DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ColdPower
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 11:34:46 am
content: Hi everyone,I've been reading the forum for years, but never actually got involved. Last week however, this just stunned me, so thought I'd ask what you think and if anyone else had the same issue, could be normal - what do I know!So, as the title says, I just had some caps delivered last week, and turns out, they're about 7.5-8 years old. I always though electrolytic caps purchased by big suppliers would be no more than a couple of years old, admittedly I've had 3-4 years old caps delivered by same supplier before, but those were ELNA Silmic II, so I didn't question it too much as they're likely not the most selling ones and stayed for a while. But seriously - 8? What's the usual shelf life of these caps, had a look at the datasheet, but didn't see anything...Should I be angry at Digikey or just to myself, for not knowing betterMerry Christmas!

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 11:40:17 am
content: Don't you have the means to test them?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 11:40:26 am
content: Assuming you have LCR to measure it and its up to spec, then what is the problem ?Shelf life never mentioned, as I guess its heavily depends on the environment where and how its stored.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 11:41:43 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on December 21, 2020, 11:40:26 amShelf life for electrolytics is pretty short and always specified in datasheets (from A-brands).

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 11:41:44 am
content: There are different types of electrolytic caps. Please tell us what type they are and the DK part number(s).

author: ColdPower
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 11:45:15 am
content: Sure I can measure them, but then I have 30 years old caps that still measure fine, I wouldn't however use them for repairs, after all, not to forget, these are electrolytic caps, I wouldn't have questioned it otherwise.And yes, I know how they reform and so on, but again, these are new, paid as for new and I somehow feel something isn't quite right having them that old?

author: ColdPower
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 11:49:45 am
content: Here's the actual cap from Digi:https://www.digikey.co.uk/products/en?keywords=P13146-NDDatasheet mentions shelf life, but only at rated temp?Thanks everyone.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 11:52:07 am
content: I guess its kinda moot, as the datasheet it self doesn't mention it clearly, also DK never committed how long they must keep it or how they keep it and never agreed this term to buyer, I guess this will end up debating the period which is acceptable, even the cap is still within spec.<=6 months ? 12 months or less ? 1-2 years ? 3-5 years ? and so on ...

author: TopLoser
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 12:15:30 pm
content: They were discontinued in June 2014 so I guess you won't find ANY of that part that aren't less than 5 or 6 years old.There are alternatives listed, I guess you need to buy those if you want newer parts...

author: ColdPower
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 12:27:26 pm
content: You're absolutely right, I just didn't expect it possible for big supplier to offer so old stock, so didn't really investigate each part based on possible obsolescence data... silly me

author: Jay_Diddy_B
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 12:34:38 pm
content: Hi,On this datasheet:Link:https://industrial.panasonic.com/cdbs/www-data/pdf/RDF0000/ABA0000C1024.pdfWhich covers the EEU-EB1J4R7SI believe that the 'S' means short can.Panasonic says:If you are concerned about the leakage current in your application, I would send them back.I have used electrolytic capacitors, from my own inventory, that are much older than that without issue. I have electrolytic capacitors in test equipment that has sat idle for many years and then powered it up, no issues.Jay_Diddy_B

author: ColdPower
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 12:44:54 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 21, 2020, 12:39:50 pmLove this! Yes, I do have the means to measure and regardless of what I believe, it's more important on occasion what my client believe and want, so...

author: ColdPower
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 12:49:03 pm
content: Thanks Jay_Diddy_B, have been looking for that piece of info. I have as well used old caps with no issues, but it wouldn't feel right to use such for clients. It just wouldn't.

author: Jay_Diddy_B
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 12:51:33 pm
content: Hi,when I search ELNA Silmic, I find a lot of links to audiophile applications.If this is an audiophile application,It would be foolish to measure anything ...Eight years is barely enough. They should be aged for longer, along with the power cords ...[Humour\]Jay_Diddy_B

author: ColdPower
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 01:01:37 pm
content: BTW can anyone share knowledge on reading Panasonic date codes - can't seem to find up to date info and they sure didn't follow the YYWW coding?Thank you.

author: Jay_Diddy_B
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 01:13:35 pm
content: Hi,Try these methods:Jay_Diddy_B

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 01:21:50 pm
content: Can you please post pictures and tell how you calculated their age?

author: ColdPower
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 01:51:08 pm
content: Quote from: exe on December 21, 2020, 01:21:50 pmBy Digi-key's own repack label, dated 2013. I'll try decipher the date codes as well.

author: ColdPower
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 02:08:59 pm
content: Okay, so if above date code table is correct, they may even be older! Codes as follows:1NFR - the ones in question that just arrived last week.22FJ - same caps I ordered in July this year - seemingly newer than the later delivery

