Post your price gouging examples - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 05:45:40 am
content: Lets see who can find the greatest multiplier factor between what something should reasonably cost, and actual over the counter cost.I'd like to exclude cases where ebay sellers put an absurd price on a one-off, in the hope some fool will buy it. Or where sellers are out of stock, so set a ridiculously high price so they can leave the listing up, without having to worry about any awkward sales. So please limit examples to things you may actually have to pay the asked price because there's no other source and you need it, and there is stock.I'll start. Just returned from buying a few electrical things I needed, from the local JR Turk (an Australian electrical wholesaler.) In my workshop I use the Clipsal 2000 series of switch wall plates, mainly because there are clip-in cat-5 connectors so you can use them for networking ports. I needed a couple more of the wall plates, two 16A circuit breakers, and one little neon indicator that clips into the series 2000 wall plates.Result: the neon light cost around $30, approximately the same as all the other items together. Considering the body is pretty much exactly the same molding as the standard rocker switches, which have more metal parts but cost about $10, how is this reasonable? If the neon unit was made in China it would cost less than $2 imported.It's particularly outrageous considering that the neon costs five times each of the circuit breakers, given the complex precision manufacture and much greater amount of materials in them.Clipsal havealwayspriced their products higher than competitors, and that's presumably why they are slowly going out of business. But this is the worst example I've personally encountered so far.JRTurk would also have a fairly high markup, but you'd think it would be similar on the wall plates. In fact the guy at the counter had originally said the neon was around $35 when I asked, and then gave me a discount when I complained about the price. So that $29.51 isafterdiscount.Unfortunately this was something I needed, and today. Hacking a panel-mount neon from the junk box into the wall plate would look crappy. So no alternative but to pay - between 3 to 10 times a fair price.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 06:21:00 am
content: Electrical wholesalers aren't really interested in selling to end users, their market is the licensed electrician to whom they give serious discounts.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 09:07:26 am
content: Clipsal are a rip. But i know people who wont trust hpm. Ive been told the trade price (must mean bulk) are substantial savings. I think buying these things in one offs is why you get burnt.Ive been lied to, ignored, just rude when I went to Middy's on two occasions, before swearing never again. Having said that, Ive received friendly, interested customer service when buying bits from Titan.I should point out im not an electrician, so no real business in these stores. But then again, no one can explain why bunnings sell switches, wall plates, etc to anyone off the street.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 09:33:17 am
content: How about this as a little gem?Before you look at the web page, it's a switch tester for testing Assisted Communication for use by people with motor skill disabilities - here's the description:The quick and easy way to test your switches before beginning work with them.* Simply plug the switch into the socket and the orange LED will light to indicate power-up* Press the switch and the green LED lights to indicate the switch is fully functional. Unplug the switch and the Test-IT! powers down.* Tests any switch with a 3.5mm jack plug* Lightweight and portable* Battery operated, with an extremely long battery lifeYes, that's battery box, a switched mono 3.5mm socket, two LEDs, and a two resistors.Now have a look at the price on the bottom ofhttp://www.spectronicsinoz.com/product/test-it

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 10:13:01 am
content: Quote from: hamster_nz on June 10, 2014, 09:33:17 am... and design, procurement, assembly, testing, advertising, packaging, postage, taxes, and a profit margin that makes the time spent producing it worthwhile. For an extremely low volume product, it really doesn't matter much what's in the box, the cost is all in the overheads.At the opposite end of the volume scale, I'd like to nominate printer cartridges. Especially the ones which contain a chip that makes them harder to clone and/or refill.Same goes for batteries too. How, for example, can a genuine Canon battery be £65 when a reputable 3rd party equivalent (Energizer) is £26, and no-name copies can be had for just £6? Given the safety issue with poor quality lithium batteries, it's irresponsible to encourage people to buy dodgy, unknown alternatives by price gouging IMHO.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 10:44:06 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on June 10, 2014, 10:13:01 amNot a valid example IMHO, everybody knows that with inkjet printers the marketing is reversed, you get the printer for less than it costs and they make the money with the cartridges. The same goes for the old XBOX360 and PS3 which were in the beginning sold with loss.Nowadays even carsales are going that way, the garage makes only a few % on the sale of the car it self, not even leveling out the hours that it cost to sell it, but earning on their high labourcosts tag with each service.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 11:00:13 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on June 10, 2014, 10:13:01 amA wiseman answered that question earlier, with this:QuoteAll the examples listed here are people's expecting others to not make a living so they can live in comfort.We live in a free market. As long as you had a choice but still decided to be "gouged", you have nobody else but yourself to blame.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 11:01:29 am
content: $860 for a software update to software to mandate a usb anti-piracy dongle, with no other changes made, dongle sold separately, arguably it was very low volume, but if your already cloning software, wouldn't they think mandating a 3rd party device with no new features or bug fixes in the software increase the copies interest?another one was the older 5200 series VDO in car navigation units, what our suppliers could have given us as a price would have made them sell like hot cakes, but now as they have half a warehouse full of them, and they are well past obsolete, they have been defeated by there own stubbornness,

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 12:35:21 pm
content: I was looking for a through hole .48 ohm resistor to fix an old radio shack analog multimeter. Digikey had them, $5.38 each, minimum order 100.I might have to make do with mouser using a .953 stacked on a .976 in 1206 for 30 cents each.

author: jlmoon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 01:26:46 pm
content: QuoteNot to mention, we are all in charge of our own spending and whether we desire to dig into our wallets or not. I have found that price is relative to desire or demand!

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 02:32:30 pm
content: Exactly.Everyone should have the freedom to charge whatever prices, however high or low, s/he wants for his/her products and services. High prices ("gouging") will attract more supply and investment to product that product which in turn will alleviate the high prices. That's just how a free market works.Price controls will only make matter worse, over the long term.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 02:40:41 pm
content: I agree that pricecontrolsare wrong. I will still, however, continue to shame people who ridiculously overcharge for things.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 02:57:24 pm
content: Quote"ridiculously" and "overcharge" are highly subjective: to your employers, you have "ridiculously overcharged" for your services as I am sure they would be happy to pay you less if you would allow.Let everyone charge whatever they want. If you find it "gouging", go somewhere else.That's the basic mechanism for a free market to regulate prices.

