My Fluke died.... what now? Please recommend me one. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: The Guy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 02:44:13 am
content: Hi,Well, my 187 fluke multimeter just died and now I need to get a new meter but I don't want no flukes no more, done with flukes...which great meter could I get instead?My main concern is reliability, i don't want to waste 700 dollars again.Thanks

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 03:04:12 am
content: You can't get it repaired under warranty? If not I can understand why you would not want one again. Really, no warranty?Well in that case have a look at the Brymen BM525S, BM869S, or some Keysight models. Much less money but not all have the same functions so pick your poison.The BM525S is 10,000 counts but has internal logging. The BM869S does not have internal logging but has 50,000 counts and 500,000 on some functions. Both have optional USB connectivity and logging.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 03:05:51 am
content: Did it die or was it killed? In other words, what do you mean by reliability? The most likely way for a meter to fail is due to some kind of stress, either electrical, mechanical, or environmental. So if you can define what kind of stresses you want your meter to hold up to, it will help you to pick a meter that is most robustly designed to withstand them.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 03:06:38 am
content: Get a couple of $20 UNI-Ts and stop worrying about them dying and caring about them like they are heirlooms.

author: The Guy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 03:17:35 am
content: Quote from: IanB on June 28, 2017, 03:05:51 amIt died man... it died like a sucker.I was measuring around 450VDC and then it suddenly stopped giving data...the goddarned voltage divider resistor network got fried.

author: The Guy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 03:20:35 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on June 28, 2017, 03:04:12 amAsi no ma' po compadre...No warranty for my fluke in my countryit sucks right? Anyway, will check out your suggestions.

author: PowerNet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 03:36:41 am
content: Buy Fluke 87 VI

author: BU508A
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 06:18:47 am
content: Quote from: The Guy on June 28, 2017, 02:44:13 amProbably one of these:Agilent U1252B -http://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-U1252b-Digital-Multimeter-/292140659554Brymen BM869s -http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm869s/or, if you are not in a hurry, wait for the EEVBlog DMM GW121 -https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1243525/#msg1243525BU508AEdit: Typo

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 06:22:12 am
content: have you got a photo of the damage?

author: lowimpedance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 06:35:11 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on June 28, 2017, 06:22:12 amLink to repair thread where the problem part has been identified and meter considered BER.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/urgent!-my-fluke-187-multimeter-stopped-reading-voltages-(ac-and-dc)/Therefore now this thread !.If the Hioki meters are readily available at a good price where you are then look at those too.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 07:28:06 am
content: Brymens are well-regarded.Or ... if you want cheap 'sacrificial' meter, the Fluke 101 is only $42 (delivered!) and is the toughest meter so far in the electrical robustness thread.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 07:44:10 am
content: Get it FIXED please !187 will still be miles ahead in many respects compared to bug riddled eye candy meters many drool over,cheaper than buying an equivalent new Fluke, or a current expensive "Flook 87veee Made In TBC"(oops...I need to watch that)'good as it gets' proper CAT ratingfast as lightning continuity chirping buzzer!(operates without bird food afaict)AC+DCNO MENU BS !!!User modifiable multiple preset Startup OptionsFWIW no one is going to take you seriously at most job sites waving a cheapo RED meter around (FACT!)I can keep going all day if you like...or if you really are THAT over the Fluke vibe, get anEEVblog meterand get on with the job

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 09:01:13 am
content: QuoteIf I read the pictures well on my tiny screen the Fluke is 15 years old, all electronic devices die someday by themselves, others, like probably yours, are killed by the user. So I would not say waisted money, it served you 15 years well.If the resistor network is burned, I do not think you can blame Fluke for that. I think the 450V was a bit more as 450V. Maybe some inductive kickback.I killed a RF diff probe measuring in the 5V part of some gear. This probe can handle 250V differential but only25V common mode. Turned out the guy who tried to repair it before me switched some connectors and now there was a >200V common mode signal on the point I measured.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 09:18:33 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on June 28, 2017, 07:44:10 amThe Fluke 87 that failed in the robustness thread failed was because of a couple of transistors in the input stage (maybe like the two-transistor clamp shown in EEVBLOG #1000?). Quite easy to fix.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 09:25:05 am
content: QuoteFirstly, the OP said it is a Fluke 187. It is not clear how and why it died. The ceramic resistor divider network has an open circuit on it BUT none of the input protection components are damaged.So, maybe PA4TIM is right and the component just failed. I find it hard to believe myself, these things are pretty robust electrically.Secondly, the OP has not specified what he wants exactly or what he want to do with a new meter.Hard to make recommendations if a) we do not know what he wants to replace or b)what he is looking for

