South Australia has no power - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 09:57:14 am
content: South Australia (as in the whole state) is currently without power. For those not familiar, we're talking about an area of almost 950,000 square kilometres and 2 million people. Today they experienced quite a large storm cell with very heavy rain and hail.Details of what actually failed are still sketchy and I don't really know too much about how their grid is arranged, but it seems like they put all their eggs in one basket (with a single point of failure) and relied too much on wind power (which is currently doing nothing despite gale force winds). There is a grid tie-in with neighbouring Victoria but this doesn't seem to be doing anything either.According to some sources, in about 6 minutes, most mobile base stations will have depleted their backup batteries and power is not expected to be restored until tomorrow morning. One premier is saying "...damage to the network caused a frequency surge in the power network and automatic fail safes triggered to cut generators and the interconnector. This needed to happen to protect the national power network".

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 10:09:29 am
content: Wow.NSW should follow their example and keep on shutting down perfectly good coal fired generating plants. Not just mothballing them, but actually trashing and dismantling them. Because it's so great being without electricity, especially when heading into a 50 to 100 year new Maunder Minimum. (Hint: SA is just one of many record cold & stormy weather examples globally these days. Check outhttps://iceagenow.info/)Being the conspiracy-suspicious nut I am, I can't help thinking the policy of subsidizing 'grid tied' home solar electric systems, that WON'T generate any mains power if there's no power on the grid, fits nicely with Agenda 21 goals. Makes sure that when the grid goes down (by deliberate policy mismanagement) almost no one has any workable local backup power.BTW, I though cell base stations were supposed to have a day or two of battery backup?Also, the sewage pumping systems won't be pretty.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 10:10:01 am
content: QuoteThat would be hilarious, as the point of having a grid is so there is no single point of failure.Quotetoo bad. Did solar kick in though?sounds like they focused too much on the "re" portion of the reusable energy, not enough on the "usable" portion of the reusable energy.

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 10:40:32 am
content: Currently sitting in the dark st home in Gawler (hour North of Adelaide).4G is still up and I have 3 battery banks charged so mobile will stay useful.Interested in how long the mobile network will stay up.Also interested in how long we will have water pressure.Lesson learnt. I'm so not ready for the [insert name] apocalypse.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 11:33:00 am
content: I heard tonight on the ABC that people are stuck in lifts (elevators). And people cannot get home because the public transport system is out. And there are no petrol stations open. It was not a single point of failure, but multiple.A symptom of what will happen when if the Internet dies, only much, much worse. Warrnambool was a better indication of Armageddon when the Telstra central office died for a few weeks, halting the town. What can kill the Internet? A massive solar flare. It will happen eventually. Be prepared.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 11:46:14 am
content: "underground cable users will be fine"Are those cable users have all underground cable runs all the way to the power station?The community I live in has all underground cables but overhead wires outside where tree falls kill power when someone blows her candle.Tree nuts in our little village wouldn't allow tree cutting (we were one of those tree cities) until we got a few massive hits where we were out of power for two weeks a stretch - there was a massive run on power generators.Those nut jobs just aren't capable of thinking in a logic and rational way.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 11:48:35 am
content: Has nothing to do with renewable power, it's the grid itself that failed.http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-28/south-australia-without-power-live-blog/7885972QuoteWild voltage/frequency fluctuations is the #1 cause of these major blackouts.In this case the trigger is storm damage to transmission lines, and lightning striking a power station.Also thishttp://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-28/sa-weather-south-australia-without-power-as-storm-hits/7885930QuoteFor those unaware, Port Augusta is where the big brown coal fired power station is located. It's currently mothballed, but even if it were running the same thing would have happened. Possibly worse as more electricity would have been flowing over these lines.Still trying to find out which power station was struck by lightning.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 11:48:59 am
content: Traffic wasn't that bad, I got home from the CBD In Adelaide South Aust with no traffic lights about 20%longer than usual.I heard the high winds , cyclone strength, tore down a major feeder line from the power stations (about 50km north of Adeliade) and the network guys shut down the grid to repair / disconnect them.The interconnector lines (x2) to the nearby state are both working I believe. We lost power for about 1 1/2 hours , just long enough for me to get the generator out and fuelled up and running and then the power comes back on!We have a serious storm event happening so a fair chance of further power outages in the next 24hr or so yet.I think the real issue is the guys making decisions over the grid are NOT Engineers but accountants, environmentalists and politicians. I pity the poor buggers (Electric Engineers) who have to manage our grid with sweet-FA base load capacity, and a truck load of solar and wind. (speaking as non engineer)Edit; grammar

author: batteksystem
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 12:04:42 pm
content: That's why it is important to be prepared for SHTF.

author: andtfoot
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 12:32:51 pm
content: Yep. I'm in Mawson Lakes for work at the moment.Caught a bus into the city, found nothing open, walked back, and have just cleaned out the hotel mini-bar for dinner.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 01:01:09 pm
content: Quote from: andtfoot on September 28, 2016, 12:32:51 pmBe prepared for a big bill. I knew a bloke at IBM in Australia who consumed the entire contents of a minibar just to tick it off his bucket list. It cost him around $1,200 in today's dollars.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 01:11:55 pm
content: RIP South Australia.You have been witnessed. May the few remaining road warriors live like kings.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 01:36:58 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on September 28, 2016, 11:33:00 amI got stuck in a lift at the old Altium building when the power failed. Got rescued out the top roof hatch Die Hard style by the fire brigage

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 01:42:52 pm
content: Quote from: batteksystem on September 28, 2016, 12:04:42 pmI'd love a home solar storage system for this eventuality, but practically speaking the odds of the power going down for days at a time across all of Sydney are pretty darn low. It's never happened in Sydney in my memory, so I wouldn't get a system just for that eventuality.Main problem is keeping the fridge going so food doesn't spoil, athough apart from restocking cost even that's not a big deal for a while.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 01:47:45 pm
content: "I think the real issue is the guys making decisions over the grid are NOT Engineers but accountants, environmentalists and politicians."Think big and then think bigger. The biggest threat to humanity today is global warming.And your experience there proved it,

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 01:53:43 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 28, 2016, 01:42:52 pmWe had a power outage which lasted for almost 3 hours a couple of days ago affecting a small area. It is very rare to have such a long outage but it seems they have a significant problem because there is a truck with a generator powering a small distribution transformer running around the corner. Dunno if I'm on that generator or not but the power company does seem to have these mobile generators on hand so why invest in your own system (which will need maintenance, repairs and replacement at some point)?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 02:28:06 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 28, 2016, 01:53:43 pmMaybe half a day is the longest I can ever remember in Sydney.And maybe a couple of hours at most at my current suburb that has underground power.In all cases the power hasn't been out over all of Sydney, let alone all of the state. Can anyone from Sydney ever remember an entire Sydney basin blackout?I found this from 1951http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18195716and from 1947:http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/49360152Australia doesn't even make the list:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_outagesAlthough now maybe it will?

author: Jeff_Birt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 02:44:55 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on September 28, 2016, 01:47:45 pmI hope you said that in jest. Global warming? Phft....

author: Syntax_Error
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 03:08:06 pm
content: His statement caught me off guard at first, too. But after careful inspection of the context and dannyf's views on many issues, I believe he is insinuating the red herring of global warming as the vehicle for political control of populations as the greatest threat to humanity, not that global warming is real and a threat in of itself.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 03:11:39 pm
content: We've had several here, and it's usually due to something like an early ice storm when leaves are still on the trees. Ice is HEAVY, and basically everything that can come crashing down comes crashing down. If you're lucky, you're out for a day or two. areas a bit further out go a few days. Some go a week or more. I think the last one we had people without power for several weeks. I was personally without power for several days one time, and for almost two weeks another, and this is in cold temperatures and very limited access to gasoline to keep a generator going, even if you've got one. The wife went to work and I stayed home keeping the fire going and cleaning up the damage best I could.Upshot of all this? It ain't so bad and you get through it. I always laugh when everyone panics because all of the food in the refrigerator will spoil. Seriously? It's 40 degrees outside...figure it out!Anyhow, good luck to them. I thought we were the only modern country left with a third world power grid.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 03:48:46 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on September 28, 2016, 03:11:39 pmWhat 40oF or 40oC? Where are you? Up north, on top of a mountain?

