Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2020, 10:49:50 am
content: Coin cells (button batteries) have killed or seriously injured toddlers who swallow them. New laws are coming in to Australia which enforce button battery compartments to be sealed with a screw and packaging of the batteries to be improved. Great idea. But I fear that non-compliant product will still be imported in via eBay, just like the non-compliant radios and mains powered devices are today. Still it is a start. The article says it is a world first. It would be good if other countries followed.Audio here...https://www.3aw.com.au/australia-introduces-button-battery-standards-to-put-an-end-to-terrible-deaths-and-lifelong-injuries/The dangers explained...https://www.productsafety.gov.au/products/electronics-technology/button-batteries

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2020, 06:37:18 pm
content: A couple days ago I noticed that you can buy coin cells which are coated in a bitterant to make them taste bad.

author: ratatax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2020, 07:09:31 pm
content: "one child a month"Yeah so who cares. Natural selection. If we needed to prevent any misuse of any product everything would be forbidden, even spoons.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2020, 07:10:24 pm
content: What happened to the common sense of keeping small stuff that can be potentially swallowed away from the reach of your toddler? Are they going to legislate that also medicines and magnets must be kept in a locked safe (both can kill if swallowed) and clothing irons and hot water are to be totally verboten if there is a toddler in the household? What about knives? Do they also have to be all dull if there are kids around?This is a pretty ridiculous answer to this problem, IMO.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2020, 07:16:51 pm
content: Pretty sure that screws on toy battery compartments (or at least a requirement to need a tool to open) has been in the CE requirements for years, so I'd expect a lot of manufacturers to already be doing it. I like the bitterant idea though.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2020, 10:15:17 pm
content: Quote from: ratatax on December 22, 2020, 07:09:31 pmProviding it is not YOUR child. The figures do not state the prevalence of injuries, which are much more common.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2020, 10:23:27 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on December 22, 2020, 07:16:51 pmWhen I was a kit, I used to chew the back parts of the pens. My parents tried to dip them in the pepper water. I personally liked them more that wayGenerally, It is not the worst idea to have toys not have small pars that are easy to take apart.Yes, non-compliant stuff will still be imported, not much you can do here.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2020, 10:25:07 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on December 22, 2020, 07:10:24 pmMany adults are basically stupid and ignorant, as is evident by the behaviour of many people to the spread of COVID, especially in certain countries who think it is their constitutional right to do whatever they want.Coin cells are particularly bad...

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2020, 11:59:04 pm
content: Quote from: ratatax on December 22, 2020, 07:09:31 pmNah, if would be a different story, if it would be 12 year olds.There is a stage in children's development, where they experience the world by putting things into their mouth. It's better at feeling things than their hands. Freud and stuff.Same way, I slow down and be careful about birds and cats on the road. They have no idea about the danger.I care less about jaywalkers and cyclists who are breaking the rules. They all know it well what they are doing.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 01:18:28 am
content: Quote from: janoc on December 22, 2020, 07:10:24 pmYou joke, but hot water from the tap is legislated in Australia to be "warm water" for just this reason.:https://www.vba.vic.gov.au/consumers/guides/hot-water-safetyWith special lower limits for the very old and very young.Owing to plumbers not wanting to run multiple hot water feeds within a house all outlets have the same temperature. This leads to people boiling water in a kettle when they want to do the washing with "hot" water.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 02:15:33 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on December 22, 2020, 11:59:04 pm12 year old or 1 month old, it still would be natural selection - based on parental behavior. Same as a tigress that would not feed the baby tiger, her gene is terminated.Nature is more cold and efficient than modern human society...From a financial stand point, you would be better off hitting an animal then trying to avoid one. Say a deer for example; hitting a deer has lesser financial impact than having an accident while trying to avoid hitting an animal. You hit a car, or a fence, or any other property while trying to avoid a deer, it is your fault and you are responsible for the damage. Your insurance rate will reflect it by increased premium. You hit the deer, it is no fault (at least in my State)... Rare the deer's next-of-kin would take legal action. If you run over a cyclist or jay walker, you would still be paying for it by increased premiums years later.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 03:24:20 am
content: It seems that this topic comes up every few years but little if anything changes, a previous thread linked below. Our local Coles supermarket has all of the batteries including button cells on display not even 4 feet away from the lollies and chocolate bars, mummy I want a packet of the shiny ones.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/don_t-swallow-coin-cells/Edit: Added Image.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 03:41:29 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on December 23, 2020, 02:15:33 amThis reminds me of Dr. Groeteschele (Walter Matthau) from Fail Safe (1964) - my favourite movie.It is probably a misquote that the tyrant Joseph Stalin once said: "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic." In any case, a human trait is concern over death or injury diminishes with time and physical/cultural distance from the victims.As for the coin cell bitter taste solution, if the batteries were sprayed with a bitterant, would that not create contact resistance issues?

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 04:31:04 am
content: Pointless. This is not something that will ever have real benefit from regulation. Just extra nonsense for engineers and companies to keep track of.As for bitterant, the amount you need will have less of an impact than the random oils on your skin from touching the battery.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 04:55:19 am
content: That statistic would be much closer to the floor if more mothers stayed with their babies.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 04:56:27 am
content: I hate those screwed shut battery compartments, I was just talking to my friend about that the other day, it had never occurred to me that it was some kind of a legal requirement. I also hate "child proof" packaging, what a joke, I still remember when I was about 4 years old my grandmother used to ask me to open her medication bottles for her because she had difficulty with the "child proof" caps while my small nimble hands could open them without difficulty.It's easy to say "it would matter to you if it was your child" and yeah that might be true, but you have to look at the big picture. All manner of things around the house are hazardous to kids and it's a minor miracle that any of us make it to adulthood but we did, even with the much more lax safety requirements that we had when I was a kid. There is IMO far too much legislation intended to protect everyone from themselves and much of it brings unintended consequences. Useless feel-good legislation is a plague.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 05:01:36 am
content: Quote from: Someone on December 23, 2020, 01:18:28 amCan you not just turn it up? My water heater has a line on the dial that says something to the effect of that being the recommended maximum temperature, however there is nothing stopping a person from turning it up much higher. I learned pretty quick when I was a young child not to turn the tap too far to the hot side because hot water is... hot.

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 05:07:16 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 23, 2020, 02:22:54 amAt age 75 I still haven't learned to use chopsticks. I'm quite proficient with screwdrivers though.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 05:10:33 am
content: Neither have I, but I think if one grows up in China it's far more ingrained in the culture and something that most people learn from an early age.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 05:21:57 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 23, 2020, 04:56:27 amhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrap_rage#Frustration_and_injuriesAccording to a British study, over 60,000 people receive hospital treatment each year due to injuries from opening food packaging. The Consumer Product Safety Commission estimated that attempts to open packaging caused about 6,500 emergency department visits in the U.S. in 2004.Before I received an injury which would require stitches, I started using tin snips to open bubble packaging which is much safer than a knife or scissors.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 06:10:44 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 23, 2020, 05:01:36 amThey are separate to most water heaters (heaters integrate it) and similar to a gas regulator, possible to adjust but unlabelled and intentionally made difficult.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 07:18:33 am
content: Quote from: ratatax on December 22, 2020, 07:09:31 pmSeeing we're talking about natural selection, next time you get sick, stick to your principles and don't go to the doctor. Stay home and die.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 08:24:21 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on December 23, 2020, 02:15:33 amI dont know if you ever saw a 3-4 year old, but they can throw a glass cup (that they get a hold of somehow) on the floor, swallow a battery and run into the the side of a table in 20 seconds (an start crying). You literally won't notice it happening because you are picking up the shards, so they don't kill your child.And if you think that: This one was dumb, I just make another one...No you wont, you will be devastated, crying 20 years later on Christmas eve. These things stay with and ruin a family.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 09:20:49 am
content: Here is the latest rule that appeared in the news today...https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-23/sa-ban-of-single-use-plastics-and-straws-to-start-in-march/13009582Plastic spoons, forks etc used at BBQs and parties will be banned in South Australia. McDonalds and Kentucky Fried Chicken will be forced to comply. This legislation will undoubtedly spread nation wide.Australia is a safe country to live in, partly because we have three levels of government, with more rules and regulations than any other country on earth. But at least we don't have the EU's ridiculous CE Radio Emissions Directive.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 10:25:44 am
content: Quote from: Someone on December 23, 2020, 01:18:28 amWe have something similar in the UK, but hot is piped everywhere, and then there are thermostatic mixers at point of use when needed, the kitchen sink is not one of those places.When hot water is stored (as opposed to heated on demand) its actually required to be hot, at least 70C if I remember correctly. Legionella risk is seen to be higher than the scalding risk.

