feedback with diodes? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: ranch varment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 12:01:42 pm
content: So, I need feedback in my system, or my problem is impossible.If I make another parallel route from the signal line, I cant guarantee which direction itll cycle, but I can use a diode, to force the output back into the input.Does this work - and is there any way to do it without a diode or transistor?

author: ranch varment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 12:43:02 pm
content: Im going to make you guys so angry again. heheI just thought again, and unless there was 2 feedback points connecting together. (so there were 2 ways to feedback to the same input) then i dont think i need to bother with a diode because it isnt powered on the feedback. (because its a different place from the power that instanciated it.) So if there were 2 to the same bit, if I wanted to have no diodes, id have to repeat the input, because otherwise im risking shocking backwards into the system, so then id need a diode on both.If it were only the only feedback position, then i wouldnt need a diode, because it actually hasnt got current there unless it gets here from the output.Im going to try and make transistorless and diodeless ram, using this idea.so im just not allowed to reuse a feedback input, and then it should work!

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 12:44:09 pm
content: You really need to go learnbasicelectronics if you want to have the slightest chance of being understood, because none of your posts makeanysense.

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 01:14:19 pm
content: On a serious note. No, just no.On a more joking note. Just use vacuum tubes or relays, or even something more exotic like acoustic delay lines, and voila you can make transistorless RAM.

author: ranch varment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 01:15:13 pm
content: You just dont understand my idea, because its hard to explain.Maybe it wont work, because without diodes maybe it just 100% conducts and it wouldnt work. But ill draw it up anyway! Because its my dream.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 01:30:14 pm
content: Yes, please draw a schematic. But this time, don't do it with your feet.

author: ranch varment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 04:51:29 pm
content: Ok I drew it up, and it didnt look like it was going to work.I think I need a switch ok, but - I want to control the whole computer from just one. That I want to tick all my ram loops over just on one transistor. Has this been done before?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 07:38:55 pm
content: Been smoking more dop ay?It's possible to make RAM with relays, capacitors and diodes. In fact you can make a whole computer like this.http://www.northdownfarm.co.uk/rory/tim/tim-8.htm

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 07:50:48 pm
content: Quote from: ranch varment on June 20, 2015, 12:43:02 pmNah. This thread, and especially some of the short responses (e.g. "feet"), are quite amusing. With luck we'll soon approach some of the comments that used to appear every September before 1993.Those too young to remember can seehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2015, 11:42:09 pm
content: Just implement a core memory and be done with it.

author: ranch varment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2015, 06:19:33 am
content: Thanks for showing me that video, and I think im bitten by the want to make it completely from scratch bug, too.Thats why I can seem annoying, I guess. I guess maybe I did think at first that I was thinking things that other people havent thought about, and im wrong about that.But, Just because people have worked out 100 different methods to multiply numbers, I dont see why it isnt useful and skillmaking to work out a way that someone else worked out, all by yourself. - Even though its reinventing the wheel, Its my opinion to think its important to.I want to finish up, with my from scratch machine, and I had to ask a million stupid questions before I could finally have it done finished, by my own hand.So far im stuck with a machine that can react to a sensor or controls, but it cant react to its previous state. Im sure I could get that working (the former), but im not sure how difficult its going to be, to be honest.

author: ranch varment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 07:09:16 am
content: I think im going to drill the instruction line straight into it, like that guy does, because it makes the whole thing simpler, and it pretty much handle anything even conditions as long as you turned off sets on a disabling condition, just runs through the lot the same speed every time, regardless of the forks.But I dont think making a general purpose computer is where you really win, its custom logic catered to the task 0 and 1 and burn out your finished transform in a single cycle!

