More headaches for Arduino (this time, it's personal!) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 12:11:27 pm
content: https://blog.adafruit.com/2017/06/09/free-arduino-by-dalepd-freearduino-make-arduinoorg-federicomusto-arduino-makebusiness/Poor old Arduino! Having patched up their previous problems, they are now being targeted by Adafruit and MAKE magazine to have control of Arduino taken away from them. Limor Fried, Phil Torrone and Dale Dougherty are behind this campaign, which is a surprise because they are supposedly friends of Open Source. They say they are unhappy with one of the people now running Arduino (Federico Musto) because he fibbed on his CV or something - surely that is entirely an issue for Arduino? Maybe Adafruit are just trying to get a discount on royalties?

author: MagicSmoker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 12:46:00 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 14, 2017, 12:11:27 pmLying about receiving a PhD from MIT and an MBA from New York University would seem to deserve a bit more strong of a verb than "fibbed"...Article in Wired about Musto

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 01:08:17 pm
content: It's a bit naughty and reflects poorly on his general character but, honestly, what difference does it matter what degree you did or didn't get 25 years ago? What's been done in 25 years of career since then is far more important. The sad thing is that anyone ever cares about it -- and that he thought it important enough to lie about it.Three year BSc from cow town Hamilton NZ, 1985, and proud of it.Currently working on compilers for Exynos, GPUs, systolic processors etc at Samsung R&D Institute Rus, Moscowpreviously worked on JavaScript at Mozillapreviously worked on an embedded Java compiler at Innaworks in Wellingtonpreviously WeatherScape TV weather graphics, "intelligent network" telephone exchange software at eServe Global in Newlands (now part of Oracle), an H1B wage slave (well, US$120k in 2001) at some web firm in Chicago, and I can't even remember what was in the 90s and late 80sI don't remember the last time an employer even asked about my degree, unless they later needed that for getting a visa for their country (USA, Russia, whatever).Credentialism sucks. What can you actually *do*?

author: MagicSmoker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 01:49:35 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on June 14, 2017, 01:08:17 pmOh, I totally agree with you that what a persona has done is far, far more important than what pieces of paper they might have managed tobuyearn, but lying about getting a degree is both unsavory as well as stupid; it's just too easy to verify this these days.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 01:51:57 pm
content: The point is that he lied. In Germany such a lie in your CV is a proper reason to get fired immediately. I don't care much about degrees either but I've already fired employees for being dishonest.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 01:58:04 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 14, 2017, 01:51:57 pmLet's assume he did lie. If an exec misbehaves, it's a matter for the Arduino shareholders. It's not a matter for Adafruit. If they think it is, it should be expressed privately to Arduino.Adafruit have launched a campaign to take control from Arduino. Is that justified?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 02:31:27 pm
content: Basically I fully agree that such things should be handled in private. But in this case it's not about the CEO of company but about the possible CEO of a foundation if I got that right. Lots of politics involved.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 02:50:26 pm
content: I haven't followed this whole thing closely, but I'm a bit concerned about this:QuoteCorrect me if I'm wrong, but didn't most people applaud the new Arduino Foundation announcement at the time?Make didn't seem to have any comment on it at the timehttp://makezine.com/2016/10/01/arduino-cc-arduino-org-reconcile-settlement-agreement-become-one-company/Were is the evidence that "The real reason for an Arduino Foundation is to free Arduino from Federico Musto"?Massimo embraced Federico Musto at the announcement, so it's not like he's suddenly just come along as taken control of the foundation, right?And this:QuoteWhy specifically single out Musto? Because they don't like him?I don't know him from a bar of soap, but if they want to exclude him then why not Massimo as well?And the OP said:QuoteWhere is the evidence that Adafruit are "behind this"?, it's a re-posted article by Dale Dougherty and re-published on the Adafruit Blog like tons of other stuff.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 02:54:40 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 14, 2017, 01:58:04 pmThey did no such thing. They simply re-posted a blog post on the Makezine website. That's what they do on their blog.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 03:31:50 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 14, 2017, 02:54:40 pmOh, for sure Adafruit are behind it.https://plus.google.com/+adafruit/posts/LsPHyX86LMbQuoteThat seems to be it, Limor Fried seems to have taken a personal dislike to Federico Musto. Musto seems to have fabricated his entire academic record (degrees, MBA, PhD). I wonder if that is why he left Red Hat in unexplained circumstances?https://www.wired.com/2017/04/arduinos-new-ceo-federico-musto-may-fabricated-academic-record/Quote(my bolding)She seems to have taken it real personal, a vendetta even. I guess Limor would be happy to just get rid of Musto. But he owns 50% of Arduino, I don't see how that happens.Phil Torrone is husband of Limor Fried, and an editor at Make magazine. He's supporting his spouse, bless him. They seem to have got others like Wired and Cory Doctorow involved too. I find it remarkable though that Adafruit are trying to create a social campaign to interfere in Arduino's business, especially after they told me not to "stir up internet outrage" and criticize their (Adafruit's) business! It seems ok when Adafruit does it...

