Apple bricking iPhones - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: gnavigator1007
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 06:58:07 pm
content: Sorry if this has already been posted. I haven't seen it discussed in the forums.http://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/feb/05/error-53-apple-iphone-software-update-handset-worthless-third-party-repair

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 07:28:44 pm
content: Sure apple, aue their pants off.

author: HAL-42b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 07:34:53 pm
content: "Ha ha It is still OUR phone no matter how much you paid for it. Now go and buy another one you dirty plebe!"-Apple probably.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 07:52:15 pm
content: Yes, apple are dicks. What FTDI have done (and everyone is yelling about) is nothing compared with this.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 08:27:51 pm
content: Interesting:Edit: Maybe it's just to get views?Or real? don't know.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 08:43:42 pm
content: But, disconnecting the battery when the phone is locked will result in the 22 million minutes lock delay.Choices...Apple does have a fair point that breaking the session of the touch id and the motherboard is tampering.But it should not be a reason to lock up the entire phone. Apparently they think otherwise.Meanwhile, remember that the tech companies are promoting the use of encrypted devices. Maybe this is a result of Edward Snowden?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 08:53:08 pm
content: Applesexplabation makes perfect sense to me. The handshake or pairing is the right thing to do.However, if the handshake can be reestablished by reconnecting the battery, that's piss poor engineering.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 09:05:51 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on February 06, 2016, 08:43:42 pmThey are free to lock as much as they want but immediately after the part replacement, not by bricking the phone after a year beyond repair without any possibility to fix it and destroying your data at the same time. Also if your original home button failed, you are completely screwed too.QuoteNo, this is a result of uncontrolled greed.This smells like a class act. Moreover they don't offer any repair by themselves, they just swap your device with another refurbished at the insane price. And this only if your phone had not any liquid damage or significant mechanical damage (except cracked screen).

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 09:11:12 pm
content: Also, I don't know why the repair shops chose to discard the original home button with the original touch ID on it. Sure it's a quicker fix not to do a full repair, but they could have at least try to repair it back to spec.I do get Apples position on Security for stolen phones.The number of customers affected are on the noise level for them, so they probably don't care much on loosing a couple of thousands on sales.Then again, they could get a class action suit and see if that gets them somewhere.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 09:14:56 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on February 06, 2016, 09:11:12 pmYeah, except that finding a REPLACED sensor does NOT indicate "stolen" phone. It indicates a "repaired" phone.And it is transparently fatuous if it took them a year to include the "security" check in the firmware updtate.For those of us who have no respect for Apple, this comes as no particular surprise. Except maybe that it took them so long.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 09:43:02 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on February 06, 2016, 09:11:12 pmIt does not add any additional security against being stolen. PCB by itself is being locked by find my iphone.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 10:32:44 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on February 06, 2016, 09:52:51 pmBecause each headphones have more advertising cost in themselves than actual manufacturing cost.Quote

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 11:33:27 pm
content: Fucking hell, even for apple this is god damn shocking, I wonder how long it is until they ad it to their computers, just to cinch things down with the glued in batteries and ram/HDD being part of the board in their macbooks.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 11:44:07 pm
content: Well that's why competition is good. It gives consumer choices.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 11:53:05 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on February 06, 2016, 09:52:51 pmFortunately they won't get away with that in the EU. Under EU law they will have to replace the phones which are now bricked so they shot themselves in their feet big time. It is funny to see American companies fail at being aware of the EU laws even though it is typically one of their largest markets.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 12:00:13 am
content: QuoteCivilized people should just leave backwaters like that. Let's them continue to use their Nokia phones.QuoteTwo reasons:1. some people just like ghetto sound. White guilt maybe?2. some people just want to part with their money.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 12:04:29 am
content: I think some new law took effect this year that lets companies brick stuff if some kind of violation of eulas can be claimed. If its not there its definitely in TPP.Also, I think they all (countries) may get equal backdoors.

author: PTR_1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 12:14:22 am
content: I use an apple laptop and have a iphone. I like the apple stuff but am definitely not a racing mad fanboy that says their precious apple can't do bad.Them saying this is for security is a crock of sh*t. If it really was for security and it detected a failure in the pairing, they should lock the phone (normal security pass code lock), delete the fingerprint data and disable the fingerprint scanner so it will only unlock via the code.This way the customer can still use the phone but the device is secure.

author: crispy_tofu
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 12:39:18 am
content: Here's another Louis Rossmann video explaining this:He makes some good points, too.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 01:22:12 am
content: Wow Louis can really rant. Makes Dave look like a softy.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 03:04:58 am
content: I don't see an issue. It makes sense that it would have a unique ID. But it sounds like disconnecting the battery fixes the problem, so what's the issue?Quote from: blueskull on February 06, 2016, 09:52:51 pmHave you heard of Sennheiser Orpheus 2? Look them up sometimes. Apple's got nothing on Sennheiser. Sennheiser also loves to use proprietary connectors.I am not a fan of Beats headphones, I own a few pairs of decent headphones, my favourite being Mad Dogs. But Beats Solo 2 are price competitive with the rest of the similarly performing headphones.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 03:10:04 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 03:04:58 amFrom what I've seen so far, the issue is that such a procedure has not been shown to be a reliable solution. It is still anecdotal on a very, very small scale.

author: gnavigator1007
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 03:15:00 am
content: Never been willing to use their garbage in the first place. While I can't help but feel bad for people affected, I've got to admit to being somewhat entertained by the whole thing. Seems to be a very foolish move on the part of Apple, what with sales being lower than expected and smartphone sales on the decline. Good luck to them expanding in China!

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 03:17:00 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 07, 2016, 03:10:04 amWe'd need to know the facts.. but even if they attempted to lock it I can see it being driven by a government agency security type mandate. It would make it harder to spoof the fingerprint and unlock someone's phone in a number of scenarios.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 03:21:50 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on February 07, 2016, 03:15:25 amWhat does that even mean? Sennheiser is the most popular mid-fi headphone manufacturer.The Inner Fidelity dude is known to be a no nonsense headphone reviewer. He doesn't just do subjective listening tests he also does objective measurements. And his review of Solo 2s ranks them pretty highly.I think people just jump on any opportunity to hate on Apple. I don't like Beats because I think they look tacky. But the Solo 2s as reviewed by Innerfidelity are not a rip off.

author: gnavigator1007
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 03:35:31 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on February 07, 2016, 03:19:02 amNo, not my concern at all. I was only referring to their much lower than expected sales in China and how error 53 may impact future sales. Sorry for the misunderstanding and for the unfortunate social problems caused by Apple brand appeal.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 09:06:20 am
content: "I know quite some guys got dumped by their GF for not buying an iPhone for her."Once in a while a reminder comes along pointing out that being too old for the dating scene is a good thing, this is one of those times. Whatever happened to the odd box of chocolates or bunch of flowers?

author: crispy_tofu
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 09:26:48 am
content: Quote from: German_EE on February 07, 2016, 09:06:20 amSpoiled kids.

author: han
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 10:28:40 am
content: Quote from: crispy_tofu on February 07, 2016, 09:26:48 amToo many kim kardashian. Send them to Kim Jong Un instead

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 10:29:32 am
content: Also slightly off topic.One of my closest mates who is probably reading this is in the process of building a house with the family living on site and has virtually run out of money gave his teenage son and daughter the choice of either an iphone each or walls for their individual bedrooms, it's absolutely true.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 10:45:49 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on February 07, 2016, 03:19:02 amGood for those guys. Got rid of those leeches.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 11:09:44 am
content: Any argument that it's for security is a complete lie, as it would stop working immediately, not on an update.Additonally, anything that bricks the phone is simply deliberate damage ( possibly illegal in some countries).If there is a security issue all it needs to do is wipe data before allowing further use.But there's no profit in that.I really don't understand why anyone buys expensive, unrepairable apple stuff when there are so many perfectly good, cheaper options out there. Idiots.

author: MarkDennehy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 11:16:02 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 06, 2016, 11:53:05 pmNot the first time either - remember the Italian case against Apple over the extended warranty?Or the whole Safe Harbour thing (well, I say "remember" but it's not over yet...)Quote from: dannyf on February 07, 2016, 12:00:13 amN900 and N9 forever!Best smartphones ever made.And until they make a decent physical keyboard on a top-level smartphone again, that record's not going anywhere. Typing on a flat pane of glass is grand in hollywood, but the mechanical keyboard market exists for a damn good reason!As to the whole idea of buying an Apple walled garden, no thank you very much. Overpriced underfeatured user-limiting twaddle that earns money through marketing and locking other manufacturers out of features through some fairly abusive legal crud (magnetically attached power cables anyone?)

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 12:41:15 pm
content: It's always entertaining the read the fierce hatred against Apple.Please continue.

author: MarkDennehy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 01:16:18 pm
content: Since when has "that's rubbish, this is far better and cheaper" classed as "fierce hatred"?I save my "fierce hatred" for Michael Bay movies I paid money to see giant robots bash each other in the head, I did not pay money to get 30 seconds of blurry shakeycam footage of something that looks vaguely metal-ish interspersed in three hours of an annoying american teenager stammering, thankyouverymuch! I said GOOD DAY SIR!

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 01:33:37 pm
content: Perhaps Dave should run an anual "Bricked device" award, 2015 would go to FTDI naturally.Apple look like favourates for 2016, but it's still early and someone could release firmware that bricks all their devices.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 02:28:58 pm
content: Brick em if tampering is detected !That's what i want.Why ?If i lose my phone , and someone can easily hack i by swapping the fingerprint sensor, they have access to my email accounts, payment and tons of other things.A phone is no longer simply a phone. It has access to email. Passwords (keychain) and payment . You can pay by simply holding an iphone against a visa terminal...The finerprint sensor stores the fingerprint. Just like in an atm machine the keypad already encrypts data.Swapping the sensor is an attack vector.So from that perspective : thank you apple to have mechanisms in place to nuke the device if anyone messes with that.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 02:31:21 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 07, 2016, 11:40:19 amDid I say they cared about me? Apple bashers like to spread Fud I am just setting the record straight. Dispute the facts I am presenting, don't invent what I said.I don't care about Apple. I am just tired of constantly reading inaccurate statements. This is a technical forum we should have higher standards than that.There is plenty they do to piss me off. But enforcing touch ID authenticity isn't one of them. I like the fact that they do. It does improve security for some real security scenarios.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 02:36:00 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 07, 2016, 11:09:44 amThey might have changed the firmware so that it enforces Touch button ID. I give them the benefit of the doubt. It was something they didn't enforce and now they do.Why do you buy Agilent scopes? Why not use Rigol? perfectly good and hackable. The reason is software, some prefer iOS and OS X to anything else.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 02:43:34 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 07, 2016, 02:28:58 pmWhat they do is useless from this perspective. If it was about security, they would lock the phone right away. But they brick your phone only when the firmware update happens, and you no longer have access to the original button. Until then Touch id just doesn't work.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 02:46:18 pm
content: Quote from: station240 on February 07, 2016, 01:33:37 pmThey have done it in 2015.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 03:04:42 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 07, 2016, 02:28:58 pmI go with free electron on this. We have company iPhone 6 phones. My company had us install software that allows them to not only track the phone but brick it. All my email is on that phone since we use Exchange and there is IP and company documents that no one should have access to, which is why my Dell laptop and Lenovo tablet hard drives are encrypted.I am not an Apple fanboi in the least. My personal phone is a Samsung. For those who run their life on their iPhone, maybe it does make sense that non-authorized repairs will lock the phone. Where Apple has stepped on their own dick with track shoes is not having a mechanism in place to re-validate the owner and unlock the phone to make it fully usable again.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 03:54:30 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on February 07, 2016, 03:04:42 pmSo how does this bricking protect the data if the phone can be used for unlimited time period with non original home button unless the firmware gets updated?

