A Sad Time For All Of Us - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 02:24:00 am
content: Sadness fills the skies as this news has come across my desk.Hewlett-Packard Historical Archive Destroyed In California FiresFrom Slashdot...Hewlett-Packard Historical Archive Destroyed In California Fires (pressdemocrat.com) 55Posted by EditorDavid on Sunday October 29, 2017 @06:34PM from the out-of-print dept.An anonymous reader quotes the Press Democrat:When deadly flames incinerated hundreds of homes in Santa Rosa's Fountaingrove neighborhood earlier this month, they also destroyed irreplaceable papers and correspondence held nearby and once belonging to the founders of Silicon Valley's first technology company, Hewlett-Packard. The Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard, the tech pioneers who in 1938 formed an electronics company in a Palo Alto garage with $538 in cash. More than 100 boxes of the two men's writings, correspondence, speeches and other items were contained in one of two modular buildings that burned to the ground at the Fountaingrove headquarters of Keysight Technologies. Keysight, the world's largest electronics measurement company, traces its roots to HP and acquired the archives in 2014 when its business was split from Agilent Technologies -- itself an HP spinoff.The Hewlett and Packard collections had been appraised in 2005 at nearly $2 million and were part of a wider company archive valued at $3.3 million. However, those acquainted with the archives and the pioneering company's impact on the technology world said the losses can't be represented by a dollar figure... Karen Lewis, the former HP staff archivist who first assembled the collections, called it irresponsible to put them in a building without proper protection. Both Hewlett-Packard and Agilent earlier had housed the archives within special vaults inside permanent facilities, complete with foam fire retardant and other safeguards, she said. "This could easily have been prevented, and it's a huge loss," Lewis said.Lewis has described the collection as "the history of Silicon Valley ... This is the history of the electronics industry." Keysight Technologies spokesman Jeff Weber said the company "is saddened by the loss of documents that remind us of our visionary founders, rich history and lineage to the original Silicon Valley startup."23 Californians were killed in the fires, which also destroyed 6,800 homes, and Weber says Keysight had taken "appropriate and responsible" steps to protect the archive, but "the most destructive firestorm in state history prevented efforts to protect portions of the collection."https://slashdot.org/story/17/10/29/2225212/hewlett-packard-historical-archive-destroyed-in-california-fires

author: radhaz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 03:37:30 am
content: Sad indeed. Hopefully the digitizing process was well underway.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 03:42:22 am
content: This is the third thread on the subject.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 04:17:14 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 30, 2017, 03:42:22 amI didn't know that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 07:05:19 am
content: The buildings:

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 07:07:38 am
content: http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/10/12/wine-country-inferno-singes-keysight-technologies-santa-rosa-hq-complex-viable/

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 07:24:38 am
content: http://www.pressdemocrat.com/business/7559762-181/hewlett-packard-archives-at-keysight-destroyed

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 07:28:41 am
content: Apparently, 49 employees lost their homes too. It's hard to describe what such a loss means, but it seems Keysight is looking out for them.

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 09:08:52 am
content: I am not a fire expert and where I live we do not know such fires. Can somebody please explain me why all the surrounding trees and bushes are OK but just the buildings in the middle burned down? Where did the fire came from? I always thought that such a fire rampage was eating its way through everything in its way ... but apparently not here.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 09:22:39 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 30, 2017, 07:05:19 amOuch. That looks like something out of Tarkovsky.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 09:29:47 am
content: Quote from: Pinkus on October 30, 2017, 09:08:52 amIt looks strange, doesn't it?I think what happens is that burning embers carry on the wind and lodge in some place where they can ignite combustible material and start a fire. Buildings are dry and flammable while trees and bushes are green and wet.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 10:03:40 am
content: Quote from: IanB on October 30, 2017, 09:29:47 amExactly. When there is a nearby fire or, due to the magnitude of this event a "not-so-nearby" fire, the temperature causes massive air displacements that can make a massive number of embers of considerable size travel significant distances. Here in Dallas I have heard how entire neighbourhoods were consumed by fire due to this effect.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 11:46:56 am
content: There is an ongoing fight between the Feds (ICE) and the local Sheriff, and others regarding an individual who is known to start fires. Down here in the south end of the state we have a constant problem of illegals starting fires in the back country. Wildfire is a big problem in the south end of the state, we have had two wildfire complexes that exceeded 250,000 acers in the last fifteen years in San Diego County alone.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 12:45:38 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 30, 2017, 07:02:35 am

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 10:14:05 pm
content: Official response from Keysight, which says nothing.http://about.keysight.com/en/newsroom/backgrounders/archive/

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 05:02:54 am
content: Quote from: Pinkus on October 30, 2017, 09:08:52 amyeah, that looks suss how it defies fire physics like that, the trees and bushes may be asbestos plantsGet ready for the fugly high rise shoe box apartments to go up.. or does such easy profiteering only happen in Australia ?

