New GW-Instek 2000 series digiscope-GDS 2202E - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2015, 07:38:47 pm
content: Hi Fella's,GW Instek have recently introduced a new line of digital oscilloscopes the GDS 2000E series, not to be confused with the older GDS 2000A series.I searched the forum for this new scope and came up zero, so I thought I'd start a thread.Well it looks like Instek are going to take on Rigols 2000 series head on. The GW scope is cheaper and you get serial bus decoding and segmented memory plus lots more as standard. Read the spec. herehttp://www.aspen-instek.com/gds-2202eI decided last week to take a gamble and so I bought one a 2202E that is.Should have it this coming Friday.

author: akimmet
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2015, 09:34:55 pm
content: Instek has a new 1000B series too. It looks to be comparable to the Rigol 1000z series.http://www.gwinstek.com/en-US/products/Oscilloscopes/Digital_Storage_Oscilloscopes/GDS-1000BI still haven't made a final decision on Rigol or Instek, but I'm leaning towards the GDS-1102B.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2015, 09:51:01 pm
content: Looking nice, but probably no BW upgrade hacks for these GW-Instek scopes10M memory depth is quite impressive though, as it is independent for each channel.The intensity grading does not look so nice. Rigol scores much better in this field.No information about serial decoding or other decoding options on the GDS-1000B series.It seems they do a lot of direct comparison with Rigol. Not only on their website, but also in some videos:No matter if it performs better in FFT, I think that the Rigol scope looks much better.The buttons next to the screen don't look so nice, but this is personal taste of course

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2015, 10:00:50 pm
content: 1 GSa/s Maximum Real-Time Sampling Rate

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 12:33:26 am
content: On the 1st video, he didn't even bother to compensate the probe, that's just great advertising!On the 2nd one he probably selected the worse setting for the DS1000z model.I don't have a DS1000z but on my DS2000 one I get 500MSa/s with Auto Mem Depth capturing 14M points using peak detect and I can see all the harmonics fine, odd and even.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 07:38:12 am
content: Yes, that also disturbed me a lot. He started adding measurement options, without compensating the probe. Gave me the impression that it is a marketing guy, and not an engineer who actually knows about the basic scope principlesLooks like they did not even review the video internally, otherwise at least one of the engineers would have pointed that out too!I actually don't like this direct comparison approach, breaking down other manufacturers.This is not very professional. It makes me think about the Pepsi and Coca-Cola fights

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 08:35:28 pm
content: Well, my brand new GW-Instek GDS2202E scope arrived yesterday and it is having a lasting impression on me. I'm very glad I bought it.My Rigol DS1104Z has been moved to the back burner.I just want to clarify something here regarding Rigols Ultra-Vision whose concept it is to make their digital scopes screens look and feel and behave like the old crt scope screens, that is increased intensity on modulated waveforms where the 'knots' appear. I must say that Rigol has done a very good job here, but wait...why make a digi scope screen behavior the same as a CRT screen?Whats so fascinating about CRT screen behavior? CRT scopes are gone and they are in the past now.Cheerscommie

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 08:40:20 pm
content: It's the graded persistence modes so you can more easily see transient behavior. That's what many are referring to when they like "analog" type scopes. The Rigol implementation is quite good, even on the DS1000Z series, and better on the higher models (more graduations-64 vs 256 IIRC).

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 08:57:36 pm
content: Quote from: dadler on August 06, 2015, 08:40:20 pmDid the 'graded persistence' effects come by a natural feature of CRT scope screens? or was there engineering done in the actual CRT tube to make this happen?

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 09:00:41 pm
content: yes, by the natural persistence of the phosphor on the CRT.edit: some analog scopes have a Z input, that can control the brightess at the given instant in the electron gun sweep. This can be useful in some cases and I am not aware of any digital scopes that have the same feature.

