Frustrating after sale Vision Engineering - Mantis Elite - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 01:55:38 pm
content: EDIT 4: To summarize:I purchased a demo unit from a VE authorized reseller;The item was not intended to be sold and I was cheated;VE said they can't do anything to my case regarding their authorized reseller;I will need to solve this by myself.EDIT 3: Added my comments to Mr. Turemen answer.EDIT 2: I included the Mr. Turemen answer after my description. Thanks for answering Mr. Turemen!EDIT: Vision Engineering corrected me and the seller was not a Vision Engineering's representative, but a Vision Engineering non-exclusive reseller. In they words:"SELLER_NAME is NOT a representative of Vision Engineering (VE), but they were a non-exclusive reseller of VE in Brazil."Hello!As I choosed to buy a Vision Engineering Mantis Elite stereo microscope after watch the excellent Dave's review, I think it is fair to alert here what happened with me.I am from Brazil and I purchased a Mantis Elite plus 3 lenses (4x, 8x and 15x) from a brazilian Vision's representative. The equipment was advertised asDEMO in perfect working condition, like new.In the same day I received the equipment, I reported back to the Vision's representative that theoptical was infested of fungus, in awful conditions.Then I sent the equipment back and a series of problems followed, fromunanswered e-mails to careless maintenance(missing parts, leaving cleaning product in the equipment).After more than 4 months trying to fix the equipment with the representative without success,I escalated the problem to Vision Engineering.In direct contact with Vision Engineering UK, we talked during more than 2 weeks detailing the problem, presenting documentation of the entire process like a print of the advertisement, proof of the bank transfer, invoice from Vision's representative, pictures of the problem, etc.Now I received an answer from Vision Engineering UK that says something like:"We understand your reasons but you purchased from a Vision's representative, not from Vision Engineering itself. So sorry, we can't do nothing to you."So be carefull with Vision Engineering representatives because if one day you are cheated, Vision may not stand behind them as ocourred with me.Regards,Rodrigo.Here is the Mr. Turemen answer, he is the Vision Engineering sales manager (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/frustrating-after-sale-vision-engineering-mantis-elite/msg1049975/#msg1049975):Hello everyone. I have not been able to read every single post yet, however I can tell there are mixed opinions on the forum since the original message has been posted. As the Vision Engineering sales manager covering the territory, I’d like to clarify a few points made here. First of all let me make it clear that this is not an official response from Vision Engineering Ltd. I am writing on my own behalf for the sole purpose of updating those who read these forums with “our” side of the story.rodpp, who wrote the original post, was kind enough to alert us that he had been sold a defective Mantis Elite microscope by a third party that was affiliated with Vision Engineering (VE). We took the matter very seriously, because the said third party never actually bought or sold any VE products in Brazil.Now let me open brackets here and provide a little bit of background information… VE used to have a representative in Brazil in the past. When he left the company more than a year ago, he left some demonstration equipment that he had in his possession with a number of re-sellers that we worked with at the time, because VE did not have own premises in Brazil for storing the equipment. In addition, we had provided some of these companies with demo equipment free of charge in the past, hoping that these would help our re-sellers collect more orders. Note that I am talking about non-commercial demo equipment, not commercial goods for resale. Coincidentally, the “ex-demo Mantis Elite set” that rodpp has been sold was identical to the one that our former representative had left with the re-seller in question. Close brackets.When the issue was reported to us, the first thought was that the re-seller had sold our demo equipment without notifying us. As you would appreciate, a significant amount of investigation is required before anyone can be accused of mischief. Following on from his original complaint, rodpp also informed us of other VE equipment being sold on the same web site by the same company. Regrettably, these too were demo items loaned to the same company.Now, I am not going to go into any more specifics of the case or reveal more undue inside information; but suffice to say, we took rodpp’s complaint very seriously and acted upon it immediately. These things do not get concluded in a day or two, but take a long time to work out.Going back to rodpp’s case… The truth of the matter is that he has bought a piece of used equipment from a third party, on a local website, where anyone can sell anything. The item was not put up for sale by VE. VE did neither sell nor loan that particular item to anybody in Brazil for resale purposes. It was -again; investigation pending- most likely a piece of demo equipment that was not meant to be sold to end users. Besides, it was clearly stored in less than ideal conditions for a very long time as mould or fungus does not grow easily on these units (We supply desiccant with every system, which needs replacing periodically). Needless to say, we were never asked to provide any repair or replacement service by the re-seller at any stage. Granted this would be a frustrating experience for any consumer, the case must be taken up with the seller of the goods and not the manufacturer. I am not familiar with the website on which the system was sold (it is entirely in Portuguese); however there may be some protection for purchases made online, just like on other popular auction sites.This is not about cost of a replacement unit or being picky about the type of customers we prioritise at all. Had we provided a replacement microscope to rodpp directly, we would have practically endorsed the transaction between him and the re-seller that should never have taken place in the first place, and could have consequently implicated VE in any further action going forward.Nonetheless when rodpp contacted us with his problem, I suggested that he claim a full refund from the re-seller, since I knew that the re-seller would not be able to replace the system with a new one. I even offered him a discount on any new product that he could purchase from another distributor as a goodwill gesture for his troubles. He refused this course of action, which was the cause of my confusion about his expectation from VE, as he has referred to in one of the posts.Again, I am grateful to rodpp for bringing this to our attention and in doing so allowing us to correct some wrongs in the way our products may have been offered to customers in Brazil without our knowledge. Perhaps I was not able to explain to rodpp exactly what was going on behind the scenes, as we can only disclose so much information on an internal investigation to third parties. However, I personally don’t believe the issue warranted a complaint about “Vision Engineering after-sales support” on a popular forum, when we might in fact be one of the victims of the case. Also, this may cause unjust doubt about other VE distributors in Brazil and worldwide with whom we are privileged to work.Ultimately everybody is entitled to his/her opinion and I hope my two-cents-worth would shed some light on any question marks. Apologies for the long post, but I tried to keep it as concise as possible.All the best!G.TuremenMy comments about the Mr. Turemen answer:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/frustrating-after-sale-vision-engineering-mantis-elite/msg1050189/#msg1050189

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 05:25:23 pm
content: That's incompetency of the highest order. The front line support verifying you are a legitimate customer. Then after it goes higher up the chain the management realise they will have to spend money to correct their agents mistakes, so they tell you to f.... off.It is a far cry from how other companies handle their dealers mistakes. Only a month ago I sent a couple of photos of sloppy workmanship to a UK companies HQ, with queries of how it could be corrected. I did not expect much of a reaponse, if any. A few days later their main Irish agent visited we, condemned the whole job and had it redone FOC. His view was the job was a disgrace to them and ruined their name.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 06:36:11 pm
content: "...we cant't do nothing to you"Do i see something wrong with this sentence

author: amirm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 06:43:27 pm
content: That's totally unacceptable. The company authorized those agents. When there are issues with them, they need to a) contact that seller and set them straight and b) make sure the customer is satisfied.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 06:45:33 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 14, 2016, 06:36:11 pmThat's probably not copied verbatim, although in this day and age I wouldn't be surprised if it was.If the above is anything to go by in a post-Brexit UK, then we may as well switch continents to Africa

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 08:04:48 pm
content: Edit the first message by adding the Mr Turemen response that was given only five pages later is a manipulation that is intellectually dishonest.Why ?Because all the answers that were given have been made without prior knowledge of this Vision Engineering's response.This completely changes the context in which these answers were given.Something I don't understand....http://www.visioneng.com/contact/worldwide-officesI don't find any adress of a Vision Engineering Ltd office in Brazil.There is an email adress but nothing more, no phone, no adress, nothing.

author: chriswebb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 08:08:24 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 14, 2016, 08:04:48 pmHe said he bought it from a vision representative. He did not say he bought it from their office.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 08:11:28 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 14, 2016, 08:04:48 pmThe OP talked about a "Vision representative", i.e., an agent or reseller of some sorts.Still, pretty disappointing behaviour from Vision Engineering UK. It's their (brand) reputation on the line...

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 08:19:26 pm
content: If they don't have an office in Brazil, nor in other lands of South America, they don't have a support for their products in those countries.Vision representatives do not repair defective Mantis.They have a brazilian site, but no adress of the support office in Brazil.It seems that it has to be shipped to UK for repair.http://www.visioneng.com.br/

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 08:20:46 pm
content: http://www.visioneng.com.br/I get the feeling, I'm only hearing one side of the story here.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 08:32:48 pm
content: QuoteIt seems hard to believe this....

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 08:39:15 pm
content: Hello!Thank you all from the replies.I received another email from Vision Engineering UK after my complaint and they corrected me regarding the "representative".They said:"SELLER_NAME is NOT a representative of Vision Engineering (VE), but they were a non-exclusive reseller of VE in Brazil."and after that:"I agree with all the issues you have listed, however these must be addressed to SELLER_NAME or to local authorities, as VE has no involvement in any of these issues. I appreciate that it is a frustrating experience for you, however I am not sure that I understand what you are expecting from Vision Engineering."So, as I purchased from a VE authorized dealer they understanding is that the problem is between me and the dealer. And they are not understanding what I am expecting from them...

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 08:40:43 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 14, 2016, 08:32:48 pmPlease, see the attached pictures.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 08:52:04 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 14, 2016, 08:20:46 pmI will point this thread to the Vision Engineering UK contact, so that they can express their side if they want.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 08:57:02 pm
content: How old was this Mantis Elite ?This kind of problem can't happen in short time.Where is it coming from ? From Manaus of some equatorial region ?This is NOT a demo Mantis Elite, it is an used one.Have you some guarantee ?You have sufficient consumer protection laws in Brazil, you have to take a lawyer and initiate a judiciary action against the person who sold you this Mantis Elite.There was clearly a fraud.Your problem is with this guy, not with Vision Engineering.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 08:59:45 pm
content: Can the Microscope be reasonably easily opened up (if necessary, using instructions/service manuals), and quickly/easily be cleaned ?Maybe the packaging got subjected to changing temperatures while it was originally sent to you. This maybe caused water/damp to occur, inside the package. Which could have made some mold and stuff, I guess.If it was on glass, then I would have thought it should be fairly easily cleaned ?(But I suppose great care is needed, to avoid scratching the optical glass).Was there any kind of guarantee with the unit, and who was the guarantee with ?In the UK, we can take companies to the small claims court, if there are disputes. I don't know how it works in Brazil, and if the reseller is outside of Brazil, that makes it even more complicated.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:00:21 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 14, 2016, 08:57:02 pmIt is not a guy, it is an authorized non-exclusive reseller of VE in Brazil. It is a company from São Paulo.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:01:09 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 14, 2016, 08:52:04 pmThat is a good idea. I get worried when only one side, talks about things. They can sometimes miss out important details.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:20:12 pm
content: QuoteTheywhere.If it is a company, it is more easy to win a lawsuit ....consumers are very well defended in Brazil....QuoteYes, that's right.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:21:35 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 14, 2016, 09:01:09 pmYes, of course. I just sent an email to the Vision Engineering UK contact and put a link to this thread in case they want to post here.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:25:50 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 14, 2016, 09:20:12 pmMy purchase was about 6 months ago and in that ocasion they were an authorized non-exclusive reseller of VE in Brazil.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:30:14 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 14, 2016, 09:21:35 pmhttp://www.visioneng.com/contact/finding-a-distributorInterestingly, it seems to say that they treat these distributors, seriously.QuoteSo they should at least, be taking at least some of the (moral) responsibility. Since they seem to be at least recommending the distributors, and claiming they are maintaining the quality of them, via checks or something. (I.e. The evaluated bit bolded in above quote)

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:31:34 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 14, 2016, 08:57:02 pmComplementing my answer for your questions:How old was this Mantis Elite ?I don't know, I received it already in this condition and reported the problem in the same day it arrived.Where is it coming from ? From Manaus of some equatorial region ?They sent it from São Paulo, where the company is located.Have you some guarantee ?They advertised a 12 months warranty.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:38:37 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 14, 2016, 09:25:50 pmI was under the assumption you bought it like this. If mould is now a problem after 6 months, could it but be something with the environment you're in?

