Null Detectors/Voltmeters - how useful for a turbo-hobby metrology lab?  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 12:08:04 am
content: I may have the ability to acquire a null detector/voltmeter and would love to hear some thoughts on exactly how useful such an instrument is in today's "extreme hobbyist" home metrology lab.To note, I have a Kelvin-Varley divider about to reach me soon (an ESI RV 722). I also have a Data Precision 8200, a set of ESI SR1 resistors, and a hoard of other pieces of instrumentation (these not being standards). I am thinking to pair with the KVD I rather need a voltage standard, though the null meter, from my understanding, is critical for applications where it can help avoiding any current draw through the KVD. Exactly how that works in practice I'm still studying.It'd be great to hear some thoughts on how all these instruments can be put to work. I've read Conrad Hoffman's excellent synopsis and also (not thoroughly) Fluke old edition "Calibration - Philosophy in Practice."

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 12:54:04 am
content: A null detector has some advantages over a DMM for adjusting dividers, like adjusting a KVD so the output voltage is equal to that from another source (like a differential voltmeter), or when nulling a bridge (like matching resistors in Conrad's article, but also when for example adjusting a Fluke 752A or 720A). You could use a null meter, KVD and a voltage standard to form an old-school differential voltmeter (something no doubt discussed in the Fluke book). You might also be able to use it to compare the ratio of the KVD to the DP 8200 voltage standard for linearity verification / adjustment. It wouldn't be the first on my list, because you can do an okay job with a DMM. But if you an get a good deal, then I think you'll find uses for it.

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 01:06:56 am
content: It depends on what null-meter you're looking at and what dmm you already may have (that could also be used as a null-meter) and more importantly,what problem are you trying to solve?

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 02:00:33 am
content: Quote from: alm on February 23, 2023, 12:54:04 amI think this is something that seems pretty useful. The KVD provides a .1ppm resolution and I think that's why these seem to still be used for primary calibration purposes - Fluke still seems to sell the 720A for both arms and both legs in this day and age, which is pretty similar with the ESI I got - and probably also where it far exceeds what a DMM can do (right?).

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 02:09:36 am
content: Quote from: The Soulman on February 23, 2023, 01:06:56 amStarting with the problem I am trying to solve... a metrology itch?But seriously, it's repairing and calibrating DMMs and other instrumentation up to whatever level I can possibly get (currently, I'm dissecting a 7.5 digit DMM, as it pertains to its 10V scale...).The null meters I'm looking at are an HP 419A and a Fluke 845AR.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 03:17:07 am
content: Quote from: Rax on February 23, 2023, 02:00:33 amIf depends on which DMM. The HP/Agilent/Keysight 3458A has a better linearity than any KVD, and Fluke has a document where they describe how their8508A can supposedly replace the old system consisting of a KVD, null meter, standard cell and some other components. But you're unlikely to find such a DMM for the kind of prices you might find a KVD on the used market for.

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 03:44:50 am
content: Quote from: alm on February 23, 2023, 03:17:07 amThank you for the article. Yes, that's the thing, isn't it - what is affordable at hobby level lab and how can one maximize their capabilities on a budget? I'm not currently in an affordability position for anything 8.5 digits. I barely am able to tackle 7.5 (= afford broken), and we'll see if I can reliably repair, adjust, and calibrate it.That sweet spot may equal what a primary metrology lab was doing in the '80s, but that's nothing to sneeze at, is it?

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 03:57:11 am
content: I think the main reason for replacing the old equipment like KVDs with 8.5 digit DMMs was convenience, speed, and needing less less trained staff. So for a hobbyist using technology as described in the first edition of the Fluke calibration philosophy and practice book, other than standard cells, might be a reasonable alternative.

author: bastl_r
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 04:24:48 am
content: I remember an event where I wanted to check and adjust the reference voltage of my Solartron 7065. The measuring current of the 34401 was sufficient to falsify the reference voltage. However, this only became apparent when I found the switching option to 10GOhm of the 34401...With the measurement and counterholding with a null detector no measuring current would have flowed.

