The NIST is gone - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 11:32:39 am
content: Just noticed this while I was checking something...Fromhttp://www.nist.gov/:Quote

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 11:36:52 am
content: I apologize on behalf of my idiotic, immature government, since they are not capable of doing it for themselves.

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 11:58:49 am
content: Yea, the NASA is also down, as are a lot of other things over there. From what i have read, 800,000 government workers are on unpaid "hollidays" now. They also took their government phones and stuff away, force them to no longer use the government web-based accesses, etc.Just bizzare...Greetings,ChrisEdit: Of course the military can still pursue their silly wargames abroad. Go figure...

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 12:08:19 pm
content: It is all in the name of balancing the books.Option 1) Make more stuff and export it.Option 2) Print (quantitative easing) more money. Or as is done these days add an extra trillion or two on to the government's bank balance.Option 3) Shut up shop.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 12:37:30 pm
content: Quote from: mamalala on October 02, 2013, 11:58:49 amNaturally. Even more predictable is that the Congressdicks responsible still get paid.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 12:46:25 pm
content: From the outside it looks a lot more like a simulation/faking of a shutdown than a real shutdown. E.g. instead of really shutting the government employee's telephones down they just get told they aren't allowed to use them.You call that a shutdown?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 12:47:24 pm
content: Well yeah, exactly. It's just causing as much harm as possible to blackmail the other side into giving them what they want. Dicks...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 12:48:31 pm
content: Quote from: mamalala on October 02, 2013, 11:58:49 amIn over 700 military bases in over 150 countries around the world, at the cost of several hundred billion (not including wars etc)And they wonder why they can't afford universal health care

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 12:50:44 pm
content: But those areessential! We have to assert our place as a superpower! We don't need sick poor people, though...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 12:51:21 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 02, 2013, 12:37:30 pmDoesn't matter if they stopped it, the average worth of a congress member is $11M:http://www.opensecrets.org/pfds/averages.php

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 12:53:49 pm
content: Huh. That's less than I'd have thought.It's still a sign of their immense selfishness that they would continue to receive pay. Sure, they can survive just fine on what they have. But howdarethey take even more while the rest of the government employees struggle to put food on their tables?

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 01:17:50 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 02, 2013, 12:53:49 pmIt surely is messed up. Reminds me of our own politicians. Each time they decide to pay themselves more money, they justify it with the job being so hard, demanding so much time, etc. But somehow they have still enough time to have anpther job in some comapnies management, give speeches for money, etc. If the job is that hard and time consuming, one would think that there is no time left to do any other job(s) outside of politics....In case of the current situation in the US, from what i have heard (may be wrong), it really looks like some childs fighting in the sandbox over a shovel. They blocked to reach a decission because they don't like Obama's health care plans. Because of that single dispute they jeopardize the whole government. And soon they have to decide on the matter of debt stuffs. if they can't agree there either, they will be completely without any money. Well, at least officially.That's just stupid, IMHO.Greetings,Chris

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 01:23:28 pm
content: Heh, now I know why a surprising number of people avoided positions at NIST... They've been trying to avoid the American government.

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 01:35:02 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 02, 2013, 12:48:31 pmThey can, they just choose not to have it.CNN just provided the relevant figures. 17% of the US GDP is used on healthcare, compared to at most 11-12% in other developed countries with universal healthcare. For instance Denmark is right around 10% of GDP. So to first order the US could save 5% of GDP by adopting some form of universal healthcare scheme.

author: dfmischler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 01:35:52 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 02, 2013, 12:50:44 pmYou forgot:It would be unmanly to pull out!

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 01:40:36 pm
content: Well, I am afraid, what will happen to USA. They can run out of money...It's the homeland of transistors and oscilloscopes...

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 01:58:40 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on October 02, 2013, 01:40:36 pmHmm, Julius Edgar Lilienfeld, born in Lemberg, invented the FET in and patented it in 1925 in Canada. The US patent followed in 1926. When he was born, his country belonged to Austria. So, it's an European invention, so to say.As far as CRT based oscilloscopes go, from what i know they were a british design in the 1930's, whereas that company was later bought by the US company Raytheon.Greetings,Chris

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 02:00:55 pm
content: We are the homeland ofalluseful inventions. You guys can have the stupid ones like books and art.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 02:11:28 pm
content: I'm here in Houston, people are pretty damn pissed right now. NASA employees in space center Houston have been furloughed. Out of a site of 4000 employees, over 3500 have been furloughed, most contractors are out of work, and the only people remaining are around 100 ISS support staff. Yep, in a Republican area, anti-GOP sentiment is running high.P.SI apologize for the idiotic, bat shit crazy actions of the government.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 02:19:16 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on October 02, 2013, 01:42:30 pmThere is a chance you lose that bet. The impact of a US foreign base on the locals is not really always positive. E.g. US forces try to import as much "made in America" supplies from the US as possible, typically tax free. I.e. the local economy sees increased hassle with fright traffic. They run their own shopping chain PX/BX, so US personal doesn't have to eat local, foreign food. Eating foreign food is probably illegal or unamerican, or both.There is also the issue of crimes, and in general misbehavior of members of the armed US forces when it comes to dealing with the locals. Drunken solders are a problem. And real crimes get swept under the carpet by using the extraterritorial status of US bases. And the US military as such also likes to violate local laws and regulations, like building regulations, environment protection regulations, firearm regulations, traffic regulations or air traffic regulations.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 02:19:16 pm
content: Quote from: echen1024 on October 02, 2013, 02:11:28 pmI've gotten the feeling this has been their goal for a long time, but they've been failing miserably. They may finally have succeeded in their efforts to make their supporters hate them

author: Jon Chandler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 02:21:27 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyGringo on October 02, 2013, 02:01:26 pm800,000 civil servants have been laid off without pay. Some 200,000 in"critical jobs" have been ordered to work without pay for the duration of the shutdown. I know people who were on leave, but have been ordered back to work without pay.The national parks and museums, including the Smithsonian Institute, are shut down.The last shutdown 17 years ago cost 1.5billiondollars.The Congress is being held hostage by a bunch of treasonous zealots over something that has nothing to do with the budget. These zealots want to cancel a law that was passed by both Houses of Congress, signed into law by The President of The United States of America and upheld by The Supreme Count. Furthermore, the candidate running on a platform of abolishing The Affordable Care Act LOST THE ELECTION.The US is one of the few major countries that does not have universal healthcare. Hospitals are required to provide at least some degree of care to people who can't afford it. In the case of one woman I know who fell and broke her arm, this care DID NOT include putting a cast on her broken arm nor providing pain killers which she couldn't afford to buy! Yet the half-assed care provided to people who can't afford it COSTS MORE than it would to provide everyone insurance with subsidies so that everyone can afford it.I am not proud to be an American this day.Sorry for the rant but this pisses me off.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 02:25:49 pm
content: From where I sit it looks for all the world like good old fashioned rascism, the president is the wrong colour for many in the opposition, and health care is just a smokescreen they have been against him from the start.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 02:29:05 pm
content: From where I sit it looks like you are right.

author: JohnnyGringo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 03:16:40 pm
content: Quote from: Jon Chandler on October 02, 2013, 02:21:27 pmI wonder if they will be eligible for unemployment insurance?

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 03:26:41 pm
content: Quote from: ElectroIrradiator on October 02, 2013, 01:35:02 pmWould you want to be one of those affected by the 5% cut?We don't have to wait for heart surgery or joint replacement as those who live in the universal healthcare countries.

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 03:41:36 pm
content: Quote from: JoeO on October 02, 2013, 03:26:41 pmI was correcting a factual mistake on the part of Dave. You guys can run your country any way you like, as far as I am concerned, as long as you don't wreck the planet for the rest of us in the process.Happy 'see political controversy in every sentence' Wednesday. I'm not taking the bait.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 03:42:19 pm
content: There is still private health care in most countries it is just that for the public health care costs are regulated it's the care providing corporations in the US that don't want any regulation as they are milking the insurance companies at present.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 03:48:52 pm
content: Quote from: JoeO on October 02, 2013, 03:26:41 pmA rather interesting group of ailments you have chosen, both of which can be attributed to obesity, which in large part is preventable.

author: tehmeme
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 03:55:33 pm
content: Quote from: JoeO on October 02, 2013, 03:26:41 pmThere is nothing stopping people from taking private healthcare, just as they do now, if they do not wish to be on waiting lists.As far as i'm aware universal healthcare countries all have a thriving private healthcare sector.It's about choice.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 04:02:32 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on October 02, 2013, 03:48:52 pmLumping all heart patients and joint replacement patients into one group is not something we do in this country.Heart transplant opportunities are open to convicted, death row inmates. We are very liberal in this country.

