STMicroelectronics Shortage - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: robotix3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 02:20:31 pm
content: Due to the strike (https://www.eenewseurope.com/news/strike-calls-continue-stmicroelectronics-france) in France and COVID, there is a global shortage of STM micros that is much worse than the average component. How is everyone dealing with this right now? We've reached out to every broker we can find and no one seems to have anything that is close in terms of pin-count and memory requirements to our original MCU.I've only used Atmega and ST (but mostly ST) micros, what would be the easiest manufacturer to port our existing code to?

author: tunk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 02:35:23 pm
content: I don't have a clue, but I'm left with the impresessionthat ST has several microcontroller families. Which onehave you been using?

author: robotix3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 02:50:39 pm
content: We're using the STM32G030K8T6, there are a lot of crosses in other families but they are also suffering from shortages.

author: robotix3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 04:11:35 pm
content: Just interesting that there seems to be no talk of this on social media, being that basically every electronics company on earth is affected by this.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 05, 2020, 06:29:58 am
content: https://twitter.com/OmzloElec/status/1331021524174852098QuoteI've got a project of mine I finally got around to making, uses the STM32F042F4P6.Sure it's available from somewhere, but I don't want to make 10 of something, have them sell out instantly and risk not being able to make them in bulk.Nor do I want to order 100x, and not have them sell.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2020, 09:57:20 am
content: Hurry up while stock lasts

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 05, 2020, 11:12:59 am
content: How many do you need?https://octopart.com/search?q=STM32G030K8T6&currency=EUR&specs=0

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 12:28:03 am
content: De ja vu.During the GFC, Atmel's workers making switch detection IC's in France went on a long strike, resulting in Atmel shutting the plant down. Two week's notice to engineers like myself who had just developed a product using their touch switch IC's. I had to painfully use a Microchip 16F1947 MCU to do adaptive matrix touch switch detection and it cost the project several weeks, headaches and sleepless nights. During this time, Atmel refused to answer any emails about when they would recommence manufacture and they offered offered zero support. They could not give a rats arse. I avoided Atmel like the plague until Microchip bought out Atmel, where maybe there could be some trust re-established. Microchip had a strong history of being a reliable supplier.The French go on strike a the drop of a hat. Their militant unions often put the French public to ransom. At the bottom of the sewer is the gilets jaune who are basically anarchist criminals. In Australia our unions have not put the public to ransom since the 1970's. We have moved on from those dark days when the once militant Transport Workers Union put the public to ransom with their petrol strikes, train strikes, tram strikes and airline strikes. We barely ever hear of anyone going on strikes in Australia. Maybe STM should consider relocating their plant to Australia. They would be welcomed here.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 07:30:28 am
content: one of our contractors gave us a headup on ST increasing lead times... two months ago!they are beginning to give ever increasing lead times on older parts (like the F1) so that you move on to more recent, (possibly) pin to pin compatible chips.Other manufacturers as well, like ADI, and they said this is all due to COVID because either the big customers (automotive) have their production lines on hold, or other big customers (medical) need specific parts and they are focusing production on those

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 12:08:33 pm
content: The problem STM will have is people will avoid using their micros in new designs if things stay bad for too long, and move to more reliable suppliers. It sounds like STM has no alternative source. Remember the RAM shortage of the late 1990's where prices skyrocketed. This was partly due to the one Sumitomo chip plastics plant (Indonesia) going up in smoke. The industry was at fault for having a single source. The only winners were brokers who hogged the memory chips. Having a single source is risky, and particularly foolish when the parts are made in a country run by a tyrannical dictator. The major banks of the world have hidden backup locations in difference cities, so if the central processing bureau is hacked by "state actors" or bombed, the other can continue operations effective almost immediately. Seems it is not the same with key electronics parts where there are no alternatives.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 02:57:28 pm
content: Has anyone tried EFM32?https://www.silabs.com/mcu/32-bit. I set on stm32 because I'm familiar with ChibiOS, but may be it's time to move on or try something new.

