Smart TV's - Crap Or Not? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 09:49:23 am
content: Ok, so what's the deal with these new fangled smart TV's?I need a new big screen TV for the lounge room, and it seems the big brands only do smart TV's these days?I need it to do this:- Watch regular digital TV- WiFi networking to a drive with all our stuff on it- playing downloaded stuff from said drive (various formats)- Using the ABC iView and SBS equivalent.- PVR like recording functionally to an external USB hard drive or said WiFi network drive.- Watching DVD's (but that's a given)Not much else, that's nothing fancy I don't think?I asked on twitter and got responses from "all smart TV's are useless crap, get a real media centre box etc" to "Yep, work great, will do everything you want"So I'm thinking something like this Sony (we like Sony)http://www.sony.com.au/product/kdl-60w600bComments?Are they really that shit? I'm not that fussed if it doesn't play every single file format known to human kind.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 10:01:20 am
content: i would suggest to go for a TV which has a couple of HDMI inputs , network/wifi , HDD recording and has a DLNA player(renderer) with a possibility of control over DLNA (most of the recent TV should have this), and just ignore the rest of the "smart" features - most probably you won't use them at all (crappy games, browser, faceboot, twitter apps...etc..).then setup a DLNA server with all the content + install a DLNA control app to your phone or tablet.

author: Scrts
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 10:12:56 am
content: From my personal experience, most of the Smart functions are more or less well designed in Samsung smart TVs. It does damn everything, just the coffee machine missing. I like it because of fast menu also, plus Samsung is capable of receiving multicast IPTV.I also have Panasonic 50ST50 (Plasma), which smart functions are not so great. LG was quite buggy... I don't have any experience with Sony, however they came to Smart TVs market a bit late. Maybe they have investigated their competitor problems? I don't know.My vote goes for Samsung. Just check which class are you looking into, since it introduces WiFi on upper classes only.

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 10:19:37 am
content: Pissing people off and creating more attack surface.Seems like the attacks were ridiculously simple, like a specially crafted skype status message on one of your contacts means you are owned. Owned means they can control your TV and watch the built in webcam, turning on the microphone would have been too illegal for the researchers. And that was just one example. Security... what security? Smart tv:s need real good security suite, being based on linux doesn't automatically mean it's "secure".

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 10:31:58 am
content: QuoteHad ours a couple years now, no problems. WiFi came as a USB dongle that works fine, although we have ours on our LAN. Later models come with WiFi inside AFAIKPlays movies from remote PC great, navigation reasonably intuitive.Only one of the USB sockets was capable of powering the portable drive for recording.Does not support USB recording.Just check the types of rear connections will suit your immediate and future needs.Get the fastest refresh rate you can, the 100 Hz we have is the lowest that could impress.Webcam would be nice if we had good net, but the previous posts might put you off.

author: Sebastian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 11:12:18 am
content: I wouldn't say they are crap, it depends on what you want to do. I have a Panasonic one and DLNA works okay and there is a TuneIn radio app which also works just fine.The web browser and Youtube app on the other hand, are pretty much unusable. You need a real computer, or at least one of those little things running android for that.There are other apps that are okay, but I don't think anyone would actually use them on a TV, like Skype and those mini games.As you said, all new TVs are smart TVs anyway, so just get one and if it doesn't work you get a HTPC to go along with it. Even an (at least sandy-bridge because of the GPU) Intel i3 does the job.You can get the CPU, main board, RAM, power supply and a nice aluminum case for sub $400. You can also add a blue-ray drive and use the PC to play Movies. You can even play video games if you turn down the graphics. I haven't seen in direct comparison as I don't have any consoles, but I think the IGPU of the last gen i3 is a tough competition for the PS3 and XBOX 360.

author: bktemp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 11:13:18 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 08, 2014, 11:01:36 amYes that ist true. Some (or all?) tvs encrypt the recording using its serial number.An external PVR (or a similiar media box) is a better choice because you can choose it to suit your needs.Recording and watching different channels at the same time is an additional benefit.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 11:23:38 am
content: I've had a good run with Sony, not cheap though. I have found it is a lot easier if you have all the same brand of A-V gear was they talk to each other a bit easier.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 11:44:30 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on August 08, 2014, 10:01:20 amAh, interesting, will look into that, thanks.

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 12:37:31 pm
content: I find the whole smart TV business to be ridiculous - and the fact that you can hardly get a decent TV without it is depressing. There's never going to be one that does all the things you want it to do without being a giant stinking turd in some important aspect, and I like the flexibility of using a PC to handle everything apart fromdisplaying the picture. I'd be more than happy with an oversized PC monitor - just a power lead and HDMI/DisplayPort/DVI input.(... but then I wrote a whole media center software solution because I didn't get along with the other solutions out there. In retrospect perhaps a bit excessive.)