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 04:11:04 pm
content: What is also great is that most new homes are built with no gas and you need to use electric cookers. Can't make coffee or tea, can't prepare dinner, etc.Also, the largest power outage in The Netherlands that I can remember wason 27 march 2015, which lasted from 9.30 to I believe 14.00 at my place, but lasted up to 15.30 in others. So that's about 4-6 hours power outage for ~1 million households (households - not people - I believe 1 household is 3-3,5 people).I am usually pretty bored to death during an outage. I've had half a dozen local outages at work in the past year or so, and I usually would start cleaning my desk in such case and if any interesting reading material at hand read that. If it isn't resolved in like 3 hours, then bad luck.At home I'm glad that my laptop's battery is good enough to last 8 hours if I want it to. And to be honest I think it's exceptionally rare for outages to last longer than that. Of course it's inconvenient that I can't make any hot drinks and meals, but as long you as keep the fridge and refrigerator closed a few hours should be OK.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 04:23:37 pm
content: Refrigerators seem to be pretty well insulated these days. We had a power outage in July that lasted around 24 hrs. when a car wreck took out several main poles right near the substation. There were many lines down in a huge tangled mess.I left the refrigerator doors closed until the power came back on then opened and took a peek. The ice cube bin was more of an ice water bin, but it was still nice and cold with a lot of ice left and the few packs of frozen food in there still felt firm and not soggy.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 04:27:50 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 28, 2016, 02:28:06 pmI cannot remember any Sydney basin power fail since 1964 (about the earliest I can remember).There may be a reason that relates to the 2nd World War and Ben Chifley (our post war Prime Minister). Hope I get this right as the following is from my memory.During the War, Chifley was treasurer and from 1942, he was the Minister for Post War Reconstruction. Apparently during the War he was totally shocked at how vulnerable electrical power networks were and particularly how easy it was to destroy coal fired power stations. With the weapons available during the war, Hydro power seemed almost invulnerable.So one of his priorities after the war was to make power in NSW and Victoria much more robust. When NSW wanted to redirect water from the Snowy Mountains into the Murrumbidgee River for irrigation after the War, Chifley insisted that the project had to include a Hydro Scheme. That was they key reason the scheme had to be implemented as far as Chifley was concerned. Many corners were cut to build the hydro power as quickly as possible. I think the only environmental impact study done before permanently removing over 99% of the water from the Snowy River was a half page letter saying they had talked to a few of the local farmers near Jindabyne and the farmers were OK with it. The impetus wasn't irrigation, but irrigation was a huge benefit for NSW and Victoria. Given that Chifley was a centralist and that his driving concern was to make NSW and Victoria power more secure in the case of another war, I would expect he insisted on proper redundancy in the new power grid. Not sure about Chifley's influence over the grid, but he was smart and it would make sense.Certainly the presence of the hydro power has helped avert many shutdowns when sudden extra power was needed in the network. Hydro power can be increased in minutes and no other major power source can react that quickly.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 04:35:33 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on September 28, 2016, 03:48:46 pm40F. Just in Connecticut. We usually loose power late fall or winter, so it's pretty chilly, but everyone still runs around worried about their stupid food. Happens every year it seems. Baffling.It's pretty common for the temperature to hit 0F, and stay there for a long time. It can get pretty chilly here.

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 05:21:50 pm
content: I once tried to find out about lightning protection and if it is possible to use a bunch of super capacitors to store the surge. Lightning doesnt have many watts but you will need a lot of capacitors. It is a DC pulse with high voltage and significant amps. It has a high watt ratings but the actual energy in J is much less as the pulse lasts for a fraction of a second.A transformer will filter lightning which is why lightning wasnt much of a problem in the past due to the isolation and thicker wire gauges and transformer sizes required in the usual PSUs in the past with grounding that helped to direct the lightning. Currently PSUs have tiny transformers and are switched based and few of them actually have a ground connection.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 05:31:53 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on September 28, 2016, 11:33:00 amI don't strange if the lifts are electricals when falls the power the lift stucksat change a hydraulic lift when goes out the power, the cabin goes down to more nearest level and opens the doors.Quote from: hans on September 28, 2016, 04:11:04 pmBut you may have a Campigas bottle or butane bottle for these situationsQuote from: hans on September 28, 2016, 04:11:04 pmSo, when you will be more of 10 hours without power(as here), a judge will have to go his home for authorising the lifting of his body (cadaver)

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 05:59:38 pm
content: Quote from: System Error Message on September 28, 2016, 05:21:50 pmThe day that you will drop a thunder , you will remember all his life. The capacitor blast might form evaporated electrolytic cloud that you might burn his aerial vias and lungs

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 09:38:15 pm
content: Quote from: amspire on September 28, 2016, 04:27:50 pmThere are frequent minor dropouts and small areas affected, but most customers never notice. Generators and industrial users do however have some challenges.

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 09:51:41 pm
content: Quote from: vodka on September 28, 2016, 05:59:38 pmWhat i meant was the amount of capacitors needed to store a lightning charge would be many, you'd need a building of them.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 11:06:17 pm
content: We lost power a few months ago for about 12 hours in the Blue Mountains, although it was localised. A tree came down onto lines during strong winds.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 11:23:44 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on September 28, 2016, 09:38:15 pmThere have been lots of localised drop-outs sometimes for many days, but no grid-wide shutdown.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 12:07:24 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 28, 2016, 12:01:34 pmI've seen UG connections go out almost as often as OH connections in some areas. It almost always happens when another utility is trying to lay cable and accidentally hits the power cable.The company burying new cable is supposed to call Miss Utility 24 hours before burying, so they can come out and mark existing lines; however, it's been my experience they're called "Miss Utility" because they always *miss* one of the buried utilities!I once had a situation where the Cable Co. came out to bury a new line; unfortunately he had to cross over a power cable which turned out not to be as deep as it was supposed to be... It *was* pretty cool to see a Ditch Witch shoot sparks out the front, though!So, three days without power, the Power Co. finally came out and decided to just bury a new line from the pole to the house (I'm not even sure if they can patch buried lines), which they did and, in the process, hit one of the two telephone lines that Miss had failed to mark!So, the Telephone Co. comes out and instead of patching the line (which they can do) decides to just run a new, single cable from the street directly to the house to replace what was two separate cables (we had 4 phone lines at the time). In the process, he hits the newly installed Cable line (which the installer hadn't marked after he installed it).So, I made the phone guy mark the new line he ran, then I went back and marked the path of the new power line myself. When the Cable Co. came back out to (again) run a new line, I showed him all the lines and pipes, then *walked with him* while he buried the new cable.Anyway, so long as the utility keeps the trees trimmed, OH lines should be fairly reliable. Every place I've ever lived has been OH to the transformer and UG to the house.Worst outage I've seen was in, 2004 maybe? We had a pretty bad hurricane and lost power for just over 2 weeks! I was 18 at the time and still living with my parents. A few days before came ashore, I was looking at some raw weather data and realized we might get a direct hit, so I told my dad and we drove across the state to pickup a diesel generator. Good thing we did!We were on well water, so without the generator we would have been completely screwed. It was big enough to run the well, fridge, lights, ceiling fans and our tankless water heater.After that we got one of those automatic whole house generators and a big ass propane tank. If you live in an area with a lot of storm activity, I *highly* recommend that solution. It's the ticket!

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 12:49:29 am
content: Quote from: timb on September 29, 2016, 12:07:24 amI just find that remark amusing. Here, if I was to drive to the other side of the state, it would take about 13 hours one way via the most direct route.They have very pretty sunsets out there though...

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 01:00:41 am
content: Quote from: station240 on September 28, 2016, 11:48:35 amNot *the grid* but the interconnector.SA cannot generate enough power for itself, so relies on power from other states.So our long power cord to Victoria got cut, and we're left in the dark.

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 01:03:12 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 28, 2016, 01:42:52 pmProblem is that most solar inverters require mains to be present to generate power.My understanding is that it's a safety requirement - if there's a local black / brown out you don't want solar supplies keeping the grid live (and lighting up the poor linesman).If you want independent power, an isloator and a diesel generator is the cheapest option.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 01:42:27 am
content: Quote from: ludzinc on September 29, 2016, 01:00:41 amThat was the biggest contributor to the problem, but the link was dropped to protect the east coast grid. It was interesting to pull up the solar figures for yesterday as SA can end up with surprisingly large percentages of the total load generated by distributed (household) solar. Attached is the graph from yesterday care of APVI (http://pv-map.apvi.org.au) showing the wild fluctuations in supply, so the solar drop out would be contributing but not a dominating force in the event.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 01:51:33 am
content: Quote from: amspire on September 28, 2016, 11:23:44 pmIts a rare event, but a short term grid wide failure or many smaller failures still end up with similar levels of availability. Here is a plot from 2009-2013 (https://www.aer.gov.au/system/files/2014%20Annual%20distribution%20benchmarking%20report%20-%20November%202014_0.pdf) comparing regions rate of failure, Sydney does well but not by a great margin.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 03:35:21 am
content: The longest power outage in the NYC/NJ area was Storm Sandy. The flooding also caused gasoline outage. First few days, all roads were impassible. No stores were open for the first week and some remain closed for weeks. There was one known fatality at "fighting over gas" at a gas station during the first 3 days in my area.For my development, power returned on or about the 10th day. We had no gasoline for another couple of weeks more as gas stations and the supply chain got repaired.When the power first returned to another town near mine, we (and probably half our development) went to a coffee shop in that town to charge-up. Competition for available outlets was stiff! There, we heard the phone call of a couple. This couple's car was empty and they called AAA (an auto club in USA) for help. The closest gas-station with confirmed gas availability was 40+ miles away in the neighboring state (PA).At or near the the end of the first week, a closer town (with public library) got power and we were able to go there for charging.I was rationing my driving as I had less than a quarter-tank at the start of the outage. For about a month, my in-laws calls me when they have gas in their town. I go there to visit (1 hour driving) and fill-up.About one and a half month later (since the start of outage) when all my area returned to more-or-less normal, I had a reason to visited a hilly more rural part of NJ. As I drove up the dark hills, I see houses still without lights, and occasion lighted house with the companion rattling sound of a gas powered electrical generator.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 05:46:39 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on September 29, 2016, 03:35:21 amBut how many money cost to carry several trailers with gas tank? and generators?

