Low Cost Pick and Place Machine - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 03:56:44 pm
content: Hi AllI work for a very small group called ProtoVoltaics. We make electronics and do custom projects for people including prototyping.This has been keeping us busy, and placing a bunch of boards by hand is time consuming. We looked online for pick and place machines, but what we found were machines that: needed the user to check, and correct misplaced placed parts, could place small parts but not IC's, and were either too slow or too expensive.It didn't take us too long to decide we would make this our next in-house project. We have been working on our machine for a few months now, and we are ready to grow awareness of our project. As of now we have only been using Hackaday.io, and our blog to show our updates. However, there are many other great places to talk about projects like this such as eevblog.We are looking to start a discussion about our PnP machine to find out what people would like in a PnP machine. Maybe you have a PnP already, but the CV isn't robust enough, or it can only place a few hundred components per hour. Maybe you have never seen a PnP machine before, and just want to know how one works.We look forward to seeing what people have to say. We invite you to check out the project details on our hackaday.io/protovoltaics page, and to view videos of our projects/progress on our YouTubehttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLqKBaRZHeLOnbVsihLs8_A/videos

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 04:30:22 pm
content: Why do you have multiple offset cameras?

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 05:05:50 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 06, 2015, 04:30:22 pmWe use two cameras one looking in the X direction, and the other in the Y direction. Doing this allows us to correct for any XY offset error when we pick up and place parts.We can see the middle of the pick head, the middle of the parts to be place, and the middle of the area on the PCB where the part will be placed. This works great for small parts like the 0603's used in the video, but we think we will have to make some changes to do IC's (we haven't tried yet). Another reason for doing this is to increase Components Per Hour (CPH). Since there is no upward facing camera we only have to move between the feeders and the placement area.

author: kjs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 05:20:27 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on May 06, 2015, 05:05:50 pm0603 small parts? These are monsters.... We place as a standard 0402's and sometimes 0201's with our Swiss Essemtec machine and it handles all types of IC's including BGA's very well. No issues with placement or angle since we got it around 5 years ago. Small footprint and well thought through. At CHF25k the price was right too.

author: DanielS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 05:36:50 pm
content: Quote from: kjs on May 06, 2015, 05:20:27 pmWell, OP's company seems to be looking for a replacement for hand-placing components. Populating components smaller than 0603 by hand would be extremely tedious, as if 0603 was not already bothersome in any significant volume.That said, 0402 is a very nice size to be able to pick-and-place since it fits almost straight across SOIC-8 leads to reduce sprawling around op-amp feedback loops and other sensitive paths that need to be as tight as possible.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 05:44:07 pm
content: Quote from: kjs on May 06, 2015, 05:20:27 pmYes, I agree. 0603 parts are much bigger than 0201 and 01005 parts. I was simply comparing 0603 parts to IC's in my comment before. Also, yes, a $25,000 CHF ($27,000 USD) machine should be able to do large and small very accurately. We are looking to do this for less than a fifth of that price.Thank you for mentioning your machine. I will see what I can find on them, and maybe I can learn something from what they are doing.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 05:46:10 pm
content: Quote from: DanielS on May 06, 2015, 05:36:50 pmYes, this machine is a replacement for tweezers and a microscope for us.

author: kjs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 05:55:24 pm
content: If it's just a replacement for tweezers and microscope it makes a difference. When we looked into it we wanted a machine which can do medium volume production and the prototype work. Advantage is that once the prototype assembly worked you know that production will work too.We looked at many of the cheaper machines and none came even close. The price I mentioned was list price but the market was down which gave us a pretty hefty discount on it. Often it is cheaper in the long run to buy something more expensive.....

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2015, 06:34:03 pm
content: Just added a new video of the Auto Tool Changing.https://youtu.be/syRGDpmOsxs

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2015, 07:24:55 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on May 07, 2015, 06:34:03 pmIs it possible integrate this thing with oven-I mean take PCB from stack, pick and place and pass for "cooking" oven to run some kind of automated line with final visual inspection before soldering?Another thing-is it possible play with this machine in manual mode eg. by insertingG-codelike CNC machinists but with those cameras "hawk eye" support? It could be helpfull to make corrections if needed...Also working on my own small machine to automate PCBs assembling (small PCBs up to 5cm x 5cm) but with integrated custom iron plate oven with glass window on top to monitor soldering progress.I've already done custom kinetics module for Linux CNC which allows me drive my machine usingG-codein manual mode, so that is why asking for such possibility in your productAs we can see myEneurokinsLinux CNC kitetics module translates G-code to machine geometry coordinates and vice verse.BTW: this is not trival cartesian transformation since CNC machine oryginal concept was something like this to manufacture parabolic mirrors molds, but smaller versions I hope will be fine for pick and place and will allow put PCB to custom oven while another PCB is prepared for solderingSo, do you haveG-codesupport in manual mode like CNC machinists used to do sometimes for simple tasks ?My goal is use my pick & place in manual mode first then try automate using OpenCV for realtime video processing

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2015, 07:53:35 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on May 07, 2015, 07:24:55 pmOur software does support G-code in manual mode. I have gotten the conveyor question many times, and there will most likely be a version we make with a conveyor. At the moment we don't have one because we are simply trying to get everything else finished, so we can Have a fully functional machine to take to the National Maker Faire in Washington DC.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 12:18:52 pm
content: Hey guys, Just wanted to post an update here. We were working on speeding the machine up, and we got it to a point where we would use it for ourselves. We have a few more things we are working on now to get it even faster, and should be done with that in the next couple weeks. Currently we are placing at a little over 850 CPH. Here is our latest video, I forgot my camera at home so this video is taken with my phone.https://youtu.be/C7Pi4akL5ogI think the really cool thing is that it aligns to every piece it picks up, and every pad it's placing on. You can see in the video it will stop over top of the PCB, and then align and go down. This will be very beneficial to us when placing more than one of the same board at the same time. If the offsets between boards are different our machine will still work, because the position it goes to doesn't have to be dead on. It will just align to the pad it needs to and place.Also, I haven't mentioned here, but the feeder we are using was homemade too! We actually just got those completed last week!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 12:54:16 pm
content: Quote from: kjs on May 06, 2015, 05:20:27 pmNo, they aren't.PnP machines have traditionally had a bit of a hump to get from 0603 to 0402, so much so that PnP companies market their ability to handle 0402 on their machines. Many older machines need upgrades or option to handle 0402.A low end PnP machine limited to 0603 is not really a limitation. It's common for designers to not go to 0402 unless they have to. Less risk in production.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 01:15:52 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 22, 2015, 12:54:16 pmThe boards we sell are designed using 0603 that is why all our videos show 0603 placement. We can do 0402 currently, but our main focus now is very accurate placement of IC's, rather than anything smaller.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 03:49:39 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 22, 2015, 12:54:16 pmTrue. Most PCB's will be just fine with 0603.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 12:47:16 pm
content: Shortly after my last post on here we successfully placed our fist IC. Very exciting, we hope to have a video of the machine making a full board up soon.

author: Alphatronique
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 01:05:41 am
content: Hi you may look into ebay that one was sold few week backhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/MyData-Automation-TP9-2U-Pick-and-Place-Machine-/261851567952and i have personally send one to scrap last week ,there day machine that not handle 0201 was commonly send to scrapyou quick find that even if machine miss 1 part on 100 ,time you spend find and debug it have prohibitive cost (good comercial machine have 1 /10,000 )few year back i put lot of time and money into try make one ,end result was that i learn that cost less to buy a working old oneand now i put my time doing project ,not project that will permit to later make my real project ;-)have fun

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 02:21:57 pm
content: Quote from: Alphatronique on May 27, 2015, 01:05:41 amYeah, making a pnp machine has been very difficult. It's been a fun process, and we are very confident in our machine. Our current machine is very accurate and very repeatable. We haven't run it long enough to see where we are in terms of error, but we will get there.We haven't set a price for the product yet. We know it wont be as cheap as liteplacer, but we are around 3 to 4 times faster at the moment, we have feeders, and we are capable of IC placements.We should have the pick and place ready for orders in the next 4-8 weeks. We will continue to update on where we are in terms of progress and price.Public feedback is always welcome. We are eager to know what you all would like in a pnp machine. So far public feedback has been very helpful, and we have been able to incorporate many of the things they have asked for such as: automatic feeders, automatic IC placement, placing more than one board at a time, auto tool changing (heads for smaller/larger parts), larger size for increased placement area.

author: Alphatronique
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 06:04:21 pm
content: you place your first chip yesterday and you already in sale pitch mode ;-)let time to build couple of hundred board and see how it perform and how mutch babysitting it require ,how software is usablefor teach new part , new data coming from different cad system ,different part batch from different supplier ,solve the feeder issuewas very active in the pick place word , in many forum and i see miraculus low cost home made pick palce apper every 30day or lessbut in 10 year only one i see that ramp to production was the neodem an maddel ,and i a barely usable machineeven the table top 30K$ mancorp machine was not so usableif you really what a helpfully machine for home prototype ,take a delta 3D printer ,put laser pointer on itand let laser spot tell were to place part to humam that place it whit Tweezer ,and of course tell witch part on a LCD displaythat low cost ,faster that most home made pickplace ,more reliable and avoid placement error and you got 3D printer in bonusthat same way used for vintage troug hole and whit only a light lampit may look that i rude but on that it have no free lunch ,and you may now got very good reliable used commercial machine that do 0603 and up for very decent priceand have machine that have >20 year of research and development put on it and that not require any babysitting

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 06:50:59 pm
content: I don't find any of what you said rude, Alphatronique, I very much appreciate your feedback. Yes, we placed our first IC, but we have been placing other parts for quite some time now. In the low cost pnp market I haven't seen any that can do IC's reliably with vision. For us being able to place IC's was just us seeing our machine as a step ahead of whats out their currently as opposed to saying "ok now that we can place IC's lets go to market."

