Electric car charger design and manufacture done by Government agencies. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 07:41:52 pm
content: Every country in the world should set up its own Government owned Design and Manufacture centre for designing/manufacturing electric car chargers for its own country’s citizens.This will prevent imports of huge amounts of dodgy electric car chargers by dodgy “middle men”. Such dodgy chargers will result in disappointed customers, and tons and tons of scrap electronics…since these car chargers are big items.These car chargers are high power items, and taking shortcuts in their design , to save money , will result in disappointed customers, as well as loads and loads of scrap electronics. As such, the governments of countries should take over the design, to ensure that their country is not flooded with loads of super-cheap electric car chargers , which break down prematurely and get scrapped. For example, these units will comprise fans which will fail because dodgy designers put cheap fans in them. However, a government design agency would ensure that the right fan was used, and also ensure that units which had stopped working simply because their fan had stopped working are recycled by having their fan replaced…….ie the whole unit not scrapped just because its fan had failed. This is just one example of the tasks of such a government agency towards providing good car chargers to its citizens.If this kind of Government agency is not set up, then loads of dodgy “middle men” will set themselves up to import loads of dodgy Far Eastern electric car chargers, making themselves mulit-millionaires overnight, and deluging their own country with tons and tons of scrap electronics. This must not be allowed to happen. Tariffs must be placed on any electric car charger that has not been purchased from the Government owned agency.If the demand for electric car chargers outstrips the government owned agency’s ability to supply electric car chargers, then the government agency will import car chargers. But it will only do so if the schematic and hardware is provided first, so that the design of the charger can be checked out. Any profit that the government agency makes by importing car chargers, will be transparently payed into the countries tax system….ie no dodgy “middle men” will become multi-millionaires overnight by importing lots of rubbish electric car chargers.Are we all in agreement that the above must happen?

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 08:03:09 pm
content: just things were done in the Eastern Bloc before the end of the cold war, what a great idea /s

author: mmagin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 08:06:14 pm
content: How is this different from any other mains-connected electrical product?Also, given that most EV chargers are just a fancy GFCI (RCD) and some serial communications to say what charge rates are acceptable, I expect the main ways they fail prematurely are just things like poor connectors, relays, etc.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 08:09:11 pm
content: Yes, because as we all know:- We must get rid of this free market crap. What good has that ever done us, eh?- Clearly everything the Government does is high quality, top notch and efficiently executed.If there's one thing the Government could be more involved in is enforcing existing standards. Other than that, I hope and prey they keep their noses out of it.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 08:09:24 pm
content: Quote from: treez on September 04, 2018, 07:41:52 pmAbsolutely not in agreement.Assuming you're talking about the EVSE (the actual "charger" is on-board the car), it's a fairly simple device, and I see no reason to think that handing a monopoly over the design and manufacture of EVSEs to the government will result in a better outcome than the free market.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 08:15:06 pm
content: How did treez learn to be so clueless? Is there a special school you can go to for this?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 08:18:03 pm
content: Yeah because governments are sooo good at doing things right when it comes to anything technical...To suggest they participate in manufacture of a complex product is idiotically naive and a recipie for disaster. If nothing else, by the time they'd decided anything, half the BOM would be obsolete.What's so special about car chargers anyway..?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 08:19:08 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on September 04, 2018, 08:15:06 pmI'm increasingly thinking he's just trolling to wind people up - if not he probably needs a major reality check...

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 08:19:18 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 04, 2018, 08:08:14 pmhttps://youtu.be/qy9pltNa0rY

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 08:26:56 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 04, 2018, 08:18:03 pm

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 08:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: treez on September 04, 2018, 07:41:52 pmHmm, the last electrical device designed by a government agency in the US was likely the "electric chair" to execute convicts. Not a great precedent.(Well, actually, it might be the NSA crypto gear, which wasn't too bad.)Jon

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 03:44:59 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 04, 2018, 07:45:35 pmExactly! OP, have you ever seen a charger that was designed and built by a "government agency"? NOT a contractor but a real government agency? I have and it wasn't pretty! The government designs chargers about as well as they do anything else. Which is to say very poorly!

