LED Makers' Old Paper Catalogs Research/Scan Help Wanted - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Scotophor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2015, 07:00:08 am
content: Hi,This is a request for review, and perhaps scans, of the Light Bars sections of printed catalogs from Kingbright, SunLED and possibly other LED manufacturers from 1980 or earlier through 2002; pre-1991 preferred. I'm looking for the LED light bar shown as "Version 1" in the image attached, butnot"Version 2" which is similar but smaller, and is currently offered by several makers. In Kingbright and SunLED .PDF catalogs from 2003 and later available online, Light Bars are usually combined with Bar Graph Arrays. In some issues Bar Graph Arrays & Light Bars are in their own catalog, sometimes they have their own chapter of a master catalog, and sometimes in master catalogs they're in subsections of Through-Hole Displays (numeric, alphanumeric & dot matrix). I hope this info makes it easier for anyone who has access to any of the catalogs I'm interested in to find the section I want to know about.Background:I'm trying to discover the manufacturer and their part number of an old LED light bar that I believe was probably made by Kingbright or SunLED. The reason I think this is, a retail distributor who packaged the LED I'm interested in, Cal West Supply Inc., later replaced that LED with a similar but smaller one, Kingbright # L-835/2YDT (= SunLED # XEUY22D), without changing their retail package part number (CP-60). This later version part is a rectangular light bar with two dice spaced 6 mm center-to-center, 5 mm X 10 mm in frontal dimension. The original version's dice were 7 mm center-to-center, and it was 7 mm X 14 mm in frontal dimension. I believe that a manufacturer such as Kingbright would not change a part's size so significantly without changing their part number. To confirm or refute my hunch, I seek knowledge of old Kingbright and SunLED catalogs, to try to find the part number of the original, larger version. Kingbright was established in 1980 and SunLED was established in 1989. As of early 2005, the Cal West Supply/CAL-PAK LED catalog consisted of over 60 LED styles, of which two were SunLED parts and the remainder were Kingbright. Even the two styles Cal West claimed to have sourced from SunLED, had Kingbright equivalents. The part I'm looking for was first made some time before 1991, and was apparently discontinued some time before 2003. I'm hoping that knowing the part number and manufacturer, if they differ from the modern smaller version, might help me to locate more of these parts.Other possible makers, IMO less likely to have made the part I'm interested in:LEDtronics, Litronix, Lumex, Wintech, Dialight, Everlight, Toshiba, Nichia, Stanley, Avago/Hewlett-Packard, Lite-On, General Instrument, Monsanto, Rohm, Siemens, Fairchild, VishayThanks in advance for your help!EDIT:I will keep this post updated with catalogs that have been checked.The list of successes--none yet!... and failures--AEG Telefunken Optoelectronic Devices Data Book, 1981/82Everlight Optoelectronic Components Catalogues, all editions from 2011-2015Fairchild Full Line Condensed Catalog, 1975, 1978Fairchild Optoelectronics Data Books, 1978, 1980Fairchild Semiconductor catalog, Optoelectronics section, 2004Ferranti Semiconductors Optoelectronic Devices, 1981General Electric Semiconductor Data Handbook, 1977General Instrument (Monsanto) Catalogs of Optoelectronic Products, 1980, 1985Hewlett-Packard Solid State Devices, 1969 (no LEDs)Hewlett-Packard Solid State Display and Optoelectronics Designers Catalog, 1973Hewlett-Packard Optoelectronics Designers Catalogs, 1977-1980, 1983, 1986, 1988-1989, 1991-1992, 1993, 1996Kingbright Catalogs, Light Bars & Bar Graph Arrays, all editions from 2003-2015Litronix (Siemens) Optoelectronics Catalog, 1982Monsanto Solid State Optoelectronics Catalog, 1977Motorola Optoelectronic Data Book, 1981-82 (no LEDs)Motorola Optoelectronics Device Data DL118 Rev 5 - 1995 (no LEDs)National Semiconductor Optoelectronics Handbook, 1979NEC Optoelectronic Products, 1985ROHM LED data book (Pub. No. 95-041.1), 1995Siemens Optoelectronics Semiconductors Data Book, 1975/76SunLED Corporation Optoelectronic Components, 2011-2013SunLED Optoelectronic Components Catalogue, 2014-2015Texas Instruments Optoelectronics Data Book, 1983Toshiba Optoelectronic Semiconductors, 1984TRW Optron Products Optoelectronics Data Book, 1982 (no LEDs)Xciton Optoelectronics, 1978, 1983

