TOYOTA Celica with lost keys. To buy or not to buy ?.... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 07:26:56 pm
content: ......that is the question regarding a cheap 1995 TOYOTA Celica that i found and I'd like to buy it but the owner has lost the keys (hence it's cheap).The car is not stolen, and is still in a pretty ok condition. It's quite far from where I'm at, about 150 kilos.Now i know that regular house keys have a code to them but is it the same with car keys ? If so then, correct me if I'm wrong but I assume something like that should be written in the car documents.Then there's the immobilizer part but from what i know that should be a simple EEPROM rewrite on the ECU to get it to accept a new key.What do you guys think ?

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 07:39:05 pm
content: Gen 6 I presume.I had a 5 and I drive a 7, nice cars.It sounds suspicious.Losing both sets of original keys is a little............ careless but there would have been a key number and that should be in the car documentation. Toyota should be able to supply replacements.In the UK I would walk, no, run away from this.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 07:41:09 pm
content: Contact a Toyota dealer with license plate and chassis number information and see what they can tell you.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 07:45:17 pm
content: As long as you have the proper paperwork you can get a replacement key. For a car that old I doubt it's going to be too much trouble and if it's cheap enough who cares? You can always resell it for parts or scrap.I was able to get a replacement key for my 1987 car just by giving my friend the VIN number while he was at the dealer for something else, they actually cut and sold him a key without any issues, got it from him and it fit perfectly. Mine is too old to have any sort of immobilizer and I like it that way. Those things are more trouble than they're worth IMO and thieves can still defeat the system and steal the cars. There was actually a serious problem for a while after immobilizers started to appear. Insurance companies were way over-confident in their effectiveness and believing it was impossible to steal a car with an immobilizer they refused to pay claims of many people who legitimately had their cars stolen. It took several years before enough thieves had been caught in possession of sophisticated tools to crack the systems. Many cars even had "secret" sequences reminiscent of video game cheat codes which could disable the immobilizer.

author: Avacee
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 07:53:22 pm
content: The cynic in me can't help wondering if the seller has the keys and is planning to steal it back and chop it up for parts :p

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 07:59:58 pm
content: Surely there are easier ways to make money than selling a mundane 22 year old car sans keys and then stealing it back for parts?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 08:02:54 pm
content: Hah, I drive a '95 Celica!Hrm, wait a second... *glances out the window*...Tim

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 08:58:04 pm
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on March 24, 2017, 07:26:56 pmSounds like a car stolen somewhere to the west of you and "imported", with fake papers. Many cars stolen in western/central Europe end up like this in Ukraine, Russia and who knows where else.Guy selling a car very cheaply because he lost both keys and didn't try to get a replacement from the manufacturer (which costs nothing compared to the price of the car) - yeah, sure. Sounds about as legit as those Nigerian scam e-mails.Run as fast as you can.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 09:37:03 pm
content: Unless the lock cylinders have been replaced at some point, a dealership should be able to cut duplicate keys based on the VIN. It sounds a bit fishy to me...-Pat

author: raspberrypi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 09:53:51 pm
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on March 24, 2017, 07:26:56 pmI used o own a car dealership (in USA) and this was NEVER a fun problem. It being from 1995 might make things simple. If it does have any electronic security to get a new key you need to go to the dealer with the title ID and proof you own the car. Some newer car actually required towing to the dealer so they could program the key. Worth buying if its priced really cheap.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 10:02:16 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on March 24, 2017, 08:58:04 pmI was quoted about £40 for a replacement key for the Gen 7 at a local key cutting place (which needed the original wireless fob to clone).In the UK a good example of a Gen 6 might be worth a few grand - they are getting into the "modern classic" bracket - definitely worth getting replacement keys before sale.But in Lithuania, maybe if it's not in that great condition I can see that the seller might not consider it worthwhile for a car with a value of a few hundred euros.Still smells wrong though.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 10:11:02 pm
content: Does smell funny. What year did they start adding the immobilizer chips to the key? My 1993 Toyota truck has plain old fashioned metal keys, no electronics in sight. It's one of those that are known outside of the US as the Hilux. Usually seen with a dozen guys with AK-47's hanging off them or else being submerged on a beach by Clarkson & Co and then dropped from a crane.

