Is this a new method? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: CHAMPIGNON
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 06:20:35 am
content: "Good morning. I made the following formula to make printed circuit boards, and I want to know if I am the first person in the world to use this method?"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haL2mx8MH6E&feature=youtu.bethanks

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:22:52 am
content: It’s not new at all. PCB = printed circuit board, and the printing this refers to was screen printing, originally.There are numerous reports of people making PCBs this way, but it isn’t done much anymore because other methods are better.

author: CHAMPIGNON
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 01:36:37 pm
content: thanksI tried all the methods I found on the internet.--The thermal transfer method from paper to the board gives inconsistent results that depend on the type of board, the level of cleaning, the time, and the type of paper used. If I make a mistake once, the board cannot be reused.--As for the method of transferring the image from paper using acetone, its success rate is not 100% and depends on the quality of cleaning and the type of paper used.--As for the blue film method, it also has several drawbacks, including the appearance of air gaps.--As for the method of using a board coated with a UV-sensitive layer, I had bad experiences with it. It is expensive, and there is a high chance of purchasing an expired board.As for the method of modifying printers for direct printing on the board, I haven’t tried it because there is a high chance of damaging the printer. The board is not perfectly flat, which could cause some parts of the printer to get scratched.Quote from: tooki on January 10, 2025, 11:22:52 amPlease, where did you find a method like mine that usesthe phenomenon of electrificationto transfer ink from paper to the board?It’s worth mentioning that:-In the printed board shown in the video, the width of the tracks is 0.5 mm.-I didn’t clean the board.-Using the same method, I can add a layer to protect the copper from corrosion.-My method suits my financial situation, as my monthly salary does not exceed $250 USD.

author: inse
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 02:10:37 pm
content: Sorry, stupid me has no idea what the video is actually supposed to show.You transfer toner (?) from a film to a PCB with the help of a bank card.How does the image get onto the film?What about some explanation aside baby sounds in the background?Please cut the out of focus scenes, they hurt my eyes and brain.The resolution the method seems to deliver isn‘t impressive either.Time ago I made a simple PCB with a QFN footprint with the ironing toner transfer method, but have given up on this home chemistry stuff now.

author: PGPG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 02:13:13 pm
content: Quote from: CHAMPIGNON on January 10, 2025, 01:36:37 pmI think, I understand your situation. I live in Poland. Till 1989 we were communistic country. I remember times when working as academic teacher my salary was $13 per month (I count not official exchange rate that you were allowed to buy 130$ once per 3 years and only provided they gave you your passport this time, but exchange rate that I was able to use daily).As a child (70s), I used to draw tracks on PCBs with a ballpoint pen lead with the ball removed, using a paint I had found in a magazine that people used for this purpose.After etching I painted the boards with rosin dissolved in spirit, and this is sufficient protection against corrosion for amateur use and makes soldering easier.In my opinion the most important is that your method will not let you to have plated holes. Professionally manufactured PCBs are incomparably better than any homemade ones.I have never ordered from JLCPCB but according to what I see at net prices are in a range of few $. I don't know about shipping, but I imagine that if you're not in a hurry it can be cheap too.According to my experience if the salaries in the country are small than also local manufacturers charge not a lot for their work. I simply suppose you should be able to find local (not city, but country) manufacturer with enough PCB quality and acceptable price. You need not to order lot of PCBs. You can check your conceptions at prototype boards. I have one (old) prototype PCB at which I assembled and disassembled many, many circuits during last 40+ years.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 02:29:25 pm
content: Quote from: CHAMPIGNON on January 10, 2025, 01:36:37 pmHuh? Of course you can reuse the board if the transfer isn’t good. Just clean off the transferred toner with acetone, then give it a good scrub with a Scotchbrite pad until the copper is clean again. (The same cleaning you have to do first anyway.)You just obviously don’t etch the board until you have a clean, solid transfer.Quote from: CHAMPIGNON on January 10, 2025, 01:36:37 pmEvery method has its respective failure modes. Ultimately it’s a delicate process, and lots of things have to go right. That means having the right tools and materials to do a given method, then trial and error until the process is perfected enough for the results needed.As for popularity: as I understand it, the most common method used for PCB manufacturing (across everything, including commercial PCB manufacturing) is the dry resist film. But whether dry film or liquid, photosensitized boards are the clear leader, because they are capable of better results and finer detail than any other method. But indeed they aren’t the most convenient for DIY etching.Quote from: CHAMPIGNON on January 10, 2025, 01:36:37 pmI thought you demonstrated using some kind of stencil to screen-print the resist onto the bare PCB. Is it not that?If it’s not screen printing, what is it? There’s no description and the video is terrible so I had to guess. Please describe what you’re doing, in detail.

