Turning lights off automatically - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 02:23:37 pm
content: Does anyone know of a good system for turning lights (and plugs) of automatically when no on is in the room for a while?MY daughter is often up till 3.00-4.00am and leaves lights turned on and running all night. I have seen some of these "smart bulbs" and many of the talk about connecting to the cloud, dimming and colours but not proximity detection. There used to be a system called X10 for turning things on and of, not sure about proximity detection. Can't find much on that now, so I presume it has been superceded. I don't need my lights talking to Alexa or any other AI bot but if that's the only way I might consider it....

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 03:47:03 pm
content: Quotex10 is still alive and kicking,just.,and there's even a motion detectorhttps://www.x10.com/products/ms16a.however whether its compatible with uk rated x10 systems is another question. theres plenty of stand alone occupency detectors to chose from, for examplehttps://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Wiring_Accessories_Menu_Index/Occupancy_Switch/index.html#Occupancy_Switch_Ceiling_MiniOne problem is if the person don't move around enough they get plunged into darkness.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 04:57:23 pm
content: Don't bother with X10. It's a ridiculous protocol allowing almost anyone in the nearby neighbourhood to control your lights, or snoop on what your lights are doing, because it injects a signal into the AC carrier.If you want to do this kind of thing I recommend a Zigbee smart lamp system and a wireless PIR. These don't require an internet connection; you will need a hub but it can be isolated from the internet if you don't need the remote smart functions.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 05:17:19 pm
content: Yeah I had X10 stuff back in the 90s and it was cool, but I abandoned it about 15 years ago when the number of SMPSs, CFLs, and power strips with filters resulted in either so much noise or so much attenuation that it was extremely unreliable. Zigbee based stuff is the way to go now, that or WiFi. I have a mix of WiFi based stuff running Tasmota and zigbee. Philips Hue are the best bulbs I've tried but they're expensive. Ikea sells a range of zigbee bulbs, smart sockets and sensors. They have a PIR sensor although I have not tried it. Personally I integrate everything into Home Assistent running on a RPi so I have not tried the various gateways and cloud services out there but the hardware is cheap enough to give it a go and you can always fall back to Home Assistant if the company drops the stuff.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 06:09:09 pm
content: An acquaintance has just mentioned Gosund. Is this the same thing s as Zigbee?Thanks BTW. I did wonder whether X10 might no longer be up to scratch. The technology is quite old now. Will have a look at Zigbee.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 06:13:46 pm
content: What about removing the bulb for a week so she learns some discipline?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 06:20:38 pm
content: I've never heard of Gosund, but Zigbee is the primary standard out there that all of the better "smart home" stuff uses. Philips Hue, Ikea Tradfri, etc are all zigbee. A lot of the cheaper stuff is WiFi connected instead and is more proprietary.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 08:38:41 pm
content: And the problem with the Wi-Fi stuff is it's rubbish, we have some Tuya smart bulbs and they are quite unreliable and there is no guarantee in 10 years that the server in China will still work for them, and no way to change their API endpoint if it doesn't. Also you have to effectively consent to that server knowing what your smart home is doing. Hmm.Definitely get Zigbee compatible bulbs - Ikea sell smart ones for £15 each - not much of a premium over the cheapie Amazon ones but likely to last much longer.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 08:49:50 pm
content: Have your daughter pay the electric bill. If she can't afford it then give her an 'allowance' that is about 90% of your current electric bill.If that doesn't work, they are lightbulbs that come with PIR sensors built in. I haven't tried them but I like the idea of avoiding networking all together.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 09:08:45 pm
content: With modern LED bulbs the electric bill is going to be negligible anyway. A common 60W equivalent consumes about as much power as an old style incandescent nightlight.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 08:29:30 am
content: Why is she up till stupid o'clock in the morning?What time does the rest of the family go to bed and get up?If everyone else goes to bed and gets up much earlier and there's no reason for he to be awake at that time, simply tell her to go to bed. In the morning, when everyone else is awake, go and wake her up. Vacuum the house and play loud music first thing in the morning. Once she learns she has to be up at a reasonable time, she'll go to bed much earlier.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 08:33:06 am
content: IR motion sensing light switch replacement, at Amazon or Home Depotbeware of the minimum load required and that some need a neural /ground and others are 2 wireJon

