Am I the only person that doesn't like the CLOUD? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 09:52:31 am
content: Add your own words!

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 10:12:54 am
content: cloud storage or cloud computing?don't like the first unless attached to the second.

author: jimon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 10:13:15 am
content: Clouds are good if you need to go from 1 server to 1000 servers in 1-2 minutes and you want to pay as less as possible for this (high load management). AWS (http://aws.amazon.com/) is extremely good on this. Also clouds are good if you want to try infiniband with rdma (40 gbit\s network) for "free" (10-20$)Clouds are bad because they could be compromised, but well, ANY hardware in this world can be compromised, ANY data in this world can be leaked and deciphered, just design your systems (or use of systems if you are only user) with this sane requirements and have rescue plans for critical situations.For example if my pc will die, I have copies of my data in web, if web clouds\servers will die, I have copies of my pc's, if both of them will die - I will find another guy with copies of my data, or lose this data forever

author: ozwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 10:17:57 am
content: Nope! I'm much happier keeping my data (and my customer's data) on my drives in my office (and on backup drives at home).Having said that, sometimes you aren't given a choice with some online services.Did you know that many banks are now sending loan applications overseas for (outsourced) credit analysis? Lot's of personal data in those applications. Worries me a lot!Ozwolf

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 10:30:00 am
content: You can use the cloud to store your own encrypted data, that takes care of the issue of data leaks or spying.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 10:46:53 am
content: Nope.All of my stuff is stored offline.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 12:35:45 pm
content: No, I'm not a big fan either:- the cloud service may be shut down any time for any reason- encryption is nice for storage but how can encrypted data be processed remotely?- any storage or processing outside a geographic region might be illegal for companies- the same as above, but also for non-local cloud service providers with datacenters in the local regionAn European stock company wouldn't be allowed to use any cloud service from an US based provider, even if the datacenter is located in the EU. There's currently a fight between MS and the US about the issue, because the US claims lawful access to data stored in MS' EU datacenters. And that violates EU laws. The whole EU market for the US cloud business is at stake. I doubt, that the US will back down.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 12:39:17 pm
content: Just don't upload pictures of yourself posing in the nude (or doing certain other things in the nude) and then give you password away to people pretending to be cloud maintenance men.Oh wait, unless you're a celebrity you're probably not that retarded.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 01:09:37 pm
content: Quote from: StonentAhhhhh .... that's me :-)

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 01:14:41 pm
content: Quote from: digsys on February 05, 2015, 01:09:37 pmMe too...

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 01:22:10 pm
content: Quote from: GK on February 05, 2015, 12:39:17 pmor a celebrity wannabeBut I don't like other companies havingmydata.On the other hand, my money is always in the hand of other companies....... they call themselves banks.

