generators are so popular with thieves. I bought the generic storage cover for mine instead of the official one that is emblazoned with the Honda logo for the same reason.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 11:08:23 pm
content: Quote from: Trader on September 13, 2021, 09:00:00 pmSir, this is EEVBlog.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 12:39:16 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 13, 2021, 11:08:23 pmIndeed.The original issue is too simple: :-P- Top of the line of DMMs: Keysight 3458A @ US$12,000.00- Top of the line of oscilloscopes: LeCroy Labmaster 10-100Zi @ US$1,000,000.00 (?)

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 02:32:37 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 14, 2021, 12:39:16 amLabMaster 10-100Zi 100 is 100 GHz bandwidth and 240 GS/s sample rate, Long Memory – up to 1.5 Gpts/ChKeysight UXR1104A is 110 GHz, 4-channel, Max Sample Rate: 256 GSa/s, Max Memory Depth: 2 Gpts max, 200 Mpts standard, Minimum Rise/Fall Time: 5.6ps (10-90%), 3.9ps (20-80%)"The 2-channel 110 GHz model supposedly lists for around $1.3 Million", ">$1M for the 110 GHz versions. In general, 4 channel scopes are 20-40% more than their 2 channel counterparts."https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/uxr1104a-infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-4-channels-price/msg1839923/#msg1839923

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 02:39:48 am
content: I'll sell you any one of my personal oscilloscopes for $2,000,000.00 USD if it would make you feel better. Buyers choice. This week only, two for the price of one!! Buy now before supplies run out!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 03:42:24 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 14, 2021, 12:39:16 amHave we not beat the original issue to death by now? Is there anything more that can be added to it without just going around in circles? It's pretty typical for threads to wander off on tangents, as long as the original question has been answered I don't see the problem with it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 03:43:43 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 14, 2021, 02:39:48 amWow, not sure I can pass up a deal like that, just let me search my sofa for loose change.

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 04:54:28 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 14, 2021, 02:39:48 amI'm not sure about the scopes, but how much for your modified DMMs?Could you make a DT830 safe for 14KV?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 07:04:27 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 13, 2021, 07:53:26 pmThat's true, the cost is really secondary. The main point was why Fluke is so stagnated.Where's the meters that persuade people like me to part with $450? Why doesn't Fluke have any ongoing R&D?A refresh of the 87V every decade or so doesn't seem out of line, nor does a new model every now and again.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 07:07:13 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on September 13, 2021, 08:14:46 pmWas there anybody here who didn't know that?

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 07:48:13 am
content: The Fluke 87 is not made for high accurcy or the extra ranges a DMM could offer. It is bought for robustness and safety in every day work around mains voltage. It does the job well and there is little need to change much. So why change a product that still sells well and custumers want it that way - points to improve may be battery life or even more robustmess, if they find ways to do it. Why should they change Coco cola ?Fluke does have have other products too and they do bring out new ones too, just not a new 87 every year.For the sope and DMM it really depends on what you count as a decent one. For many jobs a $200 bench meter is well good enough, and there are a few for this price. The scopes much below the Rigol1054 are quite limited even for more hobby use.I still think that if you look at an entry level scope in the $400-600 range , you get quite a bit more hardware than in a comparable or slightly higher prices bench DMM (e.g. Sigilent 3045). Competition and the numbers made make some products quite cheap and others quite expensive.As far as I see it the market for budget bench DMMs is relatively small, as they have the handheld meters as an alternative.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 10:14:13 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 14, 2021, 07:04:27 amFlukedoeshave ongoing R&D. Have you not seen any of the new products they've released? Like the 377 FC or 378 FC? Or the PTi120? Or the 190 Series III?Now, those products might not be traditional multimeter products, but so what? Meters just don't need to be changed all that often. The things they need to do are well-defined and well-understood.QuoteThe meter we all know you love and crave, the 87V MAX, was released in 2019.The 279FC was released in 2016. The 787B and 789 were released in 2016.Fluke isn't stagnating. The nature of the market (particularly Fluke's) is relatively stagnant. What in the world would make you believe otherwise?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 11:39:23 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 14, 2021, 10:14:13 amNope. The Max no use at all to me, they reduced the diode test voltage to something tiny compared to the 87V.(As I said earlier: They'renotidentical electrical specs, which undermines the "Fluke 87V is untouchable!" argument)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 12:22:55 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 14, 2021, 10:14:13 amThe manual for those says (c) 2002https://dam-assets.fluke.com/s3fs-public/789_____umeng0400.pdfFluke's most recent meters might actually be the Asia-only meters. The manual for those says (c) 2014https://dam-assets.fluke.com/s3fs-public/151718__umeng0000.pdf

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 06:44:46 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 14, 2021, 11:39:23 amHence the grin ...

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 06:48:32 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 14, 2021, 12:22:55 pmReally? I didn't look at that. I went by the copyright on the datasheet, figuring that it was their advertising.The 279FC shows a March 2016 date in its manual, so my point remains standing even if the 787B and 789 are removed from the equation.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 07:35:03 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 14, 2021, 06:48:32 pmYeah, the thermal camera one is relatively recent.I remember the EEVBLOG thread on it so it's definitely not 20 years ago.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 08:52:50 pm
content: The whole FC line is fairly recent, I believe. Also, I think this is new-ish:https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/portable-oscilloscopes/mda-550Edit: And I intended to include this:https://us.flukecal.com/products/electrical-calibration/bench-multimeters/8588a-reference-multimeter

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 09:35:10 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 14, 2021, 08:52:50 pmYep, that's from their 190 Series III line, which is new.Fluke has several products that they've released in the last 3 years alone. So claims that Fluke is stagnant are just false. Their target market isnothobbyists, and never has been, that I'm aware of.Truly good companies find their market niche andstick with itfor as long as that market remains viable. This is what Fluke has done. It just happens that their niche (industrial and professional field workers) doesn't intersect the market that Fungus wants them to target. If hobbyists weren't so price sensitive, then a company like Fluke could target the hobbyist market. But the kind of support and quality that Fluke producescosts money, and that obviously has to be passed on to the buyer. That raises the price beyond what hobbyists will usually pay, so it's not surprising that there is no company with Fluke's reputation that plays in the hobbyist market.Keysight is the only company I can think of with anything like Fluke's reputation that even pretends to play in the hobbyist market, but even they don'treallyplay in that market, and Keysight's most recent actions with respect to individual buyers only underscores that. I think they target the educational market more than anything else with their low-end stuff.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2021, 11:49:21 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 14, 2021, 09:35:10 pmAs noted earlier: Fluke sells $100 meters with Fluke build quality and an ordinary "free from defects" warranty.How many people need Fluke 'support' beyond that level anyway?

