Doug Ford: Plantilium PHG-150 LED Grow Light - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2016, 08:49:56 am
content: My mate Doug Ford who many of you will have seen on the blog has an Indiegogo, check it out:https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/plantilium-phg-150-led-grow-light--3#/Because it's Doug you know it's going to be good.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2016, 10:21:57 am
content: Flexible funding.* sleemanj raises one eyebrow

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2016, 11:11:06 am
content: Indiegogo, flexible goal...?

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2016, 11:49:43 am
content: And $599USDfor one bulb! Smells like growphoolery to me!I want to know who the market audience is for this? Drug lords and ... ?

author: hayatepilot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2016, 01:00:22 pm
content: I'm suprised that plants don't need any green light for growing...But I'm sure he did the research.This will be most definitely be used for growing Cannabis. Hopefully only where it is legal...Greetings

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2016, 01:01:01 pm
content: Still waiting on plasma to go mainstream. (http://luxim.resilient.lighting/products/grow-lighting)$550 for a light? sheesh. Need someone to do cost analsysis for a 600w MH/HPS to see break even point.Skeptical about 10,000 hours too, psu always fail before then.Plenty of 'coral' growers testing the waters with led, without raising eyebrows.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2016, 01:12:06 pm
content: Quote from: hayatepilot on July 20, 2016, 01:00:22 pmPlants don't absorb green, that's why they are green!Chlorophyll a and chlorophyll b both have two absorption peaks, two at the red end of the spectrum (640 and 660 nm) and two at the blue end (430 and 450 nm). Grow lights are usually a 50/50 mix of red and blue LEDs close to these wavelengths, regular white light emits a lot of colors that plants won't get much use of - and thus be less efficient at making plants grow for every watt.

author: StuUK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2016, 01:34:14 pm
content: I could definitely see a market for this product, surprised he's chosen to go with crowdfunding in some respects...

author: hayatepilot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2016, 01:46:20 pm
content: Quote from: nowlan on July 20, 2016, 01:01:01 pmAssuming the 150W LED provides the same growth as a 600w MH then the Calculation is easy:(550$ (LED cost) - 100$ (MH lamp cost))/0.2$ (cost per kWh)*1/(0.6kW-0.15kW)= 5000hSo after 5000 hours the LED is cheaper. Not bad at all!Greetings

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2016, 01:49:04 pm
content: Quote from: nowlan on July 20, 2016, 01:01:01 pmCheap drivers will pop before 10k hours but something like Meanwell/Inventronics/Philips are rated at 100k.Whether they actually hit that figure remains to be seen but even at half that an LED fitting will have paid it's costs several times over. On projects we are seeing <1% failure rates on good quality drivers in industrial environments some of which are approaching 5 years now.I'd love to see a blog or Amphour with Doug on discussing this, driver choice, spectrum etc. Also at what point in efficiency and energy costs do grow lights become practical and economic for commercial or hobby farming of foodstuffs?

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2016, 02:05:19 pm
content: Quote from: hayatepilot on July 20, 2016, 01:46:20 pmIn our plant pathology lab we use 400W HPS bulbs that cost $14 each, electricity is 0.04 USD/kWh. The bulbs have an MTBF of 20,000 hours. And I'm sure they cover a much bigger area than one of those LEDs that are spotlight-shaped. (400W GE 85379 are $9/ea and MTBF of 24,000 hours).We did "pilot-project" with using LEDs as grow lights (in cooperation with the University of Oslo:http://www.nhm.uio.no/fakta/botanikk/nyheter/2013/hvorfor-lilla-vekstlys.html), results were "good" - but the plants develops darker leaves, grows in a more compact fashion and grows slower as compared with the HPS lamps (don't have any values on how much slower).

author: hayatepilot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2016, 02:27:46 pm
content: 4ct per kWh?? Thats insanely cheap!In my country it's at least 4 times more, even for big industrial customers.I've assumed 100$ for the conventional bulb including a reflector, driver ect.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2016, 02:40:44 pm
content: Quote from: hayatepilot on July 20, 2016, 02:27:46 pmBlessed with a lot of hydroelectric power I guess! I'm surprised Switzerland isn't?

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 21, 2016, 01:01:40 am
content: I wish him success, however I think it's going to be an impossible task based on his price point.He does a comparison with metal halide and white LED but doesn't say anything about why his product is better than the (literally) thousands of other brands of red/blue LED grow lights in the world. There are lots of established name brand grow lights for a much lower price-per-watt point than these (many of which are also fanless), so I'm curious what the differentiator is on this one? Most of the big brands have been touting custom LED wavelengths and high-end LED's too.Then there is the avalanche of Chinese junk on the market that is so cheap that even if it's not great quality, it is very hard to compete against.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 21, 2016, 01:29:17 am
content: Quote from: hayatepilot on July 20, 2016, 01:00:22 pmThey don't I have had Aquariums and live aquatic plants and they are in the right wavelengths for plant growing.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2016, 03:16:37 am
content: Quote from: hayatepilot on July 20, 2016, 01:00:22 pmDoug Ford that we know of here is brother of Rob Ford (RIP) , the former crack smoking mayor of Toronto.

author: Plantilium
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 21, 2016, 08:18:25 am
content: Hi All,Aaron here. I'm happy to answer any questions you might have about the PHG-150PS. Doug is sitting opposite me. He'll really be answering the questions....