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 09:23:36 pm
content: Quote from: dadler on August 06, 2015, 09:00:41 pmSo any digi scope which doesn't copy CRT display characteristics in it's screen driver software are a pile crap then? Let me point something out here, Dave compared Rigol's scope against a GW-Instek scope display and claimed the latter was a pile of crap because it did not deploy Rigol's 'Ultra-Vision' equivalent, I think that's a bit unfair and biased.Valves and CRT's fooled mankind for half a century or more that to create electronic gain, a valve was required.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 09:28:09 pm
content: Well, he's essentially right. Those persistence modes are incredibly useful. I use them all of the time on my scopes and find them invalulable. For a modern scope to not have a reasonable implementation of persistence... I consider that to be a big faux-pas.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 09:37:23 pm
content: Quote from: dadler on August 06, 2015, 09:28:09 pmI agree with dadler... It was the main reason why I upgraded from my previous DSO.It is not a luddite-pleasing feature; it really helps catch hard-to-find or unusual behaviour in waveforms.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 09:45:18 pm
content: Not having a decent intensity grading today on your scope, is like going back 10 years in timeRegarding the implementation of intensity grading. Is the implementation of the algorithm public domain or under NDA?Would Rigol have implemented this on their own, or would they have bought/licensed a 3rd party library from a company specialised in imaging/medical imaging/or the like?Maybe there are even some patents behind? Would be cool to find out more about the various implementations, and see if there is some IP behind as well

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 09:46:41 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on August 06, 2015, 09:37:23 pmWhat I can't understand is why go DSO? why not use a CRT analogue scope instead?

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 09:50:56 pm
content: Why DSO and not analog scope?Advanded triggering, Auto measurements, Protocol decoding, Single shot capture, Segmented memory, Search functions, Math operations, FFT, Mask testing, Screenshots, Exports to Excel, Instrumentation control, Easier calibration/adjustment, Low power, Cheaper to build new, Individual color per channel, Precise screen cursors, BW upgrade in SW, Trial options, MSO upgrade option, etc.

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 09:57:32 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on August 06, 2015, 09:45:18 pmReally?, intensity grading is a natural artifact of any CRT phosphor screen(this is according to Dadler and others), how far back do CRT screens go?We are all trying to replicate CRT display behavior using digi scope software.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 10:31:44 pm
content: Intensity grading is very simple.Say you have a sampling rate of 6,000 waveforms per second and you are displaying them on the screen at 60Hz, well if a pixels is hit 100 times then you leave that pixel at 100% intensity, if never than 0% and in between, well you can go linear or logarithmic. Then give the user access to contrast and/or brightness adjustment.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 10:58:02 pm
content: Quote from: commie on August 06, 2015, 09:57:32 pmWhy you need intensity grading? Really?Please see the video below! Hopefully you now get why it is important to have a decent intensity grading!And can you check this on your new GDS-2000E model? Hopefully it does a better jobQuote from: miguelvp on August 06, 2015, 10:31:44 pmIf intensity grading is that simple to implement, how come GW-Instek did such a lousy job in the GDS-2000A series? =)https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cRe9b7iV6Kc#t=2558Hopefully this has been improved in the GDS-2000E series. Apparently it is easy to implementIf Rigol can do proper intensity grading on a 300 USD scope, then GW-Instek should be able to do it on a 750 USD scope as well!Rigol and GW-Instek is like day and night in feature/quality difference. And Rigol is even cheaper.BTW:- The screen seems to have a 4:3 aspect ratio?- Most of the turnable buttons on the GW-Instek scopes don't have a secondary function (they are not pushable). Rigol scopes have a secondary function on most buttons.- The cursors on the screen have the same color as the waveform. This can be disturbing.- The scope seems louder than Rigol (even louder?)

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 11:07:27 pm
content: Instek has been around a long time, but the brand as a whole is not known for anything other than cheap/low-end products today. They are like Rigol and Siglent. No idea why they didn't implement it (if that indeed is the case), but it's not totally out of character for a low end device to be lacking a piece of expected tech.

