Earth, neutral and a messy fusebox - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2014, 12:08:13 pm
content: Hello,I've been watching the EEVblog on Youtube for years, but this is the first time I'm visiting the forum. Not sure if this is the right forum section for this sort of thing, but hopefully it hits the mark as General stuff. Well, I guess I'll just go straight to my problem. I live in Lithuania and grounding systems are terrible to non existent in this place. The receptacles in my flat have no grounding conductor attached. Because of that reason, parasitic voltages appear on enclosures. For example a computer enclosure, which has those earth reference caps in its power supply. I get half the supply voltage right on the case. Even though the current is low, the idea alone bothers the crap out of me. It's insane! It would be nice to at least ground a washing machine for starters. Anyway, here's the fuse box (a work of art):I'm thinking of a way to add the third connection and ground this stuff properly. Is it even possible to do it in my situation? The Earth and Neutral conductors are tied together on the main frame (green/yellow and blue - the color codes are right!). My question is whether one can route an additional wire from the frame's earth/neutral point to use it as the third conductor on a receptacle. Would it be safe? And if not, what would be the dangers? Any kind of information would help. I've been looking around for an answer locally, but different people say completely different things, which probably means that some of them are dead wrong. I'm not going to pretend like I understand grounding systems, which I don't. I've read a lot of varying opinions, but usually very little science to back them up.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2014, 12:54:39 pm
content: There isn't anything safe about doing wiring in switchboards. But I think trying to sort it out somehow is the right approach.Cant you get an electrician to sort it out? Obviously it will cost but it is probably the only legal way.This will give some info on Earthing systems but I dont know what system Lithuania is. You should be able to find out. If you have TN-C-S then it probably applies to the whole block of flats and you should have an incoming earth wire. I cant see one though.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_systemFrom the picture it looks like there is no separate bond to earth originating within your switchboard. There may be one at the buildings supply point. Look around near the main switchboard for the block of units.Also, what is the voltage AC between your waterpipes and your earth wire?I wouldn't recommend adding an earth yourself, as many things could go wrong such as if the wires are connected wrongly down the road it would create a short circuit via earth.One thing I would recommend is get someone to replace the small circuit breakers with Combined Circuit Breakers and RCDs.Also what are all the various round things?Why do you have an Australian power outlet socket? Is that what you use over there?

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 14, 2014, 01:12:35 pm
content: I've never seen anything like that!, do they have anything like the UK Part P over there?I'd get an electrician out ASAP to sort that earth and do a safety test.This is how they look in the UK

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2014, 01:22:06 pm
content: Quote from: gore on November 14, 2014, 12:08:13 pmCan't say anything specific, but a few things to be careful about:1. If the earth wire exists, and such wiring is common, then it might be tied to neutral in many other places. Don't assume that an incoming earth wire is actually earth.2. If you change this yourself, then someone might come and try to change it again, on assumption that it wasn't changed. Might cause problems and booms.3. Making a separate grounding wire (going into the planet below, or to some pipes, etc) is a bad idea, for the same reasons as 1.Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on November 14, 2014, 12:54:39 pmThat socket seems familiar from the Soviet days - i've seen them around as late as 90s.No idea what they are for. 110V from pre-war times?

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2014, 01:24:12 pm
content: Please speak to an electrician if you do not know what you are doing. There could be liability issues if somebody is injured or killed in an electrical accident after you have modified the fusebox.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2014, 01:28:10 pm
content: "This is how they look in the UK"Correction:This is how they SHOULD look in the UKOver the years I have seen many questionable electrical installations and some of them were in the UK. However, compared to Russia and parts of the Far East the British are electrical Saints.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2014, 01:37:16 pm
content: And this is the most common type I've seen here in North America. They don't all look this tidy, however...There must be published standards for mains wiring in your country. You should probably start there to see what are the current conventions for ground, neutral, and hot wiring, colors, bonding, etc. etc.At least in my country, fixed mains wiring in a private residence may be done by the owner as long as he is the resident. But working on mains wiring in a public building or even a private rental house/flat, etc. is only allowed by a licensed electrician. And all but the most trivial work must have a permit issued by the local authorities and be inspected by a government inspector to ensure public safety. Perhaps procedures like that are not as formal in your area, but it would still be good to follow published conventions so that anyone coming along later will see that it was done by someone who knew what the standards are and complied with them.PS: It would be to your benefit to complete your user profile to at least display what country you are in for convenient reference.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2014, 02:25:05 pm
content: Having an electrician fix it right is the way to go, but a cheaper alternative is to just buy a metal cased surge protector and then run a wire from the case to a known ground like a metal water pipe or the outside of a cable TV outlet.

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2014, 06:01:50 pm
content: Thank you for all the insightful responses. I appreciate it. So far it looks like the only way to make it happen is to call a certified electrician for a consultation, and possibly, to replace the whole damn rat’s nest with proper equipment. By the way, you had me laughing about the Australian power outlet. At first I didn’t understand what you had in mind until I looked at my own photograph again. I have no idea what that thing is. Bizarre!I can assure you that usually we do not use such receptacles here.

