What's up with the price of morse keys? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / rf-microwave

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2016, 11:11:16 pm
content: I've been looking around and there's SFA available on the cheap.Now, I realise these are slow moving items, so new ones have a super-margin, but cw operators are a dying breed. Literally. Where is all their used gear going? Who the hell is driving up the price?Personally, I'd like an antique with some history. Because that's just cool. But where are they? Are spouses and children throwing them away because it's just a useless old switch?Maybe I just haven't been searching the 'bay for long enough.Can't do the morse yet, only up to 13 Koch chars, but I intend to reward myself with a nice key.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2016, 11:29:15 pm
content: Search ebay for "LLaves Telegraficas Artesanas"Paddle not a key... but maybe you want a paddle?

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 12:01:23 am
content: Ha! Even that's not expensive. Seems about middle of the road on price. But I'm really after a key to start with anyway. Tradition.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 12:09:15 am
content: The are old style morse keys from Kent:http://www.kent-engineers.com/

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 12:20:14 am
content: I found the Kent website while I was looking earlier.Like all websites HAM it's straight out of 1998. I wasn't even sure they were still in business. Let alone have stock.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 12:23:27 am
content: Morse code keys are out there - not too expensive at the entry level used or new but if you really want a vintage one in nice condition that will probably cost more. I'm on a similar path - holding out until I can prove I can actually key and decode.In case you haven't already checked on the Apple store (in case you have an iPhone or iPad) there are some very nice free Morse Code training apps.Tons of videos on you tube but this is one has good discussion of keys vs paddles.My plan is to learn on a key but paddles look like they can be very cool:Probably a ton of other good ways to learn Morse Code but this looks handy:

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 02:17:42 am
content: A Morse key is just a switch but there seem to be collectors who will pay to get one to look at (seldom to use).However you can make one (or a keyer paddle) with some springy metal for a few dollars. My YouTube has a couple.

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 03:31:16 am
content: Still got my old 'bathtub' key I had in my early teens.Got it at the WIA equipment auction for about a dollar, way back when Crow's Nest had houses.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 03:39:04 am
content: I still have the Vibroplex I bought when I was a teen along with my first Radio Shack key.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 05:54:15 am
content: Quote from: vk3yedotcom on January 25, 2016, 02:17:42 amI don't mind that. Those people will probably look after them. I just don't believe they account for the deficit in the marketplaceQuote from: vk3yedotcom on January 25, 2016, 02:17:42 amAny old momentary switch will do.Meh. Is there a 10c MCU that comes without capacitive touch these days?

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 06:38:15 am
content: There's probably an 'app' that does it anyway

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 08:21:28 am
content: Quote from: apelly on January 25, 2016, 05:54:15 amElectrically, yes. Sensually, no.Anything can be used to send at 5wpm. But once you get above 12 - 15wpm and you're having to make numerous movements per minute it becomes more critical.Here's a key made from a push button switch common behind the front panel of an old video etc. It's OK for short contacts but stressful to use at speed or for longer contacts.A similar one is used on this wind-up torch which was converted to a Morse transmitter.On the other hand, grab some brass strips with nails used to fasten cables and you have something that's not the most solid but requires little effort to send at good speeds.

author: roffvald
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2016, 01:56:17 am
content: I work in Norwegian coastal radio, we still have quite a few morse keys around for display and I even hooked one up to a buzzer with a nice display for when kids come to visit. While we still have quite a few here on display, most of the older ones were donated to HAM's and museums. Infact alot of the HAM's around in Norway gets quite a bit of gear from us when we upgrade in exchange for some expertise and know-how

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2016, 02:17:36 am
content: It might be an idea to build one with parts from the hardware store. As long as the arm is low mass and rigid, the pivot is low friction and the spring force and upper key stop are adjustable, the 'feel' should be satisfactory. Either use a good quality short lever arm microswitch in an adjustable bracket so you can set its height and the distance from the arm pivot for a crisp keying action without excessive over-travel, a photointerruptor if you don't mind a logic level output or traditional adjustable contacts.This may lead to inspiration:http://www.galleyrack.com/images/artifice/telegraphy/projects/nilson-radio-code-manual-1942-extract-make-key.pdf(8.5 MB)