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 03:16:27 pm
content: The idea that ARM MCUs are becoming difficult to buy is strange. And if so, it appears a problem of the supply chain rather than of production of a certain brand.And the approach of implementing one design with no variation possible may not be enough in a crisis. At least one should be able to make the product with another member of the same MCU familiy, like in the example above F6P6 instead of F4P6. Better you can have two designs with one MCU from STM and one from Microchip. I think it is great that we can work with a common code base, at least the application part.Regards, Dieter

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 05:43:27 pm
content: Porting code for a serious product say 100-200kloc from uC manufacturer A to manufacturer B even when the core is the same and the compiler is the same can take a team of three SW devs about 6 to 9 months of time depending on the amount of testing you require.My previous company has done this multiple times because of new peripheral features for future features and/or lower price/quantity, but there can be lots of surprises. You would like to already have automated endproduct system testing in place for product verification.

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 09:35:35 pm
content: A pain if you have to do it in a case of emergency. If you plan it from the beginning it may even help to better structure the firmware into system parts that depend on the hardware platform and application parts. Yes, a redundant effort will cause extra cost. But that depends. In an industrial supply chain you may win a contract if you can prove that you have a plan B. In former times they would call it "second source".I remember very well the discussions in March when it turned out that China won't be able to supply protective medical equipment for the whole world, because they needed it themselves. Here in Germany people became nervous and started telling lies about the necessity of masks etc. Later they said they will enforce national supplies in critical sectors of public health. Don't know whether it is ever going to happen. Nobody wants to be second source.Regards, Dieter

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 10:42:37 pm
content: Quote from: robotix3 on December 04, 2020, 02:50:39 pmAre you know that the Chinese comrades have a clone of STM32 called GD32. I tested GD32F103C8 - didn't notice any problems.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 04:55:16 am
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on December 06, 2020, 10:42:37 pmWe should not be supporting piracy and IP violation, irrespective it is is made by comrades in China or comrades in the (former) Soviet Union. The Soviets pirated a lot of copyrighted chips made in the USA. The GD32 might work "the same" as the STM32 but no-one in their right mind would use it for a commercial, industrial or medical product. You'd get sued if you substituted one of these for the real thing and something went wrong, eg: early life failure, corner case issues, temperature issues etc. Besides, you have no come-back when something goes wrong and no support.

author: ANTALIFE
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 06:08:25 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 07, 2020, 05:05:11 amWhere is the BS in that comment?Also the author of this blog contacted ST about GD, and yea it looks like GD is not doing things by the book:Quotehttps://olimex.wordpress.com/2015/11/09/chinese-clones-attack-stm32-microcontrollers/

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 07:18:33 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 07, 2020, 07:08:54 amThey're too young to know and aware of that.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 07:50:25 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on December 07, 2020, 04:55:16 amMaking compatible products (i.e. reproducing same public external interfaces: like having a steering wheel) hasabsolutelynothing to do with piracy or IP violation.Similarly, I could call you a murderer. Which you hopefully are not. Like Gigadevices are not pirates or IP violators.There is also no proper ground over which you could get sued by using Gigadevices products. On the other hand, I can sue you over a murder. It's simple: get a lawyer to apply the paperwork. It's just not going to fly very well, unless there is a political reason for it to work.AMD vs. Intel is a great analogy, really (there was Cyrix and others, as well). Try to understand it. And in the end, both have benefited from it; AMD has reproduced the Intel's interface, and later, Intel has reproduced the AMD's interface (AMD64) when it worked out better.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 11:36:30 am
content: Remember the FTDI FT-232 chip debacle. Knock-offs were made in China at a fraction of the original cost. When FTDI did a strategic driver update for their chips, the fake chips ceased to work. That was smart but with one BIG exception. Through the supply chain, innocent purchasers of equipment using those knock-offs got their equipment bricked, which FTDI presumably failed to anticipate along with the backlash that followed. Piracy damages industry, stifle innovation and rips off the innovative inventors of technology. Ethical engineers will use the original devices that are still under patent protection and shun the "copy watch" brigade. Same with music and videos - unless it is public domain, piracy is theft. Even the egg-throwing badly-behaved Justin Bieber is entitled to the rewards of creating so-called intellectual or artistic property.IMO, if functionality within the STN chip is protected by patents, and if the GD chip violates these patents, we should not be using them, even if STM supply is crippled due to a strike. But if no patents are violated, use the GD chip by all means, but of course at your risk.https://olimex.wordpress.com/2015/11/09/chinese-clones-attack-stm32-microcontrollers/