author: Bukurat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 01:06:42 pm
content: We have a few Samsung smart TVs scattered around the house. I use plex media server on a NAS box for local video rather than the dlna capability, and a plex app on the TV for viewing purposes. It also has YouTube - handy with a tablet that has a YouTube app. I can search for and queue YouTube videos on an iPad and play them direct to TV. It also has iView and wireless or wired Ethernet and a bunch of other apps like google maps, web browser etc that are more trouble to use than they are worth.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 01:45:52 pm
content: How long do you plan (hope?) to keep your new TV? Will the vendor provide updates to the smart TV functions for that long? What about security fixes? Given the life cycle for TV models, I'd be surprised to see any updates after 5 years - maybe less. I certainly hope that a big screen TV will last longer than that.Ed

author: mscreations
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 02:07:39 pm
content: One thing that I don't like about my new LG smart TV (55LA7400) is that I get advertisements all over the smart menu. I didn't pay $1500 to be advertised to. And I haven't been able to block the ads without breaking the smart TV functionality. It also seems to update on a fairly regular basis and when it does, it has to download a 480MB update and then install it. Usually takes 15-20 minutes but since I cut the cord and can only do stuff on the smart tv... means I have to wait for it to finish to watch anything unless I want to try to get my DVD player working.Of the features of the TV that I find unneeded, I would say 3D is pretty useless. Few movies are actually filmed in 3D (most of the time it seems they make it 3D in postproduction) and I find it annoying when they do things in the movie just BECAUSE it's in 3D. But finding glasses for young children has proven difficult as the ones from LG are crap and broke within 2 weeks of us getting them. I've had dollar store sunglasses for my kids that have lasted longer!! The only advantage I saw when I was shopping for a new TV is that the 3D TVs seem to have a higher refresh rate than their non-3D counterparts.I also use miniDLNA from a NAS box to stream movies to the TV. It seems to work with every file format I've thrown at it. The only thing it won't work with are DRM titles (which I knew it wouldn't going into it). In the very near future I'm going to be dumping the NAS box for an HTPC with a ridiculous amount of storage (since 3TB is proving to not be enough).

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 02:16:08 pm
content: I would avoi smart TV's.If you buy a Sony make sure it can play mp4, mkv etc movies.Alexander.

author: Maxlor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 02:23:01 pm
content: I don't much care for Smart TV's capability to play media files, the interface is usually frustratingly clunky and slow. However, one feature that I do like a lot is Miracast. It allows you to either mirror your Android's screen to the TV, or to just send youtube links to the TV, the Android then acts as a remote. And even if you play youtube videos locally on the android and just mirror the screen, Miracast is fast enough to handle full screen video.It's a hit, because it makes it so easy to show photos that you have on your phone, or share a youtube clip. It has become a must have feature for me.

author: deephaven
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 02:38:55 pm
content: I've got a Panasonic LCD smart TV and the picture quality is excellent. I always use the YouTube app to watch Dave's videos and the quality is outstanding. It's just slightly fiddly navigating to the "Thumbs Up" button

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 02:56:39 pm
content: I have a Sony Bravia at present,about 5 years old. When that blows I will more than likely replace it with a very large monitor and a dedicated computer with wireless keyboard etc far better than fiddling around with remotes.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 03:16:16 pm
content: Smart tv are crap. Software updates are nonexistent, and why do you want a tv that runs an operating system and has a boot time ?A tv , actually a monitor these days, should take a video signal or stream and display it. Done.Then get an external media processor like an apple iTV or a Roku. Those do get updates.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 07:09:35 pm
content: Quote from: Scrts on August 08, 2014, 10:12:56 amIncluding spying on it's owners...

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 07:11:18 pm
content: I agree with the last three posts but my principle concern is privacy. Please read the EULA on a smart TV carefully and you will find that Sony (or LG or Panasonic or......) get lists of what you watch and when and some manufacturers even get sent lists of the files you watch from USB. Then there's that microphone and possibly a camera as well, something which you do not totally control.So......................When we were searching for a flat screen for the lounge we bought a 26 inch Samsung monitor that came with three HDMI sockets, one gets the cable box, one gets the DVD player and one gets the PC.That PC runs Linux Mint and we decide if the microphone or camera is activated.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 07:43:19 pm
content: I got one from LG for my wife and it works well. It has a clever remote which works like a wireless pointer for easy browsing. Because TV is crap over here (I mean the programs not the reception) my wife mostly watches stuff from the internet. The only thing missing is an add blocker in the browser.Getting a monitor and external mediacenter may be an option if you like to tinker. I just wanted something that works out of the box for my wife. Personally I use my PC as a media center to play music & video.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 07:54:47 pm
content: We have a Panasonic Vt30 plasma, picked up second hand with low hours. Great thing, even though Dave doesn't like Panny plasmas. I just have a 20ft cheap arse HDMI that I hook up to my laptop, and BAM! Smart TV with all the features.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 08:14:13 pm
content: Please search for "HbbTV user tracking" and you'll know

author: kingofkya
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 09:22:30 pm
content: With the exception of send youtube videos from the phone to the tv the smart features in the (lg and samsung as far as i have seen) are worthless, slow and awkward to say the least. On the High end LG i have they though it was a good idea to have a mouse cursor and wii mote style control on a tv.That was not bad enofe, then they make the select key the middle click of a mouse scroll wheel.Relly quite annoying when common things are buried 3+ menus deep even to change the dam input.Its just a bad interface with an equal bad controller.http://www.lg.com/au/tv-accessories/lg-AN-MR300It also insists on controlling everything from one LG remote via the hdmi interconnects.(fails miserably)Also updates are support for about 6 months and then there on to the next model so if anything changes like the youtube api your out of luck. So get a set top box don't wast your mony on broken and incomplete features.

author: Strada916
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2014, 01:09:15 am
content: It all depends on your needs. What want to watch and above all the wife factor. Generally speaking wife factor is between 1 and 5, 1 being great and 5 poo. If she can't control it with ease then you are doomed.