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:38:47 pm
content: You do not seem to want to understand.Let's take the example of an authorized seller of a car brand that sells you a used (demo = used) car of that brand that they described as being "like new".You buy it and you realize that the engine is worn out and the car is unusable.In which you must claim?In the car manufacturer?No, there was fraud and dishonesty of the authorized dealer, and he alone, is responsible for his fraudulent acts.The manufacturer has not participated in this fraud, he is not complicit, on the contrary, it is also a victim because his name is messed publicly.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:39:14 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 14, 2016, 08:59:45 pmCan the Microscope be reasonably easily opened up (if necessary, using instructions/service manuals), and quickly/easily be cleaned ?I really don't know. I remember of reading something from Dave regarding the sensible optical components and because that Vision recommended only especialists to open the Mantis and Dave do not did the famous "take it apart".Maybe the packaging got subjected to changing temperatures while it was originally sent to you. This maybe caused water/damp to occur, inside the package. Which could have made some mold and stuff, I guess.It could be, but the freight time from São Paulo to my house was about only 2 or 3 days.If it was on glass, then I would have thought it should be fairly easily cleaned ?(But I suppose great care is needed, to avoid scratching the optical glass).There are internal fungus too.Was there any kind of guarantee with the unit, and who was the guarantee with ?The authorized non-exclusive reseller advertized a 12 months waranty.In the UK, we can take companies to the small claims court, if there are disputes. I don't know how it works in Brazil, and if the reseller is outside of Brazil, that makes it even more complicated.Here we have small claims court too. But I was trying everything before set a case in court.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:42:07 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on October 14, 2016, 09:38:37 pmThe microscope arrived with fungus.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:45:45 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 14, 2016, 09:42:07 pmGetting really confused here.It's taken you 6 months to dispute this issue with VE?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:47:25 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 14, 2016, 09:39:14 pmLenses can be cleaned from fungus but it is not how repair must be done properly. Fungus don't grow on nothing, it eats away optical coating on the optics, therefore damaged parts must be exchanged.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:48:09 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 14, 2016, 09:38:47 pmI respect your opinion, but mine is different.The authorized dealer carry the VE trademark and it has a big weigh in the consumer decision. When they say "We are a Vision's local reseller/distribuitor" they are bringing trust to the table, because the consumer expect a support from the manufacturer, buying from authorized resellers. Otherwise it would be a gray market product, without any kind of support except from the seller.When the dealer and VE do an agreement (or whatever business relationship) to the dealer sell VE equipment, the dealer is exploring new markets, expanding VE presence in Brazil, bringing VE equipments to local technical fair and exibitions, presenting VE products to potential clients and so on. All this supported by VE, including providing demo equipments.If everything goes well it is good for VE and for the dealer, and it is fair.What I was expecting is if something goes wrong, mainly a harm to the consumer, that the manufacturer take responsibility to solve the problem and after that handle the problem with the partner as an internal problem.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:49:27 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on October 14, 2016, 09:45:45 pmmaybe read the opening post?

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:50:46 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on October 14, 2016, 09:45:45 pmNo, the 6 months is from the payment. After that I was disputing with the dealer for months without success. After that a little more than 2 weeks in contact with Vision Engineering UK and then I received this answer.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:55:27 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 14, 2016, 09:47:25 pmI see. I did not realize. That is serious damage then, since it is not a quick and easy clean/repair. Maybe the item is NOT fit for purpose.To the OP:Often/usually (in the UK), just by threatening to go to them or by actually going to the small claims courts (I think it costs just £5 or a bit more, for the initial filing to start the process off). The company (distributor in your case) will immediately offer a settlement, which resolves the issue.If that does not work (i.e. the small claims court has to progress), then (Relating to the UK, but it maybe applies to Brazil).Simply photographing it and describing the issues maybe enough. If not (best to get advice on best course of action) then I think you may have to do something on the lines of getting an independent technical expert to check the Microscope out and report on its condition (a report). This can then be submitted to the courts if necessary.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 10:02:59 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 14, 2016, 09:48:09 pmYou are wrong because it was not a new product.When a dealer sell an used product or even a demo product (that's what he said but no way to proove it), the warranty he give to you is not the warranty of the manufacturer, but his own waranty.As long you don't proove there is some manufacturing defect, the responsability of the manufacturer is not engaged.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 10:03:27 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 14, 2016, 09:48:09 pmYou should beSAFE, when you buy stuff (especially expensive things), when you do it through the official channels. If that is NOT the case, then the distributor AND the manufacturer should** help out.N.B. should** is NOT necessarily the same as LEGALLY responsible (as regards the UK headquarters of the company) though. Unfortunately.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 10:18:28 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 14, 2016, 10:03:27 pmSafe is a word that does not exist in Brazil.Everyone in Brazil knows he always must beware in business.If you buy something used, even in a large company, always check everything yourself before you buy.Most of the Brazilian do not pay in cash, but credit, which gives a certain security.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 10:27:04 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 14, 2016, 10:18:28 pmI live in Brazil and don't share your thoughs.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 10:27:29 pm
content: If the microscope is still in your possession please take at least minimum precautionary measures when handling said device, even though it was sold as a demo unit you don't really know from whence it came or what it had been used for, for all we know that fungus could in fact be a virulent ebola strain or even worse mushrooms.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 10:39:23 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 14, 2016, 09:55:27 pmThank you!Here in Brazil the small claims court is free of charge and the process is simple too.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 10:51:28 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 14, 2016, 10:27:04 pmI lived and worked in Brazil for more than 20 years and I have a lot of brasilians friends who share my thoughs

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 11:58:17 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 14, 2016, 10:51:28 pmOk, fortunately people can have different thoughs.Quote from: oldway on October 14, 2016, 10:18:28 pmAs it seems, neither exist to Vision Engineering...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 12:06:56 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 14, 2016, 01:55:38 pmWhat part of representative don't they understand?This is corporate suicide on the part of Vision Engineering

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 12:11:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 15, 2016, 12:06:56 amHi Dave, thank you for answering.Please note that as I said in another post, Vision Engineering corrected me in an email answer. They said:"SELLER_NAME isNOT a representativeof Vision Engineering (VE), but they were anon-exclusive resellerof VE in Brazil."And they understand that they have no responsability in Vision Engineering authorized non-exclusive resellers. They said:"I agree with all the issues you have listed, however these must be addressed to SELLER_NAME or to local authorities, as VE has no involvement in any of these issues. I appreciate that it is a frustrating experience for you, however I am not sure that I understand what you are expecting from Vision Engineering."I will edit the first post with this information.

author: TiN
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 12:40:34 am
content: You mentioned there was 12 month warranty from this reseller. Why not just claim warranty first day you got it, but instead go for 6month argue?

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 12:56:34 am
content: Quote from: TiN on October 15, 2016, 12:40:34 amPlease read the first post, I claimed in the first day and I have no solution yet.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 04:05:56 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 15, 2016, 12:11:20 amThis is just bs double speak from Vision Engineering, the company you bought from are authorised resellers. So is becomes Vision Engineering problem, as it effects their reputation.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 05:57:45 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 14, 2016, 08:59:45 pmfungus dont grow and infest overnight, it will take months.. as OP metioned, the unit is a display. i suspect its not a display, it was stored in a dark and humid room. 2 gold ingredients for fungus nurturing.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 06:05:55 am
content: Sounds like the person you got it from is a lost cause unless you take them to court.If it was me i'd take the whole thing apart and clean it out. (Try to avoid any optical alignment screws and mark things so you can reassemble exactly)Then kindly ask the person at vision engineering who you are dealing with if they could sell you "damaged part X" at cost price.It's likely an quite easy thing for them to do that, as opposed to just giving you a brand new unit at no charge. Given that its not there problem.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 06:47:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 15, 2016, 12:06:56 amThey should be applying appropriate pressure on these guys at a minimum!

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 08:01:55 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 15, 2016, 05:57:45 amYou forget a third gold ingredient: some organic compound.They don't grow on clean mineral material.Somebody said they grew on the lens coating....This seems impossible because lens coatings are pure minerals.There are fungus to such a great extension that it is obvious that those lens have been contaminated by a lot of organic dirt.This can't happen simply by storing it in a dark and humid room, it has been used in a highly contaminated environment.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 08:13:03 am
content: Quote from: oldway on October 15, 2016, 08:01:55 am

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 08:26:11 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 14, 2016, 10:39:23 pmWhy don't you simply do this ? What are you looking for ? A new Mantis for the price of an used one ?The brazilian law give you the right to have the problem repaired in 30 days (you waited 6 month !) , or to ask a replacement or a refund.Why don't you look for your rights in the brazilian court ?http://www.planalto.gov.br/ccivil_03/leis/L8078.htmEDIT 1: You can even make it simpler: you make a claim to the Procon.EDIT 2: The more strange is that you are messing Vision Engineering and you don't even give the name and adress of the autorized seller in São Paulo who has sold you this bad Mantis Elite and which seems to be the true guilty.Are you afraid of him or your story is not that what you told ?EDIT 3: With the powerful brasilian laws protecting the consumers, it is not possible that 6 month later you still not have found locally a solution to your problem.Something is wrong.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 08:40:09 am
content: Quote from: wraper on October 15, 2016, 08:13:03 amThis is only confirming what I wrote: fungus needs nutrients and glass is not a nutrient.From your link: "Why does lens fungus grow? Fungal spores are everywhere and will grow whenever temperature, humidity, and nutrients exist. Ordinary house dust consists of carbohydrate (cellulose lint from fabrics) or protein (bits of you) that is fine food for fungus. Liquid water and light are not necessary."

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 11:45:01 am
content: Quote from: oldway on October 15, 2016, 08:26:11 amIt seems I will have to do this. To open a case in court is always my last resource, I was trying to solve this directly with the authorized reseller and with Vision Engineering without success.I'm not looking for a new Mantis and never asked that, I only want what I paid for, no more, no less.Regarding the reseller name, I'm exposing here the Vision Engineering behavior and how they handle authorized resellers mistakes. That may occour with the dealer A, B or C in Brazil, Australia, Greece, or any other place.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 12:06:09 pm
content: The first thing to do was to make a claim to the PROCON, you don't need a lawyer for this.(PROCON = protection of the consumer in Brazil)http://www.portaldoconsumidor.gov.br/procon.asp?acao=buscarYou don't need to wait 6 month to do this.I think I found the reseller in São Paulo....(Vila Ema ?)Again, I think that Vision Engineering is not responsible ofused itemssold by this reseller. (In brasilian rights, responsability exclusion of the manufacturer)It could be different if it should be a defective new product !Furthermore, the problem is NOT a failure of the product, but resulting from wrong use and storage.EDIT: To respect the principle of contradictory debate, this reseller of Sao Paulo should be adviced of this thread and participate to explain what really happen, why he did not refund you, nor repaired the damaged Mantis Elite.He claims on his site that he has expertise to do this : What happened ?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 01:32:55 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 15, 2016, 08:01:55 amyup thats the 1st actually. that organic compund is called "food"...Quote from: Psi on October 15, 2016, 06:05:55 amits not that easy. either fungus eat the lens coating or they leave trails of shit that interact and screw with lens coating. so even if you've completely wash off any strange materials, you are left with scratched coating marks. if one is not have a good lens coating lab, a better solution is get a new lens.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 02:21:49 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 15, 2016, 12:06:09 pmDon't worry, I know how to proceed here in Brazil against this kind of scam.I did not expose the seller and think it is not relevant to show how Vision Engineering behaves and handle they dealers mistakes. And I pointed this thread to Vision Engineering UK.I would like to expose here the Vision attitude in this case. In your opinion there is nothing wrong with the way Vision handled that.As I said I respect your opinion, probable others here share it too. But I respectfully don't agree, as it seems other users here don't agree too.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 03:13:34 pm
content: In my opinion, there is something wrong with the manner you want to solve this problem.You have in Brasil one of the most effective (codigo de defesa do consumidor + PROCON) and most modern system of protection of the consumer (and it really works very well, I have two lawyers in my brasilian family, they have confirm this to me) and you refuse to use it ...The seller has 30 days to correct the problem and 6 month later, you are still looking for another solution ...You are looking for trouble willingly.First, nor you, nor I, nor anybody of this forum could decide if the Vision Engineering has some responsability or not in this case, it's a debate to be done in Brasilian Justice.We have only your version, whe would have to read the version of the reseller to make our opinion.But you don't want to inform it of this thread ..It seems that something very serious happened between you and the reseller and you don't want he could tell it to us ...And you decided yourself that Vision Engineering IS responsible and you are complaining for their behaviour.Using the legal ressources of consumer protection laws, you could solve your problem easily in no more than 2 month BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO USE THIS LEGAL RESSOURCESThat's indeed what Vision Engineering wrote to you: use the local ressources, they are powerfull....For me, your attitude is nonsense.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 05:46:26 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 15, 2016, 03:13:34 pmI don't agree with what you are saying, or your conclusions. (But you are welcome to have a differing opinion to mine).The OP, is entirely right, and being really nice to patiently (initially), let the original seller (in Brazil), handle the situation.For all he (the OP) knows, they are going to put the situation right, and all will be well.So the OP has repeatedly attempted to get the original sellers to fix the Microscope. Sending it to them multiple times, waiting for it to get there. Then waiting for them to repair it and finally send it back. It takes time.Also the sellers seem to be taking time to respond to his emails/telephoning/letters, or whatever means the OP has used, to communicate with them.tl;drI'm not even slightly surprised (or concerned), by the delays the OP has experienced.I would do just like the OP (and I would think many others) by being VERY reluctant to chase this up by using the courts.Also the courts will want to see that the purchaser has taken reasonable steps to get this resolved, by contacting the seller, and getting them to fix it etc.tl;dr2I think the OP is doing just fine. Also since he has NOT specifically detailed the Brazilian seller, he is NOT obligated to inform them about this thread.Anyway the OP has stated that he has/is going to contact the UK manufactures to give them a chance to explain their side of things.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 05:58:10 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 15, 2016, 05:57:45 amAt the time either the OP had not said how long it took to initially arrive and/or I had not fully read and/or taken in the rest of the thread.So I thought/guessed/assumed that it might have been sent from a far off country (I also was not sure that it was coming from Brazil), via ship, and taking many weeks or even months to arrive (I'm NOT familiar with how Brazil does things like that). So if it was damp/moldy inside the packaging and maybe the Microscope was "dirty" from the original lab which owned or "demoed" the Microscope.It (in my mind) could have got into that moldy state.But (I did NOT realize the fungus was so potentially serious)..................Quote from: wraper on October 15, 2016, 08:13:03 amThanks for the link. I had never heard of that problem (lens getting damaged/destroyed by fungus growths).