author: TERRA Operative
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 11:04:27 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 23, 2020, 05:15:02 amSeems that's an experience a lot of us share from our childhood.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 03:39:44 pm
content: The plastic utensils ban is also a prime example of something no one asked for. Especially considering the replacement is both nonfunctional and harder to recycle, and the actual root cause (lack of recycling, dumping plastic into the ocean instead) isn't addressed.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 05:48:53 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on December 23, 2020, 08:24:21 amAh yes, the old "anything for the children!" hyperbolic nonsense argument that can be used as a reason to legislate virtually anything. But the children, what about the children, you'd care if it was your child, one death/injury is too many, etc, etc, it's carte blanche for useless feel-good rules and regulations that almost always have a negative impact on everyone else while having negligible effect on whatever they are actually attempting to do.The fact is, the vast majority of these useless rules intended to protect children are ineffective at doing just that, and as you indirectly point out, it's essentially futile because small children are very good at getting into trouble, eliminate one threat and they will find something else. Natural selection is going to happen no matter what you do, try to make something idiot proof and the world will evolve a better idiot. It's just a fact that no matter what you do, some people are going to make poor choices and/or experience bad luck and for some it will be the end of the line. The safer you try to mandate everything, the more stupid and careless people will become, already people expect to have warnings and railings around anything that can possibly hurt them and rush out to sue when they do find a way to hurt themselves.There exists a group of people for whom these sort of regulations seem to innately appeal though. For several years in the early 80s there was a law that cars sold in the US could not have a speedometer that went higher than 80 MPH, as if anyone would stop speeding simply because the needle won't go higher. The legislator who introduced that law said years later that she still believed that it saved lives, despite absolutely no data to suggest that.When I was a teenager one of my friends had a car with the 80 MPH speedo and he used to enjoy pegging the needle, if anything it encouraged speeding because it was possible to peg it all the way at the top while still being well within the capabilities of almost any car. Meanwhile even street legal race cars that some people did actually take to the track were compromised by the lack of a usable speedometer at higher speeds.

author: igendel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 05:54:09 pm
content: "Can't parents just watch over their children", that's a Shibboleth for detecting people who are not parents. Why, it's as easy as writing bug-free code on the first shot.Whiledoing all the other everyday chores of course.Nonetheless, there's still something to be said for natural selection. In the last month or so there were two separate cases in my country, where doctors surgically removed open safety pins (!) from the digestive system of babies. Turns out some parents pin charms against "evil eye" to strollers

author: Nauris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 06:22:42 pm
content: Quote from: KaneTW on December 23, 2020, 03:39:44 pmI have a solution!World is just so fixed making everything from plastics. I think if single use utencils were made from plain steel plate that would solve most problems. It would provide equal functionality, could be made from recycled material and is easy to recycle after use. And if ever thrown into nature would readily decompose into harmless rust.And cheap to make too. Some strip of 0.2mm tin-can plate fed into set of progressive carbide dies. First stamp the form then bend edges over to make them round. That could run fast, ten per second per die-set maybe. Maybe some light wax coating to prevent rust.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 06:23:06 pm
content: Well intentioned, but everything has consequences. I have personally demonstrated one for this rule more than once. Most things using coin cells are small and thus the compartment cover and the screw are very small. When removing the screw it is sometimes launched, or captured by the residual magnetism in the screwdriver or lost by simple poor vision and carelessness. At the least this eliminates the safety feature and often makes the compartment cover not stable. So the whole device becomes another addition to the waste stream.Other consequences. The tiny screw also requires a screwdriver not owned by most people buying these things. Thus the device immediately goes in the waste stream, or a specialist business is created to change the batteries, or a huge market for the screwdrivers is created with all of the hazards associated with that from mining through safe storage of the screwdriver. These cells are largely used in hearing aids, and those are used most often by the elderly who likely won't be able to deal with the replacement. That leads to a few hours or days without hearing until a relative or specialist can get the change done, with all sorts of additional health risks from that lack of hearing. Finally, the risks are low, but a toddler might find and ingest that lost screw from the battery compartment cover. It can't be good, though probably seldom results in death.In an ideal world we could calculate how many deaths all of these consequences create. It is a tiny, but non-zero number and might easily be larger than the number of children killed by these batteries. But in our real world we have only appeals to emotion and "What about the children?" trumps "WOW, that is a useless and wasteful inconvenience." every time.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 06:58:05 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on December 23, 2020, 08:24:21 amHey, I never said I liked that... I just repeated a fact that natural selection also work based on parental behavior.Yeah, it would be devastating to loose a child. I do know how difficult it is to fully watch a child 7x24. Nature being what it is, luck also plays a great role.But, not everything in the world can be fixed by a new law or a new regulation. AsCatalinaWOWpointed out, everything has consequences. I would add, politicians' cost benefit analysis often fail. See how a typical politician's net-worth sky rockets after taking office while the society declines. I must make the assumption that much of what they did, the benefit is to the politicians themselves more so than for society in general.An EE firm as it is today would need a number of lawyers in the building already. Keep adding more regulation will eventually disable the entire industry. There must be some rules. Where and how we draw the line is the question.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 10:53:18 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 23, 2020, 06:23:06 pmVery good point about the small screw. I wonder if the legislators even thought about that. Maybe a better idea is to have a latching mechanism that does not use a screw but is child proof that can be tested to standards.Years ago, Australia used a dangerous 240V mains plug with unshielded 240V active and neutral pins, where toddlers could easily get their fingers in contact with the live pins if the plug was half out of the wall socket. People had been electrocuted due to the bad design of these mains plugs. In about the last 20 years a plug with shielded active and neutral pins has been made mandatory for that very reason. All power cords now have plugs with shielded pins, although through eBay one can import products from China still that uses illegal plugs. There was a time when no-one thought it was dangerous to drive without seat belts. Now they are pretty much required throughout the world - first country to make them mandatory was Australia. Such legislation saved many lives.Your last paragraph sounds like it came straight from the mouth of Dr Groeteschele.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 02:28:15 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on December 23, 2020, 10:53:18 pmI guess I don't understand the Groeteschele allusion.Safety belts were evaluated and there was clear data to show that they reduced overall injuries, even though there were certain circumstances where they increased injury. A case where data was available better than the appeal to the "What about when I am trapped in my car underwater" emotion. Same sort of arguments for air bags. They kill some people but the overall data says that they save lives. And the situation was improved further when the data was refined to show that the deadly airbag incidents were tied to a particular set of body characteristics and a disarm switch was provided (at least for the front seat passenger) so that those with those characteristics could be made safer. I am not familiar enough with the Australian shielded pin plug to comment, but will relate that for years there was an ongoing controversy about the safety of twist locking electrical plugs vs the US non-locking standard. The argument was that the locking plug made partial exposure of the conductors less likely and elimination of machinery shutdowns due to accidental disconnection was a safety plus. On the other side was an argument that tripping hazards were made more extreme by a non-breakable attachment and that keeping power applied to a piece of machinery that was dropped or moved by a forklift for example was a hazard. As far as I know there was never data to answer the question and no compelling emotional argument either. Just faded away over time with the twist lock version virtually disappearing over here.Perhaps a real data analysis was done on the coin cell issue, though it hasn't made news here in the US. And here in the US there are quite a few safety rules made without considering whether they actually improve safety. One that I believe has finally been corrected was one that forbid employers from providing iced or chilled water to their workers. It had a huge impact on me and my fellow workers as I worked my way through school in and outdoor steel fabrication yard where we didn't really know how hot it was because the available glass bulb thermometers went to the top and popped. Something well over 120 F. It finally was recognized that the rule had propagated from a time before mechanical refrigeration, when ice came from lakes and ponds cut and stored during the winter for summer use. And when no real provisions were made to assure that the ice wasn't cut from animal latrines or contaminated by rodents in storage.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 03:59:32 am
content: I like the twist lock plugs for heavy duty stuff where the cord is a big heavy thing that tugs at the plug even under normal circumstances. I wouldn't want them for small domestic stuff. As far as safety, they only work when they are actually locked, the machine will receive power just by pushing the plug into the socket.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 01:51:55 pm
content: Quote from: igendel on December 23, 2020, 05:54:09 pmAll the toys that used coin cells here at my house had screws on their compartment. You can have all the theories or best guesses about such legislation, but it surely gave us a massive peace of mind that the cells wouldn't pop out at the most inconvenient time or completely out of sight. By the way, try to keep 100% of your attention for 100% of time withtwins. Kids have all the time in the world to figure out things, and a simple compartment door with no specific locking mechanism would be surely opened by them. Besides, this phase lasts until 2 or 2-1/2 years old, to which you are able to teach them better to not put everything in their mouths. By the age of 3 my girls were already working with the screwdriver and loved it!Reversing the tables, if you are an adult that cannot be bothered to buy a set of precision screwdrivers or ask someone to do it, you shouldn't buy these toys. The spring on the batteries compartment would surely be another problem in case these are opened unexpectedly - batteries flying everywhere. For the loose screw argument, that makes sense but there's a reason why you do this away from kids or at the time they are napping - being an item that is replaced only so often, that is a doable procedure.For the other things that need to be opened and connected more often, such locking mechanism surely irritates me. I've had the medicine containers frustrate me a few times, but these were also effective during this hand to mouth phase (on the occasional dropped container).Also, several US plugs can have a very tight fit (especially the more commercial/industrial looking types) and they are relegated to be used in extension cords and other applications that are connected for long periods. I never used the chubby european plugs/outlets (UK, Germany) but, if they are hard to insert/pull as they look, then no thanks. However, I find it ironic how the US bashing about their "unsafe" plugs is the norm in these types of discussions, but in a somewhat similar concern the number of incidents is brought up as a reason to ridicule this. Last time I checked the number of electrocutions was rather small...All in all, I think that bringing this to the table generates the discussion and, at least with the already severely regulated toy market, this is just one more fib to add.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 06:14:15 pm
content: Had an interesting thought last night about a possibly better way to make the coin or button cells safe. Just coat them with a self sealing elastomer. Which requires battery compartments to have appropriate prongs to penetrate the elastomer, a not particularly challenging problem - except for already fielded designs. These can be used by application of a bit of sandpaper.This mitigates the hazard which is two fold. The electrolysis and its byproducts which occurs in the gut. And since the battery is not shorted and run down, it is unlikely to leak during its passage through the gut eliminating the second part of the hazard. This solution also mitigates the risk of batteries before installation in the various applications and old batteries that didn't make it into a safe container before disposal.There is still the problem of mechanical blockage of the gut, but that is no more severe than any of the myriad of other swallowable size objects in the world from pebbles to game pieces to .....

