ubuntu snobbery - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 04:55:20 pm
content: Well decided to take another look at Ubuntu again. I tried it out on my laptop with dual boot.Can anyone offer a more sensible user friendly flavour of linux that does not have the snobbery but hopefully runs programs like KiCADWell I'm dumbstruck - firstly by the poor performance (due to it completely ignoring the hardware and treating everything as just some bog standard bit of legacy kit if it see's it at all) and still unnecessary complication of the user interface along with deliberate snobby differences to windows (like putting the close, minimize and maximize buttons on the opposite side even though earlier they were on the right like windows and not the left along with the loss of a proper program menu list) along with some similarities despite them claiming snobbily that linux is not windows like copy, paste and cut keyboard shortcuts being the same along with shift+delete deleting a file bypassing the rubbish bin.despite all the pitch lines about how ubuntu runs on millions of devices all over the world and is great for beginners for custom use or indeed simple setting up of the pc's hardware you apparently need to have full command of the terminal - bit of a contradiction there !

author: shebu18
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 05:17:12 pm
content: I don't recommend the new versions of ubuntu. The best would be 10.04 or 9.04 in the 32bit configuration. Ok, the new sidebar would be nice but the system gets instable.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 05:18:36 pm
content: Ubuntu's company, Canonical, recently made a few very unfortunate decisions when it comes to the Desktop, pissing off a lot of Ubuntu users.Alternatives are(a) Going back to Ubuntu 10.4 LTE and if necessary applying the fix to change the window icons back to were they belong (I don't remember if Canonical screwed them up in 10.4 LTE already or only later).(b) Moving to Mint Linux, current release is Mint 12.Regarding hardware support, Ubuntu is one of the Linux versions that probably supports the most hardware out of the box, including special performance-enhancement drivers for e.g. the graphics card. However, there are still some black spots that every Linux suffers from, not only Ubuntu. In my experience, wireless, multimedia (audio, video), and a lot of laptop-specific hardware is the most problematic. If you happen to have such hardware you are screwed with whatever Linux distribution you use.In some rare cases you can find some driver source code somewhere on the net. But getting such random driver source code running is a gamble these days. One of the reasons Linux distributions got so popular is because people are pissed of having to build drivers and applying magic to get it running.

author: oliver602
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 05:31:12 pm
content: All desktop environments seam to be moving away from the traditional old windows like interface, ie Gnome 3, Ubuntu's Unity, Mac OS X and the new Windows 8 tile interface. The program menus in Ubuntu are at the top of the screen like Mac OS X when the window you are interested in is in the foreground. If your having problems with video performance, make sure you have installed the proprietary graphics drivers for your card if it's an Nvidia. There is a utility for doing that in the control panel somewhere. Performance issues may be related to obscure hardware(proprietary, not reverse engineered, no support from manufacturer for Linux). I always check linux support for hardware before buying now, saves lots of hassel. Alternative desktop environments like KDE and XFCE are also available.Sorry I can't offer advice on an alternative distribution, I've been fairly happy with Ubuntu and I'm not good with the command line. I'll leave that question to someone else.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 05:36:11 pm
content: I posted a thread on the ubuntu forum, it was quite blunt but was open minded and meant to provide a new commers view on the claims they make, it was closed even though a dialogue of help had started. So I think I got the message.Someone did suggest Mint, I'm looking into it at the moment