author: Tandy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 01:52:03 pm
content: Cloud file storage is useful for off-site backup and remote access to those files. However I much prefer to have the primary source of my files locally for both security and performance. It would be silly to use cloud storage as your only file storage facility as no matter how well managed and backed up there is always a risk of failure. Hard drive space is so inexpensive that it doesn't make sense not to have at least one local copy. Syncing local storage with cloud storage seems a convenient option.Cloud computing where you use a proprietary application that is on-line only is a recipe for disaster. Not only do you have the immediate issues such as what happens when your broadband dies or their servers crash, you have the problem of long term availability. I have several old software packages from long since dead companies that I have to keep an old windows xp virtual machine running so that I can load something in that old software. If your file is not something that can easily be converted into an alternative format and the company disappears over night, so does access to your files. At least when you get a copy to run locally you can keep an old system running so you can still access those old files, not an option with a dead cloud supplier.Cloud computing where you run your own software on their systems is viable, instead of having to buy all your own hardware you can run your software on the cloud platform and scale it as large as you need. As long as you have a copy of the software and data locally so that you can move to another provider if the one you are using goes out of business it is a smart way to avoid having to buy your own hardware with high up-front costs and having to maintain it yourself.So the short answer is, Cloud is only good if you can avoid lock-in.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 02:03:50 pm
content: I used to dislike the cloud quite a bit, but then I came to realize that I don't WANT to be in the storage business anymore. I don't want to manage my own servers anymore. I don't want to dink around with network hardware and all that.Spinning up some VMs and storage on AWS or Rackspace is FAR easier, FAR cheaper, FAR faster, and FAR more scalable than anything I could do on my own."The Cloud" is a no brainer.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 03:19:37 pm
content: When we got our replacement company laptops a few years ago, the IT dept installed an online backup program. I polled the other techs and the manager and no one decided to use it. All of our data is VERY proprietary and no one wanted to chance backing the info to the cloud. My manager actually laughed when I asked him if he was going to use it. I keep an external company hard drive attached to my docking station and I do weekly backups. I also burn the critical file folder backups to disc as a precaution. On my personal computer, only the OS and programs are on the internal hard drive. All my data is on an external hard drive and I burn to disc the important documents I don't want to lose. I don't want my head in the clouds, so to speak.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 04:53:12 pm
content: The cloud is great ! Provided it sits trapped in a box in my own home !I have multiple NAS blxes that replicate each other. No matter what computer i am on all my data is always there. My machines no longer store data locally with the exception of data under version control. The working set may be local but syncing to my own cloud is done .I simply use tortoiseSvN for those cases.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 05:15:38 pm
content: Given my background I definitely don't mind mainframes, they have their places and uses a PC* just can't compete with. But PC's also have their own niches mainframes can't compete with. There's not a chance I'm going to run public facing services on an in house server farm, but there's also no chance I'm going to make my computer into nothing but a dumb terminal and rely on someone else's machines to do all the real processing and storage.*And by PC I just mean the old definition of a personal computer, not a particular architecture/platform.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 05:24:45 pm
content: Any back up system can fail. I'd personally never use a cloud service for that.For backing stuff up, remember that those disks you "burn to" have a finite lifetime. Don't use or trust them for your primary back up. Hard drives eventually go bad and fail, and can also suffer from bit rot. Best to use something like a 3 disk rotation with one disk being rotated out and replaced every few years.And don't keep your eggs all in one basket, have an off site back up in case your house or business location is destroyed in some unfortunate and unexpected disaster.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 06:03:10 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on February 05, 2015, 05:24:45 pmWhy not? They guarantee things, if you choose a good one. They're geographically redundant, and physically and electrically redundant beyond that.Quote from: rdl on February 05, 2015, 05:24:45 pmIt is funny how you say the cloud is bad, but recommend DVDs or BluRay disks (with the appropriate caveat.)Someone a few posts up said that they keep hard drive copies all over the place, and that the cloud wasn't secure enough... That person needs to learn more about security.Quote from: rdl on February 05, 2015, 05:24:45 pmAgreed.Look, the cloud isn't anything other than you paying a company to very cheaply store files for you.The amount of resistance I am reading in here about the cloud tells me that I am most definitely correct in my position to use it, selectively.Multiple positions stated here have been backed up by feelings and not by facts.Every single one of you knows an attorney or can find one in the phone book. Read the terms of service and other agreement(s) such as the service level agreement between the customer and the provider, and then have an attorney look at it, and determine for yourself if a particular "cloud" provider meets your needs.There is no yes/no answer for "the cloud" because "the cloud" isn't a single entity. It's a thousand entities each with their own differing guarantees, SLAs, and AUPs.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 06:53:07 pm
content: Sorry, I should have mentioned that there are other reasons more important to me that I won't use a cloud back up service. It's an individual choice for everyone I suppose.I did not recommend any kind of optical disk as a back up, though I guess saying "Don't use or trust them for your primary back up." does imply they might be useful for something else.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 07:58:41 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on February 05, 2015, 06:53:07 pmCan I ask what those reasons are? Just curious.The NSA being one, I'm sure, and one could encrypt before they upload to fix that pretty easily. In fact I think one could purpose a Raspberry Pi or some other small single board PC to do the encryption transparently for you as you upload & download.

author: opty
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 08:08:12 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on February 05, 2015, 09:52:31 amWell, I certainly DO NOT TRUST the CLOUD (I keep my private data on my private local backup)butI still find it useful in certain cases: my business server is in the cloud (cheaper than local hosting)

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 08:09:57 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on February 05, 2015, 10:12:54 amGood point, but to be accceptable, both should offer the simple, unpaid option of moving/copying your resources locally for future security.No use using online service ABC, if yuo can only save .abc files locally - then the cloud app/sevice is taken away in two years.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 08:21:44 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 05, 2015, 06:03:10 pmHmmm, if you accept that infrastructure / carrier grade technology is usually under 'Five-9's SLA (99.999%) uptime - and can still fail catastrophically in less frequent events... you - as one of let's saya millionmembers... has a very real chance of losing some or all your online resources over a period of time.It may be your cat boarding schedule, or your bank details - or both.ThatFive-9's usually only covers the actual availability of the service - it often doesn't guarantee security or perpetual presence of anything.And you're paying the ISP/telco in the middle to let you access / depend on someone else that you don't know.-- ok I have trust issues!

