epoxy granite cheap machine tool filling? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 09:12:41 pm
content: So certain proxxon tools use things like extrusions (not to mention stuff like ryobi scroller saw) that are hollow.I notice some of these things seem to vibrate quite a bit when cutting tougher materials, for instance my scroll saw literary wants to jump up and down cutting any sort of metal. There is a material called epoxy granite that claims to dampen 30x better then cast iron and 3x better then solid granite.Do you think that filling these tools up with epoxy granite would make them run quieter and smoother? It's density is similar to that of aluminum, so it wont make them too unweildly.or even say the post of a common 14 inch bench top drill press.Not sure what kind of granite I would need, but its pretty cheaphttps://www.ebay.com/itm/Crushed-Granite-Aggregate-for-Concrete-Countertops-5-lb/391891219512?var=660869029785&hash=item5b3e897438:g:KvwAAOSwl8NVZdu1https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoxy_granitepeople use west systems epoxy for this on youtube alot

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 05:45:29 am
content: If you do this, maybe you could post a followup with your findings? You come up with a lot of fringe ideas, but if you actually ever follow through with any of them, we would never know.A hint as what you're up to would be nice, as well. I still remember when you were planning to build a ceramics forge in your garage. For making small "samples." W/e that means.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 05:52:11 am
content: $$$i got vacuum plumbing since then but all this shit is super expensive, I carburized some parts and looked at a microscope and got bored its not as exciting as I thought, same as microwave you demodulate some signals at 18 GHz where its supposed to be all crazy then you have nothing to do with it (my main complaint with the signal path)the little workshop stuff is better because it does not have a lead time in the eons hunting ebay deals for odd industrial crapI think a solenoid is the most interesting electronic device I have seen in the last year. too much of this hobby stuff is advertisement projects for finding employment & consulting services etc (looking at you LISN), you quickly realize its not very exciting as videos and posts seem to show (how much of this is just to have some kind of nerd office talk? )too much of the advanced metallurgy / precision mechanics is like, only applicable to guns. maybe telescopes are a bit more interesting idgaf about guns pew pew, but then you might as well try to hack a observatory for tool time LOL because telescopes are a total measuring contest for me, but hey getting things done in corporate even with support is like wading through knee deep mud unless your some serious overlord so it has some merit to do some of this stuff yourself but its all pretty lackluster compared to videogames

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 05:51:56 am
content: does anyone have recommendations on a mixture to use? I want to try it on my milling machine slides.I imagined mixing it up, vacuuming it in a thin layer (like a salsa dip) with 1 component of epoxy, then mixing the other component and revacuuming it, packing it and leaving it to cure connected to some kind of knocking machine or vibrator.Should I go for maximum stiffness? Or is it stiff enough and should I go for something more gooey? Maybe just epoxy with no granite since its already designed stiff.I only get one shot at doing this at a significant cost.Maybe even adding powdered rubber or cured powdered silicone?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 06:40:31 am
content: Liking this idea.Maybe it is an advantage if the concoction is not maximally stiff, in so far as it might help dampen vibrations in the tool?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 07:14:32 am
content: I see loads of options, I am thinking maybe lead shot + sand ( I happen to have both ) + epoxy

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 07:56:29 am
content: This idea has been done a lot by many people. Pretty much all very high end mills nowadays have epoxy granite frames with the moving parts cast iron.However it’s not what you would call cheap and easy. You need the epoxy first which is pretty expensive, you need clean sand, and then rocks if you decide you need them. (Hint, it’s easier to get good results with just sand). Then you MUST have a vibration table to vibrate your assembly on while it goes off. Otherwise the bubbles won’t come out.There are tons of YouTube videos on the topic. You could watch them till you get bored then move onto your next ill-conceived scheme.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 09:27:06 am
content: You might find this useful as well:

