Year 2013 Oscilloscope Choices... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 11:11:39 am
content: Hello to everyone,I am new to the forum. My knowledge in electronics is limited and I would like to expandby buying a valuable diagnostic too. An oscilloscope.I know that this question has being asked many times, but I have been watching the forumsome time now and its not yet clear which oscilloscope is a safe buy. Actually I know, butI don't have the money to buy the Rigol DS2072... I can only spend around 360 euros.The candidates are the following:1) Rigol DS1052EA proven design (I assume) with stable firmware, support, but small screen and terrible fan noise,although there are reports that the noise problem was fixed... Just the fact that so many yearsand they did not replaced that fan, worries me a little... How difficult is to use a low noise fan??They could have used two slow speed and quiet fans placed opposite one another and wouldhave achieved much better airflow without the need of a single fast & noisy fan.2) Hantek DSO5202BFast oscilloscope with many features, nice functional menu plus easily hackable.Looks cheap on the outside and has bad viewing angle but only from above.Some report slow speed when using all available memory.3) Owon SDS7102VLarge crisp display, huge memory, single fast ADC, optional battery, quiet. Not a very functionalmenu system, questionable firmware. Unknown internals... Has anybody read the following though?http://owon.freeforums.org/rigol-owon-hantek-and-siglent-samplerate-tables-t9.html4) Siglent SDS1072CMLNot a lot is known about this line of oscilloscopes. The display looks promising, the firmware looksextremely similar with the Rigol's (if not exactly the same...) The quality in general looks good.Decent memory. Difficult to get one and at the right price. Non existent support?http://www.siglent.com/UploadFiles/en/Files/DataSheet/SDS1000CML_datasheet_en.pdf5) UNI-T UTD2102CMExcellent specs but some say its all lies..., Amazing price!Many negative comments about the UNI-T oscilloscope series.Any proof/numbers for this one? (or just rumors)So:I am not buying the Rigol because it has a small screen.I am not buying the Hantek because it looks cheaply made.I am not buying the Owon because the firmware lacks in many aspects.I am not buying the Siglent because nobody knows how it actually performs.I am not buying the UNI-T because rumor has it that its a bad scope....but these are my options and from what I see, in order to make a decisionI would have to sacrifice something. That is why I am asking for some help.The things that are more important to me are the following: (with that order)Price Range around 360 euros / $470. Maximum 400 euros if its a must.1) Accurate measurements & signal quality. (for the price range)2) Stable firmware.3) High quality internal power supply. (very important for any device)4) Crisp display with decent viewing angles.5) Bandwidth >= 50Mhz.6) Usable probes for the given bandwidth.I would appreciate it if anyone can suggest to me which one to buy based on the aboverequirements. If there is an oscilloscope not included in the above list that meets the criteria,please feel free to tell me.Thank you in advance !George.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 11:33:38 am
content: QuoteYou get what you pay for - doubt there will be much to choose between theseQuoteWe all know Chinese are bad at firmware - Rigol probably the best bet but issues on others are more likely to be annoyances than show-stoppers. Again, .you get what you pay forQuotePSUs are usually easily repairableQuoteWhy do you need wide view angle? - you will usually want the scope facing you for access to controlsQuote50-100M is a reasonable starting point these days - nmot worth looking at anything less as it will probably be cheapo garbageQuoteYou can always buy different probes, but at this bandwidth it's not too critical and chances are they will all come with the same ones.Small screen is not often a big deal unless you have vision problems.AT the low=cost end you're probably not going to get much better resolution even on a bigger screen.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 11:52:38 am
content: Welcome to the world of cut price scopes.Pick whichever one annoys you the least

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 12:07:55 pm
content: Hello Dave,Thanks for the welcome!I am trying hard to pick one...Maybe I will buy the Rigol 2000 series and calm down....Hello Mike,For me its frustrating not having a decent clear display.QuoteThis is actually a very good point.I also forgot to add to the list of choices the UNI-T UTD2102CM oscilloscope.Excellent features and great price as well.I've seen a lot of people saying bad things about the Uni-T oscilloscope range but with no actualproof. If I take for example the UT61E multimeter its actually a very good quality & accuratemultimeter for an unbeatable price.So I am updating the above list with the UNI-T UTD2102CM scope as well.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 12:19:10 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 24, 2013, 11:52:38 amHa! Succinct and exactly correct

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 12:30:07 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 24, 2013, 11:11:39 amAs Mike said, only an issue if your eyesight isn't so good. On the upside, it's a stable product with a huge user base - and you get SCPI control of the DSO.QuoteNot a big deal - FW crashes are more of an issue; I don't know where that stands currently - check the Hantek thread here for latest info.QuoteAgain, not really a big issue. If you can make do with the slow update rates, it's the best hardware value/per dollar (big screen, 10M per channel, battery-powered, etc).QuoteMember Rf-loop sells Siglent here in the EU - and has done many tests on them. Contact him for more info. He also sells Owons - and could tell you pros and cons vs. Siglent.QuoteI don't know anything about Uni-T, other than I've read they've appeared to 'fudge' some of their specs in the past.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 12:34:56 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 24, 2013, 11:52:38 amThis is by far the best advice you'll ever receive. Having lived with my fair share of some shitty crap...

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 12:37:03 pm
content: Having said that. Having watched Dave's videos, the expensive scopes are not exactly annoyance free.

author: jebcom
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 12:43:29 pm
content: My 2 cents:I just bought the Hantek. I got the MSO5202D (MSO because I do mixed signal stuff and analog and logic analyzer on common triggering and display have been very useful to me in the past. But this is not what you're asking about...)First, at this price point, I don't expect the near-perfection that I would expect by spending much more on a Tek or Agilent product.I absorbed all the reviews I could find, and Marmad's helped to inform my decision. I also know a guy who bought the DSO5202B. To address your points:Looks Cheap:I don't see this as an issue. When Agilent first came out with pastel color coding on the front panels, I thought "Fisher Price! What engineer will want to buy this?" But I've gotten used to it, and the Hantek doesn't bother me at all. It's quite functional, and I don't see any of the hand-cut issues that Marmad mentioned.Bad Viewing Angle:This is noticeable but for me not an issue at all. I have it sitting on my desk now, and I did turn up the grid intensity a bit so I can see that part better. If I move my head down low I can notice the difference, but it is not any kind of a problem for me.Slow Speed with all of memory:Can't comment as I haven't tried this yet. But I believe that for the vast majority of my scope uses, this will not be an issue.Right now I don't have the time for hacking or for depending on hacks, so that was not a consideration for me; I need it as a tool. 90% - 95% of the time this just needs to be a basic scope and this was my main consideration, so at my price point I think I got the most bang for the buck.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 01:00:06 pm
content: Marmad Hi,Some ebay seller is selling right now the Owon at a very nice discount price:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thin-OWON-100Mhz-Oscilloscope-SDS7102V-1G-s-8-FFT-LAN-VGA-free-FW-upgr-UK-ship-/380611078970?pt=Mess_Pr%C3%BCftechnik&hash=item589e302b3aSo, I have to decide fast...From your reply it looks like that from all the scopes listed you are between the Owon and the Rigol,taking into account my requirements. So +1 for Rigol & Owon.Hello jebcom,Thanks for your feedback. When I say it looks cheap what I mean is that looking at the outsideit looks cheap and from that I assume that the inside is cheap as well. That of course might notbe true and that Hantek used quality parts. Nice to know from an actual user that the Hantekperforms well with no major problems. I assume that it has the same display as the DSO5202B.So, +1 for the Hantek as well.Will it be a lot to ask for a video of the Hantek screen while moving the camera slowly around tocheck the viewing angles?Thanks!

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 01:05:23 pm
content: I encourage anyone that does not like to talk a lotbut has an opinion, to vote for the bestoscilloscope from those listed. Thanks! It will be interesting to see the results.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 01:29:05 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 24, 2013, 11:52:38 amThat's how I choose girlfriends.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 01:29:28 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 24, 2013, 01:05:23 pmSorry. I have none of these listed. The scope I have was made probably before you were born, sonny.O0If only you had the option of second hand CRO or something...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 01:35:27 pm
content: I'd choose the one with the highest display resolution. The amount of pixels in height is most important. It allows you to put several traces on screen with some amount of resolution.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 01:46:04 pm
content: I would still buy the Rigol DS1052E.Proven design and updated firmware. It just works.At your level, 50MHz is more than enough and the screen resolution is adequate.3 year warranty and good resale value.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 01:49:50 pm
content: Quote from: marmad on April 24, 2013, 12:30:07 pmshort said -> much better. There is however one thing, Hantek is changing right now the hardware, there are already "P" models available,they already using new SoC. I have no idea yet what else will get changed in "B/BM/BMV" models (note: P models having only 24k memory).It might be good idea to buy the "old" hardware as we know it can be hacked, it might be better idea to wait a bit (new models still no Linux, this time 3.x)and buy one of the updated B/BM/BMV models. When MSO will be updated, no idea as well.Quote from: marmad on April 24, 2013, 12:30:07 pmon the paper UNI-T is having 150k wfms/s and 16M memory. I've asked 2 persons having such DSOs to run tests but nevergot an answer (haha), so i assume :- there is no trigger out, so no measurment possible- there is trigger-out only as pass/fail, but the trigger rate is slower than announces by UNI-T (which make sense, pass/fail can be slower than normal operation)- these ppl whom i asked ar simply too stupid ? no, i don't think so, but both are shop owners, so mixed feelings about this.Quote from: marmad on April 24, 2013, 12:30:07 pmright, he have (or will get for sure) the latest Siglent hw, he knows what inside and what new/updated.hgg, if i would have to buy one, then:Rigol Eis too old platform, from 2004, improved 2006 and again 2008 (and released as E models) as Rigol recognized that CA models are too expensive.DSO is not wine nor car, especially in low/mid range models features changing every few weeks.Hantekis changing their old hardware (which is newer than Rigol E but older than Owon SDS or Siglent SML and UNI-T CM)to new one - i would not buy the old anymore (again, this is not wine nor car). I don't know if there will be performance change at all(it could be because the new SoC is faster, but then there is Linux 3.x eating all the resources ...)Owonis useless slow for the given hardware ... it is a shame in my opinion to sell such nice hardware with such slow firmware.But remember one thing, is is exact taht fast as e.g. Tektronix TDS1xxx/2xxx, but it does have much bigger display and 10Mpoints instead of 2.5kpoints,so slow didn't means not usable - but you can get for sam money faster DSOs.UNI-Tas said above, on paper the best EVER value for money, better than Agilent DSOX2xxx, as Rigol DS2000 ^^- but nobody ever tested it. As you located in EU i would say buy it - test it - and send it back if not what you wish to get.I'm not a friend on UNI-T, but who knows, maybe they really designed properly a good piece of hardware.SiglentCML is the newest model from of all these (yet available) chinese DSOs, from the published specs they like improved Rigol E,with mix of features found on competitor models. I would say ask rf-loop for more informations/performance comparision or informationabout the hardware changes.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 01:53:46 pm
content: Quote from: jebcom on April 24, 2013, 12:43:29 pmHantek/Tekway is the only chinese DSO which can be placed at and above eye level! When you do this, the viewing angle is perfect.It was designed by Tekway like that for reason and i'm glad they did it. All others are designed to be placed on desk, for me not this was neveran option as i don't have there space.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 02:28:18 pm
content: Quote from: tinhead on April 24, 2013, 01:53:46 pmExactly. It's not about bad viewing angle - it's about what viewing angle suits your use. The Hantek/Tekway is perfect for shelf placement (Rigol is terrible from below).

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 02:45:51 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 24, 2013, 01:35:27 pmWell, all those scopes use a 8-bit DAC so the verticl resolution is in fact 256 points.I wanted to buy the 200MHz Owon SDS8202 but then I bought the Agilent DSOX2002A. It's a lovely machine with a handy function generator.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/my-new-toy-%29-agilent-dsox2002a-sex-on-a-stick!/30/

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 02:46:44 pm
content: Ed.KloonkI am looking for a digital scope and for a particular price range.I have the feeling that more people like me are having the same problem choosing a digital oscilloscope.nctnico, a nice point if you are using a lot both inputs.Owon and Hantek and UNI-T, have the highest vertical resolution.WytnuclsI agree with you and in my list I have the Rigol as the safest bet. The thing is thatmaybe for the same amount of money you can buy now a substantially better scope and peoplejust don't know it because to my knowledge there are not any proper comparisons of digitaloscilloscopes for a price range. So if the not so popular scopes are taken into account as well,we might be able to reach a correct conclusion.tinheadthank you for your reply,Concerning the UNI-T you did not get an answer so we still don't know how they perform.It does not mean that they perform badly.It is very difficult to try to make a decision by asking a seller. They are almost all the time biased,(forward or reversed) about the products they are selling. In my opinion only an independentuser can give you reliable information. Or a very honest seller that will accept the superiority ofa different brand and will not sell his own. Know someone?Anyway, from the info you gave me I don't see that you have reached any conclusion as well.You are correct about the Hantek viewing angle. If this was a designed feature though, theyshould at least advertise it. It will indeed be perfect fro some people that place their instrumentson shelves.marmad, its nice to know that info about the Rigol as well !Hydrawerkyou are correct... I missed that.Regarding the Agilent you have, its indeed a very nice machine but the price is three times higher!The function generator comes handy though and in the future I intend to buy one as well.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 03:10:52 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 24, 2013, 02:46:44 pmBut there is no 'correct' conclusion - there are simply reasonably good solutions based upon your most pressing needs.Any of the mentioned DSOs will likely provide you adequately with these things:1) Accurate measurements & signal quality. (for the price range)2) Stable firmware.3) High quality internal power supply. (very important for any device)4) Crisp display with decent viewing angles.5) Bandwidth >= 50Mhz.6) Usable probes for the given bandwidth.So then you need to determine what else, if anything, is important for you. For example:Rigol: If you want the biggest support network of other users and/or easiest interfacing to external computer software.Hantek: If you want the fastest waveform update rates in a low-cost unit and/or hackability.Owon: If you want deep memory and/or VGA output and/or battery portability.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 03:11:42 pm
content: Any of Rigol DS1052E, Hantek DSO5202B, Owon SDS7102V, Siglent SDS1072CML or UNI-T UTD2102CM might be OK. Choose according to the reseller that is near to you! I wanted to buy the Owon, because there is a shop in my city. They even showed me the scope in action. It froze once, LOL. But the screen was nice. At these cheap scopes you may need the shop near to you because of the 2-year warranty. Ask well for the noise issue of Owon.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-of-owon-sds7102/990/And I have read that the Hantek is overheating due to no fan. Really bad. But maybe some Hantekhasthe fan, who knows.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 03:25:03 pm
content: Having a fast waveform update would be nice I suppose.HydrawerkI am afraid that I cannot buy any oscilloscope here in Greece because they are much moreexpensive than buying it from the internet.About the Hantek heating problem! This is not a minor problem but a major oneAre you sure thatis has overheating problems??? It will catch fire... here in Greece and the measurements of course will beway off ! Glad you mentioned that.You see? 'Small' things like these will definitely erase some scopes from the list.I will try to find out if its true.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 03:35:40 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on April 24, 2013, 03:11:42 pmnahhh, Tekway designed these DSOs to work without fan as well, however fan was an option for middle east/india, etc.Hantek is however producing them all WITH fan, as well for/as Voltcraft with fan. Tekway is producing both, with and without(however due only small series they producing you might get one with fan even if you don't asked for such).If you have 35° in your room, i would not use Tekway/Hantek without fan, but when you have 22° i don't see here any reason to have fan installed.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 03:56:15 pm
content: I've just received a reply from a Hantek seller and he confirms that the 200Mhz Hantek has aninternal fan indeed! Nice.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 04:12:30 pm
content: Choose an eshop with good reputation.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 04:14:25 pm
content: I've already did, but do you mean?That he is lying and that the 200Mhz Hantek does not have a fan???

