Sukhoi Su-24 flight data recorder teardown video - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: firehacker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 08:59:28 am
content: It's quite rare to see what is inside military aircraft flight data recorder, isn't it? Especially when we talking about russian Su-24 bomber.This time they are trying to disassemble FDR module of the plane that was shot down by Turkey. And they decided to perform this procedure publicly.Live streaming from the lab:The guy doing translation is horrible, btwUPD. Live stream has ended. Unfortunately most of flash chips are destroyed. They have just put PCBs into a safe.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 10:20:39 am
content: Did anyone else wince during that disassembly?!Also, I didn't spot (perhaps not watching closely enough), but the two outer shells didn't seem to have any visible incursion... how did the memory boards internally get damaged?I can understand impact/G-forces, but those units are designed to stand a lot... but to mash most if the flash chips is a serious design flaw, or drilling through the inner shell wasn't such a good idea after all...!Self-protection anti-tamper mechanism? Chips glued to frame, so they are damaged as you separate the stacked components?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 10:26:31 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on December 18, 2015, 10:20:39 amThere is a big hole in the corner on the bottom.

author: firehacker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 10:29:55 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on December 18, 2015, 10:20:39 amYou are not aloneQuoteYou can see quite a serious "injury" on the bottomside at 0:52.QuoteApparently the PCB bended exactly at the moment of impact. PCB material is way more flexible than chips, so while the bord simply bends, chips on it crack.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 10:44:56 am
content: This must be a joke, right? 2 pcb's 'flapping in the breeze' as Dave would say, how can that even withstand a little bit of impact?And then they go X-ray the thing, like if you can't see that most (all?) of the chips are broken into pieces...Also, there's a lot of pieces missing, where are they?

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 10:54:51 am
content: ok, my apology to those boards!!... I must have been wincing (skipping over the board room shots) and missed the major dent!That in itself sort of surprises me, I really didn't expect that type of damage - not being a cast outer case with force ablation layers...?

author: firehacker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 11:04:46 am
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on December 18, 2015, 10:44:56 amLaying inside the inner shell (watch the video from 34:38 to 35:05). By the way, they forgot to put these fragments of chips into the safe

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 11:35:03 am
content: Torx screws might have been a bit easier! Or is flathead good for some reason (other than ease of manufacture, which hardly seems like a consideration for a fighter jet)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 11:37:29 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on December 18, 2015, 10:54:51 amFlight recorder was in the aicraft tail part where the rocket hit.Quote from: firehacker on December 18, 2015, 11:04:46 amThey are pretty useless anyway.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 11:45:16 am
content: Quote from: firehacker on December 18, 2015, 10:29:55 amboth PCBs are broken too BTW. As I see, only 2 out of 8 memory ICs probably could survive. All others completely broken or with cracks in them.

author: firehacker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 11:47:14 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 18, 2015, 11:37:29 amWho knows... I believe silicon crystals themselves may have no cracks, but only plastic packages have cracked. In this case you can relatively easily connect to the chip and make dumps.Even if there are some minor damages to the crystals... back in the days USSR engineers used to reverse-engineer "foreign" chips doing layer-by-layer etching.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 11:48:05 am
content: Although I know nothing about such, but 4 stand-offs? Wouldn't one fill with silicone, or some other impact gel/pad/etc between the boards and housing?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 11:59:02 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on December 18, 2015, 11:48:05 amdunno but on the photos of western flight recorders I have seen, this is done similarly without any silicone or other filling. Though the way how they are mounted is dubious. Should have done at least some frame.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 12:01:53 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 18, 2015, 11:59:02 amI've only seen the ones with the tape, and there you don't care about the electronics once it went down. I'm not an aviation engineer but for me it just looks wrong...

