open offices: do you like them, hate them, both or neither? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:26:59 am
content: there seems to be a new trend in corporate office areas. once, the cubicles (dividers) were all the rage. now, more and more, companies seem to be buying into the fad of so-called open-offices or bullpen style, where you have essentially no noise or visual dividers between employees. its often called a collaborative office arrangement.have you been in cubes and then converted to the OO style? have you always been in the OO style? what's your take on how well it worked for you and your peers. what do you think the -real- motivation is, for companies to convert to this?

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:35:35 am
content: In the last 2-3 years our large high-tech company has remodeled many traditional gray cubicle office areas to the "open-plan".There has been MUCH grumbling from employees who were forced into that scheme, and there has been recent management retreat from the notion.One of the purported reasons for the change was to make the workplace look more attractive to recent graduates.But then, us old-hands are thinking that those newbies don't even know what real work is yet, and the OO scheme is NOT conducive to most jobs, IME.

author: theatrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:45:55 am
content: I've always been mixed - they do actually have benefits in fast and loose software or creative design, but not all tasks qualify. The better designs have open and closed areas where you can retreat.This is first hand experience working at a big social media company in SF.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:49:02 am
content: that's what our company is also saying: that it will 'attract younger employees and graduates'.do you guys really buy that excuse?for the younger ones out there: do you really think that a lack of dividers is a good thing? if so, why? I'm honestly curious as to what the attaction is, when the result is more noise, more colds/flus shared, and overall less privacy.my last company converted to OO and it was a disaster. HR continued to sing the 'its great!' song but none of us bought it. I switched companies recently, we have cubes now but there is a corp plan to conver to OO. seems its really hard to fight this trend and the execs all seem to have bought into it. I notice that not a single exec LIVES in this environment; they all retained their hardwall offices. 'do as I say, not as I do'. harumph ;(

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:49:04 am
content: Pure corporate masturbation -- give me a corner office any day!Tim

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:56:24 am
content: In my company, even the execs (all the way to the top) have gray cubicles. Now, they are often (but not always) found at the corner of the floor by the window.They do, however, get the perk of having first-call on a conference room and they don't have to compete weeks in advance for a room when they need it.If you don't have a meeting with 4-5 people in it, you are sent to the cafeteria to compete with 47 other small meetings at the same time. But at least it is close to the free coffee/soda.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 03:09:21 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on June 19, 2014, 02:26:59 amWe got converted almost 10 years ago to the open office. I hated every second of it. You can't hear yourself think, everything is an interruption to your work, you have to put up with everyone's bitching/bullshit conversations, etc.I loved having my own office with a door and it didn't matter how big or small or where it was located. If I needed something, I could always go into someone's office or call someone into mine and no one ever had a problem with that. If I wanted privacy, I always closed the door and no one had a problem with that.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 03:21:43 am
content: when we (last place) converted to OO, suddenly all the conference rooms were busy all the time. our company did not allow work-from-home (sigh) and so there was no easy way to deal with the noise other than to take a conf room. and to make phone calls, again, you had to walk outside or hunt around for a CR.my new place does allow work-from-home and its been said that for the groups who have had their space converted, many of them are now forced to work from home just to have a bit of quiet and remove the distractions.someone at work floated the idea that the OO conversion had the unspoken agenda of trying to 'convince' the older guys to quit or retire early. sounds pretty evil to me, if that was an actual motivation (I would believe it, I don't see older guys being hired much and mostly its all 20's and 30's at the bay area software companies).younger employees will take a job because its a good company or because it offers skills they want. would anyone take a job -because- of the OO style? when I interviewed, over the years, and saw an OO, I usually marked that company down as 'do not want to work there'.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 03:55:21 am
content: I dislike both styles, and so does everyone else in my organization (including management).Therefore, we all have home offices where we work 95% of the time. We only come in to the "physical office" when an in-person interview is needed or for large meetings. Smaller meetings (three or fewer) are done over teleconferencing. The exception to this is on-site visits to customer sites where we spend one or two weeks in a customer office environment (which varies).Strangely, some people cannot handle this style of working. We've had a couple hires who just couldn't deal with the lack of a communal office space and left to rejoin corporate America after a few months.But for me, this arrangement of working from home almost all of the time is fantastic. I hate being forced to deal with obnoxious people all day (in additional to daily commute traffic).