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2016, 02:27:50 am
content: Microswitches are pretty horrible for morse keying. You want 0.5-1mm max travel, with minimal clicky feedback. A couple of set screws is usually a better idea, and then you can set them for a comfortable distance for keying.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2016, 09:49:57 am
content: Sure I could make one.I'd rather pay an honest price for one though.Now I've looked a but more, I do see some cheaper ones on ebay. If the seller would ship to this far off land. I'll just have to keep my ear to the ground I suppose.

author: donmr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2016, 06:51:05 pm
content: I have found several at ham fairs, simple keys for low prices. I had to help one of the sellers put the pieces together and adjust it.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2016, 09:43:01 pm
content: Kent Keys are still in business and the quality of service from them is amazingly good. I'm a satisfied customer.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2016, 10:56:21 pm
content: I seem to recall that in the late 50s through the 60s one could score a real U.S. Signal Corps J-38 telegraph key for just a couple of dollars from several mail order surplus outlets. Ever ham had one or more and no one thought they were anything but a entry level CS key. Try to find one today in any decent condition and be amazed at the $50+ they get.Anyway CW sending with a key is a very personal preference kind of thing and that's why they have so many 'adjustments'. Some like a heavy key others a light sensitive key touch. Spring tension and contact spacing are important and personal adjustments. To be honest I suspect few use a straight key much anymore except for special occasions or contests. Most CW fans use electronic or mechanical keyers or I suspect a lot use keyboard CW these day?So if you come across a J-38 key be sure to keep it as it's now more then a basic CW key and moved on to collector status.http://k6ix.net/J38Keys.html

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2016, 11:32:37 pm
content: If I was in the market for a new straight key, the Kent ones look very sweet.The J38 looks like the go-to key for something with historic appeal.I'm sure some sort of electronic paddle/keyer will be on the cards for me at some stage, but not yet.As for a keyboard? What's the point? Just use another way to communicate.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 11:56:14 pm
content: They are too expensive, they are a good example, of a simple, functional object, a SPST switch, that seems to have become objectified - a sort of "fetishism".

author: _Andrew_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 12:48:19 am
content: It is always worth checking club sales.I picked up a good used HI-MOUND HM-HK706 for £4 at a club table top sale. The key has plenty of adjustment.Dispersals of former radio ham's gear is often handled by clubs as well. If club members are either unable to make a sensible offer or not interested in the kit then theses days the clubs post it up on ebay. Clubs usually are good at achieving a good value to pass back to the family of the ham.Keys normally go for £20 and upwardsI was also lucky to have been given a WWII RAF Type F Key 10A/7741 "bathtub" key that was given to me by a relative that flew Lancaster bombers. Fully enclosed design to contain sparks from the contacts to reduce the fire risk. Heavy key to use but then they were designed to used while waring thick gloves. From what I was told people tended to bash out there message with there fist on them. Certainly robust.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 10:50:04 am
content: I still have one of these. Not sure when I last used it though...

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 12:45:22 pm
content: Quote from: apelly on January 25, 2016, 12:20:14 amSo true!

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 01:09:37 pm
content: Ex Military Morse keys are often simple and relatively cheap. I still have a 1950's British Army straight Bakelite Morse key somewhere. I sold my Marconi Marine straight key some years ago. I almost fainted when it reached £250 on eBay. It was bought by a collector.Fraser