author: RobertHolcombe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2014, 02:00:59 am
content: I have a Samsung Series 6 which was available in 2013, I believe series 9 is the latest.Support is good, latest firmware version was released just two days ago. It boots up within 5 seconds and is ready to use.I run both a DLNA server and Plex on my Synology DS1512+, then can either select files to view using my phone, and simply swipe them towards the TV or use the Samsung Plex app on the TV

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2014, 02:31:02 am
content: Mount a PC to the back side and call it a smart TV. Actually, what we need is an "open hardware" smart TV that's basically just a LCD panel and driver board, accepting common PC parts.

author: andtfoot
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2014, 02:46:29 am
content: As an AV integrator, 'smart' TVs are the bane of my existence.As a home user... I dunno. I only watch TV a couple of times a year at most, and I've always had a PC sitting nearby anyway.

author: JohnWard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2014, 06:00:34 pm
content: I've seen a few, and wasn't impressed generally.The worst was a customer's LG one - a very expensive and large screen size, top of the line thing, which had both terrestrial and satellite tuners built in.It had the wave in the air pointer thing as well - which apparently isessentialto access certain menu functions, you can't use the standard remote for some of the menus, but you can for others.However the biggest bust was the satellite tuner. For those that do not live in the UK, there is a service here called Freesat, which as the name implies means you just buy a receiver, connect to appropriate dish and you get 200+ channels free, with the usual on screen guide, program information, channel numbers that match those published in tv guides etc - all standard stuff which you would expect.The LG thing can receive all of those channels - but evidently they did not pay for the Freesat logo or something, as all of the channels have apparently random numbers, are in a random order, there is no on screen guide or information, and they are interspersed with vast numbers of others which are either unusable due to encryption, in other languages or are bizarre 'test' things which are obviously not intended for viewing.Initially it was thought there must be some incorrect setting or similar - but no, on contacting the manufacturer they confirmed the sat receiver is NOT a Freesat one, and is therefore pretty much useless.It is possible to go through the list and reorder them, deleting those not wanted, but this takes forever.Then, when some firmware update is automatically applied - that's right, all of those changes you made are gone.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2014, 07:14:43 pm
content: I have one of those LG 46" TV's with the "Magic remote" , and 3D and ... Quality of picture is fine but ....I bought it instead of my usually Samsung's dur to the "Bad Caps" on the Sammy's.I have bitterly regretted it , as it's prob. 100 times easier to have a TV with working firmware , and then replace a few caps every 3'rd year.I can only agree that it resets it's user defined channel list.But what's even worse is that the "Favorite list" selected , just works for that "selection" , an you're back at the global list on next selection.The last firmware update forced you to agree to LG using your channel selections , or a lot of the extra features would not be activated.Never LG again.OTOH. last year i bought a 50" Sammy 5K series for less than half of the LG , and it's working excellent./Bingo

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2014, 10:13:43 pm
content: Quote from: kingofkya on August 08, 2014, 09:22:30 pmSet top boxes aren't exactly a life-saver either:I tried WD-TV LivePlus boxes and I liked it. I saw on their forum fairly frequent updates with bug fixes.So, I excused the bugs expecting eventual fix and I "standardized" my setup with multiple WD-TV LivePlus boxes. By that time, updates kept coming for just a few months - some were bug fixes, some were new features such as support for what appears to be a new Netflix API. Most new features are to highlight/support new partners.One day, without announcement, you realized the last update you got 6 months ago was the last update you will ever see. The forum thread disappeared. On the support page - the "latest" update which was January 2013 update. All the promised bug fixes... Well...The boxes are still useful (Netflix HD streaming, network fileshared for DVD's and BlueRay...) but I will just have to live with the annoying bugs while expecting perhaps NetFlix may one day no longer work when they change their API again.That said, the box now is our main "entertainment" with Netflix Instance. I have found nothing worth watching on TV anymore. I got rid of cable and I am in a valley without reception to broadcast TV. My daughter felt she must be the only one without TV. While I was helping out in one of her school clubs, listening in a conversation between students, the kid commented: "You too? We don't have TV at home anymore either..."