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 04:27:55 pm
content: Here is a small review for the UNI-T scope:I work in the maintenance - service business. I had a small budget to put together a basic repair lab, that would qualify to do the job. I had no choice, so I started with products that have "Made In China" stickers. Following other peoples opinion on the Net, and after trying out almost all "cheap" oscilloscopes, I found that all brands had some good, and many bad features. I got an opportunity to "play" with the UTD2102CM, from UNI-T. The first thing I noticed is the weight. It is heavier than the rest with the same specs. The quality of workmanship deserves a thumbs up. You should expect the fan noise. The Large screen is crisp, and clear. The second thing that got my attention, is the capture rate. I saw my waveforms in more detail than any other oscilloscope in the category I mentioned. The GUI is so/so, due to the fact, that the color of the cursor is the same as the wave, (they kind of blend together) and the fact, that currently the captured wave I save to memory, can't be transferred to memory stick. I heard they are working this problem to fix it. The filter is working excellent. My overall impression is, that this is the first scope I have used that deserves the thumbs up, and that I should keep. I'm not trying to compare this scope to other brand names, but it is "worth the money ".Date Added: 07/31/2012 by Gyula Lami

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 04:43:29 pm
content: Here is a comparison between the UNI-T UTD2102CM and the Siglent SDS1102CML scope:https://www.mortoncontrols.com/blog/files/archive-01-july-2012.html

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 04:58:18 pm
content: Wytnucls I just finished reading the exact same article!I think that the UNI-T is going up the list. Everything looks good on it except maybe the firmwarethat is somewhat work in progress. Double Faraday shielding in the scope and power supply.Vertical knobs though do not double as push buttons.So we have at least one report that the waveform per second is high on the UNI-T.Not sure if its 150.000 but its faster then all the others.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 05:02:37 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on April 24, 2013, 04:43:29 pmPeople have posted this link on the forum before, and honestly, what does a 'comparison' of two DSOs sold by the writer of the article exactly illustrate? It's as irrelevant as just reading the datasheet.Also, as discussed before in the forum, some previous Uni-T scopes had misleading specs for memory depth, so I would be wary of trusting their datasheet - or their claim of 150k wfrm/s rate (supposedly faster than Rigol DS2000/DS4000; Agilent X2000; GW-Instek GDS-2000A?) unless it's verified with instruments by someone who isn't selling it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 05:09:45 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 24, 2013, 02:46:44 pmEven if you use one input the more vertical pixels the better. Don't forget that a display with twice the resolution has four times more pixels so text takes 4 times less space!

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 05:34:11 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 24, 2013, 04:58:18 pmOne thing to note: I personally find UNI-T's wfrm/s claims difficult to believe - but even if they are true, the best reason for having a high wfrm/s rate is to have intensity-grading - which allows the DSO to move more captured waveform information to the display with each screen refresh - and gives your DSO the feel of an analog scope. But the UNI-T has no intensity-grading - so it obviates one of the great reasons for having a high refresh rate.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 05:44:39 pm
content: I don't know if the high acquisition rate of the UNI-T is correct, but it is not a misprint in the catalogue datasheet, as it is also mentioned in the scope user manual.There are two major benefits to a high acquisition rate:1) the ability to find and measure infrequently occurring events2) faster and more reliable results during compliance and characterization testing.http://www.ecnmag.com/articles/2010/12/importance-oscilloscope-acquisition-rate

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 06:00:10 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on April 24, 2013, 05:44:39 pmThat's all well and good, but since the UNI-T does not have a Trigger Out signal to easily verify their claim, they could print anything. The only way to test it is to open it up and check it internally or run tests involving delayed pulses or glitch-capturing; either way, it takes some effort to verify.Also, since the advertised wfrm/s rate on all DSOs is a best case scenario (single channel, one certain timebase, etc), serious DSOs with high rates specify what settings are required to achieve the fastest rate. The UNI-T does not. That means their 150k wfrm/s rate might mean ONLY for the split-second when you turn the dial from 20ns to 10ns - or any other nonsense - since there's no easy way to verify.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 06:09:28 pm
content: I thought that the Uni-T had an external trigger out...?Please have a look at the picture:http://www.reichelt.de/?ACTION=3;ARTICLE=123970;GROUPID=4044;PROVID=2382;&utm_source=Preisvergleich&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign=Preisvergleich_shopping.com/They actually state that its equal orgreaterthan 150.000 wfrm/s...

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 06:13:15 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 24, 2013, 06:09:28 pmThat's an input; all DSO's have them.QuoteSureOne more reason to believe their specifications: that's the minimum speed of their DSO

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 06:14:20 pm
content: I don't think they would deceive their clients purposefully. It could just be a snafu in their publishing department.The company specifies a lower acquisition rate of 20k waveforms/sec on their new top of the range 1GHz machine.The new scopes in the 4000 range, with a sample rate of 2GS/s, also have an alleged acquisition rate of 150Kwfms/s.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 06:23:58 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on April 24, 2013, 06:14:20 pmUm... err... ah... yes, a snafu in the publishing department. Funny, I've run into these 'snafu's before in the specification department of Chinese-made test equipment - and even when you confront them with the 'snafu' (which, BTW, always helps increase their sales - it's never a 'snafu' which lowers the DSO's capabilities), and they admit that it's a mistake - they don't manage to correct the 'snafu' for many many months (especially odd since most documents are just online in electronic form these days).

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 06:28:03 pm
content: QuoteYes, sorry...

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 06:46:07 pm
content: Quote from: marmad on April 24, 2013, 06:00:10 pmNot true, R&S datasheet only mentions an acquisition rate of more than 1 million waveforms per second.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 06:57:14 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on April 24, 2013, 06:46:07 pmReally? As a counter-example you're going to use one of the companies which publish the MOST literature about their DSOs? It took me about 5 minutes to find this:"The R&S RTO oscilloscopes acquire, process and display 1 million waveforms per second while capturing a 1000 sample record length at the maximum sample rate of 10 Gsample/s."I'm guessing I can find even more detail with a few more minutes. While I do, would you care to dig up and post some more detail on the UNI-T's capture rate?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 06:58:24 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on April 24, 2013, 06:46:07 pmYes, because R&S claims that the 1M wfms/sec will be reached at most settings. Not sure if that's the case (apparently not, as marmad's table below suggests).LeCroy also claims 1M wfms/sec for their WaveRunner Zi Series on any (sequential) setting, even when running on all 4 channels.On the other side both the R&S RTO scopes and the LeCroy WaveRunner Zi cost a bit more than 360€. Quite a bit more.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 07:06:10 pm
content: Here are two charts from R&S which show both the acquisition rate for a constant resolution - and the acquisition rate for a constant record length. This is more info than you get from virtually any manufacturer:

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 07:07:21 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 24, 2013, 11:11:39 amI know you have narrowed down your selection already but have you considered buying 2nd hand?

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 07:10:24 pm
content: We are comparing datasheets here, nothing else. So the UNI-T information provided on the datasheet is not necessarily misleading, like you implied.I will contact UNI-T tomorrow for more information on that strange high acquisition rate and report back soon.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 07:55:41 pm
content: All high speed waveform update rate scopes must have intensity grading and Trig Out. If not, then the scope is weird and not suitable for buying.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 09:10:49 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on April 24, 2013, 07:10:24 pmThat's not what I wrote - I never mentioned datasheets - you did; I already tried looking through the UNI-T User Manual and other docs.And I didn't imply anything - I specifically stated: "...serious DSOs with high rates specify what settings are required to achieve the fastest rate. " - and they do: sometimes in the owner's manual, sometimes in supplemental literature. I can find it for Rigol, for GW-Instek, for Agilent, for R&S, etc. - but NOT for UNI-T. And strangely, no one has been able to find this information in the months the DSO has been available.Listing a maximum wfrm/s rate without specifying how/when it's achievable is like specifying the frequency response of something without the decibel deviation - it's rather meaningless.QuoteFine. And while you're asking them questions, ask them why they don't use intensity grading with such a fast rate - and how someone can measure their claimed wfrm/s rate to verify it?

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 10:17:51 pm
content: QuoteI saw a method somewhere, but i cannot find the website now. You need a special signal generator or something...

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 10:22:35 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on April 24, 2013, 10:17:51 pmI know how to do it - I just wanted to hear the response from UNI-T.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 11:59:56 pm
content: Well, maybe in september 2012 I wrote an email to local UNI-T dealer,http://www.tipa.eu/en/oscilloscopes-generators/c-1164/I asked in the email if they will ever sell the new UTD 2102CM. They haven't answered till now.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 12:26:04 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on April 24, 2013, 10:17:51 pmYou can use a demo board that provides a known glitch every X cycles.Then you have to run many tests timing how long it takes before the scope captures the glitch.But this still only gives you a ballpark estimate.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 01:08:27 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 25, 2013, 12:26:04 amA quicker and more precise way to do it is to use a 2-channel function generator - with each channel set to create a pulse burst with the same amplitude (e.g. 1Vpp); a period inverse to the minimum wfrm/s rate (e.g. if the minimum speed expected is 100 wfrm/s, set the pulse period to 10ms); and a pulse width that is a small fraction of the period on channel 1 (e.g. 10us) and double or triple that size on channel 2 (e.g. if using 10us on ch1, then use 20 or 30us on ch2) so that the pulses can be easily visually distinguished from each other.You then send the two source channels into one input channel on the DSO (which is running in 'Normal' mode with a short persistence) and start doing manual bursts, while adjusting the delay time between the two pulses. When there is a minimal delay between the pulses, the scope will trigger on the edge of pulse #1 - and all or part of pulse #2 will also be captured in the same acquisition, and displayed to the right of the trigger position. As the delay time between pulses increases, at a certain point pulse #2 will disappear - falling into the dead time of the DSO. As the delay time increases even further, eventually pulse #2 will enter the second acquisition cycle of the DSO, causing a trigger, and you'll see both pulses #1 & #2 appear simultaneously on the DSO screen at the trigger position - being captured in consecutive acquisition cycles. The inverse of the delay time between the pulses at that point is the waveform update rate.Less time-consuming than running glitch tests - but still a bit of work if you're going to catalog the different timebase settings, sample lengths, etc.

author: jebcom
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 04:05:28 am
content: hgg,I put a couple of videos on youtube. Sorry, they're not the great quality that we're used to from Dave! The only thing I have right now that shoots better than standard def is the iPhone 4, so that's what I used. You will notice that the measurement panel on the right washes out with very low contrast at the low angles. That's mostly from the iPhone. The contrast does go down some at the low angles, but it's still perfectly readable. I think tinhead can confirm that.I just went from high to low on these videos. Side-to-side it is very consistent; I don't notice any change.http://youtu.be/mslxyUvvXXkhttp://youtu.be/sZSzu1XDyI0I don't see this as looking cheap at all. In fact it's really not bad, considering the bottom scope in this line can be had for US$280 delivered, and it uses the same hardware. The photos that tinhead has posted in the HUGE thread seems to show a well-designed interior.As you are getting started, I think you would be happy with any of the choices in your list. Of course if you can afford the Rigol 2000 and it meets your needs, go for it. But today, you won't get intensity grading on a new digital scope in the price range you have indicated. Next year, who knows? But that might be reason to go for the low end now. The lowest cost scope here will still be a very good tool for you as you learn. (But I do agree with you that a higher res display is nice, and I do like the Hantek display.) In a few years you might see something more advanced with more features that you want, and it might be less pain to unload a cheap scope to get something more advanced.

author: jebcom
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 04:07:58 am
content: And by the way, my Hantek does have a fan, and hardly gets warm at all. Not very loud.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 06:34:15 am
content: QuoteWuerstchenhundI am open to suggestions. The problem with the used ones is that first of all youwill not have any warranty and second that you have to trust the seller because you don't knowwhat you are actually getting...There are interesting things coming out from this discussion like how to actually measurea scope's wfrm/s even if it does not have any trigger out.My first thought was the same as Dave's but Marmad's method looks like a more accurateapproach.Dave that is a nice idea for new video tutorial !What do you say? Maybe you can measure Rigol's ds1052e wfrm/s and see if its the sameas the specs.jebcomthank you very much for the videos !! The angle its not bad actually. It can go a fewdegrees beyond the horizontal with no problem. I don't need wider angles than that.Maybe only at the extreme the image will get dark.WytnuclsI can't wait to hear the reply from UNI-T !

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 06:49:24 am
content: Quote from: hgg on April 25, 2013, 06:34:15 amhe 1052E doesn't have such a spec.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 07:37:37 am
content: Strange. I think that this spec is quite important in debugging a signal.Maybe more important that the oscilloscope bandwidth! You will use yourscope to find problems, not just look at nice waveforms.What about the 100Mhz Rigol or the 2072? Do they have the wfrm/s listed?

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 08:00:25 am
content: Quote from: hgg on April 25, 2013, 07:37:37 amCheap scopes usually have less wfm/s, the reason why it often is not mentioned.wfm/s is only important if you search for glitches / jitter, for other debugging purposescheap scopes are just as useful.As attached in one of my previous comments there are very good Agilent documents whereyou can calculate the probability to catch a glitch depending on the wfm/s.By the way: even if a scope offers 1Mio. wfm/s, as long as persistence mode of the screen isnot used, it can become difficult to see it. So the real question is how often users really needhigh wfm/s.European RIGOL website has listed wfm/s for most scopes:http://eu.rigol.com/prodserv/DS4000/property/Kind Rgds,Gunb

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 11:31:51 am
content: @hgg:I'm sorry to have had a hand in diverting such a large portion of the thread into a discussion of waveform update rates - as a beginner, there are more important issues for you to think about than that; I just didn't want you to make a decision based on this unqualified and unverified specification of UNI-T.One of the big reasons that people keep buying the Rigol, Owon, and Hantek models listed is because of the large support group of other owners offered by forums like this - which have developed a huge knowledge-base about the DSOs - including, in the case of the Rigol and Hantek, hacks for increasing the bandwidth for free.As you mentioned in your opening post, the Siglent and UNI-T DSOs have not been adequately reviewed, torn apart, or examined in detail by users like the other three DSOs have, so the true positive and negative attributes of these DSOs is not known. Of course, if you want to be a trail-blazer in this regard, I'm sure there will be other prospective buyers after you who would be happy to hear your findings. For you, I think this is much more crucial to consider than wfrm/s.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 11:41:44 am
content: Quote from: hgg on April 25, 2013, 06:34:15 amIt very much depends on what you actually want to do with it (i.e. features you actually need and not just want to have for the sake of it) and how many channels and what bandwidth, but general suggestions would be HP's 54500/54600 Series, or Tek's TDS300/500/700 Series. With some patience and luck you might even be able to get a LeCroy 9300/9400 Series scope, or one of the Hameg hybrid analog/digital ones.QuoteOn the other side, that warranty may not be worth much if it means having to ship the scope back to China, and unlike modern low cost scopes (which essentially are throw-away items) much older kit can actually be fixed if required.In addition, on the 2nd hand market you can get a mature, durable and reliable instrument made for many years of professional use instead of a product that was designed with the lowest possible price in mind.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 11:49:17 am
content: Quote from: hgg on April 25, 2013, 07:37:37 amNo, it isn't. In fact, in many applications it's probably rather irrelevant as long as as it's somewhat reasonable. The lack of high wfm rates hasn't prevented engineers from debugging fast signals in the past. It may help in certain situations (especially on scopes with limited signal analysis capabilities) but you should not get distracted by the marketing blah.At the end of the day, the most important thing is that you understand your scope and know its limitations.

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 12:24:19 pm
content: Quote from: marmad on April 25, 2013, 01:08:27 amI was planning to do this on my WaveJet that doesn't have trig out, but I've not yet acquired a function generator.What I'd thought of doing was similar but using a ramp amplitude modulated sin wave in a burst form with the ramp up being such that a few waveforms at least would be captured and the amplitude step between captured waves would give the time step between waveforms (i.e. the waveforms per second).You might be able to do a similar thing with a rapid frequency sweep and observing the step in carrier wave frequency between waveforms.When I eventually get a waveform/function generator I hope to have fun experimenting.Though on the WaveJet it captures a history of waveforms so a simple burst of say a 1000 waveforms could be used and the number actually captured just read off.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 12:36:06 pm
content: Quote from: jpb on April 25, 2013, 12:24:19 pmI was able to accomplish the same thing with a single channel AWG using a waveform consisting of a pulse at the beginning and a pulse (with greater amplitude) towards the end - and then changing the frequency of the AWG. But it was a much bigger pain in the ass to control because, of course, the pulse widths are also affected, the AWG can skip samples, etc, etc.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 12:37:30 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 25, 2013, 11:49:17 amExactly, also my opinion. wfm/s means nothing when more important functions/features are missing.

