New bench DMM or older one - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 08:23:43 pm
content: I've got a small selection of hand held DMMs but always wanted a bench one. I've now decided to go for it and having looked at the excellent spreadsheet on here I did some research on the internet, ebay etc and there are a few possibles. New I was looking at possibly the Rigol DM3058E but then I looked at some older ones and spotted the Philips PM2525....My question is, the Philips is £210 whilst the Rigol is £435. I can build an interface for IEEE-488 to USB for a few pounds and the 2525 includes the IEEE-488 interface so effectively the 2525 is half the price so what advantage is there in getting a new one? Warranty is 6 months for the 2nd hand one so that's not as good and the calibration is not guaranteed.Is there another DMM I should look at? My budget is around £500 but I could wait another month or so if there was a brilliant one at around £600EDIT: Oh I should add what I'm doing with it! Well digital circuit design, microprocessors, power supplies, vintage computers (inc modding), repairs to older and some new stuff.....

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 08:50:19 pm
content: 210£ for a Philips PM2525 seems very high, I would expect these to go for below 100£.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 08:58:51 pm
content: Welcome to the forum.A couple from the SDM3000 range of Siglent bench meters fall into your budget.https://www.siglentamerica.com/digital-multimeters/http://siglenteu.com/pd.aspx?tid=37&T=1They're 3 year warranted and come with Cal certs.There's more about them here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-new-bench-dmm-sdm3055/The 5 1/2 digit model was the first released and they had some problems but all the new ones with later firmware work good.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 09:21:27 pm
content: Quote from: _Wim_ on January 12, 2018, 08:50:19 pmI agree with this. IIRC some folks reported the Philips/Fluke was not as robust as other brands of their time, but I have never had one. Just FYI, some users reportedimportant things to look for on a used PM2525.As tautech mentioned, Siglent also has some interesting models if you are looking for something brand new. Also, a resident expert here (nctnico) swears by thelow cost VC8145 meter.Your usage looks quite similar to mine. I have some older bench meters (Keithley 191, Racal Dana 5001, HP 3478A) that I bought used but very cheaply. I don't necessarily need the full 5-1/2 digit precision, but I like the fact they can be left on all day long without problems with batteries or auto-off. I also love the 4-wire measurements.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 09:51:05 pm
content: I generally prefer older bench DMMs, some of them are quite good, even ancient instruments that were very expensive originally. My oldest is a Keithly nixie display DMM, it's only 3.5 digits but it has some very low ranges for measuring tiny currents and voltages. Checked against a calibrator it was dead on despite the last calibration being something like 30 years ago.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 10:03:32 pm
content: Thanks for adding your expected usageThe answer to your question depends on either what is inadequate about your existing meters, and/or what you hope to gain with new meters.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 10:53:43 pm
content: I’ve just looked around in my lab and counted a total of 16 bench multimeters – and there are some more in the cabinet. This is a collection that has built up over time, as bothering with handhelds in a lab has never been a tempting idea for me (of course I do have a couple of handhelds for field use though).Regarding my bench DMM collection, none of these instruments is a Philips. I remember that for some reason they have never appeared that attractive and competitive – at least not for my requirements.That said, you have clearly stated your requirements and having had a look at the datasheet, I cannot see a reason why a Philips 2525 would not be for you. Its accuracy seems rather low for 5.5 digits, but then again, high accuracy isn’t important for your applications anyway. On the other hand it has some great features like the 1µA and 10µA current ranges and the low burden voltage in general. But as stated before, I have absolutely no experience with Philips DMMs, and given the age of these instruments, they might be unreliable and in need of repair (with some obsolete and hard to source parts) by now.For your requirements, a 4.5 digit meter would be all you need. 20000 counts has been the standard for lab meters (without special requirements) for many decades. In my collection, there are the Fluke 45, HP3466A and Tektronix DM2510 that belong in this category. All these are very nice meters, but…The Fluke 45 is fairly modern and reliable, but a bit expensive on the used market for what it is, at least in Europe.The HP3466A is much cheaper, but it’s rather old and most of them got unreliable by now (mainly because of the mechanical switches), so I cannot recommend it anymore.The Tektronix DM2510 is fairly modern and reliable just like the Fluke 45, but it is very hard to find and because of this, prices are sometimes a little on the high side.So even though all three meters would fit your budget, they are either hard to find (at least at a reasonable price) or unreliable, so I would not recommend them unless you can actually find a great deal on either the Fluke or the Tektronix.As I said before, the Philips looks nice if the price is right, but I cannot comment on the reliability.The problem with older 5.5 or even 6.5 digit DMMs is that they usually lack decent current ranges – and this would be something really useful (if not even essential) for your tasks. If it weren’t for that, and your requirements would be very different and just call for exceptional accuracy and stability, then I might have recommended a Fluke 8840A or even a Keithley 2000 or 2015 THD. But all these meters won’t fit the bill when it comes to current ranges. One has to be particularly cautious when purchasing a used Fluke 8840A, because True RMS AC measurements are an option and advertisements for used instruments often don’t clearly state which options are fitted. IEEE488 is also an option by the way.I don’t have experience with the Rigol DM3058E and from the datasheet it would fit the bill, but from the comments I’ve read here in the forum, it doesn’t appear to be that great. At one point I made my department at work purchase a couple Rigol DM3068, as I figured they would be okay for our needs – and they certainly are, but then wasn’t overly impressed when I personally evaluated them. After that, I abandoned the idea to get one of these meters for my personal lab – because my requirements are quite obviously different from yours and also from the requirements at work. But that’s only a side note, as this meter is not within your budget anyway.From the datasheet, the Siglent SDM3045X looks like a good fit for your needs and is very similar to the Rigol DM3058 - except for the resolution, which is 60000 Siglent vs. 200000 Rigol). In any case it’s a bit cheaper and has the fancier display for sure. But then again, I have no personal experience with Siglent DMMs either.

