Remember Carly Fiorina? Bringer of ruin to Hewlett Packard? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 04:48:02 am
content: I received a junk mail from her team. Guess what? She's standing for US President.QuoteJust thought some might get a laugh from that.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 05:34:48 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 19, 2015, 04:48:02 amIndeed, even someone like Carly is a far better choice than what we have from the other side. Isn't that sad.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 06:56:02 am
content: QuoteIndiegogo without Indiegogo?

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 08:21:59 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on June 19, 2015, 05:34:48 amSad that you believe that? Yes

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 01:45:15 pm
content: I still blame Carly for negligently destroying the -hp- calculator, one of the great products of American technology.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 02:10:53 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 19, 2015, 04:48:02 amWhat other Republican candidate you do like?

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 03:53:11 pm
content: "When I was hired to be CEO of Hewlett-Packardthe first woman in history to run a business so largeI found myself face-to-face with the biggest tech recession in history, and a market that was dramatically changing.."Did she do a good job in challenging circumstance compared to her competitors?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carly_fiorina#Hewlett-Packard_.28HP.29

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 04:55:58 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on June 19, 2015, 02:10:53 pmI know you are addressing TerraHertz, but I will pipe in anyhow.I have some personal and direct experience with Dr. Ben Carson. I like him a lot. Dr. Carson really cares about kids and education. He has done and continue to do a lot for kids. That said, I am not sure he has executive experience. So, I like someone else like Scott Walker as President, but I like Dr. Carson to have a say and an important role in the direction of our country.Oh, look for the movie Gifted Hands. It was a look into the first successfully separation of Cranio-cojoint (I made up the spelling - brain cojoint) twins. A Berlin couple came to Johns Hopkins for help, and it was Dr. Carson's "Gifted Brain" that developed the method and Dr. Carson's "Gifted Hands" that carried it out.By the way, from some news bits on the web, his mother is in the hospital and is not doing well. If you are the praying type, let say a prayer for her.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 09:32:26 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on June 19, 2015, 03:53:11 pmSun Mircosystems? Dell?

author: kingofkya
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 10:04:09 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on June 19, 2015, 02:10:53 pmI would like to find a diff between any of the so called republicans or democrats....

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 04:17:33 am
content: Quote from: kingofkya on June 19, 2015, 10:04:09 pmFor a starter, Sanders wants to take more of my money than Fiorina.(I am not saying that confiscating my money isn't a noble cause, just pointing out one difference per your request.)

author: notsob
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 04:36:21 am
content: Before Carly jumped to HP she was part of the team that seriously mismanaged Lucent Technologies

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 04:44:31 am
content: What a great quote. From that wikipedia link.Quote

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 05:22:47 am
content: Quote from: zapta on June 20, 2015, 04:17:33 amDo you make all of your money on wall street? Or via capital gains? Do you make more than $400,000 a year? If none of those, then your concern is misguided. Otherwise, just be glad the top marginal tax rate isn't 92%, like it was under that radical socialist Eisenhower. . .

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 06:16:05 am
content: Under Fiorina, HP lost their core business, core beliefs and core skills. Their HP-Compaq products were crap (eg: the disastrous HW6515). Many top engineers and technicians lost their jobs. But Fiorina pocketed about $21M as a golden parachute.She is thus qualified to make a good politician. Look after number one first.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 06:47:02 am
content: Quote from: ajb on June 20, 2015, 05:22:47 amConcerned? I was pointing the difference between Sanders and Fiorina.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 06:52:45 am
content: The only way she'll win a nomination is if the republican party wants to lose (again). Especially with Trump in there ... if you're going to vote for some deranged rich person, you might as well vote for one who actually made some money in building a business instead of destroying it (cratered a couple too obviously, better success rate than Fiorina though). More comedic value too, if only he could do a double bill with Biden.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 07:18:21 am
content: Vote for Trump, at least he actually knows how to run a business and make money doing so. Might be better than the career politicos, and might even actually do good.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 10:39:54 pm
content: Quote from: ajb on June 20, 2015, 05:22:47 amWhy would that matter whether it is directly out of our pocket, or indirectly by taxing those who pay us, or those we pay?So what if they are just taxing the guy (or company) that hires you. That just means that you don't even get to see it before it is taken away from you. Either way, you will end up funding it.Do you buy anything from a company with a person making > 500K? Like perhaps your car or your car insurance? So you will end up being taxed because the cost of that car or car insurance just went up to cover the tax.If you don't make money on wall street directly, you are either paid by someone who does, or you are paying someone who does. Do you have a bank account? A 401K retirement saving account? An insurance policy some where for your car? Life insurance? Car loan? So, taxing wall street is taxing you.The more money taken out of the productive sector, the less there is to produce. That is why here in the USA we have record unemployment U6 number. 93 million adults not working. Lower net worth and lower average income. GDP decline instead of growth.Average income, employment, growth, are all dropping like rock, and price is on a steady increase. That is the price we are paying for the increased government spending for the last 6 years.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 11:05:39 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on June 20, 2015, 07:18:21 amTrump hasn't a clue about running a business successfully. He's gone bankrupt four times. His primary method of making money appears to revolve around conning other investors to back risky projects, and of course his TV show.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 02:38:52 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on June 19, 2015, 04:55:58 pmI can't understand why the republicans can't find a candidate who isn't batshit crazy. Carson is a creationist that thinks evolution is false, and he thinks being gay is a choice. He's an imbecile.The people coming out on the left aren't much better.Such a pity we're a two party system where you get to choose between religious kooks and socialists.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 02:42:07 am
content: Quote from: ajb on June 20, 2015, 05:22:47 amSo people should only vote based on pure selfishness about which issues are best for them only?Or is that advice only applicable to people who prefer Fiorina over others?

