The New Patent Law in the US...why? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: TheRuler8510
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2014, 02:50:22 am
content: Does anyone care to comment on the new patent law (first to file) in the US? It seems bad to me.It seems like a law intended to increase employment of lawyers while at the same time, making it hard on start-up tech companies.I think Dave was in favor of it in one video, but I cannot figure out why...maybe he does not realize the downside.Regards,

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2014, 04:04:51 am
content: Quote from: TheRuler8510 on August 28, 2014, 02:50:22 amIf you want patents to work internationally you need to harmonise their principals. Most countries use first to file, as they have found it impractical to figure out who was first to invent. I believe a lot of US patent court time is spent arguing about who invented first.For a fluff patent, which is generally just a idea someone came up with one day, there is at least a well defined day on which that idea appeared. For serious patents, that result from some substantial R&D, there is no one magic day of invention.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2014, 04:38:19 am
content: Quote from: TheRuler8510 on August 28, 2014, 02:50:22 amFirst to invent opens the possibility of back dating inventions.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2014, 05:06:15 am
content: First: First to file is not new. It works well - well, as well as the patent system works in general - in the rest of the world. AFAIK the US was the last one using first to invent.Second: First to invent is impossible to prove with certainty. One would need be able to check your brain when you had the idea. However, no one can check your brain (until an invention to do that comes along), and your brain doesn't properly timestamp ideas.So the US system used other constructs. Invention is separated into steps. The first one is when the idea formed in your mind, the conception. The second one when you first expressed the idea. Expressing the idea is misnamed as "reduction to practice". It however means when you wrote it down, told someone, etc., or, as one of several possibilities, build it.Reduction to practice sets an upper limit of when you must have conceived the idea. But evidence of the time of reduction to practice is relatively easy to falsify. Bribe a witness, fake your lab notes, drawings, images, etc.Third: The system allowed to hide patents for years, surprising your competition with a late filing that you had invented something earlier, by delaying the filing. The competition had no chance to learn about your invention because of the delayed filing.Forth: Forget that fairness thing. Life is not fair. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

author: TheRuler8510
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2014, 04:47:25 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on August 28, 2014, 05:06:15 amMy biggest beef is the following scenario: Company-A has a trade secret they have been using for years. Company-B patents the newly discovered (for them) same Trade secret. Now Company-A is barred from using it!This seems ridiculous to me.

author: TheRuler8510
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2014, 04:50:39 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 28, 2014, 04:04:51 amIt sounds so wonderful to "harmonize" with the rest of the world. Another way to look at it is we are following the rest of the world in a sheep-like fashion. We should be leaders of the world, not followers! Our country has been going down hill since we decided to "follow" the rest of the world.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2014, 04:54:58 pm
content: Quote from: TheRuler8510 on August 28, 2014, 04:47:25 pmA shipped product counts as prior art.. Company A can't get a patent on the idea, but they can shoot down company B's patent. I think you are just creating straw man arguments, you old stick in the mud.

author: jlmoon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2014, 04:58:02 pm
content: So what if I have a concept & design (which I have many) and I take this design along with all my concept notes, diagrams, notes of concept and I seal them in a envelope send them certified mail to myself. This dates the concept, design and all documents. Will this hold up as a firstly conceived idea or not when I present it to the patent office?I have some concepts from over 30 years ago which I did this with and still have them in their sealed envelopes with the certified document still attached.Very interesting topic!

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2014, 05:01:45 pm
content: Quote from: TheRuler8510 on August 28, 2014, 04:47:25 pmThat's a good point. I don't know what the law say about it. If you use it in your product than it may qualify as prior art and invalidate the patent.The law was designed to encourage people and companies to share their knowledge by providing them the benefit of protection for X years from the time of the public disclosure.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2014, 05:52:59 pm
content: Quote from: jlmoon on August 28, 2014, 04:58:02 pmIt has no legal rights, if you had given them to a notary that marked and testified maybe but then only may you use it for your own products, no way another company has to pay you for the rights. Then you should have filed for a patent in the first place and every year pay more and more to keep it alive till 20 years then it is obsolete anyway.The whole patentsystem is a bad system where only the large corporations can profit from. They should ban it all together since the real protection and advantages are not there only the disadvantages.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2014, 07:53:22 pm
content: Quote from: TheRuler8510 on August 28, 2014, 04:47:25 pmThis was true before the AIA.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gore-TexAFAICS the US's first to invent rule only settled priority, it did not allow a secret industrial process to count as prior art. Only first party use of trade secrets counted as prior art (this derived from jurisprudence more than the law). What the USPTO says changed with the AIA (which not everyone agrees with) is that first party use of trade secrets no longer counts as prior art either.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2014, 08:25:42 pm
content: Prior art must be available to the public before the filling date. It can be an academic paper, a patent, a presentation, a product catalog, or any other medium, since it was public available to anyone in a date before the and that can be verified.And industrial secret is another way to protect your intellectual property, that is not limited in time and is not necessary to disclose. But there is a risk involved, if someone archive the same invent and file a patent you cannot do anything. But you can continue using this technology if you prove that was using before the filling. You can not expand your business and cannot license either.Enviado de meu XT1058 usando Tapatalk