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 04:07:45 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 02, 2013, 12:48:31 pmAgree, they called Norway for a comunist country since we got free healthcare!What piss me of time and time again is the words: USA, we are the greatest country in the world!!A direct insult top every other nation.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 04:58:24 pm
content: If they screw up October 17th too, the real fun will begin

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 05:11:06 pm
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on October 02, 2013, 04:07:45 pmThat may have at one time been true, but we are far past it now. We are a nation comprised mostly of fat lazy losers - voting for ever more "free stuff" from our already over-extended government.While we did some things in the past that warrant some pride, I am ashamed to be associated with what this country has become. And for those of you who say "love it or leave it", ya, I'm thinking of leaving it.

author: arvidj
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 05:28:30 pm
content: Quote from: JoeO on October 02, 2013, 03:26:41 pmI do not think the "We don't have to wait for heart surgery or joint replacement as those who live in the universal healthcare countries." statement is true for all Americans.If you have health insurance ... either purchased it yourself or purchased and subsidized by your employer ... it might be true. If you do not have health insurance or are not wealthy then you may wait until hell freezes over for those or any other health related services. That, of course, assumes that your health insurance actually does cover the procedure.Just two of many different methods for allocating finite and limited healthcare resources to a large population.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 05:37:59 pm
content: QuoteUnless you don't have insurance in which case I believe the wait is basically "for ever"

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 05:48:08 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 02, 2013, 11:36:52 amQuote from: JoeyP on October 02, 2013, 05:11:06 pmYou both have my sympathy, I guess sometimes it must be very difficult for certain Americans like you two to socialize or discuss in international arenas like at this forum in a moment like this.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 06:03:45 pm
content: Even the Mars rover is standing idle. they spent billions of dollars getting the thing there. It has a limited lifespan due to its Nuclear-Thermoelectric generator.. Use it or not that cell is decaying..So every second it is not doing anything it is dying ...

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 06:40:53 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 02, 2013, 11:54:14 amSpare some change?

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 06:47:00 pm
content: National Park Service orders shutdown of a park that is not federally funded.http://freebeacon.com/shutdown-theater/How about the fact that the IRS sent home 90% of their people yet they still have 1.6M on the job? WOW!If that's not a reason to simplify our tax system, then I don't know what is. That would mean those 1.6M people that were still there had to process less than one tax return per day to cover everyone in the US for the year.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 06:59:52 pm
content: "The shutdown affects the ability of the intelligence community to support the military, diplomats, and policy makers...."Quoting CNN ->Government shutdown 'extremely damaging' to U.S. intelligence operationsYAY !!!This means NSA is ... wait ... damn, I've been tagged just by posting this, forgot that NSA's monitoring bots don't need salary.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 07:02:36 pm
content: Quote from: arvidj on October 02, 2013, 05:28:30 pmYour first words "I do not think.." are irrelevant. What is important is what do you know? Your knowledge of the US healthcare system is lacking.You can still get heart surgery or joint replacement without insurance. You pay for it yourself or if you can not afford it, the government will pay for it.In NYS it is called Medicaid. Other states have other named plans.Why do you think illegal immigrants are coming over the Mexican border. Some are coming for FREE health care.Who do you know that was turned away from a hospital because they could not pay? NO ONE! A hospital MUST TREAT you.Also, look around. How many people who can't "afford" health insurance have tattoos, smoke cigarettes, drink, have pets, have fancy cars or trucks or spend their money in other foolish ways? ANSWER: The vast majority.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 07:07:10 pm
content: Quote from: JoeyP on October 02, 2013, 05:11:06 pmThis is the sad truth. There are still bright people, good people, and hardworking people, but they are in the minority by far. Most people are content to be ignorant and let others do for them because they are lazy. The bottom line is that it can't support itself.When people here actually worked for a living; there was money. When the companies and politicians made their coin by outsourcing jobs people could do, there were no jobs left that the people could do and instead of being money producers they became money consumers. A generation later and people don't even consider working now when they can get on the government assistance or sue somebody or some company and get a settlement. It is so bad we have commercials on TV advertising to help people get their settlement turned into a one time lump payment! What does that say about the NUMBER of people who have settlements?This shutdown is PURELY political and dramatic. The items chosen to be shut down are not out of what is best for the country, but what will inflict the most pain and get people the most angry to put political pressure. Until the congress and president stop acting like 2 year old toddler's throwing a fit and pointing fingers at each other and start acting like leaders, nothing will change.The bottom line is that if there is no money there is no money, if you can't afford to do something, then you can't. We all have to make hard choices in life with the budget and sometimes those choices need to be made. This is equivalent to watching a teenager spend more money than they have all month long, all the while knowing that the end of the month is coming where they will have to answer for it, but making absolutely no changes during the month to prevent catastrophe and then throwing a fit at the end of the month and trying to blame someone, anyone, else.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 07:20:24 pm
content: alank2 - Excellent Explanation.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 07:53:50 pm
content: Quote from: JoeO on October 02, 2013, 07:20:24 pmI concur.

author: ve7xen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 08:49:47 pm
content: Quote from: JoeO on October 02, 2013, 07:20:24 pmI was with him until he blamed Congress and the President for this. It seems quite clear that the GOP is trying to use a completely unrelated and essential budget bill to push through a reversion of Obama's health care legislation, which has already been passed and was voted on by the relevant bureaucrats. This is not responsible politics; these issues are independent and obviously divisble, one should not hold up the other, especially something so essential to the effective operation of the country. Trying to tie them together is clearly playing politics to try and force the issue, and this is the kind of bullshit that everyone hates about politicians, and seriously hampers the effectiveness of government.Agree or not with the health care policy, it'spolicy, not operational necessity. There is time to debate it, consider it and vote like reasonable politicians on it. It is not an issue tostop the function of governmentover. Further, the GOP already lost on this issue. Obama was elected on this platform, his initiative passed all votes so far. They're just being sore losers at this point, desperately grasping at straws to try and stop this change that is clearly supported by the constituents and their elected representatives.Also it's not about "free" health care, it's about efficient and effective care. Regardless of whether or not you're billed for your care, you pay for it one way or another. The US collectively spends very substantially more than any other developed country on health care, and doesn't get substantially better health outcomes for it. I would hope that any reasonable person would agree something needs to change, as this inefficiency represents a drag on the economy.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 08:52:33 pm
content: Thank you.The ACA is law now, the time to quarrel over it passed. If it bothers them so much, they can go after it separately, but using a budget bill as blackmail to have it removed is sleazy and puerile.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 08:56:32 pm
content: Any congress or senate member with an engineering degree?

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 08:57:09 pm
content: Quote from: JoeyP on October 02, 2013, 05:11:06 pmWhile it certainly is true that there are people who don't give a rats ass and want to live a freeloaders life, i think that your argument is too short sighted. And this applies to many "western" countries and not only the US.Yes, there will always be people who abuse a system where you get free healthcare, social seervices, etc. But in the grand scheme of things, they are a minority, and i think that any decent country has to accept that. But a far bigger issue is _why_ people get poorer and poorer. The two biggest reasons for that that i can see are that for one, there simply isn't enough work for everyone anymore, and then that a few people are far too greedy.The more things become automated, the less people have to work to get the same productivity. Modern factories are highly automated, with only few people working there. Stuff that required 10 persons to work on it 50 years ago are now done by a few machines and 2 people operating them. Normally one would think this is a good thing, because it lowers the cost of the produced goods. But those 8 folks that are not needed anymore have no income, and thus can't afford those goods anymore, no matter how cheap they are to produce (oversimplified speaking).The "greedy people" is an even worse one. For them it is not enough that production cost is lowered that way, they want to have it produced even cheaper while selling at the same price as before. So they outsource production to Asia. Take Apple for example. They sell high priced goods, but use manufacturers like Foxconn who make the headlines on a regular basis due to the poor conditions for their workers. Just so that Apple can make more profit. And many others are not better either.Don't get me wrong, i have nothing against making profit or having a high income. But i think that things got out of balance very badly. The problem is not that there is not enough money, there is, the problem is that the wealth distribution is totally messed up now. No, i am not proposing communism or something like that, but something has to change or it will get only worse, much worse.Take insurance companies, for example. The basic idea is that many people pay them while only a small part needs their services (or that the service they get costs less than what they have put in). So, basically that money should be there for a single purpose. But instead they go on and do risky investments in stocks or whatnot, just so to increase their profit. But making more and more profit for their board of directors and shareholders is not the purpose of an insurance company, or at least should not be. Their purpose is to collect and save the money they get, so that they can pay their customers in case they have to.Regarding wealth distribution, this is a rather nice video that shows the problem:. And i'm pretty sure that the situation isn't much different in other western countries.So, yes, there will always be freeloaders and there is nothing one can do about that. But having the majority suffer by denying them such services, out of fear that some freeloaders abuse them is just wrong, in my opinion.Also, for the life of me i can't understand how they can force 800k people to take unpaid leave and expect them to be OK with that. If you can't have any job or paid-for-your-job security even when you are working for the government, then things have gone beyond bad already.Greetings,Chris

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 09:14:03 pm
content: Quote from: ve7xen on October 02, 2013, 08:49:47 pmI blame them ALL - the entire congress and the president. The problem is all of them. The day that representatives stopped serving the citizens and began to serve the interests of others who put them in power and keep them in power.The founding fathers had good ideas, but they didn't foresee one thing. The men and women of their time that had it together were often people of character who would hold firm to their beliefs and ethics. These were people that would be deeply offended at the idea of some company or individual buying their vote instead of them voting their conscious for the betterment of the citizens they represent. The ones we have now are filling out their deposit slip as the check is being handed to them.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 09:15:20 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on October 02, 2013, 09:14:03 pmI think your glasses are getting a bit rose-colored there.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 09:31:42 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 02, 2013, 09:15:20 pmMaybe so. That is why I added the "that had it together" phase!Seriously - if you took an early congress and took the current one and each person was put to a test of voting something they thought was against what was best for the citizens they represent, I know which one would have more people sticking to their principals.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 09:39:00 pm
content: QuoteA 2009 study showed that Americans who presented to Emergency Departments were less likely to be admitted if they were not insured (including Medicaid and Medicare).Now, arguably, this might mean that they did notneedto be treated as an inpatient but would have been had there been someone to pay to increase hospital profits. I strongly suspect that the US healthcare over-treats compared with other systems but there is still an obvious bias.And depending on state anything from 4-40% of people are without insurance (that includes medicaid and medicare)

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 09:44:07 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on October 02, 2013, 09:31:42 pmAt least they weretrueScotsmenAmericans.QuoteI wouldn't be so sure about that. There was plenty of corruption in those days as well. Part of the reason we exist now...

