Tenma reflow station from element14 and Quick brand stuff in AU - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: julianhigginson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 02:43:25 am
content: sorry for the noob question (well, I am a noob here..)but I'm looking to get a reflow iron of my own, soon. And I'm not up to date with what's good at the moment, even after searching on here...Basically - I'm used to having the use of employers ones (some hakko model, usually. Often with the mechanical flow restriction) but since striking out on my own last year, it's been a thing I need to own, and now is the time to own one.. But I was hoping not to have to buy a new hakko 810b for the best part of $1k.I'm a bit down on cheap ebay hot air irons because the last couple of startups I have worked for have had the awful jaycar rework station which makes me see red every time I try to use it (airspeed WAY too fast at its slowest rate and blows parts all around my tiny little high density boards) But I haven't used many others, and there's a lot out there...This Tenma at element14 looks like maybe it's OK. The current price is very friendly and for some silly reason I tend to trust E14.http://au.element14.com/tenma/ss-952bc-f/rework-station-500w-110v-220v/dp/231140202though no data on minimum airflow puts me right off. Has anyone here used one? I'd love a review from someone who has used it for fine close work.I have read up on here and it seems like "Quick" brand are seen as pretty good, though people say they are low cost.. I found a reseller in australia who has a Quick 856 for sale, and well, they are not so cheap. Actually around the same price as the hakko FR-810b. :-) Where do you get the cheap but good Quick gear in Australia?

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 11:12:19 pm
content: From element14's product pageQuoteSince you are from oz, you could of bought the unit and if it didn't perform, ie lowest air flow still blew components around, then essentially the unit did not perform as advertised and is therefore "not fit for purpose". Full refund for you, good review for us

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 11:49:23 pm
content: It would be insane to buy that Tenma at such price. It is usual Chinese piece of shit station with diaphragm pump. It has no chance against Quickwith BLDCmotor, those with brushed motor are not so good and are louder, though decent stations too.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 12:19:44 am
content: Shame about Tenma. 15+ years ago I bought a Tenma 2000 process calibrator for about 600AUD from farnell. Aside from the somewhat convoluted UI it hasn't missed a beat, never been sent for repair/cal and is still bang on according to my cal'd 6.5 digit meter

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 08:34:49 am
content: I hope you made sure you're getting a 220V version.I say this as those with the letters DW are/were for the US market, so 110V; DA & DS were both 220V, with UK & EU plugs respectively. This may have changed since I last dug up this info however, as it's been ~ a year IIRC.Input voltage issues not withstanding, it's an excellent station IME (had mine for a couple of years).Much quieter than stations that use a diaphragm pump, its feature set is comparable to the Hakko FR-810, and its UI is very intuitive to use (much better than Hakko). The 3 nozzles that come with it will do most anything you throw at them (shields help), but if you do need specialty shapes, they're inexpensive.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 09:54:56 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on October 27, 2016, 08:34:49 amI have seen 861DW labels on internet marked as 110V and 220V. My 861DS has different handpiece compared with DW photos. DA is higher power and airflow version. It has a much larger squirrel cage fan and SMPS inside. The downside is, when it cools down, it's very noisy at it's 200 l/m, and no way to reduce cooling airflow.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 10:06:48 am
content: 16:52 for internals. DE has almost the same specs as DA.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 07:12:29 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 27, 2016, 09:54:56 amWeird.FWIW, the US site (quick-usa.com) has the output of theQUICK861DWas 1kW & 120l/min. max. airflow (I did note no input voltage stated). As per the higher power output & airflow, they list two models; theQUICK855PX(1.3kW & 200l/min.), and theQUICK856AE(1.2kW & 200l/min.).As per the handle,mine is different from the photos as well, cosmetically speaking (same shape, but no green band; mine is just charcoal grey & no recess where one would be fixed/attached).It has a dark teal band, and the protective shroud unscrews from the rest of the handle, revealing the 3 retaining screws; cartridge then comes right out of it's socket.Regardless, it's been both a damn fine station for me, and the best value out there IMHO.YMMV of course, but it seems they overlap the P/N's & specs it seems.Not good for customers, as they seem to truly be after the global market, particularly the West it seems.From what I've seen, theQUICK 861DAsold in the UK would be the same model, just with a different transformer for the electronics. Checking Somerset Solders however, the same image of the 861 is shown but it does state 1.3kW for the heater.In the case of a QUICK861DS (EU plug), I searched for it + .pl, as I knew Polish vendors were selling it. And I found a listing for it; but when I used my browser's translate feature, it shows 861DW as well (translated versionhere).Very confusing this is, based on previous results....But in other ways easier, as the buyer only need make sure of the input voltage IMHO (worst case, they only need an adapter or change out the plug).P.S. The difference in the fan size between the two airflow ratings is enormous.But the rest of it looks the same overall to me.Makes me think the differences are the fan specs (size being the most obvious visually), and the heater assy. (i.e. 1kW vs. 1.2kW or 1.3kW for the rated VAC input voltage = specification/s for the product being sold in a particular market) being the differentiations. Though I suspect overall performance won't be noticeable (only under specific circumstances, particularly if there's heavy ground layers on 12+ layer PCB's IMHO). And a preheater can solve this issue anyway, even if it's a cheap one IMHO (in my case, I use a cheap-o Tenma I bought from MCM here in the US, which is a part of Farnell <they own the Tenma brand, & use the lowest bidder in near, if not every case of the products sold using this brand name>).

