Triton Artificial Gills - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: sswift
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2016, 08:23:24 am
content: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton-world-s-first-artificial-gills-re-breather#/This would be an awesome product... if it weren't physically impossible to extract that much oxygen from the water through filtering. That would require over 200L of water to pass through the gills per minute even if they have designed a filter that can separate oxygen from seawater.Analysis here:https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/4av9xw/triton_allows_you_to_breathe_underwater_100k_in/d13so58Still, I wonder if it might be one day possible to create a product like this using electrolysis and a large battery pack strapped to your back. If you used a closed-circuit system like a rebreather, perhaps it could be made to work?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RebreatherThe problem with electrolysis, besides it likely being extremely difficult to do on seawater, is that it produces pure oxygen - which is poisonous. But with a closed system you could recycle the CO2 to bring the concentration down to a safe level.But that article says around 4L per minute of oxygen is required for someone exercising. I assume you get 1L of oxygen per 1L of water? Or is it 1/2? Either way, seems like something that maybe you could achieve in a device that straps to your back and is the size of the rebreather in the Wikipedia article.The question though is how much power you'd need and if present battery technology would be capable of sustaining it for any period of time. I believe those rebreathers can last for quite a long time as I'm pretty sure I've heard of cave divers using them and staying under for a day or more, so that would be the metric to beat.And speaking of rebreathers, I just noticed their campaign says "re-breather" in the title, but it doesn't appear to be designed to store and return any of the air you exhale and there are tons of bubbles in the photos.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2016, 08:25:54 am
content: It has a fishy smell.Alexander.

author: kwass
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2016, 12:48:41 pm
content: My take on this is that it's not an "artificial gill" at all but simply a battery powered atmospheric air compressor that requires you to surface every minute or so. It will compress a few litters of air into it's storage tank and allow you to breath a few times under water before you repeat the process.It's not a bad idea I think, but it should be honestly advertised.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2016, 03:44:10 pm
content: They only talk about oxygen, so they basically don't even have any idea of diving or high pressure physiology.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2016, 07:49:24 pm
content: It looks like an Airing with even more bullshit extended out the side....AIRING:TRITON:Same issues though... You have to throw out physics to make either of them actually work, and they have raised oodles of money. No working prototype. Not even a hint of how it may even work, and the type of power system required. These are what I like to call in the "STAR TREK" Category of scams... That is, it will only exist in the year 2400:

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2016, 04:23:39 pm
content: People in the comments asking about this articlehttp://www.deepseanews.com/2014/01/triton-not-dive-or-dive-not-there-is-no-triton/..and still every 10 min a new sucker!

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 06:15:50 am
content: The battery is 30 times smaller and recharges 1000 times faster than a Lithium battery

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 06:44:47 am
content: https://youtu.be/obqxzmmv7uMThe video is all cut up. But especially noticed the end when he's on his back at 1:40..... he stays at the bottom when he stops swimming while wearing no diving weights and not anywhere deep enough for buoyancy loss..... which means his lungs are almost empty lolAlso see the team listing.... industrial designer, "entrepreneur", marketing....... no engineer

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 03:49:00 pm
content: IndieGogo/Flexible Funding = They can take your money no matter whether they meet goal or not.And they have met goal, and they have (as of this post) around $340,000... and the possible consequences or criminal liabilities are ZERO. Of course, we are all making the assumption that they are simply scamming the public. To play Devil's advocate, if they are actually deluded into thinking that with enough money thrown at the problem they could actually hire the right people to make this thing happen... they will just pay some people for a few years and squander it all away when they give up.If backers are lucky, they will post regular updates for 1-2 years, showing "progress" and maybe some prototypes or various "scientific-looking" data or photos of lab equipment, and then eventually say they can't deliver... By then most backers would have either forgotten or succumbed to "attrition" and these con artists would be sitting on money stashed up in secret Swiss bank accounts (unless they actually tried to at least make it happen and hired engineers and bought equipment).SO either they know it's not possible and tricking everyone and plan not to spent a cent, or they are clueless and think it can happen and waste it all on development and come up with nothing. I don't know which one to believe. I also can't believe so many people would throw $299 at this thing.Who needs a job anymore? Just come up with Star Trek gadget or Back To The Future gadget and kickstart it. A little bit of Photoshop and 3D Rendering skills is all you need, churn it through the bullshit-o-matic 5000, and that's a sure-fire ticket to a big lump cash sum. I picked the wrong profession...

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 09:05:41 pm
content: I think it's just two tiny bottles of oxygen hidden inside the 'arms' of the device.Anyone who's seen a handheld butane torch/soldering iron, will know the size of bottle I mean.Also they claim to put high energy density batteries in this thing. I don't want to think about what could happen should water get into the charging socket/electronics.This goes way beyond IP66 rating.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 10:16:42 pm
content: Quote from: station240 on March 21, 2016, 09:05:41 pmI think it's much more simple than that.Someone that age, height, and fitness probably has a vital capacity somewhere around 5-6 liters or more. He's just exhaling.Which is why near the end of the cut at 1:40 he sinks, rather than floats at the beginning. Also the fact the video is cut multiple times.Also the fact that the claims they are making would possibly put them up for consideration for multiple Nobel prizes.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 01:20:58 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 21, 2016, 10:16:42 pmIt's fake, and they know it. I predict IGG will let this sham run it's course and then at the moment the project creator(s) try to cash in on their jackpot they will get a rude awakening. Maybe IGG wants to just see how far stupidity will go. They can just not charge anyone's credit card. Nothing lost, nothing gained.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 01:32:46 am
content: Quotehttp://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/GillyweedTriton Artificial Gills are just another fairy tale.I cannot understand why there are so many gullible people on this planet.

author: lwatts666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 06:08:17 am
content: NASA estimates human oxygen consumption at 840g/day, about 0.6g/minute. Oxygen solubility in water at 20C is about 9mg/l (less for salt water, less as water warms). Assuming that the water is fully saturated with oxygen, and ALL that oxygen can be extracted, then the device must pass at least 67 liters per minute of water through the 'filter'.With a water jet like that coming out of the device, its no wonder the video talked about biting down on the mouthpiece...

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 11:14:00 am
content: Quote from: edy on March 22, 2016, 01:20:58 amIGG will never ever stop it, all they want is 5% of the pledged money. On top of it they "invented" flexible funding (you get the money even if you not reach your goal) and InDemand (Campaign stays open as long as you want). Many people wrote IGG about Ritot, they did absolutely nothing. Ah wait... IGG let them beta test InDemand as the first campaign! This company is

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 11:56:29 am
content: They also say the maximum depth is 15 feet. The explanation for this is in the comments, normally you would think pressure. Not at all, they say the oxygen level drops as deeper you go and that's why the limit is 15 feet.This is true and false, the oxygen level drops between 200-800m.http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Re-St/Sea-Water-Gases-in.html

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 05:18:02 pm
content: Quote from: edy on March 22, 2016, 01:20:58 amNope. It will absolutely run to completion, IGG will take their cut, and all of the supporters will be screwed. It's happened plenty of times before, and it will continue to happen as long as people continue to think with their imaginations instead of reason.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 05:24:42 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on March 22, 2016, 05:18:02 pm+1. IGG of course wouldn't spit on their cut.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 11:14:09 pm
content: Just look at the people behind it:An industrial design graduate with not much a experience:https://kr.linkedin.com/in/jeabyunA "Swedish entrepreneur"and the obligatory "marketing genius"Yeah, this has winner written all over it...

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 11:20:53 pm
content: Gotta love the team. Wooooooow, it's absolutely perfect.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 11:21:11 pm
content: And this project is old it seems, from 2014:http://www.deepseanews.com/2014/01/triton-not-dive-or-dive-not-there-is-no-triton/Technical detail from that link:Quote

author: cavac
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 12:18:34 am
content: Quote from: lwatts666 on March 22, 2016, 06:08:17 amYou shouldn't have said that. Now they're gonna market the thing as a dual use device: Air supply AND the worlds first underwater jet ski.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 02:26:54 am
content: Quote from: Kalidor on March 21, 2016, 06:15:50 amDirectly from Jeabyun Yeon BE page:"The micro compressor operates through micro battery. The micro battery is a next-generation technology with a size 30 times smaller than current battery that can quickly charge 1,000 times faster."https://www.behance.net/gallery/13434535/TRITONSo it looks like according to him, for this thing to work battery density has to increase by more than an order of magnitude, and the charge rates by two orders of magnitude... Nobel prize?

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 02:32:23 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 22, 2016, 11:21:11 pmTriton was actually Jeabyun Yeon graduation industrial design project in 2013.https://www.sadi.net/web/www/65?p_p_id=EXT_BBS&p_p_lifecycle=1&p_p_state=exclusive&p_p_mode=view&p_p_col_id=column-1&p_p_col_count=1&_EXT_BBS_struts_action=%2Fext%2Fbbs%2Fget_file&_EXT_BBS_extFileId=156PDF page 50 and 53

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 03:02:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 22, 2016, 11:21:11 pmThat's a good start on why this won't work. There are several other reasons. For example: Human ventilation requires a relatively large volume of gas moving both in and out of the lungs. Tidal volume at rest is 500ml as he says - and it will be a larger volume with physical exertion - and the respiratory rate goes up with exertion. It's the minute ventilation (volume/breath x breaths/minute) that matters. Even if you could get a device to produce 35 mg of O2 per breath as he calculates - delivering that much O2 alone to the lungs will not be sufficient to sustain life. The O2 needs to be part of a larger volume of gas to inflate the lungs and create the pressure differential at the alveoli to allow diffusion of the the O2 into the capillaries. AND - you need to have a volume of gas in the lungs with a partial pressure of CO2 low enough to allow diffusion of CO2 out of the blood into the lung to be exhaled with respiration.Then there's the whole issue of the pressure required to inflate the lungs when deep underwater. There's a reason divers breath compressed air. Try taking a garden hose and sinking to the bottom of the deep end of a swimming pool - then using the hose to breath air from the surface. It ain't gonna work very well..Bottom line - it's not just about the oxygen. As one of my med school profs was fond of saying: "Air must go in and out, blood must go 'round and 'round"

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 03:29:13 am
content: They responded to my tweet:http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sofotbQuoteHe seems to be under some misapprehension about how patents work. Once you file the patent you are protected, you are then free to publish anything you want.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 03:31:54 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on March 23, 2016, 03:02:48 amAlways great to have expert technical input from our resident medical doctor!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 03:37:45 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 23, 2016, 03:29:13 amWell, looks like I got trolled nicely by a fake twitter account!

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 03:53:16 am
content: LOL

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 04:29:16 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 23, 2016, 04:07:49 amThe pressure at 100 ft underwater is pretty high from a physiology standpoint. As I mentioned above - even if you had a device that could produce the sufficient gas mixture (this never will) - it would need to be produced at a high enough pressure to inflate the lungs. A person cannot reliably produce adequate negative inspiratory force (suction) at 10 feet under water to ventilate the lungs with gas at 1 atmosphere pressure. Forget about 100 feet.Maybe the Triton is planning to incorporate supercharged versions of the Airing's magic microblowers.. - oh yeah then again those can't even produce the 10 cm H2O pressure needed to treat sleep apnea..

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 04:51:09 am
content: They have the problem completely wrongYou can easily carry oxygen with you.Liquid O2 1 liter bottle holds 1.1kgof oxygen. According to the previous post you need 35mgper breath. 1 liter bottle is going to last a while.So the problem is you actually need more volume to breath, both as a carrier to fill your lungs with o2, and as a medium to get rid of co2 from your body.So their purposed system would be way more useful if it could primarily extract a large volume of nitrogen from the water, rather than oxygen (or maybe some o2)......I think there is less nitrogen in water than oxygen thoughWhat could also be useful is if they reversed the membrane function to remove C02, and reuse the carrier while adding some O2. This would be a new type of re-breather.Or a combination of the two above or whatever.Point is they probably "solved" the wrong problem even in fantasy land.

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 05:36:36 am
content: Liquid oxygen must be stored cryogenically, O2 cylinders contain gaseous oxygen. LO2 tanks are vacuum insulated and need constant pressure venting to prevent rupture. Its not a practical way to store small amounts of breathing O2.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 06:01:02 am
content: Quote from: Nerull on March 23, 2016, 05:36:36 amLiquid 02 was used in soviet rebreather units for 6+ hour dives. The low temp was used to also condense the co2 out of the breathing loop.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 06:14:29 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 23, 2016, 05:24:40 amI didn't mean to suggest for long term storage, just for diving. Typical small dewars can hold for a few days upto a week.The main point was that they need way more volume of gas to fill the lungs and get rid of co2 (likely the harder problems), instead it seems they focused only on a small amount of oxygen

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 06:41:07 am
content: I wonder if this has the potential to also extract other things, such as chlorine gas, bromine, or others from pool water?

