$2,000 Custom PC vs $4,000 Mac Pro  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Homer J Simpson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 04:27:13 pm
content: Not posting to start an Apple PC flame war but interesting to watch.About 2 years ago I considered switching from a i7 PC to a Pro but even then the math did not add up.

author: ZeTeX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 05:12:12 pm
content: Apple today in a nutshell, not too surprised.apple is just garbage those days, it really is. (and I still own iPhone 4 and its great, but iphone 4 was before steve jobs died and apple started fooling people)."OWW IT COST 10$ RETAIL!! LETS DRAW AN APPLE ON IT AND SELL IT FOR HALF A MILLION!!""LOOK MOMMY ITS APPLE PLEASE BUY ME PLEASE PLEASE!!!!"

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 05:15:21 pm
content: It basically boils down to what software you need to run and what ecosystem you prefer. The hardware vendor options are obviously severely limited on the Mac side because only Apple manufactures Macs.On the PC side you have much more competition, from processors to graphic cards to every component you can imagine. Mix and match and you will find a price level that can always beat a Mac on a pure performance to dollar ratio.But having said that, people still buy Macs. Ask yourself why?... and you will know whether you fit into that camp or willing to go the PC route.Traditionally, the graphic artists people and hollywood types have always preferred Apple. Whether it is because of software availability (certainly more so in the past) or esthetics, or status symbol.... Today you can find a PC that runs it all too and looks nice too. But you have to go looking. With Apple you have it served to you on a platter with caviar, but you pay a premium for that.If cost were equal I would have no issues considering Apple or PC based on my needs. Being on a budget and knowing what software I typically use is available for Windows or Linux, I choose the cheaper option that does the job. If I had to use some specialized software or game only available on Mac, I would go Mac. Without knowing what you intend to do with your machine, there is no way to answer that question.

author: JacobPilsen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 05:22:16 pm
content: Are Macs still fanless

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 05:28:30 pm
content: Quote from: edy on March 22, 2016, 05:15:21 pmThe artists maybe, and the small production studios, but the big stuff has been made on PCs (mostly HP workstations) for a very long time, and before then on SiliconGraphics machines. The simple reason is that Apple never had anything that was even close to a real high end workstation. That they pretty much were the last to come up with a 64bit OS didn't help them, either.Today I'd say Apple has given up on the 'Pros' as they make much more revenue through iPhone, iPad and iMacs.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 06:02:11 pm
content: I just purchased a refurbished off-lease Lenovo ThinkStation D20 with dual quad cores Xeon processors (16 threads total), 32GB ECC ram and 2TB drives for under $500, including W7 Pro.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 06:13:25 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on March 22, 2016, 06:02:11 pmForgot to mention... There are way more PC's out there and a much better after-market (off-lease, resale, etc). Once again, increased competition and greater volume = better price, more value $$$ available.I also recently purchased an off-lease Lenovo ThinkPad T410 Core i-5 4GB RAM 280 GB HDD Win 7 Pro for under $200 US. There are so many around for sale... tons of parts, tons of support, easy to fix. For that reason as well (availability of parts, resales, interchangable components) I've stayed out of the Mac ecosystem also.I think it boils down to "must have" software that is only available on Mac. For example, if you are an iOS developer you have to be on a Mac. I've done apps for BlackBerry and Android on PC no problems. But I have not been able to get into iOS developing because as far as I know, you need to have a Mac to run their developing environment (XCode IDE)... (there are ways using VMware but that just proves even more that you don't need the Mac)

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 06:20:28 pm
content: Quote from: Homer J Simpson on March 22, 2016, 04:27:13 pmThat comparison isn't a good one. The mac has xeon core and ECC ram and workstation graphics. ECC is slower, but greatly improves the likelihood the memory data is correct. Xeon core goes with that, but also adds better support for other stuff such as virtualization extensions. The graphics are hugely different, the pc had a gamer card, which is optimized for speed rather than correctness. The workstation card in the mac, is optimized for correctness, supports things like full 10bit color path, geometry / overlap corrections, and a bunch more stuff. The PC would need workstation class hardware to be a fair comparison. People using software using those types of features know the difference, most gamers do not. It would actually be not smart to try and build a gaming computer from workstation hardware unless you needed the hardware.Having said that, the current (today) fully loaded ~$10,000 macpro is way over priced and can be built 1/2 the cost in PC hardware. I haven't checked, but I think it's likely that when you go to the lower end macpros, the pricing differential probably becomes less (basing this on insane markups for things like expanded ram in the past).

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 06:42:31 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 22, 2016, 06:20:28 pmThe point he was making though was that - for him - the switch to a cheaper PC was more beneficial. The difference between a 5820k and 1650 V3 is not a great deal (http://ark.intel.com/compare/82932,82765) and only about £190 difference. Unless you need ECC and vPro extensions and 40 PCIE lanes the 5820K is a good deal. If you need 2 CPUs or more then costs escalate very quickly though.For mathematical/mission-criticaltasks you basically have to go with ECC and Xeon. Still, doesn't add quite as much as $2000 though.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 07:38:02 pm
content: Quote from: edy on March 22, 2016, 05:15:21 pm"Traditionally" (back in the 1990's) Apple had a hold on the multimedia and non-linear editing market but PC very quickly cause up. As already mentioned, the big players used film and specialist machines like Silicon Graphics.These days (pretty much from 2000 onwards) most half decent and large production houses, TV studios and OB facilities will use PC-based or embedded devices. Apple is just too darn expensive for no gain. I've done work for two television stations in Sydney (Channel Ten and the smaller TVS in Penrith) and both use PCs. Channel Ten was using HP workstations and Avid systems, TVS used cheaper consumer machines running Playbox Technology's software.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 07:41:34 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on March 22, 2016, 06:42:31 pmI don't think that was the point he was making. He says pretty clearly that the macpro isn't a "pro" product but came to the conclusion as a result of a completely incorrect analysis. You can tell he doesn't know what he's talking about when he thinks the hardware update cycle is too slow (workstation hardware has a slower update cycle the consumer hardware), he also doesn't seem to understand the massive differences between the graphics cards (agencies doing media will be using exclusively workstation cards due to full 10bit path alone).As far as ECC ram. If you're running a business and you depend on the computer, the computer should almost always have ECC ram. Not exclusive to scientific or mission critical applications. The price difference is negligible in the professional market. The E5-1650 equivalent is the i5930k, the cpus cost basically the same, but you generally need slightly more expensive motherboard. You are right most consumers don't need the 40 lanes though but even then the price difference is negligible in the professional market.A fully loaded macpro is definitely over priced though.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 07:43:37 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 22, 2016, 07:38:02 pmGood bet the machines are loaded with workstation cards, and not video gaming cards, and workstation ram. The exception might be rendering stations.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 07:50:38 pm
content: If you're really looking for 'server level' reliability, dual power supplies will likely be more useful than ECC memory. All that being said, I can put together a server-grade system with a Supermicro Chassis/motherboard with Xeons/ECC ram for less money than a Mac Pro.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 07:57:46 pm
content: There are two major problems with this comparison:1) Comparing server-grade hardware to consumer-grade hardware2) Comparing a fully assembled, tested, and warrantied retail product to a rig you design, build, and debug yourself (time = money)Compare apples to apples (pun intended) and the difference will be much smaller. Throw that Mac up against Xeon/ECC workstation from the likes of HP or Dell, not against a machine you built yourself, it's not a fair comparison.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 07:59:28 pm
content: Quote from: boffin on March 22, 2016, 07:50:38 pmOf course you can, you can do it for less money than any Dell, HP, or other retail workstation as well. This has nothing to do with Apple or their prices, this is simply a comparison between retail vs homebrew (and for the OP, server grade vs consumer grade hardware as well).