author: oliver602
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 05:43:24 pm
content: Have you looked athttp://distrowatch.com/? If you have some time you can check out the top distro sites listed and download Live CD's(if available) to try out and find one you like before installing.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 05:45:30 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 25, 2011, 04:55:20 pmMost of the other popular flavors like Fedora and Arch are definitely less user friendly in my opinion. Linux Mint, as suggested by BoredAtWork, might be worth a look.Quote from: Simon on December 25, 2011, 04:55:20 pmYou're unlikely to get much better hardware support in other distributions unless it happens to be supported by a slightly newer version of whatever software is responsible (eg. kernel or X). If it's graphics hardware, there's an option in Ubuntu to install proprietary AMD/nVidia drivers with just a few clicks from the system settings -> hardware -> additional drivers dialog.Quote from: Simon on December 25, 2011, 04:55:20 pmSo copying Windows is correct but copying Mac OS is snobbery? If you want a Windows clone, just use Windows.Quote from: Simon on December 25, 2011, 04:55:20 pmMost of these shortcuts pre-date Windows. I believe the ctrl+C/V/X/Z shortcuts came from the original Macintosh (maybe even earlier) and the ctrl/shift+ins/del stuff came from some IBM standard in the DOS days.Quote from: Simon on December 25, 2011, 04:55:20 pmPosting rants without useful details is usually a good way to get problems solved.Quote from: BoredAtWork on December 25, 2011, 05:18:36 pmPutting the controls back in the right corner can be fixed in gconf. Not exactly user-friendly, but better than the Windows registry that Windows often requires you to edit. I don't really mind them being in the other corner, at least since they just copied the Mac order instead of the first iteration which was minimize-maximize-close.Quote from: BoredAtWork on December 25, 2011, 05:18:36 pmIf the driver is not in the most recent distributions, you're usually screwed in my experience. Unless support was just added in the next kernel release. Third party drivers that are not included in the kernel are often unmaintained, incomplete or unstable. Otherwise they would have been included.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 05:47:35 pm
content: Quote from: oliver602 on December 25, 2011, 05:31:12 pmyou mean the menu's that provide a lot of stuff that is less useful to me if I can't even find what I have installed andthey vary according to the theme, when I choose hi contrast theme I lost the power menu and to shut down I had to search for it I mean WTF ? and they like to remind me that linux is not windows, well buggy programmers are programmers by the looks of it

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 05:54:19 pm
content: Quote from: alm on December 25, 2011, 05:45:30 pmHow many people switch from mac to linux ? I thought later versions of mac were based on linux so no surprise there, as I said I am sure previous versions of ubuntu had the close, mi and max buttons to the right !

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 06:00:33 pm
content: Simon, you wan;t just another OS or you want to dive in GNU/Linux? Ubuntu is ok if you wan;t something that just does the job. Try not to think the Windows way though.I would recommend Slackware, Debian, ArchLinux if you want to really know GNU/Linux and you are a beginner. I really don't believe that Ubuntu is suitable for beginners. It somehow tricks the user to believe that GNU/Linux is something different that it really is.I am using GNU/Linux for more than 10 years.Also have a look atLinux != Windows.Alexander.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 06:07:49 pm
content: what annoyed me most was the sheer snobbery and contradictions. an OS for the beginner, you need need to know all the terminal commands and no I could not work out how to install propriety drivers, the window for it was as blank as the look on my face.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 06:11:37 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on December 25, 2011, 06:00:33 pmI just want a reliable and usable OS, if ReactOS was mature enough I'd use that

