My way to professional prototype at home. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: flodins
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2012, 03:00:34 am
content: Hi,Just want to show my way of making a professional looking PCBs at home. This is faster and cheaper for small quantities than any manufacturer and satisfaction is priceless .Hope you like it (:Here is a design video:And here production:I have just developed through hole copper plating and tin plating so I will post more videos later.

author: KTP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2012, 03:13:15 am
content: I have never seen anyone do a solder mask at home...very neat and very nice job.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2012, 03:35:09 am
content: I wish my hacksaw moved that quick.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2012, 08:49:47 am
content: Mesmerizing!I didn't catch from the video how you got each side of the board to line up?

author: flodins
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2012, 09:28:18 am
content: as in the intro there are missing parts, because I did not want to wait while copying full SD card, but stay tuned for more videos on my channelafter exposure one layer i drill three 0.4mm holes in vias far from each other so placing a second mask is easy, misalignment is less than 0.1mmwith through hole copper plating, drilling is first step so there will be no problem to align photomasks,

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2012, 11:18:44 am
content: Great job!

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2012, 01:08:17 pm
content: Awesome training video, great work.

author: ChrisKiwi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2012, 01:45:02 pm
content: The finished result looks great! but what materials, chemicals, etc are you using? or have you got that information somewhere else? like on a blog or something?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2012, 02:23:39 pm
content: Pretty slick , but a few commentsSafety:1) fix the damn laminator so you don't have to mess woth the cover take the little board off the cover mount it on the machine and put some isolation over the exposed electrical comtacts2) uv lightbox . Bare wires plugging into an iec connector... Seriously ? Why no proper powerplug ? And why is that live mains carrying pcb not in a plastic box ?3) one gloved hand, one bare hand. The bare hand is touching chemicals more than the gloved hand in the video....Thru hole metallisation. That's just sticking a bunch of wires in holes.. I thought somebody finally had cracked the home rout to copper plating without all the chemicals.... A bit disappointedNow, as far as in dustrial process.. You are pretty close , but also far off.The principles are there but there are a few important differences.Dry film negative photomask , check. Works waaaay better than positive photomask.Lamination, checkExposure, nobody uses photplots anymore. They are expensive, wear out, get damaged. Its LDI or now even Maskless imaging which can create incredibly fine patterns. LDI: a laser writes the pattern to the board. Same principle of a laser printer. Board moves horizontal while a laser scans the rasterized image vertically. Maskless imager: a DLP chip ( like used in video projectors ) is used to deflect a UV powersource. can write halftones to create perfect circles.Developing. CheckEtching checkCleanup checkSoldermask. Dry film.. Not used anymore. Too fragile. Too much waste. Liquid photomask or printed photomask ( silkscreen) : liquid photomask : spray on , expose uv , wash off.But, for home usage the film way is the only solution.Soldermask.. Dynamask ? Developer is sodium carbonate.You could even do a text layer. There's got to be white dryfilm out there...All in all a pretty good video. But bad example for safety !

author: KTP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2012, 02:35:58 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 17, 2012, 02:23:39 pmI didn't realize all the saftey violations when I first watched the video....good point.I used to hand make/etch boards about 15 years ago, but now you can just send your gerbers to one of many companies and get back high quality silk screened boards in about a week or so.On the RGB matrix board I did recently, I ordered 10 boards about 9 inches by 8 inches each with silk screen and over 1000 holes (lots of thermal vias and such) for $220 total including shipping. They actually ended up sending me 12 boards, VERY high quality, TSSOP24 package pads were perfect, air knife finishing. I would still be drilling the via holes in the first board with a pile of 0.018 broken drill bits on the floor.But for a video on what you can do at home, I thought it was very interesting. I rank it along with that guy who hand built a vacuum tube at home...very impressive, but a similar transistor from digikey with better specs is $0.20

author: flodins
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2012, 07:31:36 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 17, 2012, 02:23:39 pmI dont care, I know what is inside and I will newer get shock or bad from chemicals. This isNOTa tutorial only ilustrative video. If someone want to play with such mess and will stick hand into... so one idiot less. My instalation isquite trialand I know what I am doing.QuotePlease read my first post not only watch videos. I have developed true through hole copper plating and tin platingafterrecording this viedo so I will post more videos later.QuoteI can do silk screen too.Quote from: KTP on July 17, 2012, 02:35:58 pm$220 is acctualy 1/3 of my monthly salary, so for only one board like on video I will do it by my self, especially if it is not extremely complicated otherwise the PCB company is the only way

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2012, 08:54:30 pm
content: flodinsWell done man the boards look great keep up the good work. I looking forward to your upcoming vids and maybe a tutorial in the future.On safety you should be as safe as practical the safety is not for you it is for the boffins that visit your lab.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2012, 09:32:49 pm
content: Quote from: flodins on July 17, 2012, 07:31:36 pmAnd that's the sort of attitude which leads to mistakes being made and injuries. For pete's sake, spend five minutes tidying it up.Little bodge jobs are fine for testing, but if you're going to actually use it,finish it properly.

author: CHexclaim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2012, 11:13:28 pm
content: A really nice job, congrats!I agree that there are many issues in the video to rant about, but for me, the bottom line is that this is impressive and done with pride.Charlie.

