I thought airport's made lots of $$ (now I'm stumped..) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2018, 03:23:17 pm
content: Lots of data here, but in the end it all seems a big mess. Anyone know if air travel is so bleak everywhere (or just US/UK)?*Edit - Not displaying gate #'s until 45-min before a flight sounds like a Euro-smart way of fighting targeted terrorism.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2018, 05:24:40 pm
content: They say in the video they make about $8.90 per passenger (after taxes) over and above the $19.00 they need to break even. That's almost 50% profit. How is that bleak? That sounds like a good margin. Even smaller airports that don't make as much money directly from airport users would likely be helped by government due to all the collateral benefits and tax opportunities they could reap.[EDIT:].... Ok I watched to the end of the video. They say 2/3rds of airports lose money. Again, government funding it is important for collateral benefits, employment of the local citizens which pay taxes, commercial benefits to local businesses, hotels, tourism, shipping hubs, trucking, etc. The money circles around and comes back from all of the other benefits, the government makes up for it and tax payers are willing to pay a tiny amount for the benefit of having that airport close by.The largest airports privatize in UK because of mass-scale benefits. You need that because the margins are still not great, so having higher traffic, longer-haul flights, more profitable per passenger and many more passengers, etc... that helps increase profit. No small airport can run the same efficiency. Interesting video though.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 06:47:19 am
content: Sydney's Kingsford Smith airport made AUD$1.48 billion in revenue in 2017. Of that, 45% was from aeronautical services, 23% from retail, 15% from car rentals and 11% from car parking. The operating expenditure was AUD$284.5 million.The CEO of Sydney Airport received a fixed salary of AUD$1.8 million, which excludes bonuses, shares etc...Not bad money.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 07:46:21 am
content: Quote from: Cliff Matthews on July 17, 2018, 03:23:17 pmActually it's the fact that the gate areas of a lot of eruo airports are very very small. There is a large common departure area, and then the gates are just big enough to process the passengers, rather than having a waiting area at each gate. Almost all the gates are common use, so there's little "waiting for the next company gate", which is the norm in North America.LGW/Gatwick south of London is a great example with tiny areas by the gates themselves and a large waiting area.

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 03:06:51 pm
content: FWIW, Wendover just posted an add-on video. It seems they missed the Heathrow ghost flights to Cardiff 6 times weekly. If cars could run on Kerosene, that's a lot of wasted fuel..

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 05:11:02 pm
content: Diesel cars can run on kerosene, although some of the injection pumps don't like it. It's not uncommon for airport ground service vehicles to burn jet fuel, the somewhat higher cost vs diesel is offset by the need to stock only one fuel.

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 05:30:15 pm
content: Those wouldn't beat a jet on kerosene, but the Jaguar C-X75 might have (if those dolt's wouldn't have axed 900hp of glory).

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 06:42:20 pm
content: Quote from: Cliff Matthews on July 19, 2018, 05:30:15 pmWith the mirrors and lighting reversed, that car would look almost as good going backwards.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 06:46:54 pm
content: Fancy but not really my cup of tea. I like a cavernous cargo area, nothing I've found quite matches the utility of the classic Volvo turbo wagons. Just enough performance to be fun, with the ability to haul furniture or camping gear. This is going off topic though.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 07:03:48 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 19, 2018, 05:11:02 pmThese days there are actually diesel engine blocks in light aircraft, for example Austroengine's (http://austroengine.at/en/products) which power the DA40/DA42 aircraft, and the Centurion line (http://www.continentaldiesel.com/). Tweaked automotive diesel, running on [widely available at airports] JetA.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 07:17:47 pm
content: Quote from: Cliff Matthews on July 19, 2018, 03:06:51 pmThere are lots of empty planes flying around, and I would expect quite a few to Cardiff, because BA have a big maintenance facility there. There's also a fair-sized rock-star-owned maintenance facility used by other carriers at EGFF/CWLYou see the same thing in the USA, for example Horizon (out of Seattle) maintain DHC8s in Rockford IL, and Alaska send some of their 737s to Greensboro NC

