Products not properly certified E.g " UL, CSA' etc - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: tech5940
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 02:21:31 am
content: Hello,After watching one of Dave's video's on poorly made power supply's I started to pay attention to the products I was buying and began to check that they had proper certifications for use in my country (Canada) . I was shocked at the amount of products that either have the wrong certification for my local province or don't have any recognized certification at all. This is something I might expect if I was ordering direct from China but that's not the case. I had purchased a battery charger online (from a very large well recognized online retailer) it ended up only being "CE" marked which is not recognized in my province. I ordered a Weller soldering iron from (one of the largest parts suppliers' Canadian web store) and the one they shipped me was "UL" listed but Canada requires it to be "cUL" or "cULus". They were excellent and processed the return free of charge and even paid the return shipping (they also removed it from the Canadian website) . I've even found products on the shelves of local reputable stores without the proper certifications. I'm not including the names of the stores/sites because I'm not trying to give them a bad name that's not the point of this post.This brings me to my next quest and that is to find a reasonably priced bench power supply which is certified for use in Canada. This will likely rule out some of the cheapest china ones. I've come across a Extech 382202 but even on Extech's own website I can't find any information as to what certification it has. I'm trying to stay under $150, and there are lots in that price point from China but I run into the same problem, they either aren't certified OR in the documentation it doesn't list what certifications it has. I sometimes luck out and there is a picture of the LABEL on the back of the unit which helps.I've attached a image which shows the accepted marks for use in my province and there are quite a few but i'm still finding products all over the place which don't have the proper marks. Curios to hear if others from around the world are experiencing similar problems? Is it like this in other parts of the world or is it just that Canada has extra strict requirements?Also does anyone know what happens when you make the product yourself for your own use ? I was considering making a bench power supply but I can't find any clear indication if i'm allowed to make a mains connected device without getting it inspected. Yes I could get it inspected but a single visit from the Electrical Safety Authority who are allowed to field certify equipment would likely run me 100's of dollars.I posted this out of curiosity to see if others are experiencing the same issues, at the end of the day before I purchase a power supply i'm just going to have to email the retailer/manufacturer to check if its suitable for my Country or not.Great forum by the way, I came across this through Dave's YouTube channel (which I've been binge watching ever since I found it a month or so ago)

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 03:36:36 am
content: Can I ask why you're so anal that it must have your specific approval mark?I assure you if it's a legitimate product with a CE or UL mark it will be quite acceptable.

author: tech5940
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 03:40:56 am
content: Mostly for safety and for fear of liability should there be a fire or harm to someone caused by using a uncertified device. I'm assuming these laws are in place for a reason.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 03:42:14 am
content: Quote from: tech5940 on February 18, 2015, 03:40:56 amSafety is not a concern if the product is otherwise certified. As for liability, who's going to be using it? If it's not in a business or public setting..

author: tech5940
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 03:51:44 am
content: Well it's not a public setting but it is a multi dwelling residential building so should something go wrong and there was a fire it's not just me I have to worry about.I agree if something is UL certified it's likely of decent quality, but If that's the case why is the government requiring a separate certification. If something does go wrong the first thing that's going to be pointed out is it wasn't approved for use in Canada.As for CE my understanding is that it is a manufacturer self declared marking to say a product meets European standards which is specifically not accepted in Canada (well Ontario, I'm really not sure about the rest of the Country)Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 04:56:13 am
content: An excellent question. You should write to your local legislature (seriously -- do!).Tim

author: Richard Head
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 05:54:11 am
content: I was under the impression that Canadian products had to carry the CSA stamp of approval.