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 05:31:18 pm
content: Quote from: dadler on August 06, 2015, 11:07:27 pmThe world's pecking order designed by the United States with regards to quality of equipment goes, USA no.1, Europe no.2, Japan No.3 then South Korea(4) then Taiwan(5) and then China(6) and lastly India(7).I merely want to point out that there is a clear distinction between Chinese and Taiwanese designed equipment's, i.e., Taiwanese stuff is usually good, e.g., look at Brymen/greenlee DMM. these are right up Flukes Ass in terms of quality and spec.As far as intensity grading is concerned, the GDS2202Edoes implement it and you can set with up to about 8 levels with a 120 000wfs/sec throughput rate, it can see the most elusive infrequent glitch anytime. I notice both Rigol and Keysight have special offers on their respective 2000 series scope models no doubt because of the introduction of the GDS2202E on the market.When Dave reviewed the Keysight 2000X, its a great pity he didn't test its persistence with a 120% mod. AM wave like he did with the GWInstek scope.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 07:48:58 pm
content: Quote from: commie on August 02, 2015, 07:38:47 pmThere is another old thread.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-gds-2000e-released/

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 08:13:58 pm
content: TheGDS-1000Bis strange as expected. No Trigger Output. No fine vertical or horizontal scale control. No built-in signal generator. No serial decoding. Thebus,searchandarrowbuttons seem to have no function???Rigol DS1000Z-S is more feature rich, that's for sure.

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 08:56:41 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on August 07, 2015, 07:48:58 pmThanks Hydrawerk!, Like I said I did search first but couldn't find anything, your thread makes for very insightful reading.BTW, you appear to be concerned that there are no Vertical/Horizontal fine controls, well there is, but you need to select them in software via a softkey.What I like most about this scope is it is massive, about 1/3 bigger than my Rigol DS1104Z.The GDS2202E is both boring(lovely), very easy to use and quality feel to it.CheersCommie

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 11:11:47 pm
content: What I find a bit odd is that the buttons on the right of the screen are round, while the buttons on the bottom are flat.Would have been more consistent to have them both flat for the vertical strip on the right of the screen, and the horizontal strip on the bottom of the screen.The round buttons on the right of the screen seem also a bit big. If they would have been made smaller, there could have been more space between adjacent buttons.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 01:13:13 pm
content: Quote from: commie on August 07, 2015, 08:56:41 pmI am sure that there are no fine vertical or horizontal controls accessible via a softkey. There is no such feature in the user manual. If you have found it, please provide a screenshot from the user manual.

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 02:08:15 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on August 08, 2015, 01:13:13 pmHi Hydrawerk,You are correct, there is no fine controls for the vertical and horizontal, however if you invoke waveform play and stop then a whole bunch of options appear for the softkey selection, one key is dedicated for 'zoom position' fine or coarse selection.So you can toggle between horizontal coarse/fine adjustments when you are in waveform play/stop/zoom mode, very powerful feature.If you are viewing a waveform on screen, with nothing selected, then there is no fine control except by pushing in the horizontal/verticle control knobs gets you back to the centre screen in an instant.Can I ask, why you would want fine controls for the horizontal/vertical under nomal waveform viewing, i.e., with nothing selected? I have pre owned quite few scopes in my time and I cannot remember ever having 4 knobs to control the horizontal/vertical position?

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 04:06:15 pm
content: QuoteBecause I like it and it is useful. Most scopes have at least fine (=Vernier) vertical controls. Rigol, Keysight, Siglent, Tektronix...

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 04:16:15 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on August 08, 2015, 04:06:15 pmOkay, yeah, I never knew that, I guess I've learned a new scope feature then.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 11:56:31 am
content: Their web seems to be out of order.http://www.gwinstek.com/

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 06:51:11 pm
content: The video works fine.Hey, they should buy a HD camera. 640×480 was OK back in 2002.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 08:51:28 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on August 10, 2015, 06:51:11 pmI guess they filmed in it VHS. But hey, at least it's in color, not black and white

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 07:03:33 pm
content: GDS-1000B is said to have waveform update rate up to 50 000wfms/s, but there is no trigger output and there are no conditions specified at all.

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 07:20:51 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on August 12, 2015, 07:03:33 pmI assume you looking for a BNC with 50KHz signal on it's output sync'd to it's waveform update? I've just had a look on mine the GDS 2202E 120k waveforms/sec and there are two BNC's, one is for 'Cal', the other for 'go-no-go' output.If my assumption above is correct, why would you want a sync. output anyway?

