First bicycle with hidden motor found in competition - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 03:59:29 pm
content: Saturday, during the worldchampion cyclocross in Zolder, Belgium, UCI found a first bike that has a motor built in.They used a tablet with an app to point at the bikes in the change area , and one with 150 Watt electromotor was detected.Sad low for sports, but cool App.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 04:05:41 pm
content: Some people will do anything to cheat.Where did they hide the batteries?

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 04:12:57 pm
content: More links :http://cyclingtips.com/2015/07/hidden-motor-demonstration-with-greg-lemond/(another video in article)https://www.cxmagazine.com/motor-mechanical-doping-femke-van-den-driessche-suspected-2016-cyclocross-world-championships-update

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 04:16:25 pm
content: Available for purchase here:http://www.vivax-assist.com/en/produkte/vivax-assist-4-0/vivax-assist_4-0.php

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 04:27:21 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on February 01, 2016, 04:12:57 pmThat's the one I'm referring to. This is the event where the device is actually detected in a bicycle on an official circuit. The racer didn't use it, but it was parked in her technical area.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 04:29:17 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on February 01, 2016, 04:16:25 pmYes, it has been for sale on cycling fairs for some time, but this was the first time that it's been found on a race track.I'm curious to learn how an app on a generic tablet can detect the embedded motor. That's what the UCI claims.

author: PointyOintment
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 05:36:13 pm
content: Quote from: jancumps on February 01, 2016, 03:59:29 pmAny details on this app? I'd think this would require some hardware too.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 05:47:48 pm
content: I like the mechanical design very neat, quite impressed. I could understand picking up a small signal from perhaps a PWM controller if the motor were running. I think it was most likely an RF sniffer that picked up the processor electronics.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 07:56:51 pm
content: Perhaps the microphone inside the tablet could detect the ultrasound produced by the inverter?

author: rich
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:12:21 pm
content: Looks like they simply remove the bottom bracket and shove a borescope up there! No fancy RF detection going on.

author: dexters_lab
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:13:19 pm
content: wonder if they could just introduce x-raying during the scrutineering process?but yes, a sad day for cycling

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:15:15 pm
content: Quote from: rich on February 01, 2016, 08:12:21 pmThey didn't remove anything until the app indicated there was something wrong. When they tried, that bottom bracket could not be removed (for obvious reasons: there was a motor attached to it).

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:17:03 pm
content: Quote from: rich on February 01, 2016, 08:12:21 pmThat was done later, they did another check with what looks like a rugged tablet.Maybe they have something like that RF to audio device that was on mailbag recently.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:19:31 pm
content: What about density measurement? Nobody will use a bicycle with a solid pipe.Also, a magnet would probably work to.

author: Emo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:29:00 pm
content: There are several apps that measure a magnetic field. The strong magnets if the motor can easily be detected with such an app

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:30:15 pm
content: Quote from: Emo on February 01, 2016, 08:29:00 pmThat's my first thought too. Carbon frames don't shield that, do they?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:49:10 pm
content: Quote from: jancumps on February 01, 2016, 04:29:17 pmThey didn't claim anything like this. In the news I have read they used some "tablet like" device. I guess a thermal camera would do the job easily.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:59:52 pm
content: Quote from: dexters_lab on February 01, 2016, 08:13:19 pmThe motor reduces the co2 emission. We should applaud her.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 09:12:45 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 01, 2016, 08:49:10 pmThe bicycle hadn't been used, and had just been rinsed with high pressure water.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 10:32:17 pm
content: Quote from: jancumps on February 01, 2016, 09:12:45 pmThe cyclist claims it wasn't used. There is no any confirmation that it actually wasn't used.EDIT: Actually she says it wasn't used on purpose:Quote

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 10:55:03 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 01, 2016, 10:32:17 pmThe analysis of the race as it stands now is that she didn't use that bike in the race where it was detected. It may have been used by someone, but it wasn't used by the racer in this particular race (yet).Still, after that bike had been cleaned by technical staff with high pressure water, and while it was idle for at least some time, UCI managed to find the motor with tablet and app.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 10:58:20 pm
content: Quote from: jancumps on February 01, 2016, 10:55:03 pmSource pleasemine source is here:http://www.reuters.com/article/us-cycling-fraud-idUSKCN0V90TKIt clearly say that bike was used during the race.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 11:00:34 pm
content: My source is from the television news. I'm not going to type it over here. You have to blindly believe me.If you're fluent in Dutch, you can trace it back on sporza.be.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 11:03:02 pm
content: Quote from: jancumps on February 01, 2016, 11:00:34 pmI'm more convinced that Reuters is more credible than some local news said.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 11:08:08 pm
content: Now on BBChttp://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/35452791

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 11:26:05 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 01, 2016, 11:03:02 pmThat's perfectly ok.

author: HAL-42b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 11:56:34 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 01, 2016, 11:03:02 pmDepends. I personally witnessed local news being bent completely out of shape by Reuters to support a particular agenda.For me credibility depends on1-Who is reporting the developments as they happen, play-by-play, not the next day.2-Who is closer to the news.Reuters is in the business of buying news from reporters like above and 'filtering' them to suit a particular narrative. They are much more subtle than Fox News but the influence is still there.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:00:43 am
content: for the record: my local news is local to the event, and reliable.It is the source for the Reuters articles in this case.The thing that I'm interested in here is not the news (no one doubts that the was a motor in that particular bike, not Reuters nor any other press outlet), but how the tablet and App were able to detect it.In the spirit of the EE forum:how can a tablet and an app detect a non-running motor inside a cyclo cross frame.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:01:20 am
content: Quote from: HAL-42b on February 01, 2016, 11:56:34 pmWell, I'm convinced. Unless it's something about politics.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:04:40 am
content: ?? Reuters and Belgium news are in line. There's no politics involved, just a bike and a motor - and a tablet and an app.No need to deviate. We can stick to electronics.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:09:00 am
content: Quote from: jancumps on February 02, 2016, 12:00:43 amBelgian news will defend Belgian cyclist, that what I know. All local news do this. And, excuse me, but that story about that she didn't ride on that bike and don't know anything about this, while completely apposite in other sources with citations what she said, sounds like BS for me. Also some strange app which can convert a tablet into the extraordinary device, doesn't sound plausible too.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:10:24 am
content: Quote from: jancumps on February 02, 2016, 12:04:40 amI'm not deviating. I said that there is no reason why Reuters would be biased (no politics in this case).

