Has Apple solved the iPhone-to-PC file transfer problem? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 08:53:09 am
content: Members of my family are migrating from Android to Apple phones and encouraging me to follow suit. One of my biggest problems with iOS is that it required iTunes to transfer files to/from a PC, instead of connecting via a cable and appearing as a mass storage device. I use my phone to take a lot of photos documenting various technical things and the idea of requiring some special software to transfer the images is simply ridiculous.Has Apple caught up to the real world yet? Or do they still insist on making their devices needlessly difficult to use?

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 09:13:04 am
content: As far as I know, the iPhone still does it the old stupid way even on the newest models.However, there is a PC program calledEaseUS MobiMoverthat makes it very easy.I installed this for family members that have the need to transfer files from the iPhone and it works well.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 09:31:30 am
content: Lol, apple misinformationPlug the Iphone/Ipad into a computer and all the photos/videos taken by the phones camera appear as a mounted filesystem just like a camera memory card.Putting content onto the device... not so easy. Getting content off that you put on... very hard.But using photos taken by the camera, stupid easy and standards compatible (has always been this way).

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 10:25:53 am
content: So photos come off easily, but if I want to upload PDF spec sheets or other files the same drag and drop method doesn't work? WTH?!?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 11:38:54 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on December 16, 2022, 10:25:53 amhttps://support.apple.com/en-au/guide/iphone/iphf2d851b9/iosLots of it assumed the content will arrive onto the device from web/app and not you pushing it from a desktop filesystem. Download and store/organsie local copies of PDFs from the web? trivial. Copy them from a desktop file system.. you'll want some app for that.The first party tools will not show you a filesystem you can just drop stuff into, each of the categories of file types is a database with linked images/metadata etc. The first party iOS <> desktop connection is a sync, not a fileshare.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 01:48:07 pm
content: I can transfer from the Iphone with the cable but not transfer to the Iphone, That has to go thru the internet one way or another like icloud, email, itune etc...But that is not a problem for Apple to fix. Apple considers it as a feature not a problem.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 02:24:40 pm
content: I did not know iPhones had such limited connectivity for transferring files. I maintain my collection of audio files on my PC and then upload them to my Android phone as if it was just another USB mass storage device. Sometimes I use my phone as a USB flash drive to transfer files between PCs.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 04:53:10 pm
content: just use something like dropbox on the iphone and on the pc and you can transfert almost all you want.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 05:28:59 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on December 16, 2022, 02:24:40 pmIt's Apple policy to make the transfer via the internet. There are many ways to do it but all involve the internet.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 05:44:20 pm
content: Which is fatal, because what if you don't have Internet access? Apparently folks in Cupertino cannot fathom places that don't have 5G or WiFi at gigabit speeds for free, but many places that I go have limited or no access at all.I want to consider Apple products but this is an absolute deal killer. It needs to be possible to function locally without the Internet.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 06:02:54 pm
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on December 16, 2022, 04:53:10 pmQuote from: BeBuLamar on December 16, 2022, 05:28:59 pmthe bad thing is a lot of data usage if you are transferring like videos. some months ago i cant use OTG drive on my 4-5yrs old samsung hp anymore due to rotten usb connector. so now i'm relying on google drive to transfer data in and out, without plugging any drive or cable, thats a good thing. but only from home network where its unlimited usage. outside, using limited mobile network, i have to be careful on what files i need to transfer.

author: antenna
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 06:14:00 pm
content: I have android, but I wonder if you can do something similar with iPhones. I used windows IIS to set up a local FTP server on my PC and set a specific folder on my hard drive for FTP use and I use CX Explorer (as it remembers the IP and PC password) to access the FTP folder from my phone. I wonder if there is a similar app for apple devices that manages FTP connections. Is there a version of CX Explorer or something similar for iPhones that can access a local FTP? It is really nice having a specific folder on my PC that all the wireless devices (on my home wifi only) can access (if they have the pw). I think it is faster than using a USB cable too.Edit: A search suggests "FE File Explorer" can do that on iphones. So there is a neat solution right there for everyone. Make FTP server and run FE Explorer to access it! And it works without internet, all you need is a router.Edit 2: And remember to set a static IP so you don't have to keep reentering the FTP info. If suddenly your FTP connection quits working, it is most likely a)your computer IP changed so the FTP address also changed (make it static), b) you have your VPN on at the client or host (turn it off while you use the ftp connection to transfer files) or c)your firewall settings are wrong. Those three issues caused me many hours of frustration figuring it out on my own.Edit 3: And here is a link that does a great job explaining how to set up the FTP server. If you only want it on your home network and not accessible through the internet, skip the port forwarding part at the end.https://www.online-tech-tips.com/computer-tips/setup-ftp-server-in-windows-iis/

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 06:35:55 pm
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on December 16, 2022, 04:53:10 pmOften the reason I want to transfer files is to fix a system which lacks connectivity. I just faced this situation last night with a network card which was not operating in a PC because of what I suspect is a PCIe hardware compatibility problem.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 06:37:24 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on December 16, 2022, 06:02:54 pmThat would be a problem for me as well. Just the total size of my audio collection on my phone is larger than the monthly transfer cap on my phone.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 07:03:05 pm
content: Wouldn't you use WiFi for that? 99% of the time when I'm moving something onto my iPhone I'm at home so it's connected to the WiFi. I have not really had any issues, for the way I use my phone the limitations have not been much of an obstacle. I have other devices to use for looking at datasheets and such.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 07:47:19 pm
content: There are several apps available for iPhone that do the job. I have used them in the past to help the spouse get stuff off of her iPhone. Can't recommend the best current app because this is a once in a while problem for me.The real question is why you need to move off of a system you are comfortable with. The iPhones do some things better than Android and visa versa. You can talk, text and do all the social media things that fascinate most iPhone users from your Android. Why switch? Unless one of the areas of iPhone superiority is a critical function for you there doesn't seem to be any reason.(Actually one reason will be true. If you are the family IT person, they will benefit from you becoming familiar with the phone they are using. The benefit to you is whatever favor you gain from being able to help them well.)