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 07:06:45 am
content: Quote from: Performa01 on January 12, 2018, 10:53:43 pmThe Philips ones were also sold by fluke (fluke pm2525), so I think they are quite ok (but for sure not worth 210£) I have 2 of these, but I almost never use them. In contrast with what was reported here, I prefer to use handhelds (BM869s) instead of bench multimeters, because I can place them in the "line of sight" when I am probing.The only use for a bench multimeter for me would be high accuracy, but then we are not talking about a 5 1/2 digits one off course.I would gladly trade my 2 PM2525s for 1 additional BM869s, this is in my opinion a much more useful tool on the bench!

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 03:52:54 pm
content: The Rigol has trend graphs and histograms, features that I think are missing from the Phillips. I use the trend and histogram features of my Keysight 34465a far more often than I need the full accuracy.

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 09:12:18 pm
content: Quote from: Tom45 on January 13, 2018, 03:52:54 pmYes, I can imagine that indeed a useful feature. When I would buy a bench meter, I would for sure go for a recent one, and the rigol or siglent look like nice units. Off course if the budget stretches until a 34465a, I would not say no also...

author: KrudyZ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 09:35:22 pm
content: Quote from: cowasaki on January 12, 2018, 08:23:43 pmConsidering your use case, I see no good reason to get a bench meter. I would spend my money on time domain instruments instead, i.e. a scope, logic analyzer, protocol analyzer or an MSO with all of that in one instrument.If you really want a bench DMM, you could easily get a used 34401A within your budget and it would hold its (remaining) value for a lot longer than any of the lower resolution meters.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 10:09:07 pm
content: Quote from: _Wim_ on January 13, 2018, 09:12:18 pmRigol DM3068 has trend graph and histograms (that update in real time).The DM3058/E only has histogram, and it does not update on it's tiny LCD screen without user intervention to keep mashing the buttons. Utterly pathetic. Cheaper Siglent models appear much better than this >10 year old dinosaur that has NO SUPPORT WHATSOEVER from RIGOL.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 10:19:34 pm
content: Tautech made a comment on the HP 3466 and switch unreliability. I have 2 of them bought for about $100 USD total. The LED indicators didn't match up to the switches. Some switch cleaner and much vigorous button pushing cleaned everything up and the indicators match the selection switch. They both are right there with my GW Instek GDM 8251A 5.5 digit meter. I really like the red LED display, just wish the meters used shrouded banana jacks but that's not a mod I feel like doing. Consider it as it would leave you money for more test equipment. One can never have enough, right?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 10:36:22 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on January 13, 2018, 10:19:34 pmI couldn't find it with a search but it would likely have been a generic comment based on the reliability of mechanical switches in older test equipment. Meters, scopes etc all suffer from switch degradation and cleaning and exercise is another maintenance task needed for older equipment.For the hobbyist that'sawareof this, it's not so big deal.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 11:41:36 pm
content: Yes, my Keithley 191 had this issue as well. After some continuous repetition pressing all keys and they are like new again. In my case I suspect it was a meter that stayed on the same scale for most of its previous life.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 01:54:30 am