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 02:43:42 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on June 21, 2015, 02:38:52 ama multi-party system is not necessarily better. Look at Canada for example.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 02:45:19 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on June 21, 2015, 02:38:52 amBecause half their voters are similar imbeciles. The US has a huge group of super-religious morons who think the earth is 6000 years old and gays will be the downfall of society and the vast majority of those are on the right. Until they can disown these stupid pricks this is the sort they'll be stuck with.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 02:48:40 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on June 20, 2015, 07:18:21 amAs much as he's just doing it for publicity, Trump would be a great candidate if for no other reason than it would be wonderful to get someone who isn't the typical democrat or the typical republican.What we get - and will get for the foreseeable future are crazy religious kook republicans who want a de-facto theocracy or crazy socialist kook democrats who want a socialist state.I know tons of young people who are - like myself - fiscally conservative and socially liberal and they perpetually vote by holding their nose and picking someone they don't really like, or they abstain.Even Romney (a *fantastic* executive and would have been a wonderful President) had to pretend he was something he was not to get the GOP nomination.So we're going to end up with Clinton against Bush again - the best we will be able to hope for will be Christie or Paul as a running mate. Hey, maybe we'll get lucky and Bush will win and drop dead on day 2, and then things will get shaken up a bit

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 02:54:16 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on June 21, 2015, 02:45:19 amReligion is dying out and fast. I can't remember where I read it or what the specifics were, but I read an article that talked about the *huge* drop in religion in the past generation and how people are mistaken in calculating rates dropping on a linear basis, when the reality is it's generational - hence the massive drop in just the last generation.The republicans are hedging their bets on imbeciles who think the earth is 6,000 years old and the democrats are hedging their bets on imbeciles who think we should tax and spend like Scandinavia. I actually think a fiscally conservative/socially liberal candidate would do a lot better than people think. I know tons of people <40 who don't like hearing that our ills are due to losing our religion and who equally don't like hearing that people who actually work and work hard need to "pay their fair share".

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 04:23:21 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 19, 2015, 01:45:15 pmTHIS.Quote from: zapta on June 19, 2015, 02:10:53 pmMu. (The question is unanswerable due to incorrect assumptions.)For information purposes, here are the candidates:http://ballotpedia.org/Presidential_candidates,_2016Commented lists.http://www.fec.gov/press/resources/2016presidential_form2nm.shtmlOfficial list of all of them.Most amusing candidate names from the official list:CAESAR, PRESIDENT EMPERORBUTTOCKS, SYDNEYS VOLUPTOUSAs for my opinion, the following is _solely_ to illustrate why I don't have a preference.I don't think the 2016 election is meaningful in any way, since the US political system is irredeemably broken; beyond fixing from within. Every single president since Kennedy was assassinated, was working against the interests of the American people. A series of the recent ones weren't legitimately elected at all but took office via massive vote fraud, and the current White House resident isn't actually a valid President since he was flatly not constitutionally eligible to stand. Incidentally the Congress *knew* that, since he was the only candidate ever for which Congress avoided conducting any eligibility hearings. Many argue that all legislative acts of the US government since Obama entered office, are null and void since there is literally no legally valid President. Also amusingly, he can't be impeached, since he isn't President. He can only be arrested and charged with impersonating an official, and various other criminal fraud crimes such as his stolen SSN.Furthermore, 'two party' political systems tend to be facades operated by power brokers to fool the public into thinking they live in a democracy. Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum, with a party switch now and then, but the policies of the parties never contain anything that goes against what the money powers want. The public is shown only a series of artificial Hegellian Dielectic 'problem reaction solution' issues, that never address real fundamental societal issues.Until I see some candidate with policy points like below, I'll consider them all just more of the same sellouts and/or agents of assorted shady factions. It's possible some of the 'unknown' candidates do have such policies, but the media will never mention them and so they have no hope.* Dissolve all unconstitutional corporate government entities, including the District of Columbia.* Return to constitutionally limited government. Including absolute compliance with 1st & 2nd amendmentsper their original intent, not some lawyer-twisted barely recognizable mutation.Also includes enforcing the requirement that holders of 'foreign titles' are ineligible to holdany US public office. That excludes all lawyers, barristers, etc. Also dual citizens.* Abolish the unconstitutional, privately owned and criminal FED.* Public audit all official gold holdings, return 'deposited' gold to original owner countries.Or explain what happened to it, and arrest those responsible.* Switch to sound (specie-backed) government-issued currency. (The action that primarily got Kennedy assassinated.)* Abolish the unconstitutional IRS. (Also all the 'war on terrorism' recent abominations such as the TSA & DHS.)* Abolish the CIA and NSA, end all government indiscriminate illegal spying. Prosecute everyone involved.* Immediately end all support for Israel, and begin ICC actions against Israel for theircontinual human rights abuses, genocide, clandestine possession of nuclear weapons, and refusing to signnuclear weapons agreements.Also the USS Liberty atrocity.* Arrest the known 911 high level conspirators, start a new and open criminal investigationincluding 'vigorous interrogation' of the obviously involved. Using the methods _they_ instigated.While any of those psychopathic mass murderers remain free and involved in public affairs, there'sNO HOPE for America. Incidentally that list includes many of the prominent 2016 candidates. Also, Israel.* Get rid of the rigged electronic voting machines, run all elections as paper ballots withfully public counting and archived vote papers. Make vote rigging a capital offense.* Legislate 'truth in media', making publication of deliberate and provably false information a crime.* Break up the current 'six corporations' mass media conglomerates. Legislate that all US mediaowners must be natural-born US citizens. No 'dual passport holders'.* Investigate the Rothschild Vanguard holding corporations, and break them up. There should be lotsof arrests for criminal acts and conspiracy.* Dig into the CDO/MERS dungpile, and arrest everyone involved. Fix the broken chain of land titles.* Ditto with the whole Agenda 21 monstrosity. Identify everyone advocating elimination of 6 billion ofthe world's 7 billion population, and charge them with advocating genocide. This will involve a lot ofthe pharmaceutical companies, Monsanto, and many others.* USA to withdraw armed forces from all overseas conflict areas, and stop running coups and regimechange operations. Stop supporting murderous Nazi thugs like the current Kiev 'government.'* Legalize all drugs, revert to treating use of addictive substances as a medical problem.Thus ending the 'war on drugs', CIA black funding via Afghan heroin, much Israeli income fromMeth and Ecstasy manufacture, about 80% of all criminal organization revenue, and a hugesource of corruption influence.* Abolish all 'victimless crimes', release and erase criminal records of all convicted under such laws.And so on. That's just a few points of a very long list. Please! Don't try to start a debate with me on any of these. Not interested, and wrong forum.Another reason the 2016 election is moot, is the rapid unraveling of the global financial situation at present. Greece just declared all its IMF/Troika debt 'illegal, illegitimate and odious', which pretty much means they are going to refuse to even try to pay. Good for them! But an official default will blow up much of the world banking system due to the insane derivatives tangle. Usually such events lead to major wars, and there's obvious signs this time is no different. Especially since it's US Dollar supremacy that's at stake.Whatever the candidates' policies, the one elected is likely to be dealing with such a radically different scenario by then, that everything said now is irrelevant.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 03:51:05 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on June 21, 2015, 02:48:40 amThe current president definitely isn't socialist, and beyond the rhetoric barely even socially liberal.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 04:54:46 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 21, 2015, 04:23:21 amSure, nobody would confuse this with the full list. ;-)Quote from: TerraHertz on June 21, 2015, 04:23:21 amThat makes it a hit and run post.Anyway, it's put into perspective your opinion about Fiorina.

