Induction cooking EMF magnitude vs other things? Missus is a bit concerned. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: niels007
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 09:21:53 am
content: Hi all,We're moving house! yay!We may want to get an induction cooktop. I am not concerned by electromagnetism at all, but the wife is a little bit.I can't 100% convince her because I am a mechanical engineer, so I don't know anything about .... anything really!I could even be wrong (geez?!) and perhaps there is some justified concern.So how can we put induction cooking into perspective?How does it compare to other regular EMF's we experience regularly from various sources? What about exposed time, distance to source etc?Could we quantify the EMF in relation to other things? I read a hair drier for example generates a larger EMF than any cooktop might.. I have no idea!And compared to a gas cooktop which will mean some partially burned gasses and CO2 emission as well, that is certainly not 100% clean if we're really nit picking..What are some opinions and reasoning behind the pro's and cons?Thanks!Niels

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 11:27:14 am
content: Ugh...If she's worried about cancer... dump her now?There's no convincing someone like that, to understand statistics and significance. At least that I've heard of.If you're looking for the opinion of an EE, I would gladly give you my opinion on the subject -- if you'd like it in writing, I can even sell your wife a certificate saying as much!Maybe that wouldn't help. I don't know.What are we talking about, anyway? Cooktops aren't always-on. They're either off until turned on, or pulsing infrequently to check if a pot is present. The RMS EMF at the surface is not very large either way, when not actively heating something. When heating, it's only large under the work being heated.EMF drops off rapidly with distance. If your wife is so strange that she finds it enjoyable to read books while laying over the cooktop, I might be concerned, but only for mental health reasons, not for EMF reasons. Or if shoving her head towards a pot that's being heated, I would be more concerned for safety reasons, and then mental health reasons...There are biological effects of EMF, but not at these field strengths. Not by orders of magnitude. The primary effect is simply dumb old heating. Diathermy machines, microwave ovens, and the military's ADS, operate on this mechanism. There is no biological effect beyond heating (obviously, too much heat and you cause burns, but that's not unique to EMF). Strong pulsed fields can induce voltages in neural tissue (transcranial magnetic stimulation), which do have direct neural effects, but these are temporary.Anything that produces fields with too little energy to cause noticeable heating, or pulse peaks strong enough to cause noticeable induction, is completely and utterly inconsequential. Example: ESD can have quite large (peak) EMF, but is over very quickly, and delivers very little energy (on a human scale). (Anyway, sparks are well known to cause people to involuntarily jump or twitch. But again, that's just a neural stimulation thing, nothing more.)Tim

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 02:12:33 pm
content: These guys don't seem to be the least bit worried about playing in an electromagnetic field far greater than what any residential induction heating device puts out:

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 03:43:34 pm
content: A little bit of searching and I found these two articleshttp://medicalphysicsweb.org/cws/article/research/47390https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwiitYGi6pvaAhVIZFAKHSMgDskQFgguMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bag.admin.ch%2Fdam%2Fbag%2Fen%2Fdokumente%2Fstr%2Fnis%2Ffaktenblaetter-emf%2Ffaktenblatt-induktionskochherd.pdf.download.pdf%2Ffaktenblatt%2520induktionskochherd%2520e.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3grflxt_EihUi3eTw-lYdUhttp://medicalphysicsweb.org/cws/article/research/47390For induction hobs it's the magnetic field strength you need to be concerned about, and both articles state that in order to keep the stray magnetic field to a minimum you need to use a pan that is the same diameter as the cooking zone, common sense really.In addition the pan has to made from the right material. Ferromagnetic or steel pans are much better than copper or aluminium, I would have to do a bit more research to see how well stainless steel performs.It's also important to note that if an induction hob doesn't see a load i.e. a suitable cooking pot then it switches off.I've seen articles on the web where people lump induction hobs and microwave ovens under the same banner.With a microwave oven it is the electric field strength you need to be concerned about especially as they are designed to heat water molecules directly whereas an induction hob is designed to heat metal. Also, an oven with no load i.e. an empty oven will radiate far more than an oven with a load, a cup of coffee for example. I don't know of a manufacturer that makes a microwave oven that detects if it has a load or not, well not yet anyway.Over time things like loose door hinges will degrade the amount of RF shielding the oven will provide and EM leakage will increase.When did anybody on this forum last measure the leakage from their microwave oven ? For those interested there is a good article herehttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4884883/.From a very quick search I would say that induction hobs are a lot safer than microwave ovens.I'm going to have a stab at building a reasonably cheap and repeatable E field probe for 2.45 GHz but the antenna design is a big unknown, if anyone has done any work like this I would be very grateful to hear.Chris

