Brand new analog scopes from Tektronix/Fluke/Agilent - are they still for sale? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2015, 07:45:04 pm
content: Probably not an easy find, but would some resellers still have brand new analog scopes from A-brands in stock?Note that a friend of me bought a brand new Fluke PM3082 a few months ago, which was still sealed in a carton box. The actual scope was sealed in a silver-metal-looking vacuum bag.The scope works like a charm, and I am a bit jealous now. Note that he only paid like 300 EUR for it.

author: PaulAm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2015, 08:17:55 pm
content: Probably you'll find them in surplus or when a company is cleaning out a lab. I know a guy who just ran across a number of NOS HP counters still in factory packaging. You need to be in the right place at the right time and get lucky to boot. Most retailers probably got rid of their stock once they stopped being produced.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2015, 09:19:46 pm
content: I am not a dealer, but I still have a brand newLEADER LBO-315 Oscilloscopenew in a box and never opened.This is the real small scope with real high quality knobs and controls and ultra sharp screen.I have two of these scopes in use all the time but this one jewel stayed all these years in its original box.Not an analog scope, But I also have oneTektronix THS720Pbrand new in box, just took the battery out a few years ago.And a third one is aFluke PM3394B, still sitting in its original holster.I just heard from my calibration lab, that Philips in my town found 100 pieces of the PM3365 scopes in their storage, all brand new and never used.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2015, 09:57:15 pm
content: Will they sell the Philips scopes? Through which channel?I am interested if the condition and the price is right.

author: SaabFAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2015, 09:59:31 pm
content: Well, it was the age before computers. Inventories were kept on stone-tablets and sometimes they lost a corner and entire stacks of stuff were forgottenNo, seriously. How does something like this happen (and can I still get one of them for my Philips-Collection^^)?

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2015, 10:14:18 pm
content: I will ask about details.The Philips building(s) in my town are very large and probably have a large basement where stuff can hide.The last talk was that they can NOT sell them, because by law they would be responsible for any warranty and selling an item that would not be listed in their accounting list would make it near impossible. And then ... to what price would they sell them. I suddenly understood, that this is not an easy task for a huge company and has a lot of legal obligations. Keeping in mind that the PM3365 was sold before Philips merged with Fluke, so technically they belong to Fluke but Fluke does not own this part of Philips. What a complicated nightmare. I suggested to just give them away....Well, I will ask again, when they are back from vacation.

author: SaabFAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2015, 10:21:20 pm
content: Well, if noone missed them so far, they could also magically disappear again, while at the same time their holiday/coffee-fund suddenly has huge donations out of nowhere

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2015, 11:21:46 pm
content: Maybe they can sell them for a symbolic price of 1 USD, and just charge the shipping costs?Then I will order several ones

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 12:15:28 am
content: I tweeted a Tek 2465B a few months back on ebay, NOS. Got replies that was quite common.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 12:16:52 am
content: That Leader is a sweet looking little scope!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 06:03:22 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 29, 2015, 07:45:04 pmOccasionally that happens, yes (although not from Agilent as they never made analog scopes if I remember right, the analog ones were all HP).QuoteI'm not sure if it's worth being jealous. If you're a collector then I guess a still unopened analog scope might well be an interesting find. But for practical purposes (i.e. as an EE) €300 isn't that great for an ~20yr old 100MHz 2Ch analog scope, and while it's "new" in that it hasn't been used before, being in a sealed box doesn't stop components like capacitors and even the plastics part from aging. It will also have vastly exceeded it's storage life, which means if the scope is sealed in a bag then the drier (i.e. silica gel bags) will probably be saturated, and depending on the environment it has been stored, there might even be beginning or progressing corrosion damage caused by humidity ingress.And even if it's in great condition, it's still analog scope, i.e. very limited compared to even bottom-of-the-barrel DSOs of today.If it's cheap (say less than €150) and comes with some kind of warranty then it could be a decent deal, but for €300 I don't think it is when for roughly the same money you can get a brand new Siglent SDS1102CNL/CML which these days is much more useful than an analog scope.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 06:30:38 am
content: Note that the PM3082 is a 100 MHz 4 Channel scopeI witnessed the unboxing of this scope, and can guarantee you that the vacuum sealing was quite impressive. It was packaged like a tank. Those days they really knew how to do proper packaging.I have never seen any packaging like that before.The silver-metal-looking vacuum seal around the scope itself, looked like the packaging they use for packaging an individual aspirinThere is 0% chance that humidity has come into the scope. And the vacuum sealing would also prevent the dry out of the caps I believe.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 06:33:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 30, 2015, 12:15:28 amDo you mean that you sold one on Ebay, or that you were looking for one on Ebay?Or did many distributors still carry this unit in NOS? Which distributors?How much was the asking price? I like to have a brand new analog scope with 4 channels.Does Tektronix also pack their scopes in a silver-metal-looking vacuum seal, or was only Fluke going to these extremes?

