Why My Camera Does Not Work With "Good" Battery? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2011, 08:43:36 am
content: I have tested 2 AA 1.5v batteries with multitester and battery tester. Former shows 0.06v difference between both while battery tester shows both as moderately good.1st Battery With Multitester:1st Battery With Battery Tester:2nd Battery With Multitester:2nd Battery With Battery Tester:Battery Tester's Information Table:As you see from table,Good/Lowor moderate in my case should not be below 1.0v but my batteries are above this criteria.But when i tried both in Pentax digital camera (works on 2 AAs), it did not even start. I tried with 1.36v battery combined with new battery which did not work. Then i tried with 1.42v battery combined with new battery which worked actually.0.06v seems like a little difference and battery tester showed both as moderately good but for some reason camera worked with 1.42v one. Why is it so and can it be that camera has minimum voltage criteria to work with?Thanks.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2011, 09:53:15 am
content: Dear Boris_yo:--Check your post. Your pictures are not showing up."It is no good to try to stop knowledge from going forward. Ignorance is never better than knowledge. " Enrico Fermi 1901 1954Best RegardsClear Ether

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2011, 10:05:46 am
content: A fresh alkaline cell will measure >1.5V with no load. 1.3V is pretty deadBattery testers usually apply some load, so you will see a difference between a tester and a DMM.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2011, 11:47:44 am
content: Quote from: SgtRockThey are showing. I have tested in Chrome and Internet Explorer.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 05, 2011, 10:05:46 amSo with battery tester voltage will be lower? But with 1.3v tester shows in the middle of good. Maybe 1.3v is fine for low power consumption electronics but not for digital cameras.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2011, 12:29:06 pm
content: Dear Boris_yo:--Sorry to have given you the false alarm.Most peculiar, I still cannot see them. I can see the pictures on all the other posts.--Does anybody, have an idea on this one?"I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled."P. G. WodehouseBest RegardsClear Ether

author: rr100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2011, 01:39:41 pm
content: Normal alkaline batteries aren't meant for high drain devices like digital cameras.1.36V with no load is quite low, especially in a 2AA camera. Not necessarily because of the voltage itself but because the battery most likely has already a high internal resistance and the voltage will drop further with load.Usual advice is to just use some decent NiMh rechargeable batteries like Sanyo Eneloop.

author: Jon Chandler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2011, 03:49:58 pm
content: I have a Pentax K-1000 dSLR that's kind of picky about batteries. Alkalines don't last very long.What works best is lithium batteries. They cost more but last for many more shots - the cost per shot is way cheaper than using alkalines.

author: elliott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2011, 10:39:49 pm
content: Quote from: Jon Chandler on November 05, 2011, 03:49:58 pmMy Pentax K100D loves Eneloops, I get a couple hundred more shots out of Lithiums, but I still get 600 out of a set of Eneloops. I've used the same 8 batteries for nearly 3 years and they are as good today as they were new.

author: Jon Chandler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2011, 10:56:32 pm
content: I'll have to give the Eneloops a try, not that I'm unhappy with the lithium performance. I couldn't believe how quickly alkalines were dead when I tried those once.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2011, 05:01:23 pm
content: Quote from: rr100You mean NiMh batteries have less internal resistance? So resistance increases as battery gets lower in capacity?Quote from: elliottWell i don't have fast charger such as fromone of these. Sometimes i need battery fast and alkalines can help here. Of course if i had GP latest model i could charge in 15 minutes.

