Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 08:49:20 pm
content: I scored a new toy on evilBay. The seller made an offer I couldn't refuse. 🫢So far, I couldn't be happier with this thing. It's huge, and the fan is loud, but it performs. 4Hz to 5MHz range, full LCR + Impedance Analyzer.The LCR functions have been straight forward so far. Compensation did not feel long at all compared to my ST2832. Cable compensation works too. 🤯😉Some things take a little fiddling around, as I couldn't find anything in the PDF manual (and I wasn't about to read the HUGE paper manual that came with it). For example, taking screenshots, you have to go to the File button -> Set tab -> then select what you want to capture. It's nice- it saves a CSV + BMP the way I have it set, though a PNG would be preferred.After setting all the corrections, I tested the 100nH inductor on my board using the Hioki L2000 Kelvin clips. I'm glad I made the hole sizes what I did on the LCR Cal Test PCB because the clips are thicker than the ones that came with my Tonghui/SourceTronic LCR.I'm looking forward to learning about the analyzer functions. Though, of course there's also some Option upgrade called the IM9000 that has more features including specific X-Y plots. I don't have that option though. Oh well. For now.Thanks,Josh

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 09:56:47 pm
content: The CSV files definitely seem more useful for sweeps.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 10:15:47 pm
content: QuoteI´m deaf and got space...Nice catch !!!

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 10:19:33 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on August 22, 2024, 10:15:47 pmIt's not that loud...just louder than everything else on my bench. 😉It might be very slightly smaller than the 3532-50. ETA: Deeper, but a little less wide.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 10:40:39 pm
content: Now that I've owned this long enough for a proper warmup, I timed the open/short correction. Either one takes exactly 86 seconds.The graphing features are cool. 😎

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 11:00:46 pm
content: When I have some time, I'll do a fall cal sheet comparison with this, but right now it's super fast to just get screenshots...Here's capacitance. 1pF in my previous post.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 11:05:31 pm
content: If you happen to have a dog I would like to know his favorite snack.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 11:09:43 pm
content: Quote from: temperance on August 22, 2024, 11:05:31 pmlol, sorry. No furry pets. 😉

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 11:14:38 pm
content: Resistance is futile.I don't think I could go back to my other bench LCR meter. I think it's time to sell my ST2832. It's a great meter, but this is...

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 11:24:22 pm
content: Yep, these Hioki LCRs are just in another league, why we have oneCongrats on your new instrumentYou can't appreciate the "total value" until you've spent considerable time with this instrument!!Would really liked to have the IM3570, but it was out of our price range so settled for the IM3536.Check the thread on LCR Software we posted awhile back, suspect this should work with the IM3670 as well!!BTW study up on the Low Z mode, completely understand how this works, it pays dividends with low Z components supporting higher DUT currents than other LCR metersBest,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 12:21:19 am
content: Thank you!I appreciate it a lot already. 😉 Honestly, I thought it would mostly offer more range than my ST2832, but the workflow, speed, etc. is all better for me. The extra range and features are definitely a bonus.I will study up on low Z and the other modes, but I don't promise that I'll ever completely understand any of it. 🤣

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 12:33:21 am
content: Wait until you start characterizing lots of components over frequency, they have the nifty way of allowing various frequency entry modes...you'll seeAnd the ease of changing what's displayed, 4 parameters, and the selective calibration for really quick stuff even tho the calibration is quite quick considering it's covering the extended ranges, and on and on!!All in attempt to keep the user from messing the measurements up!!Don't forget to take advantage of the Guard Terminal Shield Plate, especially with Kelvin Clips. Also, check out the area in the manual about reducing interference & measurement uncertainty by using a Mains Line Choke. We did and think this has helped measurements in our noisy environment.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 01:00:14 am
content: Whatever 4 parameters I want to see at once is my favorite feature so far. Like my resistor measurements above. Previously I had to measure Rdc separate of the other measurements. Now it's half the work!

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 02:11:11 am
content: I almost took apart the L2000 fixture, but I decided not to. Too many screws! Which you should love, Mike. 😉There's no 2 or 4 screw mount option on here like the TH style fixtures. One part has 10, and the other part has 18. Most of those screws hold parts while also holding the enclosure together.

author: zrq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 06:38:19 am
content: What makes IM3570 more expensive than IM3536? Seems IM3536 can work at higher frequency and have better precision, what did I miss?

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 08:00:32 am
content: Quote from: zrq on August 23, 2024, 06:38:19 amHello,Maybe the ANALYZER mode, which allows sweep of frequency, voltage, constant voltage and constant current.I can't see anything like that with the IM3536.Best regardsegonotto

author: zrq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 12:31:43 pm
content: Quote from: egonotto on August 23, 2024, 08:00:32 amIf it's just the sweep it sounds like too much price to pay for something trivially doable with a script. Does it have a higher frequency resolution?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 01:01:47 pm
content: Quote from: zrq on August 23, 2024, 12:31:43 pmThey're different tools. The IM3536 is an LCR. The IM3570 is an Impedance Analyzer & LCR. The IM3570 also has the option for the IM9000 firmware that brings more features with it.For most people, the IM3536 would be a better value. I bought mine used; I don't havenew Hioki money. 😉@mawyatt already developed a script to make plots:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lcr-meter-plot-software/

author: zrq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 02:46:51 pm
content: So my question is what is the difference between a LCR bridge and an impedance analyser.For old/ancient LCR meters (like the GR 1693 I have), they may only have a few selectable test frequencies so no one can claim they are impedance analysers, but I think many modern LCR meters like IM3536 can set arbitrary test frequencies so that's not really a sell point.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 02:55:13 pm
content: I'm new to this tool, so here's some answers from smarter people:https://www.zhinst.com/americas/en/blogs/lcr-meter-vs-impedance-analyzer

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 03:03:47 pm
content: One thing I find awesome about the analyzer is that rather than manually setting every test frequency for use with my LCR Cal Test PCB one at a time, then running the test, then switching, etc. etc... I manually set all the specific frequencies I wanted from 20Hz to 5MHz to run as a sweep (I chose 13 points). Then I can just hit the save button, and I have a CSV spreadsheet with my specific values that I can copy and paste into my Excel spreadsheet...and a graphic plot as well.I would say this is a pretty basic and lazy use of a powerful feature to save myself time and effort to get the same results that would take significantly longer otherwise. I'm okay with that. 😉

