Another ebay noise source - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / rf-microwave

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2020, 08:46:53 pm
content: I saw this in an EDN article a few days ago and ordered one for $27.83 including tax. The screen shot showed it fairly flat and it came in a nice aluminum case. It arrived today.When I first tested it at the specified 12 V, I was mehh.But when I tried some lower voltages it improved. And after a bit of fiddle at 9.3-9.4 V I got this.So I switched to 2 dB/div for this.I'm not sure my 8560A is flat from 1 MHz to 2.9 GHz to within 1 dB. I'll be very interested to look at this on my 8566B when I get it set up.It's rather surprising that it's specified to 2 GHz, but performs well to 2.9 GHz. The only improvement I can think of is an adjustable voltage regulator.RegEdit: Major FAIL by Reg!I was running just above the noise floor of the 8560A. The BG7TBL required a 40 dB attenuator to avoid blowing out my SDRplay RSP2. This was before I bought the 8560A. So I was being very careful not to blow out the 8560A front end.I looked more closely at the circuit. It's got an LM317 set to 7.2 V driving the diode, but the 3 transistor amplifier is being fed the full input voltage which explains the large changes in output level with input voltage. In fact it only goes to 1.35 GHz (-3 dBm), but after lining the case with RF absorber at 10 V in it's flat to 0.5 dBm up to 1 GHz.

author: spongella
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2020, 12:45:00 am
content: Thanks for the info,just got one myself, want to try it for return loss testing. There is a YouTube Video on using the noise source as a substitute for a tracking generator that gave me the idea.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2020, 02:43:37 am
content: Glad you found it useful.This is the article that induced me to buy one:https://www.edn.com/use-a-low-cost-noise-source-as-a-replacement-for-a-tracking-generator/There are a lot of YouTube videos on the subject of varying quality.I have one of the BG7TBL units which is rather mediocre plus a couple of others from someone in the UK which cost a good bit more, but are quite good.The BG7TBL is OK if you are using an SDR as a spectrum analyzer, but if you have something with a greater span, they are not very useful.I was impressed by the performance of these, but a bit disappointed that the designer didn't put in a voltage regulator that could be adjusted for a flat spectrum and set at the factory. It would easily be worth an extra $10-15 to have a voltage regulator trimmed at the factory for flattest response usnig a calibrated SA with a plot included for each device. Let's hope that someone will do that.A properly calibrated noise source is too expensive (>$1000) for most people. But a spectrum amplitude or power plot from a calibrated SA would suffice for hobby work.After my adventures with the BG7TBL "nose source' this was a a real delight.Have Fun!Reg

author: profdc9
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2020, 11:49:36 pm
content: Do you have a schematic or know what kind of diode it uses for the noise?

author: spongella
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2020, 11:35:21 am
content: rhb your results concur with mine, I see a flatter response at approx. 9VDC. My spec analyzer goes up to 1.8 Gigs though. In conjunction with a directional coupler I hope to conduct some return loss measurements on my different antennas with and without an antenna tuner. I would only need to look at frequencies from about 1 MHz - 148 MHz Am in no hurry though.profd79, no documentation comes with the noise source but I may open it up and see. Perhaps Googling the net will yield what diode is used.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 12:58:14 am
content: I had an HP 8970B noise figure meter and 346B noise source arrive yesterday. It was a bit of an adventure as it was throwing various errors when I powered it up, but I eventually got it so it appears to work properly.I have no idea if I can actually do this, but it seems to me I should be able to calibrate the 8970B using the table on the 346B and then measure the ENR of the Chinese units at various voltages to +/- 0.25 dB for comparison to my 8560A traces. If that is the case, I have 4 budget noise sources I'll examine in detail.I'm not sure when that will happen, but as it does I'll post updates here. IIRC I did not have the range of test gear I have now available when I tested the BG7TBL "nose source". And I bought a couple of low cost sources from a UK firm after that.I'm off to play guitar.Have Fun!Reg

