Apple removes Mac Pro from sale in the EU after a amendment  safety regIEC609501 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 03:20:07 pm
content: electronics safety standard IEC 60950-1 increases requirements around electrical port protection and the fan guards in the system. Apple does not plan to modify their machines and will simply pull them from market in the EU. Apple wishes to warn customers and partners about the change so that they would have sufficient time to order Mac Pro units and meet any needs prior to 1 March, when the amendment comes into effect.http://www.macworld.co.uk/mac/news/?newsid=3423807damn ill educated bureaucratsa injury from the internal of a computer would require disassembly and powering to up whod injure themselves with the fan if the housing internally was removed ?who sticks their hands in these fans most are made with cheepo dc brush motorsid bet hurt but serious injury ?

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 03:33:16 pm
content: Sounds like "let's look for an excuse so we can start to ramp down production early to cut our losses".Don't tell me Apple would have any problems to revise one of their products. Don't tell me their engineers have a problem with developing the missing fan guard and increasing the clearance. Especially if they have years of advanced warning. They regularly revise their products - if they thing it pays off.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 11:32:19 pm
content: I'm far from supporting Apple, but seriously? No one is going to injure themselves on a computer fan. What a stupid regulation.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2013, 12:50:56 am
content: Quote from: Sionyn on February 02, 2013, 03:20:07 pmThe rules only apply to operator access areas ...I see nothing in the rules on fans which is particularly onerous ... they are from 2009 as well. Apple simply doesn't want to expend any effort any more on the Mac Pro it seems.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2013, 05:34:12 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 02, 2013, 11:32:19 pmNot sure what fans Apple is using but in a modern high performance PC, it's pretty common to find one that would definitely be dangerous to touch when spinning.Of course, the new law is as silly as "if I plug in this toaster and turn it on, I can easily touch some red hot live wires."

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2013, 05:44:03 am
content: Imagine how much safer E.U. residents would be if some organization actually tried to stem the crap flood of non-compliant wall warts and other "chernobyl x5000 house warmer" products coming from china.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2013, 07:00:00 am
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on February 03, 2013, 05:44:03 amLike all those providing these alertshttp://ec.europa.eu/consumers/dyna/rapex/rapex_archives_en.cfm?

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2013, 09:45:39 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on February 03, 2013, 07:00:00 amEven contains a:Quote

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2013, 09:58:28 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 02, 2013, 11:32:19 pmbelieve me I opened a lot of macpro and you won't get injured by the fans, but really I cutted my fingers and hands many times with some sharp corners of this computer. but never with the fans. really stupid regulation.by the way, apple has already announced a new macpro model for 2013 and I'm pretty sure they dont want to change the actual model to answer a stupid european law they better stop the sellings they dont sell that much and wait for the new model.they already did this years ago with their webcam (the iSight) that whas not rosh compliant and they stopped selling it in europe for some months and then never sold a new model because they included webcams in all their newcoming products.

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2013, 11:34:22 am
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on February 03, 2013, 09:58:28 amTim Cook promised they were "working on something great for later next year", but there's been no details on what he meant, let alone a formal announcement.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2013, 08:07:36 pm
content: but, but , but the fans are INSIDE the machine.. you can't touch them from the outside !What's next ? desktop fans with an outer and an inner casing ? so just in case you remove the outer casing there is another one to protect you ?Europe should outlaw anything that spins or rotates. It would make life much safer. No more cars, no more machinery to get pulled into, no fans , no bicycles to fall off , no noisy motorbikes ,Even better :they could outright outlaw any kind of movement. Then they can all sit very still and in a few weeks the whole problem will solve itself and the rest of the world can move on.What a bunch of morons. Europe is a lost cause.So what about all those graphics cards makers ? those fans are exposed ... same with all the fans bolted on cpu heatsinks. they are exposed. So all that stuff needs a fan-grille installed so you can't touch it anymore ?

