Starting first lab for beginner student; need help - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: hem213
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 12:47:42 am
content: hello everyone! I am an 2nd year engineering student and I have decided it is time to seriously invest in a lab but because tuition is so expensive, I need to figure out how to maximize the value of the money i am sinking into this endeavor. I would absolutely appreciate help with this because I am not sure where to start expect the 2 different categories;(I apologize for the formatting in advance, I literally have no idea what I am doing right now)The "basics" (I already have a DMM):is a scope, power supply, and maybe a Logic analyzer.scope -> That will be in a different sectionpower supply;https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B092DH6GM8/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ANW9CH00EEXDH&psc=1logic analyzer; -> That will be in a different section-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The "extras" (because I am extremely interested in RF):is a spectrum analyzer, AWG, LCR meter, and maybe a VNAspectrum analyzer ->https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BMPSSFTK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?smid=A3KC9Z86M9XWS3&psc=1AWG ->https://www.amazon.com/Generator-Precision-Dual-Channel-Arbitrary-Frequency/dp/B07H89QRCDLCR meter ->https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071WNNYQT/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1L1WUWYKZGTBQ&psc=1VNA ->https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Z5VY7B6/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3KC9Z86M9XWS3&psc=1_,__________________________________________________________________________________________________________My first questionI am potentially looking for a logic analyzer (if I am not using one from a built inside a scope) so I need to know what would be a better idea, the thing is I do not think I will need better specs but I have not 100% sure about it;1) spend more money on a unit that has16 input channels and the sample rate of 100MHzhttps://www.amazon.com/LA1010-Analyzer-channels-software-instrument/dp/B07D21GG6J/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=8KYD3KVRKKDZ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.dlhze1_6QV8KrkIYmy_VnadLS-jVniOJstMmcbjiXcF4oNkF9ZP7RB1HThhyb9XF7Lvs3hcF76F80aX9xBZTatrvNby88XyWl4N2Z5z6is3yRsZS8xXSMauvjCI2bEDUoIoQUdI_TH_0_YupaBqRHI9heIktCKpcxs_bDzQSzkBg0J1knII_YafS3v1PnssUfs-wEWkaFWl9UvO7JKA77WxnkXPkyR98m9oA7OFUp10.yhWoMpkOALnVi0dOjiBT3pc2I3Tbiw9rnT_nwEo5b3Y&dib_tag=se&keywords=logic%2Banalyzer&qid=1717893215&sprefix=logic%2Ba%2Caps%2C239&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1------------------------------------- OR ------------------------------------------------------------2) get one of the extremely cheap Chinese off brand ones that is 24Mhz and 8 channels.https://www.amazon.com/HiLetgo-Analyzer-Ferrite-Channel-Arduino/dp/B077LSG5P2/ref=sr_1_3?crid=8KYD3KVRKKDZ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.dlhze1_6QV8KrkIYmy_VnadLS-jVniOJstMmcbjiXcF4oNkF9ZP7RB1HThhyb9XF7Lvs3hcF76F80aX9xBZTatrvNby88XyWl4N2Z5z6is3yRsZS8xXSMauvjCI2bEDUoIoQUdI_TH_0_YupaBqRHI9heIktCKpcxs_bDzQSzkBg0J1knII_YafS3v1PnssUfs-wEWkaFWl9UvO7JKA77WxnkXPkyR98m9oA7OFUp10.yhWoMpkOALnVi0dOjiBT3pc2I3Tbiw9rnT_nwEo5b3Y&dib_tag=se&keywords=logic+analyzer&qid=1717893459&sprefix=logic+a%2Caps%2C239&sr=8-3___________________________________________________________________________________________________________My second questionI need to know what would be a better idea out of the two to do, I saw on this site that using scopes that have features built in are usually not a good choice but I just want to check with you guys.1) For the scope I have two options; either get a more expensive scope that has a AWG and logic analyzer built-in like this one belowhttps://www.amazon.com/dp/B08MDSG839/ref=twister_B08MDR5DGH?_encoding=UTF8&th=1------------------------------------- OR ------------------------------------------------------------2) Buy a cheaper scope without any extra features but buy a separate AWG and logic analyzer, when all totaled together, would be the same price as option 1, the expensive scope. I would also like to know if there is a better alterative for just a scope like the one below.scope;https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CQ7CV3DX/ref=ewc_pr_img_4?smid=A6Y0MPTDX8T1G&psc=1awg;https://www.amazon.com/Generator-Precision-Dual-Channel-Arbitrary-Frequency/dp/B07H89QRCDlogic analyzer; -> That will be in a different section___________________________________________________________________________________________________________My third questionLike I said before, I am extremely interested in RF but unfortunately I do not have a lot of experience yet (for example, I still have not warped y my head around SWR completely), however, in anticipation even I get more experience should I get a VNA? I will link it belowhttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Z5VY7B6/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3KC9Z86M9XWS3&psc=1___________________________________________________________________________________________________________Ok, other than those questions, The most important thing is if I messed up my picks of what to get, or if you guys know about any problems with the products I have picked that I was unaware of, or if there better alternatives for the same price. anyway thank you all for the help!