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 08:06:21 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on March 22, 2016, 06:42:31 pmYes it does. Add in a couple hundred for the Xeon processor, a hundred for the ECC RAM, a couple hundred for the Xeon/ECC motherboard, a hundred for the workstation graphics card, a couple hundred for the server power supply (is the Mac's redundant? Not sure, most server chassis are), a grand for somebody to design, build, test, and warranty it for you, and your right there at Apple's price.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 08:09:22 pm
content: Quick clarification. It's workstation grade vs consumer grade. Server grade is another market segment. Also, there is a difference between a homebrew workstation and a workstation from dell or hp. The dell and hp machines go thru machine level certification, and some go further and get ISV certified. For the most part, the best a homebrew can do is component level ISV certified and others, but not machine level.

author: Kevman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 08:37:52 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on March 22, 2016, 08:06:21 pmYeah, but what if I don'twant to?With Apple my only option then is to buy an All-in-one with laptop components in it (the iMac). So I have to either buy a giant laptop or a silly-expensive server with dual workstation graphics cards. There's no other options. I can't not get ECC Ram. I can't get gamer cards if I don't need FirePro, so there's a very high price floor. It gets pretty silly if you're thinking about using them as servers and don't need the graphics cards at all.The Mac PSU is not redundant and they're typically pretty friggin' pricey. Also note that the graphics cards are mirrored- if you blow a card you must buy or source a left or right handed replacement. I think this is also going to add onto maintenance costs- not only is the card proprietary, there 2 different ones in every machine!

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 08:51:08 pm
content: Quote from: Kevman on March 22, 2016, 08:37:52 pmThen don't buy Apple, or suck it up and deal with the higher price for more reliable equipment. It's not a valid argument to say that you can build -something- for half the cost of the Mac, and therefore Apple is ripping people off, when that -something- you're building is not up to the same level of quality/reliability and doesn't include the same services.If you want a cheap, consumer-grade desktop, then I'm sorry but Apple doesn't make one. That doesn't mean that what theydomake is a ripoff, it's just a different product for a different application. Compare Apple's prices to truly equivalent machines from other name-brand computer manufacturers, and you'll see their prices are right in line.

author: vze1lryy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 04:02:34 am
content: I crap on Apple everyday, almost for a living. But what I will say is that it is so much more than specs.You pay for the experience. You pay for the OS, you pay for the OS "just working" with the hardware, you pay for every aspect of elegant design.If you are Apple's target demographic(BIG IF HERE), their shit will just do everything the way you want it to as if they have read your mind inside and out. EVERYTHING will make sense in this beautiful way.To their target demographic, this is worth far more than saving some money to get equivalent processing power for a few bucks less. To go from Mac to PC, to get the same specs for less, to these people, would be like dumping your spouse who loves you & understands you & values you for someone who couldn't give a shit about you because they're 3 lbs lighter. Ridiculous.To people outside their target demographic(like myself), it is torture. I wouldn't take half of their shit for free. I just can't stand it. Every aspect of the machine is at odds with how I use a computer. It is inherently frustrating to be stuck inside their ecosystem, for me.But I understand how it works for other people completely. The same way I understand that a $6000 Lenovo P70 with a trackpoint, while amazing interface for me, would be worse than hell for many Mac users used to a conservative-sensitivity-but-accurate trackpad.

author: vze1lryy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 04:05:47 am
content: Now, from a purely TECHNICAL point of viewIt is absolute BS that GPUs are failing in this machine enough to warrant an extended warranty/recall program.It is shaped like a HEPA filter. This is a desktop. It was designed, from the bottom up, with ventilation in mind.Every year Apple screws up their hardware in a new way. Every effing year.And it is so frustrating, because unlike everyone else who competes on price, Apple has the money to do it RIGHT!!

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 06:21:35 am
content: Quote from: vze1lryy on March 23, 2016, 04:02:34 amThis is exactly it. You aren't paying for a "computer" in the general sense, you are paying for a specific product where a number of the differentiating characteristics are subjective.I've been through many computers over the years, from desktops to laptops to servers. Apple stands out as a company who provided me with outstanding warranty service (or should I say, out-of-warranty-but-still-free-without-arguments service), as well as a reliable product, and that's why I pay the not insignificant premium to type this on a macbook pro.If you don't like it, don't buy it ?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 01:15:00 pm
content: The modern Mac Pro is kind of a bizarre beast. Aside from the fact it hasn't been updated since time immemorial, it's really designed almost exclusively for high-end video editing, to the exclusion of other tasks. For nearly anything else, a high-end iMac is actually faster, not to mention massively cheaper.This is quite a shift from earlier Mac Pros, which had wide appeal to power users of various kinds. My main computer is a 2008 Mac Pro, which wasn't cheap, but it was actually $1100 cheaper than the closest-spec Dell Dimension workstation available at the time. (In fact, Apple's price for the entire computer was only about a few dollars more than Newegg's cost, at the time, for just the two Xeon processors it contained!!!) A few upgrades over the years (RAM, SSD, and GPU) and this old beast is still lightning fast and rock solid stable.Indeed, if you look at Mac tech forums, you'll find that an ongoing gripe from power users is the lack of any expandable machine for power users. They — we — want for the screen to be separate, space for internal storage, etc. (I love having ample drive bays in my Mac Pro.) But the problem is, most people (and businesses) don't ever upgrade computer components piecemeal. We know that they almost always replace their displays, input devices, etc, even though those could easily be kept and used with a new CPU. We power users who want modularity are simply not a large enough customer group to warrant a model just for us. (And no, the irony is not lost on me that the current Mac Pro has far, far, far narrower appeal. It seems more an engineering study than a viable product, IMHO.)

