I bought the very Last Symmetricom SA.22C in the shop! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 04:58:41 pm
content: @wa4whlDid you haveanyluck getting hold of information on your Symmetricom SA.22C ? Im hoping you clicked the notification button when you made this post just over nine years ago!I recently bought a later (2006) 15MHz square wave output version after downloading data sheets and user guides which suggested that it might be possible to program it to produce a 10MHz sine wave via the customer interface using the serial port connectivity feature. At the very least, I could always phase lock one of my many 10MHz sine output OXCO spares to the 15MHz square wave output if the worst came to the worst (excluding of course, the even worse case of receiving a non functioning unit (the very last one available viaanyon line shopping sites).As it happens, it does appear to be a fully functional 15 MHz unit as advertised and, after making up an 18 pin dual row 2 to 2.54 mm pitch adaptor and a test break out board plus connecting up an FTD-232 usb to serial adaptor, was finally able to access the serial interface and experiment with the customer run commands two days after taking delivery.I was able to change the frequency to 10MHz using the o command) (but still square wave) and fine tune the initial +5.5mHz offset out using the f command. Unfortunately, these settings revert to defaults when next powered up and the 't' save tuning settings command is not clearly explained by the example given in the user guide. I'm hoping you managed to at least figure out the various user commands and how to interpret the 'health' data (w command). Basically, I need an "Idiot's Guide to control and configuration of an SA22C".I'm planning on disciplining to the 1PPS of an M8T gps receiver module so, apart from the need to reset it back to 10MHz using a nano3 mcu on every power up, I might not need to worry any further about reprogramming it. I'm going to attach one of my spare M8Ts and experiment with this built in GPSDRO feature. Finally figured out why my attempt to reply was being aborted by eevblog's cackamaimee posting system - it was the now smaller 4000kB limit error with its carefully hidden error message which was the cause of my grief

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 08:17:09 pm
content: I see my attached images raised some interest so it seems the subject of DIY rubidium atomic frequency standards isn't totally dead (just rather moribund).I did finally get round to sending my reply to our newbie friend, wa4whl but, with only 2 posts to his credit in over nine years, I doubt I'll ever get a reply.I only jumped on that post out of desperation since I couldn't track down other discussions on the SA22C anywhere on the 'net, just that one reference. I ticked the notification button just in case before closing that tab to post more on my 'new toy' here in this now renamed topic thread.I've been busy testing it out against my home brewed gpsdo (basically a revamp of the G3RUH design with an M8T replacing the Jupiter T, phase locking the ocxo at 100KHz with a 1200 seconds TC filter) and was finally persuaded to reorganise the bench to accommodate my LPR101 based RFS and give my SDS2502X+ something useful to do for its 46 second boot up time and its 54W consumption (versus the 16 seconds/22W of the SDS1202X-E that usually suffices as a graphic TIC).The reason for the reorganisation to show both rubidium oscillators against the GPS reference simultaneously being the reappearance of a curious symptom of instability I'd seen with the LPRO a few weeks ago (the impetus for blowing another 290 quid in total on acquiring the SA22C).Initially I'd assumed the rapid 10 to 20 ns transient backward phase shifts to be a very peculiar intermittent fault being developed by my now 25+ yo lpro but I am now starting to suspect the GPS system may be suffering fall out from the war in Ukraine due to electronic countermeasures by either the Russians or possibly even by the Americans as part of a strategy to wrong foot the Russians who may be using GPS as a sanity check/backup to their GLONAS systemsYesterday I started seeing similar symptoms with the SA22C which had me dialling in offset corrections via its serial interface to try and keep it syntonised to the GPS reference which raised my suspicions once more about the stability of the GPS system as a high(ish) precision reference source. That was the moment I decided to make room for my LPRO RFS in order to confirm or lay my suspicions to rest. Of course, this 'weirdness' only occurs once every few days or so and the setup now seems to back to its normal state of precision (ionospheric disturbances aside).Unfortunately, the SA22C is only at the bench testing stage and subject to the variations of ambient temperature (just like the LPRO did when I was first checking it out almost 2 years ago now) which makes the task of pinning down 'the guilty party' just a little more tricky than I like. Still, I only need to witness another such 'event' to determine which, between the LPRO RFS and the GPS reference. is the true cause of these phase jumps.In the meantime, I'm trying to make sense of the information in the Symmetricom / Microsemi user guides and data sheet specifications. Of more immediate interest to me, is how to interpret the health data which is simply listed in hexadecimal form as per the w command output shown below:-r>wAData:SCont: 6012SerNum: A12PwrHrs: 5F18PwrTicks: 1282841LHHrs: 5ECFLHTicks: 10F5542RHHrs: 5ECFRHTicks: 1063C65dMP17: 4159F035.dMP5: 3D4E9CE6.dHtrVolt: 4172E210.PLmp: 3F93465F.PRes: 3FC3C440.dLVthermC: B8520000.dRVthermC: B99CD000.dLVolt: 3F8F52C5.dMVoutC: C9D122BB.dTempLo: 41000000.dTempHi: 42B10000.dVoltLo: 4156B1A8.dVoltHi: 4173473E.iFpgaCtl: 204CdCurTemp: 425A0000.dLVoutC: 3E0508D5.dRVoutC: 3DF08B1B.dMV2demAvg: 3F0C7C1A.Does anyone know how to interpret this data. Unless the PwrHrs: (5F18) counter has wrapped around a 16 bit limit, it looks like it's clocked up just a tad over101424344 hours, a mere 2.7771 years worth of run time, which if true, is just 27% of its design life.The i command displays this:r>iSA22C by Symmetricom, Inc., Copyright 2006SA22 Version 6.02C of 7/2006; Loader Version 3Mode CN41 Flag 0004Unit serial code is 1211EC3234-h, current tuning state is 6Crystal: 3938700hz, ACMOS: E4E1C0.00000000hz, Sine: 989680.00000000hzCtl Reg: 004C, Res temp off: BFC53F7D., Lamp temp off: BFF9418E.FC: enabled, Srvc: lowThe final line just indicates the sense of the service output pin when it asserts a service required warning. The service pin reads 4.9 volts so no warning of imminent failure within the next few months at least. Worthy of note is the firmware version which predates the later version 6.05C which offers customer access to the 1PPS configuration, along with being able to enable sine wave output.The user guide suggested that the early version would normally default to 10MHz sine wave and enable the PPS feature by default, the implication being that the end user wouldn't be able to tune the PPS control algorithm with the earlier firmware version. To test this, I added an SMA-F socket to my breakout board and connected an M8T to it. Sad to say, there was absolutely no indication that the PPS input option was enabled so it seems I'm out of luck regarding a quick solution to creating a GPSDRO by simply adding nothing more than a suitable GPS receiver module into the mix.I wasn't too surprised at this after reading this note in the user guide:================================================================================Setting the 1PPS SynchronizationThe following are the steps for setting 1PPS signal synchronization (SA.22c with 1PPS enabled customerversion of firmware at revision 6.05c or higher installed.)================================================================================I did a search to try and track down a firmware update but came up completely dry. I guess such an update has now long since become yet another item of "Unobtainium", so it's looking like I'll just have to create a 10MHz sine wave output GPSDRO the old fashioned way.I rather think I'm on my own in this endeavour but if anyone knows anything useful about these SA22C units, I'd really appreciate the help.I've attached four photos of the current bench setup.

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 09:46:02 pm
content: Notes regarding the photos attached to the previous post (plus a set of ten screenshots taken earlier this evening)The SDS2000X+ series conveniently display the date and time in the bottom right hand corner of their displays. The time is UTC and running about 1 1/2 minutes behind.The first image shows the SA22C with the heatsink plate temporarily removed in the left hand side of the foreground with the LPRO based RFS to its right (that big 12 by 10 by 8 inch WxDxH aluminium enclosure sized to accommodate a 25mm polystyrene foam lining and an LPRO wrapped in another 25mm thick polystyrene foam overcoat covering all sides other than the fan cooled heat spreader bolted to its base plate).The oled display is showing (top to bottom respectively) ambient temperature, base plate temperature and barometric pressure. The lockable ten turn counter drives a ten turn 5K helipot used to trim the frequency. The LED to the LHS of the oled display is a bi-colour red/green LED which shows red for powered up awaiting atomic lock and green to indicate lock. Power is courtesy of a 19v laptop charging brick. Its 10MHz sine wave output exits via an SMA-F connector mounted on the rear panel which I have connected to CH3 on the SDS2504X+ in the background. CH1 is the GPSDO reference from which the timebase is triggered whilst CH2 is the SA22C's square wave output. I have infinite persistence enabled to record the relative shift between the GPS reference (the source of the 5ns pk-pk wobbles on the LPRO trace). The larger drift of the SA22C obliges me to clear the persistence every half hour or so to keep track of its behaviour otherwise I'd only need to clear the persistence once every 6 to 24 hours or so for the LPRO on its ownThe second image includes the SDM3065X displaying the LPRO's lamp voltage. The second image is a more encompassing view to include the cheap 'n' cheerful Owon XDM1041 displaying the GPSDO's EFC voltage. The final image is just a slightly different angle to reduce the glare on the SDS's display.I've attached ten screen shots taken over a 2 hour and 20 minute time period to demonstrate the difference between a temperature stabilised rubidium oscillator (the LPRO) and one attached to a heatsink simply to prevent it overheating (typical hobbyist usage case going by the various youtube videos I've watched on the subject of setting up a home lab with an atomic frequency standard).Enjoy!P.S. I almost forgot: I ran some temperature excursion tests on the SA22C using a small USB powered desk fan to chill it down and I was able to ascertain that it has a negative frequency tempco for what that's worth. My particular LPRO for example, has a positive frequency tempco but a sample of 19, according to the user guide showed a scattering of both positive and negative tempcos so that information is not a hard fact regarding the tempco of other SA22Cs, more a point of mild interest.

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2022, 04:17:40 pm
content: Since there'ssomeinterest being shown in the SA22C, I thought I'd pop the lid off and take a few teardown photos for those either too shy to ask or daring enough to break the warranty sticker on theirs.It's not as if it's still in warranty and it does appear to be functioning ok after clocking up some 24,344 hours of service life out of a design life of better than 88,000 hours. It's obviously survived the 'infant mortality' phase of the MTBF bathtub curve and a long way off hitting the old age mortality end of said curve. IOW, it's just nicely maturedThat's assuming of course, that I've correctly interpreted the PwrHrs: data -fingers crossed that I have.I've attached the 1st 5 images of the teardown sequence and there'll be several more posts to follow with the later high detail images.

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2022, 04:24:46 pm
content: More images

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2022, 04:26:13 pm
content: Yet more photos

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2022, 04:27:31 pm
content: Another two pictures!

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2022, 04:28:45 pm
content: And, yet another two!

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2022, 04:30:47 pm
content: Almost there!

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2022, 04:31:47 pm
content: And, finally, the last twoThese, along with the 2nd of the previous posting's attachments, are more detailed views of my breakout board, adapting the 2mm pitch socket to a 2.54mm pitch perf-board.

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2022, 08:08:35 pm
content: I got fed up seeing the SA22C spoiling the SDO screenshot sequences yesterday so decided to remove its presence (I'd needed to disconnect it anyway in order to take those teardown pictures) and create a sequence with only the LPRO and GPS traces in view.I've attached a 5 hour 11 minute sequence captured this afternoon, just ten images.For the benefit of anyone who hasn't already seen my other contributions to rubidium oscillator related threads regarding my current temperature stabilised and barometrically compensated RFS project, here's a list of links which provide more detail on the contents of that BFO 12 by 10 by 8 inch aluminium enclosure housing the LPRO 101.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/gnss-rb-(chinese)/msg4173502/#msg4173502https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/i-just-bought-an-efratom-100318/msg4176703/#msg4176703https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-235-rubidium-frequency-standard/msg3652885/#msg3652885https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/efratom-lpro-repair-attempt/msg4277602/#msg4277602

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2023, 07:09:10 pm
content: It's been some ten months since I made my last contribution to this "echo chamber" but since I've just received a request via a PM asking for help in establishing a serial link to the SA.22C, I thought it best to post what documentation I'd managed to obtain at that time rather than try tracking down the original links to send in a reply PM.I'd assumed that anyone interested enough to have bought one of these units would already have tracked down all such documentation (and more). However, since it took some search effort to gather these files and there's now a possibility that some may no longer be available, I've picked three of the most relevant files I have to hand.

author: romal76
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2023, 06:18:56 am
content: Thanks for information.I was able to connect to my SA22c by FTDI interface.It is possible to change from 15MHz to 10MHz by typingo3<cr>and save to memory for next startup byt5987717<cr>it may not showing typing but after that you will have message that changes savedAlsough I was able to change 1PPS output and the sine output through Lady Heather from this topichttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/lady-heather-v6-beta-for-windows-exe/msg1434005/#msg1434005

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2023, 04:24:05 pm
content: Thank you very much, romal76.Is yours running a later firmware version than mine?SA22C by Symmetricom, Inc., Copyright 2006SA22 Version 6.02C of 7/2006; Loader Version 3Mode CN41 Flag 0004I was able to set it to 10MHz square wave output only but the 't' command didn't seem to work. I'd assumed the 5987717 was just an example parameter rather than some sort of key code required to validate the save command and hadn't wanted to risk saving an irreversible change.I'll set it back up again to test those commands and see if I can make the 10MHz square option 'stick' this time. Adding an LPF to convert it to a sine wave is a trivial exercise but even if I have to work with the default 15MHz square wave output, all is not lost since I can simply use a divide by three circuit as shown in the attached pdf, followed by an NB3N502 clock multiplier to get round that issue.Alternatively, since I'll be using an Arduino nano to regulate the base plate temperature and compensate for barometric pressure changes as per the current LPRO 101 based RFS project, I can use it to reprogram the output to 10MHz each time it's powered up.Also, thanks for the link to texaspyro's LadyHeather topic thread. I noticed my user name in the 'thank you' list to his OP so I've obviously read some of that thread way back then. I'll reaquaint myself with the rest of the thread in the hope that the latest version of LH will reveal more of the hidden features of my particular 15MHz SA.22C.Right now, after spending the past 5 months upgrading my Desktop PC, I'm only now resuming further development on the LPRO based RFS which has been on hold for lack of time and workbench space during what turned out to be a rather more protracted PC upgrading exercise than I'd anticipated.I'll post a report on any further progress with the SA.22C in this thread after I've had a chance to retest it with your suggestions and tried the latest version of LH.

author: romal76
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2023, 04:41:32 pm
content: Quote from: Johnny B Good on May 08, 2023, 04:24:05 pmI have the same 6.02C

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2023, 07:20:22 pm
content: Quote from: romal76 on May 08, 2023, 04:41:32 pmThanks! That's encouraging. It looks like I may be able to reprogram it after all.However, reading the user guide suggests the possibility that despite having identical firmware versions, we may still have different degrees of success due to individual customer feature requests. I'll do some tests later on and compare our findings.

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2023, 11:00:47 pm
content: I reran my original tests and can happily report that using the t command with 5987717 successfully saved the 10MHz setting which does away with the divide by three and doubler circuit, leaving only the matter of adding an LPF to generate a 10MHz sine wave.My understanding from reading the manuals is that the sinewave option is a factory default option chosen by the customer. I've not had any success in enabling this so from what you said about using LH to enable the sine wave (and PPS) options, maybe I'll be able to eliminate the LPF and perhaps even turn it into a gpsdro simply by connecting one of my spare NEO M8T modules to it (the PPS is currently disabled). Could you perhaps elaborate on how you used LH to do this?

author: romal76
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 02:01:12 pm
content: From LH you can set to use SA22c by/rxSAthen set COM port, for example 3/3after that you can view more information about your SA22cif you see that than you can for example switch ACMOS off or set SINE 40% by pressingpyou will see another menu at the bottompressing s and 40 you can set SINE 40%pressing a and 0 you can disable ACMOSand so on

author: mmemBD
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 04:37:47 pm
content: hello, can you upload datasheet or describe scheme of your own adapter board? i have the sa.22c, but failed to find any information about official adapter test boardi'd really appreciate it

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 11:21:22 pm
content: I've already posted all the documentation I could gather together. The user/designer's guides mention a test adapter kit which is now "Unobtanium".When it came to making my own adapter, I looked through my collection of "Scrapped parts that might be of use someday". For the pcb I'd removed from an external 2.5 inch IDE HDD usb housing a decade or so earlier, its time to 'be of use' had finally arrived.The pin spacing on these drives is the required 2mm pitch making the pcb mounted socket the ideal carrier to push the 20mm long pins (extracted from a length or two of single row header strips I'd acquired some 35 years ago) through an 18 hole section I'd cut off the 44pin socket after trimming away the no longer needed solder tags.Making sure I had the pins protruding the required amount to fully engage the SA.22C's socket, I soldered the pins to the remains of the socket contacts to secure them in place and then carefully splayed them out to match the 2.54mm pitch on the perf board I was using.The obvious alternative to all that McGuivering is to get a PCB made up to directly take a 2mm pitch 18 pin dual row header but I was in a hurry to test the seller's description (especially the bit about it being in full working order) and didn't want to invest in a pcb with only the minimal amount of functionality required at this stage.It would have cost no more to make a complete adapter with the dc-dc converters required to power it from a 19v laptop charging brick and the sma sockets and header connectors for led and serial interface and so on, so I was rather loathe to double up my costs in the most unlikely event that I were to decide to have an adapter board made up for this one off 'special'.Anyway, that's two options for you to consider. Either McGuiver it like I did or else purchase a 2mm pitch 18 pin dual row header (or three) and get a PCB made up. One remaining alternative (which I didn't fancy much) is to push solid core wires into the SA.22C's socket and croc clip onto them for power and output and serial interface and leds. Ok for a quick 'n' dirty test bench lash up for basic testing purposes but not a serious contender for a more permanent setup.

author: mmemBD
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 08:07:22 am
content: Thank you very much, i will try to make adapter by your instructions!

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 05:31:30 pm
content: FYI, back in 2015 I saw some anonymous circuit boards on ebay that I recognized as the Adapter Test Boards that are discussed in the Symmetricom 'Designer's Reference & User Guide'. I picked up a couple to go with the two SA-22C units that I had. I've attached the auction pictures. If it would help, I can take higher resolution pictures.Ed

author: Xtremexp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 04:49:14 pm
content: Quote from: edpalmer42 on August 03, 2023, 05:31:30 pmAre you selling it? I am looking for one, can you provide me details on cost, location etc.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 05:58:29 pm
content: Quote from: Xtremexp on August 27, 2023, 04:49:14 pmNo, I'm not selling it. I thought that high resolution pictures might be of value to those of you who are trying to reverse-engineer it.Ed

author: Name00
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2024, 03:36:32 am
content: Hello, long time lurker on the forum but first time poster.I recent purchased one of these after getting everything up and wired. It runs but failing to get a Rubidium Lock. I do get an output but it swings wildly. I've checked the input voltage it is 15V and checked the ground to ensure it's properly grounded, and follwoed that was itneh troubleshooting section and all was fine, I also doubled check the temperature and humidity and they are within "normal"Does any one have any suggestions on what to check if I were to take it a part?

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2024, 04:58:02 am
content: Did you also verify the 5v rail (pin 6)?

author: Name00
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2024, 11:54:39 am
content: Yes, the 5V rail is good, all voltages look fine measure at point of connections (the pins), I've also verified the GPS pulse and tracked it's output. I'm able to talk to the interfaces using Lady Heather which I presume also means the unit is fully functional. Lady heather reports the same thing I'm seeing no Rubidium Lock, the Lock pin also stays high, the manual indicates a +/- 21ppm cyclying for lock without verifying the exact ppm sweep, I see it cycle back and forth on a scope.I'm waiting for confirmation from the seller it's okay to take it all apart.

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2024, 03:13:16 pm
content: If the warranty sticker is still intact, I'd be more inclined to request a return with a full refund on the basis of it being "Not fit for purpose" by reason of it being DoA.I'm assuming from the fact you've asked the seller for permission to open it up that it had been described as a fully functioning item in the seller's description. The seller will most likely demand some video evidence demonstrating the issue.BTW, if you're going to video the scope display and voltage readings, place the camera on a tripod or other suitable support. This will maximise the benefit of processing the video into a more compact format using a video conversion/ compression app (I use Handbrake for this).Although the SA.22C is a modernised and more compact version of the venerable LPRO - 101 (same single board smd construction - no pesky electrolytics to spoil your day), unlike the LPRO, no one AFAIAA, has produced / published a comprehensive fault finding guide that could help you repair the more common and fixable faults. Unless you're prepared to do some reverse engineering, the best you can hope for is visually spotting a dry joint or a damaged component (a cracked mlcc, maybe?).If the seller gives you permission to open it up, then by all means do so. You never know, contrary to (my) expectations, you just might spot a suspicious looking component / bad solder joint or a broken wire which might allow you to effect a repair. Also, of course, you may be able to detect the glow of the rubidium vapour lamp which will tell you that the lamp itself is still intact.If no glow is visible that can also indicate a failure of the excitation oscillator circuit which energises the lamp. If you haven't already done so, it'll be worth downloading the latest LPRO repair guide simply to get some useful hints on how to do some basic tests (temperatures, frequency emissions from the lamp exciter oscillator, voltages and so on).Anyway, that's the best I can offer for now. However, it might be worth posting the results of the health data (w command) for comparison against my own health data (reply #1).

author: Name00
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2024, 01:45:17 pm
content: I've opened the unit it all looks clean. Nothing obvious. I think the dMP17 value is low looking at yours it seems to translate to around 13.x volts, mine is measuring around 11.x. According to the life, it's been up for 92.6K hours, ~10.5 yearsMine:dMP17: 41306B00.Yours:dMP17: 4159F035.Going to try to trace the power circuit, maybe a bad cap or resistor somewhere. I see a slight glow from the lamp. "w" output below, removed the serial number.AData:SCont: 6012SerNum: XXXXPwrHrs: 169DCPwrTicks: 117E242LHHrs: 169DBLHTicks: 15576AERHHrs: 169DBRHTicks: 14CCDDDdMP17: 41306B00.dMP5: 3D526F32.dHtrVolt: 413FD842.PLmp: 3F749718.PRes: 3F9D564D.dLVthermC: 3C00C400.dRVthermC: B8B8C000.dLVolt: 3B729566.dMVoutC: C931DBB3.dTempLo: 41440000.dTempHi: 42AF0000.dVoltLo: 41389C7C.dVoltHi: 4177ACFA.iFpgaCtl: 2023dCurTemp: 42600000.dLVoutC: 3E070F74.dRVoutC: 3DECB6DA.dMV2demAvg: BA298800.[EDIT 1] I removed the reply and updated this post instead. I upped the voltage from a bench power supply to 16v and got a lock. I was going to initially replace the LM2941CS, however, after tracing the power circuit some more under a microscope and trying to figure out the various parts, I noticed small pits on the solider around Z501, R108, R57, and R28, figuring maybe it was a dry solder. Ended up apply using a heat gun, and soldering iron, cleaned up most of the solder that may have been marginal. It's now running solid on 15v with the dMP17 under lady heather at 13.5v[EDIT 2] I've run this on a survey fixed location of a LEA-5T (one of those Huawei modules), seems to produce a be far more stable 1 PPS signal when compared to a TAU1201 GNSS module. Although the unit doesn't seem to be producing any PPS out signal. Am I missing something?

author: cncjerry
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2024, 07:56:23 pm
content: I did a quick scan, and I didn't see anybody mention x72. I have two of these. The second one I just bought, it was in a trutime module. Both mine have quite a few hours on them but they work great. I've never seen version 6 of the software. I also can't remember if the Acmos output is based on the RB disciplined circuitry? They reference it to a the 60Mhz crystal though some have other crystals, 30Mhz is also known to be available.I like these units but they need a heatsink and that takes away from the size. LH will set the tuning word in both of the versions I have (4.24 and 4.34). You need version 6 of texaspyro's LH. Then it is under the '&' command. You feed it 1pps from somewhere, possibly a well surveyed GPSDO, and it calculates the tuning word and sets it. Though I have then written it many times after setting it, if it reboots, it is back to factory. Also, you can set the service pin phase to 0 or 1, that will keep you from thinking it is broken. The more recent one I have has limits on the control word for output.Mark (Texaspyro) and I worked together on some of the heatsink mechanics. I drilled the heatsinks. He sent me an adapter board, you can get others on eBay now, or design your own and JLCpcb will run them off and have 5 of them to you in a week. The dimensions are in the manual. Note that you need specific loading on the sine output as spec'ed in the manual. Like 150pf and 50r within 4inches of the output.I run one all the time and tune it twice a year against my symmetricom GPSDO. Phase noise is poor but stability is good. The 2nd I plan to discipline with a GPSDO.

author: ohmjke
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 14, 2024, 01:43:48 am
content: Hi everyone.QuoteJohnny B Good, were you able to use 1PPS Synchronization with unit version 6.02c?Maybe there is some command to enable it in versions earlier than 6.05C?Or some way to update firmware?

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 06:13:22 am
content: roma176 had kindly provided instructions on how to configure it using LH v6 in reply #17 last July by which time I'd just shelved the project in order to concentrate on the LPRO 101 based RFS project. So the answer is "Not just yet.".Thanks for attaching the LH screenshot BTW. That should give some clue as to what to expect when I upgrade LH from v 5.0 (I just checked the version installed in my winXP VM).I think I'm just about done with the LPRO project, essentially an issue of achieving a stable base plate temperature within +/- 5mK over an ambient temperature range of 14 to 27 deg C.I'd recently started experimenting with PID libraries as a possible alternative to my custom in-line coding efforts but finding the documentation as clear as mud on exactly how you're meant to pass a complex set of tuning parameters or even how to link my set point, base plate temperature and fan control variables to the PID.As a result I've resorted back to my custom code, based on feed forward with a sort of PID fine tuning of the feed forward control. I made a further refinement which seems to have extended the upper limits of the control range. Even though the fan is powerful enough to hold the base plate to its 36.05 deg set point at an ambient of 32 deg, getting it to perform with a reasonable level of accuracy and stability beyond a maximum of 29 deg has proven impossible to achieve thus far so I might just have to simply live with this shortcoming and take consolation in the fact that I'd managed to get it to cope with close to freezing temperatures (4 deg C) during previous low temperature test runs.As for getting a PID library function to work any better than my own controlling algorithm, I suspect it may not even come close (but I'm willing to be proved wrong).I'm planning to do another low temperature test Friday night / Saturday morning to make sure my high temperature improvement hasn't compromised its low temperature performance. If it passes the low temperature test, I'll leave it in my garage/workshop to keep the hobby room work bench uncluttered enough to allow me to further experiment with the SA.22C and LH. I might have some news to report in a few days time (or not).Whatever the result, I'll be putting that aside in order to complete my MK III ZED 9 T based GPSDO project which I'd also set aside some 5 or 6 months ago. Basically, my problem is that I've got two too many projects than I can cope with right now.

author: ohmjke
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 17, 2024, 06:22:54 am
content: Oh, I missed "and so on".Thought these are the only options:QuoteWill check next time I return to this project.Thanks.One more question - does anyone have information where this oscillators (Sa.22c or LPRO-101, for example) actually used?According to info from seller I bought mine unit it was extracted from some GSM(?) base station. But no more detailed info.I thinking maybe it is possible to find entire base station on sale and it will be cheaper...Mine Sa.22c cost was ~$450

author: testpoint1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2024, 05:15:46 pm
content: Quote from: ohmjke on March 17, 2024, 06:22:54 ammost of the Rb module just comes from CDMA base station, but SA.22C and X72 are not, since the strange interface of SA.22C, the price of SA.22C is cheap, I am design a mechanical adapter for it, in orfer to use the SA.22C for replace X72 and LPRO, and I will design 2 PCB for the SA.22C.

author: lugaw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2024, 04:53:11 am
content: Is it possible to change the factory reference crystal on the unit?I am planning to buy a unit that doesn't output 10Mhz it only ouput 9.8304MHz from factory.

author: Name00
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2024, 06:49:03 am
content: Quote from: ohmjke on March 17, 2024, 06:22:54 amIf you get ones with 60K+ hours on them, they come from GPRS-EDGE base stations.Quote from: lugaw on April 03, 2024, 04:53:11 amI don't believe it's possible without changing the firmware, If you have the unit and TTL serial hooked up first power up the unit and you should see the crystals listed there to confirm,SA22C by Symmetricom, Inc., Copyright 2006SA22 Version 6.02C of 7/2006; Loader Version 3Mode CN41 Flag 0000 okUnit serial code is XXXXXXXXXX-h, current tuning state is 6Crystal: 60000000hz, ACMOS: 10000000.0hz, Sine: 10000000.0hzCtl Reg: 0000, Res temp off: -1.6261, Lamp temp off: -2.0584FC: enabled, Srvc: lowQuote from: quince on March 21, 2024, 05:47:52 pmNo, I got mine from a e-recycler that gets them sporadically and removes them from base stations. I tried to convince him to give me the cables and heat sink mount, he wanted way too much for those, so I ended up building an adapter from 1.0mm headers, solder and shrink wrap, version 2 involved getting 1.0mm hole pitch breadboard, ethernet cable, and DC-DC 15v to 5v, and soldering to secure the ethernet cable as my trace, primitive but usable.Quote from: testpoint1 on March 21, 2024, 05:15:46 pmI also noticed ebay now has pre-made boards from the "famous" BG7TBL (for those from familiar with his counters and GPSDO). I've ordered one and will test.

author: Name00
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2024, 07:34:14 am
content: I decided to make it a separate post.Some updates, I still have not been able to get my unit to output 1 pps, I ended using a picdiv to do this for sync from GPS pps then driven from the 10MHz from the SA.22C.Second I've gotten the unit partially tuned to the GPS. it's an involved process but will outline for anyone interested, I now have 3 unit totally in-sync with a small deviation but drift between them at about 7ns per 18 hours based on my scope (1 unit tuned below to the GPS and the other tuned to the pps of the first unit using picdiv).Steps used:1) Get LH 6.14, a GPS that outputs a PPS, a terminal software (putty?) for com access and of course a ttl - serial and interface working for the unit.2) Use a very stable GPS module (I've used the "Huawei" GPS modules both the ublox LEA-8T and the trimble -- the trimble one is far superior as it actually does it's survey automatically and synthesizes the pps! while you need to manually tune the ublox and it's PPS will vary to the GPS signal quality)3) start up your terminal software, set the control register to 0 (it enables everything) and exit4) Make sure the SA.22C has been running for at least 6 hours5) Start lady heather, set the com port and issue /rxsa (/rxsb if confirm a non 60Mhz crystal??).6) issue "&" then "a" in lady heather, and give it a period of 12 hours (43200)7) let it run and complete note what it's set the DDS to, if you have any value at e-13 leave it there's no point it's already as good as it gets based on it's spec sheet..if you have e-12 or worst (ie anything at e-11, e-10, or e-9), take the first set of numbers so let's say -5.1234e-10. take that and do -5.1234 x 10^(11-##) so in this example -51.2349) start up the terminal software10) set the dds to 0 (f then 0)11) set the dds to the value from 7 (from example f then -51.234)12) save (t and 5987717)13) exit terminal software, repeat 5 to 12, until your last two reading are e-12 or you get an e-13, and if you never get to two e-12 values in a row then your GPS pps has way too much variability.Notes:-- if you have a scope you can check it or if you have a GPSDO, you can also compare it to that to verify you've moved to the right direction and stability before doing step 12.-- from what I can tell the t does save the f value on save, once saved the f value seems to be reset to 0 again, or I lucked out in my limited testing between 3 units split in the method above.-- j command in the terminal software clearly shows it is tracking the pps (you can remove the source and see the value change).Update 2: Sorry I had the wrong base unit it should be e-11, I've updated this in the write up to also cleaned up the language a bit.

author: zrq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2024, 09:25:17 pm
content: Beware of this ebay seller: Comp-Electronics 4U Online. I got a SA.22c from them in "Used" condition, but it apparently never lock. Let's see how he/she responds to my message.-> Update: so the seller agreed to send me an extra one for a little cost: $40. And this new one turns out to be locking fine. So they apparently can not test them and it's just bad luck.

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 10:03:48 pm
content: Quote from: zrq on April 10, 2024, 09:25:17 pmNow that you have a working SA.22C, you can afford to take a closer look at the innards of the first unit with a view to effecting a repair as per Name00's earlier posting here.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/last-symmetricom-sa-22c-in-the-shop!-(attempted-reply-to-a-9-yo-post!)/msg5353562/#msg5353562Bugger! copying and pasting a forum topic reply link keeps failingis going on?Anyway, Name00's earlier posting is reply #28 in this topic thread.With luck, you just might end up with a working 'spare'.

author: zrq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2024, 05:59:30 pm
content: After I opened it and take out the PCB, it became obvious that the problem is a thin film filter that is normally glued to the rubidium lamp assembly fall from its place. I glued it back with high temperature epoxy and now it locks fine.