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 06:34:03 pm
content: Slightly off topic, I once had an old logic analyzer which had a plastic face plate bonded onto a CRT with some sort of Silicone compound perhaps for implosion protection. Anyway it had been stored in a friends attic for a long time and when I fired it up you could see hundreds of black dots under the plastic face plate all from microbe growth in the Silicone gel, had to gently slice it off with a knife and clean it up to get a proper image. Just goes to show that microbes will grow almost anywhere.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 06:57:39 pm
content: @MK14: I can understand your reaction because you react still as an european ( BREXIT...)In Europe, consumers are very badly protected.For exemple, in Belgium, you don't even know where you could complain in case yours consumers rights are not respected.You must be afiliate to a magazine Test Achat to have some help.A trial is very expensive (a specialized lawyer costs 150€ + 21% VAT/hour !) and the trial is at your own expense.Delays are very long (several years).In Brazil, it is totally different.You make a complain against the seller to the PROCON (only in São Paulo) this is fully free, you don't have to prove you tried for month to find a solution, the PROCON make the investigation and try to solve the problem with the seller.Mostly, this solve the problem.PROCON is not judicial, only administrative.If this don't work, you can initiate a trial, delays and costs are very low.So OP had the possibility to solve his problem quickly and at no expense, but he did not do it.NB: In Brazil, you have many chances to win the case because the Brazilian justice almost always decides in favor of consumers.EDIT:QuoteImportation in Brazil of used equipment is not allowed by custom rules. Perhaps from Mercosul is it different?

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 06:59:55 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on October 15, 2016, 06:34:03 pmPlastic is organic compound, not mineral.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 07:46:59 pm
content: I found another Vision Engineering reseller in São Paulo (Jabaquara)

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 08:49:20 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 15, 2016, 05:46:26 pmThank you for explaining it in better words.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 08:51:26 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 15, 2016, 05:58:10 pmFrom the seller to my house it was only 2 or 3 days.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 09:19:27 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 15, 2016, 08:51:26 pmThat probably helps you, if you end up having to officially complain about it. Too little time (basing it on what other people have said in this thread) for the item to get damaged by the delivery method. As regards significant fungus growths etc.Quote from: oldway on October 15, 2016, 06:57:39 pmIn the UK (and to some extent Europe), there are at least four protection mechanisms.There is "Trading Standards", who can investigate and even prosecute traders acting illegally. At absolutely no cost to the person who complains.Then there is the "small claims court". At relatively low cost (at least initially), they can begin investigating problems, such as the one in this thread.If the trader has acted significantly illegally. E.g. They are knowingly selling stolen items. The UK Police can investigate and handle the situation.Failing those steps, you would have to take someone to court for real. As you said, it usually can cost a huge amount of money. Such as tens of thousands of pounds and potentially massively more than that. BUT in a number of cases, simply initiating the court case, may get the other party to realize/worry about the potentially huge costs, and back down and reach a settlement.Because of the huge court costs, if your initial attempts with threatening them with court does not work. It is probably too expensive (and time consuming) a method to use.There may be other options I have not mentioned.tl;drYou are right. Failing the first three steps above, crooked/dishonest traders can potentially get away with stuff like that in the UK and elsewhere. That is why I try and get recommended (e.g. online reviews) companies to deal with. But in the OP's case, he was kind of forced to deal with his local official dealer. So had little choice in the matter.i.e. Buy from the official dealer or do without that particular Microscope.But as regards Brazil/OP, I don't have a problem, with them NOT using Brazil's official complaints system yet. I admire them for being patient with the trading company who sold him the apparently faulty/misdescribed Microscope in the first place.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 06:58:42 am
content: Regarding the refusal to use existing resources to immediately stop the abuse and dishonesty of the brazilian reseller, I have a problem with that.Why ?Because part of my family lives in Brazil and because the biggest problem in Brazil is the impunity.And when he refuse to denounce dishonest dealer (his name is deliberately hidden), OP acts as his accomplice by protecting him and impunity is promoted.He also promotes impunity by refusing to use legal means that the Brazilian state has made available to citizens.And this is not an issue that I raised in vain.A third of the most dangerous cities in the world are located in Brazil.http://veja.abril.com.br/blog/cidades-sem-fronteiras/violencia/cidades-mais-perigosas/And why is this happen ?Because Brasil as a great problem : impunity.In Brazil, if somebody is committing a crime or even if someone kills, the risk of going to jail is very low, only 8% (60% in USA, 70% in Europe and 90% in Japan)http://veja.abril.com.br/blog/cidades-sem-fronteiras/violencia/razoes-violencia-nordeste/

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 07:42:59 am
content: That escallated fastFrom fungus on a lens to becoming an accomplice for crime in Brazil in a few forum posts.

author: Radioman55
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 12:31:03 pm
content: Bottom line, Vision has missed a public relations opportunity, through service recovery, to make a customer satisfied. If the customer was trying to scam THEM, they also had the opportunity to respond here and explain. Instead, they've had their name dragged through the manure.On the other hand, Brazillian law allows rodpp to have the consumer protection folks assist him, but didn't. I don't have a horse in this race, but there were a lot of missed opportunities.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 12:42:52 pm
content: Quote from: Radioman55 on October 16, 2016, 12:31:03 pmThis thread is ONLY about 2 days old, and it is a weekend, when most companies are closed. Best to give them time to respond, before declaring things like "they also had the opportunity to respond here and explain".The OP may indeed end up using the forces of consumer protection law/organisations in Brazil. He is just having a last go, via this forum thread. Then (if I understand things correctly), he is going to seriously consider going that route.The delays seem to be because the sellers and Vision Engineering, have taken a while to sort things out (or not), and respond.tl;drThe OP seems to be doing just fine and it is the sellers and Vision Engineering who have a lot of explaining to do.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 02:08:40 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 16, 2016, 12:42:52 pmExactly, and I sent an email to the Vision Engineering UK contact pointing this thread on Friday afternoon in Brazil or Friday late night in London. Probably they will read the email tomorrow morning.It is important to register that Vision Engineering UK was always responsive, very polite and they investigated this case during 2 weeks when I provided to them proofs of purchase and detailed everything.Only they final answer was frustrating to me, when they said something like:You purchase the equipment from a Vision Engineering authorized reseller, not from Vision Engineering itself. So it is your problem with that authorized reseller, there is nothing to do with Vision Engineering.Regarding my actions to solve this:1- tried directly with the seller without success;2- tried with Vision Engineering UK without success;3- opened this thread to show here what happened and alert other users, because I discovered the Mantis Elite watching the Dave's review and chances are that others did or will do too;4- probably I will need to open a case in court here in Brazil (and don't worry I know how to proceed with that, I know my rights and I am not asking for help about how to open a case in the Brazilian justice as it seems from some replies in this thread).

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 03:41:29 pm
content: Sellers of Vision Engineering products in São Paulo, Brazil:- Métrica Latino AmericanaRua Marguerite Louise Riechelman, 219Vila Erna – CEP 04403-010São Paulo – SP – BrasilFone: +55 11 2691-5910Fax : +55 11 2691-5913metrica@metricabrasil.com.brfacebook.com/metricabrasilhttp://metricabrasil.com.br/- Dp União Instrumental Analítica E Científica LtdaAv Monsenhor Basílio Pereira, 50Jabaquara - São PauloCEP 04343-090(11) 5079-8411www.dpunion.com.br

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 03:59:35 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 16, 2016, 02:08:40 pmDid they indicate to you if they contacted that authorized reseller and tried to resolve it or if they will use any sanctions against that authorized reseller?It shouldn't take two weeks just to figure out that you didn't buy it directly from them.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 05:05:17 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 16, 2016, 03:59:35 pmYes, they contacted the seller.Regarding sanctions against the seller they only said "We are now working on resolving some issues with that seller".Yes, it shouldn't take two weeks to figure out that I purchased from an authorized reseller and not directly from Vision Engineering as this option is not available in Brazil. My first email to then was replied on the next day and in that next day they asked for a proof of purchase and I sent to them on that same day.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 05:07:15 pm
content: I wonder how it would be possible to buy directly from vision engineering as they don't have an office in Brazil no more.It seems they have had one but they stopped it.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 05:09:59 pm
content: Since they are aware that there are issues with that authorized seller, they should be more helpful to you. I understand your expectations from them.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 05:18:20 pm
content: How could Vision Engineering have any control on used equipment sales made by his autorized reseller ?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 05:42:37 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 16, 2016, 05:18:20 pmBy stopping authorizing them (if discussing it with them and threatening action, does not resolve the situation, between the headquarters and the seller), and possibly compensating any badly affected customers. To maintain the good name/will of the company. Since ultimately it is Vision Engineering who will lose business, in the longer term.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 07:49:49 pm
content: If the customer give up to use the local legal ressources and if he let the seller benefit financially from his dishonesty, I really don't understand why Vision Engineering would have to refund this customer.About maintain the good name/will of the company, this is nonsense.Vision Engineering is selling an unique and patented product for many years (more than 150.000 Mantis in the all world) and has nothing more to prove.Vision Engineering will lose business in the longer term? I don't think so, perhaps they closed the brazilian office because market in South America is not that interesting. May be that costs are higher than benefits.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 08:08:54 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 16, 2016, 07:49:49 pmVision Engineering are welcome to ignore this situation and wash their hands of it. But that is probably NOT the correct strategy for a proper/quality company and/or the best way of giving future/current buyers confidence in their products, company and authorized dealer network.You seem to be blaming the victim of this, instead of the perpetrator(s). The OP does NOT have to go to court (or similar), it is up to them. That does NOT remove the obligations of the seller and (maybe) Vision Engineering, from putting the situation right.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 08:19:24 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 16, 2016, 08:08:54 pmWell yes, but in most jurisdictions, including apparently Brazil, if you purchase something the contract is between you and the seller. If the goods are not as described or are otherwise defective, the burden is on the seller to put the situation right. If you give the seller a reasonable opportunity to do so and they fail, then it is appropriate to invoke relevant consumer protection laws.What is puzzling in this case is that the OP has apparently waited 6 months without resolution from the seller, and has in all this time not made use of any legal remedies available, nor is even willing to name the seller involved.Something seems very strange here.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 08:23:16 pm
content: By law, only the victim (the OP) may bring a lawsuit.An action brought by Vision Engineering against the seller is legally inadmissible.Vision Engineering can not substitute for the victim or make a complaint to the Brazilian procon.The perpetrator is obviously the seller, not Vision EngineeringWho is this seller?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 08:36:57 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on October 16, 2016, 08:19:24 pmQuote from: oldway on October 16, 2016, 08:23:16 pmI tend to agree with you both. There seems to be three ways this could be sorted out:(1)...The OP takes the seller to court or similar organisation in Brazil(2)...Vision Engineering, put huge pressure on the seller, by threatening to drop them, if they don't sort this out.(3)...Vision Engineering, make a good will gesture and sort this out. Legally they probably DON'T need to, but it would lead to better customer satisfaction. Since the seller was/is authorized to be one, by Vision EngineeringMaybe you are both right, and the courts is the way to go.Vision Engineering, are still potentially bad, because they should only authorize decent/honest/reliable sellers/resellers. Otherwise it can damage their good name.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 08:43:40 pm
content: Also, the item purchased was not apparently brand new from the manufacturer, but was sold second hand as a previously used item. In this situation the manufacturer cannot be responsible for how previous users might have treated the equipment.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 08:49:25 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on October 16, 2016, 08:43:40 pmThe OP has already said the item was NOT suppose to be used. (Except used in the "demo unit" sense).It was suppose to be a demo unit in new condition.From OP's early posts:QuoteBut I guess "Demo unit", can mean different things to different people.But like new, should mean that it is in very, very good condition.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 08:51:21 pm
content: It's important to register that I never discarded the legal way to solve this and probably it will be necessary.What is frustrating to me is that buying from an authorized reseller or from some strange guy in the street is the same for Vision Engineering.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 08:54:34 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 16, 2016, 08:36:57 pm

