Misuse of a slang term ("kluge") - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 01:58:24 am
content: Someone in another thread used the term "kludge" to refer to a messy arrangement of stuff soldered together.Sorry, but that's just wrong. The correct term is "kluge".I have to hand my copy ofThe New Hacker's Dictionary, which has an entry for "kluge". There's this note in that entry:QuoteI have my own theory about this term, that I've unfortunately not been able to prove. I worked in the printing industry for some years, and there is a manufacturer of printing equipment called Kluge. Some of their equipment was highly complex and hard to figure out just how it worked, which I believe gave rise to this term, perhaps among engineers in an industry other than computers sometime mid-20th century. So I think "kluge" came from "Kluge". Can't prove it, though.Here's an example of a real Kluge:https://www.boxcarpress.com/press/kluge-14x22/(I loves old printing equipment! Love the smell of ink and blanket wash ...)

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 02:02:30 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 06, 2024, 01:58:24 amOxford dictionary: kludge (also cludge or kluge)So, confidently wrong.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 02:05:52 am
content: OK. But in this case I'd take the word of the hacker's dictionary over the Oxford, as reliable as the latter usually is. I think they picked up the mutated form of the term.Can't prove it, though.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 02:09:11 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 06, 2024, 01:58:24 amI bought a paper copy too, back in the day. I remember laying my eyes on it a couple of months ago.Also have a couple of "Best of rec.humor.funny" books.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 02:50:45 am
content: Quotenot to be confused with cludgie

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 03:23:48 am
content: Rumour has it that Canadians spell things differently than Americans even though we are neighbours.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 03:32:14 am
content: Like they say: two peoples separated by a common language.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 03:34:06 am
content: Bodge.. then fudge.. then kludge.. and finally bludgeon... I think it fits better. I like how stiffly and clumsily my rally-English-speaking tongue moves when saying those words. (Yes,of courseI pronounce both the d and the g clearly: klud'gke. What'd be the point having them there if one doesn't? To find out how I butcher 'bicycle' and 'cheddar cheese', just ask Google Translate how 'bisaikol' and 'schkeddar-khe-ese' are pronounced in Finnish. I won't take responsibility if your ears start bleeding, though.)Considering that Datamation published an article'How to Design a Kludge'by Jackson W. Granholm in February 1962, I'd say Oxford English has precedence over The New Hacker's Dictionary on this.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 03:39:35 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 06, 2024, 03:34:06 amInteresting data point there, and considering the date, that'll count as a +1 for "kludge". But I'm still rooting for "kluge".

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 03:49:51 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on November 06, 2024, 02:50:45 amOr the popular operating system Kludgix.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 03:51:11 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 06, 2024, 03:39:35 amDas ist aber nicht Kluge.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 04:10:26 am
content: Depends on which side of the Atlantic you are on.In Britain, in the 1970's, it was kludge (rhyming with sludge). In the USA, it was kluge, rhyming with huge.I think, due to American influence on British English, it is often pronounced kluge these days in the UK. But it wasn't always that way.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 05:14:33 am
content: According the the official dictionary of Australia, the Macquarie dictionary, it's Kludge.footnoted with "from G Klug smart or witty"

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 05:29:07 am
content: I always knew it askludgeand this is from decades ago. But words and language evolve with usage over time so what can you do. I got used to calling peanut paste, peanut butter and can tolerate usage (by others) of ketchup. It's tomato sauce to me even though I suspect they are slightly different. And we got adrugstorerecently. Which I boycotted at no inconvenience to me because I have severalchemiststo choose from. But my mind exploded when I saw a children'scoloringbook in K-mart (Australia). I complained to the manager.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 05:34:42 am
content: Oh, you 'strines.So "ketchup" gets you a little, eh? Then how do you feel about "catsup"?I never could figure out why we have those 2 interchangeable words for what might oughta be called "tomato sauce".But then there's "tomato sauce", which isn't ketchup/catsup and goes on spaghetti and other pasta.So like you say, what can you do?

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 07:46:32 am
content: I'm not a native speaker, and coming from a very strictly ruled language (even if not as strict as i gather french is), and i have never heard of "kluge" in this context.If i came across that, i would assume a typo.I would also pronounce "kludge" and "kluge" very differently, but that might be my german leaking, as it tends to do for any english word that i don't know the pronounciation of.Addendum, regarding the post title:Can slang really be misused? Language changes, slang changes even faster. Meanings of slang words can shift radically and fast, but can that be called misuse?

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 08:44:31 am
content: Quote from: Ranayna on November 06, 2024, 07:46:32 amThe word seems to me to be an Anglophone thing; I'm guessing there are different words for the same thing over there in Yurp.QuoteYour pronunciation in this case would be correct.QuoteUm, maybe not, because what you wrote is correct; just pointing out that it's a deviation from the original coinage of the term (I think: again, can't prove it).I guess it bothers me in the same way, and to the same extent, as how people mangle other expressions, like saying "honein on" instead of the correct "homein on". After a while of lazy misusage like that the misused phrase becomes the accepted one. So I guess I can plead guilty to having a tight ass in this regard ...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 09:09:13 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 06, 2024, 01:58:24 amAh yes, the "USA==world" plus "It is what I have seen/heard, therefore I know" mentalities. (Usually associated with people that walk down shopping streets letting random women and children see their pants)Hint 1: neither of those are right, and "kludge" is correct.Hint 2: there's a wonderful thing called "internet dictionaries" that can rapidly help you learn. For examplehttps://duckduckgo.com/?q=define+kludge&t=ffntgiveshttps://www.wordnik.com/words/kludgehttps://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/kludgehttps://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kludgehttps://www.dictionary.com/browse/kludgehttps://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/kludgehttps://www.thefreedictionary.com/kludge

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 09:36:13 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 06, 2024, 05:34:42 amWell, if you really want to get picky it's tomato-flavoured sugar sauce, but they wouldn't sell a lot of it if they labelled it as such.In the same way that granola and similar product sales would probably drop if they were shelved in the category they fall under, "candy".

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 10:03:46 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 06, 2024, 09:09:13 amOK. They say:QuoteWhich rather seems to support my theory after all, since the earlier reference was to kluge, not kludge. (Of course it is just a theory ...)I don't think we'll ever know for sure.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 10:11:44 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 06, 2024, 03:34:06 amI remember you joking(?) something about pronunciation of bicycle on this forum some time... a year? two? three years? ... ago and remember chuckling into my beard for weeks afterwards to the point that my brain is now completely broken regarding this very word andI can't remember anymore how it should be correctly pronounced- if I check, I forget. I'm almost sure I used to say it correctly before your contribution

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 10:13:31 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 06, 2024, 05:34:42 amNo no no! Tomato sauce (and BBQ sauce) have the same kind of usage as Ketchup, primarily for putting on meat (or vegetables, if you are a kid), but are different. What you mix with pasta is pasta sauce, or bolognese (spag bog) sauce.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 10:21:18 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 06, 2024, 03:34:06 amhttp://neil.franklin.ch/Jokes_and_Fun/Kludge.htmlI don't know whether several typos are in the original, or added.