author: tech5940
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 05:59:50 am
content: CSA is the main one but the image I attached in my first post includes the other accepted testing agencies for Ontario, Canada.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 06:11:33 am
content: Actually tech5940 is not being paranoid. This is not tinfoil hot problem. In Canada, most if not all, insurance companies look for a way of not paying anything f they can. OK, maybe it is a bit paranoidIf you look at how many people have discovered that their AC-USB charger is a death trap waiting to catch fire, I would be a bit concerned with proper safety certifications too.tech5940: remember you have choices; price, quality, and safety. Pick any two, you can't have all three.I would trust a UL tested product but remember that many factories will just stick on third party certs that are fakes. If you are as concerned as you appear, then buy from a big retailer that can't be caught with its pants down. Look at Digikey or Electrosonic.

author: wagon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 06:14:01 am
content: It's also not illegal if you aren't caught.In all seriousness, have a look inside it, if it looks well made it probably is.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 06:50:08 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on February 18, 2015, 06:11:33 amI seem to recall being told that you can look up any UL number on their website to see if it is genuine or not.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 06:53:17 pm
content: Quote from: Neilm on February 18, 2015, 06:50:08 pmLikewise for most large certification agencies (ie TUV and the like).

author: tech5940
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 07:01:06 pm
content: Has anyone ever successfully found an item on the online search? I've tried several with no luck. And these are items I believe are genuine (from large well recognized manufacturers) they make it sound like you can just punch in the number listed by the symbol but in my experience I'm yet to get it to work.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

author: CM800
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 07:40:42 pm
content: Not to mention, It's completely legal to own any of these products, the regulations prevent it beings SOLDElse you wouldn't be able to make any electronic stuff yourself, no hobbyist stuff, product development wouldn't be possible as anything you made would be illegal etc etc.If it has CE, UL or BS then It is fine, unless it is a fake logo.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 08:03:26 pm
content: I suspect you'll be the only person to ever actually care, let alone go to some lengths to check, whether or not a product bears an approval mark that's on that particular list. Bureaucrats notwithstanding, of course.Is your concern that your local standards are actually "higher" in some sense? Many safety standards are virtually identical; for example, UL 60950 is very similar indeed to IEC 60950, and although regional variations do exist, they tend to apply to countries which have specific issues in their electrical infrastructure.A (genuine) UL mark implies that UL themselves are underwriting the safety of the product, and it's highly debatable whether a "cUL" mark means any greater degree of safety than a "UL" mark without the 'c'.A CE mark doesn't give the same indication that ongoing factory inspections are taking place, and whether or not you trust the manufacturer is up to you. You may be able to request a copy of the Technical File that manufacturers are required to maintain, and which may include copies of test reports which are every bit as thorough as those you'd get from UL. But, of course, CE marks don't carry the same legal status in North America as they do in Europe and some other parts of the world, even though a (valid) CE mark actually indicates compliance to a wider range of safety, EMC and other standards than most other marks.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 08:19:00 pm
content: The fake logo question is a significant problem. A few years ago one of the TV networks had a story about fake, holographic CSA stickers showing up on some of the cheap Chinese stuff coming into Canada. The government was not amused.Another complication is the bizarre nature of some of the equipment we use. Some of it COULD NOT receive normal certification due to the function that it has to perform. For example, can you imagine trying to certify a power supply that puts out 500V at 1 amp? They have to put a weasel clause on the sticker that says something like "for use by qualified personnel". How do we prove that we're qualified?Ed

author: jlmoon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 08:21:18 pm
content: Speaking of ratings, logos and certifications, not all power strips are equal, I have seen a few power strips or taps that have thermally failed. I will only use Tripp-Lite "IsoBar"s and APC rack strips.I wouldn't trust those "Chineesy" looking power strips either you get from your major discount houses. They can be trouble looking for a place to happen.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 08:27:16 pm
content: So what makes YOUR (unidentified) province so much smarter than the Canadian national government?I suspect the "reasons" are political/economic and have nothing to do with safety.How many building fires are reported in your mystery province that were traced to improperly-certified electrical gear? ANY?