author: TheDane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 04:09:47 pm
content: An alternative is IR cooking plates. They heat up very quickly as well.They do not make as much noise as the induction does (they tend to click to detect when to turn on - and hum quite a bit, at least to my ears).Since they work by emitting IR, there's little to no electromagnetic worries (they do run on electricity and may hum for a sec when initially turned on, but that should be internal to the plate, and shielded by design)And, the plus side is that you get to keep all of your cooking gear - no need to get new compatible pans, etchttps://www.google.com/search?q=ir+cooking+plate&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X

author: lem_ix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 04:15:57 pm
content: Try to find out what happened to this frog

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 09:49:48 pm
content: Quote from: TheDane on April 02, 2018, 04:09:47 pmAt first I thought it was just a normal glass cooktop, but it looks like its using halogen lamps.Can they sense if a pot is in place? Otherwise I would think there would be some risk of eye damage or burns from the high output IR no?

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 10:04:15 pm
content: Quote from: TheDane on April 02, 2018, 04:09:47 pmLast time I looked, infrared is on the electromagnetic spectrum.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 10:20:28 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on April 02, 2018, 09:49:48 pmNo more than with a space heater or conventional cooktop. The halogen lamps are optimized for producing heat, not visible light, and the ceramic is a deep red color that absorbs most of the visible light. My mom has a halogen cooktop and it only radiates slightly more heat than a conventional electric type. A gas flame or the fire in a wood stove gives off a lot of IR too, it doesn't melt your face off.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 11:38:23 pm
content: We have had an induction cook top for about 3yrs and are very happy with it. Perhaps the best 'selling point' is the flat glass surface is really easy to clean! They also heat up and cool down really quickly. Interestingly, I have not had any RF interference with my Amateur radio interests.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 12:22:51 am
content: Quote from: TheDane on April 02, 2018, 04:09:47 pmHaving used both, even a cheap ($20) induction cooker heats up and cools down way faster. Although it is true that most induction cookers have fans that do make some noise. Although that can be a disadvantage when cooking something you don't want to boil vigorously, the way it can stop heating instantly makes up for it. (Besides, if you know control theory, you'll use a thermometer so you'll know ahead of time to turn it down, right?) It's not very easy to connect most induction cookers to a PID controller (a project I plan to do in the future), so there's still a point having a really cheap resistive cooker for that use.The biggest annoyance of infrared glass cookers in my experience? Any spill gets baked onto the glass and you'll have quite a time scraping it off. With induction, just wipe it off with a paper towel and that's it.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 04:41:12 am
content: Quote from: VK5RC on April 02, 2018, 11:38:23 pmThey have resistive heating element glass top stoves also which are easy to clean.QuoteThe inductive ones should. The only thermal mass is the pan.QuoteA switching drive circuit is used for high efficiency but the inductive coupling is through an LC network made up of the resonating capacitor and flat wound spiral inductor which couples to the pan so the output is pretty clean.Magnetism follows the inverse cube law so it falls off more rapidly than electromagnetic radiation. Induction stove tops detect the presence of a suitable load to prevent self destruction so they do not operate without a pan present unlike say a gas or electric stove which can be left on.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 04:58:21 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on April 03, 2018, 04:41:12 amMy experience with infrared glass cookers is that spills get baked onto the glass and then have to be scraped off with quite a bit of effort. Maybe the one I used was of bad design?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 05:09:46 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 03, 2018, 04:58:21 amWell, easier to clean than spiral wound elements which is the only type of electric stove I have used.I have had good results using industrial Scotch-brite pads for cleaning burnt stainless pans. I don't think they would scratch a glass or ceramic cook-top.

