JBC T210-A (and PA120-A) handpiece compared to some other tools - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jahonen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2012, 04:21:51 pm
content: Hello,I have been looking for a small soldering iron for a precision work. I got a chance to try out JBC DD-2B station (the one with possibility to connect two tools) with T210-A handpiece with some tips and I was pretty much positively impressed (or should I say amazed!). It feels pretty much like a pen with some wire at the endAlthough the power is just 25 watts, it seems at least as usable as Weller WSP 80 (which has 80 watts heater) for most SMD soldering tasks I tried. Tight integration of the tip to heater works wonders. Here are some comparison pictures:I was also amazed by the performance of JBC PA120-A precision tweezers. They are a proper size for something like 0603/0402 components (but seem to work for bigger components too by changing suitable cartridges, too) and very lightweight. Many other manufacturers seem to make those huge and clunky ones which are next to impossible to fit on a SMD component on the bottom of a narrow "canyon" without burning everything else next to it during soldering. Those tasks which were quite PITA before, were a breeze with PA120-A. Here is the scale for your reference:My only complaint is really that JBC tools are somewhat obscure here in Finland, unlike Weller which you can buy from just about any grocery storeHope this small experience helps if somebody else is wondering about this.Regards,Janne

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2012, 04:28:47 pm
content: JBC is a proffesional brand. We use those in my company. It's really confortable and doesn't make my hands tired. Very light and small pen. And tips with integrated heater which makes them heat up really fast. They are also long lived even considering 24/7 use.But... Simple station costs ~$1.6k. By my standards not worth it for amateur/light proffesional use,.

author: jahonen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2012, 05:08:49 pm
content: Well, it of course depends what you mean by "simple station". I think they are not so expensive if you look at the JBC price list (in euros):http://www.jbctools.com/pdf/brochures/tarEng.pdfRegards,Janne

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2012, 05:12:11 pm
content: I have the JBC CD-1BB compact station it was $390.00 UShttp://www.janelonline.com/product-p/jbc-tools-cd-1bb.htmIt has the 245 handle which is still light as a large pen. I is truly a dream to solder with. It has the same or better thermal response as a Metcal but totaly adjustable temperature. Heatup time from cold is rediculously fast. and tip change takes about 3 seconds and you never touch the tip. I personaly would not worry about a two output unit. there are plenty of very small tips for the 245 handle that will allow you to do the small work but then you can just stick a heavy tip in when necessary and have 130 watts of instantaneous power at your disposal.Check out this video of mine using the very wide tip on the 245 handle. The temperature setting on that tip is only 260 C to not shift the resistance of the resistors from overheating. No other iron has the thermal response necessary to solder that much area that fast at so low of a temperature.You will never be the same after JBC

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2012, 10:42:06 pm
content: Ya, but if you add all import duties, vat, reseller's share etc you get twice the price in US. While guys from western europe ("old" European Union) and scandinavian countries can still afford that, just qualifying as 'expensive', for us, living in poorer part of the EU these prices qualify as 'prohibitive'. I really look forward to a day when a cheapest chinese oscilloscope won't cost over 1/3 of my monthly net sallary :/

author: zaoka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2012, 03:34:05 am
content: I have AD4300 and AD2700, JBC is way ahead of all stations that I had chance to use.

author: grenert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2012, 05:52:03 am
content: If I didn't already have so much invested in Metcal tips, I would definitely be tempted by the JBC.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2012, 06:11:00 am
content: QuoteDon't compare the "wattage" with any other iron. JBCs have incredibly FAST power delivery, which really negates any comparison.We have just about every model / station / tip including a few HDs, which are mind blowing fast. Even set at 380c 150W with a 22mmtip, we solder wide copper earth straps to 5kgm transformers as fast as you can move them. Warm up time is 10 sec.Switch to tweezers pencil and I'm pulling out 0805s from multilayer PCBs. Never looked back.

