Magnet therapy device teardown - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: diodenschein
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 01:39:31 pm
content: Hi,I have the chance to poke around in an electronic magnet therapy device.Which breaks precisely after 300 therapies and has to get service ;-)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_therapyI'll try to make a Video out of it.Any suggestions what you would like to see?

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 02:01:05 pm
content: Hard to say when we don't have the slightest clue what it is?

author: diodenschein
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 02:36:54 pm
content: Fair enough.Basically it's a quite large control panel to which you connect a mat with magnetic coils.These apply "changing fields in good frequencies" to hurting areas.It's used by alternative practioners.If you ask me it's bogus. But it has lots of leds and buttons!

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 03:12:17 pm
content: What a surprise. A scam therapy device has a scam breakdown feature. It's a twofer.

author: ruffy91
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 03:29:44 pm
content: Scammers get scammed. Nothing wrong with that.

author: lapm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 03:43:48 pm
content: Would not suprise me if "maintenance" was nothing more then powering it up while jumper is shorted to reset counter in controller...

author: lapm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 03:47:17 pm
content: Quote from: diodenschein on August 21, 2015, 01:39:31 pmThe usual, electronics if there is any, quality of pcb work, theory how its generates these changing magnetic frequencies... Just because is scam device, docent mean you cant do good tear down of it...

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 03:49:14 pm
content: What's the make and manufacturer? Do you know?I spent a few years, on contract, designing magnetic therapy and ultrasound units for sports professions, horse and dog training.That was MANY years ago, but the company still sells quite a few. Nearly ALL of the users, well in the 1000s, swear by them, so I don't just dismiss it as fake.The company DID run extensive documented lab tests for a long time, and even though there were very positive results, we didn't have good enough test equipmentor sample size / time required to publish. I spent a LOT of effort on frequency, wave-shape and polarity tests on biological samples. The most promising resultswere with ultrasound treatment applied first, and then followed by mag therapy. And YES, there were "shonky" players in the game, and that seriously dilutedperceptions of the therapy. The greatest success was with bone fractures, increasing healing time markedly.I also studied biochem / pharmacology / organic chem in the early 70s, and even back then, we often ran interesting experiments on magnetic effects on cells / tissue etcback when there weren't many rules :-) ahh memories

author: diodenschein
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 01:03:27 am
content: The device is a ENZYMED MMFSG-5000 from a German manufacturer.I'll addd the Catalog/Datasheet at the end. (Sorry only found a German version, ask If you want anything translated)It's done I made a lot of measurements, photos and a video, I'll post them tomorrow morning. Overall it's designed quite nicely and actually does what's promised in the Datasheet:Quote@digsysQuoteBut didn't they implant coils and induce real currents through the fracture?Do you remember what typical field strengths were?This device is just a single winding coil you apply externally.Btw. I also found a pricelist.http://www.akku-partner.com/WebRoot/Sage/Shops/AJMedizintechnikGmbH43798224/4F94/1DCF/903E/3BA7/EBC1/0A0C/05EA/AF2C/Geraetetechnik_ENZYMED_professional.pdf

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 03:52:47 am
content: Quote from: diodenscheinNo problem, google translate to the rescue :-) I really only knew OZ manufacturers, and a few o/seas ones, this was 25+ yrs ago !That one is definitely very low power, probably good for limbs and bruises. Their speil "looks" ok :-), but many manufacturers back then would just copy others,that they knew had done research and just added 1 to the specs !! :-) Not saying this is the case here at all.Quote from: diodenscheinYou're stretching my memory here, but numbers in the order of 10-20A pulsed at 20VDC ring a bell. But then our blankets were quite huge, especially for horses,with approx 10-20 turns, depending on "depth" required. The BIG difference between these and "implanting coils" is -You can train any yoyo to use it, in seconds. We even had pre-programmed settings - just push a button. Fast to set up and use, practically anywhere.Like I said, an engineer I trained way back then still manufactures them, but if I rang to get details, I'd likely be stuck with helping in a new design :-)You can estimate the gauss by those figures I gave.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 01:51:15 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on August 22, 2015, 06:11:30 amThose magnetic "therapy" things range from finger rings and bandages with permanent magnets, up to big active electronic devices.@diodenschein initially gave no indication what he was talking about in a broad range of possibilities.

author: diodenschein
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 08:00:00 pm
content: Hi,I did some Pictures and measurements of theENZYMED MMFSG-5000 ProfessionalWhat I can say is It actually generates a signal via DDS and connects that via a relay matrix to the different Applicators.In this case I only had the small mat wich only has to pins on the DB9 connected.That coil measures 3Ohm and according to the manual is 100µT max.The Wallplug is 15V, 1A.I tried to dump the firmware but it's protected.Prices:MMFSG-5000 1400€Applicator 250€Power supply! 60€

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 08:15:13 pm
content: It is not using 0.9% isotonic water solution, and as such is a fake. Here is a link to a company who makes real stuffhttp://www.logoarena.com/logo-contests/alternum-n6175You cant beat "extraterrestrial technology."

