How do people pack delicate instruments properly? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 10:50:54 am
content: This is inspired byhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/why-can_t-people-pack-items-properly!/msg847263/#msg847263. This thread could go in either the "for sale" or "repair" sections, but I've put it here since people might have a better personal experience of seeing packing done well.Let's start with a spectrum analyser or oscilloscope with a CRT, for example a familiar Tek 4x5 or something equivalent, because problems/solutions will be common to many types of equipment.It has controls and connectors protruding all over the fascia. How do you protectany/all of them from crushing forces, if the scope is dropped directly onto the fascia or due to the weight of a different package in the transit van. Ideally there would be a strong cage over the fascia which would transmit the force directly to the case (completely avoiding the controls) - but that isn't trivial since the controls are very near the edgethose at the corners from bending forces, if the scope is dropped on a cornerPossibilities:I doubt bubble-wrap would be sufficient in either case. Packing peanuts would be disastrous, since they might end up in a good or bad positionpresumably a custom collar/cage could be made from laser-cut wood, but is there an easier way?what about expanding foam? Presumably that is quite rigid once set, but that means if it bends then any external force will be directly transmitted to the controls.should the handle be placed against the case away from the fascia, or out in front of the fascia to protect the fascia at the expense of exposing the handle's hinges?CRTs are inherently vulnerable to shocks. How can shocks be minimised?energy-absorbingfoam such as Confor would certainly work - but that is excessively expensive.multiple layers of bubble wrap would help, provided it doesn't interfere with the fascia problems mention abovemultiple layers of cardboard could act as a crumple zone, but only oncepacking peanuts might be an infill between other parts which keep the peanuts in placewhich compositions of foam work and don't work?In the end there will probably be at least two layers involving foam, cardboard, packing peanuts and bubble wrap. But what should go in each layer?So, what are the generalprinciplesandtechniquesthat have been successfully used?

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 11:00:04 am
content: I bought a Tek 2440 from the states. It was packed in a big cardboard box with a pair of plastic bags full of pour in expanding foam. I was well impressed as the box had been beaten to death and the CRO (and foam) was pristine. A 2440 is not a light machine but this foam was perfectly moulded around all the delicate bits.The expanding foam was the perfect balance between firm and flexible. Not like any I've seen or used before.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 11:02:33 am
content: If you don't have an original box and foam, I think lots and lots of bubble wrap is the best protection.Use smaller bubbles at the beginning and switch to bigger bubbles to the outside.I never had a complaint, when shipping expensive instruments like this and always got great comments on packing.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 11:14:44 am
content: Bubble wrap or open cell soft foam padding of sensitive areas that cant take much pressure, then expanding foam into bin bags in a box to make a form-fitted two (or more) part 'nest' for it. You then put as much extra reinforcement and padding round the outside as you can afford, bearing in mind the likely delivery method. Hardboard and fiberglass reinforced packing tape are your friends! If you anticipate it being air-dropped out the back of a C130 Hercules, you obviously have to do a better job than if it is to be handled end-to-end by specialist fragile equipment movers.It *MAY* be necessary to disconnect and pad the CRT base board and protect the pins with a cardboard tube if its a large/heavy board and isn't otherwise supported, or for valve equipment, remove and pack the valves individually.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 11:51:19 am
content: Thanks for some quick and helpful replies.By "expanding foam", is theDIY filling/fixing polyurethane foam such ashttp://www.polycell.co.uk/product/polycell-expanding-foam-polyfilla/, oreasier to use but more expansivehttp://www.sealedairprotects.com/eu/en/products/foam_packaging/foam_protection_bag_works.aspxsuitable?If not, then is there an example of something better?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 12:17:02 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 27, 2016, 11:51:19 amThat is construction foam. You could use it in theory, but I'd like to watch the circus how it will happen in reality. Also it unlikely to be cheaper, there in not much volume in there.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 12:22:16 pm
content: Hah,I've just looked up that Instapak foam stuff on eBay, it's like 40p a bag!That's a no-brainer if I needed to ship anything that weighed a few kg to someone,in fact next time I buy something I'm going to suggest they use it and I'll cover the cost. I'm just so sick of functional retards on eBay sending me a box of bits all the time.edit: actually it looks like someone is just offloading a few, so I bought some, normally it's way too expensive.I'm going to pack up some of my unused equipment for storage.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 01:06:02 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 27, 2016, 12:17:02 pmJust so.The video is of "sealedairproducts" instapack; is that your suggestion? If so, when you used it or received it, were there any particular techniques you liked?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 02:11:02 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 27, 2016, 10:50:54 amThere's a neat technique I've seen using two elastic membranes that works well for lighter items up to a few Kg. I haven't any old packaging that uses this technique to photograph so I'll just have to try and describe it.Imagine the outer cardboard box. Now imagine two more cardboard boxes that just fit inside the outer box, each box is half the height of the outer so that they meet at a surface that forms halfway through the outer box. There's a circular or oval hole cut in the inner boxes where this interior surface is and two pieces of elastic polyurethane sheet are stretched across that hole, each one firmly attached to its respective box. The item to be transported is held in place between the two stretched membranes so that they form a suspending elastic cradle around it.In practice this doesn't use two boxes, but a sheet of cardboard that is folded so as to make a cradle with most of the surfaces of those boxes but without the very top and very bottom surfaces and that is hinged on one of the long edges of the interior surface. Make the membranes strong enough and elastic enough and there would really be no limit on how big or heavy an item you could pack like this. An added advantage is that the whole contraption is very light and the outer edges of the cradle strengthen the outer box too.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 02:31:39 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on June 27, 2016, 02:11:02 pmYes, I've recently seen that technique when browsing for packaging. As you imply, it isn't really applicable to a 20kg instrument!If I was being truly picky I'd question whether it is good w.r.t. shocks in all three axes. No problems with the axis perpendicular to the membrane, but not so good for the two axes in the plane of the membrane. Perhaps in extreme cases a nested "gimbal" mount would be necessary - but if that's the case (ho ho), then maybe springs would be better.

