UK Engineer petition - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2011, 10:03:24 pm
content: For those who believe its a good idea to protect the title of engineer for graduates, please sign the petitionhttp://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/6271

author: quantumfall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2011, 11:08:21 pm
content: Definitely a bad Idea.It might lead to a lot of "paper experts" with no practical experience who would look down on people with far more real world skills, like our dave has.Who has every right to call himself an engineer IMHO.They may form associations and act like tin pot dictators in the future. Or use their elitist title to justify large fees to certify work for invented legal schemes and quangos.An engineer to me is a man who can do, not a graduate with an exam pass.In the building industry in the UK I have seen people with membership of professional bodies who have to ask the most basic questions of tradesmen because theyhave little practical knowledge, yet justify fees for consultation and design because of a paper trail of exams and so called superior knowledge or membership of arecognized pro body.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2011, 11:16:29 pm
content: Also disagree - engineers are certainly undervalued but I can't see how this sort of institutionalizing of the title would change this, but it would undoubtedly deter some les academically inclined but very able people from entering the profession.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2011, 11:32:22 pm
content: I received the link via Linkedin so I posted it here.Its up to each individually to evaluate their beliefs regarding this. I personally think its very important and don't think it will stop anyone from practicing electronics design work or entering the field. I'm cogniscant that electronics engineering is slightly different to other forms of engineering but I generally want public works projects to be staffed by graduates. I'm not sure that it would lead to an increased valuation in the UK of the role of engineers in the short term but I think it could be a start to remove any ambiguity between what an engineer is and what a tradesman is. I think that is fair given the effort required to graduate. In the long term it would be good if that differentiation lead to improved wage conditions in the UK for engineers which quite often look tragic to me.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2011, 11:33:54 pm
content: This is a debate that has gone around in circles forever.On the one hand, it is reasonable for there to be a professionally recognized title as there is for doctors and lawyers. (In a sense, there already is--see below.)On the other hand, it is nearly impossible to claim back the title 'engineer'. In Europe this title means 'one who is ingenious'. In the USA it means 'one who drives trains'.So protecting the title of engineer is a lost cause. However, what exists now is the title and designation of Chartered Engineer or CEng. To be awarded this title you don't necessarily need to have a degree (although it helps), but you do need to be able to demonstrate professional capability and experience. A degree by itself is not enough.If you really want to know if someone is an engineer, look to see if they have CEng after their name. (Or EUR ING, or P.E.). Some of us don't, of course, but it is available to us if we try.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2011, 11:37:04 pm
content: Bad idea. Leads to the sort of idiocy like what's necessary to get a PE in some places. The privileged always end up protecting their own with unjustified laws and limitations on everybody else, competent or not.

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 12:01:12 am
content: Oh no, not again ...Degree engineers will say 'yes' and non-engineers will say 'no'.The medical profession, legal profession, political profession, military etc all have professional titles protected. I don't see any reason for this not to be different for the engineering profession. However there is a distinction between professional title and job title, allowing a person without the engineering qualification to undertake the role of engineer as a job or career.I don't really care one way or the other, having been in the industry long enough to know that what you do counts more than what you say you can do (except maybe in marketing). As a martial arts instructor once said to me, 'the elite martial artist is recognised by how they walk, talk and conduct themselves, not by the colour of their belt'.

author: quantumfall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 12:17:47 am
content: I think its quiet simple, I think of a heating engineer for arguments sake as a person who can design and manufacture and install a competent heating system or supervise that work to an acceptable standard, IE it works safely and efficiently is cost effective and reliable among other things.If he can do that he is an engineer of that type. Apply the same criteria to massive bridges and any other practical problem of engineering.To limit it to just graduates is wrong do they have some special mind ? I think not. I know a UK Cambridge graduate a lovely man, but not at all practical minded.I know in this litigious age, if you are supplying a service or providing anything to the public or private sector you want to be sure to have some credentials that give you respect and a degree of legal standing if that's possible.I have a lot of respect for engineering experts who are just that, a degree is not a prerequisite, that is just elitist and narrow minded.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 12:27:06 am
content: if you can make one subject as a syllibus in U learnt by kids, then you are engineer

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 12:32:49 am
content: I am a "non-engineer" & I believe that an "Engineer" is someone with a Degree.In a few parts of Electronics,I probably know more than some Engineers,but that doesn't detract from the amount of work & effort they had to put into obtaining their qualification.The term "engineer" has been diluted for many years in the UK,as compared to Australia,where at least among my generation of Technician/Technical Officers,"Engineer" has meant a Univerity graduate.The funny thing is that in Australia,"Technician" has also become downgraded as a level of competency,until in many cases it means basically, a "button-pusher",or "Engineer's labourer"On the other hand,Auto Mechanics now want to call themselves "Technicians" because it somehow sounds better.Of course, to be aLab Technician,you need a Degree!In the words of William Shatner, "Weird,or what!"VK6ZGO

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 12:34:28 am
content: Quote from: quantumfall on November 02, 2011, 11:08:21 pmMight? What happened to" already does"?QuoteEvery right in the world! Those without formal qualifications however should never be trying to make others falsely assume they do. Not something I am accusing Dave or anyone in particular of doing. Was Steve Jobs an engineer? The tosspots with their petition would have to say no or concoct yet another of their honorary gongs.QuoteMay? In the future?QuoteThat's called consultancy!You know, where design work is sighted rather than checked. The gentle art of duck shoving responsibility while demanding fees. Where the leg work is done by unassisted graduates and the senior partners efforts are spent entirely on risk minimisation.QuoteA qualification is a mark of achievement, it's like a drivers licence, a mark of attainment. Having a license doesn't make you an expert drive having an engineering degree doesn't guarantee expertise.QuoteAsking when you don't know, and not dismissing tradesman and technicians is what a good engineer should do! The stupid ones are the ones who dismiss others and assume only those with a degree could participate.Only absolute buffoons believe that degrees are the sole path to knowledge equally dismissing degrees as pointless is ignorance. There are lots of people with dumb ideas on this planet including those who determine salaries. Think about it.

