project Ethics? ghost hunting equipment, giving a robot a taser? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: rickey1990
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 12:14:49 am
content: Well id like this discussion to be on the project ethics, but mainly the temptation on designing for profits. something like a ghost detector, i don't believe in ghosts, but if someone's going to pay you 100's for one. would you still make them and sell them?.I had afew idea's on how to make ghost detectors better, adding distance from "ghost" LED'S and a system that can track the "ghost", picture attached - a very crude drawing with some mistakes.and yes... i built a robot that can sense humans and defended its self with a electric shock. because it makes it more natural.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 01:57:47 am
content: Nerf auto turrets all around!

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 04:24:47 am
content: Quote from: rickey1990 on June 18, 2015, 12:14:49 amThis is my opinion from what you wrote. Opinion is just opinion - no justification but merely points of view.Had it been building some legal thing to customer spec, ethics would be less an issue. Good ethics then merely stops at telling the customer: "Hey, this will work according to your spec, but as to it detecting ghost, I don't know. It works to spec and will detect merely what your spec will be able to detect."Since you said: "I had a few idea's on how to make ghost detectors better..." you took over the responsibility of it being a working ghost detector as oppose to working to spec. That placed it in a dark grey zone. It would be your responsibility for it to work as a ghost detector. Base on that statement you said (which I quoted), that would be your claim: "a better ghost detector". Do YOU feel comfortable with such claim?As to robot taser, at least it is not deadly. Are you sure the user will intent to use it in a legal manner? A factory worker making kitchen knife is far from a prisoner making a knife in secret behind the bars. So, make sure your robot taser design is focused on it being used legally. ie: "this button will play the message: give me all your money or I will shoot" should not be part of the design.Rick

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 07:25:55 am
content: If you don't believe in it you shouldn't create it.Off topic: How does one calibrate a ghost detector? Also, what's the warranty/return policy? Testing? Do you go to an ancient burial ground that has been cursed by a gypsy?

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 07:57:03 am
content: So, if I build a ghost detector that has zero false positives and zero false negatives then it will be 100% accurate. I can't see anybody proving that your device gives false negatives (there was a ghost and we never picked it up), and therefore proving that the product is defective (however I can see common sense and law have nothing in common at times)Of course any 'serious' ghost hunter wants it to be overly sensitive, and give a few false positives. now and then.. And in doing so i guess you would be making a defective product.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 08:52:16 am
content: QuoteI have one like that - it's called a brick.

author: Tandy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 09:35:42 am
content: Building and marketing a ghost detector would be fraud plain and simple, let me explain.You quite sensibly don't believe in ghosts so therefore are fully aware that if ghosts don't exist then it is impossible to build a device to detect something that does not exist. If you sell this as a ghost detector you would be deliberately misleading people by claiming your device could do something you know full well it can't do.If you created a temperature sensor for example and sold it as that, mentioning in your promotional material that such devices are popular with ghost hunters then you enter a grey area. You are legally sound as you are not making the claim that the device can detect ghosts, you are primarily selling it as a functional temperature sensor or whatever it is. You are leaving it to the 'ghost hunters' to decide for themselves if a temperature sensor might help them with their pointless quest. It is just a case then of examining your personal ethics. Personally I wouldn't even mention ghosts in relation to the gadget I built as I would feel uncomfortable in encouraging people in the sense that even mentioning it suggest that I am endorsing the ridiculous idea. I am very much against pseudo science and unfounded beliefs. For me it is very important to encourage people to use reason and logic to discover the truth showing the pedlars of bullshit for what they really are, so would be careful not to do anything that added support to nonsensical ideas.Now if someone came to me and gave me a schematic for a circuit and asked me to build it for them, no problem. I would explain to them that I can build the circuit to the specification that they have given me but that I have no expectation of it working as there is no evidence that such a circuit can work. But at the end of the day if I am offering a service to build circuits to the public then I will not discriminate. I don't care if you want me to build a circuit that you believe can cure an illness, communicate with a God or detect alien spacecraft. As far as I am concerned you are entitled to your strange ideas no matter how nuts I might think you are. If that is what you want and you are willing to pay the going rate then why should't I just build the thing, after all it is none of my business what you think and it is not my job to educate you if you don't want to listen to reason.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 11:14:18 am
content: Quote from: Tandy on June 18, 2015, 09:35:42 amI might disagree - if you made a "ghost and monster sensor" to put under kids beds that did nothing but maybe had an ultrasonic sensor that beeped with dramatic changes in distance (so not too sensitive as when you roll over in bed, but enough that if you waved your hand over it it would alarm).It works perfectly well, reassure the kid that all is fine, and will never detect a ghost (but maybe mouse or two!), but would not be fraud at all.Perfectly marketable.

