GTX 1070 - no video - underfill issue? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: Oogway
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2017, 03:38:30 pm
content: Hello all,Purchased a Zotac GTX 1070 off of craigslist, popped it into my computer and received no signal on monitor. Original seller not responding, so warranty replacement is out of the question.Before Listing what i've done, here is the build.Motherboard: Asus P6T WS ProCPU: Xeon X5650 - Overclocked to 4.25GHZCPU cooler (FWIW): Scythe Mugen 5GPU: Zotac GTX 1070RAM: GSkill Ripjaws Z series DDR3 2400 F3-2400C10D-8GZHPower Supply: Seasonic X-Series X-560 SS-560KM 560WThings i've done:Tried resetting bios via jumper for default settings - did not workUpdated to latest bios - did not workTried installing 2 different GPU's into above build( 7970 GHz Edition, and GT 220 ) both workedTried installing GTX 1070 in different computer - did not workTried moving GPU to other 2 PCIE lanes on motherboard - did not workReflowed via Linus Tech Tips video - WORKED for 3 days, even through stress testing it with furmark and uniengine, then died on the 3rd day trying to run Planet Coaster. Temps never going above 60C even with stress testing.Objective thoughtsBefore trying to reflow I noticed while starting the computer up the GPU fans did not spin ( normal in working conditions i guess ) and the heat pipes were room temp and had no noticeable heat change, even after leaving the computer on for 20 minutes.After trying to reflow and after it failed, i noticed if i turn it off, wait 10 minutes, turn it on, it comes on for maybe 10 seconds and then shuts off as if card isn't there.I've taken it apart a few times to give everything a good cleaning via alcohol and q-tips. No raises or deformation on any capacitors or other modules that i can seeAbout me: Not a professional, i've dabbled with soldering (capacitors and such ) with repairing LCD monitors. Have a cheap multi-meter but not to saavy with it, only used to troubleshoot and fix issues with my 3d printer. Curious enough to do my own research, but feel i need to reach out for this one!Lastly, yes i've seen the Louis Rossman videos explaining how reflowing is bull****, after hearing of his video i began to investigate the possibility of an underfill issue and that's where i am now.Any help is appreciated.Thank you

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 07, 2017, 04:46:02 pm
content: I doubt you ever melted the solder, and if you did, your card most likely would be irreparably destroyed in the first place.

author: Oogway
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2017, 04:51:51 pm
content: No not hot enough to melt solder, 196C for 8 minutes is what I cooked it for.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 07, 2017, 04:53:46 pm
content: I have not heard about any significant underfill issues in recent Nvidia GPUs. But you could try to heat the GPU alone, with, say, hairdryer at max temp setting. If it starts to work, 99% chance that GPU is faulty.

author: Oogway
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2017, 05:09:46 pm
content: Gotchya, If i did find out that it was a defective GPU chip. Would it be safe to say the issue is mostly likely an underfill issue?

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2017, 12:46:22 pm
content: bad Nvidia GPUs (G84 - G9x, and to lesser degree chips up to GF1xx) died after ~1-2 years of cookingthis is not it, this might be factory defective chip that was marginal from the start - unfixableor bad solder contact somewhere that got temporarily fixed by thermally deformed pcb -take off radiator, try starting the card while squeezing gpu/individual memory chips between your fingers(unless you have pcie extender, then you can lay card flat and press on chips), obviously be ready to cut power immediately in case it starts, same with power connectors, power regulator etc. Measuring if there are any shorts in power section + checking fuses wouldnt hurt(probably wouldnt help either since you wrote it starts for few seconds)

author: Oogway
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2017, 03:00:59 pm
content: Hey Rasz,I tried a few times to apply pressure to gpu and start up but it did not work. Will try the memory chips and see how that goes. I'll also check if there is a short on the board, i'll do my research to figure out how to do that properly.

author: Oogway
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2018, 02:57:51 am
content: Hey guys, still no luck with GPU after squeezing each memory module. Thinking it might be a bad solder connection. Would explain why baking it temporarily worked.Can anyone think of anything else? Thanks

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2018, 05:47:24 am
content: Quote from: cleaningOut on May 01, 2018, 04:27:51 amYes, that's the repair technique I was thinking of.

