Has anyone used aisler.net ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 06:34:02 pm
content: I used PCB shopper and found aisler.net They claim to do a 4 layer 95x95mm PCB for 122 euro. Is this possible? Are they any good?

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 06:47:13 pm
content: Ten (!) 100x100mm PCBs with 4 layers will cost less than half of that (<$50) if done in China, so why should it be impossible?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 06:53:49 pm
content: not really, next best offer from china was 150, this is 7 day turn around. I am sure that with longer leads price goes down. PCB cart wan't nearly 300 for 8 days

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 07:09:32 pm
content: You didn't mention a time constraint, did you?Anyway e.g. Elecrow states 5-8 working days (without shipping of course) and 96h rush service adds another $40. You can save another day by additional $20.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 07:13:08 pm
content: I just tried them, no complaints. It was a reboot of an old project so a pretty basic 2-layer board mostly THT plus a few SMD parts so not the best to benchmark for quality, but looked fine to me.I ordered on Oct 5th, they were shipped on 11th and they actually arrived I think about Weds 16th.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 07:29:42 pm
content: I'm amazed that I can upload my kicad file and that they add an option to make a donation to kicad. Yes my boss will be paying the donation.......

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 07:45:41 pm
content: My first order with them went out for production, earlier today. Mine was also a fairly unambitious, two layer, through hole design. I will closely inspect them with a stereo microscope. If you like, I can post pictures of their workmanship.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 07:49:11 pm
content: I'm ordering tomorrow so thank you for the offer but won't help much

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 10:48:57 am
content: I the end I went to Wurth Elektronik. They were marginally more expensive than PCB train in 10 working days but do it in 6.I will personally aisler out myself later but I did not want to take the risk on a work project that has a schedule.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 01:51:23 pm
content: Eurocircuits wants 90 euro for 1 PCB done in 3 days. They have really slashed their prices recently.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2019, 01:40:44 pm
content: The boards from Aisler were in my mail box this morning, five days after I ordered them. Overall, their German fab did very clean and precise work. Two boards, however, suffered what appear to be tool strikes, late in production.I have sent the two pictures to Aisler and am awaiting their response.

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2019, 06:39:47 pm
content: I've been happy with Aisler. They are a good alternative for OSHpark for EU based customers. Especially when you want the board as fast as possible.For price, you still need to go to China.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 28, 2019, 09:37:38 am
content: I've used Aisler for a couple of small PCBs in the past. The quality is really quite nice. I did have one board where the drilling was a tad off, but that was a one-off, it seems. All other boards were fine. I've done 2- and 4 layer boards.I'm not super-happy about the turn-around time. They're collection designs just like OSHPark and then sending panels off to manufacturing after filling them. I can order PCBs from China and have them delivered faster than I can get them from Aisler. But their interface for uploading board files and their Gerber viewer are top notch.Be careful when uploading KiCAD files, they don't seem to check if your copper zones are up to date. I got bitten by that once.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 03:11:44 pm
content: Just a late follow up. After getting no reply from Aisler for a few weeks, I e-mailed them again, this time to their general inquiry address, hello@aisler.net.Felix promptly replied, excused their late reply and resubmitted the design that had suffered tool strikes. The replacement boards arrived ten days later, as promised, and look fine.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 08:29:06 pm
content: I've had no luck with contacting them lately. I have a question about their 4 layer stack up that's unanswered for a few weeks now, another one for a board that I wanted to try their new blitz fabrication with that in back late and with ENIG finish instead of HASL.Not happy with their communication as of late.

author: paddi
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 01:42:40 pm
content: Let me just help out right here within this threadEmail is really crowed right now...Quote from: thinkfat on October 28, 2019, 09:37:38 amBecause of this issue we now re-fill all zones on import.Anyway, we give a 100% manufacturing guarantee on our Board Inspector renderings. Use the power and check them carefully. After import we generate the final production data immediately so you're able to inspect them.If you've any questions, feel free to ask. I'm here to help.Cheers,PatrickCo-Founder of AISLER

