Professional Engineers in Victoria must now be licensed - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 05:43:30 am
content: You must now be licensed in Victoria (Australia) in order to practice as or call yourself a "Professional Engineer"Obviously designed for the building industry, but on page 5 it states Electrical EngineeringGood thing we are Electronics Engineershttp://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/domino/Web_Notes/LDMS/PubPDocs.nsf/ee665e366dcb6cb0ca256da400837f6b/294b464e14fe6430ca2583b4007b990d/$FILE/591021bi1.pdf

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 05:49:21 am
content: Another example of hurried legislation which will have little impact.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 06:15:49 am
content: I don't understand how they can protect the word "professional".Basic definition: "engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as an amateur."It is not illegal to practice electrical engineering without a license in this country, and the word professional simply describes that you are a paid professional instead of an amateur, so this is just silly.Titles like "Chartered Engineer" and others can be protected, and Engineers Australia promotes that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 06:16:59 am
content: And yep, Engineers Australia supports it of course. Even though very few practicing electronics engineer in the country are a member.https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/News/engineers-australia-welcomes-compulsory-registration-engineers

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 07:15:43 am
content: Registering probably isn't free, is it?

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 07:42:41 am
content: I read paragraph (3) of the bill about 5 times now, and I still didn't understand it.There are 4 negation words in the same sentence.Can anybody kindly explain it, please?

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 08:13:44 am
content: If you're a non-practising professional engineer you must not claim to be registered as one when you're not.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 08:52:53 am
content: Now it makes sense, thank you.This page also helped:https://portal.engineersaustralia.org.au/news/queensland-name-and-shame-shonky-engineers

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 09:13:41 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on August 28, 2019, 07:15:43 amI'm guessing not

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 09:17:26 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 28, 2019, 08:13:44 amAnd then the very next section says you can't even claim to be a Professional Engineer if you aren't registered, let alone a registered professional engineer

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 10:28:35 am
content: Basically as the legislation reads, anyone can still call themselves an "engineer"... as long as you don't put the word "professional" in front of it. Does anyone in any engineering industry actually do that? For example in my industry we hire "Network Engineers", "Radio/Radar Engineers" and "Electronics Engineers".

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 10:28:53 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 28, 2019, 09:17:26 amSo(3) It is forbidden to say "I'm a non-practising professional engineer" (unless I register as one)(4) It is forbidden to say "I'm a professional engineer" (unless I register as one)OK, be it, but then, why the original paragraphs (3) and (4) have such a different phrasing?At this point my speculation is that the words "must not represent" used in (3) have some special meaning in lawyer's language, because otherwise it doesn't make sense.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 11:37:43 am
content: It's not just title, includes the type of work.(1) A person must not provide professional engineering services in a particular area of engineering unless the person is —(a) registered as a practising professional engineer in that area; or(b) providing the professional engineering services under the direct supervision of a person who is registered as a practising professional engineer in that area.Professional engineering service means an engineering service that requires, or is based on, the application of engineering principles and data(a) to a design relating to engineering; or(b) to a construction, production, operation or maintenance activity relating to engineering—other than an engineering service that is provided only in accordance with a prescriptive standard

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 11:40:30 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 28, 2019, 09:17:26 amGranted, it isn't plain English but it is precise.3. Don't misrepresent being registered.4. To use the termprofessionalyou must be registered.I'm no lawyer. Lawyers used to get paid by the word.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 11:51:15 am
content: Don't worry. Electronics engineers are rarely accused of being professional.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 12:00:33 pm
content: Just FYI for non Australian readers. This as with all legislation has come about because of a spate of very public failures in buildings in recent years. It has been a long time coming. Advice I have heard is if you want to buy an apartment in Australia, do not buy one that has been built in the last 20 years. Not all are bad but no-one really knows which are. Goverments (state) mostly privatised building inspections back then and standards have been falling.Search on "mascot tower" "Opal tower" or "flammable cladding Melbourne"https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-16/flammable-cladding-removal-fund-victorian-government/11311518or this instance of a building site collapsehttps://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/engineer-fined-480-000-over-mount-waverley-building-site-pit-collapse-20180323-p4z5yw.htmlAs I understand it the state of Queensland has required engineers to be registered for 88 years.https://www.bpeq.qld.gov.au/

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 12:15:49 pm
content: The catch is, to tender for contract work with government departs you will need to represent yourself as a professional engineer.It will be written into tender documents.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 12:31:38 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 28, 2019, 12:00:33 pmI understand this has become a very serious problem in Australia, but regulations on who can use the term professional engineer is a stupid response. Unsafe buildings mostly happen through corruption, not incompetence. Everywhere that has reliably safe buildings has a solid independent oversight mechanism, that keeps the corruption levels from getting out of control.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 12:57:53 pm
content: I don't agree it is a stupid response. It can't deal with criminal corruption certainly, but that is a separate problem from slack enforcement of building standards. It will take a range of policy responses to deal with a range of poor practices.The courts will deal with corrupt behaviour irrespective of whether an engineer is responsible. But an engineer also faces the risk of loss of registration if found incompetent. Which is not so easily done when there is no clear definition of competence.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 01:17:31 pm
content: I agree that the response isn't stupid - but the choice of terminology that is used to define the scope is simplistic - and flawed.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 01:20:26 pm
content: Yes but gubbermints need to be seen by the public apparently addressing a problem.....usually of their own making due to incompetence.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 01:30:30 pm
content: Touché

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 01:33:01 pm
content: Let's support Dave in his idea of starting his own institute.I can see it now: The EEV Institute Ltd. - aka - EEVIL

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 01:35:05 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on August 28, 2019, 01:33:01 pmNope, you leftProfessional Engineersoff !

