Pick and place machine kit, with vision - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2015, 11:11:45 pm
content: Ever since I couldn't find one when I needed one, I have discussed about the feasibility of an affordable pick and place machine on this forum every now and then; especially one that would be aimed for prototype building. Sometimes the discussions have turned to polite arguing (hi Mike!), and at the end of the day, the conclusion has been that we don’t know if there is room between fully manual methods and real production P&P machines, unless someone tries to find out.I put my money where my mouth is, and built it. Building a finished machine is far too big effort to be worthwhile for one hacker only, so I took the extra effort and made it available for all:http://www.liteplacer.com.On my site you'll find lots of info, software (with source), shop for a kit, support forum and more.Please let me know your thoughts!-Juha

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2015, 11:29:01 pm
content: I must say that i am blown away by the amount of information and documentation about your project.And while i am not in market for a PnP machine, i will certainly visit your site and reading some of the stuff when i need to kill some idle time.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2015, 11:41:59 pm
content: Very nicely done, but of rather limited usefulness, and questionable cost-effectiveness.It's no faster than manual placement, even before you count setup time, and without proper feeders, of rather limited use.Quotethat is just ridiculous. Once a week, maybe, in some cases.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2015, 11:56:34 pm
content: I think you could save a lot of seeking time there, every time it picks apart it appears to seek diagonally to a home position, pauses half a second, and seeks horizontally to the part, this seems unnecessary, you should just seek diagonally to the next part.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2015, 12:37:04 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on February 03, 2015, 11:56:34 pmThat is the camera measuring the exact location of the part, then taking needle there. Measuring each part means that the user doesn't need to be precise when placing the tape strips. That would be time consuming; this way approximate tape location is fine, the machine can see the exact location.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2015, 03:14:18 am
content: Very nice, but I have to agree with Mike.This looks no faster than hand placing, and therefore of limited usefulness with those all important feeders.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2015, 04:11:19 am
content: Quote from: JuKu on February 04, 2015, 12:37:04 amI see, a reasonable solution.But perhaps you could have a tape setup routine which looks at the first part on the tape, and the last part (or just X parts along depending on your necessary accuracy), and from that you should be able to extrapolate positions for parts on a that straight tape of arbitrary length, once you have the positions, no need to look at each part before pickup.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2015, 04:33:00 pm
content: Something like this could be very useful for people with vision or ambulatory issues that physically can't do SMD work. Partial Blindness, Non-Stereo Vision, Arthritis, Handicaps or even just age.Hell, after a bit of caffeine I can't even do precision placement reliably by hand.Don't listen to the nay-sayers, keep up the great work! I might even look into building one.Sent from my Smartphone

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2015, 06:02:30 pm
content: I do a TON of manual assembly and I see this as useful. Here is why...Manual assembly takes a lot of time to setup just as a machine does. If I am doing 2-3 PCB's, I will simply spread out the components on the bench and get going. This means that for every component, you have to find the tape and the then find all of the instances on the PCB. If the PCB has 20 components, not a problem. If the PCB is like the ones I have, there are 200+ per side and many are so close together that silkscreening is not helpful. When I know that I need to make a small batch of the PCB's - say 25 pcs or so - I organize it much better. I print color coded lists, labels, and PCB references and organize the components on special color coded trays in the order they get placed. This takes a lot of the thinking part out of the chore and leaves the physical placing. No delays trying to remember where the pads are because it is all color coded and sequenced. I also designed and CNC'd special PCB holders and some other fixtures to help out.My hands are very steady and so I am able to place fine pitch components with no problem. The delays are my limits of focus as with most people. There is only so long that I can place components at "full speed". I can have bursts of speed, but it is not sustainable and the average speed over a day of placing is very slow. I designed and built a "manual" PnP but it was the same speed at best compared to my freehand methods.What I like about the Liteplacer is that it will place PCB's at the same rate without any thought. Even if that rate is slow, it does not require me to think or do after it is setup. I can be printing the next PCB's or tending the batch oven or testing the PCB's while it places components. For me, a 3000CPH machine would be pointless since I cannot print, reflow, test the PCB's that fast anyway.The feeders will be important for sure if you want to make more than a couple of PCB's. Fortunately, I transitioned into EE from ME. I spend the better part of the last 10 years designing and CNC machining in my own shop. I could easily modify the table and create some simple feeders. My PCB's are usually two-sides so the table needs to be changed. I am inclined to get a kit and modify it with upgraded mechanics to suit my needs . For the price, if it does not work, I would not shed a tear.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2015, 06:35:17 pm
content: Do you have a picture of the entire machine? What are the overall dimensions? What is required in addition to the kit (e.g. vacuum pump?, power supply?)?Looks very impressive.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2015, 07:16:13 pm
content: Great job! For the hobbieist that makes small series of pcb's it looks like a really good machine.You must have a lot of spare time to do this project.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2015, 08:52:43 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on February 04, 2015, 06:35:17 pmSeehttp://www.liteplacer.com/plan-your-work-area/.QuoteAbout 91 x 54 cm board area is required. Depending on the cable management solution, roughly 100 x 65cm overall.QuoteVacuum pump is included. The items not included in the kit are those that a typical kit builder is likely to have already or where adding them would not add value to the product:•Power supply•Cables and wires•Connectors, termination blocks, ferrules and other cabling accessories•Drag chains or other cable management•Enclosure for electronics•Reset switch and mount•Work table, screws to secure to machine to it•ComputerQuoteThanks!