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 02:16:19 pm
content: I disagreeHere's why-People will re-purpose unused chargers for something else, if they remain unsoldPeople need to learn, the power inputting systems like powersupply needs to be super reliable for their electronics to work longer, be it the hard way like, computers blowing up.After one or two bad things happen to a single product, the customers will soon realize the company is crap and lead to it's death.Free market man. It corrects itselfGovernment is inefficient. Look at brexit. UK's surveillance and internet censorship (i I looked at your id's flag and thus giving examples you can relate to)People who disagree with above things can move to Russia.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 04:44:04 pm
content: If technical development had been regulated by government, this question would be moot--- technology would never have developed enough for Treez to even ponder this.Ineptitude in government far exceeds any glimmer of brilliance that may shine through the layers of false self-importance and corruption.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 04:55:36 pm
content: The only role govts should have is setting and enforcing safety standards. Even this they sometimes go overboard ( CE including EMC immunity for example).They will almost always be the least competent to manufacture anything - the Soviet Union proved that.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 05:13:49 pm
content: People making a distinction between "market" and "government" has always been peculiar to me.The government is always for sale, for some price. It is on the market.If the market demands controls, laws will be enacted, and tweaked and added until the demand is balanced.This is why we have laws concerning EMC, product safety* and so on.*Actually, we don't even have much (if any??) law about that. It's more if you want to get anything from your insurance company in case of disaster, you better be using equipment they trust -- i.e., carrying a UL mark (or other NRTL, for the US).If a shitty charger passes UL and FCC, it might be shitty, but at least it probably won't burn down your house, or if it does, you're more likely to get a settlement out of it.Beyond that, if you demand lower risk, contact your congresspersons and ask them to enact laws that raise the cost of bargain-basement electronics. I'm sure they'll help you out with that! /sTim

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 07:18:06 pm
content: Thanks,I should have probably said, that well run countries like America and Germany probably dont need this kind of Government intervention.Americans and Germans have a natural sense of comraderie with their fellow countrymen and dont seek to screw their fellow citizens like happens in UK.I have experience with a company that sold 5-10kw electric drives….with this type of kit, there is lots you can do to increase the lifetime…but it costs………There is lots you can do to save money and create a cheaper product that will fail quickly….……loads of cheap dodgy chargers will be imported by middle men and create loads of scrap if the dodgy stuff isn’t blocked by tariffs etc.When I worked with 5-10kw electric drives, so many used to fail (because we made them cheap), that we used to sell the customer “contracts to supply” electric drives, instead of selling the drives by volume…this was because they failed so often, that it was cheaper to just get the customer on a 12 month contract, and within that 12 months , we would just replace every failed electric drive for free…. As you know, this is what its like in the high power game, the kit can fail in droves when you take cost shortcuts….we did take cost shortcuts, because it was cheaper to just keep replacing the failed ones and make them cheaply.Germany is the model country......where the German government secretly forces the German competitor companys to teamwork with each other….The great German car companies, BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Volkswagen….are all just one company in reality…sharing trade secrets with each other……by teamworking together their individual strengths are greater. The German government put “mixer staff” into these car companies, to make sure that trade secrets are shared…they also encourage BMW engineers to leave and go to Mercedes etc…part of the knowledge sharing….and look how effective this is.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 07:34:12 pm
content: Quote from: treez on September 05, 2018, 07:18:06 pmyou should try a career in comedy, your writing is hilarious

author: mmagin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 07:54:40 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 04, 2018, 08:08:14 pmSure, but I assume the cheap crappy ones that fail prematurely aren't the high power fast chargers that run off >250V.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 08:53:22 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on September 05, 2018, 05:13:49 pmUnfortunately, there is a lot of stuff on the market that bears a UL label, but was actually NOT certified by them. They have not come up with a system to control the fraudulent use of fake UL labels. If you go to WalMart, you will see tons of products that have UL labels - most of them are fake!I reported one power strip/surge supressor to UL as being an obvious fake, they didn't even respond. The most obvious part was if you plugged a US plug into the brand-new strip and turned it over, the plug FELL OUT of the socket. This kind of poor connection COULD burn your house down!YIKES!Jon

