Choosing the right PCB software - Problems with Eagle - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: skymoco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 02:41:31 pm
content: I feel like this is one of those lifetime decisions, what PCB CAD software to invest my time learning. I started out with Eagle and am fairly frustrated.I picked a pretty simple timer circuit using a 74LS14. The GND and VCC pins didn't show up until I "invoked" them and now they are there but don't show up on the board. Am I really doing stuff wrong? Attached is my eagle file.Is this just typical learning curve stuff or should I be looking at other packages? My end goal is to prototype pretty simple circuits and have a PCB's made. Mostly arduinio based, but other programmable chips as well.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 02:49:44 pm
content: They're on the board, pin 7 and pin 14. You don't have anything connected to pin 14 on the board because you just have VCC in the schematic. Try putting a header or jack in the schematic hooked to GND and VCC and you'll see what I mean.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 02:52:29 pm
content: Once you try DipTrace, you'll never go back to Eagle.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 02:55:24 pm
content: I tried Diptrace and hated it. No native linux support, just wine.

author: rfbroadband
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 03:00:17 pm
content: Quote from: skymoco on May 08, 2014, 02:41:31 pmyou are still on a leaning curve...design a few PCBs with Eagle, get to the point where you face real limitations of the tools and then you can decide whether you should upgrade to a higher end tool. Just be aware that one can easily send a few thousand dollars on these tools and therefore most hobbyist's figure out a way to live with the limitations of a cost efficient PCB tool.

author: Legion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 03:11:27 pm
content: I'm in the same situation, trying to find the right CAD software. While Eagle is really popular, it's not the most intuitive software. I only lasted for 10 minutes before I started looking for something better. As some of the other posters have mentioned you might want to try DipTrace. I found it much easier to use. I started using Altium about a week ago and so far I like it the best. I'll need some more time with it to be sure.What I find useful is to try a tutorial that takes you through a complete workflow. This way you get an overview of the application and see if you like the UI / usage model. It's better to spend some extra time evaluating programs now than to get heavily invested in a particular platform and have to restart.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 03:25:47 pm
content: Isn't Altium over $7000? Diptrace Starter is $75. So far, that's been enough for everything I've had to do for my business. That's for 300 pins and 2 signal layers. Even the full version is well under $1000, but the "Standard" version is 1000 pins and 4 layers at $345, and that should cover most anything a hobbyist will do.I really do wonder why Eagle is so popular. The interface is really pretty lousy...very clunky. One thing about DipTrace, though, is I generally don't like their included components. I have my own library that I've built with all of my own components. As I need something, I simply build it in their component/pattern editor. It's so easy to do it that it's really just a minor distraction. I build 3 or 4 components yesterday alone, on the fly....a few connectors and a 3PDT switch. Often times I just save their included component to my library (just right click on the component and choose save to library), and then I modify it to fix it. This is usually just a matter of fixing the pad/hole sizes, and you only have to fix one because it will propagate it to all the pads in the part unless you tell it not to. Very simple. To build from scratch, there are enough standard pin layouts that it's usually just a matter of specifying the pin spacing and the number of pins. Then draw a rectangle around it the size of the component, and done. I can usually make a new component from scratch in about 5 minutes, believe it or not.Manual PCB routing is far and away better in DipTrace (and who uses the autorouter anyway?). Editing traces in DipTrace is trivial. In Eagle, you may as well just delete the trace and start over.

author: gbyleveldt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 03:44:08 pm
content: I've been using Eagle for 8 years and now moving (slowly) over to Diptrace. I think that qualifies me to make comments on how lousy Eagle is.

author: skymoco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 04:04:27 pm
content: Quote from: liquibyte on May 08, 2014, 02:49:44 pmAh, that worked and makes sense. I think I am getting the hang of it, slowly. I want to cheat and just ask how to make a this a single sided board that I can cut out with my CNC mill. This is certainly one helpful board fits well with Dave's outgoing style but I don't want to take too much advantage of it.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 04:40:45 pm
content: Edit: Was playing a bit. How's this?

author: skymoco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 05:30:58 pm
content: That's pretty good. I did the similar but also added GND and output.How did you get the jpeg? Is this just a screen print or is there something I don't know about?