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 07:10:45 am
content: If I have the sequence of events correct, high winds took down 2 or so very large towers that connect the main city grid to some of the Northern towns and where South Australia used to generate most of its electricity (by coal), in addition there were also a lot of lightning strikes and heavy demand, the wind turbines are notorious for de-stabilising the frequency of the grid, one interstate interconnector is down for repairs. The load became unstable so the interconnector cut out, I think in the absence of significant base load frequency stability the wind generators either were cut or did so with high wind safety cut out. Voila!PS A modern built in gas stove isn't a lot of use in power failure as a lot need mains for safety circuits / gas solenoids. Camping gear is useful.Edit Tower number corrected

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 07:40:20 am
content: Being on an emergency generator sucks though. Mains synchronised clocks slip minutes per day!The camping gas gear is a nice idea though. I already have a camping gas tank for a blow torch so all I'd need is a small stove.

author: poida_pie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 08:10:20 am
content: more like 20 towers.

author: Jay_Diddy_B
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 09:37:38 am
content: Hi,I experienced a power outage that lasted about 4.5 days. The reason was an ice storm. The power lines, for the most part, are engineered to take the weight of the ice build up, however the trees are not. Ice built up on the trees and the trees fell on the power lines. A large percentage of the trees were damaged around 20%. After the event crews trimmed trees back from the power lines.The storm started December 20th. I got my power restored December 24th at about 10.30pm. The best Christmas present ever.In Canada, that time of year it is cold. The inside of my house fell to 4 degrees Centigrade. I have a fireplace in one room and I was able to burn a limited supply of firewood. I also had a small Honda generator, 700W, that I could run my TV and DVD player. I have since upgraded to a 2kW generator.Cell phone communication stopped about 24 hours into the event. I assume that the batteries at the cell sites became depleted. When this happened I lost connection to the internet. If only the hadBatterisersBatteroosFortunately, the power was restored from the centre of the town quickly, with the crews working out to the suburbs. I was able to buy hot food and gasoline in the town throughout the event.The worst thing about the whole experience is that I was disconnected from the EEVblog.....I hope that they are able to restore the power quickly.Regards,Jay_Diddy_B

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 09:47:04 am
content: Quote from: poida_pie on September 29, 2016, 08:10:20 amHoly hell.What on earth do you make those pylons with? Spaghetti ?They showed us only 1 busted pylon on the news here tonight....you poor buggers.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 09:52:24 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 29, 2016, 09:47:04 amChinesium steel, as AvE would say.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 10:16:11 am
content: Quote from: VK5RC on September 29, 2016, 07:10:45 amNot true at all, I've never come across a gas stove/cooktop which mandated power to operate. I just built a new home with a modern (and fairly expensive) gas cooktop, which of course, during normal operation requires mains power to create a spark that lights a flame. But in a recent power outage we had, I simply just held in the knob and lit it with a match (yes, I wanted a coffee). The only electrical component in my cooktop is the thing that converts 240v mains into an igniting spark. The safety mechanisms are completely independent. In fact, I think it might even be a requirement under some kind of standard?Even in cheap cooktop brands (like Omega etc...) the safety cut-outs are purely mechanical and based on thermal differentials. Once the "sensor" gets up to temperature, it holds the gas line open. If there is a 'flame out' it will quite quickly cut the gas as it cools.I did also try to run my continuous hot water system off a small 650va UPS, it did ignite when I turned the hot water tap on, but I only got a few seconds of hot water before it cut out. I can only assume it pulled too much current (pumps, fans etc..?) or it didn't like the modified sine wave coming from the UPS and the safety mechanisms cut in.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 10:30:49 am
content: Quote from: poida_pie on September 29, 2016, 08:10:20 amWhere did you get this image from?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 10:34:53 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 29, 2016, 10:30:49 amIt seems to be wide-spread in the media today Dave. ABC I think published it along with Fairfax media. Who knows though, could be a complete fakery? To me, that seems like a catastrophic failure never seen before. Aren't those sorts of towers just mounted on concrete blocks? The 'triangle' structures higher up should be far stronger in my opinion (that's why they build them that way).

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 10:46:12 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on September 29, 2016, 10:16:11 amold gas stove with oven refused to work without electricity (in the old house, maybe 20 years old)new gas stove, without oven, work without electricity, the main gas valve however does not

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 10:52:16 am
content: Re the number of Towers ; I initially read 20 or so from the ABC website, it is still on the BBC website as the number of towers down but I recall the Premier saying 2 or 3 but I can't find my source and the ABC has changed the caption of the Tower down video to "several"Re Gas cook tops, the Miele (about 5yo model now) in my old house didn't even start to play ball unless there was mains connected - lots of flame out and re-start sensors etc. Now have Induction so really buggered!

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 10:58:23 am
content: QuoteDon't worry about that. Those strong winds averaged up the estimated wind studies for even stronger wind power generation, which means more reusable energy for everyone,Stronger wind, let it come!

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 11:12:18 am
content: another view.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 11:22:30 am
content: Probably not an objective source but it seems to be well argued. I haven't read it all.http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/is-abcs-chris-uhlmann-the-new-face-of-the-anti-wind-lobby-90343http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/coalition-launches-fierce-attack-against-wind-and-solar-after-blackout-93841http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/how-the-south-australia-blackout-occurred-what-the-data-tells-us-65806

author: Moshly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 11:24:42 am
content: Another onehttp://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-29/transmission-tower-knocked-over-in-mid-north-south-australia/7890626Videohttp://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-29/electricity-pylons-melrose-toppled-storm/7889658?section=saSA power network maphttps://www.electranet.com.au/what-we-do/solutions/network-map/BOM Radar

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 11:30:08 am
content: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/09/28/entire-state-of-south-australia-has-power-black-out-because-of-flawed-climate-change-energy-policy/https://iceagenow.info/entire-state-south-australiabblacked-unprecedented/Plently of good points being made in the comments.Moshly, that SA power network map without the webery crap:https://www.electranet.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/network-map.jpgStill another downed pylon view. Interesting that only one pic so far shows a row down. Does that mean that one pic is a fake, or the others were intentionally minimizing the panic factor?If a widespread storm took down three pylons in a row, on a line that goes from SA to VIC, it probably took out a LOT more than 3.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 11:44:38 am
content: QuoteIf somebody says the photo is in Melrose then it isn't on the way to Victoria.http://www.whereis.com/sa/melrose-5483Lol why is it fake? Maybe its the best angle and people dont want to walk across a paddock in the mud to get to a downed 275kV transmission line.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 11:56:17 am
content: I think the towers (how many is unclear to me) came down north of Adelaide, the instability of the Adelaide network then caused the interconnector to cut out to protect the Victorian side. I don't think there is any interconnector damage (yet??)

author: idpromnut
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 12:19:37 pm
content: I'm not sure if this is the event that Jay_Diddy_B is referring to, but my family was without power for 2 weeks (roughly). And yes, pylons are rather fragile:

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 01:56:32 pm
content: Quote from: ludzinc on September 29, 2016, 01:03:12 amThere are several companies that sell "grid interactive" inverters for use with "grid tie with battery back up" systems. These have anti islanding features as specified by UL 1741 and IEEE 1547 to prevent the safety issue you site.It is true that the standard grid tie only inerters will not work in a power outage - though i believe SMA does sell one that allows some battery-less use of PV power during an outage (but still with the requisite anti islanding features).You're right that for rare outages a small generator is the cheapest back up power option though in the USA we've had instances were extended outages after large storms meant fuel was not easily available.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 02:41:13 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on September 29, 2016, 10:16:11 amSo , I have never seen a cooker gas or water thermo gas plug to grid . We have a cooker(decade 70s) gas that lighted with lighter or magic click and the thermo(2001) lighted with the same system of the magic click.Because for me, this very strange that a person greater than i(28 years old) ,it never had seen a cooker gas without power.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 03:15:21 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on September 29, 2016, 01:56:32 pmOne of the problems with that is that modern fuel doesn't last long due to the biofuel additions. You'll need to add a preservative to keep the fuel usable for a longer period.

author: dfmischler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 03:31:08 pm
content: Most recent major power outage (more than a few hours) for me was inOctober 2006. We had a few inches of snow when I went to bed, but when I got up in the morning the tree branches breaking in the woods from the weight of the snow sounded like gunfire. We normally do not get major snow until much later in the season when the leaves have dropped off the trees. Thestormcausedmajor traumato the city of Buffalo, NY and the surrounding towns.My water comes from a well so we ran a portable generator part time. Back-up heat from a gas fireplace worked OK, and we could cook on the gas stove top, but couldn't run the oven without electric power.We had power back in about 36 hours (power crews were staying at the nearby resort lodge), but my father-in-law used our generator for 9 days after our power was restored.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 03:32:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 29, 2016, 03:15:21 pmYes. Very true. In the US gasoline is usually 10% ethanol. You can find ethanol free gas but even that has a limited life. Preservatives only add another year or two. Diesel fuel is no better.Propane does store long term without issue which is why I have two generators which can burn either gas or propane.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 04:10:17 pm
content: If Australia had only invested in solar roadways, then you'd be OK now...

author: Jr460
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 05:38:50 pm
content: I've had a few power outages in SW Ohio. Two were caused by someone years ago, cable or phone, nicking the underground power line to the house. It didn't cause an issue until the ground was very wet and over time had settled to get close to the nicked part of of a phase. Both times they came out, found the location of the fault, dug down a few feet and spliced in some new wire. A few hours each time.The longest was about 5 years ago a tropical storm from the gulf of Mexico, stayed strong over land and rocketed up our way and into Canada. The very high winds pulled down a bunch of trees and feeders in the area as well as local lines. We were out close to 24 hours. Some places were not that lucky. A guy at work was at the end of street and tree took down the line to his and one other house. Since all the crews were working hard on the larger lines to get as many people back up as soon as they could, the one or two people for a line down where at the bottom of the list. I think he was out for 3.5 days.Back when I worked in the power industry and we had regulated power I was told why the regulations were in place. They were to encourage each local utility to have the generating capacity within their area that was sufficient to handle all their customers without having to pull power from the national grid. This helps in cases where the long lines take a hit, and also help with stability of the grid.It's been too long since I was in school, but from what I remember, you can not model the power grid with all the generators, and long lines and constantly changing reactive load. I doesn't come out in closed form, but some nasty double integrals if I remember right. Thus doing what you can to make a stable grid is a good idea. However with the move away from power regulation, and some utility 3 states away buying the cheaper local power, it can mean a less stable national grid.I tell people it is like balancing a broom stick in your hand. The lighter the head of the broom, the less you move around, the less wind, and it is not too hard. Now start making the head heavy, and add wind, and you have to start making corrections a lot faster to keep it from falling. I understand the power industry has gone that way, the control systems for whole regions react much faster than they ever had. However, it was not fast as fast as needed back in 2003, when Southern Michigan and around Lake Erie went dark on nice clam day.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 06:10:25 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on September 29, 2016, 11:30:08 amNasty stuff that renewable energy, see how it can blow pylons over.Looks like a second pylon down in the far right background of your pic as well.Check the crop - not the same as the other pic