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 03:38:28 pm
content: Here's the manual for the IM3536 for those interested.https://www.gmciuk.com/manuals/hioki-im3536_manual_548250.pdfBest,

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 05:16:30 pm
content: Some plots of a 0.001 and 0.01 ohm 1% 2512 Resistors over here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sensitive-lcr-meter-measurements/This is using the IM3536 with our Custom Split-Kelvin SMD fixture and software mentioned by Josh above.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lcr-meter-plot-software/Best

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2024, 12:58:14 am
content: These capacitance graphs are interesting. I have the spreadsheets too, so I might plot the useable frequency ranges for each on a graph to see how it all looks together. I might wait until next week when I do the full LCR Cal Test PCB comparison with the ST2832 before I put it up for sale.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2024, 01:17:33 am
content: Believe the IM3570 and IM3536 share the same basic command sets, so you should be able to use our plotting routines with the 3570 if you want.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2024, 01:59:25 am
content: Thank you, I'm sure they do. I might try the software out eventually, but I don't have the meter connected via USB; it's only connected via LAN.I do like the graphs that come from the analyzer. It's interesting to see the frequency sweeps. It seems to me that it makes the valid test frequency range more obvious. The funny thing is that I thought it was slow, and then I remembered I have avg set to 16 still, and apparently that carried over to the analyzer. Next time I'm going to try either less samples, or no averaging and see how fast the sweep from 20Hz to 5MHz goes.Have you seen the IM9000 firmware option? That's also interesting, with more plot types available. I don't have that option currently.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2024, 07:24:35 pm
content: BTW check out the large protection range the IM3536 has, expect the same for the IM3570Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2024, 08:49:37 pm
content: That's cool. My manual didn't have that graph, but it did have this:

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2024, 11:49:19 pm
content: I was right about correction timing. 1:26 for the Hioki. ~1:25 for the ST2832.

author: The Electrician
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2024, 04:11:06 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 22, 2024, 10:19:33 pmCongrats on the score!I've had my Im3570 for over 10 years. Search for "hioki" under my handle. I've posted a lot showing IM3570 results like these:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/capacitor-measurements-on-an-impedance-analyzer/msg178362/#msg178362https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/measuring-very-low-esr/msg1313277/#msg1313277

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2024, 01:24:06 pm
content: The IM3570 was what we wanted but had to settle for the IM3536 a few years back. We needed traceability, so a used 3570 would need to have a valid Full Instrument Calibration or we would need to have this done before use, putting the cost above our limited budget.So we've just resolved to creating custom PC and RPi plotting routines to assist the IM3536 (and TH2830) in creating nice plots like the IM3570 can directly produce.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2024, 01:38:55 pm
content: Quote from: The Electrician on August 27, 2024, 04:11:06 amThanks! It's a wonderful tool and a joy to work with so far.Now that you mention it, I've actually seen those threads. I remember the SRF conversation lol.Thanks,Josh

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 11:43:52 pm
content: I guess it was only a matter of time, but here's the inside of the L2000 fixture. Looks like exceptional quality and design to me. I'm not taking apart the clips. 😉

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 12:00:48 am
content: QuoteYou can see it in the second picture.Shaken, not stirred...ehhh...crimped, not soldered.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 03:12:15 pm
content: Josh,Can you tell if the Kelvin wire shields follow down the clip handles, or the unshielded blades like the Tonghui Kelvin Clips?Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 03:20:06 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 01, 2024, 03:12:15 pmI can't tell. There's no way to peak inside without disassembling the clips. They're fully insulated for sure (see photo), which makes me want to believe they're fully shielded too. For the retail price, they sure as hell should be.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 12:30:11 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 01, 2024, 03:20:06 pmSetup the Kelvin Clips measuring a leaded 1~10pF Mica cap at 100KHz, then slide hand around on clips "H" handle and remove hand while watching readings. Do this test with the Tonghui and Hioki Kelvin Clips and note the effects of the hand around the clip "H" handles.If the Hioki are significantly less sensitive to hand placement than the Tonghui, then likely the shields extend down the Clip handles. We know the Tonghui is sensitive as it has the connection blades unshielded extending up thru the Clip handles like the cheap Kelvin Clips you see everywhere.These work fine at DC or very low frequencies, but not as frequency increases, and why we prefer the various other type fixtures available or by custom design/construction/modification.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 12:49:58 am
content: I can do that test with the Hioki, but the Tonghui is packed up to be sold.The L2000 is rated DC to 8MHz, I sincerely doubt that it's not shielded in the clip handles. I just read the (attached) manual, and I never noticed the arrows for correction before. Oops.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 01:11:10 am
content: Hopefully they are shielded to the tip. Even coming from Hioki we wouldn't put much faith in Kelvin Clip measurements at 5MHz, much less 8MHz. Just too many almost uncontrollable variables at playDo take note of the data sheet and how Hioki recommends the Short Compensation, so many folks don't pay attention to the actual Kelvin Tip Identification (all our Kelvin Clips have Identification on each Tip, Hc, Hp, Lc, Lp wether from OEM or we added such.If you carefully trace the LCR Meter currents thru the Kelvin Clips you'll see why this is important for very low Z measurements and this applies to 4 wire DMM measurements as well.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 01:16:45 am
content: I feel like at some point I need to let you borrow them to put them through some tests. 😉

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 01:36:52 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 02, 2024, 12:30:11 amThe closest Mica that (I can remember) I stock is 50pF.Here's the results with that:100kHz:50.4969pF (normal)50.4591pF (touched)500kHz:50.5012pF (normal)50.4378pF (touched)1MHz:50.6144pF (normal)50.5695pF (touched)2MHz:51.1630pF (normal)51.1161pF (touched)5MHz:54.0836pF (normal)54.0478pF (touched)When I say touched, I mean I squeezed one of the H handles in my hand. The effect wasn't that different across the board. Also should note there was maybe 10 minutes of warmup time.Thanks,Josh