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 06:20:48 pm
content: If you know your GNU/Linux, Ubuntu is a very easy and a very good OS/tool.For me GNU/Linux made everything easy as an engineer. Skyrocketed my productivity (when using a computer). Don;t know why but everything is clear for me. Everything makes sense when using GNU/Linux. When I was using windows years ago I was feeling something was wrong.Alexander.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 06:40:41 pm
content: Simon:My experience with trying to move to Linux was the same as you. I tried on the more bleeding edge Fedora. The paradigm shift in thinking wasn't that hard. What was hard for me was the scattered approach to many things. I was able to get some of what I wanted working and then the next software package might install could bring the whole pile of cards crashing down when it broke some dependency. So I was always left with a system that would not do what I wanted unless I was willing to write and compile my own software and spend hours chasing down dependencies. In the end I came to the conclusion that I was spending more time trying to get my computer to do what I wanted than I was actually doing things with my computer.When I asked for help there some people who were very helpful but the help was ultimately fruitless for the above reasons. The vast majority of the "help" was snobbery and elitism. In the end I decided to stop making Linux run my main use for a computer and went back to Windows. I sincerely wanted to make Linux work as an overall desktop solution for me but it was not possible. One thing that drove me crazy was the insistence on cryptic folder names. Now let me see, was that usr/etc/sbin or was it etc/bin/sbin/usr or was it......If you have one or two dedicated uses for Linux in a desktop environment, then it works. If you want a good server platform it is hard to beat Linux. If you want to use your computer in an everyday multi-use don't worry about the next installation of software disabling some other crucial piece of software (not that Windows doesn't break), then forget Linux. As a dual boot for one or two program thing then it all depends on how much time you have to waste getting it working the way you want.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 06:48:51 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on December 25, 2011, 06:40:41 pmI can certainly identify with that in my recent experience

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 07:02:51 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 25, 2011, 05:54:19 pmNo. Later versions (10.0 and up) are based on BSD Unix. Linux is yet another branch off the Unix tree. The User Interfaces are completely unrelated as the OSX one is based on a hybrid Mac OS 9 and Nextstep and Linux is all over the shop.The directory names are a legacy of the Unix roots. OSX does a better job of hiding these things than does Linux. I'm not a huge fan of Linux for the desktop, support being one of the issues, as you have found out. That is not to say the there are Windows and certainly Mac users that are not snobby but there seem to be fewer, particularly in the Windows world.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 07:28:26 pm
content: I use Gentoo, but that's really for advanced users.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 07:54:05 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 25, 2011, 05:36:11 pmIn other words, you left them a steaming pile of turd in their forum and expected them to taste it with a spoon. And you are surprised they didn't want to do it?I mean, the fact is that Linux, in hundreds of different incarnations, works well for millions of people. Why do you think you could convince millions of people that it doesn't, just because you don't like it? It is not like the Linux world is waiting for some elucidation.Sure, some distributions do make terrible decisions, like Canonical with the latest Ubuntu changes. But do you think you are the first one pointing that out? It has been discussed in the Ubuntu communities ad nausea. People are beyond discussion for some time now, they vote with their feet, making Mint the new rock star of Linux distributions, surpassing Ubuntu.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 08:17:44 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on December 25, 2011, 07:54:05 pmAs you say millions are happy withlinuxI am refering to my recent experience with ubuntu which I doubt has millions of followers. This is not a debate for or against linux it is actually a debate about support for ubuntu and it usability, don't derail in another direction. I am afraid that I no nothing of what canonical did neither do I care, my concern is that the system is usable, lives up to it's mission statement (easy to use ideal for a beginner) and has support, not a bunch of nerds that want to keep things obscure because it makes them feel specialI did explain that I was not trying to just dis ubuntu but felt that I could offer a willing newcomers perspective and help them understand what it is like for one who is not a linux nerd trying to enter their graces world. There was no need to lock the thread without explanation, sounds like someones ego was damaged

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 08:37:59 pm
content: One other issue with GNU/Linux is the incomplete documentation and the scattered information. Some years ago you could solve every problem with a "smart" Google search. Now (Ubuntu helped) it's really difficult for a new user to seek and find answers in this mess of information. Advanced and old users is mole likely tired to say the same things again and again (of course there are 1337 and sophomoric users that make thing even harder). Mainly thing you can easily find by reading the man page e.g. I started with GNU/Linux when internet was a luxury. I was buying books at the time, no other info to use.Alexander.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 08:44:16 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on December 25, 2011, 08:37:59 pmyea documentation was a bit patchy and there are pages and pages of unofficial info full of links so it just never ends