author: diodenschein
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 09:43:28 pm
content: This is P3 "Fitness" measured at the DB9 connector.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 11:45:05 pm
content: The electronics is a lot "fancier" than our days :-) and it sure is a HECK of a lot lower power than our units .. I wouldn't think it would have much effect in most cases.Our blankets / wraps (intentionally) got warm, which helped in the treatment. And before the next clueless comments appear - yes cooling down is better for reducinginflammation etc, but the aim here is to stimulate electrical activity via alternating / varying magnetic field. And like ALL "medicines", there is a varying degree of effectiveness.The waveforms are similar to ours, even 25+ yrs later, it's a balance of #pulses / reversals / and allowing "rest" periods, so as not to trigger "defences".Interesting tear-down, thanks - just ignore the expert internet warriors, who are here to save us :-)PS: Our biggest market were racing dogs and horses, where the placebo effect didn't really apply :-)

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 12:12:12 am
content: Quote from: digsys on August 25, 2015, 11:45:05 pmIt won't have any effect in any cases. It's woo. Bollocks.The placebo effect very much applies to animals, many intersting studies have been carried out...https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-there-a-placebo-effect-for-animals/

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 12:24:31 am
content: If the field gets strong enough you can speed up and slow down capillary blood flow byquite impressive numbers, it's not inconceivable that the extra pumping action could help bloodflow near injuries (on the other hand it's not inconceivable it could cause problems either). I think you can speed up arterial flow significantly too if the field lines are parallel, but hard to see how that would help much.

author: BurningTantalum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 06:09:17 am
content: BUT- the manufacturer still had to construct this guff:Alternum is a morphogenetic field based energy medicine device made 100% in the U.S., utilizing state-of-the-art proprietary vortex-based technology based upon the vortex-based mathematics of Marko Rodin and research from P.E.A.R. (Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research). Alternum scans the morphogenetic (form-holding) energy fields surrounding every cell in the body; it can pinpoint any imbalances and disturbances within the client and program the balancing, scalar energy information into the 0.9% isotonic water solution thereby delivering the balancing information to the client’s immune system. Alternum also creates a personalized EMF protection bracelet/pendant that protects the client from electrosmog and geopathic stress.-to try to market it. Even a horse wouldn't believe that load of horse sh!t.

author: pga123
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 03:05:37 pm
content: I first used one of these devices in a cancer clinic in Germany. After my visit to the clinic I purchased one and used it regularly. After six months' use the cancer on my pelvic bone disappeared totally. It is very effective in increasing the flow of oxygen into cells and CO2 out of them.I have used it about 3 times a day for over a year, over 1000 times with no issues whatever. The units at the clinic get used 10 times a day and have done for years.Please be sure you know what you're talking about before slamming an honest company with a quality product that does what it says.

author: diodenschein
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 03:15:14 pm
content: Hi pga123,good to hear your cancer disappeared totally. Can you tell more details which Applicator you used?How do you know "It is very effective in increasing the flow of oxygen into cells and CO2 out of them." did you measure that somehow?And the question ist's if it helped you or not. It's if it generally helps or doesn't, you can never prove it was the reason your cancer went away, because you don't know how it would have ended without the device. For me I assume it would have ended the same way.Thank you and be well.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 03:31:35 pm
content: I'm not convinced by the last couple of posts (pga123 and diodenschein).Even if it was true (which I'm not convinced about). There is nothing to scientifically indicate that the suspect device had anything to do with it.Maybe the doctors succeeded and/or the medicines worked and/or it went away on its own accord.pga123 could be connected to diodenschein, for all I know.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 04:37:09 pm
content: Quote from: pga123 on January 13, 2017, 03:05:37 pmSays the guy linked to an Internet marketing consulting company.I myself am a use of a device called the Skenar and these are no joke. But as others have said there are plenty of scams out there. In fact the company that originally sold us our Skenar also sold fake products because they were none the wiser like a program called computer clear which apparently created healthy electromagnetic waves to counteract those emitted by your computer monitor back in the CRT days. I contact them asking for an explanation and putting forward my views on how the program could or couldn't work and they said that due to the technicalities of my questions there would have to ask the manufacturer who failed to respond. Clearly a placebo product. An icon in your taskbar and you think you are protected.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 05:56:32 pm
content: Two newbie posters, one exceptionally positive about a therapy method that's often exploited by scammers and 'woo' merchants, the other 'tearing down' a product, hmm...Should this be moved to the snake oil thread?

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 06:04:21 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 13, 2017, 04:37:09 pmNot sure if trolling or...http://www.synergy-health.co.uk/skenar-therapy/skenar-therapy/Looks like a joke to me..

