Fake Sn42Bi58 Bismuth low temperature solder wire / Mechanic HBD-366 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2020, 08:43:06 pm
content: Looking for some Bismuth solder wire for a very delicate repair, i ordered some "Mechanic HBD-266" solder which was advertized as a Sn42Bi58 alloy. The images in the original FleaBay shop still had label with the alloy printed on it, the one i got delivered is missing this and it just says "Lead-free". Which is exactly what it is, it melts at around 240°C. Old school SnPb will start melting 20° below that.Unfortunately this also was the only bismuth solder wire i could find in europe, so if anyone has a recommendation it is very welcome.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2020, 10:38:05 pm
content: Weird they took off the Sn/Bi label on the package. Get a refund from ebay.IMO if you are buying something like this, at the very least I'd get from aliexpress/banggood and from a seller with a large number of reviews. Ebay is too unreliable.https://www.banggood.com/MECHANIC-HBD366-0_30_40_50_6mm-40g-Solder-Wire-Roll-Low-Temperature-Lead-Free-Soldering-Tin-Wire-p-1369193.html

author: robca
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 01:02:40 am
content: Just a quick note on Banggood: reviews on Banggood have been useless for the last 2-3 years or so. You could rely on Banggood's reviews in the past, since they published all reviews. These days only 4 and 5 star reviews are published (and very few 4 stars, too, mostly only 5). To the point that many people write 4 or 5 star reviews that are very critical, just to get over the filter. And most people want to post reviews to get points, so they write 4 or 5 stars reviews to get thru the filtersTry finding a product on Banggood with a rating lower than 4.5 stars, it's impossibleI still buy from Banggood, I just either read every review to see if there's nay camouflaged negative one, or simply disregard them completely. I recently received some horrible and useless face masks, and the ratings are 808 5 stars, 101 4 stars, 8 3 stars. No 2 or 1 star. I didn't even bother writing a review, because every single low star review I wrote in the past couple of years was not published

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 05:59:31 am
content: You can check also ebay listings from Russia, "Rose alloy" quite popular there, but often sold as metal drops (no flux inside, unfortunately).

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 07:30:03 am
content: It's a lottery getting anything like this from ebay/aliexpress/banggood etcI would always go to a proper supplier:https://www.mouser.co.uk/Tools-Supplies/Soldering/Solder/_/N-b11qq?P=1ynqsmx

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 06:33:55 pm
content: Yes, but that is solder paste. As of today, there are no suppliers of Bismuth solder wire with a flux core. One company (Felder) has announced it, but when i asked for a quote, they admitted that they are not quite finished yet.Without flux, you can get it from reputable companies like Stannol, though there is a minimum order quantity for it.https://www.stannol.de/produkte/loetdraehte.html?tx_produktselektor_filter%5Baa_kat%5D=MASSIVDRAHT&tx_produktselektor_filter%5Baa_prod%5D=MASSIV%20NSL&tx_produktselektor_filter%5Baction%5D=show&tx_produktselektor_filter%5Bcontroller%5D=Product&cHash=59a4018a3156e76744284d3dc90d0edf

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 11:55:43 am
content: What's the MOQ? Maybe you could put together a group buy?

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 05:42:48 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on June 27, 2020, 11:55:43 amThey state a MOQ of 10kg...

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 09:33:44 am
content: At what $/kg?

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 12:31:34 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on June 28, 2020, 09:33:44 amNo idea, that info is from the datasheet.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 01:01:32 pm
content: I'll get a quote, maybe we can pool an order.Edit: They have referred me to a distributor, but also told me that MOQ is just one spool. Waiting for prices again.

