EV lithium-ion battery & fires - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EnergyBulb
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 12:55:55 pm
content: With more crashes featuring all-electric vehicles hitting the news (for example, the recent tragedy in Venice with multiple casualties), what is the most reasonable approach to such discussions? I am all for the massive spread of EV technology but these things are a bit alarming, and I guess at this stage it's still early to make any lasting conclusions. Still, the issue is out there, and definitely worth discussing. What are y'all's thoughts about it?

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 02:38:51 pm
content: My thoughts are that I would not have a Lithium battery powered vehicle parked in a garage or anywhere near my house and I will not have an large Lithium battery powered item such as an E-bike in my house or anywhere near anything flammable. I'm alsonevergoing to spend ~$60,000 for a vehicle that has a chance that it's going to spontaneously combust.Just yesterday the news showed video camera footage of a Lithium battery in an E-bike exploding,exploding, not burning, inside of a hospital somewhere.About a week ago, the local TV evening news showed video footage from a home security camera that showed an I-phone exploding in a large ball of fire inside of someone's kitchen. The home owner was very lucky in that there was nothing nearby that was flammable or they probably would have lost their house!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 03:52:01 pm
content: you seem to be talking about non EV fires. A recent ebike battery fire drew lots of questions in the UK - for 5 minutes - then we all went back to buying dodgy shit from china like the ebikes themselves and chargers that may or may not be compatible before you worry about the charger being properly designed. The problem is not the technology but bad implementations that are not being checked over. With the way commerce works these days and cut backs trading authorities have no chance of stopping these.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 04:34:44 pm
content: LiFePO4S seems the safer bet, and I believe Tesla are already moving in that direction. Now, if only they could solve the problems of terrible build quality, fraudulent claims of having FSD, con artist majority shareholder, real car makers shaping up to eat their breakfast lunch and dinner, and impending lawsuits over death and serious injuries, they'd be golden...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 04:42:40 pm
content: Yes one of my colleagues has a lifepo Tesla.So what is your problem with Tesla? I mean it sounds like they are doing their namesake proud:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6331JXvOUGY&ab_channel=KathyLovesPhysics%26History

author: woofy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 04:45:13 pm
content: The trouble with stuff like this is that it is hard to find facts in all the noise. There's just way too much hard line opinion out there on both sides.This studyhttps://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/would suggest ICE cars are 60 times more likely to catch fire than EV's, with hybrids even worse.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 04:57:11 pm
content: the problem is that with a 5 second attention span no one will ever walk away with the facts no matter how hard you try to tell them. And bashing EV's is so fashionable and easy for people who are already starting out with a third hand story and are bent on trashing EV's anyway while having little technical understanding.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 05:11:11 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 06, 2023, 04:57:11 pmHey some of us with technical understanding are bashing them and rightfully so.Anyway some reality...We aren't allowed to park any EV, e-bike or e-scooter in our underground car park or bring any e-scooter or e-bike inside the property at all as of December last year. Why? Because the insurers don't think that it would be possible to put out an EV fire before permanent structural damage is done. This is a circa 2010 top of the line property with state of the art fire control and smoke exhaust systems that is designed as a "stay put" building where there is a 3 hour burn time for an individual apartment.What the insurer says goes because the inclusive premium was the entire cost to replace one block and house everyone in it for 3 years.Edit: a positive is that our local vocal Tesla owner got a space outside under a tree and his car is permanently covered in parrot shit.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 05:21:31 pm
content: An ICE car might be more likely to catch fire, but it's also alotsimpler and easier to put out.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 05:27:06 pm
content: Yep