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 06:23:55 pm
content: I've actually seen quite a few of those screwed shut battery covers missing the screw, with a piece of tape holding them shut instead which defeats the purpose. At the very least they should have a captive screw.Either way it's pointless, it should be obvious to anyone here that a small child can operate a screwdriver easily as most of us in engineering probably got in trouble at least a few times as young kids for taking things apart. It took a number of years before I had perfected the art of putting them back together.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 07:28:19 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 23, 2020, 04:56:27 amWhen I was a very little kid, my mom had a few years where she was getting really bad migraines. (Not my fault, I swear!) Anyhow, one time, my mom got a migraine and was too delirious with pain to negotiate the childproof cap. I couldn’t get it open, so she grabbed a hammer and smashed the bottle to smithereens and then pulled some pills out of the wreckage to take. 😂(I don’t remember what kind of cap it was, i.e. whether it relied more on adult dexterity or hand strength, but I couldn’t get it open. How they expect the elderly to open them is beyond me.)

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 07:30:29 pm
content: I find UK plugs to be overkill (a fuse _in the plug_ is too much, and they're unpleasantly pointy and heavy). Out of all plugs I've used, I've found Schuko to be the most comfortable. Secure fit, rounded prongs, ground easily accessible and guaranteed to make first contact. US plugs are by far my least favorite -- flimsy, exposed metal that you could easily touch with a finger, etc.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 07:35:02 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 23, 2020, 05:48:53 pmReal law, wrong explanation: it had nothing to do with safety, it was because of the fuel crisis. It was to encourage fuel savings (which it failed at, FWIW).http://classic-car-history.com/85-mph-speedo.htm

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 07:51:12 pm
content: Quote from: KaneTW on December 24, 2020, 07:30:29 pmThe fuse in UK plugs isn’t “too much”, it’sabsolutely essentialbecause behind those sockets are circuits rated (and fused) for 32A. So instead of requiring every appliance to have a cord as thick as a garden hose, the plug is fused to prevent normal-size appliance cords from catching on fire if the appliance should short out.I rather dislike the Schuko plug, IMHO it’s far too large and heavy for what it does. (Yes, it’s smaller than UK plugs, but that’s not setting the bar very high!)Good quality US plugs and sockets are very nice to use. (Sadly, most US household sockets are cheap, and loosen over time. Nobody, and I mean nobody, follows the manufacturers’ recommendation to regularly replace them every 10 years. Commercial and industrial-grade sockets (of the same plug type) are designed to handle FAR more insertion cycles without loosening.) As far as safety, I don’t think they’ve proven to be hugely dangerous in practice. But I’d love to see them adopt semi-insulated prongs — the Australian plug has flat prongs almost identical in width and thickness, and they’ve been semi-insulated for years.Honestly, I actually think Switzerland has one of the nicest residential plug designs. It’s compact, attractive, and safe, and has a really clever system of backward compatible 3-phase sockets. (Not an issue of national pride: I’m an American living here.) Brazil’s new socket is nearly identical, but with different spacing that makes it incompatible. Brazil’s design, in turn, is a slightly modified version of an international socket standard that never got implemented anywhere.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 08:04:58 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 24, 2020, 02:28:15 amThat’s everywhere: politicians need to be seen as “doing something about ” so they pass a law addressing that one thing without evaluating follow-on effects or the big picture in general.Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 24, 2020, 02:28:15 amCitation needed.By the time the US started passing food safety and workplace safety laws, ice harvesting was already dead, since mechanical refrigeration had fully replaced harvested ice with manufactured ice.What is true is that ice water can be dangerous in extremely hot environments. For that reason, some employers might have chosen to not offer it. That or they were cheapskates.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 10:23:41 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on December 23, 2020, 06:58:05 pmOh, I know about this, trust me. <--- that's my job.I have to put warning signs on the electronics:"Do not open when an explosive atmosphere is present"I usually have 3-4 warning labels on it, one is not to rub the plastic parts, because it might be ecstatically charged. Most of them is ridiculous, unrealistic for the most cases. I mean who is going to take a screwdriver and disassemble some electronics device, standing in the middle of a propane cloud, right? The testing for this kind of equipment is expensive and long, and your product usually needs some sort of modification. And that's fine, at least I sleep well.Because all these things (even that tiny screw sealing the battery compartment) cost time and money. And that's something that companies hate to spend. If you can skip some sort of safety measure, there will be a manager, who tells you (the product designer) to skip it. It could be industrial electronics for dangerous areas or a toy train, it could kill people. As a design engineer, the most regulation there is, the better. Even if it causes headaches sometimes.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2020, 06:59:15 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on December 24, 2020, 10:23:41 pmBullshit. There needs to be some regulation, but there is already way, way too much regulation in the world and much of it does nothing BUT cause headaches. Over-regulation ruins products that could be good, and takes perfectly good products that worked off the market and replaces them with crap. Want a specific example? Try using one of the idiotic CARB-compliant portable gas (petrol) cans that are mandated across the USA now. They are not allowed to have a vent (because vapor may escape) and they are required to be "child proof". The result is cans that blow up like a balloon if left in the sun then spray gasoline vapor everywhere when you manage to release the nozzle, an act which usually requires 3 hands. Then because there can't be a vent, as gas pours out the air has to go in the nozzle so they go GLUG gurgle gurgle GLUG gurgle GLUG and dump gas all over the place when trying to fill the small tanks on portable equipment. If you want to use one to put gas in a car forget it, the stupid nozzles won't fit properly in a lot of car gas fillers, and if you do manage to get it in they flow so slowly that your arm will fall off trying to hold the thing up. They are absolutely useless garbage that accomplish the exact opposite of everything they the new regulation was supposed to do. It's so bad that an array of companies sprouted up selling "water jugs" and nozzles for said jugs which are quite obviously gas cans but can't be sold as such. I HATE excessive safety regulations, I'd roll back a huge range of regulations given the chance. If you want to buy some overly regulated headache inducing piece of crap that is your right, but don't force it on me.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2020, 07:03:11 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 24, 2020, 07:51:12 pmThe cords aren't the size of a garden hose. It's perfectly legal to have an appliance plugged into a 20A, or even a 30A or larger circuit with a piddly little 18AWG cord, it is up to the appliance to be fused appropriately that it can't burn up the cord. A fused plug would be preferable but we don't typically have them here except on christmas lights. I don't recall ever having a cord burn up though, a short circuit on the end of a light duty cord will still pop a 20A breaker easily.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2020, 12:54:38 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 24, 2020, 06:23:55 pmJames, the problem here is access, not ability. Infants are surrounded by toys and not screwdrivers. Besides, it is neither obvious nor true without a lot of training. When my girls were introduced to the screwdrivers, they couldn't remove a single bit even after tens of times trying. We don't realize, but there is a large number of very fine adjustments to the process (downward pressure, speed, dexterity with the small fingers) that we learned and became second nature, but for them it is quite difficult without assistance. Sure, by the age of four they had most of details mastered but, by then, eating things at random is not a problem anymore.Quote from: james_s on December 25, 2020, 07:03:11 amYou are correct, but I still look somewhat favourably to the fuse in the plug, despite the increase in size. This could prevent issues with frayed cords (a not uncommon occurrence) and it would be helpful to prevent a problem at the point of entry, not inside the appliance. However, there would need to have more than one value and not a standardized 13A rating (which I think the UK is set for, but correct me if I am wrong) to address the puny "lamp cord" 18AWG sizes.It is the old adage that "fuses/breakers protect the wiring, not the appliance".

