Yet another "help me choose a soldering station" thread - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: CaptainNomihodai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2017, 04:57:08 pm
content: I'm looking to upgrade from my Hakko FX-888D to a multi-function station and find myself a bit overwhelmed. I'm looking to spend less than $1000 (US), but maybe more for the right product.My priorities are, in order:1. Desoldering. It must be a self-contained unit since I do not have shop air available.2. No-calibration required/active/composite/whatever tips (e.g. irons that use the Hakko T-15 composite tips). I'm sick of having to recalibrate my 888 when I switch to a different size tip.3. Hot air. This is more or less optional as I can buy a separate tool later.4. RF induction soldering. This is absolutely optional.Here is what I've come up with so far:Hakko:Apparently relatively reasonably priced. Units have those stupid "keys."FM-204- Solder (composite tip) & desolder, but only one tool at a time. ~$400-800.FM-206- Basically 204 plus air and a nice screen. Multi-port. I've heard that the air on this isn't very good though. $1200+Metcal:Relatively reasonably priced, but most desoldering units need shop air.MFR-1300- Solder (RF 450KHz) & desolder (internal pump, 21 inHg). Only 60W output; $800+Thermaltronics:Comparatively cheap RF soldering, but it looks like all desoldering requires shop air.Pace: Expensive, but there seem to be deals on eBay.MBT-250: Solder, desolder (20 inHg), and air (airflow seems low at 8L/min?). $1400++MBT-350: Like the 250 but with IntelliHeat as opposed to SensaTemp or something. WTF is the difference?Ersa:Very expensive and not much in the way of eBay deals.i-Con Vario 2- Solder/desolder/air. ~$1500JBC:Very expensive, potential eBay deals.CS- Solder and desolder (22.4 inHg), but only 40W output. ~$1400 but there's an $800 unit (albeit with only the desoldering handpiece) on eBay.Weller:Incredibly expensive. Owned by Bain Capital (not to get political, but this is a negative). Products are very poorly organized on the website (for better or worse, I judge a brand on its website).WR Series- This seems like a great self-contained rework system, but, absent an improbable deal, is way out of my price range.Honestly I'm heavily leaning towards the Hakko FM-204, but I figure it would be foolish of me to pull the trigger on such a relatively expensive piece of gear without soliciting opinions first.Am I missing any units that I should consider?Does anyone have experience with any of these units and would care to share opinions?Other questions/comments/thoughts/criticism of grammar/trolling?

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 02:45:35 am
content: There is a possibility if you are happy with the performance of your current iron you could always do something like this:An additional 1 or 2 Hakko FX-888 stations $100-$200The FX-8804 SMD tweezers to go on one of the stations $184.40The FR-300 desoldering gun $259.00(prices are before discounts)Then pick up any cheap or used station with standalone hot air. As far as I can see that can be easily done under $1000.Then you would have all the tools and can load out 2 or 3 irons with a tip on each and solve the swapping problem. Program one or all the stations to a general tweezer temp setting and you don't need to calibrate every time and then you can just swap the tweezers in where you need them.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 01:53:04 pm
content: my simple advice is to buy seperate units and NOT an "all-in-one".because at some point you WILL want to repair or upgrade some aspect of it.

author: CaptainNomihodai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 03:44:13 pm
content: Quote from: stj on May 16, 2017, 01:53:04 pmThat's a good point, and I normally am a fan of applying the "unix philosophy" (i.e. things should do only one thing and do it well) to tools, but I am limited by bench space. As sort of a compromise between these two things I'm leaning towards a combo solder/desolder with standalone hot air. Actually, the FM-204, which is still the top candidate right now, seems to be more a desolder unit that you just happen to be able to plug a soldering iron into too.I hadn't really considered the FR-300. Does anyone have experience with one of these? Intuitively, having the entire unit, pump and all, packed into the handpiece just seems like trouble to me (I admit that I have no evidentiary basis for this). It also doesn't use the composite tips like the FM-204, then again it gets about the same suction (actually a trivial amount more, apparently), but then again, again, it gets about 30% less airflow.Some of the PACE units on eBay are pretty tempting too, apparently good condition but well below their absurd retail prices. But for those I have to figure out what the hell the difference between SensaTemp and IntelliHeat is first, and also compare the price/availability of consumables (which, it occurs to me, I had not originally considered).

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 04:07:44 pm
content: an all-in-handle desoldering unit sounds heavy to me, and you probably feel the vibration from the pump.i wouldnt want to use something like that for what could be several hundred pins in a single go.i have owned a weller DS80 and used the cheap Zhong-Di unit dave reviewed, and just the weight of the hose & cable start to get noticed after a while.

