recent experience shopping for hobby scope in today's market.  tek, rigol, ... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: argile_tile
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 04:50:07 pm
content: I went shopping for a used oscilloscope for hobby: you need it but don't want to give up parts money to have itThis turned out way difficult due to availability, terms of sale, disposable electronics. I want to share some results.all 4 are great. waverate comes at a cost of price and inconvenienceit is good for measurement, also bad for measurement, heavier, more likely to fail. B&K Precision: "Listed bandwidth is of little use if the scope can't trigger due to rise time.". none below have channel isolation (expensive handhelds do, but limits certain measures)(you'll need to make custom (opamp) differentiator per situation need, unless your rich)? Is Tek just outdated and overpriced compared to Keysight and Rigol like Youtube says?. $ 600 Keysight EDUX1052A+ certified in usa- 50 watts max- fan always spins. 7 lb, 12.5 x 6.5 x 5.1 (most compact build of all 3)- 150 VRMS (wall outlet)+ better sales brochures (if your re-selling)- 7ns- 1Gs/s per channel (2G/s for both)+ 100kpts ? 50?. says web based panel - unk if browser mod needed, or use benchvue+ 50k svrate - 10x fast+ > 100k wav/sec update(silgent 100k to 400k "depending on mode" (greedy spec given))- upgradeable at factory ONLY - many features are "2G model only"+ UART (blah) and i2c+ 2 FFT mode (magnitude phase), dual window. unkown if it has color for waveform probability- acquisition 10ns, + on averaging 1-64k? External trigger. (can be used as a 3rd digital channel at the front). 3yr warrantee. extended warrantee expensive, includes only 1 ESD incident? no wifi dongle (but may not need it - may work off-the-shelf)-------. online help (by pdf snapshot) looks plain text mostly, but well done- NO courseware, no way to put (manuals) on your oscope+ has nice learning kit (has courseware only for this)+ free www help.https://github.com/Keysight- no salesperson ready, phone chase - sales called 2 days later- 2G model is on backorder - you can't get one "today"+ Keysight sells well, the 2G is on backorder, used keysight sell. $563 Tektronix TBS1000C+ lower total cost and lower dollars/year on hobby+ certified in usa. 30 watts max+ fanless design (love changing fans in your PC?)+ 4 lb, 19 x 7 x 4.25+ 300 VRMS - both home (240) hvac and 3-phase (208) able+ 2ns rise time (best in low budget class) (bandwidth ineffective if not trig'ed)+ claims freq. accuracy+ claims better triggering ability competitors, idk+ 1Gs/s per channel- 20kpts (each channel) (40?)how limiting idk: 20k is ALLOT for "one capture". read about that before.if (tek, keysight, silgent) is limited by kpt for of (24hr capture of infrequent capture)is another matter entirely- 5k wavrate refresh can't catch as many glitches "visibly"(any rate is too slow to catch all glitches, however)- NO i2c spi hackr stuffs (apparently SoC supports, but not software) (higher models have)has nice demo boards but not easy to FIND on web? tek claims real-time sampling others don't say. is defined by tek as"records all samples at once, stores in 'memory', then repeats"(does that mean ADC is 20kpt?) other brands say nothing about ittek oversampling supported also+ dual window FFT , 2 FFT modes (dbV, RMS), dual window. full 32 measurements shown where taken on curve+ acquisition 4ns, - on ave of 2-256 (is ok, no 16 channel i2c either)+ 5 yr warrantee+ Total Protection Plan best ; $32/yr to stay protected from "some incidents"(comparable to apple care plan is $80/yr)$32/yr to insure you can sell (you have a scope) when upgrade time comes; worth it(doesn't say how many drops or ESD, leaves that in air)- likely doesn't have color for waveform probability+ tek's interface (has always) supports coarse/fine adjustment by nob+ Wifi (w/usb dongle) "for courseware", seen only in tbs2000B ads (unk if off-the-shelf works)-------+ built-in help apparently (by snapshots in pdf) is graphicalhelp can be individually enabled/disabled per topic - nice+ courseware allows adding your own courses - so if you have info youlike to have handy (say, forrest mims guides) ready on the scope w/o using PC100M of courseware can be stored on the scope. scope also has built-in "introduction to osc"+ has nice "demo boards", if you can find them on tek's site or google(they may not be for sale on website - may only come with special offers, idk)+ free www help. some free online resources - ie software AWG/win10.https://github.com/tektronix? did not compare ecosphere (if ks has wider gambut of accessories / equip coverage)- person on phone nice but $80 shipping? oh well+ Tek sells well, even old Tek scopes find buyerschinese scopes (mentioned quickly, not covered much) are good but "not as good". being lower priced makes them well attractive: but the trade-deficit factors say if your in usa they are "save a tiny bit now, cost you features and usa industry closures later". $380 silgent sds1000X+ certified in usa. 25W max (would be a plus but ...)- noisy fan problems, always running? has 84 color for waveform probability, but NOT ON by default ? why ?has "menu transparency" again OFF by default+ > 100k wav/sec - 400k waverate "depending on mode"(questionable if this is better than ks or just a greedy spec). 5.5 lb, 5.91 x 5.28 x 5.91 xxxx 17 x 15 x 10 (largest of all 3)photos show it is not box shaped: the dimensions are WRONG- 3 yr warranty promised - but Amazon says "arrived broken on sale, refused to replace","failed after year, failed after days" (rigol, silgen, f1nsr1, hantek, all really)- "channel isolated spec", but docs warnings conflictingly say NOT ISOLATED, damaged- 20Mhz +- 40% ... that's ALLOT of % "disclosed" what cond is 40% lost? always?- suspicious specs and warrantee-- help looks junky, screen text dump isn't even line formatted !!- no courseware (in english distributions)- despite linux arm ubu open claims is just as secretive as tek and ks. has ubuntu suse "domination ware" support ONLY (other linux are excluded). www help is not much, however it's likely good in chinese. forwardly has linux support: ubuntu suse "domination ware" (other linux are excluded). ok user's manual (not all asian scopes have this)? Keysight DSOX1202G? $1,650 keysight "expensive" is upgradeable (at what ransome, they are ruthless)+ 200k wavrate/sec on DSOX model- upgrade factory only (not really optional)- no used G models - on backorder+ uart, i2c, can, spi, ... (these are on SoC, supported by software) + demo board+ sexier scope - but spec upgrades are really not allot for the money. $350 GW Instek GDS-1054B- not certified in usa. i like the way the hw "looks". boards laid out clean (easy to read) and "less crowded" than otherspcb trace lines wide & easy to follow. accessible to repair. power supply is simple not complicated - repairable+ good fft- no i2c. ok user's manual (not all asian scopes have this)- no courseware (in english distributions)? probably this is a great scope to have if in china or if ubucrat. $329 Rigol DS1054Z- not certified in usa+ nice display / waverate - cost less than silgent+ has i2c spi uart software built-in. does not stand out in any particular way except that it is "as good choice" for asian brands. ok user's manual (not all asian scopes have this)- no courseware (in english distributions)Summary:. comparison shows Tek hasthe best features for some buyersdespite being cheaper than Keysight and more expensive than chinese branded scopes.. I'm budget minded but don't want "un-certified" built things. I figure Tek costs me $75/year, all hobby money out the window, after sale in 5 yr.with warranty to insure i have a unit to sell (defintely cost less than 2 units). I figure Keysight costs me $121/year, money out the window, after sale in 5 yr.(this isn't bad - but it depends how high on the shelf the hobby is). I figure keysight sells for more, but Tek is a strong seller after all.In:= {(738+250+70),((738+250+70-450)/5),250/5}//NOut= {1058.,121.6,50.}In:= {(563+163+50),(563+163+50-400)/5,163/5}//NOut= {776.,75.2,32.6}. I could definitely use the savings. My power source, AWG, part bin: are all under-stockedprices for good ones are enormous.