Rigol DM3058 "Hold" trigger mode. What use is it? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 05:10:10 pm
content: The Rigol is my first "proper" bench PSU.I always wondered what the RUN/HOLD button was for, other than lighting up in RUN, extinguishing in SINGLE (which does actually hold its reading), and flashing when in HOLD (which doesn'tseemto hold anything at all). Reading the Chinglish documentation made mention of some formula and the settings of 0.01% - 10% in the trigger setup.Testing with a PSU it does indeed "hold" the reading on the display until the voltage falls outside the window. For example, set the trigger to 10% and measure 10V then lower the PSU voltage. The display won't change until the PSU drops below 9V (including removing the test leads) or rises above 11V. However, it still appears to trigger anyway and records the "false" held readings in the history log. I would have thought if it was any use at all it wouldn't record more than the initial decided on "held" reading and stop recording until a measurement outside of the held range is triggered.I just put this down as a feature important to proper electronics engineers far more worthy and knowledgable than me. I mean Rigol dedicated a whole backlit button to it and made it flash!I recently got a Keithley 2015 and decided to give it's Hold a whirl. What do you know? It is utterly brilliant. It has the same window settings of 0.01% - 10% along with a sample count (default 5). Not only does the trigger actually work as in it only records the held reading once, but when you take the leads off it only freaking actually HOLDS the reading on the display until you go and probe somewhere else. You just place your probes wait for the beep and go and look at the display with the probes removed. The Rigol just shows the 0 volt noise like it does in regular RUN mode here.So... WTF is this function for on the Rigol, and why has nobody else brought it up? Now I know what it should do it's implementation is an utter joke. Unless someone can tell me otherwise?

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2015, 08:43:49 pm
content: I have the Rigol 3058E and the Keithley 2000.On the Rigol, the 'Reading Hold' seems to work as advertised, displaying a new seed when a measurement falls outside the % set window.On the Keithley, the 'Reading Hold' is slighly different. It also displays a new seed when a measurement falls outside the % set window, but, depending on the rate and number of samples settings, when the probes are removed from the DUT, the last measurement may remain on the screen for long enough to take note of it, the meter acting like a Fluke AutoHold.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2015, 10:04:09 pm
content: But what is that used for? Also why does it hold it on the display, but carry on recording (like its not triggering at all - just running as usual) wasting data points in memory?It clearly is something I am missing. I can only imagine something really really obscure for a "feature" like that. So why all the prominence of it being a front backlit button, flashing away to show its stuff. It must be a really important and popular function that everyone asks for to hold such prominence rather than hidden away in the trigger menu somewhere. Why is it in the trigger settings anyway? (I mean I could understand its useful for something if it stops filling memory until the trigger condition, like the Keithley, but it doesn't)Also, does the DM3068 exhibit the same behaviour?

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2015, 10:30:43 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on August 13, 2015, 08:43:49 pmIndeed it does. In fact I left it there all day, plenty of time to take note. It also only used 1 datapoint in the memory.Of course for a feature like autohold to work it is important to not operate the meter in super high impedance mode as when the leads are removed the stray capacitance causes the stray voltages to ramp up as I am sure you are aware with your Keithley. So when in trigger hold mode the Keithley switches to regular 10M ohm impedance.The Rigol manual also states that when in reading hold mode the meter is put in low impedance. This can only be for a proper autohold function to work as it only applies when the leads are removed from DUT, so why do Rigol implement this step?Thanks for your response wytnucls, because I feel like a loner losing his mind on this one

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 09:45:14 pm
content: The Keithley doesn't always hold the last reading with the probes disconnected. Try 10V at 10% in Fast mode with 2 samples only.I think the problem on the Rigol DM3058 is that the number of samples cannot be set for the Reading Hold. It is stuck at a very low setting.On the Rigol DM3068, the number of samples can be set very high for the reading Hold and it probably behaves more like the Keithley.I suspect the DM3058 was meant to work in the same manner, but Rigol screwed it up somehow.Most bench meters have the Reading Hold feature with the percentage setting, sometimes calling it Auto Hold, like the Agilent U1231A.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 12:09:23 am
content: Yes. I think they royally screwed up on this one. The keithley defaults to 5 samples, the Rigol fixed to 3. But there is more to it than that.I reckon someone from the marketing dept. decided that the 3058 can't possibly have the same nice features as the 3068... "what can we cut? other than the 1 digit? Oh.... well, we can get rid of the trend feature.... just leave the histogram. MmmmKayy. Oh not the live histogram - make the plebs keep pressing the update button... Whats that? Allow them to trigger on a measurement window? Nononono - yes that is built into the Pass/Fail whotsmebob, but we have to remove at least 1 trigger so that will have to go... What's that - the engineers are saying its fundamental to the Reading Hold?? What do they know? Marketing knows best... it has been ordained"...and so the 3058 "Reading Hold" is a total fail - biggest button on the meter and light flashing but utterly useless. I mean I can hold a reading just by pressing "Single" - I just need 3 hands but at least that doesn't fill up the memory buffer with useless readings.Ok. I think I have ascertained that this is a proper fail despite your best will in the world to prove me wrong. I'm going to moan at Rigol!