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 07:33:41 am
content: They blocked me on Youtube, I knew this is possible, but what's new for me is that IGG has now also such a function. If I try to write a comment the response is "An unknown error has occurred."

author: PeterL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 10:41:00 am
content: Swimming around in salty water with a modified Lithium Ion battery in your mouth.What could possibly go wrong...

author: Khendrask
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 11:01:34 am
content: Forget the pure implausibility of producing enough breathable oxygen for a moment via whatever magical compressors the art-concept design might have...They describe a "Microporous membrane" to actually extract the gases from water. That means that the "Micropourous membrane" must remain open to O2 molecules, yet block everything else. How long do you think it would take for that nonsense to clog up in anything but pure, distilled water?Oh, I see, they place a "Water Filter" around the membrane... again, a filter that will will allow only water and O2 to pass, but not get clogged from, oh, say, plankton?Someone needs to make a new website "IndieNoGo.org" to vet these absurd ideas, since IGG et al block and remove any negative comments.

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 01:33:43 pm
content: One issue with squeezing oxygen through a filter to extract it from water is going to be that O2 molecules are larger than water molecules. You're going to need something fancier than micropores - a hydrophobic membrane, perhaps.http://www.techbriefs.com/component/content/article/1068Assuming you could perfectly extract dissolved oxygen from seawater, you would need to process 51 gallons of water per minute to supply one diver with oxygen. This is about 25 times the flow rate of an average kitchen faucet. You could, presumably, also use this device for jet propulsion.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 02:19:56 pm
content: Quote from: Nerull on March 23, 2016, 01:33:43 pmThey are likely using a contactor. Used for degassing fluids and stuff.

author: Khendrask
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 03:01:22 pm
content: Many of these campaigns seem to have one thing in common... A new "Super Efficient, Super Capacity Battery", typically at least 30x better then anything else out there to date.If it were me, and I did have that, that would be my product; not a gizmo to use it in.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 03:25:57 pm
content: Quote from: Khendrask on March 23, 2016, 03:01:22 pmYes totally. But as a note, I don't think they have actually said they were going to develop the battery. Everything (I think) saysnext-genbattery........

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 10:35:06 pm
content: This super battery is the next project for Bob and Probes.....

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 12:49:44 pm
content: QuoteThey probably have added a tube so the battery can safely operate

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 01:48:43 pm
content: Quote from: Khendrask on March 23, 2016, 11:01:34 amThis would not help, remember Ritot, many people wrote in the comments why it is not feasible, they gave up deleting the comments after they recognized that negative comments don't stop the money flow. The comment section was and still is full of such "negative" comments and during InDemand they still got $1000/day.Btw, Triton refunded my $1 (I didn't asked for it) and deleted all of my comments always almost immediately, same for the Youtube comments, they monitor all comments 7x24h.The best thing is that you have to logoff to see if a comment is deleted, as long as your logged in you will always see your comments and that's true for IGG and YT.IMO IGG is responsible because the do nothing, even after the got multiple times informed about a scampaign. They will do absolutely nothing because they just want the $$$.

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2016, 03:44:13 pm
content: Some begin to speculate if this device does electrolysis, here my two cents to this.They say it runs for 45min you need about 25g of O2 for 45min.To produce 1kg O2 with electrolysis you need 17.73 MJ. For 25g you need 443.3 kJ which is 123.1 Wh.The best rechargeable lithium batteries have a energy density of 0.87 MJ/kg.This results in a battery that weights 510g without any casing.In addition to that electrolysis would also produce chlorine gas at the anode (where the O2 is) if you are diving in sea/saline water.Not to say that you need a re-breather and a CO2 filter.This is a 120Wh Lithium battery ($200, 780g)http://www.amazon.com/8000mAh-Li-ion-Rechargeable-Battery-Camera/dp/B00J7LQS2W

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2016, 04:28:00 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 23, 2016, 02:26:54 amWhy battery? They could license technology from uBeam and power it using an ultrasound beam from base stations on the shore.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2016, 04:45:55 pm
content: Better yet, they could harvest ultrasonic energy already in the ocean, i.e. Emitted by dolphins and submarines.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2016, 05:05:38 pm
content: Quote from: Kalidor on March 28, 2016, 03:44:13 pmNot electrolysis, 99.9% certain it's a membrane contactor.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2016, 05:38:40 pm
content: Quote from: Kalidor on March 28, 2016, 03:44:13 pmOnly 25g ? How much litres is that under lets say 20 bar of pressure?They could make them with O2 cartridges if it is that little you need.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2016, 03:07:55 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on March 28, 2016, 05:38:40 pmCouple of things...1) The debunking site linked before says we breathe in 21% oxygen and breathe out 16%, and all the calculations are based on that (it works out to 35.5mg of oxygen per breath). But I wonder if we only breathed in gas with 35.5mg of oxygen, would we be able to use all that 35.5mg? I am guessing our lungs aren't 100% efficient so if we only had 35.5mg available per breath, I think we'd perhaps suffocate. I know humans can survive in thinner oxygen environments but I wonder what the limit is before there's not enough O2 to sustain consciousness?2) You could probably get 25g of oxygen into those little canisters pretty easily, except for the fact that pure O2 will kill us, so there would need to be 95% of "something else" to go along with that 25 grams of O2 making it a lot more by volume and weight than just the needed oxygen.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2016, 04:15:25 am
content: I think this is about as close as you could realistically get, with a battery possibly topping up the tank with a pump and reusing the C02 scrubber at the surface. note that size is a 10 minute emergency kit,More or less they could adopt a similar approach if they had a power source capable of extracting lets say 50mL of oxygen per breath max, but i can not see them pulling it off without a breathing bag,http://oceanrebreathers.com/micro_rebreather.asp

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2016, 04:54:22 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on March 28, 2016, 05:38:40 pmThe density of O2 is 1.429 g/L25g = 17.5LOxygen can be bought in cylinders with a pressure of 200bar. So you need a 87.5ml cylinder for 25gIt's not only possible it exists, called a re-breather.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RebreatherTriton can never be a re-breather, where do you want to store the exhaled air?

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2016, 05:09:20 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 29, 2016, 03:07:55 amYes it must be a re-breather, that's what the title implies "Triton, World's First Artificial Gills Re-breather", the calculation is based on scuba diver lecture, 1-2L oxygen per day. Nasa came up with 800ml but that's maybe because they calculated it with sleeping time and for Zero G.But it's not possible that a device that small can be a re-breather, where should it store the exhaled air?Not only pure O2 can kill us, you have to get rid of the CO2.

author: yjb851220
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 29, 2016, 09:38:30 pm
content: On the indiegogo site it says: April 2014 - We made our first prototype, April 2015 - Complete functional prototype, then, on the Behance site Jeabyun Yeon says: September 2015 - There is currently a prototype . Concept Design."Concept Design"

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2016, 11:38:23 pm
content: Quote from: yjb851220 on March 29, 2016, 09:38:30 pmI don't have any problem with that - if they had a believable design. The first prototype proves the principles but may not be usable. The second prototype is fully functional, meets all the claimed specs but it ugly and non-mass manufacturable. The third prototype is the actual prototype of the final product as it will be manufactured including the fancy plastic mouldings.The thing about this is if they actually do have a second "Complete functional prototype", they would be able to specify exactly what the device will do. If it has changed from the original proposal, they should be letting all the contributors know about the changes.But if they have a battery that is 30 times smaller then current batteries and charges 1000 times faster - they don't need to mess around with a rebreather. A company like Apple would hand over billions dollars today to lock in the rights to that technology. They could pay back every contributor tenfold and hardly notice.If it turns out they made a few typing mistakes - such as their battery is actually a lithium ion battery, and it is the same size as current batteries and charges exactly as fast as current batteries - they should be letting contributors know.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 12:00:00 am
content: I don't know if it has been mentioned, but I think I have found the "30 times smaller" battery.It is a research project at the University of Illinois to fabricate Lithium Ion batteries in a new way:http://www.extremetech.com/computing/153614-new-lithium-ion-battery-design-thats-2000-times-more-powerful-recharges-1000-times-fasterThey were predicting it could have the same power density as Lithium Ion batteries but can be discharged faster. Here is a quote from the press release in 2013:QuoteLooking at the graphs, it actually appears that the button-sized test batteries made by the University before this press release have an energy density of at least an order of magnitude lower then current Lithium technology.So other then the fast recharge, all you are getting is a micro battery that you can flatten in a minute. It does not give any extra power to stay under water longer. And using experimental technology in an application where your life depends on it?

author: yjb851220
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 12:09:40 am
content: Quote from: amspire on March 29, 2016, 11:38:23 pmThey have not made a "Complete functional prototype". It's just a lie and everyone is catching onto it. From the indiegogo webpage:What's next?We have created a working prototype, the next step is:Finalize the engineeringOversee productionCreate and finalize the Triton caseFollow up our patentsConduct final tests before we start manufacturing

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 12:41:06 am
content: Quote from: yjb851220 on March 30, 2016, 12:09:40 amThey are very keen on these patents. If they can get a bunch of patents funded by Triton contributors, then they can sit on them, even if they never make anything. I am sure that the contributors thought their money was going towards the manufacturing of a tested product, and not to lawyers for some world-wide patents.I hate the fact that you can patent an "idea" even though you have no ability at all to make the idea work.

author: altaic
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 09:12:28 am
content: If there is electrolysis involved, I'm not so sure that this project is total bullshit.Electrolysis takes ~12kJ of energy to produce 1 liter of hydrogen in the ideal case, which means 0.5 liter of oxygen is also produced. The tidal volume (one normal breath) of an average adult is 0.5 liters, but air is only 20% oxygen, so only 0.1 liter of oxygen is necessary. Hydrogen is not poisonous, so up the ratio of oxygen to 0.33%, or 0.16 liters oxygen and 0.33 liters of hydrogen, for an overall ideal amount of energy being 4kJ per breath, which is ~1 Wh per breath. Just don't light a cigarette after taking a breath from the thing.Adults have a resting breathing rate of 12-18 breaths per minute, or 720-1080 breaths per hour, which equates to 720W to 1080W average. Divide that by 2, since there are two generators on this device and you get an average power draw of 360W to 540W. They say "enjoy up to 45 minutes of snorkeling", which means the energy stored has to be 270Wh to 405Wh. There are li-ion batteries that claim 350Wh/kg, so that'd be 1.7lbs per generator for the best case 270Wh figure, so 3.4lbs total. Kinda hefty, but not orders of magnitude off.Now, lets make the figures a bit more realistic:1) The electrolysis won't be 100% efficient. A catalyst and electrolyte can get pretty decent efficiency, say 60%; no idea what catalyst they'd use, but it's immersed in saltwater, so the electrolyte's already there. Being pretty generous, that'd bring the battery to 450Wh which would weigh ~2.8lbs, or ~5.6lbs for both generators. Still not too far out there, and weight doesn't really matter under water; just slap some foam on it to compensate the lack of buoyancy.2) People generally don't swim with a resting respiratory rate and tidal volume, though it varies vastly from person to person. From SCUBA, I've seen some people suck air like it's going out of style. For marketing, I'd imagine they had (or are planning on having) somebody meditating in a pool to get an ultra low respiratory rate for "up to 45 minutes". *Shrug* that's typical marketing for you.3) I'd be very interested as far as their catalyst(s) go, since I'm not fond of breathing chlorine gas or hydrochloric acid.So, for typical use, I'd say it could do the business for 5 or 10 minutes, which isn't a bad outlook for a first gen device. And, it's marketed as a snorkeling accessory so it's not really life threatening when it runs out of juice (likely you would notice it slowing down generation and just surface). But anyway, that's all based on napkin calculations from general info on wikipedia (water electrolysis, hydrogen production, lung capacity, respiratory rate, power-to-weight ratio). Also, I've been awake for way too long, so I may have made some sort of critical error in said calculations. Good night.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 09:22:59 am
content: Quote from: altaic on March 30, 2016, 09:12:28 amNot electrolysis, 99.9% certain it's a membrane contactor.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 09:59:52 am
content: Quote from: altaic on March 30, 2016, 09:12:28 amBut they'd still be an order of magnitude (actually more like 2) larger than the space they allocate for it in their "thing"...