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 10:02:17 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 02, 2013, 09:44:07 pmYes there has always been corruption, but it was a case of some corruption vs. all corruption.What are congressmen and women concerned about now? Who they have to get signed up (i.e. who they serve) on their team $$$ so they can have plenty of cash to run a zillion attack ads against anyone who comes against them in the next election...I'm put out with all of them... But one thing I think is - you can't spend money you don't have endlessly, it must end somewhere.

author: arvidj
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 10:19:34 pm
content: Quote from: JoeO on October 02, 2013, 07:02:36 pmYou are probably right. My previous 28 years working full time for two major health insurance companies does leave me wondering about certain aspects of the US health care system.Quote from: JoeO on October 02, 2013, 07:02:36 pmThat was the though my "If you do not have health insurance or are not wealthy ..." statement was trying to convey. I apologize if I was unsuccessful in communicating it clearly.Quote from: JoeO on October 02, 2013, 07:02:36 pmDoes this imply that "Universal Health Care" ... or at least an implementation that looks a lot like Universal Health Care ... has already been implemented in the United States? Does NYS Medicaid cover everyone who does not have some other type of health insurance? Are there income or other constraints?Quote from: JoeO on October 02, 2013, 07:02:36 pmThat may be 'a' motivation but can you confirm that it is the 'sole' motivation?Quote from: JoeO on October 02, 2013, 07:02:36 pmYou continue to provide anecdotal evidence that some variation of "Universal Health Care" has already been implemented. However I do not believe the terms "Universal" or "covers ALL Americans" applies. I do not feel that the current implementation(s) are particularly cost or resource efficient but that is another discussion topic.I feel this particular discussion has reached a stopping point and won't respond further.We appear to have different views on the value of the Affordable Care Act. How it is relevant to any discussion related to the budget or debt ceiling is a mystery to me. And how it is relevant to anything related to this electronics forum is ... oh, never mind.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 10:39:34 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on October 02, 2013, 10:02:17 pmWe have $16.7 trillion in debt. As ofthis 2011 articlethere was less than $10 trillion in the United States. We literally have less than no money. That ship sailed a long time ago.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 10:44:37 pm
content: I'm not an expert on the ACA, but all I know is that when it came time to enroll for healthcare, all of the ACA plans cost 50% more for 75% of the coverage as the grandfathered plans.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 10:49:47 pm
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on October 02, 2013, 10:44:37 pmThis experience was posted on the ACA facebook page. If it is true, that is disturbing.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 10:50:17 pm
content: Quote from: JoeO on October 02, 2013, 07:02:36 pmI grew up around a lot of pretty poor people. My take on that is this: there is no point (OK, there's the "poverty line", but that's not exactly something people deal with daily) at which a person is stamped with a label reading "POOR" and will make the decision to never spend money on luxuries. You could always be poorer. And you can always scrounge up some money for things you don't necessarily need. The desire to do that is human nature and you're not going to get rid of it. The ability to occasionally find a way to waste money, or the will to live a bit poorer for a short while to enjoy yourself briefly, does not equate to the effects of a large, additional monthly cost like health insurance.And not every poor person was always poor. People get tattoos and then become poor. People become addicted to cigarettes and then become poor. People buy pets and then become poor. People want companions even when they are poor. People buy cars and then become poor. This is common, not hypothetical.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 10:53:33 pm
content: I agree,if that is true, it is disturbing indeed. I'm not sure how much I believe it.

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 10:58:32 pm
content: Quote from: mamalala on October 02, 2013, 08:57:09 pmI acknowledge that you are entitled to your opinion, but I've heard the arguments for socialism before. No thank you. In this country, the freeloaders are rapidly reaching the threshold of becoming the *majority*, and that's the problem. This quote sums up the situation well:"I am for doing good to the poor, but... I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed... that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer." —Benjamin FranklinQuote from: mamalala on October 02, 2013, 08:57:09 pmWhat a bizarre thing for someone in the electronics industry to say. Yes, I guess we could all be driving hand-crafted steam-powered cars, but in that case many of the people participating in this forum would be among the ranks of the poor.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 10:59:09 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 02, 2013, 10:53:33 pmLies, damned lies and facebook postsIt was also reposted on the Infowars website and yeah sometimes that guy's stuff is a bit sketchy.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 11:10:53 pm
content: I don't want to be the asshole who calls everybody who claims to be in a bad position a liar, but there are some pretty sketchy people on both sides. I wouldn't put it past some of my own family to make up a post like that.

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 11:13:03 pm
content: Quote from: JoeyP on October 02, 2013, 10:58:32 pmAnd i made an argument for socialism where exactly? You should be able to show that, right? Yeah, thought so...Quote from: JoeyP on October 02, 2013, 10:58:32 pmSo you deny that production gets more machinized and automatized, requiring less people to produce the same output? And that if less people are required and thus not employed, more people have less work? Seriously?Did you actually read what i wrote, or did you just skimmed it and picked up a few buzzwords that you can cling to?I'm convinced that it is exactly that mindset that, at the root, caused the situation you folks have over there right now.Greetings,ChrisEdit: And just to be clear:http://stateofworkingamerica.org/charts/unemployed-and-job-openings-by-industry/. As long as there are less jobs availble than there are unemployed people, there will always be people who have to depend on things like social services. Accusing them of being lazy and not want to work is just silly. Especially if the ratio is that unbalanced.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 11:14:42 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 02, 2013, 12:51:21 pmSome of that has to do with the fact that they can be heads of committees that approve certain contracts or company mergers. That allows them insight into future stock purchases.If you knew a week ahead of time that two companies were going to merge you could make some serious money off of that information.

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 11:26:43 pm
content: Quote from: mamalala on October 02, 2013, 11:13:03 pmYou asked, and presumed my answer to your question in the same post? Why should I bother to respond when you do that? But seriously, did you read your *own* post? Is socialism so second nature to you that it is now invisible to you?Quote from: mamalala on October 02, 2013, 11:13:03 pmNot at all. I simply don't have any issue with it. It's called progress. Yes, virtually every job becomes obsolete eventually. Unless we decide to simply freeze progress in its tracks. Is that your solution?Quote from: mamalala on October 02, 2013, 11:13:03 pmYes, I can see that you are quite an expert on us folks's problems.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 11:26:50 pm
content: I work as a family doctor in the US. In my practice every day I care for poor people - many on medicaid (the current goverment program for health insurance for the poor). I volunteer at a free clinic for uninsured every few months.A few points:Most uninsured patients I see are hard working folks who just don't make enough money at their Wal Mart, fast-food or other service job to afford health insurance. But they make too much to qualify for medicaid. Many of these people have to choose between buying food and buying medications... Many became poor because of medical bills.....Yes - there are those who abuse the system and take advantage of medicaid or medicare = but they are the minority.No, the ACA ("obamacare") is not a solution. It is pissing in the wind and will not solve any of the major problems in our f**d up medical system which funnels way too much money into insurance companies, medical device manufacturers and pharmaceutical companies (the ones who can lobby and pay the politicians).Real solutions will only come when there is some sort of universal health care - since the whole idea of "insurance" for something that everyone needs is just silly.. - but that just aint gonna happen given the hysterical rhetoric by some that this would be "socialism". Things are gonna have to get worst before any real change happens.I'm all for free market economics (traveling extensively in Eastern Europe before 1989 taught me that) - but it is not the solution to everything. There is no truly free market possible for most aspects of health care.(doc before you treat me for this life threatening infection - i'd like to shop around first....)Our county is bankrupt - as are most western countries. The exponential growth of our debt and growing chasm between the haves and have nots has been developing ever since the "borrow and spend" policies begun under Reagan and continued by every administration and congress over the past 30 years.RIght versus Left, Blue versus Red, USA, USA rah, rah, rah... What a load of crap and distraction from the real problems.I too often find myself embarrassed by my country's actions. Then again, a look at history shows that we're no different than past empires - the British, Spanish, Dutch, Portuguese, Roman, etc, etc ..... People are the same everywhere - greed, abuse of power and the tendency to get fat and lazy when the opportunity presents itself are universal traits throughout history...

