Rigol DS4024 opinions - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 06:48:49 am
content: I think I have narrowed down my choices amongst the Rigol scope to either the DS 4024 or 4022. Im willing to spend around 3k, give or take.Before I take the plunge, I thought I would check if these are a good choice, as I found some references to firmware bugs, however those opinions are now years old.These 4000 series come bundled with a 350MHz and serial decode upgrade.I mainly use the scope for audio and general use (power supplies, microcontrollers etc), so while the bandwidth is overkill for audio, the sample rate and sample memory is good for capturing single shot events.Are there some good places in Australia for purchasing scopes? I'm aware of Emona, but that limits the choices to Rigol.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 07:17:43 am
content: Have a look at what Trio Test have to offer.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 08:49:19 am
content: Rigol DS4000/MSO4000 is an outdated platform on which not many new software updates will follow!Probably better to focus on the new Rigol DS7000/MSO7000 series!

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 08:57:50 am
content: If you deliberately want a DS4000 series instrument and you don't mind "improving" it a little, just get the DS4014 and use "riglol". You can crank it up to the 500MHz version.As Pascal told, the 4000 series is rather old and I wouldn't expect any significant firmware improvements anymore (not that there are many bugs left, but there are so many functions that are solved better even on the entry level DS1000Z series). Concerning the basic functions of a digital oscilloscope, it's a real performer though.Nevertheless, especially since you're specifying audio stuff as one of your primary applications, you may want to have a look at one of the 10 bit Rohde&Schwarz machines, their higher resoloution may make a big difference. And they are recently released instruments with several new approaches.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 09:30:19 am
content: Quote from: TurboTom on October 02, 2018, 08:57:50 amI agree with Tom, RTB2000 series might be much better for the purpose. And could be had for that kind of money. Only thing it doesn't have is 50 OHm inputs, but you might not need them ...

author: trukresom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 10:23:56 am
content: I am owner of 5 Rigol Instruments a DS4054, DSA815-TG, DG4162, DG1062Z and a DM3068.The DS4054 is by far the instrument which I regret having bought for the followingreasons:- Compared to other scopes the trace noise is excessive. Sensitivities below10 mV/div make only sense with averaging.- Just at the end of the warranty period, the buttons [Run/Stop] and ceased to work.- In approx. 30% of the cases after power-on the scope enters a state where nearlyall knobs show an erratic behaviour. For example turning the timebase knob inboth directions lowers the time/div to finally stuck at 1ns/div.Same for vertical sensitivity.- In many cases when I connect a 10x probe (RP3500) it is not recognized correctly.Sometimes the input even switches to 50 Ohms.

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 10:36:20 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 02, 2018, 09:30:19 amI use these:https://www.rfshop.co.uk/index.php/feed-through-terminations/feed-through-terminations-bnc-50ohm-1mohm-f-bmbf0-1g2w50.htmlwww.jyebao.com.tw/upload/F-BMBF0-1G2W50.pdfOr:https://www.picotech.com/accessories/bnc-terminators-leads/50r-terminator-bnc

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 11:04:22 am
content: Quote from: MrW0lf on October 02, 2018, 10:36:20 amOf course you can use pass-trough terminators. An it is fine for lower frequencies. But once you pass 100 MHz they are nowhere close to being the same as a native well made 50 Ohm input.And for OP's use they might be just enough when needed. Which for audio use won't be too often or never.

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 11:30:16 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 02, 2018, 11:04:22 amI know you know...But... for starters it needs to be scientifically proven that Rigol native > Made in Taiwan. I cannot even find 50Ω max voltage/wattage rating in Rigol spec which isvery important. Most of us are not used to think about the fact that you are dissipating RF powerinside scopewhen using native 50Ω. So it might beif yank RF gen throttle to "full military power".Edit: Found it, on front panel it says 5V RMS. Modest 0.5W then and not clear if have any sort of protection.Edit2: Looking at some other scope specs:Scope X: Overvoltage protection: 5.5 V RMS (50 Ω inputs)Scope Y: Maximum input voltage: 5 V (RMS), max. 30 V (Vp)Rigol 7000: 50 Ω 5 VrmsI do like when s**t's in the spec.It makes me sort of nervous that spec of 7000 finally looks like normal spec for normal scope. Maybe will even pass my 32768Hz torture test...