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 03:55:39 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 07, 2016, 02:28:58 pmIs it not the case that once the touch sensor is replaced the finger print unlock feature no longer works?So replacing the sensor on a stolen phone wouldn't get you in anyway, so this bricking does not add anything to security?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 04:16:28 pm
content: QuoteIf you cannot trust a manufacturer or OS to protect your hyper sensitive data, why would you trust encryption software written by someone else, sold by someone else, downloaded over someone's internet, installed on someone's OS, stored on someone's harddrive, executed in someone's RAM, displayed on someone's monitor, in a house built by someone else, and utilizing an algorithm invented by someone else, ....?The point is that as a modern man, you have to make a choice as to where you will build on other giants' shoulders. Or you end up living like a caveman.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 04:24:49 pm
content: I agree that the security thing is a back peddling excuse, otherwise it wouldn't just happen after an update and wouldn't brick the phone, just lock you out of it until you can reverify via iTunes with your alternative security info, at worse allowing a clean install with the user data wiped. If bricking is a security feature it should be an option initiated by the owner as and when they see fit, not maybe months to years later when Apple decide they can be arsed and the damage to your personal security has already been done.But I have zero problem with Apple not wanting to allow modified devices to use an update. But that's as far as it should go, "We've detected an unauthorised modification, updates are not available."

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 04:40:31 pm
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on February 07, 2016, 10:29:32 amMy son kept coming home from school wanting an ipad after the teacher would show him some Apple exclusive app. I kept having to go to Apple's web site and show him the $499 price tag and ask him if he would prefer one ipad for the whole family to share or for each of the 4 of us to have our own tablets, We have two $99 Kindle and two $150 Dell tablets for the same price as one ipad.I still don't understand why people but Apple. They are no easier to use than anything else, cost more and have constant problems like the one in this thread. If its not Apple intentionally bricking them its power supplies catching fire or antenna problems or fragile screens, etc.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 04:57:39 pm
content: QuoteDifferent people have different preference. I buy Apple to give them away; I think they have good looks (better ones before the current crop); they offer good battery life; they are pretty fool proof - they just work and you don't need to do much else.Android phones generally require a lot more tweaking to get it to work right - to some people, that's not a thing for them: computers / phones are appliances to them and they just want them to work out of the box. Apple does an excellent job there. Money is typically not an issue.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 05:09:10 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 07, 2016, 03:41:09 pmNo I don't have to like Apple to not be an irrational Apple hater. I realize they are a company, and they do things companies do. By the way I have far more hatred for Microsoft who are convicted monopolist offender on multiple continents, or Intel who have used tactics like code injection in their compilers to cripple AMD's benchmark scores, and also paid distributors not to carry AMD products. This move by Apple seems like a legitimate security measure. If I made smartphones with the same feature I would be inclined to do the same thing. As free_electron explained, a customer might appreciate it.You specifically addressed me with: "Apple doesn't care about you." Why is that relevant? I never said they did. Right of the bat you're turning the conversation into a philosophical religious argument. We can't verify if Apple cares about anyone and that sort of discussion has no place on a technical forum imo. Leave it for the youtube comments.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 05:31:34 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 05:09:10 pmAppreciate for what? That is does not do anything other than bricking the phone?

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 05:40:00 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 05:31:34 pmIt bricks the phone if the unlock touch ID is tempered with, I let you figure out the rest.. you can do it, I am confident in you.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 05:43:59 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 07, 2016, 05:41:02 pmNo I call anyone who doesn't see how verifying the authenticity of the biometric auth factor might be a good idea. Because it's an obvious security measure. And I don't think these posters are dumb, which leaves only one explanation... Irrational Apple haters.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 05:47:08 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 07, 2016, 05:46:25 pmI don't think so.

author: Papal_Stick
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 05:50:29 pm
content: Avoid using american technology, refuse to work on US made equipment. Use Russian or Chinese devices when possible, they are often superior in quality, serviceability and do not contain NSA wiretaps.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 05:53:42 pm
content: Quote from: Papal_Stick on February 07, 2016, 05:50:29 pmBecause government spying is exclusive to US? At the very least there is freedom of the press here, which occasionally shines the light on these issues. With above mentioned countries you don't even have that.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 05:54:51 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 05:40:00 pmNo it doesn't. It will brick the phone after the owner could have used it even a few years, you just need toupdate/reflashthe firmware. It's not like it won't boot at all with the replaced button to protect your data, it will work perfectly even with the latest firmware version. It will die only during the update. So no, it won't prevent any unauthorized tampering with your phone. But it will brick it when you press OK button when it asks to update.

author: Papal_Stick
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 05:55:32 pm
content: NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.An optional additional explanation is:

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 06:00:04 pm
content: Quote from: Papal_Stick on February 07, 2016, 05:55:32 pmOh you're one of those.. have a nice day.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 06:03:17 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 05:58:53 pmYes wedo(except you) know this for sure. And you can take the latest firmware and it will work with non original button. Update process is what kills the phone.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 06:11:04 pm
content: You know, it could also be a side effect and not the intention of apple at all. It's easy to think it all one big conspiracy. But let's look at if from the engineer points of view.(not the angry customer, or as it seems like here: angry non-customers)*it's what I think happens*- Button is broken.- Button is replaced with third-party.- Fingerprint sensor not functional due to disconnected session. Meh... (notice that it is the button itself that stores the prints)- iOS x.x update.- During the upgrade, the modem firmware and the button firmware are updated.- The updating of the button fails, since it's a third-party button.- Upgrade fails, error 53 (tampered security features?).- Since the security of the device can no longer be guaranteed, it won't work anymore. (read *)- Go get warranty, since the iPhone has a failed button. Whichshouldbe a warranty case if you did not replace it.Since the warranty agreement literally states that it is not covered if:QuoteWhich is annoying, but Apple is not unique with that. Every company does that. [insert South Park: HumancentiPad]*What would be worse? (from apple's point of view)- a small percentage of users has a bricked phone after they repaired it.- a small percentage of users was scammed by unsecure fingerprint sensors.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 06:12:08 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 06:03:17 pmI have followed this story for awhile, I am a Rossman subscriber and he broke it while back. There are so many conflicting reports on how it actually triggers and yes there are ways to circumvent it, just like with any security there are workarounds. But Apple has acknowledged the issue and explained why it was there:http://9to5mac.com/2016/02/05/error-53-iphone-6/They should definitely fix it so it can't be circumvented. So that it bricks the phone in all scenarios, when touchID is tempered with.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 06:28:32 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 06:12:08 pm1. There is no workaround except to put the original button back and flash the firmware again. 2. It bricks only during the firmware update. 3 Apple are assholes and their reply about security is a complete horseshit. Hope they get 1 billion fine (like microsoft) from the EU.Quote from: Jeroen3 on February 07, 2016, 06:11:04 pmDo you really believe it could be the case?

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 06:31:48 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 06:28:32 pmAgain, I don't see anything wrong with checking authenticity of the touchID button. The fashion in which the code:53 manifests itself is irrelevant. It's something they should be doing, period.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 06:34:01 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 06:28:32 pmYes. If it was their intention to brick the device. It would brick the first moment it detected a new button. But it doesn't. And they would also do this with screens, which they don't.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 06:45:59 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 06:31:48 pmShould or should not is questionable. How they do it is on border with criminal.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 06:46:30 pm
content: Ok so I found some clarification on the issue. Part of the reason why this Apple hate is so damaging to the tech discourse is that the echo chamber is full of false information. I have finally found the actual explanation.In the past since iPhone 5s. If you replaced the TouchID button you would not have any issues, except, this is the important part, you could no longer use TouchID. This means that that was no longer a viable way of authentication. Security goal, accomplished.In fact this was always the case, when you changed your TouchID you would no longer be able to use your fingerprint to unlock and authorize payments. What triggered the storm is that now Apple doesn't allow firmware updates if the Touch ID isn't present on the phone. That's all there is to it. Nothing malicious about it. They just tightened the security. It serves a security purpose as designed.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 06:53:03 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 06:46:30 pmYou only now figured it out?QuoteYes it is malicious because they ALLOW you to update... and brick your phone beyond repair. If they would just say we won't update it, that would be fine. But instead they destroy the equipment they do not own.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 06:57:40 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 06:46:30 pmNot allowing updates is hardly the same as bricking it.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 07:04:47 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 06:53:03 pmQuote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 06:53:03 pmYour words^^, you either didn't know about it, or you were purposely spreading FUD.Replacing the button disables TouchID, so no you cannot tamper with the biometrics unlock, so there is a real purpose to verifying the TouchID ID.Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 06:53:03 pmIt prevents at least two attack vectors I can think of. Someone finding your iTunes backup, and using it to restore it on a different iPhone and get into your data.Someone stealing your phone and trying to flash their iOS on there.Bricking is the only thing I want them to do, in either case.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 07:09:42 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 07:04:47 pmYes i know it disables touch ID. They do disable it even without firmware update and bricking the phone. So why do they need to brick the phone later, may I ask?

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 07:11:05 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 07:09:42 pmThat's not what you said in one of your previous posts as quoted above.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 07:14:14 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 07:11:05 pmPlease point me where I said that touch ID is still functional after replacing the button?