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 06:16:22 pm
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on January 13, 2017, 06:04:21 pmA moderator trolling, surely not? Yes that is the same device being referred to however that is probably the website of a practitioner. As these things are completely unregulated you can buy it from a perfectly reputable company and do as you please with it.But I can assure you that the Skenar is a serious device, I personally have used one for years and other family members have as well. It was originally developed for veterinary use and knowing this I did in fact try it out on our dog that was dying of an infection. Unfortunately because I was very busy with work and did not realise how bad he was I started treatment too late and he was not eating or drinking. But when I did treat him he actually got up and started to drink a little bit and was more active. Sadly he died though and if only I had started treating him earlier.I have used it to alleviate muscle pain around my eyes due to eyestrain, my grandmother use it for many years and way outlived doctors expectations and I have used in the past also to treat cracks in my skin which I would get in the winter and would never go away due to the cold and damp. Granted there is always an element of placebo with any form of medical device or medication but this device goes somewhat beyond placebo. It is also fair to say that if you were treated with this device and decided that it would not work chances are it probably would not as it stimulates your immune system and it is your brain that controls your immune system. Needless to say with or without the device I generally fair quite well with things like colds and flu even though I don't have the yearly flu jab because I expect my immune system to look after me.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 06:25:41 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 13, 2017, 06:16:22 pmIs it Scenar or Skenar ?The internet (ok google) seems to think it is Scenar.http://invet.net/scenar.phpExample:

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 06:42:03 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on January 13, 2017, 06:25:41 pmFurther serching, seems to show that they may be useable interchangebly.I.e. you can call it Skenar or Scenar.If that is the case, then Sorry!I did not realize.http://scenar.biz/scenar-resources/scenar-articles/scenar-articles-general/what-is-scenar.htmlQuote

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 06:42:50 pm
content: It was originally russian so they may have changed the spelling. They are made by ritmedic in lthe netherlands so it's whatever they call it.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 06:46:09 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 13, 2017, 06:42:50 pmThanks for the reply.A quick look, seems to indicate that Ritmedic, use the Scenar or RitmScenar version of the naming scheme.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 06:54:25 pm
content: They make it under license from the Russian developer.Sent from my phone so mind the autocorrect.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 07:02:17 pm
content: http://www.ukscenar.co.ukThis one looks reallycool. A bit like something out of Star Trek. Assuming it works, it looks good.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 07:03:53 pm
content: I did see the orignal devices (and I have an original one that is awful assembly quality) were infact advertised as star treck technology is here.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 08:21:57 pm
content: QuoteFunny, I would think decreasing healing time would be the more desirable outcome for such a device?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 08:25:31 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on January 13, 2017, 07:02:17 pmSee i don't think that is genuine, it does not say scenar on it and this is the website of the manufacturer which does not have one:http://www.ritmedic.com/products/

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 08:38:26 pm
content: in fact they are not selling scenars, it's another device probably made by trying to reverse engineer the scenar as it mirrors the scenars but looks sexier (they also have a pro and home device - what a coincidence). They have used the domain name to catch search results so I'd not trust them.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 08:48:26 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 13, 2017, 08:38:26 pmI tried searching for fake ones (via google), and I'm a bit confused.Are they saying that there are fake COPIES or that the whole thing is fake ?It seems to say something about the adverts being banned in Australia.On the other hand, just because it is maybe not 100% absolutely scientifically proven (yet). Does not necessarily mean that it does not work to an extent, for some people (but it might NOT). I guess we are potentially getting into this grey area, where there is a conflict as to if something is a money scam or if it partly/fully works, as advertised.Examples:http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/scenar.htmThis website seems to list it (Scenar therapy) as being an unproven technique (Index of Questionable Treatments):https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/treatmentindex.htmlQuote

