What languages should engineers learn? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 10:07:08 pm
content: I was installing LibreOffice and selecting what spell check languages I wanted and that got me thinking, what are the most useful languages for engineers to learn? So far I reckon English, Chinese and maybe German? I don't know why I see so many Germans around the forum but I know Germany is a good source of technology (and their industry is very developed overall).I am completely ignoring Japanese here because I find this country to be so culturally isolated I don't think it is an attractive place to work at and I feel their English is better than the average Chinese company's.What's your opinion?I'm also adding an interesting poll: what language do you think should be the internaitonal language? Imagine English isn't already trying to be the de-facto language.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 10:18:22 pm
content: Can't go wrong with C

author: 4to20Milliamps
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 10:19:01 pm
content: Spanglish?

author: cthree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 10:24:50 pm
content: 1. English2. C

author: mikes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 12:11:48 am
content: Klingon.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 01:04:50 am
content: English and German, if you live next to Germany.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 02:15:46 am
content: I wonder if Germany is a good place for electronics engineers.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 02:29:15 am
content: Accounting?

author: kfitch42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 02:30:26 am
content: I usually joke that I prefer domestic languages (like C and Python) to foreign ones(like English), but I guess that joke doesn't work as well on an international forum like this.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 04:43:28 am
content: Quote from: ivan747 on May 24, 2013, 10:07:08 pmNot too long ago (6-12 months), my daughter was making her second language choice for high school which she will be starting coming fall. So I spend some time thinking this over.(1) How many Fortune 100 has that as their home language? How about Fortune 1000?(2) How many scientific journals are written in that language?(3) Of all the countries speaking language X's, what are their combined combined GDP?(4) Of all the countries speaking language X's, what are their combined R&D dollars (not percentage of GDP but actual amount)?(5) Of the answers above, Is dX/dt positive? Is d2x/dt (second derivative)? Are they reaching an inflection point?Fortune 100 one years (or two years) ago had English speaker companies being #1, I forgot who is second, but if memory serves, the 2nd to 5 are: French, Japanese, German, Chinese follows. Dutch has a few. The rest are low single digit.Since German, Chinese, and Japanese are not available, she is going for French.You may argue why just look at economic numbers. Well, as the saying goes: "a man has got to eat," so is for a woman as well. Without a good mean of making a living, it doesn't matter what else knowing that language can do for you.You may want to do similar analysis again with more recent numbers. I think China will gain at the expense of everyone else. China is definitely on an up trajectory while French is on the way down. Hard to say about Germany.My choice would be Chinese, German, then Japanese. Combining current numbers and expected trajectory, Chinese is the way to go.Jim Rogers, the founder of Quantum fund, was quoted saying: "there is no better gift you can give your children but the ability to speak Mandarin." (forgot exact words, this was quoted in major magazines). He went to the extend of hiring a Chinese Nanny to ensure his kid speaks Mandarin.So, there you go.Rick

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 05:16:12 am
content: English and chineseC

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 05:22:26 am
content: English.Just make sure you have at least one Chinese guy at the office if you do any over seas purchasing or manufacturing.

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 07:53:49 am
content: I'm most likely biased but I'd say English and Chinese

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 08:05:26 am
content: Quote from: kfitch42 on May 25, 2013, 02:30:26 amEspecially since Python is Dutch.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 08:14:30 am
content: Java, because its popular and is specifically designed to have as few implementation dependencies as possible.BAHAHAI'd never genuinely suggest java.Probably chinese.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 08:30:32 am
content: Difficulty/learning time should probably also be factored into the equation - That would probably put Chinese way down the list.As reagards career prospects, programming languages and HDLs are probably more valuable skills.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 08:31:06 am
content: Besides English, the only other language I would have ever found it professionally useful to read is Chinese (and, I'm afraid, I wouldn't recognise the difference between Cantonese, Mandarin or any other languages that might also come under that umbrella).As an engineer, more often than not it's technical data sheets that give rise to a need for languages besides English. Some data sheets are only available in Chinese. German companies tend to produce data sheets which are in both German and English. Other companies tend to use English only.If you're involved with low cost, high volume (generally consumer) products, then being able to communicate with Chinese manufacturers and designers would be a major advantage. Although they generally can use English, I've found it's easy for technical information to get lost in translation. Coupled with the time difference - China is packing up to go home at the end of the day just as Europe is getting started - it can make for very slow progress if you're working with a Chinese company and have to exchange multiple emails to ensure something is well understood.

author: gocemk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 09:42:11 am
content: MATLAB, C, C++ and probably some HDL.