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 01:45:40 am
content: See if you can find something under 10pF, you want the DUT impedance to be high to "see" the hand effects. A C0G 10pF leaded ceramic should work.Make measurements with no hands, then holding Kelvin Clips.Ideally the shield should make your hand effects minimal. The less the shield follows down the Clip handle to the tip, the more influence your hands have.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 01:48:09 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 02, 2024, 01:45:40 amCan I use them on my LCR Cal Test PCB? I have 1pF or 10pF on there I can test the clips with if that's okay.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 02:15:58 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 02, 2024, 01:48:09 amSure, you are just looking for the effects of your hands on the Kelvin Clips Handles. Small effect likely they are well shielded!!Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 02:24:03 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 02, 2024, 02:15:58 amHere's 10pF. The larger values are untouched, and the lower values are with my palm lightly pressed against the H handle.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 02:24:57 am
content: And here's 1pF. I was generally careful to avoid pushing the handle too hard, but ya know how it goes. 😉

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 02:31:51 am
content: That's more than we expected if the handles hosted shielded wires. If you have any other type Kelvin Clips would be worth a comparison.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 02:53:53 am
content: TH26011CS 10pF...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 02:55:14 am
content: TH26011CS 1pF...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 02:56:44 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 02, 2024, 02:31:51 amLooks a little better than the TH26011CS. The L2000 was also more stable with the values on screen.Average changes:L2000: 0.11805pFTH26011CS: 0.3906pFIt's not quite 4 times better, but pretty close.ETA: Even though the TH26011CS wasn't as stable, it still it did surprisingly well in the 1MHz range considering it's only rated officially up to 100kHz.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 09:41:21 pm
content: QuoteThe “official rating” is ultimately just a sentence in the product description; there is no data sheet with the corresponding specifications and what they are based on.I would rather see it as a recommendation, so that you are still on the “safe side” when measuring with such cables, with regard to the specification of the measuring device.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 10:10:24 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on September 03, 2024, 09:41:21 pmAgreed. But when there's no datasheet, a product description on the manufacturer's website is the next best thing. 😉

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 10:46:25 pm
content: I see things a little differently in principle.Anyone who, like ST for example, adorns themselves with the ISO certificate should also be able to provide corresponding documents in accordance with the ISO standards.They don't, they can't.A product description is basically just a lot of nonsense if none of the things described are traceable.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 11:15:54 pm
content: I agree with all of that too, but you're talking about your job's needs with traceable everything. I'm measuring crap in my home office. 😉

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 11:25:04 pm
content: That has nothing to do with it.YOU are not Iso certified.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 11:26:06 pm
content: I don't wanna be, that sounds invasive! 😉

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2024, 01:55:08 am
content: I gotta send a big thank you out to@mawyatt. Constantly reminding us of the importance of proper open/short correction really helps when trying to find specific characteristics for a component.For example, getting the open and short distances correct (and remembering to correct the cable length) was essential to get the right values I needed for a 1nF cap for the dissipation factor test on my lcr cal test PCB.I had to cut a piece of 12AWG copper wire the right length for the 1206 capacitor so the results would make sense. I used a chopstick handle that was about the right size for open compensation. It worked pretty well. 😉This capacitor model was all too low:But this one was close to my target of 0.00010:Thanks, Mike!-Josh

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2024, 02:07:23 pm
content: You are welcome Josh, that's what we are here forNice work with your Hioki IM3570 and hopefully fully calibrated IM3532-50!!Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 05:31:15 pm
content: I decided to screw around with the "LCR Meter Sample Application" from Hioki. The UI is mediocre, but it works. It looks a lot better than the old one, so I'm curious if I can get it to work with the 3532-50.It also has a sweep direct to Excel function, which is cute. It didn't use the analyzer mode for this, so it seems useful for those without it.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 07:42:35 pm
content: The "LCR Meter Sample Application" is a little goofy with the analyzer features. Scaling is odd. It saves a .jpg but labels it a .bmp so IrfanView gets mad and fixes it.It seems like a couple steps forward in some ways, and a couple steps backwards compared to the screen captures directly from the device.ETA: Added screen capture from IM3570.

author: The Electrician
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 10:23:47 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 07, 2024, 01:55:08 amIt looks to me like you don't have cable length set correctly.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 11:01:35 pm
content: Quote from: The Electrician on September 08, 2024, 10:23:47 pmI was using this thingamabob. 😉

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 02:43:20 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 11, 2024, 08:58:44 pmHmm.. I have no serious complaints about the ST42 in terms of ESR measurements; based on your photos, there are more questions about the Hioki results.He is trying to measure capacitance at a frequency of 100 kHz, but it is clear that this is not easy for him, because the capacitor is already close to or has reached its resonant frequency and it is already more like an inductance than a capacitance. This is one of the reasons why the real capacitance of capacitors of this size is measured far from any resonances at a frequency of 100-120 Hz and this condition is directly stated in the documentationFor example, I took a Hitano EXR 1000mkFx50V capacitor similar to yours, as well as a URL108MOJF08 1000mkFx6.3V polymer capacitor and measured them on DE-5000 and ST42. I attach the results below. I have indicated in red those conditions that you need to pay attention to when assessing the quality of a capacitor. The test results are basically very similar, but with one very important caveat. ST42 tweezers are very sensitive in the range below 10 milliohms. The readings in this area are very unstable and highly dependent on close contact with the part.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 05:13:42 pm
content: Quote from: indman on September 12, 2024, 02:43:20 pmI completely agree with you, it's essentially pointless to test C of a 1mF cap at 100kHz. The only reason I test the cap at that range is for an ESR comparison to the datasheet that claims ESR ratings were tested at 100kHz across their full range of capacitors...which I still think is weird. If the cap only shows the correct C value at 120Hz, why wouldn't you take an ESR measurement there too?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 05:15:57 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 12, 2024, 01:08:47 pmWarming up the meter now. X or Y or both log scale?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 06:04:34 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 12, 2024, 05:13:42 pmBecause the ESR at 120 Hz is not so interesting.The lowest possible ESR plays a role in switched power supplies, hence the 100 kHz measurement frequency.

