Apple privacy letter (Law enforcement through your phone) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 02:24:34 am
content: I saw this in the Eevblog IRC ans thought this was interesting:Quotehttps://twitter.com/snowden/status/1423758676020678662Quotehttps://appleprivacyletter.comQuoteSo if the bot alerts the authorities over what it detects as questionable content and they decide to access all phone's content remotely through the backdoor I wonder what impact that would have over bandwidth especially if it is in a poor signal area or do they just send out the police with the details they possible obtained from the sale of the phone (if new) or from other information from tracking.Interesting to see how this will turn out.Just see it was posted on the BBC news an hour ago:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58124495QuoteSounds like a serious problem that they would feel the need to do that.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 02:33:35 am
content: Louis Rossmann made a video about it:

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 05:13:03 am
content: Something doesn't make sense to me, for a criminal to knowingly upload/access illegal/forbidden or pirated content I thought they normally use something decentralized/low profile and likes of Bittorent with a computer or laptop where control is easier over the internal/local storage but using phones and tablets with established online storage/cloud services where they could have backups of things and I believe they can be tracked. I somehow think that the criminals are unlikely to go for that.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 07:53:29 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on August 07, 2021, 02:24:34 amI don't feel affectedPoor Apple fanboysBut on second though, I'm sure they will find some way to justify it

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 08:01:15 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on August 07, 2021, 05:13:03 am"Think of the children" is the American "hate speech". In plain English it means: we want to monitor you and if you don't agree then you are a racist or rapist. It's one of the oldest memes.Who would have expected that monopolization and dumbing down aka democratization of computing could possibly have that kind of effect?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 08:17:46 am
content: Apple fanboy here. I have a MacBook Air, iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch. I also use iCloud and iCloud email.This is too far and since this they have been pushing internal memos doubling down on this being a good idea and stating that people are misunderstanding it. They are not. I live in the UK which is a large surveillance state. This can and will be leveraged. Apples ecosystem was previously “the least bad” for privacy but now they choose to build in feature which make it by far the worst while pushing arrogant misinformation about the potential uses under secondary mandates. As someone said on HN: don’t shit in my hand and call it chocolate.As of yesterday I have a Ubuntu desktop machine and all my data has been migrated. All iCloud storage and email has been disabled and forwarded. All my devices will be disposed of over the next few weeks.This is a bucket load of inconvenience for me but I will not walk into this future willingly. Back to 2005 technology it is.Edit: I was surprised to find that literally all the Apple centric news outlets shit the bed over this. Everyone is talking about walking. You can see the sentiment here were a post revelation pro privacy article is pushed and everyone is turning against Apple and the news sitehttps://forums.macrumors.com/threads/ios-15-privacy-guide-private-relay-hide-my-email-mail-privacy-protection-app-reports-and-more.2306760/

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 09:59:51 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on August 07, 2021, 02:24:34 amAlso, before to do a check, they will needQuote, so technically they will upload an illegal content on your device.As per Apple diagram, it doesn't make sense since all these they can do much more easily during a upload to iCloud...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 10:08:29 am
content: Well they're not uploading the illegal content to your device at all. They're uploading a hash of an approximation of it and then taking all of your images and calculating an approximation of those and comparing them to the hash on the device.These are the concerns I have:1. The algorithm is closed.2. The CSAM database is closed.3. All image hash based algorithms so far can be tricked into providing matching hashes by adding noise thus leading to easy to SWAT scenarios.4. At no point should they be able to selectively decrypt my data.5. At no point should they even allow doing this unless under warrant by a court in the juristiction of the user in question. To do it preemtively is a million times worse and will lead to completely innocent people having their lives ruined.6. This mechanism can and will be repurposed under mandate of various nefarious states to prevent state inconvenient political and person freedoms.Just no.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 11:04:18 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 07, 2021, 10:08:29 amThat is the point where it gets me: once the state gets ahold of an individual right they will not give it back. And Android users like me should be worried as well: if they get their way with a large chunk of the marketshare, they will try to get their way with the rest of it. It helps that Android is more decentralized, but large swaths are in the hands of one or two players.Rob Braxman is a YT that has been beating this phone lack of privacy drum for a long time.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 11:34:47 am
content: Where have I heard something similiar.... Oh yes,1984by George Orwell

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 11:48:55 am
content: QuoteWhat happened to the usual government statement trotted out when privacy concerns are raise "you have nothing to fear if you haven't done anything wrong" although im guessing there will be a version available without the "feature" especially for government officials in the name of national security.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 01:30:50 pm
content: I would suspect so considering the nature of our government to do things wrong

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 01:47:42 pm
content: What really irks me about this shit:Most people i know are not technically minded *at all*. If i would start explaining this to them, they would cheer Apple on for fighting against child abuse, and brand me at best an idiot, and at worst a potential sex offender, because i do not want my pictures scanned.That is not even starting about the potential abuses this will get in the future.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 01:54:43 pm
content: Surprisingly the non technical folk I know who I have mentioned this too have gone "what the fuck" as well which is a good thing. There has been a lot of press here over the last couple of years about "big tech" and surveillance culture which has demonised such things.The killer is mentioning the risk of false positives when communicating with them.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 02:25:35 pm
content: Apple wouldn't unlock the cell phone belonging to a known terrorist and now they want to go pawing through everybody's iPhone, iPad and computer. This isn't just limited to cell phones, you know. It applies to i<everything>.They're screwed at this point. Even if they publicly back away from this proposal, nobody will EVER trust them again. How do we know they're not doing it quietly? How could they even consider doing something like this?In a perfect world, Apple would be out of business on Monday.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 02:28:46 pm
content: Someone just needs to make a viral picture (completely legal) that false positives and the system will get DDoSed in no time.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 02:35:32 pm
content: You have to wonder what the DOJ has on Apple that made them come up with this idea. Were they going to break up Apple under some 'monopoly' statute? Maybe force them into 'right to repair' on steroids?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 03:39:41 pm
content: While I very much share the concerns about oppressive governments legislating that this technology be used for other things, many commenters seem to be confused about what it does and does not do, technically speaking.Nothing in the technical documentation even hints at the ability for Apple or law enforcement to decrypt the user’s devices, nor at it forwarding the offending images themselves. Remember the context: Apple has always been able and willing to share unencrypted data that’s on iCloud when subpoenaed to do so, and I don’t think they’ve ever claimed that iCloud Photos is end to end encrypted. This thing seems to scan the photos in the user’s device at the same time the user uploads it to iCloud. The entire process seems to operate on the hashes themselves.As for the sexting filter for kids, it’s kinda strange to me, insofar as I don’t really believe in empowering helicopter parents. But it is done entirely on-device, and no part of it involves breaking iMessage’s end to end encryption, nor of forwarding the images themselves to parents or anyone else. (On the other hand, as a consenting adult, I actually wouldn’t mind the app obscuring incoming nudie pics initially, so as to not have any embarrassing surprises on the bus or the bar.)

