preserve electronic devices - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: classicsamus87
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2020, 07:15:26 pm
content: I have electronic handheld console devices and video game cartridges, what tips to preserve these devices?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2020, 08:31:52 pm
content: Preserve while still using them occasionally or preserve in long term storage?

author: classicsamus87
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2020, 09:27:09 pm
content: preserve in long term storage

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2020, 10:00:30 pm
content: I'd say to try and keep moisture away as much as possible. But some parts (like electrolytics) will dry out anyway so those will need replacing. Having full schematics and digital copies of every programmable device will also help.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2020, 10:34:00 pm
content: The ideal would be to seal them up in a bag with dry nitrogen. But since most of us don't have access to pure nitrogen, dry air is the next best.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2020, 11:18:03 pm
content: Dry and constant temperature, preferably a relatively low constant temperature like 10C would be ideal. But truly dry requires a hermetic package which is hard. If the package is not hermetic moisture will diffuse in regardless of the initial fill, and surprisingly quickly. Use of desiccant can grab the water as it comes in and delay the inevitable. If you know the leak rate of your container you can calculate the amount of desiccant needed for a given storage interval. If you don't know the leak rate the answer is to put lots of desiccant in and use a kind that changes color when it saturates. You then need to look periodically and change the desiccant as required. An initial fill with nitrogen can help with removing moisture absorbed into the game surfaces, but does little or nothing to keep water out long term.Having said all that, storing these things in the closet of a climate controlled living space has kept these things in good shape for two or three decades as long as the climate is not too damp. If your long storage is an unheated garage or warehouse you can probably get fairly good results packing it like a careful shipper would. Inner polybag taped carefully closed. Put another bag around the inner one in a belt and suspenders approach. Then place this package in an outer box that is ten or so centimeters bigger in each dimension than the inner package and fill the space between with plastic peanuts, foam, bubble wrap or other insulation. This will keep the game box temperature relatively constant (at least minimize diurnal variations) and avoid condensation on game surfaces.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2020, 11:24:21 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on October 24, 2020, 10:34:00 pmMany of us have a vacuum sealer in the kitchen, which will get a lot of the air out, and corrosion is then limited to what the oxygen inside the device can do. However, things like plastics may not need atmospheric oxygen to degrade.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2020, 11:31:06 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on October 24, 2020, 10:34:00 pmCans of inert gas (argon) are cheaply available for preserving oil paints and other materials degraded by oxygen. The trick is how to inject the gas, displacing air, and seal it in quickly. A paint can with a lid is straightforward, but an electronic device in a bag is not.Furthermore most bags are not good vapor barriers. Specially treated mylar is a vapor barrier, but only when it is heat-sealed.Bags infused with corrosion inhibitors are also available and would be most effective for preventing (moisture-caused) corrosion. But sealing up the device will actually make leakage-caused corrosion (from batteries, for example) more severe as there will be no atmospheric CO2 to neutralize them.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2020, 11:58:22 pm
content: If used, Make sure that all batteries are removed. Rechargeable or not.

author: classicsamus87
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2020, 12:20:01 am
content: I with some 0.12mm ziplock bags and put silica gel inside these bags but the moisture gradually gets into the bag and the sachets become saturated, I need a bag on aliexpress 100% airtight so as not to get moisture but it is very difficult to find

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2020, 02:30:00 am
content: put deoxit on the terminals and put it in a box and forget about it. Moisture proof box with silica gel is as far as I would ever go.

