For the Love of Radio Controlled Aircraft in the US, New Rules Possible. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2020, 06:14:59 pm
content: If you love to fly RC, please make constructive comments to the Federal Aviation Administration on their Notice of Proposed Rule Making Here:Deadline is Tuesday. March 2nd.I'll spare the political comments, but lets just say RC in your own backyard or building your own models from scratch is very much dead three years from the date of implementation, if implemented as proposed. Your model will be required to have electronics preventing takeoff without logging into a private pay to play notification, and approval system that provides tracking to FAA, Law Enforcement etc..For those of you in the rest of the world, as the US Aerospace rules go, your rules will generally follow, in the name of international harmonization. You do not have to be a US Citizen to comment to our lawmakers.By the way, if you do not like RC aircraft piloted in real time by a human being without autopilot, I'd understand if you comment too, and would appreciate your doing so. Because otherwise this rule was probably largely written by industry lobbyists and law enforcement.If you can't write your own, the Academy of Model Aeronautics in the US has a response letter you can copy and paste.https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2019/12/31/2019-28100/remote-identification-of-unmanned-aircraft-systemsOn NPRM replies to the federal government, emotional comments like "I Love this new rule you Stalinist Dogs" get filtered out. Comments that offer valid alternatives or constructive criticism get put into a spreadsheet of comments that get read by rule makers.Steve

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2020, 06:59:50 pm
content: One more in the same line as the PIRATE Act for radio and removing Net Neutrality rules.I have too many comments about this that are #defined as not appropriate for this forum, according toDave and the Mods.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2020, 07:47:06 pm
content: An amazing amount of bureaucracy to control a perceived threat, I'm not even sure what the threat is. Obviously, terrorists might just forget to pay $5 to register their UAS, so can't see how it would be effective anyway.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 05:50:13 am
content: I can imagine the intent is that vehicles that cannot be matched with a registration would gather alerts and preparations for capture/shootdown.Whether that can actually work in an environment with spoofed IDs is another question.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 06:47:34 am
content: Quote from: helius on February 29, 2020, 05:50:13 amI can imagine the scenario will be: "Shoot down first and ask questions later."

author: MyHeadHz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 07:05:52 am
content: Despite the rhetoric, these notice periods are really nothing more than a legally-required formality. This period is to release the rule to the public to see if it has any legal holes in it, so it will stand up to scrutiny in court. They already know exactly what they want to do and they are going to do precisely that.It's all a legal equivalent of feature-creep. It's a bit of a long story, but (from what I understand) some judge a few years ago *reinterpreted* well-established law and miracled the FAA some new powers out of thin air. They've been running with it ever since.The only realistic scenario to stop it is the US Supreme Court issuing an injunction for some reason, which would happen after the input period ends. This is unlikely as they didn't take any action to stop the initial powers when they were first miracled.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 07:12:34 am
content: I really wish someone would remind the government that they work for us, not the other way around. I really have no idea what they hope to accomplish by hassling a bunch of hobbyists who have not caused any problems. The whole "drone" thing has been blown way out of proportion, for all the hoopla I don't ever recall seeing a drone outside of parks and flying fields and have not heard of a single serious incident. I was actually thinking the whole hysteria seemed to have died out as I don't remember seeing any of the hyperbolic scare articles recently that were everywhere a few years ago.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 07:27:09 am
content: Just curious if in part of the process, that somehow the DJI will get "huawei-ed" ?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 10:53:03 am
content: Terrorism is pack and parcel of life in a ******** societyObviously nobody is going to shoot down your model 747 flying over your backyard, except once in a blue moon to show it on national TV and make a point.Quote from: LaserSteve on February 28, 2020, 06:14:59 pmI bet without reading that this is aimed primarily at banning manufacture and sale of off-the-shelf drones and components which could be readily bought and weaponized by terrorists. Now all of that will need to have tracking built-in, increasing the barrier to entry for criminals.Oh well

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 02:56:41 pm
content: There is a body of opinion that this is being driven by lobbying from commercial interests whose agenda is to see low air space cleared for revenue earning operations.Amazon in particular getsaccusedmentioned a lot because of its interests in autonomous delivery drones. They wouldn't want them encumbered with heavy and expensive collision detection and avoidance systems and presumably will rely on having clear airspace, directed by remote systems which plan and control all flight paths.In the interests of balance there are others who "claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys".Xjet has made some good youtube videos about the threat to the hobby (but not as far as I know about any agendas behind it). I fear it is now pretty much a done deal and the end of the hobby - worldwide - unless a government or two unexpectedly develop a backbone and remember who they represent.The majority probably won't give a dam because they aren't interested in the hobby; but let them wait till their own hobbys come under threat....

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 05:20:56 pm
content: DJI, a major maker of drones, is dead set against the FAA's proposed rules. They believe in remote ID, but a different approach than the FAA's. The DJI approach is more in line with the ADS-B used by manned aircraft.You can learn more about the subject and the two approaches at:https://content.dji.com/we-strongly-support-drone-remote-id-but-not-like-this/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=edm&utm_campaign=comment_submission&sc_src=email_3347439&sc_eh=2ac6ea2a7be1ad871&sc_llid=758013&sc_lid=166239926&sc_uid=EiFuztT5IeI have a DJI drone which I use for photography. Essentially a really tall tripod. If the FAA gets their way my drone would be obsolete.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 05:46:04 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 29, 2020, 07:12:34 amI fully agree with all this. This is very sad.Besides, if the drones mania has actually triggered all this, it's even more sad, as the typical RC aircraft hobbyist (the serious one) usually doesn't care about drones, that they see as toys mostly. So that's a double punishment.It's all the more a punishment for hobbyists that drones themselves are bound to be used in an increasing number of commercial (and probably military) applications. Which all means that as very often, those regulations will only cause problems for hobbyists and "small" users. Large companies and organizations will have no problem getting approved and paying for all this. With the end result that, even with all the security additions you can imagine, the sheer potential number of them will be statistically much more of a hazard than RC aircrafts ever were, by far. You always have to take a look at the big picture.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2020, 07:39:28 am
content: Quote from: Tom45 on February 29, 2020, 05:20:56 pmThe FAA system has an obvious advantage of being either pre-equipped or easily retrofittable with means of remote shutdown when a drone is caught being naughty. You aren't going to call F-16 strikes every time a quadcopter is spotted carrying some unidentified package in the vicinity of a school or getting in the way of legally operating aircraft, but revoking its credentials by a phone app is a piece of cake.

author: TheHolyHorse
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2020, 08:19:49 am
content: Even if all this goes through, they're not really preventing anything, except ruining things for the good guys. The bad guys will load a bomb on a drone anyway, it's not like some law or regulation will prevent people from doing bad.But this is pretty standard behavior for people who are clueless of how the real world work, ie politicians etc.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2020, 03:34:11 pm
content: Quote from: TheHolyHorse on March 01, 2020, 08:19:49 amYup.Quote from: TheHolyHorse on March 01, 2020, 08:19:49 amI'm not sure this is all as clueless as you think, but it's certainly more political than practical (meaning: more of a strategic step). As I hinted in my other post, I think it may just be a preliminary step to prepare for a world where drones (and otherwise flying devices) could become much more ubiquitous than they currently are - not to address the current situation, which indeed doesn't pose any significant problem at the moment.You can't per se blame politics to try and address future problems - that's even what politics is about. But you can certainly not agree with the way those potential problems are being addressed, and what kind of future it's preparing for us.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2020, 08:58:02 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 01, 2020, 03:34:11 pmSo how far up do you "own" the airspace above your house or land? If an Amazon drone decides to fly over my property to fulfill a delivery, do they have to pay me? Do I have the option to use it for target practice?

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2020, 09:02:55 pm
content: Let me make sure I understand this.This data would be required to be transmitted through an internet connection?What about the vast areas of the USA which will never have real internet access?What about people who cannot afford, or do not want an internet connection on their premises?

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2020, 09:11:24 pm
content: Ooh, but I am already seeing one benefit here.In rual areas of the USA, most people don't want any sort of unmanned vehicle flying over their property and infringing on their privacy. These are routinely shot down when people fly their drones over private property, and this even sometimes makes the news.With this rule, you could simply register yourself a unmanned vehicle, and simply broadcast it as operating over your expanse of property 24/7/365. This should keep other vehicles away as they generally prefer to avoid collisions

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2020, 10:15:08 pm
content: QuoteSeeing how we have entire cities in the US lacking "cybersecurity", can't see how this will ever happen.And yeah, the whole "internet required" part is ridiculous.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 06:49:08 am
content: Quote from: TheHolyHorse on March 01, 2020, 08:19:49 amThey will have to build this drone themselves in the first place.Regulating "bad guys" is futile and even politicians aren't dumb enough to think otherwise. What such regulations really target is manufacturers of off the shelf solutions. I bet it's going to become illegal to sell drones that aren't backdoored by the government.See WiFi - the FCC got tired of hunting people who modify their gear for higher TX power and instead banned devices that accept modified firmwares.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 07:02:06 am
content: I filed my comments. I also noted the cellular packet data idea is really BAD. I also mentioned that there is a reserved band at 5 Ghz for transportation communications that is 1. International in two of the three ITU world regions, , and 2. Currently Unused. However in the US, cellular companies are lusting and lobbying for that spectrum to be reassigned.In my case I argued for a STEM education exemption as I work at a University that has a model aircraft design competition team. I'd hate to see students loose access to any kind of pre-professional competition, as many of them really benefit from an exposure to actual design and hands on skills.I also suggested a separate rule for models that do not have a INS, GPS, or Camera, basically for the old school types like me.. I also argued for flight on private property for models at 400 feet max altitude and 1000 foot LOS radius. With the opportunity to request a waiver for larger/higher. The way I read the proposal was restriction to a 400 foot cube.Thirty four thousand comments, mostly against new rules from what I have read, and climbing. Just now the NPRM is getting generic press notice.Getting 34K people to mostly agree on anything other then pizza or Chinese takeout is tasty is amazing.Steve