author: skipjackrc4
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 04:10:31 am
content: I'm a young guy, and I hate open office concept. The best place I worked, everyone had offices (2-3 people per office, but it was quiet) surround a common lab area. Everyone had their own lab bench and equipment, with communal VNA and other high dollar stuff. That was a good setup. Not a cubical or open space desk in the building.I've also worked full time in an open lab, which got kind of loud. But I could just turn the 32 RU power supplies on and the hum drowned it all out ;-)

author: jhalar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 04:15:35 am
content: When my workplace went openplan there was a rise in the number of things, balls, nerf projectiles thrown between workers for fun.Management got fed up with it, even after some warnings and started re-introducing the cubicle walls. The walls were not as high asthey were originally but it reduced the throwing of stuff.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 05:14:38 am
content: link from a net search:http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/currency/2014/01/the-open-office-trap.html

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 05:47:31 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 19, 2014, 03:22:24 amAbsolutely.Quote from: wilfred on June 19, 2014, 03:22:24 amWithin any business there will be a mix of requirements for different workers, lets look at how Microsoft dealt with one of their engineering teams work area. Seated at work benches equipped with space for their test equipment and devices they are working on.(fromhttp://www.engadget.com/gallery/where-the-xbox-was-built-an-inside-look-at-microsofts-play-for-the-next-generation-of-gaming/)Then compare to the layout that Agilent chose for their engineering floors of the most recent building. Where the office spaces are almost uniform for every employee, and the desks have no room for working on devices.(fromhttp://www.archdaily.com/473650/agilent-technologies-anna-maskiell/)

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 06:04:55 am
content: 27 years ago, in 1987, Tom Demarco and Timothy Lister wrote a book calledPeopleware. They covered many topics, and in a large part of the book they said all there is to say about office environments. From the "Furniture Police" (morons monitoring clean desk policies), over "The Telephone" (the source of all evil), to "Bring back the door". They nailed it.Since 27 years managers have no excuse any more when they fuck it up and come up with bullshit like open offices, clean desks, or hot seating. It is all just about cost. When they tell you something different they are just lying sacks of shit.

author: Seán
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 07:42:29 am
content: The office I work in is the open plan sort, and I actually like it ...that been said I would have no objects to the more enclosed set up.Anyway ...our office seem to be quite different in that we are all very quiet, so the distractions are limited. Plus we all have pretty good desk space for anything we are working on, so you are never on top of anyone.I think the OO method allows for more discussions on work related topics (as well an non-work related topics of course), so this allows someone to get input from those around them, pretty quickly, easily and openly. I think it works well for us. We also are lucky in that there are meeting rooms in our office which are generally available, or if it came to it, there are nice walkways and what have you where we are based, so you can always go on a short walk to discuss any issues if you wanted.Seán

author: Dago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 07:55:59 am
content: Our (small, about 15 people or so) office has basically three rooms (and couple of real offices) so about 4 people per room without any dividers. I personally don't mind it and might actually find it slightly annoying if I couldn't ask something from my colleague just across the table. I've never been too easily distracted though. But there's not that many distractions in here anyway though, if someone has a call they usually go to a common area or meeting room to talk. I do see how it might get distracting if there was loads more people...

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 09:33:43 am
content: I work in an open office, where they have people from 3 different department stuffed in. I hate it. This is pure hell. The office clown is sitting 5 meters from me, on the other side of the room they talk constantly about databases and other bullshit. Headphones are banned. I've worked with offices of 4, that was better, but still, you need to like the people.I've once interviewed at Bosch, they had a huge room with endless cubicles, about 100 person in the same room. That was scary, honestly, I don't want to be one of the guy in the grinder.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 10:03:38 am
content: heh, so many manages don't get the whole inverse proportional relationship between engineer productivity and the openness of the office layoutEngineer: "You want that code finished by Monday? impossible"Boss: "There must be a way"Engineer: "Sure, book me a hotel for the week. just me, my laptop and no phones"I'm currently working in a company where the production line staff, quality assurance staff and R&D engineers are all in the same room with no dividers at all.

author: woodchips
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 11:25:18 am
content: Ah yes, the Peopleware book, recently re-read it and still as good.Did they mention 'flow'? Can't remember. Flow is when you do concentrated brain jobs, you get immersed in it and the work just flows. Basically without flow you won't ever get a quality job done due to the incessant interruptions usually due to noise. Best place I worked had small offices, I can remember designing PC boards (yes, that long ago) and looking up and being amazed that 2-3 hours had passed of which I was totally unaware. The best thing about working from home is the quiet, can get error free work done.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 12:54:28 pm
content: Quote from: woodchips on June 19, 2014, 11:25:18 amYes, they do. They have the classic example how four short, well placed, interruptions can ruin productivity of a whole hour.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 01:06:43 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on June 19, 2014, 02:26:59 amWorking in an open space sucks. Way too much noise and distraction. I can't get any work done in such an environment. It is one of the reasons I quit my previous job. I guess you are much better off in a cubicle. If I ever get a job again I expect to share an office with 1 person at most.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:12:23 pm
content: Quote2nd that.Cooperation and collaboration are critical in a team environment.

