What is the name of this 5 axis positioning tool? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 07:04:54 am
content: It may not be electronics gear.I’m trying to clear out the estate of a friend and came across this 5 way adjustable positioning tool that may have been used to position a laser. It doesn’t look like it can clamp things for lathe or milling machine uses very easily. There is lots of diverse talent on this forum and I thought somebody might know more about it.Thanks for looking.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 07:28:06 am
content: The XY version is called a coordinate table. So this is more advanced coordinate table.

author: DTJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 08:08:13 am
content: Perhaps used as a jig for sharpening tools or cutting bits?It does not look rigid enough for removing too much metal on a mill.If you use usenet, try posting on rec.crafts.metalworkingThere are heaps of old guys there who will know exactly what its for.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 10:00:49 am
content: It's a [Edit:34]-axis slide for milling isn't it?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 11:04:05 am
content: Quote from: DTJ on January 09, 2019, 08:08:13 ammore like a legendary (classic) 4 axis milling technology. its under various name in ebay, sliding, positioning, trimming table etc. but one thing in common is... "4 axis" (XYZA). the later technology is more like one of this...the more more current is 5 axis (XYZAC) or probably more... dont waste your time asking for the price...http://tecshop.dksh.com.sg/product/alzmetall-gs-1000-vmc

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 11:15:30 am
content: It's got a vice/clamp on it, so I'd probably call it a 5-axis vice or 5-axis clamp. Shame it's not self-centering.

author: trevatxtal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 04:38:30 pm
content: It looks similar to a Myford Lathe milling attachment.Look athttp://www.lathes.co.uk/

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 04:44:29 pm
content: yea that is too beefy and crusty for lasers.It looks like a add-on tool for a lathe or milling machine that came in project catalogs back in the old days.check out mrpete222 on youtube, he is a youtube machine shop teacher that goes into some details about these kinds of attachments, their design goals, drawbacks, etc, and he actually does some comparison. the idea was that you can make your machine do crazy stuff with attachments but it won't be very accurate. But he does have like 1000 videos so you might need to look, I have seen something similar for a atlas lathe.The problem with this thing is that it is not very stiff, so unless you are doing light work it will vibrate and bend and cause errors. I have a feeling that it would work pretty good so long you are not trying to make precision mechanical devices. I think it would work on a drill press for making holes at weird angles in a repeatable way without a jig.The big degree indicator bands are potentially a sign of good quality though.nevermind its just dirty, it has no indicators as far as I can tell.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 06:33:25 pm
content: Seems pretty beefy from the photos, there's even that reinforcing rib on the Z axis. And probably a fairly decent piece as well, those screws with nuts on them along each access are for adjusting the gibs. Fairly old, since they are all slotted screws, all the machine tools I worked with int he 80's had cap head screws even for that, except the really old stuff we had in the shop.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 06:42:16 pm
content: I thought it may have been an old school laser mount because the device was in the estate of a friend that was a scientific instrument maker for the physics department at UC Berkeley. He also had a nice machine shop at his home. Some of the items he had seemed to be surplus things from his work environment that he probably thought he could use or things he thought were too neat to scrap.I’ll have to take some better pictures but I believe there are index marks for all moving planes. The clamp part is quite shallow but very sturdy. Some of the early lasers were quite heavy and in a well-funded scientific scenario this might have been a very expensive (to us taxpayers) laser accessory that became obsolete quickly.Tom Lipton of youtube OxToolshttps://www.youtube.com/user/oxtoolco/videoslooked at it and thought it was neat but couldn’t confirm that it was a lathe or milling machine attachment he had ever seen.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 07:05:40 pm
content: Looks pretty decent, nice bit of cast iron and fairly rigid, definately old school. It looks like it might have been used as part of a grinder for tool making, somewhere between a bench grinder and a surface grinder, just a wild guess. Wouldn't be much use as an arbor press as they use a rack and pinion.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 07:24:25 pm
content: It's a multi axis vise. A very solid looking, extraordinarily flexible but still quite mainstream, not esoteric vise.Very much something that anybody who was an expert maker would find it very useful to have.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2019, 03:17:29 pm
content: It's probably for a tool and cutter grinder. Nowhere near rigid enough to use on a machine tool. Notice the slides have no locking mechanism. That means the slop will be magnified the higher you go. This is purely a positioning device, might be able to do a little grinding with it.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2019, 09:41:47 pm
content: I cleaned up the device, it had dirt stuck to grease that kept it from rusting, and took a few more pictures. The rotating elements are interchangeable and lock with two locks each for three point clamping; the Z axis has a gibb clamp; the other slides do not lock, but could easily be made to lock. This suggests to me that it was designed to be used with the mounting plate anchored to a horizontal surface. It weighs 33 pounds.If anyone on the forum has a use for this, please let me know. Thanks for looking.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 04:26:45 am
content: You might get lucky and find someone who has whatever T&C grinder it came from, but that'll be a long shot. The X/Y positioning slide setup could be handy as well in a drill press without the gangly vertical bit.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 05:08:59 am
content: Quote from: Gregg on January 11, 2019, 09:41:47 pmwell people will always find a use for anything, there are even few people here like to collecting stamps to collect dust. the only question is the price?thats a nice 5-axis equipment btw.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 05:28:49 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on January 12, 2019, 05:08:59 amIf you want it, make me an offer. I was asking what it is called to possibly list it on fleabay. The proceeds from the estate of my friend are all going toward a scholarship fund for graduate students. I would much rather have it go to an EEV blog forum member with minimal hassle than bother with the infamous ebay.As far as stamp collecting goes: My father was an avid stamp collector and had file cabinets full of unused sheets of stamps that he put in the basement where they got damp and glued themselves together and now they aren't even worth face value. Sometimes it is sad how life goes on with or without us.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 10:55:50 am
content: it might be the stupidest hack ever but you can probably just put it on a cheap drill press in your house if you lower the bed enough and mount another vice in the top part.i think you need to put indicator bands on it to use it well though. otherwise it will just be too annoying to use IMO.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 10:59:38 am
content: Quote from: Gregg on January 12, 2019, 05:28:49 amlist it in eevblog buy/sell/wanted section with your asking price, so we have a bit of clue. if i am to put the price, trust me you are going to have pale face (because i have to factored in shipping cost of it)