author: anotherlin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 06:58:54 am
content: If you guys have analog scope "new old stock" for sale, I'm definitely interested!

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 07:19:44 am
content: I do not see what is the benefit of buying an oscilloscope that has remained for 20 or 30 years without having been properly powered on and used.For electrolytic capacitors, it is very bad.With regard to the cathode ray tube, its lifetime is very large.I repaired a lot of analog scopes and I have had only one time to replace a CRT (It was a Tektronix 465, bad internal metallization of the screen).For switches and contacts, they are more subject to oxidation if they are not used.As these old scopes are no longer guaranteed, it is best to purchase a little worn oscilloscope than one who has never been used nor powered on as you are sure that it works.The scope in his original packaging may fail at the first power on.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 07:53:58 am
content: Regarding the raster on the PM3365. Is it correct that there is a 10% and 90% line?This is the first time that I see this. Not that standard I guess?It seems to make the reading harder. Why do they have this in the first place?Are the inputs floating? Or why can one provide connection with ground externally?

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 07:58:15 am
content: It's standart on analog oscilloscopes ...It is intended to measure rise time. (between 10 and 90% of amplitude)Input BNC's connectors are grounded, not floating.4mm ground connection is usefull to make good ground connection with others instruments, as function generator for example.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 08:17:40 am
content: No box, but unused :http://www.ebay.com/itm/2004-Tektronix-465M-100Mhz-2-Channel-Dual-TB-Oscilloscope-USM-425-V-1-NOS-/181669170536?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a4c538d68

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 08:20:18 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 30, 2015, 07:53:58 amMuch more common than you might think.These really helped to position a waveform for accurate risetime measurements back in the days of Analogue CRO's.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 08:24:38 am
content: Thanks for the provided information!Anyhow, let's move the discussion back to the original subject.If you have, or know somebody who has, one or more brand new analog scope(s) from an A-brand, still factory sealed, please comment here in this thread with more information.All brand new analog scopes, that are from an A-brand (Tektronix/Fluke/HP/Leader/Hitachi/etc.), and which are still factory sealed, are welcome

author: anotherlin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 09:01:38 am
content: Quote from: oldway on July 30, 2015, 07:19:44 amFrom a purely rational point of view, a little used, well taken care of, analog scope would be just fine.It's just a matter that in my case, I want to buy "new".I already have a digital scope, but if I can get my hand on an analog one for cheap, I would be happy.

