OT: Australian Census - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 08:25:32 am
content: We have a census coming up in Oz, and they now want to get our names and addresses as part of an anti-privacy data collection heistJust wondering if any other countries do this on their census?https://www.crikey.com.au/2016/07/14/census-cannot-force-you-to-give-data/

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 09:04:22 am
content: Yes, in Greece they always asked many personal question. Long before the data-collection era. The file below is a typical questionnaire (it is from Cyprus, but more or less the same with Greece. I could not find the Greek one in English). Page four for the personal questions.http://www.cystat.gov.cy/mof/cystat/statistics.nsf/All/8B26C8436C943170C22578A20033A09E/$file/Census2011-HHQST-EN-010611.pdfAlexander.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 09:36:17 am
content: Don't forget to put your religion down as 'Jedi Knight'.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 11:44:15 am
content: Quote from: German_EE on July 24, 2016, 09:36:17 amNO!PLEASE don't do that, it's completely screws with the intention of the the question and the usage of the results. It can ultimately have big political ramifications in society. Writing Jedi actually gets you lumped into the religious category and you'll be helping shape public policy based on the number of religious people. So it defeats the entire purpose of "I think religion is silly, so I'll write Jedi, that'll show'em" stand.If you are non-religious (now), tick "No Religion".Secular Australians have been fighting for a long time to change the "leading" religion question, and this year they have finally done it. It was the #1 formally requested change. They have changed to wording for this year and put "No Religion" first as it should be

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 11:57:23 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 24, 2016, 11:44:15 amWhat if someone actually believes they're a Jedi?

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 11:59:57 am
content: I'm taking the family camping. Had enough of the privacy invasion.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 02:05:12 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 24, 2016, 08:25:32 amIn the NL they don't have something like that but you are required to register yourself in the city you live in and provide an address. That way the NL government keeps track of where you are. Every person also has a number which is basically necessary for getting a job and do anything involving money (like opening a bank account). Registering religion has not been done in the NL for a long time and some politicians have pitched the idea to also stop registering the gender of people. The idea is to only register information which is necessary to keep track of the number of people and -more importantly- collect taxes.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 02:26:01 pm
content: I can think of an excellent reason to register gender. Men do not get pregnant and have babies. Governments therefore need to know the number of women of child bearing age so that advance planning can be made for things like maternity hospitals and number of midwives.Religion? None of a governments business.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 05:30:10 pm
content: Actually I think they always got the names and addresses, but they were simply to ensure they didn't get fake names or people filling it out several times. Such details were not kept as records though.What is means is the government, and anyone else with Census access, can match names to religions, income, etc etc.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 05:39:34 pm
content: IIRC last census here in the US, they asked how many toilets we had.http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/2014/04/pew_research_foundation.htmlHomes without indoor plumbing

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 05:43:24 pm
content: QuoteSounds like those "secular australians" are every bit as religious about their non-religion than those religious people. What an oxymoron.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 05:52:38 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on July 24, 2016, 02:26:01 pmThey don't need to register gender for that. There are an equal number of women and men so divide the number of people in a certain age range by 2 and you know the number of women who potentially can have a kid. Not that you'll get a meaningfull number because people have kids at much older ages nowadays.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 06:01:12 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 24, 2016, 11:44:15 amYou are taking the religions of others too seriously.The principle of church/state separation has nothing to do with the religious makeup of the population. I would focus on that.My 2c.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 06:21:01 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 24, 2016, 02:05:12 pmHere Spain, according the Taifa kingdom or Cacique council may vary the requirements, but if you want to get subsidies, using the health service or education you must register . And you must give the names ,surnames , DNIs( Identification National Document ) of the group familiar, furthermore they can to request the bills of electricity or gas , 2 neighbors as eyewitness that confirm(according Cacique Council) . This last ,it is by avoiding that 40 Mohameds and 50 Ibrahims are registred to same address.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 06:21:33 pm
content: QuoteTrailer? RV? Mobile homes? semi-trucks with beds? ...