author: steff
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 08:58:27 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 25, 2011, 04:55:20 pmMainline Ubuntu is currently going through contortions to try to make an interface that goes beyond the typical Windows-clone file manager and start menu, and as you've noticed not currently doing very tidy job.That said, the core of Ubuntu is pretty much Debian with more up-to-date packages and usually does amongst the best jobs of hardware detection of all Linux distributions. I'd recommend Xubuntu (Ubuntu with XFCE replacing the standard interface) or Lubuntu (ditto but with LXDE). You'll find them more minimal and less tiresomely experimental.Disclaimer: I'm a long-time Linux and FreeBSD user going back to Slackware 3 with kernel 1.2, so I'm very happy with the terminal. In my opinion if you want a UNIX-type OS that "Just Workstm" what you're after is a Mac. Much of this is because a lot of modern hardware refuses to work without random bits of binary firmware and driver support which can't be GPLed (and thus included in Linux distros by default). Ubuntu isn't perfect, but it's a pretty good compromise - it'll happy eg configure a random PAYG 3G stick out of the box.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 09:26:39 pm
content: The current ubuntu user interface is crap, it is designed to be just different for the sake of it and this sacrifices practicality. I don't care what OS a principle comes from, if it works then use it for christs sake !The forum users who "dealt with me" acted like having a program menu is backward and heresy. Well sorry for upsetting some touchy people, I should have bowed down to their idea that just to be different from windows it is a great idea to go looking for your apps like a lost data file. and if your going to put all the programs in a folder call it something logical so that you know what it is, I can crawl my way all over windows not because I was taguht but guess what ? the windows files are in a foldercalled surprise surprise: windows, and the programs are put in this really obscure folder called "programs", and they even kept 32 and 64 bit programs seperate so I can actually identify them without having to look more information up. (oh and app, that is not so original a name that was stolen from macs and the smartphone world, might as well keep calling them programs like the rest of the normal world does).I'm not saying that things should be like windows, just laid out logically so that they are intuitive

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 09:33:04 pm
content: oh and who came up with libreoffice ? built to work with the open odf format. err I thought that odf was the openoffice format that works across platforms, or is that the problem, is that why ubuntu does not come preloaded with openoffice but libreoffice ? just to make sure it distinguishes itself from windows...... and further complicates the transition

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 10:21:14 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on December 25, 2011, 06:40:41 pmGuess it's calledbleedingedge for a reason...Quote from: Lightages on December 25, 2011, 06:40:41 pmIn my experience these issues are rare as long as you install software from the stock repositories. Once you start adding third-party repositories or install software from other sources, dependency issues can crop up. The number of available packages in Fedora is significantly lower than Debian and its derivatives (eg. Ubuntu. Mint), so finding software that's not available in the repositories is somewhat more likely.On properly maintained Linux systems, new software breaking existing software is very rare. Ever wonder why Windows admins insist on one dedicated server per application and love virtualizing dozens of almost idle Windows server in one box, but why *nix admins don't mind having multiple apps on one server?Quote from: Simon on December 25, 2011, 09:33:04 pmPlease keep ranting without paying attention to facts, it's entertaining! OpenOffice.org was owned by Sun, and often refused to fix long-standing bugs. When Oracle bought Sun an essentially discontinued OpenOffice.org development, a bunch of developers forked OpenOffice.org and called it LibreOffice. They immediately started to fix some long-standing bugs and have now become the most active OpenOffice.org branch. The reason that they call it LibreOffice is because Oracle owns the OpenOffice trademark, so they couldn't legally call it OpenOffice. If you use OpenOffice.org on Windows, I would also suggest moving to LibreOffice. Nothing to do with distinguishing itself from Windows, and I don't see how a different splash screen complicates the transition.