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 08:55:04 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 16, 2016, 08:49:25 pmMore yet coming from an authorized reseller with 12 months warranty.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 08:58:09 pm
content: A demo unit is by definition not "new in box". It has been opened and used for demos. Perhaps it may have been shipped to various potential customers for evaluation, who may have done who knows what to it before shipping it back. It's exactly like the hardware that might get sent to Dave for review. Dave might do all sorts of things to the kit, including tearing it down, before returning it.Yes, the seller may have falsely described the condition of the unit, but it was still a previously used unit, not brand new and not sold as such.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 09:03:00 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on October 16, 2016, 08:58:09 pmYou are right, I agree.I like to think that "Demo Unit" means that a brand new unit was taken out of its box and put on a display shelf (in a shop). Then later sold as a "Demo unit".But as you say, it might have been sent to customers (so they can demo/try it out or a loaner until their unit is repaired/ready) and/or otherwise lent out. Meaning that it is just as "used", as a normal second hand item.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 09:11:18 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 16, 2016, 08:54:34 pmYou might be right. I can see your points.I feel sorry for the OP. It is sad that the Microscope that they paid good money for, and was from an authorized dealer has turned out to be of poor quality. The OP should have got a decent demo (to whatever extent that means used) Microscope, and should be peacefully using it now.Instead he is faced with this horrible situation.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 09:12:46 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 16, 2016, 08:51:21 pmAll industries suffer from rogue dealers unfortunately. I spent several years as a sales engineer for multinational manufacturers and sorting out the mess left by some of these cowboys was the worst part of the job by far.I wonder what "authorized" means in this instance? It's quite possible that this reseller buys from a regional distributor and doesn't even have any sort of trading relationship with VE...As has already been discussed this isn't an equipment or manufacturing fault, but rather a used item that sounds like it has been mistreated then (mis-)sold to OP. Yes I would be pissed off if it were me, but I wouldn't expect the foreign manufacturer to sort it out.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 09:13:17 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 16, 2016, 08:55:04 pmYes, it seems from what you write that the seller is dishonest.But if you are so sure of your affirmations and you have evidence, why do not you quote the name of the seller?You fear prosecution for slander, libel and defamation?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 09:15:53 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 16, 2016, 08:51:21 pmI think it is wrong of you to publicly bring Vision Engineering into it like this. They are merely a bystander in your dispute. You did not buy the unit new as shipped by the manufacturer, you bought it previously used with wear and tear along the way in a condition that was not properly described by the seller. Your dispute is purely with the seller of the goods, and not with the maker of the goods.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 09:19:22 pm
content: and probably the demo unit is out of warranty already (from Vision Engineering's point of view) since the day from its opening for demo is more than 12 months already. and fungus is not something warranted, its considered as user's fault for not handling (storing) it in the right condition, in this case is the reseller. the claim of "like new and fully functional" probably valid at the day of advertisement, and then it got stored and fungus developed. you dont have to do anything or use the item for fungus to develop. so the OP paid, and reseller just sent it in its "already packed condition from storage" without rechecking the condition. and since i suspect the DEMO unit is sold at a reduced price, i guess this is "you get what you pay" scenario, so nobody is going to take the responsibility. imho.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 09:26:35 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 16, 2016, 09:19:22 pmI don't agree....Brazilian law is very clear: the seller has 30 days to correct the problem...Product must be as described ..."like new"....OP is right but Vision Engineering has nothing to do with this.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 09:31:23 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on October 16, 2016, 09:15:53 pmI paid for a Demo unit in perfect working condition, like new, from an authorized reseller.If I had bought it from some street store, with no business relationship with the Vision, I would agree with you.When the seller says I'm an Vision Engineering authorized dealer, carrying the Vision Engineering trademark, supplied by the Vision Engineering with demo units, marketing materials, catalogs, in my opinion Vision is part of the deal.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 09:36:08 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 16, 2016, 09:26:35 pmi agree. like others, i would also say, the reseller/representative is at fault here, not the manufacturer/vision engineering. and i believe the reseller also tried to fix the item, but as we already know, fungus is not something easily fixable. and then maybe they tried to deal with manufacturer to get a new lens, but got charged for their own fault. since the item sold at discounted price, they decided not to proceed with replacement part due to economic point of view, who knows this is just speculation. if the OP want to take legal action, he may proceed, but putting manufacturer on different globe as the defendent is less wiser imho.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 09:47:58 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 15, 2016, 12:06:56 amand relating to this....do you think they the mantis give a rat arse on a bunch of hobbiests? i believe their market is on high class professional companies with thick checkbook. beside that, if one is not to buy from mantis, from where they want to buy from? afaik, the closest contender to mantis is this.... (from hobbiests POV)http://www.ebay.com.my/itm/7X-45X-Inspection-Dissecting-Pillar-Stand-Zoom-Stereo-Microscope-56-LED-Light-/282039877414?hash=item41aae2ff26:g:s~MAAOSw9k5XP6fr

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 09:48:47 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 16, 2016, 09:31:23 pmYou can always try to defend this point of view in court.But considering that this is not a new object, that the object has been used and stored improperly and obviously, that there are no manufacturing defects, Vision Engineering will certainly invoke in Brazilian terms " Exclusão da Responsabilidade do Fabricante "

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 11:17:26 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 16, 2016, 09:31:23 pmI think you are making an interesting point.I guess a lawyer (ideally Brazilian), would know the legal standpoint.From a moral point of view I already agree with you.As others have said, I guess legally Vision Engineering are probably not liable. (But a lawyer would know best). But it might be good publicity for them to help you, rather than bad publicity.Being practical. Since Vision Engineering are in the UK, and you bought it and are located in Brazil. Your legal capabilities (even if they are legally 100% liable), would be very difficult in practice to enforce.E.g. Some terrible people, murder someone in a country, then escape to another. Potentially escaping justice, even if the perpetrator is known. Either because the two countries do not have formal ties (mutual extradition treaties), so you can't apply to have the person extradited from there, and/or the extradition process fails. E.g. due to a lack of evidence etc.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 02:15:18 am
content: EEVblog is quite a good way of getting stuff sorted out itself.. I think of the messy situation that some who bought a Desktop SMT machine found themselves in ( HotHOTSMT / SmallSMT / and Yusheng ).. No body wanted to do anythign untill some public name and shame occured, eventualy someone who was'tn responsable, but who was being impacted, made something happen.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 03:29:16 am
content: yeah another case is that Keysight thing. Keysight! not some China name, eventually did a mistake. Keysight took it seriously though the last page i read, not sure about this dominant monopoly Vision Engineering. Keysight has some serious contender though like Rigol and whats the other name? with the flawless logic decoder, so they said. If say i'm going to have problem with Keysight USA (or where ever they are), i doubt even they can solve the problem, or at least easier task on my part.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 03:47:43 am
content: I have been wanting to get one Mantis, but the confusion on what kind of magnification is holding me back. There is no dummy guide of Mantis website also. A more relevant question is: is it so easy for fungus to grow on the lens? If it is so, it does not make sense to have one for casual usage.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 03:51:47 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on October 17, 2016, 03:47:43 amI agree with you, good point.I'd be especially worried if it was a potentially damp outbuilding, garage, shed, attic, not often used room. Where it might silently destroy itself that way. I.e. A possible electronics home hobby electronics lab location.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 04:01:40 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on October 17, 2016, 03:47:43 ami just quick read the manualhttp://menegon-metrologie.com/_pdf/MantisStaffServiceManual%20M.pdf,i just know they have expendable dessicant to be maintained from inside. that can save you from some fungus. and my earliest post i indicated 2 gold ingredients for fungus, avoid that, then you can be assured to some higher percentage that fungus will not develop. in photography world we have what they called, drybox. but not sure how practical it is in this case. easiest rule is air conditioned room and next to sun facing window, or timely artificial light like what i diyed to my photography equipment's drybox. fwiw.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 08:29:45 am
content: http://menegon-metrologie.com/_pdf/MantisStaffServiceManual%20M.pdfThis is a very interesting and important information because it shows that there is an obvious fault of the seller.Vision Engineering's products are protected against the fungus by a dessicant.It is therefore impossible that the fungus growing on the lens if the device is properly maintained.The service manual says that the desiccant should be changed when it became pink.The defect is due to the seller, the manufacturer's responsibility is excluded.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 09:21:56 am
content: This is more reassuring.My workshop has a dehumidifier running 247, and my part cabinet has drying agent in every drawer. When I have a few minutes to spare I shall be changing out these drying agent, a basic housekeeping task for me. Looks like the reseller is not up to the task, I was overestimating them and guessing (wrongly) there is some problem with Mantis basic design when the unit could become mouldy under "expert" care.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 09:39:22 am
content: And it is still more important in a tropical/equatorial country to maintain properly your equipment ! (high humidity and high temperatures are favorable for growing of fungus)

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 10:54:05 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on October 17, 2016, 09:21:56 amand also istr reading somewhere that mantis uses nikon lens, mantis doesnt design lens optic in factory, they only design the enclosure and optic path. the problem is, some good lens coating compounds will attract fungus more then the other compounds. analogy to rohs lead-free solder, safer green-world but attract tin whisker more and difficult to hand solder. so its hardly can be said as design problem, more like compromise or inevitable effect. btw another easiest method to cope with fungus if one is not to have dehumidifier, is just put the mantis, or the lens part only in a display glass where people activity is frequent, zero maintenance but provide some level of protection. dessicant maintenance can be tiresome, if the enclosure is not really air tight, dessicant can filled up in matter of days.edit: striked, maybe mantis source optic from another manufacturer or even made it by themselves i'm not sure, but the point is still same about lenses. btw mantis optic looks cheapy and overpricey when checking in ebay, the optic looks very similar to china magnification add-on lenses. special lens you'll see special rainbow colour out of it. its the special coating inside. maybe mantis lens price is about 1% optic, 99% brand.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 12:08:42 pm
content: Fungus grows only if moisture is higher than 60%Look what happens in São Paulo when it's raining.In such climatic conditions, maintaining correctly your high precision optics is not an option, it is an absolute and essential precaution.The seller or the people who used this Mantis did not care of this, Vision Engineering is not responsible of this.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 12:19:32 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 17, 2016, 12:08:42 pmthere are many type of fungus. fungus that eat paint, they are greeny blackish fungus they are resilient to sunlight. only some special chemical in paint that prohibit their growth. fungus on lens coating is another type. whats common among them one of it is they drink the same water, not necessarily in liquid form, they are so small they can take a single floating H2O and drink full with it.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 12:28:21 pm
content: Perhaps some problem of traduction....moisture = I mean humidity of the air.I am not very fluent in English.....