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2018, 05:24:28 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on September 05, 2018, 07:34:12 pmThe ongoing schtick is as good as some of the ones I see on R/eve. Wants to be dodgy middleman importer one thread, livid about them and wanting gov't intervention the next. Can't make a street lamp driver without adversaries attacking it with EM weapons, or a 50W driverand then wants gov't programs for multi-KW stuff. You can admire coppercones consistently insane stuff, but with a treez thread it's a Christmas gift because you never know what you're gonna get, but you have a suspicion its gonna be good.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2018, 07:30:03 pm
content: Thanks, the main power level of electric car charger purchased will be 3kW. This is because it can be connected to single phase domestic mains. Also, it gives a range of about 150 miles from an overnight charge…enough to get to work for most.So the dodgy geezers will be running the fets too hot and getting premature fails…What we could see from the government run companys is actual heat sensors on each power fet so that if the user mounts the charger in a too-hot ambient and the fets start to overheat, then it will safely switch off and flag up “overheating”.Its this kind of thing that the governemnt run companys can work on to end up with a really long lasting efficienct charger…when failed units come back, they can be assessed and the results put into future builds until the failures are weeded out.Many companies would be in the governemnt scheme, and together, they woudl end up with a great product and few failures.Indded , many failures are connectors and solder opens, bent-board-cracked-ceramics etc...so thats all good stuff to weed outI reverse engineered a 3kw charger some years ago and found the power fet isolated gate drives were not giving enough voltage to get into the lower rds(on) area…such slack and el-cheapo practices would be weeded out by the government monitored process. All individual companys who were taking part in this government initiative would have the info distributed to them so that all could benefit from each others knowledge….teamwork. All would be payed bonus’s if any member got good results, to encourage team effort...encourage helping each other along.This is nothing new..in USA, all the big semicons are known, behind the scenes, to be in bed with each other…the USA Government enforces this (albeit secretly)…because the success of all the American semicons, is crucial to the success of the American military machine.China of course is another example…the worlds biggest exporter by volume….and a truly amazing rate of advancement in technology in a short time….all Chinese co’s are owned by the Chinese Government…and with a network of UK middle men that they have cultivated in UK for example, they have pretty much dismantled loads of the UK electronics industry..nobody can say for sure thats what they meant to do..but thats what happened.....amazing operators.We would also like to see heatsinks in failed units going back into new units, rather than sent for melting down...lots of stuff like this.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2018, 07:41:19 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 04, 2018, 08:19:08 pmIf you read his previous posts it is obvious he is looking for government/political protection for his company because he works in highly competitive market places that end up having retarded margins or he is trying to break into certain market places populated by whale companies as a small fish company. If you can't use massive discounts due to insane volume to compete then you either need to either use shady engineering or business practices. The parts/solutions he asks for do not exist (i.e. handling his needs with existing device classes) so he is looking for some other method with which to operate a business.Eliminating a free market and being first does the trick but unfortunately this results in command economies... So the business functions by robbing the tax payers. On the positive maybe his attitude is Machiavellian rather then completely sociopathic so he will make a high quality product that makes sense once he accumulates the necessary resources for cost reduction by scale.The ethical way (i.e. not penalizing the freaking tax payer) of achieving this goal would be to develop a product that will work in the correct scale and look for trustworthy investors/venture capitalists, rather then eliminating competition with gestapo tactics. In short there is an idiot some where in his company and they are extremely pigheaded. The engineering specifications he gets with relation to BOM are completelyinsane. I am surprised they even try to develop that shit. How does that garbage even get authorized to go into the engineering department for development? The person authorizing the research is incompetent, the clear answer is that the market place is too difficult to enter at the current time with current resources. It is a gangsterish directive, with the hope that the engineers can hustle together some kind of solution in the face of extreme odds. Usually BOM reduction is started AFTER a reasonably easy to develop prototype is made that can at least make some money, to see if you can make more money.. as a side benefit.I think there is paranoia in his sales department and company vision because they have been in competition with other little fish for so long, that they forgot you can actually get bigger WITHOUT selling anything if you have a GOOD PLAN that CONVINCES PEOPLE TO INVEST. Like people getting out of prison don't realize there is a economy that works well without stabbings and cigarette cartons. It seems they feel that they have to prove current production is highly profitable, rather then to admit that the market changed and they need additional resources to continue to prosper. Its basically a refusal of acceptance by MANAGEMENT.Remember the episode of the Simpsons where marge advises a fellow inmate that his art work will look better if he does not use the stabbing motion with the paint brush?I have a feeling that if they manage to produce a product that can satisfy company objectives at this point with the current company directives that lead to the development of the product it will literally be a smelly abomination... or some truly epic engineering (which is generally unlikely for any product). The cost related requirements are some Apollo 13 shit.And the problem with a command economy is that it basically has a shitty transient response that ends up wasting a ton of cash, people high up don't have a good feel of what is going on and they can't respond quickly enough to market fluctuations. I would regard communism as 'dampened to shit all', it probobly won't ever reach the set point, let alone respond to changes.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2018, 08:23:21 pm
content: Quote from: treez on September 06, 2018, 07:30:03 pmWhere did you get the ridiculous idea that "govt run companies" are capable of doing anything competently or efficiently?

