Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: salomonander
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 04:27:29 pm
content: Hey there,Im new to this forum. So hello first off.I work on analog audio gear - studio equipment to be specific. I used to have a hameg analog scope, that i want to replace. Im not a scope expert at all and so far i used it to simply trace signals. Im not certain what i should aim for in terms of bandwidth, sample rate and memory - as i want to learn to do more with it than just trace. And i wont be able to afford any super high end model. Which would be overkill anyways.Atm im looking at the R&S RTC1000 and Keysight 1000x. Both are the entry line of scopes. I did attach a link to a comparison of technical specs. And id be very interested on your take. The keysight does offer frequency response analysis - which might be awesome when working on equalizers. The R&S has better FFT resolution. I have never used FFT - so i have no clue how helpful it might be and if resolution matters in my case.ThanksJakobComparison:https://allice.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Rohde-Schwarz-RTC1000-vs-Keysight-1000X-Compeditor-Sheet-Web.pdfPS: what i really dont like about the r&s is that the screen seems to get deleted in roll mode whenever any adjustment is made. Does anyone know if this has been fixed in a firmware update and if the keysight behaves the same?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 04:35:59 pm
content: In that price range, you should also consider the Siglent SDS2000X HD series (12 bit), and not too far off is the Magnova scope (made by Batronix in Germany).I do audio work, both for pro audio gear and guitar amplifiers / fx, and I have the SDS2000X HD. I was also fine with my older Siglents as well.If you want real audio analyzing better than these scopes offer, take a look at something like the QA403 audio analyzer.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 04:36:46 pm
content: Quote from: salomonander on October 07, 2024, 04:27:29 pmAll proper DSOs delete the trace in roll mode if a setting is changed. This is actually necessary because you will want the trace to be relevant. Any change in settings makes what is on screen already invalid.

author: salomonander
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 04:40:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 07, 2024, 04:36:46 pmAnd i wasn‘t even aware of that 🤦‍♂️😅 thanks!

author: salomonander
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 04:40:56 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on October 07, 2024, 04:35:59 pmThanks, since you work in audio. Would both of these scopes work well? I will take a look at the siglent as well.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 04:52:06 pm
content: Quote from: salomonander on October 07, 2024, 04:27:29 pmRTC 1000 is very old design goin back to Hameg.Keysight 1000X is little newer but very limited. They are both 8 bit with little screens.There are better choices today for less money, and massively better for same money.For audio work i would look for something like QuantAsylum.For the price of Keysight 1204X you can have better scope and QuantAsylum.I would recommend a bit more research.Maybe a bit of explanation what does "audio work" means for you.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 04:53:25 pm
content: Be advised though that frequency response on Siglent scopes can be pretty slow compared to others. If you have the budget, I'd take a long look at the R&S RTB2004

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 04:57:05 pm
content: Quote from: salomonander on October 07, 2024, 04:40:56 pmBy 'both of these,' do you mean the 2 you listed? If so, probably, but I wouldn't go that route. Paying for a name brand like that (especially when outdated and overpriced) doesn't get you better performance or features, it only gets a more popular name brand.The R&S I want is the MXO5, and you can find that (when you're lucky) on sale for around $50,000. I have no interest in Keysight whatsoever.The Siglent is awesome, I enjoy working with it. However, since you're in Germany, you should take a trip to Batronix if you can and check out their new Magnova scope. Batronix also sells Siglent scopes, so you may be able to see both in person.And don't listen to unsubstantiated claims about brand speed. 🙄Thanks,Josh

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 05:04:02 pm
content: Hello,if you really only need 2 channels, a Siglent SDS802X HD for € 427.21 and a matching Siglent SAG1021I function generator for € 284.41 would be interesting.If you would rather have 4 channels then you can take the Siglent SDS804X HD for € 486.71.Best regardsegonotto