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 08:37:36 pm
content: Quote from: tech5940 on February 18, 2015, 03:40:56 amThese markings are not 'laws', but indications of compliance with a set of standards (not always 'safety' - but that is often included as part of a larger test suite. (e.g. RFI, EMC etc)If you are seriously demanding compliance to Canadian standards (which may be a good thing - I don't know), then you need to do some research into what the various 'marks' mean (and they all have sub-classes as well... potentially hundreds of compliance categories in all).The hardest part for you is that many products may haveneverbeen submitted to CA authorities for testing and certification - so they will never have you local approval in itself - but may exceed the CA standards - particularly the highly reputable testing labs.The generic UL for example - AFAIK - means it won't burn your house down, but may cause other problems. as it's not a technical compliance standard, but an assessment of risk for underwriting liability. (sort of joking)

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 09:23:12 pm
content: CE means nothing at all. Anyone can slap on a CE sticker, the artwork is readily available.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 09:38:55 pm
content: A CE mark is a legal document which states that the product is compliant with all applicable European directives. It's no more or less valid than any other mark.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 10:21:28 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on February 18, 2015, 09:38:55 pmWith UL and CSA you need to send the actual product in for testing and pay them for that testing. The CE mark does not require that does it?On the other hand CE covers all electronics not just those powered by the mains. A cordless mouse need not be UL or CSA approved for sale in North America but does need to be CE approved for sale in Europe.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 10:35:47 pm
content: It may work a bit differently in Canadia... but a couple of points-The UL and CSA standards are virtually identical, if not exactly identical, for the categories I've looked at. Honestly, it's a money grab more than anything else. UL/Intertek will happily charge you a 20% premium to do CSA testing while they do their UL testing. Canada isn't populous enough and doesn't have enough of a home grown market to come up with their own standards that are different than everywhere else... so from what I am familiar with, if it meets UL, it meets CSA.-In the USA, not being UL listed doesn't prevent an item being sold, nor does it prevent an item being used. Most localities adopt the NEC (national electrical code) which may require UL listing in some places. Also, localities can extend the NEC and add that parts need to be UL listed. Many inspectors would not sign off on a job using non-UL listed parts, and some electricians would refuse to install them in the first place.-As for liability, I don't think an insurance company could deny a claim on this basis, at least they wouldn't win in court if they tried to do so. There is no requirement that consumers purchase only UL listed products, and it would be a long shot for them to claim the consumer knew (or should have known) the product was unlisted and therefore potentially dangerous.I'm not suggesting certifications don't matter, but they are sort of a minimum standard of safety and suitability, not a guarantee of quality or overall safety. Personally I wouldn't bat an eye if something was UL but not CSA or vice versa and certainly wouldn't bother anyone selling something that's UL listed but not CSA... depending on what the item is I wouldn't even think it's illegal to sell a non-CSA listed item, although I'm not an expert on Canada law, so maybe it would be.