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 06:23:36 pm
content: QuoteIn the 3rd world I live in, that would be called "racist" / "xenophobic", or just "discrimination" if they feel nice to you.

author: Nauris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 07:08:34 pm
content: Everyone gets registered at birth. When you move, get married, have kids or die - such important things in human life get written down in the official books. Has been about so since early 17th century.If you are not in the registry, then you are an illegal alien or something, so no bank account, healtcare, education, house, car or anything.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 07:51:39 pm
content: Quote from: Nauris on July 24, 2016, 07:08:34 pmMost countries' censuses are - ostensibly at least - solely for gathering information for statistical purposes and have nothing to do with citizenship or entitlement to services.I believe Finland is unusual in deriving its census data from existing government files rather than requiring its population to complete a specific census form.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 07:53:50 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on July 24, 2016, 06:23:36 pmYa ya , you can say me all you want , but the taifa kingdom when they want they put very hard.First problemAt 2011 , when my father went to pharmacy for buying his drugs , the pharmacist couldn't sell the drugs becuase he wasn't on the census but he had the health card of taifa kingdom. But there are more, apart that my father wasn't on the census , I and my mother neither were during years(less my brother).On resume , we dissapeared to census and enjoyed the service during years without problems. Now ,you image with the illegal inmigrantsSecond problemAt 2013 , i suffered an accident and i broke the elbow , when i was an Emergency, the nurse said me that i wasn't on the system, she said me that my health card put "transferred",but i said her that i was census . Then ,i had any problem.But the next day ,i had to return for repeating the blood samples(loses), but the rushes i forgot to get the health card, and the nurse gave a papers to my mother and she filled the documents and i signed.When i returned to home, my father read the document, he told to my mother and I ,that i signed a document that i compromise to pay the Emergency Service*.*(The very B**** NURSE companion of my mother(too nurse)had cheated to booby mother and i stupid for trusting of my mother.)On resume, they did me to sign a document for being to attend on Emergency while the illegal immigrant is free, i weighed that i had a health card (that they took off without motive) and i was on census.Third problemAt 2015 , my mother suffer an labour accident and she have to buy a drugs to pharmacy , and the pharmacist couldn't sell the drugs becuase her health card was "transferred " as the mine years ago.For more INRI, the taifa kingdom pay her salary, she works on an hospital that pertain to them but she hasn't the same rights that the illegal inmigrants.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 08:07:00 pm
content: Quote from: Nauris on July 24, 2016, 07:08:34 pmThat isn't true altogether, because an illegal can recieved education and healtcare service and rent the house ,without DNI , without family book and without civil register(Spain).

author: HwAoRrDk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 11:16:28 pm
content: I'm not sure of the specifics of how census-taking is governed here in the UK, but my layman's understanding is that personal details collected are not allowed to be disclosed to any parties outside of government for 100 years from date of census.Quote from: German_EE on July 24, 2016, 02:26:01 pmA government planning? Hahaha, good one!In this country, many local government authorities seem to be wholly incapable of ensuring there are adequate primary school places for children, despite having birth rate (or other paediatric health care) statistics known to them several years in advance.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 11:22:31 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on July 24, 2016, 05:43:24 pmNo, we simply care abouttruth.Any question that is a leading one is going to produce skewed results. Leading questions of any kind do not belong in a census.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 11:27:28 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on July 24, 2016, 06:01:12 pmIf the data is wrong because the question is deliberately written to skew the outcome, then yes.The Census Bureau agreed that the question was a leading one and they changed it this year. They will get more accurate data as a result.QuoteWho was talking about that? Not me.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 12:12:22 am
content: Quote from: rolycat on July 24, 2016, 07:51:39 pmSame in Sweden I believe. Not sure what they keep track of exactly butbirthday,genderand you need to have anaddressregistered. Never heard of anyone filling out a census form.Besides that there is a 'private data law' that regulates what can be registered and for what purposes (by anyone, not only the government). It is pretty good; although I understand that many government agencies find it very annoying. It's an implementation of an EU directive actually:The Data Protection Directive (officially Directive 95/46/EC). Then there is the article 8 of the european convention on human rights: which gives a right to respect for one's "private and family life, his home and his correspondence", while the ECHR is a bit vague it's legally binding in most of Europe.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 12:21:59 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 24, 2016, 11:22:31 pmBut then Aussies must be very "weak minded" if they fall so easily for intended leading questions, right? Truth is still in the eye of the beholder some folks say.Quote from: apis on July 25, 2016, 12:12:22 amI have gott'n at least 3 different census forms over the years, all ignored because they where at least 9-10 double pages thick, and it is required by law that you must fill them else you can be fined, but gov didn't care much, they just sent me another round of the garbage which i ofcourse binned!I remember that many of the questions in these census forms was unanswerable. Government always tell you they will anonymouse you from the census forms.http://www.notisum.se/rnp/sls/lag/20010099.htm#P7S1N1