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 06:22:36 pm
content: Quote from: vodka on September 29, 2016, 05:46:39 amI am not sure I understood your properly, so I will supply two answers...Gas supply:The power outage affected many states on the entire east coast with an area exceeding the entire western Europe! So, a few thousand gas trucks and a few thousand generators won't do much.Also, the trouble with the Sandy flooding was not just at the gas station. NJ houses the largest gas refineries in the region and they were flooded. Gas tankers/trucks has no place to go to fill their tanks. Mean time, gas had to coming from elsewhere (probably South since they were not hit as hard as the North-East).Gas powered electrical generators:First, many with small gas generators at home learned that unless the generator was drained and clean before storage, it won't work. A partially-filled generator left unattended for months (or even a couple of years) and then brought out out again is likely not to work. The gas line is clogged as small impurities settle over the months it was in storage.Second,unless they are wired into the HVAC properly, you still have no heat in the house....Third:, There is no gas to power it anyway. While first night I heard rumblings from generators in the area, but by second night it was dead quiet. No one within hearing range had a generator going anymore.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 06:30:35 pm
content: Quote from: Jr460 on September 29, 2016, 05:38:50 pmI think you have that backwards. It's a bit non-intuitive.I'm fairly sure you will find that balancing a broomstick (upside down) is easier and corrections can be made more slowly when the head is heavy.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 07:05:39 pm
content: This event even has its own Wikipedia page now:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Australian_blackout,_2016QuoteThose won't be fixed overnight.

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 08:07:02 pm
content: you need additional pylons-starcraft-

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 09:20:30 pm
content: Serves me right for following this thread, I suppose - our power went out for 4 1/2 hours this afternoon! Very localised, just a few houses fed from a common transformer. The fault seemed to be where the 11kV line goes underground to cross a paddock and a public road to get to the pole mounted transformer. Everything else is overhead. No power means no hot food - I used to have a gas hob but went to an induction hob after the LPG cylinder was stolen for the second timeSo I had to go to the pub for a mealThe usual resetting of clocks afterwards. No damage, except that the alarm system apparently has no over discharge protection for its backup battery, a 12 V 1.2Ahr valve regulated lead acid type. I'm trying to recover it now the power is back, trickling 50mA into it while the voltage creeps up. It might recover, it might not.This is in the S of England. No especial weather today that might have triggered the fault.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 10:22:14 pm
content: Another photo of a fallen transmission tower.Found athttp://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-29/restoring-power-in-sa-'very-delicate-affair'/7889846

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 10:28:16 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on September 28, 2016, 09:57:14 amWhat "National Power Network" is this,of which he speaks,Oh,denizen of the mystic East?

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 10:52:07 pm
content: Quote from: VK5RC on September 29, 2016, 07:10:45 amIn the UK the vast majority of houses are gas powered for heat and cooking (natural gas not gasoline), and electricity for the rest. The cost of electricity is nearly an order of magnitude higher than gas per kWh. Unfortunately having your 'leccy cut off will also mean your gas is effectively cut off too with modern electric boilers. Thankfully good old fashioned gas only cookers whose only electric requirement is the 1.5V D battery and "Jacobs ladder" spark generator, but can cope perfectly well with an external flame for ignition are the norm.The ability to boil up great pans of water on the stove while the 'leccy is off in order to have a bath surrounded by candles during an electricity outage in the middle of winter is not something to be sneezed at, and it strikes you how absurd the engineering of boilers and cookers are that can't simply rely on natural gas alone.PS. I hope my Uncle and his wife and all my cousins in Adelaide are doing OK. I only hear from them once a year by airmail anyway!

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2016, 11:24:28 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on September 29, 2016, 10:52:07 pmWe have similarly expensive electricity in Australia, with gas around 3-4x cheaper per unit of energy (similar ratio to our solar feed in tarrifs which is why solar electric hot water makes sense).Our modern gas cooktop will run fine without electricity, the safety cutouts are all thermal so you just need a source of ignition.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2016, 05:21:51 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on September 29, 2016, 03:32:04 pmI think the building engineers in almost every large facility worldwide from highrise to hospitals would vehemently disagree with your assessment on the storage life of Diesel.Provided it is appropriately treated for organic material (bacteria) and kept dry, compared to the more volatile petroleum products Diesel has orders of magnitude more storage life. That is one of the main reasons diesel backups make up the majority of the standby power anywhere in the world. Gas turbines are becoming more popular in well connected cities, but you can't beat the longevity and power density of a big diesel tank when you need power.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2016, 06:12:57 am
content: Quote from: BradC on September 30, 2016, 05:21:51 amDiesel treated with approriate fungicides and bacteriocides can at best be stored for a few years (anywhere from 2-5 depending on storage temperature and opinion - NFPA 110 says 1.5 - 2 years) - similar to properly treated and stored gasoline. (lots of info on the web to verify that fact). There may be other ways to extend it's life some but at most it will get you marginally better storage life, certainly not "orders of magnitude better".Diesel for institutional standby generators must be and is - properly rotated to ensure fresh fuel is available. The reasons why diesel power is chosen over gasoline for prime mover standby generators is not because of any meaningfull differences in storage life of the fuel.In any case, my point was that propane is much, much better than gasoline or diesel in regards to storage life. Assuming you have no leaks in your tank, it can be stored for decades.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2016, 03:43:39 pm
content: Quote from: System Error Message on September 29, 2016, 08:07:02 pmHaha, ah good ole Starcraft. But its actually "You must construct additional pylons."These days the power doesnt go out for me. A few years back our power would go out with every big storm. Then the power company said they had made upgrades to ensure that wouldnt happen anymore. We didnt think they were actually serious at first. But what do ya know, our power never goes out now, even when we get hit with a hurricane.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2016, 06:38:13 pm
content: Alot of the suburbs in my town (including mine), are still on a single phase system. We don't have too much of a problem except occational flickering.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 08:35:07 am
content: here is a re-post22 South Australian power transmission towers were brought down in the strong winds. here in SA We had some Adelaide politicians running around like a headless chickensknowing that IF power had been still out by the weekend & all the beer gets warm, crime rates may go up, then politicians get voted out of office.politicians

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 10:00:57 am
content: QuoteIt must have happened in China: chinese-engineered pylons built with chinese-made steel, on chinese-made concrete, and put together by a chinese crew using chinese tools powered by chinese electricity and mounted on chinese soil.Australia is the land of quality and no way australian pylons could have fell so easily like spaghetti.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 11:17:45 am
content: Unless those pylons were very old (50+ yrs) the smart money would be on them being made with qualityAussie BHP steel.Close up pics anybody?

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 11:59:33 am
content: Yep, our steel is as tough as nails down here.My theory in regards to why the power line stanchions toppled over was along the lines of the supported cables perhaps reaching a vulnerable oscillation in addition to lateral wind loading on the towers themselves, the authorities commenting on the event did declare that the winds at the time were of a cyclonic nature, this and the domino effect may explain why so many towers went over laterally going by the posted pictures.Anyway, that's my theory and I'm selling it cheap.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 12:12:27 pm
content: Those ground anchors look like they needed more rebar.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 12:54:07 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 01, 2016, 12:12:27 pmWhy? They haven't broken up. They appear to have just been ripped from the ground intact. Either they were not made deep enough to provide an adequate anchor, or perhaps the material around them had eroded over time, leaving too little embedded in the ground.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 12:57:57 pm
content: Clueless utility. I would use uBeam technology to quickly bridge the broken sections.

