Are we actually renting those books? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: aluck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 06:31:29 pm
content: http://www.bekkelund.net/2012/10/22/outlawed-by-amazon-drm/That's rather scary. Don't like that DRM stuff anyway.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 07:55:57 pm
content: This is not surprising if you read Amazon's TOS. Users can be terminated anytime from most services read the clause in their TOS: B&N, Facebook, Google Play, Gmail etc.,http://blog.laptopmag.com/amazon-uk-wipes-womans-kindle-library-wont-say-why

author: RCMR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 08:00:10 pm
content: Yeah, I blogged about this today:http://aardvark.co.nz/daily/2012/1023.shtmland I see some of my readers are already changing their minds about dealing with Amazon.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 08:00:45 pm
content: Install Amazon PC Software.Install calibre (Open Source eBook Manager)Search for and install Amazon DRM stripper for calibre.Drag ebook downloaded from PC software into calibre.Now have a version of the book you "purchased" that Amazon can't do anything about, in non-DRM mobi format.Note: This doesn't seem to work for the newest format, but works for most as they are mobi derivatives.

author: aluck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 08:03:23 pm
content: C'mon, man, no one is reading TOS.What bothers me with those DRM "goods" - they are, in a sense, kind of vaporware. It is not something that you own, and it occurs that it is not something that you rent forever. Actually, what are we paying for? For the right to take a glimpse that could be taken away from us anytime?I have to use Calibre every time I want to read any of my (legally owned) Kindle ebooks on a non-Kindle ebook reader.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 08:05:03 pm
content: Quote from: aluck on October 22, 2012, 06:31:29 pmSounds like they didn't get the service that was paid for - time for credit-card chargeback for all the purchased items.

author: aluck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 08:08:38 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 22, 2012, 08:05:03 pmI highly doubt that some bank would approve a chargeback on a year-old transaction.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 08:33:44 pm
content: That's why you shouldn't buy DRMed e-books! Printed books are much better. You can give them away for free, lending them out to a friend or selling them without any problem. Even the price is nearly the same. Sometimes e-books are more expensive than the printed ones. If you compare the value of a printed book and a DRMed e-book you'll notice that the DRMed one is a rip-off. If you prefer the paperless way get classics fromwww.gutenberg.org.

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 08:41:47 pm
content: bad for consumers good for businessthese imaginary property guys seem untouchable

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 08:47:16 pm
content: @ sacherjj amen. I wouldn't even get to the point of joining Amazon, there are many ways to obtain the same books without Amazon, so why bother with their TOS? or anyone else's for that matter. How to get them? If you've got skills, you already know where it is. If not, then its just a question of how badly you wish to be taken, from Apple to Amazon, choose.@ aluck, then you end up surprised as posted, and highlighted in bold. Its no different from watching a movie, you can watch it only for one sitting these days, whatever the runtime is. But if you bought the bluray, its yours until the disc breaks [ on you take sacherjj's approach as many mkv files demonstrate.]Quote from: sacherjj on October 22, 2012, 08:00:45 pmQuote from: aluck on October 22, 2012, 08:03:23 pm

author: aluck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 09:03:26 pm
content: saturation, I heard that once upon a time, in DVD epoch, Disney made a disposable DVD that could only be played once - as I reckon, tracks physically melted while played, so it virtually self-destructed. And I believe that it is not that hard to put a restriction on BD, as it already has quite a strong crypto.

author: RCMR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 09:24:52 pm
content: From an author's perspective, there are problems with sticking to paper these days.1. the royalties you get from a printed book are miniscule. I think that the last print-book I wrote, I got about 11% of the wholesale price (which can be as little as 5% of the retail).2. getting "published" in print can be a major hurdle to new authors -- the publishing houses are usually besieged by wannabe writers who have "the next big thing" so most are turned away at the door.3. convincing booksellers to stock a new title is difficult -- unless you're already a best-selling author.The whole e-book concept is *brilliant*. Anyone can write a book, go to Amazon and get it published. No hassles, no worries -- just submit your manuscript, fill out some forms, then sit back and wait for the money to roll in (yeah, right!).The realities are also that ebooks are in *big* demand. The average Kindle owner reads far more books than a non-kindle-owner and Amazon now sell more e-books than print. Authors can't afford to ditch the ebook marketplace because it's now the biggest one.As for DRM -- well that's a bit of a bugger.As an author, I like the fact that DRM has the *potential* to *reduce* the number of unauthorised copies that float around. The reality is that life is getting hard for IP creators because the Net makes it so easy to just grab what you want without paying.However, DRM never stops the determined copier and often acts as nothing but an inconvenience to genuine buyers -- in much the same way that the MPAA threatens me every time I put a store-bought DVD disk in my player or the way DRM pisses me off on my BluRay player because, to quote the disclaimer that comes on the disks"Due to copy protection, not all BluRay disks will work in all BluRay players"-- WTF?The only thing holding up the release of my new book is the thorny question of where to publish and whether to use DRM or not.I'd really love to not use DRM -- but I am a little concerned that I'd be giving a way a lot of $ if I did so. On the other hand, I know that most people are basically honest and, so long as you offer them reasonable value, will buy rather than steal.The problem is that, from a financial perspective, there's a *huge* difference between a "best seller" and a "most copied" title.

