First PCB - HASL smeared on one board - design error or manufacturing defect? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jameswilddev
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2021, 01:06:36 pm
content: Hello! I've just received the first PCB I designed myself, from JLCPCB. Nothing fancy, just the defaults - 1.6mm thick, 2 layer, green, HASL, etc. All through hole and kept simple (no tight traces or anything)They look great, and I've certainly made mental notes of some things I'll change for my next design (maybe larger pads for easier soldering), but one of the boards has a defect; the HASL is smeared about 2mm to the right down the right hand side.Of course I don't expect 100% success for $2 + shipping, and I factored that in when selecting quantity. But when I've seen other people get bad boards there's usually a big cross on it. Does this mean that it might actually be a design error on my part? I had a look for examples of HASL being smeared online but couldn't find anything.Thank you.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2021, 01:14:15 pm
content: It's a manufacturing defect, nothing to do with design. Probably too little of flux was applied on the board. You can easily fix it though. Other boards seem to have solder smeared on the edges.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2021, 01:25:22 pm
content: Seriously how these got shipped by them is.....

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2021, 02:39:03 pm
content: Quote from: 48X24X48X on February 02, 2021, 01:25:22 pmYes, seriously, how can one make pcbs for just $2, or even those $25 shipping included?Try for yourself, with same price, then come back and bitch about a few specs of solder, that can be easily cleaned.//I am not defending JLCPCB practices, pricing, behavior, quality or whatever. I just am quite fed up with these random comments full of hate and underappreciation of what we have available for extremely low prices. If that much you are after the highest quality, why are you ordering the cheap stuff? Go and order with your local manufacturer and pay $250 for the same 5 boards.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2021, 02:43:19 pm
content: It's not about the $2 price tag. It's an ISO certified company, every process follows a certain rule. A $2 customer will eventually brings bigger order to them. For me, it is just a marketing strategy but not wrong at all. But, when you offer your service to people, do it properly regardless of the price.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2021, 02:49:40 pm
content: ISO certified probably as much as myself or yourself. I would not rely of any such information in any way.Just appreciate that the Chinese guys are offering us stupid westernians their cheap services. They could easily leave them for themselves. You should just accept that such cheap services may have obvious or less obvious limitations.

author: pisoiu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2021, 03:48:31 pm
content: Quote from: jameswilddev on February 02, 2021, 01:06:36 pmPutting cross on boards implies some form of testing. At least visual, if not automated. Perhaps this is not available at a $2 price tag.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2021, 08:34:38 pm
content: Quote from: pisoiu on February 02, 2021, 03:48:31 pmJLC claim to be doing 100% flying probe test on prototypes.I'm surprised this defect got through - we order thousands of boards from them and issues are extremely rare.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2021, 09:15:44 pm
content: Quote from: Mangozac on February 02, 2021, 08:34:38 pmI agree. $2 or $20,000 order, this should not have passed. I seriously doubt their QA processes know the price tag of the order.

author: jameswilddev
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2021, 09:34:18 pm
content: The good news is, they all work! Applied some heat and the excess solder just rolled off like you said. Thanks guys, I think I just saw bridged pads on my first design and panicked a bit.One of the AVRs isn't happy running at 28.6363MHz and resets a lot (it's a requirement of Arduinocade to overclock so far to generate NTSC composite video - playing around with my own engine which runs at half that clock but with halved color depth and vertical resolution). Replaced it with another AVR which seems to work fine.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2021, 11:51:53 am
content: //Try increasing the supply voltage slightly, like instead of 5.0V use 5.6V or something closer to the absolute maximum limit. That may help to force it work faster.//

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2021, 01:49:58 pm
content: Quote from: 48X24X48X on February 02, 2021, 02:43:19 pmI can write an ISO process that says I smear wombat faeces across every 50th board, I've only failed ISO compliance if I don't do that.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 10:48:26 pm
content: Quote from: Mangozac on February 02, 2021, 08:34:38 pmI wonder if perhaps those pins are unconnected, in which case they wouldn't be tested? I can't think of any other way...