author: dom0
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 09:27:57 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 30, 2015, 08:20:18 amIt gets even easier with a delayed/dual TB scope, you just position the main sweep so that it crosses 10 % on a vertical, then you delay the delayed until it crosses 90 on the same vertical. delay time = rise time.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 09:49:05 am
content: Quote from: dom0 on July 30, 2015, 09:27:57 amNice, never knew that trick, must try it when I have one of the old girls fired up.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 09:54:09 am
content: Quote from: anotherlin on July 30, 2015, 09:01:38 amBut the point is that you don't really get "new" if you buy a still sealed analog scope from the old days. You get "unused" but normal detoriation and ageing doesn't stop just because the scope was sitting in its box instead of a desk for 20+ years.In fact, chances are good that what you get with "new old stock" will actually be inferior than a well cared for used scope of the same type that has seen somewhat regular use.QuoteIf it's a brand name scope then "cheap" isn't often an option, if only for the number of clueless foolsthat bid ridiculous amounts on anything with the name "Tektronix" or "HP" on it on ebay.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 10:25:49 am
content: The vacuum sealing does a good job in preserving the scope, and results in a very high chance that all parts will be in working condition.

author: dom0
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 10:30:31 am
content: Very unlikely. All caps will have lost their formation by now, wouldn't surprise me if he gets a loud BANG if he just turns it on.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 10:34:11 am
content: The scope that my friend bought (Fluke PM3082) works like a charm!All channels have been individually tested. No problem whatsoever.Manufacturers didn't spare on high-quality parts at that time. Today it's all about cost reduction.The scope is crisp white! It looks and works the same as when it came out of the factory.Vacuum sealing does magic!

author: anotherlin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 10:45:04 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on July 30, 2015, 09:54:09 amAs I said before, buying new is not about being "purely rational".I personnaly own an Hameg 0722 70MHz digital scope, which is quite good material.However, for my hobbyist use, a 40 euros used HM203 would do just as fine or even better.It's like why people buy BMW for daily commute, whereas a Toyota would do just as well and for much cheaper (buy and usage).

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 10:47:50 am
content: QuoteNon senseThere is no vacuum sealing at all...this would be the worst thing you could do for electrolytic capacitors leakages, creating a negative pressure between internal pressure of the capacitors and packaging.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 11:37:30 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 30, 2015, 10:25:49 amThat's BS. Scopes are not "vacuum sealed" for various reasons, and even if they were, after 20+ years of diffusion there wouldn't be much of a vacuum left. Basic physics.QuoteGood for him, but he was probably just lucky.QuoteNonsense. These Philips scopes weren't made in the 60's where over-specification was a pretty common thing, they were made in the '90s which were as cost-conscious times as the modern days. All of these scopes were made to a price-point, and it's pretty naive to think that they were made from something akin to pixie dust unaffected by ageing and deterioration.Also, parts weren't really better back then, in fact, modern parts are often much more reliable than their older equivalents, all while often also performing better. And the reason the modern parts can regularly be a lot cheaper as well is simply because of technical progress, improvements in manufacturing processes and better/easier access to cheap labor (i.e. China).QuoteNot surprising, since the discoloration of most plastic parts is due to UV radiation from exposure to sunlight, which for obvious reasons was absent from a boxed scope.QuoteYeah, right.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 03:43:49 pm
content: I didn't mean a complete vacuum of course. That is of course impossible and would lead to implosionThe packaging looks like how they pack medicine tablets. It avoids humidity and preserves the product better than if it would be in open air.I think we can all agree that this silver-metal-looking vacuum-like packaging contributes to a longer shelf life time. However it is not 100% fail safe. To put it in scientific terms: this kind of packaging is a necessary but not a sufficient requirement to guarantee a long shelf life time.Given that the original sales price of these scopes was in the range of 2500-5000 EUR or even higher, one counts on good parts. For sure these parts will be higher quality than a brand new 500 EUR value scope. At least they should, if the manufacturer is a responsible vendorYes, probably there is some luck involved as well. That's why the price should not be astronomously high. But for 300 EUR I would be willing to gamble, and especially for these Philips warehouse finds, which most likely will be sold for a symbolic priceAnd then there is still the unboxing experience which you get with these factory sealed scopes. That on it's own is an experience, which you never come even close to with a second hand scopeThis experience gets even better if the scope turns on and shows a horizontal line on the raster =) No comments on the experience when the scope would not turn on. Bummer!