author: Tandy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 11:18:33 am
content: Except with children's toys there is an expectation of fantasy. You as an adult know that the plastic racing car is not a proper car, just a plastic box on wheels, even though in the child's mind they are racing car driver.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 11:35:46 am
content: i see this going the way of religion , I dont believe in ghosts therefore it is fraud.... I dont believe in god but there are millions who do and a Govt who support the church, try suing god for all the ills of the world, if god exists then so do ghosts.

author: Tandy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 12:42:11 pm
content: That is the point, if you don't believe in God then why would you build a church? If you don't believe in ghosts why build a ghost detector. It is about selling something knowing it to be fake vs selling something you believe to be real.Two examples.1. Someone who is convinced that homeopathic remedies work perhaps through personal experience setting up a store selling remedies, no matter how misguided they may be their intention is good. In this situation I would say if you bought these 'remedies' from the person that is your own problem for failing to look into it.2. Someone who is fully aware that homeopathic remedies do not work but decides oh what the hack lets sell these sugar pills to the idiots who do believe it taking advantage of their gullibility is deliberately setting out to deceive. Promoting homeopathy despite not believing it is wrong.Now it is difficult to prove intent in a legal case but the question is one about ethics. If you want to behave ethically then selling something to people just because they are gullible is IMHO taking advantage of their vulnerability.

author: McBryce
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 12:59:41 pm
content: Fraud only comes into it if you are claiming something that can be proven to be untrue. It's all down to wording. If you design a device that measures the electrical charge in the air and temperature fluctuations in the room, then you are fully entitled to sell the device to anyone who believes that sensing these is (in their belief) sensing a Ghost. As long as you explain what your device senses and it does that properly, then there's no fraud. If you claim that it "senses ghosts" then you've put yourself on the whacky side and could be accussed of fraud by any sane person.As for building something that could harm or kill someone, I'd advise you not to do this. All the warnings in the world aren't going to save you from litigation.I'd say more on the subject, but I really need to get back to designing my shark mounted laser cannon.McBryce.

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2015, 02:41:48 pm
content: Yea, I kind of agree with the previous answers. If you think that an "improved ghost detector" can make you a lot of money, it's not entirely ethical, but not obviously UNethical either, if you were to market it under a name that describes its actual capabilities - eg. "sudden temperature change detector". You may even go as far and call it a "thermalanomalydetector", though I've got the feeling that is a bit dodgy, and could ruin your street cred with sane people.As for machines built for the express purpose of harming humans, in most jurisdictions that counts as malicious intent, and if someone is hurt or killed by it (even if it's obviously their fault), you (or the one who actually put it to use) can be criminally liable.In Hungary where I grew up, some 20 years ago there was this farmer who built an electric fence around his orchard to keep thieves out, with HUGE, visible billboards warning of the danger to scare intruders away. Two poor kids tried to climb in to steal stuff, and were killed... The farmer was sent to prison for manslaughter, because the fence was built with the capability to kill humans.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 12:02:46 am
content: Do it man. If people are stupid enough to buy it then that's their problem.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 01:54:50 am
content: Whether ghosts exist or not, what you are building is a ghost detector - right? So what are the proven physical measurable signs of a ghost?Don't know? Then you can't build a device to detect a ghost. Therefore there is some measure of fraud or ethical issue if you say you can.What is the difference between this and marketing a monster cable or water powered generator? Not much.

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 03:12:38 am
content: Quote from: aargee on June 19, 2015, 01:54:50 amThing is, if the people who believe in paranormal phenomena have some good idea of what physical measurements they want to keep a lookout for, you can build them a device to measure what they want to. There's nothing underhanded about that, it's not like you're the one convincing them to go search for ghosts.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 05:49:27 am
content: Ah yes, but that is building a device under contract for someone or organisation who knows what physical effects they are looking for. Whether or not it actually detects ghosts.To market a device as a 'ghost detector' to the general public, and make that assertion, that's a different case all together.