author: amiq
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 05:05:00 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on June 20, 2015, 07:18:21 amVon Clownstick will almost certainly pull out early - he's only there for the publicity. If however the good folks in the US are stoopid enought to vote Fuckface into office hopefully China will do the world a favour and send over a message or two.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 05:20:04 pm
content: Quote from: amiq on June 21, 2015, 05:05:00 pmTrump provides the comic relief. This also has value.Not all of the candidates are actually trying to become the president. There are other reasons as well, gaining name recognition, raising money, selling books, getting the VP position, or pulling the real candidates closer to the party's base.We are almost a year and a half before the elections so things will get get clearer over time. I wouldn't be surprised if Fiorina is eying the VP position. She is a very capable and articulate person and could neutralize Hillary's gender card. Hopefully she will get into the first debate (which is limited to 10 top candidates).

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 07:54:40 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on June 21, 2015, 03:51:05 pmExactly right. I find it terribly sad that so many think there is actually any substantive difference between Hillary and Carly. Political tribalism and the need to vilify the other "team" at all costs blinds most to the real power struggle at hand. This is by design.Terrahertz- Nice post. Except for the birther nonsense and a few other points, I agree with much of what you say.Unfortnately we're following the Neoliberal (economic) and Neocon (world political) playbooks down the slope of empire decay and eventual collapse. It's an open question how much of the world (political and physical) we'll take down with us.Paul Craig Robertsin a recent speechsummed up the world political situation well.None of it (including this thread!) will likely end well....

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 09:29:48 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on June 21, 2015, 07:54:40 pmI understand why for people from the political extremes centralist candidates look the same. The distance to the center kills their dynamic range.It's like trying to measure a [-1V, 1V] level with an analog frontend that has 100V internal offset.Anyway, let's see if that notion of republicans-and-democtrat-candidates-are-about-the-same will hold as we get closer to the elections.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 03:35:49 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on June 21, 2015, 07:54:40 pmOTOH, Carly probably isn't guilty of serial murders, or conducting a major drug running operation. While the Clintons are. Google clinton body count, vince foster, mena, etcZapta: "That makes it a hit and run post."You understand that if this thread delved into any of those, it would get deleted/locked, right? You asked me about my position on the US 2016 election; now you know.QuoteThanks. Usually when I state things in categorical form, it means I've accumulated a big pile of background material, considered it carefully, and decided that words like 'maybe', 'possible' etc are no longer appropriate. The 'birther nonsense' is no exception. It was a very interesting topic, both because it involved such a wild mix of disinfo and truth, and because of the extreme implications if the fundamental points were valid.If you're interested, links here:http://everist.org/archives/links/__Obama_*.* (several files)QuoteYou make it sound like the decline of the USA is an accidental outcome of interacting random events. It's not, not at all. Too big a topic to discuss here. But some of the articles in that Obama list will surprise you.Or google the-first-time-i-heard-of-barack by tom fife (exactly like that)QuoteI like Paul Craig Robert's stuff. He wrote a piece about a year ago announcing he was retiring in disgust and would never post again. Ha ha... I knew he didn't mean it. Can't find that article now.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 04:20:50 am
content: Quote from: zapta on June 21, 2015, 09:29:48 pmOf course every thing is relative but that's not the point. (though I understand why it might seem so to anyone coming of age in the last 25 years,)The point is that the political process in this country has been co-opted by the big financial and corporate interests and by controlling the dialog (via the media they own), they've presented us all with 6 1/2 digit mulitimeters and convinced most to focus on the microvolts - a slight of hand to take our eyes off the offset.The fact is that if you actually look at the record of policy (not the rhetoric), Obama and the Clintons are far to the right of the traditional moderate republicans - Truman, Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, Bush Sr., Dole and even Reagan.It used to be that the honest extremes of liberal (think McGovern) and conservative (think Goldwater) ideologies had real differences with honest ideas about how best to govern. These ideas shaped the centrists who ultimately governed. But once the populace rejected Carter's realism and embraced the borrow and spend, happy days greed and kick the can consequences of Neoliberal economics ushered in by Reagan the stage was set. (btw, I think Reagan was duped by the neoliberals - see Stockman's writings on this) With the cold war "won" the Neoconservatives stepped in under Clinton to push the idea of American exceptionalism and "One ring to rule them all".The Neoliberals and Neoconservatives may have been birthed in the academic world but they were midwived and nurtured into power by the big financial and corporate interests who benefit from their ideologies. Getting the people to come along is easy:The average hard working American is easy prey for this type the Goebbelsl-esk manipulation. Wave god, patriotism and traditional ideals of American self suffiency and most will follow. The common good? ha! much easier to appeal to the baser human qualities (e.g. greed - don't touch my money, or fear - terrorists!) and keep the population's eye off the ball.Clinton, Bush Jr, Obama - and all the mainstream candidates now serve these masters. Even Paul and Sanders (who both have ideas I support and have more in common than most think) don't dare push too hard against these forces lest they be out of office.TerraHertz: Some conspiracy theories turn out to be true but most are bunk. It's important to discriminate between the former and the latter IMHO.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 04:27:17 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 22, 2015, 03:35:49 amClinton, the husband, was a good president. He was practical and knew how to work with the other side. I expected his wife to be the same and supported her in 2008 but not this time. I am pretty much disguised with her now. Will see what the other side will bring. I like a few of their candidates, Walker, Fiorina, and Robio and will tolerate a few others such as Christie and Bush. Looking forward for the first debate.As for Fiorina, when she started to show up on our TV a few months ago I first didn't pay much attention to her. Here skinny wobbly appearance reminded my of Olive Oil, but once I started to pay attention I got impressed. She is smart, focused, tough and trust worthy. Hopefully she will get into the first debate.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 05:36:48 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on June 22, 2015, 04:20:50 amIf Obama is not enough to the left that's because of the check and balances from the other side. He managed to do more in the beginning of the first term when he had both houses and then the system corrected and Scott Brown got elected.I don't care much about the historic republicans or democrats or all kind of absolute references. I know what values are important to me now and who pulls in the same and in the opposite directions.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 09:07:35 am
content: Quote from: zapta on June 22, 2015, 04:27:17 amThat's the way she comes overin interviews.Having watched her perform (and I use that word advisedly) and seen how she did things, she was a significant factor in my deciding to leave HP.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 09:31:39 am
content: I do not understand why people still think that running a country is the same or needs the same skills as running a business.Just the opposite.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 10:45:27 am
content: Quote from: zapta on June 22, 2015, 04:27:17 amYou listened to her bullshitting in an interview, and from that you could assess that she is trustworthy?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 11:39:45 am
content: Quote from: coppice on June 22, 2015, 10:45:27 amI saw a candidate that doesn't avoid taking questions and doesn't weasel around them.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 04:07:45 pm
content: Here is one of Friorina's recent adshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?t=155&v=lc3qtfUkOKsand here is an interview

