Silent FiltAir: a practical tool for your soldering station - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: tinkerelectronics
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 10:23:38 am
content: Hi folks,You might find interesting the following low noise bench top fume extractor, it has been designed to make the time that all of us spend soldering more pleasant.https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1192494997/silent-filtairEnjoy!

author: LEECH666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 11:16:41 am
content: Wow, some stock grates, a bit of stock filter fabric, some ultra silent stock PC fans, probably a power supply, some acryllic case material! FUCKING ROCKET SCIENCE!On the other hand it seems to work quite nicely ...

author: tinkerelectronics
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 11:51:16 am
content: Thanks for the feedback, all in all It is a cost effective solder fume extractor designed with high grade components that does exactly what it says on the tin, as effective and simple as it can be, but not simpler.

author: leppie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 11:59:21 am
content: Why not use a big ass 240mm fan? Unless static pressure is a problem with the filters.

author: Harvs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 02:00:29 pm
content: What's the life of the carbon filters?Do they degrade with time when you're not using it?

author: tinkerelectronics
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 02:09:03 pm
content: We have tried with a variety of different fans and vendors and have decided to go with those in size that provide the best performance (range/noise), have a good availability, manufacturer reputation at a reasonable price.

author: tinkerelectronics
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 02:28:07 pm
content: The filters will gradually become saturated, and to keep its effectiveness the filtering set should be replaced periodically. How frequently? I am afraid I don't have an exact answer to that question, since it would depend on the environmental conditions where Silent FiltAir is kept, as well as its usage, type of solder, etc. We have estimated that an average life cycle for each set would be between 2-3 months by using it every single day (8 hours/day). Obviously, if it were to be operating more sporadically instead, its life cycle would be extended.In order to preserve them properly it is deemed necessary to stow the fume extractor in an enclosed location, a box or closet wrapped in a bag or cover would be ideal for a proper storage. The key factor here is to keep it away from any air currents which may contain impurities.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2014, 11:29:26 am
content: Looks like a good working distance. My Pace ones you have to get so close they are almost useless, ad sound like a jet engine.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2014, 08:29:55 pm
content: Quote from: tinkerelectronics on May 23, 2014, 11:51:16 amI've backed this project as it looks effective and certainly quiet cf. other units i've used.A couple of things.1. Have you got data or done tests to show the reduction in fumes?2. I don't care about the frame colour - but it would be good to offer a black Al grille option.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2014, 08:36:31 pm
content: "Psssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss." Me thinks you have a bit too much water on your soldering sponge.Products looks like it works.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2014, 09:04:35 pm
content: Honestly, you really need to reach 18.000 GBP to start the production of that item with 4 fans?Don't be offended, but maybe I miss something.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2014, 09:24:53 pm
content: £18K is 250 units more or less. Which is 1K fans.The gantt chart shows parts delivery within 30 days, so they must have the cash already as KS takes 2-3 weeks to pay.

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 01:48:05 am
content: How about add arduino and IR temp sensor, fans only turn on when it sees hot soldering iron nearby.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 03:26:51 am
content: Quote from: fcb on May 24, 2014, 09:24:53 pmYou new to KS?))

author: tinkerelectronics
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 10:31:23 am
content: Excuse the delay, I have been stuck in a flight for more than 12 hours...QuoteThanks Dave, that's our motivation.Quotefcb, thanks ever so much we really appreciate your support.1. This is a good question and have decided to add it to the FAQ, it is very relevant and everyone should have a good understanding on this topic, we would like full transparency on this project. We have not done any formal testing since our aim isn't to develop a system that totally neutralizes the odours, that's out of the scope it would rocket the price and would require a different approach. Instead, our intention was to create a low cost fume extractor to prevent direct inhalation while we are soldering, avoiding the inconvenience caused otherwise, and passing the fumes through the best filters we have found to this purpose. However, It is neither guaranteed that the filters will retain 100 % of the particles nor that they will get rid of the smell completely.2. Having a different colour grille is an excellent suggestion, it could make it look really sexy I reckon. It is definitively possible, aluminium could be anodised to this purpose. We are going to evaluate what cost implication that would have.QuoteThat's to have a reference background noiseQuoteThat's right, unfortunately the pricing will make sense provided that at least 250 units get sold.QuoteSounds good, but I am not sure about getting it to work reliably across the covering range we have got. We want to keep it simple for now to maxime affordability and practicality.This is our first project as creators and we are very excited about the possibility of bringing this fume extractor to your soldering benches. All the feedback received is very much appreciated, it will certainly be taking into consideration regardless of what the outcome of the campaign is, we strive for delivering a useful tool to the community.

