Exporting self made devices to Mexico - dubious propositions - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Post_Apocalyptic_Inventor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 05:24:28 pm
content: Hello guys !I'm sure that some of you have experience in small scale production of electronic devices and their export to other countries. Well that is: "I hope so" ;PHere is my story:About 8 month ago I uploaded a series of videos on Youtube, in which I presented two RFID-related projects ( A detector for finding RFID tags and a "zapper" to disable them.)Ever since I uploaded my RFID related videos on Youtube, I receive dubious Youtube PMs and emails from people, asking me to build RFID-zapper devices for them. Most of the time it's just lone nutjobs, who want to protect themselves from the "New World Order" , specifically those who think that RFID chips have been implanted in their skin while they were asleep, (or was it an alien obduction ? ) Others might be shadowy figures who are not intersted in hobby electronics, but in shoplifting.Long story short: I had alredy started to regret ever having made these videos in the first place, when I started to receive some emails from a guy in Mexico:This time it was an American, who seemingly operates as an importer based in Mexico. He seriouls asked me for a price, and if I could supply him with RFID Zapper devices ( build to disable RFID tags) in larger quantities.Well I told him to find someone nearby that could make similar devices for him and rejected his proposal, as I had all others before.I told him a number of reasons for not doing it, starting with the fact that the circuits I presented in my video were mere hobby-projcets and not designed for commercial purposes. But I also statet numerous legal problems, ranging from regulations concerning technical isseus and EMI etc. to safety issues and the fact that the technology could be abused for illegal activities.But it seemed that he wasn't concerned with legal issues at all and he said that "importing these Devices to Mexico" would be "no problem". He said he's doing stuff like this for over 15 years.I originally made my RFID-Zapper videos as a reaction to the fact that I had found an RFID tag in a new sweater, that I had just bought in a store nearby. The videos I made as a reaction to that were intended for people like me, who are intersted in electronics. But it seems they never really reached the right audience. Even though I was concerned over hidden RFID chips in my clothes and I believe in the right of the individual to defend himself against the surveiillance state, I wouldn't approve of someone who sells devices like the RFID-zapper to thugs on the streets...I hope that some day I will find someone, who asks me to build a less problematic device for him in large numbers...The whole story ( as dubious as it is) made clear to me that I'm quiet ignorant when it comes to the legal situation, that a circuit designer is faced with in the real world.And that's why I want to ask you if anyone of you even knows, which regulations come into place if you would sell electronic devices to a country like Mexico. How can I even inform myself about the legal situation concerning safety standards in consumer products, tolerances for EMI etc. when we are talking about second or third world countries ? Which problems are to be expected with customs offices ?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 06:10:48 pm
content: I would first state that you probably would be best not actually shipping anything with possible "shady" uses to anywhere outside your own EU. You probably would be best having it as open source, so anybody wanting one can, on their own and without any involvement on your part, download the boards and bom, and get a contract manufacturer in eg China, to make the units up for them and ship to them. No input on your side and no involvement. Customs may or may not look favourably on importing stuff that can be classed as either for illegal use or which can be classified as a weapon, and you may wake up to a house full of suits and a long explanation as to how you were involved.

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 07:02:12 pm
content: Send it anonymous and get paid in bitcoin, or just get someone in china to reship / manufacture it for you.It is not like someone actually checks packages. You can buy "suicide" powder on ebay from china ...

author: Scutarius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 11:08:00 pm
content: Hi,In small quantity you can import almost anything to must of the countries, things from Alibaba and eBay are all over the globe.I live in Mexico, and despite de bad reputation that Mexico has importing my makerbot Replicator was a pain in the ass, you know why? because it seemed to be too "home-made" , and probably the FedEx employee didn't know at that time what a "3D printer" was.I suggest you not to make this kind of deal, probably he is already contacting some local engineers to replicate your design and who knows what he is really planing to use it for. For what you said, in the best case scenario, he is reselling this gadgets on TV like those electronic pest repellerhttps://www.google.com.mx/search?q=Pest+offense+electronic+pest+repeller&es_sm=91&biw=1280&bih=701&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=PtktVNfcJcmmyATcrYL4BQ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=+electronic+pest+repeller, for that they don't even have to be a regulated product (sad but true)to sum up, if it looks professional made, with a fake company name, good documentation of what it's suppose to be and all the fake paperwork I don't see any problem to import, to sell those things it's a different story.how many did he ask?

author: calzap
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 06:16:06 am
content: You would probably be OK selling the devices to an importer in Mexico. Just be careful what you call them and with the documentation. "RFID Zapper" is probably not the best the title to use. "RFID Tester" or "RFID Diagnostic Device" would probably sound a lot nicer to government authorities. Shipping circuit boards and cases separately with final assembly to be done in Mexico might also make things go more smoothly. It would raise fewer questions about the ultimate uses of the device and put you in the position of a parts supplier rather than a consumer goods supplier. Circuit boards with just some code letters on them aren't likely to look out of the ordinary.Of course, one market for the devices will, in fact, be folks who want to take them into stores to defeat anti-theft RFIDs. Hard to say how many would be bought by criminals versus people wanting to deactivate RFIDs in merchandise they legally own.Check-out the buyer and get at least partial payment up front.Mike in California