author: N TYPE
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 03:02:50 pm
content: If you go to an electrical wholesaler (In Australia or New Zealand) and they give you a trade price; you're getting ripped off.Trade minus 20 to 50 percent is the norm for registered sparkies and account holders.Bunnings only sell HPM gear if i remember correctly some of the HPM stuff is alright but the switch gear is junk IMO. Clipsal is nice gear but PDL really is the ducks nuts.We all know that something is only worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. You could've jumped on ebay and bought yourself a $2 neon from china and had it in 3 weeks but for convenience you forked out the cash for the component because you needed it there and then.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 03:13:37 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 10, 2014, 02:57:24 pmWhich only works if a) "somewhere" elseactuallyexists and b) you can "go there". Another valuable means against overcharging is complaining about the price and negotiation. The former is the objective of this thread, so go advocate for a free marked somewhere else!Personally, I find professional solder fume extractors pretty over charged. $600 for technology that can be found in every vacuum cleaner? You can call me ignorant and I might be missing something, but everything I can build on my own for (including my hourly wage) less money than a company charges is overpriced.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 03:24:26 pm
content: In built car sat-navs. where if you want it it costs another £500 to £800 depending on whether you have UK of Europe wide fitted. The car comes as standard fitted with the antenna for the sat-nav and all that is done if you get the optional sat-nav is someone sticks a CD into the cars cd player and the inbuilt radio then becomes a sat nav as well, you can buy a sat nav for £50-00 and the software to install the sat nave availability into the car can be freely downloaded on the internet, that is if you want an in car annoyance machine.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 03:48:10 pm
content: Quote from: N TYPE on June 10, 2014, 03:02:50 pmActually I doubt I could have found a neon from China. if I thought I could, the wait would have been bearable. It can't be just any neon, since wall switch plates from different manufacturers tend to have different profile holes. The Clipsal 2000 series is one of the 'different' ones, and other clip-in modules don't fit it.That's the main reason for buying it despite the ripoff. And what makes it price gouging - Clipsal know that if you need a neon to go in those plates, they've got you.It's the contrast between the price of the different items vs their manufacturing cost that really rubs it in.Since someone brought up 'price controls' - no, I'm not in favor of that. The idea is both immoral (loss of freedoms) and unworkable overall, as the social overhead of the bureaucracy required to manage a system of price controls is ridiculous. And will always grow worse over time. (Much the same as taxation.)

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 03:52:47 pm
content: McMaster-Carr has a huge selection of hardware and probably the best website on the internet when it comes to finding exactly the part you need as quickly as possible, and generally their prices are quite reasonable on such things. However, someone there has apaprently realized that since they're already an approved vendor at many large companies with cumbersome purchasing systems people will gladly pay $20 for a small pack of paper plates rather than fight with their purchasing department over a $5 receipt from the local grocery.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 03:57:46 pm
content: UK motorway service stations are the only thing I occasionally get caught with. One of my cars only has a 200 mile range, somewhat less if driven spiritedly and I occasionally drive it further than that.

author: BennyBoy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 04:10:39 pm
content: Most swiss watches. I've seen TAG's go for $1500. with a $12. movement. Thats a mild example.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 04:20:14 pm
content: Quote from: ajb on June 10, 2014, 03:52:47 pmDamn you remind me why I'm so happy to be retired from such a large company.Getting something purchased from other then an 'approved source' was near impossible at my prior company. The figure we were told that any single purchase order carried a $50 'overhead' expense.Eventually they wised up to the hidden costs and lost productivity this caused so they decided in the mid 90s that they would issue all individuals above a certain position/pay grade a 'Pro-card' which was a Visa card that was issued to individuals where the billing statement went to the employee every month and you had to attach all receipts and get your supervisor to approve all the months purchases and forward for payment by the company.Of course within a year or so they found so much fraud being done that they took all the cards back. It was great for awhile but I blame the supervisors for not performing their part of the process that made all the fraud so easy to get away with.Of course around the same time I read that the U.S. Pentagon had tried the same thing and also had to take back the cards after a while, just too hard to prevent dishonest people taking advantage of it.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 04:39:41 pm
content: I just replaced a Clipsal outlet, which had done the usual thing and died from being used at rated current. The older ones were usable, but the new ones are junk. Replaced with a Crabtree that might be better, but I have doubts on that. I have often just bought the complete wall plate just to get the clip in switch as it often was cheaper.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 05:00:12 pm
content: QuoteBy that token, any software engineer or architect or hardware designer charging more than a penny or so for their output is gouging.

author: BennyBoy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 05:03:40 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 10, 2014, 05:00:12 pmSorry, but I don't see any correlation.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 05:08:43 pm
content: If you think charging more than the hardware is worth is gouging, in the case of a watch, charging for software (=non-hardware) is gouging too.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 05:14:09 pm
content: If you want to live in a society that encourages innovation, you have to be willing to pay dearly for innovation (which today means increasingly non-tangible things). In the case of a watch, it is the brand, prestige, marketing, R&D, and workmanship ... that you are paying.Just as you pay dearly so for your iPhone and to some extend chips too: you are paying so someone finds it worthwhile to invest their time / efforts to find newer / better ways of doing things. The hardware "costs" in many cases are minor and irrelevant.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 05:25:29 pm
content: One non-electronics related example I can think of is that many aiports have a gas station at the entrance that is around 50% above the normal going rate in the area. Their thinking is if you have rented a car and forgot to fill the tank completely or just need to top it off so it shows full before turning it in, that you'd rather pay the higher than normal rate for fuel rather than pay the penalty for returning it not full.In some places where there were no existing laws in place, the gas stations would not post fuel prices where you could see them from the road and sometimes charge up to twice the normal rate. Since then many places have passed laws requiring their prices to be visible from the road.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 05:32:45 pm
content: Think about taxes and chips.What do you get for your taxes? Can you avoid it?For your $4K Xeon chip, the packaging will cost Intel maybe $10? The die is just a bunch of sand - $2 on a good day. The bonding maybe $2? I cannot believe that they charge $4K for that.How about those professors? You get nothing tangible from your $60K+/yr tuition - nothing but empty words.How about the electric uitilities? For every electron they send your way, they get it back. And they still charge you? So unfair.No to mention gyms: you lose your time / sweat / fat there. And they charge you for losing? Negative return....If we had insisted on paying just for hardware, we would still be living in caves.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 05:49:55 pm
content: Let's not forget that Johnny the software guy.He basically rearranged a bunch of alphabets on a piece of paper and turn it in. How much would that cost? A quarter for the paper and maybe a dime for the alphabets? I think even that is severely overpaying him.Dick the redneck, on the other hand, built us a new grill that we can drink beers around. That's worth something serious.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 06:29:24 pm
content: This is why we have a marketplace and capitalistic systems. In this global market you are only as ripped off as you are lazy enough to not go find a better deal! Obviously at a certian point you are trading off from a consumer point of view price vs. availability, quality, and convenience (Why drive all over town burning fuel to get a slightly lower price) and from a manufacturer/distributor point of view you have to make enough money to be worth while, but there are obvious instances where somebody just does not care and is looking for either a fool or a desperate person. Otherwise, just keep walking. You can always buy it from AliExpress and wait for it, and hope you don't get ripped off, if price is your only concern.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 07:03:09 pm
content: $312 for this piece of metalhttp://www.techni-tool.com/821SO1470Compare with a set of 9 different nozzles for $30http://www.ebay.com/itm/9pcs-Nozzles-850-Hot-Air-Station-for-Mobile-Phone-BGA-/171275123706?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27e0cafbfa

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 07:04:13 pm
content: QuoteWell said.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 07:37:44 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on June 10, 2014, 07:03:09 pmYes, why is that?