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 11:36:40 pm
content: Quote from: JoeyP on October 02, 2013, 11:26:43 pmStill can't show where i made an argument for socialism? Why then are you lying about the argument i made? [Edit: And i did not presume anything. I _know_ that you can't show that i made an argument for socialism. Simply because i didn't]Quote from: JoeyP on October 02, 2013, 11:26:43 pmNope. But at least you now somehow admit that less and less people will have jobs. Now you just need to explain how those can be considered freeloaders if in fact there are no jobs available for them anymore. And just in case you missed my edit to that post:http://stateofworkingamerica.org/charts/unemployed-and-job-openings-by-industry/. All those unemployed and no jobs available for them. Damn freeloaders, right?Greetings,Chris

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 11:43:59 pm
content: So, does this mean US congress has ratified DoS as a legitimate means to an end?

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 11:54:41 pm
content: Quote from: mamalala on October 02, 2013, 11:36:40 pmNo, I didn't. I acknowledged that they will not have *the same* jobs. But that's not an excuse to roll over and mooch off of society for the rest of their lives. It's an inducement to find some other way to contribute to society, and get paid for it in return.As I said, virtually every job becomes obsolete at some point. And, new types of jobs replace obsolete jobs. It's been that way for a very long time, and unless we decide to arbitrarily freeze the state of the world at its current place, it will continue to happen.What's your solution?

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 11:57:03 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on October 02, 2013, 11:43:59 pm

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 11:58:21 pm
content: There's an article on cracked.com that I think sums-up the US health care situation quite nicely.The article is titled5 Seemingly Harmless Groups That Wield Terrifying Power.See #3.The Medical-Industrial Complex That Exists Solely to Bankrupt You.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 12:23:27 am
content: When an American accuses you of socialism (or in the old days communism) he ran out of arguments. No need to argue further, you won.

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 12:39:22 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on October 03, 2013, 12:23:27 amA highly intellectual blanket statement, which of course covers -all- possible circumstances.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 12:49:43 am
content: It covers many.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 01:55:24 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on October 03, 2013, 12:23:27 amWell I like to think we're still the least socialist nation but that's my opinion.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 02:51:46 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on October 03, 2013, 02:35:17 amI wonder what it is in Australia? I had a quick search but my Google Foo must be weak today.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 03:18:05 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on October 03, 2013, 02:35:17 amHogwash!Thenumber is actually 17%

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 03:20:43 am
content: Quote from: mamalala on October 02, 2013, 11:13:03 pmAs production gets more mechanized, the same number of people can produce far more output. That's how countries got rich during the industrial revolution, by making the transition to inefficient cottage industries to efficient large scale production.It's how America could have got richer too, if America hadn't decided to send all its money to China so China could get rich on American dollars. In case anyone didn't notice, China is full of automated, mechanized factories, built with American money. Only now are people realizing that it is pretty dumb to fund your competitors so they can put you out of business.

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 03:44:43 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on October 03, 2013, 02:35:17 amWow. Well said. I don't know who's stat is right (the 17% number came from a *poll*, not from employment records). But even 17% is absurd. We really need one government worker for each 5 "free" citizens?What I do know, is that our federal debt is absolutely unsustainable. We're getting a free ride right now because our government has succeeded in holding the interest rates artificially low - for the moment. That will eventually change, and our annual deficit will explode. If the rate the government has to pay returns to just the historical norm of around 5%, we'll suddenly be paying about a trillion a year just for interest.I think the "United" States will eventually become just "The States", just as USSR disintegrated under its economic pressures. I have this fantasy about it happening without major violence, but agree that it is very unlikely. It probably starts with a spike in interest rates that causes the federal government to dramatically cut services as it is suffocated under its own debt burden. As that happens, states begin to question the legitimacy of a federal government which takes, but no longer gives, and some state, probably Texas, gets serious about seceding from the union (they've joked about it for years). Once any single state secedes, it will become a free-for-all as the country fractures into several regions with some states probably forming smaller unions.Problem is, even if the country in its new form somehow survives the violent blood bath, it still leaves the question of who pays china and others back? Do we suppose they will just forgive the debt owed them by the then defunct federal government? Unlikely. Do they declare ownership of part of our country, and are they willing to fight a war over it?

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 04:08:28 am
content: Quote from: JoeyPWell one stat comes from a 2010 poll of almost 100k workers done by Gallup. The other "stat" is just a made up piece of propganda .QuoteAgreed . But the real reason we get away with this (for now) is because the US dollars status as the worlds reserve currency ... For now......QuoteThe debts will not all be paid back at full value -either because of outright default or because they are nominally paid back with severely devalued dollars ( defacto default)

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 05:29:27 am
content: Quote from: JoeyP on October 03, 2013, 03:44:43 amThe United States is a Federation voluntarily entered into by its constituent States.The USSR was the result of military conquest,in most cases before the Revolution,so it was made up of separate countries of widely differing ethnicities.It was just another version of the old Russian Empire,with real effective power centralised in Moscow.Free Marketeers love to blame the collapse of the USSR on "economic pressures",but those same pressures were there for many years,during which the Soviet Dictatorship appeared to the rest of the world to be doing just fine economically.Only when the regime offered some limited freedom to its citizens did the whole thing start to get shaky.It is interesting that around about the same time period,the Dictatorships in Spain,Portugal,Argentina,& Chile crumbled----All good Free Marketers!Apartheid in South Africa was also swept away.It looks suspiciously like people don't just dislike Dictators who get the Economics wrong--they just don't like Dictators!The USA is not a Dictatorship,so that particular "trigger" does not exist!It also survived the Great Depression ,compared to which the present nonsense is like a walk in the park.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 08:01:15 am
content: And talking about dictators and communists, The US seems to think that some sort of medical planning is far to socialist for them.. well when WW2 ended a translated copy of the beveridge report (yes the one that started the UK on the road to the NHS) was found in Hitlers bunker with a note "this is far better than anything we have, after we win the war we will have to have something like this AH"So a good social security and health care system is not just the dream of your local communist's. Every one wants it in reality it is just that they have bee persuaded otherwise by a long protracted campaign by vested interest.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 09:13:04 am
content: Quote from: IanB on October 03, 2013, 03:20:43 amErr, that's the free market. The consumer favors, by and large, the cheaper product, so those manufacturers that don't take advantage of cheaper overseas labor tend to go extinct due to their inability to compete. It's funny how the most staunchly conservative, "free market" types that view any kind of governmental control or restriction (either direct or indirect) on where they can spend and where they can make their money as some kind of inherent evil or abomination are generally of that demographic having the most antiquated and insular "us and them" conception of the rest of the world, in both economic and cultural terms.The other countries of the world need to be accepted, by and large, as trading partners, not economic "competitors" in the reality of this day and age. The re-distribution, or rather the equalization and leveling-out of global wealth that is part and parcel of an unfettered and unrestricted free market enterprise does in fact, in a way, make America, with all of its accumulated wealth to date, one of the most "socialist" nations currently on the planet. The irony is not only obvious when peering into the far right of the political spectrum, but looking in the other direction as well, with the lunar left decrying capitalism as an evil in virtually any shape or form.And BTW, China couldn't exist in its current state of lowly but improving "exuberance" if the rest of the world didn't buy its crap or export to it vast quantities of natural resources - they are in no way isolated and "self sufficient" in the delusional way that the radical right perpetually insinuates them to be, or wishes/imagines that America was, or could be, instead. Same goes for other major developing nations. Economic nationalism is as bunk today as the dodo is dead.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 09:25:08 am
content: Quote from: JoeyP on October 03, 2013, 12:39:22 amBut in a nutshell, basically correct.The political argument equivalent of "religion is a matter of faith".

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 09:32:20 am
content: Quote from: David_AVD on October 03, 2013, 02:51:46 amLess than 1% work in our public servicehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Public_ServiceI'm not entirely sure how you'd count the rest, or what all the categories would be?

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 10:15:44 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on October 03, 2013, 02:35:17 amIs it really "providing a service" if you don't really want it?It's like the windshield men that appear out of nowhere to wipe your windshield and ask you to pay them. That's how I see 90% of the government.

author: dfmischler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 12:18:41 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on October 03, 2013, 03:18:05 amThis gets more complicated than it might at first appear. Who counts? Active duty military? Military reserves (people with other jobs who get paid for a few hours part time service per month but can be called up to active duty)? Police & fire fighters? Public school teachers? Defense contractors (i.e. people working for private employers that get paid by the government)? How about a doctor who works for a community hospital, or who gets paid by Medicare to treat people with no money or health insurance? Do you count people who show up in more than one category multiple times (e.g. public school teacher who is a military reservist)?

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 05:08:39 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on October 03, 2013, 05:29:27 amThe present nonsense, yes. The nonsense around the corner, not so much. By the way, the $17t that we owe now is just the tip of the iceberg compared to the unfunded liabilities of Medicare and Social Security. Google - unfunded liability medicare, and you'll find many references but here's one that's fairly comprehensive:http://www.usnews.com/opinion/mzuckerman/articles/2012/12/28/mort-zuckerman-brace-for-an-avalanche-of-unfunded-debtIf you've ever watched anyone go bankrupt using their credit cards, you recognize the pattern. Yup, all is great and things seem calm enough for a while. They tend to deny that there's any problem at all - until they finally hit the wall and the Ponzi scheme collapses.Have you heard of our civil war (1861-1865)? It was ultimately triggered by southern states declaring that they were seceding from the union. So a dictator is certainly not the only possible trigger.When the federal government and its debt grow to a point that it must impose draconian taxation on the citizens of the states, the states will eventually consider the option of leaving the union. That's when things will get interesting.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 05:37:05 pm
content: Will California then become the PRC. Peoples Republic of California after a split up of the states.

