Digital Roads? (not solar) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: kazzle101
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 08:20:23 am
content: HelloIn the UK, Sheffield Councils road contractor Amey wants to put sensors all over the place, to "identify bins that are full and drains that need cleaning." they say they'll be using Connexin’s CityOS platform.This looks to be mostly a copy and paste of the press release from Amey's marketing department (apart from that bit about the trees):https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/amey-rolls-out-smart-road-sensors-across-sheffield-19-02-2020/They're saying this is so they would be "working better and smarter towards a greener and cleaner future for Sheffield." But they don't give any numbers for the cost of these devices, maintenance, infrastructure, cost of electricity or savings.The Connexin website lacks detail, but it seems they're using LoRaWAN to connect to a hub, which in turn sends data onto the service centre/https://www.connexin.co.uk/smart-waste/I can imagine a bin full sensor, a thing that measured the height of the waste, but someone still needs to turn up and empty the bin. Are they going to be send out a truck from the depot every-time there's an alert? Or are they going to have a regular round, like they do now, but only empty those bins the computer says so?Sheffield Council propaganda, not to be trusted:https://sheffieldnewsroom.co.uk/news/smartcitysheffield/Amey have a reputation in the city of being a bit poor.Karl.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 10:25:37 am
content: Top three things that are wrong with waste collection in the UK:1) Not every type of item that can and should be recycled, actually is.2) Not everything that is placed into recycle bins actually gets recycled.3) There is no (3).Lack of 'bin full' sensors is not currently a significant shortcoming

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 01:19:03 pm
content: There's some more information here:https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/02/19/sheffield_smart_bins/

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 03:00:16 pm
content: Yeah sensors all over the place. Surely this would make everything greener. Maybe Amey will cut the crap if we shove all those sensors up theirs.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 06:23:08 pm
content: Just another attempt to steal taxpayers money in the name of "progress".I work for a local authority, and I can tell you, the levels of waste, hypocrisy, inefficiency, and sheer ignorance would stagger you.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 06:27:34 pm
content: Perhaps - PERHAPS not stopping at bins that aren't full will result in slightly less fuel consumption by the collection trucks.However, it will NEVER POSSIBLY pay for the cost of the sensors and network and monitoring.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 06:44:39 pm
content: I think we'd need more data and more information about the plans to make a conclusion.It may be more complex than just not stopping at bins that are not full. Perhaps the gathered data will be used to show longer term trends, maybe they will see that there are hotspots where bins typically fill quickly and other areas where they fill much more slowly. This may allow them to schedule entire routes differently, maybe they service one area twice a week while another area may get by with a truck rolling through once a month. This could conceivably result in substantial savings if done right. Or it might be a complete waste of time, but sensors are dirt cheap these days so it doesn't have to cost a fortune.I've actually toyed with the idea of installing sensors in my own bins to track how full they are and remind me to roll them out to the curb the night before pickup day. Occasionally I lug a bag of trash or a box of recyclables out there only to realize the bin is already full and then I have to bring it back in so animals don't get into it.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 08:28:40 pm
content: My collection comes late enough that I just roll mine down the day of, before I leave for work. And since I do have the roller type, I don't care if it's half full, all the way full plus I have an extra bag, or in between, I just always take it down. If it's not full, by the time next week rolls around, I will have a pile of extra bags to carry, so not worth it to skip just because the bin isn't full.Figuring out a pattern like that doesn't require electronic sensors and all the associated gimmicks. The collection truck drivers just need to note which locations are full and which ones usually are not when they run their route. The trucks are probably already tracked by GPS, it would be pretty trivial to collect that data over the course of a month or two to see trends and then reconfigure routes. I don't see how the real time aspect would actually buy anything worth the cost of implementing it.Some things just do not need sophisticated electronics. Just ask Iowa...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 09:12:30 pm
content: My collection comes by around 6am, obviously it depends where along the route you happen to live since the collection cannot occur simultaneously everywhere.I'm not saying sensors are necessarily the best solution but it may turn out to not be as dumb an idea as it sounds, or maybe it will, who knows. It's probably cheaper in the long run to install a sensor in each bin than it is to pay drivers for the added time it takes to track how full bins are and somebody to process all the collected data.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 12:18:58 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 19, 2020, 09:12:30 pmDon't need to do that. Bins in the UK are almost universally now the 'wheelie' bin. They are rolled to the bin lorry, hooked onto a lifting bar, a button is pressed and the lorry does the rest. Just add a weight sensor to the lifting bar and when the button's pressed log the weight of the bin as you lift it. Job done and you only have to install sensors on a few lorries and there's no need for a network to backhaul the data.A wheelie bin:Bin lorry in operation:

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 12:47:51 am
content: We have the same wheelie bins here in Auckland, except the trucks have an extendable arm on the side.One for rubbish, and one for recycling.It reaches out, grabs the bin, empties it and puts it back without needing anyone to intervene. Driver stays in the truck.There might already be load sensors on the arm - i.e. for protection from someone fulling the bin full of concrete - but I am not sure on that.They have a person walking along doing rubbish audits in front of the truck from time to time.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 01:51:38 am
content: That's how it is in the USA too, at least where I am. Arm on the side of the truck lifts the bin and dumps it. It's funny how some stuff is so different and then other stuff ends up almost identical.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 02:12:46 am
content: QuoteNot around here: blue bags for general waste and black box-type things for recyclable. And some tiny black thing, kind of micro version of the green ones you show, for compostable stuff (but since we do our own composting that's been co-opted for non-rubbish duties).Mind, our binmen come around once a week on the dot. Bank holidays and the like only differ in that they turn up at 6am, presumably to get it done soonest so they can have the rest of the day off. From reading about UK bin collections I gather we are rather pampered here

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 10:05:57 am
content: Ditto with the load sensor on the truck and also possibly just an optical sensor on the truck and a sticker or printed label (barcode/QR code) that identifies each bin. (the bins have to be oriented correctly to dump for both the semi-auto and full-auto trucks so the label would always be on the front). As mentioned, the trucks already have GPS so there's all the data.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 01:50:27 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on February 20, 2020, 10:05:57 amYes, but that's a lot less potential revenue for the trash bin scammers.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 08:06:49 am
content: I have seen a report on "intelligent public bins" quite a while ago. This actually did save quite some workforce, as workers didn't need to check all those remote bins and they could plan better routes according to the amount of waste.The plan to integrate RFID plus a weight-measuring pickup-lift has been in the makings for years, you then have to pay according to the amount of waste you produce. I don't think this has been rolled out (in Germany) anywhere, other than a couple of prototype runs...

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 11:55:07 am
content: QuoteI bet that was in addition to the existing taxes, not instead of.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 12:28:14 pm
content: Our bins have been chipped a couple of years ago. It's just some kind of RFID tag expoxied under the rim of the bin somewhere.According to the disposal company, an unchipped bin will not be emptied. Also, the bins are weighted for statistical reasons, but when the bin is massively overloaded it will not be emptied and you may incur a fine and be forced to get a bigger bin.As far as I know it was quite common in our region that people just placed "rogue" bins at the road to get them emptied for free...

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 12:35:22 pm
content: QuoteSeems a bit of a 'cart before horse' thing. I thought we paid out taxes to cover the cost of carting our rubbish away, so what should it matter how many bins there are or where they came from? The only valid reason for specifying bins is to improve productivity (for instance, having ones that the truck can handle automatically). But we seem to have progressed, if that's the right word, to centering the issue around bins rather than the rubbish they're holding.Speeding is another example. Matters not whether the speed would be safe or appropriate, if it breaks some arbitrary figure it's a nick. We've gone from treating speed as a contributory factor in some event to it being a standalone absolute offense in itself.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 12:42:07 pm
content: Nah nah nah, here in Germany it is not so simple as "You already paid with your taxes"You have to pay for your rubbish here. The funny thing is that, in most areas, you pay by bin size. And, depending on the size of your household, you are forced to get a minimum bin size. For four people I think it's an 80 liter bin, but don't quote me on that.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 02:19:49 pm
content: Quote from: Haenk on February 21, 2020, 08:06:49 amLet's suppose it really does save significant work (which would assume that trash bin content varies a lot from one day to the next, which is quite possible, but I don't know if it's really that significant.)Then it probably depends on the country/region and their specifics, but in many areas, people are just NOT supposed to take the bins out if they are empty, so any bin out is supposed to be handled anyway. People taking bins out (or leaving them out) if empty are just fuckers, and should probably get fined to learn a lesson instead of resorting to silly technology. Now for the case of just optimizing routes, that would work only if there is one street/area that is completely empty (not any bin out) so the workers can avoid it entirely. The probability of that seems pretty low IMO. If you still have to go down some street to pick up even just one bin, then you're not saving anything really. I just don't get it.Cities that want to save costs just switch to a model in which bins are not handled every day, so people know when they can get their bins out or not, and there are tons of ways to make all this more effective without resorting to making every individual bin connected and/or equipped with any electronics.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 07:21:26 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 21, 2020, 02:19:49 pmI was talking about public bins, like at bus stations, in public parks etc., those are emptied by community workers on a regular base