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 05:09:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 07, 2024, 04:53:25 pmTo avoid partial information being spread, Siglent's Frequency response also have top class dynamic range and also is industry only simultaneous multi channel.So you can test a 3-Way active X-over outputs LP, BP and HP all at the same time on same graph, for instance. Or frequency response before tone controls, after and after graphic EQ at the same time.In which case it is faster and more usefull that doing 3 separate passes and combining data manually.Like I said, do your own research. Chose what is important to you.If you need fast, interactive frequency response analysis, no scope will be as fast as audio analyser.RTB2000 is very fancy, but in it's core basic scope that is expensive.Being from Germany, if you are close enough and if you can, go to Electronica next month and visit few manufacturers and try a bit.. Make your list of what you need and ask directly.It is not that simple. Sometimes you need to pay more because only one scope will do what you need and you have to pay what they ask. Sometimes scope that is 4x less expensive does better job for your use case. Sometimes less expensive scope is more capable. Sometimes people like big brands because it makes them feel like they bought something "better".To each it's own.

author: salomonander
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 06:12:56 pm
content: Thanks everybody, keep it comingI do have to mention budged here though. Well below 1500€. I could get the RTC100 with generator new for 750€. Which is why i find it so tempting. The Keysight with generator is 1000€. I really dont want to go much higher than that. Unless you guys say that this budged wont get me anywhere.I do repair broken studio equipment. Most of it is vintage (60s-80s) but very high quality. Still, most of the time its just tracing a sine wave to find a defective part and working with a multimeter. I do have an old Wandel and Goltermann generator and meter i use for calibrating. So really basic stuff i guess. It would be amazing to get some kind of frequency analysis though - I do want to get an audio analyzer in the future, but i dont have the funds yet.Oh, and i should mention that i really do hate fans with a passion.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 06:19:39 pm
content: Quote from: salomonander on October 07, 2024, 06:12:56 pmIf that's your budget, I would look seriously at theSiglent SDS2000X Plus. It's €1,199, and has the 2000 level features but only 2 math channels (instead of 4), and it's 8bit instead of 12bit. It also has a built-in AWG. I would buy that again ten times before looking at the lower models that include 12bit.Then I would save up a separate budget for the QA403 eventually. It's probably notneeded, more of a nice to have. Unless you're impatient, and then it's a must have. 😉

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 06:43:58 pm
content: Unless you want a bigger screen, get yourself a DHO800 or an SDS800X-HD. The Siglent has FRA, it is certainly slow, but quite good. You need a Siglent AWG for it to work out of the box, although there are scripts here in the forum to make it interface with other brands' AWGs. Both will set you back around 400-500 bucks, and have low-noise front ends with 12 bit ADCs.The next step, which would be the 2000X-Plus is already 1500 VAT included. Save the extra cash and buy an AWG, or whatever other instrument you could need.

author: Sorama
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 06:49:24 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on October 07, 2024, 06:19:39 pmThe 2000x plus has even 10 bit resolution up to 20 ish MHz.And a really good input front wrt noise, so good for audio.

author: salomonander
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 06:54:06 pm
content: Thanks,the siglent looks interesting. But it being slow kills it for me. And i have read that everywhere so far. Im hardcore adhd and any kind of digital latency drives me mad in millisecondsI was not even aware that this might be an issue coming from an analog one. So i really need a super fast interface. Are all siglents like that?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 06:56:36 pm
content: Quote from: Sorama on October 07, 2024, 06:49:24 pmCorrection:SDS2000X Plus in 10bit mode is 100 MHz capable < all models.The 100 MHz model -3dB point is ~185 MHz.

author: Sorama
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 06:57:08 pm
content: What exactly are you referring to?Slow?

author: Sorama
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 06:58:35 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 07, 2024, 06:56:36 pmEven beter than I tought it was

author: salomonander
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 07:00:06 pm
content: I dont really know as i have never used a digital oneBut i guess people are talking about the speed of the interface? Opening menus etc… please correct me if im wrong as im really not certain. But any kind of latency in menus would be a nogo for me. I hate how slow this digital age feels - everything has latencyThis would be way more important to me than specs. I just called my old electronics guru (broadcast guy) and he said 20 Mhz is all i need

