Delete Delete Delete - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: The_Almighty_Bacon_Lord
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2016, 10:15:11 pm
content: Delete Delete Delete

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2016, 10:29:30 pm
content: Those fancy shiny graphic motherboard "specs" are ALWAYS a load of crap...

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2016, 10:42:40 pm
content: There is something to it, I remember Gigabyte had problems in a past in certain regions of the world, they had a much higher percentage of motherboards being returned due to shorts and all those regions had in common higher humidity.They changed the pcb material and the number of returns went down.They call it Ultra Durable :http://www.gigabyte.com/MicroSite/297/images/overview.htmlorhttp://hwbot.org/news/7038_gigabyte_claims_world_no_1_spot_for_motherboard_durability

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2016, 10:54:14 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on July 10, 2016, 10:42:40 pmHeh, seems to them "cool" means a higher average temperatureTo be fair I'm now typing this on one of their UltraDurable3 mobos, and have nothing to hold up against it. It's 5.5 years old, has been run for about 4 years daily, always with a significant overclock and is still going strong without much maintenance.But yeah, these gimmicky marketing graphics and specs that often don't mean a thing...

author: The_Almighty_Bacon_Lord
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2016, 11:04:00 pm
content: Delete Delete Delete

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2016, 11:13:55 pm
content: Wouldn't it also make the board less flexible and prone to breakage for example when you're inserting I/O cards?

author: george.b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2016, 11:17:25 pm
content: Isn't it all epoxied up, though?

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 01:10:10 am
content: Quote from: george.b on July 10, 2016, 11:17:25 pmEpoxy is hydroscopic!Edit: Err, I mean hygroscopic. I always want to spell it hydro-, because I think, "It absorbs water," when in reality it's hygro- because it absorbs moisture.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 01:26:32 am
content: Quote from: timb on July 11, 2016, 01:10:10 amIt is? Not that I disbelieve you, but can you give some references?Considering that many of the tracks on motherboards are required to maintain very tight impedance specs, perhaps when motherboards fail from humidity it isn't 'shorts', but rather things like the high speed low pincount buses between CPU and Northbridge going out of spec due to moisture absorbtion? So maybe there _is_ something to the idea of moisture-resistant PCB fiberglass.I'd seen the 'Ultra Durable' motherboard advertising last time I visited MSY to buy something. Wondered what that was all about or if it was just marketing department bullshit.

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 01:59:34 am
content: If i see Ultra Durable on a motherboard i would think it will stay in 1 piece and work if i smash it into someone.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 02:01:11 am
content: Quote from: System Error Message on July 11, 2016, 01:59:34 amSee, that's why your username.

author: george.b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 02:05:08 am
content: Quote from: timb on July 11, 2016, 01:10:10 amBut, but...http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1644697.pdfThat says FR-4 has 0.1% (by weight, I suppose?) moisture absorption...

author: encryptededdy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 02:09:27 am
content: A lot of the motherboard advertising is just a case of marketing taking a (legitimate) feature / advantage developed by engineers and completely overselling it.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 02:15:30 am
content: Yep, despite what wiki says, pcbs are hygroscopic; you can find moisture absorption ratings and corresponding electrical property changes in higher quality datasheetsAlso "high density fiberglass" is likely in reference to the glass weave type, which there are many:http://www.ieca-inc.com/images/Tutorial_-_Understanding_The_PCB_Laminate_and_Prepreg_Process.pdf

author: Keicar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 03:18:05 am
content: When dealing with very high impedance circuits, like a condenser microphone, moisture absorption by the PCB material might well be significant, hence the use of Teflon standoffs and such. In a PC motherboard, I'm yet to be convinced.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 03:33:41 am
content: Quote from: encryptededdy on July 11, 2016, 02:09:27 amIt's everywhere.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 04:46:07 am
content: Quote from: timb on July 11, 2016, 01:10:10 amReally? I'd have thought the opposite. Epoxies are used to seal up automotive components to protect them from the elements.

author: jh15
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 04:52:56 am
content: Beware my 2008 Honda Element then...