author: baljemmett
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 09:29:47 pm
content: Quote from: aluck on October 22, 2012, 09:03:26 pmThere were a few technologies along those lines -- Disney used one called Flexplay, I believe, which added a dye to the disc that would darken over the course of 48 hours after it was first exposed to the air. Rather like the special-player-based technologies before it, the marketplace figured this was a bit of a con really and kept on buying normal DVDs instead.

author: aluck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 09:50:29 pm
content: Quote from: baljemmett on October 22, 2012, 09:29:47 pmYep, but it's just a matter of years now to get more flexible version of that for BluRay. Take, for example, IMAX. All of the IMAX equipment is highly secure, and each digital copy is licensed for a given set, and could only be played within a specified time. I expect the same to appear in a consumer market within this decade or so.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 09:56:34 pm
content: Quote from: RCMR on October 22, 2012, 09:24:52 pmDo you know Techdirt? There are a lot of stories about content creators making money without DRM and not being synticated (even making more money without the gatekeepers).

author: RCMR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 10:06:02 pm
content: Quote from: madires on October 22, 2012, 09:56:34 pmYes, I keep a pretty close eye on the game.Unfortunately, for every good-luck story involving DRM-free content, there are many more bad-luck ones, where those who have cast their content upon the oceans have found that after an initial burst of sales, their work becomes devalued by the rapid trade on torrents and via other sources -- to the extent that, although there are enormous numbers of the work in the marketplace, the sales revenues do not reflect this.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 10:19:06 pm
content: Am I the only person thinking that the TOS EULA etc. in themselves constitutestatutory tortor evenlegal malpracticeby virtue of being so long and convoluted?The length of this sort of documents should be limited to no more than one page.Recently I started requesting various sales people to read out loud their sales agreements to me "because I forgot my glasses". Seems to extinguish their zeal quite quickly. Highly recommended for when you are bored.

author: aluck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 10:33:43 pm
content: HAL-42b, you aremean. Very, very mean. But they deserve it, and they know it.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 11:01:32 pm
content: Quote from: aluck on October 22, 2012, 10:33:43 pmThis was exactly the sentiment of the short skirted lady from the bank. She was trying to peddle bank loans or some such and fount it quite insulting that she was asked to read to me the 30+ page ligallise fine print that she handed to me to sign. I receive no postcards from her.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2012, 11:30:50 pm
content: Quote from: RCMR on October 22, 2012, 10:06:02 pmIsn't that quite similar to the classic way? Only a few lucky content creaters make money since the gatekeepers try to keep most of it. And if you're unknown it's hard to find a gatekeeper at all. A printed book may be read by several persons, a DVD watched not just by the family.I think that Amazon and Co. are offering a step in the right direction, e.g. providing a platform to allow the creators to sell their content more directly. But DRM is no solution to maximize revenue, it's a PITA for the consumer trying to enjoy the paid content.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2012, 09:00:40 am
content: Amazon has done similar things before...http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10289983-56.htmlAs a matter of principle, I refuse to work in systems that give anyone else absolute control over something you own. All my books are either physical or not in a DRM'd format.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2012, 01:39:34 pm
content: I couldn't agree more. I know at least one amateur retiree who now has a writing career mainly because he could get his book out via Amazon publishing and bypass many of the barriers mentioned in RCMR's post. Its certainly been a boon to startup authors. The secondary benefits are also tangible. Since various reviewers interested are looking for the next and upcoming, this amateur now is getting some revenue for his book, is making rounds in physical bookstores, libraries, etc., promoting his work. Also, the local libraries have purchased 10x copies to allow borrowers to rent out. All this with zero startup cost.As far as pirates or the OP post of being "screwed" by Amazon etc., that's another issue altogether.Quote from: RCMR on October 22, 2012, 09:24:52 pm