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2014, 06:50:34 pm
content: QuoteThat is correct. The Neutral and Earth wires are connected together at the frame of the switchboard. Looks like 5 wires come into the switchboard: L1, L2, L3 and two more (probably Neutral and Earth, which are bonded together). There is no color code, so it's difficult to tell which is which just by looking at it. Tomorrow I'll go take a look at how things are at other floors of the building and the basement, where the main switchboard should be located.The voltage between the Earth/Neutral bond at the frame and one of my water pipes is ~ 1.4VAC.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2014, 08:11:30 pm
content: Richard, I think you win the prize, that wiring is a thing of beauty

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 01:43:59 am
content: Quote from: German_EE on November 14, 2014, 08:11:30 pm10/10 for neatness. Let's hope there is a clear wiring diagram, stating which CB is used for what function and where, else it gets 3/10. A really good installation would have a schematic diagram or a reference table and photographs of the wiring within the walls as the building was being constructed.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 02:09:09 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on November 14, 2014, 01:37:16 pmIn Australia, we are seriously over-governed. It is illegal here for a fully qualified and experienced electrical engineer to even add a light fitting to his house - you have to overpay some electrician with whom you risk getting a good job done and with whom you also risk electrocution. In my house, I found a few metal light fitting installed by a licensed electrician, that did not even have the earth connected. I fixed them myself illegally because I do a far better job than slap-dash electricians.There are many tradesmen around, but very few craftsmen.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 02:16:37 am
content: Richard, ours looks that way as well.We had to replace our old 50 amp box with a new 200 amp box and meter.The electrician did a good job. It, more or less, looked like the original posters picture. This was an old house though, built in the early 50's.Any good electrician who knows his job, and takes pride in his work, can make any electrical box look as nice as the picture Richard posted.The UK and the US has standards and codes to live up to. The original Posters picture wouldn't even come close to passing an inspection here in the US, however, maybe in the OP's country, it's fine. But, my most people standards, mine included, I wouldn't allow something like that in my house. Nasty.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 03:15:26 am
content: Quote from: gore on November 14, 2014, 06:50:34 pmIf neutral and earth are bonded together where they enter the switchboard, then it looks like you have the basis for an earth connection to your electrical sockets. The purpose of a protective earth is to allow enough current to flow to blow the fuse/trip the breaker if there is a fault connecting live to earth. If the earth wire is connected to the neutral wire at the entry point of the premises then this purpose can be met.But if in doubt it will always be best to consult an electrician familiar with local codes and practices.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 03:42:41 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on November 14, 2014, 01:37:16 pmRichard is correct, and to go even further, I know he lives in Oregon and in Oregon at least, If I am not mistaken, the HOME OWNER is the only one. not the homeowner's son, daughter, grandpa, sister, brother, etc can do it, legally. It has to be the home owner only. And, it is only from the meter in. You can't touch the meter, as the meter does not belong to the homeowner, rather, it belongs to the electric company or county that handles the electricity going into the house. In fact, modifying/replacing the meter can get you in big trouble if you don't have the proper permits, permission from the electric company, and license electrician.When the electrician did our house, he did the meter box, but, the electric company, which here in Vancouver, just across the river from Portland, Clark Public Utilities actually came out with a new meter. Those new meters you don't want to mess with. They know when you mess with them. The people who read the meters don't even get out of their vehicles anymore. They just drive by and wirelessly records the meter information on their handheld device they have. In fact, some of the meters on the more expensive homes have a connection directly to the utility company to monitor it via a phone line or some other method. It used to be that they just stick these little tags on them, and you cut the tags, turn the meter backwards, then place the tag back on. If you have done it right, they don't even know, and you STEAL electrical service. Highly illegal, and people did it all the time. They've gotten smart with these new meters, and stealing electricity in that way is a thing of the past now.In regards to the ground connection, the above poster is right. I would start making making sure you have a correct ground.On my house, the electrician pounded a rod into the ground, not sure of the diameter, length, or if it was steel or copper, i didn't ask. He also connected the ground for the panel box to the connection to the water line at the water meter itself. That was code here in Vancouver. Both connections had to be done to insure a proper ground. For your country, OP, that may or may not be overkill. Your first step would be to check your local code enforcement, if you have one. Alot of that information can actually be found on line. Check with your cities permit office website or go down there and ask what needs to be done. Because our house was so old, it didn't have either of those connections. In fact, all the plugs in the house were only 2 prong, they didn't even have the grounding prong. I ran dedicated circuits so we can safely run our computers and heaters off the circuit I placed in each of our rooms. Later, as I get time, I will switch out the other outlets, but I'll need to run new wiring for that down the walls. Luckily, in my situation, because the house was built so long ago, there's no insulation in the walls, and running wire down them will be easy to do.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 04:35:57 am
content: QuoteSounds like overkill, I don't think it is necessary. The circuit breakers and other devices should be labelled, for a normal sized house that is all you need.QuoteNot even all electricians can wire up your house, you need an electrical contractor, ie someone with insurance.Some lights are double insulated from the metal fitting. If this is the case they don't strictly need the earth attached. Still you have to run the earth to the light and loop it to any other lights so you may as well connect it if there is a loop terminal.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 06:13:47 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on November 15, 2014, 02:09:09 amA so called qualified electrician was called out here to take a look at the water service , It kept tripping the old circuit breaker , it looked at it and just left the earth connection off and left as I was looking with actually looking like I was looking yaknow .A few weeks or so later I was getting tingled in the shower , called out another different one turned up (through the real estate) and found that the heater element and corroded though , I tried to remember that first bastard but could not as it was 3 months later or so I realized what had happened ,ifI had recalled who it was as I'm fairly sure that I would have dropped him so lucky me ! .

