[YouTube]: American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 02:02:17 am
content: It always pleases and amuses me when people (usually Americans) are first introduced to the pinnacle of design in mains plug, our wonderful, venerable old British mains plugs and matching sockets.You’d think it was almost as if American shores were SO used to poor plug design, their ghast is well and truly flabbered when a SENSIBLE one is revealed to them:

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 05:22:10 am
content: Well, I can't be the only one who knows who really needs a plug.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 09:12:34 am
content: You guys obviously haven't used the AS/NZS 3112 plug.It's even better than the UK plug.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 09:15:52 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 20, 2022, 09:12:34 amPlease expand on “even better”; in what aspects? By looking at it, I don’t see it. Thanks.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 09:20:36 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 20, 2022, 05:22:10 amIt took a moment to sink in, but I think you mean a plug like this.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 09:27:02 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on October 20, 2022, 09:20:36 amYou seem to like humour. Here’s one:

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 09:51:22 am
content: Yes, that one is funny

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 10:08:53 am
content: Quote from: eti on October 20, 2022, 09:15:52 amVersions of it support up to 32 amps. But besides that, I don't see any major advantages.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 10:11:31 am
content: Quote from: eti on October 20, 2022, 09:15:52 amThey are typically a solid moulded plug, so less components to corrode or wear out like the fuse holder/fuse itself.No need to worry about fuses (particularly of the wrong rating). Over-current protection here is typically built into the product itself AND at the switchboard (which also have RCDs).No need to worry about loose or incorrect wiring inside the plug, or broken strain relief.You can pull them directly out of the wall and break the circuit but pulling directly on the cable. Either through laziness or in an emergency.They have a smaller profile, while still allowing for variants up to 32 amps.Whilst right-angled plugs do exist, they aren't common. The risk of stepping on the pins of an up-turned plug is negligible.They fit nicely through smaller round holes that have been drilled out in desks, panels, cabinets etc...

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 10:53:14 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 20, 2022, 10:11:31 amSimilar to the one use in China, based in the same spec but with neutral and live reversed.But I would say that the Schuko does all of that plus is not Polarised. Unfortunately don't do 32A but normally those type of equipment are direct wired via other means.The only thing I would pick up from the UK standard would be the switch to turn off the plug or row of plugs in every outlet.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 11:16:37 am
content: Quoteno need to worry about a fuse in the uk plug,as long as the flex is 4mm2or larger. Must admit the aussy piggy back plug is an interesting idea

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 11:22:09 am
content: His reasons for not liking the plug are pretty dumb..."it's big", "you can stand on it", "if the light does not turn on, you have an extra place to check to see where the fault is".I'll take those "flaws" over the US socket and plug design any day. Quite happy with my 3kW space heater, gaming PC and toaster oven all plugged into the same circuit running at the same time.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 11:39:10 am
content: Quote from: Jackster on October 20, 2022, 11:22:09 amBut it is also funny that he discards history somewhat. Early sockets did not have the child protection. What I can find about it is 1928 for the first to arrive. Which is early compared to the Netherlands. I know, because I did like what he described in the video. Stick things into the socket out of curiosity(https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/British-plugSocket_history.html)Nowadays that kind of protection is somewhat standard at least in the Netherlands and France, and I hate it, because it is harder to plug it in. But with what he showed about the English one it looks easier and better thought through then the ones used here.

author: redkitedesign
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 11:58:03 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 20, 2022, 10:11:31 amFunny you'd list that as an advantage of the Aussie plug. Because the prongs on the usual (10A) plug are so flimsy, they will bend (and break) if you do that more often than on a blue moon.Also, the 32A growth path of the Aussie plug is a bit moot, as pretty much all sockets are 10A anyhow.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 01:29:05 pm
content: Quote from: redkitedesign on October 20, 2022, 11:58:03 amYou don't use 32A plugs in 10A sockets - basically because you can't.You will note that a lower rated plug will always be able to be plugged into a higher rated socket, but not the other way around. (There are a couple of other variants for special circuits.)As for the number of installations with 32A sockets - there won't be many and you certainly won't see many in a residential setting. Even 15A sockets (commonly used to supply caravans and higher power equipment, such as welders and bigger air compressors) are not overly common.The point to take away from this - is that there IS a standard for those who need it.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 01:45:11 pm
content: For higher currents and voltages the norm I know of is CEEFORM.Bigclive likes them too

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 02:15:48 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 20, 2022, 10:11:31 amSo are ours - excepting the fuse, which I've seen wear out or corrode, uh.. not yet!QuoteSomewhat valid concern.QuoteStrain reliefs fail on moulded products too. So do crimps, solder, and ultrasonic welds inside them.QuoteThis is precisely why strain reliefs fail, and is a practice which encourages unnecessary wear and tear and increases the chance of a fault in the plug or socket.QuoteAnd the profile of the plug sticking out the wall is higher. Downside. Don't leave cables on the floor.Quote from: pcprogrammer on October 20, 2022, 11:39:10 amThat's quite interesting and also quite irrelevant, because BS1363 was first introduced in 1947, with shutters.Quote from: Brumby on October 20, 2022, 01:29:05 pmSo much for that overcurrent protection, eh?Wow, that turned out to be a big wall o' text, SMF quote function is not friendly.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 02:17:21 pm
content: I was very impressed with a UK-stylesocketin a hotel bathroom in a small town in Saudi Arabia.Immediately above the toilet, the exhaust fan had been powered by stripping the ends of the zip cord and inserting them in the line and neutral female connections.The spring-loaded gate, activated by the PE terminal (in the form of a screwdriver insertion during wiring), held them in place.Only recently has the US caught up with this safety feature of power sockets.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 02:29:03 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 20, 2022, 02:15:48 pmAs if this whole thread is relevant.A while back it was in the pet peeve thread that someone complained about the child protection in extension cords. If I recall correctly it was still possible to get them without in the US, and I would like it if I could buy it here in France too. But then without the earth pin setup they have here. Just the more standard type used in the Netherlands.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 02:31:30 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on October 20, 2022, 02:29:03 pmWell, it's eti, so very true.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 02:38:23 pm
content: Quotethe ceeform is a great connector,and thankfully become almost a standard for industrial power connectors upto 125A ,yea theirs versions upto 800A ,but there like rocking horse manure, gone are the days of trying to find a plug to fit the obscure walsall / telemecanique/lewden sockets that had been fitted sevral aeons ago