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 05:13:07 am
content: But that hobby point made, why are 720As and the bunch being sold for a pretty penny these days? What are they're being used for?

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 06:12:07 pm
content: I can't imagine having a KVD without a null meter. The question is what null meter. The Fluke 845 is a classic but often has service issues. The HP 419 is an older classic, very nice to use, but often has service issues. ESI made some null meters, harder to find, but very good. Yes, they often have service issues. Anything that used NiCd batteries will have service issues, and that's most null meters. See a trend here? Still, if you're capable of servicing the stuff and can find one for not-crazy money, get a null meter!

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 06:24:45 pm
content: Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on February 23, 2023, 06:12:07 pmThank you for these pointers. I actually typically invite (reasonable) servicing issues (such as: nothing leaked, etc.), as it adds to the fun, and can make a unit more affordable. These null meters don't seem very complex either, so that's another aspect.What does matter to me is size, as I'm beginning to run out space very badly at my bench (=...mancave...garage...). So in that sense, the HP would be better. But the Fluke is more sensitive (1uV scale) which I think matters when paired with a .1ppm KVD. So my current pick is the Fluke.

author: guenthert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 07:14:28 pm
content: Quote from: Rax on February 23, 2023, 06:24:45 pmNull meters aren't typically limited by their scale (most have an amplified output, originally intended for strip chart recorders, to which a meter with a larger scale could be attached), but by their noise. Some (surviving) units are considerably better in this regard than originally specified.Further, on the lowest scale, settling time might be fairly high (in an attempt to suppress noise): 3s for the HP 419A, 5s (iirc) for the Fluke 845 and Keithley 155, which might be a bit taxing when adjusting a pot.The AVM-2000 (the null meter of the 21st century) offers to (mostly) independently select input impedance, sensitivity and settling time. It isn't produced anymore though and I haven't seen it on the secondary market (and likely would be out of my reach anyhow).

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 09:41:03 pm
content: Quote from: guenthert on February 23, 2023, 07:14:28 pmThis is helpful, thank you. On a more specific note regarding the settling time, I think you're correct on the data provided, though on an "apples to apples" clarification, I think the 845 is 5s on the 1uV scale, while on the 3uV scale (lowest on the 419A) it records the same 3s as the HP.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 10:08:04 pm
content: AFAIK the Hp419 and Fluke 845 are suitable for relatively low impedance signal sources due to low current noise and low bias current. The lower current than a more normal DMM makes them still attractive, despite the age.In contrast the AVM2000 is using an amplifier with rather high bias and high current noise. So it is a different class of instrument and not that suitable for higher resistance source (e.g. KVD) or higher impedance dividers. For the input current noise chances are the AVM2000 is worse than many long scale DMMs. If at all there can be an advantage for use with low resistance sources.

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2023, 12:14:03 am
content: One year ago I wrote articles about Fluke 720A KVD and 752A Reference Divider, using either 3458A or 845A as Null detector for divider alignment and Differential VM against a 10V voltage reference, e. g. FLUKE 7000. Search in Metrology section, please.I also described, how to use the dividers, and how to make very precise measurements, competing with the 3458A, and especially beating its 100V range. The 1kV range is known to suffer from power non linearity, visible in it's mediocre spec.Under certain configurations, the 10..20pA bias current of the 3458A created errors which were bigger than specification or expected uncertainty.The 845A has fA bias currents, which was superior over the 3458A.I don't remember, if somebody determined the bias current of the hp419A.Currents higher than 1pA is not recommended for use with these dividers.Frank