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 10:59:46 am
content: The drawback with being English is, if you're not particularly good at languages, it is hard to choose which other language to learn. If you're not English then English is an obvious choice as an international language. The choice for an other international language is more problematic. I grew up in Hong Kong but never learned more than a few words of Cantonese because I was surrounded by people who spoke English whether as native speakers or as people who simply wished to practice their English. I was not a natural linguist so if I could get by with English I did. Chinese (Cantonese in this case) is a difficult language to learn. My father learned it for his work but I don't think he ever felt totally fluent and he was a much better linguist than I am.I don't know if Mandarin is a good language to learn for Engineering. Clearly China is going to employ a lot of engineers in future and to speak both Mandarin and English will probably make you very employable, but there is also going to be a lot of Chinese engineers who will learn English and they will be better placed to take jobs in China.For science and engineering innovation German is a good language to learn but if you already speak English, unless you want to work in Germany, most information is available in English as well as German.If I was to produce a list with no weighting for difficulty it would be:EnglishMandarinGermanLanguages like Spanish are very widely spoken but I'm not sure how many engineering jobs there are in South America or Spain and in the US, at least at present, English (or the US variant of it) is probably sufficient.India is up and coming but again there are many languages so English is probably the one that is used for technical jobs (I'm not very up on this).

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 11:16:52 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on May 25, 2013, 08:31:06 amIn the case of reading datasheets, machine translation is usually going to be good enough to get enough understanding to figure out any details.

author: nuhamind2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 12:54:11 pm
content: I speak Javanesedaily

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 02:14:47 pm
content: Mathematics!

author: C
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 07:13:09 pm
content: good Pictures is the best first language.When it comes to what is written or spoken there are often differences.What I think of as a "TUBE" ( you know the thing that gets hot an is used in radios and amplifiers), some call a "Valve". So when someone says the "the Valve was bad", are they talking about a "TUBE" or what I think of as a "Valve" (the thing you turn on and off to control something like water). Add to this there sometimes special names are used when working in a specific area. When someone/something is Translating you have to worry if they took this in to account. And if the translator does not know the subject, you can really have a lot of poor translations.An Example:In the 80's I was at the Rome Italy airport customs counter when the local Italian guy meeting me said in English "I see you were able to bring two P-T-BOMBS !"Anyone want to guess how many Italians in security with the pistols and machine guns could translate "BOMB" from English to Italian. I did not have to wonder, as they were pointed and cocked. You think that's bad, it gets worse. What I was carrying was what some of you with guns would call shot gun cases, so step it up another notch. Then when opened, Inside each of the two cases were two pipes. One with electrical connections on one end, the other on both ends, so step it up another notch.One pipe was a $25,000, 0-20,000 psi electronic pressure gauge built by "HP" to sense the pressure at the bottom of oil/gas wells factory/calibration lab sealed with a one time use gold washer. Special tools needed to open it. The other pipe was a temperature sensor that connected to the pressure sensor. I was very very lucky, "HP" included a manual in every case and the manual had real good pictures.So where did the name "P-T-BOMB" come from? The original was a mechanical wind up clock that rotated a smoked copper plate mounted on a drum that had a mechanical pressure gage with needle so it could make scratches on the copper as it turned and was dropped to the bottom of oil wells on the drill pipe. So what most would call a pressure-temperature recorder was called a "P-T-Bomb" in the oil field.I hope you never have a few minutes like that.C

author: Alana
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 08:43:53 pm
content: In today's world without basic knowledge of English you are screwed so that's my first choice and first foreign language. In today's world if you are not from English speaking country you learn [or at least study] English as a child so you may take it for granted.Second language, and i mean human language...In my case I'd go for Russian or German. Russian - because i may get involved with marine company that employs Russian sailors and it would be wise to be able to talk to crew members if i go fix something on a ship.German - because from what i heard there are no new jobs for foreigners in English speaking countries in Europe and in Germany i may get a job as an electrician.But if i were to recommend second language to some other person I'd say - do your own maths and consider that you may not get those top level jobs you are hoping for.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 07:27:11 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on May 25, 2013, 08:31:06 amFor an engineer involved with (Chinese) manufacturing, I would actually suggest not only plain language courses in Chinese/Mandarin/Cantonese, but also related cultural training.As writing emails in correct Mandarin but with not being aware of using a 'rude' western approach may not end up good in business.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 11:24:54 pm
content: Quote from: bitwelder on May 26, 2013, 07:27:11 amThat's why I find these languages so interesting. They are attached to a culture. It happens to some extent with more familiar languages to me like english, but China has a whole different culture. Last time I started learning a new language was when I was 10. It was english. As you may see learning a new language opens up a whole new world of information, fun and and culture!Thanks to all for sharing your thoughtsKeep it going!

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2013, 08:27:50 am
content: Quote from: bitwelder on May 26, 2013, 07:27:11 amOut of interest, how would you bring up the subject of a deficiency in a product in a way which is likely to see it addressed properly?Suppose, for example, a part has been specified by a Chinese designer, but it's under-specified in some way and needs to be replaced by something better. I don't want to offend the designer personally, but I do need to get the point across and get him to address the technical issue.Normally I'd just describe the test or calculation I've carried out and highlight the problem in a very matter-of-fact way - but most Western designers are, in my experience, more concerned with just solving problems in a technically correct, timely manner than they are in 'losing face'. I'm aware that's a much bigger issue for a Chinese engineer, but how best to highlight that he's made a mistake which needs correcting?

