ebay sellers don't know how to led lamp - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MatthewMorgan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 09:31:52 am
content: 30w lamp but a 13amp fuse and the earth should be longer then live and neutral but is not.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 09:46:17 am
content: 13A fuse is to protect the cable, not device itself. Nothing wrong with it. Although if it is China special, I would be concerned if that fuse is genuine BS 1362 compliant one. If the earth terminal is not longer, why don't you show it on the picture?

author: MatthewMorgan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 10:08:37 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 16, 2016, 09:46:17 amThe yellow/green wire is the earth.a 13amp fuse won't would not really protect a thin flex.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 10:08:47 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 16, 2016, 09:46:17 amHe means the earth lead inside the plug should be longer, so that if for some reason the other cables get yanked out, the earth cable is the last to disconnect.Tom Scott explains it well (although I still maintain the Australian plug is better)

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 10:25:41 am
content: Hey, at least it'sgota fuse:

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 12:57:12 pm
content: Though that fuse could consist of a steel strap inside the ceramic that will always pass 13A, and which will blow at around 300A after a few minutes.Anyway that cable will of course be the new standard cheap Chinese cable, consisting of 7 strands of CCA on the line and neutral and 4 strands of CCA on the earth wire.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 01:13:48 pm
content: "30w lamp but a 13amp fuse and the earth should be longer then live and neutral but is not."You bought it off eBay, right? Expecting anything else would have been foolish.Kind like going to a brothel and hope to find true love.

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 03:13:42 pm
content: fuse is to protect the device not cabling. it really depends on how many amps the device takes in. Im sure many of you experts here could mention what amp fuse to use for what amp input and what cheap dollar fuses will work and what wont.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 03:43:54 pm
content: Quote from: System Error Message on June 16, 2016, 03:13:42 pmNo, this is a common misconception. The fuse in a BS1363 plug protects the flexible cord to which it is attached.In the case of a Chinese CCA cable a 100mA fuse would probably be appropriate

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 05:30:36 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on June 16, 2016, 03:43:54 pmAnd it has to be that way. Imagine a removable cord, how could the manufacturer possibly know the current draw and appropriate fuse rating of the device on the other end?The same misconception often surfaces on home/commercial wiring. I was installing three 220V/30A outlets at work for a welder, band saw and drum heaters. I went to the home improvement store to get the parts, and the guy was so adamant that I can't use an outlet rated for 50A on a 30A circuit. Then he was adamant that I can't use a 30A circuit for a band saw that will draw 15A. Then he was adamant that a 220V circuit requires a larger gauge wire than the same amps rating on a 110V circuit. I ultimately left with the parts I need and him tut-tut'ing and saying he hopes I don't hurt myself and should call an electrician.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 06:22:45 pm
content: If I am to understand this correctly, what we are basically saying is that the DEVICE that is being powered ultimately sets the max current draw of the circuit. But the fuse back at the switch box needs to cut out if there is a short-circuit, and must be LOWER than the rating of all the wires in your walls, the plug box, the plug and so on.For example, if your circuit breaker is 30 A, you'd better have at least 30 A-rated wire in your walls, 30 A-rated plug. Otherwise, if you drew 25 A from the outlet, and your wall wires and outlet were only 15A (one, or the other, or both) and the circuit breaker was cutting out only at 30 A, you would be heating up and burning your wires/outlet.If you have a 50 A outlet and 50 A wiring connected up to a 30 A circuit breaker, that is totally fine. You plug in a 15 A band saw and it will work just fine. If there is a fault in the band-saw and it shorts, it will instantly draw a much larger Amperage, the circuit breaker will trip at 30A and protect your wires from frying too since they will never reach 50 A.I also noted on the original post.... he said 30 WATT lamp but a 13 AMP fuse. So according to W = I x V, and a 220 V source, 30 watts, then we have 30 W = ?A x 220 V, which means around 136 mA draw on the LED (max) would be tolerated. Am I correct in this?So if the lamp is actually drawing 136 mA, at 220 V, it would be using 30 watts. So having a 13 AMP fuse is actually way over.... By the time we reach the max fuse rating, then 13 A x 220 V = 2860 watts! And the lamp is only using 30 W? So that fuse is probably going to be protecting the cord from burning, like was mentioned before.... The actual LED lamp is using WAY WAY LESS. If it shorts, the fuse protects the cable from heating up.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 06:33:02 pm
content: Fuse is only for the cable. Device itself must have it's own fuse. The reason why UK plugs have fuses, is that because of the ring wiring, circuit breakers have rather high current rating (30A), therefore there in needed additional protection in the case of faulty cable/plug.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 06:42:23 pm
content: Quote from: edy on June 16, 2016, 06:22:45 pmI am not sure of the electrical code in the UK, but in the USA, it basically comes down to the fact that the point of failure must be the part that was designed to fail (i.e. the circuit breaker) and not something else (like the wire).You could use 10mm diameter conductor wire for a 110V/20A circuit if you wanted, just as long as you have a 20A breaker on it (and your socket is rated for 20A).In my example, the 50A socket is fine for a 30A circuit. I used to use the twist-lock connectors (like NEMA L8-30) but they suck - they get hung up on insertion/removal and I want the plug to come out if the wire gets pulled. So I switched all the portable stuff over to NEMA 6-50 for 220V and (IIRC) NEMA 18-50 for 3-phase stuff. I am using 8 gauge wire and 30A breakers, which leaves the circuit breaker as the weakest link - as it should be.There are some other restrictions, for example it would be against code to use a 3-phase outlet for a 220V line (using 2 of the terminals and leaving the others unconnected), but it's generally perfectly OK to use hardware (wires, outlets, boxes) that have a higher current rating.It's like I said to the guy at Home Depot when buying the parts and he told me the circuit needs to be sized to the device plugged into it. I asked "so does that mean it's against code to plug a 1amp light into my 20amp-capable wall outlet?