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 07:58:45 am
content: Quote from: edy on March 01, 2020, 08:58:02 pmThe simple answer in most countries you don't own any airspace.Rules for overflying private property are a country by country thing but in Oz providing you conform to the relevant ANO (Air navigation order) for the R/C aircraft or Drone (I draw a real distinction between the two and I own both) it is absolutely ok to do so. HOWEVER what is not OK is to invade the privacy of people in that property and that is where the rise of Drone usage in particular idiot owners of them has caused the need for increased regulation. In Oz my Drones or R/C aircraft are LEGAL so shooting one down would be illegal not that we generally have that sort of issue. Even if one of my airframes came down on private property it remains mine and 'legally' I can retrieve it and if the property owner refuses then they would be effectively at fault. But the simple answer is you shouldn't be over private property if you can't clear that property if it goes wrong and it does.Way back in time well over thirty years ago when I started flying R/C usage was in the main constrained to registered flying fields and was very much a Hobby as the airframes were scratch built from plans or 'sometimes' from a kit for those who could afford them. The exception to this was those of us who flew Gliders as we tended to hang out on Hills and Cliffs ridge soaring. Come forward 30 years and MOST now buy ready to fly or maybe screw the gear in airframes and almost no one builds from plans or from scratch and unassembled kits are as rare as rocking horse poop and cost more than prebuilt RTF airframes.Add to this ease of access has seen a major decline in numbers joining these formally peak national bodies so by number they clout with National Governments is in decline. This apart from cheaper access came about with the increase in Electric Aircraft has made it noise friendly enough that you could drop down toy your local park and have a fly without upsetting the noise sensitive ears of the neighbors. That said I have had a noise complaint and the Police dropped around when I was flying an Unpowered Glider from a Bungy launchThis get online and buy a cool thing because you can afford it doesn't give the numpty allegedly in control any clues on weather or what happens if or how should I behave around people, buildings etc so Governments who in the main used to reply on input from the R/C bodies have decided to go draconian whenever possible. Canada was last year brought in one of the most kneejerk set of dumbass regulations in the World not sure if it has been moderated at all since?Like a lot of things in this world banning or tightly controlling them is easier than seeking a workable compromise or extending a former compromise that is/was decades oldThe excuse of it will stop the bad guys is more than everyou can buy a RTF unit already built that is not DJI or GPS locked strap an exploding rock to it and off you go. If you are really serious about doing harm from a distance you would use fixed wing (much higher speed and payload for way less $) and fly line of sight with that rock. 100MPH+ 2-3kg of exploding Rock and accurate at 500-1000m for a few hundred $ without a GPS on low frequency AM or FM and no where near the current Drone jamming gears range. This is where some of the fear and smear merchants and media just don't get it. This sort of device is decades old and harder to stop than a 'Drone'.Sorry for being a bit long winded but why we are now here is the result of where we used to be and so called 'progress'Good Luck to the USA mob if it passes I am sure our turn will come soon after

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 12:58:57 pm
content: So I spend much of the night realizing my 7400 word essay was overkill, although the proposal within was very logical except for the backhaul. I read about thirty pages of the comments. I even came up with a term for non INS/GPS based models vs over the horizon capable drones. My term was "Traditional Model Aircraft". Imagine my surprise when I came across the attached Gem of a comment from a former FAA employee...Enjoy... Its a public document by nature of being submitted...Steve

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 03:55:23 pm
content: Quote from: beanflying on March 02, 2020, 07:58:45 amYup...This is a very nasty topic actually, a HUGE can of worms.If your neighbour flies a drone over your house, neither of you owns the airspace, but you can have them stop it for the annoyance: noise, potential risk, and invading your privacy if the thing has a camera.Now if a private or public company has gotten official authorization to fly over your house, there's probably very little you can do about it.You can probably try the same as above: sue them for the annoyance - if you can prove it's really an annoyance, which may not be that easy to do once some laws have changed - but not for violating your property.As to exactly how much height above ground you "own" (that is considered part of your property), I guess it depends on local regulations, and I admit I have no clue. Is it the top of your tallest tree if you have trees? Is it the top of your roof? Dunno.

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 04:24:17 pm
content: Actually, not even a company can fly over your house if they are using a camera (and better yet, a microphone) that can see more than the naked eye can easily see from a commercial aircraft as this would fall under privacy and eavesdropping laws. The only reason we haven't seen (many) lawsuits over the satellite imagry available online is because the resultion is poor enough that the argument can be made that anything visible in those satellite pictures would be visible from a commercial aircraft in controlled airspace to the naked eye. There won't ever be any "satellite voyeurism" with google earth, looking into people's windows and backyard fenced in pools.Mark my words, if the industry blindly moves forward with this pipe dream and commercial drones start flying over private property, they are going to have so many "drone shot out of the sky" cases to investigate and attempt to prosecute that they will be busy for decades. People will quickly wise up to the fact that Amazon drones have "stuff" on them, and the criminals who are shoplifting now will be knocking drones down later.As far as private property, you don't fly a drone or any other UAV over private property without permission from the owner. You just don't. If you do, next thing you're liable to hear is BANG and your UAV is falling out of the sky. Does the UAV have a camera? You have likely violated reasonable expectation of privacy and can be charged with both criminal and civil crimes over this. Don't make the argument that "oh, I think it is is illegal to shoot down drones" because people don't care - At least half of us are wise enough to understand what tyranny is and I'm pretty sure half of the USA is about read to start shooting over it!While it is true that Americans have given some leeway to utility companies to run power/water/etc lines over/under their private property, the drone thing is a different situation and we are already at (and even past) the "enough is enough" level. Politicians won't even try to address the out of control costs in the healthcare industry, yet they want to legislate for drones over your home? Ha! This is a comedy

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 04:38:27 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 02, 2020, 03:55:23 pmI don't think you own the airspace in your own living room! And, the airlines seem to be immune from noise complaints now. And the delivery truck is an annoyance enough.If they fly over my home, I'm going to fly some kites. It'll be like fishing, for drones, and maybe snag a pizza delivery.

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 05:20:08 pm
content: Ok guys the reason politics is banned here is because the more educated one is, the less relevant their opinion is on politics. "Smart with electronics" and "collegel educated" does not have anything to do with "common sense" so we really have no business discussing such matters. Also since half the planet has gone blind on ORANGE MAN BAD pills, this one needs to be brushed asideLet's get back to this FAA stuff

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 05:30:23 pm
content: You may have some answers here for the current state of things:https://www.aerotas.com/blog/2017/10/4/who-owns-the-air-above-your-home

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 05:35:59 pm
content: Quote from: metrologist on March 02, 2020, 04:38:27 pmIf aeromodelling as a hobby is destroyed in the interests of commercial profit making delivery operations, I could see a lot of former modellers moving over to flying scale model barrage balloons ...For some good pictures of barrage balloons:https://militaryhistorynow.com/2015/11/03/forgotten-heroes-how-black-barrage-balloon-soldiers-kept-the-d-day-beaches-safe/

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 05:51:45 pm
content: For those interested in how effective barrage balloons were over London:http://www.bbrclub.org/Barrage%20Balloon%20Cable%20Collisions%20with%20Aircraft%20in%20WWII.htmShort answer: they brought down many more friendly aircraft than hostile.Long answer: not surprising because there were far more friendly aircraft than hostile operating over London and the numbers don't tell you anything about their effectiveness as a deterrence. And talking to "a former member of the Luftwaffe and he told me that it was their greatest fear as they got nearer to the target".

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 05:52:41 pm
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on March 02, 2020, 12:58:57 pmNow that is quite a response

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 06:25:26 pm
content: This has partly been the drone using community shooting themselves in the foot. The number of videos on youtube from mid-height (500ft) drone operations, clearly inside controlled airspace is staggering, and a lot of drone flyers have a seriously bad attitude with the "why should I have to follow that rule" type of attitude.There was a very picturesque video of a drone flying over a local mountrain that went around the office I worked in about 5 years ago. The problem was that the drone was directly in the approach path to an international airport; and a route I was very familiar with, because I've flown it myself in a small plane.My co-workers didn't understand why when they were all going "oooooh" "ahhhhh" and I was saying the guy that made the video should be locked up and throw away the key.A 2kg drone vs a small Cessna is going to get messy; and I'm frankly shocked it hasn't happened yet causing loss of life.I've actually told someone standing 50ft from the control tower (CXH) to stop flying their drone, and they were confused as to why it was an issue.Add that to the wants of the Amazons/Ubereats/UPSs of the world for low level drone delliveries, and airspace is going to get shut down, except for approved flying locations (which is how it used to be for RC planes)

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 09:51:19 pm
content: Quote from: angrybird on March 02, 2020, 06:27:58 pmAs it is you who wants to continue praising him as President WHICH IS POLITICS! I choose to call out the Man well before that which is not. He is a liar, serial marital cheat and morally bankrupt human. And no Australians are most certainly not jealous of this Muppet. So yes please stop talking politicsAnd sort of relatedhttps://qz.com/1571147/boeing-737-max-crisis-puts-spotlight-on-faa-under-trump/The FAA is suffering internal instability and other problems including budget cuts..

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 10:33:02 pm
content: You're not a very nice person... Are you this unkind in real life?

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 10:53:00 pm
content: Great, that means Canada will follow. Seems to be how the cycle goes. US comes up with stricter rules, Canada comes up with stricter rules right after. It seems governments are just trying to slowly ban drones because they want to be the only ones who have rights to use them.They already have it where you need a license here now and need to register it. It's basically like owning a gun.Seems anything people try to do for fun these days is either regulated heavily, taxed, or just made illegal. Governments have to get their ugly face out of our lives.

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 11:03:16 pm
content: I think it has a lot to do with the idea that there is money in it - The believe in Silicon Valley seems to be that everyone will be willing to freely give up the close airspace over their home to drones, like they have for the power and communication wires, to make way for drones delivering all of the things that they believe people will keep buying. This seems to demonstrate some lack of connection with reality, I think many of the people who think like this have never spent even a minute outside of their bubbleIn the end, I expect this to be a lot like the last attempt at drone registration. Mass non-compliance, lawsuits, confusion, ending in retractions and non-enforcement.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 11:05:39 pm
content: And still you keep politic on trying to defend the Convicted Fraudster. This is not fake news or whatever you claim as an excuse these are simple facts about a very flawed immoral man.https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/06/trump-university-court-upholds-25m-settlement-to-give-students-money-backThis is a world wide forum and 98% of the world didn't vote for him so please head off back to twitter to carry on your fight.What he has done and continues to not do for the FAA will only push them toward taking the path of least resistance and clamp down on ALL UAV's be they R/C Aircraft or Drones.

