Android platform, what a mess - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:27:39 am
content: You're not gonna like this... that is, you're not, if you're the kind of person who feels it's a "competition" which needs to be "won", or it's like a football team to bicker over and fall down rabbit holes of debate over, wasting years of your life. If you have the ability to detach yourself from emotions for a moment, and ponder objectively, you'll be fine. Okay.No it's not that at all, it's just that Android always was, always has been and still is, an absolutely terrible technical and business compromise from Google, the reigning King supreme of ADHD-esque, ethically devoid, incompetent and bungling buffoons.Who thought making a platform based on Java, merely because Java is easily understood by potential developers, as a prudent decision?Who thought that "But it's open source guys!" was a good reason to add weight to the already weak reasoning for choosing Java/JVM based OS? It's NOT open source, only the kernel is. (the technically ignorant still magnify the "open source" tagline, whilst conveniently remaining silent about the rest.)?Who thought that not enforcing strict guidelines such as who could build and vend the OS on their devices (which mean that failures of the platform are significantly lessened, ergo Google-centric blame would be lessened also, I think)?Who thought that any of this was wise, or that allowing others to borrow the code, re-skin it, and spin it off in a trillion different OS', hoping that the gullible would believe that "SmoothSilkOS" or other silly ROM names, compiled in the bedroom of some Indian teenager, were a good idea? Lol++++Who thought at all? Not many it seems .There's an answer... but it's not Android, for if it HAD been a decent platform, then why would Google be quietly considering its replacement with "project fuchsia"? They wouldn't. Do you see Apple replacing iOS? Hah!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:42:42 am
content: Red Alert Issued, as Android Phone Rant Storm ETI Hits EEVBLOG Forums, UK.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-60421388

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:44:15 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 18, 2022, 05:42:42 amStone cold blue obvious response message broadcast, for this was not a rant, this an empassioned observation on a truly laughable platform.It's a mess, and those who deny it, deny logic itself. Calling something a "rant" is called inciting a riot, and since I am not intent to rant, and didn't intend to, sorry, you'll be disappointed, and will have to revert to YouTube or TV for your cheap thrills

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:45:19 am
content: This is for when the OP's initial post, gets edited into a:..Quote from: eti on February 18, 2022, 05:27:39 am

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:47:17 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 18, 2022, 05:45:19 amI think it isn't. Have a nice weekendPS: I see no humourous correlation between a genuine BBC news article, and your trying to force it into a "joke" about my post. That's just contrived. I don't mean that in a snotty way, it just doesn't work - sorry!

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:48:19 am
content: Okay.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 06:20:37 am
content: Quote from: eti on February 18, 2022, 05:44:15 amCan you provide any sources of information (such as links), backing up your claims, against Android ?Which may also, indirectly back up your claims, it is not a rant.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 07:53:00 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 18, 2022, 06:20:37 amYou wish for me to "backup my claims"?Thatold chestnut. You do not have to agree, a gun isn't held to your throat. It's fine to not agree, or, maybe, even bow out. I won't be offended. Did you just read a "how to have a debate and win!" book? That sounds like a classic line, and one which is easily the most simplistic trap which SO MANY fall into.I do not need to "backup" my "claims" - it's a viewpoint. Accept it, or laugh at me and walk away - I don't mind if you do either, I am not demanding agreement (a sign of insecurity) - you're free, as you know, to think as you wish to.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 08:08:55 am
content: We could always have something worse.The fundamental issue that I care about, is that Android doesn't even use the standard linux kernel. Every phone is patched with tens of thousands, up to a million rows of hidden code that never ends up in the upstream Linux kernel, where it rightly belongs. Google has improved on this in later years, but it still isn't a good situation. The effects of this is phones that won't be patched (vulnerabilities in the kernel), vulnerabilities in the manufacturer's code (because it hasn't been tested and verified in the normal kernel development process) and landfills with old phones that could be perfectly usable if you could install a newer OS version on them, but you can't due to missing kernel drivers.Personally, the whole situation sucks so hard that I was using Jolla Sailfish phones for many years before finally giving up and switching to Android. Gave Purism Librem a try also. Good try, and I personally love the software platform (even though not ready for the masses), but it's hard to develop hardware from scratch and port a PC platform of software into a phone only in a few years. I think I see one possible future here (the software platform), though, due to the inertia of free and open source software.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 08:18:05 am
content: Quote from: jukk on February 18, 2022, 08:08:55 amThere's a much nicer, simpler, stress-free solution, called iOS.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 08:26:22 am
content: Quote from: eti on February 18, 2022, 08:18:05 amThat's again worse from my point of view. Where's the source code? Walled garden, totally lock-in. Not for me, thanks. I hopped on the Free and Open Source Software bandwagon twenty years ago and I'm convinced that's the future for humanity, in one form or another. iOS is a toy for the rich and doesn't contribute much to the overall technological improvements for humanity (but they of course make money for their shareholders).