content: Quote from: tautech on January 13, 2018, 10:36:22 pmMy bad, it was Performa01 not you. Sorry, Sir. My train of thought obviously derailed.

author: Jester
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 03:32:15 am
content: Re PM2525.....I eventually sold every LCD based, bench DMM meter that I had acquired over the years, simply because in comparison to VFD or even LED they are just not pleasant to look at.What about a Instek GDM-8251A, these are selling for about $100-200 on ebay. Large bright dual display and 10A range. It's the least accurate of all the bench DMM's I have, however it was really inexpensive and basically works fine for basic measurements. IMO, great value for the price.

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 07:55:35 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on January 13, 2018, 10:09:07 pmStating it like this, I would indeed also go for the Siglent then...Have not used the Siglent or the Rigol multimeter in the past, but have used product from both vendors, and liked them. They sometimes have some quirks, but price/performance is excellent, even when compared to older A-brand EBay gear.For me personally, I purchase based on the following guideline:- When the equipment is cheap/affordable to buy new from a good supplier, I buy new.- When the type of equipment that has benefit a lot from the digital revolution (much more functions, big screen, smaller footprint, remote connectivity…), but it is too expensive to buy from an A-brand supplier, a still try to buy new, but also consider B and C brand suppliers- For all other gear, I go the Ebay route. Sometimes I risk to buy broken, sometimes I buy working. Typically I do not buy HPAK gear, because they go for way too high on Ebay. Advantest, R&S, Yokogawa, EG&G, SRS… can be had for much better prices. For a repair project, HPAC is recommended because of excellent documentation and info on the net.

author: HalFET
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 03:22:19 pm
content: Quote from: _Wim_ on January 13, 2018, 07:06:45 amThe Philips PM25x5 meters weren't that great, you can pretty much knock one off the digit rating. The PM2535 claims to be 6.5, but it's really only 5.5. That being said, these things do seem to keep their cal pretty well, mine is still nearly spot on even though it's last cal was in the early 90s. The 2525 is definitely not worth 210 GBP, but it's not that bad of a meter either for all its flaws. (See C. Arnoux for really atrocious quality from the same era.) The build quality on them seems pretty good, just be sure to read the manual before you ever turn one on.And if anyone is interested, I am planning to dispose of that PM2535 in my stash rather soon.

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 09:57:38 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 12, 2018, 10:03:32 pmAbsolutely nothing is inadequate about my main meter which is a UNI-T 60E. I am hoping to move away from micro controllers and start experimenting with other things. I have a UNI-T UTD4202C scope and liked that so I just bought the UNI-T 60E when my current DMM broke. I've always wanted a bench DMM so I can stick it on the shelf with the scope etc and make use of it there rather than having the hand held one getting in the way. It also means I can have it back lit with no battery issues. I have a larger budget but there are other things I would like to buy. I quite liked the Philips/fluke stuff having used it in my first proper job around 1991 when I spent quite a lot of work's money on a 100MHz storage scope.If I can find a PM2525 for under £100 I would buy it even if I got another DMM later. I know that the PM2525 will be better than my hand held device!