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2015, 08:56:04 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 04, 2015, 07:16:13 pmIt is winter time, golf courses are closed.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 03:00:32 am
content: I think I will commit to one of the first kits.What could go wrong? I have an electronics lab and a CNC machine shop. I have done motion control design and have a pile of Maxon servos, 8 axis Trio motion controllers and drives. I have never coded in C# but I can learn as I am well versed in C. We shall see if it can place .5mm pitch QFN's.First thing is to get 2 sided PCB capability for me. Second will be figuring out feeders that I can swap quickly to change jobs out.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 07:13:46 am
content: I'm wondering if you could add solder paste dispensing to this? Perhaps replace the part sucker head with a custom syringe and injection needle. Just use same airline as the suction head but switch to a compressed air source instead of the vacuum pump.Sent from my Tablet

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 03:12:19 pm
content: Quote from: timb on February 05, 2015, 07:13:46 amUnlikely to happen, at least very soon, for a few reasons:- Using a stencil gives much more accurate paste amount, and that is crucial for reliable results.- A stencil costs about $10; the price of solder paste add-on buys quite a few stencils.- there are more crucial development directions, as mentioned on this thread: Speed and use of feeders. For speed I already have several directions to pursue, and too many people ask about feeders although personally I'm not that convinced that they are necessary for a prototype machine. Laying tape on table is easy, fast and reliable.The software is out already, and the mechanical files will be very soon. I am certainly not stopping you pursuing that direction!

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 06:58:15 pm
content: Real feeders seem quite difficult to make esp. to make them reliable.Selling some aluminium plates, each with lanes to hold different tape sizes would already help a lot since you only have to teach the machine once the position of the start of each lane.You then number the lanes and you only have to set the lane# in the software for the correct component fetching.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2015, 07:55:52 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 05, 2015, 06:58:15 pmEspecially at this price point. Besides, feeders imply production environment, which is NOT the point of my machine.QuoteThat is how the software works now. The optical recognition of the tape hole means that the "teaching" is only pointing out the area to look at. I build in the flexibility to be able to have tapes in any orientation; you can feed them in from left, right, front or back. The price is that you need to tell the machine that.I actually experimented aluminium plate/reel holders, that you can buy rather cheaply, such ashttp://www.goodluckbuy.com/smt-smd-feeder-for-diy-prototype-pick-up-place-5-way.html. Turned out those are more trouble than worth in this application:- The tape location is not accurate enough in horizontal direction => part position is not accurately found- The bottom of some SMD tapes is not that strong => Without bottom support, the pickup operation needs to be very sensitive in order not to push a small part through the tape. Having a feather light touch brings in loads of other problems- The tape location is not accurate enough horizontally, the slot is loose => If a paper tape is twisted so that the tape is as high as the slot allows, parts tend to be pushed through the tape or the pickup operation does not reach the bottom parts when the tape is twisted the other way- Peeling the cover tape needs to be done very, very carefully if the tape is not held firmly.The K.I.S.S. principle applies: There is nothing wrong with double sided tape, other than it does not feel as high tech sexy. :-)

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 12:21:33 am
content: I was thinking about making a few plates that can be prepped offline and loaded into the machine. I have done the tape trick for manual assembly and it drives me nuts. I machined a few tape holder blocks to slide various tape sizes into. This allows prepping the assembly job on a table where I have boxes of components laid out.I don't see any need for real feeders that hold reels, but similar to what DDM Novastar does on the low-end machines. Simply tape lanes that you manually advance a few inches at a time.I do agree with the paste dispenser. A stencil is worth the price generally. I have a Zephyrtronics dispenser that does a good job but I only use it when there is no alternative.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 01:06:12 am
content: Juku,Great effort.I have a small prototyping machine which has both smart feeders and the capability to process trays, cut tape and loose bulk components.Good for up to 1600 components per hour.Placing 200 to 400 components per hour is not that easy, Your machine should be a great boon.Keep up the good work and dont listen to the wankers ( aussie slang for nay sayers ).

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 05:08:57 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on February 06, 2015, 12:21:33 amI'm thinking of a 3D printable design of a tape holder that pushes the tape down from the edges (getting vertical position constant and supporting the parts from the bottom) and spring loads the tape both sideways (getting accurate position sideways). The latter is not that important, the former is.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 05:34:00 am
content: I machined pieces like that. 3D printing is very rough for this kind of application IMHO. Its an edge guide so the parts, like you said, are all at the same Z level and precisely guided for X/Y predictability. Very simple to make and use for sure.My previous career was ME and CNC machining, so I have have bad habit of fixing anything with a machined partI would machine my clothes if I had more time.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 06:26:48 am
content: A variety of cut tape feeders in use.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 06:31:56 am
content: That is a lot of tape feeders. What machine is that?