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 07:15:06 pm
content: A couple of really lame things Apple did:1. Making the touch sensor part of the security module. Match the fingerprints in the main CPU -> problem solved.2. Not giving the Apple stores the key reset software. If people could just go in and get their phones fixed, it wouldn't be a big deal.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 07:16:24 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 02:43:34 pm

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 07:25:50 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 07:16:24 pmOk I admit I missed that, but now I am confused. How does that not do anything to prevent tampering with the biometrics? Disabling biometrics on a wrong ID does exactly that.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 07:29:08 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 07:25:50 pmThat was about that bricking your phone after using it for many months or even years does not give you any (additional, if you want it in this way) security.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 07:30:01 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 07:29:08 pmBut it does, I've listed at least two potential attack vectors it helps to prevent.

author: gnavigator1007
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 08:02:40 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on February 07, 2016, 06:34:01 pmI'll provide links when I have time, but I would like to point out that some people that have replaced their screens have also received error 53. I've also come across a few reports of people having their phones bricked by Apple without having had any repairs done. If these reports are true, then even giving Apple the benefit of the doubt on their BS security claims, they are at least guilty of some very poor implementation of half-baked ideas

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 08:11:52 pm
content: Quote from: gnavigator1007 on February 07, 2016, 08:02:40 pmSome replacement screens come with the button as well. You're supposed to use your original TouchID button. As mentioned in that video by iPad Rehab some people end up with a new button when replacing the screen which causes them this issue.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 08:19:54 pm
content: Yeah, because some repair shops don't bother transferring the OEM parts to the replacement screen.If you are going to repair it, at least try to get it as close to spec as you can thinking that eventually might end up on someone else's hands and sold as a genuine fully OEM device.But granted, if even after the upgrade, if you can replace the button with a third party one, it defeats the purpose of the added security unless this version of the OS bricks the phone when the button is replaced.I think it's more of a goof up from Apple than anything else, unless their purpose is to prevent users to get second hand phones that have been modified. That will make more sense to me that's what they are after.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 08:24:06 pm
content: Quote from: Papal_Stick on February 07, 2016, 05:55:32 pmBullshit.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 08:26:47 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 07:30:01 pmUpdate the phone with tampered firmware while using the original button, then replace the button with tampered one. So how bricking the phone adds any additional security?

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 08:39:02 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on February 06, 2016, 09:11:12 pmThe issue is you buy a home button assembly, but then it needs a procedure not available outside Apple to pair it with the phone. The button isn't repairable without replacing the whole module.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 08:39:14 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 08:26:47 pmIf you have the original button then you have the phone. Of the top of my head I came up with the attack vectors. But there is more, for instance consider this:Your backup has your fingerprint biometric. Isn't your fingerprint worth protecting?Consider this. Your iCloud gets hacked. Some hacker you've never met, downloads your iPhone backup. Without enforcing the ID, they could brute force reverse your fingerprint, using a different iPhone (with a non matching button ID). This prevents that attack vector as well.No matter how you look at it, authenticating biometric auth factor devices is a good idea. There are just too many reasons why it makes good sense. I may not be able to consider all the situations, but who cares? We've already established that it provides additional security. The more they are enforced the better, including firmware restores. Apple has no obligation to make their devices easy to repair by non authorized shops. They only have a responsibility to their users to protect their fingerprint, and their personal information.Reparability is a secondary concern to security as it should be.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 08:41:36 pm
content: QuoteMaybe we should hold your judgment until ***when*** those reports are true.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 08:46:09 pm
content: Quote from: SteveyG on February 07, 2016, 08:39:02 pmI meant for a screen replacement, the repair shop has three options.1) get just the screen/digitizer without the extra parts and transfer those parts.2) get a complete assembly so you don't have to transfer those parts, but transfer the OEM button at least to keep Touch ID functionality intact.3) get a complete assembly and replace it as is, with the Touch ID gone.The 3rd option is what is bricking those phones.I'm not talking about replacing broken buttons, just broken screens which I would think is a more prevalent issue.Edit: If it was just the button that stopped working I would think Apple would cover that repair since it's not the user's fault, unless it had water damage. The button failing would be a manufacturing problem and would be covered right?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 08:55:51 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 08:39:14 pmNo, it does not.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 08:57:30 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 08:55:51 pmhttp://www.geek.com/apple/apple-wants-to-store-touch-id-fingerprints-in-the-icloud-1613633/

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 09:01:32 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 08:57:30 pmhttps://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204587Quote

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 09:07:05 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 09:01:32 pmThey've at least filed a patent for it, so they must have considered it at the very least. Or maybe they're planning on doing it in the future and are laying the groundwork to secure that path for future legacy devices.http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.html&r=2&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&S1=%28382%2F125.CCLS.+AND+20150115.PD.%29&OS=ccl/382/125+and+pd/1/15/2015&RS=%28CCL/382/125+AND+PD/20150115%29These policies aren't written in stone.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 09:10:04 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 09:07:05 pmBut they are bricking the phones NOW.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 09:12:24 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 09:10:04 pmYes exactly. So that if they do, there will be no backwards vulnerability for late adopters. That's what I meant by.future legacy devices

author: gnavigator1007
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 09:18:23 pm
content: A piece written by someone that bought the phone new and never had a repair done getting error 53http://www.dailydot.com/technology/what-is-error-53-iphone/

author: gnavigator1007
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 09:27:14 pm
content: The timing of the error 53 story blowing up is quite interesting coming on the heels of Apple's changes to their trade-in policy.http://www.cnet.com/news/apple-now-accepts-damaged-iphones-for-trade-in/This is how conspiracy theories gain traction

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 09:34:25 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 09:12:24 pmIf it is made for being future proof, then in the same way as one would chop his balls off instead of using condoms.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 09:34:49 pm
content: Quote from: gnavigator1007 on February 07, 2016, 09:18:23 pmSeems to me like a broken wire on his Touch ID from the get go. Maybe just reseating the Touch ID connector would have fixed it. But it seems that's not the norm for the Error 53.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 09:46:59 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 09:34:25 pmI disagree. Even ignoring the security benefit. It's better to pull this bandage now. Yeah sure some folks will get caught of guard, but better now than later when replaced buttons are more widespread of a problem.The only reason this is news is because it's Apple. And let's face it the biggest complaint is that it doesn't brick the phone right there and then, as soon as the button is replaced. As if Apple should consider people replacing their buttons when designing devices and services, not the myriad of other concerns. Such nitpicking, really.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 10:02:39 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 09:46:59 pmNo, because they are big and because they are dicks. Cannot remember any smartphone manufacturer who would do something so silly.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 10:06:56 pm
content: Easy,Sales on mobile phones are down and we are about to launch our iPhone 7, what to do?Let's brick all those non-oem repaired phones out there, that will bring some extra sales!Edit: After all, they already invested in x amount of Apps and other iTune content, what are they going to do, switch phones? I don't think so, so let's proceed according to plan.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 10:07:17 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 10:02:39 pmThat's a subjective opinion. Nothing here points to it being a dick move. Apple has no obligation nor should it care about making it "easy" for anyone to replace biometric auth peripherals.We simply can't compare the competition because no one cares about competition. The competition can't even be arsed to provide OS updates for the phones released only a few years ago. So you would be unlikely to run into this problem even if it were present.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 10:30:01 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 07, 2016, 10:13:17 pmHere are some easy steps on avoiding being bitten by it:- If you're clumsy, get a protective case, so that you can't break your screen easily. OtterBox is $39 and the phone becomes a tank.- If you think you will still break your screen, it might be wise to invest in AppleCare for $79 dollars (cheaper than even the knock off screen replacement) you can break the screen twice and it will be replaced no questions asked. It's a no brainer.- If you still break the screen and don't have the AppleCare, then get it done by these 3rd party places, but ask them to not change your touchID button. You can verify this easily because the touchID won't work after being replaced.- If your button dies within a year Apple will replace it for free, if not it's $200 (they replace your entire phone). If you had the phone for 2 years, might as well just upgrade at that point.The issue is seriously blown out of proportion, and it pales in comparison to those other examples of dick moves.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 11:21:36 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 10:30:01 pmSo if touch ID no longer works after 3rd party button replacement, where is the vulnerability that this bricking claims to address?