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 08:29:20 am
content: Quote from: jukk on February 18, 2022, 08:26:22 amYou're going round in the same erroneous logical loop that many do; where's the source code for Android? Nowhere, except in their HQ. Even if you HAD the source code, what you gonna do, sit down for a couple of weekends and inspect ALL the code, and re-compile the OS? Please..."Rich"? "Shareholders"? Where are you finding this... lol. You think owning an iPhone is the preserve of the rich?You can be as "convinced" as you wish to be, just as Richard Stallman is convinced that "Free Software" is "holy", whereas all else is evil - meanwhile, normal people and non-obsessives are out there getting on with their lives using phones that actually DO what they are intended to, and living happy lives knowing that things work (most of the time), and don't require an entry level comp. sci degree to operate (normal users VASTLY outnumber the MINISCULE, TINY, TEENY fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent that is the very loud, very passionate hardcore online obsessives - Apple's HUGE success speaks for itself!)

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 08:29:38 am
content: QuoteDoes this viewpoint not conflict with the viewpoint presented in one of your other threads claiming that an expensive TV is a BS expense?The way Android works and exists allows the creation of phones that cost 50 USD all the way up to phones that cost 1500 USD with specs comparable to lesser desktops and cameras that allow you to count the hairs on someones head.You mention Apple as the alternative. The cheapest iphone I can see (new, non second hand) is ~480 EUR (~550 USD). That's a lot of cash for the bottom of the range.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 08:35:21 am
content: Quote from: daqq on February 18, 2022, 08:29:38 amWe are talking about phones here, not cheap crappy TVs. If you'd owned an Apple product, you'd know you wouldn't even need to concern yourself, but since you are determined to disagree "just because", okay, choose as you wish. Fine - I don't mindI do agree that new iPhone prices are slightly high - but guess what? PEOPLE STILL BUY THEM - Apple are VERY trustworthy, and doing the years of work and research in that industry that I've done, you'd know it too (and no, I am not going to "prove it to you" in case you ask, lol)Have you considered that maybe what you can see is not all there is? Look more - unless that quick search is all you needed to "prove me wrong".

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 08:46:55 am
content: I thought this thread was started with nice intentions, to discuss some technical viewpoint or the other. Now I see I'm wrong.Quote from: eti on February 18, 2022, 08:29:20 amThat's your conclusion. Now you are making up conclusions.I don't care whatsoever. Thanks and goodbye.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 08:59:50 am
content: Quote from: jukk on February 18, 2022, 08:46:55 amYou LITERALLY just said this very thing yourself. Comical. Wow.People who say “I don’t care” and then “good bye”… usually care. This is primitive psychology.Okay good bye, have a nice weekend. Don’t be offended I’m not uptight about it, but in your shoes I’d maybe check back and see what I’d written, so as to not look a bit daft.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 10:36:26 am
content: Quote from: eti on February 18, 2022, 07:53:00 amOk, so it's an opinion point, raised by you.I'll give mine. I think Android is reasonably fine. Not perfect by any means. (EDIT: Was a long text answer, but decided to replace with quick summary).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 11:57:05 am
content: Quote from: eti on February 18, 2022, 05:27:39 amWhile I actually agree with most of your rant, what exactly is your goal in posting it? Rants don’t tend to form a good foundation for reasonable debate, since it puts a lot of people on the defensive right from the start.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:43:46 pm
content: The OP sounds angry.To be fair, apart from the kernel which is Linux, Android as an OS is a mess, and I wouldn't want to touch it with a stick as an OS for my own devices.But for mobile phones, that works reasonably well.If you want to have a look at something else:https://ubuntu-touch.io/

author: dave j
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 06:05:19 pm
content: Quote from: eti on February 18, 2022, 08:29:20 amHere you go.There are lots of justifiable reasons to have a go at Google and Android but if you are going to you should at least get your central claims right.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 06:08:17 pm
content: I remember an older discussion about Android not being open source, and I admit I never really got why some consider it is not. There's possibly a good reason, but I just failed to understand it.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 06:43:20 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 18, 2022, 06:08:17 pmIthat misses out the very parts that make it. Anywhere near usable, IE, Google play services etc.Lol