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 06:32:29 am
content: It beats me as to why an intelligent person would upload a technical video about RFID zappers, knowing full well that it could be used for illegal purposes.What's next, the blueprints for a home-made H-bomb?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 06:38:35 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on October 03, 2014, 06:32:29 amI wouldn't compare one with the other. A lot of technical videos can be used for illegal purposes.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 06:43:05 am
content: So, just because there are lots of dubious videos on the net, adding another one is just dandy.This particular one is, predictably, only attracting the interest of shady characters.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 06:47:02 am
content: Tell that to the Chaos Computer ClubEdit: link to their videos, very interesting all of them, well most of themhttps://www.youtube.com/user/CCCdeVideos/videosHmm, English videos:https://www.youtube.com/user/CCCen/videosReally, he just put a video not the circuit.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 06:54:46 am
content: Video title: How to build an RFID tag detector

author: Post_Apocalyptic_Inventor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 07:03:53 am
content: First of all: Thank you for your advice. I'm collecting it and please: "keep it coming"About the video: The video series presents several circuits that could be used for the purpose.The circuit that was posted by the other member is another device though.And I admit that my stand on this might sound naive for some:But the industry doesn't ask the people if they want to have hidden RFID tags in their clothes or other itmes, nor does it make any effort to tell them about the capabilities of that technology.I don't say that there is a conspiracy by the government or any company to spy on its people/ customers via RFID, but there is certainly the possibility to do it. The recent revelations about the NSA and the involvement of several major companies in their spying operations, doesn't give you exactly a good reason to trust them to use other technologies without some hidden agenda.Furthermore there are several alternative technologies to RFID tags that can be used as anti-theft devices by shop owners etc.Therefore I don't see why it would be a moral issue to give people the knowledge to protect themselves. Furthermore: The circuit presented in the video cannot be replicated without some knowledge about electronics, lowering the chance of it being used by your everyday lowlife. I do understand though that some of you will have different opinion on this.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 07:12:12 am
content: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cccen+rfidExample:Regarding MiFare Classic

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 07:28:08 am
content: Just so I get this right. You are contacted by a scumbag who wants you to export a number of those devices to Mexico? Right? And instead of just ignoring the guy you are arguing with the scumbag about potential difficulties exporting them to Mexico? I.e. you are seriously entertaining the idea to enter into that business transaction. Right?Ever heard the proverb "If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas"? Don't you think if something goes wrong that the scumbag will have any moral qualms to let you ending up holding the short end of the stick? Or that the scumbag will have any moral qualms not paying you?And don't forget, society has the habit of branding people who do business with scumbags as scumbags, too.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 07:31:03 am
content: The industry sees RFID as a costly necessity. Too many people have sticky fingers. If you have a viable cheap alternative to prevent shoplifting, they would be glad to hear about it.I don't see what this has to do with the NSA and privacy rights, but hey, if it puts your conscience at rest, good for you.

author: Nermash
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 07:33:18 am
content: Usually buyer in his domicile country checks what the import regulations are, and what kind of paperwork is required. This is what I usually do when importing things in my country.In any case importer and/or his forwarding agent are responsible for the importation procedures.If I were you, provided that payment is in advance or otherwise adequately covered, I would gladly sell anything to anybody, provided that the stuff I am selling is not illegal in any way, shape or form.I would not declare it as a RFID zapper on the papers, but something along the lines of "EM pulsing device" with standard waiver disclaimer attached.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 07:38:52 am
content: My problem with RFIDs is that security via silence is not security at all.If some tech has security holes we are better off pointing them out instead of whispering, "hey you gotta fix this". MyFare is still active and as unsecured as always, and it's used all around the planet, not just for bus/trains but actual purchases.There is no central database so you can actually charge your card with cash. But hush, don't tell anyone because if we all keep it secret then it's secure enough.Edit: for example if the card starts the random number generator from power up at the same frequency with the same seed number when it issues the client hello, the random number will always be the same.And that's just the beginning, when the receiver just listens and doesn't talk back to the card that's another problem, and there are more problems like that. Like the sequence being a pseudo random polynomial curve very predictable.Keeping things silent doesn't fix the problems, it just allows some to take advantage of others. Sure it's illegal, but stupid should be illegal too.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 07:44:30 am
content: If shoplifting gets out of hand because too many crooks arrive with tag detectors, the industry will have to change the system, with something more secure and probably more expensive. As usual, the honest shopper will bear the cost of the new device.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 08:07:29 am
content: I get it and I know the consequences, but ignoring the problem doesn't mean the problem is not there.Since the infrastructure keeps on growing, it's just making it more costly to fix it the longer it gets ignored.Proprietary cryptos are always going to fail, actually I was wrong on the polynomial, it's really just a linear-feedback shift register, way too easy to predict.Not all RFID solution vendors are that lazy, but companies will buy the cheaper solution and that's going to be vulnerable.Edit: And I'm not talking about detectors I'm talking about fraud not just shoplifting.