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 03:35:02 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 14, 2017, 02:31:27 pmIt's called "Arduino Foundation", but it is a private company wholly owned by the Arduino group. I still don't see how third parties think they are entitled to poke their nose in.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 03:50:20 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 14, 2017, 03:31:50 pmDoctorow. I've enjoyed his fiction ("Down and out...", "Eastern Standard Tribe") and Disney history stuff. He does some good work on digital rights.He's pretty reliably wrong (sometimes Not Even Wrong) on everything else :-(

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 07:32:03 pm
content: The solution to not being publicly called out as a liar is eminently simple.The risks of allowing unrepentant, serial liars to function as as business heads should be equally obvious to all.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 07:38:49 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on June 14, 2017, 07:32:03 pmThat's weird. In my experience, being an unrepentant serial liar is a prerequisite for senior executive management.I don't like to use the term "snowflake"... but there is a lot of shit that goes on in business that is far worse than lying about credentials... you know, like ignoring repeated warnings about fire hazards.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 07:43:01 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 14, 2017, 07:38:49 pmYes, and it's so hard to weed these people out, let's just take the victories anywhere we can get them. I can settle for N-1 liars at the top today.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 11:00:08 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on June 14, 2017, 07:43:01 pmWhilst I agree in principle, trying to oust someone from a company they own part of (rightly or wrongly) just because you don't like them and/or they lied is not the right move.If the Arduino foundation is being taken in a direction that is potentially bad for the community thenthatis a reason to act.And that does seem to be the case:1) The following domains are registered by and owned by Arduino AG of which Musto has the controlling share. The registrants name i Musto's and email is settlement@arduino.ccArduino.orgarduinofoundation.infoarduinofoundation.comarduinofoundation.netarduinofoundation.usThat's not right, they should be owned by the legal entity of the foundation.2) New Arduino boards have two of Musto's companies silkscreened on the back (linino.org and Dog Hunter):This is not a good direction and/or starting point for a new open source foundation.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 12:01:22 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 14, 2017, 03:35:02 pmBecause it's how the "Arduino community" has evolved I guess. People feel it (and the name) should be "free" from personal/corporate interest. A major problem has always been the Trademarked name.But ultimately someone/some group has to maintain the code which iseverything.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 12:01:57 am
content: Article by Evil Mad Scientist:http://www.evilmadscientist.com/2017/arduino-and-open-source-hardware/The lack of open source files for new boards appears worrying.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 12:25:47 am
content: Here is what I think...When Arduino.cc and Arduino.org started the fight, Adafruit (Limor) helped the more open Arduino side (Arduino.cc) by manufacturing the Arduino boards in the US for the US market. Now that they re-grouped, I am sure Adafruit was left out and I guess they did a huge investment by buying expensive SMD pick and place and reflow ovens... and maybe also PCB manufacturing capabilities to manufacture the Arduino boards in NYC and I am sure if Musto is still behind the joined Arduino company, production is going back to Italy to Arduino.org manufacturing facilities... maybe there is a business betrayal behind this.I think education background is not as important as work experience and ethics, but the fact that Musto lied about his education credentials, for sure he conducts business the same way.Note: I was wrong about my assumption posted above and Phil Torrone and Dave corrected:CORRECTION: Phil Torrone had commented directly on this and I quote:"zero! we never had any "financial vested interest in this" - we helped arduino.cc for a limited time 2 years ago with the goal of them settling, they did. we did not purchase any equipment because of arduino.cc, they owe us no money" and "arduino was not even a significant part of our business, at all."

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 12:37:13 am
content: Ego, pride and money.Meanwhile the majority of "makers" will continue to buy their "arduinos" from China directly or indirectly, continue to download the IDE and use that, interested developers will continue to work on the IDE, third parties will continue to make new libraries, cores and hardware directed towards the IDE, and life will go on.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 12:37:43 am
content: I'd hate to see Arduino do vast changes like going closed source. One thing I like about Arduino is the vast amount of online documentation. I don't really use Arduinos for projects, I just use Atmega chips directly but still use the Arduino code base. You will find way more results in a web search for "how to  with Arduino" than "AVR". Anything involving bit banging can easily be adapted mind you. But something like how to set a pin etc varies a lot.I really do want to learn to code AVRs directly though with their own C/C++ libraries and GCC without using the Arduino IDE, but it's just hard to find tutorials, data sheets have bits and pieces of sample code, some tutorials do too, but it's the thing of bringing it all together. So I just go the lazy route and use the Arduino libraries for everything.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 12:50:32 am
content: Phil Torrone is going round stirring up trouble for Arduino where-ever he can, friendly blogs, Arduino forum, Arduino developers list, OSHWA list...Interesting... it looks like it is going to be Arduino vs everyone else. I'm no fan of Musto, indeed I was one calling for people to boycott his organisation. At that time, Adafruit told me they were not going to take sides, told me off for trying to provoke "internet outrage", and told me that who they conduct business with is none of my concern (to be fair, that is true). Then something happened, and they changed their mind. They started to side with original Arduino.I'll bet what "happened" is that Musto had the meeting with Adafruit, where Limor Fried realised what a dodgy character Musto was (lying about his degree at MIT). Later when Fried realised that Musto was going to be the guy in charge, and checked with MIT and NYU that his credentials were bogus, she decided that was not acceptable, and he must go.All the stuff about who runs Arduino and the Open Source files is just a red herring, the real goal is to get rid of Musto. Maybe that would be a good thing. The problem is, they are several years too late. And I as discovered with the first Arduino fight, virtually no one cares who runs Arduino. Creating a SJW campaign around that is a no go. Since Arduino own their companies and trademarks, there is absolutely no grounds for anyone to sue Arduino, that is also a non-starter. Certainly, they will get a few blogs and people in the NY maker set to bitch about Arduino, but that's all.Musto is not going to just step down now, the only real option would be to fork off the Arduino project, suppose it could happen. I'm sure Adafruit would he happy to run it. Never underestimate an MIT graduate scorned...Anyway, I can't say I'm really bothered. It is just the corporates fighting over a valuable brand, again. Someone will win, no one will care.Time to get the