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 08:16:39 am
content: So far I have found three different methods of grounding a mains connection, all three of them work BUT which method is actually used depends on your local electrical code:1) Earth pins on sockets connected to neutral at either the fuse box or the meter point.2) Earth pins on sockets connected to one or more grounding rods.3) Earth pins on sockets connected to metal sheath of incoming mains cable, metal sheath is connected to substantial ground at substation.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 01:19:14 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on November 15, 2014, 04:35:57 amNot an overkill. I designed and literally built myself a 4000 sq ft house in 1987 at a time time before the government and do-gooders started to meddle in peoples' lives. Built by an engineer, not a slap-dash builder. I took photos of all the wiring in the frame, annotated the cabling and created circuit diagrams etc, as part of producing a 200 page Technical Reference Manual to the house. The Technical Reference Manual contained datasheets, diagrams, photos, raft slab dimensions, a bill of materials, calculations etc, and even assembly instructions (as I built it). The Technical Reference Manual proved was an invaluable resource later on for when I wanted to modify things a bit.The quality of the house was far superior than any builder would bother with. After 13 years of living there, there was not one crack in the plaster, not one crack in the slab and not one crack in the brickwork.The house I live in now, not only had bad wiring, but the sewer was left disconnected for 46 years, 17 feet down. I found this out when part of the back yard collapsed. "Installed" by a plumber. "Approved" by a government authority.If you want anything done right, do it yourself.

author: janengelbrecht
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 06:46:22 pm
content: Quote from: IvoS on November 15, 2014, 06:43:34 pmI dont know anything about the education of certified electricians outside Denmark...but here they have extensive theretical education.Sadly they only have a practical examination...so noone can say for sure that they actually learned anything

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 06:47:21 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on November 15, 2014, 08:16:39 amI'm going to check out the wiring at the main entrance point of the entire building, the main frame, where all the power comes in from the local transformer. So far every panel I check is interconnected with a fat wire, which seems to be connected to the earth frame of the entire building at some point. Measuring between this conductor and, for instance, water pipes, gives continuity, as well as ~1.4VAC. Every panel has Neutral wires bonded together with the fat grounding wire directly at the frame, just like my own. After observing several panels, some people seem to be using the neutral/ground bond as their third "earth" wire. That's like connecting your neutral and earth receptacle pins together, except by running a separate wire from the panel prevents you from getting LIVE on an enclosure by merely flipping a mains plug. Others use the building frame in their bathrooms to ground their washing machines. Not sure how that set up works. Anyway, just doing some research before I bring in some licensed personnel.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 11:11:26 pm
content: I'm all for rules and regulations if applied with knowledge & understanding, one wonders what local supervising inspectors would think about the above examples.However when inspectors attempt to condemn earthing because an acrylic bath fed by plastic piping in a non-conductive environment does not have a physical earth connection one wonders about their training. They were trying to insist on a self tapping screw being inserted into the bath to provide an earth point!Yes it actually happened - fortunately I was in the position to over ride them.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2014, 03:41:14 am
content: Looking at the OP"s switchboard, you could easy get it redone, there is so much space.At the very least I would change the circuit breakers to be combined CB/RCDs. From the picture I think you would need about 5 of these. I think these are the best way to protect against electrocution.They are almost ( but not quite) mandatory now in Australia for new circuits.http://www.hagerelectro.com.au/e-catalogue/energy-distribution/protection/rcbo-s-residential/14158.htmPs. I still don't know what he round things in the original picture are.QuoteYes that is my favoured approach. Often I guess this is not possible because you don't have the skill or it would be illegal so unless you are really sure of the tradesman I wouldn't ask for a fixed price quote either, otherwise they will skive off the moment your back is turned.Time and materials at least doesn't encourage short cuts.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2014, 03:46:55 am
content: My guess would be, those round things in the original picture are fuses. Like the ones you find in old fuse panels from houses built in the 1940's-50's. They kinda look like the ones that were replaced when the electrician put the new 200 amp box in our house.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2014, 10:00:21 am
content: The round zinc passivized plated metal (might be cadmium plate) enclosures are semi rotary water proof switches two have handles still and one is missing its handle. the two objects at the very top are other splash proof switches. Used to lots of similar semi rotary switches in farm and stable yards in the 60' &70's, now its all plastic rocker switches with clear membrane similar to the top one in the OP picture.

