Two phrases I'm sick of hearing; "open source" and "arduino" - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: glossywhite
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 12:40:05 am
content: All you ever hear about these days is "open source" (which is inherently not a good philosophy compared to "free software", but that's not the point) and "arduino" this "arduino" that.Is this "arduino" thing a fad, like the iDevices from Apple? Also, which moron came up with the name "wiring" for the language it uses? Is this some ploy for the software nerds to somehow appear "friendly" with the electronics techs, in a condescending way? Sorry, but this p*sses me off - at LEAST give the language a name which means something or relates to something from the heritage of the product. It's probably popular because it means that mere mortals now think they can code MCUs :-SOkay, I maybe have got this wrong, but all you ever hear is arduino and f***ing open source... as if it being open source suddenly (and magically) makes the crap name a brilliant name, and the project the most amazing platform JUST BECAUSE IT'S OPEN FLIPPING SOURCE!ughhhhh, pass me a bucket, this utopian bullshit is making me cringe. HEre we see some guys from the project waffling on about it as if they've just discovered a cure for cancer...:http://www.geek.com/articles/gadgets/arduino-the-documentary-how-open-source-hardware-became-cheap-and-fun-2011018/

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 01:01:46 am
content: Must say I find it irritating when I hear "program" called something else to make it sound "easier" - "patch", "sketch"...However anything that gets people interested in electronics has to be a good thing, although "Open Source" does sometimes appear to be an end in itself regardless of actual usefulness or quality...Sometimes ya just gets what ya pays for!

author: wd5gnr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 02:55:49 am
content: Well I'm glad it isn't just me. Long before I'd ever heard of an Arduino, I produced the "APP IV" (one of the APP serieshttp://www.awce.com/app4.htm). Guess what it had? An Atmel ATMega 8 with a bootloader and a serial port. The gcc libraries were included for the onboard features. You can use it with a USB cable. 10MHz is the only technical difference. We did sell quite a few of them (especially from articles in Nuts & Volts that featured them), but then the Arduino shows up. Open source board (yawn, its not a big deal -- power supply, IC, clock). The compiler is gcc but has a cute front end and a built-in "main" routine. If you look at the FAQ, you can use the Arduino software to drive an APP IV. So what's the big deal?Granted, because it has such critical mass it is nice that you can get the "shields" for it -- same way that every store has cr@p that fits an iPhone but no one has stuff for my Blackberry. But that's a chicken and egg problem. The Arduino didn't get popular because it had shields. It got shields because it was popular.So I couldn't help but feel a little cheated. Many of us had rolled out Arduino-like projects that didn't achieve nearly the success it has. Because its open source? Atmel provides bootloaders. I don't think many people who have started using Arduino are likely to modify the board design -- anyone who could modify it could probably lay it out from scratch in an hour or two. The software is cute, but underneath it is still gcc.Not to sound like sour grapes, but really? Personally, I've switched to cheap ARM boards and why those aren't more popular I have no idea. I don't sell any either -- so no ax to grind. But I can get a board in the 60MIPs range with 64K or RAM and boatload for flash for $30 or $40 with great compiler support. Unless I making more than a handful of an item, that's the way to go.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 03:29:09 am
content: Quote from: wd5gnr on January 11, 2011, 02:55:49 amThe Arduino got lucky and was the right thing at the right time, simple as that.Nothing new at all about Arduino or open hardware, or shield like plug-on boards, or anything else to do with it.The Arduino rode the new Hacker/Maker movement on the back of some bootstrap support from the creative arts industries.The rest is the snowball effect, not because of what it is or how good it is, but because it was simply there at the right time.Open Hardware pisses me off a bit too, and I've mentioned it before. It's not new, people (including myself) have been doing it for many many decades.Dave.

author: Chasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 03:36:12 am
content: Hacker, Maker, opening Hardware, Arduino - I saw something about this.Oops. Sorry, seems I can't turn of the youtube embedding.And to add some content: The Arduino Uno introduced me to the ATmega8U2. It's cheaper than the FT232RL and should work as well if not better for my purposes.Other than that, yeah, there is much hype and not necessarily as much content.

author: JohnS_AZ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 03:59:37 am
content: Quote from: wd5gnr on January 11, 2011, 02:55:49 amThis big deal is quite simply that it's a big deal.Sure there are no grand hardware or software innovations in the Arduino. What sets it aside from everything preceding it is the (originally unintended) marketing strategy. I've seen all sort of micro boards come out over the past 15 years and every one of them was pushed toward fairly astute hardware/software professionals or advanced amateurs. Novices need not apply. The Arduino, however, was designed and aimed at the utterly clueless. People terrified of technology at the chips and solder and code level. They pretty much said here's the Arduino. It's warm and cozy, it's easy, and it's not at all scary.I'm no newbie. The first programming I learned was on a 6805, and was written in machine code! We didn't even have an assembler. Bit banging with toggle switches and a 'load' button. Man, THOSE were the (fucking miserable) days!! I think that it's incredibly cool that kids and students have an introduction to electronics and software that is "friendly", and that doesn't have such a dauntingly steep learning curve. Plenty of them will write a few sketches, say that was cool, then go on to become accountants and lawyers. A few, however, will catch the spark. They'll say that was cool, but what's a PIC? an ARM? What's "C"?I believe that's the vast majority of Arduino users. People playing, having fun, and that's totally cool.Arduino is to electronic and software engineering as an Erector Set is to mechanical engineering.--on the other hand--What *I* find REALLY interesting (and maybe a little scary) is that I am personally aware of three different little start-ups that have products on the market that used the arduino for their product development, and are using that silly little $20 board to program their production ICs. Their products are simple, their design is solid, and in the one case where I got to review the code, it was really well done. maybe that's why some of the old timers get so testy. Three companies, three electronic products on the market, and not a single electronic or software engineering degree anywhere to be found.Scream at the avalanche all you want, it's still coming strait at you.