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 06, 2018, 08:37:48 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 06, 2018, 08:23:21 pmHaving worked in the public and private sector, trust me when I say that they they're in competition as to who can do the worst job. Worst might be measured slightly different in different aspects of the implementation, but they both suck equally.As for the OP's comment, I see no problem with properly inspected items being sold by the private sector. The problem lies in that it's pretty easy to get things into the country without approval, and there's little recourse when you're buying it directly from an offshore source.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2018, 08:58:12 pm
content: Quote from: boffin on September 06, 2018, 08:37:48 pmprivate companies run out of money and disappear, govt run companies have an infinite supply of tax money

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2018, 09:03:41 pm
content: Quote from: treez on September 06, 2018, 07:30:03 pmWhy use a FET here? Relays work just fine (and seem to be the more common solution in EVSEs that I’ve opened). The EVSE just serves to advertise max current and supply unregulated current to the car’s charger. It’s the car’s charger (built into the car) that’s responsible for honoring the current limit, not the EVSE’s responsibility to enforce it.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 01:42:21 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on September 06, 2018, 09:03:41 pmThe charger is built into the car. All the outlet needs to do is provide 120/240V, and tell the car (via a -12v square wave) how much current it's allowed to pull. Any additional circuitry is all protection. If you want to see how a car EVSE works, I suggest you have a look at the open EVSE project.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 01:44:54 am
content: Quote from: boffin on September 07, 2018, 01:42:21 amYes, I’m well aware.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 02:41:43 am
content: Quote from: treez on September 04, 2018, 07:41:52 pmNo, I don't agree.If the Government (taking the UK as an example), did the Electric Car Chargers, they would (perhaps) ...Need a valid ID card to activateNot be ready until 2030++But their software would not be ready until 2040, and still only partly workThey would spy on usAs promised, they would be "Free", but would need a £1,000/Month LicenceThey wouldn't be manufactured in the UK, despite promises that they would beThey would be 100% compatible, to a socket type which would never come into existenceThey would stop working after Brexit, because of some slip-up, somewhereThe "overnight" charge, would end up needing 2 weeks to complete

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 03:12:11 am
content: MK14 understands Government.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 12:34:45 pm
content: Quote from: Gregg on September 05, 2018, 04:44:04 pmFor much of the 20th Century, it was, & an avalanche of technological developments occurred.Many large technology companies relied upon Government orders to keep their doors open.QuotePoliticians and non-technical public servants wouldn't be designing stuff.I have worked in Australian Govt & Private Sector organisations, & there was not a sniff of corruption among the people I worked with.The EEs & other technical staff were just as proficient & diligent in the three large organisations I worked at, although the CEO of one of the Private Sector ones did take off to Majorca with a lot of financial questions unanswered.The one with the most problem with " self importance" was a quite small company I worked at after the others.At that one, no ideas were any good unless they came from the official "chain of command", in completecontrast to all my earlier Employers in the Technical area.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 03:44:39 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 07, 2018, 02:29:20 pmThe State owned Electricity supplier in Western Australia has lower prices than the "Privatised" (ex State) Suppliers in the other States.Govt run industries in vital areas like communications & utilities ran efficiently for many years in Australia, until, in an orgy of "Ideological Purity", most of them were sold of to the Private Sector, who continue to suck away at the public teat, whilst supplying an inferior grade of service.If the Private Sector ones were cheap, that would be one thing, but they aren't.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 04:15:44 pm
content: Indeed, gov't sponsored or operated research has driven the last almost-century of technological development. Silicon Valley, as such, wouldn't exist without military and intelligence projects.The challenge is to select research that's speculative enough that it probably won't have immediate ROI, but is nonetheless likely to succeed on its stated goals. The lack of ROI means your average corporation won't undertake it; and a large one would be able to, but would have too much policy and office politics to facilitate research. The cost of research is then spread over the taxpayers, and the benefits turn up later as companies are able to turn that research into greater productivity, more advanced technology and cheaper products (heh, well, hopefully; the semiconductor industry is perhaps too good of an example of this, and I'm sure there are many examples that aren't as beneficial to all people..).For a more direct example, consider "green energy" projects, and the grants, subsidies and such that are related to them. Some pay off, some don't. Wind and solar (Solyndra and such notwithstanding!) have proven economical in suitable regions; US biofuels not so much (E85 consumes a food staple, and doesn't break even with unleaded at current prices).Tim

