Should we do a Schematic Bank? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: AngraMelo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2018, 01:50:01 pm
content: Hey guys,I was wondering if we already have or maybe if it is a good idea to have a schematic bank. I dont know if that touches a sensitive spot on the copyright world for comercial equipment but I think it would nice to have a dedicated spot for that.On the beginner`s forum there are many people looking for power supply schematics and other entry level lab equipment.What ends up happening is several threads are created to discuss similar, or sometimes even the same, schematic that a beginner got on the web and is having issues with the origina design. Then, the nice guys here help them out, they fix it but the "original schematic" continues to circle to forum and the web in general and never gets corrected.It would be great to have, for example, a couple of 0-32V power supplies with a simples design, a couple of variable voltage and current limiting fancier examples, stuff like that.Im a beginner myself and although you guys are very kind to dedicate your time and knowledge to help us out, I believe it would be simpler to have a reference bank of schematic that us noobies could have fun learning from.

author: AngraMelo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2018, 02:14:18 pm
content: We could have there as well some simple DC electronic loads, like the one Dave did it. Also a couple of more complex and complete designs. Some nice audio amp designs.

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2018, 06:32:42 pm
content: That would be awesome to have a schematic bank here then trying to find a "working schematic" across the internet.Proof of functionality would have to be a must .A bank would probably have to be limited to open source material since many service manuals are copyright protected .Your right about the dedication of many people here and sometimes I feel badly asking a question that may have been answered a hundred times before.

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2018, 07:26:50 pm
content: These sorts of ideas will never see the light of day. Good designs would just get buried by a mountain of terrible designs, because there would be no effective way of filtering what gets into the database and what doesn't. The people that have the highest tendency of sharing their designs, are often the ones that shouldn't be sharing them in the first place.Even a schematic of a good design wouldn't guarantee good results, as a schematic alone is often not enough to get a good circuit. Layout of the board can make or break the design.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2018, 07:36:34 pm
content: I agree that it's not a practical thing, not only is it a lot of work to curate, but people are already doing it in some form for magazines, blogs, project kits, etc., so if it were going to happen here it would likely be because Dave put the work in to do it, and it seems he has more than enough on his plate!Perhaps an alternative could be something like the thread pinned at the top of the metrology forum, maybe in the beginners section or the projects section, a thread that aggregates good projects with instructions/schematics/etc. that are demonstrated as working designs. That way the effort would just be adding links to the thread as they show up as project posts.

author: AngraMelo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2018, 12:07:44 pm
content: Dave - I understand and that might be the case but maybe there is a way around it. Like DaJ said it would probably be best not give another thing for DaveEEV to work on so I think if we had a pinned post with a voting system for schematics it could work.It doesnt have to be perfect but if we could have a small portion of simple but good designs the main issues with board layout, cables and things like that would be quickly solved by the first builders and those details could be added to the instructions of the project.Not only it would be quicker to find a new project to work on, they would have been worked on (given the people building them again and again) and I believe we would end up with a few very useful schematics/instructions a week. That over the years could be a nice little bank!

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2018, 06:02:19 pm
content: I don't see that it would be any better curated than schematics collected in other parts of the internet.Tim

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2018, 06:29:26 pm
content: There used to be curated (important!) lists of schematics, e.g. Modern Electronic Circuits Reference Manual by John Markus.https://archive.org/details/ModernElectronicCircuitsReferenceManualThey always sounded good to a beginner, but somehow never seemed to be useful.

author: In Vacuo Veritas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2018, 07:48:32 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 14, 2018, 06:36:29 pmYou're right. I prefer lifting circuits from a schematic bank.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2018, 09:00:10 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 14, 2018, 06:36:29 pmYou can't lose what you have yet to learn. Which is the stage many such project-types are at in their education.At least when they're on IC datasheets, you stop looking at them when the IC becomes extinct.The biggest problem with old schematics is that they're old. The specified parts have become obsolete and are hard-to-find, expensive old stock, or completely unobtainium. Finding modern replacements with similar specs and integrating them into the design often requires skills not yet learned.The other problem is that schematics are not the whole story. e.g. If you reproduce the circuit perfectly, but neglect the thermal design with heatsinks and airflow, you aren't going to get the specified performance.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2018, 09:44:59 pm
content: Should we do a Schematic Bank?No.Imagine if it was just limited it to one finished 30V 2A PSU, there'd still be an almost unlimited number of variations and "improvements".