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2013, 02:02:00 pm
content: Obviously EnglishI communicate with Chinese developers and they all speak English (one better than the other) they even have a second 'English' name. (to make it easier outside China)How many component datasheets do you find in Chinese?

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2013, 07:40:42 pm
content: I concur with some of the above. Currently the language-de-jour is Chinese (yes that's a broad term) and requires a huge investment of time in order to learn even to a basic level. This presupposes that China is going to continue to be the only place to do manufacturing in the future, which I personally don't believe. In 5 years time, the BRICs and African nations will be flexing their industrial muscle far more. I can see India in particular being a very innovative nation.Also, I don't know of any engineers who are good at languages. Most of them struggle with English to begin with, our brains just don't seem to be wired the right way for language.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2013, 07:57:08 pm
content: the other one language: Italian. Italians sometimes can't speak/write correctly their own language...

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2013, 08:24:21 pm
content: AhahahI'm italian, and i think the italian english is the world worst. Our languages are very incompatible so for us is really difficult speech good english.

author: JonnyBoats
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2013, 08:26:31 pm
content: How about Chinglish? It seems like America is no longer producing electronics, all the production has gone to China. So if you want to be able to read one of their users manuals you better understand Chinglish

author: Balaur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2013, 09:25:29 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on May 27, 2013, 08:24:21 pmWhat? Come on!Direct quote from Wikipedia:QuoteMost Italian people I know speak better English than many French people in equivalent positions. However, I've mainly met North Italians (Piedmont)

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 07:55:13 am
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on May 27, 2013, 08:24:21 pmNaaa, its not that bad. Spaniards are the worst. Its like they speak english words, but using Spanish grammar. I interact with people from Spain almost daily and its really terrible experience.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 08:43:56 am
content: Quote from: Balaur on May 27, 2013, 09:25:29 pmWhich isn't a particularly interesting figure. It is much more important to look at the frequencies and I think you will find that English is much more Germanic than the above figure from WP implies. And then we haven't even touched upon syntax and morphology.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 08:57:19 am
content: I'd focus more on English and then add a little bit of as many languages/cultures of as you can learn.@Balaur, I've had less of a problem with France English than Italian English, but I did do primary school using Canadian French. Maybe it's because I found France French to be so weird and different compared to Quebec/Acadien French.

author: airiclenz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 10:07:49 am
content: I thought English is the chosen world-language and not only trying to be the number one. Anyway, my experience (as someone who left the "motherland" Germany) is that even with knowing English pretty well, you can be screwed. It all depends on what you want to achieve.If you want to be able to communicate internationally - it is English you need to speak.If you want to move to a specific country - even ones where everyone speaks English - it is and will always be the local language you need to learn....but there is nothing wrong to speak NERD as well! Seeing NERD as a tech-mix-language like Esperanto with everything included from a scientific understanding of things, over programming skills (her the language doesn't matter) to electronics and sci-fi.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 10:44:24 am
content: Yes if you speech to someone whit the same tecnical skills as you, you can understand and be understood, no matter of the languages.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 11:46:27 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on May 29, 2013, 07:55:13 amYep. People from Spain don't really know much english. They don't even bother pronouncing english terms properly in the news.

author: airiclenz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 12:08:46 pm
content: Quote from: ivan747 on May 29, 2013, 11:46:27 am...that is the case in a lot of languages! +French, +Swedish, ...

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 01:09:30 pm
content: Yes, and this is english "fault".The speech of various words is different from the wrote form. In italian is different. Every word is write in the same way you speech it.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 01:15:38 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on May 29, 2013, 01:09:30 pmYou've obviously never seen Chinese. Where the spoken version varies with the dialect and where the written form can vary wildly depending on the person.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 05:44:14 pm
content: You would never survive here, with 11 official languages............ Though admittedly only 4 are really spoken widely. English though is the de Facto language in the most part, though in a large part of the country very few can speak it at all well.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 05:53:57 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on May 29, 2013, 05:44:14 pmThere are parts of England like that too

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 07:28:13 pm
content: British english in incomprensible, i can't understand it....

