PCBs. Make your own, or buy online? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 04:31:22 am
content: For as long as I can remember I've wanted to make my own PCBs. It's either never been essential, or it's been (seemed?) too expensive, or I had no idea how at the time. Right now I don't even have a project, but I have time and loot so I'd like to give it a go. I did design and order a small board from OSHPark a while ago, my first one, and, I have to say, the experience was astonishingly rewarding! But I digress.There are a few pretty damn useful threads right here about home-fab PCBs (Links below for anyone interested) but that's not my question either really.Everywhere I look, where someone is explaining how to make PCBs at home, there isalwaysa subset of naysayers saying, "Why are you wasting your time. PCBs aresocheap from china these days, you're crazy." Well, I've taken a look at some fab places, but probably not all, and possibly not the one all these guys are talking about, and I can't find one that seems cheap to me at all! In fact, there's an outfit right here in NZ that does hobby rates and frankly they seem comparable to the Chinese crowds. (http://www.pcbzone.net) OK, I acceptrelativelycheap, compared to years ago, but compared to DIY? I just can't see it. Maybe they're talking about 20 boards or 200. If you need more than a few then I can see the cost savings for sure, but what are these naysayers doing for just one or two prototypes? Even OSHPark gets expensive very quickly once you're over a few inches2.So I guess my actual questions are, and I'm talking strictly about hobby use here, not industry best practice: If you aren't making your own prototypes, where do you get them at a comparable price? And what is that price?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/pcb-etching-with-less-nasty-chemicalshttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/applying-positive-photo-resisthttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/my-way-to-professional-prototype-at-homeedit: And what is that price?

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 04:43:19 am
content: I'm a fan of Seeed studio.I wait until I have enough to take advantage of free shipping - and by the time I've built and tested one round of boards I usually have enough for another round.

author: MatCat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 05:01:35 am
content: Personally I use OSHPark for prototypes and elecrow for production runs. At first I was all about setting up to do my own PCBs but reality showed me that it's much cheaper when you consider time invested to go to OSH Park, plus there is quality issues that exist with full on DIY.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 06:07:43 am
content: OSHPark for PCBs, OSHStencils for the stencils. Good price, good quality, good turnaround time, good ordering process.

author: Dago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 06:50:11 am
content: Itead and Seedstudio both do 50x50mm two-layer boards for under 15$ including shipping and ten pieces. There's just no reason other than being in a hurry to make your own PCBs in my opinion (and I've made tons of PCBs myself) nowadays.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 06:59:11 am
content: If you want to give DIY a go then less than $50 worth of chemicals and bits and bobs and a laser printer and you are all go. From blank PCB to populating the board in 30 minutes. If you are near West Auckland I could show you how.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 08:13:17 am
content: Making your own boards ishighlyoverrated.Unless you need somethingtoday, it's just not worth the effort for ultimately a crap result.I used to do it all the time before there was such a thing as the cheap prototype services we take for granted these days, but now there is simply no need. I haven't touched my etching gear in a decade.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 09:22:40 am
content: I used to etch boards at college, because I had too much time on my hands in the workshop there (we even had lunch there, tastes extra nice with SK10 flux O0).Since I finished I resorted to seeed&Itead PCB's and have to say in contrast etched boards are really bad quality. Some of the projects I have made 3 years back are now beginning to "die". I coated the boards completely in SK10 fluxaftersoldering again, but that same flux is now turning white and the board is basically unprotected. I could probably respray or whatever, but what the heck..I'll likely do a respin of the project instead and order them from Seeed. A downside of Seeed is that a PCB of 170x80mm costs so much more than their "flagship" 50x50mm, and you get 5 or 10 pcs (where I only need 1). In that case, I'll probably have to make like 2-3 for some friends to divide the costs, or look at OSHpark oneday.Those "professional" PCB's offer so much more: soldermask, silkscreen, 0.3mm holes/via's and plated via's (no more dicking around with via's under IC's).And you can put 1000 holes/via's on a board and don't spend a single minute extra on fabrication. Drilling holes took a considerable amount of time.. at college we had this drill with scope, even then via's were a pain to do.So basically:Do I need to try this part of my design *today*? If yes, etch. If it works, put it on final PCB. If it doesn't, back to drawing board.Otherwise go to seeed etc., OSHpark or local PCB manufacturer.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 10:16:58 am
content: I've been etching my own PCBs for a long time using different methods, and they still have their place. For small smt stuff (which I am a fan of), especially dense boards o tend to order from Elecrow if I can wait for 3 weeks until the package arrives. If time is more of a concern than cost I either go with Elecrow with expedited shipping, or local PCB shops - whichever is more convenient at the moment, the price is about the same.Need to verify stuff RIGHT NOW? Homemade PCBs are your friend.There is one are though, where homemade PCBs still excel: power electronics. First of all those boards are quite often big which can get expensive for 'cheap pcb services' rather quickly. Typically a powerboard (smps for example) uses rather large components, many of which are THT so extreme precision is not the highest priority. Another thing is that most of the prototype shops offer 1oz copper exclusively. 2oz? 3oz? more? Forget about it. I dunno how about other countries, but on local Polish auction site I can find a dozen or so offers for 2oz copper laminate and it costs about the same as 1oz. 3oz is usually available too if you contact the seller - they sometimes have some in stock but don't list it as the demand is rather low. I wonder how much a 3oz, 15cmx20cm boards would cost for a prototype.