author: briselec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2014, 11:08:39 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on November 15, 2014, 02:09:09 amI don't know about other states but In Queensland you can thank the government for that. Years ago every job requiring metering work was fully inspected. The inspectors were the wiring rule experts so if you were doing something in a way that didn't comply with the rules the inspector was the one who would notice and educate you. But they decided that cost too much so now they supposedly check a random 10%. We now have lots of electricians out there who have never had their work inspected. I personally know one guy who didn't know metal light fittings now have to be earthed ( they weren't required to be many years ago) . Due to a more serious stuff up he did on another job the safety office got to know him and put conditions on him that drove him out of the trade.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2014, 11:49:31 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on November 16, 2014, 10:00:21 amOk thanks seems obvious now. Well except for the top two, I cant see a handle on the top two, are they broken?

author: LukeW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2014, 12:13:22 pm
content: I'm kind of surprised that the electricity utility people have obviously come in, in the original photos posted above, and they've replaced the meters with new shiny smart meters but they haven't questioned any of the existing old wiring?Every single wire is white?I would really hope to see different colors for neutral, earth, and each active phase.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2014, 01:08:38 pm
content: Providing a wire is labelled at each end (and documentation is available) there is not a problem with single color wiring. I have seen many industrial panels where only one color is used and I don't view this as an issue. The local electrical code there probably allows it.What DOES cause a problem is the wrong colors being used leading to confusion. I have seen installations in Eastern Europe that have red=ground yellow=phase and blue=neutral at which point there is a moments pause before the circuit tester comes out from the back pocket. Then there are the USA standards where black is DC ground but live on an AC circuit.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2014, 01:28:32 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on November 16, 2014, 11:49:31 amThe top two are rocker switches underneath a rather tatty formerly clear membrane the one on the right of picture looks like it may even be torn.

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2014, 01:35:05 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on November 16, 2014, 03:41:14 amThat's definitely on my list, replacing the old circuit breakers and adding RCD's. I will replace the old ones with a single combined block.I'm not sure what the two round things are on the very top, but the middle ones with a single missing handle are switches. All they do is cut the live wire if need be. Redundant, since you can do the same thing on a circuit breaker.Quote from: LukeW on November 16, 2014, 12:13:22 pmIt's messy and inconvenient, I agree. Some of the live wires are marked with a red marker. Barely visible, but I've noticed. Colored wiring is the way to go, which is also going to happen once I get things moving.I just found out that a dear friend of mine still has the license. He used to work in this exact area. It might save me some money. I don't mind the cost of materials, but a hired electrician charges by half hours. Since I want to sort this mess out, it's going to take time. The job can't be rushed because of some time restriction. Has to be done right.Once again, I thank you all for all the informative responses, suggestions and observations. It helps me a great deal to learn about it.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2014, 01:37:48 pm
content: In the UK it's worse since the colour standards changed in 2004 (I think it was) for both single and 3 phase installations.http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-regulations/cable-colours/New installations no problem, the confusion occurs in additions to an existing building because the new colours must be used. This can lead to colourful junction boxes. Despite the legal requirements for warning stickers the chance for errors has increased.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2014, 02:15:38 pm
content: Black (was neutral) goes to phase and blue (was phase) goes to neutral.Cant say I like Black going to phase. Cant say I like three brown phase wires either.Still I guess it is better than every cable being white.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2014, 02:48:21 pm
content: HackedfridgemagnetI'd almost prefer all white - at least then you'd triple check. I've seen too many close shaves caused unwarranted assumptions.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2014, 06:02:36 pm
content: Quote from: Dave Turner on November 16, 2014, 01:37:48 pmThat's what happens when you get 28 committees trying to decide on something together, we are lucky that they did not decide that all colors should be pink except on Tuesdays when it would be purple.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2014, 09:48:00 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on November 16, 2014, 06:02:36 pmBut the implementation is screwy. If they insisted that all new installations use the new colours and all modifications to legacy installations should use the old colours then everyone would know where they were and confusion would be minimized. But requiring a confusing situation by insisting on a mix of new and old is not understandable.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2014, 10:37:53 pm
content: It is when you consider that there were committees from 28 different countries within the EU making the rules. One governmental committee is bad enough but 28 together we are lucky that they did not decide that all wiring be done with liquorice shoelaces.