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2011, 06:14:32 pm
content: Digital cameras are very hungry on batteries. I have one that baulks on alkalines (ie low batt) but the same batteries will run for many months on a less demanding devices (radio, torch etc). My answer was to used 2000mamp hour nicads or similar and I got very good life between recharging. Its all about capacity and internal resistance, suffice to say you need more grunt for a digital camera than a radio.

author: Raff
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2011, 02:45:17 am
content: I have a Pentax K100D also, and I find that it is indeed very piccy about batteries, and it seems how they are charged. I use the ALDI version of low self discharge alkalines, and find that if charged with my Jaycar fast charger, the camera wont start up reliably, and if it does start up it indicates that the batteries are flat soon after. After some experimentation, I now use a Nikon 240v powered double AA charger I picked up at a garage sale, it seems to charge the cells a bit slower than the Jaycar charger, but works wll indeed! The camera has no issues at all now, and they stay charged for months and the camera is ready toi go anytime now.Raff

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2011, 02:56:22 am
content: Quote from: Raff on November 09, 2011, 02:45:17 amThere is no such thing as a "low self discharge alkaline". Do you mean low self-discharge rechargeables?QuoteThis probably means the Jaycar charger is crap or broken. There is no reasonable reason for this to occur with a good charger.QuoteFurther evidence that the Jaycar charger is defective, presuming your batteries are truly rechargeables and not alkalines.

author: Raff
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2011, 06:26:28 am
content: Yeah, sorry I mean low self discharge NiMh like the Eneloops, but the Aldi brand. Strange thing is that the Jaycar charger seems to work well with my other NiMh cells which range from old GP brand ones to Sanyo ones. I have a feeling that the sensing circuit to detect that the cells are fully charged is not working correctly with the low self discharge ones, odd I know, but it seems that way. I will have to get in the shed and tinker and see what is happening there I think

author: elliott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2011, 02:06:13 pm
content: I use a La Crosse BC-900 charger. I never charge faster than 500mA, I usually charge at 200mA, it takes a while, but the batteries stay cool.I carry 4 sets of 4 batteries with me, 2 sets for the camera, 2 sets for the flash. If I think I'll need some extra power, like when doing super long exposures and light painting, I'll keep a couple sets of lithiums in the bag too. I've also found that after my camera says the batteries are too low, my flash will fire a few dozen times with them.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2011, 05:41:38 pm
content: Quote from: elliott on November 09, 2011, 02:06:13 pmDoes the -dV detection work reliably at 200mA? Most charger manuals I've seen recommend against charging at less than 0.3/0.25 C because the change in dV may be too low to be detected at low charging rates.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2011, 05:48:54 pm
content: Quote from: alm on November 09, 2011, 05:41:38 pmI think it's not reliable at 200 mA and the batteries may be considerably over charged. On the other hand, most batteries can tolerate over charging at 200 mA fairly well, and it will take several recharges before any damage starts to become apparent.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2011, 08:30:00 pm
content: Voltage on a battery is a crude measure of its capacity, what you really what is watt-hours, or a easier to measure approximate, mAH. If its a rechargeable that isn't holding a charge, an IEC capacity test is the best bet, or a charge-discharge cycle to see if it lives up to its rated mAH [ the Lacrosse doesn't have an IEC test, which the Maha C9000 does.]Digital cameras do not work best with alkaline batteries, I presume are AA or AAA types, because the higher current demand of some functions [ charging flash, auto focus, zoom etc., ] gets hamstrung by the higher internal resistance of AA or AAA alkaline cells.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_battery#Capacity

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2011, 08:40:25 pm
content: Voltage (optionally under load) is about the only measure you have for primary cells, short of tracking voltage and current over time like they do for some Li-ion battery packs.I guess you could measure the voltage at two different currents and use this to estimate the internal resistance, but I'm not sure if the internal resistance versus charge curve is any steeper than the voltage versus charge. Using voltage to estimate remaining capacity of alkaline batteries shouldn't be that bad, the curve is fairly linear, as opposed to some other chemistries.

author: elliott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2011, 12:39:28 am
content: Quote from: alm on November 09, 2011, 05:41:38 pmDoesn't seem to be a problem, it cuts off the same at 200mA as it does at 500mA.Quote from: saturation on November 09, 2011, 08:30:00 pmMy BC-900 does have a test mode.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2011, 12:48:30 am
content: Quote from: elliott on November 10, 2011, 12:39:28 amEffective termination can depend on the specific batteries being charged. Brand new ones, and more commonly old crap ones can give a missing or undetectable termination signal at low charge currents. I have seen many reports of the BC-900 delivering well over 3 Ah to a 2 Ah cell before terminating at 200 mA. If you have good quality cells like eneloops your luck may be better.