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 01:43:25 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on March 22, 2016, 07:57:46 pmDesigning a PC "I want to put these parts in it."Building a PC "This card will only go in this slot, this plug will only go in this socket. Don't block airflow."Debugging a PC "Well that's all the drivers installed."All that takes what, 2 hours at a push?Fair enough this isn't a like for like comparison between a DIY PC and an Apple branded one and that's a failing of this video. But you can still build a none Apple PC for at most half the price with similar specs and buy one, say a ThinkStation, for at most two thirds of it.EDIT: The above is going by the price of lowest specced Mac Pro second hand in the UK. In the US I'm guessing they're cheaper and there actually isn't much in it there.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 01:53:17 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on March 23, 2016, 01:43:25 pmThat's the theory until you install your 6TB hard drive, you find out that the SATA chipset controlling the port you connected it to somehow breaks with >3TB drives even if it's not supposed to and thus isn't documented, which corrupts it, then you have to try another port that goes to a different controller, but then that one doesn't support the hotplug feature you intended to rely on... and you still have to spend 2 days properly reformatting and restoring the 6TB drive being super extra careful not to connect the backup to the broken controller. Repeat the process when 6 months later you take it apart to clean it up, change your config a bit and rearrange things while you're there, and had forgotten about the issue.One of my machines intermittently failed to boot (stayed stuck on DMI pool check) and it took me 3 days to find out why, it happens it won't boot if an USB3 hard drive is plugged in to a USB3 port at power on. Haven't found another solution than disconnecting the drives yet, and it didn't do it when it was new, maybe a BIOS upgrade broke it. Of course when you wake up in the morning, press that power button half asleep, go have a drink and come back 10 mins later hoping to find your PC ready it's stuck becasue a drive was plugged.When you buy a ready-made machine the manufacturer will have tested for weeks to find caveats and solved/avoided them. Then warranties his work to cover cases where he failed.I build my own PCs because I like doing that once in a while and I get exactly what I think I want, but it certainly isn't a guaranteed smooth ride.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 02:05:19 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on March 23, 2016, 01:43:25 pmBest case scenario, sure. Worst case is you spend weeks debugging intermittent memory failures and kernel panics, RMAing memory modules that claimed to be compatible but aren't, RMAing motherboards because of undocumented and unexpected IRQ conflicts kicking cards out of the system for no damn reason, etc.If you've never run into problems like this, then you haven't been building systems very long. They're not common, but they happen, and they suck the time away when they do.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 02:09:08 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on March 23, 2016, 01:43:25 pmThere is a difference in the level of testing, compliance testing, and certification (including software) for diy vs certified workstation configuring and testing a DIY will cost way more than the premium youd pay anyway at reasonable rate). Having said that, I do DIY because it's fun and I get exactly what I want. I know what to do if things don't work, and Im not supporting whole offices, just my own.Hardware is over priced (to me the bottom end apple pros, looks to be about $1k premium over dell workstation), but with that you get the compatibility with apples stuff. If you need the apple compatibility/features or the uniformity of the apple hardware, then that's what it costs (except a hackintosh, but no professional environment will be doing that).

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 02:16:01 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on March 23, 2016, 02:05:19 pmI have been building systems since 1994 and have not encountered these problems since 2000; I stick with high quality components that are known to work together well. This only becomes a "crap shoot" when the builder insists on using low tier parts.In regard to the Mac pro mentioned above; that computer was known to be an under-performer the day it came out.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 02:33:42 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on March 23, 2016, 02:05:19 pmI've run into problems like that, but not since setting jumpers and DIP switches was part of building a system. But I've also got to admit I learned long ago not to buy the lowest price MoBo with the kitchen sink thrown in. A lot of the time spending just £10 more on a MoBo that sounds less capable vastly improves your experience with the system.But tbh I doubt anyone on here would spend out for Xeons then think "I'm going to put them in the cheapest bargain basement motherboard I can find but want it to have every feature under the sun." I've had to talk people out of that when building systems for them though and that can be hard work.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 02:54:17 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on March 23, 2016, 02:16:01 pmNope, it happens with all of them, even the big name, big price server boards. In fact both of the examples I brought up happened with Supermicro motherboards. The one with the memory problems was a ~$600 dual Xeon server board about 4 years ago, the one with IRQ problems was a $250 Xeon workstation board about a year ago. I've been building about 5-10 workstation/server systems per year for the last decade. It doesn't matter how much you spend, undocumented incompatibilities and problems happen.

author: Denz3r
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 03:00:29 pm
content: Sorry to derail,Where are you gents finding these deals on "off-lease refurbished" workstations. Any particular website for these?

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 03:16:29 pm
content: Quote from: Denz3r on March 23, 2016, 03:00:29 pmGoogle? Even rather generic search terms like "refurbished workstations" should give you some dealers in the search result.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 03:18:51 pm
content: Quote from: Denz3r on March 23, 2016, 03:00:29 pmIf you live by a large university, go to their property disposition center. Once the service contract runs out on them, they chuck them, usually 2-3-4 years.Dell, apple, probably hp and others have their own used/refurbished/of-lease stores online.

author: Denz3r
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 03:36:20 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 23, 2016, 03:18:51 pmThanks for the ideas, I hadn't thought about the university approach.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 03:43:58 pm
content: Quote from: Denz3r on March 23, 2016, 03:36:20 pmTo clarify, chuck = cheap, not free

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 04:57:32 pm
content: Quote from: Denz3r on March 23, 2016, 03:00:29 pmMine is from Ebay, but microcenter, newegg and staples has good refurbished and off-lease deals.You still have to do your homework on what you need and what those xeon workstations have to offer for your needs.

author: vze1lryy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 05:18:18 pm
content: Quote from: Denz3r on March 23, 2016, 03:00:29 pmEvery now an then if yous tack coupon deals dell has quad core haswell core i7 workstations int he $400-$500 range. You have to be one of those people that has a browser bookmark set with the checkboxes for what you want already checked, and the twitters of all the coupons, who checks it 3 times a day. But if you do there is some really good stuff to be had every now and then.

author: ECEdesign
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 06:13:18 pm
content: PC's have always been cheaper to build for same or better specs. I like the build quality of the laptops and the design of them. I have really enjoyed OS X although in recent years they are really heavily ignoring the power user in favor of over simplistic menus. In the latest version of OS X they redesigned the disk utility to look pretty and took out RAID support. Really?I figure if OS X gets too stripped down ill go for RedHat. It seems quite nice.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 06:28:20 pm
content: Quote from: ECEdesign on March 23, 2016, 06:13:18 pmSuse fanboy but mainly a *buntu user (for the practicalities of using certain software) but I've got to say if you want the best out of the box, everything in the repos and relatively up to date and working right development environment RedHat and Fedora are the bees knees. I would even go as far as saying that for that usage case they're not just the best choice of Linux distro but possibly the best choice of OS too.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 06:39:35 pm
content: Quote from: ECEdesign on March 23, 2016, 06:13:18 pmI have had a number of apple laptops. The upgraded screens on the apple laptops are usually ahead of pc laptops. I also like the feel of the construction (but disappointed about hardware reliability, but not worse than pc laptop, just expect it to be better). I like having the option to boot into OSX for better battery life. The trackpads tend to superior too. Also the mag adapter has saved me so many times it's ridiculous.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 06:43:35 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on March 23, 2016, 06:28:20 pmCould you expand on the *buntu vs redhat/fedora?

