Kickstarter vs. Arduino *ding*ding*ding* - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2012, 04:10:18 am
content: http://hackaday.com/2012/11/27/kickstarter-incurs-the-wrath-of-arduino-creator/Apparently Arduino is a getting fed up with people trading on it's name.Most recently is this kickstarter project:http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fairduino/smartduino-open-system-by-former-arduinos-manufactAlthough I agree that the blatant use of the name isn't the right thing to do (and the claims that it's from the "former adruino manufactures" is laughable) - it's a touchy area.Should Arduino start protecting it's trademark? Or would that turn it into the school yard bully of the OSHW world?

author: TorqueRanger
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2012, 04:16:53 am
content: My answer would be --- YESIf it was you and you where losing money, you wouldn't go after him ??

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2012, 05:30:28 am
content: I don't think they're losing money because of this, it's the fact others are exploiting that name for their own ends. It confuses the product image and dilutes the brand. They're gonna have to do something.

author: nardev
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2012, 05:34:17 am
content: Quote from: poptones on November 28, 2012, 05:30:28 amAgree,overall, the most important thing is on the side of customers-students, the most important thing is to learn!

author: bullet308
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2012, 05:41:26 am
content: A trademark that is not defended soon becomes genericized in the eyes of the law. You might as well have never copyrighted it, or even named it.I see evidence that the Arduino guys really never thought the whole branding thing through they way they probably should have .

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2012, 08:34:20 am
content: Quote from: george graves on November 28, 2012, 04:10:18 amWell, I think this case is not simply "yet another 'duino" board, but the description of it in KS sounds almost like Arduino is now a thing of the past, as it has been superseded by this new wonderkid on the block. Plus the lie on the manufacturing.IMHO no wonder that Banzi's tickmeoff-meter hit the offscale.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2012, 09:26:01 am
content: I was about to defend whatever-projectduino-is-popular-today by saying that arduino themselves allow the use of the -duino suffix etc, but the kickstarter project linked is pretty horrendous, so I can see their point. I mean, even ignoring the capitalisation in the project name of the word "ARDUINO", they've used it outright too! And the comparison shots of...an arduino! Saying how crap it is compared to the shiny new product... wow.Of course, this is not kickstarter's fault - they should be going after the project creator only.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2012, 10:07:56 am
content: How can Kickstarter possibly be expected to vet stuff like that?, that idea is just silly.If you have (documented) proof the funders are lying, then maybe Kickstarter should investigate, but otherwise it's not Kickstarters problem.Dave.

author: Harvs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2012, 10:18:18 am
content: Even aside from all the comparisons with Arduino, I stuggle to comprehend how many people have thrown over $100 at this kit.Gees people, look at what you can get for less than $20 in dev boards from the big manufactures... Why on earth would you blow over $200 on a bunch of stacking AVRs?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2012, 01:34:18 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 28, 2012, 10:07:56 amA headline statement like "For years we manufactured the ARDUINO in Italy." is not hard to check, espsecially if the contact is not coming form the Arduino domain name. This is blatent deceptive trademark abuse, and Kickstarter could be seen as not having applied due diligence.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2012, 02:45:44 pm
content: Quote from: Harvs on November 28, 2012, 10:18:18 amMaybe they don't want to switch to an alternative architecture like ARM or C2000. And while a single ARM would probably be a better choice than using 4 Arduinos in one box, you can't separate it for use in 4 different places.I think it's fine for Arduino to ensure that their products don't get confused with that of a competitor's, but if they go crazy the way Apple does, that'll be another reason to stick with PIC.

