I quit my EE studying in university.. can I still work in electronics ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Louai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 12:11:32 am
content: Hi everyone , I need your advice please..Recently I quit my university (EE) in Israel after finishing 2 years of materials that took me longer than that because I struggled with it. it is the top tech university here, but I hated it, not because it had hard study materials, I didn't find any material too hard for me, but I reached a solid conclusion that this is because universities traditional dictating way of teaching doesn't motivate me and doesn't fit my way of learning and it is far from my hobby in electronics that I had in my childhood, actually being a student was depressing for me. I could talk a lot and elaborate about this topic.Now I'm considering what to do next..Since I know some programming both from my high school and university and I fairly find it interesting to some degree, and after thinking of many options I'm thinking to take a university program in web development for 1 year, it's going to be mostly practical and job oriented with many projects so I can bare it. I will also learn some languages like Java and Python online on my own and work on some projects and by a year from now I could start working in this field, I need to have a reliable job at this point I'm 28 and married.The good thing also is that software related jobs are open for people without a degree and it's more skill based than jobs in electrical engineering, it's hard to get in electrical engineering jobs without a degree in our days, it was more possible in the past.So financially and practically this seems to me currently the best option to move forward, the problem is that by going that path I change route in my life! and getting away from electronics where my heart is, I'm fearful of that.I considered that even having enough time for electronics as a hobby at home would be hard with a demanding Job in software, and it would be harder to take my hobby in electronics to a more professional level without working in the industry.I know that some few people make it into electrical engineering jobs by starting small like technicians, testing or whatever and climb up the ladder slowly to EE, also by showing projects of their own as an experience , but that's a long road for me without a reliable good paying job.What should I do ?Could you think of a path to take in software that could bring me at some point to electronics without a degree ?Is it reasonable to have an electronics hobby while working in different field that needs self improvement on it's own beyond the working hours? and can I bring this hobby to a professional level where I could become employable in EE field someday in the near future ?I should add that I'm planning after few years (like 3 years) to move to the united states and it's going to be a different market there I guess.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 01:04:08 am
content: Quote from: Louai on May 16, 2018, 12:11:32 amHow do you plan to do this? Do you have family with US citizenship who can sponsor you for a green card? If not, I assume you will look for employment. You will find that very difficult. Companies can bring you in on an H1B visa but there are quotas to how many such employees a company can have. The typical next step is to get sponsorship by the company for a green card. To do this, the company has to prove to the government that it has advertised a particular position within the US and that they cannot find anyone with suitable qualifications. You would have to have qualifications superior to those of the domestic workforce. Without a degree, that is almost certainly not going to happen. Indeed, I cannot imagine an employee accepting an application for a professional electronics engineering post from someone overseas without a degree.Many companies, typically the larger ones, will receive many resumes for an open position and the initial screening process is based on very scant reading of them. As someone who has screened many resumes, I would see dropping out of university as a major red flag whether it is a fair assessment or not.

author: Louai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 02:21:54 am
content: JohnnyMalaria , my wife is an american so green card is not hard to obtain for me.

author: David Chamberlain
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 07:01:48 am
content: Buddy, I'm going to lay down some hard truths for you in the hopes that you reconsider your course of action. I've read hundreds of CV's doing hires in my workplace for EE's / Web devs / service technicians.A degree backed candidate tells me one thing and one thing only - This person is prepared to take shit and get the job done. The value of a degree beyond that is minimal as I've seen PhD's apply for embedded firmware roles who don't know the difference between a char and an int. So I take degrees with a grain of salt for the most part. The biggest takeaway from such a candidate is at very least I'm looking at someone who can stick something through to the end and SEE THE JOB DONE <--- that's important.Of course there are always exceptions, candidates who have a tone of projects and references behind them and no degree all that shows me the same thing... BUT they are extremely rare. AND depends on the role because that person is not likely to be put in charge of particle accelerator design - by way of example.My first preference is to shortlist the degree candidates and keep the others hanging just in case ( I realize that might sound a little cut throat but them's be the breaks)Perhaps after two years you just got a little burnt out and need a break, I get that and is totally cool. Perhaps after a rest you will go back and finish it?Please though what ever course of action you take never ever say this in an interview "...because universities traditional dictating way of teaching..." and anyway if you really decide not to go back why not just say 'Hey I gave it a go and found EE was not for me after all' that's OK as well.You got 2 years in and say you didn't find it all that hard... that was not my personal memory at the time it was a struggle and a grind for me (maths especially) but I'm glad I can look back now and say that I did.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 12:02:11 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on May 16, 2018, 01:04:08 amI heard a "joke" from someone working at a big company recently: "We always begin by taking the top half of applications and throwing them in the bin. Those people were unlucky, and we wouldn't wan't to employ unlucky people anyway."

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 12:11:18 pm
content: Quote from: David Chamberlain on May 16, 2018, 07:01:48 am^^ This.Which is the opposite of what the OP is demonstrating. Much of the stuff you will have to do out in the big bad world will be less logical and more frustrating. Not the other way around.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 12:12:40 pm
content: Finish your degree. You can switch to another field if EE program is not for you

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 12:17:38 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 16, 2018, 12:11:32 amIn most countries, yes. Experience and talent trumps qualifications.In Australia for example very few employers care what qualifications you have, it's tucked away at the end of your resume.Different countries and cultures vary.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 12:25:20 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 16, 2018, 12:17:38 pmKeyword:experience. No previous employment in the field and no formal qualification? Hmm.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 12:43:41 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 16, 2018, 12:11:32 amOk so are you more practical oriented or more theoretical?What does your (dream) job look like ?Is there some form of BSc education in your country with more practical classes (some fat in the meat to make you more enthousiastic than books alone ? )My personal history: I did MBA at university for three years and quit halfway the 3rd year because I realized I hated most of the classes, it was superficial bullshit and I like to know more about electronics than organisational theory.Changed to BSc EE and loved it all A's , then could not find work in EE so changed to embedded software, still close to the hardware and I like that very much.A few years back my company wanted me to learn web stuff and all that was to far from hardware for me to stay interested so dropped that as well.You have to find what you would like to do, best way is to join linkedin and start to link to persons close to your livingplace having a job you might like and start a coffee talk with them. Show them you are in doubt of which course and would like to know what their job looks like.So start from the job you like, then see what education best fits that job.QuoteThis sounds like you are not really wanting it. Don't do it then. IMPE you should do what gives you energy to study and energy to do.If you already think it is a struggle why do it ?QuoteOuch that changes things, if you are an earner you should look at evening studies. This is really hard, I had to do the last two years of my EE besides a day job, did not have a partner then so I put in 12 hours a weekday, 9 for work and 3 for study, in the weekends another 6 hours a day.QuoteThere are a lot of jobs yes, but you still have to pull your weight. Experience counts.QuoteWhy? You can always have it as a hobby. Change is often considered scary. After my EE I was pretty devistated that I had a SW role, but as long as it is close to hardware it was pretty fun. My knowledge of EE and hobby experience even made me more valuable than my other SW colleagues to the companies. I still practice it as a hobby which is also fun, without the pain of a boss or marketing guy demanding the impossible.QuoteNonsense argument, I proof you wrong. It is the wife that will take up the most free time next to your jobHow to manage that you have to find out on your own, each one comes with(out) a different manual.QuoteThat sounds like you would like to start your own business, which is again an entirely different path. What is it that you really want to do, and be reasonable , a superhero, billionaire business owner is not an answer.QuoteIMO at least get a BSc degree, perhaps besides a day or parttime job to help support your wife. Why a degree, because it helps getting hired and pays more in the long run than without a degree. The only reason a degree won't help is if you want to start your own business but from your words I don't hear an entrepreneur

author: Louai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 09:31:00 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 16, 2018, 12:17:38 pmThat's nice but with 'Experience' you mean experience working in a company in the field or could be working on my own projects ? because if you mean the experience working in the field in a company then how could I get in the first place to the first company without a degree ? is there a way ?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 09:40:00 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on May 16, 2018, 12:11:18 pmI don't agree there. The real world makes much more sense and is a lot less artificial feeling than a lot of coursework. It's such a relief to do something useful, or something that has a chance of being useful.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 09:41:44 pm
content: Well, the way it's to go back to school and finish your EE degree or start a new one. There's no magic way to bypass the standard by which every applicant's academic prowess is assessed. Granted, specific academic discipline often falls by the wayside once you are on your career path but, as mentioned earlier, it's a way prospective employers assess your ability to apply yourself, deliver results etc. It signals your potential.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 09:48:22 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on May 16, 2018, 09:41:44 pmExcept that it's not, or not necessarily. In some countries people adhere to degrees a lot, in others other things are more important and in both cases there's exceptions either way. Not to mention we've told each other you need degrees to succeed so much that everybody and his cat has one, including a lot of people you wouldn't want to employ.It tends to be a good start and make life a bit easier, I'll grant you that.

author: Louai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 10:59:40 pm
content: Quote from: David Chamberlain on May 16, 2018, 07:01:48 amI think you are misjudging when you say that university dropouts can't take shit and stick to end and GET THE JOB DONE, in my case I spent almost 4 years to finish 2 years of material. that shows my determination which I consider it more as stubbornness now.I look at quitting differently, This shows that a person have the ability to self-assess and make tough decisions, good traits for employees to have. Especially when he didn't drop out of college to just waste time, and especially when financial reasons and family obligations exist!As you said the degree doesn't show anything about your talent and ability, and more than that I see it as a waste of time, so I'm not inclined to go back and finish my degree, at least not in the coming few years, and I hope I won't NEED to do that in the future, Imagine how not motivated you would be going back to university to study more years to finish something that you know deep in yourself and by experience how vain it is for a shitty piece of paper when you can study much better on your own, it's depressing even to think about it.I'm tired of doing that thing that contradict with my mind and soul just because it's needed for an imaginary job. the problem was always with motivation.If I didn't need to work in the same time, If I didn't have family obligations maybe I would be able to take more of this shit until I finish it but I would still consider it an unfortunate waste of time because I know that deep with no argument about it. I just hope that the world was functioning differently in this matter.And to all those who tell me that I should finish the degree, I'm sorry I already took the decision, and I can't be a full time student anymore so it's going to take more time if I goo back. and it doesn't help to change to another field than EE when it's going to be the same shit way of studying, EE is what I'm mostly interested in but universities teach it without context, not in an interactive way, too much theory and a little bit of the practical side, I like to learn in an interactive way, online self paced learning mostly, to learn by discovery.. then my goal of learning would be to find an answer for a question already in my head that came out of reality and practicing,mostly in order to implement it in something I'm working on, I'm motivated to study like this and could read a whole book in one day to find an answer for a specific known question.but when I'm in university I don't decide what to study and when and in what pace, and the goal is to FINISH and FINISHING is not enough reason for motivating me in studying, especially when my knowledge is evaluated with a shitty impossible exam that the professor can't pass it himself, and when I feel my self an expert in a course and have to repeat it to improve my grade which was based on wrong evaluation system in the first place! for these reasons also most students end up forgetting all what they learned after the course is finished. it's not like you are working on a project that you want to finish it where you have a practical goal where you see real results of your effort.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 11:12:39 pm
content: A degree shouldn't really matter, but in many cases it does, especially to larger companies. It doesn't even have to be a degree in the field that interests you, having *any* degree will help you significantly and I say this as someone who dropped out of college due primarily to financial reasons at the time.The degree certainly doesn't guarantee anything though. A few years ago I interviewed a gal who had a phd in EE, it was for a software job but being a hardware guy myself I was looking forward to talking to her. Well as it turned out she didn't seem to know much at all about EE, and didn't have the software skills we were looking for either. I've worked with some really brilliant people, and some less so and frankly I have not seen much correlation between the degrees they held and their abilities to do the job. If anything it seems the higher the degree, the less they have in practical abilities, but the degree will still help you get in the door.If you do have to drop out of school, make sure you never stop learning. Also, having to finish a project you started, even if you are no longer interested in it or can't see it going anywhere in the market is a significant part of work. Employers will want to see that you can take on a project whether it personally interests you or not and drive it all the way to completion without being pushed along.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 11:16:27 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on May 16, 2018, 09:48:22 pmI understand where you are coming from. The OP has said he wants to move to the US in 3 years or so. Getting into a mainstream company for a professional engineering position will almost certainly require an appropriate degree. Of course, a smaller company that someone you know knows may offer you a position but at a lower level. The benefits would likely not be very good. At 28, starting a career in the US means playing catch up on retirement savings etc. That's a big deal that people that age generally ignore.At some point everyone has to endure something the idea of which they detest and fear. Look beyond the fear and see the long term benefits of doing that thing. Just about everyone has tales to tell of the crap they have had to deal with during their career. It's just the way it is. Your seniors and elders call the shots. In my own case, about 3 years ago I was shuffled off into a part of the company that most people hated. It was also about 120 miles round trip everyday. The place was soul destroying. I didn't get to apply my knowledge. Well, I did. I solved multimillion dollar issues that the powers that be then chose to not implement. "What's the point?" I thought. I could have just left but there was a huge, huge carrot that meant I *had* to stay 2 more years - health insurance benefits for life after leaving. Everyday of those two years was a test of my resolve. I counted down the months, then the weeks, then the days and even the final hours. It was tough but it was the right thing to do for the sake of my future.There also some seriously fucked up behaviors in Corporate <insert country>. One is that you may have been employed for your expertise, you may be known as both an internal and external expert in your field but your company won't listen to you. Instead, they'll pay for outside consultants to come in and believe them. It can be truly fucked up and I didn't see many beds of roses. It's a sad reality that for much of the time you don't get to flex the academic muscles that the company required from you but you deal with politics, incompetence and general bullshit.