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 06:51:59 pm
content: Thanks for the video. The damage looks bad - worse than I would have expected of hardware that's supposed to be pretty much indestructible. Particularly when it's Russian.There are a few other teardown videos on youtube of similar (although older) devices:

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 07:45:47 pm
content: The protective box withstand the impact. The way how PCBs were mounted and parts used are what killed it. PCBs are completely bent with moutning points broken off. Only 2 out of 16 flash ICs on both boards seem to be in one piece. Probably it was designed in Russia's dark times in 90's - early 2000's. Flash IC's seem to be usual consumer/commercial grade stuff in long and very thin case, they just broken under their own weight/PCB bending. I googled a bit and it seems that modern flight recorder memory PCBs are just held in damping material without any mounting points, what will avoid different force among the PCB and therefore avoid bending.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 07:55:43 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on December 18, 2015, 10:44:56 amX-RAY .. FLASH ...AND THE WAY THEY OPENED THIS. DRILLS, PRYING WITH SCREWDRIVERS. CRAPPY CUTTERSreally ? they might as well have used a backhoe and a crowbar.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 08:16:01 pm
content: This was interesting.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 08:37:22 pm
content: All those layers of thermal insulation for that sort of consumer grade internal construction and rigid board corner mounting? How many military planes catch fire without crashing?

author: firehacker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 08:40:48 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 18, 2015, 07:45:47 pmVery likely to be truth. At least I can see hand-written number which I believe is a date.The only problem with it is that second digit looks more like 4 rathen then 9.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 09:03:08 pm
content: Wow, what kind of fail is that PCB mount? What where they thinking?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 09:42:07 pm
content: The fun part that made me laugh was at 3.42. Someone silently said in Russian (rough translation, IMO impossible to accurately translate): "those goats (morons) should be exposed to educational program".

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 09:55:57 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 18, 2015, 07:55:43 pmEr, you did see the massive dent in the corner of this thing? There comes a certain point where you have to say that just about anything a human could inflict on this thing (hey, even with a crowbar) isn't going to change the final outcome...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 10:03:52 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 18, 2015, 09:42:07 pm"These morons should go back to scohol"

author: firehacker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 10:10:18 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 18, 2015, 10:03:52 pmTo be more precise, he said:QuoteIt is not clear who did he call goats: technicians that were trying to unscrew bolts (which is more likely), foreign observers in the lab room or reporters in the press room.Also, some ppl think he said "kak vzlamyvat" (how to crack this open) rather than "kozlam etim" (these goats)

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 10:25:42 pm
content: Quote from: rs20 on December 18, 2015, 09:55:57 pmyes i did see it. all the more reason to be very careful not to inflict more damage.it looked very amateurish ... .properly done one would dissolve that white stuff, then open the insides properly. no drilling no hammering , no prying with screwdrivers.did you see how he cut those boards apart ? that cutter is way too large. should have done with excelta's or lindstroms, not an electricians cutter made for 4mm square wire ...

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 10:28:24 pm
content: Quote from: firehacker on December 18, 2015, 10:10:18 pmI LOVE this Forum, where else could you get such international insights