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2014, 08:34:50 pm
content: Quote from: jlmoon on August 28, 2014, 04:58:02 pmThe "mail it to yourself to preserve the date" thing doesn't work. It doesn't hold up in court for a few reasons.First, you can't patent an idea. You can only patent an invention. This is the critical "reduce to practice". A patent must describe how someone skilled in the art can construct your invention by referencing your patent... so you have to have all the bugs worked out and all the details described.Second, you must practice your invention for your patent rights to be valid. So if you have something you mailed to yourself 30 years ago, that's actually proof that you haven't done anything with it and therefore it is not patentable.Third, no court is qualified to determine whether postmarks are legitimate and authentic and that whatever container you used hasn't been opened and re-sealed. It's easy to steam open letters or boxes, so there's no way to verify that you really did mail the item when you say you did or that the contents then were the same as they are now.

author: casinada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2014, 08:56:35 pm
content: Wasn't the Flux Capacitor Conceived 30 years before it was implemented

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 01:18:10 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on August 28, 2014, 08:34:50 pmWhat you said is supposed to be the case. However, a huge number of US patents are nothing more than a statement of a product or service idea, with no description of a way to implement it. The famous bar code case is a great example. Although US law changed after that event, to try to stop it happening again, the changes only limit someone's ability to stretch things. They don't stop the patenting of "wouldn't it be nice if we could....."

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 03:05:08 am
content: Quote from: TheRuler8510 on August 28, 2014, 04:47:25 pmIt is. But if it remains a trade secret then how can anyone find out and therefore be barred from using it?First To File is not a bad way to implement a bad system, as then it's black and white and no ones time is wasted with trying to prove who invented what first.Although I think there should be a clause in there that excludes such cases of previous use that was "trade secret". A "First To Use" exclusion card if you will. With the proviso that the idea was actually used commercially (albeit secretly).Any system that stops someone selling or using something they have been doing for years is a flawed system.Any good patent system must protect people who chose to opt out of the patent system (by open source, or trade secret, or whatever), otherwise you ultimately end up with the crap we have now.So you can't just come up with an idea, draw a few squiggles in a notebook and date it, and sit on it and do nothing until someone else comes along and discovered and patents the same thing.Likewise I think there should be a "use it or lose it" clause, just like there is with Provision Patent law (at least in this country). i.e. you have one year after you file your provision patent to apply for the full patent.In this case you apply for the full patent, and if you haven't used it (or even bought a product to market) within say 2 years, then it automatically gets rejected.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 03:20:13 am
content: Quote from: TheRuler8510 on August 28, 2014, 04:50:39 pmI beg to differ. America is in the shit because of several things where you did not follow the rest of world, instead you decided to be "leaders":- Your non-universal health care system- Your military spending (and continual involvement in wars on everything)- Your removal of banking protections et.al- Your influence of money in politicsCongrats on being world leaders

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 03:24:16 am
content: Quote from: jlmoon on August 28, 2014, 04:58:02 pmThe patent office doesn't care. That privately kept prior art evidence only comes into play when you are in the throws of a multi-million dollar patent law suit.QuoteAnd they are all but useless without millions of dollars to back them up.Seriously. If someone comes along and patents your ideas, and they have deep pockets, you will lose, regardless of good your prior art evidence is. They have the money to tie you up in a multi-year patent law suit until you go bankrupt.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 03:28:22 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 29, 2014, 03:24:16 amEither you go bankrupt, or things go on so long the issue becomes irrelevant, and its not just for patents. Any IP wrangling is a game for lawyers, not truth or technology. Intel beat NEC mightily in the battle over the 8086, yet lost the court cases.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 03:34:26 am
content: Quote from: TheRuler8510 on August 28, 2014, 04:50:39 pmIts always attitude like this that starts the provocation when it comes to international discussion board like this forum, how do you expect non US people will start a civilized and polite mood after reading that ?You're not trolling, are you ?

