is a pocket sized Altair 8800 a brilliant idea - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 08:14:17 am
content: if anAltair 8800 Clone can run on 4 AA batteries!see in the video.then why not have somebody make a pocket sized pcb Altair 8800 with dip switchs & smd LEDs ?is there a market for a pocket sized Altair 8800 Clone product? as a pcb & parts electronics kit..as the full sized Altair 8800 clone may have problems with shipping costs!

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 08:41:09 am
content: That's actually a neat idea; don't think it has been done before?Using DIP switches may be pushing the miniaturization too far though. The switches were the main way of interacting with the Altair, and if you actually want to play with the mini clone, fumbling with DIP switches might just drive you nuts...But a single-PCB version, where you keep the front side clean except for mini toggle switches, LEDs and silkscreen to mimic the Altair panel, and place all active (SMD) components on the back, might work out nicely. An optional battery pack would be nice to make it a truly handheld gadget, but I would also be fine with a USB connector for power & serial interface.Edit: Something like these toggle switches would probably be the minimum to keep the replica usable:http://www.ebay.com/itm/25-pcs-MINI-TOGGLE-SWITCH-SPDT-ON-OFF-MOMENTARY-ON-FUJISOKU-ATE1H-2F3-10-1-/280888407062It would not look quite right though, with the switch bodies visible on the front. Unless you go for a second PCB, which just serves as a passive front panel (with holes and lettering).

author: jwm_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 09:17:04 am
content: I've always wanted to make one into a business card. Have not found suitable and toggle switches.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 09:50:55 am
content: Here are two earlier takes from others on this:http://hackaday.com/2017/03/14/the-altair-shield/Demonstrates that DIP switches are too small and awkward, IMO.http://hackaday.com/2015/04/12/altair-8800-front-panel-for-an-8080-emulator/This seems to be pretty much full size. Something like this, with smaller but discrete switches and LEDs (and with the computer actually on board) would probably work. But it needs an additional front panel to look right.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 10:07:34 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on July 05, 2017, 09:50:55 amI like to post concepts, to see if an idea has legs.I was thinking retroactive kits or educational toolsarduino like thing with binary code switches and LEDs

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 10:13:20 am
content: Back in the 70s, the first microcomputer I ever programmed used toggle switches for its primary method of program entry, although I'd also programmed other larger machines in a similar fashion.You become surprisingly swift and adept at keying in programs in such a manner, although it must be said it does become rather tedious and error prone when the code you're keying in through the switches becomes much more than a few dozen bytes.Trying to achieve the same thing with dip switches would make it a very painful experience, and it would become nothing more than an ornament very quickly. But then I suppose all these ultra retro devices are little more than ornaments anyway!The micro I learned on was programmed in hex rather than octal, although some of the older machines I programmed were in octal. After a while, you learn to naturally think in hex and binary, something that to this day remains a very useful key skill that I use all the time in my day to day work.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 10:16:11 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on July 05, 2017, 08:45:21 amI have to say I agree, just because you _can_ do something doesn't necessarily mean you should!

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 11:09:44 am
content: Quote from: jonovid on July 05, 2017, 10:07:34 amIf you style it like an Altair, and give it the Altair's limited abilities and user interface, I think the target audience would be retro-computing enthusiasts only. As an educational tool, even a fully-fledged Arduino has so much less to offer in terms of performance and user interface, compared to everyone's mobile phones, that it will only speak to a limited audience. And the Arduino offers a friendly and pretty powerful development environment to support it, and many off-the-shelf shields to make it do "cool" stuff.I think proposing an Altair clone as an educational tool for e.g. kids to learn computing is taking them too many steps back in time. This would severely limit the motivation and hence success. You might as well start with a tube-based CW receiver as an introduction to electronics.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 12:38:36 pm
content: I've laid one out in Eagle to see what I _could_ make if I wanted to put the effort into it. Someone pointed out z80pack which looks like it can handle single stepping but I haven't had a chance to look at it too much yet. 18.5cm x 7.5cm. Yes, I wouldn't actually use toggle switches, but nice flat momentary ones with a light below to indicate if they are on/off.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 12:41:43 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on July 05, 2017, 12:38:36 pmLooks neat, and just large enough to be actually usable!What style of switches did you plan on using?