author: TheDane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 09:11:29 am
content: It is true that IR is part of the electromagnetic spectrum - IR frequency is around 430 THz – 300 GHz - compared to induction where the electromagnetic freq is close to/near zero (50-100 Hz?).The induction field alternates, is my understanding - so comparing the health effects to a frog suspended in a static field is imho like comparing apples and oranges - and gas stoves with IR cooking plates.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared#Definition_and_relationship_to_the_electromagnetic_spectrumElectroboom did a video on induction heating, and naturally burning/hurting himself, along with some fun facts:Regarding usage and cleaning, I have had an IR solution (oven+4 cooking plates) for well over 14 years, and haven't been bothered much by burnt/damaged glass.If I got a severe spill, and it couldn't be wiped off - I have used a glass cleaning agent containing abrasive, water, silicone and some solvents - it works wonders:https://www.google.dk/search?q=toprens+glaskeramik&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=XThe glass has gotten a little bit scratched from usage, which I guess is quite normal when cooking on it on a regular basis, stirring and moving stuff around.Induction - heating stops the moment the pan/etc is moved/lifted from the plate = no more heat (good/bad - you decide)IR - heating continues, my plate turns down the output slightly (internal feedback?) - I can adjust the applied temperature more precisely/one side of the panGas - heating continues, temperature can (also) be adjusted accordingly.Resistive plate - slow and old school.Cook+ing is like a religion, some likes/loves/prefer one thing - and hates the other(s).Here in Denmark the english word 'food' is translated: 'mad'Now, regarding soldering - anybody noticed how hot it gets holding a Weller iron (resistive element) when using it at a steep angle? (say, under a microscope)- my Metcal is much cooler to use, as the tip isn't exposed that much. Metcal uses induction, at around 13 MHz. Best tool for the job.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/suggestions/induction-soldering-iron-review/

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 08:38:50 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 02, 2018, 10:20:28 pmThat makes me wonder about the IR's effectiveness. If the IR is not much more than a space heater or normal cooktop, how is it heating the pan any faster than a standard glass cooktop that does not advertise IR?edit: looks like there is some internal presence sensor if what TheDane says is happening:Quote from: TheDane on April 03, 2018, 09:11:29 am

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 11:19:51 pm
content: I assume it's just the fact that the burner heats up much faster. The lamp comes on and it's hot almost instantly, while the conventional elements take a few minutes to come up to temperature. I have not really experimented much though, personally I prefer my gas stove. It has instant heat too, and if I shut off the flame it's as good as taking the pan off the stove.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 11:29:36 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 03, 2018, 04:58:21 amThe big problem with some glass/ceramic top hobs is they use a really soft material, which scratches very badly, very quickly.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 11:45:00 pm
content: I'd put it to her like this.Imagine how many people regularly buy and cook on induction stoves.Then ask her how many of those people are dropping dead.Nobody that I am aware of has ever found a serious, real correlation between low power, low frequency EM and any measure of cancer or other serious disease. More power, and more EM can likely be had by walking near a power substation, a radio transmitter, and maybe even a power line.