author: JackP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 07:46:28 pm
content: The issue with that is (and people like rx8pilot will hopefully back me up) it does not allow you to be doing other things. It may be somewhat faster than normal manual placement, but you are still tied up. With a decent old PnP machine, you do not need to be constantly tending to the machine, so can write firmware or design a daughter board etc. With enough money, you can automate the process further, to autoload boards into the machine. Good for through hole boards in a factory workspace, yes.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 09:22:33 pm
content: I would much rather have a slow automated machine than a fast manual machine for sure.I applaud the effort on this project, you have obviously seen the challenges involved in PnP. The challenges in making 'affordable' PnP are even greater since this is a precision endeavor and precision costs money. There are some clever ways of using low cost parts and pre-made sub-systems like motor drivers or vision, but it is still very difficult which also costs money.I am not suggesting anyone give up on making PnP affordable, but perhaps re-examine why it needs to exist. For my use, I needed a low-cost PnP solution to help with prototypes and small batches that are all not good to send to commercial CM outfits. That means it needs to be precise, but not fast. It also means that it needs to be very easy to setup, hold any type of component, and hold a large variety of parts (for me anyway).Take away the need for super speed, you still have a requirement for precision so the cost can only go so low. Ease of use to be able to change from job to job is not cheap either. This requirement is why modular feeders were invented. Modular feeders will add cost even if they are only semi-automatic dumb feeders.If it takes a long time to setup or struggles with small parts to the point where an operator has to be watching the whole time, it will quickly become a neat toy. The only reason PnP exists is to make PCB's fast enough to be a profitable business, right? Businesses don't buy toys, but they do sometimes need an entry level option - in the case of PnP it is a very fine line.I am crossing my fingers that my own investment in PnP actually pays off by getting me to the next level of business. Only time will tell.

author: Alphatronique
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 10:03:33 pm
content: Hiactually the "semi-automatic dumb feeders" was one of the most impotent thing ,if machine cannot pick it right it cannot place itfollowing the shit in ,shit out principle of physicmost low-cost machine try to compensate for bad feeder by vision but this requite to teach of each part ,and unfortunately it have more variation on part that it lookjust like ceramic cap have good color variation even on the same reel ,not to talk on end contact variation ,same for resistor each manufacturer or event fabrication plant have slight variation of pad shapeso evil was in the detail ;-) on my production machine a mydata machine weight 2Ton was so rigid and mechanically stable that i place all day long thousand of 0402part whiteout any vision assistance whit exception to board fiducial ) ,this permit to make Small batch attractive since no vision training invoke and no subject to ambient light variationthat remember me that one of local small shop have a mancorp MDC machine ,every Monday morning machine was not usable since out of calibration and have pour yieldafter investigation it find that for clean-up floor the cleaning man move the table on witch machine was located and lack of frame rigidity un-calibrate machine every timehave fun ..

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2015, 12:14:02 pm
content: I completely agree, a pnp needs to be more accurate than fast, and needs feeders to support it. We went into this project stressing the need of feeders. We went through 3 versions of our feeder very quickly, and we actually CAD'd a new version last night. Here is a video on version 2 of our feeder.https://youtu.be/uNBV_dabrDAThe newest version we just CAD'd up has nothing that comes above the pnp table, it is a completely hanging system. All of the versions have been hanging systems, but they have come up above the pnp table by about 3 inches. This was a problem for our camera attached to the front end of our pick head.Also, I agree that if you have to babysit the machine there is no need to get it. We made this machine to free up time not to spend it doing the same task in a different way. I won't say we are at that point now, but I think we are close, and we will continue in that direction till it has been achieved.We do plan on having a conveyor system in the future it's just not something we are working on near term. It's all still a work in progress, and will continue to be long after we start selling the product.If anyone is in the Washington DC area we hope to see you at the DC National Maker Faire. We just got our invite this morning!

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2015, 01:00:51 pm
content: That feeder looks very expensive, in some areas unnecessarily so. A ton of machined parts. I can't see that being sellable for much less than traditional P&P machine feeders. A low cost machine must have low(er) cost feeders.Interconnect also looks a total mess - 3 connectors, and a consumer audio & power jacks on a device that will see vibrationAnd all that internal wiring.How about something like a PCB-mounted D9 or D15, with ribbon interconnect between feeders - that would save a lot of internal wiring.The long path from the sprocket wheel to the feed point may have issues with crumpling on plastic tapes, causing parts to jump out.Your "feed-then peel" action is likely to make parts jump out of plastic tapes. needs to be a single smooth action.I'm not sure that design will scale well to large parts like QFPs due to tape radius around the sprocket, and tall parts (maybe also heavy inductors) could also be problematic without good support & guidance of the tape - a wide tape needs support on both edges.You may also find that worm gear gets clogged with dust from paper tapes.It ought to be possible to friction-drive the tape take-up from the main motor to avoid the seperate motor - a simple belt from your middle gear perhaps?IMO needs a few more iterations.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2015, 01:10:03 pm
content: To be honnest, I fear the engineer who goes "I bet we can do that cheaper and better, fast". More often than not, there's a reason for a certain price and you'll find yourself figuring out the hard way justwhythe established brands are expensive and seemingly over-engineered...

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2015, 01:57:18 pm
content: Mike, thanks for the feedback, we have made some of the changes you mentioned already. As I stated the video was version 2 of our feeder from a few months back. The interconnect has been changed, and we haven't had a problem with vibration yet. We do think there are more iterations needed as well.Ice-Tea, fear us then, because our goal is always to do it better

author: Alphatronique
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2015, 02:21:30 pm
content: Hi ok the feeder was really great, but need more structural support on tape exit in X,Y,X axe ,usually it also use small metal tab that cover the pocketfor avoid part jump out of pocket whit machine vibration ,and that start to be not really low cost to manufacture ,easy cost more that 200$ to manufacturewly not try to use GSM of fuji type feeder ? have ton on market and work not so bad and cost < 150$ even sometime < 80$also you may look how mydata make it feeder box 1 motor set drive 16 reel , use electo magnet ,for select witch clutch engage and advance desired reelso this permit to reduce electronic and motor O0 , it also use eccentric Gear for control acceleration/deceleration of tape advancehave fun

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2015, 02:36:47 pm
content: Alphatronique, glad you liked the feeder!We have a plastic piece that the part goes into where we pick up from to support the part from vibration. This plastic needs redone though. We plan on having a piece that can be put together that will work for all tape size not just 8mm tapes.We have access to a 4000W laser cutter. The price for us to make these is actually pretty cheap. We were planning on selling these feeders somewhere in the $150 price range.

author: Alphatronique
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2015, 05:02:46 pm
content: Hiyou will probabely not like the idea but you may reduce the tooth gear for tape feed and pick pat on top of the gearthis have advantage that tape hole and gear fix the tape in X ,Y ,Z direction ,then it permit to have only 1 part exposed whit covert tape removedthat was a must since it avoid that part jump out of pocket (think 0402 or smaller in future)but on your situation for low volume user what to use very short cut tape on feeder that another must to have for low volumewhit gear 5-8 cm back need extra 20 to 30 part on tape for compensated the lenght from supply gear to pick point and once tape shorter part was no longer usable on feederon my machine i may pick part up to last tape pocket , trust me on low volume that a must

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 08:20:20 pm
content: Do you have any target specs your trying to reach? And a ballpark price estimate?

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 05:20:06 pm
content: We don't really have any target specs for right now, because we have already passed the ones we had set. Unofficially, my new goal is to place faster than 1000 CPH while maintaining our current precision/accuracy.Originally we set out to make something better than the machines we have seen so far in the low cost "DIY PnP" market. We believe we have passed all of these goals so far. These goals were things like place faster than ~500 CPH, place 0.5mm pitch parts, have feeders (for David), and auto head changing to name a few.As for price we don't have a price yet, but we should have a price set in the weeks following the National Maker Faire on June 12-13. So, maybe last week of June or first week of July. Shortly after that we are planning to start our KickStarter campaign.Will keep you updated on all things here as they happen. I have been kind of quiet lately as I prepare for these maker faires. We are leaving for one in Cleveland Ohio in just a couple hours actually, so I'm still packing for that! Then, next weekend we have the National Maker Faire. Should have some good photos/videos from the faires!

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2015, 03:21:41 pm
content: Just got back from the National Maker Faire. We had a great time meeting everyone and introducing our machine to people who want to do small batch manufacturing. We got some amazing feedback from people who had bought Fire Pick Deltas and other PnP machines. These trips to the Maker Faires have been incredible valuable. For this reason we are planning to continue going to more!We got our first production units in, so it's time to do a timed build. This will let us see how many man hours goes into building the unit and then we can set a firm price for the units! Things are going to start moving fast for us again now that we are home so keep checking in to get all the latest updates.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 12:01:03 pm
content: We've had a breakthrough in our computer vision software. We had been using a template matching system. This new CV we have developed is much more accurate, and is not influenced by things such as changes in light. We are very excited about the applications for this alone!Back onto the Pick and Place. We are currently finishing up our first few production models, and I am excited to finally get pictures of them out in the world. They are so much prettier than our garage model prototype (I still love the prototype it looks so Steve Wozniak in the garage. Hence garage model)We have been working very hard to get this product ready for a KickStater campaign and we will start that campaign in the next two weeks. we will have many new photos, and much better videos than what is currently available on our YouTube when the new units are complete.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 05:15:40 pm
content: Hey everyone! Just got our invite to the Orlando and Milwaukee Maker Faires. Unfortunately, the Milwaukee and the World Maker Faires are on the same weekend, so If we get invited to the World Maker Faire we will be missing Milwaukee.If you are In the Orlando area be sure to check us out at the Orlando Maker Faire on September 12th & 13th!We are currently finishing up our first production models here are a few pictures of the progress.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2015, 06:01:26 pm
content: I wonder, how do you deal with SO-8 packages like this NXP I2C RTC clock, which... have no dot to mark pin 1 ?In comparision another package at similar size has nice dot on pin 1I had to look into this RTC datasheet and make photo to find out that this NXP I2C RTC clock is marked by cut left edge, but it looks like so many ways to confuse pick & place machineDo you have some training images of packages like this to recognize those small ICs orientation?Looking for simple manual pick & place now to be able at least quickly place elements for prototype PCBs.Good microscope is a must, else no chance to see anything...Improbable, how you are able pick & place those tiny chips at such speed?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2015, 06:19:17 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on July 01, 2015, 06:01:26 pmOrientation of parts is normally done by their orientation in the tape or tube - there are too many variants to reliably use pin-1 markings. And this would also need a downward looking camera, whearas most of the vision needs to be upward looking to see the pads.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2015, 06:33:51 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 01, 2015, 06:19:17 pmUnfortunatelly, removed this NXP RTC part from tape... to make photo while I'm interested in simple made at home pick & place machine with image software written in OpenCV and after a while, hopefully found this cut edge in its datasheet.Just trying to figure out which image processing tips from camera have to be performed to recognize those tiny chips, especially without dot marks on pin1. I was lucky, there was side light when made this photo, so this cut edge was visible, but I can't see it under small magnification in room ambient light at all