author: Kevman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 08:31:00 pm
content: My upload is less than a megabit- something like 600k, so I'm VERY limited what I could use the cloud for personally.I tell people that to mentally replace the word "cloud" with the phrase "computers you don't own." If it still sounds like a good idea, then its fine.Lots of people are allwhen their phone says "Upload these pictures to The Cloud!" but "Upload these pictures to computers you don't own!" and its suddenlyeven though they're functionally identical sentences.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 09:05:43 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 05, 2015, 07:58:41 pm1. I have no need for this type of service.2. I don't trust them.3. As far as I'm concerned the safety and security is unproven.4. I'm a suspicious, grumpy old man.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 10:05:53 pm
content: All fine answers.I am also suspicious. However, I base service acceptability on the legal documents the service offers me which describe their obligations and what my expectations should be.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 10:32:45 pm
content: Most people grossly overestimate their ability to provide secure, reliable, and scalable storage and computing services. Everything has its issues, but I have far more faith in AWS and similar services than in any go-it-alone, homegrown IT solution.

author: Noise Floor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 11:45:14 pm
content: Like all things, depends on the application.But to your concern, no I don't trust cloud solutions fully and believe the marketing of them to be exaggerated to make everyone feel like "everyone is doing it".

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 12:13:38 am
content: So far, I have only seen people "like" the cloud if they have large data sets that need to be served to multiple data consumers.Is there anything the cloud can offer a single user who only ever works on a single device?

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 01:40:05 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on February 06, 2015, 12:13:38 amPortability & vulnerability

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 02:04:16 am
content: OK, so all of you going on about security concerns need to start citing something or you're just talking out of your bottoms. "Bad feelings" don't count.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 05:10:25 am
content: For a business standpoint the Cloud (as in Cloud Computing) makes a lot of sense if you provide web based services. You might get very high peaks at release times then it settles to say 10% of the spike capacity.The alternative would be to purchase those servers and backbone infrastructure that can deal with the peak and then you have 90% of your assets just sitting idle. Later when you need to upgrade you have to upgrade them all, so renting computing from AWS, Google, Terramak, Azure, RackSpace, etc (about 10 mayor ones with over $1 Billion revenues per year which you know they are not going to disappear under your feet) at pretty competitive prices.For home use, it's silly because a virtual cloud computer with virtual GPUs streaming data to your Ethernet enabled TV with keyboard and mouse will cost you more than a dedicated system at home if you use it often.Then again Google for example only charges per usage so if you use the system rarely you always have an up to date system accessible from any H.264 decoding networked appliance. But of course you can't use it to program your dev kits.As for connectivity, being close to the backbone gives you fast access to the internet, so as long as you can stream to your PC with lowish latency then it's transparent.There are also benefits when you expose your works to outsourcing, because they can work on your project but they really don't have access to the data, they can only manipulate it to do their tasks.And of course there are more benefits, but this is just a first glance.It's always been a cycle between mainframes and desktops (remember x windows terminals) now we are getting to a centralize cycle since the Cloud computing resources will become cheaper than owning your own similar system with processing on demand. Later desktops will find some innovation that will make them king again.So there is a place for the Cloud, maybe not for most yet but it might in the near future before it all flips back to desktops and home computers being cheaper.My feeling is that we are getting into a commodity cycle, you need 100 virtual Quadro cards on your virtual computer for 1 hour? so be it, only pay for that hour and then you are back to a more trivial system, all on demand.With the money involved surely there is demand for it.

author: MrZwing
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 07:39:38 am
content: I like the possibility to store some files in the cloud like dropbox, but I HATE slowly being forced to use it with my phone (google) and computer (microsoft) always ask "Hi store everything about you life on our servers.... Trust us plz". Thinking of making a small computer like a Pi as a private cloud storage so I don't have to rely on other unknown services.I might be a bit paranoid but I like to try too keep my personal info off the internet. and don't get me started with cloud computing where they try to fool us with "oh you can buy a cheap box to hook up to a super computer to play high end games" when I know what they really say is "buy a cheap little computer and then you have to pay us to get enough power to play pong or pac-man, high-def AAA-games? well that won't come cheap".Long live Private Hardware!MrZ

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 01:17:32 pm
content: I like "OwnCloud"Because the data is on my own disks.Otherwise i'm avoiding cloud as storage , and "Apple phone backup etc"I do have a VPS based server though , but for specific purposes./Bingo

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 01:38:40 pm
content: "The Cloud" is fine, but most cloud services aren't.I'll happily spin up VPSes everywhere to serve whatever needs I have. I'm not, however, going to trust a magical cloud backup service; if I use one, it's to store data I've encrypted myself.In short: If it runs my own software, or my own software interfaces with it, it's fine. Otherwise, no thanks. And the IoT is mostly dumb, because there is no provision for running your own server - and I'm not going to have my lightbulbs connect to the internet.(And for those that go "But it's more accessible to just push stuff to Dropbox, etc!" - well I don't much like leaving the house, so eff off.)