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 12:54:18 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on November 03, 2011, 12:34:28 amWell put. There is a fine but important distinction between qualification and job title. Many engineering positions can easily be filled by suitably experienced people with the right attitude, rather than qualifications. Even so, there will be some positions that can only be filled by those with suitable qualifications and experience.Not sure I'd want to be going into theatre knowing that the 'surgeon' was just an enthusiastic butcher!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 01:00:00 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on November 02, 2011, 11:32:22 pmI'd have thought the selection criteria of competence would have been more importantant than attainment. Would it be right to reject a more cometent, skilled and experienced candidate on the basis of a paper qualification?QuoteHow quaintly 19Th century, the little man who comes in and the bow tied professional at the drafting table. The world has moved on from that kind of stereotyping (that is those with a clue have) Tradespeople can produce some excellent engineering, more than a few times you can see engineers who are also excellent craftsmen. The boundaries today are very much blurred with considerable overlap. We need to encourage engineering not pontification about some bullshit workplace class system.QuoteOh boohoo did those nasty tutors make you get up at the crack of lunchtime just to be able to attend lectures and stuff? Do you think for the rest of the workplace it just happen? Their ability and considerable expertice somehow just materialised?QuoteIf you want to take a historical look at why Brittain's one time world leadership in engineering ended up as a basket case. You'd see that a lot of it was directly attributable to wage by status over ability and removal of incentive. You honestly believe you should earn more than someone of equal competence doing the same job because you had the good fortune to take time out to do a degree? Your degree should be entitlement to be further up the queue in the interview process, after that your pay should be based upon application and ability.

author: quantumfall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 01:09:36 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on November 03, 2011, 12:34:28 amI totally agree some graduates believe they are special or better they have a false sense of worth, But I understand that a greater depth of theory can bevery good to have, it helps to have programmed in machine code if you later only use a high level language for example, it gives a better grasp of the system and computing.This knowledge is not just available to graduates though.Yes the the man I was thinking of was a member of the institute of building M.I.O.B he was a good engineer.He would often put in structural components that was a lot bigger than really needed to make sure, he did not trust his own calculations and the client had to foot the bill. A client once asked us if he had shares in British Steel. he was cautious with his designs.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 01:30:13 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on November 02, 2011, 11:32:22 pmI personally think it quite pointless. If you want to improve the status of engineers and engineering petition for more of them to be paid like doctors and architects.Quote from: gregariz on November 02, 2011, 11:32:22 pmThe ones that are just a bit too good to be flipping burgers or stacking shelves? In the UK a degree is no longer an indication of anything much except personal debt or rich parents.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 01:37:09 am
content: Where does all this talk of "graduates" come from? The petition in the first post does not mention that word, and the route to professional registration as a chartered engineer in the UK generally provides alternate paths for those who do not have a degree.I would suggest that those who care should get themselves registered as a chartered engineer, and those who don't, do not. It's really not that complicated.In the USA it is true that vested interests and protectionism are involved, but that is really not the case in the UK. If you want it, go for it!

author: quantumfall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 01:53:13 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 03, 2011, 01:37:09 am"Where does all this talk of "graduates" come from? " From the original post "For those who believe its a good idea to protect the title of engineer for graduates, please sign the petition"

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 01:58:39 am
content: Quote from: quantumfall on November 03, 2011, 01:53:13 amRight, but the first post is mistaken. The petition does not ask for that.(Everyone in the thread has been debating a false premise.)

author: quantumfall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 02:09:36 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 03, 2011, 01:58:39 amI did not look at the actual petition as I took the original post as a fact. Still its an interesting debate. Edit: He dose talk about more graduates needed in engineering if I'm reading it correctly, but not explicitly only for graduates as you point out apologies if I was sounding harsh.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 02:19:36 am
content: QuoteVery ill conceived indeed.There are countless ways to blow this argument wide open.Dave.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 02:27:33 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on November 03, 2011, 01:00:00 amOf course,a lot of graduates didn't have the luxury of "being able to take time out to do a degree".In a different field,my daughter just finished an Education Degree,whilst working part time--It was bloody hard!!She isn't a pampered school leaver with wealthy parents,but a Mature Age student.Her life experience goes to making her a better teacher.Is she better than then teachers who went through the old "Teacher's Training College"?---probably not,but she is a damn good one,considering she is in her first year as a graduate,Many of the better Engineers I've known,came from the ranks of Technical & Trades,& also did their Degree the hard way.One reason why the Brits occupied a position of leadership in Engineering was due to their political dominance in the latter part of the 19th,& the early years of the 20th centuries,with captive customers throughout the (then),Empire.When this was no longer the case,there was still a fair time when the UK was the first choice for many.Big back stocks & investment in old ways of doing things,led them to lose market share,as other countries recovered from WW2.VK6ZGOReason for edit:-"lead instead of led"

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 03:06:42 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on November 03, 2011, 02:27:33 amI think the main aim of whoever set up the petition was to differentiate between the situation in the UK whereby your local mechanic are calling themselves engineers. The proposal as I see it would do nothing more than bring the UK into line with the rest of the world. Society will always respect the non-degreed inventor. As someone who has lived and studied in the UK IMO it looks to me like there is some relationship between this and the poor state of engineering there. But everyone will make up their own mind.I always knew the post was going to cause some ruckus.. simply because academic qualification discussions always do.As an aside I am one of those guys who trained as a technician before returning to uni to become an engineer... so I get the arguments on both sides. I could hack microcontrollers and code as well back then as I can now. But there were plenty of gaps in my knowledge. My take is however that the days of uni being for the elite has long gone. There are so many options to go to uni these days, be it nightschool, distance or parttime study in order to get a degree that really anyone who is motivated should be able to manage it - but it will never be easy for anyone, that I know myself. And not all the options are obscenely expensive. I just think there should be a reward for those who do it, and I'm not afraid to say so.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 03:39:22 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on November 03, 2011, 03:06:42 amBe careful what you wish for. The IT industry saw themselves as a bit special and worth a bit more than other mortals. Come the dot.com boom and they were demanding and getting stupidly good money. Consequentially every Tom, Dick and Maahir was enrolling into IT studies. Bust follows boom and look where entry level IT salaries are today.