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2015, 12:26:56 pm
content: Hello Eneuro,Thanks for the question. Right now our computer vision does correct for the orientation of these parts, with or without the pin 1 marking. Sometimes we have seen that these style parts are oriented differently in the part tape, so we had to make our vision able to detect and correct for this.It would have been a lot easier to do this if they were all oriented the same direction in the tape, but in the end having vision that can correct for this becomes the far better solution.We have fallen behind on updates as we have been having really bad weather and power outages. I would like to have you a video soon showing you placements of parts similar to what you have shown.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 07:47:35 pm
content: We have fallen behind on our estimated schedule due to weather. Weather has plagued us for the past three weeks with power outages. We are inches from the finish line, but we've had such bad weather these last inches seem like miles. We are back on track now, and hope to continue to have valuable updates moving forward.We've updated the design of our feeders. These new feeders are about half the size as they previously were, and are still capable of holding full sized reels. We also fixed communication between the feeders. We are so close! We hope to have a video of the PnP placing an entire board in the new few days. Fingers crossed for good weather, and no other unforeseen delays!

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 08:17:11 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on July 08, 2015, 07:47:35 pmWhat about solar PV panels-free energy from the SunAnyway, I wonder how you catch those tiny packages? It is by means of vacuum pickup probably, but did you already showed how your pick up tool looks like?Just designing my custom vacuum pick up tool and always nice to see how something was made to do not broke open doorsWhat do you think about this DIY Manual SMD Vacuum Pick And Place Tool ?however, for my pick up I need slightly more complicated design, while idea is to have USB microscope visual camera right in the center as top view above placed package...

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 09:48:13 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on July 08, 2015, 07:47:35 pmHow many feeders do you have?I already saw available your machine videos, however can not spot something this another pick & place machine does after 5 mins-what those lights turned under some ICs positioned above does?Some kind of IR preheating bottom side of the chip?https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CRSLbo_8nTQ#t=443Those chips are additionaly rotated in this strange process, before some kind of lighting comes from the bottom, than ICs are placed on PCB

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2015, 07:20:12 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on July 08, 2015, 09:48:13 pmWe make feeders that we plan on selling. They are manufactured here, so we have as many as we can make.The process that you are seeing isn't to heat the bottom of the IC. It is to illuminate the bottom of the IC. Below the lights is a camera that is looking up at the bottom of the IC. This camera corrects for the rotational error of the IC, so when it is placed all the leads from the IC are correctly placed on the pads of the PCB.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2015, 07:22:02 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on July 08, 2015, 08:17:11 pmWe use vacuum tips from pick up pens as our pick up tools. We have different size pick up tools that our machine can automatically change if it needs to pick up a different size part.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2015, 07:22:44 pm
content: We have been invited to Maker Faire Atlanta! If you are in the area we hope to see you there!

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2015, 08:20:37 am
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on July 09, 2015, 07:20:12 pmThanksAnyway what about placing elements at choosen angles lets say 45 degs or any given angle ? The same camera for correction is used?It looks like it slow downs things, since each IC which require higher precision placement have to be taken into this corner for correctionFor example here below, for each D1..D12 diodes (LEDs) need to be placed at different angleDo you support placements of elements at given angle- not only aligned horizontal or vertical ?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2015, 08:34:05 am
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on July 09, 2015, 07:20:12 pmHow would that work with a board like thishttps://entertaininghacks.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/designsparkpcb.gifwhere red is the topside and blue the bottom side? Note that the bottom is mostly a ground plane.Would it work at all with a 4 layer board, where the inner layers are mostly power planes?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2015, 09:41:57 am
content: Quote from: eneuro on July 10, 2015, 08:20:37 amYou do the vision first to establish the offset and rotation of the picked part, then rotate it to the correct orientation, preferably during the journey from camera to placement position

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2015, 03:19:49 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 10, 2015, 09:41:57 amCorrect. It is as mikeselectricstuff says.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2015, 03:25:56 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 10, 2015, 08:34:05 amtggzzz, I'm not sure I understand the question. Could you explain a little bit more?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2015, 03:53:00 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on July 10, 2015, 03:25:56 pmOh, drat. I misread you point by concatenating two posts. I see you are only illuminating the underside of theic, not the PCB. Sorry to have wasted your time!

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2015, 03:57:02 pm
content: Ah ok I understand now. Yes, we light up the bottom of the IC not the PCB.No worries thanks for taking the time to read the thread!

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2015, 03:59:31 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on July 10, 2015, 03:19:49 pmDo you mean parts taken directly from feeder, I guess, since in the case of parts lying on working table freely distributed I see no need to use additional correction camera, since I have USB microscope in my machine head and it can see picked element all the time?I'm considering do tricky thing like, when picked element travels to destination, some kind of background is quickly inserted below picked element, so I have nice well defined backgroud for image recognition purposes, catched part above and visual camera on top adjusting part rotation to fit into final angle.I see, no reason to create such strange corner with additional lights to perform such simply task like rotating part before placement as seperate task as it was shown on video I've linked earlierMaybe do you have full PCB assembly video registered starting from brand new PCB and feeded parts with hopefully assembled board ready for "cooking"?I'd like to see it at 10 times slower speed to know better challenges we need to overcome to have fully assembled board without manual human work

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2015, 05:37:02 pm
content: Eneuro, are you building your own PnP? Yes, there is a lot of work, and lots of thought that have to go into these projects. One fix seems to always lead to one more problem hahaha.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2015, 07:44:33 pm
content: Yep, but from the begining its purpose it is help me assemble prototype boards and no need for fully automatic mode-just want to be able drive its axes using something like gesture recognition by processing accelerometer and magnetometer as user input interface and mayb even use VR googles to enable stereo mode with USB microscopes support.Playing with those tiny SMT parts is a huge challenge, especially when they throw from tapes on table and it is boring to use magnifing tools to recognize needed chips...I believe at some point mechanics and a few drivers will let build this machine PCBs itself in comfortable way, so will be able automate things not everything at once but step by step.Control visual cameras first, move axis manualy add motors to each axis.... see how they perform in typical assemby tasks and maybe finally I will be able assembly simple rather small SMT boards.It could help make inspection of production units too.It is interesting challengeBTW: I wonder, how much steps do you have when rotating those parts around Z vertical axis? Trying to calculate this based on typical smallest parts packages I might want to use.Quick estimation: 0.1mm movement at radius 10mm gives estimate 0.01  angle, so it leads to ~600 steps per revolution if I wanted such angle precision around Z axisCould you reveal how precise your rotational positioning is, eg. when correcting this? Probably a lot of steps, while you are dealing with such small parts, I never attempt to solder at home using my PnP?

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 03:00:17 pm
content: Hello all, we were just invited to the World Maker Faire in NYC. This will unfortunately make us unable to attend the Milwaukee Maker Faire as they are on the same days.Here is a list of the Maker Faires we will be attending in September and October.Orlando Maker Faire, Atlanta Maker Faire and World Maker Faire NYC.We are still waiting to see if we get an invite for the Pittsburgh Maker Faire and Maryland Maker Faire. This will complete our Maker Faire schedule for 2015.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2015, 06:48:30 pm
content: Official schedule for those who would like to see the machine in person.Cincinnati Ohio Mini Maker Faire August 28,29Orlando Maker Faire (Florida) September 12, 13Maryland maker Faire September 20World Maker Faire (New York, Queens) September 26,27Atlanta Maker Faire (Georgia) October 3,4Pittsburgh Maker Faire October 10,11

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2015, 06:58:00 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on July 28, 2015, 06:48:30 pmI see noyoutubeschedule to see complete process of example PCB assembly using this thing...

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2015, 07:05:28 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on July 28, 2015, 06:58:00 pmWe have no planned date for a YouTube video release, but we imagine there will be a full video out before the next Maker Faire.I'd estimate 2-4 weeks from now.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 03:32:31 pm
content: https://youtu.be/DLqMLY7oD14Our latest test video. This video is a test to see where errors would occur. We were testing to see if our vision could recognize parts in our feeders, parts in different kinds of trays, and parts from cut tape. We were also testing the automatic tool changer and the upward looking camera (located between the auto feeders). The test placement was successful from all feeder types, and we will now be adding more error checks as well as optimizing for increased speed. This test was NOT meant to show the current speed of the pick and place.There are some obvious things that need to be fixed/optimized. We are currently working to get these things done. We wanted to wait to post another video till we had those things ready, however, we have had a few people write in wanting to see the progress we have made.We welcome any and all feedback.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 03:13:13 pm
content: After lots of testing we successfully did our first small batch run on the machine. We will be making a new video, and starting our KickStarter soon!