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 06:06:44 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 12, 2024, 05:13:42 pmThis seems logical and the RLC meter allows you to measure this. But what will the ESR result at 120Hz give you?It will be highly dependent on the reactive constituting of the capacitor.It is for this reason and because the natural resonance frequency of standard aluminum electrolytic capacitors is usually less than or close to 100kHz. I.e.. to measure ESR, the frequency of the oscillator must be tuned until the minimum reading at the natural resonance frequency Z(w) = ESR is obtained. In such a case, the result will not depend on either the capacitance or the equivalent series inductance.In addition, the ESR of capacitors is of great practical importance for impulsed devices that operate at frequencies much higher than 100Hz, that is, at tens or hundreds of kilohertz.P.SMartin72already beat me to it, but I didn't copy what he said.I also forgot to add that at a frequency of 120 Hz a very important parameter of the quality of the capacitor is also measured - this is the loss tangent or D (dissipation factor). For high-quality electrolytic capacitors, it should not exceed a value of 0.09-0.10.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 07:33:53 pm
content: Thank you both! More specific things to test at specific frequencies. Fun! 😉

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 08:17:20 pm
content: Here's the cap sweep done a couple different ways. I used the exported data from the "LCR Meter Sample Application" to create the Excel spreadsheet, and then the data exported directly from the IM3570 to create spreadsheet v2. The data appears the same on the chart, despite being separate test runs.

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 05:39:01 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 12, 2024, 08:17:20 pmIn confirmation of the above theses about the resonant frequency of the capacitor, your first screenshot shows very well that after 38kHz the capacitance 1mF miraculously acquires the properties of inductance.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 04:00:34 pm
content: One should consider measuring Capacitor ESR at or near the frequency of intended use for the best results within a circuit. If this isn't known beforehand, or for general purpose use, Capacitor characterizing over a broad frequency range and creating a plot of ESR vs frequency seems worthwhile.Also note that certain type capacitors (high dielectric ceramic types) have widely varying parameters with applied voltage, temperature and age which creates a difficult and time consuming effort to characterize.Best,

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 04:16:47 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 12, 2024, 08:17:20 pmTry plotting with Log Log scales, this will show Z better over a wide frequency range.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 04:55:26 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 13, 2024, 04:16:47 pmThat's super easy to mess with in the spreadsheet.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 08:53:16 pm
content: Nice plotBest

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 11:15:28 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 31, 2024, 11:43:52 pmWhat is the point of going from 4 BNCs on the instrument, through a box and cable to another box with 4 SMA?, and then out to the probes? Why not directly connect a set of probes to the instrument BNC? What is the point of the extra boxes and cables in the signal path here? I would understand if the probes and BNC box was one unit, but separate probes with SMAs? The frequency only goes to 5MHz. BNC is more than fine for that.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 11:23:57 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on September 13, 2024, 11:15:28 pmI would guess that since they consider the kelvin clips themselves a replaceable "wear & tear" item, they kept them separate. My meter only goes to 5MHz, but the probes are rated to 8MHz.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2024, 12:06:00 am
content: @ Smokey,Think Hioki uses the double box with cable for other fixtures as well, probably for much higher frequency use. Don't believe those are SMA connectors, they look bigger and being a screw type rather than bayonet should have better signal fidelity than BNC. Note how the cables are attached in the box, without any exposed center conductors, and they look expensive which shouldn't surprise anyone!!Agree does seem odd tho.Best,

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2024, 01:43:15 pm
content: @ Josh, can you identify the type connectors used for the cables with Kelvin Clips?Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2024, 06:26:33 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 14, 2024, 01:43:15 pmSMA is correct. I'm not surprised. It makes sense to use something standard, and just pick something high quality.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2024, 10:08:34 pm
content: Mike, help!I built your cool SMT fixture, but I don't have a 3D printer, and the rubber clamp tip doesn't work at all for 805 parts.What do you suggest I use instead to secure the SMT parts to the fixture?Thanks,Josh

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2024, 10:14:30 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 14, 2024, 10:08:34 pmGot a matching bolt, thread tap and a drill ?Turn a piece of nylon shaft to a blunt point, drill and tap it and fit it to a suitable bolt/threaded shaft.....or some combination of this.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2024, 10:22:25 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 14, 2024, 10:14:30 pmI was thinking of getting a nylon screw and using that instead, but figured I'd ask Mike first since he uses this fixture setup.The way the clamp drops down is a little awkward too, so I'm not sure the nylon bolt idea will work great either.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2024, 10:36:13 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 14, 2024, 10:22:25 pmHmmm, or machine the existing rubber foot to something more conducive to working with tiny parts......

