Chipped capacitor (???) on MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4GB - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: kbi
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 08:16:46 pm
content: I brough dirt cheap damaged MSI GTX 970 gaming and i know that its missing a capacitor.This is how it looks:better quality of the pcb found online:The card works, but when i install the drivers, strange things happens and in the device manager i can read that 'Windows has stopped this device because it has reported problems. (Code 43)'Other than missing this cap, card looks fine so i guess thats the problem.Can anyone help in identifying the missing component?Thanks!

author: llkiwi2006
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 08:43:46 pm
content: The clean looking pad suggests it's unpopulated from the factory instead of having being ripped off later. The capacitor is most likely not the source of your problem. If you can, a good diagnostics step would be to try the board with other computers, and see if it's still the same issue. Also in my experience linux usually gives much better error messages, so if you can get a linux live cd running, you can run dmesg to get the kernel log.

author: kbi
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 08:46:51 pm
content: i posted 2 photos, have you seen them? it should be there, its chipped

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 08:56:31 pm
content: Missing capacitor rarely causes any problems. You can clearly see that memory devices are different, so they are different revisions of the board. The pads look clean, and I would agree that this cap was never there.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 09:06:43 pm
content: Quote from: kbi on February 23, 2018, 08:46:51 pmIt is interesting that you are bothered about C573 which was likely never there in the first place, as others have pointed out.Unpopulated components are completely normal - the same PCB can be used for multiple revisions of the product and each requires different components populated. It is done in that way to save production costs - instead of designing a board for each variant that is different only by a few components they make one common for all of them and leave out the parts that are not needed when populating the board. The other photo you have posted is exactly such a different variant - using Samsung chips vs Elpida on your board.However, the empty pads for C566 & C569 just above and to the left in that photo which actually do have solder and what possibly looks like a flux residue on them (i.e. someone has been messing with them if that's flux - that doesn't come from factory like that) don't bother you?

author: kbi
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 09:24:57 pm
content: guys im telling you its been there but its chipped...https://images78.fotosik.pl/801/90c0d7450ceae1a7.jpghttp://www.frazpc.pl/artykuly/927148-4/nvidia-geforce-gtx-970---test-niereferencyjnych-modelihttp://tech-legend.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/DSCF6913.jpggoogle for msi gtx 970, any source you want. i just need to find an replacement for it.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 09:51:36 pm
content: It may have been factory defect on this unit.Put any 10uF 50V ceramic capacitor, if you want. It will not change a thing.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 10:31:13 pm
content: Quote from: kbi on February 23, 2018, 08:46:51 pmThe fact that it's present on another graphics card does not mean it was assembled on all revisions or batches of them. Also I doubt it's abscence may cause any issues.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 12:21:26 am
content: Quote from: kbi on February 23, 2018, 09:24:57 pmI'm quite certain you're wrong.What makes you suspect that from an electrical perspective, one missing capacitor would cause the issues you're seeing?I do know that the 970 had issues with not properly utilizing the full 4GB of memory and there was some kind of class-action settlement about the "defect" but I don't recall any pervasive BGA issues or anything like that affecting those cards, but I highly doubt that any minor capacitor issues are causing your card to misbehave. It is much more likely that it has a defective chip somewhere or something.

author: SirAlucard
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 04:59:41 am
content: To me the upper pad does look a little strange, it doesn't look quite as shiny, maybe get a better picture of it? I mean you purchased the card as a broken unit, so you had to expect that it was probably broken. I'd say check the capacitance of the chip next to where it is, good chance it's the same value. Replace the one you think is broken, and if all else fails, your still left with a broken card.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 10:22:10 am
content: Quote from: drussell on February 24, 2018, 12:21:26 am970 (and the entire 9xx) series is also notorious for voltage regulators overheating (the indicated GPU temp is normal!) and various failures related to that - screen going black after a while, system lockups, what not. Had one fail on me like that not a long time ago.One missing decoupling capacitor out of the hundreds on that board is not going to make absolutely any difference.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 10:26:06 am
content: Quote from: kbi on February 23, 2018, 09:24:57 pmThose pictures are totally irrelevant - even the first one you have shown shows adifferent revisionof the board, using physically different components. Unless you are 100% sure all the silicon on those boards is identical and it is the identical revision/model (no, "MSI GTX 970 4GB "is notsufficient to conclude that!), you are literally chasing your own tail.But anyhow, you are obviously convinced of your own truth already, so I am not quite sure why were you even posting here in the first place if you don't want to listen what people tell you.I also quite don't get the idea that a newbie not having much clue about how the hw works (and electronics in general) buys a known defective GPU and hopes to fix it?Defective graphic cards are pretty much unfixable even by most people specializing in board repair - there is no documentation for these things at all so apart from checking whether the device has correct voltages and the fan spins you can't do much else with it. And if the GPU itself is fubared, good luck trying to source a replacement and actually replacing it ...