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 02:42:01 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 20, 2022, 11:16:37 amPretty sure that's nonsense, even if cable is 4mm^2 the BS1363 plug is definitely not rated for more than 13A and socket ring mains are typically installed with 32A MCBs.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 02:47:56 pm
content: QuoteWhat is the maximum current available at the pins of a 13A plug? Why is there a fuse in the plug? and what is the rating of 4mm flex?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 02:54:28 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 20, 2022, 02:47:56 pmErr, somewhere between 200A and.. hard to say, 3-4kA?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 03:02:16 pm
content: Quoteeven more if you can see the Hv tranny out your window

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 04:09:20 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 20, 2022, 02:47:56 pmPFC for our property was over 1kA - and we're quite far from the substation.So you would want some kind of protection for the plug, which the fuse & MCB provide, but the MCB protects the 4mm^2 cable (or 2.5mm^2 cable in a ring) from CU to the socket, whereas the fuse protects the plug and cable.Technically there's a complication with this arrangement where a double socket is only rated to ca 20A even though the combined load potential is 26A.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 04:24:32 pm
content: QuoteIf you dig into the regs youll find a bit that says a protective device shall be fitted were theres a reduction in the current capacity of the circuit,and thats why us brits put a fuse in our plugs,nothing to do with protecting the equipment,4mm flex cord,non armoured is rated for 32A,so following the regs theres no reduction in the current capacity of the circuit and so no fuse is required

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 04:26:58 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 20, 2022, 04:24:32 pmI'm fully aware the fuse has nothing to do with protecting the equipment. However, the fuse also protects the plug and by extension the socket as well, and the BS1363 plug and socket is not rated to exceed 13 amps, therefore it is still required with 4mm^2 cable. I can tell you having used a 10 amp electric car charger for some time on a BS1363 socket/plug that they don't like extended high current operation and begin to overheat, a safe limit is around 8 amps. The idea of 32 amps being OK with the right cable is farcical.(Heaven forbid the poor sod trying to get 4mm^2 into a BS1363, but I suppose that's another matter.)

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 04:59:58 pm
content: QuoteBut thats not what i said,i said with a greater than 4mm cable we wouldn't need a fuse in the plug There is a 13A plugs without a fuse,they were red in colour stamped with "medical use only" and not available to the general publicQuoteEasy with mk plug tops and hof 7 cable,6mm is a bit of a struggle though

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 05:38:39 pm
content: I like the British plugs, I got a bag of them at CPC when I visited there years ago and use them for 240V stuff on the bench. They're nice solid plugs that fit firmly in the receptacle. The thing I don't like about them though is they are huge, power strips are bulky and clunky and have relatively few receptacles on them and extension cord ends are enormous. They tend to land on the floor with the prongs facing up and it really hurts to step on one too.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 07:42:17 pm
content: Don't worry too much about mains plugs. If everything keeps going as it is now, we should end up with no mains power to deal with, so mains plugs will be purely decorative.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 04:34:38 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 20, 2022, 10:11:31 amHm, well fuses were put in to protect the appliances cable and it means that a ring main is possible which saves a lot of copper. This is because you fuse the main board at 32A, this fuse protects the house wiring, not the devices wiring. Other systems run a wire through the house for each socket using more copper.There are plenty of moulded UK plugs, like every IEC cable you get with a piece of equipment. These have a fuse still that can be changed.Ours are a bit clunky yes.I lived in Italy for some of my life so have used other plugs, I never found much advantage is the Italian/European system.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 05:08:44 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 21, 2022, 04:34:38 pmDo they? I've never seen a star arrangement but maybe it exists somewhere. In North America receptacles are daisy chained, like a ringmain without the final segment that loops back to the panel. The ringmain does allow thinner wire to be used, but it's not allowed here, primarily for the reason that if the ring becomes open somehow there is no indication of failure but now you can overload the wire.A weak point of our system is that receptacle circuits are usually protected by a 20A breaker while most of our plugs have no fuse at all, so it relies on an appliance being internally fused to protect its cord. Extension cords can be dangerous because they are not fused.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 05:21:09 pm
content: I have to agree that the British plug has more intrinsic safety features than any of the much less standardized US plugs. But it is significantly larger which has a number of disadvantages.I spent some time googling around, looking for data that might indicate that the greater intrinsic safety of the British plug is worth it. It turns out that it would take a fair amount of time to sort out, and it may not be possible. The searches turned up no consistently recorded data, and a surprisingly small amount of data overall. The overall impression I got was that the vast majority of electrical accidents (and definitely the fatal ones) occur in industrial settings. Lightning seems to be the next problem and home accidents are a distant third. This trend seems to be world wide.One interesting thing was that the data is usually divided into "low voltage" and "high voltage" injuries. Low voltage being anything under 1000 volts so no distinction between US and British distribution systems.I found nothing that would definitively sort out the contribution of plug design, just some off hand comments which may indicate it is a minor player. Apparently a big part of electrical injuries to children is biting through a power cord, something that is independent of plug design.So I guess at this point I just have to say cheers, and congratulations on having a better polished safety apple.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 05:26:02 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on October 21, 2022, 05:21:09 pmPets too, although that probably doesn't get reported. My girlfriend fostered a dog a while back that had a habit of chewing on things. She chewed the cord off the floor lamp and ironically it was the worn out crappy receptacle that very likely saved the dog's life by allowing the plug to fall out of the wall before she had chewed through it.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 07:08:31 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 21, 2022, 05:08:44 pmIn the Netherlands it is standard practice. A single connection box in the ceiling from which the sockets and the lighting in the room are connected. To ensure not sitting in the dark when a circuit breaker trips the hallway is wired from a different breaker.Here is a video on what is called a "centraaldoos"

