Seeking advice in switching job? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: dzseki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2023, 10:01:17 pm
content: Long post alert, with some rant!Not sure if this is the right section to post, but since this post is not about actual job openings nor I am seeking for opportunities. Most people hang out here anyway, I give it a try... I am curious about your opinion.The professional part:I work for medium-large company with ~1000 employees, we produce industrial measuring equipments for a specific sector. I work here for more than 8 years, started as a service engineer, but I am a Product Manager now. While true that I am responsible for a certain product family, but -despite the size of the company- I am my own Product Engineer, even further I am also the chief development engineer of this tool right now. The reason for this is that I worked my entire career working around this particular instrument, and the tool and metrology is rather complex, the main unit consist of about 3500 electronic components, and the other development engineers within the company always try to keep a distance of this product due to its complexity, while the only more experienced engineer than me retired a few years ago.Among all I am most proud of my senior development engineer title (even though this is the lowest rank of my other titles), this is the part of my job which I love the most. But since I have other responsibilities I only develop PCBs those require some specific knowledge on its target application. Of course I work within a larger group which is responsible for more product lines, and if there is some "hard to do" or "critical" new development requests usually I am the guy who gets it done right. All in all I only make 3-4 new PCBs a year, which is not much to be honest, compared to full profile development engineers, what I do are mission critical analog circuits mostly, with some simple microcontrollers, generally everything between low-noise, high stability to 500 MHz. I am very familiar with both Altium and Mentor PADS. I do circuit simulation both in MicroCap and TINA.The personal part:I also have a wife and thee sons (2-4-7 yo.), and while my main hobby interest is also electronics, still raising the kids and "keeping the family running" is by far the highest priority. I am not living for work, but work for a living. As the school starts for our biggest son this autumn we face some some change in our life in terms of managing the logistics of the kids.At work we have to work for 8:30 (lunch included), but there is some flexibility in workhours on monthly basis, with daily core time-frame, also I have a possibility for 4 days of Home Office per month.The Problem:I asked whether it is possible to change my work time schedule for 7:30 in-office and + 1 hour home office per day, fixed. Because with my wife we found out this would greatly ease our logistics problems with the kids. Needless to say this was declined by the HR, stating if they make any exception with me, then every other employees would want a "custom" work schedule, instead they adviced a so-they-say constructive idea to simply shift 1-1 hours for three days, then work off at the rest 2 days, which is simply ridiculous... This talk happened yesterday, today I was not even in work (wedding annyversary), yet I am still very pissed off about this, especially by their counter offer.What to do?I think my request was not very extraordinary, and I am pretty sure I can find a new job easily where they would be happy to fulfill this request.In fact I am still so pissed off that I strongly consider to change job, just because of this, even though I amrathersatisfied with the other aspects of my current job.If I would resign, for sure they would have a very hard time get a substitute for all my experience (BTW my notice period is 3 months... :/)I also have a vague feeling that by only mentioning to them that it is perhaps time for me to look for a new job, either by bluffing or with a real offer in my hand, could make miracles with my request. What I fear with playing this card out is that I don't want to abuse our mutual loyality with my direct boss, who is a super nice guy...