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 11:29:50 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 16, 2018, 10:59:40 pmWhat you think only counts if you are the person doing the hiring. This tells me you'd be better off seeing if you can do some kind of self employment.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 11:37:58 pm
content: I'm going to put my hiring manager hat on. You have asked for advice and the advice you have received is overwhelmingly the same. You are coming across as not listening to that advice but being defensive and hoping someone will provide the key to unlock an imaginary door.Quote from: Louai on May 16, 2018, 10:59:40 pmBut you DIDN'T get the job done. You opted out. That's the point others are trying to make.QuoteAs hiring manager, all I get is you didn't finish the job. The reasons may be very noble. How you respond to family matters may have no bearing on your staying power in a corporate environment.QuoteThe odds are very high that you will.QuoteI'd be impressed that you faced something you passionately didn't want to do so that you could provide a better future for you and your family.QuoteImaginary? Yes, motivation is a problem especially if you admit to have an issue with it before you are even through the door.QuoteWell, it doesn't.QuoteTwo deal breakers. You would be employed to complete projects that the company requires for its business. You won't get to pick and choose your work nor the timeframe to complete it.I'm sorry you are frustrated. The advice given in the many responses to your original question is well-intentioned.

author: eyiz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 11:53:33 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 16, 2018, 12:11:32 amEverything is possible. Follow your passion. As I see it, the only problem you have is that you're married. Single people can take time out to pursue all sorts of interests. Thinking only of themselves, and their own self development. But, married people have to allocate time to the spouse, and kids when they come along. That's a reality that must be taken into account.You can do anything, but you can't have everything.You can, for example, get into web development, and use that skill for earning income. Then, use that skill again to set up and run your own Electronics web site in your spare time, learning Electronics on your own, as you go along. Fill your Electronics site with lots of content that brings in visitors, then sell those eyeballs to advertisers, to earn some extra income from your hobby passion. Then, sign up for some online Electronics courses, and eventually enroll in some University Official distance learning program and complete your degree in EE. Now, with your Electronics web site, and EE degree, and web development skills, to make you look smart on your resume, you apply to for a job at some company that sees the value in having someone around with that particular complement of skills. With your foot in the door, at one of these companies, you can then work your way towards whatever particular area of focus you might have. Some companies will even pay for additional education for you, some even pay for your PhD, which you can actually do sometimes while working at that company etc..all you really need is to "demonstrate" a strong interest and high motivation to the right person in these companies. By your Electronics web site, and online courses, you'd "demonstrate" that committment and interest to the field. So, go for it, and beg the wife forgiveness for any neglect she feels because your attention is focused on your true passion.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 12:02:50 am
content: You've written so much stuff that paints a really unfortunate picture. Let me pick just one quote out of all of it:Quote from: Louai on May 16, 2018, 10:59:40 pmWhat makes you think that a real job won't be just the same only more so?For heaven's sake don't try to work in programming/web development. That is the definition of a high stress, head down, get it done quickly, don't question orders kind of workplace.But it seems to me that what you are having trouble with is "mind work". That doesn't seem to fit your temperament. If you don't find enjoyment in solving abstract problems then you need to find something more concrete and practical instead. Something hands on, mechanical, physical, perhaps?

author: ucanel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 01:02:40 am
content: I am sorry to hear you drop the EE,as I understood you could easily finish it if you change your point of wiev.As an EEE and little job experienced one (2 years)I used all of the things at my job that I learned at the university,everything come across this or that way usefull for the real job,and many times I got the real meaning of what I have learned at the school when doing a job.I do not want to encourage you to not to ever finish your degree butI had to say this, my last boss did not have the even high school degreebut he was really really very hard working person andhe was knowing the needed subjects for the job he was doing better than me, I learned so many things from him.As an primary school degree boss he has nearly 100 employees,and he is building control cards for nearly 30 years.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 01:27:48 am
content: Read "Max Wien, Mr. Hewlett and a Rainy Sunday Afternoon" by Jim Williams. Then read who Jim Williams was and what Bob Pease and others had to say about him when Jim died. Also read about Bob Pease and Bob Widlar and read articles they wrote for trade magazines.You'll find it difficult to get a job without a degree except as a technician. But Jim worked at MIT for many years as a technician at low pay.I personally am now completely unwilling to take a class in anything. But I have 12 years of university and a 5000+ volume technical library. I spent 4 years pursuing a PhD at UT Austin and only abandoned it when my supervisor, who was going blind at the time, dropped my support. I was not going to start over at Stanford and spend another 4-6 years not making any money. I'd already lost $100K in income working as an RA.I did not get my union card, but I acquired the skills the PhD brings with it. I recently spent 3 years teaching myself sparse L1 pursuits from "A Mathematical Introduction to Compressive Sensing" by Foucart and Rauhut and the 3rd ed of "A Wavelet Tour of Signal Processing" by Mallat. That is by far and away the most challenging mathematics I've ever tackled.Much of university is a con job, but not engineering. The fact is a BSEE is a pretty bare bones training. It really takes an MSEE to be good. There is just too much you need to learn to do it in 4-5 years. It really takes 6-8 years of *hard* work. If you're not having fun you won't be able to keep up. Yes, you will forget a lot of things because you don't do them regularly. that's life. All the MSEE says is that you have a reasonably broad exposure to the subject and you know a fair bit about your thesis project.I dropped out twice before I completed my BA in English literature. I was bored even though I was reading as many books each week outside of class as I was for class. Pretty much a full length novel every day. When I was out of school I worked construction, cleanup in a milk bottling plant and other similar jobs. I also took a lot of geology classes for my electives. I then spent 18 months as a cafeteria assistant manager because I'd grown up in the restaurant business and that was the best job I could get with an English degree. I then paid my way through 3.5 years getting an MS in geology doing construction in the summers and holidays. When I finished here were no jobs in my chosen specialty, igneous petrology, so I took a job in the oil industry as a geophysicist on the promise of training I never received. So my evenings and weekends were spent with a stack of books teaching myself how to do my job the next day.Like the others, I think you have unrealistic expectations of life. Lots of younger people do in the developed world. My father used to say that the natural condition of mankind was starvation and wretchedness and everyone deserved an equal opportunity to fail. You are only special if you work at being special.I learned my sophomore year working in a Pizza Hut, that it's more important to learn to enjoy what you have to do than it is finding something you enjoy. I made a game of getting just the right amount of dough and getting it perfectly round just to avoid being bored out of my skull. Every job has its downside. If it didn't, you would be paying them.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 05:26:20 am
content: Pff you don't want to know how many MsEE colleagues I had that knew nothing anymore about any EE related topic because they choose a different job. If you don't use it regularly its gone after a few years.So many many degrees are about having done it not about knowing it, let alone about being able to do it.The whole gamechanger is the person that can use the old knowledge to come to something completely new. Often having old knowledge could hamper someone into thinking out of the box to get to something new. Creativity can't be taught, you just have to do it.