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2024, 11:04:51 pm
content: It looks like a nutcracker.And that should have some advantage over the “normal” SMD fixtures?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 12:01:59 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 14, 2024, 10:36:13 pmThe biggest problem with the existing rubber foot is that it's too soft. It doesn't firmly press well, and tends to move the DUT off the traces. Then the DUT is stuck to the foot and needs to be pulled off.The traces need precision placement of the DUT, but the rubber foot has moved it in every attempted use. I can't do short correction because the 0Ω resistor fails to short the traces when the foot is applied. At best, I've had 2 of 4 traces shorted. Even using a piece of copper gets pushed out of the way.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 12:04:00 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on September 14, 2024, 11:04:51 pmThe traces are separated so it's 4-wires all the way to the DUT.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 12:26:10 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 14, 2024, 10:08:34 pmKeep the large rubber tip, you'll need it for larger SMD components like power inductors or large chip caps. On the other bolt end add a tapered plastic tip, just about anything will work. You could get a plastic or wooden rod/dowel and turn down the tip, then drill and tap the other side for the bolt. However you do this, don't engage the bolt too deep into the tip as it distorts the fields more than the plastic tip.Edit: The nylon screw/bolt is a good idea as you can easily taper the end to a dull point. Also did you add a internal shield within the box? This is worthwhile if you didn't.Experiment with the Plunger base height above the PCB, we found ~10mm works with the Tip & Plunger fixture we have (there are a few types), and most of the SMD stuff we work with. You can fine tune the height with the bolt adjustment for different similar physical size SMD components.When you use the fixture don't use too much force, often just a light pressure from the tip is enough. Get yourself some precision (0.5% if possible) 1, 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50 and 100 milli-Ω 2512 resistors, start off with these larger SMD components and study the profile of the SMD components, some of the SMD resistors have the contact area recessed and often they make better contact flipped over face down.We've found the larger more expensive quality SMD components seem to be easier to work with, altho we've tested some 0603 and 0805 components with patience.Make sure the SMD and Fixture surface area is clean, we often clean with IPA and a cotton swab. Play around with how to engage the contacts (Hc, Hp, Lp, Lc) on the two SDM end conductive surfaces. Sometimes you'll get ridiculous readings, either way too high, low or negative, this is due to not having all 4 contacts engaged.Don't forget to make a good Zero Ohm Shunt, critical for quality low Z measurements.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 12:40:34 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 15, 2024, 12:26:10 amI think I will try the nylon screw first, as it's the simplest answer. I have a laser cutter, which I used to cut a 6mm thick piece of acrylic for the spacer.I ground the paint off at contact points so the whole box is a better shield (and has continuity to the PCB ground plane), but I'm guessing you're asking if I added a shield plate between the H and L sides? I didn't do that yet.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 12:51:39 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 15, 2024, 12:04:00 amCorrect, the actual SMD component conductive ends make the Hcur to Hpot connections and Lcur to Lpot connections.This reduces contact measurement variations which are pronounced in low Z DUTs with the normal SMD fixture. If you look at the simple model we made for the normal SMD fixture, the Hcur and Hpot connections are made at the thin brass bolt end which screws into the plunger base, same for Lcur and Lpot on the other plunger.So from this point to the plunger tip is un-sensed on each plunger by Hpot and Lpot respectively. The plunger tip to DUT impedance variations are also un-sensed on each DUT end which produces a significant measurement uncertainty for low Z components that can't be compensated by the Zero/Short Calibration. A little experimentation with known precision low Z components like low mill-Ω 2512 precision resistors for example will show this uncertainly, at least it certainly did with us, which is why we developed this Split-Kelvin SMD Fixture.The two resistors on the PCB are for providing a known resistance between Hcur and Hpot and same for Lcur and Lpot. This allows easier Open Cal but has some effects on such. Think we discussed this elsewhere, but can illustrate again if needed.Edit: Just noted that you don't have a ground wire from Plunger Fixture to Case. You want Plunger Arm at Ground potential for better HF measurements. Also wrt to internal case shield, just a thin Cu sheet or FR4 between the H and L sides works, if you don't have any Cu sheet or FR4 then cut a section out of a Tin Can and solder to a BNC terminal or terminal wire running along the BNCs.BTW Fixture looks good, nice work JoshBest,

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 01:24:59 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 15, 2024, 12:01:59 amTry raising the Plunger fixture a little higher so the plunger tip engages the SMD at ~90 degrees with the Plunger "Arm" ~parallel to the PCB surface.It's difficult to see the DUT slide with the larger rubber tip, so a thin tip should help. Adjust the heights until the DUT doesn't slide and is pressured almost vertically. As mentioned in our case ~10mm was about right. A small amount of sliding isn't bad as it "scrubs" the surfaces which helps with contact.Also, start off with larger SMDs like 2512 resistors to get familiar with the way this fixture works best.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 01:36:38 am
content: If the plunger tip is short, what's the difference with the base height matter? Doesn't one length/height make up for the other? I would think 4mm higher base, or 4mm shorter plunger arm should have the same effect?

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 02:59:26 am
content: There's limits in how the bolt can be used for adjustment, especially so if you use both ends of the bolts as we do. Usually you want the plunger tip to engage the SMD DUT almost vertical and still cover most of the expected components. Having the plunger base too short limits the DUT SMD height, having it too high limits thin SMDs.We found ~10mm standoff for the Plunger base has worked well for us. We played around with spacers and washers, then 3D printed the standoff plate.BTW we found you don't want the Plunger Fixture to be extremely rigid, some slight flexing is desirable as in "springiness".Play around with various adjustments and configurations until you find something to your likingBest,

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 09:11:24 am
content: I would like the Gerber file of the board...

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 02:27:18 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on September 15, 2024, 09:11:24 amWe've posted details on the thread dedicated to this Unique LCR SMD Fixture. This includes Gerber files for the latest and previous versions of the PCB, and 3D print files for the Plunger Tip and Support Top and Bottom.Let's try and keep all the discussions related to such on this over here.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/different-type-lcr-smd-fixture/BTW we have plans to publish the details of this fixture as well.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 11:07:49 pm
content: I posted in the other thread, but I'll post it here also since it's relevant to my IM3570. The nylon screw was a success. No modifications, and the screw is flexible enough I can safely position it on 805 SMT stuff with no trouble.Thanks,Josh

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 11:07:18 pm
content: I was curious about how the resistance ranges functioned differently between the IM3570, and the 3532-50 so I popped it open and took a photo. The design of the IM3570 made it so I couldn't answer my question without a lot of effort, so I only took the one photo and closed it back up.It's clearly a nice design. It looks like the top PCB doesn't need to be unmounted, and that there are separate screws for the top plate to be removed with the PCB still attached. But I didn't have the time or ambition to go further now.The Xilinx Spartan chip says XC3SD1800A. Some of the others are easier to read, some are not. 😉Thanks,Josh

author: zrq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 06:00:00 am
content: Another question that may worth real money is there significant hardware similarity with the lower end Hioki IM353x that allows an upgrade.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 04:13:28 pm
content: Quote from: zrq on September 20, 2024, 06:00:00 amIt's a possibility, but I slightly doubt Hioki is as lazy as Tonghui. 😉We'd need some teardown photos of both models. I'll eventually take more/better photos of mine, but it will probably be a while before I get around to it.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 05:24:18 pm
content: I submitted the following suggestions to improve the IM3570:PNG format instead of BMP for screen captures (PNG is ideal both for image quality, and to be able to share with peers).Custom colors for screen and/or screen captures, or at least an option to invert the screen colors on capture.Axis markers for analyzer to make reading and sharing info easier (why is test voltage on the same line as the frequency axis?? A lot of screen space is wasted in this regard).Screen capture of any screen, instead of just measurement screen (to share settings, etc. Currently need to take photographs of the meter).A simple way to get screen captures remotely, either via software app or a built-in web server on the IM3570 (basic functional control, and/or only remote viewing and screen capturing would be fine, though full control would be great if possible). (The LCR Meter Sample Application is not sufficient, but not terrible either.)Screensaver option with options for: Off, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 60 minutes.The service manager responded:QuoteHopefully, they'll do at least some of them, but the canned response doesn't give me a lot of hope lol. I guess we'll see.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 06:27:36 pm
content: QuoteThis seems somehow familiar....