author: bsudbrink
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 04:17:55 pm
content: To put it simply, IntelliHeat is new and SensaTemp is old. Since SensaTemp is old, it tends to be cheaper and a lot of it is showing up in the US surplus market. IntelliHeat and SensaTemp handpieces are not interchangeable without an adapter. If you watch ebay carefully, you will see bargains regularly. Don't let ebay force your search into the "soldering irons" category. The best deals are mis-categorized. I use Pace SensaTemp myself. I started out by getting a small (ST-45) SensaTemp station and two dozen brand new SensaTemp soldering handpieces in a trade. I decided that I liked Pace and, since I had a lifetime supply of handpieces, I would invest some more in it. I've probably spent about $500US and now have a practically new MBT-250 (a station that supports three handpieces and vacuum) a couple of SX-100 desoldering handpieces and a few dozen different styles of soldering and desoldering tips. Last week I picked up a new ThermoTweez handpiece (tweezer stye handpiece) with two sets of tips for $50US including shipping. Look carefully at the ebay pictures and avoid any lots with dark brown handpiece shafts. They've been sitting, roasting, on a bench for a long time and probably don't have much life left in them.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 06:23:37 am
content: QuoteEasy solution for that. For most people, the desoldering station can live in the closet/garage. Or under the bench.Firing up a desoldering gun, regularly, for general purpose use? To magically correct mistakes as you make them? You will probably not end up doing this. Waiting for the thing to heat up for one component is counterproductive. Huge tip requiring higher than soldering temps and high cost to replace... you probably won't leave it on all the time, either. Most people will not use this very often, at all. Unless you have a niche interest that requires removing thru hole parts. Or perhaps a fetish for reusing protoboard. A lot of people will end up moving this tool off their bench and digging it out for bigger jobs, as needed. I imagine this is the reasoning behind the design of the 204.A desoldering station is a PITA waiting for a bigger PITA to make itself useful.

author: dimkasta
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 08:38:46 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 17, 2017, 06:23:37 amI disagreeIt can be quite addictiveBut yes, if you have limited space, go for smaller, separate units. I got a combo with air gun and iron, and it gets too much space on my bench. Not to mention the rat's nest because of the extra cablesI am now considering putting it on a shelf above my working area

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 08:56:18 am
content: ^If you can, you might try putting it just below the surface of your bench. This way you can let the cord dangle. If you can't do this, keep it in mind when you buy/build your next bench. My hot air is located just under the bench surface on my right, with a cutout in the bench top for the air to shoot thru when I put it back on the stand. My soldering station lives down there, too, with just the iron holder up top. Having an interest in woodworking aids my endeavors in electronics.I also had a brief affair with a combo air/pickup/iron. I thought I threw it out, but I recently saw it in the garage. I have to stop hoarding. The 858D and 888 do the job better and take up less space. I bought a $50.00 vacuum thing I could hang under my bench in dead space, out of sight and out of reach, with a foot pedal to turn it on/off... so 3 separate things, but much better space and ergonomics. Where the vacuum is tucked away, it's still hanging there for over a year, unused ever since I got the hakko battery powered pickup tool. Just to illustrate how 3 can be smaller than 1.

author: CaptainNomihodai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 02:15:22 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 17, 2017, 06:23:37 amActually that's sort of the case. Most of the parts I use are salvaged (I know a lot of people will cringe at this, but I find it fun), so vacuum desoldering is a must. I find those hand pumps nearly useless, and solder wick is deceptively expensive. I used to use an ancient Pace MBT-200 that I picked up for dirt cheap at a garage sale or something, and that made my life a lot easier until it finally died (I've looked into it, replacement parts are uneconomical).

author: perieanuo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 02:33:17 pm
content: Smd is here buy 2x Atten 8502d or equiv and maybe a Metcal.I used solomon weller metcal etcétéra as iron and metcal hotair 5000,NOTHING compares sith metcal in iron soldering but you need absolutely hotair.take 2 for upper/lower heating nothing beats this.or one hotair with a hot plate but that's "bricolage ".regards,OvidiuEnvoyé de mon iPad en utilisant Tapatalk

author: bsudbrink
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 03:20:41 pm
content: Quote from: CaptainNomihodai on May 17, 2017, 02:15:22 pmI restore "vintage" personal computers, so my life is almost completely through hole. Since you're already familiar, the SX-90/SX-100 is even better than the old SX-70/SX-80. I removed five S-100 card edge connectors from a badly damaged motherboard in a single sitting with almost no fatigue. I was watching TV while I did it. Each of the connectors simply dropped out of the old board, no muss, no fuss. I've also completely stripped and rebuilt several S-100 boards to get rid of really bad single-wiipe sockets. No damage to the boards, no problems at all.

author: bsudbrink
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 03:28:45 pm
content: By the way, I also have a Hakko 808. While it's a lot lighter than you might imagine, I still find it more "cumbersome" than the SX-100.

author: CaptainNomihodai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 03:59:31 pm
content: Quote from: bsudbrink on May 17, 2017, 03:20:41 pmI think the handpiece that came with mine was something like an SX-50 (like I said, it was OLD... their response when I asked about replacement parts was basically "we haven't made that for decades..."), but even then it worked nicely before it broke despite the previous owner apparently not taking very good care of it. That's why the MBT-250/350 (or maybe the 201/301?), depending on what I can find on eBay, is on my short list.