author: Fire Doger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 07:57:51 am
content: Quote from: ucanel on May 17, 2018, 01:02:40 amThis.You have to understand that as an engineer you can only get the job done with knowledge.You are not a hacker/maker nor a hobbiest, you must get the JOB DONE, and thats the harder part because you you cant skip steps, you have to know what you don't already know to so you can learn it and do the job!I have heard lately the term "fast food generation" and perfectly fits on your situation.There are a lot of ways to learn something, to learn it properly you have to use all the ways.You can learn how to fix a Mac by working on a repair service, if you know how a computer works you can fix any motherboard. To understand how each component on a motherboard works you need a ton of knowledge. If you have experience and you know things that may looked useless when you learned them this ton will be reduced significantly.University has a reason on what it teaches you, way of teaching may not be efficient but your job is to get most of what it can offers and use it to become better.Noone can teach you how to be an engineer or get the job done, this is the result of constantly learning and that's why experience beats degrees, because everything comes in place and you keep adding from overcoming difficulties.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 08:32:08 am
content: Quote from: rhb on May 17, 2018, 01:27:48 amWhile in HP Labs we occasionally pondered the what are the valid reasons for doing a PhD. Theonlyone we could find was "because I want to". Invalid ones included better job prospects, pay etc.QuoteBasically right, but you miss a key point. You willknowwhat you have forgotten, and can pick it up again if/when you need it.Too many people that haven't got a degree don't realise how much they don't know - refined version of the Dunning-Kruger effect. They then make silly avoidable known errors.Doctors sometimes observe that soem nurses think they can do a better job than the doctor. Sometimes that is right; I'd sooner have a needle inserted by a nurse than a doctor. But when it comes to diagnosing a non-trivial condition and choosing a course of treatment, I want a doctor to be involved.QuoteYes.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 10:52:31 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 17, 2018, 08:32:08 amStatus, egoQuoteMy partner is a nurse (BSc level) and has 20 year cardio experience. She has seen 1000s of cardio patients and their diagnosis.She does the patient intake and can diagnose earlier the new patients than starting doctors or assistants because of that experience and she has to correct them also occasionally when they missed something. You don't know what you don't know and the books are not covering all cases.So yes knowledge is important but years of experience count equally IMO and in tech it is really important to stay up to date with developments and since they are getting faster that is the real challenge.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 11:33:21 am
content: To the OP:Yes you can work, but not as an engineer. Also, for the same work you will be payed less (than an engineer) for the rest of your life, and that DOES matter.The first 1-2 years are the hardest,make an effort and finish your classes. Grades doesn't need to be perfect, but it is important to have an engineering diploma.Don't let yourself derailed by whatever current-fashion propaganda you read (like evil corporations / diploma doesn't matter / you can be whatever you want / and so on and so forth).You are so close, it's a pity to drop the school. Try to finish.You won't die without a diploma, but having a diploma will be a great advantage for the rest of your life.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 12:18:01 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 17, 2018, 10:52:31 amIn my case, it wasn't really either of these. It was because I wasn't ready to get a real job. Okay, I didn't want to get a real job. In fact, I'd never really had any ambition about anything and just followed the path of least resistance. But, it taught me a lot. It taught me I had good problem solving skills. It demonstrated that I could identify a problem and apply my own original research to solve it. That's the key differentiating factor between a PhD degree and bachelor's/master's. It doesn't matter in the long run what the subject matter is. A doctorate should illustrate to a potential employer that you can solve problems and deliver. Well, that ain't always the case. I've seen many people in my career with doctorates who cannot manage jack and have appalling interpersonal skills. Academia would be better for them. Likewise, I've seen many people with bachelor's degrees in subjects totally irrelevant to their job who are extremely skilled and experienced. It took 20 years after completing my formal education to realize what I was good at, what I sucked at, what I enjoyed, what I hated and none of it lined up with my job anymore. So I left.I should say that I went to a UK university in the later 1980s and was one of the last group of students to not have to pay any tuition fees at all. In fact, the government gave me money for housing/books etc. I showed my gratitude by emigratingSeriously, though, I can't imagine the burden of student debt. That's socialism for ya.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 01:06:18 pm
content: In the US if you don't check the box for college degree any degree BS or higher you are SOL.For example we have a rental car place where all the employees do is run a cash register and they won't consider anyone without a BS which really sucks to have tons of student loans 4 years of your life and you are doing a min wage job that takes no skill and offers no reward.I am in this boat myself having tons of college credits in all kinds of stuff like DNA technology; I can replicate DNA of bacteria, work in a pharmacy sell insurance and investments, take people blood etc etc but can't find work because "some college" isn't worth shit in this country. You will see people with phd's working in gas stations and as clerks, sandwich shops and "sales associates" all over this country.The degree used to be instant pay raise now it just means they won't immediately throw your application in the trash. I'm hopefully going back to school just so I can get a real job as the US isn't "work hard and anyone can make it" anymore.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 01:08:46 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on May 17, 2018, 12:18:01 pmThat is an excellent description of what the PhD is really about.BS - you learn how to learnMS - learn something from someone elsePhD - you learn to teach yourself

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 01:53:05 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 16, 2018, 12:11:32 amYeahQuote from: Louai on May 16, 2018, 12:11:32 amYeahQuote from: Louai on May 16, 2018, 12:11:32 amYeahQuote from: Louai on May 16, 2018, 12:11:32 amBummerQuote from: Louai on May 16, 2018, 12:11:32 amOh ManQuote from: Louai on May 16, 2018, 12:11:32 amWork hard, get some qualifications and get a job?

author: Gribo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 03:20:29 pm
content: Since the OP is Israeli, I will share some of my experience in that market.1. If you want a position with the large multi nationals, get the degree. They will not even look at your CV otherwise.2. If you want more than 20K NIS/Month, get the degree. There are very few technician positions where you can learn electronics in Israel.3. If you want the easy way to this knowledge, get the degree. The hard way is learning it all by yourself, and it will take you much more time.You already did the hardest part of the degree, so why quit now?If you are doing your degree before your military service, it is extremely stupid to quit now, especially if you want to move to the US where lots of employers see military engineering experience as a big advantage.

author: eyiz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 07:51:35 pm
content: We must never forget, however, that both Steve Jobs and Bill Gates dropped out of school. Then, they hired all those BS, MS, and PhDs to work on their dreams, and became billionairs.So, it's all about the "path" you decide to take.Yes, we need BS, MS, and PhDs to get things done today. But, that doesn't necessarily mean you personally have to have these things.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 08:34:36 pm
content: Quote from: eyiz on May 18, 2018, 07:51:35 pmWrong example, those guys never wanted to be engineers , one just wanted to be a marketing pro and filthy rich and let the real nerd Woz do the EE work, the other rather bought too cheap a ready made OS from a third person, fancied it up a little and sold it under brilliant conditions to the blue giant.So those are examples of enterpreneurs if you want to say it positive not engineers, far from it I would say.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 08:36:40 pm
content: Steve Jobs, same as the founders of Google, would remain sitting in their garages if his majesty Chance would not have sent them great investors who guided them through jungles of business. Speaking of education.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 08:45:08 pm
content: I think, from the OP's reply #14 on May 16th, he is no longer receptive or listening.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 08:46:28 pm
content: To the OP, my thoughts on the subject. Let me qualify my point of view first. I have struggled through many low paying jobs when I was younger and regret very much not going for a degree back then. I am now 64 years old and I believe my experiences can help you to make a decision on your future. It wasn't until the year 2000 that my many experiences started to gel into a decent career, I was 47 years old then. However, it has still been a rocky road since that time.This is a comment that I made on another thread some time ago and it expresses my thoughts about education. Take it as you will for it's face value.Hope this helps...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/i-quit-university-and-now-i_m-doing-a-job-i-love!/msg1365493/#msg1365493EDIT: You will have to copy and paste the link into your browser. I don't know why it doesn't work.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 09:03:40 pm
content: Quote from: tpowell1830 on May 18, 2018, 08:46:28 pmhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/i-quit-university-and-now-i_m-doing-a-job-i-love!/msg1365493/#msg1365493just need to tweak the url brackets a little.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 09:56:48 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 18, 2018, 08:34:36 pmPeople who are strictly engineers can never be billionaires. Nobody will pay an engineer that and they won't be able to pay themselves that with only engineering skills. I'm getting a bit tired of people calling the famous ones non engineers though, or just businessmen. It inevitably is going to take a healthy mix of both to become that big, plus a lot of luck and the balls to grasp the opportunity when it arises. We all stand on the shoulders of giants and it takes more than keeping your head down and working hard to make it that big. Nobody owes you anything and these people went out into the world and conquered it against all odds.It's all moot though. It's basically winning the lottery, except that winning the lottery means sitting on your bum while getting rich and this is anything but sitting around. The stars need to align while doing all the hard work and making sacrifices. It could happen to some of us, but it won't. Looking at the exception will only lead to self deceit.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 10:02:57 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 17, 2018, 08:32:08 amI had an MS in geology and a job as a geophysicist. I went back to school to properly learn what I was doing rather than rely on teaching myself as I had been forced to do for almost 3 years because my employer failed to deliver on the promised training. I was pretty good at teaching myself after the MS, but my stint at Austin made a *big* difference. If you have the skills you can immediately tell who does and who doesn't quite independent of whether they have pieces of paper or not.I did not miss the point. I merely did not emphasize it. I know to a very fine degree what I know and what I don't know. That is a *very* valuable piece of knowledge. It is what makes teaching yourself things you don't know possible. I've got a first order differential equation I need to solve almost 40 years after I took the course. It's shall we say, *painful*. My point was that acquiriing skills you then never use is unavoidable if you are to get a proper education. You're *not* going to do everything. In my case I spent 3.5 years learning to use a petrographic microscope and then never used that ability. But doing that I did learn the wave equation very well and that was how I survived taking a job for which I had *no* training at all. I'd never even seen a reflection seismic profile. But sound and light both conform to the wave equation.At 65 I am astounded at how often I see the same concepts and mathematics in different contexts and with wildly different descriptions. After I had labored many times through learning XYZ only to realize it was just ABC in different dress I got to where I look first to see if some new topic is just an old topic.College at any level for the sake of status or more money is a waste of time and money. I spent 5 years working very hard getting a fairly useless degree. It is valuable preparation for the law which is what I had intended, but otherwise all it will get you is entry to grad school or a secondary school teaching job.I come from a 400 year old family that has included clergymen, admirals, lawyers, engineers, stone masons and farmers among other things. The focus of my undergraduate work was a classical gentleman's education in the 19th century sense. Growing up I was taught to admie skill and education, however it was acquired.In a survey course, if I liked a book that was assigned, I'd often read 2-3 more by that author after I finished the first and before we started the class discussion of the assigned book. When I didn't feel like doing that I dropped out, got the best job I could find and did that. Nine months of that was strong motivation to go back to school.The function and purpose of university is education. It is not job training and much of what is wrong with society today is a consequence of subverting education and selling it as job training.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 10:32:23 pm
content: A 400 year old family? How does that work? Were your ancestors created from clay 400 years ago?

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 11:09:29 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on May 18, 2018, 10:02:57 pmCouldn't agree more. It amazed me, though, how many of my fellow colleagues with doctorates couldn't see it. Often during organizational changes, there'd be a lot of people worried because they believed they couldn't work on something they hadn't done before. I'd explain that they had the skills to be able to do it even though they didn't necessarily have the technical stuff down yet. I 'd remind them that at some point they didn't know how to do the thing they had become proficient at.Along a similar line, I have seen established scientific disciplines "rediscovered", renamed and simply wrong. My discipline is colloid science. 20 years after getting my PhD I went to a conference. The discipline was now known by the sexy title of nanoparticle science. I listened to PhD candidates and post-docs talk about their great discoveries which happened to be 50 years old or more. Their understanding and awareness of the past was dreadful. I've also noticed a terrible decline in the quality of peer-reviewed journal articles. They are full of mistakes ranging from multiple typos and completely wrong science. It's only going to get worse.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 11:25:46 pm
content: The thing that really amazed me was the number of PhDs I worked with who would not read a technical book unless the company bought the book and paid them to read it. And then were amazed that they got laid off.I'm descended on my father's side from English and Dutch Puritans who came to North America in 1635. My mother was a Swede who came to the US in 1944. Growing up I felt very beat about the head and shoulders by my ancestry. I live in a mausoleum of stuff I inherited. I have no children so it's all headed to museums at some point in time.About age 45 I realized this was all about role models for ones behavior. It's a bit weird, but civilization exists because of the indoctrination I was subjected to. If gentlemen who wield power do not exercise restraint, then there is no hope for anyone, even them. Arthur Koestler's "Darkness at Noon" is a good rendition of what happens if those in power are not gentlemen.We are teetering on the edge as most of those who wield power today are decidely not gentlemen.

author: eyiz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 11:33:25 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 18, 2018, 08:34:36 pmActually, that example illustrates one of the truths about our world. Education trains people to see and recognize all the reasons why they will fail, and why they should not try to aim for the big successes. It is often the people who lack a university education that simply don't know that they should not succeed, hence they go and make the attempt, and some of them succeed against all odds, because we really don't know what it takes, we only "think" we do, when we've filled our head with ideas taught at university. The uneducated is represented in the top echelons of engineering business in a higher percentage than they should be, by reason and logic, taught at university.The statistics say, those who lack a formal education, get some kind of advantage by "not knowing" these things.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 11:39:13 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on May 18, 2018, 10:02:57 pmI have a very great deal of sympathy with that.I still remember a relevant old Isaac Asmiov story that is as old as I am and that I read half a century ago: "Profession". It is still worth a speed-read.http://www.abelard.org/asimov.php

