Retired Engineers,How did you learn using oscilloscope in ’80s WITHOUT internet! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: osmax_br
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 09:40:04 pm
content: I recently bought an analog oscilloscope (Goldstar OS9020G 20MHz + 1MHz function generator) and started learning how to use it.Usually, when I ask "how to use it," people say to just Google it or watch YouTube.And indeed, I watched YouTube videos all day and spent hours on them, but there is a pattern here: the videos either use modern high-end DSOs (therefore not explaining manual measurements on analog scopes) or does use analog scopes but cover only basics (volts and time divisions, maybe simple triggering, but no more).Now I have a serious question: hobbyists and engineers in the 70s or 80s (who used similar scopes to mine), how did they learn to use them effectively and professionally without the internet, YouTube, or EEVblog?PS: I mostly work on digital signals (most of my work involves ESP32s, I2C,SPI,screens, etc.). Can this scope help me in any way with my work, or is it just good for learning simple electronics and analog circuits?I’m in my early 20s, and it’s always a good idea to hear advice from those older and more experienced than me.Thank you in advance for your reply!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 09:43:30 pm
content: the user manual

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 09:57:40 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 04, 2025, 09:43:30 pmthat's worth repeating!Quote

author: twospoons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 10:07:26 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 04, 2025, 09:43:30 pmThats right! We used to have these things called books, made from shredded trees and filled with all sorts of useful information. Databooks, manuals, parts catalogues ... usually there'd be an entire wall of shelving dedicated to storing them.Can't say I miss 'em.As for your analog scope - really only useful for repetitive signals that you can reliably trigger on. For digital work with an analog scope, you may find you need to dedicate an i/o pin to generating trigger signals for debugging serial comms . A digital scope is much easier to use for that stuff.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 10:10:54 pm
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 04, 2025, 09:40:04 pmI did not have the luxury of a manual with my first scope and no one to teach me. Like any kid, I would use the local library. I also made use of the local Radio Shack where I bought this book (which I still have).https://archive.org/details/rsrgto

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 10:25:44 pm
content: QuoteStab random buttons and twiddle random knobs to see what happens

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 10:39:39 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 04, 2025, 10:10:54 pmI had that book. Another one that I think went into more depth was this one:https://archive.org/details/understandingusi0000hall.

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 10:42:59 pm
content: Some of these old manuals, explained everything, including how and why it all works. If I wasn't such a fool, I'd read more of the Tektronix manual I got with a used scope. I'm not an EE, but I remember the 1st day I turned on my CRT scope, and looked at the 60Hz hum on my finger. But I wasn't that deep into electronics back then, so it was a while before I did anything useful with it.But I watched lots of video's of people using scopes, like Dave of EEVblog, and so far at least I haven't damaged anything.

author: richnormand
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 11:43:40 pm
content: "How did you learn using oscilloscope in ’80s WITHOUT internet!"With something that does not require batteries and when you have many of them provides a good thermal isolation when propped against the wall on shelves in the basement where your bench resides.Books.PS:And if you do want to go back to consult them you don't find out the website with the info has disappeared.PS2:Search for Tektronix's "How to use and repair oscilloscopes". It is for analog scopes but once you understand the principles the transition to modern digital scopes is much easier.Cheers.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 11:49:56 pm
content: Books, magazines, manuals, but also being taught by older, more experienced colleagues.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 11:56:10 pm
content: there is also electronics lab in local college or high school when a 2 year degree or less, could get you a good job, supposedly.the electrical engineering technologies tract (not EE)It's interesting how they basically get rid of as much lab learning as possible, but also don't have effective/respectable programs for lab workers that have to use equipment, and you get clueless theoreticians trying to do stuffThe requirement was not wished out of existenceThere is a few good stargate episodes with societies like that, where they basically forgot how to use their infrastructure and technology after it became reliable/good enough lol. A long time ago I thought it was preposterous, now I am not so sure.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 12:08:42 am
content: Tektronix and HP published application notes and magazine articles describing how to conduct various measurements using their test instruments.As for myself, by the time I had a real oscilloscope, a used Tektronix 545 produced before I was born, I was able to figure it out in short order.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 12:20:31 am
content: learned in 1960s at work.Was an enormus Tek 545 tube scope.Took perhaps 1/2 hr.VIDEO IS NOT LEARNINGj

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 12:41:13 am
content: Basic operation - school pysics lab.First quality scope - an HP1740 at work. Delayed timebase was a revelation.Then look at each knob or switch in turn, read the manual, understand what it does and what it's useful for. If you can't make it out, google or ask here. Go to one of the manual repositories and look up classic scopes like the tek465. These have superb manuals that will explain it properly. Especially understand the trigger in both normal and auto modes.twospoons is right, but you can learn a lot about a microprocessor (especially an old one with external rom and ram) by putting a square wave on the reset pin. then the first few bus cycles out of reset are repeated fast enough to unpack with your analogue oscilloscope.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 12:43:26 am
content: I grew up in the days "Before Internet", and there were plenty of other information sources around. Apart from libraries and books as mentioned above, magazines were a really big thing. Technical and hobby magazines had product reviews, tutorials and teaching material, projects to build, industry news, new product announcements, adverts for suppliers and mail order houses, and blogs instead of vlogs. Basically, everything YouTube has and more.There were also newsletters you could subscribe to, that would have "secret" information available only to the select few.So to answer the specific question of "how to use a scope", then apart from the user manual, you can guarantee electronics magazines would periodically have tutorial articles on how to use an oscilloscope.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 01:11:28 am
content: Quote from: artag on February 05, 2025, 12:41:13 amMany tests, microprocessor or otherwise, can be made repetitive. That'sbeneficialin many ways, e.g. it goes hand-in-hand with implementing a design incrementally. That's alsonecessaryfor unit and regression tests (yes those do exist in analogue and digital systems!).Signal integrity tests do not require repetitive signals - eye diagrams are more than sufficient, and preferable in some respects.There are some tests that are inherently single-shot, e.g. some subtle PSU failures, or recording a nuclear explosion. I've encountered the former but not the latterSuch one-off events require storage scopes, preferably digitising scopes.Capturing bus traffic and digital signals is best done with a digital signal tool.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 01:43:04 am
content: If the question is how can I learn to use my Goldstar oscilloscope when I don't have the manual there are several possibilities.1. Libraries or on line repositories may have a general book on lab instrument operation.2. Look for manuals for analog oscilloscopes with similar specifications. While a Goldstar manual may not be available, Tek and HP had low end scopes and manuals for those are generally available3. Find a local maker space or radio club and look for someone willing to coach you.4. Post specific questions on this forum. I don't know your knowledge level, and don't want to insult you, but even questions like "The trigger source knob has three options. What do they do?" will usually get answered. If your questions are more advanced and subtle you will still get help. But a general "How do I work an analog scope" won't be particularly effective.5. The previously suggested poke buttons until you find something that works. This approach will let you learn quickly what knobs with labels like "Focus" and "Intensity" do.Obviously 3. & 4. are just the same thing in different mediums. My personal education on oscilloscopes involved all four of these.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 02:27:35 am
content: I see many of the points I mentioned in the other thread have been repeated here. Good.One starting point - which I think will cover all your requirements - ishttps://w140.com/tekwiki/images/f/f1/070-8690-01.pdf"XYZs of Analog and Digital Oscilloscopes" 74 pages 1993. That's from a time when digitising scopes still had significant limitations, so a good analogue scope was probably better for most purposes.The Tek "Concepts" series is good, but many of the documents will be too detailed for you for quite a while!https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/Concepts_Series

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 03:00:18 am
content: Analog scopes had two secret features that would allow you to troubleshoot a traceless scope.-The first one was the “triggered” light. It has to be lit. If not lit, set the trigger source to “AC LINE”, the light will lit and you should now see a trace. If it is too faint increase the “brightness” and/or set the timebase to 1 or 2 msec/div.-The second feature is the “beam find”. Sometimes the traces are too far up or down, and outside of the viewing area. The beam find compresses the traces, and you may then adjust the vertical and horizontal position controls such that the traces cluster towards the middle of the screen.

author: rdenney
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 03:06:32 am
content: A mentor.Rick “look for a local amateur radio club” Denney