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 08:17:27 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 16, 2022, 07:47:19 pmno! i'm not the brightest IT guy in this world, but among the brightest around families and friends. i wont touch iphone or mac with barge pole in hope they follow suits. ie discouraging them, so:1) by using the system i'm familiar (android) i can help them. i have no time to learn new system just for the sake of entertaining them. too much people asking help because i know everything sometime i dont have enough time for, its becoming a burden.2) they get rid of crippled system that i heard of from iphone owner (cannot connect bluetooth to android phones and this thread's topic, no chance to try all the androids app etc)if somehow they all move to iphone and me left as a single android owner on this planet, i will see how it goes, if someone can educate me how to do things in android in iphone, ie more freedom, and if someone can demonstrate their proficiency in the system inside out (IT grade proficiency) than i'm willing to move along. but so far, the iphone/mac owner that i've met only know how to spit security buzzword out of it without having clue even one step deeper. its probably true, but at a cost of crippling (reduced) the freedom.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 08:59:46 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 16, 2022, 07:47:19 pmA significant reason is iMessage, which I wish was an open standard but it isn't. It is superior to SMS and works really well, I can text with my friends in Canada at no cost as it uses data just like everything else. International texting is expensive still, for mostly stupid reasons.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 09:11:38 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on December 16, 2022, 08:17:27 pmI had exactly the opposite experience. For years my mom had an Android phone and I always had to fumble my way through helping her, and the same with her Windows PC. A couple years ago she got an iPhone and I've rarely had to touch it since then, it just works. I set her up on a Linux laptop a few years ago because she didn't have the budget for a Mac and it has worked well. My employer issued laptop is a Macbook, the only modern Mac I've ever spent any real time using and while I have complaints about the keyboard and lack of ports, the operating system and overall fit & finish is very nice.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 09:13:36 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on December 16, 2022, 05:44:20 pmIt's a very, very long time since I have plugged a cable into my iPhone to transfer data. Icanplug the cable in, and then if I do it works best to use iTunes on the desktop to transfer or sync music or videos. Photos just mount as if the phone is a USB drive and you can copy them that way.But I don't do this. I use iCloud and wireless connectivity because it is much more convenient. iCloud photos just show up on my desktop as a shared folder, and any photo I take with the phone will just appear there after a minute or two.For office documents and the like I use Microsoft apps like OneDrive. For instance I can simply take a photo of a document, OCR it, and have it appear as a Word document on my PC.For my use cases, everything is so convenient wirelessly that I don't ever think about plugging in a cable.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 09:25:56 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on December 16, 2022, 02:24:40 pmDid you read the apple support link or do any research yourself? Plug in iPhone, select the audio files, drag them onto the device that shows up (as a "device" but not as a browsable file system).It is relatively easy as long as you don't insist on seeing a filesystem that you can read and write to/from. That comes from the early days where apple got the music (and movie) industry on board by preventing people using the portable devices for sharing those files. So it is weird how they treat different file types so differently (can drag music, cant drag a PDF) but in the end if you setup as a sync then it all just works and files appear in each direction, be that wired or wireless.Quote from: IDEngineer on December 16, 2022, 05:44:20 pmStop listening to the uninformed! Transfer can be by cabe all you want. What it won't be (unless you use some 3rd party software) is exposing a read/write file system.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 10:03:36 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on December 16, 2022, 09:25:56 pmThere is actually, a "Files" app on iOS that lets you browse various file systems both local to the phone and in the cloud, and this can be used to upload/download documents.The phone does readily have the ability to store PDF documents and let you read them with the reader app, or to store Word or Excel documents and let you view/edit them with Office apps.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 10:30:57 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 16, 2022, 10:03:36 pmFrom the iOS user point of view it exposes a file access application, but it does not expose a filesystem to a desktop or remote host. This all comes back to the (historic) putting of files into iOS also updates databases and adds a whole bunch of non-filesystem content so that the mobile device isn't performing a search of the file system every time you want to browse/open some file type, it already has the complete and well organised list ready to go. That only works because people cant just drop random files into random places without the extra content/updates. Everything has to be stored into the device through that extra step, it is transparent in the first party apps, it just works.The OP is clearly asking for how to make the mobile device present a (fairly complete) read/write filesystem to browse and upload/download from. That does not exist on iOS without some intermediate app.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 10:35:40 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 16, 2022, 10:03:36 pmJust double checked that on a current version iOS device....nope, "files" does not browse all the content of the device, cant see any of the PDFs in books, photos imported or taken, or music filesSo yeah, this is why people get confused when there is so much dis-information.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 10:56:01 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on December 16, 2022, 09:25:56 pmHow do you control where the files go if you have to just blindly drop them onto the device? I would want images to go to a different place than PDF spec sheets, which would certainly be different than audio files, etc.I like to keep frequently referenced spec sheets as PDF files on my phone. Those don't belong in the same place as music, photos, videos, etc. How do I control that? Do you just treat it like a mass storage device with a single, root directory where everything just mixes and mashes together with no organization?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 11:11:56 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 16, 2022, 09:11:38 pmYou are half demonstrating my point. You are fortunate, your mother can do what she wants to do on the iPhone. My spouse roughly twice a month runs into something she can't figure out. But you did experience the difficulty of working out problems on a system that isn't native for you.I do agree that Apple does what it does do very well. But in many cases how to do it isn't obvious if you haven't been using it for years. Maybe my mind is different than the majority of people. It often isn't obvious to me, though I get along well in Android, Windows and Linux. I end up Googling "How do you do X on iPhone". Then sorting through the options (which are often model specific). That doesn't mean that the Apple way is wrong, just means that it isn't the magic answer to everything.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 11:54:56 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on December 16, 2022, 10:56:01 pmThrow out the idea of a single/shared/underlying filesystem or you will never get there. If you want to listen to music, why care how and where it is stored? You put it into the device and it appears in the database of music that can be sorted by artist/album/year/etc and text searched, what do you get by adding a filesystem that you can browse?... easily copying the music back off which as above is intentionally made very difficult on these devices.iOS has a bunch of apps, they each store data in their own "containers" for dataApple (for ease of use and historic performance/compatibility/security/licensing reasons) will only let you put certain file types in each of their first party apps, they dont have an image viewer app that does PDFs and photos forreasonsthats two different first party apple apps. Or stuffing it all into the "files" and then opening them out to other apps.You can use various apps that will let you store random globs of stuff in a filesystem like directory/folder structure... but those files will not be easily viewed/shared/listened/seen by other appsIt keeps coming back to your desire for seeing the files stored in the way you want, it won't do thatFULL STOP END OF STORY. But to say the larger use case is impossible is not true, you just have to let the device handle storing files within the app that they are going to be used with.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 12:23:06 am
content: Quote from: Someone on December 16, 2022, 11:54:56 pmwe dont need root access, we understand that for security reason, but at least give us user root where we can store and sort our files in our own created and named folders. pictures in many categories/folders. same as audio genres/singers, same as videos etc etc... the one thing i will search first in a phone is "File Explorer" if it has it and shows some folder structures (wherever that might be) where we can store/copy/move file in and out, then its good enough...

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 12:34:23 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on December 17, 2022, 12:23:06 amThat has usability/compatibility/performance issues. We get it, some people want that and will accept the tradeoff. Apple don't offer a choice on that for their first party apps and went all in on managed storage from the start.It is possible to get half way there by using a file app to hold your concept of a filesystem, but then lose out on the file integration with the file handling apps. The choice is there, some people do it:https://www.reddit.com/r/ios/comments/c73y7e/how_to_play_music_from_the_files_app_in_the_music/It is not impossible, but it is pretty much unsupported by the first party apps.P.S. you haven't motivated what is better by navigating music through a filesystem. That only has one sort dimension (unless you want to make some mess with symlinks) which is fixed and cannot be viewed in other orderings. Youcanfind music through a file system, but I cant see how that is a better experience than finding it through a database listing.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 01:04:53 am
content: I have tried to get used to the Apple way of working with files but gave up (three times over the years). It is interesting to see they are still sticking to their ancient DRM-way to keep their file system access locked to the desktop world. So, for me it is still a pass.Just like the OP, I use the phone extensively for documentation and sometimes have to use the more advanced GUI of a file system browser to organize files directly on the phone. To me Apple's philosophy would be more suitable if I used the phone as a simple recipient of content from a desktop or the internet, but trying to keep any sort of organization when I am generating content on the phone (photos, videos, scans) or otherwise use it to store data (spreadsheets, PDFs, other documents) to be carried with me makes the option of hiding the filesystem a very uninteresting limitation.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 01:21:05 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 17, 2022, 01:04:53 amwant to collect files into folders? (including from the web, or the built in camera) thats been included for 5 years now:https://www.addictivetips.com/ios/save-photos-to-the-files-app-ios-11/complete with a drag and drop interface when connected to a desktop:https://support.apple.com/en-au/HT210598It is there, but all we hear is that no no no impossible cannot be done. Why do people have this bizarre fixation on apple?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 01:26:01 am
content: I don't *like* the lack of an exposed file system, but in practice I just haven't really found it to be an issue. I throw the media I want on my phone and it just works. It's not a PC, it's a phone, I don't tinker with it, I just use it, and it does what I need it to do. I have other devices that cater to my desires for more general purpose computing.Photos and video clips show up in the photos app. Music shows up in the music app, podcasts show up in the podcast app. PDF's show up in the browser. I don't care how the files are stored internally.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 03:07:13 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on December 16, 2022, 10:56:01 pmOf course you don't. You put them in your document library in a suitable collection. Maybe in the PDFs collection, or maybe in a new collection of your choice. See screenshot below. (I don't actually store much stuff on my phone because my eyes don't get on well with the small screen, but I'm sure that's not a problem for youngsters with sharp eyesight)It's important to think of an iPhone as an information store, not as a file system.Quote from: rsjsouza on December 17, 2022, 01:04:53 amThe filesystem is hidden. The ability to organize things is not. If you were to go centuries into the future (think "Star Trek") and talked about file systems, people would give you a funny look and think what an antiquated notion

