Removing smart meter in UK and changing to classic (digital or analog) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: ricko_uk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 04:05:10 pm
content: Hi,by law in the UK the utility company has to revert the meter back to a non-smart meter if requested by the client. When I called the utility company they said they cannot do that with all sorts of excuses.What is the best way to have it removed if the utility company play difficult?Do anybody know which utilities company (electricity specifically) are easier to deal with in the UK to revert to a non-smart meter?Can I remove the smart meter myself? I assume I have the right to?Thank you

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 04:55:01 pm
content: Quote from: ricko_uk on August 03, 2023, 04:05:10 pmNo and I highly doubt you have a right to. Even if you remove the smart meter you certainly cannot install another meter to replace it or install jumpers across the gap so no more on-grid electricity for you.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 05:06:56 pm
content: QuoteNot unless you fancy getting free B+B at his majesty's pleasure,just breaking the seal is enough to raise suspicion of extraction of electricity,which is a criminal offence.

author: ricko_uk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 05:24:21 pm
content: Then what is the best way to have it removed if the utility company play difficult?Thank you

author: WatchfulEye
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 05:32:54 pm
content: There is no right to have a smart meter removed. Smart meters are considered the standard type of energy meter, and you cannot refuse to have an energy meter.There is specific legislation regarding to changeover from a "dumb" meter to a smart meter: You can refuse to have a "dumb" meter replaced with a smart meter provided that it is in full working order and the certification has not expired. You can also request that your supplier deactivates half-hourly or daily readings.However, once the certification expires or if the meter ceases to be in full working order, the energy supplier is legally required to replace it with another certified meter. As "dumb" meters are obsolete, whether a supplier can install a "dumb" meter is dependent on whether they have them in stock or are willing to support them.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 05:34:05 pm
content: Quote from: ricko_uk on August 03, 2023, 05:24:21 pmDemand the DNO remove their installation from your property, have no electricity supply.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 06:39:21 pm
content: Quote from: ricko_uk on August 03, 2023, 04:05:10 pmDo you have a source for that. As far as I'm aware, once a smart meter is fitted, that is it. It is too late to change your mind.The following seems to confirm, this:QuoteSource:https://www.smartme.co.uk/customer-rights.html

author: ricko_uk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2023, 11:01:15 am
content: Thank you all for the feedback and infos.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2025, 08:35:54 pm
content: This "important information" in a necropost from a first poster includes surveys for EMF and geopathic stress, no less.Quote from: simonb92 on March 13, 2025, 08:27:03 pm

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2025, 10:13:47 pm
content: sounds very much freeman on the land bollocks, no sparky would remove a company meter and no supplier will accept a meter from the customer

author: BILLPOD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2025, 01:17:53 pm
content: Good Morning Ricko_uk, I am curious as to the reason you don't want the smart meter.Care to elaborate

author: BadeBhaiya
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 10:00:48 am
content: Quote from: BILLPOD on March 14, 2025, 01:17:53 pmPurely anecdotal, but I have noticed a general distrust towards smart meters in UK.Semi-related, I have a relative who works at a major smart meter manufacturer. They told me smart meters have magnetoresistive/reed based sensors to detect if someone is trying to "slow" them down using strong magnets, like they did with older dumb meters. Of course, it wouldn't do anything, but they do log that event and report it over the network.For what purpose? You be the judgeStill, afaik no electricity company does anything with this knowledge