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2015, 09:03:24 am
content: Noone is likely to scan and post 20-30 pages of bulk data unless they are obsessive about LEDs, so you'll just have to trust those of us who have a databook handy to check for likely candidates. If anyone finds a good one, a one page photo/scan doesn't take long to do/post.Nothing matching in 1995 ROHM LED data book (Pub. No. 95-041.1). ROHM call the lightbar section "LED flat displays".Note the diffuser layer at the face of the CP-60 encapsulation.

author: Scotophor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2015, 09:59:04 am
content: Thank you for checking!The Kingbright catalogs' light bars sections are typically much smaller than that, for example the 2003-2004 Light Bars and Bar Graph Arrays chapter is only three pages of light bars and one page of bar graphs -- this is a sales catalog, not a comprehensive data book. You're right, of course, that I don't need scans of everything, so I edited my first post. I'll have to trust anyone who has something to contribute to make the appropriate decision.Thanks, also, for identifying the alternative terminology found in the Rohm catalog, it might ease the search for some folks.Yes I did notice the optical diffusion layer at the front of both versions of the CP-60 in the image I posted (made from my own photo), but it didn't seem important to answer my question. In fact I would be just as happy to get the part number for, or stock of, undiffused parts of the same specs. The diffusion layer isn't as visible in the image of version 2 because in that part its bottom transition is indistinct... it sort of "fades out" over about half the height of the package from fully diffuse at the top surface to fully transparent midway down.

author: Scotophor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2015, 02:11:14 am
content: I found nothing matching my request in:Litronix (Siemens) Optoelectronics Catalog, 1982General Instrument (Monsanto) Catalog of Optoelectronics Products, 1980Hewlett-Packard Optoelectronics Designers Catalog, 1980

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2015, 02:47:48 am
content: Other than where I pointed you back in November I got nothing:Quote from: miguelvp on November 14, 2014, 05:37:24 am

author: Scotophor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2015, 03:50:12 am
content: Thanks for trying, miguelvp. However, those all appear to be references to the current Kingbright product, version 2 in my image in post #1. I'm looking for version 1, which may or may not have been made by Kingbright, and was apparently discontinued over 10 years ago. Even if it was made by Kingbright, I don't know whether it used the same L-835/2YDT part number. I strongly suspect that it did not, because if Kingbright had prior manufacturing customers, the change in size and lead spacing could have severe repercussions.Since Kingbright's digital catalog offerings currently available online begin with the 2003-2004 edition, and I seek info from earlier editions, that's why I asked for review ofpapercatalogs rather than internet searches. I'm currently doing online searches myself for digital versions of pre-2003 catalogs from other LED makers, but I really don't expect to have any positive results -- there are just too few old catalogs available online; I've only found four so far that are within my target parameters.

author: Scotophor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2015, 09:02:41 am
content: More rejects:Fairchild Optoelectronics Data Book, 1978Fairchild Semiconductor catalog, Optoelectronics section, 2004General Instrument (Monsanto) Catalog of Optoelectronics Products, 1985Hewlett-Packard Solid State Display and Optoelectronics Designers Catalog, 1973Hewlett-Packard Optoelectronics Designers Catalog, 1978Motorola Optoelectronics Device Data DL118 Rev 5 - 1995 (no LEDs)National Semiconductor Optoelectronics Handbook, 1979NEC Optoelectronic Products, 1985Texas Instruments Optoelectronics Data Book, 1983TRW Optron Products Optoelectronics Data Book, 1982 (no LEDs)

author: RickBrant
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2015, 02:29:54 pm
content: So this thing is what? Just two LEDs in a common diffuser package? And it has to be the exact size shown in the first example, or you're not interested?