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 10:49:22 pm
content: I was thinking about RCD's. Before my friend the electrician comes back from vacation, that's all I can do - a little bit of research. Not that I complain. It's fun. I get to read a lof ot stuff and draw some silly pictures.Wouldn't an RCD protect you in any kind of a fault anyway, even in a setup like mine? And if it's not the case, what kind of a fault would put you in a position of becoming Mr. conductor, like the poor fellow in the picture? Even though according to the diagram, he's perfectly safe in that particular situation, right? All you'd have to do is make some unusual changes in the diagram and he's not safe anymore. Let's call them faults. That's what interests me. I haven't had the opportunity yet to go check out the main fuse box of the building, the entry point of all the fat wires from the local transformer.By the way, I should mention how I got the whole idea in the first place. I build sound gear for musicians. A good portion of it for my personal use.Some other things like simple lab equipment as well. Anyway, I just finished building this particular amp. Looking at it, I though I ought to properly ground it, like it clearly states in any kind of a manual of an amplifier. Oviously the amp is not my only concern.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 10:58:15 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on November 15, 2014, 02:09:09 amThe electricians have a good union which lobbies the government for trade protection. No different to the fridgies. One of my big bugbears.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 11:07:54 pm
content: Quote from: gore on November 19, 2014, 10:49:22 pmThe RCD will only protect you if you are leaking current outside of the protected circuit. If by chance you happened to create a circuit between active and neutral and were insulated from earth, like you were sitting on a plastic chair and had an active conductor wrapped around your left ankle and the neutral conductor wrapped around your right ankle, then you won't trip the RCD and will slowly cook. That may sound like a pathological example, but I read the coroners report.

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 11:29:02 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on November 19, 2014, 11:07:54 pmDidn't the coroner include a note that the deceased had this idea of testing out what being the LOAD of a circuit feels like? I do not have any intention to carry out the function of a light bulb or any other device.Nah. On a serious note, I get it. Even though it sounds extreme, it's still a possibility. But no one is protected against that, huh?

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 11:29:41 pm
content: RCDs will protect you in most cases. Most faults are either to earth via the dedicated earth conductor or via some other path to the real ground.These paths include via the real ground, through water, waterpipes, steel etc. These paths are often highish resistance and so the standard circuit breakers wont even trip.Whereas an RCD will trip in all of these cases at roughly 30mA.As BradC said if you use your body to bridge Active and Neutral then the RCD wont trip, but this is a highly unusual circumstance. The RCD will trip in all other cases (assuming it is wired correctly).

author: m100
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 01:26:11 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on November 16, 2014, 10:37:53 pmWhat is surprising is that grey never even figured in the phase colours used byanyEU nationuntilthe change!

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 03:18:00 pm
content: Yes I can see problems with using grey as a phase wire when white is used as instrumentation line color combine that with dirt ageing and poor light and you have a recipe for disaster.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 09:54:27 pm
content: From an Australian perspective, the worst for us is anyone using black as a phase colour.BTWOn the topic of colour confusion I have a moulded Hitachi "Australian" style plug taken from a desklamp.It has the Active conductor as blue (not light blue) and the neutral as brown. It has an inline switch on the blue as well.Byassumingthis was a normal Australian flexible cord with brown as active I managed to use this plug to blow up a DUT and with it my laptop.I still have the cord but have rendered it unusable.

author: briselec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 02:09:17 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on November 20, 2014, 09:54:27 pmThat's why you never ever make assumptions with electricity. Last time I checked, which was a few years ago now, there was no legal requirement in Australia as to which way active and neutral has to be connected to a plug top. Which means even if the brown had been connected to the inline switch you still needed to check whether it's the active or not. Don't assume the power point is wired the correct way either.

author: briselec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 02:20:05 am
content: Quote from: BradC on November 19, 2014, 10:58:15 pmI'm calling bullshit on that one. And fridge mechanics are not a closed trade, you only need a license for the gas and that only came in about 7 or 8 years ago for environmental reasons.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 06:02:58 am
content: Quote from: briselec on November 21, 2014, 02:20:05 amYou can call bullshit all you like, try getting a refrigerant handling license without doing a 4 year apprenticeship as a refrigeration mechanic and then come back and tell me I'm wrong. I've been trying for 5 years and been thwarted at every turn by the closed shop protectionist industry. Not that its an issue practically, as Arctick don't actually enforce anything, but the legislation and resulting rules in place to protect the industry is pretty tight. I can get a gas fitters ticket through TAFE, but I have to work full time for an electrical contractor to qualify to be trained as an electrician and I need 5 years full time as a fridgie to get a refrigerant handling license. I've done my research and spoken to about 7 registered training organizations across Australia to get my informed viewpoint. You seem to know more about it than I do, so tell me how I go about doing it as a 40 year old with current full time employment who can't afford to give up his income to re-train on an apprentices wage?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 06:45:49 am
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on November 21, 2014, 04:47:07 amIs it?And for your second and third phases? When you have no neutral, how obvious is it then?