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 02:17:51 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on August 28, 2019, 11:37:43 amSo as I read that, every car mechanic, electrician and surely multiple other jobs come under that - will they have to down tools until they re-qualify? Do they define exactly what "profession engineering services" avtually means?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 02:24:53 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 28, 2019, 12:57:53 pmHave you actually seen courts deal with this kind of corruption well? Even on the odd occasion when they do, it doesn't help the hundreds of owners in a tower after it has been completed with weaknesses. You need effective and independent monitoring during construction, and you don't need terrific engineers to do most of the enforcement. When there are serious problems the plans are usually fine, but the construction doesn't follow the plans. You need honest motivated people to ensure the construction IS following the plans.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 02:34:39 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 28, 2019, 09:13:41 amIt won't end with registration fee. Welcome to be milked annual membership fees.

author: bleckers
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 03:03:54 pm
content: So I'm in a workplace with many very highly skilled and qualified Electronics, Software and Systems Engineers and none of them have professional registration. So with that none of us can endorse one and other basically. So we are sweet shit out of luck getting registration.Does this law come into effect straight away, because this is going to be one interesting shit storm tomorrow.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 03:18:28 pm
content: When you're driving a steam train for a job you can no longer call yourself a professional engineer?

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 03:20:03 pm
content: I hope this bonkers comes to the UK, we tend to put professional on the front of everything, and engineer on the end of everything.Professional Cleaning Engineer = floor sweeper.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 03:26:16 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on August 28, 2019, 03:20:03 pmLOL. Are you serious or is it slightly exxagerated?Over here we have a similar tendency, but nobody pulled off the "engineer" word yet though. We often see "technicien de surface" for that though, which would translate to "surface cleaning technician" (well, literally "surface technician", but that would sound weird.)

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 03:39:13 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 28, 2019, 03:26:16 pmIn the UK a floor sweeper wouldn't really like engineer added to their job title, as it might lower their status.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 03:44:09 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 28, 2019, 03:39:13 pm

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 03:55:33 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 28, 2019, 03:26:16 pmNot much.https://www.jobsite.co.uk/jobs/professionalProfessional OvenGleamer - MUST DRIVE - No other experience necessaryhttps://www.indeed.co.uk/jobs?q=Professional%20OvenGleamer&l&advn=2876171811820700&vjk=eb9e036daa931bfa#

author: engineer_in_shorts
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 04:28:52 pm
content: I would highly support a campaign for Dave to investigate what is required by the state of Victoria for his own registration system to be 'accredited'. I suspect they havn't thought about it yet and just rely on the existing institutions with the assumption that they do there job properly. In which case wouldn't it be a fair right for the state of Victoria to consider adding more institutions and therefore need to publish/disclose acceptance guidelines?Ideally Dave could set up his own institution with bare minimum requirements and then hand out registrations willy nilly.... ideally the cheapen the whole system for electronic engineers to receive registration by just entering an email address to a web page

author: Dundarave
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 04:46:13 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on August 28, 2019, 02:34:39 pmWe’ve had the legislated “Professional Engineering” regulatory regime in Canada for many years... The annual membership fees are just the start: It’s the mandatory (and expensive) “professional development” courses that are required for periodic certification that cost a bundle in terms of both time and money.Invariably, the regulatory body has to pay for itself, and charging for these courses is how they ultimately decide to do it. If not yet, it’ll be coming: just wait.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 05:53:32 pm
content: I dont see the problem. You are not allowed to place PREng or whatever on your business card, after your name. You have to place it in the next line, which is your job description. I dont think it matters, and I dont think anyone actually would know what the title means. The EE community is a merit based one anyway.However, engineer the code of ethics is a big one. I've seen people breaking it so many times. People are doing engineer-y things that are clearly not qualified to do so, and ending up proving the Dunning–Kruger effect everyday.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 06:47:16 pm
content: As in Canada, this has been the way it's done in the US for many years now. Since before I graduated college, which was (gulp) 31 years ago. To actually represent yourself as a professional engineer in the state I live in, you must pass a certification exam, which is mostly but not entirely related to your particular engineering specialty. IE< as an electrical engineer, most of the questions on the test I would take would be related to electrical engineering, but there would be some questions from other engineering disciplines - which is about as nonsensical as it gets. What do I know about chemical engineering? Or civil engineering? And why should I have to know that to practice as an electrical engineer?I don't THINK you have to renew anything, it's once and done, but it's been many years since I looked into it, and since my career path deviated almost immediately from electrical engineering, coupled with the odd cross-discipline requirement, I never bothered. So technically it's illegal for me to open a shop and hang a sign outside calling myself an engineer, or printing up business cards that say I am an engineer. At one time this was picky enough that the company I worked for changed my job title to avoid any question, although my current title is Senior Systems Engineer (I'm basically an IT consultant) but only sales and director level and above get business cards here. But i's on my tax forms, and I've reported that as my job title on various official forms.

author: FrankT
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 08:19:17 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on August 28, 2019, 07:15:43 am$760 per year athttps://www.professionalengineers.org.au/join-now

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 08:22:56 pm
content: Here in Tunisia we have this kind of engineering organisation, totally useless, have nothing to do with engineering they are mostly political ass-kisser. And as Dave said, it all started with building engineering architects, electrical, HVAC... And obviously you have to pay fees. No one is giving a damn about it, except those who have consulting offices mostly architects and anything relayed to building. Them speaking about engineering is like Ebola talking about the right to life.While am OK with maintaining some king of regulation on who's doing what in any facility accessible by public. limiting the name of "Professional" to some people is just wrong ... everyone doing engineering as a profession is by definition a "Professional" Engineer. This bill should be better defined. But as every bill in every country, written by monkey with a pen