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 07:12:18 pm
content: Many people like the British plug until they step on one.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 08:22:05 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 21, 2022, 07:12:18 pmThey're not as bad as TO3 transistors.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 08:49:03 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 21, 2022, 05:08:44 pmCheck out the technology connections youtube channel, he analyses the system to bits.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 09:03:57 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 21, 2022, 08:49:03 pmAnd I don't recall him showing 'a wire for each socket' - circuits are usually wired as radials, point to point. The star arrangement pcprogrammer points out is fairly unusual but quite logical if you're operating on a circuit-per-room basis.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 09:23:32 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 21, 2022, 09:03:57 pmI mean he goes to town an the way the US system works and points out flaws particularly in the US extension cords. Ultimately different places found different ways to solve the same problem.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 09:26:06 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 21, 2022, 09:23:32 pmAh, yes, he is quite critical of the design and products in that area, rightfully so.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 02:02:26 am
content: Quote from: Simon on October 21, 2022, 09:23:32 pmIt's the price we pay for having a system that was developed very early and that largely has retained backward compatibility for more than a century.That said, for all its warts the North American system works pretty well and is fairly safe, you don't hear about consumers getting electrocuted very often and save for houses built during the Vietnam war with aluminum wiring, electrical fires caused by the wiring are fairly rare. Like every other system around the world it has advantages and disadvantages, and it gets the job done. I've discussed at length with a British friend over the years and we've both concluded that there is no clear winner between the two.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 02:11:39 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 20, 2022, 02:17:21 pmAmusingly, that doesn't work anymore with the latest designs. With recent versions, you have to insert both line and neutral pins simultaneously for the gates to open. If you try to press a screwdriver or other implement into any single opening individually, the gates won't move.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 02:20:09 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 20, 2022, 10:11:31 amIf you trust the manufacturer. Here in the USA I get highly suspicious of molded plugs on 1500 W appliances that get rather warm when the appliance is running.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 05:17:02 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 21, 2022, 09:03:57 pmIn lots of Dutch houses and certainly new builds this system is used. But on a worldly scale it probably is not used that much. Don't know how it is done in Germany, but the sockets and switches I used when I renovated the house we had in the Netherlands are Busch Jaeger, a German brand. Good quality.Here in France it is worse. The star point is the fuse box. You run separate strands for 5 to 8 sockets or light points, depending on the fuse rating. Lots of copper wiring and fuses needed.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 08:00:13 am
content: Quote from: james_s on October 22, 2022, 02:02:26 amSo did we in the UK. The BS1363 plug & socket was a replacement, developed as a result of a committee set up in 1942 to consider the electrical aspects of post-war rebuilding. One of its members (and the only safety specialist) was the electrical engineer Caroline Hasletthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Haslett, noted (among many, many other things) for her activism in promoting the use of electricity in the home to reduce women's workload, and in home safety.Of coursethe BS1363 plug is a model of good design - a woman was responsible for it!

author: py-bb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 08:02:52 am
content: One of the few things I feel "national pride" over is our (British) plugs.Like the way the earth pin lifts a cover of the live/neutral wires, making childproofing redundant (there's a website I found once that convincingly argued for the UK plugs at least, they're a liability not a safety measure)THEORETICALLY you cannot put a plug in upside down (so the earth pin is in and lifts the flaps, thus exposing the contacts) devices are supposed to be so bulky they themselves physically block the L/N pins so the plug cannot be inserted far enough to lift the blocker.In practice this often is the case, like most strip plugs I see you can put a plug in upside down, exposes the L/N easily (I've seldom used it as an easy way to get at them)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 08:20:14 am
content: I think the point is that the system is safe when people want to be safe. It's obvious which way the plug goes in, in other countries they have no concept of live and neutral as the plug can be inserted any way around. Yes if you want to override the system you can. I have often up to just the other day plugged a European adapter pack in without an adapter by opening the shutter with a screw driver, but that is my look out as I intentionally override the system and don't do it other than for things only I will access and as a temporary measure.

author: py-bb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 02:07:40 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on October 22, 2022, 08:00:13 amA woman was responsible for me and I'm the model of failure.It is demonstrated your claim is false.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 02:58:37 pm
content: It's a joke, lets not get into "that" debate.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 03:18:09 pm
content: I have moved from U.K. plug land ( Ireland ) to Schuko ( Greece ) I way prefer Schuko