author: TheDane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 10:37:09 am
content: "It is not disputed that electromagnetic fields above certain levels can trigger biological effects""Low-frequency magnetic fields induce circulating currents within the human body. The strength of these currents depends on the intensity of the outside magnetic field. If sufficiently large, these currents could cause stimulation of nerves and muscles or affect other biological processes."Regarding effects on pregnancy outcome:"The overall weight of evidence shows that exposure to fields at typical environmental levels does not increase the risk of any adverse outcome such as spontaneous abortions, malformations, low birth weight, and congenital diseases.""Effects on general healthSome members of the public have attributed a diffuse collection of symptoms to low levels of exposure to electromagnetic fields at home. Reported symptoms include headaches, anxiety, suicide and depression, nausea, fatigue and loss of libido. To date, scientific evidence does not support a link between these symptoms and exposure to electromagnetic fields.At least some of these health problems may be caused by noise or other factors in the environment, or by anxiety related to the presence of new technologies."- and some may be caused by exposure to the electromagnetic fields at homehttp://www.who.int/peh-emf/about/WhatisEMF/en/index1.htmlDirect (and to a lesser degree) exposure to IR can/will burn you physically (it will even ignite a cigaret/paper)Exposure to UV can/will change DNA cells permanently. -https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3010660/The thermal mass is much less in an IR cooking solution, hence the plate is 'red hot' instantly. The pan/pot will take some time to heat up initially, but the overall temperature of the contents imho heats up almost at the same rate. (Yes, I have used both kinds - IR and Induction)800+ watts of power is a bit!Hotdogs in microwave ovens, or heating dogs in gas ovens - not the same thing!https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-microwaved-pet/

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 02:20:43 pm
content: What would convince me to use an induction hob is if it could measure the temperature of the bottom of the pan (multi-wavelength pyrometer?) and regulate it, with an external probe as a more accurate alternative. No more need for sous vide gadgets, perfect control and repeatability. That would be something worth giving up gas for.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 03:27:07 pm
content: Quote from: VK5RC on April 02, 2018, 11:38:23 pmI’ve been using induction for nearly 10 years and it’s just awesome.Indeed, because the glass doesn’tneedto heat up (it’s only absorbing waste heat from the pan) it doesn’t get as hot, so food doesn’t bake into it.Quote from: TheDane on April 03, 2018, 09:11:29 amInduction stoves operate at 20-100KHz.Quote from: Marco on April 04, 2018, 02:20:43 pmMy $50 Aldi induction hotplate does just that. It has a thermistor or something that contacts the glass, both as an overheating sensor, but also for the temperature mode. Setting it to 100C does indeed produce a very gentle simmer.I would not be surprised if more advanced induction cookers do it better.I know some high-end Japanese rice cookers use induction with thermal sensors to provide very accurate cooking profiles.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 04:50:15 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 04, 2018, 03:27:07 pmThe effectiveness of those sensors depends a lot on the quality of thermal contact between the pot and the glass. They allow the hob to protect itself against wild temperatures, but the pot can still get really hot.Quote from: tooki on April 04, 2018, 03:27:07 pmWe have a top of the line Zojirushi induction heating pressure cooking rice cooker. The induction aspect made it a lot more expensive than the similar looking Zojirushi model with resistive heating, but it doesn't offer any practical advantage. The resistive heating ones keep very tight control over the cooking, and are silent. The induction ones have an annoying cooling fan. I'd buy the resistive heating one next time. I know from the experience of friends that other makes, like Panasonic, are similar. The benefits of the pressure cooking angle seem marginal, too. Don't expect a pressure cooking rice cooker to speed up the cooking. They are usually a bit slower than similar models without the non-pressure cooking feature. The pressurisation is supposed to force more moisture into the core of the rice grains, and achieve a more even softness.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 07:38:52 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 04, 2018, 04:50:15 pmThere's a ridiculously expensive induction hot plate which has a probe on a spring beneath the pan aimed at the molecular cooking crowd ... but then you sacrifice the easy cleaning.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 07:47:56 pm
content: A probe on a spring? Expensive?That's 50s tech! Some early heating coil stoves have those! Little mechanical thermostats in the middle of the coils.EDIT: I know it's now a thermistor with microprocessor shenanigans, but it's still a simple principal. No mystical voodoo...

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 07:59:46 pm
content: The device is expensive, not the technology.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 08:02:45 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on April 04, 2018, 07:47:56 pmYou'd be surprised at the lack of sensible tech that makes it into consumer stoves/ovens.I had to pay a small fortune for an inductive cooktop with a 7-segment display and a simple digital on/off timer, something that has been around for decades and could be made with less than $5 in parts.The base Miele oven doesn't even have a CLOCK, you have to pay hundreds more for the "high end" version with one.