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 12:11:01 pm
content: Excellent effort, and I don't want to be overly critical, but I agree with Mike and Dave - I really don't see the point.Hand placing would be significantly faster (especially when you include setup time), and since the machine doesn't support feeders or auto loading/unloading of boards, it's not like you can let it run all day on it's own. The placement accuracy also seems quite poor... seems there is 0.010" and/or several degrees of error on many of the placements.I don't think it comes close to buying a used machine (I always recommend a Quad 4C) for the $5-7k range which will likely come with a couple dozen feeders, be orders of magnitude faster and more accurate and have factory support if necessary. I know Mike has another brand of machine he's used that also seems quite capable, and perhaps even less $$.Picking and placing is not a difficult task. What makes it hard is performing the task quickly and accurately, as well as the feeding of components. This device doesn't address any of the difficult aspects of PnP'ing.But still, a significant achievement in difficulty and you should be proud of your work.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 01:27:48 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on February 06, 2015, 12:11:01 pmYou said you don't see the point, so let me explain: The point of the machine is to help theprototypephase. Feeders, auto loading of boards and other stuff you mentioned belong to production environment. I'm the first to say this is not a production machine - for daily production, there are better options.But I do claim this is faster than handfor a prototype, unless the board is very simple. Building a board for the first or second time, you are looking up each component and its place on the board, and that is tedious and error-prone. If you are hand-placement for production, you would know the position of the components by heart, for a new board you don't. Not a big problem if your board has 20 passives and half of them are bypass caps and the other half pull-up resistors, but when you have a new board with 100+ passives (nowadays often 0603) with various values, you really don't want to do that by hand. For my designs, that would still be on the simple side. This is the problem I built the machine for. Whether the problem is universally big enough that it pays off to finish the design and software properly so others can use it too, prepare the kits, build the website and documentation and so on, we'll see. It will be interesting and fun to find out!The inherent accuracy of the machine is somewhere in 0.1 -0.15mm range and a small fraction of a degree. The machine does not look at the part itself, it uses the tape holes for location. The parts sit loosely in their pockets, and that is significant error source for placement and most of the rotational error. Still, the parts would reflow and self-align just fine. Paradoxically, 0402s are placed more accurately than 0603 - the small parts have tighter pockets.For setup: You must get parts from part storage and place them somewhere, no way around that. When you have done that, the setup is minimal. The video shows all that you have to do: turn on the machine, start the software, one click to home it, another click to select placement tab, three click to load the pick and place file (unmodified, directly from CAD system), three clicks to select all components for placement, two to exclude fiducials (you don't want to place anything there), two clicks on each component type to tell the machine where you put the tapes on and one click to place all; few seconds total. I don't know how this could be simpler?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 08:55:21 pm
content: I am also in the position where I need to quickly assemble new/unfamiliar PCB's with well over 200 components. The plan is to go with a Quad 4C from PPM for production use. The random used ones are somewhat cheaper but could also turn into a project that cost too much time - so PPM wins on Quads.With that satisfied, I like the idea of having one of these to help with prototypes and pilot runs (maybe 20 PCB's) and not disturbing the production flow. Our layouts have become so dense that silkscreens are almost useless so they are hard to assemble. If I need to make 5, 10, or 15 pcs the speed is largely kmited by my ability to focus at that level of detail for many hours. It is so easy to swap a .1uf cap for a 1uf cap and the PCB may not work.As for alignment, I would not worry about what I saw. I have hand assembled a lot of PCBs and have a feel for what will be ok in the re-flow. Even placing .5mm QFN's by free-hand vac pen placement is better than 99% successful for me and I am not a machine. The alignment I saw was better than I do manually. PCB's at this volume are 100% inspected as well, so if something is a bit off it should not matter that much.My goal is to offload the ultra tedious nature of finding hundreds of pads on a PCB with little to no silkscreen. Even the the overall time is exactly the same as manual assmebly - I would save my sanity and the machine would be worth it.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 09:26:37 pm
content: Placement accuracy is in most cases not an issue for 1-offs, and certainly not justification to spend this much money. Chip parts will usually either self-align or be on enough of the pads to make a joint even if they don't self-align.The exception is where cosmetics are important - e.g. LED arrays.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 09:42:03 pm
content: The machine is a Polish made Mechatronika M10V.I am looking to make a bunch of cut tape feeder sections of various tape widths to facilitate tighter packing density and more appropriate feeder load.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 09:44:19 pm
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on February 06, 2015, 09:42:03 pmDon't get your remark, with a starting price of over € 15.500,- that is a whole other ballgame

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 10:04:12 pm
content: Precisely KjeltIt is ten times dearer and maybe four times quicker.The resources Juku's machine offers are great value for money and certainly ought not attract the dark clouds of poo-pooing.( technical term for critical analysis)

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2015, 10:19:02 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 06, 2015, 09:26:37 pm$1,350 plus a day or 2 of assembly and fiddling is below the noise floor. If it saves me from 10 hours of focused pad searching , I will consider it a success story. My little business is in a tough middle-ground where everything we do is too big for manual work and too small for real production. Taking our PCB's to an assembly house is very slow and expensive because the primary cost is setup. Not just the machine setup, but the organization and prep we have to do just to get the job to assembly. After all that, we make a handful of PCB's and move on the next revision.My long term goal (which Corporate666 was a part of the conversation if I remember) is to have a Quad 4c maxed with feeders so we can run small qty's of a variety of PCB's. With that machine all setup and ready to go, it will be cheaper to have another little helper machine in the lab to assist in prototypes.We had the same challenge with our CNC machines. Once they are setup and dialed in for production, it was painful to do a prototype. If a few things are moved around, we would have to re-set the machine which takes a lot of time. It was faster to have a hardly used less capable machine dedicate to prototypes and modifications.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 08:22:20 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on February 06, 2015, 08:55:21 pmExactly why I built the machine! My boards don't have silkscreen either.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2015, 11:56:43 pm
content: Have you attempted any fine pitch IC's yet? QFN's? BGA?

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 09:50:25 am
content: I think it is a great project, and nicely done so far. I have been working on my own DIY machine, but not got very far. For me, speed is less of an issue than convenience. Sure I can spend 5 hours doing manual place, but I have other things to do! For mainly hobby use, I can't justify much more than $1500.The sort of jobs I am looking at are one or two off prototypes, and in future batches of maybe 10 or more boards. Mostly small boards. For 0603, some 0.5mm QFN and QFP would be really useful, as I have trouble placing those manually.I feel that supporting reels is useful, even if with manual or drag feed. Failing that, having a tray of strips I can easily swap in or out. I think that the problems with "loose" strips are surmountable. A cheap automatic feeder is like the Holy Grail of DIY PnP, I would settle for something cheap and simple.I had a look atPP4, which is like a Rolls Royce of DIY machines, but has relatively simple auto feeder which I think I could build.