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 05:43:32 pm
content: Quote from: skymoco on May 08, 2014, 05:30:58 pmFile > Export > ImageSchematic will also do this. It defaults to 150 dpi, I chose 600 dpi for this image. People like to bitch about Eagle and claim that other products are better but once you figure out how to use it, it's fairly easy if non-intuitive. The only issue I really have is the library management, it's a pain in the ass.

author: skymoco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 05:59:59 pm
content: Yea, seems like a lot of things. If you use them long enough you figure out the quirks.I seem to do a lot of deleting connecting and reconnecting components. It would be cool if Eagle somehow told you that it's making a connection. This is one of those things I bet will get more intuitive over time.The libraries drive me crazy as well. But, then there are a lot of third party libraries out there so that's a good thing.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 06:17:10 pm
content: Quote from: skymoco on May 08, 2014, 05:59:59 pmJust make sure to check the footprints against the actual part datasheet. I recently ran into a problem where the collector and emitter were reversed in a footprint from the actual part. Also, the terminal block in the board I did had pin holes that were far too large for the pins and keeping it aligned while soldering was a pain. I learned the hard way to always check and measure first.

author: skymoco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 06:28:01 pm
content: I have another general question about best practice board design in general. I have a number of pins all tied to ground and when I use the autorouter it runs them from one to the other. Isn't it better to have a ground bus and have everything tied in at one point?Is that what the "Bus" line is for?

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 06:51:45 pm
content: Just use the name tool on the net from the schematic side. In other words, right click each net line that's tied to ground in the schematic and click name and put GND in the box. This is how people do schematics with multiple sheets.

author: skymoco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 08:36:05 pm
content: Getting closer, but I found another learning opportunity. I choose a 4 pin header and left pin #4 unconnected. The board has pin 4 connected to ground and a odd trace coming from R2. Neither of which I can seem to get rid of.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 09:21:54 pm
content: Right click the odd trace in the board view and select Ripup. That will get rid of that. Not sure why you have pin 4 connected on the board when it's not connected in the schematic. If you haven't solved that, can you attach it?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 09:30:22 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on May 08, 2014, 02:52:29 pmYou say that, and I came running back.

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 09:51:03 pm
content: Once you learn KiCAD in its entirety you'll never go back (to Eagle).

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 09:53:36 pm
content: Quote from: scientist on May 08, 2014, 09:51:03 pmIf you can even get it to work without crashing.

author: skymoco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 10:23:51 pm
content: Quote from: liquibyte on May 08, 2014, 09:21:54 pmRipUP fixed it.I think I had better watch the rest of the tutorials before I post any more questions. Unless you want to quickly tell me how to make a one sided board....

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 10:31:25 pm
content: Any red trace is top layer. You can right click on a trace and choose the layer in the dialog box. You'll have to do this for each section, bend to bend. If you're autorouting, you can set Top to N/A and bottom to * and it will only route on the bottom. A good trick for autorouting is to leave the default board dimension alone and put all of the components in the center and let the traces have more room around the outside. This is especially useful if you're trying to autoroute a single layer board.

author: Hideki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 10:54:14 pm
content: A better trick for autorouting is not to use autorouting. Even more so if you're a beginner.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 11:00:54 pm
content: Quote from: Hideki on May 08, 2014, 10:54:14 pmBut if he doesn't learn its limitations, he won't learn why not to use it. I started out with the autorouter and ended up learning that it's almost always better to manually route traces.

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 11:54:01 pm
content: Or do what China and all the other iffy places do, and use a hooky version of Protel 99?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 04:07:20 am
content: Quote from: Zad on May 08, 2014, 11:54:01 pmI doubt it. Probably pirated copies of a more recent version. If you don't care about copyright and the law software becomes cheap.

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 08:39:58 pm
content: Quote from: liquibyte on May 08, 2014, 09:53:36 pmKiCAD has never crashed on me.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 08:48:25 pm
content: Crashes on me whenever I click the buttons for eeschema, cvpcp or pcbnew. Every time.

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 08:50:12 pm
content: I'm using the November 2013 win7 version, so I can't speak about the Linux one.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 09:08:50 pm
content: Here's the rub. The old version from back then works for me too. However, it does not have the new features so the only way to have a somewhat useful program is to run the bzr version which does crap like this because the code base is spaghetti made by meatballs.