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 11:52:39 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 07, 2020, 07:50:25 amNot a good analogy. Intel and AMD had a very profound and comprehensive second source agreement for a wide variety of Intel designs, eproms, 8086, 80286, '386, 8051 and more. Intel provided AMD with full mask tapeouts. In the 1970's the idea was that customers, (especially the military) of chip company’s would be very reluctant to adopt a design unless it could be source from multiple fabs.Intel was not the behemoth it is today. It started out making small DRAMS to replace core memory in mainframes. The first DRAM was intel's 1103. Then IBM adopted the 8088 and Intel became a processor focused company. By the mid 1980's Intel was fed up with handing masks to AMD and wanted out of the contract pre-maturely. AMD was still able to make 386's from intel masks but that was the last in the second source agreement. Lawsuits were launched and I think they were settled out of court.As far as I know GigaDev never had such an intimate business arrangement with ST.

author: dgtl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 02:40:18 pm
content: Yeah... F03x and F07x in smaller packages were gone from all suppliers. Had to redesign multiple boards to larger package to get manufacturing going again. Not nice at all.

author: robotix3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 03:14:04 pm
content: We were finally able to secure enough of an ST MCU in the same family for the next few months.Still likely switching over to NXP since someone was saying they are a more reliable supply. (Let me know if you don't agree with this) After a few months we have no idea what our volumes will be so if ST MCUs are still at a 30 WK LT then we are in a bad place.I've already started porting our code to NXP and so far it is a good experience, toolchain is very similar to ST.EDIT: Also, anyone going to short STM? It's at an all time high and I'm betting a ton of companies will switch over to someone else because of this.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 07:43:23 pm
content: ST vs GD : ST pays hefty fees for use of the Arm Cortex core design, does GD too or did they copy paste that as well