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 04:06:10 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 07, 2021, 03:39:41 pmSounds like 'theft of services' to me! I own those compute cycles, I paid for them and I don't want them stolen for something like this.OK, I looked it up and using computer services without permission is larceny. Section 502 (15) C 3 here:https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=502.&lawCode=PENQuoteLawsuits to follow...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 04:23:10 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 07, 2021, 03:39:41 pmActually the terms state that on a number of suitable matches (poorly defined), they will manually review the images. That means they will decrypt them at that point in time and it will be an Apple staff member doing it.As for the hashes I get the feeling people don’t know what these are. These are not binary level hashes of the image files but perceptual hashes of the content. They are very easy to attack and cause collisions on. See:https://towardsdatascience.com/black-box-attacks-on-perceptual-image-hashes-with-gans-cc1be11f277I’ve attached the key image which shows how easy they are to cause collisions with from the article.The article says they should not be used for privacy sensitive applications and they’re right.Edit: what’s worrying is that the assertion that 1 in 1 trillion images causes a false match. What’s their corpus? Where’s the public proofs. Where’s the source code for independent validation?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 04:23:44 pm
content: Caravaggio's naughty paintings of pre-pubescent nudes are all out of copyright, and could be uploaded to test the procedure.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 04:29:46 pm
content: Its a long term investment for "future" leaders, remember Jeffrey Epstein's black-op team's leverage power from recorded materials from the hidden cameras at his places.Actually the founder of US FBI started this effective method for the establishment to rule the nation, Western European countries included.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 04:55:26 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on August 07, 2021, 11:34:47 amApple who was so much against privacy-invading stuff a few years back, to the point of not willing to cooperate with the FBI. And now this.Ahah yeah.We seem to be really eager to live in a 1984-like world. That's fascinating.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 05:17:25 pm
content: This didn't age well...

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 06:27:38 pm
content: Privacy is amythwith modern computing - that's your phone, PC, tablet and car.Talking with my compsi friends, we are all astonished that we are being tracked at the operating system level, as well as the app level, without full knowledge or consent and nothing is changing about it.From booting CP/M on an Altair through to having mega corporations, mega monopolies blatently data mine and correlate, who'd have thought this is what computers would turn to be. At least the CCP is upfront about it.Apple Police should benefit the world, pushing a "really nice" reason to rummage through people's data, all in the name of fighting crime, when I think it's really just to get data to develop and feed new AI algorithms, they are the next cash cow for Silicon Valley. Would the Apple Police do anything about political corruption, organized crime, money laundering ?Nobody can find the next hardware innovation, the next new great product, the monopolies are impotent despite having: Google market cap $1.818T, Apple $2.416T, FB $1.03T, Microsoft $2.175T they are swimming in cash.And all unable to make anything significant at all, but spyware

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 06:39:26 pm
content: It is only a short step further for these bots to start looking into financial discrepancies to report to the authorities as evidence of criminal activity. Follow the money; I wouldn’t be surprised if governments reward large internet connected companies for this type of activity while legislating loopholes for corporate financial discrepancies.This “save the children” approach is merely practice for the big picture.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 06:44:15 pm
content: Quote from: Gregg on August 07, 2021, 06:39:26 pmThat's already the case in some countries. If you think what happens on your bank account(s) is private, well, you're in for some disappointment.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 06:53:05 pm
content: Yes they do that already. Try transferring large amounts of cash without attracting attention.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 07:04:31 pm
content: Alright we're heading towards a surveillance state.But having a megacorp in charge of deciding what to look at, what is acceptable, who to go after etc. will never work. Just look at Youtube and Amazon screwing over the people.Censoring social media alone is a battleground where you can do nothing if you feel your rights were trampled. Rights that are dictated by the corporation who puts profit first in its values.I'm turning chinese because at least Xi is busting up monopolies and keeping things away from sheer greed and profit- instead of being for the people.The common man gets investigated for transferring large amounts of legit money, but the politicians and crooks are protected. Trump has$102M alreadyin his war chest. Would the Apple Police do a single thing here?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 07:31:02 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 07, 2021, 06:53:05 pmYep. In France, there is a system called "Tracfin". Banks and financial organizations are required to report suspicious money movements and are pretty much free to use any way they see fit to do this, of course including AI. The number one criterion is the transfer of large amounts of cash, as you said, but the current definition of large for warranting a report might surprise you. And, even large transactions, not by cash, are monitored.I'm pretty sure many countries in the world have similar systems these days.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 09:54:27 pm
content: I wonder when Microsoft comes with the same initiative??

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 10:06:46 pm
content: Microsoft already do it. Look up PhotoDNA.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 10:22:03 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 07, 2021, 10:06:46 pmOn someones local disk?? I doubt so..

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 10:50:32 pm
content: Quote from: imo on August 07, 2021, 10:22:03 pmNo on OneDrive.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 11:25:49 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 07, 2021, 04:23:10 pmExcept that isnotwhat the documentation says.Fromhttps://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Technical_Summary.pdfQuoteThe voucher contains “the relevant image information (the NeuralHash and visual derivative)”. I take the latter to mean either thumbnails or snippets from the image, if that.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 11:37:23 pm
content: Read the process at a higher level. You’ve read the technical mechanism but not the external process. There’s a lot more to it.Also it is important that we look at the scope of all technology outside the intended usage.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 11:43:45 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 07, 2021, 11:37:23 pmYou don’t know what I do and don’t know. I was addressing one incorrect assertion, no more, no less.Quote from: bd139 on August 07, 2021, 11:37:23 pmExpressly addressed inliterally the opening sentence of my first comment.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2021, 11:44:46 pm
content: As always, John Gruber (a noted Mac journalist) offers a nuanced, informed look at the issue. It’s a long, but insightful read:https://daringfireball.net/2021/08/apple_child_safety_initiatives_slippery_slope

