is it possible to have a New Type of Automated Electric Guitar - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 06:19:30 am
content: the Automatic Electric Guitarif you're interested in DIY analog music synthesizers & electric guitars?this is about amicrocontroller or self playing electric guitar! vs the manual played electric guitar we are all familiar with seeing.this discussion is about the hardware not the software. getting that organic sound of tuned string steel wires.vs any thing that digital audio workstation software can emulate.the idea came about when I was looking at analog audio delay line technology as part of a analog music synthesizer.what if an electric guitar was used as a analog audio delay line or spring reverb?is it possible to drive a tuned string steel guitar wire? as an input. & then use the electric guitar pickup as the output.the idea is to use atransformer "E"set above the tuned steel wire. at with a winding of 8 ohms driven by a 3 or 5 watt audio amp.to emulate plucking or strumming of the tuned string steel wire. only one channel shown here.see the illustration of the hypothetical automatic electric guitar shown here-an automatic electric guitar can in theory, emulate a violin or hurdy gurdy. as its plucking or strumming inputcan be a audio frequency tone not just a pulse or plucking of the steel string by the varying magnetic flux of the drive input.any audio frequency or pulse or plucking can be sent in to the drive. that no human musician can do plucking at this speed!so this is a new type ofmusical instrumentIMO.note-that I am not the classic definition of a musician or a guitar player.I do not own a guitar but I do have an interest in making music by whatever means necessary. as in by any technology,programming a piano roll one bit at a timeso before running out and buying a cheap electric guitar for the components or some no-name DIY electric guitar kit.so before spending time and money on this oddball idea.so I have posted this so musicians that do electronics, can take a look at the concept of the automatic electric guitar.here it is see- only one channel shown here. if you can make this a work as a musical instrument, than you get to keep the $the key to the design is the primary drive coils & the finger shuttle that emulate the hands of a human musician.also if the finger shuttle has a movable fret on the fingerboard with the finger hammer then steel guitar glissando sweeps can be made.the rest of the design is your familiar electronics & software that will be needed to control a bit of kit like this. see the illustration.control inputs A B C & D can be any micro or ...........have fun with this one.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 07:07:45 pm
content: This one is quite recent:andMaybe not the answer you expected, but clever nonetheless.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 11:39:57 pm
content: interesting how he uses pin ball technology to run the machine in the video.back when I seen the 1st machine Wintergatan had made , I was somewhat skeptical that it wood! yes is made of bits of wood and wirethat it is going to be a nightmare just keeping it in tune, nevermind stopping it falling apart on tour. but I stand correctedWintergatan has re-made his pin ballmachine to be somewhat more robust.so very Edward Scissorhandslike to know how to get that laser cut metal parts made to order. that is what I need.I do note, how the standard configuration of the Wintergatan electric guitar body neck and head limit or make more complicatedthe actuator design. the musical instrument is a compromise between two competing ideas ,I will just add a bit about testing my automatic electric guitar drive transducer.if anyone is interested in my design.I spent the day researching this stuff so I might as well post all the text on this here!testing a DIY input drive transducer on any electric guitarwithout damaging or dismantling the musical instrument,for a proof of concept, will it work? how much input power do you need?how much magnetic flux bleed over is there to the guitar pickup coils?vs magnetic flux from the guitar string.reducing direct inductive coupling in-between the input drive transducer we may be adding for testing.and the guitar own pickup coils, for the it be successful the guitar string signal must be higher then the drive transducer.at the guitar pickup coils, as its the guitar string signal output we are seeking here , not the input drive.so its input drive to guitar string then guitar string back to guitar pickup coils.the goal here is to use the timbre of the guitar string to add an all new sound to the existing electric guitarso any direct inductive coupling in-between the input drive transducer and the guitar pickup coils is to be avoided.try testing with a magnet added to the input drive transducer. or try using a high impedance drive coil.what I was seeking was a magnetic grabbing hand that would instantly pulse or pluck the guitar string then instantly let go!so the guitar string is free to resonate. to emulate a violin or hurdy gurdy a tone maybe sent the input drive transducer.this would emulate a violin bow or hurdy gurdy wheel on the guitar string. use a music synthesizer make the best wave formfor the input.one thing to consider with an automatic or self playing electric guitar design, is the string spacing is not limited by human fingers,string spacing can now accommodate the drive transducers and the finger & fret shuttles.so same type of slide bar or rod can be between the strings.even allowing for a toothed belt to move the finger fret shuttles.one example of mounting a shuttle on twin rods is inside CD / DVD players.DIY electric steel guitar is a good place to start, as the same wooden base constructionwould be used in any automatic or self playing electric guitar.however a lot more space under the guitar strings is needed to accommodate the fret shuttles, one every channel or string.if play flexibility is your end goal. as fixed position finger hammers make the musical instrument play stiff and mechanical.see how this poor sounding musical instrument is so complex. lots of moving parts. in the Guitar-robot gv7 video.as the guitar design is just an adapter that sits on a standard guitar made for human hands.IMO let the driving software do as much of the complex stuff as possible.and let the hardware be as simple, flexible and reliable as possible.Guitar-robot gv7 this set up is using hard mechanical plucking that lacks the softness & flexibilityof any inductive coupling that we are seeking .that's it