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 12:59:03 pm
content: Quote from: marmad on April 25, 2013, 12:36:06 pmAs I've not yet had the chance to try it I've no idea if my approach would work. But the difference between your (very sensible) suggestions and my yet untried plans is that I wouldn't adjust frequency to make things disappear, I'd thought of using say a 50MHz carrier and a ramp between 1V and 5V in say 20mS then the WaveJet if it was capturing at around 1000 wf/s would capture about 20 waveforms in persistence mode (the trigger level set below 1V). The peaks increase in amplitude at the rate of 1V every 5mS so if the amplitude difference over 21 waveforms was say 3V (for arguments sake) I'd estimate the gap between waveforms as 0.75ms and the capture rate as 1,333 waveforms per sec.Of course this is only for a time base where the 50MHz carrier would be shown well say 5nS/div.With an arb you could perhaps use steps rather than a ramp so essentially you are translating time markers into steps in amplitude say every 10 microsecs. On the WaveJet you can go back through the history of the last 1000 captures so at slower time bases you could measure the steps even though you'd only see a blur in persistence mode.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 01:17:50 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 25, 2013, 11:49:17 am... and some of them still wating for the first glitch appearance on the screen ... the best job protection method

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 01:29:02 pm
content: Quote from: Gunb on April 25, 2013, 12:37:30 pmIndeed.I also think that interpolation (or better: the lack of a facility to disable it on some scopes) is a much bigger issue than the wfm rate.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 02:19:50 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 25, 2013, 01:29:02 pmSo do you know in which scope of the 5 you can disable it?

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 02:28:16 pm
content: Whoever thinks that wfrm/s is not so important should state the wfrm/s of his scope...I am not choosing an oscilloscope based on my current knowledge on electronics.What I want is thebest oscilloscopethat I can buy in that price range.I will not be able to use all its functions in the beginning, but I am a fast learner.So I am looking for the best one based on the criteria listed on my first post.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 02:28:59 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 25, 2013, 02:19:50 pmYou can disable it on all 5 models. But what kind of interpolation each DSO uses - and how well they do it - is a whole different matter.

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 03:17:27 pm
content: someone needs to produce an oscilloscope top trumps pack (see the link for those who don't remember the game)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_trumpsyou could havebandwidthchannelsmemorysampling ratewaveforms per secondtriggering options

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 05:39:53 pm
content: Wytnuclsdo you have any news from Uni-T ??

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 05:50:54 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 25, 2013, 02:28:16 pmWhich one? I don't know the wfm rate of my LeCroy Waverunner LT. The Agilent DSO9000A I often use at work apparently does 400k wfms/sec according to their spec sheet. We also have some older Agilent and Tek scopes but I can't say what their waveform update rate is. So what?QuoteThe best scope is the one that does what you need it to do, reliably and without hickups.If you actually want to use it, that is. If it's just for posing then I guess the best scope is the one with the most features.QuoteAny entry level scope should do fine for almost anything a beginner (and even many more advanced users) throw at it. When you are at a stage where you need more advanced features you will most certainly find you want a new scope anyways.Quotewhich includedQuoteWith the exception of the Rigol maybe, I don't think you find a scope without firmware issues in this price range.At the end of the day, you get what you pay for.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 05:51:34 pm
content: Not yet, but like others have said, you should not base your buying decision on that feature alone anyway, which is most probably optimistic at best.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 06:08:03 pm
content: Quote from: marmad on April 25, 2013, 02:28:59 pmOn my DSOX2002A you cannot switch off the interpolation...Well, Agilent is like Apple Iphone, you cannot set a lot of parameters. Even the memory size is fixed, but why not. Vectors are always on. No possibility to switch to dots. But the scope is very easy to use, just like an Apple product. (Well, I am not an Apple fan and I have never bought any their product.)

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 06:13:11 pm
content: QuoteDefinitely not for posing... Especially in that price range...I just want buy to one with the best feature set, because in the future I might use some of the features.QuoteOk, I get it. wfrm/s not so important...QuoteWhat about the Siglent? It looks like it has the same firmware like the Rigol, better screen and its fastertoo.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 07:00:45 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 25, 2013, 06:13:11 pmThe Siglent has certainly not the same firmware as the Rigol (albeit they may look pretty similar), both are different scopes from different manufacturers. The Rigol is longer on the market and thus should be more mature, both in hardware and in software.I guess if I was forced (literally, like with a gun to my head) to decide between the scopes you list then I'd either go for the Rigol (if maturity is the most important feature) or the Siglent (if you buy from a seller that offers a real warranty and if you're prepared to be patient for firmware fixes). Based on what I've seen on other Siglent kit (I have a Siglent AWG and have seen the LeCroy rebadges of Siglent scopes and AWGs) the hardware quality should be quite good for that price. It also looks like Siglent is starting to address the support issues, and hopefully does so with their quality control.At the end of the day, your money only buys you a cheap low end China scope, not a high end test instrument. This means you will have to live with some limitations and quirks anyways, and I'm pretty sure after some time you will want to upgrade to a better scope. But both the Rigol and the Siglent should serve fine as a starter scope.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 07:55:58 pm
content: Wuerstchenhundthank you for expressing a definite opinion.I am starting to narrow down my options and I think that I will not be buying the Hantek becauseit does not inspire confidence to me. The UNI-T is over my budget range. I thought I could findit for less than 400 euros shipped to Greece. The second reason being that it is new and nobodyknows yet anything about it. I have a hunch though that it might actually be a great oscilloscopefor the price. The two reasons that the Rigol gets out of the competition are its small screen andits noisy fan. (I am not sure if I will receive one with that problem fixed)So my options are narrowed down between the Siglent and the Owon.It looks like that the Siglent is a quality scope with a nice firmware. I will buy it from the USA andI will also have a 3 year warranty. The Owon has a lan port a 330 euros price, 3 year warrantyand with the return shipping cost paid by them.I've seen some videos with failed Owons and I am not sure that the quality control is that good...I think that Marmad said something about the Owon being slow in some feature but I did notunderstand why.Marmad is it possible to explain?Siglent might be my first scope. Not sure if I am making the right decision.Any final thoughts?Thanks!

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 08:15:15 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 25, 2013, 07:55:58 pmOwon optimized the routines for acquisition (waveform update rate) for 10M sample lengths - so it doesn't get (much) faster rates when you use small amounts of memory (as do most DSOs).QuoteAs both tinhead and I already said, before you buy a Siglent (especially from the USA), you should communicate withrf-loop- a long-standing member here who sells and repairs them (and Owon) in the EU. I don't know his prices, but he's a fair, smart guy who will tell you the good and bad points honestly - without trying to sell you something.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 08:19:19 pm
content: QuoteI see. Thanks!QuoteI forgot about that! I will contact him and ask him for a price quote.

author: cwalex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 03:38:22 am
content: The owon had an option for a battery and it doesn't look too expensive. That could be an advantage when you are unsure of grounding your scope or making mistakes while grounding the scope, running on battery could save some disasters. I don't know if anyone mentioned that already so I thought I would

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 03:44:39 am
content: Quote from: cwalex on April 26, 2013, 03:38:22 amIf you are unsure about scope grounding, then a battery powered scope like this, without properly designed isolated jacks or probes, can be just as potentially dangerous.

author: cwalex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 04:33:19 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 26, 2013, 03:44:39 amI'm just about to embarras myself by showing my ignorance but would running your scope from battery (while unplugged from mains/charger) not be similar to running your scope from an isolation transformer? In other words because it isn't connected to mains earth, attaching scope gnd to say a positive supply on DUT would just shift the scope measurement to that potential as a gnd reference and your probe would show you the difference in potential from the point you attach the gnd to the point you probe the circuit.I'm gleaning all the knowledge I have on this subject from this forum so I could easily got it waaaay wrong at some crucial point. Luckily I haven't blown up my scope yet, probably cos I hardly use it

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 04:41:44 am
content: The safe thing to do is keep the scope on a normal grounded power connection and use the isolation transformer on the device under test. If you can't use an isolation transformer on the device then you need a differential probe or a double insulated hand held scope.

author: cwalex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 04:53:38 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on April 26, 2013, 04:41:44 amOH, I think I get what dave was saying now. If the DSO isn't made with safety in mind and you gnd your DSO to 300V on DUT then you can easily be hurt from exposed BNC connectors etc as they will be at 300V and can earth through YOU! as opposed to properly isolated handheld DSO with plastic BNC and basically built to be safe (for the user). So the battery operation in the OWON may save your DSO from damage at the expense of user safety. In other words, just ignore what I said about the whole battery thing! unless you just want the option of using the scope away from a power point from time to time.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 05:20:30 am
content: It's amazing from the TDS 210 (mid 90's) for just under a thousand bucks (that's 60 mhz no fft and so on) to 100 mhz for under 500, with fft, colour and so on. I got one of the 210's and it was great now you get more for 500 bucks and just over a thousand will do even more.I have no complaints about the new class of low end scopes, with a little luck and a few years they will be much better. If nothing else they are more accessible because of the price point alone.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 07:53:19 am
content: For what it's worth, I heard back from UNI-T in Shanghai. The advertised acquisition rate of 150,000 waveforms per second for the UTD2102CM is not a misprint. I don't have any information as to under what conditions this is achieved.Here are a few more scope screenshots:http://www.pinsonne-elektronik.de/pi1/pd125.html

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 08:13:01 am
content: QuoteNice to know, but in the beginning I will play with low dc voltage signals, although later I wouldlike to look at some UPS circuits.WytnuclsThank you very much for the information!Can somebody explain the following... :!! DC BIAS Spannung einstellbar !! Damit kann man AC Signal mit (hohen) DC Spannungsanteilmit DC Kopplung genau anschauen. Dies ist ein großer Vorteil insbesondere bei Signalerfassung mit Norm-und Single Trigger !!(z.B. zyklische oder sporadische Störungsmessung auf Betriebsspannungen, Einschaltvorgänge;Sie können mit Kanal DC-Kopplung und 10:1 Teilung mit 20mV/DIV Auflösung messen, bei einenDC Spannungsanteil bis zu 20V und AC Störungen, Spannungsschwankungen Einbrüche sehr genauanalysieren )It looks like it does not have a vertical zoom control, but there is a button right next to the multipurposeknob labelled Coarse. Does anybody know what could this be for?The software looks though nicely designed, at least from the outside...Getting closer.. Owon is finally out of the competition because I think its like a relatively nice car butwith a very bad driver...Final options are theSiglentand theUni-T(If I can find it at my maximum of 400 euros price)Strangely enough one online store lists the White version of the UNI-T 100 euros more thanthe black!Black version :http://www.reichelt.de/index.html?ACTION=3;ARTICLE=123970;GROUPID=4044;PROVID=2382;&utm_source=Preisvergleich&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign=Preisvergleich_shopping.com/;SID=10UXfh338AAAIAAAIfS7Y6fdb97920862956a66d42d1456a2e310White version:http://www.reichelt.de/Oscilloscopes-Spectrum-Analyser/UTD-2102-CM-W/3/index.html?;ACTION=3;LA=3;ARTICLE=123971;GROUPID=5898

author: casper.bang
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 09:16:06 am
content: Wow hgg, those are pretty amazing prices for those of us close to the Germanic region of Europe. 399€ for 7" 800x480 screen, 16mpts memory and 150000 wfms/s has me quite interested too!

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 10:32:51 am
content: Hello casper.bang,indeed that price is very nice indeed. I will have to decide between the Uni-T and the Siglent.--->rf-loophello, I am not sure if you received a private message I've send you.If you haven't, please tell me so I can send it again. Thanks.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 10:41:35 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on April 26, 2013, 07:53:19 amIt's worth absolutely nothing... for all the reasons I've outlined before. Just because you hear back from them is meaningless.Anybody who wants to believe this unqualified, unverified, and undocumented claim about a fast update rate which produces no intensity grading are the perfect customers for UNI-T.Quote from: Wytnucls on April 26, 2013, 07:53:19 amI see an ugly-looking DSO with bad screen design (layout, use of space, etc). What do you see?

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 11:13:30 am
content: Marmad I see the same things about the screen design etc, but until someone actually measuresthe wfrm/s we cannot say that its not true. I have already heard from some users that the scope isactually extremely fast. Even if the 150.000 is not true, it will definitely not be something like 6.000

author: casper.bang
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 11:36:36 am
content: Quote from: marmad on April 26, 2013, 10:41:35 amCompared to the Rigol 1052E; I see a decent looking scope with bigger screen, more real-estate area for statistics and menu, nice looking buttons, single-shot button, much longer memory and basically the same or better capture specs. I am surprised you find it ugly, given your review of the Owon which is full of hard plastic buttons over and under the screen, with a UI that looks like a Nintendo console from the 90's. My main concern from the picture is the small 60mm grille hinting at a fan just as noisy as the 1052E (hopefully not).

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 12:05:08 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 26, 2013, 11:13:30 am@hgg:Look, whatever you want to think is fine. But as I mentioned before, the undocumented specification is meaningless - and I've had experience with 'incorrect' specs from Chinese manufacturers before. If some third-party actually does prove that it's wrong, UNI-T will just respond with some gobbledegoo. Just search the threads here for 'misinformation' from UNI-T; there is at least one about their incorrect CAT ratings on their multimeters. Personally, of the list of DSOs you mentioned, the last one in the list I would buy would be the UNI-T.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 12:25:57 pm
content: Quote from: casper.bang on April 26, 2013, 11:36:36 amWell, considering the Rigol DS1000 series design is now 7-years old, better to compare the UNI-T's current design to Rigol's current design and... well, it's clear UNI-T is really out-of-date.And compared to the Owon? In terms of industrial design, it's not even close: the Owon is much nicer - sleek, thinline design that looks and feels solid and modern. And the Owon uses 760x500 pixels for waveform display compared to a 600x400 on the UNI-T. Granted the Owon's UI is ugly - but so is UNI-T's. But between the two, I'd still buy the Owon - which has been torn-apart, tested, and examined by dozens of independent users - and get the community support, VGA out, larger screen, and battery option - instead of opting for UNI-T's untested and unexamined internals - lack of user-base - and it's fantasy wfrm/s rate. But hey, that's just me.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 12:32:46 pm
content: Marmad, you might be right.(I hope you are not, because then you can buy a great scope with just 400 euros)If you see the specifications that Uni-T lists in their website are very poor indeed.They don't write a lot of things, just the basics.I have bought the UNI-T UT61E and for the price its simply an unbeatable multimeter.Maybe they did the same with the oscilloscope. May be they didn't. The fact is thatwe don't actually know. We can only speculate. You say that because in a previousproduct they gave wrong information then this would be the rule for all the products.QuoteI agree.Code:the Owon is much nicer - sleek, thinline designMaybe that is why they are having the ground noise problem, when they packed thepower supply and fan so close together...

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 12:47:55 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 26, 2013, 12:32:46 pmNot necessarily the rule - but it's enough to cause me to be skeptical.When I had the Rigol, Owon, and Hantek DSOs, I either paid a bit more so that I could return them if I wanted to - or (in the case of the Hantek) borrowed it for testing. If I was thinking of buying the Siglent or UNI-T now, I would make sure to do the same thing, because IMO, it's better to spend a bit more and feel secure that you can return it (and it's better for warranty service as well) then to try to save every last penny on something you have to live/work with for years to come.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 12:53:06 pm
content: I agree, that's why I haven't already bought the Uni-T.I've contacted rf-loop but he doesn't seem to get my p.m.Do you happen to have his personal email?