author: rch
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2015, 12:02:35 am
content: Did anyone else think the board may have been bent in assembly when the external cable was pulled too tight?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2015, 04:07:01 am
content: Reason for flat head screws is because all USSR made stuff uses a special design of USSR made flat head screw, and it has a thinner slot than the Western flat head screw. That way they could tell instantly if a product was local make or a import, as the import would use a Phillips, Posi or JIS head screw. The flight recorder was probably designed to withstand a fire in the aircraft, not a fall out of the sky after being hit with a missile, which typically will be a heat seeker aiming right at it. I know of one pilot who landed the plane after the missile removed a large part of the rear.The chips themselves can be read, even if cracked, though the cost is going to be higher and you will really need the original designs to see where to probe the individual cells, using a head similar to the probe fixture Dave got from Vincent as a teardown. Complete chips are easier, but even partial chips can be read, though the data will need to be decoded as to where it actually was on the chip itself and might not be a linear write through the cells. Does rathger look like standard Western made flash with a USSR made controller chip on the boards.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 03:00:28 am
content: Surely the way to mount PCBs in something like that is NOT to use rigid pillars, which transmit shock to the PCBs but to have them floating in a soft filler material with plenty of space around, so any impact just moves them around instead of bending the PCB.Was disappointed to not see a shot of the inside of the inner enclosure to show that the PCB damage was plausible, and whether there were any chip pieces in there, and if not, was there a big enough hole for them to have fallen out - from what we saw it could just as easily have been whacked with a hammer.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 03:12:49 am
content: I do NOT envy the guy doing the disassembly, with so many people watching. Especially when it became difficult due to the screws seized from impact deformation.Hands up who else can use tools skillfully enough, unless someone is watching - in which case you become an apparently incompetent stumblebum?Also to have to resort to hammering and drilling, in that situation... awkward.Heh, and they really didn't expect that. At 19:09, that looks like a concrete nail he's using to centerpunch the head of the screw, to drill it out. Well it works...So amusing to see all the members of the press, bored to distraction by having to wait a few minutes while some guy drills out a few screws.Weird they didn't have a small vacuum cleaner, to suck the insulation dust out of the recorder as they dug down inside it. You'd think they'd expect that. Since this is supposedly a room used for many international flight recorder accident investigations. Had to bring a standard vacuum cleaner in from outside.Hmm... All three nested cases are cast alloy, and quite thick. With compressible insulation between them. That would probably be good enough for impact damping from an aircraft hitting the ground. But that hole in the outer case was made by a high velocity shrapnel from the missile, and it looks like it penetrated to and damaged the second casing as well. Hence the seized screws in that one's lid. I guess that explains the extremely high G forces that smashed the boards and chips. The direction of breakage is consistent with a high G impulse due to the case penetration impact. On the underside of the bottom PCB, the flash chips pulled away from the PCB by their own mass... I wonder what the actual G force is, required to do that?It's a pity. The Russians know their plane never entered Turkish airspace, and the shootdown was a prepared ambush with no justification. But it would have been useful to be able to prove it via indisputable public process.At least they still scored points for opening a black box in public, as opposed to the total secrecy of all such Western investigations in recent decades.

author: firehacker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 03:13:34 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 20, 2015, 03:00:28 am

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 10:11:21 am
content: Quote from: firehacker on December 20, 2015, 03:13:34 amNot clear enough - shows no signs of incursion, in fact surprisingly little damage on the visible part.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 10:12:49 am
content: Do they not have bandsaws in Russia? That would have been be a low-trauma way to remove the casings.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 10:49:51 am
content: Maybe the case was impacted by the projectile that shot the plane down. That would have cause significantly more g forces than the crass. Are those recorders designed to survive 20mm ammunition?Alexander.

author: firehacker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 11:16:37 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 20, 2015, 10:12:49 amI bet there is no bandsaw in this lab. But let me translate what two dudes are talking at ninth minute:Quote

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 01:49:21 pm
content: QuoteI don't know if anything that's off-the-shelf or is not specially built for this can survive stuff that involves this large acceleration. Look at military or aerospace PCBs - very different construction techniques, IC packages...

author: zoltan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 07:08:17 pm
content: Just watched the video (up to 40') and I'd like to ask.There are "services" for reverse engineering processors, flash, etc for reasonable low prices commercially available. Is reading a broken flash chip so much difficult? Considering that you are the manufacturer of the product, and know how it works, how hard it can be? Cost is not an issue.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 07:32:34 pm
content: Quote from: zoltan on December 20, 2015, 07:08:17 pmOnly chip made in USSR is the cerdip controller, the rest is generic Hynix or some other brand Flash, just like is used in your SSD drives. Easy to read if the chip is still intact, and even if it is cracked you can still read the data off the broken bits if really needed, after a decap and clean.

author: zoltan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 07:53:39 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 20, 2015, 07:32:34 pmThat's the point. The controller is SSSR made, so they know the storage algorithm. The flash chips are (probably) generic, and even if broken, or shattered (that would be pain in a**) I believe the data can be restored. Could the flash chip be read by optical means? If you have part of the chip and take a hi-res photo of it under different wavelengths? Of course after decapping and cleaning.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 08:18:14 pm
content: QuoteTo the best of my knowledge no. The data is stored as a charge that is either present or not - not producing any optical effects.QuoteRussian, not SSSR, USSR etc.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 21, 2015, 03:52:36 pm
content: http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=2700775#Only 1 out of 16 ICs survived. They also told that will see if they can read the data out of the dies.The hole penetrates up to the internal container.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2015, 06:26:10 pm
content: I would expect a different construction, this looks like a design fail.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2015, 06:49:57 pm
content: The extend of the penetration (The noticed it and said F.U.B.A.R.), could "justify" the crudity of the operation.Alexander.