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 08:12:40 pm
content: Well to be fair its completely unknown if its possible to have someone that is sensitive to low frequency EM fields. Even microwaves could theoretically cause thermal gradients in the brain, which could effect functioning, though it is expected that with all the circulation that occurs in these regions and the thermal time constants the effects are rather small, despite the fact that they are way faster then anything in our body.Personally, if I had the money, I would shield everything, including power lines (probably use DC here) and hardwire everything... if only to make scientific pursuit easierYou could try to live in a radio quiet area for a while, to see if you feel any different, but your mood is very subjective to so many things that its difficult to isolate factors that are probably negligible like low strength electric fields.It does make me wonder though, if something in the brain could go high impedance somehow and be effected by fields, I am sure alot of people here have seen this on fried transistors.I would say that it is a good conjecture though that, at least harmful effects of electric fields are blocked, due to the fact that life evolved with natural RF noise sources like lightning... but the present day situation is a bit different.easy for engineers to yell that nothing is wrong, but im sure chemists said the same thing about certain pesticides etc.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 02:04:37 am
content: Quote from: coppice on April 04, 2018, 04:50:15 pmI think the real advantage of induction heating is better control. Resistive heating can also be controlled remarkably well with a triac, but apparently the cost over a relay is hard to justify if they can't get very much marketing boost putting it in.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 03:37:41 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 05, 2018, 02:04:37 amOnly cheap rice cookers use a relay to switch the heater. Since the early 90s the nicer models have all used fuzzy logic to keep tight control of the heater throughout the cooking cycle. That's pretty much the same controller, whether you have a resistive heater or an induction one.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 05:48:59 am
content: Quote from: coppice on April 05, 2018, 03:37:41 amMy parents have bought several rice cookers over the years and the only one that didn't have a relay clicking on and off throughout the cooking cycle was the one that had an induction cooker. (Most usual failure point is the coating on the pot starting to flake off despite being treated with a lot of care.) It probably also helps that induction has basically instant response although I suppose a resistive heater's thermal inertia can be compensated for somewhat in software.I personally use a standalone induction cooker and a high end stainless steel pot, because the combo costs less than a high end rice cooker and can do far more. It does take a little trial and error to get the settings right but engineers like having control over the whole process.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 05:31:35 pm
content: I would have thought a triac would be cheaper than a relay. Certainly when I've actually bought triacs and relays the triac and related parts have been similar or less.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 05:48:26 pm
content: To be honest, I prefer gas anyways. I don't care what electronic device you have, temperature is nowhere near as good as a gas flame. Also, it's usable if the power goes out.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 05:55:13 pm
content: I prefer gas in a cooktop, but electric is arguably superior for an oven, and it's certainly more convenient for a self contained gadget. I cook a lot of burgers on one of those George Foreman widgets, it's super convenient and the amount of grease it extracts is actually a little disturbing. Heating both sides at once it will cook a hamburger patty in just a few minutes, electric works nicely for that application.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 02:31:13 am
content: I have been teaching myself to cook with a cast iron pan for a couple of years now so once I have the stove settings figured out, I do not care what kind of stove it is. Gas would be nice for a wok type of pan though which I have not tried yet. Lodge makes some cast iron woks which they advertise as suitable for induction heating so I assume they would work on a resistive heating stove also.I did my first hamburgers a couple months ago using my pan and they were perfect on the first try and resulted in easy clean up but that just takes experience.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 02:46:07 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 05, 2018, 05:31:35 pmAt high current, the cost of building in the heatsinking is not negligible. At low currents, they are in fact cheaper.Quote from: TwoOfFive on April 05, 2018, 05:48:26 pmConsidering induction furnaces can easily heat metal to white hot, it's safe to say electric is capable of getting way hotter than what you need for cooking food. "Preppers" generally recommend some sort of camping stove (most likely one capable of burning wood) as a backup because (obviously) you can take it with you if it is necessary to evacuate.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 03:49:29 am
content: There's a large gap between doomsday preppers and the sort of minor emergency like power outages that occur now and then in the winter. I do like being able to light my kitchen stove with a match, I don't get many power outages here but there's usually one every few years that lasts a day or two.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 04:32:15 am
content: I just realized the one who says rice cookers that use triacs are very common is in 240V country, where the current is halved for a given power compared to 120V. Considering the biggest market for rice cookers - China - is also a 240V country, there's a lot of R&D put into 240V rice cookers.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 06:18:39 am
content: Dump the induction hob and buy a gas one, take it from someone who cooks every day and enjoys it.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 06:58:07 am
content: Quote from: CJay on April 06, 2018, 06:18:39 amNot everyone has access to gas. Those who do, in warmer climates, might not find the service charge worth it.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 10:01:24 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 03, 2018, 12:22:51 amBiggest issue IME is that if a pan drips a little salty water onto the touch controls they go haywire.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 01:05:15 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on April 06, 2018, 10:01:24 amA lot of work has gone into taming that problem. A recent well designed hob is pretty hard to disrupt through water spillage.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 02:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 06, 2018, 06:58:07 amI'll add 'if possible' then.I've yet to find an electric hob that's anywhere near as nice to cook on as a gas hob but of course, I've not tried them all.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 07:45:20 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on April 06, 2018, 02:45:13 pmAnd I couldn't stand cooking on gas: fumes, noisy ventilation required, no nice smooth cooktop that is easy to clean and slide pans across, less efficient, and can't be used as flat counter space easily. Its a personal preference thing.

