Camera eye candy - 3CCD 1080p 16:9 mini cameras + mystery. Latest aquisitions - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 02:42:49 pm
content: A casual search for mini CCD camera on ebay brought a surprise the other day.A technology recycler was selling some mini CCD cameras that were attached to an expensive looking and unusual precision mounting bracket. Even more unusual, the bracket carries four mini cameras and it was fully populatedI liked what I saw and read more of the description. The auction was for the precision mount, four Panasonic GP-US932A cameras, their associated controllers, all cables and power supplies. The cameras are fitted with the correct Panasonic 8mm lenses as well. As soon as I saw the controllers I knew I was going to buy the set. I know that such Panasonic remote head cameras are normally quality items as I already own some older types.More surprises followed. A quick Google search provided the cameras datasheet and manual. These little beauties are broadcast quality triple CCD 1080p 16:9 format minicamsThe controllers offer an array of outputs including HDMI and can be remote controlled. For me, these are like Christmas has come early as I love minicam technology.There is a mystery however....... take a look at the attached pictures of the quad camera bracket. It is not the usual simple affair associated with CCTV, but rather an expensive looking assembly with individual camera mount course and fine vernier adjustments in the X and Y planes. It also has a vernier skew adjustment for each camera. I have not seen anything like this sort of bracket outside of a lab.I was thinking about applications that might need four high performance 1080p colour cameras mounted facing in the same direction and possibly aligned to have co-incident views. I am thinking stereo vision as that needs careful camera alignment. Why four cameras instead of two ? close and far coincidence points for near and far objects ? All four lenses are Panasonic 3CCD 8mm models so the fields of view is the same.Does anyone have any other ideas why such a precision bracket and quad camera array would exist ? These are way too good for CCTV and the bracket is too good for that as well. Robot VisionHow much did this little bundle of visual joy cost me ? ........... £60 on a buy it nowI love it when recyclers have no clue what something is really worth.Camera datasheet is attached after pictures.Aurora

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 02:50:07 pm
content: My guess is some sort of lab measurement setup, maybe for aligning some optical stuff?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 02:58:39 pm
content: Yes, I was thinking lab or medical roles as the bracket is not designed to rough handling or dirty industrial environments. I would have expected the cameras to be protected in an industrial 'shop floor' application.Still, I can think of optical experiments that use four colour 1080p cameras in convergent alignment.When received the cameras were set at near and far coincidence points. The fact that all cables and power supplies were included is also quite rare. Often the disposal officer just chucks it all in a box and the various interconnecting parts are either misplaced or not even removed from the original installation (as in factory clear-outs).This camera array would look great as the eyes of a humanoid bi-ped robot, or on the end of an articulated robot armMuch fun to be had with these me thinks

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 03:39:20 pm
content: Perhaps they were used for motion tracking?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 03:43:45 pm
content: I have written to the seller to see if he knows which company or environment they came from. A long shot but no harm in asking. He is based in Telford and there are a lot of technology companies and labs around that part of the UK.Aurora

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 03:55:27 pm
content: Response from seller received.Believed to be from the world of medicine.I wonder if these are the sorts of cameras used on the likes of remote operating theatres where the doctor is controlling robot arms from another room and using cameras to see the 'action' ? I was already aware of the Da Vinci machines used for keyhole surgery but these cameras would be more suitable for open site invasive surgery.Video on the amazing Da Vinci machine is to be found here.....http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/robotic-prostate-surgery-keyhole-to-the-future-20131104-2wx3j.htmlAnother possibility might be radiotherapy as part of a targeting system ? They are certainly very clean, like they have spent their life protected from dust and dirt.Aurora

author: lukier
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 05:31:09 pm
content: This looks like a stereo vision head. 2 x 2 cameras provide two baselines to have good depth estimates both in the near and far range. Some humanoid robot heads have such setup for this reason.Similar system of lower quality (here 3 sensors, but also multiple baselines possible):http://www.ptgrey.com/bumblebee-xb3-1394b-stereo-vision-camera-systems-2I wonder why all these precise verniers, it shouldn't be that important, cameras just need to be rigid and the rest can be calibrated out.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 10:43:30 pm
content: Maybe used to capture wide-angle flight approach vision for training / simulation ?Only 60 quid - amazing !!!As relatively current technology - each of those camera chains would have to be worth close to 1K (or more) each !Sigh - great score!