author: TopLoser
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 02:53:07 pm
content: I use duvets whenever I ship large heavy things without original packaging. Tesco or Morrisons have nice thick double or kingsize ones on sale for £8 every now and then, worth it for expensive equipment. Plus they can be used at the other end.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 03:46:02 pm
content: Hi density foam rubber foam salvaged from discarded sofas works great, and it's free!Jay

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 05:26:16 pm
content: I think the key is a combination of shock absorption and immobilization. You want something that 'gives' a bit to reduce the acceleration spikes as the package is bounced about, but at the same time you want to keep it cradled firmly so that it doesn't wind up bouncing aroundinsidethe package.I haven't taken any pictures (will try to remember to on my next go-round), but when I ship the typically heavy HP stuff I get on my trips to CA back home, I generally use plastic film and foil backed Styrofoam insulation sheets cut to line the box and immobilize the equipment. I get it in 4' x 8' sheets, in 1" and 2" thicknesses at Home Deport. It's not cheap, but then again neither is what I'm shipping (to me, at least). The plastic film/metallized plastic foil backing helps a great deal to keep the Styrofoam from shedding little bits everywhere; the only places the raw foam is exposed is along the cut edges. One box packed this way contained an 8565A spec an, a 3490A DMM and I forget what else I stuffed in there and weighed in at over 100 lbs; it arrived unscathed.I try to come up with a box that's at least 4" larger on all inside dimensions (to allow 2" minimum clearance between the instrument and the box on all sides) and start by lining it with 2" thick foam cut to fit to within an eighth of an inch of the inside of the box; usually doing the sides first with pieces cut to fit the inside height of the box, then cutting bottom & top pieces to fit snugly within these walls. The foam box-within-the-box seems to greatly strengthen the outer cardboard box and reduce the likelihood of it being crushed enroute.If an instrument has feet and they're removable, I take them off and pack them separately - this lets the broad surface of the cabinet bottom sit on the foam thereby spreading the load out over a large area rather than concentrating it at the feet, which would then poke into the Styrofoam. The instrument is put into its foam cocoon and wedged in place as needed with smaller pieces of Styrofoam, ethafoam or sponge foam, depending on what's handy at the time. Folded bubble wrap may also occasionally be used as a gap filler, and lighter things (less than perhaps 20 lbs or so) may also be wrapped in it before going into the foam. Styrofoam strips are inserted as needed between the instrument's front panel and the inner wall of the foam 'box'; I cut them to size and position them to bridge the gap between the panel and the wall and fitbetweenbuttons, knobs or display faces - the relatively delicate things are kept free in a small air space, but the strips keep the panel separated from the wall.I cut the larger pieces with a razor knife and drywall square or other metal straightedge, and sometimes zing through smaller pieces on the band saw when able as it's quick and sort of heat seals the cut edge a bit too.It takes a good bit of effort and on the fly planning as things are boxed up, but so far I've had good success getting things across the country after packing them like this. I'll try to remember to take some photos next time.-Pat

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 05:59:51 pm
content: Thanks for your detailed thoughts.Quote from: Cubdriver on June 27, 2016, 05:26:16 pmAgreed. I mentioned Confor since it halves the transmitted energy because it doesn't bounce back. For that reason it is used in ejection sets and glider seat cushions.QuoteUseful. The benefits of the film/foil are a good idea.QuoteSo the cross section from the outside is cardboard, foam, styrofoam, instrument.QuoteI'd wondered about styrofoam-between-buttons, but on some instruments with many protruding controls I'm concerned there wouldn't be much there!QuoteAs a kid I remember cutting the newfangled styrofoam with a hot knife (couldn't afford a hot wire!).

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 07:05:35 pm
content: I've seen lots of equipment packed with pieces of expanded polyethlene foam (I think that's what it is) molded to fit around the corners or edges of the unit. The foam is tough but still spongy. It won't break like styrofoam and is strong enough to absorb multiple impacts and still provide protection. I've also seen it in sheets.Ed

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 07:07:34 pm
content: Anything with a CRT worries me because even if the exterior is well-protected, the neck is potentially quite vulnerable. Variacs may be similarly vulnerable depending on how they're assembled. One that I purchased was mounted inside a metal box enclosure with a nice analog panel meter. I asked the seller to open it and stuff around the toroid. When it arrived, I found old rags stuffed inside. Nothing bent.Below is some general info on how I pack stuff for shipping when I don't have an original shipping container and/or inserts for it.Inspecting the item thoroughly is critical to know what you're up against, especially for bits that stick out.The primary inner layer of protection is lots of bubble wrap. If there are knobs to protect such as on a front panel, I'll cut the bubble wrap wider than needed and bundle it up for several inches of extra protection. Even if it gets a direct strike, the force will be distributed around the controls. If there is a significant amount of disparity in spacing and knob/post heights, I may apply separate bubble wrap in between to even things out before closing the main layers of bubble wrap over it.The outer layer is the box, which is selected to allow enough space for the item, all its bubble wrap, and the intermediate protection layer. The amount of space allowance is larger for heavier or more delicate items.The intermediate layer depends on the weight of the item. If it's not too heavy, I'll fill the space with air pillows. Amazon uses these, except they usually don't use them properly. Amazon will place the item directly on the bottom of the box and throw some pillows on top just to say they did something.When I use them, the result is that the item is suspended on all six sides and immobilized.For heavier items, I use packing bits. They come in all kinds of shapes (peanuts, cylinders, balls, etc.) and sizes. The important things are not to skimp on them and to settle the material as the item is being packed. Just throwing it in and closing the box because it looks full is about as useful as whipped cream.Before finalizing the box with tape, I tack the box top closed with a few short pieces of tape and shake it in various orientations to listen and feel for any movement. It should feel like a solid block. There should be no indication that any object is inside. If necessary, add more stuffing.When I head out to the shipper the next day, I'll shake the package again, just in case.The biggest/heaviest item I've shipped was an HP 8591E spectrum analyzer (CRT display) without the protective front cover and the rear posts/feet attached. What a beast that was. It went cross-country unscathed.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 07:16:20 pm
content: Quote from: edpalmer42 on June 27, 2016, 07:05:35 pmIt might be ethafoamhttps://www.efoam.co.uk/ethafoam-packaging-foam.phpor conceivablyhttps://www.efoam.co.uk/zotefoam-plastazote.phpA question is whether it is possible for an amateur to mould it around the corners or, if not, how to deal with them, e.g. cutting with a knife or gluing multiple layers together

