When driving and mobile/car phones were legal - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 04:05:16 am
content: This is more of a brain dump than anything. But today I was reminiscing about the "car phone". As I was growing up, parents of a few friends had them. I had fond memories of the initialisation tone that was heard when the car ignition was turned on (I think it was an NEC phone hard wired to the car with the handset beside the driver's seat).Use of mobile phones by the driver while driving were introduced in Australia in 2012, which wasn't that long ago. Now, you can be caught and fined using a phone not only by police, but by automated "mobile phone detection" cameras fitted to overhead bridges, signs etc...Don't get me wrong, I agree with these laws and methods as some people find it hard enough to drive without using a phone.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 04:43:39 am
content: I doubt they were legal back then. Certainly weren't here, the specific law is just to drum it into the heads of those too stupid to operate either safely.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 06:06:19 am
content: They were legal in the USA until relatively recently, maybe 10 years ago? Back in the early days of mobile phones they were so expensive that very few people had them and it wasn't enough of a problem for anyone to make it illegal. Also in the analog days a mobile phone was just a phone, there were no games or social media or other crap. Once it got so that everyone had one and the capabilities of the devices grew the number of accidents caused by distracted driving rose dramatically. Personally I think it should be a criminal offense if you cause any sort of accident while driving distracted, I see it so often and have nearly been run down multiple times.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 06:25:23 am
content: Quote from: james_s on October 31, 2020, 06:06:19 amQuoteDates back to 1930 at least. The US really takes a while to catch up.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 06:42:52 am
content: Personally, I am all in favour of the laws. This, perhaps, is the most compelling reason:Quote from: Halcyon on October 31, 2020, 04:05:16 amThe thing I suspect, though, as being the most significant factor in the risk profile is SMS. You have to take your eyes off the road to read them - and, heaven forbid, type!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 07:15:02 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 31, 2020, 06:25:23 amI don't know if you go out of your way to be a dick or are just so socially inept that you can't help it but it is rare that I see a comment from you that does not come off as snide, looking down your nose at those inferior foreigners.Is that law used to charge people with a crime? Or is it just something you get a ticket for? "An offense" is not necessarily a criminal offense. Going 5 mph over the speed limit is an offense, but it's not something that will get you arrested and charged with a crime.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 07:25:36 am
content: Quote from: james_s on October 31, 2020, 07:15:02 amAnd how often do you think I see the proud Americans in the land of the free and most powerful country in the world lording it over everyone? Perhaps I am socially inept, but I actually wasn't trying to cause offence (but people are really happy to take it!). Mostly just elaborating on my earlier post and a bit surprised there's nothing similar (apparently) in the US..QuoteIt can be treated as a criminal offence, yes. Depends on the situation, any history, if an actual accident occurs it's more likely.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 07:31:28 am
content: Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't take personal offence to a comment that is really only relevant to political and bureaucratic inertia.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 07:47:14 am
content: Using one hands free in holder is perfectly legal here in NZ.Siri makes it even easier....if you care to adopt the technology.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 09:08:56 am
content: About the only thing defensible about the mobile detection cameras is that they are generally mounted in busy areas or intersections where you probably shouldn't be using your phone as you travel through them. When they are on open main roads, they're usually quite obvious.Police behaviour is less defensible as they will typically use motorcycle police to trawl up and down stopped lines of cars at traffic lights looking for someone who is checking their phone.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 10:40:17 am
content: In the UK The Road Vehicle (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 was updated in 2003 with regulation 110 "Mobile Telephones". Between 1986 and 2003 the law was a bit sketchy. Old copies of the ARRL or RSGB handbooks might shed a bit of light on the subject from a historical perspective.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 10:50:48 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 31, 2020, 04:05:16 amThey were in place by 1999 in several jurisdictions, NSW, ACT, VIC, and SA, at least. Care of a nationalisation of the road rules.Given the narrow period of use of car phones in Australia, we can guess your age pretty well.

author: pardo-bsso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 01:37:07 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on October 31, 2020, 06:42:52 amTyping is easier when your phone has physical buttons, albeit a bit hard on the thumb sometimes

