what brand of cutters do you like for electronics - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: slburris
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2010, 01:52:27 pm
content: What kind of ESD safe flush cutters do you like?I ran across a few brands of flush cutters being mentioned on the TekScopes list,none of which I've ever heard of, probably because I'm not exposed to them inthe US.I have the Xcelite 170D.From TekScopes, at 6X the price of the Xcelite is the Knipex 78 03 125 ESD.http://www.knipex.com/index.php?id=1216&L=1&page=group_detail&parentID=1367&groupID=1485Also mentioned were cutters from Piergiacomi:http://www.piergiacomi.com/I know the value of having good tools, but are these worth what they cost? Any other favorite options?Scott

author: allanw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2010, 03:06:09 pm
content: I bought a few of these from this seller:http://cgi.ebay.com/Xuron-9200-micro-shear-flush-cutter-used-/270611071788?pt=BI_Electrical_Equipment_ToolsThey work pretty well for the price. I was going to suggest them to that poster but he does not ship outside the US.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2010, 03:15:31 pm
content: I like the Lindstrom 8148, which are brilliant when in good condiiton, although I've had a couple of pairs that weren't ground very well (may have been bad regrinds - I think they came from ebay..)Whatever brand, you absolutely must have a pair of flush-cut cutters, not bevelled, as bevelled profiles are useless for stripping.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2010, 05:19:16 pm
content: I like to believe that the conclusion of this mini review are more than helpful ...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=337.0I think ,that Dave must transfer it too , at the User reviews section.

author: slburris
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2010, 09:44:12 pm
content: So I care mostly about precision cutting of leads on PCBs, not cutting RG58, UTP for ethernet, house wiring or the like.The other thread seems to say nothing about how ESD safe these tools are.It seems most of the chatter I see here and on mailing lists I'm on are talking about theKnipex and Lindstrom cutters.Scott

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2010, 09:52:12 pm
content: Quote from: slburris on August 19, 2010, 09:44:12 pmESD safe is pretty low on the priority list - it's hard to imagine a scenario where non 'safe' cutters could pose an increased hazard to anything.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2010, 10:07:39 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 19, 2010, 09:52:12 pmI agree ... all cutters has insulated grips .. the ESD are just an specification.In praxis anything at this category does the job.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2010, 10:14:58 pm
content: The ESD ones probably aren't that insulated (resistance in the megaohm range), but I agree that this isn't too useful, it's probably more for labs that have a policy against any non-ESD-safe tools. Just like ESD-safe tweezers, regular tweezers are 100% metal, so I don't see how they can carry a charge.

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2010, 10:20:37 pm
content: I mostly use Lindstrom 7190 micro side cutters, box jointed.

author: slburris
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2010, 10:36:55 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 19, 2010, 09:52:12 pmOh, say you are clipping the leads of a J-FET.What then is the difference between Knipex 78 03 125 and 78 03 125 ESD?Are you saying it's mostly a marketing invention than anything else? Doesn't thismean the cushions on the handles are at least slightly conductive?Scott

author: slburris
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2010, 10:38:47 pm
content: This is kinda buried on the Knipex site, don't know how meaningful it isQuote

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2010, 11:03:28 pm
content: Considering how often side cutter go missing in a lab, the best one is the one you can find!This is one of the few cases where I'd rather have 5 cheapies than one good one.I agree, "ESD safe" is pretty much a crock, don't bother.If they are fine enough to get in and cut SO IC legs I'm happyLindstrom are very nice.Dave.

author: McPete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 01:35:32 am
content: I agree with Dave, Lindstrom are pretty good, but the pricetag is a bit nuts!If I may recommend, Wiha make some very nice cutters, and other tools. My toolkit is mostly Wiha. I have the ESD cutters because the local distributor spec'd them at no addional charge.http://www.wihatools.com/500seri/568_Serie.htm

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 08:15:24 am
content: Quote from: slburris on August 19, 2010, 10:36:55 pmand...? Where does the charge come from? There will almost always be a 'soft' body discharge path - the metal of the cutters themselves won't have enough capacitance to hold a damaging level of charge.QuoteYesQuoteProbably. But not very useful.I suspected this all came about as there are occasions that you do want fully insulated cutters, and someone decided that there must be an 'esd' version of everything.It's mostly marketing, and as Dave says, for places that blindly follow an 'ESD-safe everything' policy regardless of actual need.In a development environment, the only thing you should really pay attention to is to avoid floor coverings that are prone to generate static. Anything else is a waste of money.Production environments are a little different as you have staff who are less knowledgeable and possible don't care as much, combined with potential for expensive damage, but any engineer will be aware if they can feel static, and have the sense to touch something grounded before touching an expensive board.Just wondering - does anyone here routinely wear a wriststrap ? I'd bet it's a small minority..and has anyone ever actually killed anything with static? I certanly haven't. PLenty of other ways, but not static.