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 11:24:56 pm
content: I'm sorry that you are still not understanding what I have said.We are talking about FAA regulations for UAS/UAV here. FYI, the FAA rules apply to the airspace in the USA. The relevant comments will come from the American public, the same American public who elected this great man President of the USA, and BTW the jobless numbers have been absolutely great since about a year after that decision, and things are going really great there right nowIt's really too bad that nearly 100% of media ignore how great things are going and look for negative spin in everything, but as we know, some people just have a problem with being negative and all we can do is try to change them with kindness... Not sure if this will work on the media, but worth a try?It's totally OK that you have all these opinions about USA matters, but you need to understand how irrelevant they are - The USA doesn't serve you; You don't vote in their elections. Everyone knows that the media hates this President, while the people love him. Honestly, I think he rather enjoys triggering their emotions, which may not be the kindest thing to do, but is rather entertaining as it illustrates the instability that exists inside those who react to itIf you want to be a part of the USA, it's a great place, and welcome to try for citizenship! I promise that no matter what your opinions, I would be your friend as long as you treat me kindly, as you should treat all people

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2020, 11:53:31 pm
content: So now you are just Trolling. Please go back to Faux News and the twittersphere bubble of denial. The simple fact still remains he is a morally bankrupt Muppet.Trying to keep on topic or closer to it.You are failing completely to understand about how the Peak Federal Aviation bodies around the world work is they TALK and WATCH what each does and take bits of legislation and rules from others. The Simple fact is that if the US goes hard then others will follow. So it does concern us and our thought are very relevant!

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 12:29:50 am
content: I am sorry that you are too closed to listen to what I am saying, but that is not my fault. You really do not have a leg to stand on here, and I think you know it. And yes, as I've said (at least once?) let's keep this on topic! The UNITED STATES OF AMERICA's FAA rules on drones*waves American flag*

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 12:36:38 am
content: What part of this concerns us all as fliers around the world is hard for you to understand? I have flown in a handful of other countries in the past at a few World Championships and International events and generally all the local rules in those countries were much the same as here we had to conform to here, this is how has been so we are right to be concerned?You really need to get out of your bubble more the world is large and diverse and interconnected.

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 12:38:16 am
content: You guys should realize that resorting to these typical ad hominem attack only discredits you... They do not serve to discredit me, nor the president of the USA...You should also realize that there is no "world order", this is a logical fallacy in itself! A ratherarrogantthought to think that the leader of a country which is not your own should cater to your well being instead of the well being of the citizens of his own country?This is why I have always said that engineers have no business in political matters

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 01:24:43 am
content: Quote from: angrybird on March 03, 2020, 12:38:16 amThere fixed your erroneous paragraph and spelling for youTrying to play the 'Ad Hominem'defense while making them yourself against others is just soThis Forum again is a world wide one and I hope you get that in your head soon. Rabid Flag waving, chest beating and support for one side of politics regardless of Country or Party of choice is never going to end well as the majority is against your view.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 05:07:33 am
content: Quote from: angrybird on March 02, 2020, 10:33:02 pmSince you're new here, just a suggestion, stop or at least minimize quoting or bringing out religion talk in this "particular" forum, trust me, you will be happier here, just sayin.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 07:44:36 am
content: Quote from: angrybird on March 02, 2020, 06:27:58 pmThen stop brining it up youself and SHUT UP!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 08:13:46 am
content: NO MORE POLITICS!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 10:46:44 am
content: Quote from: Simon on March 03, 2020, 07:44:36 amTo be fair,someone else started bashing Trumpand he was just responding to it. Whether you love or loath the US president, this isn't the place to talk about it. He should have just pressed the report button, rather than rising to it.Anyway, back on topic. I can see it from both sides. It clearly needs to be make more difficult for someone to buy an off the shelf drone and strap a load of explosives to it, but people should also be free to build their own.Perhaps people should be able to make their own RC aircraft, but it has to use approved transmitter and receiver modules, which enable the authorities to disable/track it? On the other hand the real criminals won't care and will do it anyway.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 11:05:23 am
content: There is a complete pointlessness to registering Radios as there is still 100,000's plural if not millions of them out there on 35, 36, 40 and 72 Meg around the world that run basic FM or the really old ones AM. There is simply no smarts in them or two way anything and the data only flows upstream on most until the more modern 2.4Ghz sets. Even the majority of these there is no GPS on the Aircraft or Heli sets just an encrypted burst with data coming back now in a lot of cases for sensors and other bits.It would be like sending out the 'vans' looking for illegal TV's in the UK todayOr like trying to retroactively licence all 27Meg Kids walkie talkies - FUTILE.What you introduce for new sets sold and in particular on consumer drones is another thing entirely. This is in part why DJI is sliding through without a blip in the West as they have shown extreme willingness to work with the various Federal Bodies for better or for worse and allow tracking of their product including geofencing and even the ability I understand to shutdown drones.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 12:27:46 pm
content: Quote from: angrybird on March 03, 2020, 12:20:41 pmPlease stop responding. Talking politics is against the rules here. Someone else started it by making an anti-Trump comment. Of course they were in the wrong and shouldn't have, but you've now caused more trouble by responding to it.QuoteAnd posting religious stuff like that, has nothing to do with the subject, is a good way to upset people more and get banned.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 12:33:30 pm
content: Sorted! anyone else want some time out?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 12:47:09 pm
content: Had a few people correct me how RCs are not toys. Some research, I saw where a child was killed when they were hit with a toy boat. Of course, it was also kids piloting the boat. If the RC group feels these are not toys and they really could be potentially lethal, maybe they should be better regulated. Require a license to sell and operate. Maybe something like a drivers test that you have to renew. Other hobbies require licenses as well. Guns, Amateur Radio, Drag Racing....

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 12:50:34 pm
content: There was a case of a kid that got his head cut off by the rotor of a rather large RC helicopter he was flying. Indeed much like model steam engines that run on the real thing there comes a point where some models are actually getting closer to the real thing even if on a smaller scale.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 03:59:41 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on March 03, 2020, 10:46:44 amThere are already systems that can track and identify these devices through TDOA techniques, RF signatures, and communication protocols. DroneShield is one such example, and there are new technologies that will hit the market soon. There is no need to force this on consumers. The authorities have means of detecting unlawful driving, for example, without forcing transponders and other controls on vehicles. All they are doing is making this a government revenue source and commercial venture for private industry, and shifting all of the costs to consumers.RC is dangerous. You can loose an eye from a paper airplane. Life is dangerous. This endless pursuit of utopia where nobody gets sick, hurt, and everyone lives forever. What a great future.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 04:06:14 pm
content: You can't regulate stupid or evil.@Joe R/C Aircraft and Helis were never 'Toys' when I started. The building of them prior by the user gave you some background in a lot of cases and lead you invariably in most cases to a club of people with knowledge to learn how to use your several months of work. This is no longer the case and we have idiots with no skills, background and a wad of cash buying a 'toy' because they are cool.@simon that one Helicopter is a case of Stupid. The Owner shouldn't have been flying it where they were and the kid shouldn't have been in front of the pilot if it is the case I think you are referring to. I own a couple of similar sized helis and humans behind helis in front helps and in Oz as with most countries we already have a federal law which is part of the Air Navigation Order for a 30m exclusion rule.In the UK somewhere over twenty years ago a Man as a Spectator was killed by a 1kg Balsa glider when he was struck in the temple by it. The spectator was in an 'appropriate' place but a wind gust if memory serves blew the glider on a ridge back into the spectator. While a complete accident things like this do happen 'occasionally' but overly harsh regulation won't magic them away.Life has risks and like the current CoV outbreak the risks of Being Killed by a Red bus on a Sunday far outwiegh the 'threat' of death and dismemberment by R/C Aircraft or Helicopters. but the media loves a story. Since that Helicopter issue in the UK how many Roads deaths have there been and why don't the regulations on those stop the carnage?Dicks with Drones are another matter as most of the issues happen because they don't get used in line with the existing ANO's and four or more dicing blades and humans in close proximity is bound to end up in tears or worse.

author: chickadee
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 06:13:23 pm
content: Quote from: metrologist on March 03, 2020, 03:59:41 pmI don't think those pushing this "new world order" BS regulatory garbage actually believe that they will get to that future. It's really just that this has become a self feeding problem - The more regulations there are, the more taxpayer money is taken to pay more people to enforce said regulations. This is why projectile weapon ownership in the USA has more than doubled in the past 10 years. It's kind of scary to think about them all getting ready for a war, but at the same time, so exciting! Anything is possible

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 06:54:49 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on March 03, 2020, 12:47:09 pmAnything is dangerous under the right circumstances. People have been killed by baseballs, bicycles, sleds, all manner of sporting activities. Should we regulate bats and require a license to play baseball? What about archery? A bow and arrow can be a lethal weapon yet we did it at school in 7th grade physical education, there is no license needed and no rules I'm aware of on who can own or operate the equipment.RC models have for the most part been exceptionally safe. Injuries and even a few deaths have happened but when you look at the big picture it's about as safe as any outdoor leisure activity gets. Surely we have bigger fish to fry.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 07:05:38 pm
content: regulating to the extreme does not help with injuries. When people have no way in which to gain the skills required to do things safely the day they are faced with a situation they will just injure themselves or someone else as they have never been exposed to making such decisions.

author: chickadee
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 07:09:32 pm
content: Totally agree! In fact, I'll bet that regulating to the extreme can actually increase injuries - Such regulatory action can serve to prevent people from even understanding how injuries happen in the first place - Making them more susceptible to preventable accidents!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 07:10:42 pm
content: i got a BB gun. The first thing i did was accidentally shoot and damage my laptop screen as it misfired. I did not injure anyone other than my pocket. Now i am more careful. Should I ever have to handle an actual firearm which i would never do willingly I would be more aware of what i am doing.A work colleague told us of a trip to america in a previous job where they went to a shooting range and where pleased to find out that they could hire anything they wanted to play with. However one person soon had everyone throwing themselves to the floor when he started waving around his gun oblivious to the fact that he could accidentally shoot a colleague