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2018, 10:26:10 pm
content: I think it would be sick for a EEVblog schematic bank but lazy corporate thieves would pilfer the shit out of it

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2018, 10:33:11 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on December 14, 2018, 09:00:10 pmRealistically for the labor most schematics are actually very build able, its just their not mass producible without cost replacement engineering.Even something like a thermal-rms converter chip that LT used to make that was on ebay for like 50$ a while back. The specs of the measurement system are unique enough that if you bother to make the PCB or dead bug the thing like in the app note, test and make a chassis it will cost you like 5-10 hours at least, so paying 50$ for the IC is actually not that bad, similar to going out to the movies and having a decent lunch.I dunno, I just don't really see it too much. Maybe with weird digital chips.. but I was able to buy entire lots to do full board replacements of ancient parts with little trouble, it was just noticeably more expensive then digikey or alibaba, but considering I am trying to resurrect the dead...IMO mostly not worth your time to do parts replacement and cost engineering (even companies don't do this for small production runs, I mean its like kinda looked like but people are like wtf r u doing when you ask too many questions about market tendancies and stuff). What I recommend is buying 3 and carefully taping 2 into the chassis when you are done. **I am only saying this here because I think people get a bit crazy sometimes I read posts and hear things that make me think something along the lines of people wanting to do corporate espionage to see if the DC DC converter for the ring light they built around their toilet will go obsolete in 25 years........................its already fun and very challanging there is no reason to go bald to potentially save 5$ over the next 10 years incase lighting strikes

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2018, 11:00:59 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on December 14, 2018, 10:26:10 pmLet them. They're worth every cent paid.I say this as the owner of my corporation.Tim

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2018, 11:07:36 pm
content: Who would maintain this holy grail of schematics ?KO4BB is already an good place to find some stuff@StillTrying the 30v 2 amps pus without any brand or model should not have a place at all.You need : Company brands and their officials models, nothing else.If not you'll open an pandora box and it will eventually become an huge mess, and the initial idea will be gone.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2018, 11:49:41 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on December 14, 2018, 11:00:59 pmwhen you see the uCurrent clone being sold from India, at half the price clearly with counterfit parts directly using DaveJones documentation from his own web site (this is basically effecting his reputation because uCurrent can get a bad name because someone bought the identical Indian one that no doubt uses bad parts and bad solder practices)... super lazy. They are soiling the brand name. All the worst super careless lazy people will start doing it if its too easy.if you consolidate everything I think it will be even worse.

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2018, 01:39:14 am
content: Quote from: AngraMelo on December 14, 2018, 12:07:44 pmDemocracy isn't going to work where the majority is clueless.But don't take my lack of enthusiasm for your idea as an attempt to stop you. If you see real value in what you suggested, make it happen and then time will tell.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2018, 04:49:31 am
content: Can eevblog manage huge storage space and the time needed to build this Bank ?Who would share the costs, if there is costsKO4BB is doing great, but some sections / uploads have been stalling for a while ...I second Dave comments

author: AngraMelo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2018, 05:31:08 am
content: Well, maybe you guys are right. It is very possible it will be a mess (but we could avoid that by leaving the discussions and suggestions on the regular thread and having the schematics being updated by the designer on the schematic bank. It is very possible that some dude somewhere might try to make some money out of exporting shi#$% versions of products developed carefully, but... although 100% wrong and probably illegal, sharing your schematics is something that someone trying to protect their product wouldn't do.Of course it is wrong to steal it and make money out of it but what I'm proposing is having a pinned place with some clear instructions: here is a place to post the final schematics and instructions for sharing with other people. If you are unsure of your design please refrain from posting. If you are still developing refrain from posting. It is not a place for people to dump schematics they found on the web. It would be a thread where people could go to find the projects of the members, all in one condensed spot. I don't think it would make a big impact on the servers given that it would be just rearranging (done by the designers themselves who want to post there) the files.Another thing, 90% of the schematics you guys post many people can't just build. Not just because of skill but because South America, Central America, parts of Europe, Africa... simply don't have access to digikey type places. For me to build a project that for an American costs $50, it would cost me $250 with great chances of never receiving the parts given the horrible local postal services and arbitrary taxes.So people could post schematics using jellybean components and things that would be easier. That kind of search gets more complicated than just typing away what you want in the search bar.Having a place dedicated for that would be, in my opinion very beneficial.I don't know guys, I have no idea what kind of work that would be. Maybe that would be easy or maybe that would be a pain in the butt.Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