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 09:33:08 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 01, 1974, 12:44:48 pmBoom is a problem. A major problem.The whole raison d'etre for high-quality meters is so those "really nasty voltages" don't become really nasty currents in an arc-flash incident after a poorly-designed meter arcs over internally. 450V and the amperage its finger-thick conductors typically can carry falls squarely into the "serious business" category. One uses junk, mystery meters in this application at their own peril.Connecting such a cheap meter, then powering on the circuit to make such a device "safe" is completely unrealistic and frankly, dangerous. This procedure does not make such things safe. The meter will not explode in ones hand, but the arc-flash incident will occur anyway. The burns and eye damage from these incidents are horrific, so I would recommend in the strongest possible terms to NOT use a cheapo meter as a sacrificial device in a high-energy environment.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 09:47:28 am
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on June 28, 2017, 09:33:08 amYou're correct. I'll fix my post just in case anybody gets the wrong idea.If you're on a budget and need an occasional 'sacrificial' meter, get a Fluke 101. At that price there's reallynoexcuse.And ... if you regularly measure 450VDC then get a meter that's designed for the job.Even if the sparks don't get you the temporary blindness might and the hearing damage isn't worth it.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 09:58:25 am
content: How much time has passed since Mr. JQS did the 101 series tests,how old was the 101 meter back then,and where are the new lot made, same place, same quality standard?will the latest batch survive the same JQS tests again?I would want to know for certain, before recommending it as a 'sacrificial' meter to anyone101 is feature starved compared to a 187

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 10:18:03 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on June 28, 2017, 09:58:25 amStill looking for a ban...?Quote from: Electro Detective on June 28, 2017, 09:58:25 amOne of the reasons a Fluke 101 achieves its high safety rating is there's no current measurements. All input paths on a 101 are high-impedance.Is that a bad thing? That's up to you.As an EE you'll need another meter for the missing ranges, but... you probably have more than one meter anyway and the Fluke 101 is a dirt cheap second meter with reasonable specs.

author: The Guy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 03:28:13 pm
content: Quote from: BU508A on June 28, 2017, 06:18:47 amWhaaa? The eevblog gw121 looks like my ticket.... Is it going to be manufactured in the usa?

author: The Guy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 03:42:05 pm
content: Quote from: MosherIV on June 28, 2017, 09:25:05 amI want it for building audio equipment, mainly tube amplfiers. The 187 was a great metter for that purpose feature-wise

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 03:54:17 pm
content: QuoteThen I agree with BU508A,Any Keysight (previously Agilent) U124x or U125x(there is a deal on at the moment :http://www.ebay.com/itm/292140659554(Do not know if the link is working or if this is the guys latest - ebay blocked at work)orBrymen BM869sThose ones are competing with each other.I think it is worth fixing the Fluke187, it is even better then the Fluke87I know you have not had the excellent reliability of Fluke, it is just bad luckSorry

author: The Guy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 04:24:12 pm
content: Quote from: MosherIV on June 28, 2017, 03:54:17 pmThanks for the recommendations.Will give it a shot at fixin it... the expenses are the main issue, specially the re calibration. Need to find a guy that will re calibrate it for cheap

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 05:28:50 pm
content: Quote from: The Guy on June 28, 2017, 03:42:05 pmThe 187 (and 189) has a 100khz AC bandwidth (same as 289/287 and 8060A) and would be a MUST HAVE for any audio work.In reality you can expect a decent flat-ish response up to 30 to 50 khz depending on levels and settingsThe older Fluke 87-1 and 87V (the GENUINE Made In USA ones) have 20khz AC bandwidth and whilst they sort of start rolling off at about 14 to 15khz (clean ultra low distortion sine waves) , they do the audio thing well enough. I have tested both side by side and performance is identical.Usually these Flukes provide an honest AC performance graph and specs, and one department where they leave most other meters in the dustIf the Agilent/Keysight/NextName, Gossen and Brymen crowd want to pit their -???khz-- meters against the Flukes it would be an awesome shootout

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 05:45:03 pm
content: Quote from: The Guy on June 28, 2017, 04:24:12 pmEven if you fix your Fluke, the BM869s would be a handy second meter to have. It is inexpensive enough that you don't have to worry too much about not liking it.