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 12:37:54 am
content: Quote from: MT on July 25, 2016, 12:21:59 amI'm pretty sure you said you live in Finland before?That Swedish law only say businesses and organisations can be forced to answer, not private individuals.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 12:39:11 am
content: Quote from: MT on July 25, 2016, 12:21:59 amMost people do not think about it, let alone critically, they don't even realise they are being lead into a particular type of response. No real fault of their own, it's just not on most people's radars, they just want to get the form over and done with.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 12:45:31 am
content: Quote from: apis on July 25, 2016, 12:37:54 amDont get to hocked up on the flag, i live in Panama now!Private individuals that run business do, that's why they sent me the consensus forms as far as i can understand their reasons.Besides if you hide your self for 2 years with no known address you get dismissed by gov as disappeared. In Sweden you can and many do register them self's at one address but lives in a completely different, all illegal ofcourse but what hapends if discovered is just tax officials get grumpy and re register you on the address you actually live on.http://www.notisum.se/rnp/sls/lag/19910481.htm

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 12:46:56 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2016, 12:39:11 amYes, but is there a legal binding Aussies have to fill the forms? can you be fined if you dont?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 01:15:44 am
content: Quote from: MT on July 25, 2016, 12:46:56 amYes, just like getting fined for not voting.But practically there is really no way to know if you were actually home or not on the night. Well, maybe there is now with the names. But that's another legal mind field for them, using the name (or lack of) to cross reference against say the electoral role or some other database and then issuing fines for not filing in the form. It's a ridiculous can of legal worms they have opened, and I really do nope someone takes them on in court and has this name collection business stopped.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 01:32:27 am
content: Quote from: MT on July 25, 2016, 12:45:31 amAh, appears to be a popular place!Quote from: MT on July 25, 2016, 12:45:31 amThat's not really the census data though, that's data for statistics they want because you are running some form of business ('enskild firma'?). So there is no general census form that is being sent out to normal people.According to this law:http://www.notisum.se/rnp/sls/lag/20010182.htmThe only data the government are allowed to register in the census database is this:"social security number", name, birthday, place of birth, address, citizenship, marital status, nearest relatives, if you have immigrated, if you are participating in an election to the european parliament (to prevent people from running in several countries or something like that), burial info, "social security number" from other Nordic countries, and if you are allowed to stay in Sweden.There's a major privacy issue with the blood bank though, umbilical cord blood is collected from all infants at birth for medical research purposes (kept at a university). Unfortunately the blood bank have been misused by the police a couple of times. But it's voluntary (they ask the parents) and you can ask to have your record removed later if you care enough (most people don't).

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 01:33:30 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 24, 2016, 11:27:28 pmYou said this "PLEASE don't do that, it's completely screws with the intention of the the question and the usage of the results. It can ultimately have big political ramifications in society. ".The number of atheists, Christians, or Jedais on the census should have no political ramifications in a country that property separates between church and state. If that separation doesn't exist in Australia, that's the root cause to focus on.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 02:29:09 am
content: Quote from: zapta on July 25, 2016, 01:33:30 amSure, but fixing a flawed census question on religionisa way to help in that regard. It's one of the steps.And the census results are used by religious groups to apply political leverage on the government, and that has nothing to do with separate of church and state, it's about potential funding for (religious) community groups that purport to represent a proportion of the population. If that data is wrong, then that's an important issue to fix.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 02:37:52 am
content: Funny, in our country we recently kicked out the party who crippled the census by removing the mandatory long form. It was an election issue:https://www.liberal.ca/realchange/the-long-form-census/

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 03:16:20 am
content: Wouldn't ABS already have our addresses since everyone is being sent an unique online login via mail? Surely they'd be able to identify which login ID matched to a certain address.Straight from the ABS website:Are names and addresses compulsory in the Census?Names and addresses have been collected in every Census.When should the ABS destroy names and addresses?In recent Censuses names and addresses have been destroyed at the end of Census data processing, approximately eighteen months after the Census. This has reduced the value of the Census data and the ability for it to be used to inform future planning and decisions...... For the 2016 Census, the ABS will destroy names and addresses when there is no longer any community benefit to their retention or four years after collection (i.e. August 2020), whichever is earliest.http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/censushome.nsf/home/privacy?opendocument&navpos=130

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 03:53:59 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2016, 02:29:09 amIt'll be entertaining in several years time when the statistics start rolling out and there is no unexpected change in the number of Australians putting down "no religion" as they continue to identify with their faiths even though they may not regularly attend church. The "out group" has been increasing steadily even without making it the first choice:http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4102.0Main+Features30Nov+2013