author: kbi
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 04:17:58 pm
content: jesus christ so ur asking why am i posting here? because i need a help of identifying the missing part. thats THE QUESTION I ASKED. im not asking if there is a missing part BECAUSE IM SURE IT IS, ITS BEEN THERE, IT GOT CHIPPED OF AND NOW ITS MISSING, ITS THERE OR EVERY MSI GTX970 GAMING, is this THAT HARD to understand? memory used are not exect the same chips, but the capacitor should be there. for some reason ur trying to tell me that it shouldn't be there, even trough u can do some reasearch to see EVERY SINGLE REVISION of this card has capaciton in this place. even the previous owner clearly stated that he chipped it off.so:a) ur right, and i am a lucky owner of one of a kind MSI GTX970 that's came out of the factory without C573 while every single one found online have it, and the previous owner is lying to me that he chipped it, for idk what reasonb) im right, and ur giving misleading, offtop posts instead of focusing on my actual question, not even trying to helpand u calls me a newb, geeeeeeeeeeez

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 04:40:59 pm
content: Calm down.So the situation is this. You have a graphics card - one that is rather old (because they were stopped being produced a few years ago, as well as what looks like corrosion on solder joints in the photo you provided - signs of many many heat/cooling cycles ie: its been used a lot, because graphics cards regularly go above 70C in use).You have seen pads where you believe a part has chipped off, but as many cards have unpopulated parts, some here have concluded that it wasn't there in the first pace based off other pictures of similar cards, and you wish to know what cap it was and what to replace it with. Others have stated even if it was chipped off it is very unlikely that this is the cause of the cards failure.I'm inclined to agree with the above. Graphics cards are extremely complicated (that isn't patronizing, very few engineers will ever design anything even remotely close) and tend to be run at their limits - often getting very hot with hundreds/thousands of heating cycles over their life time. The PCB can warp, solder joints can crack, thermal paste can dry out leading to hotspots and over heating etc.. there are plenty of failure modes, and one small decoupling capacitor is extremely unlikely to affect its operation to the point where it will fail.However... if you are convinced the missing cap is the problem, then by all means, replace it, and if it "fixes" the problem, then we can all eat humble pieFirstly measure its size, as you want a cap that can actually fit on the pads. Looks like an 0805 to me but its hard to tell because gfx cards these days are so massive. You could probably get them in small quantities, so maybe 1uF @ 25V.Next is the hard part, soldering it on. Unlike many two-layer boards, graphics cards (as well as motherboards, and almost all complex computer hardware) have multiple layers - many layers of copper traces, power planes, signals etc.. that gives them wonderful thermal conductivity - this is also used to spread the heat generated from the GPU and the on-board power supply to the whole board. The upshot of this is that when you try to solder to it, it will spread the heat from your iron outwards making it extremely difficult to bring the pads up to temperature. You will need a high wattage iron, or a hot air station with a narrow nozzle (and you will need to mask off the rest of the board).You *might* be able to "fudge it" with a cheap soldering iron and get just enough solder to melt to hold the new part on the board, at least enough for you to test the idea that this missing cap is the cause of its failure.tl:dr; You'll need some 0805 caps. A relatively good (as in 50w+) iron or hot air, and some thin solder to put the replacement part on. And then it is very doubtful this will make a difference to the cards condition.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 04:48:18 pm
content: Quote from: kbi on February 23, 2018, 09:24:57 pmAre you saying the original capacitor was removed because it had a chip in it, i.e. damage to the capacitor? Do you have this capacitor with a chip in it?It will only be a supply decoupling cap, possibly the same value as the one right next to it and the two further down. Finding the original value will be difficult, but the exact value of supply decoupling caps rarely matters, and it's unlikely to be the cause of the issue you are seeing.If it makes you feel better, you could de-solder one of the other caps and measure its value and fit a new part of suitable voltage rating.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 05:25:29 pm
content: Quote from: kbi on February 24, 2018, 04:17:58 pmYouhavebeen given the answer to that. De-solder one of the other same-looking decoupling capacitors, measure the value and replace it. Alternatively, get a selection of capacitors, they are available very inexpensively and any ones not needed can be used for other projects or repairs. You can then try various values, say a .1uf, a .47 uF, 1uF and a 10uF in that spot and test the card.We're just pointing out that this course of action is likely a futile effort since the missing capacitor is almost assuredly not the main fault with the card.QuoteWhat people are saying is thatregardlessof whether that capacitor was there in the first place (which it obviously was if the previous ownertoldyou it was there) it is not going to fix the underlying problem. It is highly unlikely that missing one capacitor, which is likely being used for decoupling, will cause the symptoms you are seeing.QuoteYes, theyare trying to help youby trying to help you understand that the capacitor is likely a red herring... you're probably going down completely the wrong path.Quote from: kbi on February 23, 2018, 08:16:46 pmThisis where we all believe you have made an incorrect conclusion. Just because the rest of the board "looks fine" doesnotmean that the missing capacitor is the problem. Quite the opposite. The missing capacitor is almost guaranteed tonotbe the problem.It is very simple to find out for sure... replace it and see if it magically starts to work.Good luck!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 06:00:26 pm
content: Quote from: kbi on February 24, 2018, 04:17:58 pmIf it was there to begin with, it looks like desoldered rather than chipped off. If capacitor is broken off, usually some remains of it's terminals are left on the pads. What the reason to lie about? To fool the buyer and sell for a lot more money by pretending it's an easy fix. One of the most common instances of this is bending a few CPU socket pins on a motherboard which is faulty in some other way. Buyer will think it's a bargain, and that straightening them will be an easy fix while actual fault is something like faulty chipset.This is how torn off MLCC looks like:

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 06:00:30 pm
content: Quote from: kbi on February 24, 2018, 04:17:58 pmAnd you believe that the previous owner would sell you a perfectly good card with only a missing $0.01 capacitor for a bargain instead of trying to solder it back to fix it? Especially, if it is as you claim, he "chipped" it off - in that case he has to have some equipment for doing it because those pads are completely clean. Unlike the two other sets of pads which have solder on them but no component and which should be unpopulated and clean based on the pictures of the other cards you have provided.I am much more inclined to think that the card has failed and the previous owner has tried to "repair" it. And butchered it in the process, possibly with a heat gun, knocking components out of alignment/off and reflowing solder on the empty pads, which gives it away (the solder won't melt like that under normal use and it certainly didn't come like that from the factory). And finally found a sucker to buy the wreck from him - "look, it is only a missing capacitor!".

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 06:04:02 pm
content: The most common faults in a graphics card are often related to the main BGA chipset, which is essentially unrepairable at a hobbyist level.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 06:06:14 pm
content: Quote from: Nerull on February 24, 2018, 06:04:02 pmFixed it for you. If the main chip is faulty, the card is trash, the repair would cost more than a new card. Of course, not counting various heatgun wielding Youtube specialists who will claim otherwise ...

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 06:54:12 pm
content: I mean, if you had one of these and you could somehow source a new chip, maybe:

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 07:36:48 pm
content: I see this thread has descended into what this thread describes:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/beginners-don't-run-away-please!/The op is asking about a "missing" capacitor, and has been told several times this is extremely unlikely to be the cause of the faulty graphics card. He does not need people talking about expensive equipment to re-ball a BGA chip. It serves no purpose and will possibly just put the OP off asking any more questions here.Again, no-one is suggesting we say 'yes that's the problem, fix that and it'll work!' but simply saying it over and over is pointless. The OP asked the forum to identify the component - we have (0805 MLCC - ceramic cap) although we cannot know its actual value, and even ways to solder it back on. Lets not pad the topic out with tangents, "beginner bashing" or anecdotes about how people fixed graphics cards.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 07:53:15 pm
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on February 24, 2018, 07:36:48 pmHe was not bashed, although really deserves it for being arrogant fool.Quote from: kbi on February 24, 2018, 04:17:58 pm

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2018, 10:28:53 am
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on February 24, 2018, 07:36:48 pmSo you think it shouldn't be permitted to point out that graphics card faults are typically beyond repair?

author: SirAlucard
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2018, 12:39:36 pm
content: Quote from: Nerull on February 25, 2018, 10:28:53 amThis is absolutely true, as there could be anything wrong with a GPU as it's a highly sensitive piece of equipment. However do also note that I remember people modding their GPUs to also allow higher voltages for overclocking. So if he is set on thinking this is the problem, I would encourage him to do the repair, and report back his findings. However I don't think he should act like a 12 year old child when someone tells him that he's probably wrong. Personally I'd love nothing more than him to do the fix, and tell us how we're wrong instead of this silly bickering back and forth.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2018, 03:05:19 pm
content: Quote from: Nerull on February 25, 2018, 10:28:53 amI'll have to quote myself:QuoteI didn't say it "shouldn't be permitted" that people point out what they think is the real problem. My point was that it has already been pointed out several times, so more posts saying the same thing over and over doesn't get anyone anywhere. It only serves to alienate the OP. Until he replies, I'm not sure why people are adding "yeah, its not that, you'll never fix it" over and over.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 25, 2018, 03:21:20 pm
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on February 25, 2018, 03:05:19 pmAlienate? You sound as if the problem (and therefore fix) becomes any different if different opinions appear in the comments. Same suggestion from several people means there is consensus about the problem and adds more weight to it. Op on the other hand decided that he already knows what's the problem (despite lacking experience) and don't want anything that suggests otherwise. If he had any experience, he would just desolder a cap nearby and measure capacitance. It also should be noted that nobody here owns him anything. So he should be thankful for receiving suggestions solely by good will of others. Yet he became arrogant and don't want to hear what people say.