(and that's before considering auto parts if the car dies)A few more shopping isms...I first looked for used. All were so close to new price? Why bother with the definite risk. (many were even marked "no returns" despite being a poor price choice). Two deals I found were "new opened" and "new in box" 15 yr old units. Ok if your flying in the face of "no warranty" with disposable technology (look for keysight power supply replacement: they are not for sale even for new units). But check my cost formula. When I go to sell I got a 20yr old unit and the buy has no clue whether it was new when I got it (a good deal if your never going to sell or willing to take the hit).as for sales, the chinese scopes recently made do find buyers. unsure about older models. suspect (which models) they sell for less than Keysight or Tektronix when sold used. (they cost less and sell lesser).as for china "linux support" claims: i am wary. installing "a particular ubuntu" to make a proprietary binary run is a gamble, timely, boring: ubu is "abandonment" (they kill software that WAS working), and hackers. As for linux / arduino - keysight and tek support (i2c) also (not in tbs1000c but tbs2000c). The chinese scopes don't support arduino (a product of china) except by "forum advertising name dropping". And Pi would take a very expensive scope to analyze (a ridiculous proposition unless you own the company and profits are high this year). I should say I'm not an "arduino hacker" and also don't believe low-end scopes i2c support would be good for debugging. It would be "doing it the hard way". It takes a full PC based software "to know much", which wouldn't be needed if wave forms looks good on a regular scope UNLESS it's a software issue: which is better resolved using software not a scope.Tek and Keysight mention linux and also have github downloads - they are not completely anti-linux.All of the above have "expensive much better models", none are from small companies.One last good note for Tek and cost saving. I watched EEVBlog and Signal Path (youtube) and noticed: they don't use the good (on loan) scopes unless showcasing (advertising) or the measurement requires it. They ususally uses the cheapest scope that is nice to work with. Much safer. This plays into the hobbyist need to "buy an expensive upgrade that is still miles behind 50Ghz". It's probably not a good idea to spend "ones total hobby budget" on a scope that "just isn't ground breaking".

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 07:16:52 pm
content: Wow, just wow......never seen someone overthink a DSO purchase so.Many here will advise to get a $500 Asian scope and be done with it as for most features they leave western DSO's in their wake.A correction if I may:QuoteIs discontinued.2ch replacement SDS1202X-E4ch replacement SDS1104X-E or 200 MHz model SDS1204X-EPlease don't purchase precision test equipment from Amazon when instead countrywide distributor networks exist and provide better support.https://siglentna.com/how-to-buy/

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 10:41:01 pm
content: This is just all justification as to why you bought a TekTBS1000. Which is fine, if you want to buy it go for it. But in terms of features per dollar its on the low end of whats out there.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tektronix-tbs1000c-released/Also you claim Rigol is "-not certified in usa", which I doubt is true.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 10:52:28 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 23, 2023, 10:41:01 pmWithout knowing the OP's use case, there is absolutely no good advise to give.

author: Zenith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 11:30:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 23, 2023, 10:52:28 pmExactly. The sensible answer might be a Hameg 20MHz 203-4/5/6/7 solid state scope available on ebay for about 50 £/$/€ or less. No bragging rights, but a serviceable instrument within its limits.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2023, 12:14:30 am
content: Quote from: Zenith on February 23, 2023, 11:30:04 pmSure but they already spent $600 on the Tek, so they clearly have more than $50 to spare.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2023, 12:52:14 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 23, 2023, 10:52:28 pmIt's fairly obvious what the OP's 'use case' is and I dare say he made quite reasonable choice. It will be some time before (if ever) he realizes what 20K memory and 5K wfm mean or why they matter. And in the meantime, he'll have a nice set of educational pop-up windows to refer to.His post is mostly a massive mishmash of miscellanous misinformation though. But there's no need for a blow-by-blow of that.