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 05:55:10 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on June 22, 2015, 04:20:50 amYes indeed! And you don't know how much trouble I go to, searching for details that can be considered reliable evidence, on issues that interest me. Clear evidence is a very rare thing usually. My 'obama' folder is 185MB, most of which is a bunch of people venting opinions. There are just a few items in that lot which I consider solid. Once you have even one solid item, everything else can be considered for it's consistency with that.Here's a fun exercise. Download the official Whitehouse pdf of Obama's long form bc here:https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/birth-certificate-long-form.pdfNote that's not some freaky truther site, that's the actual Whitehouse dot gov.Now zoom right in, to pixel level. Pan around, making yourself a list of things you'll find that are impossible in what should be a bitmap image from a scan. There are many, I won't spoil the fun by listing them. Note I said 'impossible' and mean it. These are not matters of opinion. You'll see what I mean.Then open it in Illustrator, and notice the multiple layers and some elements still selected for editing. "Elements? Layers? There shouldn't _be_ elements or layers in a scan! And editing?" Ha ha, but there they are. *Nobody* could be accidentally that incompetent with such a task. And whether they were accidental or deliberate does not alter that it's not a scan of a real physical document.Anyway, this image was clearly constructed by someone who knew what they were doing, and deliberately wanted to make it obvious to anyone but the completely computer-naive (pointy headed bosses, etc) that the document is a fake, and deliberately so. It looks OK unless you zoom in, yet the errors are blatant and selective. That actually takes a bit of skill and imagination.Why is the official Whitehouse 'Obama birth certificate' an outrageous fake? (There are many other such problems too, besides his bc.) Oh and you might want to look up what happened juuust as the fakeness of that pdf was gaining some news traction. Which caused that issue to be suddenly and completely forgotten by most. Hint: It was a high value card they could only play once.But don't worry, everything is fine, the US President is who he says he is. Anything to the contrary is just bunk, and you can ignore it with comfortable contempt. Normalcy bias is so easy.Edit: @zapta re Carly interview. She's slick isn't she? Using a lot of phrases that sound good in the context. I can see how some would be impressed. But I think I'll take tggzz's opinion re her nature based on performance. Also, watching that interview my instincts say there's something creepy about her. Weird muscle movements around the mouth.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 06:26:24 pm
content: Conspiracy nutters are not confined to the US.http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/birthcertificate.aspIn order to work effectively, democracy relies on an informed electorate. People who believe in ridiculous conspiracy theories are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 06:54:35 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 22, 2015, 06:26:24 pmThanks for posting this. Yes, I agree that too many people are quick to jump on any conspiracy that supports their preconceived notions and political agenda. Interesting that so many of the "Birthers" came from the same faction of the right wing who are now silent about Ted Cruz's country of birth.Of course that doesn't mean that conspiracy theories don't sometimes turn out to be true - as history as shown. One shouldn't dismiss them all out of hand. The key I think is to ask who is promoting the particular theory and what is their agenda.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 07:28:51 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 22, 2015, 06:26:24 pmNot informed but rather mostly ignorant electorate.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 10:32:28 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 22, 2015, 05:55:10 pmI have a scanner at home which automatically OCRs text using the supplied software. The PDFs it creates puts text on separate layers with searchable text. That looks pretty similar to what has happened in this instance.It looks similar because it's only picked out the most likely characters to stick on that layer. For example it's missed some of the small characters.Hypothetically, do you honestly believe there is only one person responsible for faking Mr Obama's birth certificate? If this was such a large conspiracy - involving all of Congress according to yourself - you don't think someone would have signed off on this document? In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if, to fake such a document, a large organisation like the CIA would be involved, to make it look as authentic as possible.OR, it was just scanned in by some bored White House intern and cc'd to the web department. Said intern did not set the scanner up properly to exclude OCR or didn't check the document thoroughly. And the WH knew that updating the document at a later time would only serve to add fuel to the birther fire (conspiracy, etc. etc.)Of course it's possible that it's a double bluff (it's so obviously fake therefore it's real.) I'll leave you to judge that.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 12:32:48 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on June 22, 2015, 09:31:39 amTHANK YOU.Serving constituents and ensuring profits for shareholders are at cross purposes.I understand the need to offer those services in an efficient manner, but that is the end of the comparison.Let's take teaching public schools as one example. Imagine that you are an electronics-design engineer, and you are told to produce 1,000 high-quality widgets, all tested to meet stringent acceptance criteria, BUT ... you are not given any control over the quality, or even the type, of components you need to do your design. Then imagine that you are continually interrupted by all sorts of non-technical people, all of whom have absolutely zero understanding of how you do your job and what it requires, yet they all have an opinion about how you can do your job better. Throw in an ever-shrinking budget for tools, just for good measure. Also take away your assembly tech and your purchasing person. Finally, have a large fraction of population convinced that your job is valueless and that you are overpaid.Well, that is exactly what a public-school teacher has to deal with on a daily basis.The school is required by law to "provided a thorough and efficient education to all eligible students," which means that it has to take all comers. You have kids who are the children of stable families where both parents work and where the kids get good meals every day and have lots of parental support and extracurricular activities. Then you have the kids who are the children of poor families, where both parents may work two or more jobs each to pay the bills, and where kids don't eat good meals every day (that free student lunch is a godsend to these kids, because it may well be their only meal of the day). These kids don't get the iPads to play with, they don't even get new clothes. And they go home to families where the parents cannot (for whatever reason) provide the enrichment that the better-off kids have. Some of these kids have behavioral issues that never get addressed. And it goes on and on.But now that school has to meet some arbitrary and capricious testing standards that in no way address the reality