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 12:09:42 pm
content: Smart meters are very convenient for utility companies because they allow them to adjust user readings in hidden way via software. Additionally, hidden triggers can be embedded in the firmware to inflate readings under certain conditions in a way that the user won't notice. Even if the user does detect this, they won't be able to prove anything. The utility company always has the ability to discreetly modify the device's firmware to cover its tracks without leaving any traces of interference in the meter's operation.This is most hidden if the meter has some communication channel with the provider or wireless interfaces like radio or an IR channel. In this case, the utility company can change the firmware and data even if the meter is physically placed in the area with restricted access (locked by the user).There was even a case where an employee of a utility company was caught offering services to reduce meter readings using the same backdoor in the firmware that the company used to inflate them.The main issue with smart meters is that there is no way to prevent or detect such intrusion traces.Since all meters are now electronic, this is becoming a problem. However, you can protect yourself by requesting the installation of a meter without any communication channels or wireless access. Such a meter at least requires physical access to alter its billing/calibration parameters. Nevertheless, even in these meters, there are still possibilities for fraud to inflate consumption beyond the actual usage.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 12:37:33 pm
content: Quote from: BadeBhaiya on March 16, 2025, 10:00:48 amUtility companies use these sensors for fraud, they accuse users of tampering and impose large fines on users. A common fraudulent scheme involves installing a meter with an electromagnetic field sensor. At some point, a person hired by the utility company walks by and turns on a radio transmitter, triggering the sensor. The utility company then fines the user for alleged unauthorized interference with the meter.In fact, the certification of such meters requires that they must withstand such RF fields without any changes in operation. However, very few people are aware of this. Since most users have little knowledge of electronics, metrology, or certification, they are forced to pay the fine without understanding what happened.However, not all users are ignorant. Sometimes, they encounter radio enthusiasts who understand how this trick works. There have even been many court cases over this issue. Unfortunately, protecting oneself from such fraud is difficult, even with knowledge of the law, certification standards, and the nature of the fraud scheme being used.This scheme was exposed when such meters were installed for radio amateurs—they were triggered by the RF fields of transmitters. The company issued fines, but since radio amateurs have high RF field levels almost daily, this quickly uncovered the fraudulent scheme used by utility companies.The funniest part is that after the court case, the company suddenly "found" mechanical meters that were not affected by such issues, even though before the trial, they had claimed that no such meters were available.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 01:03:46 pm
content: Another very common way utility companies exploit users is through smart electric meters that measure both the phase and neutral lines and double the recorded consumption if there is a discrepancy between lines.This billing method is officially explained as a measure against electricity theft - specifically, if a user uses their own ground as a neutral while the meter is incorrectly wired to measure via the neutral line, it would allow electricity to be used without being recorded.However, in practice, such meters start doubling the readings if the user has any appliance with protective grounding, such as a water heater, washing machine, electric stove, etc. These meters also enable inflated readings if the utility company deliberately miswires the meter.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 01:06:03 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on March 16, 2025, 12:09:42 pmParanoid much?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 01:08:16 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on March 16, 2025, 01:03:46 pmThey only contain one current shunt, how would they measure current in both the Line and Neutral?Edit: ... and as for customers using their own ground as a neutral: this is prohibited, and impractical at any reasonable appliance load current.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 01:20:22 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on March 16, 2025, 01:08:16 pmand why would current flow in protective earth unless something is seriously wrong? and how does it not trip the RCD?

