nuke mars? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 06:30:40 pm
content: https://science.slashdot.org/story/19/08/17/2032255/elon-musk-begins-selling-25-nuke-mars-t-shirtsSo we can put a cancer center on mars when we colonize it in the future?It's so dirty compared to a reactor.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 07:39:28 pm
content: We're really ready to blow up the whole universe if that could help our economic growth.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 07:41:36 pm
content: Why did I know this is a coppercone thread before seeing who the author is?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 07:41:58 pm
content: How about letting mankind finish off the job of fucking up 1 planet before we start ruining another.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 07:43:36 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on August 18, 2019, 07:41:58 pmDon't worry, we'll do both.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 07:45:12 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 18, 2019, 07:41:36 pm

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 08:31:39 pm
content: QuoteWhy do people think we can colonize marsIt has almost no atmosphere. Not enough for humans to survive.The magnetic core has gone, letting the solar winds further strip the planet of atmosphere.The temperature is too cold for humans.There is not enough water on the planet to survive on.The gravity is only 0.3G meaning anyone living on the planet will loose bone mass. Anyone growing up on the planet will be too weak to ever come to earth.It would be easier to build giant space stations like the 2001 or Elysium than it would to try and live on Mars

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 08:35:00 pm
content: Quote from: MosherIV on August 18, 2019, 08:31:39 pmPeople wouldn't likely be expected to travel back and forth. It's not as if the South Pole is that much more hospitable. A bit but not a lot. You'll die within minutes without adequate protection.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 08:38:24 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on August 18, 2019, 07:41:58 pmAs if there is anything to ruin. IMHO there is nothing wrong in nuking it as long as it does the job.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 09:16:06 pm
content: I think all the effort going towards colonizing Mars should go towards trying to save this planet instead. They have some basic tech out there to strip CO2 from the air. Wonder how much it would cost to further research it and implement it at large scale, compared to the total cost of what would go towards colonizing Mars.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 09:51:50 pm
content: I do not disagree about spending the money to save our planet first.However, why do people jump to the conclusion that technology is the answer.We already have things that will suck CO2 out of the atmosphere and safely lock it up long term.It is called a tree !!!Stop wasting money researching useless technology and spend it on actully reducing CO2.Both digging it up and releasing it and on natural ways to lock it back up.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 10:04:10 pm
content: Yeah reducing CO2 should be a big priority too of course. Moving towards green energy etc. All this needs to happen faster. Need to put more money into storage tech research as well. If we can find a battery or other storage tech that is higher density than fossil fuel it would be a good start. Ex: we should make even jumbo jets electric but need better storage tech for that. If you look at a map of all the planes in the sky that's a crazy amount of pollution. Big ships are bad too.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 11:48:40 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on August 18, 2019, 10:04:10 pmThat's called hydrogen, unfortunately the fuel cells to make use of it are really expensive right now. Biofuels are probably as close as we get for a drop in replacement for fossil fuels.As for storage, I think thermal storage is one to really invest in. Far cheaper than batteries and no inherent wearout mechanism, plus very safe and entire capacity can be used without affecting lifetime. Energy density isn't all that important for most stationary applications, but even then, ice based storage for air conditioning is not too far behind lithium batteries (after accounting for the COP of the heat pump) and ahead of lead acid. Make that "on par" and "way ahead" after accounting for the derating needed to get a good lifetime with batteries.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 12:09:28 am
content: What I find funny in all of this is NASA for years had taken the position of exploring Mars but at the same time not trying to "dirty" the planet with bacteria and micro-organisms on their own exploration rovers, because they don't want to alter the measurements their machines do on the planet:http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2014/05/21/curiosity-rover-may-have-carried-bacterial-life-to-mars/https://www.space.com/13783-nasa-msl-curiosity-mars-rover-planetary-protection.htmlQuoteAnd now this crazy rich guy wants to nuke a planet in the assumption it will work, changing the atmosphere of the planet with radioactive particles...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 12:20:42 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on August 19, 2019, 12:09:28 amIt's a way how to free CO2. So what if there are radioactive particles as a byproduct. With current situation on Mars nuking poles will make barely any difference to total amount of radiation you will be exposed to. Also by the time Mars will be terraformed, vast majority of radionucleides will decay anyway.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 12:32:11 am
content: We just need to send Arnie to find this....