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 11:11:56 am
content: Hmm, I thought i would take the extreme, what would it take to build the smallest possible closed circuit re-breather, (closed allow for lower stored air volume than open)An oddity of this is, the average person could survive for a day off a 60L scuba tank at the surface while idle, (11000L / 200 bar = 55L), but such a tank would be too heavy for the average person to move, so thats our baseline, so for that we have 21% as oxygen, or 2310L of oxygen, 8580L of nitrogen 3.3L of Carbon Dioxide, and 117L of argon and other gases, for at surface at rest, for an entire day, with only 660L of that oxygen actually being used,So what do we know, for a closed circuit re-breather, you need primarily oxygen, some nitrogen, and a tiny reserve of carbon dioxide that doesn't go through the filter to keep your brain happy, and can ignore those other gases and make up the difference with nitrogen,We breath in 0.5 Liters of, Breath out 0.5 Liters, Then The lime soda scrubber absorbs 0.03L of carbon dioxide increasing its mass, but not reducing the pressure in the loop, so your left with 16% oxygen and 84% nitrogen, (Pressure Remains the same, but the carbon dioxide being effectively scrubbed gains you an extra % of oxygen as the volume has reduced by 30mL)so to add back in 5% of oxygen (25mL) assuming we don't have a way to isolate nitrogen, would require venting 5.24mL of Oxygen and 20mL of nitrogen, to equalize pressure, in otherwords we only get an effective use from 79% of the oxygen we tank with the simplest option possible, note this is purely focused on a rigid air volume design like what they have drawn, with a breathing bag it works a little differently, not to mention with each breath you run out of nitrogen and breathing volume as the filter fills up, assuming the bare minimum, you get 16 breaths before its kaput,Now if we take a breathing bag style with expanding volumes, and some overhead (breath out and breath in volume with filter between, lets say 2L per bag) you have a similar breath out, the filter captures the carbon maintains the same volume, you would be at something like 19.5% oxygen on the other side of the filter, it adds in a fresh 30mL, the pressure in the loop increases by approximately 750 Pascals, (0.75Kpa) and likely expands to compensate to some degree, As such you maintain your fixed volume of nitrogen, and have many breaths before the pressure release valve on the breathing bags gets triggered, then you back-fill the lost portion of nitrogen to make up the difference on the next breath cycle, This leaves us with roughly a 150mL oxygen bottle, and from looking around generally the same size for Nitrogen or "Dilutant" bottle for 1 Hour on the surface,Lets assume we plonk someone down for a 1 hour dive time at 10 meters, a normal recreational dive, where they would normally use a 12L tank of air at 200 Bar, So using our resting baseline that means that they use up 2400L of air in an hour, now if they spend most of there time at that 10m mark, that means the work rate is ((2400 / 2) / 11000 * 24) = 2.61 Hours per hour, or a breathing rate of 78.3mL of oxygen per breath at the surface, this more or less gives us a guideline to how big our tanks need to be,So lets take that 150mL bottle, * 2 for the depth of 10m, then * 2.61 for the work rate, we end up with a 0.8L tank pair, or 230g of oxygen and 200g of Nitrogen, Compared to 3.1Kg of air for the 12L tank dive, sadly the tanks them self out of water still weight 1.7Kg each (3.4 + 0.43 = 3.83Kg), vs the single 13Kg (13 + 3.1 = 16.1Kg) air tank, much lighter but not something you would stick on your face until you where already underwater. This is all assuming a 200 Bar pressure.The filter to hold the soda lime seems to come more or less around the 5Kg mark which seems to cover 4 dives, again i would assume this is for safety margin, bringing the re-breather at this low end up to 8.8Kg, then the expansion bags, should be light, and the electronics and solenoids, lets bargin 700grams for that, so 9.5Kg is about the smallest i could see such a thing being done for with a normal recreational dive in mind, too heavy to stick on a face, but quite possible to build into a backpack,At least that is the best approach i can come up with without waving a magic wand,There is a darker way to approach this, you can replace the nitrogen with hydrogen, as its less likely to cause nitrogen sickness at depth, which would allow electrolysis to recharge, (providing you can scrub the other nasties) but its still 3670 Watt hours to electrolyse 1L of water assuming everything goes perfectly, and to do that 1 hour dive, you need 320L electrolysed for every hour at that depth, which is way more than any battery a person could physically lift could produce, (a normal car battery only gives you about 1200 Watt Hours),much easier to run atmosphere through a dust and air filter then carbon dioxide scrubber to recharge at the surface, you could then use a normal nitrogen membrane to seperate off the nitrogen from the oxygen, and bobs your uncle for quick and dirty (and possibly unsafe) now this part just for the air compressing would only take 120 Watt hours to pump both tanks to pressure, plus what other loads the filters and nitrogen membrane add, but more than reasonable on a sizable lithium, Set up your recharge tanks on the beach, leave it to recharge over the hour your re-breather dive takes, and do back to back dives until your filter needs replacing (probably 2-3 dives)

author: altaic
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 05:04:36 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 30, 2016, 09:22:59 amBut what kind of membrane? One could make a membrane, catalyzer, and battery all in one structure. Think metal-air cell batteries, but instead of producing electricity, it produces oxygen and hydrogen. Might even be able to recatalyze some of the hydrogen with the oxygen already dissolved in the water.

author: altaic
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 05:15:11 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on March 30, 2016, 09:59:52 amYeah, it'd need to be bigger, but not so sure about 2 orders of magnitude; the battery I was referring to from wikipedia is 320Wh/l . Hmm, I noticed they have a vibrator in the mouthpiece. Maybe they're energy harvesting the user's breathing?http://sionpower.com/pdf/articles/LIS%20Spec%20Sheet%2010-3-08.pdf

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 05:22:41 pm
content: Quote from: altaic on March 30, 2016, 05:04:36 pmPorous hollow fiber contactor

author: altaic
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2016, 05:25:09 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 30, 2016, 05:22:41 pmEh, yeah, just looked at their pretty diagrams and it looks like they're really saying it's two membrane modules and a tiny lithium ion battery, which reeks of BS. OTOH, perhaps they're trying to protect their IP by misrepresenting their secret sauce.

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2016, 04:57:55 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 23, 2016, 02:32:23 amLooks like on page 51 is his private e-mail address and mobile number.Yeon, Jea Byunyjb851220@gmail.com010–2812–8785

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2016, 05:10:59 pm
content: LinkedIn ProfilesIMO that's a strange team, does anyone knows if you can fake LinkedIn profiles?Jeabyun Yeonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/jeabyun?authType=NAME_SEARCH&authToken=vRkf&locale=en_US&trk=tyah&trkInfo=clickedVertical%3Amynetwork%2CclickedEntityId%3A226632442%2CauthType%3ANAME_SEARCH%2Cidx%3A1-1-1%2CtarId%3A1459345614422%2Ctas%3AJeabyun%20YeonSaeed Khademihttps://www.linkedin.com/in/saeed-khademi-1545a136?authType=NAME_SEARCH&authToken=5_wR&locale=en_US&srchid=190856831459345835045&srchindex=2&srchtotal=17&trk=vsrp_people_res_name&trkInfo=VSRPsearchId%3A190856831459345835045%2CVSRPtargetId%3A126864784%2CVSRPcmpt%3Aprimary%2CVSRPnm%3Atrue%2CauthType%3ANAME_SEARCHJohn Khademihttps://www.linkedin.com/in/john-khademi-5947581b?authType=NAME_SEARCH&authToken=7_2A&locale=en_US&srchid=190856831459346921556&srchindex=1&srchtotal=1&trk=vsrp_people_res_name&trkInfo=VSRPsearchId%3A190856831459346921556%2CVSRPtargetId%3A70537792%2CVSRPcmpt%3Aprimary%2CVSRPnm%3Atrue%2CauthType%3ANAME_SEARCH

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 09:58:21 pm
content: I'm not sure if it's just a problem with the Indiegogo website, but the link to the project is no longer working. It seems to be gone.Also, when I do a search from the pain page of IGG for Triton, Gills or such, nothing shows up.Temporary glitch? Did IGG pull it? The Triton shysters claimed a new video was coming today - wonder what happened.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 10:53:11 pm
content: To me it looks like it got pulled for a review or something..... but dunno

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 11:04:17 pm
content: DiscussEdit - basically scam from the original IGG description campaign... see next page

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 11:19:05 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 11:04:17 pmBS video, never moves, does not move his head so the cheeks would be visible. My guess he has a gas cylinder behind his back and a thin tube across his cheek.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 11:24:15 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 23, 2016, 04:51:09 amAll their money got pulled/reset - new campaign. New one states further down that it has LO2 tanks.Click here to see IGG update(link for space reasons)

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 11:39:01 pm
content: Someone should tell NASA they've figured out room temperature LOX storage. This will revolutionize space flight.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 11:46:17 pm
content: Quote from: Nerull on April 01, 2016, 11:39:01 pmEven if they could, good luck shipping small cylinders of LOX at a reasonable price given it's hazardous.So now they say the "gills" are just heat exchangers (and possibly CO2 scrubbers or something but they dont say that).They dont actually say, as far as I can tell, that they will be shipping containers with the LOX actually in them, just that the containers can be used once and maybe multi-use in the future.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 02:05:02 am
content: People are subscribing to this new campaign!This idea is still nuts. Lets say they can somehow make a non-refrigerated liquid oxygen tank. If it is possible, it will be very expensive, but lets go with it. If live in the US and want to take your tiny Triton "Rebreather" on a holiday to Hawaii, you will have to leave the tanks behind. You cannot take liquid oxygen on a plane.How are they actually going to supply these cylinders safely? Set up an international chain of distributors with shipping by boat?Then there is still the batteries. If they are banking on the experimental technology I mentioned from 2013 (the "1000 times faster charge and 30 times smaller" battery), that doesn't sound possible. In 2013, the capacity was 1/10th the current Lithium battery capacity at best and it would be expensive. So they will probably be back to using off-the-shelf Lithium Ion batteries.About the new video, who knows what that was. A trained diver can spend many minutes underwater particularly if there is no activity. You can make bubbles with a carbon dioxide cylinder.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 03:02:34 am
content: As i said ealier, supplying oxygen is not the hard part, it's ventilating the lungs which requires a fairly large volume of mostly an inert gas to both deliver the oxygen and allow removal of CO2. Without that large volume of gas, you cannot inflate the lungs and therefore cannot achieve the required surface area at the level of the alveoli needed to allow the necessry gas exchange.These guys are peddling snake oil.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 04:11:38 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on April 02, 2016, 03:02:34 amIn diving, oxygen partial pressure is usually considered safe at around 1.4 ppo2 or below for non extended duration dive times (http://www.diverite.com/articles/oxygen-toxicity-signs-and-symptoms/http://www.nitrox.com/nitrox-basics-oxygen-management-part-3.htmlhttp://precisiondiving.net/blog/how-to-calculate-partial-pressure-of-oxygen/). At 15ft and 100% o2 the ppo2 is around 1.45 for seawater and less for fresh water.LOX has an expansion ratio of 1:861 at atmospheric pressure. Assume 0.25L total LOX, then 210L of o2 at 1atm. Assume breathing rate of 15 breath per minute, and a non resting tidal volume of 1 liter = 15L per minute. 210LPM/15L = ~14 minutes breathing time.I could be totally wrong because I know nothing about it, so if am please correct me if you see something wrong

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 05:11:33 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 02, 2016, 04:11:38 amTriton are claiming in the Indiegogo answers that the liquid 02cylinders can be used twice - specifically 2 x 45 minutes. We do not know if there is one or two cylinders used at a time.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 05:19:39 am
content: Quote from: amspire on April 02, 2016, 05:11:33 amI calculated for non-resting. Resting tidal volume and breaths per min goes way down (like .5L and 12 bpm) so that's actually still pretty close I think... resting for average person ~35 minutes if things are correct. Longer for smaller person.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 05:52:33 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 11:24:15 pmAll of the new campaign still implies it gets the oxygen from the water.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 05:55:55 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 02, 2016, 04:11:38 amI know nothing about LOX, but if what you are saying is that 0.25 l of LOX can expand to 210 l of 100% O2 gas at 1atm, that still does not help. In what chamber does that expansion occur? Also, 100% O2 is not a viable gas for respiration (except in highly specialized situations with tight control of pressures and close monitoring).