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 03:29:27 am
content: The greybeards of today learned from the greybeards of yesteryear.It's greybeards all the way down.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 04:05:32 am
content: How about w2aew's video in the Sticky area of this forum:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/oscilloscope-training-class-(long)/I just turned knobs and dials until I saw what I wanted. Low voltages, of course.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 05:51:53 am
content: When I was about 9 years old, my father bought an oscilloscope from a neighbor. He showed me how to measure voltage on it, it take about 5 minutes and as far as I remember, I don't remember any difficulties with learning the oscilloscope, there was no Internet then, all that was there was a paper instruction in the form of a small book. Later I studied the capabilities of the oscilloscope more deep when I was debugging my homemade amateur toys circuits.As far as I remember, everything happened intuitively and I don’t remember any difficulties with learning the oscilloscope at all. In fact, I never studied it purposefully, I just used it to solve my amateur radio tasks.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 08:05:16 am
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on February 05, 2025, 03:00:18 amGood point. If you followed CatalineWow's #5 (which is perfectly reasonable) yoiu might get in a state where there is no trace. Basic things that con lose a trace are lkack of trigger, lack of brightness, being off-screen. You may need to find a 'set to normal' procedure for your scope.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 08:35:14 am
content: Also remember (affordable) scopes were much,much simpler back then - if you were lucky they had trigger delay - that's as sophisticated as things got for mere mortals.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 09:43:06 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on February 05, 2025, 03:29:27 amNope.Back then information was, as the OP realises, very limited and difficult to obtain. It often involved finding a book in the local library and then waiting several weeks until it became available. The consequence was that the key skill was to learn how tofindinformation and then repeatedly read it toextract every drop. That encouraged thought and understanding.Now we have hoses, each of which contains a few drops of nourishment. Consequently the key skill is the opposite, to learn how tospeedily ignoremost of the rubbish.Written material makes that easy: I can speed read at maybe 1000wpm to determine if it is worth reading it. Videos are dreadful, 60wpm would be fast, and there are too many ums, ahs, and pauses and talking heads that don't need moving pictures.A corollary is that old videos can sometimes be much better than new ones; it took noticeable time and effort to create, manufacture and distribute them. Hence they were carefully planned and concentrated, something that is unknown to almost all yoootoob video creator. Classic example is the PACE "how to solder" series, which carefully shows how and way soldering works and fails.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 09:44:26 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 05, 2025, 08:35:14 amYes.For a beginner, simple => good.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 09:53:33 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 05, 2025, 08:35:14 amProbably this. I really don't recall having to "learn" how to use a scope when starting to use them during my apprenticeship and subsequent work (1979-). But by the time we got that far we'd had a couple of years college and been through production, assembly etc. Started out with the big Tek valve jobs (545? Can't remember) going up to the 7000 series mainframes. The learning curve was probably a mix of messing about and mentoring.

author: PGPG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 10:50:34 am
content: Quote from: radiolistener on February 05, 2025, 05:51:53 amI also don't remember any difficulties with learning the oscilloscope. They were simple those time. The oldest oscilloscopes had a synchronized time base and capturing a stable image was more difficult than in the newer ones with a triggered time base.Unfortunately I didn't had any oscilloscope so I had to do all my radio tasks without it. I used to make tools to help me with it. Starting from lab power supply through HF generators with 1kHz AM and FM modulations to frequency counter. First oscilloscope I had was one made by me (1 channel, 5MHz, triggered time base, X-axis and Z-axis inputs) so I know function of each knob or switch even before it got this functionNowadays it is much more complicated. No matter how many times I read the instruction, or how good a cheat sheet I make, when I turn on the oscilloscope after a long break, I have no idea which button to press to get to the function I need.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 10:57:04 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 05, 2025, 09:43:06 amwho do you think wrote the books! I'm betting there was some grey in those book authors beards...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 11:41:07 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on February 05, 2025, 10:57:04 amSince you didn't mention books, I assumed you meant face-to-face learning. Face-to-face learning isn't, of course, very scalable.Back then travel and electronic communication was expensive and difficult. You needed an operator to make a long-distance connection, transatlantic phone calls had to be booked in advance stating both start time and duration, and couldn't be afforded by mere mortals.Hence most communication was written (books, magazines, articles, app notes), and not in person.

author: Simmed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 11:56:40 am
content: imagine x years after you were bornyou discover the pictures onscreen are optical tricksthey are actually sweeping beams of electrons

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 12:26:21 pm
content: We bought an oscilloscope, then put it on a shelf for 20 years while waiting for Youtube to be invented.I'm currently waiting for Tryginz to be invented so I can finally use the time distort generator I bought in 1987.

author: CaptDon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 02:25:56 pm
content: My O'scope learning started in 7th and 8th grade when a ham radio friend lent me an OS-8 Navy scope. I hooked it up to all kinds of stuff, my guitar, a microphone, a speaker acting as a microphone / seismic sensor, the audio output of a radio looking at voice and music. It was a recurrent trace scope and so had its limitations. During the summer between my 8th and 9th grade years a company named IOCOM installed a television over-the-air monitoring device. It monitored the quality and presence of network commercials to prove that the local outlets weren't 'double dipping'. The installing technician was using a Tektronix 453 and I was blown away by what a 'triggered sweep' scope could do above and beyond what a recurrent sweep scope could do. The 60MHz bandwidth of the 453 blew the doors off of the OS-8 bandwidth. In 10th grade I bought a monster of a military triggered sweep scope. It was an HP design but built by Hickok. I started building things with 7400 series logic and also troubleshooting and repairing C.B. sets for the local 'Coffee Break C.B. crowd'. My experience was 100% 'Learn by doing' however, when I finally bought my own Tek 453 the manual described all of the how's and why's of making measurements with the 453. I now have a TDS644B with manual and it includes instructions on all of the new math features of a digital storage scope like FFT and algebraic math functions creating the 'math' trace.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 04:21:16 pm
content: The thing about oscilloscope prowess which always puzzled me is that some people never understand how delayed sweep works, or how to use it, no matter what explanation is given.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 05:41:59 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 05, 2025, 04:21:16 pmIf that is anything other than "rare", I'm unpleasantly surprised. I wonder if such people are capable of making better use of (comparatively much more complex) digitising scopes.If they ever had to look at the timing relationship between signals occurring "long" after the main trigger, I don't see how they could avoid delayed sweep.Perhaps they were always looking a sine/triangle/square waves, and never had to zoom in on something that occurred a while after the main trigger.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 05:53:41 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 05, 2025, 05:41:59 pmI had no trouble understanding the concept of delayed sweep. But for a long time wondered why anyone would want it. The systems I was working on had so much noise and jitter that getting a useful view was effectively impossible. Later, when working on systems that had better timing and less noise it really was useful.That was another lesson from "real" world engineering. Sometimes you just have to live with less than ideal signals.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 06:01:38 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 05, 2025, 04:21:16 pmI've run into repair-type techs that didn't actually understand holdoff even though they used it regularly. They were old enough to remember the vertical hold adjustment on old television sets so I guess they'd just dial it in until the picture was steady just like the TV. It didn't stop them from effectively (to a point) using the scope.

author: osmax_br
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 06:31:37 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 05, 2025, 01:43:04 amTrueHowever my question is not how to use oscilloscope, like what people mentioned above , just read the manual and play around and you will figure it out your self , and while this is true since I did really learn how to use it by watching yt vids and playing around with the instrument, and I can view all different wave forms from the analog func gen , I CANNOT say in anyway that I am an expert or that I know how to use a one EFFECTIVELY and PROFESSIONALLY, every moron can sit behind a driving wheel in a car , but does that mean that everyone can drive ?Another example , many people can drive , but how many people can drift using the same car? , probably very low

author: osmax_br
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 06:43:27 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 04, 2025, 09:43:30 pmI feel dumb , I read it once I brought the scope , and didn't understand a thing , had to watch a yootoob vid to understand what's happening, then returned to the manualBut I can say that a goldstar (lg) entry level oscilloscope manual wouldn't be wrote like a Tektronix one (I hope I right)But as I mentioned in the reply above , my question isn't how to view a simple sine wave , you could do that by simply playing with knobs for some time and eventually you will figure it out , but I dont call that a professional or good use of the scope , every one can drive a car , but can everyone drift in a car ?My question is about techniques, workarounds , ways to use the oscilloscope that requires some experience, something that's not just written in the manual casuallyReading a manual is just reading a book about driving a car , reading it doesn't mean you are a good driverNowadays kids -me included- are spoiled , everytime I ask them they tell me just buy a DSO or watch a useless YouTube vid , so I figured out asking someone older with more experience and most importantly DIDN'T have YouTube back then , so they had to learn everything from some where else