author: DJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:16:30 pm
content: IIRC, a decade or two ago, HP went open office, all the way to the ceo's.B-school types celebrated yet another managerial moment of brilliance.Shortly thereafter, the bigwigs quietly returned to their offices with real doors, and the matter was no longer mentioned**until it was rediscovered again. Rinse and repeat.Big 8 (no longer) accounting/consulting services were usually at the root, or a ceo who read some stuff in the HBR.Would love to see personnel try open offices. They know all the dirt on everyone, and quite often have some peccadillos of their own

author: gxti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:34:37 pm
content: I worked the first 5 years of my career in a software startup that had "bullpens". I didn't really hate it, but it was definitely less than ideal. That company was acqui-hired by a large software company that gives every permanent developer their own office, so I'm in the interesting position of seeing how a team adapted to moving into offices. If anything it's louder sometimes because people still yell at each other down the hallway from their offices. And of course they have informal meetings, exchange gossip, and generally bitch and moan in the hallway, where it carries a long distance. But at least now I have the option of closing the door. Maybe I'll get some sound-absorbing wall hangings.

author: Legion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:36:17 pm
content: About 4 years ago I switched to working from home full time. It's been great, but now that I'm so acclimatized to it, I'm worried what would happen if/when this gig ends. I don't think I'd last a week in a job where I had to fight traffic to get there, get micromanaged and deal with office politics. Commutes are the worst. Waiting in a long line to go somewhere you don't want to be. Talk about insult to injury.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:39:32 pm
content: Joel Spolsky had a series of articles about office space and how his company made their new offices and how productivity is increased with private offices for employees and by buying some higher end stuff instead of trying to be as cheap as possibleHis blog is herehttp://www.joelonsoftware.comField guide to developers :http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/FieldGuidetoDevelopers.htmlBionic office:http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/BionicOffice.htmlNew Fog Creek office:http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/12/29.htmlThere was also an interesting article about how buying more expensive chairs, or ssd drives to every computer improves productivity and gives more value back... as they're fixed costs and don't have to be replaced often and so on.. but I can't find it right now.

author: DJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:52:01 pm
content: Quote from: Legion on June 19, 2014, 02:36:17 pmIt can be done, but not without headphones. I used noise-cancelling models (no music necessarily, just knocking down the ambient babble)Worst is people coming by to bs when one is clearly working. Set up an app to call your own phone when people get too chatty

author: Legion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:54:06 pm
content: Quote from: DJ on June 19, 2014, 02:52:01 pmThat's a good idea! I also like Bob Widlar's idea of placing noise makers around the office that get louder and more annoying the more noise people make.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 03:40:10 pm
content: Quote from: Legion on June 19, 2014, 02:54:06 pmI usually start desoldering if I have annoying people talking right behind my back. I have a Weller HAP 200 next to my desk, sometimes I call it the "conversation killer".

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 03:45:55 pm
content: QuoteSeems to be fairly anti-social.Put it this way: think of you in a competition with other engineers. As engineers, you are pretty much neck to neck in anything engineering - if you can design a good circuit, changes are that other engineers can too; ...So any investment in making you a better engineer would at this point have limited return.The place where you can maximize your return would be those areas where other engineers don't do as well, or do poorly, like communications, socializing, business strategies, marketing, .... aka anything non-engineering.So next time you want to turn on that noise maker, think about this conversation.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 04:56:19 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 19, 2014, 03:45:55 pmThat's a good theory, but in practice it's total bullshit. Yes, teams need to communicate and collaborate. SOME of the time.But MOST of the time they need to be uninterrupted so that they can be allowed to focus on the tasks that they are responsible for completing. So provide the team with tools and spaces for collaboration when they need it, but leave them the F alone when they need to get some actual work done.There is plenty of time after hours to toss around some BS over a few pints of beer, and if a joke is just too good to wait then there is always email. It doesn't need to happen in-person all day long while some folks are busting their rump to meet a deadline.There is also the problem of contagious illness. The common trend nowadays is to combine sick time with vacation time in one big "PTO" bucket. This incentivizes people to come in to work when they are clearly sick (nobody wants to use up their PTO time). The result is that larger offices are a breeding ground for things like seasonal flu. With no barriers between people all day long those airborne bugs spread like wildfire in an OO or cubicle layout. Individual offices help quarantine things quite a bit better, but of course working from home is the best prevention. I've only gotten sick once in the past 3 or 4 years while working 95% from home, while it was a two or three times per year event back in my OO/cubicle years.Btw, from my experience cubicle farms are not really any better than OO. You can still hear the guy in the cube next to you farting, and smell the nasty cold chinese noodles the jerk across the room brought in for lunch.