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2021, 11:14:28 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on February 03, 2021, 01:49:58 pmYes, ISO 9001 basically has more to do with continuous improvement and documenting everything, not with actual quality. It's a toilet paper for most companies, something that they gota have. While the underlying principles are great.If you want quality for your product, it has to beIPC-2222IPC-A-600 for PCBs, and IPC-610 for PCBAs.With the strict agreement, that non-conforming boards will be shipped back to repairs at the expense of the assembly house, together with a late delivery fee.

author: GerardG
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2021, 08:17:22 am
content: Hello @NANDBlog just a short comment to your messageI think you mentioned the wrong IPC.The 2222 is for designing the board.=>IPC-2222 establishes the specific requirements for the designThe board manufacturer will us the IPC-6010 series. For the specifications on quality.=>IPC-6012E. Qualification and. Performance Specification for Rigid Printed BoardsAnd use the IPC-A-600 for checking the boards.=>IPC-A-600 Acceptability of Printed Boards (picture book like the IPC-A-610)@jameswilddevTry to find yourself a copy of the IPC-A-600. This will exactly show what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

author: Daixiwen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2021, 09:29:21 am
content: Quote from: CJay on February 03, 2021, 01:49:58 pmNo, you will only fail ISO compliance if you don't write a non-conformance report and come out with a plan explaining how you will ensure the process is properly applied in the future.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2021, 09:54:23 am
content: Quote from: GerardG on February 11, 2021, 08:17:22 amYou are absolutely right, thanks.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2021, 11:19:43 am
content: Quote from: Daixiwen on February 11, 2021, 09:29:21 amTrue, yes, I over simplified the process.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2021, 11:38:48 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on February 11, 2021, 12:57:12 amIt seems that this is indicated as being performed for 2-layer boards. How do you know they don't do 100% verification?

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2021, 11:41:11 am
content: Quote from: jameswilddev on February 02, 2021, 09:34:18 pmWow, Pacman! Are you going to post the schematic and firmware?

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2021, 07:20:55 pm
content: Quote from: 48X24X48X on February 02, 2021, 01:25:22 pmYeah, that's clearly crap.

author: jameswilddev
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2021, 10:32:32 pm
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on February 11, 2021, 11:41:11 amIt's a derivative of the Arduinocade project:https://github.com/rossumur/ArduinocadeSchematic/PCB layout for this one at:https://github.com/neomura/atmega328p-cartridgeNote that the version up on there is designed for being cut out of metallic tape on a vinyl cutter, it's not optimal for traditional etching.

author: Daixiwen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2021, 08:24:57 am
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on February 11, 2021, 11:38:48 amYes, they say they do a full test at no extra cost:https://jlcpcb.com//quote/pcbOrderFaq/Flying%20probe%20test.It's not very likely but is it possible they do the flying probes test before the HASL finish?

author: jameswilddev
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2021, 08:37:02 am
content: Quote from: Daixiwen on February 12, 2021, 08:24:57 amIt looks like the HASL comes first if this factory tour is anything to go by:https://youtu.be/ljOoGyCso8s?t=1235https://youtu.be/ljOoGyCso8s?t=1390

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2021, 10:35:14 pm
content: Hence my speculation that perhaps it passed testing because those pads weren't connected to anywhere else on the board, so nothing to test.