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 07:44:54 am
content: Governments, cities, and municipalities should stick to providing the necessities -- which today includes internet connectivity, IMO -- that are natural monopolies, and leave the rest to competition.The rules for competition should be transparent and require quality checks, though. There are lots of people who are willing to e.g. mix melamine to milk just to get a little bit more profit, or use a bit cheaper but fundamentally unsuitable concrete mix, to ensure they won't overrun the budget, even when building something as structurally critical as a nuclear reactor. (After all, everyone assumes they can use all of the safety margin themselves, or otherwise they'll be long gone before the problem is noticed, and is therefore Somebody Else's Problem.)I think the ancient Romans got it right: when they commissioned a bridge, I believe they paid 50% when the bridge was erected, and the other 50% fifty years later, if the bridge was still standing. Obviously, we cannot do the same today, partially because of inflation, but mostly because everyone wants their profits now and not later. Interestingly, many western societies seem quite keen to otherwise reproduce the situation of the fall of the Western Roman Empire.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 02:41:21 pm
content: Thanks, Anyway I depict the participant companies will share “secrets” on longevity and value of design for this 3kw EV charger application…….for example there will be no skimping on transient protection…and units that have merely blown a fuse because the mov was old and battered will be brought back into production and not scrapped….or rather, bits of them will be…eg the mains filter, or the heatsinks, etc etc.Recently, the UK government invested huge amounts of money into producing smart meters for domestic and industrial energy useage in UK (charging for electricity)……the contracts to build the small offline power supplies for the smart meters were spread around about five companies based in UK…none of these companies were actually British owned. These 5 companies worked totally in isolation from each other, and did not share secrets on their work with each other…neither did they check each others work…as a result, there were many incidences of huge amounts of products having to be recalled because either they were electrically unsafe, or the transient protection had a problem, and resulted in premature failure of the PSU’s. This is one of the reasons why a proper Governement backed teamwork operation must happen for 3kw electric car chargers.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 04:38:02 pm
content: QuoteAgain, what makes you think the govt would do it any better than experienced commercial companies?And don't you think they have more important things to be doing?

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 06:23:31 pm
content: QuoteThanks, yes, but thats just a small charger for those hopefully few occasions when the driver forgets and gets caught out, and needs 10 miles or so of charge to get to the nearesst garage etc...the 3kw chargers will be oftheshelf items boutght additionally for the elctric car

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 06:40:27 pm
content: Why would the internal charger not be capable of 3kw?That's a pretty low charge rate, anything less would be pretty useless.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 07:27:32 pm
content: Quote from: treez on September 08, 2018, 06:23:31 pmIn EV terminology, the charger is built into the car (it's literally part of the car and the owner of the car is never intended to see/touch it).The thing that everyone calls a "charger" is properly called an EVSE ("electric vehicle supply equipment") and is responsible for getting power from the source (typically the utility) into the car such that the car's charger can charge the battery. It's the thing that you plug in to charge your car, yet it's not a charger in engineering speak.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 09:35:30 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on September 08, 2018, 07:27:32 pmConsumer products that have the charging socket connected directly to the battery are quite uncommon - the most common are power tools and R/C toys. Pretty much every modern smartphone, tablet, and laptop has the charger built in yet the power supply used to charge those is pretty much always called a "charger".