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 12:36:58 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on August 18, 2019, 06:30:40 pmYou mean like we did here? Not much rise in the cancer rate after all those nukes..

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 12:56:06 am
content: Quote from: wraper on August 19, 2019, 12:20:42 amOkay, but now imagine the following: Let's say that there is microorganisms that live in the ice available in the poles, organisms that are still to be discovered and that aren't like anything we ever saw or study on Earth.Now you nuke the planet to release the CO2. Radiation if I remember also alters the DNA structure, so you are basically altering the DNA of said organisms, causing mutations not made by evolution of species but by external hand. Is that what NASA really want, to analyse mutations on organisms made by us or to analyse the organisms as they are in reality after millions of years of evolution? What if said organisms have the replies to some of our problems, like a cure to our most deadly diseases?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 01:02:30 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on August 19, 2019, 12:56:06 amDo you have your tinfoil hat ready for use? That stuff happens on Earth.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_breedinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_irradiationQuoteMore like they possibly can kill us.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 01:15:21 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on August 19, 2019, 12:56:06 amLet's do this first:

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 01:24:28 am
content: Quote from: MosherIV on August 18, 2019, 09:51:50 pmA famous brazilian photographer and her wife managed to plant 2M trees in 12 years on a farm in Minas Gerais state in Brasil. ONE Couple!!!https://allthatsinteresting.com/sebastiao-salgado-forestA bit more about the photographer's history:https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/sebastiao-salgado-forest-trees-180956620/

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 01:34:07 am
content: Quote from: wraper on August 19, 2019, 01:02:30 amI know this kind of thing happens on earth, we live here, we produce stuff to increase food yields and create new breeds of vegetables to increase their resistance to diseases. But that's here, on Earth were we live, not in a "virgin" place like Mars, that didn't had contact with any exterior life (if aliens don't exist) until we started landing explorers on Mars. But whatever, I can't control anything and alone I can't change anything.I'm not a scientist, I just think that we should preserve things the way they are for the most time we can. We changed the Earth, we created global warming because of our development, and we are depleting the resources of our planet in a scale that increased to us using 1.7 earths of resources by the end of the year compared with 1970:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Overshoot_DayShould we do the same to another planet just for the sake of our own survival or should we change our approach to everything and change ourselves. I'm not perfect, I'm for sure also someone who have a fault on that, by my own usage of resources each and everyday and never really look at it, so probably I'm a hypocrite at the same level.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 01:44:26 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on August 19, 2019, 01:34:07 amYes!There is no mammalian life there, so the moral argument comes down to what we do with a frozen rock, or maybe some potential microbes if we find any.Of course we'd do whatever we have to there if it meant the survival of the human race.In fact one moral argument is that we must do whatever we can to survive, due to the seeming rarity of intelligent life in the universe.https://youtu.be/1vmnp7ghGPk?t=62

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 01:54:14 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2019, 01:44:26 amDave, yes we should survive true, probably my wording was not the right way I wanted to put. Let me try again:Quote

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 02:12:42 am
content: uh, you know how many people got cancer from nuclear testing?https://qz.com/1163140/us-nuclear-tests-killed-american-civilians-on-a-scale-comparable-to-hiroshima-and-nagasaki/with radioactive fallout responsible for 340,000 to 690,000 American deaths from 1951 to 1973.I mean, why risk some heavy elements getting left behind? Its a pristine planet.trace contamination will leave bits of long lived isotopes where some military coaxed scientist will say 'its a safe level'... why let those assholes on mars?