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 08:33:07 pm
content: Quote from: FrankT on August 28, 2019, 08:19:17 pmThat’s a hefty fee to make up.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 08:33:13 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on August 28, 2019, 05:53:32 pmThat is not the problem.QuoteThis is the problem

author: S_g
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 08:45:52 pm
content: Indeed, the power industry in vic is about to get very messy. Design drafting is how most routine work gets done. But there is no “ prescribed standard” for a lot of it.You learn it on the job, personally i’m trade qualified in the power industry and have been designing power networks for over a decade, but I don’t have the magic 4 year degree. 1000’s of people like me in the industry.If they have taken the definition of “direct supervision” from the rpeq style legislation its basically impossible to work under. The registered engineer needs to be involved from day dot and be involved in every aspect and question basically.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 09:23:46 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 28, 2019, 02:17:51 pm“Professional engineering service means an engineering service that requires, or is based on, the application of engineering principles and data(a) to a design relating to engineering; or(b) to a construction, production, operation or maintenance activity relating to engineering—other than an engineering service that is provided only in accordance with aprescriptive standardPrescriptive standardmeans a document that states procedures or criteria—(a) for carrying out a design, or a construction or production activity, relating to engineering; and(b) the application of which, to the carrying out of the design, or the construction or production activity, does not require advanced scientifically based calculations;”Most general mechanics, electricians, etc should be fine because they operate “in accordance with a prescriptive standard” (service manual, code, standards book, etc). However, it sounds like a car mechanic doing some types of custom shop work may need to be licensed. Very high level mechanics such as some ship engineering positions, some power plant maintenance engineer position, etc will likely need a license.Basically I think if you make an engineering calculation that is not already laid out for you, license probably needed somewhere.

author: ziggyfish
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 09:39:44 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 28, 2019, 05:43:30 amDon't worry this won't be pass in NSW anytime soon, as the NSW government is Liberal, and Liberals very much dislike this sort of regulation.So if you're in the NSW make sure you vote for your local Liberal at the next election.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 09:47:05 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 28, 2019, 02:17:51 pmhere an education as electrician doesn't really mean you just go do electrical work, someone with the education as authorized installerand authorization has to take final responsibility that the work is done properly

author: S_g
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 09:53:56 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on August 28, 2019, 11:37:43 am"Advanced scientifically based calculations".AS7000 for example talks about calculating bending moments of structures and bearing pressure of soils. AS3000 has calculations of fault loop impedances etc etcare they "Advanced scientifically based calculations". ?Then go to electronics and control systems design, there are "standards" that are basically do your job

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 10:05:43 pm
content: It's the nature of government:A specific problem, in this case building standards, is used as a catalyst for legislation. The legislation is worded as vaguely and broadly as possible to cover the entire issue, but also has the effect of potential splash damage.Wouldthe government try to prosecute adjacent industries for such petty terminology? It would be a dubious use of taxpayer-paid-for time and resources. However that's hardly a solid reassurance. The equation should be weighted for government to justify such oversight over basic language.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 10:27:47 pm
content: QuoteSounds like the part p legislation introduced in the uk several years back,a knee jerk reaction that ended up with many qualified electricians being unable to carry out domestic work while a tile fitter who had sat through a 2 day power point presentation is deemed competent.Meanwhile the various cartels "advising" the goverbent are on a nice little earner from the registration scheme and carrying out the compulsory inspections and assessment .

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 11:19:48 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 28, 2019, 10:28:35 amIt's more the principle of the thing.For generations we have been getting along just fine with Chartered Engineer and the like.I'm surprised they didn't go for broke in this bill and try and protect the word engineer on it's own, but you know that what they want and it's coming eventually.My spidey sense doesn't like the slippery slope here

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 11:22:02 pm
content: Quote from: John B on August 28, 2019, 10:05:43 pmI would have been completely happy if they limited this the building, construction and infrastructure industry. e.g. so that Electrical Engineering only covered power stations and transmission lines etc.For this to potentially cover Joe Bloggs Electronics Engineer designing a farting novelty gadget is just silly.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 11:24:58 pm
content: Quote from: bleckers on August 28, 2019, 03:03:54 pmI don't think the bill actually limits engineers practicing as engineers, nor does it force anyone to join, or force companies to only hire registered engineers, but you are now technically not allowed to advertise for example "professional electronics engineering services".

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 11:34:53 pm
content: Quote from: engineer_in_shorts on August 28, 2019, 04:28:52 pmIt's an interesting idea...That reminds me of an idea for an organisation I've had for ages, lets me set that one up first...

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 11:47:21 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 28, 2019, 12:00:33 pmSo has Queensland been a safer place to live over the last 88 years? Is there any discernable difference in the safety stats between Queensland and Victoria related to failures of electrical engineers?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 11:48:02 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 28, 2019, 11:34:53 pmSubmissions to the International Order Of The Puff Of Smoke (OOPS) are now open:https://www.linkedin.com/groups/13757450/

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 11:50:34 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 28, 2019, 12:00:33 pmAre electronics design engineers in QLD registered?Can't recall ever seeing that requirement on a QLD job ad.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 11:52:34 pm
content: Quote from: FrankT on August 28, 2019, 08:19:17 pmIt's $233 in QLD according to thishttps://www.bpeq.qld.gov.au/information-for-engineers/become-a-rpeq/I remind everyone with predictions of doom that this legislation has been in place since 1929. You have to look closely at the situation there to see if it reveals any problems. Cars still get fixed for example.And in response to the suggestion voting Liberal (Tory, Republican, conservative or right wing) might be a sensible option. There was a sequence of ALP (Labor , Democrat or left wing) Premiers in QLD around 1929.

author: S_g
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 12:12:23 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 28, 2019, 11:22:02 pmA lot of that, to steal a electronic term, is jelly bean parts and not actually done by “engineers tm”. Technical Officers do a lot of the day to day engineering design workThe bill limits who can provide a “professional engineering service” which is the troubling part.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 01:32:58 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 28, 2019, 01:35:05 pmPEEVIL ... ?Well, I suppose that has a certain poetry about it, too.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 04:00:42 am
content: they must be mad about the building instabilities, and it caused a fear wave that is some how because of lack of qualifications that the designs got through? (so that safety design is not obvious enough)https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2019/08/22/manhattan-deadly-elevator-malfunction/(they might say there was insufficient controls that allowed the tampering to occur, or bad non intrinsically safe design)But will a PE license stop this? Or is in corruption in the industry that leads to a culture of compliance ?Electronics control systems do have have direct safety effects on elevators, smart cars, traffic lights, railroad crossings and aviation..and, the correct use of electronic measurement devices and design of measurement systems does effect structural engineers, they need to get the correct numbers that are not contaminated by bad equipment design (i.e. strain measurement, vibration and probably alot of things related to hydraulic measurements)