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 04:52:49 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 25, 2016, 03:16:20 amIIRC that has never happened before, you simply got the same envelope on the doorstep as everyone else, and you left it on the doorstep for collection.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 04:55:29 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 25, 2016, 03:16:20 amNote how they didn't say "compulsory" in their answer to that question, because it has never been "compulsory" until now.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 08:33:15 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2016, 04:52:49 amI remember completing the last two censuses online (2006 and 2011). I don't recall how it worked now, but I'm pretty sure they sent out a unique identifier to each address along with the paper form and you picked which method you wanted to use. If you lodged both an online and hardcopy of the census form with the same ID, only one would be counted (whichever was lodged first).At the end of the day, I'm not too bothered if ABS have my details. One of the places where I have my name/address suppressed is on the electoral roll. If you are enrolled to vote in Australia and are listed on the electoral roll, just about anyone can walk into an AEC office and use one of their public computers to look your address up with nothing more than a name without providing any reason or justification, at least this was the case when I tried it back in 2007, no identification or reason required, the person at the reception just pointed me towards a computer and told me I had about 10 minutes.Now it appears you need to have "an appropriate reason" to inspect the names/addresses on the roll.Source:http://www.elections.nsw.gov.au/enrol_to_vote/access_to_the_roll

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 04:23:27 pm
content: QuoteSo people who runs businesses is not normal people?I recall 2 of them was about business in general (aktiebolag/handelsbolag etc) and the third about regional issue like healt care, employment opportunities etc, after all census and statistics are closely bounded. Anyhow this "people count" taking place in AU seams to be about preserving the names of the counted.QuoteOne might wonder what the "matching" is all about, i suggest it would be pretty neat thing to have in combination of the Turnbull-Brandis mass surveillance scheme.Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2016, 01:15:44 amHow peculiar, you can get fined if you dont vote! Good to know there are other countries on this planet that's weirder then Sweden!Compulsory voting in a democracy is a contradiction in terms. I just read that people in AU have been sent to jail for not voting, thats just hilarious!I also hear on the radio that to vote on Labour in UK you have to pay 3UKP, that's also hilarious! In Scandinavia you dont pay at all, instead the governoment pays the parties...thats also hilarious!

author: Synthetase
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 04:36:07 pm
content: Quote from: MT on July 25, 2016, 12:21:59 amWeak minded indeed...

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 04:56:02 pm
content: QuoteHere , the Electoral table's crew are conscripts under penalty of fee and prision for 2 years who missing his place without justification(practically you must be invalid for not going as in the military service).And the Junta Central or la provincial can send the police your home for forcing to go to electoral school. Only advantage is that the member of electoral can't be arrestted if he performs a crime during the electoral day.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 06:17:53 pm
content: [quote author=Halcyon... For the 2016 Census, the ABS will destroy names and addresses when there is no longer any community benefit to their retention or four years after collection (i.e. August 2020), whichever is earliest.I am surprised at not storing names and addresses. When did this start, our British overlords were always good at keeping records!In the future it will make it harder for people to find out about their ancestors. For example I can now lookup the Irish 1912 census records for my family on the internet and recently learned my great grandfather had an 'electronics/electrical' shop in the city centre back them.Dave the reglion question is worthless unless they also ask if they are practicing.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 06:19:09 pm
content: Quote from: MT on July 25, 2016, 04:23:27 pmOf course not, the norm is to not run a business.Quote from: MT on July 25, 2016, 04:23:27 pmHmm, iircenskild firmais linked to your identity, whereas anaktiebolagis given its own identity. So any questionnaire should be addressed to theaktiebolag, not the individual who owns it.Quote from: MT on July 25, 2016, 04:23:27 pmThe problem is, I believe, that you can link sensitive private information (like religion, or sexuality, or whatever they ask in the questionnaire) to your identity: i.e. name and address.Quote from: MT on July 25, 2016, 04:23:27 pmYes matching sounds bad, who knows how far that goes.Everyoneclosely allied with the USA is in on the mass surveillance scheme unfortunately.Quote from: MT on July 25, 2016, 04:23:27 pmI don't see why it would be a contradiction. Actually, imo voting is an moral obligation if you are lucky enough to live in a democracy, so in a way it makes sense to make it a legal obligation as well. Question is if there are any benefits to forcing people to vote. I somehow doubt it will make more people make an informed decision when voting and if people are just voting randomly it would make the results less reliable (lower signal to noise). Anyway, there might be advantages?

