APC UPS, now with aluminum wire - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: srb1954
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 03:41:42 am
content: I thought it was ironic the he started the video with "never a dull moment around here".I have always found Mr Carlson's Lab to be some of the dullest electronics content on YT.

author: Chipguy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 01:08:15 pm
content: First I thought, they came up with some special solder that would work.I was shocked when Paul took the other solder joint apart and it just fell apart. What a load of crapSome books back in my university times stated that in order to weld or crimp aluminium thoughougly you need to first strip the oxide layer with hydrochloric acid, then not waste time, crimp it, heat it and then use nitric acid to oxidize the aluminium again. After flushing and drying a protective soft lacquer is applied.I have done this donkeys years ago on my first job as a student and we never had a complaint.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 04:38:36 am
content: Quote from: srb1954 on February 04, 2023, 03:41:42 amwell he is not a influencer but a teacher. Very detailed and with the stuff you learn about proper repairs and designs from that channel, I can live with someone not trying to 'go viral'.And I thought it was exciting to see him go into it after he said it was clipped and glued together, I would just make a 2 minute video that ends with it crashing in a dumpster. Amazing tenacity of the human spirit.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 05:11:33 am
content: Quote from: Chipguy on February 04, 2023, 01:08:15 pmI think we will have a great leap in progress when humans bring the first big ass copper asteroid to be mined on the moon so this aluminum stuff can go obsolete lol. Every time I see aluminum conductors that are not on the power line I think... damn... we need to find more copper out there. Some time after the real space age we will have the 'reasonably good conductor everywhere' age, or hopefully the silver age. 0.15 cents/pound silver.Hopefully one day we will look at old technology and see the aluminum conductor like finding a knife made out of obsidian.

author: nth_degree
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 04:07:13 pm
content: Damn I run two of these. Called support the other day because the software couldn’t connect to the server to check for updates. Agent couldn’t possibly have cared less and failed to tell me there was another software package since APC has been bought by SE. I’m never buying APC again

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2023, 06:34:34 pm
content: I'm a fan of APC but rack mount types only. I buy them used and replace batteries.I lost faith in APC's consumer models after several failures. Of course being curious, I take them apart after failure, and I was always surprised how cheaply they are made. Very small transformers and it is obvious it is made for maximum few minutes of operations. I had battery bulge and wedge themselves as well.Aluminum winding in transformer is just out of this world. I didn't even think it is possible. Trying to use regular solder? Sounds like cost cutting going overboard. Likely, subcontractor or parts supplier made them to meet impossible cost demands. Very disappointed APC allowed this to happen. They should be recalled for safety.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2023, 06:58:39 pm
content: Quote from: tkamiya on May 24, 2023, 06:34:34 pmIt's more common than you might think, but obviously regular solder onto bare (not CCA) aluminum wire isn't good. An intermittent-use transformer like this is a prime candidate for an aluminum-thrifted approach.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2023, 07:07:14 pm
content: Pretty scarily a UL listed device can be made this badly. I guess aluminum wire themselves weren't real problem but sizing and connection has to be made properly. I'm just surprised Apc allowed it to happen and sent them to market.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2023, 11:26:26 pm
content: Think about this one : aluminum is a light metal, copper is a heavy metal. When it starts vibrating from the magnetic field, its gonna be more effected IMO

