Help Selecting a Microscope (Canada) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: rkagerer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 05:13:40 am
content: I posted this on another site but didn't get much traction, so thought I'd try again here. I'm looking for help buying a microscope to be used mainly for electronics work. Here's what I'm thinking:ARTICULATING STANDI'm set on an articulating arm stand as I think it will best fit my workspace. Idea being I can quickly grab and position it when needed, then fold it out of the way when not in use (which will be most of the time). I know these are more wobbly than double-arm boom stands, e.g. Louis Rossmann (video below) actually got rid of his Amscope arm after viewers complained it made his videos shake too much. I'm a bit wary of that, and for a while I was even checking out heavier-duty surgical microscope stands.Someone at Microscope.com told me the the Acrobat stand is very robust and designed so you can lean your head against the headrest. I like that in principle, although it has less degrees of freedom at its joints so won't "route" as nicely from the mounting spot to my workspace (I'd basically have to mount it almost 180° sideways to the work area).I'm going to start with a desk clamp/mount, but plan to replace the vertical pillar with a custom post securely mounted between my desktop and a cabinet overhead. I'll route a fume extractor duct along the stand, like seen in the Union Repair video below.I've identified a few models:Amscope / Omax:39" (maybe 41") reach20" vertical travelVideo reviewby CorgitronicsUnboxing and video reviewby Louis RossmannOmano:~36" reachMarketing videoVideoby Union RepairAnother videoby Louis Rossmann, comparing it from the perspective of jitter to a single-arm boomGRS Acrobat / Meiji CR-2:31" reach34" vertical travelGRS Acrobat Versa:Updated, slimmer version of aboveProduct linkLabomed:Configurable for desk/wall/ceiling/floor mountProduct linkSearch Google for wall mount microscope for other surgical armsMICROSCOPEI'm thinking trinocular with a "simul-focus" feature (or whatever it's branded), so I can simultaneously look through both eyepieces and use the camera, and avoid having to refocus when switching between the two.Someone recommended having at least 8" working distance for clearance to work with a soldering iron underneath.I'm considering the Amscope "TP" series, Omax W43DF1 and Omano. Also Walter Products, as they're available pretty cheap from Best Buy in Canada (I was skeptical at first, but their support folks got back to me more quickly than any other brand, answered my questions more thoroughly, and when pressed said they purchase from the same manufacturer as Amscope).LENSESSeems the recommendation for SMC work is to go with an 0.5 Barlow and widefield eyepieces. e.g. EP20x30E (20X magnification, 12mm FOV). Someone also pointed out the benefit of matching the eyepiece field of view with the camera (e.g. so you don't start pointing out features the audience can't see).LAMPA ringlight seems like it would work well for me. Continuous dimming is preferable to fixed increments. Having different zones is handy to change the illumination angle and control direction in which shadows are cast (depending what side of a part you want to highlight). I'd personally prefer the controls be integrated into the unit, to avoid having yet another console to strap to the arm. Metal threaded mounting holes (e.g. brass PEM nuts) as opposed to plastic ones, which wear out.Saw a recommendation for theSCHOTT EasyLED Ringlight PLUS. The 144-LED illumination rings seem popular too.CAMERANeed some advice here, haven't researched it much. I figure it's handy to take images to document a build, get help or support on something or if I want to do a webcast down the road. Might also use it in other contexts (e.g. to get in real close to look at layer lines / defects on 3D prints and share those results with others).OTHER ACCESSORIESeyeguardscalibration slidedust coverQUESTIONSAnyother modelsor items I should consider?Any opinions onarticulating arm vs. double-arm boomstands?Any owners here who can take a precise diametermeasurementfor me of the vertical pillar on any of the above armatures? Ideas on a good place to source a similar part (but longer)?Has anyone tried out both the original Acrobat and updatedVersaarm, and able to comment on the differences? (Manufacturer says Versa is narrower, sturdier and head pivots)Any realdifferences in qualitybetween Amscope/Omax/Omano/etc. equipment? (They all kind of look like they could be made by the same Chinese manufacturers... although I've seen reports of some quirks e.g. trouble getting an 0.3X Barlow to focus in an Amscope even though it works on an OMAX)Can someone with aWalter Productsmicroscope comment on build quality vs. the above? (did ask thisonce beforebut no answer)Will all these scopes have roughly the sameworking distancewhen equipped with similar lenses?AreLeicascopes any better? Does the A60 F have more depth of focus than the ones listed above? (They claim 100% more depth of field than conventional stereo microscopes)Any thoughts whether Ireally need trinocularvs. just going binocular w/ camera eyepiece?Thoughts on an "engravers"headrest? (Can they even be used with trinoc?)I wearglasses; anything to watch out for with that?I notice all the OMAX scopes configured for higher magnifications (up to 270x) come withdual fiberlights. Why is that? Is a decent LED ring insufficient at those magnifications? For electronics work, I'll only be using the lower end, but like I said I might occasionally want to look at something else (and might want to add a 2X barlow later).Should I consider paying a bit more for aMantis(e.g. Compact) instead?Should I give serious consideration to aDino-Liteinstead? I gather these have a learning curve to get used to but some people say you get less fatigue (and it would fit a heck of a lot easier into my workspace - big monitor with lots of extra inputs is already right in front of me, and I wouldn't need to get a second, taller chair to move my head high enough to see into microscope eyepieces)Any recommendations on a good place to source this stuff inCanada? Right now I'm looking at Amazon.ca, eBay.ca and Microscopenet.com (which is based out of Kitchener).Right now one of my top contenders is this:Omax W43DF1-6B3 with articulating stand(which is probably the same item/selleras this), mainly because of ease of availability. I'd have to source a couple accessories myself e.g. ringlight, camera.Thanks in advance for any help! Big investment and I'd rather get it right on the first go.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 05:47:42 am
content: I have this scope and double boom arm.Got it from LuckyZoom on Aliexpress.It's the same one that AmScope rebrand and sell.I can answer any questions or take measurements you need.I really like this microscope and stand.I paid USD$550 inc shipping 2 years ago, not including camera (got that later)It's not the simul-focus version. i tired a simul-focus version once and the optical quality seemed poor in comparison. I'm not sure if that was due to the extra splitter in the optics or just a bad unit.You only really want simul-focus if you plan to livestream, or have some other reason to use both at once a lot.This is the same scope and stand as mine except for the camera, This looks to have the 720p camera and i have the 1080p60 HDMI camera.https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Free-Shipping-3-5X-90X-Double-Boon-Stand-Stereo-Zoom-trinocular-Microscope-14MP-camera-144pcs-Led/300856_32662536810.html