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 12:59:00 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on May 18, 2018, 08:45:08 pmI think the OP has used four posts to explain to the world at large in no uncertain terms that he or she is unemployableI just hope they find a better story to tell at job interviews than this one.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 01:37:35 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 17, 2018, 08:32:08 amResearch. Especially at universities or anything government funded.If you want to do research, PhD is a must - pretty much nobody is going to give you a formal research position unless you have it. You can be a great engineer even without a degree (rare but happens) but you can't be a researcher without a PhD - not because PhDs know some special sauce but because nobody will hire you. The doctorate is often literally a legal requirement for filling positions at universities and in research institutes (even non-tenure track) and also on many grants. If the guy or gal don't have the degree, they can't be written into the grant application documents.

author: eyiz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 01:59:35 am
content: Quote from: janoc on May 19, 2018, 01:37:35 amThe keyword there is "give you".The University Degree is about convincing other people to "give you" a chance.But, nothing stopping you from giving yourself a chance, by going for it, without asking others permission.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 03:54:55 am
content: Greetings from a NDE... (non degreed Engineer)I flunked out of EE, math issues. Could not teach myself the math fast enough.Worked my way an Education degree doing evening repairs, buying and selling used electronics on small margin, and working fast food.I don't have "coach" in front of my name and did NOT play sports in school. This means getting hired as a first year male teacher with no sports experience, at the time, was nearly impossible unless you had family connections.Despite having a BS, the best job I could get after College with fast food as work experience was selling electronics parts retail at a local shop for a bit above minimum wage with no health care. I tripled the retail sales for my employer. MY mistake was asking for a raise. While going into major debt every time I got sick and living at home at mom.Was invited to work part time at the college I flunked out of as a technician. Nne years of 32,000$ a year for a 39 hour week so they did not have to contribute to health insurance. Got sick, and it was cheaper before Obama care to be uneployed if your sick. Spent years paying off medical debt. Was paid using "soft" money, aka research grants. Was NEVER allowed to consider msyelf FULL TIME staff.Around 2008 in the debt crisis lost my job due to lack of funding among other things. Sturggled to stay in private industry. For one year in my life I finally made 74k$ plus benefits. Lost that job when FDA audited my employer for a year straight, so back to university. Back to ~40K a year..

author: Louai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 03:55:20 am
content: I've read all the replies on my post, I can't touch on every one but I want to state somethings and correct some misunderstandings :First thank's for everybody who tries to help me with giving me good advice and things that he learned from his life experience, even when this advice doesn't help me thank you for your good intention.on the other hand there are some commentators that I have no heart to thank them, because I can't see the good intention there, for example people who would largely and so easily misjudge me or downgrade my abilities, it's hard for me to take what you say seriously because you got this important thing wrong from in the first place, I want to say to these people that they are NOT my employers, and that I would not like to work for employers like this.Saying that a graduate of EE degree means that he can get the job done is very simple way of thinking, it's the big reason why I don't like how the world function in this matter, I understand of course that many if not most of the employers in this field specifically look at it this way but it's wrong assessment and very simplistic. Maybe you say, I'm not an employer and it doesn't matter what I think, OK.. but I'm correcting your thoughts about this issue so that hopefully you won't make the same simple assessment of someone's abilities just by looking at finishing his degree as a sign of "getting the job done" type of person, you can believe whatever nonsense you want though.I know my self better than others do! and one thing I know about myself now after long experience in academics and self teaching and experimenting with these two is that I definitely learn much better with self teaching and self directed learning than the shitty traditional way of teaching in university, even what I learned in university was almost all on my own.I stayed in university for long time DESPITE knowing that I'm not the type of person that fits with that model of teaching in order to get the shitty vain piece of paper only and because I'm stubborn, and not for learning or learning how to learn.. but I stated that there are financial reasons and family obligations that added salt on the injury and brought me to an impossible situation where it's not helpful to keep doing this, there is a limit for every person's patience and stubbornness, because we are humans.Going back to university for finishing my degree is not going to happen in the coming near future, maybe after some years yes but I hope I wouldn't NEED to do that again and start all over from the beginning, it's impossible, thank you for those who advised me to go back and FINISH it, but this is not going to happen, even if it was a better option in general, but sure not in my case.So I took a HARD decision to leave university, and loose the shitty credits that I gathered and are not all transferable, because it's a dump system.I can though take courses online (from accredited or non accredited platforms) and maybe some courses in the formal way if they are practical and short term and not expensive, you know something reasonable that is not 4 years or even 2 years of same shitty way of teaching.Now I hope things are more clear, the advice I'm seeking mostly is about what should I do next not about reconsidering my decision of leaving university.I like electronics and I want to work in this field, the most helpful advises would be from people who have experience going this route and succeeding in it if there are some people here like that, or help me imagine a road map for the future in how to get to this goal, or showing me examples of others who did it and how. In the end those people exist I'm not talking about science fiction, take for example Jeri Ellsworth.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 04:26:50 am
content: Quote from: Louai on May 19, 2018, 03:55:20 amYou are 28 years old. The best advice from an old man that I can give you in order for you to get a job as an EE is to get a degree. Your chances of becoming an EE without a degree is tiny, less than 1% chance. If you read my posts you will realize that. Jeri Elsworth is the exception to the rule. She had an innate ability to understand the principles of electronics without school. She hung around with a lot of technical people as a result of her involvement with videos and YouTube and other social type web sources and clearly demonstrated her ability to the world. Her interest and drive got her to be a co-owner of a company (unfortunately that went under), plus she was in the right places at the right time, but without her genius in understanding the tech, it would not have happened.I don't know you, so I have no idea if you have that genius or not, but it takes that extra ingredient to be able to get recognized as being capable as an EE. That extra ingredient is sheer luck and personality. Without that magical combination, it most likely will not happen for you. I did not finish school and get a piece of paper that would have opened so many doors for me and solidified positions along the way. Although I learned electronics along the way, I am not a genius and my personality is not a popular one, so no, I am not an EE, and frankly at 64, I will never be.The other option that has been mentioned is to be an entrepreneur and start your own company. You can then hire degreed or simply genius EEs to do the hard work that they learned the hard way or in school, or both is most likely. As Red Greene says "If you're not handsome, it helps to be handy.". So, if you want a job as an EE here in the US without a degree, you have to really know your stuff and be in the right place at the right time.Just my 2 cents...

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 07:59:23 am
content: Quote from: Louai on May 19, 2018, 03:55:20 amSeveral times in your reply you write "shitty this" and "shitty that":QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThis does not reflect well on your attitude to life.Some people try to adapt the world to suit them, and some people try to adapt to the way the world is.People who refuse to adapt and who try to make the world conform to their wishes are going to struggle in life.You really need to think about how you are going to succeed doing anything with your current outlook.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 08:37:17 am
content: Quote from: janoc on May 19, 2018, 01:37:35 amAch, i should have mentioned that! Of course you are referring toacademicresearch and the academic career ladder. It is far less clear forindustrialresearch, of the kind we were doing in HP Labs.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 09:01:31 am
content: Having worked in industrial training and in assessing people for training, I'd always prefer the guy with hands-on experience to the guy with a stack of bits of paper.That's just my take though. You will encounter two types if interviewers; the trade professional and the personnel manager who knows nothing about the job. The latter will always go by number of bits of paper because he doesn't have any other yardstick to assess the candidate by. So, not having bits of paper can be a problem.A favourite ploy of mine would be to give the candidate a job that cannot be done. For example, a repair in which an unobtainable component is blown. I just want to see if he handles that in a professional manner or throws his toys out of the pram, so to speak. The guy with the stack of certs and no real world experience will invariably do the latter. The guy with some experience, even if only hobbyist, will typically report in apologetic tones that he cannot do the job, and expect to be failed. I would reply no, that's a pass. You correctly assessed the job, which is what I wanted.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 09:10:37 am
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on May 19, 2018, 09:01:31 amHaving worked in industry and assessing people for employment, I've always rejected people withonlypractical experience and rejected people withonlytheoretical experience.I have come acrossoneperson that had excellent theoretical knowledge without a degree; he started work in the late 40s when very few people went to university. I have come acrossmany"practical is all you need people" that are great time-wasters because they don't realise what they don't know, and spend a long time chasing down alleys that are known to be dead-ends.The people I've recommended for employment demonstrate they know the theory and demonstrate they have used it to shape their practical work - and vice versa.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 10:22:52 am
content: Quote from: eyiz on May 18, 2018, 07:51:35 pmTrue but how many bill gates and steve jobs are there? Two. The odds of that are very slim. They were also very lucky to be in the right place at the right time. For normal people you need a degree.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 12:28:37 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 19, 2018, 03:55:20 amTry find a job, any job, see how that works.I can't help you there, between me dropping my MBA and restarting EE at night college there were a few years where I tried finding nicely paid jobs.But besides getting a very low payed wage for servicing computers in a store from monday till saturday from 9.00-19.00 and even 23.30 at fridays and getting paid about 25% of what I currently earn, there was just unemployment.After graduation companies were pulling at me to start coming to work. A degree (any degree) might seem stupid but it sure helps getting in a company door.So I hope you have better luck and find something you like, the economy is doing pretty well here, not sure about the US when I hear those stories of graduated people parking cars.In the end each lifepath is unique and trying to emulate someone elses lifepath or follow their advise will usually fail due to other circumstances, changes in tech and/or different society, luck , network etc. etc.There are just too many variables I guess. The only thing that really might help you is your social network, if someone from that network knows what you are capable of, (s)he might get you a job.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 01:38:06 pm
content: Quote from: eyiz on May 19, 2018, 01:59:35 amYes, sure. You can do whatever you want, of course. However, if you want to work within the system, you don't have a choice.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 02:18:50 pm
content: CAUTION< GHOST OF CHRISTMAS PAST RANT MODE ENABLED>I'm a non-degreed Engineer. I could not hack the math at the college level. I was not ready for it, but I could do it now. Ironically I now work at the university where I didn't make it, supporting graduate research and teaching of engineering students. They recruited me. But only on a "soft money" basis at first, which means you only have a job for the duration of the research grant awarded to a professor.I went off and did straight A's in a pretty much useless degree in education with teaching fields of history/geography/political science. I had to switch to another university to clear the bad grades from Calculus, even though I had good grades in Chem and Physics. Having that on the paper confuses HR to no end.It took ten years working at the university, followed by four years in four different contract jobs in private industry, followed by three more years at the university to become a Senior Technician, and be awarded permanent status.Only once in my career has my business card read "Engineer", and a corporation can award that status in my State if the work involved is not concerned with safety of life.LISTEN UP. Don't quit. I make 1/3rd of what my entry level Doctoral level colleagues do. I make 30,000$ less then my contemporary EE colleagues make. Getting a good paying job with a career track took a decade and a half of climbing the ladder.Trust me, getting past the "Ladies Who Lunch' in HR, is extremely difficult in a bad economy. It's WORSE when the economy is good. Bouncing from job to job on one year contracts for ten years was a BITCH.YouWILLbe asked you for a college transcript here, for the rest of your life.I've done consulting work in the past both independently, and via the university for major defense contractors.Some of them have started the process to hire me away from my present employer. I always hit a snag when their HR people find out I do not have a Masters in EE. Which is usually a corporate policy for long term design employment in Defense. Once in a while I've even been "Loaned" to a National Lab..Once a month I have dinner with a mix of about thirty EEs, EE small business owners, and NDEs. There are many NDEs that have a skill that is amazing, in terms of RF, Computing, Math, whatever. At any give time four or five so of them will be unemployed. They suffer, and the EEs often buy them a drink or two, or three...We spend much of our time at dinner, trying to help them find jobs where their skill set and experience matches a need. As they get a year contract, they typically solve a serious problem at their contract employer, and are then passed over for permanence. Even with a well connected team of us trying to help them, they struggle, and struggle often.Some of these gents have tech skill sets that would make them a mid level manager, if they only had that piece of paper......If you want a Bride, If you Want a House, DON'T DO IT. You will experience being used and tossed, used and tossed, and then after at least a decade of struggle, you might get lucky and snag a half decent job.I'm working on a Masters in the evenings. Not because I want or need another piece of parchment. In fact my degree just rehashes the same old College of Education materials that I did as a undergrad. However the 4.0 GPA and the paper work is simply to have it on the resume for the next round of job hunting.A basic, non technical, Masters is 500-600$ a credit hour in the US, and you will need 32 to 40 credits plus a semester off work to get an evenings and weekend MBA or similar. That is 24,000$ you will have to spend a few years from now, for dropping out today.I'm getting the Masters at 3-4 credit hours a semester. My employer "pays" for it, but I'm paying the taxes on it, which are steep!It is not just out of bitterness that I write this, I am trying to WARN you that the days of a twenty year career in technology for some one without a degree or military service plus completion of a two year degree while in the military, are over in the US.I dont give a damn how much you hate the classroom. Guess what, you can do it now, or you can go back later when it is much more difficult to learn while working a full time job. Pick one or the other, or be poor.One of the reasons the College keeps me around, is when some students struggle and want to quit, guess who is asked to grant an audience? Usually explaining what my duties were on the day of the meeting, taking them to see what cool hardware I'm working on, plus whipping out a pay slip, will result in a full grade letter increase for the struggling student. If they want to listen.I take care of the technology needs of 22 Professors, 330 Undergrads, and 127 grad students. That is the same work load of a MD in family practice. Care to guess what I make compared to my GP??I had one nice year as a Field Service Engineer, at ~70K after benefits. However that involved living out of a suitcase for up to 90 days at a time. Flying that often has some strange effects on your mind and body.FSE is a great way to be alone, and even if you look like an Adonis, you will not have any feminine company on the road, unless you run into a really stressed sales gal looking for a little warmth.( Odds of that are 40,000 to 1 against) Your wife will have little use for you when you get home.If you want to cap your pay to 32,000 to 45,000$ maximum for the rest of your life, often without health benefits, please feel free to quit. The first time you hit medical debt in the US, you will probably cry when you get a 20,000 Dollar medical bill to pay off.DON'T QUIT.Steve NDE, B. Edu,<END BLINDING HEADACHE RANT MODE>