author: mzacharias
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 06:02:41 pm
content: One can usually repair and confirm proper operation without "calibration". If calibration is required it is usually for government or other legal reasons.My Flukes are all "out-of-cal". So what? I only use them on my home bench.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 06:07:45 pm
content: Except that if you replace the input resistor divider network you would most likely have to adjust the meter so that it gives the correct readings after that change.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 06:34:47 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on June 28, 2017, 07:44:10 amWhich meters are you referring to?Quote from: Electro Detective on June 28, 2017, 07:44:10 amCheaper to repair, cheaper to buy a replacement? What do you mean?Quote from: Electro Detective on June 28, 2017, 07:44:10 amThere are other meters with higher 3rd party certified CAT ratings, so how can you say that?Quote from: Electro Detective on June 28, 2017, 07:44:10 amNot the only meter that does thatQuote from: Electro Detective on June 28, 2017, 07:44:10 amSee aboveQuote from: Electro Detective on June 28, 2017, 07:44:10 amSome prefer to have more functions and sometimes this requires a menu or two.Quote from: Electro Detective on June 28, 2017, 07:44:10 amAgain, not exclusive to the 187Quote from: Electro Detective on June 28, 2017, 07:44:10 amI call BS on that one. Prove it.Quote from: Electro Detective on June 28, 2017, 07:44:10 amNah not thanks, I am getting tired of shoveling....Quote from: Electro Detective on June 28, 2017, 07:44:10 amDoesn't this contradict everything you have already said? And no offense to Dave, but you are recommending a completely new, untested, un reviewed, and not even in production meter to someone who wants something that is known reliable and is actually available? There is nothing to say that Dave's meter will be ready for another 6 months or more. It will probably be a great meter, but probably is not a sure thing.I will keep my shovel handy I guess.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 06:45:01 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on June 28, 2017, 06:34:47 pmUm, Dave's been selling a meter for quite a while now.

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 06:55:42 pm
content: Quote from: mzacharias on June 28, 2017, 06:02:41 pmCorrect, but here is meant calibration + adjustment, "calibration" is sometimes incorrectly associated with "adjustment".Edit: this meter needs specialized equipment to adjust it, making alterations in the ROM.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 07:28:54 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 28, 2017, 09:47:28 amA relatively inexpensive ($100-200), but properly designed handheld meter is the correct choice about 95% of the time.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 09:00:06 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 28, 2017, 06:45:01 pmReally, who knew?I was referring to Dave's meter, not the Brymen he resells. The 121GW, ffs....

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 10:32:11 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on June 28, 2017, 09:00:06 pmUp till then I thought you were trying to be legit knocking aside my recommendations

author: BigBoss
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 10:42:15 pm
content: Buy a Gossen-Metrawatt , use it years ans years..

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 10:52:00 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on June 28, 2017, 06:34:47 pmYou lost us all on that last partEntertainment humor asideOP needs a meter for audio work, most TRMS meters AC response max out to 2khz,OPs goes up to 100khz,best he gets an honest FINAL quote to get the 187 meter back on track,or sell it here as'parts / as is / knackered'etc and get some cash for the next high AC bandwidth 'audio friendly' meter

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 29, 2017, 04:17:24 am
content: If the OP can repair his 187 and have it calibrated after the repair for less than the price of a Brymen BM869S, then perhaps it is worth it. I applaud those who fix things instead of throwing them in the garbage.The BM869S has a bandwidth of 100kHz, a higher CAT rating than the 187, and default memory of last settings at startup. It seems to me that it would be a possible good alternative to 15yr old repaired meter that has no warranty. It is just a suggestion rather than a unsubstantiated assertion that Fluke is better than anything else anytime anyhow.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2017, 10:56:33 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on June 29, 2017, 04:17:24 amYep, but I have a feeling he can't. It's going to need repairandcalibration. Just the calibration could cost $100+ (especially if he has to ship it somehere).Quote from: Lightages on June 29, 2017, 04:17:24 amAlso: Get a cheapo meter for measuring the high voltage DC save the fancy meter for the fancy measurements.eg.Fluke 101, $42 for CAT III 600VFluke 15B+, $82 for CAT II 1000V, CAT III 600V (get this if you need to measure up to 1000V)Quote from: Lightages on June 29, 2017, 04:17:24 amBoth those suggestions are Flukes.But, to be fair: a) I don't think there's many meters in that price range that have genuine certifications, and b) both of those have been zapped and done well in the 'robustness' thread.(OK, it was a 17B+ not a 15B+ but they're very similar)

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2017, 04:56:24 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 29, 2017, 10:56:33 amBut if you are working with vacuum tube audio gear you may need to measure AC at audio frequencies and high voltages?