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 04:48:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 29, 2014, 03:20:13 amNot to get all political... buuuut-Our health care is the best in the world. Our *access* to care sucks, but there is a reason that people come here when they are really ill, because this is where the best doctors and facilities are. It's not that Americans are inherently smarter, but because there is money to be made, so the best and brightest flock here.-Our military spending has allowed most of the rest of the world to live high on the hog while the USA subsidizes their national security. If Europe had to pay for their own national security, they'd have to cut *way* back on the social spending (including cushy health care)-Banking protections is a tough one, largely down to unintended consequences. Politicians aren't smart enough to really understand much of anything, so things that sound good like our Community Reinvestment Act end up having serious unintended consequences.-Yep, money and politics are intertwined and inseperable, but is it really much different anywhere else?I'm not sure what "shit" America is in. It's an oft-repeated phrase that I've heard every year from non-Americans since I was born, like the impending collapse of the USA or the looming decline of American power. But we keep growing bigger and more powerful every year and it shows no signs of slowing down. So we must be doing something right.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 04:54:05 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on August 29, 2014, 03:34:26 amOne thing that I think a lot of people don't really realize is that it's the job of every government to do what's best for it's citizenry and the country as a whole. I look at stuff like US spying on Germany or Russia seizing Crimea, and viewed under the lens of "everyone is just doing what's best for themselves", it makes more sense - more sense than the "villianize your enemy" thing (Saddam Insane anyone?).From that perspective, every nation wants to be world leaders, don't they? And shouldn't every nation strive to be?World power has always been in flux, and almost every region has had it at some time or other... ultimately, they all fail - the Romans, the Egyptians, the Byzantines, the Mongols. The USA will fail at some point too - hopefully far in the future. But I think there's nothing wrong with wanting your nation to be the leading power in the world. After all, it's good to be king

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 05:47:41 am
content: Back to the patents.One thing we ( hopefully ) all agree on, patenttrolls should be illegal and outcast. Even Obama agrees on that one. That said how is this new law helping? I don,t see it.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 06:06:05 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 29, 2014, 05:47:41 amI expect most people (although maybe not lawyers) would agree that patent trolls are a bad things. However, I wonder how much agreement we could find over the definition of a patent troll.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 06:06:42 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on August 29, 2014, 04:48:11 amBingo. And it's crippling your country financially, that's the point.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/03/health-care-costs-_n_3998425.htmlQuoteI think Australia would give the US a run for it's money there. Many people come here instead of the US for specialist care.It would be a mistake to think you are #1 in this area, or so far ahead of everyone else.QuoteYep. You win by several orders of magnitude.QuoteYour debt and spending is unsustainable.QuoteNo, you are doing a lot of stuff wrong, which is the whole point of what is being discussed here.Just because you have staved off collapse through shear momentum and vested interests doesn't change the fact that you are in financial peril, with no clear road out.