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 03:33:21 pm
content: Quote from: MadScientist on October 22, 2022, 03:18:09 pmSchuko is garbage. Non polarized and unreliable. I've seen plenty of them eventually fail with melted and carbonized plastic around terminals when intensely used close to the max rated current. And those were sockets from reputable manufacturers like Siemens. Sockets from less reputable manufacturers have an unreliable contact even with light use. Sockets which are protected from inserting things are garbage too. UK socket mechanism relies on earth prong to release the shutter on live terminals. Schuko is either unprotected, or even worse, protected and relies on garbage shutters you need to push though with a lot of force, some sockets are nearly impossible to use because of that. Works especially bad with phone chargers and similar things which often get damaged with bent or broken prongs as a result.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 04:04:23 pm
content: Well, we all know there is a clearly superior mains wiring solution, and you are already using it. It is IEC 60320 C13 and the E plug. The C13 plugs are virtually on every computer and home equipment with replaceable wiring. It's 1/4 the size of the British plug and about the size of the American 2 prong (which is hot garbage). It exist in lockable version. Extension cords interlock, you only would ever need a male to female version of the cable. Extension boxes are super easy to wire and to make them reliable and it is polarized. And it's an existing standard.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 04:42:48 pm
content: I believe shuko are 16a rated? In Italy they have similar plugs, one size is 16A and the other 10A, most sockets are dual size, they also have shuko, it's a right mess. The UK used to have a 3 pin plug that is the roughly the same shape as the current ones but with none of the considerations of the current ones, then there were 2 or more sizes.I've put 16A through a UK plug, they handle it, get a bit warm but quite happy. I've heard of one finally melting at 46A

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 05:20:51 pm
content: Quoteyep,same as a 16A ceeform,i know which id trust most to handle 16A 24/7QuoteDo you mean the old round pin 15A, 5A and 2A,rarely fused and until fairly recently non shrouded pins,the 15A and 5A is still very common for dimmed supply's in theatres.The 5A and 2A is also still in use for lighting circuits were you want to centrally control over table lamps

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 05:31:11 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on October 22, 2022, 08:00:13 amThat's relatively recent compared to the American NEMA 15 plug, which was developed in 1904 and remains in common use today. It has been improved with polarization and grounding but an original 1904 plug will fit perfectly in a modern receptacle.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 05:49:49 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 22, 2022, 03:33:21 pmThe UK plugs often weld into their socket, through melting/melding of the plastic with older sockets. There was a plague of this when the plastic half sleeve was introduced on the live and neutral pins. The contact position inside the socket had not previously been well defined, and many sockets were contacting the pin close to the plastic/metal transition. The resulting poor contact meant high consumption appliances, like tumble dryers, that run for long periods would melt the plug and socket into each other. Things like kettle are usually OK, as they run in shorter bursts.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 05:55:12 pm
content: QuoteReally? I've never experienced that.You must have somereallyold sockets.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 06:34:08 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 22, 2022, 05:55:12 pmIts probably a matter of makes. MK developed the sleeve design, and probably always made sockets which work well with them. Old Crabtree and Contactum sockets would weld. Clipsal sockets of any vintage will weld, but they are not exactly high quality products.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 06:50:17 pm
content: I've never heard of it but then how long ago was the plastic bit added?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 06:55:48 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 22, 2022, 06:50:17 pmThe regulations changed to add the sleeve in 1984, but MK was making plugs with sleeves for a number of years before that.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 07:07:52 pm
content: coppice answered it, but you can check it out here:https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/British-plugSocket_history.htmlThe complete history, but it is just the one site so how trust worthy is it

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 07:38:29 pm
content: OK in 1984 I was 1.....

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 07:44:22 pm
content: I am very confused about a big portion of the replies here.A plug design is a mixture of being safe (probably highest priority), size/convenience and costs.These plugs have certain standards that have to be met.I have read some stories of plugs being burned or so.I believe those stories, but keep in mind that these plugs were also not confirm standards.Because that is not normal behavior for such a plug.As for safety, I really don't understand US standard plugs.They are very prone to kind of hang out of the socket with both pins totally exposed, very easy to touch (even more so for little fingers)AUS/NZ plugs used to have the same problem, and therefor modern plugs need have to have a coated on the pins (that is mandatory according current standards).US plugs are also extremely easy to kick/slap/pulled out of the socket.I just really don't understand at all how such a plug with such simple safety flaws can be a standard at all?All other choices are just kind of different taste I guess.A modern schuko is totally recessed in the socket, so any (side) force on it is dealt with by the socket itself (which is quite a big surface).Most other type plugs (UK or US) all rely on the mechanical strength of the electrical pins.Which is from a electro-mechanical point of view, kind of interesting.The same goes for rectangular shaped pins, which are not only a little more tricky to make, they also have a less uniform design.Which is less great for mechanical stress, corrosion and electrical loads.Schuko can also mounted either way, which is totally fine for any electrical device made from about the 90s or so.I personally don't have a preference as long as the plug is safe and sturdy.I guess the schuko is just a compromise between that, as well as not being so enormous like UK plugs.(that size just doesn't make any sense)In the end it's obviously also not possible to change a whole plug type for any country.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 08:39:45 pm
content: I do seem to remember wondering at the US plugs, they are rather exposed. At least 120V is not quite as dangerous as 240V (250V at mine still - yay for transmission efficiency)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 08:58:36 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on October 22, 2022, 07:44:22 pmBecause they have been in use for over 100 years and people just know not to touch the prongs. You have to be really careless to get a shock, certainly never in my life have I ever been shocked by the prongs of a plug. Also the voltage is half what it is in places like the UK so a shock is much less likely to be lethal. Another thing worth noting, light sockets throughout the world have no safety mechanisms that I've ever seen, a person can easily insert a finger in an empty socket and receive a shock. Is that really so much different than being able to touch part of a plug you're not supposed to touch? Electricity is dangerous, it's easier to teach people how to handle it safely than to try to protect against every possible abuse.Being able to kick/pull a plug out of a receptacle is in many cases a feature and not a bug. If you trip over a cord it's usually better to pull the plug out of the wall than to yank the appliance onto the floor or trip and fall, possibly injuring yourself. A good quality receptacle holds the plug pretty firmly, they don't just fall out, unless it's a very cheap and well worn receptacle.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 08:59:57 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 22, 2022, 08:39:45 pmA lot of US sockets have an RCB/GFCI in them these days, especially in bathrooms. They seem to have gone down this path, rather than improve the plug and socket.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 09:03:37 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 22, 2022, 08:59:57 pmGFCI protection is required in damp locations, it has been required in bathrooms, garages and outdoor receptacles since the late 70s and in the 90s I think was when they added that requirement for kitchen receptacles or anything within 6' IIRC of a water source. They are primarily for protecting against leakage due to things being wet.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 09:09:58 pm
content: QuoteEven a table lamp with an es lamp base?Quotebest come to the uk and have a look at our enhanced safety lamp holder,with the lamp out theres no power to the pins.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 09:13:38 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 22, 2022, 08:58:36 pmThe difference being those you can turn off, and you don't have to interact with them regularly.QuoteSwiftly followed by..QuoteBecause it's easier to make a crappy socket than teach people not to trip over cables strung wildly around where they don't belong?

