HP 54600B 100 MHZ Oscilloscope - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Jebnor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 05:16:06 am
content: I have the opportunity to by an HP 54600B 100Mhz for about $200US. I'm fairly new to this type of test equipment. Is this a reasonable price for this equipment? The 54600A 100MHz is $250. Would it be worth the extra $50? I can't seem to find the difference between them.

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 06:00:50 am
content: From what I have seen 546xx series isn't very well thought of. Frankly the price seems a bit high. I have seen them go on ebay for significantly less, especially if you are patient and watch around.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 06:10:25 am
content: A bit more spent wisely will get you a perfectly good and modern Rigol with 50 or 100 MHz BW, better sample rate, more memory and a warranty.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 08:37:47 am
content: Quote from: Jebnor on July 08, 2013, 05:16:06 amThey are nice to use and UI etc are well designed and nearly totally free from bugs. (typical for old HP test and measurement equipments before time of Cara Carleton Fiorina catastroph)But they are old. Next failure, if not PSU, is perhaps NVRAM. (if not yet changed)Then it is good to note: They are designed for repetitive signals!Single shot real time: they are barely around 2 - 4MHz oscilloscopes and becouse small sampling buffer they drops even this low samplerate very fast after go to lower than most high horizontal speeds).(real time samplerates 10 and 20MSa/s!(In HP546xxx series there is also other kind of scopes, still work horses for many use... but these lowest models. They can do all things what they can(also least some B model have "Eastern Egg" (Tetris game) but this is other story.)Nearly same price you can get this Rigol DS1000E series scope with tiny display and poor UI. (poor UI specially becouse CH1 and CH2 have shared adjustments - really crap designh in this point and without any real reason but save few yuan)Nearly same price you can get more new and some amount better Siglent and what building quality is least same or better than Rigol DS1000E. Buyt if you look what is morre famous, of course it is Rigol. Becouse time when it come with designed hackability to markets it really very quickly became very popular. And becouse it, you may get 100:1 voices for Rigol if you ask it in "Rigol fan club".2M memory (it affect also to sampling speed -look sampling speed tables and not only "up to" rates. Example 1us/div Siglent 250MSa/s and Rigol 100MSa/s),better (bigger) display,separate knobs for adjustments.True dual timebase ALT mode.6M extra memory for slow speed recording etc.Real non-glossy glass over TFT surface. (flying solder and flux etc)Very low acoustic noise level. (big slow speed fan)Spare parts easy available if example out of warranty selfmade damage.(partially listed in Service manual)Also Siglent have fast developing they direct after sales customer service better what it have been (in history).Siglent is much more new than DS1000E. FW may still have some more bugs that this older Rigol. But, all know that today Siglent also upgrade FW's and they are directly downloadable from Siglent download center. This comment is valid only for Siglent brand labeled and only for NEW versions HW 11.. and FW 5...

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 09:25:57 am
content: Quote from: Jebnor on July 08, 2013, 05:16:06 amI've paid it around 60€, for 2 pieces 120€

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 09:47:09 am
content: No, don't buy it.Only 20MS/s and 4K of memory.Makes it pretty much useless by modern standards.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 12:31:33 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 08, 2013, 09:47:09 amNot useless, but only a little more useful than a "free" (i.e. something someone is throwing out) analogue scope, and really not worth $200. $100 maybe if you can't get anything else.The slightly later ones that look very similar, inclusing the 54645D MSO are a lot more useful