author: jlmoon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 08:33:36 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on June 10, 2014, 07:03:09 pmThose look like old Junk PCV valve hulls reworked in a different shape and a little spit shine added for appeal.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 09:02:57 pm
content: Hakko isn't the only one that has huge prices for spare parts. Pretty much all of them are.Pace is just as guilty .. for example the handpiece TD100, without tip and anything extra is about 100$ :http://uk.farnell.com/pace/6010-0147-p1/handpiece-td-100-intelliheat/dp/1775286You can literally 3d print the tube, get some cable with 3 (or 4) wires and all that's problematic to create on your own is the 3 metal contacts on the tiny pcb inside (tip slides between the metal contacts guided by a channel in the plastic tube) and the custom DIN jack at the end of the cable:A new Pace ST-30 (90w station, stand, handpiece, tips, sponge , brass wool etc) is about 350$ :http://uk.farnell.com/pace/8007-0512/soldering-station-90w-230v-uk-eu/dp/1279325.. so just handpiece is 100$, handpiece + stand is about 200$, sponge is about 10$ separately..Hakko charges the same high costs for handpiece, stand etc etc ... for Hakko it's almost cheaper to buy a whole new unit.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 09:15:44 pm
content: QuotePretty much with anything, it is more costly to buy parts than to buy a fully assembled unit, from aircraft engines to cars to bicycles.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 09:27:46 pm
content: Quote from: BennyBoy on June 10, 2014, 04:10:39 pmhttp://professionalwatches.com/2011/08/urwerk-ur-1001-pocket-watch.html$400,000.00 US

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 09:28:31 pm
content: http://www.newark.com/itt-cannon/ct120090-102/insertion-tool-mdsm-connector/dp/34R7399?ost=1760384Which is a cheap hypodermic needle with half the tube ground away at the end and a screw blocking the hole for the nozzle.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 09:35:33 pm
content: Quote from: deth502 on June 10, 2014, 09:27:46 pmThere is a point at which one can only stop and look on with utter bewilderment.

author: andtfoot
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 09:39:55 pm
content: http://au.rs-online.com/web/p/lan-test-equipment-accessories/0134437/Which are just a dozen resistors, half a dozen caps, and a couple of diodes in each.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 09:49:43 pm
content: QuoteBecause it has no (sufficient) value to you at that price.Other may say the same thing about your paying $2K for a scope.That's why "value" is subjective.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 10:06:37 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on June 10, 2014, 07:03:09 pmand the funniest part is that you can get along without that fancy square nozzle - actually it makes no sense at all to use it. - the hot air will blow everywhere around the part exactly like with the round nozzle (and usually you get few round nozzles with the unit).just use the round nozzle and if you're overly concerned about heating the adjacent parts then 4 strips of kapton tape is the solution

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 10:17:54 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 10, 2014, 09:49:43 pmIf the scope was no better than a $1K scope, they'd be correct. And while I'm no timepiece connoisseur, I'd love to hear about the benefits of a watch almost three orders of magnitude past where many people would place the knee point of diminishing returns for such a product.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 10:22:13 pm
content: For the same reason some of us have 8-1/2 digit DMMs, 12-digit counters, 1Ghz scopes etc. O0

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 10:24:30 pm
content: QuotePick up an Econ 101 book;Or google giffen goods.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 10:38:40 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on June 10, 2014, 10:06:37 pmAnother alternative would be to DIY shields out of a thin sheet of metal, such as a disposable aluminum pie plate or roasting pan.

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 11:27:29 pm
content: I came across a datasheet for a part the other day (see attached) that bragged about its high price.I'm sure there was just something lost in translation. I thought it was pretty funny anyway. Especially considering they aren't terribly cheap parts--about $5 in one-off quantities.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 11:35:41 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 10, 2014, 11:14:18 pmLongest lasting I've ever owned is a Victorinox Swiss Army watch, and it's even older (1990 IIRC as a gift), followed by a Seiko I have (1999/2000).That said, I also have an entry level TAG automatic bought in 1992 as well. Still going, and no batteries to bother with, and I don't feel gouged on this one either.

author: BennyBoy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 01:06:59 am
content: I'm happy for you. But I'll stick with Seiko Automatics, as they tend to last over 20 years, and almost never need service.I changed the battery in my friends TAG, and I did a search for the movement, to find it cost a little under $12. He payed $1500. from Costco, I did not tell him about the movement, as he's a good friend. Like you, he's in watch bliss with his TAG. I rebuild watches as a hobby, and I like Seiko's because I find them to be the best value in watches. I pay $700. for a nice Seiko diver, and the movement Would cost me about $170. I believe that to be a fare deal, and I'm happy to spend the $700. for such a value!Quote from: nanofrog on June 10, 2014, 11:35:41 pm

author: BennyBoy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 02:25:43 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 11, 2014, 02:10:21 amIt was a Quartz movement with 3 or 4 jewels. Made by ETA. They had models as low as $6.There Automatic movements start around $135. TAG does not design there movements, just there cases. This is the case with 90% of watch brands.Even the majors like Omega and Rolex use mostly modified ETA movements. Omega has a couple of there own design, but I have not kept up with Swiss watch design over the last 10 years. Once I started working on watches, and found the Japanese movements were better in most every way, I quickly lost interest in any of the swiss watches.I do have a few Traser brand (Swiss) watches, because they look cool and have Tritium markers & hands. I payed $100.~ $400. for them, and they use $7.~$9. quartz Ronda(Swiss) movements. Here's a pic of an H3 Tactical with Fantastic lume.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 02:29:32 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 11, 2014, 02:10:21 amlast I checked, mechanical assembly for their cheaper movements. they're also not fixable and designed to be replaced as a whole module.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 02:43:44 am
content: I recently replaced a dishwasher at home because the front panel buttons (flex keypad) were broken and a replacement front panel (not including the controller) was $80. (And it was a cheap builder's grade unit that was already 7 or so years old.)Probably the biggest markup I have seen is audiofool stuff. Something as simple as an IEC power cord could be encased in a garden hose along with "pixie dust" (sand) and sell for thousands of dollars. They don't even bother to shield the wires, claiming that the "pixie dust" does that.

author: BennyBoy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 03:03:41 am
content: We have a winner! Your correct! I totally forgot about Audio-foolery. Growing up in SF,Cal. We had a few of those Hi-End audio shops. They had $15k dollar turntables, $2500. rca cables, and yes, of coarse, you can not use just any plug for that turntable! You need this 7 nines copper power cord, for only $1499.Quote from: NiHaoMike on June 11, 2014, 02:43:44 am

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 03:25:11 am
content: Quote from: jlmoon on June 10, 2014, 08:33:36 pmI am using similar cheap nozzles on my hakko hot air station and the work just fine.

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 05:35:21 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on June 10, 2014, 10:22:13 pmYes but those have a quantifiable (albeit niche) purpose.It's not like you are going to go to the World Cup and be like "excuse me i think i should time the game because i have a $400,000 watch".