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 08:58:44 pm
content: Very low current DC, microamps - as far as I can tell- via electrodes on the scalp, is being used in battery powered commercial devices for athletes while they train, for example, its supposed to accelerate development and training in various fine motor skills. Its called "tDCS"I would like to see a tear down of one of those devices.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 09:09:19 pm
content: I don't know if there has been any question about fake devices. But given what these things cost and given the actual cost of making them I personally would be wary.The Scenar UK website only has the word Scenar in its domain name and the about the therapist page says that she trained in Russia in Scenar therapy. Yet the rest of the website talks about devices from two other companies. The operation of the device sounds similar and like the Scenar they are offering a home and professional devices but for more money. The other thing that flags to me that they are trying to oversell this thing is that the prices whilst more expensive than the original Scenar are shown without the VAT. What home user is going to buy the home device and not pay VAT? If they were honest surely they will show the price with and without so that the odd professional could see the price without VAT.I say the Scenar is the original because it is. This thing was devised in Russia about thirty years ago and I think it was hoped it would be taken onto their space program due to the fact it would eliminate the need for carrying a lot of medication which once ingested is hard to get out of the water as the water is recycled on the space station. I heard tell I don't know how true it is that because they wanted the machine to be waterproof as well it kind of fell through. I don't know how it went from being a space research project to be a commercial one but initial units were supplied from Russia. The one I have which only recently broke down (well with little to character row display has broken the rest of the device probably still works) was made in Russia, it uses Atmel microcontrollers and has Russian versions of logic gate chips. As soon as I spot it again I will take some photos and post them but they are obviously not representative of the newer units which are now made in the Netherlands on licence.The machines were never given any certification for their healing capabilities (although they don't claim to directly heal you it is your own immune system which they stimulate the response of). As the Scenar UK website loudly trumpets for their own non-Scenar devices the Scenar is also CE approved for pain relief only. I think at the end of the day this just means that it was examined and declared safe. For example the instructions say that you cannot use a rechargeable battery and the reason for this is that rechargeables were deemed to be more likely to leak but there is actually no technical reason why you can't use a rechargeable battery and we did for many many years.It is a shame these things have not been taken seriously but then I'm sure the drug companies are running scared of this sort of technology. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I have seen for myself that these devices have merit. I'm not saying they will completely eliminate the need for tablets and that they will cure everything but they certainly have merit.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 09:32:04 pm
content: I see. Thanks for the detailed explanation. That has significantly improved my understanding.The original Russian device that you have, regardless of how well it works. Is probably way too juicy a concept/name/device-type for fakers/scammers to leave alone. So it does not surprise me at all that there are fakes floating about of the original Russian units (and later, official ones).I have a degree of respect for Russian stuff. E.g. I have heard really good things about Russian optical's. Produced after the second world war. Where Russia grabbed the optical factories and highly experienced workers, from Germany. Making a successful industry in Russia, making things like microscopes and binoculars. Which I have heard, had a very good quality, for the price they charged.They even managed to improve their optical stuff, later as well.They had really good, early successes in the early (1950's), space race with America. Even wining it as regards being the first country to put a man in space. Which considering that Russia has massively smaller finances than America, is an amazing achievement, all on its own.So it is quite possible the original Russian device and the later official versions, have merit. Let's hope so. I don't know enough about the device, to form my own opinion, as regards how good it is.Even if I did, I'mNOTan expert on such devices (especially since it is medical), so would have to rely on others, to say how good it is.But certainly significantly inferior and unauthorizedFAKESof the original devices. Are VERY unlikely to work. Perhaps explaining some of the bad articles I linked to earlier in this thread.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 09:37:49 pm
content: Well I don't know if there has been any subsequent work by other people. They have not made any secret about the fact that the device uses feedback from the body in the form of the change of skin impedance. And I think this is mentioned on the Scenar UK website as well.So on the one hand somebody could have just stuck a scope onto a Scenar device and replicated the signals or they could have done some R&D of their own and worked out how to do the feedback bit. The frequencies and voltages and other parameters are widely made available about the Scenar device. Apparently the whole thing is based on acupuncture which I know absolutely nothing about.The thing that turns me off about the Scenar UK website is that they are not selling Scenar's so he rather sounds like they're trying to use the name of something else to get their own thing sold and at a higher price. The Scenar is do indeed look like something out of the 80s where they began. The unit I have is awful the case just about fit together properly. The units made later in the Netherlands have a much better case design and by the looks of the latest units on offer on their website they have finally done a proper job but they have not pushed the boundaries on the look and feel and technology. Surely for what these things cost they could put colour displays in and nicer displays than the rather coarse once they have. It looks like the competitors who seem to have copied the idea have also sharpened up on the aesthetics which will of course attract people.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 09:47:05 pm
content: QuoteCan we get somerealscience terminology here that has been studied?Skin resistance is real, biofeedback is potentially real if they can say what/where they are injecting.Energy blocks is not a legitimate term, nor is curing "disease" in general.Things like tDCS, TMS, LLLT have been scientifically studied and show results (not that it means they will cure all, and there aren't side effects).First time I have heard of this tech.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 09:51:10 pm
content: Well one thing to bear in mind with the Scenar is that the Russians are actually a pain in the arse. They have very grudgingly given out information and translations of the original Russian instructions are appalling. If you actually get a copy of original instructions they are virtually impossible to understand even in English.I don't know how they came up with the basic waveform they inject but they do show the waveform in instructions. I would assume they measure skin impedance by measuring the voltage they are applying and the current going into the skin? I've not actually analyse the circuit of the one I have as I don't generally take apart things that cost nearly 2000 pounds and have them hanging around whilst I dissect the circuit. But now that it is broken I might get a chance to have a look at it who knows if my dad agrees I can send it to Dave as technically it belongs to my dad although he has one of the slightly more modern units which are also out of date now.Of course it does beg asking where did you get that information? Due to the lack of information from the Russians a lot of people in the UK and Europe have come up with all sorts of rubbish. And as I have already explained it is one thing getting the device from the manufacturer and it is another thing getting it from somebody else and what they might be selling it as or telling you how it works or what you can do with it. I've heard all sorts of crap about the Scenar which sounds nothing like the stuff we read in the original manuals.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 09:55:58 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 13, 2017, 09:37:49 pmAs Electronics hobbyists (or better), we are well aware that having lots of flashing Leds, displays on the unit, and if it comes in a very impressive/shiny/smooth case. DoesNOTin any way mean that it is any good or anything.So the fact that the one you have at the moment, has little of the above (shiny case, flashing Leds/displays etc), probably increases the chances that it has maybe got some real functionality to it.I wonder how complicated/sophisticated the program and hardware are, if we had the full disassembly and schematics (obviously this is not going to happen). Hopefully it is performing sensible functionality.I remember bio-feedback was a big thing in many hobbyist Electronic magazines, in the 1970s and 1980s.I do have to admit that if it has a very high price (compared to what you get inside the unit). That would make me doubt its effectiveness.Anyway, I've heard that even if something does not really work. It can still be very beneficial if you believe in it (placebo effect, mentioned by other(s) in this thread). So you have that as a powerful backup solution. Even if it is eventually proved to not work. Hopefully it does work, anyway.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 09:59:54 pm
content: Well I remember how upset my grandfather got who bought the very original units which I have here broken when I pointed out that despite the fact this thing costs around 1800 pounds at the time it actually had twenty quid's worth of parts in it. I had to quickly explain that no doubt most of what you were paying was for the research that had gone into it which produced the software running in the processor.This theme was designed so long ago that the little screens with standard interfaces probably didn't even exist then. My assumption with it having two Atmel microcontrollers is that one is driving the screen and one is generating the signals. It was actually quite easy to reverse engineer as it's a very basic to layer board doesn't even have any silkscreen I don't think. It's pretty crusty but it was built in the early 90s. I've not seen inside the slightly later unit and I've certainly not seen one of the latest models. No I don't think they have made much effort to make them look good as they never had to. You either accepted that they worked or you didn't. No doubt these newer units shown on the Scenar UK website which claim to come from Germany were designed from the ground up more recently and have been specifically aimed at the consumer market rather than the military or space agencies.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 10:06:09 pm
content: Quote from: digsys on August 21, 2015, 03:49:14 pmFor long time i found a book that the author explained the regeneration and healling experiments that he did with animals using low currents electrics and magnetic fields.The book name is "The Body Electric: Electromagnetism and the Foundation of Life"https://www.amazon.es/Body-Electric-Electromagnetism-Foundation-Life/dp/0688069711