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2020, 05:54:59 am
content: If you're going as far as adding silica gel packets, you can also add hand-warmers as an oxygen absorber. They are iron powder, salt, and vermiculite, so in a dry environment, shouldnt be emitting anything nasty. That will give you a dry, reduced oxygen environment with readily available products, without having to deal with trying to get a good gas purge, or handling a gas cylinder.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2020, 11:42:04 am
content: Entropy comes in many forms.Dust - Looks bad, can also be corrosive.Moisture - corrosion.Bugs - they chew, pee and poop, plus leave carcasses. All destructive, often corrosive. Often they really like making homes in electronics.Large, thick ziplock plastic bags and sealed containers are good against these. Especially if moisture absorbing packs included.In Oz stores Coles & Woolies) there's a brand 'Hercules' with a large size 27 x 33 cm and double ziplock. Packs of 40. I use a lot of these, especially to preserve old manuals.Light - discolors plastics, causes some materials to decay. Store in cupboards, boxes, etc.Some plastics go brown with age, due to included Bromine flame retardants. This can be reversed; look up 'retrobright'.Air - oxidation, especially of contacts made of anything but gold.Nothing you can do about this, unless you can arrange long term storage in dry nitrogen or argon. Difficult.Paper:Embrittlement and yellowing of cheap acid paper. Not much can be done to stop this.Mildew - keep as dry as possible, stable cool temp. Bagged.Silverfish - Bagged or boxed, plus sprinkle camphor flakes in the containers.Batteries - the _worst_ destroyers of old electronics. Especially check for built-in nicads and other small soldered-in batteries.All batteries MUST be removed from anything to be stored long term.Leaking nicads especially can irreparably destroy all electronics within a large radius.Tin whiskers - anything tin plated (with no lead alloyed in) will grow microscopic 'whiskers' of tin, that can short out and damage electronics. Slow but deadly. Inspect before powering, brush off. If on the inside of components - tough luck.Depolymerization. Rubber parts, feet, and 'grippy' surface coatings turning to sticky liquid gunk, plastics going brittle, etc. VERY hard to remove. The only defense is to check items now and then, and completely remove any rubber parts showing signs of going tacky.Rubber belts and rollers. You're going to have to replace them, repeatedly in the long term. Find a supplier.Urethane foam. Commonly used as air filters, sound absorbing and anti-vibration pads. This stuff disintegrates into tacky, corrosive gunk that gets all through equipment. Remove on sight, clean all residue.Where used in storage boxes to cushion expensive, delicate test gear, replace ASAP with non-decaying foam such as polyethylene. Nothing worse than opening such a box to find some priceless precision metal device corroded to hell.Flexible plastics losing their volatile plasticiser substances and going brittle.Cables especially. Anything where thin plastic is used as a hinge.Hard plastics kept under tension. Will always crack eventually, even if glass fibre reinforced. Self tapping screws in plastic mounting posts for example. Also plastic clips used to retain clip-on covers.Plasticiser compounds diffusing out of one substance, and damaging nearby incompatible substances. For eg, flexible PVC cables pressed against some kinds of hard molded plastics, will 'melt' indents into the plastic.Also with toner-based photocopies in PVC binders, the PVC plasticisers will make the toner melt and adhere to facing pages and the binder.Grease, on moving parts. Often hardens with age. Eg old floppy disk drive mechanisms, pot shafts, etc.Can be very difficult to remove once it's really hard. Also may be corrosive.Remove with IPA, acetone or other solvents. Experiment. Disassembly may be required. Sometimes only mechanical scraping works.Replace with non-hardening Lithium soap or synthetic grease types. Sometimes the right viscosity matters.Some component types are just plain doomed.Carbon composition resistors all drift high with age, going out of tolerance. Faster if operating hot.Filament light bulbs (eg indicators, spinner knob sensors, etc) just plain always fail.Membrane keys - don't have long lives.Silicone rubber pad keys - don't get oils on these. Oil diffuses through the rubber, gets into the conductive pad underneath, and makes it non-conductive. Can sometimes be restored by soaking in solvents.LEDs fade with age.RIFA mains-rated caps - the outer encapsulation shrinks and cracks, lets moisture into the plastic metalised film, under voltage the film breaks down and arcs. Result - a lot of very stinky, gunky smoke that condenses on surrounding parts and is hell to clean off.Remove and replace all RIFA mains caps on sight.Electrolytic caps. They all fail eventually. Only the duration varies. For cheap or underrated ones, a few years. Good ones not stressed, can last decades.Wet foil tantalum caps with non-ceramic seals - all fail eventually.Memory devices using charge retention in cells. eg EPROMS, flash memory... data retention time is not forever, but varies a lot between device types and manufacture. All should be read out and archived if at all possible.One-time programmable devices - gate arrays, etc. Especially fuse link types. They can randomly fail. But many are not readable, or have read protection enabled. Read if possible, or try to obtain source code, spare blanks and suitable programming device. But accept that devices using a lot of custom programmed devices are going to die unrepairable eventually.Non-volatile memory of the static RAM plus encapsulated battery kind, Dallas, etc - arrgh. Guaranteed fail in a decade or two. There are hacks online for cutting down into these and attaching new external battery. Good luck. Fortunately their contents can usually be read out in a device programmer.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2020, 02:33:27 pm
content: Thanks for your very detailed explanation.I have experienced depolimerization. It was a big mystery to me until you explained it above.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2020, 02:34:12 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on October 25, 2020, 11:42:04 amGreat summary. Good advice for anyone truly serious about long term preservation.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2020, 03:41:55 pm
content: Keep cables separate from devices, do not wrap around plastic cases , as was mentioned above they may cause plastic to melt chemically if they touch it for prolonged time.Store stuff in a dark storage to reduce plastic yellowing.I'd still not store stuff for years hermetically sealed, i'd let it vent once a year at least, things may get stinky.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2020, 04:19:40 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 25, 2020, 03:41:55 pmWhile I have my doubts as to the origination of the thread (and expect some plastic bag advert to show up at some time), there is some good information here and I wanted to show that the point quoted is accurate.No, I did not use it as a holder for a soldering iron...I only wrapped a big heavy power cord around it and stored it that way for ~ 30-35 years. If seeing is believing, you can rest assured that the quoted tip can be believed.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2020, 04:52:35 pm
content: put them in a stainless steel box, weld it shut and encase that in a few cubic meters of concrete. bury 6ft deep. together with all other 'old junk'.Better tip : recycle them.Sorry, couldn't resist. I don't understand this concept of wanting to keep old obsolete stuff. if i look in my neighbourhood many people have an old carcass of an old 69 chevy pickup truck or a 1953 cheville special that is rusted out , broken windows, motor completely bust. but they hang on to it for sentimental values and sit next to it, beer in hand , dreaming of restoring it.. then they pass away and the descendants have to deal with the cleanup. Their garage is full of old clothes that don't fit, old tv's they keep for .. well what ?Give it up. it has had its life. let it go.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2020, 09:52:46 pm
content: DepolimerizationWelcome to the tacky world of cassette deck drive belts.In martime atmospheres, salt crystals can spontaneously grow and pit metal surfaces. Gadgets confined to theman shedwill culture mold as fungal spores thrive on damp dust and other other organic coatings. Biology is what does for camera lenses and antique cellulose films. Termites love reverse engineering wooden wireless cases, and man sheds. Animal glues go nasty and might be harbouring the next pandemic. Random screwdriverexpertsin man sheds can cause irreparable damage to delicate electrical and mechanical parts. Resin bonded PCBs seem to dry out, becoming brittle and delaminate the copper tracks. Polystyrene packaging can yellow the plastic of your beloved antique games machine. Bakelite is technically a hazardous material (phenol-formaldehyde), and should be marked as such to comply with future health and safety hysteria. Really, other than making everything from quartz and gold, there's not a lot of our stuff that's future proof