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 07:58:33 am
content: How about £90.00 for a 0.3 M. XLR extension cable. That is what my wife paid for one when she bought a new electric wheel chair, the charge socket is fitted as standard in an inaccessible position but the manufacturers sell a kit to bring the charge socket up under the arm rest where they normally are.The kit consists off a 300mm cable an XLR socket and an XLR plug fitted to it plus 2 self adhesive clips and you have to fit it yourself, the whole lot can be purchased from Farnell for under £5-00 and elsewhere cheaper still.The trouble was that as my wife was buying the chair new she was convinced by the salesman that anything other than the cable sold by the company would invalidate the warranty which is BS in the UK and as far as I know in the rest of Europe as well.Pricing these days is done by what the market will stand or can be forced to pay not what it costs to produce and distribute plus a reasonable mark up.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 08:20:55 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on June 11, 2014, 07:58:33 amI think it is not that black and white.The warranty almost always specifically only guarantees normal use and factory manufacturing errors.Using a random possibly wrong cable with for instance too small diameter cable or even wrong pinout thus shorting the battery resulting in a small fire in the chair from a burning cable is definitely not part of that warranty so in that case the sales person is right.The sales person can impossibly know that your wife is married with an EE who can solder such a cable in 5 minutes for himselfI had the same discussion with the electricien checking my alarmsystem. I asked for a second sensor which he had in his car and I could buy directly for €100.- Fine. Now installing the sensor and adding it to the systems hardware and software he asked for a half hour pay.He knew I was an EE and I could do it easily myself but then he could not sign off on it in the manual thus it was an illegal sensor and the insurance company could bitch about it if some day there was a break in. So I think he was right you can't ask a professional to approve the work of an "amateur" without inspecting it even if the amateur knows what he is doing.The same goes for the chair, the company designed the cable to be 100% compliant with the chair it was tested with it etc. etc. They can't do that for every other cable out there even if it was cheaper.

author: electrophiliate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 11:26:06 am
content: Australia is the land of price gouging (and some people wonder why we buy overseas instead?) ..."When it comes to the cost of everything, America now has the type of economy Australia had 20 years ago, while price-gouging for daily purchases in Australia in my experience has become monstrous. For Australians, America has become a shopper’s paradise – and not just because of the strength of the Australian dollar. In American retailing, there is competition almost everywhere and, now that the country is struggling out of a recession, I saw an almost total absence of price-gouging."http://www.smh.com.au/travel/blogs/travellers-check/australia-land-of-the-pricegouge-20110613-1fztb.html"A parliamentary inquiry into IT pricing which heard testimonies from Apple, Microsoft and Adobe has failed to impress Australian experts."http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-12/it-price-gouging-inquiry-may-lower-prices/4624376If I recall, Fluke products generally cost at least twice as much in Australia than in the USA.I imagine some countries are worse though?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 11:30:09 am
content: QuoteThat hits the nail right on the head. Don't complain about price gouging - price gouging itself invites competition which eliminates price gouging.Complain about the shackles we put on free markets.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 11:33:11 am
content: QuoteTo take the watch example: how much is the hardware cost inside a $400 Fluke meter, or a $20K Tek scope or a $2M Agilant analyzer?For people in engineering to not recognize the engineering and innovations going into those devices is amazing, but sadly too common. With those "engineers" around, who can complain about low pay for engineering jobs?

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 03:11:38 pm
content: Not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but telelcom companies in the US. No competition. For example, I pay $40/month for 7mbps/1mbps broadband from Comcast, and used to pay another $60/month for satellite TV. and I have very little choices when it comes to this.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 03:34:26 pm
content: Quote from: echen1024 on June 11, 2014, 03:11:38 pmI have only one choice myself, living in the sticks I'm lucky to have it at all (although It was a requirement of home purchase, but still). I live on a cable trunk line, no DSL, no wireless, no fiber, no other cable provider etc. I pay $75 for 50/5.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 03:57:40 pm
content: QuoteYou have a choice of dropping the connection, you have a choice of living internet / TV free, you have a choice of living somewhere else where the connection is more available / affordable, and you certain had the choice of knowing what you stepped into, to name a few.This isn't like some bad things happening to you unforeseen or unforeseeable. We simply cannot blame others for us getting into a position where a hand is on our throat.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 04:16:26 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 11, 2014, 11:30:09 amThat hits the nail right on the head.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 04:20:12 pm
content: Quote from: echen1024 on June 11, 2014, 03:11:38 pmSome services are monopolistic by nature. There is a limit how many competing cables, electric wires and water pipes you can have in a neighborhood.

author: Melt-O-Tronic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 04:51:27 pm
content: Although several wise men have spoken up in this thread, I'll add that everything you could ever want to know about price gouging is explained in very coherent terms in Henry Hazlitt's book, "Economics In One Lesson" (http://mises.org/books/economics_in_one_lesson_hazlitt.pdf).If you paid $29 for a widget -- even if you think should have cost less -- then it was worthat least$29 to you. That assertion is proven at the moment you pay for it.Only governments can impose true price gouging. In fact it's a central theme in managed economies.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 09:19:28 pm
content: In some parts of College Station, the electricity is $40/month or so just for the service fee, plus actual use at the usual 12c/kWh or so. Going off grid would make sense except college students typically don't stay long enough to make such an arrangement cost effective. They charge a lot because they can. For the average student, it's common to pay more for the fixed service fee than actual electricity use. The "all bills paid" apartments are an even bigger ripoff at about $200/month or so above other apartments. You would have to be really unreasonable with usage just to break even, as in even leaving a 1500W space heater on 24/7 would not be enough!

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 09:54:13 pm
content: QuoteIt is a signaling problem: the frugal students would have self-selected to the "utilities not included" apartments; The only ones who would rent those "all utilities included" apartments are those who use excessive amount of electricity or they are too stupid to care about it - either way, it makes sense to price the rent accordingly.Three smart dudes won Nobel prize based on that simple observation.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 01:37:40 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 11, 2014, 10:55:18 pmi agree and disagree here. i agree that the "free market" (in the us at least, idk so much about foreign economics) is a complete fallacy at this point. the market is either flat out openly and illegaly fucked with by the govt, or secretly manipulated by private banking interests, who, for some reason, have the ability to print money as they see fit (aka "the fed")but while i will not say gouging dosent exist at all, i will say that it does not exist for long, and ill go a step further to say that gouging itself is a GOOD thing. you have a hurricane, everything is down. people have no drinking water. a guy comes in with a truck full of bottled water and gets $20 a bottle for it. yup , thats gouging. the thinig is, other see this, and want in on the action, because, well, greed is universal. so now another guy comes in with $19 bottled water. the next guy come in with $18bottled water, and so on.... there will be a lot of gouging in the first few days, but when a huge profit is seen to be possible, others will get in quickly, and competition will grow fast, and before long, the going price will be not to much over what it should be.but i said gouging is beneficial too, right?? well, those ppl who dont have water and cant survive, and are paying $20 and causing all of that gouging competition to come in.... thats getting needed resources into that area. if there were laws against "gouging" and no one could legally sell $20 bottles of water, then no one would bother trucking it in to these desperate areas. teh ppl would remain without untill the utilities came back on, which could be well after they have all died of dehydration.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 02:51:23 am
content: Quote from: deth502 on June 12, 2014, 01:37:40 amI agree with your explanation of a hypothetical situation, that geed is not good or bad in itself, just human nature. But in reality at least in the U.S. when this happens the politicians go nuts about gouging, threaten arrests, investigations, etc.So the Government ends up calling an emergence situation and takes on the task of shipping in water 'for free', but it takes twice as long and ends up costing the taxpayers 3X as much as the 'gougers' were taking.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 06:06:29 am
content: Quote from: retrolefty on June 12, 2014, 02:51:23 amGreed is the single biggest problem, we have as society.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 10:47:03 am
content: QuoteGreed is a great thing: without it, we would still be living in caves somewhere in Africa.Our issue is with people too comfortable sitting on their rear-ends and leaching off the rest of the society.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 12:32:55 pm
content: Quote from: con-f-use on June 12, 2014, 06:06:29 amExtra ordinary claims require extra ordinary evidence. Care to expound on your rather simplistic opinion. Are you just saying that the society would be fine if it just wasn't for all the humans?

