My propane regulator was stuck frozen this morning - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Back2Volts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2019, 06:38:26 pm
content: I got up at six and noticed the house colder than normal. The cold hand rails on the stairs really called my attention. The house thermostat said 54F. Went to the furnace in the basement and it was unsuccessfully trying to fire up every couple of minutes. Noticed that the water heater had shut down.I placed a few electric heaters around the house to at least hold the temperature.The temp outside was -31F. I wondered if it was reaching the propane boiling point. I googled it and found it is -40F, so close but not there yet.I wondered if we had run out of propane. I layered up with clothes to go out. By the time I got to the tank, my glasses were frosted from my breathing under the face mask. Went back to get my wife's phone and out again to take a picture of the gauge. The tank is half full.We called for furnace service. The guy checked the system and finally fixed it by banging the two outdoors pressure regulators. They were stuck frozen. So... back in business!This is central Minnesota. They say the in some areas of Minnesota, this last night, the wind chill touched -70F. It was very windy. This is definitely the coldest I have seen it in the ten years I have been here.For those with brains with metric tendencies, like I used to, -31F is -35C. ( -40F=-40C )

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 02:00:54 am
content: As the compress air in the tank expands and turn itself from liquid into gas, it will absorb heat in the process. The liquid is being cool further by your using it. When ambient is already at -31F and -40F is where it stays liquid, your margin is getting very narrow. If the expectation is that it may get just a few degrees lower during this cold snap, you should think about some ways of keeping the tanks a bit warmer - particularly if the propane supply is life-sustaining.We are having a heck of a cold snap. Good luck there. Stay warm and safe...

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 02:17:37 am
content: If it's any consolation I felt a bit cold this morning when I walked out into the lounge room. We left the air conditioner on over night to keep the bedrooms cool from the relentless heat we are having here

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 02:33:09 am
content: A company I used to work for many years ago had its headquarters in Minneapolis. I had to go there for training once. It was in June and there were still piles of snow in the parking lot.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 02:33:35 am
content: What are the propane costs like in your area? Cryptocurrency mining, in some cases, can end up with a lower net cost than natural gas, so I'd imagine it wouldn't be hard at all to outdo propane for space heating.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 03:08:05 am
content: I wish I was there almost, that sounds like an incredible experience to see how cold it can actually get. Lowest I've ever seen was around -20F, which was an interesting experience. Breezeway floor was definitely stingy on the feet that day.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 09:25:17 am
content: I thought it was cold this morning at -5°C, the coldest night of the winter so far. The coldest I've ever recorded where I live was -12°C in December 2010.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 09:31:30 am
content: You should see the headlines lineup athttps://www.iceagenow.info/Coincidence: my recently bought HP 8594e spectrum analyzer came from Burnsville, Minnesota. Just a few days ago. So i sort of rescued it.

author: timgiles
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 09:56:00 am
content: Firstly to all the US peeps who are having temperatures 20-40oF lower than normal - keep safe and warm as best you can.Temperature is very dependant on the country and amount of humidity in the air. I know having moved 10 years ago to Sweden from the UK, that minus a few degrees in the UK can feel bitterly cold. Similar in Sweden now, I hate it when it is between 0 and -7 or 8oC - but colder than that, I can pop out most times in a short sleeved t shirt when running to the laundry house (30-40m) and dont suffer any ill effects. Once it gets down to -25oC, it starts to feel like you dont want to hang around as the temperature difference is pulling the heat energy out of you at a rate.Hope the government both local and national are helping the people in the US. It feels watching from Europe that too often the politicians are back biting each other rather than helping those that elected them.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 12:34:58 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 31, 2019, 09:31:30 amStrange how they fail to mention the mild and even warm conditions in the western states.This is all expected of course. A weak La Niña, an easterly quasi biannual oscillation, at the end of last year and the solar cycle is close to minimum, all load the dice in favour of colder whether for eastern North America and Europe. Of course the effect on global temperatures of the solar cycle is minimal. La Niña makes some difference, but 2018 was still a warm year globally, regardless.So far winter hasn't been that cold where I live. December and the first half of January were mild. It's been a bit colder than average, over the last couple of weeks, but the forecast for next week is for it to turn milder again. The long range models still predict very cold weather in a few weeks time but they've saying that since the Autumn and so far extreme cold hasn't materialised. Perhaps late winter/early spring will be extremely cold, like last year?The sun has come out, it's above freezing and the ice thawing.