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 04:29:33 am
content: Would anyone like to buy some magic beans? They will cure cancer with their resonant electromagnetic scalar zero-point biocurrents...

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 07:37:24 am
content: To be honest, reading this thread helps me understand how Trump got voted in. There is a sucker born every minute, that's for sure.Sent from my phone using Tapatalk

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 07:49:44 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on January 14, 2017, 07:37:24 amWas it any/all of my posts you were referring to ?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 08:22:14 am
content: maybe he's taloking about me. Don't worry. I am no fool.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 08:35:50 am
content: Quote from: MK14Don't bother getting into a debate with them, it won't serve any purpose. Unfortunately, you often find self-proclaimedauthoritariansin these forums... and yet, most likely, these sameexpertsare likely installing solar-pathways in their driveways as we speak :-)I did spend several years examining effects of magnetism / fields on tissues / bone structures, but it seems some people can fast track all that in a few mins :-)Our results showed excellent promise, which would have been enough for major testing, but that takes a shltload of $ and time, which we didn't have. YMMV

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 08:38:10 am
content: The Scenar has nothing to do with magnetics

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 08:56:49 am
content: If you checked my posts before, I was referring to a wave-shaped electrically generated EM field, not swishing magnets around. similar to the Scenar.I wish people would read a bit more before replying, like I do :-)

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 09:18:35 am
content: Quote from: digsys on January 14, 2017, 08:35:50 amOn similar lines to your experiences (if I understand you correctly). The problem with new/upcoming or partially beneficial treatments/medicines/techniques is that even if they fully work, don't have any bad side effects and are cost effective (affordable). To officially get new medicines/medical-machines and stuff approved, with patient trials and proper scientific analysis. Takes a very long time (maybe even decades), can cost huge amounts of money and even after all that work. May still not be 100% approved/liked by all doctors and hospitals.My dilemma is that there are potentially four types of such medical devices:(1)...Scientifically/medically proven and accepted things. E.g. Your typical Blood Pressure measuring device.(2)...Something which does indeed work, either fully (100%) or to a useful/viable extent. But which nobody has spent the (sometimes) huge resources of money/time and other things. To get the thing properly tested and/or testing is too problematic for other reasons. E.g. The "improvements" are too subjective (e.g. Mental Health improvement medication), needing to ask the patients about if they feel better, rather than easily scientifically measurable results, such as blood tests.(3)...Something which doesNOTwork. But the proper tests/investigations/experiments have not been completed yet.BUTthere is absolutely no price gouging or dishonesty in the people involved with the new medicine/equipment/tests etc. It is just that they don't know yet, that it (sadly) does not work.(4)...Obvious or somewhat obvious scams/fakes/cheats/dishonest-claims etc etc. The people selling the stuff, actually know the item is completely fake/bogus and non-functional. Yet they decided to sell it (dishonest/scammers) anyway.tl;drHence IDON'Twant to dismiss all claims of possible new undiscovered medical equipment/breakthroughs. BecauseNOTall of them are no (4). Some of them might be no's (2) or (3), so we haven't got to the point, where we accurately know how useful/good it is yet.If we went for no (4) all the time. We potentially would slow down or even stop the development/creation of new and useful medical inventions and stuff.E.g. The MRI scanner is a very useful piece of fairly modern medical equipment. If during its initial trails/development/creation people would say it was fake/scam/rubbish. Then we may not have had the useful medical advances of MRI scanners.