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 12:36:56 pm
content: They will all be about same 5V ...You have to put attenuator in the front.. Which has to be properly power rated too by the way.. Which I know you know .....50 Ohm inputs are not needed most of the time...Quote from: MrW0lf on October 02, 2018, 11:30:16 amI always figured you would be the first one to say it like it is.. Good or bad, just facts.If it's good , that is great news for everyone.. More choice, more competition. I want it it to be good. And new Siglent that will be released, I hope that one is great too..That is great for us.Regards

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 12:51:53 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 02, 2018, 12:36:56 pmI know you know I know...However, what I do not know is "overvoltage protection" also common or you just fry it? Also if you workalmostat abuse level for long time would heated up 50Ω resistor change input characteristics eg maybe heat up other crap around it etc... Hm... Somehow I like concept of external pass thru more at least for moderate freq range.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 01:16:34 pm
content: Quote from: MrW0lf on October 02, 2018, 12:51:53 pmNope, you pretty much just fry it... It will have some ESD resilience, much better that SA that are notorious for damaging inputs if you look it wrong...Some scopes will kick you out of 50 Ohm mode if you go for higher V/div, or on a overrange.. That serves as a protection of a sort..

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 03:48:35 pm
content: FYI, here's just a quick comparison of my "MSO4014+" (500MHz) internal vs. external 50 Ohms termination (Chinese BNC-Through terminator with 3*150 Ohms 1210 resistors in parallel), fed with a square wave signal with <50ps rise time (heritage of Leo Bodnar). First I tested without bandwidth limitation and then again with a 200MHz limit since this was the "class" of oscilloscope that the OP was refering to. The screenshots with the feed-through terminator have the corresponding trace of the internal terminator as a reference in the background.Unfortunately, my VNA currently is borrowed to a friend so I cannot check the performance of the external terminator, yet a quick test with my SSA3000X also reveals part of the (sad) truth: The SSA had been normalized with the return loss bridge prior to the tests. Trace A resembles a measurement with a Minicircuits SMA termniator directly at the test port of the RLB. Trace B is the BNC-through terminator, directly attached via a SMA/BNC adapter (no cable in between). Up to about 200MHz, it at least stays in the ballpark of the Minicircuits terminator. Trace C shows the same configuration as in trace B, but now connected to input A of my MSO4000 (1MOhm configuration -- well). Trace D resembles the input of the MSO configured to 50 Ohms and the BNC-through terminator removed. Depending on the range switch of the scope input, return loss may vary. The trace shown is one of the better results...It seems that the feed-through terminator is fairly usable up to 100Mhz and with some compromise, to 200MHz. Above this, ...meh...Depending on the quality of the feed-through terminator, you may get better results. But the input capacity of the (average) scope will mess up the return loss of even the most accurate terminator. I guess for proper upper VHF performance, you need a scope with a front-end particularly made for that.Hope this makes sense....Cheers,Thomas

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 06:13:53 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 02, 2018, 09:30:19 amSame here. I looked at the DS4000 myself as well but based on all the issues (and no fixes) reported by people on this forum it seems more like abandonware.

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 07:37:32 pm
content: Quote from: TurboTom on October 02, 2018, 03:48:35 pmWould RF magician call your test "return loss" test, not "insertion loss" (just to be sure)?

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 09:25:28 pm
content: @MrWolfSince I considered the 'scope input (either internally terminated or high-impedance and equipped with the BNC feed-through terminator) as a "black box" thatshouldrepresent a good 50 Ohms termination, I'ld call it a return loss test. The measured level simply represents the amount of reflected power in relation to the injected power of that "black box". One has to consider that the directivity of my bridge itself, terminated with the Minicircuits SMA terminator, is limited to approx. 33dB at 1GHz so figures better than this cannot be resolved. Yet, since the figures I found were way worse than that, I consider the results fairly accurate.I hope I interpreted your question correctly...