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 04:13:34 am
content: also, you may want to mop the ceiling of your laboratory, it got professionally 'painted'

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 05:17:41 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 28, 2019, 02:17:51 pmIt does define all the details if you read through the document, confining the requirements to specific areas of engineering all of which are building/construction related. The overall aim is to have a single register of authorised civil/public engineers for the building industry that confirms they:a) have the required training and experience for the jobb) have not been involved in fraud/insolvency/misconduct etcc) paid some money for the privilege of being registeredNot sure it requires insurance etc, but does describe the possible application of codes of conduct.Professional engineering services in other fields medical/electronic/RF are completely unaffected.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 05:26:02 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on August 29, 2019, 04:00:42 amEngineers designing/commissioning/approving the traffic lights in Victoria (Australia, the topic of this thread) are not professionally registered in any way. So when they make mistakes they are not accountable for their actions. Professional registration is a good thing in the interests of the public as you can make complaints and see them investigated, at the moment even if an employer fires an engineer working in the building trade for misconduct/negligence etc they can just pickup another job elsewhere and carry on.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 05:30:52 am
content: Now this is just silly, there are all sorts of engineers everywhere, in electronics someone who is not a professional engineer is called a electronics hobbyist instead.But how does this registration ensure that these registered engineers are any good?It only really makes sure they have 5 years of work experience, but that doesn't really mean much. There are many incompetent people that manage to keep there job somehow, same thing for an engineer. Just because they have yet to cause an engineering blunder that resulted in a catastrophic failure doesn't mean they are good at it. Or id they did and got fired for it then they just get a new job somewhere else for the rest of the 4 years.I forgot who it was but there was a structural engineer way back that was well regarded by everyone and ended up designing a lot of bridges and other structures. The guy died at some point before a bridge of his design collapsed. So there was an investigation into why it happened and they found the design of the bridge was not to snuff at all and full of blunders. Surprised by it they tried looking at another bridge he made just in case... and it was not up to standards at all, so they started looking at all the structures he designed and found most of the designs to be under-engineered, flawed or unsafe. But those designs ended up being good enough to not fall over yet, so nobody noticed they are bad designs. Maybe his design was also cheaper to build and that's why he was so well regarded and got so many of his designs built.So what does this new law do to prevent things like that happening again?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 05:35:44 am
content: Quote from: FrankT on August 28, 2019, 08:19:17 pmThats only one part of the system, and the competitor tohttps://www.engineersaustralia.org.auThey both provide recognition of training and professional development, and allow people to use their (effectively made up) post nominals.What is being introduced is another layer beside/above/around that, which applies additional checks on top of the professional associations before publicly listing a practitioner. Its another layer of ass covering and you could look at it as those above organisations have failed to provide enough confidence with their codes of conduct/enforcement, so the government is setting down the specific requirements.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 05:43:37 am
content: Quote from: Berni on August 29, 2019, 05:30:52 amIts like none of you either understand the current situation or could be bothered to read the legislation. At the moment engineers can just jump from job to job or swap registered organisation and there is nothing following them around. The new legislation is attempting to have a permanent record of sorts to keep known dangerous/unethical/fraudulent people out of operation.There has been quite a lot of media coverage of the complexities of the building certification/engineering problems that promoted this. Some of the problems are like the Volkswagen emissions scandal, you can meet the technical letter of the law and pass the requirements but deliver an intentionally poor result. This legislation probably won't fix those sorts of problems but will prevent the obvious "cowboys" who don't give a crap and let anything through.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 06:37:24 am
content: There are actually two levels of registration in the billThe first is for registering as a profession engineer with the business licensing authority; required for those offering or overseeing engineering services (whether or not building related) in structural, civil, mechanical, electrical, fire safety, any other prescribed engineering field. The prescribed fields are supposed to be published at some point at some gov webpage, with the intent they can expand to all major engineering areas without having to pass/amend a new bill for each added.The second registration isforprofessional engineerswho want to work on buildings, those professional engineers need additional authorization from the victorian building authority.Also apparently applies to anyone providing work to Victoria, including from overseas. Don't know how they plan to enforce that though.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 06:55:06 am
content: FAQhttp://www.dtf.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/document/Frequently%20Asked%20Questions%20for%20the%20engineers%20registration%20scheme.DOCX

author: bleckers
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 01:28:21 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on August 29, 2019, 06:55:06 amHmmm, scope creep incoming.It seems Electronics does fall under Electrical Eng too, so there's going to be a few lighter wallets on here. But Dave is right in an earlier comment, you can still perform as an Engineer, you just can't provide Professional Engineering services. However, most tenders will have this written into them, so it will be a basic requirement in Victoria.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 01:47:33 pm
content: I wonder what would happen if Universities / Technical institutes / Polytechs started offering degrees where theofficial title of the degree was "Professional Engineering" or "Professional Engineer in Electronics" that sort of thing.So you came out of the institute with a nice piece of paper saying you completed "Professional Engineer in Electronics".I don't see how any court would be able to prevent you putting the name of your qualification on your CV.Be fun to see them try. probably get laughed out of court.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 01:53:03 pm
content: Quote from: bleckers on August 29, 2019, 01:28:21 pmIt's probably my lack of imagination but how do you perform as an engineer without providing professional engineering services?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 02:07:38 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 28, 2019, 08:33:13 pmYes, you are right, I missed that part.Quote from: bleckers on August 29, 2019, 01:28:21 pmI dont see electronics engineering here. Electrical is a different story, you dont want your house to burn down I guess, because someone designed wrong wiring. But for example what happens if you design electronics (like me) into an ATEX/IECEX environment. You can blow up an oil refinery with electronics, and you dont need to be registered. But you need to be registered if you want to design a ballpoint pens as a mechanical engineer?