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 08:10:20 am
content: Quote from: ranch varment on June 22, 2015, 07:09:16 amDon't get hung up on doing things in a single cycle.... That will make the whole design as slow as the most complex path through your logic.On a CPU a 64-bit division can take maybe a hundred cycles. It is possible to design it so it takes one cycle, but that would require a. lot more logic, and the CPU cycle time would need to be much, much longer (50x?) to allow the signals to propagate thorough the additinal logic. There is no point having a CPU where addition is 5000% slower just so division is 2x faster....Also, have a read of this:http://american.cs.ucdavis.edu/academic/readings/papers/CRAY-technology.pdfIt may be 'old tech' but It has lots of ideas about the engineering challenges involved to make a really fast computer out of a couple of different types of very simple parts. Power, cooling, electrical noise, cable lengths - and this was for about 80MHz, if I remember correctly!

author: tron9000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 08:19:13 am
content: Quote from: ranch varment on June 20, 2015, 12:01:42 pmwhat this should have read wasQuoteGoing straight into your problem without tell us what your try to do makes it pretty difficult to help you as most of us don't have crystal balls. just a little advice.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 08:25:23 am
content: Please take less drugs before posting....

author: ranch varment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 10:45:22 am
content: Its got to get the job done however many transistors it takes, so whats the point in pulling the cycle before the jobs done.I dont plan on making on making a multiplier, or a summer, or a binary shifter, or other general purpose tools, I actually have planned hardware optical flow (Comes down to a 3x3 1024 bit descriptor match as ive theorized it.) and if I dont get the "custom" job fully finished, whats the point in another cycle, why dont I finish on the exact transistor, and get the exact switch speed to the setter, then itll cycle itself.On the sample.All what you said just spoke to me as, that custom ttl doesnt do shit over just an ordinary cpu because of switch speed?!So that is a BIG KNOCKDOWN for me!

author: tron9000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 12:23:19 pm
content: Quote from: ranch varment on June 22, 2015, 10:45:22 amserious, and no offence, is English your first language? cos there looks like a communication barrier here.Sorry its just there's no flag on your profile.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 01:04:23 pm
content: VLSI silicon logic can run fast because the interconnects are very short so have low inductance and capacitance and low propagation delays. Anything you try to build that uses discrete components simply isn't going to be anywhere near as fast for anything more than one or two gates.Unless you have a budget for this comparable to NASA's, you'd do better to learn VHDL then get the absolute screaming fastest bleeding edge FPGA development board that you can afford/lay your hands on.

author: ranch varment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 03:08:24 pm
content: Oh I have a solution!what if you can do it switchless after the switch then than run it a picoseconds maximum switch speed running down a nanosecond wire getting noninteractive samples to us but to the robot its developing?And its brain dead simple, and noone intelligent gave a crap about it... but idiots cared alot.Lightspeed is no cap on samples collected... only interactivity.

author: tron9000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 03:42:24 pm
content: Quote from: ranch varment on June 22, 2015, 03:08:24 pmis that an insult? We are trying to help here.you still haven't shown or told us your setup yet. If your switching signals in order of picoseconds through a rats nest of wires or on a breadboard, your going to hit problems of the transmission line kind.

author: ranch varment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 03:59:31 pm
content: I want you to think about a wire conducting as the signal transmition line. or even more simply, just the switches in a serial stampede! (Making good use of your production space.)You send the switches in waves.look man you can send send video from one end to the planet to the other, and i think it takes longer than a wire to get there, but i think the signal is still 60hz.so well now i want you to use your imagination. And im sending the peak frequency of the switch down preorganized combination of not ands (or switches) converging to a result. And I can send this peak frequency all the way down the end and collect it at the end (and collect at PEAK frequency of the collection switch!) no matter how long it took to get there.And then your stuck scratching your head how it works.Dont worry man, you have to do it for machine learning, otherwise your motor wont evolve fast enough.If this wasnt done in factories since the 50's wed only have one cheesy ipad a week.Parallel takes up as much space as serial, and if you aint stampeding your serial your just wasting space.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 04:36:34 pm
content: Actually, signal propagation through wires is slower than light or radio waves in free space, typically only about 2/3 as fast. You are probably being confused by the extra time lag that relaying a signal via a geostationary satellite adds due to the vast distances involved (geostationary orbit being 35,780 Km above the Equator).You can certainly transmit information with a bit rate fast enough that more than one bit is in transit down the wire or over the radio link at any one time, the problem starts when you have to synchronise more than one such bitstream that has arrived via a different path so you can do something useful like combine the bitstreams using logic or arithmetic function.The reason why asynchronous sequential logic 'hairballs' are no longer used for serious computation is the difficulty of keeping multiple signal paths in step so that you perform the desired operation on the correct pair of bits that originated at the same time, not one with the bit before or after its pair.