author: Bashstreet
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2018, 09:24:18 am
content: Used in crypto mining and cooked...

author: mbless
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2018, 12:49:06 pm
content: Quote from: Bashstreet on May 01, 2018, 09:24:18 amLesson learned about buying electronics off Craigslist without seeing it working

author: Oogway
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 02:53:06 am
content: Yes, definitely lesson learned. As for this card. It's weird it would work for a few days, even after stress testing twice. Hoping there is something else i can do. Any other thoughts guys?

author: SaabFAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 10:59:12 am
content: Rip off all the components you can and get the remaining piece of PCB to a recycling center.Then use the components to build something funI doubt that you'll be able to squeeze any more life out of the card without completely desoldering the chips and reballing them. And even if you do that, there's a high chance the GPU itself is defective.I've bought a High-End PC-Component on ebay exactly once. Was defective (of course), but I managed to get the seller to take it back. After that, Graphics Cards, CPUs and Mainboards (and since DDR4 RAMs too - They can kill mainboards and CPUs!!!!) only new from reputable stores. Too many black sheep on ebay.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 12:11:22 pm
content: Quote from: Oogway on May 13, 2018, 02:53:06 amThat is not weird. Look up Louis Rossman's epic rant videos on these flip-chip BGA designs that people attempt to "repair" by "reflowing" or reballing them (like you did).Here is the original rant (terrible and LOUD audio and a LOT of profanity, but he is spot on):Then you will understand that your "repair" only melted the underfill, the cracked solder bumpsinsidethe chip (not the ones under it!) make contact for a short while again and the card seems to work for a few days - until the thermal stresses break the connection again. This isn't repairable, you need to replace it.Worse, it is completely possible that the GPU itself wasn't a problem to start with but some other component on the board (e.g. voltage regulators). But now your GPU is possibly screwed up too because you have heated it.And, please, don't watch "Linus Tech Tips" for repair guidance - that guy is a fool who often has no clue whatsoever about what he is talking about. The epic rant from Louis above has actually been in response to Linus' "reflow repair" video. Another major stupidity I recall from Linus was him buying some expensive CPUs for low price from a dodgy eBay seller - and then being surprised that he got scammed ...

author: Oogway
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 06:41:23 pm
content: yea ebay is safe, cuz paypal and such. Suppose i'll try a few other things. Thanks

author: Oogway
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 06:43:40 pm
content: Everything you said has been understood since post 1. I even mention rossmans video... Thank you for the reply though.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 07:56:59 pm
content: Quote from: Oogway on May 13, 2018, 06:43:40 pmIf it was understood, then why are you asking about "squeezing memory modules" and "underfill issue" then? If anything, that shows that you haven't understood the problem and still think it was a cracked solder joint somewhere. Never mind that baking it would not fix that because you didn't heat it enough for the solder to actually melt - Louis talks about that too.And then there was that guy talking about having to "reball" the chips tooBut I digress, I guess you have learned your lesson.

author: Oogway
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 12:14:01 am
content: I only asked about squeezing the memory modules because another member mentioned I should try it. The under fill issue was squared away when that same member mentioned the newer gen GPU's being unlikely to have that issue.All I was asking for was some additional input. There was no need to be rude.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 05:43:55 am
content: you can always replace all capacitors, they are very heat sensitive