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 09:34:17 pm
content: I found some HPAK app notes about noise source calibration. Done properly it requires a VNA and a noise figure meter or spectrum analyzer. I've got all that, but I'd like to find a low budget approach. I think that a nanoVNA and an 8-12 bit SDR ought to be able to do a decent job if one works out the correct procedure. The HPAK recommended procedure requires a calibrated noise source. That's a bit too steep for an EE grad student. But it might be possible to use the school noise source. Better yest would be a first principles solution.cf. Keysight 5988-7229 & 5089-8056 app notesI've got an SDRplay RSP2, but in the spirit of minimum budget T&M kit, I think I'll get an RTL-SDR.RTL-SDR $30LCR/transistor Tester $20nanoVNA $45noise source $30Total $125It will take some DIY bits and serious thought to get good results from that, but it's probably much better than what the first people working on the devices had available with the resources of large corporations.Add a DSO (e.g. Rigol DS1202Z-E) , a cheap AWG (e.g F***Tech FY6800) and a DMM and it's a rather complete EE lab for around $500. I would have gladly bled for that when I was in grad school in the late 80's.So what can be done with the above list of stuff? How do you do it? Enquiring minds want to know.Have Fun!Reg

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2020, 06:16:44 pm
content: I blew my initial eval *really* badly. Sigh. I was just above the noise floor of the 8560A when I got the flat looking response but failed to notice that which I should have.The circuit is pretty standard, a diode, 3 transistor amplifier and an attenuator. It has an LM317G regulating the diode supply which on mine is set to 7.2 V. The transistor supply is the input voltage which explains the variation in behavior with input voltage.I lined mine with RF absorbing foam. At 10 Vdc input it's flat to within 0.5 dB up to 1 GHz and then rolls off steeply reaching -3 dB at 1.35 GHz and -11 dB at 2 GHz. It rolls off smoothly up to 2.9 GHz which is the limit of the 8560AFirst the foam lining job. I'm not sure this made much difference, but I had the material so I put it in. I should have taken spectra at 10, 11 & 12 V before and after but I didn't think to do that.Next the output spectrum at 1 dB/div at various input voltages.12 V input:11 V input:10 V input:For under $30 it's actually pretty good. But something of a design fail to not have included a 2nd regulator and to specify it as 12 V input. The transistors are clearly getting rather non-linear above 10 V. And in typical cheap Chinese tradition, the spec is bogus and should read 1 GHz instead of 2 GHz.I could not see a marking on the diode and the transistor markings had been sanded off.I ordered a couple of RTL-SDR dongles, a V 2 and a V 3. So more fun when those arrive.Have Fun!Reg

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2020, 11:49:02 pm
content: This has been a considerable education in using the 8560A. There are enough parameter options to make it difficult to anticipate what will work best in conveying what is going on.I *think* the noise spike at 13 kHz is the LM317, but have not verified that yet.Here are a few more SA sweeps all at 5 dB/div and 10 V input. The only thing changing is the start and stop frequencies:But fun with cheap toys.RegEdit: I have now verified that the 13 kHz spike is the LM317.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2020, 02:41:58 am
content: I made this sweep for a friend who is into MW DXing. Since it took 2 hours to collect, I thought I'd add it here.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2020, 01:45:16 am
content: For convenience and to make the comparison as close as possible, here is the BG7TBL "nose" source at 10 V input with the SA parameters as close as possible to post #8. I don't see any point to reproducing post #9.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2020, 02:28:54 pm
content: Some time ago I bought this noise source with discount coupon:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32845101232.htmlit cost me about 9 USD and works pretty good.There is a small issue below 1.5 MHz, but above that it works very well