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 03:43:35 am
content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBow

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 08:00:35 pm
content: ah theEBow ........US Patent 4,075,921and yt has a teardown of this,ok a lot less power is needed. Wow, piece of cake.no more exponentiation needed,microcontrollers are not my strong point. so it looks like an arduino project idea...so when do I start.world is a bit crazy at the moment, so shopping n shipping is a bit slow. wouldn't you know.so when I get round to building a project is when I have all the parts do it& remember to post a video of it playing.feel free to add anything your working on, EBow or steel string instrument related here.thank you for the feedback.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 08:38:39 pm
content: Was about to mention the ebow.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 10:04:16 pm
content: You could also pulse the electromagnet to simulate plucking the strings rather than strumming them. But it would still have the same issue as the E-Bow in that it's not fully automatic by controlling tuning via the frets. For that you would either need more powerful magnets or something mechanical.You could also have self reverb by setting up a decaying feedback loop between the drivers and pickups.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 04:25:18 am
content: ask an odd questionprofessional microphones have moved on to 3 Pin cannon type connectors with phantom power supply's & inbuilt balanced line preampsbut some how today's electric guitar is still using 6mm phone type jacks from the 1900shigh impedance audio with no preamp on the pickups.Buzzzzzzzzzzzz!why? its this a stupid question or off topic?

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 05:17:01 am
content: Quote from: jonovid on June 09, 2020, 04:25:18 amYou will often find bass guitars with active pickups (preamps) and a low-Z output. It's usually not balanced, but occasionally one does have a balanced XLR jack. But bass is a different animal. So are bassists.An electric guitar player plays the amp as much as they play the guitar. The sound is partly shaped by the cable capacitance, and by the loading of the pickups by the volume / tone pot settings and cable characteristics. Then there is the amplifier preamp distortion characteristics and of course the output stage distortion. Putting a preamp on the guitar changes some of this dynamic.Of course in the past several decades many guitar players been dialing in their tone with amplifier emulator boxes and of course the more traditional stomp-boxes so some of the cable interaction effects have been diminished. But guitarists are generally a conservative lot.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 09:35:29 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on June 09, 2020, 04:25:18 amGuitars and basses moved into mass production over the past few decades, but with that comes some caveats.On low end instruments, the general construction of the wood and hardware is quite impressive for the prices, but the electronics are insanely cheap. Seriously they must have a budget of $1.50 for the electronics. Cheap fender style output jacks, a few carbon pots and a polyester cap or two.Active preamps are standard on mid range and up instruments, but should still be considered high impedance generally. Most can't drive a 10k input impedance adequately without noticeable bass rolloff.XLR is a good alternative to 1/4 jacks. Good quality 1/4 jacks are quite robust, but most on the market are cheap and break at the tip and base of the shaft. XLR moves the mechanical stress to its chassis and takes it off the electrical connections.However the cost of a quality XLR panel mount connector (a curved one at that) and the added protection needed on the instrument to ensure 48V isn't applied to the circuitry makes it a niche application. Some custom instruments use them.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2020, 07:11:40 pm
content: Auto Guitar Project fret shuttle design more complicated than anticipatedthe automatic guitar got a re-designthis project is some what more complicated than anticipatedspeed and accuracy needed in the fret shuttle's of this musical instrument require an odd direct drive DC motorsand leadscrews, as most stepper motors maybe to slow requiring more complexity of design.guitar string spacing will need to be double that of a conventional electric guitar. to accommodate the fret shuttle unitswith their fret hammer solenoid coils & cable whipssolenoid coil dampers will be needed to help note transition as the fret solenoids will act as hammers on the strings.a push up may work better, as this design push's the fret shuttle down on the fretboard meanwhile have a solenoid push up the string.so the string is held in contact with the fretboard through the fret shuttle solenoid.had to reorder, get large sized solenoids for the fret hammers as the gap is 4mm plus push up of the guitar stringas 1st set of solenoids was too small to do the job also stepper motors are not the best for the job. too slow

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2020, 09:34:38 pm
content: Enjoy...