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 07:16:51 pm
content: QuoteWe had more rights with the dictatorship than with the democrazy of all banned by securityWe had less corruption with the dictatorship than the democrazy: Logic only had a theft, now had 5 thieves plus the future thieves,besides of the 17 taifa kingdoms with his own presisdents and their mariachis.But clear have to do a faith act for democracy.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2016, 03:05:32 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2016, 02:29:09 amIf your government funds religion that's not good. Should have done better job copying.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_Australia

author: Alexei.Polkhanov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2016, 07:53:48 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 24, 2016, 11:22:31 pmCanadian census 2016 had no questions about religion. I was actually surprised. This raises a question about no question.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2016, 08:11:24 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 24, 2016, 08:25:32 amThe last census in Denmark was in 1970 (the first in 1769). A nationwide civil register was introduced in 1968 and everybody were issued a unique ID number Censuses are a thing of the past. The authorities already have all the information in their central database. You are by law required to inform them when you move, etc. Even temporary residents, like exchange students, are issued a number.

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 02:38:19 pm
content: It would seemed to most that the Census does not work for everyone, but recently I started a family tree, which my mother has continued with and the information she has received is based on the census data right back to when Henry VIII introduced the census. After 99 (I think) year the data is released and used to help maintain family trees.I personally was amazed how my family tree was interpreted as we went through it.So there is another reason for the census but stats are the more immediate reason and dont mind if they have some of my information.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 03:01:15 pm
content: Europe:http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2008:218:0014:0020:EN:PDFLast one 2011, every 10 years or so, no religion, no name (it would blow the fuse).

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 06:33:11 pm
content: Something related to privacy is the selling of UK voter data.I've just been requested by my local council to update my details online, and on the form it has a tick box called "Excluded from Open Register?" where you tick to stop the council selling your dataexcept you can't tick the box because someone disabled it!<td class="col_opt_out" align="center"><input disabled="" name="disOpt_Out0" type="checkbox"></td>/tinfoil hat on

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2016, 06:11:05 am
content: Quote from: bitslice on July 28, 2016, 06:33:11 pmDon't forget the good quality Schottky Diodes .

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2016, 06:18:48 am
content: My theory of census taking is that it is done to make people feel better. By fooling people into thinking that the government does not have the data they are asking for.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2016, 11:09:54 am
content: Well this is fun. I wonder just how many hours I am going to have to sit here this evening before I can even log on to the stupid ABS census site. What a joke. My parents and their friends ordered the paper forms last week when they received their (way too short for modern Aust. post delivery) notification and none of them have so far received them! Tuesday 9th! Census night! This is turning out to be a farce organized by dumbos at almost every level!http://www.lifehacker.com.au/2016/08/the-australian-census-website-is-down/EDIT:http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/census-meltdown-rubbish-says-abs-heres-what-you-need-to-know-about-census-2016-20160808-gqo1jv.htmlQuoteUh-huh. Fortunately we have until September 23 to fill out this "August 9th" census form, reportedly, so I for one aren't staying up.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2016, 12:31:17 pm
content: They spent $500k on load testing and it failed!Company responsible is:http://revolutionit.com.au/

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2016, 12:40:47 pm
content: Had no issues doing census 3pm today.I would have thought their website would have been able to scale to handle load.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2016, 12:56:23 pm
content: Great advertisement and publicity for Revolution IT. I guess we can all feel doubly assured now that our personal data once collected will be every bit as secure as the ABS belligerently asserts it will be.Incidentally, I finally managed to actually get onto the ABS census site post 10pm, but I now repeatedly get this. It's just short of 10:30pm now. Screw this I'm going beddy byes.

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2016, 03:04:59 pm
content: No Problems my end, although Perth is quite isolated and everyone would have given up by then.Anyway doesn't need to be lodged till Sept 23, plenty of time