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 01:05:07 am
content: Meanwhile theChinese cloners keep on going, completely indifferent to all this drama.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 01:19:02 am
content: Lol, quite.I'm looking forward to reading which side of the fence Hackaday come down on... I'll bet it is on the side of Adafruit. USA vs Italians, no contest really.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 02:34:13 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 14, 2017, 11:00:08 pmI make a world of distinction between merely "don't like" and proven liar. It really comes down to whether one is the writing the checks. Beholden and writing large checks to a proven liar is not a good place to be.==================================================For those who feel Limor is taking this personally, I'm sure she is. It's hard not to. Someone freely claimed a credential for personal gain that she absolutely worked her ass off to earn properly. A degree from MIT is a true achievement. A masters' even more so.For those who seem to feel MIT or similar institutions pass out degrees for a fee, I recommend submitting an application with a check for four years tuition and giving this hypothesis a whirl.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 03:38:41 am
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on June 15, 2017, 02:34:13 amEither way, Adafruit have a financial vested interest in this, as they manufacture official Arduino boards, and no doubt capital tied up in that.But technically that doesn't matter, as they could simply start making non-official boards with zero effort if they didn't want royalty money going to Arduino for *insert reason here*.Officially their only public stated position seems to be that they are concerned with the lack of open source-ness on new projects, and also going back as long as 2-3 years IIRC.If no one has really kicked up a stink in that time period then I guess it can't matter that much to the community?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 04:35:39 am
content: Ok, I think it's pretty clear that Arduino are no longer "open source hardware", at least in the strict OSHW definition legal licence way.I'm looking through their arduino.org website and not only can I find no reference to or mention of OSHW, but looking at their boards, there is not a single OSHW logo on any of them, but they do have "Open Source Electronics platform" on the silk screen.There is no mention of open source on the schematics.There is no mention of any open source licence at all anywhere that I can find.And no licence = no legal re-use, they reserve the right to sue you if you do.I can't remember, did they ever have the OSHW logo on the boards and release stuff under a specific licence?

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 04:39:47 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 15, 2017, 03:38:41 amBoth camps are fixated over hardware, and wrongly in my opinion. The real worry should be the IDE and funding its continued development and evolution. It's the whole point of giving money back to the mother ship in the first place.All parties need to just get off of this proprietary/open source debate nonsense and realize that the IDE is the enabler. Put responsible adults in charge of IDE development, then charge a nominal convenience fee to download the latest version of the IDE and forget about the rest of this.Lying about one's academic credentials is a disqualifies one as a "responsible adult," which is why I would have an issue sending money to Musto at this juncture.I will not dispute Adafruit's commercial interest. It could be good or bad depending on how it is used.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 04:47:05 am
content: Ok, I'm going through old Arduino PCB images and the Arduino.cc website on the web archive and I can find no reference at all of Arduino EVER having used the OSHW logo, or released their products under any formal open source hardware license.Am I wrong?From the EMSL blog post:QuoteI question whether or not Arduino was ever truly OSHW? What are the "roots"?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 04:50:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 15, 2017, 03:38:41 amCORRECTION:Phil Torrone had commented directly on this and I quote:"zero! we never had any "financial vested interest in this" - we helped arduino.cc for a limited time 2 years ago with the goal of them settling, they did. we did not purchase any equipment because of arduino.cc, they owe us no money" and "arduino was not even a significant part of our business, at all."

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 04:53:02 am
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on June 15, 2017, 04:39:47 amYes, the hardware is irrelevant, the software is all that matters.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 05:06:53 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 15, 2017, 04:50:32 amI'd argue Adafruit's financial interest is in that they sell branded hardware and thus fund Arduino. Not vested, but certainly invested.But, we both agree completely on the essential truth that the hardware is irrelevant.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 07:14:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 15, 2017, 04:35:39 amI have never seen them use the OSHW logo. I believe arduino.cc have always used a Creative Commons licensehttps://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/FAQ#toc3Adafruit are quite clear, their goal is to get rid of Musto. They are hoping to do this by stirring up internet outrage to put pressure on Arduino, they have no other leverage.The plan will fail, because as noted, literally no one cares who runs Arduino.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 07:23:14 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 15, 2017, 07:14:10 amAh, got it, thanks.Now , try to find the same thing on Arduino.orgQuoteAgreed.Community take-up on this will be practically zero. I bet this thread becomes the most it's ever talked about.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 07:26:22 am
content: FYI, here is the Foundation Manifesto:http://download.arduino.org/manifesto/Manifesto_Foundation.pdf