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 02:00:08 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 06, 2015, 04:17:18 amNo, they do not. Not when there are facts available. Facts trump feelings.Quote from: wilfred on February 06, 2015, 04:17:18 amThen you go online and you ask someone. Or, you contact the provider in question.I am so over this "a regular person can't be expected to do X" statement I keep seeing everywhere. I read it as something between "I don't want to do X" and "I'm too stupid to do X." I can't argue with the laziness portion, but if you're lazy, just say you're lazy so people can stop wasting time trying to help you. People that can form the thought "I'm too stupid to do X" and type it out, simply aren't.Too long have people hidden beneath the "eh, I can't" shelter. Fuck you. Get up and do it.Not you specifically, wilfred.I'm using the improper form of "you" meaning "whomever reads this."

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 02:30:49 pm
content: It is bad enough that NSA is sticking it's nose into my personal emails (yes Google, I blame you), I dont need them to stick it into my files.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 02:32:23 pm
content: Blame the US Congress for this. The NSA just does what it does. Congress okayed it.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 03:09:46 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 06, 2015, 02:32:23 pmYou know, millions of people were and are killed because "I just do what I was told, this is my job, you should blame the system". Not to mention, even if (remote chance) they are just "protecting the US soil, and looking for turrists", there really was no point of tapping Angela Merkel's phone. She is not a terrorist. And this is jut the tip of the iceberg.Really, you can point at people, that they are responsible. The facts are: Your country breaks international laws, repeatedly, on a massive scale. Cloud is just another accessory for this.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 03:19:58 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 06, 2015, 02:32:23 pmTechnically they didn't otherwise the NSA's actions wouldn't have been illegal. Just because no one has been prosecuted doesn't mean they haven't broken the law. If I'd have done what the NSA, GCHQ, Australia, New Zealand or Canada had been doing I'd have disappeared and had a secret "trial." If I'd have accidentally done what HSBC knowingly did I'd be lucky to end up in America's illegal concentration camp in Cuba. The whistleblowers who did the right and legal thing have had more shit than those who broke the laws, i.e. they got some shit.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 04:51:08 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 06, 2015, 02:32:23 pmI see more pull from NSA than push from Congress.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 04:58:28 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 06, 2015, 02:04:16 amIt's the old I-don't-have-a-good-counter-argument-so-I-will-set-a-high-bar-for-the-other-side trick.It's their data and they can use whatever criteria to decide if they like the cloud or not. Same applies to you.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 05:19:25 pm
content: Zapta, yes, of course.My point is that people aren't making decisions based on facts. That's their prerogative, certainly, but don't declare "The Cloud" bad because your gut ate too many enchiladas last night.Who runs "The Cloud?" Who owns it?You CAN'T have an opinion on "The Cloud" because there isn't just one. There are literally thousands of cloud providers and they ALL have different terms of service. Many even allow you, the customer, to determine where your data is stored, how it is replicated, and some even force you to keep your own encryption keys, so that neither the provider nor any three-letter government agency can decrypt your stuff.But I'm supposed to distrust that because "TEH CLOUDZ IS BAD MMKAY!"