author: raspberrypi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 12:30:18 am
content: On second though I woundnt buy it considering you might have to tow it home and you dont know if it runs. The seller should get they keys made then just up the price unless they tried that and couldn't or they dont want you to know it doesn't run or its stolen.I would never buy a car without a test drive, even at the auction where the cars are supposed to guaranteed.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 12:44:07 am
content: I bought my car without a test drive. It was 500 bucks, very nice condition but the kid said the engine was bad. Battery was completely dead so I couldn't start it. Bought it anyway assuming I'd need to do an engine swap, came back the next day and put a new battery in it, fired right up so I drove it home. It had some water in the oil, looked like whipped cream on the dipstick but I never conclusively found the cause, o-ring was missing from the dipstick so it may have got in there. I changed the oil and I'm still driving it 17 years later. It's a gamble, but when the price is right it can pay off.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 02:00:35 am
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on March 24, 2017, 07:26:56 pmIn the first place, if there are no keys, you can't start the engine to test drive it. So, it is a non-starter to begin with (pun intended).

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 05:26:08 am
content: Even knowing where to look for all the signs of problems with a car, if you are buying it as a viable form of transport, you still have to be able to take it for a test drive. Without hearing the engine running and feeling it on the road, you could be simply buying a whole bundle of hurt.Yes, there is a chance that it is all above board and you may get something you will be happy with - but I would NOT be relying on that.As others have said, this has an uncomfortable aroma about it.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 07:36:44 am
content: With the amount of items "moved" without authorisation from SE,DK & DE that turns up in former eastern block countries ... I would be surprised if the car really is with full documentation and local owner history.Take it to a dealer and have all VIN's and history checked. And if they can read the key number out of the computer - that is a great way to get history if VIN has been modified.The problem has gone down a bit now with border controls - but somehow many cars are still "moving" in that direction (cars are only part of it - complete building sites have been "moved" - all machines incl. giant diggers) - Some get loaded on boats in the harbours and then "transferred" to Poland, Ukraine, Russia and the Baltic states. Others driven out - or driven or car transports through the open borders - where ever they are.Sorry not trying to be judgementalbut the issue is huge in SE,DK & DE.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 07:51:02 am
content: 95 Toyota sedan, so likely does have factory immobiliser in it, so while the key is a cheap thing at the dealers, cut using the VIN, the little RFID block in the housing is going to need either a tow to the dealer, or another wrecked vehicle to do the ECU swap and simply tape the old key to the lock.Common here for a VW to get stolen that way, simply take along a key and matching ECU, and unplug the original and plug in your one, then use a sharp tug to break the lock pawl on the steering, and go under and unplug the switch loom and plug another into it, complete with the matching key. Start and drive away.Then go to a car park, park there and leave, and see if the tracking company comes for it, and then next day just drive another stolen one in, use that ticket ( 1 hour free parking is a bonus for these guys, drive in in one car and drive out with another 10 minutes later) and take it to chop.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 11:35:36 am
content: Quote from: kaz911 on March 25, 2017, 07:36:44 amNot only there - Polish and Romanian gangs were caught stealing agricultural tractors here in France last year. They were to be loaded into containers and shipped Eastwards. Typical destinations are Ukraine, Russia, sometimes even Middle East.Poland, Slovakia and other eastern countries are rarely the final destinations these days because those are EU members and it is hard to legalize a stolen machine like that there. There it is more common for stolen vehicles to be broken up for parts and sold like that - it is both safer and more profitable.And before someone accuses me of racism or stereotyping or something like that - I am Slovak myself ...

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 11:53:56 am
content: Quote from: janoc on March 25, 2017, 11:35:36 amUsed to be that cars went missing over here in the UK and were hidden in shipping containers, I've been told of many a raid by a couple of guys at the port of Liverpool. They reckoned the cars were often stolen for or by ship's crew who stripped the cars and disposed of the bodyshells into the sea on the way home, leaving just a pil;e of easily saleable parts.Back when Lada had a market presence in the UK it was really difficult to find them in scrapyards as there were lots of eastern European buyers who'd snap them up for spares to sell at home so it wasn't all high value cars either.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 02:14:37 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 25, 2017, 12:44:07 amWhat you're seeing is a pretty clear indication of a blown head gasket! 17 years?!Quote from: janoc on March 25, 2017, 11:35:36 amJust FYI... Racism has nothing to do with nationality.Racism is too big of a problem to cheapen by making everything "racism".