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 07:15:44 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 03, 2020, 07:10:42 pmIt's surprisingly fun, if you enjoy shooting a BB gun you'd probably enjoy shooting a real gun, you can accurately hit a target much further away. It can get a bit expensive though, but small caliber low power stuff isn't too bad.Something I've always wanted to try is skeet shooting with a shotgun, my friend did it once and said it was great.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 07:29:02 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 03, 2020, 06:54:49 pmYou must live in one of the free states. My local jurisdiction's laws on projectiles basically states that any projectile launched by means of combustion, compressed gas, spring, or elastic band is illegal. There is also a provision for gravity fed catapults. No blow darts, sling-shots, you cannot even fire a spit wad through a straw.But we were about to talk about someone's bird fetish...

author: chickadee
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 07:31:49 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 03, 2020, 07:10:42 pmMost states have banned this practice for that very reason! You now need to demonstrate some competency and even a single mistake gets you banned! I almost got banned simply for not putting my safety glasses on *as* I was walking through the door into the range instead of before!!! They pulled me out and read me the riot act!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 07:36:17 pm
content: Well these guys were practically tourists, never handled weapons before. It was a few years ago.

author: chickadee
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2020, 07:41:40 pm
content: I feel like the "paranoid about liability" curve has been exponential the past few decades. Drones and RC aircraft will be victims, regardless of what this legislation does or does not mandate. Personal injury lawsuits seem to be initiated from a scratch, or less nowadays

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 01:43:17 am
content: Quote from: Simon on March 03, 2020, 07:05:38 pmMaybe an outright ban is needed to curb the RC death rate. Think of the children!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 02:04:18 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 03, 2020, 07:15:44 pmCome visit, skeet and DTL range here.Can be addictive as I found in my teens but it's one of those hobbies you can still remain competitive well into later life.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 01:20:52 pm
content: This gets real interesting, real fast. DJI published an analysis of who was on the 75 member invited "Industry Advisory Committee". Mostly telecom providers in the form of big cellular companies and law enforcement. Users and manufacturers were woefully under-represented.So the published pipe dream is that some service provider would 1. Charge public users only 5 USD per month, 2. Feed all this flight data down a pipeline (or two) to FAA and probably other agencies for free, 3. Retain thedata for six months, and yet have the level of customer service to make the drone delivery companies happy.So either some one is planning to spend in the government's black budget for what I'm going to call "Total Drone Awareness" or this was a pipedream of totally privatized art traffic control via the existing cell service, or I'm believing some one's preplanned spin on the project.And yet all nine or so "invited" service providers would also have to co-operate and share the data, while hopefully providing a "freemium" service to some minor users, which means there would have to be advertising or something to users, or selling the data which was supposed to be open source.Turns out, according to DJI, there is no budget for FAA to spend on establishing this system. FAA excluded ADS-B from the drone side of things which means either they don't want to overload ADS-B (Which is contractor operated) or clutter it with non safety of life traffic. But as I think of it, even at low level, it IS safety of life traffic.I've never known a Telecoms company to NOT turn a profit, even the government owned monopolies, so think what you may.Ouch... Again, Allegedly …. When I get time I'll publish the links to the docs I'm basing this post on.Which really raises the question, of "Where is the real time collision avoidance and flight guidance Hardware" going to set? Is the reason why government and apparently part of the industry wants totally open source everything data so that the flight planning is done at each operator's headquarters? A version of what the airline industry wants to go to with no airways routes, so all flights are direct for shortest distance? Who/ What/ When/ Where negotiates what UAS has the right of way?An even bigger question is how does a General Aviation aircraft or crop duster, or Ultralight or Medical Helo pilot "pop up" into the drone traffic from an uncontrolled airport? Right now in most uncontrolled airspace they just call blind on CTAF, a open traffic advisory frequency.I can't help but to have a little fun with this:"Press one for Espanol, Press two for English, Press three if your drone can't get permission to take off, Press four if a unwanted delivery drone is setting in your yard, Press five if your at the scene of a mid air collision or drone crash, Press Six to pay your Airspace Bill, your estimated wait time is Thirty Two Minutes" ATC support from an overseas call center is going to be a hoot, too...Steve

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 02:20:39 pm
content: So after posting that, I went to get ready for work, and the naughty child in me thought, "I should patent the new children's games, Block the Delivery Drone, Crash the Drone, Ride your bike into the landing drone, Brooms and sticks into props/thrusters, set your little sister under the drone, throw gravel at the drone, blind the drone camera with flashlights, swap delivery boxes when two drones land at once, etc."Juvenile court just might become very interesting.. " All rise for the case of Timmy S. age 7, vs Amazon"Then I thought, how will the drone avoid my car coming into the driveway?How will the astronomers get drone free zones for telescopes.Then it dawned on me, wait till the Home Owner's Associations get wind of this phenomena.A painful thought is advertising drones flying down my street loaded with LEDs.Is it really worth having drones screaming down with audible warnings going off at 2 AM?I'm really wondering how well thought out this idea really is.Steve

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 03:31:42 pm
content: No better thought out than the massively increasing numbers of satellites ruining the view of the stars..."Well, grandson, when I was younger, there were more stars visible than satellites! Oh how I miss those days" (as a coca cola advertisement flashes from space, right next to the big dipper)

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 03:46:48 pm
content: Quote from: angrybird on March 05, 2020, 03:31:42 pmWell, that's when you can actually see anything at night in the sky. In many areas these days, pollution (atmospheric and light pollution) kinda prevents from seeing anything much, even satellites.But you will see herds of flashing and beeping drones. How cool is that?Yup. Economic growth über alles.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 06:16:31 pm
content: I don't know that I've ever seen a satellite before. Doesn't seem like there could possibly be enough of them to interfere with seeing stars, the sky is pretty big. I think you'd need literally millions if not billions of satellites to form a fog of them.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 06:25:07 pm
content: I used to track big sats by eye at Boy Scout Camp. Now Scouts will soon be mostly girls and the light pollution is atrocious in the valley. But we can still see high magnitude stars where I live.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 06:36:10 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 05, 2020, 06:16:31 pmWow that's really surprising. I have seen the starlink chain buzz past in the middle of the city. If you get a chance with timing and weather where you are it is well worth the effort.

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 09:23:38 pm
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on March 05, 2020, 06:25:07 pmIt's hard thing to do but have you ever considered moving out of the country of commiefornia and into one of the many states in America?

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 10:25:18 pm
content: Quote from: chickadee on March 03, 2020, 07:31:49 pmMost states have banned this practice for that very reason! You now need to demonstrate some competency and even a single mistake gets you banned! I almost got banned simply for not putting my safety glasses on *as* I was walking through the door into the range instead of before!!! They pulled me out and read me the riot act!Back in the dim and distant past, I was at a shooting range that was run by a group of local police officers. I was shooting one night, and the numpty next to me stepped out of the shooting port with his revolver in hand and the cylinder closed. Next thing I knew, the Range Offer was in front of him with his own weapon drawn and pointed, asked him to open and empty cylinder and tossed him out with a lifetime ban. Stupid is as stupid does. Thankfully my only gaff over many years of gun ownership was missing charging a case when I was reloading. Bullet was a squib and got stuck in the barrel. The gentleman running the desk laughed at me while he gave me a cleaning rod to tap the bullet head out. Always triple checked the tray before seating the bullet heads after that.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 11:22:52 pm
content: I'm not a Kalifornian, atthough I like the northeren part of the state.I live in the conservative , somewhat hilly, "Bible Belt" portion of the Midwest. I can stand Southern Kali for about one week at a time and Northern Kali for about two weeks. I've been there a few times for work, and never got to visit any of the surplus electronics places. When I'm there I don't have time for the beach or anything fun. Because the traffic population is so dense in the South, its difficult to do repairs or research work without pre-packing in all possible tools and parts. Thus every minute in the lab is critical when I'm there.Only fun I've ever managed to have in Cali was one short emergency trip for parts to pre-Armageddon Fry's Electronics , a few priceless minutes of a backstage tour at Laserium's repair facility, and a short trip to inside the perimeter of Moffett field with a Nasa Burger at Mega Bites. I'll admit you can get good Mex-American food around there, though.Steve

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 11:28:24 pm
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on March 05, 2020, 01:20:52 pmThis model with talking to 'big' industry with commercial interests would be fine if they weren't setting rules for the casual R/C'er or Drone flier. In some ways calling for submissions is PR as the basic idea if not the bulk of the direction for the legislation would already be written. The fairly recent UK process was largely here it is now suck it up and by the way if you can be bothered drop us a note here so it can be filed that we listened ....If the FAA puts it out to Private to run and administer then good luck with affordability and any shred of privacy with your data/flight logs. Some things the government should remain in charge ofAny explanation or ideas what they plan to do with the more general R/C community yet or do they get lumped in still?

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 11:39:41 pm
content: In the plan as mentioned, general RC using home made gear is as difficult paperwork wise as building a real experimental aircraft and have to be flown at a designated flying field sanctioned by a community organization and approved by FAA. This field, called a FRIA, will be designated air space, temporary, and only active for a year or two until all UAS are replaced by type approved commercial models with the data transmission pre-installed . NO new FRIAs will be allowed after the first year and FRIAs can't move, but the administration may end them all permanently at ANY time. Grandpa's 0.60 Gas Powered RC biplane he willed you becomes a museum piece. Model kits with 50% commercial content can be built but must have approved electronics. No flying in your back yard without the license, registration, type approved craft and the full permissive action link, no engine start without electronic approval from the system. Estimated FAA approval process for a home built is 50 pages and two hundred fifty hours of work, using the estimate prepared for the Office of Management and Budget by the FAA. (All civilian facing government paperwork and forms must be approved by OMB, which is the executive branch's internal watchdog)Getting approval for a mom and pop business to make UAS/Models will be nearly impossible without a LOT of Money.NOTHING CAN START ENGINES WITHOUT ELECTRONIC APPROVAL EXCEPT FOR THE 255 gram toy class. If you can't get continual cellular internet access your screwed. Which makes large portions of the US unflyable.FAA assumes no model lasts longer then three years, and they cant be rebuilt, so everyone will be have to happy with commercial, type approved drones flown in a highly restricted manner with NO FPV, No Foamies built in a day and flown that evening. FAA seems to think nobody builds or repairs anything themselves.You can buy something under 255 grams as a toy at big box mart.Canada made it easy for now, the Minister for Transport granted a long term, temporary Exemption to Members of the Model Aeronautics Association of Canada under some tight, but acceptable, rules. Only for "TMA", traditional model aircraft flying, line of sight, manual, traditional RC with no camera, no Internal guidance or stabilization, not capable of flying autonomously to waypoints, or IMU.The advisory board for the US strongly suggested a carve out for small TMA under 400 foot altitude flying Line of Sight no more then 400 feet from the operator with no camera and no gyro, IMU or GPS waypoint capability, but the FAA bluntly nixed it in the NPRM, creating the FRIA instead.400 Foot horizontal limit comes from Law Enforcement, it is their best guess estimate how far they can associate an operator with a craft visually.There are two levels of Drone, one that will be damn hard to get and a lesser performing common model.SteveSteve

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 11:53:19 pm
content: So the 2nd R/C Diesel (Playboy Cabin old timer) powered aircraft I built about 30 years agoSeriously they have NFI about the average Aeromodeler. Most of my 30+ fleet of aircraft and helis are well over 5 years old and all have R/C gear in them with only the light weight indoor or DLG's running 2.4Gig the rest is on the Aussie 36Meg band. Where was the AMA in this discussion and why did they not have a seat at the table?As someone who flies Gliders a lot and in particular ridge soaring I don't fly at registered airfields so clearly that is ignored completely in the proposed regs?