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2021, 01:36:59 am
content: Anyone use LineageOS?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2021, 01:49:46 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 08, 2021, 01:36:59 amHave been using it since the days it was called CyanogenMod.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2021, 04:05:29 am
content: Given a phone some years ago and was so upset with the Sony stock firmware it sat away for a about year. Every time I tried to set it up to turn off the annoying stuff I ended loosing my temper and turning it back off. Like I am somewhat stupid and confused don't know what I am doing that the developer thinks they know me better than myself and make assumptions based on gestures or anything I do thinking they are actually helping me.I removed it and tried this LineageOS which does have a few annoyances but seems to be a lot better than the other.The Sony stock firmware had some version of Microsoft Swiftkey. I discovered it was different when I was trying to turn off the usual spelling, predictive and suggestions but there were no settings to disable these things on the Swiftkey keyboard settings. I know how to spell and what to type so all it was doing was taking room over the keyboard and distracting me with suggestions that kept on changing on every key press. I read somewhere in the Swiftley settings that it collects the words I type and sends it to Microsoft for analysis... I was furious "That's taking the p*ss". Maybe I was doing it properly but I couldn't get the original Android keyboard on there to set as the default where I know I could switch those features off.Thread about it here:https://community.sony.com.mk/t5/x-series/remove-swiftkey/td-p/3498298/page/3There was a lot other stuff too like excessive overlay dimming worse than what it is now, some annoying home screen thing with an animation in the background that kept on appearing out of nowhere or by some input gesture with suggestions and hints constantly interrupting what I was trying to do that I coudn't hide or disable and I found it like harassment. I think I did eventually find it in the apps bit but the disable was faded out and stop didn't seem to do anything. I am not sure if it is a stock or Sony thing or not but I could not find no settings for it.I had no some trouble with a bootloader tool to install the image but found that clearing the partitions solved that.I am also pleased I can set the DPI in developer settings to get more estate and pinch and zoom. I use Firefox 68 for the addons and took a bit of time to turn off silly things in the about:config that work against me like auto zoom on every page load, input selection, autofocus, inflexible touch input seems inconsistent on scrolling like it is second guessing how I want it to scroll sometimes locking to horizontal and I don't always know the proper names of many of these settings to search for. it works with some extensions I need like Stickyducky and Adblock that I can add a network list too. One thing I am still looking for is to always set desktop site.It seems pretty functional for the small things I use it for.The only thing touching things on the edges seem difficult but I think it is because it is curved.I wouldn't use my phone for anything serious maybe I might use them for dedicated tasks but not for personal stuff or use it to sign in on websites.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2021, 07:46:05 am
content: My old phone with CyanogenMod would mysteriously turn on WiFi, WiFi hotspot and Bluetooth- despite me turning that all off.It creeped me out, did it once or twice a year whenever I left town. Not sure if "something" was polling surrounding ID's or it was a sweep by a certain surveillance state that made the phone. There is no privacy, only its illusion

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2021, 09:47:39 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 07, 2021, 08:17:46 amYou are not a true zealot if you quit so easilyQuote from: bd139 on August 07, 2021, 08:17:46 amYou are right about the clear path for escalation, but they are technically right too and it's a classic PR trick. People never understand shit and I'm sure there is a ton of nonsense conspiracy theories in circulation out there, so their best bet to detract from legitimate criticism is to concentrate on debunking the bullshit.Everybody is doing it that way and it worksI suspect that some men in black suits and/or high level politicians were involved, given Apple's former public stance on user privacy. Today it's pedophiles, tomorrow it's terrorists, 10 years down the line and it's 24/7 video streaming to help catch pickpocketers in public transport.As for the means of pressure, well, remember that the US is a country where you can be liable for hot coffee being hot. And the same one which somehow managed to bust The Pirate Bay, Megaupload and Julian Assange even in foreign jurisdictions. I'm sure that aiding in trafficking of child pornography can be problematic too. What if Apple was found not to do enough to stop it by refusing to implement common sense, noninvasive, privacy-preserving countermeasures?At any rate, knowing typical Apple customers, I doubt that the feature was demanded by them.Quote from: tooki on August 07, 2021, 03:39:41 pmThank you, Apple fanboy, for never failing to deliver

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2021, 01:46:01 pm
content: People love to raise the McDonald's coffee case as an example of supposedly excessive litigation.For a reasonable description, check Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_RestaurantsMcDonald's had already settled similar suits for scalding injuries, but did not change their practice.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2021, 01:47:18 pm
content: New attack vector on this already. The CSAM hash sources are from NCMEC “and other child protection sources” which is a loose collection of individual organisations and lobby groups with no scrutiny and oversight. So some asshat maliciously uploads other content, your kid downloads it off Google into iCloud photos and your door gets kicked down in the middle of the night. Or a third party injects CSAM hashes into a system via external attack because the source of truth somewhere is probably a CSV on a cranky old unlicensed windows desktop at a non-profit (this is reality if you look at data protection prosecutions over the years).Tooki: privacy can only be reasoned about as a worst case outcome from any technical decision. This is actually really my day job; protecting people’s financial data. Regardless of the facts or technical merit of the solution the point is that only the whole concept can be qualified, not just the technical aspects. That’s probably where we got our wires crossed so apologies if you felt I was standing on your toes there. As for recovering the data, Apple already can decrypt your iCloud photos contents; check the terms and conditions. They will do that under existing rules not from technical outcomes from this. Their process would be to use this as a basis to decrypt the rest.Incidentally I have now isolated and removed all my devices other than my iPhone from my iCloud account. I will retain the iPhone with no iCloud involvement where possible for the near future as I have some stuff which is required for work still on it. And quite frankly I need to recoup some investment before I spend on something else.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2021, 02:05:00 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 08, 2021, 01:47:18 pmWhere do we go, though? The computing world started out as the Wild West, it seems it is ending up in 1984 or Brave New World...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2021, 02:21:18 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 08, 2021, 02:05:00 pmI already had a fairly extensive exit plan ready to roll. It's important if you tie yourself with convenience handcuffs.Firstly the whole concept of tablet and smart watch are disposed of. Those were conveniences and luxuries which are just discarded. The remaining requirements are distributed across general computing and smartphone utility which can be managed fairly easily with Ubuntu 21.04 on the desktop in my case. I spent perhaps 3 hours moving photos and document data over. Some cloud services have been replaced with other cloud services where privacy is not guaranteed anyway. In the case of email, which is the big one I just rolled out a Fastmail account with my domain and changed all the forwarders around and job done.The smartphone is far harder to get rid of and that will take a few weeks of careful unpicking. I've had my eye on a Nikon DSLR for a few weeks now so that bit is already solved. The biggest loss for me would be Apple Music as that's actually fairly good. Everything else is replaceable or I can live without. I need to migrate my 2FA stuff over to YubiKeys. I've got a cheap Garmin eTrex 10 and paper maps for outdoors nav, Casio F91W to tell the time. Quite frankly I probably don't need the Internet or phone comms most of the time and spend a lot of my dead time spamming on here when I should be reading a book or something. I may just switch to a dumb phone for the sake of on call requirements.Welcome to the glory of 2005, the peak of technology.Phone wise this is looking good:https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B096QXC42Q/(4g, £35!)