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 05:47:00 am
content: Pun unintended, but this is rather "foreign" to me, as I live in the USA. Odd for me to be commenting, but figure I'll throw my two cents in.Here it is taboo to call yourself an Engineer without at least a 4 year college degree. Non-degreed engineers have to go by the title "Engineering technician" or something of that sort.When I interviewed for my current job, I listed "Engineering experience in electronics, etc., etc.", and that was enough to actually offend the interviewers, they said I had no right to claim that I had engineering experience without a degree. I told them they could re-evaluate that statement once I was on the floor for a couple months. I am no longer questioned about my familiarity with engineering principles, but that is getting a bit off topic.That said, I am a superior designer to many of the engineers, but none of them can admit it to themselves. They may be more well versed in physics as it relates to engineering, but when it comes to raw design talent, they've been tainted by excessive textbook studies. Every one of their designs looks like a diagram from a textbook, not an elegant design produced by an artist.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 12:35:48 pm
content: What's wrong with what we have already? There's HNC/HND, then there's degrees - BEng, MEng, etc. Then there's chartered status - CEng, etc.Medical professions need titles protecting for the good of everyone else as well as the person practicing.Engineering does not need such protection.By making it a protected term, you automatically make it more about the bureaucratic hoop-jumping that everything seems to be, and less about the individual and their skills. There's nothing to say that someone with an HNC in electronics engineering can't come up with a design that equals or betters that of a graduate.I also don't think engineering has an "image problem". The people that don't realise what engineering really is aren't going to change their views if the term becomes protected, are they? They likely won't even hear about it.

author: the_raptor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 03:36:40 pm
content: Quote from: 8086 on November 03, 2011, 12:35:48 pmWhich is physician. But you see plenty of them prancing about trying to pretend they have contributed to science and deserve the same status as Ph.D holders.Quote from: 8086 on November 03, 2011, 12:35:48 pmHowever as has been pointed out making "Engineer" a protected term isn't the same as restricting that to graduates. And it isn't like this situation is unique to "Engineers", for example here in Australia to be an electrician you have to do a trade certificate and four years of apprenticeship. It is an attempt to protect the public, but it is also a restraint on the workforce.For "psychologists" here in Australia you need a bachelor degree with a APA approved psychology major and a one year APA approved honours course. To be a "clinical psychologist" you need that and a masters or Ph.D in psychology. For the last few years they have been talking about making either masters or Ph.D the minimum to be a straight "psychologist". Getting a Ph.D doesn't mean you are going to be any good at counselling people.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 05:17:45 pm
content: Quote from: the_raptor on November 03, 2011, 03:36:40 pmDoes this really matter? If someone wants to make out they're something they're not, it's their problem. As long as they aren't trying to make out they're a medical professional using a doctorate in an unrelated subject then I don't see the issue in general.Quote from: the_raptor on November 03, 2011, 03:36:40 pmIt may seem like this now, but if such a thing came to be a reality, I would be very surprised if a degree or extensive experience were not required as a minimum to use the term. That's highly unfair on a lot of people who are just as good at engineering.I still don't see where the public protection aspect comes into play with engineering. Safety assurances are largely separated from the actual design.

author: lavo-1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 06:28:38 pm
content: Totally disagree.The amount of muppets I have seen coming out of university with amazing qualifications and letters after their names but couldn't hold a spanner or test a cable for insulation is quite staggering. They can quote you chapter a verse all the electrical principle laws ever devised but can they apply them, the ones I have met can not.Give me a person who has served an apprenticeship or has gained a qualification such as a HNC on day release from his/her daytime job and I will show you a skilled engineer, someone who can work without supervision and problem solve without help. They may not be able to quote you Kirchoffs laws and principles word for word but they can apply them.

author: itdontgo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 06:46:58 pm
content: I have met a lot of 'know-it-all' non-graduate 'engineers' and it looks like there are a few on here.The one thing you learn at uni (if you work hard and pay attention) is that you know nothing. Non-graduates dont ever learn this and they also tend to be contemptuous of what graduates do learn.Obviously an academic isn't going to know what to do with a spanner or a soldering iron. That's not what you learn in uni and that's the point! A group of non-graduate engineers on the other hand will never design an efficient plane or space shuttle. Two different types of people and two different jobs and that is why some of them want a different name.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 06:49:00 pm
content: Quote from: lavo-1 on November 03, 2011, 06:28:38 pmYou are quite right, but that is not the job definition of an engineer. An engineer understands how to invent and design things, how to troubleshoot things at a deep and fundamental level, how to manage costs and financial aspects, how to manage environmental aspects, how to lead and manage teams, how to deal with contracts and legislative requirements, and of course has a strong theoretical foundation to their knowledge. (And you don't learn all that before you graduate from university. The first day of your first job is when the learning really starts.)Sure you may get muppets coming out of university who don't know how to hold a screwdriver, but that speaks badly of them, not of the engineering profession as a whole. Hopefully they will learn and not remain clueless forever.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 07:29:24 pm
content: Quote from: itdontgo on November 03, 2011, 06:46:58 pmWhat drivel. Anyone with moderate intelligence can get a degree, the thicker ones just have to work harder.Claiming that grinding through a degree for 3 or 4 years makes or requires you to be a different type of person is ridiculous.