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 02:27:39 am
content: Don't forget there isn't enough fissile material on the planet to make enough weapons to "destroy Earth", let alone enough for terraforming Mars. Its another Elon troll click-bait thing - and people are buying it

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 03:36:06 am
content: Yeah I don't think he's actually serious, he's probably just humouring the idea for sake of discussion.Imagine the risk of launching a rocket with a nuclear bomb big enough to affect another planet. That risk alone would be too big if the launch went wrong.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 04:18:49 am
content: you can theoretically assemble it outside of mars with robots with a limited range but still

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 05:12:27 am
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on August 19, 2019, 02:27:39 amThe idea is to melt and throw up a bunch of ice in the polar regions and when it spreads the extra stuff in the atmosphere does the rest using areallybig thermonuclear bomb called the sun.It's not about the energy in the actual weapon directly heating the planet.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 05:14:57 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on August 19, 2019, 03:36:06 amIf something goes wrong at launch the nuke doesn't go critical.It's insanely hard to make a thermonuclear nuke deliver it's design yield.When the Damascus silo nuke exploded they found the warhead hundreds of feet away intact.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 05:49:01 am
content: why would you build it here, if you are building it to colonize mars you can spend the money to assemble it in space without reach to earth

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 06:51:56 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on August 19, 2019, 05:49:01 amIt doesn't matter if you assemble it here, the impact if it explodes on take-off would be the same regardless (i.e. it's trivial to ensure it can't go critical)

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 07:20:40 am
content: QuoteQuoteIf you are going to build stuff in space - why would you both doing it just to nuke another planet that is no suitable for human habitation.Just build space stationS to live in.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 08:21:49 am
content: Quote from: MosherIV on August 19, 2019, 07:20:40 amThe whole point is about terraforming a planet over the long term, which in theory is possible.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 11:31:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2019, 01:44:26 amThat's hardly an argument is we're the ones driving our own planet off the cliff. Not to mention the moral implications of destroying the only other life we'd know.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 11:42:33 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 19, 2019, 11:31:10 amSo, let ourselves become extinct because of guilt?You go first Indy...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 11:54:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2019, 11:42:33 amIf we're that special I'm sure we can figure out how to save our own planet.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 12:22:37 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 19, 2019, 11:54:10 amThat's the Neil Tyson argument against Mars colonisation. And of course we are going to (have to) do that as well, because even if we can terraform Mars, even after hundreds of years we still won't be close to the modern civilisation infrastructure we have here on earth. For countless generations to come, the long term survival of any Mars colony will be reliant upon Earth resupply.(Elon interjects)https://youtu.be/GFGJ9H0430M?t=183

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 12:29:52 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2019, 12:22:37 pmI'm not too familiar with Tyson's positions and arguments but it's obvious that Earth is vastly more suitable for human life even if we thoroughly ruin it. If we can make Mars work we can bring Earth back from wherever we brought it. It's essentially the light version of terraforming.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 12:32:30 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 19, 2019, 11:54:10 amI have no empathy towards microbes.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 12:44:34 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 19, 2019, 12:32:30 pmA lack of empathy towards "lesser" life forms is a significant part of why we're in the mess we're in. Of course we'd also set a dangerous precedent. If there does happen to be anything more intelligent out there or even on our own planet we'd be morally obliged to make way or even eliminate ourselves.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 01:02:36 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 19, 2019, 12:44:34 pmOK, if you are not hypocrite then you should feel never-ending guilt because your immune system endlessly kills them. Or when you simply boil water.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 01:38:37 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 19, 2019, 01:02:36 pmOnly if people who won't eat a black rhino but will eat a cow are hypocrites.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 02:49:17 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2019, 05:12:27 amI thought it was to release the locked up CO2 to thicken the atmosphere, then millennia later, allow the temperature to rise due to greenhouse effect. Temperature isn't really the problem, the pressure is. its a fairly old idea that I imagine was dreamt up in the 50's, back when "nuclear" was the solution to everything. It is still a massive effort, nukes were mentioned because it gets peoples attention, and people generally believe them to be more powerful than they are. Also, on Earth the greenhouse effect isn't just about CO2, there are numerous feedbacks both positive and negative that we haven't fully worked out, so on Mars there may be unforeseen mechanisms that actually work against it.I'm sure someone can run the numbers, but to get Mars' atmosphere to even 20% of Earths pressure (currently at about 0.6%) requires A LOT of gas. It ain't Total-Recall, and I'm surprised peopled people aren't taking this as a joke. He's becoming like a "techno Trump" - throwing out bizarre ideas, and when a small group of people validate him, it makes him believe its not completely ridiculous, "hey, I'm just exploring ideas!".