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2024, 03:03:42 am
content: Quote from: zrq on May 02, 2024, 05:59:30 pmI wasn't sure what this "thin film filter" was that you were referring to so I took a look at my photos to figure out what a "thin film filter" would look like.My best guess was that it was the mm or so thick circular disk of (quartz?) glass I've circled in the attached image acting as a closed window to retain the heat within the lamp enclosure. AFAICR, the lamp is maintained at a temperature of75oops! 100 deg C so the high temperature epoxy glue you've used should be ok.I've not had any reason to think that it had any other purpose than to minimise heat loss from the lamp so I guess the reason why it couldn't achieve atomic lock in this case was simply due to the lamp failing to reach its full operational temperature. Or more likely heat pollution into the microwave cavity from the lamp housing, as edpalmer42 kindly reminded me that the 70 and 100 degree temperatures are the other way round.Thanks for that feedback which adds yet another easy to fix stock fault to the growing list of failure modes to consider by anyone attempting to repair a faulty SA.22C.

author: zrq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2024, 08:30:49 am
content: Yes that's the thing. It's not a simple piece of glass but having a thin film coating on it to likely filter out some emission.I'm using proper H70E-2 epoxy rated to 200degC continous operation so I would not worry about the working temperature.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2024, 09:08:34 am
content: It might be thermal glass that blocks heat. AFAIK, the Rb lamp typically runs over 100C while the resonance cell (under the metal shield) runs at ~70C. The thermal glass keeps the heat in the lamp and away from the cell.Ed

author: wd1i
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 02:23:18 am
content: I had the same problem with saving the frequency change on the SA.22C. Turns out that it is not intuitive but easy. when you enter the "t" save command enter "5987717<CR> (you will not see the numbers as you type them) and the system will reply "Tuning Data Saved".Turning off the SA22C and restarting will confirm the change.ACMOS frequencies are1=30 Mhz2=15 Mhz3=10 Mhz etc. Plug in more numbers and see the different output freqs. As long as you do not use the 5987717 command, the change will not be permanent.

author: Smile2016
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 01:12:20 am
content: Quote from: edpalmer42 on August 03, 2023, 05:31:30 pmHello , I'm another happy owner of an SA-22C and have decided to build my own adapter board for it.Do you still have those reference boards handy? I would like to reverse engineer them for simplicity and get some PCBs made .Would you mind taking a few clearer pictures of them to help with component identification? With those, I could probably recreate a schematic and layout to share with the community.I assume there is nothing on the bottom side of the PCB, likely just a plain ground. Ideally, I need the markings on U1, U2, and U3, which are probably simple inverters/buffers like the NC7SZ04. I'm curious about their speed. A better view of L1 through L5 would also be helpful, as they likely form a 5th-order Chebyshev or Butterworth filter for the sine wave output. This would allow me to calculate the rest for 10MHz.Cheers!

author: Smile2016
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 01:23:25 am
content: Quote from: romal76 on July 13, 2023, 02:01:12 pmI can confirm that commands all work on SA.22c FW6.02. Unfortunately there is no Sinewave output and mine only accepts SINE 40 or SINE 0 . The ACMOS out can only be switched on or off. What is the purpose of SINE 40 % any ideea?

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 02:44:30 am
content: Quote from: Smile2016 on July 10, 2024, 01:12:20 amHere you go! You are correct - there are no components or traces on the bottom of the board - just the leads for the through-hole components.Getting the IC numbers to show up properly on the photo just wasn't going to happen.U1, U2, and U3 are marked Z04G. Pin 1 is the white dot on the silkscreen.U4 is an LMS202E1M - Dual RS-232 transceiverU5 is an LM2940CS-5.0 P+ - +5V Regulator.The green tape was used to cover up the mirror-finish on some of the surfaces to keep them from blowing out the camera's brightness adjustment.Ed

author: ch_scr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 10:25:52 am
content: Z04 are likely these:nc7sz04"TinyLogic UHS Inverter"

author: Smile2016
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 08:40:21 am
content: Great thanks... also identified inductors, still believe it is a LPF somewhere around 10.0MHz to recompose that squarewave to sinusoidal.. Inductors:L1=2.7 μHL2=1.8 μHL3=2.2 μHL4=830 nH [L4&L5] in series to get to this valueInverters are indeed what was expected, nothing fancy. Inputs are all in parallel probably driven from the same ACMOS sqrw.not clear from the layout, if outputs are also all linked together after the 75 Ohm resistors for more drive capability or they go on separate ways to separate outputs. probably 2nd option based on 75 Ohm value

author: Smile2016
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2024, 12:14:09 am
content: I only want to minimize harmonics, particularly the 2nd harmonic. Standard capacitor values should suffice for this purpose. I've utilized specifications from real part numbers for the inductors. I expect a 'clean' sine wave of approximately 500mV peak-to-peak. Tuning everything slightly over 10.0MHz might help ..?? Any recommendations for high-Q wirewound inductors?

author: Smile2016
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2024, 12:17:49 am
content: Quote from: ch_scr on July 10, 2024, 10:25:52 amthat's the one + datecode

author: Smile2016
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2024, 04:37:10 pm
content: Quote from: lugaw on April 03, 2024, 04:53:11 amHow to check reference crystal frequency? my unit shows 60.00MHz at startup and 39.38MHz if I use "i" command .SA22C by Symmetricom, Inc., Copyright 2006SA22 Version 6.01C of 7/2006; Loader Version 3Mode CN01 Flag 0000 okUnit serial code is xxxxx-h, current tuning state is 6Crystal: 60000000hz, ACMOS: 10000000.0hz, Sine: 10000000.0hz...r>and with command i:r>iSA22C by Symmetricom, Inc., Copyright 2006SA22 Version 6.01C of 7/2006; Loader Version 3Mode CN01 Flag 0004Unit serial code is xxxx-h, current tuning state is 6Crystal: 3938700hz, ACMOS: 989680.00000000hz, Sine:989680.00000000hz...opened one unit , cannot directly access a physical crystal that could be exchanged anyways...

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 03:56:57 pm
content: Quote from: Smile2016 on August 26, 2024, 04:37:10 pmSeeing this going unanswered for the past three and a half weeks has bugged me enough to answer your post.Did you ever figure out that the crystal is in a TO5 case (see attached image in reply #40)?As far as the i command reply is concerned, I'd be inclined to treat it as a total nonsense (see reply #1 where I posted my own i command results as per the quote below)The i command displays this:r>iSA22C by Symmetricom, Inc., Copyright 2006SA22 Version 6.02C of 7/2006; Loader Version 3Mode CN41 Flag 0004Unit serial code is 1211EC3234-h, current tuning state is 6Crystal: 3938700hz, ACMOS: E4E1C0.00000000hz, Sine: 989680.00000000hzCtl Reg: 004C, Res temp off: BFC53F7D., Lamp temp off: BFF9418E.FC: enabled, Srvc: lowThe ACMOS frequency in my case, as you can observe, appears to be a hexadecimal equivalent of 989680 but it is not. Using a scientific calculator to convert it to decimal gave me a figure of 15,000,000 Hz (15Mhz - the initial frequency setting that had been in force at that time - no doubt, having since used the o command to set it to 10MHz, I'd expect to see it display a new hexadecimal value).Well, bugger me sideways! The hexadecimal representation for 10,000,000Hz just happens to be 0x989680Hz!!!!Hmm, I wonder... Yep! the crystal frequency is also represented in hexadecimal. 0x3938700 and translates to 60,000,000.IMHO, whoever decided to use a hexadecimal representation in the i command report without that all important 0x prefix is a cnut (damn my dyslexia)Now that I've solved the mystery of those weird (nonsensical) frequencies shown by the i command versus the power on startup message, that does rather beg the question as to whether you measured the actual output frequency or compared it against a 10MHz gpsdo reference or simply assumed it was meant to output that particular CDMA reference frequency (the 9.8304MHz frequency appears in Wikipedia's list of crystal oscillator frequencies)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_oscillator_frequenciesHowever, there is one remaining mystery in my own i command results, namely the out of place hex representation of 10MHz for the Sine frequency when the ACMOS is correctly showing the hex representation of the 15MHz output frequency it had been set to as it was originally received.Now, if anyone has any pearls of wisdom to offer, please feel free to chip in.