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 01:02:54 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 26, 2013, 12:53:06 pmNo, but maybe you can reach him viahis Siglent forum.

author: casper.bang
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 01:16:12 pm
content: Quote from: marmad on April 26, 2013, 12:25:57 pmWhich would be the DS2000 serie? It costs 2-3 times as much here in Europe and is thus *far* beyond the 360-400€ category range the OP started this thread on. I'm sure your skepticism is well founded, but lets compare similar price points since it is the primary parameter above everything else. The Siglent and the UNI-T might well be the best fit in this category, too bad reviews and teardowns of these are so hard to come by.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 01:35:19 pm
content: Quote from: casper.bang on April 26, 2013, 01:16:12 pmAgreed, but I was only referring to the design at that point. Rigol has moved beyond that particular style now, and you have to admit, it's a bit out-of-date (which means, of course, the DS1000 series and the Hantek are both also looking old-in-the-tooth).QuotePrice and 'listed' features are important, to be sure, but when comparing DSOs that are all fairly similar, I'm not sure it's more important than a large community support base or detailed tests of actual capabilities. Given all that I know or have read about various brands, I think the Siglent is probably a fairly safe bet - but I woulddefinitelymake sure I could return the UNI-T if I bought it - and the first thing I would do upon receiving it is to open it up and check the internals.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 01:39:48 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 26, 2013, 12:32:46 pmmy proposal - buy the UTD 2102 CM R from Reichelt, it is 100eur cheaper than the "white" version,or ask pinsonne-elektronik.de for UTD2062CM (or better price for UTD2102CM )I was the first person outside China who purchased Tekway DSO (at that time they sold only ~240 DSOs!)my first one was even 100% with Chinese only menu, it was this one ->http://www.tekwayins.com/product.asp?ArticleID=7It was a nice Tektronix TDS1/2 clone, with similar specs, but already 400wfms/s (so 5x "faster" as Tektronix).I was as well the first person who bought their current model (which is today as well known as he Hantek/Voltcraft etc),it wasn't even ready at time of purchase (firmware, language files, even hardware got updated between my and retail model).I did it becasue Tekway was unique (not the very first model i got, but the second - the current one), large screen, 2500 wfm/sand many usefull things i haven't seen on other Chinese (or as well TEK TDS1/2xxx). Sure, no GPIB, no LAN, crap PC software, no support at all, etc.But they got a chance from me, and i still remember ppl in other forums (talking only bullshit) talking things like "no, this is not possible, that not as well, this is china crap, etc".Today there is large community, Tekway/Hantek/Voltcraft sold about 15000 DSOs, today there is support available, etc.So when you think UNI-T CM is ok for you, or you think to give them a chance, then buy it, make teardown/some pictures and when you able to test, test the wfms/s.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 01:50:30 pm
content: Quote from: tinhead on April 26, 2013, 01:39:48 pmWell sure - I did the same with the Owon SDS here - if he wants to do the work, we would all be happy to see the insides and results of tests done on the UNI-T by someone else, no doubt about itBut, IMO, he should then make sure he can return it.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 01:54:43 pm
content: Marmad, thanks. I will try to contact him there.I am not sure if they will accept to send me a unit for test and if I don't like it to send it back...I am still waiting a reply from Reichelt.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 02:00:05 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 26, 2013, 01:54:43 pmIn EU - in most countries - there is at least 14-day return policy for anything bought online (Batronix has 30-day return policy); then you just lose shipping costs.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 02:04:02 pm
content: right, both Reichelt and Pinsonne have to accept return within 14days without any reason. All you have to pay is the shipment - that's all. Reichelt as far i know can even pickup (not from everywhere available), Pinsonne can probably (in case you decide to buy another model) reduce the price (they did it for me once). So whatever shop yuo chose, it should be no big deal/loss when returning.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 02:08:43 pm
content: The Siglent has dual time base!Looks like that the Siglent is going to be the winner...

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2013, 09:41:57 am
content: Quote from: hgg on April 26, 2013, 02:08:43 pmright, all other DSOs on your potential candidate list (UNI-T, Hantek) have only ALT trigger with single timebase.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 06:31:48 am
content: So I have finally... made up my mind and I will go for the Siglent oscilloscope.Either the 70Mhz or the 100Mhz. I've read that the 70Mhz behaves almost like a 100Mhz one!Now the only thing that remains is to find a nice price and buy it. I've already found one sellerin ebay that says its the official representative in Europe, but when I ask him about the firmwareof the oscilloscope, he says that he doesn't know. Is this possible?Thank you very much for helping me choosing my first oscilloscope!I hope I've made the right choice.Thanks!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 07:46:58 am
content: Quote from: hgg on April 26, 2013, 02:08:43 pmWhy would you need dual time base on a DSO? Just capture at a high sample rate and then zoom in.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 07:48:21 am
content: Quote from: hgg on April 29, 2013, 06:31:48 amYes it is possible.Seller do not know these things if he (or his counterpart) just only receive cartons from other seller or factory and then ifsomeone buy they ship this carton forward.I think some of these sellers are just sellers who sell "nice boxes". No matter what is inside box, milk, parfumes, oscilloscopes, shirts or what ever where forward shipping get some money.(I know who seller you mean and I think he is not this lowest class of sellers who works just as "dropshipper". Perhaps he also can test and look version if you wait some time?)But this tell that seller sell just cartons where is equipment inside. He do not check and test units before sell. So it is just "as is from factory" what is just littlebit different as surplus "as is" in ebay.If seller check and test that unit is really ok, he also know this information.-----------------------------------------------------Why I test before I sell any unit:I think it is very sad situation where customer get new fail unit. It is really sad situation.I do not trust any chinese factory so much that I will sell anything without my own tests for every single equipment.In my tests I have stopped 99% of "new fail" units. Still there is of course possible that equipment fails in some rare cases.All these companies have proofed to me that this is important:example these:Rigol have teached me that this practice is wise.Hantek have teached me (lot of) that this practice is wise.Owon have teached me that this practice is wise.Siglent have teached me that this practice is wise.MCH have teached me (lot of and much more) this practice is wise.With all these exept two, this falure rate what I find before sell is quite low but after then lot of more rare. Yes it need work and also invest for test gears. There is no free lounges.But I can walk around and no need run away if I meet buyer afterwards.Btw, FW is one thing but more important is perhaps HW version!But if know FW, know also HW becouse it is same information screen in oscilloscope what tell all.It tell how many times scope is booted, FW, HW, Model and serial number.Then, if not at all open carton but IF carton is really physically available for check. In Siglent cartons, outrside of carton is serial number. Part of serial number include information about manufacturing time. If seller do not knoe even this... perhaps it is wise to think why seller do not know this or do not want know or tell.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 08:12:55 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 29, 2013, 07:46:58 amHave you never used oscilloscope for other work than just looking one single signal?Do you know why there is also other channel and for what all it can use. Do you know that some times need really look same time two signals what are not syncronized with each others. For this is ALT in many scopes. But then, it is somehow very limited if both signals can use only same horizontal speed.I do not at all understand your zoom comment related to this. Do you know what is this whole case about ALT and dual timebase ALT. I can understand your zoom comment if you really do not understand what is this.Tell me now how you look with normal zoom 2 separate signal what are not in synch.How if these two are so that other is example 50MHz and other is 1kHz and not in synch.Perhaps next then you ask why need look this kind of signal and who need this. This world is made so that if people do not know what he do not know he may think all is simple and no need know or use anything he do not know.Time ago I go to restaurant and I ask cup of coffee. Seller ask why I want coffee, we have tea.Without words I walk out.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 11:16:04 am
content: rf-loop thank you very much for your reply!Apart from the dual timebase which is like having two oscilloscopes on one screen, the Siglent hasalso a feature that I am not sure that many other scopes on the similar price range have. On theX-Y mode it has a variable sampling rate from 15Ksa/s to 250Msa/sI also like that it has a hardware frequency counter instead of a software one.The only thing that I am not sure about, its the fact that while on a single channel the samplingrate is 1GSa/s, in the dual channel mode its 500MSa/s but only when the timebase is faster than50ns/div. What if its slower than the 50ns/div? How low will it go? 250MSa/s or more?

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 12:02:24 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 29, 2013, 11:16:04 amThe sampling speed of DSOs is fixed - so above a certain time base, all DSOs automatically start slowing down their sampling rate: if you double the time for a 'sweep' (e.g. go from 1us/div to 2us/div), either the sampling rate has to be cut in half - or the sample size has to double. Since the latter is not really feasible, the rate is halved with each doubling of the time base.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 12:11:44 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on April 29, 2013, 08:12:55 amI think he misunderstood and was thinking of adelayedtime base (real time zoom) - and not adual(completely separate) time base on each channel.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 01:14:21 pm
content: It makes sense. Thank you for the explanation.So for up to 50ns/div is the 500MSa/s typical among these range of scopes?

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 01:34:08 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 29, 2013, 01:14:21 pmIt's really a math formula determined by the sampling speed and the sample length (and the waveform display size). I can't really speak about other scopes without looking at their data but I can give you some examples using my Rigol DS2000:With two channels, I have a maximum rate of 1GSa/s.With a sample length of 7kB, the sampling speed switches from 1GSa/s to 500MSa/s when I go from 500ns/div to 1us/div (and ~halves for every further increase in time base from then on).With a sample length of 7MB, the sampling speed switches from 1GSa/s to 500MSa/s when I go from 500us/div to 1ms/div (and ~halves for every further increase in time base from then on).But the amount of samples visible on the screen remains the same - the only thing that changes is the data that is captured pre- and post-display - which you would see if you stopped the DSO and 'zoomed' out.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 01:47:06 pm
content: In terms of the formula - if your DSO is sampling at 500MSa/s, that means each sample represents 2ns. So if your sample length is, for example, 1kB - and your waveform display area is 10 divs wide - I would think you could sample at 500MSa/s up to 200ns/div - i.e. 200ns / 2ns * 10 divs = 1000 bytes).

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 02:32:21 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on April 29, 2013, 11:16:04 amThese attached images have samplerate tables with different memory and time/div settings.Siglent SDS1102CML, 1072CML and 1072CNL samplrates.Rigol DS1052E + DS1102EOwon SDS7102Hantek 5000B. (hantek is older HW version and I have heard (but I have not tested) there is some improvement specially with long memory)-------In all these scopes X-Y mode is very poor.Siglent: In long memory mode you can turn samplerate up to 250Msa.. but. Its all. Result is "there is something in display...what it is..can not know" With 25M and much more low it may work better and even with some signals and some samplerates it can use for some things.It can do something but I do not know if any useful. Perhaps some low freg and low accuracy things just barely but more like just for play as toy. This is weak point in all these. It is nothing..really nothing like in good analog scope where you may run even some kind of slow scan "TV"Example if need adjust two 10MHz oscillators for exactly same frequency.. this lissajou image with X-Y mode is just "I do not want touch thisPerhaps it can use for some other slow freq low accuracy things but.. "not for my eyes".I remember some people who make some kind of component tester what draw "curve" but picture is very extremely "rough".My opinion is that with these oscilloscopes better method example for freq adjustment is: reference to CH1 and DUT to CH2. Trig CH1. Then adjust vertical and horizontal so that you have reasonable resolution in horizontal scale.About displayed and real sampling speed.ADC's work always full speed" Even if there is 1ksa/s(now I'm not sure how Siglent is constructed for this. 1Gsa/s it use all ADC's together and samplerate is 1GSa/s . If go to 2 channel, this ADC group is splitted.But if with single channel go to speed where sampling is 500Msa/s (50ns -> 100ns/div this ADC is splitted to two. (if now there is only one channel in use this other half of ADC group only works for nothing)I suspect that 100ns/div and slower speeds, independent of 1 or 2 channel, true samplerate for channel is 500MSa/s. This is meaningful only if think peak mode limits.Example if samplerate is 5MSa/s it just drop out 99 true samples and keep one. (this is meaningful if think how "peak" mode works. (and how high resolution mode in some oscilloscopes work - in this scope, there is no high res mode)Samplerate tables.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 02:55:14 pm
content: I see.rf-loop I've sent you an email. Did you receive it?Thanks!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 07:36:10 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on April 29, 2013, 08:12:55 amWatching two signals which have no relation is always difficult with an oscilloscope. Dual timebase is not triggering on two different signals. That makes no sense because where is your reference point? Dual timebase means you can trigger on a signal and view an enlarged portion of it after an adjustable delay (usually its called B sweep). On an analogue scope you can use this feature to zoom in on part of a signal.With a DSO you just capture a long record and zoom in on the part of the signal you want.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 05:31:23 pm
content: Hi,Thank you for the voting.The results are interesting indeed!Rigol is clearly the winner but maybe this is because more people have worked with it.It is the safest choice.Poor Uni-T has only one vote...but maybe this is because nobody has any experiencewith it yet.Despite the fact that Rigol is the safest choice I think I will still go with the Siglent becauseit looks like an upgraded Rigol that is not yet tested enough. Larger display, better bandwidth,2.5 times faster wfrm/s, more knob controls and a silent fan. I think i will try it and I hope I amnot making a mistake...Anybody that has any real negative experience with the Siglent please tell me so before I makethe mistake...One last question.My first projects will be basically Arduino circuits and measuring photodiodes and photoresistors.Do you think that the 70Mhz will be enough, or should I go for the 100Mhz?Thank you very much for your help!rf-loop thank you for the countless pages of unbiased information!

author: eevblogfan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 05:34:20 pm
content: HOLD YOUR HORSES !I am with contact with Uni-T distributor please wait till I'll get the Uni-T and I am going to test it . I really think you should wait and consider that

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 05:39:21 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on May 02, 2013, 05:31:23 pmUnbiased? He is a Siglent/Atten reseller, who in the past even ran a few sockpuppets here to promote his business. That and rather strange claims about Siglent quality.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 05:46:24 pm
content: Bored@Worked I would have to say that in my case rf-loop was indeed unbiased, telling me all theproblems that the Siglent unit has. He also sells Owon. He also helped me with a lot of info whileme trying to buy the Siglent from a different seller in Germany! So I think this is unfair.eevblogfan where have you been !!! Now you are telling me...?I would definitely have to wait now!Do you have a shipping date?

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 05:55:14 pm
content: mojo-chan my only experience with Uni-T is the UT61E multimeter and I have to say thatthe build quality is excellent, the accuracy is great especially if you consider the price rangeand the probes are exceptional again for the price range. Only negative is that they are abit stiff. They have an internal resistance of 0.06 Ohms. I bought the Fluke TL175 probes andthey have a 0.05 Ohms... I paid half the price of UT61E for the TL175 and I only got slightlybetter probes. Also Fluke does not mention anywhere the internal resistance of the TL175!Not very professional I think. If you want to measure low current its a very important factor.Maybe other Uni-T products are indeed of bad quality.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 07:25:12 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on May 02, 2013, 05:31:23 pmFor some reason, UNI-T scopes are not much sold in English speaking countries. UNI-T doesn't update their English website.http://www.uni-trend.com.hk/You must use their chinere website to get up-to-date information. What the hell?http://www.uni-trend.com.cn/cp.aspEven Owon has a better english website.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 10:12:29 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 30, 2013, 07:36:10 pmin case of these DSO the dual timebase is addition to ALT trigger, so you do have two referece points andeach of them can be set to own timebase/trigger. The word "dual timebase" can be easy misunderstoodby people knowing the "dual timebase" from analog scopes, which was complettly different thing.More interessting is to know how far the dual timebase can be used, e.g. is 2ns/DIV for ch1 and 2ms/DIV for ch2working smooth? Are there any relais clicks when set to such big difference? Is there visible difference (delay in chaniging between channels) when timebase for both channels is equal and when set to 2ns/DIV for ch1 and 2ms/DIV for ch2 ?