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2020, 10:35:30 pm
content: One solution that has worked for me, which I didn't see mentioned here, is to inspect and exercise the item periodically. Electronic 'cobwebs' invade unused equipment eventually. Chemical migration, general corrosion, outgassing, and other inevitable evils can be interrupted in their progress if the equipment is taken out of storage periodically and used for a while, brought up to operating temperature, and then after cooling stored again.One benefit of this approach is that if a problem appears it can be dealt with before it progresses to the point of permanent damage.

author: classicsamus87
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2020, 11:51:37 am
content: antistatic bag is considered a hermetic bag that does not let moisture enter it? I ask this because I bought units of ziplock bag and in all the moisture ends up getting in and this compromises the preservation of electronic devicesziplock has 0.012mm thickness

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2020, 01:30:36 pm
content: Quote from: classicsamus87 on October 28, 2020, 11:51:37 amIt depends what kind of antistatic bag you mean. The pink ones offer very limited moisture protection. The shiny dark grey ones can keep moisture out for years. I'm not sure about a zip lock one. I don't know how well the zip itself seals. However, the dark grey ones, heat sealed, work very well. Its not really a matter of the thickness of the plastic. Its the type. The good heat sealed vacuum packing bags are usually a laminate of at least two plastics - one does the heat sealing well (and is food safe, if the bags were made for that use), and one is a really effective moisture barrier.

author: classicsamus87
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2020, 03:04:43 pm
content: could you show me good aliexpress bags to store electronics and protect completely from moisture? if you have a zip it's better I don't have a vacuum machine I always thought about thickness

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2020, 03:24:05 pm
content: For general care of both equipment and property I run dehumidifiers on timers. Now that it's getting drier because of winter I'm setting the timers back from maybe 4 hours/day to 2 hours/day.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2020, 05:02:35 pm
content: Quote from: classicsamus87 on October 28, 2020, 03:04:43 pmI have given this matter a great deal of thought and have concluded that .....You gotta put the Lime in the Coconut...there is no choice in this matter. If you want to preserve ANYTHING...youmustput the lime in the coconut, dammit!https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/help-buy-ziplock-aliexpress-for-protect-my-electronics.159679/https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/question-ziplock-silica-gel-humidity.159718/https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/questions-preserve-store-ssd-many-years.159713/https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/preserve-electronic-devices.160120/and here...and other places.... ad nauseam.*sigh* (I know I should be a better person but I'm really not).