author: briandorey
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 10:02:14 am
content: This looks like a very useful machine and much easier than placing components by hand for hours at a time. When we developed our own DIY pick and place we also had the issue with reliable feeders and ended up using used commercial feeders which we purchased from ebay and modified to fit our machine and uses an air ram to activate the feeders.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 03:37:06 pm
content: Quote from: briandorey on February 08, 2015, 10:02:14 amBrian, I looked at your project when doing research, and was very impressed!I think I found the feeders you refer to on ebay, and I did buy one as a sample, although shipping is rather pricey.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Panasonic-X708PB084C-8x4mm-Paper-Feeders-SMT-Placement/230858305569?rt=ncAt the time of writing, there are 7 available, as these are surplus items I'm not sure where I would find more.There is also note saying "Please note that some of the waste tape front covers are missing" not sure whether that is significant or cosmetic, and the one I received is not in best condition. Either way, £400 for a set of feeders is a bit on the high side, I was hoping to build a machine for around £500-600.Volker Besmens design for a simple auto feeder is shown herehttps://www.vbesmens.de/en/pick-and-place/automatic-feeder.html,although it would take some custom construction, I guess it would be around £150 for materials.

author: briandorey
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 05:30:49 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on February 08, 2015, 03:37:06 pmThat is the same seller who I got my feeders from and they did a very good deal on the postage costs when buying more than one feeder. The waste tape covers are a plastic disk which stops the plastic tape from falling off the spool but it would be easy to make new ones from some thin plastic or card.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 06:40:14 pm
content: @Brian, thanks for the info. I briefly tried the feeder and it seems to basically work so I will see what I can do with it.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2015, 08:47:43 pm
content: For those in the UK, Versatronics feeders would be a reasonable option, as they are multi-lane and RS232 controllede.g.e.g.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Versatronics-Pick-Place-Feeders-Smt-/291375813777?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item43d75a1491

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 06:09:16 pm
content: Quote from: JuKu on February 06, 2015, 01:27:48 pmYou would still need to look up where each component goes whether it's hand placed or machine placed. For hand placing, I would have the prototype parts either loose in a anti-static bag or a piece of cut tape. So for a prototype, I open up my original CAD file and turn on component values and I place the parts. I don't see that being slower than having to stick the tapes down to the machine bed, tell the machine where they are, what they are, set the Z offset, etc. Sure, you could say the parts would stay on the machine and you would use the same parts for prototyping multiple boards, but I do that now with tubs... I have tubs of the common parts I use and when putting together a first unit of a new design, I go to my parts storage trays and grab the parts/values I need and lay them out on the desk.QuoteSo the vision system doesn't correct part alignment? IMO that's a big drawback and the used machines I mentioned will use vision to correct part alignment on-route to the placement. The accuracy of 0.1mm doesn't help if you are relying on the position of the parts in the tape, which can be off by much more than that amount.QuoteI would bet anything that, starting from scratch (components still packaged), I can hand assemble a board much more quickly than machine placing it with this setup. I can hand place the parts much quicker than the machine does - and I don't have the programming step.Again, I hope I don't sound too critical - I think you have achieved a lot, but I think you really need to make accomodation for board loading/unloading, use of feeders, vision part alignment and changeable nozzles. Without those, the machine is slower than hand placing - even for a one-off board. Those other features are what make PnP hard (and the machines expensive). If you can add those, you would have a great hobbylist/light-production level machine that would sell for 3-4 times what you are charging now.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 06:20:52 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on February 06, 2015, 10:19:02 pmYes, we talked about this quite a bit before.I've 'been there, done that' and spent a huge amount more money than I wished I had. I've done everything from home-brew CNC machines to conversions to buying old stuff and getting it working to buying current stuff and paying alot more to have it factory maintained.I do about 10 or 20 new PCB's per year. I am sure I do pretty much what everyone else in my situation does... you tend to use the same parts again and again (like standardizing on 10k resistors for pullups where possible and using the same decoupling caps every time). So it ends up being mostly the IC's and specific value resistors/caps used for regulators or for setting voltage levels. I order the parts I need from Digikey at the same time I order my proto PCB's. I've found the guy on here selling the mylar laser-cut stencils (sorry, forgot your business name) is a lifesaver too, so I order those at the same time as well.When my boards arrive, I silkscreen 2 or 3 test units and grab all the necessary parts and put them all on my desk, then hand assemble with tweezers. For a board with - say - 50 different parts, it takes me maybe 30 minutes from start to finish.I honestly don't see any way that the machine in this thread can be set up, components staged, board inserted and programmed and board placed in anywhere close to that amount of time. All you are doing is automating the pick and place functions which are not the bottleneck of board placement... and those functions can be done faster by hand than by a slow machine.The idea of "just let it run while I'm off doing other stuff" sounds good - I used to think the same thing, but when the machine needs a level of attention such that in the time it takes to program it and lay out all the parts, you could have just hand placed the board... then it's not a time saver. And if you get to the point where it becomes worth it because you can set it up and place 10 or 20 boards, then you're at the point where a Quad 4C makes sense.Again, sorry to the OP if it sounds like I am crapping on the product, but well-intentioned feedback that gives you a false sense of utility is not doing you any favors... there is a reason nobody sells PnP's without feeders, vision correction or board auto-loading... they just don't save time over hand placing or semi-automatic placement.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 07:52:48 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on February 09, 2015, 06:20:52 pmFor any parts there are more than a few of, foot-operated vacuum pen picking from tape is a lot quicker than tweezers.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2015, 11:34:24 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 09, 2015, 07:52:48 pmI don't doubt it... but for my prototypes, the parts are loose in small plastic tubs like these:http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2793691&KPID=3877794&kpid=3877794&pla=pla_3877794I use a 12x12" sheet of 1/2" thick acrylic (flat and smooth and can be back lit or be placed over the PCB printout) and dump out a few hundred of the parts and then just cherry pick the ones that are already in the correct orientation and place on the board.I just find tape strips hard to handle. If I cut them from full reels, it means a bunch of parts get lost in loading that reel into the feeder, and a partially opened section of tape is a pain in the ass to store and label.I often thought that a device that holds reels, untapes the parts and advances to the next component would be great for hand placement with a vaccum pen. A Quad feeder would do this nicely - it's 12V, self contained, requires no air and automatically advances to the next part when an IR beam over the component is broken. Just too expensive to buy a dozen for a hand placed board.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 12:07:42 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on February 09, 2015, 06:20:52 pmIf you read the page about the reason for creating the machine, it may become clearer to you the specific use case - for the types of prototypes that he produces, it takes him 3 hours of manual placing work with a vac pickup to populate one (already pasted) board, 450 SMD parts on a board. I'd say that would be enough to drive me to make my own PnP as well.Quote

