Cr2032 batteries will not power my product sufficiently  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Trishell
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 05:08:35 am
content: Hello electronic Gurus, I have a huge problem and I'm hoping that someone might be able to provide some insight into a solution. I funded a project for my daughter's business which involved producing some novelty glasses that have EL (electroluminescent) wire that lights up around the perimeter of the glasses.They are powered by (two) CR2032 batteries. It doesn't matter what quality of battery I use, the CR2032 batteries will only power the glasses from 20 to 30 minutes long maximum. To worsen the situation, if the batteries are placed in the the battery slot compartment and sit for any length of time, even without any usage, it seems to drain the batteries completely.I have a substantial amount of money invested in the glasses and I really want my daughter to succeed in her business. I won't however compromise my integrity by selling glasses that don't fulfill the expectations of our customers. The manufacturer Who produced them has already been paid for the product in full therefore they are not willing to help us out.It looks like there are some highly intelligent people here on the site and I'm hoping someone could provide some insight to a possible solution.Thank you to anyone who can offer some guidance.With great appreciation,TrishTrishell@telus.net

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 05:25:13 am
content: Quote from: Trishell on December 19, 2013, 05:08:35 amYou have told us you have 2 CR2032 batteries and some undefined electroluminescent wire.The problem obviously lies in what goes in between and we have no idea what that is....

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 05:33:48 am
content: There are only two possibilities for the cause of this problem:1. Design fault2. Manufacturing faultNow I'm sure it is not what you want to hear, but if the products are already designed and manufactured, there is not a lot you can do. Whether the cause is the first or the second, the only course of action would either be to go through every item and have it modified, or to have the whole batch redesigned and manufactured again.What can you tell us about who designed the product, what the design specifications were, and what guarantees were offered about product performance?It is hard to know without more technical details what to expect in terms of battery lifetime. CR2032 batteries are very small and don't have a lot of power for running bright lights and EL wire consumes relatively a lot of power. It doesn't seem at first thought that CR2032 batteries and EL wire should go together in a portable product that needs to run for hours at a time on batteries.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 05:36:41 am
content: We really need more info about the design and how it works. Circuit diagram would really help.If the product is drawing more current than CR2032 are designed for (<5mA) it will severely limit the amount of energy youcan get out before it's flat (lots of energy is wasted as heat).So adjusting the EL driver circuit to run at lower power/brightness may give substantially more runtime.It maybe as simple as changing one resistor. Something that could be done manually to all the products even after manufacture.Another idea is rechargeables.Rechargeable batteries can usually handle faster discharging with less losses in heat, so if the product does turn out to be stressing the batteries you could try out some rechargeable CR2032's and see how they work.The product could even be shipped with 2 rechargeable CR2032's and a battery charger for them, you can get these for $10 each or so on ebay/aliexpress and most come with 2 batteries.In bulk they could be as low as $5 each.NOTE: Cheap china battery chargers might be dangerous, i would open one up and check it out inside before supplying to customer.As far as running the batteries flat when off, that's purely a design issue. Not much can be done to fix that without serious modifcations

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 07:50:01 am
content: LMAOOk, I have to admit, I am easily amused.LMAO, because such glasses are hardly really novel. You can buy some starting at 9 or 10 dollar.And LMAO, because, this is apparently an energy problem, and in the end the battery potential being low, and here is what Trish has to say about energy and potential (emphasis in the original)QuoteQuoteI think Trish is about to learn there is reality and there is reality. And in the real reality energy doesn't come from life as a foundation of energy. And finetuning your energy field doesn't help you when your CR2032s run low.In case you didn't guess it, Trish is some life coach / guru, taking your money for consulting you on some energy money vibe wellness feel good things.Edit: Another money quote, it just gets betterQuoteEdit2: All quotes taken from yourmoneyvibe . com (intentionally formated so page ranking is not increased).

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 08:59:26 am
content: You're cruelBut hey, she has found a way to separate punters from their money, just like many purveyors of snake oil before her.Unfortunately someone has now separated her from her own money.Oops!