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2013, 08:47:27 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 03, 2013, 08:07:36 pmYou can, they are at the backside, covered with a rather strange plastic mesh.But never let facts get in the way of a rant.As for the rest, Europe bad, bla bla bla. Like many immigrants you overcompensate your status with extended nationalism and xenophobia.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2013, 09:05:52 pm
content: By taking advantage of Google and some people's lackluster respect for copyrights you could all just read the rules and point out what's so unreasonable about them ... I for one don't see it.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2013, 09:48:59 pm
content: The fans, really, have nothing to do with this. The fact that they provide a handle to remove the side panel instead of a screw has literally everything to do with it.I am getting sick and tired of the 'use of a tool' regulation..And for those of you who think computer fans are harmless, I encourage you to stick your finger into a 15000RPM 60mm fan and let me know how much finger it took off.

author: gxti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2013, 12:05:38 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 03, 2013, 09:48:59 pmI doubt anybody's computer has a 15,000 RPM fan in it unless it's a 1U rackmount server, and that's because they're 40mm and have to go that fast to move enough air.I got in a fight with a CPU fan once. It liberated some epidermis and hurt like hell but far from causing permanent damage. Case fans just go "thunk" and make you curse a lot.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2013, 12:26:43 am
content: I dunno, if you are working on a computer with the fans turned on, you should just acknowledge the fact that you could potentially harm yourself. Not that you really would...but that you could.It's like me working on my car. I could get my hand caught in the radiator fan, and I'm not going to go suing Ford motor company if I stick my hand in it.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2013, 12:31:14 am
content: Quote from: gxti on February 04, 2013, 12:05:38 amTell that to the one which nearly had my finger a couple years ago. It did not come out of a 1U server, it came out of a Pentium 3 workstation.QuoteDepends on the fan. The ones in a Mac Pro can be quite vicious at full speed.Let's just clarify something: In order for this to be a problem at all, they ran the numbers and met the legal definition for a fan capable of at least causing pain. It would not surprise me if they exceeded that level.