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 21, 2016, 08:35:09 am
content: Quote from: Plantilium on July 21, 2016, 08:18:25 amWho do you see as your target audience?

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2016, 09:06:16 am
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on July 21, 2016, 08:35:09 amFellows who want to grow lettuce and have a concrete bunker without a meter on their electricity supplyA house a couple of doors from a friend was rented out, it is in a good area of (South County) Dublin . They thought a nice Chinese family was living there and would wave when they saw them. One day they arrived home to discover the house raided by the police. It had been converted into a grow house. He was in it afterwards and it was destroyed, electricity bypassed, ventilation ducting cut through walls and the ceiling, water from the hydroponics allowed to leak everywhere, it looked as if they just watered the plants upstairs and allowed the water to drip through the ceiling to the plants down stairs. The house had to be rebuilt, just keeping the 4 exterior walls and roof.Back on topic:I have no interest in such things but Indiegogo + Flexible funding + high price =

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 21, 2016, 11:07:16 am
content: Quote from: hayatepilot on July 20, 2016, 01:46:20 pmThat's the kicker. Closer to 25c here for power, or a lot more if you have a smart meter during peak hours. I assume these things run 24/7?And if you are a professional (or serious) grower running 24/7, you don't want to be buying Alibaba or Ebay crap.Quality costs money, and I'd be very surprised if the pro model lights aren't the same price point as Doug's.

author: StuUK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2016, 11:23:09 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 21, 2016, 11:07:16 amIndeed, I'm pretty sure there is a market (and I'm referring to legal commercial growers of flora and fauna not pot!!!) for these but I'm still not convinced that Indiegogo is going to attract that particular audience, but hey nothing ventured nothing gained.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2016, 11:27:04 am
content: At least if you get it off Doug, you'll know a lot of thought and experience and brainpower has gone into the design, so you will get your moneys worth.I myself bought a light off him about 3 years ago, it's on right now.

author: Plantilium
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 21, 2016, 01:02:23 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on July 21, 2016, 08:35:09 amAs per the video (if you've seen it). Its a high end product. hence the price points. it really is the Ferrari of grow lights. I had no choice in the matter btwDoug of course spent hours researching and testing numerous combinations of LEDs from various manufacturers. The OSRAM's were the best on the day. If we do find a market i'm expecting it to be with commercial growers. in saying that there's nothing stopping the do-it-yourself crowd from getting involved. time will tell i guess.

author: Plantilium
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 21, 2016, 01:12:34 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on July 21, 2016, 09:06:16 amWe think the price is reasonable, plus given the quality we're not making a whole lot of money.... I do note your comment re the flexi-funding. It appears to be a common theme on the thread. If you're interest i'm building the KStarter as we speak. Given that we already have 10 units ready for sale we don't anticipate any issues with the KStarter registration. Unfortunately this is my second job. Only so many hours in the day....The KStarter should be ready in the next week or so.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2016, 05:32:33 pm
content: If you already have production units, you're *definitely* not indiegogo material.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 21, 2016, 05:53:16 pm
content: Will you release a picture of the assembled PCB?

author: Plantilium
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 31, 2016, 06:19:53 am
content: Hi Everyone,We just launched our Kickstarter Campaign with a fixed funding goal;https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/204146558/introducing-the-plantilium-phg-150-led-grow-lightIf you're interest, I'll be waiving the postage fee for anyone who quotes this post*. If you have any questions about the kickstarter let me know*postage fee will be directly recredited to your account after the campaign endsthanks,Aaron

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2016, 06:22:33 am
content: Good luck.

author: Dago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 12:02:31 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 21, 2016, 11:07:16 amPlant lights are not run 24/7, plants only mainly grow when it is dark so they always have a dark period too (like 8-12 hours, depends on the plant).

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 06:46:23 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 21, 2016, 11:07:16 amI have clients in the horticultural industry, and yes professional quality grow lights are in the same ballpark price wise.From what I've seen though, they aren't often used commercially for mass growing, but mostly in research.

author: Xenoamor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 12:13:59 pm
content: I can see cannabis growers wanting these to avoid this:

author: Srbel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 11:49:43 am
content: Quote from: Plantilium on July 31, 2016, 06:19:53 amOnly 5.000 dollars goal??? For such an expensive product? O.o