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 01:04:24 pm
content: yup nothing wrong with that, humid = moisture = water = fungus growth, what i meant is fungus on the lens dont grow greeny (except i guess if the area reached 99% dew points for months), so i suspect they are of different species that grow on walls. and another point is you cant control moisture in open air like walls, but with lens, you can have some control. preventation is better then remedy. different angle of attack, between walls and lenses. walls you cant put in small dry enclosure, but luckily you can paint it with any chemicals you like. lenses is totally the other way around.Quote from: oldway on October 17, 2016, 12:08:42 pmmy less than ideal diy drybox always register more than that, sometime 70%, where outside (in the room), can sometime reach 80%++ humidity. outdoor? dont ask, we are at the equator just as you. flood? dont ask, that no wheathergod's fault, that's human made drainage system and water retention plan's is at fault. wherever urbanization get involved. we have on different part in our country on some season where people get killed and dragged few kilometers away due to flood, thats the real flood.but as i mentioned my drybox got special timed lighting where at night it will turned on 6PM to 6AM, those ancient tungsten thomas alva edison 12V light bulb, i designed before i know eevblog, generate heat by theory it should promote fungus, but even though greater than 60% RH, i've not register a noticable fungus trails on my equipments after years of operation, thank god i hope it will keep that way in the future, we strive and hope for the best for our tools, attacking enemy from every angles we can afford to. soon i will need a bigger and better drybox to include nonstable moisture absorbing PLA filaments for 3d prints sigh.. what i really need is time... the question is, why do i even bother posting? i should get a life

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 01:05:59 pm
content: Quote from: all_repair on October 17, 2016, 03:47:43 amIn my experience 6x is optimal for SMT work. 4x and 8x are nice to have as well. Unfortunately I don't have the space in my lab for a Mantis otherwise I would have gotten one a long time ago.

author: gturemen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 01:31:50 pm
content: Hello everyone. I have not been able to read every single post yet, however I can tell there are mixed opinions on the forum since the original message has been posted. As the Vision Engineering sales manager covering the territory, I’d like to clarify a few points made here. First of all let me make it clear that this is not an official response from Vision Engineering Ltd. I am writing on my own behalf for the sole purpose of updating those who read these forums with “our” side of the story.rodpp, who wrote the original post, was kind enough to alert us that he had been sold a defective Mantis Elite microscope by a third party that was affiliated with Vision Engineering (VE). We took the matter very seriously, because the said third party never actually bought or sold any VE products in Brazil.Now let me open brackets here and provide a little bit of background information… VE used to have arepresentativein Brazil in the past. When he left the company more than a year ago, he left some demonstration equipment that he had in his possession with a number of re-sellers that we worked with at the time, because VE did not have own premises in Brazil for storing the equipment. In addition, we had provided some of these companies with demo equipment free of charge in the past, hoping that these would help our re-sellers collect more orders. Note that I am talking about non-commercial demo equipment, not commercial goods for resale. Coincidentally, the “ex-demo Mantis Elite set” that rodpp has been sold was identical to the one that our former representative had left with the re-seller in question. Close brackets.When the issue was reported to us, the first thought was that the re-seller had sold our demo equipment without notifying us. As you would appreciate, a significant amount of investigation is required before anyone can be accused of mischief. Following on from his original complaint, rodpp also informed us of other VE equipment being sold on the same web site by the same company. Regrettably, these too were demo items loaned to the same company.Now, I am not going to go into any more specifics of the case or reveal more undue inside information; but suffice to say,we took rodpp’s complaint very seriously and acted upon it immediately.These things do not get concluded in a day or two, but take a long time to work out.Going back to rodpp’s case… The truth of the matter is that he has bought a piece of used equipment from a third party, on a local website, where anyone can sell anything. The item was not put up for sale by VE. VE did neither sell nor loan that particular item to anybody in Brazil for resale purposes. It was-again; investigation pending-most likely a piece of demo equipment that was not meant to be sold to end users. Besides, it was clearly stored in less than ideal conditions for a very long time as mould or fungus does not grow easily on these units (We supply desiccant with every system, which needs replacing periodically). Needless to say, we were never asked to provide any repair or replacement service by the re-seller at any stage. Granted this would be a frustrating experience for any consumer, the case must be taken up with the seller of the goods and not the manufacturer. I am not familiar with the website on which the system was sold (it is entirely in Portuguese); however there may be some protection for purchases made online, just like on other popular auction sites.This is not about cost of a replacement unit or being picky about the type of customers we prioritise at all. Had we provided a replacement microscope to rodpp directly, we would have practically endorsed the transaction between him and the re-seller that should never have taken place in the first place, and could have consequently implicated VE in any further action going forward.Nonetheless when rodpp contacted us with his problem, I suggested that he claim a full refund from the re-seller, since I knew that the re-seller would not be able to replace the system with a new one. I even offered him a discount on any new product that he could purchase from another distributor as a goodwill gesture for his troubles. He refused this course of action, which was the cause of my confusion about his expectation from VE, as he has referred to in one of the posts.Again, I am grateful to rodpp for bringing this to our attention and in doing so allowing us to correct some wrongs in the way our products may have been offered to customers in Brazil without our knowledge. Perhaps I was not able to explain to rodpp exactly what was going on behind the scenes, as we can only disclose so much information on an internal investigation to third parties. However, I personally don’t believe the issue warranted a complaint about “Vision Engineering after-sales support” on a popular forum, when we might in fact be one of the victims of the case. Also, this may cause unjust doubt about other VE distributors in Brazil and worldwide with whom we are privileged to work.Ultimately everybody is entitled to his/her opinion and I hope my two-cents-worth would shed some light on any question marks. Apologies for the long post, but I tried to keep it as concise as possible.All the best!G.Turemen

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 02:09:27 pm
content: Hello, welcome on the forum and thank you very much for all that explanation, It confirm almost fully my position about the situation.I lived and worked in Brazil for more than 20 years and I am acostumed with this kind of "bad experience" you and VE are actually encountering.It is now explained why the OP did not want to name the reseller: He have buy this equipment "on line" probably on "Mercado Livre"I hope you will have time to read every single post of this thread and give us your opinion about it.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 02:21:38 pm
content: G.Turemen, excellent post. It certainly sheds some light on the other side of the equation.Quote from: gturemen on October 17, 2016, 01:31:50 pmPerhaps rodpp purchased the item fromMercadolivre(eBay-like auction site)? In this case, sorry I agree with oldway here: you would have more luck trying to solve matters with the reseller (which you did), then through Mercadolivre (perhaps you didn't but thought they were an official representative of VE) and ultimately through PROCON (I agree with you, that would be my last recourse as well) leading perhaps to "Tribunal de pequenas causas" if the thing got too messy.Quote from: gturemen on October 17, 2016, 01:31:50 pmThe main issue here is importing an item versus buying one already in the country. I am pretty sure that rodpp knows what it takes to bring finished goods into Brazil - the discounted unit would quickly double its price (60% Import taxes + 18~25% local taxes) and could take months to be cleared by customs (if so). At least that is what it happens with everyone that ever tried to import something and got burned (myself included).

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 02:38:28 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 17, 2016, 02:21:38 pmNo need to import anything, there are authorized VE sellers no Brazil. Those sellers ARE NOT IMPLICATED with what happened !

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 03:31:12 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 17, 2016, 02:38:28 pmFrom VE's post I was not certain if they still had anyone in Brazil. Re-reading it I found out they seem to still have authorized re-sellers. That would definitely help the transaction, but, the final discounted price would most probably be FOB and not CIF - thus still probably making it prohibitively expensive for the end user.Again, I am not condemning VE or their re-sellers about this, but I am just trying to imagine the reason the OP (and myself numerous times) shied away from the discounted product offered by VE.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 04:09:32 pm
content: It was obvious from the beginning. When placing a bet, one must be able to take the upside as well as the down side.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 04:20:33 pm
content: QuotePrice of a "like new" Mantis is not that different from the price of a new one....Lets say 30% cheaper.If OP has buyed on website Mercado livre a "like new" Mantis at 1/10 of the new price, he was knowing that there was something wrong and he took the risk.If VE offer to OP a new Mantis with 20 or 30% rebate, that's a very fine goodwill gesture because VE is also a victim and has nothing to do with the third party who sold the defective Mantis.But first, OP has to use the legal brasilian ressources (lei de defesa do consumidor + procon) to obtain a refund from de seller.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 04:33:25 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 17, 2016, 04:20:33 pmWe can only speculate at this point regarding the original intentions of the OP and the prices he actually paid. Nothing more, nothing less.

author: FrozenHaxor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 05:10:42 pm
content: It seems to me that OP has taken a gamble with an obviously shady deal, and when realizing he was duped went straight to VE, such a strange decision. Localized legal action should have been taken months ago. This escalation to manufacturer is really curious, would you for instance complain to a chips manufacturer if a random grocery store sold you expired chips? Makes no sense in this instance, even more so when OP declined to directly name the seller in question. The attack on VE was completely wrong and unnecessary, especially when the seller was not even authorized - why OP said he was? Again, makes no sense. Honestly it seems to me like the OP got butthurt and wanted to forcefully win the situation, knowing that even the legal path wouldn't work in his favor. At least this is how I see it by reading the entire topic from the beginning.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 06:10:59 pm
content: Quote from: FrozenHaxor on October 17, 2016, 05:10:42 pmAnd guess what the OP want ?A new Mantis for the low price he paid.He has cheated, omitting essential informations, he even did not tell the true story.Even Dave was cheated and took position against VE.And you know what ? He will succeed what he want because VE has still not understood they have been cheated twice....

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 06:56:34 pm
content: Thank you for answering Mr. Turemen.Please see my comments in your text.Quote from: gturemen on October 17, 2016, 01:31:50 pm

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 08:26:59 pm
content: You clearly try to say that Mr Turemen lies.But you continue to refuse to provide any evidence.What is the name of the seller?We are asking you this from the beginningWhat is the name of the website where you purchased the device?How have you checked that the seller is an authorized seller ?Did the name of the seller appeared on the general website of Vision Enineering?As long as you refuse to answer these questions, it will remain your word against the word of VE.But Mr Turemen is more credible because he provides his name and quality, while you remain anonymous.Anyway, you can not just open a trial only against VE without the seller whose responsibility is obvious.There are many dissents about the responsability of the manufacturer, for exemple, the fact that the defect is not a manufacturing defect but a lack of maintenance, that this maintenance had to be done by the one who was in possession of the object, that this device was not intended for sale, that the seller was not an authorized seller, ...All these dissents can not be arbitrated without evidence and on a forum.As said from the beginning, you have to go to court.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 10:05:27 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 17, 2016, 06:10:59 pmQuote from: oldway on October 17, 2016, 08:26:59 pmHow old are you?

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 10:20:32 pm
content: Questions about privacy are off topic

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 10:25:04 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 17, 2016, 10:20:32 pm

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 10:44:00 pm
content: But those questions are NOT off topic and you did not answeredWhat is the name of the seller?We are asking this from the beginning and I am not the only one !What is the name of the website where you purchased the device?How have you checked that the seller is an authorized seller ?Did the name of the seller appeared on the general website of Vision Enineering?

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 11:38:47 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 17, 2016, 10:44:00 pmAs I said to you before, and it seems that you ignored, my complain here is about how VE handle their dealers mistakes.It occoured with me buying from a brazilian authorized reseller A, but it could be with B, C or any authorized reseller in Australia, Greece, USA, or anywhere around the world.You cited in this post two authorized reseller from São Paulo:Quote from: oldway on October 16, 2016, 03:41:29 pmAfter reading this thread, are you confortable to buy a Vision Engineering product from them or any other authorized reseller in Brazil?And more, do you think there is some difference buying from one of these authorized resellers or buying from some street shop without relationships with VE?To me, there is no difference at all. Vision said it is a problem between me and the seller. So, the name of the seller is not important.We must trust and rely only on the seller, choose it wise, because VE said to me that it is not their business problems between the customer and the seller.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 11:51:52 pm
content: Let me just interject here.I am a Vision Engineering Authorised re-seller, in addition to being a complete charlatan, and can sell any of their products to anyone in the entire world including Brazil.I can sell you a piece of scrap metal, or better yet, a print of the product you want (just like those old ebay scams).No matter my criminality or poor business practice, Vision Engineering are totally liable. They don't even contract with my scam!Roll up, roll up - I have Mantis scopes going for £50 each!!! Get your own and then sue VE for no good reason whatsoever!

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:04:22 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on October 17, 2016, 11:51:52 pmThe sad thing is that buying from you or buying from the authorized resellers cited above, there is no difference for VE.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:14:20 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 17, 2016, 11:38:47 pmyou can get from authorized seller a paper scam and you can also get as promised product from someone on the street. it depend on honesty of a "personality". you cannot blame other resellers or even VE for what you've experienced, prejudice is not needed. if you just name the reseller from where you get the item, everybody can get alarmed of the specific name. what you are trying to do is to protect the criminal identity and to highlight the innocent or probably others who have no direct relation to your problem. that is just plain unfair.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:14:35 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 17, 2016, 06:56:34 pm"I contacted the seller and he said they were an VE authorized reseller"If you are buying it from VE or a direct agent of VE, it should be via the VE website or maybe a website that the VE website directs you to for Brazil.But if you buy it from Ebay (or similar), that is NOT necessarily the same thing at all. Even if they say they are this or that, it is no longer official (I guess). So if it goes horribly wrong it is between you, ebay and the seller. Not anyone else.To buy something "officially", needs to be done through official channels. I.e. The VE website, or phoning VE etc etc.If it is via ebay (or similar) and the advert itself does NOT explicitly say it is the official VE dealership/resellers, then you have no proof, and it is getting very suspicious.On ebay (and similar), where it is a big/official company, it ALWAYS (or nearly always), would state this in the ebay advert (and may NOT always be true, either).Contact afterwords, is getting very suspicious and sounds very unofficial.tl;drFrom the evidence you have provided so far. It seems to be an unofficial transaction. So nothing to do with VE.It is a dangerous way of buying things like that (messages/contact afterwords), because the items may be not meant for sale, or even stolen from their workplace. Which seems to be hinted at, from the "unofficial" VE message, posted by the VE salesperson.Risk of item being unauthorized or even stolen = unofficial !Or the items may not be meant for sale.tl;drWas the transaction via ebay or similar ? (probably unofficial, sorry)Or via the VE website and where it takes you to, for additional dealerships ? (probably official) ?