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 02:54:05 pm
content: Quote from: paddi on December 23, 2019, 01:42:40 pmHi Patrick, that is an excellent addition to the import frontend!While you're here, maybe you can answer the following questions about the 4-layer stack up I sent via email and that still aren't answered:Could you confirm the data on this page is correct:https://aisler.net/help/design-rules-and-specifications/4-layer-pcb-stackup1) Permittivity (epsilon-r): Your stack-up specifies permittivity for theouter layer pre-preg is 4.28, but the datasheet for ISOLA FR408 says e.g. 3.67@2GHz for a bareskin stripline.2) According to the same picture, copper thickness on the outer layers is0.018mm and 0.035mm on the inner layers. This is quite unusual, typically, theouter layers are 0.035mm and inner layers are 0.018mm.A clarification (and justification for deviating from usual practice) would beappreciated.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 04:17:46 pm
content: Quote from: paddi on December 23, 2019, 01:42:40 pmIs that since I made Felix aware of this thread..?QuoteThat's interesting, because I've just had an email saying 3/3 of my boards have failed electrical inspection, yet they pass DRC here. The only thing I can think of is I may have uploaded them with a bad fill? Will you be providing details of how / where they failed?

author: paddi
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 25, 2019, 11:40:46 am
content: QuoteCorrect is the value from the datasheet. We've to fix the graphics accordingly.QuoteThis is indeed the current stackup, we're working on an improved stackup which will be available in Q1 2020.QuoteWe're working on an online visualization of all checks and fails but for this order we're not able to provide any further insights

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2020, 04:08:16 pm
content: Quote from: paddi on December 25, 2019, 11:40:46 amOK, I'm a biiiit disappointed now. You "fixed" the graphics, instead of updating the values you've removed them entirely. The text still reads:QuoteDoes that mean you'll add the values back or that I need to read through the datasheet of the laminate and prepreg to extract them?

author: jmw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2020, 10:15:43 pm
content: Has anyone worked with them very recently? They haven't answered or acknowledged email questions for over a week, and graphics like their stackup and clearance rules have disappeared from the website. I'm beginning to wonder if they are in some distress.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2020, 10:21:57 pm
content: Quote from: jmw on January 28, 2020, 10:15:43 pmThey may be just busy. I have just ordered and received PCBs from them. You can find the thread in my posting history in my profile.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2020, 07:26:46 am
content: I'm still waiting for a reply to my email asking why I had to do separate orders instead of one big one and will i receive an invoice.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2020, 11:12:13 am
content: I ordered 2 designes yesterday evening (both 4 layers), I was truly amazed of their frontend and gerber viewer, second to none!The price is somewhat higher than JLC (where I normally get my prototypes from), but combined with a little less for shipping it ends somewhat similar. The big difference (to JLC etc) is that if I want more than 3 PCB of a given order, the price just multiplies (unless "series production" is selected for the order)I ordered one of the boards with express delivery, and the other just with normal free delivery. As I understand from their website, the 2 boards will be bundled together in shipping so both are sent "express".I'll report back once I get the boards.Oh, and email support was stellar ! I submitted these 2 first designs after "normal closing hours" yesterday evening (I was as usual lateand there were instant replies from Felix about a couple of stupid questions I had, questions that I easily managed to find answers on their website once I looked....Crossing my fingers for this one!

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2020, 12:01:07 pm
content: Mixed experiences TBH over the half dozen prototype boards I've submitted over the past few months. A big problem seems to be that they are a nice front end to outsourced manufacturing so there's basically no in-house quality control. So far I've had:1. Strike marks from a drill, a bit like if you drill something on tbe bench and the drill breaks through leaving a dinple, one of which managed to strike a track. This was on one of 3 boards, and as I didn't need all 3 wasn't a problem for me.2. One can upload a design to the "playground" which gives you a day or so to make any changes. As it happened I did change a design so re-uploaded the file - the board was made with the new design just fine, but the stencil was for the old design. Fortunately the change was just 2 x 0603 passives which I hand-soldered afterwards.3. A board design with 0.15mm track clearance - I got an email saying it had failed electrical testing then I received the boards to find that a) they were 2oz copper and b) under-etched. After nagging I finally got the boards re-made which arrived yesterday 3 weeks after the original order.I've used them so far as they seem a fair compromise between speed & cost although recent experiences have put me off. I suspect that they've probably over-stretched themselves as a startup relying on a website, processes and scripts to make everything happen and now enjoying a taste of reality.I did make them aware of this thread a little while ago so hopefully they'll be reading and take note...