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 10:59:01 pm
content: For electrical engineering, English is without doubt the language to know. Datasheets, application notes, literature,...The second engineering language would be German, IMO. That is especially true here in Slovenia, since most of the bigger companies here have some sort of connection with Germany. We have quite a few manufacturers here, who make parts for the German automotive industry.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 12:29:23 am
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on May 29, 2013, 07:28:13 pmThankfully, I can understand most accents, even british.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 05:15:38 am
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on May 29, 2013, 07:28:13 pmThat is a matter of training. Tune your Internet radio tohttp://www.bbc.co.uk/worldserviceradio/on-airand just let it run in the background. No need to actively listen. It is more about getting used to the sound of it.They are no longer exclusively doing the high class "BBC English" they were doing in the past, and are often just speaking like real people.For contrast, get a girl friend from Essex

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 08:30:23 am
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on May 29, 2013, 07:28:13 pm

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 01:50:00 pm
content: I cant understand that either, and I am english, that is Irish travelers (diddy coy's) and they have a lingo all to themselves.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/Smileys/default/smiley_laughing.gifMind you I cant understand geordies and as for Glasweigens they might as well be Dutch or Greek. The people who speak english the best are the Germans, their grammar and pronunciation are absolutely impeccable.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 08:04:07 pm
content: I think another aspect to this language thing is that learning another language is hard and takes a lot of time. I had no desire to spend my time doing it in high school (spanish... yay!), and I still have no desire to spend my time doing it now. I have other things that I actually enjoy doing, and there are plenty of technical things I can both enjoy and work hard at to advance my skills and career. All things considered, if I hired an interpreter every time I really had to interact with someone speaking another language, I would probably still save money vs lost opportunity spending the time to actually become fluent in another language. Especially if that other language was an Asian one.This is all based around my already knowing English though, and not having been forced to at least begin to learn a professionally useful language when I was younger.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 08:09:24 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on May 30, 2013, 08:30:23 amI've had several british math profs at my university, they were perfectly understandable (both new to north america).Aussie english on the other hand should be it's own language.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 08:26:55 pm
content: "British English" is an odd term, I wonder where it came from? One of Microsoft's installers, perhaps?The clue is in the name: "English". The language that originated, and is spoken, in England. It's not a term that requires qualification.There's no "French French", for example, as distinct from the variation spoken in Canada. Nobody refers to "Spanish Spanish" to differentiate it from how that language is used in Mexico. Brazilian Portuguese is quite unambiguously a dielect of Portuguese, the language spoken in Portugal.So why the term "British English"? Why not simply, "English"?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 08:41:45 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on May 30, 2013, 08:26:55 pmBecause they could not think of American English as being the debased language it is, where you cannot even spell colour correctly, let alone construct sentences that are both grammatically correct and understandable.But then again I am biased, I do not speak either language.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 06:20:03 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on May 30, 2013, 08:04:07 pmKnowing second language goes beyond being ale to communicate. It reshapes your brain development at young age. Basically children that learned second language grow up to be smarter.http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121008082953.htmhttp://www.cal.org/resources/digest/0012brain.htmlhttp://www.livescience.com/12917-learning-language-bilingual-protects-alzheimers.htmlNot to mention knowing second language primes you to learn another language a lot faster. Even "useless spanish" is beneficial.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 06:26:21 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on May 30, 2013, 08:41:45 pmWe're just better engineers than you - we improved the efficiency of our language by removing unnecessary silent letters. While you are slowly typing out all those extra Us, we have extra time to say "derrrr, how do you spell 'green'?".

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 06:33:28 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on May 30, 2013, 08:26:55 pmBecause a "rocket salad" makes sense to brits/aussies but confuses the living hell out of north americans.

author: eps
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 07:12:36 am
content: - English, since we are forced to learn it because of the current political situation (as it was Latin, French, German and Russian before, and maybe Standard Chinese will become soon).- Esperanto, to improve international communication in the long term. Also to learn how many concepts of engineering can be applied to linguistics.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 07:39:46 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on May 31, 2013, 06:26:21 amyeah, i saw where it goes (Idiocracy movie)

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 07:51:22 am
content: Quote from: tinhead on May 31, 2013, 07:39:46 amWht mv r y tlkng bt? Wrth t s?

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 07:57:57 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on May 31, 2013, 07:51:22 amof course ! the best non sci-fi movie ever,http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 10:57:21 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on May 31, 2013, 07:51:22 amI'm kind of horrified that i read that as normal before double-taking and seeing what a horror of word shortening had just been unleashed on the internet

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 05:31:52 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on May 31, 2013, 06:20:03 amI totally agree that learning a second language, especially at a young age, is a good thing. I also don't think high school is young enough and the fact you have Spanish and French to choose from in most US high schools is pretty limited. I was just saying that I personally didn't have that exposure when I was young so it's even harder for me.I also never said spanish was useless, just that I had no desire to learn any language and realistically speaking knowing spanish wouldn't really help me much at my job at this point. I do know a guy that had to deal with some manufacturing sites in Mexico, and that dude spoke fluent spanish and I'm sure it came in handy.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 06:20:53 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on May 31, 2013, 05:31:52 pmI find that understandable. The more languages a school offers, the smaller the classes become. The more money per pupil needs to be invested. And it becomes more difficult to find language teachers and keep them busy. There is only so much a school can do. Spanish, French and maybe Portuguese also seem to make the most sense when looking at your neighbors. And all the languages a school offers need to be more or less on the same level of difficulty, which rules out any Chines dialect, or exotic stuff like Finnish.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 06:56:26 pm
content: oooh my god finnish is also really not understandable.when a see nightwish video (a famous finnish band) and they start speak finnish looks like chinese!!!