author: ranch varment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 05:10:09 pm
content: Looks like we got another head scratcher.Well I guess you only get the input in the other side at the switch frequency, down to the on off frequency of one switch!, but when it hits the other side it just sets the state flop as it comes, it sorta just auto detects itself... so i dont think any signal is missing, but i dunno i havent actually done it myself, but beating a womans light speed is piece of cake.

author: tron9000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 09:08:27 pm
content: beat a womans light speed.....buh....wuh...WTF does that mean???

author: lewis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 09:10:51 pm
content: Are we all failing a Turing test?

author: Bob F.
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 09:25:40 pm
content: Quote from: lewis on June 22, 2015, 09:10:51 pmThanks for that - made the end of a rubbish Monday sooo much better than the rest of the day!

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 09:26:54 pm
content: No, but we'll get a contact high if we stick around too long...

author: tron9000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 09:27:41 pm
content: oh thank god its not just me! seriously I thought i was going mad reading some of the responses!

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 09:44:27 pm
content: It *is* enough to make me wonder if Mr. Varmit is the illegitimate child of Max Headroom and a Markov chatbot.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 09:52:46 pm
content: Quote from: lewis on June 22, 2015, 09:10:51 pmI'm afraid is not a computer.Obviously some kind of superior being because even Grace Hopper, can't be smarter or more knowledgeable than him.God forbid that if there is someone that might be able to even come close to his intellect happens to be a woman.So we are on the presence of greatness just like the solar roadway guy, the 1 minute battery charging guy, or the wifi charging girl and the many "you gotta think about the big picture, and outside of the box" and just because they can think it it's going to happen because determination gets things done even when people are against you and the rest are diluted and have no vision and of course they are the most unique individuals bar none.Seen many of these type of people over my career, they eventually land on their feet and turn out ok.

author: tron9000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 07:44:34 am
content: and the power over unity guy....don't forget him!

author: ranch varment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 09:11:59 pm
content: None of you guys have ever made or even designed! a hardware neural network before have you?I know. Because none of you like what im saying, and its actually what im talking about.And dont lie and say youve done something you havent, or even thought about something you havent thought about, I know im right.HERE-> (something none of you have ever thought about once in your life, and that stupid gracey idiot "stupid at the speed of light." woman has either.)While you little babies whine on about your little lcd screen not working properly, im busy theorizing how to advance technology as it is today, like a real man, instead of being a little hardware girl, who cant even put less transistors in place of some and gate ic, because you cant plumb for shit.

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 09:42:59 pm
content: Wow, I'll have to rush off and build that immediately. All I need is 9 balloons and 20 arrows by the look of your schematic.The big question is, once I build it, what does it do? Hopefully it doesn't initiate a big bang when it's built. A smaller question, where do the feedback diodes go?cheers,george.

author: ranch varment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 09:49:53 pm
content: I can clearly see im right. You have no idea what it is.Look man, I didnt even draw that diagram, its old knowledge, but you guys are a little ignorant indeed.

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 09:55:08 pm
content: Yep, I'm sure you are right, how could you not be?cheers,george.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 10:05:55 pm
content: This is comedy gold! I'm subscribing.

author: ranch varment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 10:26:57 pm
content: NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.An optional additional explanation is:

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 10:30:05 pm
content: Quote from: ranch varment on June 23, 2015, 10:26:57 pmThere's definitely a correlation between your vocabulary and how well you are presenting your case. Care to elucidate further on your thoughts?cheers,george.

author: ranch varment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 10:32:15 pm
content: "cheers" for being royal pains in the arse.How am I supposed to extend a case out when im sorrounded by idiots.overunity actually works, but even if you show your motor to morons they just dont believe their eyes.