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2021, 06:55:57 am
content: it's been two years and this AutoGuitar project is proving to be more complicated than ever first anticipated.this is getting to be an expensive musical instrument to construct.here is a rundown of the design plan. changes are made as I go. may have bitten off more than I can chew.but as I now have must of the core components needed, its too late to turn back now. see image.on the left is the timber stained baseplate of the musical instrument. this is a timber door lintel with 4 rubber door stops as feet.at the top of the image is parts of a electric guitar kit so I could research into how electric guitar transducers work.on the right of the image is the 6 x 12vlot DC motors and 6x H bridge motor units to run them .the design calls for many tailor-made components.including 12 inductive bespoke transducers or individual hand wound guitar pickups with magnets.6 are for sound pickup and the other 6 are input drivers. I am planning for 8 to 16 ohm low impedance bespoke transducersas low impedance hand wound coils are less troublesome to fabricate then high impedance designs.so 3 x LM1897 low noise stereo tape head preamplifiers can be used. and 3 x stereo 2 or 3 watt audio power amplifiers to drive or pluck the guitar strings.the idea is to have this open source musical instrument interface with analog music synthesizer 10 volt output triggers and or arduino midi sequencer.by its two input x6 the Note Hz per channel and drive/pluck strum or bow. to sound it. plus damperthe autoguitar fretboard is flat and over it is 6 x 5mm x 400mm ball screws drivan by 6 DC motors that are way overpowered & oversizedbecause the 5mm motor axle diameter most be the same as the 5mm x 400mm ball screws. to avoid complicated machining.so the smallest diameter ball screw that is a full 400mm in length is 5mm. the motor axle must be 5mm also. at a 1 to 1 coupling.another requirement for the ball screws, is the scroll speed. to find notes on the fretboard between pluck or strum inputs.this musical instrument has a wide guitar string spaceing of 20mm string to string and 35mm up off the fretless-fretboard the timber stained baseplate.inbetween the fretboard and the guitar strings are the 6 x solenoid actuator shuttle hammer assemblys that ride the 400mm long ball screws.up and down the fretboard on teflon skids under the guitar strings. so the shuttle hammer pushs up on the guitar string and down on the fretboard.but not on the ball screw axles inbetween. this requires complicated design work for the shuttle hammer assemblysincluding the cable tracks or cable whips one per channel.that are long springy loops that set up vertical 300mm into the air in-between the guitar strings per channel and loop solenoid wires back to the body of the instrument.also every DC motor has its own optical interrupter on its own axle and re-set switch so the arduino or micro knows where it's at .the only original guitar components are the electric guitar strings or wire resonators and the guitar machine heads or tuning pegs. at the nut end.the baseplate of the musical instrument is a timber door lintel with 4 rubber door stops as feet. as most rubber feet are too small for this.AutoGuitar will sit up 3cm on fat rubber feet and will we be about 1 meter in length, about 25cm of width an about 30cm in height the top of the cable whips.another requirement for the timber baseplate is it must be solid timber as the guitar strings sit up 25mm high off the fretboard so strain rate is increasedon the body of the instrument. from both the bridge and the nut ends.research for this musical instrument took me into electric guitar design going back to the 1950sand into 1970s vinyl record cartridges also magnetic tape playback head design.as AutoGuitar is an open source musical instrument. you may have a better design, or tested a better design.at the time I started research into this in 2018 most automated guitars were just robotics clamped on to a standard musical instrument.with problems of guitar string spaceing been way too narrow for most solenoid actuators and the need to push down on the fretboard form above.in addition to this a standard stringed musical instrument is designed for human hands to hold not electronic control systems.automated woodwind instruments is a done thing thanks to 200 yrs of pipe organ technology development IMOso I gave woodwind a miss. but I did look into automating bagpipes. before moving to magnetic guitar technology, been way more versatile.the base electric guitar design is more the 50 yrs old. but its the rich harmonics and overtones that make the instrument what it is.that's all for now!

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2021, 08:07:59 am
content: component fabrication takes a lot of timemotor flanges and the two ends Bridge and Nut saddle flanges. see image.6 ball screw linear actuators run under the 6 wires. also called the Guitar Strings.once the auto-guitar base is completed then comes the fabrication of the 12 transducersthis where I need to get into the electronics part of the project. by mid 2022

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2021, 09:19:39 am
content: Quote from: tpowell1830 on September 29, 2020, 09:34:38 pm50 years ago.edit: fixed link

author: Twoflower
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2021, 09:33:55 am
content: Another alternative how to play a bass guitar:

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2021, 09:38:30 am
content: Quote from: Twoflower on October 31, 2021, 09:33:55 amNear the end of the clip when the robot raised it arm, I thought it was going to give the horns.\m/