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 03:39:55 pm
content: Quote from: ColdPower on December 21, 2020, 01:51:08 pmTo recover costs, you can sell those as vintage parts

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 04:07:23 pm
content: As a hobbyist purchaser, I also have gotten older capacitors from reputable distributors and they are still working fine. At work, however, I have seen contracts establishing limits to the earliest mfg date of the supply chain, but your account needs to be significant to the manufacturer/distributor.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 04:26:50 pm
content: Given the parts were listed as an "Obsolete item", it may be worth it to evaluate the parts. Substitution of parts in either repair or a new build can sometimes be an issue depending on how customers track their BOMs, if approvals are involved, etc.As it happens, a couple years ago I had this situation:A customer had a malfunction in their system. Visual inspection showed slight expansion of the pressure relief on the Panasonic SMT 47 uF electrolytic on the board. The board was 10 years old. The customer got very concerned and jumped to the conclusion that it was the cause of their issues. The expansion was noted on local examples of similar vintage and date code, and institutional memory verified that it was there from the time of production.As they were at a remote location, visiting the site was not possible. However, they happened to have an LCR meter available. I made measurements of several boards, both old and new, along with measurements of NOS capacitors of the same vintage, new capacitors of the same part number, and similar parts from other suppliers. I then requested measurements from their board, leaving the part in-circuit.The measurements from the customer were the same as what I got with all variations of parts. There was no performance change between their board, my examples, my NOS parts, and new parts from both Panasonic and others.Examples of all the parts were sent to Panasonic in Japan, along with the example circuit board that showed an expanding top. The NOS parts were evaluated, along with the questionable part. All measured very similarly. Their evaluation was that the parts were overheated during the soldering process at the manufacturer. As it happens, we had moved to a different board assembler soon after that initial run due to other quality issues.I believe the problem at the customer site was tracked down to EMC issues.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 08:48:24 pm
content: Thank you for identifying the part. It seems you bought an obsolete part at a very good price compared to current production.Your first post implies nothing about buying obsolete parts. The implication was quite the opposite.QuoteWhat's you complaint? Did you not read the "obsolete" part of the description? What's your motive in trashing DigiKey here rather than dealing with it directly? Seems more likely you want a freebie. Maybe DK will do that for you. Will you then apologize for your mistake in ordering them? I doubt it.

author: ColdPower
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 09:24:45 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on December 21, 2020, 08:48:24 pmWhy don't you first read carefully and then figure out who ate your breakfast, as it sure ain't me! If you only woke up this morning to look for arguments, look elsewhere. Will you apologise once you actually read the topic?

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 09:41:58 pm
content: 1) I can read.2) I read your post.3) I saw no reason for trashing one of the two distributors hobbyists have to deal with.4) Why didn't you contact DigiKey with your dissatisfaction?Troll paid by Berkshire Hathaway?

author: ColdPower
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2020, 09:58:25 pm
content: Right, apparently you need explanation, and thanks for offending me!1. No, I didn't buy them at good price, compared to current production, quite the opposite.2. In my dictionary obsolete doesn't mean past expiration date3. I've been trying to contact DK live chat all morning with no luck, will post once I hear from them4. How is asking if a company did the right thing trashing? You have a really sick understanding of the world, which I'm sorry, but doesn't make right your behaviour to others.5. No, shockingly I'm not looking for freebies through eevblog's forum.Apologies for the off-topic to everyone that's here to actually help, especially to Jay_Diddy_B for providing the key info on this topic, which the above person failed to read as it seems.

author: thermistor-guy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2020, 05:02:31 am
content: Quote from: ColdPower on December 21, 2020, 01:51:08 pmI am surprised you received stock this old. This is a question for Digi-Key: can they explain why your parts date back to 2013.In manufacturing and distribution, First-In-First-Out handling of inventory is a big deal, and normally it's strictly enforced. No system is perfect -old stock, can, incorrectly, get stranded in the warehouse, while newer stock (of the same item) continues to ship as normal. Stocktakes usually pickthis up, but not always.An example of what can happen (not saying it did happen here). Supplier orders a 3000-piece reel, but gets a 5000-piece reel. Supplier sells 3000 qtyin multiple cut-tape orders. Inventory system then shows zero stock. Part is marked obsolete, so no more orders. Partial reel of qty=2000 sits thereuntil next stocktake. Stocktake detects the partial reel, puts it aside in a discrepancy/quarantine bin. Eventually staff investigate the discrepancy.Reel looks ok, so back it goes into a normal bin, with inventory count adjusted to 2000. Parts are now a few years old (but not eight) andavailable for sale.Another example (again, not saying it did happen). Reel goes missing: misplaced in another bin, barcode on reel doesn't read properly so reel staysmisplaced for a while. Inventory manually adjusted to zero. Part obsolete, no more orders. Reel eventually recognized as misplaced. Staff return it tothe correct bin and readjust inventory count. Parts are now a few years old and available for sale.Apart from shelf life of electrolytics, there is the question of solderability - will the leads of the old parts solder properly, without a lot of manual touch-up?I once worked for an OEM that would reject old parts for production, simply over that issue. It's worth asking Digi_Key about the 2013 date, if onlybecause of solderability concerns.

