PCB Design Software-Free/Cheep. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: PeterG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2010, 06:56:50 am
content: G'day All,I would like to hear what PCB design software people use and recommend. I am looking for a package that does both schematic and board layout. I think a lot of people on here would like to know what the good/bad/ugly is with this stuff.To my thinking, it would have to handle basic schematic layout with a reasonable library of parts. It would also need a reasonable PCB layout function with maybe an Autorouter (I know it seen as a form of cheating but it can save time doing the basic layout quickly), and be able to output the final design in a format that boardhouses will accept.RegardsPeter

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 07, 2010, 07:23:12 am
content: Quote from: Darkman1969 on June 07, 2010, 06:56:50 amNot so. Autorouters are really advanced tools designed for complex boards with complex requirements. The simpler your board gets the more useless an autorouter will become in more than one sense of the word.No basic PCB package needs an autorouter.Oh, I feel a drive-time rant coming on!Dave.

author: DJPhil
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2010, 07:23:50 am
content: I myself useKiCad, but my needs are relatively simple. There are more than a few options, as I recall.There's arecent threaddiscussing this that covered most of what's out there.Hope that helps.

author: PeterG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2010, 07:58:39 am
content: Some good points have been made here. The other thread seems more Protel/Eagle. I feel there has to be others out there. I use the Free Eagle software, but, it does not take long to reach the limits of the board size. Both Protel and Eagle are very expensive for the average user.RegardsPeter

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 07, 2010, 10:35:10 am
content: The reason why I avoid Eagle is their DRM. There are various stories about people being unable to open their designs in a new version. If they ask the Eagle people for help, they get told that they once copied a component from a design made in an illegal version of Eagle. Since they copied that component in every design, every design is tainted, and won't open in any future version of Eagle. They refuse to unlock these files, even for paying customers. This means that you have to be really careful with data from unknown sources, since it may turn out to be generated by an illegal version in the future. They're fully within the right to enforce their copyrights, but not by keeping the data of paying customers hostage.I've used gEDA in the past, but I dislike their libraries. They have two different diode symbols, with reverse pin numbers (1 = anode or cathode). If I recall correctly, the first (Schottky?) diode symbol is reversed compared to the DO-35 symbol. The response is that designers should check this kind of stuff and build their own libraries. Seems to conflict with the idea that software should make life easier. Kicad appears to have even less features, but I'll try it for some small project.I'm not really aware of any other sophisticated software available for hobbyist budgets (I'm sure Allegro and A-l-t-i-u-m are great, but not for $100 or so).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 07, 2010, 12:15:47 pm
content: Quote from: alm on June 07, 2010, 10:35:10 amA-l-t-i-u-m (marketing web bot trap, big brother is watching) actually offer a student version of the software for very close to that price, full version, but of course not for commercial use, and you have to prove you are a student.Dave.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 07, 2010, 03:31:34 pm
content: Hello Dave, you mind possibly PM me the link, I would like to figure out who to contact.

author: migsantiago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2010, 05:00:48 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 07, 2010, 12:15:47 pmI'm interested aswell, a link would be helpful. Thanks Dave.

author: TheDirty
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2010, 05:28:01 pm
content: On the product/pricing page it says go through the contact list for Education pricing.http://www.altium.com/products/altium-designer/en/altium-designer_home.cfmhttp://www.altium.com/buy/contact-us/en/This does sound good to get yourself some experience if your actually trying to get in the field. I'll stick with Eagle for home use, but you want something like A-l-t-i-u-m to put on a resume.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 07, 2010, 10:38:19 pm
content: No public info or links on that to my knowledge, sorry. You have to contact the sales drones.http://www.a-l-t-i-u-m.com/buy/contact-us/en/(remove dashes in name)Dave.

author: migsantiago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2010, 06:10:46 pm
content: Thanks Dave.I already use A-l-t-i-u-m and I like it so much. I have to use Eagle for projects and I really miss the manual wiring algorithms A-l-t-i-u-m has, they're excellent.

author: David
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2010, 07:12:49 pm
content: I enquired about the Student edition of A-l-t-i-u-m and it is £95 here in the UK. However, the software expires after 12 months (I.e. is unusable).