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2015, 07:45:53 pm
content: QuoteYes.QuoteBecause it is quite common on scopes made by Owon, Keysight (Agilent) or Rigol.It is useful for checking the actual waveform update rate.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2015, 08:15:46 pm
content: It's also useful for correlating data with external devices, such as a logic analyzer.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2015, 09:05:59 pm
content: Quote from: commie on August 12, 2015, 07:20:51 pmIt's not a "sync" output, the output Hydrawerk is looking for is called a "trigger output", which essentially signals when the scope has been triggered and which has been a standard port on most scopes (aside maybe from the bottom-of-the-barrel class) for ages. As the trigger rate is identical to the waveform update rate the trigger out can be used to measure the waveform update rate of a scope, amongst other things.

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2015, 09:26:44 pm
content: The above replies are acknowledged, well it seems not having this signal doesn't appear to be any great handicap.At the end of the day, if you need the latter bnc out then don't buy the GDS-2202E scope.As you all know, I've only had the GDS-2202E a couple of days so I'm still figuring out what it can do for me and I can honestly say it's one hellava nice scope, the more I use it the more I like it and I've got 200MHz bandwidth to pla ^-^y with, yeah!My Rigol DS1104Z(unhacked with two options activated), Ermmm.. thinking of Ebaying it. What do you think?

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2015, 09:34:07 pm
content: I still use my DS1054z in the garage as my beater. If you have no use for it and truly think it doesn't offer any advantages over your new scope, perhaps sell it.I've found that having multiple is useful as these things seem to break =P hehe

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 03:02:10 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on August 08, 2015, 04:06:15 pmHi Hydrawerk,With regards to my GDS2202E not having vertical/horizontal fine controls, I have been having a little play and found for large excursions of vertical the response speeds up, and for small excursions it slows right down which is the same as having fine/coarse controls except it's automatic on the GDS2202E scope. I maintain, the GDS2202E is a good scope.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 01:25:29 pm
content: The scope is OK for the price.http://www.tme.eu/en/katalog/#id_category=112665&s_field=artykul&s_order=ASC&visible_params=2%2C2101%2C2102%2C383%2C1813%2C1939%2C55%2C74%2C72&used_params=2%3A83681%3B55%3A377926%3B

author: fanOfeeDIY
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 03:54:16 pm
content: Hi commie,GDS-2000E is listed on my chart and seem to me the only model has many serial decoding as standard feature.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/digital-oscilloscope-comparison-chart/msg678378/#msg678378

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 04:27:00 pm
content: Quote from: fanOfeeDIY on August 16, 2015, 03:54:16 pmYep, it's currently the only scope with serial bus decoding as a standard feature and it does not come with any options, all the options are included standard. Rigol have responded by releasing all 4 of their options for the price of one(DS2202A).I payed £946+vat for my GDS2202E, equivalent Rigol DS2202A+all options would cost me approx. £1200.00+vat.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 04:33:42 pm
content: Yes,and GDS-2000E seems to have better tools for long record management likePlay/PauseandSearch.

author: hansan
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 08:08:49 pm
content: Hi Commie,How do you like your GDS-2202E oscilloscope?I am looking for a better low range 4 channel 100MHz scope and the GDS-2204E is on my short list.(The 200MHz model is only 40 Euros more expensive compared with the 100MHz model.)I did not see any real review yet of this scope, therefore I would like to ask you and other users how this scope behaves in use to get a bit better picture, before I make a decision.There is a lot of voices on the forum pushing for or Rigol or for the Tek/HP/LeCroy/R&S brands. Instek does not seem to be so popular.Greetings!

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 09:54:48 pm
content: GW Instek is a bit weird, not so much bang per buck, but their scopes do have decent PSU with good caps. The scope will live for ages.

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 06:16:16 am
content: Quote from: commie on August 15, 2015, 03:02:10 pmThat's not what Hydra was referring to. Vernier controls are not for managing the rate of change (which you described), but rather setting the scale to intermediate values beyond the fixed 1/2/5 settings. So, e.g. if you wanted to set the vertical to 185 mV/div, that would be possible on most other scopes, but not on the GDS2000E series. You're locked into 50/100/200/500 mV/div, etc.And anticipating your reply...Just because you may never have used such a capability, and others may not use it often, does not mean it is not a valuable and useful capability to have. It is unfortunate that Instek failed to incorporate it, since the scope is so good in many other ways, and it is not difficult to implement.