author: DJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 05:07:42 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 19, 2014, 03:45:55 pmIf you think Widlar's work could just as easily be done by any NSC staff engineer...

author: Legion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 05:16:32 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 19, 2014, 03:45:55 pmI'm not an EE, I'm a software developer at a finance firm. No one I work with could distinguish a resistor from a cap. I suppose that's not the thrust of your argument though. I've never had a problem with communication skills, but perhaps after 4 years of working from home I may have developed some social awkwardness.The Oatmeal captures it pretty well here:http://theoatmeal.com/comics/working_home

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 05:25:59 pm
content: Quote from: Legion on June 19, 2014, 02:36:17 pm+1. I have been a remote Field Service Tech for 10 years. I have a company van fully stocked with spare equipment and tools if I can't fix the issue by phone/remote connect. I have a 9.5' by 22' "office' space that has my workbench, desk, storage shelves and my ham radio desk that is at the back of the house. Almost everything is DIY except the old fashioned school teacher's desk my ham radio gear sits on, so it is a comfortable, functional space that suites my needs. Before that, I was a field service tech for 5 years that only went to the office to get my service calls and parts for the day. I would hate to go back to a 4 walled building, surrounded by people that had to potential to get on my nerves for 8 hours a day. I hope we win a new contract next year so I can keep what I have going.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 05:31:02 pm
content: QuoteI think the answer depends on what your goal is. I consider myself to be in the business of maximizing return on my time, so working with people and coming up with ideas are vital to what I do.If you consider engineering to be your goal and being an engineer working with parts rather than people, well, that's a perfectly valid response as well.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 06:42:04 pm
content: We went from an office with +/- 6 people to an open plan, clean desk policy and all the other attached bs.The clean desk policy lasted for about a week. After a month people started to make their own cubicles out of cardboard boxes.It's absolutely terrible. Having no walls means that people just start asking everything instead of looking stuff up. Preferably by shouting across the room. Don't expect to be able to concentrate properly anymore, you'll get interrupted at least 10 times a day. I wear in-ear headphones or earplugs all the time, otherwise I just can't get anything done.Those free to pick places are by far the worst part, every damn time you're adjusting your desk and chair for half an hour until you find something comfortable. Never tolerate anything slightly less than optimal, it will destroy your back.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 02:21:42 am
content: I fear the shared flu and colds; I am currently a contractor and I don't get paid time off AT ALL. no vacation, no sick time, no nothing. when I was 'fulltime' we had paid sick leave and so, if you were sick it didn't cost you money to stay home. now, it costs me 8 hours of pay if I stay home due to illness. and of course, its not just me; almost my entire group is contractors (its the new trend: hire people but avoid paying them benefits that we all used to get, decades ago) and so we all don't want to lose a day's pay for any reason, if we can avoid it. that means people will be coming to work sick more often and spreading it around.I just don't see the upside to the OO concept. its very rare that people are 'collaborating'. if you need to do a design together, you schedule a conference room, do your discussions there and then go back to your office area to do the real work.what I'm hearing is that, almost universally, no one prefers the OO style. no one except the bean counters who think they are saving money.(I used to have a job where I was telecommuting 99% of the time and I loved it! no driving to work in the AM or home in the PM, saved a lot on gas and car wear/tear, avoided lots of speeding tickets by staying OFF the road, probably avoided lots of accidents, too (as good as you are, the other guy can still be an idiot and hit you). I did not get distracted by office politics and I could control the heat/cool level, noise level and have decent food for lunch. it was all positives and for over 5 years, I did that telecommute thing. I was quite sad when that gig ended and I had to give up that work-at-home style.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 02:41:14 am
content: You can thank Obama for pressuring companies to hire contractors instead of regular full time.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 03:19:20 am
content: flu shots are a scam. some people believe in them, some don't. I've never seen it work well enough across enough people to justify it.and you'll still get sick, shot or no shot. the fact is: for contractors, the OO 'germ pool' is often a real monetary cost to us. and those who force people into OO environments are NEVER contractors and they have full benefits (and often, their own private offices) and so they don't eat their own dogfood, so to speak. they have no idea what wrong they are doing to us. quite disconnected with everyday life of the employees. typical HR, sigh.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 04:42:29 am
content: Flu shot is a guess as to the most common variety expected that season. Reduced the severity by a lot, but does little to protect against the other 100 variants that can also come to the fore. So you have 3 days less symptoms, and less additional complications, but you can still get the others that were not included full force.OO seems to be a very good way to spread infection, almost as good as an airplane where they recirculate the air completely.Odd fact is that originally the 747 used to only use cabin air once and dump it from the rear, with new air coming in from the compressor bleed off the engines, but they decided to recirculate air to cut fuel costs, as the bleed air is wasting engine power. Now they recirculate most and only bleed off a small amount to keep oxygen levels and CO2 levels inside limits.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 09:39:39 pm
content: LOL, I am pretty sure that the shift towards heavy reliance on contractors in most high-tech industries pre-dates the Obama administration. And the Bush administration for that matter.I've been accustomed to working with engineering teams that are mostly (sometimes entirely) made up of external contractors since the late 90's. Some of the very best teams have been at the extreme end of the spectrum - upwards of 80% contractors.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 11:08:14 pm
content: I started out as an Architect and spent many years looking at the - Who, What, Where, When, Why & How (did I forget one?) which describes how any task needs to be carried in the most efficient way. Whilst excellent logically there is a missing dynamic which is vital to good design:- unsurprisingly this is operative welfare.The current predilection for high density open plan offices is highly reminiscent of the old mills of England or other more recent sweatshops which have had little regard for human comfort.I have worked my own office, a shared office and in a large open plan office. As to which is best there is no one true answer; it depends on the circumstances.In my view the extra noise, general exposure, lack of privacy & identity in high density open plan offices is counterproductive.Conversely I found that in a small office of 4 to 6 people it is easier to exchange ideas & knowledge and maintain a good throughput.It all depends on the situation. Hopefully the 'Mill owners' will again realize that overcrowding is shortsighted.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2014, 11:53:24 pm
content: Were I work we move places at least once a year, sometimes you fall at a nice spot in an corner office with large windows and nice view (my current spot while my manager is in a large open space) and sometimes in the middle of an open space (my planned spot in the Q3 move). Initially I cared, especially since in my previous company every employee had a single office, but you get used to anything. You also get very efficient with the move, I can pack and mark my stuff in less than an hour. If it gets noisy I put on my Bose noise canceling headset, or take my notebook computer and find a quiet place or just work from home. It's considered to be non cool to complain about desk arrangements or other status symbols.In general I air condition quality affects me more than open vs office sittings.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 01:39:28 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on June 20, 2014, 02:41:14 amexcuse me? is that a joke?the move to contractors predates obama by a long-shot.this is not about politics. its about ceo's wanting to cram more people into limited space and also, to some degree, about managers wanting to keep a closer eye on employees.