author: TheDane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 07:51:26 pm
content: Burning gas/methane/carbonhydrides is anything far from healthy - make sure you have plenty of ventilation to the outside"* Around 3 billion people cook and heat their homes using open fires and simple stoves burning biomass (wood, animal dung and crop waste) and coal.* Over 4 million people die prematurely from illness attributable to the household air pollution from cooking with solid fuels.* More than 50% of premature deaths due to pneumonia among children under 5 are caused by the particulate matter (soot) inhaled from household air pollution.* 3.8 million premature deaths annually from noncommunicable diseases including stroke, ischaemic heart disease, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) and lung cancer are attributed to exposure to household air pollution."http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs292/en/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane#CombustionCoal can be used to make methane, so it is not every biomass-burner who lives in a 'developing country' -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_Gasification_Company

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 08:02:20 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on April 06, 2018, 07:45:20 pmNot sure what kind of gas you use that requires noisy ventilation, we use methane which only requires enough airflow to provide the oxygen necessary to burn clean, the only time noisy ventilation is required is when there's lots of odour or steam from the food being cooked (or I've burned something)

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 08:06:08 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on April 06, 2018, 08:02:20 pmI was wondering what kind of electric hob doesn't require a noisy exhaust fan to suck away all the food fumes? Electric frying without a cooker hood soon greases up the whole kitchen.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 08:48:51 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on April 06, 2018, 08:02:20 pmNatural gas, it does burn quite clean but you still need enough exhaust airflow to pull away the carbon dioxide and other combustion fumes. Whether or not you are using the recommended level of ventilation I can't say. I think for 20k BTU, required airflow is 200 CFM (probably not too loud with a decent fan, but would have to measure the air quality to know for sure).https://www.mercurynews.com/2013/12/25/home-gas-ranges-produce-toxic-gases-lawrence-berkeley-lab-study-says/Quote from: coppice on April 06, 2018, 08:06:08 pmI rarely turn mine on and if needed its on low (I don't fry with high heat), its not as loud as the level you are supposed to use when cooking with gas.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 09:22:37 pm
content: I think you'd have to be doing serious enough cooking to need the exhaust fan on anyway for the fumes from natural gas to matter. Certainly the basic cooking I do has not been a problem, I have a CO detector near my stove and I've never seen it register anything at all, just the natural convection seems to be enough to carry the draft up the vent hood whether the fan is on or not. There's a damper flap but it's not airtight. Burning gas with a blue flame is a lot different than burning solid fuel like wood or charcoal.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 09:23:53 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 06, 2018, 09:22:37 pmCO2 not CO, you won't see CO unless there are some serious issues with incomplete combustion (poor engine or starved for oxygen).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 09:26:02 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 06, 2018, 09:22:37 pmPeople were cooking with coal gas, LPG and methane hobs in their kitchens for a century before cooker hoods started to become common. The death toll seemed quite low.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 09:31:06 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 06, 2018, 09:26:02 pmHouses were far less airtight in the past though. Modern homes are sealed up so well that they have to deliberately add all sorts of ventilation. I've been in old houses where you could feel the drafts on breezy days, that makes it a lot harder for fumes to accumulate.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2018, 12:18:58 am
