Insane overengineering of a car headlight - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2022, 04:20:40 am
content: Were the designers too bored to keep things simple?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2022, 09:51:04 am
content: I will never understand why some people get outraged at new technology that’s more complex than they’re used to. It’s more complex because it does more. It does more because that solves shortcomings in the older, “simple” technology. What’s so hard to comprehend about that?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2022, 10:03:53 am
content: Pretty 'insane', but I've a neighbor with a 2011 Mercedes E Class with the original factory LED headlamps still looking good.My 2015 Golf also has LED headlamps and they look fantastic, no signs of wear, illuminate the road brilliantly whilst not dazzling oncoming drivers.Some engineers seem to have a clinical condition of ludditus!

author: ace1903
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2022, 11:30:50 am
content: I see this as "just because we can" approach.99% of the drivers drive on well lighted towns and urban neighborhoods. Even in my country which is the poorest in the Europe all roads are designed to be nice to drive with 30+ years old car.Where you need to drive your car to see advantages of this level of technology? I understand that is beneficial for lorry drivers in rural Australia, but 2000$ headlamp to take your kid from kinder garden is overkill. I know it LEDs consumes less current and are sold as eco friendly but when I saw pile of headlamps at local junkyard I think they pollute much more than average H4 lamp in lifetime of the car.I can't see how aluminum can be recycled when this contraption will visit scrapping place? To separate plastic, millions screws is expensive, to (burn) melt aluminum with some plastic is toxic.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2022, 12:25:08 pm
content: I don't know what roads you drive on, but the 60 mph single carriageway roads in the UK are generally unlit, except for the most dangerous junctions.Imagine trying to negotiate a road like this with crap headlights:https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.5154043,-4.1153472,3a,81.4y,294.71h,87.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXUBXnLCaNZcsJPdJfbxnYg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192(I was here at night a few months ago, and I felt comfortable enough to maintain a 60 mph pace through most parts in my car.)The recyclability is definitely a concern, though these LED lamps should last much longer. It's a problem when the whole car gets recycled, though.IMO the benefit of LED lamps is not fuel/energy efficiency or lifespan, though those are small factors, but the much higher brightness possible by precision focused optics and the ability to carefully vary the light output to avoid dazzling oncoming traffic. The LED lamps on my car are a fixed distribution, but they're carefully shaped so the dipped beam stops right at the edge of the oncoming lane, minimising any dazzling effect. This was one of the benefits of HID lamps, though less so given it is ultimately just a point source. With full-matrix LED lamps, the ADAS camera can be used to shape the beam perfectly so that your lane is lit up but the oncoming traffic receives no glare. It's a great achievement and already available on many basic cars.This is the system fitted to a lot of new cars now:

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2022, 01:52:23 pm
content: Night driving can be a really miserable experience these days. In the ‘olden days’ you just had to deal with selfish or forgetful drivers who left their high beams switched on as you approached them at close range. These days it is not uncommon to be dazzled by the modern HID projector lamps used for standard (low) beam headlights. I had HID’s in my 2002 Audi TT and got a lot of flashes from other drivers despite their alignment being ‘within factory specification’ and MoT compliant. The real nightmare was amateurs fitting upgraded lighting systems that were not correctly aligned etc. they were in a minority however. It was the general fitting of HID lamps that made night driving unpleasant for me. The light was a blue/white harsh colour temperature that hurts if you get dazzled by it. The driver of the HID equipped vehicle might see benefit from the higher quality light output, but it can make night driving somewhat wearing for other drivers, both oncoming and in front of the projector lights.Many moons ago my wise father warned me about the use of the powerful additional high beam flood lighting that I attached to my Ford Escort Mk3. Whilst they gave excellent long distance illumination, they tended to create a dark blind spot nearer to the vehicle and when switched off, night vision took time to adjust. I rarely used them in the end. There is such a thing as ‘too bright’ in some driving scenarios. Reflective signs can be an issue as well.So this thread appears to be discussing new technology that some clever minds have come up with that tries to keep the brighter illumination where it belongs (on the road and edges) and reduce the dazzling effect on oncoming drivers etc. I do not think such a development is without merit and it needs to be considered as the vehicle headlight technology develops and produces a more intense beam of light. The old way was to either use prisms, shaped reflectors or carefully positioned light blocking plates. They all worked to a degree, but are far from perfect. If this new technology is intended to better control the light beams emitted from a vehicle, I am in favour of it as an advancement in illumination technology.Those old enough may remember the Citroen car that had headlights linked to the steering system that actually steered the whole headlight as the cat travelled around corners. Citroen were well known for innovation and quirky vehicle designs but it has been said that they were “just ahead of their time”. When you consider how many vehicles travel the roads in poor weather or darkness, is it not a good idea to continue development of the lighting systems that enable the driver to safely travel the roads and avoid accidents ? I think it isWhat I do object to is frivolous deployment of ultra bright LED systems that do little to improve safety, and can even degrade safety in some cases. How many on here have been dazzled by modern high intensity red LED rear brake light assemblies when in traffic ? The designers of some vehicles have employed a large number of such high intensity LED’s for ‘visual effect’ (cosmetics) rather than safety. Such bright rear light assemblies can really be a pain to sit behind in traffic.Now the fun bit…. Cost of replacement ! An LED is a long life device but when mounted in a vehicle, the lighting assembly is exposed to harsh conditions that can lead to lighting assembly failure. In the good old days a filament lamp would fail and could replaced for a £1 to £5, depending upon which lamp it was (simple or complex headlight lamp). Then came the HID headlights and their associated replacement cost….my Audi TT needed Philips HID’s at £125 each and the HID lamps had no guaranteed life span ! They could fail quickly or after several thousands of hours use. The HID driver Ballasts could also fail and they were not cheap to replace.Now we have entered the era of LED illumination in a big way. High intensity LEDs are common and relatively inexpensive. They have a long service life when treated properly BUT….. place such technology in a harsh environment and there is the potential for failure of the LED, it’s driver or other parts of the lighting assembly through corrosion etc. “So what” some might says and “just replace the failed LED or assembly” ….. well life is not that simple. Generally speaking the high power LED’s are not individually replaceable as the OEM wants the owner to fit a whole new lighting assembly. Fine when such an assembly costs a few Pounds or Dollars, but how do you feel about having to pay $1K when your rear light assembly suffers a failure or >$1K when a headlight assembly fails ! Yep, no kidding. Those are the prices being charged by car manufacturers today. GM being one such company. Such prices could easily write off a vehicle of a certain age that has a shunt and breaks both the headlights plus the usual £2K for a bumper on cars like an Audi. I suspect we will see companies offering lighting assembly repair services once such expensive parts become more widespread.We are in an age of transition to “electric transport is the way forwards” and can expect much innovation in the coming years. It will be an unstoppable force that the public will either love or hate, depending upon their experiences. I suspect t that more modern technology will bring with it significant costs for the owners who choose to keep their vehicles longer than a few years though. I am driving a 16 year old AUDI A4 1.8T that is immaculate….but it burns fossil fuel (cleanly) so apparently has no future. I doubt many people will be driving 16 year old electric cars in the new future that awaits us. They will be scrapped as uneconomic to repair long before they reach such an age….just like your laptops and phonesProgress is good and unstoppable, but it can get expensive !Fraser

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2022, 02:29:46 pm
content: Quote from: ace1903 on February 13, 2022, 11:30:50 amUhhhh… wtf you talking about? In Europe, suburban and rural areas are where people are more likely to own cars. City dwellers mostly rely on public transit.Have you ever driven in the Swiss countryside? The roads are winding and unlit. And that’s not hours away from cities, but just a few minutes outside.Around the world we arereducingstreet lighting because of the negative effects of light pollution. And part of that effort means headlamps must be good.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2022, 02:37:42 pm
content: The original and more recent Citroen headlight steering systems. The original DS steering headlights were a very clever concept. They could steer the lighting on hair pin bends ! It was a mechanical system with rods and pivots. Those Citroen engineers knew how to “think outside the box”https://citroencarclub.org.uk/directional-headlights/https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-origins/ph-origins-directional-headlights/39160Fraser

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 01:49:40 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on February 13, 2022, 01:52:23 pmI think you put your finger on what annoys many people! - Consider the possibility that the cost of almost everything is going up faster than wages?Surely it is acceptable have simple (but safe and adequate) headlamps on a basic car?