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 01:38:32 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on June 10, 2014, 10:13:01 amThe problem is that the people who actually need these devices often cannot afford them because of the insane prices. And if one has the need for a device like this, building one themselves is probably out of the question. It is a really sad state of affairs when the disabled are being taken an advantage of like this.Don't tell me that the overhead + reasonable margin on a switch, two leds and two resistors in a box justifies the price they are asking. They can get away with it, because in many countries it is the insurance that pays for many assistive devices, not the patient. It is basically about milking the system, not actually helping the people in need.I was helping a quadriplegic boy in a wheelchair that used one of these "button boxes" to play games and interact with software on a computer. He couldn't use a normal controller or keyboard because of spastic hands, but he can hit the big buttons with his elbows. Unfortunately, the device he had (a box with 4 buttons connected using TRS jacks and an USB interface emulating keyboard) costs 400€+, it is horribly unreliable (really horrid assembly job inside + cheapass buttons that break all the time) and his parents weren't able to afford to pay for a second one that he could use at school. So they had to lug the only one they had around, contributing to the constant problems with it. We have improvized a similar device in an afternoon from some scrap. Certainly didn't cost anywhere close to 400€ and I dare to say it worked a lot better too ...If this isn't a disgusting ripoff, I don't know what is.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 02:14:30 pm
content: QuoteIt is not that simple.In this particular case, it is an issue of affordability, availability and (sub)optimality.Why do you think the family cannot afford it? Could they have worked harder and saved more earlier in anticipation of this? Could they have done things any differently to improve their odds? Could you have pitched in, to design a cheaper device or to raise awareness for other people's charity?...Now, why do you think no cheaper / better devices available? Is it possible that even at 400 euro a piece it is not worth someone's time / efforts to produce one? What can you do about that?Lastly, it is entirely possible that the status quo is optimal for the society collectively. Sure it sucks to be the boy and his family. But it is possible that solutions / alternatives can be more costly (not just in monetary terms) to the society overall. ie. sometimes being suboptimal is optimal (constrained optimality as they call in economics).Price control, in this case, is no different than a rip off of people who can potentially help the boy (by designing a better / cheaper device). Advocating price control, in this case, is no different than pushing the burden of forced charity onto others, than providing your own charity to the needy, in the form of monetary support and/or your time / efforts / knowhow.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 02:29:49 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on June 12, 2014, 01:38:32 pmYou are confusing between business and charity. Very different goals.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 03:20:29 pm
content: Quote from: retrolefty on June 12, 2014, 12:32:55 pmExtra ordinary buzz-words require extra ordinary patience.What I'm saying, and I find it self-evident is, that greed is the top reason to put one's interests over the common greater good. Doing that is the very definition of evil. Does greed motivate people to get off their asses? Yes it does! But the question is: Does it do more harm than good. My claim is it does. It is NOT an extraordinary claim (greed is one of the cardinal sins, greed works against Kant's categorical imperative, greed is almost universally considered bad in any moral system). I find it tedious to discuss this.The only way I could provide you with hard, indisputable evidence that greed is overall does much more harm than good, is to travel into the future and see how it plays out for us. Provided, of course, we won't have overcome greed as the primary motivator.P.S. What I say sounds preachy, but frankly I don't care about greed that much. I'll be dead the time it creates real problems for me. I was born a white male in a prosperous country and have a good family who supported my education. I'll just sit quiet and enjoy it. I think that's a healthy attitude. Besides future generations might just solve the problems we created for us.Sarcasm? Go figure!

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 08:53:38 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on June 12, 2014, 01:38:32 pmThe $99 RRP is not unreasonable for the relatively low volume device it is.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 11:49:36 pm
content: Quote from: retrolefty on June 12, 2014, 02:51:23 amlol, so it seems we agree that the heart of the problem is the government!!

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 11:59:58 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on June 12, 2014, 01:38:32 pmcompletely off topic, but thats just how my ADD works....i remember a while back reading a build article on a site like this about how a guy did up his daughters wheelchair, complete with things like a voice activated cell phone that could call home or 911, and a gps tracker in case she/her chair was taken, among other things to help should problems arise.it wasnt the intent of the article, but the only thing this did was fill me with rage. WHY THE FUCK would the shit bag scum of the earth that would do something to hurt a young girl in a wheelchair still be allowed to even walk the streets, let alone BREATHE. and have we devolved that far that someone could see this young handicapped girl stuck somewhere in a wheelchair and NOT do a damn thing to help her out??sad state of affairs.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 12:31:51 am
content: QuoteDevolve, sense when? You think human evil is something new or even increasing? I think global information just makes us more aware of the evil that has always been, but it's nothing new and not increasing.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 08:28:18 am
content: Wellsince there are crime statistics, that much is true.Fraud however increases steadily not to mention the increasing inequality in wealth.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 09:45:23 am
content: Plenty of forms of violent crimes are on the rise again.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 11:16:46 am
content: QuoteAnger management is in order.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 12:41:30 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 12, 2014, 02:14:30 pmWhy do I think - well, I have met the family (and not only one). And, um, how do you "save earlier" in anticipation of having a disabled child that is going to be bound to a wheelchair for the rest of their (awfully short) life? And "worked harder" - you probably don't realize what many of those families have to go through financially just to pull through - to pay rent, not go hungry, pay for the required care for the disabled relative. Caring for a disabled relative can be extremely expensive, so every euro counts. And it is not something that makes it easy to take an extra job or "work harder" - often someone has to actuallyquitthe job to care for the person 24/7.I have tried to help, but I wasn't in a position to start a company to build these on an industrial scale at the time.Quote from: dannyf on June 12, 2014, 02:14:30 pmI have built a cheaper and better device as said before. However, the main problem is the volume - basically these things are low volume products, most companies don't give a damn because it is more profitable to build for the mass-market than for a minority. There are some "mom & pop" outfits, often run by the relatives of the handicapped people building these devices for their own needs, but that is not enough.One large well known consumer electronics company even gave us "we don't want to be seen as trying to profit from the handicapped people"when we asked them why they don't want to work with us (I was at an university research lab back then) to make their products more accessible for the disabled.If you haven't been there, you cannot imagine the BS that is going on ...Quote from: dannyf on June 12, 2014, 02:14:30 pmRight, animals often kill the sick and weak. Also Sparta was throwing their weak and sick kids into a ravine, because they were worthless for the military. However, I thought we were a humane society where there are concepts beyond "price", "profit" and "costs" - such as solidarity and empathy.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 12:57:08 pm
content: QuoteCharity is easy to offer, especially at other people's expenses.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 01:05:03 pm
content: QuoteWith all the price gouging discussions here, who can blame them?That's point I was trying to make earlier, you have a nice job in creating an environment where people who could potentially help are being punished.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 01:07:28 pm
content: QuoteThat's why we have charity.However, charity is noble only when you offer your own.When you offer other people's charity, it is considered barbaric in a civilized society.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 02:46:56 pm
content: Quote from: con-f-use on June 12, 2014, 03:20:29 pmIt's not an extraordinary claim, it's just a false claim. Regimes that focus on 'the common greater good' are oppressive.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 10:06:47 pm
content: Now that is an extraordinary claim.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 02:20:22 am
content: Quote from: con-f-use on June 13, 2014, 10:06:47 pmYou can start reading herehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