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 10:55:51 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on October 27, 2016, 07:12:29 pmOnly front panel board and enclosure seem to be the same.QuoteThey are in much higher price range than 861

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 11:22:16 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 27, 2016, 10:55:51 pmThis I was aware of, which is part of the confusion for me, as the models I'd listed previously (DW, DA, & DS, were all in the same relative price range, given thegougingpricing in the UK & EU).For example, the DW goes for $235 here in the US, while the DA version available in the UK goes for 235GBP, and so on.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 11:36:28 pm
content: QuoteFor me it's DW in any language.861DA might be UK variation of 861DE but certainly not a variation of 861DS or 861DW. 1.2 kW 861DE has a cartrige heater (19:00 on the video) unlike my 861DS.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 01:41:26 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 27, 2016, 11:36:28 pmMine has a cartridge heater assembly with the same enclosure & boards inside as yours.Does your handle have the green ring?Thinking it may have been what changed with the handle I have (all charcoal grey, no colored band or recess to fit one).Looks like those with the green/teal rings are for the higher capacity cartridge assemblies (1.2kW & 1.3kW versions).Quote from: julianhigginson on October 28, 2016, 02:33:59 amSounds like you'll be fine since you verified with the seller before buying.As per the transformer, it's a single primary, so a simple rewire won't work. Even if you could (or bought an appropriate transformer), you'd have to get the correct heater assembly for 220V mains.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 02:12:23 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on October 28, 2016, 01:41:26 pmMy handle is grey, consisting of 1 piece.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 02:25:42 pm
content: Completely different from 1.2 kW cartridge heater.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 02:38:18 pm
content: I totally f***ed up.It does have the green band, but it's dark teal in color. The shroud has slot vents and unscrews from the rest of the handle, gaining access to the 3 retaining screws. Cartridge pulls out of it's mating socket.Exactlylike the one you indicate is a 1.2kW cartridge.Yet my unit has the smaller BLDC 120l/min. squirrel fan, and the label on the back of the unit says 1000W (just checked to be sure).Perhaps they're just using the 1.2kW heater cartridge & handle to reduce parts inventory (make one for 110V & 220V respectively). Overdrive them for the 1.3kW versions, and a separate 1kW @ 220V for a grand total of 3 separate P/N's.It would certainly make manufacturing & storage easier.

author: N9ZN-Extra
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 06:05:42 am
content: I have been looking carefully for the least cost equipment which is not junk and I believe the Quick 861DW will fill the bill. It is more than I had hoped to spend but I am sure the extra money will be returned in savings on burnt out components quickly.As for mismatched handles, I also noticed the back of the machine in the photo has a label which is not neatly aligned with the geometry of the machine. Both of those things, handle and label, are dead giveaways that unit is a knock-off or counterfeit of the Quick. The photographed machine also is missing other labels/stickers ie: certifications I believe should be there and I would stay far, far away from that product.Every Quick, I have seen, in the 861 series has a handle which has a teal color band, and properly aligned labels with certifications. Those are the genuine Quick stations. Buying Chinese today is truly the best application of "Buyer Be Ware" I have encountered to date.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 08:47:10 am
content: Quick makes different styles of handle. AFAIK all 861 stations which are currently sold use cartridge heater and handle like on the picture. EDIT: 861DA probably still has that handle, it uses completely different nozzle style, though. 861DS which I have is not produced anymore. Knockoff 861 appeared quite recently, maybe a year ago. They are so different, it's hard to not notice. All which I've seen on the pictures have holder attached to the main case. There are no pictures of fake 861 in this thread, all are genuine.QuoteYou should not expect EU or US certifications when looking on the station which was made for Chinese market.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 08:58:13 am
content: This is how actual knockoff looks like.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 10:00:51 pm
content: Quote from: N9ZN-Extra on October 26, 2018, 06:05:42 amJust out of curiosity, have you looked at the 857DW? I have one and I quite like it. I used it to remove 0402 passives and solder 0603 in both of my Aneng meters with great success. It is cheaper than the 861 and if you aren't going to use it everyday for hours, the 857 might be a better bargain.

