Energy company broke in house after AI senses tamper on smart meter - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 02:57:20 pm
content: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/08/smartmeter-leads-energy-company-to-break-into-widowers-home/QuoteCalling things "AI" when they may not even be is another word I am starting to hate.It's a blooming sensor and alarm and I'd imagine possibly some flow diagram it is set to go by.At least they went through the courts instead of switching him off remotely without a warrant even though they could have sent out an reader or engineer first to check.Don't like that level of intrusion and I'd want one without a comms hub to stop this sort of intrusion but free for them to come in anytime to inspect it and see with their own eyes and common sense whether it had been tampered or not and what I am about to face when they do than someone unexpectedly breaking the door down like I was some criminal and that's why I don't trust them with it.What do you think?*Could the "AI" just be a fancy name for their tamper detection?*Has it gone too far in terms of privacy.*When discovering the correct address should they have sent out say a reader first to read the meter in disguise (to not cause panic to the owner at first) then check and determine whether it had been tampered with or not or whether there was a fault before deciding to take it further?

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 03:10:09 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on January 09, 2025, 02:57:20 pm"In this instance, we made several attempts to arrange an appointment with Mr Knight and met the required three visits before obtaining a warrant, which is always a last resort."And that's in addition to the phone calls, which the homeowner would have them believe he didn't receive a single one of.It sounds to me like he consciously ignored the DNO and then found that they can obtain legal right of entry, if you deliberately mess them around. No sympathy for him.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 03:14:44 pm
content: I recognise that meter... and I happen to know it uses physical tamper switches, and ironically tamper detection isn't even done by the MCU as such. It's done with some good old fashioned glue logic so the case can't be opened if the MCU is sleeping, glitched, in the middle of an upgrade etc. So about as dumb as it can get really.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 04:07:27 pm
content: It's worth noting that E.ON would have a statutory requirement to enter premises in this case, because Ofgem insist that energy providers maintain accurate billing at all times, and would be subject to enforcement action if they do not maintain this. E.ON wouldn't really care either way - they remit x kWh on the network, if the meter says their customer used x/10, they might make a little less profit, but it's not going to affect their operations so much that they care to intervene on an individual basis.Also, smart meters aren't owned by your energy company, but instead one of a number of conglomerates, the largest of which is owned by none other than Warren Buffet's firm Berkshire Hathaway. These are then leased to the likes of E.ON, Octopus and so on. It's anutterly retardedway of doing things, but it's the system we have.And yes, AI in this case is just a stupid buzzword, it should only be used if there is some kind of machine learning involved, and I very much doubt that was the case here.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 05:34:17 am
content: Coincidentally, I found another news story about the use of AI in utility infrastructure. Buzzword or legitimate application?https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20250110_B03/Quote

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 07:38:09 am
content: I don't understand why something as simple as an electricity meter needs "AI". What's wrong with tamper switches?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 07:43:17 am
content: Everything needs AI. How else are we gonna save the planet?

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 08:21:37 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 10, 2025, 07:38:09 amDefinition: AI = anything complicated and high-techy that I don't understand how it works.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 08:41:05 am
content: The definition is also relative: NE555 is AI to an electrician or a beancounter, but not necessarily to an electronics engineer

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 08:47:19 am
content: Quote from: NE666 on January 09, 2025, 03:10:09 pmMost phone calls from unknown numbers are spam these days.And if you give them your landline number and you aren't home when they call (typically: during office hours), tough luck.It's retarded and I have heard of similar cases in Poland too.What happened to good old snail mail? Too expensive, I guessAlso, I hope they can't enter one's property without the police being present...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 09:22:28 am
content: Quote from: magic on January 10, 2025, 08:47:19 amWhat annoys me is companies that won’t leave a voicemail. Like… leave a message saying who called, and to call the number on your invoice to arrange the next steps. (That avoids the issue of phishing.)

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 09:41:01 am
content: Quote from: magic on January 10, 2025, 08:47:19 amIn the UK at least, there are many websites where you can enter numbers to check their 'reputation'. They're usually up to date and provide useful information. Just Googling a number will present them. If a number repeatedly calls me, that's what I do. A number of times I've used them, and found the calling number to be that of a service supplier I use after all. It's only reasonable to assume good intent, and some urgency, and then prove otherwise if not so.Quote from: magic on January 10, 2025, 08:47:19 amThey sent him text msgs too. So he didn't bother to read those either? And make the connection with the many 'unknown' calls?Quote from: magic on January 10, 2025, 08:47:19 amI can't say for certain, but given the lengths the supplier has to go to in order to obtain a warrant (attend a magistrate's court in person and give evidence under oath), I can't imagine that they didn't write to the customer at the supplied address at least once, to demonstrate that all reasonable efforts have been made.TL;DR - He's a cantankerous old git who thought he'd "f about" and then found out.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 09:46:51 am
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on January 10, 2025, 05:34:17 amHmm! I actually got a letter from my water company saying they suspected a leak to my property based on some AI model from the smart water meter data. They were right - tucked away next to the electric meter was an isolation valve which was leaking very slowly and it was only noticeable by a damp patch on the floorboard below, inside the meter cupboard so not an area I had inspected regularly. I fixed the leak, and a few weeks later another letter arrived saying all was well. (Not sure why they couldn't text or email me.) I doubt it was little more than "usage at 5am for 4 consecutive days is odd, let's send a letter", so calling it AI is probably stretching it, but perhaps it justifies the algorithm to everyman. I'm OK with that kind of use of the smart meter tech - the floorboard under the leaking valve was rotting away and I may not have noticed it for several months.