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 10:54:52 pm
content: @SL4P,Yes I am 'over the moon' with this purchase. Would you believe that they had been offered for sale at £80 in a previous auction and failed to sell in spite of having 'HD' and 'camera' in the title block ! I was very lucky to get them.The previous auction at £80:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Set-of-4-Panasonic-GPUS932H-Cameras-4x-HD-Control-Units-w-Cables-amp-Adapters-/161667808680?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item25a426fda8&nma=true&si=Np6ioNmaPud7Jy3jWRL0RuPzraU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557The auction I purchased through at £60:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Set-of-4-Panasonic-GPUS932H-Cameras-4x-HD-Control-Units-w-Cables-amp-Adapters-/161682064607?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=Np6ioNmaPud7Jy3jWRL0RuPzraU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=ncI have always liked high quality mini cameras and compact CCTV cameras. Truth be told, I do not know what I am going to do with these. I do not have an immediate need for 1080p HD cameras except maybe for my microscopes. I just bought a couple of Olympus DP11 dedicated microscope cameras for that application though.Now to find an HDMI to SVGA converter so that I can use PC LCD displays with themThis looks promising:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1080p-HDMI-to-VGA-Cable-Video-Converter-Adapter-for-Laptop-PC-DVD-HDTV-PS3-UK-/221299234651?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item338676575bAurora

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 11:47:41 pm
content: That looks like a multi inter ocular stereo setup. The crux of those cameras (I have used them and all the competitive one as well), is the head output is analog. Very , very, very delicate analog that requires a perfect cable. The A/D conversion is done at the base station. So, every cable literally looks different and when you bend and twist the cable it can impact the look of the camera.The Fuji lenses typically have tons of chromatic aberration and limited resolving power. It is unlikely you will ever get an MTF good enough to resolve HD. Although I am not positive, is is doubtful that the sensors are 1920x1080 CCD's. Most of those cameras used lower resolution sensors and scaled the output to whatever they needed. The worlds "first" HD mini-cam from Iconix was actually an SD camera that up-converted.The thor-labs translation stages were typical for stereoscopic experiments (among a million other uses). For medical use, I saw a number of the multi-interocular setups for close up and more distant shots without having to adjust the camera.Did you get head cables?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 11:50:06 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on May 05, 2015, 10:43:30 pmThey were in the neighborhood of $8k and appear to be from around 2006-7

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 04:12:43 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 05, 2015, 11:50:06 pmYeah, that would be right. GBP 6K in 2007, now... depreciated GBP 1K+Selling for GBP 60Why don't I see those auctions!

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 10:47:12 am
content: @rxpilot,Thanks for the comments.If you take a look at the datasheet it clearly states that the lenses I have come under the 'SD' heading which confirms your thoughts on the lens. I do have a true HD lens that came with a Panasonic convertible camera thoughPanasonic state that this particular camera series is zero loss DIGITAL from the head to the controller so, unlike my other Panasonic mini remote head cameras, this looks to have addresses the sensitivities that you mention. They certainly make a point of highlighting that advantage and state that the head contains an high performance 14 bit per channel A to D converter for the purpose.Yes I have the complete system for each camera. Lens, Head unit, 4m long head cable, controller and original power supply pack.That was what surprised me as so often bits go missing during disposal. The cables are very expensive and look it. Lovely quality and super flexible. I will add some pictures.I will do some checking on the CCD chips used and their resolution but I am sure I read that it is >1000 lines optical. They are also highlighted as progressive scan that exceeds the performance of CCD's needing scan processing. I will do some digging.Thanks for all the input guys.The original price of these things is scary, but them they are specialist products and the words industrial, broadcast and medical all appear in the brochures and that usually means scary pricesI will post again later with pictures of the cables and news on the CCD chips.Aurora