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2014, 10:40:54 pm
content: Quote from: JohnWard on August 09, 2014, 06:00:34 pmAustralia is introducing a similar system with their "freeview" DVB-T variant, users won't be able to get the program guide unless the device manufacturer agrees to apply limits and controls to what the user can do. Mentioned previously in this thread is the main one: the device if it records free to air TV streams it must not allow that recording to be played back on or transferred to another device.Also due to the commercial TV operators in Australia having investments in pay TV channels, our roll out of digital TV saw no extra features or useful channels added, and there are mysteriously no advertisements on TV for PVR devices. Many people in Australia are still amazed when you show them time slipping or simultaneous rerecording and playback which have been the fundamental features of PVRs, all they saw advertised were dumb single tuner set top boxes, and now single tuner "smart TVs" that don't even compare to the lower end PVRs.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2014, 01:48:06 am
content: I have a 50'' Sony 3D TV, and may be using 1% of the "smart" features. The biggest problem to me is all this shit is very difficult to navigate. It is very difficult to navigate, I want to repeat, you sit with that TV remote pushing little buttons and swearing, one wrong button pushed and the damn thing exits to TV mode and you have to start over. Hate it. The browser is a joke. I only ended up using something that does not require much button pushing, watching some Internet TV channels and video playing via USB (I connect a USB stick with MP4 files to the TV). Out of everything else that is left I would say it may be useful when buying to make sure the TV can properly display standard computer screen resolution modes without scaling or that kind of crap. Then can be used as a side display in some cases.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2014, 09:33:44 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on August 09, 2014, 10:13:43 pmI've been through more STB's than I care to court. All of them without exception have had horrible buggy firmware.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2014, 11:12:07 am
content: I have a Samsung D series - I have seen a couple of grumbles on the web about reliability for this series but I've had no problems. 3xHDMI in plus built-in wi-fi for the Internet features plus a couple of analogue inputs.On the whole it's OK, the "Smart Hub" part has the standard on-line viewing apps from the major UK channels (IPlayer, ITV player 4OnDemand and the channel 5 one) which we use quite a lot. We also occasionally use the YouTube app and slightly less occasionally use the Internet Radio app which is (I think) the only one I actually installed rather than being pre-loaded.It has a web browser but I've never seen the point - especially as the method for entering the URLs essentially renders that feature totally unusable.It can be used with a DLNA server which is a feature we use a lot and is easily the most useful feature of the TV. I use minidlna on my main Linux server which has my entire CD collection and a substantial fraction of the DVD collection on it.With an external USB drive it supports PVR functionality and can pause live TV. I've never recorded anything on the set but the timeshift function is useful for skipping ads or not missing the odd interesting programme which clashes with mealtimes (our meals are taken as a family away from the TV whenever possible).It's 3D but I only have useful sight in on eye and it didn't come with glasses so, meh, basically.Like most things it could be better, only one tuner so the PVR is useless - it can't even record a different channel from the same multiplex as you are watching and it can't record TV while you watch another input. Also you can't copy recordings as they are encrypted and only play back on the same TV that they were recorded on. That at least has a work-around as the TV itself runs Linux and there a bit of a community dedicated to hacking the Samsung TVs over atwww.sammygo.tvAlso despite having bluetooth (for the 3D specs) it doesnt support a bluetooth keyboard from any of the smart feature -Oh, and the built-in wifi is so weedy that I had to move the AP into the same room to get enough speed to actually stream stuff to the TVThe bottom line, I suppose, is that I'd buy another one if I can't fix this one when it's capacitors fail.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2014, 05:32:58 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 10, 2014, 05:30:34 pmThe GPU inside every modern PC can be used for that purpose. The Nvidia cards support VDPAU, which can optionally deinterlace interlaced content.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2014, 05:58:56 pm
content: Maybe all that processing is necessary for analog reception (over here that has been taken down) but digital broadcasting is just a form of MPEG compression so what you need is a MPEG decompressor and a display to make a TV.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2014, 06:59:42 pm
content: In the US, 1920x1080 is sent interlaced. Which is really a bad decision as interlacing was no longer a necessary evil when digital started becoming practical.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2014, 07:02:51 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 10, 2014, 05:32:32 pmHave you run something like Wireshark on the link to confirm that it isn't calling home? I'm sure that Panasonic didn't write the code and it wouldn't be the first time that a vendor didn't fully understand what was going on.Ed

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2014, 12:57:36 am
content: Quote from: edpalmer42 on August 10, 2014, 07:02:51 pmI wish network "wires" works like voltage "wires".- As simple as putting in a diode, you are sure your current goes only one way. So just insert a diode and you are sure no data is going out. Just the movie or webpages coming in... (yeah, I know at least the URL must go out, but I am day dreaming...)- As simple as putting a capacitor, all the noise (junk male, unwanted pages, unwanted ads) gone to ground leaving a much cleaner DC voltage (the thing you want to read).Of course it an't that simple... But...

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2014, 03:56:47 pm
content: All,SMART Tv's are rubbish, mostly the GUI is slow, limited and locked-in. Yeucchhhh.I used to have a PC below my Tv running MediaPortal (Win7) and with a couple of DVB-S cards. A true media centre running everything from SKY Tv to my movie/photo/mp3 collection etc etc.Recently changed over to an OPPO BDP-103 and back to a SKY Tv set top box. The OPPO streams my videos & music direct from a NAS on my home Lan. Can also access online content etc......all in a nice professional looking GUI.After you play with that lot for a while you realize (my opinion anyways) that SMART Tv's are just rubbish. Wish I could have paid less for my 55" Samsung with the SMART stuff disabled!Ian.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2014, 09:09:38 pm
content: We don't use any of the smart crap on our Panasonic Viera tv; the most important thing to me is a nice clean on-screen channel guide UI.

author: JohnWard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2014, 09:28:36 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 10, 2014, 05:38:04 pmIt's not mine, a customer purchased it themselves, and asked for help in setting it up. Don't know the exact model either, this was a few months ago.The wrong mode thing was what I assumed initially - but on further inspection it didn't actually say Freesat on it - just that it had sat receiver built in. The manufacturer confirmed it was NOT freesat, and there was no option to have freesat on it either.If it was some cheapo model, then perhaps not too bad - but this was a top end model with every feature and they paid top money for it as well.In the end they obtained a Freesat receiver box and used that.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2014, 09:54:50 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 11, 2014, 08:14:21 pmSo basically what you are saying is that a 'TV' is more capable of putting gold plating on a turd?If HD looks very poor then it is time to cancel the subscription. The HD stuff I get over the internet is sharp without artifacts.