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 07:28:08 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on June 27, 2016, 07:07:34 pmYes indeed! Fortunately Tek 4x5 scopes aren't too bad in that respect. They were designed to fit under the aircraft seats. I even took one on two flights to a war zone (Belfast) as hold baggage, with zero wrapping. Perhaps people were more careful then, perhaps it was the "unwrapped glass aquarium" effect.QuoteI would definitely want to have good support between/around the controls. They are a notorious problem area.QuoteJust so. In order to keep them in place and/or evenly distributed, I'm wondering if it is sensible to have a "skeleton" made from foam, and to have peanuts between the skeleton.QuoteYes indeed

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 07:34:46 pm
content: My experience with insta-pack type foams has been mixed. For things that are not terribly heavy and/or that have a large surface area to distribute the loads, it's fine, but heavy/dense things will crush it and get loose.A company I previously worked for sold and distributed RF generators that were made in Germany. They were fairly heavy (usually 30 or more pounds, IIRC), and were in rack mount enclosures, a few inches longer than they were wide. The most popular ones were 2 RU tall (about 3-1/2"). Initially, they were shipped in double wall boxes with foam rubber corner blocks (picture a cube with a smaller cube cut out of one corner); one was placed in each corner of the shipping carton with the cutouts facing in; the unit was then placed in with its corners sitting in the cutouts and four more corner blocks placed on its the top corners. When the box was closed up, the chassis was then suspended in the center, with the corners held in place by the blocks. Generators shipped this way arrived in fine condition.Then at some point they got a foam-in-place packing system. Line the box, squirt in foam, cover it with the plastic membrane, put the generator in, cover it with membrane, foam the top, cover that and shut the box. Generator mummified in nice soft foam, cradled on every surface. Sounds great, right? Not so much. I got really good at doing body & fender work, and straightening bent rack mounting ears.The generators were held wonderfully in the vertical direction, where their 30+ lb weight was distributed over several square feet of area, but the sides/corners were another matter entirely. The joint between the foam sections, where the foaming would be incomplete and leave at least small gaps lay right on the narrowest dimension of the enclosure - the height. As the boxes were bounced around in shipment, the large forces concentrated on the sides combined with the sharp edges of the rack mounting ears would begin to crush the expanded foam surrounding the edges of the generators, permitting them to slide a bit in the horizontal direction. Once they began sliding, they would build up inertia and hit the foam harder, pulverizing it and permitting even more movement. Before long, the ears were hitting the inside of the box and getting bent. I would guess that 3 out of 5 had some damage, with some being buggered to the point that they needed new front panel sheet metal (the rack ears were extensions of the panel itself).The problem could easily have been alleviated with some 'L' shaped ethafoam blocks in the corners to resist the greater force on horizontal plane further compromised by the seam where the top and bottom foam halves met, but alas they never did it.TL, DR - foam in place is a great packing material in many cases, but not well suited to small, dense objects. They will crush the foam, get loose and hurt themselves or others.-Pat

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 08:12:11 pm
content: The original packaging from the manufacturer is always the reference for this kind of job.The Tektronix 465/475/485, for instance, came with front covers that contain a custom polystyrene foam insert to protect the switches. This has nearly always been separated from the instrument over the years.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 08:16:51 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 27, 2016, 05:59:51 pmMy pleasure. I also have direct experience with this method as I'm shipping things to myself.QuoteUnfortunately all I can attribute that to is a happy accident - it's the only type of foam the HD near the California office sells in big sheets, so it's basically Hobson's choice.QuoteClose - it's the cardboard box, 2" styrofoam lining, then the instrument with any additional padding I might need or decide to add - may be nothing more, might be small pieces of the insulation foam cut to fit, bubble wrap, etc. It depends on the instrument and how tightly it fits in the space.QuoteThat can sometimes be challenging, but luckily for me in most cases so far it's been more supplemental, used with HP instruments that have the built in rack handles extending forward. The faces of the handles are butted up against the Styrofoam wall providing the main opposition to movement in that direction, and I add some bits and pieces of foam were possible to provide additional bearing surface and spread the forces out more.QuoteI've never really tried a hot knife or wire. I don't know how well it would work on this kind of foam due to the plastic membrane covering the faces.I'll take some photos of the next one I do. There's still about 200# of stuff out there to come home (the 2401C voltmeter, 2410B ac/ohms converter, a 5360A computing counter and a 2402A DMM off the top of my head...) Those should be great fun to package up as they're in the neighborhood of 50 lbs each. Fun, fun!!-Pat