author: Pjotr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 11:09:10 pm
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on February 18, 2015, 10:21:28 pmNo, not directly. A CE mark is the whole and only the responsibility of the manufacturer. With a CE mark the manufacturer garantees the product conforms to the applicable EN standards. That's it, it is not a certificate by itself.But........... the manufacturer has to prove with solid test rapports that the product conforms to the applicable EN standards when requested. And for that he needs an accredited test house for a valid prove of conformance. This only comes in in case of a conflict. If the manufacturer cannot prove conformance with solid test rapports, he must withdraw the product from the market.Some (small) manufacturers do their best to conform to the standards but cannot afford the money for an accredited test house and take the risk ofNOTbeing asked. That by itself is not illegal. But of coarse they run into problems when they are asked: They have to provide the documents within 14 days officially. But don't be worried, al major companies do solid conformance testing and often have the "Declaration of conformance" on their website.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 11:56:22 pm
content: In 20 years of working with electronics I have had exactly FOUR incidents where certification was needed, desired, and ACTUALLY tested for verification.In one case, a lab fire occurred at a small university. I came in as the consultant for the self insured manufacturer of the gear.We proved his grounding, shielding and fusing was better or equal to UL. We then found the actual cause of the fire, making life very easy for the insurance adjuster's consultant. A picture of the gear was shot at the end of assembly and placed in a quality control file, along with a test of bond resistance. Showing the pic proved INTENDED compliance and the lawsuit was dropped.It did not help that the student was using the HV PSU with a mixture of nanoparticles that essentially made thermite in a uncontained environment attached to the student center. A quartz-halogen lamp fell over, knocked over a bottle of methanol that was not capped, and lit the thermite, which melted thru the aluminum cased PSU, destroying any evidence of grounding.The other three were installing gear at various National Labs in the US. Ground Bonding tests had to be performed and the US lab would not accept the power cords which met DIN,CE, BS, TUV and other EURO standards but had no UL or CSA equivalent marking.Other then a DEEP personal insistence on a proper third wire ground, I've never had anyone but stage technicians and lab safety people look outside of the above four cases. Stage techs check simply to prevent ground loops in audio gear. The university lab inspectors simply look for third prong and any exposed loose wires. I've never seen one look at the certs.I do check my extension cords etc. at both my day job and home. But I'm a purist, usually I make my own.So if you build something for use at home, do the grounded metal case, use proper wire sizes, fusing, and connectors. Follow the electrical code in your construction. You'll be fine in most cases, and often far better then the EPAY stuff with the fake labels.Steve

author: tech5940
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 12:10:53 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on February 18, 2015, 08:03:26 pmNo I wasn't thinking Canadian standards were higher it was just they they were different and I wasn't sure why Canada made their own standard. If it's the same standards between US and Canada why require a special Canadian designation.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 12:13:57 am
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on February 18, 2015, 11:56:22 pmAnd strain relief / glands etc for physical protection.

author: tech5940
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 12:14:24 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on February 18, 2015, 08:27:16 pmThe province is Ontario I guess I didn't mention it in the first post but I have since then. The reason I keep referring to my "province" is because all the references I've come up with are from the provincial authority and I'm not sure if they apply to the whole country or not.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 12:29:26 am
content: - CSA is a national group and should not vary between provinces. I stand to be corrected.- UL and CSA compare codes and are essentially identical in the electrical sections. Yup seems to be a money grab.- CSA came into being at the request of England, WW1 related issues I think.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 07:30:06 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on February 18, 2015, 10:21:28 pmI was thinking more of the level of trust which the customer has in the company making the product, and the label that's stuck on it. I can write "UL" on a box of crap just as easily as I can write CSA, or CE, or C-Tick, or any other pretty logo that I think might help get my product through Customs and into the hands of a few punters before one of them catches fire.With CE, it's the manufacturer's responsibility to declare compliance to all applicable Directives. Legitimate manufacturers will gather evidence of compliance and maintain it in a Technical File.The Technical File contains test reports prepared by suitably accredited test labs - and these will indeed require samples of the product to be sent in and tested - plus notes of any design changes and any other relevant documentation.On-going testing is the responsibility of the manufacturer too. Some manufacturers - generally bigger ones in competitive markets, who can't afford to be caught selling something non-compliant by a competitor - will re-test product samples regularly. Smaller companies almost certainly won't.The set of Directives that actually apply to different products varies. A cordless mouse, for example, requires testing for EMC to cover its intentional transmissions, unintended radiation, and immunity. I'm fairly sure the CE mark also now covers compliance to the RoHS and Batteries Directives, which would also apply. One other hand, it's not powered from a supply >50V, so the Low Voltage Directive doesn't apply, and it doesn't plug into the mains, so no ErP (standby power) Directive either.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 02:11:48 pm
content: To be polite I will call the OP's interest in certification simplistic. I wrote many UL files. Yes, I did it not UL. After my first experience with UL, I believed the people I dealt with were incompetent. So to speed things up I wrote the file and sent it to them. They changed a word or two just so they could look themself in the mirror. Obviously they filled these positions with interns and first timers to save money. Often I had to get to a supervisor when the reviewer couldn't understand basic electronics. I had a 10A current sensing product that the CT could withstand 150A continuous. The reviewer couldn't understand how I could put 150A through the 10A relay contacts. He had the schematic, data sheet, and installation instructions. We have to send samples and they are returned after testing. They blew up one during testing. They glued a thermocouple to a 600V trace. BANG. Obviously they didn't understand the concept of spacing. A relative was burned and scarred by a UL approved electric blanket. Look at all the UL products that get recalls.Do I feel safer with an approval on a product, a little. I believe individual part approvals are quite good. At the product level it is superficial. There is quite a cost to all this. Customers would ask for UL approval. that would raise a $30 board to $300. UL is a private company, not a government agency. A while back UL was buying a Danish (I think) testing agency. So much for country independence. We have created a bloated monopoly that just keeps raising prices. I wish there was another game in town. If your product uses a UL rated relay and you want to switch to another manufacturer with the same UL rating, that is several thousand dollars.What has been created is high entry barrier to new products. I don't believe anyone is that much safer than just having GFI, arc fault, and fuse protection.