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2016, 06:11:11 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2016, 01:15:44 amWait, what?I find that very hard to believe.As far as I know every western country rules as a democracy with freedom of speech.That means by definition that it's somebodies right to not vote if he or she doesn't want to, for whatever reason that is.In fact it can been seen as discrimination, some Jehovah groups don't vote for example.In Europe that would be an absolute no go, and completely against the fundamental rights in our law system.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2016, 06:33:45 pm
content: Different rules for different countries. The Australian method is you need to go to the polling station and be checked off the voters roll. What you put on the paper, if you vote for one of the candidates, write a candidate in or spoil your ballot is not a concern for anybody but you. They only want you to exercise the right to vote.Otherwise you get a situation what happened here last Wednesday in the local elections, where one voting district had 22 voters turn out the entire day to vote, the rest stayed away. I trotted up the road to my local station, waited the 5 seconds in the queue to get in, and was out 3 minutes later, then chatted to the local party reps for a while whilst enjoying the sunshine.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2016, 08:18:23 pm
content: I am still completely blown away by the whole thought of it.The fact that somebody gets fined by not showing up by itself makes it not part of being free in whatever you want to do or think around any type of elections.Voting is still a right, not an obligation! Therefore going to a polling station is a choice.Or in other words, if I don't go it simply means that I use my right not to vote, whatever reasons that is.If people don't show up, it could also mean that there is something seriously wrong with the options to vote for or how the voting is been done, for example.In some cases the whole election is being stalled or invalid if there aren't enough votes in total.Otherwise, if their are only 22 votes, apparently the rest of the people didn't find the need (whatever that is) to go.Forcing people really drives against the whole idea of free speech in my opinion.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2016, 11:00:39 pm
content: The funny thing about the census is that it's all information they already have anyway... it's just giving us illusion that we have some kind of control over the info they have on us.In general I don't really have much issues with the census, the questions are just general statistical stuff like beliefs, field of work etc if I recall. Been a while since I filled one.What I have a big problem with is the fact that government and corporations spy on each and every single one of our actions on the internet, and are even extending that further into our homes through "smart" devices.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2016, 11:48:01 pm
content: I have no qualms about providing details for statistical purposes - but personally identifying information is something that goes against the grain.One question asks for Date Of Birth -or- Age. All they need is age - and that's all they'll get from me.Names as optional I have no problem with (but I won't offer mine) - but compulsory? I completely fail to see why they would need that for any statistical purposes. I don't have a fundamental worry about the ABS having that information - just having it on a database.Once information is on a database, it is so EASY to do things with it. All you need is one dishonest member of staff or one successful hacker.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 12:15:38 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on August 09, 2016, 11:48:01 pmMy theory is they have all your info in a database, this is just to make you think they do not have it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 12:36:44 am
content: Quote from: GK on August 09, 2016, 12:56:23 pmNot sure how you did that, because this morning they are emphatically saying that they switched off the server after 7:30pm after a 4th DDOS attack.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 01:03:47 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 10, 2016, 12:36:44 amUmm, I just typed "census.abs.gov.au" into my browser URL/address bar.So they didn't expect and/or weren't properly prepared for DDoS attack then?

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 01:40:31 am
content: Perhaps they switched the backend off, but the front-end websites are still running (like cloudflare or whatever)?

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 02:15:57 am
content: Currently it saysQuoteAnother massive fail, from outsourced IT done by IBM. Also still using Lotus Notes, as that's what the ABS used before.Also thanks dave, I didn't know about the four DDOS attacks.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 03:55:14 am
content: Quote from: station240 on August 10, 2016, 02:15:57 amOur state of Oregon mismanaged a $300M project called "Cover Oregon", the local implementation of national "Obama Care"But our brilliant politicians and bureaucrats thought they could be their own system integrator.The state of Oregon and Oracle ended up counter-sueing each other and the FBI steppe in to investigate.Never heard the outcome (if it was even resolved at all?) Politics and government as usual....

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 04:49:10 am
content: Quote from: GK on August 10, 2016, 01:03:47 amJust guessing....I reckon the matter was raised, but I'll bet someone 'higher up' decided to save a few bucks by skipping that consideration - possibly with the logic of "There's no reason why anyone would want to do that."Either that, or somebody a bit lower down skipped it to meet a deadline.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 05:15:52 am
content: I call bullshit on the DDOS attack claim. Most of the foreign IP addresses were blocked, as it was evident by people having trouble accessing the site via VPN . (For me, the only VPN endpoint that worked was based in LA.) An acquaintance of mine, who is pretty much an an expert in large scale networking infrastructure projects, claims that ABS royally screwed up their load balancing of their web infrastructure.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 06:29:49 am
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on August 10, 2016, 05:15:52 amI must admit - that sounds a little more likely to me ... but who's to say the DDOS attacks had to come from foreign IP addresses?