author: ColdPower
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2020, 10:17:27 am
content: Thank you for your input, that really makes a lot of sense and your point of solderability is another possible concern especially if storage conditions were not optimal, but I believe DK does what's needed for that. This case really is probably an extreme example, as caps apparently date as back as 2011 and point here isn't trashing DK (I love DK, it has always been my preferred supplier and I often have paid over the odds just to buy from them!), but checking if anyone else has noticed the same - is it an isolated case or is there a problem with stock control. If someone had a delivery recently, could you check and share? I just got few other caps delivered (NOT obsolete, as this seem to justify it for some people!) which were just over two and a half years old, which isn't a shockingly lot, but as it appears, still well past the Panasonic's 12 month expiration date.So if you ordered caps recently, please have a look and share what you have.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2020, 01:25:58 pm
content: I'd expect discounts on such products. I like buying parts that marked on tme "until stock lasts" as usually it means a good deal. Although sometimes it goes not very smooth. Like, I wanted to buy some cheap obsolete polymer caps, they had only 9 left in stock, but minimum purchase quantity was 10. It took me a lot of time back and forth with support to resolve it. So, I saved maybe 10 or 20 euros on caps, but spent hours.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2020, 01:33:02 pm
content: Quote from: exe on December 22, 2020, 01:25:58 pmMost distros charge only for quantity dispatched, so you can by 10. Remaining 1 will never arrive and you won't be charged for it. TME charges full amount right away, maybe when they realize they cannot order them, they will simply make a refund.

author: ColdPower
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2020, 02:11:30 pm
content: Quote from: exe on December 22, 2020, 01:25:58 pmI always hope my neighbours can't hear my blessings every time I get to place an order with TMEStill can't get the hang of their parking, orders, basket without add to basket button - it's a hit and miss every time. Admittedly they have great prices sometimes not only on last stock parts, but on active ones as well. My only issue with them (when I manage to actually order) on multiple occasions has been packaging (one of the great things with DK - have NEVER had damaged parts due to bad packaging). Last time they even sent full tray of power transistors with no ESD protection whatsoever

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2020, 02:28:17 pm
content: TME is fundamentally really good with good pricing and fast deliveries, but their website screams "consultants sold us ERP and SAP and a few other three-letter acronyms" all over. I mostly find that ridiculously funny but there is real chance it causing PTSD to some customers who have had to work with/around said systems and possibly burnt off doing that.It's surprisingly responsive, through, for being what it is, and you can get the job done (i.e., I have always managed to place an order and print an invoice), but there is always that lingering fear that all hell may break loose any time.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2020, 05:47:39 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 22, 2020, 01:33:02 pmI couldn't put caps in the basket because it was not possible to order more than in stock, and min quantity was 10. They created a custom offer for me, which is after a few email back and forth I managed to accept and pay.

author: mag_therm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2020, 06:33:59 pm
content: I intentionally buy some components from surplus.Solderability with age is certainly an issue.I am doing an old tube restoration today.Somtimes the leads go brown when hot and the solder balls up.Rubbing the capacitor leads with a dry paper towel until shiny before soldering helps.Then paint with flux before soldering in.Oh.. and mistakes happenThe cathode resistors metering grid bias need to be 10 Ohm , I ordered 2 Watt 1%The ones from surplus were coded: brown black black white brown.band 4 is a bright white, I compared with other gray and silver bandsI think that must be an obsolete code. They measure 0.1 Ohm instead of 10 OhmActually today, 0.1 Ohm should be coded: brown black black gray brown.And 10 Ohm should be brown black black gold brown.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2020, 10:46:03 pm
content: Quote from: ColdPower on December 21, 2020, 09:58:25 pm"Obsolete" means a part isn't being made any more. I don't see how one can have an expectation of fresh stock of an item that's no longer being made.Remember also that with electronic components, at (end product) manufacturing scale, a distributor SKU needs toabsolutely, positivelyidentify a specific variant of a specific part, not its successor or some other substitute. Sure, for most applications, the newer EEU-EB1J4R7S(DK SKU P13473-ND) will be a drop-in substitute for the EEU-EB1J4R7 (DK SKU P13146-ND) you ordered. But that's up to the (product) manufacturer to decide and validate, not the component manufacturer or the distributor. So if you order a P13146-ND, and they have one to sell you, that's what you are you going to get, not the newer version.What I'm curious about is how you managed to order it, since they've presumably been obsolete for quite some time. Or are you actually saying you placed an order for P13473-ND but received P13146-ND instead?