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 11:32:41 am
content: Hi all,One thing I had forgotten about in relation to home brew pcb's was..............track pins. Oh the days sitting there pressing these in with a soldering iron. One slip and right across a bunch of tracks.....ugghh!Ian.http://uk.farnell.com/harwin/t1563f46k/track-pin-1mm-pk1000/dp/1143880

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 01:32:29 pm
content: Thanks guysQuote from: tautech on March 13, 2014, 06:59:11 amThanks for the offer tautech! I'm in Auckland city. I think I have everything needed, apart from some H2O2. I think I can handle it, but I'd love to shoot the shit about the hobby for an hour or two. I'll PM you tomorrow.Quote from: EEVblog on March 13, 2014, 08:13:17 amI understand. Really. It's those "cheap prototype services we take for granted these days" that just don't seem so cheap to me. Maybe I'm searching wrong, or filling in the quote forms wrong. My question remains though: If you're just pissing about with some hobby stuff, how do you justify a hundy for a board (even though you probably get a couple included)?Quote from: hans on March 13, 2014, 09:22:40 amThis correlates with what I see myself. Maybe one day I'll be enthusiastic or confident enough to not care about the extra expense. But I'm glad you see my point.Quote from: hans on March 13, 2014, 09:22:40 amAll of that. I get it.Quote from: Dago on March 13, 2014, 06:50:11 amMaybe I'm thinking about this wrong. Maybe I should be looking to build modular stuff on small PCBs (50x50?) and build up something more complex that way. That's probably going to end up easier to debug anyway.Another thing. While I think of it. I'm inclined to share Dave's issue with manufacturers putting their own data onmysoldermask. Do you guys just live with that?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 02:15:23 pm
content: Quote from: apelly on March 13, 2014, 01:32:29 pmIt's not that we have any choiceThe pcb fab uses this code for their own internal logistics, you can not ask them to change the entire factory logistics.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 02:21:18 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 13, 2014, 08:13:17 amEtching your own board is a rewarding challenge. Making your own anything is highly overrated if you want to be productive, we do it because we enjoy it.Quote from: apellyEasiest to get in quantity and strength on Trademe, some supermarkets and pharmacies have little bottles.HCl is available at Bunnings (Digger brand in paints aisle) and Mitre10 (Andrew "Spirits of Salts"), or on Trademe.Blank PCB, Photoresist dry film, Via rivets, 0.8 to 1.5mm drill bits & chucks, and double tipped resist pens for touchup all on trademe (*cough* see my signature *cough*). Tracing paper from any art shop is good for UV artwork. Washing Soda from any supermarket is good for dry film developing.For toner transfer there's another seller on TM (gail_and_nick) that has the proper transfer paper.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 02:33:27 pm
content: Quote from: apelly on March 13, 2014, 01:32:29 pmElecrow will do 10, 10x10 double sided boards for$16 US with $6US shipping, thats with the slowest shipping speed ect, even with the fastest, thats still VERY reasonable. If you need bigger boards, it is slightly cheaper to get bigger boards, rather than multiple smaller boards.Whilst modular is good, it's also super messy and annoying to assemble, bigger board with test points and/or jumpers to separate the sections is what you want. In reference to my above comment, it is also cheaper.On some boards, the board houses silkscreen is annoying, but usually it doesn't bother me as the board is almost never seen.