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 03:37:22 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 19, 2019, 12:32:30 pmYou'd be dead without the microbes that live in your mouth, skin, intestines...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 04:03:14 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on August 19, 2019, 03:37:22 pmSo what? There are way more microbes which try to kill you than those from which organism have some use. Do you have empathy towards dish and fork? They help to consume food.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 06:07:10 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 19, 2019, 04:03:14 pmStrange way to renegade one's own existence.Microbes are vital. Dishes and forks are not.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 06:12:08 pm
content: QuoteYes, ok, you want to try and terrform a planet.However, terforming Mars is pointless.Even if you succeed in thickning the atmosphere and warming it up and get enough water on the surface.The problem is that Mars no longer has a magnetic feild to protect the atmosphere.The atmosphere is literally being blown away by the Sun's solar wind because there is no magnetic feild to deflect the solar wind!If you do terraform Mars, it is only a matter of time before all the work is undone and the atmosphere is thined by the solar wind.Did I mention that Mars only has 0.3G ?Do you really want to create generations that are too weak to stand up in a 1G environment?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 06:20:00 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 19, 2019, 04:03:14 pmThat claim requires a source. Show us the numbers please. It's not a matter of helping, it's a matter of being dead tomorrow without them. About 2 kg of your body weight is microbes which you can not live without.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 06:31:58 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 19, 2019, 06:20:00 pmMr. Scram, I think he is a... a... a...MICROBIST!(There! It had to be said!)

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 07:08:05 pm
content: Quote from: MosherIV on August 18, 2019, 08:31:39 pmWorst than just mere lack of atmosphere. Lacking magnetic core, there is nothing stopping cosmic ray which also can cook you.Forget the tiny nano amount of radiation from bombs, just the cosmic rays, which is radiation, will cook you many times over. Add to that the solar winds, micro-meteor, extreme cold... Radiation from a dozen bombs or so really is the last thing you need to worry about living on Mars. The radiation from the solar winds and cosmic rays just from the trip there would probably be enough you cause severe damage to your health getting there, let alone living there.Below is a link to an analysis/study atDuke University on how radiation form Cosmic Rays and Solar Winds may harm you just on the way to Mars- mind you, that is just the trip alone and not extended stay. In this analysis, it also shows on a pie chart how small our on-earth "bomb caused" radiation is. It is unclear if the "bomb cause" radiation is in the 1% "Other" or in the 8% of total radiation form Terrestrial Sources (Uranium & Thorium). Uranium & Thorium are natural. So that 8% could be natural and from dragging it up inmakingbombs & nuclear plants - they arefuel for the bomb or power plant, and not productof using the fuel. Thorium is in every brick we make and in many other things made from earth. So, the bomb/power-plant resulting emission fromconsumingUranium and Thorium likely would included in the 1% "Other" instead of the 8% Terrestrial Sources. But even at 8%, it is the same as our muted (by magnetic core) Cosmic Rays, 1/2 that of medical, and just 1/7 of what we got from our natural Radon.Mission to Mars- Encounter with Radiation, Duke Univ:https://sites.duke.edu/missiontomars/the-mission/Bomb-causednuclear wintermay be a good thing, not for Mars but for Venus. If we can keep create the nuclear winter "blanket" Venus from the Sun and keep at it for a long long while, it just may cool down enough for some terraforming to finish the work