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 05:53:02 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on October 03, 2013, 05:37:05 pmSome of us already call it that

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 06:46:01 pm
content: Quote from: JoeyP on October 03, 2013, 05:08:39 pmYou forgot about the 1.5 quadrillion in derivatives. Now factor in that the US dollar holds the global petrodollar status. If Russia, China, the middle east or any other moderately large block starts trading oil in common currency, the US is in deep shit. That will make the dollar basically valueless. Can you say United States of Zimbabwe?! This probably factors in strongly why our govt is so itchy to always get involved and try to control the middle eastern states.Short form answer is that we've got a serious mess over here. The powers that be might be able to juggle the bookkeeping and hold off disaster for a while but things are bound to get ugly somewhere in the not too distant future. Buckle up folks, we're in for a bumpy ride!

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 07:03:43 pm
content: Quote from: ampdoctor on October 03, 2013, 06:46:01 pmTotally agreed. We've created a number of time-bombs, any one of which could collapse "The mother of all bubbles" which is our federal government. It's easy for Americans to take our past stability for granted, and blindly assume that it will always be that way. Most of us haven't seen anything too dramatic occur in our country during our lifetimes (I mean dramatic on the level of a civil war, or world war II). We tend to think of that kind of thing as happening only as an anomaly in history, or only on other continents. I think we're going to get a taste of serious drama in the not too distant future. I hope to be watching from a safe distance - if there will be such a thing.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 07:53:10 pm
content: This is happening right now, according to WashingtonPost.com:Shots fired at Capitol.Is this anotherfalse-flag operationfrom the elitists-drivenstatist agentsor just 'an isolated incident' according to Capitol Police Chief Kim Dine?-George

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 08:51:35 pm
content: Quote from: A Hellene on October 03, 2013, 07:53:10 pmFrom what I've seen on the news so far, it sounds like just some crazy women who may have made a wrong turn into a service entrance, and then got into a confrontation with security, and made the big mistake of trying to run from them in her car. She had a child in the car with her, and apparently wasn't even armed.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 09:16:26 pm
content: Yes, this is what has been reported. It might be that simple.But, what if it is not? Whatever this incident really was, would it not be a fine opportunity for those in power to analyse the reactions of the public in order to conclude how much further they can safely push the situation without having some massive counteraction?This is exactly what happened over here, in Greece, when they burned the Athens down town down, in 2008: They saw and calculated what the people's reaction would be if the pushed the situation (their agenda) even further. As a result, they already knew what kind of pressure would the people sustain without revolting. And, in a year and a half time later, they brought us the IMF draconian measures without any substantial resistance...This is whatSocial Engineeringis about.-George

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 09:30:05 pm
content: Quote from: mamalala on October 02, 2013, 08:57:09 pmYou make a very common but fundamental mistake in this line of thinking.The "pie" - the wealth - is not of a fixed size. One person having more does not mean someone else must have less. Wealth is created, not simply passed around. So when people complain about wealth distribution and then call for it to be "fixed", they misunderstand the nature of the problem.Humans live for a relatively short period of time. The correct way to handle problems like wealth inequality is to ensure everyone gets the same chance, NOT that everyone gets the same result. Guaranteeing of results is a big part of what has gotten the USA (and the world) to where we are today. We (and everyone) toss money around in social programs like it's a neverending resource, but it's not. In the USA, you can live a lower-middle-class lifestyle without working at all, based purely on government handouts. All of the wealth that is taken and diverted to those people is spent inefficiently. It's money not going to business, or research, or science, or production. It also encourages people to voluntarily take themselves out of the workforce through laziness.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 10:15:18 pm
content: QuoteI'd like to see you try. Unless you consider below-poverty-level to be "lower middle class".

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 10:23:13 pm
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on October 03, 2013, 10:15:18 pmPeople living on government handouts do not live below the poverty level.I have a whole bunch of relatives on the other side of my family who live this way.Section 8 housing, welfare, food stamps, fuel assistance, disability = $85k/yr with no taxes due.One is on disability for "anxiety", another for "agoraphobia" - both live perfectly normal lives, go hang out at the beach 2-3 times a week in summer, go skiing and sledding in winter, go out with their friends on a Friday night, etc.All of them have late model cars, big flat screen TV's, iPhones, plenty of tattoos, and more. One just bought a second XBox 360 because the kids were always arguing over the one they had. Most people have NO IDEA how easy and profitable it is to game the system.That doesn't count all the other freebies like free cell phone, free gym membership, free health care, free school books, free clothes, free memberships to many clubs and much more.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 10:48:50 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on October 03, 2013, 09:30:05 pmYes, but here in the USA there is not currently a level playing field - not even close. The system is skewed to give every advantage to those who already have or are born into wealth and privilege. From educational opportunities to lower taxes (smaller percent of income paid in sales taxes, 15% capital gains tax, numerous tax deductions and loopholes skewed to the wealthy, etc, etc).Those at the top always think they got there because of their own hard work and talents and rarely acknowledge the role that luck and privilege play. They rarely have anything but superficial contact with those at the bottom and love to cite the examples of those at the bottom who abuse the system while never pointing out those at the top abusing the system.I say this as someone in the top 5% of income earners. Yes, I worked hard to get what I have but no harder than most in the bottom 5% of income earners. The difference is I was born a white male into an upper middle class family with parents who gave a damn - and I was lucky... Sure there are examples of those who worked their way out of poverty, etc - but that does not mean that the majority of those who have some wealth worked harder or are smarter than those who don't. Many, many examples of dumb, lazy rich people who benefit tremendously from the corporate welfare state....Bottom line is there are plenty of lazy, dishonest and dumb people abusing the system at both ends of the income ladder -anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 10:53:37 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on October 03, 2013, 10:23:13 pmIf that's the case, I have an aunt and uncle who would be very glad to have your relatives' magical system-gaming advice, so that they can actually have money left after their medical bills for once.

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 11:02:32 pm
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on October 03, 2013, 10:53:37 pmI also have a couple of relatives (apparently, that branch of the family carries the trailer-trash gene) that I should put in touch with your aunt/uncle. They are living exactly the life that Corporate666 describes, and trust me - they aren't bright. It's a lot easier than you think.It could be, that your aunt/uncle are simply too honest to game the system that way - and kudos to them for that. But that would also mean they're not good examples of what people abusing the system look like.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 11:42:38 pm
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on October 03, 2013, 10:53:37 pmIf your aunt an uncle don't have any money left after medical bills, then they should qualify for medicaid. If they are destitute and without income, then they would certainly qualify for welfare, fuel assistance, food stamps and much more.The holy grail is disability. Until about 20 years ago, disability was for people who were actually disabled (i.e. you lose a leg in an industrial accident), but since the late 80's/early 90's they have been granting disability to people for mental problems as well - including things like agoraphobia (afraid to leave the house), anxiety disorder (you're really nervous). These 'diseases' are difficult to diagnose and there is no test for them. You only need the opinion of a medical professional.Once someone qualifies for one program, they are guaranteed access to others. For example, around here, the YMCA gives free memberships to anyone on welfare or who gets food stamps. There are also home improvement programs that give you free home upgrades. My cousin got $85,000 in free home upgrades including a new side-by-side fridge, a new chimney, new windows and doors, new siding, new water heater. The contractor cut a side deal with her where he claimed he did things he didn't do and instead did other work she wanted done, like redid her hardwood floors.The sky is the limit. But they are probably to honest to take advantage of it.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 11:50:56 pm
content: My parents came from China with nothing in 1996 except for $800 a month from a scholarship. They are now in the top 5% of income earners, and dutifully pay their taxes. They work hard for their money, yet why do the super rich earn millions of dollars a year, and barely pay anything in taxes? The answer is the stupid GOP. Fine. When Clinton was president, the economy was good, and then it was a good idea to cut some taxes, let everyone enjoy. Now, the economy is bad, and the rich are still getting away with their tax cuts and loopholes, while we support a whole bunch of lazy people. Plus, the damn GOP won't close some of the damn loopholes!If we should give out this much welfare, why not replace the cellphone plans, etc. with college education programs that include food and housing. Thus, low income families will be motivated to go to college and thus pay their taxes later in life.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 11:58:09 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on October 03, 2013, 10:48:50 pmThat is factually untrue.Educational opportunities are skewed to the less privileged by far. That includes grants and guaranteed loans, favoritism in the admissions process and much more. As for taxes, you are mistaken that it is skewed towards the wealthy. Earned income credit, additional child tax credit, elderly tax credit, and educational tax credits all have income restrictions. Many other tax breaks like home interest deduction are restricted either by income or to primary residences, disproportionately hurting the more wealthy. And the big big one - AMT. The taxes paid by the wealthy are greater in absolute value and in rate than those paid by lower earners. The IRS publishes this datahttp://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=456I am not sure what "smaller percentage of income paid in sales taxes" is supposed to represent, but of course someone who earns less and spends more of their income will pay more of their total income in sales tax - that's not favoritism, that's just math.QuoteI totally disagree with you. It is indisputable that there is a correlation between work and results. Some people get lucky, but I would disagree that the bottom 5% work just as hard as the top 5%. Actually the bottom 5% don't work at all. And there are so many educational and economic opportunities out there that there are few excuses for people who are unhappy with their situation for not changing it. The government hands out money and opportunity like it's going out of style. The two things they can't hand out are responsibility and motivation. If those things aren't there, then no amount of freebies will make a difference. Which is why years of social engineering haven't worked.I agree with you that the deck is stacked, but we don't agree about how. And there is a ton of opportunity out there for those that want to take it. The problems that cause people not to want to take that opportunity are not really ones that the government can solve.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 12:06:56 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on October 03, 2013, 11:50:56 pmI admire your youthful outlook on thingsI think Winston Churchill had a good point when he repeated the quote "Not to be a republican at 20 is proof of want of heart; to be one at 30 is proof of want of head".It is not true that the rich earn millions per year and barely pay anything in tax. There are some problems with the tax code, like the part that allows hedge fund managers to take salary at the cap gains rate, but how many hedge fund managers are there in the USA? Very few - certainly not enough to set policy based on. Individual cases should never determine policy - it should be set at the macro level. At the macro level, the wealthy pay a much higher percentage and (of course) dollar figure than those who earn less. I believe that is fair.The problem we have in the USA is a spending problem, not a revenue problem. We spend way too much money on things we shouldn't. And before anyone gets the idea that I am a right winger, I include foreign aid and our military in that. We need realistic government, taxation, spending and services. But that will never happen in my lifetime - the can will continue to be kicked down the road until the country implodes. That is the fate of all governments from the dawn of time.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 12:10:57 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on October 04, 2013, 12:06:56 amJust print more money.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 12:47:05 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on October 04, 2013, 12:10:57 amActually, one idea that at first sounds whacky, but has a lot of potential, is eliminating all taxes and just funding the gov't through printing moneyIt would be a lot more efficient!