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 02:33:00 pm
content: The total lumens is mandated by the construction and use regulations here in the UK, so the light output on new cars is much the same as older ones with halogen lamps, the difference seems to be in the colour and source concentration leading to hurting the yes of oncoming drivers. The light needs to be made far more yellow/red not the blue white that the led's emit at present, I find the LED headlamps so harsh that it burns into the retina so that I see blue circles for some seconds after an oncoming car has passed.High intensity discharge and light emitting diode headlamps are much brighter than halogen ones but have the potential to cause excessive dazzle to oncoming traffic, which is exacerbated if the headlamps are aimed too high or are dirty. Vehicles with headlamps that have light sources emitting more than 2000 lumens are required by type approval regulations to be fitted with a headlamp washing system. In practice this usually means HID headlamps, but lamps using any light source of more than 2000 lumens must have them. Washers may optionally be fitted in other cases.Where headlamp washers are fitted but are inoperative on vehicles first used after 1 September 2009 this will be recorded as a major defect on the annual roadworthiness test if the vehicle has HID or LED headlamps; in other cases it will be a minor defect.A levelling device is also required for HID and LED headlamps, either automatic or manual (operable from the driver’s seat if manual) and this is also included in the test. Again, a major defect will be recorded if it does not work.Existing headlamps on vehicles first used on or after 1 April 1986 must not be converted to be used with HID or LED light sources. The complete unit may be replaced but the vehicle must then comply with the requirements for headlamp washers and levelling devices.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 03:13:46 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on February 14, 2022, 01:49:40 pmBasic cars still have halogen lamps but LED lamps are falling in cost, making them more common place.For instance you get LED headlamps on a VW Golf now in the basic or second-up-from-basic trim, it's not much extra than a halogen system and has significant advantages.

author: ace1903
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 03:33:49 pm
content: QuoteNailed it. I would say that investment in new car is artificially inflated.I am not against progress and benefits of the LED technology. But here I see put intention to put everything together all PCBs, plastic, heatsinks LEDs laser in one hermetic housing.Marketing says only benefits but no one talks that after 5-10 years if you decide to sell the car it will be worthless just because some led died.If spark plug is worn or broken you replace only 4 spark plugs not the entire engine. I believe that technology if it is so advanced to include LASERs, it can be also advanced to make the headlampsmodular and to be possible to replace only LEDs or PCB or fan inside the housing.If the compromise is to drive 50mph instead of 60mph at night because my car is without this blessing technology I would gladly accept it.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 04:11:37 pm
content: Quote from: ace1903 on February 14, 2022, 03:33:49 pmThe average price that people pay for a car/light truck in the USA is now $40,472 as of late 2021.I guess they have to include some advanced features to try to justify this price level! - even though the real world benefits are sometimes questionable.Cars are getting more difficult to repair for the same reasons that phones are sealed so you cannot (easily) replace the battery, or expand the memory, or use wired headphones.... basically, you are expected to keep paying a monthly fee and keep replacing them.They don't want people using older products and getting away without paying the steadily increasing prices, which they seem to consider to be their birthright to collect every month!

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 04:44:56 pm
content: There is a follow up on the laser diode power.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 05:01:43 pm
content: "Insane overengineering"...?Amateurs.

author: Tangent_Tracker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 05:19:52 pm
content: It's called progress, and I love it. The jury is still out as to whether laser headlights give much improvement over LED atm though....

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 05:31:44 pm
content: You call it progress until you receive a repair bill. Then you call it overengineering.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 05:39:53 pm
content: Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one in the world who is perfectly happy with (properly functioning and aimed) halogen headlights. I also, surrounded by people with illegal and/or severely misaimed lights on their personality replacement trucks, often wonder if I'm in some elite group that holds the secret knowledge of what a low beam is for.The low beam is not for seeing 600 yards ahead, any animals hiding in the tree canopy, and oncoming drivers making rude gestures at your light vomiting vehicle, it's for lighting the road ahead (and signs on the side) far enough you'll have time to stop or evade if something pops into that light, nothing more.Then there are the dead stock LED/HID/Laser cars that blind me every time they hit a bump, which I assume is just a nasty case of the tech getting too far ahead of the regs. They need to be aimed farther down to account for the razor sharp cutoff, but that probably doesn't sell, because people don't know what headlights are for.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 05:51:07 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 14, 2022, 03:13:46 pmLike what?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 06:42:08 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 14, 2022, 05:51:07 pmWhen you have a fender bender you now have to pay $2k per side, and also dealer part only, as opposed to the aftermarket halogen being $20, and not needing to be coded to the vehicle to operate. So your insurance premium goes up as well.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 07:04:06 pm
content: Realistically, LED headlamps are going to do min. 15,000 hours before replacement is needed, and probably 30,000 hours is achievable.My car while driving has averaged about 30 mph, so that would be over 450,000 miles for this car, assuming the lamps are on all the time, which itself is unlikely. I have seen almost no cars on the road with failed LED headlamps, although one or two with failed DRL lights (usually one or two LEDs in the whole assembly, so more of a cosmetic issue.)I guess the problem is when the cost of repair is large, but the chance of failure is low, the average person might see no change in the cost of running a car, but there is a risk of being stung with say a $1,000 bill.It's a bit like how a car can run perfectly fine for 5 years and then suffer a catastrophic engine failure e.g. snapped timing belt. The chance is very low, but the consequence is very high.For those unable to budget for these types of events, I suppose that's what a warranty is for. Personally I prefer to save my money and just budget for an event like this. So far, even though I own a German car, this has worked out cheaper than buying the warranty.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 07:07:18 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 14, 2022, 05:51:07 pmBetter beam distribution.Cooler light, which is better for night driving than the warmer light that a halogen produces.Brighter light in the allowed area, with lower glare, improving visibility. For vehicles with dynamic/matrix LED, this is even more pronounced. On my car with conventional LED headlamps, the beam is tightly distributed within its lane, with minimal spillover into adjacent lanes. On high-beam, the visibility is absolutely superb. The effect is visibility is considerably better than a car with halogen lamps, which benefits safety and reduces driver stress and fatigue.If you have not driven a car with LED lamps then perhaps you would not know - but I never want to go back. So much so I won't consider another car unless it has at least equivalent non-matrix LED lamps to my Golf.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 07:16:43 pm
content: Reading this thread brought to mind an article I read the other day on Tesla. They have (apparently) engineered a LED matrix headlight that they will fit to all cars. The matrix will then configure itself to display the leagle light pattern in the country you are driving in. I assume they have done the costings and have worked out that this is cheaper than building and stocking unique headlights for each area

author: trevers
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 07:40:08 pm
content: Bah! We don't need all of these things... The old way was cheaper and simpler.Safety Glass - Non laminated was cheaperFuel injection - Carbs were great just a simple mechanical device, none of these new fangled computers telling MY engine how to run!Seat belts - Just adds cost and besides isn't it safer for the passengers to be thrown clear of the wreck?Airbags - It's a plot to sell more airbags after a crash by the automotive cabal!Crumple Zones - Who needs all of that complicated engineering and fancy materials. I want my engine to pushed into the passenger compartment after the crash, it's faster to check for damage that way.Radial Tires - Man give me back my bias-ply retreads, another conspiracy!Anti-lock brakes - Again with the computers? My old non-power assisted drums worked fine.Power steering - Just more over-engineered extras I get a free workout when parking!etc. etc. etc...Seriously the only person who would complain about modern headlights is someone who has never driven a car with them.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 07:49:56 pm
content: .

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 08:16:51 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on February 14, 2022, 01:49:40 pmI get this, but cars are one of the few areas where technology trickle down is working really well and even cheap cars are getting better and better (safer, more functional, more efficient, lower maintenance, more comfortable, and longer lasting) without getting much more expensive. A common complaint is that "the average new car in the US now costs over $40,000" which is true but mostly explained by people buying more expensive vehicles. For instance in the US SUVs and pickup trucks have totally taken over the market, and luxury vehicles are much more common than in the past. But if you look at basic compact cars they are only slightly more expensive inflation adjusted than they were a few decades ago (OK, I'm only consider pre-COVID world without insane markups). But they last much longer, have far less maintenance and fuel costs, and retain more resale value. Modern economy cars are overall a lower cost of ownership than previous generations paid, while at the same time providing dramatically better safety and comfort.This progress has been uneven, and some individual features have increased costs or been maintenance problems, but overall the trend has been very good at least until recently. It's too early to see how the most recent few years of technology advancements will fare in the long term, and car manufacturers are certainly looking at ways to subvert this such as subscription features that will allow them to keep extracting money from older vehicles or render them substantially worse than when new.It is certainly true that wages haven't kept up with the cost of living and that makes everything hurt, but mostly the cost of cars is not a significant part of the problem. To the extent that cars are even involved it is mostly that people are buying more cars, driving them more, and buying more expensive classes of vehicles. I'm not saying people are necessarily being irresponsible or stupid either: the increase in driving is largely caused by changing housing, work, and education needs which again are factors that suffer from wage stagnation.

author: ace1903
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 08:27:04 pm
content: QuoteOne my relative had junkyard (don't know proper word for metals recycling facility) and I once saw pile of headlamps received from dealership all almost new.Like one hundred of them, in theory worth 100.000$ but in practice he needed to pay to be disposed in landfill. Polycarbonate is difficult to work with, so no one was able to take aluminum and other metals out.MTBF for single LED on desk is not the same as assembly in the car where vibrations are present, thermal and humidity cycling. There also will be some capacitor that will fail because at summer in enclosed space near the engine 85C is not unusual. I took several of them apart and most common fault was that single led from turning indicator failed rendering whole assembly unusable.Maybe my general opinion is based on faulty series from specific manufacturer but 15,000 is hardly to be believed.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 08:27:51 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 14, 2022, 07:04:06 pmUS collision rate is 1.5 collisions per 1M vehicle miles. Assuming a well taken care of vehicle can last 200,000 miles, it is expected to be involved in 0.3 collisions in its life. If the replacement cost of 2 headlamps is $2000, the mathematical expectation for the owner of the fancy lights is $600!Do the same math for every other over-engineered and overpriced part in your car, and you begin to see the outline of a cost explosion... - if you are a shareholder, then.... if not, then

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 08:39:43 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on February 14, 2022, 08:16:51 pmBuyers are part of the problem, choosing more expensive goods than they can actually afford (cars, phones, etc.) - that is certainly not a new phenomenon, of course!That said, the averageusedcar in the US sold for a whopping $29,969 in December 2021, according to Edmunds. That’s up from an average of $23,185 one year prior, nearly 30%.What would the prices be like if people refused to pay this much? - it seems to me that most people are limited only by what the bank is willing to lend them, whether we are talking about cars or houses...or headlights!