author: lavo-1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 08:36:16 pm
content: Obviously an academic isn't going to know what to do with a spanner or a soldering iron. That's not what you learn in uni and that's the point! A group of non-graduate engineers on the other hand will never design an efficient plane or space shuttle. Two different types of people and two different jobs and that is why some of them want a different name.You have just made my point entirely....I work for a Remotley Operated Vehicle company who have recently (at least 5-6 years ago) branched out into designing their own range of vehicles. They have spent millions on designing a bespoke range of vehicles to work in the oil industry. This project was solely designed by "Engineers" from all over the world and the vehicles where released about 2 years ago with all kinds of claims of class leading design and construction.Well after 2 years of the vehicles being released, they are undergoing major redesign due to to the high failure rate. These vehicles where blowing up due to silly things like poor earth continuity bonding! When these systems fail on a job they can lose millions of dollars per day in down time, as we are talking Oil Industry time which is big bucks.We lost many contracts and now the company have come to relise that they need to get the guys who repair/maintain and fly the damned things, yep the likes of me a HNC in Electrical engineering and Electronics Graduate (I hear the degree graduates etc, spit..) to help sort out the major design flaws.Like one famous Mexican Bandit said......"Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges! I don't have to show you any stinkin' badges!"

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 08:44:26 pm
content: Quote from: lavo-1 on November 03, 2011, 06:28:38 pmWhile I agree with most of this, I think you're dumbing down HNCs more than necessary. HNC students can give you Kirchoffs laws and many more besides. It's not simply a "how to use a soldering iron" course. In fact the course is mostly academic, which I imagine might surprise a lot of people who see them as "doing" courses rather than "thinking" courses.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 08:52:08 pm
content: Quote from: itdontgo on November 03, 2011, 06:46:58 pmThen as a "qualified engineer" one would be able to conjure ones self a solution, wouldn't one? Could be that attitude is severely limiting those who wish to converse with you.QuoteI could not agree more, although one would have hoped that in the duration of a degree it would be possible to learn two,three or more things. The problem remains, the common misconception, that learning is only possible by those with a degree, while at the same time a degree is equivalence to having learn everything.QuoteAs a learned engineer, you should be able to ascertain any contempt is towards the air of smug graduate superiority and any inability to treat others on merit. A Head-up-the-Ass attitude of apparent superiority has nothing to do with ability or even attainment, if anything it says nothing was learnt for the duration of an education. Anyone who assumes he knows more or refuses the knowledge or ability of others based on labels is a fool to himself and a liability to others.QuoteWhat rubbish, I know students, and academics who are excellent craftsmen.QuoteThe point of university is ensure physical skills are not learnt? What a bizarre concept! So the aim of the course is to become incompetent and arrogant? Very progressive.QuoteNever eh! Efficient planes are held aloft by smugness right? You'd do well to review the qualifications held by many of aviation's pioneers and ground-breakers, if aviation was restricted exclusively to the graduates only you'd still be travelling between continents by canoe.QuoteNo many different types of valuable and valueless people, what's best about it all is that a great many graduates do not see a degree as licence to become a smug prat. Good and great engineers devote their time to learning and engineering, the pretenders are the ones hung up on titles, suffixes and members only boys clubs.To quote a famous piece of Australian wisdom"Take your hand off it - Trevor"

author: lavo-1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2011, 09:24:50 pm
content: While I agree with most of this, I think you're dumbing down HNCs more than necessary. HNC students can give you Kirchoffs laws and many more besides. It's not simply a "how to use a soldering iron" course. In fact the course is mostly academic, which I imagine might surprise a lot of people who see them as "doing" courses rather than "thinking" courses.I meant no disrespect to HNC/ HND qualified engineers. I apologise if that is what you felt.This whole post reeks of discrimination and elitism. I myself am educated to HNC standard and I supervise many crew members much better qualified academically than me. In many cases they will go on to be superb engineers in my field but there are many so called "Uni grads", that are a waste of space and from experience I would much rather have a manufacturer/ forces trained TECHNICIAN who knows how to use his skills and training, both in academic and life experience, to problem solve a task.

author: ThePranksta
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2011, 06:52:59 am
content: This is a stupid argument, they should make a new petition: Banish all titles from the public life.If you get a semi from having a title; have a independent board which "awards" you the title after you qualify for it.For example: ECSA awards you an "Professional Engineer" title (you can put Pr. Eng after your name) after you receive a degree from a recognized institution and have been in hte industry for at least 3 years and have proven it trough written projects.However 90% of the engineers here rather take the $100 (or could be $200) registration fee and go to the pub.Had a lecturer (himself a Professor) who hated titles, he always said:"Titles are for guys with small %^&&. Being a professor is my job, you do not call other people Plumber Smith, Firemen Jones or Electrician James."