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 12:37:28 pm
content: QuoteMan, people actually buy stuff that works this way? The world has gotten a lot stupider since I last checked.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 05:48:02 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on October 22, 2022, 12:37:28 pmI don't think it's reasonable to expect most people to know any better. To a lot of ordinary people electricity is magic in the walls that makes the lights work, they have no idea how it actually functions and don't care. The average consumer has no clue how a smart bulb works, they just set it up following the instructions on the box and if it does what it's supposed to do they're happy.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 08:14:01 pm
content: How much current do Wi-Fi devices use?I have another idea: switch of the lights at the circuit breaker before you go to bed. You could even fit a padlock to the consumer unit, so she can't unlock it.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 08:34:00 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on October 22, 2022, 12:37:28 pmThey were a gift, but definitely a 'cursed present' if you can name one.At least you can use them as standard white LED bulbs (cool white) if you turn them on and off, just don't switch them on and off too quick or they go into programming mode and flash every second.Oh I'm not selling these well am I...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 09:00:49 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on October 22, 2022, 08:14:01 pmThe better ones are well under half a watt, the worst I've seen had a draw of about 0.7W.Shutting off power at the breaker could be hazardous if there is an emergency and you need light to see what you're doing. Also it may be different in some regions but here it's typical for one breaker to supply multiple rooms.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 09:24:50 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 22, 2022, 09:00:49 pmIn my house one breaker is connected to all of the upstairs lighting. I don't see how switching it off is hazardous. Power cuts do happen and there's normally enough light in my house, even at night for me to see well enough to walk around and I've got the light on my phone, for real emergencies.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 01:21:30 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on October 22, 2022, 09:24:50 pmWell yes, power cuts happen, and emergency lighting is not just for decoration. If there's a fire or an earthquake or some other need to evacuate rapidly it would be nice to have lights. Probably not the end of the world to be without but less than ideal. Also if your receptacles are on the same circuit you'd have to reset any alarm clocks that didn't have a battery backup.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 01:28:13 am
content: QuoteIn the uk the lighting is generally on its own circuit separate to the sockets

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 05:09:02 am
content: And emergency lighting isn't generally found in private residences, since there's no legal requirement for it. The kind of earthquakes we get here aren't dangerous, and power cuts are usually due to bad weather.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 07:16:25 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 21, 2022, 08:38:41 pmThe Shelly wifi relays are good. In UK lighting circuits, they can most easily be fitted at the ceiling rose (they need a neutral) and they will accept switched live as a control input. There is a ‘cloud’ server but there is no need to enable it if you don’t want to. You can control them using an http API, or they talk MQTT natively- this is what I use

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 10:03:38 am
content: Not to be judgmental, but I don't think this is a failure of technology (or a problem that should be fixed with technology). Sometimes, simple is better.If she can't work out how to turn lights off when she is done in a room or before going to bed, then, perhaps another conversation needs to occur?Certain actions have consequences. If she can't learn some basic life skills, perhaps it will cost her in actual dollars, or chores around the house? I mean why solve laziness or apathy with technology that will "do it for them"?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 12:06:35 pm
content: Quotebut isn't that what mankind has been doing since the invention of the wheel?

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 12:16:49 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on October 22, 2022, 08:14:01 pmThat made me smile and funnily enough I had wondered whether the continuous trickle current might outweigh the cost benefit of having such device on ligting, much the same way that we are advised to unplug the TV and not have it on standby?Quote from: james_s on October 21, 2022, 06:20:38 pmThat is interesting. I researched Zigbee and it would appear that it uses the same part of the 2.4GHz band as WiFi and is said to interfere with it unless carefully set up. On the other hand, reliability is an important consideration as well. As it happens, a friend of mine has some home automation and has been complaining about the WiFi "freezing". They even had a Virgin Media engineer out to investigate and they found nothing. I would have to investigate further, but this might have just provided me with one possible explanation.Quote from: Zero999 on October 22, 2022, 08:14:01 pmThanks. Will check out Shelly.Quote from: Halcyon on October 23, 2022, 10:03:38 amIts a fair point and we had numerous "conversations". I agree that technology is perhaps not the answer here. Just exploring all possibilities.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 12:21:33 pm
content: if you have cell phone signal sensors built in to a light socket.most people under the age of___ are married to their phone

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 07:33:21 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 23, 2022, 12:16:49 pmIt's possible that I'm just lucky, but I have lots of zigbee devices, some bluetooth, 2.4GHz WiFi and a microwave oven in my house and everything coexists harmoniously. I don't think all of the available WiFi channels overlap zigbee. Also zigbee is used for low traffic stuff like home automation, just a few bytes flying around.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 08:28:50 pm
content: Don't worry too much though. Your government will find a way to do this for you.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 08:39:48 pm
content: Zigbee is also a mesh network*, so if a lightbulb can't reach the hub, it can hopefully receive commands through another bulb or device. It's also only a few tens of kbit/s so not really a big deal if signal strength is weak as modulation scheme is minimal.*Does not apply for (most) battery powered devices which act as receivers only