author: med6753
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 01:51:05 pm
content: Any update to this? That is one hell of a mess.And welcome to my (3rd) world. The vast majority of power distribution here is overhead lines. And deciduous woodland (Read: tall trees). Combine that with the power companies lousy effort to keep the trees trimmed back from the lines. So every few years we get hammered with a 3-4 day outage due to a major event such as a wind storm or ice storm. The last major outage was Hurricane Sandy so we're overdue. But we also have at least 2 to 3 short outages every year due to such things as a vehicle clobbering a pole, or a Summer thunderstorm, or a wayward squirrel committing suicide and causing a line trip.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 02:49:13 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 01, 2016, 12:54:07 pmActually, in most of these photos they are bent over some distance up with the bottom and pad still firmly attached to the ground.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 03:17:18 pm
content: Can understand ones being ripped up in desert but lush, green land should've been a tad stronger.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 03:36:27 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on October 01, 2016, 02:49:13 pmTrue, but rebar clearly doesn't enter the picture for those. The wind resistance of such an open mesh structure can't be that high. Lines usually come down when a large area of ice builds up, and wind resistance or shear weight increases to breaking point. I would expect warm towers to be damned hard to blow down.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 04:14:27 pm
content: Clearly there are multiple failure modes shown in the picture. There are a lot of possibilities. Were the winds greater than those used to design the towers? Was there hail, extremely heavy rain or flocks of avians which would couple the wind energy more effectively to the towers? Were the winds over the last decade or more higher and more variable than predicted contributing to a fatigue failure in the towers? Was maintenance shorted or neglected to save money, resulting in corrosion failure or failure to detect fatigue failures? Sabatauge?Once one tower goes the loads on adjacent towers increase so multiple failures seem likely rather than unusual. Maybe the one picture showing the foundation failure is the trigger for all of the rest.The real message here? The preppers aren't completely crazy. A little bit of effort to think about general things that could go wrong and what can be done to be ready for them may not save your life, but it can dramatically increase your comfort when something like this happens. I am not what most would call a prepper, but I have lots of food and camping gear and would expect to ride something like this or the hurricane Sandy event out with a minimum of discomfort. The idea isn't to survive the collapse of civilization, but to ride out a temporary interruption of civilization without pain. Those temporary interruptions are inevitable on the global scale, whether from natural disasters like floods, fires, earthquakes and the like or man made problems like terrorism, riots and strikes. While not every region will suffer from one or more of these types of events, they are not negligible events for most populated areas of the world.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 05:20:11 pm
content: What we need are pedal powered generators. No need to store fuel for them and they serve a dual purpose during cold weather. Make them portable and they'll be useful to power portable electronics during more usual times.Those who really need Internet service to stay up can't beat satellite, ideally in combination with a more traditional service. Maybe a self contained satellite router with a service geared for emergency use would make a lot of sense? There should be no or very small monthly fee to have the service (the equipment would have to paid for up front) but a substantial fee to actually use it.There's also a lot of stories about EVs being no worse off when the grid is down since gas stations rely on the grid. (Any reason why they haven't thought about patching in a generator or inverter? They could profit a lot doing that!) Or get a plug in hybrid and have the best of both worlds.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 05:49:32 pm
content: Quotewould hate to see high quality aussie steel being implicated here for early withdrawing from service.even the shitty american steel wouldn't do that, at least not that easily.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 08:13:59 pm
content: solar grid tie inverters have no ability to generate reactive power, so if you can get them to backfeed a centeral sine wave inverter and charge your say, 24 or 48 volt battery pack, when you pull a load on the system the central ups has to supply all the reactive power.so, for most homes where the largest reactive power demand is a 1/4th hp induction motor, this is not a problem. but a 2KW ups combined with 5KW of solar, is not likely to run your heat pump. however if you build a legit 20KW capable sine wave inverter, (even if your batteries can't handle 20kw of power) then you'll have a stiff enough micro grid so to speak to run about a dozen kw of solar grid tie inverters into your system. provided of course you have a big enough dump load on the battery side.secondly, on gasoline storage.. i have heard that there may be an attempt to dissolve butane into the summer blend of gasoline (of which there is a glut) in order to pass it off as winter blend this year in parts of the USA. so, as to why gas goes bad.. and a plastic can of it expands like a balloon in sunlight, even though the boiling point of octane is 125 Celsius.. well, its not the gas going bad folks.. its the other stuff evaporating out.I have a rototiller that started fine with half a liter of gas left in its black plastic 1 gallon fuel tank for over a year in direct sunlight (though here in the pacific northwest we don't get much). the thermal cycling had pulled in enough moisture to separate out the ethanol, but after draining the water ethanol mix off the bottom of the tank, it started fine. probably ran better without the ethanol too..I have some #2 fuel oil that is over 20 years old. seems to be fine....

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 08:17:56 pm
content: Well, here in South Africa pretty much every garage has a generator ( thank you Eishkom) along with a lot of homes. Problem with a garage is the tankage is mostly enough to run for around 3 days before they need a refill from a tanker truck, so after 3 days most if not all garages will be out of either all fuel or the most popular in that area.As for the pylons failing in a line, it is most likely a wind loading, with the wind being strong enough that the force caused one bolt to fail, probably from being loose for a while ( vibration in those towers does mean they tend to have issues with fasteners coming loose, especially if they are not regularly inspected to to bottom by a crew that does a check on each single connection, which I would bet has not been done here properly for a decade or more) and which fell out, leading to the redundant bolt taking the full load. Then this weak bolt ( on the lee side, so with a compressive load in addition to the static load from the pylon and the cables) failed in the storm, and the tower started to sway, and this oscillation built up till the support members buckled and it went down. This then added a massive step loading to the pylons both sides, and the insulators did not fail there, but dragged the structure with a massive side load, causing a similar buckling that propagated down till there was either a bend in the line to provide relief, or the line went over a hill doing the same, or the cables snapped or the insulators failed and dropped the lines. In any case there would have been a ground faule as the first pylon collapsed, which would have tripped the line, and then 2 further reclose events before the supply side feed flagged the line as a hard failure and locked it out.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 08:28:50 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on October 01, 2016, 03:17:18 pmJust 'cause it looks green don't think it's not desert. This area of OZ has had a shite load of rain (for them) and as it's their spring too, things will look green.Most of OZ is one giant iron ore resource and drilling into such back when these pylons were installed would've been a major undertaking, let alone the logistics of supplying concrete to remote sites in any quantity so one might imagine that groundwork was kept to the minimum requirement.Couple this with the unusually wet winter/spring and the resultant dampness around the concrete footing that could act as a lubricant, it's not hard to imagine these being yanked from the ground in an extreme weather event.I've seen similar toppling of trees, sometimes in extremely gusty weather when the trees are rocked back and forth loosening the roots until they can't stand it anymore and they yield to the gusts with the roots just slipping from the earth in much the same way as this pylon looks to have done.As it was a big rain event too, any surplus water would've found it's way into the footing hole as the pylon was being rocked back and forth with wind gusts.Loose, wet and shallow footings, big gusts.....over she goes.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 10:15:06 pm
content: Looking at that picture, though, they look like they snapped right off.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 11:16:03 pm
content: in terms of bad weather and shitty american steel, check this out:the highest wind speed recorded there was like 231 mph - just insane.they have quite a few (american) steel structures there, including a house that's chained down by a few (american) steel chains.not sure if aussie steel would have performed better there.Also, check up the drive up the mountain,

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 11:35:24 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 01, 2016, 05:49:32 pmWe have here a problem with Bay Bridge steel cracking at the bottom of the bay. It will be put to test in the next big earthquake. IIRC it's Chinese steel.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 11:37:26 pm
content: Its just the design loads, you can see the wind records for the area:http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/dwo/IDCJDW0506.shtmlWhile other areas of Australia routinely experience 130km/h or occasionally 200+km/h winds and their power infrastructure survives, up on the rapidly rising costs its engineered to fail but fail infrequently.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2016, 06:23:33 pm
content: Here in Florida, we have Faulty (Florida) Power and Light. We are UG here in my subdivision but OH outside of it. Here during hurricane season, which is also rainy season, power flickers are a normal part of life. I have 3 APC SmartUPS to keep my office stuff up and running. Power, however, rarely goes out for any length of time. The worst was in 2004 when we had 3 hurricanes pass by. We were without power for about 4 or 5 days. We have a 6.5kW generator, a camp stove with propane bottles and a portable table with a built in 2 burner propane stove that has a 30 gal tank attached. There is also a charcoal grill, so food prep isn't an issue. At least we don't have to worry about cold even though we have 5 seasons-hot, freakin' hot, tourist, hurricane and love bugs(twice).

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2016, 06:40:44 pm
content: Reminds me where I used to stay, which had 2 seasons. Summer: 42C at 1PM and winter : 42C at 1PM. Rain was something that was expected every few years, and which was considered that if it did not rain for 20 years it might indicate a drought.Currently live at the coast, where I was born. In the middle of a drought, and with water restrictions, but it has been pouring with rain for the last 2 months, just not in the inland catchment areas. Currently this afternoon had very high winds, and now it is a gentle rain, down from the heavy rain of 5PM to 7PM. It will rain all night, like it does most weekends in spring.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2016, 06:50:07 pm
content: QuoteCannot wait for that to happen.Though with aussie steel, the bridge might have collapsed in anticipation of the earthquake,Seriously, that's the bay bridge, right? I thought they were trying to fix (rebuild?) it a few years back. an interesting bridge from the city side.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2016, 08:31:00 pm
content: Guys, why are we still debating this...Clearly the Iron Giant wanted to eat them but you scared him away so he just left them all knocked over.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2016, 09:58:17 pm
content: still debating this yp!

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2016, 10:01:33 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on October 01, 2016, 05:20:11 pmThe performance would not be good. GeoSync satellites is around 20,000 miles up. One way trip from ground to satellite is 0.11 seconds for photon. While the speed in terms of Bit Per Second could be high, the latency time would be awful!

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2016, 10:13:14 pm
content: https://stopthesethings.com/2016/09/29/another-statewide-blackout-south-australias-wind-power-disaster-continues/Another Statewide Blackout: South Australia’s Wind Power Disaster ContinuesSeptember 29, 2016Some interesting graphs, and discussion of grid system stability with a mix of synchronous and PEC sources.First time I've seen that site.Stop these things. "We're not here to debate the wind industry, we're here to destroy it!"Heh. I like it.Edit to add another article:http://joannenova.com.au/2016/09/the-south-australian-black-out-a-state-running-without-enough-thermal-reserve-to-cope-with-contingencies/The South Australian black out — A grid on the edge. There were warnings that renewables made it vulnerable

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2016, 11:16:27 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 02, 2016, 06:50:07 pmIt's the cousin of the Golden Gate Bridge connecting San Francisco and Oakland. It has two sections with an island at the middle. The government built a new one in parallel to the old one. Some engineers suggested to keep the old one until after the first earthquake but the bureocrats didn't listen to them. They fixed the cracks above water level because they were easier to fix.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 01:09:40 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 02, 2016, 10:01:33 pmBeats not having connectivity at all! In an emergency, any working way of communication is valuable.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 02:45:07 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 02, 2016, 10:01:33 pmGlad you live in an area with good internet service. Where I live the choices are satellite, DSL at under 100kbaud, POTS at well under 56 kbaud, and on good days 3G cell phone service. Since I am not a gamer a quarter second of latency is a total non issue. Download speeds make a Linux ISO a lengthy prospect, but then for anyone not on fiber that is true to some extent.How good satellite is for disaster situations would depend on the overall system architecture. Your dish to the satellite would be robust, but if the satellite connection to the internet is within the disaster zone you just have a very long bridge to nowhere.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 04:24:02 am
content: pick two:cheapreliablegreen