author: ColdPower
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 12:47:39 am
content: We got caught into that obsolete status, but: obsolete means exactly that the part isn't anymore manufactured or is planned to be stopped from manufacturing, for which the manufacturer would give as seen clear obsolescence notice of about an year. In this time the part may be marked as obsolete or last order, but that doesn't necessarily mean one should assume the stock to receive would be beyond recommended usage time frame and long past expiration date. As also pointed earlier, some series can have up to 42 months till expiration, which can be well past obsolescence date and again, doesn't mean parts are not recommended as viable for usage. Also as seen, expired caps are not recommended for use by the manufacturer, so whatever that part status, one would expect it to be usable according to manufacturer advise? This just as it happens is rather important with electrolytic caps, otherwise, not that important really, unless solderabitly is a concern as also pointed, but if you ever had to deal with 40+ years old soviet resistors, it wouldn't bother you that muchHope that finally clears the obsolete part status.And in answer of the question, I did order exactly P13146-ND and have earlier this year as well, part was available, but again, I didn't pay much attention to the obsolete status, as cleared above, it can be obsolete and well within recommended usage frame. I believe in this case that should have been automatically caught by the stock keeping, same as in a supermarket if the milk goes past exp. date, it's not sold anymore, although may still be drinkable...Sorry, that got long, but lastly, as mentioned before, I have received active caps which I just now realise are in fact past expiration date as well, so seems like clearly this is just not at all tracked in the DK's stock keeping. I guess it is what it is and being small clients buying in hundreds not tens of thousands, we'd just have to accept itI was just really surprised it actually happens and not an isolated case and even more, that a lot of people seem to actually find it normal and acceptable.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 12:54:57 am
content: You have seen obsolete status, did not bother to check, bought it anyway. Then complain that you got component almost as fresh as it was technically possible.QuoteIt's not like past this date capacitor is bad. It's about recommended reconditioning. If capacitor will be used close to max voltage in a circuit without current limit, it would be the best to recondition them beforehand.

author: ColdPower
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 12:59:36 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 23, 2020, 12:54:57 amWhat you quote was for ACTIVE part, read again the post above as well re expectations!

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 10:02:27 pm
content: The way I see it, there is not much to be gained from discussing or arguing this. You got parts you're unhappy with. There are only 3 possible - and simple - solutions:1) Accept that you won't be able to find new stock of this part and use them anyway.2) Return them (or don't) and find new parts with equivalent specs.3) Call Digikey. They have excellent customer service. You'll get a real person on the phone to whom you can explain the situation. If you are unhappy with the caps or feel you were misled I have zero doubt Digikey will refund them for you. Digikey made ONE mistake, ever, in my 10 years of dealing with them: they sent a part in the wrong SMT package. I called them and they swiftly apologized and immediately overnighted new parts for priority AM delivery at no cost to me. They will take care of you.Caps sitting in cold storage with no electrical or thermal stress whatsoever are going to last decades. Even electrolytics, particularly high-quality electrolytics. A big part of the reason they "expire" in 48 months is so that manufacturers don't need to deal with angry OEMs for whom a 0.05% failure rate over 10 million parts is a big deal.

author: ColdPower
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 09:52:04 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on December 23, 2020, 10:02:27 pmNot really looking for anything to gain or argue, as mentioned, was wondering how common this is and is it normal to happen. Although in my case this seem to be rather common to happen and replies show it's far from ideal for electrolytics, apparently most would see it as normal and would be okay with, so as stated earlier, we'd just have to accept it as normal, even if against manufacturer advice....Also it wasn't the point of whether DK CS would refund or not, but again, rather is it acceptable practice and what expectations for orders should be, but I believe we've answered that one too.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 12:05:59 pm
content: Quote from: ColdPower on December 24, 2020, 09:52:04 amWhy you would do that?If you fix your one-off a personal gadget and happy with outcome and any sort of measurements, why bother... but if you doing a product run that should be covered by warranty etc - why take any extra risks?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 01:25:57 pm
content: QuoteDoes there have to be a reason other than to expand one's knowledge, just to know?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 03:14:18 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on December 23, 2020, 10:02:27 pmThis is true for a great deal of discussions around here, but this is not one of them. If anything, at least it raises awareness for when one makes their next purchase and it is at least electronics related.