author: jahonen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2012, 11:46:06 am
content: Quote from: digsys on July 27, 2012, 06:11:00 amI think this was the idea I tried to say, but you said it more clearlyI wonder what is the typical power actually needed into a solder joint itself, it must be quite well below iron rating. A key thing is to couple the heat into the joint as efficiently as possible.For my work, having a normal iron and tweezers is a must, since I often must lift and swap SMD components back and forth during prototype testing along with normal soldering tasks. Those PA120-A's had no problem with components attached to ground planes of a multilayer board, and I tried some very hefty PCB's (although not with particularly thick copper but thick enough to cause problems with wimpy soldering tools), too.I think I have my mind "poisoned" already from that JBC experienceRegards,Janne

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2012, 12:47:27 pm
content: Quote from: jahonen on July 27, 2012, 11:46:06 amLike I said, You will never be the same after JBC

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2012, 02:06:23 pm
content: Quote from: jahonen on July 27, 2012, 11:46:06 amWhen I train people on new jobs, I set the temperature to JUST above melting point (~10o), make an estimate ofpower required (60-150W, rarely ever needed 250W) and select an appropriate tip (awesome range). Then "tweak" the Tempand Power for perfect CONSTANT delivery. I believe they use a high frequency energy transfer system that just doesn't quit.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2012, 02:20:57 pm
content: AFIK Metcal is high frequency induction principle and the curie effect. JBC is just a resistive element but the elementISthe thermcouple also. That gives no Thermal lag in the temp sensing of control loop so they can hammer the thing without loosing control.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2012, 02:35:05 pm
content: Quote from: robrenz on July 27, 2012, 02:20:57 pmOK, my mistake, mixed up the details. From their specs -QuoteWe also have a Metcal. The only tech that liked it, croaked and no-one else uses it.

author: janelonline
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 27, 2012, 06:32:54 pm
content: We are an authorized distributor specializing in soldering products and materials. We came across this blog and we thrilled that you all seem to like JBC Tools as much as we do. We've been an authorized distributor for over 12 years - and in this time, we have not seen many soldering stations come close in comparison to JBC.To address one concern mentioned: From our prices on-line one can easily see we do not pass duties and taxes on to import any JBC product from Spain. And not to sell just ourselves on here - most distributors don't. Prices of JBC Soldering stations are extremely fairly priced.We also offer a 30 day demo trial with confidence that once you try a jbc soldering station you won't want to give it back!For more information:http://www.janelonline.com/Articles.asp?ID=370http://www.janelonline.com/jbc-tools-soldering-line-s/811.htmSome other reasons we believe JBC is a strong station to buy: low temp soldering, read and feed, initial heat up, outstanding tip life, quick change over tips, great design, process control, intelligent heat management, easy calibration, and improved productivity. with just 2 seconds to heat up and with jbc tools efficiently capable of soldering at 350 degrees C - why wouldn't someone what to use JBC?!

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2012, 08:10:08 pm
content: FWIW, I own a Weller WMP iron and WD1 station, and it is smaller than the WP80. It works well enough, particularly for home use, but if I had to do it over again, I think I'd go for a JBC (Weller's QC lately seems to have diminished from what I was accustomed to <pre Cooper acquisition>).

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2012, 12:24:12 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on July 27, 2012, 08:10:08 pmWe had a factory full of Wellers, but once manufacture was farmed out, the failure rate was SHOCKING. We still have afew boxes full of dead bits !! Never again.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2012, 01:35:43 am
content: I've not heard great things lately.I figure I'll use mine till it dies or can no longer get tips (NT series, which aren't as common), and get a JBC to replace it, as just the WMP iron is more money than an entire Hakko FX-888 here in the US.I just hope I've a few years before this ends up being the case.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2012, 04:19:13 am
content: There's a reason not to use JBC, it's too expensive for the average home engineer/hobbyistHakko's still being used for manufacturing so who's complaining?

