Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2018, 05:53:42 pm
content: Hi,I'm curious about the Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z. I understand the main differences, and the two things that peak my interest are that, from what I've read, the FFT appears to be better on the Siglent, and the Siglent has double the sampling rate in multi-channel use.My question is, for my uses, does it matter? Is the Siglent really worth the extra cash?I'm primarily using a scope on tube guitar amplifiers, microphones, and sometimes guitar effect pedals. Anything beyond that will be out of curiosity or for fun and not essential. Even the FFT function will probably only be out of curiosity, but it may prove useful. I don't know yet.I've already purchased the DS1054Z and have the official upgrades on it (and I like it), but I'm within the return period and a lot of people on this site have been pushing that Siglent model. I think probably both models are overkill for my needs, but I really know very little about oscilloscopes, so please let me know what you think.Thanks,Josh

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2018, 09:21:10 pm
content: Consider the Siglent as a base 'platform' for the other functionality it has. Sure vs the Rigol it offers better performance but what else it's capable of can be worth the extra $ when/if you get to need it.Say you want a 25 MHz AWG, or WiFi, or 16ch MSO, it's the base platform to support those capabilities.Only you can make that decision.

author: Adrian_Arg.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2018, 11:28:20 pm
content: hi, I have a ds1054z, totally released, I'm really very concoforme for u $ s 330. I do not think that siglent sds1104 is the big difference, if I needed to analyze FFT I would acquire a spectrum analyzer, I bought it a few months ago, and I gave account that everyone recommends with money from others, if you have 400 of recommend for 800 and so it is always, buy what you need, if you serve the siglent, rigol, etc. you only know the use you are going to give.P.S. do not forget that there are many people who are, I do not know why, I had a little problem, and the Chinese, put good will until the problem was solved, a month after being corrected I received an email if I had been satisfied.in spanishhola, yo tengo un ds1054z, totalmente liberado, realmente estoy muy concoforme por u$s 330. no creo que siglent sds1104 sea la gran diferencia, si yo precisara analidar FFT adquiriria un analizador de espectro, lo compre hase unos meses, y me di cuenta que todos recomiendan con dinero ajeno, si tenes 400 de recomiendan por 800 y asi es siempre, compra lo que precises, si te sirve el siglent, rigol, etc. vos solo sabes el uso que vas dar.PD. no te olvides que hay mucha gente que esta encontra, no se porque, yo tuve un problemita, y los chinos, pusieron buena voluntad hasta que se soluciono el problema, un mes despues de corregido recibi un correo de si habia quedado satisfecho.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 01:02:58 am
content: One other question: I read somebody comment somewhere that supposedly the Siglent probes with the 1104X-E are better than the Rigol probes with the 1054Z.Is this true? Obviously good probe quality helps make up the difference in cost.Thanks,Josh

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 01:11:26 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 18, 2018, 09:21:10 pmTBH your response makes me feel pretty comfortable keeping the Rigol. You're talking about spending $170 extra for the scope, then spending about $400 more for the wifi and awg with the software for them. That's $900 instead of the $330 I invested in the Rigol.In most cases I'll be using single channel, so the better performance won't exist outside of the FFT that I'm still not sure I'm going to use.I appreciate the sales pitch though.Thanks,Josh

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 02:55:15 am
content: No sales pitch Josh, just hard facts !OK so the WIfi is not for everybody and you might never want/need it.The AWG and 16ch MSO are another matter IF you ever have the need for either. Instead of needing to purchase other standalone products you can add this functionality and again if/when requiredandwithout sacrificing little in the way of precious bench space.None of this may mean much to your use case however it does to others.A customer not long after these 4ch X-E were released inquired about a budget 4ch DSO and AWG. As he had some previous electronic experience and was just getting back into it, after considering the cost of two items against a single package plus options, guess which one he took ?Each have different needs.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 02:59:23 am
content: It should be noted that the extra's you mention are fairly expensive. I don't think the AWG that's supposed to go with the oscilloscopes makes much sense considering what it costs compared to discrete AWGs.

author: cprosser
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 04:23:13 am
content: I have the Siglent 1104x-e. I got it mainly because I putter with mixed signal work, and I wanted the Web UI so if my back was bothering I could use it from my computer.But given what you do, I think the Rigol sounds like a great tool for you.If you ever need a logic analyzer, you can pick up an 8 channel one off amazon for $10 and use it with sigrok.

author: bugi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 10:17:13 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 19, 2018, 02:59:23 amThis is what I have been wondering, too. In most cases that I have read through (i.e. not on the expensive end of scopes), many of the options are often very simple implementations and even less capable than what a separate $50 item could do (excluding display, power supply and memory costs for fairer comparison, since on the scopes those "come free" already), yet the scope vendors happily charge hundreds for them.Even more weird is how basically the same option will cost e.g. $250 on one scope series, and $750 on another, latter apparently simply because the base scope was already $6000. Considering that for the simpler options the likely cost for the manufacturer (including amortized design/engineering costs) would be closer to $20, I'd simply make many of those features to be included in the base price on the higher-end devices.Well, I guess it is not stupid to ask for high price, but stupid to pay itThere could be buyers or use cases where buying those relatively expensive options is still beneficial. But there would be much much more of such cases if they were priced in a sensible level. But maybe that would then cut the sales of the manufacturer's separate devices (which definitely do not sell at $50, but at least they'd have more of features, bells and whistles to justify the price levels).Personally, I waited for a campaign where all the options were included in the base price (tells something about the manufacturer's real costs and profit margins), but it is not guaranteed that such bargains happen in a reasonable time frame, or even ever again (at least for particular scope series).On the original topic, I'd try to get more information on the general usability on the more commonly used features (the ones you use "all the time"). E.g. something as simple as triggers. On the paper they might have a fancy set of triggers, but in reality, 80% will not be of any use (for a particular user), and the remaining ones should work without issues and be easily adjustable. E.g. on my Siglent, I bumped about every few hours of using it to a case where the trigger simply didn't trigger when it should, and I needed to spend few minutes to figure out settings and workarounds to get some kind of useful triggering to happen. Granted, the issues tend to happen in somewhat "tough" situation, but still, looking at the display, it _should_ have had plenty enough good data to have triggered. I'd gladly trade 20% of FFT goodness to better triggering(Note: I haven't yet tested that trigger problem (or actually any of the issues I have wrote down) with the latest firmware, so.. there is a small chance it has been improved/fixed.)

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 11:11:45 am
content: Quote from: bugi on August 19, 2018, 10:17:13 amCan you explain this situation with some detailed documents about real signal and test setup etc and including scope model and FW also.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 11:36:28 am
content: Quote from: bugi on August 19, 2018, 10:17:13 amOut of curiosity, which scope did you go with?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 11:49:39 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 19, 2018, 02:55:15 amI was just teasing you.BTW- I didn't include the MSO in that $900 price. That's even more $$$.For my needs, I'm using a Tenma 72-505 audio generator that I got from Newark for $34. It produces clean waveforms, and it's battery powered so it's floated and I don't have to worry about ground loops. If I ever need a pulse signal, I bought a signal generator app on Windows for $2.49 that also produces clean waveforms through my USB soundcard.

author: bugi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 03:52:01 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on August 19, 2018, 11:11:45 amOnce I get the time to retest the issues I have seen previously, but now on the latest firmware, I'll certainly provide the info about any remaining issues. I tried to write down them as well as I could at the time, exactly for this purpose. (But don't hold breath, it is the last day of my summer vacation, and who knows what kind of pile is waiting at work tomorrow...)

author: bugi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 04:14:24 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 19, 2018, 11:36:28 amSiglent SDS2304X. That is, not one of these nice new entry-level choices, don't even remember if either or both were available at the time.I think I need to clarify that I did not wait for that specific campaign/bundle (I didn't even know what or if anything would be coming). I just waited for something of a bargain, e.g. a pure discount could have been used to buy at least some of the options (with "saved" money), and in my case it happened to result with the mentioned bundle. During that campaign the lower bandwidth variants got a bandwidth increase to next higher bw variant instead.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 07:25:20 pm
content: Does anybody have any opinions on the probes that come with the two units?Does anybody think there's a different model I should be considering?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 08:25:34 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 19, 2018, 07:25:20 pmThe GW Instek GDS-1054B is cheap and it can be hacked through software to get decoding. The firmware of this oscilloscope is mature so it will work as advertised. The Siglent is likely to be 'work in progress' so you should really check the relevant threads to see if any of the outstanding issues affects your use case.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 08:38:24 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 19, 2018, 11:49:39 amTease if you must but it appears you haven't done as much research as you could have.In this thread are the comparison between probes:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665If you really want to get a handle on these 4ch X-E's start studying that thread in full and you'll likely end up in this tread where additional specs and capabilities are explored where you can see why the additional cost of SDS1104X-E can return a DSO that will better meet the needs of a user as their experience grows.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/We do this stuff as many don't seem to be able to get to grips with datasheets and understand the advanced capabilities the 4ch X-E's offer to the entry level marketplace.I won't go on as everything you need to know is in the 2 threads linked above.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 09:32:44 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 19, 2018, 08:38:24 pmThat thread doesn't compare the Rigol probes to the Siglent probes. It's nice that the Siglent probes perform well compared to others, but it doesn't tell me anything about what I asked.Datasheets are great, but they also don't tell me about real world experience. That's what forums like this are for. When I asked for opinions of what might be better for MY USE - primarily tube guitar amps - then that's what I'd like to hear opinions about.No offense, but I would prefer some less biased opinions be voiced.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 10:15:37 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 20, 2018, 09:32:44 pmNo offense but, with comments like this last msg, the only opinions you'll be hearing are your own. You asked for opinions and people give them for free, you choose the ones that interest you. No reason to criticise/attack them. If you have a prebuit decision-tree or a choice-matrix then you better "insert coin".

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 10:19:59 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on August 20, 2018, 10:15:37 pmSorry, but I get frustrated when I'm trying to get information and a clearly biased representative for a company starts info dumping and selling a product, without actually reading my question, or producing relevant information.I thought I'd be able to find unbiased, experienced, and useful opinions here, but maybe not if all I'm going to get is attitude and sales pitches.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 10:32:26 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 20, 2018, 09:32:44 pmOK, sorry I've led you off on a tangent.WRT the probes for each, some have had bad experiences with the grabbers not staying on and I have too with Siglent ones but it's more likely user error from not pressing them home properly so they won't fall off.Anyways, probes need be considered as consumables and should not be a major factor in deciding which scope to buy, at least in this price bracket. Most likely entry level probes are sourced from the same 3rd party supplier for both Rigol and Siglent.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 10:35:53 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 20, 2018, 10:32:26 pmThanks, that's good advice, I hadn't thought of it that way. Is there a particular probe model you like?Thanks,Josh

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 11:11:10 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 20, 2018, 10:35:53 pmIn this price bracket and relatively low BW they're all much of a muchness but each are selected asbestfor a particular model DSO. The post I linked before demonstrates this.Most like fixed attenuation probes, they can be smaller and more pleasant to use but again there can be issues with insufficient sensitivity using only 10x probes and also accuracy if the lowest input attenuation settings of a DSO are just a magnification of some higher vertical input setting.For what most do with a scope anything reasonable can be fine, even the amazingly cheap P6100's from eBay.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 08:35:29 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 20, 2018, 10:19:59 pmNope. Mostly religion and Siglent dealers posting here.For about three years the Rigol was way out on it's own in terms of bang/buck.Now the Siglent has arrived, Rigolfinallyhas a competitor but it's also about 40% more money. The price difference tells you everything you really need to know.Me? I say two things:a) Four channels good, two channels bad.b) The difference between owning an oscilloscope/not owning an oscilloscope is like night and day. The difference between Rigol and Siglent? Nowhere near as much. Sure, the Siglent is nicer, but for for the same price you can have a Rigolplusa decent soldering iron or power supplyanda couple of ANENG multimeters. If you're just starting out then that seems a better deal, a decent soldering iron or power supply will make a much bigger difference to your life than owning a Siglent will.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 11:55:51 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 21, 2018, 08:35:29 amCan we talk about politics too?I'm not starting out, I've had a bench setup for a couple decades, but put off buying a scope because I didn't need one right away and then didn't know what to get, and didn't want an old school scope (which is all I really need, but I like newer tech). These days I have an Aoyue 2703A+ iron, and it's great. Toroid ISB-060W isolation transformer, a Tekpower TP3005P power supply, and lots of other little test equipment for my needs. So it really comes down to what scope will suit me without being wasteful.I recently bought the DS1054Z and a Tenma 72-505 audio generator (the Tenma is great, and all I need for guitar amp testing). My question is whether the Siglent will really benefit me enough that I should return the Rigol and pay more for the Siglent. So far the only 2 real world benefits I see for my uses are 1. it looks prettier (I like the simplicity of the layout) and 2. the web interface is cool (even though I probably won't ever use it much if at all). The better multi-channel sampling rate is an obvious plus, but where I'm mostly using 1 channel at a time, I won't normally benefit enough for the investment for that alone. I'm certainly not going to invest in the Siglent add-ons, at that point I'd rather invest in another scope.Thanks,Josh

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 12:41:21 pm
content: I read a lot about tube amps, I have a Vibrolux Reverb and a Vibro Champ that I bought new in the early 70's and after spending much of their life in the closet they are in need of recapping. Most of the old school amp guys feel a basic analog scope of 20Mhz is all that is needed for valve amp work. I am sure that goes out the window when you switch to solid state and digital effects. I have a couple old Tektronix scopes, but have heard from several places that off-brands like Leader and Iwatsu can be better values. If you have said you already have one of these I missed it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 12:48:51 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 21, 2018, 11:55:51 amThe "better multi-channel sampling rate" won't make any difference at all at guitar amp frequencies.Youmightbe better off with a better FFT than the Rigol's (do you ever do FFTs?) but neither will compete with a Bode Plot done by a simple PC sound card.So, no. Stick with the Rigol if you already have it (IMHO).

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 02:20:23 pm
content: I've got an SDS1104X, fully hacked, and it is a great scope. I've also got the Logic Analyzer even after Tautech tried to talk meoutof getting it! (He's not just a Siglent salesman- I think he offers a lot of fair and valuable input) But, frankly, it sounds like overkill for your needs. The $170 difference would only seem to make sense if you were going to seriously explore or expand your use case. I'm not even sure why you would buy a 4 channel scope?

author: SMB784
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 03:28:33 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 21, 2018, 11:55:51 amI concur with Fungus on this subject, if you're looking for a simply great deal for starting an electronics hobby, go with the Rigol and a bundle of other goodies to get you going. Your money is definitely better spent that way if you are starting out.Having owned both the Rigol DS1054Z and the Siglent SDS1104X-E I can safely say that they are both great scopes and an amazing deal. The Siglent definitely has the edge at the moment when it comes to specs, and in my own opinion the Siglent price/performance is superior to the Rigol. However, for a lower frequency application like audio stuff I would say that the performance is about the same, and the price point definitely makes the Rigol the more compelling option.So, if you are planning to use the scope primarily (and perhaps only) for your stated application, I would say the Rigol is the better option and you probably wont see any added benefit from spending more money. However, if you ever want to do something at higher frequencies, the higher bandwidth ceiling, better sampling per channel, higher WFM updates per second, and better memory per channel will be a tremendous boon to your bench.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 03:40:37 pm
content: Quote from: SMB784 on August 21, 2018, 03:28:33 pmThanks, this is helpful. My interest for this really is limited to guitar amps and music toys. I can't even think of anything I'd be interested in using this for beyond that. For a living I do graphic and web design, with a guitar & amp business on the side. I don't have time to venture into anything else. Maybe I'll eventually read something on this site that will pique my interest into another area and I'll upgrade in the future? Who knows.Thanks,Josh

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 05:35:51 pm
content: Quote from: Old Printer on August 21, 2018, 12:41:21 pmYeah, that's what everybody in the industry goes for. Cheap, old school 20Mhz scopes. A fairly well-known amp tech recommends buying a used scope for $100. That's not for me at all. I may never use many of the features of this scope, but I do like some of the extras I've used so far (for example, measuring the input frequency).What brand caps are you going to use on the amps? I wouldn't recommend buying into the brand hype guitar nuts get addicted too. Use your EE brain and stick with 1 brand of high quality caps per amp unless you really need the vintage aesthetic.Thanks,Josh

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 08:27:12 pm
content: Just to throw this out there, since I probably don't need 4 channels (yes, I know most of you love 4 channels) - what do you think about the SDS1202X-E vs the 1054Z for me?The difference in price will be about $25 more excluding any potential shipping... Should I consider that 2 channel model for an FFT function I might not use, or stick with the Rigol for 4 channels I might not use? I'm such a pain in the ass, I know.Thanks,Josh

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 08:36:04 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 21, 2018, 08:27:12 pmIf we're going down that road you should probably get the GW-Instek - four channelsanda better FFT.Seriously though: A PC sound input will do amuchbetter FFT than the Siglent/Rigol/GW-Instek ever can (a 16 bit ADC will win every time!) but there's no way you can add a couple of extra channels to a 2-channel 'scope.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 08:51:31 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 21, 2018, 08:27:12 pmCheck the comparison chart in the first post here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 09:32:27 pm
content: Uh oh. I might have found something useful in the SDS1104X-E's favor. It looks like that can handle 400VDC input according to the datasheet, and the Rigol only 300VDC. Am I reading that right?Assuming I'm reading that right, that might be useful. Or should I be more interested in a differential scope for that voltage level? A few spots on my amps go above 300, usually not above 350 for most circuits I build. I dunno if I'd ever connect there, but, ya know...or never know.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 09:39:45 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 21, 2018, 09:32:27 pmThe risk is if you should mistakenly use the probe on a 1:1 setting. Hence my mention earlier that some prefer fixed attenuation probes.However when we go probing HV we should always double, er no...... triple check our setup.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 10:05:37 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 21, 2018, 09:39:45 pmA piece of tape can make a probe fixed attenuation.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 10:20:19 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 21, 2018, 09:32:27 pmYes, but... that's therawinput. You'll normally be using a 10x probe so the input can be up to 3000V.(and you should be using special probeslongbefore you get that high - the Rigol supplied probes aren't rated for that sort of voltage).Quote from: tautech on August 21, 2018, 09:39:45 pmYep. If you work on anything over 100V it's definitely a good idea to get a couple of fixed 10x probes for daily use to avoid accidents - you hardly ever need the 1x setting anyway (in fact I don't think I've ever used it).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 10:23:42 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 21, 2018, 10:05:37 pmOr some hot glue.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 10:37:19 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 21, 2018, 10:05:37 pmRather, for the instrumentandmy safety I use a 100:1 probe on anything over ~150V.Remember most switchable probes in 1:1 mode are only rated to 300V and normally to 600V in 10:1 mode.I prefer a higher safety margin especially when probing high energy sources like something that controls mains power.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2018, 12:24:26 am
content: Cool, so the probes handle the voltage, and I don't need to worry about the input voltage in 10:1 or 100:1 as long as I'm within spec of the probes. That's what I originally thought, but I read some comments while researching the Instek as an alternative and somebody commented about that and the Rigol both only having 300V inputs, and that threw me off. Oops.I ordered a couple Pico TA131 probes. I'm not opposed to super-glueing and taping the switches to be safe.Any recommendations on a 100:1 probe?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2018, 12:53:56 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 22, 2018, 12:24:26 amNone in particular.They need to be able to compensate to cover the input capacitance of the scope inputs and you would be wise to at least get scope BW or better.You won't need to spend much as I've seen them for under $40 and you don't need the flashiest for audio work.Just check they come with a ground spring and tip sleeves in the accessories pack.

author: GregDunn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2018, 01:46:07 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 21, 2018, 08:27:12 pmI used a 15 MHz Tek scope for decades on audio gear - it's far higher bandwidth than you should ever need for audio. Even the PWM frequencies of Class D amps are far below the BW limit on these older scopes.But speaking of audio and high power amps: if you ever plan to work on a bridge mode amp and verify the output, there's three channels used up right away (input plus 2 channels in math difference mode to measure the output) plus any other signal that you're trying to track down during troubleshooting. I never really thought about a 4 channel scope before, and now I use 2-3 channels at a time for pretty much everything. I know not everyone goes down this path, but I'd never cut corners on a piece of test gear; sometimes that upgrade becomes very desirable once you start using the equipment and recognize its potential use.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2018, 02:15:30 am
content: Any opinions on these scopes?:Cal Test CT2707BK Precision PR100ATPI P250RThey all spec about the same, but I dunno how they test in real life.Thanks,Josh

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2018, 02:49:42 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 22, 2018, 02:15:30 amAny will be fine and they're all probably from the same maker.Now which would I buy and why ?Theredone.Got a couple of 100x probes in my probe bag and guess which one is easiest to find ?When connected to a scope, guess which one is seen at a glance to identify what could be an HV connection ?My 2c.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2018, 02:51:32 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 22, 2018, 02:49:42 amThat's exactly what I was thinking! I like the red one.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2018, 02:54:17 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 22, 2018, 02:51:32 amSome things are really simple, right ?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2018, 10:30:20 pm
content: I hate to admit it, but I think the Siglent SDS1104X-E might be winning me over. I've been watching too many of Dave's videos and I've heard him say a couple times now about the shared 1G not being enough for 4 channels at 100Mhz...and prior to seeing any of this, I was told to find a minimum of 400M per channel, so if I believe that I'll ever do more than 2 channels...I may have the excuse I need.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 01:41:44 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 23, 2018, 10:30:20 pmOnly if you plan to use 4 chanels at 100MHz BW signal. If using 2 channels the rigol has 500MSa/s which should be enough for a 100MHz signal, so still useful there but only using 2 channels. While the siglent using 2 channels you can get 1GSa/s, and using only one channel both 1GSa/s.I went for the Rigol because was waaay cheaper to get for me, I would have to pay twice to get the Signlent, as shipping rates from stores where it was available to ship to me were way higher, like 3 times what I payed for the Rigol shipping. YMMV here, so with a closer price the fight is open. Then there are a few other differences, the bode plotting looks great, probably better with a dedicated signal generator than the optional one for the scope, but still not great as it has many limitations. The ability to add the logic analyzer later is a nice one too, for having a MSO as the time comes, and money and needs agreed on this, but is an expensive option to have a logic analyzer compared to many other out there, and going to the PC as usual as I do I can mix them there (analog and digital) for the time where it's needed)JS