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 12:56:11 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on October 03, 2013, 11:58:09 pmNo, it is 100% correct.QuoteYou actually believe that?QuoteI spent 7 years teaching college and I can say from experience that while there are soem efforts to provide financial aid for economically disadvantaged - the process as a whole - at all levels of society -from elementary education through university is skewed to provide better education to those who start from a place of privilege. It's about much more than grants, loans and affirmative action policiesQuotePredictable rebuttal - shift topic from total tax burden to nominal income tax rate - which means little anyways since very few wealthy people pay that rate. I certainly don't. It's not just hedge fund managers it starts with the mortgage income tax deduction for homeowners, IRA, 401K, 403b, 457 pre tax income deductions, 15% capital gains (not just for hedge funds managers), etc, etc . And this is just the run of of mill ways that the average middle class to average wealthy person reduces their income tax rate. The really rich have many, many other legal means to do so. I know- my brother married into a family in the top 0.01% - and they pay very, very little in income taxes...But the real issue is that for poor people - it's all the other little taxes - other than income tax that take a large percentage of their already meager income.SeeTHISfor a clearer picture of total tax bill byreportedincome.(but keep in mind even that is only referring to nominal tax rates and does not take into account pre-tax income deductions mentioned above)QuoteWell the problem is that if someone only makes just enough money to buy food, second hand clothes, toilet paper, soap and gas to get their beat up car to their job at Wal Mart then they don't have much choice.QuoteI never said there wasn't. The problem is people like you always think the p = 1 when it is no where near that.QuoteThat right there proves you are out of touch with those at the bottom.QuoteOh it's been working just fine for those at the top.QuoteI don't disagree that the government is not the answer to every problem. But the reality on the ground is that the current system is skewed to favor the wealthy and privileged. And I would agree that many of the "government fixes" have been wasteful and ineffective.But this idea that somehow most poor people don't work just as hard as wealthy people and that they just aren't taking advantage of all the opportunities available to them is just false and only promoted by those who have no real experience with large numbers of poor people or those whose ideas of self worth are dependent on believing the myth that they deserve everything they have and those who don't have as much are not as deserving.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 01:16:57 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on October 03, 2013, 11:58:09 pmHow about you go to the nearest college and play "count the brand-new Apple products"? I don't think those can be bought with food stamps.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 01:43:46 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 04, 2013, 01:16:57 amBut I think they can be bought with grant money if they come from the college bookstore.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 01:50:23 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on October 04, 2013, 12:06:56 amAm I to infer from this that you are a "closet Royalist"?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 02:07:00 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on October 04, 2013, 01:43:46 amAnything that is awarded on a year-to-year basis is cut pretty ruthlessly. I've received the messagetwo days before the bill was duethat they reduced my award because they found a way to squeeze another $100 out of it. Bullshitkids are buying iPads and Macbooks with it.And all the kids with the iPads and Macbooks have fancy new clothes and fancy new-ish cars and buy name-brand coffee shit every day on their way into class. They waste money at every occasion. There's no way in hell the grants pay for that - or if they do, please show me where they get them, because I want some of that...These are rich brats spending Daddy's money. And there are tons of them.This is astate school.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 03:07:56 am
content: "The NIST is gone" well done! a brilliant way to create an offtopic political thread. 9 pages time to lock now, it has nothing "affecting electronics" anymore. back to your bench folks.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 03:09:55 am
content: Now I can't use my welfare to buy that new fancy Agilent. Back on topic!

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 06:52:49 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on October 04, 2013, 03:09:55 amA old saying here in Norway: A people get the gouverment they deserv..

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 09:47:57 am
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on October 04, 2013, 06:52:49 amThe biggest problem with democracy is the standard of people making the voting decisions.

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 11:50:20 am
content: NIST's WWV/H time and frequency standard is still there on 5 & 10 MHz.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 11:51:35 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 04, 2013, 03:07:56 amSame old rule applies here as any other thread. If you aren't interested - go to another thread. If you don't want to post - don't press the keys.You know it still amazes me, after years of adminning forums. The power of an off-topic thread with just the right subject is really amazing. It one of the most powerful entities on a forum. It's like a car crash - people just can't drive by without looking.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 12:26:50 pm
content: oh no dont get me wrong! indeed this is an interesting topic!infact few hours ago i was thinking to create "us gov shutdown what affect your electronics?" but that wouldnt be interesting is it? the interesting part is when the shit really happenedQuote from: ErikTheNorwegian on October 04, 2013, 06:52:49 amunfortunately old sayings dont work well in this modern world. you pick obama, or mr bill, or the almighty george, they will all be the same. different skin (no pun intended) but the outcome will be the same, guess why? i think i dont like to mention the why, except we all are (US citizens esp in this case) being fooled.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 12:36:38 pm
content: The problem is that a NIST topic doesn't appear to be off-topic at first, until you realize that most of the posts are about people moaning about the US or their own government, unsubstantiated claims and innuendo. Should have been titled 'Bash the US government at your leisure in this thread'.What's the big deal anyway, the government has shut-down several times in the past, the record being 21 days if I remember correctly, NIST doesn't seem to have suffered much.In the end, it is Dave's call anyway, but it sets a precedent. I'll just stay away and read other threads about serious electronics, while you guys vent over here.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 03:13:42 pm
content: I for one am not interested in joining or reading political forums even though I find interesting. However this particular thread has been fascinating to read and has been a great opportunity to see different viewpoints from normal people on the ground in the US

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 03:35:34 pm
content: I wouldn't feel too sorry for those poor corporations and our government being scammed by the so-called freeloaders. After all, the US health care system is itself an obvious scam. Essentially, the scammers are just scamming other scammers. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the US health care system is a scam when one considers the costs involved as compared to other countries. Where, exactly, is that excess money going?I haven't quite figured out how the scam works (see the article I linked to earlier for an idea) but I imagine it has a similar pattern to the US financial institution's ATM network scam. Since this is a technical forum most of you can see how obvious this scam is. Financial institutions charge a substantial fee to each other to access each others networks. Two or three dollars.However--and this is the important part--they pass this cost on to the customer. So, simply put, they can claim this is a real fee.Theyareneversubject to the fee--the customer always is. Naturally, this collusion pays handsomely, since, as everyone here knows, there is very little real cost for one computer communicating with another over a network.There is likely a similar collusion between insurance providers and health care providers. This obviously works out great for insurance providers because the more expensive health care is, the more a person needs health care insurance.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 03:47:42 pm
content: Meanwhile the server admin hasn't been backing up the server at NIST and a hard drive with all the standards crashes. Sorry folks, back to cubits, rods, hogsheads and drams.