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 07:22:23 pm
content: Yes, Venus is a better match to our Earth and therefore a better candidate for teraforming.It is just harder to do.However, the fact that it is closer to the Sun may mean that it is still too hot to be useful.People seem to be fixsated on Mars becuase they think it can be easily teraformed.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 07:46:31 pm
content: We should do both. Mars is the last refuge. Come real global warming (Sun going red giant), Venus is no help. Venus will be part of the Sun. Mars will be the only place for humans if we are still around.Before red giant, Venus being closer to the sun is no problem. Since by the time we can cool down Venus from the current over 400 C surface temperature to do further terraforming, we already know how to cool down the planet. So until the red giant phase, Venus could be a nice place... Blue sky, rain only as much as we need, plenty of Solar Energy...Now we need flexible GPS, one that could work on Mars, Venus, and Earth. Otherwise, there will be a lot of people getting lost on Martian highways.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 07:48:08 pm
content: Quote from: MosherIV on August 19, 2019, 06:12:08 pmIt's not exactly pointless if you can replenish the atmosphere. Apparently the loss is about 1500 g/s. We pump 761 tons of CO2 into the atmosphere each second. Not quite apples to apples but it shows it should well be within the technological reach of man if we can find substances locked within the crust of Mars. Not being able to stand up in 1G environments is as already discussed not an issue as people aren't expected to zip back and forth between planets.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 07:59:57 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2019, 06:51:56 ampeople are making it out to be some kind of planetary destruction weapon, better its assembled on mars without a return trip (I guess this is like a gigaton bomb?)there is like no good reason for something that powerful to be on earth at any time. It should be completed in sub assemblies, shipped to mars, so its like completely separated. Like some magic shit from indiana jonesor better yet, build a reactor on mars that melts it in a controlled manner and not have some crazy greenhouse effect mars doomsday shit go down because some climatologists got it wrong, at least you can turn that off. Maybe you can even get the fissile materials on mars so you don't need to blast radioactive material into orbit on rockets. That could turn into a radiological nightmare.. the military does not launch livenukes in ICBM tests. If you can arm it remotely or its on a timer.. its not disarmed. Disarmed means a military technician needs to do something physically to turn it on. You would need to send an astronaut along with it to insert a core for it to be considered disarmed. Like undo some bolts, insert something, get a torque wrench, etc. How can it be disarmed if you can remotely arm it?? That can always malfunction.I can't believea PAUL VERHOEVENmovie starring Arnold Schwarzenegger is more sane then one of the most promising companies CEO's in America ! It sounds like Clarence Boddicker came up with this plan in a haze of cocaine fueled insanity!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 08:41:56 pm
content: Oh sure, but people should really stop reading random tweets and taking them seriously.It looks like even the most reputable persons (not that Elon Musk is really one) end up tweeting utter crap for no obvious reason (other than getting some attention?)Twitter has become a crap machine really.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 09:09:14 pm
content: Let's face it, the whole Musk thing is vanishingly less likely than err.. Trump buying Greenland. It ain't going to happen.We are doomed to spend the remainder of our existence as a species on our current, rather damaged, planet. We live on the only planet in our solar system capable of supporting human life on a meaningful scale. Maybe some of the moons of the outer planets might prove in the future to have some chance of providing the necessary life sustaining elements for long term survival but they are physically small. I fear that our most likely future usage of the other planets will be as 'nasty' waste dumps (for which the moon would be much more convenient anyway).Mars is a dead planet, its atmosphere was stripped away long before life on earth evolved. Any feeble attempt to create a new one will go the same way. At best, we may achieve insignificantly small scientific, or maybe mining, colonies under artificially maintained domes but that's it. Even then solar bombardment will make long term habitation unlikely - unless you dig holes and live underground but who's going to want to spend their life like that? Its proximity is also too close to make a realistic 'lifeboat' for the human race.Short of any speculative missions in the future to find new habitable solar systems (if we can ever develop the technology to sustain multi generation 'seed' populations to venture that far out into the unknown), here's where we were born and here's where we will die (sooner or later).We often fall into the trap of thinking ourselves supremely evolved and invincible. In truth, we are no more durable than any of the species that became extinct in the recent or very distant past (who's traces are all but obliterated). The only relevant survival difference between these extinct species and ourselves is our self-destructive nature.To paraphrase something someone famous said (David Attenborough?) Long term, the Earth will be just fine, it's survived far worse in its history. It's the Human race that needs to worry (as in sh*t-scared).Sorry if this sounds gloomy, but I think this assessment is probably the closest to the real situation here.P.S. Of course, Mr Spock might just stop by and offer us a lift but I wouldn't pin your hopes on it!