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2023, 10:34:56 pm
content: First, this was yesterday. Cool down, take a deep breath and relax during the weekend.Second, taking this to HR in the first place was the wrong move. They don't give sh*t about you, they've other things to do and you're just noise.Discuss it with your immediate boss instead.He's the one who can allocate your working time and appreciate your value. If HR balks, he can take it one step further up. And so on. That's how it works.Remember: you're in the productive part of the company where value is created. HR is a service department that costs money. Nothing else.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2023, 10:46:01 pm
content: About that last part -- what is loyalty?If just your immediate boss is a nice guy, but they don't have any sway -- if they don't have the power to get you better hours or a raise -- they aren't the company being loyal to you, that's some guy being a generally okay human being and having no further powers than that.So be careful not to confuse personal interaction with corporate intent. It's one of the primary tools they use -- to convince workers to put in much more work than they are being paid for, to guilt them into longer hours, etc. (Not saying such level of manipulation is going on here, just that itcould, and to beware of it -- and that it really does happen elsewhere.)Indeed it might be an intentional choice by upper management to keep a nice person like that in a more middle-manager position -- specifically to manage the expectations of those below them (you), to insulate them from having to deal with requests directly.FYI, going to HR doesn't mean anything -- at least, I can't speak for what passes for Hungarian HR I guess, but if it's the usual model -- they can't, and won't, do anything that isn't specifically allowed by extant policy, law (sometimes!*), or manager approval (again, per company policy, it has to be signed by whoever has the authority to do so). If your immediate manager-friend can't do anything, or their manager, or so on and so forth, then that's what you're stuck with.*You do occasionally have the case where corporate is corrupt and HR is being intimidated, and HR gives company "policy" priority over the law. Such companies are ripe for legal action (report to labor department, say).You may want to check local (or EU) law on paternity leave. If they're not going to be reasonable and offer reduced, flexible or remote hours, then stick them with what the law says they have to do. It may also be a good time to take all your vacation -- not all at once, but as a reminder: any you've left unused, that doesn't accumulate, is money out of your pocket. This sounds like a great year to make use of it -- 4 weeks is enough to take off every other Friday, give or take, for example.Or 6 hr x 5 days + 1 vacation, since they seem to be receptive to shifting hours within a week.Also take note of any time you're on call out of hours. If they're calling you out of the office, and you're not scheduled remote, and on-call isn't in your contract -- consider letting it go to voicemail.Good luck, and congratulations on the family!Tim

author: thermistor-guy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2023, 01:43:48 am
content: Quote from: dzseki on August 24, 2023, 10:01:17 pmThis is a bogus reason from HR. You have a lot of leverage, here. HR is playing on your "nice-guy" mindset to stop you from using it, bymaking you feel guilty. Remember, HR doesn't own or run the company. It takes orders from the people who do.you raise a valid question though - how to use your leverage without damaging the working relationships you value.I suggest talking to your boss: lay it out for him that this schedule change is important to you and will benefit the company as well.Ask him what he can do. You will find out if you're truly valued or not. And once you know, you can decide on further action.There is another option, and I used it once: resign right now, and offer to keep working as a contractor, where you set your ownhours.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2023, 08:44:44 am
content: I second the suggestion to talk to your direct manager. IMHO it shouldn't be a problem to work during hours the building is open.

author: dzseki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2023, 09:49:41 am
content: Thanks for the suggestions.I forgot to highlight that I approached my direct manager in the first place, and he seemed to be supportive about the idea, so he asked me to write down my request in an e-mail to him, so he can foward it to the higher levels.Then he was the messenger again telling the decision, which I believe was not his opinion, but this does not really matter afterall. That's why I simplified this detail in the opening post. In fact I don't even know if the HR itself was who rejected my request, it could even come from higher levels, I can't know for sure.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2023, 05:25:58 pm
content: I don't know how your employee benefits stack up but in the US, employee overhead is around 35%. To pay you $50,000 per year costs the company $67,500 give or take. When you take the contractor path, make sure to add the 35% to your hourly rate. I don't know what medical insurance costs but around here it is outrageous. Don't forget to price in vacations and sick leave (usually included in the 35%.How binding is the three months notice? Around here, two weeks is normal. It's not like they are going to hire your replacement in time for training and 3 months is likely too short anyway. See if you can negotiate 'Friday is my last day, my child needs to get to and from school on time'. Assuming you have a new job lined up... Are there other job opportunities?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2023, 06:04:44 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on August 25, 2023, 05:25:58 pmIn Europe 3 months notice is not unusual for specialist engineers. That leaves some time to hire somebody else to take over. An employer could sue due to breach of contract. Also keep in mind that the world is small so breaching a contract might hurt you somewhere down the line because people talk.Medical insurance is typically not super expensive in Europe but depends on the country.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2023, 07:58:18 pm
content: FYI Large aerospace engineering companies in the US typically pay slightly more than double the hourly rate for contractors than they do for employees doing the same job.Years agoI was making $20 per hour (and being required to work up 15 hours of unpaid overtime per week) but outside contractors were being paid $50 per hour and for every hour that they work. I know because I supervised them. OTOH I had health insurance (lousy health insurance!), and got vacation and holiday pay and the contractors got nothing other than their hourly pay.Generally we were expected to give 2 weeks notice if we quit and generally the company gave us two weeks notice (or two weeks pay) before they laid us off. That's pretty standard in the US.My wife was a senior manager in the 2nd largest tele-communications company in the US and they operated exactly the same way.OP, my advice is for you to polish up your resume and start looking for a new job. Hopefully you can find one that agrees with your desires but even if you decide to stay where you are, once the company knows that you're not happy with the current situation then they may try to abolish your job and force you out so you need to be prepared.