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2021, 04:18:01 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 15, 2021, 11:49:21 amSo what? That obviously isn't the case foralltheir meters, is it? You're attempting to use exceptions to the rule as a substitute for the rule. Unless you're talking about the 107, those $100 meters are targeted at limited international markets, and clearly have very different terms of support. The 107 is $124 and there are a number of better-priced competitors with equivalent or better features and safety (for instance, the Greenlee DM-200A, which is clearly made by Brymen).You don't seem to understand thepurposeof the Fluke build quality. It exists for two reasons:1. To maximize customer satisfaction, which results in a minimization of after-sale support costs2. To maintain Fluke's reputationFor that reason, Fluke maintains their build quality even in their meters that they target at the limited markets that their $100 meters are targeted at.QuoteObviously enough that they dominate the industrial and professional field markets in large partbecauseof it. I can't say how often people in those markets wind up actually making use of Fluke's support, but if you're a business and you absolutely depend on a piece of equipment, the mereexistenceof that kind of support will be enough to make the premium price worth it. And in any case, providing such support does good things to a company's reputation, and Fluke knows this.If Fluke could get away with lowering their support terms without having any impact on themselves, they obviously would. They're a business, not a charity. They don't spend money that isn't ultimately in their own best interests. And providing exemplary support like they docosts them money. They recover those costs, with profit, by pricing their meters as they do and targeting the markets they do in the way they do.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2021, 04:25:12 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 15, 2021, 11:49:21 amWell, it's self-sorting isn't it? If you think the $100 meter is just as good and don't value a support promise, you can buy that. What is it you want? A meter 'better' than the 87V without the lifetime warranty for less money?Don't you already have that?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2021, 05:31:37 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 15, 2021, 04:25:12 pm(round in circles)The $100 meter is missing important features, Fluke carefully engineers it that way, you know it.Quote from: bdunham7 on September 15, 2021, 04:25:12 pmFrom other brands? Yes.You'd think Fluke would be interested in that market share, but nope.Whatever: Fluke will have to start playing the game eventually. Let's wait and see.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2021, 07:13:55 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 15, 2021, 05:31:37 pmOh yes, I forgot that part. So you think that the 17B+, for example, has all the mechanical and electrical robustness of the 87V and Fluke could just make a few tweaks to the firmware and maybe a few upgraded components ($20 tops, of course) and produce something superior--but they don't for strategic reasons. And that they will have to eventually because this segment of the market is vital to their future.Why don't we just agree to disagree on all that?QuoteReally? After the BM789 thread? Anyway, I was referring to your 89IV.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2021, 09:57:26 pm
content: Has it been mentioned yet that there is a service manual with schematics for the 87?https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1505585/Fluke-87-V-An.htmlTry fining one of those for a Bryman or other lower cost meter. A proper service manual for a tool I'm going to use potentially for decades is a substantial value, especially in this day and age where it's such a rare luxury. I'm willing to pay more for something that is meant to be repaired if it breaks.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2021, 03:45:53 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 15, 2021, 07:13:55 pmYep. (and also the $100 15B+...)Quote from: bdunham7 on September 15, 2021, 07:13:55 pmYep.Aneng can make anentire meterthat measures far better than a 17B+ (and even better than an 87V in some ways) for $20.Quote from: bdunham7 on September 15, 2021, 07:13:55 pmHuh? Facts is facts. Aneng exists, the 17B+ has been put through the wringer.Quote from: bdunham7 on September 15, 2021, 07:13:55 pmI was referring to my BM857s which is easily equal to the 87IV at measuring, but whatever.If I can get those meters for $160 then where's the amazing $450 meter? For $450 there ought to be something awesome out there, not just a meter designed 25 years ago.Heck, I've got a 40-year old meter (Fluke 8060A) that's better than the 87V at measuring stuff (eg. 200kHz TRMS).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2021, 04:06:27 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 15, 2021, 09:57:26 pmWhy would you need it? Don't Fluke just swap them with no questions asked?(That's if they ever break in the first place, which they never do...)

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2021, 04:24:56 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 16, 2021, 04:06:27 amNo, they often repair them. And there are scenarios that might not be covered by the warranty--and eventually the product goes obsolete and the warranty ends anyway. So many years from now the manual might be nice to have. There are multiple threads of people successfully repairing 30+ year old original 87 models.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2021, 04:45:09 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 16, 2021, 04:24:56 amThe Fluke 87V will go obsolete??