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2021, 03:25:03 pm
content: I wonder...JustHOW MUCHthese cranks are charging for providing their privacy collected information about hot targets... how much they will charge for these kinda of hot back doors..Alas what kind of people will pay these crippled over priced and invasive devices..Still buying that shit of privacy?Paul

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2021, 04:26:32 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 08, 2021, 02:21:18 pmI use SoundCloud, it is extremely good & works in a browser without installing anything.Quote from: bd139 on August 08, 2021, 02:21:18 pmSad, really, but I'm beginning to think you may be right...Technology has 'technically' progressed since then, but the technology is no longer owned by the user, and the technology is increasingly just being used mostly as a way to milk us. Any benefits to us users is just a side effect of the real purpose... Enough of that, please.I never thought it would come to this. Feel like I just swallowed the red pill!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2021, 04:49:15 pm
content: Yeah I'm mostly concerned about mobile music if I'm honest. There are a few discrete mp3 players which may do the job.Totally agree with your second point. I'm slap bang in the middle of the tech sector and people are blind to their own futures there as well

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2021, 05:33:24 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 08, 2021, 02:05:00 pmYeah. Well, I think this is exactly how most technologies start and end up.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2021, 05:48:06 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 08, 2021, 01:47:18 pmAnd how is one supposed to qualify the whole concept without thoroughly understanding and qualifying the technical aspects, too?!? A great "whole concept" can be turned to complete shit with a poor technical implementation, after all.But again, I wasn'tclaimingto evaluate the entire concept, I was addressing aspecific technical errorin your representation of the process.Quote from: bd139 on August 08, 2021, 01:47:18 pmWell, I just feel you're trying to correct me on things I already know,and that you would know that I already know,had you read my posts carefully. To wit:Quote from: bd139 on August 08, 2021, 01:47:18 pmIn my original post here, I literally said:Quote from: tooki on August 07, 2021, 03:39:41 pmAnd Gruber, linked in another reply of mine, confirms that iCloud photos and files are not end-to-end encrypted.He says:QuoteThat's after explaining that everyone else does their CSAM scanning server-side, which becomesliterally impossibleto do with end-to-end encryption.Quote from: bd139 on August 08, 2021, 01:47:18 pmHave you not read the documentation? Itclearlystates that Apple's verification stops at thecontents of the vouchers. If they confirm it, then they disable the account and send areportto law enforcement. That's it. One can infer that at that point, the investigation continues forward just as if the clues had come from any other source: subpoenas for all the stuff on their servers, and a subpoena to the suspect to inspect their devices.Quote from: bd139 on August 08, 2021, 02:21:18 pmThat's an awful lot of pain to accomplish (at most!) what you could have accomplished by just disabling iCloud Photos, which you can do without disabling any other iCloud features. (The sexting filter in the iMessage app isn't applicable to you, since it's anopt-infeature only for accountsbelonging to kids 12 and underANDwithin an iCloud family account.)I say "at most" because of the thing that everyone here is ignoring: Apple is playing catch-up regarding CSAM. Everyone else (FB, Google, etc) has been doing it at large scale for years. Unless you're operatingallthe servers that run the services you need, you aren't escaping anything.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2021, 05:51:24 pm
content: Quote from: magic on August 08, 2021, 09:47:39 amMeaning what, exactly?

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2021, 09:16:42 pm
content: The Internet sure did crank up the gain on society, as well as noise from disinformation.I'm not sure what to believe here but this memo if true is exactly what I would expect the inside spin to be.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2021, 09:53:00 pm
content: The note did not originate from Apple though, as far as i can see.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2021, 12:01:28 am
content: Anyway, I do think those invasive surveillance measures are completely useless at defeating any kind of criminal activity anyway. This may "catch" a few idiots, but unfortunately, I'd think most criminals would know better than to put pictures or videos on surveilled phones and clouds anyway. So as always, they're just using mass surveillance and invading EVERYONE's privacy while criminals will probably continue happily doing their bad deeds while laughing at Apple and the likes.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2021, 08:27:16 am
content: Good technical and political write up:https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/929-One-Bad-Apple.html

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2021, 10:53:07 am
content: I'm not sure what people are concerned about? If you use Apple devices or upload data to any number of cloud services, this stuff has been happening for many years. Most people just don't bother to read the EULA before they click "agree".This isn't new information.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2021, 11:43:41 am
content: They actually changed the EULA retrospectively to cover this on the 1st and 8th of August and yes I did read it before.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2021, 02:42:31 pm
content: You have no privacy anyway...Get over it!Scott McNealy, founder of Sun Microsystems, 1999

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2021, 02:54:58 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 09, 2021, 10:53:07 amAnd FBI paid a million dollars to a 3rd party to break into the shooter's iPhone because of why?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2021, 02:34:30 am
content: Quote from: Bud on August 09, 2021, 02:54:58 pmProbably inter departments ego thingy like NSA won't share it's backdoors to other depts, also from budgeting POV, and maybe corruption too, e.g.: Pegasus fiasco.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2021, 05:11:57 am
content: Quote from: Bud on August 09, 2021, 02:54:58 pmBecause they wanted evidence from a handset and to do so required bypassing Apple's security. Such a thing wasn't available then (to the digital forensics community). That same technology can be bought today for peanuts (but you have to be a special person to buy it). Works all the way up to the current iPhones and IOS versions. Don't forget, the "San Bernardino" example was over 6 years ago now. A lot has changed since then.You're also talking about acquiring data from an offline handset vs. analysing evidence on a live device or in-the-cloud. Also data acquisitions were possible even back then for older Apple handsets, just not the iPhone 5C.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 01:29:53 pm
content: Just in case you thought "you won't have a problem if you've got nothing to hide", here's a precautionary tale of how Google will kill your digital life stone dead:https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/21/technology/google-surveillance-toddler-photo.htmlQuote

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 01:55:22 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 22, 2022, 01:29:53 pmWhat a terrible story. Really people who fall victim to false accusations like this should be entitled to compensation.As for trusting Big Tech.... well, as long as you understand that the device and the information you put on it isn't your private property, their products are definitely usable.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 02:09:55 pm
content: Those who think they are usable don't seem to understand it, though.... or they wouldn't think such things

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 02:55:06 pm
content: Quote from: magic on August 22, 2022, 02:09:55 pmHaha yes, well, for calling your home to say you'll be a little late for dinner, they are probably OK!Making these devices the center of your life? - not so smart.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 03:37:42 pm
content: Good article here as well on surveillance with a one liner that sums it up:https://pluralistic.net/2022/08/21/great-taylors-ghost/#solidarity-or-bust“Successful shitty tech rollouts start with people you can abuse with impunity (prisoners, kids, migrants, etc) and then work their way up the privilege gradient.”