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 05:39:56 pm
content: I don't like people talking about the cloud.Usually clueless managerist clerks, just signed some dont-know-what-contract for some dont-know-what-service.My stone-age-response to their retarded sentenses is usually: Is your data stored in a tier-2 or tier-3 datacentre?Heum. Heum.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 05:47:04 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 06, 2015, 05:19:25 pmErm, even amongst those of us who are... shall we say dubious given the inability of the amazingly cash, and though I don't like to admit it, skill rich companies like Apple to make their cloud offerings secure there was a general consensus of "depends what you're using it for."Until the Fappening happened most would have thought there was no chance of anything like that happening to Apple, I personally think that's the only breach of iCloud's security that hit the news. I doubt a single of the "big players" haven't had their fare share of cracks never become knowledge of more than those who had to try and fix it. Doesn't stop me using cloud storage though, I just don't put anything I wouldn't want my mother seeing on oneQuote from: Galenbo on February 06, 2015, 05:39:56 pm(Most) managers just know that it's a "new" buzzword that'll make their boss happy to hear. They don't care that for some tasks it's a step backwards and for others it's old (or ancient) ideas finally coming of age, and worse of all even if they do they don't care which one their pet toy falls into as long as it can be marketed.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 08:25:54 pm
content: Not when i'm forced to use it for no good reason.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 12:10:41 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 06, 2015, 05:19:25 pmThe thread wasnotstarted to bash cloud security, but the very fact we are being asked to pay extra for what is fundamentally 40-year old 'technology' with lipstick applied.What happens to the data or who owns it is almost irrelevant if security is well managed by the data-owner, but paying a premium to use something that in reality adds very little to a well organised data/comms/storage user seems to be 'big business at work. Nothing more, nothing less.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 03:19:06 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on February 07, 2015, 12:10:41 amcomputing in general is decades old technology with lipstick applied.it costs money to power servers and buy disks. not sure why you think it should be free.im not a storage, networking, or security expert. i know enough to know when i see something bad, same as when i go to a restaurant. i cant cook, but i know bad food when i taste it. i like to eat out once in a while, and i like to know that photos and videos of my kids are backed up in multiple geographies. sorry.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 04:31:31 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 07, 2015, 03:19:06 amNice analogy with food. But food's rarely free either - like hosted services or storage.You have to find it, catch it, kill it, buy it or steal it...beforeyou process it.I just don't like payingextrafor the parts you can legitimately do locally - more efficiently (you have an oven, stove, gas, electricity water and refrigerator...To me it seems like a sales & marketing solution to a problem that doesn't exist in most small business or residential environments. Laziness is present inallbusinesses, so that should be discounted.As this months bonus offer - you also have to pay the shipping cost to / from the datacentre (ISP/telco charges) - for every byte - even if you don't use that document.A university, multi-national restaurant or hotel chain -yesa private datacentre / or hosted services could well be a viable solution with the right SLA and data costs.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 04:59:46 am
content: that's my point. food is both non-free and worth paying for.same as online services. for me.if you don't ever eat out, that's fine I guess. I just hope it isn't because you think you're a better cook than everyone that sells food, because you're not.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 11:46:28 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 07, 2015, 04:59:46 amIt's also the convenience. I am sure that great chefs also eat out.Time it's money. Calling outsourcing laziness is silly.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 02:46:10 pm
content: It isn't laziness; it's knowing that they do it better.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 09:28:36 pm
content: Maybe you guys have hit it on the head.Using hosted services or storage is not 'exactly' the same as outsourcing - but it is a valid point of contention. Very similar, and one could perhaps be the other, but not the other way around.Interesting.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 12:42:52 am
content: I'm old school, and this case proud of it.If you use the cloud on one side your data is unlikely to be lost; on the other, despite encryption, your data is more vulnerable.It's just another form of outsourcing.Having said that I use gmail.

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 09:00:45 pm
content: I use Gmail, but am considering moving my truly personal stuff to a box I actually own.I do like some cloud, and hate other forms of it.I love Azure and co., which allow me to set up a web server completely outsourced, without having to buy a box, find a colo provider, server Internet connection, pay for power, etc., and still give me thousands of times the flexibility and power of oldschool hosting like GoDaddy.I hate the "personal cloud" and corporate cloud services. I hate Office365, Gmail, Facebook, and all the shitcrap centralized fuckonomy that pushed peer-to-peer networking like mailing lists or irc, and small-scale thematic sites and forums into obscurity.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 06:59:16 am
content: I don't like anything cloud unless it's something I 100% control. The other thing I'm not crazy about is "internet of things" because most of those will probably be cloud based and not have security in mind. Ex: cloud based security systems, or appliances that "phone home".Sadly people buy into this stuff and are giving up their privacy, and it kind of gets forced on everyone. We live in a world where we have zero privacy unless you pretty much go off grid, even then.I host my own email and websites and other services. If my ISP allowed servers and provided static IPs I'd even host it all at my house, but a data centre will have to do. I try to stick to ones in Canada so my traffic should not go to the US, though some trace routes have shown me this is not always the case.Even stuff like smart thermostats, I don't trust em. I made my own. It's more customizable that way too. Lot of IoT stuff is probably going to be platform locked like require an apple app, or activeX or other garbage like that. I just code all my stuff to be web based, so it does not really matter what I access it with.I have considered cloud storage for backups though. Backblaze sounds really interesting and it's only $5/mo for unlimited storage. But then, you have to ask yourself, these companies need to make money, what do they do with all your information?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 07:05:40 am
content: I hope that most of the people worried about security don't let Google know what they do.My son actually likes that Google will recommend alternate routes to from work without him even telling Google where he works. It does remind him that is time to go to work as well because it picks up habits.Imagine you go to a new town, it should be able to recommend where to go based on your prior behavior (they don't do that yet, so make an app pronto! and get bought by Google for a stupid amount of money)This gen, is not that scared of privacy, to them the internet is the same as if you are in public. You just don't spray paint your creditcard number and security code name address etc as a tag on a wall

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 07:17:17 am
content: Yeah Google is the all seeing eye, I try to avoid using their stuff as much as possible.... though I do have an Android. I wish there were more options for cell phones. It seems it's either Apple or Android. I don't even use google for search anymore, I use Duckduckgo. At work sometimes I'll use google though, and it freaks me the hell out. Whatever I typed on my work computer will show up on my phone, which is not even connected to the same network. I have no clue how they do this.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 07:26:50 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on February 10, 2015, 07:17:17 amThere is and I use it, Blackberry

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 07:29:51 am
content: Don't see the point in cloud stuff. Everything of mine is stored locally. I don't need it anywhere else. On the odd occasion that I do need files accessible over the internet, I put them on an HTTP server (provided it isn't confidential).