of the schools and what the teachers and administration do to help ensure the kids are learning. And, seriously against all of the odds, a lot of these kids ARE learning.How can you run a public school system like a business? YOU CAN'T. It is ridiculous to even try.Charter schools -- the market-driven solution -- as an option? Yeah, perhaps. There are many charters which offer alternative learning scenarios and they work. There are other charters which are highly selective and only take the cream of the crop. The kids with special needs are not admitted, the kids with problems at home are not admitted, the kids who can't keep up are pushed out. Why does the BASIS school in Tucson get consistently high rankings in various national magazines? Because when you don't have to teach the poor kids from the south side you don't have to deal with a whole host of issues the regular public schools need to address, that's why. I haven't even mentioned the charters that have students performing worse on standardized tests than the public school kids in the same district.So, yeah, this whole thing is completely off-topic, but obvious as the father of a kid who just completed kindergarten, this weighs rather heavy on my mind.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 12:41:31 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 22, 2015, 05:55:10 pmAs indicated by the little flag under your avatar, you are not an American.Let me clue you into how American birthright citizenship works. It is very simple.If one of your parents is an American citizen, then so are you. Period.It does not matter where you were born.Even though Obama was born in Hawaii, which of course is the 50th State in the Union, and was so at the time of his birth, since Barack Obama's mother was an American citizen, he is as well, and thus endeth the controversy.This is why John McCain is a US citizen. He was born in the Panama Canal zone to parents who were US citizens.This is why Ted Cruz is a US citizen. Even through he was born in Canada, his mother is an American citizen.So all of your conspiracy theories are simply crackpot nonsense, and you should be ashamed of yourself for even spouting them aloud.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 12:46:35 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 22, 2015, 10:32:28 pmI am not a birther, or even one that thinks it is cosmically important whether Obama is a "letter of the law" eligible for the presidency citizen. But I have long been troubled by the posted birth certificate. The scanned document has anti-tamper features (faint criss crosses of a pastel color). It is an old technology to make physical erasure and replacement more difficult. The posted document clearly shows these anti-tamper features disappearing behind key dates and signatures. It may well be an artifact of the software used for scanning. But the best possible interpretation says that the competence of those in the executive office is questionable. You don't quell a controversy by putting out a document that seems to indicate tampering and flaws.This kind of limited competency shows up widely, and is as troubling to me as any possible conspiracy theory. The pilot doesn't have to be evil, or have an unwanted destination if he keeps confusing the flaps with the throttle, or the landing gear controls with the fuel transfer mechanism.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 05:15:30 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 22, 2015, 06:26:24 pmI'm glad someone mentioned Snopes. This is an excellent litmus test of their credibility, since you can verify the matter with your own eyes, with a key item from an indisputable source, no intermediaries.Do what I suggested. Get the pdf, and examine it yourself. Note that snopes doesn't mention any of the more serious problems with it. You'll see them if you look. No, the 'anachronistic text' is not high on the list of issues. The problems are much more basic and definite than that, which is why it's so cool to discover them for yourself. Hint: you don't need to read any of the text, just look at the underlying image characteristics. Also, re layers and selections in Illustrator - well again you'll just have to look and decide for yourself. Don't forget to answer the question 'why was this document ever touched by Illustrator in the first place? And why do individual elements exist in the image, and why are any selected, and why those ones particularly, but not others?'Then decide what that tells you about Snopes. And the other 'it's all good, nothing to see here' voices.I especially like that the Whitehouse site can't now replace the document with a sanitized version, since anyone paying attention already has a copy, and changing it would be an admission of several things the WH would rather not. So they have to leave that piece of beautiful crud there, where anyone with still functioning brain and eyes (and even slight computer skills) can see for the PR debacle themselves. Instead they rely on a chorus of 'it's all been debunked, don't bother to examine it yourself, you'd be wasting your time, ignore those birther kooks.' Which does work on many, sad to say.@Bassman59 "Let me clue you into how American birthright citizenship works. It is very simple.If one of your parents is an American citizen, then so are you. Period."It's even simpler than that. The Constitution says "natural born citizen" which is a specific legal term meaning something a lot stricter than citizen. You're correct regarding citizenship rules. You're wrong about whether Obama is constitutionally eligible. If he was born in Kenya, of one US parent, then he's not and never can be a 'natural born citizen'. Whether one considers that relevant, depends on whether one thinks details of the body of Law matter. Nowadays a lot of people don't, so for them it's 'who cares where he's from?'Also, incidentally, quite apart from the 'natural born' thing, there's little evidence he ever even reapplied for plain citizenship after being an Indonesian citizen for a while as a child. Even for plain citizenship you still have to go through the procedures, or you are not. Potentially is not the same as is.Personally, not being American myself, the whole thing has a kind of amusing academic interest. A nation with a President who's apparently not eligible, not even a citizen, and has an incredibly hidden past. How fascinating.Different people's approaches to this issue are also very interesting, since it says so much about them.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 05:54:52 am
content: I'm no fan of Obama but you lose credibility IMO when you pursue the birther thing. It has been thoroughly debunked, including the Adobe Illustrator nonsense.Never attribute to conspiracy what can be accounted for by incompetence.Again, ask yourself - "who benefits from promoting such a conspiracy theory"The difficulty with conspiracy theories is separating out the wheat from the chaff. So much of it is nonsense that it easy to conclude that it is all nonsense I run into the same thing everyday with alternative medicine. There's some truly good stuff there but it gets lost among all the bullshit and quackery. So manywantto believe just because it aligns with their anti-authority leanings or dissappointment with allopathic medicine's failings. Same thing with pseudoscience and conspiracy theories - it's easy to fall prey to confirmation bias.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 06:05:27 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 23, 2015, 05:15:30 amTerraHertz, you are aware that this statement applies also to you, right?