author: cheeseit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 10:04:43 am
content: I dismiss most, if not everything, alternative until it has been proven using scientific methods by capable entities and with large enough sample sizes. My mother in law is into all kinds of things like grounding and homeopathy () and while I laugh at the notion of things like memory of water, I very much believe in the power of placebo. It is very powerful and if you believe that it works, then there is a significant chance that it will, no matter what the rest of us think, however temporary it may be. Placebo is however not without problems since it can lead to sick people feeling healthy and not seeking qualified help in time.Nice teardown btw., appreciated.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 10:27:27 am
content: even tablets have placebo ans are tested for such. Just becausde they pass the placebo test does not mean that the average user get an amount of placebo along with genuine action from the medicine.The average Joe blogs prefers a tablet to something else so that is what medicine seems to focus on and doctors are driven down that road too. My optometrist told me that visual stress does not exist and did not want to have my glasses tinted for me but I insisted, he decided that it was a coincidence of other conditions, yet all I have is one long sighted eye and one short sighted eye. I can't see how they combine to make seeing stuff through a blue tint better for me which it is as I have found, and no it's not placebo, placebo does not get rid of thumping headaches or create an immediate sense of releif.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 07:28:51 pm
content: After reading this I had to say something: :-)Magnet therapy work for some people very well, others start to feel like they're gonna throw up, and for some it has no effect.I'm one of those where the therapy has no effect. But this does not mean it does not work.A friend of mine has a lot of aching all over his body. He was extremely skeptical to magnet therapy (actually he's very skeptical towards anything not scientifically proven ), but he wanted to give it a shot. For him the magnets he used helped ease the pain. I have no idea what caused this effect and why it worked for him.Whether this magnet therapy mat does it's job or not I have no idea, but magnet therapy can work and I don't think it's placebo.EDIT: It is difficult to prove for or against for this kind of devices.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 08:47:08 pm
content: The bottom line is has there been any controlled, double-blind studies that prove its effectiveness? In this case it would be easy to do such studies (not so for all non-pharmacologic therapies).Anecdotal evidence has no weight.Of course if someone feels it is working for them than that's fine - for them. In this case I cannot see that it would be doing any harm - except perhaps to their bank account.While if it does work it would be nice to understand the physiologic basis for its effectiveness, that is not necessary - as long as it's effectiveness is demonstrated in repeatable, controlled studies.My BS radar lights up when I see pseudo-scientific explanations given for how something is "working".Western allopathic medicine has lots of shortcomings and the pharmaceutical companies have way to much sway for sure. This leads to lots of people wanting something, anything, to cure their aches and pains or worse, their serious illnesses. The trouble arises when the alternative therapy causes harm (true for traditional treatments as well) or when they forsake proven, traditional treatments for alternative therapies - sometimes with fatal results.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 08:50:52 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on January 14, 2017, 08:47:08 pm+1

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 09:29:03 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on January 14, 2017, 08:47:08 pmAlthough to me, it is obvious that the following is a 100% genuine/honest electronics engineering device. Somebody who knows nothing about electronics, may be forgiven for thinking that the video is complete gobbledygook nonsense.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2017, 01:45:18 am
content: QuoteJust ask Steve Jobs about that. Oh wait....