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 04:15:17 pm
content: It's apparent from a handful of the posts here that some of you have never sent CW, either that or you learned the skill for the test then forgot about it.Ivan747Kent keys is a one man operation and the gentleman running it is a mechanical engineer rather than a programmer or electronics technician. He's good at what he does, making Morse keys that are a pleasure to use, and the level of service provided by his one-man operation is beyond excellent. Sure, the website is a bit rough around the edges, but it works just fine and any owner of a Kent key can find spares and support whenever they need it.cdevMorse keys are expensive for a number of reasons:1) The quality of materials used, including matched pieces of brass stock and pieces that need to be chromed and polished.2) The number of parts, far more than a simple SPST switch3) The number of adjustments that are available. Everyone's 'fist' is different and my keys are set up just the way I want them regarding weight, contact distance and a host of other adjustments. Fiddle around with the settings when visiting my shack and it could take 90 minutes before a key is back the way I want it.4) Low production quantities. You can go on Alibaba and order a million SPST switches then get them delivered straight from China. Producing a good key takes time and skill and it's something that can't be rushed.What can be done with a good key? I was taught high speed Morse code by a gentleman who is now no longer with us. During WWII he was a radio operator on a U Boat, a situation where an incorrectly sent or received character could result in death or capture. When listening to Morse 12 WPM is reasonable and 20 WPM is fast, Jochim could send perfect Morse code at 26 words a minute. Try that with a simple SPST switch, sometimes you need the right tool for the job.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 05:07:23 pm
content: Are any simple beginners keys both decent quality and cheap? Imported is okay if its solid and decent quality.I learned Morse code as a kid and think I could probably learn it again, I still understand bits of it.Also, I have a question. It appears that there is some convention at certain times (during contests?) for CW QSOs to begin at three 20 second points in every minute, perhaps an agreement to start sending at 0, 20 and 40 seconds after the minute change?Similar to some digital modes..Edit: adding picture to show what I mean (20 second starting times per minute) below. Looking at it (the little c on the right means spur cancellation was active) perhaps there is perhaps a tiny chance that this phenomenon may have been caused by the programs' (Linrads) spur cancellation routines???

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 06:04:40 pm
content: Readers may find the following link of interest:

author: grantbob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 09:32:48 pm
content: Quote from: apelly on January 24, 2016, 11:11:16 pmAre they? I keep hearing that at least in the US, more amateurs are learning CW since the requirements were dropped in 2006. I don't have a source but I've heard it on a couple of different podcasts and blogs. Might be true... I'm still working on learning it even though I don't have to.I still don't get the high prices though. I guess it's still basic supply and demand. Where there was once a need for keys outside of amateur radio, now it's pretty much only for amateur radio. The add collect-ability and some crazy-priced boutique items and you've got some expensive stuff.-grantbob

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 09:50:54 pm
content: Having used maritime keys I think something needs to be understood. A quality commercial use straight key will have ball bearing mounted pivots, corrosion resistant materials and normally platinum contacts. Screw adjustments enable reliable control over back Spring tension and contact spacing. Theses keys are a quality item that always cost quite a lot to buy as quality costs. Hence my recommendation to buy a military surplus key. These are cheap and plentiful as they are surplus with a limited market. Good ones will have all of the features mentioned above.HAM keys come in many different forms and qualities. Again you normally get what you pay for so a cheap new key is likely to be less well engineered or using cheaper materials. Practice keys often had no pivot bearings and brass contacts. Avoid collect able keys such as those from WWII as you are paying for rarity or history rather than the units intrinsic value.I just searched for military Morse key on eBay UK and there was plenty of choice and at reasonable prices.Used ex commercial keys will likely be better quality and value than a newly made key sold at the same price.Do not underestimate the importance of a good key. Sure I can send Morse using a pair of bare wires, but would I want to ? No. A Morse key is a personal thing. For regular use you want a key that feels right and you can adjust to your personal liking. I started sending Morse with quite a large contact gap that gave a nice CLACK ! As you sent Morse. I did not need a side tone to hear what I was sending. As I got faster, the contact gap got smaller got faster operation. In the end I operated with a really small gap that would have horrified me when I first started sending Morse.I have never got on with side swipe type keys or auto keyers. I am a straight arm Morse key operator as that was what I learnt on and have always liked.Fraser

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 10:16:17 pm
content: When I was a student the engineering block had a morse room that looked like a school classroom except every desk had a morse key mounted on it. These morse keys didn't look anything special but they were a delight to use. I'm assuming they were ex naval/maritime and the action of these keys was better than any key I've ever used.Back in the 1980s I bought and built the classic Kent morse key kit with the lead weights in the base. I still have it somewhere. This key was pretty good as ham keys go but not quite in the same class as the keys in that old morse room. But I used the Kent key when I took my morse code exam for my class A licence. It had decent bearings and contacts and it helped with the quality of my sending in the Morse exam