author: ResR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 04:20:03 pm
content: Usually ghosts are related to fast changing values of electromagnetic field and temperature. Most of the time the "investigation" also consists disproving the "haunting" by closely inspecting the state of the electrical system (a lot of paranormal claims are actually the direct results of high EMF), drafts from bad seals on the windows, holes in the wall, loose pipes etc. or even blatant frauds (some do go that far to fraud a ghost hunter). Only when there's no logical explanation for the happening it's called paranormal and even then it takes more than one event to make that conclusion.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 05:26:28 pm
content: Quote from: daqq on June 18, 2015, 07:25:55 amFrom a business perspective that isn't always good advice. I have worked on several projects which didn't work out in the end. Some looked really promising (making medical care easier) while others where dubious even though there where lots of different patents saying it should work (battery desulfation comes to mind). I had to draw the line (respectfully decline) when a behavior researcher asked me to create a device to give people a real shock if they showed unwanted behaviour.

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 08:17:47 pm
content: Quote from: Delta on June 19, 2015, 12:02:46 amDon't be that guy.Don't increase human misery. The surest way to increase human misery is to seek to profit from human stupidity.That doesn't mean you have to believe in what you are designing/selling. To believe in something, you should understand it. You don't and can't understand everything. Of course, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't try and learn. In fact, you should try and learn, because, as an engineer, more understanding leads to better designs and better solutions for problems.Now, while you don't have to believe in what you are designing/selling, you should not design/sell in something about which you have serious reservations. Designing and building implements for more efficient genocide to someone's spec doesn't get you off the hook, nor should it. Of course, not everything is so clear cut.Gambling machines are something I have trouble with, because they exploit human frailty. E-cigs are a little more complicated. At some point, they were a mitigation for human frailty, now though as traditional cigarettes continue to dwindle, while e-cigs are growing quickly, and people some people are cultivating their creation of second-hand smoke, its harder.Ghost detectors... well, at first pass, I'd say NO, don't go there. You are feeding and exploiting a pathology. On the other hand, I think that "ghosts" and things like them are an unavoidable emergent property of the human condition. Our species has flourished due to a capacity for rational though coupled with social tendencies. Both of these things lead us to want fairness and predictability, but the universe is chaotic and indifferent. Collectively, we fill the gap with many things, ghosts included. And if some of us need ghosts, then some of us need to know whether or not ghosts are present, and therefore, ghost detectors.From one point of view, I'm not sure a ghost detector is all that different than an "artwork" a painting, or a sculpture, or a performance, like a play, a concert, an action movie or pro wrestling match. However, I think there is an important distinction to be made. A painting, a sculpture, a play, a concert, or an action movie aren't making to be a serious claim to be reality, they all depend on the ability to suspend disbelief, to understand that something is an artifice while at the same time, being able to feel real emotion, to react to it as if it were real.On the other hand, their is pro wrestling. Some can appreciate it as an athletic sort of theater (not that they'd call it that) without having to believe that it is "real," and then there are those who grow enraged at the suggestion that there is any artifice to it at all.So, where do we put a ghost detector? It think a concern with ghosts need not be a pathology, just as gambling or drug addiction isn't a pathology that afflicts every, or even most people. One can flirt with ghosts the same way some of us pump $5 into a slot machine when we pass through Nevada, or my mother manages to enjoy one cigarette a week. But a ghost detector seems like the sort of thing that only appeals to someone with an unhealthy obsession with ghosts. The question then is, is making a ghost detector likely to bring relief from that obsession, by helping them manage it, like, say, methadone helps heroin addicts manage their heroin addiction, or does it just feed it, by, at the very least, draining them of resources needed to meet basic needs.So then, even after more consideration, I would say NO, having thought to wonder whether making a better ghost detector is ethical, you shouldn't then conclude that you should make one.I'll ask you a question now: Why are you contemplating the ethics of making a better ghost detector? Are you drawn to it because you like contemplating the ethics of such things? To understand why some people choose to work on things you consider unethical? Because you want a (profitable) project that isn't strictly practical? Because you want to understand how people can come to buy something like a better ghost detector?

author: lincoln
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 09:27:53 pm
content: Quote from: Tandy on June 18, 2015, 11:18:33 amSays the guy that has never hear of a "real doll" before...

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 10:59:13 am
content: QuoteThere's a difference between "not believe" as in "I think that the concept can work, but due to management/finance/some engineering reason the project will fail" and "not believe" as in "I think that the very nature of the thing you are trying to make is a scam preying on those who believe".