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2012, 03:21:05 pm
content: The people who are buying arduinos are not buying them to make production stuff - they're hobbyists having fun, and the arduino support community and ide make that possible. This is why the Arduino folks need to protect their brand.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2012, 03:54:52 pm
content: Link to Smartduino bloghttp://smartduino.com/blog/QuoteI'm not sure which is more stupid calling it "smARtDUINO" or using the Arduino tool-chain in order to sell a rival Arduino type product. I think Kickstarter really should have at least a minimal duty of care! Surely it doesn't take a genius working as a patent clerk to work it out ;-)

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2012, 03:58:02 pm
content: Quote from: jucole on November 28, 2012, 03:54:52 pmConsidering the latter is allowed, I think we have the answer.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2012, 07:40:42 pm
content: I don't understand the whole issue. Arduino "community" is not really acommunity- people there have very little incommon. It seems to be a sump for those who abandoned other platforms purely on cost reasons. I can understand Dave's frustration when he hit problems using Arduino for PSU project. There is no-one around to ask - very few people using Arduino platform know it inside out and can maintain coherent discussion. So moral principles do not really matter to most *uino consumers. Copying and calling something yours is easy.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 29, 2012, 12:03:11 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 28, 2012, 01:34:18 pmYes, it is, for someone who has no clue what an Arduino is, and no clue about the electronics manufacturing industry or the technicalities of how it works.The onus is on the claimant (Arduino) to provide sufficient proof, and if they do so, Kickstarter should then consider taking it seriously of course. But in this case they do have several people who have worked in the Arduino factory, so it kinda comes down to semantics. So I can't really blame Kickstarter for opting out of dealing with this one.Dave.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2012, 01:14:55 am
content: Quote from: poptones on November 28, 2012, 03:21:05 pmThat's right. And also take in count the way he implies the team had close ties with the Arduino team when they didn't. That would mislead the community into thinking this is official to some extent.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2012, 07:13:06 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 29, 2012, 12:03:11 amIs it?Where I live the trademark owner (i.e. the Arduino guys) can do with their trademark whatever they like to do with it. They have the sole right to grant the right to others to use it. Just having someone on your team who once worked for a subcontractor of the Arduino guys doesn't automatically buy you that right.If the trademark owners say you don't have the right to use that trademark you don't have the right. And where I live, if you knowingly assist a trademark abuser or if you could reasonably know that a trademark is abused, you are liable, too. I.e. latest when someone tells you "hey, that is our trademark, and these guys have no right to use it", you know, and you should better act. Especially, if you earn a share of money from the trademark abuse, like Kickstarter does.The only thing the smartthing guys could claim is some of the fair use exceptions when it is legal to use someone else's trademark. But that is a bit of a stretch to use such an exception to call yourself an Arduino manufacturer just because you have hired two former workers from an Aruino subcontractor who happened to solder pin headers into shields.

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2012, 07:36:41 am
content: Well, here's my take on it. I'm not party to the Arduino team but a substantial part of my business comes from producing kits that are focused around the Arduino. And I don't like this gig. It dilutes the Arduino brand and causes confusion, which potentially affects MY business. This isn't just about the Arduino people protecting their own trademark; if someone thinks these new parts are "Arduino" then my customers may start wondering why I'm not supporting it. I don't like that.I also don't care for the granulartity of these things. Most of the money ends up being spent on connectors because every last "block" is basically one or two ICs on a breakout board. A US made Nano can be had here for less than ten bucks; it will work with any breadboard and has a built in usb port and a standard interface to the ide. These other boards may have physical connectivity to arduino boards but they're NOT software compatible, and the software is a huge part of what makes these things friendly. If I'm not a beginner and I want to go with an ARM, why would I go with a stack of breakout boards when I can get a standalone board with more functionality for less money?No one can stop these people from selling their product, and maybe it will have appeal to some. But their marketing needs to be changed ASAP, and the arduino folks are the only ones who can start that happening.

author: HardBoot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2012, 07:47:48 am
content: Kickstarter is inherently stupid for hardware or software.Why?If you have a working prototype, there's next to no additional cost finishing it, the money is just pocketed.It's just a store to buy pre-releases.This case is classic riding off someone else's name.