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 11:08:49 am
content: This is a nice brochure with plenty of useful information on the technology used in my cameras.http://www.spectratech.gr/Web/Panasonic/pdf/GP-LM3TAP.pdfAuroraUpdate:Camera system block diagram added

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 11:31:24 am
content: The seller listed then under 'Home, Furniture and DIY' rather than with the pro video equipment in 'Business, Office & Industrial'. I won two Sony BRC H700s a few months ago for 1p. The seller listed them as 'BCR', plus they were in pieces. But I managed to rebuild one, which works fine. The other has a problem with the motor gears on the zoom, still work in progress...BTW it is good to see a eBay buyer with feed score back which makes mine look low.My thoughts were some sort of horse racing photo finish system.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 11:41:36 am
content: @Towger,I hadn't noticed the section under which they were listedI do not limit my searches to sections, hence why I spotted them.I have 'spoken' with the seller and he seems a really nice chap but cameras are not his 'thing' and he is happy with £60.Regarding your ebay win..... I have had problems on a couple of occasion now where I have won an item for the opening 99p start price and the seller has refused to ship. They just refunded my payment and said the item was worth more. On the other hand, I have won an item for 99p and sent the seller an additional payment, more appropriate to the items true value, as I felt bad for them. This is especially the case when I buy from the genuine Charity sellers. They have always been appreciative of the gestureI believe in good Karma and 'doing no harm'It is a different matter with recycling companies though as they buy in bulk and clear it through at whatever price its reaches. They are just a conduit between the original owner and me and have little interest in the true value of an item. I know a few such recyclers and have had some great bargains from them.Regarding my 3260 feedback..... its both embarrassing and more than a little worrying! Especially when you hear that I am not a trader or 'wheeler dealer'I have been on ebay since 2001(?) so that is 14 years of mostly buying. I tend to 'shop the world' for exotic and interesting electronics related items. I have just retired though, so limited income will curb my buying habits for sureWell I suppose that it is only fair that I give others a chance to buy thermal cameras etc as I currently snap up most of the bargains in that areaAurora

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 02:10:09 pm
content: Pictures of the nice cables that connect the head units to the processor unit.And the OEM power supplies.Aurora

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 02:17:13 pm
content: And a mystery cable set that came with the camera. It looks like a DVI to custom cable complete with audio line. Nice quality. DVI to specialist monitors or video recorders ?The Monoprice unit is just a DVI to 15 pin VGA splitter and a COTS product.http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=101&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011304&p_id=2519&seq=1&format=2Aurora

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 02:29:05 pm
content: That is nearly identical in design to a Field Sequential Stereo setup I constructed in the US for filming a lab experiment 5 years ago. The key here is the mix of goniometer stages and XY mirror mounts, used for getting the overlap just right. If its not "just right" the viewer gets severe headaches during playback analysis.Field Sequential was easy, obtain the field pulse using a LM1881 and run the video thru an analog switch. One camera shoots the odd lines, the other the even lines. A third camera was used, masked off to black, to generate the sync pulses for all the slave cameras.Even more fun is to take the sync pulse, run it thru a monostable, and generate a pulse to sync a strobe or LED for stop motion stereo.LCD goggles that go between a VGA monitor and the video card are cheap.My bet is with a little work and a small investment, you can have a lot of fun with that setup.Later we used a macro script wrote in "Scion Image" and later "Image J" freeware to make Stereogram prints by stripping the line data, doing line doubling on the results, and scaling accordingly.Today you could grab the video with a USB dongle for $35 USD.As those are color, you'd need "burst" sync as well. We used black and white, which is a tad simpler.Steve