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 12:48:08 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on February 10, 2015, 12:07:42 amYes, if your workshop is air-conditioned (refrigerative), the paste would likely have well dried out in that time.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 01:31:12 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on February 10, 2015, 12:07:42 amI just don't see how it's faster.The machine seems to have a placement to placement time of about 10 seconds. That's about 3 times slower than a person can achieve. In either human or machine placement, you need to prepare the parts, and it will be at least as slow (likely slower) to prep the parts for machine placement. But then you have the additional task of programming the machine. Even if you load your BOM and parts locations automatically, you still need to go through and program the machine where the source parts are and where all the destinations are. If it's a few seconds per part, then in the same amount of time you could have just placed it by hand.Now if you were going to leave your parts setup on the machine so you could run multiple boards, then you achieve an economy of scale by having to only setup the machine once, but if you are running multiple boards - then you immediately run into issues with lack of feeders and lack of board transport in/out of the machine. It's nice not to have to do the actual placing one's self, but again - it's going to take a lot longer than just placing it by hand, and an occasional one-off by hand is no biggie and if one is doing enough to warrant buying a machine, it should at least be faster and more capable than hand placement.Don't get me wrong - I am not saying the machine is junk... I think it is a good first crack at the problem. But the problem is well defined - tons of people have tried to make DIY PnP machines over the years, and the hard-to-solve problems are feeding of components, vision (board skew adjustment and part misalignment) and board loading/unloading. We had a big thread about this a while back. If the OP can solve the feeder, on-the-fly vision and board loading/unloading issues, he will have a very valuable product on his hand if it can be <$5,000 (the price of a TM-240), or even better if <$3,600 (the price of a TM-220A). Just picking and placing from taped down sections of reels is something you can do with Mach8 and a cheap Chinese CNC machine or even an old plotter or motorized XY table. Solving the vision and feeding problem would be revolutionary.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 01:33:30 am
content: Quote from: DerekG on February 10, 2015, 12:48:08 amKester R276 has a rated tack time of 8+ hours at room temperature. We all know solder paste specs are overly pessimistic and in real world use, I've placed boards 4 or 5 days after pasting without a single issue.If the paste is losing tack at 3 hours, the paste is junk.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 04:59:31 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on February 10, 2015, 01:31:12 amI don't really agree. Humans can place in bursts only. When there is a an all new PCB it takes a lot longer than 10 seconds to find the pad, find the part, place it, and then confirm that you didn't just place R23 where C56 goes. it is very true that manual and automatic placement still require planning and setup to get the parts in order, but placing a large pad count PCB is way slower than 10 seconds per part - unless you ccan make a lot of mistakes and your circuit still works.As I said earlier, my PCB's are generally too dense for a workable silkscreen AND they have hundreds of parts. The mind-numbing nature of it takes its toll on speed, accuracy, and repeat-ability. For PCBs that I have memorized, I can burst place 0805 passives at about 200CPH (measured) which is 18 seconds per placement. I can keep that up for maybe 15 minutes at a time. At the end, I am fried and hate life. If this little helps could do a part every 10 seconds with no fatigue and not mixup components - it will be heroic in book. A new PCB that I have not created my little color-coded layout references for take WAY longer than 18 sec per part.I see it like an auto pilot in an airplane. the pilot can certainly fly the whole time, but the auto-pilot is used to take the tedious part and let the pilot monitor it with a clear mind. Then, when it is time to land and the pilot must be in direct control, they are ready to go. I will say again, even if this machine saved no time at all, it will save my mind. Although I suspect it will save a bunch of time and help me push through prototype and pilot production PCB's.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 05:46:46 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on February 10, 2015, 01:33:30 amThe paste was good. The bright (and warm) lights of the microscope were the biggest culprit, I think. (I can't place 0603s manually without good vision help.)

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 06:06:35 am
content: You don't like the machine, so don't buy it. :-) I'd still like to comment on few points:Quote from: Corporate666 on February 09, 2015, 06:20:52 pmNo matter how you do placement, you have to get the parts out of storage and lay them out on your work area, there is no way around that. Attaching component strips with double sided tape is not a big deal, and stripping the cover tape is much easier when the tape is held down firmly. I used to tape part strips on a piece of cardboard when doing hand-placement, because it made handling the tape without the cover tape much easier.The beginning of the video shows all "programming" you need to do for a new board: Few clicks for overall start, two clicks for each part type., you could have just hand placed the board... then it's not a time saver. And if you get to the point where it becomes worth it because you can set it up and place 10 or 20 boards, then you're at the point where a Quad 4C makes sense.QuoteAll these imply production. My machine is not good for that, nor do I imply it is. It is for prototypes. Rx8pilot has explained the problem already. I built the machine because I needed it badly and couldn't find one to buy. And because I had the need, I guessed that someone else might want it too,. So I wrote the documentation, setup the web site and shop and I am in process of setting up kits for shipping. We'll see if my guess was right to justify the extra effort. Ask me again in an year or so, I know by then. :-)