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 05:39:26 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on May 24, 2023, 06:58:39 pmI've seen loads of aluminum wound transformers, ballasts and motors, it was very common during the Vietnam war era which drove copper prices up. Aluminum wiring was used in houses for about a decade too with disastrous results. I recently went through and repaired two houses wired with aluminum by using special AlumiConn splices to pigtail everything. One of them had several receptacles burn up and another was hot with a streak of smoke up the wall by the time I was asked ot look at it. Amazing the place didn't burn down. Aluminum seems to work fine for high capacity circuits with screw clamp terminals but I would never trust it in a branch circuit and never, ever splice it to copper with a wire nut. Even the special purple ones that come pre-filled with goo have a history of failure.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 06:13:23 am
content: Almost all microwave oven transformers used aluminum for a decade. Never seen a failure myself.They use spring clips not solder.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2023, 09:38:28 pm
content: Copper is expensive.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 12:33:52 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on May 26, 2023, 09:38:28 pmIt is expensive, but house fires are even more expensive.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 01:39:02 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 27, 2023, 12:33:52 amThat second one looks like stranded copper wire.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 01:26:56 am
content: I have a circuit board from a fairly recent and common 2 ton heat pump, has aluminum wire for the common mode emi chokes. In hindsight, i have seen this before in inverter microwave ovens. The connections are soldered, and no reliability problems that i know of

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2023, 05:46:59 pm
content: Quote from: srb1954 on February 04, 2023, 03:41:42 amWhy? Because he's not doing clickbait stunts like ElectroBOOM?

author: srb1954
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2023, 09:05:24 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on June 02, 2023, 05:46:59 pmNo, it is because most of his stuff is excruciatingly slow. He has a tendency to take 10 minutes to say what could be said in 1 minute.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2023, 06:45:23 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on May 27, 2023, 01:39:02 amSomebody pigtailed solid aluminum to stranded copper with predictable results. Both are early 70s manufactured homes wired with Anaconda Dutrax AL NM cable.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2023, 06:46:12 pm
content: Quote from: srb1954 on June 02, 2023, 09:05:24 pmI like the way he explains things thoroughly and talks slowly enough that I can take the time to study the thing he's showing.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2023, 07:37:44 pm
content: Quote from: srb1954 on June 02, 2023, 09:05:24 pmAnd presumably read in 15s.Almost all yootoob vids are like that.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 09:07:37 pm
content: Quote from: srb1954 on June 02, 2023, 09:05:24 pmSet the Playback Speed on the video to 1.5, 1.75, or 2.0.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 10:25:51 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on June 30, 2023, 09:07:37 pmHow you you propose getting the next factor of 10 to get down to speedreading time?

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 02:44:39 am
content: Quote from: johansen on July 02, 2023, 02:44:05 am

author: Andrew LB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 01:22:45 am
content: My house was built in 1973 and had aluminum wiring. Luckily i had a friend who is an electrician to supervise, and i did a complete rewire on the home while upping from 100a service to 200a. It was a ton of work but worth it in the end. I discovered it when changing an outlet and every time i tried to make a J-hook, the wire would break. Then i noticed it was silver colored and was like WTF?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 01:44:22 am
content: damn it sounds like something happened to that wire it should not be so fragile. Its fragile but you should be able to loop itdoes it get oxidized and stiff over time that makes it unable to bend?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 06:41:24 am
content: Aluminium work hardens a lot more than copper does, and yes with time you get intermetallic corrosion as well, which creates thin layers of insulating oxide through the cable. Thicker cables this takes a lot longer. You will find the reason the wire is copper coated before insulation in motors and transformers is to both allow it to be soldered, and also to provide a barrier to oxygen penetrating, though I have seen wire down to 36SWG be copper coated aluminium now, before it was only things that were 18SWG or lower that were CCA, but now you see very thin CCA wire, especially in things like network cable, where you get 7 strands in 22AWG wire in the sheath, and those do sort of hold up, though they do not solder at all well, and will hold up in a crimp for a while. Gel filled Scotchloks though do work well on them.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 07:01:39 am
content: its interesting because I heard that with air plane parts if they are anodized they will fracture after enough fatigue rather then just bending (reason for alodine and paint instead of anodizing airplanes). Its kind of like wood in that regard when it gets old it seems like. Not sure if the natural oxidation would ever compare to the anodizing process though for that effect to occur. So its not like the hard surface just cracks off like I would think it does but it makes the material crack suddenly.kind of wonder if you made a bare aluminum plane that was exposed to the air for long enough would it turn brittle like that. I wonder how many years it would take.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2023, 03:22:31 pm
content: This seems to be a fairly common issue with these BR1500MS pure sine-wave models. They are probably one of the main offerings by APC is the ~$200USD price range. My work has a few APC UPSs to power some of our equipment that we cannot afford to lose data on. We had a BR1500MS in operation for ~4 years (probably a little longer than the warranty) and it all the sudden started smoking and beeping. I took it out of service (I am the lab equipment engineer for my work) and it sat in my junk pile for a while. During down time I would take a stab at fixing it, but it just kept blowing the inverter MOSFETs. I had suspected the transformer, but it passed continutity test and hooking up to my variac, it was able to deliver the correct voltage. Then I saw this video from Dr. Carlson's lab. I took a look at the transformer tap connections and mine looked pretty sturdy unlike his. I ended up acquiring a HI-POT tester for a different project and I hooked up the transformer to it - it failed immediately!! Also, grabbed a transformer on eBay from a similar model and now the UPS works just fine! He's right though - typically the transformer should be one of the most robust components in a unit like this. So it makes troubleshooting one of these when they throw errors (like F02, F04, or F06) a real pain in the ass if you are unaware. Here's a video I posted on youtube HI-POT testing two different APC transformers 1) the BR1500MS and 2) BR1500G

