New Metcal CV-5210 - The iron tells you when the connection is good - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 10:00:44 am
content: http://www.okinternational.com/CV-5210-Connection-Validation-Soldering-Stationif it would have been a Kickstarter I would call it out as a scam, but it's the new Metcal puppy.We all now Metcal is not a garage company.To me they are trying to sell something better than the "SmartHeat", problem is there is nothing better than Metcal SmartHeat.BTW the newOLEDTFT color display touch screen looks funky. It seems if you want to sell a product in the 2018 you need to have a color display.Anyone tried it out? comments?

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 10:19:50 am
content: Quote from: zucca on July 23, 2018, 10:00:44 amYes, they are too small for that. Real garage companies are big, e.g. Apple and HP.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 10:20:20 am
content: There is also a SW:http://www.okinternational.com/metcal/english/globalnavigation/resources/software-downloadQuotewow, they are making a nice jump.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 10:23:52 am
content: Well I presume its not just not marketing hype but how can it tell that the connection is good, I can't see, maybe it just acts like a timer to keep the heat there long enough to have made a good connection?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 10:47:25 am
content: I think it also measures delivered power - it has a database of characteristics for each tip type.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 10:49:11 am
content: I would punt it might look at impedance as the tip has 14MHz or so quite close by and if both sides of the solder joint are well connected the impedance would decrease I guess.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 10:50:48 am
content: It's a soddering system!

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 12:01:24 pm
content: I would need some sort of evidence of how the system actually worked before I could believe that its not just some marketing ploy to get extra sales by "making" other systems seem obsolete and get the blind sheep flocking to the dealers to get the latest must have gadget

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 12:19:55 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 23, 2018, 10:47:25 amLet's think.. so a delivered energy counter?1) Take the iron out the stand, magnetic stand-by function triggers a counter reset.2) iron going to temperature --> counter should stay zero since power is delivered but it has nothing to do with soldering3) Iron touch metal or melt solder ---> counter going upNot sure when they turn the green LED on, if it is a simple counter reaching a threshold... how can they know I am touching a ground plane metal or I am melting solder? In both case the iron is dropping energy somewhere...The point 2) can be managed knowing the typical profile of each tip.Maybe they sense the drop in energy delivered when the joint reach the temperature tip --> I vote for this one.EDIT: I was wrong, it's the IMC formation.That said, who needs that? You can't desing an idiot proof iron.Oh I know, those quality eng. department will push to have a reproducible and documented hand soldering process... maybe it's smarter to save the money and invest in checking the final board?

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 12:26:12 pm
content: Are they trying to tell us that our eyes are no longer good enough to tell a good solder joint. And to think, it is only $799 on Mouser, not counting tip cost. If I am too blind to see the joint in the first place and then miss a bad joint upon inspection, maybe it is time to sell my soldering equipment.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 12:31:31 pm
content: No matter what the price is there will be enough take up for the exercise to be worthwhile as there will be people who have more money then sense.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 01:09:51 pm
content: LED green is triggered when the right amount of IMC is formed according to some black magic algorithm.Quote from: GreyWoolfe on July 23, 2018, 12:26:12 pmI think yes, they are telling us we can't see the IMC.BTW accoring to the video on the top, I don't like the amount of time the tip stays on the joint. Everybody told me to be as quick as possible with the iron on the board.I am personally starting to smellBS.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 01:19:40 pm
content: You can see it failing at 06m05s

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 01:26:22 pm
content: Lord have mercy I am a sinner, here the frame at 06m05s:GeorgeOfTheJunglethank you so muchEDIT: On a second thought, I think the equipment is working OK.The problem was/is and will be the idiot holding the iron, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. AMEN.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 02:27:38 pm
content: Too many varibles can effect the IMC, cleanliness, size of pad, ie ground plane etc. BS is in the air I think.

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 02:44:52 pm
content: The cynic in me thinks the real reason is the 'smarts' in the tip will make it incompatible with Thermaltronics tips. DRM for soldering irons?

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 02:54:34 pm
content: Quote from: radar_macgyver on July 23, 2018, 02:44:52 pmI don't think so, if the Thermaltronics tip works on the MX-5xxx system it work also on the CV-5210.The CV is backward compatible with the MX-5xxx.

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 04:04:37 pm
content: Remember guys... MetCal isn't selling to repair shops and EEs.They're selling to manufacturers who need to turn out product by the hundreds of thousands, soldered by assembly line muppets. Also, you have specialty markets like medical and military/defense contracting, where quality of solder joints is paramount and ZERO crib death/DOA is a REQUIREMENT; to the point where they have 100% test/inspection factor, and in some cases, part of the assembly process is x-raying of the solder joints to check for voids and improper wetting of parent/component metals. This would be another layer of validation specifically for the hand-soldered portions of that production.This is NOT a product for the average electronics hobbyist or repair tech.mnemmoo?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 04:10:07 pm
content: They put in a touchscreen, but kept a piezo speaker that bleats out the same sound as a smoke detector warning of a low battery? I’d go fucking berserk with that annoying high pitched beep all day long. They couldn’t have given it a pleasant sound???

