Flat speakers in kitchen ceiling - driver size? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 08:08:09 pm
content: Some of you have a lot of sound knowledge, so here goes...I am renovating my house (hence no electronics projects lately) and I would like to fit self made speakers flush with the double ceiling while I am at it.My idea is use the two “speaker out” at the rear of the TV. No amplification.The vertical void space is about 7cm, 10cm max driver depth, the space between joists 60cm.The ceiling is plasterboard, 18mm OSB, 70mm void, concrete.As for the intended use, TV and radio while cooking. So no HiFi pretensions.I was thinking of a single full range driver per speaker, of the kind teen drivers retrofit in their rustbuckets.Any ideas on the driver size, speaker volume, port or batten to make this sound no worse than a car door would be appreciated! No need to go too much in detail!

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 08:28:56 pm
content: Honestly, for your purposes, I think you'd be happy with just some standard 6.5" or 8" speakers they use in conference rooms and throw a little amplifier box up there as well. They aren't expensive and will give you decent sound and volume.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 08:39:59 pm
content: Yes, but...The wife wants them flush with the ceiling as not to distract from the designer lamp over the island...Making the enclosures is no problem for me.Edit:That being said, I could get said speakers, measure the volume, take them apart and fit them in a rectangular enclosure.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 08:54:39 pm
content: I probably wouldn't want to put speakers into the ceiling - you get all sorts of greasy crap in there over time in a kitchen (hot air rises, along with it greasy fumes from the stove, even if there is fume extractor in place). Better find a different place for it.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:04:07 pm
content: Tons of ideas, I will send a PM (in Dutch?)

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:08:54 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on May 20, 2018, 08:54:39 pmThis is an open plane kitchen / dining room.The speakers will be over the central island, about 2.5m away from the vertical of the stove.The stove has a full size hood. There is also a 12m3 per minute permanent extraction.And we don’t do crazy fry ups every day...All to say that, the grease problem has been considered and is of no concern.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:10:43 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on May 20, 2018, 09:04:07 pmI speak English, French, Spanish and incoherent Dutch babble that impresses the locals...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:13:49 pm
content: You can buy speakers specifically designed for flush mounting in walls and ceilings. If you end up needing amplification I've used some of those class D amp boards you can get for a few dollars on ebay and they work quite well. Regarding driver size, generally you want the largest you have room for.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:20:14 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 20, 2018, 09:13:49 pmYes but...I’d rather make my enclosures, as my void space is rather reduced...I was leaning towards 6inch drivers, but not really sure that is ideal.Those D amps are actually a real god idea to match the output of the TV to whatever driver I can chose...

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:23:17 pm
content: Quote from: gildasd on May 20, 2018, 09:10:43 pmhahahaWell with Belgians you never know from which part they are.But yes there are even water proof speakers for ceilings.Hooking them up with a Class-D amp is fine, ideally you also need some kind of filtering.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:31:15 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on May 20, 2018, 09:23:17 pmA long time ago, in another life, I helped a friend install JBL speakers on a concert truck that could withstand direct impacts from filled vodka bottles... my requirements are less extreme!I am leaning toward a simple single driver ported design. The port being curved PVC piping that is not 50mm sewage pipe, no sir.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:36:19 pm
content: Quote from: gildasd on May 20, 2018, 09:31:15 pmTotally forgot about this, but you can also use car-speakers or PA-speakers.Not all of them have a nice front basket, but you can buy these separate.Mounting in the sealing is actually not as bad as people think.Anyway, I will have a look in my huge archiveMy only question is, how loud do you listen to music?(what is the SPL)And what is the budget?

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:41:32 pm
content: This is for my wife, so if she can hear Sia above the kitchen noise, she is happy.I intend to use car speaker as they are cheap and robust.I could even buy two each time, remove the magnet of one, and make an radiator so to seal the box from whatever little grease or birds want to go in there.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:46:20 pm
content: Quote from: gildasd on May 20, 2018, 09:41:32 pmJust removing magnets and hoping that the specs are fine unfortunately doesn't work most of the time.But using a passive radiator isn't a bad idea.Maybe you can even just go for a closed box. If it's just for some "on the background kitchen music"What is cheap? 10 euro a piece, 30 euro a piece?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:49:27 pm
content: There are plenty of ceiling mound speakers available, which need no enclosure. Cut a hole in the ceiling and fit the speaker inside it.What's your budget?http://cpc.farnell.com/pulse/51-881/ceiling-speaker-6-1-2-di-polar/dp/LS02798?st=ceiling%20speakerhttps://www.monacor.com/products/pa-technology/speakers-/flush-mount-speakers/low-impedance/spe-158-ws/It's also possible to use 100V speakers with a standard amplifier designed for 4Ω or 8Ω speakers. A 100V speaker will just be an ordinary 8Ω speaker with a transformer which can be bypassed is you're using an amplifier designed for 8Ω speakers or add a 100V transformer to the amplifier.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:56:51 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on May 20, 2018, 09:49:27 pmI had found that Monacor from another vendor, it can use the TV’s speaker out with no amplification and it’s stack height is perfect. So it fits my needs.My problem is what are the design parameters for the enclosure, namely volume and type.I have made enclosures for others in the past, but never did the calculations or design myself...So this is perfect small project to tip my toes in, as I have bigger ambitions for the TV roomlater on.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 10:12:20 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on May 20, 2018, 09:46:20 pmI think 30 euros-ish per driver is optimal.Power? I think most TV have 10 to 20W speaker out.Edit, man, a ported design is complicated to calculate!http://www.mh-audio.nl/ReflexBoxCalculator.asp