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 05:29:08 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 06, 2023, 04:42:40 pmIf by that you mean making outrageously dishonest claims while milking their benefactor(s) for every penny to fund a lavish lifestyle, while failing to deliver a result, deadline after deadline, then yes, I guess theyareliving up to their namesake.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 05:43:06 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 06, 2023, 05:11:11 pmParrot shit? Where are you? AFIK there are no free roaming parrots in England.I fully agree with you about the batteries. It's easy for the nay sayers to claim that all Lithium batteries problems are due to poor chargers and negligent owners but the several fires in Lithium battery storage units built, owned and maintained some of the major AC power companies easily disprove that it's an owner issue.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/another-tesla-big-battery-on-fire/msg5080894/#msg5080894in case anyone missed the latest one.There have already been several house fires in the US due to owners parked their EVs and E-bikes in their garages and/or inside of their houses and apartments and charging them with the factory supplied chargers and fully in compliance with the factory instructions, but they burst into flames. I am not willing to take that risk, despite assurances from somebody on the other side of the world that I never meet.San Fransisco just passed (or it's close to being passed) a city wide bill to outlaw keeping E-bikes inside of any occupied structure for the same reason. Some apartment complexes in Orlando have also banned it.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 05:52:01 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on October 06, 2023, 05:43:06 pmI live in SW London..I get these guys tapping on my window in the morning..."Get out of bed you fat bastard"By the afternoon they start their judging posture..."shouldn't you be working instead of slacking on forums mate?"And down the local park they get even more exotic!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 07:40:31 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on October 06, 2023, 05:43:06 pmOK, hang on, can we stop lumping EV cars and ebikes/scooters togethers. Cars are designed by companies that know they will have to answer for stuff and approved by regulators. escooters are largely illegal, I don't know about bike rules but, e-scooters are motorized, therefore not allowed on pavements and not on the road as they are not regulated vehicles, they are illegal unless used on private land, it this one get out clause that allows the import of any lousy unchecked garbage designed with no standards in mind.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 07:59:17 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 06, 2023, 07:40:31 pmMaybe in your part of the world however for a mod to make broad statements that are false worldwide is sad for someone in your position.Here escooters are big business, GPS and subscription managed and parked for public hire all over town.They give few problems as the companies behind them are well established multinationals.https://help.li.me/hc/en-nzhttps://electrek.co/2018/10/31/lime-electric-scooter-fire/

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 08:03:16 pm
content: There is no problem with EV batteries. Look elsewhere.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 07:59:34 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 06, 2023, 07:59:17 pmYou really hate me don't you, and that is the saddest, you can't attack the argument, you attack me. Here in the UK there is the odd experimental legal hire scheme, the scooters are made to standards and deemed road worthy. But for every 1 of those there are dozens of escooters being ridden illegally because they are being used as vehicles and the are not legally classed as vehicles, they are not approved for road use and the only thing legally allowed on the pavements is a pedestrian. These escooters are imported with no checks and are sold as "toys" you can with one what you like on private land, but if you are caught riding one on the street then it could be confiscated and destroyed. But of course we have week underfunded and undermanned authorities that cannot deal with such a deluge of something that on the face of it is harmless.At one of the repair cafe sessions that I volunteer at someone brought in a childs electric motor bike. OK, so not an escooter but basically the same class of toy, small ride on battery powered thing imported from china by a company that knows that if there were to be an issue the authorities would be too weak to do much. I mean the government pays a charity to take the calls to trading standards where unqualified and pittifully unknowing people take the calls and fob joe public off. It is actually only a business that has a hotline to trading standards.So what did I find wrong with this thing? The battery connector was actually an IEC connector just like the one used in computers. You see they wanted the battery to slide in and dock in the bike. To to this you need a panel mount plug, and a panel mount socket. So the people that designed the battery saw no problem in putting a socket on the battery that anyone could easily mistakingly connect a common mains lead to and plug 40V of lithium into 240VAC.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 08:09:51 am
content: https://www.funbikes.co.uk/p15636_yugen-rx11-72v-32ah-3200w-twin-motor-electric-scooterNotice how the tone slowly changes from this is the best shit and you should have one, to this is a toy but 18+, to actually it is often bought for kids aged 14+ to:Disclaimer: Unless otherwise specified, the products you are purchasing areillegal to ride in the UK and prohibited from roads, pavements and cycle lanes. It is the rider's responsibility, and the customer assumes all liability and risk associated with using these products to ensure laws are respected, and the correct safety equipment is used. The customer holds Fun:Bikes, its owners and employees free of liability or risk caused by the product's use. Age Suitability is to be used as a guide only, with responsibility for use solely at the discretion of the rider, parents or guardians. Fun:Bikes is unable to advise on the law. Please speak to your local authorities for more information.Even the legally hired escooters are basically always ridden on pavement illegally, they also get you put a drivers license in the app, but somehow kids are riding them and adults I see riding them should not have a license as they seem to think that although they are riding a vehicle for which they had to prove they have a license they behave like a pedestrian in the road.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 08:22:05 am
content: Explain why it is legal to ride a bicycle on roads but not a ebike or escooter.As usual the law is an ass.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 08:24:03 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 07, 2023, 08:22:05 amWell I don't have the expertise, I suggest you consult an expensive lawyer. But then you sort of answer you own question so I dunno, you seem to run on the same logic you think the law does.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 09:03:13 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 07, 2023, 08:22:05 amThe law is not an ass. It's clearly defined and people are just ignorant to it like Simon (which is fine - most of us are!) or unwilling to understand it. I'm a cyclist and have taken the time to actually read this.It is legal to ride an e-bike on the roads here as they are classified under pedal cycle legislation if under a certain power rating. The only design requirements are under the Pedal Cycles Construction and Use Regulations 1983, which pretty much says what a bike looks like and that you need functional brakes and that's it. It does not exclude any design criteria of a standard ebike but does by nature exclude e-scooters. On top of that you have The Highway Code which specifies what basic equipment the bicycle or e-bike should be equipped with (mostly lights, bell etc) and what regulations apply to cyclists when riding. Oh and despite common belief you can't actually ride either on the pavement here unless it's a cycle lane or "shared space" (fucking hate them and would rather ride in the fucking road - it's like riding through hoards of zombies)There is no legislation that forbidsprivately ownede-scooters explicitly but all the traffic and road regulations are exclusive by default with exceptions added so it is exclusionary on the basis there is no legislation that explicitly allows them. On top of that there are exceptions added for certain areas to allow trials to take place before legislation is passed on whether or not they are a safe and suitable form of transport (they aren't and the legislation will likely never go through).But really the outcome is a blind eye is turned until someone does something stupid because the fuzz have no time for dealing with the riders.The e-scooters are a wonderful invention though. I mean who could have come up with such a glorious device. They have tiny little wheels with absolutely no stepping power over any bumps or edges, they have a large stick pointing right at your vital organs, they go like the fucking clappers, the centre of gravity is up in the clouds somewhere and they have a built in incendiary weapon and they are all built by the lowest bidder! Think of it as a culling tool against the ned/chav/roadman/hipster population.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 09:21:53 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 07, 2023, 09:03:13 amThere is a bitmore to itthan what you suggest.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 09:29:33 am
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on October 07, 2023, 09:21:53 amThat’s pretty much an extrapolation of what I said.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 10:02:50 am
content: Well remember the hysteria when Mk3 Cortinas 2L OHC/Pinto motors caught fire with their fabric reinforced fuel line leaking onto the distributor.Where they ever ostracized or banned from the roads, no and never had a problem with mine.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 10:16:07 am
content: That's one model which was recalled versus an entire class of vehicle.Two entirely different problem domains.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 01:15:56 pm
content: The fires tend to be escooter batteries, I am unsure about ebikes so left them out. escooters by not being regulated are just being sold through channels that are hard to keep track of and therefore you get dangerous junk. I mean what has anyone thinking that if they buy an escooter from a non UK seller that they will get anything that is not dangerous. As the importer the buyer has default responsibility I believe (as an importer is the first buck that CE/UKCA stops at) and after that the buyer/importer can try suing a foreign seller - good luck. And people wonder why these things catch fire?