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 10:29:28 pm
content: QuoteThanks, but sorry, an onboard charger would have to be capable of 50kW fast charge otherwise it would get in the way....and there's no way you'd put a 50kw charger onboard a car...so it has to be customer discretion...and the customer can choose whether to buy a home charger capable of 50kw, or just 3kw.But every electric car must be capable of being connected to a 50kw charger, or a 3kw charger, or anything inbetween.I am pretty sure that the most efficienct charge is gotten from c/10 chargers.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 11:11:53 pm
content: Quote from: treez on September 08, 2018, 10:29:28 pmThe Tesla has a build in charger that will do 11kW from a 16A 3phase outlet which is pretty standard around here, afaiu you can get asecond charger a mounted to do 22kW if you have a 32A outlet

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 11:56:52 am
content: Thanks thats interesting, i think in most of the EU, and USA, and Aus/NZ, plus most others, the domestic supply is single phase, and they are 16A plugs, and really 3kw is the maximum you can have.I appreciate some cars have built in 11kw chargers, but really, i think the chargers in most cars will be external to the car, or otherwise the onbaord charger would have to be capable of too many different things....from 50kw, with three phase connection, to 3kw, with single phase connection.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 12:05:40 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 08, 2018, 09:35:30 pmI agree with your argument as logical, but that's not consistent with the terminology the EV industry engineering seems to have settled on.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 12:34:57 pm
content: Quote from: treez on September 09, 2018, 11:56:52 am3phase vs. 1phase is just 2 more diodes and higher voltage tolerance, so not a big deal.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 01:42:31 pm
content: Tesla uses 3 identical inverters for 3 phase. Two of the three are used for single phase operation.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 01:48:49 pm
content: Quote from: treez on September 09, 2018, 11:56:52 am12 kW in the USA is not a problem. Ordinary domestic supply is 240 V split phase, and 50 A circuits are used for air conditioning, resistive heating and other applications including EVSE.The Tesla Model 3 has a 7.7 or 9.6 kW charger on board (depending on battery capacity), so getting close to what a common domestic supply can provide.The first generation Tesla superchargers where just a stack of the same on board charger used in the car.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 02:24:23 pm
content: Yes, thanks, Tesla put the charger in the car, because chargers and EV's etc etc arent that common at the moment, so they put it in the car to relieve the customer of the effort of having to buy a charger...but as EVs get more common, EVs will not have the charger in the car any more.Ok thanks, by the way, this thread was never meant to be political…it was always supposed to be about discussing technical ideas toward 3kw EV chargers that the government could do in a big team effort between government sponsored companies…for example…No private company would bother to do the following excellent methods…Transient protection, Mains input filter, PFC, isolation stage, current regulator stage….these should all be modular…..if one of them gets a fault….then it gets sent back to the repair centre, and the one module that has the fault is replaced…all the other modules will be re-used…..saving on scrap.Also, proper temperature sensing throughout the converter, including elec’lytic cap cases…..no private co’ would bother with this…power would be pegged back till the temp went down to good level. A private co would just shove one NTC in there and try and do it from that alone…loads of scrap would result.MOVs will be used…and if done by private sector, units which blew a fuse simply because the mov blew up will be totally scrapped…..not so with the government led thing………….MOV units will be replaced and the unit sent back out after some advisory testing.This government led project will also massively help bring on power supply engineers in the UK or whatever country.There is a massive shortage in uk...plus other countries.I appreciate that if any individual is making a ton of money through working in the private sector, then you’re not going to be interested in any government backed project, period……but just think of all the government money which gets poured into UK co’s at the moment…in terms of “development grants”…this amounts to billions of pounds of wasted money every year…wasted by private UK companies doing “waste of time” things with this taxpayers money.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 02:39:55 pm
content: Quote from: treez on September 09, 2018, 02:24:23 pmhttps://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Poe%27s%20Law