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 06:43:43 pm
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 05, 2025, 06:31:37 pmWe used to have these things that would come in the mail if you subscribed or you could buy them in retail shops called bookstores. They were called magazines, they were sort of like printed web pages and you'd have articles on how to do stuff, reviews of products and, of course, advertisements. Back then the ads were something to look for and not an annoyance. Anyhow, there would be articles on how to use oscilloscopes and sometimes even stuff on how to build your own oscilloscope.QuoteA good manual would go into much of that and would be worth reading even if you didn't have that oscilloscope. Informational bulletins, papers and videos from companies like Tektronix were very helpful. Beyond that, learning from someone more experienced or just thinking about it would be what comes next. Most scope users never became "scope wizards" but rather got adept at using it for specific purposes. There's quite a lot to know if you want to be a scope and probing guru.

author: osmax_br
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 06:53:30 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on February 05, 2025, 03:00:18 amThanks for the advice , this is the kind of information you don't get by wasting hours on some YouTube tutorials, you gotta ask someone who spent their lives using an analog scopeFor the 2nd adivce , I did see a similar button on analog Tektronix scopes on yt vids , however sadly mine doesn't have a find beam button+ The scope flickers at lower frequencies, I saw someone using an "alt button" to reduce it (correct me if I am wrong) , but my scope doesn't have an "alt" or "chop" button , do you know a way to reduce the flickerAnd sorry for the dumb question

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 07:07:26 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 05, 2025, 05:53:41 pmThe quality of the trigger circuit is a frequently overlooked aspect of the quality of a scope.Certainly it is never included in the the all-too-common yootoob "reviews" where a voice opens a box, plugs it in, exclaims "it is working and is good because I can see a pretty display. Goodbye"

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 07:08:26 pm
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 05, 2025, 06:53:30 pmNot a dumb question, just one you have to think about. If you are looking at a low frequency, you are using a slower sweep rate. Take the sweep rate (ms/div) and multiply it by the number of divisions, that's how long it takes for the entire sweep. Assuming the scope can reset and retrigger fast enough that the delay is negligible, you still can only have 1/(sweep time) traces displayed per second. So lets say you are looking at a 60Hz signal using 10ms/div and you have 10 divisions. That gives you about 6 cycles displayed and a 100ms total sweep time. That means you'll get 9 to 10 sweeps per second displayed. Keep in mind that only things that allows you to even see the moving dot as a "trace" are the persistence of the screen phosphor and the persistence of your vision, although the latter probably isn't helpful here. A typical green phospor on a general-purpose scope might have an effective persistence of 20-50ms depending on lighting, intensity, etc. So at 100ms/sweep, there's going to be dark time between sweeps and you will see that as flicker.There's not much you can do to change the persistence of a particular scope other than adjust intensity and ambient lighting levels. Flicker at LF is baked in. Different scopes do vary, some have brighter phosphors with less persistence and are suitable for higher frequencies. Then there are "bright eye" and analog storage variants, it's a whole field of its own.EDIT: I looked at a picture of your particular scope and I notice that it has a vertical mode selector with CH1/CH2/DUAL/ADD. I don't see an ALT or VERT mode on the trigger. I would suspect that the DUAL mode is similar to what I've seen on some other scopes where they don't give you an ALT/CHOP option and just select the mode automatically depending on the sweep rate you select. IDK what the trigger will do in the DUAL mode on yours, I suppose it's worth reading the manual on that. I'd be surprised but not shocked if there simply wasn't an ALT trigger mode but it would be equally odd if you couldn't deselect the ALT trigger mode and still display both channels. Hmmmm.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 07:11:33 pm
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 05, 2025, 06:31:37 pmWell, before going solo at 14yo, people have to demonstrate they can reliably do the equivalent in a glider, and recover before they hit the deckIt is also a recognised technique for descendingfast, at about 100ft/s.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 07:23:28 pm
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 05, 2025, 06:53:30 pmThat's not a dumb question.The answer depends on why it is flickering.If the sweep speed is slow, (say 10ms/div or slower) then the problem is the phosphor's persistence is short. There are different phosphors, but all are a compromise, and changing the CRT is not practical ;}If the trigger is much less frequent than the time taken for the trace to cross the screen, then the same applies.There's a more subtle possibility with the "holdoff" control; that is designed to cause too frequent triggers to be ignored. That is rarely useful nowadays, so just leave the holdoff control on minimum.If you are looking at two inputs then there are two mechanisms used to multiplex the two inputs onto the single electron beam. For slow sweeps use "chop", which rapidly switches between the two inputs. For fast sweeps use "alt" (alternate), which shows one input for the first sweep and the other input for the next sweep.That raises the question of how your scope multiplexes both inputs onto one beam. There are dual beam (cf channel) scopes and I have one, but they are rare and that's the only one I have come across.

author: BILLPOD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 07:41:11 pm
content: Good Morning Osmax_br, When I was in my early 40's, (early 1980s), I decided to enroll in an 'Electrical Technology' 2 year Associates Degree program at a local community college. I didn't have time to attend full time, so I took the required courses one at a time, as I had a full-time job, house and family. Many of the courses involved lab work, and the labs had all the equipment necessary as required by the textbooks. However, the labs didn't have enough equipment for all the students, so the oscilloscopes had to be shared by 4 or 5 students. I didn't get enough hands on experience to completely understand the operation of the scopes, so I got a loan and purchased my own scope for home. Oscilloscopes were VERY expensive back then. I wound up getting a 100Mhz Hitachi analog scope, (digitals weren't around yet). The owner's manual that came with the scope was not much help, as it was written in the worst Chinglish that you can imagine, and the internet wasn't around yet. So I had to learn by going through the lab experiments using the little scope knowledge I could harvest from the labs at school. I still have that analog scope, along with a Digital Storage Oscilloscope that I got a few years ago. The digital scope is so much easier to operate, (and a lot cheaper than the Analogs back then). So that is my long winded story.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 08:04:32 pm
content: When I was a teaching assistant for introductory circuits labs at a large public university (early-mid 1990s), it was clear that none of my students knew how to use an oscilloscope, so I hope / presume that’s where many of them got started.(The “internet” was still largely text-based at the time. Not sure if there was a Usenet group for test equipment)

author: osmax_br
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 08:11:36 pm
content: Quote from: BILLPOD on February 05, 2025, 07:41:11 pmThanks for sharing your experience100mhz oscilloscope in 80s , it seems you bought a state of the art scope back then, 100mhz is good nowadays, and I think 40 years ago it was something people dreamed about itI think you could've bought something like 20mhz for way less money , but you were really serious about getting a scope since you got a loanHope it is still functional after all these yearsAnd actually my grandfather is an electrical engineer, who graduated in the 50s and bought -my currently owned scope- in the late 80sHe told me he spent quite a lot of money (he could've bought a car with that money) , oscilloscopes back then were very rare since we lived in a Soviet style county where oscilloscope were the most luxurious thing an engineer can buyHe was very content seeing his old scope being brought back to life

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 08:44:30 pm
content: The first 100 MHz analog CRO that I used was a Tektronix 465 portable two-channel unit, in our grad-school lab back in 1974.Before that, I could borrow a Tektronix 585 vacuum-tube unit: it was introduced in 1959 and was also rated for 100 MHz.There was progress before 1980.When I started grad school, I was popular as a lab partner because I knew how to trigger an oscilloscope.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 11:02:07 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 05, 2025, 05:53:41 pmYou may have demonstrated my point. Most oscilloscopes which supported delayed sweep also had a dedicated trigger for the delayed timebase, so the delayed sweep could be displayed with no jitter from irregular signals by triggering after the delay. Delayed sweep oscilloscopes use this to display a specific line of a TV field or frame without adding jitter from the delay time itself, which could be 20,000 or 50,000 to 1, but it works to stabilize any waveform.Modern DSOs tend to lack this feature so cannot display an offset (?) acquisition without jitter in real time. Their instruction manual has to be examined very carefully to see if it is supported, because sometimes they confusingly reuse old terms.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 11:23:37 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 05, 2025, 11:02:07 pmWorks for highly repetitive signals like TV frames. Not so much for irregular glitches on an irregular signal. Should work on at least some communications data streams even without the binary word triggers you can use with a DSO.But Indeed this is the kind of use case lore that can help a learner.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 10:17:45 am
content: Without trying to derail this thread. The OP might be interested in the more difficult task of how we found component data back then, without the internet (I suggest any further discussion happens there)...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/question-for-older-engineers-how-did-you-get-info/

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 10:25:14 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 05, 2025, 11:23:37 pmFor comms streams my strategy is usually:use a scope to give a solid indication of the receivedanaloguesignal's integrity, usually based on eye diagrams. At that point you know the receiver should interpret thedigitalsignal correctlyuse a logic analyser, protocol analyser or printf() to capture and analyse the digital signalAny scope feature that detracts from signal integrity is unwelcome.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 11:54:56 am
content: I got my first scope when I was 14. It was a 1950's 1Mhz!! Cossor valve job and the controls seemed self evident. I learned how to use it just by playing around.Scopes we not feature packed. The controls were basic but they do exactly the same thing as they do on a modern scope. I learned how to use a scope more formally in school physics classes. You cant get a real education from the internet.We all lived happily without the internet. We talked to flesh and blood beings not random bloggers. We went to component shops and chatted to fellow solder-mainiacs.Hobby magazines we the main source of learning. Electronics books were very off-putting and unhelpful for the neophyte engineer. Reams of mathmatical analysis, no menton of how to design circuits at all. H&H "The art of electronics" was a revalation to all