author: Pjotr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 02:46:33 pm
content: Therefore the EU has chosen a more practical approach to put the responsibility to comply with the standards solely at the manufacturer. There are no governmental bodies to certify, only private test houses. Only in case of doubt or misbehaviour (safety, emi, etc.) the governmental "watchdog" will jump in.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 02:49:31 pm
content: Quote from: Pjotr on February 19, 2015, 02:46:33 pmOr not, if you slip them enough money. Homeplug and friends get away with murder (and violent radio pollution).

author: Pjotr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 03:04:00 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 19, 2015, 02:49:31 pmThe governmental watchdog's nose is simply insensitive to emiBut it is a good example where it goes astray. Nevertheless imho the CE marketing mechanism as a whole stays one the strong pushes to comply with the regulations.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 03:06:02 pm
content: Quote from: Seekonk on February 19, 2015, 02:11:48 pmI share your frustration and agree totally that it's a barrier to entry for new products. I feel that if it's so important, it should be a government agency and it should be no-cost to submit products for approval. Many people don't realize that UL testing for a simple product is around $20k, often more - sometimes MUCH more, depending on the standards you need to meet. And there are many, many standards. And manufacturers must pay to get a copy of the standard, and the 10 or 20 other UL standards that will be referenced from the original document you paid for.When we were talking to NRTL's, I quickly realized that the rigidity of the testing process was a facade. Basically, the test is whether you can write a check for $10-20k. They told me that once you have a "relationship" with them, when releasing new products in the same family - you often won't even need to send the product for testing, they can just "add it to your certification". You still have to pay the $5-10k fee though, to get it added. And I think the site inspectors probably have the greatest job in the world... drive around to various companies... sit around blathering with the engineers, have some coffee... talk about the big game... get a free sandwich in their lunch room... take a 5 minute walk through the production area and say hi to the folks... then head home early after a hard day.

author: Ton
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 07:32:21 pm
content: Where I work here in Denmark, we use the norwegian test house for our testing, not the UL/Demko because we now have "relations" with Nemko. (compagny do not want to pay inspection fees to two test houses)a typical laboratory (medical) product cost in vicinity of 40.000$ to get trough EN61010 testing.then the compagny have to pay inspection fees I think it is 2x 10.000$.if we find a problem with the construction mechanical, electrical or sw, then the change has to be submittet and if you are lucky it will be a desk review with a 2.000$ fee if not it might be a partial or full retest.above cost is only the direct cost, it is not including the internal cost of preparing and supporting the testing, this internal cost can often reach close to same level.so when you are a small shop with low volume products, it will impact the price.On the other hand, I do not agree with the value of the CE mark, All you have to do is to have a technical file that contains a number of measurements that supports your claim of being in compliance with the directives. there is no requirement of having compliance testing from third parties.and the worst part is there is basically no consequences if you get caught with your hands in the cookie jar !!!I think it was la few years ago,http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/electrical/files/emc/ms-campaign-fifth_en.pdfthe test houses from a hand full of European countries tested 136 laptop Chargers/PSUs and only 24% passed, no consequences for distributors/producers of the 76% failed units,just pass along nothing to see here!!!And the testing was only EMC emission.For me That was a Epic fail for the CE mark trust worthiness

