Can printer manufacturers make it "difficult" to use compatible cartridges? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 08:50:31 am
content: I have an Epson XP-760 inkjet printer, and for it I use compatible cartridges.I believe EU regulations are such that manufacturers must allow this and what's more, it cannot even void the warranty if it cannot be proven that the third party cartridges are the cause of a malfunction.So far, I've only been displayed some messages that I'm not using original cartridges which supposedly are great, blah, blah... But not a single threat about longevity or anything of the kind.However, from one day printing perfectly fine to the next being almost illegible has me wondering if there aren't any hidden "obstacles" in the firmware to occasionally simulate printhead or cartridge problems on compatible non originals.The attachment shows how badly it printed before a clean up. After the first clean up it looked slightly better, and then I took out the worst offender, the black cartridge. It was not empty yet. After the first reinstall the printer complained that I had done it wrong. The second attemp yielded the same message, however the ink levels displayed just fine on ALL cartridges and what's more, it printed fine too... without me having to click away any popup message.I reinstalled the black cartridge once more for good measure, and guess what... all of a sudden it prints fine again (third test in the attachment)...This has me wondering about the firmware, and if someone else has seen this suddenly-bad-suddenly-ok-again behaviour on compaitble cartridges.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 09:44:15 am
content: Air bubbles are a possibility I considered, however, from perfectly fine one day to air voids in three cartridges all at once the next day?Hard to see on the scan is that the first test print showed massive voids on the black (BK) catridge followed by light cyan (LC) and magenta (M). Yellow (Y), cyan (C) and light magenta (LM) were fine.After the first clean up BK was only slightly better, LC had completely corrected and M was almost there.The one thing I noticed is that the voids were in adjacent colours on the printout (C-Y-LC-BK-M-LM).The printout shows a different order than their physical place inside the printer, however the affected cardtridges are still adjacent, and I wonder if that might be the reason for the problematic colours also being adjacent.The actual physical order (from L to R) is BK-LC-M-C-Y-LM

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 10:42:36 am
content: Inkjets I have always had problems with, constant sources of frustration.Lasers are almost as cheap these days even new (and you can get them used at least around here for basically nothing), only reason to own an inkjet in my opinion is if you are printing a lot of colour images.As for refills, Epson certainly used to have "smart" cartridges to lock you into their supply chain and prevent (easy) refills, it wouldn't necessarily surprise me if they made the experience "lesser" on a cartridge they detected as third party.Brother printers however at least the ones I've used, have always just had dumb ink containers, no smarts, drill a hole and squirt in appropriate ink to refill, I never had problems with third party ink (apart from the usual problems of constant cleaning cycles, blocked nozzles from sitting for 6 months between prints, and so forth...)

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 11:33:49 am
content: Of course the firmware could detect a third-party cartridge and simulate poor print quality, but this is most likely not the case; the problem most likely is in the actual ink itself.Contrary to what people think, inkjet ink is just not any ink. Because it needs very precise flow characteristics, it is not trivial to copy. Third-party inks havealwaysbeen inferior to the manufacturer ink in most cases.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 11:40:57 am
content: Quote from: jitter on October 23, 2016, 09:44:15 amThat's exactly the kind of risk you should expect from "compatible" inks, the chemistry not being fully appropriate for the way the printer uses it, or just not sufficient engineering...Inkjet printers have complex procedures to prevent bubbling/drying such as purging an amount of ink every X days without use, after Y pages, maybe depending on the temperature etc and all of these procedures have been determined using the original ink. Throw in another that behaves a bit differently and the procedures don't quite match anymore.It doesn't necessarily mean the compatible ink is "bad", it's just "not compatible enough". Obviously manufacturers of compatible inks won't spend months of R&D/reverse engineering to match their ink to the printer they sell it for, they just try to find something that mostly works in as many models as possible... They're not really there for you to save money, but to make as much as they can.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 12:23:08 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 23, 2016, 11:33:49 amI see what you mean, but I would also expect that there's some sort of golden formula that will lead to best results. A formula dictated by the physical properties of tiny droplets being hurtled at the paper, and therefore regardless of the brand that's on the printer.But wouldn't that also mean that the ink properties among the competitors would be very comparable at worst and identical at best? And with that, those of the third party supply chain's as well?

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 12:46:32 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on October 23, 2016, 11:40:57 amTrue, but their business model is different.The printer manufacturers chose to sell their printers at a loss, or at very very little revenue at best. To recuperate the cost, they must sell their cartridges way overpriced. But this model has led to the enormous amount of third party suppliers.Epson is trying to introduce a different business model with the Eco Tank range (their marketing department may put it a little differently, though).Look at the prices of those printers, even a basic model, like the ET-2550 (which can't even print double-sided automatically) costs quite a bit more than a luxury cartridge model like my XP-760. But look at the prices of those ink bottles for the Eco Tanks, even original Epson bottles with 70 ml of ink cost a "mere" € 10 per bottle.Compare that to the 10 ml (and that's theXL!) cartridge for my printer at € 18. A full 6 colour XL set can set me back € 100 to € 125, depending on where I buy it... That money will buy you a new XP-760...