author: eliocor
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2013, 05:08:39 am
content: Having developed several devices which follow the (and not only) IEC 60950-1 norms, I can say those rules are not stupid at all.To me the typical rantings and moaning (made by people that have never studied/accessed them) mean only one thing: they have never developed a professional device which MUST be safe in almost every occasion, even the strangest.If you start to follow the typical IEC/UL/... rules, you'll discover your way of designing devices will be never the same because you will take more care in designing your product.Do not follow those rules and your product will be not far from come Chinese crap.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2013, 10:11:46 am
content: Quote from: eliocor on February 04, 2013, 05:08:39 amHowever, that is not necessary in most cases. Mac Pros are not toys for kids.We have dozens of computers here with no fan grills (removed for better airflow) and no one has been sticking body parts in them.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2013, 10:32:59 am
content: Quote from: amyk on February 04, 2013, 10:11:46 amMaybe not, but that doesn't necessarily preclude little kids from getting near them.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2013, 12:23:36 pm
content: Quote from: eliocor on February 04, 2013, 05:08:39 amIt's just unfortunate that the Mac Pro falls afoul of the standard. It will, however, be one of the few which does.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2013, 07:08:40 am
content: The problems does seem to be inside the case. The rear grille is ok.The mac met the original statement and the revised one. Its the new addendum 1 that kills it.Fnny thing is that this is a standard from 2010 that goes in effect march 2013...http://www.tuv.com/en/greater_china/about_us_cn/regulations_standard_updates/latest_regulations_en/latest_regulation_content_en_118211.htmlI managed to find documentation of the changes. The problem with th mac fan is that it is large and heavy enough to fall in a cat iii now. There is no problem with safety from the OUTSIDE. Howevere, there is a problem with it on the inside. This is consideed a user access area. Since this fan is a class iii it needs a grillle on the inside too...Funny thing is that the same document has a paragraph stating that, if the same area is accessed by a technician then no grille is required.So if a mac user,that is not a technician, opens the case the fan fails safety. If a techie opens it , it doesn't ...There is an equation that defines the category.K= 6e-7 x m x r x r x N x NWhere m is mass in kilogramsR is radiusAnd N is the rotations per minute of the fan . So its mass times radius squared times rpm squared times 6e-7.A class i is. (Rpm/1500)+(k/2400). If that number is less then 1 it is unlikely to cause pain or injuryA class ii is (rpm/2200)+(k/3600). If that number is less then 1 it is likely to cause pain but not injury.A class 3 is anything that does not comply tih a i or a ii and thus likely to cause injusry.A class i is allowed in an operator area. A class ii also but needs a warning label , a class iii needs a different warning label.They also revised the 'test finger' and it is possible that the external grille now fails.Fixing this would require a new fan with a new grille and appropriate warning labels.The other issue is the safety of the ports. That apparently hinges on the power plug where apple uses their own iec plug. It fails the new pull strenth at hogh temp... Something that is easily solved by usong a different power cord. As for the ports on the front side. That has to do with the current limiters employed.Its all kinda weird. Im willing to bet that a lot of other co puters will also fail the new specs. Just apple is making this public. They could alter the machine slightly but i think they prefer to wait until later this year when the new models will be introduced.As for the problem with europe. Everyone there want to do something and it's a bit of a twit race. They all take off in a different direction. To give you an idea of the absurd situation they end up in.Europe has ratified regulations for emissions from cell towers. Some countries find these don't go far enough so they declare tighter regulations. It goes beyond that. Some cities in some countries declare their own rules... So right now we have a situation in brussels that effectively blocks the deployment of 4g and lte wireless equipment. So here you have the capital of europe and they have to make do with slower wireless networks links than the farmtown nextdoor. Simply because everyone there does his own thing... Lets make a unified europe , but well have the english keep their pound, the danish have their exceptions and lets not put the french and the germans next to each other at the conference table... It will never work right... Not as long as they all pull in the same direction.By the way ,these new rules are only for a specific group in europe. I believe there are two countries that are exempt from them... ( mandatory eye-roll) . It's a mess..The new standard also has provisions for exploding cd or dvd disks ... I just found an. Interesting online condensed version :http://www.slideshare.net/miraclejackhsu/introduce-iec-60950-1-2nd-ed-a1for-clientGo read for yourself

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2013, 12:19:11 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 05, 2013, 07:08:40 amAnd what are the definitions of "technician" and "user access area"? Odd they consider the inside "user access area" when Macs are well known for discouraging user-service...I just calculated that number for the main CPU fan in the system I'm using right now... 1.02 so it'll likely hurt but not injure (no, I'mnotgoing to test this.)

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2013, 05:23:53 pm
content: Hmm. I fear for my finger with my AFB1212SHE now. Scary

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2013, 08:45:17 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on February 03, 2013, 07:00:00 amunfortunately most of these warning are useless :>> The product poses a risk of injuries because of the presence of an unattached drawstring with free ends which are too longseriously, how this can be dangerous ? This is because of EN14682, but well, there is no single word about max length .. it must be simply "not too long for specific age" .. so you can assume some ppl got pissed off, payed a lot of money to block some chinese products ...