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 12:11:49 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 01, 2016, 08:28:50 pmI'm not a concrete engineer, but I've some building experience and those footings look wrong.If you are going to have a significant upward pull (like a wind loaded pylon), then you design in a wide horizontal pier at the bottom of your footing, rebar goes sideways into this and ties in with the vertical rebar.Especially in a clay soil, because when that gets wet you've basically just got gravity holding it down as there's no frictionThose footings appear to have been poured into a tube form (note the ribbing), and appear to have broken part way.Either way I don't see any rebar, which would have been visible as it would need to stretch as the concrete broke away from it.If they simply bored a vertical hole and poured concrete down into it, then that's the shittest job I've ever seen.This is a bit more what it should look like:(except with more rebar as that is just a footing pier and has zero tensile or lateral force )and it doesn't.it certainly shouldn't snap in two like it has.For radio towers they just dig a massive square hole a couple of metres wide, fill it with rebar like there was a sale on,then pour in multiple cubic metres of concrete. Nuclear flasks are poverty spec in comparison.In the UK it's more common to see plinth footings with the tower frame bolted down, rather than embedded into it. that way you can check the entire structure for imminent failures.Example here:https://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/300160/427694371/stock-photo-high-voltage-electric-transmission-tower-energy-pylon-427694371.jpghttp://us.123rf.com/450wm/plazaccameraman/plazaccameraman1505/plazaccameraman150500027/40655230-end-of-an-electricity-pylon-that-had-been-sawn-to-facilitate-removal-detailing-the-reinforcing-steel.jpg?ver=6

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 01:54:31 pm
content: Obviously those piers you show look way better, but it probably just comes down to a cost per km thing.In this case they were on the wrong side of the risk vs savings ledger.But remember they run these things for vast distances, so as somebody said before they are designed to fail occasionally.The storm that caused it was really a freak, as it dumped so much rain and was really windy compared to other storms in that area.Somebody said it was a 1 in 50 year storm. Maybe.Quote from: johansen on October 03, 2016, 04:24:02 amFor transmission poles?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 05:37:02 pm
content: One of the problems is that weather statistical predictions are so bogus. We don't have enough history to constitute a valid sample for events on time scales much more than a decade. There is evidence that the statistics are not Gaussian, but we use a Gaussian assumption because it is easy and we don't have anything better. Throw any possible effects of climate change on top of that and you might as well use a dartboard.Areas I have lived in have suffered through one "500 year storm", three "100 year storms" and numerous "50 year storm events". Either I should start selling lottery advice (don't buy any number I like), or the statistics those weather predictions are based on are very questionable.Finally, the risk analysis seems flawed even if you trusted the weather statistics. If this "50 year storm" did indeed exceed the design loads it indicates that they designed for roughly a 50-50 possibility of failure over the operating life of the system. (Plus or minus 25% or so. I don't know what the actual design life of the transmission line was, but it seems unlikely that it was less than 25 years, and could easily have far exceeded 50 years.) If the operator is held liable for damages due to this design defect the savings will seem paltry indeed.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 06:41:27 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on October 03, 2016, 05:37:02 pmWe can analyse this back and forth but at the end of the day interstate power pylons are critical infrastructure and just shouldn't fail. Period.The owner (state or private) can attempt to shift blame to the conditions at the time but they are just trying to save their own skin from a public lynching.Bring it on, we need some entertainment.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 10:26:02 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on October 03, 2016, 01:54:31 pmRoughly the foundation cost (going on a radio tower) is $15K,the tower, installation, design etc maybe $85K, plus $random for tea and biscuits.I'm suggesting a slightly different concrete form (+$200?), an addition of 4m2of concrete ($400), and $100 of rebar. So an additional 0.7% on material cost. (figures wildly speculative,but you get the idea)I'd really like to see the design spec for this,clearly they've looked at every other standard pylon foundation design throughout the entire world, but instead have gone for aslightlyupscaled version of my neighbours garden fence foundation(Note that his blew down in the last storm, but mine uses a simple 1 foot pier and didn't - because, physics)QuoteWe'd need a weather geek to chime in really, but from a 10 second uninformed look at Australia's historical cyclone wind speeds, this didn't sound like anythingtooapocalyptic?Possibly on a par with European storms even? yet our foundations are spectacularly rebar-'tastic, and importantly, we don't have entire countries (and a $$$ 24/7 steel industry) hanging off the bum-end of one single pylon run.Looking at the materiel cost vs predicted fuckups per year + black swan events + jet fuel/steel beams, I'd have hoped someone would suggest the atypical garden fence post design was reckless and to just cut back on tea and biscuits.Actually this has happened in the UK, a freak snow load slightly bent a steel pylon somewhere up in North Scotland back in 2013, last time it happened was in 1987. Although even if the entire Goldsmiths University Gender Studies student body declare our pylons racist and colonially oppressive, they are not going to be uprooted

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 10:59:05 pm
content: Quote from: bitslice on October 03, 2016, 10:26:02 pmYou should get a job as a contractor and bid on the projects then since you're so confident of sourcing concrete for a remote area job at city rates. Also note that some transmission runs are more than 50 years old and could have been built to different risk assessments planning that they would be upgraded or replaced (and then weren't).Quote from: bitslice on October 03, 2016, 10:26:02 pmAustralia isBIGSome parts of the country have cyclones on a 10-20 year basis, and some are dead quiet. Some parts get several meters of snow load annually and some get no precipitation for years.These storms followed on from flooding of the region, areas seeing more than their annual average rainfall in just a day or two, but don't let that get in the way of your ramblings.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 11:05:02 pm
content: The "quality" aussie pylon has such a tiny concrete foundation that I should call my mailbox post as "huuuuuugely superior",Really, it looks like that thing was designed for 5mph wind max.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 11:58:41 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 03, 2016, 10:59:05 pmQuote from: bitslice on October 03, 2016, 10:26:02 pmThe real issue here is probably the over reliance on wind power,so again back to politicians polishing their green credentials without actually asking anyone if it was stupid or not.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 01:00:21 am
content: Quote from: bitslice on October 03, 2016, 11:58:41 pmIf the grid went down without interruption to its transmission infrastructure you might have a point, but when multiple parts of the transmission mechanically fail from act of god the power source is largely irrelevant. Yes they could have been built to withstand more abuse, but they weren't, ZERO to do with renewables.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 01:30:32 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 04, 2016, 01:00:21 amHave a look at what TerraHertz postedPutting up a few pylons overnight is doable, but restarting a power grid with wind power is not,just as you can't plug a fridge into a solar panel and expect it to work.All power generation is not the same, wind power has significant technical limitations that affect its capabilities.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 01:45:32 am
content: Quote from: bitslice on October 04, 2016, 01:30:32 amYou're completely full of rubbish, the grid was back to the majority of its demand for that time of day within 6 hours:The next day they rode through in very normal circumstances with the renewable resources unaffected. Thats a pretty amazing feat to clear the faults and return service so quickly before replacing the downed transmission. After a major failure the blackstart procedure is complicated, but it worked fine in this case despite relying solely on gas (no other plants are available in the state once the interconnector drops them off the NEM). I'm not the only one impressed, the mainstream media and power experts are singing the praises too.The SA grid has issues, but none were exposed in this event, and in fact many of the doubters are being proven wrong about the resilience and stability of the SA grid.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 03:38:57 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 04, 2016, 01:45:32 amTake it up with the source quoted then?QuoteWind turbines turn off during a storm, how is that of any use?Solar is great too, just not at night

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 03:55:54 am
content: Quote from: bitslice on October 04, 2016, 03:38:57 amYou're the one without sources, the slew rate of renewables was not unusual and not associated with the failure. All data at this point is that the transmission failures caused enough perturbation for the interconnector to trip, the renewables turning off during the storm was accommodated and didn't contribute to the failure. Feel free to come up with anything else, but back it up with data. Armchair experts like you are trying to make this into something it isn't.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 04:17:33 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 04, 2016, 03:55:54 amI'm commenting on a posters source, when did that become illegal?The wind turbines shut down as the storm hit, the actual failure of the lines came shortly after, it was the volatility (peak wind massive over supply) before this event that tripped the interconnector as I understand it.I've never claimed to be an expert, I'm just pointing out stuff that seems odd.Clearly your armchair is superior.On a political note, I see all the Leftie media outlets are gushing to support renewables at any cost - good luck at finding objective data amongst all the spin.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 04:33:22 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 03, 2016, 06:41:27 pmI think we are in total agreement. I am merely pointing out that there are two fails here. One is thinking that weather is well enough understood to design "close to the edge". The second appears to be in the actual "close to the edge" calculation. What I think you are saying, which I agree with, is that this type of service shouldn't be designed "close to the edge" even if that design is done without the two failures. Holding the operator liable for the costs of such shutdowns is a way to encourage "lots further from the edge" designs.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 04:48:36 am
content: Quote from: bitslice on October 04, 2016, 04:17:33 amYou're pointing to a single source of dubious data to support your position, a review of media puts them at the extreme fringe of nut job loonies and they're spinning it for their cause, we'll lump you with them on the fringe. A comprehensive report is coming from the government, but right now there is no evidence that the slewing of the renewable energy caused the trip, or any instability. In fact the failure looks to have occurred well after the wind generation was curtailed, through loss of transmission capacity.http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-04/electricity-security-complex-in-sa-says-koutsantonis/7899302?section=environmentYou keep making statements without any supporting basis, I'm not guessing at things here but pulling in publicly available resources to understand what happened.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 06:34:22 am
content: No, just public data?Wind power flat lines at around 15:50Power grid down at 16:30presumably the power line down event must have occurred at or later than, 16:30