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:11:31 am
content: How did the app detect the motor - regardless of press agency?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:18:42 am
content: Quote from: jancumps on February 02, 2016, 12:11:31 amThere was no magic app, without specialized hardware at least.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:23:13 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 02, 2016, 12:09:00 amWe've seen a mix of reporters, witnesses, family, UCI members, analysts, technicians, team leads, bicycle racers, insiders, believers and disbelievers.The press did not defend the Belgian cyclist. They reported many facets of the event. The racer and her entourage were interviewed, and experts.The coverage was balanced.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:34:02 am
content: Quote from: jancumps on February 02, 2016, 12:23:13 amFrankly, in such cases I completely don't care what family, "analysts", "experts" (hell where they find so many of these guys), unknown insiders and other bullshitters say.The facts are: On the press conference Brian Cookson from UCI said there was a fraud and they found a motor.Femke Van den Driessche admitted she was riding on this bike, though didn't know about the motor.Anything other are just speculations at this moment.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:35:13 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 02, 2016, 12:18:42 amThey didn't remove anything from the cycle while scanning with tablet and app.It's only after this particular bike was flagged as suspicious by the app, that they took a closer look.They could remove the saddle after the facts, and detect wiring.They could not do what you show in your photo, becuase that part of the bike could not be removed.- the app and tablet were able to detect the motor inside the frame without mechanical intervention. -

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:38:46 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 02, 2016, 12:34:02 amslight correction, not related to how this motor is detected:"Femke Van den Driessche admitted she was riding on this bike"This is not true. She doesn't.That is not relevant to the fact though. A bike with motor was on the circuit. And a tablet + app were able to detect it without mechanical intrusion.How?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:41:29 am
content: Quote from: jancumps on February 02, 2016, 12:35:13 amAre you posting on the engineering forum or not? Please don't tell me about the magic applications working on the usual tablet without any special hardware, and being able to scan for some hardware invisible from the outside. If you after those, go watch few of the latest Mission: Impossible movies.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:44:24 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 02, 2016, 12:41:29 amYes I am posting on an engineering forum. And I'm trying to get to the engineering facts.How have they detected it?UCI says they will make the App available to all participating countries. They didn't say they will make a device available - just the App.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:48:12 am
content: Quote from: jancumps on February 02, 2016, 12:44:24 amSource where UCI said this. And please without someone clueless on the news said. I say, that this is a complete BS without a dedicated hardware.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:49:15 am
content: Please. The representative of the UCI. Last Saturday. On my TV set. In a press conference. Covered by international press.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:56:57 am
content: Quote from: jancumps on February 02, 2016, 12:49:15 amI cannot find any mentions that he said something about application or tablets.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:57:53 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 02, 2016, 12:56:57 amI saw him saying it on the news.

author: alho
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 04:24:01 am
content: Quote from: mariush on February 01, 2016, 04:12:57 pmArticle mentions that wireless motor model is controlled with bluetooth which is one possible way of detection.Quote from: Emo on February 01, 2016, 08:29:00 pm150watt motor must have quite strong magnets. By far the simplest explanation.Quote from: blueskull on February 01, 2016, 05:33:10 pmQuote from: chris_leyson on February 01, 2016, 05:47:48 pmQuote from: wraper on February 01, 2016, 08:49:10 pmIn few thousand dollar system I'd assume the electronics would be in sleep mode when not in use and anyway very low power. Detecting unknown weak noise source in noisy environment seems unlikely, maybe with purpose made meter but with a tablet?

author: rt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 06:25:20 am
content: I expect they are using the phone/tablet as a magnetometer (see:)Most competition bikes are carbon fibre so no problem to detect motor magnets in the downtube near the crank case on the bike (which is where most of these designs put the motor.) This makes initial screening of bikes quick without the need to dismantle.Once there is an unexplained magnetic signal then the inspector asks to dismantle the bike. Therefore you have the description in the news reports of them removing the saddle and seeing wires at the bottom of the downtube. When they tried to remove the bottom bracket (crankcase) this was difficult as the motor gear system was hard to remove.Sadly there have been plenty of reports of motors being used in competition for over 10years now. Road racing is a sport where even the addition of 10-20watts for short periods of time can make a key breakaway possible. For solo timetrialling the electric energy addition translates into a straightforward improvement in time.rt

author: rt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 06:36:45 am
content: Quote from: jancumps on February 02, 2016, 12:38:46 amThe current information is that she was not riding the bike with the motor during the competition but that it was in her pit area. Cyclocross races are typically multi-lap and riders may switch to another one of their bikes if they come into the pits during the course of the race. Therefore any bike in a rider's pit area is considered to be "in competition" even if not used.rt

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 08:16:14 am
content: Quote from: rt on February 02, 2016, 06:36:45 amYes. That's a good summary of the situation.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 11:32:56 am
content: This really is disgusting. If she was going to cheat she should just be shooting up steroids, growth hormones, getting blood transfusions, and taking whatever drugs every other competitive cyclist takes