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 12:42:40 pm
content: I edited my original message when you posted because I forgot to mention that - momentary switches with a LED underneath them to indicate their state (on/off).

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 12:54:37 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on July 05, 2017, 12:42:40 pmThanks Alan!I opted for the same approach with momentary buttons and LEDs in the LGP-30 replica I made last year. (http://www.e-basteln.de/lgp30. Qualifies as "ultra-retro computing", as mentioned by Howard, and probably also as "mostly an ornament"...)Actually I am still looking for switches which are a bit easier to source than the Diptronics ones I found. Would your switches of choice have the option of adding a transparent cap with a label insert?

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 01:03:16 pm
content: eblaster that is a fantastic project; good job!!I was actually planning to use simple EVQ-Q2F03W switches like I did on my microEnigma project seen here - they don't offer any sort of illumination solution so for this I was thinking of just placing an LED close by.usage:design thoughts:

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 02:44:14 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on July 05, 2017, 08:45:21 amI'd vote no too, and I'm a big retro computer fanboy.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 03:42:22 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 05, 2017, 02:44:14 pmlooks like hackaday has eaten this lunch.

author: cjs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 04:25:33 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on July 05, 2017, 10:13:20 amWhich is precisely why someone should build a teeny tiny paper tape reader.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 04:54:36 pm
content: My very first computer was a COSMAC 1802 board, which had a HEX keypad and some 7 segment displays, to load the program.One small step above the toggle switch and discrete LED displays.

author: rfeecs
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 05:11:53 pm
content: Lots of Altair 8800 projects out there:Altair clone from the video, uses a PIC24:http://altairclone.com/YouTube channel for the Altair clone:https://www.youtube.com/user/deramp5113/videosAn actual reproduction Altair 8800 and other vintage reproductions:http://www.altairkit.com/A small kit clone using an AVR:http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?cat=18A front panel emulator in a smaller case:http://www.galacticstudios.org/mini-altair-8800-pc/A single board wire-wrap job using an 8085 with a floppy disk emulator, but no lights or switches:http://mini-altair.tripod.com/

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 05:13:34 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on July 05, 2017, 01:03:16 pmThanks Alan!I love your microEnigma! It looks just "right", without pretending to be the real thing. I have always struggled with Enigma replicas which try to very closely replicate the form factor and appearance, but contain electronic hardware -- these feel "fake" to me.In contrast, your version captures the benefits of the electronic implementation (small and simple) while being honest about it; and at the same time it captures the spirit of the Enigma with its pushbutton keys, black front panel and oak box. Beautiful and elegant!

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 06:07:27 pm
content: Decades ago I've run an Altair 8800 with acoustic-coupled modem, this is crazyWithout a floppy drive, you can't run Wordstar. Massive S-100 card for 4K SRAM of 2101's.Have I been drinking too much

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 06:19:28 pm
content: I'm a bit surprised there isn't more love for this idea. You can run CP/M on it and you can virtualize thousands of floppies on a single SDCARD. And best of all, you have that old school blinky lights control panel, I mean don't we all still love the blinky lights?

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 07:01:20 pm
content: Would this be an SMT implementation of the Altair 8800, or FPGA to get the size down? I see 3.3V low power Z180 offerings.I wonder how many people have inputted a program using toggle switches, or even a hex keypad. I used to go crazy after about 200 entries.The you hit RUN and because you had one bad op-code typo, it scrambles SRAM and you get to do it again. Or a kid hits the STOP switch for fun.Quote from: schmitt trigger on July 05, 2017, 04:54:36 pmI still have my Quest COSMAC SuperElf. Didn't get far with the CDP1802 as it has a martian architecture I could never get figure out.