author: bsudbrink
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 04:40:53 pm
content: Quote from: CaptainNomihodai on May 17, 2017, 03:59:31 pmThe 350 is IntelliHeat only (I think the 301 is as well) you'll pay a premium. Keep an eye for a cheap 250. Actually, there's a cheap one on ebay now. It's described as "as is/untested" (which is a little worrying) but it has a "lead free" label on it (which is meaningless as it's the handpiece tips that are either lead or lead free) but it indicates that it is relatively new. The seller is also taking offers so you might try it for real cheap.

author: BigBoss
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 04:50:52 pm
content: I have recently required a quotation from local re-seller of Hakko for FR810B-16.They have given 550 Euros(main unit)+22Euros for N51-02 ( tip).These prices should be cheaper in the US.

author: CaptainNomihodai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 05:14:07 pm
content: Quote from: bsudbrink on May 17, 2017, 04:40:53 pmThanks. I'll have to price out how much it would end up costing me with the handpieces, but that looks like it might be a winner. Unfortunately it looks like only IntelliHeat works with the cartridge-tip iron, but that may be something I just have to live with.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2017, 02:37:05 pm
content: FYI the Hakko FX-888D just went on special again at Frys for $69 if you need to setup another cheap iron for convenience.Ends tomorrow 21 May 2017 apparently.

author: CaptainNomihodai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 02:32:49 pm
content: I ended up with a PACE MBT-301 with the TD-100 and SX-100 included because the seller accepted my lowball initial offer, $420.99 (US) after shipping. The SX-100 looks a bit crusty, but even if I had to replace it at full retail price (which is unlikely) I'd still be way ahead. Hot air is probably something that will just have to wait, which seemed likely from the start; technically this unit does do hot air, but it's one of those hot air "pencils" (8 liters per minute airflow maximum) which, if Louis Rossmann is to be believed (see his review of the Hakko 206), are worse than useless.Anyway, I'm pretty happy with this since, among other reasons, I can get the "sample tip kit" (8 tips) for the SX-100 for the same price as one tip for the Hakko 204 desoldering handpiece (but then buying the SX-100 tips individually is just as expensive, go figure).

author: bsudbrink
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 03:19:54 pm
content: Welcome (or welcome back) to the Pace club. Keep an eye for ebay lots of "random soldering stuff." I've picked up a number of lightly used Pace tips (soldering and desoldering) for very cheap that way. Also, the disposable cardboard solder traps. Given the way Pace pumps work, I agree that using the "blower" pencils for reflow is probably not ideal but I want to get one to use to shrink shrink tube. I think it should work fine for that purpose.That's a good price, by the way.EDIT:I had to go peek... Did you pick up one of the ones in New Hampshire? Yea, the SX-100 in the picture looks pretty cooked. But he had 4 sets... maybe yours will be better.

author: CaptainNomihodai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 03:37:01 pm
content: Quote from: bsudbrink on May 23, 2017, 03:19:54 pmThat's the one. I've accepted that there's a good chance I'll have to replace the SX-100. Since he had multiple sets the one I get could be better, but then again it could be that the pictures posted were of the one in the best condition.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 03:56:00 pm
content: As others mentioned I would go for separate soldering and hot air/desoldering stations.My vote is for Metcal. You can pick up the base station like the mx-500 used on ebay for a bargain, and just get the stand and the handle(s) new (same for the tips).. they are not too expensive.As far as hot air/desoldering stations are concerned, I really don't know a good high quality one. I don't use mine too often, but I've been pretty happy with the relatively cheap unit sparkfun sells.https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10706It's simple and I have no complaints so far (I've had it for about 2 years). I also don't have a shop air in my office/lab so I just use a cheap fume extractor filter.https://www.amazon.com/Adjustable-Absorber-Remover-Extractor-Soldering/dp/B00RLEB6AG/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1495554838&sr=8-6&keywords=fume+extractor+filterYour board has to be pretty close to it for it to pick up the smoke.. but it's better than nothing.I do a good amount of hand soldering.. about 4-6 boards a week for the past 2 years.. this setup has served me pretty well.While I am at it, I should probably list my favourite solder and the solder reel stand I use:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00YFES1TE/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1(this solder is awesome)And the reel stand:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000PDWEDI/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

author: CaptainNomihodai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 05:14:09 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on May 23, 2017, 03:56:00 pmThe RF induction heating of Metcal/Thermaltronics/FX-100 is definitely something I'm interested in, and I'll definitely be on the lookout for eBay deals to maybe pick one up to play with. Unfortunately, for my present purpose Metcal was ruled out pretty quickly since my number one priority here is desoldering (really, I mis-titled this thread; it just so happens that you can plug a soldering iron into most of the good desoldering stations). Anyway, all the Metcals except for one need shop air.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 10:59:13 pm
content: Quote from: dimkasta on May 17, 2017, 08:38:46 amExactly the reason why I have replaced my Aoyue all-in-one (soldering iron + hot air + PSU). You won't save space by buying an all-in-one, because all the tools, cables and hoses are all the time on your bench, regardless of whether you need them or not. Also when something breaks you don't want a fault in your hot air to take out your soldering iron too because they share the power supply or something.I would consider such station again only if I was sure that all the tools will be constantly in use and having to move things to/from the bench would be impractical.