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 11:25:25 pm
content: Quote from: Delta on February 07, 2016, 11:21:36 pmWe literally just covered that. I am not repeating my self, going to watch super bowl.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 11:29:36 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 11:25:25 pmI've read the entire thread and have missed that. I will re-read it though. As a non-Apple person I must be missing something.Enjoy your pretend rugby....!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 11:33:30 pm
content: Quote from: Delta on February 07, 2016, 11:21:36 pmThere is none, except those in Muxr's imagination.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 11:43:54 pm
content: Quote from: Delta on February 07, 2016, 11:21:36 pmWe don't know one thing. Did the new update enable a more heavy security?Meaning, after the upgrade with the full intact phone, can you change the button with a third party one without bricking the phone?If that is the case, then yeah, they can claim that they are enabling a security feature so if your phone is stolen, the thief can't just change the button, sell it and be done with it and let the buyer deal with the next upgrade.If that is not the case, well the thief can sell the phone without restoring it and let the buyer deal with the restoring to stock, but that would happen sooner than later, where before it could have been cleared and sold.So yeah they did something positive for some people, not for others.It would be interesting to know how many were due to the screen replacement and the repairer not transferring the original button with the Touch ID on it.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 11:45:22 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on February 07, 2016, 11:43:54 pmYes you can, until the next update...Update process bricks it, not FW version.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 12:06:27 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 03:54:30 pmAll the IT department said that if we report the phone lost or stolen, if the phone is on, they have a way to wipe the phone remotely. I'm assuming that the process bricks the phone, I could be wrong. I wasn't the idiot that lost his phone 2 weeks ago and, I guess, tested the process.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 12:07:37 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 11:45:22 pmI don't think I've seen that, I've seen the update to the new OS bricking it, but not the replacing the button after the new OS was installed.In any event it makes stolen phones useless since the new owner would need to restore the phone to the original condition therefore bricking it.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 12:21:57 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on February 08, 2016, 12:07:37 amDid I say any different?QuoteHow the aftermarket button and stolen phone are related? If you stole the phone, you have no reason to replace the button.The chances of the original owner and the thief for bricking the phone with aftermarket button are exactly the same - almost 100%. If you do not now about the issue (and 99% of the people don't know about it), and you have aftermarket button, I bet you will confirm the firmware upgrade sooner or later.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 12:51:58 am
content: If the phone is fingerprint locked wouldn't removing the touch ID allow you to restore it to factory reset?Or does it allow you to do a factory reset if it's touch ID enabled as well and you don't have the finger of the owner?I don't know much about iPhones, never had one.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 01:43:06 am
content: This discussion sounds like a bunch of drinks discussion the good, bad and the ugly of having a beautiful wife.By all account, you don't have an iPhone, you don't care about iphones and apple does care about you either. Whats the point of discussing something that apple does that have no impact and will have no impact on you?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 01:50:08 am
content: I'm not taking the for or against Apple position, just was curious if replacing the phone button after the new upgrade also bricks the device, that would make sense if it was a new security feature implemented.Also I do see value in knowing the details if I ever want a new phone, I'm old school and still have my blackberry, I'm don't really like Android's camp that much other than for other devices that are not phones.Plus I'm curious to know those answers. Same thing as my question on why repair shops didn't transfer good functional buttons with the original Touch ID.Why? because I do like to know.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 02:09:39 am
content: "Reply #78 by Muxr on 08 Feb, 2016 05:46Ok so I found some clarification on the issue"I skipped the video quickly but did she fixed the guys phone where the original touchid is permanently lost? Or the phone she booted up towards the end was that lady's phone?If former, then there is a way to bypass touchid in 6 and 6s.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 02:25:21 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 08, 2016, 02:09:39 amShe proceeded to get the phone up to spec so it will pass a visual inspection of the phone looking original and would recommend her client to just turn it in for a new phone.She said also that morally she has no problem with that but to be aware that doing so is not really legit because you are going to claim to Apple that your phone was never modified.Of course she did put a touch Id button.So no bypass.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 02:47:53 am
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 08, 2016, 12:38:06 am1.) The property isn't permanently destroyed. It's a security measure (as Apple have acknowledged and confirmed). Prevents your backup for making it onto someone elses phone for one. Apple filed a patent to store fingerprint data in the iCloud, so it might be in preparation for that as well. So that your fingerprint can't be recovered if the TouchID is tempered with. I am no security expert [although I do work with folks who are, and my code gets security audits] but those are just some of the reasons why they might be doing it.2.) Pay Apple? I am afraid you've already made that decision when you bought their product. AppleCare is relatively inexpensive and it absolutely makes sense. As far as extended warranties go, it's one of the better ones in the industry. And with how likely you are to drop and break your screen it's probably a no brainer. If you don't like paying Apple because of some fake outrage principle, you're probably not their customer so why does it matter to you? There is plenty of other choice out there.3.) Apple is not bricking MacBooks, we're talking about a smartphone with ApplePay accessible at the tip of your finger. If MS Lumia phones bricked because the biometric unlock was tempered with it wouldn't even make the news. It would be a lonely post on a support forum somewhere.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 03:15:10 am
content: Quote from: Delta on February 07, 2016, 11:29:36 pmThanks! I don't care for NFL, I prefer soccer, but Super Bowl is a big social event here, it's about hanging with the friends and family.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 05:04:27 am
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 07, 2016, 03:37:30 pmWhy do you need to recover the data on the phone ? it is backed up to your account. simply buy a new phone, enter your credentials and you have access to your data. If you can't do that on the bricked one ... it is not your account. so from that perspective they are right.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 05:09:58 am
content: i think i see the problem ... too many people buy these overpriced toys . people that don't really need , nor can afford such a machine for their life. Then they have joe sleazeball mess with them cause the official path is too pricey.Smartphones were invented for semi- professional or business usage. meaning business people. business people that care about their stuff.

author: Alexei.Polkhanov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 06:15:06 am
content: So is there a reliable hack for it? I am sure there must be a way to pair it up with new button. Hard to believe nobody figured it out yet.I remember I purchased a phone from Canadian company called "Fido" for full price, no plan, and when I tried to insert another SIM it did not work. I called them and asked for a pin and they told me that they do not allow unlocks even if I paid full price. I immediately canceled my phone service with them, but then I was pissed and I had new, useless Motorolla phoneSo, I went to GSMForum or some other site, found exact instructions telling me which pins to pull up which ones to pull down when powering up - an voila. Unlocked. I suspect there is a similar, reproducible hack available for iPhone. Dumb button probably communicates using I2C or SPI.We, as consumers completely at fault for how phone manufacturers and phone companies treat us. We don't ask right questions we don't demand full access toequipment we own. If we never buy phones and laptops we cannot fix, modify and do whatever we want with them, these companies would have no choice but to submit to our demands or go out of business.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 07:11:08 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 08, 2016, 05:09:58 amI think I get what you're saying but that is a very limited point of view.Probably at least a billion people on earth are using smartphones now, and not all of them need this so called security feature.Maybe they just want a phone, camera and the internet access.Hopefully the consumer's that don't want these draconian measures will ditch companies that play these games.They really should let you decide what level of data security you want, rather than brick your phone and tell you to buy a new one.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 08:11:31 am
content: So as far as I can tell, the bricking is to prevent an attack vector that only exists in Muxr's head (because in reality your fingerprint data is not backed up in the iCloud or anywhere else).....The justification (and even plaudits!) for this bricking has moved from "it prevents a thief getting access to all your personal data", which was proven to be false, to "it means a stolen iPhone is useless". I'm sure eventually we'll end up with "good on Apple, it will put 3rd party repair places out of business, thus resulting in better service for Apple customers".....

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 08:17:28 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on February 08, 2016, 12:51:58 amThe fingerprint sensor is not functional until you have unlocked the phone with the pincode. And it's not enabled for purchases until you have entered your account password once.This is per reboot.

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 11:31:59 am
content: Oh so when your phone is a part of a payment system, that uses biometrics (presumably) to authenticate a transaction, you're surprised that it has tamper resistance built in? Surprise!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 01:07:43 pm
content: Tamper resistance = brick your phone. Sorry - that doesn't work for me.I don't have a problem with the philosophy, just the execution.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 05:14:50 pm
content: Quote from: Delta on February 08, 2016, 08:11:31 amIf the patent office is in my head then I guess it is in my head.But that's besides the point. On what planet does it not make sense to authenticate the biometric peripheral? The implementation is just that, the implementation, but the principle is still sound. And entirely justified. It's Apple's product and they get to design it and implement it however they like.It was not designed for hardware replacements in mind, nor was it designed for users to replace components on the phone, no smartphone is. The TouchID has one purpose, and it's only natural it would be a pain for a 3rd party to temper with. As a user I am glad it is.If this was the screen or the battery we're talking about then I might have a different opinion about it.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 06:36:43 pm
content: Quote from: Papal_Stick on February 07, 2016, 05:55:32 pmWow.Pot calling the kettle black:You'vebeen the victim of deceptive propaganda.It's widely documented that in ex-Soviet states (especially Russia), anti-gay activists (with support of the government) spread propaganda making all kinds of untrue, outrageous claims about LGBT people, and equating homosexuality with pedophilia (for those who don't know, this is done in Russia to an extent that defies belief to those of us in civilized countries). It's unambiguously established that pedophilia (sexual abuse of children) is not a homosexual phenomenon, that in fact it is committed almost exclusively by men who identify as straight.Soviet anti-gay propaganda is what has led to gay men in Russia being baited,torturedandmurderedby groups of homophobic thugs, with law enforcement turning a blind eye to those heinous crimes. So just remember that if you support or believe that propaganda,you've got blood on your hands.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 06:40:01 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 08, 2016, 05:14:50 pmNow go and check how many patents Apple have and how many of them are actually implemented in some kind of device. They register tons of useless (from engineering point of view) patents just in case, so they can use them against competitors if something like it will be actually implemented someday.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 06:43:05 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 07, 2016, 06:28:32 pm"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." --Robert J. Hanlonin some form or anotherIt's far more likely to have been an unintended side effect than deliberate sabotage. They aren't stupid enough to try that, because if someone did sue, the paper trail would come out in discovery, which would be devastating.Quote from: edavid on February 07, 2016, 07:15:06 pmNo, those are not lame, they're incredibly smart. No offense, but you clearly knownothingabout security design.Those things are critical to the security of Touch ID, which in turn is critical to the enhanced security of Apple Pay (which far exceeds that of a physical card,providing the issuing bank actually performs its due diligence when linking to an account). If you do fingerprint sensing in the main CPU, it can be hacked. Thiscompletelyeliminates that attack vector.As for not sharing the keys with Apple: If Apple has them, then Apple can be compelled by law enforcement to produce them. By never having the keys, Apple eliminates their ability to rat me out to the government. (Apple'sstance on privacy/encryption is clear, and viewed with those principles in mind, these design decisions make total sense.) Strictly speaking, you said "key reset software" -- but that implies that a back door exists by which the keys could be changed. That's horrible design security. The best systems destroy the keymaking device, such that it becomes impossible to recover or reset keys.Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 08:57:30 pmPatent != intent.Quote from: Muxr on February 07, 2016, 09:46:59 pmSpot on.Quote from: Brumby on February 08, 2016, 01:07:43 pmDevil's advocate: What if someone managed to transplant a Touch ID sensor (complete with its Secure Enclave) to another phone and succeeded in using it to log into an account that wasn't theirs? We both know damned well that Apple would be crucified by the media.Quote from: Muxr on February 08, 2016, 05:14:50 pmThis. It's an unfortunate side effect of encryption that it hampers interoperability. But there's simply no way around it. As our devices store more and more highly personal, confidential information on them, the need for extreme security continues to grow. And this security relies on the fact that the mechanisms cannot be circumvented, disabled, or reset. Otherwise, you may as well not have them at all.Quote from: wraper on February 08, 2016, 06:40:01 pmAbsolutely true, as I said above. That said, if you follow how much time hackers spend reverse-engineering all the security in iOS devices already, you'll know that Applemustgo to extreme measures if it is to maintain the level of security that consumers demand of a device that holds their entire digital life.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 07:01:26 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 08, 2016, 06:43:05 pmI don't know about the Apple Pay requirements, but why should people who never use it be inconvenienced by it?QuoteThis makes no sense to me. Apple service centers must have a simple way to reset the keys when they install a new button. They could just provide that to the Apple Stores.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 07:06:50 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 08, 2016, 06:40:01 pmArguing with people about Apple is like arguing with children, seriously.I have never claimed I know exactly why they are doing it. Do I work for Apple? Do you? How the fuck am I supposed to know why, I didn't work on it?I only know that it makes sense, why they'd want to do it. Authenticating a biometric peripheral is a good security practice.The patent establishes that they thought about storing fingerprint metrics in the backups at the very least (which if you go back is exactly what I said), so it's a good example of why theymightbe doing it.Your theory is that is malice towards 3rd party repair services. Which proof or source do you have?I have demonstrated a potential intent which points in a different direction, what have you demonstrated?