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 06:58:03 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 23, 2016, 06:43:35 pmRHEL is a non-free server distro (yes, you have to pay a subscription fee for it). Historically it's been rock-solid, but with version 7 I think they took a step backward. Hopefully they finish working out the kinks with the systemd integration over the next couple of years to get it back to the level 6 was. CentOS is a free spinoff of RHEL that's 99% compatible and follows the same release/maintenance schedule, but doesn't come with any support.I haven't been a fan of Fedora since around version 15, stability seemed to take a nose dive after that. It's the bleeding edge testbed for Redhat, where they work out the bugs before implementing them in RHEL. It has a 6-month release cycle and only 12 months of support, so you need to reinstall pretty regularly.Ubuntu is one of the most popular distros, it has a big repository with tons of software. The default DE "Unity" is a touch-screen-oriented Metro-like POS with built-in spyware, but there are other DEs available. I despise Canonical so I stay as far away from Ubuntu as I can get. I suggest trying Mint first, as it still uses the same software repositories but it isn't affiliated with Canonical.My choice in distro is CentOS for servers/workstations where stability is what's important, and OpenSUSE for desktops/laptops where hardware compatibility and more recent software versions are what's important.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 11:51:23 pm
content: I didn't realize Fedora went south. Also wasn't aware centos and redhat were that close to each-other. Ill look into centos Thanks

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 12:33:36 am
content: Where I work, sometimes the video cards the engineers have cost as much as the computer itself.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 07:30:30 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 23, 2016, 06:43:35 pmMain advantage a *buntu has is third party support. To the extent that if you try even filing a bug report for some things and aren't running an LTS *buntu you have to jump through some right hoops to get it taken seriously. The massive repos aren't that much of an advantage either that many packages are seriously outdated or just broken. The need for PPAs, while having some advantages when done right, can break all sorts across your install. Unity isn't actually that bad if you uninstall the Amazon integration. Using a third party driver not included in the repos can be murder, but if you're happy not always having the latest GPU driver is handled well enough. That been said I almost always end up having it as my main general purpose OS because for a lot of things it just works whether it's running on my gaming rig or nasty old netbook. Never use a printer though and I'm sure they're still a problem.Fedora is unapologetically bleeding edge and makes no secret that if your install doesn't break at times you're lucky. I really like it but because of said bleeding edgeness it'll never be more than a CSs or software engineers toy.As mentioned CentOS is the best free way to get RHEL. Rock solid but can be harder work to install than Fedora or a *buntu. I run CentOS on my build servers.But the main selling point for Fedora or RHEL (and it's derivatives) for me is that the in repo cross compilers aren't just up to date with the rest of the system and don't just have decent support for libraries but actually work properly with said libraries without having to do a lot of shit by hand, which if you're going to do you might as well just build it all by hand anyway. Mingw's GCC tends to be a bit behind but that seems to just be the case with mingw anyway.

author: karoru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 09:20:52 am
content: For me the most important thing in these new Mac Pros is ridiculous form factor. Old series of Mac Pros had semi-decent tower type case where you could put at least few hard disks or whatever. I know that nowadays Apple goes with making their computers look like they're on life support when used in any serious application, but come on, it's their top-end "pro" machine and I can't even whack few cheap 1 TB harddisks inside? Even cheapest PC desktop motherboards tend to have 6 or so SATA ports and even Chinese $20 case has few 3.5" drive bays.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 09:35:31 am
content: Quote from: karoru on March 30, 2016, 09:20:52 amYeah it doesnt make sense. Most people buy a workstation for functionality. Apples response is "look at all the thunderbolt ports!". Who is going to be doing serious work with a bunch of equipment loosely connected cable connections, each needing their own power supply sources? That's the opposite of reliable, and only needed because the computer itself doesn't provide the functionality to begin with. Not to mention it destroys the compactness and efficiency they used to justify the design. Makes no sense to me. They had the design mostly right with the first gen intel MacPros imo.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 09:59:54 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 30, 2016, 09:35:31 amIt makes senseonlywithin the context I stated in an earlier post: They've designed the "new" Mac Pro as a dedicated pro video editing system. These days, film and TV production studios don't mess around with local storage. They use high-performance multi-user storage arrays (some Ethernet, some Thunderbolt) designed specifically for video use. For them, a high-performance graphics* node (which is essentially what the new Mac Pro is) makes sense. Everyone else is like "WTF??"Indeed, one of the things I love about my 2008 Mac Pro is the bunch of drive bays, so I can have my boot SSD, my media hard disk, another with Windows 7 on it, and one big hard disk for automatic backup. And I do worry about what my next system will be, given that at 8 years old, it's entirely possible for this one to just up and die**. I guess I will be buying some sort of multi-bay external drive enclosure. :/ I've also considered biting the bullet with money I don't have, and upgrading to a final-model "old" Mac Pro that at least is a few years younger.* But Apple hasn't updated the Mac Pro GPUs in ages, has it? Are the ones in it even that great any more??** To this machine's credit, at 8 years old, with just some extra RAM, an upgraded GPU, and an SSD, it performs just as well as a modern midrange Mac. It's been an incredibly good value in the long run, and I've never had a computer as stable as this one. (The only true crash, as in kernel panic, I've ever had was when a RAM module died while the machine was running.)

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 10:06:27 am
content: Copying some music onto your portable music player...Apple iTunes:188 MB, hard to use, full of bugs, full of ads, files can be wiped without notice.PC Cut 'n Paste:0 MB, easy to use, no bugs, no ads, no files lost.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 10:32:09 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on March 30, 2016, 10:06:27 am188MB vs 0MB? Huh? I can only assume you're not talking about the actual music files themselves, since they take the same space no matter how you transfer them.I gather you've only used iTunes on Windows (where it is indeed a bit buggier than on the Mac)? But regardless of platform, it's hardly "full of ads" (I don't see any), and files on the player only get "wiped without notice" if you've set it to automatically sync particular things, and something you had no longer fits the criteria. (iTunes doesn't automatically delete local files, other than the optional setting to delete watched podcasts.)The downside to manually copying files to a player is that you have to dick around with files manually, which not everyone wants to do. In contrast, using a program like iTunes, you can do things like have it automatically sync all music added within the past 3 months, and all music rated 3 stars or higher plus all music you've listened to at least 10 times. So you choose a portable player you like based on this: if you want an Apple iPod, iPhone, or iPad, then you use iTunes. If you want a different player, then you copy files manually to its memory card. In both cases, the choice of operating system and computer hardware is entirely irrelevant.None of this has anything whatsoever to do with the original question of choosing a DIY PC vs a Mac Pro. Nobody is buying a Mac Pro to host their music library — you can do that on a 5 year old used Mac mini with an external USB 2 hard disk, or a beater PC saved from the dumpster.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 11:35:21 am
content: Quote from: tooki on March 30, 2016, 09:59:54 amStill doesn't make sense because the gpus dont have a SDI port = no genlock. So for video editing, it's only good for offline tasks as a render box and editing. But the cards are under-powered too it's not even good for that. The gpus dont even have ECC (the pc version of the cards do). Also when the macpro was released, it didn't support 10bit color (it might now not sure). And the gpus are basically non upgradeable under osx. For windows you can use a eGPU but not really. And if it was a render box, youd probably select a different cpu than offered too.Really makes no sense unless you HAVE to have osx. The GPUs weremaybeattractive at release, but not anymore.Im tearing it to shreds, there might be some uses out there but for most it doesn't work out I think.To give an idea how ridiculously under-powered it is for the price, consider one could have a fully loaded pc with quad titan-x gpus (not workstation cards, but the macpro really isnt either) with 18-24 core cpus andstillcome out ahead

