Arrow just threw personal orders under the bus. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 10:43:10 pm
content: Just tried to order my BOM from Arrow and found myself stuck because the checkout form demands a VAT ID. Never had that before when ordering from them.Private persons in the EU do not have a VAT ID. Hell, in Germany, even small business with a revenue of <€20.000 are exempt from getting a VAT ID.Arrow support had this to say:"Due to recent directives on VAT for EU countries, customers are now required to provide VAT ID for ALL orders shipping to EU countries. At check out, customers are not able to proceed until a valid VAT ID is provided, and the OPT OUT option will no longer be available."Well, that basically throws orders for personal use under the bus. "Borrowing" a VAT number is an extremely bad idea, so that's not an option.Way to go arrow. Taking my business elsewhere I guess? Could order it through my employer, but that's a big hassle for both them and me.

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 11:07:06 pm
content: Just use my vat id. Here U1234567890.They aren't bothered at all and just following regulator's laws & demands, that's all. Sure their scrutiny team for that sort of stuff is <1 person lolOrder should get out regardless. Try!Unless of course Arrow's mission rebranded and given a official taxation authority status, internet & corporate fraud police and/or can legally subpoena retail customers then...But I highly doubt that.Crazy times we live in...

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 11:24:34 pm
content: Quote from: Mecanix on November 15, 2021, 11:07:06 pmNope, they seem to be validating the numbers. See:https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/vatResponse.html

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 11:40:04 pm
content: The validation url you passed is the EU comm, not Arrow's. Where do you get the sentiment that they validate this on the Arrow checkout? Is this the site they forwarded you too?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 11:48:59 pm
content: seems they didnt get the memo that the uk is no longer in the eu either as there applying the rules to uk customers even though the threshold for vat registration is here £85k

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 12:08:11 pm
content: Using an invalid or "borrowed" VAT id is certainly tax fraud, as they will probably ship tax free (intra EU). One could argue it's up to them to check the validity before shipping (that's a legal requirement in Germany e.g.), but different countries don't require these checks before shipping.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 12:16:56 pm
content: I guess they don't want to bother with collecting EU VAT from private customers (which is also different for each country) since it's only a tiny part of their total sales. Since July they cannot simply let private customers to pay the tax themselves at the border. And their DDP process is not geared to deal with private customers either. You could use some US reshipper though.

author: johnkenyon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 12:43:45 pm
content: Can't you request an "EORI number" from your local tax authority and use that?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 01:13:07 pm
content: Quote from: johnkenyon on November 16, 2021, 12:43:45 pmIt's not a VAT number, and has a different purpose.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 06:47:51 pm
content: Thanks for pointing this out with Arrow, although it's probably going to be the same with many others sooner or later.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 10:55:58 pm
content: I wonder how much business they will lose from being annoying like that. There is plenty of small scale corporate exploratory research work that is 'available' through a manager but is totally disregarded if there are acquisition difficulties because its commonly viewed to be a burden/time sink on a employee. They will get you stuff and support you, so long they don't need to claw up the company supply chain to try to get business communications resources (they don't want to deal with any more then their minimum workload but nothing stops a 'reasonable use' credit card from being used without any ramifications or secrecyIts not a secret project, its just a isolated project so people do not complain about being involved with potentially frivolous work.. you know for those acquisitions people, the props come from managing orders for direct company profit, i.e. being a hero for managing big purchases for big production runs that have multi million dollar quarterly revenues... they don't care for supporting R&D as much. If its seen as feasible and you are competent and confident, you can get the 'job', so long nothing but a credit card and a R&D group is involved... but in this situation if you start needing "corporate numbers", certifications and verification you will start hearing the words 'too hard' and you won't be doing anything new. In business there are people that are basically hyper focused on direct revenue and trying to involve them in other stuff is futile.And that's like the big customers too, they usually have complex beurocracies in play. Then when you factor in small businesses as the post bellow this one does the effect is more drastic.So the net effect is that you will have companies that are basically too annoyed to investigate certain things that would otherwise be investigated with near certainty, plus everything else said in this thread. Its no secret that MANY good opportunities(contracts) are not taken up because of paperwork requirements (i.e. goverment work). All those paperworks have tons of different numbers and ID's that make people insane.I think arrow got "Fat" off of big orders made by companies hording resources to secure their production lines (i.e. use all available resources to push bbbbiggggg orders only. That won't last forever.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 10:56:55 pm
content: Quote from: Mecanix on November 15, 2021, 11:40:04 pmI should have been more verbose about that. What I was trying to convey is that they do not merely check the VAT ID format as you suggested in your first answer, but actually check the number online with an API to the EU VAT inquiry system. The link I provided should merely demonstrate that checking the number for validity is dead simple and taps into the very same API.The truth is probably in userwrapersanswer: They don't want to deal with the VAT hassle, their DDP process merely handles the tariffs, not VAT.This is a bad decision an Arrows part. We have VAT exemption rules for small businesses in many European companies. They are now cut off from Arrow.Personally, I find it very regrettable. Arrow was one of the few - if not the only - company that offered free shipping and had nearly no MOQ with few exceptions like mechanical parts. They only charged shipping for parts that shipped from their Japanese warehouse. And they were considerately cheaper compared to the big three. Simple bird food SMT parts are often three times more expensive.My €28 BOM at Arrow costs €51 at Mouser and then they slap €20 shipping fee on it. Yeah, thanks.Outside of my day job as an EE, I make small runs of boards for educational purposes for the local school. They have workgroups for kids that want to learn about electronics. Budgets are small, so this will kill that off or limit the possibilities to meddling with Arduinos.Before anyone asks: The possibility to order this through the school is next to impossible due to red tape.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 11:16:57 pm
content: and of course it will take how many years for the education/inspiration related damage to show up when there is a shortage of hardware guys? I think its a serious concern because of how technologically advanced and dependent our society is becoming... you need people that know what they are doing to keep solving problems in an enlightened way. I think of rupe goldberg + ductape solutions rather then elegant hardware when I imagine the world of the future with a shortage uninspired and uneducated youth. (logically complex to use and energy inefficient comes to mind, toilet with a 600W motherboard).

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 02:43:03 am
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on November 16, 2021, 10:56:55 pmI share the same feeling. Neither saw that coming; that 'bureaucrat-wannabe & Internal Revenue gaga' thingy I mean. Go figure...For disclosure I've never ordered from Arrow, and certainly will refrain from doing so knowing this (I normally procure from genuine businesses, and not from lil Gov't Sub-Dept).Thanks for letting us know and for the clarification RE "API". Understood.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 06:56:32 am
content: Maybe it's more about avoiding consumer protection laws than anything else. If you have a VAT ID you're a business. Of course not every business will have one, but they might be willing to forego some portion of their sales to not get burdened with B2C laws. (Such as maximum shipping delays, warranties, right to return, etc.)

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 07:55:45 am
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on November 16, 2021, 10:56:55 pmAbout a decade ago, I asked my tax advisor to request a VAT number after the first year of income. Even back then I had read that having one assured people you are a legitimate small business. Or to misquote Oscar Wilde: Having three tax numbers inspires confidence, even in tradesmen.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 08:07:49 am
content: If you operate as a business, get a VAT number.VAT exemption ("Kleinunternehmerregelung") is a huge trap anyways. Unless your customers are 100% consumers it's not worth it and you end up paying too much VAT.