author: tonyh88
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2020, 02:54:20 am
content: Interesting info about this shortage. Looks like not all the stm32 are affected equally by this shortage or maybe demand is lower for some families.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2020, 10:43:37 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 07, 2020, 07:50:25 amNot at all in comparison with GD32. AMD licenses out AMD64 extensions to Intel, likewise Intel licenses out x86 to AMD and others.Wikipedia x86, x86-64:QuoteQuoteThis is why private processor extensions can be such a crud to deal with.. Software compatibility was usually best on Intel because they had the fastest cores for a long time with the most extensions. The only thing AMD could do is to get a hold of, and implement the same instruction sets:https://www.extremetech.com/computing/227059-amd-announces-new-293-million-joint-venture-to-build-servers-for-the-chinese-marketQuoteSo unless Gigadevice has paid STMicroelectronics a bag of money to use their patents, they might be infringing them.On the other hand, how much is there to patent about the RTL of a part? And then I mean the programmer facing part; the bits that are in the registers... is that copyrighted? Patented? Do you claim binary or source code compatible? I think that is very debatable as it's mostly 'software'. A bunch of structs and memory address. How much is there infringing about it?The actual HDL source code is covered by copyright. If Gigadevice would be forced in court to show sources and IF they would show 'stolen' or 'leaked' code from ST, I'm sure they will be in big trouble. But I think that it's far more likely that they have cloned the same functionality in their spare time. If you look closely at many "clone" devices you often see that high design effort features like power saving or mixed-signal (ADC, DAC) are terrible. It is often relatively simple to get something to work, but to perfect and polish it is 80% of the design effort. Likewise it is relatively simple to get a large databus in an MCU working at several tens of MHz, but if it then also must be power efficient such that you can compete on uA/MHz or <1 uA sleep mode, not so much. *This* could be a major part where vendors like ST, Atmel, Microchip, NXP, Silabs, Nordic, etc all have their own special sauce and patents in. And this is also exactly the reason why I'm sincerely looking forward for RISC-V devices specifically from those vendors, because the actual CPU core used can be an ill predictor for actual power efficiency (e.g. look at how much more efficient STM32L4 devices can be compared to STM32L1 or STM32L0), and a little while ago I checked out a RISC-V CPU that looked great.. except it still ran at 1mA/MHz or something.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 12:05:29 am
content: I think it is very important for Chinese guys to enter foreign markets and they try to comply with the rules of foreign markets in every possible way. This may be difficult to understand for those, who make rules and are used to dictating them to others, but in the East it is customary to respect the rules when coming to visit. It's just a tradition.I have no proof, but I believe that they didn't steal the crystal's photomasks, but created their own STM-compatible processor. This is supported by a 1/3 higher clock frequency, for example, this is no copy. And GigaDevice's dataset is much cleaner and more convenient.European guys need to think, they are doing a good job, they are doing well, but they are a little fat and clumsy. Very well-fed life in Europe with inflated prices, and in America too, separation from the other World. This gap is not always fair and the swing always swings in both directions.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 08:21:50 am
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on December 12, 2020, 12:05:29 amIs that why chinese copy the products we inventIf you can talk to our government to reduce the cost of living to the cost in China and decrease our average house prices from €300000 to €100000 with return of the previous investment I have no problem with a 50% wage cut.But actually seeing the prices of STM microcontrollers , the entire st.com infrastructure with free good quality compiler and very cheap almost no profit Nucleo boards and st link programmers etc. Etc. so I don't have a clue wtf you're argument is about.Can you show me the great GD free compiler, ide, experimenting boards, programmers , oh wait no you can't.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 08:49:38 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on December 12, 2020, 08:21:50 amI don't blame you or justify stealing. It would be better not to lower your standard of living, but to improve it for everyone.But I am telling you about the danger that is before you (and me to). You become very far from competition - this is the reality.China is developing very intensively, they will reach European quality after a while, but they will not have a lazy manager who is not very useful, but they pay a lot of money for being able to inflate their cheeks and say the right words. You can just sit there and wait for the Chinese to push you out from everywhere. Don't expect the Chinese to always make low quality, they will learn very quickly.STM is a good processor, really like it and use it. Yes, it's really not expensive, but remember when there were at least some development tools for STM. And remember Atmel-Studio when it appeared with a great knowledge base and examples. Moreover, very high-quality examples that you could trust and not expect surprises. There is no such reliability in the garbage generated by CubeMX, many programmers do not even understand what is happening there.You taught the сommunists the market economy. Your western business went East for cheap labor. No one forced you to shoot yourself in the foot.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 09:22:24 am
content: Oh yes China will definitely dominate globally in a few decades, it is happening already for years and not even with competing, they just buy companies, harbors, communities and electrical and waterworks.So no surprise there, if you look at the history of the world this is happening since humans started walking on two feet. The artificial countermeasures for instance the us takes to cut off china from the latest chip manufacturing fabs is just a temporary setback. They now have to proof if they also can do this themselves, we have to wait and see. But wealth in the world is not unlimited, if the west goes poorer so will china have less export and so on, so it is mutually beneficial to keep relations and wealth in balance.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 09:36:59 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on December 12, 2020, 09:22:24 amWho is stopping the Dutch from buying up companies, harbors, communities, electrical and hydraulic structures?Who forces them to sell?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 09:43:28 am
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on December 12, 2020, 09:36:59 amThat my friend is the hell of neoliberalist capitalism at its worst, short time vision, short time infividual greed and cashing. The good companies are the family owned medium companies that already exists for tens of years. They save in good times, use it in bad times and have a longer term strategy. But the so called moneymaking hedgefunds they are just in it for the short term, buy a company rip it apart and sell the good bits toss the rest. The vultures of our society.And the workers sho all build it are left behind unemployed.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 09:44:33 am
content: Quote from: exe on December 06, 2020, 02:57:28 pmI have used EZR32, which is the radio-integrated version of EFM32.Bloody awful processor with plenty of poorly documented 'features'. Only 4 timers on the EFM32WG series which was (at the time) their mainstream CPU. We thought we could get away with it initially but ran out eventually. The radio is a separate die, that's fine, but it interfaces over a buggy SPI interface and frequently locks up with no way to recover without a complete hard reset of the radio core (takes 50ms.) That's not fine.Then there's interesting bugs with the SDK and IDE provided, not uncommon perhaps but in some cases we've taken over a day to figure out what random configuration changed and broke things.Silabs support is next to useless if you're small fry, they don't care, good luck getting any response back from a certain FAE.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 10:00:36 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on December 12, 2020, 09:43:28 amIt's amazing to me. I understand the European bureaucracy, but I have always thought about the strong dependence of power in Europe on the desires of people.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 10:04:25 am
content: By the way, ESP, as far as I understand, is a completely Chinese project... What do you say? What other processors have similar functionality? Only recently has ST released a processor of this type.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 10:52:14 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 12, 2020, 10:23:37 amBut these guys work in China, right? In America, you know, there is also a good international of developers and programmers.And I worked briefly as a programmer in the US.I am saying that ESP was definitely not stolen from anyone, it is a unique proprietary product.