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 06:38:43 pm
content: This is the kind of stuff that makes no not trust phones for anything. Phones are basically designed from the ground up to breach our privacy in every way possible. I run a custom rom (CalyxOS) on mine where they stripped out all the google stuff so I'm probably safer, but I still feel uneasy as I can't help but wonder if there is still spying stuff right at the chip level. Like a sub OS running at a lower level. Phones are just so closed, and basically black boxes, it's not like PC where it's a bit more open and you have more control. Though I do wonder about modern PCs with UEFI etc since they are basically running a mini OS right on the chip, and there are allegations that Intel CPUs themselves have software on them too with spying stuff built in. I really hate how everything is just designed to spy on us now days and the majority of people just accept it because "I have nothing to hide".

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 03:52:32 am
content: I honestly don't understand what the big deal is? I think some people are quick to jump down Apple's throat, without knowing how this stuff works. Allow me to offer my view from a law enforcement perspective.Hash sets derived from known child abuse material have been in existence for quite a long time now. There are a handful of "standard" ones that law enforcement and other companies use. The two biggest ones are Project VIC and CAID. The Australian Federal Police also maintain a hash set that is used by law enforcement agencies here. Theyonlycontain hashes of known child abuse material; that is, material that has already been viewed and classified by specialists in the field. They do not contain hashes of images/videos that "might be" child abuse material (an example of this might be an image of a young child where they may or may not be of legal age).These hash sets are "open" in a sense that, if you are from an agency who has a need to investigate such matters, you can gain access to them. They are also available to manufacturers and developers of digital forensics products. They are not open to the general population for download, because the first thing the criminals will do is "wash" their material through these hash sets to ensure nothing matches.They use algorithms which will not experience a hash collision, that way, every single file in the world will have it's own, unique hash. Comparing a hash against the hash of your personal files doesnotreveal private or sensitive information about you (unless you're a paedophile).Secondly, Apple isn't the first to do this. If you upload content to any number of cloud platforms, whether it be Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, Google, Mega.io etc... etc... they will scan for this kind of content and notify law enforcement agencies if it's located. They will also hand over data (including customer information) when the appropriate authority is given. As a user of these services, you should already be aware of this as you've already agreed to it.Having being the lead analyst in some of the most horrific and inhumane crimes imaginable, an individuals "privacy" is irrelevant in my opinion. Morally speaking, your human right to protect your dick pics from prying eyes doesn't trump the greater good of the community when these sorts of offences are involved.Of course I'm generalising, and there will be valid arguments on both sides of the fence. I value my privacy just like anyone else, but at the end of the day, if it's not a system you designed, you likely don't have complete control of your data, so treat it as such. Ultimately, you as the end-user have a choice on where to spend your money or store your data. No one is forcing you.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 04:18:38 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 23, 2022, 03:52:32 amYou fell for propaganda.It is guaranteed that there exist multiple pairs of files of length N+1, where N is the length of the hash, which map to the same hash value.I don't even need to know anything about the hash to prove it, it's called "pigeonhole principle".

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 04:24:52 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 23, 2022, 03:52:32 amLegally and according the constitution of the US, I'd disagree and I'd point out that with a system like this, you and whoever are asking us all to take it on faith that the system works benevolently and in the limited manner that you say it does. I'm not willing to extend that courtesy because I've seen grotesque abuses of such laws and presume that any such power is likely to be abused if it is wielded behind closed doors.The real sticking point here for some is that while we can understand how a cloud service might be compelled to do thiswith data uploaded to their system, and we might agree to it in the terms of service, in this case the intrusive search mechanism is being done on the users own hardware without their knowledge or consent. In any other context this would probably not be acceptable to most, but if you throw in the pedophile bogeyman everyone feels powerless to protest.Of course I don't want to defend pedophiles--nobody does--but that is what the overreachers are counting on--people not asking questions like "why is it a priority to hunt down people who may possess copies ofold, known and widely circulatedphotos of children when in 99%+ of the cases they had absolutely nothing to do with the original crime, which may have happened years ago".

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 04:37:49 am
content: Quote from: magic on August 23, 2022, 04:18:38 amPropaganda? It's called mathematics. Look at something like SHA-256... the probability of a hash collision is so extraordinarily small.Quote from: bdunham7 on August 23, 2022, 04:24:52 amI'm not suggesting that anyone would be defending them, however child abuse is child abuse. Regardless of whether or not the images are "old" or otherwise. I personally don't see that as a lesser offence.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 04:52:06 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 23, 2022, 04:37:49 amA photo of child abuse is not child abuse, it is evidence of child abuse and in some cases and jurisdictions, a separate offense. The original offense happened when the picture was taken. For any other crime, the photo would simply be evidence of a crime and possession of the photo in and of itself would not be a separate crime. However, there has been a (so far) singular exception carved out in most places now for photographic (and sometimes non-photographic) representations of sexual activity or even merely nudity involving minors. I think not seeing the latter as a different type of offense than the first is being willfully obtuse. And I've seen these laws applied in a grotesquely obtuse fashion on occasion, enough so that I am not willing to cede any privacy rights or anything else to support enforcement of them.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 05:45:21 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 23, 2022, 04:37:49 amUntil it doesn't. They used to say the same about MD5.At any rate, you made it sound like this property is somehow guaranteed, which is utter

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 07:13:05 am
content: Quote from: magic on August 23, 2022, 05:45:21 amAgain, maths. The limitations of MD5 were very well understood early on. Whilst I agree with "never say never", the chances of that are astronomically slim and certainly "good enough" for the purposes being discussed. On the ever-so-remote chance there is a collision in my lifetime, it will be manually verified by a human anyway. I'll also eat my hat. I would also make an educated guess that a single solitary hit wouldn't be enough (but that's just a guess).I'd suggest you go look up how big a number all the possible SHA-256 combinations really is, then you'll start to get some perspective.If you don't wish to take my word for it, you only need to speak to someone (else) in the industry, or perhaps examine the court cases where this has been previously tested (and failed). Also, keep in-mind, no one is talking about anyone being dragged through the courts or being sent to prison because of a hash value. The hashes are used to establish probable cause (and it's damn good probable cause at that), then from there, normal investigative processes commence. In order to be charged with an offence of possessing/distributing child abuse material, the prosecution must to be able to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, all the elements of the offence(s). You don't simply rely on the hash value alone. You also can't rely on AI to be able to classify what is and isn't child abuse material, a human does that.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 07:58:58 am
content: Dude, I know what's hashing.My other point, which you conveniently ignore, was that even if accidental collisions are unlikely, deliberate ones may become possible at some unknown future time and all sorts of fun could be had with that.Besides, is it established that they actually use a modern long hash or is it MD4 and the information that it's MD4 is also classified like the hashes themselves? I believe we are talking US government here