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2012, 02:18:23 pm
content: In past discussions on eevblog, Hakko soldering tools are typically 1.5-3x higher in the EU or UK, not including VAT and shipping. Tools made in the EU or represented there, like Weller or JBC, are not as high. The only tools priced nearer to USA are Chinese branded clones. Whe've seen prices vary quite a bit, between USA and EU, so when price is considered, it can be more logical to get a low end JBC station than a Hakko FX888 based on price.I like JBC as a company, its similar to Hakko, its small and not controlled by some giant parent corporation. Their technology is also unique, basically the mass of their tips is so small, it can heat up very quickly using a heating element compared to induction heaters. If I were to move up from my true Hakko 936, it would be JBC.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2012, 06:46:51 pm
content: I understand your pain, it's not like the hakkos aren't very overpriced here ($240 ...)and there's no way to find a JBC here as it seems plus wellers are overpriced and are not limited to being a POS nowadays

author: JBC Tools
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 30, 2012, 09:55:41 am
content: Thank you everybody for your comments, they help us to improve our products and our distribution network to satisfy your soldering needs.Some of you highlighted the "precision" of our nanotweezers. We take this to inform you that we recently released the new adaptable sleeve for nanotweezers which allows the user to have greater control over the tool while soldering. (http://www.jbctools.com/the-new-adaptable-jbc-sleeve-improves-the-control-of-nanotweezers-news-43.html)You can follow us on Facebook (JBC Soldering Tools) or Twitter (@JBCTools) for more news, thank you!JBC

author: JBC Tools
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 22, 2012, 12:11:03 pm
content: Quote from: jahonen on July 26, 2012, 04:21:51 pmWe encourage you to look at our website where you will find the distributors we have in each countryhttp://www.jbctools.com/distributors.htmlIn Finland, you can contact:OY NYLUND-GROUP ABMasalantie 375FI-02430 MASALAPhone: 0358922191500Fax: 0358922191555Mail: Elisabet.Henriksson-Tekoniemi@nylund.fi

author: JBC Tools
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 22, 2012, 12:16:59 pm
content: Quote from: T4P on July 28, 2012, 06:46:51 pmIn Singapore, you can contact:OCHIP HUA EQUIP.& TOOLS PTE LTDBlk 994, Bendemer Rd Kalland Basin Ind.estate 03-07SG-339943 SINGAPOREPhone: 006562983088Fax: 006562970029Mail: shuteng@chiphua.com.sg

author: jahonen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 04:17:47 pm
content: I recently also tried T210's bigger brother, T245 handpiece, with a beefier tip:D2PAK soldered to a ground plane was too easy for that, so I digged out an old acid test, a 2 mm thick aluminium metal core PCB:I immediately noticed that that thing solders to that MCPCB without any problem with standard temperature setting (350°C), whereas Weller WSP80 or Metcal SP200 doesn't even make a decent dent to the existing solder joints, even if you use as wide chisel tip as you can. Only if you crank Weller up to 450°C, then it does something..T245 scales nicely from very small sized tip to huge 6.6 mm one:T245 has about same size than Metcal SP200:Regards,Janne

author: grenert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 06:15:53 pm
content: The Metcal you tested is not really an apples to apples comparison. The SP200 is a more light-duty iron (35W). The MX-5000 is the main soldering iron in their lineup (80W).

author: jahonen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 06:34:39 pm
content: Quote from: grenert on September 01, 2012, 06:15:53 pmUnfortunately I don't have the MX-5000 around to try the same thing. You are right about the intended usage, but I mentioned it anyway that I tried it. Didn't really expect it to be suitable for such a heavy task.My purpose was more like to tell that MCPCB tends to be really hard to solder, not that WSP80 or SP200 are bad (have used both quite a lot in the past, and I still use them now and then).Regards,Janne

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 01:41:11 am
content: Dont forget the 32mm wide 245 tip shown earlier in this thread soldering at 260CQuote from: jahonen on September 01, 2012, 04:17:47 pm