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 06:08:09 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 22, 2015, 05:55:10 pmJesus christ.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 07:17:31 am
content: Quote from: andersm on June 23, 2015, 06:08:09 amThat's probably a bigger folder

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 08:08:46 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on June 23, 2015, 05:54:52 amIt must never be forgotten that many important treatments started in "alternative medicine". They are such an important category that they are given a new name: "medicine".

author: hlokk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 08:28:21 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 23, 2015, 08:08:46 amFunny what evidence is able to do

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 10:34:48 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 19, 2015, 01:45:15 pmUrr. Not thanks. Hated HP calculators. From working in the finance world during college, and being forced to by one for a single class - I loath HP calcs.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 01:08:24 pm
content: Quote from: george graves on June 23, 2015, 10:34:48 amI started with a good TI calculator when I couldn't afford the expensive hp calculators, but changed as soon as I could afford an RPN calculator, so I have experience with both types. In scientific/engineering contexts, everyone I knew who gave a fair trial to RPN vs. algebraic operation preferred RPN when working on a technical problem without pencil and paper. I watched the algebraic guys struggling with the parentheses, and they often ended up using pencil and paper to store intermediate results that would float up and down on the stack naturally with RPN. Ironically, the financial version hp12C survived, due to being used in a financial examination, while the hardware-identical hp11c (scientific/engineering functions) was discontinued. Luckily, they never die and I have two 12C's and two 41C's in good operating condition which should last me until my end of life.The closest calculator in the current -hp- catalog is the 35s. However, I encountered the following review of the mechanical quality, etc., on the hp website:"I've used HP's since the 80's, loved the 34C and my 11C. Unfortunately lost the 34C and used the 11C for over 20 years until last week when the display couldn't take commercial travel in unpressurized baggage compartments. Now I'm stuck with this 35S piece of garbage that I bought over a year ago and through in a drawer. I'd come to expect unequaled quality and performance of HP calculators and they don't offer anything close to the old 11C or the 34C keyboard feel. Perhaps they should beg Carly Fiorina to come back to run the company."The last sentence is amusing, giving the timing of Carly and the calculators.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 01:26:08 pm
content: TerraHertz clearly does not understand image compression.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 01:39:58 pm
content: I didn't know this is a political forum..If I had known that I wouldn't bother to come here.It has already been decided that Hillery will be the next president.The rest is all for show. Your vote doesn't matter.I'll be back in a year and a half when all this stupidity is over with.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 02:47:02 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 23, 2015, 01:08:24 pmModern calculators such as Ti 89, smart phone apps and Wolfram show the expression in full mathematical notation including parenthesis. RPN doesn't have much value in the age of graphical displays.(I had a HP34C calculator and loved it at the time but have much better options these days).