author: dobsonr741
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 01:42:00 am
content: Please tell us more how this lab fits into the academic progress, so we can give a meaningful recommendation. Like your major, your interests, what is not working in the school.Quote

author: hem213
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 02:29:40 am
content: Quote from: dobsonr741 on June 09, 2024, 01:42:00 ammy major is electrical and computer engineering, I love RF, radar, drones, electronic warfare (EW). I wouldn't say that anything is not working in school, to be honest, a lot me trying to start my own lab is just for me to learn more and work on the circuits that I have designed in my free time, not really school related expect for the RF project I am working on to showcase for an antenna research type of internship that I have my eyes on.But now that you bring this up, now that I think about it I do have alternatives to this lab, like I have a transistor checker that can act like a LCR and I have access to a lab in my school where the equipment is magnitudes better than anything I could acquire. Honestly I just do not know what to do or how I should proceed

author: dobsonr741
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 02:40:32 am
content: How you described it it’s rather a hobby and not academic development. This not an investment, it’s your disposable many that going to it. Consider it like entertainment.What you describe academically (radar, EW) is miles away from what you say about the practice ( transistor checker) Why is that?Out of the many instruments the VNA (perhaps a Nanovna) makes the most promise.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 10:02:53 am
content: hem213 : I don't understand exactly why you want to “plan” your lab. Just buy what you think makes sense as the next step.Of course, a DMM and a scope are a good start.If you want the Hantek, then buy the cheapest model at the cheapest price (DSO2C10). E.g.hereTechnically they are all the same, except for the probe.The signal generator can be “unlocked” in the newer batches.But this is not “a more expensive scope” as you say, it is one of the cheapest benchtop scopes on the market and of course it has its weaknesses, which is to be expected at this price.Some here would recommend Siglent or Rigol, but that's a different price range.However, the Hantek can be recommended as a first hobby scope if you can get it for ~$160 (It is even cheaper in special offers. I bought mine for $130)I would not recommend the JDS6600 signal generator, rather aFY6900in this price range.But the one in the Hantek is probably enough to get you started.

author: tunk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 11:15:21 am
content: Solder station, hand tools (screwdrivers, pliers, etc.), components?

author: BILLPOD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 12:34:32 pm
content: Good Morning Hem213, back when I was in school the labs had more students than they had equipment, so we had to do the lab exercises in groups, which limited the 'hands-on' time we had with the equipment.That was when I started my own lab at home. I obtained the equipment necessary to do the lab exercises at home. I found that helped me get a better grasp of the elements that were being taught. My biggest investment was a scope, which I still have now; over 50 years later.So my suggestion is to try to get just enough equipment to be able to do the lab work; you can add to it as you go along and finances allow.Best of luck in your studies, and welcome to the Forum