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 11:03:15 am
content: Don't become dependent on a service from which they change the policy whenever they want and assume it will be shared with people you didn't want to share it with.Besides we are getting overstressed by getting/giving the info everywhere we go.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 01:08:15 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on February 10, 2015, 07:26:50 amWindows Phone isn't so bad, either. I was a Windows Phone user for years and I love and miss that phone.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 03:29:18 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 10, 2015, 01:08:15 pmThere are also those cheap flip phone that they sell here at the supermarket. If all you need is a phone they are actually very good.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 03:33:04 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on February 10, 2015, 07:17:17 amI just backed the Jolla Tablet (Ex Nokia guyzz) , in order to get away from iPad/Android Tabs.And they also have a Jolla Phone , their OS is SailFish (and it can run Android apps if desired)Afaik there is a Special offer for a Tablet & a Phone right now , with the Phone immediately deliverablehttps://jolla.com/tablet/http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmack/2014/12/10/the-case-for-the-jolla-tablet//BingoEdit: Seems like the Phone isn't available in all redionshttps://www.indiegogo.com/projects/jolla-tablet-world-s-first-crowdsourced-tablet

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 01:34:54 pm
content: Quote from: KedasProbe on February 10, 2015, 11:03:15 amTake online games for example, just another cloud service. Customers pay 50-70 bucks for the game which runs only if the game servers are online. If the game doesn't generate enough profit the servers are shut down after year or so. We saw that already several times. And I think we'll see that too for IoT gadgets.

author: opty
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 01:57:18 pm
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on February 09, 2015, 09:00:45 pmI seriously looked at that route some time ago and it is not that easy after all. Yes, I can easily set up a mail server but then handling true hardening, backups (where to? again back to the cloud in case your house is on fire?), spam filters and regular updates are too much burden to take on myself.That is a simple trade off after all. I'm on gmail, with Google/NSA going through my emails whenever they want but I do not have to spend time maintaining the service.btw. I still have a local/cloud backup on my most important data - just in case Google backup wasn't that reliable as they say it is;)

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 03:44:40 pm
content: GMail is a great example of why "The Cloud" is not only sometimes a good idea, but sometimes a GREAT idea.I can download my entire GMail mail store as an MBOX file which many unix-y programs can use. Awesome. I can set up an SMTP server and an IMAP server so that I can give clients in my house something to connect to. Awesome. I can set up firewall rules and allow mail in and out. Awesome. I can set up anti-spam and anti-forging stuff on my mail server so no one can use it for nefarious purposes. Awesome. I can administer a server just for this, or I can add it to one of my existing servers, if I have one. Awesome. Yay, free software! Right?Well, it turns out that Awesome + Awesome + Awesome + Awesome = headache, time sink, and lots of workto get what I already have.What is your time worth? If it's more than nothing, the cloud (god, I hate that term) starts to gain a lot of appeal. I KNOW for a fact that Google can do anti-spam better than I. I know that they can handle outages more quickly than I. I know that they can handle system administration better than I.Now, I am not you. Maybe you're a sysadmin God and you like doing this stuff. Good for you, seriously. I'm not you. I hate that crap, despite having lots of experience in it. I'd much rather pay someone to handle that stuff for me, provided they don't want too much money, or whatever else is important to me.This is how the cloud (ugh) makes a LOT of sense. A lot of sense.

author: chicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 05:21:39 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 11, 2015, 03:44:40 pmNo, GMail is exhibit #1 why any use of "The Cloud" needs careful upfront consideration. It hit me home a few years ago, when ads related to private email communication started following me around.I'm not against using hosted service providers (to use the non-buzz term). I still use a hosted email provider. But I make sure that I'm aware of the tradeoffs and the cost in $$ and inconvenience I'm willing to pay.Also keep in mind, that you are looking at this from a US perspective. How would you feel about using the cloud for private and/or business purposes if the leading providers would all be Chinese?

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 06:55:30 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 11, 2015, 03:44:40 pmIt does make a lot of sense. So does selling your soul to the Devil.When Google was Google Search and Gmail Beta, I jumped on quite enthusiastically. Now that Google is Lord fucking Sauron, I want out. The question is not whether your time is worth more than nothing, it's whether your time is worth more than your privacy. I know that for some people, it isn't.Also, I see a business opportunity in this. A user-friendly and pre-configured, hardened "personal cloud" application based on free software, to be installed on your own hardware, or sold with hardware, is more than realizable. People might even want it.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 07:06:53 pm
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on February 11, 2015, 06:55:30 pmI think that is the opinion of someone that selectively believes what they read. From what I have read, it seems clear that Google is pretty much forced to spy on you, thanks to the PATRIOT Act. And, Google have indicated multiple times that they don't believe that what they're doing is constitutional, and that they don't want to continue at all."Lord Fucking Sauron" wouldn't have any desire to do anything but enslave every race on Middle Earth.

author: chicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 07:22:05 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 11, 2015, 07:06:53 pmQuote from: Rigby on February 11, 2015, 07:06:53 pmGoogle (and Facebook and pretty much every consumer product out of Silicon Valley) is happy to ignore anyone's privacyrightsconcerns if they can make a buck off the data. So in a way, all these services are actually designed to do exactly that.. just replace "every race" with "all data".