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 10:04:45 am
content: A colleague and I use one of thesehttp://www.piergiacomiforniture.com/piergiacomi_forniture/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=159.They do well their job, and last for a while, but the choice is also because they are the ones you find at the shop (internet is not always the best solution due to delivery cost).

author: DJPhil
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 10:32:13 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 20, 2010, 08:15:24 amDefinitely not routinely, but occasionally when handling ICs or small FETs. It's primarily habit from previous indoctrination in the computer world. I built computers at a plant nearby that was owned by Inacom, Compaq, and later HP, and they had the multimillion dollar anti-static floor, footstraps with mandatory testing, and all the goodies. It's much more important with moving conveyors and pneumatic switching everywhere, but I'll be they lost more money in the one pallet of computer monitors I saw drop from twenty feet up (forklift accident) than they ever did in ESD losses. Without those precautions, who knows?I've personally killed two things with static that I'm almost sure was my fault, both were 30pin SIMMs (remember those?). I was helping a friend work through a backlog at the small repair business he owned, and I was still in high school at the time. I was testing SIMMs with a standalone memory tester both times, and though I never saw a spark I did feel myself build a charge while taking the two steps to the machine they were going into. Pulled from the system, tested good on the tester, right back into the machine, bad memory post alert that wasn't there before, back on the tester, tested bad. It's entirely possible that it could have been a fluke with the machine, the tester, or both.Those two incidents aside I haven't ruined anything in a mysterious manner since, and it's been about fifteen years! I've let plenty of smoke out, but any suspected ESD deaths were ruled out. I tend to take the possibility seriously when I'm working with something I don't have a spare of, but other than that I play it fast and loose.Just weighing in.Edit: Alm's post reminded me to mention that all I use for ESD nowadays is a $7 wristband. I got one from 3M that had a cord with a banana plug and alligator clip adapter. I don't have a mat, but if I was working with more expensive parts I'd consider it. I agree with the cost/benefit approach of adopting cheap insurance when I can.

author: lhc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 10:45:46 am
content: I'm using Knipex cutters - after using them you will not want to use any other cutters. The SuperKnips have a nice slim but comfortable handle and the spring tension is ideal, tere are also other types with soft rubber cushion grips. You can get them with many types of hardeness, with flat spring holding the clipped wire, different coating etc. The same is true for Wiha - best screwdrivers especially SoftFinish type - best grips ever, they are so nice to the touch and feel very comfortable in hand. I get them from local Ebay-like site for less than normal but still they are woryth the full price.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 10:51:13 am
content: I'm also a Knipex fan, although I've heard good things about Lindstrom. I dislike cheap tools, they annoy be every time I use them, as opposed to expensive tools that only annoy me once, when I pay for them. I rarely lose a tool, but my bench is small enough that I'm often forced to clean up before starting something new.I have two suspected ESD kills. One when I was troubleshooting a computer on the carpet. It behaved funny before, and it was dead after. But it might also have been flaky components. Another was with a memory module that was dead after installing it in another computer (though it did work properly before), but again, I didn't do a proper post-mortem to confirm ESD. The climate here is usually fairly humid and I never feel a shock at home, so I guess this environment is not very susceptible.I use a wriststrap and ESD-safe mat when working on expensive stuff, because it's cheap insurance. And I do take care when handling CMOS circuits or power MOSFET's, not because I consider it a large risk, but because it's easy to avoid and may cost a lot of time troubleshooting. ESD isn't just instant death, it may also cause a shortened lifespan.It doesn't make sense to spend a lot of money on ESD protection in a hobby environment in my opinion, the cost of the parts you handle in a year is just too low compared to a production environment. If you'd kill 1% of your parts, it wouldn't be a big deal. If some low-margin consumer electronics company has 1% (of total production) extra DOA/RMA, it might kill their margin.

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 11:30:49 am
content: The speech on ESD makes me remind of a cheap laser module I used. After a few years it was lying outside the circuit (leads shorted to prevent charge accumulation), I tried to use it once more, but it was very weak. Since I heard and read of heavy ESD problems about laser LEDs, I guess the cause could be that... Any other experiences?

author: squeezee
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 02:24:47 pm
content: I've killed my fair share of electronics over the years (mainly PC components) either outright or with 'soft' failures. Sometimes it's a nice big spark but most of the time you'll never notice it, you absolutely cannot feel either the buildup or the discharge in most cases.Basic protection of a wrist strap and (ideally) a mat is going to eliminate the largest source of static discharge (you). After that it's just diminishing returns, which as alm points out is rarely worth the investment as a hobbyist. (it's just not practical to try and eliminate the myriad of potential ESD threats in a home lab)So far I've never seen an component failure caused by ESD that i could attribute to the tools rather than the technician. Still, it's hard to resist buying the ESD handled versions when they're only a few bucks more ($3 difference for knipex). If only for the psychological effect.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 04:45:14 pm
content: Quote from: squeezee on August 20, 2010, 02:24:47 pmYep , that my opinion too , after 26 years of experience, working with electronics.But I will repeat my self , about the positive feeling that the HURON 9200 left to me.The large opening of the jaws , makes it unbeatable.I have both ( HURON & Knipex ) , I like both, they are the crop of the cream.But if some one forced me to keep only one .... I would chose the HURON 9200.With this large jaws opening , you can replace with it , and the second larger in size cutter in your tool case, and with this fact in mind , it works as an space saver .

author: Valhallasmith
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2010, 01:31:11 am
content: Dealextreme.com (not dealexcel) is a pretty good place to get little anti-static items you might need. Needle bottles, storage items, wrist straps. Around a buck and change for little items like that. I've tested the anti-static straps I got from them. Runs around 1MOhm so its ok. Its a little on the small side, but comfortable enough.