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 09:38:50 pm
content: Well, lets put aside the audio application for the moment. For the moment the bigger priority would be single shot capturing as I only have a CRO. So I'm also willing to look at the DS1000 or 2000 series. I can always spend more and get more scopes later

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 09:42:02 pm
content: Quote from: TurboTom on October 02, 2018, 09:25:28 pmThink yes, I just do not deal with UHF daily (yet) and got confused because initial runs with SNA were somewhat unexpected. Anyway game is on, I like producing graphs...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 09:53:15 pm
content: Quote from: John B on October 02, 2018, 09:38:50 pmThen look at the GW Instek GDS-2000E scopes. Mature firmware (and if a bug is found it gets fixed in a timely manner). These scopes also have low noise, input filtering and 1Mpts FFT which are nice features for audio purposes. One thing to look for is what an oscilloscope can actually do with deep memory. Things like searching for anomalies and calculations (math) on the actual waveform data and not on decimated data.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 10:00:47 pm
content: I have a DS4014 bought as a demo unit directly from Rigol and can say that, if the price is right (I bought it for quite a good price three years ago), it is an excellent scope. Granted, I didn't pay the DS4054 prices nor bought it early, where the bugs were quite blocking and were not fixed for a long time.The vast majority of criticism was warranted and, as you suspected, belonged to early releases of the firmware. It is a mature platform that is not updated anymore, but TBH all oscilloscopes will reach that point. The other hidden benefit is the ability to fully unlock it to get 500MHz with very decent decoders that run circles on its cheaper brothers (DS1000Z and DS2000)A few issues remain (the higher input noise is one of them) but the firmware is quite solid. I have no criticisms to the hardware as well - it has been working quite well over the years.Again, it is always a matter of price/performance. The DS7000 and the Rhode & Schwarz could be good options as well, but at this price point you will have a lot of models that fit the bill, even options from Keysight's eBay store. If used is an option, you could even look at some older but quite featured options.One additional detail: for audio you will not necessarily care for bandwidth - at this price point, 100MHz is quite enough for lots of applications.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 10:02:53 pm
content: Quote from: John B on October 02, 2018, 09:38:50 pmHow many channelsmustyou have ?If only 2 then a SDS1202X-E is an excellent choice, if 4 then SDS1104X-E is great too.Dave has done teardowns on each, check them out.

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 10:15:48 pm
content: Ok here goes... Measurements made with RF Explorer SNA. Return loss bridge is this:http://transverters-store.com/rf_bridge/rf_bridge.htmlI do not have second SMA terminator, only one went to bridge REF. SNA software does not offer much control so scale little erratic:BNC terminator, normalized at adapter:BNC pass thru terminator, normalized at different adapter:BNC pass thru terminator + 100MHz scope 1MΩ:What can say... Think "floor" at -30dBm might be caused by bridge itself... and my terminators are far from unusable at 500MHz. And Icanhavevery rough look at stuff up to 500MHz with my 100MHz scope...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2018, 12:36:21 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 02, 2018, 07:17:43 amSo did ya ?https://www.triotest.com.au/store/7-oscilloscopes

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2018, 12:58:38 am
content: I've got a 4024 I got as a demo unit from Rigol clearance a couple years back and I like the scope. A few quirks in the UI, a few lacking aspects (small, awkward FFT, slowdowns for serial decoding, loud fan), but it's overall a good scope and has served me well. That said, I paid a fair amount less than $3000 AUS when I got it, and I don't know why they're still priced so high from Rigol... I doubt they will be for very long because I think the 7000 series will just overtake them entirely.If you could get one for like $1500 or something, that could be a good find, but I'd have a hard time justifying $2000 or more on one because it's an older platform and because more modern instruments in the same general range just offer more performance and features. I think the suggestion to look at another more modern design midrange scope, wait for the price drop (of this or the 7000 series), or look towards a higher end older scope in a similar pricerange is probably the route I'd take if I were looking now. Not that I dislike the scope, but because it's a little aged and lacks in a few ways and I just think it's not priced to really be as good value in today's marketplace as it was maybe 4-5 years ago.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2018, 01:14:56 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 03, 2018, 12:36:21 amYes I did. Thanks all for the opinions, by all means keep them coming.I am mulling over the Siglent SDS2000 series as well, perhaps the SDS2204X.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2018, 02:02:48 am
content: Quote from: John B on October 03, 2018, 01:14:56 amSure the sampling speed is only half of the 4000 but check the SDS2kX memory depth, that unleashes the real power of a DSO.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2018, 05:50:24 am
content: Quote from: John B on October 03, 2018, 01:14:56 amDon't. These are old and they can't use the deep memory for several things (like hi-res) because they have no processing power at all. There are much better ways to spend the money.