author: DJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 01:51:36 am
content: May be referring to healthcare, which is not going exactly as planned. Too many older folks and not enough younger ones are signing up. In any case, companies have this added to their regular pursuit of quarterly numbers, in a mad dash to cash out before the whole mess goes. Best probably for a different forum...Interesting times, as the old saying goes.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 03:11:56 am
content: Obamacare is just another excuse for companies to hire contractors in order to cut out the rising healthcare cost. Sad thing is that many modern health issues are caused by GMOs and/or factory farming, so phasing those out would be the way to cut down healthcare costs. ("The real healthcare is a healthy lifestyle, of which its main part is a sustainable diet.")Back on topic, the lab environment at most companies is a lot like the "open office".

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 03:15:19 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on June 21, 2014, 01:39:28 amHe and Pelosi penalized full time employment so it's serious.Quote from: linux-works on June 21, 2014, 01:39:28 amFeel free to start your own company and create jobs with better working conditions. Those people that created jobs for us are just like you and me. They did not born special.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 03:24:34 am
content: I may still be a bit of a youngin, but I've worked in industry for a few years before I came back to grad school. I worked for a large company and we had individual cubicles. (As a contractor none the less.) I much more enjoyed that than my current situation where we have 6 grad students in an office probably twice the size of my old cubical. Basically what happens now is that two people in the lab will start talking, draw everyone else into the conversation, then no work will get done for an hour or so.More annoying is when people start talking about personal things, then get loud and start laughing. It's very hard to get work done in a situation like that.I'm a fan of cubicles because of privacy. If you want to take break some time you don't have be self conscious about looking at youtube for a few minutes. People worth keeping as employees will get their work done, pressuring them to work for 8 hours straight won't help that. People who can't handle the freedom won't get work done, and aren't worth keeping. There are busy times and lulls in everyone's work. I don't necessarily support the "come in whenever the heck you want" mentality though. People need to be there in case someone needs them and being able to rely on people to be there is key.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 11:12:45 am
content: QuoteI am a big supporter of that, as well as "get your shit done before you go home".