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 07:12:00 pm
content: I spent a summer in '76 building an 8080 based computer (all point to point soldered) with my own version of a 'bus'. Home made all from scratch using the intel 8080 tech manual as my reference. First rendition of the 8080 machine I wired (again all point to point soldered) 2k bytes of sram (2102 rams). Had front panel switches and LEDs for address/data etc. All hand built.Then wrote and hand assembled a monitor program for it in the new year and then hand keyed it into an imsai box (at uni where I was studying) that had a eprom programmer and burnt the code into a 2708.Was great fun and a learning experience (esp since I was in the backwaters of Perth, W.Aust). $50 was the cost of just the 8080 (1976 dollars...) + more $$ for the clock chip and system controller chip.Eventually I had a wirewrap z80 based machine with 64k of dram running cpm. Started with a hacked up cassette unit for storing/loading programs and then moved to 5" floppies and eventually 8" (double sided double density - wow...). Finally a 20meg HD (full sized 5")Anyhow, yes, it was a major learning experience in designing and building from scratch (not kits other than later on using off the shelf s100 floppy controllers and graphics cards) various cpm computers and getting the bios running etc. All that experience aided in my first job and on from there.But, would I bother with an 8080/z80/etc retro machine today - no chance. Can't see the point, too many fun projects with modern chips and functionality. If I wanted an imsai/altair retro, I may as well just write a full simulator with blinking lights and virtual switches running on a touch screen windows machine (or android tablet/phone)But then I'm not one that is enamored with the 'good old days' of home computing...cheers,george.

author: cjs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 07:20:34 pm
content: Quote from: georges80 on July 05, 2017, 07:12:00 pmOf course not. These days you'd do the same thing with something likeFrom NAND to Tetris. Still learning the same things, though, except for really understanding hardware debugging.I think that every software developer should have at least some degree of that sort of experience that helps you understand what's going on in all those layers underneath your Ruby on Rails project or whatever. Though I understand why a lot of people don't agree with that opinion.

author: chrisldavis
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 09:51:12 pm
content: Quote from: rfeecs on July 05, 2017, 05:11:53 pmHere's another clone:http://www.altairduino.com

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 11:09:45 pm
content: I'd have thought a large part of retro-tech interest, is appreciation of the original appearance and user-interaction. Which was frustrating enough, without completely ruining it with tiny DIP-switches etc. If anyone wanted a 'pocket work-alike', then just do it as a software app for phones/tablets.What I'd like to do: A physical full-size PDP-8 and/or -11 front panel, designed to hang on a wall like a painting. But using an FPGA on that one PCB to emulate the entire machine. So the 'PDP-11' wall hanging would work just like the original boatanchor. Maybe with a USB or uSD slot for files emulating the old tape drives and platter HDDs. Serial ports for either a real teletype, or PC emulation of one.Biggest problem would be re-engineering and manufacturing the paddle switches mechanics. They should feel the same as the originals, and have the same '60s style colours. But for a thin wall hanging, the switch mechanics behind the fascia would be completely different. Something with tiny magnets in the paddle base, and reed switches on the PCB perhaps. More reliable that way too.I know I'm never going to get around to doing this. Feel free to steal the idea.

author: rfeecs
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 11:28:21 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on July 05, 2017, 11:09:45 pmI think I've seen this somewhere:PDP-11:http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbonePDP-8:https://www.hackster.io/obsolescence/pidp-8-a-pdp-8-minicomputer-on-raspberry-pi-8a7b5a

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2017, 12:36:27 am
content: Quote from: rfeecs on July 05, 2017, 11:28:21 pmGreat links, thanks!The first one seems to imply using an actual original panel? Did I read it wrong? If I could find a complete panel it would probably come attached to a whole machine.Second one is cool, the guy has kits to build replica PDP-8 panels. Looks nice, affordable, but still too thick.The retro terminal emulator he mentions is gorgeous.https://github.com/Swordfish90/cool-retro-termI wish there was a PC version.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2017, 05:48:47 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on July 06, 2017, 12:36:27 amYes, the PiDP-8 is neat -- and it has been quite a success; Oscar has shipped well in excess of 1000 kits over the past couple of years. It's not full scale but 2/3 of the original, by the way. Just right for my taste: It does not try to "fake" the real thing, but still allows for a realisitic interaction.For wall mounting, you could build yourself a custom frame with much lower profile; less than 2cm I would say. The actual front panel is just a PCB with 5mm LEDs and miniature switches. You would have to find room for the Raspberry Pi (which runs the simulator) above or below the control panel; connecting it with a ribbon cable instead of the standard piggyback arrangement should work fine.But I am not sure how practical a wall-mounted version would be if you actually want to play with it. You can easily connect a terminal via SSH and WLAN, but would still have to stand in front of the panel to manipulate the switches.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2017, 08:00:45 am
content: Quote from: cjs on July 05, 2017, 04:25:33 pmChicken and egg: you'll need a teeny tiny paper tape punch too! (My first programs were indeed written on paper tape).