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 11:56:21 am
content: Here is our official project video! You can see it all here! Auto tool changing, multi-board placement, IC placement, small part placement, placement of caps, Software/UI, computer vision, and more. Please take some time to watch the video and let us know what you think. This is only the beginning! This is a product we will be using ourselves and we will be continuously updating the software and hardware to keep the machine as awesome as possible!https://youtu.be/Ny99KzsySHE

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 02:14:41 pm
content: So how can you improve the speed? It looks like it currently does 3-4 parts per minute compared to the old standby TM220 that does over 100. And at that speed the paste will dry up before a reasonable complex board is populated....

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 02:29:40 pm
content: That is the slowed-down demo mode right ..? What's the actual CPH?Why does it rotate the part while sitting over the camera, instead of measuring the rotation & offsets and rotating on the way to the placement position?How well do those feeders work with plastic tapes?What aboiyr really wide (24mm) plastic tapes?

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 03:19:37 pm
content: With all the vision corrections, and part detection it slows it down a lot. With everything on, for every part, it runs at about 300 parts per hour. Mostly, it is the angular alignment that takes so long. This is something that we are actively working on, and for the purposes of the video in my previous post we are doing angular alignment on all parts which isn't necessary.Our machine makes heavy use of computer vision, and there is an opportunity to make the processing faster by having a graphics card perform some of those vision tasks instead of having the computer's processor do them. This development is in the works now, and is expected to greatly speed up the CV processing.However, with the angular alignment and part detection turned off to mimic more how the TM220 works (no vision) then the speed jumps up to about 850 parts per hour. The "X" and "Y" vision alignments will remain on always. You can see this in the video below. We have since this video made some modifications to the machine, and expect it to be somewhat faster than shown in this video with the said parameters turned off.https://youtu.be/C7Pi4akL5ogIf you need to do angular alignment for all parts the current speed is very slow. For our board in the video we really only need the angular alignment for the IC placements.The reason it doesn't find the angular correction, and do it on the fly is because there is slack in the A-axis belt. This is a fault in our currently displayed pick head. We have received in the parts for a new pick head that will remedy this issue and allow us to do just that.As for the feeders, they are actually really great and have lots of torque, but I'll test them out and get back to you on the 24 mm plastic tapes.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 06:09:28 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 08, 2015, 03:19:37 pmLets make quick calcualtions: 1 hour is 3600 seconds this means that you have ONLY 1 part per 3600/300= 12 seconds ?I'd expect something like 10x times faster from machines like those... else at this speed it could be boring to watch such long PCB assemblyIt looks like humans can be faster, with a litte help to handle those parts automatically, so maybe may not low cost, but my cheap PnP will be faster even in manual mode?Anyway, thanks for sharing this interesting video-probably I'll try to challenge you in... manual mode with a little help with automated parts handling and... human brain etc, especially for small PCBs, with well known BOM.BTW: Which could be estimated low cost of your PnP if it were available to buy?Update: There is problem with those videos-it looks like you recorded it in very bad room lighting conditions and a lot of reflections from point light sourcesWouldn't you created something like ring or sphere with low power LEDs but plenty of them distributed around workpiece machine table to help its CV recognize things?Probably the first thing I'd like to do is create perfect lighting conditions when CV is implemented into this thing... but ok, this is only my vision how my working table lighting for PCBs assembly will look like...To much reflections makes those videos very difficult to watch... To avoid any reflection eg. when making amateur photos with flash, I've covered flash with white paper, so no problem with flash from small distances even without great external lighting, so for professional video recording or photography I think, smooth light is a must, else those reflections on PCB destroys image...and I wonder if it doesn't confuse machine CV?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 06:18:37 pm
content: You seem to be wasting a lot of time hanging around the camera - it should just take a snap and figure out rotation etc. on its way to the placement position.IMO anytyhing below 1000cph isn't worth spending significant money on. You will be killed by newer Chinese machines with vision.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 06:23:31 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 08, 2015, 06:18:37 pmI would agree, 300cph makes it hard to be excited about. It would be somewhat faster than a human, especially considering the machine does not fatigue mentally and physically, but it it still slow, slow, slow. For pro use - it's useless. For semi-pro/hobby use, it's cost/performance is not there.Not sure what you are up against, but I would suggest you make it much faster or prepare for very modest sales. How much is this expected to cost?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 06:58:35 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 08, 2015, 11:56:21 amWith all due respect, i fell asleep after 3 minutes of watching.Not sure what cv software you using, if it is OpenCV, i just finished a project with it in the other tread and i think it was slow as hell.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 07:12:49 pm
content: Thanks for the feedback, Eneuro quoted a small section of text. The full text is "With everything on, for every part, it runs at about 300 parts per hour."With 0603's and 0805's and so on you don't really need angular alignment. This can be turned off for these parts. You really only need it for 0402's and smaller and IC's. We left it on for every part during the video to show that it is a capability we have with our PnP.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 08, 2015, 06:18:37 pmI tried to answer this in my last post. We are wasting a lot of time over the camera currently. The reason we are is because we have to wait and see if the rotation got applied correctly. Currently there is backlash in the angular alignment belt this is currently being worked on. When this is fixed we will be able to quickly take a snap shot and apply the correct in route to the placement area.Quote from: rx8pilot on September 08, 2015, 06:23:31 pmHaha yes, we were not planning on stopping now.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 07:27:52 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on September 08, 2015, 06:58:35 pmWith modern GPUs OpenCV can be very fast even on tablets with a lot of GPU cores available in some NVidia crated for gamers, but of course it require design this CV system with this acceleration support in mind to be able recompile it with GPU enabled or disabled eg. in complile time, just by passing to makefile -DGPU or as environment variable in Unix/Linux something like this which could help optimize written OpenCV code and speed up critical parts of CV system;)Anyway, when watched 2nd video we have on top right list in YT this robot and this is really great concept which creates brains storms howto DIY at home something like this, but probably we need a lot of steps in those four motors on top, to be able translate its angular rotation of those arms to decent precision needed to place things, but yeah it looks great and... fastHigh-Speed Pick & Place Robots by Bastian SolutionsHow do you want compete with those 100 pick & places per.... minute? 6000 per hour?High Speed Adept Quattro Robot handling steel balls on conveyorBTW: Looking at this I've improoved my PnP machine mechanics a lot and... I've now clear vision howto build its axis, so after some brake to let brain find solution to this problem which puzzled me for a few weeks now it is time tomy concept shown in other thread and keep it going to speed up manual assembly first, than try automate this and make faster than humans can do it- like those amazing robots linked above

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 03:21:07 am
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 08, 2015, 03:19:37 pmStill, that nearly an order of magnitude slower than the TM220 that does 7000 cph...The X and Y rapids seems quite fast, so it must be the dead slow Z axis that does it. Most hobbyist-style machines puts the components *really* slowly and carefully - this in contrast to the "real" machines that slams down the component with such speed that I'm amazed that the solderpaste doesn't end up at the walls in the room. ^_^

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 05:01:08 am
content: Just for reference, I just hand placed 7 PCBs with 120 parts per board at about 200cph. This is the average speed - NOT the burst speed. The parts are very well organized and sequenced and I have the PCB memorized. I also have a carefully worked out placement bench. There are about 10 fine pitch .4mm parts that are slower and some SOD-523's that are slower than the 0805's. This info is only to provide a reference for how a slow PnP can compare - it is still faster and less tedious while placing parts.I will still say that even though 300cph from an automatic machine that can do it all day long is always going to be better than hand placing - it would be nice to see it go up to 800-1000cph. The TM-220 (which I have not used or own) seems like a machine that can only do the big parts without crossing your fingers and relying on 'Hope'. Therefore I will discount that model as a viable option to be a complete solution.I have a Quad 4000C that is just getting up and running. It is rated at 3600cph, but in reality probably around 3000 or maybe a little less depending on the optimization of the feeders. At that rate, it is faster than I can print the solder paste and get them through the batch oven. The good part is that I can have 80+ feeders on it at once so setup is super easy. All the typical parts are on the machine all the time. Tube feeders, strip feeders, matrix trays, custom trays, in addition to all the reel feeders. This is where the time savings are for me. If I have to load the machine for every PCB, I would be super slow the and 3000cph would barely be noticed after loading and verifying the machine which takes a while if done from scratch. Another reference point is that this machine was around $6k or so.Still trying to figure out the target audience for this machine though. I got a used commercial model because my living will depend on this machine. The only reason I got it was because I was hand placing tens of thousands of parts per month. For a hobbyist, why would you need (want) this? For a professional, is it helpful/reliable enough?Again, anyone know what the target pricing is for it? Is LitePlacer getting anywhere with theirs?

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 02:24:00 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on September 09, 2015, 05:01:08 amThis one in action?PPM Quad 4000C IVC 4C pick and place demo & feeder setupThis kind of machines can fill pads with solder paste or it could be too slow, so it is printed instead to speed up things?

author: quantalume
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 02:36:32 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on September 09, 2015, 05:01:08 amAt that price point, what sort of shape was the machine in when you obtained it? How much work was involved in getting it running? Thanks.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 02:51:42 pm
content: It seems like the big topic is speed.We are at about 750 CPH with the angular vision (upward looking camera) only being used on the parts that need it. We are at about 300 CPH with angular corrections being used on every part.Please understand that this isn't the final specs of the machine. We literally just got everything working pretty flawlessly about 2 weeks ago. This is an ongoing project and we are still currently working to make it faster. Speed was the lowest thing on our list of "things to do" because what is speed if the machine doesn't work.As other have said we are wasting a lot of time over the upward looking camera, and we have very slow movement in the z-axis. These are both true. We are working on these as I write this post! We have a new head design that will use a solenoid for the z-axis making this much faster. Also, the new head design will remedy the issue with the A-axis belt backlash. The reason we are waiting over the upward looking camera is because when we tell the PnP to rotate the part 3 degrees we don't know if it's actually going to rotate 3 degrees because of the backlash in the belt. With the new head we will be able to tell it to rotate 3 degrees and know that's what's going to happen, so with this we could move off the upward looking camera much faster.First make it work, then make it fast.