author: elliott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 12:46:17 pm
content: Does this one have a non-storage mode like my Tek 2221A has? I can't find any mention of it.Right now I'm not using the storage function of mine very much, but if I start needing them more and see the need to upgrade, I can just leave it in non-storage mode and still have a nice analog scope. If this HP does that, then it could be worth getting, but not at $200, I gave $40 for my Tek.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 01:17:16 pm
content: Hold it. There is misinformation in this ropic ! And lots of it !The 546xx series is partitionable in two families :The Megazooms and the non-megazooms.The 54600 is a non megazoom. This 100MHz scope actually subsamples. Thus, like someone said, only good for repetitive signals. But, the subsampling happens only at fastest timebases. The sampler runs at 60Ms/s. so for a 20Mhz signal you can do non rpetitive. (Albeit with low resolution)These machines have limited memory.Later on came the megazoom 546xx series. Like the 54645a and 54645d and 54621d and 54622The 62x are the sucessors to the 645 and even have a dloppy drive to store settings and screenshots.Those machines are fast and have deep memory. The 54645D is a mixed mode machine with 2 analog and 16 digital channels having 4 megapoints of memory. When that thing was introduced early 90 it was a game-changer. Nobody had a mixed signal scope , that fast, that deep and in such a light and small form factor !The 645 still fetches easily 1000$ on ebay. The 621 well above that.These machines are bulletproof. No software bugs , no glitches, instant respons. They do what they are supposed to do.The 62x series uses flash rom and firmware can be updated. Last update throws in all options without requiring the expansion card, but you loose the games.Various machines have various games. They all have the 'badger' screen which shows a lissayous drawn picture of a badger (the internal codename for the megazoom project) and a list of the names of the designers of hard and software.Some scopes have tetris, some have arkanoids.Common failures in these machines are the novram (dallas chip) , the vertical deflection capacitor (shrunk vertical image) and graphics sync loss.The first two problems are easily fixable. The last one is game over. On some it is the ttl chip on the main board driving the display that fried. On some there is damage beyond the ttl chip in the asic. I suspect this damage happens because of flashover coming from the display. They use hitachi monitor modules. These run off 12 volts and make their own high voltage... During powerup powerdown i suspect once in a while there is a jolt... If you find one on ebay with a picture of the flyback lines visisble : that's that problem.Now, can they compare against a rigol. The non megazooms definately no. Unless you look at price. You can sometimes find those for 50$....The 645 and 621d (the mixed signal machines). This becomes trickier... If you can score a 645d for a few hundred $ ( up to 400$) that works, or a fixable one. I'd go for it (if i wouldn't have a scope)The 645d is a fenomenal fun machine to use. I still have one at work and it is still being used whenever we got one of those annoying mixed signal problems to debug where 4 channels just doesn't cut the mustard. Like vsualising the spi data in sync with the dac output and some other signals.It'll finally get replaced when my MSO4000 series comes in.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 01:42:41 pm
content: Quoteand some simple PSU faults :http://www.home.agilent.com/owc_discussions/thread.jspa?threadID=17441&tstart=0

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 01:57:43 pm
content: the internal costruction of the 54xx series is just pornographic.Everything is super high quality (excluding the power supply)The keyboard board has a super thick gold plating, and the front panel in made in some damn fantastic to wash plastic.This things when you wash it became as new!

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 01:59:05 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 08, 2013, 01:42:41 pmAnd the damn fu***** electrolitic cap in the power supply, and the iec filter

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 02:03:46 pm
content: Do any of you have experience with displaying complex waveforms, like an AM modulated RF carrier, on the 54645D? I may have overlooked the info in the documentation, yet have been unable to determine if this scope has intensity graduation and 'digital phosphor' (or something similar by another name).

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 02:11:54 pm
content: I don't think, but i've used for too short time before the power supply catch fire

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 02:19:36 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on July 08, 2013, 02:11:54 pmOuch and thanks. Suspected that was the case, but nice to know for sure.Hope you were unharmed.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 05:03:39 pm
content: Quote from: ElectroIrradiator on July 08, 2013, 02:03:46 pmNo it doesnt - it has deep memory but no intensity stuff - that was the domain of very expensive TEKs at the time those HP's came out

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 05:36:46 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 08, 2013, 05:03:39 pmThanks, appreciate the confirmation. I recently saw a photo, which had me wondering.Guess this means you still need either a 20+ year old analog scope, or one of the latest DSO models, if you want this feature in the home lab at a reasonably high BW.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 09:36:37 pm
content: Quote from: ElectroIrradiator on July 08, 2013, 02:19:36 pmBoth me and the scope are fine. I was repairing the p.s. When i shorted 150v, but this is another story.But the scope is fine...