author: thermistor-guy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 02:16:54 am
content: It looks like your boss values you, but doesn't have the power to make the schedule change happen.Quote from: dzseki on August 24, 2023, 10:01:17 pmFInd out if you can, in fact, find a new job easily that will fit your target schedule. Not saying you can't, just confirm objectively that the jobmarket is the way you think it is.If your family comes first, and if a more suitable job is available, and if changing jobs serves your family and marriage better, then the choice becomesclear.

author: dzseki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 06:44:53 am
content: It is interesting to see that many of you advicing to be an external contractor, I think this is far less common here. The company I work for only hires one or two such people and those have some very special expertise. But even then from the inside it looks like the company tries to undermine these people as much as possible by bringing these expertise inhouse without the expensive contractors. So they are always hanging on a thin line as I see.Ayway, a plan is forming. By local laws, it is possible to require part time work schedule for parents who have kids under age 8 in written form, and the employer will have to respond to this in written form as well, if the answer is negative, then they have to give a valid and reasonable explanation why not, otherwise it can be brought to court. So I'll request a 7 hour workday schedule, instead of the 8 what I currently have. And in the meantime I'll apply for a 12.5% raise, to keep my incomes in level.Although the employer does not have to accept either of these requests particularly the raise, but neither can they say that if they would accept, then they would make an exception with me, so by their answer it will be clear where we are heading...

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 07:49:00 am
content: Is it possible for you to perform any of your duties at home? If so, they might let you cut your in office hours and you can work an hour a day at home.

author: dzseki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 08:47:27 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 26, 2023, 07:49:00 amI could, and in fact this was the very first idea with which I approached my boss, but the current corporate policy does not allow to mix the in-office and home office days, it has to be fully either. So they declined my request saying that if they would make an exception, then all the other co-workers will stand in line for custom work schedules...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 11:15:41 am
content: Quote from: dzseki on August 26, 2023, 06:44:53 amA contractor with a single customer, isn't a contractor but an employee with high pay and no rights. IOW: if you want to become a contractor, you'll need to have several customers so you always have projects lined up. This way you have little risk if one customer no longer has work for you.And your company is right to bring the expertise in-house as much as they can. I have been contracting for a long time and when a contractor has their own engineers, it often is the goal that I train/teach those engineers. I'm fine with that because that leaves me with doing more interesting stuff to tinker with.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 12:02:17 pm
content: I won't write my latest work experience, just so much:I gave 24 years of my time and efforts to a second job (in parallel with my main job), only to realise I was complete abused work-wise. Overloaded with work, shit pay and no consideration by the department director to plan my future. When I quit, the outcry was big ("how will we replace you?") but in the end, I have been replaced after 1-2 months. Interestingly I was so far replaced by 3 (!) people and they still do not cover all the work I did... I exect to be replaced by 5 people. I was fucking cheap. The director was always a nice guy, as well as HR. But ultimately, everyone just looked for their own benefits and I was the sucker working for the future of the department. What and idiot I was...My experience resulted in this opinion:1) Your superior does not decide anything. As mentioned before, he is the nice guy that motivates you and keeps you profitable for the company. He won't decide your work schedule or wage.2) Human resources don't give a shit about you, they just make sure that all contracts are within the legal framework and company terms.3) NOBODY IS IRREPLACEABLE! If you quit your job, they will find someone else to do it or they might decide to just drop "your special product", as it obvisously can't be that important economically and strategially, if in a company with 1000+ employees, said product depends on just one guy.4) Never approach the board with "I have another job offer". Any reasonable administration board will reply "go for it". They will never offer you a better deal to stay. It is for a reason that one should never give in to blackmail and that would be exactly the case. Instead, approach the administration board and explain your value, your current situation and why you are unhappy. Explain what you need to make ends meet and if they refuse, tell them that you will actively start seeking other job opportunities. Note that you have not resigned, yet! Once you find a better job, quit your current job in good terms. If they decide to make a counter offer, consider it, but in my opinion, you should stick to your word and effectively change. You can then wait a year or so and ask them if they want you back. This is how you can get a really good raise.5) NEVER REACT WHEN YOUR UPSET! You are pissed (with the wrong guys - HR). Calm down, let a few days pass and then, when you are "sober", decide your next move.Good luck!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 03:24:31 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 25, 2023, 06:04:44 pmIn my experience, companies don't hire a replacement while the leaving employee is still on the books. No budget for additional headcount. Some don't even start recruiting...I would imagine 3 months of bad feelings, declining morale and strained relations. The company knows you are leaving, they're no longer interested. You know you're leaving, why give max effort?In the US, employment contracts aren't used much. Pretty much everything is 'at will', easy come, easy go. You change jobs in Silicon Valley by turning into the wrong parking lot one morning. Two weeks notice is common but sometimes negotiable. Up and walking out the door is discouraged. Employers are extremely limited in what they can say about employees, former or current. Basically just date of hire, date of termination and salary band (but generally not exact salary). Don't expect a glowing recommendation or a huge flaming, it won't happen (or lawyers get involved).The boss' job is to make the system work for his employees, not just smile and wave. Of course HR wants uniformity. That way they don't have to do anything and that's one thing they are good at.