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 01:24:17 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on June 21, 2014, 03:15:19 amoh, the 'job creators' argument.blech. sorry, that's just republican talking points. this does not belong in this thread.the response should not be 'if you don't like our rules, go start your own'. would that scale? would it be reasonable to tell that to factory workers (which IT is now becoming), those who were not born into wealth, those who don't have good connections (its all about connections; its not really a meritocracy, at least in the US) and the argument of 'go start your own!' is just not a reasonable response to poor working conditions.back in the union forming days, no one said 'you dont like it here, go start your own factory!'. that was NOT being said. what was being said was 'these conditions stink and we need to fix them'.that sentiment is mostly lost, now. the 'job creators' argument is being passed around. "feel lucky we even give you a job" is the take-away sentiment. and in the modern age, this is a very stale argument, indeed. we deserve a lot more than this and we fought for a lot more than this, many decades ago.the sweatshops are returning. this is a sign of it.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 07:18:45 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 21, 2014, 11:12:45 amOne does not preclude the other. My (limited) experiences tell me that people who don't want to come in at a decent hour aren't the type of people who are going to want to stay after 5 and get work done by themselves. Allowing people to come in whenever often brings up the question "Is so-and-so here yet?" Not good if a customer/client/professor/big boss comes in. Then again, it could work well in some professions (software programmer) but not others (IT professional) because people do not depend on the former for timely problem resolution but do so the latter. I realize that people are different and like working at different hours, but normal working hours are 9-5ish. Working outside of those hours is going to hurt productivity if you have to depend on other businesses to do your work (ordering things, calling to resolve problems, emailing with collaborators, etc. etc.) If you're working at 7 PM and you need to order something, you're SOL until the next day, where as if you had been working during normal business hours you'd have your product a day sooner. It's the same if you collaborate with someone across the world. You'll often come in earlier or later so that you can call or e-mail them effectively, or else you're limited to one e-mail back and forth a day.That's my opinion at least.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 07:39:27 pm
content: you are not seeing how engineering really works.the 40 hr/week thing is a myth. we are usually expected to check email frequently from home, possibly call in for conference calls at odd hours (global workforce means 6am and 7am calls as well as 10pm and even 11pm calls).so, if I'm expected to meet those kinds of needs, the LEAST the company can do is allow me to skip commuter rush hour hell and shift a bit to avoid that. if I'm in at 10am, so what? I probably did an hour of email or more before I even set foot in my car, and I'll check it and deal with issues when I come home, as well.this is not the 1900's anymore and flex hours is not really a luxury when you are expected to do early AM work, late PM work and weekends, here and there.'traditional' 9-5 business is not at all the same as software or even hardware development work.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 07:43:47 pm
content: For me it's all about desk size.I didn't really care as long as I have a sufficiently big desk and something behind my screen to avoid distractions.Anyhow, my next job is on a ship, so no bloody office

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 07:21:53 am
content: You have an office, it just floats.......

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 07:53:23 am
content: I'll be in the engine room...If I do my job well, it can take as little as two hours a day. Do it badly and you can be knee deep in gunk 24/7.The upside of doing it right, is that I'll be on standby the rest of the time, waiting for an alarm.And what are the two doors in front of the engine control room door you might ask?A fully equipped metal shop and a nice electronics work shop (welding, meters, two oscilloscopes, power supplies and banks of components).

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 08:06:58 am
content: Your painting skills will definitely improve on a ship if you think you have any spare time. At least you will not be on a never ending round of polishing everything brass and bronze, but you will spend a lot of time with a bucket and mop.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 09:29:43 am
content: I'm training as an "unlimited" Engineering watch officer.We had a 4 week training on a Polsih vessel. They certainly chipped and painted in the fact in we were not officers yetThe officer part means I'll be pointing where the paint needs to be painted.In fact I won't, that's the deck officer's job.Even when doing my rounds I can make a list of stuff to do but the donkey man and the wiper get annoyed when I want to get my hand too dirty.In the same way, I can't ask then to do an injector seal change for me...(As a side note, I'm trying to get in SAF, great company so that I can do my lay off in Cape Town (yeah!) or Durban (moan).)

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 09:36:30 am
content: As an employer, one of the problems - frankly especially with younger AND OLDER employees is way too much time spent screwing around on the Internet and on smartphones. For the younger crowd, that means Facebook, texting and Twitter. For the older crowd, it's often emails to family, shopping online, perusing vacation sites or websites devoted to their hobby (woodworking, knitting, or whatever).An open environment helps keep people honest because it exposes what you are doing to everyone else. I realize that, in theory, employees with sufficient workloads and management that's keeping tabs on work output shouldn't have to expose employees in this way, but it doesn't change the fact that it's true. People are much less prone to be checking eBay 10 times a day to satiate their baseball card collecting hobby when all their corworkers can see what they are doing at any moment.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 09:53:26 am
content: Ive always found this attitude a little weird. There seems this belief that forcing someone to stare at work on a screen for 8 hours is better than doing work and having a little break every now and then.Are unhappy and infantilized employees really more productive?