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 09:13:25 am
content: Quote from: Trishell on December 19, 2013, 05:08:35 amMy recommendation is get a lawyer.Basically you gave us a lot of story and next to no technical details and nothing irritates a technical person more than someone who's asking for help who has not given them any information."My car won't start! How do I fix it?"Well, your car is made up of thousands of parts, replace them all and your problem will be solved.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 09:45:24 am
content: Your hardware is clearly drawing more than a 2032 can be expected to supply. These batteries have high internal resistance and are not suitable for supplying loads like EL inverters. LR44 and similar alkaline button cells are much more suitable.I suspect it may also be using an EL inverter designed for longer lengths of wire, which will not have been optimised for efficiency at low loads.What is the actual current consumption ? At what voltage does it stop working?I'm afraid that you have probabaly been landed with a badly designed product, for which there is unlikely to ba any practical chance of getting working acceptably, and may need to write off to experience.Why did you commit to this without thoroughly testing a sample/prototype?

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 09:49:32 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 19, 2013, 08:59:26 amYou mean me shining a light on some snake oil is not likeQuantum physics .. shining the light on the unseen world of energy?Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 19, 2013, 09:45:24 amQuantum physics made her do it.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 10:18:57 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 19, 2013, 09:45:24 amMy guess is just a case of well meaning parent.Another question for the original poster, what line of business is this? Art? Fashion? Electronics?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 11:30:45 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 19, 2013, 08:59:26 amThat's what I like about the grumpy old bugger!

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 11:50:48 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 19, 2013, 08:59:26 amI'll tell you what's cruel, not allowing hunting licenses for such a pervasive predatory species.QuoteI know, I know, it's in bad taste. Sorry.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 12:05:20 pm
content: I

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 12:10:36 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on December 19, 2013, 09:49:32 amQua tum physics : the dreams stuff is made from

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 12:17:49 pm
content: Now, on the problem:Most likely the inverter used is not tuned for the task at hand. Poor efficiency, lots of losses .Combine that with the high internal resistance of cr2032 cells( they really are made for very small currents) and you have a disaster waiting.You may get away by replacing the two cr2032 cells with two lithium ion rechargeable cells. For the same volume those should pack a lot more energy. But those will need charging.So you are faced with modifying the battery compartment to permanently hold the lithium ion cells and adding a connector so the pack can be charged.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 12:29:51 pm
content: You can get specialized high current CR2032 cells, i found a company selling them a few years back when investigating CR2032s for a project.I cant seem to find the batteries now though, but i only did a quick googleFrom memory they could handle up to 200mA but had a significantly higher price.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 12:33:20 pm
content: Tadiran maybe ? Or Saft ?

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 12:40:10 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 19, 2013, 12:17:49 pmNa, I think the real interesting question is how the light from the EL wire (Photons baby, yeah! Quantum stuff, uh!) will interfere with the wearer's wealth energy field? I smell a personal energy field adjustment device in the making.By the way, around $3/piece buys you EL glasses with a separate 2xAA battery box on Alibaba. Problem solved.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 12:42:10 pm
content: All i remember about them is that their product name contained some different letters.Like DR2032 or CR2032X etc..I've had another good look and cant find them anyway. Company must have stopped making them. Quite likely there wasn't enough demand for high discharge 2032 with so many better options available, and they did cost quite a bit.

author: AndersAnd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 01:01:44 pm
content: Quote from: Trishell on December 19, 2013, 05:08:35 amThere is an easier way to WEALTH. Your Finances are a reflection of your “Money Vibe”. Become a Conscious Creator of Wealth! Understand the Money Matrix and Thrive! Let go of your Lack and Take your the Bull by the Horns. Become a Conscious Creator of Wealth!So the best advice to you and your daughter to succeed in business is to raise your Money Vibe by signing up for The Money Matrix Seminar and read Trish Ellis’s book, Rich Vibe Poor Vibe. You will be given the most powerful tool you will ever use to help you create the life of your dreams.Here's Trish Ellis website I case you haven't heard of ithttp://yourmoneyvibe.comQuoteQuoteQuote