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2021, 04:50:29 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 16, 2021, 04:24:56 amI have lots of 20+ year old gear. I maintain all of my own equipment and I pick up the factory service manual whenever I can get it. It's a rare luxury these days, even a lot of the A-brand stuff doesn't give you that anymore. As long as I have parts available I can keep a piece of equipment working indefinitely. I really hate the disposable products that are so common today.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2021, 06:29:00 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 13, 2021, 04:38:53 pmSo, so, so true!!!This is the reason the traditional IT world, the stock market, and the media were/are always surprised by Apple’s success: they didn’t (and still don’t) understand the company and its customers, so they assign its success (erroneously) to “fashion” and “stupid” customers (i.e. exactly the “irrationality” you mention), despite all the clues that this isn’t the reason.What flummoxes me is that people won’t budge from their positions even if you provide incontrovertible evidence that either their core premise or their data is wrong. I mean, I certainly have strongly held opinions, but if the data clearly shows the contrary, then I reevaluate and change my opinion accordingly.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2021, 06:36:44 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on September 13, 2021, 07:48:51 pmElectronics labs definitely arenotthe target market for the Fluke 87.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2021, 06:43:02 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 14, 2021, 07:04:27 amAnd that meter is basically the 28 II, later also sold as the 87V MAX so people realize this.But they keep the original 87V around because it keeps selling. Does it even matter why? It does, and they don’t appear to have any trouble getting components to build them, so what’s the motivation to discontinue it? (Your offended sensibilities do not constitute a valid reason.)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2021, 11:58:52 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 16, 2021, 06:29:00 amWell there is an element of truth to that. Apple products are absolutely a fashion statement/status symbol for many of their customers, that isn't why *I* own some Apple products but clearly for many people it is. A lot of their customers are not particularly technical people and some of those are not necessarily very intelligent, but obviously that doesn't mean that all of their customers are. People have different reasons for choosing things, just like some people buy a Fluke because they think it makes them look like they know what they're doing.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 03:01:58 am
content: Quote from: tooki on September 16, 2021, 06:36:44 amWhile that might be true, one of my co-workers has an 87 on his bench. We're the R&D group. So I guess his bench is part of an electronics lab. (It's his personal meter, which he's had forever.)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 05:23:57 am
content: Quote from: tooki on September 16, 2021, 06:43:02 amI never said they should discontinue it, I'm wondering why they stopped evolving it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 05:44:42 am
content: Quote from: tooki on September 16, 2021, 06:29:00 amCome on. You can't deny that "fashion" exists or that Apple exploits it.Also that EEVBLOG #2 had Dave waving a Fluke 87V around. (EEVBLOG #1 was the Rigol DS1052E)Quote from: bdunham7 on September 13, 2021, 08:26:27 pm(emphasis mine)If people are thieving them it's because the covet the Fluke, not because they need the meter at home.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 07:03:12 am
content: I would argue that Apple doesn't follow fashions at all.Their devices look exactly how they want them to look, they don't give a crap about the latest fashions.Also, fashions change with the seasons, whereas apples devices change slowly and in small steps.One area where I would agree that the design is influenced by fashion is the watches. but they are much more of a fashion accessory as well as a tech gadget.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 07:07:51 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 17, 2021, 05:23:57 amIf you have any engineering background at all, you should know the answer to this.When you've got something that basically works, there are always far more ways to screw something up than there are to make it better. So why would you stop evolving something? Because you've gotten it to a state that any change you make to it will be more likely to make it worse at doing the job its market demands of it than to make it better.The 87V isverywell suited to its target market. Its sales should make that plain to you. When the 87V stops being that well suited, then Fluke will change it.That said, the presence of the 87 MAX suggests that Fluke may have decided the 87V has already reached that point, and decided to supply a tweaked 28 II as its successor. But the 87V will still be there because there will be lots of institutional customers that need to keep buying it. Fluke may as well continue to build it as long as it sells, no?So in light of the above, therealquestion is why you think the 87 MAX isn't a suitable successor for the market the 87V plays in, now that we've firmly established that you and hobbyists in general are not the target market for the 87V (hobbyists might purchase the 87V just like anyonecould, but that's not the market Fluke intended the meter for).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 07:55:27 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 17, 2021, 07:07:51 amIt's notmethat's saying that: We're now on the Nth page of a long thread of people saying the 87V can't be changed inanyway without losing customers, that there's all sorts of people out there whose training manuals and procedures depend on having thisexactmultimeter.The 87V Max isn't the same meter as the 87V, it's a rebadged 28 II that obviously only exists to suck in people who want a "Max" version of the 87V as some sort of fashion statement. Otherwise they'd just buy the 28 II, that's what it's for.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 08:05:11 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 17, 2021, 07:07:51 amDoes control engineering count?Quote from: kcbrown on September 17, 2021, 07:07:51 amUnfortunately for the Fluke fans I also have some imagination to go with my background:eg. How would making the backlight flash in the continuity test mode make the 87V any worse? Surely it wouldimprove safetyin noisy environments and/or when you're wearing hearing protection. Fluke's all about safety, right? Why couldn't they do that?(see my previous post for another dozen-odd suggestions to evolve the 87V without harming any "functionality")

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 08:48:51 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 17, 2021, 07:55:27 amThere's an assumption that I think we've been making with respect to your claim that Fluke should "change" the 87V. That assumption is that the 87V would bereplaced.Fluke has wisely elected to not take that path. Rather, what they've done is introduced what amounts to a new meter, while keeping the old one in production. But see below.QuoteThere are a couple of differences between the 87 MAX and the 28 II that make it clear they're not quite the same meter (darned close, though):1. The 87 MAX (at least in its sheath -- it may be more accurate to say its sheath here) is more physically robust and, per Fluke, is able to withstand a higher drop2. The 87 MAX measures capacitance down to 0.01nF, while the 28 II measures down to 1 nF (I actually wonder about this. The 28 II capacitance resolution is 0.01nF, so the stated specs may be incorrect here)Companies admittedly do play some marketing games like what you're talking about here, but frankly, this smells like it's driven more by Fluke's customers than by Fluke themselves. It could easily be that people within some institutional customers would prefer the 28 II and have told Fluke as much, but have been told by management that they can have only an 87 series meter. Fluke's move here could easily be to satisfy such buyers.

