Trying to find old serial terminal for North Star Horizon - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 10:53:35 pm
content: Hi Folks,Way back in 1980 our school (Meden Comp, Warsop, North Notts, UK) took delivery of a North Star Horizon in a blue steel case. It had a serial terminal that provided output on a monochrome TV. Since that time I've never bumped into that terminal type again, seen it in adverts or even heard it talked about. Now, while I don't have sleepless nights over it, it bugs me that I have no idea what it actually was....the things I _can_ remember about it;White, blow moulded case...a similar form factor to a C64Output to TV (composite or modulator? ...can't remember)Small toggle switches on the back for local/remote comms and a couple of other purposes that I didn't understand.Anyone in the eev collective got any idea what I'm talking about? OK, so it's a bit sad to be trying to hunt down a terminal but it was my first intro to real computers and I bugs me that to this day I have no idea what it actually was.DAVE

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 07:39:47 am
content: Hmm.. Unfortunately my memory of being 11 has become rather misty but I'm reasonably sure it was either white or off-white. One thing I'm certain of is that it was *only* a terminal... It wasn't any form of general purpose machine. So no, it wasn't a sorcerer (which I do remember). The screen was indeed a good old fashioned portable TV!There's a lot of stuff at the link you posted that I do remember, but no one has the same level of interest in terminals that they have in the machines themselves, so I suspect I'm not on a quest with any great probability of success :-(Dave

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 08:17:09 am
content: maybe something here :http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/systems.htm#NS

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 10:59:41 am
content: QuoteNo, no North Star Horizon like the one you described as far as I know.We recently took one like this :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NorthStar_Horizonoff display athttp://www.tnmoc.org/It was in the class room and was running 'Eliza' the AI program that was pretending to be a person (pretty bad at it !).

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 06:47:28 pm
content: The Horizon itself was just like the one you linked, but it had the Blue Steel cover rather than the original, and more common, wooden one...apparently it was a safety compliance modification....I think I've seen the one in the TNMOC a couple of years back, although I was so misty eyed at the PDP11s and other memorabilia that I may have been mistaken.It's really the terminal device that I am chasing though. Eventually it gained a Video Genie as a second terminal, but for the life of me I cannot find the original or any indications that it ever existed!DAVE

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 06:50:35 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 15, 2016, 08:17:09 amThanks....Thats a juicy link (including the various manuals), but still nothing about the terminal device itself.... :-(DAVE

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 08:10:58 pm
content: The one at TNMOC was just connected to a regular RS232 serial terminal.QuoteAre you sure it was a TV?Some computers of that era had composite video output but not modulated rf.Any composite video monitor would work.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 08:21:22 pm
content: Back then a common terminal was the DEC VT100. Please seehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT100for some pictures.

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 08:45:14 pm
content: Quote from: MosherIV on August 15, 2016, 08:10:58 pmDeffo was a TV....and the quality was pretty bad 'cos it was 80 column, IIRC. I cannot honestly say if the input to the TV was modulated or composite though...DAVE

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 08:48:28 pm
content: Quote from: madires on August 15, 2016, 08:21:22 pmNot a VT100 I'm afraid. Over the intervening 35 years I reckon I've come across pretty much everything terminal based (indeed, my personal fave is still the VT320 family) but I've _never_ seen this blow-moulded C64-style keyboard-terminal since. It's no big deal, just one of those irritating itches you sometimes get..DAVE

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 11:34:55 pm
content: What is "blow molded"? The 64 was injection molded. Do you mean something like vacuum forming, aka the 3D printer of the 1970s?

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 01:56:32 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on August 15, 2016, 11:34:55 pmBlow moulding and injection moulding are similar I guess.... Just depends on where the pressure is coming from :-) the upshot is it was a case without any sharp edges or relief. The form factor was approximately that of a C64, but the case was definitely less refined than that...

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 02:44:55 pm
content: Not the c64 predecessor the vic20? Very popular in that time and matches your description?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_VIC-20

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 02:48:29 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 16, 2016, 02:44:55 pmI was only intending the Commodore machines as an illustration of size... It definitely wasn't one of them :-)Dave

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 02:50:37 pm
content: We only had the Tandy terminals at that time, don't match your color description though, they were silver/black.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 04:13:54 pm
content: QuoteI am guessing that you do not remember correctly. I can find no evidence that there was a display adapter for the NSH for a television.It was pretty standard for computers to have a composite video output at that period of time.It was only later (early 80s) that computers started to have output for TVs.The 'White, blow moulded case...a similar form factor to a C64' was probably some kind of keyboard.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 05:55:06 pm
content: It sounds sort of like a CT-64, except for the form factor, and the use of a TV as a monitor:http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/CT_64/CT_64.htmCould it have been one that had somehow lost its dedicated monitor?