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 12:18:43 pm
content: there is no videos on filling existing structures, only making brand new ones. And they might only have internal metal structures, not external ones.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 10:23:27 pm
content: is it at all useful to analyze this problem like microwaves in a waveguide, or maybe like mirrors, where you draw the incident wave and the reflected wave and see cancellations etc?Like if you want to simulate a single impact on a piece of paper to get a general idea.so in a hollow square tube, if you hit a side, the opposite side will kinda flop around based on the length of the other two walls in terms of peak? so the mechanical energy density is basically spread out over a wider area once its filled, like so a post that is filled gets ping ponged around , rather then something complicated being hollow?like normally you have two ping pong games separated by some distance, that causes phase delay, while the filled block turns into one ping pong game?is there a mechanical wave zigzagging around in there, be it in the thin side plate going to the bottom and residuals through the other walls? so 1 vs 2 zigzags (i assume the side walls in a square tube are so thick there not really vibrating much at the corners, its only vibrating towards the middle?, so like face 1 and 4 would vibrate down the middle, but what happens to faces 2 and 3 which are perpendicular?since there is a delay to get to the back plate, do they wobble with high stresses at the corners of the post, so you get two two vibrating lines and 2 kettle drums looking at it from the top in a eagle eyes view?

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 10:47:52 pm
content: Here is a guy filling up extrusions to dampen an existing flimsy CNC router:

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 12:14:38 am
content: QuoteYou're talking a couple layers too deep for me to follow. But if I'm getting the gist, I think yes, you can engineer supporting structures for different characteristics. You might be overcomplicating things beyond practical, though. (surprise, surprise).The main thing you want to reduce, IMO, is resonant vibrations. To this effect, when I want to shore up say a wooden load-bearing structure to reduce chatter, I might drive a bunch of large screws or bolts and nuts through the wood to stiffen it. But I would do it at a bunch of completely random angles, to try to dampen any resonant vibrations. I don't know if that is helping or even hurting.QuoteYet another thread where you come up with a very specific plan as if you are actually going to do anything. But if this is like all your other threads, it will end up with you asking ever more abstract and/or tangential questions to yourself and no results or experience or discovery at the end of it, as far as anyone other than yourself would know.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 12:15:49 am
content: thats what the sand does right, there is random least impedance contact points between the grains of sand, so a hit gets 'diffracted right?Like, they are not perfect spheres, so it will tend to 'get through in a particular direction from the hit which is going to get scattered.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 12:20:07 am
content: and the reflection depends on the stiffness, so if the stiff grain of sand is against the stiff aluminum it gets transmitted, but the soft area gets a reflection?like its a branch of newtons cradles that is arranged like a pyramid?and where the branches are dead ends, the last 'ball' wants to move forward, compressing the epoxy and turning into heat?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 12:22:56 am
content: then when it rebounds it is preturbed because its moment is not perfectly centered spherical, so it might contact something at a different angle and diffract further what is not turned into heat?is that why things spall, where you get a cone ripped out of the material?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 12:26:28 am
content: I think you will find the results hit or miss.There are several things going on at once and this treatment may be magic in one application and do little or nothing in another.1. You are adding mass to several bending mode spring mass systems, which will tend to lower resonant frequencies. Which is good if it shifts these resonances away from vibration source frequencies, bad if it shifts them towards. I wouldn't expect large damping changes in lower bending mode resonances since most of the energy storage and release is in the surface aluminum layers.2. You are adding a major dispersive element in compression mode resonances due to the mismatch in sound velocity in aluminum and the epoxy composite. Generally a good thing, but in tools compression mode resonances don't seem to be a likely dominant issue.3. Major shift upward in plate bending resonance frequencies and probably significant damping also. In some systems (square tubing) this might be really noticeable.You might want to try bolting (or clamping) your scroll saw to a heavy table first. Lot's easier and a good chance that it will solve your problem.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 12:47:12 am
content: I hate doing that because I don't have room for a permanent scroll saw and it takes a while to screw down bolts etc, if I can just move it into place I am more likely to do somethingI thought about making some kind of quick release system for all the bench tools on a heavy plate.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 02:39:42 am
content: A compromise solution for you would be to figure out how much mass you would add by filling all the tubes and then make a baseplate of that mass and bolt it permanently to the tool. Again much easier to accomplish (and less chance of a major oops like getting epoxy on the functional surfaces) and preserves the portability/storability. No promises on the results but it is likely to help.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 02:48:06 am
content: ^Cmon, now. If this thread ends with a picture of a brand spanking new Proxxon milling machine filled with epoxy goo, I will be very satisfied. That would be a totally unexpected result of a Copper thread.And I bet it helps. Unless there are some big temperature swings to account for, I can't imagine too much of a problem.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:29:55 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on August 09, 2019, 02:48:06 amIf it helps I can suggest a pattern to etch or mill into the baseplate that would enhance phonon scattering. A picture of that might tickle your innards.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:35:56 am
content: this thread has too much drama in it