author: aroby
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2014, 03:30:27 am
content: My samsung is very good. I forget the model, but it is very thin, glass around the edges. We don't really use many of the smart functions. The amazon client worked for a while but now won't play anything. The netflix client works fine. The dlna client has a very clunky ui but works fine and we use that most for streaming off a nas. I have a wired connection so haven't tried wifi. I'd like google hang outs, but I think all the libraries are from yahoo so not likely to see that soon. And the YouTube client works well.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2014, 01:19:49 pm
content: Generally speaking - yes, SMART products are crap.Dave and others on here have a distinctly different idea of what SMART means in technology!YouTube have a clever tool that allows yiu to use your phone/desktop to delive streams to your enabled TV - beats crowding around your 5-inch screen, or using the TV remote to find clips on the telly. This is part of the IoT, but while there are proprietary money pits before standards, the promise will always be in the future. DLNA is another half-baked product, hampered by copyright eagles.The best thing about net connectivity is firmware updates, and stuff like Panasonic's integrated DVR control. Otherwise you are simply following the rose petals to the vendor's garden of profit.Access to cloud based services is exactly that. - without a decent user interface.In the past I would have not looked past Sony (until about 10-15 years ago), but noiwadays I'll say Panasonic retali AV is very consistent and capable. (I was Chf Eng for Sony Broadcast & Professional overseas at that time).CLOUD - Centralised Lock On User's Data.And don't forget the OFC cables we didn't use in the studios!

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2014, 01:54:29 pm
content: Good to see the privacy issue mentioned already; I want to watch my TV,not the other way around!They're basically a locked-down computer with a monitor and tuner attached, it would be better to build your own if you want to avoid some of the more insane "features" of the firmware - and of course the spying.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2014, 03:14:12 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 12, 2014, 10:30:34 amAlmost anything from P*rateb*y using 1GB for 45minutes of video (usually 720p).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2014, 08:13:20 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 12, 2014, 03:25:19 pmMy holiday photos look good on my monitor so there is nothing wrong with the adjustments. Maybe you got used to oversaturated colors or maybe I use better software to play video (I see it does some gamma correction but also allows to change a gazillion of other options).

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2014, 08:30:22 pm
content: Smart TVs are crap. They all seem to have bad user interfaces which talk to an overcomplicated remote. And you never know if they'll be updated when a new service comes along, or if a service goes away.I've got a Core 2 Duo Mac mini under a Toshiba non-smart TV. It plays DVDs and CDs, streams from all of the services and plays iTunes stuff. I bought an EyeTV One to watch and record OTA digital broadcasts (which actually look pretty great). A big hard drive is attached via FireWire for the recording and the downloads. It has a real keyboard and mouse (Bluetooth) for control. My kid and I can play video games with standard Bluetooth PS3 controllers. And I can "Back To My Mac" to set up recording or whatever.I'm not even convinced that it's a more expensive set-up than a Smart TV and a cable box. We shitcanned the cable TV subscription a few years ago, and the money we saved paid for the Mac mini in less than a year.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2014, 09:38:55 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 12, 2014, 03:27:10 pmDLNA is just a transport / network layer , it's the matter of the player in the TV to play the content. some TVs will play any "backup copy" of a movie, some of them not (my LG plays anything except weird combinations of audio/video codecs or codecs used in a inappropriate container).btw a usable alternative for the "smart" features is a android dongle connected to a TV (i have a evolveo X2 with that fly-mouse/keyboard combo) for browsing, games and media center. or if you got deep pockets then intel NUC or any other full-blown mini PC (preferably with a vesa mount).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2014, 10:58:55 am
content: Don't buy a Samsung smart LED-LCD TV. The LCD panel reliability is terrible. On BadCaps forum, we see tons of 2011 & 2012 models failing now, and just recently, the first 2013 panel failure. All for no apparent cause. Hardly any LG & Panasonic etc panels failing.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2014, 02:08:52 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 13, 2014, 09:49:22 amOn the other hand, while I can discern clearly BlueRay verses plain old DVD movie, however, it never prompted me to upgrade.I can see the better picture quality, but it really doesn't add to the "viewing experience" for me. They are just not worth the $ for me.

author: Bryan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2014, 11:38:28 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 13, 2014, 09:51:22 amWhat I have been doing for the last year and works great. The PI sometimes lags in speed, but rarely have I had the thing crash using Raspbmc as the software.http://www.raspbmc.com/

author: ignator
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2014, 04:03:31 pm
content: Per Dave's requirement list- Watch regular digital TVI don't know if your equivalent of the FCC requires that stations transmit the EPG (electronic program guide) information, but the US FCC requires all stations to transmit this. However there is no requirement to display this via the TV standalone. As I'm an over the air OTA user, this is real handy. My last HDTV would display 12 hours of this as that's what they transmit. I found one TV vendor (VISIO) that would only display the current program's EPG, no future program info. To me this is the one feature that I would look for ensuring is operational. Our big box stores do not have the remote control available for any of the sets. This is the only way to test this by pressing the 'guide' button if it exists.And since they are not using OTA signals but a closed loop advertisement signal, there is no EPG to perform a validation test.Cable boxes do strip off the EPG data and display this during channel change, but I don't do cable or satellite.