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 07:02:58 pm
content: Quote from: salomonander on October 07, 2024, 06:54:06 pmI only have hands-on experience with SDS800X-HD, Keysight DSOX1204G and GWInstek GDS1054B. The Siglent is fine, nowhere near as fast as the Keysight, but the KS is higher noise, lower memory, and generally has less features, bar the integrated FG (not AWG).The Rigol, as seen in video, seems to respond faster. There is no such thing as a lag-free interface down to the millisecond that I know of, although the fastest will indeed be the Keysight.I don't think DSO manufactures optimize for hardcore ADHD users, so it's kind of hard to recommend many alternatives.

author: salomonander
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 07:05:26 pm
content: Thanks Antonio! Thats interesting. Do you know by any chance where the R&S lands in terms of speed?And may i ask everyone why no one seems to like the R&S? Im just curious and want to learn.

author: Sorama
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 07:07:29 pm
content: I have been using a Hameg scope since late eighties and now use a Siglent 2000x plus and Magnova because the Hameg is no longer (RIP).No issues wrt “slow”.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 07:14:08 pm
content: A lot of people love R&S. It is a very reputable manufacturer, and the MXO series are a thing of beauty. The problem is, they are not competitive at the <1500€ price range, and they don't want to.The RTB2000 would be the closest competitor, and it is a really nice scope. There are a few reviews around youtube, but it is certainly not lag-free. Really, nobody has managed to optimize interface speed and responsiveness as much as Keysight with the Megazoom IV.The Siglent is more analytical. It's oriented towards a more thoughtful use, with longer captures and later analysis. It doesn't seem to be what you are looking for. I'm very happy with mine, but you will notice hiccups on the captured waveform when diving into menus, the acquisition will visibly stop when moving traces, math and FFT will slow things out, etc. Quite normal, just like every other DSO except, for the most part, the KS Megazoom IV.Edit: Have a look at youtube reviews. Skip to the reviewers' twiddling of knobs and selection of different modes of operation, and you will get an idea of each oscilloscope's responsiveness. Other than trying a bunch of them out, it's the next best thing. Instant response is a thing of the past, the only manufacturer that kept trying to emulate old CROs was KS.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 08:35:37 pm
content: Quote from: salomonander on October 07, 2024, 06:54:06 pmThat is why I cringe when some people just throw "en passant" comments, without explanation, at innocent bystanders.It is easy to misunderstood.On Siglent, Frequency response plot is slower than that of Keysight at this time. But it is much better on the other hand, because it does averaging and selective frequency detection. Meaning it can get great results with small signals and even with lots of (electric) noise from environment..Otherwise, all mentioned Siglent scopes are very fast with regards to user experience.

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 10:25:29 pm
content: Hello,for audio applications, a 16-bit PicoScope 4262 could also be of interest.Best regardsegonotto

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 10:57:23 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on October 07, 2024, 04:35:59 pmI would second that you should be looking at a 12 bit scope, it's the new "entry level" spec.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 11:02:49 pm
content: Quote from: salomonander on October 07, 2024, 07:00:06 pmIf UI speed is your absolute priority, then a Keysight with the Megazoom ASIC is the clear winner. With all the scopes in my lab, the Keysights are the best in terms of just everyday usability IMO, so quick, responsive and simple.That being said, they are arguably the worst in terms of bang-per-buck. R&S is probably 2nd worse in that regard.As I said, you'd want a real good reason not to buy a 12bit scope these days, but as always YMMV.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 11:05:12 pm
content: Quote from: Sorama on October 07, 2024, 06:49:24 pmExactly. I used it for audio for 3.5 years before I upgraded to the HD model (which I only did because a ridiculous opportunity slapped me in the face). It was almost always in 10bit mode, and did really well.Quote from: salomonander on October 07, 2024, 07:00:06 pmThe interface isn't slow at all. It's not as fast as the more expensive HD model, but it's by no means slow in its own right.Most scopes, especially less than $3000+, have a relatively slow FFT. Some brands may be marginally better than others, but none are worth bragging about. Unless you spend a minimum of $1000 more on your scope, you won't really see better FFT or Bode plot performance.This is where a proper analyzer like the QA403 comes into play. It will allow you to run specific tests for audio faster than any of the scopes we're talking about. And it's only about $600. So now you have 2 excellent tools instead of 1 that would cost more money and really isn't better for your needs.The only reason not to buy the 12bit version for the scope is that it's probably not worth an extra $1000 to you right now. Maybe it is, compare them. 😉