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 02:36:38 pm
content: So you can still provide any engineering services you want, just don't be professional about it.

author: sakujo7
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 03:49:58 pm
content: Looking at the referee requirements on the "professional engineers" site (which is slow and doesn't properly stick to HTTPS, so clearly they didn't have a professional software engineer set it up), there seems to be a bit of a bootstrapping problem.1. Assume a fair system where nobody starts out as registered2. Find 3 registered people to vouch for you3.4. Nobody ever gets registered.Obviously (1) is false and some people must get grandfathered in. There was something about a section 3.6, but it didn't specify of what document exactly, so they mustn't have had a professional communication engineer write their web pages....More seriously, this seems like a subtle attack on small consulting businesses. It doesn't matter if you have decades of experience, if you don't have the required three then everyone must quit and move to a big company (or provide only non-professional services, whatever that means).

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 04:06:32 pm
content: It used to be in California, at least, that an Electrical PE was only involved with utility or construction related design. Buildings and such.6701. Professional engineer defined“Professional engineer,” within the meaning and intent of this act, refers to a personengaged in the professional practice of rendering service or creative work requiring education,training and experience in engineering sciences and the application of special knowledge of themathematical, physical and engineering sciences in such professional or creative work asconsultation, investigation, evaluation, planning or design of public or private utilities, structures,machines, processes, circuits, buildings,equipment or projects, and supervision of constructionfor the purpose of securing compliance with specifications and design for any such work.Emphasis addedThey now have multiple categories for EEs including electronics as well as electrical. Even mechanical now includes registration for those who design machines and such.Heck, we even have a category for IT infrastructure or software engineering. One could argue that infrastructure and software are about as far away from engineering as Pluto is from the Sun.This PE idea is creeping further into areas that were previously not considered. It appears I can't consult on electronics or software projects without licensing. Or, at least, I would need to avoid using the term 'professional' engineer. One way this is done is to use the term 'designer'. Or just avoid labels altogether.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 07:32:14 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on August 29, 2019, 02:07:38 pmYou might not but by virtue that Electronics falls within a category of Electrical Engineering WRT qualifications the risk is real.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 09:01:04 pm
content: My 5cent outback on AU lawmaking:Since many electronics engineers do construct high power "electrical" power "things" i can see a court deliver a sledge hammer verdict if the case is based on e.g a death occured , engineer professional or not then becomes irrelevant. The argument stands engineer was professional and licenced yet death occurred, and if he was unskilled in his professional work causing the death engineer per definition was not professional! See how the lawmakers fucked the law writing up.If society want to prevent serious issues it should have law makers that at least can write specifically as proper juridic is about, i.e being specific else society dont need so many laws. But heeeey dont forget politics and politicians and truck load of various agendas play when laws are created.In the mean time, a gov representative say they want an engineer in charge, although not professional:

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 10:17:17 pm
content: you damn well know the construction company knew there was a problem, this stuff is usually obvious but the foreman lets it slide with wishful thinking and or is scared of becoming the next jimmy hoffa.The workers probably notice it too, 'this building sure is different compared to everything else I worked on' (usually a sign that the design is way more sensitive to tolerances). Alot of people in the trades are kind of.. interested in what they do and fairly knowledgeable.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 10:36:54 pm
content: is the builder a union shop? I bet its non union.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 11:07:17 pm
content: In Canada, a government act defines registration, license, the scope of practice, code of ethics, disclipline and hearings, use of stamp, limitations of professional techs etc. as law."Except as otherwise provided in this Act, no individual, corporation, partnership or other entity, except a professional engineer, a licensee so authorized in the licensee’s licence, a permit holder so authorized in its permit or a certificate holder so authorized in the certificate holder’s certificate, shall engage in the practice of engineering."Engineers are self-regulated through an association. Membership is about $400/year which is expensive, given that the association doesn't do much of anything to support ethics problems in corporations resulting in unsafe products or work.Disciplinary hearings are usually over an incompetent engineer i.e. who designed a chicken barn that fell over, or engineers outside of their expertise, i.e. EE that does some foundation reinforcement (Civil) work and the dirt collapsed.A company requires a permit to practice engineering, and nobody can use the word "engineer" in the company's name unless they have a permit to practice.It's all kind of early 1900's stuff when cowboys falsely claimed to be engineers, made buildings that fell over, or rail bridges that collapsed.The fact that anyone can be an engineering manager, rush, push and force their underlings to subvert safety, is still a problem. Trying to make the engineers entirely responsible, yet have no authority- is the illusion that is not being addressed.I went through a lawsuit of a construction firm that did some improv on an engineer's signed/stamped drawings for a project. There was a huge fight over whether the engineer is supposed to be on-site doing inspection and monitoring the construction to his drawings and is liable, verses the construction firm's cost cutting or ineptitude being the end cause of the substandard work.Opal Towers could never afford an engineer monitoring construction on-site. Mandating a lowly engineer to whistle-blow on corporate corruption is completely unrealistic. Let me know of another profession that works for.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 12:45:32 am
content: This article criticising the bill says rego could cost up to $6000 a year!http://www.trailermag.com.au/news/article/artsa-spurns-professional-engineers-registration-bill

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 12:46:37 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 29, 2019, 07:32:14 pmYes, probably the majority of courses in Australia are called "Electrical Engineering".One of my fears is that big companies hiring electronics engineers might see this bill and panic and ask their lawyers for advice, and you know what they are going to say... Next thing you know, all engineers at the company must be registered, and that will go in new job requirements, then other companies will see that company did it and they'll panic too...