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 04:32:39 pm
content: Quote from: dom0 on July 30, 2015, 10:30:31 amNo way. We are not talking about a radio from 1920s. The leakage current increases a little, but that doesn't cause a bang.

author: BillW50
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 07:10:10 pm
content: Well for starters, I am far from knowing everything. So we got that out of the way. But what I do know is oxygen is highly corrosive. Keep out fresh oxygen away and that is most of the battle right there. And as far as firing up old electrolytic capacitors... I don't know? I had very good luck firing up old ones from the 70's without a problem. And since the 70's, I only had one electrolytic go bang! And I don't know, it was about 15 years old is my guess. I don't remember any damage to the circuit or anything. Just replace the cap and all is well again.What I am saying is that in my experience the scare is highly overrated. Sure it could happen. But how often? I would love to hear stories about bad luck with old electrolytic capacitors. As it doesn't look very common to me. I have no doubt that they maybe out of spec by their old age. But they probably do a pretty good job for many years to come.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 10:58:23 am
content: Any news from Philips Germany on their upcoming NOS warehouse sale?

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 10:03:13 am
content: Called them yesterday, everyone is on vacation!Will try again in two weeks

author: anotherlin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 10:25:47 am
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on August 01, 2015, 10:03:13 amThe World is falling apart, germans are becoming as lazy as the frenchs !

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 10:32:17 am
content: In Sweden it is even worse. Some companies, even multinationals, almost completely shutdown for 2 months during the summer holidays. They have to keep the support department running, but in practice this usually means 1 person. I believe that nobody would want to be in the position of that person

author: dom0
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 11:57:40 am
content: Quote from: anotherlin on August 01, 2015, 10:25:47 amNot everything is wörk here... although you sometimes get the feeling!

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 01:48:56 pm
content: Quote from: dom0 on August 01, 2015, 11:57:40 amOh, yes, I too sometimes get that feeling that it is work work work!An old saying in Germany is:"Schaffe, schaffe, Häusle baue, Und net nach de Mädle schaue!"Work, work, build a house and do not look at the girls!

author: hneve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 05:26:59 pm
content: QuoteThat sounds like southern Germany, right?

author: SaabFAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 05:29:19 pm
content: And it isAlthough I didn't know about that "Mädle"-Part^^

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 01:53:21 am
content: @HighVoltage:Please keep us posted when the Germans are back from holidaysCould you also ask them if they have other NOS models in stock? (e.g. PM3382, PM3394)The PM3394 looks very neat in design, and a NOS unit would fit perfectly on my bench

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 02:26:57 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on August 07, 2015, 01:53:21 amReally?Last century maybe.Wouldn't you rather have MOST of those buttons in a menu?And if the're all mechanical?

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 02:40:34 am
content: Have you considered the General Radio Type 687? It may fit better on your desk with the vertical form factor.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 07:50:39 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on August 07, 2015, 01:53:21 amWell, I posted pictures in a different thread of my collection of PM3394B scopes.For some high voltage measurements, they are better than any other scope that I have tested.On one of my benches I have 6 of the PM3394B in use at once for analysing purpose.Even 20 yeras later, they are great scopes.And when I builöd test stands for clients, I am usually integrating PM3394B (4 Channel) and PM3380B (2 Channel) scopes.

author: dom0
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 08:32:33 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 07, 2015, 02:26:57 amYou are aware that these scopes have full digital controls and on-screen menus, yes?