author: ElektroQuark
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 12:01:28 pm
content: Any advice about LINDSTROM 7191?, I'm thinking of buy one of those.

author: eliocor
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 12:38:44 pm
content: I ONLY use cutters made byEremorLindstromFor tweezers I use only Lindstrom ones (if treated correctly they can last forever): they are the Rolls Royce among tweezers.Once you use them you will never be able to go back to other producer's tweezers!!But please do not use the ones with the "BL" suffix: they are the cheapest ones and they are ONLY like the best one made by other firms!!!If you want get the Lindstrom tweezers at a lesser price, you can buy theIDEAL-TEKones: IDEAL-TEK produces the tweezers for Lindstrom.Even the IDEAL-TEK cutters are really good but their catalog is rather scarce.I warmly suggest the complete series of SM tweezers (especially made for SMD): they are really wonderful. You will never regret the money you have spent on them!!!

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 01:24:37 pm
content: Have used CK all my working life which I have recently discovered are made by Schmitz -http://www.schmitz-zangen.de/index.htmlLindstrom were very nice but are now owned by a French company who have farmed out most of their manufacturing to Spain and dropped the box joint on their whole range. This is beyond a disaster!Knipex - yeah...not too bad. Cutters are OKHave some Schmitz on the way right now but if their anything like CK they will be exquisite...I have heard there is even some idiot doing reviews of electronic pliers on the web somewhere...

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 01:34:23 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2010, 11:03:28 pmI've always felt the same. When the boss said :-"Put in your wish list",most of the others would order the most expensive types of cutters.I usually ordered the mid-priced tools.For the same amount,I could buy two,one for copper wire,& one for steel wire.These usually lasted as long as one expensive tool.I've always been suspicious that the ESD problems originally arose in "clean rooms" with very low humidity,& are fairly unlikely in normal,humidconditions.The "ESD damage will cause failure down the road"argument always struck me as being a bit self-serving on the part of the semiconductor manufacturers.I do use ESD straps etc, if they are provided in work situations just to be on the safe side.VK6ZGO

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 02:43:36 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 20, 2010, 08:15:24 amI don't even have one to wear.My benches are covered with earthed conductive plastic sheet which measures a few megs when you poke it with a meter.I am sure things can be blown up with ESD. You don't need a strap to avoid it, you do need some understanding and a decent sized conductive surface to use as a 'zero voltage' reference.

author: dfnr2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 03:49:18 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 20, 2010, 08:15:24 amI never damaged a device with static -- until I did.In Houston TX (humid the whole year), I worked on potentially sensitive circuits all the time for years without ever damaging a part. Of course, based on my experience, I was not too concerned about ESD.Then I moved to North TX, into a small carpeted apartment, and when setting up a home lab (with poor ESD protection), damaged a pin-driver board of a Data I/O programmer the one time I opened it up without a without a wrist strap. I was shocked (pun intended.), and could hardly believe it. Subsequently, over the past 10 years, I've been much more consistent about using ESD protection, especially for any professional work, but occasionally I've lapsed doing R&D stuff, and on a subset of those occasions, I've experienced the occasional failure of a chip, and one heartbreaking DSO injury. (The damage was sudden, after I replaced a floppy drive, and I know which chip went bad because a year later I finally tracked down I replaced the chip (a video DAC). I also get back boards from New York all too often with the same damaged analog inputs on a PIC chip, especially in the winter. I can say that my subsequent board revisions all have much better attention to ESD built in, as does the overall packaging plan. The bonus is that you can breathe much easier during compliance testing (which is less stringent than real world ESD events.)One more thing--it is well known that small ESD discharges may not destroy a chip, but can cause it to function out of spec, or to prematurely fail remote from the event. So just because a chip seems to work in circuit doesn't mean it has not been damaged. That's why even in humid climates, it's worth taking at least rudimentary precautions for hobby and R&D work, and full precautions for delivered final products.Dave

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 04:02:53 pm
content: People please .. show to us your cuttersAnd forged the ESD thingy ...Thanks.

author: dfnr2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 04:17:22 pm
content: On cutters - currently I am on my second pair of erem cutters after 10 years good use of the first pair; abused and nicked the first pair trying to cut some hard leads. I also have 3 or 4 pairs of inexpensive but perfectly good plato cutters scattered around the lab for all but the most delicate work.For many years from childhood through my first engineering job, I used (in my limited home lab) a (new, thank you) toenail clipper, which worked perfectly well. The rest of my entire toolkit was a classic victorinox swiss army knife, one flat head and two phillips screwdrivers, a box-knife, pair of scissors, my teeth (for stripping wire-wrap wire), and a cheap radio shack soldering iron that plugged into the wall, plus an analog VOM and a logic probe. Believe it or not, I built and debugged several fairly complex digital projects with that stuff. That is why I love my lab equipment so dearly today :-)Dave

author: dfnr2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 04:26:59 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on July 03, 2011, 01:34:23 pmPerhaps self serving in the sense that you don't blame the manufacturer and lose them a design win after you damage the chip yourself. In fact, if the chips were ESD resistant, I guarantee you'd see it in the marketing materials and datasheets. However, these guys do uncap the chips and look at them under the microscope when they get complaints of systematic failures.Dave