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 02:25:35 pm
content: I walked out of a degree in year two, someone offered me a touring gig crewing for a rock and roll circus that looked like a lot more fun....I sort of regret doing it, finishing the stupid thing would not have been that hard, but 20 somethings, what can you do?I drifted around doing some software, bits of hardware and some event production stuff, then eventually wound up spending a few years as a junior electronics engineer in a small company, turns out that having a HAM ticket, being good at analogue and understanding impedance matching is sometimes a bigger sell then the velum, who knew?From there the fact that I understood microphones and how to do audio DSP properly got me a job in a broadcast equipment company (for >80% more pay), and these days I am having fun with audio (and hopefully soon SMPTE 2110 and 40Gb/s trancevers).My job title these days is "Senior Hardware Engineer".The real downside of not having the degree is that it makes getting hired by large companies a non starter, you will never make it thru the HR filters. The other downside is that you have to continually invest in yourself, my annual journal spend is in the thousands of pounds and my book spend is not far off.The key to getting hired is to find companies that fit your expertise but are a little unconventional, if for example you have designed your own audio crossover networks and are not afraid of a smith chart then maybe a sonar transducer company might hire you for transducer matching networks for example. You don't need there to be lots of jobs, you need there to be one for which you obviously fit better then the newly minted local grads do.My concern with you (Provided you could pass my first question "Tell me about something you have built", an excellent filter for junior staff), is that ALL jobs are 50% (on a good day) tedious tosh (Much like a degree), component obsolescence, design reviews, project planning, project status meetings, ..... And the tedious stuff is at least as important as the drawing diagrams and writing code bit.The UK is also still I think a little more open to hiring the unconventional then the US seems to be these days.Regards, Dan.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 02:51:14 pm
content: PS,Like Dan, I spend a small fortune on reading materials, tools, and materials. Often difficult projects run on the bench at home, before formal submission or budget request, so I know I will pass the design proposal review. I spend a small fortune buying used parts to stock my develpmental lab.Because I'm not supporting EEs, but CHE, my home lab has to be very good, and that is expensive.PS, PS, Engineering students from our college are getting introductory offers in the 60K range or more right now, and we're not MIT. In fact, we have a difficult time getting some of them back from their mandatory internships.Steve

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 03:53:55 pm
content: I wanted to study electronics (for a job involving working on computer hardware) but I had a problem with math. Some people advised me to follow an other study just to have a paper (for the same level) So I studied business/marketing. I hated it, it was boring but I got the degree. A month after that I found a job in a computer shop as sales person. Not what I wanted but it adds experience and raised a income. (and that was because I worked in a computershop during my study as a weekend job, not my degree)I moved to my first apartment and on my free day going out for more paint, I passed a complex where there was a jobs-fair for jobs in the IT (that was 1987)I only had a motorbike, it was winter and paint al over me. I went in (not easy , dressed in a grease-coat and looking like I was homeless ) I met man who had always drive a motorbike when he was my age. We had a nice talk and he gave me a card so I could send my CV.The interview a week later was with 2 managers, the sales manager (it was indoor sales support) and the support/service manager (to test my knowledge)I got the job. A few years later the salesmanager told me the man I met on the fair (who was one of the CEO's) had told them upfront they must hire me. The reason they did this was my knowledge and the fact I had a degree. I did not matter what sort of a degree but it told them I could persist something I did not like and was able to think/talk on a certain level of education.If I did not had that degree they would not have hired me (he told me)After that , my next job was based on my proven experience in the IT field and was technical (unix network design)So finally I reached my goal.But at some point I was only solving problems caused bij the sales guys and I switch to a complete other branch and had my own shop over 20 years. I had to stop that due to health problems.My hobby was electronics (repairing testgear) I had/have a website to show what I can and that brought me in contact with a company who asked me to repair a Fluke 5101. I did this and he told it to others and so it went on.I think that if I would now look for a job I can show and prove of my knowledge and I do not think a degree is now still important.In the years I had my store I hired several university drop-outs (they had a weekend job in my store during their study otherwise I would not have hired them. ). They are intelligent and cheap because they could not get other jobs. No experience, not a single degree, and dropping out is often not seen as a good mentality. (they dropped out for the same reason as the TS) A few went back to study.You can think that is wrong and maybe you are more qualified but a company can look at that from a whole different angle. And maybe they are wrong, but you have the problem if they do not hire you. Many technical people are not the best is selling themselves and social skills.If you tell them the university is "not the way" and not good, there is a good change the guy on the other side of the table is an EE and he will not be very charmed if you indirect tell him he was a fool to get his degree. (maybe he felt the same like you back then but did not quit, in that case you can forget it.)You probably do not want to hear this but do not forget, the only thing the companies are interested in, is what you have to offer and that is a combination of experience and education. You have neither. (and if they like you as a colleague but only if the first 2 are OK)So if you really do not want to study EE do not try to find a job as an EE. At least get an other degree and never tell why you dropped out like you did in this topic during a interview. Then work in the industry at a lower level, prove your self and move up. And pray your employer does not decide to do some ISO etc bullshit and kicks you out because regulations do not allow your function to be given to a non-EE (a friend of mine had that problem)

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 04:29:10 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 19, 2018, 09:10:37 amThere are technician type jobs where only practical experience is important. There are research type jobs where having only theoretical knowledge can be a limitation, but a flexible person will fit in OK. I fully agree that for the middle ground between those extremes a person with mixed knowledge is critical. The exception is when hiring fresh graduates. There I expect a good university to have focussed on theory, and I look for candidates who show an eagerness to fill in the practical side in their first couple of years working in industry.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 04:53:18 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 19, 2018, 04:29:10 pmAgreed, but I expect candidates to have done "significant" practical hobby work. "Significant" means they chose a stretch goal, largely succeeded, and can define what they would do better next time.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 05:00:18 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 19, 2018, 04:53:18 pmI've known many fine engineers who have never engaged in electronics as a hobby. More so now, than before home computers were affordable. These days computing as a hobby and electronics as a profession seems to be a much more common arrangement than an electronics hobbyist who becomes an electronics professional.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 05:03:08 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 19, 2018, 05:00:18 pmAccepted, partly because I haveneverseen a solid differentiation between the two.If I was starting out again, I would choose something in the life sciences. Just think of the possibilities for biohacking

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 05:06:29 pm
content: QuoteThe same start as Jim WilliamsAn important thing, do the work you love. Not always possible but you now still can choose. Better sacrifice a few years now as regret a few decades

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 05:31:31 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 19, 2018, 05:03:08 pmI would too. Unless there is a huge breakthrough electronics is going to be a fairly limiting career over the next 4 decades of a working life. Rather like mechanical engineering looked stodgy in the 70s, while electronics looked full of possibilities.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 06:07:52 pm
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on May 19, 2018, 02:51:14 pmIsn't it ever...Thing is if you want to play this game without the paper you almost have to be an academic in your spare time, at least to the point of reading papers and performing experiments (Without the schools support apparatus), so Journals, Books, and a properly equipped lab, which particularly if you want to play in the RF space is not a cheap proposition (Even just keeping the kit reasonably close to in cal once you have it!).Remember that two weeks in the lab can reduce twenty minutes in the library doing a literature search to nearly nothing, so the library is at least as important as the gear!Last time I totalled it for the insurance there was nearly £100k in the lab at current prices (Not that I paid that, amazing how much cheaper gear is with clearly shot power supplies), then there is the fume hood in the garage together with the flammables cabinet and glove box with inert gas flood (Ebay) does not get the use it should, but sometimes you need a clean environment or the hydrofloric gel and foil gloves, or boiling HNO3 and that shit is better outside the house.It is cheaper now then it was when I started, but you are still perpetually shopping for more sort of HP/Keysight, R&S, Gore and Anritsu then you are for Adafruit, and you have to have that stuff at home!These days you are also expected to be able to program in at least a few languages (Including one or more assemblers, C, maybe some C++, a few scripting languages and maybe a HDL of some form).And for gods sake have something as an answer to my "What have you built?" question (or similar), I don't care if the answer is a radio, a treehouse, a steam train, a Linux distribution or an Ikea bookcase (In which case I will ask for a detailed critique of the instructions).Have something you can talk about in detail, because I WILL dig, and the sorts of companies that are likely to hire you without the paper tend to have folk like me and Steve on the interview panels in my experience (It is that sort of company because we never let HR filter CVs, a hopeless thing to do IMHO when hiring engineers).Good luck with it.Regards, Dan.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 07:01:43 pm
content: Quote from: dmills on May 19, 2018, 06:07:52 pmYes indeed. Such interviews arefun, and indicate the kind of place I've wanted to work.The only caveat is that when I've been digging it has been into whatever the candidate has stated, be that theoretical or practical, in whatever discipline.And then I've pushed them to see if they know and acknowledge the limits of their knowledge. That's what I experienced at HP when they first interviewed me; I declined their job offer, but remembered the interview and accepted another almost a decade later.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 10:47:01 pm
content: Yep, if you put it on the CV, it is fair game, and I will have at least googled the subject enough to be able to hum the outline of the tune and know the names of the major papers (Usually if it looks like interesting theory, I will have you do a 10 or 15 minute, "teach me" in the interview, a great way to assess how much somebody really knows, and sometimes I learn something).It always amazes me how many people put "C programming" on a CV then cannot tell me what is wrong with "i = i++;"or why a variable should sometimes be declared "volatile"Regards, Dan.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 10:51:08 pm
content: Quote from: dmills on May 19, 2018, 10:47:01 pm...but they can get the computer to say "Hello world". What more do you want?What is more annoying is how many people report bugs in compilers and other software, when their problem is just that they don't understand when they need to declare things volatile.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 11:26:44 pm
content: Ah the preemption version of the "select is broken!" crowd, yea, aggravating right up there with the "I wrote nonconforming code and the compiler broke my security assumptions, you must fix it!" guys (The GCC bug tracker has some amusing examples, uusally around signed Vs unsigned and type inference).Regards, Dan.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 11:46:40 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on May 19, 2018, 01:38:06 pmThe system is a lot bigger than you seem to think.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 11:51:05 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 19, 2018, 03:55:20 amUnfortunately you are wrong here. Getting a degree means learning methods and procedures to get a project done in a structured way so it gets finished on time. In my experience the people without a degree always seems to have more problems with doing things in a structured way and in some cases missing out on the math is also a serious hurdle.

