Will this detect beryllium ceramics? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: antenna
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2024, 01:29:16 am
content: I have heard that beryllium can interact with alpha particles to produce neutrons and gamma radiation, which can then cause secondary emission of beta radiation. If beryllium eats up alpha and sends out beta and gamma, would it work to place a Geiger counter (shielded from alpha) and an alpha-only source (like a lantern mantle) in a box and place the suspect ceramic between them? Is there enough beryllium in the dangerous ceramics for this to even work?I would simply try it but I don't yet own a Geiger counterI guess the box is not important lol

author: MarkT
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2024, 10:46:39 am
content: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspa.1938.0016might help.Neutron detection is hard I believe, requires candle wax (or anything mainly made of hydrogen) and a proton detector. Not sure where the beta particles come into this, gamma will require a scintillation detector I think.A lesson from history:https://allthatsinteresting.com/david-hahnBTW if you can measure the thermal conductivity that's a good way to identify beryllia, its a very good heat conductor, as good as most metals.

author: antenna
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2024, 08:10:33 pm
content: I remember reading somewhere that radon could be detected with a geiger counter by checking the dust in the HVAC air filter for beta, something about secondary emissions, but I cannot find the article. I was hoping that the neutrons produced would interact with more of the beryllia to produce beta particles that could be detected without the candle wax/neutron detection.. Are you suggesting that the beryllia would need to be ground and mixed with wax for the neutrons to react with the beryllia (defeating the point)?The problem with scintillation counting is that I believe the alphas will also cause scintillation, so I would be detecting the alpha source. The goal was to use the alpha source without scintillation to prevent the detection of the alphas lettnig the geiger counter only detect the product of secondary beryllia emission from interaction with the alphas. Besides, scintillation materials require a photomultiplier tube i think and I wanted to avoid that too.Thanks! I go will take a look at that link.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2024, 11:02:30 pm
content: the problem with TC is that you would need samples to put in a heat flux meter to measure it probobly.The best test would IMO be some kind of test where you take a microscopic amount of dust, dissolve it in an acid and try to identify a unique color changing reaction to Be. I mean micro-scale chemistry on the lowest possible wet reaction sizes. Like the tests used for gold detection on jewelry.

author: Vgkid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2024, 11:34:36 pm
content: Quote from: antenna on February 17, 2024, 08:10:33 pmAt work our geiger counters can detect radon on certain filter media (pabcake probes, not the average GM tubes) generally we use an alpha probe (ZnSAg scintillation detector, or a gas fill proportional counter)

author: MarkT
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2024, 02:12:42 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 17, 2024, 11:02:30 pmCheap diamond detector might work with BeO too? A thought.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2024, 10:11:27 pm
content: no idea

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2024, 10:16:03 pm
content: While I can't say as to whether your method would work, your source would not. Thorium lantern mantles are pretty significant gamma emitters too - I use them as a check source and they're one of the more active sources in terms of raw counts I've got.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2024, 10:16:56 pm
content: Quote from: MarkT on February 17, 2024, 10:46:39 amThis. Pick up the suspect ceramic item and dip it in your freshly made cup of tea. If you burn your fingers and have to let go it's probably beryllia. The thermal conductivity isthatdifferent from alumina so it is pretty obvious. Discard the tea.* The neutron idea is cool, and sounds kinda fun, but neutron detection is quite difficult.*probably not necessary as it's not really water soluble, but still.

author: antenna
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2024, 02:53:17 am
content: I think I will go the thermal route. Thanks!!!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2024, 03:42:41 am
content: That sounds plausible but you would really want to have two identical samples to compare to train yourself.Unless you happen to have a piece of bothis it really that obvious to the touch? I try not to touch anything I think is BeO without gloves personally. Will this work through lab gloves?

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2024, 05:01:20 am
content: Quote from: antenna on February 17, 2024, 01:29:16 amYou really don't want to do that. What you're creating there, with a sufficiently energetic source to produce results like Am241, is something called a neutron howitzer, and you really don't want to run one of those unless you've got the right setup for it, principally involving borated paraffin and/or lead bricks.

author: Wolfram
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2024, 04:12:49 pm
content: If you know that the material is either alumina or beryllia, then density should be a good indicator. The thermal conductivity test should also be pretty conclusive since the difference between them is an order of magnitude. If your material is not guaranteed to be either beryllia or alumina, note that also AlN has similar density and thermal conductivity to BeO.One thing to keep in mind is that thermal conductivity of ceramics depends a lot on purity, crystal structure and the actual temperature. It's a surprisingly complex field, if you want to look into concepts like phonon scattering and group velocity.

author: MegaVolt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 01:03:55 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 19, 2024, 03:42:41 amIf you don’t have any wounds on your skin, you can take it with your bare hands. For more protection, gloves are suitable.The main danger is beryllium dust. Those. It's important to protect your lungs. But if you are not processing it, again the danger is minimal.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 03:07:46 pm
content: On thermal conductivity, perhaps a cheap diamond tester (checks for the extreme thermal conductivity of diamond) could be hacked into a BeO tester? Or a similar device rigged up.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 03:39:08 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on February 18, 2024, 10:16:56 pmModified test protocol: ...if it feels cold before putting it in the tea and hot afterwards.These heatsinks inside a Tek 485 feel cold due to the conductivity and heat capacity.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 04:30:25 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfram on February 19, 2024, 04:12:49 pmIn which case a diamond tester would probably do this, maybe with tweaked calibration