content: Quote from: coppice on April 06, 2018, 09:26:02 pmCoal gasis very unlike LPG or methane. It has a high enough CO content to kill you quickly if *not* burnt. That is where the ideal of sticking your head in the oven to kill yourself comes from.I have never had a problem cooking with residential natural gas and while we always had a fume hood, it was only used when otherwise the kitchen would be filled with smoke.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2018, 12:20:40 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 06, 2018, 03:49:29 amOne week without power after an ice storm was enough to cause me to invest in a generator and both backup kerosene and propane heating. We lose power here a couple times a year for most of a day.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2018, 01:58:53 am
content: Living in the electric city, my area has lost power for a significant (over 10 minutes) amount of time twice in the last 10 years. So my statement about being able to use it without power isn't quite from experience.My stove burns natural gas, and I have never in my life turned on the exhaust fan unless I needed to get some smoke out of the room, (I always test the smoke detector while cooking, with my cooking) and I haven't keeled over from CO2poisoning.If natural gas is a viable option, use it. We have municipal gas that comes from the street, so tanks aren't an issue for us. If you have a similar option, I wouldn't hesitate with gas.As for the danger of induction cooking, there is more energy and harm from the EM radiation that comes from the sun or some powerful halogen lamps than an induction stovetop. If the alternative is an open fire that DOES consume oxygen, then neither are worse than each other going by anecdotal statistics alone.As a person who likes to cook for myself, gas is the best way to work. You can control the heat WAY faster than you can induction. You don't really loose any amenities either, as my gas stove has piezoelectric spark plugs (get a pilot light stove if possible, though, as the sparkly on one of our burners works only about half the time, whereas a pilot light will always work unless it goes out, which is rare in my experience), electric oven, warming drawer, and broiler control, as well as a convection fan and timer.Electric, in my opinion, is more suited to smaller installations, or installations where gas isn't practical. I see them as substitutes, and not alternatives. IMO tho.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2018, 03:42:29 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on April 06, 2018, 06:18:39 amHaving cooked on various conventional electric stoves, gas, and induction: between gas and induction, what mattters more is the quality and power, not whether it’s gas or induction (with one caveat I’ll get to later). I’d rather a good induction stove over an anemic gas one. For a typical home stove, induction heats even faster than gas, turns off equally fast, and is easier to clean.The big caveat is that not all pans work on induction. Cast iron, steel, and modern sandwich-construction pans work great. But pure copper or aluminum will not work at all. So IMHO induction can’t be a 100% replacement for a conventional stove. IKEA used to sell mini 2-burner stoves designed to be assembled like tiles into larger units. IMHO, two induction ones of those, plus one gas one, would be a dream stove.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2018, 03:45:23 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 06, 2018, 06:58:07 amYep. Many apartment buildings no longer run gas into the units, even if they have gas service in the basement for boilers and whatnot. (My parents’ condo is like that.)So if gas isn’t an option, induction is a really great alternative, certainly superior to conventional glasstop electric (never mind older style electric).