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:38:39 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 18, 2016, 12:14:20 amI agree with you that things can go wrong with anyone, what is frustrating to me is how VE handled their authorized reseller mistake.I am not blaming all resellers of the world, but I think it's better to choose wise the reseller when buying VE equipment, I had a problem with one authorized reseller and they washed their hands.I will not expose the reseller name, to me is suficiente to say they are/were an authorized reseller. If you read again the Mr. Turemen answer he point a great possibility of the unit sold to me be property of VE, so a stolen item after the sale. It is very serious and I can/could not know the true. So it would be a irresponsibility of my side to expose the seller name.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:42:27 am
content: You brought up a good point. In many places, it is an offence to buy stolen goods. VE could ask the goods to be returned to them at no cost as it was stolen by a potential reseller.I don't think the OP dpes not knows VE is not liable. He is not the first, nor he shall be the last. Many had got something by unfairly complaining on this forum. For the OEM, cost of good is not so high, and many had given away to build a good name for what they see is a potential rich market. So it is for VE to judge do they want to be taken for this ride.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:50:00 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 18, 2016, 12:38:39 amThat is very honorable of you not to expose the "authorized" reseller, who appears to be the only one who has given you the runaround for 6 months and yet with no satisfaction. Meanwhile you castigate the manufacturer who had no part in your transaction whatsoever, and indeed appear to have very good reason not to engage with you at all ("stolen goods").

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:51:14 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 18, 2016, 12:38:39 amYour assertions about VE's "frustrating after sale service" hinge entirely on wether the seller is in fact an authorised seller and the manner in which it was purchased, which you refuse to come clean about, aside from saying "trust me it's true".All if this based on not wanting to be irresponsible, which is highly commendable. Why then is this courtesy not extended to VE.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:01:04 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 18, 2016, 12:14:35 amNo, I didn't contacted VE before the purchase. I did a research and verified that the seller were an authorized reseller.To clarify this point better, please see some words from Mr. Turemen related with the seller:this could be an old demo set that we have provided them with.We have received no application from SELLER_NAME as regards repairing, or temporary export etc [so they have a business relationship or that shouldn't be expected]We are now working on resolving some issues with SELLER_NAME.SELLER_NAME is NOT a representative of Vision Engineering (VE), but they were a non-exclusivereseller of VE in BrazilCoincidentally, the “ex-demo Mantis Elite set” that rodpp has been sold was identical to the one that our former representative had left with the re-seller in questionRegrettably, these too were demo items loaned to the same company.Do you think that VE is distributing demo equipments around the world to anyone or to their partners?And as I said I purchased the item direct with this authorized reseller, involving 3 different persons of that company. And I have a fiscal document issued by them.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:10:05 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on October 18, 2016, 12:42:27 amHere in Brazil too. If the item really is property of VE it must return to then.Regarding VE the only thing I said and reapeat is that it was frustrating to me the way they handled their reseller mistake.And I am not searching for anything more or less than I purchased, I don't know of where this supposed claim come from.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:12:37 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 18, 2016, 01:01:04 amAs I, and possibly others, don't have a vested financial interest in this matter, the emphasis on the above quote seems to be in a different, non-beneficial part of that sentence

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:16:06 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 18, 2016, 01:01:04 amI'm NOT 100% clear about this. (But going on what the VE salesperson "UNOFFICIALY" said in this thread).But it looks like the peopleUSE TO BEre-sellers, but were dropped (contract NOT renewed or sacked/fired) by VE.So they may have persuaded you that they were official resellers. E.g. the internet takes time for webpages to disappear. But they were no longer official resellers, as they had been dropped by VE.The "fiscal document issued by them" may not have been valid, if they have been sacked/dropped, contract not renewed.Also I'm not 100% clear, on if they ever were official resellers for/in Brazil. As the exact details have not been provided (by OP or VE salesperson). But even if they WERE, it seems to be worded in such a way to imply that they no longer were.OP, don't feel too bad, as the sellers may have been trying to sell you dodgy stuff, and claim they were still official resellers on purpose.But if that was the case, it has nothing (directly) to do with VE (UK).If they have sacked the resellers, they have done their bit to keep the official dealer network, robust/reliable and honest.There probably is a lot more to this story (on VE (UK's) side, as regards Brazilian dealers). But I fully accept that it CAN'T be put onto a public forum. For obvious reasons.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:19:15 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on October 18, 2016, 12:50:00 amI exposed what occurred and how VE handled that concluding that was a frustration to me. In my opinion VE is involved after the moment the seller is their partner.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:20:32 am
content: Quote from: gturemen on October 17, 2016, 01:31:50 pmHi Turemen, a quick question, do you know if the seller was an authorized VE reseller at the time of the sale?

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:25:56 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 18, 2016, 01:16:06 amI agree with you.Unfortunately only VE could explain to us the real situation of that reseller.They were an authorized reseller, as said by Mr. Turemen.If they aren't anymore, when that relationship finished?

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:27:34 am
content: Quote from: zapta on October 18, 2016, 01:20:32 amThe milion dollar question!Thanks.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:30:20 am
content: What's still not clear to me is why this issue has not been taken up directly with the sellerWhere I live, large electrical goods stores sell items such as washing machines, TV's, tablets, printers etc, etc. If you take it home and it doesn't work for some reason they try to tell you to take up a claim with the manufacturer, to which I have always argued successfully, I gave my money to the store, not the OEM so it's the stores that has to refund/replace the defective item. The dealings between the reseller and the OEM are none of my business. My business is with the person I gave my money to

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:34:57 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on October 18, 2016, 01:30:20 amI tried first with the seller without success.Then I tried with VE because they were partners.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:41:16 am
content: That's not true, you did not try with the seller !You could had solve your problem very easily 6 months ago, but you did not.You only had to make a claim against the seller to the brazilian PROCON and ask to a refund.The seller had to refund your money rapidly because PROCON could apply a high fine if not.But you did not this.The real reason you protect the seller who cheat on you is to discredit all VE re-sellers of São Paulo and prejudice those other sellers who are not dishonest.In fact, you encourage the crime by impunity.The dishonest seller remains with your money and you threaten VE of a legal action and you mess VE name publicly on this forum to try to blackmail and to try to force VE to take the responsability of acts they did not commit.You may be a victim initially, but your behavior is no better than the one of the dishonest seller.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:44:06 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 18, 2016, 01:25:56 amYes, it is important to find out if they were official or already sacked/cancelled/removed, at the time of your purchase. Good idea!But also what the ebay (or similar) advert said in it. Did it explicitly say it was the official dealership of VE ?You mentioned contact/emails , but that does not really count, in my opinion. As a dodgy seller, could say anything they liked, especially if dishonest.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:45:05 am
content: Quote from: oldway on October 18, 2016, 01:41:16 amYour opinion is not the last truth of the world.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:48:16 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 18, 2016, 01:44:06 amThe advertising didn't said anything related with authorized reseller. Only after the first contact it was unveiled.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:55:26 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 18, 2016, 01:48:16 amThat could be a big problem then, as I see it.Since it could be decided that you did not "officially" buy it from a reseller.tl;drYou bought it from the ebay "seller" (or similar org to ebay), which if it is NOT mentioned in the listing/advert details, is NOT the official reseller.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:56:55 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 18, 2016, 01:45:05 amAnd your story without any evidence is not fooling anyone.You have still not answered to my questions...What is the name of the seller? We are asking you this from the beginning...If your story is true, you don't have any reason to omit this information.What is the name of the website where you purchased the device?How have you checked that the seller is an authorized seller ?Did the name of the seller appeared on the general website of Vision Enineering?

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 02:11:07 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 18, 2016, 01:55:26 amNo, I think it is not clear yet.Suppose you are walking on the Tmes Square and you see an luminous advertising of a Mantis Elite with a contact. You call them and they say they are an VE authorized reseller. You do a research and they really are. Your transaction involves different persons of that company.Your purchase is from an ad in the street or from the authorized reseller?The authorized reseller becomes less authorized because the ad?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 02:22:40 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 18, 2016, 02:11:07 amDid you get a receipt/invoice after you bought it ?Often included in the packaging, when it first arrived to you.Who does that say the seller was ?If it lists the official reseller, then you are in the clear. (if they were still official resellers at the time of sale)E.g.XYZelectronics OFFICIAL resellers of VE equipment,1234567 Brazilian Street,EEVforum way,Brazil 12345 ABCDEBut if it saysXYZ,1234 Dishonest way,Dodgy goods district,Lawless Land,Brazil.Then it is not so clear cut, especially if the address details do not match any official resellers, at the time of sale.tl;drIf the receipt/invoice specifically says "official VE resellers" on it

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 02:23:26 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 18, 2016, 02:11:07 am

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 02:27:57 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 18, 2016, 02:22:40 amYes, I have that with the authorized reseller data, including address, fiscal number (CNPJ), and so on.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 02:29:25 am
content: Quote from: oldway on October 18, 2016, 01:56:55 amhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/frustrating-after-sale-vision-engineering-mantis-elite/msg1050355/#msg1050355

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 02:31:09 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 18, 2016, 02:27:57 amThen it should be official.If they were sacked/cancelled from being the official resellers, at the time of the sale. Then that would probably be fraud/dishonesty on the part of the sellers.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 02:36:21 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 18, 2016, 02:31:09 amBut that seller sells other products, of other brands too. They could have no ties with VE and still be working.In the fiscal document there is no declaration like I'm an VE authorized reseller.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 02:41:37 am
content: I do not want to believe people who can buy Mantis is so naive.Cutting through all the authorised or non auhorised. When you buy a Demo set, it normally comes without warranty. And if there is warranty, it is never between OEM and the buyer, and strictly between seller and buyer. You have to trust the seller is around to back the warranty.Getting VE involved is already unfair. Pushing it hard does not show the naivity but something more than that. If you are newbie to the industry that can afford to buy Mantis then it is a different matters.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 02:46:44 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 18, 2016, 02:29:25 amNo answer there...You wrote you will not gave the name of the seller and you do not answer to the other questions...

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 02:54:24 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on October 18, 2016, 02:41:37 amI don't think thet getting VE involved is unfair.The authorized dealer carry the VE trademark and it has a big weigh in the consumer decision. When they say "We are a Vision's local reseller/distribuitor" they are bringing trust to the table, because the consumer expect a support from the manufacturer, buying from authorized resellers. Otherwise it would be a gray market product, without any kind of support except from the seller.When the dealer and VE do an agreement (or whatever business relationship) to the dealer sell VE equipment, the dealer is exploring new markets, expanding VE presence in Brazil, bringing VE equipments to local technical fair and exibitions, presenting VE products to potential clients and so on. All this supported by VE, including providing demo equipments.If everything goes well it is good for VE and for the dealer, and it is fair.What I was expecting is if something goes wrong, mainly a harm to the consumer, that the manufacturer take responsibility to solve the problem and after that handle the problem with the partner as an internal problem

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 03:00:40 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on October 18, 2016, 02:41:37 amrodpp wrote : "To open a case in court is always my last resource, I was trying to solve this directly with the authorized reseller and with Vision Engineering without success." and also that he know very well the laws and the brazilian legal ressource....Why does he not open a case in court 6 month later ?That's not because it's always (always ? is he accustomed to initiate legal action ?) his last ressource...but because he already consulted a lawyer ...

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 03:13:38 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 18, 2016, 12:38:39 amexcuse not accepted. bragging around protecting malign and at the same timeexposing innocentis plain unjust, that's it, however you give excuses. if you want to be just and fair when protecting malign, you should also protect everybody esp who are not in direct contact with your case.you blame VE for not handling their REP properly, but hiding the fact the REP is doing malign to you and choose not to race the case with the REP, or create a thread about them, instead of this VE thread. if you think clearly, VE has conflict of interest, at some aspect they need to protect their REP while at the same time they also need to protect their reputation and sales.. the last resort and wise for them is find another REP, but that will not be a quick decision while you brag around here. the guy who just posted here highly likely is a support guy with the nicest lip you can have, for management up there do you think they give a rat arse about you? esp when the fault is not on their side? put yourself in their position and you'll know.why dont you blame yourself for purchasing a used (demo) item at cheaper price from a dishonest personel in the REP seller and promise to yourself never again will you engage in such "too good to be true" deal? you get what you pay. you blame yourself, you will get improved, everybody innocent safe. you blame others, you get worse, everybody got affected by your bad influence, just like fungus...