author: Alexei.Polkhanov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 07:13:46 pm
content: You guys are absolutely wrong about security and you don't understand how it works. To be secure system has to be OPEN, PROVEN and VERIFIABLE or in other words black box security does not work. So in order for me to call any computer system secure I need to be able to1. Have full and complete access to source code of security system in question. Hardware should be open too. As soon as I know all details of all parts of the system only then I can be sure it is secure. Since Apple does not provide code and hardware/IC designs - it is absolutely insecure. I hope it will be hacked to their embarrassment and they would deserve it.2. Have it tested by many attack vectors. In other words if I DO WANT hackers and other people attacking it day and night. This is the only way to ensure it is reliable.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 07:18:21 pm
content: Quote from: Alexei.Polkhanov on February 08, 2016, 07:13:46 pmYes peer review is good for security. But how is that relevant to the topic? Apple isn't going to open source iTunes, iCloud and iOS. Google's Android OS is but Google isn't going to open source their services either. Open hardware is an even bigger pipe dream. But that's an entirely different topic.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 07:36:47 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 08, 2016, 07:06:50 pmToo many times you demonstrated a complete lack of understanding how Touch id works and how the bricking happens.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 07:39:32 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 08, 2016, 07:36:47 pmSo your response to my call for you to provide some supporting evidence for your claims is an ad hominem? It figures. Have a nice day.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 07:40:39 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on February 08, 2016, 07:01:26 pmI don't see any keys being reset, just some method of triggering a handshaking.Does Apple actually do button replacements? For many repairs, Apple only does a device swap, followed by complete refurbishment somewhere else, which always includes a new housing (including screen) and serial number.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 08:07:17 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 08, 2016, 07:40:39 pmOK, then they should provide the handshake triggering tool to the stores.QuoteYes.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 08:21:30 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on February 08, 2016, 08:07:17 pmApple has provided similar tools (e.g. Mac motherboard serial number programmers, thermal calibration software, etc.) to Apple Authorized Service Providers (AASPs) in the past. In fact, they may already have such a tool available now, we just don't know. I think the issue may be that the repairs triggering this error are repairs performed byunauthorized service providers (like our loudmouthed New Yorker), who do not have access to the official tools and resources Apple makes available to authorized service providers.Does anyone know whether AASPs can do home button replacement on iPhone 6/6s? The answer to this question would conclusively establish whether such a tool exists. It'd also be interesting to know what the official AASP button replacement procedure is.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 09:53:18 pm
content: Sounds more like those independent repair shops trying to keep their business going.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 12:28:48 am
content: Muxr: if the home button is replaced by a 3rd party, does touchID then fail to work?

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 12:57:16 am
content: Quote from: Delta on February 09, 2016, 12:28:48 amIt does. The fingerprint unlock functionality no longer works. My guess is the aftermarket button is just a previous non TouchID button or just a fake made to look like the original.

author: gnavigator1007
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 06:23:17 am
content: This thing is becoming quite the soap opera. The lawyers have begun sniffing for blood. Kind of surprised its taken this longhttp://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/08/apple-under-pressure-lawyers-error-53-codeshttp://www.pcvalaw.com/apple-iphone-error-53-lawsuit/

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 06:29:03 am
content: It's a bit like: "If I replace the alarm of my car, the wireless fob stops working"-obvious. As a result the unregistered fix-kid on the corner of the street is the most angry, since people now need to go the dealer to fix the alarm.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 07:06:28 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on February 09, 2016, 06:29:03 amNot many things are more useless than a bad analogy.A case in point.QuoteFrom this articlehttp://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/feb/05/error-53-apple-iphone-software-update-handset-worthless-third-party-repair

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 09:13:21 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 09, 2016, 12:57:16 amSo where on earth is this security vulnerability that warrants bricking the entire phone?

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 09:16:33 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on February 09, 2016, 06:29:03 amErm, no. Let me correct that: as a result, next time the car is at the dealer for a service, they completely and permanently disable the engine and entire car, for security reasons. Without telling you first.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 10:39:20 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on February 09, 2016, 06:29:03 amNot exactly, because the dealer just puts the car under press for "security reasons" and says nothing cane be done about it.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 11:12:13 am
content: Quote from: Delta on February 09, 2016, 09:13:21 amTampering with the Touch ID should brick the phone. Absolutely. In fact it should brick the phone as soon as it's tempered with, so Apple needs to get on that.The correct question isn't why is Apple bricking the phone on TouchID tampering. The right question is why is Apple not bricking the phone when TouchID is tampered with [in all cases].

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 11:19:33 am
content: Car analogies are bad, but if you lose or break your car's fob, it can be unbelievably expensive to get it replaced. On luxury German cars they have to be shipped directly from the factory. And they can cost $500+ to get replaced.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 11:28:55 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 09, 2016, 11:19:33 amYeah but at least they don't remotely blow the thing up.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 11:30:51 am
content: Quote from: bookaboo on February 09, 2016, 11:28:55 amAs opposed to whom? iPhone doesn't blow up on error: 53 (if you put your key  back it works again). Without a fob the car is essentially bricked.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 11:39:19 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 09, 2016, 11:30:51 amBut your car can be fix. The iPhone works fine until the software is updated, then it becomes permanently bricked.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 11:42:33 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on February 09, 2016, 11:39:19 amUntil you put your original TouchID in. It's literally the same thing.If you lose your button, which is silly since it's inside the phone, then you need a new phone. But Apple covers it for a year, they replace your phone if it breaks.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 11:48:22 am
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 09, 2016, 11:46:40 amThey brought the iphone in with missing parts, yes you need a new phone, they don't do any advanced repairs at Apple shops, that's silly (same way a car dealer can't fix your broken fob, it has to go to the factory). No iPhone's touchID is similar to a car's Key fob in price and function.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 11:55:59 am
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 09, 2016, 11:53:14 amIf you remove a critical component in a device and replace it with another entirely different component than take it to the original manufacturer, what do you expect to happen? Let me see you try the same with a TV, or a Vacuum cleaner. Doesn't even have to be a smartphone.I am an Apple user, you are not. Why are you so outraged? I am perfectly fine with this. You'd think it would be the other way around.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 11:57:08 am
content: http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/08/apple-under-pressure-lawyers-error-53-codesQuote

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 12:03:16 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 09, 2016, 11:57:08 amUntil he finds out it's actually 3rd party repair services who are destroying the phones, by being too lazy to put back the original TouchID button. That will never fly in court.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 12:03:56 pm
content: "Wow I've got to get a marketing team like apples. "You wish you could."Arguing with an apple user is like arguing with a flat earther or a overunity fanatic."Because you insist on your view and you insist on it being the only legitimate view.The other side is saying that there could be legitimate rational for apples design.Unfortunately you refuse to appreciate differing views.Being able to agree to disagree is a sign of maturity.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 12:09:37 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 09, 2016, 12:08:48 pmYoutube comment section is that way...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 12:11:13 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 09, 2016, 12:03:16 pmExcept the phones were not bricked at the moment when they replaced those buttons. And this bricking was later implemented by Apple.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 12:13:54 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 09, 2016, 12:11:13 pmThat's besides the point. A manufacturer is under no obligation to provide flawless operation of a device which has had it's original parts replaced with entirely different parts, this is not even considering any security arguments which I am sure Apple would present. Do you realize what kind of a precedent that would set? It's laughable to even consider.Should I replace my laptops SATA cables with some chicken wire and sue Apple for corrupting my data?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 12:25:12 pm
content: The issue here is whether this is adeliberate, vindictive bricking (a la FTDI), or whether it's anunintendedside effect of an unauthorized repair. And the fact is, we just don't know for certain.My hunch is that it's the latter, because the former is legally very risky. Apple's lawyers wouldn't allow the company to be exposed to that kind of legal liability. The big gray area would be if a paper trail showed that Apple was aware of it as a side effect, but that this side effect was nonetheless unintended.The fact is, the oldest iPhone 6 units have only been out of warranty for a few months (and in Europe, where 2 year warranties are the norm in most countries, they are still under warranty). It's thus likely that almost all button replacements at indie repair shops have been due to customer damage, because if it were a warranty failure, Apple would have fixed it for free. While I can understand people wanting the option of a cheaper indie repair shop, Apple is under no obligation to support such aftermarket parts. iOS expects the hardware configuration that left the factory or an authorized repair center, and I don't see any legal obligation for anything beyond that. (The EULA is explicit on this, though the enforceability thereof is of course questionable.)This issue is dropping up in cars, too: as encryption is being implemented in the various onboard computers (because of the demonstrated risk of these on board networks being compromised and allowing the car to be controlled), we are beginning to see cars have authentication errors as well when indie repair shops swap parts.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 12:35:20 pm
content: If it was intentional, which I highly doubt it is, since 3rd parties are a non factor, there is still no way to prove it. And there are myriad of reasons as I stated above why they could never be legally held to provide support for 3rd party tempered devices with non original parts.Also consider (and if you search google for it you will get tons of posts about this: "touchID doesn't work after screen replacement"), most of these issues stem from screen replacements. Apple's manufacturer warranty doesn't cover accidental screen replacements, nothing unusual there. But it does cover a non working TouchID button. So it's only natural to think that a bad TouchID button being replaced by 3rd parties is a rare case, at least compared to screen replacements.However cheap aftermarket screen assemblies come with the button. So these 3rd party shops are too lazy to use the original TouchID button. Most of it is on 3rd parties, and in fact legal action could be brought against them for taking customer's touchID buttons.If Apple were really dicks they could easily go after these shops for defrauding customers and removing good working parts from their products.

author: jwm_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 12:45:03 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 09, 2016, 11:12:13 amAbsolutely not, the touch id is an authentication method, that is like saying that PCs should be bricked if the keycaps on the keyboard are changed because it is what is used to enter passwords.You cannot tamper with the touch id without turning off the phone, and presumably (unless they have implemented it in a braindead way) all encryption keys are flushed when the phone is turned off and the case opened.Then it _does not matter_ if a hacked touch-id is put in there, if they don't know the encryption password then they can't get at your data, simple as that. Enter the encryption key once on bootup and after that use the touch id to unlock if you want to set it up.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 12:48:38 pm
content: Quote from: jwm_ on February 09, 2016, 12:45:03 pmYou lost me, a PC's keyboard is analogous to a phone's onscreen keyboard. The screen isn't verified. The keyboard doesn't scan and digitize your fingerprints. You are confusing things.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 12:52:34 pm
content: One thing I realized in this debate, is that people frequenting this topic in general barring some exceptions, have very poor logic skills.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 12:54:48 pm
content: "people frequenting this topic in general barring some exceptions, have very poor logic skills-"You don't have to point it out.But I second that assessment.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 12:58:58 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 09, 2016, 12:52:34 pmAccording to your own logic, Apple by itself should be an exception from the common sense.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 01:02:37 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 09, 2016, 12:58:58 pmNot at all, I am approaching this entirely from a perspective of someone who produces and sells my own electronics and I am contemplating what I would do if I were put in the same position as Apple. I am putting myself in my customer's shoes and Apple's shoes so that I can judge the situation as objectively as possible.So that I can inform my own decisions regarding my own products in the future.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 01:05:55 pm
content: Quote from: jwm_ on February 09, 2016, 12:45:03 pmThat's exactly the point I've been trying to make to the Apple squad, thank you!If the touchID is tampered with you CANNOT then use it to get access to the phone! Genuinely good security from Apple makes it completely unnecessary to brick the phone. Later. Without warning.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 01:09:07 pm
content: Quote from: Delta on February 09, 2016, 01:05:55 pmWhile you're tapping yourself on the back, let me interrupt you for a quick second.First of all his analogy misses the mark as I've stated, second of all, I am glad you two are not in charge of securing my fingerprint metrics.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 01:23:12 pm
content: 2 + 2 = Whatever Apple tells me is the best answer?Also - I'm missing the relevance to my comment here:Quote from: tooki on February 08, 2016, 06:43:05 pmAs I said, I have no problem with Apple taking action in such a situation - but bricking a phone completely seems excessively extreme. Surely there's something a little less draconian they could have done?