author: tyblu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 04:42:17 am
content: ROFLPerfect rant! 5 stars! Three thumbs up my butt! er.. wait a tic..

author: Chasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 05:02:25 am
content: Quote from: JohnS_AZ on January 11, 2011, 03:59:37 amThere is nothing new in the hardware, just a couple of datasheet circuits stitched together. Albeit after some cutting out of notnecessarilyneeded parts like i.e. various 100nF filter caps.I never took a look at the software.Quote from: JohnS_AZ on January 11, 2011, 03:59:37 amUser compatible. Plug and play. In short, they build it with a very high WAF.That is the proof that they were artists, not engineers.(WAF: Woman Acceptance Factor - aka will she let it stay in the living room.Not that engineers are supposed to know to know about the concept of another sex in the first place.)Quote from: JohnS_AZ on January 11, 2011, 03:59:37 amI think along that line too.There won't be many that want to take a closer look. - But since there are masses playing with it and thus getting exposure they would not get before there will be at lot of them in the end.Me linking the video above was not a complete joke, using an arduino board to automatically probe for UART or JTAG interfaces on several pins is an advanced step on the way to an engineering career/vocation.Quote from: JohnS_AZ on January 11, 2011, 03:59:37 amWell, it should not be necessary to use an actual arduino board in a product, unless you sell a shield. They are not bad, they are solid for what they do, but they are not state of the art either. Not even application note or datasheet level because some parts like afore mentioned filter caps have been stop lossed.You can take the layout, rip it off for everything but the false header spacing, and don't even have to credit them because it is all in the datasheets of the used components. Actually if you take a look at those AN and datasheets you will have a more reliable product at a couple of cent cost.I have to guess, but I say the problem is manufacturing a populated board for them.

author: JohnS_AZ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 05:24:41 am
content: The company I mentioned is using an Arduino to program raw parts (I sold them a ZIF socket, and ended up doing an ESD audit for them), and then solder the programmed parts into their own boards which do indeed have all the bypass caps plus EOS/ESD protection.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 05:49:52 am
content: hate arduino? = plain jealous!haha!you can argue its gcc, sketch, wiring, not a big deal etc. and you forgot what purpose it is, to be able for new student to get easily into electronics, its all about education, and the rest is like mr dave said, snowball effect.and let me tell one secret to ya all jealous people.... no matter how good your product is, without good promotion/marketing, you will not sell, the other way... no matter how crap it is you can argue to your miserable soul, but if the marketing is there, everybody will be using... and enjoying it, mostly to most people who know shit. so your choice.to be frank, at some part, i also a bit discomfort about the ideology of "open source open hardware", but... look at the bright side.

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 06:52:56 am
content: Quote from: shafri on January 11, 2011, 05:49:52 amIf you're going to learn how to do something why not learn how to do it right the first time? I'm currently figuring out how to program PICs using the Hi-Tech C compiler. I'm learning tons by having to read the documentation on how everything works.One of the things I really hated about the microcontrollers course I took was the compiler did pretty much everything for you. I didn't learn a whole ton from that class.As for the terminology, I just hate these made up terms. Call something what it is. We're gonna end up with a whole group of designers using these silly words once they move past the arduino.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 07:27:49 am
content: You tell it Brother!Whenever I hear the fucking Arduino losers talking about their "sketches" I am inclined to ram their Arduinos up their arse, "Wriing" their arses, if you get the idea. It is a fucking program, not a fucking "sketch" for fucking's sake, written in a fucking language, that stole every-fucking-thing from C++. Hey, is C++, just with the most stupid fucking name ever invented for a fucking programming language.The Arduino is a mediocre board, with fucking layout mistakes all over the fucking place. Some mistakes now even sold to us as an ingenious invention, like the headers not aligned, so "you can't mistakenly insert a shield the wrong way". Hah, ha, ha. Those amateurs didn't get the fucking headers aligned and now it is an ingenious invention.Oh, did I just say "shield". Fuck. Let me be the first to ram the fucking "shields" up their arses, too. It is a daughter board, or plug-in board, not a fucking "shield".The Arduino wouldn't have had a fucking chance in the market wouldn't fucking Maker Magazine have promoted it so heavily. Whenever these Maker potheads forget about journalistic integrity they promote the fucking Arduinao - and they often forgot about journalistic integrity. They needed to sell that thing in their Maker Shed, and that's what they did by acclaiming every fucking blinking LED on a fucking Arduino, and writing one Arduino product placement article after the other.The Arduino, made by potheads for potheads, promoted by potheads.