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 06:47:51 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on February 10, 2015, 01:31:12 amThereabouts. First part of a part type is somewhat slower as the machine is measuring the part height.Quote3 sec per part? That is very, very good. I would think that that requires parts all in one orientation and a board that the person knows by heart (no looking at documentation). I can do a tad under 10 sec with these conditions. I would think 10 secs humanly impossible for an unfamiliar board with parts oriented randomly. But I've seen seemingly impossible feats on Youtube, so I'm just saying that very few people can beat my machine at the task it is built for, although it does not come close to real production machines, nor is it built for production.QuoteParts preparing is about the same. Programming is two clicks for each part type, which comes down to a small fraction of a second per part.QuoteFeeders and board loading imply production, which is not the point. The machine uses vision for machine calibration(1), part position measurement(2) and fiducials recognition(3).1) Most done when building the machine. At startup, homing. At run time when the pickup needle is changed, the needle wobble is optically measured and compensated.2) It is looking for the tape hole, it can't see a black component in a black tape pocket. the tape pocket is bigger than the part, and that is not taken into account currently. That error source is smaller than reflow self-alignment.3) Measuring the location of fiducials corrects for board position, board placement rotation, scale errors and skew errors. I don't see how a CNC could place parts without these taken into account. Board position and placement rotation are always significant by my experience. Scale errors come to play with self-made boards (laser printers are not dimensionally accurate) and bigger professional boards. I don't really know id skew (squares being slightly diamond-shaped) has any significance, but it is taken into account anyway.The machine software is not a complete vision solution, but even if I may say so myself, it is a decent step or two in that direction - and available now for hobbyists and company internal use, Github repo is athttps://github.com/jkuusama/LitePlacer.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 09:09:49 am
content: Quote from: JuKu on February 10, 2015, 06:47:51 amGroups of same parts from tape can be well under 2 secs, so an aggregate rate for a design you know well ( because you just designed it) , of 5 secs per part is very doable.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 09:15:13 am
content: QuoteYou don't need to tell it where the destinations are, or the orientations, as this comes from the pick/place data from your PCB software.You just need to map part types to feed positions.Similarly the fiducials can be embdded in the Pick/place data (e.g. by having a fid as a part), so you don't need to teach that.A big part of creating an efficient process for low volumes is to streamline the data preperation as much as possible, e.g. making your parts library has consistent orientation with respect to the tape orientation in feeders.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 10:04:15 am
content: 2 - 3 seconds manual placing time? That is remarkable! Also, a rather dubious claim!Even if that is true, that would put you into the "expert" category. Oh, how to be young again, with steady hands and perfect visionI am lucky to get 10 times that, even on boards I designed. And I can't sustain the effort very long.The logic of the objectors is"I don't need this DIY machine, therefore no-one else does"which is obviously flawed, and rather short sighted IMO.Clearly, the DIY PnP is not designed for expert professionals who have no problem placing 1500cph, or who have a business where $10k layout is not a problem. For the rest of us, amateurs, hobbyists, non-engineers, normal people, any automatic assistance would be helpful.Tbh, "an expert can do it faster/better" is completely missing the point, and is the kind of luddite reasoning aimed at many automated processes. My friend's wife refused to contemplate owning a dishwasher, said there was no point, it was a waste of money etc. After a few weeks with one, she now refuses to contemplatenothaving one.Can we make a deal, if we say this type of DIY machine is "for non-experts", can the experts stop saying it is no use for experts?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 04:51:26 pm
content: This is definitely fullfilling a niche i think.What would be great IMO is if you can also manually control the machine (with joystick?) and that the camera would show the part orientation,nozzle and exact location below it so you can also use it for manually assisted placing as some manual P&P machines can.Still wondering what that large black disc on the nozzle is or does? It blocks the vision of the nozzle?

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 05:34:44 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 10, 2015, 04:51:26 pmCan't do without adding another camera. The camera needs to look straight down. Hmm, maybe the software could take a snapshot and overlay it on the video, when operator is happy press a button and machine puts the part down where the image was shown. I need to think this.QuoteThe needle/nozzle is calibrated by looking the tip with up looking camera. The black disc blocks the needle attachment from up looking camera, so the camera only sees the tip.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 06:44:16 pm
content: Quote from: JuKu on February 10, 2015, 05:34:44 pmNot sure about that look at this video at 1 minute 25 seconds. That kind of components would really like to be placed very accurately.They do it with a 45 degree rotating camera as it looks?QuoteAh ofcourse you have an upview camera for parts rotation orientation, didn't realize that. Same as in the machine that Mike has.You know that could also be used for refining the placement (if the part is a bit off the exact axis of the nozzle), thereby correcting the possible backlash of components in their storage strip.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 07:56:17 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on February 10, 2015, 10:04:15 amfoot-operated vacuum pen.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 10:28:15 pm
content: For an individual component, I can do 2-3 seconds per part when timing from one placement to placement. I would have to know exactly where it was and where it was going and its orientation. This is not even slightly realistic for a BOM with 50 components and a total of a few hundred components. I never measure how long it takes to put a resistor on a PCB, I measure how long it takes to populate the entire PCB and then divide by the number of components.3 seconds per place is 1200 CPH. There may be one or two humans that could pull that off with a lot of planning and practicing on a specific board but I would say that no human alive or has ever lived could take a PCB (even one they have personally designed) and make the first five pieces at anywhere close to that rate.I have a new PCB on the way that I designed myself. It will be here on Friday or so. It has about 160 components all of which have been kitted in special holders in the order that they are placed and I have color coded reference documents prepared to help match the components with the pads. This is an ideal setup for manual placing since everything is in place and in order. I have a PCB holder, vac pen, and a microscope together with a few thousand hours of manual assembly experience.The first PCB from the time it lands under the microscope til it is on the way to the oven will be 90 minutes or so since I have to verify every placement. The second one will take about 45 min if all goes well, and it will eventually stabilize at about 30 minutes per PCB after I have most of it memorized. I am not exactly world record material, but I am faster than most and make very few mistakes. To make the first two PCB's for testing would be about 2hrs 15min of actual placement time - about 146CPH + plus the despicable mental focus necessary.At 10 s/part (360CPH) the first PCB would take about 28min. The second one would take 28min. The setup time is probably no different the programming effort would be very similar to the color coded paperwork I do for manual. We have the same task done over an hours sooner and it was a lot less frustrating in the process. As you see, it will take about the same amount of time after I have the PCB memorized, but by then the prototype effort is done and it moves on to more proper production. This is not liekly a machine that can go unattended for long, but I can be prepping tapes and doing other ancillary tasks as to puts down resistors automatically.This is all assuming the machine itself is working and reliable which I cannot speak to, I am just saying that 360CPH is a VAST improvement over 100% hand placing. Humans are not made for this task, machines are. At the price, plus whatever mods and effort I may put in - I only have to do a few PCBs for it to make sense. I still have my bigger plan to get a 4C, but I would rather have both of them for different tasks. This little machine can be right next to my bench.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 12:26:46 pm
content: Quote from: JuKu on February 10, 2015, 05:34:44 pmI made some experiments towards this. Obviously the snapshot image quality needs enhancement, but this image tells the idea:The machine knows very well the relationship of the needle and camera, so you don't really need to see where the needle is going, the camera image is enough. The machine can take a look at a difficult part, build a snapshot and take the image over the placement at roughly the correct orientation and position. The user fine-tunes the placement (there are already several methods of moving it manually) and when happy, the machine places the part where the image shows it is going. This would work for BGAs too by taking the snapshot with the up looking camera.(Edit: clearer explanation)