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 05:57:16 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 02, 2016, 05:52:33 amYeah so weird. The Lo2 part is buried in the middle of all the bs that caused the campaign to reset in the first place.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 06:03:45 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on April 02, 2016, 05:55:55 amTheir new campaign says the membrane is used as a heat exchange for the lo2 (phase change). Im guessing the pump or whatever is for metering, but have no idea. It's possible to use an orifice if you have the heat exchange rate approximately correct.The sites I was reading, if i'm understating them correctly, say you can breath 100% o2 at sea level (1.0 ppo2) for 12-16 hours before people start having problems with the toxic effects. Apparently diving standard is 1.4 ppo2 for regular usage and 1.6 for special or emergency usage. The allowable time decreases.http://www.diverite.com/articles/oxygen-toxicity-signs-and-symptoms/http://www.nitrox.com/nitrox-basics-oxygen-management-part-3.htmlhttp://precisiondiving.net/blog/how-to-calculate-partial-pressure-of-oxygen/

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 06:26:35 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 02, 2016, 06:03:45 amThe volume required is not going to be a constant. It will vary between individuals and depending in activity.QuoteIt's true that under very specialized circunstances you can get away with breathing 100% O2 for short periods but it requires pretty tightly controlled parameters for pressure, etc to avoid toxicity. (I added that caveat to my post above). Higher pressures as needed to inflate the lungs underwater = more toxicity. I'm no expert on dive medicine but I believe Navy Seal rebreathers use high O2 concentrations. I'm sure if it was possible to use such a James Bond like miniature device as this they would be doing that..Even if they could solve the technical issues of using LOX at normal temperatures and then using it to provide the correct on demand volume of gas required for ventilation ( very unlikely IMO), do they really think they're going to get away selling a device that lets someone mess around breathing 100% O2 underwater?

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 06:50:45 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on April 02, 2016, 06:26:35 amTrue, if they have no metering the dive time would go way down and they would have a problem. However, they've said there s a pump in the device, I think it's for metering but don't know. Also their "demo" videos gives the impression of metering.Quote from: mtdoc on April 02, 2016, 06:26:35 amI accounted for the change of partial pressure (for 15 feet depth) in the calculations using the diving guidelines. It came out to 1.45 ppo2, which is still the allowable range.The military units are much larger because they have mechanisms to maintain the allowable partial pressure across varying dive depths and probably other gas mixing stuff to prevent decompression problems. Their closed loop, so they have to scrub the co2 as well.Quote from: mtdoc on April 02, 2016, 06:26:35 amI dont have confidence in them at all. There are other LOX scuba equipment on the market and history (soviet), so it's not impossible to do..... but it's these guys no.Quote from: mtdoc on April 02, 2016, 06:26:35 amIve been thinking about this as well. The liabilities are huge.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 07:09:22 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 02, 2016, 06:50:45 amThey have to be able to sell it first, and I do not know how they are going to even distribute it.They cannot mail liquid O2.Perhaps everyone has to go to Sweden to collect it in person? Or it could be the Triton they say they will deliver will not include any O2.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 07:28:16 am
content: Quote from: amspire on April 02, 2016, 07:09:22 amAs far as I can tell, they dont actually say that they will be shipping containers with the LOX actually in them, just that the containers can be used once and maybe multi-use in the future....

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 09:54:23 am
content: You gotta wonder whether it ever used liquid oxygen to begin with, or whether it did try the ridiculous concept of getting it from the water (as their campaignstillimplies) and once they got called out, they got the last minute idea to use it not thinking through the obvious ridiculousness with the shipping restrictions.Either way

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 04:26:09 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 02, 2016, 09:54:23 amOr since they got called out on their first lie, they came up with a new lie just to keep the ball rolling for a while....

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 05:08:55 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on April 02, 2016, 04:26:09 pmThis is my vote

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 05:24:22 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on April 02, 2016, 05:08:55 pmWhat crazy is they gotcaughtwith a near $1 million lie the first time around.... And yet Indiegogo still allows them on the platform.... even with basically the same promo garbage.

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 05:25:32 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 02, 2016, 06:50:45 amIt might be possible to build a device using LOX, but that device wouldn't use shippable prefilled cylinders. You would have to fill on site, from a proper cryogenic storage system. Liquid oxygen is incredibly dangerous, and not easily available to your average consumer. The easiest way to get it is to accidentally condense it when working with LN2, which can lead to spontaneous fires/explosions.There was a team working on an amateur-built LOX-rubber hybrid rocket motor. They had issues initially with the LOX spontaneously combusting when contacting residual organics in their fill system, though they clued up and got oxygen-safe parts pretty quickly.This isn't the sort of thing you're going to haul down to your local gas station to fill like you would a propane tank.I wonder if its possible they are using some other liquid, and depending on a chemical reaction to produce O2. Chemical oxygen generators are pretty old tech, and they get very hot, possibly requiring a heat exchanger. If you remember the big ValueJet crash in 1996, that was caused by an accidental initiation of an improperly stored oxygen generator, which started a fire (and then fed it with oxygen). Maybe the whole heat exchanger thing is more BS, to explain away why it gets hot without revealing how it works.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 07:04:30 pm
content: Quote from: Nerull on April 02, 2016, 05:25:32 pmlox is definitely dangerous....it's 100% oxidizer and continuously vents....Quote from: Nerull on April 02, 2016, 05:25:32 pmThis is actually totally possible. In there campaign video they say "a connector that has a special compound on the inside, that blends the oxygen with the compound by chemical way". That does sound like some sort of chem generator, catalyst, reactor. (I previously thought it had something do with their "gill" concept as catalysts or something to the membrane contactor, co2 scrubber etc). They say 'liquid oxygen' in there campaign (no quotes), but in there update feed they say "liquid oxygen" (withthe quotes). So if it's not really true liquid oxygen, what else could it be?One possibility is liquid nitrous oxide. That is shippable and storable at room temp. Has an expansion ratio of over 600. Can be separated into 66% N2 and 33% O2 via a catalyst (which is pretty close to ideal). Membrane could handle liquid to gas conversion.......Problem is.... it's patentedhttp://www.google.ch/patents/US20020056451

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2016, 11:10:43 pm
content: Yeah but, how much breathable air can you really get out of small canister like that? Consider those small canisters of NiOx used in whip cream dispensers. *They'll give you two, maybe three complete lung inhales per canister. Now, I know this is liquid NiOx we're talking about, but I can't imagine it beingthatmuch more efficient.*I mean, so I've been told...I would never do Whipits...Drugs are bad, stay in school kids.

author: MadTux
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 12:23:48 am
content: You could use chemical oxygen generators, like catalytic decomposition of hydrogen peroxide or sodium peroxide:2 H2O2=MnO2=> 2H2O + O2Or use pyrotechnic oxygen candles, like those used on ISS. Best oxygen/weight ratio apart from LOX, they are mostly lithium perchlorate mixed with a little fuel, so that it burns hot enough to decompose the lithium perchlorate into lithium chloride and oxygen :2 LiClO4=heat=> 2LiCl + 4O2But all this is very expensive, dangerous and a potential fire hazard. So just as inpractical for common use as the LOX variant.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 12:29:50 am
content: Quote from: timb on April 02, 2016, 11:10:43 pmCalculated that earlier, but for LO2. LNO2 has a bit less expansion, but it would still be usable (75% of lo2). The bigger thing is that the catalyzer would have to be 100% efficient, otherwise the person would be breathing some No2Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 02, 2016, 04:11:38 am

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 12:33:57 am
content: I gather that Liquid 02doesn't exist above -118 deg C. If you charge a cylinder with liquid oxygen at -200 deg C and let the temperature rise to room temperature, it will be a supercritical fluid - apparently that is the state when there is no difference between a gaseous state and a fluid state, but it is definitely not a liquid.I think with practical pressures, you can only have compressed gaseous oxygen. I would hate to think what pressures you would get in the cylinders from supercritical oxygen in the boot of a car on a really hot sunny day.If by "Liquid Oxygen", they just use liquid oxygen to partially fill a cylinder, and then let it warm up to a compressed gas state, then to ship by air, you need an expensive ATA-300 Category 1 case to ship the cylinders. This is a legal requirement particularly in the US.Unless, of course, you are scuba diving on the moon Titan where the temperatures are perfect for bottled liquid oxygen and they have all those great methane lakes. The Triton is the perfect device for recreational diving on Titan.One of the many things that really do not make sense is that if this product was close to production, they would have done thousand of hours of testing. They would have had no end of full uninterrupted 45 minute video clips of test divers swimming around underwater. They could show someone inserting the cylinders, and then doing a full dive. Instead, they had to actually rent a pool just to do the most recent clip where a diver managed to stay underwater for 7 minutes (something like that) with no activity. There is nothing to indicate that any functioning prototype exists.All they have proven is that they have made an object that resembles the CAD renders and it can make nice bubbles.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 12:42:16 am
content: Quote from: amspire on April 03, 2016, 12:33:57 amI think the project is technically possible but practically impossible for general consumers. LNO2 might be more practical, but it's patented. I also do think it's within their technical, and probably business, abilities. Then liabilities...good luckOn the video, there is a newer one. It is really bizarre how it was setup and filmed imo.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 01:04:37 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 03, 2016, 12:42:16 amHe actually stayed underwater for 12 minutes - I thought it was less, but I never watched the whole thing. They didn't show him surfacing, so we never saw if he had to gasp for air or not. Since we also didn't see him dive, we do not know if he used hyperventilating before the dive. The record time for holding breath underwater is 22 minutes.Why didn't he stay underwater for 45 minutes? With no activity, he could probably stay underwater for twice that - if the Triton was working.I read about the LNO2and it would be extremely difficult to make something so small. The splitting of the NO happens between 400degC and 900degC. You can use a catalyst to get the reaction starting at 150 degC but the temperature rises once the reaction starts. There are dangerous and corrosive by-products that need to be converted with a platinum catalyst. What happens if the membrane ruptures and you start breathing pure nitrous oxide? What happens if the pump fails and you start sucking in air at 400 deg C? What happens if you take this thing out of the water while it is on?They would be asking recreational users to swim around with an experimental high temperature chemical factory in their mouths.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 01:12:30 am
content: Quote from: amspire on April 03, 2016, 01:04:37 amI also don't like the angle of the shot, and the fact he's wearing a full mask. I think it would be possible to run a line from behind the head, next to the strap and into the mask. Then inhale through nose. Don't know though.Also he seems uncomfortable to me, especially towards the end.Quote from: amspire on April 03, 2016, 01:04:37 amI agree it's problematic but I dont think impossible. If I read the patent correctly the patent says the size of the reactor is 1in, but everything else is definitely not in favor. Apparently it generates enough heat, the patent covers heating of the dive suit. The other thing is that the patent speaks of hallow fiber membrane, which is what Triton says it has as well....edited

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 01:17:34 am
content: Had another look at the video. Can anyone actually see his chest moving at all? Just try breathing without moving your chest noticeably. It is not easy.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 01:40:14 am
content: Quote from: amspire on April 03, 2016, 01:17:34 amI can't.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 01:52:02 am
content: The breathing rate is off I think too. Lower end for resting on land is 12bpm, resting diver is typically 16bpm,.. he's doing like 6-7 bpm. The volume seems really excessive too

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 04:30:36 am
content: I am not sure if someone has mentioned it already (probably) but there are already companies making small tanks of compressed air for diving use:http://spareair.com/So even IF the Triton product was technically possible (it isn't), then what purpose does it have to exist? LOx is strictly controlled and dangerous, and the system Triton proposes uses disposable bottles anyway - so what advantage does it have over existing air systems? Triton's proposal is more dangerous, MUCH more complex and would have to be dramatically more expensive. Why would anyone ever entertain the idea of using any sort of chemicals or LOx or anything of the sort, when you can just take existing air and compress that and do away with the complexity and cost of all the crap Triton is claiming?As far as the video goes, the fact that the guy doesn't move is highly suspicious. If the system worked as they say, you would demonstrate it working and be swimming around underwater. Even from a boredom standpoint, who wants to just sit there? The only reason he would is because there is another reason - such as a concealed tank. It's difficult but not impossible to breathe at that depth using lungs, so perhaps he has a small clear tube taped to the side of his face - you'd never notice it from the video.One other thing about the video - I am sure nobody believes the device on the guy's face is using LOx and a "gill" type system to some how generate air for the guy. That means the video was made and is shown in furtherance of fraud. They are outright deceiving people using a falsified video to show something that isn't true. The legal term is "Fraud by Deception" in the USA and it's a criminal act. The government and law enforcement really need to step in on these scams and at least show they are taking an interest. These guys have over $200k and it will likely go much higher if IGG does nothing to stop it.