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2017, 06:15:53 pm
content: I tried to avoid posting a rant.. but I'm sure admin will delete it if needs be. Skip down to tldr if you want a post more on-topic.When medical 'devices' that use electrical stimulation or rather 'active treatment' rather than just sensing something, there is often interest because it is far easier to create a circuit to produce specific voltage/current/waveforms than it is to synthesize drugs and the cost of the treatment is low. This makes trials somewhat cheaper, but still suffers the flaws that 'high quality' studies suffers from, that is, developing an effective sham//placebo treatment for comparison, and the metrics used, eg: a questionnaire rather than any objective measurement. It is why there is significantly more research for such devices in psychology, where there are very few objective measures, where the 'gold standard' is a set of questions with ratings out of 10 - and an area that has a reputation for being full of irreproducible findings.Most evidence is anecdotal which *can* point towards some effect if it has an effect on something measurable. The body is electro-chemical, and the small signals between cells have been implicated in wound healing, fetal development, and limb regeneration in animals. (https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23331050-200-grow-with-the-flow-how-electricity-kicks-life-into-shape/) Coupled with the ease of controlling electrical signals, we can all see the appeal of such research. But it seems many just *assume* that the research has nailed down the mechanisms, and come up with 'magic waveforms' or 'specific body frequencies'. It hasn't. And even if there are certain 'specifics', surely it would vary based on the person? With so much variation in skin conductivity, size, body composition, immune reactions to think there is a nice simple 'magic waveform' that is a cure-all is at best, silly.The fact it was made in Russia means... what? I'll admit, during the space race the Russians had some great engineering, which was only slightly more dangerous than the US. But for some it seems to add an air of mystery, none of the baggage western tech has that we've all heard of.. it must be unique. I have no doubt the Russians conducted research into electro-medical devices, so has the west - they would often copy what the other was researching as to not seen to be outdone, that is why the US had some laughable research into 'remote viewing' and telekinesis. If you can get the enemy to waste its resources by copying your bogus research, job done.What doesn't help the case for these devices is what they have been promoted for. Often very vague symptoms that the medical community doesn't know as much as the public thinks it knows. Pain for example: chronic pain is a global problem with a substantial proportion of patients being told that no medical cause can be found. They also claim it helps with problems that are remarkably common, skin problems, infections, 'candida' (a red flag for pseudo science, as many seem to think this is to blame for absolutely everything), fatigue, depression, anxiety.Note with the exception of skin problems, the rest have no objective measure, only the patient knows exactly what they feel, and so, very difficult to measure - but also very easy to influence just by changing the language one uses, or daily activities, or how the patient thinks (interpretation of the symptoms). And as for skin problems - they often do clear up on their own, and by using conductive gels that some 'devices' require, along with washing that off can itself help clear up skin irritations.So whilst the reports of helping with pain, or vague issues, it just muddies the waters and provides no 'target' for research to look into, thus its pretty much just seen as pseudo-science. Those who are convinced it helps them have 'seen it for themselves' and so either assume that the medical community knows about it, and supresses it (conspiracies...) or, that they dont' know anything. Thus the big divide, and the fact pseudoscience has been on the rise for many years. It is extremely hard to disprove one of these things, or rather, prove that is does not have any beneficial effect - I suspect the placebo effect is pretty strong as there is a futuristic appeal to a 'electrical device' that implies it is cutting edge and must be far better than a 'pill' as pills have been around for decades and are associated with side effects.Also magnetic devices, especially for pain, often get use in veterinary because there are less restrictions on treatments for animals and so it doubles up as a form of study as well as letting the animals owners think their pet is getting the best care. This does not prove they work. But it also does not prove they don't. I am sure there are many anecdotes regarding dogs and cats where owners say 'oh they've perked up a lot! that medication must have worked' - but you don't really know if it was that, or if they just had a good day.. or that you give the medication wrapped in chicken (which generally gets a dogs tail wagging).Also note that the recent rise of tDCS is fueled mostly by hobbyists or those into 'nootropics'. Despite the apparent complexity of some devices, they pretty much just put a constant current of 0.1-2mA between electrodes that are placed in various locations on the scalp. These days you can get bluetooth enabled ones, so you can control the 'montage' from your phone!Proponents often quote DARPA research where learning times for specific training was apparently reduced - a flawed practice anyway, because you are testing someone, then training them, then testing them again. Gaining traction with amateurs, fueled by the fact there is a ever-growing number of studies into it... its a culture - not science.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_direct-current_stimulation#ResearchUntil there is an accepted mechanism of action, with specific predictions and significant results in less-than-vague areas, I'm pretty sure that both the 'believers' and 'skeptics' will remain in their camps.tldr;As for the topic, I'd very much like to see a teardown of the scenar device. Firstly, its a teardown! Secondly, it isn't a particularly common application, so it wouldn't just be 'how they implemented it' but also what 'it' is. And thirdly, if it was reproducible, I am sure there will be some hobbyists somewhere who would knock up a prototype, try it, and if there is an effect, hopefully it will promote *actual* medical research. By keeping things 'secret' manufacturers are either aware that it is all snake oil, and use its 'secrecy' for marketing (like the appeal of some mysterious fruit from the rain forest that can reduce wrinkles!). Or, paranoid about the 'secret' being stolen, and sold by big medical corporations, helping patients and making the world a better place...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2017, 06:46:27 pm
content: Another PoVMedical devices need an official approval to be applied to patients. Any device not able to cause any harm, i.e. providing no or only a very minimal effect, doesn't need an approval. Take the stimulation current therapy for example. There are medical versions with approval used by physicians, and there are "zappers" for consumers (providing the sensation of a 9V battery).

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2017, 06:48:11 pm
content: @BuriedcodeNice and long rant, but very good talk.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2017, 06:59:58 pm
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on January 15, 2017, 06:15:53 pmWhy should it get deleted? It was a well reasoned piece. As soon as I find what I did with the thing I'll take some pictures. As far as teardown goes it's just a two-part plastic case with one circuit board inside it so it's not that complex.One thing you do need to be cautious of when trying to critique this type of technology is that the manufacturers will produce one thing and sell it to distributors who will then potentially call it something totally different. I have seen plenty of pseudoscientific words and explanations from people selling the Scenar but if you actually read Scenar material it is nothing like that although it is hard to understand granted. All I can say is that we have used several in the family for many years now and we are quite sure there is an effect from them but we don't go over the top in our enthusiasm. For example I will happily tell you that the Scenar will not cure a headache at least in my case. This is because if I have a headache it's because I'm worried about something or upset about something. No medication except for brute force painkillers that override my body's chemistry against my will is going to deal with that, I have to deal with it so I don't expect the Scenar to cure a headache. It will speed up the effects of having something like the flu where you have a temperature because it speeds up your bodies immune system. Unfortunately shortly after mine broke I got the flu and I was dicky for a whole week. I was only off work for a day but I'm quite certain that I spent at least another two days after that with a light temperature and still not feeling up to doing too much work although I went in. Previously if I was unwell in that way I would use the Scenar and I would be home for one day and back to work the next fully recovered. This is of course just my personal experience but I think it's a damn sight more than placebo. As I said earlier as things are I do expect my immune system to do its job and always have done ever since I discovered that I had an immune system. I never had to take too much medication and if I do have something like the flu or a temperature I just go to bed and sweat it out and if the problem gets to my nose or throat I might take some Lemsip's.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 12:40:40 am
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on January 15, 2017, 06:15:53 pmDo you seriously think they wouldn't take this into account?Double blind placebo control means you have people *thinking* they were treated and then testing them. This way you compare improvement with treatment to improvement without treatment, a legitimate comparison. If they didn't do that, then no the study should not be trusted, although it is still interesting preliminary research.QuoteA treatment/drug doesn't have to have a known mechanism of action. Or even if it does it can be found years after being effective and prescribed, that the actual mechanism is uncovered. Feel free to be a skeptic or believer, whatever, or, accept that research exists and effects are clearly present. Even if it is not ready for mainstream use:Quote