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2013, 06:17:40 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 05, 2013, 07:08:40 amI agree with you. At some point you need to let natural selection take over. I have a fairly open old fan on my bench. It has metal blades and could probably take a limb off. My cat climbs all over it but has figured out that its life is best served on not poking its nose in there.Designing products for Europe is just a total pain. Everytime your ready for a new product release, they've revised their standards and there is now a new test you need to comply with.I don't really care its just it ends up being really expensive for any OEM to comply with all of them, many of them requiring certified testing of some kind or another. Test labs are just a total money sink. I've done a product for a little startup and I purposely avoided any European distribution and probably saved them about 15k in test time. Thats peanuts for a big company but the company couldn't afford it unless it was a proven seller. So the US market was targeted and if it sells well, they may look at european certifications later. Its just an anti-competitive environment. I suspect it will affect hardware startup activity throughout europe if its not already doing it.And there I was thinking the US is over-regulated.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2013, 10:06:13 am
content: QuoteI couldn't agree more, especially that I live in EU and those stupid regulations make my life as a hobbyist much harder in many areas.-Cars are becoming more and more complicated. Stupid Emissions regulations force manufacturers to pack more and more electronics into cars which results in extreme failure rates. Engine compartments are stuffed with gazilions of sensors, exhaust recirculation systems, fancy injectors etc. And all electronic circuits fail after some time. It's not uncommon for new cars to be towed to service station with as little as 20k km on the odometer because some dumb sensor failer and car refuses to start....-economy is suffering greatly, because companies want to avoid enormous amounts of environmental regulations. If a company wants to run a business that can in theory emit any kind of substance to the environment (which would be almost every kind of business) they often have to setup special departaments who only deal with environmental stuff. Many companies are even selling their production sites and moving to far east - this is not the problem of labor costs, because it's rather cheap in eastern EU, but because of legal problems-more from the hobby viewpoint - dumpster-diving is problematic, and not nearly as rewarding as it was 10yrs ago. This is because everything has to be recycled with a certificate etc.-it's hard to get post production scrap from manufacturing companies, because they have to account for every kilogram of waste they produce-any equipment is MUCH more expensive in EU than it is in US and I think that large portion of that price difference comes from the fact, that manufacturers have to do very costly validation tests for the equipment to be allowed for sale in EU.-in eastern EU we don't earn that much (compared to western EU or US), yet all the taxes for fossil fuels are the same, which makes gasoline and diesel very expensive (for example i can buy roughly 3-4 liters of petrol for my hourly wage, a Norwegian is Swiss person can buy >10 liters). And that's only an example, that crap applies to almost every area.-for example in Germany many cities are divided into emission-areas (from the lask of a better word). If your car doesn't pass some level of emissions criteria (indicated by colorful sticker on a license plate) you cannot drive into some portions of the city. And that applies to all cars, so if you happen to own a 1990 Mercedes W124, which is completly ok despite having 1M km on the odometer, you cannot access most areas of the cities.-many substances are controlled, not because of them being drug precursors, but rather being unsafe for people/environment. Try to buy for example acethone, hydrochloric acid, nitric acid or any hydrogen peroxide stronger than pharmacy-grade 3%. Good luck with that. It's very hard unless you represent certified company which has a permit to deal with that kind of stuff. And in most cases such company won;t sell you half a liter of some chemical, because they have to account for every liter/kilogram purchased, used, recycled etc. Quite infuriating.People often laugh at americans being stupid and needing warning labels on everything (that coffee is hot, don't point that gun in your face, don;t swallow metal parts end the like), but with that aproach you can buy almost anything, which may be unsafe. In case you do something to youself or others - you have been warned.EU = fail.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2013, 12:06:09 pm
content: Also the tighter the regulation, the more incentive there is to circumvent them... China is particularly good at this.

author: eliocor
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2013, 12:52:17 pm
content: Once mastered the IEC/UL/... rules (I admit it takes time), when you will start a new project it will take less time in the development because you already know the traps/pitfalls you can encounter if you will not follow the requirements.Your product will be better and the risk of not passing the independent tests (made by certified laboratories) will be very low (or even nihil).It seems to me that those who are complaining are more hobbyist persons than professional developers and they do not understand the possible risks in selling riddled devices.BTW, in my previous work I developed UPSs: their rules are stricter than default electronics!