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 09:22:56 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on February 14, 2022, 07:49:56 pmI drove a Skoda Octavia recently (while my Golf was in for service) which had mixed LED main beam and halogen high beam. It was odd... but I suppose not an unreasonable compromise there.But absolutely becoming commonplace. I agree that it should be made easier to replace the modules if they go bad. To be honest if they are in commonplace cars like Dacia, VW group, Ford, PSA, then they will become available on the OEM market anyway as there will be demand for these parts when 1 million+ cars are made.The thing that's interesting is the average age of a car on the UK roads has been going up  (and the number of cars over 13 years old is 3x higher than it was in 2000, whereas the total number of cars is only up 50%), so if anything cars are becoming more reliable despite the increase in technology, because they're certainly not economic write offs and probably things like ACC and AEB reduce the chance of a serious accident. I can say the AEB in my Golf has warned me well before I noticed an impending pile up - it hasn't ever been the difference between an accident and not but it's certainly going to be the case for some drivers.The high prices of used cars are more an indication of high demand for modern vehicles whilst semiconductor supplies are squeezed. High used prices are good news for car manufacturers. They make newer cars look more attractive, and consequentially leases are cheaper. I always thought this idea of a car losing 25% of its value once you drive it off the forecourt to be a bit strange, if you think about it, it really doesn't make any sense. Perhaps this blip in the market is going to be more permanent.https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/veh02-licensed-cars(VEH0207)

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 10:13:43 pm
content: If new prices are high enough, and supplies are low enough, used cars can only go through the roof...At some point, it becomes cheaper to use Uber...

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 04:14:47 am
content: Quote from: trevers on February 14, 2022, 07:40:08 pmThere's a difference between insane overengineering with planned obolescence and multiple points of failure, and simple reliable systems which are actually worth their cost. A seatbelt is the perfect example of the latter.I agree with the others here about how much worse the headlights on newer cars are --- both from the perspective of the driver in the car with one, as well as in the oncoming car. They are brighter, but that's actually worse for driving because you end up with much more contrast (that sharp cutoff) between the bright and dark area, and it really messes with the eyes' light adaptation. You end up with an area of high visibility right in front, and much worse off to the sides where moving objects might appear from. The older lights were dimmer, but had a wider and softer fade-out, so your eyes aren't only adapting to the very bright spot in front and can actually see better to the sides.All the talk about these fancy systems keeping the bright spot "in your lane" is the complete opposite of what good headlights should do - provideevenillumination at a brightness that doesn't blind oncoming drivers. Maybe the focus can be slightly brighter, but there's a reason night driving is more dangerous, and it's not because of the darkness --- it's because of thecontrast. During the day, you can see hazards from all around because it's bright and even illumination. At night, all you have is a "tunnel of light", and making that brighter while keeping everything else just as dark isn't going to improve things.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 05:49:08 am
content: Mike ('s electric stuff) did a video of a fancy headlight too, in case you missed it.Car headlights had a surge in the late '90's. Prior to that they were universally terrible.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 10:04:48 am
content: Quote from: amyk on February 15, 2022, 04:14:47 amExcept that you’re just plain… wrong. Look at the actual beam patterns of modern adaptive lights, and they light the edgesbetter. Old headlamps had to limit their wide-pattern brightness to avoid blinding oncoming traffic. Adaptive ones solve that a different way and thus can have a wider throw.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 06:47:02 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on February 14, 2022, 10:13:43 pmThe "new normal" is heading towards the point where"you'll be happy not owning anything".Subscription-based business models, which are quickly becoming the norm, are a step towards this already.Making products too expensive to repair, by design, is also inevitably leading towards the same, whether this is intentional or not.Anyone here is free to judge whether or not this is desirable.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 07:40:50 pm
content: Quote from: ace1903 on February 13, 2022, 11:30:50 amI wish I could say that about the roads I drive on, I rely very heavily on my headlights. The stock US-spec headlights on my car were total garbage, dangerously bad. I was fortunate enough to be able to source a pair of European spec H4 headlamps that are drastically better, although still not quite as good as what a lot of modern cars come with.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 08:35:17 pm
content: Eric ‘O introduces the modern world of GM LED rear light clusters…… you can replace the reversing lamp…. But anything else…. Fit a comp,etc cluster at over $700 !https://youtu.be/5T3hQTGxfK0Fraser

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 08:50:26 pm
content: A couple of general comments / random observations from reading back through the thread...- As with all things, I'm sure the pattern forming LED headlights provide superior illumination and hopefully, reduced glarewhen new. Gradual clouding of the outer polycarbonate lenses of headlamps seems to be almost inevitable at some point as the car ages, either from Solar UV or from cumulative impact or road grit, probably both. At that point you will end up with extremely bright light sources with diffusers in front of them. No matter how well the beams are controlled, this is bound to greatly increase the dazzle factor for oncoming drivers. Yes, of course this is a factor in halogen lamps too, but the lower brightness and colour temperature probably makes this less objectionable. We may end up with a situation where sealed headlamp systems start failing vehicle inspections much sooner than we are accustomed to.- Given that the life of halogen bulbs is typically rated in the low hundreds of hours, the suggested LED lifetime figure of 15k hours is very dubious. The number of halogen bulb changes in the lifetime of a typical car can usually be counted on the fingers of one hand. I'm sure that manufacturers will prioritise brightness (and phosphor light output decline) over lifetime, to bring it more in line with the expected life of the rest of the car. Clocking up 15k hours of accumulated driving time, spread over any number of cars, makes it almost inevitable that driver will die the wheel - assuming a very pessimistic 50:50 day:night ratio, that comes to somewhere between 1 and 2 Million miles!- For those with a sensitivity to the glare of high colour temperature lights, HIDorLED, polarized light yellow tinted driving glasses make things a lot less painful. Yes, there must be some minimal light attenuation, but the reduction in dazzle offsets this, it takes the edge off blue tinted oncoming headlights while favouring the colour temperature of your own halogen headlights.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:01:53 pm
content: In the 70's and 80's I drove tens thousands of miles with vehicles fitted with sealed beam units, only ever had one fail and that was when a stone broke the glass. You could also replace a Rolls Royce unit with one that fitted a Mini for a fraction of the price of an original the only difference was there was no RR moulded into the lens. I found that the sealed beam units were more than up to the job when driving on dark twisty country roads even in fog, just did not expect to do eighty miles an hour.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:06:38 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on February 15, 2022, 08:50:26 pmIt's a good thing they're readily polished then?

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:11:30 pm
content: there must be some concept where driver and pedestrian/cyclist must see each other and not only one of themsuper bright light is disorienting/blinding in dark night conditionsis removed control of situation in situations where other person is not capable

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:20:32 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on February 14, 2022, 08:27:51 pmThe biggest problem is the demise of bumpers. Cars used to have sturdy bumpers to absorb minor impacts and protect the expensive painted bodywork, lights and other stuff. Now the entire front and rear end of cars is a sacrificial structure and there is absolutely nothing to protect the expensive bits. What would have been a minor fender bender now results in a total loss. You cannot even buy a simple, rugged maintainable car anymore.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:40:43 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 15, 2022, 09:06:38 pmYes sure, you can attack them with aftermarket polishing and surface sealing solutions, they'll never be as good as new though. You get crazing and micro cracking in the polycarbonate that you'll never polish out.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:41:23 pm
content: I have just seen a suggestion in this thread that yellow driving glasses are good for combating eye fatigue caused by the modern lighting systems. I bought a pair and mentioned them to my optician. He advised that I should not wear yellow tinted glasses at night as the filtering effect means I would not see a pedestrian dressed in blue clothing. I was not aware of this but apparently the wearing of yellow tinted glasses for night driving is a serious no-no. A pity as they did work well against HID headlights.Fraser

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 11:14:57 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 14, 2022, 07:07:18 pmI think those are both incorrect, certainly the colour temperature is known to be preferential for driving at night if it is warmer. There's many studies on this.Brighter light in the allowed area is also not necessarily a good thing, the eye cannot quickly shift exposure for dark areas so it's very easy to get dark blindness where the beam cannot effectively/legally cover.Most cars with LEDs that I've driven are OK, probably no better than a decent HID headlamp setup, but the matrix types are extremely distracting both for the driver and oncoming vehicles.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 11:45:01 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on February 15, 2022, 09:40:43 pm70k miles down the road nothing on the inside or outside of my car is or will ever be good as new - is this a problem? I can't speak for fancy laser headlights, but traditional ones are certainly restorable to be perfectly serviceable.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 01:43:34 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on February 15, 2022, 09:40:43 pmAnd you have to polish every year or so as the UV keeps attacking the plastic.I've not tried it, but I've heard scuffing with fine sandpaper and spraying on the best gloss clear coat paint you can get (to add back UV protection) is a fairly permanent fix.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 04:35:50 pm
content: I saw this youtube video where the headlamps were "polished" by directing heated acetone vapor onto them... looks good in the video!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 06:46:08 pm
content: I wonder how many Americansthinkthey’ve been dealing with being blinded by modern headlamps, not realizing they’ve never, ever seen them in use? I ask because it was in the news today that just yesterday, the NHTSA announced that it willfinallyallow adaptive headlamps and not just “dumb” high and low beams.https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/02/the-us-will-finally-allow-adaptive-beam-headlights-on-new-cars/(Note also that the beam patterns in USA up to now contain a deliberate amount of upwards lighting to illuminate road signs. And that many of the headlamps that really dazzle oncoming traffic are illegal aftermarket units. And that the worst dazzling is experienced by sedan drivers, caused by SUVs both oncoming and behind them, due to the height differential.)