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 09:33:24 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 22, 2022, 09:09:58 pmWhat is the question here?Any lamp fixture has to be grounded (and therefore connected to a ground), any lamp base is either grounded or double insulated?A regular light bulb doesn't care, a modern LED bulb also doesn't care?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 09:34:43 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on October 22, 2022, 09:33:24 pmIt's not very double insulated when you're screwing in the lamp.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 09:42:05 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 22, 2022, 08:58:36 pmI find it very hard to believe if that is just a personal subject thought, or something actually being considered?For the last one, I hope not, because from a bigger perspective, that is extremely poor argumentation.Most schuko sockets used to be also totally open (as in, one could put a pen, or metal object in it).I forget when it was introduced, but since a few years a "child safety" little press cap inside the sockets in mandatory by standards.I absolutely hate them (also remove them on my own bench), but I totally get why it became mandatory from a bigger picture.Before people also knew very well that it was not safe to put a metal object inside those things and it also very rarely happened.In this case it's a cost vs hazard analyses.It's not if it very rarely happens, it's about the issues that are being created WHEN it happens.For any exposed pins, there is no excuse for. 115Vac or not, that doesn't matter.Some other wire or something else could get stuck in between (I have seen it), and create a spark or something that starts to smolder.I really fail to see and understand with any kind of logic why flimsy hanging plugs are a feature, I am really sorry.Mostly because the other end is meant for this.What people did in AUS and NZ was sensible to this, just add a insulating sleeve to the pins.Easy to implement, very cost effective, and will prevent any major issues.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 09:45:49 pm
content: Here is an American plug with which I am impressed.Unfortunately, it is not at all common, and this is the only example I have seen.It is a molded 3-prong plug for US 120 V service, at the end of the attached cord for a relatively modern toaster (that has no internet connection).Note the finger hole that makes it very easy to safely unplug the cord from the wall socket, thus removing the temptation to pull on the cord.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 09:52:22 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 22, 2022, 09:34:43 pmYes it is, once it is screwed.Technically speaking one has to call a capable person (like an electrician or licensed handy man), to replace those.In practice this obviously never happens, but that doesn't matter from a standards point of view.For those lamp fittings with just a simple two prong cable with a small bulb, it is impossible to touch or reach the metal threat of the lamp receptacle.Which is also a form of double insulation.But it does raise an interesting question or point about those full E27 bulbs standing lampsI guess one has to follow the manual, which means disconnecting the lamp, remove the bulb, install new bulb and connect the lamp again.Otherwise there is risk of being zapped. I have actually never thought (and cared) about it to be very honest.With fixed lamp fittings, the Life and Neutral have to be connected according standards, so in that case it's never an issue.The default standard procedure there, is to switch of the breaker/fuse first and than replace the bulb.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 09:54:56 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 22, 2022, 09:45:49 pmBut increasing the temptation for kids to unplug chordsWhich creates all kinds of other hazards.A schuko has a grip on the sides for this btw(well some do)

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 10:14:44 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on October 22, 2022, 09:52:22 pmSo "no, it isn't".Quote

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 10:31:33 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 22, 2022, 09:45:49 pmI am surprised it is a three prong plug. Every small kitchen appliance I have encountered so far has only had a two prong plug on it.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 10:45:15 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 22, 2022, 07:38:29 pmThe early '80s was the best time to be 1, so I'm told.Wait. What?

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 10:47:31 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 22, 2022, 10:14:44 pmWhat's so funny?That is actually the case in a lot of places/countries?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 10:48:59 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on October 22, 2022, 10:47:31 pmNot being allowed to change a lightbulb by yourself? That is, in fact, hilarious, depressing, and stupid in equal measure.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 10:58:55 pm
content: How many bond traders does it take to change a light bulb?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 01:23:27 am
content: Quote from: IanB on October 22, 2022, 10:31:33 pmMy toaster oven, microwave and refrigerator all have 3 prong plugs. Smaller stuff like toasters, hand mixers, popcorn poppers and stuff like that are normally 2 prong.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 01:25:40 am
content: Quote from: b_force on October 22, 2022, 09:52:22 pmI don't think I've ever seen a portable lamp with a grounded cord on it. It doesn't matter though, ES or BC, if you remove the lamp you've got a live exposed contact in the socket. The solution is to teach people not to stick anything in a light socket except for a bulb, and ideally unplug the lamp or turn off the wall switch before doing it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 01:27:37 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 22, 2022, 09:09:58 pmI've been to the UK and I have some light sockets I got from there, I confess I've never tried sticking my finger in one that was energized to see if it would shock me. How does the mechanism work? Is it a standard feature?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 01:34:34 am
content: Quote from: james_s on October 23, 2022, 01:27:37 amIt doesn't. I assume he's messing about. When you remove a bayonet lamp the exposed pins are live.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:41:37 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 23, 2022, 01:34:34 amNo, they're actually a thing, they integrate a rotary switch into the body.https://docs.rs-online.com/8b74/0900766b813fbb9b.pdf