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 10:31:37 am
content: Will your next campaign be to convince people to remove the d from fridge?

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 10:33:16 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on November 06, 2024, 05:29:07 amButbutbut ... achemistis the guy with Coke-bottle glasses in the lab mixing up some stuff in a beaker that then explodes all over the place. Right?Sure, we havedrugstoresall over the place here, but you can't buy any 420 (nor cocaine nor heroin) at them ...

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 10:34:23 am
content: Quote from: DenzilPenberthy on November 06, 2024, 10:31:37 amFrige? Gawd, how would you even pronounce that? My mouth hurts just thinking about it.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 10:39:33 am
content: I would rather mess with "mess" instead

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 10:55:10 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 06, 2024, 10:03:46 amWell, that is one - and only one - source.With new editions published approximately every half-century, there's a better - and arguably definitive -sourceavailable at any decent reference library near you..."The dictionary's latest, complete print edition (second edition, 1989) was printed in 20 volumes, comprising291,500 entries in 21,730 pages. The longest entry in the OED2 was for the verbset, which required 60,000 words to describe some 580 senses(430 for the bare verb, the rest in phrasal verbs and idioms)"

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 11:47:38 am
content: Google Books suggests that the preferred spelling has changed over time. It does not make a fundamental difference if you restrict the text corpus to Brisith or American English, by the way.https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=kludge%2Ckluge&year_start=1920&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=false

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 12:24:38 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 06, 2024, 11:47:38 amInteresting tool

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 12:54:55 pm
content: I haven't used ngrams myself.But does that not just do a word search, without any context of the word?So there is no information on what these words actually mean.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 01:15:31 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on November 06, 2024, 12:54:55 pmThat's true; the only "context" you can get is to search for what they call n-grams, i.e. multiple words stringed together. E.g. you can search for "julius caesar, napoleon bonaparte" to compare the frequency of occurence of those two word pairs.In the present case, this should not be a limitation. Nobody has argued that "kluge" or "kludge" are predominantly used with other meanings -- in fact, we have been grasping at straws regarding the potential origin of the term.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 02:52:30 pm
content: Quote from: DenzilPenberthy on November 06, 2024, 10:31:37 amEspecially as it is missing from 'refrigerator'.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 08:33:24 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on November 06, 2024, 10:11:44 amLanguage evolves, because it is a tool for interaction –– and also atoyto play with, for deeper understanding of how words and concepts are used and how they connect/relate to other words and concepts, and what kind of thoughts they can evoke in others.Finnish language is particularly amenable to playing with. For example, considerjalkine(footwear). Why not usejälkine(trackmaker) for a while instead?Even my pseudonym is one of these: utterly true in more than one sense, but also a self-deprecating joke I am fond of, to curb any delusions of grandeur or importance when I consider its various interpretations/meanings.If it matters any, I do know how to pronounce Worcestershire, Massachusetts, and miscellaneous. Pronunciation is the hardest, due to lack of practice.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 08:52:08 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 06, 2024, 08:33:24 pmHow about Leicester and Cirencester, or Congesbury and Almondsbury, or Alnwick.And then there are some infamous family names like Featherstonehaugh and Cholmondley.If you manage those, then have a go athttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/perverse-language/msg607129/#msg607129

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 08:58:20 pm
content: It becomes relatively obvious from this thread that the proper way of spelling and pronouncing words is always our own.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 09:14:23 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on November 06, 2024, 10:11:44 amJust in case it helps:

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 10:24:16 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 06, 2024, 05:34:42 amKetchup has added sugar and vinegar, tomato sauce traditionally does not, are you serious or just trolling at this point?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 10:50:33 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 06, 2024, 08:52:08 pmThe first one I pronounce as "Lester", but I don't think I have heard the others, so I definitely don't know those.When I was young, I tried to pronounce words like they do on TV, American style –– we don't dub, we use subtitles ––, but it makes my pronunciation muddled and words like "can" and "can't", and "Da-an", "dawn", "darn" difficult to tell apart for the listener. When I switched to Rally English, proudly pronouncing my R's, and everything with an easily identifiable Finnish accent instead of trying to copy an American one, my spoken English became much easier to understand. Funnier, less stylish, much less "urban", but I prefer the understandability over taste/style anyway.The last two lines of the first stanza in William Blake'sThe Tygergives me pause:What immortal hand or eye,Could frame thy fearful symmetry?What the hell is that last vowel? Is it the same one as in 'eye', or the same one as in 'in'?I think it has the same issues as 'kludge' vs. 'kluge', so the answer depends on the context and timeline you care about, if any; and personal preferences otherwise.(Also tells a lot about me, whenthatis the thing in that wonderful poem that gives me pause.)

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 10:56:14 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 06, 2024, 10:24:16 pmThat's doubleplusgood tomato sauce. There are just too many words!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 11:11:54 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 06, 2024, 10:50:33 pmThe inhabitants pronounce them Siss-i-ter, Coon-es-bry, Alms-bry, Ann-ick. People a few tens of miles away get it wrongQuoteYeah. Excruciating! It really fails badly, the equivalent of nails screeching down a blackboard is a "distraction"!

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 11:31:56 pm
content: Quotedont leave out towcester and just so the welsh dont feel left out hows about Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 12:26:27 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on November 06, 2024, 11:31:56 pmOh, there are many, many such examples.Apparently "LlanfairPG" is the way you pronounce that descriptionOverall the celtic languages are... just different. Welsh is not far off a "dimly remembered and reinvented" language that has too few vowels, and the consonants bear little relationship to the romance/teutonic languages. "ysgol" is, if you pronounce it, something like "ye school".

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 12:40:50 am
content: Here's one for you: Is the letter H pronounced as "Haitch" or "Aitch"?This one causes some rather heated discussion in my friend circles.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 12:43:20 am
content: Neither, of course; haven't you seenMy Fair Lady?"Just you wait, 'enry 'iggins, just you wait!'

