Need Advice Please. Lab  Setup - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Simon_RL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2020, 03:29:22 pm
content: Hi All,I have AU$800 burning a hole in my pocket and I am trying to decided whether to get a Hantek HDG6202B AWG/FG or Quality Bench Top Multimeter. AlterI already have a Hanteck DSO4204C which has a built-in AWG, however my multimeter is a $30 FleaBay special. Alternatively should I spread my budget out and look at a cheaper AWG/FG and get a better multimeter?My main area of interest in electronics is digital control systems and am currently learning Arduino. As my knowledge of both digital control and electronics generally increases I want to move to Atmel and/or similar control systems. My interest in this area is due to my knowledge and experience IT.All suggestions and advice welcomed and greatly appreciated.

author: boshepard69
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 08, 2020, 05:32:29 am
content: As far as the brand, I really don't know. I have been using 60Mhz for around 15 years for troubleshooting and repairing various things for our IT department and I have never needed more. I'm sure there are many people and situations where you would need it, but it all depends on what you are going to do with it.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 08, 2020, 07:18:07 am
content: What are you missing? Were you already in a situation where a better wavegen or multimeter could have saved you time? Which of them was lacking?

author: Simon_RL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2020, 01:08:05 am
content: Thanks for the replies.I did what I should have done in the first place and did some research. I founds Dave's video on setting up an electronics lab and there were some really good tips in there. Also ready the stickies on multimeters and they are a great resource for beginners and the more experienced.Just want to say thanks to all and especially Dave for making EEVblog Electronics Community Forum such a great resource for all

author: PTR_1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2020, 11:26:52 am
content: Personally I use a scope a lot more than a waveform generator and I use a multi meter a lot more than I use my scope.If you’re doing lots of digital stuff that’s small, don’t ignore some of the pc based Digilentanalog discovery.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2020, 11:33:31 am
content: I'm not sure that spending $800+ on a bench multimeter is going to add much value to you with your current interests.If you need a good bench meter, you'll know it.I'd be spending that money on something else.