author: reagle
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 24, 2015, 07:30:06 pm
content: A nice writeup by somebody familiar with Soviet technologies (sorry, it's in Russian)https://www.drive2.ru/b/2615302Gist : "55 minutes of public shame. From using German screwdrivers on Soviet sized screw slots, to COTS Flash chips and 4 layer boards supported by corners".And then how this kind of stuff should be /was done in the past.I like the quote:"Despite anti-static smocks and gloves, the impression is of a company of drunkards who found a rusty thingie and are trying to extract precious metals from it"Mostly things this thread covered one way or another

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2015, 07:53:09 pm
content: Thanks for the link, I'm fascinated by the picture of the ceramic hybrids assembly with green feedthroughs. So that was what shockproof electronics was like in the Soviet era?

author: reagle
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 24, 2015, 07:58:37 pm
content: I think those are space grade boards from 1992.And then the board broken in pieces is from an exploded rocket of sorts

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2015, 08:05:57 pm
content: Thanks, it makes sense that the feedthroughs would be for hard vacuum applications. The Bosch ABS assembly also looks very shock resistant:The ceramic or CEM4 board is evenly supported by cement against a metal plate, and bond wires used for connections. It would need careful design to ensure that shorting the wires together wouldn't disrupt already stored data.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2015, 08:18:11 pm
content: Hand soldered, so not really shock proof, probably a RF front end for some satellite receiver or earth station, made with all Russian made parts. The Bosch boards are an example of what you do to make stuff vibration proof, not putting the thin boards where vibration and forces are applied only to the weakest point of the board and where the most flexing can occur.Using a decent ceramic core with bonding wires as storage would be easy, you just do your assembly and final testing then carefully conformal coat with flexible reenterable silicone conformal coat, so that all the wiring bonds are fixed firmly and do not move, though they might flex. The ceramic could be in a hybrid housing, extra protection and a lot more rugged than the PCB, and you can make the long walls thicker for added support, as you do not have many feedthroughs in this case with an on board controller. Then the lid is laser welded on after a final fill with encapsulant. That could fit in the same volume, but be a lot more rugged, especially if you use a simple silicone sleeve as both protection and mounting, spreading the mount over the entire container.

author: Scrts
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2015, 08:54:38 pm
content: And somebody believes that russians did not open that box before?If they had information, that the bomber did not cross Turkey border, the box would probably be not damaged at all.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2015, 09:14:33 pm
content: Thanks for the link!See:https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.drive2.ru%2Fb%2F2615302&edit-text=&act=urlFor a translated-ish version.

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2015, 09:25:38 pm
content: Quote from: Scrts on December 24, 2015, 08:54:38 pmThat box would not have any information on the flight path anyway, and they knew it perfectly well, so there was no risk.CheersAlex

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2015, 11:32:09 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Nikitin on December 24, 2015, 09:25:38 pmI also wondered about that. Would a mid-90s airframe have a nav bloc that used GLONASS? And would its fix data be in a format the data recorder understood? From what I understand, VHF navigation systems might not be accurate enough to answer the question of airspace trespass.

author: Kalvin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2015, 02:45:46 pm
content: I would say that the mechanical designer had done excellent job as the enclosures were in good shape. Only the electrical designer had goofed. Nobody would have noticed unless the plane had not fallen...

author: reagle
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2015, 12:36:28 am
content: The going theory is that during the chaotic 90-s somebody made lots of money on these by using commercial grade parts and somehow bypassing military acceptance tests.No idea if true but sounds plausible

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2015, 01:34:02 am
content: So many self-proclaimed avionics experts in this thread that I almost threw up .

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2015, 08:51:47 am
content: Quote from: Bud on December 26, 2015, 01:34:02 amIs it difficult to be as or more expert than a Russian avionics expert?Are those guys of the video "avionics experts" ?