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 05:26:49 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on March 25, 2017, 11:35:36 amAwww, you had to say the "R" word, now this thread is doomed. Nobody here will ever call you racist unless you're really going at it.But anyways, the car has Lithuanian license plates, and supposedly 1.5 years of technical inspection ( rego or however you call it ) left.I'll have to call the seller to clear things up, maybe get rid of some of that fishy smell in the process.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 07:42:24 pm
content: Just called the owner and he said that he wants to sell the car more as "for parts" because he hadn't had it running.According to him he bought the car as-is and cracked the steering lock to get it on a truck.This smells so much like a stolen car, but would he be selling it like that, so publicly with the license plates visible, on one of the most popular car sale sites in my country if it was stolen ?And he says the paperwork is there, too.It's probably also gonna be a world of pain under that hood but even knowing that I'm itching to get my hands on that car because I love fixing stuff.Especially the stuff that goes "vroom".Sometimes I have a hard time telling the difference between my enthusiasm and stupidity.But I digress, I need to go and see what what goes on these cars as well as part availability in case I need any.And so far I know that these cars are mechanically sound, except for the automatic transmission but the one I'm looking at is a manual.Anyways, maybe you guys know what is most common to go mechanically on these cars because so far to me this looks like a fun summertime project.Oh and i never said the price other than it's cheap, well it's 265€ in case any of you were interested to know and it's still all in one piece.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 08:09:37 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 25, 2017, 12:44:07 amWon't happen in Lithuania.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 08:12:15 pm
content: Simplify your life. Walk away.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 09:26:14 am
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on March 26, 2017, 07:42:24 pmDon't walk, run. That is very likely a stolen car. The license plates are likely fake/stolen too - that is very common. I have once received a radar fine from Belgium for supposedly speeding there once - one month after the car in question was sold for scrapping to the insurance company (!) as a burned-out hulk following a vandalism incident (yay France). And that has been in a "western" country!When I have called the insurance about what the f..k was that supposed to be about, why they didn't transfer the ownership to them as they were supposed to and why the car wasn't scrapped properly, I have been told that it is common that criminals take the plates from cars to be scrapped and use them to avoid fines - or worse. It also takes a long time for the prefecture to change the registrations. So I could have even been raided as a suspect in some drug crime or terrorism if car plates from my car have been involved in something like that ...Faking paperwork is trivial - blank registration documents and service journals are easily found on the black market. It is also common to "transplant" plates and VIN from a crashed car and "build" a new car "on the paperwork", laundering a repaired wreck or a stolen car.The guy selling the car may not care because tomorrow he may not be there anymore. But you will be stuck with stolen goods. I don't know what the law is in your country, but in Slovakia where I am from and also here in France you could end up with the police taking the car away even if you have bought it in good faith, not knowing it was stolen. And you would be stuck with neither the money nor car and a lot of problems with the police to boot.I think you can find a better deal than this, IMO. This is not worth the trouble.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 02:44:42 pm
content: Maybe there is a possibility to check the license plates with the authorities ?

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 06:55:58 pm
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on March 27, 2017, 02:44:42 pmYou can try, but most countries will not make such database accessible to public due to the sensitive nature of it (addresses, personal info, etc.). Unless you know a cop that is willing to check it for you (and risk getting fired if caught) it is likely a no-go.Also, the plates could be from a legit car that was not stolen - it is common to "reuse" plates and documentation from crashed cars like that, lot of people will sell it to you if you need to "legalize" a car that otherwise would be impossible to register. If it was one sufficiently similar to the one you are looking at, the check will likely come out clean, especially if VINs were modified to match too.Seriously, why are you so hell-bent on getting in trouble over an old car in unknown condition with so many red flags on it? It is not like those Toyotas are some rarity.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 08:29:50 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on March 27, 2017, 06:55:58 pmI'm stubborn like that. ¯\_(?)_/¯But I'm going to the authorities tomorrow just to check.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 08:31:45 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on March 25, 2017, 07:51:02 amas far as I understand for VW the master of the immobilizer system is the instrument cluster so you can't just replace the ECUwith another VW ecu