author: Simon_RL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2020, 12:33:29 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 12, 2020, 11:33:31 amThanks Dave, after doing a lot more research. Which is what I should have done before posting. After reading the sticky threads under test equipment I have settled on a UNI-T UT61E Digital Multimeter. I will sit on the rest of the money and buy stuff as I actually need it.I have also accepted I have a case of GASand need to just to concentrate on learning.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2020, 09:50:03 pm
content: Test equipment, for learning, is a difficult proposition. I have 2 bench meters, I don't use either one very often. I have a Fluke 189, one of Dave's Brymen BM235s, and one of Dave's 121GWs and a couple of other reasonably high end meters. So, when I want to measure something, which do I choose? None of the above! I reach for the cheapest of the lot, an Aneng 8008. I like that little meter and I find it more than adequate for my electronics projects. No, I wouldn't use it on a 480V switchboard but I don't do that stuff any more.Be careful you aren't chasing the big kids off a cliff when it comes to spending money on equipment.I bought the Rigol DS1054Z a couple of years ago just to give my 350 MHz Tektronix 485 a break and I bought a Siglent SDG2082 AWG just because I could. I also bought a Rigol DP832 because I could even though I have gotten along with wall warts and fixed voltage supplies for decades. Because I could, not necessarily because I needed the stuff.So, given all that stuff, what do I reach for when I want to demonstrate some electronic thing to my grandson? Maybe demonstrate the forced response of an RC circuit? A Bode' Plot perhaps? Well, none of the above! My favorite tool for breadboarding educational projects is my Analog Discovery 2. There's just something about a 27" display for a scope! Seriously, I recommend this to everybody who wants to create a learning environment at a reasonable cost. It does everything! Yes, it's pricey but so is everything else. It does far more and costs somewhat less than my Rigol scope but it includes a dual channel AWG, a dual voltage power supply (current output very limited but better when used with a wall wart) and a bunch of digital stuff including a logic analyzer and protocol debugger. It's pretty amazing!It's easy to spend a lot of money on test equipment. I suspect it is better to wait for a legitimate need before spending on much of anything. And then see how you can do without it a little bit longer. Make that money squeal before you part with it.In any event, you probably need 3 DMMs, they don't all need to be high dollar. Think of the common emitter transistor circuit. You would want to measure base current, collector current and Vce. Maybe toss in Vbe... It's an experiment, you don't need 5-1/2 digit meters.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2020, 10:07:32 pm
content: Since you already have an oscilloscope with a generator, it doesn't makes much sense to buy yet another generator. I won't waste money for a much precise desktop DMM, unless you need badly those extra decimals, or else it will just take space on your desk. Same advice about a better than $30 DMM: It doesn't worth buying an expensive one unless you are an electrician or plan to do a lot of work with mains voltage, working on roofs (so you need a shockproof handheld DMM) or working outdoors (so you'll need an IP64 DMM that can withstand rain) and so on. For Arduino things and other low level voltage projects (by low level I mean less than mains voltage), an expensive DMM doesn't add any real value to the lab.Another detail, Atmel is the company that used to produce the microcontrollers used in Arduino UNO and most of the other Arduino boards are also made with microcontroller produced by the former Atmel (Atmel company was bought by Microchip a few years ago). My point is saying you want to move from Arduino to Atmel sounds strange. I suspect you want to say you plan to move to ARM chips. There are some Arduino boards with ARM microcontrollers, e.g. Arduino DUE is an Arduino board based on an ARM core microcontroller produced by Atmel, too (now Microchip).Nevermind the name Arduino/Atmel hair splitting, better buy some new type of instrument you don't have yet, for example a stereo optical microscope (a simulfocal trinocular would be even better), or a power supply.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2020, 04:53:35 am
content: A lot of excellent advice. Keep the money in the bank until you hit a problem you can't solve with what you have. Then figure out what the cheapest solution is and buy that. You will get far more satisfaction from spending the money to buy something you actually need than you will from buying a trophy which sits on the shelf.If you're desperate for a new toy, consider getting a Cypress CY7C88013A board from ebay and setting it up for logic analysis using sigrok. It's cheap; you'll learn useful stuff and it will be helpful working with Arduinos. If that's not enough to satisfy your lust, get a DMMCheck Plus from dmmcheckplus.com and a 40 ps rise time pulser from leobodnar.com. There are lengthy discussions of both on this forum. That will set you up to test your bench gear.I have 2x HP 3478A, 2x 34401A and a 3457A/44992A. I also have probably 2 dozen $5 DMMs. I'm not sure about the number because I have them all over the place. Harbor Freight gave them away for quite awhile free with any purchase. So despite already having over a dozen I got more. I've got an entire tub of them which doesn't count all the ones I've given away. 99% of the time I use one of the HF DMMs. I don't need a 3478A to test a battery or wall wart. Or 120 or 240 V mains.I checked all the HF freebie DMMs against an LM399 reference and all the units were well within spec and every bit as good as a $$$ 1970's Fluke DMM. There's more here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/habor-freight-giveaway-dmm-test/After that post I had the opportunity to check my 34401A against the USA Cal Club: Round 2 FX & PX references and verified that it was in spec on the 10 V range.You will learn more, faster if you have very little T&M kit than you will with a lot. With very little you will be forced to think more carefully about the problem and how to make the needed measurements. The more you know, the less you need.FWIW $800 will buy a complete basic electronics lab up well past 100 MHz. A nanoVNA is great for someone playing with RF, but not helpful to someone who is not. If you decide to play with some of the ESP RF boards you'll want one.Have fun!Reg

author: Simon_RL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2020, 03:17:27 am
content: Hi All,Thanks all for the great advice. I now know what I need and don't need for now and also been given a clear direction for my learning. I very much appreciation the help and advice, starting out in electronics is quite daunting and knowing where to start is quite difficult, especially we T&M kit.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2020, 06:39:01 am
content: Hantek AWG Function generator? Hell noI think i had bought a Hantek HDG2032B because the specs seamed really nice for the low price. The thing looks decently well made and everything. But oh god the software on that thing. It was dead on arrival as it would boot and everything but not give any signal. Talked to the seller who couldn't figure it out, eventually got in contact with someone at Hantek that determined after a bit of troubleshooting that its dead and needs to be sent back for service until i eventually convinced him to give me new firmware files and flashing all of those fixed it and got it working. Was pretty happy with it, but then i found some combinations of settings that cause it to crash and reboot, if you selected to save settings it will restore them and crash again getting stuck in an infinite reboot look until you reset it to the recovery firmware. Then later on i found some setting combinations actually give the wrong output. like asking for 1Khz and getting 387Hz. New firmwares came out that fixed one thing but broke another etc.. Eventually i had enough and sold it to a unsuspecting coworker and went and bought a old Tektronix AWG function gen and never looked back.Expensive multi meters don't help that much. But having a good ~100USD handheld multimeter is nice (The EEVblog brand multimeters Dave is selling are pretty nice too). An extra multimeter never hurtsBut you usually want to buy things that you don't yet have. Like perhaps a decent USB logic analyzer if you do a lot of MCU development, maybe a nice bench PSU, Electronic load.Its also not always the big equipment that has value. Things like good probes, cables, crocodile clips, grabbers, soldering aids etc can help a lot too.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2020, 07:19:12 am
content: The thing you haven't mentioned is Power Supplies or lack of? A couple of channels of Linear 0-15 or better 0-30V and a few Amps would be well worth it now and into the future. Secondhand ones do come up occasionally in Oz secondhand for a decent price but they are rare at really good prices or silvia was a contributing member here and I have brought a couple of things from himhttps://www.ebay.com.au/usr/silvia99gtEither that or take a bit more of a punt and import your own. This is one thing not to cheap out on or go Switch Mode if possible.Also a decent soldering iron if you are wanting to play with SMD bits.And finally now you have one semi decent Meter you need to buy a second one too