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 08:21:47 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 27, 2016, 07:28:08 pmCompartmentalizing is also helpful if the box is compromised. The extent to which one goes to package an item depends on many factors such as value, insurance coverage, scarcity, carrier reputation, distance, and destination location, etc.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 08:25:27 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on June 27, 2016, 02:11:02 pmI've seen that suspension system several times including for shipping a laptop back to the factory for warranty repair. It's pretty neat, but seems a bit unnerving. If the membrane failed, the device would be mostly free inside the box (much like Amazon's default packaging method).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 09:41:31 pm
content: Quote from: Cubdriver on June 27, 2016, 07:34:46 pmThat makes a great deal of sense. Thanks.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 09:44:21 pm
content: Quote from: helius on June 27, 2016, 08:12:11 pmVery true, especially w.r.t. the front covers. They can be bought on ebay for ~£35 (and rising).Some Tek manuals give hints and diagrams for packing, but the details are missing - and techniques may have improved in half a century.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 11:41:36 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on June 27, 2016, 08:25:27 pmI thought it unnerving on my first encounter with it. So much so that I had a good hard tug and tear at it all. I couldn't apply enough force to tear the film or dislodge it from its carrier. Eventually the cardboard box itself gave way. I'd be pretty confident that if the outside box was strong enough for the mass of the packed item the membrane would be stronger.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 11:49:10 pm
content: Bubble wrap/film is a great packing product, but it seems that few know how to use it correctly. When used loose it's pretty shit and that leads to a lot of items breaking.The correct way is to use multiple tightly taped layers, like an onion skin. The bubbles face inwards, and the wrap axis of each layer is different so all 6 faces receive equal protection. Some of the best packaging on items I've received was done this way. The one way that bubble wrap is kind of weak is in preventing punctures/intrusion into the package, so it's complemented by heavy "eggcrate" foam sheets around the edges of the box, and by floating an inner box inside the outer one. You can also use peanuts to fill in any extra space, or use them between multiple bubble-wrapped units. When used by themselves they have a lot of drawbacks.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 11:53:55 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 27, 2016, 07:16:20 pmEthafoam and Plastazote are just trade names for particular brands of polyethylene closed cell foam.I've used it for quite a few things over the years. It's tough as old boots, waterproof, and quite a good thermal insulator. If you buy it in 1 inch sheets it's easy to cut with a Stanley knife and can be laminated up with a hot melt glue gun but there are specialist water based adhesives if you want to do a deluxe job. I made a cold box out of some, custom fitted to my MG's rather awkward boot, for ferrying stuff home from the supermarket. With a stitched nylon fabric outer cover and a hardboard base plate it's as good as new about 100 shopping trips later. Bum sized offcuts make very comfy mats to sit on hard surfaces with and, according to the cat, a very comfy bed too.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 01:41:51 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on June 27, 2016, 11:41:36 pmYes, all the ones I've seen were quite robust. Just be sure you're getting a good one. Of course, the way the sheeting is attached to the cardboard matters too.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 01:46:31 am
content: Quote from: helius on June 27, 2016, 11:49:10 pmThanks for summarizing this. It is indeed the right way to use the stuff. In addition, you have to be sure to tape the bubble wrap so that it stays snugly wrapped around its contents.All the equipment I've received from bona fide used test gear vendors has always been wrapped like this or completely encased in the insta-foam stuff.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 02:12:23 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on June 27, 2016, 08:25:27 pmWhat, are you suggesting that two deflated six inch square plastic pillows in a 4 cubic foot box is not adequate packaging for, ohhh, say a pristine Tektronix 465B?Ain't that the truth! Sadly, it seems many ebayers look to the likes of Amazon as a source for packaging inspiration.-Pat

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 02:22:07 am
content: Ha! The best was when Amazon shipped potato chips (crisps) and crackers (biscuits) in the same package with a six-pack box of soy milk using their usual sad packing process.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 03:11:55 am
content: So they arrived pre-chewed. They were doing you a favor. Much more efficient and time saving when you don't need to chew them yourself. It was accomplished during what otherwise would have been wasted time during transport...-Pat

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 04:05:30 am
content: It's a feature!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 08:17:23 am
content: We've all seen bone-headed packaging, both over packaged and under packaged.This thread is a really useful discussion of how to do itproperly-and why.Thanks for all such suggestions and observations.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 06:28:00 pm
content: Thanks for starting the thread, tggzzz. Good stuff.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 07:28:52 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on June 28, 2016, 06:28:00 pmMy pleasure. I'm in debt to everybody that has contributed.When the time comes, I may try to repay the debt by documenting what I do - and the consequences.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 08:43:58 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 28, 2016, 07:28:52 pmIt'll be the Mythbusters of Shipping & Handling.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 12:41:56 am
content: The ideal method is Aluminium or Wooden Roadcases specially tailored for the instruments.Back in the day,we used to ship whole test setups for TV & Radio sites around the State with minimal problems.Of course,idiot proof packing underestimates the ingenuity of idiots.On two occasions,Polyskops had heavy internal parts come loose & break more fragile bits.We discovered that the transport company was ignoring the warnings on the Roadcase:-"This unit weighs more than 60kg--obtain assistance to lift!"One personcouldlift the case,but when they put it down,they dropped it the last couple of inches.This was enough to do the damage.Then there was the US company that shipped us two Broadcast Transmitters fully assembled:-One actually made it OK,in the other,the Modulation Transformer came loose & wreaked havoc inside.Moral---If your equipment has very large heavy bits inside that can be readily removed,do so,& pack them separately!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 12:50:23 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on June 29, 2016, 12:41:56 amThey sound less than idealMore importantly, they are yet another illustration why the details are critical. Hence my request for detailed suggestions, and the pleasing number of detailed responses.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 01:21:09 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 29, 2016, 12:50:23 amNoimpactdamage was transferred through the case,but there were large,insufficiently secured,bits inside the instrument,which were dislodged by the "G" forces involved.Polyskops areverybig & occupied most of the real estate in the Roadcase,being surrounded by quite firm padding.To make the padding deep enough to absorb a "jolt" of that nature, as was done with smaller instruments,would have yielded a Roadcase of quite unreasonable dimensions.The thickness & firmness of the padding was based on what R & S would have us believe,which is that Polyskops could be transported "as is".Prior to making the Roadcases,thiswasdone from time to time,but it would seem that their internal construction wasn't quite up to rough handling.None of the other test equipment was damaged over years of transportation in Roadcases.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 02:08:48 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on June 29, 2016, 01:21:09 amExactly. As with my variac example, equipment that wasn't designed for mobile use can suffer greatly from G forces alone.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 02:51:28 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on June 29, 2016, 02:08:48 amDave's violent and unreasonable assaults on various multimeters are quite instructive in this regard. Even quite light components - in this case surface mount inductors - can become the weak point if enough G force is involved.Perhaps we could test various packing techniques by sending several identical instruments to Dave, packaged different ways and he could take thepackagesout on a road trip 'a la multimetre' only this time the rule would be "Don't turn it on, don't even open it - throw the bugger off an overpass!".