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2017, 10:49:05 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on June 29, 2017, 04:56:24 pmBoth comments are valid, so...OP will have to tone down those suspect incoming AC voltages with a high voltage probe or some sort of resistive circuit in a box with flying leads and fast fuse.Otherwise the fixed 187, or Brymen, Gossen, Keysight replacement may also emit magic fumes

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2017, 10:52:58 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on June 29, 2017, 04:56:24 pmNot only that, but by this reason if you have to watch out every single move to protect the "fancy meter" from being exposed to voltagesbelow its rated specs, then why have it in the first place? Vacuum tube amplifiers normally do not need the 187 precision anyways, and a 20kHz bandwidth meter will take you very far in audio.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2017, 01:25:27 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on June 29, 2017, 10:52:58 pmHow do you know they're "below its rated specs"?If you're diagnosing something with a multimeter then presumably it might be faulty in some way. Higher voltages than expected may ensue.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2017, 02:36:59 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 30, 2017, 01:25:27 amWell, you are right in the sense that higher voltages may happen1, but I was going with whatever the OP mentioned: "I was measuring around 450VDC and then it suddenly stopped giving data..."My original point still stands. If your meter is cause for concern in every step on the way, then the correct course of action would be to move on to something else more robust - that or something cheaper/disposable2, but in this case there is a risk of it blowing up spectacularly in your hand.1In my experience, valve amplifiers do not develop voltages much larger than 500V - even still, it is rather unusual to have spikes in the signal path, unless an output transformer tap is intermittent or disconnected.2I know that a Fluke 101 can be had for cheap but, depending on the country, the import taxes and the lag caused by the customs office may offset any advantages.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2017, 05:07:47 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on June 30, 2017, 02:36:59 pmI guess we'll never know the details butsomethingkilled his fancy, 1000V rated, $700 multimeter.Who's to say it won't happen again if he spends another $700 on a new one?Quote from: rsjsouza on June 30, 2017, 02:36:59 pmAnd as noted by me:a) The concern isn't the meter, it's the voltage of the DUT.b) You can get a properly-rated, 1000V meter that won't blow up in your hand for $82 (Fluke 15B+).c) You shouldn't be holding it in your hand anyway, use crocodile clips.But hey, it's just an opinion. It's whatI'ddo if I regularly had to measure high voltages on devices under development/repair.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2017, 06:03:54 pm
content: I've make several attenuators over the years to look at higher voltage signals than the meters were made for. This one is a divide by 10. So for a 1000V meter, I can measure around 10KV with it. Here you can see Dave's meter reading a 5KV supply. The attenuator has some HRC fuses, HV resistors, an internal clamp and it is also potted. Even at 10KV, the currents are so low in the output, I can handle it. It can also be flipped any which way. There is no polarity with it. It's also designed to handle a single point failure and still protect the meter.I made a video about it that explains why I designed it the way I did.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2017, 06:44:45 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 30, 2017, 05:07:47 pmThere isanother threadwhere the OP exposes a few additional details and open the possibility of the failures come from something else other than electrical. Part of my assumptions on this thread come from that discussion.Quote from: Fungus on June 30, 2017, 05:07:47 pmNobody, really.Quote from: Fungus on June 30, 2017, 05:07:47 pmIMO your "fancy meter" remark was showing concern for the meter and not the DUT voltage; however, if you say so, then my apologies.Quote from: Fungus on June 30, 2017, 05:07:47 pmSee remark #2 in my original post. Besides, my point is still valid. The $700 1000V Cat III rated meter and the 15B+ should be equally suitable for the task at hand.Quote from: Fungus on June 30, 2017, 05:07:47 pmUse crocodile clips to hold the meter?(I know what you mean... )Look, I think we would adopt a very similar procedure but with the only difference is which meters we would expose to what conditions. Unfortunately for the OP, he trusted the expensive meter would withstand the DUT (which based on the data it should have) and it may have been victim of simply bad luck. The other thread mentions how this meter non-repairable unless he sinks more money into it. Unfortunately not only warranties are not applied equally across the globe but it is also the manufacturers' discretion to decide if the failure is caused by abuse or workmanship.