author: justanothercanuck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 02:27:07 am
content: Amazon price gouges.http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008JGR9MO/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2MZJBZS0DJLNQhttp://www.amazon.ca/Ultra-Portable-Wireless-Bluetooth-Cambridge-SoundWorks/dp/B008JGR9MO/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1402798925&sr=8-4&keywords=B008JGR9MOEven if it wasn't on sale, it's $20 cheaper in the states... not to mention, free Amazon Prime shipping on the US site.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 11:36:44 am
content: Quote from: zapta on June 15, 2014, 02:20:22 amI don't dispute that there was alot of evil. I just say, they didn't "focus on the common good". Sure they said they were, but saying something and doing it are two completely different things. Even in Communism the root of the evil was greed, or more precise: the desire for unshared power over others.Now back to topic. That one might be controversial:Resistance Decade Box. But its just a bunch of heavy duty switch wheels and some precision resistors.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 07:39:08 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on June 13, 2014, 02:46:56 pmI wont mention democrats, but the US is certainly heading in this direction.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 08:16:35 pm
content: To go back to silly prices.I need some spacers - you know the ordinary sort of nylon spacer that you can get for a few pence from Hong Kong via ebay.Idoneed a size I couldn't find on ebay - 4.3mm ID/7-8mm OD and 12 or 13mm long. Google lead me tothis pageGlanced at the price - great, I thought, £1.09 for 50 - 2.6p each inc VAT - even cheaper than ebay (I'd found some 15mm ones at 2.7p each).Errrr, no, that's £1.09 (+VAT)eachand a minimum order of 50Fortunately I found some morereasonably priced, sadly the MOQ of 500 means I may well still end up spending > 50 quid on nylon spacers but at least it will be at a price where I can clear the surplus on ebay at 20p each or something.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 08:31:26 pm
content: If you can handle 6.3mm outside diameter, you have these:http://uk.farnell.com/duratool/d01485/pcb-round-spacer-nylon66-natural/dp/1733416If you really need 8 mm external diameter, you could just put some heatshrink around the tube.//ps .. i only saw now that they're 4.2 mm diameter inside.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 08:42:44 pm
content: If you can cope with 4.2mm id then there's these:p/n CS-L12-D8-42http://www.toby.co.uk/content/catalogue/products.aspx?series=CS-Lxx-Dx-xx

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 08:47:53 pm
content: QuoteConsidered your charity volunteered by the government,

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 09:06:09 pm
content: QuoteYes, they might do. Not sure why I passed over those originally.I don't especially want 8mm external diameter, closer to 6.5 would be better but I can live with up to 9mm I think.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 06:53:28 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 10, 2014, 09:15:44 pmI think in this case he was talking about consumables, rather than spare parts. It's stupid that consumables sometimes cost more than the product, like with some inkjet printer: the cartridges cost as much as a new printer.

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 08:21:06 pm
content: As for consumables, the odds are that the parent product makes the company more money on the margin than the consumable it uses so they price the things accordingly. At which point you can pay more for a cartridge or buy a whole printer. It's your option to do what you want, and nobody is obfuscating the prices from you or forcing you to buy one item or the other.Now with regard to the costs of some of these apparently ridiculously cheap items being price inflated to screw the consumer. Are you really sure the prices are artificially inflated?(read in the voice of Matt Damon with a heavy Bahston accent);You set up a shop to make some product and you're instantly stuck paying city taxes, county taxes, state taxes, federal taxes, usage fees, and excise fees and taxes, all the while being mobbed by OSHA, the FDA, USDA, ICC, DHS, IOU FU2 et al. You're 10 million dollars in debt from state and federal regulations alone and you haven't produced unit one yet. Then when you finally begin to hire and now you're paying workers comp, social security, ACA fees various heath and retirement programs, and you now have to hire people to administer all these programs, then the unions step in and start demanding things and telling you how your business should be run, so now you're fighting with the unions. And if you DON'T live in a right to work state then you may be forced to go through a union for your labor and if that laborer screws up, it's a year of bullshit just to fire the person that comes to work habitually drunk and stoned and drove a palette jack through a skid of supplies worth 500k dollars. If you get sick of this you then move to a "right to work" state and you get screamed at for fucking over the poor employees and it's somehow your fault that you're not paying people a living wage. At some point you say fuck all this shit. You close down the factory and ship the work over to SE Asia or China, and now you're the evil capitalist pig that just screwed everybody out their jobs, their livelihood, and are somehow singularly responsible for the downfall and collapse of our once great nation. By the time the dust settles all the external costs of producing a 0.00005 cent part gets driven up to a dollar while trying to stay competitive with a profit margin of 3 cents on that dollar, yet they're price gouging the consumer.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 08:41:37 pm
content: Quote from: ampdoctor on June 16, 2014, 08:21:06 pmwow, bonus points for working the word "obfuscating" into a post. ive never heard it quite in that context before.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 09:43:59 pm
content: -in this case he was talking about consumables, rather than spare parts. It's stupid-that's the business model of razors and blades.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2014, 12:12:01 pm
content: Well! I admit I started this thread in something of a fury over being charged $30 for a part that should have been $3, and having to live with it because of no alternate source.Considering my political/economic views lie somewhere in the triangle between Ayn Rand, the US founding fathers, and the Free Software Foundation, perhaps that wasn't very well considered. Interesting to read the discussion though.The funny thing is, it had been a while since I bought anything from Turks, and when I asked them the price of the neon in the first place I was so shocked that I totally forgot I have an account with them. Which if I'd remembered to show my card would have given me a good percentage off the total invoice. So it was gouging compounded by forgetfulness. Still a huge price reasonableness difference between the neon and all the other items.I still think there are cases that can justly be considered price gouging, even if it's a bit hard to define, given free market principles. In fact trying to define what it is - is quite an interesting and difficult problem in itself. At least I wasn't forced to buy that neon, unlike US citizens now forced to buy overpriced health insurance, whether they want to or not. So gouging exists in between fair trade, and extortion with menaces.Also, ironically now you can all ridicule me for asking $2100 for an old radio over inhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/for-sale-angrc-106-military-radio-set/Is that price gouging too, I wonder? I don't think so, but then I'm the hopeful seller, and there's no alternate supply (here in Australia.)