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2013, 03:56:32 am
content: Forget economic indicators, business or career considerations.Instead, consider if you would want your daughter dating a man whose native tongue is that language. If she is serious about being proficient with a foreign language she will need a study partner, a practice partner, they will spend a lot of time together reading poetry and you know, they're in high school.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2013, 12:56:51 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on May 30, 2013, 08:26:55 pmThere is of course French-French. The French dialect spoken by Canadians, or American's Louisiana French are rather different from each other and from "French French".As to English-English,it is more formally called Queen's English. It differs from American English or So. African English or...Example of the difference:Color / ColourAluminum / AluminiumBefore the days of the internet when folks were a bit less exposed to each other:While in America and you asked the waitress for a napkin, you get a paper-towel to wipe with.While in some parts of England you asked the waitress for a napkin, well, you are a freak. Napkin is a very personal item that ladies use about once a month.While in America, you go buy a rubber and chances are you are having sex later.In some parts of the world, you buy a rubber if you are writing in pencil and need to use an eraser (rubber-eraser) to correct mistakes.So, Queen's English say it one way where as other-English say it another way.There you go.Rick

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2013, 09:00:12 pm
content: Quote from: Zad on May 27, 2013, 07:40:42 pmIt may not be what one wishes who will grow. Rather, it may be “Are the BRIC’s ready for big league economy?” Of the BRIC’s except China, the BRI's OECD PISA test score shows they are no where near ready for the big time. (OECD PISA is OECD is Organization for Economic Cooperation and PISA is the Development, Programme for International Student Assessment).From Wiki, below is the latest available (2009) PISA ranking listed first is Math then Science then ReadingBrazil 63 59 57Russia 38 39 42India 72 72 72China 1 1 1While India and China both did not test nation-wide, the area that participated shows China with such clear lead it is down right ridiculous to consider BRIC as a group. China’s physical and human infrastructure is ready or nearly ready for the big league. I am not sure I can say the same for the BRI part of BRIC.One can say, okay, that is old, what about the future? Let’s look at another set of numbers. Johns Hopkins University (JHU) just held their Center for Talented Youth (CTY) High Honors award for 2012 and 2013 2nd to 8th grade. To go for the CTY admission test, you must be top 5% of international standardized test such as Terra Nova, SAT, ACT, SCAT or STB. Being top 5% qualifies you to take the admission test alone, and of course not every one who took the admission test gets in. I think half to 2/3 do. So, CTY is 2/3 of top 5% so likely top 2-3%. Of these, less than 25% are High Honors.So, kids who will be the future of these countries. How do they compare? Below the numbers of CTY High Honors for 2nd-8th grade 2012&2013Brazil: 16Russia: 2India: 23China (excluding Hong Kong): 171Hong Kong alone: 343(I counted the number by hand from a printed list. so I may be a few off here and there, but the difference is too huge for a few to make a difference.)As interesting comparison,Singapore: 40South Korea: 386Africa: 6 totalEgypt: 1, Mozambique 1, Niger 1, Nigeria 2, Zambia 1Spanish-Speaking South America countries: 10 totalArgentina: 2, Columbia: 3, Mexico: 1, Panama: 1, Peru 3So looking at kids who will be taking the charge in another 10 years... Of the BRIC’s, China with the huge lead has youth most ready to compete. You add Hong Kong in, their numbers just ran away. For South America and Africa, this shows youth talent-wise, they are clearly not in the same growth path.Fortune 100, PISA, Youth achievement. These three metrics said China is in its own league comparing to either BRI(no C) or Spanish speaking South America or Africa.Rick