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 02:05:21 am
content: Quote from: JS on August 24, 2018, 01:41:44 amFor my current needs, they're both overkill. The issue is that people keep giving me ideas of how I might use them, and some of them sound reasonable. For me, the difference in price will be about $140 between the two units, and I get free shipping.In all honesty, being the tech/computer type that I am, it bothers me to pay for an old computer. From that perspective, and for an extra $140 I get a newer computer with 1M FFT, double the multi-channel sampling, built-in web server, 400VDC input, and the POTENTIAL for other crap Iprobablywon't use. I probably won't ever use the logic input, but it's there. I dunno if I'd ever shell out any cash for their AWG addon, but the option is there.And even though I don't care at all about the WiFi module, I'm interested in it for one reason: the TP-Link adapter model (TL-WN725N) that Siglent charges $70 for is available for $10 or less, and I'm curious if I could get the cheap one to work. I dunno if anybody has tried or not, I haven't looked yet.Thanks,Josh

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 02:23:19 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 02:05:21 amThey work for sure ! I got the gold versions very early on and theyarethe right version. Latest FW indicates additional versions have been added, maybe the bit cheaper silver version but TBH I don't know for sure.Should you ever want to pop the display onto a wireless device this option is excellent for this. My iPhone 4S is a little too old to work with it but later ones do. It's also great for grabbing screenshots on a remote laptop or tablet where you can then shift them on without even needing a USB stick.Others have worked around using the USB WiFi dongle by adding a LAN to WiFi module and powering it from the rear USB. Still the WiFi dongle is the neatest solution IMHO. There is however a PSK character # restriction currently that's been bought to Siglents attention so hopefully the next batch of FW will allow for a longer PSK.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 02:43:00 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 02:05:21 amI see what you say about buying old gear, but note that the ADC/ASIC is not any newer on the siglent, just has two of them.1M FFT is nice, I won't go against that, but I process so much data on the PC that that doesn't bother me, I just pick the data from matlab or something like that directly over lan or USB, and then I have a 24M FFT.Same thing with the web server, much better than a crappy app that runs only on windows which I don't use, but as I say, I take the data directly from the software I process, not the app, web server or any other way basically.The options are all SW+HW, so you need to get both, the TP-link will probably work but you need the SW option to go with it, I don't know if there are walkarounds the options, if there aren't they will eventually. The AWG gen isn't that great, compared to a dedicated AWG and the price difference (those $140 will cover that difference) but the ease of use with a siglent AWG and the signlent scope I belive is not there with the Rigol. Again solved with little work if connected to the network, being a PC guy that shouldn't be so harsh. Also, I can see the use of the optional AWG in the field, if you need to go out with both, the optional AWG fits in a pocket of the scope's bag.I think dave said it while looking at the Siglent, is a tight match, it has quite a few extra features but nothing game changing, and the price is a bit higher but not too much to not consider it. It does depends on your needs, your pocket and your future planning, you might be better putting those $140 there or you might be better putting those on some extra gear, for me the difference was twice as much so I didn't even considered twice, after looking for quite a while I couldn't get the Siglent delivered under $700+ or something like that, cheapest shipping was $200 and wasn't the cheapest seller for the scope to start with and got the rigol as listed with $70 shipping. That, on top that I've just finished the university so I'm rigging up the lab completly, I got a 121GW, as a logging DMM that I needed, I need to get some lab PSU and signal generator, a truck of different probes for the scope as I work with audio (low noise, low level signals) and industrial (not so low nothing) plus current probes, etc. so I knew I better saved the bux for the other stuff as well.JS

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 02:50:29 am
content: Quote from: JS on August 24, 2018, 02:43:00 amSo you missed the X-E spec of full BW 500uV/div range and not some multiplication/magnification of 5mV/div ?Use a 1x probe on sensitive circuits and you'll see why this matters to some.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 04:46:32 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 24, 2018, 02:50:29 amI wish I have it, yes, I can't live without it, meh, would I pay $350 for that difference, hell no!Audio circuits aren't as sensitive for 1M and a few pf load, so X1 probes are fine, even more in the low level signals where impedances are even lower than usual. Then, as all signals lives within reasonable rails and are low bandwidth building a low noise amplifier for those is a breeze. I haven't come across the need quite yet but I know I can, but I have options there.There are many many differences between the two... Update rate, record mode/segmented memory, CAN/LIN decoders, are some I haven't seen in this thread.Don't get me wrong, if I could have gotten it for a reasonable prize difference I'd probably had gone for the Siglent, but only then is a tight choice. Now, if the Rigol is already overkill for his needs justifying the extra $$ is hard, even if you have it always can go to a different corner of the lab, as soon as he gets the scope he will see the need for a signal generator, or something else. In my case, I do get a few jobs I need to bring into the lab and there's when it comes to use, when will I need the difference between one and the other I don't know, but at some point I will, I hope I will be able to justify some higher model by that point so I make a bigger jump.JS

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 05:20:40 am
content: Quote from: JS on August 24, 2018, 04:46:32 amGood you can see the differences and know if they'll matter to you.QuoteAll visible in datasheets.QuoteYeah that was the killer for you.......all up price with freight.Shame your local Siglent guys weren't a bit more competitive.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 05:48:22 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 24, 2018, 05:20:40 amYes, I know many people can't get their heads around the scope but I got it quite fast years ago, I was waiting to have my own for long enough, but I've used many at the university, from some old nice tek to some of the cheapest LeCroy out there, seriously crappy, a slug drawing on a big board would beat their response.Worth to mention I have unlocked the 500uV/div of the Rigol and is only of any use with high averaging, noise chews 2 div in a single capture.QuoteYes, rigol doesn't even mention the 500uV/div anywhere, they can't sell that but I don't know why they don't include it already in the free pack, as I said with some long averaging might let you see something you can't otherwise. Anyway is not nice. Down to 2mV/div seems to do a reasonable job, 1mV is pretty noisy already.QuoteLocally nothing is competitive, I don't even think in buying here. I did ask official local Siglent distributor but they were going out of business at the time and wouldn't even import it for me. But it would likely be more expensive than the expensive option I already had. Local suppliers usually charge over twice as what you see in most listings in any other country.Quick look, just shy of $1000 for a... Wait for it... Little longer... Getting there! DS1052ESo, my 1054Z at $350 + $70 shipping + $150 custom fees is quite reasonable, but makes me wanna cry... Everithing is like that here, from this to the noodles, go figure. Oh, without a degree you are lucky to get $700 a month in your check.I'm after a AWG and a LAB PSU now, and of course considering Siglent, if you know a distributor with reasonable international shipments let me know!JS

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 06:11:09 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 02:05:21 amTest gear isn't really comparable to PCs in that regard.Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 02:05:21 amIt's 40% more expensive, maybe 40% better. If you really can't think of something else for $140 that would ACTUALLY make your life better (ie. today), then, whatever. It's your money.(Bench power supply, Signal generator, Hakko soldering station, Brymen multimeter...)PS: As noted earlier: the 400VDC input is a red herring when you use 10x probes and a USB analyzer costs under $10 on eBay (or more than $10 if you want an even better one) - much cheaper than the hundreds of $$ a logic upgrade to an oscilloscope costs.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 08:16:43 am
content: Quote from: JS on August 24, 2018, 05:48:22 amSeveral but it's very bad form to sell into another authorized distributors patch, period.However there is a worldwide grey market, (parallel imports) and most of it stems from Hong Kong or China and many brands are affected. When a distributors patch is blatantly undermined by these sellers and the manufacturers make no effort to set robust guidelines or hard and fast rules it's no wonder equipment distributors set higher margins to remain profitable against overseas suppliers.Good luck should you need warranty or specialized support from the Asian mum and dad backstreet shops, just good luck !

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 08:34:49 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 24, 2018, 08:16:43 amI wish I never get there. In this case there is no autorized siglent distributor here anymore, I think still appears in the siglent web but they went out of business months ago. Even if I bought it here good luck to get support from them! Here support sucks in everyway, so I don't really trust local distributors to make any kind of useful support, let alone fast or reasonable, still would likely need to pay a pretty penny for shipment and what not. Then, getting it from overseas I could get two for the price of one locally, if I can get it here, which leaves some margin for the risk to worth it.The problem here is not high margins but taxes, with 50% import fee, 21% iva (vat?) plus a few smaller extra and taxes applied on taxes, with a reasonable margin the price is still pretty expensive. With all that I've bassically given up designing any product as producing them here even as prototypes would cost that much more than anywhere else, not to mention waiting 2 month for anything from a resistor to a super specialized part, wrong place to be a EE designer I guess, so I settle for mainly industrial work but still need a few tools to debug and fix some gear which would take too long to get replacements for.JS

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 08:40:47 am
content: According to the Siglent 'How to Buy' page you have two Argentina distributors:http://www.siglent.com/ENs/lxwms.aspx?id=616Which one is isn't active anymore ?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 08:44:20 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2018, 06:11:09 amUSB "analyzer" (what analyzer) is not oscilloscope at all. How you analyze signal waveform with these kind of USB "analyzers". They show only decode result or just binary state from signal but you do not see this signal itself at all. Oh you can use external scope for this but where is then time synchronization between scope screen signal and computer screen decode result or 1-0 states.MSO is just for look digital AND analog signal together with tight time synchronization if use digital channels for decode some serial communication or some other bus. If do not use digital inputs for decode then use analog channels for decode and you have decode and decoded signals analog waveform between signals with tight time synchronization on the screen.Cheap USB "box" can not do this at all.If only need decode, both scopes have free serial decoder and in this Siglent have bit more than this Rigol.But then, if need MSO functions what means integrated scope and LA then these cheap USB decoders are not these at all)So if example later user find that he need MSO with 4 analog channels and 16 digital channels what can use all fully together simultaneously he do not need buy new scope if he have SDS1104X-E.But if he have DS1054Z or 1104Z then this is just impossible. Only way is buy whole new MSO scope and there come Rigol MSO1104Z. But again, it is mostly same as DS1000Z models with all its goods and bads.Example fact that it can not dosimultaneously16 digital + 4 analog. You need drop off more or less analog channels if you use digital channels. If want 16 digital then only 2 analog channels can use. Siglent is different. Fun - is it.This is fun to say that Siglent need buy expensive extra options... if user need options yes, but then also compare to other brands need do fair way. Even if you buy R. MSO1104Z (in europe consumer price typically 950 eur) do not get even nearly same as with SDS1104X-E + MSO-LA option what european consumer price is around 965 euro).Some ask why Siglent MSO-LA option cost hundreds.But when we go to Rigol, why not ask why MSO model price is hundreds more than same without MSO. Fun - is it.Oh well, and then some may tell that 50MHz Rigol can hack to 100MHz model. Well, at this time yes.But, at same time Siglent 100MHz model can hack afaik 200MHz model. SoAnd prices. 40% cheaper?? Yes it depends...Consumer prices, well known very reputable and trusted "spitzenklasse" Batronix:DS1054Z. 403 eurSiglent SDS1104X-E. 510 eur.-----------------But then. All what is important is what meets user needs!And here, imho, even DS1054Z is more than OP need if need is all what we can see here.Foraudioit is true that many sound cards and PC software can do lot of better work than 8 bit ADC oscilloscope with what ever memory length. Even normal "crap" sound card what every computer have (more or less crap) can do better, and if want or need better or lot of better then need - money or lot of more money.I recommend first test with just this sound card what is in home already and some free software and if never have seen what these can do without any investment - it may be astonishing.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 08:47:12 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 24, 2018, 08:16:43 amIn my experience a local distributor can be unhelpful as well. It is a bit of a hit & miss and you don't know until it is too late. Usually I use google with the company name and the world 'problem' to see if a shop is any good or not before buying. Last year I bought something from Italy instead of the local NL distributor because the NL distributor seemes to have very bad customer services (sell broken / DOA items and then let customers wait weeks or months for repairs).

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 10:17:00 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2018, 06:11:09 amIn most cases I would agree. However, IMO most DSOs are really limited/mediocre computers with BNC terminals on them. Ooooh, this one has an 800x480 screen on it, wow! It's kind of pathetic really.Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2018, 06:11:09 amI have everything I need otherwise. I have a Tenma 72-505 audio generator that does any signal generating I really need. I have an Amprobe 37XR-A meter that covers my uses (obviously among other DMMs lol). I'm not a big fan of Hakko though, I think they're overpriced. I have an Aoyue 2703A+ that's excellent for my needs. Bench supply and isolation transformers are also covered. I have no need for another meter, but I would still buy a 121GW for the hell of it/sheer curiosity...I mean to support the blog.I get that perspective, but I don't think of it like "what else can I spend $140 on now." I think of it more along the "buy cheap, buy twice" proverb. Yes, the Rigol is $140 cheaper right now, and covers my needs right now, but will it end up costing me more next year when I realize I needed more out of the scope? Of course, I could be kidding myself to get a shinier toy. I am aware of that possibility.Thanks,Josh

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 01:37:42 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on August 24, 2018, 08:44:20 amYou use your oscolloscope!Quote from: rf-loop on August 24, 2018, 08:44:20 amAll true, but:a) It's really just a convenience, not a necessity.b) It's a really expensive convenience ($300+ for the add-on - nearly as much as a Rigol!)c) A USB logic analyzer ismuchbetter for recording long data sequences and analyzing them than a tiny-screen knobs-and dials device.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 02:06:52 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 10:17:00 amAs a car analogy: It's more like ticking the "leather" option box on a Ford Fiesta. It makes the car a nicer, yes, but ... your daily commute and weekly shop will be about the same in real terms.That said: If you like leather seats and have the money then go ahead and tick it. The next step up (eg. Ford Focus) is a big step so you might as well get some options for your Fiesta.Just realize you're not upgrading to a huge SUV (or Mercedes Benz, depending on taste) when you tick the "Siglent" box.

author: wpwrak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 02:29:42 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 24, 2018, 08:40:47 amTemtec seem to be gone. They used to be in the city, had a fairly comprehensive catalog, and could also get things that weren't in the catalog. Now they're somewhere out in the woods and sell what looks like leftover stock of exotic parts. Ah, scratch that. Now their domain has expired, too.I asked Electro Tools for a quote a few months ago, and the price they gave me was roughly what it would cost to import (with taxes, customs fees, etc.) two scopes on my own. So I did (just getting one, though).

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 04:02:14 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2018, 02:06:52 pmI hear all that except I don't care for Ford at all.Okay. So here's the question then: what would you consider the proper next step up if I want somethingactuallybetter? Keeping in mind that higher bandwidth means little to nothing for my use.Thanks,Josh

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 04:15:18 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 04:02:14 pmIf you want four channels it gets expensive real fast.If you want two analog + one digital channel, there's this:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-976-keysight-1000-x-series-oscilloscope-teardown/

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 04:25:20 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 04:02:14 pmGW Instek MSO2000 series or the R&S RTB2000 series. Personally I wouldn't buy any of Keysight's current oscilloscope offerings because the memory is too small. You'd think 4Mpts ought to be enough but that 4Mpts is shared so you are left with 500kpts with the digital channels on.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 04:28:21 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 24, 2018, 04:25:20 pmR&S make really nice oscilloscopes.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 04:46:49 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2018, 04:28:21 pmYes and no. The big touch screen on the R&S RTB2000 is nice to use but the GW Instek MSO2000 can do filtering and math on the actual data where the RTB2000 uses decimated data. Also the FFT on the GW Instek is 1Mpts versus 128k. It is very hard to justify the extra costs of the R&S RTB2000 versus the GW Instek MSO2000 from a functional perspective.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 04:51:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 24, 2018, 04:25:20 pmI agree, I wasn't impressed with the Keysight specs, especially for the price. But I'm also not a fan of Instek's footprint, though they are quite competitive on paper.I would love to have an RTB2004, but you're killing me here. I don't need a $2000 scope (as pretty as it is - I want it just for the aesthetic, it would look amazing on my bench). The $300 to $500 range is overkill for my needs, any of these $2000 scopes are well beyond any perceivable ROI for me. A $500 scope pays for itself. A $2000 scope that doesn't do anything better for me just costs me an extra $1500.Thanks,Josh

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 05:15:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 24, 2018, 04:46:49 pmYes, but the R&S is 10bit so it'll be better.Long buffers are used to compensate for lack of bits.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 05:23:15 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 04:51:29 pmYou didn'tneedthe Siglent, either.Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 10:17:00 am

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 05:40:44 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2018, 05:23:15 pmHaha, that's true. But I do like the idea of it.More than that I like the idea of not being limited by the DS1054Z. If I ever need more, I have to replace the Rigol. With the Siglent, I might not need to add to it, but if I want to, I can.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 05:57:03 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2018, 05:15:57 pmNo. Short FFT reduces the ability to see both a sensible part of the signal and the frequency domain in a sensible way. Last year I worked on a project where my GW Instek GDS2000E (the version without digital channels) really helped me because of the input filtering and long FFT. It was just perfect for the job.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 06:08:16 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 05:40:44 pmHave you seen the price of the Siglent logic analyzer option? It costs nearly as much as the 'scope. You can buy an Analog Discovery 2 for much less than that 'upgrade'. An AD2 will do 16-channel logic analysisandbe much, much better for Audio work (it has 14 bit ADC, AWG, can do Bode plots, etc.). In fact: For your statedneedsyou might want to forget the 'scope for a while and get an Analog discovery instead.https://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 06:17:14 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2018, 06:08:16 pmI have no interest in the logic analyzer. I would probably go that AD2 route if I ever need it. Then I would have the Siglent plus the AD2, which still sounds like a better combo than the Rigol and the AD2...Wow, I'm looking at the specs on the AD2, my interest is certainly piqued. This might be useful regardless of what bench scope I stick with. It's certainly a bargain for what it does.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 06:38:41 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 06:17:14 pmThe supplied software is really good, too.(A lot of those sort of gadgets have good hardware but rubbish software. Not the AD2...)

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 07:03:08 pm
content: For digital oriented projects, the Digilent Digital Discovery is another nice tool. I have both...If I just want to look at something, my DS1054Z is fine. But if I want to have nice printed results for documentation (or study material), the AD2 does a better job. Not necessarily more complete, the DS makes a LOT of measurements, but I tend to copy the AD2 screen image to the clipboard and then manipulate it with Paint.There's a lot to be said for the educational value of the AD2. Particularly in the early years when filters and response curves are being discussed. The AD2 Bode' plot is better than any scope version I have ever seen. And the image isn't cramped on my 27" monitor!

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 07:18:03 pm
content: Okay, that all makes lots of sense. I certainly like the idea of the AD2 and all the extra useful features it has for future uses. Besides being better quality, it's more cost-effective than the Siglent addons+required options.Here's the remaining question between the Rigol vs. Siglent: some of you have convinced me that I will end up using 3 or 4 channels at a time eventually. Even if I'm only using 2, the Siglent does support double the sampling ability when running any level of multi-channels. It seems to me like this should be important in my decision making between the two models?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 07:34:05 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 07:18:03 pmIt is but not the only one.Have you discovered the UI latency in the 54Z ?Youwon'texperience that in the X-E !

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 07:45:05 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 24, 2018, 07:34:05 pmNo, but I'd love to.My uses right now have been hooked up to a tube amp output jack. I'm assuming I'd have to do something fancier to get some screen lag to happen?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 08:04:15 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 07:18:03 pmThat's a good question.Theoretically you don't need it, 2.5x the bandwidth is enough to perfectly reconstruct a signal (Rigol has exactly 2.5x with all channels on).In practice? I'm not sure how much difference it really makes (screenshots, anybody?)Remember though: You can turn a couple of channels off on the Rigol to get 1GHz sampling when you really need to look closely at a waveform. That makes this a convenience feature on the Siglent not a showstopper for the Rigol.And on that note we're right back to, "The Siglent is 40% more expensive so itoughtto be at least 40% better/nicer/whatever than the Rigol".Quote from: tautech on August 24, 2018, 07:34:05 pmDon't exaggerate. The onlyrealdifference is in the vertical position control and the Rigol works well enough.(and (b), The Siglent is 40% more expensive, so...)PS: Have we mentioned how much twiddling is needed to enable a simple on-screen measurement on the Siglent? The Rigol has a nice row of buttons down the left hand side for that.Here's a reminder:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1526209/#msg1526209Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 07:45:05 pmDon't miss the Siglent UI apologetic thread above

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 08:34:50 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2018, 08:04:15 pmBetween the two of you I can't decide which way to go, but at least it's entertaining.Question: If YOU were running 3 or 4 channels at 100Mhz or better, would you really be satisfied with 250M per channel? I know I'm generally not doing that, but this is a theoretical question.For that particular instance, the sampling is 200% better for only 40% more $$. Same story for the hacked bandwidth potential (not that I care about that personally at this point). I will read that thread though. I obviously intend this to be a more informed decision than my first purchase.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 09:14:48 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 08:34:50 pmI'm just saying that I wouldn't trade a better response in the vertical controls for the row of buttons down the left side of my Rigol. I know which is more useful and which will waste more of my time.Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 08:34:50 pmIt depends on what you're looking at. If you're actually looking at four signals with 100MHz base frequencies then, no it's not enough.Then again, a 100Mhz oscilloscopeisn'tsuitable for doing that - you'll see four 100Mhz sine waves on screen but nothing much in the way of harmonics. In that scenario you should be looking at 300MHz+ oscilloscopes, maybe 500Mhz for real signal fidelity.Back in real life: I know I'm only going to look at signals in the tens of MHz range on my DS1054Z, maybe 50MHz tops. In that scenario 250M per channel is enough for me (it's 5 times the Nyquist limit, plenty for signal reconstruction).If we apply the same criteria to the Siglent then I don't believe the extra sample rate will make much real difference.5x Nyquist vs. 10x Nyquist? Not much difference, maybe a pixel here and there.(nb. I'm willing to look at some screenshots if anybody can demonstrate otherwise...)OTOH: If you're going to hack the Siglent to 200MHz and look at four simultaneous signals with 100MHz base frequenciesthenit will come into play (though maybe not as much as you might think - Nyquist theory works, bitches!)

