Aluminum electrolytic caps for audio - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: IvoS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 11:10:02 pm
content: Is this statement true?http://www.elna.co.jp/en/capacitor/alumi/catalog/pdf/rfs_e.pdfWhat are the most important properties of aluminum capacitor if the cap stands in audio signal path?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 11:30:24 pm
content: This must be a practical joke. Better close this tread closely!

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 11:33:17 pm
content: QuoteYep.... because the paper has to bend to let all those electrons through!

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 11:46:01 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on September 02, 2013, 11:18:41 pmYep. Time to make some popcorn!

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 11:48:31 pm
content: I have achieved below 0.001% distortion using bog-standard Panasonic FC (low ESR general application) + 100n 0603 ceramic in parallel. Microphonics from ceramics really aren't as much as an issue as others make out. This was a headphone amp though, I can't vouch for a louder amplifier which might actually get feedback from the speaker. I could not measure below 0.001%, did not have good enough equipment. So it could be, and probably was better.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 11:53:29 pm
content: Quote from: IvoS on September 02, 2013, 11:10:02 pmVoltage rating... capacitance... polarization... ESR if it's passing current.... leakage current if that will upset bias.... temperature rating if it's near something hot... All the usual properties.

author: IvoS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 11:59:52 pm
content: Thanks "c4757p" for concrete answer.

author: lewis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 12:00:48 am
content: Quote from: IvoS on September 02, 2013, 11:10:02 pmYes, absolutely. I can easily hear the difference between an Elna capacitor and a Panasonic. It's to do with the capacitor's resistance to 'Heliostatic Electron Distortion'. This is a very well known phenomenon that causes electrons to change their spin when opposing each other across a dielectric. This can cause a delay in the electron flow on the other side of the capacitor plate, noticeably affecting the phase of the audio signal, especially at high frequencies. This can muddy the sound of cymbals and other percussion.This is sometimes incorrectly called 'Tired Electron Distortion', but this refers to a very different phenomenon where charge flow is slowed permanently by imperfections in the crystalline structure of the conductor. This causes reduced tempo and in some cases can lead to changes in the sound akin to allowing the platter of a record player to slow to a full stop.Elna Capacitors are much less prone to HED and TED and therefore sound better, but what you really want is one of these:http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/duelund_cast.html. The 40uF one is only £1778 each, I've used 1000 of these in parallel for each rail of a power amp and it sounded very nice indeed.So in short, yes, there is definitely an appreciable difference, but the solder used to connect to the capacitor does make much more of a difference, so the discussion is kind of moot.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 12:03:41 am
content: You are surprisingly skilled in creative bullshit, Lewis. Have you considered management?Quote*vomits uncontrollably*

author: IvoS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 12:06:59 am
content: Lot of people have knowledge but don't want to share, there is nothing wrong with it, but I admire the time someone takes to create such a BS.

author: IvoS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 12:10:54 am
content: well,.... I know these are probably good decoupling capshttp://www.farnell.com/datasheets/525219.pdfbut what would happen if I use this kind of cap of ...say 22uF as an output cap in my preamplifier?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 12:14:50 am
content: Audiophool teritory... if there are suckers then there are scammers taking advantage...

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 12:17:23 am
content: Quote from: IvoS on September 03, 2013, 12:10:54 amThey would work perfectly. And only indistinguishably better than the cheapest 1uF film* cap you can find. Don't waste your money. And for Christ's sake don't use them for decoupling... decoupling caps in analog audio circuits can be complete poo and still work...*I don't like putting polarized caps on inputs and outputs, just as a general consequence of liking robust connections. You could use a bipolar aluminum, but they're somewhat specialized.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 12:59:09 am
content: Quotereally ELNA ? you are off the list for any design i will do. i throw you in the same bucket as shaxon an other shitcap manufactureres. SHAME ON YOU !