author: TomS_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 05:52:45 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on February 20, 2020, 12:47:51 amSame in Australia. But the housing is so dense in the UK, and not every property has a slice of curb to put it's bins on, and even if it did, there are probably 3 cars parked in the way because housing estates simply aren't setup for modern families with 4 cars each.Those trucks just can't work here.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 06:19:40 pm
content: Quote from: TomS_ on February 24, 2020, 05:52:45 pmThere are very few streets in the UK where that kind of machine would work, even in the most afluent areas. Even if everyone has a driveway, there are always plenty of visitor's cars in the road. There are plenty of streets in older cities where they can't even use wheelie bins, because the street is too narrow for a large garbage truck to drive through with the perpetual line of parked cars each side. Residents use plastic bags. The garbage collectors gather these up in a large hand cart, and a mechanism empties this into a garbage truck in the nearest wide street.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 06:24:53 pm
content: Quote from: kazzle101 on February 19, 2020, 08:20:23 amAs I play their videos I desperately want to see them submerge beneath their own BS, and go away. That said, they really need to sharpen up that BS. I didn't hear the term "sensor dust" used even once.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 06:47:15 pm
content: Yet another issue with the approach, beyond the BS, is the following: even if some bins are not full enough that it would appear justified to empty them, they may contain stuff that could be very smelly or even unhealty to leave in the bins for extended periods of time, so I think this is yet another problem here. Unless of course they can add smart sensors that can detect odors AND bacterial content or other nasty stuff. Yeah.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 06:52:52 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 24, 2020, 06:47:15 pmYou make a good point that foodstuff needs to be cleared in a timely manner. However, its only necessary to put a timeout in every sensor, and you can have functionality just as good as we have now.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 06:54:21 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 24, 2020, 06:52:52 pmWhich, if it's just based on a time period, we can just as well empty them every x days, as I suggested earlier, and we don't need any sensor.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 06:56:38 pm
content: QuoteNo need. We already have separate bins for different stuff, and they even collect the different stuff on different days in some places. Put food in the wrong bin and you'll get fined. Simples

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 06:56:38 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 24, 2020, 06:54:21 pmBut that solution doesn't provide new business for someone's buddies.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 07:01:37 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 24, 2020, 06:19:40 pmAs I said earlier, wheelie bins are almost universal in the UK now, at least in urban areas - twenty years ago they weren't nearly so universal. I can't think of a London borough where I've seen bin bags out in residential areas in a long time except in the City and some parts of central London where, ironically, the streets tend to be wider. I can say with absolute certainty that the London boroughs of Enfield, Tower Hamlets, Waltham Forest and Newham, not known for their palatial avenues in residential areas, use wheelie bins and automated lorries on streets full of terraced houses with cars parked solidly on both sides. I think that the salient thing is that they are all rear loading but they are still of non trivial width and length but somehow they manage to get them around the side streets.Are you drawing largely on local experience and extrapolating from it based on old experience? I know you've only been back in the UK a year or two and perhaps haven't got around the rest of the UK enough to catch up with practice around the country - not that I'd expect you to go out on a bin spotting tour.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 07:05:00 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 24, 2020, 06:56:38 pmAhah I know.Doing extra business when everything is private is fine with me, even when the purpose is dubious - you're doing it between consenting people. Doing that when it's for public use with tax money, not so much.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 07:17:07 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 24, 2020, 07:01:37 pmRoads in London are mostly fairly wide. I can certainly speak for Enfield as I grew up there. The garbage trucks easily drive down any of the streets there. Plenty of streets have a solid line of parked cars on both sides, but there is very adequate space between those lines for a big garbage truck to pass effortlessly. However, if you look at many places in the Northern England streets can be very cramped. I live near York. Most of York uses wheelie bins, but there are sections of the city using bags, because the garbage trucks won't fit. You have to be really careful driving along many of the city streets even in a small car, or your wing mirrors will hit those of the parked cars. Its a pain moving house or having large furniture delivered in those streets.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 07:57:17 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 24, 2020, 07:17:07 pmThat makes sense, there are parts of York you'd have difficulty herding a fat pig through.