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2020, 01:04:32 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 25, 2020, 07:03:11 amWhat you call 'perfectly legal' is not a legal matter nor necessarily compliant with the appropriate standards of other countries. This is called 'downstream fusing', which is generally considered appropriatewhen the cable is reasonably protected from mechanical damage.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2020, 01:53:23 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on December 24, 2020, 10:23:41 pmHonesty appreciatedI would have no problem with such ban limited to toys for small kids, but if it ever applies to anything I use regularly, it's going to be noncompliant alternatives from AliExpress for me.I hope the sole end result will just be less stuff imported to Australia. Legally imported, at least.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2020, 05:41:59 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 25, 2020, 06:59:15 amAmen to that! Those damned gas can nozzles are truly terrible. I've probably spilled more gasoline from cans fitted with those bloody things than I EVER did with conventional nozzles. (And I still have and use several cans with conventional nozzles to this day.) Politicians and bureaucrats can almost always be counted on to provide a solution that's as bad if not worse in some other way than the 'issue' they're trying to address. This is a prime example - problem: escaping gas fumes bad, require a stupid nozzle design. Result: no fumes leak when the can is sitting in storage (BTW, my cans with normal nozzles have caps that prevent this too, I just need to screw them back on after using the can), but raw gas is spilled nearly every time the can is used due to the lousy nozzle. Net effect: more gas evaporates than otherwise would, and cans are aggravating to use. Great job, morons!-Pat

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2020, 09:32:37 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 24, 2020, 08:04:58 pmI don't have a citation, this is from my teen years. It was in osha early days and I was told that their first rule sets were just a union of all the state safety laws. And included this archaic law from one of the northern tier states got swept into the mix. As to the dangers of serving iced or chilled drinks, if it is a problem every restaurant and fast food place in the southern tier of states is killing people right and left.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 12:17:01 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 25, 2020, 06:59:15 amIMHO, the US doesn't have a problem of excessive regulation, but of poorly-designed legislation.But first, a lot of legislationisn'twhat people think it is. Your example of the gas cans is a perfect one. The law itself is not nearly as draconian or unreasonable as you make it out to be.The CARB regulation requires the cans to seal automatically and to be made such as to reduce permeation of the fuel. It does NOT ban a vent:QuoteSource:https://www.arb.ca.gov/consprod/fuel-containers/pfc/pfccp501.pdf(the certification requirements)https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/consprod/fuel-containers/pfc/pfcreg2016.pdf(the regulatory order itself, which references the certification requirements and gives them power of law)The regulation places limits on vapor escape, requires it to be self-closing, so people don't accidentally leave it uncapped, and specifies that it may not leak. What the law doesn't do is tell manufacturershowto implement those requirements. What this means is that some manufacturers will take the easy and cheap route by making some shitty product with no vent.But it is possible to make compliant cans that work just fine:https://www.jlconline.com/tools/trucks-equipment/gas-cans-that-actually-work_oIn fact, the regulatory order itself expressly allows for manufacturers to apply for an exemption from what little implementation details are given, if they have an "innovative" design that accomplishes the same goals a different way than the law envisions:QuoteThis seems to me to be a very sensible, reasonable law, written such as tonotprescribe a particular product design.In other words, don't blame a law (which itself is perfectly sensible, both in intent and expression) for the shoddy work of crappy manufacturers who are simply too lazy to get it right.Meanwhile, remember that safety and environmental laws arewritten in blood. They're not there for shits and giggles, but because they're needed to prevent harm. The fact that millions of easily-avoided workplace injuries happen each year shows that the need for such regulations is real. Similarly, the abominable state of the nutritional supplements industry demonstrates precisely why medical products need strong oversight. Those are just two examples.I do, however, agree that regulations need to be doneright, and that means a) making a sincere effort to weigh the benefits of the change against the negative consequences, and b)being willing to quickly and decisively rescind or modify a regulation if it has unforeseen negative consequences. But the latter is something governments in USA are almost never willing to do. So bad regulation, instead of being rescinded, gets more and more crap slathered onto it, with lawmakers digging in their heels rather than simply saying "hey, this didn't work out, so let's undo it, regroup, and do something else".What I am absolutely against are the kinds of regulations (the kind usually snuck in as "pork") designed to tip the scales for a particular company or special interest group, or more broadly, anything designed only to be anti-competitive, without significant merit of its own.Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 25, 2020, 09:32:37 pm<sass>Honey, I lived in the deep south until I was 12 (and in Maryland for 10 years)… I know all about those sticky, sweltering 100˚F-in-the-shade-and-90%-humidity summers!Anyhow, I said itcanbe dangerous, in that it can cause problems if drunk too quickly. My mom grew up in Miami and says she had a high school classmate who died from chugging lots of ice water after getting heatstroke playing sports outdoors in the summer. They were taught to be careful. Of course, deaths are very, very rare. But chugging ice water can also lead tolight-headednessandstomach cramps, and it actuallyrehydrates the body more slowlythan more temperate water.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 12:42:23 am
content: I'm wondering how long it will take before people are forbidden to drive a car because it's considered too dangerous.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 01:21:11 am
content: Quote from: Someone on December 23, 2020, 01:18:28 amIn Western Australia, the water from the hot tap is quite hot enough for any practical purposes.Actual "boiling" water in your system is a great way to get vapour lock & "banging" sounds from your pipes.How many people would ever check the temperature of the hot water flowing into their washing machine?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 01:31:28 am
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on December 27, 2020, 12:42:23 amI don't know when this is going to happen, but with self driving cars the barriers are starting to crumble.One thing is that, in my opinion, the barrier to maneuver a multi-ton piece of metal is very, very low. A comparison between the type of driving lessons my parents and I had was very revealing - a metric ton of information and good practices were thrown out of the window, but fortunately they taught me well at home. Also, people confuse that driving is a concession and not a right.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 01:41:45 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 27, 2020, 12:17:01 amNo, the law is not sensible, the law is garbage. It was poorly thought out and poorly implemented, and it is an objectively true fact that 100% of the products compliant with the law are inferior to those on the market prior to the law, about 90% of them are complete shit and the other 10% cost three times as much as the old ones that worked. It's the self-closing mandate on the vent that makes it useless, so that nearly everybody who actually tries using one of these cans quickly modifies it to eliminate the problem. Only an idiot leaves the vent cap open when they're done using the fuel can, doing so allows the expensive fuel to evaporate and contamination to get in. Really, how hard it is it to close the vent when you finish and why do we need a law that mandates a stupid overly complex self closing vent? What next? Automatic zipping pants so people don't forget to put their pecker away when they finish peeing? No thanks, I'll drill a hole and install a tire valve stem as a vent and replace the nozzle whenever I encounter one of those cans, it is a functionally superior solution. Or I can pick up a can next door in Canada because they're sensible enough to have not adopted the ridiculous US law.How anyone could say that the gas can law is sensible with a straight face I truly cannot understand. What the law intended may in some "treat everyone like helpless children who cannot be trusted to do anything right" society be reasonable, the unintended consequence that it actually results in is an array of worthless products that are compliant with the law as written but do exactly the opposite of what the law intended. That is virtually the definition of a stupid law written by people with no understanding of the thing they were trying to legislate. I don't think anyone who has ever actually used one of those newer cans could possibly agree that they're an improvement.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 01:48:15 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on December 27, 2020, 01:21:11 amIt's quite hot enough for anything you do, but not everybody has the same requirements and expectations as you. How about leaving the choice of water temperature up to the consumer? Really, how hard is it to have a control like our water heaters have which shows the recommended maximum but does not prevent those who desire hotter water from turning it up higher? If you often run out of hot water you can turn it up higher and then it mixes with more cold water at the tap and you get the effect of a larger water heater. Why are some people so obsessed with dictating what other people do?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 02:36:38 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 27, 2020, 01:48:15 amBecause many Australians have Solar hot water systems on the roof, where you can't get to them, even if they had variable controls, & other types of heaters are not normally fitted with such controls (not from the Victorian law quoted earlier---that's just the way they make 'em, in Oz, China, or whatever).If you keep your hands under the hot tap in my kitchen, it gets painful enough that you have to move your hand away.An adult's hand looks red after this, but not damaged ------a child would suffer burns.Many people do "cold water"washes these days,-------modern fabric doesn't much like hot water, any "germ reducing" effect of clothes washing with hot water has been pretty much debunked, & in any case disinfectant added to the water will do about as much, or more.Nobody uses hot water out of the tap for cooking, due to the (maybe) small amount of metallic contamination more likely in storage of hot water than direct flow from the mains.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 03:59:22 am
content: Aside from the potential risk factors associated with coin cells there are a multitude of devices around that simply should not use them in the first place. For example, I have a set of poorly designed kitchen scales which look like they were originally made to take two CR-2032 batteries but instead eat only one at a time. In desperation recently I modified them to take two AA batteries in an external holder but there is more than ample room to fit a couple of AA or AAA batteries internally which is what the manufacturer should have done in the first place. I also encountered the same thing again in a set of digital bathroom scales which also used two CR-2032 batteries, sick of replacing batteries I wired those up to a plug pack.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 04:20:40 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on December 27, 2020, 02:36:38 amdishwashingworks much better with a higher temperature water.Most water heaters do have a way to adjust their operating temperature as its important for hygiene/public health and a plumber is supposed to verify/calibrate it. That is another temperature control in addition to the tempering valve.Western Australia enacted the legislation later but they do have it in force:https://noprobsplumbing.com.au/tempering-valve/(lacking a better reference since I'm not in that market/jurisdiction)Existing installations are exempt, and as mentioned above its possible to have an install where the kitchen and laundry taps do have a higher temperature but very very few domestic installs add that extra expense. That you haven't experienced it doesn't mean its not a requirement in the building codes.I personally don't feel enough pain to remove my hand quickly from a 50 degree C water flow, but its still hot enough you can't remain submerged in it for long. So your measure of "Hot" is practically meaningless. Some food/cooking fats melt above 50 degrees, which is why dishwashing really benefits from higher temperatures.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 06:59:02 am
content: Some time ago I made a mistake during dishwashing with gloves on. I held one hand too close to the running tap and hot water ran into the glove and burned my hand. It took me some seconds to take of the glove and cool my hand, but it kept hurting for about half a day. I later checked the temperature and it was 74 Celcius.The next day it did not trouble me anymore.I'm glad to have the right to do stupid things.It's from mistakes like this that you learn to be a bit more careful.If you try to diminish all risk from life a fool will just find a bigger stupidity to commit.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 07:09:33 am
content: Quote from: Someone on December 27, 2020, 04:20:40 amMaybe with a machine, but it makes no difference with a human, who can see where the gunk is & remove it.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 09:15:08 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 27, 2020, 01:31:28 amWell actually it is. Where did we start thinking that anything not specifically allowed was forbidden?Restrictions on any activity should be thoughtful concessions to the public good. Licensing for vehicle operation is one of those rightful concessions in my opinion, but should always be thought of that way.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 09:43:44 am
content: Quote from: Someone on December 27, 2020, 04:20:40 am...and that people won't just mod it themselves if they really want "real" hot water, codes be damned.Then again, living in a nanny state probably beats the motivation out of you to do anything but comply.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 10:21:16 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 27, 2020, 09:15:08 amRe-reading my post I wonder if it could be interpreted in two ways, so I am unsure if we have the same point of view. The way I see it is that a right is something you have inalienably. Driving is something that, although many people have, it is conceded after you prove yourself capable and need to constantly prove compliance.Ah, found the phrase: "driving is a privilege and not a right".