author: flodins
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2012, 01:50:19 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 17, 2012, 09:32:49 pmI will fix everything for next video (:

author: sorin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2012, 02:26:25 am
content: Quote from: flodins on July 17, 2012, 07:31:36 pmWhat post???Can you explain what materials did you used??

author: Stephen Hill
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2012, 11:20:58 am
content: Quote from: flodins on July 17, 2012, 03:00:34 amCan you estimate the cost of producing a single prototype board?The reason I ask is that I don't believe doing PCBs at home is now cheaper than getting a small batch from somewhere like Seeedstudio.For example, Seeedstudio can do 10 of 100mmx100mm double sided boards for ~$25.

author: flodins
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2012, 11:43:24 am
content: For this board is less than $2 and it took about 1h. Show me pcb house where I can order ONE board 100x100 mm for less than $10 including shipping and delivery in 24h.

author: Stephen Hill
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2012, 11:55:27 am
content: I assume you are excluding the cost of equipment and chemicals? A breakdown of your costs would be nice to see...Sorry for being skeptical, but I just don't believe that the cost of buying all the materials, chemicals, equipment is cheaper than getting a company to make them.

author: KTP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2012, 11:59:41 am
content: Quote from: flodins on July 18, 2012, 11:43:24 amThe advantage to your method is that it is great for one offs with fast turnaround. To get a single PCB made with next day delivery would cost several hundred dollars. It was actually quite funny for my RGB board. A single pc with 2 day turnaround was $250, but I could get 10 pc for $180 plus shipping with a 2 week turn (although they arrived in 8 days).There are places where you can get your board tossed in with other people's boards on a panel and probably get under that $10 figure, but we are talking many days wait.I think there is definately a good use for your methods and I like your video...looking foward to seeing you fix up some of the saftey issues though.

author: flodins
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2012, 12:24:10 pm
content: Quote from: Stephen Hill on July 18, 2012, 11:55:27 amIncluding chemicals.I will describe later how to use househeld stuff instead propper pure chemicals as I have.Equipment? hmm...Everyone have toothbrush, some cup, stick, and a halogen lamp(you don't need proper UV lamp for this) so there is no reason for including this in the cost.I like doing it by my self and even if I needed to invest, this is better solution for me.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2012, 03:58:07 am
content: Very impressive.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2012, 04:36:16 am
content: I really wish you had given more details on the chemicals and materials. Rats.It looks great - but it's much more of "look at my magic", then it is helpful. But I do think it looks nice!

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2012, 04:48:43 am
content: his chemicals are not that specialHe's using dry-film etch-resist and soldermask. Dynamask or Dupont or one of many brands. sold on ebay as Positive Dry-film laminate. Developer is Sodiumcarbonate or potassium carbonate.Precleaning the board is important. :- scrub copper clean using pumic or scotch brite pad.- Pre-etch in 5% hydrochloric acid to remove all oxidation.- dry- apply dry-film photomask ( peel backing material off )- laminate in hot laminator- expose to photomask- peel of top foil- develop in sodium carbonate-etch . with what ever. sodium persulfate , ammonium persulfate , feCl of your homebrey hydrochloric aci+h2o2. the photomask is designed for sodium persulfate as that is the industrial etchant used.- wash board in water- strip etch resist using sodium hydroxide ( positive photo developer ) or a real stripper.- dry board- apply dry filme solder mask : peel of backing , put on copper , laminate- expose to photomask- peel off top protective foil- develop in sodium carbonate- drill holes.if you want to put on a text layer : repeat step with different color of dynamask material. you culd even use photomaks as soldermask. that stuff is pretty thick and doesn't melt easy. it's a polymer. it hardens under UV light.nothing secret in the chemicals nor the process.get on ebay and search for 'dry film photoresist' and 'dry film developer'Dow chemicals Dynamask :http://www.octamex.de/shop/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=31&category_id=5848924494118370762daa6f026e22f7&Dupont Vacrel is another onehttp://www.frezycnc.eu/pcb-processing-manual/photoresist-and-soldermask/lamination/pouch-lamination/laminating-dry-films-with-the-modulam/http://www.megauk.com/dry_film_laminators.phphttp://www.mgchemicals.com/products/prototype.html

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2012, 05:12:09 am
content: Very helpful. Thanks.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2012, 05:47:43 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 20, 2012, 04:48:43 amIn the YouTube video his plastic bottle says sodium hydroxide on the label.I imagine sodium carbonate would work too, but would be a little less aggressive and therefore more controllable. Also much less corrosive to human skin.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2012, 06:06:08 am
content: Quote from: IanB on July 20, 2012, 05:47:43 amSodium hydroxide is the 'stripper' for the photoresist ( the moment you see the blue stuff peel off in chunkss and float away is sodium hydroxide.After exposing to UV light he develops in sodium carbonate or potassium carbonate.anyway. you can buy that stuff on ebay. foil + developer for cheap.By the way, Bungard ( well known pcb maker ) sells all that stuff too.

author: mazza85
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 20, 2012, 07:31:49 am
content: I've only made pcb at home using store available board that came with the photosensible mask already(I don't know their exact name), so I have some question.Why he don't work in low-light with the photomask? He "activate" it when drops some liquid (which?) between the board and the printed acetate before UV exposition?Sent from my phone with Tapatalk