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2020, 12:07:19 pm
content: Just as a test, I tried submitting the same design (135 x 135 mm, 4 layer) to both Aisler and to JLCPCB.One of the differences is that you can select different colors of the soldermask at JLCPCB, Aisler is only green.Also the number of boards (in increments of 3) at Aisler, drives the price up linearly, while at JLCPCB there is a lot less impact depending on the number of boards you order (and Aisler only offers 1,2 and 4 layers, JLC goes to 6 layers)The price for 5 pcs of the board at JLC is €58,16 + €23,18 (DHL, which will give approx the same delivery time as boards from Aisler)Price for the same board a 3 pcs at Aisler is €75,60, my guess is that using their free shipping (here in Europe) will give more or less the same total time as JLC using DHL. Might be different around the world though! (Aisler offers "over night" shipping for an extra €15!)A stencil from both places is at JLC €6,36 (topside only, 15x15 cm) and at Aisler it is €15,75.Not too bad for a European manufacturer!EDIT: If the points from "nali" in the post before mine is taken care ofAlso, VAT etc is NOT taken into account in the above, which tips it even more towards Aisler!!

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2020, 03:23:28 pm
content: That 0% VAT makes me curious. Are you ordering as a VAT registered company or as private person?

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2020, 03:26:32 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on January 29, 2020, 03:23:28 pmAs a VAT registered company

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2020, 03:38:36 pm
content: Ah, that clears that up. Thanks.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2020, 08:19:16 am
content: Quote from: cgroen on January 29, 2020, 11:12:13 amYesterday I got the first 2 orders from Aisler. The boards looks very nicely done, the silkscreen is absolutely stunning, the surface (ENIG) looks very nice too!Below are two pictures of the boards. I have a 3rd order coming today from them (somewhat larger board of 255 x 100 mm). All boards so far have been 4 layers.One thing that is really nice at Aisler is the ability to upload new revisions right up to the point where the boards enter production (in my cases this was a day later than I ordered them)

author: jmw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 11:03:25 pm
content: I got my order back and they didn't invert the plane layers like I required, so they have no ground plane, no power plane, and are going straight to the bin. They also never answered any of my previous emails, and if there's still nobody manning the ship when I request a refund, I'll just go through my credit card company. This outfit seems it's in over its head.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 11:53:58 pm
content: Quote from: jmw on February 18, 2020, 11:03:25 pmSo, you did check their gerber viewer and the layers were as they should be? Not all board manufacturers support negative layers. JLCPCB doesn't, as far as I know.But I agree, they're not very responsive over email. The couple of times I used Aisler I checked the PCB in the gerber viewer and recreated the files if necessary, until it looked good in the viewer. Never tried asking them any special treatment of plane layers, either.

author: jmw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 12:19:54 am
content: OSHPark and JLCPCB have handled negative plane layers correctly for me. They've also sent me occasional questions about other things so they must have techs who inspect the Gerbers, and based on the lack of email thing, I suspect Aisler doesn't have staff in that role. I'm using Circuit Studio from Altium, which like Designer, plots plane layers as negatives and doesn't seem to have an option to do otherwise.edit: I tried the PCB viewer and I can see the problem now. I was unsure at the time of the order, so sent them an email to confirm things, since I totally missed the button to turn off the solder mask plotting which obscures the internal layers. My bad there, but I would probably design the viewer to make internal layers and solder mask plotting mutually exclusive.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 12:33:33 am
content: Quote from: jmw on February 19, 2020, 12:19:54 amGood to know. Last time I checked, JLCPCB didn't support negative layers and in fact they still have this in their technical FAQ for Altium products:QuoteI think there's at least some people in Aisler reviewing orders, but I guess they're mostly relying on their web frontend to sort out stuff for them. I just recently had a case where one of my boards violated a constraint and it was not caught by any review (looked good in the Gerber viewer, too). They remade the boards.

author: jmw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 01:02:18 am
content: For JLC, I've actually had no problems with sending them .GP1/2 files. I hope the public health situation stabilizes over there soon. For OSHPark, I learned that I could manually edit the .GPx files in a text editor and add a line "%IPNEG*%" near the start, and it would fix their viewer. OSHPark support told me some human still has to invert the layer when they do paneling, but they know about this Gerber directive and auto-flag it. I'll see if that fixes Aisler's internal layer plotting now that I know how to show internal layers without solder mask (ugh), but they might have the same issue as OSHPark.edit: %IPNEG*% didn't work in Aisler's viewer, so they must not recognize it. Seems like it's still a valid GerberX2 as KiCAD's viewer shows an inverted plot.Also, these misaligned drill hits (in particular on the right in the second row of 4 vias) on 1 of the 3 boards would have shorted the power and ground planes, if they were there. Altogether, this has been aexperience.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 09:47:02 pm
content: Quote from: jmw on February 19, 2020, 01:02:18 amWhat the hell, no e-test?Some of your vias are incredibly close together though, I think that would be outside of JLC's spec at least.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 25, 2020, 06:35:36 am
content: Unfortunately, I have also gotten "not optimal" boards from Aisler nowThis was my 4th design with them (I have had more than 120 designs with JLCPCB until now without any glitch), this board from Aisler was just a "proof of concept" for some simple stuff. The VIAs were misaligned, they are 0.2mm/0.4mm in the design, both within Aisler's specs.All 3 board for this order did not work, there were 2 nets that were shorted together, I have of course double checked gerbers, got a clean DRC etc but did not find any explanation.So I can also conclude that no etest are done.Whats almost worse, total silence over email from them!Until this, there were reasonably fast communication, the first 2 designs there were almost instant communication. Not so much more....Luckily I can see my 4 layer enig boards at JLC being complete now, waiting for a second 4 layer board to be finished, and then they are shipped together