author: calin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 04:37:35 am
content: Rant ON ->Smart TV's are absolute utter shite period ... encumbered system full of copyright junk and leaving you @ the hand of whatever company made them and those that they may be making business with. I may be a freedom zealot but this is the truth .. they are all in the business of controlling a feed you what to watch .. and they want to know what you watch so they can place that damn "natural dog food" ad right about when you are in the middle of watching your favorite program. Did anyone heard of the case of LG tellies calling back to mohter ship reporting what you watch .... see herehttp://www.engadget.com/2013/11/21/lg-admits-smart-tv-data-collection/.. Others let you watch only their filtered content ... no youtube no this not that .. Yeah I want to watch Dave on my big ass 65' incher in full HD<- Rant OFFNow here is what I did ... spend the money on a nice tv set ... best image .. the dumbest you can find. Buy a under 100$ Android ARM stick from china and use that with XBMC thrown on it you have everything @ you hand . That is my setup .. i wnt through smart tv, roku .. visio smart tv ..all absolute junk. One does netfilx, other does not to YouTube blah .. Get something you can control period. I have an 1995 Pioneer Kuro Plasma with one of these hooked to it and my kids are loving it .. Finally something that actually we can watch what we want.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 05:58:52 am
content: I handed out a couple Android devices and they are cheap and easy to operate.

author: andtfoot
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 10:25:53 am
content: I bought an LG plasma (50PZ650) because it is/was one of the few consumer TVs with an RS-232 port (control port, not just a 'service port'). It just happened to have 'smart' rubbish on it because there wasn't any choice otherwise. I've never tried the 'smart' stuff on my one, but it least it doesn't force it down your throat.<rant>I came across one of the newer LG LED thingies on a job recently. Not only was there no RS-232 port, but the Ethernet didn't allow control, USB->RS-232 didn't allow power on commands, the CEC codes don't even follow the standard, and there is not even an IR sensor. The silly RF, magic voodoo, secret squirrel, etc remote of over-simplification meant it took a good 30 minutes just to get through the menu options, (especially when you factor in the lag, and the 5-10 seconds it took stuck on a loading screen everytime you brought up the menu).Basic setup options were missing (like auto power on/off on source presence) which didn't help.Not buying one of thooose in a hurry.</rant>

author: nihilism
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 11:11:26 am
content: I'd recommended Panasonic. Out of all of the ones i've seen they seem to be the least evil. Samsung's always seem to be slow, even just changing channels.I'm also involved in the commercial av installation industry. I've seen and played with a lot of these TV's.

author: WarSim
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 11:45:30 am
content: Completely disregard the smart tv issue if you are not interested in it.I personally researched the LCDs used in the various tvs. Then searched for the best price containing the screens and processors that met my requirements.As it turned out my cheapest option was a smart tv. Yes the same screen and processor in a tv without the smart features was $480 more. I tried using the smart features but they disappointed me. (There has been 3 updates since). I just use a PS3 and AppleTV. I use two because it seems one always wants to be updated at the most annoying times..I didn't research the boot up time before purchase. My tv starts up in 2 seconds I have no idea if that is considered long or not.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 05:53:21 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 18, 2014, 07:54:27 amRegarding televsions, there are only two parameters of interest to the average (read: unknowing) consumer: price and display size. They want the biggest TV for the smallest price. So things like image quality, design of the user interface, start-up time, all of that are secondary.Most people are too fucking stupid to even configure their TVs correctly. How many times have you seen a TV connected to standard-definition cable which has the aspect ratio completely wrong (the image stretched out in the horizontal)? Most people don't even realize that it's wrong.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 06:27:59 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 12, 2014, 03:25:19 pmTVs are more much more forgiving. That's just how it is. Has nothing to do with size, nor content. TVs are optimized in many ways for the display of video. PC monitors are not.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 06:50:45 pm
content: By the way, non-smart TVs can be found easily, and you won't find them anywhere that has a showroom unless it is a very large store that carries full lines.The apps of a smart TV sell that TV, and that means it will get floor space over a non-smart model. You'll have to talk to someone and order something "off the menu" or hit the internet and do some searching, and add functionality to the TV with external boxes and cables. The low-end models of any popular line are not "smart" and they won't be carried by retailers. They DO exist, though.A TV with an operating system is a very bad idea indeed, and the apps are not written for the consumer. They are written to sell TVs and to spy on the owner. There is zero motivation to write those apps properly or to secure them at all.

author: calin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 08:20:30 pm
content: Right on time .. see thishttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/08/18/feature_part_one_virgin_media_cable_tv_network_technology_server_to_the_sofa/?page=1Resistance if futile .. we will all be assimilated. That's how a "broadcast" station looks now ... forget the pipe coax thing that Dave has shown us a while ago. It's all fiber and CISCO routers now ...