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2021, 01:49:03 am
content: this is the NUT end of the musical instrument with the 6 fret drive motors.may have overengineerd the size of this sub assembly unit.the auto-guitar scale length is 628mm with 6 nickel alloy wiresthat rap a dog leg around the sides of the unit. plastic idler wheels will be replaced with brass idlers . supply chain delays.also made some bad assumptions & 525mm error in the size of the plan, I had a ukulele scale length.so with the scale length at the full 628mm the 3 end drive motors hang outside the base of the musical instrument.rigidity of the musical instrument body is key good note sustain, so must be built like a brick dunny so a fifth bolt will be set in the middle of the NUT L-shaped 4mm aluminumalso see the end bearings for the 6 ball screw assemblys -not shown here.flexible couplings are used connecting any two of the 5mm axle bearings to a third, as I do not have alignment needed to provet axle wobbling.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2021, 02:13:52 am
content: I've seen a number of those projects.I get the interest factor. Must be pretty interesting to work on.What eludes me, though, is the purpose. There is no exception from everything I've heard: all those projects, in the end, sound absolutely TERRIBLE. While having required a LOT of time. So, however great this all is from an engineering POV, in the end this is wasted time. Well IMO anyway. Sorry if I don't get it.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2021, 02:25:43 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 19, 2021, 02:13:52 amI have stated work on this musical instrument in 2018 so spent $ on the parts so may as well complete the project.at least get one or two of the six channels working with an arduino . I would like to hear the sound of an all electric wheeless hordy gordyin 2018 I seen an opportunity. a gap in the automated musical instrument design space. so why not give it a go . just for fun . was before 2020 BS!to produce something people would use. in conjunction with say analog music synthesizers. an analog spring reverb that is tuned to a note or Hz.should have started by testing the transducer designs- first. with hindsight.I amconfident that the core design of this automated stringed musical instrumentwill work.driving and monitoring tuned nickel alloy wires . the transducer designs. nobody is doing this type of musical instrument from scratch.driving stringwireswith analog audio inputs . not piano hammers or guitar pick. so the wide string spacing.goals1music or sound I am seekingmiddle eastern music - arabian harp music - hordy gordy - bagpipe type soundswith granular synthesis from magnetic plucking or bowing at Hz speed and accuracy beyond what is possible with human hands.while maintaining the complex timbre of the true stringed sound. unlike pe-set samples from some digital audio workstations.2 construct a greatly improved example of an automated or micro-controlled musical instrument. avoiding the mistakes of other more makeshift designs.see YT videos of makeshift robot guitars that fail.proof of concept. produce working prototype of this greatly improved musical instrument.3 produce anopen source documentfrom the fully working prototype of this musical instrument.post here! for any one to produce their own. avoiding expensive components that have no improvement on the design.4 explain the steps involved in the development of this design and how its differs from hand operated musical instruments.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 11:03:41 am
content: Bridge end sub-assembly is bolted in-place to the base.plan a 628mm scale length with a string spacing of 32mm x6

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 11:26:17 am
content: Keep the updates coming!

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 11:34:52 am
content: its not very impressive but.my experiments with prewound coils for my transducer pickupsstill on the lookout for higher impedance 2k or 4k inductor coils for my pickups ,no one is making higher impedance coils 220 volt un-potted and or cheap.as you can see lots of low impedance coils that will work as drivers.but pickups may need to be higher impedance.this my box of surplus chinese solenoids from aliexpress.blood pressure machine air bleed solenoid.watch component solenoidI had forgotten the size. a quartz watch is not a quartz clock mechanism.floating magnet toy solenoidsunknown surplus 24 vlot dc pcb solenoids

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2022, 11:34:40 am
content: Interesting video here too...

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 04:31:12 am
content: my apology to anyone anticipating this project completion.I was way too ambitious taking on this complex project.the need for a midi matrix switcher software delay line, to fix the problem of electro-mechanical mechanism delays before any note can be played.midi is for controlling keyboards, digital pianos but notas a way to control a 6 stringed musical instrument from a 48 note midi output. play from a midi file.this project requires very complex software architecture to work.a lot more then just modified player piano software running on an Arduino.something I was unaware of at the time of starting this project in 2017software engineering is not my forte!is it possible? yes. but it is as complex as any 3D printer or drone project.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 06:09:16 am
content: Why not have a self-eating pie, or a self-kissing wife. All this self-X garbage is a modern fad, people ENJOY DOING THINGS, or human life would be pointless without pleasure.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 07:41:08 pm
content: Quote from: eti on July 05, 2022, 06:09:16 amYes. That was the before world.

author: Coordonnée_chromatique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 08:23:44 pm
content: Quote from: eti on July 05, 2022, 06:09:16 amYes, a self made, self-eating cake is better !