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 04:42:25 pm
content: Cant' hurt except your wallet. The more you use a cutter, the more bang you get for an expensive tool in terms of easing repeating strain on your hand and losing the cutting edge of the tool. But if your use is just for a home lab or slightly more, its overkill, an $8 Xcelite with our without ESD protection will do for decades, until you lose it or it breaks from much use.I also buy el cheapos to leave in toolkits. Just audition one from a supplier, and if it survives, buy enough from the same batch to stock your toolbox. If they get stolen or lost it won't hurt, I got Xcelite look alikes for $2 and bought 4; I got one to audition, cut up some wire, checked the edges of the cuts and the blades with a loupe, and all's well, got the rest. That's a catch as catch can on these cheapo tools, brand names are useless on them so you get them while you can.Quote from: EdoNork on July 03, 2011, 12:01:28 pm

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 05:07:16 pm
content: Quote from: dfnr2 on July 03, 2011, 04:17:22 pmWell I have a nice local link for youhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1105.0

author: Richard W.
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 05:43:24 pm
content: I bought this one:Knipex 79 42 125 ESDvery sharp and ESD safe

author: ElektroQuark
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 07:09:16 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on July 03, 2011, 04:42:25 pm

author: ipman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 07:47:34 pm
content: Maybe my european neighbors heard of a german company called Wiha?I use that one presented in the linkhere.Nice one, cuts just fine even larger wires up to 1mm, but the downside is the cost.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 08:24:30 pm
content: Quote from: dfnr2 on July 03, 2011, 03:49:18 pmIs it well known? Often stated with a 'may' or 'can' but I have never seen any evidence offered and a device failure will never be proven to have been caused by an ESD event months or years ago.If you are talking about MOSFET gate insulation for example it seems to me it either breaks down or it doesn't and if it doesn't break down there is no current flow and so no energy to cause any damage.Sure you can argue that there must be some precise level of ESD event which is just enough to cause a little undetectable damage so you can't argue with the 'may' or 'can' possibility, but, I wouldn't be surprised if events of that precise level were 1 in a 1000 and there would be no fear at all of shipping product with undetectable latent faults because for every one you did you would have had 500 real detectable faults.Personally I think it is very likely bullshit put forward by suppliers of static management equipment to scare people into buying equipment to solve a problem they didn't think they had.If anyone has done any real study subjecting semiconductors to ESD discharges followed by life testing of apparent non-failures and controls I would like to see the results.

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 10:45:17 pm
content: Expensive tools always mislead me to think they are more capable than what they can do. I always end up with a little nick on the cutting edge due to cutting harder materials. So look for cutters with high hardness number which will do the job.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 11:06:25 pm
content: Quote from: ipman on July 03, 2011, 07:47:34 pmWell neighbor I think that I will still prefer the American Xuron 9200, over the Knipex 78 61 125 ESD,because my Knipex it got an tiny damage on the blade because I tried to strip a copper tiny cable with it.About Wiha .... I would love to get their free sample, if they do not afraid some real competition.

author: dfnr2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 11:52:40 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on July 03, 2011, 08:24:30 pmHow aboutthis one. Nothing special about that article--it was listed among hundreds others like it examining various processes and topologies. If that's not to your liking, then try going toIEEExploreand searching for some simple keywords like "cmos" and "esd". You have to pay for access unless you can get it through your library, though. Some people take this business seriously, and if there are failures, the engineer / engineering company at the end of the line (making the chip and getting blamed for the failure) will do everything possible to find out what happened and how to stop it. There are actually engineers that only do this stuff.Dave

author: ipman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 07:10:16 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on July 03, 2011, 11:06:25 pmWell ... in my country there is no such thing as a free sample! Never heard of this.As for ordering something from US, the transport costs are huge!. I tried to order a $9 video board fan and the transport costs were $22, and custom tax will add to this. It makes no sense to order something from there.@others: sorry about off-topic.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 11:52:07 am
content: Quote from: dfnr2 on July 03, 2011, 11:52:40 pmThat one appears not to cover the point. Latent failure caused by undetected damage is possible and people investigating it are deliberately trying to create undetectable damage. My point is given inadequate ESD management and the random nature of real world ESD events what is the probability of producing undetectable damage and latent failures without also producing detectable damage and instant failures?I suggest that probability is low to very low and so argument that you need to spend more money on ESD management because you could have an ESD problem without knowing it may, because it plays on fear of the unknown, be persuasive, but, actually doesn't hold much water.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 12:16:23 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on July 03, 2011, 08:24:30 pmI have seen multiple devices exposed to ESD like events that became much noisier. The most recent was a stanford research preamplifier that uses a matched jfet input stage. I connected a piezoelectric sensor that apparently had a built-up charge probably due to a temperature change. The amplifier continued to work, but the voltage noise was an order of magnitude higher. I guess this was because it was a JFET input, so the junction was damaged by breakdown, but not shorted like you would expect with a MOSFET. Still, you might expect that a MOSFET or its protection diodes could be damaged such that the leakage current and noise went up while it continued to 'work'.