author: hfleming
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 07:08:32 am
content: Long time lurker this side.I have some neurological issues due to an inoperable and untreatable skull base tumor. Nothing the doctors can do for me. To ma e a very long story short, I use my own designed electrotherapy devices, and for now at least, it enables me to live a life as close to normal as what can be expected. For the last 3 I have been using different magnetic pulses and wave forms applied to different areas on my head and neck, and went from being unable to open my eyes (i built my first model with tape holding my eyes open), getting seizures every couple of days, and had breathing arrests every other day to having an almost normal life.There is actually a lot of peer-reviewed research on electrotherapy. Just use google-scholar to find it. If anybody wants more info, pm me, and I will give more info.For those of you that say it is all placebo, explain to me how my brain knows when the battery of my device is flat whilst it is in my pocket, or when a wire is off. I have done also blind-tests on myself to prove to myself that it is not placebo. An example is, when my eyes refuse to listen, only a pulse burst with the correct waveform, polarity, correct frequencies would work. To test it, I wrote some software for the device, controlled by a ATTiny, to randomly change the parameters and by logging the press of a pushbutton when I can open my eyes. I cycled through 20 different program settings, of which only one worked and stored the program running as well as the button-presses in EEPROM. Weirdly enough, when I dumped the contents of the EEPROM and read it, the onliest time I pressed the button, was when the correct paramters were used for the stimulation. I also had other people change the program settings (a buch of DIP-switches), or switch the power off, without me looking, same outcome, only if the correct parameters were applied , my eyes would open...If that is still the placebo-effect working, maybe we understand the placebo effect wrong.I have looked at a lot of electrotherapy stuff available on-line, and I agree, there are a lot of snake-oil devices, but the fact is, there are a lot that works, and there are a lot of studies done by independent parties, universities, physiotherapists, etc that shows it works.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 08:37:16 am
content: Quote from: diodenschein on January 13, 2017, 03:15:14 pmFrom a purely intuitive point of view, that would exactly do the opposite, helping cancer cells to reproduce even faster.

author: hfleming
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 04:12:44 pm
content: Hmmmm about the making cancer cells grow faster.her is currently a study on about using electrotherapy for killing certain kinds of cancer.. the thing is, electrotherapy can do both harm and good, much as any standard medical therapy... you can OD on Asperine, or it can help you, etc....If you read the book "the body electric" by Robert Becker and Gary Seldon, you might get an idea about the possibilities we are talking about here. He was a mdeical doctor, and also ran a series of articles in Wireloss world in the '70's about EM pollution.Another great resource is the site run by prof. Jaakko Malmivuo (electronic engineer) from the university n Aalto, Finland. His wbesite is at the biolectromagnetism portalwww.bem.fiAnother website run by Professor Tim Watson with thousands of studies.http://www.electrotherapy.orgRead and investigate, and tell me if you still think it is all snake oil.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 06:01:48 pm
content: There's no question electricity can be used in one form or another as a medical treatment. That is not controversial and there are several proven therapies (and FDA approved in the US) that are in use. TENS, DBS, and VNS are some examples. There is surely many more possibilities for its use waiting to be discovered and/or proven.It's not hard at all based on our current understanding of human physiology to see why electricity can be therapeutic. In fact there is an entire field of physiology - electrophysiology - that has been around since the very beginning of the science of physiology. It is a large, well established field with several Nobel prize winners.But the OP is about magnetic therapy. This is entirely different. Unless you are spinning the magnets to produce electricity, there is not much theoretical basis for understanding how it might promote healing. Yes, magnetic fields can exert an effect on the central nervous system, which depends on large arrays of electrically interconnected cells (neurons) - but that requires powerful magnets placed over the skull or spinal cord. This is an area of active study - but as far as I know there have been no proven therapies. That is entirely different than the kind of small, low powered magnetic device as in the OP, being used on arm or leg, etc.So a small, low power magnetic device as in the OP may have some therapeutic benefit (beyond placebo effect which IS very real) but it needs to be proven in a well controlled clinical trial. If could be proven it would revolutionize physiology and open up a whole new field of study to try and determine how it is exerting its beneficial effect since AFAIK there is no known mechanism for such effect based on current understanding of human physiology.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2017, 02:06:06 am
content: Moving (AC) magnetic fields as well as sessions with very low current DC are the subject of a great deal of research in accelerating the healing of brain injuries. They use special tracers to quantify improvement (growth of new neural cells) These tracers only locate themselves in areas of new brain cell growth.