Passive probes and quality - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: spikey1973
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 06:42:59 pm
content: Hallo to all.Some of you allready know that I have ordered a Aneng AOS03 / ZOYT ZT703s.There has been a lot of discussion in the thread on these machines on the topic if this was a good choice, as there are always so many more and better options available.So from here on let's just assume I am happy with the toy like quality of this scopemeter and go from here please!Anyway the ZT703s is a 50Mhz scope with input impedance of 1M Ohm @ 16pF and it came delivered with (in my case 1) a ypioneer p2016 60Mhz type of probe (from aneng/zoyt/ypioneer?)When I compensated the probe it worked fine initially, but when I zoomed in on the square wave and tried to move out and back in to do it more securely there was no response anymore.I guess the variable capacitor is broken, the screw actually rotates but there is no response on the screen.It is fairly close to compensation on channel 1, but not exactly there. but I might be able to get some usage out of it for now if I really need to.Anyway I also have an Uni-T P03 probe too, later more on that.So I am looking for a fairly descent probe set to use with this scope, so something within my small (AE) budget and a quality that would not be a waist for this scope.In the mean time will see if AE will compensate (my friend) some for the probe.When I asked about probes and quality in the thread of the zt70x I was pointed to thread by @IC_Toaster where he compares three probes on these scopes.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-zoyi-multimeteroscilloscopes-zt-70xs-up-to-50mhz250msps-(nov-2022)/msg5690181/#msg5690181Although very interesing, I still have many more questions on passive probes and there quality for which I thought to start this thread, so not to hijack other thread.So IC_Toaster's conclusions were: (Fast till slow)Without attenuation:Zoyi >> Siglent >>> p6100 probe.With attenuation:Siglent >> Zoyi >>> p6100 probe.The specs (I found, some assumptions are made here)Zoyi: 60Mhz, 10MOhm @ 10x, 14pF-70pF, compensation 10pF-35pF (if the ypioneer p2060 like mine)Siglent: no type or specifics known to me.p6100: 100Mhz, 10MOhm @ 10x, 18,5pF-22,5pF, compensation 10pF-30pF (general p6100 AE specs)Besides these I myself have a (Uni-T)UTP03: 60Mhz, 10MOhm @ 10x, 14.5pF-17.5pF, compensation 5pF-30pFI really looked forward comparing this with the probe that came with my scope as a fun test to do, knowing it would be done with my toy scope. it could've still give me some information.So my questions can all be basically combined into one, what makes one probe better / faster then the other.- Ofcourse the bnc connector quality and the quality of the wiring, but what else?- I assume a smaller range of variable capacitance would make a more accurate compansation possible?- So what 'causes' the faster / slower response time?- Is the there a relation between Max frequency and it's relation to the Max frequence of the scope? (would a 60Mhz probe fit better with a 50Mhz compared to for example a 100Mhz probe?)- What else are essential qualities in a good passive probe.Kind greatsMatthieuAddition: what is the difference between the p2000 / 4000 / 6000 / 7000 series probes?

author: JacobPilsen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 07:35:01 pm
content: In short: Always take the better probe if you can.The probe attenuation is combined with the oscilloscope input attenuation.When both have -3dB at 50MHz, they will have about -6dB together. And they will have -3dB somewhere lower, for example around 43MHz.But a 100MHz probe with a 50MHz oscilloscope will have -3dB closer to 50MHz, for example 47MHz.Some literature:https://w140.com/tekwiki/images/6/62/062-1146-00.pdf(Tektronix Oscilloscope Probe Circuits Concepts by Joe Weber)

author: IC_Toaster
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 07:46:40 pm
content: @spikey1973I did that comparation, but I don't have much knowledge so probably there are more test to do in order to determine the probe frequency response. In that case, I accept suggestions to do these test.The Siglen probe is this:https://www.siglent.eu/product/1262729/siglent-pb470-70mhz-1x-10x-attenuation-oscilloscope-probeAnd the specifications are: 70MHz 1X/10X attenuation, 85/18pf, 1M/10Mohm, 6M/70MHz, 300V/600VSorry Spikey, I will take advantage of this thread to ask for recommendations for a not expensive probe with at least 200 MHz bandwith for my Siglent oscilloscope (200 MHz is supposedly the oscilloscope bandwith).Does this Owon probe worth it?https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006370069181.html