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 03:35:45 pm
content: Let us learn from other people's experience and mistakes. There is a wealth of solid experience out there.While it is fun to do experiments, there's nothing to be gained by confirming things thatdon'twork. While we are unlikely to advance the art of packing, at least let's makenewmistakes!

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 04:49:59 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 29, 2016, 03:35:45 pmErr, that wasn't aserioussuggestion, just as Dave's multimeter hurling isn't really serious product reliability testing.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 07:51:57 pm
content: I have sent glass lamps via post, including heavy steel and copper ballasts, and packing in multiple layers of bubble wrap, taped up around the object, and with more filling up empty space in the box, worked the best to prevent damage. I have even posted hard drives, though I did use a plastic case with a foam inner liner to hold each drive, and made sure that the outer was well padded, so the drives arrived intact. Modern drives will not survive in transit, but the old ST 225 drives survived with no problems.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 08:32:37 pm
content: One thing I haven't seen mentioned is silica gel.The boat anchor scope I ordered came with large corners he cut to size from foam to make it fit snug in the heavy duty cardboard box supported at the 4 corners and some extra foam inserts he cut to keep modules securely in place, then filled up the rest with foam peanuts and used what looked like an entire roll of packing tape to strengthen the box. Far more effort than I expected and got it mechanically sound from the US to me.It took ages for it to dry out and function though ... so a plastic bag around the scope and a handful of gel packets would have been nice.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 08:50:11 pm
content: Any idea of the cause of the "dampness"?

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 08:59:22 pm
content: Silica gel is recommended for items that are especially susceptible to moisture, like camera lenses or film. I haven't seen it used for electronics, and I'm also curious how that moisture could have appeared: was the scope delivered by sea? Was it shipped across the Equator?The most common cause of condensation is moving a parcel from a very warm to a very cold environment, or vice versa.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 09:51:25 pm
content: So much moisture does sound odd. Was it being shipped from a warm, high-humidity climate?I've seen really large humidity control packs that can be rejuvenated in an oven. I'm not sure if they would've been enough for what sounds like really excessive moisture.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 09:56:04 pm
content: Quote from: helius on June 29, 2016, 08:59:22 pmDon't forget that anything that goes by air freight has a fair chance of being in an unpressurised, cold cargo hold. It's worth remembering both of those parameters if they might affect something you're shipping via air.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2016, 09:26:55 am
content: In order to provide some protection to front-panel controls during shipping, I'm considering making a wooden laser-cut cover out of 5mm laser birch plywood. For some instruments the box could also protect the controls during maintenance.Has anyone any experience of that, and would it be useful in this case and/or for other people?The kind of thing I have in mind is a conventional5-sided notched box similar tohttp://www.thingiverse.com/thing:255013That would slip round the edge of a front panel. Extra pieces or wood would form an internal shelf/lip to stop it sliding too far. The cross section would be something like this:* ** *W* *WW**************WWW C C C WWW C C WW WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWwhere W is the wooden box, * is the instrument's metal frame and C are front panel controls.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2016, 04:40:36 pm
content: That should work fine, tggzzz. For the stop, if you're not expecting it to incur too much frontal impact, you could attach cleats to the inside of the cover. Otherwise, make the long sides of the cover slightly shorter, use thicker wood for the two short sides, and rabbit the edges of the short sides so that the face of the instrument fits against it, thusly:| || |W| |WW+------------+WWW C C C WWWW C C WWWW WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2016, 05:44:55 pm
content: I'd thought of routing/rabbiting the sides as you suggest, but I can't do that on a laser cutter.I do have a suitable router, but I'd still have to fix the 5 pieces of wood together, strongly.The laser cutter castellated joints are trivial to make, and fixing the side fillets could be made simple and quick.So it is pretty evenly balanced.Any "frontal impact" will be determined by any "union lifts", so I wouldn't want to trust cleats!Thanks for your thoughts.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2016, 04:12:31 am
content: Yeah, not as many options with laser-only. Are you going to make some? If so, be sure to post some pics.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2016, 04:22:44 am
content: Off the cuff it sounds like a good idea. But... My concern would be that the wood bearing on the periphery of the faceplate would abrade and damage the finish due to the pressure and vibration during shipment.How difficult is it to program the laser cutter you're talking about, and could it cut foam sheets like ethafoam? If not difficult to program and able to cut the foam, I'd say the best bet would be to make a foam faceplate with clearance holes for all the controls. This would spread any pressure out over a much larger area and still protect the controls.-Pat