author: LEECH666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 12:45:56 pm
content: Another German brand I encountered many times during my apprenticeship was Belzer (seems to be Bahco now?). I think the Bahco ones look crappy tho (just judging from the pictures).I personally use Lindström (got 2), but also own a Knipex Sidecutter.The Knipex one is good, the Lindströms are better.I also own a set of Wiha torx screwdrivers, and they are really nice. If the sidecutters made by Wiha are as good as their screwdrivers, they might be well worth the money. And compared to Lindström they are rather cheap. The Schmidtz ones look very nice too.In the end, it's up to you. Buy a quality brand and you'll be fine.Cheers from Germany,Florian

author: dfnr2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 02:42:31 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on July 04, 2011, 11:52:07 amFor a hobbyist who is not experiencing device failures, this is is a perfectly valid point of view--only rudimentary ESD protection, if any, is necessary, and rare failures (or no failures) are not a burden. In that case the expense of ESD protection (both in the design and in the assembly or service process) is out of proportion to the benefit. This is a very legitimate calculation for a hobbyist.If you are delivering and supporting a product, then the equation changes, and ESD protection up front (to the device and to the assembly process) becomes quite cheap compared with servicing returns.If you are servicing an expensive piece of equipment, then good ESD precautions are worthwhile as well. I have certainly experienced this. I recall in one video or podcast Dave Jones saying that the lack of ESD precaution during a teardown is part of the test, but he is saying that "tongue-in-cheek" (a US idiom meaning with a bit of ironic humor). You will note that he nonetheless wore a wrist strap when disassembling the HP scopes, because he knows that the ESD protection is engineered of the whole system, and once you remove a board, the designed-in ESD protection mechanisms (such as the low impedance path to chassis ground, which dissipates charge by air ionization) are gone or less effective.Dave

author: Richard W.
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 03:56:31 pm
content: Quote from: LEECH666 on July 04, 2011, 12:45:56 pmDon't confuse the cheaper Electronic Super Knips like the 78 03 125 ESD with the precision sidecutters like the 79 42 125 ESD

author: dfnr2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 08:47:31 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on July 04, 2011, 11:52:07 amTo those that don't know, it is a matter of fearing the unknown. To those that know, it is a matter of managing risk and controlling outcomes.Dave

author: LEECH666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 01:04:51 pm
content: Quote from: Richard W. on July 04, 2011, 03:56:31 pmI was comparing apples to oranges anyway, since my Knipex is a bigger model while my Lindstroms are like the 79 42 125 ESD. In that respect the 79 42 125 ESD seems to be on par with the Lindstroms.My Knipex is definitely not a Super Knips. Probably this one, but I am not sure: 77 32 115 ESD.My Lindstroms are probably those Models not sure: RX8130 and 8142, or something similar.Cheers,Florian

author: Frangible
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 03:58:50 pm
content: I buy the Xcelite cutters. They are cheap, reasonably well made, and seem to last as long as the more expensive varieties. They are also available at the local Home Depot branded as Crescent, but are identical otherwise.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 04:52:02 pm
content: Quote from: Frangible on July 05, 2011, 03:58:50 pmLast night I had the same dream, but I did wake-up ..Get a XURON 9200 ... and then you will thank a Greek for something that the Americans didLOL( I got two of those very cheaply, second hand looks like new, from the American Ebay )

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2011, 05:32:48 pm
content: I use Piergiacomi tools (http://www.piergiacomi.com).They are made here in Italy (I've seen the factory), maybe they are not so good or so durable as those pricey Swiss forged tools, but they work.In our small production environment we buy about one new cutter each year, and the "mean life" of a Piergiacomi cutter is about 5 years (and maybe in 5 years it has cut 100.000 leads).One interesting thing: I was looking on the Net for the prices of the other brand's , and I discovered that all the brands are cheaper in the US than in Italy.This is not a new discovery: every tool is cheaper in the US, but here they cost from 2 times up.Some German manufacturer is selling directly form the website: I will buy some, to see if they are better than the ones I useRegarding VIHA, I've never touched they side cutters, (on the web-photos they are similar to the Piergiacomi's) but I own two Phillips screwdrivers from them, and the are really the best screwdriver I ever had.The are in their 25th year in the lab, and the only problem with them is that some times they are found in the pockets of some visitor..

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2011, 07:50:55 pm
content: Quote from: ciccio on July 18, 2011, 05:32:48 pmPeople, please buy Italian stuff! A little help... Considering our tax burden, selling just 320 billion ofthesecutters will completely delete our public debt!BTW, welcome, Ciccio!

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2011, 09:21:47 pm
content: Quote from: scrat on July 18, 2011, 07:50:55 pmI will get a Piergiacomi only if you start buying Greek FETA , this is called as balanceLOL

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2011, 09:25:35 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on July 18, 2011, 09:21:47 pmUnfortunately, I don't like cheese very much... Is there any other product you can advice? Once I heard about Ouzo... Is it worth?However, many Italians are moving to Greece for vacation this summer, due to the low prices...

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2011, 12:23:27 am
content: Got a set of Schmitz in to have a look at...very nice. Schmitz are the manufacturer of CK which I have had for over twenty years so they last very well.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2011, 02:03:29 am
content: Quote from: scrat on July 18, 2011, 09:25:35 pmI thought that they was coming just of having a beer with their Greek friends !!Once I had helped one Italian motorcyclist he was having electrical problems.Another one time I had help another Italian to fill with air one rubber boat.The last time I helped one mechanic engineer , he was working for the Italian brand "carbonini" plasma cutters and such,he came in my town to set up a plasma cutter, I was there to do the electrical connection, we become friends, and he had an digital camera like my, and I helped him by cleaning the CCD from hot pixels.Io parla poko Italiano ..