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 06:56:27 pm
content: To be honest, I do not know how to led lamp. Because I do not know what that means.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 07:39:21 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 16, 2016, 06:33:02 pmAnd if you got a typical distribution panel with a breaker for each wire (non ring wiring) the power cables need to have a large enough cross section to pass sufficient current to trip the circuit breaker. IIRC, the smallest one allowed in Germany is 0.75mm² (16A circuit breaker).I don't know if the UK code permits smaller cross sections for lower currents as the fuse can be choosen accordingly. Would it be ok to use a power cable with 0.25mm² and an 1A fuse in the plug?

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 07:39:37 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on June 16, 2016, 10:25:41 amAnd an earth. I came across a couple of 2 core chineese 'kettle' leads a few months ago.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 08:42:01 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on June 16, 2016, 10:25:41 amNot sure if it's a fuse or pyrotechnic insert. Considering the shitty alignment of the end caps probably the latter

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 09:32:37 pm
content: There are pros and cons for every system to be said.I like almost everything of the British plug because of the safety aspect AND there's room in there to use decent wire. Try getting 3 x 2.5 mm2in aSchukoplug (CEE 7/4), and you're struggling.Tom Scott's video als mentioned that the Schuko pins could be touched when partially inserted. Yes, but only when it's inserted in an unearthed socket (CEE 7/1). I can vividly remember that I once saw my grandmother plug in an iron in such a socket and thinking about the danger. The correct earthed socket for that plug (CEE 7/3) is rather deeply recessed, though. That makes for a pretty sturdy connection, and can actually be very hard to unplug.The BS 1363 plug seems to have rather large pins and hence rather large holes. That I don't like as shutters in the sockets are a must, but what if they were to break off? Most Schukos made do without the shutters for a long time because the holes aren't all that big. Nowadays shutters are common on these as well (and can be a nuiscance). It can also not defeat the shutters the way the BS1363 plug can do by only plugging in the earth pin.Possible safety concerns of Schukos: non-polarized and unfused. Our systems make do with fuses/circuit breakers on one in in the distribution box and the fuse inside the device (if any) on the other end, with nothing in between.Oh, and a straight Schuko plug can't land on the floor with the pins up in the air (an angled one might, but not likely), and the pins are nicely rounded.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 09:41:35 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on June 16, 2016, 10:25:41 amI can already hear Big Clive have another complaint at the sight of that plug: the earth pin must be left unisolated over the full length.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 10:15:55 pm
content: Quote from: jitter on June 16, 2016, 09:32:37 pmShutters in Schukos are a piece of shit. You need to push the plug forcefully through them. In UK receptacles they work completely different (smart way). Shutters are pushed with earth pin only, without any significant force.QuoteWhich is great actually, means they are doing the task really well. Not only they are 2 orders of magnitude more reliable but also provide much better protection against kids sticking some objects in the live holes. You can push a metal object into the live holes with as force you want, shutters will never open. Well, I managed to use a EU phone charger combined a screwdriver or scissors in the earth hole while I was in UK. No adapters needed.

author: MatthewMorgan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 07:43:33 am
content: Update:Got a full refund from the seller,They do not want the item back as they do not want to spend the time dealing with a return. (UK Warehouse via shipping management company so it could also cost them).