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 01:31:28 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 09, 2016, 01:15:24 pmTrue. I also tend to believe they aren't just any corporation. They tend to have the highest customer satisfaction in their markets, which I think is at least partly the reason they are as profitable as they are.They are kind of a model to emulate if you want to be successful, without trying to give them too much credit. Because as much as those who've never used an Apple product beleive it's all marketing and hype, they are missing the point of what makes Apple as successful as they are. This is not me saying it. It's pretty much an accepted truth by the experts in the field. Apple's user experience is second to none.You can definitely find anecdotal evidence to the contrary but for the vast majority of Apple users it has nothing to do with marketing.Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 09, 2016, 01:15:24 pmTrue on the tax part. The money they earn overseas they keep overseas, so that they can avoid paying corporate taxes. It's unfair but they aren't breaking any laws either.Not true on the second part. They don't have a market dominance in either market they are in. Except perhaps personal music players. But that's over now.Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 09, 2016, 01:15:24 pmThere is really no good reason to use 3rd party shops, when AppleCare is only $79. I could understand if it was more expensive but it is literally priced to be a no brainer.But if you do take an Apple product to a 3rd party shop, for whatever reason, and that shop replaces the parts with fake/non original parts, you can't expect that phone to be the same product anymore. From any company's stand point all bets are off, and that should be common sense to anyone. Apple should probably provide replacement parts to third parties however, but they aren't obligated to.Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 09, 2016, 01:15:24 pmGlad you agree.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 01:35:24 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 09, 2016, 01:31:28 pmSo the guy who has to spend $1500 on a long plane flight to GET TO an Apple store hasnogoodreason?QuoteWhat can I say...

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 01:37:25 pm
content: This, then, begs the question - just how far from an Apple store is a reasonable distance for a customer to be expected to travel?... and what happens when people with faulty iPhones are outside that?

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 01:40:05 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 09, 2016, 01:35:24 pmNot sure what you're referring to. But if you buy any product from a company not available in the country you're in you're SOL. Do you expect Apple to dispatch a helicopter with a brand new phone to him? What company does that, I would like to know.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 01:40:21 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 09, 2016, 01:23:12 pmBut we don'tknowthat bricking was ever theintent. It's clearly the result, but all we really know is that whatever test routines were added to the update process, they are now producing an unhandled hardware validation error that iTunes cannot fix.Thatis all weknow. Everything else is speculation, and most of that speculation isextremelybiased and uninformed.It's entirely possible that Apple never tested the update procedure on a phone with a non-original Touch ID sensor, because that's not a hardware configuration that would ever leave Apple's hands.Error handling in software is all about handling every possible constellation of variables, and the fact is, you never catch them all. That's when an exception is thrown and the system puts its hands in the air in defeat. I suspect that's what's happening here, that the hardware validation routine is encountering something it didn't expect and thus doesn't know how to deal with, and is throwing an unknown error (which is the exact wording of Error 53:Unknownhardware error).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 01:41:38 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 09, 2016, 01:37:25 pmThere are Apple Authorized Service Providers (AASPs). Official dealers are capable of handling repairs. Apple also offers repairs by mail ("depot repair").

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 01:42:04 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 09, 2016, 01:40:21 pmAgreed! Also a possibility.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 01:49:36 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 09, 2016, 01:45:32 pmChange a key component in your vacuum cleaner to something not designed for it, and then when it dies take it to the company that made it, let me know how they handle it. 9/10 times, will be "sir this vacuum cleaner has been tampered with, we can't fix it, would you like to buy another vacuum cleaner?"I travel all the time. And everywhere I've gone has had an Apple store.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 01:52:39 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 09, 2016, 01:51:09 pmYour vacuum cleaner was working after you replaced its motor with the motor from you washing machine. Only when it died is that they don't want to honor the warranty, because it was tampered with. (still not clicking?)

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 01:54:08 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 09, 2016, 01:09:07 pmSo before this bricking update, what methods could an attacker use to gain access to your phone?

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 01:56:42 pm
content: Quote from: Delta on February 09, 2016, 01:54:08 pmWhy is it even important? (I've covered possible scenarios few pages back, I am not repeating myself and besides it's completely irrelevant to the issue). No manufacturer is obligated to provide a working product after it had key components replaced by non-compatible parts which remove the device's functions.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 01:59:55 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 09, 2016, 01:56:42 pmIt matters because that has been used repeatedly as a defence of Apple's actions!As far as I understand, the only attack vector assumed that biometric data was also stored elsewhere, which it isn't.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 02:16:17 pm
content: Quote from: Delta on February 09, 2016, 01:59:55 pmIt could be a range of things, from security to a legitimate bug. When you remove a component and replace it with a simple button, you can't really expect the device to behave the same. Weather it's a legitimate security measure which it very well might be, it really doesn't matter. Because no manufacturer is under obligation to design products in such a way where you can replace parts and remove functionality and expect it to function flawlessly. It is just silly to think that anyone should design a product to work with just any hardware you plug in.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 02:21:46 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 09, 2016, 02:16:17 pm... and it is silly to think that anyone could actually design a part that is compatible.But what's even sillier is my continued interest in this topic. I'm outta here.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 02:23:32 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 09, 2016, 02:21:46 pmNo one is talking about a compatible part here. They are plugging in a regular button in place of a TouchID button.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 04:50:21 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 09, 2016, 02:23:32 pmWe don't know if that's the case. Lots of iPhone replacement parts are available to independent repair shops. Maybe they are plugging in a completely identical TouchID button, but they don't have the right software to pair it with the phone.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 07:16:06 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 09, 2016, 05:54:05 pmThe iPhone doesn't get bricked out of the blue moon. Someone first decided it was a good idea to remove the TouchID from the phone.1.) remove TouchID button2.) use the phone with [an important] security component missing3.) be surprised when something breaks.How is that not a fault of #1?Why don't you delete your Chrome's CA certificates and then blame Google because you can't access SSL sites. Let's see how far you get with that complaint.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 08:22:45 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 09, 2016, 08:05:17 pmWhat don't you get about pulling random components out of a device and getting unexpected results? Let me see one of your boards. And let me pull a random component out of it and see if you accounted for it.The only thing you can accuse them of is incompetence if they screwed up the security model. Malice no, because a device is not supposed to function with key components missing.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 08:36:31 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 09, 2016, 08:32:51 pmI agree it should have bricked instantly. But then again perhaps it wasn't designed to work with that button. I dunno, what do you think? Should you be able to just mix and match components on a device and expect it to perform flawlessly?

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 08:45:05 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 09, 2016, 08:22:45 pmWell not exactly. The device will no longer leak information. Or be vulnerable to attacks.Also, is it ready confirmed that error 53 is intentional? Or is this still speculation from the Anti-Apple community?Some of the jailbreaker crews must have investigated something.It is indeed not to be expected that any company should test their phone with third party parts. Nevertheless they work "most of the time". How many error 53s are there? How many units were sold?

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 08:50:09 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on February 09, 2016, 08:45:05 pmThere are a lot of error 53. And it mainly stems from screen replacements. See people drop their phone and break their screen. They don't have AppleCare ($79) coverage. So they go to these mail in 3rd party services. They use a knock off screen and button assembly and they replace the whole thing. Only problem is the new button is just a button it's no longer the original touch ID. The user then notices their TouchID no longer works. But they ignore that issue, the screen works at least (although there are a lot of people on google complaining about it after screen replacement).When they try to upgrade the firmware for whatever reason Apple expect the TouchID to be there and when it isn't it throws an error 53. Can't really blame Apple for it imo. TouchID shouldn't have been tempered with. Now the user is stuck because the warranty is void. The 3rd party made his money, Apple is stuck with an unhappy customer. They themselves can't just conjure the button the phone has to be refurbished. Both the customer and Apple are getting screwed.I can probably guess with a good amount of certainty, that Apple doesn't like anyone stripping their phones of features, especially not security features which enable things like ApplePay, and they definitely don't like unhappy Apple customers. I would be surprised if this doesn't blow back on the 3rd party repair services.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 09:12:55 pm
content: If I were Apple at this point I would just raise the price of iPhone by $30-40. That oughta cover everyone with automatic AppleCare. Future problems solved.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 10:17:22 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 09, 2016, 08:50:09 pmYou are the only one making the claim that error 53 is due to a missing Touch ID button. All of the press reports and Apple statements describe a situation where the Touch ID button is present, but somehow not properly paired with the phone.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 10:19:59 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on February 09, 2016, 10:17:22 pmWell you didn't do enough research. I posted a video in this thread of a lady who repairs iDevices full time. And she explains it quite well.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 12:51:38 am
content: This is like talking to a brick wall.Ta-ra Muxr, enjoy your iMachines, and I genuinely admire your devotion to the iCause.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 01:00:17 am
content: Quote from: Delta on February 10, 2016, 12:51:38 amI only care about the common sense. I am pretty mellow on the whole Apple thing. I don't troll Android or any other posts bashing other companies. I got a laundry list of my own issues with Apple. I just get annoyed at the double standards and FUD.I mean I get the fanboyisms at review sites and youtube comments, I stay clear of that crap, but EEVBlog is better than that. We should be able to have common sense conversations, while finding out the technical facts. I will be the first one to admit when I am wrong. Peace