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 12:36:20 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 30, 2016, 11:35:21 amSome comments:1. Yes, some Windows pro graphics cards include SDI, but it's far more common for a separate interface to be used. These are typically PCIe these days, so these also exist as Thunderbolt devices (since Thunderbolt is just PCIe protocol over the DisplayPort physical interface). So if a Mac is to be used with Final Cut Pro for broadcast, it's common to add a Thunderbolt SDI interface. But I'm pretty sure most video editing is done offline, without SDI. Broadcast is a very specific subset of video editing.2. The 10.11.1 update to OS X added deep color support if the hardware is capable of it (finally). (Many people installed the update and found their setup to suddenly be running in deep color mode, since any halfway recent GPU supports it. It's now usually the displays that don't support deep color.)3. The GPUs in the Mac Pro are essentially not upgradeable, but that's because they're a weird form factor. It has nothing to do with OS X, which has supported off the shelf GPUs since the 10.8.5 update. You don't get the nifty Apple logo on startup when you use a PC graphics card, but once the OS has loaded the graphics drivers, they spring to life and work using native drivers. (I use an unmodified PC AMD HD7970 in my 2008 Mac Pro, and it works perfectly.)4. The primary difference between "pro" and "gaming" graphics cards on Windows is — other than the presence of additional ports sometimes — the drivers. The GPU chips themselves are identical, but on Windows, there's a huge difference between the gaming drivers that have had the living daylights optimized out of them for speed, at the expense of stability and mathematical accuracy. The pro drivers on the other hand are optimized for stability and accuracy, but dispense with the speed optimizations. On the Mac, we don't have gaming drivers at all — we're always running the pro drivers, in essence. That's why on the Mac, many pro 3D apps like Maya run on consumer GPUs, while the same app demands a pro GPU on Windows. ECC VRAM is certainly desirable (especially for non-graphics compute tasks), but I can only surmise it's not essential for video rendering.In essence, Apple built a box optimized for Final Cut Pro, which is (as far as I can tell) much more efficient than other editing suites (regardless of platform), insofar as it's so good at leveraging hardware acceleration that it usually ends up doing in real-time what other programs have to render after the fact.For any task other than video editing, the new Mac Pro simply makes no sense whatsoever.

author: karoru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 02:03:58 pm
content: Yup, and now Apple sadly doesn't have any general-purpose workstation computer (which first generation of Mac Pros were). So sadly I stay with combination of homebrew Hackintosh workstation (pretty easy to get if you just stay with Intel & NVIDIA, hasn't got any compatibility issues yet and I started using it with Mountail Lion) and cheapest Mac Mini there's available if I have to use developer account. I just can't get into modern cool & hip Ruby or whatever developer lifestyle that works on Macbook Pro on life support drinking vegan drinks & sitting on beanie bag. Get us old chaps proper beige boxes, clicky keyboards and workplaces where at least one people has a suit!

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 03:46:58 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on March 30, 2016, 12:36:20 pm1. Genlocking an external box is not the same as genlocking the gpu(s) and you don't get framelocking. External SDI solution is usually also not the same.2. Yep I see they finally enabled last october. windows has had it since 20093. Not really. You can only do that if there are drivers for it in osx. Neither Nvidia or Amd provide official osx drivers for their modern cards outside of apple cards. Since apple doesn't either outside of the cards they use...you dont get native support. Some cards partially work with experimental drivers, but they are littered with problems (partially because non of the software devs expect to have to check for compatibility with the cards). This wasn't the case back in the day when the 1st gen mac pros dominated because native drivers were available and developers expected to see the cards. You might be able to do if you boot into windows and use a egpu, but already mention it and what's the point.4. Yes and no. Some of the functions on a pro card will be slowed down compared to a gaming card for the reasons you said (but also because they want$unfortunately] BUT the pro cards also contain many speedups the consumer cards dont have (gamestypically don't need them, so most never see it). Maya run fine on consumer cards in Windows, but it is hit or miss for many applications like you say. Also, the apple drivers are not operating in full 'pro driver' modes btw. If you get an apple with a consumer graphics card, you don't get things like fast double precision calcs like the pro hardware. I don't doubt apple opts for stable drivers over iffy drivers though.QuoteI don't disagree with this at all. Developers have serious problems trying to support all the available hardware for PCs, even for professional applications (in fact many provide support for only nvidia or amd or specific cards.... which is really annoying). You're much less likely to run into that on an apple.Fact is though, if you drop 10k on an apple mac pro (current gen) hardware, and 10k on a pc hardware, you're almost always better off in terms of hardware on the pc. And the better hardware usually more than makes up for any optimization differences. You only come out ahead on the apple if you need the uniformity of apple.....definitely a lot more screwing around on windows machines. Also I don't dislike apple, I own several (macbook pros, 1 gen macpro)....but the trashcan macpro sucks imo.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 06:42:54 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 30, 2016, 03:46:58 pm2. Yeah I know. Didn't you notice I wrote "finally" on that?It was long overdue.3. Are we talking about different things? Cuz as I just told you, that's not true. With the exception of a some very new GPUs, you absolutelycanjust take any old Windows graphics card with an AMD or NVIDIA GPU, plunk it in your (non-cylindrical) Mac Pro, and it will just work. Itisnative support, because Apple simply changed its AMD and NVIDIA drivers to allow them to work on non-Apple cards. This has been the case for years now!! For example, my HD7970 shows up in "About This Mac" as "AMD Radeon HD 7xxx 3072MB". It works perfectly, showing full support in an OpenGL tester, and even supporting Metal (using a test app that hasonlyMetal support, no OpenGL) in El Capitan.Which devs are you referring to, who need to check for compatibility?4. Hm, you're right about Maya, now at least. Years ago it was different, it did not support gaming cards at all.Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 30, 2016, 03:46:58 pmQuote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 30, 2016, 03:46:58 pmThat's exactly why people choose them, both for home and for business: they want to do workusingthe computer, not working on the computer's own issues!