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2012, 01:46:28 pm
content: Yes, didn't last long because its easy to rip a DVD and bypass physical limitations. Then burn the data without the protection to another format. Also BD has been cracked and ripped since it came out. Its well known.http://makemkv.com/The reason no major crackdown against the above URL exists is because the process is still fairly demanding of the ripper. Data size of a single disc rip is about 40-60GB, not including the extras. Remastering can take fast hardware many hours to do one video. If a BD movie cost between $10-20, some even as low at $5, all are good price points, its not worth the time or effort to rip and get iffy quality.Quote from: aluck on October 22, 2012, 09:03:26 pm

author: RCMR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2012, 05:25:33 am
content: Quote from: saturation on October 23, 2012, 01:46:28 pmYou mean you'll actually spend money on BluRay disks?What bjerked technology. What good is a format that refuses to play legitimate "store bought" disks carrying the BluRay logo until you've upgraded the software in your player because the publishers are still trying to play whackamole with the pirates?I have a BR player and a DVD.More often than not, I buy the DVD version of a disk when I have the choice - for several reasons:1. I know it will play in my DVD player without farting around doing firmware updates2. I can rip out those infuriating unskippable warnings about downloading handbags and cars3. I can rip out those infuriating Dolby Digital, MGM, Universal and other endless bits of useless branding.One of the reasons many people download their movies from the Net is not because they don't want to pay for it -- it's because they find that if they buy a storebought disk they're treated like criminals (Warning: $250,000 fine....) and forced to sit through an eternity of crap before they can actually watch what they've paid for.By comparison, once a DVD's main movie is ripped, you just press play -- and it plays!My next project is to rip our huge collection of store-bought DVDs onto a couple of 2TB USB drives so we can watch them through something like the WD Live box without having to sit through the threats and other crap and so we can safely store our original disks away in case of burglary or something.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2012, 11:35:01 am
content: Only with US made disks. The Red Dwarf series disks I bought have no annoying screens, they just go to a menu, no nagware and warning screens.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2012, 03:42:50 pm
content: DVD is 480p of data at best, and if you enjoy that level of detail, why get more? Upconverted doesn't really create more data, just makes it tolerable in a large format by dithering nonexistent pixels. BD is best for 40+" screens so the extra data can be seen, which is at least double at it native resolution of 1080p. I use 50-60" screens for HDTV.As for player issues, ads, warnings, etc., sounds like your player is one to avoid, which is it? There are many good players that don't suffer such ills, you could have been caught in the BD growing pains war with HD of the late 2000s, which caused a lot of confusion in the industry. My 2008 Panasonic BD30 has never upgraded firmware, and it plays all I throw at it, including my older DVDs and it does bypass most files I wish to skip [FBI theft warnings, ads etc.,]. I made a wireless movie server in 2008 using a dedicated PC that distributes ripped files or disks, DVD or BD. I use it to distribute video to any of my screen(s) on demand. Choose your drives carefully when making a server because loosing that much data can be a pain to restore; so I mirror 5 TB drives to serve 2.5 TB of data, and in the past 5 years, so far no drives have gone down.http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-DMP-BD30K-1080p-Blu-ray-Player/dp/B000Y634SU/ref=sr_1_14?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1351091679&sr=1-14&keywords=panasonic+blu+ray+playerQuote from: RCMR on October 24, 2012, 05:25:33 am

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2012, 06:35:11 pm
content: Quote from: RCMR on October 22, 2012, 09:24:52 pmI have a lot of sympathy for authors in this regard. Their plight is not easy. It takes a lot of time to write a high quality book, and so many of them make next to nothing in return even without piracy. I really don't like DRM, but I would be willing to consider it if it were really used for preventing unauthorized copying and helping insure authors get paid. The reality is that this is only a tiny part of what DRM is used for. It is used to enforce platform lock-in, and enable new, dubious 'business models' that charge customers more to use what they already bought and paper them with ads. In extreme cases it is used simply to commit outright robbery and computer hacking which should be and probably is illegal. All the while, it isn't clear that DRM is putting a lot more money in the hands of authors. Just like there are success stories and failures with DRM-free, there are plenty of failures on amazon ebooks. Ebooks are certainly a huge market, and they are increasing the amount of books purchased and read, but I think it isn't clear how much that has to do with DRM. A lot of it is simply because amazon made a genuinely good product: the kindle and the kindle marketplace.So fuck Amazon. They can burn in hell. They have proven that they are not trustworthy with this power.