author: Synthtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 11:32:17 am
content: Kind on reminds me how important it was for Agilent/Keysight to make a replacement bench meter that was operationally compatible with the venerable 34401a just because it was such an entrenched industry standard that they needed to make it comfortable for a multitude of company’s and their employees to transition to a new meter without having to learn new ways of doing things that they had always done on an ancient meter that was so good that it barely needed replacing and so that they didn’t have to modify their procedures and custom software commands.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 04:26:18 pm
content: Quote from: Synthtech on September 17, 2021, 11:32:17 amAlong these lines, on my bench is a Stanford Research DG535 pulse generator, provided by a customer for testing one of our products prior to shipping.The silly thing is the same as it's been since, oh, the 80s? It still has a list price of over US$4200. It's based on a Z80 and other stuff of that vintage. (It even came with a manual and schematics.)Now Stanford has newer products in their catalog. There's a DG645 pulse generator which I'm sure uses much newer stuff inside, and it has an Ethernet port for control, in addition to RS232 and GPIB. And their catalog is actually quite deep.But they know the market for the DG535, and that market isn't particularly cost sensitive, and the product is probably designed into many test stations and other systems for which a change of pulse generator would incur a much greater cost than the price of the unit. So Stanford keeps selling it, and will continue to do so until there are no more orders. (I bet they've got a lifetime stock of parts, including the display.)You know, just like the Fluke 87.The 645 is the newer product with the features and improvements for which some customers were asking. Both co-exist in the product line for reasons explained ad nauseum in this thread!BTW: The DG535 is a perfectly nice piece of kit. It does what the manual says it should do. My only complaints: the user interface is a bit clunky, the fan is too loud, and the delay set-up for two of the four output channels isn't as obvious as you'd like.I mean, I could do a pulse generator in an FPGA and bolt on the various high-speed amplifiers to drive the outputs at variable voltage levels, but by the time I've designed it, verified its performance, and put it in a nice box with a power supply and user interface and display, well, I've already spent more than the $4,200 the product costs.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 04:30:04 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 17, 2021, 08:48:51 amWhat Fungus refuses to grok is that there is no penalty for Fluke to keep the 87 and the 28II in the product line, as long as both continue to sell. Oh, wait, that's because he's a hobbyist.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 04:51:26 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on September 17, 2021, 04:30:04 pmWho said they should take them out of the product line? Not me.All I wondered is why they stopped evolving them.PS: There's a 'penalty' innotselling to all those people who are currently buying Brymens, Amprobes, etc.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 06:24:41 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 17, 2021, 05:23:57 amSeveral reasons have been stated numerous times: 1. why change something that sells well? (It’s likely their bestseller.), and 2. many big customers will have procedures designed around a particular piece of equipment. The procurement contracts from those customers will stipulate long, long,longproduct availability. Think aircraft carriers: their useful lifespans span multiple generations of technicians. (And I mean literal “my grandpa worked on this thing for 30 years before I started” generations.) So the military contracts will literally stipulate that some parts and equipment will be availableunchangedfor 50 years. Aerospace, military, etc don’t want to take the risk, however remote, that some minor change in some piece of test gear results in measurements that are different in some rare edge case. The cost of failure is so enormous that the added cost of those extended availability contracts is worth it. And that makes them lucrative to companies willing to keep certain products on sale for a long, long time. For cheap (in absolute terms) things like multimeters, they’ll just replace them every so many years just to be on the safe side. This could meancontractually guaranteedsales of hundreds (if not thousands) of units per year for decades. But they can’t change the product, at least not without Herculean bureaucratic effort that may require the vendor to perform extensive recertification testing, and likely leaves them on the hook for massive liability if anything goes wrong due to the changed product.The upshot is that there are very, very sound reasons for not changing things. Especially for a product like a multimeter where “progress” doesn’t change anything: a volt is still a volt now, as it was 20 years ago. What makes a Fluke 87V a Fluke 87V is a particular combination of features and performance characteristics. For customers that want different combinations of features and performance characteristics, they sell different models.I think you really don’t understand that multimeters are mature products where there isn’t much serious innovation because italready happened. We figured out how to make each major type/performance class of digital multimeters decades ago. The effort required for 6.5 digit and especially higher meters is no smaller today than it was 30 years ago, because it’s the laws of physics that dictate that effort. It’s not like a computer or smartphone where each year brings a noticeable improvement in performance and features. Metrology of electricity had its era of discovery and core research a century ago; since the midcentury, its just been slow, iterative refinement. Yeah, we changed from analog to digital, and the devices got faster, but the measurements are the same, and the principles used to take those measurements are largely unchanged, too.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 06:44:33 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 17, 2021, 05:44:42 amOf course it does and of course they do. But my claim wasn’t that they don’t. My claim is that fashion isn’t what has made Apple the monstrously successful company that it is. Tons of companies have made “fashion” tech, but none — NONE — has come even distantly close to reaching Apple’s success. That’s because they were too niche/high end, or all fashion and no substance (bad tech, bad usability, etc), or didn’t have the right management to get it out at the right time and market it correctly. You have to get all of those things, and many more, rightpractically all of the timeto do what Apple did.The tech world (analysts, media, nerds, etc) have historically looked almost exclusively at feature lists and spec sheets as the only things to weigh against price, the result being how “good” a product is. They never understood the non-technical aspects of a product (and its ecosystem), which is the secret sauce that Apple understands uniquely well in addition to the tech. And by not understanding that, they remained (and continue to remain) in perpetual surprise that Apple not only did not go out of business (as they predictedad nauseamwell into the 2000s), but in fact outperformed everyone who was doing things the “right” way.Without the “secret sauce” (of which fashion is but a small part), Apple would never have been successful. But without the solid tech they wouldn’t have been successful, either, because that tech is the material with which the secret sauce is implemented.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 06:46:46 pm
content: Things have changed ( new parts available) for the 5 digit meters, which may be considerd mid range bench meters now: there are now several SD ADC chips available good enough for a 5, 6 digit meter and maybe even more. Similar the chips for the handheld meters are slowly changing from old style dual slope to sigmal delta. With newer / faster ADCs also digital RMS conversion is getting much more practical even at a lower cost. Besides the new chips, expired patents could be a factor too.So especially with the lower end bench meters with 4.5 to 5 digits the new meters can be quite a bit different than 20 or 30 years ago, and is today a bit easier to build one. It still needs stable resistors and suitable higher voltage relays and a good transformer - that part has not changed that much.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 06:55:13 pm
content: Quote from: Dubbie on September 17, 2021, 07:03:12 amFor sure. The watch is definitely the first true fashion item they’ve made. Apple has always employeddesignin its products, but fashion is quite another!As for not following fashions: definitely! The entire computer (and then phone) market has always copied, not led, Apple.(Apple adopts outsidetechnologyand concepts, but not outsidedesign: Yeah, Apple saw the GUI over at Xerox. But the only thing they “stole” was theconceptof the GUI. Apple’s implementation bears practicallyzeroresemblance to Xerox’s, and it’s Apple’s GUI paradigm that is now universal throughout all desktop OSes, not Xerox’s. Anyone who’s used any desktop OS from the last 30 years could sit down at a Lisa and be able to operate it. You’d have essentially no chance of succeeding on an Alto, as the fundamentals are so different.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 07:01:47 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on September 17, 2021, 06:46:46 pmIndeed! As I said: incremental refinement. They still need stable references, proper design (like for the high voltages you mention), etc. We can’t just throw more transistors at those aspects.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 07:37:00 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 16, 2021, 11:58:52 pmOne could argue that Apple productssetthe "fashion," rather than follow it.Exhibit A:Remember what smartphones and their user interfaces looked like before the first iPhone?And then what did they all look like about a year later?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 07:44:25 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 17, 2021, 06:24:41 pma) By that logic Fluke should still be selling the 27FM and the 87 should never have been developed.b) One thing is to continue to manufacture a legacy meter for a big $$$ customer, another thing is to keep selling the exact same old meter to the general public forever.c) The 87 series has already had big changes to operation and features over the years.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 07:47:13 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on September 17, 2021, 07:37:00 pmHuh?Remember theiPaq? Apple even stole the naming scheme.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 08:22:03 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 17, 2021, 06:44:33 pm"Holding it wrong", Bendgate, Apple keyboards... removal of USB ports and headphone sockets, etc. etc.The quest for thinness has done more harm than good from a functional point of view, thinness is 100% "looks" and "fashion statement".Fashion sells though, no denying that. Why else would people pay $250 for a pair of sneakers? People coveted Apple looks, Apple's packaging, the Apple stores, etc. Apple became a part of high street fashion in a way that nobody else was doing.Fairly equivalent look/feel laptops, etc., have always been available from other companies (eg. Dell, SONY) -ifyou were willing to pay Apple prices for them.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 09:21:23 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 17, 2021, 07:07:51 amYep.QuoteThey certainly should consider doing something like that for the 87 MAX, which is its successor. But it may be that they already considered that and decided against it.The only problem I can think of with respect to flashing the backlight is that it would make the meter unusable by some people with epilepsy.However, they could easily use a different color for the backlight to indicate continuity.I think you need to be careful about which meter you're talking about here. The 87V isn't really going to be a candidate for changes, because it's already been out for some time and so you've got all sorts of certifications and other things that depend on it stayingexactly as it is. It's difficult enough to change theinternalswithout breaking certain types of certification. The more certifications your product has managed to pass, the more risky it is to makeanychanges to it.That kind of lock-in is probably one of the major reasons Fluke released the 87 MAXwithoutdiscontinuing the 87V.It might not be too late for Fluke to make such changes to the 87 MAX, however.