author: Simon_RL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2020, 02:00:38 pm
content: Quote from: beanflying on January 15, 2020, 07:19:12 amThanks Beanfling, I have an RD6006 which is great for powering Arduino board and really basic stuff, but with all I am learning I have realised a good clean DC power source is very important. I have been eyeing off the Rigol DP832, I have watch Dave's videos and about it and I am pretty much sold. I will have some more money from the sale of my mono astronomy camera plus related gear soon (if anyone is into Astrophotography they will know how time consuming Mono is, so I have switched to OSC), so that will easily fund the DP832.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2020, 03:45:12 pm
content: Quote from: Simon_RL on January 15, 2020, 03:17:27 amOne closing comment:Have Fun!Reg

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2020, 05:12:21 pm
content: I have the DP832 and it's a really nice power supply. There are two overcurrent settings per channel - the first limits the current from the supply and the other is a trip which shuts down the supply should the current exceed the threshold (higher than the running overcurrent limit). It's probably worth reading through the manual.When you bring up a new project, estimate how much current the device will need and set the limits accordingly. This will prevent the magic smoke from escaping. I used this feature when I brought up a Z80 project. I had an address conflict which resulted in two devices shorting each other on the bus. I had set the current limits quite low and nothing was damaged. But I knew right away when the output voltage dropped to zero that something was wrong. And that's why I bought a capable power supply.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2020, 09:19:07 pm
content: Yep i have a Rigol DP832 at home and we got some at work.Very nice PSU for the money. Does have some weird things like that circular number pad and a few odds and ends but you get used to it. You can hack it and unlock all options using a keygen. Tho the fans are kinda loud so i swapped mine out for quieter ones.But its still not my only PSU. I still keep some old analog twiddly knob ones for when i just need a quick 12V or something. My favorite ones for that are the Agilent E3610A with a little mod to give it 25Hz display update speed.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2020, 09:56:12 pm
content: Quote from: Simon_RL on January 15, 2020, 02:00:38 pmRigol DP832 is an OK power supply, but for Arduino and such, a DP832 will make absolutely no difference from the RD6006 you already have. You will still need good filtering on the PCB or on the devboard. The importance of clean power is about having filtering capacitors on the PCB, right near each integrated circuit if possible, and not too much about the power supply itself.My advice will be to buy something that you don't have at all, so it can open you new possibilities, or help you do new things.For now it doesn't look to me like you need better instruments. You seem to already have a very good setup for learning in the areas you mentioned at the beginning.Go ahead, do as many projects as you can with what you have. At some point you will notice you can not do something because of the instrument. That is the moment when you need to buy one with better performance, only after you tried with what you already have, and you cannot because the instruments you already have lack in performance or in features.Is there some project you want to try, but you can not because the instruments you have are not good enough?- If no, then don't buy some random instrument just because it has more performance than the one you already have. It will always be out there something that seems better or shinier.- If yes, let's see what tool will help.What would be that project you can not make because the instruments you have are not good enough?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2020, 12:52:35 am
content: As I said above, I have the DP832 but, more often than not, I power things with a wall-wart. Or USB...For decades, I got along with fixed voltage supplies or wall-warts. I just bought the DP832 because I could, not because I had to have it. I will admit that current limiting is a terrific feature but, again, I got along without it for decades.It's better to buy when you have an absolute requirement that you simply can't meet any other way,

author: Simon_RL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2020, 01:44:47 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on January 16, 2020, 12:52:35 amrstofer I totally get what you are saying, basically the KISS approach the best way to learn electronics. It teaches you to be resourceful and find your own solutions. Which is great advice and I am definitely taking it onboard.