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 08:53:11 am
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on August 07, 2015, 07:50:39 amCould you provide the link to these pictures? When you build these test stands, you source new PM3394B and PM3380B scopes? Or second hand? Where is your NOS supplier for this candy?

author: Augustus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 01:02:41 pm
content: Quote from: hneve on August 01, 2015, 05:26:59 pmIt's an old Swabian song, composed after the war, in the 50s, early 60s I think. Everyone, especially the Swabians, was busy rebuilding the country, wörk wörk wörk wörk wörk, no time for anything else, not even for the girls, apparentlyIt's even on YT, though in a slightly more realistic version

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 01:20:42 pm
content: Quote from: dom0 on August 07, 2015, 08:32:33 amNo I wasn't, but why so many buttons?It took a while to get used to menus within menus with DSO's but I'd never go back to a CRO as my main scope now.I fondly remember them as a great learning scope and if nothing else I'm thankful for what I learnt using the several I owned.I've got a PM 3070 and PM 3217 stashed away to fix, guess I'll learn at lot more about these scopes then.Gave up CRO years ago, more for the sake that I got tired of fixing them all the time.

author: dom0
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 01:52:09 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 07, 2015, 01:20:42 pmDedicated button for every major channel specific function for each channel (the grouped buttons) plus dedicated buttons for major functions like trigger, time bases, operating mode, cursors.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 02:26:13 pm
content: Quote from: dom0 on August 07, 2015, 01:52:09 pmBuilt by engineers, for engineers! Geprufte Sicherheit!

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 03:05:24 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 07, 2015, 01:20:42 pmThis high end version of the series was something very special and still is today.There is not one button too many.And this makes this scope so easy to use.The on screen real time math was unmatched at the timeI will take some detailed pictures, when I am back from my current trip.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 03:14:02 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on August 07, 2015, 08:53:11 amI am traveling and do not have my normal laptop with me. When I am back in the lab, I will make some pictures.There was a time when I bought every single one that became available.But one time I got really lucky and bought 10 of the PM3394B brand new out of a US government surplus. The shipping to Germany was more expensive than the scopes.Not only that, these 10 scopes had all hardware and software options, something I had never seen before.Keep in mind, that these scopes cost as much as a car, when they came out.Pictures coming soon.I probably still have 15 of them in my storage room for implementation for future test stands.For certain applications, I would not even know, of what to use today.And I really do love my Agilent/Keysight scopes.I have one application that I would not be able to use any modern scope for and the PM3394B works perfectly.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 01:42:08 am
content: Please reserve a brand new Philips PM3340 for me!I even consider to take two of them if they are New Old Stockhttp://www.amplifier.cd/Test_Equipment/other/PM3320A.html

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:59:14 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on August 08, 2015, 01:42:08 amIt is the PM3394Bthat you want to look for.And then make sure you have at least the additional Memory and the MATH options installed and the latest firmware. Only on the klatest firmware did they fix many software issues for the RS232 and the GPIB communication.

author: SaabFAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 11:21:34 am
content: I have tried to get my hands on the PM3394-Scopes several times now, but they almost always go slightly beyond my budget^^What is it that makes them so special, btw. that there are certain applications where only these scopes can be used effectively? And what are these applications?Is there a possibility to upgrade the Firmware and retrofit the Memory-Option? Perhaps even build an aftermarket-solution to add the memory? I suspect it is a PCB that is put into the scope with some 7400-Logic and SRAM-Chips on it. If these Boards are nowhere to be found, it should be possible to build them based on the schematics in the service-manual, correct (assuming the Service-Manuals for the PM3394 contain the same level of detail the SM for the PM3320A does)?

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 11:54:58 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on August 08, 2015, 01:42:08 amPM3340 belongs to the same family as the PM3320, PM3323 and PM3310.They are 100% digital oscilloscopes without analog option and it was the start of Philips in the field of digital oscilloscopes. (the first model was the PM3310 which I have the prototype of the plant that was used in product development)A truck of components, 16kgs... For me, that's a white elephant for just 500 MS / Sec ... These were the beginnings of the DSO technique, nothing to do with current technology.Regarding the PM3394, it is a good oscilloscope but DSO option is completely overwhelmed by what is currently available on the market.That's why I preferred a PM3094 which is only analog. (4 channels, 200Mhz)