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 10:34:13 pm
content: Yes at Brunel in the late 1980's we had a Morse room with each desk equipped with a really nice Morse key. They were nothing flashy to look at but we're professional maritime keys, manufacturer not known. We all had our own SG Brown Radio operator headphones with Bakerlite earpieces. Down the side of the room we had booths with a simulation of the Marconi Apollo HF receiver for carrying out Radio Officer training and simulation for the MRGC exam. At the front there was a glorious AR88 HF receiver for off-air Morse reception and insertion of noise and other Morse signals on our headphones. There was a paper tape high speed mechanical Morse sender and a DATONG electronic Morse trainer. One of our instructors was Mr Lancaster, nicknamed 'Bomber' Lancaster and he was a WWII RAF Bomber radio operator. Amazing man who could send Morse as fluently as he spoke. Superb hand and all round nice guy.I had an ERA Microreader to help me with my Morse sending and receiving. A great piece of kit that was compact and could also decode RTTY.Fraser

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 10:36:38 pm
content: QuoteI've used both and a good quality electronic keyer with decent paddles is a thing of goodness, kind of like the taste of ice cream melting in one's mouth.

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 12:48:31 am
content: Quote from: cdev on January 30, 2016, 05:07:23 pmNo, not at any time. Morse contacts can be of random lengths and start any time, depending on sending speed, repetition or if clarification is needed on a callsign. Morse is stand-alone and no connection to a computer network for precise time data is required. Ditto for PSK31.Whereas some (not all) digital modes eg WSPR have fixed period bursts tied to time blocks where transmitting and listening starts and stops to enable sharing of frequencies.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 01:08:02 am
content: Quote from: German_EE on January 30, 2016, 04:15:17 pmDitto! You really have to appreciate the level of attention something like that would take. I like supporting small artisan type shops. You get good service, and you know the item you got is unique and rare. We get spoiled by cheap commodity stuff coming from china, that we too often expect everything to be cheap. I am guilty of this too, it is good to be reminded, that not everything is made in 100k+ quantities.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 02:01:24 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on January 31, 2016, 01:08:02 amVery true. Keys were though. Either they've all ended up in land-fill, or all HAMs have dozens of them.Surely anyone would recognise one wouldn't they? Or would children/grand children just take them to the tip with grandpa's old junk they don't want?

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 02:36:37 pm
content: "Surely anyone would recognise one wouldn't they? Or would children/grand children just take them to the tip with grandpa's old junk they don't want?"This is the major problem with things like ham radio, what may look like junk could be an item of value. I know that we don't like to think about things like this but written into my will are strict instructions for the executor to contact the local ham radio club for assistance in the breakup of my shack/workshop should I die. Everything will then (hopefully) find a good home.

author: _Andrew_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 06:28:30 pm
content: Just on the subject of morse keys W2AEW just put this up on YouTubehttps://youtu.be/SfoR2NrNP1I

author: mtntreks
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 05, 2016, 05:09:01 pm
content: It's easy to get caught up in the "artisan" $$$ key thing, but there are some nice keys available for not much money.Soviet era TKF keys are ugly, but are very nice if you want a nice Euro / British style key (secured to the front of the desk / arm at your side) they're a good choice. They go for about $30 USD shipped on ebay from the Ukraine to the USA.NYE Master Keys are available used (ebay) for under $50 USD and are nice also. This is more for the American style with the key near the back of the desk. They don't make this particular model anymore, but it's a good choice in this style.If you haven't already, please consider joining the SKCC. This is a fantastic training ground for new CW ops, and is a good way to get on the air and start making CW QSOs.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 09:07:17 pm
content: Quote from: mtntreks on February 05, 2016, 05:09:01 pmI have bought a few keys from ebay in the last week or so. I decided not to look too carefully at the price. Nothing too expensive. Probably between 25 and 75 bucks, not including shipping. I decided to get them sent to my re-shipper to save on some freight.Quote from: mtntreks on February 05, 2016, 05:09:01 pmSKCC =http://www.skccgroup.com?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 01:40:39 am
content: Quote from: vk3yedotcom on 2016-01-30, 19:48:31>Quote from: cdev on 2016-01-30, 12:07:23No, not at any time. Morse contacts can be of random lengths and start any time, depending on sending speed, repetition or if clarification is needed on a callsign. Morse is stand-alone and no connection to a computer network for precise time data is required. Ditto for PSK31.Whereas some (not all) digital modes eg WSPR have fixed period bursts tied to time blocks where transmitting and listening starts and stops to enable sharing of frequencies.See the screenshot I attached under my original post.Thats what I mean.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 09:56:57 pm
content: Well, I got outbid on a couple of navy flameproof keys last night. One went for \$\approx\$ $100 and another for \$\approx\$ $150It's all over the place.