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2013, 03:38:20 pm
content: The reason i am complainig is the following :1) the grille inside the machine for me is stupid as the rules clearly state that, of opened by a tech you don't need one, but of it's a user then you need one. So what ? User are stupid ? Come on. Maybe we should make a law that requires a computer licence, like a drivers licence.... That'll keep a lot of idiots off the net. The number of botnets and other infected machines would tumble drastically.You will not hear me complain about the pull strength of the power cord. There's been a number of failures in the past years ( hp power bricks fro printers and laptops comes to mind ). Those cables get stepped on , tripped over and yanked out of the connectors. Demand they are kevlar reinforced for all i care.2) the fact that it as european rule , but, there are already a bunch of exception. Herese a few countries that won't apply it and there's a few countries that will apply even tighter rules. There is discord in europe. Everyone does his own thing. This makes it hard for someone to develop a product as you need to be aware of all these exception. Suppose you are a small company , 50 people , and you are going to build a product for the european market. Prepare to spend megabucks on a consultant that know all the crap , or spend the megabucks respinning the design after it fails cert, or spend megabucks buting all the standards and wasting weeks puzzling it all together and have to redo it every few months as there is always something new popping up....Those are my two gripes.O'm all for safety standard. But let's make ONE standard and universally apply it. Not this fragmented crap.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2013, 03:52:05 pm
content: QuoteYou need to rethink that. Those are Apple users. But seriously: i think the movitation behind all those regulations comes down to 'i have right to be stupid'. But again, internal fan-cover can also be removed. If it's made not-removable, then it will be hard to clean it. This leads to situation when you have to replace functional fan (with all the additional assembly) because it's dirty. But wait... you cannot do that on your own because you are stupid and obviously not supposed to service the computer on your own... And stupid people will find a way to hurt themselves anyway.I guess the best approach to deal with EU if you run a small business is to not give a shit about those regulations. As free_electron has pointed out laws are quite different across Europe despite EU's efforts to make them identical. This allows for some really creative ways to avoid regulations. And people are good at it. On top of that eastern EU, most of which has been a part (either officially or unofficially) of communist Soviet Union yet 24years ago, has a really long tradition of not giving a shit about regulations/standards/authorities and/or inventing really ingenious ways of exploiting various conflicting rules.

author: eliocor
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2013, 07:32:11 pm
content: Not so sure, but we had to follow the "standard" European rules (no exceptions, except for some RoHS niche products).The rules for the USA/Canadian market were less stricter than the European ones, so it was not so difficult to follow them (except for some stupid details like wire colors!); but to my knowledge USA market is starting to adopt the same European rules (with some little differences in the naming/numbering scheme).Never developed for the Eastern Europe: I have just taken a look to the Gost rules, but because of the need of a DIFFERENT certification for EVERY single eastern country we didn't confronted with those markets.At least an European certification (supported by an independent certification authority) is valid in almost every part of Europe and (as previously written) with very little effort even in the USA and Canadian market.If a device (UPSs in my case) is developed following the rules, the typical markets (EU, USA, Can) are open without too much fuss.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2013, 10:08:43 pm
content: Quote from: poorchava on February 06, 2013, 03:52:05 pmThe other way to do it is to register yourself outside the EU and then intentionally not seek EU distribution partners and sell only via internet sales. My understanding is that by not promoting sales in Europe the individual customer then assumes responsibility for compliance if purchased from abroad. Most Chinese online-only sellers operate this way when selling into the EU. Cargo ships/planes of non-compliant Chinese goods are entering the EU and US everyday using this trick. We are competing against that.Luckily in the US, regulations are incredibly difficult to get through Congress so things like ROHS and the no-lead requirements are not law. I actually don't think the US will ever formally go no-lead. The only reason we are doing it right now is to comply with EU regs. That same small product I mentioned above is actually being manufactured using a leaded process. It's completely legal to do so in the US. The biggest things to worry about for consumer products in the US are emissions (FCC), UL where you are using power (circumventable using a wall wart) and your business insurances/licenses. There are no CE, formal design file, ROHS. As I said.. where would you set up a business?. Its just a competitiveness question.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2013, 08:28:37 am
content: I think that setting up a business abroad involves much more effort than doin so in you own country. Especially if you are trying to get out of the EU. Various regulations apply, you need to pay people who know local laws in the other country, or even hire some people to handle stuff for you (that is if you don't really want to relocate). If you are aiming for China or far east in general you will quite likely need a local resident to be your "legal person" who has all the local numbers and documents (like social security number, tax id number and the like).Of course you could quite easily setup a business in some other EU country, which is relatively easy, but the goal here is to avoid EU.As for EU regulations being valid in US/CA most of the time, this is not necessarily the truth. I work in automotive segment company focused on heavy vehicles, so we have to assume, that such vehicle will travel all across the globe. Believe me, that the sets of regulations necessary when particular product is targeted at US/EU/China/Africa markets are very different. Of course there is a certain common denominator in all those regulations, but every marked has it's own rules. On the other hand some customers say want to have vehicles that comply with multiple markets' rules (sometimes those regulations are in conflict with each other).

