Do we have any robotics engineers here? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Tris20
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2013, 03:06:08 pm
content: The reason I ask is that I'm looking ahead a few years and one of the things that has crossed my mind is doing a masters in robotics. So, my questions to you all are:What was your degree in (If applicable)?What kind of work do you do on a daily basis?How long did it take for you to get to your current position?Are there any books that you would class as essential reading?What would you have done differently on your path to being a robotics engineer?And of course: Is it as fun as it looks?

author: lgbeno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2013, 04:09:28 pm
content: I've done a decent amount of robotics, designing motion control electronics for an automated X-Ray Radiography room. Then more recently I was the programmer for a Fanuc LR-Mate robotic assembly cell that assembled pressure regulators.I'll try to give you my 2 cents.Quote from: Tris20 on August 08, 2013, 03:06:08 pmI have a BS in Electrical Engineering and have taken some masters courses.I never really studied anything robotics related in school directly. Masters stuff was in IC design.Quote from: Tris20 on August 08, 2013, 03:06:08 pmWhen working with the Fanuc robot, I spent pretty much everyday programming, testing and optimizing the robot code. Also worked on interfacing it to the PLC and HMI.We also heavily used machine vision so a decent amount of time was tweaking the camera positions and getting the best lighting (lighting is the most critical part of machine vision). Calibration of the vision system was always on my list too. Machine vision is one of the coolest things that I've ever seen, its really powerful stuff.In general, the job was really hands on so I liked that aspect of it.Quote from: Tris20 on August 08, 2013, 03:06:08 pmFor me I was doing the X-Ray stuff right out of school, took me about 5 years to do the other stuff but I'm pretty confident that I could have done that right out of school as well. Probably wouldn't have been nearly as effective but that is true for any career.Quote from: Tris20 on August 08, 2013, 03:06:08 pmI don't think there is anything to consider essential reading. The only way that you will learn to program a robot is by doing it. The only thing that I will say is that it certainly helps to understand things like forward and reverse kinematics, photography and image processing. This would take a lot of the mystery out of how the robot works inside. There are probably some good books on this topic.Quote from: Tris20 on August 08, 2013, 03:06:08 pmI'm not in the field any more, I've always have a curiosity for IC design & application so hence my current position.However my general advice is that if you are interested in robotics, you'll first need to decide what application space you want to be in. I highly recommend industrial robotics because thats where the demand is high and there are plenty of opportunities out there.Honestly, it you are really sure that it is what you want to do, I think a technical college degree would be the way to go and then get yourself real world experience as soon as possible.The other thing is that you need to be mechanically inclined. Ideally you should know how to do basic modeling in CAD, read mechanical drawings, turn a wrench and assemble things properly.In you areusingrobots (notdesigningrobots) I think that a mechanical degree with a robot programming focus is probably the best blend of education actually.Quote from: Tris20 on August 08, 2013, 03:06:08 pmYes I have to admit, it is very fun and rewarding work. For me personally, it wan't the way that I wanted to spend the rest of my career but it was a good time.Watch some YouTube videos with Fanuc robots, neat stuff...

author: Tris20
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2013, 08:11:06 pm
content: Absolutely cracking response! I get the impression that a fair amount of the employment in the robotics field is related to assembly line work. How big was your team out of interest?Machine vision looks really interesting. Definitely going to have a look at that when I get some free time