author: steff
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 10:24:53 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 25, 2011, 09:33:04 pmThe OpenOffice/LibreOffice thing is a result of Oracle taking over Sun (who developed OOffice) and being their usual charming selves with the developer community. The inevitable result (for OpenOffice and a few other projects, in fact) was a fork of the codebase under a new name. Not Ubuntu's fault, to be fair to them. More Oracle being constitutionally hostile to the way Open Source software is developed.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 10:27:26 pm
content: Quote from: steff on December 25, 2011, 10:24:53 pmwell I stand corrected on that one then, if it's available for windows I'll give it a go,

author: kaptain_zero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 10:27:46 pm
content: Simon,One of the great new things about linux is that many of the distributions are available as a Live-CD or Live-DVD. This way you can take them for a spin and see how they work and if you can get the software you need etc.I have been using PClinuxOS for a good number of years now and am quite satisfied with it. The forum is pretty good, minimal snobbery etc. and if you take the time to do some searching before asking basic questions, you can generally get help pretty quick.Texstar of former Mandriva (Mandrake) fame created the PClos fork from Mandrake/Mandriva and forges ahead with a very solid distro. It is available in 32bit with 64bit only as a development release. I have no hesitations of recommending the 32 bit version... much more software is available and runs on the 32 bit version. There is a PAE kernel by default in the last version so if you have more than 4gigs of ram, it's still recognized and used by the system. I'm running both versions here.... the 64 bit is pretty solid but it's not final and I would suggest sticking with the 32 bit until 64 bit final is released and only if the programs you need are available in 64 bit versions and I know some packages are not behaving when Tex compiles them for 64 bit so 32 is the safe bet. PClos is a rolling release as are some other distros, which simply means that as long as you keep the software up to date, there is no need to install a new version when it is made available as you have it already through the updates. On a rare occasion such as when KDE made a major shift from KDE 3.x to 4.x, it was necessary to re-install PClos as the configuration files were not compatible at all. However, it was not much of a chore to copy ones personal files over to the new install and so even then it's not a major pain like it is with Windows.I go on a regular jaunt looking for new distros..... a couple of rewritable disks make it easy and cheap to test new distros, an old smaller hard disk on my computer allows me to install it on it's own disk, far and away from my mission critical installs so that if something does go wrong, I don't bung up my real OS's. I run an old copy of XP in a Virtualbox session for those rare occasions when I might need a windows only program.... in 32 bit PClos I can also use many of them under wine but wine is not yet available for 64 bit so I use Vbox instead.On the pclinuxos homepage you'll find links to various flavors of the distro with different desktops, including KDE (I suggest this one), LXDE, XFCE, Openbox and the Fullmonty version..... Gnome (as used in Ubuntu) is not playing well..... but the same occured when KDE 4.x came out.... I would expect Gnome to flesh out as time goes by and become better but there is a certain attitude amongst the developers that seems to irk people... I've never like Gnome myself so I've not really bothered with it... either old version or new. KDE 4 is a bit heavy but works well on my middle of road machine... LXDE is a bit lighter as is XFCE but I'm comfortable with KDE and tend to stick with it.Honestly, take advantage of the LiveCD's out there... take different flavors for a spin and pick one where everything on your computer works (one of the things that drew me to PClos... no fixing things, just to get something to work right) and where it seems you can figure out how to tweak things to your liking without too much fuss. Once you are familiar with it, the others will make more or less sense to you....Distrowatch always has the latest news on releases and the links for finding them.Phoronix has lots of general news.... though they seem to like ubuntu for some strange reason.Good luck in your search.RegardsChristian