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 03:46:10 am
content: Great, it has separate directories for different things. But an earlier post said you couldn't see that much detail when it is connected to a PC. So how do you tell the phone where to store any given file, if the directory structure is opaque?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 03:58:56 am
content: I am with Someone, I don't see a compelling need to access music files through a file system. The apps that play music do well enough sorting that by genre, artist, album and whatever and you also get playlists to put things together.pdfs are a different story. Same for spreadsheets, presentations and schedules. There are real reasons to store those in different ways. Schematics, data sheets and test reports for example in one location. Research data, rough drafts, status reports and thesis are all things that are very similar data types to those schematics and data sheets and test reports, but deserve their own logical storage area. Sure you can hide the file system behind a database front end, but it makes ad hoc reorganization and adding new features tough for the end user and possibly tough even for the developer.I am not convinced that the idea of a file system will ever go away, though the implementations will change many times. Between just two operating systems, Linux and Windows we have at least a half a dozen in the last few decades.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 04:34:51 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on December 17, 2022, 03:46:10 amIts not opaque except at the interface to/from a desktop host and the iwhatever device. Each side will let you organise assorted files into assorted and nested folders, and it can transfer back and forth between the two maintaining the structure. But you won't see the structure of the "other" device at any time and it is mostly an all in thing with syncing the two structures (not going in and picking out a single file here or there).The very specific combination of specific files, cable connected, and seeing the filesystem in the native format. That is not possible without going to some 3rd party solution (but still possible ffs).You dont seem to be following the links that show exactly the capabilities and their shortcomings, or doing any research/checking. But hey, do keep repeating all the dis-information you think about iOS/apple. Those ignorant others in the room will no doubt parrot it on and this stupid situation will continue ad nauseam.Come with a crap attitude and get crap attitude in return.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 04:59:36 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on December 17, 2022, 03:46:10 amWell, you prompted me to plug a cable into my phone, which I not done in recent memory, just to see how it works. And honestly, it's not the best way to go. It is far more convenient to use wireless connections and the cloud.For instance, on iCloud Drive on my PC I created a new folder called PDFs and dropped a PDF file into it. I then went to my phone and opened the same folder, which already contained the PDF, and opened it. I was immediately reading the PDF on my phone.There is just no reason for me to think about using a cable any more.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 05:07:08 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 17, 2022, 03:58:56 amAnd you can today organize these into different collections, or folders, or sub-folders on your phone. Maybe call it a "filing system" rather than a "file system"?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 05:57:33 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 17, 2022, 05:07:08 amAs long as someone outside the Apple world can see them I don't care what they are called, although having a common language helps. Like English on this forum. I have not had overmuch difficulty helping the wife pull files off of her phone to view on a larger screen or print but clearly there is a barrier there that is causing difficulty, and as described above, much of it is intentional.There is benefit to Apple's closed architecture. Compatibility is much better set up. But there is also benefit to the open architecture of Linux or early Windows. Lots of people get to play. Different ideas and different modes of interaction get developed and tried. MS seems to envy Apple's position though and is trying to gradually close the door.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 04:08:55 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on December 17, 2022, 01:21:05 amicloud drive? its one of the option! for sure. but local storage is another old good and proven usefull option, why remove? and not everybody around here can afford the latest iOS, some of my family only can afford 2nd hand older iOS one.Quote from: IanB on December 17, 2022, 03:07:13 ami would like to see in your attachment, when we click PDF, there will be sub folders... "electronics", "head office circulates", "patents", "thesis" etc.... and if there is "Pictures" tab, under there will be "whatsapps", "telegram", "promotion", "family", "vacations" etc, and under "vacations" there will be "2022", "2021","2020" etc. so finding exact document we want to search will be blazing fast instead of looking for it under a large pool of useless whatapps images download, its like finding a tiny spec on a large sand. Star Trek is fine, because i just say "open vacation 2022" or say "open promotion pictures" or "create a "promotion folder for me please" and everything is done, if not... then i would not like to live in those age.Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 17, 2022, 05:57:33 amthats probably explained why MS has become more and more sux on each newer version. luckily i have 3rd party "XYplorer" if not because of that, i probably still in WinXP today.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 04:09:19 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on December 17, 2022, 01:21:05 amWell, that is fine and dandy, but not to a Windows or Linux desktop but instead to/fro an internet service (at least the example in the article shows an iCloud service). Apple talks to Apple in a much better way than with anybody else's. So, if that is the restriction it is still a no for me.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 10:07:23 pm
content: Ha ha ha, so we've flushed out the irrational haters who are pushing misinformation ahead of anything else.Quote from: Mechatrommer on December 17, 2022, 04:08:55 pm5 years in the os! supporting devices released back in 2013. That first party "files" app.... is local to the device and does not require cloud anything.Quote from: rsjsouza on December 17, 2022, 04:09:19 pmSo you've quoted both the links, in which the second goes on to explain (concisely and plainly) the several choices supported for transferring files including on windows..... but you seem intent on looking the other way and shouting from the hills that it does not exist. Time to label that what it is, an irrational fanboy hating on the alternatives.Linux, yes there is no first party wired connection, but again and again and again and again there are 3rd party options which do what you are asking for!

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 12:29:16 am
content: Quote from: Someone on December 17, 2022, 10:07:23 pmQuoteif nobody, even here cant demo that iphone can do what an android can, then i guess its a legitimate reason to "hate" it, accept the fact its a limitation of some functionality we wish for. just say we cant, end of story and we all can go back to whatever we doing. you all star trek generation can laugh at us all you like

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 12:48:30 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on December 18, 2022, 12:29:16 amOP asked for a way to manually organise files, that is the process. There is a step to move the file from where it is created to the organised storage.....BOLDparts are written from the point of view of a native iOS user, who would question why to move a photo from the perfectly good photo storage database over to another container. Its a foreign concept to that sort of user.Your claims were that a) manual local storage couldn't be done, b) it was only on recent OS releases, and c) that required a modern deviceNone of that is true, so what are you trying to complain about now? It can be done but requires a manual step?Of course it requires a manual step:take photo, already stored in default container (same as on a camera)user can then move it to some other locationThe OP can do this, but as we keep saying its only because of their fixed viewpoint of how things should be done that they believe this is superior (still none of you have explained this with examples of how it works better). To a different user who doesnt organise things in folders looking across from the other side that is equally as "tricky" or confusing compared to their native methods (they might use tags/metadata to group things for context later rather than fixed single dimension sorting of folders).Why perpetuate the hate? Each side sees their method as easier/preferred. The platform in question supports either, and some other options too. But you seem to spend some inordinate amount of effort to spread misinformation rather than helping people understand the options and how they work.... after your edit.. You make incorrect and misleading claims, no effort to see if what you claim can not be done. That is the problem here. Despite links out disputing your nonsense you keep coming back for some reason with "more" of the same rubbish. Why?