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2013, 09:24:18 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on June 02, 2013, 09:00:12 pmI don't know how you reached this conclusion from test scores. At best they will be influencers; and that is if they have the right social skills and opportunity. From very unscientific observations the world over, the consensus among the led is they are led by idiots.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2013, 10:51:51 pm
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on June 02, 2013, 09:24:18 pmOkay, it may take a little longer than 10 years, but kids in 2nd-8th will be taking the charge of building their society sooner or later, smart or dumb, educated or otherwise.How I drew the conclusion:In one word: ProbabilityThese kids (at 7th/8th) already beat the average college-bound seniorsbefore age 13- that is a/the criteria of CTY's high honor. So, this metric is saying over 500 kids in China and Hong Kong at 13 or under already tested better than average kids (worldwide) heading for college.(I am using the term smart loosely here, to be precise, I mean intelligent and achieving. )Granted, you cannot say good SAT (ACT, SCAT, STB) score means the kid will create better electronic or better cars when they grow up; but it ismore probable that proven-smart kids grow up to be smart adults- more probable thanthose who yet to prove themselves as kids to grow up to be smart adults. Individuals may differ, but as a large group, statistics will take over.So that is how I concluded they will have more smart-adults once these kid grow to the age to take charge.Achievement is a habit and is addictive. Those who "came home with the trophy" want to do it again. So they are more likely to be adult-achievers as well.RickPS: I am not sure what you mean by LED. I omitted that in the reply. Please elaborate.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2013, 03:09:20 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on June 02, 2013, 10:51:51 pmNo question these are smart kids and will not only do well for themselves but also be an asset to their respective society. You said though that they will be in charge. That's very different. Conspiracy theories about secret societies aside, being in charge of anything significant in government or business is not a random event in any society so your appeal to probability is misplaced.Maybe I misunderstand what you mean by "taking the charge". In that case, my bad.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2013, 05:06:24 am
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on June 03, 2013, 03:09:20 amYup, that was the misunderstand."Taking the charge" as in taking on the responsibility. These currently 2nd-8th graders will be in 10 years staffing their countries' research institutes, factories, design shops, etc.No doubt some of these CTY kids will flame out, but no doubt many will survive and do well. At under 13, some has taken the SAT twice. I understand some 10 year old's already taken Calculus II. So these kids have discipline, tenacity, and a will to achieve. These kids in all probability, will have great influence in their nation's future.That China has more in the pipe line is "what is" but not what has to be or what will be. But "what is" today will control the pipeline for the near future. The last of the two metrics I cited were PISA scores and CTY which show their pipe lines are better packed as compared to other BRI (no C), Africa, and South America. The first metric 2009's domicile for Fortune 100 firms in part show the result thus far. Today there are more mandarin speaking Fortune 100 firms than Swahili and Spanish combined many times over.We The US of A has a lot to worry. We barely rank 30 with math and science. We are at great risk if we don't change course soon and right our ship. Dr. Ben Carson of Johns Hopkins Hospital head of pediatric neurosurgery, and the first doctor to successfully separate Siamese Twins joined at the brain; he was right on target when he said: "What helps the country (move forward) more? The ability of kids to solve quadratic equation or the ability to shoot 30 feet hoops?" This man cares about kids. I have some personal experience with his actions last year. I have no doubt he genuinely cares about kids and education.If we Americans are not aggressively achieving and rewarding merit, we are at risk of the Chinese someday say: "Why would you buy those cheap junk from America. They only know how to do cheap manufacturing." That, my friend, may be our future unless we too aggressively achieve. We need to treat our kids as the treasure that they are, and remember that they are our future.Rick

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2013, 05:51:04 am
content: By the way, with the frequency Google is mentioned in this forum... I missed agood way of pointing out the achievements and impact of CTY kids: bothGoogle and Facebook were co-founded by CTY kids. Those specific CTY kids certainly not just influenced their own nation, they influenced how we interact with each other - world wide. (That they were once a CTY kid was according to a CTY staff in a prep talk to kids.)Rick

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2013, 08:13:24 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on June 02, 2013, 12:56:51 amI am English (actually Anglo-Irish) and I'd never heard of the second use of the word Napkin you referred to, so I looked it up in the Oxford English Dictionary andit appears as a minor variant but of North American English - so nowhere in England has it had that use but in some parts of America it does. The English use Napkin for either a serviette or more rarely to refer to a handkerchief. (I'm interested in words because I do cryptic crosswords.)

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2013, 03:51:36 pm
content: Quote from: jpb on June 03, 2013, 08:13:24 amInteresting. A x-boss of eons (20+ yrs) told me that to us after I asked about his recent business trip to England. So I took his words for it.Rick

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2013, 05:28:29 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on June 03, 2013, 05:06:24 amI'm not sure there is a lot to worry about for the US. They won the "space race" not having been the best in the world at that time. As I read about it, it was not until after Sputnik, there was a surge of focus on science and math that, within few short years, put their men on the moon. There was also a similar surge during WWII. They did this without any hand-wringing over standardized test results.It would be foolish to say the US cannot once again marshal this kind of focus and output in education and production. They after all still possess all the needed assets to make this so. What is missing is the urgency to excel in math and science as that urgency does take away from enjoying their high standard of living. So until China and others give the US another "Sputnik" scare, these countries will be no more than a source of cheap labor. Standardized test results just don't have the same effect.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2013, 06:14:30 pm
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on June 03, 2013, 05:28:29 pmWhile the discussion about CTY kids in China is related to China and the value of learning Mandarin as language, a discussion about our current decrepit education system will veer too far off the original topic.I think we have good reason to worry as evident by our national debt and misguided focus in Washington. We are today merely a shadow of our former self and accelerating our decline by the minute. If you are interested in that discussion,start a new thread and I may join in. I am rather reluctant to discuss politicsas I have some very strong view. I am passionate about education as I have a kid in K-12. So passionate that you may find my view hard to take.