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 04:04:06 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on October 04, 2013, 03:47:42 pmQuestion is just if it would be really that much worse, compared to the current stuff like 2 312/420th of an inch and the likesGreetings,Chris

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 05:07:34 pm
content: Three big problems with the gov't shutdown...1) The people still get paid, they just get it after they go back to work. So this is vacation for them.2) It causes everyone to dig in and get more stubborn3) The things which are shut down are chosen to be the most hurtful to the people. They always talk about the national parks, etc. A couple of gov't websites I use were down too - why? If it's just an information page, then it would need to be specifically cited to be taken offline as opposed to just not updating it. That is a childish ploy by folks in gov't to "make it hurt" - retaliation, in other words.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 05:12:37 pm
content: Quote from: mamalala on October 04, 2013, 04:04:06 pmWhat's wrong with inches? They are like computers, divisions of 2 4 8 16 32 etc.

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 05:30:11 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on October 04, 2013, 05:07:34 pmYup, exactly. Which brings us full circle in this thread. There was no reason for the NIST site to shut down. The servers would likely work just fine for a significant period of time with no human involvement (in fact they're still serving up the "We're closed" page). If the hardware quite before they got back to work, fine. Then it would be down. But they deliberately took it down to cause pain while they're on fully paid vacation.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 07:32:17 pm
content: Quote from: JoeyP on October 04, 2013, 05:30:11 pmThe government certainly seems to have the budget to send people around to block people from getting to things that are shut down.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 09:58:24 pm
content: Quote from: JoeyP on October 03, 2013, 03:44:43 amThat would make mid-21st century history very complicated.Please don't split up the states.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 11:25:02 pm
content: The biggest worry of all is that we have nowhere to get our Agilent 3458's calibrated.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 12:06:08 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 02, 2013, 02:19:16 pmYup, what good is an opposition party that doesn't oppose. Perhaps if they hold firm this time, we may look for something meaningful happening.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 12:44:50 am
content: Let's try and keep this thread on topic i.e. how the lack of NIST affects you and your work.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 05:09:16 am
content: Greetings EEVBees:Quote from: GeoffS on October 05, 2013, 12:44:50 am--I do not think that the above is the topic. Nor, by his posts does the administrator. This thread started as a political debate. If people become offensive and or insulting you should take action. But if postings are eliminated or threads locked just because of disagreement with positions taken, credibility will suffer. Let freedom ring."During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."Eric Arthur Blair - George Orwell 1903 -1950Best RegardsClear Ether

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 12:26:56 pm
content: Some thread pruning has been done.If you're one of the users whose post(s) have been deleted, feel free to complain.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 05:01:58 pm
content: Greetings EEVBees:--I can certainly see why those threads were deleted. If people wish to discuss the ongoing results of the Balfour Declaration of nearly 100 years ago, then start a thread where that is the topic and see if it is left up."I'll have the Alfalfa sandwich, and the smashed yeast"Woody Allen 1935 -Best RegardsClear Ether

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 05:44:24 am
content: So then, ............ NIST........How much longer does anyone think they are going to keep the old HF time signal transmissions going? I've got an unfinished WWV time standard/receiver project on the shelf and am wondering if I should finish it off or reuse the bits for something else.

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 06:40:24 am
content: Quote from: GK on October 06, 2013, 05:44:24 amEven if NIST closes WWV/H, there's always BPM from China.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 02:39:53 pm
content: Hadn't heard of them before. How does the signal strength compare?

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 06:12:08 pm
content: Quote from: vk3yedotcom on October 06, 2013, 06:40:24 amor CHU Canada, since 1923odd frequencies though at 3330 kHz, 7850 kHz, 14670 kHzand the signal was usually weaker than what came out Fort Collins, CO

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 06:37:50 pm
content: Nice list here....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock

author: cosmos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 07:12:44 pm
content: One service I follow that is partly down is this usgs earthquake monitoring site:http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/map/#%7B%22feed%22%3A%227day_m45%22%2C%22search%22%3Anull%2C%22sort%22%3A%22newest%22%2C%22basemap%22%3A%22grayscale%22%2C%22autoUpdate%22%3Atrue%2C%22restrictListToMap%22%3Atrue%2C%22timeZone%22%3A%22local%22%2C%22mapposition%22%3A%5B%5B-74.59010800882324%2C58.88671875%5D%2C%5B74.59010800882325%2C341.19140625%5D%5D%2C%22overlays%22%3A%7B%22plates%22%3Atrue%7D%2C%22viewModes%22%3A%7B%22map%22%3Atrue%2C%22list%22%3Atrue%2C%22settings%22%3Atrue%2C%22help%22%3Afalse%7D%7DAll readings from north American sites seems to be gone, supposedly including the warning services linked to them.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 08:20:41 pm
content: Its almost like the government is purposely making sure things are visibly unavailable.If for instance Dave Jones was suddenly squished by a giant foot from above today , would his YT channel disappear and website go down the next day? No.What would happen? Well on the YT side the videos would stay up until YT ceased to exist. His website would stay up as long as the bill was paid or until it crashed but I would suspect his host would bring the site back up if it crashed. . Most likely he pays for hosting a year at a time so it could be a while.His channel has over 500 videos so the checks would keep coming.Now if they have a finnicky server at NIST that requires daily intervention to keep it going , then yeah it could go down like this. But they had to pay someone to put the closed sign on the door rather than to let it die with a random SQL / IIS / Apache error on the screen.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 09:22:15 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on October 06, 2013, 08:20:41 pmMaybe they feared that a random SQL / IIS / Apache error on the screen would make the website hackable. Or they just wanna put pressure on people so the US government makes an agreement.

author: Hamster
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 12:47:09 am
content: we got police blocking access to the roadside where you stop to see Mount Rushmore..i bow my head in disgrace to the stupid politics of this country sometimes.

author: walshms
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 12:56:50 am
content: This is about politics, and nothing else. A few disaffected Republicans holding America hostage because they didn't get their way, and a Republican leadership unwilling or unable to assert control over that vocal minority.It's a disgrace, and I'm hopeful that there are enough people of conscience out there that at the next general election will make it known that this is a completely unacceptable way to behave. What's unfortunate is that the American electorate is, on the whole, completely clueless when it comes to understanding what the implications of their choices really are... <sigh>

author: experimentalist
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 01:35:19 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on October 02, 2013, 01:40:36 pmAnd nuclear warheads...as well as unclear knobheads...

author: Khashoggi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 01:39:48 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 02, 2013, 11:36:52 am+1

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 06:22:38 pm
content: It's good to know that it's not just the English who have to put up with stupid politicians.

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 08:31:59 pm
content: Dumb question...Could the shut-down affect the standard references(voltage for example)?

author: SAI_Peregrinus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 09:04:58 pm
content: Quote from: senso on October 07, 2013, 08:31:59 pmSome reference standards need to be kept on (clocks and such), so yes. But they can recalibrate to standards elsewhere (eg Europe) and probably have not actually shut any of them down. They kept the webservers up after all. So even if it caused an effect it would just cause even more money to be wasted, not invalidate the standard.And the NIST is compromised with regard to security standards, so they're gone for the crypto world and won't be coming back even after the shutdown ends. The trust of the NIST is gone.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 09:21:25 pm
content: I would consider it highly unlikely that they turn off their Josephson standards. The shutdown seems to be mostly theater to me: shut down the visible services to annoy the public, not to save money. But I would expect companies like Agilent to send their stuff to other national standards lab if they happened to be unlucky and needed verification of one of their transfer standards right now. National standards labs usually recognize each other's calibrations, although Agilent's relation with the standard labs might be tighter than that of the average cal lab, since they maintain their own standards lab in Loveland (which also calibrates their high-end 3458A DMM).

author: MrProsser
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 08:15:11 am
content: What really gets me when it comes to things like the NIST page, is that not only do they stop making updates, but the whole website, aside from a splash screen, is gone for now. I suppose I could use Google's caches to look for information but that is really not convenient.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 01:18:53 pm
content: Quote from: SAI_Peregrinus on October 07, 2013, 09:04:58 pmIf their standards drifted in the meantime it wouldn't surprise me if they decided to just introduce the "US volt" as opposed to the "SI volt"...

author: walshms
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 05:53:10 pm
content: Quote from: MrProsser on October 08, 2013, 08:15:11 amThis is mostly to make the point, I'd bet. Technically, none of the agencies needed to disable their content. They chose to -- so one has to guess that it's about raising a stink about it and making it likely that there would be complaints.Either that, or they're concerned about security while they're not watching...

author: walshms
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 05:55:05 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on October 08, 2013, 01:18:53 pmI don't think there's any danger of that. Some things are completely beyond politics... thank goodness.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 11:21:27 pm
content: Quote from: walshms on October 07, 2013, 12:56:50 amThat's one view.The other is that it's a few disaffected democrats who are holding America hostage because they didn't get their way, and the democratic leadership is unwilling or unable to assert control over that vocal minority.The house has sent multiple bills which would fund the gov't that the senate rejected. The senate (democrats) say "it's the republicans fault because we won't sign anything but a full budget that includes everything, so until they do, everything is shut down". The house (republicans) say "we have sent them numerous bills that would find 99% of the government, that they refused to sign, therefore it's there fault everything is shut down".Some who are biased will blame one party, some who are biased the other way will blame the other party. The fact is there is at least enough blame to share equally at the moment, and over the past quite-a-few years too.I agree that it's embarrassing and foolish that it's come to this, and it's pretty pathetic that our leadership can't agree on simple things. But I think they just represent the people - who are just as stupid and biased and unwilling to consider the "big picture". After all, we get the government we deserve. And this is precisely what we deserve.