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 12:47:04 am
content: QuoteHuh?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 01:23:57 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 06, 2024, 10:50:33 pmIt may be interesting to note that in some American accents, "can" and "can't" sound the same, and you have to tell the difference from the context. With a British accent, this is not the case.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 02:40:59 am
content: Quote from: IanB Today at 11:23:57Extends to US "I could care less", when they mean the opposite.MODERATOR NOTE: Sorry, for some reason the "Quote" and "Modify" buttons look very similar to me (and are right next to each other), so I accidentally modified your original post instead of quoting. There is no "undo" button either. My apologies. (Halcyon)Edit: uhh .. I tried to repair it a bit.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 02:43:07 am
content: Don’t make me no nevermind…

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 08:34:36 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on November 07, 2024, 02:40:59 amWhat I meant to say, before I completely butchered brucehoult's post, was that I've never understood this.Over here it's "I couldn't care less" essentially meaning "no fucks given".

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 09:01:16 am
content: Always fun: the way (some? all?) Americans pronounce "solder".Over here if someone said "sod her" in a room with females, there would consequencesEvidence: the otherwise superb series demonstrating how to solder electronic equipment. They are a succinct demonstration of how to use video well, and hence why modern yootoob vids are mostly a waste of time.https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL926EC0F1F93C1837&cbrd=1

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 09:14:11 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 07, 2024, 09:01:16 amClick on the pronunciation link!https://www.dictionary.com/browse/solderAnd fwiw, it's also misspelled on one of the better wicking products I've used over the yearshttps://www.chemtronics.com/content/images/thumbs/0001685_soder-wick-rosin-sw18045.jpeg

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 10:52:20 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 07, 2024, 09:01:16 amYou'd be out the back door before you could put your trou on!

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 11:59:58 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 07, 2024, 12:40:50 amMore than just heated discussion. I know someone from Northern Ireland where, when they were growing up during the Troubles, this was used as a shibboleth to determine whether you were Catholic or Protestant. And hence whether you would be beaten up for being in the wrong street/neighbourhood.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 12:55:38 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 07, 2024, 12:40:50 am@3:50

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 01:45:39 pm
content: Quote from: DenzilPenberthy on November 07, 2024, 11:59:58 amAnother use for the word "shibboleth" was a plot point in an episode of The West Wing. Sigh, that was so long ago

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 03:32:30 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 07, 2024, 08:34:36 amI have always supposed that "I could care less" is a colloquial shortening of "As if I could care less?"

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 03:51:29 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 07, 2024, 03:32:30 pmEven shorter: "I'm a merkin"

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 06:22:50 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 07, 2024, 03:32:30 pmDoubt it; it's a careless unthinking statement, where the speaker has no clue as to the actual meaning of their words. Very widespread use nowadays.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 06:25:50 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 07, 2024, 11:43:45 amNo, I think it's a bit more than that: on top of the mispledding is the mispronunciation, so it's a whole twisting of meaning (whatever the original meaning or derivation was, which is still a mystery wrapped in an enigma shrouded in the mists of time ...).

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 07:52:13 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 06, 2024, 09:09:13 amWTF do you expect from a nation who collectively doesn’t know where their fanny is?Quote from: tggzzz on November 07, 2024, 12:26:27 amIt's pronounced clan-vie-porth-win-geth-go-gereth-win-drobo-clan-clan-tis-silly-o-go-go-goth: the locals call it Llanfair PG as a contraction when they don't want to fuck with visitors heads.(Mother is Welsh, and from Anglesea).Topic...I've never heard anyone in the UK say "kluge" in the 27years living here ... it has always been pronounced kludge.So Americans say 'sod her' but are too puritanical to say 'tit bit'.Another is 'I can't be arsed'. (Not to be confused with 'I can't be asked').(First language Das Deutsch).X

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 12:07:55 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 07, 2024, 09:01:16 amExcept that it usually ends up sounding more like sarder than sodder, which will be a mystery to most people.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 12:09:42 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 07, 2024, 12:40:50 amMitchell and Webb clip coming up in 3... 2...

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 12:18:36 pm
content: So no-one in the remaining messages linked to it, in which case:.Incidentally, I fully agree with David Mitchell's response here.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 01:33:19 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 07, 2024, 01:23:57 amAn interesting video on weak forms, including (at the linked timestamp) can/can't:

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 11:01:07 pm
content: Meh. Watched part of that; not impressed.So there are "weak" forms of words in English; so what?I didn't see a single example there where it wasn't clear what the speaker meant because "weak" words were elided or missing.There is this thing called "context", y'know.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 02:40:13 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 08, 2024, 11:01:07 pmMisunderstandings can be funny, that's what.More importantly, when communicating with someone, do not assume they know what you mean; be specific, and keep one eye on how the others understood your words. When an error occurs, fix it and continue; no need to dwell or go astray. Similarly, if someone else makes an error, ask them to fix or restate for clarity, then continue onwards.(I do not mean you did anything wrong by starting this thread, though. I find this thread interesting and informative wrt. technical discussions and the possible pitfalls, considering the wide variety of members participating. Once again, I refer towhy I think writing style and grammar matters in posts.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 04:57:43 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 07, 2024, 01:23:57 amThe sound of the “a” vowel in “can” and “can’t” is the same in most dialects of American English. The difference in meaning is given by the presence or absence of the “t” at the end. The words as a whole definitely do not sound the same!Quote from: brucehoult on November 07, 2024, 02:40:59 amI hate that one, since it’s so patently illogical. Whenever someone says that to me, unless I’m in an exceptionally charitable mood, I’ll respond with “So youdocare after all, even if just a little?!?”But it’s not an extension of “can/can’t” since those words havenotmerged.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 05:00:27 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 07, 2024, 09:01:16 amIt honestly gets tiring, especially since all of the assumptions aboutwhyAmericans don’t pronounce the L are wrong. And those arguments are always trotted out with a grotesque amount of undeserved condescension and arrogance.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 05:22:59 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 09, 2024, 05:00:27 pmIt never crossed my mind that there might be areasonfor the pronunciation! Whatisthe reason?I've never come across any "grotesque amount of undeserved condescension and arrogance", merely amusement. Maybe I live in a more accepting community.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 06:57:01 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 09, 2024, 05:22:59 pmPerhaps the dictionary can be of some help here. From one of mine (American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language):QuoteYou'll notice that not all of those antecedents have an "l" in them.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 09:13:40 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 09, 2024, 05:00:27 pmIt's all about tolerance, we all know the variations of pronunciation, what it refers to. It doesn't hurt to accept that the difference exists, though I work with two lovely US nationals (from the MA) niether of whom drop the 'l' from solder.I will have to ask them about their pronunciation, and if it's just a case of blending in with the local custom.Unfortunately the amusement can't be enjoyed by those in some mindsets because they have to beright¹, and literally enjoy being indignant when others disagree with their POV.English born people find the way that I pronounce 'Braun',funny²for instance, (Brown).On the other side of that I recently heard an American visitor arguing with the resident of a local town about the pronunciation of the towns name: the town in question is Wisbech, which is pronounced locally as Wiz-beech, but our west pond friend insisted it should be pronounced Wiz-bek, and became most agitated when they were told that it was wrong.What I find cloying are people who make sweeping statements based on their preconceptions about other peoples culture or lifestyle, they tend to be the same people who have to be alwaysright¹, and deserve to be trolled.(People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?)Note:¹Right, as in 'correct'.²Funny, as in 'peculiar'.XEdited for spelling. (Personally I don't give the furry crack of a rats arse, but some people do...)