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 01:08:19 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 09, 2016, 08:50:09 pmYup, exactly.Some people don't understand why other people pay a premium for Apple products. So, they attribute it to stupidity, marketing (also stupidity), or being sheep (again, stupidity). They ignore what is obvious to a lot of happy Apple customers, Apple does a lot to keep their customers happy, because happy customers pay a premium for Apple products, over and over.Do Apple products have problems sometime? Yup. Does doing something other than Apple intended sometimes seem more difficult than it should be? Yup. I still think I've come out ahead on time and frustrations. If you don't like my choices about such things, well, get a life.As for Apple just wanting people to pay for first party parts because they are greedy, maybe, but I've also had Apple replace third-party memory and storage in my laptop for free when doing a paid repair on another part of the system. Oh, and there was the time an Apple store they declined to try to help a friend's girlfriend get data off the damaged HDD in an old iMac that had been damaged in a house fire, but they sent her home with a new iMac, no charge.Oh, and the idea that this couldn't be about security because it didn't happen until over a year after the iPhone6 first shipped: ignorant and foolish. The security landscape is always evolving and changing. New threats emerge. Evolving defenses limit the ROI of people developing and deploying exploits.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 01:23:36 am
content: Let the lawyers figure it out, the class action suit probably will get settle and the customers might get free phone replacements, but I think the policy will prevail.I don't think that scanning the hardware every time you boot the phone is feasible because boot times would take forever, so apparently they only scan during updates.But does the update prevent entering Recovery and Safe Mode?Say someone steals a phone and tries to factory reset it without access to the OS because they don't have the fingerprint or the passcode. Can they take out the TouchID and do a factory reset?Can a factory reset be done without the fingerprint of the TouchID?Just asking because I don't know if the update prevents that. If it doesn't then the only security they are talking about is that access to the data is impaired if touch id is enabled and the fingerprint is not accessible.What is the cost of an iPhone to Apple? $250? well they might not mind shelling out a million dollars to settle with the civil class action suit. A different thing would be if they are found guilty on criminal charges in the EU.I guess we'll wait and see.

author: sony mavica
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 06:08:49 am
content: what about ipad2 will it effect them

author: crispy_tofu
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 09:03:25 am
content: Quote from: sony mavica on February 10, 2016, 06:08:49 amiPad 2 doesn't have Touch ID, so probably no.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 12:09:38 pm
content: QuoteThe phone wasn't bricked -> by installing a 3rd party component, the phone is no longer an iPhone and Apple is right in stopping iOS support for it.I have no problem with that position.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 01:36:08 pm
content: And now there is an attorney working up a class action lawsuit. Awesome - another attorney gets wealthy and the actual class members who might actually have a stake in the game will, as usual, get bupkis.Where do you draw the line? You should have the right to repair a device you own anywhere, any time. But this component is securing potentially your bank account and credit cards, if you use Passbook and Apple Pay. Do you REALLY want a freely available tool that just says fuck the security, it's now unlocked and can be reset because you put a new sensor and encryption chip in?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 01:41:48 pm
content: QuoteYou should and you do, as apple isn't impairing your ability there.All apple is doing is to say that if you do repair your device through an unauthorized shop, our OS wouldn't work with it.So you still have the freedom to repair your own device anyway you want. You just need to be ready to live with the consequences of that decision.Seems not an unreasonable approach.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 02:04:55 pm
content: I'm not disagreeing with you - I don't think Apple is wrong here.I guess I am a fanboy though, because I have an iPhone and ipad. No Macs, hate the OS - I'd buy a MacBook to run Windows on.But my ipad is old, and my phone is a 5S. The 6S just doesn't do enough more to warrant upgrading, and I totally skipped the 6. It's a good product. My GF has a Galaxy something or other, says she hates iPhones - but she's always complaining about the Samsung being dead, meanwhile I never have a problem getting through the day on a charge. My iPad - it works perfectly fine. I FINALLY noticed a complex enough portion in a game I play that it slightly slows down, but since it's not a part where you are actively controlling anything it has no effect on gameplay. But mostly I use it for reading. Sure, the new Air models are much lighter, but the one I have is not objectionably heavy - I did read a review of the Air where the reviewer said the old one was just too heavy to read in bed - it weighs less than a decent size book, and I'm an out of shape computer nerd and have no problem holding it to read for hours. But anyway, I guess having the product makes me a fanboi. Even if I have no desire to upgrade to each new model on release day or any of that idiotic garbage.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 04:24:32 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on February 10, 2016, 01:36:08 pmThe tool doesn't have to be freely available. It could be a setup where you have to prove to Apple that you own the phone before they reset it so Touch ID works again. It's just not OK to brick the phone, or make people pay hundreds of dollars to get it working again.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 04:36:51 pm
content: QuoteFanboy or not is not important. Being fair and being able to recognize why others may like an iSomething is.I buy a lot of iPhones (and iPods before that) but I don't own one nor use one: I find them too expensive for what they do and I need dual sim which they don't offer.However, I can see why others may like them for looks, simplicity, battery life, service, reliability, apps, and as a status symbol.I guess that makes me an apple fanboy and not an apple fanboy at the same time.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 04:41:37 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 10, 2016, 12:09:38 pmThat's assuming the parts used to carry out the repair are not genuine.If the repair was carried out using genuine parts, then it's still an iPhone and if the work is done to a decent standard, it should still work with the operating system.There's a lot of speculation and assumptions in this thread.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 04:49:12 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on February 10, 2016, 04:41:37 pmYes there is a lot of speculation.The Touch ID pairing can only be done by Apple, they don't want others to have that capability, even if that's really poor security since hiding how to do it is just going to get people to try to reverse engineer it.The thing is that only Apple can replace the button with Touch ID.The only thing the repair shops can do, is if they are fixing a broken screen, transfer the original button since it's locked to the CPU.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 04:50:59 pm
content: QuoteWait for the day when the finger scanner is integrated into the screen,

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 04:54:44 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 10, 2016, 01:41:48 pmErm no, they aren't saying that at all and that's the problem. Instead of refusing to install the update they're allowing users to install an update that Apple know bricks the phone and then making out it's for security. As I said earlier in this thread:Quote from: Mechanical Menace on February 07, 2016, 04:24:49 pm

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 05:07:31 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on February 10, 2016, 04:54:44 pmSure, but iPhone bricking is common in variety of scenarios. You can even brick the phone remotely if you suspect it's stolen. Your phone can brick itself after a number of failed password attempts was encountered.Weather bricking on the touchID tempering serves a legitimate security purpose is not even relevant, although I do see how it could be a security measure. You should not be surprised by strange behaviour or unintended bricking when removing phone's security features given all the other security measures in place.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2016, 12:54:21 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 06, 2016, 10:32:44 pmYou mean that teardown that later proved to beof a cheap counterfeit, not the genuine article?See:-Uh-Oh-Beats-Teardown-Apparently-Used-Beats-Knockoffs]http://www.core77.com/posts/38467/[-BREAKING-NEWS-]-Uh-Oh-Beats-Teardown-Apparently-Used-Beats-Knockoffs(Sorry, the URL contains square brackets, there's no way to make it format properly in BBcode.)

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2016, 03:21:45 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on February 10, 2016, 04:41:37 pmIf... the "if" has to be verified and validated by an official, trained and certified by Apple. That would cost more than the repair itself.Quote from: dannyf on February 10, 2016, 01:41:48 pmTrue, Apple is known for their very closed environment, so this strategy goes very well with that.They thank their "success" to the market of users who want to pay a lot more, and get less trouble and incompatibility issues.Getting it repaired or modified by everyone could undermine that image they built.Is their still no Cyanogenmod-style operating system for Apple? That could be a solution.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2016, 04:18:17 pm
content: Increasingly as devices are "aware" of their parts through software, you're going to see this more and more. Vendors are going to do everything in their power to take complete control of spare parts channel; and we're powerless (except by not buying their products).I drive a Mercedes (first and last), and pretty much everything is tied to the VIN of your car. So (and this happened to me) if your transmission sensor act up, you can't get a salvaged part, you have to buy new (unencoded) from MB. It's so bad that even the headlights control module on some models (GLK) is done this way, so you have to move over the electronics board if you swap out the headlight bezel!!In my case it was cheaper (about 1/3 of the price) to take the sensor board, air ship it across the world to Bulgaria, get it fixed by the only guy that remans then and have it shipped back.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2016, 05:00:01 pm
content: BMWs have chipped batteries. HP has chipped ink cartridges. ...

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2016, 05:15:52 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 11, 2016, 12:54:21 pmEvery time I see BOMs it makes me laugh. Why can't I get a simple enclosure designed and injection molded for $20? if it's that cheap?When you buy a product there are at least 10 other cost items not listed. Things like support, marketing (you're paying for it), back office staff like accountants, HR.. there is also a certain margin to account for returns, not to mention designers, tools and development costs, risk of commitments to buy a certain number of parts to secure pricing. Pick up any item on the market, and I guarantee you the actual cost of the pure BOM is less than 50%.Next thing someone will tell me is free shipping is truly free.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2016, 05:27:26 pm
content: "BOMs"It is sad that some engineers are dumb enough to insist on pricing off bom, knowing that an engineers value add is mostly outside of bom.Kind likeb those young voters supporting candidates who are killing their future.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2016, 12:02:57 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 11, 2016, 05:00:01 pmThat sounds interesting! Any more info on that please?