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 11:59:42 am
content: You're so right.Videos are for laughing at cats.We need to learn from face to face enounters and burned fingers.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 12:23:33 pm
content: Quote from: Terry Bites on February 06, 2025, 11:59:42 amWhois so right?It makes life easier for other people if you use the "Quote" button next to every post.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 03:09:09 pm
content: Let’s not forget the reader service cards that were included on electronic magazines, where one could find additional information about products mentioned in the magazine.In those pre-internet days, it would literally take a couple of months to receive a reply, more so if one lived outside the US. But when it finally arrived, it would be similar to receive a long-desired Christmas present!Some companies like Motorola Semi would be very generous and give away scores of app notes, I would read them over and over.Other companies would reply that you could purchase their Applications and Data books, National, Fairchild and RCA being prime examples. Expensive, but worth every drop of printed ink.I still have them, I cherish them too much. Shown a pair of well worn books from the mid 1970s.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 03:20:56 pm
content: Literally falling to pieces, well worn books

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 04:06:40 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on February 06, 2025, 03:09:09 pmIlovedreader service cards! It was hard not to circle every single number

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 04:20:50 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on February 06, 2025, 04:06:40 pmAs a smart-aleck kid, I did circle every number, but the system rejected the entire card.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 06:09:34 pm
content: sugggest to get the excellent Tektronix Circuit Consepts books, all about scopes their circuits, theory and use.https://www.davmar.org/concepts.htmlStill have the original printed books from 1980s!The horozontal sweep book has exactly for instance the delayed and delaying sweep use.Jon

author: lokin4areason
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 06:42:29 pm
content: like any new toy , you have to tinker with it .press a button here and there and see at how it would reactif you want to go to the next step , manual ( if one was provided with the device ) or hit the library . and hope that they have something on it or something similarthan i would see if they had any hobby group(s) to join . that can be a wealth of information there . heck , that would have more to it than a manual or book would , imo

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 07:02:00 pm
content: I found what an oscilloscope was when I was about 12, from books in the library. Then other books taught me how I could design one. Then I designed and built one using a war surplus CRT, and a bunch of valves. There used to be numerous of sources of military surplus and new components in shops around Tottenham Court Rd, Edgware Rd, and Lisle St in London. I formed a chassis from sheet aluminium, with all the valve holders set into holes in the sheet, and hand wired point to point underneath. It was crude, and the bandwidth was below a MHz, but it was a good start. I seem to remember it taking me a while to sort out the horizontal sweep, to get it reasonably linear. The inputs were just AC coupled. With valves it would have added quite a bit of complexity to produce a DC coupled design.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 07:22:20 pm
content: at theses time it was really RTFM loll, that's how i mostly learned

author: BlownUpCapacitor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 07:57:29 pm
content: Even now, whenever I buy a new piece of equipment with new functions, I don't usually read the manual. Just press random buttons, turn different knobs, make note of what happens. It's actually more fun than just RTFMing.However, RTFMing is still very useful. For a long time I never knew I could adjust the CH2 delay on my Tek 2465. Never knew it was even a function!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 09:22:43 pm
content: Quote from: BlownUpCapacitor on February 10, 2025, 07:57:29 pmMore than fun: it is satisfying since then you can use the equipment in ways the designers never imagined

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 09:37:45 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 10, 2025, 07:02:00 pmI think war surplus CRTs were a very important source for the generation before me. I think I'm old but Lisle Street was before my time. I do remember a few war surplus places in Edgware Rd but before long it was just hi-fi, then laptops and now phones.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 09:40:02 pm
content: I love a good manual. I've sometimes paid more for the manual than for the instrument.But these are the HP manuals of the 60s,70s,80s - not today's useless manuals that are lucky to contain a picture of the knobs.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 10:11:11 pm
content: I learned at high school. We had electronics lab that included oscilloscopes and we learned how to use them to perform various experiments, as well as soldering, and theory of analog and and digital circuits.The inputs of those scope has bananas and we used regular bananas and alligator wires to connect them.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 02:27:01 am
content: If I recall correctly, Telequipment was a Tektronix subsidiary, making low cost scopes for the education and service markets.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 03:30:19 am
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on February 11, 2025, 02:27:01 amSometimes I entertain the idea of getting a used one from ebay for the nostalgic values.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 03:48:51 am
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on February 11, 2025, 02:27:01 amTelequipment was a British oscilloscope company.Tektronix acquired them in 1966 and sold them in the US at the low-price end of the market.

author: indeterminate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 06:35:32 am
content: In AUS it was BWD kithttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BWD_ElectronicsThea where pretty basic and it did nor take long in a classroom or just reading the manual to get the jist of how to drive itManuals back then where very comprehensive.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 08:20:04 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on February 04, 2025, 11:49:56 pmThe latter was the most important aspect.Very few Techs & EEs had their own, personal oscilloscope back in the day, as they were expensive, so we learnt how to use them by using them at work, to do stuff associated with our jobs, learning firstly by leaning over the shoulder of experienced colleagues, then performing the same tests under their supervision.Also, if you played with one of the 'scopes during "down time" you weren't chastised by a micro-manager.YouTube videosarea good resource these days but you need to be selective.Dave, of course, is always good value, but I would also strongly recommend W2AEW---Alan talks to you as if you were a visiting friend in his hamshack/lab, who he is showing how to do various things. He is very technically sound.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 10:02:49 am
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 05, 2025, 06:53:30 pmThe "alt" & "chop" functions are used to display two channels using a single beam Cathode ray tube.At higher frequencies "alt", as the name suggests, displays one complete sweep displaying say, channel "A" followed by a complete sweep displaying channel "B".This works well for high frequencies (short time/div), but not so well for low frequencies as the two channels alternate at half the rate of the displayed wave forms, causing flicker.For these, "chop" is used, where the two channels are sampled at a higher frequency, each sample displayed in turn, so the eye doesn't see flicker."Chop" doesn't work well at high frequencies as there is a limit too how fast the sampling can happen, so it causes artifacts similar to"aliasing" on DSOs.

author: osmax_br
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 10:43:40 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 11, 2025, 10:02:49 amOh Thanks , I thought that my oscilloscope has only chop , because I read the circuit diagram and there was a "chop gen" board so I stupidly thought that it has only chopReading the manual "again" and I found out that it does the switching automatically

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 11:26:32 am
content: Quote from: zapta on February 11, 2025, 03:30:19 amI have a three channeldual beamTelequipment DM63 storage scope I ought to sell. Hence if you only use two channels, you don't need to use alt/chop modes. I've replaced a few PSU caps, but that's all.Having had to use analogue storage scopes because they were the best, I don't really like them. However, this one is almost pleasant to use

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 12:55:04 pm
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 11, 2025, 10:46:30 amYour questions above are answered in your separate thread (please don't) here...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/calibrating-analog-scope-with-minimal-equipment-only-built-in-generator/

author: osmax_br
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 01:07:31 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on February 11, 2025, 12:55:04 pmGot it boss , sorry for the inconvenience I madeI am kinda new to the forums, sorry

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 08:08:07 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 11, 2025, 03:48:51 amThere was quite a bit of two and fro between the Telequipment and Tektronix product lines, with some things sold under both names. I think Tektronix bought Telequipment to flesh out their product line. Tektronix was a bit weak on low end products, and Telequipment made good quality but modest performance scopes. There was very little conflict in the purchase.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 08:16:02 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 11, 2025, 08:08:07 pmApparently bd139's mother worked at Telequipment, and is not complementaryhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/oscilloscope-used-in-thunderbirds-episode/msg1766429/#msg1766429

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 08:22:04 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 11, 2025, 08:16:02 pmIts hard to feel good about being in Hoddesdon.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 08:29:27 pm
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 11, 2025, 01:07:31 pmNo harm done in this case, nobody had started duplicating each others' replies.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 09:22:47 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 11, 2025, 08:22:04 pmNever been there, but it sounds like Bracknell: the best bit is that there are many fast road out of there..