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 07:40:02 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 15, 2017, 07:23:14 amarduino.org have always had a weak commitment to Open Source, despite their fine words,which is one reason why I previously tried to start a campaign against them, and Adafruit slapped me down! (This lack of open-ness has been noted as far back as 2013http://hackaday.com/2015/02/24/is-the-arduino-yun-open-hardware/) Adafruit weren't interested in licenses, community involvement or lack of progress then, they were happy to do business with Musto's arduino.org.But now Limor has been "personally affronted", everything has changed! Starting a vendetta campaign does not seem to be a real smart move for an MIT graduate. The only smart thing she has done so far is let her husband Phil do the dirty work, so when it all backfires it doesn't get put on her. I imagine he and friends are poring over Arduino's accounts, tax receipts, Musto's background etc looking for dirt. Expect to see further "revelations" from Phil or people associated with him, aiming to cause trouble for Musto or Arduino.What we have here is an exec of one company trying to remove an exec from another. I've seen personal vendettas before in business, and it gets ugly, but ultimately achieves nothing. It's scorched earth policy, and lacks logic or rationality.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 10:26:24 am
content: So it's Arduino business as usual

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 11:50:27 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 15, 2017, 04:53:02 amAbsolutely, the hardware genie is out of the bag now and the name Arduino has become or is very close to generic, I don't remember speaking to anyone with a Chinese ATmega board that didn't call it an Arduino.There were some rather troubling posts on their site a couple of years ago that hinted at closed source paid for versions of the IDE, they may have vanished but it was reminiscent of the Saleae posts on clone logic analysers and people using their software.Not sure how they'd square taking the IDE closed with the massive contributions made by the community though?

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 12:23:13 pm
content: Phil and Limor talk about it a bit here.https://youtu.be/LtW0y8lXcU4?t=1843

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 12:28:14 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on June 15, 2017, 11:50:27 amOh, if that happened I would be first in line for the pitchforks:)I don't recall the closed source/paid for IDE suggestion, but I don't see how it could happen. It would certainly unite the community against them, who basically care about only two things 1) cheap Arduinos 2) free Arduino IDE.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 12:38:22 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on June 15, 2017, 12:23:13 pmLol, they looked really uncomfortable talking about that. So that is their battlecry? "Where's our free foundation?" "Where's our free design files?" Gimme, gimme, I want.Also, failed to mention the real reasons behind it, that Limor was "personally affronted" by Musto's rank dishonesty, or what the actual goal is, to get rid of Musto.If they said "Musto is a jerk, we want him out" they might get more support. Nearly everyone agrees he is. Actually, if they said "this is a feminist issue", they could get legions of SJW on their side.I guarantee, two things Arduino users won't care about 1) minutiae of Open Source licenses, 2) who runs Arduino (the foundation thing)."everyone is ignoring us" "I made a sticker!" Sad, pathetic, juvenile. These guys have MIT degrees? Not quite true, I said he was an idiot...and a few other things. I am disappointed he did not mention that Aw, bless. But where can we buy Adafruit branded pitchforks?

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 12:43:47 pm
content: I don't think they can really do much else besides passive-aggressiveness. But the whole thing reminds me of  being in a relationship that you don't know has or hasn't ended.

author: igendel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 01:09:36 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 15, 2017, 12:28:14 pmSo true...

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 01:13:04 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on June 15, 2017, 12:43:47 pmYeah, it's going to be tough to fight a war when their policy is :QuoteI think they will need to review their rules of engagement. Musto may not have college degree, but he has been to the University of Life and got a degree in Playing Hardball.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 01:14:22 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 15, 2017, 12:28:14 pmIt was an item on their site around the time of the first real grumblings about misuse of 'arduino' branding, I've only a vague memory as to the wording as I don't particularly care about Arduino Foundation and dislike the IDE rather a lot but I read it as a fairly unambiguous 'threat' to make it a paid for product if they didn't get more people paying them for 'official' products.Made me think of Cartman 'Respect mah authority'

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 01:59:32 pm
content: I finally found reference to releasing using the CC license:https://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/FAQ#toc3Which BTW seems to be the only place it's ever mentioned. It's not on PCB's, schematic, license.txt in downloads etc.Hence making it hard for me to find.But here is the interesting bit, I still haven't found a single reference to any licence anywhere on arduino.org for any product!It's not in their FAQ like it was in arduino.ccThey have also removed the github link from the main page, but it's buried deeper inside. And the only licence that is on github refers to the Aduino code.It really smells like they are doing a runner from licence based open source. I can't see it any other way, it doesn't seem to be just laziness, it seems deliberate.With the combined company (ad hence legal entity?) now I'm not sure of the relation between arduino.cc and arduino.org?Will .cc disappear eventually?Technically the boards now all have arduino.org on them, so there is a chance any license implied on Ardunio.cc may not be valid?I think those involved in this have good reasons to question whether or not Ardunio is possibly becoming closed source hardware. And whilst everyone will just shrug their shoulders at that, what's in store for the software if that's the case?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 02:10:24 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on June 15, 2017, 01:14:22 pmI just can't see any positive future for Arduino on the hardware side of things.The more closed source they make it the fewer companies are going to stock them and the fewer people are going to support it and buy them (maybe just on principle for both).And they can't compete on price.So a slow hardware death spiral either way I suspect.Their last hand left to play would be the software.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 02:14:02 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 15, 2017, 01:59:32 pmI think they'd just price themselves out of their own market, their share would dwindle.The only potentially viable way to progress into revenue from open source would be a paid for premium version, maybe offer some decent IDE functionality, simulation, debugging etc. that the current piece of junk doesn't?