author: Poroit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2025, 06:50:41 am
content: "He says blazes were more commonly linked to e-bikes or e-scooters than small devices and had a rate of injury four times higher than other types of fire."https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-20/lithium-ion-batteries-10000-fires-australia-waste-management/104002912Are these e-bike and e-scooter fires caused by poor Battery Management techniques in the chargers or poor quality batteries?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2025, 11:16:24 am
content: Probably caused by a combination of both.Electric cars are very safe and carry a low risk of fire because manufacturers are larger, they cannot just dropship a car into the EU market and hand the customer the keys, customers expect service, retailers, the regulators require a nominated organisation to manage recalls etc.It seems for e-bikes/e-scooters so many of them are getting into the market through dodgy intermediator companies that look the other way when it comes to certification on these products. So they have batteries that have not been tested.What is the solution? Require a nominated contact/authority in the country that takes legal responsibility for the product, as any EU manufacturer would have. That would ideally be a larger organisation that can purchase some form of insurance or self-insure if large enough. The issue is right now a lot of these import organisations exist only on paper and have no assets. It needs to be made more legally watertight.Unfortunately, this will no doubt increase the cost of these products, but if you want safety, it does not come cheap.I note that at least in the UK, eBay no longer permits the private sale of e-bikes due to the high risk of fire from counterfeit and uncertified products, and they just do not want to deal with the liability, can't blame them. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5ywq8xgkkyo)

author: Poroit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 08:58:51 am
content: I will follow up our ACCC and see how strongly they are enforcing this problem.https://www.productsafety.gov.au/consumers/be-safe-around-the-home/safely-use-batteries-and-technology/lithium-ion-batteries-guide