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2016, 07:50:01 am
content: Quote from: Cubdriver on July 10, 2016, 04:22:44 amUseful points, and a thin layer of foam might be sensible. That might also be useful by creating a gentle interference fit, so that the cover stays where you want it. Mind you most of the scope covers fall off since they have a clip missing!OTOH, the laser birch isn't a hard material, and the scopes I'm thinking of have an uncoloured aluminium rim in the relevant position, so abrasion probably isn't a significant problem.Programming a cutter is trivial; I use OpenSCAD and variants, but there are many alternatives. Unfortunately the real problem is that materials are limited because cutters produce combustion products which can gum up the lens or be hazardous. One plastic, for example, produces HCl; others are more subtly dangerous. Hence I wouldn't be able to laser cut the foam.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2016, 09:13:53 pm
content: I would use felt- or foam-backed tape on the lid along the region between it and the instrument. Thin foam wrap/bags often used for chinaware and other fragile goods could also work to provide abrasion protection.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 04:33:15 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 09, 2016, 05:44:55 pmI don't think it's the "union lifts" you need to worry about---union rules probably specify two people.It's the solitary "macho man" who overestimates his capacity & drops the box the last few inches,or sometimes, all the way.

author: jh15
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 04:45:04 am
content: Why not just some kind of honeycomb cardboard. The knobs could displace partitions. As I type was thinking of egg carton fibrus stuff.Or, Tek stuff I received in the 80's like the tek 503 series scope I called a Poodle Pack. Little scope was secured in cardboard shell with 6 squares of foam glued to outside.I almost want to say disregard this letter as I am at a loss to describe further.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 05:19:00 am
content: Insurance. Have had reasonably packed stuff subject to unreasonable level of damage.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 07:15:37 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on July 11, 2016, 05:19:00 amWhich shipper will insure the glass in the CRT?

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2016, 04:23:10 am
content: Well, here's one wayNOTto do it!!I recently won this on the 'bay, it's a fairly rare (as in I've found NOTHING about it online thus far) early digital voltmeter. It was sold as non-working for restoration, and I knew from the photos in the listing that it was in somewhat less than pristine condition. It appeared on my doorstep today, and I was shocked. It was literally wrapped in hot-melt glued cardboard with a few (ok, five) mickey-moused cardboard spacers between the chassis and the side walls. The bottom was on the bottom of the carton. The top was the few layers of cardboard folded to form the carton and glued up.Thankfully the thing is built like a tank, and doesn't appear to have suffered fatal damage during its journey. Octal based AC choppers (one on each side) had gotten loose from their sockets and were bouncing around a bit, and two of the stepper relays are loose as well (though they appear to have been already free of their mounts based on the auction photos); they seem to have done a fine job of reducing the hardened foam in their compartment to dust that's spread everywhere.I have to say that I'm doubly shocked - once at how poorly it was packed, and again at how well overall it survived being shipped that way.Custom made for exact fit!Well padded:Energy absorbing spacers to prevent contact with carton sides:Model 3 Lab Cat is not pleased with the packaging:This one's going to be quite a challenge to resurrect. I plan to do more cleaning and get additional photos of the instrument up in a separate thread later.Other photos here:https://pmanning.smugmug.com/Electronics/Electro-Instruments-NLS-edge-Pat

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2016, 06:15:26 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 11, 2016, 07:15:37 amI think most will...but when you send, have them package it for you..."inadequate" packaging is probably the number one reason for insurance denial. If buying from someone else, do it on a good credit card (good credit cards have secondary insurance/warranty as a fall back).

author: dohyun
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2016, 01:48:58 pm
content: One way of packing I've seen used more lately (for when there is no existing box-it-came-in and for custom devices) is putting large bags around the device and spray-foaming into the bag (the kind which hardens into a somewhat flexible yet solid state) and pretty much custom molding padding around the entire device.My guess is the spray foam stuff would be reasonable inexpensive as would the bags.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2016, 05:36:46 am
content: Quote from: dohyun on July 17, 2016, 01:48:58 pmYou can get bags pre-filled with two mixable components, e.g.http://www.packsend.co.uk/packing-solutions/foam-in-place/I wouldn't call them cheap, but clearly that a relative!The precise type of foam and the amount sprayed in would be important. If you spray in too much it would be too dense and transmit shocks too easily.Some cheap foams, notably the urethane used for DIY jobs around the house, is very sticky and messy, and could easily escape into the wrong place. It also tends to be rather inflexible and/or crush once. Once crushed, anything inside would rattle around which is generally thought to be A Bad Thing.As with many things, the details matter and once you have experience you can get the details right. I don't have experience so I have to rely on bulletproof belt-and-braces techniques

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2016, 05:50:38 am
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on July 17, 2016, 06:15:26 amI've heard otherwise about shippers/glass, but I haven't confirmed it myself.The trouble with "inadequate packaging" is that it is an easy claim for the shippers to make and very difficult to counter, especially if they don't specify what is "adequate"! As you imply, they couldn't use the excuse if they packaged it themselves.As for packing glass, I believe it would be relatively easy to protect individual pieces of glass, especially when they are directly encased in foam-in-place style expanding foam which would tend to distribute shocks across the entire surface. I'm less sure about what would happen to a piece of glass like a CRT that is held inside a metal frame, since shocks would be concentrated at the fixings.I've never had to make an insurance claim on a credit card, so I've no idea how hard they would wriggle. OTOH I have had insurance companies wriggle in other cases, fortunately unsuccessfully!

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2016, 06:11:50 am
content: I used to have to send PC towers to remote sites.I quickly learnt that sending it in the box it came in, wasn't good enough!I used to put it in it's original box, wrap that in about half a dozen layers of bubble wrap, and then box all that up in a heavy duty corrugated box.Which a forklift tine went through like a hot knife through butter....