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 12:07:32 am
content: AMA had a voting seat, but was grossly outnumbered, and I think, my personal opinion, totally blindsided by the NRPM. AMA is not a lobbying organization by charter, but found itself in the hot seat. I'm also betting some at AMA liked the idea of becoming the National community organizer, and probably thought they had that. After all, if AMA is the primary organization, they are going to grow like crazy in membership.What AMA has and has not done is hazy. All you have is the press releases and their videos/podcasts. They have been talking to FAA for a long time, but seem more concerned about getting waivers for the existing AMA fields to fly over the 400 foot limit.Ridge Soaring in the traditional sense will only be capable of flying if the ridge soaring craft is commercial and type approved. That question has been asked time and time again when I discuss this. I don't know how you soar thermals if your bird doesn't have powered flight under the new rules. Remember, the lock-out system is predicated on electronically preventing engine start. I don't even think they considered towing aloft or other odd but common stuff. Unless you can get a FRIA for the soaring location, and even then the FRIA times out at a maximum of 48 months.Lots of things, Helos, Ridge Soaring, Gliding, Blimp/Airship competition, Free Flight, combat, Indoor, scale, Giant Scale, are basically ignored, dead, not considered, not even thought of yet, or considered no longer relevant.The whole thing seems quadcopter oriented.Enjoy 308 pages of proposed rule:https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2019/12/31/2019-28100/remote-identification-of-unmanned-aircraft-systemsEvery time you see the word broadcast, please understand that recent public statements say broadcast will NOT be allowed as the primary.BTW, my friend's transponder on his full size plane is +/- 52 feet.I love this one, I quote:(b) Automatic Remote ID USS connection. From takeoff to landing, the unmanned aircraft system must automatically maintain a connection to the internet, when available, and must transmit the appropriate message elements through that internet connection to a Remote ID USS.(c) Time mark. The time mark message element must be synchronized with all other remote identification message elements.(d) Self-Testing and monitoring. (1) When the unmanned aircraft system is powered on, it must automatically test the remote identification functionality and notify the person manipulating the flight controls of the unmanned aircraft system of the result of the test. (2) The unmanned aircraft must not be able to take off if the remote identification equipment is not functional. (3) The unmanned aircraft system must continuously monitor the remote identification functionality from takeoff to landing and must provide notification of malfunction or failure to the person manipulating the flight controls of the unmanned aircraft system. (b) Automatic Remote ID USS connection. From takeoff to landing, the unmanned aircraft system must automatically maintain a connection to the internet, when available, and must transmit the appropriate message elements through that internet connection to a Remote ID USS. (c) Time mark. The time mark message element must be synchronized with all other remote identification message elements. (d) Self-Testing and monitoring. (1) When the unmanned aircraft system is powered on, it must automatically test the remote identification functionality and notify the person manipulating the flight controls of the unmanned aircraft system of the result of the test. (2) The unmanned aircraft must not be able to take off if the remote identification equipment is not functional. (3) The unmanned aircraft system must continuously monitor the remote identification functionality from takeoff to landing and must provide notification of malfunction or failure to the person manipulating the flight controls of the unmanned aircraft system. (e) Tamper resistance. The unmanned aircraft system must be designed and produced in a way that reduces the ability of a person to tamper with the remote identification functionality. (f) Connectivity. (1) The unmanned aircraft must not be able to take off unless it is connected to the internet and transmitting the message elements in §89.315 through that internet connection to a Remote ID USS. (2) The unmanned aircraft system must continuously monitor its connection to the internet and the unmanned aircraft system’s transmission of the remote identification message elements through that internet connection to a Remote ID USS. If the connection to the internet is lost or the unmanned aircraft system is no longer transmitting the remoteVerDate Sep<11>2014 18:02 Dec 30, 2019 Jkt 250001 PO 00000 Frm 00084 Fmt 4701 Sfmt 4702 E:\FR\FM\31DEP2.SGM 31DEP2 khammond on DSKJM1Z7X2PROD with PROPOSALS272521 Federal Register /Vol. 84, No. 250/Tuesday, December 31, 2019/Proposed Rulesidentification message elements to a Remote ID USS, the unmanned aircraft system must notify the person manipulating the flight controls of the unmanned aircraft system. (g) Error correction. The remote identification equipment must incorporate error correction in the transmission of the message elements in §89.315. (h) Interference considerations. The remote identification equipment must not interfere with other systems or equipment installed on the unmanned aircraft system, and other systems or equipment installed on the unmanned aircraft system must not interfere with the remote identification equipment. (i) Message transmission. The unmanned aircraft system must be capable of transmitting the message elements for limited remote identification unmanned aircraft systems in §89.315 through an internet connection to a Remote ID USS. (j) Message elements performance requirements. (1) The reported position of the control station must be accurate to within 100 feet of the true position, with 95 percent probability. (2) The reported barometric pressure altitude of the control station must be accurate to within 20 feet of the true barometric pressure altitude for pressure altitudes ranging from 0 to 10,000 feet. (3) The unmanned aircraft system must transmit the latitude, longitude, and barometric pressure altitude of the control station no later than 1.0 second from the time of measurement to the time of transmission. (4) The unmanned aircraft system must transmit the message elements at a rate of at least 1 message per second. (k) Cybersecurity. The unmanned aircraft system must incorporate cybersecurity protections for the transmission of the message elements in §89.315. (l) Range limitation. The unmanned aircraft must be designed to operate no more than 400 feet from its control station. (m) Broadcast limitation. The unmanned aircraft cannot broadcast any of the remote identification message elements identified in §89.305 or §89.315.(e) Tamper resistance. The unmanned aircraft system must be designed and produced in a way that reduces the ability of a person to tamper with the remote identification functionality. (f) Connectivity. (1) The unmanned aircraft must not be able to take off unless it is connected to the internet and transmitting the message elements in §89.315 through that internet connection to a Remote ID USS. (2) The unmanned aircraft system must continuously monitor its connection to the internet and the unmanned aircraft system’s transmission of the remote identification message elements through that internet connection to a Remote ID USS. If the connection to the internet is lost or the unmanned aircraft system is no longer transmitting the remoteVerDate Sep<11>2014 18:02 Dec 30, 2019 Jkt 250001 PO 00000 Frm 00084 Fmt 4701 Sfmt 4702 E:\FR\FM\31DEP2.SGM 31DEP2 khammond on DSKJM1Z7X2PROD with PROPOSALS272521 Federal Register /Vol. 84, No. 250/Tuesday, December 31, 2019/Proposed Rulesidentification message elements to a Remote ID USS, the unmanned aircraft system must notify the person manipulating the flight controls of the unmanned aircraft system.(g) Error correction. The remote identification equipment must incorporate error correction in the transmission of the message elements in §89.315. (h) Interference considerations. The remote identification equipment must not interfere with other systems or equipment installed on the unmanned aircraft system, and other systems or equipment installed on the unmanned aircraft system must not interfere with the remote identification equipment. (i) Message transmission. The unmanned aircraft system must be capable of transmitting the message elements for limited remote identification unmanned aircraft systems in §89.315 through an internet connection to a Remote ID USS. (j) Message elements performance requirements. (1) The reported position of the control station must be accurate to within 100 feet of the true position, with 95 percent probability. (2) The reported barometric pressure altitude of the control station must be accurate to within 20 feet of the true barometric pressure altitude for pressure altitudes ranging from 0 to 10,000 feet. (3) The unmanned aircraft system must transmit the latitude, longitude, and barometric pressure altitude of the control station no later than 1.0 second from the time of measurement to the time of transmission. (4) The unmanned aircraft system must transmit the message elements at a rate of at least 1 message per second. (k) Cybersecurity. The unmanned aircraft system must incorporate cybersecurity protections for the transmission of the message elements in §89.315. (l) Range limitation. The unmanned aircraft must be designed to operate no more than 400 feet from its control station. (m) Broadcast limitation. The unmanned aircraft cannot broadcast any of the remote identification message elements identified in §89.305 or §89.315. "End Quote..Steve

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 12:21:49 am
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on March 05, 2020, 11:39:41 pmSteve,You're failing to account for the rural areas, which is a majority of the USA. People do and will continue to fly whatever they want there, no matter what the regulation. Interfering with them risks a serious gunfight. This is not tongue in cheek. The country folk are ready to start shooting over all the bureacracy and all the bureaucrats need to do is push them a little bit and we will be there. These regs will only affect the cities.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 12:35:41 am
content: I have a hard time seeing gunfights erupt over toy airplanes, if it does it's likely to not end well. The rural areas have most of the land area but a large majority of the populations live on the coasts.For all the talk about freedoms I don't really see it. The difference is not so much how much you're allowed to do but which things someone is gonna tell you not to do. In some states the government it will practically ruin your whole life over a few ounces of weed or some other silly thing someone might try to do in the privacy of their own home. Authoritarian pricks whose purpose in life is to tell other people how to live and whose greatest fear seems to be that somebody somewhere is enjoying themselves exist everywhere and across the political spectrum.