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 10:26:41 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on December 27, 2020, 03:59:22 amI agree with you if the rate of replacement is indeed too high, but otherwise I would take a CR2032 any day. Too many appliances lost due to these stupid ultra low quality AA/AAA cells.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 11:32:50 am
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on December 27, 2020, 12:42:23 amOr a motorcycle. Especially one that used a coin cell somewhere.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 11:45:36 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 27, 2020, 01:48:15 amBecause often times the user of a device and the purchaser of a device is not the same person.I was able to tell my landlord few years ago, that the installed electrical cabinet, with a single fuse, is not up to the building code. If I wanted, I could refuse to pay rent until he fixes it. Because the law said so. He fixed it within a week.The same applies to many work related objects. The less regulation there is, the shittiest tools and appliances you get for your job. And if you ask for the safe and reliable tools: "but we already have one, use that".This is not a unique situation, billions of people use object, that someone else purchased. Like toys. A kid will want a toy, based on the Disney figure on it's side, not the quality of the injection mold, or the battery compartment.It is probably hard to understand this on the "land of the free*", but most laws are made for you, not against you. Because freedom also means that everyone is free to take advantage of you. That stupid screw costs 0.1 cent. And you are not a toy designer, move on.*read it as explained in Jim Jefferies: Freedumb

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 01:25:27 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 27, 2020, 10:21:16 amI am not sure we agree. We do agree that driving should be restricted to those who have demonstrated that they can responsibly share the roads with others. But we seem to come at it from different directions. I view it as a restriction on the general right of anyone to do anything. A step that while necessary, should be taken carefully and reluctantly. While you seem to view it as a generous and limited gift to be parceled out.In a more electronics related example restrictions on radio emissions are needed for the common good. Use of the spectrum in the absence of that common good requirement is not something that should be owned by the government. And no one pretends that it was prior to 1900 or so. Hertz and Marconi didn't have to ask permission to perform their experiments.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 07:28:42 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 27, 2020, 01:25:27 pmI see your point and I come from the same position (english is not my first language and, from time to time, I still stumble). Perhaps it was my sentence about the low bar, but I dunno.Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 27, 2020, 01:25:27 pmYes, at the beginning of a new technology the regulations are not in place, but they end up creeping up at some time - faster if there is a potential for or actual competition/revenue.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 10:38:57 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on December 27, 2020, 02:36:38 amThat's how hot water is supposed to work. I can't hold my hand under the hot water from the tap in my kitchen, it's hot. If it was so cool that I could hold my hand under it then it isn't hot enough to be acceptable. I'm not a child, I don't have children, if I did then I would consider turning down the hot water until they are old enough to be taught not to put their hands under hot water. If you want lukewarm water then you have that choice, but you have no right to dictate to everyone else how hot their water can be, or to tell them what is hot enough. Your get to rule your household, no further.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 10:45:05 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on December 27, 2020, 07:09:33 amWho washes dishes by hand? I'll occasionally wash something that way if I need it right away or if it's too big to fit well in the dishwasher but I don't know anybody who regularly does their dishes by hand, nearly everyone has a dishwasher.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 10:50:48 pm
content: Quoteyou do now,dont own,never had nor ever want a dishwasher,total waste of energy, space and money

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 10:55:23 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on December 27, 2020, 11:45:36 amI'd be inclined to tell you to vacate so I can move someone else in there.I don't care what the screw costs, I care that it's annoying because I have to go find a damn screwdriver every time I want to change the batteries on something, then I have to go put the screwdriver away when I'm finished, and it's so bloody pointless because any 3 year old could go get a screwdriver as easily as I can so what's even the point? Whenever reasonably possible I throw away the screw and find an alternate method to hold the cover on. The old style covers that click shut are so much more convenient and I resent having my convenience reduced in a futile attempt to protect some other person from their own incompetence. The requirement doesn't accomplish the stated goal of making anyone safer, it ONLY makes things less convenient for the majority.Frankly that wording "most laws are made for you" gives me the creeps. Big Brother knows best. Did you ever read the novel "1984"? It is frightening. Anybody trying to dictate choices for my own good and protect me from myself can go to hell. I deeply resent it, I'm not a child and refuse to be treated like one. The attitude is increasingly prevalent and makes my blood boil. We have created an entire generation that expects to be perpetually shielded from anything and everything that could possibly cause them harm and it results in people who are incapable of dealing with anything.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 11:03:04 pm
content: The whole premise of something being safe (coin cell, live mains, or whatever) because it can't be accessed without the use of a tool has become worthless in a modern world, where pretty well everyone has the tool bits, even the tamper proof ones!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2020, 11:03:35 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 27, 2020, 10:50:48 pmSpace, yeah there is that, UK houses are tiny compared to what I'm used to, no way around that. Money? I got my dishwasher for free but even a new one is only a few hundred bucks. Energy? It costs pennies per wash cycle, and washing by hand isn't free either, I end up using a lot more water washing by hand because the rinse water isn't recirculated at all, it runs right down the drain for each individual dish. A dishwasher also normally heats the water as it circulates so it stays hot without having to drain it and bring in more hot water. The main thing is time, a dishwasher cuts the time I spend washing a load of dishes down to a fraction, and time is by far the most valuable commodity I have. It is the one single thing that I cannot acquire more of and with the time saved not doing a chore I loathe a dishwasher would be an absolute bargain at 10 times what they actually cost.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 09:38:08 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 27, 2020, 10:55:23 pmI'd be inclined to tell you to vacate so I can move someone else in there.Well, unfortunately, you don't get to do that.Quote from: james_s on December 27, 2020, 10:55:23 pmSo typical. You cannot even imagine anything between "FREEDOOOM!!!" and a dystopian communism, do you.Yes, if we mandate companies to install a small screw so small children don't choke to their death, we will live in a dystopia. And laws are stupid. And stupid people should die. And spending 30 seconds on a safety measure, is wrong, it makes your life unbearable. Really, you cannot see that you are being an ignorant [insert word here], ranting about safety laws in other countries...Quote from: james_s on December 27, 2020, 10:45:05 pmHave you ever stepped outside your country? Your state? Or, you know, see any documentaries on Fox news about other countries?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 10:42:10 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 27, 2020, 10:50:48 pmDishwashers use far less water (and because of that, far less energy) than handwashing. I have no idea where some people get the idea that dishwashers waste energy, because the exact opposite is true.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 10:47:10 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 27, 2020, 01:41:45 amI can tell you’ve neither read the law itself, nor did you carefully read anything I wrote. Nor have you given two seconds’ thought as to why the law was needed: regulations occur because lots of peopledon’tact responsibly. If they did, we wouldn’t need regulations. Manufacturers of gas cans shouldn’t have needed to be told to design the canisters such as to not leak, and to be made of materials the gas doesn’t permeate. Consumers shouldn’t have needed to be told to close them. Yet every garage or shed holding an old style gas can constantly reeked of gasoline, indicating ongoing vapor leakage.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 10:55:50 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on December 27, 2020, 11:03:04 pmIn the Democratic People's European Union mains extension cords increasingly use rivets for that reasonHooray for repairability and sustanability