author: 807
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:01:05 am
content: Well someone is obviously telling downright lies here.The energy company says that theydidspeak to Mr Knight over the phone, but Mr Knight says they didn't.The energy company says that they put letters through his door on 2 occasions. Mr Knight says they didn't.The energy company says that they actually spoke to Mr Knight at his property but was refused entry. Mr Knight says they didn't.So...were the phone calls recorded "for training purposes"?Did the energy company guys take a photo of the letters being put into Mr Knight's letterbox?Either of those would prove who is telling the truth.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:14:16 am
content: There's no requirement for the energy company to photograph letters going into Mr Knight's letterbox. If they have proof of postage, courts assume letters are delivered within 3 working days, unless the complainant can demonstrate that there was some reason they were not (postal strike, for example.) It could be argued the courts put too much faith in Royal Mail, but it is the legal standard.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:22:37 am
content: Quotepost takes at least a day to arrive,thats at least an extra day of you paying for dripping water

author: 807
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 01:06:31 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 10, 2025, 11:14:16 amBut the letters weren't sent by Royal Mail, or any other delivery company. They were hand delivered when they got no response after knocking on the door.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2025, 09:23:51 am
content: Quote from: 807 on January 10, 2025, 11:01:05 amFrom mypersonal experiencewith E-On, they are lying, thieving, sacks of shit, so I would tend to believe the householder

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 12:40:32 pm
content: So the way I read it.Eon emailed to say they wanted to check the meter. The emails I see often have tracking data on them so are not to eon.com but some random gibberish type address, then they tell *us* to be careful.They sent an agent around to access the property a few times. These in my experience aren't always eon branded vehicles. I guess that was also monday to Friday 9-5.They text him saying "trust us, we are not a scam, please call this number and give us your details so we can prove you are who you say you are".Now they said they did speak to him to arrange a chance to visit but again this is would guess is mon fri 9 to 5 and would you want to take a day off work just to wait around all day for a 5 min visit or for the company to text you at 3pm to say they will have to visit another day.My energy company is desperate to get me on a smart meter. They often have a pop up when I log in with two options to book an appointment for a meter or enquire about booking a date.

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 12:52:29 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 12, 2025, 12:48:15 pmIt was sufficient to convince a UK court of law and its magistrate to issue a legal right of entry, which they don't do lightly. Maybe it's you that should recalibrate your thought process?

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 01:15:44 pm
content: There's something definitely a bit off with this story as has been reported. According to the BBC version there was also a gas meter incident which is a little bit coincidental don't you think?Quote

author: Sorama
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 01:58:45 pm
content: Quote from: NE666 on January 12, 2025, 12:52:29 pmYou don’t need a court nor a magistrate.Only a bailiff.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 04:36:23 pm
content: Quoteuk law applies here,it wasn't an emergency so they need a warrant of entry issued by a magistrate.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 07:13:09 pm
content: These companies know the dance moves to satisfy the magistrate and often they leave the magistrate in a position where they can't say no to it as they technically have done what is required.Remember it is less than a year since a story broke that they were using these powers of entry to forcibly change users to pre-pay meters. Many of these were because of clerical errors where they claimed a user had a 10k bill etc.https://www.gov.uk/government/news/just-three-energy-suppliers-making-up-over-70-of-all-forced-installation-of-prepayment-meters&https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67910944

author: bte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 08:12:29 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on January 12, 2025, 04:36:23 pmJust out of curiosity: Don't they need to have police with them at the time of entry, even if they have a warrant? What happens if something gets lost or something gets damaged during the entry? How are such claims handled then?Here entering without law enforcement would be grounds for arrest.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 09:01:56 pm
content: Looks like the journos are doing their sensationalism business. But some self-appointed jurors here already judged the utility guilty despite the report about a gas meter at the premises. The possibility of gas malfunction obviously makes the situation much more urgent. The effect from a gas volumetric explosion can be more powerful than that from a bomb dropping. Seen that one time by my own eyes. The rights of one particular individual seems the last thing to care about in a case like that.As for the meter tampering as such, employees are typically lazy and it's not natural for them to over-react. When my utility did install a smart meter, my primary concern was about the load switch inside the meter. I was in the process of re-wiring my apartment with more beefy wires to facilitate up 40 A sustained load current and if the switch is configured for a lower current limit, all my efforts are rendered useless. So I bought a standard IR adapter at aliexpress to read the settings from the meter. First time, I mistakenly entered a wrong password and that resulted in the "unauthorized access" event registered by the meter. The event was sent to all the servers and I can see it in the meter event logs on the related web sites so the utility is well aware of that. It happened in November. Nobody cared so far.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 09:13:23 pm
content: The gas meter was in an externally accessible cabinet. Only the electricity meter was inside the house, so no internal gas meter tampering risk. That has been common in houses here since before the '80s.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 09:40:12 pm
content: Regardless of where the gas meter is, E.on (the energy retailer) have nothing at all to do with the gas supply, which is maintained by a separate company. Cadent in my region. The organisations are different. If a leak had occurred, the network operator would attend an emergency call to isolate the gas and make right the supply, if the leak was on their side of equipment, or provide advice to the homeowner if the leak is in their equipment (in practice, they will often do small, inconsequential repairs for free, but this depends on how nice the attending engineer is.)

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 09:41:37 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on January 12, 2025, 09:13:23 pmBTW here was one case when a fired utility worker became angry and intentionally damaged the gas fittings of the externally accessible pipeline inside the apartment building. That resulted in the explosion and the part of the building collapsed. The construction code was subsequently changed so for a new building, there must be no externally accessible gas pipeline.

author: clarewilliams
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 09:08:43 pm
content: That's only the beginning