author: cybergibbons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 10:11:48 am
content: I find the vitriol of the Arduino haters quite amusing at times. Why has it become so popular? Partially because it is open source, allowing many people to manufacture boards, derivatives, shields, add-ons and software. Yes, it could have been done without open source, but why not formalise the freedom to share and improve upon something?Quote from: Lance on January 11, 2011, 06:52:56 amWhy are you not using ASM if you want to do it right the first time? They are just layers of abstraction - ASM, C++, Wiring. It makes using the Arduino so simple that someone totally new to electronics and programming can get a project running in a day. What's wrong with that? Why do they need to know how to do it properly?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 11:07:39 am
content: Quote from: cybergibbons on January 11, 2011, 10:11:48 amwhy are you not designing mcu from transistors, logic gates etc from the first time? if you want into the real deal of electronics? why dont you want to learn how to manufacture p or n-channel material at home? so a bunch of hobbiest from around the globe can start the hobby from p & n-channel?Quote from: BoredAtWork on January 11, 2011, 07:27:49 amyou are lost in the midst of whatever era you are living in. its historic reason that A,B,C programming language were developed for a long time now.well, simple. if you think you are good enough and arduino is sux with its stupid name. why dont you invent something thats it so marvelous for the generation to benefit.all i can see is a child complaining to his friend about how sux his father is.

author: TheWelly888
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 11:08:11 am
content: Open source hardware - that reminds me of the Wintel PC that so many of us use today originated from the fact that IBM made their first PC hardware open source thus allowing clones to enter the market and ensuring dominace.Well we know just crap the PC is today, the worst pieces of engineering ( or rather non-engineering ) kludge in widespread use today!

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 11:26:46 am
content: Quote from: TheWelly888 on January 11, 2011, 11:08:11 amyoung people are lost of what engineering is all about, they understand it as a series of formalized mathematical equation, or theoritical explanation that they swore by it to the death. they simply forgot the basic true form/purpose of engineering itself... "solving human being problem", kludge or not kludge.yet people complain about how crap it is, yet they used it to complain it in eevblog and do whatever they like. how "disthankfull"Quote from: TheWelly888 on January 11, 2011, 11:08:11 ampeople will always complain, open source or not, dominance or not. because thats the nature of human being, mostly. they want to prove their idea that they are the only one who is right and they loved to create hot gossip. people complain microsoft want to dominate everything (because they are not open source), and funny people will complain as well, if its about the open source. and more funny, for no particular concrete reason.more knowledgable people will not complain, they do it. only less knowledgable that is keep complaining, and later... asking, this kind of people are simply...lost.

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 11:47:45 am
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on January 11, 2011, 07:27:49 amHi Boredatwork!It's another fucking Arduino loser here. I just wanted to take a couple of minutes away from the bong to put in my five cents' worth. Although the Arduino team's naming conventions and commercial aspirations of a certain publisher seem to agitate you, there is a purpose to all this pothead stuff: (fromhttp://arduino.cc)"Arduino is an open-source electronics prototyping platform based on flexible, easy-to-use hardware and software. It's intended for artists, designers, hobbyists, and anyone interested in creating interactive objects or environments".My interpretation of this is that the Arduino system gives non-engineering people an easy entry into a technical world that may have been generally inaccessible. Yes, the names are silly, and yes it wasn't the first of anything or some great leap of technology, but it does what it set out to do.One of the benefits of this system is that there are quite a few people that move on, and head off into more conventional electronics areas as they want to know more, and have built up confidence with their success in building Arduino-based projects to take on further study. And some of them go on to university/college and study electrical engineering and so on. This cannot be a bad thing. After helping out and observing Arduino classes, it is great to see people of all ages (including professionals in other disciplines) make something work in just a few hours. This is what it is all about.As more levels of technology become more accessible, the lines between professional and amateur and tinkerer and experimenter are going to blur. Just like they did with computers in the 1980s. It is just a fact of life. At the end of the day, if you don't like it - relax, just ignore it. I don't like rugby league, but I don't yell up and down and curse about it. I just move on.

author: cybergibbons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 01:06:31 pm
content: Quote from: TheWelly888 on January 11, 2011, 11:08:11 amI'm not sure the concept of open source existed when the first IBM machines were made. They did make their standards open so that other manufacturers could interface to their hardware. Apple hardware is largely the same though - they use a different processor architecture and interfaces that are largely documented and open, but as a system it is closed. But then, in the past, Apple used their legal might to quash anyone trying to clone their hardware.Apple now use Intel architecture as well. They would be able to do this if it weren't for the open standards in use. They rely largely on aesthetics and OS to sell their product.Windows is very much closed source, but has documented interfaces.Mac OS X is a blend of closed and open source, with the core parts being open source.It's important to note that some open interfaces doesn't mean a project is open source, they are very different.So your post implies some form of causal link between opening up the design of something, and that design being bad. I'm not sure you can really make that link, especially if you are contrasting to Apple.

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 02:08:58 pm
content: There are two reasons Arduino got where it is. Firstly, it got big coverage in Make magazine (owned by O'Reilly). Secondly, the software. It is free, moderately easy to use and - most importantly - easy to install, without pages of licensing to go through, web registration and all the rest. Most pro software makes you jump through hoops to get a basic multi-GB installation up and running, and thats before you have to run through the patches. It is also marketed at the arts market, which is orders of magnitude bigger than the home engineering market.There was no such programming language as A by the way. It started as BCPL (Basic Combined Programming Language) this was stripped down to its essentials and became purely B. C evolved from this. There was discussion as to whether the successor would be called D or P (from BCPL) but in the end C++ (essentially C+1) emerged. C# (misleadingly called C sharp) is purely a concatenation of two "++" signs above each other.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 02:26:59 pm
content: Quote from: Zad on January 11, 2011, 02:08:58 pmAPL aka Ahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_(programming_language)... 20 years older than me. maybe its not a continuation to B, but who knows? they got the idea of that silly "B" (if you want to call it silly!) from the earlier "A", i cannot say i'm the expert in the history, somehow i got lost too, but at least, i'm not complaining.

author: ajcrm125
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 02:35:46 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 11, 2011, 03:29:09 amThat's it right there...