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 11:11:31 am
content: I am wondering whose business contributors promote, who put everything in terms of nationality. I think STM is a multinational, like most of the others. That Chinese are emphasizing their national efforts means they are a little backward, similar to the electors of Trump. I can't believe people in China are more intelligent or better educated than elsewhere. The communities of the 21st century are global.Regards, Dieter

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 11:12:50 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 12, 2020, 09:50:48 amNo you did not, you pointed to western made compilers , infrastructure and all cloned and copied stuff from western manufacturers.If the chinese are so terrific and great it is about time they invent and improve their own things instead of copying existing stuff, the world is waiting, and still disappointed.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 11:17:58 am
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on December 12, 2020, 10:00:36 amWe are still not one in Europe and the EU government is divided by national interests that conflict.Most people I talked with have lost their faith in the EU and their old fashioned investment plans. Instead of making huge efforts to boost technological development most money goes to farmers and last century technology. And the potatoeheads sitting in the parliament all are products of alfa and gamma party time studies. Oh well at least it is peace, for now.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 12:32:31 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on December 12, 2020, 08:21:50 amThe actual software workflow for STM32 is usually completely based on free, open source GNU tools, specifically and most significantly, gcc, but also binutils, gdb, newlib, etc. ST has basically zero contribution to any of this. ARM as a company has likely significantly contributed to gcc-arm, but again GigaDevices are licensing ARM cores properly (they likely get a good deal from ARM; it's way easier to just buy the licences than to try to recreate binary-compatible core like Cyrix was of Pentium).The utter pile of software shit produced by ST to run on the top of the actual backend is of near-zero value. The fact people use these tools does not mean they are really useful, or needed; they just exist, are easy to download and run on Windows, hence used.Your lack of understanding and replacing it with ideological mental dishonesty is showing, and ugly.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 02:07:00 pm
content: That is true if they have a legitimate arm license than they can join the arm infrastructure out there but why 1:1 immitate an st processor peripheral and pinout. Make your own better peripherals and own pinout, it is just too easy and I am also very annoyed by the hacking and espionage from China and other countries to steal IP from western tech companies which again was proven last week in our country.China has the money, china has the brains and knowledge, go start leading and create instead of dteal and copy, that is the message. Ugly or not, just the truth.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 02:19:47 pm
content: Emulating STM gives competition for ST, and a second source if things go wrong. As engineers, we should applaud competition. The GD processors aren't reverse engineered copies, they are ground-up reimplementations of STM32 architectures, some with better performance than others... it is just like Wine compatibility layer for Windows, or Dalvik/ART on Android for Java.The Supreme Court will debate whether the Java API is patentable/copyrightable. I hope that Oracle fail in their lawsuit. It would be a dangerous precedent to set. APIs should not be copyrightable in and of themselves.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 02:24:56 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on December 12, 2020, 02:07:00 pmHmm .. such an englightment, doing something in return for you, 3 words ... "Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie" .

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 02:25:57 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on December 12, 2020, 02:07:00 pmWhy would different manufacturers do 78xx regulators with the same pinout when they could invent their own pinouts, I wonder??

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 05:05:32 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 12, 2020, 02:56:17 pmGood to hear, looking forward to fresh products.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 05:08:08 pm
content: You know, as a consumer, I like having full compatibility. If ST or someone else doesn't like it, convince the court. Personally I haven't seen any complaints about GD. Europe is now very unreliable, some cataclysms or just crazy politicians can make STM32 inaccessible to me. This is probably already happening. I'll just buy a GD32 from the Chinese guys and solder it in place of the STM32. And most likely I will specify GD32 in the next purchase. There is also an analog of STM32 in Russia, but it has significant differences, is very expensive and difficult to access - it is produced for military purposes.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 06:53:41 pm
content: Quote from: dietert1 on December 12, 2020, 11:11:31 amGuys in China are more hardworking, more efficient, and less whimsical - I think so.I can say this with confidence about Russian people.

