Is there a viable mid-range PnP machine yet? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 02:30:22 am
content: Because I want to upgrade from our Charmhigh 48VBs in the worst possible way. The machines can be made to work, but to say they are quirky is an understatement. Also, the 5mm component height limitation is getting very annoying, as we have to place all electrolytics by hand, along with a few other components. One of my VBs is starting to have motion problems (you have to push the gantry by hand when you start it up, it runs after that), and I'm not excited to try and diagnose/repair the thing. And of course, the feeders, tape advance, and converter software are all flaming hot garbage on these things.One issue: I don't want to spend $100k right now, as I have some projects in the works that may require much higher end machines that can tackle BGA and other not-so-fun components.Issue 2: I'm on a suspended wooden floor, so weight is a factor: I have to fit the machine in a standard entry door and run it on a desk. I will be moving in about a year, so I also don't want to move a huge machine, again.I need all of the lanes that the 48VBs give me, including the 24mm tape lanes. In fact, I'd love more 12, 16 and 24mm lanes.I have been looking for a couple years, but the only lower options are the Chinese offerings that seem to be of spotty quality, worse CS, and over-all just a PITA to deal with. Has that changed?I'm about at my wit's end, and thinking of building an Open PnP machine, just to see if I can get THAT to run reliably. Will they run 0402 components?

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 02:50:19 am
content: Just get the one I'm using! Just watch my video yourself and you can gauge. Support? Bought it from a distributor but manufacturer support me very well. In fact I don't talk to the distibutor anymore. I get early access to all early software release as well. Machine has been problem free as well other than me crushing the head with a feeder while it's running. But do check the weight. Without feeder itself, it's 220kg. You might need to dismantle the cover as well to go through your door. And I get plenty of emails asking for help due to the stuff I wrote and publish. Most of them bought from their distributors, I pushed all of them to the manufacturer. They helped them despite didn't buy directly. And for your information, I don't get paid a cent although I was offered by HWGC. It's just a nice machine with a good support from the company behind it.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 10:46:33 pm
content: Anything else?Man, this is a huge glaring hole in the market!

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 04:14:28 am
content: Bumping again.I just can't believe there isn't a proper mid-grade machine out there.

author: lamabrew
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 02:05:12 pm
content: I'm using a Tronstrol E-1 and I have mixed feelings about recommending it yet. Software needs work to make it easier to use, but they do seem to be improving it. It's solid but seems to have some build issues that they have not worked out. I've got athreadrunning about what I've found.It uses pin-feed so that keeps the cost down and I'm only using it for proto/small quantity so speed wasn't a huge consideration for me. Seems to handle 0201 but I don't normally use those.Caps though it can't fit through the feeders so I do those by cutting the tape and sticking it down to carrier in the work area (i.e. treat them like a tray of parts). OK for me but would be a a PITA if you have 1000s of caps to place.I looked at the Neoden's (1 or the 4) but those were above what I wanted to spend for the use I would get out of it. I purchased from US distrib and they've been very helpful getting support.

author: PCBprototyping
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 03:43:36 pm
content: Feeder bank can be ordered in deepened version, which can accept tall components like big electrolytics.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 03:51:07 pm
content: Quote from: Rat_Patrol on April 18, 2023, 04:14:28 amI have issues with both your definition of "mid-grade" and your requirement to be honest. If it sits on a desk, its not mid range, its entry level.The only machine that positions itself as kinda well supported professional desktop is the little Manncorp/Autotronik and that doesn't seem to be a good choice based on other posts on here. You could argue for the DDM Novastar perhaps, all of these are "entry level" machines. Essemtech, Frtisch and the bigger Chinese machines might be called mid-range costing 50-100K with a basic feeder package, but this gets muddy real quick because other big names can make Essemtec/Fritsch look really shitty value if you pick the right offer and need the right bundle and they are fully capable industrial machines.However between your very basic Charmhigh and those choices above are 30+ other models from HWGC, Kayo, Neoden & Charmhigh etc in various shapes and sizes, no you won't get the support you'd get with a brand with local distribution, but that's what you lose by paying less. The hole in the market is truly good local support, to my knowledge only Neoden and Kayo even attempt this and they basically palm it off on their distributor who has limited resources or knowledge compared to the big brands who's distribution channels are trained for diagnosis and stocked with spares.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2023, 06:20:19 am
content: Quote from: SMTech on April 18, 2023, 03:51:07 pmI guess to say it doesn't have to sit on a desk, but it can't be a 2000 pound machine either. I could put down a couple layers of 3/4" ply to spread the weight, and then I could put 1000 pounds in there. Still have to get it in through the service door thoughI'll check out Kayo. NeodenUSA is across the country from me, so I'm not sure they will be more help than a phone call, but at least I can call them! Was looking at the Neoden 9 (the 10 is 8mm only?), and I think that may work for my needs.Still lots of research to do.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2023, 06:47:54 am
content: Quote from: Rat_Patrol on April 19, 2023, 06:20:19 amI haven't seen anything inbetween: you either have desktop machines or you have full size machines (of which there are very few that would fit through a normal doorway).Look up my posts on here about Kayo. I've just upgraded to serious Yamaha machines but the Kayo 1706 was a fantastic starting point for us for the past 3 years. They do 4 head benchtop versions of their machines that would suit you. Support from the team in China is fantastic and we could whatsApp in real time with them when sorting out a couple of bugs (although the time zone difference to the US certainly makes it harder).