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2015, 02:46:22 pm
content: Have you tried actually asking Kingbright about it?

author: Scotophor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2015, 10:10:37 pm
content: Quote from: RickBrant on June 17, 2015, 02:29:54 pmYes, and yes. They were used to make a prop from a sci-fi TV show that I want to replicate, so appearance is everything. The LEDs were fully exposed, and the prop was shown from many angles and occasionally in close-up, so substituting those LEDs with something else isn't likely to be satisfactory.Quote from: amyk on June 17, 2015, 02:46:22 pmYes. They didn't reply.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2015, 11:09:45 pm
content: Quote from: Scotophor on June 17, 2015, 10:10:37 pmI don't suppose you'd care to post a link to pics/video? I'm curious.Have you considered making replica LEDs? Do you want to make just one of the replica props, or mass produce them?I suspect even if you do find the original manufacturer & part number, you won't find any magical 'new in box' supply source. That's a long time ago,and a part that probably was never made in large quantities.

author: Scotophor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 03:17:20 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 17, 2015, 11:09:45 pmI have considered making replica LEDs and am slowly working toward doing so. The number of prop replicas I make will depend upon my degree of success at obtaining or replicating these LEDs and perhaps a few other LED styles used in the prop. By my count there are six styles of LED that were used to make the props: two which are still reasonably readily available, three which are still available in slightly different form, and these, which are practically nonexistent. I doubt that even given a limitless supply of the correct LEDs that I would make more than a couple dozen replicas of the prop. Each prop needs approximately 54-70 LEDs, depending on the exact version of the prop and styles of LEDs used.Regarding a 'magical' supply source, I know it's a shot in the dark, but there are many suppliers online who hoard obsolete electronic components. Most have little or no more info about their inventory other than part numbers, so finding an obscure part without that info is an exercise in futility. Maybe finding this part will be impossible even with the part number, but if no one ever tries, we'll never know, right?Reference images attached. First is a photo of one of the "hero" copies of the prop taken during the show's run. Second is a screenshot from the show. Sharp-eyed viewers may notice slight differences; they are not the same prop.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 03:30:51 am
content: Intriguing. I have no idea what show that was, even considering your image file names.But, in those pics I don't see any of the LEDs you showed? None of the LED blocks have that diffuser layer shown in your earlier pic - or did I miss it?It all looks like leds embedded in tinted clear epoxy, with lots of thin enamelled wire hand-done interconnects. And bits of colored perspex. Some of the LED blocks you are going to have to make by casting anyway, right?Seeing long ago conceptions of what future-tech would look like, is always sidesplitting.Can you imaging trying to shove that thing in your back pocket? Though I suppose at least it wouldn't break in half if you sat on it. Take note, Apple.

author: Scotophor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 03:48:34 am
content: The show is Quantum Leap. This prop appeared several episodes in to season 3, and was then used through the series finale.The optical diffusion layer was most likely ground and polished off the LEDs by the prop makers, though there is a possibility that non-diffused versions of some of the LEDs may have been available. The original props did not use any scratch-built cast LEDs; all were commercially produced. I have at least one example of every style.The character that carried this prop usually carried it in an outside or inside coat pocket. Funny you should mention its durability... actor Dean Stockwell was notorious among the show's crew for breaking the props! In fact, there is some evidence that one particular part of these props was either broken off and left unrepaired, or deliberately omitted due to fragility, on some versions of the prop. Look at the blue perspex/acrylic square at the top left in both the above photos. Adjacent to its lower left corner is a small square clear area. Early versions of the prop had what appears to behalfof one of these CP-60 LEDs in that location (not because Dean broke the LED, but because the prop makers chose to modify it). However, most closeups in the show and the one surviving example of the original props that has been exhibited publicly, show no LED there, but a routed channel that would have contained the wiring for one.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 04:20:22 am
content: I did find the Kingbright datasheet of the L-835/2YDT LED, and it seems to be the source of the dimensional drawing of the 5mm x 10mm LED.Where did the dimensional drawing of the 7mm x 14mm LED come from? The line style is the same as the "new" LED. Any documents associated with that?I looked up the known Kingbright part number up in a parametric database, and readily found it. I couldn't find anything that matched the larger one.

author: Scotophor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 04:29:11 am
content: I hacked the L-835/2YDT drawing to match the measurements of the larger part. So no, I don't have any real documents for it.BTW, I found a few more scanned catalogs online to reject:Monsanto Solid State Optoelectronics Catalog, 1977Xciton Optoelectronics, 1978, 1983