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2016, 08:20:45 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 18, 2016, 05:50:38 amYep "inadequate" packaging is easy way out for them... except when they package itGlassware/art stuff they typically wont insure, part of equipment I think they will.I've never actually tried doing insurance thru my credit card, just know it's there from reading the card terms,soundedlike good coverage...has claims up to 10k...not only insurance, they will alsowarrantyitems for 1-2 years. I think they want you to file with whoever else you can first though, so more like secondary/fallback insurance.The expanded foam in a bag packing... is awesome, outside of a deep puncture...the stuff i've had sent to me was super secure (both padding and immobilization)

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2016, 12:27:38 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on July 18, 2016, 08:20:45 amFrom experience: Art glass and other art (e.g. original artwork) requires either a double box with foam in between the layers; or a wooden create. Wooden crates would typically have art friendly paper (or cloth), corner plastic molds, and cardboard to immobilize the artwork. Glass art has to be firmly supported. When properly cased, they can be insured using standard shippers. Expensive packing though.Above a certain size (and value) only freight shipping is possible. As an example, top end espresso machines are delicate and can only be shipped freight anchored to a palate. The reason being that (Unlike most TME) once dropped the chassis will deform (mainly due to components like a heavy motor and pump, boilers and heaters).

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 09:52:53 pm
content: I recently returned from a trip to California, and while out there managed to pack up and ship some of my goodies (4 instruments totaling about 200 lbs) home. This time, I took photos while packing, and more of the unboxing. Some will be posted here, but since there are 73 images total of the two packages here is the link to the gallery with the captioned images in it:https://pmanning.smugmug.com/Electronics/Packing-heavy-instruments-forThe cabinets were two different sizes, with two instruments in each size, so each box held two nearly identically sized devices. This made packing much easier. Each of the units weighed somewhere between about 40 and 55 lbs, so none of them was particularly lightweight.The boxes used were purchased at the local FedEx shipping center and were 24 x 24 x 24" double-walled cubes. They cost about $12/each. The foam used was intended for household insulation purposes, and came from the local Home Depot (a big-box building supply store for those not in the US). The sheets are supplied in 4 x 8 foot panels, and I get 1 and 2" thick ones for shipping things. They have a clear plastic overlay on one side and an aluminized plastic overlay on the other, with Styrofoam sandwiched in between. (I mentioned them earlier in this thread.) The 1" thick ones are around $11 a pop, and the 2" ones about double that.The packing procedure I've settled on is to get a box that is ideally 4" larger inside than what I'm shipping, and basically construct a styrofoam box inside the main shipping carton. Multiple instruments are piled one atop the other with a 1" Styrofoam divider sheet between them, and smaller blocks are placed as needed to fill gaps between front panels and carton walls, with efforts mate to keep knobs, buttons and display windows/screens in free air with nothing to bear on them. In this instance, two of the instruments had long cabinets that only permitted 1" foam between their ends and the carton walls, but with some additional bracing from flat cardboard to spread the forces on the foam that would otherwise be concentrated by handles and the rear perimeter of the enclosure, I felt in this case that things would be safe enough with the smaller space. Additionally, as these 2 foot high cartons were much taller than needed for the stacked cabinets, their height was cut down as needed.The first step was to determine the necessary carton height. This was done by adding 5 inches to the stacked instrument height. (2" of foam on the bottom, 1" between and 2" on top, plus the total device height.) After determining this, I cut the carton down - measure and mark the corners to the new, shorter height, then cut out the excess cardboard. Lightly score along the new bend line and fold the flaps to close the carton. I put the cut side on the bottom, as the extra material strengthens it and I figure it's better on the bottom than the top (not that the carton stays upright in shipping, but on the off chance that it might, it can't hurt...) The 'inner' flaps are left at full length, and the 'outer' ones cut where they meet in the center to mate cleanly. The cut off pieces were later used to help prevent the instrument handles from crushing the foam.Once the box has been sized and the bottom sealed, a piece of 2" thick foam sized to fit snugly inside was placed flat on the bottom. The first instrument was then placed in the center of the foam, and walls built around it inward from the carton sides. In the first one, I made the side walls full height (box height minus the 4" total of the top and bottom foam pieces), whereas in the second I made them the same height as the instrument, forming a platform that the second device then rested on. I like the second iteration better as the instrument-height foam pieces can be cut on the bandsaw while the double height ones are too wide and must be cut with the razor knife. Pieces should be cut so as to snugly line the inside of the carton, then any gaps may be filled with smaller blocks. Once everything is immobilized, the divider sheet (1" foam) is cut to size and put on top of the lower instrument, the second put in the box and the process repeated. Finally, the top foam piece is put into place and the carton sealed up.Following are some of the pictures taken as things were packed up. The first few showing the measurement and the box cutting were from the second pair that were packed up (I neglected to take photos of this when doing the first ones). All photos are in the gallery linked to earlier in the post.Measuring height:Marking box:Cut down box:Instrument on foam in box:Gaps around cabinet being filled in:Spacer blocks threaded in between knobs and switches to fill gap between front panel and wall:Divider layer:Second instrument in box with foam around it:Top layer of foam:-Pat

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 09:58:49 pm
content: Excellent work, Pat. Very thorough.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 10:10:27 pm
content: Thanks! The first totaled 107 lbs and the second 90. I need to find lighter crap to buy!!-Pat