author: CHAMPIGNON
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 02:35:18 pm
content: Quote from: inse on January 10, 2025, 02:10:37 pmThe ink transfers from the paper to the board due to the phenomenon of electrostatic induction. A high-voltage generator was used to electrify the board, causing it to attract the ink.

author: CHAMPIGNON
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 03:02:13 pm
content: Quote from: PGPG on January 10, 2025, 02:13:13 pmI am currently working as a technology teacher for teenagers, and your situation is very similar to mine.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 03:58:12 pm
content: Quote from: inse on January 10, 2025, 02:10:37 pmThose were exactly my questions, too.Looks great, congrats if it works.Regarding your questions, how would anybody know? You have to explain what you did there, and in what aspects it is unique. Even if you do all that, and even if your method was never used before, how would anybody know if you are the first?One can never be sure who was the first. In fact, the history of science is full of strange examples:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/fun-for-nerds/msg5007316/#msg5007316Back to your PCB method, yes, might be new, but what exactly is your PCB making method? Please describe it.

author: CHAMPIGNON
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 04:17:51 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 10, 2025, 02:29:25 pmI noticed that due to the heat, the board warps, making it unsuitable most of the time, and this is related to the quality of the board.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote from: tooki on January 10, 2025, 02:29:25 pmI apologize, I printed the circuit on a paper and placed it on the board, then I applied a very high voltage to the copper of the board, making it electrified, which causes the ink to be attracted to the copper, thus printing the circuit onto the board.I hope I am the first to use this method, as it will greatly help me in writing my CV since I am looking to change my job.

author: reboots
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 04:34:49 pm
content: Quote from: CHAMPIGNON on January 10, 2025, 04:17:51 pmI have never experienced this with FR-4 fiberglass laminate. I've always been able to recover bad transfers the way tooki describes. As you say, it might be an issue with cheaper PCB materials--maybe paper composites like FR-1/2/3.Your description is intriguing, and hints at something original, but there isn't enough detail to reproduce or evaluate your method.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 04:48:18 pm
content: You can put that in your CV anyway.By ink, you mean toner? Laser printers use toner. Typical toner is made out of fine carbon dust, each particle being cover in plastic. The last step for a page in laser printer is fusing, when the printing page is passed through a heated oven. The oven temperature is high enough that it melts and fuses the microscopic beads of toner to the paper.It is a known method to disconnect the oven of the laser printer, such that later the toner can be transferred to the copper (often by a cloth iron, or with the help of a (modified) paper laminator.If by ink you mean you transfer the ink of an inkjet printer (not laser printer), than that would be totally new for me.If your method uses toner, my guess is you may have printed with a (slightly) defective laser printer, in which the oven doesn't heat enough, and thus doesn't fuse very well the toner to the paper sheet. Another cause might be that you are printing with a refill (so a different type of toner than the original), and the refill toner has higher melting temperature than the original, such that the printer oven can not melt it properly.Otherwise, when properly fused, I would expect the toner to stay on paper no matter the high voltage you apply.Even if that is the case, still a good finding. Try another laser printer, to see if you can reproduce the results with other brand of printers, and with other brands of toner.Even if your method only works with that particular model of printer and with that particular type of toner and nothing else, your electrostatic transfer is still a good finding, and worth mentioning it in your CV.

author: CHAMPIGNON
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 05:16:51 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on January 10, 2025, 03:58:12 pmtanks

author: CHAMPIGNON
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 05:22:19 pm
content: I removed the part responsible for fixing the ink onto the paper in the laser printer. To achieve excellent results, polyester plastic designed for laser printers can be used.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 06:04:54 pm
content: You cant compare income in your country to USD equivalent, this is bullshit. It tells nothing. How much you pay for food, medical service, public transit, necessary supplies, is what matters.

author: reboots
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 08:48:32 pm
content: The second video gives a better idea of your process. It seems conceptually similar to direct printing with a modified printer, but with additional manual steps to electrostatically transfer the toner and fix it with a solvent vapor (if that's what's happening with the plastic bag).I'm not convinced that it makes a noteworthy improvement on other methods in terms of speed, cost, or quality. (I've gotten good results with iron-on toner transfer, which does have its quirks.) But I have never seen this exact transfer process before. I think you could add it to your CV as an original invention.

author: CHAMPIGNON
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2025, 09:50:27 am
content: Quote from: reboots on January 10, 2025, 08:48:32 pmThanksAt first, I wanted to modify a laser printer to allow the board to feed directly into it. However, fortunately, I didn't rush and asked myself the following logical question: "Why aren't there printers on the market that operate on this principle?" I tried to answer this question and concluded that the reason might be that the boards are rigid and not flat, which increases the likelihood of scratching the photoconductive drum. This made me find a workaround for the situation. On the other hand, I am confident that this method could be very fast for mass industrial production.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2025, 10:28:02 am
content: I'm afraid your method might not be suitable for mass production.There are other better/faster/cheaper ways for the PCBs industry.Inside a Huge PCB FactoryStrange Parts