author: tinkerelectronics
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 28, 2014, 08:46:40 pm
content: Hi again,After a few quiet days on Kickstarter, it is time to ponder on what we are doing wrong, why the product seems to lack insterest and what might require improving from your point of view. Do you think the product might look overpriced? What features is it missing or would be nice if it had them? What about its size, too large maybe, would a smaller version be more attractive? Do you think the range is adequate? Do you consider a fume extractor as part of soldering kit? If you have one, do you use it often? Anything missing? Anything you think we could improve?As it has been mentioned, we are already considering offering a different colour grille, your feedback is very valuable to us, we are all ears!Thank you

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2014, 09:54:37 pm
content: It's difficult to say.Did you do any market research? What was the feedback? Are you happy with the video? Have you explained the process behind your invention? Are you happy with the fit & finish?FWIW - I don't think the grille colour will make any difference to the sales.

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2014, 10:57:20 pm
content: Quote from: tinkerelectronics on May 28, 2014, 08:46:40 pm75+15 = 90 British Pound Sterling equals (I know there are still 65£ ones left...)110.63 EuroThat is crazy high just makes me think I can get it cheaper or almost free with parts I already have. Hmm got an idea, maybe I'll make one with single fan out of old computer ATX PSU with 12cm fan.I'm sure someone has already had this same idea, since computer PSU already has almost everything, when empty the case has room for thick filters, but it blows from the side.How much would it be if it only had the laser cut parts and grilles? No fans and no filters. I think the filter materials are what are normally used in kitchen and can be bought cheaply by the meter.What about laser cut plywood? For those people who want to go "green". Earlier maker bots were made out of plywood, looks pretty nice. Also wood can be painted/stained/colored with anything even with watercolors.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2014, 12:11:13 am
content: Personally I think you have simply (massively) overestimated the market, that and it's to me, crazy expensive, even half the price would be still in the "quite pricey" area.This is a product which people who are soldering all day every day might need, and yes those people, or rather their employers would probably buy it, but those people (or rather, companies) are not going to be doing so on kickstarter.Hobbiests, who probably spend no more than a couple hours a week weilding an iron on average, just don't *need* it, and it's too expensive for a "nice to have" IMHO - but then, I am a cheap bastard.Sent from my HTC Dream using Tapatalk 2

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2014, 12:54:29 am
content: I'm not so sure about the "jet engine" complaint for soldering fume extractors. Our benches at university have nice units made by Pace and they are near silent in operation. You can accidentally leave them on and only know if the lab was completely silent. I do imagine the cost is substantially higher though...

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2014, 01:05:11 am
content: Kinda looks like someone beat you to it:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1554904482/the-fumefan-soldering-fume-extractor?ref=categoryMaybe when that kickstarter ends, you'll pick up some orders?

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2014, 01:56:34 am
content: I think the main problem, as other people have pointed out, is the price. Sorry.But, a couple of other comments:You may want to consider a different name. The Filtair pun is obvious that, yes, someone else came up with it before you. Depending on exactly how litigiousthese peopleyou might be in for a lawsuit.Speed control might be a good idea, but that adds some extra electronics. But here's a different idea I got. Controlling the speed of the upper and lower fans individually. This might give a lower and/or more comfortable noise profile that still has decent performance. The fans would be running at different speeds, they would emit different base frequencies, which would give a broader spectrum of noise. I don't know if this would actually be beneficial in the end, but maybe worth exploring.