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2020, 03:56:54 pm
content: Well, for that price I'd like to get one. Err, *strictly* for academic research purposes. I do *not* have a TEA problem. I *really* needed the HP 4145B & 16058A semiconductor test set I bought yesterday. Honest. ;-)Unfortunately, they don't accept PayPal.I'm really at the limits of what I can test with the 8560A on this unit. Here are 1000 trace averages from 200 kHz to 1 GHz at 1 dB/div.First, the noise floor of the 8560A:The new noise source over the same range:And finally from 200 kHz to 1.5 GH:The 8560A has not had a cal in a long time so I have no idea what the true deviation from flat is. That's actually one of my goals, automated full cals every year of all my gear from a minimum number of externally calibrated devices.The next step will be to calibrate the 8970B and repeat the measurements with it as well as determine what the amplitude test and calibration procedure is for the 8560A.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2020, 04:28:08 pm
content: A couple more photos at 5 dB/div and 10 trace average with default RBW to see what the ENR is across the 1 MHz to 2.9 GHz range.The noise floor with power off:And then power on at 10 V:

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2020, 02:32:51 am
content: Reg,Have you tried using the noise marker functionality available on your spectrum analyzer? This will show you the noise level at the marker, normalized to a 1 Hz bandwidth and is a more accurate characterization of the actual noise floor.https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=703435&nid=-35183.0.00&id=703435

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2020, 03:12:35 pm
content: Having bought an 8970B & 346B I thought my time would be better spent learning to use it than using the 8560A for detailed measurements.With a full cal, the 8970B is supposed to be accurate to +/- 0.15 dB which is rather better than the +/- 1 dB accuracy specified for the 8560A. Even without a full cal it's supposed to be accurate to 0.25 dB.I have used the marker some, but mostly just to determine frequencies such as the presumed LM317 noise at 13 kHz.I've built a GPIB controller based on WaveyDipole's AR488. So I think automating calibration and characterization of noise sources with the 8970B has more benefit long term. That should allow me to check the 8560A.A major effort of mine is a system of switches and attenuators under GPIB control to do an automated annual lab cal. I've got most of the relays, bulkhead connectors and such. I'll probably use something like a 16501A chassis to hold all of it so it looks at home with all the other HP gear. Goal is to use a minimum set of standards with external calibration either commercial, the USA Cal Club or some mix of the two.The main reason I've been using the SA for this is it's set up for use. And it also provides a good display with no extra effort.I'd not looked up the 8560A amplitude spec until a few minutes ago, but obviously there is no way to tell if the apparent variation in output level is the noise source or the SA. That's quite remarkable for a $28 ebay gadget. It just needs a 2nd LM317 to regulate the input and a barrel plug to BNC-F so I can connect it to the 28 V pulsed output of the 8970B. Probably easiest to put that in a separate box. I don't have any PCB design tool skills and thru hole would be somewhat difficult to fit in the available space. But perhaps someone sells a little LM317 based adjustable regulator board.Have Fun!Reg

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 05:16:24 am
content: That's fair. If you have the right tool for the job, better to use it. Thanks to this thread, I'm now working on falling down yet another TEA rabbit hole.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 03:00:23 pm
content: These are my objectives for this project:1) calibrate a full span SA sweep using an RTL-SDR or nanoVNA2) measure noise figure using an RTL-SDR or nanoVNA3) calibrate full span amplitude performance of the nanoVNA4) calibrate cable attenuation measurements with the RTL-SDR or nanoVNAwith comparisons to HP kit performing the same tasks and detailed evaluation of the noise source performance. Flatness, stability, temperature coefficient, etc.I think with modest effort and changes this diode noise source should be capable of 0.5 dB or better accuracy from 200 kHz to 1 GHz. I'm hoping to persuade the OEM to add voltage regulation for the transistors and a calibration table and stay under a $50 price point. Perhaps add a thermistor and an FET or two to temperature compensate the voltage regulators if needed. I suspect that is not actually needed though and that it will be stable enough once warmed up. Unlike the BG7TBL unit, this one does not get hot.Have Fun!Reg