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:45:44 am
content: Quotewhy would i be messing about? just because you haven't seen them dont mean they dont exist.first google hit and ,https://www.discount-electrical.co.uk/product.php/380562925/ashley-624sel212-9-kleva-white-t2-rated-safety-enhanced-pendant-set-complete-with-9-inch-flex-short-skirt---lampholderif you read the specificationsQuote

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:52:44 am
content: Quote from: james_s on October 23, 2022, 01:23:27 amAll of my kitchen appliances with metal exteriors, including large appliances, such as refrigerators, and the small appliances such as mixer, toaster, and coffee grinder, have three-prong plugs. The small appliances with two-prong (polarized) plugs are double-insulated, with plastic exteriors.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 03:19:05 am
content: Quote from: b_force on October 22, 2022, 09:33:24 pmThe threaded part of an ES lamp socket is part of the wiring of the lamp circuit, & cannot be grounded.Depending on how the connections are made to the socket, it could be Neutral or Active.If the light switch is inadvertently wired in the Neutral line, & the socket transposed, the threaded part is still "hot" when off.In the Bayonet cap lamps used for house lighting in Oz, both the Active & Neutral contacts are insulated from the metal part of the light bulb.Ideally, the metal part of the socket would be grounded, but that is AFAIK not done---in any case, many modern sockets make that part out of plastic, as it doesn't need to be metal.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 03:34:30 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 22, 2022, 10:48:59 pmSeeing how some people are clueless of some stuff that is not twitter rants and celebrity's gossip I would not even task them into connecting a plug to an outlet...

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 05:04:57 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 23, 2022, 02:52:44 amThat's interesting. I have a toaster and two kettles with metal exteriors and two prong plugs. That's why I made the comment, and said "small" kitchen appliances. Refrigerator and microwave do indeed have three prong plugs.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 10:13:09 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 20, 2022, 02:15:48 pmYeh, maybe. But in my time, I've never actually seen a plug fail in this manner. They are extremely robust. That's not to say it doesn't occur, but it's rare.A clean, low (physical) resistance break is far less likely to result in damage to a plug or socket. Even if it's unintentional (like you moving a vacuum cleaner just that bit too far), I'd rather just have it shut off because the plug was pulled as opposed to damaging pins or the wall socket itself.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:21:14 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 23, 2022, 02:41:37 amThere have long been some niche products like that. You made it sounds like bayonet lamps are safe. The vast majority are not.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:29:53 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on October 23, 2022, 05:04:57 amMy former classic toaster did have a two-prong plug before it was retired after 60 years of service (obtained from a parent). The modern replacement also has a metal body, and is one of my countertop small appliances with a three-prong plug. For the plastic-cased double-insulated small appliances, I don't know where the third wire would be connected.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:42:04 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 23, 2022, 02:21:14 pmNo, he made it sound like there's a product on the market with safety features.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:57:31 pm
content: What are the holes in the US prongs for? Are they for ball bearings to drop in and retain the plug? I presume they're not so some kid can bolt some wires to them...If they are part of a retaining mechanism, shouldn't that mitigate against them falling out of the socket, but still allow them to pop out if the cable is snagged?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 03:20:32 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 20, 2022, 04:26:58 pmThe irony is that a lot of the heat in a heavily loaded 13A plug comes from the fuse, so on balance it may actually be safer overall to use an unfused 13A plug for a 10A car charger.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 03:54:20 pm
content: QuoteNot even niche,available from all good electrical wholesalers,nor that new, i first discovered them in the mid 90's , but if your not playing with the stuff most days you may be excused for thinking that.They do have 1 minor down fall ,but that don't effect the end user,you need another adaptor in your testing kit as just probing the contacts dont work

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 03:56:36 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on October 23, 2022, 02:57:31 pmA long time ago, receptacles were made with a protruding nub on the spring that latched into the hole and made the plug more secure. But things changed and receptacles today are made with much stronger spring force and no longer need that feature. However, plugs are still made with the holes in the prongs, just in case they get plugged into one of the older receptacles that was made with the locking nubs inside it.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 04:09:59 pm
content: Thanks

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 04:13:15 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 23, 2022, 02:21:14 pmTo be practical about it, if you poke your finger inside a bayonet socket while it is switched on, the most likely outcome is that your finger will contact both pins at the same time. So the result will be that your finger gets zapped, which while painful, is not dangerous. Realistically, the probability of receiving a shock current that goes through your heart is low.We can also observe that every child over the age of 4 or so knows not to poke fingers in light sockets. And children under the age of 4 need to be supervised and have all kinds of dangerous things kept out of reach.While there is an undeniable possibility of electric shock, it is an exaggeration to say that such light sockets are not safe. There are countless millions of them installed and there is a negligible incidence of harm arising from them.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 04:55:11 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on October 23, 2022, 02:57:31 pmI don't know the original design requirement, but I have seen small padlocks inserted through the two flat-blade holes to prevent installation.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 05:01:43 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 23, 2022, 10:13:09 amPerhaps the extreme example in current use of a high physical resistance break is the US series of "twist lock" connectors, mostly used in industrial or commercial contexts for single or three-phase cordage.https://www.hubbell.com/wiringdevice-kellems/en/Products/Electrical-Electronic/Wiring-Devices/Locking-Devices/Insulgrip-Twist-Lock/c/2027741Even if you drive away in your pickup truck with the compressor in the back still plugged in, you can't pull the mating connectors apart, but the cord on one end of the mated pair will fail, possibly exposing live wires.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 07:17:55 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 23, 2022, 03:20:32 pmThere are always Chinese suppliers happy to oblige. They'll even throw in a sleeved PE pin, no extra charge!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 07:22:41 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on October 23, 2022, 02:57:31 pmNobody really seems to know. Technology Connections did a video about this but even he didn't have a concrete answer. Most but not all plugs have them and I've never seen a receptacle with a ball detent. Even twist-lock plugs have them.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 07:28:36 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 23, 2022, 03:54:20 pmThey could be widely available and still niche. What matters is the installed base, not how easy they are to obtain. I could see them being useful in a child's room for example but in most cases I think it's probably easier to just teach people not to stick things in light sockets.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 07:29:15 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 23, 2022, 07:22:41 pmThis answer provided by Legrand seems to have a lot of credibility, since they actually make the plugs and should know why they do it:

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 08:53:42 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 23, 2022, 04:55:11 pmWould be easier just to cut off the plug

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 08:57:56 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on October 23, 2022, 08:53:42 pmNonsense: a padlock is reversible, and can be part of a lock-out/tag-out safety procedure.https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/publications/factsheet-lockout-tagout.pdf

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 10:13:56 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 23, 2022, 07:17:55 pmThat's fine - the CCA wire will fuse at an amp or two anyway

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 12:09:24 am
content: Quote from: IanB on October 23, 2022, 04:13:15 pmFalling off a ladder after being zapped is dangerous, though!Been there, done that ---not from a light socket, though!QuoteSpot on!I can't believe so many people don't know where their little kids are, & yet scream "Somebody(else) is to blame for this!" if the child gets run over in the front driveway (often by the very same parents) or think that 4 year olds (or even 8 year olds) can safely be left with a burning candle in the case of a power outage.Maybe we were "helicopter parents" but our kids survived!Quote

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 10:25:20 pm
content: The standard UK plugs use a very coarse thread.If the cable assembly is treated less than perfectly, those fat threads seem to vibrate loose… arcing often ensues.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 10:35:42 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on October 25, 2022, 10:25:20 pmI've never had an issue with them coming loose when fitted properly to begin with. The thread is also not specified, so you'll find it varies make to make, some are rather fine.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 11:19:37 pm
content: For all you lovers of the uk plugs, a question.Do you prefer the Mk loop it around the terminal or the more common poke the wire through the hole ? For me ,if im not paying its mk, yea there a bit more fiddly to get a neat job with no stray strands poking out, but thats outweighed by the wing type cord grip.The worst are those dam rubber plugs were you need to slide the top up the cable before you fit the plug.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 11:27:20 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 25, 2022, 11:19:37 pmPersonally I prefer the hole, because I use ferrules. I also like the old fashioned two screw grip, it's rather reliable - as long as the plug isn't so cheap the base bends when you tighten it.

author: Dundarave
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 03:51:35 am
content: You know, the fact that there are 5 pages (and counting) of comments on British plugs is, in itself, a commentary on the utility (or not) of something so ubiquitous and prosaic in our modern world.It would be not even be worth talking about the (by comparison) tiny North American plugs if the British plug didn’t exist for contrast! I guess the Brits can add that to the list of their plugs “superior attributes”, lol.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 04:13:08 am
content: The real reason the US Nema plug power cords still have holes in them. Here is what a production line for them looks like:It allows for a cheap plastic injection molding holding the pins perfectly level during injection.In the really old days, some plugs were a bent sheet of metal to thicken the plug pin with a hole on one side of that metal making a dent, but the hole would not go completely through.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 10:13:37 am
content: I'm more inclined to think that they use the hole because it's there rather than putting the hole in to help them. After all, if it were just for manufacture then some parts would have the hole, some not, and some have a differently sized one in a different position, and that could make socket contacts very variable in function depending on plug.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 03:07:06 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on October 26, 2022, 10:13:37 amI seem to recall there's a point in the standard about the allowable size and location of said hole. It's not required, though, and some indeed don't have them.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 01:07:52 pm
content: The 13A uk plug and socket is simply too big. That’s. It’s major failing it requires big back boxes , hard to make slimline extensions sockets and the insertion force is too greatIt’s an example of the perils of a single design criteria , ie safety. When several criteria should have been used . I know older people who physically cannot unplug the plug.These days with multiple RCBO protection , there’s no need for a single obscession on plug safety , equally is polarisation an issue, in realityThat’s. Not to say the plug is going to disappear but it’s has its drawbacks that’s clear