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 02:48:42 pm
content: Meh. Personal preference. Myself, I find the full mathematical notation display silly and a waste of time. It's good if you're typing in an equation, but who does that except on school exams? I just have numbers, and things I want to do to them.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 04:11:41 pm
content: There is a good reason, why most technical forums do not allow political or religious conversations.It is impossible to find common ground that is purely based on scientific evidence.And the reality is hiding anyways behind the fassade of all these "actors", called politicians.Even in the Old Rome, they had a more people oriented system and the folks that voted could not only votefor someone but also kick someone out of office. If we would allow such system in the modern western worldtoday, there would probably not many people left in office.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 06:05:18 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 23, 2015, 05:15:30 amUh, dude, put down the bong. You are wrong. Wrong as can be. You don't know what the hell you are talking about. So, please, respectfully, shut the fuck up.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 06:31:41 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on June 23, 2015, 02:48:42 pmI agree with you, and this is still a free country where one can use ones personal preference.Personally, when doing anything complicated with numbers, I prefer to use Excel on whatever platform is handy.An example of when I use a calculator is to calculate a resonant circuit from the numbers. We all know the equation isf = 1 / 2 pi sqrt (L x C). Count the keystrokes (excluding the L and C values themselves) on an RPN or algebraic calculator.RPN: EnterXSQRT2EnterShiftPiX1/x.Incidentally, I learned "forward Polish" notation in a class on symbolic logic. Jan ?ukasiewicz invented it in the twenties to replace Russel-Whitehead notation, which is analogous to algebraic calculators. [Note: this forum cannot tolerate Polish diacritical marks. That's supposed to be an accented L.] Since many people could not pronounce his name (especially backwards) it became known as "Polish". The version I learned used majuscules for operators and minuscules for operands, where the operator comes first. Binary operators do the function on the next two operands, which can be terms or wffs.Example (logic): Axy is x and y. AAxyz is (x and y) and z. (Note, his original notation used Polish words and abbreviations.)The parsing is unambiguous and does not use parentheses. Reversing the syntactical order gives RPN.Besides, it's lots of fun lending ones calculator to a younger person and watching them struggle, since they don't get a chance to learn about RPN anymore, unless they are forced to take a finance exam.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 06:49:20 pm
content: RIP HP RPN calculators.My dad bought me a HP34c (with root finding and numeric intergration!) when it came out in 1979 - just before I started high school calculus. It was my pride and joy and the envy of my friends. RPN quickly became second nature. I rarely use a handheld calculator these days and when I do it's usually which ever Casio or TI calc I find sitting around. I still don't feel comfortable using a non RPN calculator.I haven't seen my old HP 34c since grad school. Next time I'm at my mom's I need to dig around and see if it still lives somewhere.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 08:10:40 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on June 23, 2015, 06:49:20 pmHP did a re-spin of the 15C as a limited edition a few years back and I bought a couple.May be one day they will do it again.It is one of my favorite calculators of all times.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 07:27:29 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on June 23, 2015, 01:26:08 pmHa ha ha, that's very funny.Here's a couple of draft docs re scanning & image compression I'm writing. A slow background project, a long way from completion. (And this reminds me, the pdf potential to include OCR+original image on separate layers should be mentioned in there.)http://everist.org/temp/20140812_disconnecting_the_dots.htmhttp://everist.org/temp/On_scanning.htmGee, I could have saved a lot of money, by just skipping those books (see pic.)Does having single handedly ported the 3Dfx Glide 3D engine drivers from the PC to an embedded MIPS processor system (gaming company Pacific Gaming, around 2000 iirc) and having the code run first time on the new platform, give me any graphics chops?Apparently you haven't actually looked at the W.H. document yourself. Neither have any of the people talking about layers as a result of OCR, etc. Sure, that happens. It's not what is in that document. Nor are the most glaringly obvious problems anything to do with compression defects. (A few of the subtle ones are.)Well, never mind. If I suggest "download this from the .gov site, zoom in, look around, you'll be astonished" and you refuse to do it (for whatever reason), and justify this by resorting to insults, then there's nothing further to be achieved.Note that no one has 'can't do it' as an excuse, since it's a pdf on a .gov website, and all you need is any browser. They all have zoom. It's more convenient to examine it in photoshop, illustrator, or even irfanview, but any common browser will do. The ability to actually see something that has potentially painful implications... not so common.The avoidance is more to do with fear, I suspect. Afraid to find something inexplicable in front of your eyes that can't be denied. And all that it implies. Well then, don't look. I won't bother doing the detailed visual walk-through I was thinking of doing, since it's not really necessary anyway. The features are so obvious, for anyone with the faintest understanding of scanning and graphics encoding they speak for themselves.I never did that walkthrough before since I don't really care about this issue, as I'm not in the USA. Just mentioned it here since I thought at least a couple of people might come back and post something like "Hey, that's amazing! The way the *** contrasts with ***, and how could *** even be possible?" showing they'd enjoyed the intellectual exercise. Maybe someone would spot a flaw I didn't, which would be cool.I still remember how astonished I was, the first time I saw it back in April 2011. It was exciting; a real WTF? moment, since normally in politics one _never_ encounters anything so remarkable, explicit and inarguable.If you can avoid looking for yourself in the W.H. copy, on the basis that you heard some people say 'it's nothing, go back to sleep', then you won't look at anything I post either.Added:Quote from: Bassman59 on June 23, 2015, 06:05:18 pmOk, I am swayed by the weight of your reasoning, and will henceforth never google 'constitution eligibility natural born', or read things like the review from the Federation of American Scientists at fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42097.pdf Because you have spoken, informing the world that such considerations are ignorant and delusional. Also, Punctuation Man says "wow, so much arguing over a misplaced comma!" (In joke.)

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 10:51:34 am
content: I am sure they shouldn't have been so rude to you but there is a real communication problem in this thread. I find your point of view hard to follow.I am quite interested as to what you are talking about so to make it easy for me.Give me the link again to the document.Give meoneglaringlyobvious proof that this document is a forgery. (Two only makes the case weaker as it means one cant stand up by itself.)Hopefully also you can give me one juicy theory as to why it is a forgery, including where he was really born and when he started saying he was born in Hawaii.From my small knowledge of this it seems to me there is a conspiracy and that the birth certificate thing was the best thing his enemies could cook up.Reminds me of the Swift boat thing. Just spread the FUD about.Also where are the other presidents birth certificates are they online?