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 02:31:59 am
content: It looks like the OP posted expecting affirmation that they did the right thing so this thread was never going to succeed because they weren't being told what they wanted to hear.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 08:12:42 am
content: I think degrees are useful for the majority of people. Even the ones we "neglect" here as not practical enough. They probably went into college completely green w.r.t. EE, CS or whatever other study they chose, and came out of college less green and more knowledgeable. They at least now have got a chance to build a career in a particular field.I don't mean to sound like a bully or jerk, but I think IanB has an excellent point. It sounds like you're mad at how universities are set up , and now you're mad at how many companies employ people and that's it largely based on the median career path.You say you have been self teaching yourself virtually all the things to know. Good! That's actually one of the top skills that is acquired in any degree. But again, IMO degrees are a good path for the majority of people. Doing it in another way is IMO "the hard way". You will be competing with people that are both autodidact and have a bachelor/master degree in the field of interest. For self-taught engineers I've seen varying levels of success, but the closest experiences I got with these people is they didn't really make it.. However these people didn't really tinkerer at home, so their bag of experience was competing with others that had education + hobby projects in the field.Again this just my own observation/projection of correlations, but I will repeat myself: "the hard way".Normally I would advise people to start their own business/freelance if they are self taught. This way you could avoid the formal qualifications part. But you do need to have like a portfolio of finished and polished projects to show off to clients that you're capable of the job. But also IMO it's also bad advice, as this should have been your own idea. You cannot just tell someone else that he should be his own boss - everyone should already do that to their own career. I can imagine you're not completely comfortable with this idea since you also need to support a family.It sounds like you're focusing for web development at the moment. In my opinion, this has little relation with engineering and certainly does not require a degree to get you started in it. I did this when I was in secondary school, and it was fun while it lasted. Web development is one of the fastest paced (read: extremely hyped -- we change framework every 6 months) industries there is, so watch out you don't stick too long if you still want to chase an EE goal.What web development did bring me, is the first few steps into programming when I was really young, and eventually switched over to software, embedded and electrical engineering. In terms of hands-on experience, I think I learned the most from my own projects. So I would certainly recommended having lots of those, and see where that can bring you.

author: switch998
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 08:56:57 am
content: Quote from: Louai on May 19, 2018, 03:55:20 amI know a lot of people have chimed in already, and I may not have much to add, but my perspective is a bit different so why not. I dropped out of school to start a company a few years ago, and it was one of the best decisions I ever made, so I happen to agree with you.In my opinion, the purpose of university is to spend a few years of your life bettering yourself. Whether or not you spend those years at an institution or elsewhere doesn't matter - as long as you are learning you can't possibly lose. And if electronics truly is your passion, then you definitely can begin working on projects your own enjoyment and experience... Go start your own business, engage with others, develop software or hardware in your free time; there's so many things that you can do to learn without college.Nothing is holding you back from accomplishing your dreams other than yourself. You shouldn't worry about justifying your decisions to some internet forum, it makes me question your self confidence... and I think if you're lacking in confidence, you'd be better off finding a way to get the degree and just getting a job.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 10:26:41 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 19, 2018, 11:51:05 pmI have the opposite experience.My experience with people with a degree is that they just only know just basics (if you're lucky), or actually not much at all (they were just good in studying).The only ones who do well, are the ones that actually build hobby projects on the side (and not everyone does that anymore these days)I know many people in the field who are excellent engineers without any kind of official degree.Keep in mind that some people just have a different way of learning. That doesn't mean they are less smart.To answer the question; YES you can definitely still work in electronics.Unfortunately you need to prove yourself a little more, since a lot of people still think that a degree says something.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 11:50:33 am
content: Without qualifications it cant sometimes be tricky to get your resume viewed by engineers at the company your apply for a job at.HR will sometimes see no qualification and remove it from the short list they give the engineers.So if you find yourself with no quals but a CV full of cool/impressive hobby experience then you might be better to forward your CV to an engineer at said company as well as the email in the job ad, which most likely goes to HR.Assuming you can track down the email address for one of the engineers.Is pretty common for HR to remove all the good engineers and provide a short list of crap ones because they don't know what they're doing and try to eliminate people with traits when those traits that actually make them good engineers.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 02:19:57 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on May 19, 2018, 11:46:40 pmI think I have been quite explicit which "system" I was talking about - academia, government funded research. If you manage to get a research position in a private company without a PhD - great, congrats. You just won a lottery or are an exceptional individual with a stellar track record where nobody cares about paper credentials.But if you believe that this is somehow within the reach of the remaining 95% of people you are massively deluding yourself. The times where of Jim Williams and similar people who have managed to "wing it" without degrees because at the time it was rare to have one are long gone, these days your CV won't even get past HR unless you tick all the right boxes.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 02:28:51 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 19, 2018, 03:55:20 amOf course they exist. And are rarer than hen's teeth. You have better odds at winning a lottery than trying to make a career in this way.No offense, you most likely aren't Jeri. She got where she is today only by years of hard work doing odd jobs and constant learning since she was a teen, plus some luck at the right moments. Look at her bio and compare it with your own. I would say that right now the only thing you two have in common is that you don't have a college degree.

author: Louai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 03:23:32 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 19, 2018, 11:51:05 pmUnfortunately I think you are wrong here, I've been more than 4 years in university and already got learning methods and procedures to get a project done in a structured way even though I didn't finish my degree. also don't assume that everybody needs to go in the same path that you went in order to learn something that you learned, different people learn in their own way and take different paths and sometimes reach the same result. I already finished all the math classes in university in EE (except one) so I have no problem about math, you are not getting it, it's not just you but many others from their comments think that any university dropout is running away from the "Serious hurdle" , actually most likely going to do more serious hurdle outside university, but in a better way, more real, more fun and motivating.getting a degree means nothing of what you said, getting a degree means only that you got accredited with a piece of paper. look around you will find lot's of examples to debunk every assumption that you assume about the meaning of degrees.

author: Louai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 03:32:08 pm
content: Quote from: hermit on May 20, 2018, 02:31:59 amI don't know what is wrong with you, maybe you have ego issues or problems with your self that you are projecting on me, your assumptions are silly and have no basis, I wrote in my previous comment and made it clear that I'm not arguing about my decision, neither trying to take confirmation, this is not the topic if you can understand English well! it's done already and it's the best decision for me now in MY case.. jeez why can't you understand this.grow up

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 03:35:32 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 20, 2018, 03:32:08 pmseems you also have an attitude thing that needs to be worked on before you start going to interviews.

author: Louai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 03:46:32 pm
content: Quote from: hans on May 20, 2018, 08:12:42 amfirst thank you for your input , appreciated.I understand I'm going to do it in the hard way , I have no problem with that , because the hard way in general is less hard for me than finishing the degree IN MY CASE.Also of course I was thinking of building a portfolio of projects to show since I would not have "qualifications" except half a degree and accredited courses that I would take mostly online and the idea of stating business/freelance came to my mind but I would like to hear from you or others about that part more in detail and what kind of businesses are open and reasonable to get into or what freelancing areas, etc ..me focusing on web development for a coming job is mostly driven by practical financial reasons that I can't avoid, but I want to keep my hobby in electronics, I'm interested how you switched from web development to software and embedded because this is an interesting field for me.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 03:56:03 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 20, 2018, 03:32:08 pmI have to admit I was reading the same between the lines of your posts. The fact that you're so belligerent towards anyone with criticism adds to this notion. I feel we might be glimpsing some of the issues you've had with your studies.If this is representative of how you approach things please reconsider your choices.

author: Louai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 03:59:43 pm
content: Quote from: dmills on May 19, 2018, 02:25:35 pmThank you, very helpful advises

author: Louai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 04:08:48 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on May 20, 2018, 03:56:03 pmDon't give me behavioral advises, keep it for yourself, that is not required from you and don't make silly assumptions you too about me because it's easier to do it behind a screen. I don't need to please you or him or please your shitty interviews scenarios nor your ideal shitty managers, and your advise to me is not accepted, I'm open to positive advises even when they don't match my situation, any positive comment is welcomed, criticism is welcomed only if it's real criticism and built on real understanding not on imaginary assumptions that clearly show lack of respect. many commentators on my post who understood what I mean and gave helpful input, even when they had a different view than me.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 04:35:29 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 20, 2018, 04:08:48 pmAgain, you become argumentative and insultive when people don't follow your lead. Nobody here has provoked this by being unpleasant. There are good people here trying to advance your career by dispensing lessons they learnt the hard way, yet you cast them aside because they don't fit your narrative.We're not making "silly assumptions" when at least some of your shortcomings are on display like this. You don't seem to realize that many people here have seem similar situations in the past. Some even overcame similar issues. People are trying to prevent you from making the same mistakes.