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 09:30:00 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on March 30, 2016, 06:42:54 pmSorry, I didnt mean to sound rude (I read it and it sounds rude ), Ive been up for over 24 hrs2. My point about 10 bit color was that if Apples are to be comparable to PCs workstations, then they need to support basic workstation features at the time of adoption by the industry. Otherwise they're behind relative to PC hardware. For 10bit color, they are still behind because theyjustgot 10 bit color, most professional mac programs havent caught up yet except for a select few such as photoshop.3. I think we are talking about different things. The thread was started on modern macpros vs pc equivalents. The first gen intel macpro stopped being sold in 2012 and is not up to date. As I mentioned, the 1st gen macpros didn't have the issue with compatibility with older graphics cards (and I liked the macpro 1st gen). However, the second gen macpros do have major issues...you cant put one in. If one goes the egpu route, then you have to use experimental unsupported drivers for modern graphics cards, usually with major issues. That's not comparable to a workstation PC (except for maybe between early major windows releases).For hardware, the current macpro offerings do not compare to current workstation PCs (what the thread is about).QuoteAnd I don't disagree.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 10:19:28 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 30, 2016, 03:46:58 pmPerhaps at the top end if you're building with off the shelf parts sourced from the lowest price suppliers, but the $3000 and $4000 (USD) price points of the preconfigured mac pros are very comparable with the Dell and HP workstations using Xeon E5 processors with ECC ram. Remembering here that the mac pro was released and priced at the end of 2013, there has been no change in the price since then, which makes it rather amazing that Dell and HP aren't able to offer something now at a big discount.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2016, 12:55:22 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 30, 2016, 09:30:00 pmI don't mean to be rude, but it seems there's no pleasing you.2. So the fact that Apple added it late makes it meaningless that they added it at all? (AFAIK, it's taken but a mere few months for many pro applications to add support, but I don't think Photoshop is among them quite yet, it's been promised for "the next update".) Even Apple doesn't have a time machine with which to go back and add support earlier.3. First you said it's an OS issue. I replied "nope, drivers work, in the new Mac Pro it's a physical incompatibility". Second you say it's drivers, I repeat that the drivers work, and now third, you agree that the drivers work but that it's a physical incompatibility. I'm pretty sure that's what I said all along.As a little aside, what you're calling the 2nd gen Mac Pro is actually the 6th generation. I can understand why you might lump all the tower form-factor Mac Pros together, but convention in the Mac world is that there were 5 generations of tower Mac Pros, making the cylindrical one 6th gen. The "model identifier" in the firmware follows this convention as well, calling the cylindrical one "MacPro6,1". (Most commonly, they're referred to by their year of release, e.g. my 3rd gen MacPro3,1 is a "2008 Mac Pro".)

author: Philfreeze
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2016, 09:17:04 am
content: Quote from: Homer J Simpson on March 22, 2016, 04:27:13 pmAnd I don't want to protect Apple from a flame war because frankly, I don't care as long as I can buy whatever I want and nobody comes to my house and steals my Macbook.But still, compare any PC from early 2013 with a current one and it will be slower. That is just how technology works. At the time it was a superb product but now it isn't anymore, it is outdated.The thing is, even when it is slower and costs more it is absolutely reasonable to say it costs so much because of its size and because it so so silent with this size.Try to build a computer with the same size and the same power and you will see that it isn't that easy. (granted MSI has its Vortex which is similar but again, it is newer (release 2016) and still bigger).And guys please don't just hate on a company because you think it isn't worth it. Some people just like that it just works out of the box without a problem and that the product usually work pretty long (and they regularly update even old devices). Some people are okay with paying more for this reason, that doesn't mean they are right or wrong they just value things differently.

author: Philfreeze
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2016, 09:30:14 am
content: Quote from: Someone on March 30, 2016, 10:19:28 pmThat is actually quite a good point to show how some people seem to just hate apple because they hate apple and not because they did something bad...

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2016, 01:41:13 pm
content: Quote from: Philfreeze on March 31, 2016, 09:30:14 amNot really, the bottom end macpros have d300 cards which are crippled w5000 workstation cards. You can't even order machines from dell or hp with those cards anymore and you would want to because they dont support opengl 4.4 or 2.0 opencl apis plus a whole host of other things anyway.For $3000 from Dell, I can configure a 6 core E5 (macpro 4 core), 16gb ram DDR4 (macpro 12gb DDR3), dual w5100 gpus (macpro dual crippled w5000), pcie 256gb drive (mac pro same).Compared to current macpros, you get a much better hardware for the same price going PC, even on the bottom end (and sky rockets as you go up)Quote from: Philfreeze on March 31, 2016, 09:17:04 amJust to be clear, the thread was about the current macpro vs pc equivalents price/performance. They don't stand up to pc offerings and the formfactor doesn't make sense for majority of workstation setups. It wasn't meant to be a flame war against apples (I like Apples, own several. The Apple uniformity was already mentioned as definitely a plus).Quote from: tookiI firmly believe the current macpro hardware offerings are behind relative to other offerings on the market.Quote from: tookiIt's not meaningless. But the point, and ive already stated this, is that the recent addition of 10bit is 1. way behind 2. not currently useful outside of like two applications because osx based software has caught up for it yet. That's not the case on the PC.Quote from: tookiThat's not what I said. I don't agree with you that one can get a reasonable setup on current gen macpros. I said you can partially do it thru an eGPU but why would you want to. You'll be paying up the nose to do it. You're limited to thunderbolt 2.0, so multigpuconfig is out. You be stuck with unsupported or experimental drivers (if they're available). You'll be stuck with software that doesn't support the cards because they don't expect to see them. Ive already looked into this and it's littered with problems. It wasn't as much a problem for the 1st gen macs, but the 2nd gen (what the thread is on) it is a problems and very few people do it because of that. For workstations, it's not a reasonable option.Quote from: tookiThe model identifier is not != the generation. The model identifier is used by apple to differentiate small hardware differenceswithin a generation"1st generation macpro" includes all model identifiers from "1.1 to 5.1" "2nd generation macpro" is "6.1" model identifier plus possibly more in the future. This is standard nomenclature across apple products.

author: Philfreeze
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2016, 02:41:34 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 31, 2016, 01:41:13 pmI didn't check the prices and just assumed Someone knew what he was saying.Yeah by now the MacPro is way too expensive and I would definetly buy a pc but at the start it was somewhat competitive (if you exclude the usual Apple premium tax)The formfactor of a normal PC isn't a problem but if you are a designer you probably appreciate the nice design and the small size. Also, I wouldn't say the Macpro was build for companies but more for semi professional/ professional use at home.And I didn't mean to say you just stupidely hated against Apple but some people in this thread this but I should have wrote this a bit clearer, my fault.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2016, 03:06:07 pm
content: I don't see what people see in Apple stuff. Ok, ale the product design is nice. The innards of Mac desktops are beautifully designed and fit together nicely. It sure feels like a premium product... Same as $5k audio cables.Nobody in the industry where faster rendering = more money gives a shit about how the machine looks on the inside. It has to be fast.That's probably why Apple doesn't go into really pro segment of the market. Nice product design and premium brand mumbo-jumbo don't matter. Performance matters and that's it.Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 01:32:20 am
content: Quote from: Philfreeze on March 31, 2016, 02:41:34 pmI did check the pricing, and again based on the above statement, still there aren't greatly cheaper options from Dell or HP. I cant configure a Dell 5000 series for dual GPUs but they still price similar, and the 7000 series with comparable speed processors (3.7x4C and 3.5x6C) price in around the same as a mac pro. Dell offer some discount processor options below 3GHz (and below 2GHz!) which can greatly reduce the price as the CPU is a very large component of the final cost, but the 16xx series in the 5000 line are simple comparisons.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 02:06:30 am
content: Quote from: Someone on April 01, 2016, 01:32:20 amI think you may not be understanding the hardware differences.6 coreV3vs 4V2cpu is a big difference. If you want you can go 4 cores V3 on dell... it's even cheaper....but why?The dual video cards from dell arew5100, not the crippled dualw5000on macpro. That's a huge difference (4gb ram vs 2gb ram, much faster rendering, faster opencl compute, opengl 4.4 vs 4.2, opencl 2.0 vs 1.2,etc...) The w5000 are old enough that they are not sold by dell anymoreYou get16 gbof ram vs12 gbram. The ram is dd4 instead vs ddr3. And it's faster2133mhzvs1866mhzFor $100 less than the macpro, you getmuchbetter hardware