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 02:37:46 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on June 15, 2017, 02:14:02 pmExactly right.The major problem with the IDE is free. Everyone just needs to come to Jesus and admit that what the IDE needs and must be will not happen on a freeware model.

author: igendel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 02:41:51 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on June 15, 2017, 02:14:02 pmActually, there's an ongoing discussion now on the Arduino SW developers forum, started by Banzi a little more than a week ago, about making the Arduino code infrastructure more solid, standardized and advanced. From what I've seen so far it became an argument about the pros and cons of various RTOSs... but the idea itself is interesting. No mentions of cost to users.https://groups.google.com/a/arduino.cc/forum/#!topic/developers/k2fEqQwQKjQ

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 02:42:53 pm
content: I doubt that there's a viable market for a premium Arduino. The most common approach to monetize OSS/OSHW is to provide service to businesses. Are there any companies worth mentioning using Arduinos in their products?

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 03:18:22 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 15, 2017, 02:42:53 pmI doubt it, I think commercial use was specifically prohibited in their licence wasn't it?It may be they progress to a model like Redhat where the product is still, notionally' free but support is the revenue stream.But to do that they'd need take up from industry and Arduino is seen as a hobbyist/maker/hacker product, not an easy image to get rid of and an almost impossible sell into industry I'd think.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 04:06:47 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on June 15, 2017, 01:14:22 pmTo be fair I think the appeal was more along the lines of "C'mon, at leastsomeof you please buy some original Arduino branded products instead of just clones and give us a bit of money to keep the whole thing rolling or we'll have to move to a more closed model just to stay in business." [Not a real quote. Some scenes have been re-created for dramatic purposes.]It's all a question of how you spin it, and as soon as you're into the region where people are putting a spin on things then it gets into "winning/loosing territory" instead of "simply succeeding territory" and perforce someone's going to lose out.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 04:22:50 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on June 15, 2017, 03:18:22 pmI think the common license for all the early Arduino stuff washttps://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/which explicitly permits commercial re-use. That's certainly the license for the Nano schematics and manual, and I can't be arsed to pull from backup, unzip and search similar age IDE source to check what's in there - mea culpa - but if that license was in use in 2008 for the schematics then I'd be surprised if there wasn't an, at least broadly similar, licence on the firmware and IDE.[If anybody noticed the edits there, sorry I seem to be having an arse/elbow discrimination PEBKAC.]

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 06:43:22 pm
content: Guys, the license of the schematics of the boards and the board design files is pretty much a completely irrelevant red herring. It covers onlythose files(i.e. their distribution/reproduction), not the concept of the board itself. For that they would have to have a patent, which is, AFAIK, not the case.So I can take an Uno/Nano/whatever, reverse engineer the board, measure the dimensions (or even use the original design files!) and start producing my own copies and nobody could do squat if I don't call them "Arduino" - because that they have trademarked (and are enforcing). That is what makes all those clones legal, not some Creative Commons or whatever logo plastered on the genuine boards.The Arduino IDE is under GPL (https://github.com/arduino/Arduino/blob/master/license.txt), so if someone tried to close it, they can't. If Arduino itself tried to relicense it (assuming they get the OK of all copyright holders), then all that would happen is someone taking the last GPL version and forking it, potentially driving the "official" version into irrelevance. There is a recent history of that too (the legal spat between the US and Italian Arduinos).

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2017, 12:26:26 pm
content: People have been speculating about Arduino's business model, and that they will probably have to go closed source, for about 10 years. Apart from some unfounded hearsay, and a few missing design files which virtually no-one cares about, there is no indication that Arduino are planning any such move. It is remarkable that they have stayed open, and not sold out like Makerbot, even with all the Arduino clones, but a few Open Source companies are managing to do it. Arduino have revenue apart from hardware sales, so I think they manage to keep afloat.I'll wait until there is some actual evidence that Arduino are going closed source, before bothering to worry about that...Adafruit's goal is to put pressure on Arduino and somehow force out Federico Musto, because they have taken a dislike to Musto. Bitching about missing design files, and some vague promised Foundation, that no one cares about, are not going to achieve that. So I guess Adafruit will be bitching about Arduino for a long time!

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2017, 08:21:45 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 16, 2017, 12:26:26 pmI didn't know you were an appointed spokesman of Adafruit. All this is only your speculation based on one *reposted* (i.e. NOT written by Adafruit staffers) article from Make. Are you trying to stir up a storm in a teacup?

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2017, 10:05:12 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 14, 2017, 07:38:49 pmAt least in Germany it is quite serious. For example,the German defense minister resigned, because it was discovered that he copied and pasted lots of text for his PhD thesis without marking it as citations. And I think this was right. How can you be sure that such a person doesn't lie about other things as well?

author: igendel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2017, 10:22:27 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 16, 2017, 12:26:26 pmWhen the Arduino cc/org fight broke out, the general opinion seemed to be that Musto was the bad guy, no? Even without the matter of fake credentials, who would want the bad guy to be in charge of anything now?