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 07:05:06 am
content: Quote from: bitslice on October 04, 2016, 06:34:22 amThis is the point, an interconnector doesn't go down after 10 minutes of stress it goes down fast. The exact timings aren't yet available publicly with enough time resolution to see the full sequence of events, but if the wind generators were curtailed half an hour before the grid collapsed they're completely out of the equation. Sure SA might have needed more power reserve in gas or hydro, even grid scale diesel or "oil" can spin up quick enough with a window of many minutes, but the loss of wind generation wasn't what caused the collapse. You can head on over to wikipedia and see that SA has over 1000MW of fast responding gas capacity in addition to a 1280MW base load plant, more than enough to cover their entire demand as the dispatchable resource for when renewables aren't generating and enough to cover the shortfall from the wind being curtailed. This is before adding in the possible 770MW rated capacity of the interconnector links to the national grid.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 07:23:34 am
content: So why were the turbines allowed to peak?Surely if you know a storm is coming in, then you also know that you are automatically going to lose all your wind power through overload shutdowns, and now with hindsight, a few pylons as well?Why not shut them all down in advance, and have the base station provide a stable supply?btw. I'm not hating on wind power here, I think they are great, I'm just looking at the problems in getting a mixed system working (without having to look green to a voting public)

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 07:43:30 am
content: Quote from: bitslice on October 04, 2016, 07:23:34 amSouth Australia is pretty big, assuming all of the wind farms are not in the same place then the storm wouldn't have affected them all at the same time.Why does the graph drop so suddenly seemingly prior to the outage?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 08:24:51 am
content: Speaking of no power, I just enjoyed two hours of blackout with nothing but candles, a glass of red wine, my phone for entertainment and my gas cooktop as a heater :-)

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 09:49:51 am
content: 29 Sep 2016Media Statement 3 - South Australia Update 10:30 am"The Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) advises that at 1618hrs Australian Eastern Standard Time (AEST) on Wednesday, 28 September 2016, a severe storm damaged transmission and distribution electricity assets in South Australia, leading to a state-wide power outage. Initial investigations have identified the root cause of the event is likely to be the multiple loss of 275 kilovolt (kV) power lines during severe storm activity in the state."http://aemo.com.au/@ bitslice and terrahertzI would take this "conspiracy" information from the energy regulator with a grain of salt though.It obviously isn't as trustworthy as other sites reporting on this from the USA, because it doesn't mention where Obama was born and it wasn't done in FrontPage.BTW that blip at 7:30 is from the Snowtown Wind farm which according to the map ( if you can believe it ) is between the supposed cable break and Adelaide.http://energy.anero.id.au/fossil-energy/2016/september/28a graph of fossil fuel generation at the time of the storm.edit: SA generation only.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 10:30:52 am
content: Interesting figures esp how relatively small the amount of fossil fuel generation is 100MW vs 1000MW or so via wind turbines.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 11:17:19 pm
content: Quote from: VK5RC on October 04, 2016, 10:30:52 amThose graphs have overlaid plots of multiple generations sets at a single power "station" which are tracking each other, so you need to see the plot including the total line which isn't included there.

author: Bigfoot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2016, 03:44:43 am
content: I remember as a kid living in Western Sydney back in the late 70's to early 80's we had a few brown outs over summer. I'm not sure if they were forced brownouts or forecast but it was a time when wall mounted aircon unit's started getting really popular and the grid couldn't handle the load. I don't remember experiencing it since .

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2016, 10:13:06 am
content: http://www.aemo.com.au/Media-Centre/-/media/BE174B1732CB4B3ABB74BD507664B270.ashxhere is the preliminary report about the incident from AEMO (Australian Energy Market Operator).Not exactly clear on what their role is here, but they some to be the ones.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2016, 09:27:46 am
content: Some context to that.https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/10/05/australian-electrical-system-operator-orders-wind-farms-to-cut-back-production-in-wake-of-blackout/Australian electrical system operator orders wind farms to cut back production in wake of blackoutOctober 5, 2016Ten South Australian wind farms told to limit generation after statewide electricity blackoutEdit on 20161015 to add:http://joannenova.com.au/2016/10/ontarios-electricity-carnage-a-train-wreck-electricity-costs-double-to-reduce-carbon-at-250ton/#more-51223Ontario’s electricity, “carnage”, “a train wreck”, electricity costs double to reduce carbon at $250/tonBoondoggle: How Ontario’s pursuit of renewables broke their electricity systemAs usual the comments are an interesting read too.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2016, 10:12:38 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on October 08, 2016, 09:27:46 amIts due to the special pricing in place from the market suspension, they don't want the wind farms dumping their cost free electricity onto the grid for credit and taking unfair advantage while the market is suspended and pricing is fixed.Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on October 05, 2016, 10:13:06 amThey manage the flows (and more importantly the accounting/reconciliation) of the market. Their sub second timeline shows the Belalie to Adelaide line cutting out and the wind at the end of it cutting off by having no load, then the interconnect from Adelaide to the Hornsdale and Snowtown wind farms being tripped and preventing them feeding the Adelaide load so they turned off too seconds later. Starved of feeders Adelaide continued demanding power and tripped out the VIC interconnector with an over capacity. As predicted its simply a failing of transmission and the source of energy at the generators was irrelevant.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2016, 10:16:08 am
content: We need less unreliable renewables or weather based power and more base load power generators. unreliable renewables should be kept to under 20% or at the same level as hard core environmentalists. as everybody is entitled to their own religion. their are many scientific theory's out there, just as global cooling was popular in the 1970s. before al gore, even so we in South Australia need 80% base load power generators so the electricity system is not a roulette wheel. IMO hydroelectricity is the best all round answer. even then the environmentalists do not like dams. anyone for fresh water!hydro is a two for one ,the Adelaide hills full of fresh water network of dams OR a nuclear power plant at port wakefield,

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2016, 12:09:22 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on October 08, 2016, 10:16:08 amWell if USA can have Trump then why can't we have jonovid?Damn those scientific theories, we can have unscientific ones!

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2016, 01:06:07 pm
content: Quoteit has been discussed and will continue to be discussed, especially among grid operators.A key performance measurement of a grid is its reliability. Typically that is performed by the low-cost generators (coal + nuclear for example) that cannot adjust quickly to load variations, augmented by the high (marginal) cost generators (gas firing, or turbines) who can get online on demand.Many (but not all) forms of renewables exhibit the opposite traits: they tend to be offline during critical times. From a financial terms, those are positive beta assets -> they amplify the volatility in the market place.Unfortunately, it is politically incorrect to have such conversations. the end result of that suppression is that the rate payers get hurt, like what we see here.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2016, 06:40:10 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 08, 2016, 06:16:24 pmGood luck and stay safe blueskull.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2016, 08:31:56 pm
content: Quotebetter known as politicians!

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2016, 11:23:48 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 08, 2016, 01:06:07 pmIts politically incorrect to present such biased views, not to discuss it. Open cycle gas turbines have the lowest upfront investment cost and roughly the lowest lifecycle energy cost under current numbers, almost equal with wind but the renewables have a much higher upfront cost and almost no marginal cost to operate. But thats only for Australia where OCGT is able to use the existing large scale gas network for its supply and gas prices are at historic lows per unit energy compared to the competition. The numbers fall all over the place when you look at other countries or worldwide:https://www.netl.doe.gov/File%20Library/Research/Energy%20Analysis/Life%20Cycle%20Analysis/Technology-Assessment-Compilation-Report.pdfhttp://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp0809/09rp09https://www.worldenergy.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/WEC_J1143_CostofTECHNOLOGIES_021013_WEB_Final.pdfOnshore wind and hydro are already competitive purely on a cost basis with existing coal, oil, and gas power sources in most regions around the world. As you note wind is a variable resource and needs backing with rapidly dispatchable sources of power, such as OCGT or Hydro. Short term profits are easier to sell to investors so the money has been going to OCGT, but its not superior from a technological or cost basis. Wide scale hydro storage has the ability to flatten out the electricity price since it can arbitrage with only a small efficiency loss, and is probably the only viable storage technology at the moment. As unpopular with the green nut jobs as ever, Hydro is the only way at the moment to make a viable power grid with a high mix of renewables and South Australia relies on its interconnector to access the east coasts hydro resources.South Australia backs its renewables with enough gas fired capacity to run with zero renewable generation for extended periods. They've settled on that mix and its working economically for them proving all the doubters like you wrong.Quote from: dannyf on October 08, 2016, 01:06:07 pmSource requiredThere are lots of hand waving descriptions of how renewables wont be generating when they're needed but not a lot of real world examples. Everyone has been rushing to shoehorn this grid collapse in South Australia into this hypothetical situation but its now certain that the generation sources were irrelevant to the failure of the grid.

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 01:09:58 am
content: WowYou must live in a different South Australia to me.Country if not worlds highest price for electricity alone torpeadoes your argument that it's economically viable.The interim report on the blackout pointed out that demand overloaded the interconnector.One gas plant was down for maintenance, and when the wind was lost we were unbalanced.Say what you like about renewable, but our states power grid is a crap design.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 01:21:34 am
content: Quote2nd that.sometimes, reality doesn't cooperate,

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 01:23:40 am
content: Quotewe also have a desalination water treatment plant. the only thing it does is the removal of money from citizens in recent years .

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 01:31:13 am
content: This thread still going? Australia still without power?Perhaps Australia needs more pylons, they have insufficient psi.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 01:43:14 am
content: Quote from: ludzinc on October 09, 2016, 01:09:58 amNot worlds highest by a fact of 2 or so, and running 10-20% ahead of the rest of Australia at the moment with predictions that it will return to a more level position soon:http://www.industry.gov.au/EnergyWhitePaperApril2015/index.htmlWhen you have such a low population density expecting to have wide availability of mains power the price goes up, how about asking some of your neighbours in NT or WA who are off grid about their power costs?Quote from: ludzinc on October 09, 2016, 01:09:58 amHow many times do we need to go over this? The wind power was disconnected from the supply due to failing transmission links, it didn't matter how they were generating power they couldn't supply it to the grid. There is no evidence at this point that wind unbalanced or destabilised the gird, it wasn't lost, it had nothing to power. If there is some evidence to support your claims you should point to it, but the detailed report from AEMO with the critical sub second logging and frequency data is all there for your inspection.Quote from: ludzinc on October 09, 2016, 01:09:58 amIt did ok for losing so many of its links, could happen anywhere. But renewable generation was nothing to do with the crap parts, and didn't contribute to the failure.