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 08:05:38 pm
content: Except they don't use that private data for their own gain. It costs them money to comply with requests from the FBI. In fact, when Google found out that the NSA hacked them, they were furious, and vowed to encrypt all the email that they can, and they're still working on that.Yep, Sauron.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 09:05:06 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 11, 2015, 08:05:38 pmYou MUST be joking. Selling your information to 3rd parties or using it for targeted advertisements is their primary business model!Quote from: Rigby on February 11, 2015, 08:05:38 pmBecause they didn't make any money off of it

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 09:20:04 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 11, 2015, 08:05:38 pmLOL! Repeat after me,"private gooood, public baaaad"!As has been explained the very business model of "big data", including Google, is tosellYOUR LIFE to advertisers, market researchers, universities, law enforcement agencies, etc.Yes, the Patriot act requires them to give some of the datafor free. Boo-hoo.(Another revenue stream is people paying them to sneakily manipulate your decisions by tuning various ranking algorithms and predictive assistant systems that you rely on to do your thinking for you.)"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them." - Frank Herbert, DuneDo youpayGoogle? Have you ever sent a check for yourGoogle subscription? No? Well that means you're not the consumer. You're the product. You're being consumed by Google and their clients (who actually do pay money for their Google subscriptions).

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 02:56:11 am
content: You guys are wrong on some very fundamental facts about advertising and revenue generation.Have fun with your "everyone is out to get me" fan club.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 03:12:00 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 12, 2015, 02:56:11 amJust keep telling yourself that everything you send to Google is protected and encrypted and nobody can see it but you. And the next time somebody sends you an email or you do a Google search for Tektronics and you start seeing Tektronix ads on every page you visit, just tell yourself it's coincidence. Let me know how that works out for you.By the way - what good is encryption when you aren't the one holding the key?

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 04:25:34 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 12, 2015, 02:56:11 amTo paraphrase a common internet problem, the internet is a vast place with many, many ideas and philosophies. The more you carelessly traipse over it the less you are exposed to it's vastness until your own little bubble is so self affirming that you are no different to the religious nut jobs waving tambourines shouting "Hare Krishna"...and don't tell me this aint right, from where I sit it appears the internet is all about electronics(thank god for InPrivate Browsing)

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 04:33:08 am
content: For all the tinfoil hats out there, I highly recommend the Chrome's Ghostery extension or a similar one. It will show you for each web page you visit what third parties are directly notified in real time about your visit. This is for example what is shows forwww.eevblog.comThe longest list I ever seen (not on eevblog.com) had more than 70! items and that page very slow to load which is also a performance issue.

author: aroby
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 04:42:22 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on February 10, 2015, 06:59:16 amSince you're in Canada, use easydns as your DNS provider. My ISP technically doesn't allow servers and, in particular, blocks inbound and outbound SMTP on the standard ports. I host my own email, and use a feature provided by easydns to port forward port 25 to my own server port which my ISP is clueless about. I also route my outbound email through them. They are more expensive than godaddy, for example, but are rock solid.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 04:42:43 am
content: TO RECAP:

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 06:20:58 am
content: Quote from: zapta on February 12, 2015, 04:33:08 amInteresting. For me (running Firefox), Ghostery shows less forwww.eevblog.com.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 02:56:42 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on February 12, 2015, 03:12:00 amIn reverse order:I already said that there are cloud providers which force you to keep your own keys.Google knows I searched for Tek scopes, not Tek. Google serves the ads, not Tek. If you'd spent 10 milliseconds looking at the advertiser side of this, which you can easily do, but have chosen not to do, you would see only basic stats on ads: number of impressions, click through percentage based on certain demographics. ZERO personally identifiable information AT ALL.I never said that Google's data on me is visible only to me.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 04:06:40 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 12, 2015, 02:56:42 pmWhy do you keep changing topics every time you get called out?We're not talking about other cloud providers, we're talking about Google. YOU brought them up as a prime example of a great implementation of a cloud service, not anybody else. YOU brought up their encryption, not anybody else. YOU are the one that said they don't use your information for personal gain (HAH!). The fact is, your "great example" of a cloud service is a company that collects all of your personal information so they can sell you as a product to advertisers. Google's encryption means next to nothing since you do not hold the key, they do, and they can and DO use your personal emails for targeted advertisements. Are you seriously arguing that this is a prime example of a great cloud service, and is the direction all cloud services should go?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 04:14:32 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on February 12, 2015, 04:06:40 pmWill this help you?https://support.google.com/ads/answer/2662922?hl=en

