Larger PCBs without paying for CAD software? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: sci4me
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 08:00:30 pm
content: So I am working on a physically sizable project, and want to use large PCBs as such. What I have in mind is 8 in by 8 in PCBs or maybe even larger. However, I do not know what software to use to do this. It would be very ideal if I could use Eagle, but, I don't have over a thousand dollars to throw away. What would you guys recommend I do? And for that matter, why is Eagle so damn limited as far as PCB size goes?

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 08:11:57 pm
content: http://kicad-pcb.org/It's worth the money

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 08:55:01 pm
content: Diptrace is limited by number of pads (300 for free version) but size is not limited.. So if PCB's are large but not much components on them you could do it in Diptrace...And yes Kicad...

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 09:28:50 pm
content: Circuit MakerFree!

author: Savetheday
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 09:58:22 pm
content: I think the best choice is kicad but there are other softwares likehttp://fritzing.orgif you wanna be free , you could trywww.easyeda.com. At home at work everywhere you just have to pay for pcb (5xs)good luck

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 10:05:19 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 09, 2016, 08:55:01 pmActually you can get a 500 pin version for personal use for free:http://diptrace.com/buy/non-profit/An regarding KiCad: I really tried to like it, but I can't.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 11:45:06 pm
content: 8inx8in board is 64square inches = $320 @ Oshpark , are you aware of that fact ? others won't be cheaper either. You mentioned the $1k investment into software is a problem so i assume it's s low budget project.if you plan to make the boards yourself then you will need to invest into some materials and tools.just wanted to mention the software is not the only expensive part.and regarding the software - i would suggest KiCad - it's open, free and multi-platform.

author: sci4me
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 11:56:38 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on October 09, 2016, 11:45:06 pmYeah that's... that's a bit of a problem. I wonder if it would be feasible to make them myself? Would that probably end up being cheaper in the long run? Especially considering that I'll probably need multiple different boards of this size. I sort of feel like I want to avoid making them myself if possible... I imagine I would be more limited as far as spacing between traces and things?

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 12:18:11 am
content: Quote from: sci4me on October 09, 2016, 11:56:38 pmactually you can make such a board yourself for approx $25 (2 layers , 2xsoldermask, NO silkscreen , ~100vias) but you need to invest into materials and tools first. for example VIA rivets - yo have to buy a pack of 1000 for $40 even if you will use only 100 on your board... you have to buy the chemicals in 1kg packages even if you use 50grams... etc... and tools of course... powerfull UV light to expose the photoresist and solder mask, various plastic containers for etching, developing, rinsing... laminator to laminate the photoresist/soldermsk onto the boards... so it's some investment in the beginning, but you would be able to make the boards cheaper.

author: sci4me
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 02:02:54 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on October 10, 2016, 12:18:11 amThis sounds interesting... but I wonder if it would be worth it. I suppose, if the boards could be just as good, it probably would be...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 02:11:14 am
content: Quote from: sci4me on October 09, 2016, 08:00:30 pmThat is the restriction model they chose, sized based.It was a poor choice, and a lot of people do not realise how expensive Eagle is if you want to create a 161mm or larger PCB in any direction.Circuit Maker or Kicad are the major free alternatives.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 02:14:32 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on October 09, 2016, 11:45:06 pmWrong.PCBway is $66 + postage for a five 205mmx205mm boards, 3 day turnaround.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 08:00:06 am
content: Eagle can be cracked, which is illegal but will remove all of the restrictions for free. I have tried Eagle and don't like it. At work I use Proteus which is quite good and much cheaper than Eagle. As far as free is concerned, I'd go for KiCAD.Quote from: rob77 on October 10, 2016, 12:18:11 amWhat do you mean NO silk screen? A black silk screen can be applied using toner transfer, then fixed by spraying with a thin layer of lacquer or conformal coating.

author: ansonbao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 08:40:02 am
content: Quote from: ebclr on October 09, 2016, 08:11:57 pmKicad is a good software,easy to use and has a huge support in the open source hardware community.KiCad is available for different platforms like Windows, Mac and Linux.And KiCad has an integrated environment for schematic entry (Eeschema) and PCB design (Pcbnew) along with some tools like 3D visualization of PCB, bill of materials and Gerber file generation (GerbView).It has tools to import components from other EDA tools such as eagle.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 10:17:02 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on October 10, 2016, 08:00:06 amanything involving toner-transfer is basically a hit & miss. and also i doubt the toner would adhere well to the dry film soldermask.the only acceptable involvement of a toner is to make the image on the transparencies

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 12:48:14 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on October 10, 2016, 10:17:02 amI've done it myself before and it works perfectly. I didn't have a solder mask thought but I think the silk screen could be applied before.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 01:10:32 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on October 10, 2016, 12:48:14 pmi've done a ton of boards with toner transfer - and it's far from perfectanything more complex or with finer details is a hit & miss. and furthermore for a 20cmx20cm board you would need a hotplate press - there is simply no way to do the transfer without distortion to the image when using laminator or iron. it's kind of ok for small and simple boards but unusable for more complex or bigger ones.