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 09:28:29 pm
content: >> I recently bought an analog oscilloscope (Goldstar OS9020G 20MHz + 1MHz function generator) and started learning how to use it.This was literally the very model of my first oscilloscope. I bought it with my own money in 1989 or 1990, when I was a teenager. I believe I paid about $400 for in in 1989 dollars, which is a princely sum for a teenager. I learned to use it from the manual, and from just playing with it. I started out doing lissajous patterns with the unit in XY mode and with the line-level outputs of my stereo. I also enjoyed learning about the NTSC waveform from the NTSC output of my VCR. It had special triggers for tv vertical and horizontal sync, so you could examine a line or a whole field.I also just probed around various electronics. I actually had a lot of fun with it, and when I got to engineering school I was much less afraid of oscilloscopes than my fellow students.

author: osmax_br
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 09:38:48 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on February 11, 2025, 09:28:29 pmNiceee , I was looking for someone like youDo you remember the release date of this scope , like 1988?And was it the entry model in goldstar's product lineAlso , I know that goldstar was then named lg and made one or two scopes under lg name and then just disappeared , did they sell the department to another company that changed the name , or they just closed itBecause I can't find any presence online for new lg or goldstar DSOs

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 09:48:10 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 11, 2025, 08:22:04 pmI was going to say at least Cirkit was based there, but then I remembered it was actually down the road in Broxbourne. As you were...Quote from: tggzzz on February 11, 2025, 09:22:47 pmHaving lived and worked there for a while, I concur.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 09:51:55 pm
content: LG was previously called Lucky Goldstar. Speaks of Chinese interpretation of names which would appeal to western consumers. 'Lucky' apparently came from a merger with Lucky Chemical Co .. not a name to inspire confidence. But they're still around as LG in consumer electronics and even lithium batteries. I don't know of them in the test equipment field but they may be there, perhaps only in local (to them) markets.https://www.lg.comhttps://www.radiomuseum.org/dsp_hersteller_detail.cfm?Company_Id=7359

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 10:04:30 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 11, 2025, 09:22:47 pmIts different. Hoddesdon is a more mature area. That means the roads are clogged up.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2025, 06:02:55 pm
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 11, 2025, 09:38:48 pmI believe they had another model without the built-in generator (the "G" in the name). I don't remember if they had a whole lineup. I suspect that they did not. I do remember the branding on the scope was "Goldstar", not "Luck Goldstar" or "LG". I think the company was always Lucky Goldstar, but the way they did business in the US was as Goldstar. They were in the TV business that way, for example. I don't know if they ever did DSO's, but I've never heard of that.

author: Messtechniker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2025, 06:50:55 pm
content: In the good old days it was standard practice to explain all - and I mean really all - functions of the instrument in detail function by function.As the years went by, this degraded step by step for cost reasons, ending today with - often even preliminary - notes providing at best very basic or no relevant information at all.

author: osmax_br
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2025, 07:26:33 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on February 21, 2025, 06:02:55 pmYes, there is a model without the function gen , os9020AI dug deep into magazines archive to see whether I could find any pricing for the scope , and surely I found one , march 1997 popular electronics , 500$ bucksHowever , I still couldn't find the original production date , or the original MSRP , since the "500$" price point is after being in production for quite a time , there was a newer 100 MHz version of it by goldstar so they reduced the price of it , + the fact that mine was purchased at least in the early 1990sI will send the page photo tomorrow

author: osmax_br
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2025, 07:31:04 pm
content: Quote from: Messtechniker on February 21, 2025, 06:50:55 pmYeah , I seeI thought that the manuals are useless since all new instruments are from china with a one page -useless- manualNice instrument collection btw

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2025, 07:43:31 pm
content: Quote from: artag on February 11, 2025, 09:51:55 pmWhen we were working with LG in the early 90s, they couldn't decide what they wanted to be called. One week it was Goldstar, then LG, then Goldstar again. I think they'd figured out that Lucky Goldstar didn't have quite the right feel for a prestige company in English speaking countries. They finally settled on LG. The odd feel of the name Lucky, which you'll find in lots of East Asian business names, is an example of how translation is a very imprecise tool. Lucky is probably the closest English word the the Hanzi character in its Chinese reading, and I assume in its Korean reading too. However, if has an odd feeling in English. However, its really no different than calling your company something like Prestige, which to some sounds pretentious, but is common practice.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2025, 08:56:40 pm
content: Funny thing; my landlord maintains his Tektronix 465 currently.I started Qantel job 1978, and first requirement by Boss/Trainer to read through the whole, massive manual.It really does get to be a skill, when doing some complicated trigger, etc.My job was to find and repair the Z-80 based logic PC board. Running a Teletype line printer on serial bus UARTS.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2025, 09:58:37 pm
content: Quote from: Messtechniker on February 21, 2025, 06:50:55 pmI think that depends on the company. Thebasicmanual for our FSW spectrum analyzer is 1615 pages long. It is very, very rare that I come across something in one of our instruments that is not very thoroughly explained in the manual.Even in these "modern" times, I still make it a point to read the manual cover-to-cover whenever I start using a new instrument.That said, I recently received a oscilloscope "clock" demo board that literally had no documentation - nothing in the package, nothing on the web, even asked here and got nothing. I had to do a fair bit of experimenting before I figured out how to make it work. So I do feel your pain

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2025, 12:28:06 am
content: Quote from: RJSV on February 21, 2025, 08:56:40 pmI occasionally read through my old Tektronix manuals, application notes, and product catalogs just for the fun of it.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2025, 03:09:28 am
content: Quote from: RJSV on February 21, 2025, 08:56:40 pmSo do I.I learned by buying and old tube scope when I was 14. I cannot remember who made it, but it worked fairly well and had things like X, Y and Z inputs. Frigged around with that for a couple years, then got a summer job at a place that had a "real" oscilloscope - again, can't remember the make. I don't remember any manuals, but they may have been there. A little later I built my own Heathkit.Even today I usually just begin to play with any new equipment I get.That's what I now call "fun"!

author: osmax_br
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2025, 08:42:02 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on February 21, 2025, 09:58:37 pmOf course if you are buying an equipment worth tens of thousands of dollars you would get 1500 pages manual , you get what you are paying for , these equipment are for professionals, an ordinary person or a hobbiest wouldn't buy the state of the art R&S spectrum analyzerIf I buy a piece of equipment that costs this amount of money and came without a well-written manual , I would think that the company customer support is horrible and I wouldn't buy from that company (sadly, I'm not buying this sort of equipment any time soon)What people are trying to say that the nonprofessional/hobbiest grade equipment doesn't have a useful manual nowadays , even some 500-800$ oscilloscopes (mainly from china) doesn't come with a useful manual , while back in the day even entry level oscilloscopes had excellent manuals (I know the fact that analog oscilloscopes were more expensive back then than DSOs nowadays, but it is not an excuse to not write a good manual for you entry level instrument)

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2025, 09:23:41 pm
content: Really? I don't see a problem.My $30 DMM has a 25 page manual.Rigol DHO800 has 238 pages, Siglent SDS800X HD has 232 pages.Even my $9 electronic load ZK-FX35 has 12 pages.How much do you need?

author: osmax_br
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2025, 09:43:02 pm
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on February 22, 2025, 09:23:41 pmYou got lucky with your DMM and electronic loadRigol and siglent are reputable brandsLet's see something like hantek , the dso2000 has 68 pages manual , compared to 200 pages for the rigol , and it doesn't have a well-explained instructions like the old analog scopes manual (this my point of view , it might be wrong , relax)Something like fnrisi 1014d has 25 pages manual , this is hilarious !Btw , how did you find the electronic load , is it any good , I am about to get one of those

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2025, 10:09:23 pm
content: The 68 pages of the Hantek DSO2000 manual and the 61 pages of the “SCPI programmers manual” are enough for me.The DSO2000 also has a built-in help system.The ZK-FX35 is of course practically just a PCB.But thermally it is OK up to 35W and you can calibrate it so that the accuracy is quite good.I think it's not so bad for occasional use.It is what it is, a $9 thing.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 03:35:47 pm
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 22, 2025, 08:42:02 pmAs someone who's worked in electronic test and measurement for over 35 years (and at two of the largest T&M instrument manufacturers), I could not agree with you more

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 08:37:25 am
content: 80's ?In the 70's the English magazinePopularPractical Electronics was my teen years bible that had articles about scope use, something I could only dream about until I went to HS where in the Science lab was a CRO and as my form teacher was also our science teacher it wasn't long before I coerced him to let my use it one lunch hour to check the ripple on the prototype version of my 320V HV valve project linear PSU.Some 30+ years later I was gifted a dead Telequipment D83, my first scope, which got fixed, then another and another until I discovered DSO's some 20 years ago.Fixing them and selling them was easy compared to CRO's and one thing lead to another and for the past 12 years I've distributed them here in NZ.My oh my have things changed in the 50+ years since I 1st used one !