author: mark03
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 02:56:44 pm
content: In the end I gave up trying to etch my own PCBs not because of cost/effort, but because of quality. I can't imagine doing QFP/QFN (and maybe even BGA soon) on a DIY board without solder mask! And avoiding parts in those packages is out of the question. It's a shame, though---I wasted a lot of time and money on an ultimately futile exercise.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 03:50:54 pm
content: And if you DO need quick turn around and can't afford to wait for 2 weeks for some of the places quoted above, there are places like barebonespcb.com. 1 day turn around time, pretty cheap (I recently had a ~9 sqin 2 layer board made for about $75 plus $5 for each board ($75 for 1, $80 for 2, $85 for 3, etc.), good quality, you just don't get soldermask or silkscreen and there are some restrictions when it comes to board shapes and routing.

author: Lukapt
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 05:15:01 pm
content: Quote from: sleemanj on March 13, 2014, 02:21:18 pmHi, what kind of tracing paper do you use?The one I've bought at the local artwork shop, comes out bit 'wrinkly' from laser printer.I've bought one big sheet A1, 90g/cm2 (I think) and cut it in to few A4 size sheets.Unfortunately, my printer messes up plastic transparencies (ghosting) so I cannot use them.Thanx

author: granz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 06:14:31 pm
content: Quote from: poorchava on March 13, 2014, 10:16:58 amI second that. I think the only time I ever etch anything anymore is for a power board. Often you can get away with single-sided as well because of the reasons you mentioned, and that makes the process a bit less of a PITA.My feeling is that it's mostly not-a-waste-of-time if A) you need something within the next hour, or B) you are just interested in learning the process, or C) the world has fallen into chaos and you need to build something without the use of outside (foreign) organizations.One thing to keep in mind is that often your board layout will probably be somewhat different if you are going to etch it yourself vs. order it. This means extra time wasted if you then go on to order it.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 08:42:58 pm
content: I've etched my share of boards using various methods from proper negatives and photoresist to the laser toner method. Eventually it comes down to where you want to spend your time. To me, time is more valuable than money and making boards isn't a good use of my time. Now I tend to do one of two things. Either I'm in a super hurry to try something, and just grind it out with a Dremel tool, or I want something decent and double sided, so I order out.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 09:13:49 pm
content: Quote from: Lukapt on March 13, 2014, 05:15:01 pmI use 110GSM A4 size.

author: hlavac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 11:11:48 am
content: Quote from: mark03 on March 13, 2014, 02:56:44 pmYou can do solder mask, check out Dynamask for example.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 12:56:07 pm
content: hlavac's bump reminded me:sleemanj, you are repeatedly helpful, and I thank you. I have acquired some h2o2 from trademe.Addressing your pulmonary issue: Idolook at your trademe listings from time to time, but thus far you haven't had anything I wanted. Obviously I would PM you here anyway. Trademe can stick their crazy fees.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 08:22:23 pm
content: I order my boards from a company called Sitopway. They are on eBay. I've been fairly happy with them so far. For about $95.00 US, i get 10 boards 10cmx10cm, a stencil, and shipping. They do whatever I need done to the boards (routing, v-score, elongated pads, cutouts, etc: gold plating extra, of course). Why not make them myself? Well, for the cost of the materials to make one, and the time involved, I come out ahead money-wise by just buying them, and the $20 charge for a stencil.....well, I can't make one for that. I don't have the machinery to make one.Even if materials cost me less than $20, I can't see myself spending several hours making these things, when I can make double that amount working for a few hours on a job and just buy the boards already made...with the stainless steel stencil included.It just doesn't make sense to make these things anymore yourself. Just my .02.

author: MatCat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 08:55:09 pm
content: Quote from: Falcon69 on March 18, 2014, 08:22:23 pmElecrow is still cheaper then that, last week I got in 10 boards 10cm by 20cm, black soldermask, vscoring (264 total boards), would be $94 out the door with their cheapest shipping, though I did do DHL for an extra $20 since it gets the boards in my hands 4 days from shipping instead of 3 weeks, and of course I got the stencil from OSH Stencils for $10.