author: Louai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 04:40:13 pm
content: Another thing I wanted to make clear is that I didn't suggest working in electronics hands on with no understanding of the THEORY , or math , I already finished most of the math at university , and have no problem to study ON MY OWN or online courses any theory that is really needed for the subject, that's a different way of learning than universities, I never said I'm quitting learning and quitting the theory, a Degree does not equal Education. so I could bring the same education and even better than another degreed engineer would bring to the interviews so easily, I just would not be accredited with a degree.Of course I understand that I should add to that a portfolio of my own projects since I would not be accredited.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 04:41:47 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 20, 2018, 04:40:13 pmOkay, let's work with that. What projects are finished, what projects are currently in the works and how are you documenting everything?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 05:06:26 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on May 20, 2018, 10:26:41 amA few exceptions don't make the rule. You can't expect someone fresh out of school to have 10 years of experiecence but -yes- people who have electronics as a hobby or had good internships are ahead of the rest. However I disagree that good electronics engineers should have electronics as a hobby. I know several good engineers who have different hobbies.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 05:14:12 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 20, 2018, 04:40:13 pmBut it is a fundamental reality that a degree is the primary key to open the door to your desired profession. Sure, it is possible to do so without a degree but it is highly improbable. It will seriously reduce the number of opportunities for you and, so, potentially (likely) take much, much longer for you to find a desirable position.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 05:37:02 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 20, 2018, 04:40:13 pmI don't know what is different about the particular university you went to, but the tradition of universities in general is self-study. At university you are expected to spend most of your learning time on your own, in the library, reading books, studying, doing tutorial exercises, or working on projects, assignments, or laboratory exercises.In fact, in that way university is a preparation for working life, since at work you are going to be doing much the same thing: reading books, researching, studying, doing experiments and analysis, everything that is required to finish the current project or assignment successfully.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 05:47:27 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 20, 2018, 04:08:48 pmThis is genuinely not meant as criticism but take a step back and try to read your post from a prospective employer's point of view, does it sound like someone you'd want to hire? It certainly doesn't make me want to hire you. Again I'm not trying to criticize you here, I'm giving you some honest input that I hope will help you have a better chance.If you are interested in web development you might consider a 2 year degree in that, there are some rather good programs at the community colleges around here so there may be something similar elsewhere. If that doesn't interest you then I encourage you to look for some sort of degree you can get. Having *any* degree will open doors, and you need a foot in the door in order to get the experience that may later prove more important than the degree.

author: Louai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 06:07:35 pm
content: The situation now is like this : no way on earth I could finish the degree in EE now, and hence for the coming near future I'm going to try the HARDER way, by developing my hobby (including knowledge) into a professional level that could be employable or maybe enough for succeeding in business/freelance, I understand that in general it's harder, but that's still a better option to try in my case now, and my post was about that.It helps to some degree to hear from you all about the probability of this to happen and to see your valuable experiences with that, it helps to understand the world we live in better, but I already knew it's less likely without a degree, I think there have been enough comments to make it clear that it's difficult to get in EE position without a degree. but if 99% of EE engineers got there by a degree then I'm trying to succeed in doing it among the 1% who didn't have a degree .So please let's be focused on how to achieve this goal under my limited condition and not by talking about hypothetical conditions.There have been many helpful comments here that I appreciate.I'm OK with hard work, even though I'm married but I don't have children and not planning to have so that makes it easier.And maybe some of you are right that it's better to go in the direction of business rather than an employee so let's talk about that, who did it, examples, etc ..

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 06:48:59 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 20, 2018, 05:06:26 pmAs everything, it's all relative.We had only bad luck with interns and new employees, as well as bachelor as university.I guess the point is that the truth is somewhere in the middle.The question was if you can get a job in electronics without a degree.Yes you definitely can. Depending where you live, but a lot of times people don't even really bother if you have a degree or not.That also depends if you can back it up with work experience.If the university is not your thing I bet these company aren't your thing either.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 06:53:04 pm
content: OKLouai, it seams that you are very determined and don't want to reconsider your decision of dropping the school, against the overwhelming number of advises that tells you a diploma will be a great advantage. Let's get on topic and see what's to do next.1. You won't like this, but you DEFINITELY need to drop the attitude that a diploma (and school in general) is shitty. School, in general (statistically speaking) is better than self education. There are exceptions, of course, but usually a diploma tells a lot. If you don't agree with that, no problem, but just keep in mind that despising a diploma is offensive for those who already have one. You don't want to go at a hiring interview with a despising attitude. That will instantly disqualify you, no matter how good you are. Confident, yes, despising to others (even if you feel qualified to despise them), definitely no.2. Build yourself a portfolio of projects. Create a personal website, or at least a blog where to post your projects and nicely document those projects. In the eyes of your future employer, this will weight as much (if not more) as a diploma. Keep in mind that you are not competing with idiots with a diploma, but with other people that are at least as passionate as you are about electronics (except they have both the passion and the diploma). So, your projects must be outstanding and impressive. I won't advice for a video blog (or a youtube channel) because quality video production is incredibly time consuming.3. Apply to jobs, then go to the interviews even if the job description is not exactly your dream job. At worst, you will gain experience at passing interviews. You can always refuse the job later if you really don't like it.4. Be prepared to take some shitty jobs in between, totally unrelated with electronics or programming.5. An alternative path is to open your own business. This is totally different than engineering in general, different from either SE or EE. You will need a totally different set of skills, like charisma, risk management, being a good leader, and most of all you will need STRONG CONNECTIONS, relations and friends, and first of all, A LOT OF LUCK.6. Having a successful business is very hard work, and most of the time you won't succeed without an incredibly amount of LUCK and CONNECTIONS. You may want to research for yourself some statistics about how many businesses fail compared with how many manage to just float. Don't even talk about legends like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs! The probability of winning the lottery or being hit by a lighting strike is much bigger than the probability of having a similar success as they did.7. I wouldn't advise for independent self employment or freelancer. This might help you to pay some bill, but use that only as a safety net. Usually this kind of work is not sustainable in the long run.So, go out there, be prepared to confront with people that have the same passion and dedication as you have, and hope for the best luck.Keep a positive attitude at all time, but be realistic, and never, never ever display superiority against "empty diplomas", or against any other people in general, no matter how good you feel you are, or how good you _really_ are when compared with others.I wish you all the best!

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 06:55:44 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 20, 2018, 06:07:35 pmHow much money do you have saved? If you try to start your own business, you will have to expect to have no income for a long time. I left my employer of 24 years. Thankfully, I had saved enough money to give me a healthy cushion. I had no significant income for a year and invested at least $30K on equipment to develop a new analytical instrument, $7K (to-date) for patenting, $2K for insurance, $5K for trade shows and presenting at conferences. I went from decent compensation package to zero overnight. My wife still works but earns a lot less than I did. We have no debts. Income opportunities don't just come along - it's taken a lot of my time. Even with my credentials in my industry, it's been a hard road and continues to be so. If you want to do the business route, identify a market that is poorly supported, develop a plan and then execute that plan. I don't know about other countries but in the US there is a group of typically retired CEOs, CTOs, entrepreneurs etc calledthe SCORE Association(supported by the federal government's small business administration). You may want to consider it given you plan to relocate to the US. You need to understand that 50% of businesses fail in the first year and 90-95% fail in the first 5 years (here).If you don't have the funds to fully support your own venture then you'll need to secure loans. Lenders will want to see that you have the necessarily skills and that will involve proven technical track record of commercial relevance.It can and will be stressful on you and your marriage. You can pretty much say goodbye to free time, casual spending etc for an unknown period of time. Contrast this with the predictable duration of starting a second undergraduate course. Compare the cost of student loans with the cost of starting a venture that carries a high likely of failure.There's no simple answer and no easy way.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 07:30:21 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on May 20, 2018, 06:55:44 pmThere. Fixed that for youThe simple answer is that to get a job, you need to get through interviews and get hired. To do that you need to have an answer for why you didn't finish university. If your answer is, "I didn't like the university way of studying, so I left because I felt I could study better on my own" then you will become a no hire. That answer won't cut it with hiring managers. If you don't like university way of studying, you won't like the business way of doing work. (How do I know you didn't just cherry pick the topics you liked and avoided the ones you didn't like?)To succeed in business, should you try to go that way, you need to have some work experience in the field. Just look at all the failed people who tried to run a restaurant with no prior knowledge of the restaurant business.Also to succeed in business, you can't have an attitude like the one you are displaying here towards people with advice you don't like. If you have any kind of attitude like that towards customers you won't have any customers and your business will fail. (Again, the restaurant analogy: chefs who say their food is fine and the complaining customers just have poor taste don't have many customers.)So really the most important thing you have to do is to fix your attitude to life, the world and to people around you. Otherwise you will be unemployed or doing minimum wage jobs for the rest of your life.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 08:06:02 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 20, 2018, 03:46:32 pmFor me it happened naturally. The first steps were small and simple, but I was only like 11 to 12 at the time so I was full of joy when I figured out what an if statement and for loop would do. I proceeded to use PHP5 for like 4 to 5 years and build more advanced stuff , up to whole forums software with BB code parsers, template engines, administration backends, etc. To me it came naturally since I was involved in the local Dutch webmaster communities (much like a board such as this).However at some point I was a bit fed up by the community, and stopped building/contributing to these webmaster communities. I was mostly a backend developer anyway. The software I would write for my own purposes ("intranet sites") could also be made as desktop applications. I started writing C# and Python programs instead. At first this was a bit of a learning curve, because "scripting" and "programming" are mentally very similar exercises, but programming requires more knowledge and experience to do it well.Actually at the age of 16 I was already decided that I should get into EE instead. I skipped CS because it's either full of people that want to build sites (which can be done self-taught - PHP is not hard), people that study CS to "get into IT" (should have chosen the business CS variant..) or are very skilled programmers that are very skilled because they are self taught.At the time however I didn't tinker with EE at home, which perhaps mean I was behind, but given enough dedication I caught up and at some point I saw the courses mostly as busy work and focused on my own projects which were a combination of the two. Now I'm fully between both fields, focusing on digital and/or mixed-signal systems given both my EE and "self taught" CS background.You could say that perhaps by accident I got out of the webdev domain. A friend from the webdev communities actually stuck to website backends, but has since dropped PHP and is now doing some very abstract functional programming style for some very big clients. On paper he also has no degrees to be a programmer neither, but worked himself up among the ranks.I think it shows that a non-linear path can also work, given that you work hard at what you want to accomplish.