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 09:59:12 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 19, 2019, 08:41:56 pmWhat do you mean has become, it has always been like that.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 11:22:56 pm
content: it should be called'Twatter'> mostly generic twats, imposter twats, and attention seeking shock jock twats tweeting BS,stirring pointless intrigue, drama and waffle = wasting internet bandwidthGoing by many opinions here, it's no surprise that Mars eavesdrops a lot,and makes the first aggressive moves in B-Grade flicks"Let's invade and stamp out those pesky sabre rattling earthlings, before their space tech and weaponry improves,and serve to remind the Venus and Uranus dudes to think twice about hitting on Mars.."i.e. stay here, be happy,space travel is a no go money pit/black hole,"get out and fix some something..."

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 11:30:22 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on August 19, 2019, 11:22:56 pmI see the Old Man Syndrome is rearing its head again.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 01:52:40 am
content: Now I am not against colonizing Mars, we will eventually get there, however with today's technology, this is what we are up against: (meaning, we will still be waiting a few decades for a truly successful functional colony...)

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 05:48:39 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on August 19, 2019, 09:09:14 pmWe are doomed to spend the remainder of our existence as a species on our planet... That is, until the planet turns against us and once again return back to an environment unsuitable for human.For most of the time since life started on earth, it didn't have an environment suitable for human life. You may call it damaged planet, but the planet itself is healthy. It has been much warmer yet blooming with life, it has been much colder yet blooming with life, it has had 2x the oxygen yet blooming with life, and it has had 2x the CO2 yet blooming with life. It is healthy - just not suitable for us humans.Like other life forms on earth, there was a time when those life forms were perfectly suited to live in the environment at that time. They evolved to be seemingly perfect for the environment, almost like how well the earth and the sun seem perfect for us. But with or without them or us, the environment will change by itself. Some how, The Big Die Off occurs. We all know about the Dinosaurs, but that was nothing. There was theOrdovician–Silurian Extinction(86% of all species gone ~440 MillionYearsAgo), or theLate Devonian Extinction(75%, 364MYA), and of course the REAL big one,Permian–Triassic extinction(96%, 250MYA). Some how, what was perfect environment just changed...We are the first species to be capable of developing technologies to help us survive in unsuitable environment.We damn well better start learning how to do exactly that instead of relying on keeping the status quo. Temperature will change whether we are here or not - be it by solar cycle, asteroid strike, or by the movement of our continental shelves (volcano on the ring of fire), so on, so on, so on. Atmosphere will change whether we are here or not. Then there are disasters that creates quick changes: Statistically, we are overdue for Yellow Stone Super Volcano (statistically every 600K years, last happened 640KYA). Statistically, we are overdue for magnetic pole inversion (183 times in 83M years = 450K years, last happened 780KYA)...Oh, another good news: Don't forget, we developed during and are living in theHolocene "inter-glacial period". Here on this forum, every one knows what "inter-" means. So even if all the random stuff like asteroid strike stayed away, more than likelythis inter-glacial period will end returning us back to yet another round of an ice age. Ice sheet will go as far south as New York covering New York by perhaps ice as thick as 2 miles. That means most of current northern Europe, Russia, China, Argentina, Australia... will be under ice as well. You are talking time scale of mere 10s of thousands years, not millions of years.So, we are very lucky to have evolved and developed. Things around us changes all the time that can send us back to non-existence. We are here hoping to keep the status quo, same as the dinosaurs did except they were probably not smart enough to hope. We are smart enough to hope. We better also know that status quo is not the nature of our earth, nor is status quo being the nature of the universe. Change could happen in the blink of an eye (geologically speaking) and without prior warning.We need to learn to live in environment that is not friendly to us, or we go the way of the Trilobites.