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 01:18:59 am
content: $6,000 is crazy, does it come with a golf program and caviar dinners? Here the $400 annual member fee is usually paid by your employer, it does fall under some non-taxable category of union/professional dues.Canada's legal definition of the practice of engineering:(i) reporting on, advising on, evaluating, designing, preparing plans and specifications for or directing the construction, technical inspection, maintenance or operation of any structure, work or process(A) that is aimed at the discovery, development or utilization of matter, materials or energy or in any other way designed for the use and convenience of humans, and(B) that requires in that reporting, advising, evaluating, designing, preparation or direction the professional application of the principles of mathematics, chemistry, physics or any related applied subject, or(ii) teaching engineering at a universityIt's very very broad... they want software engineers in that definition too but of course you can't prove a program's correctness so how can you prove anything about that.To be a professional member, you need at least 4 yrs of engineering experience, as a Member In Training.There was a big stink about wanting immigrant engineers to become professional members in a quick approval process, the "shortage of engineers" crap. Getting university credentials out of another country is difficult and full of fraud, and the language barrier is significant when they write the Ethics Exam.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 01:27:51 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 30, 2019, 12:45:32 amThat article refers to this reporthttps://www.consultaustralia.com.au/docs/default-source/skills/ACIL_Tasman_CBA_full_report.pdf?sfvrsn=0as the basis for the $6000 annual cost to engineers.I'd like to know how they came up with that figure. I sure couldn't find it in the report. (Both the figure and the method, it seems to have materialised from thin air)The report does highlight pretty clearly the benefits of registration for engineers though so I don't see how referencing it supports their case. Unless they think people won't bother to read it.I'd forgotten about the Longford gas explosion. Then there was the collapse of the Westgate bridge. More recently I imagine the Brazilian mining company Vale wishes they had better qualified engineers build the mine tailings dams. Great for Australia and iron ore prices that they effectively took 80M tonnes of ore from the market.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 01:29:27 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 30, 2019, 12:46:37 amEdited to what will happen ! ^^^As usual, the law's an Ass !

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 01:33:44 am
content: I recommend not editing someones quoted text. The comment may become separated if others requote carelessly.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 01:37:02 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 30, 2019, 01:33:44 amI quite agree.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 01:43:41 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 30, 2019, 01:37:02 amI have some doubts. However put yourself in Dave's position in this case. He choose his words probably more carefully than yours have been.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 02:13:16 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 30, 2019, 12:46:37 amA large company:Good News!Our company is large enough that we only need a few engineering positions to be registered, the bulk fraction of engineering positions wont need to be registered; the registered engineers will oversee non-registered teams and sign off on the work.This means a minority of positions will need to be paid more, but the bulk of the engineering positions will now have lower compensation requirements on average! Additionally, as the registered engineers now take personal liability for the projects they sign-off, our companies own liability will be reduced too!

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 02:22:45 am
content: I skimmed that report and it's pretty gross. It appears to be dumping huge costs on engineers $3.1B over 20 years, making the whole thing a revenue stream beyond the intangibles such as the odd bridge collapse or explosion. Unbelievable AustraliaSmall business, sole-proprietorships, unemployed or laid-off engineers simply can't afford that shit. It also kills off engineering entrepreneurship.ACIL Tasman is out to lunch beyond repair. WTF is going on down under?

author: wilmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 09:02:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 30, 2019, 12:45:32 amOh my God. I was thinking about how much can cost to me. I design research experiments and robots, this means I do mechanical design, electric design, electronic design and software for the equipment. How many registrations I need?

author: wilmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 09:10:08 am
content: In my case is very fun, I have the title of Dr. Eng, I teach and develop the techniques that a "professional engineer will apply" but can not call my self "professional engineer without paying a fee.Oh yea.....I am waiting for the next meeting of Thief Australia to ask how much money do they want from my salary?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 11:43:19 am
content: All this just looks a lot like a good old protection scheme. You either pay your “membership fee” for which you get nothing of value in return or you risk getting pounded into the ground through what technically are legal means. You better pay up buddy, you wouldn’t want to fall down these legal stairs!

author: MyHeadHz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 02:49:44 am
content: Quote from: Bud on August 28, 2019, 02:34:39 pmYes, and next comes the mandatory periods (usually years) as lesser titles. And next, in order to begin a career in the field you must intern with an approved company under one of these new engineers- undoubtedly with a multi-year non-compete clause and other BS. This type of unethical law is incredibly detrimental to the industry, the employees, and the public. I don't know about other countries, but they are an absolute plague here in the US in a growing number of industries.

author: DukeOfEarl
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 01, 2019, 02:40:22 am
content: So does anyone know how this is currently working in Queensland??

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2019, 06:20:37 am
content: Quote from: MT on August 29, 2019, 09:01:04 pmI´ve read one article, which stated that the construction company botched up cracked pretensioned concrete parts to use them in a structurally important place, instead of replacing them as required. I mean inspection and oversight of construction sites is to some extent also up to the government, so it is a problem when blame is pushed back and forth (which probably does not stop after mandatory registration).But i understand the necessity of registration or at least some form of control, because as responsibilities are teached during education, anyone that did not participate would be able to reject knowledge of having them (apart from the obvious liabilities anyone has). It does not even have to be a completely technical issue, sometimes it is just the question who is responsible for what and what can be expected of who.QuoteEven then registration does not guarantee safety, as floobydust´s example points out:QuoteWhich means documentation is crucial for most decisions, also a responsibility.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2019, 07:56:40 pm
content: A small company I worked for ended up putting an engineer-in-training as my boss. He wanted to be licensed and asked me to be his reference on the application. So the boss was absolutely inept and nearly caused explosions on a few projects. So dumb with no regard for safety.I had photos of the work sites showing the serious safety violations the engineering boss allowed.Meeting with the Engineering Association, two of us engineers provided the pictures and written explanations and said "NO, NOT RECOMMENDED".All that, it just held off his license for being granted by a year. Why? The EIT can pursue legal action against the Association for them refusing to license him. It would result in a hearing or court actions.People proving he's an idiot engineer does absolutely nothing. This is how I learned professional engineer licensing is a total joke.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2019, 11:18:04 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on September 01, 2019, 07:56:40 pmExcellent! So summing it up, if being licensed becomes mandatory, all you have to do, pretty much, is not to prove you're qualified, but merely to just ask (and pay obviously).That won't show your competence, but that will certainly show your compliance.Guess which is more important to whom.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 05:50:24 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on September 01, 2019, 07:56:40 pmThat indeed completely voids the while point behind having such a regulatory body to keep idiots out.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 09:37:21 am
content: And so begins the slippery slope of the Victorian Professional Engineer legislation, it's now set to affect IT engineers.Quotehttps://www.itnews.com.au/news/tech-and-telco-engineers-face-mandatory-vic-registration-rules-530342