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2011, 08:55:52 am
content: Quote from: itdontgo on November 03, 2011, 06:46:58 pmI'll tell you what the number one difference is between myself and many engineers I've worked with: I don't make assumptions about what they do and don't know, based upon their education.

author: quantumfall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2011, 10:49:05 am
content: I have come across the collect letters after your name type before he was a member of everything and from my recollection a master of nothing.I know a man who was my boss in a computer company he had a degree in science, now runs a very large company he built himself and puts no letters after his name on his business card and I respect that more . He has no pretentions of importance even though he provides good long term jobs for his staff and is really important for that.Do not get me wrong here. I'm all for education and most of the graduates I have known have been great people, unfortunately you get some who feel they are above other people, special and are self deluded with importance I call them pratts.Should they be treated better for their whole life against other just as capable people for having proof that they spent time learning academic specialty knowledge, no.Are they better businessmen, can they motivate and innovate better, I do not see it.This smells like self importance rearing its head in this petition.

author: the_raptor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2011, 01:14:22 pm
content: Quote from: 8086 on November 03, 2011, 05:17:45 pmMy engineering friends are civil engineers. They may take designing safe products more seriously then most electrical engineers.The safety aspect is the only reason I see for legislating titles. The original petition seemed like a load of wank saying some people deserved a special title because they "invent". If that's the case then I am a Role Playing Game design engineer.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2011, 04:24:27 pm
content: Many years ago I worked with a guy who was just about to enter the final year of his electronics masters degree. He came to our company for a few weeks over summer to see how it was in the real world.So, we decided to give him something simple to start with - a circuit that had originally be prototyped on vero-board (and had been working). Time had taken it's toll, so some of the chips were missing and some of the wires broken. We gave him the documentation and let him get on with it. He came back a few days later to say that there were all sorts of weird short circuits on it.When I checked, he was testing the verobaord at the bench we had given him. However, as it was a tempary affair, it was the wrong hight so he decided to lift the board up on a small metal box lying around.The veroboard was touching the box while he tested it.It annoys me that when he left uni he would have gone to a job waving the fact he had a masters degree and therefore knew best.Neil

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2011, 03:48:03 am
content: Quote from: the_raptor on November 04, 2011, 01:14:22 pmThe most disgusting thing about this, is that would accomplish precisely the opposite of protecting the most talented inventors/designers... some of the most talented designers I've ever met don't have engineering degrees.As humble as I can possibly say this, I'm an incredibly talented designer, but my employer will never find that out. Without an engineering degree, I apparently don't know squat about design.It's extremely difficult to see amatuerish design work coming out of guys with degrees, that are getting paid twice as much wage as I am, to do work half as good as I'm able to do... all because of a system that expects me to fork out $50k to be "part of the club". If you ask, why not just go get a degree... well, I like getting my hands dirty too much. I'd want to shoot myself if I was stuck behind a desk.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2011, 10:58:12 am
content: Quote from: quantumfall on November 04, 2011, 10:49:05 amI know some companies that make it a policy to not allow qualifications on your business card, just your job title.Altium was like this, and it did annoy a few people ("I spent a long time getting my Masters/PhD, and I want it on my card damn it!").Not sure where the rule stemmed from exactly, but more than likely because the founder didn't have any qualifications.<RANT>I hate it when people with a doctorate in engineering or whatever call themselves "Doctor" all the time, it's just stupid.Joe Bloggs PhD = FineDr Joe Bloggs = DickheadFine if it's within the halls of academia, stroke your ego all you want, but drop it when they let you out.Doubly worse when they actually say it, rather than just in print.A doctor is a bloody medical practitioner.</RANT>Dave.

author: quantumfall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2011, 11:17:07 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 05, 2011, 10:58:12 amMaybe he didn't have any qualifications: Ha Ha.It's a tricky one to be forced not to use your qualifications if you want to is not very nice either I feel.The problem is the "I'm special / Important ego maniacs" type that will ask what university did you go to when they know you did not just to make a point.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2011, 12:03:41 pm
content: Quote from: quantumfall on November 05, 2011, 11:17:07 amWhen I was working for a Division of Siemens the the head honcho from CH issued an edict that titles were not to be used on any company cards or correspondence. That had them bouncing off the walls but then he really set the cat amongst the pigeons by removing all the marked car spaces. His answer to "where will I park" was simple, "be in earlier than those you work with". We had record productivity under his reign, the moment he was promoted on, the letters, the divisions and the customers driving round in circles came back. Coincidentally most of the best and brightest also moved one within the next 12 months. They'd become used to working for an engineer and didn't want to return to bureaucracy.THankfully a few bosses within larger companies have no need to be part of any boys club. Dangerous work though!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2011, 12:06:13 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 05, 2011, 10:58:12 amOr maybe they're from somecountries that use Dr instead of PhD. But please be a stereotypical American and don't let knowledge from other cultures stop you from calling names.

author: quantumfall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2011, 12:33:25 pm
content: Quote from: alm on November 05, 2011, 12:06:13 pmI'm sure EEVblog's not American.The point I think he is making I stand to be corrected if not is, that its ONLY a qualification and some people use it as a status thing (They need the boost to theirworth) and others find that annoying.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2011, 12:34:15 pm
content: Quote from: alm on November 05, 2011, 12:06:13 pmWhy is either necessary in the workplace? End of the day it's boys club dick waving.A Degree or doctorate is a sure fire promotion up the ladder when seeking positions, good manners and common sense would be to leave the letters on the CV where they belong.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2011, 12:41:39 pm
content: Neither is necessary and I'm not advocating putting either title on a business card. Dave is the one who made the distinction that PhD is fine and Dr is dickhead.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2011, 03:19:03 pm
content: Quote from: quantumfall on November 05, 2011, 12:33:25 pmIf you would have followed the wikipedia link you would have learned that it becomes part of the name in some countries. And is not only a qualification, but by design a legally recognized status in some countries.

author: quantumfall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2011, 09:35:16 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on November 06, 2011, 03:19:03 pmThat maybe so, but I'm pointing out what I think Dave means so it irrelevant to my post. Just to be clear it would not matter if its attached in anyway its the fact its there at all. "If you would have followed the wikipedia link" get off your high horse mate. So some are forced to be Dick Heads and some just are.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 06, 2011, 11:25:28 pm
content: I don't feel it is fair when I see a piece of paper on the broken washbasin saying 'An engineer has been called', but this is not an objective poll. To take it one step further, a petition is the wrong research tool for this issue. There should be some way of seeing how many read it and decided not to sign it. 1322 have signed and counting.