author: SaabFAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 01:08:01 pm
content: I rather like my PM3320A, Its a really nice scope I often use when I'm dealing with analog stuff or something that requires termination (don't have a 50ohm BNC-Terminator, but the PM3320A has built in terminators that can be switched on), and the Random Sampling Method allows a much more detailed view on some repetitive signals than my DS1054Z does. In fact, the "Truck of component" is what makes the scope so interesting to me: Putting a really fast ADC behind a fast amplifier is not difficult (students do it and sell the results on Ebay^^), designing an aquisition-system that spans 3 large PCBs, uses P2CCDs to allow the use of a rather slow ADC and a DSP made out of 7400 logic + 1 very early FPGA, also requiring 2 Boards, and still deliver accurate results is a much more impressive feat. Also makes for a great learning experience when checking/repairing/calibrating. I think, I learned more about electronics trying to fix a broken PM3320A than with all the Arduino-Experiments I did combined.Btw. How does the Tek 24XX-Series compare to the analog PM308X/9X Series?

author: dom0
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 02:07:27 pm
content: You have both low-cost and high-end non-modular scopes in the 2000 series. For example, the 2225 is a typical low-cost scope: A couple dozen MHz bandwidth, two channels, one time base, mechanical switches. OTOH there are high-end (80s high-end) DSOs and CROs in there, too. 2467, 2440. I think there was also a mixed-domain scope (combiscope).

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 03:00:49 pm
content: QuoteIn the latest development of analog oscilloscopes, measurement functions were added and others functions as calibration, settings memory and autoset.This has cost analog oscilloscope one greatest advantage he still has today: simplicity of use.This is in my opinion the weak point of Tek 24xx and even more of PM308x / 9x.At the time they were designed, the benefits were worth it, but now, not anymore.These benefits are now available on all DSO, even low end, with a lot more performance.If you need these functions, use a DSO, not a CRO !Therefore, I would like to correct what Dave said : 24xx Tektronixwerethe best portable analog oscilloscopes, but currently they are no longer because what we can now expect from a CRO has changed.The Tek 24xx and PM308x/9x have lost the simplicity, both in use and at the level of circuit design and repair.For this reason, it would not be my choise if I had to buy an analog scope now.I would prefer:Tektronix 465B or 2235(A)HP1740AHameg HM605Tek24xx are 2+2 channels and PM3094 is (true) 4 channels.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 04:20:51 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on August 08, 2015, 11:54:58 amPM3320A, PM3323A and PM3340A (the 2GHz variant) were the first DSO I've ever used (in the days these models were current), and actually were the reason I mostly abandoned analog scopes for good for my work. 250MSa/s (PM3320) and 500MSa/s (PM3323, can't remember what the sample rate was for the PM3340) real-time sampling rate was pretty good back in 1988, plus they offered 10bit vertical resolution, four separate sample memories with 4kpts each, plus optional FFT and digital filter. The PM3340A also had a nifty eye diagram mode.And all of them had a numerical keyboard, something I miss on DSOs to this day (yes, I know some Teks have them, but I don't want a Tek).QuoteThat's not really true, as these scopes work exactly as any modern DSO does. And speaking about specs, even a modern-day Rigol DG1054z does only 250MSa/s in 4Ch mode and 500MSa/s in 2Ch mode, plus it's only an 8bit scope. Even maths capabilities are comparable. Of course the Rigol is smaller, has more memory, higher waveform rates and warranty, but I'd say if its in good condition and not too expensive then a PM3320/PM3323 could still make a great beginner's scope.

author: dom0
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 04:35:32 pm
content: I think he's referring to implementation rather than principle. Of course the principle of real-time DSOs didn't really change (neglecting analog CCD storage for the moment) since their inception, but the implementation techniques changed, drastically. In the 80s they used discrete logic and rudimentary programmable logic devices like GALs or PALs. Today all logic is concentrated in one or more FPGAs or ASICs. Expensive RAM isn't spread out across boards with discrete decoders, but is one of the cheapest items on the BOM and readily available.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 05:18:57 pm
content: Quote from: dom0 on August 08, 2015, 04:35:32 pmYou're probably right.