author: GK2
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 09:05:54 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on December 12, 2020, 05:05:32 pmWell, so long as they do better than Tsinghua Unigroup; one of China's largest technology conglomerates which just a little while ago was tendering multi billion dollar acquisitions and was being spruiked as one of, if not the key player in China's pending conquering of Western dominance in semiconductor technology. This State Owned Enterprise that reportedly gets 30% of its funding from the state is now just one of the latest casualties in China's record yuan tally of bond defaulters for 2020 and is sending out warnings that it possibly faces bankruptcy.This is the "efficiency" of China's debt-driven growth model finally beginning to pay dividends I guess, but that won't deter the sycophants with their blinders on.https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-10/tsinghua-unigroup-s-debt-risk-widens-with-dollar-bond-defaultshttps://www.ft.com/content/ee38e7b8-989b-4130-bf76-707805104d06

author: uski
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 01:52:19 pm
content: Having worked in high volume manufacturing, I know how bad it can be to deal with a shortageAnd I can saw that ST is shooting themselves in the foot if they are making their customers suffer from a shortage, because customers will switch if it gets bad enough. And once a customer switch, it is hard to get them back.It is difficult to switch from a microcontroller since a lot of code has to be ported, but this is also why it is even harder to regain a customer once the have switched.In a previous company I worked in, I remember blacklisting both Atmel and Winbond because they f***** up. For years they tried to come back, but we wanted to do nothing with them.Atmel de-committed from a delivery because they got a big order from a bigger customer and wanted to serve them instead, putting us in a very dire situation. Next design was without any Atmel part and we made sure we had no Atmel part anywhere. This was 8+ years ago and to this day they are still blacklisted in the company.And Winbond promised a super price to win the design, and increased significantly the pricing as we were close to production to corner us. I never removed a flash chip from my design so quick. W*nkers !I work in another company now but I will think twice if I ever have to design a Winbond or Atmel part in a design. So this blacklist somewhat survives between companies in the perception that designers have of the brands.So there is a big reputation hit when a supplier misbehaves like this. Shortages, supply chain issues, have a big impact on their customers, and the customers will strike back one way or another. Big customers might use lawyers or penalties in supply chain agreements, and smaller customers will switch and blacklist.

author: Klemken
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2021, 08:09:12 am
content: We use STM32F031F6P6 for one of our main projects and its out of stock on farnell, arrow, mouser,.. everywhere and according to support, it wont be restocked for months.Luckly STM32L031F6P6 is in stock everywhere, compatible and only requires a small amount of modification to software to work for us. But still, its annoying.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2021, 02:35:36 pm
content: Quote from: Klemken on January 20, 2021, 08:09:12 amI ordered on LCSC STM32F103VC, found that they are not in stock, there is no VE to replace. I looked at the entire F103 series - not even the most popular C8 was in stock. It even scared me, and I began to think about other suppliers. But I sent a request to the LCSC, I need a small quantity of 50 pieces and I was told that everything is available for order with a period of 5-7 days. Maybe it's not a problem of having an MPU and there is some focus on a centralized warehouse?

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2021, 03:12:52 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 20, 2021, 02:47:57 pmI. e. crooks and hucksters came to the MPU marketand now there will be auctions? Will consumers now fight for the product?I looked at the LCSC warehouse - there are small stocks of the F103 series, but the price has become more than 2 times higher.Friends, what do you think it is:- high demand- artificial scarcity to raise the indecent price- it's time to look for a replacement for the STM32 they are leaving the market

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2021, 02:20:49 pm
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on January 20, 2021, 03:12:52 pmYour questions indicate you are younger person. If you last long enough in the electronics manufacturing business you will experience multiple cycles of "chip famine" with the attendant price gouging and backroom deals and scrambling. It is nothing new. The scarcity is real at the start of the cycle, but then it gets amplified by hoarding and profiteering behaviour. This can really kill small manufacturers that operate on thin margins and low volume. been there done that.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2021, 08:03:14 pm
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on January 21, 2021, 02:20:49 pmDo you consider ST to be a small producer and STM32 at the beginning of the cycle? Maybe I misunderstand something?