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 11:15:37 am
content: Quote from: magic on December 28, 2020, 10:55:50 amOr maybe it’s because rivets are cheaper and easier to insert than tamper proof screws.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 11:28:38 am
content: Hmm, possibly that too

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 12:11:36 pm
content: Quoteout of curiosity how much water?my washing up takes about 6L of water,4 cold and 2l boiled in the kettle,time taken about the same time as it takes the kettle to boil for the after dinner coffee

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 12:24:53 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 28, 2020, 12:11:36 pmModern dishwashers use about 13L per load, including the rinse. A typical person uses around100 litersto wash and rinse the same amount of dishes by hand, according to a study by the University of Bonn.If you're actually washing and rinsing a dishwasher load's worth of dishes in 6L of water, then you are at the very fringes of the curve.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 03:22:42 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 28, 2020, 12:24:53 pmI place the first lot of things (usually cutlery), in the sink, partially fill with hot water, wash a batch, rinse them under the hot tap, & dry them with a teatowel.The rinsing water from each lot goes straight back into the sink, not down the drain.Each successive group of things, like glasses, cups, plates, & so on are done the same way.A large wash does mean I will need to lose some water, so as to not overflow, but not a lot.I don't like leaving detergent residue on dishes, so that is why I rinse them-----other people do not care, so leave that step out.A small sink like mine will probably be filled with around 6.0 litres of water, so allowing for a bit of loss, I am probably looking at using around 10 litres max.This also is used to wash down the sink area, the counter round it, & often the cooktop.As we have a Solar HWS, the water heating cost is negligible.There was a dishwasher installed in our kitchen when we bought this house, but we found it was an unending source of trouble, being out of service more than in service, & ditched it.I can't work out how anyone uses 100 litres to do a handwash, unless they are slavishly imitating how a machine does the job.Back in the day, when we lived in an area without mains power or water, Mum (or us kids) would wash up in a "washing up dish" about the same size as my sink.The water was heated in a biggish kettle on a wood stove.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 03:31:59 pm
content: Quotesame here,i doubt i even use that in a day.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 04:01:31 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 28, 2020, 03:31:59 pmIn the old days I referred to, our well only gave brackish water--OK for the livestock, but no good for humans.Our primary source of water was rainwater from one very large water tank, one a bit smaller, & one "100gallon" (approx460l) tank which we used as a "working source", topping it up as required, from the big tanks or, for a relatively short period at the end of Summer, by water hauled from a standpipe in the nearest small town in a "44gallon (Imp) /55Gallon (US)/200 litre" drum.On one occasion, we tried taking the big "100gallon" tank to the standpipe, but the logistic problems made that unworkable.I have " spelt out" the size of the drum we did use in all three systems of measures to give some sense of how much water "100 litres" really is------a whole lot!It is just as well that those researchers at the Uni of Bonn have jobs as academics---------they would be unemployable as dishwashers!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 04:07:17 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 28, 2020, 03:31:59 pmDo you not shower?Quote from: vk6zgo on December 28, 2020, 03:22:42 pmI'm definitely with you on rinsing all the detergent off!I often use cold water to wash things which aren't greasy, such as coffee cups, cereal bowls and glasses. I find modern detergents work quite well, even with cold water. It does take a little longer to dry, but that's a non-issue, as it's just me, there's always room on the draining board. Using tea towels is very unhygienic. Hot water is for things caked in grease. I expect some people may think using cold water is less hygienic, than hot water, because they don't believe it kills germs, but the water would have to be scalding hot to do that and modern washing up liquid is a fairly good antiseptic.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 04:14:50 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 28, 2020, 10:42:10 amThat depends on how much washing up you have.I live by myself so I generate perhaps two plates, a mug, a saucepan or frying pan and a few utensils a day. It takes little water and about 5 minutes tops to do the daily washing up. The dishwasher takes at least an hour.The only time I use the dishwasher is to wash lab glassware since I may have 20 or more 500 ml bottles. But that's rare, too.I could so easily live without a dishwasher. Indeed, I'd live without a clothes dryer except it's forbidden to air-dry clothes outside where I live.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 04:22:16 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 28, 2020, 12:24:53 pmThat's just FUD. Or people are so used to using dishwashers, they don't know how to do dishes by hand efficiently. I use about 10 liters. It's not difficult unless you are stupid.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 04:44:10 pm
content: People are notoriously stupid.But then again, all those Science™ studies measuring things like the amount of water it takes to wash the dishes across a whole country makes you think that those scientist guys gotta have some clairvoyance powers

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 06:28:49 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on December 28, 2020, 04:22:16 pmNot FUD. The study said the spread was huge: between 30 and 440L!!! o_OBut the upshot is, a dishwasher pretty much always uses less water, and because of that, less energy.I also suspect that the people who say they use just a few L aren't comparing the same amount of dishes.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 06:44:31 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 28, 2020, 06:28:49 pmYou didn't say how many dishes, or anything about the water temperature. I'm pretty sure I use less energy when washing cold, than any dishwasher and I still use less, even when I need to use hot water. I never fill the the sink. I wet the dishes, apply detergent to the brush, scrub and cold rinse. If a pan is very greasy, I put a small amount of hot water and detergent in it, leave it to soak, scrub to loosen the grease and rinse with cold water.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 07:22:07 pm
content: https://www.choice.com.au/home-and-living/kitchen/dishwashers/articles/dishwasher-vs-washing-by-handhttps://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1470-6431.2010.00973.x

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 07:41:35 pm
content: I can save more water by peeing in my garden instead of flushing a toilet...

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 07:59:57 pm
content: if its yellow let it mellowif its brown flush it down