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 08:57:49 am
content: Quote from: magic on August 23, 2022, 07:58:58 amYou don't seem to fully grasp the concept though, so I assumed otherwise.Let's assume the improbable happened and a collision DID occur, what then? That file somehow finds its way onto someones device as a prank, which just so happens to also be a valid image/video file, which is then matched against known bad files, which is then checked by a human only to find out it's nothing?Whilst MD5 hashing is still an option available in most digital forensics software, SHA-1 and SHA-2 are far more popular. That being said, even if it was something weaker like MD5, I've actually stood up in court and given evidence on the probability of that being a collision and it mattered not (the defence was simply trying to find a hole where there wasn't one). As I said, it's more than just the hash itself that's important, it's the contents of the file. For the context of what is being discussed here, even MD5 would be fine to use.Even the absence of any hashing, companies still report back to law enforcement about child abuse material on their servers when they become aware of it. Hashing simply automates some aspects of the whole exercise.Getting back on topic... if being given a choice between having the files hashed and compared against the database, or your files being uploaded to the company to be checked, by AI, a person, whatever... which would you feel more comfortable with? If you don't like the way a company conducts business or designs its products, then don't use them. The issue isn't about the reliability of use of hashes as evidence against someone, it's about the policies Apple are implementing.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 09:24:47 am
content: Hashing is a poor technical measure as well. Ignoring improbable collisions it has other problems:1. The blacklist can be poisoned through incompetence.2. The blacklist can be poisoned through malicious intent.3. The blacklist has no independent oversight.4. The blacklist can be extended to other material later.5. The hash is not necessarily traceable back to the original image / material thus is impossible to re-moderate.6. You have to store the original material if you want to regenerate the list.7. It's a byte level hash so adding pixel changes and noise circumvents the whole thing.There is no choice but to put these stupid fucking retarded ideas where they belong: in the trash.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 09:43:06 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 23, 2022, 09:24:47 amThis is an interesting idea and one that has been raised many times before. The truth is, crooks are (mostly) dumb and it doesn't stop them from getting caught. There is a good reason why things like Project VIC are very effective.You will never solve 100% of crime. Sadly, things like possessing child abuse material is slowing becoming "volume crime".

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 09:45:34 am
content: The only people getting caught are illiterate loosers who jerk to it.I sometimes use some warez sites (for non-cheese-pizza content) and make no mistakes, those people know what they are doing.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 09:49:43 am
content: Quote from: magic on August 23, 2022, 09:45:34 amOh absolutely. And law enforcement know all about it. You think they aren't on those same sites and on the dark web? I can tell you some stories.I guess fortunate for us who are normal, the "smart" crooks make up a small minority.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 10:34:09 am
content: More shit from the EU nowhttps://old.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/voaicx/10_error_rate_is_okay_leaked_eu_commission/

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 11:17:22 am
content: QuoteHoly shit, where can I get the software for this, there is like a few dozen people I would hit it with immediately

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 11:37:22 am
content: I assume that's people you don't like(oh another vector there!)

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 12:22:54 pm
content: QuoteThat actually makes it worse. Once people think it's a so remote chance it's never likely to happen, the time when it does happen just can't be real so clearly someone is pulling a fast one and should be nicked anyway. The less chance of it happening, the greater the danger of a miscarriage when it does happen.And, as the NYTimes article I posted above shows, it doesn't matter if even law enforcement say it's not real kiddie porn and a mistake - the poor person caught out is fucked for life anyway.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 12:34:02 pm
content: I have a question: if the system only relies on matching a hash database of known pedofile pictures against the pictures on the mobile phone, how is it supposed to detect newly taken pictures? If it doesn't do that, why should it search phones to start with? I would imagine that pedofiles don't install a library of pictures on their phone?My problem with this technology is that a governmental agency is running software on my device without my consent or without informing me. At my cost (bandwidth, energy, CPU load). I am no pedofile or criminal, so why should I be investigated?Also, there are so many evident crimes that are not persecuted but could easily be, that I wonder why this matter is consider more urgent.Finally, let me mention Eppstein: convicted and suicided for sex trafficking of minors, yet no customer has been charged?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 01:15:55 pm
content: Quote from: Bicurico on August 23, 2022, 12:34:02 pmEven before charges are pressed, who are they? Where is thephonebookwith the names of the customers?The elites in power are there to protect only themselves, nothing more. Think of it next time you read about "scandal X" and who is being implied and actually is sentenced at the end of the day.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 02:47:12 pm
content: Quote from: magic on August 23, 2022, 04:18:38 amYeah if you take something with say 100,000 characters and try to condense it into something that is say 16 characters, no matter what, you will eventually get a collision. Otherwise, you just invented the Pied Piper of compression algorithms!As for "the greater good" that is a very very dangerous thing to say and I see it often and it's usually to try to justify stuff like this. The very premise of communism is "for the greater good" and the people are the ones that suffer in the end via loss of rights, freedoms, etc.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 08:49:21 pm
content: Two major issues there IMO:- Basic one: we may just not want this total surveillance society that is coming up. Period. Already a ton of existing books and movies about that. No need to guess or even to give it a chance: we exactly know what that means and how it ends up. No need to pretend it will be all different, because guess what? It won't be.- Currently, systems (most being ML-based) are being deployed and get official authorizations while they are still not validated and are known to still be unreliable. (That's true for mass surveillance, autonomous vehicles, and so on.) With sometimes little or unclear recourse.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 02:51:06 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 23, 2022, 12:22:54 pmNo one is ever charged with an offence such as possession of CAM, without someone, a human, doing some work.No one is "caught out and fucked for life" with this kind of stuff, when they haven't done anything wrong. That's not how the justice system works... even in the USA.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 04:58:32 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 24, 2022, 02:51:06 amOh really? Felony charges and mandatory sex offender registration for minors that have taken pictures of themselves? That sounds pretty much like fucked for life to me. I suppose they have "done something wrong" so it's all OK....https://www.aclu-wa.org/blog/sexting-and-law-press-send-turn-teenagers-registered-sex-offenders

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 05:14:30 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 24, 2022, 04:58:32 amUsing Apple or Android spyphones does count as "doing something wrong" in my book.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 05:41:50 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 24, 2022, 02:51:06 amyou say that.The moment your name is associated with kids you are marked. it doesn't matter if it's the truth, you are marked and that will follow you because people develop selective hearing and selective reading. There will be always someone who doesn't know the truth and even if you try to move a million miles away someone will find out why and people there will start thinking but why did he move away if he's innocent*. Unless of course you are a catholic priest, not even a joke. For that people develop selective hearing in the other sense "They must not be!" no matter the hard evidence, and if it's really blatant they just get transfered nearby, where a bunch of other bigots won't believe the priest did anything wrong. Seen that happen a few times.*The president of our local footbal team got accused of molesting kids. You know, he did also train the children's team for almost thirty years, including all of my childhood friends so it's pretty scary, even though we can't believe it. overnight there were dozens of news articles with the face and the name and everything. He of course had to resign, quit his job. Months later it turned out it was a family of pieces of shit who decided to try to spread the rumor in order to extort some money from the guy. A single brief article was made, but the damage was done permanently. Who can trust him now that the seed of doubt has been planted? Last i heard he was trying to sue back the newspapers, don't know how it will end. People kill themselves for a lot less, when you take something they care from them in this way

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 08:47:33 am
content: Just look on next Louis video how google do the same and just fucks peoples lives for false alarmsNo protection, you are on a mercy of your AI overlord

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 09:17:57 am
content: What I fear most is the symbiose of big tech gigants like Apple, Google, Amazon, etc. and goverments.This is not lobbying it is plain corruption.How is it possible that a small company in the EU is supposed to have a data privacy delegate, to assure that privacy laws are respected to a point where keeping a customer email can become critical, while Google is recording all transcribed phone conversations?And the problem is exactly this: once you are flagged, even if you can prove that you did not othing wrong and the flagging resulted from poor AI or an error of the service provider, you have nobody to talk to. They don't care: you are one person amongst BILLION of users!And yes, we may have the erroneous flagging of people, we may have the correct flagging of people, but we also may have the flagging on PURPOSE! This is done to eliminate any unwanted competition: in elections, as a competing startup, as an annoying voice.What if Google or Apple flaggs Louis on purpose, as if it was a mistake? Lucky for him, he will at least be better off than the average guy, because he has a wider audience.I really would wish that the suckers at the EU goverment would stop imposing the standard length of saussages and financing stupid goals as EU funded projects. Instead they should make an effort to limit the influence of US based tech gigants in the EU and sponsor the development of propper competition. It is sad to see how the EU has fallen behind on IT - at all levels.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 10:32:38 am
content: Quote from: Bicurico on August 24, 2022, 09:17:57 amAs an EU citizen, you are to some extent protected from thisPlenty of people use national email and other servicesSo they are somewhat isolated at least when using their windows based devicesThe Bank system is also organized in a different waySo they will lose "only" the phoneAnd I know a lot of Android users who live happily without any cloud services or accountsThe other thing is the EU will never have tech giants, it just won't allow itThere are too many obstacles to entering and growing a companyAnd if some miracle will happen they will chop it afterwardThey barely tolerate things like VW, Bosch, Siemens, and of course Oil companiesBut they predate the EU, employ a big portion of the population, and of course are a big part of national economies.

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 10:41:22 am
content: Meanwhile back in Google territory:https://news.yahoo.com/dad-took-photos-naked-toddler-142928196.htmlEven though the police cleared the guy, Google refuses to reinstate his accounts.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 12:57:17 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 09, 2021, 12:01:28 amYou meant folks like Hunter Biden? and his laptop? not even encrypted FBI say....... well, FBI "not" a criminal governmentalorganization the fedgov say.... while a huge number of american citizens violently disagree.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 02:23:09 pm
content: If you want to share any form of ilicit data, you use regular mail and send a USB disk or an SD card.This is quick and safe for the criminal, since the data can be easily encrypted beyond govermental decryption methods. Plus, it is easy to hide the data to start with. A regular letter with attached MicroSD that shows a Word document is all there is to be found. Run an "undelete" tool and gigabytes of files are revealed. Or just include a ZIP archive with a very long password.And with this simple example I think I have shown how ridiculous it is to control the ENTIRE POPULATION and remove their privacy to find a few criminals who just use a more secure method.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 05:08:14 pm
content: QuoteIdiots like, say, the police?https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/nov/19/police-chief-convicted-for-having-child-sex-abuse-video-on-phone-robyn-williams

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 06:51:18 pm
content: Yep, a perfect exampleMeanwhile the author of the video is free.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 07:07:42 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 24, 2022, 05:08:14 pmThat's the thing about witch hunts--they devolve into indiscriminate, ill-considered campaigns that eventually ensnare people who are totally innocent of anything that would be considered a crime by sane, reasonable people. Does anyone want to step up and defend this case as a reasonable exercise of state power?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 07:17:06 pm
content: Well, arguably, yes, the policewoman and half of her family have been nailed for incompetence and distributing materials between themselves that they weren't supposed to distribute, instead of initiating formal procedures.Now, whether you agree with the law or not, your taxes pay some people to actually enforce and follow it, so

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 03:02:32 am
content: Quote from: magic on August 23, 2022, 05:45:21 amAs I said, the collision potential in MD5 was known about not long after it was published. As I also said, it's still deemed "good enough for many applications".Never did I say that hashing was "guaranteed", in fact, I said the opposite, which you clearly chose to ignore. Please don't make ridiculous, falsified claims on my behalf.I think you still fail to see how what you're describing still isn't really a problem for the specific application we are talking about in this thread. You seem to be inventing problems where they don't exist. I think I'll defer to expert opinion. instead of yours, if you don't mind.Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 24, 2022, 05:08:14 pmI think that's a bit of a generalisation. The actions of an individual does not mean that all in that group are idiots. I've personally investigated police internally for similar crimes, does that make me an idiot? Nope. I'm glad we got them though! The last guy got something like 16 years in jail. Good result.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 03:27:11 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 25, 2022, 03:02:32 amYou think the case in that link was a good result? You're frightening me...

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 04:55:23 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 25, 2022, 03:02:32 amOnce again will I quote the post which started this whole stupid discussion about hashing and I have no desire to continue it any further.Quote from: Halcyon on August 23, 2022, 03:52:32 am(BTW, it's supposed to be its rather than it's, but I keep making this mistake myself too because English is simply weird.)

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 05:14:11 am
content: Quote from: magic on August 25, 2022, 04:55:23 amNo, lets be fair here because this is a bit of a false contradiction. Obviously if the hash is much smaller than the original file size, then you can't rule out the possibility of a collision. And if you look a the universe of all possible files of that size, there would have to be collisions simply because there are more possible files than hashes. However, for something like SHA256, it is unlikely that any two non-identical files created on this planet at any time in human history would have the same hash. Therefore, it is very likely (I mean like 99.99999999999999999999999999% or better) that provided an adequate algorithm is used, every non-identical file in the world will indeed have its own unique hash, just as stated. Theoretically it might not be guaranteed, but practically and statistically it is.However, I'll also say that I believe that the technology being used these days different than a straightforward hashing algo, in fact calling it a 'hash' is probably a deliberate deception to mask what they are really doing. And while I disapprove of the whole show, the possibility of hash collisions even on inferior algorithms or non-deterministic AI isn't one of my concerns.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 05:18:49 am
content: I don't know what exact technology is used and I'm not convinced if Halcyon knows it exactly either.I oppose this exact sentence quoted because it simply is not true. Even if you believe that a random collision is unlikely to ever occur in practice, deliberate collisions are also a possibility as soon as whichever algorithm they use is broken.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 05:54:17 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 25, 2022, 03:27:11 amThe case I most recently dealt with was a good result. I wasn't talking about the idiot in the link.Quote from: magic on August 25, 2022, 05:18:49 amI've explained why, even in the extremely unlikely event of a collision, why it's not really all that important in this context. But you can continue ignoring that part if you like.As I said, you can consider MD5 "broken", but it's still in wide use today, and that's perfectly OK for these types of applications. People much smarter than you have tried to argue this point in court and have failed.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 07:11:23 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 25, 2022, 05:54:17 amWas it really necessary, and from a moderator at that?The only personal remark about you I recall making is that I doubt you know the details of this scheme's implementation, and you don't seem to be denying this.Quote from: Halcyon on August 25, 2022, 05:54:17 amI made no claims about validity of any arguments.Quote from: Halcyon on August 25, 2022, 05:54:17 amIt isn't suitable, because MD5 collision attacks are known which enable creation ofidenticaldifferent files with the same checksum.I could upload one such file containing CP somewhere so it would end up in the police database.I could send a different file with the same checksum to you and you would save it because it doesn't look like CP to you.Your cloud account is banned automatically and maybe you have the pigs knocking on your door if they didn't look at the file and just "trusted the experts". Enjoy all your electronics sized for a search and maybe returned after a few months/years if they find nothing, or maybe they find some pirate Windows or other shit.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 08:21:07 am
content: Quote from: Bicurico on August 24, 2022, 02:23:09 pmJust be aware that not telling a password is considered a crime in some countriesAnd avoiding modern "conveniences" like having everything in the cloud can make you a suspicious person together with sending lettersBut agreeBut it is nothing new. All that law enforcement is targeted toward low-hanging fruits. Like in a war against drugs. They catch a few grannies smuggling a bag of coke and a drug addict dealer from the back street and call it a success while spending millions

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 11:07:06 am
content: Quote from: Miyuki on August 25, 2022, 08:21:07 amIf I was a criminal and wanted to share 1TB of illegal data (of whatever sort), I would simply exchange a 2.5" HDD in person, considering that I am not targeted, yet, which is what all this mass-surveillance is all about.You have to be pretty dumb to think that the average criminal of IT related stuff is stupid enough to put illegal content on a cloud server, web server or mail server.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 11:22:18 am
content: Quote from: Bicurico on August 25, 2022, 11:07:06 amPoliticians do dumb things like this all the timeAnd they expect criminals are at the same level

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 11:40:47 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 25, 2022, 03:02:32 amAh, I didn't mean it labelled any policemaperson as an idiot. Rather that it can erroneously catch and screw over even those who know the rules inside out and are generally seen as trustworthy and above board individuals. Your average citizen doesn't stand a chance in comparison.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 11:46:33 am
content: I used to think that politicians are dumb.While this may be true for some, I nowadays believe that most are indeed brilliant and very smart. They act dumb on purpose, when required. If they were really dumb, then people like myself (smarter than average dumb) would be in their places, but it seems I am not smart/good enough to enter that spheres.And not being dumb at all, their decisions seem odd to us, but really they just happen to follow a different agenda. Their goals do not match what "the people" want.This is a fundamental discussion, though, because democracy has a major flaw: more than often, the majority is actually wrong. And we all know that the majority of people are indeed dumb. So if the majority could actually make decisions like democracy suggests, then we would see many wrong decisions! Examples of what the majority would want to decide:- lower taxes- free healthcare- free education- free ...- lower retirement age- free parking- no speed limit- lower gas/energy/food price- ...The majority, however, would be indifferent to the question where the money comes from. They would bite the hand that feeds them: the rich. They would forget that the rich generate wealth. Without rich people investing in companies, we would have no jobs and as such no wealth or tax money... It is really more complicated than what the average citizen can grasp.In my opinion, there is a political agenda, more than often controlled by organisations and groups of people which are hidden behind the politicians. They control what is happening, independantly of what party has been elected.In order to better mask this reality, stupid topics are brought on the agenda, feeding hate and disagreement (like the whole gender debate, for instance - how can this have so much exposure, when it represents so few people, compared to much more important subjects that affect many more people).The world has always been run like this, by few organizations (like the Masons, Opus Dei or Communist party collectiv). However, a new problem arose: the information society.Suddenly, goverments cannot control the virtual gathering of people, ideas and information. And that scares them and they will only rest when every individual on the internet is automatically controlled (not enough resources to do it otherwise).The whitch hunting for pedos or other criminals is just a pretext to implement the absence of any privacy on the internet against goverments.Want to hunt pedos? Why not start with the catholic church? Why not use decoys and catch the networks that operate professionally? As I already mentioned, why not monitor the well-being of children in a better way? The pedo victims normally come from disfunctional families and it is the state that failed to help the affected children, despite manifestation of symptons in kindergarten or school.Another big problem in current days is the concept of "political correctness". I am in doubt if it is ok to post what I write and think. Because current culture does not like those that use science, rationality and academic reasoning when used against hysteria issues like pedo, gender, BLM, etc.How can this situation be changed? There is only one way: by educating the people and have them thinking for themselfes. I try to do that as a teacher. With limited success, if any.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 12:20:48 pm
content: Politicians are not dumb in a way of low IQ.They fall into the trap of narcissist psychopathy. They believe that are superior and know everything.They also have insider information to make great business deals and gain huge money at the edge of the law. And most of them will have many lawyers to check it is still somewhat Ok.There is also a big difference between the US and Europe. As the US is close to an oligarchy and both of their parties are closely connected with them. Whereas the EU with many independent parties competing with each other is a kind of self-organizing chaos. With no strong force behind it.One can discuss what is better. But the index of living conditions is better for the EU.But if you want to make a big business US is way better.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 12:35:44 pm
content: I do agree with you.And to sum up my participation in this thread: the whole issue is (as most things) more complicated that it seems.Back on topic, I would like to add:If you have a file with 10 bytes and generate a hash with 1 byte, you will have 256^10 diferent possible files, all represented by just 256 different hashes. Of course there will be collisions.No matter how much you expand this relation, unless the hash is composed of the same number of bytes as the input file, there will be collisions.And files can be manipulated so that the hash is different and excluded from the database or innocent files can be manipulated to produce the same hash as an illegal file. With both damage can be done on purpose.The random collisions, while statistically not frequent (take a hash with many more combinations than the number of files that will be analyzed), can and will happen, like the LOTTO Jackpot is distributed every now and then dispite the odds. And being wrongly flagged by AI because of a hash collision WILL cause damage to the poor victim.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 12:45:10 pm
content: I have one funny experience with AI failure on FacebookThe photo of my cat was flagged as pornographyI know he is hairless and it makes it complicated for AI to distinguishBut it just illustrates at what level those algorithms are today