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 12:59:06 pm
content: That looks very promising

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2015, 11:10:29 pm
content: Yes, if it has the potential to place QFN's and QFP's it would be fantastic.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2015, 08:47:17 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on February 24, 2015, 11:10:29 pmClearly, the _potential is there. I am confident that I can also convert the potential to actual cabability. :-) (BGAs, too)

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2015, 05:53:22 pm
content: Quote from: JuKu on February 25, 2015, 08:47:17 amI would love to have a reliable way to prototype with BGA's. I have been pushing my PCB layouts to the limits and the next step is incorporating blind/buried vias, via in pad, and using smaller passives with minimum pads. At the moment, most of my designs have been in the realm of hand soldering (although I almost never hand solder anymore). I now have a proper stencil printer and a professional convection reflow oven. Very happy to see this project progressing.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2015, 02:32:18 pm
content: KiCad* and DipTrace are now supported.*Note to KiCad users: The current version of KiCad allows you to put spaces to component value. The KiCad generated .pos file is space separated, and the field width can change. These don’t fit together, and this will change in a future version of KiCad. So, spaces in values are not accepted without quotes around them (this is how I’m told the KiCad will behave in the future).

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2015, 08:45:24 pm
content: I just purchased a Quad IVC for a very good price so I will not be doing this machine yet. The goal was to buy/build this first and get the Quad later, but the opportunity to get the Quad with 55 feeders came up and had to jump on it.I still think this is a great idea and will still benefit me as an addition to the Quad pick and place machine.

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2015, 08:41:15 pm
content: Do you have a video of it placing parts on a bigger board?I kinda want to buy one just to make my work a bit easier.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2015, 07:14:47 am
content: I don't, but it would look much to same. What is your concerns about big boards?

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2015, 08:31:27 am
content: Quote from: JuKu on March 03, 2015, 07:14:47 amNo real concerns, It would just make me feel better about it

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 11:04:25 am
content: Bought one. Will do a review off my experience with it when it arrives.

author: zeke
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 08:25:10 pm
content: JuKu, I am impressed. Well Done!I watched the placement demo video and now I have two questions:Do you have a demo video of it placing things like QFNs or power inductors?Do you think you could crank up the speed of the servos more like the TM220A?Would it tear itself apart if the speed was increased?

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2015, 09:32:13 am
content: Quote from: zeke on March 04, 2015, 08:25:10 pm1. Will do at some point. Right now I need to prepare some kits.2. Not that fast. Beefier motors and power supply would bring up the speed but I haven't tried it.3. The motors would run out of torque first. Ok, I guess if you put in really big motors and really big power supply you could make it go bang.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2015, 07:05:27 pm
content: Now in stock.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 05:23:01 pm
content: Any movement? It seems like a fantastic project.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2015, 11:41:44 am
content: FYII now have one of these kits.Unboxing video coming shortly, then will get David2 to built and we'll have a play around.Sorry, haven't been following the thread, its can't do QFN or QFP?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2015, 04:54:18 pm
content: Excellent news, D2 should have some fun. I should be done with my cut tape feeder in the next few days - may work with that machine.Hoping it can do QFN.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2015, 06:00:09 pm
content: Juku to sound like juki?anyway I got an idea to see parts (at least three sides) while they are being placed - flat mirror at 45" with a hole for the needle + camera at 90" to the needle.or even a cone at 45" like those 360" ball mirrors, no need to attach camera to the needle with a coneedit:option 2 - camera in the center, vacuum line bending around on the side, going narrow (steel needle) back to center and ending in the noozlefocus will be main problem

author: M4trix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2015, 06:28:39 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 26, 2015, 11:41:44 amC'mon Dave! One day has already passed! You know what does that mean?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2015, 08:29:54 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on April 26, 2015, 06:00:09 pmYou need to image the underside, not the top, and you need to do it against a uniform background.My Versatronics handles this nicely - when the head moves all the way up, it flips a 45 degree mirror under the head to vision the part with a horizontal camera.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 01:03:19 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 26, 2015, 11:41:44 amShort answer: Not yet. With the next software version: Yes, with operator assistance and maybe automatically as well.Long answer: See the previous page.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 01:10:23 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on April 26, 2015, 06:00:09 pm:lol:It comes fromJuhaKuusama. I got the nickname in the eighties when I went to Nokia to work on the very first GSM phone. Nokia used initials everywhere. JK was already taken, as was JKu, so I became JuKu. In Finnish language, that is easy to pronounce and means "Wow", so it stuck.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 01:20:11 pm
content: Quote from: M4trix on April 26, 2015, 06:28:39 pmThe unboxing video is already uploaded and waiting

author: Royce
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 05:53:17 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 27, 2015, 01:20:11 pmNice! Looking forward to the review.