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 12:58:42 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on December 16, 2022, 08:53:09 amI plug my iDevice into my Linux machine and have access to all the apps natively using libimobiledevice. I also use Goodreader to store my ~80G document library and access that either wirelessly or via cable. My favourite second method is a Sandisk iXpand flash drive.I got my first iDevice in 2012 and it took me a while to adjust to their way of doing things, but I haven't hit a "frustration" point for 8 or so years. It does what I want.Reading this thread there's a lot of "strong opinions", but as is typical on the 'net they're all from people with NFI or no experience living with these devices. Use what works for you. If you don't want to learn to use an Apple device, stick with what you have. If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 03:48:46 am
content: OK, to concretely answer this question I just connected my son's brand new iPhone 14 Pro Max to my laptop. Windows Explorer can see it, knows it's an "Apple iPhone", and displays the contents of the DCIM directory area. Tried to copy a file from the laptop to the iPhone... and it failed silently. 100% unsuccessful with no error messages. My son looked around on the phone to see if the file actually did copy over, but it was absent. We tried several directories from DCIM on down, and nothing worked.Then I realized I didn't try copying from the phone back to the laptop, so we reconnected them. The iPhone asked for permission to give the laptop access (like the first time), my son granted it in exactly the same way, and... nothing. We can see "Internal Storage" but nothing more is visible, including DCIM! Apparently you get one free connection. We tried and tried, changed the connection sequence, etc. but now cannot see anything but the top-level directory "Internal Storage" without any visible contents.I can't explain why we only got one shot at the next directory level, and so I cannot try copying from iPhone to laptop. But I can confirm that it is NOT possible to copy from the laptop to the iPhone. And this isn't some old version of iPhone or iOS. This is the latest and greatest Apple offers.Just so we're clear: I do not hate Apple and actually respect their products. I just wish they were compatible with the rest of the world. If they were, I'd probably own some of their stuff.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 04:19:51 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on December 18, 2022, 03:48:46 amIndeed. The phone has to protect itself so it can work reliably. If it allowed you to copy random stuff onto it over a USB cable, then it would be vulnerable.There are appropriate ways to copy things onto an iPhone, and if you use the appropriate ways then music, photos, books, office documents and other things can all be copied across smoothly.But it doesn't matter. If you want to choose another kind of phone, we really are not upset. The world is big enough for different kinds of device to exist and people may have different preferences.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 04:25:42 am
content: People said I should run the experiment, with strong hints that it would work. I did so, and reported the result. I still don't care much either way, I just wish equipment was designed to be compatible for the ease of end users.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 04:52:32 am
content: Well, that's up to you. Here's an experiment I did. I have an Excel document on my Windows PC. It looks like the first attachment. I opened it in Excel on my phone, and it looks like the second attachment. I didn't have to do anything more than browse to it using the Office app on my phone and open it. This is the modern way of doing things. I am happy with this. It meets my needs and expectations. If it doesn't meet yours, then you have to do things the way that you feel happy with.(And I got the screen grab from the phone back onto my computer just by doing a screen capture on the phone and saving it directly to the Pictures folder on my PC.)

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 04:59:45 am
content: That's how it works between my PC/laptop and Android phone. Smooth, seamless, painless.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 05:11:13 am
content: I believe there is only one answer here, user ignores instructions and complains it is somehow everyone else's fault.....

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 06:08:05 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on December 18, 2022, 03:48:46 amI believe you have to turn the phone on and unlock it, then connect the computer cable. Not just connect the cable. My iPhone 5 made DCIM picture folder accessible with just plugging the cable, but the new iPhone 13 does not work that way anymore and requires unlocking it first.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 06:32:25 am
content: iirc samsung android also do the same thing. it has special SW that i need to install to make it readable/writable directly to/from PC through USB as mass storage, the hassle of installing that specialized SW (and slower throughput iirc) made me switch to OTG only... less hassle. i dont know if it has changed today, it was very long time ago.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 08:11:13 am
content: Anyone knows how to copy ringtones saved on a (Linux) pc, to an iphone 12 mini?I bought one a year ago and it's a big disappointment. If I knew it was so locked down,I wouldn't have bought it.

author: bw2341
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 06:52:09 pm
content: I haven't tried it myself but it looks like GarageBand can both import from Files and set a ringtone.It looks like the design philosophy of iOS is that all apps are responsible for their own data. The Files app is intended to manipulate files in a more generic way. However, app developers have to design their app to interact with Files in order to use it.In your case, Apple themselves did not create a way for Settings to pick a sound file from Files when choosing a ringtone. This is why an app such as GarageBand is needed.As for getting files into the iDevice, these are the ones I know of:Free:Set up a local webserver:From Safari you can download files and they will appear in Files in the Downloads directory. I have tested this myself.Set up a local Samba server:I don't use Linux regularly but I just tested this in Files on iOS 15 over Windows file sharing.Paid:Apple Lightning to USB 3 Camera Adapterhttps://www.apple.com/ca/shop/product/MK0W2AM/A/lightning-to-usb-3-camera-adapterI have the simpler USB 2 version which I do not recommend. You can browse and copy files from a USB Mass Storage device or a USB PTP (Picture Transfer Protocol) camera.iCloudI have not tried it.There are probably more methods, services or apps that may work that I am not aware of.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 07:14:31 pm
content: You can use iTunes on the desktop to add new ringtones to an iPhone. You can Google for the details. The ringtone has to be in the right format (AAC) and has to be the right length (less than 40 seconds). iTunes can change the encoding for you, but you need to use some other app to edit the length if it is too long.If you are on Linux, you can apparently install the Windows version of iTunes using Wine. Again, Google for details.

author: bw2341
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 07:43:39 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on December 18, 2022, 03:48:46 amI find this usage very unreliable on my iDevices. I have an iPhone 6 Plus (iOS 12) that I regularly connect to a Windows 10 computer that is not connected to the Internet. It never works on the first try! It reliably connects on the second try. Crazy.While it connects via USB PTP, it seems to trigger Internet connected Windows machines to download some drivers. I just tried an iPhone 7 Plus (iOS 15) and it seemed to work correctly on the first try. Give it maybe 10 or 20 seconds before trying to browse.If you do manage to make it work, you will see a DCIM directory with subdirectories like a typical digital camera. Even this seems unreliable. I occasionally backup the whole Camera Roll by copying all the directories in DCIM. It sometimes fails before completion.Do NOT move a file (Cut and Paste) or delete a file on the iPhone unless you are absolutely sure you want it gone forever. It will be deleted correctly but you can't put anything onto the iPhone via USB PTP. If you do it by mistake, reimporting via other methods will probably make you jump though hoops if you want it appear in the original position on the Camera Roll.The native file format for photos is HEIC instead of JPG. This has poorer support outside the Apple ecosystem and is another headache to deal with. There is a setting in Camera to use JPG natively, or a setting in Photos to convert on the fly when copying via USB.

author: bw2341
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 08:01:50 pm
content: I forgot to mention that in Windows Explorer, dragging a file between drive letters is a file Copy operation. Dragging from one folder to another on the same drive is a Move operation.However, the iPhone does not have a drive letter in Windows Explorer since it is using USB PTP. Therefore, dragging from an iPhone folder to another folder is considered a Move operation by Windows Explorer so it is very easy to do by accident.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 08:37:11 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 18, 2022, 04:52:32 amWait, you can charge NiMH AA Eneloops at >1C? That's good to know. I've always been scared to go past 0.2C on those.And yeah, not having a file system sucks. Someone who tells you that you don't need a file system is really telling you, "I want to own your data. All of it. Forever. Imightlet you move it off of my closed platform, and then again, I might not."