author: quantumfall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2011, 12:42:01 am
content: Quote from: Alex on November 06, 2011, 11:25:28 pmI take it you are an Engineer, I can understand if you feel a maintenance worker is not an "Engineer" and you feel insulted. but its not so bad really.I would not take it to heart too much there is a lot more to the guys who do this type of work and I know they are mostly very well trained, they need to know a lot about water storage flow rates, minimum temperatures to keep hot water to stop germs breeding and a myriad of other technical knowlege and regulations to uphold.On large buildings the maintenance guys have very complicated plant to look after Chillers, heat pump systems, sophisticated "Building management systems" and to understand several of these with their foibles is an art in its self.They also unblock the toilets and fix the sinks, true heroes thats no exaggeration.They are Engineers in my eyes if not by title. I'm not trying to put down Engineers with other fields they may be very sophisticated in what they do as well.These guys are often overlooked as true pros in what they do, like so many people who do jobs that do not get the recognition they deserve.Of course you do get the few who are bad at what they do or rip people off on costs, but I'm sure that can be said of all services including Engineering services.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 07, 2011, 01:06:19 am
content: I am aware and support all that you said. Engineer has come to mean anyone that fixes or designs anything. By fair I meant that engineer should be indicative of the profession, I did not imply anything about the qualities or skills of the person. So a Plumber would not be an Engineer in the same way you cannot call a pilot a laywer, or a secretary a translator.Maybe this whole mess boils down to the word engineer not being able to stand on its own. When I say lawyer, you get a very good understanding of what the person does. But when I say Engineer...pfffff....it has to be preceeded by some other title. Electrical installation engineer, rocket propulsion engineer, signal integrity engineer, circuit board layout engineer and so on.So maybe we should put a petition up to ban the word engineer from being used on its own!

author: quantumfall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2011, 01:46:46 am
content: Quote from: Alex on November 07, 2011, 01:06:19 amYes "Engineer" has many meanings. I think, like the 12 year old software wizard who is one .Unfortnately its a very wide term not suitable to being legalised I would think, no matter how much some feel slighted and I do think I have a feeling of how that can be.It is now a generic term in the UK I think not an accademic one.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2011, 02:48:07 am
content: Quote from: Alex on November 07, 2011, 01:06:19 amIts not just a UK thing, although things have come to a head in the UK. A similar petition has been circulating every year or two for the last 5 or 6 years. Its about 100 signatures a day at the moment. There were over 20,000 signatures a year or two ago, but its a political issue really and depends on how much pushback the politicians get from the various trade organizations. As a result of the lack of political will, moves have been made behind the scenes to raise the qualification levels around the world so the UK 4 year MEng may be a thing of the past in a few years as it would no longer satisfy the educational requirements. Part of this is recognition by the societies themselves that, as many technicians point out, they know in many cases as much as the graduates on some issues. On top of that members have been upset that wage levels have been getting dragged down. In the US there have been some similar moves to get the industrial exemption lifted so companies just can't call anyone an engineer, but again that will be political. I personally think that's the wrong way to go but unless the engineering council goes along with it they will find their members recognition will not be transferrable overseas. That may not mean much in this field but UK civil engineers will be screaming if that happens. We've just been through the last 20 years of very relaxed and easy entry into the profession. I expect in the next 5 we will see a reversion back to the 80's.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2011, 03:41:04 am
content: Quote from: alm on November 05, 2011, 12:06:13 pmI don't give a rats arse what they do in other countries, they can do whatever they like, and likewise I don't give a rats arse what wikipedia says.As far as I'm concerned, calling yourself a "Doctor" in our field when you just have a PhD in something is being a wanker. That's called an opinion, and it's a not uncommon one in Australia, particularly in our field.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2011, 03:50:30 am
content: Quote from: quantumfall on November 05, 2011, 12:33:25 pmLet me watch all my videos again... DANG! I think I sound like an Australian!QuoteCorrect.That, and the fact that it is very deliberately confusing with medical practitioners, and I find that just plain stupid.And I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't be using it if the word doctor wasn't held in such high regard because of medical practitioners.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2011, 04:00:40 am
content: Quote from: quantumfall on November 07, 2011, 12:42:01 amThere are so many variations on engineering, and the use and worthiness of the title, that it's just silly to even talk about trying to restrict it.Perhaps there are countless construction engineers out there that build massive skyscrapers and what-not that look down upon us nerds tinkering with electronics and that take 2 years to build a chip that's 10 square millimeters, as not being worthy of the title.Or maybe there are steam train engineers that think we are all unworthy...Dave.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2011, 06:04:08 pm
content: I always preferred the title Applied Scientist since that is what (one of) my degree tells me I am anyways.University degrees are simply a filtering tool used by those who have neither the time nor the resources to test everyone's ability, especially in cases where liability may apply.I know many structural engineers that marvel at their iPhones: same problems, different scales.Plumbers generally make more money than university degreed engineers. I would be honoured to be mistaken for one as my plumbing work sucks.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2011, 10:58:37 pm
content: Quote from: Alex on November 19, 2011, 02:57:50 pmThat's terrible!!A competent engineer would have revised the note to "A plumber", not "An plumber".

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2011, 11:39:17 pm
content: A competent engineer has good communication and language skills?

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2011, 08:55:46 pm
content: almost 5000.... + new prize available...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15770648

author: McPete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2011, 02:52:20 am
content: This is an interesting discussion, from someone who hasn't got a degree, does engineering work...I read a lot of job adverts, and I see some recuitment companies almost universally ask for Degrees, often specifying they'd prefer someone with their Honours (1st class of course...), Masters or Doctorate. I read the descriptions and wonder, if I'd even pass the first look...It makes me wonder if my Advance Diploma (Associate) is really worth any more than a trade certificate! As I'm going through the process of getting my qualification, I'm not sure if I want to continue on and get my Bachelor's, but at the same time I seem to be witnessing the paraprofessional qual. I'm working on being made redundant.Do any other Australian engineering types think we're seeing the slow death of the paraprofessional engineer?