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2021, 08:25:23 pm
content: We had the huge capacitor shortage a few years ago. 100nF caps were substituted with any nearby value, they were all sold out. I think in that case, artificial shortage was real because the margins for manufacturers was just not there. So if you then want to raise the price of your product, first take them of the market and see how people start begging at your door to produce them again for any cost.To be honest I don't think ST is doing that. The F103 isn't exactly new, in fact you see it used everywhere. Many boards like Blue pills with F103 knockoffs probably fuel the popularity even further. The Cortex-m3 is a capable processor. It only lacks some DSP and FP instructions the m4 series has, but you explicitly have to use them to benefit from them. So for projects doing some USB, ethernet, serial comms and other generic stuff it's fine. You get tons of RAM, 12-bit 1MSPS+ ADCs, DMA, which is basically the same building blocks you have on the bigger MCU's these days (just less of them). 72MHz is only about half what you get on an entry level F4, so not that far off neither.Really it's not surprising that people use them, as spending more is only warranted for specific use cases. In other projects, just cost optimize. E.g. 2$ vs 4$ MCU can translate to 5-15$ retail price difference, and for many products that's a lot of money (or margin).I'm not surprised medical companies try to overbid by several times the MSRP. Recertification of products is real. In any other industry, if I would had to deal with a shortage of F103's, I would probably look at other chips from ST that are pin compatible with similar peripherals (probably F4 series), and add some extra BSP code to run the firmware on both chips. You probably don't even need 2 binaries as long as you stick to the least common denominator ISA, which is the Cortex-m3.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2021, 09:44:13 pm
content: Quote from: hans on January 22, 2021, 08:25:23 pmThe transition to the F4 series does not look so expensive now, the price of the F3 has increased by more than 2 times. But this is the same ST that now raises concerns. There is no certainty for the F4 series either. Probably, we will have to consider GD32 or the Russian analog.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2021, 03:01:31 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 23, 2021, 02:28:38 amWhy didn't the Chinese guys flood Samsung with trillions of these capacitors? They could produce them and sell them by the ton until the crooks run out of money.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2021, 09:22:31 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 23, 2021, 02:28:38 amDo you have a source / evidence to back this up ?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2021, 10:04:13 am
content: The words I heard from a friend of a friend was MLCC shortage was mostly caused by big players underinvesting in the low cost market (they make too little profit on low value 0402, 0603...) and an uptick in demand caused by new IoT type devices with substantial requirements for these parts.Murata, Samsung, etc. are not too interested in selling you a lot of $0.0008 ceramic capacitors, they would rather sell you a few $0.01~0.10 capacitors (1206, 10uF, 25V types for instance)

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2021, 07:51:47 pm
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on January 22, 2021, 08:03:14 pmYes I am pretty sure you misunderstood and it is my fault for not giving a better more fulsome explanation. To start with ST is not a small producer and that its size is largely irrelevant to what is happening now. When I refer to cycle I mean the business cycle where production and demand vary over time. On a quasi-periodic basis the electronics industry goes through parts shortages. My guess is that many semi manufactures shuttered or slowed their production 2nd and 3rd quarter of 2020 because of Covid. Both because of social distancing and other crap within the plants and also because they anticipated their customers would also be shutting down or reducing demand. China has apparently come back faster than anticipated and that resulted in arealparts shortage.Once buyers and sellers detect that a parts shortage is developing then certain psychological effects of individuals operating in their own bubble of knowledge take over and amplify the supply/demand imbalance and make it much worse. A big effect is caused by hoarding. Companies start over buying more parts than they need so they can maintain production, that in turn is noticed by distributors who start jacking up the prices. I need to emphasize there is no Mr. Big-evil orchestrating this; it is simply the end product of individuals acting in their own self interest.The capacity of supply-management chains to become unstable was noticed a long time ago and is taught in business schools and University through a simulation called "The beer distribution game"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_distribution_gameReally all it is, is a way to introduce business management simpletons to the ideas of what engineers would call "control theory". Even if a supply shortage is caused by a Mr Big-evil as blueskull suggests happened with 100nF MLCC's it can still be made worse and wind out of short term control by the actions of many bit players. This is what the beer distribution game simulation teaches.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2021, 09:17:28 pm
content: The game is good, but I do not know if this game has smart-ass managers who at one point think: "we have a consumer attachment, demand has strengthened and stopped being elastic - why don't we go into deficit?" This is also taught in universities.And the black power here is one: insatiable greed.ST is not such a small player, they have a fairly wide range of products under their brand. It seems that the market should regulate, but it does not or is very inert. For me, self-consolation with "normal and ordinary" processes does not suit. So I either switch to GD32, or try to negotiate with the Russian manufacturer (it is obscenely expensive, their processors are designed to survive a nuclear war).I don't want to fall into a pit of scarcity at the production stage. I am the market that throws out unreliable suppliers, only a small one - I don't have the money to run and buy 3k pieces processors and not visible to anyone.