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 04:30:10 pm
content: I don't have extensive micro experience but I am picking it up slowly. I am an EE by profession but the only programming that I might do is all math stuff on the computer. My microcontroller courses were all done in assembly and that was years ago. I have experience with C but I am certainly no expert. So speaking with medium experience, I don't really have any interest in the Arduino mainly due to the lack of availability of the atmega chips. I really just want a chip programmer where I can program the chip and put it into my own nice neat and efficient designs.I see all these projects around about people doing so much stuff with the arduino and than you see pictures and its this elaborate mess with wires coming out of this big blue board and its all shoved in a box like a final design. This just blows my mind. I would atleast take the time to simply use the arduino as a programming platform and put the chip onto a PCB or etched board and share the design as atmega based design! I feel like its more like a Playschool brand mock up microcontroller for toddlers to learn on.p.s. I don't get the pothead reference?

author: XynxNet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 04:47:04 pm
content: Quote from: Time on January 11, 2011, 04:30:10 pmNot very nicely said, but I think thats exactly what it wants to be, an affordable tool for education and beginners and amateurs, who otherwise would not be able to use microcontrollers for their projectidears.In my opinion Arduino does that job wonderfully. It is cheap, easy to get as a preasembled module, easy to use and has a large community with lots of designs you can build or buy as daughterboards. I dont mind if they call programs an daughterboards other names. Why not, if that makes it more acceptable to users who aren't strongly technical interested.

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 04:53:49 pm
content: Quote from: Time on January 11, 2011, 04:30:10 pmI think it's something along the lines of potheads are lazy, and people who use arduinos are lazy. Therefore people who use the arduino are potheads.Quote from: XynxNet on January 11, 2011, 04:47:04 pmIt does do that job decently well. I think it's just the silly terminology that folks despise more than the concept. In response to this:Quote from: shafri on January 11, 2011, 11:07:39 amI see the validity of your argument. To keep from sounding like a complete ponce I would then have to say "doing it right", would be using an industry accepted standard. Assembly and C both fit into that. As for making PN material, I don't have the tools, and school keeps me pretty busy.

author: JohnS_AZ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 05:17:00 pm
content: Quote from: Time on January 11, 2011, 04:30:10 pmAt the level of most Arduino users I'd have to agree, and I think that's great!Quote from: Time on January 11, 2011, 04:30:10 pmI'm working on a couple of projects that do exactly that; Program the device on the Arduino and then move the chip to the target board (that I plan on selling). I'm not THAT unique, so I have to presume that there are plenty of other folks out there developing the same sorts of products and kits. Heck, even Dave says that he's working on an Arduino project.So why use the Arduino when there are so many better options? Easy ... because there are a COUPLE HUNDRED THOUSAND existing users out there. I would bet that right now there are more people who own Arduinos than own PicKits. So, stand pat on some engineering "ideal"? or aim at the masses of people who are obviously willing to buy? For me, I'm going to gravitate toward the folks with their wallets open.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 05:54:14 pm
content: Quote from: Time on January 11, 2011, 04:30:10 pmpothead == someone smoking potpot == marijuanaartists == potheadsArduino made for artistsYou get the idea? People completely stoned and then believing they are embedded engineers, just because they do the Arduino thing. This is like someone downloading a ringtone to his cell phone and therefore believing he is an RF engineer now.I don't care if the potheads play with electronics. I, however, despise them, when they make a big fuzz out of blinking an LED, calling that a master thesis and getting a fucking masters degree in arts for this. They are like parents of a child that first manages to use the potty when shitting and the parents make a big fuzz about the shit. Potheads, I don't care about your shit. Keep it to yourself, so I don't have to face the shit and smell it.And did you note that the Arduino "inventors" like to insult EEs? There is some whining piece out there where some of them makes fun of the way engineers attempt embedded engineering. Oh, these engineers actually think learning electronics is a good idea? How stupid of those engineers. Potheads. Would these fucking potheads had a little bit more clue they wouldn't have made so many mistakes with the hardware and software. Fuck, I don't tell these potheads how to do art. So please fucking potheads, don't tell me about how to do engineering.And while I am at it, let me correctQuoteWhat was meant wasHey,it[meaning Wiring] is C++, just with the most stupid fucking name [meaning Wiring] ever invented for a fucking programming language.And while I am still in the mood, do you believe the story of the birth of the Arduino? Doyoubelieve it? Fuck, I don't. Designed to meet the cost of a pizza? Ha, have you seen the original price of the Arduino, before the Chinese clones appeared? Must have been a fucking expensive gourmet pizza. Give me a break. That story of the pizza smells like a fucking marketing lie (Make PR department maybe?).