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 11:16:03 am
content: Quote from: hgg on May 02, 2013, 05:31:23 pmit is not the best choise, it is because Dave said "Rigol DS1000 is good", search the forum (or even other forums) and youwill see many such statements. What ppl didn't understood he didn't said "others are bad", because he haven't testedothers in this price class. Probably the worst i saw was as someone posted Dave's DS2xxx vs DS1xxx video comparisionand did use it as "proove" for DS1xxx quality ... where i'm asing myself where to f* the poster saw in that video somethinggood in DS1xxx? I saw only what BETTER and MUCH BETTER on DS2xxx and how the technology changed and thebung for buck value - but not a single statement that DS1xxx is still usefull or BETTER than other chinese DSOs.Anyway, i and others tested other chinese DSOs, where of course everybody have (regardless of the technical aspects)some own preferences :e.g. Dave likes knobs, so he have no problems to use single knob for two channels, where i don't like to spend time onplaying with knobs/buttions where it is not necessary - therefore separate knobs for me are the best.marmad likes the thin Owon enclosure and don't like the Tektronix (and all the likes, e.g. Hantek/Tekway) where ilike it more when the DSO can't be moved by single button push; others like other things etc.Before i decided to take Tekway DST1102B, i tested UNI-T (UT2102CE), Rigol (DS1102E) and Atten (ADS1102CE).Where Rigol's bad point was primary display and the single knob crap, other failed with so many things that i even didn'twrote it down. But that was YEARS ago, technology changed, so i would not say today "don't buy newer ATTEN/Siglent orUNI-T because models i test are bad". Later i tested Tonghui (today old model already), Owon SDS and evenRigol CA (due the price change, it wasn't in my price scope before) - not that i was about to buy another DSO, i was onlycurious what other can/how they build. I did posted my findings in their own threads (if available, or simply somewhere),some of my bad impressions has been even fixed by manufacturers (like UNI-T crap ADCs, UNI-T PCB<->PSU distance,Owon crosstalk, Owon PCB layout and interferences from swithcing converter, tons of Hantek/Tekway things, etc.).Others here (and other forums) did similar things (review/teardown/simple tests) as well, so lot of informations is available,unfortunatelly not all current models has been tested so there are questions with no answer (like UNI-T 150k wfms/s ^^)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 02:12:04 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on May 02, 2013, 05:39:21 pmYes, rf-loop was posting under multiple accounts on this forum having conversations with himself about Siglent gear!That other account was banned.The only reason rf-loop's main account wasn't banned is because he has and does provide good technical detail here.Now that he's been "exposed" for those sock-puppet accounts, hopefully it won't happen again.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 02:18:34 pm
content: Quote from: tinhead on May 03, 2013, 11:16:03 amCorrect.And bare in mind that my Rigol review is now over4 years old!I cringe every time someone points to the review as if it's a current viewpoint.QuoteNo, I greatly prefer separate knobs for each channel!You have to remember that when I reviewed the Rigol it was by far the best value scope on the market, bar none, by a country mile. They had no competition.Now there are at least 3-4 others scopes with better (on paper at least) specs for the same price.

author: sorin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 02:26:09 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 03, 2013, 02:12:04 pmAre you serous?I understand multiple accounts but "having conversations with himself", a normal person can't do that.Maybe are 2-3 different persons from the same PC

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 03:25:13 pm
content: Quote from: sorin on May 03, 2013, 02:26:09 pmSure, it's easy (and an often used tactic to manipulate discussions on forums).

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 03:50:27 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 03, 2013, 02:18:34 pmSo its true. Not very nice... Maybe he regretted doing it. We all make mistakes sometimes.Anyway,Dave please HEEELP!You have to do a review on the Siglent CML series!People might save some money. If it turns out good people will save some money by buying somethingrelatively cheap and fully functional. It it turns out bad people will again save a lot more!A win-win situation... except from you that will have to find one Siglent unit...

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 07:50:58 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on May 03, 2013, 03:50:27 pmThe truth, and the truth which has been slightly modified.Peoples can read truth about what I have talked using "aghp" account. (As long as they stay unmodified.)https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10637;area=showposts;start=0/url]Some place may also find what leads in history to this situation.Two accounts without administrator accept was my mistake. Original purpose for this was much more simple than try make some kind of marketing work. aghp is distributor. One wrong word and some "xxxxx" company shoot me down. rf-loop (originally) can tell also things what distributor can not. But perhaps this is too difficult to understand.But if look content of aghp messages... please do not read all, there is veeery dirty things.Of course these messages are good reason to immediately shut down and ban or...I have strong suspect it was not true reason for ban. But there was nice and easy reason to do it.On this forum here is, and have been, many kind of peoples who have really been very difficult for other people but for those matters moderators tend to look the other way or sleep. Perhaps it is even entertainment for some individuals. It is easy to see adopted.But I did a crime which apparently was extremely bad.I do not defend the act, however, in my view, but the truth is the best.If these words are now enough reasons for ban rf-loop then it is. Then I know more about this...

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2013, 04:14:28 am
content: Ok,I think I know theperfect wayto make Dave review the Siglent CML oscilloscope.All we have to do is throw a broken one in the Dumpster !!!

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2013, 08:52:29 am
content: Quote from: tinhead on May 03, 2013, 10:12:29 amHere in these images what you ask, and litlebit more.Relay clicks. No. In this mode both channels its own 500MSa/s ADC group in all time/div settings.Between 2.5ns -100ns/div all is ok.If other channel is in this speed area and other channel is 250ns/div or more slow, it produce systematic 2ns shift in other channel. I have not (of course) tested all possible settings combinations but it seems just systematic. Somehow it loose one sample period (2ns). This is bug.(if need, it can correct using skew adjustment but then if forget it on it may lead some time to error. Of course if in ALT mode one channel is example 10ms/div then other channel update rate is also slow. It is ALTernative mode.Bot channels trigger can select free separately, both channel time/div can select free, both channel can selected for math (but there is only one Math process so ther can not be dual math process)There all images are from ALT mode!Most of images signal is equal to both channel. (One signal splitted to both channel and made so that there is minimal time difference(<<50ps)In last picture (bottom picture in "8_SDS1102CML_ALT_........"There CH1 sinewave is fully unsyncronized with CH2 signal. They come from totally separate sources, and source equipments not connected to workshop frequency reference distribution.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2013, 09:08:02 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on May 04, 2013, 08:52:29 amNice; it's a pity it's not a standard feature on DSOs. So they're using individual, non-interleaved ADCs on each channel?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2013, 09:37:57 am
content: Quote from: marmad on May 04, 2013, 09:08:02 amThere is 10 ADC clocked with 100MHz. In dual channel mode there is 5ADC + 5ADC and both groups of 5ADC are internally interleaved (5 + 5 phase shifted clocks). In one channel mode with high speeds these are combined to one 10ADC group and interleaved. (10 phase shifted clocks)It is this "classic" consept as example in Rigol DS1000E (10x ADC) and as is in Hantek 5000B (there is 8xADC). These 10ADC is 5 pcs double ADC IC. I do not know sure but looks like same ADC what Rigol and Hantek also use.If they use same ADC family what is used in Owon SDS and Rigol DS2000 result can be better (and littlebit more expensive solution)

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2013, 09:41:23 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on May 04, 2013, 08:52:29 amthat looks indeed good, thanks for pictures/clarification.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2013, 02:17:06 pm
content: QuoteNot sure if it's much important, but for some reason I prefer scopes with real one chip ADC 1GS/s per channel.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2013, 03:00:04 pm
content: I agree. At high sample rates the jitter must be closely controlled so supress noise. With 10 interleaved ADCs and shifted clocks it will be very hard to keep the jitter below a few picoseconds.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2013, 03:10:46 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on May 04, 2013, 02:17:06 pmThe thing is that 1GHz ADCs are still more expensive than ten 100MHz ADCs, and therefore won't be used in low cost DSOs.At the end of the day, you get what you pay for.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2013, 03:23:50 pm
content: Is there a way to actually measure this jitter on each oscilloscope?

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 10:00:55 am
content: you don't need to measure jitter, the whole discussion about jitter is simply bullshit.Why? well, let explain based on Rigol DS1000E.The clock source (for FPGA) is based on a crystal and two gates (oscilator and driver), this circuit give us max. 2ps jitter. So far everything ok, 2ps aperture jitter and 8bit (oh well, AD9288 give us best case 7.4bit) is good for 250MHz signal. But then we have FPGA, using DCM (or PLL in other similar DSOs), which produce extra 30-50ps jitter. This is already only good enough for 7.4bit by 40MHz signal (ups, so far about 8bit 100MHz DSO). My numbers are based on AN501A and other app notes. However they (app note autors) didn't take into count the fact that Rigol (and all the other chinese DSOs using similar circuit) not using dedicated DCM/PLL clock out pins, but regular i/o pins. In principle we have now 7.4bit by 20MHz. But that would be in perfect world, all chinse manufacturers have to save money, so you will not find enough blocking caps in all low cost chinese DSOs. With combination of this together with cheap PSU you can assume the ENOB is reduced once again, i assume we somewhere at 6bit now. What next, yeah, the crap unshielded PSU in few cm distance from ADCs. Is it all? Shit no, Rigol, and the other manufacturer as well, using overlocked DCs. It is hard to say how bad is it, i did masured only influence on Hantek DSOs (as they clocking faster) and yes, that was not good at all as well. What else, hmm, ahh, right. Due the FPGA/regular i/o pins situation the skew between clocks is more or less "randomized", hehe, so all manufacturer working with "cross zero" calibration to align data. However, this method works afterall not that great, when sampling with wrong skew the resulting data is dominated by interleave distortion (which you can see on all these DSOs, especially single shot). There are of course other aspects not making these DSOs better, i've made Hantek schematics, "A Helene" made Rigol DS1000E schematic - check both, check pictures of Rigol/Atten/UNI-T/Hantek/Siglent/etc. PCB and you will find that they very similar. Very similar in case of "price driven design" as well, look for me as someone (probably one of the EEs) said "who really care, we reduced already so many things that the whole DSO didn't make sense anymore, so let's cut few other things as well" ^^I don't remember what DSOs was this, but i saw clearly unpopulaed clock chip and ADCs clocked with FPGA, like if someone decided "later" to produce crap instead of proper designed thing.Of course, with some software tricks, the "resultion" can be increased a bit, all these manufacturers working with similar tricks.So the question about jitter is pointless, this are low budget DSOs, simply take one from your list and you will be happy as much as with others.Btw, these DSOs are better in the case of interleave distortion:(only when two channels enabled, single channel still interleaved - but clocked by proper low jitter source)Rigol DS1xxxCA seriesOwon SDS seriesSiglent CFL seriesHameg HMO seriesRigol DS2xxx seriesInstek GDS2000A seriesAgilent DSOX2000 seriesBtw, you can easily buy 20k USD DSO and still see lot of interleave distortion, this shows how complex is to achieve good results.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 10:07:16 am
content: and here some other interessting informations

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 01:25:32 pm
content: Very nice info!So, jitter is dependent on frequency. The higher the frequency the more the jitter.Lets say that we have a known low jitter signal for a specific frequency. If we feed that to theoscilloscope under test, use the lowest time base and volts/div and switch on persistence,wouldn't we be able to measure phase and amplitude jitter with some certainty?Because jitter is depended on thermal noise, is it possible to minimize it by using for examplePeltier cooling on the ADCs? Just a thought. Water cooled oscilloscopes...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 05:09:12 pm
content: No you got that wrong. The amount of jitter that can be tolerated depends on the frequency and the number of bits. Imagine you are sampling a sine wave in the zero crossing (where the sine wave's slew rate is at its highest). Jitter causes the sampling point to move a bit so it is not exactly in the zero crossing. If there is a lot of jitter the sampling point will move so far away that the wrong value is sampled which causes a faulty reading.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 06:24:11 pm
content: So, how can we measure the jitter of our oscilloscope?

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 06:44:36 pm
content: First post so I will start with the obligatory yet also deserved nod of the hat to Dave. His various videos have been my entertainment over the past few days as I've waited for laser cutters to do their things... though I actually noticed his Youtube stuff long before that.So recently I decided to try to find a new o-scope... and it is 2013 so this seems the right thread in which to ask. Since my budget was really tight ($300) I was looked around on the usual places. I've also been looking at the various reviews and this site has proven to be VERY useful with regards to detailing the differences between the scopes. Anyway, in the end I bought a LeCroy Waveace 1001. Now before anyone dashes my dreams of owning a scope from the big brands, yes, it's a Siglent with a different box. That said, it's configuration is a bit different than the Attens and Siglents normally found sound of say $350. It's got the 1Gs/s sample rate and the 2Mpt memory of the "higher end" Attens/Siglent models but the compromise is the 40 Mhz front end. As with the Rigol and the Tekway/Hantek I assume this is probably only a software limit. Thus does anyone know if this scope family has been... um... enhanced by amateurs the way the Rigol and Hanteks were?Thanks so much!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 07:10:35 pm
content: Quote from: Robomeds on May 05, 2013, 06:44:36 pmI hope you didn't pay too much for it. The 70MHz Siglent original (the WaveAce 1000 Series are Siglent SDS1000CML scopes) can be bought for roughly $390 with shipping:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Siglent-SDS1072CML-Oscilloscope-70MHz-1GSa-s-Real-Time-Sample-Rate-2Mpts-Memory-/160931280364?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item25784075ecYou can apparently even flash the LeCroy firmware on these scopes. The only thing you'd have to do yourself would be to paint it black ,-)QuoteI'm not aware of any hacks for these scopes. I'd guess at least the 40/70/100MHz variants are the same, though, but you never know.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 07:34:44 pm
content: No, I was under $300 for this one. I spent a lot of time trolling ebay and other places looking around. Near $400 offered some nicer options including the Hanteks (hackable and high resolution screens). But at the $300 and under range it seemed my options were very limited. I don't think the 40mhz limit is going to really mess with any of the work I would likely do. Rarely have I needed anything that fast in the past hence I wasn't too worried about the 40 mhz limit. However, knowing that it was likely just a software switch away from 100 mhz doesn't mean I'm not tempted to see if an upgrade is possible.

author: jebcom
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2013, 03:39:25 am
content: QuoteCongratulations on getting your scope. I think you'll be very happy with it.But just for the record, for other readers, a new Hantek 70 MHz is available for US$280 delivered:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hantek-DSO5072P-Digital-Oscilloscope-70MHz-1Gs-2CH-7-TFT-WVGA-800x480-/121089632989?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item1c31812add

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2013, 05:06:19 am
content: I was thinking about that model but the P model doesn't have the deep memory. The hack thread suggested the 70 Mhz model can be upgraded to 200. I like that the Hantek has the 800x480 screen as well. I'm typically a resolution junky. But now we get back into the tradeoffs. The P model scope you linked to is basically the same price I paid. Both scopes have their pros and cons. Really given my price point it was hard to decide what to get yet I also don't have a specific need other than "mechatronics" projects so it's hard to know that I'm better off with the higher bandwidth vs the extra memory. Most of the work I've done with scopes over the years has been glitch or digital signal sorts of captures, not repetitive wave forms so I guessed the extra memory would be the way to go. When I was learning mechatronics we were using mid 90s HP digital scopes, 60mhz, very limited memory. Since I'm looking at doing that sort of stuff as a hobby again those are my benchmark for performance. Well most of these scopes exceed the old HPs in many ways so it's a bit hard to guess which way is going to be the important one for me.To some extent I'm hoping that a Rigol like hack comes around as I rather expect the 40 mhz scope has the same guts as a 100mhz model. I'm not 100% certain I made the best choice but I don't think it will really be worse than the other potential choices at this price point. I did think about upping the ticket but I really can't do that given this is pure hobby work.Incidentally that doesn't stop at this price point. The lab where I work has an HP 6000 series scope. I love the XGA screen but not the 7" size... or HP's interface. Then again I don't use it that much.Off topic but one more thanks to Dave, I just watched his history of test gear via AE magazine. I finally figured out that my B&K 5360 multimeter is actually a Metrix MX58HD. All sorts of fun info around here

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2013, 02:33:02 pm
content: Well, I would never buy this LeCroy WaveAce 1001, but it is still much more feature rich than old Tektronix TDS1000 or TBS1000.http://www.tek.com/datasheet/oscilloscope/tbs1000-digital-storage-oscilloscope-digital-storage-oscilloscopesThe TBS1000 is a high quality product, but too obsolete technology from 1996... Small screen and 2500 points per channel...