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 10:07:40 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on August 29, 2014, 04:48:11 amIsn't stem cell research banned in America still? That's some pretty insane stuff, and in other more lenient countries (not sure) it has and is still, I think, being used.Anyways, America should take a page from us here in Canada regarding healthcare, but I doubt that will happen for a long, long time, if ever.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 11:56:45 am
content: Quote from: XOIIO on August 29, 2014, 10:07:40 amAlthough there are restrictions on federal funding ofembryonicstem cell research, there is no ban on privately funded work.Non-embryonic stem cell research has never been restricted in the USA.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 03:25:48 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 29, 2014, 06:06:42 amHuffington Post is about as unbiased a news source as Fox News. In the USA, health care is expensive, but it's the best care when you are very sick. There is no free lunch... people want the best care for no cost - it's never realistic in any business to expect that. In Australia and Canada (countries with good public systems), there is also better care available privately. Again, there is no free lunch.QuoteNo, not even close. Not saying Australia has bad health care, but no other country approaches the USA in terms of the best care available when you have something really serious. You can look at hospital rankings or survival rates for various types of cancers (make sure the measurement metrics are the same).QuoteSeems to be working pretty wellQuoteWith all due respect, why would the most successful nation in the history of the world listen to other nations who haven't achieved 1/100th our success about "what we are doing right and wrong"? Isn't that like me giving Bill Gates business advice, or telling Paul McCartney how to be a better musician? I know that sounds arrogant and it's one of the things that pisses people off about the USA, but it's also objectively true.As a % of GDP, our debt is #30 on the list in the developed world, behind countries like The Netherlands, Austria, Sweden, Denmark, The UK, Finland, Switzerland, etc. Sure, we should cut it further... but there's nothing to suggest we are somehow staving off economic collapse through momentum and vested interests.The road out is easy... the US economy is growing by leaps and bounds. Faster than virtually all the rest of the first world. We need to cut our debt to GDP ratio and we need to cut spending and natural GDP growth will eliminate the problem. The real risk is that we won't do that - because nobody likes to give up their candy and the politicians like to promise candy to everyone... but the USA certainly isn't doing anything that everyone else isn't also doing, nor are we on the brink of collapse, no matter how many times it's predicted. Life will go on... the sun will still rise, and the USA will be the military, economic and scientific leader of the world for the foreseeable future.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 03:28:37 pm
content: Quote from: XOIIO on August 29, 2014, 10:07:40 amHonestly, I am not sure... we have a huge number of religious kooks in this country who want to impose their beliefs on everyone else and who don't see the irony when they complain about muslims imposing sharia in Syria, etc.Although, stem cell research was never banned, it was a restriction on public funds being used for a specific type of that research. Anyway, it was religiously motivated and an embarrassment that it ever happened - I think it's history now.RE: Canadian health care... the Canadian system is not bad. We should have basic and 'free' care available to everyone and then better care available privately... the same way that Canada and Australia does it. More people who can't afford the private care would die, but there is no free lunch.

author: jlmoon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 03:59:46 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 29, 2014, 03:24:16 amdarn!.. and thats why I still have to get up at 6 am for work and go home after the cows come home every day! oh well... tisk tisk

author: jlmoon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 04:08:50 pm
content: Wow, this topic has really changed direction.."No, you are doing a lot of stuff wrong, which is the whole point of what is being discussed here.Just because you have staved off collapse through shear momentum and vested interests doesn't change the fact that you are in financial peril, with no clear road out."Ah yes, we Americans keep diving further into debt every year. Ah.. lets just keep printing more money.. that will fix it! Someday (think sooner than some expect) we will have to pay the piper!

author: TheRuler8510
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 04:35:49 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 29, 2014, 03:20:13 amI can't argue too much with those points.And Yikes! I didn't mean to start a food fight...but I think we can all agree on one thing: We all have some combination of crooks an idiots running all of our governments.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 04:40:07 pm
content: Quote from: XOIIO on August 29, 2014, 10:07:40 amIsn't private medicine restricted in Canada?I am reading this in Wikipedia "Under federal law, private clinics are not legally allowed to charge patients directly for services covered by the Canada Health Act, if they qualify for the public insurance".It's one thing to provide government paid healthcare to all citizens, it's another to outlaw private competition. Definitely not something I would like to see here.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 04:48:02 pm
content: Quote from: jlmoon on August 29, 2014, 04:08:50 pmThat's because the socialists gained more power in the last several years, mostly because of the youth that will eventually have to pay the debts. They promises people free stuff and amnesties and get elected. This president alone will double the national debt by the end of his 8 years presidency. Hopefully we will bounce back to a more fiscally responsible administration.

author: jlmoon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 04:54:58 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on August 29, 2014, 04:48:02 pmI couldn't agree any more, you hit the hammer on the nail head..I can still hear Obama in my memory saying "I’m pledging to cut the deficit by half by the end of my first term in office." Ugh.. fat chance that would ever happen. Oh the politics, they bite!

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 05:38:31 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on August 29, 2014, 03:25:48 pmRemind me, what country would that be?

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 06:01:14 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on August 29, 2014, 05:38:31 pmItaly, for creating Western civilisation, laws and society - according to a league table produced by an Americanjournal.The United Kingdom is second, and the United States comes in at number three.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 06:49:06 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on August 29, 2014, 06:01:14 pmWith one big difference, the first two colonized the world, the third once liberated countries and let them go on their own.;-)