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 08:38:22 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 02, 2019, 09:37:21 amIf regulators overplay their hand, I could see an enormous class action lawsuit on the horizon as this would drastically impact on so many people's careers and income.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 10:25:39 pm
content: Quote from: John B on September 02, 2019, 08:38:22 pmLegislators make the law a judge can only follow. If you need a permit, you need a permit.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 10:40:40 pm
content: Quote from: John B on September 02, 2019, 08:38:22 pmYep they've lost the plot when they state 'with the aim of vetting those working on major infrastructure projects.'What ever happened to peer review of projects ?So legislators think by just implementing mandatory registration they can ensure engineering quality meets expected standards ?As usual, the law's an Ass !

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 07:30:47 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 02, 2019, 09:37:21 amYou need to tell the IT people what backdoors to implement.https://www.wired.com/story/australia-encryption-law-global-impact/

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 08:03:47 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on September 03, 2019, 07:30:47 amWhen both best practice and common sense are outright illegal things become interesting. Backdoors are obviously neither best practice nor common sense.

author: jhalar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 11:57:00 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 02, 2019, 09:37:21 amMost network engineers I know do not have 4 year degrees only industry certifications. I guess that they will not qualify to call themselves engineers.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 03:08:31 pm
content: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.........in disguise for something else to be implemented................globally!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 04:28:34 pm
content: Quote from: MT on September 03, 2019, 03:08:31 pmMaybe if engineering standards get dragged down enough it will be paved with solar panels.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 12:02:11 am
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on September 03, 2019, 11:18:12 pmSomething similar happened here in Western Australia a few years back.The Licensing Authority suddenly discovered that Electronic Technicians didn't just spend their time fixing pocket transistor portable radios & the like.Eeek! went they-------- "These people work on high voltages & aren't Licenced Electricians!!""Aeeeiiee! the sky is falling!"The upshot was that some of us had to get a "Restricted Electrical Licence" which was the same thing that Plumbers get so they can connect Electric Hot Water Systems!OK, there are different versions, mine allowed me to disconnect & replace equipment up to a certain power rating ---- as part of my job!I couldn't legally change a power point at home, though!The silly thing is that those of who had this "magic card" were somehow supposed to supervise those who didn't!Historically, much of the high voltage stuff done by Techs & EEs was in Broadcasting, the two sides of which were either directly employed by the Federal Government, or licenced by that Government.The States were effectively told to "butt out" if they stuck their noses into the Fed Govt run stuff, & the Private Sector places sort of inherited the same deal.When the "bean counters" in the the Federal side decided to "devolve" all these things, a "power vacuum" appeared, & the State authorities came sniffing around.It seems to have iust faded away to nothing------- maybe just too hard!The weird thing is that the category of "Electronic Technician" seems to be completely unknown to the various bodies you deal with.My "R" licence said something along of the lines of "working on computer equipment", the local council has a category for "repair of computer equipment" as the only thing at all close to an Electronic repair lhome business, & the industrial job agency I was with for a few years had me down as an "Instrument Technician".

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 12:36:35 am
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on September 03, 2019, 11:18:12 pmWho Megger tests any more ?Here, it's PAT tests and a competent person after passing a short course can do it.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 12:52:28 am
content: QuoteEverybody doing a pat test

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 12:58:53 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on September 04, 2019, 12:52:28 amSure but:QuoteDoesn't reflect the industry standard, at least not here.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 01:09:16 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 04, 2019, 12:02:11 amThere are plenty of people with a BSc, MSc or PhD in electrical or electronic engineering who have never dealt with anything more than a few volts, and have only an outline knowledge of the practices associated with mains power systems. There is a valid reason for having only approved people doing simple electrical work, and its to restrict the work to people who have passed a test in the local wiring regulations and practices. I can't see a valid reason to go beyond that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 01:43:40 am
content: I think ultimately all this hoopla is going to have little impact on the electronics design industry.It's hard to change an entrenched industry that (in this country) has been for generations operating on the "if you can do the job, that's all we care about" principle. And the politicians and media and public don't give a toss about people designing circuits and laying out boards for some industrial widget or novelty gadget, so most electronics design work is just so far off the radar that most companies aren't even going to know about this bill let alone care.I don't expect to see electronics design jobs in Victoria suddenly list this registration as a requirement.Even the most anal companies like the medical industry put at most "must be eligible for membership of the IEA". i.e. they don't care if you are member of not, they only care if you eligible (i.e. suitably qualified).

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 03:14:54 am
content: I should mention that we all get along now after common sense prevailed. I have better communications now with my opposite numbers and can pick up the phone and get excellent help if needed. Operations are far smoother and we have new leadership. And we have well defined boundries that make sense.My point is, the coming response in Victoria should result in some form of balence. You won't get back to the status quo pre bellum, but the courts, lobbyists, politicians, and industry will work something out in the end. Especially if the new rules damage the economy.Steve

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 04:25:47 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 04, 2019, 01:43:40 amI have a far more pessimistic view.Those that are pushing these changes will state president has been set in other 'professional' pursuits and once the ivory tower has been built vested interests will always want to grow it primarily for personal gain.It's a slippery slope !