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 01:23:03 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on March 16, 2025, 01:06:03 pmAre you kidding? As I wrote above, there was even a court case where an employee of a utility company was caught offering paid services to users to reduce their meter readings using the same backdoor that the utility company used for hidden modifying their smart-meter parameters. Officially they said that there is no such possibility...Regarding to the scheme with RF field sensors, there was a lot of court cases against utility companies from ham-amateurs community about this issue.Quote from: Gyro on March 16, 2025, 01:08:16 pmIn my country, electronic electricity meters use two shunts, one for the Line and one for the Neutral. For example, my meter records both measurements and is even marked with a special symbol indicating that both lines are being measured.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 01:26:40 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on March 16, 2025, 01:23:03 pmReliable citation please.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 01:30:42 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on March 16, 2025, 01:23:03 pmYou omit to discuss your other (paranoid) contentions.You also omit to mention real problems...Utility companies can and do use them to remotely disconnect consumers, due to non-payment, billing errors, other errors.In the UK there are many smart meters that are useless, since they conform to a standard that is obsolete.Summary: your rant has achieved its aims, being a troll post to provoke a response.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 01:36:06 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on March 16, 2025, 01:20:22 pmBecause some meters (not all) multiply the measured value by a certain factor when a discrepancy is detected. Usually, when this happens, an LED indicator is activated. On my meter, this LED indicator of discrepancy is triggered every time a high-power load is turned on or off or when equipment with a grounded case is connected to the mains (such as a washing machine or electric stove). I have no idea why it gets triggered, possibly due to Y-filters. The same issue occurs for all users. And this is well known issue here with double reading due to connected devices with protective ground.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 01:56:54 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 16, 2025, 01:30:42 pmI’m not familiar with the situation in the UK, but here, fraud by utility companies is quite common. My intention wasn’t to troll, but rather to raise awareness about serious issues. The struggle against utility companies is particularly difficult because they are usually controlled by powerful mafia structures. As a result, fighting them in court is challenging, even with solid evidence of their illegal actions, as all their fraudulent practices are covered up and justified through corruption and money.For example, in the case of the court proceedings involving radio amateurs against the electricity supplier company, even a minister was involved to force them to comply with the law. However, even the minister couldn't help, as the company had a more powerful protector.But as I hear UK also has corruption, so I think your utility companies probably also use such schemes, isn't it?Regarding the meters that disconnect consumers, we also face similar issues here. In some cases, companies deliberately install smart-meters with a low limit on maximum current consumption (much lower than specified during construction for example 2 kW while specification is 10 kW), and when the meter frequently disconnects electricity, for example, when a kettle is turned on, they offer to raise the limit for a large sum of money. Essentially, they use blackmail to extort money from consumers.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 02:07:12 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on March 16, 2025, 01:56:54 pmAnd yet, in a thread regarding UK installations you speak authoritively about the subject.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 02:21:43 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 16, 2025, 02:07:12 pmI don’t think the potential for fraud depends on the country. The issue lies in the nature of smart-meters. The main problem with smart-meters is that they don’t allow users to monitor the absence of hidden interference from the utility company in the meter’s operation. This creates an opportunity for fraud, and it would be strange if utility companies didn’t take advantage of it. Mechanical meters allows to control it because it requires physical access to the meter and it's much easier to control.As far as I’ve heard, in the UK, there are fines for using a television receiver without paying the license fee, which is, in essence, absurd. At least we don’t have such nonsense here. Therefore, I wouldn’t be surprised if utility companies there use even more sophisticated fraud schemes. It would be interesting to know how relevant this issue is in your country.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 02:24:02 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 16, 2025, 02:07:12 pmNo change there, nor any surprisesConspiracies (e.g. about mafia structures) are much easier and more fun to believe than obvious explanations. Plus conspiracies make better troll fodder.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 02:57:25 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 16, 2025, 02:24:02 pmIf you've never encountered mafia-like structures, you're a fortunate person, and I genuinely envy you for that.However, seriously, I find it hard to believe that such things don't exist in your country. In my opinion, the statement that "mafia is just a conspiracy" could only be made by either a child or a propagandist spreading nonsensical propaganda. I’m referring to situations where everyone knows the truth but pretends otherwise because they fear punishment or consequences if they speak out.In my understanding, conspiracies are discussions claiming that there is no mafia and similar things...I haven’t been to your country, but I have visited many other countries, including those in the EU and the USA. From my observations, while there is some freedom in your country, it is quite limited. Despite the apparent freedom, people there live almost as if under a dictatorship regime - something like a soft dictatorship, where bloody coercion is not used, but most people live in poverty and, in essence, under system pressure. A step to the right or left is punished, not bloody, but still quite harshly. Am I correct?As far as I am familiar with the history of the UK, it has long been involved in colonization, political intrigue, piracy, and similar activities, which have often involved complex networks of power and influence. Given this historical context, it would seem unusual to believe that mafia-like structures don't exist in your country. The tactics and systems employed throughout history have sometimes shared similarities with those of organized crime, even if they were not formally labeled as such. Therefore, it would be difficult to imagine that such dynamics do not persist, even if they are less visible today.Quote from: tggzzz on March 16, 2025, 02:24:02 pmLabeling something as a conspiracy is often a tactic used to dismiss valid concerns or issues, and it can be a sign of minds influenced by propaganda. When people rely on this explanation, it often means they are avoiding deeper, more uncomfortable truths or complexities in favor of oversimplified narratives. It's important to critically examine situations instead of resorting to labels that can undermine meaningful discussion.The issues associated with smart meters can be viewed in a similar way to security vulnerabilities in computer systems. It would seem quite strange for someone to dismiss security vulnerabilities in modern computer systems as mere conspiracy theories or nonsense, claiming that such problems don’t exist or can’t happen. Similarly, to deny the possibility of fraud or exploitation of smart meters, or to suggest that the risks associated with their security are fictional, is equally unfounded. Just as hackers exploit vulnerabilities in computer systems for malicious gain, fraudsters can take advantage of weaknesses in smart meter technologies. It's essential to approach these concerns with the same seriousness and scrutiny as we do with any other technology that can be compromised.The main danger here is that many people unfortunately don't fully understand the security issues involved, and often behave in ways that are quite naive - sometimes dismissing these concerns as mere conspiracy theories and similar misconceptions. This lack of awareness and understanding creates an environment where fraud and exploitation can thrive, as individuals fail to recognize or address the risks that are present. It is precisely this misunderstanding that leads to significant problems with fraud and security breaches.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 03:44:41 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on March 16, 2025, 02:57:25 pmNo, you are not.Youcontinueto make confident assertions about X based on "observation" - but not observations of X.You appear to be observing propaganda emitted and regurgitated by propagandists.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 04:19:36 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on March 16, 2025, 02:57:25 pmor the opposite, it is label a conspiracy theory, so there for it must be true and "they" are just trying to suppress it"they" say the earth isn't flat, therefore the earth just be flat and "they" are trying to hide it