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 05:29:44 pm
content: Gore - nice amp - takes me back to the sixties.

author: briselec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 09:56:16 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on November 21, 2014, 06:02:58 amYes you can't be an electrician unless you do an apprenticeship. That's just common sense for a trade that can easily kill people. I was calling bullshit on your statement that this is union driven trade protection. It's purely a safety issue.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 10:26:55 pm
content: Quote from: briselec on November 21, 2014, 09:56:16 pmIt really isn't common sense at all. To be an electrician you ought to be able to pass suitable written and practical tests, be issued with a certificate of competence, and to pass suitable refresher tests every few years to keep up with current code.There is really no need to undertake any particular mandated form of training structure to achieve the required competence.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 11:02:41 pm
content: QuoteI am an electrician but I got it via a 6 month night wiring course after I finished my EE degree. They must have stopped these courses.I think some of the dumbass electricians out there are more of a safety issue.Cant calculate maximum demand, cant work out the current carrying capacity of wire, cant estimate fault current.I agree it is a bit of a closed shop, and I am sure thats how the sparkies like it, but my biggest beef is that we have to purchase Australian Safety Standards if we want to have access to them on a job.Access to mandatory safety standards is one thing that the government should provide to everyone for free. Rather than having to buy from from SAI Global.People like to skimp on things, in this case it is best to make it unnecessary to skimp on safety.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 12:14:39 am
content: I'm not a qualified electrician. I did however learn a lot about electrical installation as a child, during my training as an Architect. and with much practical experience thereafter. I know I can work safely with house electrics and to a degree balance 3 phase discrimination on an estate. Would I? No! Insurance requirements, the law, and self preservation prevent me.Nevertheless I do get tee'd off with some of the draconic rules even though I do understand the reasons behind them. I'd quote Darwin awards if it weren't for 2nd & 3rd party collateral damage.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 05:29:16 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on November 21, 2014, 11:02:41 pmThe same applies here in the UK. What's worse is because the safety standards are expensive, many people buy pirated copies which are often incomplete, incorrect or out of date so it makes things worse. If the standards were freely downloadable, then there would be no demand for pirate copies.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 05:58:28 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on November 22, 2014, 05:29:16 pmIt's only about £60 for BS7671. That's cheaper than getting an electrician in to do the work if you're doing anything significant. We're still allowed to DIY our own electrical work, so not really an issue in the UK.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 07:40:14 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on November 22, 2014, 05:29:16 pmVisit your local library.Yes, they keep these things.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 08:08:55 pm
content: SteveG - In the UK you are very limited to what you are permitted to do without having a qualified electrician check the work. Furthermore, at least legally, material change has to be reported to the local council.For example anyone can rewire a house completely, but if you connect the new cabling to the mains without being appropriately qualified then you are breaking the law.At least part of the stated reason for this is that it is supposed to protect the local power distribution and potential future house-owners.If it weren't for the the fact that we don't all live in detached houses I'd be inclined to let Darwin add to his awards.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 08:11:58 pm
content: Quote from: Dave Turner on November 22, 2014, 08:08:55 pmNo.. you don't need qualifications.Certain bodies (NICEIC and friends) would like you to believe the only way to do electrical work is if you pay them for the privilege, but you can do anything you like in a private property, so long as you comply with the actual laws. The law more or less says you have to prove it's safe. Simply documenting the installation and testing are in accordance with the accepted regulations (BS7671) is sufficient. LABC notification is required for many tasks though, yes.There is much harping on about Part P this and Part P that. Let's quote Part P of the Building Regulations..Quote

author: EvilGeniusSkis
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 08:28:48 pm
content: In reference to the OP, I'd get breakers that can be locked out if you are working on that circuit as well as put labels @ the breakers stating what they control. I've always wondered why the breakers in houses can't be locked out, if I was an electrition I'd only ever install breakers that could be locked out just for peace of mind while working.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 09:16:16 pm
content: Monkeh - I sit to be corrected - I've been out of the immediate loop for some time - my interpretation was the prevalent understanding not so long ago. However I suspect that insurance companies might agree with my interpretation.Take Corgi registration for example.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 09:27:26 pm
content: Quote from: EvilGeniusSkis on November 22, 2014, 08:28:48 pmOne possibility is to lock the outer door of the breaker panel (mine has a clasp for a padlock--I can put my own lock on there and hold onto the key).

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 09:32:43 pm
content: Quote from: Dave Turner on November 22, 2014, 09:16:16 pmWell, Corgi are no longer relevant. As far as DIY gas work goes, well, the law:QuoteIn other words: DIY gas work is legalso long as you are competent, which is something which obviously must be verified by a suitable means (ie. qualifications). So far as I know there is no comparable requirement for DIY electrical work, only the need to prove it is done safely. Approved Document P (usually errornously referred to as Part P) details the approved methods for this (it is not, however, a document of law, merely an approved document detailing methods of complying with the law).