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 09:53:03 pm
content: "prenunciation"? Is that what you do before pronunciation?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 09:53:24 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on November 09, 2024, 09:13:40 pmIenjoythe differences, and find the variety amusing and endearing.It only came about when I stopped "trying to be perfect" and accepted my own limits in English pronunciation, and accepted Finnish Rally English (or should I say Finnish Hydraulic Press English nowadays?). Which really, is nothing to be ashamed about (even though Finns think it makes them sound uneducated): it's what a natural Finnish accent in English sounds like, and I've been told is actually very understandable (as accents go) – but also very funny (in both senses). The two are not mutually exclusive.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 10:06:57 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 09, 2024, 09:53:03 pmTypo, however you have made my point for me, you areright¹Best regards,X

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 10:07:32 pm
content: Speaking of languages, I'm always impressed by how your language (Finnish) is so much of an outlier of others. Not Indo-European; not Romance. It's Finno-Ugric! Meaning yours comes from the same source as Hungarian. (And I believe that that source is still pretty much unknown and obscured by the mists of time.)

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 10:09:22 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on November 09, 2024, 10:06:57 pmI would've thought typo too but you spelled it that way several times.Hey; at least I didn't get called a spelling Nazi!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 10:22:35 pm
content: Just to be a little bit controversial, I assert there is no L sound in solder in British pronunciation either. The difference between British and American is the vowel sound.In British English, solder rhymes with colder, holder, and older, none of which have an actual L sound. Cold has a vowel that I don' t know how to write, it is a diphthong something like ah-ow, thus cold sounds a bit like c-ah-ow-d. Solder is like s-ah-ow-d'h, with a schwa on the end (non-rhotic), compared with the American sodd'r, with the "R" typically there at the end.This is similar to how there is no sounded L in words like salmon (sammon), or calm (cahm). (Although there is a modern tendency to introduce an L sound into salmon where there was none before, and pronunciation is shifting.)It's interesting that people often seem to think there is an L in words like "cold" because they picture it in their mind, and may consciously introduce an L if you make them say the word deliberately, but if you were to record them saying a word like old without any prompting of the question, and then look where their tongue goes with an X-ray machine, you would generally find the tongue does not actually move into the L position in the mouth, it just goes straight to D.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 10:54:22 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 09, 2024, 09:53:24 pmHow can you be perfect, English is a very sloppy language.Your writen English is more advanced than Finnish Rally English in the humble opinion of a German first language speaker. And I don't understand how the Finnish accent sounds uneducated?Perhaps it's some kind of self perception?I am presently with an English born friend and in asking of what his opinion was of the Finnish accent, he said that English spoken with the precise clipped Finnish accent he considered it to be quite easy to understand.He also explained the reference to 'Rally English' as possibly being from the days of Rauno Aaltonen and Timo Makinen, being teamed with English navigators when they drove Rally cars for BMC in the 1960s.He said that the first phrase that Makinen always tried on his co-pilots was 'how old is your daughter?"X

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 11:04:16 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 09, 2024, 05:00:27 pmI've heard that the American way didn't change over time as much so if you go back you may find what is "wrong" now wasn't at one time. And yes, it does get tiring. At some point you have to stop trying to hold back the tide. Living languages evolve and that much won't change.I just wish the Americans would make a push to get the Metric system over the line. Listening to them trying to calculate measurements is painful. Granted, it is probably easier if you're used to it but it still seems more prone to error.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 11:13:04 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on November 09, 2024, 11:04:16 pmHonestly, why should we? Just because "the rest of the world" uses SI units? I'm serious.But regarding that last, no, using feet and inches and Fahrenheit and quarts and gallons is no more error-prone than your system.Of course, converting from one system to the other is where errors might occur, but I think we've learned from that space disaster involving inches vs. mm (forget exactly what "mission" that was). Most of us, at least ...

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 11:14:07 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 09, 2024, 10:09:22 pmHey you're right¹ (again!) (Prenunciation) *pronunciation* seems to be autocorrected thus.Don't recall often using the word for it to learn it as a misspelling.As a native German speaker I would consider it offensive to accuse anyone I didn't know of being a Nazi for pointing out a possible failure of grammar or spelling, it's happened before.Just enjoy the smug!X

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 11:41:38 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 09, 2024, 10:22:35 pmIn one part of England there can be averypronounced "l"in "idea", to the extent that it sounds like "ideal". That's possibly part of the reason the old name of "Brigstowe" has mutated into the current name.The concept that everybody in England pronounces all words the same can only be entertained by a foreigner. Received pronunciation started (rapidly) dying in the 60s. my father tells the story of wondering why a technician was repeatedly telling my father that he had an ideal.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 11:50:22 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 09, 2024, 10:22:35 pmWait, what?Now I ain't no linguist (cunning or not), but my intuition tells me that "cold" without "l" (meaning an "l"soundalong with the letter) is "code", no? "I have a code in my node."