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2012, 05:53:54 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 17, 2012, 02:23:39 pmWell, completely without chemicals would be a problem. But there is an easy way to do the hole-wall activation without any special chemicals.I do my own through-plated PCB's occasionally if i want them quickly. First is drilling. I placed a small b/w camera module below my drill-press, looking at the drill. Made a small µC circuit that simply overlays a crosshair onto the image, adjustable in x and y direction using two potentiometers. The result is fed into a small b/w CRT monitor, the ones used for camping and stuff, running off of 12 volts.As for the hole wall activation. There is carbon conductive ink available. I use the "SD 2843 HAL" from "Lackwerke Peters". It's a thixotropic paste that becomes a bit more "fluid" (like honey) when stirred. Dilute that with a little bit of ethanol, so that the consistency is like warm honey.After drilling i sand the surface of the PCB with fine sanding paper to remove the ridges around the holes after drilling. Then i pour a bit of the thinned carbon ink on the PCB and press it into and through the holes with a squeege. Repeat the same from the other side with the excess ink. Then suck out the ink from the holes with a vaccuum cleaner. Place the PCB on a flat surface. Put some piece of cotton canvas or similar on a "sander block". It's just a block of cork. Wet it with ethanol and wipe over the board to remove the ink that sticks to the surface. Don't apply too much pressure or you will wash away some ink from the hole/copper boundary, loosing contact.Cure the PCB/ink in an oven, at around 150°C for 10 minutes or so. After cooling down, another round of sanding the surfaces is done to make sure that any ink on the surfaces is remove, if needed.Now place the board in a copper electrolyte bath for electroplating, add the copper anodes and turn on the current. My electrolyte mixture is:1700 ml H2O490 ml H2SO4 38% (battery acid)280 grams CuSO4300 mg NaCl2 ml Tween 20The latter is an agent that greatly reduces the surface tension of the liquid. Make sure to use pure copper for the anodes, otherwise you will get a bad plating. If you can't find pure copper, at least wrap the anodes into a paper-towel and then place it into pouches made of cotton fabric.Grab an old oscillating desktop fan sans the blades. Attach some stiff wire to it, and attach the other end of the wire to whatever holds your PCB in the bath. That is used to gently move the PCB in the plating bath so that the electrolyte can flow through the holes.Start the whole thing with a 18µ coper-cladded PCB. For a euro-sized PCB (160mm x 100mm) i use about 1.5 to 2 amperes, for about an hour or more.When the plating is done, wash the PCB. If needed (due to impurities in the copper anodes, for example) slightly sand off the surfaces again. Laminate with tenting resist. Expose, develop, etch.Attached are two images of how the final result looks like. One is chemically tinned, the other is "blank".Just the ink gives a few ohms per hole between the two sides. In case you only want to make a test prototype, and you don't need high currents or precise analogue stuff, you may not need to do the electroplating. But i have no idea how long/robust that will be in the long term.Greetings,Chris

author: Short Circuit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2012, 08:28:22 pm
content: Nice work!Your PTH process sounds very similar to that expensive LPKF systemhttp://www.printtec.nl/contents/nl/d378.htmlhttp://www.printtec.nl/contents/nl/LPKF-ProConduct.pdf

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2012, 10:24:58 pm
content: SUPERB!!! thanks for sharing that! ;-)

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 03, 2012, 08:05:48 am
content: Quote from: Short Circuit on August 02, 2012, 08:28:22 pmWell, _every_ PTH process sounds similar to each other. It always starts with drilling the holes, goes on to make the hole-walls conductive, and then electroplating. The LPKF stuff is so expensive because they use a silver based paste. And IIRC, it's not meant to get electroplated in the end at all.However, the process i presented differs a little bit from how it's done in the industry. That is because i'm electroplating the whole board. The "real" process only electroplates the tracks and holes, not the whole board. First the board is drilled, then laminated with photoresist (or dipped in photosensitive ink, Peters has that stuff as well). The layout is then exposed inverted. That is, all the parts that are later etched away are covered. All that is meant to be left is "open". That gets electroplated, including the holes. After that it gets electroplated with a thin layer of tin. It is that tin that is the real etch-resist. The photoresist is stripped off, and the the board is etched.I have no idea if, instead of electroplating the tin, a chemical tin can be used, never tried that. If that would work it would be great.Anyways, my idea behind the process i came up with was to use as few chemicals as possible. It's, uh, 4 or 5 years since i came up with it, and it works. Of course it's not the "real thing", but it does the job well. There are a few perks with it. For example, it's hard to control how thick the deposited layer of carbon ink on the hole walls is going to be. So you have to add in that factor, and make the holes for THT parts big enough so that they still fit in after plating. That of course increases the minimum size for vias and pads.But then, it's not meant (and very likely not usable) for replacing the real industrial process anyways. It's good enough for home use, and surely much faster and less work than using tiny bits of wire to make via connections. After all, the majority of the time required is just waiting for stuff to complete, the plating taking the most time. But even that can be shortened if you only need a quick prototype. No need to have a thick copper layer deposited for that purpose, just enough to get 0 ohms (and filling it up with solder if higher current demands exists in the circuit).Greetings,Chris