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 10:37:38 pm
content: Quote from: ranch varment on June 23, 2015, 10:32:15 pmAnd finally we have evidence of a higher form of life. Thanks for confirming my original opinion.cheers,george.

author: ranch varment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 10:46:14 pm
content: NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.An optional additional explanation is:

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 10:48:35 pm
content: Shame my computer's audio was acting up and I couldn't listen to the sound on that epic rant...

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 11:08:33 pm
content: What kind of drugs are you on, dude?

author: ranch varment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 11:08:56 pm
content: NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.An optional additional explanation is:

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 11:13:29 pm
content: Oh yes, that hurt so good. Hurt my feelings again, and again, and again

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 11:31:02 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on June 23, 2015, 11:08:33 pmI suspect "off" might be more accurate.

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 11:46:20 pm
content: QuoteEtc.At first I thought you meant you are the guy behind the FastStone line of software, since I could see you're using that to capture the video. I was ready to be surprised. But no, you made a program to capture the webcam image and output it to the screen. Fair enough. But you're also showing that code. So I googled a random snippet from the comment and look what I found.https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ff625885(v=vs.85).aspxSo, your program appears to just be example code from MSDN. So much for "real fucking easy" and "everything you learnt you copied from someone else".

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 12:38:24 am
content: Neural nets based decision trees are so 90s.And your tessellation is pretty slow and pretty low res. Have you heard of multires? Also if you used wavelets you probably could get a higher framerate with more resolution and less processing and better registration.For example and this is not advanced by any means, this is a 3d reconstruction based only on remote GIS sensing that I developed for a company a while back.It's all derived from different data sources using a lot of parallel processing using GPU cores, making sure the data sets are fully registered.Not real time but it's doing a lot and it can find trees, houses, concrete, water and map it on DEM data. It can even tell you what kind of tree it is or what type of material a road is.And I'm not that great either, others have done far better than me. As for neural nets I actually have an SPIE paper published in 1992 and I was a voting member in the formation of comp.ai.neural-nets.natural-lang usenet channel way back in the early 90s. I probably forgot more things that you know.Your problem is that you are self taught, because that is pretty obvious, so you don't have a common language with the field, so you'll get a lot of blank stares because you are not equipped to describe what you are doing. Not because what you are doing is complicated, just your way to communicate is what is complicated.And I wouldn't pipe in at all and let you on your ego narcissistic crusade but you just happened to insulthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_HopperAs for the Kinect, meh, what's so difficult in projecting something once you have the z depth already and using someone else's software, because I'm pretty sure you are not computing the time of flight yourself. Now that would be impressive if you could actually get the timings right, but for that you might need to know the length of a nanosecond and a bunch of optics and physics.Look at Microsoft's HoloLens, now that is impressive. Although I do like CastAR but that requires the retro reflective surface. ZCam's tech (in the kinect because MS bought them) is cool and all but it doesn't work well in the sun.Maybe come up with something better like some spread spectrum based time of flight so you can use it outdoors regardless of other IR sources.And yeah, making an undocumented video signal format work is more challenging that what you are doing, because time has to be just right and it's not like you can just slap a bunch of random code together.Weeding out nonsense is not holding progress back, because doing the weeding out prevents others from wasting time and resources so we can have real progress.It's a perspective thing. And my perspective on your shirtless videos smoking and trying to be cool, actually corroborates what I mentioned on my previous post. Don't get me wrong I used to do the same on my 20s (other than posting on youtube) and weed made everything make sense and had a lot of stupid philosophical and pseudo science conversations with my peers, but then I grew upI still remember one about trying to convince others that at a quantum level a pencil could have consciousness.Edit: and by the way I did convince them, but I guess they just got tired to listen to my rambles instead.

author: tron9000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 11:39:21 am
content: I draw the line at insulting grace hopper at lest she can explain stuff better than you can...dude you look like you've slept less than I have and are on or off something.here's an idea, why not throw us an article about something you've read, least it'd get us on the same page, but instead you thought you were high and mighty (or just probably high) and your childish ego comes out.Your attitude stinks and if I we're you I'd just stop posting cos all your going to get is ridicule from here on.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 12:02:50 pm
content: Quote from: tron9000 on June 24, 2015, 11:39:21 amI could not have put it better myself. I think it's time we close this one.