UL Certification on Wiring? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2015, 06:55:33 am
content: I am exploring the options of having some custom made wiring made, from China of course, too expensive here in the states.My question is, my product operates on 6volts and only about 50mA. Would anyone know if I would be required to have any certification (UL or other) on the wire before I can sell the product in the states? This product will never go to a retail market, like in a Best Buy store, but rather sold online to a very select crowd of hobbyist machine builders.All these manufactures on Alibaba is saying they can manufacture the wiring to my specs, BUT, they do not have UL certification. Even though my specs (copied from another manufacture who does have UL certification on their wire) is identical to a similar wire that meets my requirements. I would purchase that wire, but it is about 30 times more expensive than the quotes I am getting on Alibaba, and, the manufactures on Alibaba will allow me to change the colors of the conductors and also print anything I want on the cable itself.example, the wire is about $2.54 per foot, Alibaba has it for about $0.34 per foot. Big difference. Before I place a huge order, I would, of course, be getting a sample first to test, I'm not entirely stupid, just on the weekends.Thanks in advance for your input.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2015, 07:28:28 am
content: I'm not aware of any legal requirement for wiring to be UL marked. If, however, you're going to try and get your finished product UL marked, then it may save some testing (== time and money) if the wire is already certified.I must admit, my knowledge of the safety testing requirements that are specific to the US is rather old now. IIRC it certainly used to be the case that only FCC (EMC) testing was legally required, and in safety terms you can sell what you like provided you're prepared to be sued if your kit hurts somebody.If anyone has more up-to-date information, I'm interested to hear from you too.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2015, 07:41:26 am
content: That's kinda what I've been reading as well. They test the end-product, which means they test everything, including the wire. So, my thinking is, why pay for UL tested wire, if they test for it anyway?However, I've also been reading that it will be easier to get approval (if I go that route) if all the components, including wire, is already UL certified.This product does not warrant the $10k + money involved in getting UL certification. I understand it's a liability issue, but it is not plugged into mains. The end-user, or customer or whatever, will need to supply his own power source to produce the 7-24 dc volts needed, i.e. Walwart.Since the circuit operates on low voltage, i.e. 5.35 volts out of the voltage regulator on the board and max of maybe 500mA, I can't see it being dangerous at all. I know the liability issue still exists however. But the way the circuit is designed, if it goes bad, or partially disconnects, it shuts the machine down, stopping any potential hazards.Anyway, I can't afford to pay $10k + to send it to get it tested, as I probably won't even sell close to that much, it would be nice, but right now I don't think there is a big enough market. I am making one for my own personal use, and figured I'd sell a few to offset the costs of developing it, which for me has been pretty steep, but a learning process.Mostly what I was reading is the concern is when developing a product that operates or plugs directly into the mains of your house or shop. Since this plugs in via an already UL certified 'WalWart', do I really have too much to worry about?

author: K3mHtH
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2015, 07:55:04 am
content: Quote from: Falcon69 on January 05, 2015, 06:55:33 am.. then get them to print "UL CERTIFIED". DoneI'm half joking of course, but that's probably how most of the cheap stuff we get from China is "certified".

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2015, 08:01:31 am
content: haha, true, but if i request them to print that on there, and it isn't certified and something does happen, other then the liability issue i may be faced with, I will be faced with criminal charges for using a name on my product that was not authorized, i.e. actual certification i payed for. I had just read that printing UL, CE, CSA, or whatever on my device was a big nono unless it did pass the testing and I was granted the authority to do so.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2015, 08:06:02 am
content: I was just looking at the UL website.I think my product would fail the test no matter what. The reason.....my product would NOT be encased in anything to protect the circuit from a person touching it. It will only be protected and placed into a 'control box' once the end-user receives it and installs it.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2015, 08:33:47 am
content: FYII just went to my storage room and pulled out the Break-out-board, Smoothstepper, and spindle speed controller (products made by two different companies) that I purchased to use on my own personal machine, along with the board I made, and nowhere on these products is there a UL, CE, CSA, etc., printed on them. Maybe I am sweatin this too much.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2015, 09:10:17 am
content: There is no way that wire operating at such a low voltage or current would have any approval requirements, or have any bearing on a whole-product approval.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2015, 10:33:00 am
content: You sure about that Mike? I've certainly had UL ask me about plastic connectors before, which carry no significant current but which nevertheless are perceived as a fire hazard because they might support combustion in the event that a fire started elsewhere.I can see wire insulation coming under the same heading; not likely to necessary start a fire, but could allow one to continue burning.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2015, 10:35:38 am
content: Quote from: Falcon69 on January 05, 2015, 07:41:26 amIf the wire is already a UL Recognised Component ('UR' mark), then they're generally happy to accept the test certificate at face value. If it's not, then they may want to carry out flammability testing on the wire, which is more costly and time consuming.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2015, 05:09:25 pm
content: I have requested that the wire be made to be oil, chemical, and fire resistant. So I don't see it any problem passing any tests if it comes to that, as long as they manufacture the wire to my specification.Here's what I've asked them to do.....Continuous Flex Cable (for automation machines)Conductor: 28AWG Stranded, 7/364 conductor: Red, Black, White, GreenTwists: Red & Black 8 twists/foot (min), White & Green 12 twists/foot (min)Core Wrap: Nonwoven Polyester Tape, 25% Overlap (min)Drain Wire: 28AWG 7/36Shielding: Foil (facing out), Braid (85% min)Jacket: PVC, Black ColorJacket Separator: Tissue Tape, 25% overlap (min)Outer Diameter: 5.0mm (max)Resistance: Oil, Solvent, Chemical, & FirePrint: 4C/28AWG, 105c 300V, Company Logo and website address, per foot (for measuring)Approval: UL, CE, ROHS, 105c 300V (min)Flex Cycles: Rated for 14 million cycles (min)

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2015, 05:22:20 pm
content: Hopefully in that spec you said it has to be pure annealed copper, electrolytically refined, not remelted scrap. otherwise they might be tempted to use copper coated aluminium..... Or copper coated steel.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2015, 05:24:21 pm
content: Thanks Sean, I will update that

author: steve_w
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2015, 05:17:17 am
content: Falcon,FWIW After you update your spec, they will probably sell you whats in stock, that is closest to your updated specification.Am I too cynical?regardsSteve W

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2015, 05:20:24 am
content: Then I file a complaint with Alibaba and it gets sent back to them. I am only going to buy from members that have a 3+ year gold thingy. I am going to require a small quantity first to make sure it is what I ordered.