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 01:15:22 am
content: I've just tried the Keithley in fast mode with no filtering (iinsanely fast) and 3 samples like the Rigol according to the user guide - 10V and 10% and it holds the reading perfectly for a good minute or so then drops and holds another "noise" reading... I think the 5 sample default is probably a good setting - the Keithley sits there all day with a reading if you let it.Any DM3068 owners willing to explain how the hold functions on their meters? I don't recall it being shown on the Signal Path review - I'll have to watch it again. I noticed Shahriar recently reviewed the Siglent SDM3055 5.5 digit meter which is surely the competitor to the aging DM3058. He demonstrates its hold function and how it records readings into a kind of spreadsheet. Just a shame the meter is so slow! (which doesn't make sense as it is using the same 24 bit ADC as the DM3068!)

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 04:02:29 pm
content: If you want an Auto Hold on the Rigol, use the Single mode with slow speed with a trigger after 10 samples. That should give you about 5 seconds to take a measurement, leaving the probes on the DUT until the time is up. Press Single before each new measurement.Cumbersome, but better than nothing.

author: JimStar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2018, 10:12:25 pm
content: Quote from: WytnuclsOne more, some faster working method - is just using "Max" (or "Min") function. This way there is no need to wait for 5 seconds or be in rush to hit probes into the right places under the microscope in just 5 seconds.Unfortunately there is no "one press" button to reset the result before the next measure, but pressing "REL"twiceworks for that purpose (you just need to open the menu first, 'cause in "Min/Max" mode it's hidden by default).Or just attach some handheld to it by a tape, that has this function working properly...I've had a conversation with Rigol about it (quoted below), but looks like they are completely unwilling to fix this ridiculous bug (show-stopper in my workflow). Despite the fact they confirm that this is a bug and they even have this bug-ticket in their bug-tracker system.Absolutely ridiculous thing: for many years still continue advertising the "Hold" function sitting on the big lit dedicated button in the center of device, that does NOTHING when activated in comparison to when it's not activated...Such a shame, 'cause I really like this device other than that...Quote from: meQuote from: RigolQuote from: meQuote from: RigolQuote from: meQuote from: RigolHave not heard from them anymore. Will keep this updated if some news...

author: emartine
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2022, 06:38:11 pm
content: Hello! Was this ever fixed? Thanks!

author: JimStar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2024, 02:35:03 am
content: Still not fixed... Not even one firmware update since then.

author: JimStar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2024, 09:07:17 pm
content: I wrote them again, and got some answers...Quote from: meFirstly got an auto-answer from their ticket-system:Quote from: RigolI answered with another message to that new ticket:Quote from: meToday I got a response from some real person:Quote from: RigolLet's see in a month if they finally fix this...

author: JimStar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 10:03:14 pm
content: Good news guys!I've just got a reply from Rigol, they've finally fixed it.Almost.They sent me a test version of fixed firmware, and the "Hold" button finally started working! Unfortunately still 90% of times, where sometimes it did not stop listening and did not show any value and continued blinking... I needed to disable/re-enable it, and next time it worked. But even in this state it is already a big deal. Big thanks to Rigol guys who finally started working on this.I'm not sure if it would be a good idea for me to attach a test-firmware here that they gave me, 'cause it was a file directly attached to their e-mail to me... So I reported them that in some cases it still doesn't work, and I'll wait some time if they fix this final minor issue... I think they will finally release a new version on their site. Let's wait for their answer to my latest reply/report first...

author: JimStar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 09:25:40 am
content: Firstly they were unable to reproduce the last issue. I've sent them a video in addition, and they've just answered that they were finally able to reproduce it. They said it will take some time to investigate if that last thing can be fixed...Looks like these guys who are dealing with this now - are really responsive and dedicated to get this sorted out (in comparison to those I talked to few years ago). Really good level of support from Rigol now!In addition I advised them to addBEEPto the event when the value finally freezes in the Hold-mode. So that when you're holding two small spots under the microscope - you'd know exactly when the measurement got already frozen on the screen and you can now remove the probes and finally look at the screen... Otherwise you're just holding the probes, counting inside your head, and praying that the value is already there when you decided that enough time already passed..This will be a really cool device in this price range, if they finally implement/fix these two remaining things.So lets wait some more... Hope they finally fix this final issue. And I really hope they add a beep to the Hold-event, which is important...

author: JimStar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 08:59:20 am
content: OK, Rigol fixed this finally.They've really done a great job with that: not only the "Hold" button function now works, but they've even listened to me and implemented a BEEP when the value appears on the screen! So now it's very convenient to hit the points under a microscope and know when the value is ready to read on the screen.The only minor thing still happens sometimes: when a contact flickering happens (e.g. probes slipped few times before finally hit the spots) - it may not hold any value anymore no matter how long the probes are held after that... Disabling/re-enabling the "Hold" button returns that to normal again, until next time contact flickering happens.Rigol sent me a firmware update file to test it. After testing I asked them if it would be OK to publish this file on EEVblog forum - they gave me permission to do that. They just mentioned that: "but for the formal version on the web, we still need follow the publication process and wait some time".So here is the firmware-update file attached: feel free to update yourDM3058with this fixed firmware (using standard Rigol update steps), but please keep in mind thatI am not responsible for any of your troubles if you do so.

author: dustooff
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 07:43:24 am
content: Hi, my 3058E was back in 2014 with ...02.01.00, so I did the update to ...02.03.01.00.all checked Ok, then did the HOLD update, now it is ...02.04.03.00Confirmed the hold does as required, amazing.Will have to go through the cal procedure next.Also did my 3068, didn't realise that was still at ...01.06.00I did buy it in 2009 though, and it gets daily workouts on the tech bench.it's like having new toys.AndrewB.