author: elliott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2011, 01:19:50 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 10, 2011, 12:48:30 amI heard of problems with earlier ones, but I believe I bought mine after that was corrected. I've got a few hundred charges on it, I think I would have noticed something by now. Considering I still have my first 4 Eneloops in rotation and have always used this charger, it must be fine.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2011, 01:35:10 am
content: Quote from: elliott on November 10, 2011, 01:19:50 amWhat does the charger show for the amount charge supplied when you charge eneloops, out of interest?

author: elliott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2011, 01:44:42 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 10, 2011, 01:35:10 amThey usually peak at 1.51v, I've seen as high as 1.53v, which I assume could come down to room temperature differences.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2011, 02:31:20 am
content: Quote from: elliott on November 10, 2011, 01:44:42 amThat's the voltage--it doesn't tell you much of value. What you need to look at is the charge shown on the display as mAh or Ah. This will start out at zero when you put the battery on charge and will keep climbing until the charger stops.For instance an eneloop AA cell has a capacity of about 2000 mAh. Therefore after the charger finishes the display should show somewhere between 2000 mAh and 2400 mAh typically (between 2.0 Ah and 2.5 Ah). If the number goes over 3.0 Ah it means the charger did not finish charging when it should and it over charged the battery. In the long term this will wear out the batteries and reduce their life.For the best health and peformance of eneloops on the BC-900 the charge rate should be set to 700 mA or 1000 mA. This should give well defined end of charge signal, reduce over charging, and extend the life of the batteries.

author: elliott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2011, 03:06:01 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 10, 2011, 02:31:20 amThat would entirely depend on how far I let them run down before charging. Sometimes I run them down all the way, sometimes I don't. My camera shuts down long before they are totally dead.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2011, 03:14:51 am
content: Quote from: elliott on November 10, 2011, 03:06:01 amThat's entirely OK. If the charger shows over 3 Ah and they were not fully discharged before you charged them there is even more reason to be concerned.

author: elliott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2011, 03:26:12 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 10, 2011, 03:14:51 amI don't believe I've ever seen it go above 2500mAh in the 3 years that I've owned it. I've just put in a set from my flash, which will use them all the way down to 1.0v, I usually don't run them that low because recycle times at full power are annoying. I am running a discharge cycle to get them down as far as I can. Then I'll run a 200mA charge cycle and see what happens. These also happen to be the oldest set of Eneloops I own, I marked them when I bought them so I always keep them in matched sets.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2011, 10:45:06 am
content: Couldn't agree more alm, as always.For the OP, to extend alms comment, for primary cells a best test is to load the 1.5v cells at half mA rating, or ~ 500mA. Most 'battery tester' device are often crude voltmeters that don't draw substantial load. As mV changes represent a larger change in the batteries capacity when the loads are small, a high resolution and accurate DVM down to the mV is needed, even if the measurements are just relative. Here's a sample representation of the slope of the curves relative to mA draw. However, at 500mA the difference is fairly obvious.Quote from: alm on November 09, 2011, 08:40:25 pm

author: maia
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 10, 2011, 01:07:12 pm
content: This thread is very interesting. I always wondered if good battery are worth their money, or if the cheaper ones are better? It looks like that it doesn't make a huge difference and the quality is not foreseeable! Thank you for this useful information.But I think it's funny that the camera did not even start...