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 02:44:33 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 25, 2025, 08:37:25 amIt was actually American:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_ElectronicsI used to get that one and Radio Electronics and Byte (before it became PC only).I really miss good magazines.

author: osmax_br
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 02:50:31 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on February 25, 2025, 02:44:33 pmany good modern magazine suggestion ?apart from elektor

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 03:12:26 pm
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 25, 2025, 02:50:31 pmFor hobbyists? Nuts & Volts is a US magazine. Is Silicon Chip (Australian) still published? I think that's about it.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 04:27:07 pm
content: Yeah; NUTS AND VOLTS. Had a 'campy' presentation. That one had the intangible knack, for making readers smile, and the experience, of seeing Nuts & Volts mag on the 20 foot long rack of all magazines.That was at DeLorean's Magazine Store, Oakland, CA.I'd grab that, plus a couple of Astronomy mags and be set, for a good week's read !

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 04:59:24 pm
content: Steve Ciarcia's "Circuit Cellar" magazine is what reinfected me with the electronics bug.I held a subscription for years, right up until a while after it was purchased by Elektor, after which it never seemed the same again and I lost interest in it. I found everything about their 'rebrand' to make it difficult to read, including typefaces.It's still published (at least, electronically), I think. YMMV

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 05:08:44 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 25, 2025, 08:37:25 amI don't think England had a magazine called Popular Electronics. We had several aimed at beginners, like Practical Electronics, Practical Wireless, and Elektor. We had Wireless World for the more advanced readers. Wireless World often covered some pretty advanced things, and was popular with amateurs and professionals.

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 05:14:22 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 25, 2025, 05:08:44 pmOf a similar ilk was "Radio and Electronics World". On a more hobbyist footing was "Electronics Today International", which lasted into the early 90's iirc.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 05:16:01 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on February 23, 2025, 03:35:47 pmAs someone who has worked with a wide range of equipment for somewhat longer I would say documentation for instruments has always tended to be at an extreme. Many things have had barely anything, and many things have had very complete documentation covering both the design, calibration and use of the equipment.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 08:58:21 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 25, 2025, 05:08:44 pmThank you coppice.....memory cells are on the decline....indeed it was Practical Electronics.Big box of them spirited away in the attic.....

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 12:15:27 am
content: First it was Radio-Electronics magazine for me, but later I also subscribed to Circuit Cellar, QST, and QEX. I also had access to my father's trade magazines like Electronic Design and Electronic Design News.At one point I discovered a really neat European electronics magazine which I could get from Barns and Noble bookstore, but I was never able to get a subscription to work.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 12:37:19 am
content: Oh yeah, I remember, Ike you said,There was 'Everyday Practical Electronics'or maybe was 'Practical Everyday Electronics' around early 2000's to 2008.That, and Nuts & Volts Impressed me as I considered, that these folks maybe put on how ties and suit-coats, before going into the hobby shop area.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 01:11:39 am
content: Quote1992 was when everday electronics and practical electronics became 1 in the uk . Hobby electronics was another short lived mag that i used to buy out my pocket money

author: osmax_br
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 01:19:19 am
content: Well , I think today's magazines are YouTube videosSeriously, you guys named 1 good magazine, but if I asked about *USEFUL* YouTube channels you can suggest tens of themEg : w2eaw , eevblog , kiss analog , ben eater etc... (if you know useful channels add it to the list)

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 05:04:25 am
content: 'Electro-Boom' has a following, and I find good due to it being new-ish angles towards electronics and high voltage. Much of the HV engineering is non-intuitive.Plus he does at least try to entertain. I never had the Clown Fear thing, so ...

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 11:20:41 pm
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 04, 2025, 09:40:04 pmHi,It did not take me long to learn about the oscilloscope because I did a lot of math on the cartesian plane and when I looked at the screen for the first time I saw a grid and pretty much knew what it was all about. I then used a test signal (function generator) and played with the knobs. Since everything was labeled it was not hard to figure out what was what.What did take me longer is to learn what a Lissajous Pattern was, and what it meant when it was displayed on the scope. That was because I knew about modulation in the time domain (changing x and viewing what happens with y) I was not yet familiar with modulating both x and y at the same time. It did not take too long to learn this, but I did have to think about it for a while.What else I did not know yet was using intensity modulation. That was rather easy to pick up though because that just changed the intensity of the pattern on the screen along the lines it was displaying.So in short, using x alone and viewing y was easy to learn, using intensity modulation was easy to learn, Lissajous Patterns took a little longer.It did take a much longer time to be able to spell "Lissajous" though (ha ha)I should also note I only used the Lissajous Patterns on the scope a few times over years and years of using various scopes.My first encounter with a storage scope was rather interesting. Because it was called a "storage" scope I pretty much knew what to expect, and I was very excited about using one for the first time. That's because it was always hard to catch fast transients with a regular scope, but a storage scope could hold the waveform for some time, enough to figure out why it was like it was. That scope was priced at $10000 USD.These days the digital scopes all can catch and hold waveforms for an indefinite time period and also store the images. We've come a long way.Good luck with your new adventure.

author: donlisms
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 12:44:49 pm
content: There is a story, approximately, that Tektronix took a new 400-series scope into IBM, back in the day. Tek asked where a conference room was so that they could show it off and explain it, and IBM said "Nope! Give it here." and they took it without any documents and disappeared, with the assumption that it had to be self-explanatory. They reappeared in a couple of hours and said, basically, "We like it. Two things: can you make it fit under an airline seat? and can you make it faster?" Tektronix said "Sure," and made a big deal.Right about the time of the 7000 series, apparently, Tek got really serious about the user interface (which I think was already pretty good), and worked through the whole thing in great detail, with color coding for panel regions, carefully-worded legends and panel layouts and so on. There's a video about that. If you create user interfaces, you discover that little things matter!I suppose with all that, there's an assumption that this not your first scope. I guess if it was, and you understood the basics in theory, you could work it through in real life.I come to this thread a little late; my question when I read the subject was "Well, how did we do *ANYTHING* without the internet! How could you even live? What did you do all day?" It is the modern myopia. Some people... some of them... think life was better before we handed our entire lives over to these little boxes!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 07:05:16 pm
content: Quote from: donlisms on February 27, 2025, 12:44:49 pmNot I !I want the little things like setting the input attenuation for measurements to be accurate rather than needing to also do the mental maths of probe attenuation vs V/div settings on the waveform.Add in some custom input attenuation from some DIY probing solution and focus turns to using the scope rather than the DUT one is probing.These modern smart little boxes help us immensely with getting on with our projects, especially when our hobby time is limited due to other life commitments.Been there done that and it ain't fun needing to fix boat anchors just to advance projects.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 07:29:08 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 27, 2025, 07:05:16 pmTektronix did that on the 465 series which became the IBM oscilloscopes. The probe readout automatically shows the proper attenuation on the front panel, at least between 1x and 10x; lamps behind the vertical knob skirt illuminate the proper attenuation depending on what probe is used, or how the probe is configured. The contemporary readout oscilloscopes went further and showed it on the CRT, making it useful for documentation purposes. Modern oscilloscopes have dropped the readout function except for premium types with custom probe interfaces. What more did you want?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 09:04:43 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 27, 2025, 07:05:16 pmSorry, that's crossed a line. That makes you sound pig ignorant about scopes, which would be surprising.The Tek scopes from the early 70s onwards have done exactly what you want.That's over half a century!Perhaps you would benefit from knowing more than Siglent scopes? But I can understand your position in that regard. So did Upton Sinclairhttps://www.azquotes.com/author/13641-Upton_SinclairA person who can't mentally move a decimal point one place (two or three in exceptional cases) is not someone that is likely to be able to understand how to use a scope effectively. Scope probes with a /200 ratio, of course, require concentration!BTW, having relatively complex instruments with many non-obvious subtle but important tweaks that have to be discovered isalsoa way of wasting a lot of precious time. Just look at the many threads on this forum where we all have to try to educate relative beginners in how to setup their scope and understand what it isn't telling them.There's no free lunch with complex equipment. They might appear simple to people who have grown up with scopes, but beginners aren't in that position, of course.