author: Zenith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2023, 12:53:54 am
content: It seems a bit like discussions about SLR cameras in the 60s/70s/80s with magazines dedicated to dissecting the differences between them.As nctnico pointed out, without knowing the requirements of the o/p, it's no use giving exact advice.It's the o/p's wad and if he gets satisfaction from blowing more than $600 on a scope that's up to him. Others may think it's sensible or not, as the case may be.

author: argile_tile
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2023, 09:45:03 am
content: Oh. OP isn't going to argue anything. The post is for fun. Do you worst!

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2023, 12:38:09 pm
content: Quote from: argile_tile on February 24, 2023, 09:45:03 amSo you posted to waste our time.Thanks for clarifying..Enjoy your new scope.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2023, 12:13:45 am
content: Can't believe the crying about having to read something. I've seen it all...OP: if you are truly in the US, then used is the way to go. You'll get great deals and feel good about the money you saved. Ebay is a good place for this, but there are other places you can find used equipment and many ebay sellers have their own website where the same items are quite a bit cheaper.I recently got a Keysight DSOX2004A and liberated it to an MSOX2024A+everything and it was only $700. It seems like bragging, but it shows that the deals are out there. There are a LOT of scopes that can be liberated, but doing that on a new scope is perhaps less than ideal.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2023, 10:05:55 am
content: Quote from: J-R on February 25, 2023, 12:13:45 amIt is general attitude and not the only topic like that ... That is why I commented.Quote from: J-R on February 25, 2023, 12:13:45 amGood advice for people that have some patience and knowledge...But it could be argued that for 700 USD MSOX2024A is not better scope than what you can get from Rigol or Siglent new for that kind of money..As always, there is no single solution.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2023, 03:23:12 pm
content: I'm not saying the OP made a "wrong choice" but he certainly seemed to make it based on inaccurate information. GI-GOThe scope of his choice is the sort of thing you'd find on the bench in a community college and it seems it's specifically made for that market. Not much in the features department and only basic low spec functionality. If he is just starting out it might serve him well, but at quite a high cost for what he's getting. His idea that Tek sells well might be true, but I don't think many will be lining up to buy that particular model. There are plenty of 10-20 year old brand name scopes on the used market that will handily blow that unit away in performance for a lot less money.A used 50MHz boat-anchor student model based on stale technology that has spent the last 5 years in the hands of a .. "learner" .. would quite honestly be the last thing on my shopping list.But to each their own, I guess.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 01:32:52 am
content: In my opinion the OP made the non-optimal choice based on wrong and/or optimistic assumptions, sprinkled with lack of knowledge about modern oscilloscopes.In my experience, any of the $400~500 mainstream models of the major Chinese brands (RigSigGwi) blows the chosen model out of the water. The Tek was up to date two decades earlier.

author: jasonRF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 03:18:40 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 24, 2023, 12:52:14 amAgreed. In fact, the lack of features may make it also easier to learn to use than a more full-featured scope. Once they learn more, if they decide they want more features they can sell it and get something more capable.I am just a hobbyist and my nicer picoscope can support all of the analysis I will ever need, but I really hate fan noise so if I ever decided to get a bench scope I would probably want something like the Tek. I would only consider used - the 1052B sometimes goes for $250ish or less on ebay. Would rather do that than spend the same amount on a new fanless Owon.jason

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 03:57:55 am
content: Quote from: argile_tile on February 23, 2023, 04:50:07 pmThe Tektronix TBS1000C supports delayed triggering so the 20k sample points can be moved to a later part of the waveform after the trigger. This is the equivalent of delayed sweep in an older oscilloscope which effectively allows horizontal magnification of the waveform.Quote"Real time" in this case means that all channels sample at their maximum rate no matter how many channels are active. Turning on more channels does not lower the sample rate of each channel.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 08:44:35 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 26, 2023, 03:57:55 amReal time simply mean this is not repetitive sampling oscilloscope (i.e. it samples at real 2 GS/s rate, not equvalent rate).And 20kpoint is very little or enough memory, depending on what you do. If you spend life using scope at short timebases looking at repetitive signals at higher frequencies it might be enough. Large memory helps with aliasing problems, it helps keep that sampling rate high while at longer timebase...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 10:24:42 am
content: For as long as a scope has peak detect mode, aliasing is not a problem at all. With short memory, you can't zoom in though to see if a small blib that pops up suddenly is something interesting or not.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 01:53:30 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 26, 2023, 08:44:35 amTektronix does not use "Real Time" to mean that at all. Many of their previous "real time" DSOs also supported equivalent time sampling, including their earliest "real time' DSOs like the 2400 series. It only means that sample rate (and record length) is independent of the number of channels.QuoteMy point is that the delayed triggering capability makes up for the short record length in most cases, and it has nothing to do with repetitive signals; it works fine in single sweep acquisition mode. The TBS1000C can view portions of a waveform at high sample rates at any point after the trigger, where DSOs without this feature are limited by their record length.