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 07:58:57 pm
content: Quote from: JacobPilsen on November 07, 2024, 07:35:01 pmYes, but there's no point in overdoing it.TheP6100should be sufficient for your scope imo.Your ZT703s has a rise time of 10ns.The differences you see on the Siglent screenshots probably cannot be captured by your scope.You can also read something here, for example:https://www.physics.wisc.edu/courses/home/fall2022/321/lab_equipment/MSO2014_scope_tutorials/Probes/Probes-Instructors-Guide.pdf

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 08:12:18 pm
content: IMO, the best probes are from ProbeMaster.com, and many people like Testec too.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 08:13:26 pm
content: Quote from: IC_Toaster on November 07, 2024, 07:46:40 pmI have the PP-250 fromhere.They are OK as far as I can tell.For lower frequency ranges, however, I always use the probes with less bandwidth, as these also serve as a low pass filter and less high frequency noise gets through.

author: spikey1973
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 08:33:29 pm
content: @aldo22: thank you much for te link, I will definately have a look at it!Also good to know from my 10ns rise time. indeed. most cheap probes will meet this criteria.@KungFuJosh: I think I read a similar comment before (from you), and I guess you are right. but it's way above my budget.@IC_Toaster: oh please hijack as much as you like here. it will only give more knowledge to the people / thread.@JacobPilsen: thanks for your link too. I will probably need some more back ground knowledge before I completley understand you comment.@all. thanks for your input. much appreciated!

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 09:12:07 pm
content: Quote from: spikey1973 on November 07, 2024, 08:33:29 pmI didn't see a budget listed. What's your budget?

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 09:22:40 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on November 07, 2024, 09:12:07 pmWell, he has a $70 scopemeter (50MHz).So 2 x $60 for probes doesn't quite fit.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 09:39:37 pm
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on November 07, 2024, 09:22:40 pmPssshh. Probes are more important. 😉If he can find a good price, the Pico TA131 probes are great. I got some years ago for less than $20 a probe.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 09:45:51 pm
content: Quote from: IC_Toaster on November 07, 2024, 07:46:40 pmThe 70MHz 12 bit Siglent scopes come with 200MHz probe. If you accidentally overclocked the oscilloscope to 200MHz, you don't need new probes. If you really want new probes, the P2200 (not tektronix ones) are identical in the probe side as the siglent ones, PB470, with different compensation, different BNC connector.

author: IC_Toaster
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 10:00:12 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on November 07, 2024, 08:12:18 pmProbeMaster is in USA, but Testec is in Germany. As I am in Europe, Testec would be easier to buy, and their probes look reliable.Quote from: Aldo22 on November 07, 2024, 08:13:26 pmGood idea using probes with lower bandwith as filter. Moreover, they are cheaper.The price is similar to the 200 MHz bandwith Owon one.Quote from: tszaboo on November 07, 2024, 09:45:51 pmIf the ocilloscope were accidentally overclocked, could it suffer any negative consequence?It is supposed PB470 probe has 70MHz bandwith and I took it in this way. It is good to know this probe is better than specified.Anyway, I will take a look at P2200 probes.

author: spikey1973
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 10:42:32 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 07, 2024, 09:45:51 pmOke how do you accidentally overclock a scope? did you stumble?Quote from: Aldo22 on November 07, 2024, 09:22:40 pmWell eh not for much longer I'm afraid I recieved it today and played around with it (with my friend) and we both decided to ship it back.I will go and search for something similar. Already looking at Zeeweii (thanks to you) but moved on to the Dso3d12.Well I will be waiting for the refund first and then at least another choice day or something like that.Also I would get it from there official store ofcourse.But before deciding I will have a long read back in the Zoyt zt70xs thread to see what else was suggested over time.Quote from: KungFuJosh on November 07, 2024, 09:39:37 pmI will keep that in mind!! thanks.@IC_Toaster, I will have a look @ Testec.@Aldo: oke, so I should not chuck my uni-t 60Mhz probes yet, If I'd decide to go for the Dso3d12Thank you all again for infomative replies

author: IC_Toaster
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 11:00:52 pm
content: Quote from: spikey1973 on November 07, 2024, 10:42:32 pmThe probe provided by Zoyi is a P2060, so I guess P2200 probes are same quality and construction but different bandwidth.I see it is possible to get 2 P2200 probes under 19€.Probably Testec is better, but quite more expensive.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 11:26:06 pm
content: Quote from: IC_Toaster on November 07, 2024, 10:00:12 pmhttps://www.welectron.com/Probe-Master_1