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 06:35:17 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on September 23, 2024, 06:27:36 pm247k BMP vs. 7.31k PNG might seem a little familiar too. 😉

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 09:09:39 pm
content: I find it interesting that not only Easttester has a “problem” with providing a universal screenshot function.So this doesn't seem to be trivial.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 09:19:47 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on September 23, 2024, 09:09:39 pmIMO it is trivial. The problem with the Hioki is that there are no physical buttons. The "Save" button appears on the screen to capture screenshots, but only on the measurement screens. So they would need to add that additional touchscreen button on all screens when activated. Which really should be active by default.In the Tonghui LCRs, you hold the period.button down and it captures any screen.Since it has physical buttons, EastTester could follow the TH/ST logic and assign a long press to any button to capture a screen as long as it doesn't already have a long press function.Really what it comes down to with Hioki, is that they didn't see a need for the function, so they didn't add it. Like the other stuff I mentioned in my list. It all seems basic to me, but apparently nobody requested those things.

author: points2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 03:07:24 am
content: hi KungFuJosh,Given yours posts... you know a lot about this device & LCR in general.I admit I have a limited use of my Shannon Tweezer LCR meter (bought because not too expensive, but so far : I admit I lack some basic knowlegde to get the most out of it).When you have time... please anwser the following questions, to help "dummies" to understand how usefull a LCR-meter is : (or anyone that masters this topics like KungFuJosh :-) )1. for what kind of inquiry, you need to use the Hioki ? in practice.Is it vs PCB traces impedance ?Is it just components on PCB measurement ?Is it about trace impedance vs power delivery ? or signal delivery ?I guess you use it for more fine measurement than a Shannon Tweezer user :-)2. the Hioki extends to MHz range : how this makes a diff vs low end LCR-meter that don't go so high ?3. related to previous question : what's the diff vs the results given by the Hoiki vs a cheap LCR-meter ?4. using the Hoiki, is the limiting factor vs "fair results" => the fixture ? I mean : the way to measure matters a lot vs the results ?5. as a dummy vs LCR-meters, when I see 5MHz MAX, my brain struggles to find how usefull such a tool can be when I deal with signals far above 100MHz...Is this Hoiki relevant vs trace Z measurements when the signal is so far away from the "5MHz max" ?I stop here. :-)Anyone can reply to help the dummies.And of course, anyone can urge the dummies to get more info here & there to be "less" dummy vs that topic :-)

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 01:13:10 pm
content: I know a bit, but there are certainly people on here that know a lot more than me. I'll take a shot at your questions anyway. 😉1. The simple answer is that I use the Hioki when I need higher accuracy, or a higher test frequency range.2. Higher frequency range is required for specific devices or component values. For example, some components like 100nH or some 100µH inductors are tested at 1MHz or higher. Many high value capacitors will require low frequency testing, some lower than 100Hz.3. Accuracy and the ability to test devices that won't work in the limited frequency range of cheaper meters.4. Testing method (fixtures or otherwise) and open/short/cable correction always matter if accuracy is desired.5. This one is a little beyond me. I use the Hioki to test devices looking for good accuracy. Some devices are beyond the capabilities of it. If you're trying to test a device for a higher frequency range, you might get a general idea. For more accuracy, you need a tool capable of testing in that range like a VNA.Thanks,Josh

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 09:26:32 pm
content: Quote from: points2 on September 24, 2024, 03:07:24 am5Mhz test frequency is already very high compared to the usual LCR meters.Of course, components that are used in the “right” RF range, these 5Mhz seem too low.But that doesn't have to be the case, with 5Mhz you can definitely capture values in the nH/lower pF range.What you can't capture is the self-resonance of the components.If the component is known from the data sheet, you can confirm its value or check whether it still has this value.It becomes more difficult when measuring unknown components.Not in terms of the actual value, since a high-quality device like the Hioki is helpful, with its rather high measuring frequency.If the data sheet is missing, however, you don't know the self-resonance frequency and usually can't capture it with a measuring frequency of up to 5Mhz.That's a bit of a showstopper, but you need a VNA to avoid unpleasant surprises when you're repairing/creating a high-frequency circuit with unknown components.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 10:56:34 pm
content: Had some fun testing a GMR100HTBFA10L0 2512 0.01ohm 1% resistor with version 5A of Mike's test fixture. It works great, I'm a big fan.This resistor is too thin for my regular SMT test fixture.Thanks,Josh

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 11:12:19 pm
content: The Hioki is simply a great tool.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 11:33:37 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on September 28, 2024, 11:12:19 pmAbsolutely! And Mike's test board is awesome too.Here's a TLRP3A20CR005FTE 2512 0.005ohm 1%:Measured at 300kHz in case somebody wants to compare. 😉

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 11:40:41 pm
content: QuoteTo really compare it, I would need exactly your resistor and your test fixture.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 11:46:40 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on September 28, 2024, 11:40:41 pmWell, those two resistors are in the box with your PCB, so... 😉

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 02:15:15 pm
content: Results look spot on, how is the repeatability?Did you get a gold plated PCB, or rough up the contact surface?Your results verify what we believed with this Split-Kelvin Technique when properly utilized and applied can produce excellent results down in the milli-Ω impedance levels and not just at DCBest,