author: JohnS_AZ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 06:09:49 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on January 11, 2011, 05:54:14 pmJeeze, you make it sound like someone has tied your Dilbert butt to your cubical chair and forced you to watch Arduino videos.There's an old OLD joke ..."I went to the doctor and told him it hurts when I do this. (rotates arm up and down) The doctor said 'Don't do that'"If the Aruino pisses you off so badly, stop reading / watching videos about it.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 06:20:22 pm
content: so the problem is with those fucking potheads, not the arduino.Quote from: BoredAtWork on January 11, 2011, 05:54:14 pmwell, maybe some politics in there.Quote from: BoredAtWork on January 11, 2011, 05:54:14 pmsorry, i misunderstood that line.Quote from: JohnS_AZ on January 11, 2011, 06:09:49 pmthis thread triggered him. let him do his talk, sometime i enjoy this kind of environmentQuote from: JohnS_AZ on January 11, 2011, 06:09:49 pmthis thread is about pissing the arduino off. and sure someone (or many) will get into the debate.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 07:01:58 pm
content: I don't know why anyone would get pissed off with the term open source. I think free software is a more silly name because most people think of software which can be obtained free of charge rather than software which you are free to modify and redistribute at will.All right may be being open source doesn't automatically make it an excellent produce but being transparent and easier to modify is definitely an advantage to proprietary software which can't be modified.As far as PCs are concerned: fair enough the old Intel architecture was way behind its competitors but I wouldn't say the same is true for x64. As far as I'm concerned it's the most dominant operating system which is the main problem and being closed source doesn't help either. The hardware being open has driven down prices and made computers affordable to everyone.

author: ColinA
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 11:28:54 pm
content: I give this thread a 10++ on the rant scale..Paste open source on anything these days and it seems people jump onboard. Like most things open source where is the substance? And like other major open source products rhetoric will die down overtime. Will there be a few people that make award wining designs, yes.Arduino = Gateway drug to EE

author: glossywhite
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2011, 12:48:30 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on January 11, 2011, 07:27:49 amAnger management?

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2011, 02:06:34 pm
content: I don't think it is a gateway drug as such, it is more like those basic IT courses that make people think they are suddenly an experienced IT consultant after 2 weeks. The trouble is that management actually believe this and it drags down the perceived quality and value of real engineers.

author: glossywhite
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2011, 04:39:24 pm
content: Quote from: Zad on January 12, 2011, 02:06:34 pmManagement & marketing are usually educated idiots, AKA morons. Fact.

author: Myrmidon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 12, 2011, 04:53:00 pm
content: Real engineers would use whatever they had to, to get the job done.I use Arduino, PIC's, AVR's and freescale boards at Uni. I don't bitch and whine about any of them. This is just typical jealousy of something doing well, you see it in all walks of life. I recall for a while it was PIC's that were getting the same treatment.Ridiculous!Also, as Arduino is an AVR ucontroller, and you can program it in actual ambedded C, I fail to see what the hell your point is.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2011, 07:06:28 pm
content: Quote from: Myrmidon on January 12, 2011, 04:53:00 pmagreed... and want to make an addition. you can program arduino not just in the plain C (AVR Studio) or "wiring crap" or "sketch" that people complaining about, but you can do it in asm as well, if you want to.

author: wardenclyffe
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2011, 09:41:51 pm
content: Yea I posted that same documentary a few days ago but I have to say I am not a fan of the Arduino either.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2011, 09:46:09 pm
content: Quote from: Myrmidon on January 12, 2011, 04:53:00 pmIt is not done well, it is a fucking piece of shit. Lets take v2.0a, I.e. major version 2, with a tiny revision "a" - definitely not the first prototype batch.It already starts with the number of mounting holes. Three. What fucking pothead puts only three mounting holes on a board, so that when you put it on standoffs it falls over?What fucking pothead puts the 6 pin ISP header too close to the AVR, so you can't mount a standard shrouded header (to avoid plugging in the programmer the wrong way, esp when dealing with students)? And by the way, how much pot must they have smoked to call the header ICSP (A Microchip term), instead of ISP (the correct Atmel term)?But that isn't enough. Because, what fucking pothead puts one of the mounting holes in a position that it also prevents to mount a standard shrouded header?And what fucking pothead not only uses two different footprints for T1 and T2, but also mixes them up? T1 should have a three-in-a-row footprint, but has a triangle one. T2 should have a triangle one, but has a three-in-a-row? And by the way, don't get me started on that fake RS232 interface they build with these transistors. A design back then widely acclaimed by Arduino fanboys as ingenious. Only, that the Arduino potheads copied that design, and it is fare from ingenious, as it doesn't work within the electrical limits of RS232.Enough? No. The fucking potheads forgot to provide solder pads for the grounding brackets of the "DB"9.And, of course, the non-aligned headers.And another fail, the female headers, instead of mail headers on the Arduino. You put the mechanical more robust part of a connection on the more valuable or more important part. Because replacing it is more risky. Since male headers are more robust, the Arduino should have them, and the shields should have female headers to mate.What did you say? "something well done"? It just takes two minutes and a clue to figure that they botched that PCB layout and the mechanical stuff. In a v2.0a, not in a prototype. And these potheads want to show engineers how it should be done?But once again, I don't care if the potheads play with it and love it. Just don't try to sell it to me as "well done", don't sell it to me as ingenious engineering, and don't try to force it down my throat. And I am definitely not jealousy. I would be ashamed if that PCB was my work.

author: cybergibbons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2011, 10:57:08 pm
content: I've got no idea where to start with that... the design has come on a long way from where you mention.It's had 4 mounting holes for a long time.ICSP and ISP are interchangeable terms. It doesn't matter really, does it? Why not use both?I've got TI dev boards and Altera dev boards that don't have shrouded headers. I've had motherboards with the IDE not shrouded. Explain why it matters?They've been fully SMT for a fair while, so triangle or 3 in a row isn't an issue.Though the RS232 worked with practically every PC, so it didn't seem to be a problem anyway.It's USB now, so no DB9. Not all DB9s have solder pads for grounding anyway.The female headers make it easy to insert normal jumpers between the board and a breadboard. It's a £20 board, and the chance of the headers breaking is low. I can also think of plenty of counter examples - VGA, DVI, 3.5mm audio.You can base your opinions on a 3 year old board, or look to what is on offer today.