author: Bill158
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:06:17 pm
content: :-+I just picked up a Tektronix 7934 500MHz storage scope on ebay for US$181. Looks brand new in every respect. It had been packed in a silver vapor/mylar "Marvelseal360" around the Tek box with another box around the Tek box and the outside box was exactly right for fit around the Tek box. On the inside seal was a Raytheon label and on the outside box was another Raytheon label that matched the inside one, even Serial Number. Inside was the original packing material/foam inserts was all original like Tek would have shipped it when the scope was made. There was a Calibration sticker on it indicating a Cal in 1993 from Raytheon Quality Control. The operating manual, green CRT filter (grey already installed), power cord and a return post card to send to Tektronix for the complete Service Manual. Not even going to try to send that postcard in. No plugins however as expected. Another label on the scope was "Contract Material / contract #xxxx". So my guess right now is that this was bought with money to Raytheon from the US Government for some project but was never issued for use. I was a little afraid that the caps/some compenents would be bad, but when I turn it on it worked perfectly. This little jewel cost US$16k in the Tek 1991 catalog. Another example of my government building a $600 toilet seat or a buying a $400 hammer.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/Smileys/default/icon_smile_thumbsup.gifBill

author: dom0
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:10:48 pm
content: The 7934 is kinda historic landmark for being the fastest analog storage scope ever made.

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:58:23 pm
content: Quote from: Bill158 on August 08, 2015, 07:06:17 pmI think we need get out of the scope business all together

author: dom0
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 08:35:57 pm
content: And I consider moving to the USYesterday a color LeCroy 4 ch / 500 MHz / 500 kpts (LC-something-something) sold for a mere 180 €. (Shipping to, well, here would have cost a similar three-figure number)

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 08:03:36 am
content: Quote from: dom0 on August 08, 2015, 08:35:57 pmBeen there, done that for many year in California and other states!And I do miss it !It was paradise, if it comes to buying used equipment, like no comparison.I had a business liquidator about 1 mile away and he had a warehouse full of stuff that he had no idea of what it was. Complete laboratory equipment of all kinds. Everything from very small solder irons to huge wave soldering machines. Well, with the advents of the financial crisis on 2008, even this company folded. Must have been the best day ever for those who bought stuff from him at that time.Importing stuff these days to Germany only makes sense for very special equipment, because of the hassle, fees and shipping cost. But still, from time to time I do it.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 12:43:54 pm
content: When are the Germans at Philips back from holidays?

author: SaabFAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 08:39:39 pm
content: I would think in about a week or so. Then summer-break in schools is over.

author: Capt. Apparatus
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 17, 2015, 12:22:09 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on July 30, 2015, 07:19:44 amInteresting anecdote for everyone, about a year ago I scored a nice used little Tektronix 2212 60 mhz digital analog scope with both the gpib and rs232 options on ebay for I think it was 80$ shipped, came from a college lab up in New Hapmshire or something. Anyhow it arrives I power it up and much to my dismay I find that most if not all the buttons were unresponsive to fiddly at best. At first I had thought maybe something had shorted out or blown on the board but nope, it turns out and I don't have the slightest idea how, but the contacts inside the little supposedly sealed switches had been oxidized/gunked up I almost want to say it was smokers residue or something equally grotty along those lines.Trying to source a spare board or replacement switches that would match the physical specifications was proving difficult (or expensive) so I decide to spend a couple of evenings over the weekend disassembling each, and every little switch and cleaning the tiny little dome contacts. Scope works like a dream now though so I'm satisfied.But, to make a long story short, yes dickey switches are a real drag.

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 09:39:11 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on July 29, 2015, 09:19:46 pmMay I ask if in your unit, does the LCD went real bad? Mine is almost unreadable, the SHARP replacement is almost the price of the scope nowadays...