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 10:52:10 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on December 18, 2022, 08:37:11 pmNote, the test was charging a 1900 mAh cell at 1600 mA, therefore 0.85C. I tried charging at 1C (2000 mA) using a bench power supply, but I did not like the result. The cell could not absorb the charge at that rate and started gassing out the vent. So I would recommend keeping charge rates to 0.5C or below. Even though the datasheet shows a 1C charge rate, I think that is very aggressive. Charging an AA Eneloop at 1000 mA works fine on a good charger.Quote from: KE5FX on December 18, 2022, 08:37:11 pmReally, if you accept the modern approach of cloud storage, there are several advantages:1. Your data is safe if you lose your phone or break it2. Your data is in a filesystem accessible from anywhere and always synchronized3. You can move things on and off the phone wirelessly4. You can maximize phone capacity by deleting the local copy of infrequently used documents and apps5. You can edit documents stored on your phone using your full size PC monitor and keyboardI maximize the potential of this using both OneDrive and iCloud. Using OneDrive all the important folders on my desktop are shared to my phone for ready access. And I really like using the phone as a scanner to capture documents.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 11:30:55 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 18, 2022, 10:52:10 pmI see, thanks. The app manual for the Energizer NiMHs I usually use suggests 0.1C, and I've always felt vaguely guilty about cranking the supply up to 0.2C. Which is why your graph example caught my eye.QuoteAnd then Elon Musk buys your cloud provider, and that social media post you made last month calling him a big poopyhead comes to his attention somehow, and suddenly the debate over who owns and maintains the file system becomes a lot less academic....But yeah, using multiple providers goes a long way toward mitigating that risk.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 11:38:13 pm
content: Relying on "the cloud" definitely has advantages, no question about that. Most of them are convenience but that's definitely worth something.However, it comes at a price.If your data is "out there on the Internet" and you don't have Internet access, then what? The easy answer is "I'll keep a copy on my local storage for offline work". That works fine if you're the only one accessing the cloud storage. But what if you're a member of a team? If you keep a local copy to work offline, what happens if someone else edits the file and then you come back to upload it? Who wins? Does this mean everyone must now use a formal revisioning system? Again, not fatal, but things to consider.However, the biggest problem with "the cloud" is legal. Who owns your data? Who has legal access to it? Most importantly, what privacy expectations are realistic? Court cases (at least in the USA) have established that if you upload files to remote storage managed by a separate company, you have waived any expectation of privacy. It's like discussing a sensitive topic in a public place... you may think you're keeping your voice down but by being in public, you know or should have known that your conversation could be overheard.There is a very good reason attorney firms still store their files on servers THEY own, in space THEY rent or own, managed by people THEY hire. The lawyers know the law and they know that to have a legal expectation of privacy they must own the equipment, control its location, and directly manage the people working on that equipment (even if they're consultants). I do a LOT of patent work and patent attorneys still have in-office racks of servers for exactly this reason. I'm thankfully ignorant of how criminal defense attorneys manage their data but since the laws don't discriminate based on the type of data I suspect they do exactly the same thing.Maybe nothing you're working on is that sensitive. Everyone has to make that determination for themselves. But attorneys do not want to be found negligent about protecting the privacy rights of their, and their clients', files and data. So they spend the money. Each of us must consider our own situation and make our own decision, but for legal questions like this it's a good idea to watch what attorneys do with their own stuff.

author: bw2341
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 12:53:04 am
content: I forgot to describe a possible workflow in case you need to move to an iPhone to keep the peace with your family.From Photos, it is easy to select a bunch of photos from the Camera Roll. When you tap the share sheet icon, Save to Files is available which will let you browse and save to an SMB share (Windows File Sharing) or a USB mass storage device (via the Apple Lightning to USB 3 Camera Adapter). I've just tested this workflow myself.This works in reverse as well. By browsing external sources in Files, you can select multiple images and Save Image which will put the photos on the Camera Roll.However, for PDF documents, the built in tools are poor. The viewer in Files has minimal features. Books is mainly a storefront for Apple Books and only seems to add bookmarking as feature. Books can't browse Files directly and I was only able to send one PDF at a time from Files. Useless.Many people are productive on iPhones and iPads but it does require dedication. You will need to explore the productivity apps available for your field of work to see if you can find a workflow that will work for you.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 04:30:57 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 18, 2022, 07:14:31 pmAnother option : I run iTunes on a Windows VM (on Linux, on my MacBook Pro). I loved WINE (and contributed to it occasionally) but once virtualization became commodity it just lost its shine.I'm one of those oddities that use Apple devices without any iCloud. Everything is managed locally by cable or local network. Nothing gets in my way and I can make them do everything I want them to do. I probably make life harder for myself, but then when things go wrnog I also know how to fix them.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 12:33:50 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on December 16, 2022, 08:53:09 amIs this the only reason you're considering changing? Peer pressure?It seems like by changing over to a new platform, you're introducing issues for yourself that currently don't exist. Why fix what's not broken?

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 01:33:50 am
content: I understand and agree with your point of view.This isn't exactly peer pressure. My son, who is pursuing his EE degree at CalPoly, benefits from the Apple ecosystem because the systems there are Apple-centric. The workflow of receiving and submitting assignments, etc. is just more native with (for example) an iPad. That then integrates better with an iPhone, so the last time his (then Android) phone retired itselfhe replaced it with an iPhone. Next, my wife's phone decided it wanted to retire and my son - who does maintain a balanced view of the world - explained the pros and cons of Apple vs. Android to her. She decided to go with an iPhone.That leaves me as the last holdout in the family. No, I don't have any problems I'm trying to solve and I'm perfectly comfortable being the odd man out with an Android that works just fine for me and my workflow. But the day will come when I need to replace my phone, and as others in this thread have noted there is value in having a single standard within an organization (even when that organization is a family).Apparently I'm the only one in the family who uses their phone the way I do. As mentioned, I use it to take photos and videos of in-the-field operations which I then often need to transfer to my laptop for various reasons. I also transfer documentation such as PDF's and .DOC's to/from the phone (hey, I'm already carrying it, why not use it as a mass storage device?). Sometimes I can wait until I'm in cell range, but quite often I'm on a boat or ship or aircraft when I need to manipulate those files and I cannot rely on "the cloud" for connectivity between two devices that I'm literally holding in my hands right in front of me. Two devices that could, and should be able to, connect with a simple USB cable for totally autonomous operation.Whether or not I move to an iPhone, as an Engineer it frustrates me no end that Apple hasn't figure out how incredibly inconvenient this artificial barrier is to folks who work outside a downtown core. Our house is on a lake, and we don't get very good reception there outdoors beyond the range of our picocell amplifier. These are homes that sell for seven digit sums yet the best of the two available wired ISP's yields 15Mbps down / 1.5Mbps up (I'm using that connection right now) and none of the wireless providers have decent signal strength for portable devices. Apple's entirely arbitrary choice to artificially handicap their products makes them a poor choice in this region of million dollar properties mostly populated by what I presume would be very juicy members of their target customer base.I guess I shouldn't be surprised, though, since it's taking the European Union to force Apple to use the industry standard connector on their devices. Seriously, Apple... you make great products. I admire almost everything you do. WTF is with making your stuff difficult to interact with industry standards? They're called "standards" for a reason.Anyway, I'm just looking toward the future when I'll need one or more new devices. There's lots of value in having a common standard within the family. Just yesterday my son shared a high-res photo via iMessage and my wife got full resolution while I got a downsampled, pixelated substitute. Things like that make me WANT to use Apple, but then I need to transfer some files to my laptop and remember "You can't do this with Apple". Hence this thread, I was hoping Apple had fixed this, but so far our family's experiments have been failures thanks to Apple's continued attitude.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 02:18:58 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on December 21, 2022, 01:33:50 amYou can and I do, running MacOS, Windows or Linux without resorting to Wireless, Bluetooth or "Cloud". It's not difficult.As a perverse example, I used my iPad an a Sandisk iXpand to ssh into a remote Linux machine, build a custom OpenWRT image, scp it to the iPad, copy it to the iXpand which I could then pop into the router, ssh in from the iPad to upgrade. Then download a copy of SysrescueCD onto the iPad, copy that to the iXpand, then ssh into the router to dd the image from the iXpand onto a standard USB to get my laptop to boot. I could have done the same with my laptop and a cable to the iPad rather than the iXpand, but I needed the USB to rescue the laptop which had a wiped boot sector.I routinely store 10's of gigs of data on the iPad. Literally the *only* thing I don't do is try and use it as a very expensive USB stick to store random stuff on, because it's the wrong tool for the job. You need client software on the laptop to get files into and out of the application containers or a lightning to USB adapter, or a lightning to SD adapter or something like an iXpand. Direct iDevice to PC works on all 3 OS I use.But hey, can't get files onto or off the iPad/iPhone.If your only sticking point is being able to plug your phone into a random PC and use it as a very expensive USB stick, then stick with Android.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 02:37:34 am
content: Also, the lack of USB C was not entirely Apple's fault. I believe that USB C was not available when Apple wanted to move to what is now the Lightning connector, so if they wanted to ship product they had to go to plan B. And once they had some products with Lightning it would start to be a compatibility problem if some products had Lightning and some had USB C. Nevertheless, that is the case today and some Apple products do already have USB C. The main advantage, and the reason Apple will go this way, is not the EU, but rather the much higher data speeds that USB C can do.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 12:14:08 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on December 18, 2022, 04:25:42 amQuote from: BradC on December 21, 2022, 02:18:58 amThanks IDEngineer for that experiment and for the subsequent comments of others such as BradC, which indicate that Apple is still on the same route as my experience years ago. So, still not for me. Fortunately I don't have a current pressure to make a change.As for the user Someone, stop projecting your fanboyism unto others.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 03:20:51 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on December 21, 2022, 02:18:58 amWhile pungeant this comment is just like those attacking taking pictures with a phone, or using the phone as a calculator or a spirit level. In none of those cases is a phone the best tool for the job. But is the tool most likely to be at hand.More convenience for the file transfer function isn't a compelling selection criteria, but it is valid.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 03:51:35 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 21, 2022, 03:20:51 pmIt's not an attack at all. Simply the facts. In those mentioned instances pretty much any phone will do what you want. Before they could do those things, you used a different device for each role. The Apple can't pretend to be a mass storage device. Use something else.Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 21, 2022, 03:20:51 pmI never said it wasn't valid. I said if it doesn't meet the needs of the OP then he should stick with Android. That's using the "selection criteria" to select an appropriate device.No attack here. Just the facts ma'am.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 05:56:19 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on December 21, 2022, 03:51:35 pmExactly. Ultimately all of these devices are for convenience, right? Humanity survived without portable phones for a long time. Same with USB sticks and cameras. But the technology is available and each may as well optimize for his/her situation to take best advantage of it.Example: I don't wear a watch anymore. There's a clock in the phone - why carry TWO timepieces?I don't carry a USB stick most of the time, because the phone has tens of gigabytes of storage already available and a USB stick doesn't have a convenient integrated display.I don't carry a still camera most of the time, because the phone already has one that is more than sufficient for 99% of the photos I need.I don't carry a video camera most of the time, same reasons.Long ago I used to carry a "Day-Timer" calendar. I don't need to anymore. Same reasons.Modern cellphones have successfully integrated many of the tools we all use in our daily lives. Apple has some remarkably great examples. But they fail to have the same compatibility with the rest of the world when it comes to connectivity. For me, in my circumstances, that's a deal breaker. The baffling part is why Apple continues to do this when countless other companies prove it's not necessary. I don't even care that they use a non-standard connector (cables are small)... but until it's as easy to interconnect asliterally every other brand of cellphone on the planet, it's going to continue to be a (sad) no.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 10:01:14 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 21, 2022, 12:14:08 pmI'm here pointing out the repeated nonsense claims of "cant do XXX" which are completely incorrect. The short stupid comment is easier that the long and correct comment. Yet, it's still on the merry go round....Quote from: IDEngineer on December 21, 2022, 05:56:19 pmAs has been said many many many times just for you, that is entirely possible if you do any of the following:a) use a 3rd party software (android file access on a Mac needs a utility installed, so that is equal in each direction)b) accept the file sync instead of exposing a file systemc) drag/drop folders into the "files" filesystem (but not individual files beyond the root??)d) accept the use of a network file share (can be a private/local network)Any one of those will do exactly what you are asking, the files sit there in the "files" filesystem for you to arrange and play with all you want, and can be sent out into other applications as needed.Your bolded part is pretty obnoxious, since the world of cellphones is wider than android vs apple, so no, literally every other cellphone is a wild exaggeration. But do keep coming back with more misinformation that claims it is entirely impossible (yet without stating your other "requirements").