author: donlisms
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2023, 04:38:40 am
content: I'm ramping up on this stuff; I think it's great, and fun, and I have nothing to impress you with other than enthusiasm.A hundred years ago, people wrote about what they were doing with studying resistance, and wouldn't you know... those simple techniques still work! If you believe in learning from the past at all, you might be interested in many documents about resistance from the US National Bureau of Standards, freely available. A nice collection of a few important ones is in Precision Measurement and Calibration, Electricity and Electronics, Handbook 77, with papers from Frank Wenner (in charge of resistance at NBS for many years, and a good writer/explainer/teacher), and "Precision Resistors and Their Measurement" by James Thomas, who designed the 1 ohm resistors upon which all our resistive hopes were based for so many years. Wenner also has a good paper on four-terminal conductors and the Thomson bridge, where he walks right up to the door of tetrajunctions using some Maxwell equations and other things I don't understand, then veers off to measurement current for the power company rather than exploring the application to bridges. Northrup also wrote an interesting book that may be available online somewhere, about designing and using the gear, including lots of galvanometers.Just replace "galvanometer" with "null meter" as you read. But the galvanometer actually doesn't have some of the issues that any amplified null-detector must deal with, including input bias current and many other influences, so in a galvanometer you can truly can go for the "infinite impedance" (or zero current) balance state. And imagine something kind of like a little featherweight coil and tiny mirror attached to a long taught vertical string, with magnets nearby, and bouncing light of the mirror so you can watch the motion of the reflected spot a meter away, or a room away -- very (very) greatly amplified, with close to 0 current. No friction, just a little mass to move. Easy nanoamps detectors. A hundred years ago. With no digitals. No nothing, almost.And then there are clever techniques like Hamon's implementation of the concept of high-precision ratios using moderate-precision resistors and different series/parallel combinations... a simple but very useful idea, and that's why I see some SR1010's sitting on the bench in the picture on the (modern) calibration lab's web site. Easy-pease better than 1ppm ratios with stone knives and bearskins.Bridges and dividers are really neat, and can be almost free. You need a null detector to use them, and the miracle is you're working with ratios, so the absolute voltage or current doesn't get in the way very much. (You need a voltage reference for other things, of course.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2023, 09:53:45 am
content: The common phrase "infinite impedance" relating to galvanometers and null meters is misleading. What they mean is that as the voltage across the meter approaches zero, the current approaches zero. But this is just Ohm's law. The same happens if you connect a low value resistor between the voltage sources. So much for 'infinite'. Compared to a DMM with 10 GOhm input impedance, a null meter behaves more like a resistor at low voltages, while the DMM behaves more like a current source. A more correct and useful statement is that the bias current is much lower.Hereis the discussion Dr. Frank referred to about using a null meter or DMM to adjust a high-impedance bridge circuit, in this case the 752A self-adjustment circuit, but the same could also be relevant for other bridge circuits if they have a high output impedance.Keep in mind that the HP 419 and older Fluke 845 meters can have problems with the neon-based photo choppers. There are designs for replacement circuits. Search the forum and xdevs.com.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2023, 11:03:04 am
content: With a galvanometer the zero point is with zero current. So even if there is some offset from thermal EMF zero reading is zero current.With an electronic nullmeter a zero reading does not automaticly mean zero current. Ideally they also have a low current, but it depends on the quality and adjustment. The HP419 has a separate adjustment to get near zero current. How low the current for the Fluke meter is likely also depends. Especially with an old instrument it would be definitely worth checking before use (is an open and shorted input reading the same ?). The test on the bias may resolve a bit better than 1 pA (1 µV at 1 Mohm input resistance).One may get around most of the bias effects by reversing the whole meter. This would average out the effect of bias current.The actually tricky part with no easy work around is the isolation from ground. Ideally a nullmeter would be battery powered to allow for good isolation by design.

author: guenthert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2023, 07:03:33 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on February 24, 2023, 11:03:04 amor reverse the source, which one is meant to do in any case in order to compensate for remaining thermal EMV.So, within limits, the input bias isn'tsomuch a problem (here *). On the one HP419A I managed to get (mostly) working (on AC only, replacing the (dead) batteries with a zener/capacitor assembly as suggested by Conrad Hoffman), the input bias is smaller than I can currently measure (less than a few pA), alas the impedance to ground is smaller than specified (more like 6 GOhm).*) in AN86 Jim Williams et. al. used a 419A to determine the offset voltage of a Op-Amp in voltage-follower configuration. Clearly this works only for low impedance sources.