author: spongella
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2020, 12:37:35 pm
content: Well I have attempted using the noise source in lieu of a tracking generator to make return loss measurements. No luck, even though a YouTube video shows differently. I connected the noise source to a return loss bridge, HF antenna and used a spectrum analyzer and a SDR-dongle to view the response. The noise source is definitely working but I see no differences when I attach the antenna. I am using a 50 Ohm dummy load as a reference.I will try to take a picture of how I attached all the components together and will not rule out the fact that I messed up hi hi. Thanks.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2020, 12:57:32 pm
content: Quote from: spongella on May 03, 2020, 12:37:35 pmI just don't see the point of this approach (or even a tracking generator) when you can simply build a one port VNA for under $20 in parts (if you forgo having a display and port 2). ADF4350 x2, resistive bridge, IAM-81008 mixer, and STM32F103/GD32F103 with built in ADC will do the job far better than even a decent SA + TG setup.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2020, 06:18:20 pm
content: The real point is to master the physics, mathematics and technological limitations of various techniques. There are a lot of "obsolete" methods which are very much worth understanding and being able to apply. You can almost always buy a solution, but knowing how to use what you already have is much more fun. And can be critical if your time frame or budget doesn't allow buying an instrument designed for the task.To paraphrase someone's sig with reference to sail planes. "There is no substitute for span." "Yes, there is. Skill and imagination. But you can buy span."I very much cherish my knowledge of machining set up techniques from over 120 years ago. They may be too time consuming for regular industrial use today, but they also provide the key to achieving accuracies which are hard to get even today.I rather doubt that the ADF4350 mashup will equal an HP 8560A. Needs some low pass filters. I'd love it if that were true. That's somethingt I want to see on the market.Show everyone and post all the data to reproduce it and I'll pay you twice the BoM via PayPal for something that simply works and 5x if it beats an 8560A w/ TG. Even more if it gets cloned to the extent of the $20 LCR/transistor tester and the nanoVNA.Have Fun!Reg

author: profdc9
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2020, 07:08:01 pm
content: Perhaps something like this?https://www.ebay.com/itm/Quality-RF-Spectrum-Analyzer-Tracking-Generator-33MHz-4400MHz-D6-ADF4351-VFO/113948968426It just needs decent software.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2020, 09:12:01 pm
content: Unlikely. The ADF435x are square wave sources. So you need two with low pass filters and a mixer to produce a clean sine wave output as OwO hinted at, but should have stated more explicitly.The fact that unit starts at 33 MHz says it's a single ADF4351. A dual ADF4351 unit would start at a few kHz at most.I've not kept up with SaabFan's thread, but a low cost (<$100) 10 kHz - 2.2 GHz synthesizer would be a huge boon to a lot of hobbyists. It's really the next major step after the Arduino based LCR/transistor tester and the nanoVNA.So far as I know a good RF source is a "sine qua non" for calibrating a noise source on a DIY budget. It's necessary, but not sufficient. A decent power sensor is also required.I don't have time to do this myself, but if someone has the time and skills I'm interested in discussing providing support for an OSSW/OSHW RF synthesizer development.Have Fun!Reg

author: profdc9
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2020, 10:01:34 pm
content: The device does have two ADF4531.https://om0a.cq.sk/en/amaterske-radio/jtgp-1033-d6-spektralny-analyzator-s-vf-generatorom-32-4400-mhz/It generates a IF signal that goes to a log detector and is demodulated. It filters harmonics in the same way that the VNAs do because these generate harmonics of the IF. It seems to be very much like a heterodyne VNA must using log detection rather that detecting I and Q.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 12:32:13 am
content: Interesting. I'd not seen that. Have you found the schematic? While interesting, I don't think it is mixing 2.2-4.4 GHz from 2x ADF451 devices to get ~DC to 2.2 GHz as the mixer output. That's what is needed for a good synthesizer.I think it's using one ADF4351 for the source and one for the LO. While that works as demonstrated by the nanoVNA, VNWA and others, it also leads to spurious responses. I noticed in one YouTube video the narrator was calling them "harmonics" which they are not.I'd really like to see the RF output spectrum at 33 MHz on a lab grade SA. I've got a moRFeus and the output spectrum is awful at low frequencies because of all the harmonics.This is the MoRFeus spectrum at 100 MHz. It's lowest output frequency is 85 MHz.The MoRFeus is an ADF4351 and mixer. With external filters it's a useful device, but I'd really like to see a proper synthesizer with spurious outputs - 60dB or better.Reg