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 10:46:53 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on June 22, 2014, 09:36:30 amQuite the opposite happens, every time somebody looks at a youtube video a crowd will form causing even more disturbance.Who cares what people do anyway, as long as they get the job done? We use agile/scrum methods, where you have a daily progress report. If you didn't finish your task you better have a good explanation why.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 11:10:32 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on June 22, 2014, 09:36:30 amI've always worked in small companies with open offices, but even in some of those cases it was arranged in such a way people can't be distracted by what 's on each other screen the whole day.Personally I don't like open offices because:- In some places it's a habit of "sharing" a radio - meaning people will have to put up with each other music tastes. That sounds all social fancypants, but for some it will be a productivity killer.- Conversations leak. You will pick up more info shared between colleagues, but that could also means you're once again distracted.- Checking eBay has now suddenly became a sin? I think that's an illusion. If your colleagues have the same habit of checking eBay, they are not going to argue or refrain from doing that.You would have to put a manager in there that micromanages to not do it, and that's like identical to baby-sitting. I think we all know what micro-management does.- Asking questions becomes (too) easy. The next thing you know you're debugging the work of somebody else.It's a similar thing as using 1 Skype account for work & home; if you're not in the office it's way too easy to start talking over Skype and ask stuff that they could have looked up in the documentation. If you have a real question you don't know - email me and I'm willing to check once a day from home & answer them.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 11:32:38 am
content: Quote from: gildasd on June 22, 2014, 09:29:43 amEverybody wants to go to Cape town..........I would ask why the problem with Durban, but then again I work near to the harbour...... I know.Helped enough sailors that got robbed. Except the French, they went around in packs of at least 5, from experience.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 12:03:56 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on June 22, 2014, 11:32:38 amThe contracts we get, I would be 3 to 6 weeks in SA. Would rent a Picanto and go see friends who live in Margate, go hiking in the Drakensberg, take a plane to Joburg etc...I've spent two long holidays in SA, and I love it. In fact, given the chance we would start a company there (not anywhere, there are parts that are meh).But we have 2 major stumbling blocks:- The racist ANC laws prohibiting foreign investment if you don't respect quotas of coloring (how the fuck can a startup hire highly competent "black as defined by the ANC" personnel? They've all been scooped up by the major banks and financial institutions! - There are none left! And even if there were, I can't compete for them. Who do I hire as CFO? My Zimbabwean night watchman? These laws were needed in the 90's but are stupid now - rant over).- The mess in Zimbabwe that ruins the internal security situation.ANNND I think I'm off topic!

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 12:07:19 pm
content: Well, open offices aren't really a new invention.i.cdn.turner.com/v5cache/TCM/cvp/container/mediaroom_embed.swf?context=embed&videoId=354747

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 12:53:08 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on June 21, 2014, 01:24:17 pmLooks at the startups and ex startups around you. They were created by hard working and risk taking people that are just like you and me. Creating and running companies is hard. I know because I did it. Expecting others to create jobs for you and then complaining that they are not for your liking is a monday quarterback play.As for scaling, a single capable insightful and compassionate company founder like you can create jobs for thousands of others, all jobs that match your criteria of 'fair' so yes, it does scale but you need to act instead of expecting other to do it.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 12:57:30 pm
content: Quote from: 8086 on June 22, 2014, 09:53:26 amits old-school sweat shop mentality, nothing more and nothing less.I would not work for an employer that insists he micromanages the engineers. we are 'big boys' and if you can't trust us to balance our time, why the hell did you hire us? I take great offense to 'employers' who think that we must always be watched. it says a lot more about THEM when they pull this kind of crap.what kind of employee do you retain, btw, when you treat them as untrustable chattle? think about it. then again, if you are micromanaging your highly trained employees, you probably won't even understand what I'm saying and you are a lost cause...some managers get it, some do not. those that insist that 'I must watch them or they'll misbehave' are the worst ones in the industry. I've never met a strong engineer who likes this. what you get are those that can't find jobs elsewhere and that means they usually are NOT the best guys around. you reap what you sow. treat the guys with trust and respect and you'll get more loyalty. treat them as 'untrustables' and you'll get the bare minimum from them and no more.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2014, 12:27:10 am
content: QuoteThe true sign of progress there would be if a non-black is elected as president.Otherwise, it remains a tyranny, however "democratically" elected it is: one race over others.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2014, 06:35:21 am
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on June 22, 2014, 10:46:53 amEmployers care what people do, obviously.Daily progress reports are just another method of achieving the same thing. But a daily meeting is incredibly wasteful. I've had jobs where hours of productivity were lost sitting in meetings