author: lgbeno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2013, 08:36:36 pm
content: QuoteI believe so and I think that it will continue to grow, especially in the US because the ROI is such that the Robot can easily pay for itself in less than the first year of operation without even including the increase in quality/repeatability or its assembly. This is assuming multiple shifts per day and the robot replacing 2-3 semi-skilled workers.Our team was 2 EEs, 1 ME and a part time program manager. If the schedule allowed, we probably could have gotten away with just 1EE and 1ME.QuoteIts really cool, traditionally, parts would have to be precisely paced somewhere for the robot to pick up or place, now they can just be laying on a conveyer or dumped loosely into a bin.This would be a task really trivial for a human to do but something that is difficult to do with a robot but now it is possible:Pill sorting is always fun to watch too:For our assembly we were also able to closely inspect each part before we added the next so we could detect failures before the unit was fully assembled and tested so that saved a lot of test time and scrap.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2013, 07:44:51 am
content: Quote from: Tris20 on August 08, 2013, 03:06:08 pmHello Tris20.While i am not specifically a _robotics_ engineer per se, and my current job is more in project and program management of enterprise SW, let me answer anyway.I am trained (MSc level) in control systems engineering. In that role I have done a lot of motion control systems design for heavy industry. Many of the systems were relatively complex such as FMS centers (flexible manufacturing), and multivariate drive systems for paper and steel industry as well as some powertrain and traction systems for heavy vehicles like trains, streetcars.There are basically 2 kinds of robotics engineering. One is applying robots in practical use cases and the other is developing the actual robots themselves. Both are demanding in their own way.For me, applying robots in industry and elsewhere is not really robotics; it is more like production planning and factory automation which have their own challenges, yet a different problem area. Others may disagree.Robotics proper would be designing and constructing a robot (i.e. a manipulator oriented and operating in some coordinate space) and it is a multidisciplinary applied science. Firstly there is the basic mechanic and electric/electronic design which are challenging in themselves. Those however are things that "normal" mechanical/electronics EEs can and will do. A robot is a prime example of a mechatronic system demanding close cooperation with the specialists of each subdiscipline.But then there is the control part and that literally is a world unto itself. I may be advertising my own chosen competence here but you can easily spend a lifetime as a student of theoretical and applied control. More than people generally are aware of, control systems permeate the modern society wherever you look. Not all of them are refined high-brow systems but some actually are.Designing the control system of a robot manipulator is an intensely mathematical task. As a robotics engineer you will be on a first name basis with a lot of nontrivial math such as matrix algebra including concepts like the Jacobian, numerous coordinate systems, coordinate transformations and translations, multidimensional kinematics and motion dynamics (rotation, orientation, motion, forward, reverse, velocity), joint spaces with Lagrange and Newton-Euler modeling, motion path planning strategies and last but not least, fundamental and advanced control theory, control strategies and techniques.Needless to say, implementing all of that in actual hardware will make you familiar with a lot of high end embedded systems and tools.Essential reading? Well, math of course. You need to be comfortable with all of the basic toolkit of a control engineer; laplace and z-transforms, stability, dynamics yada yada. On top of that the math specifically targeted at robotics as outlined above. There are lots of books on that but some introductory texts in my own bookshelf that i can recommend:Reza N. Jazar: Theory of Applied Robotics - Kinematics, Dynamics and Control, 2nd ed Springerhttp://www.amazon.com/Theory-Applied-Robotics-Kinematics-Dynamics/dp/1441917497/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1376032193&sr=8-1&keywords=theory+of+applied+roboticsSpong, Hutchinson, Vidyasagar: Robot Modeling and Control, 1st ed Wiley & Sonshttp://www.amazon.com/Robot-Modeling-Control-Mark-Spong/dp/0471649902/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1376032330&sr=8-1&keywords=robot+modeling+and+controlPerhaps not strictly on introductory level but worth mentioning since here you will be if you pursue the career:Siciliano, Sciavicco, Villani, Oriolo: Robotics - Modelling, Planning and Control, Springerhttp://www.amazon.com/Robotics-Modelling-Planning-Textbooks-Processing/dp/1846286417/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1376032834&sr=8-1&keywords=robotics+modelling%2C+planning+and+controlAll of these have a "look inside" feature in Amazon so you can check the list of contents and typical text pages.And as to the question if it is as fun as it looks. From my own experience in the industry i want to (mis)quote the Men in Black:Agent J: "Is it worth it?"Agent K: "Sure it is - if you can take it"

author: Tris20
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2013, 10:30:15 am
content: I know most people will see those videos as nothing much but a boring assembly device but the more of these I see the more excited I get! It's a pure application of maths! You calculate and you calculate and then you get the ultimate and undeniable reward of a successful device which accounts for variable situations! Beautiful!I admit I'm only touching the tip of what I suspect is an enormous (and growing) iceberg just now but I can't help finding all of this very exciting! From what I've seen I agree that control systems and autonomous systems seem to be extremely complicated and where a bulk of the extensive calculation and mathematical application will be. The most impressive autonomous system I've seen so far has hands down got to be this:http://www.ted.com/talks/raffaello_d_andrea_the_astounding_athletic_power_of_quadcopters.htmlI swear, If we showed videos like this in schools then a lot more kids would be inspired to study maths. Very excited to be looking at all this just before my second year of uni!