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2020, 07:48:33 am
content: That doesn't look like 0.2mm/0.4mm vias; it looks like the hole was too big or the annulus too small. For comparison this is what 0.2mm/0.45mm hole/pad diameter looks like:Btw for larger vias I generally use larger annulus, for example 0.3mm drill diameter => 0.7mm pad diameter; 0.5mm drill diameter => 1.0mm pad diameter; 1.0mm drill => 1.7mm pad. I really don't like seeing via holes almost breaking out of the pad.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 25, 2020, 07:53:06 am
content: Quote from: OwO on February 25, 2020, 07:48:33 amExactly, when looking at their own gerber preview for the exact same board it looks like below.Unfortunately I dont have the ability to measure the physical board, but something is clearly wrong. I could live with that if the at least would answer my mails, errors are ok and can and will happen at some point, it is HOW you handle the errors that matters to me!

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 25, 2020, 08:08:37 am
content: The diameter of the via looks good, judging by the width of the trace compared to the diameter of the via, but they drilled a bigger size than 0.2mm! Also the drill center is off. Could have worked if they drilled the holes to the correct size but with those holes... nope. That's a bummer!

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 25, 2020, 08:11:18 am
content: Quote from: thinkfat on February 25, 2020, 08:08:37 amYes, I also think the holes are wrong, and the alignment are way offThe tracks are desgined as 0.127 mm for Comparison

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2020, 06:54:36 am
content: Quote from: thinkfat on February 25, 2020, 08:08:37 amThe same just happened to me; luckily I spotted it in the web front end before placing an order. I had vias with 0.25mm drill, 0.45mm copper diameter, and they elected to "upgrade" the drill diameter to 0.35mm -- without changing the copper size.I noticed it on the "overview" page (edit: the page which summarizes the data for my uploaded design), where they stated the minimum drill size in my design as 0.35mm. But there was no active notification about the changes they made. Very annoying.Likewise, they widened the openings in the solder mask without asking (so the design no longer meets Xilinx' specs for the BGA I use), and they silently replaced all tented vias by open ones (again increasing the risk of problems under the BGA). OK, I could have known about the latter, since their specs state "no tented vias". But still, a warning message about changes made would have been in order.While Aisler's Gerber viewer is very nice indeed, they use it to push all responsibility to the customer. Essentially it's "You order what we show you in the Gerber viewer, not what you submitted to us in your design files. Better look real close, since we might have hidden some surprises for you in there."