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 01:05:47 pm
content: I don't see any mention of soldering/desoldering equipment. All the fancy test equipment in the world wont help you if you cant solder a wire to a board, or solder/desolder a resistor or capacitor you need to change! The bare minimum is a temperature controlled soldering station, but nowadays if you are serious, you also need hot air with a choice of nozzle sizes for SMD prototyping and rework, and maybe a board preheater as well. Desoldering is a deeper rabbit hole - the maintenance and consumable costs of vacuum desoldering irons can be a PITA - so I'd be tempted to make do with a hand-held plunger type solder sucker, and solder-wick for the more delicate jobs, and use the college workshop if you've got a lot of desoldering to do, or a difficult board with heavy copper pours sucking the heat away from the joints you need to desolder.

author: aliarifat794
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 01:25:05 pm
content: 1) As a student, 8-channel, 24MHz version should be sufficient for you.2)Separate devices (Option 2) offer better flexibility and potentially better performance, though they may take up more space and require a bit more setup.3)If you are serious about diving into RF, a VNA is a valuable tool.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 01:43:28 pm
content: I would give serious consideration to the Digilent Analog Discovery 3A lot of people look at it and decide it must be an expensive toy. It's not! It is a portable lab that you can use in Starbuck's while messing around with homework. Bode' plots should be interesting by the second year as well as FFTs. All easy to do with the AD3.It takes a bit of reading and thinking to discover just what this device can do. Check out the features and watch a video. Download the free Waveforms software and play with a virtual demo devicehttps://digilent.com/shop/analog-discovery-3/https://digilent.com/shop/software/

author: CaptDon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 01:49:38 pm
content: Be careful about incorporating to much stuff into one package. Often an all-in-one solution lacks features that may be available or more intuitive on stand alone pieces. Also, if your all-in-one gets blown up from misuse or an accidental 'ooopps' you lose everything. As for the logic analyzer, probably not a super important piece at the moment. You may find that the simulink type programs are more useful and by the time you graduate most logic signals are likely to be to fast for anything but a hugely expensive logic analyzer. A four channel scope is about all the 'logic analyzer' you will need right now. Radar, I spent years in that field and it is way different today. A single tunable integrated front end with S.T.C. input and I.F. quadrature outputs. I.F. to digital prepackaged converters and many different display correlator software packages. Most of the 4KW marine and 12KW aircraft stuff can only be repaired by swapping modules. The technology in the modules is sealed and proprietary. No one is willing to pay to fix an older unit. The new stuff can incorporate Radar, GPS, AIS and Chart Plotter into one display head. I own a very nice AWG in my personal lab but have never had a need for the AWG function. Every waveform I have needed was just the basic available waveforms, Sine, Square, Triangle, Ramp, Pulse, Burst. I did use a very expensive Tektronix 2 channel AWG to simulate Crank and Cam position signals which must be locked to each other but with variable offset. For the scope, nothing less than 500MHz / 2GSPS 4 Channel Color!! (And of good quality not a cheap knock off!!)