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 04:40:21 pm
content: I got a call from ovo 'offering' a free smart meter again just last week. I agreed to take a day off work and provide access for them, but they declined my £500 fee to do so. Also, if you do accept a smart meter, remember to tell them the installers will be turned away if they don't have the remote display for you - that's the new cost saving trick, 'it's in the post' but never arrives, according to two people I know well.I see ovo are now moving to monthly billing, although I've been on quarterly billing, erm, forever. I feel this is just a harassment tactic, 'we need monthly readings, it's much easier with a smart meter'.They under-estimate how much I enjoy being ackward and old fashioned :-)

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 04:40:34 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 16, 2025, 03:44:41 pmI understand your position, but I have to respectfully disagree. I place more trust in my own experiences and observations, which suggest that phenomena like mafia structures and fraud are present in every country. I am confident that the UK is no exception. In fact, I believe that the UK has a significant number of structures that influence or manage such networks globally, as a legacy of its colonial past (and I would argue that this is not merely a thing of the past, as I don’t believe much has seriously changed in this regard).I recognize that different people interpret these situations differently, but my perspective is shaped by years of observing patterns that align with these concerns.Quote from: tggzzz on March 16, 2025, 03:44:41 pmI assure you that I am not influenced by propaganda at all. My views are based on personal experiences, observations, and a critical assessment of the situations I have encountered.In my country, propaganda is very-highly developed, even more so than in the EU or the UK today. This is why there is a war. This propaganda is spread by the very same mafia-like structures whose existence you deny. These structures use manipulation and emotional appeals to influence public opinion and advance their own agendas. Given my experience, I can see how these tactics are employed, and that’s why I remain particularly cautious when it comes to accepting narratives at face value. It’s these same entities that thrive on controlling information and public sentiment, making it all the more important to approach such matters with skepticism and critical thinking.As a result, I have become accustomed to filtering out any propaganda with a very critical and discerning approach. Emotional appeals, manipulative rhetoric designed to incite hatred or encourage violence in the name of some cause or symbol, have no influence on me. It’s difficult for me to understand why some people are swayed by such cheap tactics that now flood the media. I believe it’s essential to stay grounded in reason and critical thinking, rather than being caught up in the noise of manipulation.Sometimes, I get the impression that many people see the lies of propaganda just as I do, but are afraid to openly acknowledge their disgust for it, fearing punishment. However, there are occasions when I come across individuals who make me believe that there are indeed people who fall for this cheap propaganda and are swayed by it. It’s a sad reality, but it also highlights the power of manipulation and how deeply it can affect people's thinking.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 05:16:20 pm
content: Please note that posting AI generated content can lead to being banned from the forum.This forum is for discussion between humans.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 05:20:43 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on March 16, 2025, 04:19:36 pmThe term conspiracy theory is often used by people who lack critical thinking skills and can’t process even basic logic. It’s hard to say where this meme started, but I suspect someone got tired of explaining things to those who wouldn’t understand anyway and just labeled it a conspiracy theory - and surprisingly, that was enough for them. Since then, propagandists have adopted this tactic to shut down discussions, regardless of whether the argument is valid or not. It works because fools simply assume that if something is called a conspiracy theory, it must be nonsense, so they don’t even bother thinking critically.In other words, conspiracy theory is a cheap manipulation tactic that can only be used to explain something to a completely ignorant person.Quote from: langwadt on March 16, 2025, 04:19:36 pmRegarding your example with flat Earth, I can’t say with absolute certainty whether the Earth is flat or round because I haven’t personally verified it. However, my experience suggests that a round Earth aligns much more naturally with observed physical laws. The Earth could theoretically be flat, but I find it difficult to imagine a scenario where that would be the case. That’s why I tend to believe the Earth is round.As you can see, I rely on my own observations rather than emotions or someone else's propaganda.I hope I have clearly explained why cheap and stupid propaganda tactics, such as manipulative labels like "conspiracy theory," do not work on me.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 05:27:43 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on March 16, 2025, 05:16:20 pmI don't use AI-generated content. My native language is not English, so I use AI for grammar and sentence corrections. I make many mistakes in English, especially with articles, and this helps me write in a more natural way. However, the content is 100% written by me, and I always verify that the meaning remains unchanged after correction.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 05:36:59 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on March 16, 2025, 04:40:34 pmEverybodyis influenced by propaganda; the question ishoware they influenced.I have no doubt about your experiences having influenced you in the way you describe. But, importantly, not everywhere is the same.QuoteIs your country Russia or an allied state, e.g. Belorussia? If so, I have more belief in the way you have come to your understanding.My experiences... I know people that crawled under the Iron Curtain, at the risk of being shot if caught. I have personally been through the Iron Curtain 6 times, and have a visceral understanding of the differences. I was also in Berlin less than a week after the wall came down. I never expected to see both sides of the (very thin) wall at the same time.I therefore attempted to determine whether the standard propaganda about life in the USSR etc were true. I asked several friends who travelled there, and they confirmed the propaganda from personal experiences. Consequently I have in the past believed a lot of the western propaganda. However, given Trump and his allies - including the sock puppets on this forum - I am far more critical of many "alternative facts" (i.e. lies) uttered by some powerful people in the west.QuoteDo not presume that everywhere is the same as your country; it isn't.As for corrupt structures in my country, there certainly is "misbehaviour" but not on the scale of Russia etc. There's an excellent fortnightly magazine, "Private Eye", which has been published for >60 years. Its stock in trade is recording the hypocritical statements made by people and organisations, plus various scandals financial, commercial, political and otherwise. Its editor is regularly on television and claims to be the most sued person in the UK. The magazine almost always wins lawsuitsIt regularly records scandals that other media doesn't, classic recent examples being the GPO scandal and the Lucy Letby case. Earlier ones include the Bristol Children's Hospital scandal.Very little of their publications are on their website; they keep their IPR under close control, and away from other newspapers and LLMs.https://www.private-eye.co.uk/