author: TheDirty
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2010, 08:43:13 pm
content: Quote from: David on June 08, 2010, 07:12:49 pmThat kinda blows. If it's going to expire they need to cut that price down for an education license to people with .edu credentials. Maybe make it limited like Eagle does to a smaller board size.I started with Eagle and find A-l-t-i-u-m to be fairly painful to use when I've had the chance to use it. I think a lot of what you like is what you get used to. I know it's a little complaint, but the middle button click and drag for zooming is impossible for me to get used to. For hobby use, Eagle is just more universal as well, and it's much easier to find Eagle libraries, even if you generally need to verify them twice before trusting they are right.

author: migsantiago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2010, 11:28:15 pm
content: Yes, A-l-t-i-u-m lacks a lot of basic libraries while Eagle has lots of them. I hate to be making a library for everything I want to put on a board.The good thing is that all Microchip chips are already included in A-l-t-i-u-m

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2010, 11:37:39 pm
content: Quote from: David on June 08, 2010, 07:12:49 pmUnusable?It's 100% usable for 12 months.I assume if you want another 12 months you pay some more money...That's not a huge amount of money if you want to learn the package and put it in your resume.Dave.

author: allanw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2010, 12:22:35 am
content: Quote from: TheDirty on June 08, 2010, 08:43:13 pmIt's just what you're used to. After trying out A-l-t-i-u-m for a few weeks I found myself middle click dragging in Eagle...And I think it's a much better experience creating footprints yourself in A-l-t-i-u-m instead of in Eagle. For example, all the IPC wizards make it near instant, especially since a lot of datasheets give their measurements for the same dimensions the wizard asks for.

author: charliex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2010, 12:44:40 am
content: i think thats one of the harder things to get your head around, the parts libray eagle, and the build it yourself on p-r-o-t-e-l. I've had so many parts on eagle that are just wrong I usually end up building my own anyway. or something like ultra librarianhttp://www.accelerated-designs.com/(S(eg3nxnrfp03tjb55uvmaocvw))/Home.aspxa lot of the eagle parts are "proven" but they're the "near enough" proven sometimes.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2010, 12:49:17 am
content: Quote from: TheDirty on June 08, 2010, 08:43:13 pmHow much more cut price do you want it?Eagle is US$125 for a size/feature crippled educational/non-profit version. A-l-t-i-u-m on the other hand is the full version, with FPGA, C/C++ compilers, C to Hardware, 3D modeling, VHDL/Verilog etc etc for essentially the same price, albeit on a yearly timed basis. So A-l-t-i-u-m bang-per-buck is much greater IMO.But as always, YMMV.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2010, 12:52:55 am
content: BTW, can all those on the forum who want to mention A-l-t-i-u-m, can you please obfuscate it like I have. There are marketing bots that troll the web and have found stuff on this forum before which I've been asked to remove.Even tweets are showing up on the radar.Generally not a problem, but I'd prefer to stay off the radar if I can.Thanks.Dave.

author: TheDirty
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2010, 12:58:50 am
content: I know in vBulletin there's the ability to automatically replace words with other words. There might be something like that for this forum software.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2010, 12:59:49 am
content: Quote from: TheDirty on June 09, 2010, 12:58:50 amAh, do it has!Check:AltiumThanksDave.

author: David
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2010, 06:33:33 am
content: Sorry, I think my point came across wrong...I was simply stating that the software expires after 12 months but is obviously fully usable before then. I happen to think that £95 is quite a good price.DaveQuote from: EEVblog on June 08, 2010, 11:37:39 pm

author: desolatordan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2010, 01:05:22 pm
content: Quote from: David on June 08, 2010, 07:12:49 pmThat's not unusable... It contains a great number of libraries. The interactive routing feature is AMAZING! Let's you see the board in 3D. I really couldn't stand to go use free software anymore, they's so inferior and non-intuitive. I highly recommend it if you're doing some serious board design.