author: agehall
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 07:47:48 am
content: I've got an Amscope simulfocal scope on an articulating arm and I'm very happy with it. The only thing I'm disappointed in is the camera. I went with a USB3 camera that AmScope sold in the hopes that USB3 would allow for decent framerate at 1080p but that was not the case at all. I'm going to upgrade to something with a Sony sensor at some point, but right now I don't have enough time tinkering to justify that expense.Think long and hard about if you really need simulfocal - there are two use-cases for it: streaming and teaching. I got it because I like to stream when I work on my projects.You will not be switching back and forth between a screen and the eye-pieces on your own because the FOV in the eye-pieces is soooooo much better that you won't be able to stand looking at the screen if you have the option of looking thru the eye-pieces. Just saying...

author: rbm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 10:17:44 pm
content: If you're not in a hurry and have some patience, you can get a good microscope onhttps://www.gcsurplus.ca/.There are usually microscopes coming up on the "Medical, dental, scientific, lab equipment" category.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 08:47:50 am
content: Wow. Some of the past auctions are almost unbelievable. For example, a Zeiss Stemi SV 8 that sold for CDN$376, with a photo port, a second pair of eye tubes and a massive, motorized stand you could use for stacking.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 11:50:15 am
content: Keep in mind that a really good quality name brand second hand microscope may not be very suitable for electronic work.You would want to know exactly what your getting.i would never just buy it blind and assume its a good brand so it must be better than the china one.There are some key factors about these china microscopes that make them awesome for electronics.- Adjustable zoom level via a knob. (Some microscopes are fixed zoom or have 3 levels or require you to change objevctives)- Ultra wide-field objectives (When you look into the eyepiece you see a wide image. On some microscopes you see mostly black with a small round image in the center. The difference between them is enormous and you definitely want wide-field for electronics.- Camera port- Excellent working distance. Which you can make even better with a barlow lens.- Cheap accessories (if you get a name brand microsocpe you may have for fork out $100+ for parts that fit. Name brand accessories are expensive. China brand accessories are like $10-30)