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2014, 06:41:32 am
content: Quote from: hans on June 22, 2014, 11:10:32 amThe fact that you've always worked in open offices proves that companies obviously believe it is a better way of managing space and employee time.For those arguing these employers are wrong and short-sighted, then we should see an obvious trend towards increased productivity at companies that have cubes over those with open offices, and a further increased productivity for companies that give everyone offices over those with cube setups.But exactly the opposite is true. So instead we see the truth of the matter - sure, employees will perpetually complain about open offices but nobody cares about the whining because it's a better approach that works.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2014, 11:50:00 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on June 22, 2014, 09:36:30 amIt is obvious that in the 21 century an engineer cannot work without internet. That doesn't mean that full access to it is necessary. There are ways to block certain websites from it, and I actually encourage this as an employee. FB, twitter, youtube or ebay or amazon should be blocked by any sane employer to start with. It is not like an intelligent engineer cannot solve the blocking issue, but it helps if it is clearly stated that you shouldn go there in work time.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2014, 02:18:37 pm
content: Open space offices suck big time. I work for a company like that and the noise floor in 200+ people office was a real pain in the ass. Later we've moved to a new building where we had like 20 people in the the lab.I've left that company some time ago and now I work in something that could be described as hole, den, Troll cave or something similar, but there's only 5 guys in that lab and I like it that way.Thumbs down and eternal hatred to open offices!

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2014, 09:10:18 pm
content: The biggest problem with open plan offices, in particular large or overcrowded ones, is caused by both sociological & psychological issues. Whilst varying by culture the problems are largely based round the lack of a sense of place, security and worth. Hotdesking is fine for irregular visitors but the vast majority of people work better in small allied groups with a little more than just sufficient personal desk space for the task in hand.Just as an example of poor thinking; many call centres have a very high density of desks, after all everything is done by computer and phone headset - what more is needed? Just how often have you called a centre and been almost unable to hear over the background noise? Me - too often!The work environment needs to be reasonable to get the best out of your workforce, the current predilection for creating overcrowded workplaces is reminiscent of Victorian workhouses. Over the top? I don't think so.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2014, 10:07:56 pm
content: -The fact that you've always worked in open offices proves that companies obviously believe it is a better way of managing space and employee time.-agreed. Completely.some people are so tunnel visioned that they could never see out side of their own perspectives. Everything they can't comprehend is wrong or meaningless, ...attempting to communicate with them is an exercise in futility.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2014, 02:40:18 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 23, 2014, 10:07:56 pmYes, but do keep in mind though, that belief may not be fact.Even when there's proven facts to the contrary, an incorrect belief system can still remain deeply entrenched. Particularly when self-interest in doing so is involved. Politics and economics certainly come to mind for such situations.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2014, 02:44:50 am
content: +1 for nanothe fact that companies DO these things does not mean they are optimal for getting work done or employee happiness.they give you a fake reason (they say that younger employees 'prefer' this, when that seems to be very much a lie) and they are not going to correct themselves when you call them on this. HR is good at giving the party line and doubling down on it, no matter what.its like politicians; how can you tell they are lying: their lips are moving. same with HR. (sorry for any HR people here, but you know the drill).

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2014, 02:47:19 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on June 23, 2014, 06:41:32 amthe opposite is true?why should we believe you? you're a 'corporate devil' (by your own description). anyone who lists themselves as 'corporate ANYTHING' is not to be trusted. sorry, but you are clearly on management's side and therefore, your view is not the view of the workers. everything I've seen you write also indicates you are hostile toward employees and their well-being.

author: Legion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2014, 10:53:25 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on June 21, 2014, 07:39:27 pmThis has always bothered me. I've seen a lot of friends get jobs that sound great on paper, but the reality is they're routinely putting in 60 hour work weeks. They don't get paid for that time, it just divides out their salary over more hours. What's the point of a "career" if you're making the same as a server in a restaurant? At least that job doesn't follow you home.I've been lucky enough to be a contractor for my working life so far, and I always turn down offers of full time employment for this reason. Because of that I'm rarely expected to put in more than 37.5 hours per week. I guess management thinks twice when they know the meter keeps running.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2014, 11:19:56 am
content: QuoteA career, by definition, is about what you will do / make in the FUTURE. What you do / make now is far less relevant if it enhances significantly what you do / make in the future.That is the definition of a career.If waitressing in a restaurant now helps land you a CEO job 20 years from now, it is a career too.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2014, 11:36:30 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 23, 2014, 11:50:00 amMany helpful tutorials for LAbview and Sketchup are on Youtube. Needed it often. Fortunately the blocking was easy to go around.