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 11:28:55 pm
content: What new features, specifically? It does what I need for now, so I haven't updated it.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 02:45:28 am
content: Quote from: liquibyte on May 08, 2014, 02:55:24 pmWahhhhhhhhh.... Cheese for your whine, sir? We have a splendid selection here at EEVblog forums.EE work is, as an industry, done in Windows. It is not going to change because it of comments like yours. It's not going to change in any foreseeable timeframe. Kicad is an exception, and until Kicad is adopted widely in industry it will always be an exception; never the rule.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 02:51:02 am
content: Quote from: scientist on May 09, 2014, 08:39:58 pmYou are either exaggerating or your computer is under the influence of magic.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 03:47:13 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on May 11, 2014, 02:45:28 amTell that to the scientists and engineers at CERN. Apparently they've adopted kicad as their software of choice. Asshat.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 04:15:26 am
content: Good for them. Its hardly an entire industry, is it? Pure research has gotten lesser and lesser funding from the government, so maybe it is a necessity. I don't know. A single example is not indicative of anything, so assemble more examples, or it's just opinion masquerading as fact.I do know that I am FUCKING sick of Linux freetards completely dismissing Windows-only solutions as useless out of hand. Dismissing things out of hand is a pinnacle of ignorance, yet it is rarely heard without arrogance and extreme conviction.I used to be a freetard, too. I was for over a decade. I ran Linux everywhere the whole time, multiple desktops, lots of servers, etc. I don't know what the trigger was, but at some point it was just too much maintaining all that crap. I realized that I wasn't getting anything done, that all my short term goals dealt with keeping the infrastructure up and running, mostly the desktops, and every time a new kernel security bug was fixed it was up to a four-day ordeal to patch everything up. I spent all my time tinkering with the OS itself, instead of using the OS as a tool platform which could actually be used to perform work.Switching to Windows was the single best technical decision I've made in my personal life, and I get so much more done, now. I don't have to worry about the OS, I don't fight it, and the sound ALWAYS works on all my machines.So, maybe I'm an asshat. I would say the same thing to myself that I just said to you, because I used to think the same way. Reality is different.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 09:29:38 am
content: Amen.

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 06:46:31 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on May 11, 2014, 02:51:02 amKiCAD users do tend to be wizards

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 10:33:06 pm
content: Quote from: liquibyte on May 08, 2014, 02:55:24 pmDiptrace works flawlessly on linux in wine, well very nearly - in the pattern/component editors if you move the funny not-quite-a-window with the pattern info, it doesn't redraw that area, just collapse and expand it to force, or don't move it.And occasionally if I minimize a window my window manger loses track of it, moving it to another desktop (not screen, desktop) with right click on the task icon solves that.Those are the only things I can think of that are problems under wine, the barely even rate as an irritation.I would use kiCad or gEDA, but they both suck in terms of interface.

author: mathsquid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 01:30:15 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on May 11, 2014, 04:15:26 amNot it isn't. The electronics industry might run on windows, but I'm just a hobbyist. Getting another computer or dual-booting or whatever isn't worth the trouble to me. So if something is windows-only, I don't even consider it.If I were doing this professionally (or if I were doing more complicated hobby projects), I'd have a different set of priorities with respect to my tools; for now, dismissing things that require windows makes sense.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 02:55:35 am
content: Quote from: mathsquid on May 12, 2014, 01:30:15 amI guess that's a good approach if you don't want choicesYou can pick a refurbished system with the OS for around $100 put a kvm, get more choices!Or you can always hateEdit, for the record, electronics cad system were historically on expensive unix workstations costing tens of thousands, plus tens of thousands for the software as well. We are spoiled!

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 04:17:45 am
content: Please, let's not let this devolve into a pointless exercise in name-calling. The obvious winner of this argument is KiCAD, BTW.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 04:46:30 am
content: Quote from: scientist on May 12, 2014, 04:17:45 amYup, I wonder if anyone here has donated:http://cernandsociety.web.cern.ch/technology/kicad-developmentCern's efforts don't seem to be moving fast.http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cern-kicad/wikiBTW I would love to see where it says that CERN scientists adopted Kicad, so far they have one student developing the whole thinghttp://www.ohwr.org/projects/cern-kicad/wiki/FaqNo progress since September last year and little progress while they were doing the effort.Am I missing something, or is that effort pretty much dead from inception?Edit: wait, they do have 3 managers for the project, poor student!