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 12:21:44 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on March 16, 2019, 11:50:15 amYes, but you often get what you pay for. Lots of people have been disappointed by Chinese photo adapter tubes, particular if they reduce or magnify.Used American Optical, Nikon and Olympus parts are not so expensive. I recently picked up an Olympus 0.5X auxiliary objective, in good shape, for $50, I would have paid $36 if I didn't live in a country with hyperactive customs agents. Zeiss and Leica/Wild parts, however, tend to be expensive (1-3X again) unless you arereallypatient. Had I considered that, I probably would have an Olympus microscope.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 12:33:37 pm
content: Yep, if you can get a name brand microscope (Nikon/Olympus/Zeiss etc) which ticks all the boxes it will definitely be better than the china one.However, will it be so much better to justify the price?That's the real question and the answer will depend on what second hand deal you can find.Having tried a really nice Olympus microscope at a PCB factory i can say that they do look better, but not double the price better.I use my china microscope a lot and it's comfortable to use, has a clear image and i couldn't be happier.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 02:00:32 pm
content: I think it would be fun to compare some images. Perhaps even here if the OP would like that. I could post a test image of a small PCB with 0603 parts.

author: rkagerer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 04:50:00 am
content: Having not used microscopes for electronics before, I'd love to see some images!

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 11:17:21 am
content: Just be aware that a microscope camera image wont tell you how good a microscope is to actually use.It will simply tell you how good the camera port and camera are.The stereo 3D you get when looking into the eyepieces is what makes them useful.

author: rkagerer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2019, 09:11:34 pm
content: Thanks for all the tips here.After a lot of research, I'm considering springing for a Leica S9i on a GRS Acrobat Versa armature. Mainly because:Huge depth of field from the FusionOptics (convenient, and might help mitigate effects of any vibrations carried through mount when doing video)Most sturdy armature I could findLarge Field of View (I think 46mm using 0.5X Barlow and 10x/23 lenses)People rave about the opticsNo-fuss built-in camera with good output options (HDMI, USB, Ethernet)I hear roughly one in a thousand people get messed up by the FusionOptics. Has anyone here used it and can comment?Also if I understand correctly the optical path is permanently split so 50% is always going to the video port. Think that will noticeably impact the renowned image quality? (I think the cheaper trinocs I'm considering work like that anyway).Obviously it's 4x the cost of an Amscope on a flex arm, so grappling with price a little. But I figure I'll keep the thing 30+ years so am open to spending a bit more for a good one. Open to thoughts here, too, if you think I'm overspending too crazily.Also need to confirm I can do the 90-degree swivel thing on the optics carrier when mounted to the Versa arm, since I want the arm to come into my workspace from the side, something like this:Here's a link to theproduct manualon the S9i.

author: KlausF
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 06:01:18 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on March 15, 2019, 05:47:42 amLooks great

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 07:26:23 pm
content: The reason a lot of those brands look the same is that they basically are the same. Anyone can buy their preferred configurations from a manufacturer and slap their own brand on them.www.yydag.com/en/