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2017, 10:57:57 am
content: Quote from: janoc on June 16, 2017, 08:21:45 pmAdafruit created the "#FreeArduino" campaign, they have made numerous references to it.https://twitter.com/search?q=%23FreeArduinoEvery cause finds "useful idiots" to support them, and Adafruit are finding a few.So far, they have not openly put their name to calls for Musto to go, maintaining plausible deniability, but are reposted/retweeting everyone else who calls for that.QuoteThe quote from Wired seems genuine :https://www.wired.com/2017/04/arduinos-new-ceo-federico-musto-may-fabricated-academic-record/QuoteTorrone and Fried are principals at Adafruit. The #FreeArduino campaign was create by them. Torrone created the #FreeArduino logo (sourcehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtW0y8lXcU4&feature=youtu.be&t=33m52s)It's Adafruit that are trying to stir up a storm, but I am not falling for their BS! Nor are most others, it seems.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2017, 11:08:24 am
content: Quote from: igendel on June 16, 2017, 10:22:27 pmIt's a good question. Unfortunately, a condition of the settlement between Arduino vs Arduino was that Musto has equal share of the new Arduino organisation. So if you want to get rid of Musto, you need to restart the Arduino vs Arduino war. There are a few people who don't like Arduino or Banzi or Musto, so I guess those are the people who would be happy to see a new Arduino fight.Only problem, without a shareholding or other interest, all people outside Arduino can do is bitch. I learnt from the first Arduino vs Arduino, although there is on paper an "Arduino community", there are very few people actually willing to put any effort in to it, and even less willing to put money where their mouth is. For example, who would pay money to a foundation that maintains the Arduino IDE, if they are not even willing to donate money to Arduino to maintain it?I've bought a few genuine Arduinos, I've contributed to Arduino development, but I've never donated money to them.That are a lot of shit people in business. At the end of the day, if you don't like a company or its staff, don't do business with it. Simple as that. No one is forced to use Arduino.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2017, 11:30:02 am
content: Quote from: FrankBuss on June 16, 2017, 10:05:12 pmThat's different for a number of reasons. Arduino are not in Germany... A defense minister clearly has public responsibility. Directors of companies have responsibility to their shareholders, they don't have any obligation to the general public, although can be forced to step down if there is bad publicity for the company.How can we be sure that anyone is not lying at any time, and has just never been caught out? It's quite to stretch to ask someone to step down because they "might" be lying about something, which we don't know. We can only address the lies as the occur. Musto has been caught lying about his degrees, and been forced to retract. If we find he is lying about something else, we can challenge him on that.The only thing that could positively be done, is to fork the Arduino projects (hardware and software). But that would take money and effort, and bitching is free!

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2017, 12:52:35 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 17, 2017, 11:30:02 amPast performance is indicative of future behavior - particularly when the bad actor is effectively remorseless. I would not want to be in a high-dollar-amount, commercial relationship with such an individual. I'm sure Adafruit feels the same.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2017, 01:01:00 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 17, 2017, 11:30:02 amThis would require a policy reversal by the maker community, whose mantra is "all software must be free." The effort to save the Arduino IDE will not be free and it's time for the community to come to terms with this.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2017, 12:59:13 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on June 18, 2017, 01:01:00 amHow did you arrive to this "all software must be free" meme? Especially when linked to the "maker" community, which rarely cares about software at all, with proprietary tools being widely used? Could you point to some source? Or is it only your personal view?Are you conflating "makers" and the free software people (like GNU/FSF around Stallman, by chance? Those two groups have pretty much zero overlap in practice. And even Stallman speaks about "free" as in "freedom", not as in "beer", recognizing that labor isn't a free resource.Moreover, Arduino certainly is free as in freedom already, considering it is GPL licensed. Any vendor or organization is free to pick it up and keep developing it farther, should the Arduino folks commit a corporate sepuku thanks to their infighting.Whether that will be Sparkfun, Adafruit or someone else, even a group of volunteers, it doesn't matter. Maintaining that IDE is neither rocket science nor a huge amount of work. Much larger and more complex projects are volunteer run and maintained - and work just fine.Come on, guys. I know that several of you don't hold Arduino and the "makers" in high regard for many reasons, but could we, please, stop piling up unsubstantiated bullshit like this here?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2017, 01:19:40 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 16, 2017, 12:26:26 pmIf you just looked at Arduino.org then you wouldn't think it's fully open hardware. Apart form throwing around the words "open source", there is zero mention of any license under which they are "open sourcing" their hardware like they used to do using Creative Commons.The schematics are called "reference designs" and they are providing at least schematics, so it's almost certainly still legally possible to take any current new Arduino design and replicate it commercially. But it seemssomethinghas changed, as the lack of licenses and PCB source files for every product on Arduino.org can be nothing but deliberate.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2017, 01:28:29 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 17, 2017, 11:30:02 amThe "forking" of the Arduino hardware has already been effectively done by all the cloners. Clones and variants would have to outnumber genuine Ardunino sales by at least 10:1, more likely 100:1.The IDE has AFAIK support for anyone to write their own plugin for their own variant board, so that nail is already in the genuine Arduino hardware coffin.This is why it doesn't really matter if they go closed source hardware or not, no one cares, they are almost all using the clones and new variants anyway.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2017, 02:02:24 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 18, 2017, 01:28:29 pmIndeed. The IDE is an editor and a terminal and a bit of UI.You can easily substitute at least:- headers defining the various constants how you want them, mappings from Arduino pin numbers to your MCUs pin numbers etc.- a compiler/assembler/linker for whatever instruction set you want.- your own program to download/flash the board, using whatever interface, protocol etc you wantNo problem to design your own ISA, implement your own soft CPU on an FPGA board, and make it work with the standard Arduino IDE and source libraries. Just give the end user a single URL to enter into the arduino IDE preferences, restart the IDE, and tell them to choose board type, interface, and programmer from the newly-updated menus.Assuming you're capable of designing an ISA, CPU, making a gcc or llvm port for it etc.Arduino compatibility is not the difficult part.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2017, 03:20:59 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on June 18, 2017, 12:59:13 pmEagle and Saleae Logic have been through similar debacles recently as well. And your statement that "makers rarely care(s) about software" is absolutely correct and is the root of the problem. The 70's are long gone and the "do it in software or hardware" debate has gone the way of bell bottoms and leisure suits.Today, we all need both. Software matters and writing good software is hard enough and expensive enough that we all should care about it.Personally, I think that the concept of the Arduino IDE is absolutely brilliant for all the obvious reasons. It's a pity that the IDE has largely been left stagnant and that no attempt has been made to implement even a rudimentary debugger (aside from user serial statements).The problem with Arduino is that, as seems to be with most successful, free software, there is an initial spate of highly productive development that then stagnates as the initial development funds dwindle and volunteer developers inevitably drift away. The piece of the Arduino platform that makes it all worth doing has no ongoing revenue associated with it to continue its rightfully-deserved development.We know the IDE can be forked, but forking without funding is a pointless exercise. There will be no meaningful change until it is agreed by all that the software has true monetary value and is worth paying for.I would even argue that the Arduino IDE could become an industry-standard for low-end micro controller development. It may even be that already. I use it in my projects for the simple reason that it is readily accessible to others. (Although the poorness of the IDE lack of a debugger is causing me enough grief to really rethink this)