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2018, 06:43:21 am
content: Maybe because I'm green at high MHz game but would have not expected input capacitances so high if compare to low-end scopeWhat would be the cause? Technical incapability, trying to support 100MHz probes, ...Rigol 4000: 15pF+-3pFRigol 7000:17pF+-3pFKeysight DSO 3000 X: 14pF+-1%R&S RTM3000: 14pF+-1pFTek 4000C: 13 pFSiglent SDS1004X-E: 15pF±2 pFQuote from: TurboTom on October 02, 2018, 03:48:35 pmWould ~10pF input qualify?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2018, 07:23:29 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 03, 2018, 05:50:24 amDon't ?What, settle for a lesser spec'ed GW 2000E, with half the sampling rate, less wfms/s and a fraction of the mem depth ?Yeah, right !Nico's experience with SDS2204 was before that series was upgraded with a totally new version of firmware and before they were further HW upgraded to the 2000X series of today.So he surely knows what he's talking about. Not.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2018, 07:52:54 am
content: An oscilloscope is way more than just memory depth and waveforms/s! What good does deep memory do if you can't decode it, you can't use it for math, can't use it in hi-res mode? Waveforms/s is just a marketing BS number.Here are the things the GDS2000E can do and the SDS2000(X) can not:- 1Mpts FFT- free form math- math on all waveform data- search all waveform data- save to PNG image format- adjustable input filtering (instead of hi-res on 1400 samples or so)- protocol decoding using the entire memory (instead of what is on screen)- data logging- have bugs fixed in a timely mannerBesides that the 500Ms/s samplerate on the GDS2000E is good enough for having 4 channels at 200MHz. With the 300MHz hack you'll get 2 channels capable of 300MHz with 1Gs/s.The SDS2000X series is seriously outdated due to lack of processing power. The newer low end Siglent models at least have some processing power under the hood to do something meaningfull with the acquired data.Maybe the GDS-2000E looks lesser on paper but for me it replaced an Agilent DSO7104A because it turned out to work better (as a general purpose oscilloscope) and easier to use.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2018, 11:19:40 am
content: Do we have to start again these "Scope Wars"? I think virtually all forum members know that there are some individuals among us with a strong emphasis towards a certain brand/model of oscilloscope, which is okay. But is it really necessary to start this dispute again in EVERY SINGLE thread that covers that sort of instrument, even if the OP's initial question was completely different? Just calm down a little and keep your temper! Thank you.

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2018, 12:11:57 pm
content: Quote from: TurboTom on October 03, 2018, 11:19:40 amSome individuals are also interested how come "500MHz" scopeinternal50Ω is only -15dB RL at 500MHz. I'm genuinely puzzled. You basically cannot even use some fancy active probe etc which with high probability would have 50Ω output. Or there is some else workaround?It was all so simple <100MHz

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2018, 05:33:47 pm
content: @ MrWolfyes you are right, at least partially. The 'scope may still produce accurate results even though it's not perfectly terminating the 50 Ohms "transmission line". The mismatch only means that some of the incident power will be reflected back into the line (BNC cable). If the source also isn't a good match to the line's impedance, there will be multiple refections and the measurement will be affected. If the source is a reasonably accurate impedance match to the line, the reflected power will be absorbed by the source.That's also the reason that it's always a good habit to use a (resistive) attenuator in front of an instrument since it will considerably improve the impedance match to the transmission line / source. On the other hand, especially in case of the "highly" capacitive input of the 'scope, it may form a low pass and affect the amplitude / phase accuracy. Some scopes use some kind of pre-emphasis when the input is configured to 50 Ohms to restore the signal, provided the source is accurately 50 Ohms resistive impedance. This may actually result in some distortion an low (audio) frequencies where usually high impedance probes get used. The DS4000 Series works this way, see the screenshots (no attenuator used, somehow my "nice ones" gone missing...).I configured output 1 of an SDG6000X AWG to be 50 Ohms, output 2 high impedance (actually, the output impedance of both outputs is always 50 Ohms, the difference is the way the amplitude is calculated). Both cannels are programmed to provide a square of 1Vpp of the same freqency. Output 1 is connected directly (via an RG316 coax cable) to channel 1 (50 Ohm) of the MSO4000, output 2 via a 10:1 (150MHz) probe with a BNC/probe adapter to channel 3 of the scope. I measured the probe capacitance at the tip to be almost exactly 15pF. The difference between the signal at three test frequencies (1kHz, 1MHz, 50MHz) is quite peculiar.