author: osmax_br
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 09:43:04 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 27, 2025, 09:04:43 pmI can relate , by using the forums here , I moved from "What is a trigger" to "I wish my analog scope had delayed sweep" in 2 weeks

author: osmax_br
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 09:54:30 pm
content: Quote from: donlisms on February 27, 2025, 12:44:49 pmYes it is my first scope , of course I knew how to play with the knobs or to view a simple square wave , any idiot could do thatWhat I was asking is how to use it to its maximum potential, how to get good at using it , there are a lot of measurement and math stuff that you need to know when using an analog scope , simplest of which is knowing how to calculate the frequency , but for someone like me how isn't an engineering student it would be hard to figure it out by playing with the knobs , you need to ask someone , watch a vid or read the manualI think I asked this question 2 weeks ago , and people here suggested watching Alan wolke (w2eaw) videos , he is an absolute legendNow , after 2 weeks I'm using my analog scope to its max potential , I am now att the level of "I wish I had a digital scope to do X stuff, I can't do it on analog scopes"Btw most of my work is digital , I rarely do analog stuff , but an analog scope can still be useful sometimes , an analog scope is better than no-scope

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 09:55:39 pm
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 04, 2025, 09:40:04 pmYour answer is at 5:16:

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 10:00:11 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 05, 2025, 08:35:14 amDual timebase delayed trigger was magic, it allowed you to "zoom" into the waveform.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 10:18:15 pm
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 27, 2025, 09:54:30 pmExcellent!Analogue storage scopes do exist, but they are a pain to use in the way digitizing scopes aren'tOnce you have understood how to use a simple cheap tool to best effect, you are in a good position to determine what you need from your next tool. Don't presume that a DSO is automatically the best choice, since there is a strong overlap with the capabilities of an analogue scope.You may determine that you could gain wider capabilities by having a cheap digital domain tool, such as a logic analyser or message/protocol analyser or printf(). It all depends on what you want to do.I have several analogue and digitizing scopes; in almost all of my use cases the analogue scope is sufficient. Foe many other use cases, scopes would be too expensive and/or insufficient, but a cheap LA or protocol analyser is better.With skill and imagination, simple tools can do more than the unskilled believe. That is necessary when developing the next generation of high performance tools.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 10:22:53 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 27, 2025, 10:00:11 pmYes indeed. Been using that since the 70s, and couldn't have done my job without it (74LSTTL design).I've been using high performance DSOs since the late 80s. When I first used a more modern DSO (Tek 320, IIRC) I spent a long time trying to find delayed timebase. I was astounded to determine it wasn't there in anyuseableform; just horrid.

author: osmax_br
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 10:35:47 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 27, 2025, 10:18:15 pmSure , a lot of people here actually suggested getting a logic analyzer , which I didIt will arrive on the same day of my anatomy exam - What a coincidence-However I only found either 3$ cheap logic analyzer 8ch 24mhz , or 100$ dslogic 100mhz , I searched a lot for something in between , like for 20-30$ , but didn't find such a thing unfortunately, the next cheapest la was la1010 for 60$I don't know why they don't make something in between

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 11:02:40 pm
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 27, 2025, 10:35:47 pmYou may find the very cheap thing is sufficient for your immediate uses.A local sales agent once pointed out to me that he knew how to sell (1980 prices!) a £100 item or a £1000 item, but not something in between. £100=>zero thought, petty cash. £1000=>careful assessment of loaned item, department budget.Similar understanding lead HP to market its very capable HP9845 desktop computers as "calculators", so that mere engineers could buy them. At that time "computer" provoked the corporate immune response used for central mainframes!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2025, 09:10:01 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 27, 2025, 07:29:08 pmWhile your comments might be applicable for normal/ordinary scope use the work I was doing on projects in the 90's would have vastly benefitted if I was able to use what I have now for just a few $100.Add/use 100:1, current probes and shunts everything gets more complex which I was doing back then as a novice.tggzzz mentions dual delayed timebase which I was also using back then which is an abomination compared to what cheap DSO's offer now in timebase Zoom mode.While normal use is with 1:1 or most commonly 10:1 probes, when working with elevated voltages 100:1 probes offer more protection to the user and instrument however absolute accuracy can suffer at higher input attenuation but even these cheap scopes offer a Probe check feature and auto attenuation setting to improve accuracy so to be able to make best advantage of the new 12bit DSO's.Wise and experienced as you are, following the series of screenshots taken at my PC as the scope is remote should be easy to follow.Questions welcome.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2025, 09:29:06 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 28, 2025, 09:10:01 amI can say that about the 80s. When I returned to embedded hard realtime systems, I was simultaneously pleased and depressed at how little had changed.I could afford the MCUs, languages, and debugging tools with petty cash, rather than it being a carefully judged corporate decision.OTOH, 8bit processorsProgramming in CI would have hoped the state of the art would have rendered those museum pieces, but no.QuoteI regard such things as "more of the same" rather than being different and more complex.QuoteIt is to be hoped that newer technology is better than older technology, but frequently it isn't. Too often it is merely different or actually worse in important respects. The latter was the case for DSOs forseveral decades, even top-end DSOs. (See below for a contemporary example)QuoteWhy do the higher attenuation probes reduce accuracy? Looking at scope's vertical specifications, the probe is the least of the problems.QuoteIn one screenshot the scope says "you got the attenuation wrong, so you correct it". Why?Old analogue scopes just Got It Right, without fuss and bother. That's an example of new tech beingworsethan old tech.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2025, 09:39:10 am
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 27, 2025, 09:43:04 pmI have absolutely zero problems with helping people who think, listen and understand. Such people are a pleasure to help, but not everybody is like that!You and CharlotteSwiss are good examples

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2025, 01:10:10 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 28, 2025, 09:10:01 am"Obsolete" dual delayed timebase oscilloscopes support trigger after delay which I find especially useful for real time display of signals which would otherwise have too much jitter, (1) and dual *delta* delayed timebases have their place also. The former is not supported in anything that cost less than thousands today, and the later is long gone, but most oscilloscope users do not know that either existed.Early Tektronix DSOs inexplicably supported dual delta delayed acquisitions, but I have no idea what the application was since automatic time measurements should cover the same applications. Maybe it was to make up for the short record lengths available then, or there is an obscure application which required it. I have made good use of it occasionally to do things which would otherwise require a second oscilloscope.(1) Trigger after delay was intended for video signals, but I use it to display switching regulator waveforms in real time without jitter. Every oscilloscope that I have, DSO and analog, supports it, including my all tube Tektronix 545.QuoteSome analog oscilloscopes supported readouts with proper units and scaling, but it was a niche feature. Probe calibration was manual except in some exotic cases like that weird HP model, but for instance Tektronix had the probe calibration adjustment on the front of the oscilloscope as described in the manual. I do not know that anybody ever used it because the way to get better precision and accuracy is to make a slideback measurement, which on a 1970s era analog oscilloscope would deliver ... better than 12-bit resolution and accuracy, however automatic measurements on DSOs are much easier to use.The 12 bit DSOs I have seen do not have better settling time, linearity, or noise than oscilloscopes of the past. Hopefully they are better than their 8-bit predecessors. The 12-bit digitizers do improve FFT performance however, and provide something for marketing to crow about.QuoteYour use of patronization is a personal attack and attempt to establish dominance. Your objective was the later, but it comes with the former and I treat it as such.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2025, 01:12:55 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 28, 2025, 09:29:06 amThat has been my experience also. Maybe more expensive 100x probes work better, but the common ones I have used suffered from poor accuracy, drift (somehow), and high noise out of proportion to their attenuation.

author: osmax_br
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2025, 01:35:06 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 28, 2025, 01:10:10 pmDo you mean by "trigger after delay" a "hold off" ?I have it in my scope , the manual says to use it when you have a complex digital signal and you want to view different parts ot itTried to use it on ir receiver, however I think the manual meant by complex digital single a "repetitive" complex digital signal , which nowadays (or at least in my case) are not , and I also don't understand why the holdoff timer has a negative marking on the knob , how do I make the hold off time in negative , you cant say I want -50 ns delay ,or is the negative marking for the trigger knob which is on top of itMy scope also has TV V and TV H triggering which didn't find any *modern* use for it , also didn't find a use for the line triggering, why would I trigger on the mains 60hz voltage