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 03:34:31 pm
content: Quote from: MadScientist on December 22, 2022, 01:07:52 pmNon-issueQuoteEh? Non-issue.QuoteYes.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 03:44:31 pm
content: Quote from: MadScientist on December 22, 2022, 01:07:52 pmThe shutters on sockets do prevent electrocution of curious children, for which the hazard current is much less than that for which an RCD would trip at.The biggest failing (IMO) of the British plug is there's no accommodation for anything other than 13A plugs. It would be nice to see something like a 32A plug built on a similar style (perhaps with backwards compatibility for 13A plugs?) Such plugs could be used for higher power appliances (ovens, for instance) or portable EV charging. I believe Australia allows this, it's common to find 20 and 25A sockets in kitchens. Imagine a 32A kettle!Polarisation is a real issue. Most table lamps are single pole switched, and we do not have the concept of split phase like the Americans do with their 240V appliances. The same applies to other appliances too.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 04:50:15 pm
content: Quotethere's ceeforms for that sort of thing,and all things domestic over a couple of KW tend to be hard wired anyways.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 06:45:21 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 22, 2022, 03:44:31 pmThe split phase thing isn't an issue here for that, you'd never see a 240V table lamp. Our 240V circuits are limited to large stationary appliances like electric clothes dryers, cook stoves, electric hot water heaters, built in electric heat, central air conditioning and stuff like that. These things are either hardwired or connected via a special receptacle on a dedicated circuit.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 06:47:48 pm
content: I'm surprised that expensive floor lamps from reputable vendors here in the US still rely on two-prong polarized plugs, even with large brass structures.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 06:53:43 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on December 22, 2022, 06:47:48 pmI am too actually, I'm not sure how they get away with that. About 20 years ago I had one of those 300W halogen torchier lamps in my office at work. I thought I could feel a slight tingle a few times when I touched it, then one day I was moving a PC and I unplugged the VGA cable, it swung and the end of the cable brushed the lamp. There was a bang and a bright flash and the breaker feeding the office I was in tripped. After that I disassembled the lamp and found the top had been twisted around to tighten it up and the end of the threaded tube up the middle had cut through the insulation on the wires to the lampholder. The entire body of the floor lamp had been floating at 120V for who knows how long. Precisely the sort of dangerous fault condition that protective earth ground prevents.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2022, 10:24:45 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 22, 2022, 06:45:21 pmAmateur Radio Linear Amplifiers are a case where they use a special receptacle in the USA.Not directly on topic, but a trap with some devices designed for such service is where they use capacitors between each "hot" connection & ground.They will work OK "out of the box" in 240v "Active & Neutral" systems, but the capacitors are usually specified to be well inside their ratings only in the designed service, where they have 120v across them.Unfortunately, if used in Australia, NZ, UK, EU, China, etc, one cap has zero volts across it, & the other, the whole 240V.Caps, being more rugged than we often allege, survive for years, but will eventually succumb.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 24, 2022, 12:44:27 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 22, 2022, 03:44:31 pmAustralian sockets:In truth, however, you don't see much more than 10A sockets everywhere, with the rare appearance of a 15A that's been installed for a specific reason.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2022, 12:59:25 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on December 24, 2022, 12:44:27 pmAre these 10A sockets truly capable of 10A? If yes, it's ample current!You know the European mess with our "Schuko" bullshit, which is all nominally rated to 16A, but this also means it's completely expected they set your house on fire, and manufacturers of equipment just "need to know" to derate the continuous current to below 8A or so (which made EV charging massively slow, too, not much better than the U.S. 120V 15A plugs).All Schukos are usually wiredand fusedat 16A. No one ever admitted the poor design and said "hey, let's change the official rating to 10A and change the fusing accordingly in new installments". So even to this day, new installs use 16A fusing, totally unsuitable for the socket and plug.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 24, 2022, 01:12:12 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 24, 2022, 12:59:25 pmThey certainly are.What I find is that you usually consider the total load on a circuit to avoid a breaker tripping more than the actual load on any one socket.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2022, 01:15:44 pm
content: Is it Australia that has/had a plug with a socket on the back ,no multi way strips needed,

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2022, 02:08:04 pm
content: I have seen similar 3-prong plugs with socket in the US, but not for some time.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2022, 07:39:55 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 24, 2022, 12:59:25 pmIt seems to be an issue here too - I'm not sure how new this is but there are standard 13A sockets... and 13A sockets suitable for charging you EV!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2022, 09:22:30 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on December 24, 2022, 07:39:55 pmI guess I'm not totally surprised by this.You can use a 13 A socket for a 3000 W electric kettle (3000/240 = 12.5) because kettles only run for 2-3 minutes at a go. If you try to put an extended 3000 W load on a 13 A socket, things are likely to get a bit hot and melty.I do recall that you can get 2 kW space heaters that will run for extended periods, but they are going to pull about 8.3 A, which should be OK.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2022, 11:36:14 pm
content: seems more like a money grabbing con considering the british standards require them to handle 14A for a single and 20A for a double (14A + 6A), for 4-8 hours without going above 52c

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2022, 04:40:14 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on December 24, 2022, 12:44:27 pm10A special I have seen used for stage lighting , theatre backstage color disc motors on lighting kit.other 10A ubiquitous. the 15A been the maximum before installing three phase power outlets.the other three 20A , 25A & 32A in single phase, I have never seen used. did not know they existed

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2022, 10:00:06 am
content: I found it interesting when the UK made a snap announcement that Derv/petrol cars will be no longer made from 2040 err 2035 oh now its 2030. Yet they had done very little to put pressure on new build properties to have infrastructure to support the new electric cars that people will end up having. You know, three phase the the housing estates to help cope with the demand, all new houses to be built with charing point or at least a supply in place so one can be fitted at a later date.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2022, 10:14:41 am
content: QuoteQuote from:https://www.pagerpower.com/news/new-law-to-require-new-builds-to-include-electric-car-charging-points/

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2022, 10:24:15 am
content: Ah, I must have missed that. I was speaking to a electrical engineer a few months back and he said that the plans were coming in but the building developers are not keen on it.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2022, 01:03:43 pm
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on December 25, 2022, 10:00:06 amThey already have three phase.Quote from: mendip_discovery on December 25, 2022, 10:24:15 amOf course they're not keen on it, that means spending money.

author: Alti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2022, 06:31:11 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 24, 2022, 12:59:25 pmIt is also worth noting 16A circuit breakers compliant with IEC 60898-1, are not guaranteed to trip at 23.1A loads for indefinitely long (if MCB is what you describe by "fusing"). Also, circuit breakers are selected for protection of the wiring, neither the appliance nor the plug nor socket. Wiring only. You cannot expect this protection, by design, another words.I think the protection of socket/plug and downstream appliance relies on the unlikeliness of overload in this setup. There is either open circuit (no fire), nominal load (no fire) or short circuit (no fire because 16A MCB is suitable).I like the idea of UK plug, polarization and the fact there is a selective overload protection. I wish I could buy a Schuko with standard fuse-holder built-in but that would have required two fuses and twice the power dissipated.