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2017, 08:02:12 am
content: Love the aesthetics, but not a fan of the bodge mains wiring!(Keep an RCD/ELCB/GFI handy, or do it properly.)Same feeling with 70's minicomputers and micro's -- ditch the DIP switches.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2017, 08:39:49 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on July 06, 2017, 08:02:12 amYou lost me there -- which project are you referring to?

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2017, 08:44:44 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on July 06, 2017, 08:02:12 am

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2017, 08:53:02 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on July 06, 2017, 08:44:44 amYes, I read that alright. But which project discussed here includes any mains wiring at all? The proposed pocket sized Altair, microEnigma, my LittleGP-30, and the PiDP-8 are all 5V powered?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2017, 10:33:53 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on July 06, 2017, 10:17:09 amAh, thanks. Yep, I had stopped watching that video when it moved from the Altair PCB in an empty box to the PC part, which is not really what the OP and this thread were discussing.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2017, 11:38:43 am
content: Ugh. Those things were ridiculous when they were first made. I bet most of the kits sold were never even completely assembled.Only three years later you could get an Apple ][ with proper keyboard, TV/monitor display, and most importantly as many floppy disk drives as you could afford :-) (up to 10 or so anyway). And a Pascal compiler a year after that.

author: idpromnut
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 06, 2017, 12:21:36 pm
content: Quote from: cjs on July 05, 2017, 04:25:33 pmOnly slightly crazy... I bet someone could build a "bootstrapper" style tape reader with one of those led/photodiode modules off a printer or some such. I believe tape drive readers were originally "bootstrapped" in a similar fashion (how to you load the software to run the tap drive without the tape drive?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2017, 12:29:07 pm
content: Quote from: idpromnut on July 06, 2017, 12:21:36 pmThere is a classic cottage industry/homebrew reader from the 70's out there, well documented and ready to build your own if you fancy:http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/OAE80_Reader/OAE80_Index.htm

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2017, 01:17:45 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on July 06, 2017, 12:37:28 pmNo, I'm not aware of a tape punch counterpart. I think it was quite common to actually buy software on paper tapes and just have the need to read it, e.g. to fire up your assembler. Or you had to know someone with a proper teletype and paper tape equipment to copy a tape or manually punch a tape with your own program. Storing your own programs or data ad hoc was not supported, unless you were the proud owner of a teletype (or a compact cassette recorder, of course)...

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2017, 03:30:39 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on July 06, 2017, 11:38:43 amI think you'd be wrong about the completion percentage. As I recall, it was pretty simple to build.I still have mine but over the years I had to move to an external power supply and I built my own floppy controller from a Western Digital 1771 controller chip. I did quite a bit of work creating BIOS code for other machines including the Apple II. In fact, I wrote some BIOS code to run CP/M on a Microsoft Z80 Softcard that fit into the Apple motherboard.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-80_SoftCardI also wrote some code to use early hard drives on Apple IIs. A 5 MB drive cost about $5k... Same story for the early IBM PCs - before IBM added code for external drives.I'm in a quandry... Do I restore the Altair to its original dual floppy configuration (I still have the floppies) or do I just hide a Compact Flash inside the case. A few years back I got CP/M running on one of the newer 50 MHz Z80 chips with a full complement of CP/M drives (16 logical volumes). At 50 MHz, CP/M screams!Should I scrap the 2101 power hog memory boards in favor of a single 64kx8 static RAM? Can I still buy S100 wirewrap boards? Apparently so!Should I scrap the 8080 and use a 50 MHz Z80?I'm leaning toward restore because I have other Z80 machines that range from a dual floppy CompuPro 6 MHz machine to a 50 MHz FPGA implementation and that 50 MHz Z80 chip.Still thinking about it! I see these Altair machines on eBay from time to time going for a few thousand dollars. I just looked and I didn't see one.I have been vacillating for years. I just can't bring myself to trashing the original design. I could, however, see creating a combined RAM, ROM, Compact Flash board.I still have my TeleVideo 950 terminal and my Tektronix 4006 Graphics Display Terminal.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2017, 04:22:58 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 06, 2017, 03:30:39 pmI would be clearly in favor of restoring the original configuration, in all aspects you mention. In my mind, the whole point would be to fully restore the original feeling of the machine -- including its limited speed, limited memory, floppy noise and all!If you want a screaming fast CP/M machine, I am sure there are nice emulators running under Linux or Windows. Replacing the original circuits with modern, upgraded ones would put you on a slippery slope, which ends with gutting it entirely and installing a windows PC inside...