author: N9ZN-Extra
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 10:18:53 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on October 26, 2018, 10:00:51 pmLet me apologize for the long and anticipated reply but I want you to understand why I do the things I do when looking for equipment. For the longest time, I searched and searched for equipment of quality at the lowest of prices. This was driven by the absurd pricing of the giants in the soldering equipment and expendables market. I have the same trouble with aviation equipment and many other things so this is just part of my natural thinking.The search for the lowest price took me through numerous purchases over many months and every one of those poor quality machines were returned because they were inferior in work results. When I look for cost savings I have to consider replacement cost for ruined burned out components along with extended troubleshooting due to using poor quality heat and or air flow.I do a lot of microelectronics reflow and repair work as well as antique restorations on my bench. It is a hobby considered a non-profit enterprise but also provides a substantial income because of the lowered expenses. I never advertise and work is never lacking at my shop because results speak for themselves. I use a business model where discretionary expenses are limited to no more than $50.00 U.S. per most jobs taken on. Otherwise, customers are asked for approval and when they say no they are not charged for anything including labor and I go to the next project. There are also times, after probing at a broken item, I will turn the work down and charge the customer nothing for my time. Very often those customers leave the item behind with me as a thank you for looking at it, Those items are used for parts, recycled, or repaired and used as loaner equipment for customers or given to a family without a TV for example. This is why I have work piled up at my shop, no one feels ripped off when they leave and they get the best pricing in my area. I never buckle to trying to keep up with the demand to expand my operations. In that sense, the business remains a hobby and customers will wait for things to be repaired when they are receiving great work and pricing which is always at least 1/2 the cost or less than competing pricing, everyone wins.Keeping my cost down is essential to my continued success but there is a fine line which can never be crossed, the quality of my tools results must meet or exceed the quality of my work. I judge tool quality by the ability to perform on a steady basis and deliver quality results more than by the components used internally. Should something fail I can usually repair it quickly without re-engineering the tool. I use inexpensive T12 type soldering irons and have several stations instead of one very expensive station. The quality of the work they accomplish is as good as the expensive items and I see them almost as expendables. I have one Quick 861D used for BGA that I designed a programming interface for which raises and lowers temps gradually over time to match the profile of work done, it is also a spare 861 if needed for normal bench work. Even hot air could be considered an expendable at my shop when compared to the expensive brand equipment.Having backup equipment on standby is better than having nothing available when an important tool fails and the expensive tools will fail from time to time. This is why I do not buy into the argument over how well something is engineered being the mitigating factor driving purchases.When a tool is incapable of steady work results it is not of the quality I demand although it may be of good enough quality for a hobbyist who occasionally works on less sensitive projects. I do things differently than many others. I will use solder iron tips that last only 1/4 the time of the high priced brand when they solder as well and cost less than 1/4 the price of the best brand. Because of the savings, I have a number of spare solder tips in my shop standing by. Expendables fall into a different category with me. My only consideration is do they deliver steady expected performance and last long enough to make them worthwhile expenses.I decided on the Quick 861DW after a long period of evaluation for my shop. It might be the unit you are using would deliver similar results for a shorter overall period of time, I have yet to evaluate that unit. It comes back to the quality of results weighed against cost and life expectancy. When work results are similar I tend to think in terms of could I afford two of the lesser lifespan design, would having a spare unit offer advantage while saving on the cost of a single longer lifespan unit.Again I offer my apology for the length and to some extent off-topic detail provided but it is the only way I know to explain my thoughts. Stick with obtaining proper results and you can't go wrong.

author: julianhigginson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 10:52:14 pm
content: I ended up getting the 861DW model online after posting this... I've had it for a while now. It's been fantastic, and I'm really happy with it. I'm not a solder tech so I don't use it all day in process work, but I'm using it regularly to do everything I need from tiny and small and tightly packed, to heavily thermally connected SMT work with no issues.It's definitely the "pro gear at a great price" that I was hoping for. (Like hakko used to be, when I bought my first proper soldering iron - the 936 - more than half my life ago now, and still going strong as my second iron)Where I am right now, money is less of an issue.. but at the time when my business was very new and cashflow was not great, only paying half the cost of the hakko for something just as good left me with more cash for other equipment. It was a bit of a gamble when I bought, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy a second if I need another one day.