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 01:45:11 am
content: Lots of audiofoolery bs on the datasheet, but...QuoteIf true, that is really, really good. But then, if you are pushing 0.1A AC trough an electrolytic in an audio application, you are doing it wrong.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 08:32:44 am
content: Quote from: lewis on September 03, 2013, 12:00:48 amLead-free solder and ROHS components sound best unless you listen to heavy metal.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 08:39:52 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 03, 2013, 12:59:09 amVishay put out the same kind of marketing bullshit for some of their resistors and Analog Devices is also guilty of audiophoolery, claiming that a JFET input stage to an op-amp sounds superior to a BJT one - a "special" section in the OPA604 datasheet IIRC.EDIT: it was the OPA604, but by Burr Brown.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 11:06:08 am
content: Here it is (the Vishay resistors):http://www.vishaypg.com/docs/63140/var.pdf"Many experiments have been done to show why some resistors are “noisier” than others. But the only test that audio experts and audiophiles have agreed on is comparing the level of fidelity that results when different resistor technologies are used in actual audio systems..............""The VAR, composed of Vishay’s Bulk Metal®Z-foil technology,with improved sound quality, provides a combination of low noise and low inductance/capacitance, making it unrivalled for applications requiring low noise and distortion-free properties."

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 11:20:10 am
content: OPA275 datasheet by AD:http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/data_sheets/OP275.pdf"Excellent Sonic Characteristics""The OP275 is the first amplifier to feature the Butler Amplifierfront end. This new front end design combines both bipolarand JFET transistors to attain amplifiers with the accuracy andlow noise performance of bipolar transistors, and the speed andsound quality of JFETs."Incidentally, besides the claims made in the datasheet, the OPA275 is a rather mediocre performer, with much poorer linearity than the ancient an much cheaper NE5532. It's noise performance isn't anything to write home about either. It also suffers rather acutely from common mode input distortion, which indicates a substandard input stage, rather than a uniquely superior one.Perhaps the author of the OPA275 datasheet was trying to compete with the guy at BB who wrote page 12 of this op-amp datasheet:http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa604.pdf

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 12:05:37 pm
content: Nichicon also has some "dubious" claims in their datasheets:FG series:"Fine Gold" MUSE acoustic series suited for high grade audio equipment, using state of the art etching techniques.Rich sound in the bass register and clearer high end,most suited for AV equipment like DVD, MD.But ELNA is the real bullshitter here... here's another exampleROA series (pdf prevents copy paste... idiots):what's funny is that right after this series in the catalogue they have other audio series in which they mention the leads are "copper clad steel" ... i guess they care so much about quality (or the leads matter so much that) they can afford to lose quality by going with steel instead of copper to save pennies.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 12:29:01 pm
content: From an old article of an electronics magazine which measured different cap types for audio (best first):1. KP, MKP, Styroflex (I think PTFE would be fine too)2. MKT, KC, MC3. electrolytic caps and tantalsNo surprises at all!

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 01:46:17 pm
content: Its mainly the bad language in the elna datasheet that ticks me off... Badly translated.Makes a dream of ... Relieve the vibration energy... Chinglish... Not expected from a company like elna....I know panasonic has special 'audio' caps . They were co designed by pioneer. They actually have the pioneer logo printed on the cap. Its is a specific few values in a squat box that happens to have a very low esr and to be used as the main tank cap after the rectifier. The cap jas excellent peak current and ripple current handling capability. But they dont make those 'wooly' claims avout it. They stay purely technical in their datsheet. It is merely a ver good cap. Like 15000 uf 63 volt or something like that. Snap in , squat and large diameter with two terminals per electrode for mecha ical stability on the pcb.

author: M0BSW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 02:00:35 pm
content: I'm following this one with interest Capacitors, Resistors, cheap multi meters, this may go for a while, may need to get some supplies in and coffee.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 02:11:06 pm
content: Using good caps for the PSU is essential and not audiofoolery :-) But putting electrolytics in the signal path is a rather bad idea. Ok, you got one for a single power rail amp (for the output DC decoupling, low-quality audio amp anyway :-) and some biploar ones in the filters for the speakers, but please don't add any more!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 02:11:24 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 03, 2013, 12:59:09 amI have a feeling ELNA's name has "been taken in vain!"

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 02:20:28 pm
content: Quote from: M0BSW on September 03, 2013, 02:00:35 pmAnd after that you'll have to go to the gym to get rid of the extra pounds

author: kfitch42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 02:47:20 pm
content: QuoteLets keep this SFW folks!

author: M0BSW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 02:54:55 pm
content: Quote from: madires on September 03, 2013, 02:20:28 pmyou have a very good point, I should get a large hamster wheel connect it to a generator to power the computer and do a lot of running,win win situation