author: zrq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 02:17:22 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 26, 2023, 01:53:30 pmYou are right if the interesting short time feature is appearing repetitively at a predictable interval after some triggerable event. Which is arguably not so common.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 02:55:16 am
content: Quote from: zrq on February 26, 2023, 02:17:22 pmThe more useful feature, which all of the DSOs under discussion lack, is trigger after delay, which is what you get with a dual delayed timebase with two sweeps and two triggers.After the first trigger, there is an adjustable delay, and then a second trigger produces the acquisition. For instance when probing a switching power supply, this allows locking onto the reverse recovery waveform even in the presence of jitter.In the past this was used to trigger at the start of a video frame, and then select a horizontal line to display with no jitter. No amount of record length can correctly display that in real time; it requires the second trigger.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 05:29:52 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 27, 2023, 02:55:16 amIf you wanted an entry-level scope with retro features, the elderly but still produced Siglent SDS1102CML actually is sort of interesting. It doesn't have an explicit B-sweep or B-trigger, but it does have trigger delay and I think you could manage something close using the alternate trigger, some holdoff and the rather odd dual-timebase feature where each channel can have independent horizontal settings. You would have to feed the signal into both channels, which is somewhat of a gnarly probing issue, and I haven't tried it so I'm just speculating. Other retro features include the 50GSa/s ETS and video triggering.You're right that trigger delay is limited by record length, but that can be many thousands of divisions depending on your scope and setup.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 07:42:39 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 27, 2023, 02:55:16 amOf course even the cheap digital scopes have that functionality. On SDS1000X-E it is called interval trigger.You have one trigger satisfied, then time limit and then when second trigger comes in, you capture the buffer.On cheap DS1000Z you have similar Delay trigger and N-th edge trigger, where you can choose both time delay and number of edges.On more expensive scopes more sophisticated version is called Qualified trigger, where you can actually mix and match trigger types.For video you have video triggers.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 03:11:09 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 27, 2023, 07:42:39 amUsually they have something, but it is not as flexible, and in Rigol's case they outright lied in their documentation deliberately confusing their delayed trigger, which was not even that, with what older oscilloscopes provided with a delayed sweep.QuoteOld oscilloscopes with video triggering still worked as I described, so their video trigger is not like a modern scope but instead only extracted the video trigger from the video waveform. Modern instruments with video triggers allow the video line to be selected, although that feature goes back to at least the 1980s so it has been around for a while. Before that some oscilloscopes provided countdown trigger capability, but I doubt it was ever used for video, although it could have been.