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 07:29:28 am
content: Here is a "before" photo from Google Earth. The two burned buildings had flat roofs. Probably wind born embers landed on them and set them ablaze. The neighboring buildings aren't flat, and look like they might be tile roofs. The flat roofs could have been tar roofs.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 09:00:16 am
content: All the other pioneering electronics companies better fire up their scanners asapbefore hot winds, floods, twisters, torchers, rioters, lootersunemployed STD Klingons mercing for scumbag developersdo them them over too

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 09:02:01 am
content: Quote from: Tom45 on November 01, 2017, 07:29:28 ami dont think any civil engineering code calls for combustible roofing... but after seeing some wildfires footages in youtube, its possible the wind born embers landed on something else combustible surrounding (or get inside) the building. i was thinking of "planned destruction for another development" plot by some sith lord like usually happened "somewhere", but i dont think there is such a notion in america...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 11:39:31 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on November 01, 2017, 09:02:01 amLeaves or pine needles in gutters are a well known factor in fires. They greatly increase the likelihood of a building catching fire.I think this might be the Keysight campus, in which case it wouldn't help anyone for the buildings to be gone, because Keysight would get to say what'd happen. The burn patterns don't appear too remarkable to me. I've seen total destruction next to intact items on the fringes of devastated areas before. It can be very surreal.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 02:02:50 pm
content: Before & After

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 02:08:18 pm
content: My two cents:One would have thought that a high-tech company like Keysight, would have had scanned and converted to electronic format all those archives.And once in electronic format, would have saved them locally and in cloud storage.....

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 02:09:16 pm
content: Quote from: Pinkus on October 30, 2017, 09:08:52 amQuite common, airborne embers:https://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/plan-and-prepare/know-your-riskQuote

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 02:11:47 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on November 01, 2017, 02:08:18 pmEspecially one that employs a full time archivist:https://www.linkedin.com/in/devon-dawson-a119169/

author: KNSSoftware
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 02:17:30 pm
content: Can they say for sure it was started by the wildfires, or could it just be coincidence, and a building that still would have burned down for some other reason, especially being a paper archive, and needing less ignition than most? With so many fires, will every incident still be investigated to identify the true root cause? If not, we may never know.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 05:32:26 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on November 01, 2017, 02:08:18 pmCloud storage is just an abstraction of local storage.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 05:35:14 pm
content: Quote from: KNSSoftware on November 01, 2017, 02:17:30 pmIt's pretty obvious why it burned down. There was a huge forest fire. There really is no reason to think of anything else at this point of time.There's no need for baseless speculation. The events are dramatic enough as they are.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 08:12:49 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 01, 2017, 05:32:26 pmRegardless of semantics, a duplicate copy saved in a backup server in a location different from the main server.

author: KNSSoftware
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 10:21:31 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 01, 2017, 05:35:14 pmExcuse me, how is asking whether there is further confirmation or facts, baseless speculation?? I have not made a guess that something else did happen. I imagine California as highly dense as it is, gets more than it's fair share of fires, and many overlapping with this tragic incident. Asking whether, due to the nature of this type of commercial building, an investigation is likely, looking into whether it was another victim, or isolated incident (as many still will be) is not unreasonable.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 10:32:33 pm
content: Quote from: KNSSoftware on November 01, 2017, 10:21:31 pmBoth the news item and the Keysight statement literally say the Tubbs Fire also consumed the buildings. Saying "we may never know" the cause is speculation and introducing uncertainty where there is none. No one questions the cause of the incident, as its reported various times by a number of sources. A massive wildfire burned down the buildings.

author: Chris56000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 10:40:04 pm
content: Hi!Are the Hewlett-Packard/Keysight Test Equipment User & Service Manuals, HP Bench Briefs, Service Journals, etc., etc., affected by this fire or have all these documents been archived digitally and still available from servers not affected by the fire?One point I might make is that where large amounts of paper documents are archived it's so easy for a fire to rapidly rage out of control and completely destroy the building - although this was believed to be an electrical fault/spark that ignited flammable rubbish, the devastating fire in Norwich Central Library that occurred in August 1994 illustrates how easily such buildings can be rapidly destroyed from even the smallest cause, and Norwich Central Library was barely ten yards across the road from the Fire Station and they still couldn't save it!Chris WIlliams