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2018, 06:30:28 pm
content: Quote from: TurboTom on October 03, 2018, 05:33:47 pmSpot on, and thanks for good testing, we need more graphs and screenshots not knitting club style chatter about how different knobs feel to touch. I've been playing my setup and. High-tech SMA terminator marked good to 6GHz was 48Ω. So I checked all my terminators and selected most accurate. Next I discovered that physical distance from DUT to port and from REF terminator to its port makes huge difference in my setup. Like 20dB better result difference. Just by adding some "unneeded" connectors. What if your setup has same issue eg scope terminator too far away from RF bridge? Seems it's a balancing act.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2018, 12:57:11 am
content: Quote from: TurboTom on October 03, 2018, 11:19:40 amI am getting a bit indecisive with all the back and forth. I think at this point I am willing to try the Siglent SDS2000 series. I don't imagine it's perfect, but it sits in a good middle ground of bandwith and memory depth, plus 4 channels are available (with 2Gs/s available on 2 out of 4 channels simultaneously if needed if I'm remembering correct). This is comparing it to the Rigol 2000 series (which don't have 4 channels at all?).To get into the Rigol 7000 series is going to be $3.5k and I find it a little patronising that all that hardware is there and it's just software limited to 100Mhz. 200Mhz will then bump it to $6k.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2018, 01:50:22 am
content: Quote from: John B on October 04, 2018, 12:57:11 amNo need to, there's just a longstanding dislike of Siglent equipment by Nico after a bad run he had with a very early SDS2204 (pre X series). He likes to get a dig in whenever he can and it shouldn't go unchallenged as he doesn't have Siglent scopes now yet claims he's some authority on them.QuoteI have a SDS2304X, fully optioned and it's a powerful scope with a large display and nice front panel layout and UI.If there's anything you'd like to know about them please ask.QuoteAll manufacturers do this, SW limit the HW.......to a point but then only minor HW changes are applied to increase the BW to the top models in a range.Hell, even long haul truck motors are SW limited and if you want more HP it costs more $.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2018, 06:20:07 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 04, 2018, 01:50:22 amSorry Tautech but you are misrepresenting the facts here (again). You know well enough I keep myself informed on oscilloscopes and I really don't need to own a particular model right now to have an opinion on it. Perhaps you should take an example from the people from Tektronix, R&S and Keysight present on this forum. Personal attacks are quite unprofessional. Better stick to the facts.Heck, I even mentioned the newer SDS1000X-E series which AFAIK has better FFT and bode plotting.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2018, 08:07:01 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 04, 2018, 06:20:07 amFacts are, the OP originally had done enough homework to envisage a DS4000 is what he wanted, therefore an 8" display and a healthy sampling rate is what he was prepared to shell out for and so not sell himself short into the future with an underspec'ed DSO.SDS1kX-E are an entry level DSO, 1/2 the sampling rate and a small fraction of the memory of the 2000X range and while the X-E have a lot of features the 2000X MSO package should he want it is in another class compared to the X-E range.With the 2000X inbuilt AWG there is the capability to do Bode plot but without the phase info the X-E offers but for much less cost that the external X-E AWG and with better specs.Power Analysis is another powerful feature the 2000X series offers despite your claims of inadequate processing power.When offering advice, yes we best stick to the facts, offer them and let the buyer decide, after all it's their money.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2018, 08:56:13 am
content: @JohnBAs I understood, this would be your first digital oscilloscope. I think it's a reasonable decision to go for a four channel machine. This would permit analyzing synchronous digital communications with separate transmit and receive lines (SPI for example). Since you mentioned microcontrollers / arduino stuff as one of your possible applications, you will likely need that. Alternatively, you could go for an instrument with two analog channels and an MSO option (logic analyzer) that provides protocol analysis on the digital lines. There's rarely the situation to really need more than two analog channels.Since the price differences are quite steep, my recommendation would be to go for an entry level model first (this would set you back by somewhere between 300 and 600 USD). There's the Siglent SDS1000X-E series which is quite a modern platform with a good performance. The Rigol DS1000Z has been a class of its own for several years but nowadays may look a little dated, yet still a versatile and very affordable four channel scope. The GW-Instek GDS1000B series may be an option but at least in Europe it's a good bit more pricy than the others and hence I never looked closer at it, especially since I'm (too) well equipped with scopes... If you later find that you need something more capable, you will know better what features in particular you are looking for. You can sell the entry level scope with little loss or just keep it as a back-up unit.To be honest, the instrument I still use the most, simply due to its very compact form factor, it's versatility and its lower weight, is my DS1054Z ("riglol'ed"). In at least 95% of the situations it's performing as good or better (more modern firmware) than my other "main" scope, the MSO4000 (also "improved"). A few years later, I couldn't resist a really good opportunity to get a DS2072A-S from Rigol EU Clearance Sales (must have been 625 EUR IIRC) to replace an ancient TDS220 in my mess of a "basement lab". I was lucky this scope contained the full MSO hardware, so it was an easy "fix"... Compared to the old TEK it replaces, it's miles ahead but to the others, well, it just fits in the range. It's quite surprising that on the DS1000Z, Rigol adressed the (previously) piss-poor FFT, added signal filtering (math) options and made the derivative (math) function at least usable by firmware updates, while on the "upper range platforms" - well, meh..., just bug fixing (no, wait, the protocol decodes do work on memory and not only screen contents and also in zoom and segmented mode).Business-wise, any of these scopes do serve me well (basically doing power, digital, analog and mixed signal control stuff, nothing high-speed, ultra-high-frequency or otherwise fancy), as probably would an SDS1000X-E or a GDS1000B or what not. The high bandwidth of the "liberated" MSO4000 is a fun thing (hobby, just like much of my other test gear...) but other than that, there's really little that this scope is doing better than the other models I've got. If I had to buy an oscilloscope for 3000+ EUR or USD today, I'ld probably have a close look at Rohde&Schwarz RTB2000 series, though I really hate that company for not offering the limited introductory version/pricing abroad...