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 09:57:15 am
content: just sell the stuff... under this topic i got a google ad from an uk company that sells portable 'security tag remover' to whomever wants to buy it.For legal stuff give it a legit name and get the buyer to sign a disclaimer. There are definitely legit uses for the product.

author: calzap
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 03:09:31 pm
content: There are a good many electronic devices past and present that have both good and evil uses. Tone generators have been used to test landline phone systems, but also to get free long distance access. Mod kits have been used to extend the frequency range of radios, but in some cases were used to eavesdrop on cordless or cell phone conversations. Media recording devices of all types have been used to make legitimate commercial and private recordings, but have also been used to circumvent copyrights or eavesdrop.Not sure where a RFID destroyer fits in this scheme. Certainly there are legitimate private and commercial uses. However, the dark side is so obvious that one might face charges if caught with one in a store even if it was not used. I wouldn't try to pass through customs with one either. Even if the officers didn't think you were going to shoplift, they would be concerned about some nefarious use regarding RFIDs in passports. Many libraries and museums are using RFID for antitheft purposes and would not take kindly to discovering a RFID destroyer in the building. Even farm animals are being chipped today, so bringing one to a farm might mark you as rustler! Don't know if children are being chipped, but if and when they are, having a RFID destroyer around them might be construed as intent to kidnap. If you have one of these devices, leave it at home.Mike in California

author: Zeta
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 05:28:13 pm
content: I say you should have just sold it. It is a device with legit uses. You are not responsible for what the user uses it for. On the other hand if you discuss with him the potential illegal issues you admit you know it might be used illegally and so you have to make him send you a signed letter (Notarial) stating he won't use it ( or knowingly let others use it) for illegal purposes.Import/export restrictions are a headache. But if you send directly to the buyer, you only have to be concerned with export restrictions/tariffs/tax-back. The buyer is the one who is responsible for checking import restrictions. Your name will appear on the exports papers and the buyer will be the importer on file. Just make sure to say what it is and declare the real value of the goods.Actually, I think the best way is not to do the export yourself. Tell the user you don't do exports and if he wants he could use a mail forwarder. That way you just have to be aware of selling regulations/taxes in your country. Your involvement ends when you ship the items to the buyer's mailbox (most probably in Miami), let the buyer and mail forwarder deal with the import/export.Import of RF items or anything radiating-reading/communications stuff is regulated in almost every country with strong restrictions. There is a high probability the package will be held in customs for a long time or even rejected permission. Get the cash in advance, always use a tracked service and make sure to inform the buyer how its gonna be declared. The buyer will probably ask you to declare a lower value or a different name never ever accept to lie in the declaration.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 12:19:24 am
content: In the US at least, the first step in exporting ANYTHING is to identify the item's Export Control Classification Number, or ECCN. This is involves sifting through hundreds of pages of extensive and extremely specific descriptions and finding the one that best matches your item. It's not hard, per se, but it is tedious and requires paying careful attention to how specific terms are defined within the classification documents. If you're not sure of the classification, you can request an official designation from the Bureau of Industry and Security, which handles all of this under the umbrella of the Department of Commerce. The ECCN is crucial, and any reputable shipping company or even freight forwarder ought to ask for it when making commercial shipments. Once you have the ECCN (or if the item does not fit any particular ECCN, in which case it's generally classified as EAR99) and you know the destination country, you can identify what restrictions are in place and if an export license is required. It's possible that an item may be covered by multiple ECCNs, in which case generally the one that is most restrictive for the destination country will be used. There are different restrictions in place for different destinations for different reasons, such as 'Crime Prevention', 'Anti Terror', 'National Security', etc. Once you've done all of that, and even if you've determined that your item doesn't require an export license, exporters still have a requirement to basically perform due diligence that the end use of the item is not restricted. This is particularly true of 'dual use' items, which have mundane, unrestricted uses, and nefarious, restricted uses.Anyway, as far as I can tell, you have three basic options when looking to export: Spend a lot of time and effort to go through a lot of information and figure it out yourself, spend a lot of money to hire a consultant to figure it out for you, or just ship it and hope you don't get hit with serious fines and possibly jail time if you happen to get it wrong. Personally, I'd be quite hesitant to export anything remotely questionable as an individual--I'd want to make sure I had the shield of a corporate entity in place, and even then I'd be reluctant to ship anything that might be considered dual use.Of course, I am not a lawyer, your industry and/or country might have different requirements, and I haven't even mentioned ITAR yet. Your best bet is probably to contact your country's equivalent of the Department of Commerce or local small business association. Generally your country wants you to export goods to other countries, so they ought to be quite helpful if they have any sense.

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 01:06:45 am
content: You know that large quantities of drugs money and weapons are sent every day via the postal system all over the world. As long as they don't fix that you are safe. Heck if you are worried about shipping just goto a small post office (no cameras) pay them cash and get it send anonymous. Or just get someone to do it for you, in that case they are responsible.And all the sue / jail happy stuff that is described above is not something that really happens in the EU.Seriously who the f wants to steal stuff in shops?all the expensive stuff is locked up anyway and for 50-100 euro that you might steal is certainly not worth the risk.