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 03:07:30 am
content: Quote from: Scotophor on June 18, 2015, 03:48:34 amThat explains why I didn't recognize it. Have never seen Quantum Leap.QuoteSo, even if you find stock of the originals, you're going to have to hand modify each LED?I think it would be easier to make them from scratch. Standard small 3mm LEDs in clear bodies, held in place in a mold while pouring in tinted epoxy. Make the molds using flexible silicone rubber poured around original LEDs to get the size and surface finish. If you want to make more than a couple it would be vastly simpler to do the back wiring with a PCB, either flexible or standard, if that can be possible without making it look non-authentic. Maybe the PCB could have two-color silkscreen artwork on the front, to make it look like the hand wired stuff?

author: Scotophor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 03:31:57 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 19, 2015, 03:07:30 amEasier? I don't think so, I've done a bit of mold making and casting. A minute or two on a disc or belt sander (using an appropriate progression of grits) per LED would be sufficient for grinding and polishing. Another possibility, which was probably done by the original prop makers, would be to assemble the prop first, then grind & polish the whole thing as one unit. This might explain why some of the other LEDs in the original props retain their diffusion layers; they're shorter!You're very close to my ideas about casting replica LEDs, though. One difference is that I would start with larger LEDs, due to the large lead frame size of the originals. I'd also use LEDs that have epoxy tints as close as possible to the originals, which are quite pale. Then I'd grind their lenses down as small as practical (polishing not needed), so as to minimize visibility of any artifacts from tint, diffusion and/or refractive index mismatches.Quote from: TerraHertz on June 19, 2015, 03:07:30 amTake another look at the photo with the blue background. The prop is largely transparent. I don't know where to get transparent PCBs made.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 12:00:20 pm
content: The... diffusion layer? I don't think polishing that off a LED would leave it functional.

author: ResR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 03:55:11 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on June 19, 2015, 12:00:20 pmGood eye, mate. If you grind the LED that far, then it doesn't work indeed.You can polish the epoxy case as far as it doesn't damage the bonding wires. I have filed the 5mm LED to 3x3mm square long time ago and it worked fine after that abuse.

author: Scotophor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 12:48:12 am
content: Amyk, look at the "Version 1" photo in my image in post #1 and imagine it as a slice of cake. The lighter-colored "frosting" is the diffusion layer. Notice how much clear yellow epoxy there is between that layer and the metal leadframes, where the actual light-emitting chips are. There are extremely thin bonding wires that connect the tops of the chips to the "post" leadframes, but they only loop up to about 1-2 mm above the reflectors. So one can carefully grind down the top of any rigidly-encapsulated LED as far as ~3 mm above the reflector and it will continue to light. What the "beam pattern" will look like after such abuse is another story, but for this prop the pattern is not important; it was only meant to show points of light.Another batch of catalog rejects:Fairchild Full Line Condensed Catalog, 1975, 1978Fairchild Optoelectronics Data Book, 1980Hewlett-Packard Solid State Devices, 1969 (no LEDs)Hewlett-Packard Optoelectronics Designers Catalogs, 1977, 1979, 1983

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 01:11:24 pm
content: Are you sure the dimensions areexactly7mm x 14mm? Kingbright has7.5x 14 ones.Quote from: Scotophor on June 20, 2015, 12:48:12 amThat is the encapsulation; usually "diffusion layer" means something on the IC die itself.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 01:33:27 pm
content: There is a considerable difference between an optical diffuser layer in the encapsulation and a diffusion layer that is part of semiconductor die!