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2017, 05:55:42 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on June 18, 2017, 03:20:59 pmThe problem is probably that the ATMEGA328 in the original Arduinos doesn't support any kind of debugging interface at all if you're communicating via UART and programming using the bootloader. You have to switch the chip into another mode in which you need an external high voltage programmer.Plenty of other chips in Arduinos these days support JTAG for example via the same USB link as the UART. But no opne has added that to the IDE. Yet. Wouldn't take a lot.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 02:25:33 pm
content: HAD has published a more balanced article on this subject, including comments from the Arduino heads (Banzi & Musto)http://hackaday.com/2017/06/19/the-arduino-foundation-whats-up/It just shows how much are people speculating and jumping the gun, throwing wild accusations left and right - and the Foundation doesn't even legally exist yet.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 03:00:02 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on June 18, 2017, 03:20:59 pmOf course software matters. That's not the point.My point was that the "makers" rarely care whether the software if paid, free (as in beer) or free (as in freedom). They will use whatever they can get their hands on and it does the job. Many are happy to pay for the software too if the price is reasonable and they get good value for it - e.g. the Mach CNC software or the Simplify3D commercial slicer for 3D printing. The recent Eagle and Saleae debacles only show that most people aren't stupid and won't throw money out of the window when it goes out of their own pocket, that's all.Quote from: LabSpokane on June 18, 2017, 03:20:59 pmAFAIK I have heard some musing about adding that but the main problem is that debugging on AVR requires proprietary tools and the debugging protocols are not documented by Atmel, so you must use their dongles/programmers. Also the IDE is multiplatform but Atmel doesn't support anything but Windows with their tooling. There are some OSS tools for the debugging (avrice), but it is not really for beginners and the tools don't really support everything. If Arduino switched to ARM, then it would be different, but the current ARM-based Arduino boards are not exactly taking over the world - expensive & difficult to develop for.Quote from: LabSpokane on June 18, 2017, 03:20:59 pmI don't think this is the main issue. The IDE is a fork of the Processing IDE that is being actively developed. And there is also some clear progress visible in the IDE - e.g. the library manager. I think the issue is more that it is simply good enough for a beginner. If you need something more advanced, like debugger support, then you can probably handle Atmel Studio already and debug your Arduino code there. They actually provide tutorial for that. I don't think that competing with Visual Studio/Eclipse has ever been the objective of the Arduino/Processing IDE. It has always been to keep things as simple as possible to enable otherwisenon technicalusers to work with it.Quote from: LabSpokane on June 18, 2017, 03:20:59 pmThen I wonder how do projects like GCC, Linux kernel, Wordpress, Mozilla and many others survive. Paying for software is not the only model that can be viable. And the Arduino IDE is far from the complexity of any of these projects, so it would be much easier to handle as e.g. a non-profit, with funding coming from both Arduino the company and external sources - donors, companies profiting from the ecosystem (Sparkfun, Adafruit, etc.). BTW, that's exactly what the Arduino Foundation is meant for.The value of the project could well be in the installed base, community support and perhaps even driving up sales. Ok, that last one is a long shot in the case of Arduino, but it is exactly the reason why almost all vendors give away development tools today. If Arduino LLC kept developing the IDE, they have certainly not been doing it for charity, they are a for profit company.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 07:23:55 pm
content: janoc,If Arduino is to have a future, AVR surely isn't it.Larger projects like you mentioned seem to have the benefit of a very wide audience as well as corporate support on some level.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 08:11:32 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on June 19, 2017, 02:25:33 pmGood article. Thanks for posting. My take: Too many ego's and hurt feelings. And too much speculation. Hopefully the Foundation will succeed and all the butt-hurts forgotten - which is what the article implies Banzi and Musto are trying to do. I can see Limor's point but IMHO she needs to move on. It's not helping anyone and if she pursues it she may risk damaging her business. If, after a while, the Foundation fails to materialize or forms and fails - then there will be time to fork.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 09:59:18 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on June 19, 2017, 08:11:32 pmIf there is one thing we learned about Arduino over the years, they are pretty slow to get things done. That shouldn't be a surprise, they are a pretty small organisation (revenue maybe $1 million or so?). They are not like Intel etc who can throw 10 engineers at any project they care to.I noticed that Arduino have appointed Hernando Barragán to a senior position. If anyone has cause to have a beef with Arduino, it is him. It's funny that he, Banzi, Gianluca Martino and Musto have agreed to bury the hatchet and move forward, despite several years of a legal struggle, but Limor Fried and Adafruit have decided that they can't work with Musto, even though the Arduino situation doesn't seem to have any impact on Adafruit's products or business. Adafruit seem to be mostly selling their own Arduino clones and variants on the theme. Indeed, Adafruit seemed happy to do business with arduino.org when it was being run by Musto, but now that Limor Fried has been "personally affronted" everything has changed.It seems clear that are Arduino are committed to the principle of Open Source, even if some of the practice is deficient. Adafruit are holding their feet to the fire, and that may lead to a better practice by Arduino. Certainly there have been grumbles over the years about missing design files from Arduino. I don't see how achieving "full compliance" is going to get rid of Musto though, it seems like a weak attempt to call a bluff that has not been made. Adafruit are going to have to get used to working with Musto, however much they dislike him.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 10:08:59 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 18, 2017, 01:19:40 pmI thought that your solution to Open Source was that publishers can choose whatever parts of the project they wish to make open. Are you now saying that is wrong, and that to be Open Source requires publishers to publish everything?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 10:34:14 am
content: http://hackaday.com/2017/06/19/the-arduino-foundation-whats-up/QuoteNo real surprise that Arduino AG (i.e. arduino.org) aren't keen to release their hardware files.And also no surprise that they are effectively saying that hardware plays no part in the new foundation, and nor should it, the software is everything.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 11:25:12 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 20, 2017, 10:08:59 amNo, not at all, I fully support their right to release whatever they want to release, and I'd be happy if they used my letter based logo system.What I'm saying is that it'sinteresting, very interesting from a community perspective that they seem to be moving away from a license based open system.It could also cause a lot of confusion in the community who have always understood that Arduino schematics and PCB's were always released under CC-BY-SA, and now it seems, well, nothing. That could, in the worst case, potentially create legal issues for people using the newer boards not covered under any license. Especially the likes of large companies who have legal departments and are sticklers for rules and licences.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 12:55:15 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 20, 2017, 11:25:12 amYeah, I think you are right. I've just been looking at the arduino.org website, and can't find a license statement anywhere. For example,http://www.arduino.org/products/boards/arduino-m0no indication whatever (not a new board either). Nothing elsewhere on the site I could find that gives any legal hint.If arduino.org have a plan to move away from Open Source, and they drag their feet on this, they are about to get found out! Then I think there might be some serious steps to forking Arduino (but without calling it Arduino). I think it is probably more a case of laziness, and not going out of the way to help cloners. One of their web pages says "Eagle design files", but I don't think they use Eagle, at least not for that particular board. I expect they have some intern updating the web site, but they don't really understand about CAD files. I imagine that Arduino will merge their sites into one at some point.I didn't realise that Phil Torrone used to work for Hackaday, before working at MAKE, then Adafruit. It seems like quite a small maker community over there.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 03:23:19 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 20, 2017, 12:55:15 pmI think the word you are looking for isincestuousor possiblyclique.