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 01:33:01 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on December 21, 2022, 05:56:19 pmWhy would you attach emotion to the selection of a phone? It doesn't do the one thing you highly value as important. Pick one that does and move on.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 03:02:43 am
content: Quote from: BradC on December 22, 2022, 01:33:01 ami can feel the OP's conflict... we the more technical (manual car) type prone guys can live with whatever that works for us (android) but families (usually the selfie/social prone people) will prefer iphone, but then there introduced another problem.. compatibility among family members, they cant switch/share pictures/videos/data as easily as before. this will sometime needs the technical/it/manual car guy in the family to do heavier lifting of learning/googling a system he is not interested at to make the compatibility problem solved, just to make the "automatic car" people in the family happy. cheers, ymmv.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 04:04:47 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on December 22, 2022, 03:02:43 amI drive a manual car. I do all the work on my car. I repair the mechanics and the electronics. I use and prefer an iPhone. I carry a USB stick on my keyring. What are you trying to say?Fuck me drunk, you nutters get all wound up about "wah wah wah Apple doesn't work the way I want it to work so boo fucking hoo". Get over it and use something else. Oddly enough Android doesn't do what I need it to do. I don't whine about it, I just use the right tool for the job.Oh, hang on.. Suddenly I realise it's yet another troll thread. Is the OP treez in disguise?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 04:41:47 am
content: Quote from: BradC on December 22, 2022, 04:04:47 ami'm trying to says (apart from the obvious) manual car is analogous to android phone vice versa... some prefer manual car but like an automatic phone, literally speaking... to be more blunt.... iphone ia a fucked up phone, end of conclusion...Quote from: BradC on December 22, 2022, 04:04:47 amwhy so emotional?and why troll to somebody else that probably never existed anymore? get back to reality!... call your self star trek generation and android is a fucked up phone if you want and then get back where you belong

author: bw2341
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 03:41:23 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on December 21, 2022, 05:56:19 pmI've been trying to find a solution to your problem of Apple limiting the USB connection to only allowing copying of photos and videos from the iPhone Camera Roll to the computer.In the Apple ecosystem, transferring between local devices is very easy with AirDrop. It's on the Share Sheet so if the recipient is ready, it's just a single tap of their icon. Unfortunately, AirDrop only works on Apple devices.If you google "Airdrop for Windows", you'll see that iOS app developers have tried to replicate AirDrop with an iOS app and a Windows program working together over a proprietary system. I've only looked at a few of them, but they seem to need Internet connectivity, user accounts or a WiFi connection on a local router. Does anyone know of an app that can work without connectivity?Since I know that transferring via Files and SMB on a local router works well, I've looked into ad hoc networking. It seems that Windows 10 does not have wireless ad hoc networking in Windows Settings. I know it used to be available in the Control Panel on older versions of Windows. I've found some solutions, but they require going to the Command Prompt. While I'm comfortable with the command line interface, it is the complete opposite of user friendly. My concern is that if I type in someone's obscure commands, I won't know how to undo if it affects my normal network configuration.It seems to me that trying to transfer between two standalone Windows 10 computers is the same problem as the OP's. Does anyone need to do this in their workflow? What is the best solution?I'm sorry that I've haven't been able to find a solution to your problem.Since I always try to add signal rather than noise to a discussion, what do people think of using smartphone photos for work? The OP mentioned the use of photos in a professional setting and potential legal issues. I'm wondering about the intense amount of image processing that "beautifies" every smartphone photo to make up for the tiny noisy image sensor. For example, if I needed to document surface defects, physical damage or discoloration, is a smartphone photo an accurate representation of the fault?