author: SirNick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 07:28:58 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on August 29, 2014, 03:25:48 pm[citation needed]Also: Because sometimes you (general "you", not necessarily "you" you) are wrong and others are right. Kinda like the other guy's joke about how the US should continue to be leaders instead of following the rest of the world. Well, when you're in a crowd of people trying to get somewhere, and you go left whileeveryone elsegoes right... regardless of how correct you think you are, that really should be enough to make you stop and think... "gee, why am Ithe only onestill going this way?" That's not being a sheep, it's justnotbeing a lemming.Quote from: Corporate666 on August 29, 2014, 03:25:48 pmOK, so let's pretend you have $800 in your bank account, you make $50,000 a year, and you owe $28,000 in debt -- not including mortgages or car and student loans.... Yep, seems fine. Let's order a pizza and watch something on Pay-Per-View!Another interesting metric: Since 1980, the GDP has not quite doubled, while gross national debt has gone up by 7x. That suggests a fairly strong economic direction.Quote from: Corporate666 on August 29, 2014, 03:25:48 pmIt is? I seem to hear a lot of this kind of thing: "Well, unemployment isn't quite as bad as it was last year at this time, however, sales of durable goods was lower than anticipated last winter, possibly due to harsh weather and lacking consumer confidence." Leaps and bounds though, huh?Meanwhile, tech jobs are going overseas, manufacturing went overseasyearsago, the US consumes a boatload of oil, and are thus wholly dependent on politically unstable regions of the world, the US borrows obscene amounts of money from China, while also importing4x as muchas it exports there (http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html), and 2x as much as it exports to India.The US's economic standing might be the best thing to happen to developing nations, but not itself.As far as being a scientific leader, there's an awful lot going on in Asia -- like, for example, a lot of the design and fabrication of US goods, but also tech and medical research as well.I'm not anti-US by any stretch, however, I think the hubris is dangerous. On the bright side, denial is the first stage of grief, so maybe its citizens are on their way to realizing the glory days are over, and it's time to stop resting on laurels if there is to be any future there at all.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 07:39:45 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on August 29, 2014, 06:49:06 pmYou do have a long history of 'liberating' countries from democratically elected governments in order to install US puppet dictators.I'm not sure their citizens would agree that this is 'letting them go on their own'.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 08:46:20 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on August 29, 2014, 03:25:48 pmHuh?You claim good healthcare in a "first world" country that have regular outbreaks of diseases like measles, pertussis and polio?

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 08:55:19 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on August 29, 2014, 04:40:07 pmBetter than having to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars on the spot for medical care

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 09:43:28 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on August 29, 2014, 04:48:02 pmI didn't want to make things TOO political but I agree with you wholeheartedly.The problem is that too many Americans (and people all over the world) understand nothing about finance, debt, interest and the like. They want the most services and to pay the least taxes. There will always be a politician ready to promise them they can have all of that. And if ever confronted with the reality of future repayment, it's always "the rich should kick in their 'fair share'", as if they don't already (and then some).The only positive thing is that, ultimately, the only thing that *really* matters in the world is strength of force. One of the reasons the dollar is the defacto world currency is because of the strength and power of our military. Not to put it too bluntly, but if America ever says "fuck off" when our debt is called in, who is going to force the issue?