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 10:59:02 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 21, 2016, 11:07:16 amPrepare to be very surprisedThere are dozens of high-quality grow light manufacturers using top-shelf LED's and with established name brands. Companies like Advanced LED, ProMax, Chill, California LED, Transcend and many others. The price point is around $2-4 per watt for high end lights like these, with most of them clustered around the $2-3 range. These are made-in-USA products using Osram or Cree LED's from major companies with lots of data to back up their performance and multi-year warranties.The Plantilium light is $3.60/watt if you buy in at the KS price, which is 36% off, meaning an $850USD retail price, or over $5.60/watt. Osram themselves sell grow lights using their LED's and you can buy a 17W Osram PAR lamp bulb on Amazon for $40 with free shipping - so the Osram-made lights are cheaper than the special KS price of this one. Compare also to California LED (just one I picked from the above list). Their 880W lights are $1750, $1.99/watt and free shipping @ Amazon and a 3-year warranty. Why would a customer pay double (and that's the introductory price) for an untested product from a new company and wait weeks/months to get it?They talk about the LED spectrum, but every company is using custom blends of LED colors and touting their output spectrums, so this is nothing different. Some are actually offering tunable spectrums to let you choose the light output over the life cycle of the plans (for grow vs. blooming).They talk about the silent aspect of the light. IMO, this is an irrelevant point. The light is oriented towards commercial growers, so fan noise isn't an issue. Furthermore, an actively cooled light will almost always run cooler than a passively cooled one, and temperature is the enemy of electronics, so I think most buyers would rather have a fan and have the whole unit run cooler.Next issue is that this is a "spotlight" with a circular beam pattern. Nobody grows in a circle, which means you need more lights to cover your square grow area, and you will have alot of wasted light spilling over the sides. There's a reason most all other grow lights are rectangular.They tout a 100k lifespan, but no way will the driver last that long. Sylvania rates their drivers at 15k hours. I think any commercial organization is going to know the 100k ratings are bogus LED ratings and, IMO, it detracts from the honesty of the whole pitch.They talk about their light being scalable. Scalable how? Because you can just buy multiple units? How is that different than any other light on the market? How is it a feature? There are lights that can be connected together to make them easy to control. That is a scalable feature. Calling this thing scalable is dishonest.They compare light output vs HID lights. The HID ship sailed long ago... that was a good marketing angle 10 years ago maybe, but nowadays, everyone knows about LED. The question is not why should someone buy this over HID, but why should they choose this unit over the countless other products on the market.They tout the compact design. What relevance does that have in a commercial environment?It probably seems like I am trying to shit on the product and the effort. But I am not. I have done some designs of grow lights for customers, and I've been asked many times to do others (which I turn down because it's always people who think they should be able to make a super high quality grow light for 10% of what the others sell for). I am close friends with a few people who work managing some of the largest pot growing outfits in the southwest USA (where it's legal). I know how expensive these things are to design and manufacture, so I understand why the price is high. The problem is that the biggest single line item cost is the LED's. The housing often winds up being a close second. These are two parts that you don't get substantial savings on until your volume goes way up. Which means a new seller will never be able to compete with the established guys on price, because they are ordering Osram LED's 100 reels at a time and have rock bottom contractual pricing.The points I listed above are why there are zero backers on IGG and only 2 backers on KS. There's no reason to buy this light.My advice to Doug and his people (if they are reading this)... you need to dramatically re-think your feature list and your sales pitch. Your target market is commercial growers. The fan noise, 'scalability', compact size and plug-and-play nature of the light are irrelevant to them. They also know all about LED's, so there's no point in telling them why they're better than HID. You need to differentiate between the other LED offerings on the market. You should:-Tout efficiency. I am not sure if you can be the most efficient provider, but if you can (or at least get close), then you can sell the customers on long term savings vs other LED makers-Have a modular design. If you can make a light that is field-upgradable, people would be interested. Shouldn't be too hard to do. LED tech changes rapidly, so if your driver and LED engine and optics are modular, then you not only can sell based on your lights being repairable, but also being upgradable as more efficient drivers come out or new LED's come out.-Have some kind of high-tech whiz-bang features for controllability. There are companies (I think Avago is one?) that make full spectrum light sensors. Some companies, Cypress Semi for one, have libraries for MCU's that interface with these sensors to evaluate the light output spectrum and offer real time control. Lights change over time. Different color LED's degrade differently. Being able to measure what's going on with the light at the output and either correcting it or at least being able to report back to the user would be a big feature, IMO. In addition, perhaps some plug-in sensors that can be spaced throughout the grow area and offer feedback to the unit so that it can increase/decrease output of the various emitters in that area to create uniform and spectrum-correct light across the grow area would be good. And/or features like temperature monitoring, failure monitoring and the ability to send notifications to a control system or maintenance tech when something goes south. I know the commercial growers I know deal with this.. they have tens of thousands of plants being grown and many hundreds of lights and every day, something goes wrong and it can be hard to monitor it all.I type fast but this post still took 10 minutes.. Take it for what it's worth. But as designed and manufactured and advertised, this light isn't going to sell.

author: jayco242
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2016, 09:34:04 pm
content: Hi,i would say that this product is not going to be successful for a few reasons:-1. Not enough blue light in the spectrum. A 90/10 split red-blue is not efficient2. The light unit is very heavy at 3.8kg. Should have used an external psu3. Should have designed smaller units more cost effective to sell4. Very late for this kind of product. Market is very crowded alreadyJason