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 05:37:30 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on March 16, 2025, 05:20:43 pmand other fools automatically assume that if something is called a conspiracy theory, it must be the truth ...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 05:38:24 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on March 16, 2025, 05:20:43 pmExcept when you choose not to, and rely on yourlackof observations, and on propaganda you choose to believe.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 06:21:20 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on March 16, 2025, 05:27:43 pmI didn't mean you, another user who has had their posts deleted so doesn't show here anymore.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 08:06:33 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 16, 2025, 05:36:59 pmIn my country, men who go out to buy bread are now captured like slaves or animals, beaten, and used for human trafficking, many of them sent to the front lines under bombs or just killed during capturing, regardless of their will and die soon - no one cares about human rights or the constitution which prohibit this. It is named "conscription". Native churches are essentially banned, only government-approved churches are allowed. Native language is also banned. Meanwhile, on television, they claim that people want to keep fighting "for land" (that was sold to foreign companies even before the war). And they openly call this "democracy" and many people believe it. That is why I’m not surprised that the regime in North Korea is also called democratic.I lived through the USSR era, and in modern times, I have visited many Western cities - such as in the USA, Israel, France, Italy, Austria, and others - and seen how people live there, even spending some time living in these countries myself. So I can make a comparison based on my experience. I’ve noticed that life in places like the USA, Israel, and Italy is more similar to what it was in the USSR in the 1980s. The social environment is quite similar. The ideologies differ, but in terms of everyday life for regular people, it doesn’t have a major impact.I’ve been to wealthy and well-off cities like Princeton (NJ) and avoided ghettos, so I understand that life there can be much harder. For example, I felt scared to get out of the car in Trenton (NJ). Maybe I was just scared by "propaganda" and it’s not as bad as it seemed, but I still felt an intuitive sense of danger.So, as I see it, regardless of ideology, there are successful places where people live in more comfortable conditions, and there are poor places with crime. Therefore, it is unlikely that this depends on ideology, as both have existed in the USSR, the USA, and other countries.Regarding smart meters, perhaps such schemes are not used in your country due to competition, and I can believe that. Here, we have no competition - this sector is a monopoly. But I think your companies are not far behind, given the high tariffs, it suggests the possibility of collusion among companies to drive up prices. This hints at the presence of mafia-like structures in this industry, because I know the real cost of electricity production from official documents and it is about 10-20 times smaller.