author: Scotophor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 09:27:20 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on June 20, 2015, 01:11:24 pmDo they look like the photo of Version 1 in post #1? No, they don't.Quote from: amyk on June 20, 2015, 01:11:24 pmAn LED is not an IC. As Ian.M wrote, there's a difference between optical diffusion and semiconductor diffusion. Sorry I confused you by using a phrase with more than one meaning. Actually, to continue my analogy, the entire slice of "cake" including the frosting, but not including the metal and light-emitting bits inside, comprises the encapsulation. For these LEDs the (optical) diffusion layer is onlypartof the encapsulation. Most "diffused" LEDs have the diffusion uniformly incorporated throughout the entire encapsulation and lack any distinct "layer", so that may be another reason you were confused.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 10:02:35 am
content: Quote from: Scotophor on June 19, 2015, 03:31:57 amBut, with casting, and a sensible jig you can do dozens at once, no further work required.Anyway, no point arguing that. You're either going to find a supplier, or be forced to make them yourself. Good luck!Have you considered going someplace like Shenzen, and seeing if you can find a factory to make you a few hundred custom LEDs?QuoteOh yeah, now I notice that. Man, you sure picked something that's going to be a pain in the arse to reproduce, if you want exact reproduction.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 10:29:34 am
content: Translucent PCB is very easy, you just have a single layer of GRP mat, copper and no silkscreen and no soldermask. The single layer will have to be a whole sheet of board, so the manufacturer will charge you for it ( and it would be best to cover the whole board with copies of the track, so you can select those that work and have spares) but it is just the single inner layer of a multilayer stack, so is off the shelf.You could even do it at home provided you have a milling machine ( and a carbide end mill you are going to destroy) and wet mill the finished single side board down to the right thickness. You probably will want to stick the board down to a acrylic sheet before though, so it has some support when you are milling. Acrylic will be part of the finished unit in any case, so all you have to do is back drill the LED solder points after thinning and solder the leads in, then fill with acrylic resin after cleaning and testing.You can see in the OP that they were mounted in a clear acrylic sheet in press fit holes, then hand soldered with probably 28SWG enamelled wire, which was then potted with the whole unit.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 01:03:27 pm
content: Quote from: Scotophor on June 20, 2015, 09:27:20 pmI'm saying that if you're looking for 7x14, you may be looking for the wrong size. The fact that they make a 7.5x14 size suggests that they might've made them in the style you're looking for.

author: Scotophor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 06:12:59 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 21, 2015, 10:02:35 amYes, and I've worked out the jig design already and bought the bits to make it from. Now I'm taking a couple of classes at my local makerspace to learn to use a milling machine and perhaps some of the other machines there, so I can make master pattern models from which to pour the silicone mold.There are several reasons why I don't want to use the actual LEDs as pattern models. Firstly, they have a slight draft angle so that when several are stacked up side-by-side (like the five green ones at the lower left of the prop), they don't want to fit together tightly and straight at the same time; they describe a shallow curve. I'm not sure how the prop makers dealt with that issue. I suspect that they had to "square up" several of the LEDs on a sander before assembly. I'll start with pattern models that are already "square". Secondly, with the materials I'll be using, silicone shrinks 1-2% when making a mold, then the resin shrinks a further 1-2% when it's cast. So, I'll start by making pattern models about 3% oversized.Quote from: TerraHertz on June 21, 2015, 10:02:35 amI haven't actually tried, but as I understand it LED manufacturers generally won't even give you the time of day for less than 10,000 pieces (or the equivalent cost thereof). I believe the market for replicas of this prop is not quite that big, at the price I would have to get.

author: Scotophor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 06:23:07 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on June 21, 2015, 10:29:34 amWhere can you see all that? As I understand it, the basic chassis of the prop is a milled-out block of clear acrylic with openings for battery and circuit boards, and channels for wiring. LEDs are glued in clusters to the top of the main block, straddling the wiring channels. Top and bottom covers are assembled from tiles of various colors cut from 1/8 and a few 1/4 inch thick acrylic sheets, shaped to fit around and between the LED clusters. The tiles are mostly glued together edge-to-edge (another reason the props were fragile). There are a few portions of the covers where LEDs and perhaps some colored tiles are laminated onto 1/16 inch thick clear acrylic, but I'm fairly certain that the entire covers were not made that way. Small screws hold the covers on. Nothing is "potted".

author: Scotophor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 10:17:08 am
content: Quote from: amyk on June 21, 2015, 01:03:27 pmTo answer your question, yes the examples I have are exactly 14.0 mm x 7.0 mm within a reasonable tolerance, roughly +/- 0.05 mm. I imagine the spec'd tolerance was probably looser than that but probably not as loose as +/- 0.5 mm.More catalog rejects:AEG Telefunken Optoelectronic Devices Data Book, 1981/82Ferranti Semiconductors Optoelectronic Devices, 1981General Electric Semiconductor Data Handbook, 1977Hewlett-Packard Optoelectronics Designers Catalogs, 1986, 1988-1989, 1991-1992, 1993, 1996Motorola Optoelectronic Data Book, 1981-82 (no LEDs)Siemens Optoelectronics Semiconductors Data Book, 1975/76Toshiba Optoelectronic Semiconductors, 1984