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 01:47:53 pm
content: harsh reality is that sand fill epoxy bypasses Vaseline mold release, and that the column proxxon shipped is not exactly true to the base. I have like 0.008 after 6 inchesI wonder if I heat it up again and smack it with a lead hammer if it will release the column. Then I can flatten it.Maybe it ends up straitening out when you put the mill head on it.If you do this, get your column strait first before you pour the glue in. I mean I am dubious it was designed to be better because its sits on top of paint ? but still.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 04:37:49 pm
content: Which compound table is it, by the way?KT 70orKT 150?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 05:38:41 pm
content: 70'just measuring the base with the column though, not the table.Not sure what that doesthat table I got came in fucked up too, the mailman vanadalized it. I actually super glued it back together with clamps lol, seems to hold, there was a crack in the dovetailI am not too serious about all this

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 03:58:28 am
content: can't tell if I am just being more confident with the machine, but it feels like it has more power. I just took a deep cut on a pair of crappy lineman pliers and it felt better I think (to see if I can make this shitty grind true. But I do think the top screw handle is vibrating a bit.I think it feels less 'hogged down' ? My instinct was not so much "don't push too hard because the endmill will break".. But I did push a bit too hard because the thing started throwing sparks lol (but tungsten endmill is OK).I did also clean up the screw holes for mounting the base.. I was wondering why they were so fucking tight, ton of paint came out of them actually (poor QC at proxxon).

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 10:58:22 pm
content: Your threads are such shit. Why don't you tell us what you ended up actually doing? You skipped the entire part where anyone else might actually give a rat's ass.Did you use a vacuum chamber? Did you attempt to build a vibration table? What epoxy and what ingredients did you add? Did you just mix some sand and epoxy in a tub and whack the side with a spoon?Let alone you could have set up some sort of before and after quantitative test. Why do you even own your fancy measuring equipment?

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 11:25:56 pm
content: Stardate 10:02:40002Captain Coppercone: I took a crap, today. It was sorta big and lumpy. Do you guys know why? Do you think it could be firmer and more regular? Why do you think it is lumpy? Is it because I ate corn? What if I ran my corn through a laser cutter before I ate it? Do you think my poop would be less lumpy?I have thousands of dollars of equipment made specifically to measure the lumpiness of a turd down to 2 thousandths of a millimeter, but I'm not going to actually use any of it. I am saving that for stuff that matters. Ultimately, I want to build a dehumidifier cabinet to store all this equipment so it will remain unused until it appreciates, and I will be rich in 30 years. I mean do you know what a V block goes for, these days? Do you!? BTW, I just got my first Proxxon mill 3 weeks ago, so I know what I'm talking about.So I am not going to use my valuable measuring equipment to measure the deflection and chatter and alignment of my mill whilst making massive irreversible changes to it. Why would you waste this stuff on something so unimportant? When it could be sitting in an un-dehumidified cabinet, waiting to be moved to a dehumidified cabinet, where I know it will be cash money, forever? Always there, in case I need it. For something more important. I rather pop a squat, squeeze one out, smear it around, and just tell you guys what color it is. I mean I'm not going to tell you guys exactly what I changed with my diet, because fuck you for asking the secrets of my Mueller report. I will, however, regale you with tales of my stool quality, before and after, just in case you were curious. I'll say it felt like this crap subjectively squeezed out a little easier than before, and it pinched off real nice. And it's brown.That is all. Standby for future updates. Subscribe and follow all my toilet bowl adventures. I have 6 other related threads clogging up this section of the forum which you might want to visit. Excuse me, but I have another bun in the oven, and it's starting to crown.This is just another Coppercone thread.... outtro:My secret Mueller report, it brings the boys to the yardThey want to see it all, but I hide one partDo I bake it and shake it and put it in a vacOr do I put it in a bowl and give it a whackWhat is the secret, I bet you want to knowBut if you want it, you better put a ring on it, thoughMy secret Mueller report, it brings the boys to the yardI like the attention, so I show one card.I mix it and bake it, and I shake it, nonstop.Then I lock it in a cabinet with my 1-2-3 block.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2019, 12:09:08 am
content: you sound like you wanna poke my turd with a durometer now