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 09:49:31 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 17, 2021, 04:51:26 pmWe need to beveryclear about what exactly is meant by "evolving them".For Fluke, especially with the 87V, "evolving" meansintroducing a brand new meter.So why don't they "evolve" their meters more quickly? That should be obvious: to keep their product line from ballooning, and to minimize customer indecision. They already have a rather large catalog of meters when all is said and done.QuoteBut there's also a penalty in selling to them. Those people arehighlyprice sensitive. If Fluke is to sell to them, thensomethingwill have to give. So what's it going to be? The build quality? The robustness? The support? The features? Well?Skimping on any one of those things will cost the company something. When you're in the position Fluke is in, reputation iseverything. There's areasonalmost all of Fluke's limited-warranty meters are sold by them to eastern markets only. The one exception that I've seen so far seems to be the 107, and that meter is the most basic meter they sell. It's priced high enough that I doubt people who buy Brymens and Amprobes, much less Anengs, etc., are the target market.And in any case, Amprobe and Fluke are owned by the same parent company. Why in the world would that parent company want Fluke to sell into the same market that Amprobe does?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 09:53:50 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 17, 2021, 09:21:23 pmSure, the word "flashing" was only a figure of speech. They could simply turn the backlight on when continuity is detected (or off if it's already on). The Hioki DT4282 changes the backlight to red but that seems overkill.Plenty of meters do this so I'm sure Fluke knows about it, including all the safety implications.The thing I really don't know is why they ignore it, hence this thread.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 10:01:33 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 17, 2021, 09:53:50 pmYeah, I don't know either. It seems like it would be a good thing for them to do.And it's not like Fluke isn't willing to try different things. Look at the wide variety of features available within their own line. The remote display, for instance, is something I've not seen elsewhere (but I'm no expert on what's out there, either).Companies can be funny about some of the decisions they make. For all we know, there might belegalreasons for it. I can't imagine what that might be, but legal systems are essentially arbitrary in what they allow and don't allow, and Fluke might have been burned by prior litigation that involved something similar to this.You could always call them and ask.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 10:11:05 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 17, 2021, 09:49:31 pmFluke already makes a $100 meter with the same build quality and robustness, it was the features that gave way.The elephant in the room is the 87V. Fluke can't make a cheaper meter with those features and nobody who isn't buying it for their job (I prefer that term instead of "hobbyist") is going to pay Fluke 289 prices for a multimeter.I've said before that I could probably stretch to 87V prices if the meter was compelling enough but it never will be, because... drumroll... the 87V is in the way, messing everything up.Solutions: Evolve the 87V a bit or introduce another line at the same price point. The other line will have to be better than the 87V so that causes conflicts, Fluke won't do it. The 87V can't evolve, we're stuck in an endless loop.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 10:20:16 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 17, 2021, 10:01:33 pmOther companies are more sensible and supply a matching bluetooth receiver. No need to go to all the mechanical trouble or expense of a detachable display.Quote from: kcbrown on September 17, 2021, 10:01:33 pmThey certainly might have big contracts that say they have to manufacture the 87V as-is even though plenty of things could be added without breaking any test procedures.That doesn't mean they can't have a "consumer 87V" alongside their "legacy 87V" though, even if it has to have a different model number like the "Fluke 92" to avoid corporate confusion.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 11:14:40 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 17, 2021, 10:11:05 pmWell, $124. The Chinese market meters don't count.And how many Brymen/Amprobe customers are going to buy the 107 when they can buy the equivalent from Byrmen/Amprobe for a little more than half that?QuoteThe 87V isn't really special in that regard. It's really most of Fluke's lineup that's like that. Fluke charges what they do because of the combination of features, robustness, support, and company reputation. They're a business. They charge what they canbecausethey can, and why wouldn't they? The profit they make goes towards a combination of R&D, growth, and shareholders. And keeping the shareholders happy ismandatoryfor legal reasons alone.QuoteYour mistake is in thinking that the 87V is in the way. It's not. The 87 MAX proves that. What's in the way is the combination of traits that makes Fluke meters what they are,including the company's reputation. Fluke doesn't explicitly target non-professional users because at least one of those traitsisn't important enoughto those users to persuade them to buy a Fluke for Fluke prices.QuoteWhy should Fluke introduce another line at the same price point? Who would buy it? Brymen/Amprobe buyers? Please. They'd just buy Brymen/Amprobe equivalents because the price would be drastically less. That leaves buyers thatwouldpay more, which thus means that Fluke would be completely justified in pricing it higher.And that's ultimately the point. This market that you think Fluke should sell intois fundamentally incompatible with Fluke's approach. I'm sorry, it just is. When the Fluke 287 (which save for the screen looks like a dead ringer for what you want), which has a real-world price of around $520 and is thus is about $100 more than the real-world price of the 87V, is too expensive for you whilst at the same time you claim that you'd buy the meter you pine for from Fluke at 87V prices despite the fact that Brymen would (if it doesn't already) make the same thing for at least $100 less, that's enough to make me think that you're not serious in your claim about buying a Fluke. You've shown your price sensitivity to be on the order of $100, andthatis why I think you won't buy a Fluke.Yeah, I could see you buying the Fluke if they were the only game in town for that type of meter, but they're not andthey never will be. Other manufacturers willalwayssupply the same capability for less because buyers like youaretheir market.Of course, only you really know you, so maybe you would buy a Fluke under the conditions you state. But I have good reason to be quite skeptical of that.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 11:29:18 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 17, 2021, 10:20:16 pmThis presumes that the range and signal integrity through barriers would be the same, and that the display will be put somewhere that it won't need to be robust. It also requires that the user pair their device to the meter. That's great when the meter is your meter, but when it's the company's meter and you just pick one off the shelf before heading out into the plant, it's easier, faster, and more reliable to just have the display be a part of the meter.QuoteIt's notjusttest procedures. You're presuming that certification is a results oriented thing. It's often not,especiallyfor government purchasers. Look at the FAA and how they do certification of aircraft. Look at the FDA and how they do certification of medical devices. Those certification methods govern not just how something behaves, buthow it's made. Manufacturers of such things can't changeanythingwithout prior approval at a minimum, and oftenre-certification.Now imagine that you have multiple such entities, each of which has their own certification standards, that you're selling your product to. You change your product and you'll be dealing with the above for several of them. The expense justisn't worth it, unless the change you're making is for liability reasons.QuoteThey could. Why would they? All they would do is shift some buyers over to their cheaper line. To attract the buyers you're talking about, Fluke would have to price the model competitively with other competitors that are already in the same space, like Brymen. Butthatmeans sacrificing one or more of the things I already mentioned, with the associated costs and risks of doing that.Of course, thereisone way that Fluke could pull it off. They could spin off a completely separate division with its own lineup, that would sell into these markets. Oh, wait, that's already happened! The division is called "Amprobe". Imagine that.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 06:19:24 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 17, 2021, 11:16:54 pmIs anybody forcing you to read this at gunpoint?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 06:33:13 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 17, 2021, 11:29:18 pmBy "test procedures" I meant end user procedures/manuals/training.Quote from: kcbrown on September 17, 2021, 11:29:18 pmFluke can easily do this. It's an ongoing process anyway, you don't just get a certificate and that's it for the next 25 years. They'll be testing parts, submitting samples from every batch they make, etc.Quote from: kcbrown on September 17, 2021, 11:29:18 pmThe Fluke brand could still carry a premium over Brymen - look how many people still come in here and ask if Brymen are any good.Quote from: kcbrown on September 17, 2021, 11:29:18 pmNope. $100 15B+ quality is fine, all is needs is the missing features. Given that I can buy a $25 meter with those features, it shouldn't cost much to add them.Quote from: kcbrown on September 17, 2021, 11:29:18 pmUmmm... Amprobe's "precision multimeter" line is made by Brymen.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 06:57:11 am
content: I bet Fluke would have plenty of buyers if they brought back a tweaked 187/189 at a reasonable price.eg. It'd sell like hot cakes for $350(and that'sstilla $175 premium over a Brymen).Why don't they do it? Corporate mentality would make them pitch it against the 289, not the 87V, and it wouldn't be a success at 289 prices.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 04:59:45 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 17, 2021, 08:22:03 pmPredictably, you retort with exactly the sensationalized “issues” that underscore my point: you don’t understand what makes Apple products sell.Some of those issues were neverrealissues to begin with (like bendgate, which did not happen except under severe abuse), others are legitimate design decisions (like getting rid of a headphone jack), and others are outright lies (getting rid of USB ports: every Mac introduced since mid 1998 has USB ports; remember, a USB-C portisa USB port).And while I actually think Apple has gone too far with thinness in some things, it’s not an entirely aesthetic decision as you claim. Thinness also means reduced weight, and that’s a seriously useful feature. My shoulders react very badly to weight, so every pound I can shave off my backpack is literally a huge relief. The fact that the weight of Apple’s mainstream laptops has dropped from 6.1lbs (when I got my first PowerBook in 2000) to 2.8lbs now is hugely helpful to me.Quote from: Fungus on September 17, 2021, 08:22:03 pmAgain, you’re literally provingmypoint: other companies try to copy the aesthetics of Apple products, but they do not achieve Apple’s success. Why? Because of the “secret sauce” I talked about. It’s NOT just aesthetics, it’s functionality, usability, customer support, and more. Apple gets the whole package right, and others don’t. And that’s why Sony (which arguably once had the “secret sauce” but lost its way) and Dell have both shrunk while Apple has exploded.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 05:10:10 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 18, 2021, 04:59:45 pmIf the device you want to use (flash drive, etc) isn't Type C, then USB-C port is just a useless hole, not a USB port.QuoteOffering a lighter alternative is great. Other manufacturers have them too. But Apple insists on moving 'forward' whether its customers want to or not. The reasons that they do so well (IMO) are that their products almost always at least nominally 'work' and their competitors either suck (Dell, HP) or lack any real imagination (Asus, Microsoft).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 05:13:39 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 17, 2021, 07:47:13 pmNo, you doofus*, Compaq copied Apple’s naming scheme. Apple introduced the iMac in mid 1998, upon which everyone went crazy calling their products iThis and iThat. The iPaq came out in 2000, years after the iMac had established the naming scheme. (Not that Apple was the first to use theiprefix, but they were THE ones to popularize it.ehad been the much more common prefix for “internet” until then.)*I’m resorting to name calling you because of the utter, sheer laziness of your response. Two minutes of googling would have shown you that your explanationcouldn’tbe correct.