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 12:46:22 am
content: You need to check out a rural area, it's not at all what you think... Everyone with a pulse is done with the regulation and insanity and are just waiting for what many people believe is inevitable - Civil war #2, reset things back to the way they used to be. Just imagine the USA rural areas in 2020 as a bunch of people with loaded AR15's or other high power pistols in their cars, politely driving down the road, waving at their neighbors and ready for anything... I have close connections in multiple states, it's not a joke... Even I carry a takedown AR15 pistol with me in most states (except commiefornia!), its case is the size of a normal 15" laptop and it snaps together in about 3 seconds... Everyone seems to be waiting for something, it's going to be a very exciting decade

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 01:11:53 am
content: Mr Nutfinch,Please leave the provocative speech off of EEVBLOG.Some one, some how, is going to have to balance out this proposal, once its issued. Either in the Houses of Congress, or in the Courts. I'm not going to endorse the concept of drawing a gun over the right to fly. The way that reform traditionally starts in this here republic is to get citizens to exercise their rights to make the system work. That starts with informing like minded people when your upset with a proposed rule.While you have your right to free speech, shooting up someone so you can fly a drone or RC craft is insane. Arguing on this thread is helping me craft my reply to the proposed regulation via legit means, such as contacting my legislators.The common issue with Aviation law is it becomes global, quickly. This is NOT just a US problem. As the FAA, CAA, Canada's DOT, CASA goes, so goes the rest of the world.Outside of the five "cousins" nations, mentioning potential use of a firearm on the net gets you hauled off to jail.Edit:Up until recently, my state used the English Common Law on encroachments, which is centuries old and deals mainly with trees,Its quite practical. My neighbors own some big trees with long branches. I can trim them to the property line and not a scruple over, but nor can I harm the tree. But it no longer is "Cuius est solum, eius est usque ad coelum et ad inferos" in the US.Steve

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 01:29:06 am
content: Hello there Mr. Namecaller!If you'd put on your reading glasses, you'd see quite clearly that I am not advocating for anything - I am simply pointing out that the regulation does not matter when half the population ignores it!"Outside of the five "cousins" nations, mentioning potential use of a firearm on the net gets you hauled off to jail. " -> You are legitamately trolling with this comment, there are entire forums dedicated to discussing shooting on the internet. Get back under your bridge!Bottom line, you can expect this regulation to move forward with little logic or reason behind it, just like last time, half the country will ignore it, chaos will ensue, it will be modified in some way to appease a few of the larger groups of complainers, and meanwhile "out in the country" people will be doing whatever they want

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 01:37:20 am
content: Also ignored in the Regs and Techno waffle (at least in the bit you posted) is that large slabs of the Middle of the USA and even some of the less densely populated areas and if heaven forbid it arrives in Oz we simply don't have Mobile Reception so unless the proposed big brother system want to include Musk Linkfor free you can't fly.I only have to go 20-30km from here and there is large chunks of land with zero 3 or 4G coverage and I am in a fairly well populated Rural/urban coastal area.As you say it is linked to a motor lockout but I guess that could be any channel without to much issue.

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 01:47:20 am
content: Read about the cellular tower vandalism occuring in some areas in the USA. This 5G thing has certain groups going off their rockers and it would appear that some are assuming that any cell tower is a 5G tower. Many of the rural areas that *do* have cell service are served by a single tower! These go down after thunderstorms, snow storms, when 5G vandals in foil hats strike...These FAA regulations are meaningless and only people in the cities are going to obey them, and even that is questionable given the amount of crime in every major city. Freaking out over news like this just isn't worth it, there are so many federal laws in the USA that every American is said to commit at least 3 serious crimes per day without even realizing it. Read the book, "3 felonies a day", this is modern reality

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 02:00:47 am
content: Seriously get off the 'we will ignore the law and do what we like in the country'if you don't want to seriously engage in the subject take your noise and self amusement elsewhere. Breaching FAA regulations potentially kills humans in full sized aviation when UAV fliers break them this is not something to joke about. This is in part why the model section has existed in relative harmony with full sized for so long until the cheap toys arrived in the last few years.Do you actually fly R/C or own a drone?

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 02:12:32 am
content: Ok you are still missing the point. People flying drones over their property and R/C aircraft in all the places they've been flying them since the advent of this hobby isn't going to kill anyone. It isn't a danger and never has been. I am not advocating for any danger here. If you fly your plan over my property when I'm flying my R/C helicopter over my property, that is your problem, not mine.This is just bureaucrats doing what bureaucrats do - They try to justify their jobs by continually churning out regulations. People in the enforcement zones (i.e. metropolitan areas, around airports, etc) will be subject to them. People in the country will do what they have always done no matter what the outcome, this is a universal truth and there is nothing you can do about it. Life goes on.And yes, I have a few R/C helicopter, a 30 size nitro that terrifies me and various electric models. I had a few planes a long time ago but the helis are so much more fun. They are just periodic entertainment nowadays, and I'll keep flying them as I always have no matter what happens with these rules, just like everyone else

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 02:17:21 am
content: Quote from: angrybird on March 06, 2020, 01:47:20 amDo you seriously want a civil war over something so minor? I would bet that the result of such a catastrophe would be a lot of needless bloodshed with the ultimate result being those who started it being put in their place real quick and further alienated from the educated, affluent and highly populated coasts that already roll their eyes at the stereotypical ignorant hicks that the rest of the world envisions when they think of America. The clock is never getting set back to the past even though there are some aspects I think were better then than now and it's delusional to think otherwise.Vandalizing cell towers based on bizarre paranoia does nothing to help the cause I assure you and bolsters the stereotype of a bunch of backwoods ignorant boobs. It's not doing any favors for all the good and sensible people who live there, at least the ones who didn't flee to the coasts. The same idiots vandalizing cell towers are probably moaning about the lack of reception. Meanwhile the rest of the country which makes most of the money and props up the rest is becoming more happy to leave the other parts behind as they gleefully slide further into irrelevance.

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 02:23:21 am
content: James that is not my point. The point is that the American people have become so fed up with the federal level insanity that all of this regulation nonsense is totally ignored - That is the point!The regulation will be ignored.While it is likely true that half the country (or more!) is ready for war, I am not implying in any way that drone regulations will start it! I am just pointing out that federal regulations like this pushed themselves below the "noise floor" for most people quite some time ago. Are you an American? I'll bet you are committing a life in prison worth of federal crimes every day, and you don't even know it - Look up this book I referenced - It is absolutely true!I totally agree that vandalizing cell towers does nothing, but I don't think it is backwoods boobs doing it - I think it is these crazy fringe groups that also believe that they can sense "EMF" from power lines, that it is keeping them up at night, causing their insanity, etc - Literally the "tin foil hat" group. Look up "EMF blockers" on google - People buy into this stuff hook, line and sinker!

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 02:30:15 am
content: On a much calmer note, I am on the verge of abandoning RC model flying as a hobby. While I have loved it since I was in grade school, and actively participated for much of that time it doesn't seem to have any real future. I will miss it, but I am tired of fighting an uphill, apparently unwinnable battle.It is clear to me from the actions over the last decade that the professional operators in the airspace see model airplanes as hazard with no redeeming qualities, and will keep pressure on until it is eliminated. While some may blame these increases in regulation on crazy drone fliers, I believe that is only something that provided easy fodder, not the causative event.Utility inspectors, air ambulance services, police air vehicles and the like have plenty to think about without worrying about model airplane club locations, backyard flyers and the like. Not surprisingly they value their own lives highly, and unless they are participants in the hobby don't see any balancing value.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 02:56:34 am
content: Quote from: angrybird on March 06, 2020, 02:12:32 amYour property as explained earlier in this thread ceases above the ground. Willfully ignoring for example the height limit (think it is still 300' in the USA?) places you into an area where full sized aviation happens. While this is exceedingly rare and the sky is huge relative to any full sized aircraft the rules are there for a reason.In Oz for MAAA based events off registered Airfields we can for example apply for a NOTAM for an increased height limit over an area for Glider events. This still doesn't mean we don't give way to full sized if one comes across our area just there is a warning issued and published at the Airfields in the area.We have had examples of dicks with both Drones and even well before that R/C planes flying in parks under the flightpaths of major airports. Regulations matter for everyone always everywhere.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 03:02:17 am
content: I intend to keep flying, however I might be pushed toward smaller and lighter planes that are exempt from the regulations. I've had a lot of fun flying micro stuff and now that brushless power is becoming more common in micros they are getting a lot better to deal with. Fortunately when most people hear the word "drone" they think multirotors, meanwhile I often carry cameras on fixed wing planes and nobody bats an eye.I also think the drone craze has been fading. For a while they were all the rage and constantly in the news but I don't remember the last time I read of a drone incident in the news and the millions of spying eyes in every suburban neighborhood that everyone was fretting about don't seem to have materialized.I hear people complaining about the ready to fly planes that enable anyone to participate but honestly we very much needed those. Without them RC flying was all but dead, current generations have a vast range of options for entertainment and I'm more than happy to see anyone new join the hobby. Without new blood and evolving technology the hobby will die and the places I fly will be replaced by housing developments. I started out flying foamies and have since built a pile of kit and scratchbuilt planes. Had my only option been painstakingly building a plane out of balsa sticks I likely never would have started.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 03:28:03 am
content: Any of my comments about RTF dills is about the behavior of the owners not a complaint about the productThe biggest issue is the ready access and the lack of perceived 'need' of the AMA or MAAA in our case as the time invested in building is more or less nil and the cost is low. This has led to a lack of general knowledge by the average user of the FAA (CASA in Oz) regs.My most often flown plane is a Foamy and slope bashing with foam allows you to pick a rock or a bush and call it a landing area

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 03:33:06 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on March 06, 2020, 02:56:34 amThat is not the point. I have repeatedly stated I am talking about "out in the country" - Rural areas - Which is most of the USA. If you fly a drone in the country over someone else's property, it gets shot down. If someone out there wants to fly whatever they want to fly over their own property, they do it. This is just the way it is, the way it has always been, the way it will always be. You do not tell American country folk that their property "ceases above the ground". They have heard that before, and they will simply laugh at you. I am not talking about flying something thousands of feet in the air, you can't see that far. I am talking about R/C planes, model rockets (this is still quite popular, some of these do probably go a thousand feet up), things that people do for fun enjoying their place in the country.Don't you have rural areas in Australia too? I would bet it is the same way out there. Again, I am not talking about obviously unreasonable things like flying around airports and such - People who do those things are city dimwits who have too much free time on their hands. I am talking about people on their private property doing what they do every day.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 03:59:57 am
content: That is the point exactly the wild west only exists in the mind. There is something about being a 'nation of laws and not men' that is fact and a matter of the time we now live in. Keep the Gun nut baggery out of this thread too it has had more than plenty of exposure already!You can not argue it is ok 'because of x location' there is current law and breaking it is a Federal offence regardless of fairly much whatever western country you live in. Go fly over a government building or the wrong place in some countries elsewhere they will shoot you first or lock you up and throw away the key.Anyone who breaches those current fairly open rules and in so doing puts my hobby at risk of increased regulation or limits on it because of their actions deserves a kicking be that written or verbal. This is partly why the USA is now where it is due to dicks with drones with no regard for the rules.