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 07:36:31 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on February 19, 2015, 07:30:06 amThere is nothing that stops companies doing the relevant tests themselves. They simply have to know and understand the standard, and have all the equipment to properly do it. Most smaller companies don't have this sort of thing. For example, IEC61010 needs a 48 hr humidity preconditioning of equipment prior to the safety flash test. In the case of EMC, even a small lab will set a company back a large amount of money.

author: Pjotr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 09:14:57 pm
content: Although that is somewhat true for consumer stuff, not so for industrial and medical equipment. Without solid testing and documentation and risk management for IEC 60601, you will not sell anything. Simply because customers require them. And most often also ISO900x.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 09:45:48 pm
content: Something to be mentioned on behalf of U.L. They don't "Certify" anything. They "List" things. Thats what they will tell you anyways. In my little corner of the world they do have some value. Not only do they evaluate your product for conformity to one of their many standards, and if they don't have one that fits they will come up with one. They also conduct continuing field inspections to insure you are maintaining the built product just like the ones you submitted for testing. Any major component change, such as terminal or I/O connectors, transformers/power supplies, circuit protection, etc, must be re evaluated. The initial listing for one of our style products is about 20K with about 2k a year ongoing fees and 600 to 800 for a change. If your product is below 42 volts potential and does not serve a safety related function or otherwise people will not be harmed from a malfunction and there is little to no risk of fire listing is generally not required. Lets say like some small product powered by a wall wart. If the wall wart is listed your device that you plug it into generally will not require a listing because it is only seeing low voltage.For Line operated equipment its just another cost of doing business. If you do get in a lawsuit regarding product safety U.L. really does not do anything for you. They can't. They just can't make you seem like a bad guy because your product is not listed. They will come up with a whole different reason to make you look bad. Lawyers are good at that. In that respect it is a Shake down. It does however give some assurance to the customer that there is some measure of consistency and QC when it comes to safety. Ground bonding, material flamibility, etc. Your mileage will vary.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2015, 07:47:29 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on February 18, 2015, 09:38:55 pmIts self certifying though. So while it means something, its not worth the sticker its printed on.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2015, 02:19:40 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on February 18, 2015, 08:03:26 pmI have worked both sides of these standards, building and certifying for the international market, and checking conformance of incoming goods before they are put into service. If the required compliance (or a known equivalent set) was marked on the product it would be ticked off and delivered into service, otherwise the product would have to be reviewed before being marked with the internal compliance tag.The amount of dangerously designed equipment coming through is astonishing, even those with the compliance markings can fail to meet the requirements though it was the unmarked products that always had the face palm errors (many of which couldn't be rectified). If you operate in a jurisdiction with industrial manslaughter laws you start to take these safety matters more seriously.

author: filssavi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2015, 09:55:20 am
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on February 24, 2015, 08:15:39 amThere is no need to certify anything, if your product is found to be non compliant you will get your ass kicked, the product will be banned from sale in the whole EU, and the producer will get a big fin, and there is no need for governament checks, the competitors will do it in the hope of finding something that will damage your company, both money and reputation wise.And this obviously applies only to good (aaka non chineese) companies, since chineese crap will have fake markings, CEE or UL or CSA or whatever, and most of the times if blocked to the customs it'll get smuggled in anyways by other means (like corrupting the custom agents or something like that)