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 09:31:05 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2018, 09:14:48 pmYou crack me up man. Reading the Siglent thread I see two big plusses in the Rigol's favor:1. the side buttons like you mentioned2. firmware update simplicityIn the Rigol you just dump the file on the USB and poop it in. The Siglent sounds like extra work for every update.That leaves me here:Rigol Pros:Physical side buttons/UI simplicityPriceFirmware update simplicityLaziness *(already on my bench)Siglent Pros:Higher multi-channel sampling1M FFT400VDC input (vs 300VDC) (yes, I know it doesn't matter, but a plus is a plus)Optional extras that aren't worth the money especially thanks to toys like the AD2I'll have to test the Windows remote software for the Rigol and see if I hate it or not. If it's okay I suppose that neutralizes the web server on the Siglent...not that I think I'd use either too much.

author: ttelectronic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 09:41:14 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 09:31:05 pmDSRemote is Linux based, but I find it a lot faster and more useful than the Windows tools by Rigol. Especially when exporting large amounts of data from the scope. I use a virtual box of linux to run it.https://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 09:50:40 pm
content: Quote from: ttelectronic on August 24, 2018, 09:41:14 pmYeah, the official Rigol software is 1Gb of garbage.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 09:53:32 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 09:31:05 pmFor the reasons (I tried to explain) above, I wouldn't get too hung up on that number if you're not planning on hacking it to 200MHz.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 09:57:40 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 09:31:05 pmUpdates are easy.The zip or rar is unpacked to find a changelog, instructions and the update. Pop the update onto a USB stick, insert into the scope and navigate to it and install.Done hundreds of them as I dispatch every unit with the latest FW. Only stuff that's been shipped after a new FW version is released needs this treatment.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 10:21:31 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 24, 2018, 09:57:40 pmI don't doubt that they're simple enough, but they require more effort/thought than Rigol. That's a point deduction.Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2018, 09:53:32 pmOh, I got what you said. But a plus is a plus is a plus. The feature is there, and the hackability is there. Technically that's two plusses. It's not as heavily weighing my choice as it was thanks to what you said.The biggest thing now that sways me against the Siglent is that even if I wanted only the AWG add-on, the price difference of the Siglent + the AWG add-on (without the BS "option" cost) is already enough to buy the AD2 with the BNC port package...which obviously is a better choice for me to have the Rigol + AD2 than just the Siglent + AWG only.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 10:45:17 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 10:21:31 pmHow so ?Do the Rigol updates come ready to be installed and not zipped ?If so, well they don't care about your data package and possible data cap.Just checked herehttp://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3and the site's as slow as a wet week to grab a piddle arsed little 1.8MB rar. Still minutes to go FFS.If it ever finishes I'll take a look inside it and check what comes with the FW......................still waiting FFS.Not a good first look !Pre-release, the X-E's had an optional online FW update facility that was dropped as some felt buyers would be scared off by an 'ET phone home' configuration but it was entirely user driven and made for FW updates to be totally zero hassle. I hope Siglent reinstates this capability and keeps it entirely user configurable.OK, finally downloaded and the rar contents structure is little different to anything I've ever seen from Siglent.I'm gunna call 'Myth busted' !

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 10:53:25 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 24, 2018, 10:45:17 pmNo myth. From your own description of the process, I'd have to go look for, and select the update files on the USB stick on the scope.On the Rigol you place the firmware in the root of the USB and it auto-detects the file and does the rest after asking you if you want to update. That's less effort.I don't really care one way or the other, that's not going to sway my decision that heavily.However, reading through that Siglent thread, a lot of people had issues with updating their firmware or OS. This supports the point in Rigol's favor more. Even if one update wasn't a PIA, the other might fail.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 10:58:59 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 10:53:25 pmSure, any instrument is exactly the same if you have an empty USB stick.The one I use has various folders for all Siglent FW and sub-folders as well so 'navigate' that I used previously is correct if your stick has nothing else on it.QuoteGuess how that's fixed: RTFM !

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 11:04:27 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 24, 2018, 10:58:59 pmnobody does that....actually, I did read (almost) the whole Rigol manual. That crap was long as hell.EDIT: I read a lot of the Siglent manual too. They're both equally boring.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 11:10:05 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 11:04:27 pmNah, the FW manual ! It comes in the FW rar/zip package and for an OS update it's a different install process to FW.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2018, 11:12:35 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 24, 2018, 11:10:05 pmOh, see, now thatismore effort.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 12:50:12 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 24, 2018, 11:12:35 pmSure but an OS update isnotan everyday occurrence and might only happen once in a products lifetime.If the bowls of the instrument are significantly improved then the effort to install a OS updateisworth it.The 4ch X-E OS update made major improvements to the webserver in particular.It was dead simple and only needed the update files in the root of the drive so to auto-install at boot.The most common error is to use a USB stick incompatible with the OS, hell even Dave struggled getting one seen with the new DS7000 he looked at. FAT32 and under 8Gb and there's generally never a problem.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 12:54:51 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 25, 2018, 12:50:12 amI replied to a thread about people having issues with USB sticks. The trick is to use "SD Card Formatter" utility (from sdcard.org) to format them (not the OS's formatting utility), and almost any USB stick will probably work. I'm using a 32GB USB3.1 stick with the 1054Z and it's working fine.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 05:04:09 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 24, 2018, 08:47:12 amThere's the answer I'd gave you, except electro-tools failed to answer my mails so I didn't even considered them. I wouldn't trust a seller who doesn't reply to quotes request to have a good support later. I totally forgotten about them.Temtec did answered my mail quickly but they weren't importing any new products, just selling whatever they had left. I remember a 3458A for $5k which as you can imagine is a great deal here but I'm not in the market for that right now, but it catch my eye.Sorry, but buying here makes no sense, support isn't great and prices either, this isn't just for your brand, don't take it personally, but for me, rigging up the lab for myself to be able to do what I know to do best I can't justify it. A bigger company, which needs someone to call and blame if something doesn't work, and have some benefits from buying locally, a university which needs to buy locally and doesn't have a choice, and a few other examples, will work with them, but for individuals setting up persona labs to be able to work I don't think so.About FFT length, as I had said many times, I pick the data from the PC and run the processing there, I can run a FFT with the full memory depth, so for me being able to capture 24M points with 1GSa/s with some advanced trigger options is the most important feature. I wouldn't go with cheaper with low memory depth, but more expensive with more processing power wouldn't make a big difference for me. Math function limitations are in all the scopes and a bit more in some particular case doesn't make or brake the deal for me. The refresh sending the data to the PC won't be as fast but I can live with that, the times for me catching a rare event aren't that often. Once I had a fast, once in a few month event but I wouldn't trust the Siglent to catch it either, troubleshooting that wasn't easy... Also, 200kwf/s using deep memory isn't a thing anyway.I wouldn't even bother in FW updates being easier or harder, is something you do once every few moth at most and be done with it. The key building blocks, as front end, ADC, etc. does bother me, the frond end is a win for Siglent as can go to a lower range better, you do have two ADCs but the same specs as the one in the Rigol, so for one channel are the same, where I would want to characterize a signal. I use as many channels as I have while debugging or troubleshooting but there usually I don't use the ADC to it's full spec. One strong point I see in the Rigol is the 24M for a single channel, I understand the Siglent goes up to 14M in a single channel, and in two channels they are closer 12M against 14M. Again, in this regard, to go to the PC, the Rigol wins. There are so many factors to consider, there is no a clear winner considering the price difference. Siglent is a more modern option with a lot of wins, even more as stand alone.Before someone start to attack me why didn't I went with a PC based one to start with, I do use a lot of functionality while using as stand alone, but not while pushing it to the limits. The Rigol makes a great fit for me so far, some people won't be so happy going to the PC and want everything in the one device.JS

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 07:09:10 am
content: Quote from: JS on August 25, 2018, 05:04:09 amWRT capturing data for PC processing.I'll leave this for those that aren't aware of it:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/open-source-lxi-tools-and-liblxi-v1-0-released-for-gnulinux/msg1394796/#msg1394796

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 08:24:20 am
content: Josh,Since you work on tube amps, for the $140+ difference between the scope you have and some of the others you're contemplating, you could get a high-voltage differential probe. Although most of the time you take measurements in tube amps relative to chassis ground, with a differential probe you can measure across any two points. I don't know how often that might be useful to you, but thought I'd mention it.Right now, I see one of the vendors on eBay selling MicSig 100MHz 1400V differential probes has them for $120:https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=micsig+dp10013&_sacat=0&_sop=15For audio work, the higher bit depth of the AD2 (14 bits) or dedicated USB-based equipment for audio analysis (16, 24 or more bits per sample) may be better suited. Of course, it also depends to what level of precision and granularity you're doing things like measuring distortion, S/N ratios, etc.However, even an old Rigol DS1052E and its FFT can enable you to see if your amp has less than a certain percentage of distortion by sending through a dual-tone test signal, one of which is at an amplitude that represents your desired distortion threshold and at a frequency that doesn't collide with the harmonics of the primary signal, as a visual marker.As with any technical buying decision, knowing your true requirements will help a lot to sift through all the possibilities. Otherwise, analysis paralysis is always lurking behind every spec sheet.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 12:23:39 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 25, 2018, 08:24:20 amThat is a great price for those probes. I have the same probes in a wishlist on Amazon for $159.Tube guitar amps is what I work on, and they always need distortion, even when they're supposed to be "clean." I'm not really interested in getting rid of distortion as much as looking at it to see characteristics and shape. The amps I make sound great, this is more for curiosity and self-education, with the potential to eventually shape that distortion differently. But more curiosity than anything else WRT to the FFT stuff.Actually, my biggest headache right now is chasing down a parasitic oscillation in a reverb circuit.Whichever scope can make that easier wins instantly.lol, analysis paralysis. That's funny, and accurate.Quote from: tautech on August 25, 2018, 07:09:10 amThat looks like another (small) plus for the Siglent. It comes back to exactly what I said about the Siglent being the newer computer. So there.But will there ever be an official LXI release for this? Is this 100% reliant on the github project? If that's the case then that's not a long-term, reliable solution.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 12:26:40 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 25, 2018, 08:24:20 amI do always measure to ground. This is something I don't understand being so new to scopes. Why would I want to measure across two points on a scope besides ground?

author: wpwrak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 12:50:11 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 25, 2018, 12:23:39 pmIt's often the other way around: Open Source can be extremely durable, since even when the original author(s) disappears or loses interest, you still have the code and can carry on if you want. "You" doesn't necessarily have to be you as a person, who may or may not have the motivation, skills, and resources to take over maintaining some project, but is the whole user community.Regarding the Siglent, you may also want to consider this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/open-source-instrument-firmware-project-104048/

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 12:55:09 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 25, 2018, 12:26:40 pmThink about a half-bridge driver where you want to measure the voltage on the base/gate versus the emitter/source.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 01:03:21 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 25, 2018, 12:55:09 pmNot in a simple tube guitar amp circuit. I could see that being useful in other circuits, but for me the question is specific to simple vintage tube guitar amps. Where would I benefit in a simple tube guitar amp circuit?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 01:31:30 pm
content: To be clear, this is the type of guitar amp circuit I build, and yes, I love heat-shrink tubing.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 01:40:51 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 25, 2018, 12:23:39 pmThe point is, the LXI/LAN speed.With the existing SCPI command set and the inbuilt webserver that includes the command set panel you can yank info from LAN port in close to real-time, or via the USB WiFi for that matter.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 02:18:13 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 25, 2018, 01:40:51 pmI get that, that's why it gets the point. The question is the real-world application of that in the near future, and especially for me personally. How useful will that point be?Rigol Pros:Physical side buttonsUI simplicityFirmware updates probably less buggy.Laziness *(already on my bench)PriceSiglent Pros:hackable to 200MhzHigher multi-channel sampling1M FFTNo side buttons = more screen space for waveformsLXI/LAN speed400VDC input (vs 300VDC) (yes, I know it doesn't matter, but a plus is a plus and mistakes happen)Optional extras that aren't worth the money especially thanks to toys like the AD2There's also software spectrum analyzers like spek.cc or friture.org that would probably save me the need for an AD2 if I ever want to bother with that...though the AD2 seems fun and has an AWG.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 02:25:33 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 25, 2018, 02:18:13 pmAn AWGANDa 14-bit oscilloscope in the same device. This combination allows you to generate frequency sweeps and plot the frequency response/harmonic distortion of things like amplifiers.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 02:38:23 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 25, 2018, 02:25:33 pmOh, I dig it, but for me it's a toy. I may buy it eventually, but I'm well aware of what it is when I do (a very nice toy). It, and the open-source SA software both negate the ridiculously over-priced add-ons for the Siglent.My daughter made me click that.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 06:38:33 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 25, 2018, 02:38:23 pmA "toy" that properly set up (ie. with suitable probes) can probably help you do your job better then either the Rigolorthe Siglent.It looks like they've been building up a nice catalog of accessories since I last checked it out, eg. take a look atthis bundle. It's not cheap, but very tempting. The BNC adapter gives you two-channel oscilloscope and two-channel signal generator.Price is relative though - that entire bundle costs less than just the logic analyzer upgrade for the Siglent.Oscilloscope bandwidth aside, it's alotof capability for the money. I wonder how electrically robust it is.Edit: They claim "robustness to withstand student use..."

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 06:59:42 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 25, 2018, 01:31:30 pmThanks for the example. It's helpful to understand what you're working on. It looks like you already have more than enough for your area of interest. I wouldn't look to spend any more. Use what you have, then you'll better know if and when you need more and what will fulfill that need.Heat shrink is a good thing. I've seen some mighty scary point-to-point constructions — it makes you wonder how the thing doesn't short out just breathing too hard.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 09:14:05 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 25, 2018, 06:38:33 pmI want a bench scope, and that isn't, so it's a no-go for general use as I have no desire to be stuck to a computer. I don't think it's expensive at all, and I actually already had that bundle bookmarked in case I do decide to buy that toy. A reliable scope is what I need, and for actual scopin' I don't think I would call that more reliable than either of the other models. It's also not USB isolated, so I would need to add that to the mix too.Quote from: bitseeker on August 25, 2018, 06:59:42 pmThanks, as I mentioned, I do believe they're both overkill.The thing that irks me is the "older tech" repeating in my head makes me feel unsatisfied with the Rigol - as silly as that is. The better processing and networking potential on the Siglent is very tempting...but I could find myself wanting to replace either one of these in a year or two, so...I hear you on the heat shrink, I've seen some serious nightmares. Some people's sloppiness can be bad enough, remove the board on a PTP build and it can get scary.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 10:36:24 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 25, 2018, 09:14:05 pmYeah, I know what you mean. I'd want a really fancy probe before I attach one to a tube amp.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 10:45:32 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 25, 2018, 10:36:24 pmAre you being sarcastic or do you mean because of the high voltage?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 10:59:30 pm
content: High voltage.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 11:13:07 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 25, 2018, 10:59:30 pmMost of my circuits peak around 350VDC. With my current probes (Pico TA131), the x10 covers 600V, so I think I'm okay there. Is there any reason I should be concerned in that scenario?I'm planning on getting some fixed x100 Cal Test CT2707 probes that do 1200V.................and I also have some differential probes bookmarked. I really don't want to bother with them though if they're not going benefit me in my simple(ish) tube circuits.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 11:37:36 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 25, 2018, 11:13:07 pmThere will be times when youcan'tplace a probe reference (gnd) lead where you want so don't discount needing a differential probe at some stage.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2018, 12:37:20 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 25, 2018, 11:37:36 pmI definitely hear that, that's why it's bookmarked. But my builds usually have ground points with good access, and 90% of the testing is probably off the output jack anyway.I gotta say one other point for the Siglent is the front panel design. I hate the appearance of the Rigol; it looks sloppy by comparison. Aesthetic matters, my day job is design.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2018, 01:12:18 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 26, 2018, 12:37:20 amIt's not about having access to a ground, is about needing to know the voltage between two points where neither of them is ground, like if you want to measure the voltage across a cathode and the grid of a cathode follower, to look at the bias while the signal is present. If you probe both in reference to ground which are swinging 20V at 100V from ground and you try to measure that signal for the time you subtracted them both in the math (AKA poors man differential probe) you are left with very little signal, you wanted to look for, as it was a small signal on top of a big common mode signal.JS

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2018, 01:21:42 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 25, 2018, 07:09:10 amI tried to post a response to that but tapatalk wouldn't let me do it... not in the last few days.The main thing on the answer was that seems obvious that more people is working on automated tests, as LXI brings a cheap and easy way even for every home lab to have some gear capable of running on that. Some people is leaving it pass by and I don't know why, because they are likely to be able to learn how and the ROI for that time will be pretty fast as a few measurements go by. Thermal profiles are often logged by hand in some experiments in my university, as the effect is slow enough that with a thermometer, a stop watch, paper and pencil you pretty much have your data 'logger' (sitting in a bench looking at the damn thing for way too long)JS

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2018, 04:58:37 am
content: Can a Siglent 100 MHz now be hacked to 200 MHz? I can't seem to find much about that.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2018, 09:02:33 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 26, 2018, 04:58:37 amPerhaps you forget this your own msg?Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 17, 2018, 06:50:42 amAll who have enough skills to do this as it should be doneand do carefully his homeworks can find all needed right information(and can also filter out possible bullshits). For avoid any hassle with this method just important rule is: First brain, then muscle.Follow these quoted msg's in they original threads and study these threads and possible related links there.Some tiny tests can find also here.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1623214/#msg1623214After this message read fully least next all msg's least up to msg #831There can find even some tests but perhaps it is better without further advertisements about this "feature". User need also understand what are pros andcons speciallybecause we do not have brickwall filter analog front end.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2018, 11:10:28 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on August 26, 2018, 09:02:33 amTotally itsy-bitsy...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2018, 02:07:54 pm
content: Quote from: JS on August 26, 2018, 01:12:18 amSure there are a few ways to measure floating potentials however there are times when you need the proper gear.Say a mains phase control high-side pair of reversed biased SCR's, gates elevated and driven by pulse xformers.Never did I think that my hobby of electronics would have me doing that stuff but once you have the gear and some knowledge it's not hard but it is dangerous and there must be no distractions. Careful work technique too, one hand in back pocket at all times when powered so to offer no electrical path across the body should you touch something hot.A UJT had failed and when replaced we had to adjust the set points so both SCR's were turning on at the same point in opposite curves of the mains sine wave so to share the load properly. Fun stuff and led me more into power electronics as my greatest interest coupled with simple digital control.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2018, 05:27:30 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 26, 2018, 02:07:54 pmSpeaking of having the proper gear, I'm surprised you never pointed out that the 1004X-E stuff is compatible with any Siglent AWG, and in any case besides the add-on it doesn't need the stupid $$$ option. For $20 less than that stupid AWG add-on, I can get the SDG805 which I assume should be more than enough for audio work (not that I need one any time soon, I'm content with my cheap Tenma audio generator for now).You gotta up your sales skillz bro.Rigol Pros:Physical side buttonsUI simplicityFirmware updatesprobablyless buggy.Laziness *(already on my bench)PriceSiglent Pros:hackable to 200MhzHigher multi-channel sampling1M FFTNo side buttons = more screen space for waveformsFront panel not as ugly (to me)LXI/LAN speed400VDC input (vs 300VDC) (yes, I know it doesn't matter, but a plus is a plus and mistakes happen)Optional extras that aren't worth the money especially thanks to toys like the AD2Compatible with Siglent standalone AWGs without the stupid option upgradeWorks with the $10 WiFi dongleI'm going to RMA the Rigol and try the Siglent out. If it's annoying or sucks, it also has a 30 day return policy.I hate to ask this because they're fugly and over-sized, but does anybody really believe the Instek scopes are more reliable for some reason than Rigol or Siglent? From watching Dave's tear-down videos I got the opposite impression, but I saw a comment that said otherwise so I thought I should ask. The only thing I do like about the comparable Instek is the individual vertical controls.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2018, 08:26:32 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 26, 2018, 05:27:30 pmThe GW Insteks are way less buggy compared to Rigol and Siglent especially when it comes to newly released equipment and if you find a bug it gets fixed quickly. So all in all the testing-before-releasing and service are better.The GW Instek oscilloscopes are also covered by a limited lifetime warranty which ends 5 years after GW Instek stops producing the model; so you get at least 5 years of warranty. I think it also shows the confidence GW Instek has in the quality of their products.I think the one Dave took apart is a pre-production model. In my GDS-2204E there is only one integrated board (without the add-on boards shown in Dave's video).

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2018, 09:26:49 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 26, 2018, 02:07:54 pmSorry if I didn't explained my self clear enough, I'm saying a differential prpbes becomes necessary pretty fast, as you can only reject so much with a poors man one, which might be fine for a CM noise the same level of the NM signal. Once the CM becomes bigger than the NM you kind of need a differential probe and if the CM is much grater than the signal you want an isolation probe.JS

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2018, 09:34:21 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 26, 2018, 05:27:30 pmI don't think I've ever deliberated as much for anything... school, career, spouse, that capital murder case I sat on a jury for...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2018, 10:24:30 pm
content: Quote from: BillB on August 26, 2018, 09:34:21 pmOh my, you should see the stacks of research and documentation I've produced to decide on some things.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 01:19:53 am
content: Quote from: BillB on August 26, 2018, 09:34:21 pmWell, it was both entertaining and educational for me.The stupid thing is I had the SDS1202X-E on my wishlist on Amazon for about year, and I didn't buy it because 1. I had no idea if it was any good/good enough for my needs, and 2. the ad said "200 mhz" and I thought anybody selling an oscilloscope should know the difference between mHz and MHz.Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 26, 2018, 10:24:30 pmThis is more public, but less involved than my recent hunt for camera lenses. I bought, tested, and returned a lot (nobody cares about quality anymore, even in the $1K price range)...finally settled on a couple nice ones.Quote from: nctnico on August 26, 2018, 08:26:32 pmThat's interesting about the updates, but I'm guessing the difference between your scope and the one in Dave's video is that your scope costs twice as much. I'm not looking to be anywhere near that price range. If I was spending that much I'd probably get stuck buying an R&S just because they're sexy.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 01:56:28 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 26, 2018, 05:27:30 pmLooking forward to reading your comparison after you've had a little time with the Siglent.QuoteI've heard both sides on that one — no surprise, huh. There's no perfect scope (nor anything else, practically). I also like the individual vertical controls (very much), but I had already gotten the 1054Z before that Instek was available. I don't regret my purchase, but still enjoy seeing the new things coming out.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 03:20:56 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 27, 2018, 01:19:53 amBe patience with the Siglent, from what I've read it's a bit more hard to get used to... But you should get used to it in the end and have more functionality into it. If you don't mind the extra $$ I think it clearly is the winner here.Funny you mention camera lenses, I'm not a even a hobbyist on that but I came across a few and I learned how to properly use a DSLR. I had a GF who had a T4i kit with a 18-135 lens, it was quite nice and the lens hold itself pretty nicely too, against some other more professional ones I've seen. Later my sister decided to get one but she didn't know a thing about them, I ended buying a T3i with the same kit lens to start with. Funny surprise the quality difference between those two lenses, my sister's was much harder to focus (1/4 turn against a much longer of the other ) and it wouldn't hold focus while you zoom in and out as the T4i one did, really hard to get good focus with the lens wide open. That's one that doesn't appear on spec sheet either, even after knowing the difference I haven't seen any difference in the specs, models or branding on publications, hard to know if I needed to buy another one now. Right now my sister's is living with a professional photographer who has mostly canon gear so her lens went to the shelf and he uses her camera body with a wide range of lenses she has at her disposal.Good luck with the other one and remember to come back to this thread to put your findings out. I've seen a lot of reviews about this two but not a single comparison in your actual position trying to decide between both and having both to use for a while and decide.JS

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 03:35:21 am
content: Quote from: JS on August 27, 2018, 03:20:56 amThanks, I'll definitely post my opinion once I form one. I'm not too worried about figuring it out. It has an "auto set" button just like the Rigol.The features where the Rigol was lacking like the Siglent's better FFT, or the advanced network stuff should be interesting.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 03:52:08 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 25, 2018, 08:24:20 amI just ordered one for $115 (best offer). Hopefully the thing works well. Thanks for the ebay idea, saved me $45 vs. the same thing I was looking at on Amazon.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 04:56:45 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 27, 2018, 03:35:21 amThe first thing I did with my Rigol out of the box was disable that function, it only works to mess the measurements you were making by missing a button. They even made it big and easy to press right at the top of the instrument, between the clear and run buttons you press when you want to repeat the same measurementQuoteYou won't see the real differences on every day use between the two, there are things you can make with one that you can with the other, but they are few and very specific. FFT will show a difference, but how often do you actually need the difference between both is not clear. You could probably set up a few tests to try the things you can do with the new one, like probing the data lines in your car, or some low level measurements.In any case, good luck with it and enjoy it! Now my head hurts for actually going and hitting the wall with it as you made me remember the auto button on scopes... Don't come with the UNDO option, not good enough for me, just leave the auto button on a hidden place, like the tinny recessed ones you hit with a sharp point, and if you want a big sign right next to it and a blinking arrow so a newbie can find it, but nobody can hit it accidentally. You will always have a probe next to you to press it if you need it.JS

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 05:15:04 am
content: Quote from: JS on August 27, 2018, 04:56:45 amX-E have a Autoset Undo !My demo's out ATM or I'd put up a screenshot of it.From another threadRandom settingsAutoset on above

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 06:34:52 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 27, 2018, 05:15:04 amI meant don't mention, or don't even come on. The undo button is only there for a single screen, if I go with the next button press as I already knew I was trying to capture again I'd ve screwed. I know why they put it, I just can't live with it. The dissable option is needed as I'm not the only who thinks this, but still annoys me there is one of the most accessible buttons in the thing I can't use for anything else. Would be nice to be AUTO as default but I can assign whatever quick access I want, like the record\segmented memory mode in the Rigol which is pretty well hidden.JS

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 06:48:05 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 27, 2018, 03:52:08 amSure thing. Was that from the same vendor that had it discounted to $119 (looks like it went up a bit)? It sure is a good price. I'm tempted to get one, but I already have anHVP-70(got it before Micsig released theirs).