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 04:34:28 am
content: No one is flying drones over government buildings. Again, I am talking about people in the country minding their own business!!!The USA (and I believe most other developed nations) are far past "nation of laws, not men". If you come to America, you will inadvertently commit several federal "offenses" per day without even trying. There are literally millions of laws and no one person can even comprehend a fraction of them.The difference between the USA and other countries is that in the USA, people will actually do something about it. This takes many forms. You can call it "civil disobedience" when I disable the faulty emission device on my older car after it malfunctions. You can call it the same when I rig the PCM to make the emissions inspectors think it still works and they give me a pass. You can call it the same when people ignore these new FAA "regulations" and keep on flying their R/C stuff over their property without any internet connection or tracking hardware. Is it really "civil disobedience" though? Or is it just rejection of tyranny? The difference in the USA is that this "disobedience" is commonplace due to how many people have recognized the tyranny, and no enforcement team in the USA is suicidal enough to go out into the country and start enforcing these regulations. But this isn't even my point!I keep having to go back to my original point that I am arguing for. In the country, people will do whatever they want, and everything will be fine. I'll bet in Australia, even if something like this is passed, you can go out in the bush and fly your R/C aircraft without a problem and no one will bother you about it. Everyone is freaking out about this idiotic regulation as if the massive expanse of rural land out there is just going to dissapear. It will still be there! I promise!!!

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 12:14:04 pm
content: I work at an educational institution teaching future engineers. I can't avoid flying over government land.:-). Therefore I need to try to shape the regulations to avoid any problems in the first place.As much as I would like to move some things behind closed doors off campus, it just doesn't work that way. The indirect impact of modal aviation in my industry is huge.Steve

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 12:27:25 pm
content: Quote from: angrybird on March 06, 2020, 04:34:28 amYour points all rely on total and willfully ignoring of the Law because of 'reasons'. Just because you say it is ok for you does it also make it ok for a person 1 mile closer to X or one mile away from X. No it doesn't if you break the Law within the jurisdiction of that law you are conducting an Illegal Act. If you 'get away with it' is completely irrelevant.There is Zero point in engaging further in this train of discussion as it relies on the premise of illegal behavior against any law and is clearly not on topic. Ranting about tyranny and other Laws you don't like is also off topic and if you continue extend on that the results should be known to you by now.

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 01:37:54 pm
content: This coming from a guy on a forum where people openly endorse and participate in stealing tens of thousands of dollars of paid options from test equipment and justify it by saying "WELL IT WAS ALREADY THERE, SORT OF, AND WE DECIDED THE STEALING LAWS DON'T SEEM TO APPLY HERE PROBABLY MAYBE"Checking, sir! Yes! The pot is black, sir! Reports are that it just called a kettle the same! Over!I can't help you reason through this, but it is reality, and you need to stop rocking back and forth in that corner and just deal with itOnce these regulations move forward I'll post a video of me flying my old 30 scale heli in a public park, sans registration

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 01:50:42 pm
content: Quote from: angrybird on March 06, 2020, 01:37:54 pmThe question is, do you agree or disagree with above statement ?

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 02:01:22 pm
content: There is an obvious difference between flying your R/C helicopter over your private property against "regulation", and stealing someone else's work, I'm not sure what you're trying to do here.I would be very unhappy if someone stole my work, but it appears that the test equipment manufacturers are tolerating it, likely because the vast majority of their revenue comes from corporate/business customers who wouldn't do this. That doesn't change the fact that it is stealing, so when people brag about doing this, they need to be honest about it and say I STOLE IT.Now... For the people hacking their instruments and then selling them in that state... I would find it quite entertaining if one of these people were prosecuted for stealing it

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 02:04:48 pm
content: Quote from: angrybird on March 06, 2020, 02:01:22 pmStill vague, what is the real specific example ? If you don't mind.

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 02:09:17 pm
content: The real specific example of what?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 02:11:41 pm
content: Quote from: angrybird on March 06, 2020, 02:09:17 pmAbout the "stealing" that you said ...

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 02:14:54 pm
content: Ahh, ok.So there are these oscilloscopes made by Rigol, Agilent, Siglent, and the list goes on - You should look at the threads about hacking them.Same for products from FLIR, and more I'm sure.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 02:16:56 pm
content: Quote from: angrybird on March 06, 2020, 02:14:54 pmSo are you saying that people in this forum, and maybe the owner too endorse it, and you sounds like you are disagree ?Just answer yes or no, as simple as that.

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 02:19:00 pm
content: BravoV, I'm sorry that we are having trouble communicating, I don't know what to say.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 02:19:20 pm
content: Quote from: angrybird on March 06, 2020, 02:19:00 pmThen STFU ...

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 02:20:34 pm
content: Uhhh....No coffee today?

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 03:46:00 pm
content: Quote from: angrybird on March 06, 2020, 01:37:54 pmYou realize that you are a guy on the same forum, right? And I fail to see the relevance of your point.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 06:14:44 pm
content: Quote from: angrybird on March 06, 2020, 02:01:22 pmIt's not stealing.Theft deprives the rightful owner of property. Unlocking an option you're not going to buy is not theft, it has not taken anything from the owner. Is it 100% ethical? Maybe not, but it's not theft.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 06:26:31 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 06, 2020, 06:14:44 pmYeah, this is the whole issue with DRM in general, and software in particular. You're depriving the author/company of *potential* revenue. If you consider the notion of intellectual property, then one could extend the concept of theft to IP, although it's a very grey area, with the possible damage coming from this "theft" being only *potential*, and not factual. A big mess.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 06:30:31 pm
content: Some piracy absolutely does deprive somebody of potential revenue, but a lot of it is a huge stretch to even call it potential. Is a hobbyist going to scrape up $5k for that option they unlocked on an old higher end scope? Is an individual screwing around going to cough up $20k for some piece of software they downloaded a cracked version of to play with? Can anyone say with a straight face that any of the teenagers with 50,000 mp3s in their music library would have dropped $50k on music?It's only potential revenue if it's something someone was realistically going to purchase but pirated instead. At that point it's still piracy, not theft.If I'm considering buying a piece of gear but decide to build my own or buy a used one is that theft? Have I deprived the seller I was considering of potential revenue by not purchasing something I was considering buying?

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 03:51:01 am
content: Quote from: metrologist on March 06, 2020, 03:46:00 pmIt seems that you aren't the only one who didn't see my point... People on this forum seem to have trouble reasoning through things, I think there is a language barrier or something, I keep trying.1) My original argument: Regulation is irrelevant because people all over will ignore it and nothing will happen because they aren't hurting anyone now and they won't be hurting anyone later. What you do on your private property is your business etc.2) My follow-up point after people go wacko about "breaking the law": All you guys on here love stealing IP from companies, you call it "hacking" when you steal an option which the company only ever intended to sell for money but you found a way to get it for free.The response to that argument? WHERE DO YOU STAND YOU ARE A GUY ON THIS FORUM TOOWhy does it matter where I stand??? Do you not understand the point? Why are you having trouble reasoning through this? What I am saying is that "breaking the law" on my private property does nothing to noone and nothing comes from it. But you guys are not only stealing this IP (i.e. "breaking the law"), you're finding a million ridiculous reasons to tell yourself that it isn't stealing, when that is exactly what it is. You stole something that you were supposed to pay for, by hacking.Where do I stand? I enjoy hacking things, but because I am not delusional like the people on this forum apparently are, I acknowledge fully that if I activate such an option like these so-called "hacks", I am STEALING something that a company, which employs other humans like me, only ever meant to sell for money which it uses to pay the other humans like me.These companies try to save money by including all options in the BOM and activating them with codes, which is an effort to reduce overall cost in order to pass cost savings on to the customer, increase revenue for the investor and increase compensation for the employee. And people on this forum make incredulous, completely idiotic statements calling the product "crippled" and you are just "un-crippling it" to get something that you deseved in the first place - This kind of mentality belongs at a factory job taping boxes together - Total lack of reasoning ability.You want to know the real reason you don't get prosecuted for it? Because historically, your money as a hobbyist is next tonothingto these test equipment companies. A vast majority of their profit comes from corporations, government entities and the like. If these corporations and government entities were "un-crippling" their machines, they would end up paying the price - It would surely be in civil court (in fact, it would never go to court, they would just get a letter, pay the money they oew and get a nice slap on the wrist). The reason these companies choose not to come after you as an individual is because you are basically nothing to them. If you try to sell "un-crippled" equipment that you hacked, they almost surely will, and if you don't back down you could ultimately be charged with a crime, and even if you don't agree with everything else I said, this alone proves that it is stealing. If you sell it, you are selling stolen property, and I know some people on here have gotten those letters, so don't play ignorant on that one.Rant over. I don't care about hacking things, do it all you want, just call it what it is when you activate a paid option that you didn't pay for - Stealing. If you aren't calling it, that, you're a fool and you are not being honest with yourself.Ok thread back on track now... Maybe I should create a separate thread for the above

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 04:49:09 am
content: Quote from: angrybird on March 07, 2020, 03:51:01 amI still do not see therelevanceof your point because it has no basis. You paint every member of this forum with the same brush, and that is unwarranted. You hold the actions of a few individuals as justification for your disregard of law, and with no apparent bounds. To what extent do you apply this deranged logic?