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 03, 2012, 08:28:35 am
content: Attached are three more images. "solderside.jpg" and "soldered_through.jpg" are from my proof-of-concept trials. Made a bunch of holes on a PCB, plated them as described, hand-milled a grid on one side after that to check continuity. Then i soldered in some wires to check if it nicels solders through to the other side. It does so nicely, as can be seen.The third image is just showing a PCB that just finished the electroplating process. That's how it looks like when it's done properly.Maybe i'll start a new thread, explaining the whole thing step-by-step, with images. Just need to find time for that.Greetings,Chris

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 04, 2012, 02:14:27 pm
content: After watching this video I went out and bought a cheap laminator; I added a simple push button to start/stop the motor so I can manually slow it through the rollers - works nice!!

author: Pat Pending
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2012, 08:32:47 pm
content: Wow!!Two questionsAre your photo-positives laser printed? if so, how as your plots look very good.Is that water or mineral oil used to hold the positives in close contact with the copper surface?Great technique.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2012, 06:49:27 am
content: It probably depends in the printer. Some laser printers can give you good coverage of large black regions, but vast majority do not. This causes polygons to be spotted with tiny holes.Quite actually affordable way to get perfectly black photomaska is to ask some company doing business in advertisment (ya know - billboards, stamps, gadgets, business cards, etc). They usually charge reasonably low (like $2-3 a pop?) and quality is much better than anything you could possibly do at home.

author: flolic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2012, 07:26:10 am
content: About printers and photomask printing:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-chat/diy-pcb-inkjet-printers-and-paper/msg77444/#msg77444

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2012, 07:26:59 am
content: Quote from: poorchava on August 24, 2012, 06:49:27 amIn the printing business, generally speaking you need more resolution to print b+w "line art" than greyscale or colour in order to remove the appearance of the blocky "polygons". Although the consumer laser printers are pretty amazing, a print house would typical use an "Imagesetter" which will print at ~3000 dpi. The old imagesetters would use something called "Rip" (Raster Image Processor) , The Rip would take a vector format then rasterize it into raw pixel data very quickly then send it to the Imagesetter., But now I think most modern Imagesetters have the Rip's built in.

author: flodins
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 06:02:02 pm
content: New pcb in that technology

author: lewis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 07:19:36 pm
content: Well done sir! Keep up the good work!I don't see why lots of people in this thread are/were decrying Flodins for wanting to produce PCBs at home. Being able to produce your own PCBs has a lot of advantages. The main one being that if you get the design wrong first time around you don't need to wait/pay for a re-spin. Another big one is the speed at which you can have something up and running. And the unit cost is almost nothing, if you've got the gear.We make our own prototype and small production PCBs in-house, and can do it extremely fast. After Christmas I designed and manufactured a customised product in two days because my customer needs it by 4th Jan. From initial concept, design, MCU programming, PCB manufacture, assembly, testing, through to packing it in the box was 2 days. We couldn't have done that as quickly or cheaply without in-house PCB production, and I applaud anyone who wants to have a go at it.

author: fenclu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2013, 07:34:54 pm
content: Personally, I can recommend linuxgeek81's channel. He does some excellent work as well:https://www.youtube.com/user/linuxgeek81One of his boards:

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2013, 10:38:42 pm
content: There's nothing wrong with wanting to do your own PCBs, and I don't think anyone was saying it was exactly. There were the safety concerns (very valid and meant sincerely) and the cost aspects.For my small business and employer, we will never do our own PCBs. Most of ours decently complicated, and frankly TIME is the chief advantage, not money. At a standard billing rate of >=100$/hr, spending even an hour or two quickly approaches the cost of having them made. We use Advanced Circuits frequently and pay about 450$ for our prototypes. That's less than 4 hours of my time to the customer. By the time you add in the associated maintenance of everything, you're not saving that much.So the trade off is time making pcbs vs time doing other stuff. Neither answer is the RIGHT one in general; it's very specific to your usage. For hobby, absolute cost is typically the overriding factor, not the money value of time.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2013, 11:26:35 pm
content: Quote from: jerry507 on January 09, 2013, 10:38:42 pmOK, but:Time = getting PCBs done fasterMoney = getting PCBs done cheaperQuoteYour argument here considers cost, which does not support your initial premise that time is the main factor. If time was the factor, i.e. getting the PCBs done as fast as possible, then you would do whatever it takes no matter the cost.So for your situation, apparently, you are prepared to wait to have the PCBs done outside even if it takes longer because overall that way is more economical. For someone else, like "lewis" above, a rapid turnaround may be absolutely critical and this may justify the increased cost of making boards in-house.

author: MrsR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 06:45:04 pm
content: I liked your video, but I will stick with may cad and Pen Plotter resist mainly because my boards are only SMD and measure 19mmx24mm and 50 parts. If I could do the masking system as easily as you seem to do I would swap for my test boards.Rachael5 Stars for your Videos though

author: HeliEye
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 06, 2013, 08:27:37 pm
content: Cool Video... Was not so keen on the laminate method, I make all my in house prototype artwork on Inkjet film.The time from printing the artwork on film to having an etched board in my hand takes 25 minutes (assuming I had pre-heated the etchant bubble tank)Most of my pcb's are all SMD, so rarely do I have to drill anything.. a bonus.But... I really like one bit of the laminating....The Film Solder Resist..Just this one part of the process is making think about this film and laminator'sNice workSteve

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2013, 09:29:20 am
content: Having CNC machine at home also helps tremendously. And yuu don't need any superb rigidity. MDF/plywood+drawer slides+cheap steppers+threaded rods+dremel will do miraclesResult:

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2013, 10:05:01 am
content: Having made quite a few home PCBs myself i can say that drilling the holes exactly in the correct place is one of the hardest parts.Without a CNC it's very hard to get them perfect.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2013, 01:18:06 pm
content: I actually think that getting alignment right is the hardest part. When you transfer first and then drill holes, you can get hole perfectly centered with the pad. When you have holes drilled first, you have to keep alignment of paper with trace patter with the hole pattern at all times, which is not that easy when using hacked laminator (it has a tendency to pull pcb and paper from your hand). On the other hand having holes drilled first really makes fabricating double-sided pcbs a breeze, because you have common reference points visible on both sides.I'm thinking about making a video about how i'm fabricating my pcb's

author: carloscuev
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2013, 09:37:46 pm
content: Quote from: mamalala on August 02, 2012, 05:53:54 pmHello, I've been trying to do electroplating following this video:http://youtu.be/KTNuTv_IQp4which uses the formula from thinktink (http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voliii/consumbl/cplatmix.htm) except for the Copper Gleam CLX he's using Polyethylene Glycol (PEG) 3350. I've used PEG 3350 and PEG 6000 with same results (see attached picture) would you have any clue about what I'm doing wrong or what I'm missing?I've noticed that you are using less sulfuric acid but more copper sulfate than the thinktink recipe, also you are using Polysorbate 20, do you think that Polysorbate is better than PEG? I think I know where I can get polysorbate in my country, but I have to go to the other side of the city.Hope you could give me some clue

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 14, 2013, 10:00:00 pm
content: Hi carloscuev,the polysorbate 20 (Tween 20) is simply to reduce the surface tension of the liquid, so that it can enter into holes easier.I think there are two issues you have. From the picture you showed you have too much current, and your copper anodes are not pure copper. The high current causes high current density at the edges, so that more copper will deposit there. Regarding the grains on the surface, i get similar grains with my anodes too, which are an copper-alloy. The foreign metal cause to deposit as rather large grains onto the surface, which in turn causes a higher current densitiy at that point, causing more copper to deposit there.So, first you should try to reduce the current. For a double-sided Euro-sized board (100 x 160 mm) i use roundabout 2 Amperes. If your sample is smaller, then you have to reduce the current accordingly. That is, for example, 1 Ampere for 80 x 100 mm, 500 Miliampere for 50 x 80, etc. In any case, start with a lower current first, then increase it a bit every 5 or 10 minutes, repeat until you reach the desired current. I spread it over 3 to 4 steps usually. Also, keep the stuff you electroplate moving through the liquid, and at a proper distance to the anodes. I have no less than 2 cm distance at all times.Regarding the copper anodes, if the above does not help and you still get a grainy surface, the anodes are not pure copper. In that case remove the anodes, wash them under running water and then dry them. Then wrap them in one or two layers of soft paper towels, the stuff you use in the kitchen (alternatively you can use toilet paper as well). After that put them in a "pocket" made of cotton fabric. The idea here is that only the copper gets into the fluid (as copper ions), since the paper acts as a filter, while the cotton pocket holds back the wet and fragile paper (after all, you do not want any contamination in the fluid). but the other metals are held back since they do not go "into solution". That should definitely stop the grains from appearing then. Make sure that there are no holes or openings in the wrapping/cotton-pocket.Last but not least, make sure that the part you want to electroplate is absolutely clean. It can help a lot if you micro-etch the PCB first. Simply place it into the etchant after you cleaned it, for maybe half a minute maximum. Remove from the etchant, rinse clean under water, then place into the electroplating.Greetings,Chris

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 14, 2013, 10:18:16 pm
content: Forgot to mention:Check pharmacies for the Tween 20, or shops that produce beauty related stuff. Also, you can find it on Amazon as "tween 20".I have no idea what the hydrochloric acid is used for in the receipe you linked to. I don't use that but use regular salt. The salt helps to get a shinier surface.What is that "Copper Gleam" supposed to be? Sounds like some super-special-snake-oil stuff that is only there to fill the pockets of the company who makes it. Never heard of it, never used it.It's always best to stick to simple receipes that do not use any exotic stuff. All you need it water, sulphuric acid and copper sulfate. The salt and Tween 20 is already optional, so to speak, although the Tween helps with the surface tension (and thus the tiny holes) and the salt helps with a nice surface. But neither of them are really needed, it would simply mean that you have to put a bit more effort in the process to, for example, get rid of air pockets in the holes.Greetings,Chris