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2020, 07:31:49 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 03, 2020, 06:54:36 amYou tried the "Blitz" service, then? Because their 2-layer "HD" PCBs have 0.2mm minimum drill size and should have met your design. The "Blitz" service is a bit of a trap. It's full of restrictions that you're not warned about when you submit the design files.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2020, 07:54:49 am
content: Quote from: thinkfat on May 03, 2020, 07:31:49 amNope, it was the "4-layer HD" variant. My 0.25mm drills were clearly within their 0.2mm design spec, which makes this so much more annoying.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2020, 08:47:26 am
content: Quote from: thinkfat on May 03, 2020, 07:31:49 amI received my first Blitz service boards earlier this week. Aisler's uploader is supposed to check that a design meets its capabilities, before offering the choice. Having been bitten often enough by PCB CAM over the last twenty years, I carefully read all that they wrote about Blitz, anyway, which in my case was enough.Or was it? I specified four unplated mounting holes on each board, and I got that, except for one hole on one board that has a neatly plated wall and a sloppy tongue, on just one side, bridging the hole wall and ground. I asked Aisler if I should document the failure for QC purposes, as it is pronounced and unlike any I have seen. I was told the problem was that I had submitted a single drill file: that I needed to submit two, one with the plated holes and one with the unplated ones.I explained why that is not how it works and that their fab will identify the unplated holes by the missing copper – which they did and acted on, with better than 91% accuracy. But now that you guys remind me, their board viewerdoes showthat all the mounting holes are unplated. It is time to fire up the microscope and send off some images.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2020, 09:13:58 am
content: Quote from: jfiresto on May 03, 2020, 08:47:26 amAnd have them remake the boards based on their rendering guarantee. To make the lesson stick.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2020, 08:30:06 pm
content: Aisler's email etiquette sucks.A couple days after I had uploaded my test design (a small 4-layer "HD" board, in which they had taken the liberty to make all via holes larger without even adjusting the copper), I received an automated follow-up email: Had I figured out how great their Gerber viewer is, how to complete the ordering process, etc.? The email was signed by Felix, one of the founders. It did nicely acknowledge that it was of course an automated email, but pointed out that "if you hit reply, I'll be right there for you".I actually did reply, to use the opportunity to let them know about my disappointing experience with the drills. (Plus the uncalled-for widening of the solder mask, and the lack of tented vias. All three combined would have virtually guaranteed that the BGA I have on that board would have been soldered with plenty of shorts.) Wrote a polite and detailed email, and expressed my hope that they would fine-tune their Gerber handling, since I would really like to order prototypes from them.The answer: Nothing, neither from Felix nor anybody else, for a week now.Instead: The next automated email. Subject: "Drills, drills, drills -- how important they are and how serioulsy we take them at Aisler".This is sad. IwantAisler to be good, since they offer a combination of pricing, features and turnaround time I can't get anywhere else in Europe. But they seriously mess with my Gerbers without even telling me, they don't reply to emails, and send me stupid spam instead.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2020, 05:00:04 pm
content: The etching of cgroen's prototype PCB looks horrible. Whatever German PCB manufacturer they're using, it's probably one in someone's mom's basement...It's a shame what the Fritzing Fab service has become. Ordered a few times from them, the quality was excellent. Seems like they switched to a cheaper manufacturer to keep a similar pricing scheme.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2020, 05:04:21 pm
content: Quote from: m98 on May 10, 2020, 05:00:04 pmTo be honest, Felix agreed that the first ones where "not optimal"!He redid the boards, and the new ones were very much perfect

