Budget Shutterless Thermal Camera - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: JasonLiu
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 25, 2021, 03:56:25 am
content: Hi all,I owned a seek compact pro before it was great but just the shutter is quite bothering. I want to upgrade it with something that is close to it but shutterless. My budget is around $2000. Do you have any recommandation? There seem not much options other than the therm-app. While in Canada, I can only find the therm-app th with 19mm lens, which has only 7hz refresh rate.Thanks.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2021, 06:51:12 pm
content: The shutter, at least in some form, is required for temperature measurement unless your sensor is cooled, which would likely be well beyond your budget. You can get something like a BST core with a chopper wheel instead of the more common shutter for the same effect but without the delay, and you can get cameras with faster shutters or adjustable shutter controls (decrease frequency, change conditions when it happens, reduce number of frames it's closed for, etc.)I guess the question then becomes what are you actually looking for? There are lots of good cameras under $2000, but with some subsets of features, it's going to be quite difficult to find one without a shutter at that budget.

author: JasonLiu
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 25, 2021, 08:08:59 pm
content: Quote from: DaJMasta on March 25, 2021, 06:51:12 pmHi DaJMasta,Thank you for your reply and you are right. I can't find much product that is shutterless within this price bucket.Some information I found for the cooled vs uncooled detector:https://www.flir.ca/discover/rd-science/cooled-or-uncooled/I do find an article that they claimed there is a type of uncooled sensor and uses algorithm to achieve shutterles:https://www.engineerlive.com/content/thermal-imaging-camera-shutterless-technologyBut I think camera with that technology is hard to find in Canada as well.Back to your question, I want to have a thermal camera that has less of the frame freeze while during video capture while maintaining a fair resolution.I am very interested in the one you mention with copper wheel shutter. Could you give me an example product with that shutter?Best regards,Jason

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2021, 08:52:34 pm
content: Search around the forum for BST cores, there are a number of discussions and a teardown:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/argus-3-(bst)-teardown-and-repairs/Not copper wheel, chopper wheel. A device that when spinning physically blocks a portion of the sensor, but as a continuous short term block that isn't noticeable (or is automatically corrected) on the video output instead of a short break in image from a standard shutter.I don't know of an uncooled camera that uses a shutterless correction algorithm and can measure temperature. If you are interested in radiometric measurement you probably just need to deal with a shutter. If you just want thermal video, maybe there are some options that give acceptable video quality without a shutter. I know the Boson core is sold in shutterless configurations, for example, but I haven't actually seen a shutterless module integrated with a lens - I don't think people commonly opt for them, though maybe it's what you can find in a monocular or similar.

author: svgurus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 02:51:08 pm
content: Quote from: JasonLiu on March 25, 2021, 03:56:25 amSeek is reeel junk)) it clicks every 2-5 seconds and still has noisy picture. and you cant calibrate it manually, only with built-in shutterTherm-app th is usually overpriced but if you find it priced less than 1000$ its ok. you can find 7-50mm lenses for it at very good price nowThere is also thermal expert q1 (plus), it is shutterless but 9hz(check yourself, maybe its 25 for your country) and a bit noisy, but you can use it with pc and post-process the shots(afaik) you can order 6,8-19mm lenses for itand there is 25hz for everyone hti 301 or infiray xtherm t3s, it has shutter but clicks less frequently and has less noisy picture. you can buy it with 6,8 or 13mm lens, right now it has 8% discount on aliexpressso you should decide whats your preferences - 25-30hz, lenses, shutter, etcI own all 4 aforementioned models: therm app, Q1, hti301, seek compact probst cores are antiques from 2000s, check out their black shadows from moving objects on youtube

author: fest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 07:24:46 pm
content: Shutterless operation doesn't necessarily mean that detector has to be cooled. It is possible to calibrate detector's non-uniformities during manufacturing of the camera/core, but it's much, much more complex than using a shutter, requires more processing steps per each pixel and makes the manufacturing longer.EDIT: I now realised that you meant temperature measurement, as opposed to just imaging. That might be the case, although I have the intention of trying it anyway.