author: carloscuev
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2013, 11:42:07 pm
content: Quote from: mamalala on March 14, 2013, 10:18:16 pmThanks so much Chris, I've made a test with a bag made of 1 micron polypropylene felt (conveniently I have a close source of this material) and results were way beter, I'm having small grains but now it's a lot less.Your current density is6.25mA/cm², given by2000mA/(10cm*16cm*2)The small PCB in the picture is only 1.25cm x 2.9cm, has 6 0.5mm holes, and 6 1mm holes and I designed it for testing purposes (also it's a small boost converter to test zener diodes) and I have plated it at 50mA, so it's50mA/(1.25cm*2.9cm*2) = 6.89 mA/cm²how much time do you leave the board plating? have you came up with a formula to calculate the plating thickness?The surfactant I'm using is PEG 6000, I believe it's a surfactant somewhat used in copper plating, I found this interesting abstract about using PEG in plating processhttp://jes.ecsdl.org/content/152/11/C769but can't access the entire article. I have read some people are using PEG 3350, commonly found as a laxativeMiraLaxor in my countryContuMax. I want to test Tween 20 but first I want to make more tests with the PEG 6000 I bought from eBay.The Copper Gleam is a "special" surfactant for copper plating PCBs (http://www.dow.com/products/product/copper-gleam-125-s-2/), would be nice to test, but not interested as they probably wouldn't sell small quantities and ship anywhere for everyone to make their home plating baths.About the NaCl vs HCl, I have only read that it's necessary to have a few Cl- ions present in the plating bath, the quantities need to be very small, in thethinktink website recipethey state only 12 PPM of HCl, don't know which function they serve. Also it would be nice to know which one of the 2 Cl- providers (NaCl or HCl) is best, and now many PPM are optimal.I'm making 60ml tests each time, I'm going to do another clean solution with more copper sulfate and less sulfuric acid, the relative amounts of your recipe or course. And test a new mini board, I'll be posting results tomorrow.Greetings,Carlos

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 16, 2013, 12:26:23 am
content: Regarding the current, i'm using a somewhat lower current than what would be possible. I never bothered to do some formula for the time, i have it in the bath for 2-3 hours. I came up with that time once using a micrometer screw to check that about 40 µm copper was added (i start with 18 µm copper cladding and wanted a bit over 35 µm as end result). From then on i just sticked to that time. Sure, not the way to do in a professional environment, but more than good enough for home/hobby use.As for the grains, the cotton fabric i used is really tightly woven. Since the fibers also slightly expand when wet, there a virtually no real "openings" left. My first try using only paper towels was better than without, but i also still got grains on the surface. Only after adding the cotton fabric it was OK.Good luck,Chris

author: carloscuev
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2013, 12:22:26 am
content: I went to visit a local electroplating shop here in my country and I learned that good plating results are achieved using a Phosphorus-Copper alloy as the anode. He gave me a small used piece of anode to test and that worked as magic, see the attached files. In fact if you search google for "phosphor copper pcb" you'll see that is what is used by manufacturers to do vias.In the first picture I show that the hole wall activation is made with 2 layers of simple waterproof indian ink, in this caseHiggins Black Magicink withNO graphite addedas some may recommend, I found that adding graphite clogs very easily small holes, I'm looking to buy very fine graphite and do further testing, but the actual technique of applying one layer, curing, another layer, curing and then sanding the copper surface to remove excess ink is working wonders.BTW. The first 3 small holes are 0.5mm, then there are 3 holes of 1/32" size, then 3 holes of 1/26" size. The big one at the edge is 1/8"

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2013, 03:36:05 am
content: That looks very good indeed!True, in professional setups they use phosphorous copper anodes. However, with a little care-taking, other copper types work fine as well, at least for a hobby/home setup. At least that is what i experienced.Regarding the ink, that looks good as well. What i use here is a carbon conductive ink, SD 2843 HAL from "Lackwerke Peters" (a German manufacturer). They hand out samples if you ask nicely, but not sure with international customers. But i think any other screen-printing ink of similar type/composition will do just fine as well. That ink is normally used to screen-print conductive traces/patterns on a PCB. I'm thinning it down using alcohol to give it a warm-honey-like consistency. Then i smear it into the holes, wipe off the excess and cure it in the oven. After that i sand the surface with a rather fine-grained sandpaper. After that comes the plating. So far i was able to get holes down to 0.3mm in diameter, with repeatably successful results, that is, no failed VIA so far.If you run into troubles with the contact between copper surface and VIA, try reducing the current you use at the beginning. At the edge you have a rather high current density. If you have a very thin copper/conductive-ink layer there while using high current, you may (literally) burn it away at that edge/point.Anyways, good job that you did there, congratulations!Greetings,Chris

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2013, 04:32:22 am
content: This thread is drifting from Flodins original post, but drifting in a good wayMaybe there are other people interested in copper plating who are not following here because they do not know?Are you (carloscuev) sucking ink through the holes with a vacuum? it appears mamalala isn't. Also would be interested in hearing if either of you has experimented with limited -or asymmetric AC instead of pure DC to achieve a smoothing action.Very interested in trying this, thanks guys.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2013, 05:30:59 am
content: With copper plating using high ripple DC is best, simplest is to use a half wave rectifier ( single diode) with a resistor across it to provide a reverse current of about 5% of the forward current. Gives a better plating action but not as smooth. Only time you want pure ripple free DC is if you are plating chrome to a mirror finish. If there is ripple there then it comes out matt. With copper this is not a problem. Best to start off at low current and gradually go higher, sharp edges are current concentrators until they accumulate enough metal to round off some what. If you want to practice without drilling holes take a leaf and paint it with the ink then electroplate it till it is thick then peel it off. You can then get a negative of the leaf surface.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2013, 06:40:12 am
content: Thanks for this thread. I had just about dismissed the idea of making my own plated through hole PCBs but you have got me interested again.I just went to my local art shop and got a bottle of Daler Rowney FW Acrylic Black ink and did a quick test. Without any graphite, I can get a about 500 ohm resistance in a 1mm hole using just the ink. Probably lower with a second coat.Does that sound like enough to be useable or do I need to get a resistance down in the low ohms?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 02:30:27 am
content: Noob question, once the holes plating is done, how do you cover or seal those holes at the pcb traces etching process ?