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2020, 02:01:08 pm
content: A couple of days after I had posted my complaint about Aisler's lack of email response here, Felix did send a nice reply. (Not sure whether it was prompted by the post here or a coincidence.) He explained that they indeed make those changes to the drills, and stated that the Chinese manufacturers do the same without telling you.Since I had already ordered the board in question from JLCPCB, I thought this would be a good opportunity to compare the two, and ordered the same little PCB from Aisler too. Both boards have arrived now, and I have attached closeup photos of both of them. A few comments:Both manufacturers did a clean job on theetching; no problems whatsoever with the 5 mil traces, as far as I can see.Aisler has indeed made thevia drillslarger (0.25mm to 0.35mm), without enlarging the annular copper ring. The resulting annulus isverynarrow, but they seem to get away with it since the registration of drills vs. copper is excellent. JLCPCB kept the drills unchanged, and has maybe enlarged the annulus a bit (making it non-spherical to keep a safe distance from the pads). They can use the extra leeway, since the drill registration isn't quite as good. Either approach should work, I think, but it feels like Aisler is taking a high risk here, or has a lot of confidence in the precision of their drills.Aisler has also enlarged the openings in thesolder maska bit, apparently in proportion to the pad size -- it is hardly noticeable with the BGA pads, more so with some larger discrete components on the bottom. JLCPCB has shrunk the openings for the BGA pads somewhat, distorting them to cover any tracks which connect to the pad. That may be a good idea, to avoid variations in the copper area available to the BGA's balls, but is probably not critical?Aisler does not officially supporttented vias. They did cover the copper annulus of all vias with solder mask, but some of the holes are filled/covered, while some are not. For the BGA, I feel a bit more comfortable with the JLCPCB board, where all vias are closed. (But the surface is not planar, and I realize that I can't expect that.) Not sure whether it makes a practical difference though.Aisler'ssilkscreenprint is much more precise that JLCPCB's. Not very visible in the photographs, but JLCPCB's ink is thicker, with less well-defined contours. But it's clearly readable at 0.8mm character height.JLCPCB did a shabby job with thecontour milling. Some corners have strange little steps or indentations; and they apparently took some sandpaper to some of the boards (badly) to cover that up. The two corners shown here are some of the more pronounced samples, not all of them are that bad. Aisler's milling is perfect, giving the slightly rounded corners I wanted. But then you get the mouse-bites on all sides which I hadn't expected...Finally, JLCPCB does of course give youmore choice. With Aisler, green soldermask and 1.6mm material are the only options you get. Worked for me in this case.In summary: Both boards seem usable. Given the low shipping cost and the favorable price structure for small quantities, I will definitely order from Aisler again.Edit: Forgot to mention -- I like Aisler'sstencilsmuch better. JLCPCB sent one huge sheet with sharp corners (30*40cm², for a PCB that is DIP-40 sized) with combined stencils for both sides. Aisler provided two separate postcard-sized stencils with nice rounded corners, which are handy but still have enough surrounding space to fixate them and work the rake. I will definitely use the Aisler stencils. Thickness is 100µm for Aisler and 150µm for JLCPCB, by the way.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 19, 2020, 03:37:15 pm
content: Aislers confidence in their (manufacturers) drilling precision may not be entirely warranted. I've received boards from them where the holes were quite a bit off and it only worked out because my vias were generously dimensioned.Also, they should not advertise 0.2mm drilling capability when they actually can't.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 08:14:39 pm
content: Hmm -- I have ordered a couple more designs from Aisler (4-layer "HD" boards), and am still torn:The precision of the etching, silkscreen, and stencils is great.The solder mask is so-so; they widen the openings a bit more than I would like, and more than the various Chinese board houses I have used.The contour milling is disappointing: On one order, the milling was so far off on 2 of the 6 PCBs that they had milled straight into the copper -- although I had obeyed the design rules, of course, and had staid away from the edge as required. Another order had mouse bites all around each board, instead of the desired contour as proudly displayed by their online viewer. One edge of that board design had a milled feature in the contour, and the mouse bite was just in that spot,insteadof the desired feature.No response to an email complaint I sent 10 days ago.Instead, I now see that they have increased their prices significantly, by 37% if I wanted to reorder my two-week-old order again today. Well, maybe that will pay for adequate staffing to enable them to answer emails.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 07:16:47 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 26, 2020, 08:14:39 pmTheir prices may have increased or decreased depending on the board area.According totheir blog, Aisler now charge a fixed 10,40 euros plus the boards cm2-area times a multiplier. It is all there, clear as beer, on GitHub:"Want to know how we calculate our prices? Look no further! "If you are not a Ruby(?)-ist, it may be faster and safer to upload and price two different sized boards and solve for the linear coefficients.I received some HASL Blitz boards yesterday, five days after I ordered them. They show more tool strikes, but not hard enough to pierce the solder mask.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 12:23:42 pm
content: Quote from: jfiresto on June 27, 2020, 07:16:47 amNo, I don't think that is the price increase I am talking about. My most recent order was placed a few weeksafterthat May 22 blog post, and the blog post mentions that new pricing had been introduced "recently", i.e. before the blog post. And the prices for that same order are 37% higher today. The stencils play a significant part in this, they went up by 58%. I did not see any information on that price hike.As I said, I remain torn about Aisler. Their communication leaves a lot to be desired, be it via email or on the website. Why is the success rate in getting an email response less than 50%? Why isn't there a "pricing" entry on the help pages?! And where is that Wiki, by the way, which I am supposed to "check for details" according to the blog post?

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 01:14:53 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 27, 2020, 12:23:42 pmI used duckduckgo to find it.I think it commendable that Aisler have not created a slick website, to hide that they are a bit disorganized. With theirs, what you see is what you get. That said, from what I have experienced so far, I think everyone would benefit if they could improve their operation and presentation.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 04:20:43 pm
content: Quote from: jfiresto on June 27, 2020, 01:14:53 pmHmm... Duckduckgo suggestshttps://aisler.net/wiki/, which turn out to be a dead link. Fits the general theme...

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 06:53:26 am
content: I seriously wonder why you still try to cope with such a bad service instead of turning your back to them and use a different manufacturer which offers better service. Heck, even the chinese PCB houses which were long said to be a PITA in that regard offer better service than what I read here, with many times comparable quality and speed.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 08:19:18 am
content: Quote from: Ysjoelfir on July 13, 2020, 06:53:26 am(snap) And in the blink of an eye the whole COVID-19 crisis and the Chinese manufacturing blackout were wiped from the memory of the people...