author: steff
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 10:37:45 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 25, 2011, 09:26:39 pmOf course, you could go ever further and separate things into system binaries, statically-linked system binaries, user binaries, statically linked user binaries, libraries in 32- and 64-bit and so on. Which is exactly what the UNIX filesystem does. It's actually a rather finer-grained and more logical setup than Windows, but obviously you're coming to it from the perspective of someone who knows the Windows setup and hasn't got used to the UNIX one. That said, it should be possible to use an Ubuntu box without really knowing what's going on under the hood at all. Both my parents do, because I got fed up with fixing their Windows machines.FWIW, on an Ubuntu box you should practically never have to compile anything unless you're installing software you've written yourself (and lo, there's a /usr/local filesystem hierarchy typically used for things like that). Have a look at Synaptic or better still get comfortable with apt-get and apt-cache. Not only will these give you access to a vast array of software, but they handle keeping everything up to date and in matching versions so new packages don't break old ones.One thing I suspect you have run into is a problem more or less specific to Ubuntu, which is that the forums are full of people who are very very pleased with themselves for running what they perceive as a "leet" operating system and who know a lot less than they like to imagine they do. You may find that looking for documentation on Debian (which is what Ubuntu underlyingly is) will get you things written by actual grown-ups.

author: steff
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 10:42:38 pm
content: Quote from: kaptain_zero on December 25, 2011, 10:27:46 pmOoh, KDE's a good point. I always forget about it because it (and GNOME) are too heavyweight and all-pervading for my tastes, but it might well be a good call for a more Windows-like experience. There's a "Kubuntu" flavour of Ubuntu.Also worth noting that you can install whole new desktop environments on an existing Ubuntu install without reinstalling the whole OS. I believe "sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop" followed by logging out and selecting the Kubuntu session on the login screen will get everything, kubuntu-desktop being a meta-package that depends on the the whole KDE stack.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 10:58:21 pm
content: Quote from: alm on December 25, 2011, 10:21:14 pmAnd the reason I used it is because I need the latest things supported, not 1 or 2 generation old.Quote from: alm on December 25, 2011, 10:21:14 pmHmmmm, use what is available only in one repository and no options to use anything not provided..... If I did that with Microsoft I would be rather limited too. The things I wanted to use my computer for were not all in one tidy repository. Sure if they were it would have been fine.So after using and trying to make my computer only a Linux machine, I had to give up. It would not do what I wanted and I was spending more time learning how to do this and that to make different programs run on the same distro than actually doing work with Linux. Sure I could have mult-booted different installations and different OSes to get everything working, but that would have been crazy to manage too.My conclusion: Mac-"there's and app for that", Linux-"theres a distro for that". I use Windows and although it has problems (MANY!) I can do everything I want with ONE installation. I can also buy an app and it will probably work but even if it doesn't work correctly the chances of it disabling another program or five is very very slim.Linux has its place as does everything else. I will try it again since the last time I used it (or tried) exclusively for a year was 2007. I know, "it is different now" but I have heard this every two years and each time I tried it was too much work to try and get things working for me.The funny thing is that Ubuntu was making great inroads IMHO to becoming a one distro fits all easy to use common Linux. Somewhere their vision fell apart and it is just another fragmented also ran distro.Just my personal opinions and experiences here, nothing else.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 11:17:04 pm
content: I "should" also point out that many things that we take for graded in Windows, is another story under GNU/Linux. E.g. movies and music. In some distros (mainly U.S. based ones) you can't just install it and play a movie right away. It's somehow illegal for the distro to include libraries that will decode H264 or mp3. Users must find an install those packets later. A trivial usually operation.Alexander.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 11:49:54 pm
content: Linux is a cancer.Regards,Steve.