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 02:22:58 pm
content: I started building a lab over ten yrs ago. I have purchased more stuff than I need, I suppose that is normal. A good portion of my equipment is purchased broken for a few mucks then repaired.The Capt has very good points. I think he does a lot of repair. I will advocate a less expensive approach.I really do not need to be thrifty, but I decided to attempt to make the hobby pay for itself, so I repaired stuff (which was the idea anyway).You can learn a lot repairing radios, especially if you are interested in RF.Unfortunately, the radios that are common and need repair are CB Radios and the clientele are not very knowledgeable and that can be difficult.But you can make money doing this, some folks even support themselves. I am not advocating this by any means, but I have achieved my goal of more than breaking even in my hobby, quite early on. There is a big shortage of radio repair people at present, many of the good ones are dying or are too infirm.If you are interested in this approach here is my suggestion:First, Start with a good linear 13.5 volt LINEAR power supply to power the radio under repair.I pick up PS at Hamfests for maybe $20 and fix them. You can easily net $100 if you fix them. The higher the amp rating of the PS the more it is worth. Linear PS are easier to fix than the modern switching supplies, a good place to start and they are more in demand. You will understand these units well after repairing a few. All you need to fix them is a good multimeter, a scope helps but is not necessary.Secondlook for a bargain on a scope, I started with CRT scopes and they are more than adequate for repair purposes and prices are very low at present. CRT scopes are old and require maintenance a lot of the time. However the digital scopes are VERY good and you might find one cheap. There are so many threads about scopes here already so I will not go into this any further. I do have a 500 MHz Scope with all the fancy colors, very pretty.Third, get a load for testing transmission of the radio. Does not have to be great but the bigger the better. And Power Meter.Fourth, get a signal generator that has built in AM Modulation and meets your freq requirements. Does not have to be fancy AWG.You can pick up Lab type Linear Triple PS at Hamfests for very little money. The old ones have mechanical meters and you need to verify the voltages with a good multimeter.There are very good Lab Grade and other PS that are switching but there are also more terrible ones, so I recommend the linear.If you are interested in this approach, I can offer further opinions.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 02:55:50 pm
content: ALSO: Universities frequently have auctions of their used equipment when some prof gets new stuff, Keep an eye out for this.There is usually a dumpster that broken stuff is assigned to. Sometimes this stuff is easily fixable or maybe not even broken, find the dumpster....People have found things like very expensive old physics stuff like Resistance Standards...

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 03:03:09 pm
content: Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on June 09, 2024, 02:22:58 pmThat's built into the Hantek, which the OP was considering (up to 25MHz).There are many reasons for a DSO2000, and a few against.In the foto you can see an antenna (supplied with the Tinysa) connected to the AWG output of the DSO2000.Next to it is an old SW radio that receives the signal via antenna. The radio is reconnected to the scope via the headphone jack.FFT is also running.I have fun with my DSO2000 and it costs almost nothing.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 03:10:58 pm
content: Looks pretty darn nice to me!!!How does it work at about 30 MHz, I know it is a 25 MHZ scope but does it go to 30 with any kind of good trace?

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 03:23:08 pm
content: Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on June 09, 2024, 03:10:58 pmThe scope is good for 100MHz (or 150).The built-in AWG goes up to 25MHz for AWFs.With an AWF you can also reach 50MHz (25MHz * 2), but that is pushing the limits.Here is a double square wave AWF:

author: hem213
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 10:04:11 pm
content: Quote from: tunk on June 09, 2024, 11:15:21 amHello! I already have those!

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 11:30:03 pm
content: Quote from: hem213 on June 09, 2024, 10:04:11 pmI second the Analog Discovery.My EE son-in-law was very happy with his Diligent Analog for work outside of class. You can use it with a separate power supply if you need more than 10 volts. I have one as well for my self study in EE. I use it upstairs so I do not abandon my wife.You use it with your laptop which displays the info and controls the Analog Discovery's instruments. There is a pretty good range of functions; 16 ch LA, Network analyzer, spectrum analyzer, etc. This meets your requirements at a low cost while saving you a lot of space in your room/apartment.The downside is that it is not as sexy as a shelf full of instruments.

author: hem213
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 11:43:34 pm
content: Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on June 09, 2024, 02:22:58 pmtwo questions, what would you recommend as a load for transmissions lines? I assumed I could use a 50 ohm resistor but is it not enough?and, why do you think I need a AWG with AM modulation, I think that the I have a cheap signal generator that can do sine waves up to 100Khz and the tinySA can do it from 100Khz up to ~1GhzEDIT; misunderstood #3 on your original post, but I am wondering about the whole 50 ohm load and transmission line question so if you do not mind can you please answer thatanyway to address #3, could I just use an old radio to test if RF transmissions are working correctly?anyway thanks for the help!

author: hem213
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2024, 11:53:09 pm
content: Quote from: tunk on June 09, 2024, 11:15:21 amOkay, I checked it out and it is pretty awesome plus it costs just as much as buying everything sperate but my only worry is the same thing that CaptDon said, in an all in one solution, if I break it or it starts to glitch out, I am screwed. the analog discovery is something is would really really love if it was not for this problem.but what do you think?