author: AngraMelo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2018, 05:38:59 am
content: I can't think of this idea as being worse than for example having thousands of different power supply threads results.If we let the OPs unlimited access to editing their own posts on the schematic bank (so they can be updated for obsolete parts or tweeks), we describe what the place is for (for tested circuits only), keep discussions of particulars outside of the schematics bank thread, it might make things easier for a lot of us.Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

author: AngraMelo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2018, 05:49:34 am
content: For exampleI just build the capacitor leakage tester from the awesome YouTuber that I now unfortunately forget the name. Because I live in Brazil I didn't have access to a couple of parts so I had to make some changes. I used some stuff that is easy to find locally so if we had that thread I could post: Capacitor Leakage Tester from designer xXxX with easy to find parts.That is a very simple and crude example but there are some other schematics here that would need a good deal of component swapping to make them work with local stuff. That kind of help is huge. I could include where I got the parts, and leave some comments about where I got the case for it and what other ones that are available here might work aswell.Maybe I'm mistaken and that is very specific situation to me but it would be great to have that optionSent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2018, 08:20:59 am
content: Quote from: AngraMelo on December 14, 2018, 12:07:44 pmBrexit. Trump.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2018, 09:40:29 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 14, 2018, 06:29:26 pmI had one of those and eventually threw it in the rubbish because I spent so much time looking in it for stuff that turned out to be a disappointment.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2018, 09:57:49 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 15, 2018, 08:20:59 amI was thinking of the same 2 words, but after reading this reply.Quote from: Dave on December 15, 2018, 01:39:14 amPerhaps it's just me, but I don't think I've ever built anything to the schematic, even if it was a kit.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2018, 01:22:09 pm
content: Please dont bring politics here ...Always follow the manual lollWe should ask Dave the EEvblog God Guru for what he think about hosting a plethoa of manuals ...We have many opinions, but the most important is Dave, this forum is under his care.

author: AngraMelo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2018, 04:11:25 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 15, 2018, 08:20:59 amSo, after that comment should I post my political view as well?I guess not, right?Ok, if the voting system does not please you. Having a single thread with the schematics wouldnt be of service to the blog? Instead of having them scattered around?

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2018, 05:26:25 pm
content: The forum part is not really good to work as a kind of data-base, as the search functions are not very specific and added comments add to the mess that a list of schematics would already be. So it would be more like a forum thread to discuss each circuit if needed.I think the task would more or less end in a mess with a few good circuits and a lot of buggy ones. Even an original good circuit could end up bad with small changes that were added in good faith, but not really tested.There are already a few such systems that try to offer an overview of circuits. In principle the setup is usually OK with first some hierarchical sorting (e.g amplifiers , voltage regulator, oscillators,...) and than separate pages for each circuit. However there are way to many bad circuits and essentially the same circuit over and over again with a different type of transistor or OP. So to make such a thing work it would need quite some work to care for quality. My fear is a community based quality control would not work. Another problem is old parts getting obsolete - .e.g. a circuit build around the old LM121 or MC1466 is not directly useful today.In theory yes - but it would need at least a few people to really spend serious time on this.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2018, 06:04:47 pm
content: The problem is, with no funding, such a system depends upon democratic means.The 90-10 rule applies here just as anywhere else. 90% of this community are interested in the subject, or the videos, or this community, but are non-technical. 10% of the technical population, in turn, is highly technical, and 10% of them are expert-level technical.To curate a technical collection, we want the opinion of those technically inclined. The 10%, at least, if not the 1%, or preferably the 0.1%.At the very least, this is not a system that can produce useful results with the usual democratic processes. An all-inclusive vote will only turn up shiny, useful-sounding, well-promoted things. But unlikely anything that works, or workswell, in a technical sense. In other words, the disappointing kind of results you get from any real-world political process...Mind, this process does work nicely, when the 90% have an applicable opinion of the material. Reddit, Imgur and such are sorted this way, which works fantastically for casual, amusing things like cat pictures. We're talking a very different distribution of knowledge, here.It's also not a system where we can use a democratic representational process. If we vote on who we think are the experts, we'll get more self-promoters and bullshitters than actual experts.We could have the self-proclaimed "experts" vote on other experts, but that forms an in-group, a clique, and you'll probably get everyone else complaining that it's a bunch of elitists or intellectuals. Well, that shows a number of problems, not all of them the fault of said group. But that's the reality of life in the western world...What would be needed, is 1. some means of assessing who is legitimately in that technical category, and 2. obtaining their opinions without being irritating or demanding.Tim

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2018, 12:30:34 am
content: Maybe a *project* bank, where the schematic *and* an actual working model has to be posted, that the user themself has constructed and debugged. That would sort out the wheat from the chaff.