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 12:09:06 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on November 09, 2024, 10:54:22 pmExactly:Many Finnsbelieve the precise clipped Finnish accent –– which is called Rally English here, regardless of the syntax, grammar, and vocabulary of the speaker –– sounds "uneducated", a native English "highly educated", and a vaguely North American accent "educated".Finns typically worry a lot about how foreigners perceive them; the more the public influence or political power you have, for some reason.Quote from: Xena E on November 09, 2024, 10:54:22 pmYup; plus Timo Salonen, Ari Vatanen, Marcus Grönholm, plus others, plus Finnish F1 drivers with the same accent, like Mika Salo and Mika Häkkinen.Many Finnish motosports professionals started young (way before they could legally drive), and usually concentrated on their driving instead of formal education. In schools, English teachers strive for a British or vaguely North American accent, so I guess the perception/attitude just stuck.I recall seeing a video of middle school aged Finnish kids interviewing each other a few years ago, in a news clip about youth internship week or something. When asked what is the biggest turn-off in a boy, one girl answered "Rally English" and another (nearby, of course) "bad English accent". I found it hilarious, of course, and very typical of Finns.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 12:16:01 am
content: Pranker: How do you pronounce why e es?Target: uh ... yes?Pranker: Correct! How about e why e es?Target: uh ... e-yes? ejes?Pranker: Uh, no. It's 'eyes'.If you try this, it is surprising how many even native speakers fall for it. Anyone can make an error, no matter their skill or knowledge, because human is to err now and then. Or "to err is human", if you want to be dull about it.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 12:22:19 am
content: Reminds me of my dad pranking me many decades ago. (Total dad joke).Dad: How do you pronounce M-A-C-D-O-N-A-L-D?Me: MacdonaldDad: How do you pronounce M-A-C-H-E-N-R-Y?Me: MacHenryDad: How do you pronounce M-A-C-H-I-N-E-R-Y?Me: MacHinery?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 01:24:35 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 09, 2024, 11:41:38 pmThat's kind of an intrusive L though, where there was no L before. And I admit that the West Country accent is a rather cute one.QuoteI speak Standard Southern British, with a tendency towards modern RP (modern RP is alive and kicking). You could probably compare my accent to John who does Auto Shenangans on YouTube. That said, I am not aware of salmon or calm having any great difference in the presence of an L sound in different regions.For another example of the absent L, listen to the first 20 seconds of Hannah Ricketts here. Listen to how she says "walk" in "I am going to take you on an interesting walk". Basically, it's "wark" with no r.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 01:32:31 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 09, 2024, 11:50:22 pmNo, it doesn't quite work that way, because British vowel sounds are often different from American vowel sounds. In British English, "cold" with a silent L is quite different from "code". Code is loosely approximated with "c-oh-d", whereas cold is loosely approximated with "c-ah-ow-d". You can't really represent the sounds in text, even using the phonetic alphabet. You would have to listen to the words spoken. For example, as here:https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/coldhttps://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/codeNotice in particular the contrast between the American and British pronunciations.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 03:12:15 am
content: Minute and minute shouldn't be spelled the same as I'm not content with this content, I object to that object and I think I need to read what I read again.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 12:06:52 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 10, 2024, 01:32:31 amIthinkI am beginning to home in on this now. The perception is that the common p-r-o-n-u-n-c-i-a-t-i-o-n of British English is that heard in common conversation in North London.I've heard it called cockaneese in reference to 'Cockney'. I find it very difficult to follow, even without the rhyming slang.(Cockney is a very specific area reference to the parish of Bow in London)As for the silent L thing, I just can't fathom the reason for the insistence. It's not something I've noted generally.It's a little like insisting that people in the Netherlands all wear clogs and ride bicycles, (for your information: not a recommended combination), or that all Germans wear Dirndl and Lederhosen and only eat sauerbraten.Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 10, 2024, 12:09:06 amYes I get that, I just wondered why? IME and the general perception is that Finns are practical no nonsense people's. A collective external locus of self identity seems like the very definition of nonsense. I don't like to generalise if I can help it so there must be an underlying reason: it can't be just the perception of sportspeople being non academic, that's got to apply to everyone or no one in the world of sport speaking a non native language?As for trying to teach an accent, I was told when starting at an English school, (aged 10), not to be concerned with that, but just concentrate on p-r-o-n-u-n-c-i-a-t-i-o-n.Even now I speak with a slightly skewed German accent.Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 10, 2024, 12:09:06 amThanks, and thanks for adding the ääkköset to the quote!Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 10, 2024, 12:09:06 amIf you meet anyone with that attitude then tell them that at least they can speak English, there's little chance of often hearing the Finnish language being spoken with an English accent, I don't know many English that speak other languages even at conversational level.My Norfolk friend does speak passable German, and French.A French friend says he sounds 'sexy'... he speaks German with a kind of Danish accent, why I don't know 😵‍💫, (his attempts at Welsh are hilarious).X