author: kxenos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2013, 07:05:52 pm
content: For me the answer in the OP's question is it doesn't matter. Taking English for granted, as it has become the world's de facto engineering language, all other languages are left for all the other uses. French is the international language of diplomats etc. German is the language of most geniuses and the language of engineering perfection. Chinese is the language of one of the oldest and more complicated civilizations. Japanese is the language of the smartest persons I ever met and of the most admired civilization. Some examples only of some of the reasons one should learn any foreign language. I think I'm not in the subject any more but learning foreign languages and more importantly foreign cultures is the way to open your eyes to a hole new world of concepts and ideas. The thing I will try to teach to my kids is that they should be citizens of the world, open to new ideas and foreign cultures and to respect difference. In any case I'm not able to predict if for example learning chinese will help them making better living than learning hindu or russian or arabic and this is a good thing. Life has infinite crossroads, you can't know where she'll throw you. (She because she is a woman)Arrigato gosaimasita

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2013, 07:43:40 pm
content: Some side benefit (in my view) often overlooked but should be considered:(1) It is said by some researcher that tonal language (such as Chinese, Vietnamese) develops different areas of the brain. So, if you know both,perhapsyou developed more areas of the brain you can use - like learning music, perhaps? Hey, doesn't hurt trying...(2) If there is no immediate/overriding reason for a specific language, I believe it would be beneficial to learn different type of language than your mother tongue. If point 1 above is indeed true (and logically I don't see why not), a different type of language may do that too. Besides, something entirely different should expand your horizon more than something that is merely slightly different. What I mean by a different type of language is:One type of difference is character-based vs alphabet based. Another type is construct: as I understand (correct me if I am wrong), Spanish, Italian, and French are Latin based language, whereas, northern Europe uses Germanic based language. So Germanic v Latin is somewhat of a different type. More strongly different types would be say between Germanic languages and Chinese; or between English and Arabic.If you learned a different type of language and something about the other culture as well:(3) Often one wants a different point of view and found no one to discuss with for second point of view... Frame the problem in your "other" language. I am bilingual and English is not my mother tongue. I learned that when I frame the question in Chinese, I may have an entirely different perspective than when I frame the question in English. With very important issues, I make myself go two steps: think it through describing the problem, the pros, cons, justification and the decision in first Chinese; then do the whole thing again in English. I will find differences. Discerning and resolving the differences allows me to see the problem more clearly and (at least I believe) made better decisions. As the saying goes: "two heads is better than one," and my addition to that: but when two is not available, improvise...Rick

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2013, 10:05:00 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on June 03, 2013, 06:14:30 pmI am tempted to engage about the education system to hear your opinions. But I have done so on the topic about a year and a half ago herehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/amphour/complaining-about-the-'broken-education-system'-is-getting-old/and it was exhausting. I don't think I want to go through that again and I don't think the EEVBlog forum is ready to rehash everything once more.What I take away from that thread and my discussion about education in other corners of the web is there has been enough talk, we know what needs to be done. The next step for anyone is to organize around their respective prescriptions for education and start influencing elections. Or, for parents as I am, simply be pro-active in their child's education.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2013, 11:21:04 pm
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on June 03, 2013, 10:05:00 pmAmen to that! (I am not religeous, but I can't think of a better expression.)Quote from: PeteInTexas on June 03, 2013, 10:05:00 pmOkay, I will share my view in brief with a fellow proactive parent. But I am passionate, so be prepare for passionate statements.I think what we are doing to our kids is down right criminal. Worst yet, we are sliding further down. This new program named by a Boston think tank as "Race to the Middle" is more like "Race to the Bottom". You can search for "race to the middle" and find out more about why. This program is being sold to the America public as getting kids ready for college. If parents leave their children entirely to the education establishment, under this program, the kids will be less ready for college than before.Kids are coming out of middle school not having been taught arithmetic or grammar. They cannot even read script writing. To further dilute merit, they are graded on volunteering. This force volunteering makes a mockery of volunteering.Kids are taught to "just get along" and "just go along" and "condoms negotiation". Everyone gets a trophy so no kids feeling is hurt. But they are not taught reading, writing, arithmetic, and the virtual of hard work.You are a proactive parent, so you already know. You must have already seen what I saw. Some parent proudly announced that their kid is in the school's honor class yet cannot understand why they totally screw up in SAT. Well, being best among dummies doesn't make you good.I, as a proactive parent also, sat in a "get your kid ready for college" discussion headed by a Counselor of that high school, and an admission guy. A parent asked: "When should I begin thinking about SAT". The answer was,don't until the kid is in 11th. You start with PSAT (pre-SAT) at 11th and take SAT at 12th.. My goodness, these under-13 year old kids in China done their SAT and beat our college bound seniors. You know in sizable neighborhoods during SAT tests, there is a room for the the 13 and under to go because well, they are too little. Yet these 6, 7th graders are taking the SAT coming out saying "it is easy." In fact, SAT is held at that very school regularly, and probably an under 13 room is right in that school.I was a volunteer for a regular parent-operated teaching group(unrelated to the school but rents the school facility).So I was there most Saturdays during school year for 6 years. I saw those little ones walked out when done. If this high school counselor doesn't know each time they have a roomful of under 13's taking SAT, why is she being a counselor?I know this other proactive parent (use to be coworkers, part time janitor at my work place). She is asingle divorced mom, fresh and legal immigrant from Mexico.She works three jobs to save up money so her kid can go to the local catholic schoolbecause she believes it has better academic standard.Then there are other kinds. I know a few other parents complaining about their school and I asked: "Why not put him in the catholic school, I heard they have high academic standards." The answer was: "I can't afford it." That was a fine answer until an hour later I saw her drove off with her brand new Mercedes SUV. The following week I saw her, I want to validate what I saw. I cunningly congratulated her on her new car (hoping she would say it is not her's). But she confirmed by saying how she really likes it.. blah blah blah. What are we doing to our kids! What is she doing with HER own kid. What kind of priority is that.I spend a morning talking to the school principal, the vice principal, and the counselor finding out about the local public school. Two-three hours later near noon time (ice broken), one of them slipped and said "I moved because I think XXX has a better school for my daughter." And she expected me to send my child under their care! She is not even alone. In another environment elsewhere unrelated to this public school, I know two others: a public school teacher - she send her kid to the catholic school for the academics (that was her words). Another being a principal at a public school, and she sends her kid to a private Christian school.The first problem is the parents. They allow the education establishment to treat their kid as a retirement plan.The second problem is the education establishment. They treats the kids as their retirement plan.(Note that I did not say teachers, there are some very good ones)Read Dr. Carson's books. I have absolutely no doubt he genuinely cares about kids and education.Oh, boy, is that a rant or what...(reedited a couple of times for typo and grammar but no meaningful changes)