author: dfnr2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2010, 09:18:09 pm
content: Quote from: alm on June 07, 2010, 10:35:10 amI've used Eagle for a few years, and finally switched to Altium. I will say that Eagle is just fine as a hobbyist package. I never had a problem with DRM on Eagle, but I didn't download a lot of unofficial 3rd party libraries either. The biggest flaws in Eagle have to do with lack of hierarchical structure (making re-use and re-factoring awkward at best), lack of version and release management, crude BOM support, lack of features for large projects such as cross-probing, and no parts-placement help. You can get by with Eagle for small projects, but these omissions are a problem for larger projects, or for critical projects.When I used Eagle, I used RCS for simple command-line version control, and did paired check-ins of the board and accompanying schematic, or of libraries, after every significant change(e.g, after routing a section, adding a component to a library, adding a part from a new library into the board.). By the way, this will also protect against the DRM issue, as you can revert to the prior version if you add a tainted part and infect the design.I will say that even for the relatively simple work I do, the benefits of Altium really do pay off, even though I still have to learn many of the fancier features. The usability is really very good, despite the occasional bug. The version and release management are singular among EDA software, and IMO very important; more so than a good simulator or autorouter. My main beef with Altium now is that it's Delphi heritage makes is slower than it needs to be, and ties it to Windows (I prefer to develop on Unix/Linux/Mac.)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2010, 12:52:48 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 08, 2010, 11:37:39 pmI've used it before at work to do the odd PCB here and there but I'm no expert. Yes Altium designer is expensive but it's a good program with lots of features - it does everything from schematic capture to simulation, PCB design and 3D modelling.I don't know whether it's worth all that money, maybe if you do it commercially but certainly not of the hobbyist. It sounds a bit cheeky to expect someone to rent software for £95 per year and certainly isn't something I would do myself. If I really couldn't afford it but wanted to learn to use it legally I'd get a bank loan or something.It's probably also packed with DRM which can be inconvenient at the best of times - you might have to be connected to be the Internet when you use it to get authentication to use it. The version I used at work certainly had some form of DRM, the newest version is likely to be worst. I'd recommend looking for a crack, even if you do purchase it legally. I don't like DRM myself and crack, where possible, simply for convenience sake.

author: joelby
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2010, 07:55:58 am
content: Quote from: dfnr2 on June 22, 2010, 09:18:09 pmIt works well enough on the Mac under Parallels, but I must say that the scroll wheel behaviour drives me nuts. The Apple Magic Mouse's scroll action (and those of track pads) is very fine and can be controlled in what seems like pixel increments, whereas the standard PC scroll mouse will scroll a couple of lines, and many mouse wheels have a 'click' to represent this. Unfortunately A!tium doesn't take this into account very well (other programs seem to), so the slightest brush on the mouse surface sends your PCB flying off the screen. The update rate is also a bit slow, so you need to wait several seconds for it to stop moving before you can centre it again. This happens at least to me at least once a minute and is in spite of me turning off autopan and changing the scroll options in Mouse Wheel Configuration to only work if modifiers are held down. Maybe I'd feel better if I printed the Mouse Wheel Configuration screen out and stamped on it?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2010, 12:29:22 pm
content: Why doesn't the forum like the word A!tium and changes the letter l to an !?Seems weird, it can be circumvented by using empty bold tags in the middle: Altium.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2010, 12:48:16 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 07, 2010, 12:15:47 pmQuote from: EEVblog on June 09, 2010, 12:52:55 amNot sure if your tricking the forum software will be picked up by search engines, probably, so I don't think it's very nice to Dave, especially since he's the one providing this all. He doesn't want to involve his employer in this, imagine your employer reading all your posts to check if you said anything bad for the company?Edit: added better quote

author: joelby
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2010, 12:53:01 pm
content: See Dave's post, eight above yours, and perhaps edit your post?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2010, 08:28:08 pm
content: Sorry, I should learn to read the whole thread before posting. I've edited my post.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2010, 01:17:31 pm
content: Thanks for understanding guys.You can be assured that every use of the magic word on the net turns up on the desk of the powers-that-be.I have already been asked to remove some forum posts as a result.Dave.

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2010, 12:52:05 pm
content: I've never used this but it's free, DesignSpark.http://www.designspark.com/pcbIt's RadioSpares (RS) answer to Farnells purchase of Eagle.Heard good reports but not my forte at the moment, biggest problem is component selection is by RS part number so have a copy handy

author: bound
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 05, 2010, 01:48:30 pm
content: I have just send email to Dave asking him to do some tutorial about routing a PCB's , you know somerules for routing power plans , signal plans ... noises . Hope his next video blog will be about this ! cant wait ! Greetings from Poland guys !