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2016, 12:10:50 am
content: I'm not sure the battery is chipped, or if it is, it doesn't matter - what does matter is that the battery is registered in the computer when replaced. The battery is not continuously charged, to reduce parasitic loss on the motor and improve mileage. Just wait, it's coming to other cars as well. Third party tools can reset the battery replacement, you don't need to go to a dealer. I have never taken my BMWs to a dealer other than for warranty work - hence my cost of ownership has never been high.Just like we are seeing more and more turbo cars - used to be rather rare in the US because most US drivers have no clue about cars and how they work, and so would blast around and then immediately shut off the car, causing the oil in the turbo bearings to cook. BMW and others now use electric water pumps and oil/water cooled turbos - the water pump can and will run after the car is shut off to keep the turbo from being cooked. BMW is not the only ones doing this.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2016, 12:37:17 am
content: It is a 2010 to 2012 vintage x3m. The battery lost "juice" and couldn't be jumped. Towed to the dealer ship and was told it is a reprogramming issue as the battery stopped talking to the car for some reason. Drove away with the car plus the same battery, reprogrammed.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2016, 03:43:59 am
content: I have a 2012 135 at the moment, it uses the same battery. I've established enough of a relationship with the shops I use that they know I am far from clueless around cars. I'd do even more of my own work if I had more tools - working on it. I now have a garage, after 7+ years of only having street parking and no where to actually work. Anyway, it has been my experience that the level of bullshit from the service representative increases exponentially with their assessment of your lack of knowledge of cars. I had an older 328 that just died on me, not so much as a click when turning the key, and it could not be jumped. Nothing so sinister as some communications flaw - either one of the battery plates broke, or enough material accumulated in the bottom to short out a plate or two - not bad since it was a 7 year old battery in a BMW. New battery - good as new. What's funny is there was an auto parts store in walking distance of where the car was, but a coworker of my ex's had gone there to get a battery for his Honda Civic, just a wee little battery, and paid something like $150. So I was figuring if they charge that much for a Civic battery, the 3-4x as large BMW one is going to be, well, a lot. I paid $100 for it, and they threw in the vent kit needed to connect the vent to the existing BMW vent pipe (battery in trunk, need to vent the hydrogen overboard). I know there is programming required for a battery change, in part because you can get a conventional lead acid battery or an AGM type, and the characteristics are different. There is a circuit board directly attached to the positive terminal of my battery, but there are no wires other than the positive and negative connections. I suppose it could use some other form of communications, even superimposed on the DC. I really think it's just in the computer, not in the battery itself though - I can use any proper size battery, I do not have to get an actual BMW one. In fact the company that makes many BMW OEM batteries (as well as many others) is not far from me and they often sell seconds in their outlet store for a fraction of the regular price - I got a battery for my lawn tractor for like $25, most places want $50 or more for one. The flaw? The label is on crooked. Like I said, there are third party scan tools for BMW that can do the battery coding, so there is no issue in DIY or having an independent shop do it. I have heard of faults where the computer forgets the type of battery and it doesn't charge, so eventually it will die on you - but it's not because of lack of communications between some chip in the battery and the car's computer. Doesn't take much of a software bug when the computer is telling the alternator when and when not to charge the battery for it to just never go to charge mode.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2016, 03:47:22 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 11, 2016, 05:00:01 pm...Lexmark chips their toner cartridges.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2016, 04:16:02 am
content: The printer market has been locking up their toner/ink replacements either mechanically (through various gear mechanisms) or electronically (now with chips) for years.... almost an exactly inverse relationship with the cost of the printers themselves.They practically dump printers on the market for nothing, to "lock" you into the printer and then try to make up the profits on the residuals (ink, toner, drums, cartridges, etc). Now the first toners you get with a printer are not even "reset-able" and are a fraction of the capacity of a regular cartridge... forcing you to buy new toner within a few months, at a huge mark-up. If you want to hack your "non-reusable" cartridge, you have to get a special end-cap gear assembly because the starter cartridge doesn't even have one. Not to mention, entering into special menus within the printer using special combo-keys that are only known by techs to access the software to "reset" things. All of this designed to keep you in their "ecosystem". Sounds familiar?My purchase decision on a new printer usually involves researching how well it can be hacked, who knows the special keys to access secret reset menus, do 3rd party toner/refill suppliers support it, and so on. As long as I know I can do what I need to do with my own printer, I'll buy it. Otherwise if there is little documentation or support and too many chips/controls on the system, I refuse to buy it.Didn't a coffee brewer Keurig also lock down their coffee-pods?http://www.cnet.com/news/keurig-2-0-brews-up-drm-to-freeze-out-copycat-cups/Here is another example of a company hoping to lock people into their products. I understand they want to force "quality control" and also penalize any non-licensed suppliers of pods that are infringing on their market. I think we will be seeing more and more of this, especially with the Internet-Of-Things and prevalence of cheap electronic chips, NFC and other wireless detection systems.Pretty soon our plates and bowls will refuse to be used with other than approved forks, knives and spoons!

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2016, 04:40:17 am
content: I still have the older Keurig that doesn't have the stupid locked down k-cups - although it's easy enough to defeat.Printers have just gotten way too stupid with the cost of supplies. I will NEVER buy another ink printer of any brand, I don't print enough and I end up wasting 3/4 or more of each cartridge because it dries out long before it actually has all the ink expended. I stuffed my last one in a closet and haven't touched it in 2 years. Instead I hooked up an old LaserJet 6MP I have had for a long time, back when I got it (for free! - with a partially full toner in it and a second unopened new one) I picked up some memory and maxxed it out so it wouldn't error on large Postscript files. This thing just chugs right along - it's not a speedy printer, but it keeps on printing whenever I need it to, and the toner will never 'dry out' from lack of use. No chipping of the cartridge in these old ones, either - or if there is, it makes no visible change to the operation of the printer - I just finally used up the second cartridge and bought some random generic one on Newegg - half the price of the genuine HP one, and it works perfectly fine.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2016, 05:52:01 am
content: All you people who are defeating these systems, please be aware that changes in laws on an international scale are criminalizing your behavior.Go without smartphones and printed TP paper if you must, wipe with unprinted.Don''t become another statistic, imprisoned for the benefit of the global private prison industry!

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2016, 06:29:21 am
content: Quote from: cdev on February 12, 2016, 05:52:01 amSomeone better warn this guyhttp://www.canberratimes.com.au/lifestyle/diet-and-fitness/us-mans-simple-hack-to-save-on-costly-nespresso-pods-20160128-gmgjsp.html

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2016, 07:34:42 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on February 10, 2016, 04:49:12 pmI don't think how to do it is secret.The security probably relies on a diversified key that is injected into the touch pad to allow it to operate with the CPU. It's tamper proof to prevent the key or device being compromised. Apple control the key diversification and injection. That's not poor security.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2016, 11:41:58 am
content: 'I paid $100 for it,'Most of the batteries here go for 150. Size doesn't seem to matter.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2016, 01:06:20 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 12, 2016, 11:41:58 amNow they do, that's what I paid for a battery for my 540. That other one was more than 10 years ago.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2016, 01:41:01 pm
content: I just replaced the battery in a late model Toyota (Sequoia). ~$250 all in. The old battery seemed to work but the dealer said that it failed the load test.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 01:09:43 am
content: And here we go: Apple has released a fix that unbricks affected devices. Their explanation — which was my suspicion, if you read up — is that it was a mistake. In this case, a test intended for factory testing.http://techcrunch.com/2016/02/18/apple-apologizes-and-updates-ios-to-restore-iphones-disabled-by-error-53/

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 09:38:22 am
content: Seems like they got past the profanities and finally listened to Louis Rossman.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 09:59:36 am
content: Quote from: tooki on February 19, 2016, 01:09:43 amNow they say this for covering their asses once the shit started to boil. I don't believe factory programming happens the same way as firmware update by the user.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 11:42:52 am
content: Quote from: cdev on February 12, 2016, 05:52:01 amAll the better, that more people should fight. They can't catch everyone...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 03:32:45 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 19, 2016, 09:59:36 amI'm guessing it actually does, more or less.We know for a fact that fully assembled iPhones do not initially have iOS on them, but rather low-level test software instead (because it has happened in the past that units were shipped by mistake with that on it instead of iOS!!). Knowing this, it isnecessarily the casethat the final factory programming with iOS must happen to the finished, fully assembled device, which has exactly two exposed electrical ports: headphone and Lightning. It cannot be via JTAG or ISP or whatever, because those interfaces are now sealed inside the device.Clearly this test is in a routine used only for full firmware restores (which is how an iTunes update is performed, in essence), and the factory test explanation is plausible, since there's no situation where they'd want to ship a device with a non-functional Touch ID subsystem. It looks like they simply forgot to tell iOS itself and/or iTunes how to handle that error, because they didn't expect it to encounter it in devices that had already left the factory.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 03:53:17 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 20, 2016, 03:32:45 pmThen why their initial explanation was that this behavior is intended?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 05:12:34 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 20, 2016, 03:53:17 pmIf it was actually intended, they would have written a verbose error message. I think you're misinterpreting early statements.Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 20, 2016, 04:11:47 pmBelieve what you want. I prefer to believe plausible, simple explanations more than conspiracy theories. I know it may be hard for you to believe, but sometimes people and companies are actually not acting maliciously.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 05:52:05 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 20, 2016, 05:12:34 pmI don't find their new excuse plausible as anything but back peddling in the face of the public outcry, otherwise they wouldn't have said it was a security feature to begin with. No one is misinterpreting that, that's what they said. And at the end of the day they either lied then or now. Which lie was OK in your view?And thinking they'd give you a verbose message just because it's what they intended is very naive, I can't remember how often I've had to search the web or manuals for the meaning of some error message, and that's without people trying to be sneaky as to what's actually happening. Maybe if it was for user security purposes as they first claimed, now something Apple says they lied about, it would be verbose, but given the way it dealt with the issue a terse error code is more than would be expected TBH. All this new statement tells us is that it definitely wasn't a security feature meant for user security. Given the lie they admitted to how can you take what they now say about the same issue at face value?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 05:59:46 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 20, 2016, 05:12:34 pmAm I?http://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/feb/05/error-53-apple-iphone-software-update-handset-worthless-third-party-repairQuote

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 02:05:04 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 20, 2016, 05:59:46 pmNone of that says that disabling the whole phone was the intent. It says that Touch ID is disabled, but not the entire device.Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 20, 2016, 09:40:29 pmUh huh. Right. So only conspiracy theorists ignore spam email? Oh, that's rich!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 02:46:35 pm
content: For Apple fanboys even pee in the eyes would be a God bless.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 09:23:32 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on February 21, 2016, 02:31:46 pmNo, it didn't go over my head. There is no parallel. Stupidity is one thing; not believing conspiracies is quite another. Those often go hand in hand, since conspiracy theorists often lack the critical reasoning to realize how implausible their theories are.But whatever, I don't care what you think. You're obviously impervious to data, logic, or common sense, so there's no point in wasting any more of my time.

author: gnavigator1007
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2017, 04:36:20 pm
content: Just saw from the BBC that an Australian consumer protection group has taken action against Apple over the whole error 53 drama.http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-39517028Anybody been keeping up with this? The potential fines don't seem too serious for a company as big as Apple

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 02:39:12 am
content: Cars are just as bad. Sensor stopped working in my transmission.Can't get one from a wrecker because the computer board on the sensor is tied to the VIN of the care. Your only choice is to buy a new (unprogrammed one) from the dealer.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 11:28:28 pm
content: Quote from: boffin on April 09, 2017, 02:39:12 amYou're an EE (or if you're posting here, a reasonable approximation to one) --- it could be as easy as rewriting an EEPROM.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 03:32:59 am
content: Quote from: amyk on April 09, 2017, 11:28:28 pmSadly it's in something that I lack the tooling to get into (and put back together). and then still don't know exactly what we're looking for as to where the VIN is encoded. Ended up shipping it to an Eastern European company who did it (with warranty) for a couple of hundred $