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 12:32:27 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 10, 2024, 12:22:19 amNow try repeating "Martin, Barton, and Fargo" several times as quickly as possible.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 01:16:57 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 09, 2024, 05:22:59 pmThe L in solder was added during there-latinization fadof the 16th century. American English updated the spelling but retained the old pronunciation; British English changed pronunciation as well. Or to be more precise, forgot the original pronunciation and started pronouncing the spelling. (Unlike, say, the “b” in “debt”, which was added at the same time, but whose pronunciation remained unchanged.)So when the British accuse Americans of being “lazy” or “illiterate” for not pronouncing the L (and cry “English never uses silent L!!” Yes, really, they say this!), they’re simply wrong. There’s no pronunciation pattern in standard American English that would produce that silent L. There are many British dialects (and a few American ones) where the L becomes more like a “w” sound (like in the word “cold”). This is known asL-vocalizationin linguistics, and in British English, a whole swath of words underwent it, centuries after American English split off, so it’s less widespread in USA. (And as an aside to that aside, some dialects of Swiss German have the exact same L-vocalization!) American English also has a significant influence from later Irish immigration, which is why standard American English and some speakers from Ireland (particularly Dublin, which has several distinct dialects) haveextremelysimilar pronunciation.Quote from: tggzzz on November 09, 2024, 05:22:59 pmOh, many, many British find glee in accusing Americans of being “ignorant”, “uneducated”, and “lazy” when it comes to language, and make it abundantly clear that they (the British) do not appreciate “their” language being “bastardized” or “butchered” by Americans.Now, many Americansareignorant and uneducated, in their language and otherwise. But not all of us are, and “laziness” isnotthe driver behind language change.British English today has no greater a claim to being the definitive version of English than does American English: our common ancestor dialect is over 400 years old, andbothdialects have evolved in that time. However, when it comes to “authenticity” in the sense of “remaining closer to our common ancestor dialect of 400 years ago”, where there are differences, it is actually usually American English that has stayed closer to the original form. Both dialects evolved away from our common ancestor, but British English evolved awaymore.A common trope is to claim Americans are bastardizing English for words like “ain’t”, “aks” (ask), and “soccer” —allwords that originated in England!They then get mad at you and accuse you of lying if you point out that the factual basis for their claims is incorrect. Even if you provide them scholarly sources — like the textbooks of David Crystal, a linguist who is one of the preeminent scholars of the history of English, who is himself British, and many of whose books are published by Cambridge University Press — they categorically reject any evidence that their perceived notions could be wrong.Another hugely irritating aspect is that the British often comparecolloquialAmerican English tovery formalBritish English, and make the accusations of laziness, etc. based on that. If they applied the same standards to the countless non-RP dialects in common use in the UK, they’d have to make the same accusations of laziness, etc. but they don’t. “Ain’t” is common in colloquial dialects of English around the world, and “aks” is at least as common in the UK as in USA, if not more!Which brings me to related false complaint: the British finding a usage that is either colloquial (or outright wrong) in American English — a usage that is unequivocally wrong in formal American English — that is considered wrong in British English and declaring it to just be an Americanism. They ignore the fact that it’s wrong in standard American English, too, and that in many cases the same “American” misuse is found in British dialects, too, as explained above.Other times they get their knickers in a twist simply because American English does things differently, where neither dialect is objectively better than the other. Like… who cares if it’s “color” or “colour”?The British frequently make fun of Americans not knowing the proper pronunciation of UK (and other foreign) placenames. (And yes, most Americans actuallydoknow how to pronounce Worcestershire.) This, despite the fact that a) placenames are notorious for having non-obvious pronunciations, so unless you have been told what it is, you have no way of knowing, and b) the British are no better at pronouncing foreign placenames, and in many cases are worse. (LA’s name is not pronounced “los angeleeze” like so many British say, and Maryland isnotpronounced “mary-land”. And let’s not even get started on how so many British absolutely massacre the names of places in Spain…) Thanks to both the Spanish-origin placenames in USA, but also the large numbers of Latin Americans in USA, Americans have gottenwaybetter at pronouncing Spanish words and names over the years. When I was a kid, in the 80s, Americans did not know how to pronounce my name, which is Spanish. Here in Europe, most people outside of Spain still have no clue. But in USA these days, people now get it right nearly 100% of the time! And outside of comedy skits poking fun at sheltered Midwesterners, Americans stopped pronouncing “tacos” as “tack-ohs” decades ago.)I find it curious that many British, like you, claim to be unaware of how the British rag on Americans about language, because it’s so very common, both online and in real life. I wonder to what extent it’s actually true — i.e. they’ve never done it or witnessed it — and to what extent theyhavedone it or witnessed it, but didn’t “register” it as harassment because they either agree with it, or dismiss it as just being in good fun, when in fact it’s rarely intended in good will.I wish it were always just meant in good fun, as banter. I really do. But it very often is meant with heartfelt disdain.P.S. Every single one of the examples above of accusations, descriptions, etc. by the British about Americans and our English, and the words they choose to get upset about, are real-world examples from actual discussions I’ve been involved in with British people.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 02:04:13 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on November 09, 2024, 09:13:40 pmOof, that’s embarrassing.I mean, the US isfullof placenames with non-obvious pronunciations, including many where it varies depending onwhich one of severalyou’re referring to, which each have local pronunciations. (In all my pronunciations below, the schwa sound  is simplified to “u” for the ease of typing on my iPad.)For example, the Thames in London, England is famously pronounced “temz”, but Thames Street in Baltimore rhymes with “James”.Or how Birmingham, England is pronounced “BIRMING-gum” locally, but the one in Alabama is pronounced “birming-HAM”.Or how the places named “Bowie” in Maryland, Texas, and Arizona are pronounced “BOO-ee”, but the one in Colorado is pronounced “BOH-ee” (like the “bow” you tie on a gift), and that the last name “Bowie” may be pronounced as either of those two, or as “BOW-ee” (“bow” like what actors take at the end of a play). When I lived in Maryland, it was a dead giveaway that someone wasn’t a local when they’d pronounced the city like David Bowie.Or how the state of Arkansas is pronounced “AR-kun-saw”, but in Arkansas City and the Arkansas River it’s pronounced “ar-KAN-zuss”.As a kid, I went to elementary school in Bahama, NC, pronounced “buh-HAY-muh”. The school occasionally received mail stamped “RETURN TO MAINLAND, NOT FOR THE BAHAMAS” (“buh-HAH-muz”).Or how Houston, TX (“HEW-stun”) is pronounced differently from all other Houstons, which are “HOW-stun”.Or how Miami, Oklahoma (“my-AM-uh”) is not spoken the same as Miami, Florida. (Though some old Southerners also use the Oklahoma pronunciation for the Florida city!)And then there are all the Native American-based placenames that are “obvious” in the sense that the spelling basically matches the sounds, but gives you no clue about where the syllable emphasis goes, like Manitowoc, Kissimmee, Potomac, Okefenokee, Youghiogheny, and countless others.Given that all of these are things non-local Americans would get wrongwithin their own country, it’s ridiculous for them to think they know better than locals in another country!!🤦

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 02:12:38 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 09, 2024, 10:22:35 pmThis is the L-vocalization I link to a few replies ago.L and R are some of the weirder sounds, in that while we normally consider them consonants, in linguistics they’re considered an “approximant”, “semivowel”, or “glide”, in that they have vowel-like qualities that other consonants don’t have.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 02:50:24 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on November 09, 2024, 11:04:16 pmCorrect, American English tends to preserve historical forms more often than British English. As I said in another reply, both dialects evolved away from our common ancestor, but British English evolved farther away from it.I’m not sure whether you’re arguing for or against the American pronunciation of “solder”. Americans don’t pronounce it that way to honor historical English. It’s just the way we pronounce it and we don’t care why. But when the British claim we are bastardizing the “correct” pronunciation (i.e. laying a claim to an original, traditional pronunciation, and claiming Americans strayed from it while the British stayed true), they are objectively incorrect.Are you arguing that Americans are resisting change, or that the British are?Quote from: wilfred on November 09, 2024, 11:04:16 pmThis has been discussed ad infinitum, so here’s the Cliff’s Notes:1. The US already has adopted metric to a significant degree, and this is nothing new. The sciences, medicine, automaking, etc. all completely or mostly adopted metric decades ago. Many more areas have been transitioning little by little for a long time.2. Changing systems is not without risk. The transition itself can cause many of the hazards that moving to metric is intended to forestall. So changing just for the sake of changing is not a sound argument.3. Part of the reason Europe and Asia switched to metric is because their industrial base either had to be rebuilt following the world wars, or they first industrialized after the wars. American industry was never devastated by the world wars, so there was no need to rebuild, so we kept making things the way we had been and transitioned little by little when and where the need arose.If US industry had been destroyed in the wars, we probably would have rebuilt with metric, too. And if Europe’s industry had been spared in the wars, it likely would have transitioned to metric far more gradually.4. Another reason Europe embraced metric is because of the huge variety of local, country-specific units in use, which made trade increasingly difficult as improved transportation and industrialization progressed. The need to unify to a common set of units was much more acute than in USA, where there wasn’t as much variety of units.5. All the supposedly all-metric countriesaren’t. Remnants of non-metric units remain all over the place. Sometimes these remnants are hidden (like how the ubiquitous 2.54mm connector pitch is actually 0.1”) or overt (like using feet for altitude in aviation).6. The North American market is so large that even in factories outside of North America, entire production lines and possibly entire factories are dedicated to products for that market. So it simply doesn’t matter what units are being used since it’s not product common to the rest of the world. For example, what would be gained by changing the screws that hold on the wall plates on North American electrical switches and outlets from 6-32 UNC to metric? Only North America uses that style of wall plate, so the rest of the world has no interest in a metric version. And metric versions in North America would only create a problem of having two types of incompatible screws and switches/outlets side by side.7. The complexities in calculation with non-metric units aren’tonlya curse, as metric proponents often portray them to be. When calculating with metric, it’s very common to be doing nothing other than scooting a decimal point around, and it is damned easy to lose track of it. With non-metric units, where every step completely changes the mantissa, it can be easier to spot if some step got missed.8. Some non-metric units have their advantages. The one that really comes to mind is degrees Fahrenheit, because in the temperature range of interest for a whole lot of everyday applications, two digits of Fahrenheit degrees gets you a lot more resolution than two digits of Celsius. The entire range of outdoor temperatures for much of the world fit comfortably in the range from 0-99°F, and the Fahrenheit degrees gives you a pretty good granularity for the purposes of climate control and measuring human body temperature. That same range of temperature in Celsius requires going into the negatives, and a whole degree C is sometimes a bit coarse, necessitating the use of a decimal point. (Celsius divides the range between the freezing and boiling points of water into 100 degrees, Fahrenheit into 180 degrees, affording nearly double the granularity per degree.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 02:52:51 pm
content: Quote from: Kim Christensen on November 10, 2024, 03:12:15 amTry readingThe Chaosaloud sometime without error. :p