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 11:19:53 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on March 27, 2019, 07:26:23 pmyep, 100% agree. but they may have different quality ratings.After being assembled they may be tested and graded based on how well the optics ended up aligned inside.So finding the cheapest seller of this microscope is perhaps not the best option.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 01:47:11 am
content: Quote from: Psi on March 27, 2019, 11:19:53 pmThey (which can be you, since the factory itself is competitive at quantity 1, if you're willing to initiate and tolerate the quoting process) might, but have you heard many first-hand reports of such? All indications are the optics are generally fantastic for the price across brands, at least for electronics level magnifications. (Not counting camera port issues, which usually comes down to user error, crappy camera, or the wrong adapters, not the optics.)The real differences tend to be in price, configurations available, delivery speed, shipping, taxes and customer service. Those answers may vary depending on your location.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 02:29:19 pm
content: That Leica S9i looks really good and were I in the market for a new microscope, I would give it very serious consideration. Having fussed a bit adapting cameras to microscopes long after they were designed, I can appreciate the charms of the built-in 10Mbyte camera. That said, if you can accept a little fuss – and it should be fairly little since you are dealing with equipment that is built to standards – you might price out an S9-D, plus a photo tube, a thread adapter and a higher end consumer camera. You can get some really good, used digital cameras for $100-200 if you consider older models.I would also look at a stereo microscope from Meiji Techno. They are less cutting edge than Leica, but also less expensive and more traditional. They are very well made. From all I can tell, Meiji still build and support microscopes they expect you will use for decades (e.g., seehttps://meijitechno.com/warranty/).Either company should give you excellent, immediate and long term support. That is part of what you are paying for. Here a couple links to reviews by some heavy users of their microscopes:.https://www.vendop.com/vendor/leica-microsystems-inc-3/.https://www.vendop.com/vendor/meiji-techno-america/reviews/I think I will call Meiji and ask about an EMZ-8TR system: to see if their customer service is as good as people say it is.

author: rbm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 01:33:33 am
content: Quote from: jfiresto on March 28, 2019, 02:29:19 pmI own a older Meiji EMF-1 microscope and really like it. It's equipped with interchangeable eyepieces, a 1.0X primary objective but no zoom control. Thats OK since I find that the working distance and coverage with 10X eyepieces is perfect for me. I bought it used through Craigslist and it was very cheap; another plus. I'd recommend looking into Meiji.

author: rkagerer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2020, 08:22:57 am
content: @Psi I do have a question: How did you get your camera to mount so close to the microscope top surface?I wound up going with the less expensive OMAX W43DF1-6B3 and it does the job well enough for now. I want to buy this camera for ithttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B015U163T0but from what I can tell the adapters will take up a fair bit of height.The microscope itself has a threaded mount on top. The cap on the mount has male threads that are 27.8mm (outer) diameter. If I unscrew the cap, there's a barrel inside that's roughly 22.55mm inner diameter. The whole barrel and cap mount look like they could be removed by unscrewing a couple of hex screws, but I don't think I'm supposed to do that.The scope came with an attachment that screws onto the mount. The bottom portion of the attachment looks like a focuser; twisting it extends its length. That portion ends in a a female thread. The top portion screws into it, and has male threads that are 24.82mm diameter. The top portion is just a simple barrel, roughly 53mm long, with a 28.43mm outer diameter and 23.2mm inner diameter. There's no lens in either portion of the attachment.The specs show an "Inner Diameter of Photo Tube" dimension of 23.2mm.So it seems to me I'll need a C-Mount Reduction Lends like the AmScope RU050. But putting all that stuff on top is going to really increase the "height" of my scope. I'm wondering if I can find a more compact attachment method that mates the camera directly to the threads on my microscope.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2020, 09:20:14 am
content: Quote from: rkagerer on February 25, 2020, 08:22:57 amOne trick, if you are after a short microscope, is to find or set up an adapter that provides a c-mount for a one-inch sensor camera, then mount on it, a camera with a similarly sized sensor and a short "flange focal distance". These days, that would be a micro four thirds or APS-C camera (the latter giving more vignetting and wasting pixels), or a later Nikon 1-series camera, if you can snatch one from the Nikon enthusiasts. By "direct projection", you eliminate the reduction lens and possible, tall spacers, and get better images.You will need a thread adapter between the camera and c-mount. The diameter of the c-mount, for a few millimeters below the flange (toward the microscope), should not be more than ca. 35 mm. If it is larger, the adapter may not fully screw on and make the camera non-parfocal.Here is what a micro four thirds camera, thread adapter (the thin black ring below it) and one inch c-mount (the next lower, thicker silver ring) look like on a forty year old microscope:Is that short enough for you?

author: rkagerer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2020, 09:59:59 am
content: Amazing! I'll have to read through that a couple times to fully understand and appreciate it. Thanks for the great info and rapid response.