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 10:03:58 pm
content: Quote from: _Wim_ on January 13, 2018, 07:06:45 amI've just looked at your recommendation of a BM869s which really does look like a decent DMM. I do have a DMM which does what I need at the moment but obviously you can't have too many.On another note if you feel like selling a PM2525 let me know, especially if it has an IEEE833 interface like the one I've seen. I actually thought the PM2525 I saw was a bit expensive.

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 10:13:33 pm
content: Quote from: KrudyZ on January 13, 2018, 09:35:22 pmThanks, I have a UNI-T UTD4202C 200MHz digital storage scope with logic analyser now and to be honest I don't NEED a bench DMM it's rather that I WANT oneI've found a 34401A in Israel for nearly £300 inc postage but it's a bit scabby....... The better condition ones seem to be from the US at maybe £420 BUT if customs stop it I'm looking at another £84 VAT and £25 handling charge so £529

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 10:17:52 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on January 13, 2018, 10:19:34 pmUsed equipment is massively cheaper in the USA than it is in Europe/UK. I would like more stuff so buying a cheaper bench DMM that still does everything would be better. It's brilliant to get a new box with a new machine in it and a decent warranty but the extra cost....... (especially with 20% VAT)

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 10:23:49 pm
content: Quote from: HalFET on January 14, 2018, 03:22:19 pm

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 10:50:20 pm
content: @cowaski well in some case as you said ... generally used equipment is cheaper in usa, but buying 2 gossen 28s meters months ago, and their usb-rs232 interfaces has costed me a lot, (mostly the shipping fees), a german EEVblog friend helped me to get them from germany.You have to be sure of what you need. I needed them period lollHad an mastech 22000 count meter and a brymen 859s but needed more resolution, i dont care about the speed, as i posted on other threads, i hate the mv settings, i only need 1 range of ac or dc measurements. Totally love the auto select input, ac dc or ohms detection ...Luckily in the lasts months, i was able to score an Gossen 29s on ebay Usaand an old 50k count B&K Precision 5490 bench meter, i was very lucky to obtain the calibration software from Chauvin Arnoux, since it is a clone of mx554 - 556 models.But the first thing i've checked is for the nearest calibration facility in my country, if there is one ... before i've bouht the Gossen's, since they use specialized software for them.In Canada you have Transcat who do ton's of brand - models, in usa i think there is an Dranetz facility ...

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 01:37:26 am
content: Depends on what you need to it for. Horses for courses.

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 10:40:15 am
content: Quote from: bson on January 15, 2018, 01:37:26 amAbsolutely. I did say in the post but to be honest I am teaching myself about other areas as well so something capable of lots of different things is best. I think I have a plan though.....

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 10:45:50 am
content: OK. Thanks for everyone's ideas and suggestions. I think having read them all that what I really want is probably a little bit out of my price range for now but it's always handy to have more than one DMM so my plan is......I'm going to look for a PM2525 or similar at around £100 hopefully with a IEEE488 as I quite fancy designing a IEEE488 to USB interface including an LCD/LED display, and other functionality. Once I've done that I will save up a little more and it then opens up a few more possibilities which are just outside my current price range. Hopefully I can get something decent around April.So now to hunt out something like the PM2525s I've seen at a more realistic price.

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 10:20:06 pm
content: Quote from: cowasaki on January 14, 2018, 10:03:58 pmThey can both go for me, as I do not use them. I have to check for the IEEE33 interface, I do not remerber...