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 06:45:48 pm
content: Quote from: mnementh on July 23, 2018, 04:04:37 pmFair enough, definitely and iron station not for us. I agree.Quote from: tooki on July 23, 2018, 04:10:07 pmOn top of that, they should have design a battery Metcal iron. Ops my next project.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 06:59:15 pm
content: Quote from: mnementh on July 23, 2018, 04:04:37 pmWhat happened to solder baths and flow soldering then?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 07:06:19 pm
content: Quote from: zucca on July 23, 2018, 06:45:48 pmNot a great idea as the RF PSU is rather inefficient. Just buy a TS100.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 08:34:49 pm
content: Quote from: zucca on July 23, 2018, 10:00:44 amMore personal opinion these days than fact, as other top tier manufacturers have at least caught up, if not surpassed it. Remember, it's 35 y/o tech these days.Curie point still has a strong place in manufacturing though as operators can't screw with temps and foul up the process control. Nothing to bypass or circumvent as could be done with stations that rely on lock-out for this purpose.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 08:52:21 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on July 23, 2018, 06:59:15 pmMaybe for PCBs, but a lot of the military/aerospace stuff is also things like connectors. (A lot is crimped, of course, but a lot is soldered.)

author: Jamieson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 09:19:02 pm
content: Quote from: radar_macgyver on July 23, 2018, 02:44:52 pmIf so, it wouldn't be the first time Metcal tried to discourage use of Thermaltronics cartridges. A few years ago the Metcal MX-500 firmware was updated to check if a Thermaltronics M series cart was installed in the handle. Apparently Thermaltronics carts heat up a few seconds faster than Metcal carts. If the Thermaltronics tip was detected the power unit would display an error message and shutdown. Thermaltronics described this issue and a workaround in their June 2014 newsletter.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 01:49:27 pm
content: Quote from: Jamieson on July 23, 2018, 09:19:02 pmWould I assume you meanMX-5000, not MX-500? I have an MX-500 and there is no firmware to update.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 02:13:57 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on July 24, 2018, 01:49:27 pmThey stupidly messed with the model numbers and now an MX-500 is a lower powered MX-5000http://uk.farnell.com/metcal/mx-500av/soldering-rework-system-40w-240vac/dp/2433356?st=mx-500

author: LeonR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2018, 03:26:45 am
content: Just googled the model... It's going for ~800USD. No-no for even the hardcore hobbyists

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2018, 04:41:53 am
content: Ummm... duh?It’s a feature specifically for improving quality/consistency in production soldering...

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2018, 04:44:57 am
content: That's rather steep, even for Metcal.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 10:18:56 pm
content: They are going for $450 now. I am thinking about getting some to replace my metcal SP1s. Has anybody had long term experience with this? We had varied results in demonstration today trying to solder brass components in less than 8 seconds (IPC standard). We are waiting to demo it further before making a judgment. I think it may come in handy in certain applications.

author: panic
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 10:17:48 pm
content: Hi! Does anyone know if MX series handpieces (e.g. MX-PTZ tweezers) would work with CV power supply?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 10:03:37 pm
content: Quote from: panic on August 17, 2022, 10:17:48 pmNo, according to SDGhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/new-metcal-station-_cv-5200-connection-validation-soldering-station_/msg3598068/#msg3598068Best for any non-production use to avoid the CV.

author: panic
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:59:35 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on August 18, 2022, 10:03:37 pmThat's unfortunate, it would be great to find some good deals for MX series pieces and be able to use with CV series power supply. Otherwise, I was planning occasional (like 1-2 per month) production runs of quite complex boards (99.9% TH soldering) that I wanted to sell – not sure if it's production use, but this CV system seemed to be right for my use case...

author: panic
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 03:07:29 pm
content: Is MX stand compatible with CV series iron at least?They look identical...

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 09:28:55 pm
content: Quote from: panic on August 20, 2022, 03:07:29 pmYeah read that thread, just use the CV iron RF and don't plug in the other connector.On some really old Metcal stations RF connector won't fit due to pin diameter, but you can get a male to female adapter for a few dollars that should fix it.

author: mairo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 06:47:13 am
content: I think JBC also has this on offer now, or at least seems similar.

author: panic
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 10:03:41 am
content: Quote from: mairo on August 24, 2022, 06:47:13 amThey have a system with similar functionality, but not the same:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/jbc-soldering-assistant-value-(jbc-cdeb-vs-jbc-cdb)/

author: panic
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 02:34:54 pm
content: Quote from: panic on August 20, 2022, 03:07:29 pmAnswering my own question: yes, MX stands are the only option. Metcal CV5210 kit is supplied with MX-W1AV stand

author: comka
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 12:18:36 am
content: hi guys,it would be nice to get the old tips working the new CV system. have any thoughts

author: Goldie
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 07:53:35 am
content: Just a heads up we recently bought a CV5210 and have found the hand piece to be quite fragile. In fact after just a couple of months use it seems to be broken, it still works but requires pushing the tip/bolt in then pulling it back a bit. Our first observation was that this iron was excellent although initially concerned it heated up too hot have not experienced any damage caused. However once we bought some more more tips we noticed that they didn't work (connection validation fail), we found that we had to push them in further which was more firm than we'd like.Roll on a couple of weeks and after several people using it one user obviously pushed too far and pushed the back end out of the hand piece. This might be classed as miss use but I was disappointed both with how much force was required to insert and also how easily this broke.It looks similar or the same as the ones depicted with the MX5210. Has anyone else experienced this failure?We have another Metcal MFR-1300/1351 (I think) which has not yet broken but takes different tips (shorter and fatter) so not compatible would also need an F-Type adapter to make the hand piece fit the CV5210.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 09:11:16 pm
content: The CV5210 handpiece is CV-H1-AV:https://store.metcal.com/en-us/shop/soldering-desoldering/hand-pieces/CV-H1-AVIts very different from the MX-H1-AV:https://store.metcal.com/en-us/shop/soldering-desoldering/hand-pieces/MX-H1-AVNot too surprising if the CV version is crap, the MX version is already nice and light so if they crammed a bunch of wires into it, its probably a strength compromise. I can push on the MX tip with 10-20lb and nothing moves.Try to return it if you can.Quote from: Goldie on August 13, 2024, 07:53:35 amIts a different frequency (450kHz) so won't work.