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2013, 05:05:24 pm
content: Other than the 40mhz bandwidth (Hoping for a hack since i suspect this is a software limit) which I'm not sure is going to be an issue for my uses, what other issues would you see with this scope. At sub $300 it certainly seems you can't be picky. Really, even at the $500 limit which seems to cover most of the low cost meters it still seems you have a trade off. My impression is Rigol is a known thing but has the smallest and lowest resolution screen. Hantek/Tekway etc have better screens but limited connectivity and slow refresh rates when using lots of memory. The poor screen visibility from above does mater to me since right now I don't expect the thing to live on a shelf. The Hanteks were actually my backup plan.The Uni-Ts seem to have little information but people don't seem fond of them.Siglent (Atten, LeCroy) seemed to have had a number of software glitches but the latest information I found suggests they have been fixed. The screen resolution isn't great but from what I could find it seemed like, compared to the Rigol, the systems had similar performance except the Rigol, historically, had better firmware. I didn't see that the Rigol was better in use.I also really liked the Owon but the very slow screen refresh rate bothered me. I really liked the large SVGA screen. I might have picked it as first out of the group if cost was no object.BTW, I also was considering holding out for an HP 5462x series scope. I saw one go for $240 without probes on ebay. I don't like the extra size of the older CTR display but I did like the idea of a 350k wf/s refresh rate. The memory size was good but the 200 Ms/s seemed slow for a 100 mhz scope. It didn't include probes.Really, at my price point the question is what do you want to compromise in a field of compromised choices.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2013, 11:17:32 am
content: Ok, I finally bought the 100MhzSiglent SDS1102CML.366 Euros shipped to Greece from Germany.Let's hope I did not make a mistake.I will take some photos and videos when it arrives.What tests can I do to check that the unit I receive its not a lemon?What about measuring accuracy, noise etc?Thanks.

author: EasyDoor
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 07, 2013, 12:03:46 pm
content: Sorry for storming into a thread, but i have a question about displays and creating a new thread to topic related so closely to yours is pointless... so here it goesWill the resolution of a scope's display adjust itself to match the external monitor? (will it get better?)For example, could a scope with a lesser quality of built-in display (lower resolution, smaller dimensions of screen) have the same quality/resolution compared to a scope with superior (larger, better) displaywhen BOTH connected to same external (PC) monitorI noticed that scopes with larger screentend to cost more, and as I have a few spare LCD monitors laying around and I do not do terrain/mobile work (will use it 90% of the time in my workshop) it would narrow my choice of a scope a lot!Buying smaller- cheaper (or even same price but better performance, bandwidth etc. and exchanging the price difference for a smaller display) and plugging it into external LCD monitor sounds like a great idea- that is, if someone can confirm that picture indeed gets better when displayed on a larger resolution screenplease respond!

author: casper.bang
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2013, 01:24:18 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on May 07, 2013, 11:17:32 amAwesome hgg, that's also the one I have narrowed in on (chose to get Agilent E3610A PSU + U1272A DMM combo first though). Good luck with it and please keep us posted!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2013, 01:39:53 pm
content: Quote from: EasyDoor on May 07, 2013, 12:03:46 pmYou should have opened a new thread, as your question has nothing to do with the scopes discussed in this thread (none of them have an external monitor output), and hijacking threads is considered rude by many.QuoteThis depends on the scopes, but for lower end models the answer is usually "no", as the external output directly mirrors the internal display.It's a bit different with midrange and highend scopes that run Windows, as these usually are able to display different resolutions on the external port, and many even support multi-monitor mode.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2013, 01:48:56 pm
content: QuoteI will indeed !Can't wait...p.s. quite an expensive combo!I am looking for a P.S. as well and I think I will get the Korad.http://www.ebay.com/itm/110888868115I will have to research for that further though.

author: Donziboy2
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2013, 10:01:57 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on May 07, 2013, 01:39:53 pmThe OWON SDS7102 has VGA out, and some of them have Scope to PC software to display waveforms on the PC.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2013, 10:19:24 pm
content: Quote from: Donziboy2 on May 08, 2013, 10:01:57 pmLike any other Windows program the PC software does not limit the max resolution you can use on your PC, which has nothing to do with the resolution of a scope's display or what resolution is available on a scope's external monitor output.

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 04:44:59 pm
content: Even though the OP of the thread has already made his decision and got the scope he wants I thought I would link to this video I found by accident that features the Uni-T UTD2102CM.You can jump right to about 2:49 to see the scope. It isn't exactly a demo video but at least you will have a good look at the actual thing. The presenter mentions its 150k wfms/s capture rate and he seems very happy about it for the work he does.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 05:49:54 pm
content: Quote from: iloveelectronics on May 25, 2013, 04:44:59 pmSmells like a fake unboxing. He claims "it is really good", while he hasn't even finished unpacking it. Typical rubbish video by someone who needs to confirm to himself what a smart buyer he is.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 06:29:18 pm
content: Quote from: iloveelectronics on May 25, 2013, 04:44:59 pmYes, he mentions the 150k wfrm/s that Uni-T claims in their specs. But I haven't seen a single shred of evidence yet to confirm it; there is no YouTube video demonstrating this (for the price class) incredibly high rate.BTW, he also mentions that most other DSOs in this price class have 1500-3000 wfrm/s - which isnotcorrect.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 06:39:12 pm
content: Hantek Aoto probe??? that must be chinese Auto

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 06:51:09 pm
content: http://youtu.be/94-SYCJ0QsEWell, why is the screen glossy as a mirror? I haven't noticed it even at Rigol, Siglent or any scope...And here he is using the scope.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 11:48:51 pm
content: Clearly the Uni-T is not doing any intensity grading - which means all waveform information is just being conveyed by on/off pixels at whatever the refresh rate of the LCD is.Also, there is a long close-up of 2us/div (when he's looking at an 11% duty 94kHz square wave) and when I compare it to a similar waveform displayed on the Rigol DS2000 at that scale (which does 5k wfrm/s then), perhaps it's just the intensity grading, but the rendition of the waveform seems to be at a much faster rate than the Uni-T.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 12:10:20 am
content: Well, if UTD2102CM was a bang per buck scope, they would sell it in Czech Republic... There is an Unitrend distributor. And there are still no better reviews of UTD2102CM. Although it looks better than Rigol DS1000, it's probably not true...

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 04:33:13 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on May 25, 2013, 05:49:54 pmIt's not a live unboxing. He mentions in the earlier part of the video that he has been using it for a couple of weeks or something.In any case, I'm not trying to say anything good or bad about this scope, just thought I would share a video that I found accidentally that features this scope. It doesn't seem like there's much information about it on the internet at all.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 02:44:44 pm
content: Even the UNI-T manufacturer didn't make any videoprobably.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2013, 08:16:07 am
content: It looks like I made a mistake....buying the Siglent after all....Although the videos were not about the oscilloscope, I could see that it has a better screen althoughit looks like that you cannot switch off the right and bottom menus off. The build quality looks ok aswell. Since he was working with transients and he was happy with the scope its definitely fasterthan 2000wfms/s. Maybe not as good as the Rigol but for the price definitely better than the Siglent.I also liked that you can easily select which measurements you want to see in the bottom of thescreen. I haven't found yet how to do that on the Siglent. You can only adjust the 5 values displayedon the right. If you press the default setup button, it will display some values like the UNI-T but theywill disappear if you change any other setting.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2013, 08:39:22 am
content: Quote from: hgg on May 27, 2013, 08:16:07 amHow does this compute?

author: Nermash
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2013, 08:45:05 am
content: Quote from: hgg on May 27, 2013, 08:16:07 amI wouldn't bet on it. IMHO this guy on the video is not that high of an authority on dsos.I would however bet that the update rate is on par with DS1052E and SDS7102.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2013, 11:02:58 am
content: Just an assumption.He specifically mentioned that he needed a fast sampling scope.If he was looking for signal glitches and was able to see them live maybe that's why he was satisfied.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2013, 11:31:14 am
content: Quote from: hgg on May 27, 2013, 11:02:58 amWell, the problem is that if your DSO doesn't 'see' glitches you won't see them either - so you wouldn't know if you were missing information unless you had something to compare against. And of course, the duration and repetition of a glitch plays a major factor in if/how quickly a DSO will see it at a given time base and update rate..I studied the video carefully (especially the close-ups of the Uni-T display at different time base settings) and I couldn't see any indications of a fast waveform update rate. I realize this is not conclusive of course - but if you watched the exact same video being performed with any of the > 50k wfrm/s DSOs currently on the market - you would notice the speed more obviously.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2013, 11:38:34 am
content: What indication were you looking for?Screen refresh? Maybe it will not show always on screen, but it will be captured in memory.I've seen some very fast random spikes on the video.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2013, 12:38:43 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on May 27, 2013, 11:38:34 amThis is not necessarily true. Anyway, I'm on a train with bad WiFi at the moment, so access to materials is limited - but I suggest you watch videos of actual fast waveform update DSOs and compare.From Dave's video, here is an image of the Rigol doing ~347 waveforms per second and the Instek doing ~7900 waveforms per second.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 01:32:48 pm
content: Hi,I contacted Russ, the person in the two previous videos were he was usingthe UNI-T oscilloscope and ask him if he can give us some information on the scope.Below is his reply:Quote

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 04:09:43 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on May 30, 2013, 01:32:48 pmI posted a short video clip here in another thread in case you haven't read it:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/uni-t-utd2102cm-waveform-capture-rate/

author: ChildOfVision
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 09:39:43 pm
content: Hi, sorry to jump into thread, but I didn't know where to put my question!I have two days to decide betweenVoltcraft 3062D(=Hantek DSO5062B = Tekway DST1062B) orSIGLENT SDS1072CML. I have read as much as I could about these scopes, I'm not an expert, know something about 3062D, but, frankly, I never heard about Siglents!Voltcraft is from here:Voltcraft DSO-1062Dand Siglent is from amazon.de:Siglent SDS1072CMLAs far as I see, Siglent has lower bw (70MHz) compared to Voltcraft (100MHz), but everything else speaks in favour of Siglent: 2Mpoints memory, more "auto-measure" options, 2 USB and RS-232. BUT, as I said - never heard about Siglent until now, so I need yourquickopinion/recommendation PLEEEEEASE!Volcraft = 330€ (~440USD) in Conrad, and Siglent is 299€ (~400USD) from amazon.de. There is also 100MHz Siglent SDS1102CNL (CNL = "only" 40Mpts mem.depth) on amazon but I already breached 300€ budget!Btw. I can't find data about refresh rate - so, simple said, can Voltcraft or Siglent show "oscillofun demo" (e.g. Rigol 1052 can't)? Can Siglent be hacked to higher bw?Thank you all in advance, and sorry for my poor English!ChildOfVision

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 12:07:42 am
content: I'd go for the Siglent. If its says Voltcraft you know its crappy.

author: ChildOfVision
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 12:29:44 am
content: Thanks nctnico!As I explore more about those scopes - I'm going closer and closer to Siglent SDS1072CML ! I wonder if somebody has that exact o'scope - his/heropinion would be great!?Is it worth to pay extra 50€ for 100MHz version (1072CML is 70MHz with 2Mpoints long memory)? Can 1072 be hacked (harmlessly) to higher BW?ANY opinion/suggestion highly appreciated!

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 12:44:05 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 13, 2013, 12:07:42 amI would not say that Voltcraft is crappy... They just sell rebranded instruments from Asian manufacturers... Like Metex, GW Instek, CEM or Unitrend...And for those who never heard about Siglent.Siglent produces scopes for Atten, BK precision and LeCroy.Compare pictures of that scope. They should be OK for the price.LeCroy Waveace 112ATTEN ADS1102CMIn fact, there is a little difference inside the scopes.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 12:58:30 am
content: Quote from: ChildOfVision on June 12, 2013, 09:39:43 pmHave you seen this video??

author: ChildOfVision
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 01:01:41 am
content: Well, actually I heard about that brand some time ago but forgot with time...Quote from: HydrawerkYes, I just found that underMcVoice'sLeCroy's "skin" is often Siglent's heart !I'm 90% sure: will take Siglent! The question remains: can it be hacked like Voltcraft?

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 01:05:04 am
content: I don't know, I have other scope.

author: ChildOfVision
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 01:41:32 am
content: Thank you VERY MUCH, Hydrawerk, for videos!No I didn't see them before!If I understood correctly, from the first video - those are some other scopes (not "my" SDS1072CML) but manufactured clearly by Siglent! OK.Second video: I suppose you wanted to show me how "crappy Chinese child toy" that "Voltcraft" or whatever "brand" from Conrad is? OK, I got a clue - at least I (finally) saw that scope from the back! But I also saw great WF refresh rate - if only somebody knows does Siglent 1072CML has such a fast refreshing!?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 03:44:09 am
content: Quote from: ChildOfVision on June 12, 2013, 09:39:43 pmI just shot a first impressions video of the Tekway/Hantek and I wasn't all that impressed.Bit slower than the old Rigol 1052E, had a bunch of firmware issues and lockups, and the pulse response of the input seemed pretty terrible (compared to 3 other scopes).

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 04:24:23 am
content: I am impressed by the high recommendations the Rigol DS1052E is getting. I find it hard to believe that it is still the best buy in a scope in 2013. Perhaps it is still a good by in the bottom of the range of scopes. To me the Hanteks must be better but I have no experience with them so it is only speculation. I would bet that the survey results reflect more how many people have each of these scopes than the actual experience of these scopes.

author: ChildOfVision
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 06:29:24 am
content: Quote from: EEVBlog (Dave? :) )Maybe you didn't fully understand - my English ...After watching videos, and after consultation here on forum, I almost 100% decided to take Siglent SDS1072CML. I didn't choose between Voltcraft 3062D, Hantek DSO5062B or Tekway DST1062B, which are, of course, the same, butbetween 3062D and Siglent 1072CML!Now, if somebody can tell me (I know I'm a bit off-topic, sorry) aboutWF "refresh rate" and "hack" possibility.Siglent 1072CML is pretty cheap (300€ from amazon.de, abt. 400USD) here, for example: Rigol 1052E in Conrad is 475€ or 635 USD believe or not! Over e-stores is much cheaper.Anyway, I found Siglent 1072CML as a best choice for my (tiny) budget, and to be honest, I was amazed two years ago with Rigol 1052, we all know "everything" about its internal organs(thanks to Dave's no-mercy-teardown), but now, just like Lightages, I don't understand why is still sooooo popular and "best-buy" scope in 2013?Hope somebody knows more about Siglent's things posted above!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 06:43:27 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on June 13, 2013, 04:24:23 amWell, it's probably because it's the most refined of the budget scopes, and it has a dependable reputation. It does exactly what it claims, no more, no less.Apart form that it's bang-per-buck is not as good as many others, and also it's feature set is limited compared to more modern scopes.It's kinda like the Fluke 87 of the budget scope world.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 06:46:34 am
content: Quote from: ChildOfVision on June 13, 2013, 06:29:24 amThe Rigol 1052E in most parts of the world is very cheap.Even here in Australia (notorious for high test gear prices), it's only AU$329+GST, or 233€+10%

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 04:11:22 pm
content: Well, Rigol is a company that produces many series of scopes. (DS1000, DS2000, DS4000, DS6000...)Tekway produces only one series... Well, in2010it was a good scope! At that time there was no Agilent DSOX2000, no Owon SDS7102, no Rigol DS2000.

author: bjoernx
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 18, 2013, 12:23:35 pm
content: @ChildOfVisionI am currently looking out for the available low-budget options too.In germany, the best price I could find for the Rigol-DS1052E is € 284,41 from batronix:http://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Rigol-DS1052E.htmlI wouldn't buy any expensive gear from Conrad, they are generally very expensiveSiglents are available here:http://www.futu-tech.de/produkt/siglent-sds1072cml-digital-oscilloscopeoszilloskope/289,00 € for the 70MHz CML scope (349€ for 100, 425€ for 150).Same seller as on amazon, free shipping plus 3 years warranty, for what it's worth. Shop looks like a chinaware importer trying to do more serious business than competitors, real tech-support an so on. Looks fine by me.For Siglent, also check out their website:http://www.siglent.com/en/product/detail.aspx?id=100000005058775&nodecode=119008001After signing up they give access to manuals and firmware updates. It is even possible to flash firmware on these things from the identical re-branded stuff (Atten, Xytron, Lecroy Waveace), but I would not recommend.The Conard DSO-1062D is also available from Voelkner here (the have most Conrad gear):http://www.voelkner.de/products/376954/VOLTCRAFT-Vorteilsset-DSO-1062D-2-Kanal-Oszilloskop-Digitales-Speicheroszilloskop-Bandbreite-60-MH.htmlBeware: There have been some negative reports for the 200Mhz-Hack with this one (on mikrocontroller.net AFAIR). Also, a HW-Redesign is said to be due sometime this year (because the main-processor from Samsung is EOL).My favourite one as of now is the Siglent CML, same here.I would also very much like to know, wether they are identical in HW or what the difference may be... The mainboard I assume will be identical, but I haven't seen any serious teardowns yet with details on the front-end side (that is where the bandwidth comes from, as I understand the mysteries of these machines so far).I might accompany that with the Openbench Logic Sniffer soon, will try to hook that LA up to the Pass/Fail Output. This idea (dunno wether it's doable at all or makes any practical sense, but what the heck...) took me away from the Hantek/Conrad 1062-D, because it has no such output on the back. The Rigol was second choice until I stumbled upon the Siglents just recently. Then, the Hantek has Linux on it (luv it! Incessant fun to be had...) and a huge screen, but the Rigol seems the most solid of the pack, so... tough decisions to be made by us newbies here, folks!