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 03:42:09 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 09, 2015, 02:51:42 pmIs it possible to stop a solenoid in "mid-flight" to accommodate for parts with varying height?

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 03:50:51 pm
content: Quote from: matseng on September 09, 2015, 03:42:09 pmNo, the solenoid will go until it is stopped by the part.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 04:09:58 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 09, 2015, 03:50:51 pmThat sounds like a major fail.You need variable height, both to deal with board height and also when picking from random strips, trays etc.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 04:54:12 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 09, 2015, 04:09:58 pmThe z-axis screw is still there. We are able to move up and down to variable heights. The idea of the solenoid is so when we arrive over the part we can shoot the solenoid down very quickly to do the pick ups and placements.Sorry I re-read my previous posts, I should have said "We have a new head design that will use a solenoid in conjunction with the existing z-axis"Yes, we must have the a way to move up and down other than the solenoid, or we wouldn't be able to do head changes and many other things we are currently doing. Sorry for the confusion.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 05:08:57 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 09, 2015, 02:51:42 pmThis is true....but CPH is not the only factor in speed. For a high-mix task (making small numbers of many PCB's), setup time can easily be longer than run time. That has been my own personal challenge. I needed a solution that could offer very fast change from design to design to be useful. This would allow me to do 10pcs of 3 PCB's for a last second demand from a customer and immediately follow that with populating a few prototypes. I wrote a ULP and some other glue software to make a direct path from Eagle to the PNP machine so that programming is extremely simple regardless of what is on the PCB. For physical setup, the goal is to keep 80+ parts in the machine all the time that covers most of my designs and upcoming prototypes. Changing only a few parts per run will ensure a super fast changeover.That is something that should be considered for an entry level machine. Since you will not likely be able to fit 80+ feeders, the rest of the design needs to be very easy to setup. If the user spends a ton of time setting up the machine it does not matter how many CPH it can muster - if the PCB could have been build by hand during the setup time.Once again, I am still hoping to better understand the target customer for this solution. I cannot think of a use case for it that makes sense other than it is neat to have a pick and place machine. Anyone?Quote from: quantalume on September 09, 2015, 02:36:32 pmOFF TOPIC:It was very dirty and needed service. I learned by doing and it took about 3 weeks (on and off) to get it to full function. Lots of rubber and urethane parts were replaced and I did significant updates to the control PC and power system. Cleaning, lubing, aligning, and inspecting. The next and last step to being useful to me is making PCB holders for odd shape PCB's. The machine can only clamp onto square boards with a dimension bigger than 3" or so. I just need to finish the universal PCB holder trays. At this point, it is in amazing shape and I have piles of feeders. I know all the details of it and can easily service most issues myself (I am a machinist as well so the mechanics are easy to deal with)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 05:28:17 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on September 09, 2015, 05:08:57 pmVery true.I use similar reasoning to instantly ignore most "labour saving" kitchen gadgets - especially when cleaning time is included!

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 06:30:21 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 09, 2015, 04:54:12 pmI have no idea about what solenoid you are talking about, but it looks like reinventing a wheelI will probably use one of those linear motors-they are much faster than your CV system for the moment and I think that even when you improove CV code, I do not know how fast your cemeras are (how many frames per second CV now performs) high speed camera is a must or some kind of digital camera to be able shoot photo at given position very fast without motion blur effects.Yaskawa Linear Motors in MotionBTW: What kind of motors did you used for horizontal and vertical movement for the moment?OK. It seams you are using balls screw, so... those linear motors are 50% faster and achieve 9cycles/second with speed up to 5m/sTo outperform your PnP I need to be ahead and.. it looks like I'm thanks to advances in linear motors technologyAnyway, I like those feeders from Quad PnP linked above, but probably I will go into feeders placement which will allow replace all for given PCB at once, so very little time needed to setup for another boards and I'd rather put them on the bottom of workpiece table, but we'll see what happends soonAnother option is might be smart feeders which will take ICs from reels in parallel to running PnP and place at given position on working table or separate system to provide ICs sorted in th eorder assembly needs them- from many feeders on line ready to reach by main assembly head always at one place instead of jumping each time to different feeder position-loosing time to reach another partSo, this will allow provide stream of ICs (parts) ready to PnP while they are will be already taken from reels, what ever we have and in the order machine wants them, so its only task will be optimize and go always to the same position for another IC part to PnP and since another system will prepare those parts in parallel with assembly head, there is no overhead and loosing time to move to given reel or any limits to the amount ICs per board since this will be task for other machine-lets say feeder machine, which will be always ready to give main assembly head information what kind of IC is redy to take and main assembly head will be able order any IC on demand (out of order) while placing previous one and it will be feeder machine task to replace current part with another requested if something strange happends-assembly head misses part or destroys, etc.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 07:40:00 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on September 09, 2015, 06:30:21 pmThe solenoid will be what shoots the pick up tip down to grab the part. This is the fastest solution for this, faster than linear rails. The ball screw only has to travel short distances now with the inclusion of the solenoid, so speed here doesn't really matter anymore. The ball screw will only need to move for head changing and varying part heights, board heights. I hope at some point we will be too fast for the ball screw and have to change to something faster!I would much like to see your machine can you please provide a link?

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 07:43:57 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on September 09, 2015, 06:30:21 pmWe are using Nema 17 stepper motors at the moment.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 07:46:43 pm
content: The Quad feeders are very simple and would be easy to make. The official ones are rather robust, but could be simplified to allow easier manufacturing. There are a lot of electronics that can simplified as well. These feeders are old skool but work very well.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 07:48:20 pm
content: QuoteBall screw is the wrong choice for Z axis. Rack & pinion or toothed belt would be better.using a solenoid to patch-up an inadequate drive is a poor solution.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 08:24:29 pm
content: why is a ball screw a problem? Seems that is a normal solution.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 08:31:01 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on September 09, 2015, 08:24:29 pmMy pick/place uses rack & pinion. I've not seen the inside of many others.I was assuming this was the reason for the slowness being mentioned.To get decent Z speed from a screw, you'd probably either need a shallow pitch or fairly fast motor rotation. You don't really need the force that a screw can provide, so I'd think a lower gearing ratio would be more efficient.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 09:54:43 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 09, 2015, 07:43:57 pmReally? ThoseStepper motor - NEMA-17 size - 200 steps/rev, 12V 350mA $14.00ones?Do you overload them to get higher power (RPM) while when we take 12V*0.35A= 4.2W ONLY of input nominal power ? Which is the mass of this PnP moving head?With two motors you have less than 10W nominal electric power available or I missed something?Those motors have 200 steps/rev, so get linear speed of 1m/s with 1mm offset/rev, we have 100 such small 0.001 m movements, so it looks like we need spin those steppers to 6000 RPM (100Hz) and make 20000 steps per second.What could be theoretical speed in horizontal/vertical with this limited nominal power in those motors?Maybe do you have average stats of head speed in XY and Z axis to estimate its theoretical maximum performance, but probably motors maximum available power must limit this speed whatever axis system will be choosen-it looks like you have less than 10W input power i XY, so when we take ? head mass moving back and forward we could try estimate maximum theoretical speed possible based on energy available only.Anyway, I'd like to use maybe even two headers in my solution moving in horizontal position, so it could be nice use linear motors with two of such heads on one horizontal transmission line, so ball screw probably not a solution for me, so that is why I'm interested in linear motors insteadIdea is that while one of the headers will do PnP and asembly taken part, second PnP head will in parallel go for another part and vice verse, so with the same linear speeds two times more parts can be placed by one PnP machine with additional mentioned feeder machineThose linear motors have builtin high precision encoders as I know, so I can imagine those motors can be pushed hard based on distance to move and later slow down quicly (energy can be recovered back), so it looks like they can move much faster in average than ball screw lines, since longer distances can be made without need to achieve huge RPMs-just shoot moving part like magnetic gun

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 08:28:03 am
content: QuoteIt's not THAT simple!A properly driven step motor is driven from a power stage with active current limiting powered with a voltage MUCH (usually 10-20 times) higher than the rated coil voltage of the motor (to overcome the inductance of the winding).Unfortunately the datasheet of the motor at Adafruit that you link to doesn't have a speed torque/torque curve so I'll use another motor as an example, specifically the MOONS MS17HD4P4150 NEMA17 motor.It has a rated current of 1.5A and coil resistance of 1.7ohm putting the rated coil voltage at 2.55V do you really think it will be able to put out 3.8W only?Look at the speed/torque curve inDatasheet. When driven from a 36V supply at 1.5A it will do roughly 0.17Nm at 1200rpm - that's about 21W ofmechanicalpower, not 3.8W.Oh, and this is not overloading the motor, this is driving it properly.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 05:02:59 pm
content: Quote from: H.O on September 10, 2015, 08:28:03 amMaybe, those specs are not good information source-I've linked it just to ask topic owner if this is thhose motors used

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 05:31:26 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 09, 2015, 07:40:00 pmNo problem, follow this thread from time to time and you will see one head version soon, since I need some help in manual SMD soldering, so will spend more time on this my PnP concept prototype project there:Cheap recognition & pick & place & reflow oven solder machine for tiny PCBs

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 06:24:32 pm
content: We will be leaving today to attend the Orlando Maker Faire September 12th and 13th! If anyone is in the area we hope to see you there!http://www.makerfaireorlando.com/

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2015, 01:40:31 pm
content: Hey everyone we we accepted by KickStarter and have launched KickStarters first PnP project campaign!https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/protovoltaics/pick-and-place-machine-by-protovoltaicsWe had a lot of interest in the machine at the Orlando maker faire, so we decided to go ahead a launch our KickStarter, and have it run through the remaining faires we will be attending. The entry level price for the machine is $6000 fully assembled. Machines ordered on KS are due to ship in December.We are back at work on the machine to get the speed up above 1000 components per hour and we plan on meeting this before the next faire. We will update the video as soon as we can. We have already increased the speed a lot from removing the belt that we were using to rotate the part.Someone asked who are market was, we have had interest from people who do small batch runs and prototypes, maker spaces, academic groups have showed the most interest so far, and from businesses that typically have they work sent off, but are interested in something to help with surge protection. (when they need a few extra boards fast, and it doesn't make sense to send them overseas.)