author: M4trix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 11:12:28 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 27, 2015, 01:20:11 pmGood!

author: Icchan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 05:41:39 am
content: If you're able to facilitate reels, increase the machine's speed by using better motors / controller and give it some code that it can understand when things are going badly (lost part -> lost vacuum), this can be very good machine.It's doing accurate enough job as it is (im quite suprised by the robustness of your vision algorithms), but the speed and reliability can be an issue regarding mechanical things like components not being exactly straight in the tape.Good software is paramount since you want to decrease the setup time to be low enough that it makes sense to use it even with smaller boards and less frequent work.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 07:25:27 am
content: > im quite suprised by the robustness of your vision algorithmsNot mine:http://www.aforgenet.com/framework/> components not being exactly straight in the tapeThat error is smaller than what surface tension corrects at reflow.> you want to decrease the setup time to be low enough that it makes sense to use it even with smaller boards and less frequent work.I think I'm there as far as setup goes.You need to get the parts out of your storage on your work area, there is no way around that. With the machine, you put them down with double sided tape by a ruler and a couple of mouse clicks tells the machine which tapes are where.Of course, the software can be improved to no end. the hardware first revision is done, so this will be the focus for next few months. (First on the todo list: Speed improvements, small pitch IC placement, BGAs)

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 08:20:39 am
content: @JuKuI have a couple question about the parts pickup.- If a part is missing from the tape will the system carry on an pick up the next available?- If I was working on several projects at once (normal) could I mount the tape/parts on a sheet of class or other hard surface material and use that on the bed? This would allow me to work on multiple projects and save setup time.- Is is possible to slide tape onto the bed from an outside reel? I realize this would require the user to build a special carrier to hold the tape flat but it would be very convenient. I use certain parts all the time and having them live on the machine even if they have to moved manually into a carrier would be a time saver.The machine looks very nice, I'm looking forward to the review.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 10:07:16 am
content: > If a part is missing from the tape will the system carry on an pick up the next available?It does not notice and makes a dummy placement. The vision uses tape strip holes for location, not the parts themselves. (The goal was to make prototyping as fluent as possible; training the vision for all the parts out there kind of defeats that purpose. On the other hand, there are only three types of tapes, and training for the hole is about the easiest image recognition task there is.> could I mount the tape/parts on a sheet of class or other hard surface material and use that on the bed?Yes, you could. You need to figure out a standard way of doing this, so that the part strips end up close to same location when you change the sheet for the machine to find them, but that doesn't sound hard at all.> Is is possible to slide tape onto the bed from an outside reel?Why not? You would still want to use the tape to attach the parts to the table so that the part tape lays flat and give support from the bottom (some resistor tapes have weak underside). Also, the software remembers where it left off an a particular tape. You could put a long strip of standard parts on the table and only replace them when the whole strip is used. The width of the machine has room for 125 or so 0805 resistors.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 11:42:19 am
content: Quote from: JuKu on May 04, 2015, 10:07:16 amIs it perhaps an idea to add a vacuumsensor to the pickup head and warn the operator if there is not enough vacuum after the pickup ergo there is no part pickedup or not good picked up.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 04:12:34 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 04, 2015, 11:42:19 amIs the vision system only on the head or is there another camera that can see the device on the needle? Certainly that could be used to determine if a component pickup was a failure.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 04:31:02 pm
content: There is an up looking camera as well, that is used to calibrate out the needle wobble. Using it for checking component presence could be done, but would make the machine very slow. The pickup is very reliable, I don't think camera checking is needed.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 05:26:03 pm
content: Quote from: JuKu on May 04, 2015, 04:31:02 pmSo if you place more components than needed for a run you would need to indicate the next starting point for a board if you went back to it at a later date. Does it save starting points for the components or expect all tapes to be full? Are polarity sensitive devices and chips checked for orientation before placement?

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 05:42:16 pm
content: > So if you place more components than needed for a run you would need to indicate the next starting point...No; if you put 50 components on the table but use only 17, next time these parts are needed, the machine continues from spot 18.> Are polarity sensitive devices and chips checked for orientation before placement?When you set up the tape positions, you tell the machine also the rotation of the parts on the tape.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 09:36:14 pm
content: Quote from: JuKu on May 04, 2015, 05:42:16 pmIs that count information in a saved file? Can it be reloaded if for example another setup was done?Do you have any video of chips being placed? Or even a couple of shots of how accurately it does the placement?And yes I have a million questions.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 06:09:27 am
content: > Is that count information in a saved file?Yes.> Can it be reloaded if for example another setup was done?Not currently, but this is a good idea.> Do you have any video of chips being placed? Or even a couple of shots of how accurately it does the placement?What I have now is shown onhttp://www.liteplacer.com/introduction-f-a-q/page. Those are actual results. As said, IC placement improvements are next on the development. Once there are results on this, there will be videos and more images.

author: matkar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2015, 04:03:36 pm
content: Hi JuKu!I'm following your thread for quite some time now and it seems that one of the biggest concerns users have is the speed of placement. A year ago I did a research since I had the idea of building my own P&P and found some nice NEMA8 dual hollow shaft stepper motors to be used on P&P head for rotating the component. You can basically place four of them instead of one NEMA17 motor in the same space and you can duct the vacuum through the shaft instead of using a separate P&P shaft mechanism you drive with a NEMA17 and a belt.I'm sure using four heads (or even two) would increase the speed substantially. It might be worth a try.Here is the link to such a motor:http://www.aliexpress.com/item/NEMA8-Hollow-Shaft-Stepper-Motor-for-pick-n-place-head/1228145416.html

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 02:38:03 pm
content: Courtesy of Elektor Magazine,A timelapse video of their build:And a photo gallery:http://www.liteplacer.com/mechanical_assembly_gallery/

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2016, 01:15:04 am
content: what's this horrible text to speech thing