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 07:02:59 pm
content: I think for me, personally - but others may as well be in my position - one of the biggest benefits of having a KVD handy is the capability of generating exact higher voltages for adjustment purposes.I don't feel my 8200 is particularly precise in its 100V range (not anywhere near what's going on in the 10V), and so dialing in a dead-on 100V and inputting into the KVD to be sampled down is very beneficial for the far better accuracy.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 08:01:10 pm
content: The KVD can also have a thermal effect from heating, especially in the top most decade. It depends on the quality and resistance on how good the KVD is at higher voltages.Depending on the model 100 V may already be too high or at least with a reduced accuracy.In the 100 V there is than also the loading problem for the KVD - not many DMMs have a very high impedance (e.g. > 100 Gohm) in the 100 V range. Usually high Z mode is limited to some 12 or 20 V.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 08:13:21 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on February 26, 2023, 08:01:10 pmI'm confused by that. I thought if you wanted to check the 100V range on a DMM usign a KVD you would use a stable but adjustable (or at least trimmable) source in parallel with both the DMM and the KVD which is set to 0.1 and then nulled to a 10V reference. Thus the impedance of the DMM would not be important unless the source was overloaded, and since the KVD is only 100K, the 10M or even 1M of the DMM would be relatively unimportant. Likewise, you would calibrate a source using the same idea. No?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 08:19:50 pm
content: Nulling the output of a KVD against a stable reference, where at null there is zero current flowing between the KVD output and reference, is normal.I believe Kleinstein is pointing out that if the output of the KVD is > 10 to 20 V, the finite input impedance of the DVM connected from KVD to common (perhaps 10 megohm) will load the KVD output.The high-impedance mode of the grounded DVM at lower voltages should not load the resistors, but the DVM's input bias current will give some error.If the DVM is the null meter, the important error is from the bias current.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 08:29:57 pm
content: You can certainly do HV calibrations with a KVD. My Julie unit is good for 700V with a power coefficient of 0.00005%/watt. Still, that sort of thing is better done with a Hamon divider. The 752 is such, or you can DIY one.

author: RoadDog
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 10:43:45 pm
content: Fluke wrote the article on replacing null detectors with 8 1/2 digit meters. At their Josephson junction though sits a Fluke 845ab. I’ve used it. Not the junction they didn’t let me touch that thing but I borrowed their 845 for my 720 bench a couple times. They trust it over the 3458a and their 8 1/2 digit meters. It has worked for over 50 years. It’s too bad they quit making them.I recently picked up an 845 and it doesn’t seem to have any issues. The one I regularly used at Fluke took forever to settle which is a capacitor that needs to be replaced. It had occasional issues with certain ranges too. There are troubleshooting steps in the manual for the 845. I was just lucky and got a newer model that has the newer redesigned circuit in it so no neons or old leaky caps yet.

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 08:27:36 am
content: Quote from: RoadDog on February 26, 2023, 10:43:45 pmThis is due to the high bias current of any DMM, compared to the 845A. Usage of a DMM might be ok for several ppm error and under certain input/output conditions, but not if you go @ 1ppm or below. Additionally, the 3458A shows high AZ current spikes, which would affect the JJ array.. Other DMMs and the 845A might be lower.Frank

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 08:49:31 am
content: For just replacing a nullmeter it does not need 8 digits - with slightly reduced performance (1 µV resolution) a AN8008 handhald DMM could be an option.The point is that the 8 digit DMM can in quite some cases replace the old combination of precision 10 V reference + KVD and null-meter.For some strange reason there seems to be no good modern direct replacement for the old fluke 845. It is a rather small market (mainly the users of the Fluke 752) and there seem to be still enough of the old one around. I would not consider the AVM2000 a valid option - it looks like the bias/current noise is similar / worse than with many DMMs. At least it offers battery operation and thus the option to get low leakage to ground, which is the real show stopper for many bench DMMs. The meters bias courrent could be corrected by polarity reversal, but this is time consuming (idelly aim for symmetric +- reading instead of a simple 0).

author: lugaw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 11:55:56 am
content: I still don't understand the sensitivity specification of Null detectors measured in millimeters.0.6 x 10-3microvolt per millimeter.Where can I read about it?