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2011, 04:50:51 am
content: Quote from: McPete on November 22, 2011, 02:52:20 amI'm going to sound like an old man for a moment, but once upon a time in Australia, the public service had classifications of Administrative (APS 1-6), Technical Officer (TO1-4), Professional Officer (1-2), a trades level (I forget the designation) and a few others. Most high school leavers who got a clerical job went in at an APS level. Most apprenticeship holders went into the trades level. Most of the paraprofessionals were called technical officers in those days and went into the TO roles. Graduate engineers wend into professional officer classifications.So back then there was a clear difference between tradesman and technical officers (paraprofessionals) and professional officers (engineers). It would appear that sometime in the last 10 or 15 years that the classifications have been reduced to just APS levels plus a few funny seniour ones.The requirement for getting a TO level job was to hold what was called an "Associate Diploma" or equivalent. Sometime around the early to mid-90's things started to get confusing. Up until about 1990-1992 or thereabouts there was a system of non-university "institutes of technology" or "colleges of advanced education". These gave out degrees and what was also called university diploma's. These 3 year university diploma's were generally regarded as somewhat equivalent to a degree, albeit a more vocational course. For example alot of music courses at uni's, IT's and CAE's were called 'diploma's' as these were generally more vocational courses than theoretical. Going back even further to about 1980, these 3 year diploma's were acceptable for admission to the institute of engineers as graduate engineers but they changed the rules around then to require a degree.Things get complicated after the early 90's timeframe because all the IH's and CAE's more or less simply changed their names to become universities. Most of the university diploma's also more or less changed names to become bachelor degrees. It wasnt long there after that TAFE colleges then started to introduce their own '2 year diploma's' and advanced diploma's and phase out what was called the 'Associate Diploma'. Many TAFE's also started to call themselves "Institutes of Technology". See a downward trend here? Its worth noting that some universities also ran Associate diploma's up until that time and it wasn't long before they changed their course titles to be things like "Associate Degree" - See uni of southern qld.In the private sector of course people have only really made the distinction between 'engineer' and 'technician'. Every now and then you would run across a Associate Diploma grad who had proven himself to his company and was titled an engineer but generally they were all Bachelor grads, or 'old diploma' holders.During this time I was an Associate Diploma holder and a TO. It was simply not possible to call yourself an engineer and it was impossible to get a job in the public service as an engineer. There were TO's working in design but we used to call them design technicians or engineering technical officers. They were not engineers. I wanted to be an engineer so I went back to uni - simple as that, it ended up taking me longer but it has done me good. I suspect the call for TO's and paraprofessionals has dropped off as the general decline of engineering in Australia has progressed. As a result you are probably rightly concerned that while you have studied more than the tradesman, that slot that you would have filled in industry has declined - just look at the APS job board today there seem to be very few openings. But the same is true of engineering grad's. Some TO's have moved into trades work, others are attempting to sell themselves as engineers. The dichotomy however is that as the market for TO's has decreased so has it for the PO's or engineers. There's always been friction between TO's and PO's but I think its greater now than before. I know a number of engineers who ended up becoming electricians. Many feel they don't do design work anymore. As a result you get things like this petition. I notice you call yourself a apprentice - engineer and I would be interested if Tafe are now telling Advanced Diploma holders that the course will make you that?You should look at it on the bright side. Back then uni's were somewhat more elitist than they are today. It was really hard to get any type of advanced standing back then towards a degree even if you had a 2 year Associate diploma from the same uni as the degree course. Today there are all sorts of articulated options including pathways into 3 year engineering technology degrees that articulate into the 4 year degree. Its never been easier.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2011, 07:38:15 am
content: Of course, the PMG's Dept/Telecom Australia went their own way.Way back when,there were "5 year trained Techs",who went to the PMG Training School for part of their training,& into the field for the rest.There were also people who came in from outside who passed the Technician's Exam--I was one of them.Passing this exam put you at the same level as the 5 year people,so the next step up the ladder was the "Senior Tech's Exam".Strangely enough,the external exams which the PMG operated ,such as the "Broadcast Operator's Certificate of Proficiency",which wererequired in the Private Sector for jobs looking after Radio Transmitters were not accepted,or necessary within the Department.The Tech/Senior Tech progression was extremely rigorous,& produced some extremely well trained people.That was the situation when Telecom Aust was formed.The Tech/Senior Techs believed that they were working at a level higher than the usual Tradesman in the Private Sector,& began agitating for "Sub-Professional status".This came,with the Senior Techs becoming Tech Officers (TO1),the existing Techs having to pass a new,& even tougher TO's Exam to get further up the ladder.The 5 year courses were replaced by a shorter course to the position of "Telecom Tradesman",& a new Diploma course to produce TO1s from scratch instituted.The idea was Techs would eventually disappear,as they all upgraded.It didn't work,however,with the Tradesmen wanting the "more prestigious" label of Technician,& not enough Techs passing the exam.So they made the Tradesmen Techs,& introduced a "Bridging Training Scheme" so Techs could become TO1s.(I was one of these"retreads").A few years later,they changed it all over again!!!--But by that time,I was working for the Seven Network.In Broadcasting & TV the qualifications were pretty clearcut:-The "Broadcast Operator's Certificate of Proficiency" (BOCP) allowed you to perform technical work in Broadcast Transmitters & StudiosThe "Television Operator's Certificate of Proficiency" (TVOCP) allowed you to perform technical work in TV Transmitters & Studios.The BOCP was a prerequisite for the TVOCP.(The Chief Engineer of a station may or may not have had a degree!)About that time,the licencing authority of the time passed off these qualifications to TAFE,who made an unholy mess of it!Eventually both these requirements became redundant,with the individual station determining if the person could do the job.There are many excellent Techs who never had the chance to pass these exams,but there are also some who are not so good!Large organisations,such as Telecom,OTC,DOA,& the various broadcasting organisations were the backbone of Electronics training over the previous years,but the "suits" couldn't see much advantage in it,so it has been allowed to "die on the vine".VK6ZGO