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2018, 10:28:41 am
content: If serial decoding is required, one detail is that the GDS1000B series from Instek does not have this feature, which puts it quite behind the other models at the same price range.Regarding the decoders on the DS4000 series, it is no small difference from the other Rigol series that they perform the decoding operation from the entire memory and not only from what is shown on the screen, severely narrowing the usability of this feature. Fortunately the competition caught up and their lower ranges offer a better implemented solution.To the OP: I think that your choice of the SDS2000X series is a good choice, as well as the GDS2000E(not A) - you will get an excellent scope with many great features and well within your budget. The realfactis that the bickering between these nctnico and tautech is as ancient as the conflict of the middle east and has no solution in sight.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2018, 11:21:42 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 04, 2018, 10:28:41 amThe GDS1000B can be hacked to get decoding and more bandwidth which puts it in the same position as the Rigol DS1054Z.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2018, 11:42:19 am
content: Still it will look as ugly as before after the hacking! Nothing that can change that ugly look! Not even a hack

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2018, 01:02:03 pm
content: Screenshot for a changeThis discussion was very useful - it did not occur to me before to usebothprobe and passthrough for bandwidth measurement:Bodnar's pulser. Magenta is directly on scope BNC (1MΩ). Green is addition of passthrough and best is cyan trace of quite long probing snake: Probe + BNC adapter + F-F adapter + passthrough. Yet 0.35/2.2ns=159MHzAs for low frequency artefacts - could not reproduce, only very faint differences. Also did one try with SDG2122X and there direct connection of probe gives worst result. It has to be either PT at scope end or at signal gen directly on output before probe.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2018, 02:10:59 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 04, 2018, 11:21:42 amNico, it is a bit reckless to advertise that this platform actually supports decoding when the manufacturer says otherwise.From what I readthis is quite an incipient hack that may have been pulled either due to product positioning (to not eat away GDS2000E sales) or to simply malfunction. If you are 100% sure the oscilloscope supports that without issues, then I will eat my words, of course.On the other hand, Rigol and Siglent actually advertise decoding features.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2018, 07:53:20 pm
content: Just a bit more fuel that the OP may not know:The SDS2000X can also be hacked... to 300MHz (among other things).https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-hack/