author: spikey1973
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 12:42:09 am
content: @IC_ToasterHaving myself "collected" some probes over time, I can tell the following,I have:p2060 probe (chinese version of some sort),p4100 probes (no clue how I got these ever, but I have them next to me) (2x) of different brandings, both chinese versions.Uni-T UT-P03 probes (2x) (also chinese ofcourse)And I can honoustly say that build quality wise the UNI-T probes look way better then the Chinese p-series probes.Ofcourse it's all about the interals, but usually the exterior tells something too and thats all I can objectively say without actual testing (something I can't do, sorry)Anyway:- Plastic looks the same, but has a different little less plasticy feel- Cable are a little softer- Plastic cover over the BNC connector is nicer, sturdier. Rotates smoothly.I looked online, but couldn't find any reviews, comments or anything on these probes, not good once / not bad once.Generally I have an oke view on Uni-T product. Don't know about the scopes though.so if looks say anything, it could be that there is a small hidden gem somewhere in these, who knows.Kind greatsMatthieu

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 11:38:31 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on November 07, 2024, 11:26:06 pmStrangely I see various ProbeMaster multimeter test leads at Welectron, but no oscilloscope probes. Makes you wonder how they set up and split their distribution channels?Personally I went with Testec as well since they are easily available here, and have been happy with the probes over several years now. Only complaint is that they don't include ground springs with the midrange probes. (But they do include BNC adapters.)

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 12:31:53 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 08, 2024, 11:38:31 amThat is weird. I thought they previously had scope probes too. Maybe out of stock? I dunno, might be worth emailing them to ask if anybody needs probes from them.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 12:43:03 pm
content: Quote from: IC_Toaster on November 07, 2024, 11:00:52 pmI looked at the P2060 probe, compared it to the P2200 and the specifications differ only in two places. Rise time and compensation range. Now, I'm actually wondering if the P2060 would easily go to 200MHz or not. There is nothing really in these probes that would limit the bandwidth (other than 0.1 cent capacitors), and I think it's entirely possible they have the same internals.I think you should test your existing probes, if the frequency is your only consideration. A RPi Pico will make a rise time of about 2.2ns, which is 160MHz, very cheap way of testing this.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 12:47:54 pm
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on November 07, 2024, 07:58:57 pmAldo, THANK YOU. I was able to deduce the link to the course tutorials, labs and text. I do use MIT open courseware, but it would be great if we had a list of open online course material in the beginner section.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 07:31:41 pm
content: Quote from: JacobPilsen on November 07, 2024, 07:35:01 pmThat is true, but only to a limited extent. Oscilloscopes and oscilloscope probes are not specified by their individual -3dB points. Instead, the specified bandwidth is the combined oscilloscope and probe bandwidth at the probe tip. The specified probe bandwidth is more like the bandwidth up to which the probe will perform properly, without excessive distortion or aberrations.If I have an oscilloscope with a specified bandwidth of 50 MHz, and an oscilloscope probe with a specified bandwidth of 50 MHz, then my testing at the probe tip with the proper source (see below) had better reveal a bandwidth of at least 50 MHz.Note however that for objectivity, these specifications are generated using a *terminated* 50 ohms source, which is 25 ohms. A higher impedance source, like most circuit test points, will have lower bandwidth because of interaction with the probe tip capacitance.

author: hp3310a
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2024, 11:59:18 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 07, 2024, 09:45:51 pmI was looking forward to being pleasantly surprised, but unfortunately that isn't the case. The brand new SDS804X-HD that was just delivered contains PB470 70MHz probes (4 pieces).

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2024, 12:01:06 pm
content: Quote from: hp3310a on November 29, 2024, 11:59:18 amYes, that's what they write on the side of the probe.It was measured to be way faster than that.

author: hp3310a
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2024, 12:51:26 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 29, 2024, 12:01:06 pmSo what you are saying is they make one probe with different labels, just like with the scopes?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2024, 01:07:35 pm
content: https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2024/11/Probe_List_11262024.pdf

author: bte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2024, 01:27:10 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on November 29, 2024, 01:07:35 pmIt looks like SDS1102X HD has a "special" probe offer.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2024, 02:45:57 pm
content: Quote from: hp3310a on November 29, 2024, 12:51:26 pmWhat I'm saying is that forum members measured their probe with PB470 written on it to be significantly faster than 70 MHz.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds800x-hd-12-bit-dsos-coming/msg5489233/?topicseen#msg5489233

author: hp3310a
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2024, 04:51:10 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 29, 2024, 02:45:57 pmOK, understood, thanks.

author: ass20
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 10:09:33 am
content: anybody have inside photo of P4100 (x100) probes ?