author: Back2Volts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 01:51:51 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 31, 2019, 09:38:52 amWell, I can say what I was wearing this past Monday when I went out for an hour to run the snow blower. It must have been -20C to -25C. Sunny but enough wind to fly away the snow stream from the blower. These where my clothes: normal underwear plus long johns; flannel shirt and jeans; nylon padded overalls with have double layer bottoms so the inner, snapped layer goes inside the boots and the padded one outside; white socks and tall snow boots; wool head/face cover with eyes/nose opening; heavy furred hat that covers forehead, back and ears; heavy furred jacket with large hood on; two pairs of thin wool gloves and 18" long leather/fur closed mittens (snow blower has heated handles).After the hour working outside, I was fine, except my feet where too cold and hurt a bit. I should have used wool socks. My wife was laughing when I peeled off all the layers

author: Back2Volts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 02:20:19 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on January 31, 2019, 02:00:54 amThese temperatures this low are unusual in central Minnesota. I heard last time they saw something like this was in 1996. The tank is rather large and exposed, so the evaporation effect will only kick in much closer to -40C, more so when there are 30mph wind forcing equalization ot temperature. That said, I assume in northern Minnesota and up in Canada, must have the propane tanks underground.Our propane backup is portable electric space heaters. I have four 1.5KW, which should keep the house livable.The real danger is to loose electric power. The neighborhood distribution is underground, but a line can fail somewhere else. Without power the furnace is out. Over time, on and off, we have thought about installing a backup generator and also about the possibility of geothermal heating/cooling. It is becoming more common around here. Living as I do by a lake, it would be allowed to feed the system with well water and send the return water to a drain field, which will eventually end in the lake. If I was to live long time in this house, I would do it...

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 06:09:56 pm
content: Quote from: Back2Volts on January 31, 2019, 02:20:19 pmIs it -40F or -40C? You had -40F in your original post.Either way, as long as the static temperature is above the condensation temperature at by a few degrees, you are in good shape. The pressure would be low but at least it would work. The lower wind-chill temperature of -70F actually helps rather than hurt in the case of propane thank. The wind make warm things cool quicker, but it makes cooler-than-ambient things warms quicker. The propane tank looses heat (got colder) as the propane expands, so equalizing it quicker helps as long as it is above the temperature where it stays liquid.I too am worry about the electrical supply - I am in a rural area in NJ (well recently was rural, now it is an area getting packed but still with a rural infrastructure), we have exposed power lines instead of underground power lines... Our gas supply is good, but without electrical power for the heating system's blower, the heating system wont work.Well, good luck to all affected by this cold snap. It is dangerous. I am sure there will be some deaths like the many similar cold snaps before, but hopefully this time is an exception that no one dies...

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 06:42:19 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on January 31, 2019, 06:09:56 pmYou don't have a smiley, so I don't know if you are serious or not?I will give the benefit of the doubt and assume you are making a funny

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 06:56:12 pm
content: It's been in the single digits (F) here in the mid-Atlantic US, which isn't unheard of here, but the sudden onset has been rough. I don't mind cold when there's time to adjust, but we've had a mostly mild to unseasonably warm winter with occasional bouts of bitter cold, which has been no fun.Quote from: TerraHertz on January 31, 2019, 09:31:30 amFun fact: The current cold weather in North America is associated with the northern polar vortex, which is a large mass of cold air that normally remains relatively captive at high latitudes. But the current intrusion of extremely cold air into the central US is actually associated with aweakenedpolar vortex, which allows masses of cold air to spread out and move into lower latitudes. Why is the polar vortex currently weak? Well, while research is ongoing, there's good evidence to suggest that a lot of it has to do with declines in Arctic sea ice and changes in evapotranspiration patterns resulting from--you guessed it--global warming! In other words, as the global temperature increases, established global weather patterns can be disrupted such that, even though the global average temperature is increasing (and yes, it IS increasing according to every reliable measure we have), certain parts of the world may experience more frequent bouts of severe cold as a result of shifts in weather patterns.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 07:16:27 pm
content: -35C is common during Canadian winters, I'm kinda used to it. It can be real nightmare.But the past years the Jet Stream polar vortex is the worst part, it is either over the UK or Canada, and it's the sudden drop in temps with high winds, and record setting low temps. Just fast, brutal cold comes in. It's hardest on the homeless, elderly and mentally ill.I fix a lot of furnaces too, clean the igniter/flame rod or just a reboot after condensate drys off. Or a frozen pressure switch.Propane phase-change from liquid to gas needs heat energy, so the regulator can get below the freezing point. Tank pressure is pretty much zero at -40.Stress on the grid for electricity is also terrible. I worked in a coal-fired plant and every generating station was maxxed out when it gets that cold. Equipment runs cooler so you don't get troubles but there is no extra capacity if a unit trips.Most problems are with cars - not enought antifreeze, weak batteries.Starting a cold car, if an ECU sees the gas pedal is floored at key-on, it will shut off the fuel injectors.You may need to do this because a cold engine is getting tons of fuel sprayed in, and it will flood in seconds (a few cranks) if it doesn't fire and start. You have around 3-4 seconds to figure it out, or it's call a tow truck and get the car inside a heated garage.If you think the engine is flooded, put the gas pedal to the floor and crank until it starts running, and then foot off the gas pedal FAST so it doesn't overrev.