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2015, 03:27:53 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 15, 2015, 01:40:31 pmShipment included? How much does it weight fully assembled?Anyway, I'm looking for my PnP price... lower than $1000, to have faster ROI even making not too many PCBs a month, but placing SMD is boring, so yep I want make it cheapYou are talking about december.. this year or next?

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2015, 03:51:00 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on September 15, 2015, 03:27:53 pmFor the KickStarter Shipping is included. It's about 30 lbs with the control cabinet and packaging.Shipments will start this year December 2015.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 12:03:05 am
content: This new head design will eliminate all of the backlash that we currently have. It also brings rigidly mounted cameras that will allow us to move faster. Previously, we had to run slower than top speed just so our cameras wouldn't move off target due to rapid accelerations and decelerations.Right now we have to waste a bunch of time over the upward looking camera while we confirm that our rotational correction has been applied. This is because of the backlash in the system. The computer vision tells us that we have to rotate, say 5 degrees, to have the part properly aligned, however when we tell the motor to turn by 5 degrees it really doesn't turn 5 degrees because our belt system has slack in it. Some of the motor's movement is just to take up the slack in the belt instead of actually rotating the part. We end up needing to use the computer vision to confirm that the part was actually rotated correctly and this means having to hang out over the upward camera until the part is actually fully rotated to the proper orientation.The new head will eliminate all of this wasted time. The new design has no belt, so we'll be able to take an image of the part, and then immediately start flying to the place location. On our way there we should get the feedback from the computer vision saying what the angular offset is, and we can correct it on the fly. This is the first major step to getting us to over 1000 cph (components per hour).The new head has been mounted on our prototype, but we need a bracket to mount a limit switch to so that we know when we make contact with the pick-up tip. We have time scheduled late tomorrow with the laser cutter, so we should be able to start running trials with the new head design on Thursday.We're also trying a NEMA 23 motor on the z-axis to see if there's any speed difference versus the old NEMA 17.The last change we applied today was a new feeder divider that will allow us to reconfigure the incoming feeders for the various types of SMT reels out there from 8mm to 44mm.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 07:25:35 am
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 16, 2015, 12:03:05 amIt looks like in my PnP I solved rotation of parts much easier and in parallel with assembly head (no need to rotate anything during pick & place) since... parts are already rotated by feeder machine, so this means very simply assembly head and... faster PnP, while two machines (feeder and assembly head) cooperate together in PnP task

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 11:54:22 am
content: Quote from: eneuro on September 16, 2015, 07:25:35 amIf you assume the parts in the feeders are rotated perfectly in the feeders you will never be able to place small / low pitch parts. You will need a way to rotate these parts if you want any kind of reliability. Also, we ran into some parts in tray feeders that were not oriented the same way as others.Our head is attached now, and we are going to laser cut the last piece we need now! Hopfully a new video tomorrow?

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 06:08:51 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 16, 2015, 11:54:22 amIt is much faster make small adjustments while we have part prepared to PnP, I mean very close to perfect fit, than do all this job in the fly, so yep small adjustment might be needed for final placement, but time needed for those tiny adjustment can be much smaller when very small angle need to be chamged, which can lead to huge speed improvements in the case fast PnP assembly head is used like those 3axis ultra fast pick & place robots:Ultra Fast Pick & Place Robot - FANUC's New Three-Axis Delta Robot Packs Small BatteriesBTW: It weights less than your PnP machine, but for sure costs much more, I guess.Anyway, I've ordered steell balls today from reliable local bearings supplier, to create axis similar to those used in this ultra fast robot and we'll spot weld them on friday, I hope, to see how it works and if it coulbe usable, so theres is some time to create 3D njumeric model of this thing to simulate complex 3D space positioning, based on dimensions of ordered steel balls and robot arms axis dimensionsIt is a lot of fun trying to create such fast robot in DIY projectGood luck, I want hit another PnP market with much cheaper PnP available for more electronics and CNC hobbysts from my neighbourhood and without any Kick(off)starter and similar company which earns close to 10% or more on someones ideas, instead people donate us from time to time via Bitcoin (cheap and safe moneys transfers quickly exchanged to real $es), so we are very motivated to deliver as fast as possible something usable and everybody are happy- we can save those 10% which had to else benefit doggy Indiegogo, etc, promoting sometimes stupid, useless ideas, which owners claims they are smarter than... Nobel price winners scientists

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 07:49:20 am
content: Quote from: eneuro on September 16, 2015, 06:08:51 pmYou can do the rotation during the time the part is moving from the vision location to the placement location, it shouldn't add any time for most placement positions.I can't see how it can make sense to do it anywhere other than on the head.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 08:25:12 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 18, 2015, 07:49:20 amI see more challenge making huge rotation during the time the part is moving, unless we have stored in CV memory perfect image when part was lying in the feeder or some kind of additional artificial background below taken part, since when part is moving fast there will unpredictable crappy background, so very difficult to make another correction photo while moving and during placement we have our PCB in the bacground, so not perfect conditions for image segmentation (we have to deal with many different PCB colours, printed text silk descriptions, etc.I didn't tested this idea of feeder machine providing exactly rotated and aligned parts which are scheduled for PnP by assembly head unit, but there i no question about it, that those rotation could be made using another CV in parallel with assembly head doing mainly only pure PnP job.I do not know if it works, but I will go this way in my PnP and we'll see how it works in practice...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 10:29:24 am
content: You misunderstand. You pick it, image it as soon as you can, then as you move to the place location, you do the rotation in time that you need to spend anyway moving to the place location.My Versatronics does this very efficiently - when the head moves fully up, it flips a mirror under the part at 45 degrees to a horizontal camera so it can image while moving.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 11:00:27 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 18, 2015, 10:29:24 amWow do you have some video of this Mike?

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 11:20:08 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 18, 2015, 11:00:27 amHe does :-)https://youtu.be/ZaqvEftw7aI?t=5m47s

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 12:34:29 pm
content: Quote from: matseng on September 18, 2015, 11:20:08 amThanks! That is some big device that head wow.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 01:07:28 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 18, 2015, 12:34:29 pmThe machine has origins in an earlier version that was designed to do CNC, so it's probably more heavily built than it needs to be.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 01:08:55 pm
content: That's a great video! Cool looking machine!

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 07:32:25 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 18, 2015, 10:29:24 amAnyway, it looks like there is no top view of part with PCB on the bottom and 45 degs mirror is used only to rotate part to final position?I mean, when part is placed on PCB this machine has a chance to see how part touches PCB and part pins matches PCB pads or do it at blind based on memorized position (coordinates)?Quite tricky mirror flipping-thanks for this tip, we'll see maybe it will be the only way to make final high precision rotation adjustment

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 07:44:22 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on September 18, 2015, 07:32:25 pmWhy would you want to downwards image the part or the PCB?You can't image the PCB for alignment as the pads are covered in solder paste.The only use for a downward camera is fiducials.You could probably adapt the mirror arrangement to flip one of 2 ways to look down for fids, but cameras are cheap so you might as well have a dedicated one for that.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 07:52:41 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 18, 2015, 07:44:22 pmWe are look downward looking vision to see the pads. Our vision sees pads with or without paste applied.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 08:18:19 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 18, 2015, 07:44:22 pmWhen you design PCB eg. silk layout in the mind of to help PnP machine do its job faster, than pad covered by solder paste is not such a big dealEspecially, when you can see invisible with.... thermal image cameras, with a little help of laser... or induction heater hidden in assebly head, even track covered by solder mask can be unveiledI'm designing my PnP not only for PCB assembly, while I'd like to use it too for automatic sorting and packaging pieces of wood so considering different options available.Flipping mirror over picked part fits many requirements, since it reflects not only visible light but IR too

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 08:46:57 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 18, 2015, 07:52:41 pmSo how does it see through the paste to find the pad edge?

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 09:06:30 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 18, 2015, 08:46:57 pmWe'll unfortunately we aren't an open source project, but you can see us aligning over the placement areas in our videos. You will see the head move to the place location, and then move slightly again. This slight movement is the CV correcting for offsets.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 09:20:35 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 18, 2015, 09:06:30 pmUhhhhhh....open source or not, there is no practical way to see through solder paste. Looking at bare pads is useless and looking at paste as an alignment aid is also useless. This is why any/all pro machines use fiducial marks instead of the component pads.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 09:45:53 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 18, 2015, 09:06:30 pmUsing vision to compensate for poorer accuracy of low-cost mechanics seems like a nice idea, but the paste is going to be a major limitation on the ultimate performance. If the paste print is offset, you still want to place on the pad centre, not the paste centre. And as for trying to do it with dispensed paste, good luck with that....It is also likely to be a decreasingly viable solution as pad sizes decrease, which is exactly when you need better accuracy.IMO a better approach to replacing expensive precision mechanics with cheaper electronics & software would be to find a way to very accurately measure the head position, and use that in a closed-loop system. something like laser interferometry or structured light could perhaps be viable.Maybe even an upward-looking camera imaging an overhead grid

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 09:57:17 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 16, 2015, 12:03:05 amI'm not convinced steppers are the optimum answer for z and theta, as they are large and heavy, just what you don't want on something you want to move quickly & accurately.Certainly for theta, the torque required is negligible, and a small gearmotor+encoder servo ought to be viable. The AMS magnetic rotary encoders might be worth a look. these look capable of better than 0.1 degree accuracy.Similarly the Z axis, provided the weight is low, may be amenable to something a lot smaller an lighter than a stepper. Maybe rack & pinion or captive toothed belt, or band like they used to use on hard disks, plus a linear strip encoder.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 10:09:33 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 18, 2015, 09:57:17 pmYou'll see some of these changes in our new video actually

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 10:13:28 pm
content: Yes, you will have to use a stencil for the paste. These are actually very accurate. Also, some of the errors the paste will correct in reflow.We are testing the limitations of the machine week after next week, and tomorrow we are testing more with 01005's. We successfully placed our first 01005 today using our vision system.I'll see if I can throw some solder paste down on it and place one. More videos to come!