author: kaptain_zero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2011, 11:57:07 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on December 25, 2011, 11:17:04 pmExactly why I suggest using a live-cd to take things for a spin first. I don't know that US based distros are any different from EU or wherever, it's more the philosophy of the distribution. PClinuxOS, which is very much US based, includes ALL the goodies in the basic package including all the common codecs and closed source device drivers such as Nvidia's drivers etc. Other distributions only include "open source" drivers, codecs and leave it to the user to decide if they wish to use closed source software.... That is why I liked PClinux, I just installed it and everything worked! Sure... there will be those moments when you do have to go look for something.... but not very often. I only have one repository with mirrors all over the world and if I find something useful that I would like to have included and don't know how to make up the package myself, I can always put in a request on the forum and if it's something that more people want... there's a good chance it will be added.As for compiling oddball stuff, I do on occasion.... and yes, it can be a pain to source all the dependencies, but if I'm capable of compiling something, I'm capable of dealing with the dependencies as well. At least in Linux, the compilers and whatnot are readily available, if not already installed.I don't miss dealing with viruses, trojans, registry files I can't read or understand.... linux configuration files are in text, just open it up and read it... make your tweaks and Bob's your uncle. System is locked down so other users can't bung up your stuff if you share your computer with others and the list goes on. I don't even have to run a defrag program, unless I absolutely want to. I have run it once on my EXT4 file system.... it made zero detectable difference and I don't bother anymore.Some make the point of Linux being free.... I pay money yearly to offset the cost of internet access for the PClinux servers, but it is by choice, and I'm not bound to do so. I just want to support something that I see value in for me.RegardsChristian

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2011, 12:23:31 am
content: Quote from: Simon on December 25, 2011, 09:33:04 pmWow. Simon, you seem to have found lots of issues with Linux, but you have to remember that a distro maker has little control on how all the component apps work - they are all separately managed open source projects.With regards to OpenOffice/LibreOffice, you can set then to default to DOC/XLS/PPT formats, but of course they initially default to the open document formats, and the Microsoft formats are just not open.Once you stop wanting Linux to behave just like Windows, you can actually see what it does do well.As a server, it is just incredible. I have used Linux for a number of servers, and they usually just keep working for years with hardly any maintenance. With Windows servers, there are always issues, and you have to regularly reboot. Linux has no 10 connection limit (like windows Workgroups), no licensing issues or management. I often set up a simple Linux server and then run several specific servers (including Windows) as virtual machines. The reason is that if the hardware dies, I can put the virtual machine on another PC and have it running exactly as before with zero setup. I have just found that virtual machines are extremely robust under Linux, and if you try and do the same thing under Windows, there are problems.At the moment, I have a server running from home that is Ubuntu 10.04 (no windowing GUI) fileserver running three virtual machines - a Windows XP used as a license server for several programs including Maya. A second virtual machine running the totally brilliant Redmine web based project management system (love it) , an OpenVP server, and a SVN server; and a third server used as a Wordpress development server. The server was set up 3 years ago, and I don't do anything to it (except for occasional updates) - it just runs. The main Ubuntu fileserver uses Windows NTFS formatted volumes for storing files, so that I can read the same drives in any Windows PC. I use Sata drives in a removable caddy for backup, and I can plug and unplug then while the server is running. Try doing that on Windows with standard Sata (not esata - just ordinary Sata) drives.If you don't like the sluggishness of Gnome or KDE on slowish hardware, there are distro's with lightweight GUI alternatives that are extremely fast.As a workstation, picking the right distro is the key. There are several designed to look like Windows, there are some like Centos designed for stability, there are some optimized for Multimedia. Take your pick.You have a choice of using the application build versions that come with the distro which has the advantage of easy updates, but the application version can easily be out of date.Alternately, you can compile the latest version of an app on your Linux system. A bit more techy, but usually not that hard. It is then up to you to download and recompile when you need to update.i use Windows 99% of the time, and I have not been tempted to move to a Linux workstation for general use, but when I need to do something that Linux just does way better then Windows or OS/X, I use it.The best way to get started is to use the Wubi installer to install one of the many Ubuntu versions into a single large file (a virtual disk file) on your Windows PC, and give you a dual boot option. It is a dead simple install, and when it runs, you have access to your Windows files.So it is nothing to do with snobbery - it is just that for some things, Linux is light years ahead of anything else. Especially for price and freedom from licensing issues. Windows and OS/X are better at many things, but is that a surprise? We are are comparing free software to the products of two of the biggest and richest companies in the world.Richard