author: salomonander
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 05:40:59 am
content: Off topic, but i was just offered an audio precision portable one plus that needs calibration. He is asking 1000€ - is that a fair price. Or what would be appropriate?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 10:28:18 am
content: Quote from: salomonander on October 08, 2024, 05:40:59 amI do believe that's a bargain. You could flip that on ebay and get a free scope with the profits.

author: salomonander
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 10:39:30 am
content: Thanks, i thought so as well. The specs are insane. THD+N -130dB

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 11:16:12 am
content: Quote from: salomonander on October 08, 2024, 10:39:30 amYes, I bought an AP2700 for $500 from a previous company I worked for. Sold it on ebay for $8k I think it was. Great bits of kit.

author: fabrizio_fabrice
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 07:10:41 pm
content: It depends on your intended use. Analysis is one thing, but you say you do repairs.I have several older Tek analog scopes, which have great triggering features for small-signal analog work, especially. In contrast, I find the Siglent SDS1202X/E very frustrating to use.Mentioned trigger features are all digital methods, and only 1 trigger input. If you have a sig gen for trigger, an attenuated output could work for probing.The Siglent FFT is a great feature; wish mine produced Bode plots. It's sensitive enough to show MW RF signals across the band with nothing more than a short wire... (and averaging). But that's RF-speak.Maybe other here can say how they approach audio repairs?π

author: BennoG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 07:40:56 pm
content: Quote from: egonotto on October 07, 2024, 10:25:29 pmYes I would also go for a 14 / 16 bit picoscope.I use them from 2012 and also have a tektronix mso4104, 99 our of 100 I use the picoscope.There is a bode plot using the SKD with a lot of community supporthttps://www.picotech.com/support/viewtopic.php?t=14311Benno

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2024, 09:57:49 am
content: Fixing audio circuits I’d think any scope will do. All you want to do is follow a waveform in the circuit, no?I don’t think a scope is any good for THD, and so on since they don’t have the resolution or dynamic range, measurements its <100kHz so maybe even a good (external) studio sound card for the distortion, noise etc? Or 2nd hand, e.g., Neutrik audio analyser gear, but they are probably too expensive.Or am I completely out of the loop for audio?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2024, 02:10:48 pm
content: Quote from: Neganur on October 20, 2024, 09:57:49 amOnly partially. 😉 That Neutrik is a dinosaur. There are devices like the Quant Asylum QA403 that do much better.A good modern scope is fine for the other stuff, doesn't need to be 16bit. I'm using a Siglent HD scope for audio, and it works great. The 8bit I had before it was fine too.

author: BennoG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 07:43:27 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on October 20, 2024, 02:10:48 pmAs long as you are not interested in noise levels and distortion of the audio amplifier then every cheap 8 bit scope will do.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 04:01:50 pm
content: Quote from: BennoG on October 21, 2024, 07:43:27 amExactly. And if you are interested in that, then a device like the QA403 is a better tool for that purpose anyway. Combo of a good scope + good audio analyzer = better than any scope by itself on the market for audio work.

author: Darkover
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 05:28:01 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 07, 2024, 05:09:29 pmI think the RTB is good for audio work because of its bode plot feature!If money is a problem, buy the two channel with 70Mhz, but with bode plot.Olaf

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 06:51:59 pm
content: Quote from: Darkover on October 21, 2024, 05:28:01 pmRTB2002 is $1840 USD.RTB-K36 FRA/Bode plot option is $740 USD.Siglent SDS2204X HD is $2400 with Bode plot function included on a 12bit scope. Or you can get the SDS2104X Plus for $1400 with 10 bit mode and Bode plot function included.None of those will outperform a dedicated audio analyzer.R&S is nice, but it's not the best option, especially not if budget is a concern.