author: WarSim
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 10:15:00 pm
content: Quote from: calin on August 18, 2014, 08:20:30 pmApparently too many old CISCO routers with low memory that can't handle what we need them to do. Purposely generalized to avoid the discussion of the overly generalized public release of the current "internet problems"Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 10:28:00 pm
content: I did buy recently a Sony TV, KDL 48-W650whatever. I must say, it is acceptable. The GUI is slow, and it is loaded with a thousand useless application, but you dont need to run them. I was able to remote it from my nexus 7, send a youtube directly there, access my PC videos, everything I wanted. But it always lacks something, which pisses me off. Looks like programmers are buzy making the YAIVF (yet another incompatible video format) which the TV doesnt play. Then you start installing services on your PC, teaking your NAS, poking a stick in you CD drive, but in the end, something is not working.Maybe I'm a power user, who wants too much.Like when you remote control it on your tablet, show me the buttons for the active screen, not just something general. Load more than 3 youtube thumbnails and make it faster. Play MKV. There are videos it doesnt play from networ, but it plays them if you copy it on a flash drive. Time interpolation doesnt work if you do this and that.I'm not saying it is bad. This is the 21 century, we have air conditioning but we cannot use it correctly, and software is crap.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2014, 07:06:38 am
content: Dave,I'm going through the same thing at the moment. All I want is a high quality display that will last. I couldn't care less about the smart features. I don't want to be upgrading it in 5 years time.Basically I'll be driving everything (including live TV) through an XBMC Media Centre machine. The only thing going to the TV will be a HDMI lead. If something new comes out, I just upgrade the box. 99% of my viewing is already stored on my file server and I can play any file format I need.I've basically settled with a Sharp LCD. Great quality, not a bad price and no bullshit.

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2014, 11:25:38 am
content: I'll chip in with some anecdotal information.My sons Panasonic smart TV "fell over" yesterday, all HDMI sockets do not function.Two years old and no extended warranty, argg.Lucky I started buying service tools etc I thought, much 0402 and not for someone not up to speed.Got a used board for it yesterday (found a local one!), will fit it today and keep the old board as everything else on it still works.There is no deep meaning to this other than added complexity without cost can raise the failure rate, and the cheaper end of the scale (that I can afford) seems to last less each purchase.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2014, 05:05:48 pm
content: QuoteIf actually < 2years then EU warranties on electronic goods have had to be two years for a while so you might be either OK or able to argue that it should be a warranty repair.If just > 2 years then Sales of Goods might still give you some mileage.

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2014, 05:17:22 pm
content: Cheers Doc, unfortunately the gaming PC and my son are not that patient a combination!.Haggling about CGA takes time and still incurs a cost sometimes.£30 for the main board is not so bad... as long as it works :eek:To top it off, my audio-interface just fell over!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 12:20:18 pm
content: Thanks for all the input everyone.I finally got a 60" Sony KDL60W600Bhttp://www.sony.com.au/product/kdl-60w600band matching Sony Bluray player.I must say that I'm pretty impressed.Works a treat, easy to setup and fairly easy to use.Connected to my networked drive without issues, and plays USB HD files no problems so far.I like the apps system, and the YoutubeTV works a treat.Nice integration with the Blueray player, TV remote can operate both and auto switches over and displays when a disc is inserted.I was on holidays a few weeks back and had a big Samsung smart TV there and was not impressed with the way it worked, the Sony is a much nicer experience.Also got a Yamaha sound bar and that works surprisingly well.http://au.yamaha.com/en/products/audio-visual/dvd-players/yas-101b/?mode=modelVery neat and tidy, zero clutter or floor space, and wife approved. Not quite as good as my previous proper surround sound system of course, but really the difference isn't that huge. For the mess is saves, it's well worth the small compromise in audio performance.And it operates with the Sony remote, so one remote now to do everything (had 4 remotes before), without it having to be one of those clunky universal remotes, very nice.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 12:33:33 pm
content: Even though electronics is a hobby for me, life is too short to spend too much time connecting up a TV/sound system!

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 12:48:14 pm
content: Have fun with it.My opinion is that a tv should only be a very very good display capable of displaying all possible frequencies and resolutions upto the native resolution and nothing more. For the rest you buy a dedicated device capable of doing what you want.Yeah I bought just for watching the news (and the wife her tv series) a new Samsung. And yeah it plays mediafiles. So one day I thought lets test the bugger and took one of my harddisks out of my hometheater and started testing. It plays a lot of files but not everything. Blurays no go, HD soundtracks no go (annoying noise). So pretty useless for a movie freak.I am bit biased with my 94" screen, Sony HW-55 projector, Onkyo processor and Classe amplifiers but I stick to a display or projector should do its job and nothing more. If you want to internet, add a laptop or Google TV, you want to watch mediafiles, add a mediaplayer, want to watch dvd's/blurays , add a bluray player.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 01:15:51 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 18, 2014, 12:48:14 pmThis Sony smart TV (so far) doesexactlywhat I want.QuoteThe Sony TV seems to work just fine for me, so far.Yeah there might be something it doesn't play, but no media player I've ever used is perfect either.And a separate media box is just messy, the smart TV has one remote to do everything, no mess, no fuss, nothing else to power and down and muck around with, it just works.QuoteOf course, got that. As a backup it is also media player and can play USB files and also connect to my networked media drive.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 01:53:02 pm
content: Yeah I get it and probably will do for some years for your family so I don't judge your decision, I judge the tv industry decision.My whole point is that an all-in-one solution has its problems, if not now, then in the near future (new standards) and the only way to upgrade is to buy another all-in-one device again. Not so good for the consumer, only good for the tv manufacturers.And that is the whole reason they now exist, tv manufacturers could not find new things to sell more new tv's every two years.They came up with some gizmo's like 3D and full HD but now every tv has that so what's next? 4k (not needed), OLED (not that good for now but will be soon), smart tv, smarter tv, supersmart tv. The tv business has serious problems, their profits are falling big time with the new chinese competitors, even Samsung has problems now. And not surprising, most 42 inch Samsung tv's sell for less then an 10 inch Ipad, makes you wonder.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 01:57:01 pm
content: Complexity is the enemy of reliability.I won't be buying a smart TV unless it is literally the only option available to me. Even in that case, NOT buying a TV is an option, and that is the more likely of the two, for me.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 02:00:18 pm
content: Smart TV functions just doesn't cost enough to be an issue, except on low end TVs. We just paid about US$2.5k for a 55" 4k smart TV. It isn't even offered without the smart TV stuff, but it would only be 20 or 30 dollars less if it was. That's less that the uncertainty in negotiating a discounted price. The only complexity it adds in an ethernet port and a wifi chip. Everything else is used in the non-smart TVs. If the smart functions become outdated during the life of the TV we will simply use an external box.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 02:40:50 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 18, 2014, 02:00:18 pmIn the US, Walmart has a 50" Seiki 4K for $450. At that price, you could build a very good PC to go with it (complete with SLI GPUs) and still end up cheaper.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 02:58:08 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on September 18, 2014, 01:57:01 pmSame here, we already have one. ;-)