author: Gromitt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 09:13:35 am
content: Have anyone read Red Mars/Green Mars/Blue Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson? It's about colonizing Mars and one of the things they do to make the atmosphere denser is to detonate nuclear bombs in Mars poles to release CO2. And these was written in the 90ies. So it's not an original idea from Musk.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 11:14:59 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on August 19, 2019, 07:59:57 pmNot so. There are a few reliable methods to remotely "activate" a bomb that don't require a human.One method used in real weapons is a neutron-absorbing chain or wire that is would out of the core by a motor that is remote triggered. Once the chain/wire is removed the core is "armed". The bomb can't go critical with the neutron absorber in place.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 11:16:54 am
content: Quote from: Gromitt on August 20, 2019, 09:13:35 amMusk doesn't have original ideas, that's not his thing. But the media don't know that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 11:20:36 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on August 20, 2019, 05:48:39 amThe problem is the timescale compatibility. Less than hundred years for a human is a trivial amount of time to notice and/or worry about geological time scale changes.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 11:29:37 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 20, 2019, 11:16:54 amVery few people have original ideas and then there's the matter of independently coming up with an idea which already exists.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 11:48:01 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 20, 2019, 11:29:37 amSure, and there is nothing wrong with that. Taking an existing idea and making it practical can change the world. But not many people get lauded by the press and credited as the originator of so many ideas as Musk does.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 01:57:04 pm
content: Nuking Mars?Has not (something similar, but for very different reasons) happened to planetPhaethon, before that planet was eventually reduced to the so-calledAsteroid Belt?And, when aretheyintending to 'discover' the remainingtwo planets(the innermost planet calledHephaestus[being in orbit between the Sun andHermes], and the outermost planetPan[the last one, beyond the orbit ofPluto--that ...poor planet that some 'experts' have ...decommissioned!]) of our Solar System?And, yes, themystic(= of themystes) numberthirteen(13) has always been all over the place!:-Twelve planets plus the Sun*,-TwelveathloiplusHeracles,-Twelve disciples plus Jesus,-et cetera (Twelve Somethings plus their Centre)...Ah! By the way, who knows which planet'smystic name(NOT the colloquial but the priestly one, because there have always been many ranks of naming or presenting things in the open) is the following one?:Agseron(not sure about the correct spelling in English; in my own language it is«Άγκσερον»).-George[ * ] Up to the era of Peloponnesian Wars, it was (almost) common knowledge among my ancestors that our planetary system was consisted of the Sun and its twelve orbiting planets, named in their orbital order from the Sun: Hephaestus, Hermes, Aphrodite, Earth, Ares, Phaethon, Zeus, Cronus, Uranus, Poseidon, Pluto, and Pan.And, yes, I understand that this is not common knowledge any more...P.S.If you do not know what about I am talking, please ignore the post! For the aficionados, it ought to be 12+1 because every single planetary orbit position strictly follows a relevantly simple algorithm based on the Fibonacci sequence, its mass and its speed; There already exist a few helical elliptic models for it, so feel free to investigate it as deep as you dare --it is not as difficult as it sounds to be!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 02:01:20 pm
content: Quote from: A Hellene on August 20, 2019, 01:57:04 pmDoes the myth of Greek oracles come from you lot living on top of broken gas mains or drinking water from lead pipes or something?