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 06:57:11 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 27, 2018, 05:15:04 amSo does DS1000Z...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 07:42:53 am
content: Quote from: JS on August 27, 2018, 06:34:52 amI get exactly where you're coming from as like you, I despise Autoset too.I never use the damned thing as IMHO it holds the user back from learning how to properly 'drive' a scope.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 08:10:26 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 27, 2018, 07:42:53 amWhat other want to learn is a bit over me, I always suggests not to use it. But for my own use, let's say the function did worked as expected and shows me a good signal, I have to go and check every single parameter because I don't know what I'm looking at, so it takes me longer and I understand less than doing it myself. There are hard to trigger signals, and it could help, but it usually doesn't anyway as hard to trigger signals are harder for the auto function as well...Worst thing still is the big USELESS button.JS

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 08:29:43 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 27, 2018, 01:19:53 amThe one I have has a bigger screen but the GDS1054B can be hacked nowadays. I don't know if that includes a higher bandwidth but it gives you a pretty complete scope for a reasonable price.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 08:46:51 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 27, 2018, 05:15:04 amThe Rigol has that, too:(neener neener)One good thing on the Rigol is that after you press it you get a secondary menu that allows you to choose another step on the process, eg. zoom in on a single rising edge - see above.Quote from: JS on August 27, 2018, 04:56:45 amOh,NOWthey come out of the woodwork.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 09:15:18 am
content: Quote from: JS on August 27, 2018, 08:10:26 amHow is that faster/easier than looking at three numbers on screen?Sounds like lack of practice to me.nb. I almost never use it either, I'm just saying that doesn't sound like a good reason.It certainly does cause a hiccup, a discontinuity or whatever you want to call it, in the mental process. I'm not sure if that's because it locks up the scope for two seconds while it thinks about it whereas with knobs you'd already be in there twiddling.I think the problem is it changes several parameters at once. Maybe it should be divided into auto-vertical and auto-horizontal. It would be nice to have very fine control over it to find a sweet spot.(ormaybeit's useful as-is and we all need just to practice more.)

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 10:15:01 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 27, 2018, 09:15:18 amIt's not just three I think, as it could change the coupling, the adquisition, the memory depth, the display config, the whole trigger setup, and probably a few more and not all of them are displayed in the main screen at first. And not knowing all of those could trick you to belive whats in the display.Also not every scope you come across comes to the same conclusion, or will behave the same way.I decide each one of those parameters based on a few factors, and the process lends me to know what I'm looking at. For instance, using high rea or average is only fine if I first use normal adquisition and all looks fine as averaging will show a better picture and not hide any important information.JS

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 10:37:11 am
content: Quote from: JS on August 27, 2018, 10:15:01 amYes, I know, I meant how many things you need to look at to re-orient yourself - voltage, frequency, coupling, what else?(and on a Rigol you can tell it not to change the coupling)

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 12:15:22 pm
content: Maybe it's just laziness, but I like hitting the autoset button. Yes, it's annoying waiting the 1 or 2 seconds while it's frozen, but it's less annoying than twiddling 3 knobs for 10 to 20 seconds to come to the same conclusion. Or maybe that's fun? Once it's set you can still twiddle the knobs to adjust the display or settings beyond that.Pressing Storage then Default sets everything back to default on the Rigol if you're worried about the auto settings left over, and there's other undos also. But that wasn't an issue for my basic uses. I wasn't doing math functions or anything like that, just watching sine waves pooping around with it. The autoset seemed to work pretty well, even the triggering worked pretty well with some tricky stuff.It couldn't freeze everything, but neither could I. Sometimes I had to hit the Stop button to print the ugliness I was seeing with the parasitic I'll hopefully eventually kill.

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 12:27:37 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 27, 2018, 06:48:05 am$115 !? That's a great price. There are a few review threads of it floating around here somewhere. It's probably more like a 60MHz probe, but for the price, it's a nice little unit.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 12:37:01 pm
content: Quote from: BillB on August 27, 2018, 12:27:37 pmHaha, yeah, not too bad. I started my offer at $80.For my needs, 60Mhz is plenty. I could probably leave the 20Mhz bandwidth limit on and be fine. Maybe I should? I already got the tracking number, they ship pretty quick it seems. I'm in MA, and it's coming from NJ, so it'll probably be here in a day or two...before I even have a new scope to play with.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 03:37:06 pm
content: Analog front end signal noise is also some diference between Rigol and Siglent.These tests are comparable as much as possible.(Note difference between Siglent Stdev and Rigol RMS (Rigol do not have Stdev so only way is use RMS and it include of course also DC offset)Here Rigol is 100MHz BW and Siglent is 200MHz. If we reduce Siglent BW to 100MHz it reduce noise level around 3dB. As can see Siglent have lot of less noise even when it have double bandwidth.Siglent have full resolution 500uV/div and Rigol have 5mV/div full vertical resolution.With 10x probe it mean that highest sensitivity with full vertical resolution with Rigol is 50mV/div and with Siglent 5mV/div.Other thing is that Rigol use highly decimated data for measurements. (also it map all samples to display, example here all 7Msample is mapped to display memory without decimation also for better intensity gradation so that it is dependent about one wfm data density on display and also sequential overlayed traces specially when use settings what give more wfm/s speed but less horizontal scrunch)In this image Siglent can measure horizontally using full 1ns resolution.But Rigol time resolution is perhaps roughly something like 10000 times less. (somewhere in forum is old thread where is exact data)Of course all depends user needs what are important things but differencies between SDS1000X-E and DS1000Z is really huge if start looking all things. Is it even fair to compare so different things, even if some main parameters are same. What are same. Max 1GSa/s, 7" display, 4 channels and shared vertical controls. Siglent is more expensive, yes. And it is LOT of more if look its power as tool.But only IF user need. Of course if example this Rigol 1kZ is more than enough for user needs then why pay more. It is still today lot of scope with its price!But then, there is possible also things what user can not think before he find how useful some features are if he . Just example always background working waveform history buffer. Of course it is perhaps widely underestimated because most have never used this kind of feature and then no one talk about it - how talk things what do not have and/or know. Because most of scopes (specially low end scopes) do not have it at all or have some nearly useless "frame recorder" without full raw acquisition data.I think difference is tiny bit more than negligible.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 04:19:12 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on August 27, 2018, 03:37:06 pmThis is exactly right. This is a big motivator for me in purchasing the Siglent over the Rigol. A lot of people point out that the Siglent costs 40% more but I see 3 important factors:1. Neither one of them are that expensive as oscilloscopes go. Not at all.2. In some cases the Siglent performs 200% better than the Rigol.3. It will cost me much less to buy the Siglent now, than it would to keep the Rigol, be disappointed by it, and then need to buy the Siglent or something else superior to the Rigol anyway. ("buy cheap, buy twice")If it turns out I hate the Siglent, I can return it, but that's not likely.If it turns out I never benefit from any of the better performance or features, oh well, but that's not likely either.Now the only problem is most dealers seem to be out of stock.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 05:29:11 pm
content: It's not "unknown" at all. The Rigol doesallcalculations, serial decodes, etc., based on the block of 1200 samples that's currently displayed on screen (squished into 600 pixels). You want a better answer? Zoom in on the area of interest (or press 'auto').PS: Any RMS calculation of non-bandwidth-limited white noise is always a bit 'suspicious' and a very suspect way to demonstrate a 'scopes supposed superiority. The VPP number is the one to focus on.1.3mV of noise @1GHz with the probe in 1x mode? Turn on the bandwidth limiter, that's what it's for.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 08:14:47 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 27, 2018, 05:29:11 pm1) Perhaps Keysight engineers are wrong and you are right? But here is Keysight:Quote2)1GHzI still believe that Rigol have 100MHz "gaussian like" BW (if you understand how BW affect noise...) and here compared with 200MHz BW Siglent what also can calculate RMS and it do it right. (here used Stdev for remove possible DC offset for get noise RMS)Of course we can also compare with more narrow BW. But if I need 100MHz scope for measurements I need know how it works with 100MHz. If I measure unrepetitive 1Hz square wave what have 4ns risetime I can not reduce BW. I need full 100 MHz BW or better if more. So simple.Of course when want less noise and IF can reduce BW then just reduce BW.Also it is not so important what are these absolute values... but as you can see there is two scope face to face and using enough same setup. They are comparable. You can also see peak to peak just with eyes from screen image if you want and it is big.Of course there is lot of differences. This is only just one.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 09:02:02 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 27, 2018, 05:29:11 pmDo you think that's good to use in general for audio stuff? Is there any reason I would need to see anything above 20Mhz probing a tube amp? Is that a dumb question?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 10:52:32 pm
content: It doesn't matter whether you turn the BW limit on or off because the Rigol 1000Z is noisy like hell. The more recent oscilloscopes from GW Instek, MicSig and Siglent use a very low noise analog front-end and ADC (IIRC they all use the same so their performance when it comes to noise is comparable).

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 11:06:35 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 27, 2018, 10:52:32 pmI'm returning the Rigol. I'll have a Siglent on Saturday. So what then?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 06:13:04 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 27, 2018, 10:52:32 pmYes, nearly all are better than this Rigol 1kZ if think its front end signal noise. Example Owon, GoodWill (GWI), Siglent, MicSiglent, etc...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 07:25:29 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 27, 2018, 09:02:02 pmWith 10x probe it's not really needed.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 07:56:31 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on August 27, 2018, 08:14:47 pm1) The Rigol measurement method isn't "unknown" as you claim. Just zoom in on the signal and you'll get a better (and much lower!) number.It's not difficult to do (in fact it's quite natural to do this when you're working with a signal - you tend to zoom in to look at it).The only thing 'suspicious' about those measurements was subtracting 3dB from the Siglent's noise level just because you felt like it. Noise is noise, the VPP of the noise iswhat people see on screen, not the RMS.The "apparent" noise also depends on the 'scope settings, display brightness, display persistance, sample rate, number of channels, etc. If you watch this video at around the 7:30 mark you can see Dave change the (apparent) noise levels by changing the memory depth:

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 08:54:57 am
content: Different series, different processor, older model.Good to see you watching videos about Siglents.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 08:58:58 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 28, 2018, 08:54:57 amStill relevent to making claims about "noise" levels.Quote from: tautech on August 28, 2018, 08:54:57 amRigol will soon have their new ASIC in a low-end model, so... meh.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 09:00:27 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 28, 2018, 07:56:31 amStill it looks like you do not understand that there in image was two oscilloscopes with as same situation and settings as can. These can compare. No need look measurements results as all. And Siglent measurement level can see in image. There is not any 3dB subtraction.Onlöy what I tell was that BW difference is 1:2 and you know (or then you do not know) where from this 3dB come.Also I have knowledge and experience well enough for claim around 3dB noise level rise when turn Siglent 100MHz to 200MHz BW. Not of course exatly due to fact that there is also some noise components what are not related to analog side BW. 3dB tip was only from common 10 Log(200 /100)If we compare Rigol and Siglent then take 100MHz Rigol and 100MHz Siglent and then Siglent show even less noise.If you do not believe it is your own problem.Here compared same Siglent scope with 100MHz BW and 200MHz100MHz out from boxThis new test have same settings so they are quite highly comparable and also same individual scope.Same individual scope mod to 200MHzAs can see theory and practice is as same as it can be. (because there is also other things related to noise)If we look how much it rise and take randomly example CH4. Level (Vrms1) rise 3.14dBAnd if we look how our BW shape and BW width change, it can say that it is just as expected.1. V Stdev = V rms - possible DC offsetDifferent scopes are difficult to compare if look noise p-p because then we need collect same amount of data for measurement and sorry but it looks like with Rigol effective amount of measured data points are really low compared to Siglent due to slower wfm/s in faster times and with slow time bases highly decimated data points. With random gaussian distribute noise this is very important. Probability for catch highest p-p values with Rigol is really low if compare Siglent. If we compare random noise p-p we need collect and analyze same amount of measured data. Example here previously as you told Rigol use 1200 points for measurements. And in this image prevciously where was Rigol and Siglent this Siglent use 7M points. If with this setting turn p-p measure on ... well Rigol tell p-p from random noise using 5800 times less data. Of course propbability to find rare highes peaks rise lot of.This is why we need compare apples to apples and not apple to shoe.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 09:58:51 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on August 28, 2018, 09:00:27 amI know where it came from, I'm just saying that it shouldn't be "compensated" or reduced in any way because of $THEORY$.The noise you see on screen is going to be there every time you look at a signal,even if a different brand of oscilloscope has less bandwidth than yours(!)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 10:16:49 am
content: FWIW the displayed RMS value will halve (approximately) if you zoom in on the Rigol. This halved value is a more correct representation of the noise.I have two problems with the comparison above, they are:a) Not knowing (or wilfully misrepresenting) how Rigols work, andb) "Compensating" the Siglent down by 3dB (because, hey, why not?)Don't get me wrong: I believe the Siglent probably has a lower noise than the Rigol (but then it ought to, it costs more).I'm just questioning the data being presented here and trying to point out that trying to measure it is almost impossible. If you watch Dave's video I posted above you can clearly see he's not willing to make a definitive statement because it depends on a lot of variables.PS: The Rigol makes no claims to having a 500uV range. A morerealisticcomparison would be the visible noise with them both on their lowest range, ie. Siglent on 500uV and the Rigol on 1mV. That's the noise that people interested in those ranges are actually going to see (in real life!) whenever they look at a signal.Define your requirements: If youneed500uV then buy a Siglent (or better... eg. a 10 bit R&S).I know we're all volt-heads around here but for most people/jobs, 1mV of noise (eg. Rigol) isn't a problem.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 12:42:53 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 28, 2018, 08:58:58 amDo you have any specifics about this? Hopefully they have a new design for the front panel too.I think both companies are in a funny position.Only Rigol's highest-end scopes are relatively new (from what I could see), and they still don't have a good front panel design. I hate the arbitrary, asymmetrical goofy outlines. Looks better than Instek, but that's a low bar.It also seems like only the SDS1004X-E series is relatively new from Siglent, and everything higher-end is trailing behind. I like the look, larger screens, and individual vertical controls of some of the higher-end Siglent models. But why would I spend 4 times as much money for less scope ability than 1104X-E? Yes, I know there's higher bandwidth and sampling available, but the rest of the scope needs to catch up.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 12:56:42 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 28, 2018, 12:42:53 pmObviously not. No company leaks information like that.(not until a few weeks before launch).Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 28, 2018, 12:42:53 pmMeh. You probably wouldn't notice it after a day of use.Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 28, 2018, 12:42:53 pmSiglent has been investing in the low-range (to compete with the DS1054Z, which has made Rigol atonof money) while Rigol has been investing in the the mid-range.The situation should flip around now the respective new models have been launched. Let's see if Rigol startes dropping some hints a few weeks from now.(to make anybody who's thinking of going from DS1000Z to SDS1000X-E wait a while before deciding)

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 01:31:08 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 28, 2018, 12:56:42 pmSo you're speculating?Quote from: Fungus on August 28, 2018, 12:56:42 pmI had the DS1054Z for 3 weeks. I noticed it every single time I looked at it. I hated the design. It annoys me. My primary job is web/graphic design; I can't help but notice that stuff. It drives me batty when designs are that bad. The Instek also seems like a better choice than the 1054Z, but I simply won't put it on my bench because I can't look at it.Quote from: Fungus on August 28, 2018, 12:56:42 pmGiven the business model (from most of these companies) of releasing the scopes and letting the customers do the debugging, I think I'll pass. It'll be a minimum of a year before any new scopes are reliable at all.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 01:56:43 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 28, 2018, 01:31:08 pmIs the Siglent reallythatmuch better?Maybe you should get a Micsig tBook or something.I assume you won't want the optional fugly rubber frame but you can even hide the thing away and use it via your phone.Prices for 4-channel, 100MHz are comparable to the Siglent.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 02:03:44 pm
content: It's funny, because I actually quite like the design of the DS1054Z and loathe that of the Siglent. The oval channel selection buttons drive me nuts. It's completely out of tune with the rest of the design.Admittedly, Rigol jumped the shark on some of the newer designs that followed the same basic idea of the DS1054Z. Regardless, there's no accounting for taste. There's plenty of professionally designed junk around to prove that once and for all.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 02:06:37 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 28, 2018, 01:56:43 pmThe Siglentisthat much better. It looks boring, but it isn't hideous. It also looks like the front panel graphic overlay is detachable, so I'm going to try popping it out, scanning it, and designing my own overlay if I decide I like the scope.I considered the MicSig, but the reviews for the model in the same price range said the MicSig was slow, and the screen was laggy. So, no thanks on that one. I love the idea of the touchscreen, but the form factor isn't more convenient for me than the bench scopes. It would actually be a hindrance.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 02:12:26 pm
content: I don't get why design is so important. As long as the user interface is not cluttered and easy to use all is well. IMHO it is way more important a tool does a good job.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 02:14:15 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 28, 2018, 02:03:44 pmAbsolutely, everybody has their own taste. I agree, the ovals are a little weird.But compare the X/Y control layouts. Siglent has obvious boxes with grey backgrounds, clearly outlining each section. Rigol uses awkward, asymmetrical lines that make no sense at all, and aren't clearly visible.Obviously I don't think the Siglent is perfect since I want to make my own version of the overlay, but I don't hate it. I could live with it. The Rigol looks stupidto me.This is all superficial, but it's something these companies should pay attention to. R&S seems to get this right. The RTB2004, for example, is a great looking scope.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 02:16:06 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 28, 2018, 01:31:08 pmI also think Rigol does have something new comming up, such company might started working in a new asic few years ago, knowing the ds1000z would need replacement at some point, now there are a few clues pointing the release date is close. Other than the x-e competiton, might be an extra reason for them to drop the prize and release options for free, they mastered the market, the options alone already bring it pretty close to the siglent and the price was already differentiating at about $100 or 25%. Quite a few years have passed for them to be in time to release a new one and as said, the market is getting more competitive so they're likely to lunch as soon as it feels ready.I don't mind the looks, what really bothers me is the two blue channels, like there were not other colors around...About the debugging, I'd expect any new gear to have some problems, the important fact is what they do with them. Rigol has prooven to be very proactive solving the issues, upgrading firmware and tweaking stuff. Waiting a year might be good if you don't want to find yourself in that trend, but a shorter period should be enough so any major HW problems are solved so you don't get in a callback or have a defective unit with lower specs than intended.JS

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 02:17:09 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 28, 2018, 02:12:26 pmTo each their own. I'm a designer by trade, I can't look at bad designs without it bothering me. You're right that the tool needs to do a good job as the highest priority. That doesn't mean there aren't other things to consider.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 02:22:26 pm
content: Quote from: JS on August 28, 2018, 02:16:06 pmI'm not disagreeing that it's likely they'll release something soon, but it's still speculation at this point. I wouldhopethey do.lol, maybe they just love blue. The next model will feature 4 shades of blue.I have no interest in being part of their debugging process unless I'm being compensated for it. It's as simple as that. If they gave me a unit for free, then I'd use it and be part of that process. There's no way on Earth I would pay them to do their debugging work for them. Not gonna happen.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 02:29:19 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 28, 2018, 02:03:44 pmThe new Rigol 7000 has probably gone too far with its blue backlights and stuff but the DS1054Z seems about right to me. Test gear isn't supposed to be a fashion statement.The Instek is fugly, yes.The Siglent is no beauty. It has the same oversized dark screen bezel as the Instek (trying to make the screen look bigger than it is?). The grey panels on the front are horrible, IMHO - something about the title bars being the wrong color and notquitetall enough for the title text.Black text on grey backgrounds is a big eww to me.Pointlessly colored buttons thatseemlike they belong to one of the channels (ie. 'print' and 'default')? Who chose those? Do they have any idea what "color coding" is?Whatever the reasons are for choosing Siglent over Rigol I wouldn't say "looks" are one of them.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 02:32:36 pm
content: Quote from: JS on August 28, 2018, 02:16:06 pmThere's no way they would design that ASIC without planning for a low-end version, not after the success of the DS1054Z (which must have made them alotof money - they basically created a whole new market with it).