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 03:29:11 am
content: For me, that's clear that it is a true blackmail.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 03:37:44 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 18, 2016, 03:13:38 amI paid almost 7K Brazilian Real, it is not too good to be true for a demo unit. Just a fair price from an authorized reseller in my opinion. And I didn't got what I paid, unfortunately. The minimum wage here is 880 Brazilian Real.The VE and the authorized reseller were partners, VE supported them to sell they products. The "malign" were supported by the innocent.I am not protecting malign and exposing innocent. I was frustrated with the VE behavior and because that I opened this thread.The seller could be anyone, in anywhere. They cheated me and I know how to proceed against then here in Brazil and likely I will soon. But I can't see the point in opening a thread in Eevblog.com complaining about a local seller in Brazil. But I see in opening this thread about how VE handled the case.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 03:51:02 am
content: QuoteYes, do this first and come back here after you have a court decision that condemns VE and prove that your complaints against them are legitimate.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 03:52:18 am
content: This thread is going nowhere and getting filled up with pointless posts. Time to give it a rest, I think.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 03:52:39 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 18, 2016, 03:37:44 amit should be around 2K USD.http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=7000&From=BRL&To=USDthe new price basic unit without lens is 3K USD. 33% off with a free fungusial lens is a good dealhttp://www.gotopac.com/vision-mantis-elite.htmlQuote from: IanB on October 18, 2016, 03:52:18 amagreed certainly.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 03:57:33 am
content: It would appear to me that the OP has absolutely no claim against VE at all. Their rep has clearly stated that the equipment in question was to be utilised as DEMONSTRATION UNITS, and expressly NOT for resale. If the seller decided to sell equipment that was not his to sell, then the case is against the seller, not the manufacturer. Not sure how the law is in Brazil, but any case against the manufacturer would be thrown out in the US IMO.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 04:03:19 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on October 18, 2016, 12:42:27 amYes, receving stolen goods is illegal. The OP might be locked up in jail with a x10 magnifing glass.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 06:55:19 am
content: Quote from: gturemen on October 17, 2016, 01:31:50 pmForgive me, but I'm a still be unclear to VE's continued involvement in Brazil; were the actions of the ex-representative leaving these demo units in the hands of the re-sellers he left them with sanctioned by VE or not?QuoteThis ^ in particular is what's making me wonder.Still a good bit of clarification on VE's involvement that doesn't require further investigation, as either the previous Brazilian representative had permission to leave those units where he did or not. If not, then both the OP & VE are victims, and the only realistic alternative will be through the Brazilian legal system. Otherwise, VE at least has a moral implication here, even if there isn't a legal one. I mean, you could easily have stated on your website that the only authorized representative for Brazil =xxxor better yet, the UK home office for example (not like the OP didn't check, and just assumed their veracity based on forged trademarks and such).

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 08:37:59 am
content: You want to do an investigation, but it is totally impossible because:1) You do not have access to any evidence and you can not check anything2) OP is not sincere, it has already been shown that he tells the story that suits him and he is not neutral, he has his interests in play. ( more than 6KR$)3) The only VE person (Mr Turemen) has only limited informations about what happened in Brazil.4) OP remain anonymous so his responsability is not envolved even if he lies.5)The main actor (the seller) is not only unknown (OP deliberately hides its name) but also is clearly protected by the OP. The seller can't give us "his" version of what happened.6) The op refuses to answer to specific questions I asked to him.7) You are not located in Brazil to go and check everything personally.8 ) You know neither the laws nor the usages of Brazil.9) It seems that the whole case goes beyond the case of injury of consumer rights: they have already spoken of demo equipment possibly stolen that were not for sale. (also possible concealment, fraud and scam)10) You are not qualified to do an investigation, you are not policeman.11) You are not qualified to judge the case, you are not a judge.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 09:22:20 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 18, 2016, 01:27:34 amShould be easy for VE to answer.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 09:40:41 am
content: Quote from: eKretz on October 18, 2016, 03:57:33 amTrue but VE has not given enough incentive to return the demo units to them so they got sold instead.

author: gturemen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 10:20:22 am
content: Hello again. I thought my earlier post would have concluded the matter, but I see that it is very much a live discussion still.Having gone through most of the posts from yesterday and today, I think there is quite a big misunderstanding of the terms reseller, representative, distributor, agent, etc. I am not going to explain the differences here, as this is not the platform for that, but I suggest that people using these terms read about these online, as using one instead of the other expresses a completely different meaning. But to give you a quick overview, resellers buy and sell goods from a number of manufacturers. They are independent businesses that make money by marking up the goods they buy from their suppliers. They usually don't carry any stock. Representatives however, are either on the payroll of their principals or they are contracted to work on their behalf and therefore "represent" the manufacturer. Then there are "distributors" who usually hold stock, invest in marketing, training etc. They too represent the manufacturer on some cases, subject to the terms of their agreement, volume of business etc. Now, calling a reseller a representative is a huge mistake and I see that it is a very common one across this board. Easily done in general conversation, but one must be careful when these terms are used in a business context.As mentioned in my earlier post, we are investigating this particular case. As you would understand, revealing details of our business affairs would be gross misconduct on my part, so don't expect me to mention names and particular actions taken or not taken. The reseller in question was allowed to sell our products, yes. But what many users here -including the whistle-blower himself- do not want to realise is that no agreement gives any reseller the right to make questionable deals with end users to offload demo equipment that does not belong to them. Besides, authorising a partner of some sort to sell their products for as long as the partner is able and capable to do so, does not make the manufacturer a guarantor of the reseller.Before whole or parts of e-mail correspondence between two parties can be posted on a public platform, permission of the other party must be obtained. I don't remember giving permission to anyone for posting parts of my e-mails here. For the same reason I am not going to post here the first part of rodpp's e-mail, where he clearly turned down my offer of discount on new items and explained his reasons citing the part that he has posted in his reply to me on this forum. Because goods imported into Brazil for resale will always be more costly than goods imported for demo purposes that have no commercial value.I learnt through experience that if something looks too good to be true, you can bet your money that it isn't true!I was not aware of the consumer protection system being so efficient in Brazil before getting myself involved in this discussion. This looks to me like the perfect route for rodpp for pursuing his case. I'm afraid getting into endless exchanges with me or other users of this platform will only end in more time wasted and the problem will remain.Thanks for reading.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 11:14:11 am
content: I think it's time to lock this threat.Vision Engineering has clearly said they stop participating .As Mr Turemen said:Quote

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 11:26:43 am
content: To summarize:I purchased a demo unit from a VE authorized reseller;The item wad not intended to be sold and I was cheated;VE said they can't do anything regarding their authorized reseller;I will need to solve this by myself.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 11:37:43 am
content: To be fair a manufacturer won't have any legal power over a distributor other than to terminate the distributorship etc. something they may be unwilling to do.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 11:45:43 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 18, 2016, 11:26:43 amsimply file a complaint with the procon near your home.http://www.portaldoconsumidor.gov.br/procon.asp?acao=buscarIt is free and you do not need a lawyer....and it really works....

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:06:44 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 18, 2016, 11:37:43 am'to be fair'?They have the power but chose not to use it so it's valid to question that decision, especially after they suggest that their authorised reseller evaded custom duties, cheated them and a customer and didn't maintain their equipment properly.Their response to the customer is "it's your problem". I am not impressed.

author: gturemen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:35:16 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 18, 2016, 11:26:43 amYou need to stop twisting the facts in the way you want to see them:1) VE did NOT say they can't do anything regarding the reseller.2) VE can do something about the reseller, but this is VE business and will not be discussed here.3) VE said that you have to pursue your case against the company who sold you the defective item, within the legal means that are clearly available to you.4) VE will do you a favour and make sure that the item you returned to the reseller for repair is not returned to you again. Because this is potentially illegal and you could be implicated too.5) I had already told you these before.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:45:28 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 18, 2016, 12:06:44 pmThat's wrong.VE (or any other manufacturer) can't terminate the distributorship without a legal basis. There are probably high fees to be paid by VE (or other) in this case. Or the seller will pretend for such fees in justice.You don't know the agreements between VE and the seller (if any ?)And there are still no convictions in the justice against the seller that could legally justify the end of the distributorship.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:58:20 pm
content: I would be very interest to know who is the OP's employer and see what is their position and views on this matter and their company policy.If it is the same, I would want to buy some of their stolen demo sets from their resellers too.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:24:06 pm
content: Quote from: gturemen on October 18, 2016, 12:35:16 pmObviously I was talking about doing something to solve my case with your authorized reseller. Other than that is your business, I agree, not mine.And thanks for your favour!To me VE may be doing something regarding the authorized seller only in the VE interests, always.So, to summarize more clear:I purchased a demo unit from a VE authorized reseller;The item was not intended to be sold and I was cheated;VE said they can't do anything to my case regarding their authorized reseller;I will need to solve this by myself.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:29:58 pm
content: Quote from: all_repair on October 18, 2016, 12:58:20 pmDo you think that every company has and support authorized resellers that sells stolen demo sets under the company trademark?

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 02:04:21 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 18, 2016, 01:29:58 pmOf course, no.... in Brazil, everybody is honest.I lived in São Paulo and while I was away on a journey to Europe, a salesman came with supposedly customers to visit and sell my property ...Fortunately, the neighbor intervened, otherwise I found people installed at home wondering money to quit my domicile, arguing that they had paid an advance in good faith to the salesman....

author: FrozenHaxor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 08:31:30 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 18, 2016, 03:29:11 amIt's sad to me how some people leverage the reputation of this forum for their own benefits. OP should be banned at this point for stirring up such a nonsense. Other companies might look skeptical at further legitimate complaints in the future due to this.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 09:31:03 pm
content: My frustration with VE can be nonsense to you, no problem.I was expecting that VE could do something to help me solve this issue with their authorized reseller that VE supports and that use VE trademark. They didn't.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 10:34:56 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 19, 2016, 09:31:03 pmOh Hi! I recently stabbed my eye with a fork when reading your thread. As you are the originator of this thread, much like VE is the original manufacturer of your microscope, I think I am entitled to compensation from you despite having no commercial relationship with you whatsoever. I'm sure you understand. Please send me 6000 REAL by PM. Ok, thanks.Bye!

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 10:44:17 pm
content: What occurred in this case I think everyone here agrees:1- The item was advertised as a demo unit in perfect working condition, like new. In reality it were a very used equipment infested of fungus, inadequate to use.2- The seller were an VE authorized reseller when I purchased the equipment, maybe they are yet, maybe they aren't now.3- I tried to solve this issue directly with the VE authorized reseller without success.4- I escalated the case to VE and new facts were unveiled, as a suspect that the VE authorized reseller was selling VE property, their demo units not intended to be sold, but it is under investigation by VE.5- After analyzing the case VE concluded that they will not help me to solve this issue with their authorized reseller.6- If I want to solve this I have to open a case in court against the VE authorized reseller.I think that where we are disagreeing is if VE should or shouldn't help me.Some users understand that VE shouldn't help me, and they have their reasons.I, and maybe some others too, understand that VE should help me, and we have our reasons too.If we disagree in any numbered items above, I think we must clarify. Otherwise it is a personal matter in my opinion.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 12:11:13 am
content: You took a bet. It did not turn up in your favour. Take the loss like a man. But you are trying your twisted logic and trying to bad-name VE to get them to cover for your mis-judegement.Reseller is just trader. There is not much meaning in the "authorised" (those who want to read more into it should read up on business 101), even "exclusive reseller" is just another trader. The are many more weasel words used for marketing. If you do not know, read it up. I know you know from the way you are writing and phasing your postings. You bought a stolen goods that was stolen from VE. Instead of reporting to your consumer protection agency or your police, and return the stolen goods. You are trying to further blackmail VE. There is a high chance that you bought them for your company and your job is at stake and so you are desperate. If it is so, best you stop pushing now. Someone who knows your employer might bring up your behaviours with your employer. And you shall be fired. If you are under the instructions of your employer, your employer reputation shall be tarnished in the industry