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2022, 03:45:29 am
content: I wonder if it's possible to transfer an audio file or an image to the Iphone without going thru the internet?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2022, 06:34:39 am
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on December 26, 2022, 03:45:29 amYes.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2022, 01:56:53 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 26, 2022, 06:34:39 amCan you show me how?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2022, 07:21:10 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on December 26, 2022, 01:56:53 pmFor music you use iTunes to add songs to your music library. For this you need to connect with a USB cable.For images you browse on the phone to a network share, select the images you want, and import them to a Photo Album.You can connect to the network share over a wireless network, or you can use an ethernet adapter to connect your phone to a wired network.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2022, 10:09:36 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 26, 2022, 07:21:10 pmBy the time iTunes is installed then the same interface can be used to push photos onto the device over the USB connection.orfor the people in this thread that want to play with file systems and folders, the images can be pushed to the "files" filesystem (over USB or internet or local network) and then moved/organised as wanted from there.oruse some 3rd party transfer software, which will do it over USB without having to use iTunes (if that is some impediment for some reason).Quote from: BeBuLamar on December 26, 2022, 01:56:53 pmGiven all the links and explanations so far in this thread, if you cant figure it out already then no amount of hand holding will change that.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2022, 10:32:07 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on December 26, 2022, 10:09:36 pmCould you clarify how this is done? I only see a way to "sync" photos (all or nothing), I see no way to drag and drop individual photos onto the phone.QuoteSimilarly, could you clarify how to access the Files on the phone over USB?Also, when using the network, I am only aware of a "pull" model from the phone. I don't see a "push" model from the PC.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2022, 11:54:16 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 26, 2022, 10:32:07 pm... this entire thread!Does that post ask for drag and drop? NO:Quote from: BeBuLamar on December 26, 2022, 03:45:29 amThe sync meets that requirement, through iTunes. Audio can be drag/drop (from library) and photos are syncAdding more requirements beyond the question is why this thread is a dumpster fire. Because then it gets distilled back to "cannot be done no way no how" when the answer is: can be done blah ways, but not in certain combinations....Quote from: IanB on December 26, 2022, 10:32:07 pmLooks like you are right, it is a bizarre enforced asymmetry of the iOS file handling/system:the first party "files" app cannot be accessed for drag/drop (or sync) using iTunes, yet 3rd party apps can do that3rd party software on the desktop can drag/drop from the first party "files"So it needs an extra (free or not) piece of software on one side.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 12:04:44 am
content: Quote from: Someone on December 26, 2022, 11:54:16 pmI respectfully disagree. Precision is important. When someone asks if it is possible to "transferanimage to the iPhone", I read that to mean that I have a single image on my PC, and I want to transfer that to my phone. Using sync will cause the software to decide what images to transfer not me, and it will transfer both ways.So for me, sync does not meet the requirement as stated.What you can do instead, is use the Files app on the phone to browse a network drive, select a single image from there, and then download it onto the phone.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 12:08:51 am
content: By the way, I really hate plugging the USB cable in with iTunes, because one time before when I did that, the first thing it said was "deleting videos from your library because you are not allowed to have them".

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 05:06:47 pm
content: This has happened to me a couple ot times with an old iPod Touch device I had since new - i.e., it did not have stolen/unauthorized media there.Having iTunes as the only offline option to copy files to/fro a PC is not a solution for me - once you get burned a few times you tend to not go back through the same road.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 09:25:53 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on December 22, 2022, 04:41:47 amI don't get it, what's wrong with it? I also drive a manual car and prefer an iPhone, mostly because most of my friends have them and iMessage allows me to text with them for free even those that live in another country. I have some Android devices around too, they work although they feel more clunky but they don't support iMessage, so they are missing useful functionality that I rely on. Aside from the annoying fanboi-ism that tends to come with Apple I don't really understand the problem or what the devices are lacking exactly. My phone does what it's supposed to do, it was inexpensive and has lasted years, it was the only decent phone I could find that wasn't huge. I have no desire to tinker with and hack the tool that I rely heavily on daily, it's not a toy, it's a tool and it just works. I won't buy anything that has a notch or cutout in the display or lacks a physical home button though so I'm not sure if Apple has any current offerings that meet my requirements.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 03:47:48 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on December 21, 2022, 01:33:50 amOh Apple know, they just don't care. Their business model isn't built around making products that are highly customisable that are suitable for a wide user-base, they make decent quality products that you have to usetheir way. If you don't like it, use something else. Year after year, iteration after iteration, Apple seems to be behind the times when it comes to specifications and features of their products, but they appeal to those who want a simple user experience or like shiny things in pretty packaging.I'm a tinkerer and I want my phone to look and feel the way I want, not what the manufacturer decides is the default setting. Which is why I still prefer Android (that and security).Quote from: IanB on December 27, 2022, 12:04:44 amTo add to this, by having sync software as a layer in between, it typically (but not always) involves changing data from the original form in one way or another. Sometimes it means compressing it or changing the format to something the device can use, whether you like it or not. It could also be something as minor as adding/removing file metadata.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 05:15:05 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 28, 2022, 03:47:48 amApple makes phones suitable for and chosen by billions of users. If that is not a "wide user base" I am not sure what is?Also the paragraph you quoted suggesting you need to use the cloud for connectivity is not correct, as noted many times in this thread. Apple phones are compatible with common network standards, and can connect using both wireless and wired networking. So there is no "artificial barrier" in this instance.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 09:10:49 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 28, 2022, 05:15:05 amThese "billions of users" still only equate to global market share of ~16% of smartphone users in Q3 2022. In some markets, it's higher (such as the USA which is around 48% for Apple).

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 09:54:12 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 28, 2022, 09:10:49 amYes, apparently "billions" is overstating the numbers a bit. Worldwide there seem to be about 1 billion iOS users and 3 billion Android users.I checked some statistics market share by brand, and the results are interesting:https://www.oberlo.com/statistics/smartphone-market-shareIt seems that Apple and Samsung are neck-and-neck in market share, but the other players like Xiaomi, Oppo, Huawei and Vivo are not brands I would really consider buying in the USA. So although the ratio of Android users to iOS users is about 3:1 overall, the ratio of Samsung users to Apple users is more like 50:50.I would say the appeal of Android owes a lot to having more platforms and lower cost options. I dare say most Android users just use their phone as a smartphone like most Apple users do.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 06:05:47 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 27, 2022, 12:04:44 amCorrect! I am a PC user and my company issued me an IPhone. I have thousands of images on my PC but ocasionally I edit and crop and resize an image for use as the Iphone background. I only want to transfer that specific image to the Iphone.I also have a lot of audio files on my PC but I do have a number of audio files about 20 of them, they are in the *.wav format 44khz 16bit. At times I need to change these files and transfer to the Iphone for others to use.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 06:58:53 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on December 28, 2022, 06:05:47 pmSure. I have a company iPhone and I did that too.QuoteThe "for others to use" bit confuses me. Can you elaborate?

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 08:06:10 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 28, 2022, 06:58:53 pmI my company we have a number of electronic cam switch. These are very olf school units and they use FSK signal to be recorded on a audio cassette recorder for saving the program. The program can then be played back into the unit to reload the program. I would use a PC laptop to record thes signal as *.wav files. Then I want to tranfer them to other people's Iphone so when the program is lost they can reload it with the audio files on their phones. Since it's for work and they should use issued phone which are Iphone. People do have android phones but we don't want to make them use their personal phones for work.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 08:33:15 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on December 28, 2022, 08:06:10 pmYes, that works, I just tested it. iOS can play .wav files natively, so if you just copy a wav file onto the phone the phone will play it.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 09:09:26 pm
content: So I need an easy way to transfer those files from the PC to the Iphone. I prefer not having to install Itune. You said setting as network I really don't have an idea how to do that.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 10:37:56 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on December 28, 2022, 09:09:26 pmHow can anyone tell you the best way without knowing anything about your company infrastructure and available services?Do you use Microsoft 365? What email system do you use? Do you use Google Drive? Other file share services like Box or DropBox or OneDrive? How is your network set up? Do you have corporate Wi-Fi? Do you have file shares? Can you send email attachments? Can you use USB drives?Honestly, there are so many possible options you should probably do some internet searching and reading to find out what would work for you. You might find a starting point here:https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-use-the-files-app-on-iphone-ipad

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 10:42:43 pm
content: I want to do the transfer without using the internet. Yes I can access USB thumb drive. But let show me using a PC (administered by me) and an Iphone that I have access to everything. How do I make the transfer via the USB connection?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 11:20:31 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on December 28, 2022, 10:42:43 pmStill going I see...If you want to move files to an iOS device from a PC over USB you will have to install some software (and possibly an app). If for some reason you cannot use iTunes, then you're off into 3rd party solutions.Quote from: Someone on December 17, 2022, 04:34:51 amQuote from: Someone on December 21, 2022, 10:01:14 pmQuote from: Someone on December 26, 2022, 10:09:36 pmOr do we need another 3 pages of this?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 11:30:17 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on December 28, 2022, 10:42:43 pmWhat do you mean by "internet"?You can:(a) Connect the phone to your wireless network, then browse to a network file share using the Files app and copy the files onto the phone from there(b) Obtain a USB adapter for the phone, plug in a USB thumb drive, copy the files off the USB drive using the Files app(c) If you don't have wireless, obtain an ethernet adapter for the phone, plug the phone into a network cable, then browse the network using the Files app(d) Do what Someone has advised, use a third party app and copy the files using the USB cablePlease stop asking people to spoon feed you, and do some research on your own. You must know what the internet is, since you are presumably using it to connect to this forum.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 01:22:45 am
content: thanks I will just simply find another device rather than the Iphone. Enough Apple for me. You proved it Apple is difficult to use.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 02:10:37 am
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on December 29, 2022, 01:22:45 amNot at all.Youproved you are incapable. That is quite a different thing.Now I'm going to ask you a question. Suppose you have two Windows PCs, maybe two laptops. You need to copy a file from one laptop to the other using a USB cable. How would you do that? If you don't know the answer, we must assume Windows PCs are difficult to use, and you need to use another device. Linux, maybe?