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2011, 06:42:34 am
content: Hello Kiriakos-GRI buy FETA for making salads, and it's good..When I was at the university (many many years ago...) we had many students from Greece (if I remember well, it was because admission to the Greek universities was close-number, and the priority was for the sons of the military).Got some friends, but time is gone, and I don't have news about them.In any case, keep helping tourists from Italy: they surely have troubles reading road signs.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2011, 09:43:32 am
content: I recently took delivery of 2 pairs of Italian PIERGIACOMI TRE-03-NB flush side cutters via ebay. The price ?....GBP6.99 each inc delivery.For the hobby/semi-pro market they look fine for PCB assembly etc. The build quality is good, if not in the same class as the very expensive brands, and they are comfortable to hold. Max cut rating is 1.3mm copper wire.

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2011, 08:53:45 pm
content: Quote from: Precisiontools on July 19, 2011, 12:23:27 amOooh, these are HOT! I want to buy them too - where did you get them from?

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2011, 08:01:08 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on July 03, 2011, 11:06:25 pmKiriakos, I am shopping for side cutters, and from your previous posts on the subject I see what your pragmatic approach is similar to mine.What's your final advice:Xuron 9200Knipex 78 61 125 (ESD or not)LindstromOther?Thanks.

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2011, 10:50:22 am
content: Quote from: img on July 28, 2011, 08:53:45 pmWhere you at img? And what's your budget?

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2011, 12:34:08 pm
content: Quote from: Precisiontools on July 29, 2011, 10:50:22 amIn the UK. Budget? Well, I already have Lindstrom, but want a less pricey above average quality item.Are these German items really expensive?

author: Richard W.
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2011, 04:12:50 pm
content: The Schmitz-cutters are cheaper than a equivalent Knipex. They are about 20€ + VATRecently i sold all my pliers ect. to replace them with pliers with dissipative handles (ESD):79 42 125 ESD; 77 02 115 ESD; 34 22 130 ESD; 34 12 130 ESD (please don't look at the scary price tag.4 pliers = 1/3 Rigol-Scope)But they are really worth their money and should last many years.

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2011, 05:37:57 pm
content: Ok, 20€ + VAT is fair.But where can I get them from in the UK?Quote from: Richard W. on July 29, 2011, 04:12:50 pmThe price tag doesn't scare me, this is how much I paid for my Lindstroms. What prompted your decision to invest in ESD?

author: Richard W.
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2011, 06:50:07 pm
content: QuoteDo you know the feeling when you just WANT new tools?The price difference between ESD and NON-ESD isn't that much. It avoids (maybe not existing) problems.Electrostatic discharges mostly don't kill components, but degrades them. These failures are hard to find.QuoteSorry, i don't know.http://www.schmitz-zangen.de/impressum.htmlA demand by email will probably be the easiest way.

author: comox
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2011, 09:34:41 pm
content: I user Eremhttp://www.cooperhandtools.com/brands/erem/index.cfm

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2011, 02:26:03 am
content: I have them & can get them but it just seems a bit of a waste for them to send them to me in Australia and then I ship them to you in the UK.You have the website, contact them and see if they have a distributor in the UK. Remember, they make CK too and I know there is a guy on eBay UK who sells CK...but they are usually dearer than Schmitz.I usually buy the ESD pliers off most manufacturers not because of the ESD "advantages" but because 9 times out of 10 they are nicer handles to use.You want to know how long a good set of box jointed pliers last? I have had a set of CKs for over 20 years in my job and apart from loss and theft, they are still going strong.For 20 to 30€ I think they are great value.

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2011, 06:36:01 am
content: Quote from: Richard W. on July 29, 2011, 06:50:07 pmSay no more...Quote from: comox on July 29, 2011, 09:34:41 pmHow's the quality?How long have you had them?Do you mainly work on PCBs? (I do, just trying to compare requirements)Are they very expensive?Please describe your Erem experience.Quote from: Precisiontools on July 30, 2011, 02:26:03 amAh, FINALLY a tangible reason to use ESD stuff!I'll try to write to Schmitz and see how far I get. I fear shipping charges from Germany; getting a cow shipped from there is great value, but not small items.

author: comox
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2011, 06:28:18 pm
content: I find Erem to be of an extremely high quality. They are Swiss made, and the steel is very hard. I have both cutters which I do use on PCBs (clipping leads after soldering), and I also have a pair of needle nose pliers. Both tools have a hidden spring which keeps them open, and both are ESD safe. The cutters were purchased to replace a rubbish pair I picked up from a high-street electronics shop. The cutters have been used regularly and the blades show no sign of wear. I would highly recommend Erem and personally consider them precision tools. (Pic uploaded.)

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2011, 07:20:06 pm
content: I looked up the prices for Erem, and they're priced like Lindstrom, more or less.When £50 cutters turn out to be very good, this doesn't surprise me at all - of course they have to be good, they are extremely expensive.When £25-30 cutters are very good, I consider this an optimal investment.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2011, 07:33:33 pm
content: Quote from: comox on July 30, 2011, 06:28:18 pmthose big bulging screw can get in the way i think, while try cutting component leads flat.