author: darrellg
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 06:02:48 pm
content: Musto is out. Looks like they got what they wanted.https://blog.arduino.cc/2017/07/28/a-new-era-for-arduino-begins-today/

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 06:23:03 pm
content: It reads like the other 3 co-founders are just grunt labor. How come they brought in an outsider?I guess it doesn't matter.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 07:03:42 pm
content: Problem I see with Open Source is there's no money for the parent to stay alive.Arduino knock-offs don't contribute a penny to the foundation.What is their revenue model?Musto's fake education creds, he's just a parasite that was trying to make a profitable non-open source maneuver...

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 07:09:48 pm
content: Somehow i managed to survive without Arduino. So my take is, if the whole Arduino thing will go to hell - the world won't even notice.

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 03:59:15 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on July 28, 2017, 07:09:48 pmThe Arduino itself will not vanish. Even if the company goes to hell, there will be still Chinese manufacturers for things like the $2 Arduino Nano boards, which I think are really useful, and the IDE will be downloadable from somewhere.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 08:35:52 pm
content: What is "the company" driving the Arduino development these days, anyway? I admit that I have long since lost track. Arduino Foundation, Arduino AG, Arduino LLC, arduino.org, arduino.cc, Genuino...It seems that a great open source project has fallen victim to too many competing egos and commercial interests. I used to avoid the Chinese knock-off boards, because I wanted to support the creators of the Arduino, but not any longer. There is no-one left in the Arduino "community" whom I can identify with and feel good about supporting.