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2014, 08:24:32 pm
content: Quote from: ampdoctor on June 16, 2014, 08:21:06 pmCome to do business in Europe, especially in place like France. You ain't seen nothing yet

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2014, 09:07:42 pm
content: Quote from: deth502 on June 16, 2014, 08:41:37 pmYou just did it as well ;-)

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 10:33:33 am
content: QuoteThose social programs, you know.What they didn't realize is that because of such laws aimed at protecting the workers, employers will be extra careful hiring any, knowing how difficult / costly it can be to dismiss any of them later.In the end, the very people they intend to help are getting hurt.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 03:37:04 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 18, 2014, 10:30:36 amThis unsubstantiated claim is not even an anecdote. ;-)Check this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_hour_worked

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 09:37:42 pm
content: While my original comment was admittedly heavily laced with hyperbole, it wasn't that far off the mark. Anybody that's involved themselves with a business start-up particularly in manufacturing knows what I'm talking about here. If you're not uniquely wired to handle the stresses of modern business, It's a life sucking nightmare that will not end. For others they need that madhouse like the rest of the world needs air.With respect to labor, I don't know how people came up with the idea that business treats their employees as nothing more than organic robots. You couldn't get any farther from the truth. Most businesses know full well that their labor force is the difference between success and failure and they bend over backwards to ensure they find the highest quality employees and do what they can to hang on to them. However, it's a careful balancing act between paying your employees high wages and benefits and making acceptable profit margins. That 3 cents on the dollar profit margin really does exist, and one bad decision and you're bankrupt and now nobody is getting paid anything.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 09:56:53 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 18, 2014, 03:17:33 pmHaving an employee who is or becomes useless (can't be trained, etc) but never actually commits an obvious sackable offence can be a real issue. I'm sure there are some asshole companies out there, just like there are asshole employees.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 01:06:44 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 19, 2014, 12:48:40 pmFreedom and independence are not necessarily easy. Some prefers others taking care of them. In the US such people take government jobs. Once in you virtually can't be removed.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 04:08:15 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 19, 2014, 03:43:18 pmWe want many things but in a free society nobody owe us a thing.I have worked for large and small US companies and was always treated as a human. If you don't like your current employer, you are free to leave. Around here you are not even required to give a notice, you can just not show up and the employer is required pay your earned balance. Employment happens only when there is mutual will. It's a healthy model.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 09:04:17 am
content: Quote from: zapta on June 19, 2014, 04:08:15 pmOf course they owe us a thing. Everyone owns every human being the minimal amount of courtesy. Its called human rights. An employer does not have the right to pollute the world, we all live in for example. He does not have the right to get 99% of the profit of your work, just because he owns the machinery and has a bit of a risk. That's no different from slavery.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 11:59:28 am
content: Quote from: con-f-use on June 20, 2014, 09:04:17 amOf course the employer has a right to get 99% of the profit. How much the employer gets is irrelevant as long as the employee gets the wage they are entitled to by law. If a company is loosing money do the employees all chip in?

author: StevenB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 12:47:25 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 19, 2014, 12:48:40 pmYou have a fairly warped view of employment in the US, especially as an engineer. I've worked at several companies and this has not been my experience, nor that of my colleagues. The only time I've seen engineers let go where situations when the company was in financial peril or due to complete imcompetence (after repeated efforts to train). As was stated earlier, I'm sure there are bad companies out there, but those places get a reputation and you just stay away.The key is to make yourself a valuable commodity (it's not your employer's responsibility to do this) if you don't want to be a "cog". It's really not that hard to be above average. The above average folks do quite well.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 01:58:52 pm
content: QuoteAgreed, other than the "by law" part: the compensation should be whatever the employee and the employer agreed to in an arm's length transaction.If the employer decided to pay the employee million dollars an hour, or if the employee takes a $1/yr salary, it should be fine with anybody else. Government should have no say here.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 02:05:57 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 20, 2014, 08:43:04 amIf you equates employment agreement between free people with slavery you don't know what slavery is.Quote from: mojo-chan on June 20, 2014, 08:43:04 amSocialists see people as pool of resources. I see them as free individuals.Quote from: mojo-chan on June 20, 2014, 08:43:04 amIs this is the country where they kidnap free people and confiscate their ships? These are socialist practices, not libertarians. ;-)

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 02:59:27 pm
content: I think this thread has drifted far enough off topic.

author: electrophiliate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 03:41:19 pm
content: Earlier on someone mentioned paying 12c/kWh for electricity.I used to pay 12c/kWh 6 years ago but it has jumped to 24c/kWh and there is no alternative company.Is that an example of price gouging?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 03:45:49 pm
content: QuoteI have paid that for my electricity for the last 10 years, in addition to distribution costs (of about $15c/kwh), plus surcharges for consumption during peak hours.In return, they did offer me the opportunity for paying more for alternative sources for electricity.

author: electrophiliate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 03:50:52 pm
content: Just had a look at a recent bill and noticed that 10% of that 24c/kWh is a carbon tax.

author: jlmoon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 03:57:25 pm
content: QuoteI refer to that as having a "niche"

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 04:23:26 pm
content: Quote from: electrophiliate on June 20, 2014, 03:41:19 pmIt's depends of what is a reasonable cost to generate and transmit the electricity. Utility companies are inherently monopolistic since you cannot have multiple electrical lines and gas and water pipes in the same neighborhood. Free market does not apply here.In the US there was an attempt to separate into generation (competitive) and transmission (monopolistic) but am not sure what happened with it.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 08:29:38 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 20, 2014, 01:18:26 pmOf course the law should mandate a fair minimum wage, working conditions, etc. I never said otherwise.The employee may also negotiate a higher wage or other favourable conditions.But... how much profit the company makes is still irrelevant to the employee.I suspect a lot of employees have little idea on the costs of running a business or bringing products to market.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 12:04:44 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 20, 2014, 11:00:26 pmWhat? Somalia is Libertarian country? Where did you get this information? Check for example the transparency index, it's in 174th place.http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/interactive/2011/dec/01/world-corruption-index-transparency-international-mapMojo Chan, I understand that you believe in different values and social model but it's not an excuse to skew reality.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 12:39:27 am
content: QuoteWho determines what is fair?

author: electrophiliate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 01:42:58 am
content: Quote from: zapta on June 20, 2014, 04:23:26 pmIndeed.http://www.theage.com.au/business/why-electricity-prices-continue-to-shock-people-20140613-3a2va.html

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 03:21:54 am
content: Quote from: electrophiliate on June 21, 2014, 01:42:58 amIndeed that happened here in California. Results were the Governor lost a recall election and we ended up with the Govenator.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 04:52:57 am
content: Quote from: retrolefty on June 21, 2014, 03:21:54 amDidn't Enron end up controlling much of the grid, them taking various generators offline and shooting up the price of electricity since they traded that as a commodity?