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 10:24:08 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 25, 2020, 04:52:35 pmthe problem is that its like 200 hours of cosmetic work and many more hours to replace the parts.. it needs to be moisture protected then you can fix itI think people eventually pick up a buffer and think 'oh no' when a panel disintegrates lol

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 03:01:10 pm
content: Some electronic devices were made to last in the first place.This is a 400Hz bandpass filter... from 1958! - It still meets its specification and I am about to clean it up and fit some BNC connectors to it so it can be put to use.

author: classicsamus87
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 08:25:13 pm
content: please i need good ziplock bag not enter humidity

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 09:26:53 pm
content: Quote from: classicsamus87 on November 10, 2020, 08:25:13 pmThe kind of ziplock bag with a port on it, so you can suck out the air, stay deflated for a very long time. They must be pretty good at keeping out moisture.

author: classicsamus87
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 09:38:07 pm
content: I bought several transparent ziplock bag and in all the moisture comes

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 11:54:53 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 10, 2020, 09:26:53 pmAverage partial pressure of water in the atmosphere is quite low at normal storage temperatures. On the order of 0.04 atmosphere. You won't notice that the bag has filled with water vapor at equilibrium to the environment. But that is the end state when diffusion has taken over. The kind of measure you are describing is leak rate. I don't know what "very long time" means to you. Someone who is trying to save something for collector value probably wants to store these things for 10 to 50 years. I wouldn't bet on those bags having a low enough leak rate to support those durations. The ones I am familiar with are used for clothes storage and food storage. Both applications that don't need much more than a couple of years.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2020, 12:58:58 am
content: Use Mylar bags for much lower permeability.

author: classicsamus87
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2020, 10:26:24 am
content: Is this mylar zip bag the best and does it not let moisture in?https://pt.aliexpress.com/item/32923355461.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.40417d86I4Vedp&algo_pvid=d6aa9da5-c15e-4de9-8d0c-18be3f746935&algo_expid=d6aa9da5-c15e-4de9-8d0c-18be3f746935-0&btsid=0bb0623116050902765072438ee911&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2020, 03:14:36 pm
content: Everything lets moisture in if you wait long enough, unless you go to extremes like sealed metal or glass vessels.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2020, 03:33:02 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on November 10, 2020, 11:54:53 pmI'm judging by things like a wedding dress I have seen, which had been sealed in one of those bags for about 30 years, and so little air had seeped in that it was still rigid. Air gets in more easily than moisture. I think the biggest problem with these things is its hard to know if the seal has closed properly. You really need to check in the first few week if the bag shows any signs of expansion.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2020, 04:46:49 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 11, 2020, 03:33:02 pmI'm impressed. As I said, I wouldn't have bet on that result. My personal experience has been about a quarter of them last more than a year. Maybe I got a bad batch, or the wrong brand, or am not careful enough to keep the ZIP-LOC faces clean or ..... My sample size is small, but because of the poor results I wasn't encouraged to try more.Air gets in easier than water by the diffusion path. For leakage paths there is no meaningful difference.

author: classicsamus87
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2020, 02:55:05 pm
content: Honestly I don't know what type of ziplock bag I should choose but I don't have a vacuum machine and the zip is interesting and easy to open but it can't get in moisture

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2020, 01:35:32 am
content: The plastic that a zip-loc bag is made of, is not a perfect impermeable membrane.I found out the hard way, filling a ziploc with a mixture of ethanol and cedar oil to rejuvenate some closet cedar "smell fresh" blocks... The liquid was able to sweat through the bag! Good thing I was paranoid and had the whole thing in a glass bowl...

author: classicsamus87
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2020, 01:03:11 pm
content: Which ziplock bag material is waterproof? I need to buy ziplock that does not enter moisture

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2020, 04:02:52 pm
content: Quote from: classicsamus87 on November 27, 2020, 01:03:11 pmThe mylar bags that electronic components are often shipped in is probably as good as it gets?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2020, 05:06:45 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on November 27, 2020, 04:02:52 pmThe mylar ones work well. If you want to use food grade ziplock bags, because they are so widely available, you need to look for the laminated ones. They have an inner layer of a plastic which is consider food safe but is somewhat permeable, and an outer layer of a plastic which is impermeable. The food safety issue usually revolves around fats, in things like cheese, being able to slowly leach polymerizers out of some types of plastic.