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 09:51:48 pm
content: .

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 10:11:15 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 16, 2022, 06:46:08 pmExactly. Drivers in the US resort to sketchy aftermarket headlights because our Federal lighting standards are criminally obsolete. It's good to see that NHTSA is finally starting to address this.Lots of people claim that headlights were "just fine 30 years ago," but they don't understand that we lose about half our contrast sensitivity as we age. Headlights that were fine when we were in our twenties were never adequate for drivers in their fifties and beyond.Collisions with animals are also much more frequent now than they were decades ago, when hunting was more of an everyday activity and predators were not aggressively culled, relocated, or otherwise forced from their habitats. You need every advantage you can get if you drive in an area with a large deer population.When buying a car, always get the biggest engine and the best headlights the manufacturer offers.The rest is optional.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 10:25:53 pm
content: I have to say I don't find the headlights on modern cars to be excessively glarey. There was a time maybe 5 years ago when modified HID lamps were more common - perhaps due to the relative durth of LED headlamps - and those were pretty bad. You could usually tell they were modified as they were VERY blue. I notice many fewer vehicles with those systems on the roads now. Perhaps police/MOT testers are more strict or they went out of fashion, who knows.The worst offenders are taller vehicles, but even then they're usually required to have a headlight adjustment system, and on most cars that's automatic now which keeps light controlled reasonably well.I wonder if was VW or Tesla that prompted NHTSA to change their stance on adaptive lights - both have included the systems in certain NA models but had it disabled for regulatory reasons, with a software update at the dealer, or over the air, being all that's required to include it.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 10:36:14 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on February 16, 2022, 10:11:15 pmLet us know when they finally stop mandating flat mirrors.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 10:53:42 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 13, 2022, 02:29:46 pmThe headlights on many cars are pathetic afterthoughts. We are in the UK, and have two cars. One car has halogen headlights, and one has fancy beam forming automated, and very bright, LED headlights. I think the car with haogen lights has pretty reasonable lights compared to most cars. However, the difference between driving these cars on roads outside a town is huge. Most major roads in the UK only have lighting around major junctions. We spend a large part of our driving time on roads without lighting. Basic bright LED headlights can be really annoying when a car comes towards you, but the beam forming ones don't shine in other driver's eyes. They very quickly adapt as soon as an oncoming car is detected, or as you approach the tail of cars going the same way as you.The NCAP people are now including lighting performance in the mix of things needed to get the maximum number of stars. They downgraded a lot of cars for poor headlight performance.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 08:11:19 am
content: Reading through the construction and use regulations I am not sure that the LED matrix head lamps are even legal here in the UK as the last paragraph states not more more than two dipped head lights, so unless two of those three clusters are switched of on dipped I cannot see how they comply.https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/schedule/4/madePART IIRequirements relating to optional dipped-beam headlamps1. In the case of a vehicle with three or more wheels having a maximum speed exceeding 25 mph first used on or after 1st April 1991, two and not more than two may be fitted and the only requirements prescribed by these Regulations in respect of any which are fitted are–(a)those specified in paragraphs 2(c), 4, 7, 10 and 12(a) of Part I,(b)that they are designed for a vehicle which is intended to be driven on the right-hand side of the road,(c)that they form a matched pair, and(d)that their electrical connections are such that not more than one pair of dipped-beam headlamps is capable of being illuminated at a time.2. In the case of any other vehicle, any number may be fitted and the only requirements prescribed by these Regulations in respect of any which are fitted are those specified in paragraphs 2(c), 4, 7 and 12(a) of Part I.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 09:19:09 am
content: Since when have dipped-beam lamps beenoptional?I am sure that is applicable to *extra lamps* that owners may have fitted to their vehicles as an aftermarket accessory (e.g. offroading vehicles often have these)Matrix lamps are definitely legal in the UK. This is because they are legal in the EU and despite Brexit we still remain aligned in many respects. There is absolutely no chance the big marques would be producing lamps that are knowingly illegal for UK vehicles.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 10:02:18 am
content: That's certainly how HIDs were made available on UK cars. The construction & use regs never referred to them, but DVLA could not refuse to register a vehicle that met the applicable EU regulations.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 02:42:25 pm
content: I think the "optional" refers to cars with for headlights and only two may be dipped beam. How long before Mr plod or someone else wakes up that we are out of the EU and the CU regs. are different from the EU ones. Government needs to do something to either bring them in line with EU regs or rule EU one out, as it is its a mess to say the least, with the DVSA registering EU compliant cars but the possibility that the same vehicle could fail the MOT for non compliance with CU regs.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 03:20:30 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 15, 2022, 09:20:32 pmThere's a reason for this.The cars are sacrificed to save the life and limbs of the drivers and passengers in the cars, which are the real "expensive bits."Those big steel bumpers we remember on our grandfathers' cars? They transferred the energy of the impact to the driver and passengers. Sure, the paint job was spared, but passengers were injured.Design changes like this is one reason why deaths per capita have gone down while the number of miles driven every year keeps going up. Drivers surely aren't better drivers.

author: andy2000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 03:54:02 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 15, 2022, 10:04:48 amIt's true that well designed modern headlights are better, but there are plenty of poorly designed headlights on the road that are worse than basic halogen lights. I've read report a few years ago about just how bad some modern headlights were. Hopefully things have improved since then.I drove a new Dodge rental car about 5 years ago, and I couldn't believe how bad the headlights were. They were HID and had a very sharp cutoff. The problem was the cutoff was too close to the car, and the light directly in front of the car was too bright. I could see absolutely nothing until it entered the illuminated area, and by then it would have been too late to react. It felt very unsafe compared to my own car with halogen lights, or other cars I've driven with well designed HID lights. I ended up swapping for a different car as soon as I could.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 06:52:06 pm
content: Quote from: andy2000 on February 17, 2022, 03:54:02 pmWithout a doubt.With that said, those are at best modern-ish. Remember that modern headlamps were only legalized in USA on Tuesday. Like 3 days ago. So the things this thread is talking about plain and simply do not exist in USA yet.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:25:03 am
content: Quote from: andy2000 on February 17, 2022, 03:54:02 pmI'm betting they were not aimed properly. Headlamp aiming is actually fairly critical, especially the ones that have that nice sharp cutoff, the dealer is supposed to set up and aim the lights but I think it's rare that they do.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 11:52:24 am
content: Headlight alignment is part of the MOT test in the UK, a legal requirement for cars over 3 years old that is performed every year. I have had a car fail its MOT for lamp alignment - I had installed the dipped halogen bulbs upside-down which completely changed the beam pattern. I wondered why I was flashed now and then on the roads! I blame the criminally stupid Peugeot design but really it was my idiocy as well for not noticing this earlier.It's perhaps for this reason that it's rarer (though it does happen) to be dazzled in the UK by another driver's headlights. Is the same true for the US - I know there are some states that don't even have mandatory inspections.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 12:44:27 pm
content: All the MOT stations I have been to have always adjusted the head lights if required rather than fail the vehicle they have also replaced bulbs for me as well, these often fail when they bump the vehicle ont the brake testers.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 02:00:01 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on February 18, 2022, 12:44:27 pmThis is actually prohibited under the terms of the MOT - you're not allowed to remove anything once under test.However, many garages get away with this by offering a free "pre-MOT inspection" that occurs 5 minutes before the MOT test!In my case the garage did re-test the vehicle for free after I had fiddled around and refitted the lamps correctly. It seems Peugeot designed the 206 around the air conditioning compressor and then bolted the rest of the car to it, as changing the left-hand lamp was always a right faff.

author: andy2000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 03:40:07 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 18, 2022, 05:25:03 amIt's certainly possible they weren't aimed properly, or something else was wrong, but it was a nearly new car. I mentioned it as an example of why some people might have a poor opinion of sharp cutoff HID headlights. If aiming is that critical, then I'm wiling to bet there are a LOT of these cars on the road with dangerously ineffective lights.If the headlights are so bright they need an ultra sharp cutoff to avoid blinding other drivers, then I'd rather have slightly dimmer lights with a wider field of view. I found that with my eyes adjusted to the extremely bright light immediately in front, it made seeing anything in the shadows even harder.For the record, I have driver other cars with HID headlights without issue. I can see how the lights in this Dodge might have seemed great on a test drive since they were very bright, but in actual traffic they were sorely inadequate.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 04:20:10 pm
content: Already thought before entering "German for sure, Merc or BMW".Wasn't wrong!A friend has a 2006 BMW and even the battery must be coded in the ecu (Well, just a "Reset battery" option, but must be done using a diagnostic cable), the damn thing notices the change in the battery capacity!

author: TheWelly888
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:00:46 pm
content: I hate changing headlight bulbs in the cold dark and wet, fiddling with sharp pieces of stamped steel. My next car will have LED headlights!