author: Back2Volts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 07:18:30 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on January 31, 2019, 06:42:19 pmJust to clarify the funniness, -40 happens to be the same in both scales.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 11:40:58 pm
content: Quote from: ajb on January 31, 2019, 06:56:12 pmI'm not convinced it's that strongly linked to climate change. Although there's some evidence, I think it's more likely just weather.What do you mean by polar vortex? Are you referring to the stratospheric polar night vortex or the tropospheric jet-stream?I assume you're talking about the jet-stream. Yes there's some evidence that it'll weaken and become more wavy. It's driven by the temperature difference between the cold air over the pole and warmer mid-latitudes and the temperate difference will lessen, if the pole warms more than the rest of the world, as the models predict.A more wavy jet-stream should mean it's more likely there will be cold intrusions into the mid-latitudes and warm intrusions into the pole, right? Well that might be true but it's not that simple. As the cold pool of air over the Arctic shrinks, the jet-stream will move further north, so the cold air is less cold and should be less likely to go as far south.As far as the cold weather in the eastern US this week is concerned. It's due to the blocking high over the Pacific, dragging up warm air over the western stats, right up into the pole and displacing cold air, which moves south over the eastern states. This weather patten is that unusual, but is very extreme at the moment.As far as where I live is concerned, it's properly snowed for the first time this winter last night and this morning, but melted fairly quickly.. The forecast for next week is much milder.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 12:03:33 am
content: Quote from: IanB on January 31, 2019, 06:42:19 pmWhen I saw -40C where all the other times F's were used, I was wondering if there was other places where F was used when C was intended.I actually totally forgot -40C=-40F!!! Reading this, I had to do the math to convince myself... Man, I must be getting old a lot faster than I think...

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 12:10:54 am
content: polar vortex is the general point(s) around which the winds that normally circle around the Earth rotate around. The North Pole for wind. The problem is, the Arctic Ocean has been warmer than usual so the wind and pressure vortex that usually lives at the North Pole sems to occasionally be instead dividing up into more regional vortices. for example, one over northern Canada and one over Eurasia (typically Russia), but its unstable because there are more than one, plus those areas are quite a long distance south of where the North Pole is, when its at the north pole its stable, but when it divides into more the result is instability, and the weather extremes, both cold and warm become larger.Seehttps://scijinks.gov/polar-vortex/

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 06:00:52 am
content: They say it's split into three vortices and going to stay put for a long time. There's no high pressure systems to push it around or move it.pic from NASAhttps://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144489/arctic-weather-plunges-into-north-america

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 09:54:55 am
content: Ah the sudden stratospheric warming and the confusion between the polar night vortex and jet-stream persists. They are two different phenomena. The stratospheric polar night jet only exists in winter, when it's dark over the pole. In the spring, the polar stratosphere warms and the jet changes from westerly to easterly. The reverse happens in Autumn, when it changes from easterly to westerly.Earlier on this year we had a sudden stratospheric warming, which did split the polar vortex three ways, but it didn't affect the weather patten back then. It takes time for it to propagate down to the troposphere and affect the weather, which is probably what's just happened recently.The stratospheric polar vortex has recently recovered and is now relatively strong. It's the recovery of stratospheric polar vortex which causes the effects of the stratospheric warming to propagate down to the troposphere. If the stratospheric polar vortex didn't recover, from the warming then it would have no effect on the weather. There's a final sudden stratospheric warming event at the end of every winter, but it doesn't have any impact on the troposphere because the polar vortex doesn't recover until the following winter.Now we have a weak, wavy tropospheric jet-stream and a strong stratospheric polar vortex. This week the eastern US has been well on the cold side of the jet stream and the west on the warm side. Where I live in the UK, we've been flirting with the cold side, which has brought some disruptive snow, but nothing compared to last year. Next week the jet stream is forecast to move further north, bringing milder weather.