author: justme1968
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 05:16:29 pm
content: just give it up to discuss with anyone that has such a short sighted view about apple. it is completely and utterly useless. they not even see where they went wrong.i once had a ceo of a software company tell me 'we are not apple' as an argument how ridiculous something was. instead he just proved how clueless he is about what makes apple tick and how a company that was nearly bankrupt revolutionized more than one area and became the most valuable company in the world. yes. indeed he is not apple and never will be.apple is not perfect. nobody is. but the combination of design, hardware and software into a unique product is special. in deed sony once had something similar the es series and especially some components that were japan only or some of the first vaio notebooks were also something special that is not available any more today.even if one is not apple, it can never hurt to try to learn from them.

author: justme1968
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 05:20:41 pm
content: we worked with the ipaq when it was still from compaq. but to compare it to an iphone is just ridiculous. they were slow, bulky, heavy and you had to use even bulkier sleves. yes, the iphone has the advantage of beeing a little later and the technology evolved. but i would say the ipaq was just a small step from other pdas like palm or zaurus, the iphone was a huge leap forward instead.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 05:21:31 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 17, 2021, 07:44:25 pma) Why do you think Fluke still makes the 27 II and 83 V?b) Why not sell it to the market if plenty of other customers want it too?c) It’s hadminorchanges (except for the 87 IV, which was such a big change they had to split it off as a new model entirely and bring back a more traditional one).What is wrong with you, dude? Why can you not accept that you are wrong on this issue and let it go? People have explained the reasons to you, and everyone else with two brain cells to rub together understands (or at least accepts) them. You, meanwhile, seem to think you’re smarter than the people running what is arguably the most successful company in their industry.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 05:23:22 pm
content: Quote from: justme1968 on September 18, 2021, 05:16:29 pm