author: glossywhite
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2011, 12:44:10 am
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on January 12, 2011, 09:46:09 pmIf good design is not immediately evident, then it evidently is not good design. I am a designer, and I dislike being told that something is something, when it is very obvious by just looking at it, that it isn't.I agree with what you're saying, although I don't have an "Ardweeeener" to look at, nor do I desire one.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2011, 04:10:50 am
content: bored or glossy, i think you should start re-design arduino,or perharp rename it to something more sensible. sell it and promote good ee/software design along the way. some members here are attempting arduino like stuff with pic, i think thats a good thing. if you want to fuck the potheads, then by all mean, give them some lesson and,... fuck them!

author: williefleete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2011, 12:05:45 pm
content: whatever next. you gonna start knocking the PICAXE users next. i know picaxe isnt exactly industry standard etc and is relatively slow but some things have there place, just let them be, if you dont like it dont complain about it.im pretty neutral about things until i try something i havnt played with arduino and i personally wouldnt mind a shot at it, at the moment im hooked on the picaxe 08M for most of my projects

author: JohnS_AZ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2011, 11:09:39 pm
content: I guess the guys at FTDI are just a bunch of potheads.Quotehttp://embedded-computing.com/ftdi-2-0-connectivity

author: tyblu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2011, 11:35:23 pm
content: Did someone say pot, 'cause I want in the next time it gets passed around.

author: the_raptor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2011, 01:47:10 am
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on January 12, 2011, 09:46:09 pmNo. They don't.They want to make electronics more accessible to "designers and artists". Arduino is designed so an artist can plug in some wires and some sensors and get stuff happening without knowing pretty much anything about electronics or micro-controllers. Some of us who know more about electronics like it because the large amount of peripherals allows complex projects to be done without having to design a PCB.And seriously people whining about the naming? Yeah because "C" is a completely sensible and obvious thing to call a programming language. Also WTF is an "ATMEL"? "Wiring" is a lot more sensible then most programming language names (Ruby, Python, Perl, Java, PHP, C#) as it is referring to the graphical analogy used by the IDE. Arduino is called Arduino because they named it after a pub on a whim back when it was a university project.

author: flapjackboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2011, 08:29:07 am
content: Just to add my voice to the pro-Arduino side.Arduino is not, nor has it ever claimed to be aimed at electronics professionals therefore, any criticisms that can be leveled at it by said professionals are irreleventbecause you're not their target market.Being the consumate professionals you are, you'd never use one, so why the hostility towards it?Yes, some poor design choices were made in the earlier versions, but in the current board designs, most of these have been rectified and those that haven't such as the header spacing are there for legacy reasons. Sure, the header spacing was a design slip, but if by pure accident, the design does indeed prevent you from plugging in a shield the wrong way, why not let them claim it as a feature? After all, many products we use today are the results of mistakes during design. Take Post-It notes for instance. The adhesive used on them was discovered by accident whilst Spencer Silver was working on another project for 3M. Just because something happened by mistake doesn't mean it can't have useful applications.At the end of the day, you guys bitching about the Arduino on here isn't going to make a blind bit of difference. You don't use it anyway, so it doesn't affect your lives in any meaningful way. Like I said, the Arduino isn't marketed towards you guys, so why throw your toys out of the pram when it gets so much coverage? If it sparks an interest in electronics in people, isn't that a good thing?

author: glossywhite
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2011, 01:43:45 pm
content: Let me tell you something; until "Ardweeennnnooo" has a more sensible name for it's IDE and product, it just appears to be a toy for people who don't want to invest the time and knowledge into doing things properly, by knowing how to code in areallanguage. Yes, it is great that it is an entry to MCUs for those who are clueless, but "sketches"?... "wiring"? Really? ha ha ha!! Here comes a Dave quote:"You gotta be SHITTTTTTT'N ME!"

author: flapjackboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2011, 02:05:04 pm
content: Quote from: glossywhite on January 18, 2011, 01:43:45 pmView nice from up there in your ivory tower?EDIT: And what, pray tell would you classify as a suitable name? Something that more resembles a part number like the EZ430-F2013 - MSP430? Yeah, hardly rolls easily off the tongue, does it?Look, we get that you don't like it. That's obvious, but in the grand scheme of things don't you think you're letting your intellectual elitism get the better of you here? Real language? I suppose you hard code every instruction in raw binary then, since anything else is simply an abstraction from the core logic of the device and therefore not a 'real' language.It's elitism such as yours that really get my back up. So what if the Arduino doesn't meet some arbitrary standard of design perfection that you have set. It does a job and it does it well enough that there are many thousands of people who have gained an interest in electronics and many more, like myself who are rekindling a spark that had nearly gone out.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2011, 02:14:33 pm
content: Quote from: glossywhite on January 18, 2011, 01:43:45 pmwhat real languange? i programmed arduino in C (Arduino IDE), is it not a real language? not it is?Quote from: glossywhite on January 18, 2011, 01:43:45 pmAnger management?

author: Chasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2011, 02:20:26 pm
content: Quote from: glossywhite on January 18, 2011, 01:43:45 pmNot really, in this case it would have been "Marketing made me change the product."