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 05:03:43 pm
content: Zapta, there is no speaking to these people.I gave an example of why someone might consider GMail to be a good, "cloud" based alternative to running your own servers, and this apparently means that I think Google is the best cloud provider in the entire fucking universe and that everything about them is flawless. There is absolutely no way to combat arguments like those because they are not based on logic or reason.I'm done with this topic.

author: aroby
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2015, 12:50:06 am
content: @suicidaleggroll - just delete your cookies. What you are and others are talking about is the web, not cloud.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2015, 01:31:09 am
content: Over fifteen years ago I used to work with a small team to run an international company's network systems, which included our email. Over 5 years we only had 2 serious email outages; one of which was caused by a virus that internationally caught everyone by surprise. Our team had already proposed investment to reduce the possibility of future problems amortised over 5 years.The powers that be elected for an outsourced email system which was more expensive and less flexible. Sadly I confess that I lost interest in any complaints that were based on such loss and reverted to 'I told you so'. Still it was no longer my problem.Truthfully, at least in my and my teams' view,b the company lost out in flexibility, bottom line and satisfaction for user and the IT knowledge base.Anyone/company who uses a 'cloud' based system is relying on a third (fourth, fifth, etc.) party to maintain security.Of course the internet itself cannot be be thought of as secure anyway.So what next?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2015, 01:28:12 pm
content: For a small company without any IT staff cloud services like gmail make sense unless there are security/privacy issues. It's simple and everything is handled by gmail. But that's also the big problem with it. If gmail has an outage you can't send or receive email. And yes, that already happened several times. So much for high availabilityIf you need a special feature which isn't supported by gmail, you got bad luck. Can you do it better? Yes, with a savvy IT staff you can achieve less downtime, get more/special features, anti-spam as good as gmail (or even better) and so on. A single unix admin can do that without much struggle for several services, not just email.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2015, 05:01:43 pm
content: Quote from: madires on February 13, 2015, 01:28:12 pmThere are other email cloud options other than GMail so it's not 'gmail or nothing'. ;-)I would think that the larger the company is, the more it makes sense to have email and cloud services in house but this this is just another outsourcing dilemma.Personally I use some cloud services (email, shared docs, music repository, version control, file transfer) and not others (photo albums, backup).BTW, one of the most popular cloud services are from Amazon (storage and computing). It's interesting that they are not mentioned here. They are required though higher level of sophistication than using let's say web based email. Never used them by talking with people they seem to be very popular.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2015, 09:10:45 pm
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on February 11, 2015, 09:20:04 pmEven if you pay, you're the product. Samsung TV's listen to what is said in the room now.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 06:17:02 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on February 13, 2015, 05:01:43 pmAWS is freaking awesome.I work for a large company and we have a huge number of things on "the cloud" now, primarily because it is SO MUCH less expensive to scale with cloud services than it is in-house. I can go on to AWS and have 3,000 identically configured servers up and running in about 3 minutes. We've done this several times, so that's not a theoretical number. If we were to attempt that in-house, we'd need to have enough infrastructure go unused to spin that size of a deployment up at any given time, so that's time spent procuring servers, VMware licensing, cooling and power capacity, hiring people to keep them up, and accounting things like depreciation and other things that affect the bottom line. When we don't use servers on AWS, we don't have to do or pay anything.Also, there is absolutely no chance that our guys are as good at virtual infrastructure as Amazon. That's not to say they couldn't be, mind you, just that they have other things on their plate.HIGHLY recommend looking at AWS for anyone that needs (or even thinks they might need) a simple virtual machine running and accessible from somewhere. I keep one up all the time just so I have a shell, and it costs me less than $10/mo. It's more expensive than keeping a Raspberry Pi or BBB on my home network, yes, but I don't have to worry about creating an intrusion vector for my home network, nor do I have to worry about my home broadband going down.It's something that everyone will weigh out for themselves, I guess. It's an absolute no-brainer for myself and my employer.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 06:33:24 pm
content: Never used AWS but is't definitely on my todo list. A friend of mine has a small startup that requires significant amount of computation (indexing) and they run it on AWS.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 09:11:30 pm
content: I agree, AWS, Terremark, Google cloud, Azure, you name it, they are awesome not just because on how they scale, but also how close they are to tier 1 networks. The cost to bring the network connectivity to your in house servers to compete with these services would be cost prohibitive.