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2013, 10:42:26 am
content: There was some problem with the link but i know which one you mean.Also check this demo by Ishikawa Komuro labs, especially the dynamic regrasping is mind boggling:

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2013, 11:11:10 am
content: Quote from: Tris20 on August 09, 2013, 10:30:15 amActually this was a new one! Thanks for the link, it was real interesting. Your post had it tagged as am IMG that's why it doesn't show. I fixed that here.http://www.ted.com/talks/raffaello_d_andrea_the_astounding_athletic_power_of_quadcopters.html

author: Tris20
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2013, 12:33:21 pm
content: yeah must have clicked image by mistake. It was at a recent show in Edinburgh. Really impressed with the speed and dexterity of the machines in the video you posted kremmen.

author: lgbeno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2013, 01:42:14 pm
content: Kremmen, that video is very impressive, the amount of research and work for them to get to that point is incredible.So lets look at it this way, there is a huge spectrum in robotics from advanced research to practical application of already designed and proven platforms.Research endeavors require the type of education kremmen is talking about. A practical application was my second example.If doing research, you would likely need to get a PhD and spend an incredible amount of time studying. You will need to live and breathe the math and controls. Probably spending nights and weekends in the lab and having hundreds of failures for every one success. You will also need to be a pretty mobile person, and move wherever in the world the research is happening. That's a long road but for those that dedicated, very rewarding.The opposite side of the spectrum is just the sheer application of robots. You should be familiar with the math but for the most part, that is all taken car of under the hood of the robot and controller. This is more something that you would do with a 2 year tech degree or bs. From there you can go a lot of places. There's probably a 1000 to 1 jobs on this side and likely one within 100 miles of where you live right now.To that point it's your choice what interests you the most.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

author: uoficowboy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2013, 08:29:45 pm
content: Quote from: Tris20 on August 08, 2013, 03:06:08 pmFormer "robotics engineer" here. Now just a normal EE working on consumer electronics.Degree: BSEEDaily work: This consisted of a decent amount of EE design work, meetings, and a lot of time in the lab.How long it took to get there: I was offered a job at a robotics company about 6 months before I graduated, then worked there for three years before moving into the consumer world.Books: Robotics is too wide open to have a specific book to recommend. You don't just focus on robotics - you focus on an area within robotics. Just like how you can't just be an EE - you focus on something or be mediocre at everything.What I would do differently: I think I did everything just about right. I could have been more careful to not piss off my managers, however.Fun: I enjoyed the work I did but did not like the company/management. In my current job I don't particularly like the work I do but I like the company. Someday I'll find a job that is good in both aspects, but that day has not come yet.

author: KTP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2013, 11:42:24 pm
content: Dang it, now I want a quad again. I had put the urge at bay for the past year or so, but that video....

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2013, 01:06:03 am
content: Here's what you can do if you really trust your robot programmer.

author: KTP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2013, 01:14:06 am
content: I saw that vid a few years ago. Having worked with several cnc machines, I wonder how they would have cleaned the brain jelly off the floor had one of the brushless servo encoders lost a wire...Perhaps they had another program that would use a rag to wipe up brains

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2013, 01:37:37 am
content: I showed that video to a guy that works with Fanuc robots and he said he didn't even trust himself enough to do that.

author: lgbeno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2013, 03:56:05 am
content: That video makes me uncomfortable, his head gets so close to the floor...Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

author: ablacon64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2013, 12:14:16 pm
content: Man, I wouldn't trust it like that. I thought he was going to loose his head... Jeeee....

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2013, 04:52:17 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on August 10, 2013, 01:06:03 amit not a matter of trusting your best programmer. its about physics... look at the youtube comment..."This is an abuse of a FANUC robot - it seems to violate many RIA safety standards and there is no protection for the people "riding.""

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2013, 05:00:20 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on August 10, 2013, 04:52:17 pmI doubt swinging a person around abuses the robot much.

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2013, 10:50:17 pm
content: Quote from: Tris20 on August 08, 2013, 03:06:08 pmI have a BSEE, BSCE and completed the majority of a MSEE.On a daily basis it's a mix of firmware, prototyping and circuit design. It's all dependent on what kind of project I'm working on. If I'm not working on a custom job then I'm cycling through the product line to see if I can make things better and cheaper.I'm more or less an entry level engineer.For books, the art of electronics is always good but mainly I've found that practical experience is what makes you a good engineer.For what I would have done differently, I would have spent more time being proactive in doing more projects on my own and especially I would have spent more time programming. An exceptional part of the job is programming and the more comfortable you are with that the better off you'll be.The job is fun but incredibly demanding. Everything has to be done yesterday and there's always the pressure to have the hardware work right on the initial prototype.