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 04:08:37 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on June 24, 2015, 10:51:34 amhttp://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/birth-certificate-long-form.pdfReleased sometime around 20110428 (that's when I saved it) and still there unchanged today.For context, my 'Obama links' in time sequence are here:http://everist.org/archives/links/3 files starting "__Obama"This is just the way I archive stuff. I'm usually following dozens of topics, some over years. When I save an article, I usually also record the URL & precis in files like those. The saved articles archives I can't put online (copyright & bulk) but some of the URL lists I put in that online folder. Updated intermittently. They are messy since really they are only meant for my own reference, and I do it quick and lazy. Links may die, but one can usually find online copies by searching for exact title string, or some content text from the extract.QuoteThere are multiple, and they *each* stand by themselves.The reactions in this thread suggest that I should do it carefully and completely, if I'm to touch it at all. I'll try to do it in the next week. The article will go on my site, and I'll PM you a link. I can't and won't try posting the whole thing here, it will get the thread deleted/locked, and I actually agree it's not appropriate. Didn't mean this to turn into a major sidetrack. I'd mostly hoped someone else would actually look at it, and comment. To see if anyone here spots details that haven't been noticed by others (and me.) Some pretty smart people here, many with some clue about image scan artifacts, etc. As opposed to the general Net-public. But never mind.QuoteYep, sure can. Patience, sorry. The whole history is fascinating, and complex. The article will include the BC issue, plus all of the background to give the BC context. Plus what the chain of events led to, which is the most fun part.When I first noticed the BC issue building up I had no position. I'll mention in the article when I decided there was something to it. That was before the 'official BC release', so I paid attention to the details of that. Not just "Oh see he released his BC, end of story" like the media pushed at the time.QuoteIBM's 'Fear Uncertainty and Doubt' isn't quite the same thing as modern propaganda techniques. See book:Propaganda (1928) by Edward Bernays.What there has been a lot of with the BC issue is Well Poisoning. Ha ha - multiple fake BCs, used to bury one real one. A very fascinating story; this part I'm going to enjoy writing up.QuoteNot so far as I know, because it's never been an issue before. As I mentioned, all US presidential leading candidates are supposed to have congressional eligibility examinations by subcommittee. They all did in the past. But for Obama that was skipped.About my point of view. It's mostly amazement at what I learned while following the topic. The US Constitution was phrased with specific wording, to exclude any possibility of foreign nobility (the English in particular) ever finagling their way into office in the US. Since anyone could eventually gain citizenship, and then stand for President if citizenship was the sole requirement, the founders made it tougher. It says to be eligible to stand, you have to be 'natural born'. They goofed and forgot to define the meaning in the actual document, but there's a context of discussions and existing law at the time. It means "born IN the USA, of TWO US citizen parents." Or it was also OK to be a US citizen at the time the Union was formed - since it was new, and they didn't want to exclude present citizens, many of whom weren't 'natural born.' But there's some argument about the precise meaning, partly due to a misplaced comma in that part of the Constitution text. (F*ck me!)Turns out Obama was born in Kenya, of only one US citizen parent. There are even archived newspaper articles referring to his Kenyan birth, back when he was a senator and it didn't matter. But to be President, it does. His birth details absolutely exclude him from candidacy. Which is why the Senate skipped the eligibility hearing - they knew he'd fail requirements, but at that time he was already tagged as next President by the power brokers. (Yes that's right, it's not entirely a democracy. Surprised?)His Kenyan origin began being expunged from public references and substituted with the Hawaii story a while before he ran for President - once he was selected to run, as that's when it became awkward.On top of that as a child for a while he was a citizen of Indonesia, and there don't seem to be any records of his ever applying for and being granted US citizenship. Some powerful people were surfing him along, and that's part of the story too.All this may seem academic. Who cares, he's elected, right?The point is that you either have Rule of Law, or you don't. And the center of government better be legally legitimate, or the whole system becomes illegitimate. For most people the implications of Obama not being legitimately President are so immensely disturbing that in their minds they shut down the entire issue. I can see that for most Americans, it would be extremely unsettling to contemplate every act of government during Obama's two terms potentially being null and void, in a strict legal sense. I'm paraphrasing others' writings btw, not making this up myself. But the whole situation is so extreme that no one really has a clue how to deal with it. Other than ignore it and hope it goes away.The deeper layers of conspiracy theory surrounding this say that the disturbing ambiguity of the situation and the de-legitimization of the Office of President is also a deliberate component of the social deconstruction agenda served by Obama's Presidency. I don't know about that. Maybe.Me, I just archive relevant articles. This topic is quite amusing - high comedy and suspense factors, plus a stiff dash of tragedy and farce. I'm betting he completes his 2nd term, and nothing ever comes of the BC issue. It also won't surprise me at all if Hillary is in the White House next. Who will pay Diebold the most?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 04:44:50 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 25, 2015, 04:08:37 pm+1 for one good and focused argument.Otherwise it becomes a pile of words.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 03:19:24 am
content: Me:QuoteOuch. "a week" ha ha ha. It's underway, and there are no obstacles except that I now estimate it's many days of full time work, and I only get a a few chunks of time free now and then to work on it. So...manyweeks till done. Also that's just the document dissection; I'm splitting off the 'surrounding events context' into a separate article.Not that I imagine anyone is waiting with bated breath.Still, it's quite an interesting exercise. There are many curious things in the pdf image, some just odd, some flatly impossible other than by deliberate intent. In looking at it now I've found another impossible-class weirdness I hadn't noticed before, and also another whole category of investigation I hadn't looked into before. Going to take some time.Bear in mind this is all purely about the graphical structure. I'm completely ignoring the textual bc content. That could be allLorem ipsum dolorfor all I care at this level of examination.Quote from: zapta on June 25, 2015, 04:44:50 pmDemonstrating the issues requires a lot of illustrations, both of graphical/editing effects in general, and specifics from that pdf. Generating them is part of what takes time. I'm aware of the negative utility of 'wall of text' articles. I'm trying to structure the article as a kind of detective story, to be interesting. Also have to teach graphics/scanning/editing/file structure stuff at the same time, so everyone can understand. All with a follow-along-yourself guide, so people get 1st hand views of the details, not just 'some bloke claiming this or that, probably all lies'.