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 04:36:39 am
content: Quote from: amspire on April 03, 2016, 12:33:57 amThese are liquid nitrogen tanks. They're vacuum insulated cryogenic storage tanks, similar to those used to store liquid oxygen. The contents are kept cold through constant vaporization, and that gas must be vented so that pressure doesn't climb too high.You may notice that one of the tanks looks a bit odd. Someone decided to fix a defective vent by welding it shut. Someone else had previously decided to fix a failed pressure burst disk by welding it shut. Over a long weekend pressure built up in the tank until it launched itself through a concrete floor and cracked a structural beam in the floor above, then blew out all the walls of the room above.You really don't want to let cryogenic liquids warm up in a sealed vessel....

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 05:25:59 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 03, 2016, 04:30:36 amProblem is the breathing time. Even the large one of those cylinders has something like 5-6 minute and maybe 10 if youre not movingI do think LO2 is possible to do and LNO2 is plausible to do. LNO2 is much more complicated and has safety problems amspire mentioned, but would be more convenient for a consumer since the LNO2 can be shipped. The LO2 I don't think is technically that difficult to do, but LO2 transport and handling is much more dangerous/difficult. LO2 actually doesn't have much regulation for individuals from what I can tell, other than transport.I don't know what to make of the video but highly suspicious of it. They are in Sweden, so I wonder what their laws are like there.I am really surprised the campaign came back after the first one ended. The original was pretty deceptive, IGG should have banned them but hasn't for some reason $^).......

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 05:31:22 am
content: Quote from: Nerull on April 03, 2016, 04:36:39 amThis is why you can't reasonably ship it to people. They have to be transported with venting. Even if it could last through transport and not end-up with an empty bottle, LO2 is 100% pure oxidizer and vents continuously in containers, so transporting is regulated.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 06:18:49 am
content: It is very simple. Liquid Oxygen does not exist above -118 degrees C, so it is not possible for Triton to use Liquid Oxygen. They cannot be using cryogenic containers, because they are only useful when the contents are at cryogenic temperatures.If Triton are again being misleading to "protect their patent applications", then they probably should restart their fundraising for a third time. Better still, wait until there is a product.There is still no sign of an actually working prototype. The latest video is not at all convincing, and the thing in the diver's mouth could be a couple of bits of black poly irrigation tubing stuck into a block of black plasticine for all I can see.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 07:08:18 am
content: Quote from: amspire on April 03, 2016, 06:18:49 amYou can certainly keep lo2 in a container, but there will be a boil-off rate depending on pressure and how well the container is insulated.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 08:31:16 am
content: On the campaign page: "portable, convenient for travel"Yes, but with these canisters, your luggage won't fly with you

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 12:22:26 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 03, 2016, 12:42:16 amYes, very controlled. You don't see him move position, or enter the water, or exit the water.All the hallmarks of a staged event rather than a proper demo, totally the opposite to what you want if you wanted to prove it to the skeptics.The prestidigitation is strong in this one.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 12:31:00 pm
content: Comments on the video are moderated too.No negative comments at all, and you would expect that based on the very high ratio of thumbs down.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 12:41:37 pm
content: This is one of those days where I think that crowd funding platforms are digging their own hole.High profile campaigns are debunked by people that are domain experts within hours. In particular the 'Projects we Love' and 'Editor's Choice' ones.Crowd funding is great. But if the platforms keep on avoiding due diligence - and pointing to the disclaimers and terms of condition- we're heading to a meltdown.If you make that much money on your platform, get experts aligned that can perform that bullshit check.Genuine good projects will not be able to get funded because people are about to get put down by the jokers.And I think that the IndieGoGo and KickStarter staff are not up to the task.Yes, they're up to the task of asking their share.No, They're not up to the task of filtering out the blatant impossible projects.That's not enough, if crowdfunding is your core business.

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 12:55:58 pm
content: Quote from: amspire on April 03, 2016, 06:18:49 amWhere is the problem, you can store it as superheated vapor, what O2 at 1atm / 20deg C is, or supercritical fluid.Here you can buy somehttp://www.ebay.com/bhp/oxygen-tankThey are "normally" filled with up to 200 bar = supercritical fluid.However I would not try to breath pure O2!Phase diagram of oxygen in the p-T space.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 01:15:30 pm
content: Supercritical O2is not the same as Liquid O2. Triton say they are using Liquid O2.A cylinder of compressed supercritical O2will have something like 1/5th the capacity as the same volume of liquid O2. Oxygen has no liquid state above the critical point at -118 deg C.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 01:36:58 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 03, 2016, 12:31:00 pmYes it is, I can see some of what they deleted through google notifications because I commented before.

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 02:43:55 pm
content: Quote from: Kalidor on April 03, 2016, 12:55:58 pmThose are GOX tanks, not LOX tanks. They contain no liquid, and can hold far less. You can already buy small breathing gas cylinders, there would be precisely nothing new there. But they aren't going to last 45 minutes.

author: altaic
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 05:16:24 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 03, 2016, 01:52:02 amQuote from: EEVblog on April 03, 2016, 12:22:26 pmFree divers are trained to control their metabolism and breathing. In the static apnea discipline, where the diver basically meditates near the surface in a pool, people have lasted for over ten minutes with no air. Pretty sure that's what's happening here as far as lasting for a long time on a very small O2 supply. Dodgy marketing indeed.Re. O2 at 20C, yeah it's supercritical. Thought gaseous O2 was dangerous? Hah, there's no way in hell anybody would carry supercritical oxygen around, let alone ship it, for recreation. Of course, that's unless they've come up with a better storage method, a la forcing hydrogen into a metal matrix to control expansion. Unfortunately, O2 and metal don't really get along...

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 10:41:55 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 03, 2016, 05:25:59 amYes, the breathing time of the spare air units is less, however, the Triton system is strapped to your face, whereas a tank doesn't need to be. The weight of the tank is a non-issue because in water, you don't feel the weight... and size isn't an issue unless you're in tight places, which would be absolutely insanity with a system like Triton (even if it worked). So what is the benefit of Triton over a compressed air system? With air, you can literally just connect it to your existing air tank and fill it. Around here, an 80-120 cu-ft tank costs $5 to fill, and there are lots of places to choose from anywhere that you might want to go diving.For LO2... how would they get around the storage/hazard issue? Maybe I am wrong but it seems that is a pretty extreme use case for LO2... being in the sun, being bounced around on a boat, being in water. That seems to be pretty huge temperature swings and LO2 is problematic (at best) to store/transport even in much tighter controlled conditions, no? As for LNO2, you can already get your air tanks filled with "Nitrox" for diving... so that goes back to me not really seeing what Triton's system supposedly brings to the table? They talk about some sort of chemical oxygen generation and liquid oxygen "working in conjunction with gills" (whatever that means) - so at best it's quite a complicated setup compared to just taking a tank that just needs a regulator and that's it.So even if it could work, the only benefit they are offering is a smaller size, but at (significantly) higher cost and less reliability and much more dangerous. I just can't understand the backers mindset.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 10:50:34 pm
content: Quote from: jancumps on April 03, 2016, 12:41:37 pmSide note: I read an article somewhere, I believe it was recent news, that Kickstarter was hiring an in-house "project feasibility guru", whose job was to assess whether a project was a scam or based on junk science or claims.I believe it was in response to a Kickstarter project for "washing machine balls", which was an old scam from decades who where plastic balls put into your washing machine were claimed to change the molecules of water and create hydrogen peroxide, eliminating the need for detergent.I read the comments and they were pathetically funny... dumb backers saying "I have been using these for a few weeks and I don't think they work. I have friends and coworkers saying I smell and when I tell them I wash clothes regularly, they ask if I am using detergent!".In this case, I can't see how IGG doesn't have liability. They were notified that the project was essentially a scam, and they clearly got in touch with Triton and told them they can't keep it up in the manner they did. So they've demonstrated an interest and effort in filtering out outright scams. However, it's a fact that LOx can't work if only due to it not existing above -118c, and surely IGG has seen this in the comments and been notified of it by users. Yet they continue to allow the project to continue.To me, that's tantamount to willful participation in the scam.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 12:23:35 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 03, 2016, 10:41:55 pmSuppose the thing somehow works... then buy in cost (I doubt someone could purchase a complete SCUBA setup for $299 with similar dive time), size, 'coolness factor'.Quote from: Corporate666 on April 03, 2016, 10:41:55 pmYouve probably seen people walking around with lo2, something like thisLo2 Portable Storage. This is a medical device with additional regulating components but has a similar storage volume they would need and has a storage time of 9 hours. Being a medical device, it costs $1,000 but the dewar inside of it probably costs a fraction of that (but I dont really know).Lo2, your always going to end up less than when you start (unless you somehow keep the temps way down with another cryo fluid or device), but you can get the boil off rate fairly low with good insulation and some pressure; you'd have to bring more than you're going to use and you'd probably have to use it somewhat quickly but it can be done.Actually getting the lo2 is a whole other problem and I doubt you could do it at a reasonable cost except for local pickup from supply houses.Quote from: Corporate666 on April 03, 2016, 10:41:55 pmSupposed the lno2 system actually works (and supposed it is what their system is) at the price and form-factor they're advertising. Then for the LNO2 system it would have some pretty major advantages for a consumer. Cost is the big one, compactness, coolness, shippable consumables... are all factors generally important to consumer.Also..why not just make a more advanced snorkel? Were talking 15ft.. Float on top of water, possibly pump/compressor, some valves, run a line or two down.....swim for hours or more... and probably could be done for $299.

author: altaic
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 01:31:53 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 04, 2016, 12:23:35 amThose have existed for a long time-- at least since the 80s. Basically an inner tube with a dive flag sticking up, a compressor, and a long hose with a regulator attached. They used to be pretty huge, with a gas powered compressor and such, but they're probably small and electric now. Maybe even solar powered. *shrug* Definitely not the James Bond kind of awesome this company is trying to claim.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 02:15:49 am
content: Quote from: altaic on April 04, 2016, 01:31:53 amI see them. They do look dorky but much more functional I think. Someone could probably do a smaller version and get the price down... right now in the thousands

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 10:37:47 am
content: ThunderfOOt to the rescue!But his video is out of date the moment it was posted. Needs another one to keep up with the new liquid oxygen BS

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 11:23:58 am
content: This scheme is very clever: never one single customer complaint or return.The customer drowned at the first tryout.

author: Khendrask
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 02:17:03 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 03, 2016, 10:50:34 pmIGG has absolutely no reason to vet any of these projects, even if they KNOW they are 100% scams. As long as contributions pour in, IGG takes their cut. That is why IGG has the "Flexible funding" model, where the campaigner gets the cash whether or not the campaign is "Successful". IGG can only take their cut, if they disburse funds. Once that happens, it is between the backer and the campaigner.Even if you bring lawsuits, IGG is absolved from any and all wrongdoing. They are the ones that are really the scammers. That is why IGG takes (Even begs for) projects that KS removes; they are living off of PT Barnums "One A Minute" and laughing all the way to the bank.KS at least tries to prevent outright fraud, but even so, people need to really think about what they are considering backing. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 02:41:10 pm
content: If IGG keeps this up no-one will take any of their cases serious anymore: ergo out of business.It is in their own best interest to at least pretend to care

author: meeder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 05:07:59 pm
content: They gave up and refunded everybody:https://gearjunkie.com/refunded-triton-artificial-gills-campaign-update

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 07:03:35 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 03, 2016, 10:41:55 pmNote that nitrox ix diving terminology for a standard breathing mix of nitrogen and oxygen gasses, which is a very different thing than nitrous oxide.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 07:14:33 pm
content: additionally, I think breathing time in open loop with nitrox mix at 15 feet is approximately the same as 100% o2

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 07:47:11 pm
content: Quote from: meeder on April 04, 2016, 05:07:59 pmNope, they just changed their tune. They got called out on their first scam, canceled the campaign, and started a new, equally ridiculous one in its place.