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2012, 08:02:34 am
content: Are you kidding? I'm working right now on a robot kit that requires a custom piece of cardboard. Do you have any idea how much that stuff costs? The cardboard is cheap but there's a die charge for hundreds and a plate cost for printing of hundreds more. All told it will cost more than $1000 to have 100 boxes made so I have to buy 1000 to make it practical. That's 1600 bucks up front JUST for the box. 250 boards are about 750 bucks, that means four batches as I can afford totaling almost 3 grand, plus I get all the fun of assembling them or paying someone to do it manually because most of the board is connectors that have to be hand or wave soldered and I can't afford custom assembly. Stepper motors have to be bought in lots of 1000 to get a good price, that means another 3 grand up front.It can cost a HUGE amount of money to move something from prototype to production. Sure if all you're doing is a pc board that's easy and fairly cheap - but try putting together a real kit of parts and you'll see initial investment costs ramp up quick. Not a problem if you're lady ada or the boys from sparkfun, but for someone just starting to build a business it's a huge investment.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2012, 08:19:13 am
content: Quote from: HardBoot on November 29, 2012, 07:47:48 amYou clearly don't have a clue about the practicalities of putting things into production.For example I just spent a week building a test jig for a board that took a couple of days to design.The price/volume curve on components, PCBs and assembly is very nonlinear between tens and thousands, so you want to be able to build as many as you can, requiring significant investment.There are always tooling & setup costs for any manufacturing process, which can range from hundreds to many thousands.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 29, 2012, 10:47:55 am
content: Basically the name "smARtDUINO" according to Arduino is essentially a mix between Arduino and the name of the real manufacturer in Italy (Smart Projects ) also he incorrectly defined himself as a "former Arduino manufacturer", which he isn't. So Arduino feel they have confused backers in multiple ways.

author: Achilles
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2012, 05:49:02 pm
content: Well, there are plenty of Projects with the same idea as Arduino but more features or advanced.....just like the Maple/Leaf 32bit stuff or the Pinguino 32bit. They often somehow refer to Arduino (as the use the same IDE and are often based on Arduino)....but, just telling people it's better and newer and Arduino is rubbish now kinda sucks. When you have a great Idea and you are really thinking that may lift up, you won't need the help of another product's good reputation.It somehow reminds me on the creepy ebay offers like "VC99, Like Fluke professional" and so on.If you plan a commercial product....get your ass up and don't grab another's (marketing and support) work.....at least it's yellow....

author: HardBoot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2012, 02:33:30 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 29, 2012, 08:19:13 amI wasn't referring to mass manufacturing upfront cost, development of crude little 1-day project boards is nil if you already have a working spin that could go straight to production, as 90% of kickstarter things are.I've only done batches of PCBs that fit on a single sheet to snap apart, but even at the smallest scale, high unit cost doesn't hurt unless you're doing something complicated.Why so many asking for $25'000+ for little $10-30 boards that cost $2-6 at their target quantity, beats me, the real upfront for quantity is more like $5k with all of those simple things.Kickstarter is an over-glorified pre-order store, large targets seems to be part psychology(people more driven to go for big things).I've only ever used small Chinese shops, they can't do anything fancy, big SMD, double sided at most, only had 1 bad board which needed a fix so far, solder jumping two qfp leads.Test jigs for kickstarter things are 10-second ordeals generally, plug in programmer, plug in logic sniffer(or in my case, an LED matrix which used up all of the IO pins), flash with test problem, oh yay it's spitting out the expected pattern.You do some serious shit that shoots far over most kickstarter projects.

author: Obi_Kwiet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2012, 04:06:07 am
content: This kickstarter seems stupid anyway. I don't see what you could do with it other than make slightly more elaborate, but just a useless "Hello World" blinking led type programs. If you want to do anything useful you will at least need to go breadboard or perfboard, at which point the modularity advantage is lost.

author: nardev
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 02, 2012, 01:14:16 pm
content: Quote from: poptones on November 28, 2012, 03:21:05 pm