author: EHT
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 08:23:13 pm
content: I wonder if the failure rate of these GPUs is high, or maybe its just that an awful lot of them are sold so there are a large number of failed GPUs? I doubt NVidia care if the reliability is a sub substandard since they pretty much have a monopoly and they know you'll just buy a new one.Quote from: Oogway on May 13, 2018, 06:41:23 pmBit off topic, but if this was purchased on eBay as "used" rather than "spares or repairs" then I believe eBay does protect you and you can get a refund via eBay even if the seller says no refunds, because the item is not as described. I managed to do this once (item was incomplete and stated it was in New condition).Most dodgy items i see are listed as "Spares or Repairs" and then say "Untested". I had some guy selling a network switch insist that he didnt have a mains lead to just plug it in and tell me if the lights came on.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 09:21:29 pm
content: Quote from: EHT on May 18, 2018, 08:23:13 pmThere are a lot of them and some series are better than other. E.g. the 9xx series was known to cook itself to death after some time. Usually just about around when the warranty ended. I got mine to die on me after some 20 months - fortunately we have the 2 years mandatory warranty so the shop had to replace it and I got a GTX 1060 instead.Nvidia likely cares because if the cards are bad the returns are going to hurt their bottom line. On the other hand, they know that few keep the cards beyond the 2-3 years (a 1 year old GPU tends to be morally obsolete already), so they aren't really manufacturing them to last for much longer than that. Then there is also the varying quality between OEMs that actually integrate the GPUs onto cards - a lot of "failed GPUs" are not really faulty themselves but something else on the board has failed - often because of poorly designed cooling and/or the user literally running the card into ground (cryptominers ...)E.g. my GTX 970 above has died because because something has failed around the voltage regulators once the board started to get warm - around 60C GPU core temp (which is nothing for the GPU) the board would crash or turn off. Reboot the machine, let it cool off and it worked again until the card warmed up. Bam, hard freeze, card dead again. Lather rinse repeat ... Apparently a very common problem on the 960/970 from many vendors - the VRMs were overheating even when the core itself didn't and started to cut out after some time (likely because of dodgy/cooked capacitors).eBay and the whole used hw market is a yet another mess - there are also tons of bad and dodgy cards sold by crypto miners these days. Typically after running them at close to full power 24/7 for a long time with poor cooling.

author: Oogway
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 01:35:58 am
content: Thanks for the idea Rasz, going to take a multi meter to the capacitors and see what i get.

author: Oogway
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2018, 03:17:55 pm
content: No way, that's how i ended up in this mess. I couldn't go through with it knowing it's faulty....unless of course gamestop accepts GPU trades...those crooks!Anyways, ordering up replacement capacitors now. I no doubt probably fried some when putting it in the oven. Going with some premo low esr Panasonics. Wish me luck! Over a year and finally trying to fix this thing again.I thought about emailing the craigslister that sold it to me, thanking him for the deal and telling him it only cost me $18 to fixthat is...if this does fix it!

author: Oogway
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 04:35:04 pm
content: Hey again,So this card basically sat in a closet for almost 3 years. Pulled it back out to replace caps because I had some time for a project.I'm having an issue removing the old caps though, the solder won't melt and free up the pin. I'm using a Weller 9400PKS soldering gun. Gets up to 482C, but still not melting the solder. Using a flat end tip.I'm now looking into upgrading my soldering iron, but since this weller was 140 watts, idk if buying something like this will help since it's only 70 wattshttps://www.amazon.com/Hakko-FX888D-23BY-Digital-Soldering-Station/dp/B00ANZRT4M/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=hakko+soldering+station&qid=1625415956&s=hi&sr=1-4Anyways, I'm assuming my weller must not be a quality tool at only $30, and it may not be getting to the temps it says it can. That must be the reason I can't desolder these caps. Any thoughts?

author: Oogway
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 05:58:38 pm
content: Ended up buying this insteadhttps://www.banggood.com/KSGER-T12-STM32-V3_1S-Welding-Soldering-Iron-Station-OLED-DIY-Plastic-Handle-Electric-Tools-Quick-Heating-T12-Iron-Tips-8s-Tins-907-9501-Handle-with-3Pcs-T12-Tips-p-1695566.html?cur_warehouse=USA&ID=514179Hope it's better than what I have currently!!

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 06:01:00 pm
content: Your Weller is alright, but not for electronics. As the product description states,QuoteIf you want to do electronics, get a temperature-controlled iron. In your present project, the capacitors may be connected to large ground planes, requiring to be heated for a while at full power to get them up to the solder's melting temperature. But then the power needs to be dialled back, to avoid damaging the PCB. That's what closed-loop temperature control is for.Having said that, I'd suggest you toss that graphics card. Who knows what agonies the original owner has it put through; and you know whatyouhave put it through three years ago...EDIT: Yep, the KSGER you just bought is a better choice for electronics.Now on to the next step, dump that graphics card.

author: Oogway
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 06:07:59 pm
content: Welcome back ebastlerIf it's already toast, no harm in practicing with my newly ordered iron!Should get delivered in a week, I'll post back on result for kicks and giggles. Though...it might be a few years