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 02:45:30 pm
content: I've used JBC stations and I truly appreciated them (I also own an old JBC desoldering station), but the bad reports that I read here about Weller reliability are not confirmed by my experience.I've used Weller equipment for more than 35 years (I bought my first Magnastat station in 1978) and, apart some contact cleaning in the handle's magnetic switch, the were really reliable.In my lab I have 5 Wellers, of different models, including the 1978 one (that is still operating), and they work like a charm. No problems, really..Maybe the Weller units sold in the US are not the same sold in Europe? From the photos I see on the US catalog, it is possible: the hand-pieces are different.I must admit that JBC are better, because of their fast heating-up and thermal recovery, but the price difference is high.Best regards

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 04:08:24 pm
content: All i know is the modern Wellers are shit, the old ones lasts long but the new ones notNot even the new engineered soldering station engineers knew their nutsLook at the WX-2 around this forum, it's appalling even at $2000 i would buy a JBC instead! Thank god i didn't win the roadtest ... or else i would go crazy

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 06:24:46 pm
content: Quote from: jahonen on September 01, 2012, 06:34:39 pmThe JBC document comparing different irons to JBC linked to somewhere here showed the the MX5000 performance is pretty close to the JBC. In terns of the best irons it seems there is JBC and Metcal, and then everyone else. Both also have the big advantage of a very close handle to tip distance.I don't think JBC have done a very good job of publicising their products - they seem to have a pretty low profile, like Metcal did maybe 15years ago. I'm sure there's some scope for some creative Youtubeness showing them soldering some insane loads. Gotta be better than that ridiculous vid Weller did a while ago...

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 07:16:43 pm
content: This one right?

author: jahonen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 08:11:07 pm
content: I should also emphasize that my experience is that it is extremely difficult to describe the soldering experience via just some document or numbers/graphs, as it is very personal thing. Only good way to find out is to try it hands on.One thing what I hate about Weller WD 2 at my work, is that the station UI design is just horrible. Without a stand with a switch, one needs a manual(!) to figure out how to exit the hibernation state! At least I didn't get it out of that state without checking that in the manual. That should at least be very intuitive function. It seems that you must first select the channel to wake up, and then press both up/down arrows simultaneously to do that! Fastest way is then just to turn the power off and back againWhat the hell the UI designer was thinking? What I looked at WX2 manual, it seemed to have relatively complex "multimedia" UI with many buttons, I wonder if there are similar brainfarts.I agree with Mike on the point that JBC could make more noise about their products, they would deserve it. Like I said, they tend to be quite obscure. Not that you can't get them, but not even near as easily as Weller, from my perspective. I can go to local electronics shop and get a Weller station (probably not the WX off the shelf but something anyway, and even WX within day or two if I would want that), but same does not unfortunately apply to JBC, even if I would wish that would be the case.Regards,Janne

author: zaoka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2012, 09:52:50 pm
content: Quote from: jahonen on September 01, 2012, 06:34:39 pm8 year old JBC AD2700 is still faster than newest MX5000 Metcal, check JBC comparation PDF for details.Old Weller units are good and long lasting, however, their technology is old today. Weller come up with MT1500 several years ago, however, its tip desing were terrible! If you press with tip a couple of time it creates bad contact inside of tip and it starts overheating. Tips cost were around $45 at that time.Also sensitivity of that station was bad, often it rises temperature much more than needed.

author: vzoole
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2012, 09:27:02 pm
content: Quote from: zaoka on September 07, 2012, 09:52:50 pmBut don't forget the Metcal MX5000 is a ~20 years old device in new case with LCD display.