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2016, 12:28:15 am
content: Already at $260,000.

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2016, 08:08:56 am
content: Whatever it is, Gills, Re-breather, LOx, or an air tank it's allIn the last video he sits in a pool for 12 min 45 sec and breaths96times!! (/watch?v=QrT_KtdGFa8)Now look how much bigger spare air ishttp://spareair.com/product/models.htmland in the specs "Surface Breaths:57based on 1.6L per breath, max pressure 200 bar"The only cool thing in this video is the first song.57 breaths339 breaths

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 05, 2016, 08:42:33 am
content: I spot some parallels to uBeam:QuoteThat will be make for some interesting job interviews I suspect!"So, you haven't done any engineering yet and you expect me to engineer a regulator to take liquid oxygen to breathable pressure in a 10cm^3 volume, ready for manufacture one month from now?"

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 05, 2016, 10:07:10 am
content: Quote from: janekm on April 05, 2016, 08:42:33 amTranslation: We haven't actually designed this thing yet, but we are pretty confident it will work, because, well, people gave us money for it.

author: Khendrask
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2016, 10:58:18 am
content: They aren't accepting low donations now on the "New" campaign. Donate a dollar, and IGG refunds it in about a minute. Long enough time to post a comment though

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2016, 12:33:31 pm
content: Quote from: Khendrask on April 05, 2016, 10:58:18 amJust the fact that the latest comment is 11h old shows that all comment sections (IGG + YT) are - say "moderated".They accepted my $1 until I wrote a comment, refunded comment deleted.Maybe I make a $1000 donation and write a comment and then cancel it before the campaign ends. You can do that on your admin page.To see if your comment was deleted you have to logoff from IGG, same for YT.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2016, 12:42:48 pm
content: Quote from: altaic on April 04, 2016, 01:31:53 amI have one. You *could* solar power it, but the average consumption is still in the order of 200w (roughly 16A @ 12v). Still, nicer than a 3hp Honda.

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2016, 04:51:18 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 04, 2016, 12:23:35 amThose are oxygen concentrators, not LO2 dewars, even the headline on the page is "Oxygen Concentrators" They use dual pressure swing adsorption canisters, one to soak up nitrogen leaving oxygen rich air for the patient while the other canister regenerates, venting the nitrogen-rich stream. Also useful for generating dry nitrogen for desiccator cabinets, high power air dielectric coax cables, or Hakkos swanky nitrogen shielded soldering ironhttp://www.hakko.com/english/n2system/connection-method.htmlI believe even a hot N2 reflow system is available too.So old ones could potentially be usable to hobbiests.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2016, 05:06:05 am
content: Quote from: ConKbot on April 06, 2016, 04:51:18 amThe link is the portable canister for an oxygen concentration system, it is not the concentrator itself. Internally it has to have a dewar or highly insulated canister to hold the lox.Quote from: ConKbot on April 06, 2016, 04:51:18 amDidn't know this. I need a desiccator cabinet.... i have to look into it. Thanks

author: Khendrask
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2016, 11:10:33 am
content: Quote from: Kalidor on April 05, 2016, 12:33:31 pmI see that, If I log off, the comment vanishes. If I log back in, it shows up again, but I assume only for me.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2016, 12:22:26 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 06, 2016, 05:06:05 amI'm pretty sure there is no LO2 in these things. Otherwise it would be pretty dangerous for patients to travel with them in planes and such.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2016, 12:28:59 pm
content: QuoteAs to planes - you just don't travel by plane if you need to use one of those.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2016, 03:36:30 pm
content: Quote from: ConKbot on April 06, 2016, 04:51:18 amThere is already quite a bit of demand for used medical oxygen concentrators from people who use them for torch setups, e.g. for glass work.

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2016, 04:03:37 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on April 06, 2016, 12:28:59 pmFor a moment I thought you were talking about the Triton, and was ready to post:Quote

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2016, 06:19:23 pm
content: What world are we living in...

author: stmdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 02:43:48 pm
content: Not that anyone would be surprised, but I did a bit of digging on the CEO (since I'm from Sweden as well).I was actually surprised to find one individual in Sweden with a matching name, age and looks.To call him an "entrepreneur" is probably stretching the definition well past the breaking-point though.He is associated with _1_ company, which is his own one-man company (special form of company in Sweden). The company was registered in January of 2014, and has never filed taxes, so there has been (presumably) no income in the company.That's it.. According to LinkedIn, he's been a sales-guy in all previous jobs to this one..

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2016, 08:03:19 pm
content: I guess that answers the question on whether they meant liquid oxygen as a euphemism for some form of chemical oxygen generation:Nope. LOX. They're nuts.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2016, 11:07:57 pm
content: Quote from: Nerull on April 10, 2016, 08:03:19 pmSaeed knows that currently LOX cannot be taken aboard a plane, butQuoteHe admits the LOX will not last long, so he is talking about a miniature dewar with continuous venting of excess gaseous O2All he has to do is to change the international airline safety regulations to allow items to be shipped that are venting uncontrolled amounts of pure oxygen into a cargo hold. And he will have no problem getting the international laws changed by December!Probably for his next campaign, he will work on getting the laws of gravity changed.And he says that if you are unable to get LOX at your destination, he will refund all your money and you can keep the Triton for free!When asked about the breathing mixture, he seemed to confirm it was pure oxygen.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2016, 11:59:23 pm
content: Looked up some data from Dewar manufactures and typical liquid oxygen evaporation rates were 0.2 to 0.8 litres a day. The evaporation and release of the oxygen is essential to keep the remaining LOX cold enough to be liquid.A miniature dewar would have a very small insulating air/vacuum gap between the walls, so how long could it hold any LOX? Could it manage an hour? It would solve all the shipping problems - by the time the miniature LOX dewar reaches an airport for shipping, it is almost certainly empty.That miniature dewar has to contain the double stainless steel walls, and a phase separator to separate the gaseous oxygen from the LOX. To let the LOX get as high as -118 degC to minimize the evaporation rate, it has to allow for pressures of 50 atmospheres, so that would mean the inner wall would be a pressure vessel with strong walls. How much room is left for the LOX?

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 01:10:32 am
content: It this were real, you would ship the dewars empty, and get a medical oxygen supplier to fill them at the destination.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 01:32:28 am
content: Quote from: edavid on April 11, 2016, 01:10:32 amThis is the only cost effective way to get the lo2 I think... but kinda doubt a med supply house will fill a non-medical canister for some random person walking in. I tried several med supply places for syringe bodies, without the needles, and couldn't get them.... and those have zippo regulations.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 01:47:03 am
content: Also Ill mention, I did a quick hand calculation. I have to double check. But I think there maybe problem with evaporating the lo2 at a sufficient rate since you need thermal transfer to do it. I think it may freeze up the device or water in contact, unless you provide some method for forced convection... especially since most of the cylinder will be supposedly insulated.

author: TassiloH
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 02:24:09 am
content: What is the problem with LO2 supply? To make 1kg of LO2 from room temp gas (a temp difference of 25 --183 = 207K) one needs 0.91 kJ/(kg*K) * 1kg * 207K = 188 kJ for the specific heat plus 214 kJ for the latent heat, so roughly 400kJ = 400000 Ws.For a steal of about 16000 US$ one can buy a cryocooler that supplies about 100W cooling power at this temperature (and consumes about 3kW of electricity to do it). So it takes only 400000 Ws/100W = 4000 s. Assuming that half the power is lost due to imperfect insulation, one can make 1kg of LO2 in 3h. Problem solved

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 03:59:25 am
content: Either this Saeed guy has absolutely no experience with cryogenic liquified gases, or he is depending on his marks having none.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 04:09:30 am
content: Thunderf00t is working on an updated video to demolish the new liquid oxygen thing

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 04:43:07 am
content: I was going to leave this, but I just noticed a brand new campaign:This is fantastic news for the people of Sydney. We can not get our Tritons locally now!

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 05:00:00 am
content: Quote from: amspire on April 11, 2016, 04:43:07 amSo does IGG not check anything at all or something?

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 05:11:05 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 11, 2016, 05:00:00 amIt is against their rules, but so is starting a campaign that is technically impossible.

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 07:20:38 am
content: Quote from: amspire on April 11, 2016, 05:11:05 amIt's not the same guy, someone that calls himself Bassam Meraby copy pasted the campaign bit by bit. fraud^2https://igg.me/at/nE9NBTSWkGI/x/10280792

author: Khendrask
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 12:45:56 pm
content: There was a third campaign too, (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton--5#/) that IGG actually did shut down... Or at least it is "Under Review by the Safety and Trust Team"... /laugh.For anyone really interested in this mess, on of the reddit folk wrote a bot to tweet every time a negative Triton post was deleted from the campaign board.You can find it here:https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/4e0zra/i_just_made_a_bot_that_tweets_the_comments/

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 01:44:57 pm
content: Quote from: Kalidor on April 11, 2016, 07:20:38 amI had my uCurrent Kickstarter campaign copied on IGG, it happens all the time.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 02:22:48 pm
content: And it even has backers tooWhile we're on the humor topic, why not a guaranteed loss instead of a guaranteed loss but with no hope-you-need-to-force-yourself-to-get?https://igg.me/at/DONOTUSEMay or may not take inspiration from the topic at hand...

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2016, 01:59:06 am
content: While we're on the subject of shipping LOX to consumers without cryogenic liquid training:http://www.elcosh.org/document/1676/d000585/Liquid%2BOxygen%2BCylinder%2BExplosion.html?show_text=1

author: hayatepilot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2016, 06:34:07 am
content: Somebody made a debunk/scam alert campaign:https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton-world-s-last-artificial-gills-scam#/I hope that saves some people from throwing their money out of the window.

author: Khendrask
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2016, 10:56:59 am
content: It probably won't, but I applaud the effort (and tossed in a Euro as well).

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2016, 12:56:50 pm
content: 2nd from me. Can't wait to get my nothing!

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2016, 02:47:20 pm
content: Quote from: Khendrask on April 11, 2016, 12:45:56 pmand here are the tweetshttps://twitter.com/TritonDeleted

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2016, 06:05:02 pm
content: That bot is genius!

author: Khendrask
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2016, 10:04:28 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on April 12, 2016, 12:56:50 pmWait, did you ask for two nothings?I feel cheated already!

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2016, 03:56:43 pm
content: Quote from: Khendrask on April 13, 2016, 10:04:28 amYep and he's offering me the 2nd one! But then he bought one from me again, so don't be jealous

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2016, 04:19:51 pm
content: Aww damn, just got a refund, his campaign has been closed by IGG it seems...Ironic how they'll close "safe" campaigns for being copies, but leave obvious scams untouched

author: Khendrask
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2016, 04:50:06 pm
content: Not to worry, it is back:https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton-world-s-last-artificial-gills-scam/x/13639189#/Just without the "Patented" graphic.And txt29 says he had over 2200 views before it was pulled, then restored.

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2016, 10:38:24 am
content: The TriChickenhttps://youtu.be/lXv_AohVUcQ..not only Triton can fake underwater videos, jump to 1:15 to see how they did it.

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2016, 11:00:25 am
content: Indigogo blocked them again, they cannot delete comments and the perk section is down.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 12:23:50 am
content: Triton are saying that they are working to meet the DOT 49 standards for the shipping of Liquid Oxygen, so I took a look. As well as the outright "forbidden" status for passenger and cargo plane transport, the DOT 49 173.102 requires that liquid oxygen cylinders meet the T22 special provision - that is a minimum wall thickness of 10mm.Considering that these cylinders will require a phase separator (since the specifications require that the vent is in contact with only the vapour phase - not the liquid phase), plus properly rated, tested and approved pressure release and venting valves, I would say there is not actually much room left for liquid oxygen.DOT 49 173.102 T22 also prohibits a bottom opening or vent on any LOX container, so I assume Triton will have to have a gimballed housing for the LOX cylinders that prevents the cylinders from ever being up-side-down.Others have already raised many of the other practical and legal problems in transporting LOX.12 days to go and Indiegogo are investigating. The investigation includes information they have received on both the dangerous nature of liquid O2and the impossibility of the product. It is hard to see how any investigation can come to any conclusion but to cancel the project.Even if Triton are a bunch of Nobel Prize worthy geniuses, and have some physics-shattering not-yet-patented technology, I cannot see how this campaign can be allowed until Triton are in a position to openly answer questions.I cannot imagine an up-side for Indiegogo for allowing the campaign to complete, unless they were stupid enough to sign a special deal with Triton to get the original money refunded for the first campaign. It is interesting that all the recent posts on the Triton campaign are negative - have Indiegogo stopped the deletion of posts?