author: skipjackrc4
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 10:03:57 pm
content: I've got a 54600A. While the sample rate and memory make it nearly useless for any non-periodic signals, the thing is a joy to use. Very responsive, clean and simple interface. It's my favorite scope to use, I just don't get to use it often.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 10:34:37 pm
content: 54600A was a great scope in early 1990s. It was quite expensive... But it definitely has short memory and only 20Msa/s ADCs. Tektronix came up with 1GSa/s per channel in 1996 in their TDS220.HP 54600A has one advantage, it has cursors in XY mode. But only few people need it.

author: Deckert
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 10:54:46 pm
content: I picked up the HP 54602B for about $150 and couldn't be happier. It's a 4-channel scope and I've been able to use it to repeat all the experiments that Dave's been doing recently during Fundamentals Friday. It works well and the display update rate is extreme - to the point that it displays Youscope as if it's an analogue 'scope in dot mode. The 'scope is definitely fast in all aspects of it's operation.I did a short overview of it here:http://www.cube.co.za/~tva/workbench/hp54602b/index.htmlI also have a 100MHz Atten/Siglent 1GSa/s 'scope and there is very little I could not do with the HP. It's IMHO a good replacement for the ubiquitous 20MHz analogue 'scope. The biggest downside was that I could not easily capture screenshots to disk without an elaborate SLR setup involving a light cone.Having said all the above, I agree with the above posts in terms of single-shot performance and with only 2 channels won't pay more than $100 for the 54600B.--deckert

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 11:15:52 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 08, 2013, 01:17:16 pmI've got a HP 54601A with the vertical display shrunk to a third of what it should be. Do you have some useful info on what to look for when I open it up?

author: skipjackrc4
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 11:26:34 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on July 08, 2013, 11:15:52 pmI had this problem on mine. There is an electrolytic cap in the display circuitry that will be bad (mine was bulging). I don't remember more than that--it was at least 5 years ago.

author: Lawsen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2013, 12:37:01 am
content: I liked the HP-54504A and its single knob user's interface. The HP-54504A is a very dated oscilloscope. I use my Rigol 1052E more than the HP-54504A. I find the Atten wide screen oscilloscope more useful and priced the same as the HP-54504A. If you bought an HP-5450x, then keep it and use it. If you have not, then forget about, unless there is something you like about that vintage of HP (Agilent) digital oscilloscope and get a Rigol 1052E or an Atten. Agilent DSOX are good, but I did not like the delicate plastic door for the probe storage.

author: xchip
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2013, 10:26:52 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 08, 2013, 09:47:09 amBut Dave, before answering we should ask him what range of voltages/ frequencies does he plan to work on! Maybe it's good for the type of stuff he's trying to do!Cheers!

author: MetraCollector
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2013, 10:58:21 am
content: Gentlemen, but what about lifetime ? Rigol works 2 years, then there is a likehood you can throw it to trash.HP machine can work 20 years non-stop, I recommend looking for 400MSa/s and 1GSa/s models. I have HP 54502A machine and it is absolutely worth the price, I do not regret the money invested (about 250€). It has instant response, inuitivie interface and it is reliable. I was lucky I got an unit that was rarely used regarding to not-burnt CRT.When I have to work with Rigol at school, I rather throw that crap out of window.

author: douglasgb
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 23, 2013, 04:27:26 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on July 08, 2013, 11:15:52 pmIt's the two in the upper left corner of the CRT board; C608 (1000uF 16v) and C609 (10uF 16v). I replaced mine with 25v caps and it did the trick.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2013, 07:49:14 pm
content: Quote from: douglasgb on October 23, 2013, 04:27:26 pmThanks, I fixed it a couple of months ago and forgot to update this, however on mine it only needed the 10uF changing.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2013, 01:52:09 pm
content: Scope with dick.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2013, 09:45:54 pm
content: thanks, both i and the power supply.i've a big fat red button that shut off everything.