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2011, 08:40:16 am
content: I think the best distro from this scope is ArchLinux. In very rare cases I couldn't find something in the AUR. ABS+pacman make things easy after you locate your pactet in the AUR.Alexander.Quote from: kaptain_zero on December 25, 2011, 11:57:07 pm

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2011, 10:06:55 am
content: well I've just booted up mint, it seems to work better, my screen has come back to life (it is not the best of screens infact this particular laptop model's one known downfall) as under ubuntu I could hardly read the damn thing, have no idea what it was doing.And, and, mint actually tells me what my graphics is and I beleive runs a driver for it and there are more icons in the control panel, I'm just installing it now, see how it goes, my laptop is partitioned anyhow now and i certainly don't want to keep ubuntu on it so might as well keep putting linux systems on it till I'm happy with one and then can think of adding linux to my PC. As i said I can only evaluate the system properly if it's running on real hardware

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2011, 10:36:04 am
content: Could you post the output of the commandslspci,lsusb,cat /proc/cpuinfo. Just, curious.Alexander.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2011, 10:56:02 am
content: this is as far as i got:http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1900101the thread was locked and split, not sure what they did with the original one, I think it may have been removed just to prevent hurting peoples ego

author: djsb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2011, 11:00:06 am
content: I've just installed Mint 12 this morning. Had to do an install from a Live CD as I could not upgrade my Mint 10 installation from within. As usual there was a problem with Mint 12 not being able to see my existing XP partition first time around.It only gave me the option of wiping the whole disk and installing itself. So I had to use Partition commander (separate partitioning software) to remove the Mint 10 partition and reformat it into a FAT32 partition. The Mint installer then saw that I had XP already on my machine and everything went OK from there. This is one of the roadblocks to wider takeup-having to mess around with disc partitioning. It's a bit scary if you don't know what your doing. Anyway I'm off to fine tune the installation and later upgrade it to the full DVD version online.David.P.S Just spent the afternoon compiling KiCAD from source following the instructions herehttp://www.wayneandlayne.com/blog/2010/12/03/how-to-build-kicad-on-ubuntu/Please read my comments (when they finally appear-Currently being moderated) about how I managed it.I will post this information in the KiCAD sub-forum for other later on.

author: Dagon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2011, 11:02:08 am
content: QuoteThis is one of the reasons I run Mint. First time I installed it everything just worked. No messing around with drivers, trying to get components running or anything else. In years of using various distros that never happened before. There were a few more hiccups with mint 12 but that was more to do with the move to gnome 3 then anything else.

author: shebu18
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2011, 01:55:09 pm
content: I am using ubuntu 10.04 and 9.04 for a time now and can not complain about much. I don't like the close/minimize/maximize buttons on the left side but that is changed fast. The system is stable, i can use the programs with no problem and the customization is ok after installing compiz.With the new versions i had only problems. No installing, no booting after installing and so on.The good part of ubuntu is the debian roots. Many programs are found easier for debian than the other distros.

author: wkb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2011, 02:05:52 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 25, 2011, 05:54:19 pmMacOSX is not based on Linux. The underlying kernel is based on Mach, most of the user-land is based on FreeBSD. The GUI etc is Apple's design.

author: ee851
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2011, 08:35:14 pm
content: I use and recommend a debian-linux distribution called SimplyMEPIS. It too is available as a live CD. So if you have access to a CD burner and have a high-throughput internet connection, you can download a copy, burn it to CDR, and try it before you install it. This is important to make sure that it will work with all your computer's peripheral devices before you install it.KiCAD is available in the debian linux world as an APT package. Haven't tried it yet, though.

author: xygor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2011, 09:31:30 pm
content: This is interesting.http://spins.fedoraproject.org/fel/I run it in virtualbox.(fel = Fedora Electronic Lab; apps for ee's preinstalled)

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2011, 10:33:51 pm
content: That fel project does look interesting. I will have to try it.I probably should try virtualbox too, but I am just used to VMWare.Richard