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 12:49:47 pm
content: Quote from: lugaw on February 27, 2023, 11:55:56 amTry old texts about galvanometers. The sensitivity helps you determine how much voltage is necessary to produce a readable deflection of the meter. If a meter claims a sensitivity of 1 nV, but this only produces 1 um of deflection, then this may not be very usable. Or it might mean you need optical aids to read the meter, like in the old sensitive mirror-galvanometers. See page 7 ofNBS monograph 39: Calibration Procedures for Direct-Current Resistance Apparatus.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 02:27:18 pm
content: Old tech like a mirror galvo, plus new tech like laser pointers, can give you a very long baseline, even more if you fold it (and double the sensitivity) with an additional mirror.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 04:54:44 pm
content: What would be the resolution of a vintage mirror galvanometer, a strong laser, and the beam projected on the Moon surface?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 05:05:03 pm
content: There is a simple system described on p. 490 of Valley and Wallman,Vacuum Tube Amplifiers, vol 18 of the Radiation Laboratory Series, McGraw Hill 1948A laboratory galvanometer projects onto a differential phototube (two vacuum photodiodes in a single envelope), driving a simple 6SF5 high-mu triode amplifier, with feedback to the galvanometer coil.As drawn, this is to make a very low burden resistance microammeter, but it could be re-configured to make a null voltmeter.The very high gain from galvanometer coil current to grid voltage easily compensates for the drift in the DC input bias of the 6SF5.

author: lugaw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2023, 04:28:57 am
content: Quote from: alm on February 27, 2023, 12:49:47 pmThank you very much! I forgot it was part of Physics class. I had a null detector for a year now and could not find out about the millimeter ratings and google was not much help.

author: ivo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2023, 06:44:37 am
content: I am wondering if anyone has any experience to answer this question:I am looking at the possibility of buildingConrad Hoffman's nullmeterusing a dual precision opamp. One side could do rail-splitting, and the other side can do the actual difference multiplication.However most opamps also ask for say, a couple of 100n caps around their supplies. The problem is that given those caps will then be both loading the output of one opamp, while also being used to stabilise it as a whole, mostly it seems this would produce oscillations from capacitive loading, from what I can see trying to set up the circuits in LTSpice. Also the datasheets tend to warn against that in general as well. This is one advantage of the original component, TLE2426, it is designed to be stable after you add enough bulk capacitance. If interested, I was looking at anOPA2186currently, which seemed to have a nice combination of decent uV offset, low current bias, and low noise. So I have some queries-1. Anyone know if you're likely to see these oscillations in practice, trying to operate mostly a simple DC circuit with seconds of stabilisation time?2. If operating off some simpleton batteries, like 1x9V or 4xAAs, would it be possible to forgo the capacitors all-together? Would this be likely to ruin performance or noise of the opamp / circuit in use?3. Or anyone know of a scheme of compensation to allow for this design to work?If this design can be stabilized you could design a seriously tiny board to implement this instrument.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2023, 06:55:35 am
content: You do not need a precison opamp for the rail splitter with that null meter. Any opamp is ok.You may add a small resistor, like 22ohm at the opamp's output, but it is not needed (no need for a large cap at its output).The decoupling capacitor C1 at the first opamp (and the C2 at the splitter) should be wired between its Vcc and Vee (see below). Mind the 9V battery is floating.EDIT: improved the schematics for clarity

author: ivo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2023, 08:31:05 am
content: Quote from: imo on February 28, 2023, 06:55:35 amI know it is definitely not "needed", but these days the dual version of a lot of precision OPs are barely $0.5-1.50 more than than the single part.Ifit can be put to use, it saves size, BOM, part count, ease of design, and probably battery life.QuoteI know a lot of references suggest caps from Vcc - Gnd and Gnd - Vee, I'm not sure how necessary that is for opamps generally (instead of straight across Vcc - Vee), or specific to this application? Maybe a confusion with my understanding in their proper bypassing lies in that 80% of cases looked at these days, Gnd is also Vee?