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 02:59:20 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 28, 2018, 02:29:19 pmTo each their own regarding aesthetic, but that bezel statement simply isn't true. The bezels between the GDS-1004B and the SDS1004X-E series are nothing alike. The size, layout, and proportion of the Instek actually make the screen look much smaller by comparison even though they're all the same viewable size screen. The Siglent's black bezel covers the non-viewable area where the Instek doesn't cover any of the non-viewable area. The Instek implies a larger viewable area than it has; the bezel on the Siglent assures it isn't implying anything.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 03:09:20 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 28, 2018, 02:32:36 pmI think you are saying nthe same thing I do... I think they will aim to be the mkst prize competitive option in the market, as they did at the point, with a full featured scope for cheap, with all the extra features the 1000z is missing but likely cheat in the non paper specs, as noise, as theh did at the time.JS

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 03:16:33 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 28, 2018, 02:14:15 pmI must admit I'm quite partial to the angular design of the DS1054Z. It's a little less boring than just the same plain boxes and in this case it seems to work quite well without any excessively strange parts that plague similar designs of the same manufacturer. That being said, the DS1054Z isn't know for its sophisticated UX. It's a bottom of the barrel bang for buck device and rough edges are to be expected. Siglent doesn't seem to be much different, generally speaking.From the perspective of of the commercial side of it I think the design of the DS1054Z been a raving success. When the DS1054Z was introduced Rigol was gaining more fame quickly but not quite as well known as they are today. The distinct look has massively contributed to the succes of this model and the wider brand. It has given Rigol a face and is instantly recognizable, which is invaluable when you're trying to build a brand.I agree the new R&S scopes are very nicely designed. Their other designs tended to be very well laid out but excessively boring boxes, but the new oscilloscopes have a lot of aesthetic appeal.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 03:38:30 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 28, 2018, 03:16:33 pmI think it had little to do with the design, and everything to do with the complete lack of competition in a market they basically invented. No doubt about it, they're perty smart.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 03:42:56 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 28, 2018, 03:38:30 pmI think both play a major role in the success. I don't think it would have been the icon it's now if it would have been generically mundane or butt ugly to most.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 03:44:31 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 28, 2018, 08:58:58 amUsing off-the-shelve parts will be cheaper in a low end oscilloscope so no way Rigol will go this route. I don't think Rigol will come up with a replacement for the DS1000Z any time soon. It still flies off the shelves so why would they?Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 28, 2018, 03:16:33 pmI think you have a point here. Rigol's front panel design does set them apart.Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 28, 2018, 03:38:30 pmRigol didn't invent the low end market! There have been cheap oscilloscopes for decades.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 04:12:00 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 28, 2018, 03:44:31 pmSeriously? I'm not talking about the garbage low-end market. I'm talking about the quality, entry-level scope market. There was nothing of that level of quality, in that price range before. Period. Hell, if you're going back decades, you can barely even compare the high-end scopes from 10 or 20 years ago against it, even with the 1054Z's faults. I tried. I looked at high-end scopes on the used markets, and most were still more expensive used, andpatheticon paper by comparison. Hell, I found a FRONT PANEL for one lame-by-comparison scope for more $$$ than the Rigol.I'm not specifically a fan of either brand, nor do I have reason for bias, like some of our friends here.I don't care at all about the relatively small price difference, so for me the Siglent wins this round (for now - we'll see how I feel when I have the new scope in hand). A year or two from now, once their next-gen scope is stable, Rigol will possibly win the next round (again). That's how honest competition works.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 04:48:05 pm
content: I am just getting into tube amps, so I can work on my old Fender guitar amps. I have not been at this long enough to speak from experience, but i have read a lot and the consensus seems to be that a basic low BW analog scope is the tool for the job. I can see wanting a digital scope, I am going to get one myself, but I bought a couple old Teks first. I am interested to find out if an analog scope shows a better picture of tube amp signals, or whether a basic one is just adequate and cheaper. For now my AD2 gets me by on the digital front while I watch the 4 channel digital market grow.Has anyone seen a compsarison of the Siglent & Rigol vs the GDS-1054B? I really like the 4 individual channel knobs and I would really like HDMI or VGA output but that gets into another price bracket.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 04:52:18 pm
content: Quote from: Old Printer on August 28, 2018, 04:48:05 pmAdequate and cheaper is the answer. You can do most stuff for a tube guitar amp on a $100 used scope...assuming it's calibrated and fully operational.I'm a doofus and like fancier things, that's why I'm looking at the DSOs...that and the other electronics stuff I'll potentially use it for.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 07:01:08 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 28, 2018, 04:12:00 pmSure there was. You make it look like the Rigol DS1000Z has set some kind of standard but you are forgetting that:1) The Rigol DS1000Z isn't exactly a very good oscilloscope when looking at performance & features and it has taken years to get all the bugs fixed.2) There are and have been other oscilloscopes from various manufacturers which also sell / sold very well into the entry level market.3) When everyone was still working with analog oscilloscopes you could buy cheap low end analog oscilloscope as well. The only thing that changed is that technology has improved.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 07:40:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 28, 2018, 07:01:08 pmI believe you're joking now.1) Include price in that equation, and you've had zero competition, literally until now.2) None of them with the specs of the Rigol.Price Point + Technology Level = Niche Market.Cornered from 2014 to 2018. I'm guessing they're still dominating that market for now.3) Yes, the tech has improved. That's the point. High or low-end, most of those scopes you refer to can't keep up with the entry-level Rigol from 2014.You can still buy cheap low-end analog scopes. That's not the point. They're not as good, and they never were! You can make biased statements about the poor quality and performance of the Rigol all day long, but you prove nothing with generalized baseless claims. Obviously the 2014 $350 scope's front-end isn't going to be as clean as a current production $12,000 scope's front-end. That's a pointless comparison. Even comparing it to a newer $500 scope's front-end, you should expect the newer, more expensive scope to be cleaner. This seems like it should be obvious.This, by the way, coming from somebody who returned his Rigol to buy a Siglent, because I believe it to be superior. That doesn't mean the Rigol doesn't have its strengths, and that doesn't change the past 4 years of the Rigol's dominance in its niche.

author: SMB784
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 08:25:46 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 28, 2018, 07:40:04 pmYou've made a solid decision based on your specific needs and the known facts about your instrument of choice. Rest assured that you have made the right choice, and I'm certain that device will serve you well for many years.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 08:49:28 pm
content: Quote from: Old Printer on August 28, 2018, 04:48:05 pmDon't thinks one has been done yet.WRT a video output, the 4ch X-E's fast LAN and WiFi performance is such the inbuilt webserver provides great remote display performance. Some demonstration of this can be see in Jason's video starting from here:https://youtu.be/Cxh_Liay09E?t=52

author: wpwrak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 09:29:15 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 28, 2018, 07:01:08 pmFor example the Rigol DS1000CD/D/E series: 1 GSa/s (this is still the same in the entry-level segment today), 1 MSa memory (as one would expect, this has gone up since, 12/24 MSa for the DS1000Z). Decent enough build quality and came with borderline (*) decent PC connectivity (USB), while others had that as an option, RS232, or not at all. (* at least in the 1000CD, it's very slow. I suspect there is a UART-USB translation in the scope.)CD and D also has digital channels, though at least the CD had so poor signal integrity that you had to be quite desperate in order to try to use it. (I have an 1102CD, which has now been replaced by the Siglent 1104X-E.)All these had only two analog channels. There was also a four-channel 1000B series, but with short capture memory. The main new features (for the low-cost segment) of the 1000Z were to combine four analog channels with long memory, and to add Ethernet. So it's really just an evolution, but one that hit a sweet spot. And of course the ability to unlock expensive options for free made it incredibly attractive. I think this may have been the real killer feature.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 11:01:42 pm
content: Quote from: wpwrak on August 28, 2018, 09:29:15 pmRight. Evolution that created a niche. None of those models compare to the 1000Z. They were 2ch not 4, none had close to the memory even without the unlocks. Throw all the unlockable features including deeper memory into the mix, and there was even less competition. I think that puts the competition in a negative somehow.Now the main direct competitor is the Instek 1054B, which is a little better on paper, and has the added benefit of separate vertical controls. For a few bucks more the Siglent beats them both on paper. That's evolution and competition within the same niche.I mean, look at Dave's videos. Every time he's torn down a new scope anywhere near that price, he had to compare it to, or comment about the 1054Z.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2018, 02:19:29 am
content: I finally bought an x100 probe. If anybody else is looking for one, I got the BK Precision PR2000B (2kV 200MHz) on Amazon for $48. They're over $100 everywhere else I looked. And they're red!

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2018, 03:14:22 am
content: Saweet!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2018, 07:44:33 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 28, 2018, 03:44:31 pmSure, and there were automobilesbeforethe Ford model T...

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2018, 07:55:52 am
content: As a side question. How is the noise on the new Rigol DS7000 series? This is much lower han lower Rigol series and Siglent?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2018, 09:52:56 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on August 29, 2018, 07:55:52 amI'm not sure anybody has one yet (apart from Dave).

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2018, 03:29:09 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on August 29, 2018, 07:55:52 amFrom Dave's video.This may give some preliminary idea before further tests (if we can see real professional grade tests and measurements or just entertainment show as usually - this we know later)Note that in this image there is BW limit on. I have not get any answer what is BW limit 20M, 100M or what? Also it looks like there is not much sample data on image...only 25k one wfm.If it is 20M... better that I do not say anything if it looks high or low... (need note that 1mV/div is magnified from 4mV/div what is most sensitive full resolution)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2018, 03:46:31 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on August 29, 2018, 03:29:09 pmIt has two settings : 20 MHz and 250MHz.But, unfortunately when making DS7000 they made it as bad as Keysight DSOX3000T, which also has 1 mV/DIVand 2 mV/DIV magnified in software from 4 mV/DIV, and pretty high noise.Both of those scopes are fast, but not low noise scopes. Actually, DS7000, in many ways is "inspired" by philosophy of Keysight DSOX 3000/4000 series: high wfms/sec, hardware decoding, etc etc..Except they put much more memory on it... Low noise, high sensitivity input channels were not high on a priority list..

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2018, 05:59:41 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 29, 2018, 03:46:31 pmMaybe it's simply not a problem for real work. Maybe it's mostly something for volt-nuts to obsess over in forums.Realistically, how much of a problemis<1mV of noise on (eg.) a 5V system? A 1V system?Even a lowly DS1054Z has a "high res" mode which will eliminate all random noise on a repetitive signal by averaging multiple waves together. Any noise you see in high res mode is in the signal, not in the 'scope.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2018, 06:19:35 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 29, 2018, 05:59:41 pmIf you did any real work with an oscilloscope you'd know the answer: noise does matter because the noise doesn't get smaller when setting the input to a less sensitive setting. So it is easy to get a band of noise across the screen (I hated my Agilent DSO7104 for that even with BW limit on) which obscures the interesting part of a signal. Try to do accurate cursor measurements on a band of noise. Sure high-res mode can do some filtering but you get aliasing artefacts when zooming out and usually you can't use it together with peak detect so you miss other parts in a signal. All in all the less noise an oscilloscope has the more convenient it is to use.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2018, 09:48:39 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 29, 2018, 05:59:41 pmHigh res doesn't do that, average does... In average you can program the number of captures to average. High res uses oversampling or a moving average. In both cases it will filter out the input noise as well as the random noise from your source which you might want to look at. Also, you can't use average for single shot capture.Lower sensitivity ranges only differ in not being digitally amplified, so only the first ranges, which are zoom of a higher range gets higher noise, then the noise stays pretty much the same, could change a bit depending on the gain of each stage but can even get higher at some point where the Eon dominates over Ein.You could use a preamp to go to the lowest ranges and keep the noise as the others, but you can't get very much from them, and they are kind of a pain, expensive if you buy one or hard to build properly.I don't know why scopes don't have other filtering options, if you want to look at an audio signal a 100kHz BW limit could do a lot of good and implementing this in SW could be quite nice. Having one filter or two per decade would be great. High res does something like this but as I said it's not very straight forward knowing what it's doing, and as you don't know you don't know what it could be doing behind, it will change the response as you change the horizontal scale. With math you also can do something like that but it's not great, sone times helps to have a better look at the signal but doesn't quite cut it.JS

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2018, 10:00:45 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 29, 2018, 05:59:41 pmIt depends on what you do.. If you work with analog, low level sensors, power supply stuff.. Yes, than it might be important. I agree that for general work you might not need it. And yes. Hires mode helps a lot. It will also reduce effective sampling frequency for same factor. So you end up with a 5 MHz scope. Real low noise and sensitivity with full bandwith cannot be replaced sometimes. I have a real 12 bit scope and it is amazing what detail can you see sometimes...Point is, I wasn't criticizing, quite the opposite. Many people swear by Keysight DSOX3000T series as "best scope to use" and it has same input sensitivity specs as ds7000. So it might not be important to many people out there. Many people need good MSO for their mixed signal work, not for low level analog stuff.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2018, 10:21:39 pm
content: Quote from: JS on August 29, 2018, 09:48:39 pmGW Instek and MicSig oscilloscopes have freely settable filters (low-pass, high-pass and band-pass) so it already exists and these are very useful for some purposes. Not just for audio but try looking at a signal with a noisy DC-DC converter nearby.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 01:03:08 am
content: I'm reading the manual for the Siglent while I'm waiting for it to arrive. A couple things I noticed I like better already.For example, on the Rigol, to set the scope to default you have to press Storage, and then press Default on the soft buttons.On the Siglent it's a single "Default" button in a good spot. That works wellfor me.One thing I think is stupid that the Siglent shows in the manual:"Currmeans the current memory depth."Why wouldn't they just write Mem? Cur means a crappy dog. Is that what they want their scopes associated with? Crappy dogs?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 01:48:01 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 30, 2018, 01:03:08 amHave a study up on User definable Default, a very useful feature.QuotePage # ?Please offer a suggested manual edit ?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 02:03:12 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 30, 2018, 01:48:01 amI've heard it has lots of customizable buttons and such, haven't gotten that far yet in the manuals. But I like the default button, default.I actually use the auto set and default buttons. They're both useful to me. I don't see the benefit of twiddling first and tuning later. I like to hit auto set and twiddle after.Quote from: tautech on August 30, 2018, 01:48:01 amPDF page 47, listed as page 23 in the document. #88. Sampling Rate/ Memory DepthDisplay the current sampling rate and memory depth. Sa means the current sampling rate and Curr means the current memory depth.Obviously it should say "Mem" for memory depth. Why would it say Curr for the word Current when it isn't measuring current? Does that make any sense? The simples answer is the correct one. Sa, or preferably Sam for sample, and Mem for memory.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 02:29:46 am
content: Josh, does copy editing Siglent's manual count as "free debugging?"(You know I had to ask.)

author: wpwrak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 02:43:02 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 30, 2018, 02:29:46 amHe's not talking about an error in the manual. "Curr" is what appears on the screen, and I agree that "Mem" would be much clearer.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 02:58:07 am
content: Quote from: wpwrak on August 30, 2018, 02:43:02 amHmmm, I see both points of view as in Curr as pertaining to Mem depth with the'current' settingand the same applies to the sampling rate wherein it changes too due to scope settings and/or active channels.Whatever they're called there will be some confusion for a DSO newbie. Curr, Pres, Exist, Mem and so on as each is not a static value. Curr clearly points to 'with current settings'.Interesting point though, maybe it should migrate into the main thread about these scopes so those that have posted there can get a chance to add their 2c.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 11:05:48 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 29, 2018, 10:00:45 pmIn those cases "low noise" isn't enough. To make it useful you also need really good DC offset ability, etc.(I suspect this is the real reason the DSOX3000T/DS7000 designers haven't made any special efforts to reduce noise - opamps that can recover at >5Ghz when massively overloaded are difficult to find so there's no point in trying to please the "low noise" market segment)Quote from: 2N3055 on August 29, 2018, 10:00:45 pmJitter aside, the rise times, etc., will be identical in hires mode so I'm not sure where that number came from.Quote from: 2N3055 on August 29, 2018, 10:00:45 pmTrue, but if you reallyneedthat then you have to buy a 12-bit 'scope.The bottom bit of a high-speed ADC is always a bit random so an 8-bit ADC leads to approx. 1mV of noise.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 11:11:35 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 30, 2018, 01:03:08 amBe sure to report back on how annoying it is to choose/toggle the on-screen measurements,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 11:31:34 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 30, 2018, 02:29:46 amHahahaha, that's a good point. But I'll give them this one for free if I don't have to stare at something that dumb on the screen.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 11:38:36 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2018, 11:11:35 amI know what you're referring to, but I don't know if I'll use most of them? The Siglent's menu is customizable from what I've read, and when you press Measure, FFT is supposed to be one of the first things that's supposed to show up. We'll see. If I find it annoying, I'll let you know. I didn't press any of the left side buttons on the Rigol, even though the little pictures were cute.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 11:44:39 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 30, 2018, 02:58:07 amBoth settings are "Curr" - what other point of view is there? Setting 1 is "Current Sample Rate" and setting 2 is "Current Memory Depth." There's a couple of different ways to abbreviate both settings that make sense. Neither have anything to do with crappy dogs. I speak a little Chinese. I know what left over Chinglish looks like.Xiexie,Josh

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 12:33:50 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2018, 11:05:48 am"High Resolution"The average of n captured sample points is recorded as one waveformsample. Averaging reduces the noise, the result is a more precisewaveform with higher vertical resolution."Average" The average is calculated from the data of the current acquisition anda number of consecutive acquisitions before. The method reducesrandom noise. It requires a stable, triggered and repetitive signal.The number of acquisitions for average calculation is defined with"No. of Averages"That is from Lecroy manual but description is accurate.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 04:21:29 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 30, 2018, 11:31:34 amRight on. That's why we do what we do. It's all good. And it's good to see you've got a good sense of humor, too.Cheers!

author: bugi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 09:18:15 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 30, 2018, 12:33:50 pm"... description is accurate." ?Those descriptions are not complete, are quite simplified, and claiming that the "averaging" gives a more precise waveform is IMHO a bit misleading, or it should at least explain the cases where the result will not be more precise. As an extreme example, a suitable long average over a suitable stable periodic signal would give a flat line; yeah, it is more precise in showing the average value, but completely incorrect in showing the input waveform, for which oscilloscopes are mainly meantThose descriptions give a good start for some people, but one can not really go very far with only that info. With (quite) a bit of math knowledge, one can derive the missing effects by oneself, but, when the descriptions are at the level shown above, they are clearly aimed at people who would not be able to do those derivations(Even beginners on this category of math do not need to be even mentioned what averaging will do for noise, specifically to random noise, but there they are.)An example of missing info: What does the averaging of sequential samples (the "high resolution" above) do to bandwidth or step response?An example on potential difference between theory and explained feature: Averaging multiple (well triggered) waveforms/acquisitions (the "average" above) would theoretically allow both reducing noise and giving higher resolution (with some limitations), not only reducing noise. So the result depends on the implementation.So, yeah, I would not call them "accurate" descriptionsOn the terminology:As is obvious from above, both methods use averaging (but samples are chosen differently), and both can/could theoretically give higher resolution (and yet do not have to give higher resolution) and both can give lower noise, so which term to use for which? Lecroy has chosen that particular way, and it is good they explained it in the manual, even if that crudely. Other people might have ended up using the terms in a different way.IMHO, better terms would be by the method, e.g. "moving average" and "multi-waveform average" or something like that, because those are unambiguous (or at least less ambiguous), though the even still the chosen effects and trade-offs are unknown unless explained in a manual (especially, if they give also higher resolution and not just noise reduction). But then again, the less-mathematically aware users would then not know what basic effects those will have (unlike "high resolution" which directly tells something to everyone). Without other explanation, "high resolution" effect could be achieved by multiple methods, each with different set of side-effects. Lecroy (and I think many other scopes) decided to mix and match, one feature termed by the method, other by the apparently most important effect. It gets even weirder when one mode is "hires" and another "eres"... which one does exactly what and how?... I wonder how many knows the answer without peeking into the manual (or scope's help popups).

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 10:12:20 pm
content: Those are stupid commercial names given by scope manufacturers.Those explanation are not wrong, therefore they are accurate. They are simplistic, not mathematically rigorous nor meant to be "accurate algorithmic description".You understood correctly (accurately) that first name refers to running average filtering. Also that other name represents making averages between separate trigger events.Which have different consequences:"High Resolution" - "moving average" - Represent FIR lowpass filter... Therefore it will filter out high frequency spectra above cutoff frequency. Noise will decrease basically in higher spectra above cutoff. It will work fine on random, non- repetitive signals, albeit with bandwidth of scope reduced to filter cutoff response..."Average" - "multi-waveform average" "multi-screen average" - It will average N number of capture buffers, mapping point on point in different captures. It is repetitive sampling, works only on highly repetitive signals. It keeps full bandwidth of scope. There will be some noise averaging if noise is Gaussian, but will usually have additional noise in time domain from trigger jitter.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 10:49:35 pm
content: Translation for simple people like me:Hi Res:Scope lowers bandwidth and averages some crap to pretend to be better quality.Average:Scope removes data and averages some other crap to pretend to be better quality.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 11:06:35 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 30, 2018, 10:49:35 pmDespite how you translate it at some time each of these tools will be found to be indispensable !

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 11:09:39 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 30, 2018, 11:06:35 pmMaybe, but you gotta admit it's a pretty good translation.

author: bugi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 06:51:32 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 30, 2018, 10:12:20 pmThis is where I disagree. IMHO, leaving some important information away makes a description inaccurate (while not wrong, per se). A crude example: "3" is not accurate description of the result of 10/3, but it is not wrong in the sense that it is the correct result... when given the extra explanation that it is the result rounded to just 1 digit. And the "is a more precise"-part was (also IMHO) a clear example how the description can be even wrong (and not just inaccurate), i.e. whether it is correct or wrong depends on the input signal and settings, and since that latter part is not told, the (less than experienced) reader can incorrectly assume it applies at all times and situations. Simply changing the "... is a more precise ..." to "... can give a better precision ...", adding a mention that moving average also affects frequency response, and perhaps even give a keyword or two ("moving average") would have been better; the reader is left with unknown conditional and a unknown effect on frequency response, for which he can look for more info elsewhere, if interested, and at least is aware that the better precision is not necessarily always applicable and the shown waveform may differ from the input waveform.While this case is certainly not a thing in court of justice, but still, leaving some important information out can make an explanation inaccurate or at least badly misleading, even if the part that is told is not wrong/lie/incorrect in itself.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 11:15:45 am
content: Quote from: bugi on August 31, 2018, 06:51:32 amWhat some may call a "lie by omission."

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 11:21:03 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 30, 2018, 11:06:35 pmThey wouldn't put them in if they weren't.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 07:37:08 pm
content: First Impressions.I like the screen andGUI better than the Rigol. It looks nicer.Ihatethe placement of the front USB port. My 32GB USB3.1 stick (which works perfectly fine, including firmware updates), has a lip that pokes up. I had to tie a string to it so I can remove it. It's very small (which I like, I don't want a huge thing sticking out of the scope), and it is pretty annoying to limit the space to grab memory sticks from the front of the unit.Firmware updating was a much simpler process on the Rigol. It's not difficult on the Siglent, but as I expected, it's more work. Even if the firmware file is in the root of the memory stick, you still need to select the file, and click a stupid button to run it. Then it decompresses the file, and asks you to manually "restart the scope and wait" (shut off and power back on, since there's no actual restart button). Eventually it comes back to life, and you need to go to the menu to confirm that the firmware update was actually successful. Assuming it was successful, now you need to wait 30 minutes for the scope to regulate itself before you do a self calibration.By comparison, on the Rigol you put the firmware update file on the memory stick and put it in the hole. It automatically detects the firmware file and asks you if you want to update. It does the rest.The end.Firmware UpdatesMy scope came withSoftware 7.6.1.20R3 and FPGA 2018-01-03installed.The instructions say there should be a 1 or 0 after the 7 to tell you if the V1 OS was installed or not. It was, but I didn't know that until later, thanks to weirdness from the info screen.For the hell of it, I decided to install 6.1.12 firmware to see what would happen. It worked fine. There was no warning about installing an older firmware, it went ahead and installed as you would expect. After installing, there was more visible noise on screen, and it showed:Software 7.6.1.12 and FPGA 2017-11-07.Finally I installed what I assume is the latest available firmware. Now my scope showsSoftware 7.1.6.1.25R2 and FPGA 2018-03-06.The firmware documentation is certainly sloppy. The US site listing the firmware versions has a revisions link that is outdated, so it's totally useless. They should include release dates next to their links.Anyway, another 15 minutes of waiting before the self-calibration can be done and then I can hopefully use this thing.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 08:41:40 pm
content: Self-calibration took about 7 or 8 minutes, which isn't too bad. I don't remember how long the Rigol took.I know I'm impatient, but the speed of the screenshots was worth the price of admission alone. On the Siglent, you press print, and it tells you it was saved.Done. On the Rigol, it tells you it's saving it, shows a progress bar, saves it, and after about 3 to 5 seconds you can use the scope again. Siglent wins screenshot speed for sure.When using the Auto Setup, a simple "back/undo" type arrow poops up on the bottom soft menu. You can quickly undo the auto settings, or click default to reset all. I dig it.I plugged my Pico TA131 that was calibrated in the Rigol, and it was still spot-on with the Siglent.I calibrated the new x100 probe I got, the BK PR2000B. It has a tiny hump at the start of the square waves. I read somewhere that's supposed to be a good thing, but I dunno. Is that true, or does this probe suck? 1 out of 4 of my TA131 probes I bought does the same thing:Oh yeah, and I love the simplicity of using that zoom feature as above.On a side note, it looks like they're paying attention. People were comparing the math functions in the forums here, and mentioned Rigol's cute pictures, and Siglent added some cute pictures:

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 08:49:01 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 01, 2018, 08:41:40 pmDoes the 100x probe compensation adjustment range spec adequately cover the SDS1104X-E input spec of 15 pF ±2 pF ?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 09:12:03 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 01, 2018, 08:49:01 pmThe manual says 10 - 30 pF, so it certainly should. I attached the specs.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 09:13:20 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 01, 2018, 08:41:40 pmUm, so does the Rigol.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 09:24:31 pm
content: More Observations:I like that both the front and rear USB ports work for both memory sticks and for powering devices such as differential probes.I also like that the frequency counter is always on. I didn't like having to search for and enable that on the Rigol (and I didn't like when I forgot to).I'm also able to see things I couldn't see before with the Rigol. I have a prototype tube amp with a modified reverb circuit in it, which is the cause of a parasitic oscillation. Watching the sine waves, probe connected to the output jack: if I turn up the reverb knob I get the assumed reverb shakiness at first, but then parasitic craziness. With the Rigol, it looks random and crazyish. With the Siglent connected using the same Pico probe, it's a lot clearer, and I can see the parasitic's timing that wasn't at all apparent before. I don't know if that's helpful yet, but it's interesting.Oh yeah.TwoThree things I don't really like:1. I don't like having only a "soft" power button. I would prefer that there was also a real power button on the back.2. Not sure about the IEC socket. It's probably fine, but something about it feels cheap. I use similar fused IEC sockets on my amps, and they feel a lot more sturdy.Edit: 3. I don't like where the probe calibration terminals are. It's better on the Rigol out of the way on the side, instead of the middle like on the Siglent. My opinion.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 09:27:59 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 01, 2018, 09:13:20 pmThe Siglent has a permanent physical Default button, the Rigol did not.On the Rigol you had to press STORAGE to bring up a menu on the screen, and then you could press DEFAULT. Those are extra steps. I'm not saying it was hard on the Rigol. But two button presses is more than one. That's a slower work flow.On the Siglent, the default soft button poops up automatically. That's less work.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 09:34:25 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 01, 2018, 09:12:03 pmGood.Probe compensation adjustment can be influenced by the pressure placed onto the trimmer with the adjustment tool.Check this is not the case with your issue. Sometimes to get compensation 'perfect' it requires more than a single attempt.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 09:58:51 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 01, 2018, 09:34:25 pmlol, obviously I tried more than once before posting about it.That screenshot is without me touching the probe. I'll mess around with it more later and see if it changes at all.Edit: I tweaked it around more, it doesn't look as noisy as that screenshot, but it still has that little spike. Not sure why that screenshot makes it look so noisy anyway, I was probably messing around.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 12:26:26 am
content: Hey! The Rigol has an overshoot measurement, pretty handy while calibrating probes! I got it under 1%, don't remember the exact number, but that suggests about 1 LSB, which seems good enough for me.I calibrated the probes when it arrived, each probe for each channel with the corresponding color and I just check every once in a while, haven't need to tweak it any further than that.JS

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 01:19:45 am
content: Josh, thanks for the comparisons thus far. Interesting stuff.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 01:41:32 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on September 02, 2018, 01:19:45 amNo problem! It certainly has been interesting. I'd say, for me, from a user-experience standpoint, the Siglent wins hands-down.I felt dumb for a second because it was so simple to use I couldn't figure something out. I was looking for the probe compensation button in the menus, and I couldn't find it. Then I realized the only button I didn't hit was for the channel. Duh! There it is. Everything on the Siglent is that straight-forward; if the settings are relevant, the menu pops up when you press the button. It's actually very well organized.Between the overall faster performance, and the better user-experience I'm already enjoying this scope more. The workflow is faster, and the screen definitely looks better to me. I'm happy with this purchase.Now, I'm going to do more testing/work on a tube amp and see if I can sort out this stupid parasitic.At the same time, I'm trying to justify the purchase of some of these probes. Hopefully I find them all useful.The x10 on the TA131s are rated 600V, which is plenty for most of my circuits, but I also got the x100 which are rated at 2000V.I also need to figure out how useful the differential probe I got is. At x50 it goes to 130V, and x500 it goes to 1300V. I feel like this guy is going to collect some dust. I guess it's a good thing it comes in fancy case, right?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 01:45:52 am
content: Quote from: JS on September 02, 2018, 12:26:26 amWhen I had the Rigol, I calibrated the first probe, and retested it on each channel. It didn't need any tweaking at all once calibrated. Even switching one of my TA131 probes from the Rigol to the Siglent surprisingly didn't need any adjusting.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 02:00:09 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 02, 2018, 01:45:52 amYes, I also did that test, and had the same results, but better to be safe, and even better have the color on your probe tip matching the display (leave aside the two blue channels)JS

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 02:01:02 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 02, 2018, 01:45:52 amAnother thing about 'accurately' compensating probes, set the timebase to say 200us or faster so to stretch the peak of the square waveandalso use plenty of amplitude so to magnify the uncompensated portion for finer adjustments.You might have to shift the Hor and 0V positions but the result is worth it. Also DO assign the correct colored rings to the probes so that they go back onto the same inputs.What a lot of ferking about I hear you say, well I do this for every DSO I sell !

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 02:10:22 am
content: Quote from: JS on September 02, 2018, 02:00:09 amHahahaha, I was gonna make a joke about missing having two blue channels, and I totally forgot.Quote from: tautech on September 02, 2018, 02:01:02 amYeah, I play with them knobs plenty.I stretch out the wHor until it's too bent to adjust, and then tweak it back to a usable shape. I've tried doing that both by itself, and with the zoom function to see how it affects compensation. For whatever reason, with the square looking flat, the tip always looks over-compensated on the x100 probe. Just the tip.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 02:36:58 am
content: Here's another example of the speed (by mistake). This is the 1 Pico probe that does the same thing as the BK probe. I shoved in the memory stick and hit the print button. It worked fast enough that it captured the screen with the USB message still on, and I didn't even realize it captured anything yet, so I hit the button again and captured two images. Oops.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 02:46:24 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 02, 2018, 01:41:32 amWell, it sounded like you had already determined that you didn't need to make differential measurements, just relative to ground.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 04:55:49 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 02, 2018, 02:36:58 amYeah you get that if you're in too much of a hurry capturing screenshots. A USB stick with an LED can let you know when the Save has finished.BTW, the channel tab for the screenshot of the 100x probe earlier shows input attenuation set to 1x as you hadn't set that up before saving however it won't make any difference to the displayed overshoot.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 11:32:23 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on September 02, 2018, 02:46:24 amWell, yeah. 99% of what I'm doing will be to ground. Of course I mightlearnsomething that increases my need for the differential probe, but I dunno.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 11:39:14 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 01, 2018, 08:41:40 pmThe Rigol does the exact same thing.(push the horizontal timebase knob and you toggle zoom mode)(except the Rigol shows an extra inset at the top showing you where you are in the entire memory buffer).

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 11:40:24 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 02, 2018, 04:55:49 amHaha, yeah, I hadn't found that setting yet. I did retry after finding it but, as you said, the results were the same.I'm not worried about the screenshot thing; it's a good thing. On the Rigol it took 3 to 5 seconds to record the screenshot and you couldn't do anything while it was doing it. The Siglent is basically instant and you can still use the scope while it's doing it anyway.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 11:41:49 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 11:39:14 amCool! I dunno why I never pressed that button on the Rigol. lol

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 11:44:13 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 02, 2018, 04:55:49 amOr ... a good user interface would show a popup confirmation message on screen.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 11:45:53 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 11:44:13 amIt does, but it's fast and I looked away. Speed is good.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 11:46:20 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 02, 2018, 11:41:49 amOK, I think I can see where this is heading.You were too repulsed by the Rigol's ugly case to actually learn how to use it.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 11:53:15 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 11:46:20 amPsshhh. You're going to turn ad hominem because I missed one button? I've been very fair regarding the pros and cons of both units. You're far too defensive of a product you didn't design. The Rigol is an inferior product. Get over it. It still has its place....in the dumpster.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 11:55:44 am
content: Have you tried viewing the X100 traceat the same timeas a X10 trace on the same 1kHz signal.I can imagine(guess!) that the scopes 1kHz is expectiing to be driving a 15-20pF scope probe, rather than just the 5pF of the X100. And of course 3V pp is very low signal for a X100 probe, keeping square waves perfect over a very large dynamic range is very difficult.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 11:56:17 am
content: Quote from: JS on September 02, 2018, 12:26:26 amOh, dear. It looks like the Siglent is missing that one!Edit: My bad, it's there, Siglent calls it "FOV" instead of "Overshoot"FWIW: I just counted the number of measurements on the Rigol. It has 37 compared to the Siglent's 28.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 12:04:25 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 11:56:17 amWell they do both have their pros and cons.Point for the Rigol if you need more measurements. Does the Rigol do standard deviation also?

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 12:12:10 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 30, 2018, 11:09:39 pmHi, i use hi-res also as a digital filterThis is when i don't want to be bothered to do "good" probing because i want to probe several signals at a time and i don't have four hands, so i can get rid of high frequency noise.high frequency noise can come from MCU programmer during debug, laptop power supply or some bastard here with an FM repeater that is messing up all my measurements, just to make an example.First i make sure that with good probing the signal is indeed as it should be, then i resort to lazy probing and enable high-res.PS: a friendly advice, fungus has been in my ignore list for a long time

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 12:13:42 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 02, 2018, 12:04:25 pmDoesn't look like it, it shows max/min instead.(Stats mode shows the box at the bottom of the screen)

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 12:17:46 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 12:13:42 pmThat's all good. I'm sure both companies can add more math functions if they want to.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 12:20:51 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on September 02, 2018, 12:12:10 pmLazy probing, now you're speaking my language!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 12:23:06 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 12:13:42 pmOh, wait... it has it. You have to select thetypeof statistics.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 12:51:21 pm
content: I haven't really delved much into the statistics before. There's a lot in there, you can actually enable a rolling graphical display of measurements over time to go with the stats.(they aren't changing much there because it's just the probe compensation signal but the yellow linesareadvancing across the screen)

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 01:04:38 pm
content: That's all cute, but with the Siglent, there's more usable screen space, a useful 1M FFT, and you can view all of that with measurements and statistics on screen all at once...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 01:14:31 pm
content: ...but holy crap does it annoy me every time I see "Curr" on screen instead of Mem for memory depth. Morons.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 01:30:49 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 11:56:17 amYou know that lies do not walk long... so why. Or is it just only fun.Siglent 38.And WHAT "one" is Siglent missing?FOV Overshoot after a falling edgeROV Overshoot after a rising edgeRPRE Overshoot before a rising edgeFPRE Overshoot before a falling edge

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 01:37:19 pm
content: FFT+stats+measurements in a more sensible layout:OK, it's only 16kpoints FFT. Siglent wins there.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 01:40:47 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on September 02, 2018, 01:30:49 pmTry counting again...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 01:42:26 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 01:37:19 pmThat's a matter of opinion. I checked the thesaurus, ugly isn't anywhere under "sensible." The FFT on the Rigol still isn't 1M or very useful. Look how small that usable screen area is by comparison. You need a screen magnifier with the thing.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 01:50:55 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 02, 2018, 01:42:26 pmI didn't buy my Rigol for the FFT, I'm just comparing the two for fun ...FFTs need detail soall8-bit ADCs are inadequate, IMHO. 1Mpts helps but it's only a band-aid compared to having more bits.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 01:57:58 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 01:40:47 pmNo, I know but it is not my head ache if you can not read and count. Where is your blind spot.Rigol do not have Stdev measurement. (I do not mean measurements statistics dev but signal data Stdev what is very useful feature. If know where and how to use it.You can start lesson onehere, page 14,and count: Take your fingers for help. Oh but wait...how you count to 38 using fingers. Perhaps you can mark every 10 so that instead of 28 you finally get 38... exercise...exercise...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 02:05:05 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on September 02, 2018, 01:30:49 pmSorry. My band for not looking "FOV" up in the Siglent dictionary. I guess I'm just used to "Overshoot" being labelled, um, "Overshoot".(Is there a reason they call it that? There's obviously enough room in that menu to just write "Overshoot". Rigol managed to squeeze it onto a tiny button.)

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 02:10:14 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on September 02, 2018, 01:57:58 pmOh, snap! Looks like Siglent gets the math point too. 38 math functions for Siglent, and only 37 for Rigol.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 02:10:37 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on September 02, 2018, 01:57:58 pmIt does have RMS, which is pretty much the same math, the sqrt of the average of the sqares of the samples... You only need to take the signal AC coupled, I don't remember if it doesn't do the RMS on AC only ignoring DC.Is my math way off?JSJS

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 02:12:31 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 02:05:05 pmI'll give you that one, I hate the way they label certain things. Hey, did I mention I think it's stupid that they label memory depth "Curr" - pretty crazy, right?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 02:31:15 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 02, 2018, 02:10:14 pmSorry, but no.I was only counting the number of measurements on the Rigol's side buttons.To get things like averages, min, max, standard deviation, etc. on the Rigol you have to turn on the separate "stats" display, they're not on the buttons.(And if you're going to include channel delays, should we include the Rigol's cursor measurements? The Siglent would just fall even further behind)

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 02:37:17 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 02:31:15 pm37 is still less than 38, right?The Siglent also has a separate stats button.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 02:39:12 pm
content: Quote from: JS on September 02, 2018, 02:10:37 pmRigol also has "Periodic RMS" which gives a slightly more accurate answer than RMS on periodic signals by aligning the RMS calculation to whole waveforms. That way you don't add any partial waveforms to the mix.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 02:48:40 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 02, 2018, 02:37:17 pmAt least six of those 38 don't really count because they're all under the stats on the Rigol ("Min", "Max", "Mean", Cmean", "Sdev", "Cstd").Rigol can show 22 new measurements in stats mode, that makes 59.Edit: That's not true, it's less.Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 02, 2018, 02:37:17 pmI know.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 03:03:04 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 02:48:40 pmThe Rigol Manual says:"Auto measurements of 32 waveform parameters and measurement functionswith statistic." Sounds like even less to me.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 03:08:23 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 02, 2018, 03:03:04 pmWeird, mine says 33:But, I've counted them twice and I have 17 functions on the side buttons under "Vertical" and 20 under "Horizontal".

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 03:30:57 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 03:08:23 pmThe only thing I can think of is that the four delay/phase measurementsaren'tlisted in that section of the manual but theyareon the side buttons.33+4 = 37Add in the stats: Min, Max, Avg, Std.Dev. and that's 41.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 03:31:04 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 02, 2018, 02:10:14 pmYou mean measurements.With math functions Siglent is not so rich. Just usual +, -, *, /, d/dt , ∫dt , √ and FFT. Of course 1M FFT is lot if compare some others who have 2 - 64k. (Rigol 1kZperhaps16k?)(lets hope some day there is also some automatic measurements for FFT)Also there is not user adjustable some measurements parameters. Example rise and fall times are only between 10 and 90% and so on.Of course it is nice to want/wish more. But, top priority is that what there is these need work perfect first.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 03:36:01 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on September 02, 2018, 03:31:04 pmThat's an industry standard so don't expect them to change it.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 03:42:49 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 03:36:01 pmYes and no.Perhaps you have never used any Hewlett-Packard oscilloscopes or others where also can adjust these limits and HP also explain why. Also some components manufacturers use...10/90 is not written in stone - even when it is so popular and as "default". More study and experience and you know more. But warning: "knowledge increases the pain". Also more you know things come more complex.Or take example Silicon Labs AN766"Take for example a differential LVDS signal which has a 350 mV single ended amplitude and a 400 ps rise and fall time measured at 20% and 80%, the differential slew rate would be (2 x 350 mV x 0.6) / (400 ps) or 1.05 V/ns. For the purpose of this application note only differential slew rate is used."10/90 is NOT standard - even if it is mostly used.Instead of 0.35 then just use 0.22 if thinking BW using rt.

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 04:09:06 pm
content: Awesome thread guys! Keep it going!

author: SMB784
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 04:22:38 pm
content: I think we have pretty well talked this issue to death.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 04:25:50 pm
content: Quote from: SMB784 on September 02, 2018, 04:22:38 pmWho's "we"?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 04:46:54 pm
content: Oh no. I didn't think I was gonna care that much about the web view / control... But damn.Setup took seconds. The control knob on the Siglent is speed sensitive, so setting the IP manually was fast and easy. I didn't know that about the knob, and that's fantastic.Then being able to both control the scope, and update the firmware from my web browser is pretty awesome.Can the Rigol run full screen on a full high definition monitor like the attached screenshot (note the resolution), on any computer platform, without installing anything new? I don't think so.Now my scope has a Full HD 24" screen instead of that little 7" screen. Not too bad.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 05:44:29 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 02, 2018, 04:46:54 pmIt doesn't have more pixels though, it's just stretching the image.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 05:54:00 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 05:44:29 pmThat stretch is called flexibility. Something the Rigol doesn't have in this case.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 05:58:29 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 02, 2018, 05:54:00 pmThere's plenty of screen capture and remote control programs for the Rigol, it's just not built-in as a web server.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 06:03:10 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 05:58:29 pmMore complicated, bloated, slower, and less convenient. Point goes to Siglent. Siglent once again made the user experience easier, faster, and better.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 06:04:02 pm
content: I don't know what frame rates the Siglent gets, it will be difficult to measure visually.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 06:08:33 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 06:04:02 pmThe Siglentlookslike realtime with no noticeable lag. Everything I read about remote connecting the Rigol complained about lag.I was going to test the Rigol software before I returned it, but everybody told me not to bother with the oversized slow, bloatware... So, there's that.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 06:11:52 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 02, 2018, 06:08:33 pmI never tried it. Most of the programs to do it seem to be some sort of experimental Python scripts. Ew.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 06:17:57 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 06:11:52 pmHaha, we can certainly agree on that. Ew.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 07:05:16 pm
content: I might knock up a quick test program to see how long it takes to grab a screen over LAN.The DS1054Z isn't famous for fast network response though.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 08:21:25 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 07:05:16 pmAlready been done by member Lundmar with his LXI tools in the thread linked in reply #101 in this thread. He lists LAN address speeds for several DSO's in that thread, yes, 1104X-E and 1054Z.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 08:26:31 pm
content: Quote from: SMB784 on September 02, 2018, 04:22:38 pmIn some little way I agree however incorrect/misleading/wrong informationmustbe addressed and real facts offered.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 08:30:44 pm
content: I still don't know the issue with this, X-E has prove to been better but more expensive, both offer great price and functionality. Pretty well balanced what they offer to what they cost so there lies the trouble while picking one, but that's a decission for each person, considering needs and budget.JS

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 08:38:25 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 02, 2018, 08:21:25 pmYeah. The LAN speed comparison over TCP/VXI11 was ~30 requests per second for the Rigol, and ~1100 requests per second for the Siglent. That's onlyslightlybetter performance for the Siglent.

author: ttelectronic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 09:54:14 pm
content: Quote from: JS on September 02, 2018, 08:30:44 pmIndeed, that is what it really comes down to. Needs and budget. I agree both offer value for money in the budget scope range. For me the price difference would have been $250-$300 ish + tax in Canada. I couldn't justify it and the Rigol suites me fine for my needs. Maybe one day when things are better I will grab the siglent or whatever else is out there. That being said there are a couple more useful things I would purchase before then.I've found it quite useful but unfortunately it will probably be a couple years until I am able to get around to the project I initially bought it for. Life throws some curve balls sometimes.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 09:57:13 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 02, 2018, 08:26:31 pmThese threads have been nothing but propaganda from the same usual suspects.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 10:15:17 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 01:37:19 pmI've been screwing around more, and the Siglent has that ugly view too. It does three different views. The split screen like I did before, an overlay screen like you showed, and then FFT only without the waveform. I attached my ugly parasite.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 10:20:57 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 02, 2018, 09:57:13 pmI'm new to the site, and oscilloscopes. This thread has been very helpful to me. You're right about certain people's bias being very clear, but it's clear enough that I can see through it. My BS detector is strong.I've personally purchased both scopes and posted honest praise and criticism of both of them. If I seem at all like I'm biased towards the Siglent it's because 1. itisbetter (at least for me); and 2. messing with people with bias is fun.