author: sebajom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 02:05:31 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 13, 2014, 08:13:17 amQuote from: apelly on March 13, 2014, 01:32:29 pmOf course, it all depends on your perspective.Yes, etching your own boards takes a bit of time -- especially for boards with lots of drilling/vias -- but so does a lot of other things. If you hate it, by all means go ahead and outsource this step to a PCB shop. Personally, I find the process of creating nice and professionally looking PCBs at home very satisfying.Additionally, as you've already noted, it's dirt cheap and the turnaround time is on the order of hours. Using UV presensitized copper clad (which can be found for very little on ebay) you can very easily get very fine detail and reliable results. And the initial investment is fairly low (probably less than US $40, depending on what equipment you already own).Anyway, in the end I think it comes down to whether you like it or not. Either way, you'll end up spending a lot more time planning, designing, testing and laying out your circuits than etching the boards.

author: LukeW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 06:14:02 am
content: Even putting aside cost, lead time, or the fun/enjoyment of PCB manufacturing, with modern high density SMD ICs it is usually just not practical to make the board yourself, if the board has any non-trivial level of complexity with SMD ICs.Suppose that I know that X PCB fab house supports 6/6 design rules, and 13 thou minimum drills, on a 2 layer board.That's what I'd expect from a "basic cheap hobbyist" service.What are the guaranteed "design rules" that you can support with garage DIY fabrication? Can you reliably deliver 6/6?Oh yeah, and I need 13 thou via drills, and those vias need to be absolutely flat so that they fit underneath a surface mount chip.That's a basic expectation that any cheap PCB fab can deliver - but can you make those vias in your garage? Will a manually drilled hole with a bit of wire soldered through on both sides, or one of those pin things, fit into the space required, compatible with the expected properties of a plated-through via from any generic cheap fab house?In many cases the debate over which way is best is moot because many designs are never going to be possible to fabricate by hand.And I'm just setting my expectations at a 2-layer board, with 6/6 trace/space and 13-thou plated via drills, which is what you can easily get from OSHPark or any of the folks in China. That's not a very onerous expectation in the grand scheme of things as far as PCB fabrication is concerned. What about 4+ layers, blind vias, and the tolerances required to support high-density BGA packages? Obviously you can forget about it!But DIY fabrication can be fun, if economically debatable in some cases, in more low-density applications where you don't need very small or very closely packed vias.QuoteSome places do it, some don't. OSHPark doesn't, PCBZone doesn't, Hackvana does, etc.Check with the people you're using, ask them if they usually do this. Request if it is possible to say no. Or if all else fails just go somewhere else if it really upsets you.

author: PeteJM
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 03:38:53 pm
content: Quote from: LukeW on March 21, 2014, 06:14:02 amCorrect me if I am wrong, but I think the reason OSHPark and PCBZone dont is because the boards are made in huge panels instead of smaller one of jobs and then chopped out. The huge panel is probably marked with info, but the small boards would just be a waste.

author: MatCat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 04:57:41 pm
content: When I get vscored panels from elecrow they only put their marking once on a panel, therefor only one board gets it, and they always hide it under a part so that it will never be visible once populated.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 06:50:13 pm
content: Quote from: hlavac on March 18, 2014, 11:11:48 amQFN/QFP is very doable without solder mask. Been there done that. The trick is to let the pins extend from the pads so you can solder them. I still have PCB etching gear but only use it for quick prototypes. I have good experiences with Seeedstudio if it has to be cheap. For commercial purposes I order PCBs from a quick turnaround service.

author: gxti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 08:57:16 pm
content: Quote from: LukeW on March 21, 2014, 06:14:02 amHackvana also lets you suggest a place to put it, and even if you don't the fabs seem to be pretty smart about putting it under a big component where it wouldn't be seen in the end product.

author: cravenhaven
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 11:11:48 pm
content: Quote from: MatCat on March 18, 2014, 08:55:09 pmI hope you can excuse my ignorance, but what is the purpose of the stencil?.Allan

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 11:25:44 pm
content: Quote from: cravenhaven on March 21, 2014, 11:11:48 pmSolderpaste application.

author: Fank1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 11:49:29 pm
content: On the less dense boards, I route mine with a Zen CNC machine.For a small board 10 min. add another 5 min if its conventional parts and you have to let it drill the holes.Not cheap, but you can't beat it for fast.