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 01:51:59 pm
content: Quote from: ansonbao on October 10, 2016, 08:40:02 amKi-cad, easy to use?Oh man, I needed a good laugh!

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 02:18:44 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on October 10, 2016, 08:00:06 am

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 02:20:43 pm
content: Quote from: ludzinc on October 10, 2016, 01:51:59 pmWell, KiCAD is easy to use, most packages are relatively easy to use.

author: CraigHB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 05:19:00 pm
content: I think Eagle is one of the most unintuitive computer programs I've used. Took me a long time to get used to it. My main complaint with it now is it tries to help when drawing, but usually the help it lends is only a hindrance. Eagle has made me want to throw my monitor through the window at times. KiCAD has to at least be better than Eagle, the developers would have to really work at it to do worse.I either send my boards to the fab or make them myself. The simple ones I usually do myself just to avoid the turn-around time. I use toner transfer with a laminator. Based on my experience I would agree it might be a bit difficult to get an 8"x 8" board to transfer toner well. I'm sure it would be possible to make the board yourself and save some money, but how much is your time worth. Depending on board complexity it might be better to go with a fabricator due to the time involved in doing it yourself.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 05:59:35 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on October 10, 2016, 01:10:32 pmI've managed fine. You forget, that toner transfer for a silk screen, doesn't have to be as high quality as for etching because the toner doesn't have to resist strong chemicals and it's easier to touch up with a marker pen.Here's a PCB I did awhile ago, using toner transfer for the silk screen. It isn't perfect, but it's certainly better than not having a silk screen at all.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 06:28:59 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on October 10, 2016, 05:59:35 pmactually it looks really goodi agree for smaller and simpler boards it works well, i did a ton of toner transfer myself.but for bigger boards you'll get distortion and smaller details can't be consistently reproduced (e.g. silkscreen for boards with 0805 or smaller parts.) and not talking about the board's artwork itself... MSOP and 0,5mm pitch QFN is simply impossible with toner transfer (o.k. you might get lucky , but it's a hit & miss) while it's perfectly doable with dry film photo-resist and can be consistently reproduced many times without fail.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 06:47:01 pm
content: Quote from: CraigHB on October 10, 2016, 05:19:00 pmeach software has it's own "beloved features"Quote from: CraigHB on October 10, 2016, 05:19:00 pmonce you have all the tools and materials in place and you got some experience making PCBs - then it's upto 1 hour regardless of the board's size. you can do virtually any size , your only limiting factors are your printer's printable area to print your polyester transparencies, size of your laminator, the effective area of your UV source to do the exposure and of course size of developing and etching tank. if you have an A4 printer and laminator, then you can comfortably make boards upto 160x200mm (approx 6x8inches) and absolute maximum size will be approx 200x250mm.

author: CraigHB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 05:27:22 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on October 10, 2016, 06:47:01 pmI'm not inexperienced at making PCBs, I've made a good number of them. Simple ones I can do pretty quick, but when boards are double sided with hundreds of vias there's just no way to do that quickly by hand. There's enough time involved there to make sending out for fabrication preferable. Then there are boards with more than two layers which can be a necessity when footprint has to be absolutely minimal.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 10:02:42 pm
content: Quote from: CraigHB on October 11, 2016, 05:27:22 pmobviously hundreds of vias on a board is a complexity not suitable for riveted vias. i'm using rivets made by Bungard and the smallest ones are 0,4mm inner and 0,6mm outer diameter - so it's not even possible to make extra high density boards this way. multi-layer board is out of question. 4 layers is technically possible but it's too much work and it has severe limitations - the only stacking possible is ((1*2)+(3*4)) - basically two 0,6mm thick double sided boards glued together with high temp epoxy - i did it and it works, but it's way too limiting in terms of routing (you can't have vias going through all 4 layers - just 1&2 or 3&4 or 1&4) and it's simply too much work and takes ages to make it (epoxy cure time is 24hours).so in short yes, it has it's limitations to make the boards in your home/lab... but the limits are not that bad.. 2 sided board with soldermask , smallest via drill size is 0.6mm , and 0,5mm pitch packages - pretty usable for many many projects. and it also has it's advantages... don't have to wait days for my board(s) and if i make a stupid mistake i can do a re-spin in 1 hour and it costs me the raw materials only.and in situations like the OP - low budget and giant PCB footprint - it's probably the best option

author: sci4me
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 02:22:22 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on October 11, 2016, 10:02:42 pmHonestly, I think I may as well TRY it myself. Does anyone have a dummies guide for this? I have NO idea where to start with making my own PCBs.

author: CraigHB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 03:15:06 pm
content: There's some good how-to docs you can find on the web. It's something people write about a lot. When I first started using the toner transfer method that's how I got some good ideas on the best way to do it. Going to a laminator was a big help for me, though they sometimes need a little modification to get the temperature up high enough. I don't have any links for you, but should not be hard to find. Otherwise maybe someone else can provide a link to a good how-to.