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2025, 02:12:43 pm
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 28, 2025, 01:35:06 pmI use it on my DSO to see small PSU ripple. Because it triggers reliably, you can filter out the noise (spikes etc.) by averaging.I don't know exactly with a CRO.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2025, 02:35:54 pm
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 28, 2025, 01:35:06 pmIf you have some mains ripple on the thing you are observing, whether its inadequate power supply smoothing or some kind of pick up, it can be quite useful to be able to lock the trace to the mains and observe the ripple properly. Most digital people never use it, but many others use it daily.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2025, 04:15:56 pm
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 28, 2025, 01:35:06 pmNo, trigger after delay is completely different and separate from holdoff.Trigger after delay makes use of a completely independent trigger, which could be called the "B" trigger, or the "delayed" trigger.When delayed sweep is used to view a waveform, or part of a waveform after the main trigger, the delayed sweep may optionally be triggered after the delay instead of immediately running. This locks the delayed sweep to a signal feature, or an external trigger source. When viewing a video field or frame, the trigger after delay is used to lock the sweep to a specific scanline. For magnetic data storage, it is used to lock to a specific data sector or part of a data sector. (1) I often use it to lock to the reverse recovery waveform of a diode used in a switching regulator to display the reverse recovery without any jitter from changes in the duty cycle or jitter in the switching clock.On simpler oscilloscopes like a 2235 analog or 2232 DSO, this feature is controlled directly to the B trigger level control to save space and complexity. On the 465, the B trigger controls have it as part of their trigger source switch. On the Tektronix 7000 mainframes, it had its own dedicated mode control switch making its existence obvious.(1) Digital data streams usually have lower jitter than an analog oscilloscope's delaying sweep at 1:20,000 to 1:50,000, so trigger after delay was needed to see anything useful. Some later analog oscilloscopes supporteddigital delaying sweepsto lower their own internal jitter and support delayed sweep in these applications. Early DSOs with digital delays, and any modern DSOs, get this for free so would not need a trigger after delay in this case, but still helps when the signal itself has jitter.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 06:55:58 am
content: Quote from: osmax_br on February 28, 2025, 01:35:06 pmIf you are looking for low frequency noise, you may be suspicious that it is synchronous with the Mains frequency, but trying to trigger at 50/60Hz with the low level of the noise is difficult.In that case, triggering at Mains rate can show whether your original suspicions are correct.TV V & TV H triggering was always something which was "nice" to have, but analog 'scopes would normally trigger OK without the use of that function.Interestingly, there are many signals internal to analog TVs which are synchronous with H or V rate, so sometimes it helped to just trigger off the video waveform & look at that waveform of interest using the other 'scope channel.Another "Old Fart's trick" when looking at TV "V" synchronous signals was to just trigger off the (Mains)using the "line" function.The Mains & TV Vertical signals weren't, officially, synced but the "drift" was often small enough to ignore.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 06:57:59 am
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on February 28, 2025, 02:12:43 pmExactly the same use.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 12:44:05 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on March 01, 2025, 06:55:58 amA lot of old analogue scopes aimed at consumer work had a trigger setting than would specifically low pass a video signal into the triigger circuit, so the scope would trigger of the frame sync, and ignore the line sync and the actual video signal.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 11:15:10 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 01, 2025, 12:44:05 pmIndeed, but it was often more convenient to not mess with that, especially on those of us brought up on 545Bs, etc.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2025, 06:55:18 pm
content: Quite some of the old analog scopes were used for repairs around TVs. So the extra TV sync modes made some sense. The horizontal sync was not that critical as a normal trigger will often get that too. The vertical trigger is a bit more difficult to get from just a level. A few scope even had hadvanced TV triggers for specific lines or odd /even (they are different with PAL).With modern DSOs there is less need for these more special trigger modes as one can often just do a single capture and find the relevant part afterwards.Some still offer the the mains trigger.Getting a good trigger was quite important with an analog scope, as single capture is limited use (my scope has it, but rarely used).The hold of can help with difficult to trigger signals. The delayed trigger is more like a horizontal zoom thing.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2025, 08:50:50 pm
content: To be practical for single capture on a non-storage CRO, a Polaroid camera was required. Unfortunately, you can’t get film for the existing CRO cameras anymore.Does anyone know of a commercial frame to hold a DSLR on a Tektronix camera mount?I do have good macro lenses for my crop-factor DSLR.No, I don’t own a digital printer.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2025, 09:02:58 pm
content: Exactly the reason I went to DSO's that could screenshot to USB some 2 decades ago.Some can even save a Reference waveform to internal memory and later use it to lay a live waveform against as comparison then capture a screenshot of them both.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 12:24:50 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on March 02, 2025, 08:50:50 pmYou don't have to own a 3D printer, just have to design a mount with appropriate depth for your camera and lens. Then send it off to a print farm.Interesting concept. Most of the fiddling around and nuisance of using a scope camera, with none of the benefits of a DSO. I never much like taking the photos. And then using that slimy gel sponge to coat the pictures so they would last a while.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 03:06:34 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 02, 2025, 09:02:58 pmThat was a function I was anticipating with early DSOs, so I was sorely disappointed that they didn't have it.So many times, you really need to compare a waveform with one from an existing functional device, as the waveforms shown in manuals tend to be closer to ideal.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 03:17:05 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on March 03, 2025, 03:06:34 amHere I use a Reference waveform saved to the scopehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/probe-into-probes-whats-up/msg4678768/#msg4678768Pretty useful feature.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 03:56:33 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 02, 2025, 09:02:58 pmThat feature has been on DSOs going back to the earliest DSOs of the 1980s. My 2232 and 2230 can do it.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 11:22:47 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on March 03, 2025, 03:56:33 amI couldn't find it on the ones HP & Tek showed us nor on the THS700, which was the only DSO we had for most of the time I was at that job.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 11:56:45 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on March 03, 2025, 03:56:33 amMy Tek 468 also had that feature.It was also an improvement on many of its successors: it had a proper "envelope detection" mode, so it was possible to see AM signals modulating an RF carrier.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 12:20:56 pm
content: Philips scopes in those days also had the ability to save a waveform to the background for comparison reasons.On a 4 channel scope, you could have 4 different reference waveforms active at the same time.Try that on a modern 4 channel Keysight scope and you fail even on the 6000X, the max you can show is 1 waveform.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2025, 02:03:06 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on March 03, 2025, 11:22:47 amThe DSOs following the 2232 like the 2400 series and TDS series could display saved reference waveforms, which extends this feature into the 1990s.Quote from: tggzzz on March 03, 2025, 11:56:45 amClose examination reveals that the 2230 was based on the 468 with analog multiplexing. The improvements include the addition of equivalent time sampling which was an extension of the 468's jitter correction, and peak detection. Both had envelope detection but the 2232 used peak detection to augment envelope detection.The 2232 replaced the analog channel switch used for analog multiplexing in the 468 and 2230 with digital multiplexing after dedicated digitizers for each channel. Modern low cost DSOs went back to analog multiplexing but it is part of their integrated ADC with its sample rate split among multiple input channels.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2025, 03:41:19 pm
content: Can someone enlighten me as to what is special about the reference waveforms you are discussing?I only have super cheap scopes (Hantek, Zeeweii) and they all have a reference waveform feature.DSO2000ZEEWEII

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2025, 04:49:19 pm
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on March 04, 2025, 03:41:19 pmThese days it is common for a scope to have a reference waveform.But in the old days it was an amazing feature.Even more amazing was the ability to make measurements and calculations on stores waveforms.

author: SeoulBigChris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2025, 10:48:08 pm
content: I was exposed to oscilloscopes in college a little bit. We had labs associated with some courses, and also I was active in the Ham radio club. Learned more about them during my coop job (this may be a US centric phrase, kind of like an intern where you extend your time-to-degree from 4 to 6 years, and work alternating semesters in industry after your first two years in university — great way to offset university costs and gain experience).One job I had in a college professor’s lab used this monster Tek scope (the ones on wheels with long plug in modules). This one could become a microwave spectrum analyzer.When I graduated in 1985, I had passable knowledge of oscilloscopes which I had picked up by just tinkering and word of mouth from others around me, other students and engineers / professors. I have no recollection of any books or manuals being used. But my experience was with older generations of scopes — even in the early 1980s, that Tex scope on wheels looked like it came from the basement of a museum.On the job after graduation, the scopes were much newer and more capable, although still primarily analog. I remember our lab got one of the early Tek “lunchbox” scopes and everyone was excited. But as nice as it was, it was still limited, and for many projects the analog scopes excelled. The lunchbox form factor was a killer feature for field work, persisting to this day. I have a couple of very capable Rigol scopes that I can easily toss in the car and take to a client’s site.Maybe we used the manuals from time to time, but again, mostly we learned from the older engineers. Things I remember (and Dave mentioned in the recent podcast) was the dual time base feature for zooming in on a signal feature or glitch.I remember a weird kind of oscilloscope we needed for one project in the 90s, where we had to capture a minute or so of telemetry data in real time. The normal digital scopes of the day didn’t have enough memory, but we obtained this really big Tek scope (borrowed from a client I think) whose main purpose was storage. Maybe it was called a TDS-xxx? Basically a special purpose oscilloscope focused on very deep acquisition memory which you could scroll around and zoom in after capture. From googling and memory, I think it was this onehttps://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/R7912To summarize, mostly learned from others. Manuals referenced from time to time as needed.