author: ChildOfVision
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2013, 06:02:24 pm
content: Thanks bjoernx for additional info!The Siglent scope I'm interested is exactly the same as from your "Futu-Tech's" link, I'm just watching it "over" amazon.de (299€ with VAT and shipping + 3yrs warranty)!I contacted Futu-Tech (over amazon) and asked for info about HW and FW version of SDS1072CML they sell. Surprisingly, I got the answer in less than 24 hours! Here it is:"The HW and FW of SDS1072CML are 11-66-3.3 and 5.01.02.13.Vielen Danke!MfGFutu Tech GmbH"So, those should be the latest versions?Another question (except waveform refresh rate) is: Voltcraft's scope has "800x480" pixel diisplay, while Siglent has "only" 480x234 pix. for the same 7" size of display!? I suspect, Voltcraft just cheating (like some el-chipo UNI-T's) compressing 2x2 pixels into one pixel so it turns out the same thing!? But, maybe I'm wrong?If you are wonder what's inside Siglent, see this YT video (it is for 1102CML version, but 1072 should not differ much)!Teardown starts at 2:05!And, yes, Hantek/Volcraft has Linux on it, that's the best thing on this scope by my opinion!Quote from: bjoernxYes, me too. We will see...PS: I forgot, I heard somewhere (maybe on this forum) that Siglents have (in general) somewhat poorer Power Supply, but the rest is OK. Allegedly.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2013, 09:46:45 pm
content: Quote from: ChildOfVision on June 18, 2013, 06:02:24 pmas Tekway started with the production there was no such (chinese) DSO, i mean none with such high resolution.As a reaction UNI-T decied to "design" similar gear, but of course they did nothing except this 2x2 trick, that was of course crap.Today, as far i know, UNI-T fixed this crap in their latest models and implemented properly resolution vs pixel per datapoint.Anyway, regards the resolution. Siglent is using 480x234. For waveview area (rest is menu etc.) there are 8 DIV,each DIV is 25pix high, each pixel represent one LSB. There are of course 2.24 DIV reamining (as these DSO using10.24DIV for 8bit resolution), they are there to not allow waveform clipping on top and bottom side of waveform.Tekway (so as well Hantek/Voltcraft) is using 800x480. For wavevie area there are 8DIV, each DIV is 50pix high,eachtwovertical pixel represents one LSB. But this is not 2x1 nor 2x2, when in RUN mode the DPO-likeshading and persistency are using half LSB as well. Looking on DC line you will see therefore two vertical dots perone LSB, but when looking on "noisy data" you will see hald LSB as well.Hameg is using very similar technique, however they used nice trick to make the "two dot vertical" thiner,the top line is simply bit darker so human eye see it thiner as it is. I've requested this to be added on Tekway fw,but well, we will see if this can be implemented (as it need some extra resources).Agilent and Rigol (on DS2k) they using as well two pixel per LSB (however they using as well 1/2 LSB on theirnice intensity grading, so the waveform looks more detailed).On the other side Tektronix is using on DPO2k the 480x234 resolution, like Siglent.In principle there is no physical difference between 800x480 and 480x234, both display areas areusing the same physical space, so the resulting line is exact that thin/thick (depending on manufacturer,model type, sample rate, depth, DSO technology, etc) as on the other.So the only benefit of these 2 vertical pixels per LSB is the fact that they can be used for high res,grading/shading, persistency, etc.Quote from: ChildOfVision on June 18, 2013, 06:02:24 pmnope, Tekway is the bestthe others are only "clones" (it is not that Hantek is only producing them, they as well designed extras/addons,Tekway is only the IP owner on the DSO platform, so nevermind).

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2013, 10:03:50 pm
content: btw, i saw these comments that "Siglent loos like Rigol DS1000E".Well, that's not exact the truth, sure on first look you they very similar, but actually all cars are using 4 wheelsand most of them looks very similar.Siglent however changed things in that design, not only the LCD controller, hehe. They fixed the vertical drifton cold DSO (different opamps), tuned tv trigger, sure replaced FPGA by newer model but that not a real improvementas they "missed" to use big enough FPGA to have dedicated clock out to clock ADC, but yeah, savings are everywhere.There are as well models with no long memory populated, they really interessting. It seems that Siglent used on themwhat Tekway did - 4 (dual) ADCs with 125MHz clock instead of 5 (dual) ADC with 100MHz. There is nothing against thatsolution, and 5USD per device are lot of money.There is only one thing which i don't like on Rigol DS1000E, ATTEN, UNI-T, Siglent .. where is the shilding for PSU?Before DS1000E Rigol was producing other models with very similar models (DS1000CD), there was shielding on theleft PCB side, from power connector over to ADCs, so all the analog part was shielded. The worst solution ever is onUNI-T (and dont quote me on that if fixed in meantime), the distance between high voltage side and main PCB isalready a joke, shelding as well. On the other side Tekway/Hantek is using nice shielding for main pcb, but PSU is notshielded (anymore, hehe, in previous models there was tons of shielding inside), so not that good solution from EMIpoint of view as well.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2013, 11:28:23 pm
content: Quote from: tinhead on June 18, 2013, 09:46:45 pmI disagree. How about multiple traces? I'm battling with 4 traces on a 640x480 screen. And with a higher resolution the text can also be smaller so more space is left for the traces.

author: jebcom
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2013, 03:31:13 am
content: QuoteThis video is amusing. He spends a good portion of the time elaborating on what "storage" means in "Digital Storage Oscilloscope." Storage to USB Flash, Storage to PC, waveforms, bitmaps, etc., etc.I'm glad he cleared that up for me. I had the impression that "storage" referred to capturing a non-repetitive waveform on the screen so you could examine it after it was gone.Yeah, I feel old. But I don't really miss the old Tek storage tubes.

author: jebcom
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2013, 03:36:24 am
content: QuoteYes, and the potential of the Hantek MSO with up to 16 "logic analyzer" channels. (I think "digital channels" is a more accurate name.)But I saypotentialbecause I'm still waiting for Hantek to provide firmware in which the LA actually works.

author: smashIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2013, 10:21:00 am
content: Quote from: ChildOfVision on June 13, 2013, 06:29:24 amcomparing a low-price shop like amazon with a high-price one (conrad) is a bit unfairif you are from germany try a shop likebatronixif you are from austria you can buy one fromrekirsch(i got mine there)

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2013, 10:52:56 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 18, 2013, 11:28:23 pmoh well, no doubt, all other things are better visible on higher res display.But these two diplays here are physicaly having the same vertical active aea, one with 200pix waveform area using 25dots verticalper DIV and 1 dot per LSB, and the other one with 400pix waveform area using 50dots vertical per DIV and 2 dot per LSB.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2013, 10:57:04 am
content: Quote from: jebcom on June 19, 2013, 03:36:24 amyeah, they sucks right now. They removed the last 3 fw versions from website, not responding to any questionsabout the MSO firmware status (and i got 5 other emails from Hantek in last 2 weeks, with e.g. DSO fw or CPLD design),no matter how nice i ask.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 11:57:42 pm
content: BTW see, how the Siglent, LeCroy and BK Precision scopes are similar.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/equipment-running-windoze/msg211085/#msg211085

author: Deckert
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2013, 02:56:41 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on June 22, 2013, 11:57:42 pmAdd Atten and Xytron to that list. Siglent is the manufacturer - they all use Siglent baseboards on the inside. I recently opened up my Atten ADS1102CML to check if I could find a trigger output (I didn't) but the mainboard is clearly Siglent:The whole teardown album (14 photos) is here:https://plus.google.com/photos/115320820638968278588/albums/5887610364867320033?authkey=CIaa8InenK2gFgAll the caps are genuine Rubycon caps though!--deckert

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2013, 06:55:13 pm
content: Well, theAttenscope has a different front panel and not 4 channels. But yes, it is manufactured by Siglent.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2013, 06:58:30 pm
content: Note the abraded ADCs. Funny. But a nice scope anyway.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2013, 07:29:09 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on June 24, 2013, 06:58:30 pmI think it's funny how Rigol has been removing the branding from a lot of their chips. But it also makes me wonder if the Rigol branded ADCs are just standard Analog Devices brand chips that we see everywhereAt one place that I worked, our main product was made of from parts that catered to a market where people were very brand specific on things. Up until a certain point one of the major components was available through several third parties. Over the years one of our biggest competitors bought one of the suppliers that produced that part so we no longer could get it from them, and another supplier got out of the business. Which left us with one part source. So our company bought a european company that produced that major part we needed plus made the whole finished product but only made it for the european market. So now we had two choices of brand but our side only had 1 part and the other brand had about 4.So we entered into an agreement with them to buy their components but rebadge them all with our logos and sell under our brand name.So now we had Part A made by us under our name, Part B made by them and sold under their name and Part C and D made by them but sold with our logo.Another amusing thing was a component of our part was also made by the other company but they encased it in something with our logo stamped into it, but if you looked at the serial number, it had the name of one of their sub-divisions on it with their serial number.

author: Deckert
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2013, 11:28:53 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on June 24, 2013, 06:58:30 pmAgreed - they really went to town with removing the lettering from the ADC chips. Almost as if they scoured the surfaceandpainted over it again afterwards.But the scope does what it does well. Maybe one day I'll upgrade to one of the higher end (read: faster) scopes if required.--deckert

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2013, 02:06:10 pm
content: Well they already ran their ADCs at a higher rate than what they were designed for. Now they can do it without being caught.

author: WhiteWolf
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2013, 06:47:16 pm
content: Hi,well I know that it was some time since last someone posted in this thread but I think my question fits in to this thread.I been looking for a new oscilloscope for sometime. At school I used the HP Agilent 54622A alot and at my last job I used from time to time some Agilent DSO3xxx and a Hameg HMO3032. But those scopes are too expencive for freetime/hobby. For the 54622A one, is too old for me.I have been looking at the Hantek DSO5102B cause it can be hacked and the overshoot problem can be fixed with replacing few resistors at the input.Rigol 1000E -series feels like it's out of date. But the DS2000-series would be something but I don't feel like to spend about $1000 on a scope. I can spend up to $400.So I have found some Tektronix TDS3012B scopes for under $500 now and then. Are they better than the Hantek DSO5000B-series? I know that the Tektronix is making some really good scopes and there for I can put a $100 more on the price.So would it be wise of me to buy a Tektronix TDS3000-series than a Hantek DSO5000-series (not the P model)?

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2013, 09:27:57 pm
content: Tektronix TDS3000 might have no USB port. It has only 10kpoints memory per channel.This scope was introduced in 1999. Later series have an USB port.Well, it depends on what you need. The TDS3000 might still be great for analog circuitry analysis.

author: larry42
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2013, 10:22:05 pm
content: I don't see the point in buying any DSO with 10k pt of memory (like the Tek TDS3012B). All the scopes you've used, including the great old 54622A have *way* more memory.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2013, 01:50:15 am
content: 54622A is like an old Mercedes car...You know, that it is obsolete, but for some reason you like it and you find it pleasant to use. I used a similar scope at school. It has 4MB memory or so.It must have been expensive in 2002 or so. A nice CRT scope. I like the high contrast screen. I made a video...

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 11, 2013, 04:32:42 am
content: Quote from: larry42 on September 10, 2013, 10:22:05 pmIt's all trade-offs. The 54622A had a lousy 200 MS/s sampling rate which HP optimistically specced for 50 MHz single shot bandwidth. That was the trade-off at that time. HP chose long memory and lousy sampling rates, Tek chose lousy memory and decent sampling rates. Both suck based on specs for today's standards. Many modern sub-$500 alternatives will lack intensity-graded displays. An advantage of the Tek scopes from this era was that they used the acquisition memory for measurements, not the pixels on the screen as many modern scopes do. They also had a decent waveform update rate (in low memory mode) before Agilent made it a marketing issue. 10 kpts is low for today's standards, but how much memory does that Tek 465 analog scope that's still fine for many applications have? In my opinion 10 kpts was usable, since it gave you about 20 screens worth of data without interpolation.

author: WhiteWolf
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2013, 06:34:35 am
content: Wow okey so the Tektronix are that old.. Then I'll count those off from my list.It's seems like it's gonna be a hantek for meThanks for the info guys!

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2013, 06:54:07 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 25, 2013, 10:03:53 amMaybe, but it still doesn't make sense. Apparently, it didn't occur to them to ask about custom printing. (Hint: at a cent or two per chip, sometimes it is worth of letting others think that you have resources to do custom chips.)

author: WhiteWolf
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2013, 09:24:35 am
content: Thank you Teneyes for the tip about DS2072.I might be saving my salary another month and buy that one insteed for the Hantek DSO5102B.Well ~$300 (DSO5102B) against ~$850 (DS2072).. Well it's 3 times the money but a easy hack and it's also a 200MHz scopeD*mn it's hard to buy a oscilloscope...

author: casper.bang
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2013, 09:30:29 am
content: Rigol's 1052 is just not a candidate for me (noisy, small screen and no single shot), but I am surprised that the Owon comes out more popular than the Siglent. Considering there are significantly more complains about the Owons and Siglent is a relative trusted major OEM, why is this the case? Is it mainly because the Owon has 10 MSample wheras the Siglent only has 2MSample?(I thought of the DS2072 many times, but I really don't have the need and I really could use that $600-$700 difference on something else.)

author: Nermash
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2013, 11:00:46 am
content: For me the major factor in deciding to get Owon was the 800x600 screen and 10 Mpoints of memory, but 2 Mpoints would do just fine. Even now I would rather get Owon again than any other budget scope with 480x230 screens or less. Owon did have issue with ground noise, but latest batch should be fine. Regarding waveform capture rate they are all pathetic compared to current standards, so it sucks whether it is 25 or 100 or 200 wf/s...