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2023, 06:44:34 pm
content: Another follow-up to this topic. My work got in a couple of these APC UPS BR1000MS models. They are the pure sine-wave model also called the UPS back-up Pro. It is one APC's most well known offerings and it's likely one of the first UPSs to pop up on Amazon if you search 'UPS'. They are the exact same type that Dr. Carlson shows in his video. Anyway, I decided to HI-POT test the large AVR/inverter transformer when it is brand new. It fails miserably!! I can barely get it up to ~400-500VAC. This is terrible when you consider the formula for HI-POT testing which is Vt= (2Vw+ 1000) where Vt= test voltage and Vw= working voltage. The max working voltage for this transformer is ~120VAC. So test voltage for this transformer should be ~1200VAC and it should be able to withstand that for a few secs. It cannot get even close to that!! And again, this is brand new right out of the box!! Here's a video I did showing the test below.Now I've also tested the APC UPS BR1500G AVR transformers and they seem to be built much better. They will pass a HI-POT test at ~1200VAC. So if you ever have one of these BR MS models and want to fix it, you can grab one of these BR1500G transformers on eBay (I've seen them go for $20 used). You'll just need to replace the primary side lead wires to a thicker gauge and of course change the terminals to ring or fork style. I've done this repair on my own BR MS models and it works great!! If you have one of these BR MS models I would recommend doing this because this transformer will likely fail at some point and when it does (due to internal breakdown/shorting btw windings) it will draw massive amount of current and blow one or more of the inverter MOSFETs. This can happen in a very violent manner and could cause a fire.Also, I know Dr. Carlson complains about the transformer winding being aluminum, but a lot of transformers use aluminum windings and they have no problems whatsoever. These are likely just made poorly with inefficient insulation. I'll have to cut one open to see how it looks inside! Hope this helps someone!

author: jrmymllr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2024, 01:35:21 am
content: Quote from: fmashockie on September 17, 2023, 06:44:34 pmI just bought a BX1500M and then found all these complaints about newer APC UPSs failing because of the transformer. Needless to say it makes me a little uneasy. I have 3 older consumer grade APC units that are at least 19 years old and they just keep going. Plus a 25 year old Tripp Lite, again a consumer grade unit in a plastic chassis, that still works. I have serious doubts about the longevity of the new one.Interesting how the BR1500G transformers seem to be better. I wonder what the BX1500M uses.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2024, 03:49:17 pm
content: I'm not an expert on this by any means and I have only sampled a small portion of these UPSs, but in my investigations, this problem with the transformers seems to mainly affect the pure sine wave models (economy priced) like the BRxxxMS units (1000, 1500VA). So you might be in the clear. The BX1500M is a simulated sine-wave unit similar to the BR1500G.I don't know why the BR1500G (another simulated sine wave unit) has transformers that seem to be better quality. But the BR1500MSs that I have repaired with BR1500G transformers are still going strong without issue.The simulated sine wave units are not without their faults though. For example, I have a BR1500G that developed an F06 error out of nowhere. The F06 error indicates 'relay welding' which means a relay is failing to open or close. There are 7 mechanical relays in the BR1500G. In my case, both the buck and boost relays for the AVR function were not working properly. This was due to a failed microcontroller. I did a thread on repairing this by replacing the micro. I uploaded the firmware there as well for anyone who needs it.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/repair-help-for-apc-ups-br1500g-f06-error/msg5019466/#msg5019466