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 01:49:40 pm
content: Try Steve Summers on Youtube, he will have a use for it, as he does do tool grinding and this will work with his setup.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjrGHSAkAN0ac8aVejwPBvA

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 01:56:26 pm
content: That's the fanciest drill press vise I've ever seen. Are there any markings other than the graduations? The two long square head screws are intended for holding a toolmakers vise with the workpiece. This is intended to let you drill a series of holes at precise locations and angular relationships.The next step up from this is a couple thousand for a rotary table, sine table and spin indexer to mount on a milling machine.Consider drilling a sprayer head where you want several circles of jets with each ring of jets at a different angle from the vertical. That's the sort of task this is meant for.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 02:57:43 pm
content: It looks way too big for my drill press.But there are a lot of things I bet it would be super useful for.Antennas, like making the crucial biconical or discone antenna "cone" holding part with exactly the right angles, properly.Can't 3D print metal except maybe using some kind of lost wax/sand casting process.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 03:35:21 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 12, 2019, 02:57:43 pmSpaceX has been 3D printing metal rocket engine parts for 5 years now. The hardware isn't cheap, but the results are impressive. Stuff that's impossible with other methods.There are companies trying to make versions that are cheap enough for the hobby market, but they aren't there yet. Unless you're a very rich hobbyist.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 03:52:36 pm
content: Maybe someday we will print circuits as needed, molecule by molecule! Wouldn't that be great!

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 08:32:28 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on January 12, 2019, 01:56:26 pmNope, not a drill press vise. This is a grinding fixture for sure. They're called universal grinding fixtures or universal grinding vises. There's a model that was popular back when called a "Uni-Vise" - examples are still available on eBay pretty frequently. This would flex way too much for drilling holes at "precise" locations. (Drilling is not a precision operation by any means even with rigid equipment). The two square head screws are meant to hold whatever you want to mount in the "vise" - this is how they did it way back when to keep things simple and light. If you Google image search "tool and cutter grinder" you'll see plenty of examples of these "screw vises" in use holding workpieces. Way too tall to fit under most drill presses too.Could conceivably have been used for very very light duty milling or drilling work while bolted to the cross slide of a lathe as well.

author: DTJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2019, 03:33:00 am
content: According to the metalworking fellows at rec.crafts.metalworking that hardware is made up from two separate bits of gear (which is obvious once someone points it out).The top part looks like a milling attachment for a Craftsman 12x36 lathe.http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/mill1.jpgThe XY table seems to be a generic unit.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2019, 04:00:05 am
content: My first thought was exactly that. It was when it was shown with both assembled together I thought otherwise and asked if there were any markings. But the photo of the Atlas/Craftsman milling attachment is clear proof.Never underestimate a really good machinist. They can do things mere mortals cannot imagine, much less do.