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 08:22:04 am
content: Quote from: Ysjoelfir on July 13, 2020, 06:53:26 amAs mentioned a few posts above, the quality of Aisler's etching, silkscreen, and stencils is great, better than what I have seen from any of the Chinese vendors. (All referring to Aisler's HD boards; I have not used their Blitz service.) And for the board I am currently working on, Aisler's price and delivery time are better than the Chinese vendors' for small quantities -- even after the recent price hike.It is a pity that Aisler's PCB subcontractor has had issues with the contour milling -- I would like to hear from others whether that is a recurring issue or whether I just had bad luck. And it is a pity that Aisler does not do a better job responding to emails; that issue is entirely their own. I really do hope that part of the price increase goes to paying for another employee...

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 08:38:03 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on July 13, 2020, 08:22:04 amHi, I did not read the complete thread. For this reason, I apologize if I am replying to something else. I too had a problem with milling and mousebites. I discussed this with Felix and he mentioned that the standard service does not offer secondary milling. Only the primary milling. You need to use HD service for this. Additionally, Aisler officially does not support multiple PCBs per order. Mousebites are not allowed but they manufactured this for me several times without any complaints. I exchanged couple emails on this with Felix (I am a corporate user) and he mentioned they will do something about it.I am still happy with the service. I dislike the webpage.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 10:24:26 am
content: I have not had any issues with the perforated tab routing, but that is after only 3 sets of 8 boards, one set HD and two Blitz. I hope one day, soon, the website will go beta and I no longer have to puzzle how to navigate to there from here.When I used Beta Layout's PCB Pool around the turn of the millennium, I had issues with roughly every fourth order. I could believe that Aisler is at that level. If only they had Beta's fast and efficient customer service, I could stop wondering whether the really good aspects of Aisler's service are worth its glitches.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 10:41:13 am
content: Not sure whether I was clear about it in my earlier post. My issue with mousebites is that (a) I get them at all and have to clean them up myself, where the "guaranteed" preview had shown me a nice milling countour, and (b) for one of my orders, they put the mousebites in the most stupid conceivable place.I had ordered a very simple board -- nevertheless even in "HD" service, to enable the slots for the USB jack. It's meant to plug onto a DIP IC, hence its contour has the dimple on one side to indicate the correct orientation. Like so -- note the big fat milling contour as highlighted by Aisler's preview:Instead what I received was this:I can understand that maybe there is a minimum size the machines can handle, so they can't mill smaller boards to the final size. But what is the point of the "guaranteed" Gerber preview when it doesn't tell the truth there? And if they need mousebites, can't they at least place them carefully? In this case, a piece of sandpaper wasn't enough to clean this up; I had to get the file out and improvise the dimple myself. And these weren't even cheap for what they were; as mentioned I had to order them in "HD". Grmpf...

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 11:23:00 am
content: Yes, that is a bit of surprise. I am guessing a workaround would be to straighten the left edge and silkscreen dimples (on both sides?) where the routed dimple would be.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 11:26:45 am
content: It would be nice if Aisler's preview would show where they will place the tabs but they may decide that later when they optimize the panel.

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 12:54:11 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on July 13, 2020, 08:19:18 amHave you ordered something from a chinese PCB house in the last weeks? And did you pay for a shipping method that is not the cheapest, most economy snail mail based shipping which gets carried by foot from shenzen to your place? I ordered three times in the last two months, payed a reasonable price, shipping included. two times from china for a client, once for my own project from germany. The two deliveries from china were just two days slower than the delivery from germany. And Corona has been here for more than two monthsQuote from: ebastler on July 13, 2020, 08:22:04 amI never doubted the general quality, and also regarding the problems that were mentioned like tool/hit marks, misaligned stuff and manufacturing errors - mistakes can happen. But I would expect better, especially in service, from a german company. I mean, I am part time self employed, and if I would treat my customers like that, ignoring them when they have a complaint, I doubt that I would still be in business.Which is why I wonder why you guys still shove money up aislers... wallets...,support or even encourage such a behaviour while doing so, AND even defend them. I just can't understand that.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 01:02:51 pm
content: Quote from: Ysjoelfir on July 13, 2020, 12:54:11 pmWho's "defending" them? We are pointing out what they do well and what they don't.For the PCBs I currently work on, Aisler offers better quality and price, plus slightly faster delivery, than the Chinese vendors. (Although the price advantage has shrunk a lot with Aisler's new pricing.) When I need different, e.g. larger PCBs, or features Aisler does not offer, I will happily go back to a Chinese supplier.