author: zrq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 03:38:16 pm
content: I don't want to derail this thread further. I don't really understand, which feature is available on the TBS1000C but not SDS1000X-E ?Maybe more security of firmware is one example of such a feature, (AFG31000 seems to be based on the same platform, and I'm not sure if it's Secure Boot or some softer checks that maybe bypassed by, for example open case and use JTAG)https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tektronix-afg-31000-hack/msg3211768/#msg3211768.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 07:07:17 pm
content: Quote from: zrq on February 27, 2023, 03:38:16 pmThe TBS1000C has the equivalent of a dual delayed sweep which allows capture and magnification of the waveform *after* the trigger even when it is outside of its record length, which makes up somewhat for its lack of record length. The other DSOs make up for this with long record lengths, but can only show the waveform within the limits of their record length. This means that the short record length of the TBS1000C is not as much of a disadvantage as it otherwise would be.So for instance the SDS1000X-E has a record length of 8 Msamples, which means at 1 GS/s it can display the wave at up to 3 milliseconds after the trigger. The TBS1000C can do the same thing despite having only 20 Ksamples, and can go much beyond 3 milliseconds.Both DSOs describe something called "trigger delay" in their documentation, but they are referring to very different things. On the Tektronix (page 72), the trigger delay delays the acquisition like a delayed trigger or delayed sweep would. On the Siglent (page 37), the trigger delay has nothing to do with a delay, and is simply the difference in time between the trigger point and what is shown on the screen. On the Tektronix, this is called magnification.This is another example of a Chinese oscilloscope company deliberately lying about a feature their DSO lacks.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 07:13:32 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 27, 2023, 07:07:17 pmYet for the vast majority of work 14 Mpts SDS1000X-E has would swamp the capabilities of a similar Tek.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 07:16:06 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 27, 2023, 07:07:17 pmI don't have the TBS1000C, but I have a similar-era Tek with a similar (one generation earlier?) ASIC and I'm not clear on the 'dual delayed sweep' statement. Mine will do a fixed delay after trigger, but it doesn't display both the A and B sweep like earlier scopes, nor do I see how it could since it doesn't have the memory available to do so. Is the TBS1000C like this or have they done something else?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 07:29:49 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 27, 2023, 07:16:06 pmNot all dual delayed sweep oscilloscopes display both the A and B sweep simultaneously. If they do, then it is referred to as "alternate dual delayed sweep", which was a later innovation that DSOs tended not to copy.The TBS1000C operates exactly like a dual delayed sweep oscilloscope in runs-after mode. So the first sweep starts after the trigger, there is an adjustable delay, and then the second sweep starts and acquires 20k sample points. Both sweeps are completely independent like a dual sweep oscilloscope, but only one of them is displayed at a time. On the TBS1000C, it means that a 1 GS/s aquisition can be make way after the trigger point beyond the point where these other DSOs could do it.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 07:32:52 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 27, 2023, 07:13:32 pmUnless you wanted to capture and display a 1 GS/s acquisition beyond 6 milliseconds, and the TBS1000C is still has modern features despite its short record length.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 09:05:06 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 27, 2023, 07:29:49 pmThis is something you can do with any DSO. Just move the screen with the horizontal position control (which equals trigger pre/post delay). This is exactly how setting the trigger delay is described in the TBS1000C user manual BTW. On some DSOs (like the modern ones from R&S) you can specify the horizontal position by entering a number. However, there is a difference between various brands. On Lecroy and Siglent you are limited to a couple of thousand horizontal divisions, on other DSOs the maximum value is typically little over 1 second. The latter makes it possible to visualise jitter on 1 PPS signals from which the edges are far apart.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 09:20:56 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 27, 2023, 07:32:52 pmWith due all respect, no it does not.It is utterly outdated. Even Tek themselves didn't dare to even compare it to Rigol DS1000Z, but to an very old and very outdated DS1000E.All comparisons are against scope designs older than 10 years.TBS1000C has 4 operations waveform math, no statistics on measurements, no segmented capture, no decodes, no active probe interface, only 2 ch.... And yes that very short memory is significant flaw.It is literally worth 200 USD in comparison to other scopes you can have. You can buy SDS1104X-E or MSO5000 that make it look like a cheap chinese Finrsi.