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 02:57:03 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 09, 2024, 11:41:38 pmAnd yet the British themselves only ever consider RP (or other “school” English) when dumping on American English, completely ignoring the smorgasbord of dialects actually spoken on the British Isles.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 04:30:43 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on November 10, 2024, 12:06:52 pmIt's not really Cockney. Even refined speakers will have a similar pronunciation (listen to the dictionary examples I linked above).Very broadly, pronunciation in England separates into southern and northern accents, and the main difference is in the vowel sounds. The standard southern accent is very often used as a reference for language learners. If you listen to Hannah Ricketts in the video I linked to, her diction is very typical of young people in southern England today.If you are not a native speaker, then navigating the minefield of English accents is no different than navigating the German accents in the German speaking regions of Europe. You just have to pick one as a standard, and stick to it. For that purpose, standard southern British will do you fine if that is where you live.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 06:18:18 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on November 10, 2024, 12:06:52 pmPhew; so glad you didn't write "honein on", which I hear and read all the damn time and which is just wrong, wrong, wrong!

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 06:33:37 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 10, 2024, 02:04:13 pmYou know that, and I know that, (a lazy person would cite Arkansas), it's not the fact that there are all these delightful relics from what was ostensibly only a spoken language, it's when there is a crusader that comes along and wants to change something because it doesn't conform to what they hold as fact that the arguments start.Personally I say you're all wrong and the material known as solder is in fact called Lötmittel.😁I do come down on the side of American spelling and pronunciation of some words, I believe for instance Aluminum was the originator not Aluminium.As I put in another post, people who live in glass houses should not throw rocks.Quote from: IanB on November 10, 2024, 04:30:43 pmUnfortunately the 'very broadly' statement is the devil here, it's not the accents that are the problem, it's sloppy pronunciation and colloquialisms, they vary alot across this small country.For instance if someone said, 'tens a likely' in answer to a request from you, would you know what that means? (Answers on a post card...), I didn't at first. British English is full of that kind of thing, and so is American English.I'm not a native but I've lived here for 27 years and could speak English reasonably when I arrived, (I've lived in and around Wales and now Cambridgeshire). I had to achieve a GCSE 'A' level in English language for entry to my chosen university course, which I did, it's just that some of the examples you gave I either don't understand or we have moved in very different circles!Perhaps Cambridgeshire is one of the better behaved language wise.This silent L matter for instance that has been toted here and in other threads, I just haven't come across, and I find that it's also touted by Google as well! If I heard someone say 'wark' instead of walk, 'tork' instead of 'talk', 'yoke' instead of 'yolk' I'd think they had perhaps been at the schnapps.... if they said that they felt c-ah-ow-d, (for: cold), I'd think they were suffering a stroke.Quote from: Analog Kid on November 10, 2024, 06:18:18 pmLuckily I changed it back! This POS phone text compiler actually changed it to hone!X

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 06:43:37 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on November 10, 2024, 06:33:37 pmAckshooly, those are exactly the same in Am. English in my experience. The "l" really is silent here. Same with "folk"*, but "Polk" and "poke" are distinct from each other.*Usually, but sometimes there's a hint of "l" there.Disclaimer: I have not tramped across rural Pennsylvania or Missouri with a portable tape recorder and notebook noting local linguistics. Yet.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 07:57:08 pm
content: Hint of an L, soft L whatever, it's there.I'd agree it's not pronounced yol-kuh (one syllable), but correctly said the presence of the L softens the sound of the preceding O.Having to determine the exact meanings of words purely on context, the spellings may as well all be the same and be done with.Pretty certain it's been linked before but on the subject of the treachery of language, heres some vintage British comedy:

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 08:18:09 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on November 10, 2024, 06:33:37 pmI don't know what to say here. It's not necessarily "sloppy pronunciation", it is often correct, normal pronunciation for native speakers. Perhaps you are running up against weak forms? I don't know, see the video below from Geoff Lindsey for more on that.One point he makes in that video, is that:QuoteFor "wark" instead of walk, I gave you the example of a native speaker in Hannah Ricketts above. Try watching that video and see what you think? Can you easily understand her? She is speaking in a very normal manner, very typical of a native speaker. Some in the comments even think she sounds a bit posh.For "cold", I did say that it isn't exactly c-ah-ow-d, but that's the best approximation I can come up with in writing. Once more, I gave you a dictionary link where you can hear it spoken.And in standard English, yolk and yoke sound exactly the same. Without context, you should not hear any difference between one or the other.What does sometimes happen, however, is that young people never hear how words are said by others, and they invent a pronunciation for themselves. Sometimes, this new pronunciation spreads, and becomes more common. This is how people often come to say "sal-mon" instead of "sammon".As for "tens a likely", I think there are one of two possibilities. On the one hand, someone said "seems unlikely" and you misheard it. Of they were trying to say "seems unlikely", but they misheard it in the past and ended up saying "tens a likely" instead.In conclusion, do remember that English does not have phonetic spelling, and so trying to say words as they are written will often trip you up.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 10:23:41 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 10, 2024, 01:24:35 amHadn't come across him before. To my ears he's pretty similar to the CarWow guy.What would you say about the three guys on Mozzy Sails? e.g.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 10:41:56 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 10, 2024, 06:18:18 pmIt is important for everyone to tow the line on this.::hide::