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2011, 07:42:39 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 30, 2011, 07:33:33 pmValid point, actually. Which cutters do you use?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2011, 07:49:21 pm
content: Quote from: img on July 30, 2011, 07:42:39 pmnone. just in lurking stage. but i have experience working with things, but not up to the quality shown here. i used no brand or for rough job only to be precise.

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2011, 08:00:30 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 30, 2011, 07:49:21 pmMakes sense. At the end of the day, it's what we make with the tools, not how wonderful these tools are that matters. I thought about it and decided not to go beyond £25-30 for cutters. The really cheap ones are genuinely no good, they don't cut well, make my hand hurt and die quickly. The really expensive ones - well, they might be good, but I don't see what £50 cutters have that £30 cutters don't.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2011, 08:08:57 pm
content: i always think high quality high priced tool means durability. you can even cut diamond!but just cutting leads and wire? i can agree with you.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2011, 08:38:34 pm
content: I really like Lindstrom for ultra fine wires, but only if I can get somebody else to pay for them. It's disappointing to hear in a previous post that the quality may slide due to different sourcing. Moderate quality cutters are fine most of the time and I think all the brands mentioned here are way better than moderate. I do think true flush-cutting edges are a huge mistake for most users. That type of cut just isn't necessary most of the time and it makes the edges far less durable. Semi-flush-cutting is my preference. They last a lot longer. Every place I've worked, the flush-cutting cutters were the first to hit the scrap bin. I have semi-flush that I've used for 3 decades with no perceptible wear. My electronic cutters also last a long time because I have a nice pair of Knipex piano wire cutters so there's never a temptation to cut something I shouldn't!

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2011, 08:46:16 pm
content: Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on July 30, 2011, 08:38:34 pmPerhaps because there is nothing these cutters wouldn't cut anyway.

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2011, 02:54:10 am
content: Tungsten Carbide cutters. Schmitz make a range of them as well.

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2011, 06:32:12 am
content: Quote from: Precisiontools on July 31, 2011, 02:54:10 amBy the way, since you have seen these cutters in person, what about handle shape? Thin, medium, cushy - which is most comfortable? I kind of like comfy handles.

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2011, 10:38:38 am
content: All the Schmitz range is ESD compliant so you don't have to care about it with them. They have three types of handle grips; dual component, thermoplastic textured and dip coated. Dual component are the ones for you. They have a hard and durable black thermoplastic base with a nice soft, tacky grip surface. They are very nice to use but I'm not sure if Knipex's multi-component grips are a touch better, but I would go Schmitz from my experience in using and testing them all. Better selection, directed at the electronic industry, cheaper and in my opinion, a better tool steel across their range.

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2011, 12:15:09 pm
content: Quote from: Precisiontools on July 31, 2011, 10:38:38 amI broke down and wrote to Schmitz about shipping and order procedures to the UK - their site is all in German.ESD doesn't worry me much, I have to admit, but after days when I have to do a lot of cutting even Lindstroms make my hand hurt a bit, so I am now a cushy handles person (yes, I am a wimp).Schmitz should hire you as a rep - you really know how to make people want their stuff.Thanks a lot for all the advice, it was really useful in making a decision.

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2011, 12:27:13 pm
content: Yep, I used to do a lot of assembling and good handles make all the difference.I like and sell Schmitz but I'm not a fan boy. If there is something I dont like about them I will let people know, and if I find something better I will sell/use it. I went through these issues with Knipex!

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2011, 12:34:49 pm
content: Quote from: img on July 31, 2011, 06:32:12 ammaybe this is comfy (photochopped image) if someone know if there's such thing.

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2011, 01:05:22 pm
content: And while we are on the subject of scissors...if you think it sucks dropping over $50 for a pair of pliers, spare a thought for what hairdressers have to fork for a good pair of scissors...http://www.staysharpshears.comOver $1000 anyone?

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2011, 01:08:29 pm
content: Quote from: Precisiontools on July 31, 2011, 01:05:22 pmNah, that's the price at which they AREN'T selling.

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2011, 01:11:59 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 31, 2011, 12:34:49 pmFor cutting leads, I doubt that this is comfy. Looks painful, in fact. Consider how your hand would have to be positioned to be able to cut leads with scissors - this doesn't sound optimal, imo.

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2011, 01:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: img on July 31, 2011, 01:08:29 pmYou would be surprised...my hairdresser has a $800 pair. Ask next time you get a trim.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2011, 01:44:08 pm
content: Quote from: Precisiontools on July 31, 2011, 01:28:05 pmwhat they are made of? silver? how much they charge for a cut/trim? if i can get my investment back at around 10 cut, then i will not hesitate getting one. its not a surprise for such a price, i got wahl clipper, camel scissor and trimmer (japanese stainless) at $100++ only for my kids (non profit use). the shop owner said its 50% discount, i dont know if its a bluff. but looking around the shop can be "jaw dropping" while looking at the price of a simple item.

author: comox
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2011, 03:29:24 pm
content: Quote from: img on July 30, 2011, 08:00:30 pmThe Erem 622n cutters (pictured above) cost £33 from Farnell UK. The needle nose pliers cost £41.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2011, 05:04:46 pm
content: re: scissors and tools with loop handlesCan't stand any of 'em as I have a lot of arthritis in my fingers and thumbs. They're always too small because metal costs money, and the surfaces aren't shaped at the right angles to be comfortable. That type of handle hurts like heck! Maybe that's what the hairdressers are paying for- all day comfort so they can continue to work. It's something you never consider when you're young. Enjoy it when everything works right because getting older sucks.