author: hem213
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2024, 12:03:52 am
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on June 09, 2024, 03:03:09 pmOk yes, this is why I initally thought the hantek was a good idea but the one with AWG cost around ~$210I guess in my head it might be better to get one of those cheap $99 scopes without the features get the AWG and Logic analyzer cheaper and betterwhat do you think though? would love some thoughts

author: JustMeHere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2024, 12:06:00 am
content: A 4 channel scope is all the "logic analyzer" I've ever needed. 8 and 16 channel communications aren't that common. You can get away with 2 channels and a trigger on most protocols.

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2024, 03:03:01 am
content: another analog discovery recommendation here!last year i stayed at a friend's for a few months, and as i still wanted to tinker with electronics while staying there, i took my AD2 and a multimeter, and was able to do pretty much everything i do with my home lab with dedicated instruments. As long as you don't require high bandwidth (beyond 20MHz) or to look at very small signals (in the order of a few mV peak to peak) the AD3 or AD2 is an awesome tool, with a very impressive software toolkit.The improvements the AD3 offers over the AD2, while definitely improvements, aren't too significant for hobby use, so if you're strapped for cash, you could look into buying an used AD2 on ebay, they tend to pop up from like 150 to 200 USD used.if i had no lab instruments and had to choose between an AD3 or a hantek bench scope, i would pick the AD3. sure, sample rate and bandwidth are lower, but the hantek instruments i've used are so finnicky, that if i was stuck with one, i wouldn't do electronics as a hobby as much as i would with an AD3, and would just use it when i absolutely have to, like for homework assignments. i think user experience significantly matters too.oh! and the AD2/3 also has 2 power supplies, one positive and one negative, limited in voltage and current to well below what a dedicated bench supply could do, but still really useful. it also has 16 digital channels which you can use as inputs or outputs, two trigger inputs/outputs, and two arbitrary waveform generators.another thing i found to be really useful in the AD2 is the differential inputs for the oscilloscope(when you use the bare wire connection, not the BNC adapter), which i consider a great feature to have for stuff like probing DC to DC converter current waveforms(with a current sense resistor) and input and output at the same time even if the output is isolated, and well, anything else that benefits or requires differential probing.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2024, 07:46:43 am
content: Quote from: hem213 on June 10, 2024, 12:03:52 amAs I wrote above, even the cheapest model (~$160) has the signal generator built in.You just have to activate it, it's very easy.Here's how to do it. Search for:2D15 conversion: Sets your model as 2D15.One advantage of the Hantek over the Vevor etc. is that there is a huge amount of information about it in the forums.Very little is known about the Vevor / Hanmatek / Owon SDS1102 although they have been on the market for much longer (2017 or so).Of course it's your decision whether you need a “real” scope at all.

author: Solder_Junkie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2024, 07:55:48 am
content: For a VNA, the NanoVNA-H4 is the one that can be loaded with alternative firmware to use as a phase frequency analyser, I have one and while you are unlikely to need a PFA unless comparing very high stability oscillators (such as evaluating a GPS disciplined oscillator against a rubidium standard), it is "something for nothing" and very easy to swap functions by loading firmware. For an idea of the type of use, see this example:https://www.qsl.net/g4aon/gpsdo/Amazing what you can do with low cost equipment!I think you are already aware of the official sellers of the NanoVNA and TinySA, for those who may not be aware, there are a lot of fakes around and they are sometimes more expensive than a genuine one!SJ

author: hem213
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2024, 11:06:01 am
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on June 10, 2024, 07:46:43 amYes! This is something that I didn't realize until now, the amount of support and discussions about the hantek is extremely attractive, if i have a problem at least I know someone else probably can help me out with it on this site

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2024, 04:32:52 pm
content: Quote from: Anthocyanina on June 10, 2024, 03:03:01 am