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 10:20:36 pm
content: Quote from: gildasd on May 20, 2018, 08:39:59 pmConference room speakers are generally flush-mounted in the ceiling and no need for additional enclosures. The small amp also sits inside the roof cavity (make sure you put it somewhere you can easily access later if required).I have no experience with this company, but here are some examples:https://www.conferenceroomav.com/Speakers-c/Ceiling_Speakers

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 10:22:39 pm
content: Quote from: gildasd on May 20, 2018, 09:56:51 pmYou don't need an enclosure, just mount the speaker in the ceiling. The speaker will not be designed for use with an enclosure, so it's more likely to sound better without one.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 10:47:42 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on May 20, 2018, 10:22:39 pmOk, then!If I need to amplify, i’ll do it behind the TV as having non lighting “things” in the ceiling complicates the inspection process/rule application.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2018, 07:46:43 am
content: Quote from: gildasd on May 20, 2018, 10:47:42 pmWhether any additional amplification is required depends on how long the cables are, their cross-sectional area and whether more than one speaker is connected in parallel.If the total cable resistance is negligible, compared to the speaker impedance and the total speaker impedance is equal to or under what the amplifier can drive, then no amplification is required. In short, if the cable run isn't longer than what one would normally have between the speakers and TV, and it's only driving one 4Ω speaker per channel or two 8Ω in parallel, then no additional amplifier is required.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2018, 09:12:08 am
content: While looking for something else (flush plinths) I found these;https://www.audiovisualonline.co.uk/product/20049/yamaha-ns-ic400-in-ceiling-speakers-pair/These sweet looking Yamaha’s are maybe overkill, but about 100€ delivered when a no name chinesium would end up at 60€ delivered...It would need amplification tho.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2018, 09:41:38 am
content: Quote from: gildasd on May 27, 2018, 09:12:08 amWhat makes you believe those fancy Yamaha speakers need amplification?It appear like a lot of time has been spent on marketing and aesthetics, perhaps more so than anything else, when developing those speakers. If that's important to you, then go for it, otherwise choose some cheaper speakers, of a well known brand.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2018, 05:55:21 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on May 27, 2018, 09:41:38 amThe Speaker Out of a TV is About 15W, these are 90W, so I think I need amplification, but I have found tiny inwall amps that will pass the wife test.TAking into account finish (these are really flush) a similar model from another brand (I will not buy Ali Express specials), the end price is about the same.Aesthetics are important, these are for the wife’s super modern kitchen, not my workshop!

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2018, 09:14:14 pm
content: Really, for a speaker it's the sensitivity that matters, not the power rating so much.Here, nearly all the speaker manufacturers offer in-ceiling models (in-wall also). The grills are usually paintable so they can be color matched and blend in. For what you're doing I tend to think car speakers might work just as well.https://www.crutchfield.com/g_101500/In-ceiling-Speakers.html?&pg=1

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2018, 09:20:15 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on May 27, 2018, 09:14:14 pmThat's a pretty bald statement, if not even incorrect.It totally depends on the requirements.If someone doesn't need to squeeze out every last bit of dB power can be a fine compromise.In the end it all depends on SPL vs max power vs cone excursion vs frequency response.You can have all at the same time.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2018, 09:33:24 pm
content: I made that statement as a response to the below quote. A speaker rated for 90 watts may not require anything near that to actually work. The sensitivity standard for speakers is defined as the sound volume for 1 watt of power at a distance 1 meter from the speaker.Quote from: gildasd on May 27, 2018, 05:55:21 pm