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 07:37:46 pm
content: Quote from: Precisiontools on July 31, 2011, 02:54:10 amA couple of questions from reading Schmitz catalogue.1. Ignoring 'special bevel' option, their cutters are available in no bevel, fine bevel, 'normal' bevel - I think I'll go for fine bevel. I am worried that the no bevel version will die very quickly.2. Relieved jaws or not?3. What's your opinion of the oblique tip cutters (p.11 in catalogue) and the SMD stuff (p.16-17)?4. What's your opinion of 4217HS22 (non-serr microfine jaws), 4416HS22 (long jaws bent at tip), 4337HS12 (wire-benders - cute)?My shopping list so far:3122HS22 or 3132HS223222HS22 or 3232HS224212HS224214HS22Maybes:4416HS224217HS224337HS12oblique tip cutters and SMD stuff (never owned, hence open to suggestions/advice)Did I miss anything obvious?Thanks!

author: eliocor
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 09:31:21 pm
content: You didn't say what the usage will be for!This is especially true for bevel type.Please tell us what will be the material you will use with those cutters...BTW, I would buy the following:1) WITHOUT BEVEL2) RELIEVED JAWS (much easier to cut in difficult positions): read the first 25 pages of the followingdocument3) I own some oblique tip cutters: I use them very rarely, but in some situations they are really useful. Buy the SMD ones, not the others!4) instead of 4337, I'd prefer the 4231. I'd suggest also 4225/4221 for wire bending too.5) the most interesting items in the catalog are the Tungsten-carbide cutters. Instead I'm really not so fond of the box joint used by Schmitz cutters.

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2011, 02:28:43 am
content: Quote from: img on August 02, 2011, 07:37:46 pmFine Bevel is a good call.I dont see any need for relieved jaws. I'd prefer a little more meat in the blades for extra strength. If you find your having issues in tight areas, get a small jaw set later - more useful I have found.Oblique cutters? My theory with tools is; if you cant think of a need for them then you probably wont use them. I have a pair and have never used them more than a few times. Your needs might be different.SMD? I have always found good tweezers to be more useful...that's just me. I'm not sure if I would be comfortable "cutting" a SMD from a PCB - too much risk to the tracks. Having said that though I have never used them. As I said, tweezers and iron on SMD re-work for me. Others here with more SMD rework experience might like to comment...The 4217HS22 would be a good investment if you are doing fine work.If you feel the need for the bent jaws (I have them and have found them useful), think about your application and also consider the 4413HS22 (the one above it in the catalogue). I have found the bend further down the jaw more useful. Think: inserting or removing a small ceramic cap into a PCB with taller components around them. You know what I think about smooth jaws too eh?I have also had wire benders (a bit different to the ones you mentioned) for a long time - never used them! Tools for jewellers, not technicians!As mentioned...the golden rule is; if you cant see a glaring need or application for a tool then it will probably sit in you case and do nothing. Not that there is anything wrong with this, sometimes its nice to own and fondle tools.But you have to be a bit of a nut bag like me! Are you a collector? Are your tools a hobby? Are they a passion? If not and you just want nice quality tools to help you earn a living or enjoy a hobby then I say follow the golden rule.Most people would be happy with:3222 HS 22 Tapered head side cutter.4212 HS 22 Short nose snipe, serrated jaw4412 HS 22 Long nose snipe, serrated jaw (or smooth if that's the way you slide)And might chuck in a bent jaw if the individual sees a need for it and maybe a smaller head cutter as well.Tungsten carbide are only needed for cutting harder materials like Kevlar, optic fibre (?) or various steel wires.Dont listen to me though, buy what you think you need. You can always buy more later and ping what you dont like/use on ebay.Or you can just keep them and fondle.Cheers

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2011, 08:19:59 am
content: Quote from: eliocor on August 02, 2011, 09:31:21 pmAh, sorry, doh!PCB work, cutting legs of components.Comfy handles are wanted, not the thin coated ones, and not handles that are too small, if you know what I mean.

author: img
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2011, 08:53:20 am
content: Quote from: Precisiontools on August 03, 2011, 02:28:43 amOh, I do like nicely made tools, guilty as charged, pleasure from using and fondling is about 50/50 for me.And I HATE smooth jaws!So 'fine bevel' and 'no relieved jaws' options are taken onboard.I never cut off SMDs from boards either, just got curious when saw the tools.And I understand what you mean about getting pliers to do tweezers' job, no need for that, that's why we have tweezers.My shortlist:Part 1 - 'definitely yes'3122HS223222HS224212HS224412HS22Part 2 - 'fondle list'4217HS22 - smooth jaw is a turn-off, otherwise I really like them4413HS22 - are you sure you meant the smooth-jaw ones, not 4414HS22?Thank so much, I feel you understand my disease!

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2011, 09:38:53 am
content: Quote from: img on August 03, 2011, 08:53:20 amSorry, your right with the 4414HS22, serrated all the way...Your selection looks like it would cover all bases to me. Post up an evaluation when you get them.Looking throughhttp://www.garagejournal.com/forum/is always good for the addicted. Not electronic related but good for a look sometimes.Cheers.