author: flapjackboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2011, 03:05:30 pm
content: Oh and in case you didn't notice during your rant about the 'bad design' of the Arduino, the original serial board (i.e. the one you ripped into) did have your precious male headers as can clearly be seenhere.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2011, 04:16:59 pm
content: not ranting this?http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardMega

author: glossywhite
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2011, 10:47:43 pm
content: You guys are LOL-worthy, seriously. I was merely suggesting that the names were rubbish, and let's face it - they are. It's not really important, and it is ONLY my opinion - noone is holding a knife to your neck, making you nod in agreeance.This is like listening to the PC vs Mac fanboys throwing their "ball" back and forth, trying to score points in an endless and futile "war" of who is right, and who is wrong. I just think the names are laughable, and that's about it really.I'll let you continue your dull little rants in peace - I'm outa here, have a great day folks - it ain't worth getting upset over, okay.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2011, 11:35:05 pm
content: how about renaming it to "booby" or "blondie" or "chicky" etc. the op dont like italian. and i think the problem with most english people pronouncing it because the lower education system (teach how to spell and pronounce) is still not complete.

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2011, 12:25:09 am
content: Could hatred for the Arduino bring Microchip and Atmel fanboys together?

author: Chasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2011, 01:11:42 am
content: Quote from: Lance on January 19, 2011, 12:25:09 amThat would be very much against the fanboy definition.Arduinos use Atmel so that is also very much against the Atmel fanboy definition.And then the hatred for the Arduino is very much focused on the software side of things where it exactly does what it is supposed to.So I'd say that this is rather about C fanboys thay anything else.And absolutely everyone knows what a great language C is, especially those who ever heard about infosec.flame on.

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2011, 01:38:08 am
content: All I have to say now is thank you for the amusing discussions

author: flapjackboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2011, 05:03:17 am
content: Quote from: glossywhite on January 18, 2011, 10:47:43 pmTROOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLL!!! In the dungeon!

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2011, 09:39:57 am
content: Quote from: glossywhite on January 18, 2011, 01:43:45 pmer, that's exactly what Arduino is designed it to be - ISTR it even says something like 'prototyping platform for artists' on the PCB. It's for people that want a quick & easy way to get their ideas working. They never claimed it to be anything else.You are not their target market - they don't care what you think.Although if you want a quick & cheap AVR prototyping platform, there's a 6-pin ISP header so you can ignore all the silly-named software.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2011, 09:50:52 am
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on January 12, 2011, 09:46:09 pmSorry but I have to call Bollocks on that onePins aremucheasier to bend than (decent) header sockets are to break.Expansion boards will never be used on their own. so their pins can be protected in foam or whatever when not in use.You can poke solid-core wire into header sockets.Totally agree about most of the other points, but I suspect this was just historical accident - when the original layout was done they couldn't have imagined how popular it would become, and by the time it took off it was too late to change.

author: allanw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2011, 02:58:00 am
content: Heh, some of you guys are gonna flip at this. $1300 3-d printer MakerBot:http://www.prestonlee.com/2011/01/18/makerbot-thing-o-matic-3d-printer-print-pictures-product-review/It has an Arduino Mega in it:http://www.flickr.com/photos/prestonlee/5266832169/#I believe it controls all the motors etc off it.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2011, 03:15:02 am
content: Quote from: allanw on January 22, 2011, 02:58:00 ami've seen such a machine back in the U that can carve steel to shapes, and i believe that will cost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollar. now this fun plastic 3D shaping machine that i saw in the documentary, only 1K++. who would have provide/design/open source/study for you such an access to such a device? i recall, the guy (inventor) said, building it is more than the arduino alone and beyond than his expectation. so... its true that there is more of designing, researching than the arduino alone. but the arduino has made this guy started in the first place. and the guy mentioned, he knows shit about ee, so... doesnt this means something to ee people? you could have done better guys! other than just keep complaining. Cheers.

author: flapjackboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2011, 05:49:49 am
content: Quote from: shafri on January 22, 2011, 03:15:02 amMy sentiments exactly.Build a better platform or STFU.