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 02:34:46 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on March 22, 2013, 02:30:27 amI was wondering that as well.My guess is that after copper plating, you have to add a negative mask to both sides of the board and do tin electroplating. Then you remove the mask and etch the remaining exposed copper.Any methods that do not require the tin plating?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 06:47:06 am
content: 500R is fine, start at a very low current and slowly ramp it u with time, pull the board out the first few times and look to see when you get a full coat of copper then you can ramp it up.

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 01:21:18 pm
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on March 21, 2013, 04:32:22 amWell, i use a vacuum to suck it back out after the ink i'm using is squeezed through the holes. The idea is that only a rather thin layer of that conductive ink stays on the hole-walls, making contact with the copper-cladding on each side of the PCB.Greetings,Chris

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 01:25:22 pm
content: Quote from: amspire on March 22, 2013, 02:34:46 amYes. Use dry-film resist. Laminate it onto each side of the PCB, then expose and develop. That stuff is called "tenting resist" for a reason: it will tent over the holesThen etch the board and strip off the resist once done. After that you can either use chemical tin and tin the whole thinng, or use a solder-stop resist like Dynamask...Greetings,Chris

author: carloscuev
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2013, 09:01:29 am
content: Oh sorry for not replying, I thought the forum would auto-notify me about any replys. Now I've configured my account to do soQuote from: mamalala on March 21, 2013, 03:36:05 amThanks, you also gave me some tips!Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on March 21, 2013, 04:32:22 amIn my case, the Indian Ink is too thin so if I suck the ink with a vacumm I'm left with a very thin layer with high resistance, I use a booger sucker haha (see attachment)just to unclog the holesbecause if curing with the holes cloged of ink, it will dry clogged. So that way, with a fat layer of ink in the hole, when curing it deposits a nice conductive layer. As mamalala said, his conductive ink mixture is about warm-honey viscosity so in his case, vacumming the holes is the way to go.Quote from: amspire on March 21, 2013, 06:40:12 am500ohm in a 1mm hole of 1.6mm PCB is what I'm gettingso it's enough. Proportionally we're talking about 1kOhm for a 0.5mm hole and so on. And as SeanB said:Quote from: SeanB on March 22, 2013, 06:47:06 amYes, I start at 25% of my calculated current, and ramp it up 25% every 10 minutes until I get to 100% By the time I've reached that point I can see in the microsope a lot of particles of copper already deposited over the ink, looks rather beautifulQuote from: BravoV on March 22, 2013, 02:30:27 amI cover them with paint, the same process of the conductive ink but now with paint to mask them from the acid. I got this idea from a youtube video, keep reading this reply for the link please.Quote from: mamalala on March 22, 2013, 01:25:22 pmI'm using dry-film resist, but big holes don't get tented, however my smallest ones (0.5mm) do get tented, but anything up from there won't, what dry-film resist are you using?Some very valuable notes (I think):About the process in general:As amspire I had dismissed the idea too, until I saw this video:http://youtu.be/bD9imNIkTKMand browsing that user channel found this one too:http://youtu.be/KTNuTv_IQp4If you're interested in plating vias at home it's a good idea to watch them too. Here they cite this thinktink website (http://www.thinktink.com) that has lots of valuable information.About curing the ink:When using just indian ink, as in my case Higgins Black Magic with no added graphite there's a problem. If you cure the board too fast you'll get a thin non conductive layer on top of the ink, I think it's because this ink has some acrylic compund or something and if you cure it too fast you'll have good conductivity from layer to layer, but the copper won't deposit. I observed this because doing a test I cured it with a lighter, raising the temperature very fast, I could see the ink bubbling on the big holes. And then when plating no copper was adhered to the surface. So I changed to curing it with a heatgun slowly ramping up the temperature (1 min) and then letting it cool down. You'll see that the conductivity gets very affected with the curing temperature you're using. I'm looking to do further tests with and temperature controlled oven to find out the best curing temperature and ramp-up time for this ink. Also as I mentioned, I've got (from ebay too) 5 micron graphite powder, I'll run some more tests. Here's the 5 micron graphite from eBay:http://www.ebay.com/itm/121066283612About the anodesMake an effort to get Phosphorus-Copper alloy anodes, search for electroplating shops in your country, search in alibaba and ask for a sample (almost always you pay shipping) or do anything you can to get them, the results are way better than using other types of anodes. The guy from the youtube video says he found Phosphorus-Copper pipe in Home Mart being sold as heat exchange pipe or something like that, watch the video. The small anode I got from the local electroplating shop looks very ugly because it's used and highly eroded, but produces amazing results, I'm looking forward to buy more, I've phoned them and I got the addres of their provider. I attch a picture of the ugly but magic anode. Also in order to keep your plating solution usable for long time you'll need Polypropylene felt bags to cover the anodes as the anodes will generate a black slug and you don't want that in you solution. The local electroplating shop has been using the same solution they first made since 1994! Again, in the youtube video you can see how they look like.About the plating solutionIn the thinktink website you can get the recipe (http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voliii/consumbl/cplatmix.htm) for the solution. And as the user in the YT video says, instead of that rare Copper Gleam GLX as surfactant, you can use Polyethylene Glycol 3350 available at drug stores, even in my country (Mexico) I was able to find it, then I bought from ebay Polyethylene Glycol 6000 but both of them work well, haven't made a deep comparison of results but they were at plain sight the same. The problem I had is that I got 98% sulfuric acid instead of 35% and the problem is that this ratios are not volumetric, they are mass rates, so for a 35% sulfuric acid, 35% of its weight is sulfiric acid, and the rest is water, but pure sulfuric acid has a density of about 1.84g/cm³ so the calculations turn out to be a bit harder than expected when not dealing with the concentrations of that recipe. However I studied some days a bit of chemistry and made a PHP script to easily find the right amounts, you can find it here:http://escalalibre.com/edwt/just click in "6. Via Electroplating Solution Calculator" and fill the requested fields according to the chemicals that you can get and hit "Calculate" to get the volumes and weights of each component for a specified amount of solution.Very Important Note:as you can see, the amount of HCl is very small, but AFAIK is very critical not to mix more than the specified amount of Cl-ions, as a tip, if you got 35% HCl, you can mix in a separate container 34 parts of distilled water by weight to 1 part of 35% HCl by weight, with this you have 1% HCl so if you recalculate for 1% HCl using the web tool, the quantity of 1% HCl would be higher and more manageable than using 35% HCl.About the plating time and layer thicknessIn the thinktink website you can read about this:http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/copplate.htmbut I'm not sure if the same would apply if not using their Copper Gleam GLX surfactant, something tells me it doesn't matter, so I also made a simple calculator for the plating time and current. Again, you can find it by going here:http://escalalibre.com/edwt/and clicking in "7. Via Electroplating Current and Time Calculator" and as you can read there, the current density is recommended to a maximum of 20 amps per square foot (ASF)Hope all of you can find this large post useful.Cheers!