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2018, 09:37:39 pm
content: It's nowhere near linear either. Many people would be shocked at how loud one Watt of good clean power is on a decent speaker. 500W doesn't sound anywhere near 500 times as loud.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2018, 10:35:04 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 27, 2018, 09:37:39 pmI am just trying to somewhat match the power of the speaker and it's input.I'm not sure what TV I'll get ( they change models week to week)... so I want to make sure what I precable is sufficient.Yamaha is not the cheapest, but only 20 to 30% more , but they pass the wife test.As for me, I like that they are overbuilt.lastly, long time ago I had a career in event design and production, and I cannot recall a single instance of a Yamaha anything having a problem (JBL, Pioneer, Sony, etc all had their odd bad day. I am willing to pay for peace of mind as I am absent for 6 weeks stints and my wife is technically, erm, let's say she is not mains or even 6V rated.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2018, 02:04:39 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on May 27, 2018, 09:33:24 pmThat's correct.In the end you just need to determine the SPL levels plus bandwith.With that you can see what kind of speaker you would need.Although, you can roughly guess based on experience.Problems with kitchen is the noise of the extractor fan.So the question is, is the wife always cooking?Because in that case you need quit some output.In fact I wouldn't even recommend going that loud.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2018, 04:32:39 pm
content: The extractor fan is two floors up (yeah, Bernoulli is unhappy).The stove/oven is quiet, so is the dishwasher.I have yet to buy the microwave, but that will also have to quiet, best moment to buy is Monday morning when shops are empty and relatively silent.We had noisy, ugly and cheap appliances for years to save up for nicer things.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2018, 10:51:51 am
content: Than basically any 5-6.5 inch woofer+tweeter / fullrange will give plenty of noise @ 15-20W

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2018, 12:45:47 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 27, 2018, 09:37:39 pmThis++if it were me, id be installing some Klipsch in-ceiling speakers.https://www.klipsch.com/ceiling-speakers

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2018, 04:40:21 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on May 29, 2018, 12:45:47 pmNice, but at 598€ the pair, they are a bit rich for me!The Yamaha’s at 100€ the pair, allready overkill for a kitchen.For the difference, I’d rather get a second hand digital scope or Dave’s multimeter.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2018, 05:12:19 pm
content: Quote from: gildasd on May 29, 2018, 04:40:21 pm600 bucks is a little much yes.Look at Visaton or Monacor.Otherwise there are some affordable car audio brands that will work as well.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2018, 06:04:22 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on May 29, 2018, 12:45:47 pmThese suck at low frequencies, use these guys instead:https://www.solusloudpeakers.com/symetrie-in-ceilingOnly 3db down at 40hz. I've seen worse sub-woofers.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2018, 06:43:24 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on May 29, 2018, 06:04:22 pmDo they actually meet their advertised specifications? There's a lot of slick marketing there.I'm not the only one who gets put off a product by marketing? Perhaps even more so when it comes to audio. I'd feel more comfortable with a speaker, from a known brand, with a decent data sheet, than any of that Neo-Driven, Liquid-Damped & Cooled nonsense.Quote from: gildasd on May 28, 2018, 10:35:04 amThe power rating of a speaker is the maximum amount of power it can take before it's damaged, not what it should be operated at. I also doubt these speakers will actually be able to handle 90W for very long, without melting. It's most likely the peak power rating, not continuous.I very much doubt you need any amplification. Try them without, then if it's not loud enough, add an amplifier.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2018, 08:04:31 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on May 29, 2018, 06:43:24 pmYes their H-Pass low frequencies technology works (This is achieved by channeling the woofer rear reflection through a damped tuned chamber to extend the lower frequency range). I have their earlier Clements RT-7 floor stand tower speakers which use a much larger version of the technology with a 7 inch woofer. It's flat below 30hz and achieves excellent performance even down at 20hz. Without a subwoofer, when watching a few good modern action movies, they can knock you out of your seat as well as stereo image the subsonic frequencies from center, to left and right and behind you for those movies with LFE effects on all surround channels properly mixed down to stereo instead of the old AC3 mono LFE channel movies. And the H-Pass tech doubles the power efficiency of the VLF frequencies it produces.What's important is that this isn't Chinese designed junk, the audio range and sensitivity is accurate, their low end frequencies beat out most others, and for the price, these guys sound a lot better than the rest.As for the Neo-Driven, Liquid-Damped, that's just a tweeter technology, the Cooled nonsense is just for the woofer voice coil. It's just the way it breathes because it does heat up under heavy loads. You are right, those terms are for marketing, what is important is that the decibel spec and voltage sensitivity is measured accurately.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 12:36:03 am
content: Let's not get carried away here, it's auxiliary speakers for a TV, not a high end home theater system. If it were me I'd probably just buy an inexpensive set of speakers with a decent looking grill, find a used pair of car speakers from craigslist or scrounge my parts bin for some salvaged drivers and find something to use as a grill. I strongly suspect that as long as they look good the wife will approve and almost anything that isn't complete junk or really, really poor efficiency will sound fine. Certainly anything mounted in the ceiling will sound better than the microscopic speakers built into modern TV sets.

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 11:04:11 am
content: You know you can buy speakers that are specifically designed to mount in roofs, right? Some 5-6.5" coaxials (tweeter in the centre of each woofer) and 10-20Watts per channel will be plenty. Make sure the drivers have plastic or metal cones/domes because steam and oily vapours from a kitchen don't mix well with paper or silk coned/domed speakers.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 01:55:39 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 30, 2018, 12:36:03 amThat is exactly my point.It's always interesting how quickly people loose the goals out of sight.Even IF someone had the money and audiophool ears for it, I still wouldn't recommend speakers for 600 bucks placed in a CEILING in a kitchen.That's like using a Tesla just for grocery shopping.Well, even less, since you barely see them