author: nealz
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 06:18:35 am
content: Find a local club and show an interest. You may find a ham that will loan/give you one. If they loan you one you will learn what you want and dont want iN a key.

author: wkb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 04:29:51 pm
content: On last week's hamfest I bought a brand new straight key of Czech military origin for only €15A bit of luck is apparantly required. Not that I am into CW, it was purchased for a fellow ham wanting to learn Morse code

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 12:46:20 am
content: Well, I've bought a few straight keys off ebay, and one locally. I'll decide what I prefer and sell the others I guess. I think the cheapest one was a Slovakian thing for about $25 including shipping.I'm sure with patience I'll cover the cost of the ones I don't want by selling them locally.

author: electrongeek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2016, 01:44:04 am
content: The U.S. Navy Flameproof key, and the German Junkers DBGM keys are both great straight keys.Keep an eye on ebay, prices vary. I was able to get the Flameproof for a good price by waiting and watching.Post your "want" on QRZ, that is how I got my DBGM for a good price. You might find a ham that just wants to find a good home for a key and would sell it reasonably.Patience in your search is a virtue!Chip

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 16, 2016, 05:29:37 am
content: Cheers electrongeek. I'm pretty much overloaded with keys at this stage. I have a couple of flameproofs but no junker; can not stand trhe appearance of those, even though I hear good things about them.I don't know what a 'good price' is for a flameproof. I paid somewhere over $100 for mine.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2016, 04:02:58 am
content: So I was going through old junk and I found a very old key, it looks like it went through a war..It is labeled "CJB26003A". Is it worth fixing up? Appearance doesn't mater that much to me but feel does.It does not feel like it has much "spring" left in it.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 25, 2016, 04:19:46 am
content: Sounds like an old navy flameproof:http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/3847From the research I've done, these are very highly regarded. Keep it. Use it.

author: shawnb
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2016, 08:38:01 pm
content: I'm guessing most of the vintage keys either end up in a landfill or on someone's home office bookshelf as decor. A lot of estates are liquidated rather quickly, so unless a ham club is aware of the sale, there is little chance of finding an informed buyer (even if "informed" just means knowing enough to pay $5 for a box of them to list on eBay). To most people, at best they are a cool looking WWII relic; at worst, barely enough metal to scrap; but either way "nobody has used those things in decades" so they are basically junk.Growing up, we had an old J-38, a Vibroplex bug, and a Bencher BY paddle pushing a Heathkit HD-10 electronic keyer. The Vibroplex was a beautiful and fascinating piece of mechanical engineering, but as I kid I could never get it tweaked just right -- the Bencher with the electronic keyer was my favorite to use. Sure, it was just a couple pieces of metal, screws, contacts, a spring, etc -- but it was quality hardware, and you could make infinite adjustments to the action to get a certain feel and have it hold through hours and hours of constant use. Keys are like any tool or instrument -- you get what you pay for, but some people can't feel the subtle difference of a quality tool (or just don't care).Quality machining is now an expensive boutique service, since almost everything is outsourced to cheap "good enough" shops in China. It's amazing to think that, even with higher volume, no one builds a quality "helping hands" soldering tool even though they are just a handful of small machined parts. I'd pay a ridiculous price to have one like I used through the 80's -- the ball joint movement was always smooth and fluid, the set screws not only held in place but could adjust how easily the arms moved, and the arms never fell off while you were using it.Maybe it's just me, but it's sad thinking about the little things that are so rare these days!!

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2016, 10:25:16 pm
content: My grandfather passed and I rescued both his keys from certain burial.The Bunnell J-36http://vibroplexcollector.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Bunnell-J-36-1724-300x225.jpgand McElroy CP-500http://w1tp.com/7740.gifThey both sit nicely displayed in an antique wood case behind glass in our dining room...I also have a full fledged hobby machine shop and would like to collect ridiculous sums of money for making quality replica's of yesteryear