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:03:04 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 18, 2022, 02:00:01 pmIndeed, but most will deal with it smoothly - mine polished the headlights on my old car mid-test after failing them, so they could immediately retest. It took 30 seconds or so to get them to a passing standard on a 15 year old car.Quote from: DavidAlfa on February 18, 2022, 04:20:10 pmThat's because the damn thing doesn't float the battery but charges it only occasionally to save you a dribble of fuel (and get you to replace your battery more regularly.. at one of their dealers, preferably).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 06:26:09 pm
content: Quote from: TheWelly888 on February 18, 2022, 05:00:46 pmWhat makes them real fun to change is when you have a model that requires replacement of the bulbs though the mud encrusted wheel arch.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 07:37:19 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 18, 2022, 06:26:09 pm*cough* Renault Megane ... *cough* ....Also some models of Renault Clio are a major pain because unless your hands are child-sized, there is literally no way to get at the bulb on the left front side because there is the AC unit in the way. The official procedure is to dismantle the entire front of the car to get at the headlight assembly ...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 07:51:19 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on February 18, 2022, 07:37:19 pmThere are many cars where things like an AC or power steering pump were obviously not part of the original plan, and obstruct things badly. There are also quite a few cars where the designers were apparently unaware that many people drive on the other side of the road, and the car would be sold in those markets.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 07:53:04 pm
content: Quite a lot of vehicles cannot have their main beams serviced without removing the headlight assembly and/or the bumper and other front structure.. They simply don't care - the lamps are reliable enough that the number of failures they have to deal with at their expense are noise, and they love it when you come pay labour for them to do it for you.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 10:28:43 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 18, 2022, 07:53:04 pmThat's maybe true for the modern HID or LED headlights but certainly wasn't the case for the above-mentioned Renaults and isn't the case for many especially small city cars (but not only). Both Clio & Megane used normal halogen bulbs and both were quite well known for blowing them often due to the "classic Renault" (i.e. glitchy and unreliable) electric system. I have owned a Clio and my colleague had a Megane - both great cars. When the electrics worked.The electric glitches you could get there were absolutely crazy - dashboard and radio that didn't work in the cold until you reset the radio and the computer by pulling a fuse or disconnecting the battery (and you couldn't even turn the car off either until you did so - it just remained on), doors unlocking while moving, doors refusing to unlock, rear hatch unlocking and flying open while I was going 130 on the motorway, the infamous keyless ignition system, many of these cars having shorts in the various wiring harnesses due to water ingress, making them blink like christmas trees whenever the turn indicators were turned on ... Most of this was due to poor quality wiring harnesses and moisture getting where it shouldn't have.Quote from: coppice on February 18, 2022, 07:51:19 pmYes, that was very much the case for at least the Clio - the base model didn't have AC and there was no problem with bulb access. Later models got the AC but the engine compartment under the hood remained more-or-less the same, only the external shape of the body panels has been tweaked between facelifts a little. So between the AC unit and the battery there was no space left for fitting an average sized hand to replace a blown bulb. And given that this was on the left (driver) side, if you blew it while on the road, the car was illegal to drive like that ...Newer Megane (without the "broken back" rear door) doesn't have this wheel well circus-level bulb access anymore but then has "acquired" this uber-cramped engine compartment in exchange ...

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 09:11:00 pm
content: I sometimes find the brightness of the halogens in my old SAAB to be a bit dim.And feel a bit jealous when i see some newer car with LED's as they light up the road much better.Had to change the H4's in the headlights and, fortunately, it is super easy in this car.I just took the dust cap off the housing and the bulb was right there ready to be pulled out.One big advantage my halogens have over LED's is that they generate enough heat to melt the snow and ice off the headlight during winterMy biggest problem with newer headlights is the sharp cut-off, because as newer cars go over bumps the beam jumps up and down and as a result can seem like they're flashing their high beams.And since flashing high beams is a part of the way drivers communicate on the road it can be a distraction.Halogen headlights tend to be pretty big. The headlights in my SAAB are absolutely huge, yet most of the space inside is taken up by air.An advantage i see for the LED's is that they can be made to be much more compact.Newer high-tech headlights (what we locally call "projectors" or "lasers") are often very pricey and a popular item to have stolen, especially if you drive a BMW.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2022, 02:32:04 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on February 17, 2022, 03:20:30 pmMaybe you missed the 30 years or so between the big rigidly mounted steel bumpers and the expensive painted bodywork that is in place of bumpers on modern cars. My cars have heavy duty bumpers mounted on shock absorbers that can compress a good 6 inches to absorb impacts. They are aluminum and covered with a heavy duty un-painted and easily replaceable plastic skin. The crumple zones are there too, and I had the unfortunate opportunity to try them out on one occasion. More minor impacts are absorbed by the bumpers without damage though.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2022, 03:25:59 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 06, 2022, 02:32:04 amThe Volvo you showed was far ahead of its competition for crash safety when it was launched in the 1980s. It would crush most other cars in an impact, while its occupants walked away. However, the standard of crash protection has progressed a lot. Even a small modern car does very well in an impact with that Volvo, and in some glancing impacts, and side impacts will do better than the Volvo. Visually comparing that 1980s Volvo with my new V90, the old one kinda looks a lot more robust. However, crash the two into each other, and I could walk away while you die.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2022, 04:17:11 am
content: I remember being rear-ended by a VW Jetta while driving a rented Buick LeSabre in around 2005. The Jetta had to be towed... radiator sprung a leak. ...while the Buick... you literally could not tell it had been in a crash, not even a scratch in the painted bumper. Looking underneath, I saw why - a big aluminum bumper with shock absorbers hidden under the painted flexible bumper. I was pretty impressed with General Motors that day!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2022, 06:19:38 pm
content: QuoteI had someone run into the back of my car. Trashed their headlights and put a dent in the bonnet. My rear end looked OK but I took it into a garage anyway to check, and the chap just gave the back an almighty kick and said "They take a huge bang before being damaged". It's a Golf with no apparent bumber, but having taken it off I can say it's shell over the crumble-zone bodywork.I wonder if it's part of NCAP, perhap about taking off pedestrians legs? The bumpers on your motor are fine, but when a typical rear-ender occurs the back of yours is up in the air and the front of theirs is dragging the ground, so the impacts aren't where you'd expect when looking at a static car. Perhaps they reason that a prang that will damage the shell-as-bumper would do for your bodywork anyway, so might as well make it look nice.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2022, 06:25:50 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 06, 2022, 06:19:38 pmPedestrian safety is exactly why the exterior bodywork is softer today. It turns out you can't trust people with upwards of a tonne of metal and have to take measures to protect others from them.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2022, 08:18:01 pm
content: don't get scared of optics engineering, its the future