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 12:37:56 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 19, 2016, 10:44:17 pmYou know everyone here doesn't agree, or the thread would not be so long.You persist in refusing to understand that a "demo" unit is a second hand, previously used item. It was not new, it was not direct from the manufacturer, you were not the first owner. You should have known this when you bought it, just as I know that if I buy an "ex-demo" car from a car dealer, I am buying a used car and not a new car.Your complaint becomes a complaint against the seller, who falsely described the goods to you, and you therefore have to obtain your remedy from the seller and no other party.Please give up these fantastic claims you keep making and accept reality.I am amazed this thread hasn't been locked already.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 01:47:24 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 19, 2016, 10:44:17 pmit seems in your frustration, you still dont get it, albeit several time explained to you. "fungus" has nothing to do with "very used". what is your proof of "very used"? do you see scratched everywhere external appearance? do you see broken knobs? scratch paints, dented enclosure? those are "very used" signs. otoh you can buy a perfectly new item out of clean room, bring it home, dont use it and store in some favourite room, 1 year later take it out for 1st time use and the lens is beyond repair... get it? otoh if the item is infact is "very used", it will be unlikely fungus developed due to constant exposure to light.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 02:03:23 am
content: If this thread goes on much longer it's going to develop a fungus...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 06:32:41 am
content: You should be dealing with your local distributor through YOUR countries law enforcement. What VE do with respect to their distributor is their problem and not something you have any right to know about, they have nothing to do with you an operate under a different legal juridstiction. Why don't you name and shame and bad mouth the reseller instead of make a case against an innocent manufacturer that has it's hands tied ? When two companies are in two different countries legal action is much harder, usually commercial factors play a bigger role, VE does not own the reseller. You requests and expectations are totally unreasonable and you are just making a buffoon of yourself.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 08:49:02 am
content: You are a liar and a crook.In Brazil, one must be wary of everyone and everything and you knows this because you are Brazilian.In Brazil, no one would buy a used equipment that cost more than 6.000 R$ on a website without taking basic precautions, such as going on site to check the status of what you buy.You say you are an innocent victim, this is not true.You bought this equipment in the full knowledge that there was a problem, you take risks and you lost.You are fundamentally dishonest because you use your errors to try to win the jackpot by blackmailing.No, you do not want just that VE will refund yours 6KR$ !!!!You want anewMantis Elite which value in Brazil is more than double of this money.The proof of your dishonesty is obvious: you have all the facilities to resolve the problem quickly by appealing to the PROCON, but you did not.Instead, you come on a forum publicly sully the name of VE to blackmail.Your attitude is disgusting and instead of VE, I would not do any favour for you, you do not deserve it.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 09:06:24 am
content: Quote from: Simon on October 20, 2016, 06:32:41 am

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 09:53:35 am
content: I asked Dave to lock this thread but he did not.VE and the members of this forum have already given you a clear answer.Your insistence is unhealthy and unwelcome and demonstrates your bad intentions.This becomes clearly public defamation against a company whose name is mentioned.This certainly causes financial and moral damages to VE, which, in my opinion, would be legally well founded to seek judicial redress.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 10:00:46 am
content: Quote from: oldway on October 20, 2016, 09:53:35 amStop posting yourself would be a good start of the end of the thread, you've said everything there is to say multiple times. Let it rest.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 10:04:10 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 18, 2016, 11:26:43 amThen you were cheated by a local seller who sold something they shouldn't have. VE have no obligation (legal or moral) to help you out here. Your case is with the dealer.QuoteThe only thing they can do is drop them as an authorised dealer, and that has nothing to do with your case.QuoteYep.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 10:04:54 am
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on October 20, 2016, 10:00:46 amI was about to say the same thing.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 10:15:57 am
content: Thank you to everyone who participated of this thread.It's very clear to me how the majority understand this case, that VE has no legal or moral responsibility over their authorized resellers.I will try to solve this by myself without their help, as it seems I should had from the beginning.Thank you all again.Regards,Rodrigo.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 10:25:29 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 20, 2016, 10:15:57 amcorrected for you...

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 11:19:48 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 20, 2016, 10:25:29 amWhy? Do they have any responsibility over their authorized resellers?Or that should beresponsibility neither right?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 11:44:05 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 20, 2016, 10:15:57 amIn your sarcasm you are absolutely factually correct. VE DO NOT have any legal power over their reseller. If you buy a car and it's got a problem do you complain to the car maker or the dealer ? You are probably lucky you don't live in the same country as Ve or they would be suing you already for defamation. Now go away and sort this out!

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 12:20:39 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 20, 2016, 11:44:05 amWhat sarcasm?I recognized that the majority do not share my frustration with VE, and I appreciate the collaboration of all users that posted in this thread, even though I don't agree with their opinions.And about defamation, exposing what occurred in this case and my opinion about that is not defamation. Or I can't have my opinion, even if that option is no sense to the majority?

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 01:22:28 pm
content: Quote from: gturemen on October 18, 2016, 10:20:22 amA bit OT perhaps but just so that the poster is aware:Actually this is one of the few forums in the world where the concept of being too good to be true does not really hold true. As example, many of us envy what sort of test equipment others seem to find in their dumpster (all I ever find are crusty printers, old TVs and decomposing vegetables).And as many on the metrology forum have shown you can buy old, non-working stuff on fleabay and with luck - it will cost you nearly nothing to repair and get world class equipment into your lab.Just tried my first and scored a (550$ list) Datel Voltage Calibrator for $20 non-working (ended up needing a new LCD which cost 25$ from Datel, and a squirt of contact cleaner - Calibration was spot on as well). But I did not expect Datel (now Calibrator's Inc) to fix it - or even have spares - I was lucky in that respect (and they were very friendly and waived the $50 minimum order for spares).Back OT:If the seller sold the instrument under warranty VE would be required to help. If it was sold NOS without expressed warranty - I don't know why VE would help without at least recovering their costs.BTW - why not just fix it? How much is a replacement lens? Can a camera/lens professional in Sao Paolo clean the lens or is it shot...? Maybe the entire thing is 100$ to fix???

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 01:26:35 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 20, 2016, 10:15:57 amThatauthorized? reseller never bought anything from VE, nor paid them a cent ever. You bought auseddemo unit basically stolen from VE, and now VE is responsible for it?And the most of it, by refusing to tell who thatauthorizedreseller was, we cannot be even be sure that you even bought it at all. Maybe you tried to play some kind of scam, who knows.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 01:40:30 pm
content: Quote from: Assafl on October 20, 2016, 01:22:28 pmThe unit was advertised with a 12 months warranty. As it is clear now, that warranty could never be from VE because of everything dicussed in this thread.About fixing it, with the suspect unveiled by VE that the item much probably is property of VE, it must be returned to them.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 01:59:44 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 20, 2016, 01:26:35 pmUnfortunately only VE can say for sure the situation of their business relationship. In the previous posts Mr. Turemen from VE said "The reseller in question was allowed to sell our products, yes."But after all, that is not relevant anymore. Should this reseller be an authorized reseller or not, the understanding is that VE ins't responsible for them.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 02:55:36 pm
content: i have not read the entire thread and have no interest to enter in the legal debacle , but :That machine is easy to clean. (picutres on first page) . the lens is not a problem. wipe it off and done.pop the black portion of the mantis off (there are 2 screws) take visor assembly out and wipe down with a microscope cleaning cloth and 10% ammonia in distilled water solution.clean mirror inside as well.the bottom glass part is also easy to remove.i used to clean the mantises in our lab every year . they collected a coating of soldering smoke ...piece of cake ...

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 03:02:20 pm
content: coating of soldering smoke? yeah you have not read the whole thread... goto page 3, somewhere there...and given the stubbornness of the man up on the stage, further advice will be futile...

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 03:04:07 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 20, 2016, 02:55:36 pmThanks!But VE unveiled a suspect that the item much probably is property of VE, so it must be returned to them:Quote from: gturemen on October 18, 2016, 12:35:16 pm

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 03:28:38 pm
content: Most of the people on this forum does not know nothing about brazilians laws so I think I have to give some informations about it because they will have to be applied in this case:Basically, the Brazilian consumer defence code provides for joint responsability of the seller and manufacturer.This is what OP try to apply here.But in this case, that's the art 12 §3 - 1 who must be apply because It was a demo equipment who was not intended to be placed on the market by the manufacturer.§ 3° O fabricante, o construtor, o produtor ou importador só não será responsabilizado quando provar:I - que não colocou o produto no mercado;...http://www.idec.org.br/consultas/codigo-de-defesa-do-consumidor/capitulo-ivThe manufacturer has no responsability because he did not placed the product on the marked, it has been placed on the market of an illegal manner by the seller and without autorizationFurthermore, it is clear that OP don't want to sort this out with the seller.Why ?

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 03:45:56 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 20, 2016, 03:28:38 pmQuote from: rodpp on October 20, 2016, 10:15:57 am

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 03:48:50 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 20, 2016, 03:45:56 pmWhat you wrote:QuoteThen why are you insisting ?

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 03:54:18 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 20, 2016, 03:48:50 pmI am not insisting. I already said that I will solve this by myself.I do not expect any help from VE anymore.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 04:15:58 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 20, 2016, 03:54:18 pmThen, do it and go away, as Simon said.You update your thread only to have more readers and you go on further with your finality to smear EV nameYou know you are wrong and you did not even changed the tittle of your thread, nor apologied with EV.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 04:27:59 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 20, 2016, 04:15:58 pmI and any other user can comment this an any other threads.I know that the majority here don't share my frustration, but in my opinion VE should have helped me.So I have no apologies to give, but I respect their (VE) position and the opinion of all users.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 04:58:52 pm
content: VE's mistake was to string the OP along for a couple of weeks, giving the impression they were going to help him. Then told him to go away. ..If they came out with we can't help, from the start, the OP would have know where he stood. They could also have easily have offered to sell him spare parts for a reasonable cost, but chosed not to.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 05:36:32 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on October 20, 2016, 04:58:52 pmThey probably needed some time to find out what was going on.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 09:36:21 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 20, 2016, 03:54:18 pmSo can this thread end now and everyone drop it?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 10:00:17 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 20, 2016, 09:36:21 pmYes, it seems to have come to an end and/or is beginning to get into an exchange of partial insults.Also there seems to be a lot of going round and round in circles in this thread, which is getting nowhere.I agree, best to lock it.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 11:17:47 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 20, 2016, 09:36:21 pmYes, I agree too.And thanks again to everyone who spent their time to contribute here.

author: Mickster
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 01:05:11 am
content: IMHO, as the reseller did not have authorization from VE to physically sell those demonstration items, you are absolutely out of pocket and your case is solely with the reseller. Name them and take legal action against them!VE did seem to try to help, by offering a new item at a discount. Not a single cent of the initial sale from the reseller made it's way back to VE, so VE would have been out of pocket with the gesture, but that course of action was not deemed to be good enough. You wanted a brand new Mantis at used prices.If you are not willing to name/take action against the reseller, you endorse their actions and deserve what you get.My $0.02.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 08:30:59 am
content: If they promised 12 months warranty but sold you a product without a warranty and - worse - a product that was not theirs then you were scammed.I am sure most of what is on ebay and other sites is legit. But whenever I buy something on ebay I always wonder if indeed it is. Sure - I always try to see if they hide the SN (or worse - scratch it off). But some of the electronics junkyards - one wonders about just how they get their stuff...Never thought about the scenario of a VAR walking away with demo products. That is a new one to worry about... What if Mouser sells you a demo uA741? (Hypothetical - Mouser is great and 741 is cents, and no manufacturer will accept a reel back anyway...)

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 09:06:36 am
content: Quote from: Mickster on October 21, 2016, 01:05:11 amThis is really going round and round in circles as MK14 said.I never asked for a new unit, I am and will be searching for what I paid, not more not less.Regarding the VE proposal of try a full refund from the authorized reseller and get a discount in a new unit I said it probably would cost too much to me get wat I already have the right, but I asked Mr. Turemen to send me the price to evaluate. If the difference was not too big it would be a solution to avoid a case in court. See my exact words sent to them:Regarding a full refund of my payment, I can say that after more than 5 months waiting that is not a good option for me now, and I will explain my reasons.According to brazilian law (Código de Defesa do Consumidor, Lei 8.078/1990) I had 7 days from the first delivery date to return the equipment for a full refund, no questions asked (Art. 49). I opted to not use this right and sent the equipment to repair in the waranty, because I need the equipment.And more, if after 30 days the problem was not fixed, I have the following options of my choice (Art. 18):I - replace the equipment with another one of the same model in perfect conditions;II - full refund of the payed value plus monetary correction, without prejudice to any losses and damages;III - proportional reduction in the price.As I need the equipment, my option is to replace the equipment with another one of the same model in perfect conditions. I cited the law to show you that my claim to replace the equipment with another one in perfect conditions is just my right, it is not abusive or absurd in any way.If I choose a full refund as you sugested, and buy another one from other of your dealers, I will need to spend a lot more money to simply "replace the equipment with another one of the same model in perfect conditions" that is already my right.The total amount paid was R$6,819.54 for:- Mantis Elite head with standard support;- 4x objective lens;- 8x objective lens;- 15x objective lens;- Transportation bag;- Shipping costs.Please check with your dealers the final price after the extra discount, in brazilian currency, of the same set of equipments. If the value is reasonable that could be a solution to avoid the headache of a case in court.Thank you again for yours efforts.Best Regards,Rodrigo.I never received that price to evaluate.And I will be trying to solve that with the authorized reseller, without VE help, I said that a lot of times but it seems no one understands.