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 05:36:55 am
content: How the board is "woven" contributes to more than mechanical properties. See:https://www.altera.com/en_US/pdfs/literature/an/an613.pdfpage 6.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 05:47:36 am
content: Quote from: daqq on July 11, 2016, 05:36:55 am"The tighter the weave netting, the more uniform the dielectric constant. Loose weaves resulting in less uniform dielectric constants in the PCB laminate can cause trace impedance variations and propagation skews in tightly matched signals, such as differential pairs that directly reference the weave. For example, on a sparse weaving such as glass style 106, one leg of the differential pair may be routed directly over a fiber weave while the other leg is routed between the fiber weaves. This results in a different?rfor each leg of the differential channel."Interesting.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 07:26:37 am
content: This is why you buy motherboards with build in dehumidifier.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 07:56:42 am
content: I recall MSI one having a line of MOBOs that had "military grade components" written on the box. Bullshit as you may expect.Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 10:22:05 am
content: The transition to solid polymer electrolytics instead of traditional wet ones was certainly overhyped, but did bring some benefits.http://www.gigabyte.com/webpage/8/article_02_all_solid.htm

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 10:46:19 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on July 11, 2016, 01:26:32 amOr, It could perhaps be an issue of overall capacitance increasing as the board absorbs tiny amounts of water. This could cause major problems when talking about controlled impedance traces handling signals switching at such high speeds.Maybe a combination of this and several other aforementioned factors.Quote from: george.b on July 11, 2016, 02:05:08 amWell, are we talking about a single/double layer board, or a 4-8+ layer high speed motherboard? Remember, multilayer boards use prepreg (which is essentially glass fiber pre-impregnated with an epoxy resin) to laminate the layers together. It adds up.Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on July 11, 2016, 02:15:30 amExactly. Linear Technolgy has some good empirical data on this subject. They have an app note on how to apply voltage references and they show how an FR-4 PCB will warp a tiny amount when exposed to humidity. Enough to stress an SMD package, causing hundreds of uV worth of change in the reference's output!Quote from: Halcyon on July 11, 2016, 04:46:07 amAre you sure you're not thinking of conformal coating? Which is a waterproof coating sprayed on a PCB. There's also potting compound, which isn't epoxy either.Maybe it's different type of epoxy? (The more common epoxy resins is actually slightly conductive, which is why it's not a good idea to use it for potting circuits. It will become more conductive as the humidity increases; further proof it's hygroscopic!)There are quite a few types of epoxy for many industrial uses.Also, keep in mind, just because it absorbs moisture, doesn't mean it leaks or anything. It's not like it's a fine mesh or something. It just expands slightly as it absorbs moisture from the air.Finally, fiberglass is a good PCB material, but it's not perfect! Otherwise we wouldn't need better types, like Rodgers, etc.

author: aandrew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 01:20:16 pm
content: The material composition can absolutely have an effect on characteristic impedance which might affect the durability due to different trace geometry, but I suspect that is a very very marginal difference and overall doubt that's a factor in a consumer motherboard. I can't comment on whether that makes it more durable or not.I have hadverygood success with Gigabyte Ultra Durable motherboards. I think it has nothing to do with the laminate used and everything to do with better overall construction including conservative POL supply design, more/better heatsinking and heavy copper pours. My workstation is now 6 years old and has never given me a moment's problem due to hardware (GA-X58A-UD3R, i7-960/24GB RAM). I am not particularly gentle with my electronics but I do try to make sure the power is clean (overspecc'd power supply from reputable manufacturer) and they're sufficiently cooled. That said, I've been running with the stock Intel fan. I don't buy the line that OEM fans/heatsinks are crap.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 03:50:54 pm
content: Quote from: aandrew on July 11, 2016, 01:20:16 pmSame here, just with an UD5 Rev2 instead of UD3R.Quote from: aandrew on July 11, 2016, 01:20:16 pmThey're OK, just a bit loud and I doubt it'd be enough for my 4GHz overclock :\

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 08:50:44 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 11, 2016, 07:26:37 amIts a feature of Asrock mobos:http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/318986-30-asrock-trollingIt sounds like during sleep mode it will take some power allowing the board to heat a little and drive off some humidity.I think in the long run a gigabyte board is would be cheaper, 5W is ~$5 per year of electricity.