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 09:46:53 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on August 29, 2014, 06:01:14 pmWe don't know when (or if, frankly) the USA will fall, but until that happens, we don't know what the ultimate endpoint will be. However, considering where the USA started from and where it's reached, neither Italy/Rome nor England are as successful as the USA has been in terms of economic power, military power and intellectual accomplishment.It's likely that the rate of change of all of those metrics is increasing as we progress culturally, and that a future nation will eclipse the accomplishments of the USA and become the most successful, but to date - the others you mentioned don't come close.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 10:10:18 pm
content: Quote from: SirNick on August 29, 2014, 07:28:58 pmThis is one of the naive misunderstandings about how the world works. The primary function of the US government is to provide for the best interests of the USA and it's citizens. Sometimes those overlap with other nations, sometimes they don't. I expect our government to do what's best for us, even if that's at your expense. Every nation (that votes) has the same mandate from it's electorate. There are plenty of things the USA does that I disagree with, but it's outright bizarre when people think that the USA should be doing what's best for - say - Poland, instead of what's best for the USA. Naturally, we all have different ideals and different cultures and mentalities and believe in different things. And being the most powerful nation, it's natural that we get our way more often than not. That's why I said... "it's good to be king". I don't mean it arrogantly - it's just a truism and one that I hope our government maintains for as long as possible.Quote from: SirNick on August 29, 2014, 07:28:58 pm...and if your salary increased every year and in time you could (pretty much) count on making $100k a year, then the $28k debt is not a big deal. I'm not saying our debt isn't something to be concerned about - it is. I'm just saying that virtually every first world nation does the same thing. The real problem is that it's unlikely that people who have never suffered through economic hardships will ever choose to make the decision to cut the deficit (and thereby reduce the debt) voluntarily when they can just push it off to the next leader.QuoteYou can find any set of metrics to prove or disprove any statement about the economy... even in a good economy, various metrics can be up or down. Those who like this administration will talk about the reduction in unemployment, or stock market increases. Those who don't will talk about the deficit and the national debt, or people leaving the workforce. GDP growth is a relatively non-partisan metric, and we've been growing year on year. In important sectors too - like high tech, energy, etc. The US economy is not in any danger of being on any path other than onwards and upwards for the foreseeable future, making the debt to GDP ratio not that big of a deal.QuoteMost of this just isn't true. The tech industry is better than it's ever been in the USA and has grown around 50% since 2000. China (a nation with 4.5 times our population) just recently started manufacturing more then the USA, but we are still far ahead of everyone else and more importantly, the stuff we manufacture remains on the high end where we outsource much/most of the crap stuff to China/India. We are a net oil producer (making more than we use), second only in production to Saudi Arabia, but from what I understand we have much more reserves, and our consumption is trending downwards. And the amount of debt we sell is a non-issue as described above - if your case is that 100% debt to GDP is a breaking point, then most of Europe would be DOA years ago.QuoteNo worries, people have been predicting (waiting for?) the downfall of the USA for as long as I can remember. I'm not American.. wasn't born here and lived most of my life in Europe. Most of my facebook friends are European, and I spend close to half the year in various countries outside the USA. It's not hubris... it's a form of pride and patriotism that just doesn't really exist anywhere else, and it's not a bad thing. But I also notice so many of my friends and family have an obsession with everything America. From perpetuating stereotypes to commenting on every little thing that happens in our country. I am always amazed at how much of the news around the world focuses on the USA.. while the amount of time spent doting over Canada, Australia, Japan or pretty much anywhere else is a number approaching zero.We're doing something right, considering how much time people spend sweating us

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 10:15:44 pm
content: Quote from: XOIIO on August 29, 2014, 08:55:19 pmThat doesn't happen in the USA - not sure why you'd think it does?It's actually illegal for any care provider to refuse necessary treatment on the inability to pay. You could go to the nearest hospital complaining of whatever and proudly proclaim you will never pay them a dime - and by law, they can not offer you one iota less service than Bill Gates with his Amex Black Card in handIt's actually one of the reasons health care is so expensive here - because so many don't pay, that the cost of that excellent care falls on the rest of the folks who do pay.That's why a tiered system like Canada or Australia would work better - where a minimum level of care would be provided for "free" (taxpayer funded), and the top-shelf care would be reserved for people who are able to pay for it.Ultimately, there is no free lunch. Someone has to pay the R&D costs of drugs and for things like MRI machines and robotic surgery devices. And someone has to pay the doctors. I want the neurosurgeon who makes $800k a year in the USA doing my brain surgery... not the dude in Romania who went to a state school. In the USA, a homeless guy on the street can get that same $800k a year guy doing his operation. A minimum care level that saves the best for the wealthier (like how it works in the UK, Canada, Australia) would be a heck of a lot better for many Americans. Things like 5-year prostate and breast cancer survival rates would plummet to European levels, though... but access to care would be greatly improved.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 10:55:13 pm
content: Funny how everytime there is a subject regarding the US it changes to the same thing, imperial system, healthcare how evil we are etc..I did considered working in Europe but after seeing how much they pay and how expensive things are and how long things take in there, I rather stay here.I have the right to be a EU citizen because of my mother since in Spain is a blood right, but I'll stick with my US citizenship from my father. Sure I could get both but the EU citizenship wouldn't get me anything that I need anyways.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 11:00:09 pm
content: Quote from: TheRuler8510 on August 29, 2014, 04:35:49 pmOur current Prime Minister is the biggest idiot in the history of the human race. Puts G W Bush to shame!

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 11:37:21 pm
content: Quote from: XOIIO on August 29, 2014, 08:55:19 pmWell, we have a choice. That's what freedom is about. ;-)I have read about people in countries with nationalized medicine that need to wait weeks for a simple procedures such as MRI.Around here we have a choice. If I have insurance I get a referral from my doctor and schedule a one of the private MRI institutions with virtually no waiting list and the insurance covers it. If I don't haveinsurance I can just walk in a pay in cash (~$1000).Here is an interesting site that surveys the street cash prices of medical procedures, for example, the MRI listhttps://www.healthcarebluebook.com/page_SearchResults.aspx?CatID=39Your government kills the private competition and you defends it. Looks like freedom is an endangered value.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 11:52:14 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on August 29, 2014, 11:37:21 pmWe have that choice in the UK, too.The big difference is a private MRI scan costs around £200 ($330), not $1000.Maybe the USA healthcare system isn't as efficient as you might wish...