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 02:40:32 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on September 28, 2024, 11:40:41 pmThis Split-Kelvin Technique removes a major part of the measurement uncertainty with the fixture and DUT contact parameters if applied properly as Josh has demonstrated and we've mentioned earlier during the development.Allowing better understanding of the DUT details and not contaminated by the fixture/contact artifacts at milli-Ω impedance levels was the goal of this undertaking which apparently has been achieved.One is somewhat reliant on the precision DUT to "verify" any result, with quality precision SMD components utilized one can glean details with reasonable fidelity without the need for the same actual fixture and same SMD. These 2512 precision resistors utilized are an excellent resource for precision milli-Ω SMD DUT references for low Z references, and not expensive.Same goes for high Z measurements, where one can utilize either the Split-Kelvin or Standard type SMD fixtures, here the precision C0G/NP0 SMD capacitors are an excellent low cost DUT SMD reference for low capacitance values.Your Tonghui ST meter with the Split-Kelvin Fixture should produce results similar to what has been presented, not sure how the ET will behave, pay attention to the reversed meter terminals, probably won't matter with this fixture tho.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 05:20:17 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 29, 2024, 02:15:15 pmNo issues with repeatability.Yes, I usually get gold plated PCBs unless the cost is crazy. Here I figured it would be beneficial. Total cost was $20 for 5 PCBs including the slow shipping, so I was okay with it. 😉I think the split design on this is great. The only issue is making sure the DUT contacts all 4 pads well, which requires paying good attention when inserting the DUT. For these low Z parts, I tested continuity on all 4 pads before reinstalling the fixture on the LCR to confirm the DUT was seated well.Thank you for sharing the PCB design!Thanks,Josh

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 06:09:13 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 29, 2024, 05:20:17 pmRepeatability was key in the development, we couldn't get good results with low Z SMDs before this custom fixture, even the Standard SMD fixtures weren't very good.That's really good, $20 for 5 gold plated custom PCBs with shipping!!! Did the PCBs come from JLCPCB (where ours are from)?Glad you could use the design, wish others would note the advantage of this technique, it's not like it's expensive.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 06:56:37 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 29, 2024, 06:09:13 pmMy generic SMD fixture is ok, and usually pretty stable, but doesn't fit all SMD stuff. For example, the 10mΩ resistor was too thin, and fell beneath the contacts.Yes, JLC. I use JLC for most stuff, sometimes WellPCB for more robust stuff or weirder details. $20 was including removing the order number, shipping, ENIG, PayPal fee, etc. For more expensive PCB orders I pay for the better shipping. In this case, better shipping cost as much as the PCBs, so I took the risk. 😉 It was still pretty fast though. Order placed on 9/15 and delivered on 9/27.Thanks,Josh

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 12:26:04 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 29, 2024, 06:56:37 pmIf the Standard SMD Fixture is like ours, getting repeatable results for say a 10 miil-Ω 2512 Resistor within 100~200uΩ was extremely difficult. The plunger contact impedance was the culprit, which of course is partially removed by the Split-Kelvin TechniqueOf course the Standard Fixture works quite well for higher Z SMD components, where the contact variations have less impact on the overall DUT measurement.Best

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 12:39:38 am
content: Ha, well, I couldn't even get the low Z stuff on my generic fixture. 😉

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 02:05:29 pm
content: Yes very difficult with the Standard Fixture. The Zero/Short calibration gives a hint at why this is so. If we do a Zero/Short cal and then come back and make a Zero/Short measurement later we don't get anything repeatable around 0.000Ω for the two Standard SMD Fixtures we have/had (one has been converted to accept External DC Bias).In defense of these Standard SMD Fixtures they were not intended for low Z measurements because the Force and Sense Terminals on the Hi and Low sides make contact at the thin brass bolt at the plunger bottom. This leaves the entire Low and Hi plunger large diameter cores and thin tip impedances un-sensed as well as the DUT contact impedance on each side un-sensed, which creates an overall high built-in uncertainty in low Z measurements, and this shows up in the Zero/Short Cal attemptsHowever, the Split-Klevin Technique SMD Fixture provides a remedy for such and produces excellent low Z results with good repeatability as you've demonstratedSimply stated this technique works and works quite well for low Z SMD measurements within capable handsBest

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 03:10:19 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 30, 2024, 02:05:29 pmNot only that, it gives better low Z results on a broader frequency range. I've found with other fixtures it's not too hard to get 0.00mΩ Z at 1kHz after short cal, but going higher will shift that (not too much, but still not 0.00). With your 5A fixture it showed 0.00mΩ at 100kHz, which I don't think I've seen with another fixture.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 05:01:43 pm
content: Yep it's pretty good all aroundIf you sit back and think about what's happening with the fixture and DUT, especially wrt the current path from Hcur to Lcur and how the DUT voltage is sensed at Hpot and Lpot which happens to be on the DUT. Maybe sketch things out electrically, then it does make sense it performs rather well across the rangeWe have some solid copper 0.55mm sheet cut to about 2512 size we use for short, which seems to work OK. What do you use for a short and open?Best

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 06:04:49 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 30, 2024, 05:01:43 pmI used a smashed piece of 12AWG copper wire for short, but I'm ordering CSS2H-2512C-000E and WSL251200000ZEA9 to test for short cal.I don't use anything for open cal since the pads are always the same distance from each other.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 05:36:36 pm
content: I got the 0Ω resistors I mentioned above, and had some fun with 1mΩ and a 0.5mΩ resistors. 1mΩ was easily repeatable. 0.5mΩ was repeatable, but annoying to seat correctly. I wound up putting it in upside-down, and it made contact better. I guess the bottom wasn't very flat.Jumper resistor shown in the photo:Thanks,Josh

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 01:41:30 am
content: This was interesting. Today I used the IM3570 to test some guitar pickups I recently acquired. Pickup nerds usually like to see Ls @ 1kHz, Rdc, Cp @ 100kHz, Q @ 3kHz.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 01:03:37 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on October 04, 2024, 05:36:36 pmWe've seen this a few times as well, flipping the SMD DUT over gives better results sometimes. DUT surface planarity is likely the cause.Nice close up image of the Bourns Zero Ohm Shunt in the fixtureI like the slight bowed nature of this shunt and how we made our zero ohm shunt earlier from Cu sheet. This places the force of the plunger alone the edge of the shunt and give a slight "scrubbing" action as the plunger slight force pushes down and slightly spreads the shunt.Have you done any repeatability testing with this shunt? Like make a Zero Ω Cal, make some DUT low Ω Resistors, then return a few hours later and repeat checking the shunt for readings and the low Ω Resistors, and maybe perform this over a couple days?If the PCB Gold plating holds up (it should as this is used in quality connector contact surfaces) seems like a good option, we were going to do this way back but never got around to a PCB reorder, too many "other" things got in the way.Anyway, nice workBest