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 06:23:18 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 02:06:30 amYou dont show whats associated with that pricing, I cannot find any 5000 series dells with the option for dual video cards (if thats important to the buyer). Dell offer more choice but they price out similar to the mac pro's for the same configurations.The benchmarks dont show any great advancements going from a 1620 V2 to a V3, and a budget priced 6 core E5-2620 @ 2.4GHz still comes in similar benchmarks to the 4 core 1620's.So you've yet to find any massive savings compared to a computer thats more than 2 years old!

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 07:19:52 am
content: Quote from: Someone on April 01, 2016, 06:23:18 amDell 4core config, cpu 1630 not 1620:Dell 6core config cpu 1650 @ 3.5Ghz not 2.4Ghz:Passmark

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 07:56:26 am
content: Now you've included all the details, I think people can make up their own minds.

author: Philfreeze
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 08:05:45 am
content: Okay I did it myself.Apple MacPro:3.7GHz 4xCore CPU (Xeon E5-1620 v2?)16GB DDR3 1866MHz EEC RAM512GB PCIe SSD2x AMD FirePro D300 (2GB VRAM)GB EthernetMagic Mouse 2Apple KeyboardPrice: 3983 CHF (swiss franks) / 4147USDDell Precision Tower 5000:3.5GHz 4xCore CPU (Xeon E5-1620 v3)16GB DDR4 2133MHz EEC RAM400GB PCIe SSD (Intel® DC P3700)2x AMD Firepro W5100 (4GB VRAM)GB EthernetDell KeyboardDell USB MousePrice: 3954 CHF (swiss franks) / 4117 USDSo they cost pretty much the same and I think I managed to configure them relatively comparable.The Dell GPUs have more VRAM but they are slower (according to CompuBench).The Dell PC has a lower clocked but newer CPU which should balance itself out.The Dell PC has DDR4 RAM but that doesn't really make any difference (higher clockrate on RAM is most of the time not that important).The Apple MacPro has WLAN and the Dell PC probably not (?)And finally the biggest difference, the Dell PC has 400GB SSD storage instead of 512GB BUT it would be possible to use a 512GB M.2 SSD (x8) which would drop the price by about 700USD and it shouldn't really matter.Conclusion:They are priced about the same. The big difference is what you want. Do you want a small and minimalistic trashcan or do you want a modding friendly ATX tower.I would probably still go for the Dell Tower but the Apple PC isn't priced that badly at all.Edit: fixed typos

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 09:13:06 am
content: Quote from: Philfreeze on April 01, 2016, 08:05:45 amPlease explain something for the dell, the only difference between your configuration and mine is the PCIe drive and nic (mine had 500gb regular selected)...... but somehow you got a $1,500 increase in price...?I think something maybe wrong in your configAlso the cpu you selected "3.5GHz 3xCore CPU (Xeon E5-1620 v3)"... doesn't exist , the comparable cpus dell offers - the 3.7 4 core E5-1630 or V3 or the 3.5 6 core 1650 V3 So take a look there[edit I see the difference, your config has a DCP3700 which is an enterprise SSD rated for 50+ petabyte wear rating and costs $1000-$1500, the MacPro doesn't have that. You can just throw in a 512GB PCIe card is ~$310 from newegg.... so going the dell is significantly cheaper... and you get an additional backup drive).Quote from: Philfreeze on April 01, 2016, 08:05:45 amYouve compared a single w5100 to dual d300s... (the site doesn't list w5100 in dual config).Also the benchmark site.... If you click to see number of users who actually benchmarked the d300 card on the site... you find two. You don't get a good survey with that. You'll find the tests performed by 50+ users with the results set to the median (rather than the top single point) by clicking herehttps://compubench.com/compare.jsp?benchmark=compu15d&did1=22279290&os1=OS+X&api1=cl&hwtype1=dGPU&hwname1=AMD+Radeon+HD+-+FirePro+D300+Compute+Engine&D2=AMD+FirePro+W5100....and because it's a single w5100 vs dual d300, you have to correct by 80-100%.... the dual w5100s are faster than d300s (which is what one would expect since the d300s are toned down w5000s instead of the next gen sequels - W5100s) .Also the apis they are using for benchmarking...they're years old.QuoteLikely does if you're doing certain types of compute work (Im my case it almost certainly does, since large matrices manipulations in FEA).

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 09:45:58 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 09:13:06 amDon't be stupid. Of course theXeon E5-1620 v3does exist, and Dell offers it for the Precision 5000 (there might be differences in regional offers, though). It is of course a 4 core CPU and it should be rather obvious that Philfreeze made a typo when writing "3xCore" (since Intel never produced any tri-core Xeon, afaik...)

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 09:53:57 am
content: Quote from: elgonzo on April 01, 2016, 09:45:58 amOk.... I dont get why youre being rude.Im wrong, the point was there is a possible configuration error. Especially since he configured for a 3.5ghz for the Dell, while the MacPro has a 3.7Ghz.. even though a 3.7 is available from dell. The 3c typo makes it really confusing since he could have configure for a 6 core 3.5 or a 4c 3.7 or a 4c 3.5

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 10:01:24 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 09:13:06 amDell offer wildly different pricing worldwide, and the systems you priced included deep discounts in their price. Even with the discounts the difference in price/performance between them isnt that much, the apple products are amazingly priced to the market quite well (usually this late into a refresh they are poor value).

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 10:04:49 am
content: Quote from: Someone on April 01, 2016, 10:01:24 amI could toltally see different pricing in different regions, but I think that's not what's happened here. He configured for a DCP3700 which is an enterprise SSD rated for 50+ petabyte wear rating and costs $1000-$1500, the MacPro doesn't have that. You can just throw in a 512GB PCIe card ~$310 from newegg. Youd have that plus a 512gb backup drive (and still cheaper)I just tried configuring the dell on UK site... and it's actually cheaper by a few hundred $. But I think you're right in certain places the price could jump.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 10:12:36 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 09:53:57 amI did not mean to be rude and offend you. I am sorry.Anway, the Dell is rather expensive. This has not so much to do with the cost of the technology per se, but rather the way how their workstations are being customized. Most additional components that can be added to the base configuration come with a healthy mark-up. Add a PCIe SSD to your configuration (the Mac Pro uses an PCIe SSD), and see the price rise. Theoretically, due to the mark-up on add-on components a comparable Dell workstation will roughly cost the same as a Mac Pro. In reality, however, there will always be some difference in price and performance because it is not possible to choose components for the Dell which are exactly the same as found in the Mac Pro....That said, the ability to adjust the Dell (or HP, Fujitsu, etc...) workstation configuration for particular application scenarios (which is not really possible with the Mac Pro) makes it possible to spend the money exactly on those components you benefit most from. This means that a configurable Dell workstation will in most cases offer more bang for the buck (with regard to your needs) than an uncustomizable Mac Pro (with the obvious exception being those application scenarios the Mac Pro is specifically designed for).Which essentially also means that comparing the two by price only is a misleading comparison...