author: JLCPCB Official
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2021, 07:52:30 am
content: Quote from: jameswilddev on February 02, 2021, 01:06:36 pmHello everyone,JLCPCB will sincerely accept any quality complaint. As we know no factory can achieve perfect production, we never deny it as well. For the quality problem please contact lilyyang@jlcpcb.com for a solution or claim.JLCPCB's manufacturing process has passed the following certifications.We have adopted strict quality control and management to reduce the possibility of errors, including Raw Materials Guarantee, Advanced equipment, Multiple Testing Before Shipping (≥2 layers will always be 100% tested with a flying probe), Strict Management. JLC’s quality complaint rate orders around 0.23%.It is not a marketing strategy but an explanation for our manufacturing results.We want to find a solution that is satisfactory to both parties, so we adopt a compensation system for losses caused by quality problems. Quality is the life of a product, and it is also the primary production standard for JLCPCB because this is an important factor that can maintain JLCPCB competitiveness. Thank you for your valuable comments, we will listen carefully.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 11:54:49 am
content: Quote from: JLCPCB Official on February 16, 2021, 07:52:30 amMay we ask, what quality standards you follow?On the quality page on your website, there is a list of tests, and certification, but nothing concrete.Just doing a test means nothing. What are the pass/fail criteria for the tests? Do you follow any standards for that?

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 01:23:23 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 22, 2021, 11:54:49 amDamn imagine if those insanely freak and costly international associations qc standards would be implemented... they are this world's pcb printer meaning we'd have our pcbs shipped 145+ days after ordering :/ As long as the test probe touch a few and finds both end signals I'm cool with that for that price.In fact, I would appreciate if everybody could select "Not Test" on that Flying Probe Test option, just so I can get my PCB shipped 24hrs after ordering instead of 48. Thank you!

author: TomS_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 08:08:43 am
content: Quote from: Daixiwen on February 12, 2021, 08:24:57 amOn my most recent order I can see tiny pin pricks on the SMD component pads, so I think it happens after HASL.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 09:18:49 am
content: Quote from: Mecanix on February 22, 2021, 01:23:23 pmThere are companies in europe that do the testing, and they offer 2 days service. 3 days for having your boards.And no, you wouldn't be cool, if an internal layer would be broken on a board which was very expensive to make.

author: JLCPCB Official
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 01:33:18 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 22, 2021, 11:54:49 amWe follow IPC-A-600J industry standard in all our PCB manufacturing stages which covers the Automated Optical Inspection machines based on full board inspection with a defined magnification for the used camera-based machines, following some customer requirements the defined magnification changes to increase the inspection precision. The spots and traces connection are fully tested by the flying probes machines to match the requirements of the IPC-A-600J standard which is followed by us.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 04:19:56 pm
content: Quote from: JLCPCB Official on March 04, 2021, 01:33:18 amThank you for the reply.It's good to see that you follow the latest and most widely accepted standard.Do you use class 2 or class 3 for determining, if something is a failure?

author: JLCPCB Official
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 01:52:09 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 04, 2021, 04:19:56 pmWe use Class 2.Only by doing a good job in the quality inspection can customers trust us for large and small batch production. Thank you for your question and trust, so that we have the opportunity to discuss.

author: MIS42N
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 10:36:15 am
content: I got my first boards back from JLCPCB yesterday and they are just what I asked for. Unfortunately, they weren't what IthoughtI asked for. What fun it is is to be a newby all over again.I downloaded KiCad 30th January so it's been an intense learning curve, never used a PCB designer or made a board before. Just creating a board for a circuit I'd already prototyped. I only wanted one side with through hole components so designed the bottom layer thinking I was looking at the bottom layer from the bottom. Well - no. I am looking at the bottom layer from the top. Live and learn.Fortunately, KiCad had the footprints right and the only stuff up was a connector with the pins around the wrong way. Fortunately there's no orientation on the connector so the plug goes in the wrong way and it works. Well, one end works and I'll make the other end tomorrow.It is a "GPS module extender" - a GPS module generates 9600 baud NMEA messages and 1ppS. It plugs into a board with a dual differential line driver that sends the data to an RJ45 socket then via CAT something (5?) cable to the receiver with another RJ45 socket and a dual line receiver then to the target board. The GPS module and driver are powered through otherwise unused pairs in the cable. The prototype worked well but hand wiring the RJ45 sockets was excruciating. The PCB makes it so simple. Looking forward to the next challenge.