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 02:40:40 pm
content: Thanks! I like that shunt, it's simple to work with. No effort involved. 😉I haven't done any additional testing with it yet, but I will test repeatability as described and post the results when I have some time.Thanks,Josh

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 03:16:18 pm
content: Now if one could gold plate that shunt, it would become a very nice reference shunt for Zero CalibrationsBest

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2025, 11:51:13 pm
content: I'm pissed at Hioki right now. I paid them $512 to calibrate my IM3570, which wound up being fine and not needing any adjustment. Instead, they decided to melt off the top left corner of my meter.This is what they sent back to me:This is how I sent to them, with a custom made acrylic screen protector to keep it safe in shipping:I paid a ton of money for fast shipping so UPS wouldn't have as much opportunity to mess it up, so Hioki did it for them.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2025, 12:54:02 am
content: My IM3570 is on its way back to Hioki to be repaired. Let's see how good of job they do at "the bare minimum." 🙄

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2025, 02:22:30 am
content: did they answered to your complaintsif you did sent it back, will they repair it free of charge for you ? did they acknowledge their wrong doing ?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2025, 04:01:43 am
content: They're going to fix it free of charge, which is what I consider the absolute bare minimum.But they were shady about it too. They had the nerve to tell me "nobody remembered seeing that happen here." The lack of accountability, and what them saying that implies is offensive.I paid hundreds of dollars in express shipping and insurance so UPS couldn't screw it up, so Hioki USA did instead. Soo stupid.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2025, 12:12:09 am
content: Hioki USA has had my IM3570 in their possession for a week now. No updates at all, and no response to a status request. I just hope they didn't drop it down an elevator shaft on to a bunch of bullets.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2025, 06:29:19 pm
content: I got my LCR back today. I'm happy to say it looks good again. They did another calibration after replacing the parts. They may have done what I consider the bare minimum here, but I can appreciate that as some companies don't bother doing that much.Thanks,Josh

author: Ugur
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 07:07:45 am
content: Hello everyone,The device gives this error when starting up. It gives an error when I try to calibrate the probe.Do you have any suggestions?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 02:18:34 pm
content: Try doing a factory reset / initialization first.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 07:36:17 pm
content: Hi,That might help, otherwise this message on the display does not bode well. See the “Troubleshooting” section in the manual.

author: Ugur
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2025, 06:07:57 am
content: Thank you for your responses.The device wouldn't turn on at all. I encountered this error after the SMPS was repaired. There may be an error with other regulated voltages, but it's a bit difficult to check the voltage while the device is operating. Is there a troubleshooting document? Perhaps I could start by checking the regulated voltages.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2025, 03:14:34 pm
content: The user manual has some basic troubleshooting, but Hioki doesn't share service docs.If any repair was done, I'd start by searching for debris (including loose solder bits), and checking general cleanliness (including looking for flux or solder residue). Then I'd start looking for obviously bad things like broken solder joints, or components that don't look healthy.If everything passes cleaning + visual inspection, that's when I'd start looking for points to test voltages.

author: Ugur
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 08:53:29 am
content: I need to provide more details so you can make a more accurate assessment.First, since the device never turned on, I found a broken fuse and a faulty MOSFET on the SPMS board.I replaced the fuse with a new one. 06N90E MOSFET was broken, but two piece of these MOSFETs were used on the board. I couldn't find the same MOSFET and replaced both with FQP8N90C. (I assume it's an equivalent.)After reassembling the device, I inspected it thoroughly and saw that all voltages had collapsed when I connected the power supply. However, I couldn't find any short circuits. I removed the SPMS again and checked all capacitors and other semiconductor components, but I couldn't find any faulty components.I powered the SMPS externally, and I saw in the PDF that it had a 5V output of 7A. When I didn't connect any load to its outputs, all voltages were measured correctly.For example, when I connected a 1-ohm load to the 5V output, I saw that the output voltage dropped to 1.5V and a current of 1.5A was flowing. This means the SPMS is not producing the desired power.In short, there still seems to be a problem with the SPMS.The most important question is: am I getting this error because I'm using the FQP8N90C instead of the 06N90E?SMPS model is LDC60F-2.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 03:47:11 pm
content: Assuming these are the correct datasheets, they're very similar, but not the same. I don't know if they're close enough in this case or not. We don't know if that's the only issue or not. Assuming it is the only issue with the PSU, if that's the change you made, and you're not getting the power you need, then that's the most obvious place to look.That power supply is available on eBay, and possibly elsewhere. The 06N90E is also available on eBay. Legit or not, I dunno.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 05:32:50 pm
content: Hi,QuoteYou can buy it, it's not expensive:Cosel LDC60F-2QuoteThis has nothing to do with the error description at first glance.EDIT:Quote7A is peak current, you may already be pushing the power supply to its limits, so use a higher resistor for testing.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 06:07:22 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on September 10, 2025, 05:32:50 pmFor that price, I would just buy it. eBay prices are much worse than that.

author: Ugur
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 07:13:49 am
content: Thank you for your answers.The error persisted even when I connected a higher load to the 5V output of the SMPS.When I connected a 1-ohm load to the 5V line, my output voltage dropped to 1.5V. 5V should be able to produce 5A.Similarly, when I connected a 2-ohm load to the 5V line, my output voltage dropped to 3.5V. 5V should be able to produce 2.5A.The replacement MOSFET I used is not identical; the turn-on speed of the original MOSFET is significantly different from the replacement MOSFET.I've now ordered another MOSFET with the same turn-on speed. I'll try that. If I don't succeed, I might buy a new one SMPS.My goal is to repair a simple SMPS circuit, because repairing it makes me happy.I wil let you know the results.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 10:46:25 am
content: QuoteI know what you mean...How do you actually measure the voltage, with a multimeter?That wouldn't be good in this case; it's better to measure with an oscilloscope and differential probe.You can't “see” anything with a multimeter...

author: Ugur
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2025, 06:24:01 am
content: Hi everyone,Yes, it worked just as I expected.I purchased the FMH06N90E. The SMPS had a TO220 case installed, but since I couldn't find one, I purchased a TO3P case. I insulated it as best I could and installed it. Now the device works perfectly.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2025, 01:11:34 pm
content: Nice! Congrats on getting it working.