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 10:01:26 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 27, 2023, 09:05:06 pmSo of course I had to try this on the SDS2104X+. On a 1pps signal I can delay the trigger by 1 second on a timebase up to 100µs/div, so 10k divisions or 1000 screens worth, all at a full 2GSa/s (which means that it is not, in fact, limited by record length, which surprised me a bit). However, I can stack that with the zoom feature and dial in down to any available timebase, even 1ns/div if I like. That would be a hundred million screens worth. The screenshot is at 5ns/div, so 200 million divisions, with the actual delay finely adjusted as shown in about the middle of the screen. Obviously the accuracy is limited by the clock, an external clock is a big help here on those scopes up the food chain that have it.I don't know what the upper limit is, but I was able to set the scope up for a delay of a full hour (displayed as 3.6ksec) with a reduced sampling rate and a maxium of 10 seconds to get the full 2GSa/s, zoomable to 1ns/div. So it appears that 10 billion divisions of delay is the limit.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 10:19:04 pm
content: Yup, that's what deep memory is all about.Simple ain't it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 10:26:02 pm
content: Problem is that 100us/div or even 5ns/div is not very interesting for checking a 1PPS signal (which should be rather obvious...). Things get interesting for me at 200ps/div (or less). The Lecroy Wavepro 7k which I have is pretty difficult to use for these kind of measurements though (max. delay 2us; the Siglent scopes suffer from the same limitation) while the Agilent Infiniium 54845A I used to have was much better at it because it allowed over 1 second of delay. So even though the 54845A only has 64k points per channel and far less capabilities compared to 48Mpts and analysis feature of the Wavepro 7k, the first is better suited for certain measurements. I kind of regret selling it. Bottom line is: you can't go around saying an instrument with more options is alway better. The one feature you need might be missing. Quality over quantity.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 10:43:00 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 27, 2023, 10:26:02 pm100µS is just the first step of two. As I stated and showed, you can expand that to 1ns/div, which is the fastest available for this model. If you want to look at 1pps at 200ps/div with any sort of BW and time accuracy that makes that worthwhile, you need a much faster scope with a much better clock. But there is no software or other limitation with Siglent keeping you from using whatever capabilities the scope has to full advantage and you aren't limited by record length.SDS1104X-E is the same story. You can have up to a 10 second trigger delay with full sampling speed (that's 1000X the record length for delay) and fastest timebase available. It isn't as convenient and you do have to twiddle knobs and the time display only goes to 6 digits and so on, but there it is.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 10:44:58 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 27, 2023, 10:19:04 pmWell, to be accurate, it isn't based on deep memory although it helps in the acquisition end. The available delay is 1000X as long as the record length. Now I'm wondering about the interval trigger.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 11:04:10 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 27, 2023, 10:44:58 pmYou'll be a while exploring all the features even the little X-E has.Here's one I did years back using the Search and Trigger features:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717An old saying comes to mind....there's more than one way to skin a cat < whoever would want to, maybe only Mr Jones.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2023, 12:09:39 am
content: The Siglent manual is very specific. Is it wrong? On page 37:When changing the horizontal delay, the delay time displayed in the informationbar at the top of the screen changes in real time, indicating the distance betweenthe time reference point and the trigger point. The amount of delay range availabledepends on the time/div selected and memory depth.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2023, 12:41:04 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 28, 2023, 12:09:39 amThat statement appears to be technically correct in that the available settings 'depend' on the other parameters, but the inference that the scope can only work by continuously recording samples from the trigger point to the end of the selected delay clearly appears to be wrong unless there is a lot of extra memory in there. The scopes apparently do have more memory than the bare minumum suggested by their specs, but I doubt it is enough to cover the length of time and sampling rates shown in the example I posted. I was unaware that my Siglent scopes had that ability until today--I've never had reason to dial in that much delay and like you, I would have assumed I could only push the trigger point off the left of the screen by one record length. It never occurred to me that I could push it out by a full hour!Edit: On the SDS2104X+, the maximum trigger delay is 10Ms, or about 115 days. The acquisition would be 1ks/div, or about 3 hours per screen at 20kSa/s. It does say "Slow Acquisition" on the screen....