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 01:58:55 pm
content: Here, the law forbidding mobile phone use except handfree is from as early as 2002, but we haveabsolutely zeroenforcement for the law. With some of the slowest speed limits on the planet, speeding laws are strictly enforced (for simple revenue purposes; theofficialpolice stance is that youshouldbe speeding a bit to generate budget for them; which makes complete sense, if you speed enough to generate 200 EUR ticket/camera, you are following the standard European limits!), everything else goes, including texting and talking to the phone.Very good it's forbidden, but I'm even more concerned about people driving brain completely shut down. Just today, someone ran red lights: I pressed the horn down some 10 seconds straight, while looking directly at their face (a 50yo male). No reaction whatsoever; no head movement, no facial change. They were just driving in an autonomous droid "follow the previous car" mode. Not speeding, no "reckless driving", not driving a high-performance BMW. These are people who normally drive under speed limits, in the middle of the road (law clearly says: on the right end of the lane, period), blocking the usual traffic. When I overtake them and switch high beams on at exact correct moment, it takes some 5-10 seconds of reaction time for them to turn high beams off, if that happens at all. Because their brain is shut down. Ifanythingunexpected happens, it's a 100% surely accident.Officially, they are the role models because they drive at 70 km/h max. This is very funny when we have a road which would be 110 km/h inany other European country, including our neighbor Sweden, but we have the 80 km/h limit furher taken down to 70 km/h by such white Kias. It becomes even funnier when a few semi trucks get behind them and cannot overtake. Then your only option is to participate in the massive jam getting even more massive, or start "driving recklessly".

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 02:26:34 pm
content: Modern cars have built-in mobile phones for telemetry, OTA updates and other fancy stuff. I wonder when car manufacturers will add phone calls.PS: I'm using the bluetooth based hands-free feature of my car stereo.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 11:36:11 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 31, 2020, 10:50:48 amAhh yes, you are correct. They were strengthened in 2012. Still, I can still remember when there was no such law prohibiting handheld phones.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 11:52:36 pm
content: Is it still the case in the uk that its illegal to use a phone whilst driving but a 2 way radio is fine

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 12:17:45 am
content: I think back then they were probably treated the same way as a CB radio... and probably outputted about the same amount of watts too! lol And people worry about 5g.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 01:15:36 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on November 01, 2020, 12:17:45 amCBs only have 5 watts output, using AM, or 12 watts PEP using SSB.The UHF FM CBs in Oz are 5 Watts FM, so I assume the 27MHz FM ones which were used in most European countries would be similar.Cellphones, CBs, ham radios, taxi radios, etc have one thing in common.They spend a lot more time in receive mode than they do in transmit, so their duty cycle is very much less than a broadcasting station.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 01:25:53 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 31, 2020, 11:52:36 pmThe big advantage of a 2 way radio (or a bluetooth connected phone), is that you don't have to look at them to use them.What freaks me out are the huge central displays on modern car dashboards.Their bright garish colour schemes just beg you to look at them.Add to that, the transfer of some control functions to the touchscreen function on these, & they are a recipe for distraction & disaster.If you want to select between sources for your in car entertainment system, for instance, you usually have to do it on the screen.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 03:01:30 am
content: Quote from: madires on October 31, 2020, 02:26:34 pmPrestige and sports vehicles have had this in various forms since the 90's including the ability to make calls. Lifespan of a mobile network technology/frequency pairing averages around 12 years in Australia, cars last much longer.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 07:00:33 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 31, 2020, 06:06:19 amLast winter, I heard an almighty crash on a nearby road... I went for a walk, and found a BMW driven into a telephone pole, a total write-off. The driver's explanation sounded a little rehearsed... "the snow on the side of the road caught the car and forced it off the road"... I thought, you forgot to add "while I was busy on my phone!"

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 08:53:16 pm
content: The funny thing is, that in germany, the legislation was recently expanded to *any* multimedia device with a touchscreen.Technically, that would mean you cannot use the touchscreen of a tesla *at all* while "ready to drive".Honestly though i have no idea how "ready to drive" would be defined with a electric car, with an ICE i means while the motor is running.And, while i have not yet driven a tesla, or any other car with such a "touch heavy" user interface, i tend to agree. I am already annoyed by the touchscreen to change radio stations of a VW Golf.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 12:41:12 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on November 01, 2020, 07:00:33 pmI think it could also be a failing in driver education.We had, a few years back, in my part of Oz, a slew of cases where people inadvertently got the kerbside wheels off the sealed road & onto the "soft shoulder".They were so paranoid about this happening that they jerked the wheel violently to get back on the road, lost control, & crashed.Many years ago, when I was first licenced, there were a lot of country roads where the sealed part was quite narrow, with a metre or so of gravel either side (there were also many km of unsealed road).If you drove outside the cities, if you met a car travelling in the opposite direction, you had to partially go onto this unsealed part.The advice was to slowly steer onto & off the "soft shoulder" in such situations.Obvious the same sort of advice worked if you drifted off the sealed road for any other reason.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 02:15:37 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on November 02, 2020, 12:41:12 amThis particular road was very narrow and there are no shoulders - the speed limit is 25. The only way to lose control of a car on this stretch is by having your nose buried in your phone!That said, I agree about lacking driver education. Back in the day, my instructor forced me to do all kinds of difficult things - backing up around corners while staying close to the kerb, reversing longs distances slaloming between cones, etc. etc. - he felt that if you couldn't confidently control the basic operation a car, you shouldn't be on the road! One of the teachers I remember fondly...