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 05:51:08 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 06, 2022, 03:25:59 amMaybe so, but there was a point reached where in my mind cars were "safe enough" and my old Volvos are at that point. Sure some modern cars are safer, but I am perfectly willing to sacrifice some safety for a bit more robustness in minor collisions. The best way to survive an accident is to avoid getting in one, and the most important aspect in that is sat between the seat and the steering wheel. There is no way for a car to be 100% safe, there is always a risk of injury or death in a collision, some people have different comfort levels in terms of risk, but as long as a person can legally buy a motorcycle and ride it on public roads, the argument that some extreme level of safety must be mandated is invalid. If you want a very safe car and don't mind that a minor collision will cause thousands of dollars in damage or even total it then buy one that meets your needs. I want a car that can take a bit of abuse and keep going, while still being reasonably safe.For what it's worth, the Volvo in the picture was rear ended by a tanker semi (lorry) while I was stopped in traffic on the freeway. It was an incredibly violent collision that knocked me forward a good distance, spun me around and then the still moving truck slammed into my passenger side and bulldozed my car a few hundred feet sideways before finally stopping. I walked away shaken but without so much as a scratch or bruise and the interior of the car was not deformed. That is proof enough in my mind that it is safe enough. It survived several far more minor rear endings with no more than small scuffs on the (unpainted) bumper skin, the shock mounted bumper absorbed the impact and protected the painted bodywork, exactly as it should be. There is no reason other than style trends to not have an unpainted and durable impact absorbing area to prevent minor bumps from causing major damage.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 06:11:42 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 30, 2022, 05:51:08 pmIf you had several impacts in that Volvo and survived, I guess it has proven the car is pretty safe, but I'm really wondering about how safe your driving might be.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 06:23:34 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 30, 2022, 06:11:42 pmEvery single time I have been hit I was not moving so I don't really see how my driving comes into play with any of them. Literally every one of them I was either stopped at a red light or stopped in traffic and BANG. Actually I take that back, there was one incident where a bicycle shot out of a parking lot right in front of me and I had to slam on my brakes, but even with that the gal that hit me was obviously following too close or not paying attention. I might jinx myself by saying this but in ~25 years of driving I have never hit anything, never caused an accident, never even gotten a ticket. I was pulled over for speeding exactly once and that was ~17 years ago. He told me to slow down and sent me on my way.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 06:54:35 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 30, 2022, 05:51:08 pmPedestrians disagree.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 06:56:59 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 30, 2022, 06:54:35 pmWhy would they? In the 80s the best cars for protecting themselves against bumps, like the Volvo 740, were also the best at minimising harm to pedestrians.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 07:13:36 pm
content: Sorry when I not read everything but could such LED Modules shown in the Video use for other purpose like light the Garden or so? I dont know how much Tech is in the Module them self from prevent them to turn on when the get the right Voltage?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 08:12:40 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 30, 2022, 06:56:59 pmCompared to a modern vehicle?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 09:20:16 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 30, 2022, 08:12:40 pmI see no reason why improving a car's self protection should conflict with making them safer for pedestrians. The growth of SUVs, with their tall flat fronts, has made cars more like battering rams hitting pedestrians.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 10:40:27 pm
content: Modern cars are specifically designed with pedestrian safety in mind. Not only do you have camera-based ADAS systems which can intervene below 30 mph (the most common scenario a pedestrian is encountered in), but you have the front crash beam which is deliberately designed to push the pedestrian onto the bonnet (by scooping them in the legs!) which then pops up prior to their head impacting the bonnet. And the most harmful injury is the neck/head injuries from the head striking the bonnet. Leg injuries can heal, but brain damage rarely does.There's absolutely no way that a Volvo built in the 80's is safer than a car made today with respect to pedestrian safety.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 11:02:38 pm
content: Frankly I don't care about pedestrian safety. I'll stay off of the sidewalks, people should stay out of the road. If everyone just watched where they were going and paid attention this wouldn't be such an issue. The goal should be to not hit pedestrians, not to try to make cars less likely to injure them when they do hit.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 11:10:06 pm
content: QuoteThen why should anyone care about you or your car?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 11:14:29 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 30, 2022, 11:10:06 pmI can only assume that they don't. I pay attention when I drive though, I have never hit anything, I've only had people hit me. I would prefer cars to be getting lighter and smaller so as to cause less damage in collision but quite the opposite is true. I share the road mostly with huge heavy behemoths that cause massive damage in a collision. So I'm not sure what the point is here exactly. I've never put myself in a position where (my) pedestrian safety is an issue, I stay out of the street and look out for myself.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 11:27:10 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 30, 2022, 10:40:27 pmNow who would make a claim like that? This is the classic kind of bogus argument they teach you about in debating classes, and its the hallmark of a really slimy person.An 80s Volvo was really good for pedestrian impacts. It was way ahead of its time, and most modern cars are not massively better. I suspect many of these tall flat fronted SUVs are probably worse. All cars tend to have a higher bonnet line than 30 years ago, and look more like rams than things that will scoop up a pedestrian. I'd like to see some serious data about that.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 11:28:58 pm
content: QuoteNo-one is perfect. In other fields you would be only too happy to take precautions just-in-case, and mostly because it's you that's at risk. It's a bit damning to effectively say it's someone elses tough shit if you ever make a mistake. Or they make a mistake and you made matters worse than they should have been.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 11:56:43 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 30, 2022, 09:20:16 pmJumping over the argument there:Quote from: Monkeh on March 30, 2022, 06:54:35 pmDeforming bumpers and bonnets are the tradeoff, safer for pedestrians, more likely to need replacing in a minor collision.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 12:02:26 am
content: Clearly we just need to make the bumpers out of soft foam, and require pedestrians to be padded in sumo suits.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 12:06:04 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 30, 2022, 05:51:08 pmQuote from: james_s on March 30, 2022, 11:02:38 pmBut you wanted a car that is better at surviving collisions? why do you need that if you never run into anything?Ahh, other cars run into you and thats completely normal and needs protecting against, but magically pedestrians, cyclists, and motor cyclists should keep away from you.Quote from: james_s on March 30, 2022, 11:02:38 pmExcept pedestrian/car collisions are not always pedestrian fault, what about the careful pedestrians? they dont deserve safety? Also not all car drivers are you. So you want a special car for "better" drivers. Good luck with those economies of scale, they're already available and you won't like the prices. The road and road-related area is shared with vehicles and pedestrians, they interact often, accidents happen.Perhaps you only be allowed to drive your special vehicle on completely segregated roads with zero pedestrians..... since you have no regard for them and think they should keep out of the way. They probably think the same in return, you should be somewhere else.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 12:08:29 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 30, 2022, 11:28:58 pmI'll be happily strictly liable for any damage I cause to cars as a pedestrian, if they accept the same in return (watch the insurance companies start taking an interest in these sorts of vehicle details). Until then these enforced safety measures are a win for society.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 12:23:00 am
content: Quote from: coppice on March 30, 2022, 11:27:10 pmExcept a comparable market with the Volvo XC60 (not a small vehicle) has a more rounded front and almost identical impact point as your 740 example. Every single aspect of their front designs is optimised in the never vehicle to reduce the forces in the current safety tests, for pedestrians: Head Impact (rounded sloped bonnet and deformation), Upper Leg Impact (rounded impact point below hip), Lower Leg Impact (no protruding bumper).Pedestrian tests go back to the late 90's, and Volvo were pretty average:https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/latest-safety-ratings/en/results/volvo/s40/15475

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 12:28:39 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 30, 2022, 11:28:58 pmHence strict liability being an interesting perspective, you choose to drive a car that is more dangerous, then you can pay for any consequences.I submit to your honour that if the defendant had walked to the shops any resulting collision would have been of trivial consequence, but they chose to transport in a two ton sharp metal box which horribly injured me.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 01:12:20 am
content: Quote from: Someone on March 31, 2022, 12:28:39 amIt already is. If you injure or kill somebody you are held responsible, if it is done through negligence you can be charged with vehicular manslaughter, it's a serious crime.I expect the same of others as they expect of me. I pay attention to what I'm doing and I try not to hit people when I'm driving. As a pedestrian I pay attention to where I am and try to stay out of the path of vehicles. This is really not that hard, no matter how much we mandate ugliness in cars in the name of pedestrian safety it is still far better to focus that energy on preventing collisions. If people would just put their damn mobile phones down and watch where they're going, whether driving or walking it would go a long way toward reducing the number of injuries and deaths. Instead we have the tail trying to wag the dog, adding all sorts of band-aids on top of the symptom rather than focusing on the cause. The vast majority of vehicle-pedestrian collisions are very easily prevented. They are the result of people simply not paying attention.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 01:15:50 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 30, 2022, 11:28:58 pmNothing is perfect, ever, life is full of risks, people die every single day, it is just a fact. Practical issues aside, I would be willing to wager that installing a mobile phone jammer in a car would do more to help pedestrian safety than installing rounded bumpers and a sloping hood. It's all kind of moot anyway with the massive SUVs that everyone is driving now. It doesn't matter what shape you make the front when the hood is practically at shoulder height.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 03:24:11 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 31, 2022, 01:12:20 amExcept when you look at what actually happens, drivers kill or injure pedestrians and insurance covers it (mandatory/public insurance in many/most countries). They don't see the individual cost of their choices as its averaged across the population, just as mandatory safety requirements are pushed onto that same population. We don't have radically different costs for insurance based on how "good" the driver is or how safe their vehicle is, and if it does go to court a driver isnt grilled on their choice to buy/drive a "truck" vs a small city car, they get treated the same.Real world:Quote from:https://revealnews.org/article/bay-area-drivers-who-kill-pedestrians-rarely-face-punishment-analysis-finds/Caught for drink driving (or speeding) thats an automatic fine/suspension in many jurisdictions despite being a victimless crime, but kill someone, meh they'll get over it.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 07:48:24 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 30, 2022, 11:02:38 pmWhat about children? The blind? Or just people who are distracted? The fact is, despite the best efforts of drivers and pedestrians, there are about 300,000 pedestrian deaths per year.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 06:49:10 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on March 31, 2022, 12:23:00 amDepends which XC60 you are looking at. The front of the older one, that was replace in 2017, has a lowish front edge to the bonnet, and is very much rolled off. The newer one has a much higher and flatter front. With a 740 the first point of impact is the big black bumper, and as they pushed the pedestrian over they meet a sloped off bonnet which will catch them. The smaller XC40 has an even higher bonnet and squarer front than the XC60 or XC90. Its so tall its the total height of a small child, and will hit one like a battering ram. Besides safety issues, its not clear to me how these newer designs achieve decent results in drag tests.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 10:34:02 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 31, 2022, 06:49:10 pmI did look at the currently available one (which scores better euroncap pedestrian safety than the older lower/rounder looking model) with the scale comparison attached below. Panel give/softness and "catching" the pedestrian becomes the game, which these modern cars do better.Also, if you want to go like for like against a 740 that would be something like a Volvo V60, rather than a soft roader. But the current V60 model does slightlyworseon the euroncap pedestrian safety measure than the current XC60 !

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2022, 11:20:51 am
content: Quote from: Someone on March 31, 2022, 03:24:11 amIs it really victimless, though? Speeders/drinkers are subjecting others to increased risk.... so it is only victimless until it isn't?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2022, 01:44:16 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 02, 2022, 11:20:51 amYes, victimless until it isnt, but even with the victim obvious, fault found, why do car vs pedestrian collisions have so few penalties applied?Answer... speeding/drink driving is cheap/easy to prove and prosecute, so gets aggressively targeted for enforcement and penalties. Sad but true.Australian (state of Victoria) example, several victimless crimes:25km/h over the speed limit (in any speed zone) $500 fine and mandatory 3 month license suspension, unable to be appealed or waived on hardship grounds etc.Failing to stop at a school children's pedestrian crossing when people are on the crossing, $454 fineFailing to give way (or stop if required) at a level crossing, $909 Finewon't someone think of thechildrentrains!One of those is an immediate and present danger to other (vulnerable) road users, but has the smallest fine! Train vs car, train wins. Car vs child.....