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 08:49:55 am
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on August 10, 2016, 05:15:52 amI'm curious to see how long it takes for the entire census database to end up on Wikileaks or pastebin or whatever. Seems reasonable to assume their computer security will be as brilliant as their load balancing.No one else is commenting that one *really* useful thing the government gets from people doing their census online, is a list of names matched to IP addresses. Perhaps best used to validate the list they already have.Anyway, by chance my ex wife accidentally threw out the mailed password. So I got the paper form. And filled in my name, despite online opinions that they can't enforce that request. eg:http://www.lifehacker.com.au/2016/08/how-to-keep-your-name-off-the-census-without-getting-fined/I take the view that they already know it anyway. So let's give them as much rope as they want. I want to see what they do with it. Bring it on.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 09:37:08 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on August 10, 2016, 01:40:31 amI'm not an IT person, so don't know what they did, but that log-in screen screenshot I posted was taken a few minutes prior to my ~10:30pm posting. Anyway, the ABS was anticipating in the vicinity of 8 million people to fill out their census forum on-line yesterday, so this crash that they were belligerently denying the possibility of is a major embarrassment and they are in damage control. Entirely truthful or not, their claim that all systems were promptly shutdown/taken off line is exactly what you'd expect them to say in any case as they need to allay fears amongst the public that there may have been a security breach.It really is amazing just how stupidly this whole census exercise has been managed on all levels. This whole census thing relies on a warm and fuzzy relationship between the ABS and the public. That ensures the honestly and integrity of the collected data. The ABS and some select politicians appear to have been doing their best to make the public skeptical and annoyed.I think there are legitimate privacy concerns with the census this time 'round due the giving of names made compulsory, but the political response was to deride such sentiment as belonging to the "tinfoil hat" brigade and issue reminders that the ABS has the right to issue fines of $180 for each day that one individual refuses to fill the census form out, completely, after the deadline. I think that is obscene and should (and likely does) make anyone (even those who have no real qualms about complying and giving their full personal details) feel uneasy. I mean really, why not just make the fine for choosing to not fill in the census a one-off $100 and leave it at that? How many people, when it comes down to it, would choose to cough up the $100 in favor of submitting their census form? Not very many I'd wager, and the number would almost certainly be statistically insignificant as far as this whole data gathering exercise is concerned. It wouldn't have even been a hot topic of discussion then, but no, some dumb politicians and ABS spokespeople instead have to wave their limp dictatorial willies in the public's face.This census is probably going to wind up with the highest percentage of bogus and untruthful submitted data of any census to date.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 09:57:23 am
content: http://www.theshovel.com.au/2016/08/10/australias-population-now-48-abs-confirms/

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 10:07:13 am
content: Quote from: GK on August 10, 2016, 09:37:08 amHow many people would choose to pay a one off fine rather than give their name would also be handy statistical titbit

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 10:25:48 am
content: Its not a one off fine, it is $180 per day, but for that you would need to be someone they where targeting, not just joe blow, especially given how currently a large chunk of the population is likely to not have completed it.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 10:43:44 am
content: I read earlier that the fine is generally imposed whereby a person makes it blatantly obvious to the census collector that they have no intention of participating or providing any information, I had a census collector hound me for weeks once and simply told them the premise was vacant and I was maintaining it for the owner, rude nasty piece of work she was.Census collectors, honest ?.http://www.themercury.com.au/news/tasmania/census-crim-probe-abs-to-investigate-staff-with-a-past/news-story/cc6d869079ee7bb763ebb05cb67062b0Safe as houses.http://jbh.ministers.treasury.gov.au/media-release/039-2015/They knew this.http://www.asd.gov.au/publications/protect/preparing-for-responding-to-ddos-activities.htm

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 11:22:51 am
content: Still broken 24 hours later, not even a date given for when it will be back online.Internet Experts are saying there was no DDOS, as they didn't detect the mass of internet traffic required to do this.However we also have thishttp://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2016/08/10/census-ministers-website-goes-downNot sure who to believe on this, however we can still blame the government so it's all good.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2016, 11:19:00 pm
content: Blimey that David Kalisch (Chief Statistician) - is he a Ferengi?Yeah. Don't trust the bastards.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 02:37:42 am
content: Timelinehttp://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-10/census-night-how-the-shambles-unfolded/7712964