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 04:36:06 pm
content: Premium money guru stuff aside (honestly, how do you guys know that this Trish is the same Trish?), this should be the school example of how not to do a project.The battery life issue should have become apparent long before manufacture, in the first prototype...But it's not even clear that this was a proprietary design - it's equally (or more) likely that it was just selected from a catalog of the Chinese manufacturer and custom branded.Anyway, it's a sorry affair.

author: AndersAnd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 04:44:36 pm
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on December 19, 2013, 04:36:06 pmSame e-mail address Trishell@telus.net

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 04:48:07 pm
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on December 19, 2013, 04:36:06 pmhttps://www.facebook.com/Trishelliscoaching/info?_fb_noscript=1http://yourmoneyvibe.com/?page_id=10http://www.craigduswalt.com/mastermind/profiles/TrishEllis/index.htmlSatisfied?

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 09:57:26 pm
content: Mistake #1: not using LEDs instead of EL (or giving us a good reason why not - LEDs are more efficient and cheaper, and also don't require an inverter to generate a HV supply)Mistake #2: not knowing the capacity and current limits of CR2032s, northe designed runtime of your productI think this is a good lesson for you: always write the requirements for something before anything else. If you don't target X hours of runtime first, you won't have it in mind at all when designing.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 11:47:01 pm
content: It's a bit late in the day to be asking a forum for advice on something that is already produced and not working as per your specification; also your post provided no electrical characteristics or design details - hence the lack of sympathetic replies to your post.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2013, 05:28:23 am
content: Quote from: jucole on December 19, 2013, 11:47:01 pmThere will be no "free" fix for this. I think at this point it's just minimizing loss.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2013, 05:29:34 am
content: Quote from: AndersAnd on December 19, 2013, 04:44:36 pmAnd that, children is why you don't post your e-mail address in open forums.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2013, 06:51:01 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on December 20, 2013, 05:29:34 amNo kids, that is why I want to encourage those of you who work on a career in money wellness quantum vibe energy guru meditation healing consultancy, preying on the weak, with or without audiophoolery or free energy to post your e-mail address whenever and wherever possible. We want to learn about your business and character. Remember you don't need to care what we say about you as long as we spell your name right.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 20, 2013, 08:09:20 am
content: And if you are in the 'wellness' and 'wealth vibe' business, you could do worse for your free advertising than posting to an electronics blog

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 20, 2013, 08:46:21 am
content: It's an ad in that it brings awareness of the product/person that would have otherwise gone unnoticed.The sort of people who would fork out money for wellness and/or doubtful financial advice don't always let the facts get in the way of making a decision

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2013, 08:51:42 am
content: Sorry Geoff, changed my mind and deleted my comment. It's nearly Christmas, peace on earth and goodwill to (almost) all...

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2013, 08:52:02 am
content: Quote from: GeoffS on December 20, 2013, 08:46:21 amAnd as with everything on the internet, don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 20, 2013, 09:20:50 am
content: Regarding life coaches in the UK..QuoteI personally think a life coach is a scam, anyone who needs one would do better to start an electronics hobby or join a hackerspace; electronics is all about finding solutions to problems; and just think of all that test gear you could buy with the equivalent in rip-off / scam life coach fees! ;-)

author: AndersAnd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2013, 11:00:14 am
content: My advice is to sell all the electroluminescent glasses outside big rave parties and festivals. These must be the right targets for this kind of bling and it shouldn't take long to sell a lot of them. After 20 minutes inside when the battery runs out the customers will be too high to care about their glasses anymore and they wouldn't be able to find you again anyway.And it looks like they only sell for $15 or so, although these run on AA batteries and apparently lasts about 8 hours:http://www.electrobling.com/#!product/prd1/522674431/electroluminescent-glasses---purple

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2013, 03:21:52 pm
content: Quote from: jucole on December 20, 2013, 09:20:50 amDon't know where this came from, sounds like a politician."it has been estimated" - in other words some undisclosed person pulled a number out of their arse as large as they dare without being considered completely ridiculous by too many people. I doubt there are more than a couple of thousand in Britain and few will make a living from it.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2013, 10:35:47 pm
content: Karma is a bitch...

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2013, 12:44:38 am
content: Probably no good here but I found a good IC for this:http://www.supertex.com/pdf/datasheets/HV852.pdf