author: Prehistoricman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2020, 03:12:48 am
content: Being resourceful is great and all, but having the right equipment when you need it is truly great.When I feel able to, I'm going to upgrade from an analog scope to a digital one, probably 4-channel. Not because I need it, but because I'm tried of taking pictures of the scope to use as trace storageAs someone who's had a variable power supply from the beginning, using wall warts would piss me off! I knew a guy who didn't get a bench PSU for years and just used batteriesbut he did well with what he had.

author: Simon_RL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2020, 05:48:14 am
content: Quote from: Prehistoricman on January 16, 2020, 03:12:48 amPrehistoricman thanks for the feedback. My concerns are that I will hit brick walls when doing projects and I have figured just get the gear while I have the money (before my wife spends it)., but seriously one of my concerns is that I find I am missing something and find my project gets held up while I wait for something to arrive from overseas.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2020, 06:28:23 am
content: You don't really need a lab full of fancy test gear to do projects. Once you have a multimeter, oscilloscope and a decent soldering iron you are pretty much set for electronics. All the other gear tends to be rarely used and a lot of times the job can be done without it just fine(but might take longer).The way i ended up with a pile of test gear in my lab is collecting old used equipment from places like ebay. Quite a few times the equipment i bought was in an unknown state or known to be broken. So it became a bit of a hobby to repair all this broken test gear since it feels rewarding at the end to have another new piece of gear in the lab after a successful repair. The old 10 to 40 year old gear might not have worlds best specs anymore but is not all that far behind modern stuff.Some of the gear i have just because i found a good bargain and looked useful, not because i have an immediate use planned for it. That's how i end up with a 22GHz spectrum analyzer or 300A PSU or a Electrometer that measures down to femtoamps. The use for them might be very rare but they ware cheep and i think they are really cool (And eventually i do find a good use for them, but i often don't at time of purchase)Just because you see some people having a huge wall of test gear on Youtube or forum theads (like thishttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/whats-your-work-benchlab-look-like-post-some-pictures-of-your-lab/4025/) doesn't mean you need it to do electronics. Notice how almost everyone with a large collection of test gear have mostly just old equipment and very little in the way of brand new stuff, they are all used test gear collectors. The piles of test gear still cost quite a bit of money when summed together, but it is a fraction of the cost of brand new equipment (Especially if non Chinese).Also where you get to learn the most about electronics is projects that don't involve a microcontroller. The world of analog is a lot more complicated and has a whole range of neat tricks to do impressive things with few components.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2020, 05:37:19 pm
content: The majority of my electronics projects were done in grad school with a 5 MHz, recurrent sweep, single channel Heathkit IO-18, a 50K/V VOM and a DMM from Radio Shack and a soldering iron. Everything else was bits I put together, op amp square wave generator, sub 10 ns single shot pulser made from a single 7400, 120 dB gain DC audio amp, etc.Lots of test gear saves time, but you don't learn as much.Before I launched into my recent TEA binge I was trying to fix my HP 8601A sweeper, but had no way to measure capacitor ESR. I spent a month or two essentially reinventing the Arduino based LCR meter and transistor tester before quitting work on it and giving myself permission to buy an ESR meter. That diversion into designing one has served me very well as it really forced me to think very closely to the behavior of capacitors, inductors and resisters in series. I was also working on a crystal test set based on Chris Trask's design with the intent of building an MCU based unit that would perform the tests automatically.Have fun!Reg