author: dzseki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 03:33:17 pm
content: Indeed, "my" product line is not so important economically, because it is a very specialized instrument, so the market for that is limited. Nevertheless we are the market leaders in terms of key specifications, and have a wide install base at "important" customers who might buy other instruments as well. Also we are talking about industrial electronics with a planned service time of 7-10 years, you can't withdraw a product from the market overnight.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 05:50:35 pm
content: HR is often outsourced, meaning they fill interview checklist and push othet papers around. They have no clue about value of a particular employee. On the other hand, if a hiring manager tells them he/she wants to hire that specific applicant, HR may even not put the applicant through interviews, they would just contact the applicant with instructions what paperwork needs to be sent to complete the process.

author: thermistor-guy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2023, 12:13:28 am
content: Quote from: dzseki on August 24, 2023, 10:01:17 pmThere is another factor I would consider: you've worked there more than 8 years. Technologies change in that time. Your value as an engineercan decrease, as your knowledge gets further away from the commercial leading edge.In my career as a design engineer, I tended to change jobs every 5 years or so. But not because of some deliberate schedule.Often, after 5 years, the design work was done, the products were stable, and the technology was mature. The work that would keep me valuableas a designer was elsewhere, in other companies.And I loved design. If I was going to keep working as a designer, I had to change jobs. It's easy to drift into a situation where you'revaluable only to one company ,and effectively can't leave, because no-one else will pay you equivalent money. I saw many engineers succumb to that.So, you've been there 8+ years, and you've come a long way. Is it time to move, to keep your skills fresh and go further?

author: thermistor-guy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2023, 01:04:32 am
content: Quote from: Bicurico on August 26, 2023, 12:02:17 pmEven if you are irreplaceable, they still won't care. You and the product are numbers on a spreadsheet, that's it. It's not mean-spirited,it's just reality.Example: I worked for an R&D company that developed unique technology. A German company took over, fired *everyone*, moved all operationsto a S.E. Asian location. They couldn't make the product, because they had fired all the manufacturing and engineering know-how.Did the Germans then approach the original staff, to help fix the situation? Of course not. They just made a sub-standard under-performingproduct. Numbers on a spreadsheet.QuoteIf you are going to move, just move. I have seen companies pull this trick:1. the valuable employee wants a better deal. The company says no.2. The valuable employee says he is leaving. The company then entices the valuable employee to stay with a special offer.3. The valuable employee stays. After a delay, the company explains, with regret, why it can't fulfill the special offer.Your nice-guy boss is not in charge. Other people are.