author: jrmymllr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2024, 11:34:30 pm
content: Quote from: fmashockie on March 09, 2024, 03:49:17 pmI am very curious if my BX uses this crappy soldering and will call APC next week. It's likely they won't give me a straight answer for several reasons, at which point I have another plan.How old was the BR1500 when it failed? And I'm shocked you were able to read the code off that micro! I assumed it would be protected since it's so easy to set that bit.I really wish I knew what UPSs are built well. The expensive ones are probably good, and I read a lot of recommendations for Eaton.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2024, 10:20:35 am
content: It is not so much the soldering in my opinion. While yes, Dr. Carlson did find that on his unit, on the ones I have encountered, it appears to be something internal that causes them to fail Hi-POT testing. The connections to the transformer are easy enough to check/fix - just recrimp them.Yes I was quite surprised as well that the micro was not protected! But my BR1500G is also still going strong after that repair. It has to be ~5 years old. I definitely recommend replacing the batteries of these units on a scheduled basis (every couple years or so).

author: jrmymllr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2024, 01:59:11 pm
content: Quote from: fmashockie on March 10, 2024, 10:20:35 amThe Hi-pot failures are something else, yes. But the fact that APC accepted these transformers and used them in production is simply negligent. That goes beyond a design error, or even cost cutting IMHO.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2024, 02:39:38 pm
content: So were they relying on a crimp to connect to the CCA wire, or were they relying on the copper coating being a suitable layer to solder to? There is nothing wrong with CCA wound transformers, but this seems a very dodgy way to terminate them. With the windings brought out to a termination strip, with robust aiuminium to non-aluminium connections on the strip, it could have been perfectly good transformer. Even with a copper wound transformer I worry about these single strand to insulated stranded transitions taking place under a bit of yellow tape. They never look very robust.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2024, 04:22:12 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 10, 2024, 02:39:38 pmI dont know what they are doing but heat pump manuf and microwave oven manufs have been soldering aluminum wound emi chokes to circuit boards for 15 years now.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2024, 05:27:24 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 10, 2024, 02:39:38 pmI disagree. The problem with these transformers aren't just bad connections. These transformers clearly have multiple issues. If you watch my videos where I HI-POT test two separate transformers from the BR1500MS models (one brand new, the other ~5 years old), they both fail miserably (my comments are above). And neither of them had poor connections to the lead wires like Dr. Carlson's. My point is, Dr. Carlson misses the mark with his explanation. Al-winded transformers are not inherently bad like he tries to claim. There are many examples of Al-winded transformers that work just fine. Sometimes they are more advantegous to use than Cu depending on the application.

author: lunix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2024, 10:09:04 am
content: FWIW: I bought a Cyberpower pure-sine wave UPS (1500VA) from Costco. I plugged it in, and nothing happened. I moved the line cord and heard relays clicking. I left it plugged in (like a dummy would) for a few hours, even though it said it was 100% charged from the outset. I turned it on, and when I lifted the front to check the display, I heard the relays again. And I brought it back to the store (though purchased online), and bought another one. That one had the power plug slightly smashed, but I bent the prongs back and it works fine.I guess I am going to have to start paying $400-$500 for a better brand. After watching these videos, I will never trust APC.