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 09:19:00 pm
content: Fortunately, in Australia, I have been able to avoid a 'Smart Meter', I still even have one of the old off peak meters, works very well, but I am afraid this avoidance will cease soon. A 'Smart Meter' means the ability to do 'time of day' rates which punishes people for using electricity at peak periods, I am not a fan.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 09:51:13 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on March 16, 2025, 08:06:33 pmWe do have smart meters here, but they are optional. I choose not to have one, ditto water meters and smart gas meters.There is no single value for the "real cost" of electricity ore anything else; any accountant will tell you that. It all depends on what you want to include.and exclude, with depreciation being a classic example.Old observation... If you ask "what is 2+2? ", a bad accountant will say "5" , an average accountant will say "4", and a good accountant will say "what do you want it to be?" .

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 10:13:04 pm
content: Unless you have a hoard of kids still at home (I know you don't), a water meter will save you afortune. [... and it's passive]

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 10:22:21 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on March 16, 2025, 10:13:04 pmWhat you don't know is that there are lead pipes from the street to my stopcock and taps.In the late 80s the legal limit was 50ug/l. First thing in the morning my water was 49ug/l; after running water for 5mins the level was well below the current 10ug/l limit.Consequently I will continue to run my water for several minutes before ingesting it.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 10:52:38 pm
content: For the annual saving (by coincidence, I was comparing costs with a neighbor just the other week because they were complaining about the cost and wondering about a water meter, huge difference), you should look at getting a new supply pipe 'moled' in. We had ours replaced under the house insurance a few years ago due to a leak and it was only several hundred pounds. Most water companies in Lead pipe areas will do the street side for free on evidence that you are having your supply pipe replaced.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2025, 11:17:08 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on March 16, 2025, 10:52:38 pmI've wondered about such techniques, but I'm not sure how much of the problem they solve in my case. Key points are that the current access route is unknown (90yo house), and will be largely under a concrete driveway and near the gas service pipe. Easier and better to replace the driveway. That driveway is a 14% slope, which adds interesting geometric considerations.The only practical entry point will be in a 2yard length of external wall in a basement, and it will disrupt that room. The internal piping will have to go through and disruptanotherthree rooms: kitchen, bedroom and bathroom.Compare the costs of (financial, time, disruption, redecorating), and simply continuing to run water is the less bad alternative!

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2025, 06:07:53 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 16, 2025, 09:51:13 pmOnly someone who has never studied mathematics and basic economic accounting (such as break-even analysis, profit margins, etc.) could write something like this. Strange to hear something like this on an engineering forum. When I mentioned the "real cost" I was referring to the price at which electricity generation companies (nuclear power plants) sell electricity - this price already covers all expenses and ensures the company's profitability.If someone buys something for 1 cent and sells it for 20 cents, that’s incredibly profit margin - a level of profitability that quickly turns into mafia monopoly business practices, similar to drug and human trafficking. At such margins, smart meters become pointless because no consumer could possibly use enough electricity to bankrupt the supplier, even if they tried.And if you think about it - historically, private homes didn't have individual meters for utilities, yet everything worked just fine, and the business was still profitable.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2025, 09:53:01 am
content: Quote from: radiolistener on March 17, 2025, 06:07:53 amThose are only part of the costs.As any accountant will tell you, assigning a value for depreciation is subject to all sorts of whims. For example, see the privatisation of the UK electricity industry.How much does it cost to make a Hollywood film? Just enough to wipe out any liabilities for tax, profit-sharing or royalties. Seehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting