I did it - switched to KiCad - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 02:21:51 am
content: I decided with the recent Autodesking of Eagle, I'd switch to KiCad (plus I needed to do something a tiny bit bigger).Overall I quite like it, once you get your mind wrapped around the Netlist to push from one to the other.Two things I haven't got around to finding the solution are an easy way of jumping from layer to layer (eagle had a toggle segment to other layer which added vias), plus I came across a couple of components that weren't pinned properly (78L05 was one of them)Overall, I'll be staying here, because I like open source... It's a great package

author: awallin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 08:47:21 am
content: Quote from: boffin on March 19, 2017, 02:21:51 amV - adds a via and jumps from top to bottom layer (I've only done 2-layer so far). IIRC it works slightly different on default and OpenGL canvas.pgUp - pgDown switches layers (see layers far right).this may help:https://silica.io/static/downloads/kicad-cheatsheet-landscape.pdf

author: Deridex
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 11:06:32 am
content: It's nice to see someone else trying KiCadFor via its just the shortcut "V". Also you can switch easily between the layers with shortcuts (as example: Inner layer 1 with "F5"). You can find a nice list of the shortcuts in "Preferences -> Hotkeys".About the libraries:The best libraries-package i found so far can be downloaded here:http://smisioto.no-ip.org/elettronica/kicad/kicad-en.htmIt also contains some very nice 3D-Models

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 12:20:11 pm
content: Quote from: awallin on March 19, 2017, 08:47:21 amReally? That's just shocking. The KiCad developers have produced two routing modes / tools with different workflows, but still can't do a decent copy / paste?I'll keep waiting.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 02:08:24 pm
content: Or you could help, if your priorities are different from theirs.

author: Thor-Arne
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 04:17:36 pm
content: The default (obsolete) canvas and OpenGL have a few different tools, but the main functionality is the same.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 06:02:21 pm
content: Quote from: ludzinc on March 19, 2017, 12:20:11 pmjust select your component and hit "C" it will copy it.yes it's not Edit-Copy but it works.and Kicad is open source, so if you want you can implement a nice copy-paste ?

author: ohdsp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 09:42:41 pm
content: Nice one boffin. Personally I enjoy doing schematic and circuit design using KiCad. And just think that all the files you produce are in a nice plain text file rather than locked into some proprierty format you might not be able to access in 5 years time....Really wish more people would switch to KiCad and support it rather than picking on pointless little issues; especially give the dumb issues a lot of high cost commerical software suffer with.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 09:52:48 pm
content: I've been using KiCad for years, it has its quirks but overall I like it a lot and it does the job. It's always good to hear when people switch over, the more people using it, the better it will become.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 10:08:05 pm
content: I have been trying to switch for years.Unfortunately, KiCad was always way to cumbersome.Okish for smaller projects, but with bigger complicated, multi-layer projects it was like using a toy.In the end that simply lack of confidence in difficult projects, especially with some major bugs and crashes.Last few months they finally have been improving major things and I have been using KiCad for smaller professional projects!!I personally only really don't like the keyboard oriented interface. Also don't understand why that can't be changed in the settings.Also finding parts takes to much time. (and is extremely slow/not working at all in the last few betas/nightlies).My hope is that they move their focus fully on the interface and leave all fancy gimmicks (3D stuff and auto routing etc).The last videos updates and presentations looked promising.

author: ohdsp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 10:58:19 pm
content: The issue I personally have is I have wasted days worth of time on packages like Altium Designer chasing issues with the rule settings, or many many other things like the shape of a PCB outline, that have stopped me routing a PCB design, or stopped me generating essential 3D data for a mechanical design team, only to find there is "nothing wrong" and my issue is a know "feature" or the software is just point blank ignoring what I have told it to do. When you consider that the "clumsy" issues with KiCad take up less of my time than trying to get Altium or any other commercial package (Diptrace, Mentor EE and so on) to follow my rules it really makes you wonder how these £££££ packages make their money.I know every package has it issues, I also accept that something like Altium integrates full FPGA design into it's core and can have one of the best interactive DRC/router systems I have used. Personally I have never worked for a company that uses 1 tool to do everything (just too much risk?). I also have not worked in a situation where I could not have solved my issues by using KiCad with all DRC switched off and just using my mental ability/triple checking what I have done to complete a task in a fraction of the time. It's almost like professional engineers (or any professional) should not be trusted to do everything right without the aid of some stupidly expensive tool.The fact that KiCads libraries from schematics to PCB are different, or that I have to export/import netlists between PCBs actually makes my life easier in some situations. When it comes to something like multichannel design I find I can layout the first block in KiCad and then manually copy the other channels in less time than it takes to get Altium to co-operate with me. Given a PCB layout normally limits you in the way you can layout multi-channels (i.e. they end up all different) this is another advantage in my book.I will happily admit I have never routed a 6+ layer PCB with endless differential pairs on board such as a computer motherboard or the latest 1000 pin FPGA chip. I am positive Altiums interactive router would probably save my life in the situation; but I would guess there are many many design engineers/general engineers/hobbyists/contractors/magicians/marathon runners/cleaners who never been in this situation either.Most companies/people that use these more complex tools just don't seem to understand what they are trying to do (or that is my opinion); they just seem to want to spend the money to "look" professional.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2017, 06:22:57 pm
content: Quote from: ohdsp on March 22, 2017, 09:42:41 pmNot to mention even if you switch to a different tool in the future you will have to continue subscribing to something you don't use anymore just to be able to read your files. This is why I'm extremely loathe to subscribe to software. If it's truly a dead end with no export functionality or free reader that can export, then as far as I'm concerned it's a trap and the right question is not only how much it costs but do I want to pay this in perpetuity.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2017, 06:28:21 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 22, 2017, 09:52:48 pmIt has also improved immensely and rapidly. For example I just noticed that hitting 'v' to change the value of a component now pops up the dialog with the cursor in the text box ready to type a new value, and the enter key dismisses the dialog. Neither of these used to happen, but with this small change it's much quicker to go over a bunch of passives and change their values - without having to mouse and clickety click for each one. (Which was extremely tedious and slow.)I also noticed on their english forum that the latest pcbnew/footprint editor (not sure which) in the nightlies have a new caliper tool for measurements that looks extremely handy for verifying footprint spacing...

author: LukeW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2017, 06:49:49 pm
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on March 19, 2017, 06:02:21 pmThis sounds like the classic open-source software development problem where of course it is assumed that all the software users will exclusively be open-source software developers, and no other people exist out there in user space.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2017, 08:21:34 pm
content: Copy/paste exists and you don't have to be a developer to use kicad, eagle or altium designer.

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2017, 08:32:02 pm
content: Quote from: Deridex on March 19, 2017, 11:06:32 amLooks nice. Is there a cloud based parts system, like you have in CircuitMaker (everyone can design parts and upload it to the cloud, and everyone else can use it)?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2017, 09:17:57 pm
content: Quote from: FrankBuss on March 23, 2017, 08:32:02 pm*shudder*Hopefully not.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2017, 10:01:57 pm
content: Quote from: LukeW on March 23, 2017, 06:49:49 pmI'm not a software developer, and I've been using KiCad for years. EDAs in general are not known for being intuitive and user friendly, KiCad is no different there.

author: dimkasta
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 12:24:49 am
content: I AM a developer and I still do not want to develop such stuffThe biggest issue for me, when I tried it again a few months back, was the upside down Y axis. I do a lot of custom mechanical layouts and I really do not need to fight with the software for something like that.And the saddest thing is that the devs said that they do not intend to fix it. To not break backwards compatibility. Something that they could easily overcome by adding a version indicator on the files. But anyway...James sorry but there is no excuse for quirky software. If you know something is not user-friendly, it needs to be fixed. Not ignored.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 07:20:12 am
content: Quote from: FrankBuss on March 23, 2017, 08:32:02 pmthere are lots of kicad footprints and libraries on github, but you have to search and subscribe to them one by one.there is a main library for kicad on github also. in fact, google is your friend, when I search for a part, I google "partid kicad" and often found itotherwise it's not hard to do it yourself.

author: awallin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 11:20:42 am
content: Quote from: FrankBuss on March 23, 2017, 08:32:02 pmThere used to be a site called kicadcloud.com, it seems now only the source code for that site remains:https://github.com/joeferner/kicadcloud.comThis approach will really work well when all parts (scheatic symbols, PCB footprints, 3D models) live in git. The cloud/search engine could then just be a front-end/UI for a bunch of git-repos (hosted on github or wherever you want).

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 01:42:53 pm
content: Quote from: dimkasta on March 24, 2017, 12:24:49 amYES!!!!This is even the problem with more expensive software programs(Altium), but in general it's the biggest issue with most open-source software (and hardware).A lot of times the interface is buggy and sloppy as hell plus you need to be an expert in the field sometimes to even understand what's going on or code stuff even yourself. People simply don't have time (or skills) for that!!In my opinion the main and biggest reason why open-source (unfortunately) is never going to mainstream if developers don't change that.KiCad is also an example of this. I have tried KiCad a few times now over many years.In the first few years it was just absolutely horrible. Just a toy for amateurs (no offence), but absolutely unusable for any type of real professional work.It is finally starting to change, but I would like to see a very different road map, because actually most of the things are working pretty fine.It's just the interface that is still killing.You can complain a lot about Apple, but they nailed this concept pretty good.Why? Well even my mum understand how an iPhone works.A technical solution that people don't wanna use is still useless.Get a decent and sturdy/stable concept working and than make the interface as easy as possible.Than work out things that are necessary (DRC on the fly for example).Any other improvements (total size, speed, fancy gimmicks, auto routers, fancy 3D graphics, schematic simulation) fix them later.If this project was under my management, I already would have kicked some butts.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 02:31:52 pm
content: But it's not just FOSS - just aboutallelectronics CAD software has its own wierd user interface. Schematic/PCB packages in particular seem to take immense pride in paying absolutely no attention whatsoever to the UI standards of the platforms they run on.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 03:47:44 pm
content: That was my point. Find me *one* EDA that has a high quality user interface without various quirks and bugs, if it exists I've never found it. I tried every one I could get my hands on, came to the conclusion that they all suck, and stuck with KiCad because it's free and does everything I need it to do. The bugs and quirks in KiCad are no worse than the bugs and quirks in any other EDA package. You learn to work around them like you do with any other.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 05:25:49 pm
content: Quote from: jancumps on March 23, 2017, 08:21:34 pmI tried it yesterday and it didn't seem to work. I opened a second schematic, selected a portion of it, copied, and tried to paste it into the one I was working one. No go. I don't think it can copy and paste, other than simple text. It's also on the list of things to be included in the upcoming release 5, but it's not yet in the v4 nightlies yet as far as I can tell, and it's plausible v4 will never implement it.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 05:34:49 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on March 24, 2017, 02:31:52 pmAnd I'm very thankful that they don't - if they did they would be too cumbersome to use.Specifically I'm talking about how the standard UI model of MS Windows works this way: Select object, then select operation.Whereas in CAD this works better as it scales to multiple objects more simply: Select operation, then select object

author: tycz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 04:13:22 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on March 24, 2017, 05:34:49 pmHave you ever tried the PCB Elegance schematic editor? It works with the standard Windows model (noun-verb) and it's not cumbersome to use at all. One can select many objects and modify them all in a single action. One can copy and paste bits of schematic between different windows (as expected of any Windows software). It never bothers the user with a 'clarify selection' pop-up.Whatever the reason for Kicad's UI quirkiness, it's not because it's necessary.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 04:30:59 am
content: Quote from: tycz on March 25, 2017, 04:13:22 amHaven't used it, but if it works in the standard way it would require holding the Control key down while clicking on everything you want to change. Then chose the operation to perform.One mistake and you lose all of your selections and have to start again. Personally I find that cumbersome compared to the non-standard methods used by e.g. Eagle and KiCad.The general quirkiness of KiCad I am not arguing about, that is something different IMO. e.g. Lack of copy/paste is just a missing feature.The clarify selection is an interesting one. In 'standard' Windows packages it can be difficult or impossible to select an object which is behind another object or which is overlapping. That is just KiCad's solution to that particular problem. Maybe PCB Elegance has a better solution to selecting objects which are close together/overlapping.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 04:53:41 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on March 25, 2017, 04:30:59 amPebkac?? There is a copy/paste, in Schematic and in PCB and in sch lib editor and probably in the footprint editor too, it's been there for years.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 05:01:36 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on March 25, 2017, 04:53:41 amIs it? I thought copying between schematics was not straightforward - and that was what tycz specifically criticised.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 07:00:19 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on March 25, 2017, 04:53:41 amby copy/paste, I think we all think of something like : open two documents, select one item in a document, do copy, and paste it in the other document. it's been in our computer live for decades, but not in cad softwares and not in kicad.but yes there is some obscure mechanism with clic, and "C" to copy, or "M" to move, or right clic for a bloc, well, not what a simple text editor can do. but hey it's free so we cannot complain, just grab your C compiler and make kicad better !

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 07:49:50 am
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on March 25, 2017, 07:00:19 amNo I was thinking of making multiple copies of one section of a schematic or layout.Documents? It's not a word processor.If you want to copy stuff from another project, I think you just add the relevant file to your project and then you can copy out of it.Also because it is text based you can just copy the appropriate text if you open both in a text editor. You can use a difference tool to find the appropriate entries.I've done it both ways, definitely exists not simple but not a major issue.I accept it would be useful if you could paste across application boundaries so I will look forward to the day.

author: stryker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 08:03:26 am
content: FWIW I keep commonly used building blocks that I like to reuse in their own sheet with easy to remember names. conn.sch contains routinely used external connections, prog.sch has programming headers, UI.sch includes connections and support circuitry for commonly used displays with I2C pullups etc, and power.sch has various power regulators.If you copy them to the folder of your new project and create a sheet using one of those names, KiCad says it's found a file with that name and do I want to use it...boom. Delete what you don't need, and you're away.No where near as clean and neat as copy and paste between projects I grant you, but you can only have one KiCad project open concurrently so that may be more than just a trivial function to add or we'd have it already.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 08:13:52 am
content: Quote from: stryker on March 25, 2017, 08:03:26 amMakes sense, nice tip.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 08:18:10 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on March 25, 2017, 07:49:50 amPebkac inversion syndrome

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 08:50:15 am
content: ?? By definition, if there is no problem at this end there is no Pebkac.Meanwhile, you're the one who can't copy and paste.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 09:40:13 am
content: The first package that lets you draw footprints the same way you sketch in solidworks or fusion will get all my money.

author: tycz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 11:57:48 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on March 25, 2017, 04:30:59 amIn PCB Elegance, to modify a single object it is one more mouse click, but to operate on multiple objects it's far less work for the user. Selections are rectangular and every object the rectangle touches is selected. Selection is appending if the shift key is held down.When multiple object of a different type are selected at once, the context menu contain two menus: Select only and Unselect. Inside each is a list of all different object types. For example, if I wanted to delete all the wires in a particular area of the schematic I would select the area and then go to Select only -> Wires from the context menu. Now only the wires are selected and I just press the delete key.Quote from: hendorog on March 25, 2017, 04:30:59 amWhen the shift key is held and an already selected item is selected again, it gets deselected. This way it's easy to unselect one of two objects close together (especially if zoomed in). If you accidentally place two of the same components on top of each other, the selection tool can't differentiate between the two. In this case you just use the 'Select components by list' feature which will show a dialog containing the list of all components in the sheet. This can controls the selection also so you deselect one of the components here and then move the other away.Quote from: kripton2035 on March 25, 2017, 07:00:19 amYes, it's copy/paste between sheets that's the problem. I've never heard of another schematic entry program that cannot do it. Off the top of my head, I can think of four other open source schematic entry softwares for Windows: BSch3V, PCB Elegance, Qucs, Tinycad. All of them can copy paste between sheets of different instances of the program!If I was to rate all the schematic entry software for Windows that I've used by user friendliness, I would put BSch3V and PCB Elegance tied in first place. After that, I would put a list of commercial packages I've used over the years, then Kicad towards the bottom, tied with LT Spice. Maybe the board layout side of Kicad is shit hot and redeems the poor schematic entry... I don't know, I haven't used it in earnest. I sincerely hope it's the case.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 12:55:15 pm
content: There is a limited copy and paste in KiCad (within a project), but confusingly it doesn't follow normal conventions. To copy from a different project, you have to open the schematic sheet in the project you want to copy _to_. So there are ways, but it is clunky.This a recognized issue, but the lack of a general copy/paste goes back to bad decisions in the early days of KiCad (it was originally a DOS program), which is that the internal data format can not be serialized to the clip board. Work is ongoing to create new formats, but doing that and keeping back compatibility takes time. Arguably it is better to add new, useful features, than perfecting existing features that already mostly work, but people's priorities are all different, so it's impossible to please everyone.KiCad is definitely improving, albeit slowly, and there are some devs pushing to improve the UX, so I see a positive future. Given that the project is mostly created by volunteers, it's really pretty good.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 02:02:15 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on March 24, 2017, 05:34:49 pmYou must have never used a standard vector-based image editing program in Windows/OSX/pre-OSX/Linux/et. al.Rubberband select or shift/control select to select multiple objects and then perform action. You're selecting the objects you want to edit and then telling the program what to do with them. This is an industry (graphics design) standard.Understand that we're talking semantics; both do the same function. It is the difference between saying, "I want to change the scale of these objects," and, "To these objects I want to change the scale." The latter is more obtuse grammatically, but in the context of a GUI, it makes more sense than the former. The reason lies in contextual menus. It doesn't make sense to give the user the option to scale something that doesn't exist (isn't selected). While proper GUI design dictates that the option must always be present in the menu, it must be grayed out unless it can be performed at the time the menu is displayed.However, modern day CAD and EDA programs are based on the structure of ancient (pre-GUI) programs from way back when GUIs didn't exist and workstations were the size of a recliner. GUIs came about and the CAD industry slowly and grudgingly came around to them, but stubbornly refused to change the interface to a more friendly design seen in all other GUI-based vector drawing programs. This is the reason for the black background, for example. It wasn't until the Apple Lisa and Macintosh (1982/83) that inverted video became standard. Modern EDA programs allow the background to be changed, but it still defaults to black.We're using a slightly prettier version of 1970/1980's workstation CAD/EDA programs. It's like putting lipstick on a pig.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 06:45:10 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on March 25, 2017, 02:02:15 pmOf course I have used standard packages. I simply don't like that way of selecting objects. I like packages where I don't need to do the Shift/Ctrl selection dance.I know how it works, I just think it sucks and that the other way works better.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 06:51:04 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on March 25, 2017, 08:50:15 amIt is clear that there is a copy/paste issue between files, it has been posted by multiple people above.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 08:24:43 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on March 24, 2017, 05:34:49 pmI guess this is extremely subjective and your idea of 'what is better'.For me it's much much much worse. Because it mains that you always need to go for that action OR you will need to switch your action.Besides, it also means that you keep on hitting short-key all the freaking time.Also the focus on your objects are jumping all over the place and it's even worse if you decided to do a different action instead.You're just using your keyboard the whole time like you're almost typing.It drives me insaneThe point I really don't understand, why is there simply not a setting, where people can choose this?It's open source anyway, absolutely not that hard to implement something like this.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 10:27:42 pm
content: Quote from: boffin on March 19, 2017, 02:21:51 amGood work. I like it too.Sure it has some quirks. It's a large, powerful, complex piece of software that's maintained for the fun of it by about 5 people. That's amazing!boffin, if you subscribe to the dev mailing list you'll see most of the issues that annoy people are also considered issues by the dev team. Usually they are actively being worked on, or postponed until behind the scenes enhancements that allow more advanced behaviours are completed.But don't go there looking for support. There is a very active and helpful users mailing list too. Some of the development team hang out with the users there; you can get some great support, but also, your opinion about upcoming changes actually counts.In a thread like this the nay sayers always need to tell the OP what an idiot he is for choosing X or doing Y. It bugs me. Bloody X-o-phobes. Why do they even care what you use?Stick with KiCad for a while, mate, it's learning time well spent. It's a very capable bit of gear.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 03:07:19 am
content: Quote from: b_force on March 25, 2017, 08:24:43 pmProbably right. But just because a method is 'Industry Standard' doesn't mean it is the best approach either.Quote from: b_force on March 25, 2017, 08:24:43 pmIt is my utopia using the keyboard all of the time like typing. One of the annoyances of KiCad for me is having to use the mouse so much for things which I could use the keyboard for. And I don't mean the 'MS Windows way' of keyboard use - that is not pleasant or efficient for me.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 01:06:53 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on March 26, 2017, 03:07:19 amI guess everyone has his own utopiaI only don't follow this.You have to draw lines and place the components with a mouse anyway.The same thing goes for 90% of every other software program.So I always end up binding loads of shortcut keys to my mouse (X-Mouse Button Control is EXTREMELY nice for that).Why not than use a mouse only interface? (or as close as possible)In fact, the only time I use my keyboard, is to type messages (on forums), fill in measures or formulas.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 01:26:42 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on March 26, 2017, 01:06:53 pmNot quiet true. I'll give you an example.Let's say I have finshed the schematic and I want to start with the pcb layout.On the monitor on the left there's the schematic and on the monitor on the right there's the (board) layout.The layout consists of an empty rectangle (the pcb) and aside there are 500 components that needs to be placed.Let's say I have zoomed into a part of the pcb where I am laying out some components connected to eachother in the schematic.Let's say I want to take R233 from the heap and place it onto the board area where I'm actually zoomed into.I just type: "move r233" and that component is imediately attached to the mouse cursor and I can place it immediately withoutthe need to:1.) zoom out2.) pan to the area where all the not yet placed components are3.) zoom in and try to find R233 between all the others4.) grab it /select it5.) zoom out6.) pan7.) zoom in8.) place itRepeat this for all the other components...So, using the keyboard, you save a lot of time and you avoid rsi.And you don't need to repeat typing the whole command again for the next resistor.Just hit the up-arrow, backspace and enter"4" to grab R234...Quote from: b_force on March 26, 2017, 01:06:53 pmI use the keyboard as much as the mouse when creating schematics or layingout a board.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 05:04:16 pm
content: I often draw lines and place components using the keyboard, it's far more precise. When drawing a footprint I'll normally place the lines I need haphazardly using the mouse and then edit the position and start/end points of each line with the keyboard so they're all placed precisely where I want them and line up exactly. A mouse is great for exploring an unfamiliar program and quickly selecting an object but it's tedious and imprecise to do the fine detailed work with a mouse.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 05:11:04 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on March 26, 2017, 01:06:53 pmAs per Karels post, because a good keyboard interface can be very fast and accurate (once it is learned).

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 07:53:14 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on March 26, 2017, 05:11:04 pmYes, but the point is, that this is for everyone different (that's why I said everyone has a different utopia)Most professional CAD and 3D programs I know of, are all mouse by default and keyboard shortcuts can be programed in such a way that in the end you can do most things by keyboard if that's your fancy.Most companies I worked with most people just use the mouse with some basic shortcut-keys.(another annoying part about KiCad is that they don't use default shortcut key combinations)The whole point of this, is that it can be programmed to anyone's like.That is what is missing right now.Don't see how accuracy should be an argument.If you want to be accurate, just use absolute values filled in.I don't get the whole 'fast' and 'efficient' issue anyway.On a decent board design that will maybe safe you 5% at MOST from the total hours spent.If people think that's the way to safe time and money, they have a lot to learn......

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 08:23:05 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on March 26, 2017, 07:53:14 pmNot sure what you mean? I accepted your point and agreed with it earlier. Then I simply answered your question - from my perspective naturally.Quote from: b_force on March 26, 2017, 07:53:14 pmCool, lets just call it personal preference then.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 03:47:06 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on March 26, 2017, 07:53:14 pmGiven the amount of time spent on a typical layout, 5% represents a very significant savings.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 04:14:48 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 27, 2017, 03:47:06 pmI said at the very most.So not a general number at all!!!In the projects I have done, managed and seen, it's more like 1 or 2% (or less)You also have to put it into perspective. I rather run a team that is happy working with some kind of software (even if it's not the most efficient), than I team that's constantly complaining or is having trouble following the workflow.(Reason why we skipped Altium a few times for example).Besides, people should spend more time and effort improving working on a clever way.These numbers are so extremely minor.I don't see how on earth someone can actually say that 5% is significant??Maybe statistics and physics work different in other types of the world?

author: Deridex
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 04:55:23 pm
content: I think the Hotkeys in KiCad are not bad at all.I just took a few days to get used to it. And now i even catch myself trying to use em in Eagle at workSome people just use a "cheatsheet" at the start. But after a short time you probaly won't need it any longer.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 05:59:26 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 27, 2017, 03:47:06 pmMore importantly, workflow problems forces an engineer to focus on how to drive the tool rather than what they want to do. It's a distraction that causes loss of train of thought. Nobody cares about 5% of time, because in the end the old saying that we can't type faster than we can think applies, but breaking focus and causing loss of attention is very disruptive.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 06:10:21 pm
content: Well it's all a matter of personal preference, I like having the option of using the mouse, but generally I get in the groove and use the keyboard for the majority of my interaction, and reaching for the mouse and hunting for the option I want in the GUI is what breaks my attention and interrupts my workflow. I grew up in DOS though and tend to use the command line frequently, I find it faster and more efficient, I recognize that not everyone does and that's fine but it works for me.Similarly I've seen guys trying to program CPLD and FPGAs using the graphical schematic entry tool, sure it makes it easy for a beginner to get their feet wet and create very simple designs but beyond that it's tedious and only holds you back, taking the time to learn VHDL or Verilog is hugely more efficient even though at the beginning it is a steep learning curve that takes a lot of time and effort to learn but the investment pays off.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 04:47:14 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on March 25, 2017, 07:49:50 amMaking multiple copies of one section of a layout is best done by putting that section in its own hierarchical sheet.Making multiple copies of a section of layout is more complicated. Think of Altium's "Rooms." It's a feature Kicad needs, the developers know that, and I suppose the real issue is how to design the application to support this.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 06:20:36 am
content: Quote from: Deridex on March 27, 2017, 04:55:23 pmThe one that I don't like is that it'sW - the schematic editor to draw a wireX - the layout editor to draw a tracewhy the heck are they not the same?

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 02:02:39 pm
content: I don't get why to hit a shortut key in the first place.Why not automatic drawing on every node?

author: Deridex
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2017, 04:39:54 am
content: Quote from: boffin on March 30, 2017, 06:20:36 amI can't answer on that one. But it's true that some points of the user interface might be questionable.On the other hand: I still think it's possible to get used to it. And i don't think that you will find a EDA-Tool without some questionable points in the user interface.

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2017, 09:07:01 am
content: All right, I've just finished my first board in KiCad. To my surprise it was easier than I expected. Some processes are rather unusual (libraries, vias stitching, polygon priorities) but possible. KiCad crashed two times when playing with polygons. This is as many as my Altium does per day. I am surprised how good the interactive router is.Good night Eagle....

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2017, 08:50:08 pm
content: That's a bit worrying that KiCAD is crashing. I've occasionally left it running for months at a time as I tinkered with various back-burner layouts a little here and there. I don't recall ever once having it crash but the version I'm using is a few years old now.I wonder how that Eagle subscription thing is working out for them? I only personally know one guy still using Eagle and he's sticking with whatever version he had.

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2017, 08:50:09 am
content: I would be also interested on some inside info about Eagle. Folks around switched to KiCad too and my formal department did not obtain a new eagle license either. I would say that a number of Kicad tutorials online and stable releases brought it closer to normal engineers.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2017, 09:13:26 am
content: I'm using 4.0.6, and one of my projects has been open in the background for at-least 2 months without crashing, (Cannot speak for 4.0.7),The other nicity is that you can have multiple versions installed on a machine without conflict, the forward and backward compatibility has for the most part meant opening in 4.0.6 or the old 2103 stable version just works.

author: hiperco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 01:11:44 am
content: I just recently started using KiCAD. Overall I really like it. The library management is clumsy/quirky, but overall its a great package. (I had debated about learning Eagle, but now that its subscription based that was a non-starter for me).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 07:06:05 am
content: Yeah KiCAD's library management is not my favorite, but every EDA I tried had some aspect that was clunky and annoying.

author: ElektroQuark
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 08:52:52 am
content: It's being improved. Version 5 will be a big step forward.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2018, 09:28:01 pm
content: Im a dip trace User, tried Kicad Mac version recently , very buggy , odd user interface. Once Diptrace has push and shove its streets ahead in terms of usability

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2018, 03:48:33 am
content: I suspect someone who had been using KiCAD would say the same about DipTrace. All EDAs have buggy, quirky user interfaces, it's just a matter of which one you're used to.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2018, 07:08:17 am
content: I was a diptrace user, tried kicad last year, and adopted it ...yes it's not very polished user interface, but as a mac user, a native app is prefered over an app in a virtual machine...don't stop at first sight of kicad. try to make a board from start to pcb with it.seems the next version will add a ton of features in the user interface part, will see it.I only make 2-3 pcb a year, the other are made on protoboards, but kicad as completely free and mac native app has my vote.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2018, 07:38:19 am
content: Hopefully they don't screw it up. I already know how to use KiCAD well, if they change it too much I'll have to learn it over again.

author: awallin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2018, 08:01:18 am
content: Just noticed that Digikey provides KiCad schematic symbols and pcb footprints for a lot of parts.Some deal where you need to login and get 15 parts per month free, and probably a license (that I didn't read..) on what you can or cannot do with the parts.This seems to be in addition to the libraries Digikey now provides on github (?)

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2018, 09:57:39 am
content: Quote from: awallin on February 09, 2018, 08:01:18 amThat's a collaboration with UltraLibrarian, you can get the same 15 parts/month free if you go direct to their website. Or if you prefer pay $800/pa for unlimited access. Their licensing is somewhat opaque, but you should assume that their data is for private or internal company use only and should not be re-distributed.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2018, 12:39:30 pm
content: Quotewell I have Eagle, Diptrace and Kicad installedI actually set myself a task of doing the same board in all three , productivity in Kicad was way lower, as for native apps, its ,largely irrelevant to the user once the apps runs well on the Mac and Diptrace under Wine does so .Yes DIptrace runs in Wine with all the issues that can bring, but in fairness it runs very wellSecondly Kicad on the Mac seems to have issue with graphics and interactions with existing libraries, DIptrace installs and runs perfectly so does Eagle, Kicad 4.0 , I had immediate problems, couldnt close windows, no cross hairs , switched to Cairo and certain features worked, back to OpenGL , certain other features didnt workWhat is clear is the pads assignment process, in Kicad is all over the place, whereas DIptrace ( I only use it about 4 times a year) , is far better.Personally Id Like Kicad to succeed , if only to give pro-hobbyists access to good PCB design , but in my view Kicad needs tidying up , and a improved /simplified workflow , rather then adding new features all the time

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2018, 01:19:05 pm
content: Quote from: MadScientist on February 09, 2018, 12:39:30 pmI'd have to agree with that. KiCad is one of those typical apps that grows over time, but without updating the workflow it becomes unwieldy. There is an insane amount of button clicking just to do the same repetitive tasks. If you use it a lot, it becomes instinctive, but I still trip over things. And there are loads of pitfalls for occasional or new users, we see them all the time on the forum.Unfortunately, the devs are regular users, who know the shortcuts inside out, so are loathe to change the UI. I'm not sure that is likely to change, since Wayne Stambaugh has been exposed to user feedback, and I think he know what the gripes are. Recently in response to a user poll he said "KiCad development is not a popularity contest", which effectively shut down that discussion.KiCad is quite stuck trying to revise basic internal architecture which was put in place 20 years ago, and trying to maintain backward compatibility, and add new features. It would be a huge effort to move away from wxWidgets for example.There are two new FOSS projects that might be worth taking a look at, LibrePCB and Horizon. They have taken an approach more oriented to the user (since KiCad doesn't).

author: gertux
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 08:43:14 am
content: Last week at fosdem Wayne gave a short presentation about the upcoming 5.0 release.https://video.fosdem.org/2018/K.4.201/cad_kicad_v5.mp4

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 11:43:23 am
content: Nice.Kudos to DigiKey indeed!

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 02:12:22 pm
content: Quote from: dimkasta on March 24, 2017, 12:24:49 amThen fix it yourself or shut up about it and wait like the rest of us. Remember most, if not all of the developers for open source projects are voluntary efforts and users for the software they write.Sometimes, actually very often, the quirks are in the user.Besides I have only just started using Kicad as my first EDA and I find it highly efficient for 90% of the things I have done. I keep learning new keyboard short cuts that make it even faster.Some things have rough edges, but when compared with the alternatives that cost hundreds of pounds, I'm not complaining.

author: bandgap
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 04:49:02 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on March 12, 2018, 02:12:22 pmTo be perfectly honest, the packages that costs $100s or $1000s also have rough edges and areas where usability could be improved. While KiCad has limitations in some areas, I have yet to see a PCB design suite that doesn't.I'm mainly using DipTrace at the moment (I switch up a lot!), but KiCad's value is infinitely better than anything out there and version 5 is going to improve that even further!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 05:14:39 pm
content: When I first started out, I tried every EDA I could get my hands on to play with, ranging from free up to one that cost several thousand dollars to buy, laid out roughly the same board in all of them, came to the conclusion that they all suck. They all have rough edges, quirky UIs, it's just a fact of life when dealing with niche market software generally used by trained professionals.

author: Deridex
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2018, 03:22:37 pm
content: Quote from: bandgap on March 12, 2018, 04:49:02 pm+1So far i worked with Eagle, KiCad, Circuitmaker and Altium. And all of em took me a while to get used to em.

author: ggchab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 11:20:02 am
content: I am planning to move from Eagle to KiCad. Already followed some tutorials on Youtube and played a bit with the software. I am very enthusiast and I don't think this is going to be a difficult moveWith version 5, it's even possible to import Eagle projects. Not perfect but impressiveAnd making the necessary corrections in the schematics, libraries and PCB is a good way to learn ! Of course, as a hobbyist, I am not taking big risks ...

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 11:50:57 am
content: Does anyone know if 5 adds support for grouping components with layouts on the PCB?

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 09:54:17 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on March 28, 2018, 11:50:57 amYou mean like Altium's "rooms," for channelized designs where you lay out one room at a time, and that layout is replicated as often as needed?If so, then no.It's been an outstanding feature request forever, and it's more difficult to implement well than I think most people realize.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 06:20:15 am
content: Even just CTRL+G and CTRL+SHIFT+G to group and ungroup components. Then you could right click a component and have "SELECT GROUP" as an option. It would select the previously grouped components and all of the local nets, ie. nets which both ends within the grouped components.Duplicative groups would be nice, but just groups of components as above would be a start.When you layout the PSU portion of your circuit, as an example, drag it in, wire it up, but then later decide to move it. It can be a faff trying to select it and it's local nets to move it.On duplicative groups... I have to get my sleeves rolled up an get into Python for an up coming project. I have multiple prototype projects which will combine into one large one. I am not looking forward to laying out all those groups again. The only difficulty I see is annotations. I have only recently (too late) learned that you shouldn't really start your annotations at 1 on every circuit. It prevents reuse of the layouts later. If each of your sub projects and subsheets uses different prefix on the annotation you can copy and paste them in the SCH files etc.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 09:20:36 pm
content: A notion of subcircuits would be a grand feature! Something to copy and paste an entire subcircuit, including schematics, components, PCB layout, and footprints from one design to another.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 07:51:31 am
content: Agreed, even if they allowed hierarchical sheets to have layouts saved with them. Hierarchical layouts.Out of interest I discovered a time saving tip in KiCad I thought I'd share.If you have a component or group of components which is already routed and you want to move, you probably won't be able to save all it's nets and you will leave a mess of unconnected traces lying around. Just break those traces by deleting one portion of them, then select "Edit->Clean up traces and vias". This will delete all the unconnected left overs very quickly. It's not perfect and has a habbit of leaving trace snippets under pads.

author: VEGETA
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2018, 10:21:39 am
content: I would like for KiCAD to have a feature to output to LTSpice for example and take from it too. This will greatly help.Anyway, will version 5 include new GUI? will it be the new "ribbon" thing. It is nice so I wish it happens.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2018, 02:36:26 pm
content: http://mithatkonar.com/wiki/doku.php/kicad/kicad_spice_quick_guide

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2018, 04:41:56 am
content: Quote from: VEGETA on April 22, 2018, 10:21:39 amIt looks like KiCAD simulation can* export Spice netlist okbut there is currently no GUI pathway to* import external netlist into simulator (tho they must do that in the background from SCH -> Sim)* export plot RAW file. An exported RAW format, would load into LTSpice viewer.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2018, 06:44:01 am
content: Quote from: PCB.Wiz on April 25, 2018, 04:41:56 amVEGETA’s idea is good.It would seem that doing a spice simulation earlier than later in the overall process in an effort to try to make sure a circuit works electrically/logically before laying it out schematically or physically would be a sensible sequence. If so, KICAD should be able to import from spice to use the spice work as a starting point - rather than laying everything out nicely in KICAD and then running a simulation to see if the laid out circuit operates. A simulation might not always be needed or wanted but it should be allowed/enabled to be a starting or early step when it is needed or wanted.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2018, 05:30:13 pm
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on February 09, 2018, 07:08:17 amI’m a brand new user to EDA so my comments are based on very limited experience. KICAD and DipTrace both seem to have lots of admiring users but it seems almost ironic that the one that runs natively on a Mac feels like a program that evolved from DOS and the one that feels more like a Mac runs natively on a PC.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2018, 05:40:53 pm
content: Quote from: MadScientist on February 08, 2018, 09:28:01 pmWhat is “push and shove”? Thx

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2018, 08:24:57 pm
content: Push and shove is a feature where when routing a trace, if there is no gap between traces, but there is space for those traces to be shifted a little allowing that gap, the program shifts them for you to route through.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2018, 09:01:28 pm
content: Quote from: Rerouter on April 26, 2018, 08:24:57 pmFirst I just hit the thanks button, but I couldn't resist saying this seems to be something a guy named "Rerouter" would know a lot about.

author: ggchab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2018, 08:18:13 am
content: Nightly build of version 5 now includes the libraries.Close to the final release ?

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2018, 04:10:16 pm
content: I thought they were going make libraries a choice in the installer?

author: ElektroQuark
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 11, 2018, 07:01:58 pm
content: You can select them to be installed or not, but they are included in the installer files.They are an extra 500MB before installation.

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2018, 08:38:12 pm
content: I guess the previous issue was people doing nightly builds didn't want to keep downloading them every time they updated but I guess the 'release' version will be different. Makes sense I guess.

author: apurvdate
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2018, 05:42:34 am
content: all that size is because of the 3d shapes files.. libraries & footprint files hardly take 50-60 MB..i seriously want them to package 3d shape files in a separate installer..

author: VEGETA
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2018, 06:54:57 am
content: I finished making a schematic for my 30V\2A dummy load project. Now I want to create the PCB, I have these questions:1- How can I define board shape? especially odd shaped boards like importing autocad drawing or some free software output like autocad.2- Is there any comprehensive library which contains footprints?3- I want to increase copper under some power mosfets or resistors? is that possible and how?4- How about adding thermal vias to it?5- If I wanna penalize, is there an automated thing to do it? I would need routing and v-groove at the same time.6- How about 3d view? do I need extra stuff? how to access it?7- I also want to drill some holes... how is it done?thanks

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2018, 07:45:48 am
content: Quote from: VEGETA on June 05, 2018, 06:54:57 amExport as a DXF file in the R12 format, then import to the edge cuts layerQuoteThe built in library will cover about 85% of things, specific sized transformers, and a few brand specific footprints may not be thereQuoteDraw a "filled zone" in the shape you desire, set it to the net name of the pad you want it to add to, then select solid or thermal connection depending on how you want it (thermal is for easier soldering)Quotedraw trace from the center of the pad, turn off the snapping, and place vias where you want them. You may also want to turn off auto delete tracks if it fights you.5-Have yet to do it, so not to sureQuoteTop of the screen, veiw / 3D veiwer, for the built in libraries the models should be there, anything you make would either need one assigned or addedQuoteIf you want holes or shapes in your PCB, draw graphical objects on the "edge cuts" layer, e.g. a circle would be a mounting hole.If you want single or an array of plated holes, they are available in the footprints library. this can be accessed by the 4th icon on the right hand toolbar, looks like a 6 pin IC.

author: Gibson486
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 01:29:51 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on March 28, 2018, 09:54:17 pmI outsourced a pcb design that had multiple same sub circuits. The guy just made a python script to do what rooms does. I am not sure why it is hard for KiCad to do it. The guy said it just took him one day to make the script.But yeah, rooms is a great feature.

author: MitjaN
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2018, 02:03:54 pm
content: There are a couple of scripts supporting this functionality.And I will shamelessly plug my own:https://github.com/MitjaNemec/Kicad_action_plugins#replicate-layout