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 02:47:27 pm
content: Thanks, Anyway, lets keep it technical…..the initial units would not be potted, because potting is what private co’s do to stop rivals from robbing their ideas….potting can cause problems with potting compound (especially in the prescence of vibration) ripping components off the board or stressing them mechanically……also, potting compound stops the government sponsored repair centre engineers from easily finding out which part of a circuit went wrong……and we need to know which part of the circuit went wrong…because then we can tweak it better…so the chargers get better and better……then all participant government sponsored companies can be fed the info…….private co’s would just pot the electronics in a (too small) metal case and when the unit fails…tough it goes for scrap.The government sponsored units would use fans and heatsinks for cooling….but venting (and vent filters) would be special so that moisture and dust did not get in too much.The correct fans will be used…for long life……….not the fans that use cheap grease which wears out quickly and renders the fan inoperable (the private sector would use these though) ….and when the fan eventually dies……..this will be sensed, and the unit returned to the government repair centre, and the fans replaced, and the unit sent back out…..not scrapping the entire unit because the fan had failed.Hall sensors will be used to detect fan speed is correct…no private company would bother investing in this…but because multiple government sponsored companies would be all using the same fan speed sensor, they would buy in bulk together and thus get them cheap…..small private companies acting alone will simply not be able to get such volume price reductions….so the small private companies will give up and just end up importing vast amounts of middle-manned units in from overseas…and loads of scrap electronics will result…but the middle-men will be millionaires overnight.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 02:55:30 pm
content: Quote from: treez on September 09, 2018, 02:24:23 pmAs technology advances the power density of inverters will increase and cost per watt will decline. This will lead to EVs having increasingly higher capacity on board chargers and may ultimately bring to an end the need for proprietary external DC fast chargers.QuoteNumerous companies throughout the world that have decades of inverter design experience. There is no need for government intervention here.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 03:00:37 pm
content: Quote from: treez on September 09, 2018, 02:24:23 pmIn general, putting lots of connectors, all over the place. Usually significantly reduces the reliability and lifetime. Yet increases the cost and complexity and can cause major headaches as regards EMC, safety, efficiency etc.I.e. Which is better. A single, high quality PCB, with everything on it ?Or alternatively, 5 .. 25 small, separate PCBs, with a huge number of (reasonably priced but not brilliant quality) connectors, wires, wiring-harnesses, mechanical bits and pieces (such as fasteners etc), to make it all work ?tl;drGoing modular, could very dramatically, double or even triple the cost, while considerably reducing the reliability, durability and other bad things, at the same time.These days, the trend seems to be, for things to be one big giant assembly or device. Which is NOT repaired, but only replaced.Also having these 5 .. 25 sub-assemblies, which might then go to several versions, leading to logistical problems, with all the hundreds of different PCB modules needed for all the different versions.These items would need to be manufactured in very small quantities (as spares, which is very expensive), stocked somewhere (which is also expensive), and expensive technicians would have to diagnose what the problem is and replace the parts, which can cost a lot of money.It can be done that way, but high quality, properly designed connectors, could cost a small fortune and need/use rare materials, such as gold. Which are best saved for more important uses..

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 10:01:16 pm
content: QuoteThis just gets crazier and crazier. Either Treez is deliberately trolling, or delusional and needs help.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 10:36:37 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on September 04, 2018, 08:09:11 pmThe more standards and regulations exist and are enforced, the more the market is slanted towards big players. This is something that needs to be addressed for a proper free market. Abolishing all standards is a terrible idea, but the price of entry should be kept reasonable.Let's not even get started on patents and how they tend to favour a few massive players.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 07:48:45 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 09, 2018, 10:01:16 pmYes, it feels uncomfortable. But maybe it is simply a matter of his company not being able to compete in a cost-sensitive market, or his boss not accepting expensively engineered solutions, and treez looking for "government help"?@treez -- we had "government sponsored" telephone makers in my country until 1980 or so. I believe the situation was similar in the UK and many other countries? Yes, the phones were pretty reliable. But there also was hardly any technical progress over five decades or so, ever since self-dialing had become the norm. And those phones were expensive! (If you could buy them at all and were not forced to pay a monthly leasing fee.) Can't say I miss those days.