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2013, 02:30:19 pm
content: A lot of great information there. Thanks. I will give the process a go.So it looks like for double sided boards, I will have to give up the toner transfer and go to dry film.And I had just finally modded my laminator too to boost the temperature!Richard.

author: carloscuev
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2013, 05:02:38 pm
content: Quote from: amspire on March 24, 2013, 02:30:19 pmWell, I've tried toner transfer and it worked, but now there's a new problem, not only the alignment of the 2 layers is important, now the new problem becomes the alignment of the 2 layers and the PCB, take a look at the youtube video, the guy still uses toner trasnfer

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2013, 09:29:20 pm
content: Quote from: carloscuev on March 24, 2013, 05:02:38 pmYes! very useful, muchas gracias. You are saving us all time and frustration. I have been looking for phosphor-copper alloy and there seems to be multiple types: ones with relatively low phosphor around 0.02% upto 0.06% and just copper which is intended for electroplating and then higher mixtures plus other metals which are intended for brazing rods, ect. I am thinking that the problems with just using regular copper sheet or bars isn't so much the lack of phosphor but rather the alloying metals like zinc interfere and pollute the electrolyte. If I find a good source for anodes I will let the forum know. Searching right now just in Canada/U.S. to start.

author: carloscuev
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2013, 10:36:40 pm
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on March 24, 2013, 09:29:20 pmYes, I think so too. I was trying at first with spirals of nude grouding wire, awful results. I got better results with plumbing copper pipe. I think this wire made just for grouding is made of a nasty mixture of copper, zinc, carbon and what not. But definitively Phosphor Copper works miracles. I don't know the content of phosphor on this one, all I know is that it's calledPlus 4Phosphorus-Copper (http://www.galvanolyte.com.mx/indmeta.htm) maybe that 4 means 0.04% ? I'll call and ask

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 01:07:03 pm
content: Im curious on this, has anyone tried plugging vias in DIY boards with solder paste, eg;Drill out holes for viasGet a griddle/electric frying pan/small cooktopPlace a large, very flat block of Aluminium on top of it.Using an accurate thermocouple, get the temp to 190~ degreesPlace board on plate, wait for board to reach temperature.Using a syringe, carefully fill the holes with 63/37 eutectic solder paste (smallest particle size preferably, with no clean flux) until it just comes out the top and wets the surface on the top.Turn off the heat, wait for temp to drop to 175~ degreesFlip the board over, turn the heat back onFill vias from the other side in same manner.Turn off heat, wait for temp to drop to 175~ and remove board to cool.Using an aluminium plate would be nice, keeping an even temperature across the board. Additionally, 63/37 won't stick to it, and its fairly soft, so easy to mill flat.Flatness would be important, this would stop the solder from flowing out the other side of the board, and would apply even heat to the board, meaning minimal temperature needed.Eutectic solder would be good, because you wouldn't need the board to fully cool between turning it over and it is very easy to tell when it is a safe temperature to flip.Small particle paste would be nice too, to allow it to fill the voids easier.No clean flux in the paste may be necessary; if flux residue got caught inside the via you wouldn't want it to corrode your board.

author: krivx
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 01:35:12 pm
content: How do you stop the solder from failing out of the vias when you solder the parts?

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 11:31:27 pm
content: @flodins, nice job! This post started almost 2 years ago, how has your process changed since then?

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2014, 04:23:59 am
content: Quote from: krivx on March 06, 2014, 01:35:12 pmSurface tension should hold it in there just fine.