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:28:59 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on October 23, 2022, 12:21:33 pmThe correct answer for the blank is “100”. I actually find that many elderly people are more glued to their phones than young ones. (My theory is this: young people grew up with smartphones and understand that not every notification demands an immediate response. The elderly, in my observation, tend to treat every incoming call and text message with the utmost urgency, kinda like back in the landline days…)

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 06:40:52 am
content: Well, I don't know about over there, but here in the US the latest irritating thing is lights that automatically switch off in the public restrooms. And one without a window can get really dark with no light. Errrrrrrrr!!It is all built into the switch which is located by the door. You might look at a local electric supply house. I would bet they have similar switches.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 06:48:13 am
content: I mean, I’ve run into that problem, but I’ve only ever seen PIR motion sensors used for the purpose.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 07:19:40 am
content: Quote from: EPAIII on October 25, 2022, 06:40:52 amA place I used to work put those stupid things in the bathroom, in the box by the door formerly containing the ordinary switches. More than once I had to wipe my ass in pitch darkness or by the light of my mobile phone screen.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 07:38:34 am
content: Those kinds of switches sound like something that died out in the early 2000's. They were used in public toilets. It was basically a slow release button that took a couple of minutes to turn itself off once it was pushed in. Utterly terrible, very annoying.Maybe install one in the daughter's room?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 11:44:06 am
content: Definitely still sold today, the old apartment I lived in had them, in the communal spaces where the landlord has to pay for the electricity. Pneumatic or spring based I suspect. But not ideal for that application: many frustrated residents had hit them and eventually they get stuck "on", completely defeating the point.There are also modern electronic versions which work fine, but have the same frustration. Still could be ok for low occupancy areas, like utility rooms and garages, as long as there is an override too.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 11:53:57 am
content: Quotethe original version could easily be bypassed with a match stick,push in button and wedge a match stick between button and case

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 05:38:15 pm
content: Quote from: John B on October 25, 2022, 07:38:34 amThose do sound annoying. At least the ones I'm referring to have PIR sensors, but when they're installed in place of conventional switches the PIR sensors often are in a far from optimal location to see occupants of the room. We have them in the conference rooms at the place I currently work and they're fine in those, anyone present anywhere in the room is enough to keep the lights on.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 04:02:48 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 25, 2022, 05:38:15 pmIf they are relatively still, ie reading a book or something, the sensor won't pick them up. Microwave sensors aren't really any better either, I find it very annoying to have to wave at the damn things every 5, 10, 15 minutes, or whatever the timer has been set at.If you're slow enough, you can move past a PIR without setting it off, haven't tried it with a mw sensor though.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 04:33:54 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on October 26, 2022, 04:02:48 pmA contact sensor on the door and a bit of logic can help with that: room can't become vacant while door is closed.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 04:48:00 pm
content: Quote from: Kasper on October 26, 2022, 04:33:54 pmI think you'd have trouble making that reliable. It's fairly common for somebody to open the door as they are entering/exiting and then somebody else passes the other way before it closes. There are also times when multiple people will enter a room at once and only a portion of them leave.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 05:13:41 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 26, 2022, 04:48:00 pmIt's extra info into a system that suffers from lack of info. Don't rely on it heavily and it can yield an improvement. Don't remove the occupancy hold time, just make it longer when you think the room is occupied.If it falsely assumes an occupied room is vacant for example when someone leaves while the remaining occupants sit still then you have the same problem and solution as before: wave your arm.If it causes a false assumption an empty room is occupied then lights stay on a bit longer than they would have otherwise but perhaps without this system the lights would always stay on that long anyways because people get tired of waving their arms and increase the occupancy hold time. Either way, this case should be rare with a motion sensor of decent quality.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 05:20:35 pm
content: I suppose it is an improvement, still I would prefer a conventional switch, or a conventional switch augmented by an occupancy sensor that turns off the light after an hour or two, or at a fixed time after the business is closed. Modern lighting uses so little power that I don't think it's worth major efforts to shut it off constantly, it would be better to teach people to turn it off when not needed, or have it shut off at night but leave it alone the rest of the time.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 05:28:23 pm
content: I agree for some lights, it doesn't seem worth it. If you're using occupancy to adjust HVAC limits, then it could be worth it. In that case the lights are a warning to the occupants: wave your arm or else the temperature is going to get slightly less comfortable in here.