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 03:07:19 pm
content: For those interested in these types of mini/micro cameras, I include pictures of another set that I own. It uses the colour Toshiba M50H camera types and a special very thin tubular camera, the ID of which I forget.I have similar types of Panasonic and Toshiba cameras for fixed and mobile applications.Aurora

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 03:58:09 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on May 06, 2015, 11:31:24 amJeez, I thought I was doing well as a buyer.Still, I do have my first name as my eBay id. Not many people can claim that.(been on eBay since before it even had user IDs)

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 04:04:16 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on May 06, 2015, 10:47:12 amThat is a very big improvement making these little cameras much more useful.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 04:35:51 pm
content: @rx8pilot,Yes I was pleased to see the use of a lossless connectivity between head and processing unit. As you say, a great improvement over other remote head cameras that I have used, such as the Toshiba M80H head unit shown in my previous post..Interestingly I cannot find a specific xxxx pixel by xxxx pixel specification for the CCD chips used in these cameras. Panasonic make many references to theCCDbeing "True HD" rather than field interpolated. That still does not tell us the true optical resolution though.An interesting omission. I shall have to dig deeperAurora

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 04:51:00 pm
content: Even if the CCD is 'True HD' which would be something >= 1280x720 - the biggest limitation will be the C-mount lenses. So far, no one has made any good ones. There are a few from Fujinon in the HAF series that were decent. I used them on Iconix, Toshiba, and Indiecam cameras. They still struggle with MTF, corner sharpness, and chromatic aberrations. At a cost of $1500 each, I was hoping for better.Here is an action photo.....shooting 360 degrees for visual effects.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 05:40:06 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on May 06, 2015, 03:07:19 pmAre those lenses to fit on that camera? Looking at the picture it's almost as if it is not the same mount, but then again I have little knowledge of mounts.If they fit, why would they do the effort to make the camera so much thinner than the lenses?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 05:58:55 pm
content: @PA0PBZNope, there are three complete cameras with lenses fitted in that pictureThe two on the left have an umbilical cable that connects at the rear. The thin camera on the right is smaller than the connector diameter so its connector sits at the end of a fixed thin cable.When I bought this set, the seller did not know that the unit on the right was a camera at all. He listed it as a 2 camera head set. From memory the whole kit including aluminium transit case cost me £100 deliveredAurora

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 06:08:42 pm
content: Thanks for clarifying that for me. I knew something didn't make sense in the way I looked at it, but it was not immediately clear what it was. Now it makes sense. (And now I want to have one, which makes no sense at all)Paul

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 06:12:29 pm
content: Some more pictures of the Toshiba cameras to show their construction (body+lens+cable).I just love the engineering that goes into these little 'special purpose' cameras.Aurora

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 06:18:05 pm
content: @rx8pilot.Nice picture you postedAurora

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 08:31:17 pm
content: Internal pics of the cameras and control boxes....?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 08:52:22 pm
content: @Mike,I think I can sort that for you, at least to a point where I do not ruin the optical blockWatch this space.Aurora

author: dom0
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 10:46:06 pm
content: The OEM supply looks like the standard issue Toshiba notebook supplies. Made by JRC, 15 V/4 A? Those are quite high quality supplies.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2015, 01:48:37 pm
content: Ok, for your delight and delectation, I present some internal pictures of the HD cameras processor unit and camera head.I should state that my disassembly was limited by the fact that I have no wish to damage the camera or introduce dust into the optical path. I may wish to sell these on after allI found out that the camera head is available without its case and is designed to be deployed in OEM applications. As such it has sealed optics and the chassis is modular. No risk of damage by removing its case providing the chassis modules are left alone and not disassembled.Pictures of the processor unit first, then camera in a separate post. The three channels for the triple CCD image data are obvious throughout the design.EnjoyAurora

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2015, 01:53:33 pm
content: Now the 3 CCD camera head with its three Analogue Devices ADC's etcNote the modular design that may be deployed in OEM designs and the sealed optical path around the CCD's and image splitter+ filter prism.Aurora