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 10:36:24 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 02, 2018, 10:15:17 pmI wonder if you one could get the cursors up there, and maybe the help info overlaid as well? You can never have too much information, right?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 10:39:17 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 02, 2018, 10:20:57 pmYour comments have been most helpful. Few people have actually used both or tried to compare them without ending up at a preconceived conclusion.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 11:03:34 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 02, 2018, 10:39:17 pmThanks. I'm no fan of dishonest or BS reviews either, so I try to be as fair as possible. I've focused mostly on the user experience and visible options as my skills with this stuff are currently limited. As I get to understand it all better I may have more to say, but I think that higher level tech end of it has probably already been covered anyway / is easily comparable on the datasheets if people are being honest with themselves.The thing I have NO idea about is why I get such a clearer reading of the issue with my amp I posted above in that screenshot. I don't know if it's the higher bandwidth or what, but I wish I had a clue. Oh well.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 11:07:26 pm
content: Quote from: BillB on September 02, 2018, 10:36:24 pmHa, I mean, that sounds like it would be helpful. I need to play with that. I was thinking it might also help to try doing the event thingamabob I'm too tired to remember right now.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 12:55:27 am
content: ....and the parasite is dead!It was so easy to see everything on the Siglent, it made it a lot easier to track down. For the hell of it, I tried out the differential probe in different spots to eliminate the power amp section / to confirm my suspicion that the reverb section was the cause of the parasitic. Nothing else was funky, so I connected it up to the output, and eventually found that it was the plate leads coming off the reverb tube causing the issue. Chopsticking them into different positions made the difference and everything is acting as it should be now.It was a PIA to find because the leads were so short. Chopsticking them previously had no effect, especially without seeing the visual response on the scope.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 01:34:02 am
content: Yeah I'm not sure why the parasitics were more visible on the Siglent. Was there a triggering issue on the Rigol? Did you have 50 or 100 MHz bandwidth running on it?It'd be interesting if you could've recorded the bad waveform to replay it on an arb generator. Then we could potentially try it out, too.And I'll second (or is it third or higher) the sentiment that your comparison of the two models was very good.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 01:43:44 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on September 03, 2018, 01:34:02 amI'm guessing it might have something to do with triggering, but I did not unlock the Rigol to 100MHz, so maybe that could be part of it too. I don't know what frequency range the parasitic was in, so I don't know if bandwidth was relevant or not (I also don't know how to check if somebody wants to enlighten me). It took a lot of tweaking to get anything out of the Rigol that I could use, but I'll attach some screenshots from both scopes showing the parasitic.Actually, to be fair, I need to do that tomorrow. The best images I have from the Rigol are from a 2nd amp with the same reverb circuit with the same issue. I haven't fixed that one yet, so I can grab some screenshots with the Siglent tomorrow for comparison before I fix that one.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 01:48:49 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 03, 2018, 01:43:44 amOften a Trigger level adjustment will cause the frequency counter to show a different value otherwise you can use the horizontal cursors.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 05:37:06 am
content: Quote from: ttelectronic on September 02, 2018, 09:54:14 pmI was about to finish my post with something similar, I've already said in this topic but 250 posts ago... For me the difference was greater than yours, I payed $420 for the Rigol shipped, plus 50% custom fees, for the siglent plus shipping I was asked $800 and then 50% of that in fees. So in the end a coffee shy of $600 in difference! Or twice as much... Being in the position of rigging a whole lab, needing a lab PSU, a signal generator, hot air station, among other small stuff, yes, big difference saving those bux for all the other gear.Today I went to look for a sig gen and power supply I found used online, testing them we found they were out of specs, the current limiting range was shifted like 300mA in one of the rails, a dirty switch and a noise in one of the waveforms of the sig gen, plus he haven't checked calibration on it (looked spot on, output atten -70dB was like -70.002dB in his 34401, freq, amplitude in the different ranges, all of it!) and the guy said that he will not give them to me out of specs, that I should come back in two days for the units in fully working condition and calibrated. He took all the fun from me! Let's see how it goes on tuesday.JS

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 07:17:39 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 03, 2018, 01:43:44 amNope.Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 03, 2018, 01:43:44 amNope.Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 03, 2018, 01:43:44 amIt that's a 1kHz signal on screen then it's in the 10s of kHz range. Both 'scopes had 10,000x the bandwidth needed to see it.It's also hundreds of mV amplitude so nothing to do with noise or sensitivity or anything like that.The Rigol should have seen it as easily/clearly as the Siglent.Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 03, 2018, 01:43:44 amLots of ways:a) Just look at it visually. It's (very) roughly half a grid square in X and Y so about 100uS(10kHz), 250mV.b) Want more accurate numbers? Go into cursor mode and draw little boxes around it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 08:02:50 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 02, 2018, 08:21:25 pmThe figures he got for the DS1054Z were:~30 requests/s via TCP/VXI11 and ~160 requests/s via TCP/RAWThere's no reason not to use RAW mode so 160 would be fine for screen capture (certainly "real time").That obviously doesn't factor in the data transfer time though. I had a look in the manual and it lists five different image formats {BMP24|BMP8|PNG|JPEG|TIFF} and it looks like they use some inefficient ASCII encoding scheme to transmit it (no raw data stream).Tthat makes it sound like there's going to be a lot of messing around and processing overhead. Good for not having to mess around with USB sticks to grab a screenshot, bad for fast remote viewing.Imighthave a play but I'm not hopeful it will give 60fps.Edit: I just messed about with the image formats in the "storage" menu and TIFF is saved much faster than the default PNG. Go figure.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 08:59:44 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 02, 2018, 09:57:13 pmYet Another Pissing Contest

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 11:22:27 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 03, 2018, 01:48:49 amI obviously tweaked the trigger level. On the Rigol, tweaking the trigger as much as I want didn't get me any useful info, and often couldn't freeze the wave. That's why you'll see the some of the screenshots are "stopped." On the Siglent, I hit the auto set button and I barely needed to tweak anything to have useful waves on the screen.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 11:27:31 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 03, 2018, 07:17:39 amThank you! That's all very helpful. Now I have a reason to play with cursors with the other amp before I fix the second parasitic.I'll post the screenshots from the Rigol, they don't look anything like this. I guess we'll see once I connect the other amp if the other amp shows the same way on the Siglent. I have a couple screenshots from the Rigol of this amp, but they make even less sense.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 01:20:40 pm
content: Here's a point where both scopes fail:lack of persistent file naming.If you format the memory stick, they start over from 1. That's annoying as hell. They should keep counting up from where they left off unless the user resets the counter. Now if I copy a file to my computer, I'll need to manually rename it. Both scopes make this a pain in the butt.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 01:37:53 pm
content: And it seems that both of them haven't got a real time clock (Rigol for sure and Dave's teardown shows that the correcponding locations on the SDS1104X-E's PCB are left unpopulated). If this is still the case with the "Curr."production models is soemthing that needs to be figured out. Scopes with RTC usually also memorize the file designation counters in the battery-backed CMOS ram. It's also big "Plus(es)" to be able to sort stored waveforms / screenshot via the file date.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 01:49:11 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 03, 2018, 01:20:40 pmBuy another memory stick just for use with the scope, simple !In the US you should be able to get 8G sticks for less than $5.Make folders on it and save project file to the same folder, simple !Or if you want to properly document screenshots, save them from the Webserver using a PC connection and mouse and keyboard to properly name them, date them or whatever.

author: wpwrak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 02:36:56 pm
content: Quote from: TurboTom on September 03, 2018, 01:37:53 pmWhere on the PCB would that be ? I didn't see anything that looks like an RTC or a power source for it on mine. Unless it's in the PSU or in the analog FE cans.I took some pictures of the innards of my 1104X-E (leaving out the PSU, which doesn't seem to contain anything programmable, and the analog cans which I haven't dared to pry open yet). I still have to post-process (crop, contrast-adjust, annotate, webify, etc.) them, but they may already be useful if you want to research some details (warning: that repo is currently ~425 MB, twice that if checked out):https://github.com/wpwrak/1104xe-pix

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 03:03:36 pm
content: Quote from: TurboTom on September 03, 2018, 01:37:53 pmAbsolutely agree! There should be a timestamp on the screenshots and the filename in my opinion.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 03:06:41 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 03, 2018, 01:49:11 pmI spent about $11 and bought a 32GB USB3.1 memory stickjust for use with the scope. And I don't want to leave every screenshot I take for the next 10 years on it, even though it can store them all just fine. That's ridiculous. Everything you're describing isextra steps to make up for the shortcomings of the scopes.In other word(s):fail.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 03:56:25 pm
content: So the SDS1104 X is better then Rigol 1054, but how do the Sigletto fan sounds? Needs replacement?so buying from Batronix orhttps://www.siglent.eu/sds1104x-e.htmlis just a euro difference.Ah! Batterfly dude is 416+vathttps://www.batterfly.com/shop/siglent-sds1104x-e

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 03:58:20 pm
content: Siglent.eu isn't Siglent themselves but a dealer. Why Siglent allows to use their brand name like that by a third party is beyond me.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 04:29:46 pm
content: Quote from: wpwrak on September 03, 2018, 02:36:56 pmSorry, seems like I confused the teardowns, the one I was referring to was the one of the SDS1202X:(at about 5:00 minutes into the video).My fault...the SDS1204X-E indeed has no indication that Siglent ever planned to include an RTC.Seems like the manufacturers started to add RTCs only above the 1k$ limit (SDS2000X, >DS2000(A)...)Cheers,Thomas

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 04:30:19 pm
content: Quote from: MT on September 03, 2018, 03:56:25 pmI didn't do a db level to compare fan noise between models, unfortunately. I didn't find either of them to be obnoxiously loud, or quite quiet enough either.I would probably replace the fan in the Siglent, but it has the stupid warranty sticker on the bottom, and it isn't loud enough for me to warrant a void warranty.

author: bhishmar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 05:21:43 pm
content: @KungFuJoshI am planning to acquire the Rigol DS1054Z DSO.Can u please provide the following details for the DS1054Z unit acquired by you?1. Firmware Version Number2. Board version number3. Were you able to successfully unlock/upgrade to all the upgrade options using rigol-1.03d @http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/using option= "DSER" ?4. Which method is used: Telnet or front-panel buttons?5. Did u detect any side effect (Self-Calibration ... etc ) after this upgrade?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 05:31:54 pm
content: Quote from: bhishmar on September 03, 2018, 05:21:43 pmI updated to the latest firmware while I had it, but I returned the DS1054Z last week.I didn't do any of the hacks. I bought the DS1054Z from an authorized dealer that included all the "options" for free, except for the bandwidth, which is a hack. The extra bandwidth isn't useful to me, so I didn't bother with it. If you buy from an authorized dealer, you should still get all the options free. Unless you need more than 50MHz, I don't see the point in the hack, you're asking for other potential issues including needing better probes.

author: bhishmar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 05:49:27 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 03, 2018, 05:31:54 pmThanks for ur quick reply KungFuJosh.a) What was the original firmware rev num ?b) What was the latest version number to which you updated?c) Board Revision number?d) Would you care to share the dealer website url?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 05:59:01 pm
content: Quote from: bhishmar on September 03, 2018, 05:49:27 pma,b,c, don't remember.d) Not impressed by the dealer. Any authorized dealer should give you the options free, it's a Rigol promotion, not specific to the dealer.I'm in the US anyway, and you would need a local dealer unless you're gonna be ordering from a US dealer?To give you an idea why I'm not impressed, Tequipment (the dealer) shipped the Rigol to me in the Rigol product box by itself. Naturally, UPS damaged the box (assuming it wasn't already damaged). When I returned it, the dealer (obviously) wanted me to return it double-boxed (as it should have been in the first place). I'm still waiting for my refund. So, no, I don't recommend them.By contrast, I ordered my Siglent from CircuitSpecialists. They shipped the Siglent double-boxed in the first place, and neither box was damaged. They were very friendly and helpful on the phone, and included a cheapo DMM for free. It was a much better experience.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 06:04:12 pm
content: @bhishmar: The DS1054Z hacks still work, even on the latest hardware, using either the front panel or telnet. If you run into any issues, it's best to visit theBIG DS1054Z thread.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 06:07:42 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 03, 2018, 05:59:01 pmWell, that's no bueno.QuoteVery nice. I got mine from Saelig. It was also double-boxed, but appeared to have been that way from Rigol (both boxes were Rigol-branded). Saelig opened it prior to shipping to add a promo carry bag.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 06:09:05 pm
content: Quote from: bhishmar on September 03, 2018, 05:21:43 pmThere can be no problem with unlocking options on the DS1054Z, every hardware/firmware version is known to work.Entering long codes with the front panel is very fiddly, Telnet is much easier. Apart from that, there's no difference.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 06:14:02 pm
content: So, Josh, what's the story with your avatar? There's a resemblance to Chuck Norris there.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 06:16:12 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 03, 2018, 05:59:01 pmAFAIK: All Rigols come double-boxed from the factory. If you only had a single box then somebody must have RMA'd it before you.Ithinkthe main point of double boxing is so that there's a second, clean box to send it out again after an RMA. The spare box just happens to be stored inside the first box.UPS can pierce/rips a double box just as easily as a single box.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 06:19:29 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on September 03, 2018, 06:07:42 pmTell me about it.QuoteSaelig seems cool. I was going to get my Siglent from them originally, but they were out of stock.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 06:21:22 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on September 03, 2018, 06:14:02 pmlol, my face was covered in icicles after using the snowblower on a windy evening a couple winters ago. My wife took the photo as soon as I came inside. I was probably grouchy because it was freezing, so there's the Chuck Norris resemblance.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 06:26:23 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 03, 2018, 06:16:12 pmDouble-boxing is to add protection. It should have space and some sort of packing material between the boxes, but even if it doesn't, two boxes are stronger than one. Anything to protect from UPS (pronounced "oops") is a good thing.I like TE even less now that you mention that about them all supposed to be being double-boxed. I'll be avoiding them. If I don't have my refund in a couple days, I'll start a PayPal dispute.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 06:28:31 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 03, 2018, 06:21:22 pmAh, OK. Here's how my brain computed it:guy with mustache and beard + Kung Fu in screen name = Chuck Norris.Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 03, 2018, 06:26:23 pmI hadn't heard that one before. I like it!

author: bhishmar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 06:29:59 pm
content: Thanks to all : KungFuJosh, bitseeker & Fungus.As per KunFuJosh all official unlock options are currently provided free by Rigol itself.The only remaining upgrade-option is 100 MHz BW, & is un-official.Is there any practical improvement in the unit BW by doing this unlock , even with higher BW probes?What are other's experiences with DS1504Z?

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 06:34:54 pm
content: Quote from: bhishmar on September 03, 2018, 06:29:59 pmYes, the unlock makes the scope 100MHz BW instead of 50MHz. The BW of the probes doesn't really matter if the scope's front end has less.QuoteThere are many threads in the forum with others' experiences with the DS1054Z. It's best to peruse them as not every owner will be visiting this thread.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 06:42:13 pm
content: Quote from: bhishmar on September 03, 2018, 06:29:59 pmYes - double bandwidth!(even with supplied probes)Quote from: bhishmar on September 03, 2018, 06:29:59 pmIt's a really good oscilloscope. Buy with confidence.

author: bhishmar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 06:52:10 pm
content: @bitseeker @fungusYour reply seems to indicate that, the front end analog circuitry of DS1054Z (50MHz) Unit & DS 1104z (100Mhz) Unit are essentially the same, in terms of frequency response characteristics,& the only difference by doing this hack is probably simply configuring the input BW (anti-aliasing) filter from 50MHz to 100 MHz.Is the above statement correct?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 06:59:43 pm
content: Quote from: bhishmar on September 03, 2018, 06:52:10 pmYes.All models are really 100MHz. Theonlydifference is that the software switches an extra capacitor on the 50Mhz model.

author: bhishmar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 07:12:28 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 03, 2018, 06:59:43 pmHere in this forum, at other threads, I am reading that the 100 Mhz hacked DS1054Z is reading 100Mhz sinewave at very high attenuation.Surely if the -3dB point of a hacked DS1054Z is >= 100 MHz, it cannot be the case?Another way of asking this question is:Can u tell, what is the -3dB point of a hacked DS1054Z at your disposal?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 07:36:23 pm
content: Quote from: bhishmar on September 03, 2018, 07:12:28 pmWhere do you read that? (links please...)It's not true. Every thread in this forum confirms the bandwidth (with 3dB point at about 136MHz).There are many threads related to this, here is one:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-bandwidth/

author: bhishmar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 07:44:00 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 03, 2018, 07:36:23 pmI have read so many threads, & don't remember in which thread exactly. I will get back on it.Also the SG1104x -3db is much better than hacked DS1504Z in this thread itself probably.

author: bhishmar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 07:44:42 pm
content: I dont want to Hijack KungFuJosh's thread, anymore (if he feels so).Can I request a moderator to shift all posts from Reply #345 to a new thread named:"DS1054Z BW improvement how much thru 100Mhz unlocking"

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 07:56:15 pm
content: Quote from: bhishmar on September 03, 2018, 07:44:00 pmI don't think that's true, although it can be hacked to 200MHz.Obviously it's much more expensive, so...you choose.Quote from: bhishmar on September 03, 2018, 07:44:00 pmThen you should know there's no doubts about unlocked bandwidth. Many, many people have measured it, eg. in the thread I posted above.Quote from: bhishmar on September 03, 2018, 07:44:42 pmThere really is no point in discussing it further, 100Mhz is real.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 08:00:27 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on September 03, 2018, 06:28:31 pmThat's pretty funny.I had a friend who used to load trucks for UPS a long time ago. He told me that's how they pronounced it, especially when they tossed a box on a truck and they heard something smash. "Oops" - and on they go.

author: bhishmar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 08:30:42 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 03, 2018, 07:56:15 pmYes you are correct. But two things were lacking.a) whether the hack is valid with latest acquired models (board & firmware versions). You & bitseeker has now answered it.b) Regarding unlocked bandwidth, how much it was practicable, I was reading confusing reports. So I was looking for a quantitative assessment.Thanks for your link. I am trying to digest it.Btw TheoB's post seems to suggest that a switchable 20MHz BW limit feature is present in the unit.Can u confirm that such a "BW limit filter" feature is provided in DS1054Z menu?I read in comments below Daves initial 2015 video, that such a facility was not there initially & was later introduced.Is this true?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 09:02:22 pm
content: Quote from: bhishmar on September 03, 2018, 08:30:42 pmYes.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 10:41:38 pm
content: Well, unfortunately I don't think I can give a fair apples-to-apples comparison on these screenshots. I may have modified the amp a little after returning the Rigol and before scoping it with the Siglent. I'm still in the process of fixing this second one. I've completely removed the reverb tube and flipped it (this layout/chassis is much different and smaller), so I won't be able to do anything more until I'm done wiring that back up.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 12:04:42 am
content: Since you've already returned the Rigol, I wouldn't sweat it too much. It sounded to me like the issue was in getting a good trigger and you confirmed that. From the screen shots, just raising the trigger level a bit probably would've done the trick (just don't go too high or you get into the modulated region) and maybe a bit of hold-off.The good thing is that using auto on the Siglent triggered well for you, and you got that little bugger out of the amp.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 12:32:30 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on September 04, 2018, 12:04:42 amI did try adjusting the trigger on the Rigol quite a bit, but it didn't help.The stopped Siglent screenshots I was playing with the Single trigger. That obviously worked very well too. I'm still working on the amp in the comparison screenshots. Hopefully I'll have it figured out tomorrow, but that might be wishful thinking. I do have to do real work also.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 02:09:12 am
content: Real work. Don't you hate when that happens?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 02:27:38 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on September 04, 2018, 02:09:12 amWell, I will have to pay for all this test equipment at some point.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 03:28:24 am
content: Yup.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 04:58:31 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 04, 2018, 12:32:30 amMaybe this complex signal is a good opportunity to play around and gain experience with the advanced trigger options. If you had used some of these (I could consider pulse, runt to mention a few together with multiple levels / durations), you could have triggered right on the "bugger" where you wanted it to on both the rigol and the siglent. Just pressing Auto and turning level a bit up and down won't usually do the trick and hoping that level trigger will make you happy all the time is just ignoring a good percentage of the power a modern digital 'scope has to offer.Open the advanced trigger menu and play with the options. You will be surprised where it gets you.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 07:34:45 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on September 04, 2018, 12:04:42 amNope, it'snothingto do with triggering. The Siglent is triggering on the main waveform, not the glitches.It's some other basic setting, eg. display persistance. We can never know what the Rigol settings were when that wave was being viewed but the Siglent managed to show it mostly through dumb luck, nothing more.(Sorry to burst bubbles but it's true)

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 09:51:54 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 04, 2018, 07:34:45 amExept that it is not due to persistence. So why you again generate bullshit.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 10:31:46 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on September 04, 2018, 09:51:54 amIt certainly isn't due to triggering.The normal way to find stuff like that is to turn up persistence. The only bullshit here is from people who think the Siglent found it by magic.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 11:47:31 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 04, 2018, 10:31:46 amSiglent gets the point for Magic. +1<- he's waving a magic wand.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 11:49:20 am
content: Quote from: TurboTom on September 04, 2018, 04:58:31 amI'm in the process of reading the Siglent manual, and I'm at the advanced triggering section. I do plan on trying some of this fancy-shmancy stuff out. Or maybe I'll press buttons and read later.

author: wpwrak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 12:10:41 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 04, 2018, 11:47:31 amThe higher waveform update rate (about 100 k vs. 30 k, details would depend on settings) may have helped a little, too. High waveform rate = less time until the glitch appears on the screen. Persistence = once it has appeared on the screen, it stays there.Edit: s/unless/until/