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 04:28:03 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 04, 2019, 04:25:47 amYes, but the electronics design industry isn't really on the slid to begin with, never have been.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 08:28:46 am
content: Quote from: coppice on September 04, 2019, 01:09:16 amMaybe, but the problem is the nature of the approval, These things are often driven by industry bodies with vested financial interests. Classic example is the Part P building regs farce in the UK, where to do domestic work you need registration with NIC/IEC, and can qualify with a 1-week course.Meanwhile it's technically illegal for me to do my own domestic wiring.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 10:54:51 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 04, 2019, 01:43:40 amThe problem is that an arbitrary stick is created to beat people with. You won't know it's there until someone decides to take you to task. It introduces liability and leads to unfair situations under the guise of actually being for the better.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 11:33:55 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 04, 2019, 08:28:46 amI am conflicted on this. Most people in the UK do not live in detached houses. What they do can affect their neighbours and can certainly affect members of their own family. While registration inhibits the legitimate activities of people like you and I, it does reduce the likelihood of idiots doing genuinely dangerous things. I've seen a lot of horrifyingly botched electrical installations that almost look like the work of an arsonist.Have you ever noticed that the people who say they are afraid of electricity are usually the ones doing things that should make them afraid?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 11:51:42 am
content: Quote from: coppice on September 04, 2019, 11:33:55 amDoes anyone really think these people can be stopped through a licensing scheme? If they don't care about the basics they definitely won't care for formalities.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 02:44:25 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 04, 2019, 11:51:42 amNo one can be stopped from doing stupid things, but gross negligence could be proven by applying these formalities as criteria. A trained professional can be sentenced to a much higher compensation should errors have been made, or banned for lifetime from this kind of job (by revoked registration), while a layman would be under less scrutiny and liability.Of course it is the physics that count at the end of the day, but many practices decide about the longevity and safety of a work, and it is often very simple things that matter. You might be teached which norms exist in higher education, but are not tested for knowledge of their content. Many fields are too wide for a single person to know everything.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 03:26:38 pm
content: Quote from: SparkyFX on September 04, 2019, 02:44:25 pmAnother problem is that the best practice tends to shift over time and sometimes can't make up its mind. Some NEN standards have changed only to change back. Does that mean it was correct and then suddenly wasn't? Or does than mean it was correct in both cases?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 05:59:31 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 04, 2019, 11:51:42 amYou can't stop people doing dumb things, but you can greatly reduce the frequency. There are consequences for ignoring regulations, like it being hard to sell your home unless all non-compliant stuff is sorted out.

author: DutchGert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 06:32:21 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 04, 2019, 01:43:40 amIt is funny you put it like that: "if you can do the job, that's all we care about"Here in the Netherlands it the other way around and a degree is getting more and more a mandatory thing. Here only with the appropriate bachelor or masters degree you can call yourself "Ingenieur" (Engineer) which is an official title (ing/ir before your name) just like MSc or BSc is.To me this seems like a good thing and asures that you at least have some competence in the field (yes, here a 4 years engineering course is still a hard thing). To me, flimsing around with some transistors or laying out some simple boards makes you a great hobbiest but not make you an engineer.In my field (Automotive) things like Functional Safety etc are getting more and more important and in order to design good circuits you need to have some formal education to do all the proper calculations, see how it all fits together etc.So I dont really get why you would be against this.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 09:41:10 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 04, 2019, 03:26:38 pmFor electrical installations there can be a grandfather policy, which means OK until changes are made or it is a new installation. If something were a safety issue, it should not exist in the first place.Even as certified electrician you might need to prove that you are up to date regarding changes in code should there be an accident.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 10:00:27 pm
content: Yep, over here it's a COC (Code of Compliance) and a paper doc that copies are sent to the relevant recipients.If work doesn't comply with the regs at date of COC issue you are in the poo !

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 10:01:46 pm
content: QuoteNot in the uk were part p is concerned. I can legally play with multiple 100kva 3 phase supply's, with 1000's of people at risk if i get it wrong but i cant change the light fitting in my toilet.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 11:49:19 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on September 04, 2019, 10:01:46 pmDon't exagerate. Minor changes to existing wiring - like replacing a damaged wire, changing a broken socket, or changing a light fitting - are listed as not requiring any notification or approval.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2019, 03:34:55 pm
content: NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.An optional additional explanation is:

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2019, 03:45:47 pm
content: Quoteunless its in a special locations,such as a location containg a bath or shower.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2019, 05:03:18 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on September 05, 2019, 03:45:47 pmThere are specific safety concerns for electrical fittings near bathroom and kitchen fittings, which is not unreasonable. I believe toilets don't count, though. You are OK doing things around those. I assume the logic is that you don't usually get wet using a toilet.The regulations are pretty stupid in general. I need approval to install a new ring circuit, but I can make a series of incremental changes to one, until it looks nothing like the original. Its the wiring regulations of Theseus.

author: lilstevie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2019, 06:58:13 am
content: Quote from: DutchGert on September 04, 2019, 06:32:21 pmI disagree. My formal training is as a high school physics and mathematics teacher. As a hobbyist I was working with i.MX6's and DDR3, where the standard is for hobby layout varies so very much. My formal education in electronic design and analysis is limited to the 2 first year engineering fundamentals units, and thishttps://www.vu.edu.au/units/NEE2101,I am quite capable of doing the proper calculations and know how it all fits together. Sure, I can always do with more knowledge, but that equally applies to something you have a full formal education in, and something that you've done maybe 12 weeks on one year.I think what is far more valuable than a degree from uni is actual experience designing things, plus professional development courses. When it came to education, I learned more about being a good teacher from the PD offered through schools, than I did in my entire 4 year B.Ed