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 10:17:01 pm
content: I thought I'd settled on an SDS2304X, but if I understand right, Ill get the 16 digital logic analysersoftware, but you still have to purchase the physical probe separately. For about $550 of course.I don't think that's worth purchasing for me. 4 analogue channels would be enough, even for the odd bit of decoding, plus you get to see the actual analogue shape/quality/noise of a digital signal.So I think that puts the Rigol 4000 back on the choices. Point taken about it being largely abandoned in terms of firmware upgrades, but in it's current state, is it a worthwhile choice?I'm not sure whether it's an "Australian prices" thing, but all the other major brands - Keysight, GW Instek, Rohde & Schwarz just don't have anything to compete at a reasonable price to the major chinese players. Maybe not a concern to a business or educational institution, but a major hurdle for the lone amateur.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 10:26:03 pm
content: Quote from: John B on October 07, 2018, 10:17:01 pmYes but the AWG and Decode options are got free also. The only option not currently offered in any official Siglent option package is PA.So for that $550 you'll get the MSO option with HW plus FG (AWG) and Decode options.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 11:02:30 pm
content: The DS4000 provides a solid performance as an oscilloscope. Protocol decoders work on the whole acquisition memory but are slow, especially if you use several. FFT is a bad joke. Math is okay-ish except for the derivative. The user interface is acceptable but if you've got the direct comparison of an analog scope or a Keysight (or some other digital scope with a fast U/I), it feels very sluggish. Measurements and statistics are nice and plentiful. As one of the few scopes on the market in its class, it provides a reference input. Yet, it's a good idea to use it since the internal clock is somewhat jittery... I'ld only go for a DS4000 if you get it at a bargain. Exact model is unimportant, provided it's got four channels. Bandwidth can be "improved" with riglol. The "E" models are some kind of unknown territory, I wouldn't get any of those. Rigol US offer a DS4014 in theirclearance salesfor 1840USD. If that's an acceptable price is something everyone has to answer for himself. I don't know if there's something like the clearance sales available to your country. YMMV

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 11:22:45 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 07, 2018, 10:26:03 pmFair enough, the 2304X is still basically the frontrunner. Your unrelenting sales pitch hasn't been for nothingQuote from: TurboTom on October 07, 2018, 11:02:30 pmGood summary. The DS4014 locally is going to come in around $2100 US. Maybe not worth worrying about the 4Gsa/s vs 2Gsa/s on the Siglent when everything is put into perspective. Plus "upgrading" the rigol opens a few warranty worm cans.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 11:48:21 pm
content: Quote from: John B on October 07, 2018, 11:22:45 pmPlease don't see it just as a sales pitch, just doing my best to offer facts. At the end of the day it'syourchoice, your $ and without accurate info how can you make aninformeddecision ?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2018, 01:53:57 pm
content: Quote from: John B on October 07, 2018, 11:22:45 pmThe "upgrading" on the Rigol is a standard procedure the manufacturer does when selling upgrades to their products as well, thus it is not necessarily an untested and unsupported modification. It can also be reverted.The higher sample rate will make a difference only near the higher frequency of 500MHz for the DS4000 or in faster serial streams where there are more samples to decode the data with accuracy (I haven't experienced the issues mentioned by Tom above, but YMMV). Given that both the Rigol and the Siglent use interleaved ADCs, just be warned that the 2GSPS for the Siglent is only available if you use channels 1&3 or 2&4. This is ok for sinewaves up to the frequency of operation of 300MHz.Also, the FFT of the Siglent is almost as bad as the entire Rigol product line (16k points). If you need this function, be warned this is still a very limited number of points.Looking at both oscilloscopes and the price between the 300MHz Siglent and the 100MHz Rigol, the only edge I see for the Siglent is this one still had a firmware update last september - a sensible advantage, but spaced almost a year before the last, which also indicates this product is reaching is maturity phase. Obviously that the offers may vary where you live.