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 01:05:40 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 04, 2018, 11:49:20 amHere's an extract from the Rigol manual:

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 03:31:22 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 04, 2018, 10:31:46 amYour comment was about shown image.For this image comment was bullshit. There is not persistence timer delayed display, it is more like (I'm quite sure) there is one frametime acquisitions overlaid.About persistence. Of course. You think tjhis is some kind of kindergarten.. All know what it is and as you say it is one way,and many times good way in practice before do more complex things, also mask test is good, for hunting glitches and other anomalies. Naturally.But in this image what you comment it is quite sure it is not persistence. I wonder if you understand how DPO...SPO, or what ever name we give it, works.Do we need now start lessons about principles how these things work.----------------------------------But then. Bit more about this persistence. I assume you know even some basics how it works. It works in display memory. It is only in display image map or least it can think it is like this.But, take again this image what you comment.In same TFT display frame there is more than one acquisition overlaid, as can see... all trigged but can not know how many there is really overlaid and also can not know which order these overlaid wfms have captured (if look only this image), but Siglent can separate these. TFT frame display as many overlaid as it have captured inside around 40ms. After then this is updated to TFT. And again next 40ms and next TFT image contain what have captured after last time display memory is updated to TFT (0 if display memory have some pixels what need keep until "persistence time" elapsed) With some t/div mem etc settings one TFT frame may contain well over 4500, even near 5000 max, captures overlaid.Of course with this speed in commented image it can not have more than only some capture overlaid until next TFT refresh.Ok, it produce image what can see on the fly in TFT screen. But in Siglent there is more. It also keep full acguisitions in buffer and it have full raw ADC data.If this commented image is stopped what user can do for analyze situation more deeply. He can push "History" button. After then he can analyze separate single captured wfms overlaid in this image. Including even time stamp for every trigged and captured single wfm. In this image case there is max 18 separate wfm in wfm history buffer memory, each 2.8Mpoints. (50Mpts)So, it is much much more than just screen persistence. (what is itself also good tool)After stop scope when this image is visible user can analyze fully these 18 (if this image have max) last captured wfm overlaid in TFT displayed frame. If it is only persistence image on TFT what can you do. Only look this image and perhaps use cursors or eyes for analyze it from image with image resolution. With Siglent you can separate these overlaid waveforms what can see in image overlaid. Not image mapped but overlaid single waveforms full raw ADC data what are in wfm history buffer (fifo). If need, even Sinc, linear or real data dots (no fake dots) can select for display because Sinc or lin is fully post processed in Siglent like in every serious scope need be.Every sinlke wfm in buffer can analyze with full measurement, FFT for every separate wfm in buffer, also example if buffer have more acquistions, example max 80000 it is bit hard to search all. THis is why there is other tools for analyze it. Of course it can replay for get persistence display if like or it can run through mask test or of course full mesurementsSo, of course persistence is good to use for keep these anomalies more time displayed. With every scope what have persistence. But then, if persistence time more or less or off... there is history buffer in Siglent where is lot of more than just TFT screen image. And this is powerful tool if user know how to take all out from this powerful feature.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2018, 12:01:39 am
content: Do NOT, ever, I mean EVER, buy anything from Tequipment. They are the worst.They've had the Rigol back since August 30th. I still don't have my refund. They told me I would have my refund within 48 to 72 hours of them receiving it, and a confirmation email. I never got any emails, except replies to me, which were all excuses.Finally, today, they processed the refund, but I only found out because I messaged their online chat. But, even though I returned that crap to them exactly as I received it, they charged me a$66 restocking fee, even after promising me they wouldn't charge me anything! They told me the DS1054Z was a 60 return policy withno restocking fees. I returned it in less than 30 days, as new, exactly as received. Ordered on the 1st, received on the 8th, and return received by them on the 30th.On top of that,one of the owners had the nerve to message me on here, letting me know that theyactuallygave me excellent customer service.Apparently I was wrong?! WTF. AND the guy has such an ego he thinks him having talked to me in one of the chats was some kind of blessing. He's so full of himself, at one point during that chat, he told me to google his name.PayPal dispute filed. Avoid these liars.EDIT: Geez, I wish I googled them before ordering, I usually do. They have people complaining about them going back to at least 2006.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2018, 12:17:58 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on September 04, 2018, 03:31:22 pmThere's people posting in this thread who didn't know about "zoom" mode until a few days ago, so...

author: tequipment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2018, 03:36:36 pm
content: Thanks for the feedback. We support our customers. We want all of our customers to have the best possible experience. This is a core value of our company. We are sorry you feel that you did not have a great customer experience.We had numerous chats with this customer on a ds1054z over the issue of a free bandwidth upgrade that the customer promised we offered. There is no such upgrade available for sale. When the customer said we promised this upgrade over the phone we looked for this phone call but found no such call. The customer also wanted to know why hacking a unit might void a warranty. We answered this question many times as it kept getting asked.I stand behind how we supported this customer. I personally was able to chat about this upgrade and clearly explained the options for this unit. The unit was returned missing accessories so a restocking fee was charged. We will refund the restocking fee to support this customer.We then received multiple negative reviews on many different channels. While we value the feedback in some of the reviews it said we are liars. I have reviewed our interaction and believe we have been very honest. This too is a core value of our company. We want to do the right thing to make an excellent customer experience. As stated above the restocking fee will be waived for this order.Feel free to call me at 732-222-7077 x555 if I can be of any assistance.Best Regards,Evan CirelliVice PresidentTEquipent.NET

author: tequipment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2018, 03:54:08 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 06, 2018, 12:01:39 am

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2018, 06:46:34 pm
content: Quote from: tequipment on September 06, 2018, 03:36:36 pmYou can start by getting me myfullrefund, which I still haven't received. I haven't receivedanyrefund yet. You're very good at ignoring my actual complaint in your response. Typical

author: tequipment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2018, 07:26:35 pm
content: The full refund was already processed today. If you do not get it by tomorrow please send me a message.Best Regards,Evan CirelliTEquipment.NET

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2018, 07:39:10 pm
content: Quote from: tequipment on September 06, 2018, 07:26:35 pmWe'll see. I still haven't received any confirmation email with the details of any refunds. I'll take your word for it until tomorrow. So you understand, having to put this much effort in to get a refund that i was promised in the first place, isnotgood customer service. Customer service doesn't end the moment you receive payment.EDIT: Holy crap, I finally got an email. Still waiting on the refund.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 03:41:01 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 06, 2018, 07:39:10 pmDo keep in mind, that banks take funds out of an account in a fraction of a second, but like to putter around when depositing a refund IME.As per TEquipment, I've never run into any issues like this at all. They've always treated me well over multiple orders. The only issue I ever ran into was an order being split into multiple packages due to various bits coming out of two different warehouses. Not a huge deal, but in a critical case, would mean calling them first to be sure of receiving it all at the same time. And they're not the only company that I've run into this with. A rather common occurrence actually.But I digress.It's not in their best interest to try and keep your money (they've done a fair amount of business with EEVBlog members), so just keep an eye on your account.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 11:45:31 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 07, 2018, 03:41:01 amMy issue is with taking a week to do what they said would be a couple of days; lying about it; charging me a restocking fee; only removing the restocking fee after I complained; lying about that; the run-around; conveniently only processing the refund after filing a PayPal dispute; the lack of communication. It's been a crappy experience.I did finally get my refund. Thankfully PayPal isn't as slow as normal banks. I won't be shopping there again, obviously.

author: bluejedi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 01:00:54 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 03, 2018, 03:03:36 pmI made suggestions for adding date/time support here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1756706/#msg1756706While a real (battery backed-up) RTC seems missing it is still possible to periodically obtain date/time via the network and maintain it locally in software. Precise timing of signals is already performed on the scope so maintaining actual time with a resolution of fractions of a second is probably feasible.

author: bugi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 01:56:59 pm
content: Even if there was no RTC, even a running counter (and storing the last value in non-volatile space with all the rest of saved settings/configs) would do wonders. I think this was mentioned somewhere already, along with the example of how many cameras name the photo files (running counter, and not missing the counting even if turned off and card changed). And of course should have a way for the user to reset the counter when desired.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 02:07:32 pm
content: Quote from: bugi on September 07, 2018, 01:56:59 pmMaybe they can come up with a USB RTC for $300 and firmware update with a $200 "Option" to make it work.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 03:35:57 pm
content: I've been using Pico TA131 probes with the Siglent, and they're great. My only complaint is that they have the crap round rubber instead of form-fitted rubber on the ground clip. I pulled out the Siglent probes, and surprisingly, they have the form-fitted rubber on them. So I swapped 'em out and put them on the Picos, and now I'm much happier. The Siglent ground leads fit fine in the Pico probes. Pictured left is obviously the Pico, and right the Siglent ground clips.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 02:48:42 pm
content: I had Amazon exchange my BK PR2000B for another one. This is what the new one looked like out of the box, without adjustment. I'm going to go ahead and say the first one was definitely defective (or at least needed compensation beyond the screw).

author: Sparrow
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 10:45:58 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 26, 2018, 05:27:30 pmAlthough this was mentioned earlier on in the thread, you didn't seem to pick up on it as a positive.Quote from: JS on August 24, 2018, 01:41:44 amThe Siglent'sBode Plottingability could be useful to you when looking at guitar amps.Even if it isn't, surely it has to go on the list ofSiglent Pros.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 10:54:18 am
content: Quote from: Sparrow on September 21, 2018, 10:45:58 amFor you, maybe. But it's only on the list of pros if you have a Siglent AWG, which I don't. How would the bode plotting be helpful with guitar amps? Teach me.

author: SMB784
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 01:29:53 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 21, 2018, 10:54:18 amSomeone here on the message board wrote some code that lets you do bode plotting with a non-siglent AWG, and demonstrated that it can be used with the bode plotting feature

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 01:37:21 pm
content: Quote from: SMB784 on September 21, 2018, 01:29:53 pmI saw that, but it still requires having an AWG and a use for bode plots. I still don't know how bode plots benefits me with guitar amps?I use a simple Tenma 72-505 audio generator for my guitar amps. I would love the excuse to buy an AWG, but currently don't have one.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 02:46:34 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 21, 2018, 01:37:21 pmTo make sure youdon'thave a nice clean output?

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 03:33:53 pm
content: A bode plot expects the DUT to behave linearly (amplitude-wise) -- and that's exactly what you don't want in case of a "classic" guitar amp (not the guitar, the amp that is...). So it's true, the bode plot won't be that useful to you. But the AWG may be useful anyway since you can load samples of guitar chords or even short riffs or whatnot and have that exactly reproducible and accessible on top of your work bench. I'm nut too sure how useful this will be for your work but you may consider it.Cheers,Thomas

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 04:51:55 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 21, 2018, 02:46:34 pmexactly.Quote from: TurboTom on September 21, 2018, 03:33:53 pmOh, now that is an interesting idea. I mean, I could do that with a looper pedal too (of course I already have a couple of those), but doing that with an AWG sounds interesting. I don't know how useful it would be either, but it sounds fun!What AWG models support loading audio samples like that? Or would I have to fake it by generating it from a computer or something?

author: lordvader88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 03:24:45 am
content: Quote from: cprosser on August 19, 2018, 04:23:13 amSo the 1104 can be hooked to a PC and displayed that way too ?I should really invest in 1 of these, it's worth the extra $200 for me I think. I just wish the sds1204 wasn't almost 2x the price of the sds1104

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 03:28:21 am
content: Quote from: lordvader88 on October 24, 2018, 03:24:45 amI'm sure I've linked this in this thread.....maybe not.SDS1104X-E wireless to laptop display also with external 18" monitor.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 03:32:13 am
content: Pretty good response time. Looks like a bad case of VVS, though. What's VVS?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 03:46:57 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on October 24, 2018, 03:32:13 amYep, ditching the phone for vidsand bought a cheap digital camera. Gotta see how the audio pans out.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 03:50:09 am
content: Oh, hope the audio is OK. Of course, you can just rotate the phone.Even though it's been around a while, I still love that VVS video. There's even a G-rated version of it now.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 11:18:44 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 24, 2018, 03:46:57 amYou know phones can be rotated in space, right?It's a hidden feature ofmanyphysical objects that they actually keep on working after rotation (as long as you restrict the rotation to 3D space)

author: vtwin@cox.net
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 08:49:08 pm
content: Quote from: lordvader88 on October 24, 2018, 03:24:45 amA sds1104 easily becomes an sds1204 With 5 minutes of tinkering.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 12:26:54 pm
content: Quote from: lordvader88 on October 24, 2018, 03:24:45 amSaelig has the SDS1204X-E at $759, and the SDS1104X-E at $500. So the 1204 is about 1.5 times the price of the 1104. With the 1204, you get 4 200MHz probes that areextremelywell-matched with the scope.Siglent's storehas them at $27 each, while the 100MHz PP510 probes are $10 each, making the probe difference $68 in total. But if you were to get an 1104 and hack it, you'd need the probes in order to make it truly equivalent, and would thus be out another $108. That would reduce the difference between the two models to about $150.Is it worth $150 to get the additional 100MHz bandwidth without having to fool with hacking the scope (and having to deal with the possibility that Siglent will later revert the hack somehow in a later firmware update)? That really depends on your preferences.Either way, it's a very capable scope for the price, even for the 200MHz version. On balance, the 1204's bang for the buck obviously isn'tquiteas good as the 1104's in light of the option to hack the latter, but it's still very good nonetheless.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 12:39:20 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on October 25, 2018, 12:26:54 pmI don't know if you saw the probe test thread, but the Pico probes were even better than the Siglent probes. I bought 4 of the Picos for $48 shipped on ebay.

author: twinter145
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 01:59:40 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on October 25, 2018, 12:39:20 pmAnd the PP510/PP215 probes are very similar as shown in this post:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665So you shouldn't need to upgrade probes unless you're going for something like the Pico probes.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 02:07:32 pm
content: Quote from: twinter145 on October 25, 2018, 01:59:40 pmExactly the thread I was referring to, thanks. I was too lazy to look for it.BTW- I don't find the Pico probes to be too thick or stiff at all compared to the others. If anything, I like them better.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 03:00:53 pm
content: I'd forgotten about the Pico probes, and certainly wasn't aware of their price. They definitely look like a winner for these scopes.And in light of the performance of the PP510 (which I'd also forgotten just how good it is), hacking the 1104 is easily the most cost effective option.In the end, then, I guess it really just depends on whether or not you're willing to hack your scope. The economics are substantially in favor of it, even though the 1204 is still very good capability for the money.

author: photomankc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 07:20:11 pm
content: Great thread, even with the religious debate and. I wish I had bumped into it prior to my purchase of the Rigol MSO1104Z. I was OK with the reduced sample rate of the Rigol but when I got it out and played with it I was shocked by how sluggish the UI really is. There are hints of it in videos but it is just different when you put hands on it and turn the knobs. It just exceeds what I can live with and I was a little surprised by that. I'm not normally one that quibbles over a tiny bit of lag but it was bothering me a lot.I'm going down the same road. I'm returning the Rigol 1104Z. I just unboxed the SIGLENT 1104X-E and wow the UI difference is amazing. There is a touch of control lag but not bad at all, generally things keep up with the knobs. Velocity sensing on the knobs is nice too but seems prone to going a bit overboard. That will take getting used to. But I like the higher S/sec rate I can keep on 2 channels. That puts it on par (sort of) with my old Rigol DS2202 which has 2Gs/sec but drops to 1 when using both channels. Then I get the bonus of holding 500Ms/sec on 4 channels. That seems more reasonable for a 100Mhz 4 channel. I will likely look at trying to unlock the 200MHz bandwidth and Logic Analyzer capability. I'm fine buying the LA hardware later on.I will say that I am going to miss the buttons on the Rigol and the ease of turning on various measurements. I also like the way all the UI elements point to the active channel. But i think the SIGLENT is the winner for me. I don't mind paying a little extra to get some better specs and a more responsive instrument.

author: jazper
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2018, 08:54:25 am
content: Quote from: vtwin@cox.net on October 24, 2018, 08:49:08 pmIn my experience, having done it (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/msg2048866/#msg2048866) , this is not the case. Blame people poorly documenting the way of doing it.It takes about 30 mins to an hour, depending on whether you know enough about visual studio. Took me longer again cause I needed to grok about 4-5 different ways of doing it and figure out a way I was comfortable with. Some may find it easy/straight forward, but when you have about 20 different ways of skinning a cat, finding the right one for you is all the more difficultThat said, for a hobbyist who needs it, it's worthwhile.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2018, 10:41:15 am
content: Quote from: jazper on December 18, 2018, 08:54:25 amYep. That's why I started that thread, because Siglent users were claiming that unlocking a Siglent was as painless as ulocking a Rigol.The latest method has people creating virtual machines so they can install Visual studio and run a key-generator program. That's progress!

author: jazper
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2018, 11:14:33 am
content: No - the latest version is not running a key generator program.The latest version has people dumping memory and extracting/testing keys using C#. The fact some people are using a virtual machine is irrelevant. It can be done without one, it's just more complicated.One doesn't technically need visual studio, but realistically to label it as a key recovery vs an actual recovery there has to be at least some complication in the process. Seehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/msg1877477/#msg1877477for a non Visual studio way. There's even a hybrid python way, the next post down...There is no doubt in my mind that the Siglent is superior hardware/software even in its stock configuration. More intuitive UI, extra features etc. If you're willing to put more time into the "recovery" the value goes up a fair bit - but it is time, and it is effort. Some people aren't willing to do that.Remember it's not certified at the higher levels either, so most labs won't touch the modified version... Strictly hobbyists.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2018, 11:20:54 am
content: At the simplest level, you need an ethernet cable, a 8 or 32GB usb drive, and a hex editor that lets you search for ascii text, have all 3 and you can find all your option codes in under an hour (I'm extending it out a bit, as people may need to learn how to drive there hex editor), without changing any part of the scope software from stock,dump the memory image to the usb using the SHELLCMD command from the other thread,fire up your hex editor, and search for the same string that the old coredump method had. should be nearby,The findkeys thing just speeds up the bin file searching process but I did not have to use it myself.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2018, 12:34:20 pm
content: Quote from: jazper on December 18, 2018, 11:14:33 amJust get the new Rigol. The hack is simple and you get 350Mhz+, 8GHz sample rate, 400Mpt memory, etc.

author: jazper
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2018, 02:12:12 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 18, 2018, 12:34:20 pmBlah - I'm saying the siglent 1104x-e hardware is better than the Rigol 1054z hardware - It is, even the default specs are better.The software is better too, not that you can't spend time on 3rd party apps etc to bring the Rigol up. It doesn't matter which way you go, ultimately, so long as the tool you have does the job you need it to do.

author: goaty
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2018, 06:38:06 am
content: Don´t know if this has been mentioned, but the Rigol 1054Z has for me one big disatvantage which is this:You cannot decode from segmented memory. Discovered this too late. This would be very useful for decoding serial/SPI/I2C over longer sequences.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2018, 08:25:08 am
content: Quote from: jazper on December 19, 2018, 02:12:12 amAnd I'm saying the DS1054Z doesn't have 350Mhz bandwidth, 8Ghz sample rateor400Mpt memory.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2018, 08:53:06 pm
content: Too much talk and not so much rigour!I can't understand people who spit on what is given to them freely.The fact that the licenses can be recovered from memory allows anyone in any language to devise their way to do it.Have problems with VS, bad luck. Do it in assembly.The recovered licenses are not an hack! Their are as official as they come.The reason why many times simpler methods are not made public is simply to prevent this type of persons from underserved benefits.

author: TheNewLab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2018, 10:53:34 pm
content: Ok this is the lowest price I have seen.https://www.ebay.com/itm/Siglent-SDS1104X-E-4-Ch-100MHz-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/264093083971I actually bought one... ..er another...now I can hack away and not worry about bricking it up

author: Harjit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2018, 11:08:24 pm
content: I think if you buy it from Siglent with the discount from Tautech, it is less than the eBay price + shipping.

author: jazper
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 12:16:58 am
content: Quote from: tv84 on December 19, 2018, 08:53:06 pmtv84 - please don't see what I'm saying as that - I appreciate all the effort you have put into this.All I am saying is that key recovery on the siglent is not a 5 minute process - it is about a 30min-1 hour process at least.

author: hevak
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 30, 2020, 12:43:52 am
content: Just a heads up, Amazon is selling these for $430.88, which seems like a great price.

author: Dave8266
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2020, 04:47:17 pm
content: Quote from: hevak on July 30, 2020, 12:43:52 amThat's tied with the lowest price ever (on Amazon) from this past January, according to Keepa.

author: 0xFFF0
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2020, 05:48:46 pm
content: Does anyone know if there is a successor to the Rigol 1054Z? In the meantime, it is technically somewhat out of date.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2020, 09:36:01 pm
content: Quote from: 0xFFF0 on July 30, 2020, 05:48:46 pmIf cost is an issue then the GW Instek GDS-1054B (after using a key generator to liberate more bandwidth) is a good alternative with much better performance. Depending on where you are the price is about the same compared to the Rigol DS1054Z.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2020, 11:05:25 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 31, 2020, 09:36:01 pmIt's actually cheaper than the Rigol right now and definitely the one to get if you're looking for an entry-level 'scope:https://www.tequipment.net/Instek/GDS-1054B/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?search=true

author: 123rolle
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2022, 07:51:35 pm
content: I've been looking for a first scope. The additional features for waveform generator and MSO function in 1104x-e interest me to go on that direction. Can those be hacked and only thing needed is the hardware? Also are those waveform generator and MSO worth the money or would it be better to just get standalone device for those features? Also is there has been any new good competitors for the siglent scope, i'd be happy to hear. I am located in EU so probably competitors should be found also in EU to be bought.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2022, 08:06:27 pm
content: Quote from: 123rolle on March 19, 2022, 07:51:35 pmWelcome to the forum.BW and licenses can be hacked. SAG1021I is not bad value but SDG1032X a far better choice if you can stretch that far.The X-E MSO HW is another thing and although it works fine it's overpriced IMHO.SDS1104X-E is still a good seller for us and although we often suggest the somewhat cheaper SDS1104X-U the much better feature set of the 4ch X-E's are more attractive to the disconcerting buyer that wants a scope they know they can grow into.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2022, 04:44:36 pm
content: Quote from: 123rolle on March 19, 2022, 07:51:35 pmOh, and another thought, contact your local Finland dealer as he has immense knowledge of the Siglent range and some decades of experience in electronics and the test equipment field.https://siglent.fi/