author: glossywhite
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2011, 04:34:22 pm
content: Not impressed the way that strangers are being judged; seems a little naive, as the chances that you actually know the people you are casting personal aspersions upon, is a probability of about 0.001%. Also quite amusing is the odd placement of exclamation marks when asking questions, in place of a "?". There's a LOT of attitude in this forum, is itreallyneccessary - are these thingsthatimportant to you guys?Out of interest (and not malice), is this you, flapjackboy?:**image deleted**If so, I have kinda summised a little about you from Googling, and apologise if I have wound you up. If I am correct in thinking that the term "aspie32" which I found, relates to you, then I think I should cut you some more slack.Take care :-)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2011, 07:21:05 pm
content: Quote from: glossywhite on January 22, 2011, 04:34:22 pmYour correct about attitude RECENTLY, it was only the other day that I was saying to Dave (our admin) that the forum was "well behaved" and how I'd never seen a discussion "get out of hand", sadly the words were hardly out my mouth when "attitude" started to appearYes there are some people with a bit of an attitude and if I may say so they are all recent members - no names mentioned.If we want to talk about attitude why don't you reread your initial post you started this topic with ? Now I've not been reading the whole 5 pages of this topic but I'm getting complaints and if you ask me it started on the wrong foot in the first place.Perhaps we should all remember that there is no right or wrong way to do something,Getting back to the topic at hand I personally am crap on MCU's I spent 3 years trying with assembler and gave up. It was only with the simplicity of BASIC that I can bearly code an MCU. I don't care for the arduino as I'm practical enough to put an MCU on a breadbord and wire it up and them make a final PCB. I think the maker and haker comunities are the ones that are playing with this sort of stuff and most of us on here are more hardcore electronics although some use the arduino in certain circumstances for quikies. Anyone may choose any method they like, I can't see the problem. If someone wants to use an inneficient method: let themIf you want to go on such a crusade why not go after microsoft who have done for years exactly what you complain of ?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2011, 11:25:31 pm
content: Quote from: glossywhite on January 22, 2011, 04:34:22 pmGlossyWhite, I have had half a dozen complaints about your posts now, that's half a dozen too many.BTW, your first post had more attitude than all the other posts combined.By all means bitch and moan and argue about the design, technical or marketing details of the Arduino all you want, I found it interesting enough that I talked about this thread on TheAmpHour. But personal attacks or comments will not be tolerated and are not in the spirit of this forum.Play nice or you are not welcome here.Simon is right, we were just talking the other day about how the moderators didn't have to do much here but combat spam, and how generally nice everyone played here on the forum. Then all of a sudden the complaints roll in. Any apparent "attitude" on the forum is indeed very recent.RegardsDave.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2011, 12:20:43 am
content: Getting back to topic, I'll have to give Arduino the big tick!Not because it is revolutionary, not because it offers some engineering holy grail but because it has offered the most approachable entry level path for newbie in years. Not the hardware particularly but the way the whole Arduino phenomenon is proving attractive.The "swinging dicks" can dis Aduino but you have to question the motives, do people want EE to appear an exclusive club? Is stroking personal egos more important than encouraging growth in hobby and small business electronics?At a time when most of the parts industry (well at least here in AU) has dropped component supply in favour of Chinese home theatre sales, or has devoted en ever greater proportion of the shelf space to sale of fart gadgets, the emergence of new start-up suppliers is a positive boon.No an established hardware hacker isn't likely to do too many bulk buys from the new Arduino based sales channels, nor is any serious developer likely to use Arduino as as the basis for any product they hope to market commercially. But isn't that missing the point.Arduino for all it's flaws has created a level of interest and enthusiasm unseen for a decade. Sure many of those newbies will eventually lose interest. Is that any different from more established pathways? But for some creative people Arduino will offer an entry level that they will eventuall outgrow. Arduino can offer a means to spark a passion.Seriously do we all have to etch every PCB ourselves or do we need to machine code every MCU we encounter to be credible? I don't think so, different horses for different courses. Arduino is arguably one of the best newbie pony rides about.Hats off to those who created Arduino, I only wish I had had the idea to present something so simple so simply. Sour grapes of themmarketingpresenting it better than you will never be a good look.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2011, 12:31:46 am
content: Quote from: shafri on January 22, 2011, 11:57:57 pmHow about we leave all the personal accusation out. It never been very successful strategy to put out fires with gasoline.Quote from: shafribut for whatever reason you are not! The admin in chief has just said his piece, how about we all leave it that, play nice and let those who are admins do their admin biz?Cheers shafri, lets all keep on with whatever positive contributions we can muster.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2011, 12:43:41 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 23, 2011, 12:31:46 amright! i thought i could give some fanboys a lesson. the op deleted the post, so i did mine, hope they both read.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2011, 08:40:57 am
content: I get the impression that Arduino is used more by those into software and other stuff. I joine the local hacker group but soon lost interest as they were all software geeks that like to make stuff happen fast and the arduino was ideal for them. I expressed my views on it as i prefer to make up my own hardware and software package by using the PIC of my choice and the software of my choice with the option to swap any of those two parts as i see fit. As it happens I soon left the hackers group because I was more into circuit design they more into software although now they have expanded I might rejoin if i have the time.I was able to write in basic a nice little piece of software I'm very proud of and will be the core to a product i could easily market, hopefully I'll get into C soon but assembler was just a waste of time, I've not got the head for it, I take m,y hat off to anyone that can do assembler but i find that for my needs basic does fine and I believe that with C I'll be in the best software compromise to get what i want done with the least effort but retaing the most control and flexibility

author: flapjackboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2011, 11:33:33 am
content: Quote from: Simon on January 23, 2011, 08:40:57 amThen the hackerspace wasn't worth joining at that time, imho. If they couldn't see the value your skills and knowledge brought to the group as a whole, they started the hackerspace for the wrong reasons.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2011, 01:39:21 pm
content: well I'm not good enough to achieve much in Basic anyhow, really it was a case of we had different areas of interest. they in playing with models me in making dedicated electronics and nothing they wanted to do was in my scope of building.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2011, 02:19:08 pm
content: they are called "cracker" last time when i got involved in such a thing... not "hacker". cracker only want the exploit, not want to invent, find or think!

author: glossywhite
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2011, 02:47:57 pm
content: Hi guys, hope you could take a look at my other thread when you have some time:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=2317.0Thank you all

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2011, 03:04:13 pm
content: Quote from: glossywhite on January 23, 2011, 02:47:57 pmbuy us some beers ok?!

author: glossywhite
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2011, 03:15:26 pm
content: Quote from: shafri on January 23, 2011, 03:04:13 pmYour beer is in the mail, honest

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2011, 03:49:27 pm
content: Quote from: shafri on January 23, 2011, 02:19:08 pmwell they seem to be more interested in a system level design than a device level design, some have electronics knowledge but I suppose when you doing a social design it's easier to take existing modules than start designing at a component level.