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2022, 01:54:59 pm
content: QuoteIt's not often a car mows down a pedestrian (at least, when they do the penalty tends to significant and the court case very public). More often, I suspect, the pedestrian gets in the way of the car. While peds have right of way over cars, physics says peds can get out of the way easier, so there's a limit to how much stupidity they can get away with.A better question may be why cyclists get away with so much law breaking. Mostly that's 'victim-less' but only because peds can jump out of the way easier. Quite often on my walks around here I find myself stepping into the road so a bloody cyclist can zoom by on the footpath.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2022, 02:55:09 pm
content: Interesting , but has little to do with head light design.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2022, 11:26:01 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 02, 2022, 01:54:59 pmI shall simply refer you right back to the reference you separated that quote from:Quote from: Someone on March 31, 2022, 03:24:11 amThose are the cases of people killing pedestrians because of their driving, being at fault, and charged for some offence.Deaths, not injuries, not near misses, cases of people being killed.The approximately 50% of pedestrian deaths that could not attribute fault to the driver(s), removed from the above.Where fault could be attributed to the driver 60% had no action taken against them. I see you've killed a pedestrian and were at fault, please dont do it again.Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 02, 2022, 01:54:59 pmProbably because the road safety figures show that cyclists running into things cause so little damage/injury/deaths compared to other vehicles? Orders of magnitude less.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 12:39:12 am
content: QuoteI didn't separate the quote from the bit you highlight - you did, as you show in that quote!Nevertheless, unless we want every post to quote everything that went before, some trimming is necessary. One has to assume that readers of the thread have, well, read the thread so know what it's about and what went before. The particular thing that I am commenting on is what I quote. That will necessarily skip a lot of history, but it is all there in the thread, all pre-read, all known. Nothing is being deliberately left out to obscure anything - if I meant to do that I wouldn't have quote anything at all.QuoteOK.QuoteWell, cyclists do kill pedestrians, and I suspect that mostly cyclists are hit'n'run and untraceable. However, the point is that they break the law, and that's the actual arbiter of these things.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 02:01:25 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 03, 2022, 12:39:12 amYou're tying to join things that are not equivalent: yes cyclists have and will kill pedestrians (at a tiny rate compared to cars, even when accounting for differing rates of exposure/interaction). But what rate are they prosecuted at for those occurrences? higher or lower than car drivers?You said:Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 02, 2022, 01:54:59 pmWhich was already shown to be incorrect by the quote you left out of your reply. It happens often, and most drivers dont receive significant penalties. Just look at the numbers:https://www.bts.gov/content/transportation-fatalities-mode2020: US 38,680 road deaths, 16% of which were pedestrians!https://revealnews.org/article/bay-area-drivers-who-kill-pedestrians-rarely-face-punishment-analysis-finds/Most drivers are not charged even if at fault (already quoted in this thread for those who cant be bothered to read links).Or, are you trying to argue rates of prosecution for victimless crimes by car drivers and cyclists should be equally high? (and/or equally severe?) Which does not make sense when the outcomes/results of those different modes of transport are so different. Most jurisdictions have lower fines/penalties for victimless crimes committed by cyclists compared to cars, which in turn have lower fines/penalties compared to heavy vehicles. Acknowledging the differing risks.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 07:28:57 am
content: Quote from: trevers on February 14, 2022, 07:40:08 pmYou can add automatic versus manual transmission to that list these days. I know there are purists out there who will argue that manual transmissions give them "greater control" over the vehicle, which is just bollocks in my eyes, but the fact remains, a well designed modern automatic transmission is better than old manual boxes in every way, including fuel economy.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 09:34:50 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 03, 2022, 07:28:57 amIndeed. I was helping my fiancé prepare for her driving test recently, and there's a great deal in the theory test that is completely irrelevant to anyone who doesn't drive a manual -- and really does not make me miss them! "Select a low gear going down hill", "use the engine for braking", "use a higher gear in snow", "careful when you downshift to avoid damage to the engine" etc. She's been learning in my hybrid, it's almost too easy. Electronic parking brake, hill hold, regen braking, cruise control, and ridiculously easy to park on electric-only mode as you can move it about 1 cm at a time if you need to.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 11:04:02 am
content: QuoteDoesn't tell us anything we want to know. Yes, it gives absolute numbers but doesn't say how or why they occured. The explanation even cautions against comparing across categories.QuoteI am saying that cyclist naughtiness is no less of a victimless crime than drink-driving, and that the chance of a cyclist being prosecuted for breaking the law is much lower than for a car driver.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 12:58:09 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 03, 2022, 07:28:57 amI have yet to see one automatic transmission that doesn't add at least 0.5l/100kmif you can kindly suggest which you think are better than manual stick in every wayincludingfuel economy i'll try and make some tests... i know for sure it's not those from VAG or FCA (thought they have better driving profiles in alfa romeo). I hear mixed reports from clients on mercedes but i don't have direct experience so i think in the end it's just a matter of getting used to things regarding manual vs automatic.Though while we're at it, cars already have tilt sensors so they should know they don't have to keep going to a higher gear when on a steep ascent or descent. Even in """manual""" at some point they take over, screw that i'll be a grumpy stick driver for as long as i can.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 01:14:42 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 03, 2022, 07:28:57 amIn daily use a good automatic performs better, but the manual version of a car is usually cheaper to buy. There are some weird exceptions with expensive sports cars, where the automatic is cheaper, but they are minor exceptions.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 02:31:39 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 03, 2022, 07:28:57 amThey're more predictable - an auto requires a little learning curve as to when it shifts or you can get some surprises. Also, they teach you to think ahead. Otherwise, most people are incapable of driving manuals efficiently, so apart from reliability (where they almost always win), there's really no advantage.Quote from: JPortici on April 03, 2022, 12:58:09 pmDCTs are quite capable of being more efficient than manuals in the hands of the average driver - none of the usual auto losses, and you take the incompetent person out of the loop (and replace them with engineers who don't drive real roads, but that's another argument).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 04:30:19 pm
content: An automatic dual-clutch transmission is just as efficient as a manual transmission. Arguably it is even more efficient because it can swap gears more quickly due to the built-in rev-matching, which leads to less time when the clutch is slipping or when no power is applied (fuel burn but with no output.) That's especially important for city driving, but when on the highway roughly all automatic and manual transmissions behave similarly, due to most modern automatic transmissions having a lockout for the torque converter.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 07:21:02 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on April 03, 2022, 12:58:09 pmThen you haven’t looked at cars in averylong time, and/or haven’t looked carefully enough.It’s honestly kind of hard to compare with most cars, because they often don’t let you choose the transmission without also changing a bunch of other stuff at the same time, whose weight differences invalidate the transmission comparison.But for example, in the BMW 1 series, where you actually can choose multiple engines and transmissions independently, only on the 116d does the manual transmissionpotentiallysave fuel. And I say potentially, because only one end of the consumption range changed, and only by 0.1L/100km. On every other engine type, choosing automatic either has no effect whatsoever, orreducesfuel consumption.This is how it’s been for many years now.The reason manual transmissions used to be so much more efficient in the past is because they had more gears than automatics. (E.g. in the 80s, a compact car might have a 5-speed manual, but only a 3-speed automatic.) But we now generally have the same number of gears in an automatic (6 being really common now), and a smart computer deciding when to switch. That computer will, on average, dobetterat switching gears than an average driver.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 07:25:24 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 03, 2022, 02:31:39 pmWhat a silly statement.Of coursethey drive on real roads. But if they programmed the transmission ECU to behave the way they’d like, the car would never meet its emissions and fuel efficiency targets. And that’s why we have the switch to choose between eco, standard, and sport modes: the first one for advertisements, the second as a happy compromise, and the third “this is how we’d like it to behave if fuel consumption were no object”.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 07:56:44 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 03, 2022, 07:25:24 pmI was not suggesting they don't feel good - rather that they make inferior choices for fuel efficiency when confronted with real world hills, not idealised test tracks and driving around Heathrow airport. However, they're still far better than the average driver.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 08:14:55 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 03, 2022, 07:21:02 pmThis is really important. On my Golf, doing 70 mph (~120 km/h) up a modestly steep hill the transmission shifts from 6th to 5th. You can happily manually switch it back to 6th and the car runs fine, but the fuel consumption is noticeably higher (~5-10%).Most drivers would say in 6th because the "highest possible gear is usually the best for fuel economy" in car mythology, but of course the ECU has a precise mapping of fuel burn vs torque vs engine speed, and it knows it can still provide the required torque in that gear whilst lowering fuel burn, despite increasing engine RPM.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 09:03:54 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 03, 2022, 07:56:44 pmSorry, can you clarify what you’re actually claiming? “Inferior choices” doesn’t tell me anything, since what’s “inferior” depends on what you’re optimizing for.Just state in plain English what you think they’re doing wrong.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 09:05:34 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 03, 2022, 09:03:54 pmWas 'fuel efficiency' not clear? Behaviour I've encountered includes both unnecessary low gear usage and holding on to a high gear far too long, resulting in violent downshifts to maintain any sort of reasonable speed.Anyway, it's my opinion that they're not as well optimized for terrain I have to deal with as some think. I do not have six pages of precise data to back it up, so sorry.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 09:08:31 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 03, 2022, 04:30:19 pmA modern torque converter transmission is just as efficient as a DCT at speed, because they lock up the transmission, bypassing the torque converter. Both tend to be more efficient than a manual at speed, because they have more gears to choose from. A manual with 8 or more gears would be pretty tedious to use, but its now normal for automatics.Around town torque converter automatics have always performed well. The losses in the torque converter are offset by the narrow band CVT like nature of a torque converter automatic, filling in between actual gear ratios.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 09:13:06 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 03, 2022, 09:05:34 pmAny issues with uphill driving respond well to kickdown. I find the main annoyance with modern automatics on hills, is when going down hill. The car detects its inclination, and often changes down to apply engine braking on a steep downward slope, but it can be rather quirky. I usually apply some manual nudging of the gearing in such conditions.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 09:44:58 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 03, 2022, 09:05:34 pmI'd be curious what automatics you've been driving.Certainly, my Golf's automatic really hates the low gears. At 30 mph it's often in 4th or 5th, and above 40-50 mph it's pretty keen to get into 6th. It often even starts off in 2nd if you're on a slight downhill slope (the gearbox has an angle sensor; it's reported in the diagnostics data.) In some situations, it'll do that if the 1st gear clutch is getting too warm, for instance lots of city driving, with a corresponding boost to engine rpm to make the start in 2nd less aggressive. I've never had it happen, but apparently if one of the clutches totally fails, then it'll just start using the alternate one in a limp-home mode fashion with limited power.On a side note, it's quite interesting to see how the VW gearbox manages clutch slippage. I have had a few instances where the car began to judder ever-so-slightly at low speeds, indicating it's slipping the clutch a bit too little, but after doing this for more than a few moments, it learns pretty quickly where the new bite point is. Bite points are calculated with a kind of multi-point linear mapping, so it has a point for (e.g.) 10Nm, 20Nm and 50Nm as well as fully engaged. During parking maneuvers, the engine acts as a constant torque source, with the clutch slipping as needed. If you apply the brakes during operation, it seamlessly begins to withdraw the clutch to balance the brake, engine and clutch forces to reduce the output torque to the user's request.I know it's totally obsolete for electric vehicles (and indeed, when my car is in the fully-electric mode, any time the battery has more than the minimum-state-of-charge, it does not do any of this complex behaviour, instead, it uses only the electric motor with the clutches fully closed.) But, you really do have to appreciate the engineering required to make an ICE-powertrain behave as smoothly as it does.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2022, 01:08:07 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 03, 2022, 07:28:57 amThe cost to maintain and repair a modern automatic transmission greatly exceeds same for a manual transmission. We had a 2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDI (which was later bought back by VW) and it was offered in a six-speed manual and a fancy automatic. The scheduled maintenance for the automatic was easily over $1,000.For standard maintenance, not repair.Now everyone knows there's a VW tax because every service is expensive, but that was out of line. That was one reason for buying the manual. The other reason is pure preference.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2022, 07:27:11 am
content: That is out of line. Maybe VW America has different service pricing and schedules.The service schedule for the DSG box in my car is 40,000 miles / 4 year DSG oil change. At a main dealer that's £320 (~$420USD) but at any good independent it's as little as £200. Or, you can do yourself pretty easily, though it will require a diagnostic tool (~£100) to activate the gearbox pump so you can totally drain the old oil.The big expense is the gearbox oil. VW recommend a type that is used only for a few other models, and since it is used to lubricate the solenoids and provides the wet-clutch interface, I'm therefore skeptical about replacing it with traditional ATF. 6 litres of the stuff will cost £140, most of the cost of the service...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2022, 05:27:31 pm
content: In USA, German cars are treated as semi-luxury vehicles (and the manufacturers often encourage this by only offering higher end configurations in USA), with parts and service being far more expensive than they should be. :/