author: Smile2016
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 01:25:56 pm
content: Quote from: Johnny B Good on September 20, 2024, 03:56:57 pmYes, I identified the TO5, though I wasn’t expecting this package/case. Looking at the components around the crystal, it seems like a simple VCO where designer didn’t put much effort into making it very stable or performant. I’ll probably sacrifice one of my units for the sake of science and remove the crystal to check if it’s one of those SC cut types, which are a bit more thermally stable. It’s most probably possible to change the crystal without a software change, as long as we don’t care about the ‘i’ command response or boot-up. All possible frequencies stated in the datasheet can be synthesized from crystals in a relative small range of 58.9824 to 65.0000 MHz using integer division factors. Extracting the image from flash and ROM would be interesting too. It seems the way numbers were represented was not the primary concern.My units were initially set to 15.000MHz. I adjusted them to 10.000MHz and ran them for approximately 10 days with a PPS from GPSDO. Now, they are reasonably well-adjusted. More updates to follow…

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 12:29:11 am
content: The apparent lack of stability with that vcxo circuit is by design. It has to respond very quickly to the tuning control signal from the6.8GHz microwave frequency produced by the ground-state hyperfine transistion of the 87Rb atom in the vapor cell inside of the microwave cavity in order to remain in frequency lock.The crystal isn't ovenised but merely has to warm up sufficiently to the internal ambient temperature to stabilise its frequency sufficiently enough for the FLL to achieve and maintain lock. I too had the impression of insufficient stability when I was trying to trace a mysterious and intermittent 1 or 2 ns phase modulation that had suddenly made its appearance earlier in the year in my LPRO-101.I thought it might have been a dry joint or fractured trace around the crystal so started poking it with a plastic pen, discovering just how touchy it was. I could force it to transiently shift phase by 20 to 30ns by applying steady pressure to the top of the crystal during which time it would drift back onto its original phase until I slowly removed the pressure whereupon it then shifted the other way before settling back. If I kept a steady pressure and then suddenly released it. I could get it to fall off its perch and lose lock for the time time it would take to regain a fresh lock (I could also obtain the same result by a sudden application of pressure).Convinced there was a dry joint, I desoldered it from the board and cleaned the old solder from the pins and the holes before resoldering it back in place. Testing revealed that hadn't made any difference to this weird issue so I reassembled it and ordered a pack of ten HCU49 20MHz crystals from eBay. However, I didn't get round to replacing the crystal on account the mysterious phase modulation effect had quietly slunk off to another hidden dimension just a few days later.Considering this experience over the next few weeks, I finally concluded that this 'touchyness' was an inevitable phenomena created by design and the abnormal physical interference of probing fingers. Yes, you can excite modest transient phase shifts by gentle to hard thumping of the LPRO-101's case. In this regard, this characteristic hadn't altered in all the time it had been in my care.This conclusion is essentially a hypothesis on my part but if, as I suspect, you'd had a similar experience when probing around the crystal, that would help validate this hypothesis.

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 01:47:37 pm
content: Quote from: Johnny B Good on September 25, 2024, 12:29:11 amUpdate on the above hypothesis.It turns out that these commercial rubidium oscillators are all extremely sensitive to vibration which proved to be the real culprit in my case. Although I still haven't tested the SA.22C for vibration sensitivity, I'd be very impressed if it didn't show any such sensitivity.I described the nature of the problem and its 'cure' in this posting :-https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/gpsdo-phase-between-pps-and-clock/msg5787299/#msg5787299It did help somewhat to have acquired a couple more LPRO-101 examples to verify that this was a problem common to LPRO-101s (including every other type using the same physics package detection approach to disciplining a quartz crystal oscillator).BTW, if anyone is interested in watching timelapse movies of 12 hour 'scope screen recordings sped up by a factor of 180 and 120 times (and haven't already seen the above topic thread's recent posts) they start at this point in the link below:-https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/gpsdo-phase-between-pps-and-clock/msg5768749/#msg5768749

author: Name00
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2025, 02:41:39 am
content: @Johnny B GoodGood find on the instability, it also explains why after mounting a fan directly to the SA22c I started to noticed far more phase modulation (?). I ended up putting a PC heat sink top and bottom of it which keep sit about 15C above room temperature.I find with an extremely stable 1 PPS, the SA22c still drifts (-- decay?) over the course of a month, it still around 350 ns to 1us with the PICDIV, I'm not sure I can do any better with them being in sync with such small drifts. I've since traded 1 of the SA22c I had for a X99, a Datum StarLoc2, and a BH3SAP., should have a small collection of references soon.. :-)

author: indeterminate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2025, 09:18:37 am
content: Use command f on the serial interface.6.1.4 in the user_guidemine seems to remember the change even after a power cyclei trimmed it to a GPSDO and its pretty good now.

author: Name00
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2025, 03:33:12 am
content: For those interested I managed to partially extract the firmware on these units, I'm working on a full extraction. With the partial extraction, I managed to find "5987717" in another location and get into admin and factory model as indicated in the manual. I'm really interested in if anyone has newer firmware for these units that Symmetricom may have shipped out.In the run mode "r>", enter "x" then "5987717" + enter.. There's an in field upgrade using the "b" command from admin mode..Nothing else seems interesting otherwise.I thought there was nothing interesting..Factory Mode -> Admin mode, "a" -> "y" -> "y"- "Soft Reset" actually displays "Hard Reset" message, if you say yes to hard reset it "sets" everything to factory default include the DSS/frequency adjustment to true zero! Meaning the first adjustment on the frequency is absolute and not relatively to the previous saved value.- If you use this make sure you let it "warm" up again for at least 6 hours before trying to discipline it again.Updated: To include info for "Hard Reset"

author: indeterminate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2025, 08:26:22 am
content: same version hearA22C by Symmetricom, Inc., Copyright 2006SA22 Version 6.02C of 7/2006; Loader Version 3Mode CN41 Flag 0004Unit serial code is 1011EC2068-h, current tuning state is 6

author: Smile2016
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 01:43:17 pm
content: Quote from: Name00 on April 02, 2025, 03:33:12 amI haven't seen a more recent FW 6.02C , I have it on four units. Were you able to flash back a new image you extracted?