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 01:05:33 am
content: I had a good laugh over this:QuoteAnd you don't even have to keep it in the freezer

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 01:36:38 am
content: Quote from: edavid on April 19, 2016, 01:05:33 amlol

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 02:05:47 am
content: Why are they even on IGG? They could get rich selling this to space technology companies. LOX is much more efficient than traditional storable propellants, but can't be stored on orbit for any real length of time so its only practical for launch, not for extended duration propulsion modules. They would be all over this magical cyrogenic storage tech.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 02:50:07 am
content: Because IGG is the only place where they can find people ignorant enough to buy into their non-existent and nowhere-close-to-arriving "tech"...Envoyé de mon SM-G930F en utilisant Tapatalk

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 03:29:38 am
content: Quote from: Khendrask on April 14, 2016, 04:50:06 pm

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 04:04:50 am
content: To be fair to Indiegogo, ......Sorry, I will try and keep a straight face.to be fair to Indiegogo, the particular Triton review they started on the 14th may include a list of questions to be sent to Triton that they will have to answer. Even if it seems obvious, there will be a procedure that has to be followed. Triton may not be the quickest responders when it comes to technical information, but I am hoping that the money will be locked until convincing answers come back from Triton. If there are no good answers, I am hoping Indiegogo will cancel the campaign. If they do block the campaign, they can decide to disallow any future campaigns from to people involved. It is possible that Indiegogo may have realised they have a problem, and they are taking their time to get their facts and arguments right.If Indiegogo accept answers like - "I cannot tell you - it's a secret", then there is not much hope for Indiegogo.By the way, here is a quote from Indiegogo concerning the review into Triton:"If the project doesn't follow our rules, we may remove the campaign".

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 04:56:35 am
content: Quote from: edavid on April 19, 2016, 01:05:33 amAnd they say they will be selling the canisters for $17.99You can't even buy a good steel vacuum hot drinks bottle for that! Empty!These people cannot be for real. This is some kind of practical joke or something.(of course the steel thermos bottle comes with a nice handy cup..... )

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 05:51:50 am
content: I'll just leave this old gem here...

author: Khendrask
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 11:19:26 am
content: If you check the comments section on the Triton campaign, it seems that the tri-team has gone dark for the past couple days.Lots of negative comments showing up, without being censored...And if IGG does ANYTHING, they will probably try to once again "restructure" the campaign to be something else that can sucker in cash. IGG has a serious stake in this, they don't want to actually lose anything that suckers are going to contribute to.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 11:11:01 pm
content: I don't understand, how did we get from tapping the oxygen dissolved in water to using mini portable oxygen tanks?Wasn't the idea of Triton to filter water for the oxygen dissolved in it? Did they back-track on this claim and go to some portable liquid oxygen tank concept?Obviously that opens up a whole other set of issues, not to mention that 100% oxygen is not breathable, it is toxic. There will need to be nitrogen in the mix or another gas. Even if they use liquid air, when a gas under pressure is evaporated, heat is drawn out of the liquid and surrounding fixtures to expand the gas.... causing a big drop in temperature.Either way, if they just take a simple scuba system and miniaturize it, you will just have a much shorter duration to be able to dive from. Scuba tanks normally have compressed air that has been filtered and dehumidified.... It is not liquid, just denser gas.Based on some online resources (examplehttp://scuba.about.com/od/scuba101/p/How-Long-Does-A-Scuba-Tank-Last.htm), a regular 80 cubic ft scuba tank will last about 45-60 minutes on an average dive within safe limits. Now imagine taking 1/10th of that volume like something that will fit in the Triton.... we are talking 6 minutes worth of compressed air?Now with respect to Dewer flasks (insulated cryogenic bottles), tanks, liquid versus compressed, cooled versus room temperature.... Triton is basically just blowing more smoke up everyone's ARSE at this point.I don't think they know crap all about what they are doing and inventing things as they go along. Extracting breathable air from whatever source they want to use is going to be a complicated task.You cannot simply strap some cryogenically cooled air on to your face while you swim around and expect to breathe the evaporation. You also can't just throw a couple of tanks with compressed air on your face unless you are doing what the scuba people are doing and limit yourself to 6 minutes of air for a tiny tank. Nevermind the fact that you have to fill them up each time, the cost is going to be astronomical.You are better off creating a floating "air supply" with a tube going down to your mouth and towing it behind you as you swim. That would pump air from the atmosphere down (like the old diving helmets).... Hey, I think I discovered a new IndieGogo campaign.... Time to start some renderings and making videos...

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 11:23:07 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on April 19, 2016, 05:51:50 amThis video..... Oh My GOD!Man, I'm too young.... I completely missed out on the "good old days".I can't believe that was a government training film. If I ever played a video like that today for safety training at work, they would "have my ass" (and not in a good way).

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2016, 01:48:49 am
content: Quote from: edy on April 19, 2016, 11:23:07 pmEven better one from Germany, you will understand it even if you don't speak German.https://youtu.be/9z77oztO6UQ

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 20, 2016, 03:16:09 am
content: The good old Klaus... one of my all time favorites!

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2016, 03:32:16 am
content: That's a real safety video??? ... Every scene was funnier than the previous until by the end I just couldn't believe it was real. Wow! I don't understand any German but that was one of the funniest things I've ever seen (in a disgusting sort of way). I guess the purpose is met... Nobody who sees it will every forget about safety!

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2016, 04:37:58 pm
content: Interesting aside, as an avionics instrument technician we were prohibited from using any polish on our work shoes. Was bad for my instructor one fine day to send me to read every squadron standing order on file ( around 50 years of them) as I did get to this one eventually, dating from somewhere in the 1980's. Read it, copied it and put it up on the notice board as well in the office. RSM did his nut the next week when we turned up on parade with non polished shoes. Even more when referred to the instruction in his file. Just had to make sure they were dust free....... Just had to make sure every time I saw him in non work shoes that they were shiny, and the metal parts of the uniform shone.Came about because of an incident where somebody had a bad burn to the feet from burning shoes from a LOX leak during refilling.For smokers we would sneak out the pack of cigarettes without them noticing, then go and pour some LOX in the pack, then sneak it back. Next time they lit up it would burn down to the filter in under 10 seconds.....ps Careful handling things in LOX gloves, I broke the snake that was in the lox trolley after I dropped it while picking it up, after it got around 5l of vented LOX dumped on it from a flight tank vent. Oops..... Shattered like it was glass.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 12:55:41 am
content: Quote from: edy on April 20, 2016, 03:32:16 amUnfortunately it's not a "real" safety video but it's instead a parody of such films created for a short film contest. However, it has gone on to be used as a safety film (in an attention-grabbing way) so you could say it's come full circle.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forklift_Driver_Klaus_%E2%80%93_The_First_Day_on_the_Job

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 01:41:27 am
content: I've not watch that clip yet - I don't need to! The Man from LOX is permanently ingrained in me from my aviation days"The safety officer's going to have my ass!"

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 01:47:22 am
content: Quote from: edy on April 19, 2016, 11:11:01 pmYep, that's exactly what they did

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 06:20:41 am
content: Their campaign still has information and video on how oxygen can be extracted from water with a microfilter, even though they are now using liquid oxygen. I hadn't realised they had posted youtube videos in Jan 2014 and from then to this year, all the descriptions involved extracting oxygen from water. They explicitly said the microfilters were for excluding water molecules, so that rules out the idea of filtering out C02from expelled air and recycling the oxygen. They don't have a reservoir anyway and the videos showed all the expelled air going up in big bubbles.A thing about the timing is that in April 2013, the University of Illinois announced their experimental Lithium battery, and at one point, a spokeperson mentioned how it could potentially charge 1000 times faster and be 30 times smaller then current batteries.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/triton-artificial-gills/msg907141/#msg907141Triton claim their project started one month later in May 2013 with batteries that could "charge 1000 times faster and be 30 times smaller" than existing batteries. One month is a pretty good effort to turn a very experimental button-sized low capacity batteries into commercial high capacity batteries. What Triton didn't understand is that the spokeperson for the batteries meant 30 times higher peak current for a given size, but the capacity is no better then current batteries. In fact the capacity of the experimental battery was 1/10th of current batteries.Amazing how the smallest of mistakes like the non-existent batteries, the inadequacy of microfilters and the impossibility of liquid oxygen can bring a brilliant design down. At least they have the CAD drawings for a microfilter design that doesn't work, the explanation videos that they admit were totally wrong and BMX bicycle grips.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 08:21:00 am
content: So what's the problem about Liquid Oxygen? It's readily available on Amazon and other internet retailers:http://www.amazon.com/Liquid-Stabilized-Premium-Concentrated-Supplement/dp/B004IJHHL4Stabilized -- no Dewar needed !

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 08:48:48 am
content: Triton have posted an update.Before, they had both microfilter and LOX canisters both sides. Now, the useless microfilter is on the left hand side. The Liquid Oxygen is on the right hand side. Apparently, they are always looking for ways to improve Triton.They are going to make a new video of the "New Look" Triton. I can't wait to see the LOX canisters. I wish they would show the "functional prototype" they made almost a year ago.

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 10:43:01 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on April 21, 2016, 08:21:00 am"Ingredients: High levels of diatomic oxygen stabilized in water."120ml of Water for 20 bucks.But wait it gets better:100% SAFE, NATURAL, AND NON-TOXIC: Our Liquid Oxygen drops are safe, sterile, and non-toxic. This product is HIGHLY STABLE, with a LONG SHELF LIFE. Thousands of customers have safely and effectively benefited from using this product.MAINTAIN GOOD OXYGEN LEVELS: Liquid Oxygen can help to INCREASE THE OXYGEN LEVELS in your body, which is essential for overall health. Taking Liquid Oxygen supports the proper functioning of every system in your body. In our oxygen-depleted world, taking an oxygen supplement is now ESSENTIAL FOR OPTIMUM HEALTH.GOLD STANDARD PRODUCTION: Your health and safety mean everything to us. For that reason, our Liquid Oxygen is manufactured in the USA, in an FDA approved facility with adherence to good manufacturing policies (GMP) and under the most stringent quality control. You can rest assured that you get the best value for your money!CONCENTRATED INFUSION OF OXYGEN: Your energy is directly linked to the amount of oxygen in your blood. The more oxygen, the more energy. Liquid Oxygen is a blend of activated, stabilized oxygen, which can SUPERCHARGE YOUR OXYGEN and energy levels.GREAT VALUE: Each 4-ounce bottle comes with an EASY-TO-USE dropper top, and contains approximately 250 SERVINGS PER BOTTLE.

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 02:39:35 pm
content: Now they need the LOX to operate the gills to produce more oxygen... or so.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 04:28:46 pm
content: Their update from a few days ago....QuoteWe are called "Groupie Haters". I like that. I guess anyone with half a brain and some basic understanding of science who asks legitimate questions to these scammers is a hater.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 07:03:47 pm
content: 'Tis the way of the modern world. Disagree with someone, even with plenty of facts to back up your position, and you are a "hater". Doesn't matter what you apply it to - it's the same thing over and over.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2016, 08:49:55 am
content: The latest Triton "movie" only makes things worse. I have added a few screenshots.In the exploded view, they forgot do add any holes for the oxygen to actually reach your mouth. Is the green rectangular block the electronics? Must be using uBeam connections.The second shows as much of the of the LOX cylinder as they were prepared to show. Not surprising as the other end is a real problem. There has to be at least a separate vent and gas outlet - perhaps three ports if a third inlet is needed so the phase converter can be bypassed for filling with LOX. It is still too thin considering the 10mm walls that are needed. The vent has to be designed so that water cannot freeze around it and block the vent - that is not easy or compact to achieve. Outlets are forbidden on the bottom of a LOX container, and they already have them on the side. Makes it interesting to use. They basically haven't even tried.The LOX cylinder cannot meet any of the minimum requirements to get permits for transport, so you will need to get the LOX refill right at the diving site. I am sure Triton will tell us that they have already arranged for LOX manufacturing and filling sites at every diving location and on every diving boat around the world.Still wont be safe for transport, but apparently it will be safe to give to kids to use next to their faces underwater.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2016, 09:51:18 am
content: Quote from: edy on April 22, 2016, 04:28:46 pmIhatesolar energy, didn't you know

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2016, 12:48:13 pm
content: Now they have an automatic refunding system in place. If you contribute one buck it will be refunded one to two seconds later. Maybe they also kick people which wrote "negative" comments in the past.I'm wondering if IGG helped them with this functionality or if they scripted it.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2016, 08:19:51 pm
content: And in the last 4 hours it is heating up...