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 11:16:37 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on November 10, 2024, 10:23:41 pmI'm far from expert at judging accents, but the guy on the right who did a lot of talking at the beginning has a northern accent, could perhaps be somewhere like Manchester? The guy on the left has a southern accent, couldn't say more than that. The guy in the middle seems to have hints of somewhere in the Midlands, like Birmingham, maybe? But none of them could I place precisely.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 11:25:00 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 09, 2024, 11:13:04 pmThat was the one where one team was using metres, kilograms, seconds and the other was using furlongs, firkins and fortnights.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 11:28:14 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 10, 2024, 08:18:09 pmIt's not a great problem, and as I said accent is not an issue.I must say that I can't agree the words used as examples the L being silent... I've never even heard anyone that pronounces the name of the fish *sammon*, I hear the word as being pronounced with a very soft L sound, I don't think it's in any way a novel thing, or elitist, but perhaps just my inability to understand a hard to explain nuance, or am sensitive to the inferred L.Tens a likely. I was told it was a Norfolk contraction of: 'is not so very likely' so I can give you that one. There are others that took quite a while to learn, but don't really appear anywhere else in the vocabulary of the British Isles.To give an example of someone who I consider to have, actually now had, easily understood diction (though not perfect), I would say actor Donald Sutherland......A Canadian!Posh English accents, and their colloquial affectations, are by degrees infuriating to understand even now for me, Oh Kay yar! Drop your H's... totes amazeballs dahrling... my coat makes me look like Harry Henderson but it's sooo gorgeI did watch the Geoff Lindsey video on weak forms. It is something with which I'm familiar and again not so much of a problem, Mr Lindsey himself was easy to understand.I have every respect for Stephen Fry and Dame Judy Dench, but I would say that their manner of speech to me sounds quite slurred.Hannah Ricketts, yeah OK, probably not someone I'd have any interest in interacting with. Yes she's borderline understandable.Honestly just borderline understandable, shows a few traits of what I describe as sloppy pronunciation: and what is the paradigm where she sets off on a high speed verbal gabble every so often? If I wanted to understand everything she said I would have to slow the replay speed! I switched off before I felt the need to tear my ears offI did ask my friend here his thoughts, being 'born and bred' English, his remark was, 'hooray henrietta babble, if that's your example of good communication, God help you."Thanks for your input, it's appreciated.Regards,X

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 11:31:25 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on November 10, 2024, 10:41:56 pm

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 11:36:29 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 10, 2024, 12:09:06 amI've always wondered if schoolteachers in London speak the King's English, or do they revert to Cockney? Somehow, I can't imagine a teacher saying, "I fink vat vis is ...". In fact, I think that the worst exponents of the English language are the English themselves.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 11:46:13 pm
content: Quote from: fzabkar on November 10, 2024, 11:36:29 pmProbably a better chance to learn good basic English in a Finnish school...

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 11:57:58 pm
content: As they say, from start to Finnish.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 12:03:52 am
content: QuoteAs opposed to a finishing school

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 12:28:55 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on November 10, 2024, 11:28:14 pmHowever, they are both exemplars of perfect English diction. If you wish to speak English perfectly, you can do no better than to listen to them. If you don't like the way they speak, then you don't like the way English sounds. Which is an opinion you are perfectly entitled to, since many people in the world do not like the sound of English. I think some French people have said English sounds like a frog being strangled. Many British people think likewise of French. We are all entitled to our opinions.QuoteWell, sorry about that. I don't actually like the way she sounds myself, but I have to tell you that her speech is typical of the younger generation of native British speakers today. You don't have to like it, but it is what it is, and it is what you may hear.I can tell you that as a native speaker I have no trouble at all understanding her, and there is never a case where I would have to rewind a video to listen twice. If you wish to improve your ability to understand people around you, she is a good example of what you would need to get used to.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 11:48:53 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 11, 2024, 12:28:55 amThere's nothing wrong with the sound of the language or regional dialects I never said there was: properly spoken.I had no problem with the two celebrities manner of speaking and have respect for their individual talent, in fact re-runs of Jeeves and Wooster featuring Mr Fry are among the few TV shows I will watch.That clip was informative, my only comment was that their speech sounded unusually slurred.Quote from: IanB on November 11, 2024, 12:28:55 amI've been here since the age of ten years, partly through the British school system, part if that in Wales. No great problems.Further education. No great problem.Socially, no great problems,Work. Very few problems initially. Though in a management role for a few years, and having final say in the appointment of department staff, I can filter out people on the basis of communication skills.Would you employ a person who attended an interview who didn't seem to be able to speak coherently?Management meetings at my last place of employment however were a different matter and I would heckle anyone for using excessive verbal acronyms, corporate buzz words or BS.It had begun to seem that these Hannah Rickets style speakers were filtering into roles such as human resources, quality control, health and safety. Now these types do seem to be be educationally limited, (that's not intended as a comment on Ms Ricketts, just those I've met), however at work they have to be spoken to, negotiated with, and validated constantly. It may be an unfair assesment I will agree, however it's a connection I now subconsciously make, and it immediately triggers my Tourettes.Constantly having to learn novel colloquialisms that seem to circulate for a while then disappear, only to be replaced by new.This is very much a trait of people who I have concluded would sit through endless reality TV garbage then want to emulate it.Native speakers who I know do not like this phenomenon also say that it is accelerating and becoming more obtrusive in day to day life.You, saidthat I needed to pick a conversational style and stick to it. I did, it seems that it is some of the general population that need to do that.I don't think it's an unreasonable attitude, as I said I have heard the complaint from others who have lived in the UK since birth.Quote from: IanB on November 11, 2024, 12:28:55 amWell good for you, for being down with the kids! (I find Ms Ricketts is around the same age as me, as it happens). Once again I appreciate your comments, but unless the likes of Ms Ricketts actually has something interesting to say, I don't think I'll bother with straining my limited grasp on transient styles of speech.X

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 11:52:22 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on November 11, 2024, 12:03:52 amNo. An actual Finnish, finishing school.