author: elliott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2011, 02:46:26 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 10, 2011, 03:14:51 amThe old Eneloops all peaked between 2050mAh and 2100mAh at 200mA after the full discharge.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2011, 03:09:35 pm
content: That sounds about right, I measured my 2-3 years old Eneloops with about the same values when I finaly got my MAHA charger last week.I'm still in the process of analyzing & refreshing all the cells that have accumulated over the years but the Eneloops seem to hold their capacity very well. A few cheap LSD's have lost a lot more of their stated capacity, they are also 2-3 years old.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2011, 04:11:42 pm
content: Quote from: elliott on November 10, 2011, 02:46:26 pmI'm not clear. Is that the mAh measured on discharge, or the mAh measured on charge? It seems like those numbers refer to the discharge, but what we are interested in here is the charge.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2011, 09:00:36 pm
content: Ideally the charge ~ discharge mAH, but in reality the battery may not hold the full charge expected by the mA x hour input that the charger estimates. So, the best measure is a timed discharge at a specific mA.Unless you use a defined standard such as the IEC protocol, discharging a battery at high mA rates reduces the mAH rating of a battery, and at a very low mA rate increases it. Its one reason why the Maha Powerex c9000 use of the IEC protocol makes it more appealing, this procedure provides a standard to compare one battery against another in terms of its mAH capacity.Quote from: IanB on November 10, 2011, 04:11:42 pm

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2011, 09:20:33 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on November 10, 2011, 09:00:36 pmAll true, but the question at hand is, "Does the charger terminate charging reliably when using a 200 mA charge rate?"For that we need to look at the mAh supplied during the charge. For a 2000 mAh eneloop we expect the charge supplied to be in the 2200-2400 mAh range. It would usually be less at high charging rates and more at low charging rates. However, it it went much over 3000 mAh, for example, we would suspect that the charger was not detecting a good termination signal.Although the IEC protocol specifies a 0.1C charge for 16 hours, it is not clear that routinely charging batteries in this way is good for them. On the eneloop datasheet, for example, the performance measurements are obtained using a recommended fast charge of 1C to a -dV of 10 mV (which typically occurs after 1.1 hours). They give no indication that this is unduly hard on the cells.Eneloop data sheet:http://eneloop.com.sg/products/download/Datasheet_-_HR-3UTG.pdf

author: elliott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2011, 11:06:29 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 10, 2011, 04:11:42 pmThose numbers are the charge, the discharge didn't matter because they were already at 1.05v when I started the discharge, I just wanted them to be as low as possible before charging.

author: benemorius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2011, 01:49:43 am
content: Quote from: elliott on November 10, 2011, 11:06:29 pmThat certainly looks like proper termination for aged eneloop cells as you expected, though they don't look quite as good as new. Their discharge capacity will be a few hundred mAh below that, and I'm certain they came out of the factory with at least their rated 2000mAh capacity. You might be interested in trying one or more IEC cycles on them to bring the capacity back up, though I don't think there's any way to do .1C for 16 hours on a bc-900, unless termination fails of course.Ian makes a point that is worth everyone taking note of, though. Low charge rate termination failures are common for old cells, as well as on the first charge of new cells, and even on otherwise perfectly healthy cells. This is true regardless of the charger. It is well known that -dV termination is not fully reliable for NiMH at low charge rates and it is all but inevitable that a cell will eventually begin failing to terminate once it ages sufficiently. Don't be surprised if that day is in the far future for your eneloops, though. I've seen a number of brand spanking new eneloop AAs terminate properly at 200mA. They're nice cells indeed. Termination failures are actually much less common for healthy cells than some people realize. Even still, most consider that it is better to charge at >=.5C than to risk even one missed termination. Healthy cells honestly won't get that much warmer at .5C than at .1C, and there are plenty of knowledgeable people happily charging away at 1C.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2011, 04:07:06 pm
content: If the battery doesn't trip the dv/dt algorithm, the charger has 2 backups: a raw timer based charge and a temperature cutoff sensor.I don't think the IEC protocol was designed for charging, but more for characterization or 'reconditioning'.I've charged eneloop AA at 1C and while the cells do not get above 45oC with a C9000 [ it has gotten unacceptably hot on the Lacrosse charger which I no longer use at high current] it stays closer to 35oC at 0.5C. Also, I consistently get more mAH on slower charge rates.However, its good to know eneloop will unlikely suffer reduced calendar life charged at 1C.Quote from: IanB on November 10, 2011, 09:20:33 pm

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2011, 08:36:35 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on November 11, 2011, 04:07:06 pmCharge or discharge?