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2018, 05:15:40 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 07, 2018, 03:45:23 pmI think safety is a big reason why. Very few gas stoves have a safety shutoff in case the fire goes out, and then it becomes an explosion hazard. (Why there's no UL requirement for that when the cost to add it is minimal is beyond me.) A bare flame is also most likely to ignite spilled oil, while induction is least likely and even has sensors to prevent overheating.Quote from: tooki on April 07, 2018, 03:42:29 pmThere are induction cookers that do work with copper or aluminum. The challenge is getting good efficiency when the pot is nearly as conductive as anything you can realistically make the primary coil out of. I remember reading that GaN would allow for higher frequencies that can work with the skin effect to our advantage.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2018, 05:36:08 pm
content: I see Panasonic does have IR temperature sensors now, guess it can work. Will cost you 1500$ for a 4 hob though.For their commercial hobs they have one which can use copper and aluminium now too. Not that I really see the point, copper is pretty much a fashion accessory and the only aluminium pans I have are non stick and those are not exactly lifetime tools.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2018, 05:38:13 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 07, 2018, 05:15:40 pmIn Europe I see very few gas hobs with a flame failure cutout. It surprises me there are so few accidents. In East Asia every hob I have seen has a cutout. They can be a pain sometimes, as the sensors are very sensitive to dirt, and you often have to clean them before the flame will stay on. They are, however, pretty safe.

author: Iwanushka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2018, 06:03:58 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 07, 2018, 05:38:13 pmStrange even my crappy 5+ year old 4 hob gas stove + eclectic oven made by electrolux for less than 300$ has gas leak protection which is annoying as hell it will even close valves if gas is burning for less than 10sec and Im from Eastern Europe where they sell crap only...

author: Edison
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:18:28 pm
content: Speed - induction, gas - the fastest almost identical- halogen - between induction and glass ceramics- ceramic hob - rapid onset / longer stop- Electric plate - slow start / stop very longUtensils - Induction - Required special dishes (material with specific magnetic saturation, iron not suitable - device overloaded)For magnetic non-conducting vessels (stainless steel, glass), induction mats can be purchased.Important - Take care to install the induction plate - Have enough air access for cooling, the distance of metal objects (drawer with metal cutlery, metal utensils etc

author: Yellofriend
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 05:52:21 am
content: Quote from: Edison on April 08, 2018, 01:18:28 pmMy induction is faster that than the gas I have. Induction goes pretty much 100% were is should go, gas heat also heats the room.Quote from: Edison on April 08, 2018, 01:18:28 pmI have an iron steak pan that I use with induction. That gets hot, really hot, about 4-500°C. I use a layer of glass fabric under it as thermal insulator so the back heat doesn't damage the hob. Have one pan though where the base bulges down when hot, so the pan spins on the hob. No problem on gas though.For all my other puts and pans, there was one pot that didn't work because of pure stainless steel base. All others work.When I pot/pan shop I bring a magnet.Radiation concerns? None whatsoever. It's closed magnetic circuit. And you you worry about stray magnetism, any house is full of that anyway.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 09:06:23 am
content: Quote from: tooki on April 07, 2018, 03:42:29 pmAbsolutely agree, I'd rather have a good induction than a poor gas hob and no, the energy source does not matter at all, it's the delivery and granularity of the control that's most important.Hitting something with a great whack of heat isn't always the best thing (unless it's a steak) so speed is not that big an issue.Cleaning, I have a dishwasher for the burners and grills if I make a complete mess of the hob (rare) otherwise a wipe down with a damp cloth is all that's usually required.What can I say, it's personal preference and I can buy whatever cookware suits my tastes/needs (I like heavy duty restaurant kitchen grade cookware) instead of having to check if it's induction compatible (mine aren't).YMMV, I fully accept some people have different tastes.

author: Edison
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 07:03:42 pm
content: A typical feature of using unsuitable dishes for induction,the burned coil of the measuring coil, under the dielectric layer (on which the white maps show the change of structure by excessive warming) is the working coil which is in .........