author: KNSSoftware
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 10:50:27 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 01, 2017, 10:32:33 pmSpeculation: the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.I have done neither. "we may never know' is not a theory. Just the commentary of my understanding, albeit flimsy and and unreliable one, on why fire investigations, especially on commercial one with so much combustible material, probably still need to (and do?) occur even during extreme circumstances; so assumptions are not made.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2017, 03:49:35 am
content: Its not speculation, its a provocation for query of the root cause, because the people of wisdom will not take the claim easy when the reality shows otherwise...it can sometime be good so further investigation to the truth will be conducted..without it, the sith lord (if there is one) will get lose in happiness.. but sometime its bad for disturbing public order... pick your side.. ymmv..Btw... imho cloud storage is remote storage, not local... i can delete the file locally but somehow it still exist in the cloud so it gives illusion it still exist locally to mortal, until the server storing the file remotely on the other side of the globe burnt down...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2017, 11:22:05 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on November 02, 2017, 03:49:35 amThe cloud can be local if you self host your cloud solution. That's the problem with these buzz words. They're vaguely defined and cause all sort of assumptions and confusion.Cloud storage is nothing more than a subset of network storage, and actually not really a unique thing at all. It's just a fancy name attributed to something that has been around for years. I guess it helps sales to push the product.

author: rfeecs
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2017, 04:35:34 pm
content: Another article with an update:https://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-the-valley/tech-history/silicon-revolution/loss-of-hewlettpackard-archive-a-wakeup-call-for-computer-historians100 boxes of documents sounds like it would fit in a small closet in that big building. Also sounds like the bulk of historic documents have ended up in various other locations.Quote"one of the least significant spinouts"

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2017, 06:31:57 pm
content: Flat roof, silver painted, so very likely a bitumenous waterproofing with a topcoat of bitumenous aluminium silver paint as solar protection. This is flammable, and is typically used on a concrete roof as waterproofing, as it is a very long lasting and easy to maintain layer, and is both cheap and fast to install using only simple tools and gas burners to soften the sheets and weld them together and to the concrete with a thin hot bitumen layer. It does burn if there is something that acts like a wick, and there is enough heat to melt the bitumen and cause it to wick up and vapourise, otherwise it is not too flammable.Tthey know they are in a high fire danger area, and that the flat roof would definitely have glowing embers fall on it, and that they did not have a roof deluge system and tanks to keep the roof wet during this fire is just poor choice. Reminds me on watching CNN years ago, when there was yet another wildfire, and the aftermath showing the massive burnt residential districts, with only chimney stacks and roads showing above the ashes. In the middle of this was however a single house standing undamaged, built by an immigrant Korean engineer. CNN talking head interviewing him, and asked him why his house was the only one still there. His reply " I Thought everybody know wood burn", with his house, built from brick and plaster, with a moderately steep ceramic tile roof, with protected eaves and no wood exterior parts, that he built himself, as example.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2017, 06:44:09 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on November 02, 2017, 06:31:57 pmThe building materials used in houses in several places in the US are absolutely stupid: cardboard, styrofoam and popsicle sticks. If I had enough resources I would build one just as the engineer above (and I don't live in places plagued with wildfires, but tornadoes instead).

author: CoalCreekPlastics
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 02, 2017, 06:56:30 pm
content: At best this is careless. A terrible loss. Where I live the Boulder Office of Emergency Management advises people in the foothills and mountains that they are in a high-fire-danger area. They provide them the steps to take to mitigate the risk. People don't listen.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2017, 07:57:39 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on November 02, 2017, 06:31:57 pmFrom what I have seen the construction of American buildings re fire proofing is not a patch on other countries. Built from wood with flammable roofs. Garages with no fireproofing between them and the rest of the roof/house. I could go on.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2017, 10:21:33 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on November 02, 2017, 06:31:57 pmEven though not having your house burned down is better than the alternative, it's still a huge loss. Most burned down areas need decades to rebuild, if they ever do, and being the only one left in a burnt wasteland is no fun. You'll likely be stuck there, because no one will want to buy it from you.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2017, 11:10:09 pm
content: Not having your house burn down is ALWAYS preferable to having it burn down.One thing we should be aware of, California has been so dry for extended periods in the past that huge lakes in the Sierras had forests growing on what is now their lake beds - land which is now in many cases hundreds of feet underwater!Those trees are in many cases still there and still look like trees (in other words, the shift from the dry weather pattern to the wet one occurred in an extremely short space of time, geologically speaking)These submerged trees, some of which are still quite tall, now look like Christmas trees because they accumulate garlands of fishing line and lures - people have dived down there and photographed them.Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 02, 2017, 10:21:33 pm