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2023, 01:25:57 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 28, 2023, 12:41:04 amWe first saw this from History captures however there's no hard and fast rule as to how much larger it is that the datasheet memory depth spec.SDS1004X-E and SDS5000X offer nice surprises in this regard:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2786800/#msg2786800

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2023, 01:31:58 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 28, 2023, 12:41:04 amBut it is still weird that there is a limit of 10000 divisions. This seems to be copied straight from Lecroy as well (like no zooming out) for no good reason.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2023, 02:11:41 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 28, 2023, 01:31:58 amYes, there seems to be a sort of 'that's the way it happened' rather than 'we designed in a useful feature' situation. I can't imagine they would take a design that had a maximum trigger delay of 11 days and say "gee, let's make it 10X as long just in case..." And it's not memory, you can manually reduce the memory depth and not change the timing. However, the 10k division limit is meaningless when you factor in zoom. Even on that 115-day acquisition, I can zoom in up to 50µs/div, which seems to be deliberately and sensibly set at one sample per division--no point in zooming in more than that.

author: argile_tile
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2023, 12:37:41 pm
content: from OPLaught all you want I returned itAlthough I did like my choice. Something came up.Turns out the "care free warranty" bought with the scope didn't arrive with it. 4-8 wk wait due to some distributor hang up.Without the warranty it was too risky for me. Is it $750/yr or $75/yr? Does their regular warranty dept cheat like some other brands? idk. idk.(un-repairability and 0 warranty make scope shopping difficult: i checked Keysight EDU: their ps have a part number but NOBODY sells them. ps built around a custom ic 5layer, if it dies then you need a good one to even hope to build one, and so on you all know the story. compare to LED tv with PS in separate box replaceable at BestBuy - you know if your LED tv needs a PS then your not out a gambled $500, is the answer there)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2023, 12:46:58 pm
content: @argile_tile: you are way to worked up about warranty and repairability. In modern test equipment failures are extremely rare. There are not much parts in it and nothing runs really hot. And if something fails, it is usually power related which is easy to fix. Even without a schematic as power supply stuff is as generic as it gets.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2023, 02:44:02 pm
content: Quote from: argile_tile on March 02, 2023, 12:37:41 pmThe 5-year warranty from Tek wasn't enough? The odds of it failing in the first decade are really low and the odds that Tek would renege on their warranty is even lower. Unless they were acquired by Keysight, which seems unlikely at this point.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2023, 06:25:21 pm
content: As others have said, repairability is not really a differentiation factor among modern equipment, thus one needs other criteria to make a decision. The sudden realization of the immense gap in important features highlighted in this thread probably caused the OP to have a change of heart.At any rate, get one oscilloscope that meets your current needs and, if in the future you feel the need for something else, pivot and make a different decision then. Aspects such as resale value and sheer durability are too volatile over the lifespan of such products to add any deterministic weight to the decision.

author: zrq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2023, 09:43:31 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 02, 2023, 12:46:58 pmI would politely suggest otherwise. More or less modern test equipments do fail in irreparable ways. I heard some KS3446xA can have dying SOCs and no one in the world except KS can repair them. I also noticed there are a few users on this forum have dead Tektronix DMM4050/Fluke 8846A and even experts like TiN cannot repair some of them despite significant amount of posted work.Of course, Chinese brands are very likely not going to be better in terms of this (except that for me, I can talk to a rep in my native language rather than English).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2023, 09:55:46 pm
content: Quote from: zrq on March 02, 2023, 09:43:31 pmOf course, but higher integration (single PCB, three or four big chips) ismuchmore reliable than a box full of interconnected PCBs with backplanes and dozens of smaller chips, many of them custom made for a particular device).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 12:03:29 am
content: Quote from: zrq on March 02, 2023, 09:43:31 pmActually these can be fixed by replacing the chip which is available commercially. But there are always pieces of test equipment that use custom parts. It has been that way since the invention of the silicon chip but nowadays it looks like less custom parts are used (except in really high-end gear) and parts are being run at much lower temperatures. Overall test equipment has become massively more reliable. Don't get discouraged by a few exceptions that affect only a small portion of the total number of devices sold.