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 10:31:30 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on September 18, 2015, 09:20:35 pmIn thisFiducial Mark Design Guidelineswe can find that not only global, but local fiducials marks can be used, but it will depend on density of parts on PCB, etc, so when I'll have at home my own PnP, than I can use for example silk layer to create local fiducials marks, to do paint them rather on solder mask, than recomended exposed copper, because of simply there can be no space between tracks or to close.QuoteQuoteQuoteSo, we can have on PCB some hints printed for PnP machine and it can be local fiducial marks, but in practice I'll have them as mentioned rather not as standard plated copper at least 1mm, etc, but hidden on white text silk layer, instead of useless text descriptions of PCB parts, since this information is useless in automated assembly, but painting local fiducial marks instead can help assembly head make faster moves on long distances (less precision) and make high precision final slower movement based on those local fiducial marks, which could be eg..... part of lets say 1mm x 1mm grid printed in silk text layer on PCBOf course expensive PnP machines do not need this and for them probably global fiducial marks are enougth, but when I'm looking for custom cheap PnP machine, than I can take advantage of oadditional marks on PCB which will create pattern easy to recognize in assembly head CV which will help make more precise parts placements at decent speedWho cares how beautifull PCB is-the only thing matters for electrons to flow is copper layer, especially when such PCB is later hidden in epoxy enclosure, etc.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 10:55:32 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on September 18, 2015, 10:31:30 pmAs a supplier of such items, I care.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 11:12:58 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 18, 2015, 10:55:32 pmMaybe I'm more interested in overall quality, rather than silk text descriptions, which are useless without circuit schematics.In the age of augmented reality, by encoding in those many local fiducials marks PCB board hash (unique ID) one can download this PCB schematics on the fly and apply to image from visual camera in his phone/tablet, so no need to print anything more than copper layer and those marks...I want my PCBs (product of my innovation- not items) without "Made in China" labels, but "Made in Europe" including assembly, so I do not care too much, if there will be any paint art on those PCBs....I will use mentioned augumented reality instead...and end customers will get enougth information without messing with China characters on their PCBs

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 05:19:06 am
content: I am not a seasoned expert, but on my machine the local fiducials are not necessary. So far, just using panel fiducials is enough to get very precise placement on fine pitch parts. If I was placing super high value FPGA's on a really big PCB, I may use them.I cannot figure out why anyone would bother trying to use pads, especially if they have paste on them. Fids are so easy to place and reference and they offer all the geometric corrections you will need.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 06:24:56 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on September 19, 2015, 05:19:06 amThe only reason would be if your mechanics weren't sufficiently repeatable to get enough accuracy for the placement position.Ifit weren't for the paste, visioning the pad as part of a closed-loop system would be a neat way to allow the use of much cheaper and less accurate mechanics.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2015, 03:46:48 pm
content: Just a few days off from the World Maker Faire in NYC! We are very excited to be going. We have been making a lot of progress since the Orlando Faire! The new cameras we are using don't have lights on them, so we had to add in a ring light. We can do a lot more with these new cameras, and adding a ring light in wasn't too much work.If you are in the New York area please look into attending the faire, even if you don't stop by our booth!

author: Godzil
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2015, 04:06:48 pm
content: Wow I love your PnP machine, just to expensive for me, but I like itBy the way, is there any PnP machine using parallel arms instead of serial like this one?

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2015, 04:50:22 pm
content: Quote from: Godzil on September 22, 2015, 04:06:48 pmI believe you are referring to mike's machine? Our machine is a cartesian, gantry robot.The serial PnP is really cool I agree. I have not seen a parallel PnP robot.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2015, 09:06:50 pm
content: Quote from: Godzil on September 22, 2015, 04:06:48 pmDo you mean something like this one from this linkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_manipulator?I develop similar robot to this ultra fast PnP and this week testing my spot welder to use braze welding to connect different parts of my machine made of different materials (metals)EEvblog: Cheap recognition & pick & place & reflow oven solder machine for tiny PCBsMore progress will be reported in this thread and on my YT robot channel soon-waiting for approval for AdSense, etc...to be able maybe monetize those videosWhen, you follow those videos and buy a few parts manufactured by my team and you will be able assembly yourself such robot.It will be very cheap thanks to simple mechanics and advanced image processingI'll send links to this online PnP robot build course with detailed instructions howto assembly and make DIY made at home PnP for pennies

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2015, 10:03:27 pm
content: Maybe you could do a P&P based on this principle....

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2015, 03:30:05 pm
content: We are back now and we had a lot of fun at the World Maker faire! We got to meet Juha (makes Liteplacer) whose machine has been shown on EEVblog. We got interviewed by EDN, Silhouette and more. We will post links to those interviews as soon as we are allowed.We had a lot of interest in the machine from academic institutions and small/large businesses, all of which are unable to spend funds on backing KickStarter campaigns. Due to the large amount of interest we had at the faire we will be selling the pnp as a product even if the KS goes unfunded.If anyone has interest in the machine and is unable to use KS to purchase a unit we ask that you please email ryan.riegel@protovoltaics.com for more info.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 05:57:12 pm
content: We have a lot of people interested in purchasing a machine, one of which requires us to prove our worth, and we always like a good challenge!To meet the expectations of the customer we have to add several new features. These new features will include the ability to place double sided boards and to have a "vibrafeed" for parts that come in tube trays. Both of which shouldn't be too hard to add.We are working on getting this done ASAP! We are also making improvements to the error detection. Soon we will be able to tell much earlier if we had a part pick up failure.Lastly, we are making changes to some areas of our computer vision. When all of this is done we will be able to reduce set up times drastically. Setting up these machines has always been the biggest headache, and we think we have the solution for it.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 07:14:34 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 30, 2015, 05:57:12 pm"Huston we have a problem"Your machine is still under heavy development and it was not in production use even few months a few hours a day, 7 days a week, etc, so your customer will pay for... tests which they will make themselfIt is acceptable in DIY homemade thing for own use since it costs a few times less money, but you want deliver "soon" (next year maybe?) something which will fail so many times, that it is a risk to assembly reliable many boards.BTW: Which is acceptable mismatch error rates in such machines in production? How much percentage of PnP parts can be thrown to the bin- 1% or more?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 07:16:52 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 30, 2015, 05:57:12 pmAre you saying youdidn'trealise these were essential requirements from the start ..?

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 07:33:41 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on September 30, 2015, 07:14:34 pmCan you tell me what will "fail so many times"?The idea is to prove to the customer we can do the job they need to do. They say we need it to do this, and we prove we can do what is needed. They do not pay for this.We have been using the machine to build our boards for only 1 month, correct, but I'm not sure why this matters. We are at a point where the product is marketable. We are marketable because we have features that others currently do not, in our price range, but also because we can place accurately as seen from our videos. Also, we have many error checks to make sure boards get put together reliably.We are making deliveries this December of this year.A good project is always under heavy development. A project that you care about should never be complete, but should always evolve otherwise someone else will pass you up.Not sure where you come up with your facts, but I can assure you not many have been correct so far.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 07:38:56 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 30, 2015, 07:16:52 pmNo, I am not saying that.I'm saying we currently need the vibrafeed, and it's our next step. I don't know of any machines in our range that have modular feeders let alone vibrafeed so, I believe we are in a good position with our advancements. Also, doing double sided boards isn't hard just part of the list of requirements the customer had.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 09:43:37 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 30, 2015, 07:33:41 pmIt matters because people spending on a P&P, even a cheap-ish one, want to know that it will be reliable over time.A bad pick/place has the ability to waste a lot of time and money - buying from an unknown manufacturer, a machine that has only had a few months' run-time is a big risk.How many thousand hours' run-time will you have by the time you start shipping?How many thousand reels have you run through your feeders so far to test long-term wear?

author: MattFL
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 09:52:53 pm
content: Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on September 30, 2015, 07:38:56 pmI'm jumping around here so my apologies if I missed something significant; but from my seat, I don't think vibra feed or double sided capabilities are "requirements" for a low end P&P machine. We've got one we use for prototyping and small production runs, it only works with single sided boards and does not have vibra feed, but it gets the job done for us. Of course the PCB's are all our own so we can design as required for our P&P machine, if you're trying to populate other peoples PCB's then that's a whole other issue. For IC's that don't come in a reel, we get them in trays. If they're in tubes then we manually transfer them to trays(not ideal, but we're only doing small runs). The trays sit next to our PCB's on the P&P machine, and it picks them from the trays. For prototyping and small runs of our own PCB's this is fine.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 10:03:47 pm
content: Quote from: MattFL on September 30, 2015, 09:52:53 pmEven a cheap P&P is a significant investment, and it's already trying to hit a very small market segment (which is probably why nobody has yet done a decent job of it) so if it has unnecessary limitations, ones that aren't difficult to avoid, it can only reduce the potential market further.Designing a P&P with a board support system that can't do double-sided would be crazy.Chips, especially at the lower volumes a low-end machine is aimed at commonly come in tubes, so not supporting these is a significant limitation.