author: Flunze
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 04:31:32 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on June 26, 2020, 07:30:03 amWell true. But mouser is very very expensive in comparision. For prototyping I mostly rely on Aliexpress and Ebay. Ebay only with paypal because of protection. I never buy from sellers, who do not offer Paypal. To much risk to not get your refund. And on Aliexpress I hat a 50% refund for MOSFETs that where not ESD packed. (Some crazy ibiots pack 10.000uF 450V capacitors in ESD foil.).Most of the Mosfets worked fine. But I do not trust them to be reliable now. What, if at Mains Voltage the MOSFET shorts suddenly because the junction broke down due to ESD and resulting electro (?) migration? Not that funny imho.One Thing I never trust on Aliexpress, Ebay and so on is electrolytic capacitors and lithium ion batteries. I bought some cheap 2.5Ah batteries though. The weight in the Listing was similar to industrial grade high current cells. It was not the cheapest. I trusted it and they actually work properly. And they actually weight as much as advertised. Non of those fake filled explosion hazards filled with fake stuff like cement or so.I mean, 10.000mAh 18650 (and for <2 bucks of course).That is just obvious...So I recommend:*Hobby: Everything from Aliexpress. Only special stuff (ultra high quality components) from Digikey, Mouser or Distrelec.*Prototyping and Hobby with decent quality in mind: Aliexpress for all passives except edge case capacitors (like 0805 25V 100uF) and medium to high end active components. These would be fakes likely.*Production: Maybe resistors and some 0805 caps for low current/frequency. Maybe something like BC847C. But everything else from reputable sources. Chinese suppliers are a very high risk for production instabilities. We notice this a LOT now due to covid. (IT industry)

author: Ober EE
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 05:28:50 am
content: Just wanted to mention, Mouser also has wire (with no clean flux) that was not in that earlier search.https://www.mouser.com/c/tools-supplies/soldering/solder/?alloy=Sn42%2FBi57%2FAg1&instock=yDid anyone find out the price on that spool?Also got some Mechanic 366 thinking it was Bismuth, no luck either. Aliexpress. Still looking for a more reasonable cost supply than mouser.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 06:10:19 am
content: Quote from: Flunze on July 01, 2020, 04:31:32 pmThey worked but you could just buy much cheaper MOSFETs with inferior specs at Mouser and they would perform about the same as those from Aliexpress. As they are almost never genuine in those 10pcs for $2 offers, not even clones with similar specs, just vastly inferior parts. If you want to buy any transistors at Aliexpress, just go to LCSC and use parametric search to find cheapest Chinese branded stuff with matching spec. If you want to buy just a few so shipping cost becomes prohibitive, then search on Aliexpress for part numbers you found on LCSC. This way most likely you will receive what you actually ordered. The only things Aliexpress is good at when buying parts is cheap shipping, which can be a deciding factor when you need just a few parts, and that often you can find parts not sold by western distros.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 11:20:11 am
content: What reason for the Bismuth?We use only 63/37 Sn/Pb eutectic solder.Lowest melting point for tin/ lead solderRohs lead free not needed for repairsJon

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 04:42:26 pm
content: Quote from: jonpaul on October 29, 2022, 11:20:11 amI have the same question. I use Kester brand Sn/Pb/Ag solder with 2 to 4% silver for low temperature soldering. It has a lower melding point than 63/37.Hmm. Not as much as what I thought. Alloy Temperature Chart | Kesterhttps://www.kester.com/knowledge-base/alloy-temperature-chartSn42Bi57Ag1 might be a good choice if you want lead free.PS. Digikey has it, depending on what form that you want <https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/sra-soldering-products/SSLTNC-T5-35G/10709803>

author: Ober EE
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 01:00:55 am
content: Bismuth is for a seriously low melting point (~128c/262f) and to stay wet longer. So you can do things like add a little of it to each solder joint on something with multiple solder connections like a HDMI port and then once you have bismuth on all of the joints you can reheat them and by the time you get to the last one the first one will still be liquid and you can just remove the connector. This helps a lot when you have multiple plastic things nearby the spot you want to remove a chip or connector and you really cant use hot air without melting the connector or the stuff nearby. Or possibly you have a chip that is sensitive to heat, then you can use the bismuth to lower the temp required to work it so you do not have to apply nearly as much heat to remove it.Ever have a solder joint that your iron just could not take out? This is when you flood it with flux and try to get that bismuth melted on top and just let it soak a bit, give it a chance to mix with the other solder as it seems to mix and help make the rest of the solder soft in just a couple seconds. If it only got some of it soft then you can try adding a little more or just removing it and trying again as you will get some more of the difficult solder out each time as long as you can melt what is there. Sometimes Mil Spec lead free stuff on a huge ground plane can be nearly impossible to remove without torching the hell out of the board, this is how you can deal with that a little easier. If you deal with lots of small parts with multiple connections that take lots of heat to remove, the bismuth will make it like butter. It is a dream material for removal of difficult parts.I would never leave the bismuth as a solder joint unless I could not find a way to work the repair otherwise, I am not sure if it makes a good connection for long but the purpose is for easier removal of things. Once you have the item removed, you clean up all the bismuth solder and replace the part with normal 63/37 or whatever else you prefer to use.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 06:28:01 am
content: We use Metcal SmartHeat soldering irons, excellent for large connection, ground planes, delicate parts.63/37 Sn/Pb gives a superior joint and minium plastic temp range.Additional solder metals like Ag, Bi, give a lowering of joint quality,Jon