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 10:17:08 pm
content: QuoteYes we have ours in the library too.But on site it is much more practical to look up some particular distance or current rating, rather than just trying to remember.You need to have the rules right there.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 10:24:19 pm
content: Monkeh - I'm not going to get into a 'pissing contest' neither do I think you wish to. Your comment about 'competent' is most relevant. The question is what/who is considered competent. I tend to err on the side of 'not being sued'. In practice, as you stated, that means qualifications.http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/guides-and-advice/building-regulations/england/.Rules and interpretations change but physics largely doesn't - at least in the Newtonian universe.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 10:49:35 pm
content: Quote from: Dave Turner on November 22, 2014, 10:24:19 pmNo attempt at entering a pissing contest, merely stating the facts.I will apologise for actually missing a critical word in your first post, however. Still, you can do anything short of adding new circuits or substantially modifying them without notification or external inspection and testing.

author: EvilGeniusSkis
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 12:22:51 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on November 22, 2014, 10:17:08 pmbring a scanner with you to the library

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 12:24:12 am
content: Quote from: EvilGeniusSkis on November 23, 2014, 12:22:51 amThere has to be an app for this(Searches app store for IET wiring regs...)((Oh, and who/what TF are IET anyway? Where did IEE go?))

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 02:19:46 am
content: The UK is well ahead of us in Australia. There are less deaths per head of population from electrocution than in Australia.We are the most over-governed country on earth. I will waste $10,000 to replace an old brick garage with a new one - before one brick has been laid. (Council "fees", unnecessary costs, extortion, bureaucracy, no-can-do's etc). A lot of thiscomes from the state government, handed down to the self-serving councils.)Next weekend we have an state government election, where all residents over 18 are forced to vote, or pay a fine or go to jail. I won't vote because there is no-one worth voting for. I will simply get my name crossed off to avoid going to jail, then walk out.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 02:43:46 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on November 23, 2014, 02:19:46 amI wonder if that is because the population is allowed to do some level of home wiring, meaning it is done to a better standard than some blow in sparky, or that the population actually has half a clue what electricity even is, as this still scares me when i find out people i know regard it as magic.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 09:11:05 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on November 23, 2014, 02:19:46 amWrite Julian Assange at the bottom of the paper and put it in the box............

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 09:51:37 am
content: It used to be that the local electricity supply company would inspect the wiring of any property before connecting,even if you were moving into a house that was previously connected and you are just the new bill payer. This all changed when the EC said we had to have an open market so you could buy power from any company that set itself up to sell electricity.When my father built his own house he put in all the gas pipes and the gas fired boiler which runs on LPG. he was allowed to do this but the LPG supply company had to send its own fitter to make the final connection (which consisted of turning on the tap) and to fire up the boiler for the first time and check the flue worked correctly etc.I did the wiring which did not need any inspection by a qualified electrician or the local council as the supply was off grid, I did the wiring to the latest regulations at the time but as it was off grid as far as the powers that be were concerned I could have used bare wire hanging from nails in the wall.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 03:26:40 pm
content: Quote from: Dave Turner on November 22, 2014, 10:24:19 pmMonkeh has pretty much said everything that has to be said. Generally only new circuits and consumer unit replacements need you to get your work inspected. You're not going to get sued for modifications.

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 06:24:01 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 22, 2014, 09:27:26 pmGood suggestion. After the work is done, I'll secure the panel with a padlock.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 06:29:26 pm
content: MaybeIf that box only contains your electricity circuits then fit a padlock, but if there are other people's circuits in there as well you might need extra keys.Plus, how will they read the meters?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 07:08:24 pm
content: The meter is not inside the panel, it only contains the circuit breakers. But the suggestion is to lock the panel temporarily during the period you have isolated some circuits and while you are working on those circuits somewhere else inside the building. That prevents someone else coming along and turning the circuits back on while you are at work. You can also attach a note to the lock saying "work in progress--do not touch".This all is nothing more than common practice in industrial work environments.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 08:22:31 pm
content: Monkeh and SteveG - we're now on the same wavelength- it was just a matter of tuning.