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 02:30:08 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 20, 2019, 02:01:20 pmThough I've searched for something similar in English, that can work as a direct translation for my intended answer, I've only found the following ones:--Don't judge others by your own standards.--Don't measure other people's corn by your own bushel.So, I'll answer you in my own language (the mother language of all the Romance languages --and, please, don't give me any little lectures about that fictional fabrication, called 'Indo-European Language Family' that was firstly sold to the public as the 'Indo-Germanic Race / Civilisation' dogmas, which did not sell very well and they were forced to be changed; just exactly what happened with the 'Global Warming' that did not also sell very well and was reduced to 'Climate Change'):Μην κρίνεις εξ' ιδίων τα αλλότρια.-George

author: enochRoot
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 03:49:00 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on August 19, 2019, 09:09:14 pmGeorge Carlin had a bit like that too!

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 05:18:38 pm
content: Quote from: enochRoot on August 20, 2019, 03:49:00 pmI remember that standup routine! And yes, its amazing how many people genuinely think that climate change, or even some kind of nuclear war would leave the planet a dust ball - we really aren't capable of it, not by a long shot. A super volcano, or large metoerite impact is capable of far more damage. It's "civilization as we know it" that is potentially under threat. That's why I've not really understood why Friends of the Earth don't change their name to Friends of Humanity - because it is really humanity they are trying to save, tree's and plants will more or less be fine, and animals are going to go extinct, and new ones to take their place.(just to clarify, I'm not suggesting we carry on as we have, or that hunting animals to extinction is acceptable, or we shouldn't try to greatly reduce fossil fuel usage... ).

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 08:07:55 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 20, 2019, 11:20:36 amFirst, before I get in deeper, let me explain why I see this as not off-topic: Mars is an excellent platform for us to learn survival technologies. I am not interested in individual survival, not national survival, but civilization size (and up) survival. That means enough left to rebuild a civilization to similar level. Civilization would be hundreds of years to < 10K years time scale. Homosapian time scale would be 10K to 100K years. Sapiens time scale would be up to single digit million years.Most of the bad stuff almost always involve big swing in temperature. In my estimation of the bad stuff, volcano, asteroid/comet strikes, and gigantic solar wind are more likely than other bad events. Both volcano and asteroid strike have atmospheric and orbital dust proven to cause temperature swings.In the last few glacial cycles, human has survived warming and cooling of ~10C to 15C without going extinct and without much technology. We have no reason (yet) to expect run-away warming (Venus level temperature) or run-away cooling (back to snowball earth), so we don't have a major problem there (yet).But while we had survived +/- 10C and did it without advance technology, we do not yet have ready-to-use technologies for continental-size civilization survival. Solar storm caused 1989 Quebec Blackout clearly demonstrated how incapable we with our survival-technology and with technology-survival. We need more robust technology, Mars can help us with that.Less than a month ago (July 25, 2019), we failed to spot a 100 meter asteroid until it was almost passing by at less than earth-moon distance. 100 meter is twice the 50M Barringer meteor that created the 1.2 KM wide hole in Arizona, and volume would be 2**3 = 8x mass. We can't let stuff like that happen and expect human as a species to survive. Mars can help us with that also - it will force us to learn more about our surroundings, and give us another angle to view the sky.If nuking Mars helps, by all means. Right now, our Mars problem is we don't have Mars in our thoughts enough. We need M&M, not the candy, but Moon and Mars. Get back to the moon, get a colony there. Moon is an excellent platform to get to Mars. Get there and all the while our technology portfolio will keep getting bigger.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 10:04:51 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 20, 2019, 11:14:59 amthats like putting a interlock that can be remotely triggered.I would argue that you need a telepresence with a skilled human operator using a finicky robotic arm, that is all just adding 1's and 0's to stuff, as soon as you put a motor to unscrew the thing poisoning the core, IMO its armed because a malfunction can arm it. But even that is not kosher..increasing interlock complexity is not the same as requiring a human to go to the thing and plug something in on ordernot to mention you can't spoof it, unless you spoof orders to the human.. the telemetry can be rerouted to display safe

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 10:12:37 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on August 20, 2019, 10:04:51 pmThis exact technique has been used onactive nuclear weapons in the US arsenal.