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2025, 01:40:38 pm
content: Quote from: CHAMPIGNON on January 10, 2025, 04:17:51 pmWell that is an indication of some serious flaw in either the materials and/or your exact process. It isn’t an inherent problem with toner transfer processes as such — PCBs fundamentally have to handle heat, after all.Quote from: CHAMPIGNON on January 10, 2025, 04:17:51 pmQuote from: CHAMPIGNON on January 10, 2025, 05:22:19 pmOK, so here’s how I would have described it:I use a modified laser printer (with the fuser removed) to print onto polyester sheet, then apply high voltage to the bare copper board to transfer the unfused toner from the polyester. Finally, I use solvent vapors to fuse the transferred toner to the board.Note that in English, “ink” always and exclusively means something wet (liquid, paste, gel, etc). So it was confusing when you spoke of ink.So, my comment on the process itself: as a hobby method, somewhat interesting, but probably more difficult than toner transfer. The need to handle two items with unfused toner (first the polyester sheet, then the PCB) offer ample opportunity to inadvertently smear the toner. I also suspect that it will blur when transferring from the polyester to PCB.As a commercial method I see few advantages over the methods they use now, and some disadvantages. Laser printing has various known shortcomings having to do with transferring toner from place to place. Especially as the drums transfer belts, and various blades age, toner distribution gets more uneven, and streaks begin to appear. Additionally, blur increases as toner powder gets attracted slightly less selectively. Furthermore, toner is a hazardous powder (bad for lungs, and is a microplastic environmental contaminant), so actually there is a desire to move away from it. Commercial large-scale digital printing for things like photo books uses liquid toner (i.e. the toner is suspended in liquid). The other thing that large-scale digital printing uses more and more is inkjet. Things like utility bills used to be laser printed, now they are inkjet. Inkjet ink not only avoids the powder hazards of toner, it is cheaper to manufacture.If the commercial PCB industry ever does move away from photosensitized boards (which I don’t think they will do), my current guess is that they would move to high-resolution inkjet using special inks. But I don’t think it can do the finest detail needed by modern PCBs. Realistically, inkjet can do about 1200dpi (higher is always by overlapping dots). But it also is imperfect and “satellite” droplets happen. In contrast, common direct optical methods can easily do 2540dpi — and they are essentially flawless — and given the insanely tiny features used in IC manufacturing, optical methods that use reducing lenses can do far, far, far, far higher resolutions.We have seen this happen to an extent in PCB silkscreen printing: while the etch resist and solder mask are always exposed optically to achieve perfect detail, the silkscreen printing on low-volume boards is now often UV inkjet (inkjet using UV-curable lacquer). It is inferior to true screen-printed or dry-film printing, but it is cheaper for small numbers.

author: CHAMPIGNON
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2025, 03:14:31 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 11, 2025, 01:40:38 pmThank you for the useful information you provided. The printer I used is old and had been used extensively (and it has a somewhat strange story). Someone generously gave it to me for free (many thanks to him) after its print quality became faint. To fix this issue, I transfer the circuit twice. I added some small details to ensure precise alignment between the first and second layers, and I achieved excellent results.

author: phansel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 06:31:56 pm
content: What is your goal with this project in the long run?Even if it doesn't become a scalable production method for PCBs, it would be an interesting teaching tool for a school lab. It's more fun to learn more about things that don't work perfectly than from systems that have already been optimized to perfection. think Bunsen burner vs. a hotplate, or calligraphy pen vs. ballpointMost posters here come from the perspective of mid-to-large-scale manufacturing. Hundreds or tens of thousands of parts, optimized for light weight and production in as little time as possible. For those engineers, it's entirely uncontroversial to outsource manufacturing to companies that have built up their own portfolio. Usually these companies use massive machines that expose square meters of boards at a time. Printers aren't cheap enough to beat the volume achievable with large-scale photolithography and development vats. They also aren't as repairable as the discrete components OEMs use, e.g. separate coating machines, exposure projectors, development tanks.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2025, 07:41:13 pm
content: Quote from: phansel on January 13, 2025, 06:31:56 pmActually, I think very few people here are involved in mid-to-large-scale manufacturing. I can’t be absolutely sure, since there aren’t any statistics, but I very much get the impression that people with mid-to-large-scale manufacturing expertise are decidedly rare here. And to be very blunt, that isn’t surprising, since this isn’t a Chinese-language forum, and China is where the lion’s share of large-scale manufacturing is done.But moreover, the days of homemade PCBs is largely over. As OP correctly states, the situation is different in low-income countries, but for the vast majority of people who can afford to build electronics, the cost of having a high-quality PCB manufactured in China has become so low that it makes little sense to DIY it. So even though lots of us talk about the intricacies of PCB fabrication, it’s because we are customers of the PCB houses, not because we run them!