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 03:58:00 am
content: You really don't need a sine wave to accurately measure return loss at all. The harmonics of the RF and LO signals mix to create harmonics in the baseband signal, and this is all rejected by the DSP filter which has nulls exactly at the harmonics. Even with a shitty mixer like the SA612 the nano still achieves superior performance compared to anything you will get from a SA + TG + return loss bridge, below 200MHz at least. With the V2 I've checked absolute accuracy by measuring some 5ohm, 10ohm, 200ohm, 500ohm resistors. I may publish the results later but with a SA+TG you can not even hope to get +/-3dB accuracy of return loss because your measurements are going to be ripply (due to the cables) with no way of calibrating it out.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 04:26:01 am
content: The nano (both -H and V2) easily does <0.1dB absolute return loss accuracy near the 0dB operating point, and can show return loss down to -30dB (subject only to calibration kit limitations). Try doing that with the TG or noise generator approach. If your goal is to measure return loss, a SA, noise generator, etc are simply wrong tools for the job. The purpose of a SA is to look at signal spectrums, for example to see what kind of spurs your transmitter has. A TG on a spectrum analyzer is useless when you have access to a VNA of any kind.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 05:36:54 am
content: This is the 8560A with a 60dB.com bridge and the noise source this thread is about and a small partially collapsed whip antenna on the DUT port of the bridge,Test setup:I've swept filters and crystals many times w/ my 8560A. Hasn't seemed useless to me. A VNA might be better for some things, but if all you want is the log magnitude transfer function an SA w/ TG works quite well. Log magnitude transfer function is scalar network analysis. You are not using the phase angle information. So any tool that provides that information will do just fine. An SA & TG or noise source *are* scalar network analyzers.Aside from the nanoVNA I've also got an SDRplay RSP2, VNWA xaVNA, 8753B and 99,99% of an 8510C. I'm short one extension port jumper. And a couple of RTL-SDR dongles on the way. So I'll do a bunch of comparisons eventually. I'm sort of curious what TDR of the antenna w/ the 11801 & SD-24 looks like.Have Fun!Reg

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2020, 03:53:45 pm
content: Quote from: spongella on May 03, 2020, 12:37:35 pmYou need to attach the noise source to the IN port, the SDR to one of the two ports at that end of the RF bridge and a 50 ohm terminator at the other end. The photo in the previous post shows the setup.Quote from: OwO on May 04, 2020, 03:58:00 amIf you have that big a ripple problem it is because you've got *very* bad connections and are getting reflections at the connections. Those can certainly be calibrated out with an SA & TG. Not quite sure how you'd do it with an 8560A and noise source. With an SDR you'd save a sweep with a good load, sweep with the antenna and difference the two. A VNA is not immune to the problem, though a proper cal will automagically correct it for you.Have Fun!Reg

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2020, 01:30:35 am
content: OK here are screen shots using a V 3 RTL-SDR and Spektrum. The antenna is not extended the same as when I did the test with the 8560A. So the dip is at a slightly different frequency.Procedure:Connect RF bridge as shown in the 8560A test with a 50 ohm termination on the DUT portSet relative mode per the Spektrum UIRemove 50 ohm terminator and attach antennaThe ripple is reflections at the connection to the RTL-SDR and the RF bridge. That is proved by the period of the ripples. The length derived from the 2-way travel time in the cable from the RTL-SDR to the RF bridge is 2.8 m which is the measured length of the cable. The RTL-SDR is not very close to the 50 ohms of the cable which is a good quality cable. As demonstrated in the 8560A case, the RF bridge is pretty good.The ripples were 2-3 times larger before I tightened the SMA connectors with a torque wrench. I also put a 4 dB MiniCircuits SMA attenuator on the RTL-SDR to reduce the mismatch.It's important to note that the amplitude response of the RTL-SDR is no where close to flat. So normalization (aka relative mode) is critical to getting a usable result.Have Fun!RegHere are the same tests using the V2 RTL-SDRI don't know why the V 3 dongle is a poorer match, but I'd guess it's the bias tee.