author: Louai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 08:48:32 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on May 20, 2018, 06:53:04 pmFirst thank you that was really helpful input.Regarding the first point you mentioned that I need to drop the attitude that a diploma (and school in general) is shitty, I don't see I need to drop my attitude towards it, I'm being honest with myself and you, this is how I think about it based on lots of thinking and experimenting with it. And I didn't mean to insult people who have the degree when it means something valuable to them, I'm saying this is my opinion about it as many others did also under this post, every one is entitled to his opinion as you said. I don't agree that statistically people with degrees do better than the self educated people, for different reasons but pay attention also that this comparison is not given an equal opportunity for these two categories, because the biased system favors degrees and gives more opportunities for degreed people, and many of those who are good graduate EEs at their work are good DESPITE finishing their degree and not as a result of it.I say shitty when I'm complaining about this biased system not as a despise to the people who finished their degree, I could have finished it my self and be one of those.I don't have to have good attitude to everything in the world, actually how can you? when you know that there are lots of nonsense going around in society, politics, corruption, crimes, discrimination , etc. and the same with Education and Jobs, there are shitty things about life. period .Now the topic if I should mention that in a job interview is wise or not is another discussion, most people hide and polish stuff in their interviews so they can do it also here. but if the person that is employing me is like me then I probably have better chance expressing my real view.for example if I go for an interview in pay-pal and Peter Thiel is making the interview I probably would have no problem mentioning my view about college because I know it matches his view too.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 08:59:10 pm
content: The only thing I can say is, try to find that gets you motivated!If that really is what feels right and what you want, just go for it.But also, do it for the right reasons.So if that's not following a study at the university, than just go for it that different path.But also be aware of the consequences.Hell, maybe you deiced to even do something totally different than an engineering job.As long as it makes you happy.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:17:26 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 20, 2018, 08:48:32 pmBut you really must know when to keep it to yourself vs. when it's acceptable to let it all out.Just a note about interviews. Many companies use targeted selection. This is completely different than the traditional interview process. It consists of multiple interviews with multiple people (usually 1:1). You will be asked a series of questions each set of which are designed to probe different aspects about your technical skills, interpersonal skills, behaviors etc. One of the most important things about these is to answer them in STAR format (situation, task, action, result). Basically, "I identified this problem, I realized I had to xyz by the end of whenever, so I did these tasks and the result was." The R is critical (and used to be my weak point) - it's the "so what?" part of the answer.If you can, find out about a given employer's interview process. If they use the STAR format, see if there is anyone who could give you an idea of what to expect. Answering STAR questions is not as simple as it may seem and each interviewer will be looking for very specific keywords/actions in your answers. Each answer should not only contain technical content but also behavioral. These kinds of employers not only want to know what you did but how you did it.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:31:49 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on May 20, 2018, 09:17:26 pmI can already tell that these are not the companies he would like to work forLuckily there are also companies who think very different.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:41:38 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 20, 2018, 08:48:32 pmOkay, it's time for a reality check. Let's evaluate where you will be if and when you succeed in moving to the US. You will be a foreign drop-out without a degree, in a country that seems to value pieces of paper a fair bit. Worse still, you dropped out a foreign college, which will likely be valued less than a US college or university. Graduates are parking cars in the US and you're trying to find a proper job. You haven't saved any significant amount of money to start a business and don't have a viable business plan. You also have little to no contacts in relevant fields. You haven't built a portfolio of your own personal projects to mitigate the lack of a degree or work experience. You gripe about a "rigged system" that's not going to change for you or care about your woes. People hiring will inevitably see it as petty complaints of someone who didn't make the cut. You're entitled to your opinion, just like HR folks will feel entitled to throw out your resume because they don't like the attitude, your country of origin or your shoes. You will be competing with US nationals with degrees and possibly a portfolio of personal projects. Let's face it, you're not exactly setting yourself up for success. This is going to be a rough ride.You say you don't agree with people with degrees statistically doing better than the self educated people. Can you show us any numbers that show this is true?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:43:03 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on May 20, 2018, 09:17:26 pmEvery few years there's a new fad in the interviewing business. Numbers show it's all nonsense. People interviewing just a few people and trusting their gut do as well as organisations with convoluted procedures. Unfortunately it's the hoops you will have to jump through if you want to get hired in typically larger organisations. There will obviously be organisations that don't follow the herd, but it tends to be fairly widespread. It certainly makes the potential pool smaller.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:53:08 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on May 20, 2018, 09:41:38 pmThan you need to define the word "better"?Since that's a very vague and subjective word.Is it better in a sense of, knowledge, practical experience, having a secure job, income, or maybe even happiness?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:59:28 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on May 20, 2018, 09:53:08 pmI assumed fairly common and quantifiable definitions of better, like number of people employed as an EE or average or median income. I think it's hard to come up with a metric where people without degrees fare better in the field of EE in the US than those with one. Regardless how I feel about that and whether I think it's fair.Then again I didn't make the claim in the first place, so I'm curious what numbers support the statement.

author: David Chamberlain
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 09:59:57 pm
content: Quote from: Louai on May 20, 2018, 08:48:32 pmGoing to call bullshit on that with facts...https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2014/article/education-level-and-jobs.htmUS Median annual wage 2013:Postsecondary non-degree award : $35,120Bachelor’s degree : $68,190But then the "biased system" is rigged to give more money to people who studied harderTHE MAN is keeping me down, it's all part of a huge government conspiracy to keep the rich people rich and the poor people poorIn case you did not know the purpose of a business is designed to make money not throw it away, if it were true that more people without degrees were better EE's than those with degrees would collectively earn less. Please further explain this conspiracy you talk of.Quote from: Louai on May 20, 2018, 08:48:32 pmSo yeah exactly... I think your best course of action is to become the next Steve Jobs. I mean you came here looking for advice, got plenty of it, yet none seems to resonate as it does not match your view of the world. Here is a bullet proof plan, in bullet point form...- Take Acid,- Wander around India .. something something Zen Buddhism- Completely plagiarize your friends work to get a job at Atari.- Sell illegal phone hacking devices "blue box"- Other stuff- Be billionaire.Your just a faceless person on the internet, no one here can know you or your personal circumstances, so the only way to answer the question 'I quit EE, now what?' is just in general terms. I mentioned on page 1 of this thread that "A degree backed candidate tells me one thing and one thing only - This person is prepared to take shit and get the job done. " - That's a general statement from my personal experience (one that has been repeated by others here) I went on to say "Of course there are always exceptions" - and perhaps your one of them, if so then all power to you. But then if you were you would be giving us the advice... Oh that is whats happening here.... um...

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 10:06:32 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on May 20, 2018, 09:43:03 pmTargeted selection has been widely used for at least 2 decades.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 10:09:12 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on May 20, 2018, 10:06:32 pmHomoeopathy even longer.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 10:36:21 pm
content: Quote from: David Chamberlain on May 20, 2018, 09:59:57 pmfrom your own link;Masters degree United States, $64,510That's less than the bachelors

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 11:44:50 pm
content: That's because most of the master's degree professions are social whereas science/tech/engineering are bachelor's degree. If you limit comparison to one discipline you see another picture. e.g., for mechanical engineering:Quote(Source)

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2018, 12:13:53 am
content: I spent $20K+ and 1500 hours developing a seismic imaging code. When I went to market it, I concluded that marketing costs would be even larger. So I took a job I had been offered.I started the project because I had been laid off. Better to be doing some sort of professional work than sitting around. If nothing else, it gives you a good response to, "What have you been doing since you were laid off?"

author: David Chamberlain
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2018, 12:33:45 am
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on May 20, 2018, 11:44:50 pmYes, the statistics are national averages here are the job titles for states with the highest concentrations by education level.Bachelor's degreeColumbia: public relations specialists, reporters and correspondents, and management analysts.Massachusetts : Microbiologists, biomedical engineers, and systems software developersVirginia : ship engineers, nuclear engineers, and information security analysts.Maryland : budget analysts, atmospheric and space scientists, and middle school special education teachers.Connecticut : actuaries, aerospace engineers, and marketing managers.Master's degreeColumbia: Political scientists, economists, and historiansMassachusetts : industrial-organizational psychologists, statisticians, and healthcare social workers.Vermont : urban and regional planners, nurse midwives, and mental health counselors.Maryland : statisticians, mathematicians, and epidemiologists.DelawareMost of the Bachelor jobs above look like private or private/public sector roles whereas the Masters jobs appear purely more towards government and academic end of the spectrum where lower incomes are the norm.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2018, 12:54:23 am
content: Columbia is a state?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2018, 01:02:08 am
content: I feel we're getting a bit sidetracked here.

author: David Chamberlain
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2018, 01:04:35 am
content: Quote from: IanB on May 21, 2018, 12:54:23 amI think it's called Washington, D.C now, but who can keep up with all these name changes.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2018, 01:14:30 am
content: Fair enough. I honestly never connected Columbia with D.C.(I wasn't being pedantic. I have a list of states beginning with "C" in my mind, and Columbia is not in the list. Washington D.C. didn't even occur to me.)

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2018, 01:24:20 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on May 21, 2018, 01:02:08 amI don't think so. All you have to do to get a degree is to do the tests, past the exams and graduate. It's not a very high bar to get over.If you prefer self study to taught learning that's fine, you can still pass the exams, right? Nobody tells you how you have to learn, they just tell you what you have to learn. If you can't learn what you need to learn you are not qualified, and therefore how can you get a job that needs that knowledge?This is not rocket science.

author: David Chamberlain
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2018, 01:32:18 am
content: Quote from: IanB on May 21, 2018, 01:24:20 amI've often wondered how tired that joke is at SpaceX... 'actually I think you will find...'

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2018, 01:42:48 am
content: Quote from: David Chamberlain on May 21, 2018, 01:32:18 amWell at SpaceX it's probably not brain surgery...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2018, 01:43:52 am
content: Quote from: IanB on May 21, 2018, 01:24:20 amThis reply doesn't seem related to the discussion that was ongoing when I made the comment. That discussion was about what was paid exactly to whom and while somewhat relevant, it's not the main focus of the thread. Going off on a tangent won't help OP too much.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2018, 01:48:29 am
content: But seriously, there are two things you have to do to graduate with a degree:Complete assignments and hand them in on time.Learn the material and pass the tests.Surprise, surprise, these are exactly the things you have to do to survive in the workplace.Completing assignments on time is expected. And passing the tests means you have to deliver stuff that works.If you can't do these things, how can you justify being employed?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2018, 01:51:53 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on May 21, 2018, 01:43:52 amI know. But there's a reason why some people can command higher salaries than others, and it is not "the system" or "innate bias" that is the underlying cause.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2018, 01:52:56 am
content: TO Guy in Israel with Green Card.FR. Ghost of Christmas Past, PhD In Hard Knocks, School of Life ; Masters in Poverty, School of Fast Food Operations ; Lifelong Student...Sub: $hitty Piece of PaperBefore you come over here, go see the Registrar at the supposed $hitty School with the $hitty methods, Pay for and bring at least four (Make that ten!) OFFICIAL sealed and authorized copies of your transcript. Must be sealed in a envelope. Bring a few official copies that are unsealed for imigration etc.. You will be proving the authenticity of, and loosing, those copies to a variety of businesses, and I'm betting, a school or two. Sealed transcripts are requested but never returned, for applying to good jobs. For the rest of your Life...Same goes for medical records, school records, military service records.I'd mutter something about putting an attorney at law on retainer in your old country to help you get paperwork after you leave, but what the heck, fly home often for a mere piece of paper.BTW, One path to education here while young, is to serve in our military, which hastens Citizenship. It will be one of your few options if dreamy plans fail. We simply do not have Israel's super strong tech economy, where "walk-ins" are welcome. The few regions of our nation where a "walk-in" techie with no diploma would have a chance, have some of highest costs of living in the world.. (LA, San Fran, Ny, Boston)Ghost Sends... PS If your not familar with the story of Ebenezer Scrooge, well there is Youtube...I'm trying to help you. You'll need the docs to prove you have math skills to any potential employer. Also for getting a bank loan for whatever venture you choose. (If your spouse cosigns) Your credit hours from a recognized school in the State of Israel will be considered valid after a lengthy verification / evaluation process by American Colleges. We as nation are quite good at accepting a partial education from anywhere in the world. Your GPA will likely be reset to zero by your first new school by tradition.Steve

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2018, 04:17:53 am
content: OP - this might be useful - lots of comments, too.https://lifehacker.com/how-to-get-by-without-a-college-degree-and-when-you-ne-1120356954

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2018, 05:42:55 pm
content: I have three regrets in life. Two involve not spending more time with relatives before they died and the third is not getting my college degree. Now I have two disabilities and live an "alternative lifestyle" that I can't hide and under close scrutiny sometimes people can tell I'm XY not XX and there is discrimination.This would have been so easy to do when I was 20. Most of my family had their BS by the time they were 20. They are now in the top 1% and will never have to worry about money or their kids worry for that matter. I thought I knew better then everyone else just because I made way more money then your average 20 yr old but that's not shit now that I'm in my 30's. Try going to school when you can't drive or walk for more then 30 minutes at a time or have bi weekly doctor appointments. But still I'm doing it I have no choice having medical conditions and needing a bit of plastic surgery on my body is expensive. I used my bitcoin money for a lot of it but 2017 is over.