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 08:44:26 pm
content: Well, after asking multiple people about this issue, who deal with mains electricity (let's call them electricians), I had multiple and quite different proposals. Some of them told me that nothing can be done. Others suggested running a third wire from my local panel, where all the neutral wires are tied together with the supposed "earth". A rather dangerous proposal, isn't it? I've looked around and couldn't find the grounding electrode of the building.I've been to see the main panel, where all the wires enter the building from the local transformer. There doesn't appear to be an electrode in there either. Some folks say those two main panels ought to be grounded! (photograph bellow). Others tell you it most likely doesn't exist. Nobody seems to really know anything. The lesson here is the usual one: don't make any assumption based on what people say. Observation and measurement - the only way!Anyway, the local agency, which looks after (pun intended) buildings like mine, are offering to punch in the ground electrode and rewire the panels in my portion of the building by separating neutral and earth conductors. The way it's suppose to be. Right now it sounds like the only solution. Essentially I'd be doing this only for myself. I really doubt anyone else would be interested in joining this little project. The price should be around 290 - 360 USD.After probing the electrical system of my building, the result is:Behold, the two mains panels of the building. Not much to see. Two main underground cables coming into the panel on the right from the transformer. A bunch of circuit breakers on the left and a whole lot of wires on the ceiling, routed all the way to sub panels. No electrode/grounding frame is visible. Maybe it's not supposed to be here? That's the story so far.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 08:59:03 pm
content: If you are on the ground floor, you can sink your own ground rod and use that in your distribution box as the green-wire safety ground.At the very least I would use RCCB (Residual-Current Circuit Breakers) to protect all the branches. Or RCD outlets. (See below)I just also learned about Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI) and I am seriously considering replacing most of my conventional circuit breakers with AFCI models.And with the addition of RCD (GFCI, Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupter) in places with water (kitchen, bath, laundry, outdoors)According to the Wikipedia article, in North America it is permissible to install RCD outlets on an un-grounded 2-wire circuits as the RCD (GFCI) does not need ground to protect properly.Maybe that would be a way of at least achieving safety in the absense of a proper green-wire safety ground.What kind of water pipes do you have? In some cases, the water pipes are used as the earth ground terminal if they are copper or iron or steel, etc.Clearly, that wouldn't work if they were plastic, etc.

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 09:13:43 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on December 02, 2014, 08:59:03 pmI'm on the third floor, but it's not an issue. The grounding conductor would run a little longer.I have ordered some RCD's already. The ones used in panels and receptacle-plug type, to test them out.Quote from: Richard Crowley on December 02, 2014, 08:59:03 pmThe water pipes are metal. Not sure whether it's iron or steel, but certainly not copper. There's continuity between the neutral/ground point in my sub panel and water pipes. I don't think this method of grounding is safe or legal though. If I'm not wrong, there's no guarantee that by using water pipes as a reference to ground you'd get a low resistance path to Earth. Especially if somebody replaced a portion of the piping with a non conductive material.

author: briselec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 09:16:03 pm
content: Is the transformer on the same property as the building? If so it may have been considered unnecessary to install another earth electrode at the building.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 09:19:22 pm
content: Quote from: gore on December 02, 2014, 08:44:26 pmBased on this article,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_systemmaybe your building has a TN-C or TN-C-S system?

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 09:19:27 pm
content: Quote from: briselec on December 02, 2014, 09:16:03 pmThe transformer is in a different building, located ~ 20 meters away.

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 09:26:17 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 02, 2014, 09:19:22 pmLooks like it's the TN-C earthing system. The neutral conductor and protective conductor functions are performed by a single wire."Risk of broken neutral" - highest. That's the problem with using my sub panel's neutral/ground point as the third conductor, isn't it? I'd get hot enclosures if neutral wire was cut.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 09:29:20 pm
content: TN-C is Not Good(tm).

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 10:04:26 pm
content: By adding a third conductor at the combined neutral/earth at my sub panel, this is what I'd get in case neutral was cut. An RCD wouldn't even trip.Drawing taken from YouTube video -

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 03:03:25 am
content: Is the Earth attached to the Neutral within the building? If so where?In Australia TN-C-S we can only attach the Neutral to the Earth wires within a building once, this has to be at the main switchboard.At this point we also attach to physical ground and also to the waterpipes if they are metal.I would try to find out what is your countries/suppliers Earthing System and get that implemented properly if you can.I am not sure how much you can protect yourself against a broken neutral on your incoming mains anyway. So I wouldn't worry to much about it if you can get your earthing system done to the local spec.These days I think the RCDs will protect your against most likely scenarios.The other big risk apart from electrocution is fire.Make sure all your cable joins are good and the cable is sensibly rated for the job.

author: gore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 02:38:35 pm
content: The earth is attached to neutral in every panel (main panel and every sub panel in the building), which makes it a TN-C system. I'll give my supplier a call about it to see what they have to say.

author: EvilGeniusSkis
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 01:05:26 am
content: I guess the lesson here is that if it aint broke don't look at it, unless you want a major project.

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2014, 11:12:46 pm
content: Quote from: gore on December 02, 2014, 08:44:26 pmif i were you i would try to convince the rest of the residents in that building to replace the complete electrical system. as the wires from the fuses is charred to a level which isnt safe anymore suggesting great levels of overloading its capacitylooks like the lower part of that enclosure has an earth busbar several yellow/grene looking wires are secured there. maybe look in the other cabinet where the 2 thick cables go into the thicker one maybe have an outher armoring which maybe used as an earth or neutral depends on the inner construction, if its a tn-c system must be a slitting somewhere around those 2 cabinets with a thick cable running somewhere alone

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2014, 03:35:52 pm
content: Could well be that the outer sheath of the incoming is used as the earth and is bonded to the earth stake at the sub station or an underground junction. That was how it was done in London many years ago, the sheath was used as an earth and made contact with the ground at junctions which were wrapped in lead soldered to the sheath the whole lot was then buried.