author: galileo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 12:22:22 am
content: Bridge:http://g3ynh.info/zdocs/bridges/appendix/self_eval_refbrig.pdfSi5351 as "signal generator"Linrad + HF radio or RTL SDR as a receiver.~60dB repeatable RL measurements without issues.Keep in mind that these types of bridges are calibrated to a load and common mode noise is a huge issue.

author: fmkit
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 11:25:09 am
content: few posts bac seeing ebay D6 38-4400 SA/TG I laughed about included bridge, it's not usable at all !I have another similar NTW4400 board modified v=w/simple bridge using smallest 1:1 transformer and resistors, we have 3 unused TG RF-out so I used one for permanent onboard bridge while keeping original functionality. The bridge almost flat to 1950MHz and here is test of UHF antenna using both bridges, red line is my DIY bridge while green is ebay gimmik (note upper SMA ground connection)

author: mio83
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 02:58:04 pm
content: Regarding a 'hobbyist' way to produce signals, the HackRF is not too bad.See the following two pictures for a spectrum display of a 500Mhz and 1Ghz signals.500 Mhz :https://www.dropbox.com/s/czk10iiqul0xl9k/500mhz.png1000 Mhz:https://www.dropbox.com/s/wgm0q4ia131rjv4/1ghz.pngAs you can see harmonics are -35dbc. Furthermore in can do all sorts of modulations (being a SDR) and it works from 1Mhz to 6Ghz.I have done a few videos about the HackRF as a signal generator in my youtube channel (see, e.g.,) if you are interested.@rhb : I am interested in theMoRFeus. I asked in their forum and they are going to sell a new batch this summer. Could you please use your very cool equipment to do a proper review of it and experiments?

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 04:10:53 pm
content: I *think* I posted some spectra made with my 8560A, but perhaps not. The MoRFeus produces a *lot* of odd order harmonics. IIRC it's a single ADF4351 so to be useful you need an external filter and even then it has issues at the low end of the range with the closely spaced harmonics. I'll run some tests this evening.I've got a couple of graduate level monographs on analog filter design coming and will be building a bunch of filters and testing them. No particular schedule for that. I'm severely ADD and randomly wake up and do something completely different. Just can't play and repair guitars, design, build, repair and test electronics and do precision metal working easily in the same week. Something always gets on the back burner. for weeks or months. Usually cleaning house and shop, though I'm taking advantage of the mild weather here to clean my shop. Driven by the desire to get 4 5ft high stacks of test gear out of my dining room. But to do that I've got to build a new lab. Hence the priority on cleaning up the shop.Have Fun!RegHave Fun!Reg

author: mio83
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 08:10:29 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on June 25, 2020, 04:10:53 pmYes, sorry. I meant an overall overview, especially of its mixer functionality (which is the main goal of the moRFeus).But basically I wanted to motivate you do keep posting spectra screenshots and investigations, I enjoy themThanks!

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 08:27:17 pm
content: OK, understood. I've not fooled with the mixer yet. I'll look into using it as a tracking generator with the 8650A using the 1st LO output. That would be of considerable interest to people who don't have the TG option in their 856x. IRC it has a built in bias tee which makes me nervous without a good DC block to protect my 8560A from confused user.However, I just got a Hugen nanoVNA-H 4 in the mail so this evening's play time is spoken for ;-) It's *really* impressive for under $65 delivered. Very nice box and case. The larger screen is a big improvement.I came across this the other day by way of HackaDay:https://www.elenco.com/product/amfm-radio-kitcombo-ic-transistor/and ordered on. I think that having the schematic on the PCB is really cool. Not sure if/when I'll build it, but as a tool for teaching someone radio electronics it was just too good to pass up. I've long wanted to have a set of boards with 2N3904 and 2N3906 transistors in all the various amplifier topologies with the schematic underneath so one could look at the circuit while making measurements. I wouldn't go to that much trouble for a full AM/FM radio, but for $45 I'll surely take one just to have if I ever have a chance to teach someone radio electronics.Have Fun!RegBTW I'm eyeball deep in "Scope Wars"