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 12:35:23 am
content: Quote from: rolycat on August 29, 2014, 11:52:14 pmMy main goal is freedom, not efficiency.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 08:05:49 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on August 29, 2014, 10:10:18 pmThat is just a conspiracy theory so you can convince yourself you are a superior race.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 09:39:16 am
content: Quote from: zapta on August 30, 2014, 12:35:23 amI want freedom through efficiency. More difficult, but sustainable.(Btw, the US stock market is having a giant bubble right now...http://thume.ca/indexView/)

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 10:03:58 am
content: Quote from: gildasd on August 30, 2014, 09:39:16 amI heard it before somewhere ;-)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_productive_forcesQuote from: gildasd on August 30, 2014, 09:39:16 amI am a long term investor. The underlying trend looks good. Corrections will occur once in a while. I avoid timing the market or picking stocks, just riding the indexes long term.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 10:22:28 am
content: Quote from: zapta on August 30, 2014, 10:03:58 amSure, but that's one hell of steep curve...Another correction will obviously happen, so to me that curve would be a sign to get the hell out and sit flat in cash until the correction happens.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 10:48:30 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 30, 2014, 10:22:28 amI highly recommend this little bookhttp://amzn.com/0399535993(not sure how to adapt it to the Australian investment market though).Sitting on cash waiting for the market to go down is basically market timing. That book argues that timing the market and/or stock picking result in inferior long term returns compared to the indexing strategy. I went through the 2008 crash while using that system and it went very well. The bond component limited my loses and when I balanced the portfolio I bought cheap stocks (it was scary, I must say, almost everybody was selling stocks to buy bonds and I did the opposite).This is not a get rich quick scheme but a long term and well established strategy. That little book does excellent job in expelling indexing and give specific instructions how to do it.(I am not an investment junkie, for me it's just a necessity).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 10:50:21 am
content: Quote from: zapta on August 30, 2014, 10:48:30 amYeah, but once again, look at the graph. Good luck with that.When data whacks you in the face, it's generally wise to take notice.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 11:45:15 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 30, 2014, 10:50:21 amThe indexing method is based on data. Many investors react to emotions and fears and loose money and this may be the case here. If you believe that you can forecast the future better than other investors you are probably wrong.I recommend to read that book. It explain how to build a diversified and efficient portfolio and how to avoid knee jerk when the market changes.

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 01:12:38 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on August 29, 2014, 11:52:14 pmWait, so how much is a flight from the states to the uk if you were in an ideal place to leave the states, making it one plane ticket.If it would be cheaper or the same price to fly to the uk for an mri, that would be funny as hell, and sad.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 03:29:24 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on August 29, 2014, 11:37:21 pmTrue but the problem is not in the MRI scan itself but the persons that can interpret the MRI and process and analyze its data correctly. Each abnormality is a different specialization you can not get that level of expertise from a small private clinic.It is waiting for the artificial intelligence that can combine all knowledge of all specialuzations into one software program that can make a well based diagnose on the data and then you can put such a machine in every supermarket for a quick self scan.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 03:31:25 pm
content: Shoot, come to ZA for healthcare. Kidney transplant heaven. Best care if you have the money, and if not you have an issue. Your MRI would leave change from the plane fare for a holiday as well. The data is analysed by an outsourced pro in India or somewhere where they can move the mass of data cheaply.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 06:11:32 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on August 30, 2014, 10:03:58 amDarn it, I've been Marx'ed!Joke aside, all the big economists (Marx Keynes etc) of the era were right about some stuff and wrong about other.The worst thing one can do is be orthodox about any of them.As for investing, you seem to be doing OK, using a method, not "gambling".A investment banker I know (Dad of a friend) who has been doing it successfully for 30years, once told me that his secret was not being greedy.Once he had his reached his objective he would sell and move on.He missed the spikes, but he also missed all the cliffs.He never was below 9% (7 for the client 2 for him) but rarely got over 15% annual return.However, if you hang on trying to milk it to the limit, "being greedy" for him, in the end you will lose.For him that was the difference between investing and gambling.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 06:52:45 pm
content: Quote from: gildasd on August 30, 2014, 06:11:32 pmSelling an then buying is a costly strategy because it creates tax events. Low cost index funds have several advantages, tax efficiency is one of them because of the low turnaround rate.Once you control your ego and fears long term balanced and efficient investing is very simple.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2014, 02:25:26 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 29, 2014, 05:47:41 amThere is no objective way to distinguish a patent troll from an inventor, there have been plenty of inventors who did not sell their patents to some trolling firm who were nonetheless gigantic trolls with it. On top of that there is no objective way to judge patent obvious in hind sight and no objective way to judge fair value of patents. The need for patent law to be objective means Patent Trolls, lack of an obviousness test which doesn't boil down to prior art and absolute/roadblock patents being designed into the very system ... it's unavoidable. The only alternative is letting (expert) juries decide obviousness and fair value of patents based on subjective reasoning.Patent law is an impossible nut to crack ... what kept it in check in the past was mostly the wishes of most inventors/companies to get on with creating/selling products, once the genie of financialization got out of the bag it all went to shit.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2014, 02:41:01 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on August 28, 2014, 08:34:50 pmNo, if you didn't reduce it to practice you couldn't use it for priority ... of course that's no longer relevant in first to file. "Constructive reduction to practice" voids the need to reduce anything to practice in an English language sense, it's only an irrelevant requirement in lawyerese (an idea is reduced to practice simply by filing the patent nowadays).The pretence that there is a difference between an idea and an implementation for patents is either naive or disingenuous semantic wank.