author: sotos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 06:42:59 pm
content: Ummm... Amprobe's "precision multimeter" line is made by Brymen.What? Are you sure about that? Amprobe and Fluke share the same building, look at it in Google maps.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 06:50:20 pm
content: Quote from: sotos on September 18, 2021, 06:42:59 pmAmprobe is owned by Fluke, or at least by their parent, Fortive. I believe that Fluke is the single largest importer of Brymen-manufactured products into the US.Thus my previous attempt at humor:

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 07:15:34 pm
content: Quote from: sotos on September 18, 2021, 06:42:59 pmYes.I haven't looked if any of Amprobe's other meters are Brymens but theAM140A and AM160Adefinitely are.Edit:This looks like a Brymen as well.PS: The 87V doesn't have a %4-20mA function. Isn't that something every "Industrial Multimeter" should have?

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 07:59:39 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 18, 2021, 06:33:13 amI suspected that's what you meant.QuoteThere are likely to be some institutional buyers that would require periodic samples and such. But that's very different from having to go throughrecertification. Recertification due to changes you make means youcannot sellto that customer until the customer has completed their certification process.And recertification incurs costs on the part of the customer, so thecustomerhas lots of reasons to be annoyed with you if you unilaterally change things up,even if the user wouldn't see the changes.QuoteAsking questions isn't anything like plunking down actual money for product. The buyers we're talking about have shown themselves to be price sensitive enough that theywouldn'tconsider a Fluke unless it was either price-competitive or offered capabilities the competition lacked. Those buyers look forvalue, and quite obviously don't give a flip about reputation. Why do you think they buyAnengandUni-Tmeters when they don't need the safety features of the likes of Brymen?So no, Flukecannotcharge a premium inthismarket and get anything like the kind of sales you think they'd get.QuoteSupport is one of the things I mentioned, and that is what they would have to sacrifice if they don't sacrifice anything else.That $25 meter might have the features but it doesn't have the same type of design or quality. Remember that quality isn'tjustabout toughness and all that, it's about longevity as well. That $25 meter may have the features but the way those features are implemented might not last the way Fluke meters do. So Fluke can either sacrifice longevity (particularly in the face of hard use), thus damaging their reputation, or they have to undergo the development and testing expense to ensure proper part selection and proper design around it. And thatadds to the cost.QuoteBut that's just Amprobe's "precision multimeter". Amprobe has many more meters in its line than just that. And even if Amprobe is sourcing from other manufacturers, so what? It's theexistence of their linethat matters here. The point is solely that Amprobeisthe "Fluke" division that offers the meters you pine for.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 08:18:28 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 18, 2021, 07:15:34 pmYep, it's a BM806shttps://brymen.eu/shop/bm806s/