author: eliocor
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2013, 12:36:15 pm
content: Quote from: poorchava on February 07, 2013, 08:28:37 amI never wrote that the norms are the same: I wrote thatif you follow the EU norms, in general it is very easy to have a product which is ALMOST ready for the USA/Canadian market.In general there are some modification to do (cable colors/plugs/...) but they should be done nonetheless.But thecertificationin general is very easy to be get (in general it require not more than 1 or 2 days of work in the independent certification laboratory).

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2013, 09:31:48 pm
content: Quote from: eliocor on February 07, 2013, 12:36:15 pmThis is not my experience: getting an UL certification for an existing, CE certified product resulted in a lot of troubles and costs. My customer, after discovering that he had to spend more than 10.000 euros for a lot of new tests and to have the product manufactured with a totally different internal wiring, decided to avoid selling to the USA...1 or 2 days seems really a short time: to me UL Italy quoted a really longer time, and the tests done for CE were of no use: they wanted everything redone, and by themselves, not by another certified lab.Best regards

author: cloudscapes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 02:38:34 am
content: A small DC fan? Seriously?You can get yourself cut more severely opening up some of those plastic theft-proof consumer electronics packages. Maybe they should up the standards on those as well.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 04:21:46 am
content: Quote from: poorchava on February 06, 2013, 10:06:13 amThis is as much ISO's fault as the EU.QuoteThis misrepresents the reasons for most of those being restricted (also HCl is not restricted at an EU level AFAIK). Most of those were (relatively recently) restricted because they are precursors for explosives. As for how burdensome the licensing and administration are, that's entirely up to individual nations.http://register.consilium.europa.eu/pdf/en/12/pe00/pe00048.en12.pdf

author: eliocor
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 11:25:54 am
content: Quote from: ciccio on February 07, 2013, 09:31:48 pmMaybe I was misunderstood: I was explaining that if you develop your product following ALL of the IEC norms and with the USA market in mind, the transformation of this product for the USA/Canadian market does not require too much work except for some "small" things like color of the wiring, different plugs, ...If your CE independent laboratory is also certified to make UL compliant tests, and they have already made the CE certification, the speedup in the tests (which must me made over again) is rather remarkable because they already know the procedures.I remember the first time we made a CE certification for an UPS: the laboratory took a lot of time because it was the first UPS device they tested and the rules for such devices are stricter than standard electronic devices (for some tests they are nearer to medical devices!!!). So I spent several days with them discussing (and learning!) on how make the tests.The next device under test took lesser time: for the following tests I even didn't bother to go their laboratories because the tests were only "routine".I have to admit that we made some internal prequalification tests so we were almost certain that our devices were already compliant!!Regarding the certification costs, you are right: unfortunately they are really expensive, but some of our customers REQUIRED some tests which was stricter than the norms!!!