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 06:59:30 am
content: QuoteLead-Free melts at 217c -ish. Lead based melts at 180c-ish (60/40) or 183c (63/37, euctetic) - maybe calibrate your soldering iron/station if you feel you need to set the temperature to 240c to melt the solder.There's low temperature in Europe ... Farnell has it, for example :52 In 48 Sn (118c melting temperature) :https://uk.farnell.com/chip-quik/smdin52sn48/solder-wire-118-deg-c-0-8mm/dp/3549326wikipedia says :In52Sn48 melting=118c toxic=No eutectic=YesIn52. Suitable for the cases where low-temperature soldering is needed. Can be used for glass sealing. Sharp melting point. Good wettability of glass, quartz, and many ceramics. Good low-temperature malleability, can compensate for different thermal expansion coefficients of joined materials.42 Sn 57 Bi 1 Ag (138c melting temperature) :https://uk.farnell.com/chip-quik/smdswltlfp32/solder-wire-138-deg-c-0-76mm/dp/3549332The Bismuth ones are also available as paste and a bit cheaper) :farnell linkedit : Sigh ... thanks for reviving thread from 2020

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 07:31:43 am
content: I have a bismuth alloy melting at (supposedly) 138°C, it's very soft and easy to rip apart, by no means I would solder parts with it.I only use it to remove large parts without stressing things out.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 07:39:49 am
content: Quote from: mariush on October 30, 2022, 06:59:30 amIf you set soldering iron to the melting temperature, it will not melt the solder wire. It's tip temperature, not how hot is solder on the end of older wire. Solder wire itself acts as a heatsink, so it will not be as hot as the tip which it is barely touching. You can only argue that solder which was already applied to the tip should melt at such temperature. Nor exact displayed temperature is that important. You set temperature that works the best for particular kind of job and tip used, but is not too hot to instantly burn the flux or damage PCB. What you should care about is solder joint temperature, not exact tip temperature. Setting too low temperature and then soldering each joint for 5 seconds is poor decision.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 09:57:04 am
content: Quote from: Ober EE on October 30, 2022, 01:00:55 amI don't see what "mil spec" has got to do with anything. Mil spec doesn't mean superior, it's just a specification.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 10:15:39 am
content: Quote from: mc172 on October 30, 2022, 09:57:04 amIs this even about actual Mil spec? Seems he talks about PC motherboards or graphics cards with so called "Mil spec" in the marketing (PCB with many layers of copper = hard to solder due to heat sinking away).

author: branadic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 10:25:24 am
content: Give Felder, Stannol or Balverzinn a call and ask them for some small amount, if they currently have it in stock. They are always helpful and can suggest the right solder for a given application.It seems like these days people forgot how to use the phone and to call people in the vicinity, but instead order junk off of Bangood, Aliexpress or ebay and are disappointed afterwards about the crap that has been delivered-branadic-

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 10:55:12 am
content: Quote from: wraper on October 30, 2022, 10:15:39 amYou could spend eternity inferring things from other peoples' posts. Maybe they mean millimetre-thick ground plane, given that the first 3 letters of millimetre are "mil". How about milled boards? Or boards designed for a windmill? Surely windmills have their own set of specifications for the PCBs.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 11:00:38 am
content: Quote from: mc172 on October 30, 2022, 10:55:12 amOber EE mentioned HDMI, and considering PC HW manufacturers boast aboutmil-spec"military" class, grade or whatever left and right, IMHO it's enough of a clue.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 11:04:24 am
content: Fair enough. My point was about "mil spec" being bandied about, nothing more.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2022, 09:04:13 am
content: I just ordered MECHANIC XW from Aliexpress (a couple of vendors there, check for many orders/reviews before ordering), two rolls of 50g were about 22 EUR shipped, took only about a week to arrive.Claims a 138oC melting point (have not checked that, but certainly way lower than standard leaded solder), works fine. No rosin core, though.