author: JasonLiu
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 11:07:50 pm
content: Quote from: DaJMasta on March 25, 2021, 08:52:34 pmThank you for your reply and the valuable information.I'm more of taking videos than taking accurate measurements. As you said, a monocular maybe the best suite for me.Temperature reading would be a plus for me but not mandatory. I will look into the chopper wheel one as well.

author: JasonLiu
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 11:37:00 pm
content: Quote from: svgurus on March 26, 2021, 02:51:08 pmI wouldn't call Seek is a junk but a toy as the price is low. In fact, I believe it is the best entry point for a beginner/hobbyist with its price/resolution ratio. Considerably wide range of accurate temperature reading. The Flir one is even wrose than the Seek.But I do agree most of your points, Seek really is a cheap made product. The sensor is cheap and noisy. Dark corner/edges probably due to the cheap lens and poor thermal isolation of the housing.I did consider the HTI 301 as an upgrade over seek. For lots of the videos on YouTube, it is rare to see the calibration (some said once in a minute). Image looks a lot better than seek.However, it doesn't support IOS which means I have to spend a couple hundreds more for a good Android phone to use it (neither the therm-app). Therefore, I haven't made a decision yet.My application is mostly taking videos without the needs of reading temperature. So shutterless would be the best for me while maintaining 15+ hz with resolution around 320x240.Monocular might be a better choice for me in this case I think.

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 12:23:37 am
content: Quote from: svgurus on March 26, 2021, 02:51:08 pmBlack haloes around hot objects, due to the diffuse / clear chopper wheel material. Change to a solid/clear chopper and they go away.Bog standard BST image attached, using a 15mm f/1 lens so 50° FoV.Simple grab from video, not to shabby for an antique ........Bill

author: svgurus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 01:13:11 am
content: QuoteI'm really disappointed in seek because they did not upgrade their cameras during 4(?) years, made disappointing seek shot pro(had one, sold after 1 month) and went making crowd control cams, forgetting about consumer products. And their noise is legendary, looks like they reside near a junk yard with flir bosons that failed QC.Well, if you stick to ios you can only get good picture from monoculars with wifi/bluetooth and buiilt-in recorder. I bought used samsumg galaxy s for less than 150$, works fine, battery is enough for 1-4 hours of shooting. The thing that isnt said in most reviews - hti301(my model is 2020 i guess) is wobbling in usb socket and loses connection frequently, q1 and therm-app dont. I was told that xtherm t3s sits tight too, by summer i will see myself.About monoculars, i have Pulsar xp50, in my country you can find it used for about 2000-2500$ and the repairs service is best possible, i was told numerous times. Looks like these w*ckos missed their chance to recruit me as an baby-ambassador so i can tell you some great and sad truths here if you see them cheap and consider buying)) The sharpness is outstanding, the noise is visible, dead pixels too, not similar to therm-app on same ulis generation. Removeable battery is good, enough uncovered info for now) Xp and xp2 are surely great in sharpness, xq 1 and 2 are a bit softer because pics and videos are made with screen resolution which is 640*480 or 1024*768, see their specs. And you can change lenses on them, quite easily but sometimes expensively. i got my 28 1,2 for 280$ but they are more expensive abroad. 12m axions are junk, axion xq38 is more pocketable but is slightly inferior to helion xq'sOther good looking(i mean pictures) and quite cheap monoculars are made by Infiray - but there are complexities there too. The only worthy series are xeye 3 and 6, cheaper ones are junk, except DL13, its nice and pocketable and even works with thermviewer but lens is 13mm only and you will have kinda tough time adapting another(though Q1 lenses might fit, their thread is smaller but might have smaller flange distance) Didn't see any info about changing lenses on xeyes at all, which is strange. 1st series of xeye are per-pixel sharp and have far less noise than pulsar, but you have absolute 0 control of picture - in pulsar you can change and even modify scene modes a bit, in thermviewer supported models (thermapp, t3s/301, DL13) you can fix and move 1 temperature threshold, with q1 on pc - both. Second versions of xeye are mostly the same but have 12m sensor and different image engine, in this year it got different again with new firmwareand most funnily, both 3-2 and 6-2 have resolution output of 768*576 pixels, first generation was per-pixel 384*288 or 640*512. I played with xeye 6-2 pro and there is Hungarian hunter blog website which has review for almost every iray monocular, its readable with google translate) Both pulsar and xeye have manual calibration without clicking shutter.Since you have Canadian flag, you can consider Flir too, but scouts have only analog output and no built-in recorder, love clicking and don't have manual calibration. Scions are a thing i never saw in person, specs are kinda fine but they are made on bosons, if they are commercial grade like scout 3's tau2's(and maybe earlier scouts too, still investigating), you will not only get less sensivity and more noise but also more dead pixels and other unpleasant stuff, see boson engineering datasheet