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 05:30:11 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on May 12, 2014, 04:46:30 amThanks for the useful post! Very informative, intellectually stimulating, and helpful for the discussion. I hope to hear more of your bitchy complaints about a free tool in the future!

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 05:52:24 am
content: I guess next time I'll keep the facts out and let everyone assume that CERN actually uses the stuffI actually tried kicad and geda. kicad's naming convention is confusing to say the least.geda has a better chance to become something of use, but needs more developers to help, so does kicad, so please donate to both!50 euros for an hour of development sounds pretty fair to meEdit: an hour of "expert" development by an "expert" student. Had to be said!Edit: and awesome job at name calling

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 06:00:30 am
content: Donating won't do anything except inflate your ego. What's your goal?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 06:06:37 am
content: Quote from: scientist on May 12, 2014, 06:00:30 amMy goal would be for more developers to contribute instead of complaining about commercial software. It's open source so if you like it and/or use it, then contribute by coding or by donating.I'm using commercial free tools (restricted yes, but very capable). I have no problem running Ubuntu and Windows. Not sure why people are so against Windows only tools.If it's because evil M$ will make money out of you, you can get a refurbished Windows 7 Professional system for a mere $160 that will run eagle just fine, wih 2GB of memory and 180GB drive, sure just a core 2 duo but more than plenty.What I don't get is why people shut options off because they are Windows only, seems like self limiting.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 06:38:28 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on May 12, 2014, 06:06:37 amHaving to switch monitors every time you want to work on a PCB... or use a crappy little cheap monitor. Where does this computer sit? My router has run out of ethernet ports! One more computer to keep up to date. I might just make a little change to the PCB... eugh, I have to wait 2 minutes for the computer to turn on? Screw that!Also, there's just the simple principle of it.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 06:49:24 am
content: Quote from: rs20 on May 12, 2014, 06:38:28 amKVM, use one of the systems as a gateway to your other PC or get a switch.Quote from: rs20 on May 12, 2014, 06:38:28 amThat I can't help you with.I wished I could buy test equipment for just parts, labor and distribution. Screw paying for IP and development, that should be freeI also wished I could work for free as in not being paid for my work. But people that complain is because they don't want to spend their "hard earned money" because of course other people's work is not hard at allFurthermore,There is also a wrong perception about Open Source (software or hardware) being free, as in beer.The "Free" of Open Source (software and hardware) is about Freedom of the code/design, and freedom is everything but cheap!It's free, as in set free, not as in free loader.As an analogy, NPR is free radio supported by listeners, so if you listen you should contribute, otherwise let other people contribute for you (free-loader)Edit: Just to say that I know that your comment was a tongue in cheek comment as in sarcastic, but I had to let some more things out

author: mathsquid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 01:24:17 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on May 12, 2014, 02:55:35 amUsing a KVM assumes that I already have a keyboard and monitor set up somewhere. I do everything at home on a laptop because it's easy and convenient. Setting up a desktop or getting a cheap used laptop isn't something I want to do. As I said before it's not worth the trouble.And hate? None of this is about hate. It's about making choices that involve my time, space, money, and enjoyment. To me it's not worth adding another computer. Sure there are some programs I can't run, but that's a trade-off I'm willing to make.