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2018, 12:52:06 am
content: Thanks. A product I manufactured has a case and layout ideal for a smart IEEE488 interface so I might well design it and just completely replace the board changing the device's entire reason for existence. I quite fancy that hence the need for the interface if at all possible. If it has one how much are you thinking about?

author: CustomEngineerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2018, 02:50:33 am
content: It sounds like you have your mind made up that you for sure want a bench DMM, so this is probably a useless comment, but wanted to share anyways. I have no real need for a bench meter (hobby/personal learning), and have multiple handhelds that cover everything I need to do. For years I avoided even looking at bench meters because of lack of need, but when the ITT used GDM-8251As got down to $100 last year I made an impulse buy on one. I didn't need its extra resolution or additional features, but am really happy I did. It is an absolute joy to use. I pretty much turn it on (and leave it on) anytime I'm at the bench. Other than being able to leave it on for hours at a time and not having to worry about draining the batteries, I'm not sure why I prefer using it over the handhelds, there's just something about it. Recently I've even been looking at other bench meters.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2018, 03:05:12 am
content: Ease of reading the VFD over an LCD perhaps?Generally speaking I do prefer handhelds (placement on the bench), but I do prefer the speed and ease I can obtain data from a VFD.BTW, I also picked up one of the GW Instek 8251A's from the ITT liquidation.

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2018, 08:43:07 am
content: Quote from: CustomEngineerer on January 16, 2018, 02:50:33 amThats pretty much my position

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 16, 2018, 01:01:58 pm
content: Quote from: CustomEngineerer on January 16, 2018, 02:50:33 amI got mine for about $90 shipped. I should have bought a second one for that price.

author: markce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2018, 10:55:57 pm
content: I've choosen an extreme option to your initial question. I am using an old one (actually 2), as bench DMM, a Philips PM2528 with GPIB.It was cheap (around Eur 100) and fits my needs:- 4/1/2 digits- 4-wire measurements- auto range- accurate AC measurements- easy readable: large LED display- reliable- easy serviceable (no special parts)- DIY calibrationAfter 9 years, still happy with it. I use it as my main bench DMM, with a Fluke 175 for less critical everyday work.

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2018, 12:10:27 am
content: I suppose I'm just going to have to wait until someone offers me a PM2525 at the right price

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2018, 01:16:53 am
content: I mostly use handhelds but I do have one bench meter that is set up on my bench all the time. It's convenient to have, it's always right there, I can turn it on and leave it on for hours without it shutting off, and I like the nice big VFD and PC interface. If I could only have one meter it would be a handheld but a bench meter is certainly convenient.

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2018, 08:19:59 pm
content: Quote from: cowasaki on January 17, 2018, 12:10:27 amOk, just did a quick check. Both do not have GPIB port, the white one definately is out of call and consider this a repair project, the brown one is much closer to my Brymen (maybe also out of cal, I did not calculate or check). Both units were just powered on, I did not wait for warm-up or anything. There "old and dusty".Results, see pictures.If interested, the brown one can go for 80€, the white one for 40€ (excluding shipping which I expect will be around 20€). I hope this is a fair price, feel free to make a different offer also.

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2018, 08:53:53 pm
content: Quote from: _Wim_ on January 17, 2018, 08:19:59 pmThanks. That seems quite fair. What could you do both for including postage to the UK? I'll just have to find a IEEE488 interface from somewhere. One other thing is, would you be happy to do this next week (24th) when I've got some money coming in. I will definitely have them but with Christmas it'll leave me a little short and I've lent out the money which I had saved to someone else who is paying me back at the end of the month too!

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2018, 08:58:56 pm
content: Both for 130€ including shipping seems ok for me. No problem to wait. I will reserve them for you, you can leave them here for another month if desired, no problem, was not planning to sell, do not need the extra space. They just did not get used any more...

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2018, 09:01:50 pm
content: Oh and if anyone has a GPIB port for a Philips PM2525 going spare.........This is my last product design. A photo trigger interface device to which you can plug a trigger module (sound, beam breaker, laser breaker, solenoid controller or lightning) I've got maybe half a dozen or more left so it would make a nice handy case for the interface. Using the same controls and display would be nice too.

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2018, 09:03:29 pm
content: Consider them both sold then. I will pay you next Wednesday and you can send them then. You can get them packed up if you like :-)