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2013, 04:39:55 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on June 03, 2013, 11:21:04 pmI appreciate your passion for the subject and glad we both agree that parents must take a proactive role in their children's education. I really think this is a huge piece of the effort. For my part, being proactive at this point simply means reading to my young ones and showing them real things.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2013, 03:30:47 pm
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on June 04, 2013, 04:39:55 am(Since kid education is important, allow me to stay on this distraction for one more post...)Yeah, I gave up Saturdays for 6 years, I volunteered at this parent-operated weekend school. I saw all kinds of parents. From those who put their kid first, to those who prefers vacations over anything. Some took the kid to the school for them to learn, and to better themselves, some merely parked their kids so they can go shopping.I got more and more grey (in heart). How silly of me, silly enough to have imagined that almost every parent treat their kids as the treasure they are, but no, some treats their kids as mere burdens. Yup there are a lot of parents who put their kid first, but there are far too many "the other kinds": They want their kids in "honors" so they can show off, so they can say to others: "see, I am a good parent" but yet pay no attention to what if anything had been learned. No grammar... Math by feel... Yup, she is doing great, mostly A's. "A" in what if no grammar or math is taught?Kids are our future. Be it our own kid, or someone else's kid. Some day, we will live in a world run by these kids turned adults. I should think just for selfish reasons alone we should make sure these kids have the best opportunity possible.Teach the kid some electronics, some physics, some history, some whatever, just give them the knowledge and judgement. Just give them your time and attention. Do so to the best of our abilities so we may some day live in a world ran by the grown up form of these good kids instead of (you know what)...(Yeah, I did the same thing to other parents at even at an archery range when I took my daughter there to give her a reward fun-outing she earned; I did the same thing to the parents of the kid running the lemonade stand at the intersection. I don't even like lemonade, but I buy a lemonade just so I can talk to the parents, tell them about this program and that program, tell them about hey, forget that A+ the kid came home with until you know how it is given out, because the A+ may be given out merely in rotation. Look at the work book the kid came home with, asked them what they learned... The better your kid is, the better the chance I got for a good future - your kid may just be running the world I live in someday.)I shall now shut up. Beside, I got other things I must do...Rick

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2013, 04:34:41 pm
content: Usually the words ending in "ing as in Fu- -ing thing,when it bites them or releases the blue magic smoke. and and another I heard it s _it, when a mistake has been made, I've heard the boss been called a a word ending in ard as in Bast,, The best one is unrepeatable, when after touching the HT side of an old TV, the engineer had a string of swear words even I never heard before, for at least 10 minutes.

author: kerrinal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2013, 07:32:09 am
content: English of course.Chinese is hard to learn and useless for an engineer.I you want to program a project.English is a must.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2013, 11:43:37 am
content: English has long been the DE-facto standard in electronics, engineering and computers, It has been said that no other language can be so carefully put, so exactly defined and precise that other languages pail in comparison.

author: 4to20Milliamps
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2013, 11:56:35 am
content: Having worked with Chinese engineers I know for a fact you can get past the language barrier over time, but if you don't understand math.....the universal language it will be much more difficult.and it could cost you money:

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 12:26:07 am
content: Quote from: kxenos on June 03, 2013, 07:05:52 pmCarlin sounds like a bitter old burned out sack o' nuts.