author: silly sausage
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2025, 11:58:39 am
content: Toner transfer works ok for me without tearing my printer apart,two things come to mind,why try and reinvent the wheel, The second is why fix it if its not broken or do you keep fixing it untill its broken?,for me i will stick with the toner transfer method, It works great for me once you get the hang of it without destroying a printer!, good luck.

author: CHAMPIGNON
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2025, 07:27:55 pm
content: Quote from: silly sausage on January 16, 2025, 11:58:39 amWere the wheels of the Sumerians as good as the wheels of today?Can you use the ironing method to add a layer that protects copper from oxidation?

author: CHAMPIGNON
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2025, 08:53:23 am
content: Quote from: silly sausage on January 16, 2025, 11:58:39 amI also tried the ironing method, and it was decent (images 1, 2, and 3). However, when I purchased a different type of boards and started creating new circuits, the results were disastrous (images 4, 5, and 6). I realized that the issue was due to the type of boards, which made me angry and shattered my morale, as I had wasted a lot of money. However, I managed to resolve the issue using the method I explained above, which works regardless of the board type. It doesn’t require scrubbing or cleaning the boards and is not dependent on specific timing or temperature.

author: CHAMPIGNON
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2025, 08:55:23 am
content: and

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2025, 02:13:17 pm
content: Quote from: CHAMPIGNON on January 17, 2025, 08:53:23 amSuccessful PCB etching demands clean copper — scrubbing and cleaning the boards is not optional. Chances are your second boards were actually fine, just not as clean. No matter what type of resist you apply (toner transfer, your toner method, dry film, wet resist, permanent marker, …) the board must be clean or you won’t get a clean etch. Even just fingerprints can leave oil that causes the copper to etch more slowly in that spot.Making successful PCBs at home requires care and precision. You can’t just cut corners (by not cleaning) and expect good results. That is why you always scrub the board with a scrubber (like scotchbrite) and soap, then rinse, then clean with alcohol, and then handle only by the edges, ideally with gloves.Also, irons suck for toner transfer because the heat and pressure is not consistent. Especially if your boards aren’t 100% flat, which is normal. Using a laminator is a much, much better option. (I got my laminator for free from local classifieds. A professional model that would have cost over $500 new.)I’ll be blunt and say that both of those examples of your toner transfer look terrible. It’s definitely possible to get much better results from that method. It does depend on the printer model, though: some printers use toner that just doesn’t work well for transfer. Others work beautifully.

author: CHAMPIGNON
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2025, 04:17:41 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 17, 2025, 02:13:17 pmYes, I agree with you that cleaning is essential. However, in the method shown in the video at the beginning of the discussion, I deliberately avoided any type of cleaning (the board was dirty) to test my new method under abnormal conditions. Despite the line width being 0.5mm, no one said it was bad. I know you are honest and not hypocritical, and I truly appreciate this quality that sets you apart.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2025, 05:14:33 pm
content: You can read Don Lancaster's Hardware Hacker about PCB etchinghttps://www.tinaja.com/glib/hackar1.pdfpage 113 of the PDF or 24.1 in the document pagination

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2025, 07:06:45 pm
content: Quote from: CHAMPIGNON on January 17, 2025, 04:17:41 pmHow could we? All we had was a blurry video. To judge the quality we’d need some nice, sharp photos or scans of the etched board.I also don’t see the point in testing a process under completely unrealistic conditions. There’s no reason why a personwouldn’tclean their boards before starting, and very good reasons why you definitely should clean them every time.Quote from: CHAMPIGNON on January 17, 2025, 04:17:41 pmI think everyone in this thread has been equally honest and open, and I think that is true of nearly all members of this forum.

author: CHAMPIGNON
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2025, 07:59:48 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 17, 2025, 07:06:45 pmAre the following pictures sufficient?where track width =0.5MM and clearance =0.5mm

author: phansel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2025, 02:57:51 am
content: Quote from: tooki on January 15, 2025, 07:41:13 pmI'm sure on the whole you're correct, but "very few" is not zero. Try not to be so discouraging!

author: CHAMPIGNON
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2025, 06:04:48 am
content: Quote from: phansel on January 18, 2025, 02:57:51 amYes, many people dislike it when others complete their work, as it makes them feel prouder when they succeed.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2025, 02:02:46 pm
content: Quote from: phansel on January 18, 2025, 02:57:51 amIt was neither discouraging nor encouraging, I was simply correcting a statement I believe to be factually untrue. None of that changes any of the evaluation of the method proposed here.