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 10:22:16 am
content: Quote from: elgonzo on April 01, 2016, 10:12:36 amI don't think it's being stupid not correctly seeing every processor available out of many. It was a mistake, but that's not being stupid. Sorry I took it as being rude though if it wasn't meant to be.If you read the thread, you can configure the Dell to be nearly exactly with small improvements over the same MacPro except the video cards (Apples are based on w5000 cards, the dell is based on w5100s which are the successor to the w5000s (better hardware)). The pcie ssd you might have to pickup from newegg, but you get and additional backup drive with it. You come out cheaper with much better hardware.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 10:30:30 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 10:22:16 amAhh... i should get some fresh air.After i wrote my last post but unfortunately not before you were able to reply, i realized that my "But how would you call what you did there?" was a rather snide remark that was uncalled for. Well, i deleted it, but too lateI have to apologize for this. I am truly sorry about it. If our paths ever cross, i owe you a beer or two. And now i will let the internet be the internet, get outside and grab some early lunch...

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 10:36:58 am
content: Quote from: elgonzo on April 01, 2016, 10:30:30 amlol, the part I wrote "Sorry for being so stupid" I actually took out right before you posted back because I thought it sounded rude too or whatever. So kinda funny, cheers

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 05:28:19 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 31, 2016, 01:41:13 pmNobody's disputingthat. My comment referred to the fact that even when Apple addresses a complaint, you're still unhappy, as in the following example.Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 31, 2016, 01:41:13 pmOK,so what should Apple do to please you?Because obviously what they've done so far has not. (I've also since learned that the Photoshop update with 30-bit display support came out a few months ago already. It's actually proving to be really hard to find info on which apps have and haven't been updated. :/ )Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 31, 2016, 01:41:13 pmI was disputing your claim that OS X doesn't support any graphics cards other than ones Apple shipped. That just isn't true. I don't know how much clearer I can be than I have been on this point, given that I've laid it out in excruciating detail for you in prior posts. We are clearly discussing two unrelated issues.Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 31, 2016, 01:41:13 pmMy apologies, I should have been clearer that I was talking about the Mac Pro line specifically, where indeed the major number in the machine IDdoesmatch up neatly to its generation. Now, I do see that the wiki article on the Mac Pro follows your nomenclature, but as a long-time Mac professional, I can assure you that in Mac tech forums and the like, that's not how we refer to them. (The most common way, as I said, is by their year.) It's non-Mac publications that deemed the 2013 model to be second-generation, but in the Mac world, we'd been calling prior tower Mac Pros "second generation" for years (mostly to refer to the 2007 refresh, sometimes to refer to the 2008 model that was a major architectural upgrade).Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 31, 2016, 01:41:13 pmThat's just not true as any kind of blanket statement.To give you an idea of how the model identifiers do and don't correlate to particular products, take a look at this comprehensive list:http://www.everymac.com/systems/by_capability/mac-specs-by-machine-model-machine-id.htmlThe difference between, for example, a PowerMac2,1 (late 1999 15" CRT iMac G3) and PowerMac8,2 (mid-2005 17 or 20" LCD iMac G5) is not a "small hardware difference" as you suggest.It's a sort of major-minor numbering system, where the number after the comma can indicate either a variant within the same family (such as screen size) or a refresh to the product model — Apple's usage is not particularly consistent. The major number tends to change when there's an update to the system architecture, completely irrespective of whether it gets a new external design or not (for example, the Power Mac G4's PowerMac1,1 to PowerMac3,1 switch (remember, PowerMac2,1 was the iMac) which was a massive architectural change but identical housing). Similarly, if the external design changes, but the architecture doesn't, the major number may stay the same (for example, PowerMac3,5 to PowerMac3,6).

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 06:49:23 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 01, 2016, 05:28:19 pmI feel like you're unhappy lol. I pretty clearly stated "It's not meaningless" that Apple added 10 bit support.... but it's late and, as a result for now, only 2 programs I am aware of actually support it on mac (pohotoshop is one of the two programs I was referring to about supporting 10 bit btw). This is not the case on the PC hardware, as windows has supported 10bit for near a decade. Saying MacPro has equivalent 10bit support to a PC, when almost no applications support 10bit on the Mac, is not a fair comparison; applications still have catching up to do on the mac (and Im sure they will at some point).(Also as I mentioned, I own several macs (and 10bit monitors + TV)... Iwant10bit to be supported by applications on apple)Quote from: tooki on April 01, 2016, 05:28:19 pmI didnt say you can't, but it's generally riddled with problems except for select cards on the 2nd gen mac pro. Want to drop in a Titan X? Welcome to hell. Want to add a high end mutlicard installation... you can't reasonably because thunderbolt 2.0 can't handle it. Quadro, welcome to beta level drivers. Even if it works, it's still totally unsupported by most professional applications because they don't expect to see non apple configured hardware. Doing weird stuff like that defeats the purpose of purchasing a workstation in the first place. Even if you got around all of that, you're paying tons of cash to do it.Quote from: tooki on April 01, 2016, 05:28:19 pmIt's what the rest of the internet uses. And it was pretty clear what we were talking about.Quote from: tooki on April 01, 2016, 05:28:19 pmI didn't say it before, but I thought you were possibly being unnecessarily difficult in your former post on naming conventions... Don't care about naming systems for 10-20 year old computers computers and I think it was pretty clear what were were walking about.Im done putting time into the discussion thoughHave our own conclusions. Lets agree to disagree, and let it be that.

author: Philfreeze
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 09:38:21 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 09:13:06 amI tried to simulate someone who doesn't want to change any parts and they want (for some reason) a PCIe drive. Below the specs I wrote that it would cost about 700$ less if you choose an M.2 drive and it wouldn't make a difference (at least I tried to write that; I wrote accidently should instead of shouldn't).The 3x3.5GHz was just a typo. It should be 4x3.5GHz, the partnumber is right though.That is right I compared a singe GPU to a dual one on the benchmark. That was stupid from me, sorry.Everything matters if you do "certain" things but generally speaking as in "for most applications" it doesn't matter when the RAM has a higher clk.So in the end the Dell workstation offers the same performance for about 1000$-1500$ less. Which makes it clearly superior which means that Apple should drop the price of the Macbook by around 500$-1000$. Then I could see it being somewhat competitive. Like I previous said, you pay also for the form factor and the design and not only for the components (see smarthphones to prove my point). This means the MacPro will always cost more than a comparable tower.