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 12:54:10 pm
content: Hp refuses to print with generic inks unless you do some megic key combination.Canon has to "prepare" each print job. Wasting tons of ink in the spittoon.Brother lasers require a webpage confirm each boot.Yes, the deliberatly make using generic refills horrible. The ink mafia.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 01:13:08 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on October 23, 2016, 12:54:10 pmFunny you should say this.I used to have a Pixma MP550 that I started using compatible cartirdges on as soon as the warranty ran out. The originals always were spot on empty when the printer started refusing to print.The compatibles often misreported the amount of ink leading either to the head running out (and me quickly installing a new one and deep cleaning it to get the ink going again) or running "out" a bit too quickly with still some ink left (preferable to the former, though). Other than that no real problems and I didn't notice any difference in the cleaning routine.However, when this one went belly up on mechanical problems I bought a Pixma MG5550 and boy was that a mistake.It was slow, noisy and every couple of pages would do the cleaning thing - even on the original cartridges. And when it started misbehaving by not taking paper properly I didn't bother with the warranty but smashed it on the floor instead and bought the Epson. It was that frustrating a printer to use...

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 01:18:05 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 23, 2016, 01:11:01 pmAs you can see by my previous post I will think twice ever considering a Canon printer again. I do like the looking glass thing though. Looks much more purpose designed than the ugly add on after thought tank thing on the Epson.But my current Epson must keep going for a while and by the time it dies no doubt Epson will have nice looking Eco Tank models too. And if they keep the prices of the ink low enough, they won't have much fear of third party stuff appearing.But the best thing: getting rid of all those different cartridges. It's madness to think how many there are when they're basically just a container for ink. One bottle to fill them all...

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 02:40:40 pm
content: do these cis units redirect the waste to a tank, or are you still saturating a pile of felt in the base of the printer?

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 05:46:48 am
content: I see a lot of people around me switch to colour laser printers now that they have become affordable.These people all use their printers only occasionally and got fed up with dried out inkjet heads. So that had got we wondering whether my next printer would still be an inkjet (regardless of cartridge or internal tank type).However, I print regularly, in colour, and I want to be able to (occasionally) print a photo quality (on good quality photo paper, of course).Would I be better off sticking with inkjet, or should I buy a laser printer and farm out the photo printing a a pro printing shop?

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 05:54:06 am
content: the felt pads are not for conveniance.more likely they dont want you blending the waste 50/50 with the black to recycle it.btw, i had one of the first injet printers, a canon bj300that had an ink cartridge that had an internal waste storage so the printer was not full of crap in a pad!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 06:21:30 am
content: Quote from: jitter on October 24, 2016, 05:46:48 amInkjets can be a PITA, we had one stored in our attic for at least 2 years that flat out refused to print, new cartridges or not.Print head was dried up rock solid.Luckily it had a detachable head that I let stand on wet paper towels for a couple of days, replacing them with new wet towels a couple of times a day until there was no ink left to wick out.Put it back together and it's been working like new for ~6 months now.The only reason we got it out of storage was for the scan and copy function it has.Both our other printers are lasers, an old 6MP Epson and a not so old colour Oki.We find toners for these old printers quite cheap, even genuine's on our local online sales (Trademe, NZ's eBay) from other owners that have excess consumables or their printers have since died.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 06:29:54 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on October 23, 2016, 10:42:36 amYep. I went laser a few years ago after I printed a single page graphic that cost me half an hour and about $20 in ink while a customer was waiting. Haven't looked back since. Switch on, print, job done.Inkjets are a constant source of frustration, expense and annoyance. Would you really put up withanyother device that was so hit/miss? Would you own a TV where several lines of red go missing on alternate Tuesdays and it costs you a trip to the store and $20 to get them back again?The only reason I'd ever use an inkjet now would be if somebody was paying me by the page.Color graphics look great on a laser, photos embedded in documents are passable. If I want really nice full page photos I can print them much better/cheaper in the print shop on the corner. It's less effort to go down there than to keep stocked up on spare ink cartridges and fancy printer paper./rant over

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 06:40:27 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 24, 2016, 06:29:54 amBout time you got a decent photo quality laser, that Oki I mentioned printsunbelievableimagery on just plain paper.The C5200's are renowned for it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 09:07:08 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 24, 2016, 06:40:27 amAnd only costs $1250...Yeah, mine's about 8 years old now. I imagine technology has advanced.Maybe I'll look into one next time my toner runs out (about 3 years to go if the last set of cartridges are anything to go by).

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 10:36:21 am
content: Laser all the way, the overwhelming majority of my printing needs are mono except for the occasional session with the kid's homework and I have my photos printed at Costco as I cannot match the quality of their prints for anything like their prices.My preferred laser printers are the HP 4x50 series, dirt cheap to buy second hand (cheap enough to not bother repairing beyond pickup rollers) and they last seemingly forever, the one I rest my feet on at home has somewhere close to half a million pages on it and still keeps on churning out excellent quality duplex printed documents at around 40PPM (which can be a curse if something goes wrong with the data transfer, you end up with a lot of note/doodle paper before you can stop it printing gibberish)

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 11:06:57 am
content: I have a Samsung CLP-410 and the photo quality is easily comparable to quality inkjets.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 02:40:41 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 24, 2016, 09:07:08 amOurs is older than yours, luckily we were given it as it wouldn't print properly, no shit Sherlock, it had a full A4 sheet wrapped around the fuser drum.It was still quite new, page count ~2k and we got a bit of use out of it before the 2.5k page toners expired.Recently it kept throwing Magenta toner errors and that turned out to be a toner drum error. NOS drum and some cheap NOS OEM toner cartridges from the same seller and it's allagain.Quote from: CJay on October 24, 2016, 10:36:21 amNow that's what I want for my Oki, a Duplex unit. Envious.I've seen them on eBay for mine, not cheap though.Real PITA without one when you want to print a manual with DS pages.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 08:52:28 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 24, 2016, 02:40:41 pmBig advantage of the HP printers, the whole assembly, printer, a high capacity cartridge with ~60% toner, a second tray and a duplexer cost me £60.