author: danb35
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 03:37:26 pm
content: "The fact that $SOFTWARE_PACKAGE doesn't run natively on $MY_OS makes it less useful to me."is not the same thing as"$SOFTWARE_PACKAGE sucks because it doesn't run natively on $MY_OS."mathsquid's comment wrt Diptrace was in the form of the first statement, but some have responded as though it were in the form of the second. A bit more care in reading would have saved everybody on this thread quite a bit of time.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 04:54:19 pm
content: Quote from: danb35 on May 13, 2014, 03:37:26 pmThe biased and arrogant are incapable of parsing such statements correctly, I'm afraid.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 05:36:48 pm
content: Virtual machines are pretty great, and require no extra hardware, and only free software to run. Give VirtualBox a try.If you don't have enough spare RAM or disk or whatever to run a WinXP machine and [insert software] then you probably need new hardware anyway.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 08:34:55 pm
content: You can install and run Windows 7 for free. You'll have to reinstall (or maybe restore) every 4 months, but that's no big deal (and there's probably ways around that). If you have a lot of software that has to be "installed", then maybe it won't work for you, but most software can run without actually installing it, just put it on a separate drive and run it from a shortcut or just look for "portable" versions.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 03:15:23 pm
content: I don't worry about nonsense like the OS. If it's a package I want, and it's only available on Mac, I buy a Mac. If I want it, and it's only on a PC, I get a PC. Some of us have actual real work to get done, and maybe even a lot of hobbyists aren't into screwing around because of some dumb, philosophical objection to the OS. I bought my first PC in 5 years because I needed it to run my CAD program. Big deal. Cost isn't even an issue anymore. I can get a refurbished, 3 year old computer for $150, a used flat panel for $15, and keyboard/mice for practically nothing. The computer running the host software for my CNC machine cost me less than $200 with a Windows license. My little Linux box acting as a Terabyte backup RAID cost about $100, not including the disks. Even my 3D CAD system cost me well under $1000, that was new, and that has a workstation class video card in it.So whatever. I think most of us have better things to do.

author: LukeW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 03:51:01 pm
content: For all the people out there who make "Eagle sucks, it's so shit", or "KiCAD sucks, hard to use" posts, these sorts of statements are completely meaningless unless you have experience doing schematic capture and PCB layout using multiple different software packages, and you're actually making meaningful comparisons between different alternatives that you've got experience with.If you're just starting out doing this without any experience with other software that archives the same result, it's silly to cry and protest that software X is so shit and hard to use.If you're just starting out with EDA/CAD/CAM software and any schematic capture and board layout on a PC then obviously it will be a bit tricky to get started out, lots of learning curve - and this is completely independent of what software you use. There's a learning curve for a beginner with KiCAD, or for Altium, or Diptrace, or Eagle, or whatever. All software of this type intrinsically has a fairly complex interface and lots of things to control.Also, learning things like the fact that autorouting sucks, or how to make a good layout, how to draw a neat schematic, how to design a PCB for manufacturability - these are just general things to learn, they are completely independent of what software you choose.And the actual user experience of using the software to draw a schematic or PCB layout is not the be all and end all factor - there are other factors too. Such as cost, ease of installation, commercial support from the developer (versus "support" from some "don't use Linux? Then get lost YOU'LL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM" bearded 30 year old in Mum's basement), ease of installation and use on the operating system that you choose to use are also factors you might consider, and these may involve a trade off with some software usability. Prior time invested in a particular software package is also a factor. If you already know Altium well, but you decide that KiCAD is cheaper so you get KiCAD but then you need to spend a month of your professional time learning KiCAD to the same level that you already know Altium instead of actually just using Altium to do the job and get paid, then it might be economically more attractive to just go and pay for your $8000 license.

author: LukeW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 03:53:23 pm
content: Quote from: liquibyte on May 11, 2014, 03:47:13 amCitation needed.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 03:56:19 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on May 14, 2014, 03:15:23 pmPerfectly said. This is my point, precisely. If you're doing work, the OS should not matter. It is the work that matters, and you obtain the tools required to achieve the goal of completing the work. Religiousness and zealotry have no place in the decision.

author: M0BSW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 04:03:20 pm
content: I've just started trying to use software like this ,I don't know which is or is not the best, I'm using diptrace, not sure how this stacks up , but slowly I'm kind of getting used to it, I know without doubt I'm not the right person to offer any advice on Software, for me diptrace seems to work.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 04:14:53 pm
content: Quote from: M0BSW on May 14, 2014, 04:03:20 pmDiptrace is absurdly inexpensive and easy to use. Their component libraries aren't very good, but their Component and Pattern editor are SOOO good that I just don't care. I just make all of my own components that I use. I made one yesterday....a SPST, ON-Off-ON switch. From start to finish, including layout of the mounting holes for the snap-in bracket, I don't think I spent more than 5 minutes on it.It's not Altium, but it's not $7500 either. For smaller projects, it's very hard to beat, IMHO. I probably wouldn't use it to lay out a motherboard, or some sort of high speed or controlled impedance application. It's really good for basic digital and analog electronics.I wish SPICE programs would copy their schematic capture interface.