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 07:06:38 am
content: The topic of driving education reminds me of something that scares me a bit.Driving educatin in germany isquite thorough, compared to some other countries. You need several hours theoretical instructions with a multiple choice test at the end, but also a certain number of driving hours with a driving instructor, some of these have to be on the Autobahn, some have to be in darkness.I have heard of several reports of driving instructors, that many students cannot properly concentrate on driving, because they can't use their mobile phones. They get fidgety and nervous. Take a break somewhere, and the first thing out is the smart phoneI dont think it would be all that difficult nowadays for a modern smart phone to detect if is being used by the driver while driving. A quick picture with both cameras to see if you are in the drivers seat, combined with info from the GPS if you are moving or not. If the phone is coupled to the car, as gets increasingly more common, that would be even easier.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 07:37:17 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on November 01, 2020, 01:25:53 amYep! I have a car with quite a large LCD (albeit it's not touchscreen, all the basic functions have a discreet button, including a telephone keypad for dialling/typing).But my entire instrument cluster is also an LCD display. No matter what car I drive, I usually have to turn the brightness down to minimum just so the many lights don't impair my night vision in rural areas.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 02:53:45 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on November 02, 2020, 07:06:38 amPhones need to be better integrated with cars, so they respond to voice commands, etc. - Come to think of it, I'm sure I had a cell phone in the 90's that could dial a number based on a voice command... what happened???

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 11:19:38 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on November 02, 2020, 02:53:45 pmThey ought to be integrated such that they are completely disabled when the car is in motion. Study after study has shown that it's the act of being absorbed in a conversation or other task that is not driving that is dangerous, not the physically holding your phone in your hand part. Something has changed dramatically in society in just the last 20 years or so in that people have become so addicted to instant gratification. It used to be if someone wasn't at home it was just expected to not be able to reach them that instant. If I'm driving my car I don't answer my phone, whoever is trying to reach me can wait until I get to my destination.Integrating phones into cars is a bad idea for technological reasons too IMO. Phones become obsolete in just a few years, meanwhile a reasonably good quality car should last 20 years or more. We're already starting to see a lot of not so old cars with a bunch of hopelessly obsolete integrated technology. I wish they would bring back the standard DIN slot which makes it possible to select a head unit that has whatever features you want and stick it in there, upgrading any time you choose.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 11:45:02 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 02, 2020, 11:19:38 pmWhile those views might well be appropriate to the casual private phone user they certainly aren't to the business user where in the last 40 years mobile phones have saved them innumerous costs and time.Those that just drive to and from work not so much however those out and about everyday as part of their job the cellphone is now an indispensable part of their tool kit.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 12:26:26 am
content: Quote from: tautech on November 02, 2020, 11:45:02 pmSince it makes money they don't mind the expense of either:a) a more expensive car that has built in bluetooth integration (pretty common now) and turning it over before its obsoleteorb) retrofitting a high quality hands free system to the vehicle

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 12:31:58 am
content: Quote from: Someone on November 03, 2020, 12:26:26 amOf course.However it's surprising how many you see with BT earbuds and they like as they are legally acceptable as hands free here.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 12:34:59 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 02, 2020, 11:19:38 pmSome people (including me) don't even like talking with passengers when I'm driving, unless it is a cruise on a wide open road... But I have never felt that taking a phone call on the car speakers has been a problem as long as I am on an easy cruise on the highway and not in some complicated urban traffic scenario. If the circumstances don't permit it, I don't answer the phone... driving the car gets the priority!I recently updated a double-DIN slot radio in a 12 year old car which is solid and beautiful in every other respect. But I know what you mean, there are some models that have gone overboard with integration to the point where it is probably impossible to update them. One might suspect this is intentional, it is obvious that manufacturers are strictly sticking to the official specification of 10 years / 100K miles for a car.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 03:47:56 am
content: Quote from: tautech on November 02, 2020, 11:45:02 pmI don't care, that is not my problem. My (and everyone else's) safety is more important than the increased profit someone may be able to earn if they jabber on the phone while behind the wheel instead of focusing on driving. I was in a serious accident several years ago caused by someone who was absorbed in their conversation and not watching what was in front of their 75,000 pound tanker truck. I have had several other close calls, both in my car and as a pedestrian due to self absorbed dickwads who thought their phone conversation was more important than paying attention to where they're going. If a person simply must be on the phone while travelling by car on crowded urban roads then they should hire a driver. When I was still commuting to an office I rode the bus and I would see people every single day yakking on the phone while drifting around in their lane on the highway and it has gotten to the point where I'm just fed up. Screw them, driving is a privilege, those who can't or won't do it responsibly need to be given a very expensive lesson, it should be dealt with the way we deal with drunk driving.