author: MattFL
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 10:47:10 pm
content: Ok I was having a brain fart. I didn't even realize there was a p+p that wouldn't let you manually flip the board over. I was thinking you meant some sort of automatic solution. Time to catch up on sleep over here.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2015, 03:10:46 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 30, 2015, 09:43:37 pm+1 On that.I have a small biz that fairly recently transitioned into electronics. I looked at any/all options for P&P to do prototypes and small runs. The entry level machines scared me away because I was not confident in them. I ended up spending only slightly more than what this machine costs plus some elbow grease and I now have a proven commercial machine that is reliable and fast (enough). Reliability was probably my number one requirement in the end. I could not risk missing a delivery because the P&P machine took a dump.Just a perspective from someone that is probably your target audience.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2015, 09:04:49 am
content: I talked to a pro fab here in town and they spent easily big amounts on their machines just that if they run into problems, within 8 hours there is a technician resolving the issue.That is what they pay for, to keep downtime to a minimum. They have some machines even redundant so they can switch if one fails. If the machine runs out of service (no longer maintainable) they write them off and replace them.But that is not the market for this machine now is it?So any business buying such a machine esp in a different country must realize:- they have to maintain the machine themselves because there is not service organisation nearby- that it can be down for at least 48 hours which it will take to ship the replacement parts by courier and repair and test.If they can not afford that then they should buy redundant machines or search elsewhere.Just my two cents.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2015, 02:02:24 pm
content: I agree, we aren't Manncorp or Samsung.Our machine was made because we needed it to build the boards we sell on our website, because we have too many to place by hand, and not enough to ship out to China. We are actually the first customer of our machine, the whole purpose of this project was to have a pnp for ourselves.Also, when we build something we don't build it with limitations. First we get it to work, then we improve on that. We didn't just say, "We aren't going to support that feature." It's just the next feature in line to add.The machines aren't out in the wild yet, so we are trying to gather valuable feedback to make the machines as good as possible before they ship out. We have had some luck here with feedback, and for that we are very thankful.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2015, 04:00:36 pm
content: I am not at all trying to be discouraging and I think I understand what you are doing. All I am trying to do is provide the perspective that many/most will have when looking for a P&P machine. It means that they are in a business, not a hobby anymore. Downtime can easily exceed the cost of a few machines. I had looked at the TM240 and thought to myself, how bad could it be? It's about $6k I think.The scenario that scared me was this.....Customer: "We would like to order 25 of your awesome product, but we need it next week. Can you do it?"Me: "Great, of course we can. I just got a new automatic PCB assembly machine."I buy all the parts and prep all the mechanics. Customer is now counting on a delivery and has stopped looking for any other alternatives. P&P gets crazy and I spend a number of hours troubleshooting. I discover that it is crazy because something is broken. To set up and hand place the PCB's will add a week to the delivery but the customers job will suffer greatly. They cancel the order that is worth 2x the cost of the TM240 and tell everyone in the industry that I am an idiot.Its only a made up scenario, but not unrealistic. Your customers will have something similar in the back of their minds when they are looking for a P&P. There are various degrees of that. Even if it is just for prototypes, the schedule will be based on the machine working and when it does not, it can take a lot of time to either hand place or outsource. This is especially true if you are not setup for it.Just think about how you may handle that line of questions when it comes up - could make a huge difference in how many you sell. The LitePlacer one is in reach of the hobbyist, who have time to tinker and fiddle with it. At $6k, your machine is beyond a hobby but very inexpensive compared to commercial P&P machines.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2015, 04:57:47 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on October 01, 2015, 04:00:36 pmThink of hard disks: The 'I' in RAID stands for 'inexpensive'. People figured out that reliability comes from redundancy, not from buying very expensive disks.Any machine can have problems. It's safer to buy three cheap P&P machines and have one standing idle for emergencies than to buy one expensive machine that the whole company depends on.Smaller machines can also be a good way to scale your production capacity as demand grows - you can still handle small jobs while the big jobs are running in the background.Quote from: rx8pilot on October 01, 2015, 04:00:36 pmYou're not an idiot for using a TM240, you're an idiot for not having a backup plan when one fails.Quote from: rx8pilot on October 01, 2015, 04:00:36 pmThe price doesn't really matter if it earns money.The question is whether it does what you need - is it accurate enough, does it have enough feeds, etc.?

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2015, 05:02:10 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on October 01, 2015, 04:00:36 pmWe are in a similar boat business wise. We do prototyping and have a few specific boards that have been quite successful. A lot of these questions we ask ourselves already, as we are in the position of needing the machine to operate, and it's our neck on the line. We fully understand that position of thinking.We also looked at the TM220 and 240, but when we were watching Ian's (dangerous prototypes) video review of the product, we knew it wasn't right for us. We looked at other small footprint machines such as the Manncorp FVX, and it was just way our of our price range. We decided we'd build one.On the point of the machine breaking. I'm not sure what you mean by breaking, but that can happen to any machine unfortunately.One of the interested parties I've been talking to uses an archaic Manncorp machine that runs on old DOS. He said the longest he can get away from baby sitting it is 80 seconds, and that's when he takes his bathroom break! This is his man reason for wanting multiple of our units for back ups.

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2015, 05:05:16 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 01, 2015, 04:57:47 pmThis is our main goal. To find what people like rx8pilot (our target audience) need in a machine. Not to single you out rx8pilotbut when looking at the machine what do you need that isn't currently there.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2015, 05:56:47 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 01, 2015, 04:57:47 pmThe problem in my particular case is that the backup plans almost always take too long. This is why I got a machine in house. The parts are generally built on demand and the schedules are tight and cannot be negotiated since they are tied to other immovable schedules up the food chain. The problem is a whole gaggle of smaller problems that do not have a concrete answer.On something like a TM240, it can throw down 0805's super fast but will fail on the .4mm parts, the 56mm tape parts, heavy inductors, etc. To me, it could only be good for simple stuff even if the reliability was great.The selling point on my Quad was that it is a long proven design that can run 24hrs a day if needed. In my case, probably never but it says a lot for the reliability. Any part can be fed by any method and there are a lot of them. Tapes, strips, trays, etc. I can have about 120 different parts setup at a time which means that I can do all my boards including a couple of prototypes without any changes to the machine setup.All parts are no more than a day away, although they are not cheap. There are lots of nozzle choices.Quote from: ProtoVoltaics on October 01, 2015, 05:05:16 pmTo be honest, I have been speaking in concepts only because just got my old Quad up and running. At the moment, not in the market unless the Quad explodes. If I was looking, I would hope for.....>1000cphwalk-away reliability.4mm pitch (all day long)0201reasonably easy setup changes - adding parts, trays, etc.finely adjustable Z - which has been very important in my application with tall caps, inductors next to 0402'sglobal and local fiducial supportability to take panels and odd shape routed PCB'sEase of use appropriate for a modestly skilled employee to setup and operate. (needing a super-star engineer to operate/monitor is no good)While I understand it is low-cost, I have learned over the years that the acquisition cost is many times the smallest number in the total cost equation. All of my business endeavors have been equipment intensive and in the 7 figure cost range. In all the cases, labor needed to keep them busy over the useful life was much more that the purchase price. Now I look very closely at what it will cost to operate in both direct and indirect costs. The Quad is easy enough and reliable enough that I do not have a dedicate person, and probably wont for a while. It is too easy (although it was a major pain to get it going).

author: ProtoVoltaics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2015, 06:45:58 pm
content: I know you just got a machine not trying to push a sale just looking for the feedback.Much appreciated!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2015, 06:49:06 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on October 01, 2015, 05:56:47 pmThose are good reasons for not buying one. Not because itmightbe unreliable.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2015, 07:21:49 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on October 01, 2015, 04:00:36 pmIf you are in the JIT logistics game there is a lot that can go wrong.You at least should have your parts and pcbs already in stock or have guarantees from third party supplier.If you have demanding customers that need delivery guarantees in that short amount of time you almost can not do business without having the fully assembled product ready to ship in stock. Too many variables too mess it up and that costs a lot of goodwill, eg ruins your name. Just my two cents.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2015, 07:59:25 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on October 02, 2015, 07:21:49 amTell me about it! In reality, the problem is that my small biz is just getting over the hump of being able to produce the product faster than the build up in demand. Early in the process, there were a ton of revisions, tweaks, software, etc. All that in addition to figuring out a shipping system, storage, website, all the back office junk.The problem is not really the customers, but more on my end trying to work out the production chain. My product has a little over 400 parts and I do all of it soup to nuts. Design, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, software, PCB assy, 5 axis CNC machining, inventory and purchasing, website. I am slowly automating everything starting with the P&P, then all the production test and measurement with LabView. Ordering and shipping is being automated too. Trying to see how far I can get on my own focusing on automation. Starting to outsource the CNC parts now that the design is stable and documented. When the design is fluid, it is impossible to outsource. Machining the parts myself is a huge help to optimize the designs for manufacturing without compromising the function. Since I do all the mechanics, the 7 PCB's fit in like a well considered puzzle because they were designed with the mechanics.It may be more clear why I am sensitive about reliability with my equipment. If the P&P stops working - it falls on me to hand place PCB's until it gets fixed which is also done by me as well. I hand placed many 10's of thousands of parts to save enough money to get all this going so at least I am very accomplished at hand building PCB's with lots of fine pitch parts on double sided PCB's.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2015, 09:23:01 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on October 02, 2015, 07:21:49 am..And once you are in a situation where PCBs are in stock, it will often be more cost-effective to subcontract the assemby, and probably also the part sourcing.This is why the market for a small pick/place is limited - it sits in a small niche between hand assembly and subcontract.