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 01:12:09 pm
content: Quote from: echen1024 on June 21, 2014, 04:52:57 amNo not directly. The Calif new law/regulations at the time deregulated the wholesale price of electricity but maintained/mandated retail price controlled by the State utilities commission. It didn't take independent wholesalers long to game that system (not just Enron), causing PG&E (one of two largest utilities in the state) to transfer all it's assists to parent company and file for bankruptcy of it's consumer electricity division.It was a flawed law that tried to have it both ways (deregulation=open competition on the supply side Vs consumer price protection on the retail side). Politicians suffered a great fire storm leading to the successful recall election. A classic case where Government control/central planning is a cure worst then the disease.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 01:43:12 pm
content: -Didn't Enron end up controlling much of the grid, them taking various generators offline and shooting up the price of electricity since they traded that as a commodity? -yes, if you buy into the lefts propaganda.the truth is far more complicated than that but it does serve as a prime example of how governments can mess up a free mkt.

author: What_NZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 01:51:23 pm
content: This may not fit your criteria exactly but is it price gouging with no good reason. I have contacted Element14 but they haven't altered their price since my last email of 4 months ago. When I rang them they checked with someone(?) and came back and said they could sell them for $42.47 a 10% discount - lolhttp://nz.element14.com/harwin/m20-1180046/contact-socket-30-22awg-crimp-pk100/dp/1022220?Ntt=M20-1180046and to comparehttp://nz.rs-online.com/web/p/pcb-connector-contacts/6812887/?searchTerm=M20-1180046for 100 pieces = $47.19 from Element14 and $9.00 from RS same part same quantity. I just wonder how many Element14 has sold in New Zealand and Australia at obviously the wrong price.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 02:02:24 pm
content: -exactly but it is price gouging with no good reason.-what exactly is price gouging?maybe getting that defined will help focus the discussion.

author: What_NZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 02:16:00 pm
content: oops that was meant to be "is it' not 'it is". Corrected my post to avoid problems. Thanks for pointing it out.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 03:14:36 pm
content: This;http://au.rs-online.com/web/p/soldering-iron-accessories/6750708/207 AUD (194.3 USD)VShttp://sg.rs-online.com/web/p/soldering-iron-accessories/6750708/108 SGD (86.4 USD)

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 04:08:04 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 21, 2014, 02:02:24 pmElement 14 sells the same product for x5 than RS, in the same market.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 06:33:06 pm
content: Quote from: What_NZ on June 21, 2014, 01:51:23 pmholy shit!! i wnat to know what is so damn special about that criimp tool?!?!?!http://nz.element14.com/harwin/z20-320/crimp-tool-m20-series/dp/889260?in_merch=true&MER=MER-L52-L5IB-PD-ACC-CNN

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 06:34:05 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on June 21, 2014, 04:08:04 pmas dave has always said... the ben heck show aint cheap.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 09:02:06 pm
content: Quote from: retrolefty on June 21, 2014, 01:12:09 pmWho benefited from the extra electric bill charges? I am looking at this graph, PG&E did well in 2003. Is this the time frame?.https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=maximized&chdeh=0&chfdeh=0&chdet=1403384352045&chddm=1434970&cmpto=NYSE:PCG&cmptdms=0&q=MUTF:VTSMX&&ei=3PGlU_mcE6XGigK2rYEw

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 09:29:54 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on June 21, 2014, 09:02:06 pmThe actual 'crisis' spanned 2000/2001Quote

author: Tothwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2014, 05:23:43 am
content: Quote from: deth502 on June 21, 2014, 06:33:06 pmRepeatable precision crimps (aerospace, mil-spec, etc), low volume production (they don't make many of these tools each year), each tool being hand assembled, calibrated, tested, and certified... That sort of tooling just doesn't come cheap. These aren't your typical ~$100.00 interchangeable die ratchet-type crimp tools. I own a good bit of similar AMP/Tyco/TE Connectivity tooling and some of the hand tools I have cost upwards of $2,500.00+ each brand new. If you require that sort of tooling, the trick is to make use of the specialty second hand market/resellers of these sort of specialized tools and then get them serviced and recertified by the manufacturer at a fraction of the new cost.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2014, 12:21:32 pm
content: Price gouging...Australian Passports, one of the most expensive in the world.You have two choices: Pay up, or don't go abroad.You don't get much for your money - a small book with your mushot on it and some RFID chip inside. It costs $244 to get one and they mislead you it is good for 10 years, but it is only good for 9.5 years because many countries won't allow you into their country unless there are at least 6 months left on the passport. The passports are handled by a dodgy monopoly called Australia Post, who get an undisclosed kickback.It is actually lot more expensive than $244, because you have to earn a lot more money to get the $244 after tax. So you might have to earn $400 to get the passport. The government gets the tax as well.Its a scam.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2014, 12:23:27 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on June 24, 2014, 12:21:32 pmlol - how is that any different to anything else you buy?

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2014, 12:43:01 pm
content: Hold on, I agree with VK3DRB a little bit, but not for passports. A passport is something not anyone needs and people don't want it included in their taxes and pay for it, if they don't need it.However, in some countries, you are required by law to be able to present an ID at all time when outside your house. This is sensible (among other reasons) because the police won't have to take you with them when they are searching for someone that looks like you, or want to give you speed ticket or something, making life easier for both parties.But if everyone is required to have one, why do I have check for myself when mine expires, go to some institution, pay them an extensive amount of money and get it renewed? I get that I have to pay extra and go through the hassle, when I lost mine. That's my fault. But if the government requires everyone to have a valid ID, it's their responsibility to remind people, when theirs is about to expire, send them some form to get it renewed and pay it out of tax money.Also they tend to be more expensive than necessary. I know a lot goes into making reasonably forgery proof documents. But they are mass produced and demand can be estimated very well.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2014, 12:55:54 pm
content: Quote from: David_AVD on June 24, 2014, 12:23:27 pmYou are right. Income tax is price gauging in general. ;-)

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2014, 01:00:25 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on June 24, 2014, 12:21:32 pmPrice gauging? With the cost of government bureaucracy around here it probably costs $10k to issue one passport so yours is subsidized. ;-)