author: sunnyhighway
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2014, 02:57:00 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on August 31, 2014, 02:41:01 pmThe only way to effectivly prevent patent trolls, is to require a product which implements the invention. The first day the product can be purchased should be the startdate of the patent and make it valid. If you can't buy it, the patent is void.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2014, 06:28:16 pm
content: I don't think it really matters, patents cost a fair bit of money ... for most applications making a sucky functioning prototype (it doesn't have to be commercially competitive) and putting it on ebay isn't a barrier. For something like an ASIC it would present a barrier, but then you get into the problem that if an independent inventor invents something which could be implemented in hardware it becomes really easy to steal when he tries to sell it (proving trade secret infringement is very hard).Patents create a mountain of compromises, perverse incentives and collateral damage ... it's inherent and it's getting worse.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2014, 06:30:54 pm
content: Some US companies (Tesla) now only patent the obvious, and let anyone use them...And for the core stuff, they don't patent it, because the patent basically tells their competition how to get started...

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2014, 06:32:55 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on August 31, 2014, 06:28:16 pmPatents are cheap. Patent attorneys doing patent searches is where it gets expensive. Maintenance fees jump to over $1K after seven years and $2K after 12 or so years.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2014, 03:18:28 am
content: Quote from: sunnyhighway on August 31, 2014, 02:57:00 pmPatents do not only apply to products. Many are for processes. All those processes you learned about in high school chemistry, like the Haber process, were protected by patents in their early days. Nobody wants to let others see the processes they are using, as there is usually some secret sauce mixed with the basic patented ideas. "Let's see some product" sounds like a simple idea, but it gets harder the deeper you look.

author: sunnyhighway
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2014, 08:40:30 am
content: Quote from: coppice on September 01, 2014, 03:18:28 amNo it isn't.A process can also be (a part of) a service. The serviceisthe product. Starting at the moment the service (which uses this patented process) is put to market, the patent becomes valid.It still allows for that "secret sauce" in order to obscure things.In order for a patent to be valid:- it requires a product and/or service using the patent.- it requires the product and/or service to be available to everyone willing to pay for it.In this way it does not matter how lame the product or service is or even how expensive it is. The market wil take care of that, as the ultimate goal of every patent is to make money.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2014, 09:29:11 am
content: Still keeping things (that are not obvious) a secret is also still a good way to do it, see Coca Cola and WD40 as example, yes there are many clones that come close but as a customer you notice the small differences.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2014, 09:47:32 am
content: Quote from: rolycat on August 29, 2014, 07:39:45 pmNow lets relax with a cup of tea and happily reminisce the rich philanthropic history of British colonialism.http://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/oct/19/end-myths-britains-imperial-past^^^ yep.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2014, 09:50:13 am
content: I thought this thread was something about patents?http://www.google.com.au/patents/US6055910I find the Status of Prior Art fascinating. I had no idea that there was a science of flatology.