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 01:55:38 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 09, 2016, 01:43:14 amOnly because they are ramping up renewables and making their power just as crap as ours.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 01:56:03 am
content: QuoteThis thread andSolar Roadways BULLSHIT! are the forum time wasters . like watching blowflies crawling up a dunny wall

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 03:40:20 am
content: Quote from: jonovid on October 09, 2016, 01:56:03 amIn what way is encouraging conversation and differing view points a time waster? It's this kind of closed-mindedness and lack of meaningful contribution which annoys me about the majority of the population these days. People are quick to criticise from their arm chairs but offer no substance in return. This is part of the reason people are getting dumber. This topic may not interest you, but this is an electronics forum after all. If you choose not to contribute anything meaningful, that's cool, there are plenty of other time wasting topics or cat videos on Youtube choose from. Leave the intelligent conversation to the grown-ups.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 12:45:10 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 09, 2016, 03:40:20 amIt's widely known that the demand for higher internet bandwidth was driven by the global interest in cat videos, pictures of floof and mlem fill up more hard drive space than the last 20 years of astrophysical data.Without this level of investment in supporting technologies we'd still be using modems and floppies.Quantum computers would not be possible with (or without) a cat.Indeed the original inspiration for multi-mode fibre optic is credited to Nyan catThe cutting edge of data compression is now centred on the study of cats in boxes.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 04:38:43 pm
content: QuoteOk so with Australian diesel electric submarines to be built in Adelaide South Australia.depending on the politicians.the same knowledge and similar submarine technology can also be adapted for Off the national Grid megawatt battery backup systems. however this does not solve the problem of the cost & who pay's for it.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 05:13:54 pm
content: Distribute it? Why put it all in one place when you can put a little in every house and sell it as a UPS? For that matter, commercial and industrial sites would probably be even better since they often have UPS functionality to begin with.And then there's the idea of trying to adapt demand. There's a lot of opposition to electric companies turning off user owned equipment, so what about reverse it and turn things *on* (with electricity becoming "free" for that period) if the load is of the type that would reduce demand later? Hot water and dedicated freezers would be great candidates for adding a second setpoint on the thermostat. It can also be done with HVAC to an extent.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 06:12:40 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on October 09, 2016, 04:38:43 pmDon't know how those submarines are designed and priced, but the economic analysis for military equipment is very different than for commercial gear. For commercial gear it is something like how low can we make the cost and get the job done. For military gear it is get the job done. If reducing the cost has any negative affect on getting the job done just forget about it.Expertise from one side of that fence often doesn't help much on the other side of the divide.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 08:59:57 am
content: Quote from: jonovid on October 08, 2016, 10:16:08 amIf they can get under coal plant fuel cost why not?

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:23:48 am
content: I am no power engineer but cost isn't the only factor. To my thinking a major city power supply needs- to be easily controlled - e.g. half time in the grand final football. - everyone goes and makes cup of tea - demand sky rockets. Power line frequency fluctuation was one of the problems in the recent Sth Aust blackout. Solar has a problem of night time and clouds, wind is gusty. Good big power storage solutions in a flat country (i.e. no hydro- pumped storage) are currently not great.- to be reasonably close to the customers - a lot of the wind turbines are widely distributed - hundreds of kms of poles and wires to get knocked down in a gale - also in Sth Aust our nearest big base load source was 800km away via a 'link' . Our old power station was ~15km out of centre of town. Solar has real advantage here IF they could hold up the grid alone.- to be constantly available 24/7. We are increasingly reliant upon it.- reasonable pricein my mind, several technologies hold promise- solar- thermal - molten salt - steam power. Apparently can store quite a bit of energy for overnight.- distributed batteries - but some central control e.g. Tesla batteries but you let the electricity supplier have 25% of your storage - controlled remotely.It will be interesting to watch some recent experiments with one electricity provider trialling several hundred houses using the Tesla type battery and solar panel with central control , and going independently of grid.Rob

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 10:08:18 am
content: Quote from: VK5RC on December 27, 2016, 09:23:48 amHave you not read any of this thread? The frequency fluctuations were minor (no cascading failures) and entirely consistent with the expected operation of the grid, the failure wasonlyof transmission infrastructure.Quote from: VK5RC on December 27, 2016, 09:23:48 amWhich is exactly the uninformed opinion that keeps cropping up here, how about you read the work that actually studies possible solutions:http://energy.unimelb.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/1526587/Opps-for-pumped-hydro-in-Australia.pdfhttp://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.437.1231&rep=rep1&type=pdfSA was one of their focuses as a region thanks to its low population and cheap land, pumped hydro is still widely profitable in the region. Have a look at the economics and pumped hydro is still leading:http://energy.unimelb.edu.au/research/energy-systems/energy-storage-liquid-air-and-pumped-hydro

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 10:32:02 am
content: What a crock of shitI live in SA too and there have been warnings for years that the design of our grid was flawed.Now with Hazelwood closing in Vic what will be the next excuse when we are blacked out when wind can't deliver??

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 11:33:33 am
content: @Someone - interesting read re the low head e.g. 90m pumped hydro storage - the case study estimates cost at $1600M for 500MW - but could be very useful later for various technologies - Thermal salt didn't do too bad.The way I read the 'update' was that 6 rapidly occurring voltage changes (and I thought in an AC system that always involved a phase/frequency change) from 5 system faults (presumably power lines being blown down) lead to 9 of 13 wind farms not riding through this disturbance and coming off line - the interconnector then couldn't handle the load. I understand some changes have been made to 'ride through' values.https://www.aemo.com.au/Media-Centre/Update-to-report-into-SA-state-wide-power-outage.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 12:25:47 pm
content: Quote from: VK5RC on December 27, 2016, 11:33:33 amThe drop doesn't need to be huge to make pumped storage work. The bigger problem is usually getting a high pool and low pool sufficiently close together - i.e. you need a cliff like environment. A large horizontal separation leads to large pipe loses. This greatly limits the number of places where pumped storage is viable.There is great potential for massively increasing pumped storage from where it is today. Whether you can build enough to be the backbone of the storage in a largely renewable energy mix is another matter. Try reading "Without the Hot Air", and look at the assessments in that.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 12:32:54 pm
content: That change may bite them big time though, as they might blow up some long lead time switches and transformers by running them too long at overload or underfrequency and exceeding the ability of the cooling systems to dump the excess heat. Line current is only limited by the allowable sag between towers, and if you have done the correct maintenance and cleared the rights of way of trees then you can temporarily almost double the line current for a very short while. They will sag a lot more, will drip out some bitumen packing and otherwise be fine. Do it too long though and you wil find all those joints that are either oxidised or which were made less than correctly, mostly in a shower of sparks, a snapped off cable and a tower with some severe arc damage to it, plus a recloser in serious need of refacing of contacts.Long line with most of the load on it will result in the supply side generators all tripping out from overspeed, or islanding, and needing a black restart. Hope you still have the crews available that are trained how to do that, as they will have no communications after a few hours as cellular stations drop off, and after 24 hours the POTS networks as well.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 08:09:57 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 27, 2016, 12:25:47 pmAre the turbine and pump one in the same for pumped hydro with just some valving to change over from one to the other ?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 08:22:31 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 27, 2016, 08:09:57 pmI don't know if it is universally the case, but its common practice to use the same hardware for pumping and generation.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:46:38 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 27, 2016, 12:25:47 pmRead the links, they go into excruciating detail modelling the system and then mapping it onto Australian land surveys:Quote from: Someone on December 27, 2016, 10:08:18 amAccounting for pipe expense and complications you can still send the water a surprising distance without it becoming uneconomic.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 10:09:39 pm
content: Quote from: VK5RC on December 27, 2016, 11:33:33 amThey've added a lot more information to the detailed report, nice to see the entire event played out in just 6 seconds! Notably thats faster than any hydro could spin up

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 10:39:22 pm
content: South Australia has no power again but this time it's only two hours.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 10:54:27 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on December 27, 2016, 09:46:38 pmThey don't seem go into much modeling detail for operational performance. They focus very much on expected construction costs, by extrapolating from the known costs of other projects. As for pipe loses, I can't see any analysis at all. They cover pipe construction costs in detail, and there are references to 5km horizontal separation between the two pools. It appears they have taken 5km as a realistic maximum. That's in line with detailed pipe loss analyses I have seen elsewhere. Maybe I have missed something. When you are looking at pools from one to several km across, a 5km maximum separation means they are pretty close together.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 11:07:25 pm
content: Pipe frictionlosses are very real but can be somewhat eliminated if a large enough diameter pipe is used.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 11:27:39 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 27, 2016, 10:54:27 pmThey added the realistic constraints and still found huge amounts of untapped resources, its easy to find the sites and they're not precipitous cliffs. Yes, proximity is needed but low heads and gentle slopes are sufficient.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 12:14:10 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 27, 2016, 11:07:25 pmYou can only increase the pipe diameter so far before the system becomes impractical. Any reasonable assessment of the problem starts from a defined acceptable loss, and works out the pipes needed to achieve that. At some point the pipe becomes unrealistically large, and that's where you say the horizontal displacement has reached its reasonable limit.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 01:00:09 am
content: Quote from: coppice on December 28, 2016, 12:14:10 amThe pipes get enormous:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumut_Hydroelectric_Power_Station#Tumut_3_Power_Station5.6m in diameter each in an array of parallel feeds, and its possible to scale larger if you embed the pipe in the ground as a tunnel.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 01:10:32 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 27, 2016, 11:07:25 pmAt some point you'll get turbulence inside the pipe which increases the friction. There are formulas to calculate this.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 01:24:10 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 28, 2016, 01:10:32 amOnce laminar flow is lost things go south real fast. Large diameter pipe does lower the velocity but costs are non-linear with pipe sizing.