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2016, 10:19:27 pm
content: I've said it before and I say it again....Companies like Kickstarter and IndieGogo may be inadvertantly funneling money to fraudsters or criminals.... or worse... terrorism. I understand they take a 3rd party "we are not accountable" status and all backers must be aware that if things go sour, they are out of luck with any help whatsoever. I get it.However...Me thinks the U.S. GOVERNMENT would take a very keen interest in following the flow of money, especially to regions of the world that fund terrorism or there is organized crime involved.If IndieGogo can be shown to indirectly be permitting the funding of terrorists, I think they would get slapped so hard they will never recover.I'm not trying to point any blame to the Triton guys, who claim they are in Sweden. Nevermind that some users seem to think they are in Dubai. And I certainly don't want to accuse people to supporting or tied to any such thing just because of where they live or what ethnicity or religion they are.But...Shouldn't these companies (IndieGogo) be required to show where their money is going? They pay taxes, right? They must show money flowing out of the U.S. to foreign accounts, and lots of it. Many of these foreign accounts, owned by individuals with unknown motivations and possibly anonymous bank accounts.Also.... Let's not forget that tax evasion is a criminal activity, and that some of these people being funded are not putting into place proper accounting practices, any kind of disclosure, and all other regular business practices that are required.While I love the idea of crowd-funding, we will come to remember in a few years that this was just another example of greed and lack of accountability (with no proper systems in place to prevent major issues)... Much like the mortgage crisis/bubble, the derivatives bubble, and all other financial instrument bubbles and scams that have plagued our financial world.Crowd-funding is awesome, but it needs to have certain checks and balances and safe-guards in place.[edit:] Companies fail and things don't always work out financially. But they claim BANKRUPTCY and the people who lost the money cannot borrow again for a long time. They have their assets liquidated, their house or collateral taken away, they are punished and held accountable. That somehow makes people less "loose" with money and a bit more likely to be responsible. That also means you don't sleep at night, you sweat buckets, you yell at people for not doing their job, etc.... that's what you do when you risk losing the shirt off your back and ending up screwed over.I do seem to remember a few failed campaigns where the inventors became very depressed and even risked committing suicide.... So I know there are genuine honest people out there who crowd-fund and really feel obligated and responsible. But how many don't? At least if an institution lends you money, you should have a team of specialists who evaluate the project and help solve problems.... much like "incubators" who provide assistance in making sure the projects develop to fruition or at least evaluate projects before they start to ensure that it is even feasible.It seems to me that as far as problems go, crowd-funding abuse is not really a major issue in the eyes of the government. However, if there is terrorism-related funding going on, a whole new set of priorities are given to this. I don't like necessarily the "terrorism" excuse either to allow government to do whatever they want either, but then again... who knows how many millions of dollars have ended up in the hands of organized cyber-crime rings, terrorists and others.DO YOU THINK INDIEGOGO KNOWS WHO IS A TERRORIST OR CYBER-SCAMMER?Anybody half way across the world can make some bull-$h!t device, claim it works, get lucky and raise a pile of money... and then uses it to fund a war. How does IndieGogo know? All you need is some good photoshop and 3D rendering skills... Make a new smartwatch, make a hoverboard, make a cool looking cellphone, make a projector tablet/watch/camera, make a VR headset, 3D display, solar charger, and numerous other "cool" gadgets and pay to get them promoted, and raise a ton of money. Seems nobody is fact-checking or science-checking or even tracking where the money goes.... Except it could end up causing death, destruction and mayhem.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2016, 05:52:39 pm
content: Has anyone seen this already? I just noticed it:https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton-world-s-last-artificial-gills-scam#/Things are heating up on the website, plus a lot of other sites:http://tritonclaimants.spacecrafted.com/

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2016, 06:03:52 pm
content: Hopefully you get free bagels with your LOX.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2016, 06:49:36 pm
content: Quote from: edy on April 27, 2016, 05:52:39 pmThose fucking idiots! They have DONATED money! They have not "invested" nor "purchased" anything.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 08:43:11 pm
content: ..................and............................ They're funded.To the tune of $447,877 USD thus far.Now the long.... long.... long wait................

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 05:37:16 am
content: So, perhaps an interesting plot twist.When I go to the campaign page:https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/world-s-first-artificial-gills-oxygen-respirator--2/coming_soon#/I get a landing page that has their (fake) product picture, and says "Coming soon to Indiegogo" and a box to enter my email address and get on a mailing list.So it appears IGG pulled the campaign again? I am guessing they were waiting for some reason but pulled it prior to disbursing any funds.Were any EEVblog members backers and can confirm if they were refunded?

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 07:29:16 am
content: It is what I was expecting, but I didn't think they would wait until the campaign had ended. The problem Indiegogo has is that they have received a pile of messages over many weeks describing the many ways in which this campaign does not meet the Indiegogo rules and the reasons that the product is impossible to manufacture, and they have replied to these messages by email saying they will use the information that has been sent in in a review of the project. They no longer had any ability to claim ignorance.If they do not fully refund the money, I think they would have no defence against a legal action. I suspect they are now playing a game so they do not get sued by Triton. I hope people get their money back soon, and I hope it is the last we see of Triton.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 08:05:12 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on May 07, 2016, 05:37:16 amIt seems that way, can anyone confirm?

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 10:49:39 pm
content: Hmm a thought, could these funding sites hold off killing the scam until the turn of the month to gain bank interest on it, then kill it and refund the principle afterwards?I'm getting curious with how long they take to pull them.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2016, 12:35:16 am
content: Quote from: Rerouter on May 07, 2016, 10:49:39 pmDing ding ding! We have a winner!

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2016, 12:45:36 am
content: I was wondering whywww.eevblog.comwas embedded in the Triton "coming soon" page (looks like they put up the "coming soon" page from the first revamp).If I go tohttp://www.Indiegogo.com, and go to the bottom of the page, there are a few links - one is "Generosity". If I copy the link, I get this:Code:https://www.generosity.com/?r=ORG_www_AU_0027_ref-XXXX_01620906_0000_www.eevblog.comLooks like they cache the referrer that takes you to Indiegogo and add it to the Generosity link as the referrer. This still happens even if I go to Indiegogo directly on the same browser, so it seems that somehow the last referrer is remembered. I guess it is harmless.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2016, 01:39:32 am
content: Quote from: timb on May 08, 2016, 12:35:16 amI don't think it works that way. At least, there would be minimal advantage to IndieGogo, if any. For one, if the credit card company charges backers immediately, say $100, then the processing fee of say around 2% means that IndieGogo only gets $98 out of that $100 for each backer. Let's say they negotiate a really good deal, say 1% processing, they still lose $1 on each $100 they collect. That's not an issue because they are not keeping the money... they pass it on to the campaign creator. It's the campaign creator who loses the card processing fees.Then when it comes time to pay campaign creators, they take a portion (say 5%) plus tack on the processing fee (say 2%) so 7% gets taken off the top. The campaign creators get $93 out of every $100 that is collected. That's fine, IndieGogo gets their cut, and credit card processor gets their cut. That's if cards get processed immediately.Now imagine if they didn't actually process any cards until the campaign got funded. That makes more sense. They would simply have an approval system with the credit card company. I'm not sure because I've never backed an IndieGogo campaign, so I don't know if it shows up on your credit card statement immediately or not. In any case, that would mean IndieGogo actually never has any money at all. So they wouldn't have any money to "invest" and gain interest on. So there is again no advantage for them to wait because they aren't making a profit since they never charged anybody in the first place if they are "refunding" or cancelling a campaign.Now back to the first scenario... If IndieGogo has to refund money, they can't keep a cut. They have to pay back the full $100 to each and every backer. So they lose at least the credit card processing fee.... Once again, unless they have some incredible deal under the table with them, to return processing fees on refunds and "undo" everything at no cost. Most small businesses still get the "hit" on processing fees when they need to refund clients. It's not the processing company's fault, they did their job. It's between the merchant and client. So for example if I charge someone $100, then something happens and I have to refund them $100, I still only got $98 and refunded $100, so I actually lose $2 every time someone returns something, through no fault of my own. That burns, but it's been factored into the price of goods and happens rarely.So assuming they get the money immediately, and unless IndieGogo is stashing the money away and getting some incredibly good interest in a few months, they are not going to get back their 1% to 2% processing fee from the credit companies. They'd have to be getting 12% interest per year on their investment to gain 1% per month that they held your money.I don't think it's in IndieGogo's best interest to hold on to any money (or even process any cards) unless things get funded and have a good chance of being accepted by backers. They would not want to let things go that far because they are simply getting dinged with credit card processing fees and need to return full amounts to backers. The longer and more money something gets, they more they will lose in card processing fees that they can't get back. Unless there is some special arrangement behind the scenes with card processors, IndieGogo will be losing money on refunded campaigns. Maybe not a lot, but on a $1,000,000 campaign, even 0.5% is $5000. They only stand to win anything by letting campaigns complete so they get their cut.

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2016, 04:20:44 pm
content: Indigogo needs 2 weeks until they handover the money, they not say why but maybe they did some diligence during the last week and decided to boot them again.I'm quite sure that all backers got refunded, it would be a crime if not.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 01:47:16 pm
content: A message from Indiegogo posted on the Indiegogo Triton Scam Campaignhttps://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton-world-s-last-artificial-gills-scam#/commentsQuote

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 01:57:26 pm
content: Quote from: amspire on May 09, 2016, 01:47:16 pmMust have gotten really high profile for them finally cave and do something.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 02:31:07 pm
content: There is a new copycat Triton campaign:https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton--9#/This 9th Triton campaign is only after $500 and they are not actually offering anything - they just want people to send money.Does this mean Indiegogo would allow the original Triton people to start a new project if they changed the story again?They could admit that they had to make up the story about the Microfilters and LOX to protect the real top-secret technology - Cold Fusion! They could use the Hydrogen in the water to generate the energy to separate the Oxygen, and also since the fusion would make Helium, they could mix it with the Oxygen to make a safe diving mixture.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 03:26:10 pm
content: This is all starting to become some kind of sick joke. Now another guy from the Middle East wants to crowd-fund enough money to buy himself a Triton. He only wants $500.Somebody needs to crowd-fund my new book called: " The Triton Effect "It may be quite an interesting read, if I ever get around to writing it.

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 03:32:31 pm
content: And what did we learned from this crowdfunding project: DON'T use a hammer on your lab coat when it is sucked in LOX!

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2016, 10:00:25 am
content: Huh. So here's what had to be done before IGG actually took notice and canceled the scampaign (and refunded backers):"We organized a small group of volunteers here in the San Francisco bay area in order to put pressure on Indiegogo. My own company provides litigation support for a number of prominent local law firms, including one that specializes in diving & marine-related litigation. We called in some favors to get them to participate with us so that we would be taken seriously. We had a large package of documents with supporting legal materials delivered by certified mail to the Vice President and General Counsel of Indiegogo. We also obtained the support and assistance of a California Legislative Assemblyman who expressed his willingness to spearhead an investigation if the outcome, indeed, was misappropriation of funds from innocent contributors." -Mark Johnson

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2016, 10:33:46 am
content: A very lengthy expose of the people behind Triton Gills:http://scampaignscandal.spacecrafted.com/

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2016, 03:05:54 pm
content: Wow, that's pretty damning - against both the Triton scammers AND Indiegogo.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 06:07:40 pm
content: http://www.techinsider.io/risks-of-investing-in-crowdfunding-campaigns-2016-6Interesting article... mentions a few other scampaigns in it. Plus an excerpt of where the law may be heading:QuoteThe article I linked above goes into further detail.

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2016, 12:23:49 am
content: Now it is completely gone, no loner on IGG, Youtube, Facebook & LinkedIn.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2016, 02:33:37 am
content: Did IGG release the funds? In a way I hope they did. If people are so stupid, nothing teaches like losing money.

author: Kalidor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2016, 12:23:53 pm
content: Quote from: Delta on June 13, 2016, 02:33:37 amIGG charges your CC / PP account after a campaign closes. Probably the account of the backers was never charged.