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2022, 09:32:11 pm
content: Yeah there should be lots of smartbulbs these days. But for older ways, there's relays and SCR/triac type stuff, which I don't have laying around.But what about wall mounted devices, that would flick the switch, with the use of a little motor, or spring, or electromagnet to release some latch, etc. Does anyone try making something like that ? I sometimes think of trying to make such a thing, but IDK, I walk by the switches all the time anyways.I would like to make an alarm for my stove, and my house doors too.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2022, 09:57:49 pm
content: Quote from: MathWizard on October 27, 2022, 09:32:11 pmI don't think I've ever seen a motorized switch like that but it would be cool.The switches in most office buildings are spring loaded and rest in the center. You push up to turn the light on and down to turn it off. They traditionally would control latching relays that mount in a junction box for the first light on the run, I don't know if it's still done like that.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2022, 10:02:20 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 27, 2022, 09:57:49 pmSpeaking of cool ways to flip a switch, here is one for water valves:https://www.amazon.ca/Dome-Automation-Water-Shut-Off-Valve/dp/B01LX3JFR8

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2022, 10:05:29 pm
content: QuoteQuoteRealy? cant recall 1 instance were ive seen that sort of switching arrangement in the many 100's of office buildings ive worked in.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2022, 10:25:28 pm
content: Definitely a commercial producthttps://www.amazon.co.uk/MoesGo-Bluetooth-Fingerbot-Wireless-Compatible/dp/B09XF1R3R2Popular in rented places where you're not allowed to ... ahem ... not supposed to modify the electrics.

author: SmallCog
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2022, 12:14:25 am
content: We have PIR sensors with an integrated timer in our open plan office at work.They worked OK in the middle of the day when there's often someone wandering around but from time to time with people just sitting at their desks/benches they'd plunge the place into darkness.Once they offloaded all non-essentials to work from home at the start of Covid and only had 2 people in the building at a time it got downright annoying so we looped them all out.

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2022, 12:36:00 am
content: themadhippy, yeah that's along the lines of what a lot of people could make. And I know myself I used to take apart TV's and stereo's, like many hobbiest, just collecting parts. But I've yet to play around with any of the IR stuff I have. I should, but IDK. Actually I should try to make my something for my outdoor lights. This winter I'll have time and money, I should make something.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2022, 12:38:03 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 27, 2022, 10:05:29 pmDo I really need to specify *USA* office buildings? I hoped it would be implied by the flag by my name. I have no idea what is used in other parts of the world, I'm in the USA, my perspective unless otherwise noted is from the country in which I live.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2022, 08:02:39 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 28, 2022, 12:38:03 amWith the explicit reminder that I am saying this as an American myself: your attitude is exactly what so many people outside of USA despise about Americans. The whole world isn’t the same as the USA, and they hate it when we simply assume our way is the default.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2022, 08:51:31 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 28, 2022, 08:02:39 pmI'm not saying the whole world is the same as the USA, but since my location is specified I don't see why it's necessary to specify the location I'm talking about. For what it's worth I have observed this is standard behavior for practically everyone, they speak from the perspective of wherever they happen to live and it is just understood that is the case. You can't expect people that have lived their whole life in one country to have any feeling for what it's like somewhere else.Our way is the default, in our country. In other countries I would assume that country's way is the default. When I speak of something, I'm speaking from the perspective of my own country, unless I specify otherwise. If I see somebody is in France and they talk about something, I'm going to assume they're talking about France, unless they say otherwise. What's wrong with that? It would be different in an anonymous forum where location of participants is unknown, but in this forum we are able to show our location for this exact reason. It saves having to specify in every post.

author: Electroplated
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2022, 09:01:03 pm
content: Its probably going to cost more buying tech to solve the issue than you would save off your electric bill.I solved a similar problem simply by using this method:Daughter meet light switch ( shows daughter the light switch and its function in a sarcastic manner )Daughter meet electric bill.Luckily that seemed to drive the point home because the next step in this learning process was to introduce her to a home made cattle prod, I don't have the patience to keep repeating myself to people.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2022, 09:35:24 pm
content: I suppose it could be fun to build a device that monitors consumption, or even just time and then bill your daughter an amount each month for the energy consumed. The actual amount is likely to be fairly trivial next to the effort required but it could teach a valuable life lesson and form good habits. People tend to be better at conserving resources when they are paying for them directly.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 08:18:09 pm
content: Last comment deleted as posted in wrong thread.