author: kc0ngu
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2014, 02:20:16 am
content: The main issues I believe are price and need. The market size is possibly too small to support this campaign, and price could easily put of many potential backers especially as this is the kind of item (all be it may not as good) available from a variety of existing vendors.Just 2 cents from a potential backer.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2014, 05:48:26 am
content: "silent" computer fans are overpriced sucker item as it is. Your price suggest you buy them retail :/Your whole BOM should be around $20, times 2.5 = $50 tops for the end product, not 110 pounds.Engineers are cheap. You might have some luck selling them on Adafruit to hipster crowd tho

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2014, 07:10:08 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on May 29, 2014, 05:48:26 amYou didn't include labor(not to mention tooling, shipping costs, rent. etc) in the BOM. Common misconception is you just multiply BOM x 2.5. It's almost never works out well that way. Unless you're an big player like Adafruit/Sparkfun. Just ask Dave why he doesn't sell his uCurrents at 2.5 x BOM.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2014, 08:33:40 am
content: £85?? You're having a bloody laugh!I could easily make something very similar for half the price.That is why nobody is buying. You're charging close to a hundred pounds for a few fans and a filter in a not so nice looking frame.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2014, 08:41:45 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on May 29, 2014, 05:48:26 amVery unlikely the BOM for that product gets even close to sub $20 let alone £20. I'm not sure where you get the £110 from, I backed the unit and my commitment is £65.Clearly "the wisdom of the crowd" is working and there is very little demand for this product at this price, and the OP should either rethink the whole price/feature thing, sell it direct (which would beg the question why they need £18K) or go and do something else.Incidentally, I'm not a backer of the other fan on KS (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1554904482/the-fumefan-soldering-fume-extractor?ref=category) - it's cute looking and probably works well - but just another jet-engine on the bench. I like the large & quiet format of the Filtair.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2014, 01:17:03 pm
content: Battery powered hi-flow fan.

author: tinkerelectronics
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 29, 2014, 06:00:23 pm
content: Thanks a lot for the comments,There is not a lot more we can do to lower the price of this unit without compromising the quality of a any of the components, the intention wasn't to do an extractor spending as little as possible to end up with a cheapo as there are already a few out there, those might do for the people who touch a soldering iron once a month if so but for more regular users those solutions aren't very practical even if they have one of thesehttp://gsmserver.com/shop/equipment/soldering_sssembly/ancillary_equipment/pcb_holder_proskit_sn_394.php. As an example, just the filters we use cost 6 to 7 times more than other alternatives but we didn't think would be worth to deliver something that we don't really know what it is or isn't certified at all.Something we are contemplating is working on other versions with a single fan, or 2, as well as the current which has 4. That would definitively bring the cost down, the fans aren't cheap either, much easier to ship, and so on; but obviously will decrease the coverage/range accordingly. What would you think about that?We are pretty reluctant to come up with more of the same, and therefore would like to keep the selection of componets that we have in general terms (maybe could offer a plywood version). We are aware that we are targeting a semi professional group and possibly there aren't as many as occasional users who might not even need one, what we are trying to understand at this stage is: are we in the right direction for those who solder more regularly or there is something fundamental we are missing?We are not sure if this is the right way to expose it, but unfortunately we need a crowdfunding platform to make this product, if you think it's far too pricey as it is you don't want to know the price for making a few tens of them only.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2014, 11:06:22 pm
content: Maybe my fan is bigger than yours

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 09:38:31 pm
content: They (Enabl3rs) have just cancelled their campaign on KS...

author: tinkerelectronics
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 07:07:03 pm
content: That's right, as fcb mentioned. We decided to cancel the campaign on last Thursday and concentrate on the work that need to be undertaken to do to improve the product and its options. We have listened to all the valuable feedback and learnt a few lessons through out the process for the next campaign. You will be hearing from us in the near future with an enhanced fume extractor with added features, more options, and hopefully a lowered tager price once we renegotiate with the suppliers, meanwhile we will be working hard on it. We'll keep all of you posted since we want your input to be reflected on the final result.Thanks.