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 05:25:54 am
content: Quote from: metrologist on March 07, 2020, 04:49:09 amNo basis? So you didn't read my post?Paint every member with the same brush? That is certainly not the case nor was it the intent, stop trying to distract with nonsense like this.My disregard of law? Holding others as justification? No bounds? What are you talking about? Have you read anything that I posted? Your statements indicate that you have not!I am guessing that my post didn't make you feel warm and fuzzy, which is what you desperately want and need, but you couldn't come up with any valid argument to make against it, so instead you're trying to deflect with broad, tangential accusations, finished off with an attempt to label me as "deranged". Is that it?I don't even know what to say! Please learn to reason.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 10:22:11 am
content: Quote from: angrybird on March 07, 2020, 05:25:54 amPlease take a leaf out of your own book! this topic is not about product haking! please stick to the topic.

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 03:03:30 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 07, 2020, 10:22:11 amHi there, "mod", please admit that your post was only to shill your website. Reported.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 03:07:52 pm
content: It's funny that as soon as a user has a problem they start accusing me of being a shill. I am Daves UK based distributor! i even had a user that was banned send me a message through ebay about the conspiracy of me banning him because i somehow benefit from my online shop.With you carrying off I have no need to "shill". Since you joined this forum I have had to be very much more active than I usually am! So the answer to me no longer "shilling" is actually to ban you!

author: angrybird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 03:20:14 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 07, 2020, 03:07:52 pm**facepalm*You just wrote a big defense on yourself, took another jab at me, and did nothing to get the thread back on track despite claiming to want this... And you call yourself a mod?I realize "mods" like to feel tough when they "ban" people but when you can create another account in 2 minutes, it's not actually "banning", it's called "flexing" and people generally laugh at it.Go away, internet tough guy. Or shill again, your choice...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 03:22:44 pm
content: Sorted!

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 05:20:25 pm
content: Just don't stretch the Rubber to tight without any lube when windingNo Data, No Control and just done for the love of flight.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 05:29:54 pm
content: Rubberband in a can.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 05:37:31 pm
content: Why do I have a feeling that man Angrybird gets paid to disrupt threads like mine.Steve

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 05:38:02 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on March 07, 2020, 05:29:54 pmCloser than you knowMy Rubber motors and bulk rubber was kept in a black plastic bag inside a coffee tin with a little talc on them. Take one or two out the day before use and drop it into the lube jar and head out to fly.The carnage yielded on Tissue and Balsa by an exploding rubber motor being wound is truly amazing so best avoided

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 05:45:52 pm
content: No censorship but we are trying to stay on topic. the topic was RC rules in the US, not the ethics of hacking equipment.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 06:02:54 pm
content: Quote from: beanflying on March 07, 2020, 05:38:02 pmI know it's not on topic, but it would be interesting to see some pictures of your planes, even in a new thread. I played a bit with my own balsa doped tissue planes. The early ones were rubber band powered. I had a book on RC controlling a rubber band powered plane. The controls were also rubber powered. Something more like a stepper motor with 90 degree steps. I wanted to try and build something like that but it was beyond my skill level at the time.The last one I started to build was a large glider. Achilla or something like that. I gave it to the kid nextdoor who finished the project and flew it.I have a brother who used to play a lot with model planes. The most impressive one I remember was where he had made a small motor for one. I think he teaches classes now.Sorry for the off topic posts. Feel free to delete them as needed.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 06:18:19 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 07, 2020, 05:45:52 pmWhile some was way off base it is an interesting glimpse at the mindset of the law doesn't apply to me because..... what XYZ laws laws over here transference arguments make it ok for me to break this lawThis is in part why the Rules are being clamped down on. Some of the issues are caused by people who are genuinely ignorant of current law and some are caused by dills breaking them because of arrogance or the 'law is an ass'. Stack this with media driven hysteria about 'drones', commercial lobbyists for industry and you get casual users trying to enjoy their hobby or pastime being lumbered with heavy handed legislation.

author: RiffRaff
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 06:22:43 pm
content: These regulations aren't a response to any perceived "breaking of laws". They are a response to a market which many believe could become massive, which means huge regulatory/licensing fee revenue for governments, private entities, etc and if said growth occurs, also means a big need for coordination in populated metropolitan areas. Imagine delivery drones flying all over new york city with no regulations. On the other hand, the regs are rather irrelevant in low population areas. In the end, one thing is for sure - It's all about money!

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 06:26:09 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on March 07, 2020, 06:02:54 pmhttp://www.rcgroups.com/forums/index.phpis the place to go. The problem with creating a thread here is is has the potential to rival the TEA one in it's rambles and breadth.The control system you are thinking of is an escarpment radio control system. They are before my time but there is still some information out there on them.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 08:26:59 pm
content: Quote from: beanflying on March 07, 2020, 06:26:09 pmAny links to yours specifically? Just curious to see what members are building. Some of the balsa planes are works of art.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 10:32:38 pm
content: Sorry to the topic but a few of mine as @joe asked to peek. I mainly fly performance F3B and F3J gliders and performance Electrics but a couple of my older Balsa Builds in the middle. The high wing Cabin model is just a great no stress toy to give others a go at flying and it can be flown anywhere without annoying the natives around a local park. The old Gryphon Glider in the middle I built over 25 years ago and is still a favourite toy.The Glider Left is for Dynamic soaring and the Electric Pylon Racer far right tops out over 300km/hr

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 01:04:34 am
content: Our Farm Bureau just announced that they are very upset that farmers. And the agriculture mega industry did not have a seat at the planning table. They also proclaim that 29% of US farms do not have sufficient internet access to run with the program. Farmers love drones for crop survey.Once the construction and survey folks wake up to this, my bet is all hell breaks loose with the K Street Lobbyists getting involved.Ouch.Steve

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 01:15:05 am
content: This is worth linking to as wellhttps://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/02/new-faa-drone-rule-is-a-giant-middle-finger-to-aviation-hobbyists/as is having a read through the comments section.This unfortunately is how the media (and some dills) has driven perception in a lot of cases. The AMA not being on the front foot in the mainstream media as a go to source for information can not of helped.Quote

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 01:19:09 am
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on March 08, 2020, 01:04:34 amNo surprises there.Gubbermint bureaucraps evolving draconian laws have no idea of emerging technologies.Site surveys, real estate, bonafide professional filming, agriculture and a host of other legitimate uses need all be permitted in legislation.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 03:01:06 am
content: Double ouch:https://focustaiwan.tw/society/202003010006Fine of about 1000$ for failure to license in Taiwan.Steve

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 06:48:12 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 29, 2020, 06:47:34 amThis could be on the back of the "drone" syndrome ?In the UK airports have been closed due to illegal drone activity near them.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 08:04:44 am
content: Not the USA I know but I saw tonight on public free to air TV a CASA (Aussie FAA equivelent) this add below. Seems they have just launched a major awareness campaignPlenty more here at this linkhttps://www.youtube.com/user/CASABriefing/videosHope the FAA takes a look at this as an option rather than punitive measures.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 08:02:07 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on March 08, 2020, 06:48:12 amWas it ever even confirmed to be true? I recall several cases somewhere of alleged drone sightings by pilots, even some who claimed they spotted them at high altitudes where I find it extremely unlikely that any kind of consumer drone is going to manage to go. I'm also highly skeptical of the ability for a human pilot to spot one as they cruise along at several hundred mph. I've heard it said that drone sightings are going to replace UFO sightings, the mind is a strange thing and sometimes people see what they want to see. Pilots have reported seeing unidentified objects in the sky for as long as there have been pilots.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 10:32:33 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 08, 2020, 08:02:07 pmIt was a pilot, Kenneth Arnold, who mistook a flight of birds for some "advanced military craft". He described their flight pattern as "like saucers skipping over water". The local paper printed the headline "Supersonic Flying Saucers Sighted by Idaho Pilot" and thus was created the modern "UFO" phenomenon.I'm a little skeptical that the "lights in the sky" around UK airports were really drones. Maybe some were. Some eye witnesses reported seeing lights near the airport - they were on tower cranes a mile away.The nature of the "UFO flap" is that once people have the idea in their head, they see what they are thinking. A light in the sky conveys the least amount of visual information of the source as it is possible to get - any less and you wouldn't detect it at all. Size, distance, shape can be impossible to determine. Many times people have reported The Moon as a UFO, I mean come on!

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2020, 04:17:19 pm
content: I note several obvious EEVBLOGGERs commented. Thank You, Especially the one from Germany, that was touching and practical.Next set of comment review down the road, is OOP , or Operations Over People, I'll update the thread as often as possible.I hate drones, I'll be honest, I find them annoying. However my local Microcenter just had a closeout or loss lead sale on one model for 20$, NO GPS, which is fine with me, and it flies beautifully. Consider that purchase last week, a symbolic protest. Under 250 grams... I'll need to paint it with some markings, as it is symmetrical, uniformly colored, and no nav LEDs for orientation, which drives me nuts, as I'm used to watching wings. Its time to bolt on some LEDs, too. As the TX is not programmable, I'll have to relearn what stick does what.I at least want to understand what the other flyers want so as to reach compromise and understanding. Steve

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2020, 12:00:13 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on March 08, 2020, 10:32:33 pmI have seen quite a few "UFOs". I sure didn't know what they were. None has convinced me that it was worth revealing my ignorance by sharing my sightings. Some became identified FOs after further observation or thought and research. One of the most interesting was a night viewing of a light pattern that went across the sky silently. The angular rate was higher than satellite transits, but there was no noise. I now believe that it was a high altitude (15-20 km) SR-71 transit, based on speed, my location and other cues. Others became identified non-flying objects (spots on a windshield, reflections and such.) There remain several in the unidentified category, but I am pretty sure they aren't alien spacecraft, or even crazy secret terrestrial aircraft. If you watch the sky much you see a lot of strange things.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2020, 12:08:21 am
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on March 10, 2020, 04:17:19 pmIMHO the only thing that makes multirotors fun is FPV. Either racing or just cruising around, it's about the closest you can get to actually flying without leaving the ground. I've built a couple and enjoyed them but I enjoy fixed wing a lot more. My brain just isn't good at processing multi-axis flight.