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2011, 05:51:23 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on November 22, 2011, 07:38:15 amI call the 90's the decade of destruction... I was doing my Associate Diploma and in between years had been interviewed at OTC and Honeywell.. thinking that I may change over to their 4 year cadetship program. By the end of the year (~1991) honeywell had told me they were discontinuing it and it wasnt long after that OTC announced they were being split off? Telecom was already well in trouble. My best mates dad was a Telecom tech and all I heard was they were downsizing and hemoraging tech's left and right. About that time AWA self destructed. Then we had that wonderful recession. A bit later I was sitting on a job as a TO working with some contracted engineers who came in to install a microwave system. And their jobs kind of looked cool.. so I went back to uni the next year, just down the road from them actually... when I came out they had already gone belly up. It became a pretty sad set of affairs really.. I left and went back to the UK, did a grad course and various other places before ending up in the US. I've heard all sorts of things from my Assoc Dip buddy TO's over the years... some joined the defence force.. one even ended up selling frozen chickens. If I was still a TO I have no idea of where I would have ended up.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 22, 2011, 08:34:02 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on November 19, 2011, 10:58:37 pm...and an even more competent one would decide that doing so wastes more value in ink than it adds grammatically.We can do this all day!Quote from: vk6zgo on November 22, 2011, 07:38:15 amI believe this is related to the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 according to which the polytechnics in the UK were able to award their own degrees like universities do. Could this be the same thing with Australia being a UK commonwealth country? This 'universitisation' made the UK into a higher education hotspot, attracting vast numbers of students from Europe and Asia.Quote from: alm on November 19, 2011, 11:39:17 pmYou are in for a surprise...! Surprise!

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2011, 09:24:14 pm
content: Quote from: Alex on November 22, 2011, 08:34:02 pmThe UK was first at it IIRC however I think Australia was looking at the situation and realizing the value. I think there would be little doubt that foreign student numbers ballooned after the changes happened. If you are not familiar the Australian system is based on the Scottish system with 3 year bachelor + 1 year honours. If memory serves the old university diploma was often ok for admission to the 4th honours year. The TAFE (vocational/community college) system that awards diploma's today are not close to that - but thats a separate discussion. They didnt call them poly's in Aust but they all had names like 'college of advanced education', 'institutes of higher education', 'institutes of technology'. There were also similiar 'Teachers colleges' and 'nursing colleges'. Most (maybe not the teachers/nurse) had been awarding degrees since their founding, usually in the 60's or 70's. Many of them were awarding Masters degrees, and some of them like the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology was very well regarded, giving out PhD's and well up there in terms of reputation with the Universities. So well regarded RMIT decided to keep its IT title until today but around that time simply tacked university on the end to become RMIT uni. Almost all the others changed their names to become uni's or were merged with other uni's. There were other politics involved as well. The older universities were (probably still are) receiving alot of the government research moneys and that upset some of those in the CAE's who were pushing for greater funding - so I'm sure the move to uni's was partly driven by the desire to get a bigger piece of the research pie. It didn't always work out that way though as I did my assoc dip at a CAE and when the system changed it was only a few years after some of the staff that had taught me were pushed out (they only had bachelor or masters) to make room for the new influx of PhD's. This has resulted in their own problems. I remember some politician complaining in a rare PR slip a few years back that the nurses (who now all given degrees) no longer want to hold the 'chunder bucket'. I guess the discussion of the PhD only faculty now has similiar criticisms but that is another discussion.

author: steaky1212
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2011, 01:47:28 pm
content: Scotty is an engineer, the guy that fits a satellite dish is not.it might be elitist, but when someone finds out I am an engineer I always get questions about cars making a knocking sound, picture being fuzzy on tv - generally stuff being on the blink.then I explain I'm an electronic engineer - "oh like an electrician"ffs... erm.. I work in R&D

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2011, 07:01:06 pm
content: Quote from: steaky1212 on November 23, 2011, 01:47:28 pmTry telling people what you do, let them worry about what to call you.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2011, 08:34:53 pm
content: Quote from: Alex on November 22, 2011, 08:34:02 pmIf a person is happy to be identified as a "near enough, is good enough type", something that is not a good reflection of competence or ability. Precise and legible communication is an essential skill for any good engineer or professional.

author: McPete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2011, 04:30:55 am
content: QuoteI actually work for the ANU- as a Trainee Technical Officer! I'm just wondering aloud if anyone besides my current supervisor actually gives a rats about my qualifcation!The "Apprentice-Engineer" thing is more to to with my background, and where I'd like to be in the future. I've done an Instrumentation and Control trade (cert. III), now doing a traineeship... After that, if I'm contemplating doing a Bachelor's of Engineering. CIT don't actually give us a title. The term bandied around most is "technician".I find myself, day to day, repairing scientific equipment, ranging from heater stirrers, to centrifuges and mass spectrometers, plus design work for researchers- Quite often on very strange designs.

author: steaky1212
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2011, 01:34:50 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on November 23, 2011, 07:01:06 pmRufus, I tried doing that - but all I get is blank stares. Its like "wait - people actually design those" as if stuff just happens by magic or "I have no idea what one of those is".Fortunately here I can say i design rj45 jacks and people instantly know what Im talking about. SNMP enabled environmental monitoring kit is mostly understood, and intelligent infrastructure management is rarely.I am sure everyone gets the same problems.