author: Echo88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2023, 09:57:10 am
content: As a suggestion:Heres my working implementation based on a OPA170, chosen for its very low quiescent current.Simulation suggested 100R on OP-output is fine for stability, in reality it was of course not with such a big capacitive load and it oscillated, indicated at first by its high current draw of about 8mA instead of the specced 110µA.Thats why the 3k3 and 10nF were added, though i did not do a stability analysis and the values might be improved.I dont know if omitting caps like in ivos design is having any downsides.My AD8628-based nullmeter achieves about 200nVpp in a 0.1-10Hz bandwidth, still needs to solve some minor bugs and test it fully for every spec that can be found in usual nullmeter-datasheets.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2023, 10:52:34 am
content: With some 50-100 Ohm most OP-amps are OK for the rail splitter. So this could be something cheap like LM358, TLC271 or similar. Some capacitance from the virtual ground to the supply can be a good idea, but one usually does not need much.If looking for a precision OP-amp that can tolerate capacitance at the output the OPA202 is a good candidate.A single OP-amp for the input would have less effect from heating of the amplifier. With a low power part and a realtively low voltage this would be only a small effect.

author: leighcorrigall
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2023, 03:55:50 pm
content: I recently bought a null detector for my home lab.Combining a Fluke 5440B, 752A and an 845AR makes an excellent differential voltmeter with self-calibration capabilities based on the 732A. The thermal stability and linearity are good as well. When combined with a digital voltmeter, the output of the null detector can be measured to acquire the mean and standard deviation of the null. Since I already had everything but a null detector, the purchase was obvious. I paid approximately 100 USD for my unit. Anyone can get a decent null detector at a realistic price given enough patience and help from friends.Good luck!

author: ivo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2023, 05:57:19 pm
content: Quote from: leighcorrigall on February 28, 2023, 03:55:50 pmEh, I think this can depend a lot upon where you are living in the world 😅

author: lugaw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2023, 04:15:27 pm
content: Quote from: ivo on February 28, 2023, 05:57:19 pmI got my working Keithley 147 for $35.2USD shipped.

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2023, 04:32:56 pm
content: Quote from: lugaw on March 01, 2023, 04:15:27 pmThat's fine for bragging rights, but Ivo has a perfectly good and considerate point. I used to live in the US Pacific Northwest and everything was expensive and hard to come by. I now live in Southern California and as I walk out the door, I'm tripping over some free instrumentation that needs minimal repair (if even that) and goes right back in spec once fixed. And I still regard both places being relatively generous with the opportunities vs. others.And everyone has a budget, which needs to be managed so opportunity definitely makes a sizable difference.

author: lugaw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2023, 04:42:11 pm
content: I am just adding data points to ivo about test equipment price depends on where you are on part of the world. In the previous two country I lived at, I couldn't even find a local seller for a null meter.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2023, 06:07:11 pm
content: A decade or more ago when many local companies were replacing equipment or just shutting down, cheap test equipment was plentiful. Now the supply has dried up completely. We're starting to have hamfests again, but they're nothing like they were pre-covid.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2023, 09:25:24 am
content: As a proof of concept I dusted off my ADI's ADuC845 board (the 845 chip includes 2x 24bit SD ADCs and an 8052 mcu, ++), I put it into 160mV FS differential mode, 2x 1k resistors for input's protection with 47nF foil for blocking, I hanged an HC-10 BT on it, I powered it all from an old 9V wall adapter (transformer one), all I put into a small paper box. With some basic sw it reads the voltage, it does an adaptive EMA, sends out the voltage, stddev, chip temperature. I replaced the ADI's ref with a REF5025, but I doubt it is relevant in this app. I see the same as with my 34401A (but with a "better" resolution)..PS: added a quick measurement