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2020, 07:06:21 pm
content: Most of my projects are based on development boards, MCUs or FPGAs. Sometimes these can be powered by USB but other times a little more power is required. In that case there will be a power jack and I can use a 5V 2.5A wall-wart that costs $13https://store.digilentinc.com/search.php?Search=&search_query=power+supplyLook at those Power BRICS, they're kind of a neat solution to getting various voltages from a USB cable. That cable doesn't have to plug into your computer, it is better to provide power through a powered hub.I'm not saying a lab supply isn't handy, it is. But it would be fairly far down my list of 'gotta haves'. In fact, it was darn near the bottom!I bought a +-15V supply from Jameco for use with my op amp experiments.https://www.jameco.com/z/PD-2515-MEAN-WELL-Power-Supply-Dual-Output-Open-Frame-15V-1A-Negative-15V-1A-24W_2100857.htmlThese cute little power supplies fit right on the end of a briadboard and provide both 3.3V and 5V as desired to either set of rails. So, you can have 3.3V on one red rail, 5V on the other red rail and the blue rails are tied together as ground. Input power can be from USB (I would use a powered hub) or 9V wall wart (6 to 12V is acceptable). Pretty neathttps://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/bud-industries/BBP-32701/377-2647-ND/8602382There are a lot of ways to provide power. None of which diminish in any way the utility of the DP832. It's a great supply!Everybody wants 0-30V 3A but I always wonder why? What could they possibly be building that would create 90W of heat and perhaps 195W if the entire supply is loaded. In the age of CMOS, projects don't take much power. Not that it isn't nice to future proof everything but, really, power needs are going down rapidly,Things that do take 90W and up usually have a dedicated supply.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2020, 07:56:14 pm
content: Its not about getting both 30V and 3A at the same time.Its about having enough range to cover everything you might come across. Why 30V 3A is so common is a debate in its own right (There is a thread about it somewhere) but it is indeed a pretty good range for general electronics work. It lets you reach 24V with some adjustment headroom around it and that's about the highest voltage you commonly find in electronics (Tho 48V is also common in telco) so that you can often sweep the entire operating voltage range of a device (Test both min and max input voltage). Its also common for LCD backlights to run LED strings from 10 to 30V.Those 3A is a bit arbitrary but is indeed enough to cover the power consumption of most devices, for example USB devices commonly charge at up to 2A. In general things with a LCD screen and fast CPU will consume somewhere in that range when running. Those 3A is also a good fit for charging batteries since that is 1C charge rate for a 3000mAh battery (This is a common capacity for small bateries)So in general 30V 3A is a PSU that you will very rarely have you saying "I wish this PSU had more oomph". Occasionally i have certainly had the need for more, such as 100V or 300A. While a bench PSU is not a must have thing, it certainly is a welcome one due to how cheap they are and how often you end up using one.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2020, 10:19:14 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on January 16, 2020, 07:56:14 pmBut is it worth $473 right now versus some wall warts (cell charging wall warts are so abundant that the EU is considering banning them for sale with new cellphones) or would the money be better spent on a signal generator? Don't forget the 3 DMMs (of varying price, I hope).Yes the DP832 is nice but it was pretty far down my shopping list. I will almost certainly never get to 30V and not even approach 3A. If I need a battery charger, they're also cheap. I bought some flashlights that came with a rechargeable battery and charger for < $10. I bought several so I have chargers all over the house.The point isn't to find out which things might use a PS but rather those things that can't be done any other way for a lot less money.Or buy something like the DP832 and be done with it. I sure like mine.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2020, 02:55:59 am
content: Probably one of the most valuable approaches is to not buy T&M kit until you can explain to SWMBO why you can't do without it.Buy kit when you can explain to someone who doesn't know anything about electronics why what you want to buy is essential. "Here's what I have to do and how long it takes without it. Here's how long it takes if I have it. "That's a useful constraint. It maximizes the acquisition of what really matters, knowledge. The more you know, the less you need. This forces you how to learn how to do things the way the person who figured it out did it.Have Fun!Reg

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2020, 06:29:04 am
content: The first PSU doesn't have to be a Rigol DP832 right away.At work we bought some of these:https://uk.farnell.com/tenma/72-2690/bench-power-supply-1-ch-30v-5a/dp/2563982While it looks like your usual old school twiddly knob analog PSU its actually a fully digital one. Both knobs are encoders that let you set the voltage and current on any digit resolution, it reacts instantly to the setting, the 7 segment readouts update fast and offer 1mA resolution, has manually resetable OCP protection. The thing starts up instantly and keeps last setting just like a analog one. If you want you can also get a model with a RS232 or USB interface for SCPI remote controll. Only downside is the fan control is a bit noisy at low speeds(fan PWM noises and keeps dancing around in speed).Also not saying a lab PSU is the way to charge batteries. I still use standard purpose built chargers for things like Ni-MH AAs or 18650s, but when i have some non standard pack like a 3 series Ni-Mh or lead acid or a pouch type lithium with wires coming out of it etc.. i just hook it up to a lab PSU because having banana terminals and cables for banana to various clips makes it easy to hook up the battery, and i like to see the voltage and current for these batteries where i am unsure if they are dead or still work.For the price of 77€ i think it is definitely worth having versus using wallwarts or hacked together PSUs.The next not so expensive but really useful thing is a hot air station. They can be had for under 50 bucks but makes working with small SMD components so much easier.