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 03:37:34 am
content: I honestly don't get the big issue with it. Every day people give out their personal information on social media, they carry it around in their wallets, it's freely accessible on the electoral roll (for most people) not to mention the huge number of online and retail stores who hold information about their customers (in a far less secure fashion). I think a lot of people are having a whinge and whine for the sake of it. I don't care if the ABS has my name, big deal? I'm not even required to supply my date of birth.Now people are carrying on about the Census being "hacked" which is complete BS. I also find it hard to believe that a DDoS attack was (solely) responsible from bringing the site to its knees. I think the answer is simple: Typical Government department: Lack of proper planning, lack of experienced engineers and too many managers involved in the decision and systems implementation process.According to the ABS's ownwebsite, they expected a peak load of 250 Census submissions per second with a total system capacity of 360 submissions per second. That translates to a capacity of 15,000 (est. peak)/21,600 (max.) submissions per minute or 900,000 (est. peak)/1,296,000 (max.) per hour. What's the population of Australia? Over 24 million people.They could have learnt something from the first online Census in Australia which was in 2006 when ABS launched "eCensus". I remember completing it then and recall it being very slow (but it worked eventually). Even in 2006 between the hours of 2000-2100hrs, more than 72,000 submissions were received which equated to about 8.4% of households choosing to lodge online instead of filling out the paper form (which everyone got by default anyway). In a single minute (at 2047hrs on 08/08/2006), ABS reported 55,000 simultaneous users, more than double ABS's peak estimation 10 years later!No wonder the thing went down!

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 03:43:09 am
content: Except most households would be 2 parents and 2.x kids. You can divide the number by 4 now.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 03:47:24 am
content: Quote from: nowlan on August 11, 2016, 03:43:09 amThat's why I was being generous with my figures. The average number of people per household in 2013-2014 was 2.6 people.Source: ABS Housing Occupancy and UtilisationYou could probably work out a rough required system capacity on the back of a napkin...24 million people in Australia. Let's round the average number of people per household up to 3 based on the last 20 years of figures (just because we're nice). That leaves roughly 8 million households who need to complete the Census.For arguments sake 20% of those 8 million households will lodge the Census on a day other than Census day, leaving 6.4 households who will submit their Census online on the day of the Census.Let's further reduce that number by 20% because those households for some reason didn't fill out the Census online (did it via the paper form, forgot to, refused to, homeless, dog chewed the router, whatever). That leaves 5.12 million households.Already you're above and beyond ABS's 2016 peak estimation and very much nearing the theoretical system limit. That doesn't even take into account for DDoS attacks, the condition and speed of Australia's internet infrastructure on the day, the number of users repeatedly clicking "refresh" because they are impatient etc... etc...

author: wasyoungonce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 05:54:36 am
content: Well its (the census site) working now but for how long?Anyway...that pretty much puts electronic voting to bed for the next 15 years! Not going to happen anytime soon. Back to the 1.2metre long senate paper...! Sigh!

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 05:57:01 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 11, 2016, 03:37:34 amA "modern" web browser is using parallel requests to pull data to "improve the user experience" (tragedy of the commons),Quote from: https://www.giftofspeed.com/fewer-http-requests/So you need huge connection capacity for the front end servers providing the interface. Under high latency you can also have multiple repeated requests pile up in the lower level protocols, a server can quickly fall over if it can't keep up with demand.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 06:05:07 am
content: This fellow below has posted an explanation as to what may have occurred, I have no clue, nor do I care.https://twitter.com/riskybusiness

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 06:34:28 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on August 11, 2016, 06:05:07 amHa ha ha! That's hilarious.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 07:07:55 am
content: Census where in Italy? I tell you what:Last time our major ordered an "energetic census" so they can keep record of your domestic appliances. If you did that they will have given you a certificate so you can sell your house. The certificate costs a lot and they claimed it was for "free".They actually had a great idea, but they used it in the wrong way: the records were used against you to check if you had paid the TV-tax and their intent was to sue an entire city. In order to avoid a giant riot the government included the TV-tax on the electric bill with a discount.Not to mention all the crime-related things: some use your data for passport falsification, or worse: someone sings a contract and specify your address as the location where to send their bill (and you don't know how many old-mans are scammed in this way)... Never, Ever give your data.They likely will use them against you at some point, and if they don't have any records, they are blind.

author: XynxNet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 10:52:07 am
content: It was hilarious. I had to fill out an australian census form as a tourist.I really had to laugh about their workplace question for planing transportation systems.Direct flight from Darwin to my hometown would be great! But what to do about 20 hours traveltime to work?Seriously, why not just fill the census database with random data. It would propably be as usefull as polling tourist and it would be a lesser privacy invasion.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 11:04:23 am
content: Quote from: XynxNet on August 12, 2016, 10:52:07 amGIGOThe reason for the census is valid - so we need to give it some sort of chance.