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 08:00:13 am
content: Quote from: MatthewMorgan on June 18, 2016, 07:43:33 amThere's nothing wrong with the cable, getting a refund is being a douchebag.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 10:15:00 am
content: Agreed, you took unfair advantage of the seller. There was nothing at all to stop you replacing the fuse and wiring the plug a bit better.

author: rch
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 10:30:55 am
content: I agree. Using lower current fuses for low power appliances is quite a nice idea, but it is unnecessary if the cable is rated for adequate current. The actual appliance should have some protection against excessive current. And if it is a detachable cable it is a real nuisance finding too late that it has a 3A fuse when you use it for something else.The wiring of the plug is reasonably good as the live (brown) wire is short, and you could always cut a cm off the blue wire if you really wanted to.Edit: as a private seller I would have sent the OP a 3A fuse, but Ebay does make life difficult for sellers who want to argue with their customers. The keep changing the rules, but AIUI there are only 13A and 3A fuses officially approved nowadays.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 10:41:54 am
content: Quote from: MatthewMorgan on June 18, 2016, 07:43:33 amPushing it to the limitI'm beginning to understand the *bay sellers that complains about the buyers protection./Bingo

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 10:49:46 am
content: To further improve this best bit of design, they could make the cable entry near the earth pin so it would naturally be longer than the 'live' wires.Also that bLue Left and bRown Right mnemonic is pretty confusing as it is only correct when wiring plugs and not sockets.In Australia the Active, Neutral and Earth are always marked, almost certainly it mandatory.As to the EBay seller taking a hit on this.I suppose if it law to wire it this way then it would be good to let the manufacturer know. Maybe the message will get back to them via his seller.

author: MatthewMorgan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 11:14:10 am
content: Quote from: rch on June 18, 2016, 10:30:55 amTalking to the seller was hard due to their poor english. (Worse then most chinese sellers).Edit:And testing the first lamp did not go well.

author: rch
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 11:28:57 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on June 18, 2016, 10:49:46 amI think the law says you have to sell consumer goods with a moulded-on plug, but maybe there are exceptions to this.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 11:32:49 am
content: I see no reason why a Chinese seller should follow UK law for compliance, for goods manufactured and sold in China. MatthewMorgan is the one importing it.

author: MatthewMorgan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 11:41:38 am
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on June 18, 2016, 11:32:49 amNope it ware brought from a UK warehouse.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 11:56:00 am
content: Quote from: rch on June 18, 2016, 10:30:55 am13A and 3A are thepreferredvalues, and must be coloured brown and red respectively. Any other value less than 13A isallowed, and must be black. 5A is common, and 2A less so. 7A and 10A fuses also crop up from time to time.Quote from: rch on June 18, 2016, 11:28:57 amThe law only specifies that a plug must be fitted; it may or may not be rewireable. Moulded plugs are just cheaper.

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 11:58:17 am
content: Quote from: bingo600 on June 18, 2016, 10:41:54 amYeah, no kidding, it's an extreme in this case.So is that massive red copywrite on the picture lol, I really doubt anyone would need or want to steal it, copywrite or not.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 12:00:00 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on June 18, 2016, 08:00:13 amActually, the fuse looks fake.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 12:09:00 pm
content: Quote from: MatthewMorgan on June 18, 2016, 11:41:38 amSo let me get this straight, you felt obliged to ask for a refund on your order because the wire to the ground pin on the power cord should ideally have been 1-2 cm longer?

author: MatthewMorgan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 12:34:48 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on June 18, 2016, 12:09:00 pmMore then that to be honest,First lamp did not work well (Failed first run in 30 seconds) and the on the second plug is too tight for me to check (I hate plugs i can't check first).

author: MatthewMorgan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 12:37:01 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on June 18, 2016, 11:56:00 amEven 1A is available commonly.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 12:39:00 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 18, 2016, 12:00:00 pmEasy to check, crack it open and see if there is sand inside. If there is a sand, then even if they falsely marked it as BS 1362 compliant, at least they cared enough to make it properly.

author: netman
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 09:10:36 pm
content: Why are the British so fussy about wiring and plugs? Over here no plug has a fuse at all, non-earthed sockets are not really up to code but ubiquitous nonetheless, and nobody dies... I think... Chinese import stuff I find it quite normal to have to fit my own plug, and verify it is half-safe.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 05:04:26 am
content: Quote from: netman on June 28, 2016, 09:10:36 pmIt has been drilled in to them for years. Wiring a plug correctly is/was thought in schools and over the years there were many TV adverts (public information programs) on the dangers of electricity and unsafe wiring.They also have higher rated fuses, both in to houses and protecting socket circuits than other countries. A legacy of the old two bar electric heater.https://youtu.be/9rY8Cb4OgmEhttps://youtu.be/KWcFAJ1_bokhttps://youtu.be/-vvVGL53c7whttps://youtu.be/PoL3MjllVSs

author: netman
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 06:23:54 am
content: Wow! I wasn't expecting such actually enlightening answer, also explains why Malaysia isn't like such even though they use the same style sockets and wiring.I've traveled there (Malaysia) often enough and one of the first things I learned is you can insert non-earthed Euro plugs in those British sockets if you jam a pair of scissors in the earth - not an uncommon practice apparently, they even sell plenty of appliances with European 2 prong plugs and fancy power strips that will accept them without the fiddle.Definitely a good thing to have the general public somewhat educated about wiring though, thanks for pointing to those videos, it's much appreciated.Quote from: Towger on June 29, 2016, 05:04:26 am