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 08:54:59 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on March 25, 2017, 02:14:37 pmHead gasket was fine. I actually had the head off last year to repair a couple of broken exhaust manifold studs, did a valve job and new stem seals while I was in there and the gasket looked good, never had any more water get into the oil after that initial incident. I was expecting to have to at least do a head gasket if not a whole engine swap when I got it but never did. The car had 225k miles on it when acquired and is up around 325k now, still holding up pretty well although I need to replace the foam in the driver's seat cushion and it's going to need a couple of panels repainted at some point due to the clearcoat starting to deteriorate.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 08:59:19 pm
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on March 26, 2017, 07:42:24 pmFWIW, they're not too bad. I've had random stuff fail, like ignition/distributor, oil leak, exhaust, wobbly suspension... mainly age related, and so much rust. Not at all known for outstanding faults like "replace transmission every 100k mi" like some GM cars do... Mine's over 300k mi (~500k km), and the engine and transmission (manual) run fine. I'd work on it myself, if I had the time and work area to do it...Tim

author: Iwanushka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 01:01:59 am
content: if that thing is from Lithuania and w/o keys it will be busted engine and so on, trust me I'm from there, it's simple ask they seller to go to dealer and get keys made and say just add those 40 quid to total price, if he refuses, move on, but it smells........

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 01:39:46 am
content: Could it be a donor for Project Binky II (*1)*1: do a youtube search

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 07:21:58 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on March 27, 2017, 08:59:19 pmFWIW, I think GM/Vauxhall have perfected time release clutches, I've just had my third Vauxhall clutch fail after almost exactly 4 years, the car was 86K miles and a week from 4 years old, the car before was 132K miles and a month from 4 years old and the one before that was 127K and, again, a week from 4 years old.The replacement car isn't a GM/Vauxhall and TFFT

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 02:19:51 pm
content: Quote from: boffin on March 28, 2017, 01:39:46 amOh hey, I'd been watching that, then it disappeared after the drop-off. Thanks for the reminder!Tim

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 02:44:36 pm
content: I've been to a few places and now i know everything about the car.Basically the car is marked as "restricted" (or something like that); meaning that the owner can no longer drive or sell the car to anyone else because it was once confiscated by the police. ( << answers the "lost" key question )All that can be done right now is to get the car scrapped or sold off as parts.So the car is probably in full working order but is doomed to be turned into scrap, sad.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 02:47:17 pm
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on March 28, 2017, 02:44:36 pmIt also confirms that the seller was being less than honest.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 03:41:42 pm
content: How he'd be able to sell it to you if the car has a record in the police db ?

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 04:27:58 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on March 28, 2017, 03:41:42 pmJust read a little and it might be because the previous owner hasn't paid a fine and the car has a mortgage on it.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 04:51:50 pm
content: Oh and i'll have to correct myself a bit.The can be driven and used as normal but can not be registered under a different name/owner.Well, in theory it can be registered under a different name but the new owner would have to pay what the previous owner didn't.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 07:55:16 pm
content: You know the old saying " everything keeps falling off, Toyota", is true, the body rots away, the doors stop locking, the windows fall out, but the engine and drivetrain just keep on going, and eventually the oil leaks keep the rust at bay as well.I learnt a lot about auto body repair owning a Toyota, replacing panels, doing rust holes and how to use "pre loved" parts from the mangled heaps at the local scrapyards. Even did the engine as well, but never had to do anything to the manual gearbox aside from seals and checking the oil level.

author: Iwanushka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 08:09:52 pm
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on March 28, 2017, 02:44:36 pmnot your case but just in case...If this happened in Lithuania there could be a second reason why it cannot be registered, some time a go they changed some laws and if insurance company says that car is beyond economical repair they will remove it from registry so you can't fix it by "welding 3 cars into 1" and sell it, we had this shit all the time... and if it was just confiscated for traffic violations w/e you pay up and you get it back and you can drive it again, unless they decide to keep it so there is no way you get it back but for this you need to do some crazy stuff.