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2013, 11:36:17 am
content: Quote from: casper.bang on September 11, 2013, 09:30:29 amOwon have 2x10M full speed samplerate memory. Siglent have half speed memory.It means it can do full 1GSa/s with 0.5ms/div horizontal speed and 10M sampling buffer, and wqith two channel in use 1ms/div 500MSa/s and both channels 10M. In time what it was launched, what same price class scope can do this?Owon have far better TFT.Owon have Lithium battery option.Owon have very low noise level in front end. (if use Rigol standards, very extremely low noise front end)Owon 100MHz model BW is clearly over 170MHz (typical) And BW flatness is very good.Owon trigger stability is very good.Owon ADC system is far better (ADC08D500 or clone in 100MHz model) and free of cheap multi ADC interleaved systems problems. (this same principle front end is now also in Rigol DS2000 and looks like also some others)(It is good to remember also time when Owon was SDS series was launched. Where was other 10+10M full speed memory in this price class with gorgeous high quality industrial grade TFT when most others use crap 5.6" 320x~240 display)Owon persistence have 8 step gradient.Owon FFT have 2048 points as many competitors in this class have 1024. Also it can clearly see in test results.Owon not windowed zoom have always highest samplerate. (many others have windowed zoom but zoom window use same samplerate as main window)Owon have full real time VGA out.Siglent TFT is 7" but resolution is 480x234 (Rigol DS1000E: 320x234) Owon display is more bright, better contrast, better wiev angle 8" 800x600)But then there is also cons - of course.I do not mean here that Owon is best or anything like this. But there is many explanations why it have been some kind of good competitors in its main time. And for some purposes, it can still be right choice. But so is many others - it depends...Here is (old) table about samplerates (note Hantek information is some amount obsolete):Also obsolete table about Siglent.Using 2ms/div Rigol DS1000E is barely max 5MHz*) oscilloscope and Owon is 125MHz*))(Nyquist limit)Today I have seen that Siglent building quality is good/very good in its price class. Also they have better UI with more features. (but still some bugs and stranges - it need look price and think good/bad with price). (they can buy also from Teledyne or example BK Precision)Finally it is really so that it depends exactly ans only what user need and what he think important and less important.Still - mostly, Peronally I use analog oscilloscoipe for working. If I like play just with oscilloscope itself I like play with digital scope. Exept if I need images.Then one comment for capture memory.Mostly I use scope for looking real time signal from screen and signal shape etc and many times signals are higher frequencies than "audio". If I use scope so that there is example 5ns/div speed and I'm looking real time signal from screen. There need well under 1k sampling memory. (in this case with 1GSa/s scope there need 100 sample point memory. Not 100k, not 1M, not 10M.)If scope setting is 2ns/div and if there is 2GSa/s speed, and I look just realtime screen, there is 80 samples in display area if it is 20div wide. Some times peoples forget this. Needs depends use.All peoples do not need long captures and not high samplerates with slow horizontal speeds.

author: casper.bang
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2013, 12:04:55 pm
content: That's a lot of data-points rf-loop, will take me some time to absorb and digest. It's pretty clear you favor the Owon and unlike me, you actually played with one. It's just that I can't help the subjective feeling I have, about the Siglent being the right one for me. Neithernorwere particulary impressed by the Owon (although arguably Dave redefined mid-level as entry-level confusing the matter a bit) and Dave actually have come in contact with the Siglent (albeit unfortunately not done a real review) in #310 which I have embedded below (jump into 4:30, the forum does not seem to support Youtube time offset linking).https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=w6MdhoV03e4#t=270The video just left me with the impression that for all practical purposes, it's an updated Rigol 1052, meaning a good entry-level scope with a decent build quality and sane UI/UX. If the Owon really has a lower noise-floor, a more precise non-interleaved ADC architecture and features to match the Siglent, then I can understand why the Owon came out on top in this poll - but superior data-sheets just can't change the murky feelings I have about the Owon at the moment.The 25MHz Siglent in #310 is obviously outdated and has been replaced by one with a larger screen and better frontend:

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2013, 02:02:16 pm
content: It was only some explanation why just Owon was previously one wanted scope. This time when Owon was launched, what was Siglent in this time?But Siglent have done good work and develop themselves (and products also of course) fast.Still there need long march and deep hard work for develop better working culture, services and products. But they really try. And they have good base for jump higher.Siglent is good scope in this price class and for many peoples it is good selection.I know well also example Rigol DS1000E series. Previously I have sold these and also Hantek.Also iSiglent UI and features are ok. Not perfect but - if look money and what get... not bad even if look with professional eyes for some kind of needs.There is some stranges in FW but what do not have? My Digibox have much more bad FW and my neighbourg car have even more bad FW, real nightmare.And as always - what is good, what is ok, what is not acceptable and what is not suitable - all depends just individual user needs and also other aspects.

author: Orange
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2013, 03:39:15 pm
content: Is there no automatic grammar checker on this forum?

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2013, 11:32:39 pm
content: Owon has good memory and ADC. But the acquisition speed is about 33 waveforms per second, which is bad. Owon also has no delayed sweep (zoom) mode. I would go for Siglent.

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2013, 11:59:47 pm
content: Quote from: Orange on September 11, 2013, 03:39:15 pmTo properly understand Finglish you need to be finnish and know english.Google chrome can point out spelling mistakes, but not grammar mistakes.

author: stormbr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2013, 12:05:49 am
content: I bought one rigol ds2072 on the Tequipment.The rigol ds1074z (4 channels) is a good choice too imho, or wait by the new releases of owon 4 channels.

author: xtv
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2013, 06:15:50 pm
content: Hi everyone,I'm not experienced with oscilloscopes, but I'm willing to get one (affordable) for some time.. After playing around with RF converters, I decided that I need a device that can measure frequencies up to 150MHz (up to 200MHz would be a nice plus).I get what Samples/sec means, makes perfect sense to me. But not Bandwidth.Now, my questions are:- Will the Owon 7102 give me a reasonably correct format of a 150MHz wave? (heard here that its bw can go up to 170MHz)- My first option before seeing this thread, was the Siglent SDS1152CML 150MHz 1GigSa/s 2Mpt memory. Any good/bad recomendations about it?My other option was the Hantek's 200MHz, specially for the "hackable" Linux firmware, but after seeing Dave Jones pointing such inaccurate measure in this video(which may, but doesn't seem to be caused by a bad firmware), I've discarded it. Btw, anyone knows if this have been fixed?Thanks a lot!

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2013, 09:23:05 pm
content: Dave's Hantek scope was a faulty model. Others should work better.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 15, 2013, 11:26:29 pm
content: Quote from: xtv on September 15, 2013, 06:15:50 pmNo. If the bandwidth goes up to 170 MHz, then this means that the amplitude is at most -3 dB (-30%) down at 170 MHz. So a 170 MHz 1 Vrms sine wave will appear as a 170 MHz 0.7 Vrms sine wave on the screen. This is for sinusoidal signals. You can tell that there is a signal at this frequency, and its amplitude within say +/- 50%, but that's it.Let's take the other extreme: a 170 MHz square wave. As shown inthis video by w2aew, square waves are composed of multiple sine waves. The frequencies of those sine waves for a 170 MHz square wave are 170 MHz, 510 MHz, 850 MHz, 1190 MHz, and so on. The first harmonic will be 30% down. Imagine how much the higher harmonics are attenuated? Only the first harmonic will be visible, so the 170 MHz square wave will look pretty much identical to the 170 MHz sine wave. I.e. you can't even tell if your signal is sinusoidal or square, never mind its amplitude, distortion or rise time.For a decent representation of the signal you might need say 5x more bandwidth than the fundamental frequency of the signal. A 1 *GHz scope would at least have shown the four harmonics, which allows you to tell that it's closer to a sine wave than to a square wave. You will probably need more bandwidth for square waves and pulses with fast edges, as you might encounter on digital signals. A 1 MHz pulse train from a micro or logic gate might still have a rise time of about 10 ns, requiring a 100 MHz scope to measure the rise time of this 1 MHz signal.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 15, 2013, 11:40:28 pm
content: Quote from: stormbr on September 12, 2013, 12:05:49 amI had a play with the new Rigol 1000Z scope, and it seems pretty good. Awesome bang-per-buck for a 4 channel scope. Incredible what you can get for the price these days.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2013, 12:57:44 am
content: It seems to me that those 1GSa/s ADCs are never gonna be cheap. You can have long memory, serial decoding, large high quality LCD, good waveform update rate... But you will not get 4×1GSa ADC.On the other hand, TDS3054C is bloody expensive (13000USD!!), because it has 4×5GSa/s ADC, that is quite impressive... It is the most expensive part of the scope... But it is obsolete anyway.Well, I am looking forward to the review. This DS1000Z scope might be very good for I2C debugging, because you do not need 1GSa/s there.And the signal generator is also impressive.I think that it is better than that generator in Agilent DSOX4000.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1104z-s/

author: olsenn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2013, 06:33:33 pm
content: QuoteThe cheapest DS1000Z-Series DSO seems to be not much cheaper than the cheapest DS2000-Series one, and with keygens available, the freely pimped out DS2000 completely kills the top-end DS1000Z. I aggree that those extra two channels are nice! However, it has a higher noise floor, fewer waveform updates/sec, a lower sampling rate (250MSa/s per channel isn't that great) and it seems to be a cheaper build quality.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2013, 01:06:03 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 15, 2013, 11:40:28 pmI really want a review of it, so I can see if the 1 vertical knob for 4 channels actually works out.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2013, 03:08:44 am
content: Why wouldn't it? It's not like it's the first 4-channel scope with shared vertical knobs. Some people dislike the idea of shared knobs, others don't care.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2013, 03:13:32 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on September 17, 2013, 01:06:03 amIt's works, just like it does on any scope.It's not as convenient of course, but it works.You don't have a choice on such a small unit anyway.

author: stormbr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2013, 06:02:31 am
content: Did you make a review of 1000z series ? I wanna see a comparison between 1000z and 2000 series.I wanna bought the ds1000z in the future.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2013, 03:39:30 pm
content: Well the shared knobs are good if you want asmall and compactscope. BTW LeCroy and Hameg also use shared knobs at most models... Well, I rather do not like it. But the DS1000Z-S series is a good value for money, I think.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2013, 02:53:28 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on September 18, 2013, 03:39:30 pmExactly 1000Z series is EXCELLENT value for money.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2013, 03:17:30 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on September 18, 2013, 03:39:30 pmShared knobs are pretty much mandatory for a small scope like this. It was even that way for the two channel DS1052E, now the 1000Z has 4 channels. Saperate knobs on that?, pretty much impossible.

author: casper.bang
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2013, 04:54:14 am
content: QuoteOf course, the DS1052E also did away with a "Single shot" button, which is painfully annoying. The DS1074B/DS1104B/DS1204B (why do people refer to these as 1000Z?) thankfully does have a dedicated "Single shot" button. Btw. I still think Rigol should come out with a 2-channel version, they would totally own the newbie hobby marked if they did.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2013, 05:16:47 am
content: Single shot set-up on the 1052E requires three button presses instead of one. While it may be a small inconvenience, it is hardly a deal breaker. Triggering will stay in that mode, even if the scope was turned off.

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2013, 05:52:09 am
content: Quote from: casper.bang on September 19, 2013, 04:54:14 amThe DS1000Z is a new series, which may not be available in many parts of the world yet. I own one:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1104z/

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2013, 01:15:50 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 19, 2013, 03:17:30 amBut they could made it better. I hate how it's done on my DS1052E. There is no good indication which channel is selected. Only the tiny channel symbol on the screen. They should use bi-color leds on the channel button and highlight the selected one with a different color.And i often accidentally switch a channel off instead of selecting it because it was already selected. There is already a dedicated off button. The channel buttons should not switch off, only turn on and select.

author: quantumvolt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 04:04:11 am
content: I unexpectedly got a tax refund, and before my wife and children get it all, I will buy a scope. I now use an external sound card from fleabay (USD 6.99) that I have modified with a DC level shifter and buffer/amplifier.I have to buy from fleabay or China factory (I live in Thailand - only one of the Chinese brands represented here - and expensive). I am doing analog and transient stuff down to milliseconds. Also serial, I2C, SPI, some waveforms and other repetitive things up to a few hundred kHz, and 16 MHz micro controller (but want something faster) .I only have a few wishes:3-400 USDBig displayUSB(GPIB)(VGA)These threads are too big to read through. I just want a scope. What do I buy?EDIT I saw forum member 'marmad's video and have decided for the Owon SDS7102. Has anyone bought from eBay aidetech_us USD 420? And is the 3 year warranty valid for international customers?Thanks.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 04:51:43 pm
content: A Rigol DS1074Z for US 585 if you can afford it. 4 channels for an AMAZING price. Otherwise, get a Siglent. Solid FW, decent build, god features, etc...

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 05:40:34 pm
content: Quote from: echen1024 on October 02, 2013, 04:51:43 pmWhich button does that? I wouldn't mind one or two of those

author: Teneyes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 11:21:41 pm
content: Quote from: Zbig on October 02, 2013, 05:40:34 pmIt is the Button above the100 Souls/Devil

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 01:25:39 am
content: Exactly. Enter single shot, trigger level 680mv, and turn the Ch. 1 time base all the way up. Now, feed a 100uHz, 679mv p-p square wave in. While rapidly pressing the "Math, Trig. Menu, and Run/Stop buttons , put one hand on your ear and jump on one foot at exactly 16/5 jumps/sec. Keep doing this for 1 minute and 24 seconds, and you should see a new menu on the scope, with various god features, such as instant circuit fix, and 10,000 volt out on the BNC probes.

author: uboot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2013, 09:14:08 pm
content: Hi folks,I looking for an entry-level DSO too and after reading through many threads on this excellent forum, I'm still considering the Uni-T UTD2102CM. There has not been updated infos / posts on that particular device for some time, so I'd like to add my findings and maybe your responses will help me with my decision:The claim of 150k wfrms/s is real. It's not a typo as stated by some people. The shop that once wrote 15k corrected it to 150k meanwhile:http://www.pinsonne-elektronik.de/pi1/pd125.htmlAlso, the manual available on that website not only states 150k and it also points out that this a 75x increase compared to other DSOs. (Well - it might still be a typo, maybe they're referencing a 20 wfrms/s scope, which would equate to 1500. On the other hand, 2k*75 equates to 150k, so I'm quite sure they are serious. There's also real typos in the manual like "Cutshort", "Vedio", etc.)Another detail that can be found in the manual: there's a hardware frequency counter. It also says, that this is equal to the trigger frequency for edge or pulse trigger mode.Maybe this is how wfrm update rate could be measured!Unfortunately, there's no explanation on "Fast/Normal Acquisition Mode". Seems that the firmware at the time of writing the manual didn't have this mode switch.Another finding: on page 81 is says "Waveform capturing rate >= 150k." In words: it's claimed to begreater than or equal to 150k. In other words:150k is claimed to be the minimum rateQuestion: 150k wfrms/s, that is processing 150k*6k*8bits=900 Megabytes per secondCould it be that they just implemented a fast trigger which is able to interrupt / restart acquisition? On the other hand: a fast FPGA with fast but expensive FIFO-buffers might do the trick.Other scopes on my list are Siglent SDS1072CML andhackable Hanteksand I am pretty undecided atm. Rigol is too pricy here in Germany.Twintex TSO1062- ever heard of that?Edit: just forgot to mention as this has been asked in some places - the UTD2102CM has ashielded PSU:https://www.mortoncontrols.com/blog/files/category-oscilloscopes.html

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2013, 09:35:22 pm
content: Quote from: uboot on December 03, 2013, 09:14:08 pmAlthough this might be true, I don't think it's actually been confirmed by any independent source - so I'm not sure where you're getting your info that it's "real" from. From Uni-T's manual and published specs?But a bigger question might be: if the Uni-T actually does 150k wfrm/s - how is it getting the extra captured information to the display? 120Hz is the upper end of refreshing an LCD, so DSOs with higher waveform capture rates generally use a Z-buffer and intensity-graded display in order to convey the extra waveforms captured between refreshes.The Unit-T has no intensity-graded display - so, for example, if it's capturing 150k waveforms per second and refreshing the LCD 100 times per second, what is happening to the 1500 waveforms it captures between refreshes? Are all 1500 waveforms being combined into a single, uniformly-colored waveform for display?

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2013, 10:50:51 pm
content: UNI-T is a weird brand... Well, they have never sent a scope to Dave, while others did. (Owon, Tekway, Tektronix, Rigol, Agilent)

author: uboot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2013, 07:05:57 am
content: Quote from: marmad on December 03, 2013, 09:35:22 pmJup - that's what I'm asking myself, too.Even if it manages to _trigger_ with 150k wps and fill the 6k buffer at that rate, in order to actually _notice_ what has been captured, it has to be visualized.The only way to achieve this is persistent display mode.But I really doubt that this works with 150k wps.For this to work, you have to decide if you want to apply persistence only to the visible-on-screen-portion of the 6k sample buffer or to the whole 6k buffer.Then you have to transfer the samples to another buffer at high speed (sort of a frame buffer, let's call it persistence buffer or DPO buffer). This buffer is bigger than the source because it has to store more than a single pixel position per time step: You can either pack this info into 256bits=32Bytes per time step or you can store a certain number of samples (8bits=1 Byte each) per time step (this allows to delete old samples / make them fade out, but how many samples to store?).Applying persistence to the whole 6K sample buffer is very demanding, so assuming it is applied only to the visible area, which shows at most - say 512 timesteps , it may be possible to achieve 150k wps.Now the persistence buffer has to be transferred to the screen. The rate at which this is achieve does not matter.EDIT: simple math: 1GSa/s divided by 6k buffer size equals ... guess what??? O0 With that in mind, their claim of >=150k waveforms makes sense....But still I question that they manage to visualize it properly...So, Hydrawerk is right: They are weird for not sending Dave a scope because he would definitely uncover the true performance of it....EDIT2: I'm getting distracted from Siglent/Atten/Twintex due to the trigger issues reported for the LeCroy WaveAce which is said have same internals (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/more-waveace224-issues!/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/dso-triggering-issues/) It looks like sooner or later I well end up with a Hantex....