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2013, 12:25:59 am
content: Quote from: MrProsser on October 08, 2013, 08:15:11 amYou could use the Wayback machine:http://web.archive.org/web/20130930045040/http://www.nist.gov/And of course, it is just politics and the front page. Critical services, like the Internet time servers and the status page are still working:http://tf.nist.gov/tf-cgi/servers.cgiAt least currently. I guess if the shutdown continues and employees don't get paid for some more weeks, it could get worse.

author: vk2hmc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2013, 12:34:35 am
content: WWV sold to Clear communications!http://www.lownoiserecords.com/wwv_the_tick.html

author: walshms
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2013, 04:24:22 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on October 08, 2013, 11:21:27 pmI'd buy that if it weren't for the fact that the argument is about a law that's been passed, tested in the Supreme Court, and -- oddly enough -- the Republicans voted for it before, because it wouldn't have passed the House if they hadn't.For the record: I'm independent, not affiliated with *any* political party. But I don't think we'll do anyone any favors getting into a political discourse here. I was simply making an observation, not intending to invite debate over politics.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2013, 05:51:43 am
content: This was an interesting read:http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/eric-cantor-divided-government-requires-bipartisan-negotiation/2013/10/08/98f6b7e6-3062-11e3-bbed-a8a60c601153_print.html

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 04:20:26 pm
content: I suspect the US goverment is already a kickstarter project.Project behind scheduleBullshit update reportsMay never deliver... just like any other government really.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 01:15:14 am
content: I see opinion polls have 60% want congress sacked and republicans approval rating has dropped to the lowest on record of 24%

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 01:33:28 am
content: I'm surprised. All the Republicans I know just blame the Democrats, as the Democrats blame the Republicans. This whole fiasco has just made the Dems' approval rating plummet even more among my very conservative family (is a negative rating possible?)

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 01:56:23 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 11, 2013, 01:33:28 amAll Clinton did was just get a quickie from Monica during his shutdown and then they got something together and whaddya know an economic boost.I think there's one word that describes what's going on right now... Hubris.

author: bootfetch
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 02:13:02 am
content: Are the SNTP servers also off now?

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 02:21:20 am
content: Quote from: bootfetch on October 11, 2013, 02:13:02 amQuotehttp://tf.nist.gov/tf-cgi/servers.cgi

author: bootfetch
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 03:23:03 am
content: Thanks stonent! im using those SNTP servers for my real time clock

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 04:40:18 am
content: If they really wanted to mess things up they would turn off GPS. Within a day no flights throughout the world, no shipping moving and no cellular services working reliably. Even if the ground stations were destroyed the system would still work, just with reduced accuracy and with gradual drifting as the constellation drift is not corrected.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 05:50:03 am
content: Yeah we're shut down but continue to spend money.Scary thought, what if some dead-mans switch was set to monitor some obscure government website for changes and if it went a few days without being updated that it assumed that we had been attacked by a foreign enemy and it automatically launched all nuclear weapons on whoever we've been dealing with at the time.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 05:59:09 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on October 11, 2013, 04:40:18 amGPS is part of the military, out of bounds to the pretense that it's superfluous like NIST, the "Social Safety Net", "the New Deal" and Medicare (everybody has to pay for Obamacare, even if they have to starve TO DEATH).It's all a charade by the two parties (they are captured) to ultimately transfer more wealth from the 99%Corporations, Wall Street and the Military is all that matters, and if the Government stopped throwing money at them, it could balance the books, but there's too many high end parasites.They offshore jobs, lowering their revenues and remain in WARS for decades while starting new wars, then blame recipients of welfare for the predicament

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 06:06:42 am
content: Greetings EEVBees:Quote from: AlfBaz on October 11, 2013, 01:15:14 am--William F. Buckley, on his PBS show "Firing Line" once accused his Liberal guest of "trying to police a plebiscite from the droppings of various pollsters."Three weeks in the lab will save you a day in the library every time"R. Stanley Williams 1951 -Best RegardsClear Ether

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 02:00:30 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 11, 2013, 01:33:28 amClearly I don't know what's going on. I was under the impression that some legislation went through the processes required and was about to be, or already passed and now a minority are preventing a budget been put forward because they're not happy with the outcome of the democratic process.So are you saying there are people blaming the ruling government for exercising their mandate?If this is the case, wouldn't capitulating to the demands of the minority be subverting an important due process?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 02:53:41 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on October 11, 2013, 02:00:30 pmRemember November 11th 1975?Of course,they don't have a Governor-General!

author: dfmischler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 07:39:35 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on October 11, 2013, 02:53:41 pmI assume this is a reference tothisincident.My youngest sister works for a US Federal agency. After three days of having breakfast with her youngest son (she is normally on her way to work before he is awake), he hopefully asked, "Mommy, will you be furloughed again tomorrow?"

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 04:42:24 am
content: Sparkfun is offering free kits to the furloughed. Get yours while you can!

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 05:44:27 am
content: If they are being delivered USPS then they will only get them after the posties are back at work.........

author: JohnnyGringo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 08:54:25 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on October 12, 2013, 05:44:27 amhmmmm... my Postman still rings twice.

author: skipjackrc4
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 09:30:44 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on October 12, 2013, 05:44:27 amUSPS is self supporting, so they run during the shutdown.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 10:18:56 pm
content: USPS supports itself with money from packages and stamps. Made the service worse and the price higher, but at least they deliver during government shutdowns I guess...

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2013, 05:46:55 am
content: So, through rain, snow, hurricane, earthquake or even government shutdown the postie still does a Kevin Costner.......

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2013, 10:29:51 am
content: QuoteI thought that was a retarded film. Then I sawMeet Joe Black.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2013, 12:21:59 pm
content: Didn't say it was a good movie, just that I remember seeing it unfortunately.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 01:55:33 am
content: Quote from: GK on October 13, 2013, 10:29:51 am"Meet Joe Black" was based on "Death takes a holiday" which was based on an Italian play "La Morte in Vacanza".Then again I like pretty much anything with Anthony Hopkins, even FreeJack.

author: Kryoclasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 02:36:57 am
content: Quote from: skipjackrc4 on October 12, 2013, 09:30:44 pmI hope you are using "Self supporting" loosly.I guess I should let our non-American friends in on the joke...http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2009/08/24_billion_quarterly_loss_for.html

author: JohnnyGringo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2013, 10:44:13 pm
content: " The bill provides funding to keep the government running through Jan. 15, and allows borrowing to continue through Feb. 7. It also provides that furloughed federal workers would receive back pay."wow, a nice 16 day paid holiday for those lucky few who got the furlough. I need to find me a government job.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2013, 10:55:41 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyGringo on October 18, 2013, 10:44:13 pmWell, it isn't really a holiday. It isn't like you could just take off for the Bahamas when the government shut down, since congress could pass a bill at any time and you are expected to show up the next day. For instance, while widely anticipated, it was nearly midnight on Wednesday when it was official that the government would be opening at 8am Thursday morning. And of course in many cases they are expected to make up the work they weren't allowed to do while on furlough. It is a bit weird that people got paid to not work, but the federal employees I know would have much preferred to work those 16 days than get paid to be be on furlough.

author: JohnnyGringo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2013, 11:04:22 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on October 18, 2013, 10:55:41 pm

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2013, 11:09:00 pm
content: They got paid during the shutdown??I thought the whole idea of the shutdown is that there was no budget, therefore no money to provide services

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2013, 11:11:54 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on October 18, 2013, 11:09:00 pmThey got paid retroactively. The bill that ended the shutdown included a provision that included back wages. Until that happened there was no guarantee.

author: JohnnyGringo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2013, 11:19:15 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on October 18, 2013, 11:11:54 pmIIRC, they also got retroactively paid during the previous 2 shutdowns. Plus, after 1 week, they were eligible for unemployment pay. The whole shutdown was a farce.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2013, 11:25:58 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on October 15, 2013, 01:55:33 amWhatever it was based on, the film was asinine. A morality tale revolving around such a ridiculous plot just doesn't work when the pretentiousness is layered on so thick - and thick is the operative word here. Brad pits character was inane; effectively Forrest Gump without the personality. This made Claire Forlani's 2+hours of trite fawning and gushing over the dimensionless retard all the more unbelievable and nauseating. The dialog between the main actors throughout the whole film was just absurd - especially between Hopkins and the "2nd" daughter. None of the characters behaved believably or the way any normal person would and in lieu of any intelligent and meaningful dialog between the main actors the pretentiousness and constant sermonizing just kept further amplifying the underlying absurdity of the plot.I only sat this one out for two reasons: 1) Claire Forlani gives me a boner, 2) I was hooked right from the beginning out of a morbid curiosity to see how a film based on such a daft premise that takes itself so seriously could wrap itself up in a meaningful conclusion. It didn't of course - it just got progressively dumber; and exponentially more so at the end.I think it's an indictment upon the state of the human race that this film generally receives positive reviews.

author: headwes
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 24, 2013, 11:18:42 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on October 02, 2013, 06:47:00 pmYou really think the IRS has 16 million employees?Wow, indeed!