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 08:34:44 pm
content: Just looking at Amprobe's "Industrial Multimeter" section.They seem a lot more "industrial" than anything Fluke has to offer, both in their safety ratingsandfeature set.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 11:05:33 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 18, 2021, 08:34:44 pm"Industrial" covers a lot of ground, and Amprobe's industrial line only has two meters, neither of which approach some of the capabilities of many of Fluke's offerings save for their CAT rating (which is better than anything Fluke offers that I can tell).I don't know what features the HD160C offers over and above what Fluke offers, save for its 1500V upper limit.In any case, since Fluke and Amprobe are owned by the same company, you probably shouldn't be surprised when a meter from one those divisions has a capability or two not found in one from the other. I would have expected Fluke to have the upper hand on the maximum safety rating here, admittedly.Large companies with subsidiaries sometimes do strange things.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 11:30:57 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 18, 2021, 11:05:33 pmNot "over and above", "better aligned with". I'm not an industrial electrician, admittedly, but the feature set and dial layout fits well with my mental image of "electrician".There's also the IP67 rating which most of Fluke's meters don't have (is it only the 28II/87V Max that have IP67?).Quote from: kcbrown on September 18, 2021, 11:05:33 pmNope. Even Budget-conscious Brymen makes higher-rated meters than Fluke. This is yet another thing I fail to grok when I see the height of the pedestal the Fluke meters are placed on WRT safety - higher standards exist but Fluke doesn't doesn't do them.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2021, 01:23:50 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 18, 2021, 11:30:57 pmIt's interesting that you say this, seeing how you seem to have a problem with Fluke making AC volts the default on the 87V, and yet that's exactly what we'd expect electricians to use the most, no?In any case, we can speculate as to which meters tend to be better suited for industrial use, but the plain fact is that neither of us are in that market, so neither of us really knows what that market really needs. Obviously the Amprobe meters and the Brymen meters have these higher CAT ratings because there's a market for that, but whether or not that market is large enough that Flukeshouldbe pursuing it is a question that only Fluke is likely to know the answer to.QuoteRight, most don't seem to have it. I haven't gone to look at which ones do. Therealquestion is how necessary it is for the markets Fluke plays in.QuoteIt appears that Fluke has been eclipsed with respect to the ratings, but how much that translates to actual safety in the field is a different question. Fluke's reputation has been built on the experiences of their customers. Is that reputation overblown? Maybe. But doubtful. Now, whether that means that meters from their competitors are worse is a very different question, and I expect that the answer is "it depends".Either way, Fluke seems to be doing things well enough to at least keep their reputation intact. How much that matters depends on the customer.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2021, 05:57:57 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 19, 2021, 01:23:50 amFrom a safety point of view it's the worst option because a DC current will show 0.0A on that range and no indication that anything is happening.If the defaults to DC you'll see 0.0A and a moving bar graph, not ideal, but abitsafer.The 100% correct answer is to default to displaying DC+AC (or auto-detect AC/DC if you don't have dual display) but guess what the 87V doesn't do...?Quote from: kcbrown on September 19, 2021, 01:23:50 amGiven Flukes target market? They should go for the highest rating possible. You'd think the 87V "Max" would have been a good opportunity to go for maximum CAT rating, but nooooo.PS: This is from Fluke's web page today.Also: Audible input alerts only (no visible ones) is not the "highest" standard.Quote from: kcbrown on September 19, 2021, 01:23:50 amFluke is running on inertia right now. Inertia and government/corporate purchasing contracts.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2021, 06:17:25 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 19, 2021, 01:23:50 amElectricians almost never break a circuit and insert the meter to measure current, I can't think of very many situations where that would be the preferred method. They will almost exclusively use a clamp on current probe which uses the AC V range on the meter. Frankly the fact that it defaults to either one every time is one of the only real flaws in the 87, if it just remembered the last setting that would be perfect.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2021, 02:31:55 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 19, 2021, 06:17:25 amThere's not many excuses for big currents but sometimes you need uA, eg. Fluke makes a meter thatonly measures up to 600uA(it's only CAT III 600V though).I like that the Amprobes only go up to 2A. That will remove a lot of temptation at least.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2021, 02:44:48 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on September 19, 2021, 01:23:50 amAnecdote is not evidence.Quote from: kcbrown on September 19, 2021, 01:23:50 amOn what would it depend?Fact 1: Amprobe's industrial range of meters has been certified to 12000V by the same people that certified Fluke's safest meters to only 8000V.Fact 2: Joe killed an 87V with 12000V and atinyamount of energy, nowhere near the energy of a full CAT rating test. That was after another 87V died in his hands at a much lower voltage.(lines 40-42 of the spreadsheet:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cXzYpIoyVm9QJUju4KXqM22CEQZP3_xwWvDyeVwxTy4/edit#gid=400910915)OK, the CAT rating systemdoesn'tsay that a meter has to survive a transient intact and I don't know what happened to the Amprobes, it's not looking good for Fluke on paper though.Edit: I'm told that Fluke and Amprobe are the really same company and make their meters in the same building. High voltage meter testing facilities are expensive so you'd imagine they'll be sharing a single testing facility across all the product lines, ie. the exact same people are doing the CAT testing for both brands.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2021, 03:21:13 pm
content: Going back to the original topic, I don't think the low end market for lab equipment is always completely efficient, look how long it took for a low end power supply with a decent UI to hit the market (shame it lacks a linear post-regulator).Sure anyone serious about it can hunt around for a second hand big brand or get siglent/rigol, but I think there is still some pent up demand for lower end waiting for the right Chinese company to profit from. Vichy gets to keep the market for itself, not because there are economic reasons for it but just because of good luck.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2021, 05:29:13 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 19, 2021, 02:44:48 pmYou seem fixated on these issues. I do see some odd issues in the ratings attached to some products-for example the 114-117 range is CAT III/600V but they do not specify it as CATIV/300V even though it might appear that the second rating would be automatically included. I don't know why, perhaps there's some technical issue or perhaps they just decided to do that for other reasons. Fluke doesn't put CATIV/1000V on any meters, not even their TL175 test leads. Why? Maybe they are very conservative or maybe their stuff is outdated junk. I don't know. But since the ratings are more than sufficient for any conceivable use I would run into, I don't worry about it.joeqsmithhas been very clear that his tests do not parallel the CAT safety tests.QuoteIf there are Fluke and Amprobe meters being made in the same building, it is probably in a Brymen factory in Taiwan.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2021, 08:22:54 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 19, 2021, 05:29:13 pmOnly because I keep getting told that "safety" is one of the reasons that Flukes cost more.Quote from: bdunham7 on September 19, 2021, 05:29:13 pmI'm not sure why there isn't automatic equivalence, there must be something else going on in CAT ratings apart from raw voltages.The CAT rating spec isn't publicly available to read, it's pay-per-view and quite expensive.The last page of this document is interesting:https://content.fluke.com/promotions/promo-dmm/0518-dmm-campaign/dmm/fluke_dmm-chfr/files/safetyguidelines.pdfIn Fluke's world CAT IV 1000V doesn't even exist!

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2021, 09:16:45 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 19, 2021, 02:44:48 pmA large enough collection of anecdotesisevidence for the purposes here. It's what buildsreputation. Reputation isn't something that's measured in a lab, it's the result of customer experience built over long periods of time.QuoteMainly on the difference between tests and the real world. Surely you know there's a difference, no?QuoteYes, the meter died under those conditions. But that's not whatsafetymeans. In the real world, safety means that the meter doesn'tharm you or anyone else.QuoteAmprobe existed as a separate company prior to its acquisition. Maybe they make some of their meters in the same building as Fluke and maybe they don't. No idea. Either way, Amprobe would likely have had its own testing facilities prior to acquisition. It's entirely possible that those facilities were retained. So are they being tested in the same facility? No idea on that either.