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 02:53:59 am
content: Yes I am incapable and the Apple products only for those smart people like me. Stupid people like me better off using PC and Android.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 03:25:09 am
content: I'm not sure why you think anyone would care that you are incapable (except the company that employs you, perhaps)?But you should be embarrassed about it.The point is that at the start of this thread I didn't know the answers either. But I was curious, so I Googled it, and I tried things out, and now I have learned. I really don't understand why you seem incapable of doing the same?This is not some schoolyard game of "my phone is better than your phone". We really don't care. This is supposed to be a professional forum where intelligent people try to solve problems. This thread is full of answers to your problem, but you don't seem interested to try them out.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2022, 07:39:48 am
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on December 29, 2022, 01:22:45 amNo, it's only proved that you are insistent on forcing a round peg into a square hole. It's quite possible that Apple products are not the best choice for you, that doesn't mean they're difficult to use, it just means that you're not willing to use them in the manner they're intended to be used. Many of us here are managing to use them without any real difficulty, I'm no apple fanboi, in fact there are quite a few things I don't like about Apple and their products but despite that the two iPhones I've had have proven themselves very simple, intuitive and reliable devices. I have no trouble loading content them without jumping through any crazy hoops.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2023, 01:21:13 pm
content: If you want a phone that's reliable, that plays Youtube and TikTok vidoos, and rings when people phone you, then fine, but you're at the mercy of Apple when they decide to no longer support your device. If you want to tinker and do anything more advanced, use a different platform.Apple is quite easy to use until you want to do something outside "the norm" for the eco system. Then it's bloody impossible. I actually quite like the hardware, it's the software that lets it down.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2023, 06:12:03 pm
content: The Fruit brand stuff is like a religion.Some people like to be led as sheep and they are happy as long as the grass is green.Other people are capable of independent thought and choose other directions.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2023, 07:22:35 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on January 07, 2023, 06:12:03 pmThis statement is just a passive aggressive way of saying that anyone that doesn't follow the Android religion (the only "other direction" there is) is an idiot, while you on the other hand are enlightened and superior, it's nonsense and exactly the same smug attitude that the Apple fanboys have. Both platforms have devoted followers, as illustrated here and both platforms are perfectly fine. Personally I don't care, I have both Apple and Android devices, they both have strengths and weaknesses. The Android devices are easier to hack and tweak if that's what you're into and there is a wider range of hardware choices, the Apple devices are supported much longer (still using my 7 year old iPhone SE and it's still supported and perfectly usable) and in my experience are more polished and "just work". Both are comparable in terms of cost, both have similar hardware specs and both have annoying fanboys that think they're smarter than everyone else. You're no more capable of independent thought than other people, you've simply done the same thing everyone else does and chose the platform out of the two available choices that you think is better suited to your needs. Instead of just being content with your choice and using it to do something useful you've chosen to insult anyone who made a different choice than you.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2023, 11:30:14 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 07, 2023, 07:22:35 pmThis may be of interest to you.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2023, 08:57:39 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 07, 2023, 11:30:14 pmOK, so what is the video saying? Old device will not install old OS? (apple only provides/supports the newest supported OS for most devices)and how is that comparable to a device from another manufacturer of the era? say Galaxy S5 ?

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2023, 11:43:25 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 07, 2023, 07:22:35 pmSo you make a broad assumption, then draw conclusions from that and and based on those assumptions you keep on rambling for another 20 sentences. I'll assume you think yourself quite smart and educated.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 12:27:19 am
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on January 08, 2023, 11:43:25 pmAnd yet you said:Quote from: Doctorandus_P on January 07, 2023, 06:12:03 pmWhat is this if not a broad assumption? You assume people who own Apple products are not capable of independent thought?Even what you say does not make sense. You are happy when your grass is not green? Why is that?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 07:40:35 am
content: Quote from: Someone on January 08, 2023, 08:57:39 pmOld Samsung's (and others) don't mandate you "activate" with a proprietary server just to make the phone work, nor do they brick your device at some random time if you purposely choose not to update or keep using an obsolete product. You can use it completely offline if you wanted to.Also, I'm not here to regurgitate or transcribe videos for you. If you're interested, take the time to watch them yourself. That should answer your questions.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 07:47:59 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 09, 2023, 07:40:35 amMy old iPhone 4 from 2013 still works perfectly with iOS 6, I chose to not update it and keep using the obsolete product, there are a couple of abandoned apps on it that don't work on newer iOS releases so I kept it around for that. I don't get what the issue is hereI guess if you need to be able to reflash obsolete smartphones get an Android phone then, old ones are cheap and plentiful, have at least a couple of them kicking around here somewhere. I have no real interest in hacking ancient phones though, what am I gonna use one for?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 10:56:15 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 09, 2023, 07:40:35 amfine now that I've spent 8 minutes of "rumours" and guesses, that video includes an acknowledgement that you can just install the most recent OS onto that device and it will work fine......when you posted that as some sort of counter argument to the above quote, about old devices still being supported with long periods of OS upgrades. Seem to be the opposite and some entirely new argument from you that the user should be able to choose their own upgrade downgrade points, which like this entire thread.... can be done with 3rd party software.You've posted some 3rd party "coverage" of an obscure corner case of a collector who wants to use a unsupported operating system, on a device that they only just opened and had never been setup or configured (and required a replacement battery just to use as it was so very old). That is not the same as people wanting to stay on a specific OS they are running (for whatever misguided reason).

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 11:00:07 am
content: Quote from: james_s on January 09, 2023, 07:47:59 amThe aggressive periodic activation arrived in later iOS versions, and might still crop up on older units if you try and change bits of the "identity" like the cellular network or iTunes ownership (or a full refresh from scratch?).The argument that iOS devices receive updates longer is true, but equally the user has less choice over which OS they can put on the device (without going to 3rd party tools)....having to make painfully clear that is entirely different from what OS is kept running on the device (more choice again)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 06:54:41 pm
content: It is one of my biggest complaints about iOS that I can't roll back the OS version, or worse yet, the app version. More than once I've been burned by an updated app that had a serious bug making it unusable and had to wait months for an update to come out and fix it. Even more often an updated version has taken away functionality or put it behind a paywall, the weather radar app I used to use disabled the future forecast that used to be free and made it part of the overpriced subscription tier making that app useless. At this point I've stopped updating at all, and I moved the app store onto one of the other pages of my home screen so I don't see the update badge anymore. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I absolutely do not trust software updates anymore, collectively they have caused me far more pain that bugs or security holes.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 11:27:04 pm
content: My approach is to only update if I have a specific bug that the update specifically addresses. Otherwise my experience is the same as yours. You'd be appalled at how "out of date" some of my compilers are - but they work and to my knowledge don't generate bad code. That's worth a LOT of foregone "improvements".

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 12:18:21 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on January 09, 2023, 11:27:04 pmThe version of MS Office I have is a stunning 20 years old now. It works just fine and does everything I need Office to do. These days I'm mostly on Linux and have Libre Office on that, it's not quite as good but it does most of what I need.