author: DTJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2019, 06:15:49 am
content: Quote from: rhb on January 16, 2019, 04:00:05 amThe old guys over at rec.crafts.metalworking are a clever bunch with a lot of great help. It's a shame that spam and political crap has just about killed usenet.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2019, 02:23:06 pm
content: Nice catch. Now that I take a second look I can see that there aren't enough joints to be a universal vise too. That double screw workholding had me fixated - but I did mention the possibility it might be used on a lathe cross slide too. It is possible that these pieces were made with the ability to be used together though - just look at the way both pieces mount, it's exactly the same. They also share the same pilot diameter and angle indicator setup. Guess we'll never know on that one unless one of the old-timers has some insight on that too.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2019, 03:50:12 pm
content: I read rec.crafts.metalworking for many years. But the noise level got so high I finally abandoned it. Since then my ISP has dropped usenet access entirely.A look through old Atlas catalogs might reveal if they were intended to be used together. It also might be simply that Atlas used the same tooling for both.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2019, 07:39:25 pm
content: The parts certainly fit together like they were made for each other; I'll have to play with it some more. This is more fun than I had expected; thanks everyone that has responded and I'll post anything else I find.My deceased friend who had owned this and whose estate I am clearing was a very accomplished machinist who made the most delicate scientific instruments. He also had a rather nice machine shop in his garage / shop behind his house. From the tons of documents I have been digging through, he had previously owned an Atlas lathe which he had sold when he upgraded to a much more professional lathe.[Edit:] I looked up the numbers cast into the vice part, 10-502 and the Z axis part, 10-501 and they are for a 10 inch Atlas lathe milling attachment. There are several examples on flea-bay. I don't have the device at the moment, but will look for cast in numbers on the other two parts. This has been a very interesting little rabbit hole.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2019, 11:42:23 pm
content: I do hope you'll post a list of other items to be sold, especially books.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2019, 04:27:33 pm
content: Also, what is the geographical location of the equipment? And the more professional lathe info?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2019, 07:40:12 pm
content: SF Bay Area? Maybe somewhere in the East Bay? (Thats where UC Berkeley is anyway, Berkeley, with a tiny piece of it straddling the Oakland border.)

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2019, 10:57:10 pm
content: Ah. Can't see that location info on mobile. Just shows "Country:" and U.S. flag.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2019, 12:33:57 am
content: He's in the Bay area. We've corresponded about it. But now that it is identified I'd rather see an Atlas owner get it. Especially since I have a Clausing 8520 vertical mill.Asking prices for just the milling attachment on eBay are steep. It's actually almost certainly two things. The milling attachment and a 3 axis drill press table missing the top table. I sent him a link to a picture of what I think the table looks like just in case it's sitting somewhere in the shop. However, it would be easy to make either a reproduction of the factory table or custom versions.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2019, 06:10:48 am
content: For all of those interested, here is the story: My deceased friend Tom worked the last 23 years of his career at UC Berkeley in the Physics Department machine shop making very intricate and detailed devices for research projects conducted by the professors, many of whom are world famous. There is a separate machine shop for student use equipped with machines left from upgrades etc. in the main shop.Tom had accumulated a very nice machine shop in his very large garage. Some years after retirement, Tom’s lifelong smoking habit caught up with him and he could no longer work on his many projects and he decided to donate his lathe, milling machine, drill presses, surface grinder and many precision instruments to the student machine shop. He also set up a scholarship fund for graduate students in physics at UC Berkeley. His will states that most of Tom’s assets go to the scholarship fund in his name.It took too long for UC to get Tom’s machinery moved, which didn’t please Tom with his health dwindling but when the machinery mover offered him a pittance for all of his other stuff, Tom was pissed and held back a lot of tooling and other items that he may have given UC under better circumstances. He asked me to get what I could for what was left to add to his legacy scholarship fund.Tom and I shared the same philosophy that the future of the world is in the hands of the smart kids and they should be encouraged, challenged and appreciated rather than becoming victim of the current trend of bringing everyone down to the lowest common denominator.If offered the job as executor of someone’s estate, my advice is to avoid it if you can. Dying in the US is expensive and complicated. Too many lawyers that manage to get laws passed just to ensure their livelihood and everybody wants a piece of whatever remains.

author: DTJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2019, 06:28:32 am
content: Quote from: Gregg on January 18, 2019, 06:10:48 amThat's sage advice!Sounds like your friend was a good guy.