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 08:27:07 pm
content: Shielding a child all the time is not a good thing either.On average, city kids exposed to more danger has more "street smart". They are far more likely to be able to deal with danger and unknowns.As a child in the city, I was pocket picked at least once and rob at knife point three times. Of that three, twice I was very fearful of my life. The third time which was the last time, I was as in control as they were. True, they got the knives and got away scot-free with some money, but I got to keep what I wanted to keep.It is common for youths to think they are immortal. "It only happens to someone else" is a common thought, but too often they forgot: to someone else, you are someone else.If you over-protected your child, you will spend the rest of your life worrying about the danger around them - simple ones that your wisdom and experience of age would help you avoid with ease. I often wish that my kid had been robbed a time or two as long as there was no personal injury. Now I am paying for that mistake of over-protecting while I observe my (now a young adult) kid's blissful ignorance of real danger.Simple things that may hurt very very bad but wont kill or permanently damage a child, let them learn by mistake. You get a more capable child as a result.Quote from: james_s on December 27, 2020, 10:55:23 pmAs one of our former President had said: "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction."Too many has been indoctrinated with blind trust in government. While some politicians are good, but they are by far the minority. The last politicianI know ofwho retired (not defeated) after decades of service and went back into a meager civilian life was over a decade ago. These days, politicians drastically increased their own net-worth while as politicians, and yet they keep on getting "elected" back in. So, that "one generation" appears to be here, now. Feels like December 1983 to me now.EDIT:Changed "was decades ago" to "was over a decade ago" in the last paragraph.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 10:00:03 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 28, 2020, 07:22:07 pmI can see the point about wasting loads of water, whilst waiting for it to warm up, hence why I use cold.I strongly disagree with not rinsing. Read the label on a detergent bottle and note the ingredients and safety warnings: it's not something you want to be eating. Fair enough, in small quantities it'll do no harm, but I use it very concentrated, with minimal water, so rinsing is mandatory, otherwise I'd taste it and what about other residues such as raw meat and blood? No way will I eat that! As far as waiting for the dishes to pile up, or using a bucket is concerned: that wouldn't save me any water, because I never fill the sink or use the plug. I just wet the dishes, so use the same amount of water, per dish, irrespective of the quantity.I'm not bothered about saving water, because I live in an area with relatively high rainfall and drought is rare. Saving energy is more important. My energy bills are low. I have my central heating thermostat set to 15oC, when I'm up and 10oC, when I'm out/asleep. I normally take cold showers and wash my hands cold. I live on my own. I've realised it takes so long to run the water hot, by the time it's warm, my hands are already clean, so I just use cold and my skin is better for it too.I'd definitely use more energy/water if I had a dishwasher. Modern dishwashers which try to save water are pretty crappy. My mum has one and she finds she has to soak the dishes before running it, otherwise it leaves a residue, so she probably uses more water than just doing them in the sink. It's worse because there's only two of them in the house, so the dishes piles up and the food dries hard, making it more difficult to wash. This is a classic example of regulation failure. Another is water saving toilets which require more than one flush and have a crappy siphon which ends up leaking, after a few years.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 10:37:44 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 28, 2020, 06:44:31 pmMy Bosch dishwasher uses 6L of water and 1kWh of electricity to wash dishes, on the eco setting (50 celsius), and about 10L of water and 1.4kWh of electricity on the intensive setting (70 celsius.)With that it can wash 20+ plates/dishes/cups/mugs/etc plus all the utensils and I don't have to get my hands dirty. Dishes come out perfectly clean every time. Saves energy, water* and effort - why not use it?*Even if you aren't concerned about water usage due to sufficient supply in your area, more water usage increases energy usage by the water supplier, who has to pass the bills on to someone. It also requires more sewage treatment, which is pretty energy intensive itself.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 10:59:13 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 28, 2020, 10:37:44 pmSounds good, but I don't have the space in my kitchen.QuoteTrue, but water is still cheaper for me than electricity/gas so even if I use a little more water than that, I honestly don't know, since I don't measure, it's still cheaper doing it by hand with cold water. Even if we just consider the environment, not cost, suppose I use double the amount of water per dish than that machine. I doubt that adds up to an extra 1kWh used by the treatment works.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 12:13:59 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 28, 2020, 10:00:03 pmOh god yes. No f••king way I would just wipe off the soapy water! I am very persnickety about my dishes being perfectly clean, and a film of food residue and soap, no matter how dilute, just grosses me out. (And I think you're absolutely right about it being problematic if it contains e.g. raw chicken juice.)Quote from: Zero999 on December 28, 2020, 10:00:03 pmWhich is fundamentally not a particularly water- and energy-efficient way to wash. (But it's how I do my handwashing, too.)Quote from: Zero999 on December 28, 2020, 10:00:03 pmI also don't worry about the volume of water per se; when I was a teen here, they actually taught us we needed to run a bit more water because people were using so little, the sewers didn't always have sufficient flow!I'm fortunate to live in a building with exceptionally good hot water — it always comes out of the tap hot within 3-4 seconds. According to a friend of mine who's a plumbing engineer, that's accomplished by using recirculating pumps that keep the water in the pipes hot (also necessitating a closed-loop system, rather than a branched one). Apparently, while costlier to install, it's both nicer and saves energy (contrary to what my intuition would tell me).Quote from: Zero999 on December 28, 2020, 10:00:03 pmAbsolutely not true any more. Manufacturers' first generation or two of lower-energy products seem to invariably suck, but they then figure it out. My Bosch dishwasher does just fine without using bathtubs of water (and I live alone, so my dishes take a while to pile up!), and so does my toilet, which flushes with more gusto than the water-guzzling old-style toilets my apartments in USA had.Just as I said regarding the gas cans: don't blame the laws on crappy manufacturers who don't manage to make good products. At least not when other manufacturers exist who prove that compliant productscanbe good performers, efficient, and affordable, all at the same time.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 12:18:22 am
content: Any of you who fully understand the consuption of beer from the glass will understand the sacrilege of not rinsing out the detergent.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 12:20:11 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on December 29, 2020, 12:18:22 amSome Miele dishwashers have a mode specifically for drinking glasses that rinses extra well and doesn't use rinse aid, so as to ensure proper beer results! (Not surprising from a German appliance maker.)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 10:34:29 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on December 29, 2020, 12:18:22 amI don't touch alcohol, nasty stuff, so no, I don't understand what you mean with that comment.Quote from: tooki on December 29, 2020, 12:13:59 amDoes it wash cold? If not, I doubt it. Most of the energy consumption in washing dishes is heating the water. I might use more water, but because it's cold, save of the odd item I need hot, I'll use less energy than any dishwasher which heats it up to 50oC.Regarding the toilet: do you live at the top of a block of flats, with a long drop sewage pipe, by any chance? That makes a big difference. I live in a two story house, in a flat area. Both toilets are pretty crappy, but the one on the ground floor is the worse, of the two. My house is relatively new: April 2016.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 12:38:25 pm
content: In the apartment I grew up the situation was reversed as no individual water tanks were used. The flush valve was inside the wall and connected to a thick pipe that came from the massive water tank above the top floor. The issue was that the top floor did not have much pressure.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 01:47:55 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 29, 2020, 10:34:29 amAlcohol is fine when enjoyed in moderation. No need for judginess.Anyhow, residues on glassware can cause the foam ("head") on beer to either go crazy, or to not form at all, depending on the nature of the residue. Since the head is important to the flavor development in a poured beer, it's important to get it right.Residue can also affect how other sparkling beverages behave. Ever noticed how often, pouring Coke into a glass, the first fill takes forever because it foams so much, but refills don't foam at all? Same processes.Quote from: Zero999 on December 29, 2020, 10:34:29 amI was talking about the claim that modern, efficient dishwashers don't work well. There might be some models that suck (which has always been the case), but it's certainly untrue as a blanket statement.Quote from: Zero999 on December 29, 2020, 10:34:29 amNope, I'm actually on the bottom floor.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 05:34:31 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 29, 2020, 01:47:55 pmDon't be overly sensitive. It's my opinion. I don't enjoy the effects of alcohol, even in moderation. It's truly nasty stuff.QuoteI bet there's a fairly long drop before the sewer, otherwise it wouldn't flush so well. When the toilet flushes, the inertia and siphon effect of the water passing down the long pipe, helps suck the rest of the contents of the toilet bowl out. If you've got a short pipe going into the sewer, it won't flush so well.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 08:55:53 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 29, 2020, 01:47:55 pmSo your toilet is on the *bottom* floor?Somebody had to say it...

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 08:57:26 pm
content: Quote from: Circlotron on December 29, 2020, 08:55:53 pmThis thread is in the shitter.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 09:59:30 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 29, 2020, 05:34:31 pmI don't see how the length of the drop makes much if any difference - all the toilet plumbing I'm familiar with is vented very close to the point it joins the drain stack, specifically to PREVENT the trap from being sucked dry by a slug of water going down the pipe.https://www.bhg.com/home-improvement/plumbing/drain-venting/http://blowneyedbeauties.blogspot.com/2013/05/toilet-vent-stack-diagram.html-Pat