author: JasonLiu
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 11:50:57 pm
content: Quote from: svgurus on March 27, 2021, 01:13:11 amI never used the seek shot pro but I think it uses the same sensor as the seek compact pro. I had a video about my seek with my iPhone6s plus.It didn't look that bad to me given the fact I bought it as open box for $400 ish CAD. Just I can't bear with the shutter.Black & white mode will look even better than what my video shows.I really appreciate your information regarding monoculars.I think the eye3 should be the best option for me within my budget. I looked at its spec and there is a video recording feature.The flir brand is just not on my list. It's professional, but a bit overpriced IMO.Are your pictures from the same machine? What is the model?You mentioned "both 3-2 and 6-2 have resolution output of 768*576 pixels", I guess there are still diferences between the image right? I would imagine the eye3 image is interpolated to 768*576.Thank you again for your information and opinions.

author: svgurus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 08:59:25 am
content: QuoteShot pro uses the same sensor. Your video has a lot of thermal contrast so it seems less noisy. IMO Xeye e3 ver 1 plus suits you best, some say it has a version with 19mm lens but i mostly saw 25. 19 might be without focus adjustments, better avoid it. If 25mm is too narrow, get dl13, it accepts cr123 accumulators but i need to ask what exactly. Photos are mine, models are in file names, lenses on helion i dont remember, maybe 28 maybe 50 it doesnt have exif. ver2 3 and 6 both interpolate to 768*576 and afaik there is no way to disable it, didnt see pal/ntsc switch in menu. interpolated images are bad, need to test in properly but maybe thermviewer 2x upscaling of 384 sensor gets similar results to 640 upscaled to 768Here is that blog:https://www.vadasz-blog.hu/tag/infiray/if you find other blogs with a lot of photos instead of regular youtube videos and mumbling-bumbling, post them here) and if you find anything on changing lenses on xeye series send me too, im really curious but now im looking for another info

author: JasonLiu
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 10:31:55 pm
content: Quote from: svgurus on March 28, 2021, 08:59:25 amI would like to see there is a raw image/video. In fact one of the reason that I want to switch is seek cannot export raw footages.For sure I will post here if I find anything interesting. Will also post reviews for my monocular in the near future as well. Thank you so much for all the info!

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2023, 10:17:36 pm
content: I also came to this page after googling, since have similar need.So what if we add cooling to existing module and remove shutter?I tried to unplug the shutter control wires on my FeelElec FR01C (120x90 pixels), but once it issues command to shutter and sees no response from it, image freezes and won't be updated.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 12:15:22 am
content: Are you sure the image stops updating, or is your scene just fairly static? Shutters generally do not have a sensor involved, so unless it's deciding the scene is too nonuniform and erroring out, I wouldn't expect it to know whether or not the shutter did anything when it told it to. Usually a camera with a bad shutter will just store the current scene as the calibration frame and you get strange smearing effects when you move things around in frame.Worth checking to see the mechanism for the shutter is free, though, they are typically a solenoid with a lever, more or less, so it's likely to be a fairly simple mechanical failure if it stops working. If not, you can check continuity over the solenoid coil and verify the drive transistor is good.