author: Mistretzul
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 15, 2012, 08:45:22 pm
content: Hello guys,I see that you know a lot of things about JBC soldering tool , also some of you got at work or at home these tools. (at work I got only a hot air JBC , the rest are also Weller).For a 4-5 years I've been using at home Pensol for hobby purpose but now I feel I need something more precise. I can not afford to buy a JBC soldering station. I would like to use a JBC soldering iron :http://www.tme.eu/ro/details/jbc-t210-a/statii-de-lipit-accesorii/jbc-tools/t210-a/#, and make my own control unit ( I am an embedded SW engineer so I have a lot of ideas regarding the control SW).The thing is I can not find any information of how this iron is controlled by a JBC soldering station. I think it might be PWM but I don't know voltages , frequencies , what type of temp sensor the iron has and what is it's output.Can you guys help me with some information ?

author: poodyp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2012, 09:15:04 pm
content: JBC uses the same technique that other irons use (switched 60hz), but the heating element doubles as a thermocouple, and they alternate between heating and sensing. Because the temperature is sensed right in the tip, the thermal lag is almost zero, and the iron can be driven much harder and faster, and still avoid overshoot.

author: Mistretzul
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 15, 2012, 09:22:17 pm
content: Do you know which type of thermocouple uses ? (k,r,...etc) Also at the end connector do you know which pins are for heater element and which are for thermocouple ?When you say switched 60Hz you are referring to AC voltage (you are referring at the control of command angle of a triac ) ?My idea was to use PWM (24 V) for the heating element and for temperature stabilization I want to use a fuzzy regulator (for this kind of application works great , also I want implement some fetures that I've seen on Weller solder stations). But for this I need to know the domain of my inputs and outputs.

author: larry42
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 08:26:49 pm
content: The old magnastat Wellers are reliable, but not suitable for modern lead-free soldering. Ive just ordered a 1200 euro (ex VAT) JBC DD-2B with T-210 and PA-A.We had 3 Weller WD2 in the office. Bad UI (though not as bad as the FM201 (?) from Hakko). The problem is that the Wellers went through expensive tips like crazy, at least some had defective reed switches, and Weller's support was bad. I've only heard good things about the JBCs and having used them briefly I like the UI, as well as the feel of the units.I've soldered 0201 resistors with an older JBC in the office here. The tips seem to last a long time (because no-one seems to take care of the lab, so the tips must have been on for a long time).

author: Kibi
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 09:29:30 pm
content: I too can attest to the magnificence of JBC tools. I have the DIT station (DI single tool controller) and a T245 hand piece. I've soldered M6 brass nuts and bolts with a 2.4mm tip, no problems.It is expensive, but it is a tool for life. Very impressed.

author: vzoole
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 01:30:38 am
content: Quote from: Mistretzul on December 15, 2012, 08:45:22 pmI'm working on it.Many thing is done in my head. I would like to design a universal solder controller. Now I'm waiting for Weller WRMP iron. When I get, I'll start public the project.You can see my controller unit here

author: sparkybg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2014, 12:32:35 pm
content: Quote from: poodyp on December 15, 2012, 09:15:04 pmNo, it does not. The thermocouple has it's own terminal on the tip (the smallest one). Hakko T12, Pace TD100 and Weller are using series thermocouple.It is a non-standart thermocouple.

author: r342f2f
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 09:08:43 pm
content: Did you try searching for used or refurbished units? I saw a few on eBay a few weeks back that were much cheaper than new. New for the compact units were $400+. Used are like $100-$200.Quote from: Mistretzul on December 15, 2012, 08:45:22 pm

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2016, 08:47:21 pm
content: Quote from: jahonen on July 26, 2012, 04:21:51 pmIf you want to compare irons between brands you really need to compare hand pieces that are somewhat equivalent. The WSP80/WP80 is a general purpose iron with a old design but very cheap tips Something like the WRMP hand piece would be a better/fairer comparison and I doubt you would find much difference in use.I don't have anything against the JBC but the price point which is why I chose the Weller. Most manufactures have a range of hand pieces which in use perform very similar to each other and it comes down to how much are you willing to spend and tip selection. I don't expect a relatively low end iron to match a high end micro iron.