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 12:14:51 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 28, 2020, 10:47:10 amI don't have to because it's irrelevant. Look, the law may be well intentioned, and if you read it, it may sound very reasonable but the bottom line is that the result of the law is that a majority of the products on the market which are fully compliant with the law and able to be sold are garbage. Not only are they difficult to use and not fit for the purpose for which they are sold, but they result in a large increase in the amount of raw gasoline and vapors spilled into the environment, and reduced safety because of the way they spill gas all over the place. Blame the manufactures of the cans if you want but that's ignoring the FACT that these problems did not exist prior to the law. It's absolutely irrelevant what the law intended, what problem it was meant to solve, and who the blame is placed on after the fact because the actual result is the problem is worse than it was before. If a container can be sold that is compliant with the law yet results in an increase in spilled fuel and other problems then it's a bad law, period. The problem with the whole thing is people with your attitude who perceive a problem and believe the law is good because it "does something" about the problem, while ignoring the mountains of evidence demonstrating that most of the products on the market which comply with the law do not actually solve the problem, they simply comply with the law as written. What part of this are you failing to grasp? Bad law, end of story.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 12:16:58 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on December 28, 2020, 09:38:08 amYes, I've traveled extensively throughout the Western half of Canada, I've been to several parts of England, I've never watched Fox news in my life. Assume much?And why are you so obsessed with a fucking screw? Can you honestly say with a straight face that mandating a screw makes children safer? I knew how to remove screws by the time I was 3 years old, they're not an obstacle for kids, they're just a nuisance for me. Can you truly not understand how annoying it is to be treated like a child and have a nanny state government trying to micromanage every detail of your life? Does it make you feel smug and superior to mock others for not wanting to be told what to do?Another one for my ignore list...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 12:28:42 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 30, 2020, 12:16:58 amDoes it make you feel smug and superior to mock others for not sharing your belief or your violent opposition to something whichreally doesn't hurt you?Stop choosing to be offended and get a grip.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 02:37:38 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 30, 2020, 12:14:51 amBut it'snotirrelevant. Examining it is necessary to truly understand the problem. Your "solution" of just whining and telling everyone they're wrong doesn't actually solve anything. It doesn't solve the vapor escape problems that existed before, it doesn't solve the usability problems with the shitty cans, and it doesn't solve the vapor escape caused by the shitty cans' shitty usability. All your attitude does is try and shut down discussion, and cause animosity.Quote from: james_s on December 30, 2020, 12:14:51 amIf you'd read the law, you'd know that if those cans are unable to be used without spilling gas, then theyaren'tcompliant with the law (neither as intended nor as written), and the manufacturer needs to be taken to task.Remember: I'mnotsaying thatallfailed laws are written well. Many aren't. Butthisone just isn't an example of a badly designed or badly written law.Quote from: james_s on December 30, 2020, 12:14:51 amDidja actually read my posts? Obviously not:I am absolutelynota blind "well it does something" supporter of bad laws. Iexpresslysaid that if a law is not working as intended, then it should be amended or rescinded. Like… even if you don't agree with my ultimate conclusion, you need to be respectful and fair, and give me credit for the things I said that basically agree with you:Quote from: tooki on December 27, 2020, 12:17:01 amYou certainly cannot claim that I think "eh, the law tried, that's good enough" even distantly agrees with my views.Quote from: james_s on December 30, 2020, 12:14:51 amUhhhh, no. Badmanufacturers, "end of story."(Except that I absolutely don't think that "end of story" is how one should end things like that, because that doesn't resolve the problem. The storyshouldend with the manufacturers being held accountable and/or the law being amended. Foot stomping and whining don't accomplish anything.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 03:02:24 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 29, 2020, 05:34:31 pmThen you say "I don't like it". Saying that something is "nasty" (as in, an inherent trait of the thing, as opposed to youropinionon it) is just plain rude.Quote from: Zero999 on December 29, 2020, 05:34:31 pmI don't believe the physics of siphons work that way. Inertia has nothing to do with it. But moreover, my toilet (like all of them I have ever seen here in Switzerland) is anon-siphontoilet. In my case (like in essentially all modern toilets here) it's awashdown toilet.Assuming your country flag is correct, you're in the UK, where washdown toilets are also the norm. True siphon toilets (the dominant type in my home country of USA) are entirely different beasts.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 09:02:30 am
content: How the hell did coin cell batteries turn into a discussion about water and dishwashers?!Wait... don't answer that.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 11:06:27 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 04, 2021, 09:02:30 amIt's like Godwin's law, but with dishwashers and American jerrycans.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 11:15:09 am
content: Quote from: tooki on January 04, 2021, 03:02:24 amSteve Mould recently mentioned the different types of toilets in connection with syphons:https://youtu.be/D07aJB0BlzwIn the US, sewer lines are vented at the source through a roof vent so any suction would just pull air in from outside. Inertia causes the siphon to continue past the point where air is drawn through.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2021, 09:50:43 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 04, 2021, 09:02:30 amHow did the discussion of coin cell battery safety morph to toilets? I guess they think safety is part of Cisterns Engineering.As for safety, any small parts are dangerous to young kids, especially in the choking area. Toddlers walking around with sharp objects like screwdrivers is also very risky. As is pots with boiling water or whatever with the handles in reach of young children. Also mains walls sockets not covered, especially in countries like Australia with 230 VAC mains. And of course swimming pools. Parents and grandparents should do a serious safety audit of their home.When I was a kid I was sucking a stone and got it trapped in my windpipe. Almost choked to death. As a kid my friends and I threw asbestos fibres at each other at a building site and I had a tor used for hopscotch made of asbestos. When I was about 5, I could not swim but I managed to walk underwater across an irrigation channel on my uncle's farm for a distance of about 4 metres - I was very lucky not to have drowned. "You should not be here" - a quote from the "11.22.63" sci-fi TV Series.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2021, 06:47:25 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 04, 2021, 03:02:24 amYes, nasty, dirty, revolting: all words commonly used to describe things one finds unpleasant. You really need to be less sensitive. I wasn't even replying to you, yet you took offence on someone else's behalf, when they haven't even complained about being offended.QuoteYes, I'm in the UK and it is a washdown toilet. I believe the momentum of the water going down the drain is helping to flush the upstairs toilet, better than the downstairs. They're both exactly the same brand, model and age, so I can't think of any other reason why this is the case. The only other explanation is the downstairs one has some sort of fault, but it's not like it doesn't flush at all, just not so well.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2021, 09:34:09 pm
content: I'm having a late breakfast and wondering if it was necessary to draw in the 'item'.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 04:54:52 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 07, 2021, 06:47:25 pmI’d be looking into the tank. It’s probably not opening its valve as fully, or it’s not filling to the same amount.That graphic, while amusing, is kinda wrong. The water level in the drain pipe cannot be higher than in the bowl. The little dam in the back is what defines the water level. The key thing in a washdown toilet is that the pipe does NOT fill with water. It flows “open” like in a sewer. That image was clearly originally of one with a floor drain, not a wall drain. I’ve added a corrected version using my mad art skillz: fat yellow for the floor drain flow, red for the correct wall drain position, thin yellow for wall drain flow. I’ve also attached an image of a modern designer bowl whose geometry is somewhat closer to your image’s. :p

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 06:29:46 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 08, 2021, 04:54:52 pmI accept that my drawing is wrong, but there was reasoning behind it. I know that the water level in the drain will not sit higher than the bowl in the steady state, but after it's flushed, I thought the inertia due to the water flowing down the drain, would suck on the water in the bowl, momentarily reducing the surface level. I have noticed, that after I flush, the water level in the bowl does drop slightly, before going back up again.QuoteWhat stops the pipe behind the toilet from filling with water?QuoteI think I might talk to my dad who's a chartered surveyor. If he doesn't know what's wrong, he'll be able to recommend a good plumber. It'll have to wait until the COVID situation improves, as the toilet still works and even if it stops, I've still got the upstairs one.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 01:28:19 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 08, 2021, 06:29:46 pmBecause the drain pipes on washdown toilets are huge. They’re not the deliberately thin drains of siphon toilets. This is all explained in the wiki article by the way...As such, there is no “suction” on the water in the bowl. It’s at ambient air pressure.Go to your kitchen sink with a skillet. Put some peas in it. Turn on the tap at full blast. Hold the pan at a 45 degree angle and hold it under the tap. See how the water flushes the peas out of the skillet? You’ve just demonstrated how a washdown toilet works. No suction, vacuum, or siphon involved.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 03:14:11 am
content: Back to the beginning. Has anyone readhttps://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2020L01656at all?(10 Fasteners for doors or covers to compartments holding button / coin batteries must be captive etc.)As i understand, it's enough to stop making shitty flimsy battery covers that fall apart from touch.QuoteQuote from: ratatax on December 22, 2020, 07:09:31 pmWell, actually things are serious:QuoteIn most cases such injury ends up in lifelong disabilities.It seems to me that this is a bit extreme regulation.Manufacturers should mark devices child-safe or not child-safe, maybe making separate version (like tv remotes), that are slightly more expensive due manufacturing efforts.Families with small children should buy child-safe devices and it is THEIR responsibility, to keep non-child-safe devices away. And when such marking "child safe" exist - it will be really trivial. If it is electronic device and you don't see marking "child safe" - keep it damn locked, like a loaded gun.Because some specialized devices have sealing gasket designed for specific way they are opened, and redesigning them to be children-safe wont be trivial, most likely device will disappear from australian market. Like this:https://help.thermoworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Classic-Thermapen-Battery-Cover-Open.jpg

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 04:39:17 am
content: Quote from: nuclearcat on January 10, 2021, 03:14:11 amYeah, the same way all those cheap Chinese electronic products and devices that don’t have the C-tick EMC compliance label have disappeared from the Australian market.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 11:55:38 pm
content: Quote from: ratatax on December 22, 2020, 07:09:31 pmWhat a bullshit argument. You lay blame on the child, when clearly their safety is the responsibility of the parent AND society to implement safety standards. And with respects to safety standards, they come about every time when we identify an issue with products and their negative impact on human life. In this case, we identified that batteries housed in a certain way pose a choking hazard, and is a common enough occurrence that perhaps we should address the issue. And why not? It's not going to impact your life adversely. In fact, we may even see better designed products in the end.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 09:14:39 am
content: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-55630822

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2021, 10:34:30 am
content: This thread went down the toilet. Please don't hijack it with crap.For your information, here is a Youtube video of what happened in Australia that was shown an hour ago on the ABC...https://buttonbatteryingestion.com/en/