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 07:20:03 pm
content: Quote from: boffin on July 19, 2018, 07:03:48 pmI remember reading about some of those, although at least one that I read about I think was discontinued.The Germans had a few large Diesel engines used in airships and airplanes up into WWII but the idea seemed to be short lived. Seems it took modern technology to get the power to weight ratio of smaller engines reasonable.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 07:50:06 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on July 19, 2018, 06:42:20 pmFor the shape of that car (and from what one can see in the photo), the aerodynamics is probably better going backward too.Think about the better area dynamics for a tear-drop shape going side ways. The larger end being the front and smaller end being the back will reduce drag quite a bit.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 08:04:17 pm
content: Quote from: Cliff Matthews on July 17, 2018, 03:23:17 pmImho, it doesn't matter if an airport is profitable or not if they can get money from the state. I'd say this only makes things worse as they have no motivation to improve. At the end I wouldn't call them non-profitable. Just they charge not only passengers, but tax payers as well.TBH I believe big busy airports are a scam. I'd assume such airport have high level of automation and can optimize their cost (comparing to smaller airport). In practice they charge more. There are "low cost" smaller airports that, unfortunately, far from main locations, but have much better prices. Like, twice cheaper on the same destinations (my experience with Charles De Gaulle and Beauvais).PS I'm no expert in this stuff. Can be wrong.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 11:17:29 pm
content: One thing about the big busy airports is that they tend to be located in big busy areas where property is extremely expensive and cost of living is high. This means virtually all of their costs are high relative to smaller airports in less populated areas.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2018, 01:56:46 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 19, 2018, 11:17:29 pm"...big busy airports..."In my estimation, the utilization rate is probably the most significant factor. I've been to many tiny municipal air ports serving only regional areas. They are quiet most of the day except for the small burst of people when one of the few flights for the day arrived or about to depart. With only a few hundred daily passengers, it would be rather hard for them to break even let alone make a profit.Antwerp was one airport I used to frequent some years ago, so I check their departures for today - 10 flights today. It would be hard for them to make much money, so profit would be small if it is there at all. But, small airports have their pluses, it is always easy to pick-up or drop-off.Troubling thing with airport planning is: utilization depends on many other things not in the control of the airport or even local people/business (such as shifting air-line agreements, route change, etc.). Alaska was a heavily used airport as stop-over between USA and Asia. Then when Russia and China changed and allowed fly-over in their air space, a stop-over became less necessary. I recall reading an article about the significant drop in utilization. The busiest airport in the USA was Chicago at one time, now it is number 2 and number 1 is Atlanta. As routes shift, a big busy airport can become just a big white elephant sucking money while giving little benefit to the local people living near by.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2018, 03:34:30 am
content: The Alaska airports might be a white elephant, but even though it has fallen to number 2 in traffic the Chicago airport is not a white elephant. Any more than any of the San Francisco bay area airports are white elephants even though they are far down the traffic list. Businesses locate for many reasons, but one major one is transportation access. Major hub cities in the US (and AFAIK the world) like LA, Denver, Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas-Ft. Worth and others benefit from the easy and frequent connections.I can't say which is the chicken and which the egg here, the businesses or the airports, but they are clearly mutually supporting.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2018, 06:44:10 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on July 20, 2018, 01:56:46 amEBAW/ANR Antwerp Intl Airport:2007 passengers 174,858 cargo 531t2017 passengers 273,130 cargo 2,203tThat's +56% and +314% in ten yearsSeems like they're going in the right direction, although it's never going to get far with very short runways (longest is 1500m) you're never going to see much traffic there. This limits it to prop traffic only (perhaps the smallest of jets), and is fighting against airports within a short distance (<100km) that handle millions or tens of millions of passengers (BRU,CRL,AMS)

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 02:44:44 am
content: Quote from: boffin on July 20, 2018, 06:44:10 amGood to know it is healthy! Antwerp airport is small but rather charming. I'd be sad if it had gone kaput.