author: lapm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2017, 08:26:53 pm
content: Well you could always try osing small 1.8mm led for indication, switches might be more problematic...http://www.tme.eu/fi/katalog/optoelektroniikka_100327/#id_category=112896&page=1&s_field=niski_prog&s_order=ASC

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2017, 08:38:34 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on July 06, 2017, 01:17:45 pmI think most people from that micro era used a Teletype Model 33 for reading/punching tapes if they could afford one. Very simple to rig up a DIY tape reader with 8 channels of led/photo-transistor plus using the sprocket holes to gate the data to output drivers plus strobe, you could even just use manual pulling of the tape through the reader so no motor drive needed.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2017, 08:45:37 pm
content: Quote from: retrolefty on July 06, 2017, 08:38:34 pmYes. That's exactly what the 1970's OAE80 tape reader I posted above is/does. Manual type "drive", 9 phototransistors for 8 data bits plus the sprocket hole for sync. Plus surprisingly generous electronics with an NE555 for each channel.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2017, 11:40:42 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on July 06, 2017, 12:34:22 pmNo. I thought as much when I got my copy of Byte Magazine Volume 00 Number 04 with article "Assembling an Altair", and it was thoroughly confirmed well before the end of the decade, when you had your choice of TRS-80, Pet, or Apple all clearly superior, and the Apple especially so.I was tempted at one point (about the same time as the Altair) to try building an Electronics Australia 2650 kit. but saw sense before I wasted money :-) The SC/MP machines were also clearly ridiculous, at the time.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2017, 12:49:58 am
content: Back in the day when I was a teenager I was semi-acquainted with a kind of strange person who was friends with the two Steves who developed the first Apples and this guy owned several of them and gave a series of demos over a period of years as it progressed. The two Steves actually attended one of these demos and everyone who was there if they had cash could have bought one of the very first Apples on the spot. It was way out of my price range. I don't know how much it would be worth today, probably a lot of money. That night after it was over as it was really late I bummed a ride from them back to Beth the flutists apartment where I was planning to sleep - actually rode several blocks in their van with them and all their computers which were in open static bags stuck in cardboard boxes sideways. (from the Bowery area to around 23rd St.) A typical Apple One setup was just a PCB with a cassette deck and a keyboard. I dont remember how they interfaced the cassette deck to the PCB. They used a plain cassette deck to load programs and I am pretty sure they used a TV set as the display. I'll always remember that ride vividly because the smell in their van seems to have had the effect of enhancing my memory of the evening. I'll leave it at that. (Edit: Here I am actually talking about the truly horrible smell ofrancid chocolate milk, which they both evidently drank a lot of and their van smelled very strongly of it.)

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2017, 03:42:38 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on July 07, 2017, 12:49:58 amHey, hey, hey!

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2017, 11:05:02 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on July 07, 2017, 12:49:58 amI meet the two steves in 1976 in Cotati, Ca. at Liza Loop's place. She was an early computer adopter for education and the steves wanted to show off their new apple-1 to area enthusiasts.I hung around for about two hours checking out their hardware. I first talked to Jobs and asked him why they selected the 6502 chip over intel or other's offerings. He rambled off for 5 mins about how they thought it had more future capabilities, etc etc. I then went and asked the Woz the same question.He told me it was the cheapest micro he could get at them time, a $25 special offer they gave at a local San Francisco area computer show. Anyway I wasn't all that impressed with them or their creation, and didn't think it would amount to anything. Shows what my opinion is worth.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 12:59:23 am
content: Liza Loop is a great name! She must be Infinite's mom.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 02:40:20 pm
content: Fussing around with z80pack, I finally got it to work on the windows platform last night. I kept getting errors about how it couldn't open the panel.conf file, but replacing the cygwin1.dll with a different one solved the problem and it finally runs. The control panel they have isn't exactly easy to operate, as you have to click it in fairly specific spots to activate the switches, but it seems to work. The good thing though is that I have something that is running and source code so when I get time, I can try to compile it and test it with a test windows form I made (I attached it, it isn't super pretty, but will do the job for testing). If I can get that to work, I might try to port it to an STM32 for the board I had above to see if I can get that working...