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 11:24:11 pm
content: Or a second house in California.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 11:55:03 pm
content: Quote from: Cubdriver on August 12, 2016, 09:52:53 pmThanks. Most helpful.Another data point. I've recently received a vintage Mac Plus that the kind sender packed in accordance with my wishes - which weren't too different from your technique.The Mac Plus was tightly wrapped in 4 layers of bubble wrap.A large shipping cardboard box was lined with foam polystyrene (styrofoam) ~2cm thick.There were 2" gaps between the foam polystyrene all round the The Mac+bubblewrap; these gaps were partially filled with foam, like your spacersIt arrived safely, although I would have preferred the spacers to be held in position.The major difference between your scheme and the one that currently interests me (oscilloscopes) is that with scopes there are no useful gaps between the front-panel keys into which the spacers could be located. I would have to rely either on the bubble wrap or on fabricating a protective shield. The latter ought to be easy since I have access to a laser cutter.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 06:14:26 am
content: On occasion in the past I've also filled the gaps between the spacers with packing peanuts. The spacers carry the load, and the peanuts help to hold them in place and prevent them from moving out of place. The thing I've found with peanuts is that you have to put enough in the box that they get a bit compressed; that keeps them from moving around and letting whatever they're holding work its way to the bottom of the carton. If the peanuts are crammed in tightly enough that they can't move about, they do ok protecting things that aren't too dense.People who toss in a few handfuls and leave them free to move are begging for trouble. Pick up the finished package and shake it. If you can hear and feel the item shifting about, it's not properly packaged! I (and no doubt most of us here) wish more e-bay sellers would learn that simple concept!-Pat

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 07:29:20 am
content: Quote from: Cubdriver on August 13, 2016, 06:14:26 amThat's the key, exactly. Slightly over stuffing with peanuts also helps prevent the object inside from getting loose as the peanuts collapse during shipping.

author: iXod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 02:49:47 am
content: Tom is experimenting with creative ways of making bulletproof packing.

author: iXod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 03:16:30 am
content: The "Six Pillow" technique:Get six plastic garbage bags. Purchase enough styrofoam peanuts to fill two of them.Place the equipment into a close-fitting box. Tape it well.Obtain a large box, at least 4x the volume of the box surrounding the equipment.Partially fill one bag with foam peanuts and place it in the bottom of the box. (The peanuts fill exercise requires trial-and-error, as the fill depends on many things.)Stand the inner box (containing the equipment) on the peanut-filled bag.Fill 4 more bags and place them on the sides of the equipment box. They should be quite snug to keep the equipment from moving around. These bags should not be so large as to reach the top of the outer box, but should leave enough space above to allow the 6th bag to cover all bags and the equipment box.Close and tape the box closed. It is acceptable to "go nuts" with packing tape here. Do not use duct ("duck", "gaffer's", "Gorilla") tape. Many shipping services will not accept such a taped package and will disallow any damage claims. Use only clear plastic packing tape. Lots of it.There you have it.I shipped a quite heavy analog power supply this way across the US continent and the only complaint is that a nut came off of an adjustment pot (there was no knob on the pot).Cheers!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 06:19:29 am
content: Quote from: iXod on August 15, 2016, 02:49:47 amI'm not sure that is relevant to the problem at hand.I don't care about the packaging surviving the shipping; I care about the contents. If the packaging is destroyed while protecting the contents, that's a good tradeoff.The use of a solid block of steel isn't comparable to an instrument, since the very different weight:area affects the ability of packing materials to reduce shock loading.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 06:25:53 am
content: Quote from: iXod on August 15, 2016, 03:16:30 amGiven the cubic relationship between linear dimensions and volume, why is a volume ratio the right relationship to use?Whatnon-destructivetrial and error tests are you performing, and what are the acceptance criteria?QuoteWhere did you find that out?

author: TopLoser
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 01:29:19 pm
content: Quotehttps://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/how_to3.htmlCan't see any reference to disallowing claims or not shipping items, but they do seem to prefer simple plastic tape.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 04:09:18 pm
content: Quote from: TopLoser on August 15, 2016, 01:29:19 pmUseful reference, thanks. ISTR seeing it before, and concur with your assessment.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2016, 04:51:58 pm
content: Patrick Manning on the Yahoo hp_agilent_equipment has photos showing how he packs several 19" instruments for transportSeehttp://pmanning.smugmug.com/Electronics/Packing-heavy-instruments-for

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2016, 05:58:47 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 08, 2016, 04:51:58 pmYes, good stuff. For additional narration from Pat, back up to reply 70 of this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/how-do-people-pack-delicate-instruments-properly/msg1003220/#msg1003220

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2016, 06:38:52 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on November 08, 2016, 05:58:47 pmHah! You have a better memory than I do! My only defence is that there are more pictures on his smugmug page.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2016, 07:57:08 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 08, 2016, 06:38:52 pmNo worries. It's the collective memory of the EEVBlog!

author: sidspop
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2016, 12:14:42 pm
content: Local builders merchants, look for Jablite. Up to 4" thick.Used for insulation in building trade

author: eeverlong
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 03:03:43 pm
content: I usually use bespoke foam packaging cut to size for expensive instruments. Anything electronic make sure to use anti-static foam. Give these guys a shothttps://www.gbfoamdirect.co.uk/

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 04:49:20 pm
content: Quote from: eeverlong on January 08, 2018, 03:03:43 pmBookmarked; thanks.Which foam grade have you found to be best, and what thickness would you use for, say, a 25lb/11kg scope? (Assume already wrapped in bubblewrap)

author: soubitos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 07:02:01 pm
content: Back in my years in the Airforce, i saw once a huge aluminum box with a top removable lid which contained an A7 Gyroscope i think... inside the box was a small metalic platform or plate which was suspended by all 8 corners of the box with spring cabling... the gyroscope was sitting on top of this plate and was held in place with a net i think it was.... the idea was that even if you parachute the darn thing, it would not touch either side of the box and would be held in place absorbing most if not all of the energy applied to it by serious fall or hits....It seemed weird that they got into so much trouble and cost to transport a small box with connectors and knobs or whatever... when i found the gyroscope was worth its weight in gold, i stopped loughing

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2020, 08:23:48 am
content: There has been some useful specific information appearing on the groups.io HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment list, with the subject "Shipping an 8510C".The key points by Greg Muir include:QuoteFFI seehttps://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/message/101975and subsequent posts.