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 03:05:44 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 18, 2014, 01:15:51 pmWe are using a separate media box (Sony Google TV) and it's quite simple. It's remote control controls everything, the TV (Samsung), sound system (Sony) and the TIVO box (DVR and live cable), and we can watch Netlfix, Youtube, Amazon, CSPAN and having a general browser.Simplicity was a key design goal when we selected the components.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 04:41:19 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 18, 2014, 02:40:50 pmThe Seiki TVs are great value, but you can't compare their picture quality with an expensive TV. I think they still lack HDMI 2.0 inputs, so you can't even get a decent frame rate into them.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 06:24:53 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 18, 2014, 01:15:51 pmJust a quick tip: I've found that I can play practically everything after I've installed "Universal media server"on my pc. There wasnt a single video with a problem after I set up the codec properly. I cannot wait, Netflix is finally coming to belgium.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 01:28:11 am
content: Quote from: coppice on September 18, 2014, 04:41:19 pmDespite the low price, the Seiki is S-MVA, not TN. S-IPS is only slightly better than S-MVA, likely not worth the price premium except in professional photo editing.Getting a decent framerate at 4K is asking a lot for current GPUs and even the upcoming ones. For that reason, 4K isn't very popular with gamers at this time. (And current GPUs don't support HDMI 2.0, but the 980/970 is supposed to fix that.)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2014, 10:21:04 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 18, 2014, 01:15:51 pmWhat's the image like with non-HD material?There's always the tradeoff with viewing distance: right distance for non-HD (the majority) means you can't resolve HD detail, whereas right distance for HD means non-HD might look blocky or something akin to blurred.What's the update/reflash mechanism? (e.g in case the distro contains bash?)Are you going to bother to check whether it "phones home" with your viewing habits etc?(And if I'm feeling mischevious and it is a Sony, does it attempt to install rootkits on any othe media players?)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2014, 05:07:59 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on September 30, 2014, 03:47:43 pmI'll be able to move on when most of the material I view is HD - until then "moving on" is merely a pious exhortation.QuoteThus 90% of the SD material will be annoying, if Sturgeon's Law is to be believed. Personally w.r.t. TV, I thing Sturgeon's Law is grossly optimistic

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 07:09:24 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 01, 2014, 09:14:03 amI don't see why "classic stuff in SD" would have a better picture than "non-classic stuff in SD", which is the implication from your last few posts. I quite understand that you are prepared to overlook a poor viewing experience if youlike the material.But that wasn't the question, and so is unhelpful.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 11:56:10 pm
content: The worst part of CRT TVs was the 60Hz flicker. Now that LCD has made that a thing of the past, they should have also ditched interlacing and nonintegral framerates with the move to HD. I do agree that good quality 480p video can look very good indeed, as many YouTube videos show. It all depends on whether or not the content would truly benefit from more resolution.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 12:06:44 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 30, 2014, 10:21:04 amLooks fantastic and better than on standard def. Does a good job with up-scaling.BTW, I was stunned at the detail and clarity of the BTTF Bluray version

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 03:17:08 pm
content: Possibly with it having had fewer copies made from it it was better preserved, or it had been stored in a better location. IIRC they used a cinema projection film to get the Star Wars digital edition, as they had either misplaced or damaged all the masters.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 03:44:10 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 03, 2014, 12:06:44 amI find results vary a lot. Good clean material, which has not suffered from excessive compression, scales beautifully to 4k, with much smoother curves and diagonals than displaying the same material at its original resolution. However, a lot of heavily compressed material looks awful, and the only way to make it more viewable is to display a smaller version.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 07:18:26 pm
content: I was impressed by the James Bond blurays esp the old ones with Sean Connery, they look great, reason was once they were scanned/transferred to the digital domain a whole team of graphic specialists looked frame for frame for dust/hairs/scratches etc. and polished them clean away with their graphic tools. They even had a shot were you could see the director and cameraman in a mirror and took them out, you can argue about that if that is a bit too far for the purists.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 07:40:32 pm
content: I remember the original and the redo, which was marred by massive colour shifts at the end. The original I saw on a 3 storey screen, complete with a then new Dolby Surround system, cranked up to 10. After a week it was down to 5, the neighbours complained about pictures falling off the walls. If you have 6m high surround speaker boxes, and a lot of them, you might get that.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 08:01:31 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 03, 2014, 12:06:44 amThe same goes for 'The good, the bad & the ugly'. Unfortunately it now is easy to tell when the background is a painted curtain or when they where filming out in the open.