author: CCitizenTO
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2018, 09:40:00 pm
content: You already got the government involved enough in the design.They specify the mains voltage (120VAC/220VAC depending on jurisdiction).They have building codes which require inspection of devices directly connected to the mains power (IE. Running a new 220VAC line to your garage probably requires an electrician).They have rules and regulations on what devices may be sold in the country and likely require things like UL certification for anything that handles that much power.Lastly they handle all the regulation and licensing of motor vehicles which means charging specification and battery capacities are likely handled in design and testing phase when they offer it to transportation authorities for testing and approval purposes. This is why self-driving cars weren't just allowed to be thrown into traffic without testing and the like.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 12:22:08 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on September 10, 2018, 07:48:45 pmIf it was like Australia, not only did the Telecommunications body own the phones, they also had responsibility for all the connections up to & including the phone.If you had a faulty phone, they fixed it ----full stop.With privatised suppliers, you have to pay someone else to fix your internal wiring--- the phone company just delights in " duck shoving " the problem to someone else.Technical progress?When I was in Wyndham in tropical North Western Australia in 1967, the communications were magneto phones via a two wire pole route, all the way to Geraldton where it picked up the Coax system to Perth.Funnily enough, Kununurra, 70km air distance ( a lot further by road) away, had an automatic exchange, so around the town were dial up, but if you wanted to call outside, you had to go through Wyndham manual exchange.The pole route landline had a 12 channel voice system on it, plus a 24 channel VFT ( telegraph) system.In the "Wet" season, the poles would often get washed away, losing everything.The backup was two Independent Sideband HF Transmitters to Derby, a bit further down the coast, (516 km air distance ),where hopefully they would connect to a still intact landline, otherwise it was another HF Radio link to Perth.The problem was, the "Wet" wasn't a good season for HF Radio either!By the way, the nearest AM Broadcast Station was in Darwin 446 km away in the Northern Territory.By the mid 1980s, Wyndham had a Broadband UHF spur of the microwave system into Kununurra, Remote Area TV, AM & FM radio stations & an automatic exchange you could make STD & ISD calls through.So, in a bit under 20 years, it had gone from a "frontier" standard of communications to a similar level to that of the major cities.Of course, the big cities had dial phones for decades before that, but building auto exchanges in cities & using cable already in the ground is a lot easier & far less costly, than installing long haul comms.So much of massive infrastructure & technology improvements over the years were "behind the scenes", & not apparent to the casual user.A phone looked like a phone!

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 12:42:53 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 13, 2018, 12:22:08 pmCould everyone here who needed the phone company to come into their house to fix wiring in the last two decades please raise their hand? We're taking a survey. Keep 'em up high; I need to count them. Well, shoot, first it seems like I need to find them first... Anyone?Around here, there's a clear phone network demark point. You can literally unplug the house and plug in a test phone. If that works, the phone company is off the hook (pun intended) for the outside wiring. If it doesn't, they are. Further, most of them offer a "more than $1, often more than $2/month" service where they will come in and fix internal wiring as well. I wouldn't be surprised if there was more labor involved in counting and accounting for that money than in doing repairs.My electric company isn't responsible for the mains wiring inside my house.My water company isn't responsible for the pipes inside.My gas company isn't responsible for the gas lines inside.Why should the phone company be (or more precisely, why should consumers have to support such a system if they don't want it)?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 01:41:59 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 13, 2018, 12:22:08 pmSame here. But it also meant that you were notallowedto touch the in-house wiring yourself! Phones were sealed, and when the federal post office technician showed up, you better had those seals intact...And if you wanted your phone connected on the other side of the room instead, it sure wasn't you who would install that extra length of wire along the wall. (Cordless phone? What's that?!)And those "optional upgrades" were not free at all.QuoteHaving the state in charge of the central backbones (be it phone, power, gas, water, ...) is a different matter. I am in favor of that. But the consumer devices connected to those various utilities? Only if it affects safety, or reliability of the overall network.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 07:54:42 pm
content: In the US it was effectively a government sanctioned monopoly by AT&T that controlled he phones. Couldn't connect other devices, couldn't do your own wiring. All service provided by them.And they often justified it on the grounds of it affecting the reliability of the network. They provided your local service, AND the long distance service. No options. Had this persisted into the PC and dialup modem era, I think we'd all still be using 2400 baud modems max. Luckily for us, the winds of change forced a breakup of AT&T and allowed consumers to purchase their own phones, anwering machines, and modems from anyone. Technically required to be certified by the FCC, but no longer restricted to just equipment supplied by AT&T.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 04:47:32 pm
content: I certainly think that EV owners should pay road tax / VED to cover the cost of charger installations. Why should the EV owners get to use the roads for free AND get us to pay for their charging points?There's way too much of this, "I'm green so I should get everything for free" syndrome.

author: ANTALIFE
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2018, 01:16:33 am
content: treez