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 01:22:28 pm
content: Isn't going against someone with arguments like "yes, thats not that good, but they do this and that very great which is why I will still use them even though I am not completely satisfied!" kind of defending them?

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 01:39:13 pm
content: Quote from: Ysjoelfir on July 13, 2020, 12:54:11 pmYes I have. I have ordered two PCBs made and assembled. This is something I cannot get from Aisler or any other local manufacturer and not cost an arm and a leg. But I will still continue ordering stuff locally, even if I could buy a comparable item from China.Quote from: Ysjoelfir on July 13, 2020, 01:22:28 pmNo.

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 01:53:37 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on July 13, 2020, 01:39:13 pmWhich is totally fine and I absolutely support that. As I wrote, for my personal projects I prefer to use local manufacturers, too. I personally would just choose an other manufacturer, if I have had or read about several problems and a bad service.QuoteI think thats a question of interpretation and the way you read sentences - as expressions can't be perfectly transported over plain text.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2020, 03:30:19 am
content: As it happens, and partly due to this thread, I just ordered the same PCB from JLCPCB and Aisler. From JLCPCB I chose to use the default cheapest shipping since it's not time sensitive, the total cost being £5.55. If I'd elected to go for fast shipping - 3 to 5 days - it would have been around £19.For Aisler the only choice was £17 for three boards (JLCPCB was, of course, for five). Ordered on the same day last week, JLCPCB shipped on Saturday and Aisler shipped Monday. However, Aisler say it will take another 5 days to turn up.Seems to me that JLCPCB are better on several counts: very cheap if that's what you want, comparable price but faster delivery if that's what you want, and you get 5 instead of 3 boards. I also like that JLCPCB give you photos of the product as shipped as proof that they've shipped something - not that important but nice all the same.Quality-wise, I've never had an issue with JLCPCB. This is my first time with Aisler and if there's the slightest issue it'll be my last - the only reason left to use them would be 'local' manufacture.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2020, 10:05:25 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 14, 2020, 03:30:19 amOuch, the five-day shipping delay is annoying. So far, all my "regular, free shipping" orders from Aisler have arrived the next day after they were shipped. And that has of course helped a lot to keep Aisler competitive on cost and delivery time.I hadn't realized that mail (from the Netherlands or Germany?) to the UK takes that much longer. If it's the same to other European countries, that would limit the region where Aisler has a competitive offering.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2020, 10:52:56 am
content: Maybe they mean 'up to five days' and it'll arrivetodaytomorrow

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 01:20:06 pm
content: They arrived today. Superficially they look fine but given this thread I had a closer lookThree boards and two showed a tool strike (or similar). Strangely, they were both around the same hole:Then, of course, there are the nibbles on three sides where the boards have been de-paneled:And a NPTH which is actually a PTH:Doesn't matter to me in this project, but if you really needed NPTH that could be an issue. For reference, the JLCPCB NPTH:Oh! Didn't I mention? The JLCPCB boards arrived today too, in the same post drop. So £5 for 5 or £17 for 3, same delivery time. Tricky. I can save another almost £2 with a VAT claim from Aisler, so that's really £5/board vs £1/board.Both sets of boards were very similar, apart from the JLCPCB having no nibbles nor even any sign that there were any. Another thing, may be minor but could be useful, is how close to the board edge the ident can go. First, Aisler:And JLCPCB, which gets much closer to the edge:Another thing of note is that the JLCPCB via holes are smaller. One is also a bit off in that photo but both sets have spot-on holes and slightly-adrift holes.

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 01:26:56 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 17, 2020, 01:20:06 pmThats basically what I meant with my questioning before - same or better quality and speed for less money - and with a better service.Could you post a closeup of the routed board edges? In the last two pics it looks like the aisler PCB is way rougher than the one from JLCPCB.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 01:42:54 pm
content: It's just the way the light catches the board edge in that photo. They are exactly the same other than the Aisler boards have the de-paneling nibble in the middle of every side - outside of that you can't tell the difference and both are dead smooth.

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 01:55:12 pm
content: thanks for clarifying

author: 0-8-15 User
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 08:58:02 pm
content: I just received my first set of PCBs from aisler.net, and the quality seems to be good as far as I can tell (see attachment):PCB Service: Beautiful Boards HDDimension: 53.21mm x 46.76mmDelivery time: Exactly 7 days (Friday to Friday)Price: 19.11 EURQuote from: ebastler on June 26, 2020, 08:14:39 pmFor me, the response time was less than an hour and the problem (accidental double order) was solved without further ado.