author: Name00
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 09:26:37 pm
content: Quote from: Smile2016 on April 03, 2025, 01:43:17 pmI haven't tried. I also haven't been able to fully extract the firmware off the flash chip, What I'd normally do is confirm a full extraction, burn a new chip, then work with the new one. It much a much longer process and I have a number of personal projects on the go, so this is a much less a priority unless I managed to find a firmware that has the taming algorithm built in, which is why I was hunting around the firmware image to see maybe it's "hidden". :-)

author: Smile2016
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2025, 01:08:34 am
content: wait.... I have SA22 Version 6.01C of 7/2006; Loader Version 3 not 6.02C

author: Name00
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2025, 01:27:47 pm
content: I'm getting close to the finishing of a Raspberry Pi Pico / ESP32-S3 controller for the Symmetricoms that use the same commands sets as the SA.22c, X99, and X72, I've put a teaser on the X99 thread although much of the development musing was here. I putting it through some long term testing now. but to date it's evolved from tracking to adjusting, to disciplining and adjusting.1) Looking for some suggestion on how best to do ADEV to see how this comparison stacks up.2) Also looking for suggestions on holdover or freerun adjustments when the GPS signal is removed. The program is do a Zero-Holdover, and keeping it as it but is tracking enough to try other methods.Below is the output from 2 different runs, I haven't been able to get a longer than 3 day run in, suffered 2 power outages, and after reach one did some small tweaks to the code to a tracking array I have.Code:MPY: soft reboot(sysname='esp32', nodename='esp32', release='1.25.0', version='v1.25.0 on 2025-04-15', machine='Generic ESP32S3 module with ESP32S3')Speed: 160000000Size : 6,291,456 bytes, 6144 KB, 6.0 MBUsed : 12,288 bytes, 12 KB, 0.01171875 MBFree : 6,279,168 bytes, 6132 KB, 5.988281 MBOverclocking to 240000000Setting up UART for ESP32-S3..Model: SA22C -- S/N: xxxx-H -- Service Pin: LOWRubidium lock is good.Calculating a new DDS value ( 0.0 )..Setting DDS to: 0.0Resetting PPS Delta to: 0Waiting for PPS reset.Start disciplining ( 2200 )..Current Count: 100 -- current Delta: 1 ( 1 )Current Count: 200 -- current Delta: 0 ( 0 ) -- Total Values: 125 -- Average: 0.625 -- Slope: -1.29333e-09Current Count: 300 -- current Delta: 0 ( 0 )Current Count: 400 -- current Delta: 0 ( 0 ) -- Total Values: 126 -- Average: 0.315 -- Slope: -1.10654e-10Current Count: 500 -- current Delta: 0 ( 0 )Current Count: 600 -- current Delta: 0 ( 0 ) -- Total Values: 127 -- Average: 0.2116667 -- Slope: -6.54486e-11Current Count: 700 -- current Delta: 0 ( 0 )Current Count: 800 -- current Delta: 0 ( 0 ) -- Total Values: 127 -- Average: 0.15875 -- Slope: -4.66223e-11Current Count: 900 -- current Delta: 0 ( 0 )Current Count: 1000 -- current Delta: 0 ( 0 ) -- Total Values: 122 -- Average: 0.122 -- Slope: -3.66582e-11Current Count: 1100 -- current Delta: 59999999 ( -1 )Current Count: 1200 -- current Delta: 0 ( 0 ) -- Total Values: 43 -- Average: 0.03583333 -- Slope: -3.33783e-11Current Count: 1300 -- current Delta: 0 ( 0 )Current Count: 1400 -- current Delta: 0 ( 0 ) -- Total Values: 40 -- Average: 0.02857143 -- Slope: -3.20914e-11Current Count: 1500 -- current Delta: 0 ( 0 )Current Count: 1600 -- current Delta: 0 ( 0 ) -- Total Values: 40 -- Average: 0.025 -- Slope: -3.09916e-11Current Count: 1700 -- current Delta: 0 ( 0 )Current Count: 1800 -- current Delta: 59999999 ( -1 ) -- Total Values: -96 -- Average: -0.05333333 -- Slope: -2.49101e-11Current Count: 1900 -- current Delta: 59999999 ( -1 )Current Count: 2000 -- current Delta: 59999999 ( -1 ) -- Total Values: -220 -- Average: -0.11 -- Slope: -2.25407e-11Current Count: 2100 -- current Delta: 59999999 ( -1 )Total value: -397 -- Entries: 2200 --Average: -0.1804545 -- Slope: -1.98440e-11Current DDS Value: 0.0 -- DDS Offset: -2.0 -- New DDS Value: -2.0Setting DDS to: -2.0Resetting PPS Delta to: 0Waiting for PPS reset...Starting Main Loop-- GC Memory Alloc: 54176 GC Memory Free: 2007072 GC Collected: NoneModel: SA22C HoldOver: False Service: LOWS/N: xxxx-H Crystal: 60000000 In Voltage: 14.81035Rb Lock: Good Current Temp: 54.5 Lamp Voltage: 13.52139PPS Delta: 0 ( 0) Adjusted: 0 ( 0) Counter: 10R Slope: 0 P.Hours: 102193 P.Ticks: 16527237C Slope: 0 DDS Adjust: -2.0 Averages: 0...-- GC Memory Alloc: 42256 GC Memory Free: 2018992 GC Collected: NoneModel: SA22C HoldOver: False Service: LOWS/N: xxxx-H Crystal: 60000000 In Voltage: 14.81035Rb Lock: Good Current Temp: 53.5 Lamp Voltage: 13.52275PPS Delta: 11 ( 11) Adjusted: 0 ( 11) Counter: 30144R Slope: 7.85609e-12 P.Hours: 102251 P.Ticks: 18541502C Slope: -9.22496e-11 DDS Adjust: -1 Averages: -0.7833333R Slope is the running slope since with adjustments since start up (I'm doing it wrong but gives me a good idea if all things were relative to 0)., and C slope is the calculated Slope since the last DDS adjustment. PPS Delta is the PPS, and Adjusted is the relative value since the last adjustment using at the time PPS as offset to make to make it zero.I do plan on putting this up on github, just waiting for a + 10 day run before I do this, where I stop getting ideas on what I want to track to make the holdover / freerun easier to implement.Update: I've decided to move any discussion of this program moving forward to the Symmetricom X99 thread.