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 05:58:02 pm
content: Quote from: MosherIV on August 16, 2016, 04:13:54 pmYour objection doesn't make sense... the NSH was a CP/M computer with serial I/O. People would hook up any kind of serial terminal to it.

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 07:29:22 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on August 16, 2016, 05:55:06 pmWe're heading in the right direction with this thing, but it's not the one :-) Thanks for the suggestion.Dave

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 08:49:38 pm
content: Quote from: MosherIV on August 16, 2016, 04:13:54 pmThere probably was some random S-100 card somewhere that could do the deed, but I'm not aware of it and Indeed, its the serial terminal attached to the Horizon I'm interested in...but those haven't been well remembered over time.QuoteActually, it was common for early, low end, machines to have modulator output (e.g. Nascom 1 in 1977, Nascom 2 in 1979, ZX80 in 1980, ZX81 in 1981, Newbury/Grundy Newbrain in 1982 etc.) simply because there was very little reason for TVs to have composite input at the time. The SCART and composite connectors arrived in the early 1980s and gave a larger range of input options...indeed, I made a healthy living for a while working for a company adding isolation transformers to Grundig TVs to allow them to swallow the RGB output from the BBC Micro.

author: rfeecs
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 09:14:19 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on August 16, 2016, 05:55:06 pmMaybe something like a CT-1024 TV Typewriter, if someone put the keyboard into a nice case:There were also many, many S-100 video terminal cards, starting with the Processor Technology VDM-1:http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/Processor%20Technology/VDM-1/VDM-1.htm

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 09:18:00 pm
content: QuoteYes, low end budget machines.The NSH was not a budget machines that had to be built. It was a professionally manufactured machine which followed the S100 standard. The market for these machines would have been organisations that could afford a video monitor.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 10:02:39 pm
content: Just started another quick search and came across the HP 264x terminals.Wow would love to own one of those from half 1970s.Has a detachable keyboard, also not the one you are looking for I guess?http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=240

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 10:24:25 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 16, 2016, 10:02:39 pmWow, that thing is a beast! ...but no, still not quite what I'm looking for.

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 10:27:56 pm
content: Quote from: MosherIV on August 16, 2016, 09:18:00 pmActually, the NSH was available in kit form...starting at $1599 according to Wackipedia....but we're getting away from the point. Its the serial terminal attached to the machine that I'm trying to find.

author: rfeecs
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 10:33:25 pm
content: Another terminal, from 1979 Byte magazine. SCT-100:

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 10:44:23 pm
content: Quote from: mubes on August 16, 2016, 10:27:56 pmThe "official" terminals, seem to be white, and may look like C64 stuff, I guess. But they DON'T look like TV's.See pages 11 and towards the end of the document, for an apparently different one.http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/Northstar/North%20Star%20Computer%20Catalogs.pdfhttp://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/Northstar/has a huge number of PDF manuals about the system, which could give clues as to the serial terminal used.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 11:31:15 pm
content: Quote from: mubes on August 16, 2016, 08:49:38 pmWere those anything to do with the ones (if I remember correctly), which were sold by Display Electronics ?(Possibly ex-hotel TV's).If so, you made one for me. Thanks!EDIT:If I remember correctly. It had a "special" crt tube. With inline guns or something. Making it slightly similar to trinitron tubes.Essentially it was suppose to make it more suitable for computer use (less fuzzy or something).

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2016, 08:28:01 am
content: QuoteNo, synchronicity doesn't work quite that well :-) It was for a small computer firm up in Mansfield...but as I recall they converted hundreds of the things. Infinitely better picture than via the modulator, but not a patch on the Microvitec monitors that were the alternative that all the schools went for.

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2016, 08:35:51 am
content: QuoteThat's quite a treasure trove of material. Thanks for the link.The terminal I'm looking for connected _to_ a TV, it wasn't integrated into it...so in that sense it was like a C64 or similar. It doesn't seem to match anything in those brochures that I can find (although I haven't scanned the ones that don't look directly relevant yet, such as the DOS manuals). I suspect the terminal was just one that Notts County Council found down the back of a sofa somewhere and shipped out with the units :-/RegardsDAVE