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2022, 09:54:06 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 05, 2022, 05:27:31 pmAlongside an outdated culture in the US to change oil very often:Quote from:https://www.aaa.com/autorepair/articles/how-often-should-you-change-engine-oil"might go as far" (with a qualifier to limit the applicability) vs manufacturer warrants it will go at least that far, bordering on misleading. Synthetic motor oil? same price as the rest here.European cars tend to cluster their oil intervals at the higher end 10,000km or 20,000km and 1-2 years between oil change, while some manufacturers like Subaru say every 6 months!

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 12:22:57 am
content: Quote from: Someone on April 05, 2022, 09:54:06 pmSome mechanics do profess the benefits of regular oil changes. Even if they are in the servicing industry, the point they make is neither the interval nor the miles driven is entirely precise. It depends on the condition of the oil itself. When it's time, it's time.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 01:48:43 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on April 06, 2022, 12:22:57 amCadogan is usually immaculately accurate on automotive topics, but actually stumbles a little on this one. Servicing periods do have a tolerance/limit to them, and its not usually not the publicly stated service interval (which he says is a hard absolute maximum limit). Like I point out in the quote above, a little emotional sleight of hand pushes people to replace their oil more frequently than the manufacturer actually recommends. Going on into "well its actually more flexible and depends on the specific history/operation of the vehicle" is trying to take a bet both ways.Time limits: largely humidity absorption in these situations, but also material outgassing/absorption. Both dependent on temperature. Some manufacturers vary these by region where the car is sold.Distance limits: accumulation of byproducts/wear/contamination. Set by worst warrantable conditions (go worse and they say it was abuse of the vehicle, example: stop-start batteries in taxis/courier vehicles).Cadogan discusses a stop/start short distance car driven many times a day as far more damaged over distance travelled than a grand cruiser only doing the occasional country drive, but to keep warranties safe the oil is usually still mandated replacement on schedule. Some newer cars are accumulating "wear" on the oil at differing rates for different conditions and bring up the oil change indicator at a different rate. DPFs on Subaru diesels are very picky about contamination (again mentioned in the video) but they are still an accumulated damage, so its only a statistical prolonging of life by sticking to the set schedule. Its not guaranteed to get a certain life, everything in modern automotive is engineered to last sufficiently long for warranty/consumer protection. Many approximations and guesses are involved, its not a hard limit.Plenty of vehicles (treated carefully/well) will be seeing little to no degradation by going over the set time limits, but when testing for the physical limits is more expensive than replacement, things just get replaced. Heavy vehicles with huge volumes of oil are economic to test for life extension, small cars not so much (good luck getting appropriate test limits for a light vehicle out of the manufacturer).Also much of the limits are set by the manufacturer before the car is released (rarely do they update them after sale), which for new designs might have very little historic data to back it up. Once a design has been out in the wild for a decade the mechanics start to see patterns of what was either too lax or too restrictive. I know a specialist car mechanic who adjusts the schedules away from the factory figures, some go longer, some go shorter. But only once they are out of manufacturer warranty. The same engine model, with the same line item service parts can see different schedules in later facelifts or models of car (again up or down). Do I watch those things and change the service intervals based on the new data, absolutely! Will the manufacturer suggest you change? No.* blimey, the forum aggressively embeds youtube links!

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 03:39:18 am
content: Quote from: Someone on April 06, 2022, 01:48:43 amIt's a vid from 2018 and I noticed the comments are turned off so the inevitable pie-chucking must have ensued.QuoteI do kinda sorta like the Subaru attitude: We put the effort into engineering a fine engine. You, the owner can make the effort to keep it that way.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 08:08:06 am
content: I'm not clear on how it works, but my Golf has an 'oil quality indicator'. Last I checked after a service it read 'Good'.I notice that when it reads 'Acceptable' (I have never got it to read 'Poor') the engine runs on the cold cycle much longer - i.e. the first start will not allow the engine to shut down for a good 2-3 minutes, whereas 'Good' oil will reduce that to 30 seconds.Perhaps it's just based on time-since-service, but given it's a hybrid, I wonder if there is some way to meter the quality of the oil, like the time required for oil pressure to build up on start, or if there's a turbidity sensor somewhere in the pan.As you say @Someone it's all based on statistics, I can floor my car from cold and get the 148hp engine to produce full output, but I would be an idiot to do that... I suspect if I did that every morning, the car would never meet its warranty limits, but then again, most people don't drive like that.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 10:43:42 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 06, 2022, 08:08:06 amThere might be something more complex in newer cars, but the "basics" have been around for a while, far beyond just counting cold starts:"Self-Study Programme 224 Service Interval Extension"http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_224.pdfEstimating remaining life from: fuel consumption, time @ temperature accumulation, and distance. Then producing some state estimators for the physical characteristics of the oil (not actually measured in the car) and predicting life from that.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 04:54:30 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 06, 2022, 08:08:06 amMy Honda Fit and CR-V hybrid both have "oil life" indicators, given in percent. The lifetime doesn't correlate with mileage, as far as I can tell, and the reading I've done says that the lifetime is a function of many variables including temperature, type of driving (city vs highway) and length of trips. Daytime desert driving in 46ºC outside temperatures surely has an effect on oil life. Anyway, when the indicator hits 5% I make a mental note to call my local independent garage for the service.I've had the CR-V for nearly a year (I don't recall the mileage offhand) and the indicator just flashed 15% lifetime remaining.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 05:01:46 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 05, 2022, 07:27:11 amHere in the US, the service departments are the big moneymakers for dealerships. This is why dealers fight to keep service information out of the hands of independent garages and car owners.But, now that I have thought about it: yes, the service interval for the DSG was 40,000 miles or 4 years. The dealer offered free oil change services for the first three years, and then the fourth year would be that $1,000 DSG/etc service. Since I bought the manual transmission that service was not necessary and the independent garage across the street did the standard service for not much money. (Dealer charge was double the indie.)Seriously, though, here in the US, Volkswagen parts and service are much more expensive than equivalent service for a Japanese or a domestic car.