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 10:22:09 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on July 29, 2015, 09:19:46 pmStill in its original holster, and vacuum sealed bag, plus the original carton box?What is the origin of this scope? Has it been stored in a warehouse?How much is your asking price?Do you have more of these in NOS condition?

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 03:28:04 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on August 18, 2015, 10:22:09 pmSorry to say, but this one is not for sale.But you can find them from time to time on ebay for a reasonable price in good conditionThis one here in Singapore needs a little work but looks okThe price seems a little highBut lately the prices have increased for these scopes.http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLUKE-PM3394B-AUTORANGING-COMBISCOPE-OSCILLOSCOPE-/361361912321?hash=item5422d93201

author: SaabFAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 01:38:25 pm
content: @HighVoltage, up to now I just assumed you were talking about Hamburg when you said that Philips found the PM3365 Scopes. Why I did that, I don't know, but just to be clear: Are we talking about Hamburg here?

author: dom0
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 01:58:53 pm
content: The PM3365 looks pretty much identical to the PM3350. I have a 3350, it's ... not a good scope in my opinion.

author: SaabFAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 02:55:22 pm
content: I had a PM3350 too, but it was really limited. I think, it was their first Combi-Scope with On-Screen Display and microprocessor-controlled Controls. Earlier Scopes had complete "Analog" controls, or only very limited digital controls.But according to the Manuals, the "facelift" (PM3365 among others) is much more sophisticated: They have advanced aquisition-modes, more measuring-options, higher analog bandwidth. And they also feature a equivalent-sampling mode. I don't know if the PM3350 had that, but I doubt it, as a 16Mhz signal looked very "Pixelated".The User-Interface is identical though, which is a good thing. It's clean, all functions have their own buttons. No digging through menus to get the signal on screen. And every press of a button yields immediate results, unlike the DS1104Z, which seems a bit sluggish to me. Especially if it has been running for some time.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 03:11:52 pm
content: The real improvements of the Philips scopes came with the introduction of the PM3394. This was a huge leap forward and was no longer comparable to the PM3365.But I did sell a few of the PM3365 to clients and they are still in use today and work perfectly for the intended purpose.

author: dom0
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 04:21:38 pm
content: By the way, are there any major differences between the PM3350 and the PM3350A (aside the 10 MHz increase in bandwidth?)

author: SaabFAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 04:38:03 pm
content: It appears to be part of the newer series of scopes with the mentioned updates. I found a Manual here that includes the PM3350A, 52A, 55, 65A, 67A, 75, 77:https://www.gearslutz.com/board/geekslutz-forum/912102-philips-fluke-pm3350a-operation-guide.html- First Post: Link to a Dropbox-File.What is interesting to me in that context: Is there a PM3365 (without the A)? And does it have the same limitations the PM3350 has?And, if there were 2 Versions of the PM3365 made, are the PM3365 Scopes found in Hamburg PM3365, or PM3365A?

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 06:53:13 pm
content: Looking forward to the feedback from Philips Hamburg

author: SaabFAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 06:37:03 pm
content: Any new information about the scopes?

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 07:05:34 pm
content: Quote from: SaabFAN on September 09, 2015, 06:37:03 pmI will see the people tomorrow.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 10:56:19 am
content: Ok and sorry for some bad news...I just came back from a meeting with the people who had told me about the PM3365 and all the scopes are all gone for a few month already. They have been "fachgerecht entsorgt" as the Germans say, meaning they have been professionally recycled because nobody higher up wanted to take any responsibility. May be that is how it is these days with these large corporations, it is not meaning anything to them.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 10:28:00 pm
content: That means that we have to wait for another treasure like this.Anybody who finds such a deal out there, please report in this posting here

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 09:34:26 pm
content: Reposting this topic to see if somebody has discovered a stock of brand new analog scopes from Tektronix/Fluke/Agilent in the mean time