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 06:49:16 pm
content: You can perfectly use Android without any Google service.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 06:50:59 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 18, 2022, 06:49:16 pmAnd you can use a car without wheels to keep chickens in.This ridiculous obsession with source code is meaningless.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 06:56:45 pm
content: Quote from: eti on February 18, 2022, 06:43:20 pmThere are plenty of devices that are build on "ungooglified" Android, e.g. pretty much most of the cheap Chinese phones.That you are picking on the lack of Google services - but that without device drivers which are mostly completely proprietary binary blobs on these embedded platforms you won't even get an OS (any OS, not just Android) to boot or do anything useful doesn't bother you?At the same time you are talking about Apple products as an alternative - yet Apple devices are literally completely locked down, proprietary to literally the last screw and nobody except Apple can make one!Your rant about Java - just yawn. Android isn't running a JVM but Google's own virtual machine since ages ago and development for it doesn't require you to write applications in Java either. Yes, you can even run native code on Android if you really wanted but given that Android isn't running only on ARM CPUs, it would be most likely more trouble than it is worth unless you were planning to only ever deploy on a single device.Pretty pointless troll/rant, IMO.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 07:41:12 pm
content: Quote from: eti on February 18, 2022, 06:50:59 pmWhat are you even on about?Yes you can use Android without Google services. And no it doesn't make it useless. There are tons of alternative App stores actually - if you're just talking about that. (And of course you can always install apps manually without a store.) You still get all the functionalities that an OS is supposed to give you.And obsession with source code? Many Android-based systems are built successfully from source code. That's even the only way of customizing it. There are tons of tutorials out there for you to do that. And you're free to do so and use it as you see fit. That's what open source is all about.While I don't particularly like the architecture of Android as I said, this has nothing to do with it not being open.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 08:31:12 pm
content: Quote from: eti on February 18, 2022, 08:18:05 amWhat? You're actually serious?This thread reminds me of how I a long time ago stumbled onto thunderbolts.info.It starts with a logical, rational complaint: that electrical phenomena, especially static charge buildup and discharge effects between asteroids and other solid objects in space, have been overlooked when considering space phenomena.Then it does a mind-bender, and continues as if it was a logical conclusion, that "therefore the Sun and all stars are a purely electrical phenomena, generated where galactic currents happen to intersect".I understand your complaints, and agree with many, eti. However, your conclusions seem absolutely irrational and illogical.Also, I am a bit hurt that you so easily ridicule what I and others do for fun: pore through kernel and low level library sources, regularly read development mailing lists, and fix bugs in widely used code just because we can and like it as a hobby. (The hard part there is not the code itself –– not even in the case of the Linux kernel ––, but the developer intent. It is when the project refuses to describe how it is supposed to work, say viaToDo: explain how this works, that external review is useless because who knows how it is supposed to work... also explains how a trivial root privilege escalation bug can remain undiscovered in a piece of software used in most Linux distributions for twelve years.)This is where the recent Political Correctness and social dictats like Codes of Conduct come in. Whenever a project installs one, the end result is that the core group of developers stop interacting with people they don't already know, just to make sure they do not accidentally Cancel themselves. This also means that when somebody reports an existingbugortwo, even in the Linux kernel, it is justsaferto not engage. And this means that drive-by bug-fixing is not really possible anymore; one has to build up a presence first, to even have the members of the developer community read ones emails/posts.You now must be social before you can be effectively technical, even online.Your suggestion that "since Google is Evil, your best option is Apple, because open source is a ridiculous obsession" is simply utterly incoherent. You could just as well demand the legalisation of slavery, because you know people who are into BDSM.The point is not to find an existing Utopia you can buy, but to work with what we have right now, and try to make it consistently better one step at a time.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 08:42:40 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 18, 2022, 08:31:12 pmMultiplication of words doesn't increase wisdom of said words.I got:~ You're "hurt"~ Some weird, disgusting, filthy comparison regarding vile sexual actsPS: People have eyes, and can read. Those of them with those faculties, together with some discerment and sense, will know I didn't mention ANYTHING about Google being "evil", and therefore Apple being better by default, because of this. You're imagining that, and that could be seen as "voices in my head". Even a fool appears wise when he remains silent, Mr Tux.I bow out. Knock yourself out

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 09:05:08 pm
content: Quote from: daqq on February 18, 2022, 08:29:38 amI do not know how prices differ on either side of the pond, but here in the US the iPhone SE's base (64 GB flash) is $399, as listed on Apple's web site.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 01:12:44 am
content: Edit: Note I replied here before I realised the thread had been locked, as an administrator SMF allows this and while it does provide a small warning I missed it. My apologies.Quote from: eti on February 18, 2022, 08:35:21 amOk, let me prove the opposite....https://github.com/illusionofchaos/ios-analyticsd-pre14.7-exploitQuoteAt the end of the day BOTH iOS and Android have their flaws, one is completely closed and controlled by a monopoly... the other is semi-open and controlled by a monopoly.Is the decision to use Java for Android a good one?, IMO no, I think it's a laughable waste of resources and goes against the goal of saving battery power and CPU cycles.Is Apple overreaching in dictating how their devices are used? Yes, a big fat yes. Taking developers and software off their platform a at a whim is disgusting behaviour. Back when the iPod touch and iPhone was released Adobe Shockwave Flash was still in very common use and Adobe had invested millions in developing products like Adobe Flex which allowed one to write applications using Flash (yeah, sound's horrid today, but remember this was before HTML5 and you had to write a website and test it across 5-6 browsers for compatibility and hack around the Internet Explorer issues).The small family owned company I worked for a the time invested a good deal of money in my training and writing products to use Adobe Flex, only to find out later that Apple were blocking Shockwave from Apple devices. Adobe did what they could and wrote a compiler that would literally compile an apple compliant application from the Flex application that did not make use of Shockwave Flash at all (Adobe AIR). A short while later Apple blocked all submissions of applications that were compiled with this compiler making the claim that it was still Flash, which was a lie.IMO Apple are Evil, as are Google, but Android being somewhat open gives us some options, iOS on the other handEdit: Also of note, high end expensive equipment that is not a TV also runs Android. The Sony A7 series of professional cameras use Android.