Imaging old TE disk drives for backup, repair and upgrades - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 02:15:10 pm
content: Some older test equipment used hard drives. I've been using the old DOS DriveImage and Ghost to image them.I've ran into snags before with XP and Windows 2000 using NTFS where after imaging a drive, the new drive will not boot. This is after making sure the partition is set to active. In these cases, it seems I am normally able to boot from a floppy, CD or FLASH and have that boot the imaged drive.In these cases, booting the Windows install CD, using the recovery console and FIXMBR and FIXBOOT will not allow the imaged drives to boot. When I setup my LeCroy 8500A, to get around this problem I ended up installing Windows XP clean, then installing all of LeCroy's software.I had to replace a drive in an old HP logic analyzer who's original drive was starting to fail. That system required a specific hard drive but the image worked flawless.It seems that when I was using WinNT & 2K on my PCs and imaging the drives, I would would always restore to the same drives (backup) and never had a problem.I will use the 1:1 so the partitions are not resized. Guessing the problem is tied to the differences in the drives. In many cases, we may no longer have access to the TEs software to be able to bring a system up from scratch.All of my Google searches just show the typical recovery. If you have dug into the details on how to solve the boot problems and have a work around, please post your findings. Thanks.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 03:54:05 pm
content: dd tool in Linux typically works. If you want just boot it in a VM. It's easier to access drives on a real boot so sometimes booting from USB into a Linux OS is easier.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2020, 01:52:10 am
content: The drives don't follow a standard for the jumpers. I've seen them where have no jumpers makes them a master, and some require a jumper to become a master. Some equipment does not take this into account. I've had to cut the pins and hard wire them.While I have not tried any LINUX tools, I have tried Acronis (SP) and telebye as well. In these cases, the problem doesn't seem to be with the imaging software but I suspect because it's physically a different drive. Seems like I had some workarounds back then. At one point I started using BootNG.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2020, 02:08:35 am
content: I've started using a real drive imaging/cloning system but for PC I've also tried the standard softwares with no success but dd worked fine. The master/slave thing can be a real pain, especially when you can't find data on the drive and it's not on the label. I was having similar troubles with the drive for my Prema multimeter from the 90s(CHS dos 6.1 drive). Newer windows systems would say they copied the drive(few different tools including acronis) bit for bit and they looked good on those systems but refused to boot in the meter. On a windows 95 system I had the software refused to clone. I can't recall which version of software I was using with a DOS system but it didn't work either.Both dd and my logicube omniclone 5xi were able to copy the drive over to different sized drives and booted straight away. The omniclone has options for expanding or not, and dd just copies right over. If the drive is larger you don't get more space without more work. I'd strongly suggest giving dd a shot since it's free to do so(aside from the time) since I have had good luck with it.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2020, 02:45:38 am
content: Have you tried using the Image All option with Ghost?I use Macrium Reflect Free for cloning duties these days, maybe it would work in this case.

author: sorenkir
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2020, 10:44:16 am
content: Hi,For the backup of my Prema 8017 HDD (very specific DOS partition table), the only way I have found was to mount the hard drive on a PC motherboard with IDE interface and use Ubuntu Live to clone the drive (with dd). USB adapter, usual cloning softwares were not able to clone the HDD.See this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/prema-8017-hdd-backup/Michel.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2020, 11:01:58 am
content: Invest in a hardware clone box. They are like 50$. I have not had a clone fail yet.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2020, 01:14:50 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 31, 2020, 11:01:58 amPlease post a link to the unit you are recommending.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2020, 05:54:35 pm
content: Made by Startech : review herehttps://www.expertreviews.co.uk/technology/50822/startech-usb-to-ide-sata-standalone-hard-drive-duplicator-dock-reviewi got mine off ebay years ago. was like 60$. it does anytinhg to anything.it hasfull size ide IDE + 4 pin powerlaptop ideSATAUSByou can copy from anything to anything and it does not need a computer. The master side is write protected so if you go in through usb you can not write to that drive. ideal to make sure you don't goof up.It also copies drives with errors. it just skips the problematic sectors and goes on.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2020, 06:45:40 pm
content: Ad was from 2011. I wasn't able to locate one on eBay or Amazon.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2020, 08:08:02 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on January 30, 2020, 02:15:10 pmI haven't had issues with old HP logic analyzer hard drives. The 16500B/C might be a little picky about the drive, but the replacement drive doesn't have to be an exact replacement. Same for the 1660 and 1670 series. I have replaced the IDE drives with CF cards in a couple of them. Those aren't really worth the bother of cloning the old drive to a replacement drive. They are easy enough to boot from floppy and then initialize the replacement drive and copy all of the system files to make it bootable from the new hard drive.The 16600 and 16700 series which run HP-UX 10.20 can be rebuilt with a blank replacement SCSI hard drive by booting from the recovery CD. 50-pin SCSI drives are hard to find, I use 68-pin SCSI drives with a 50/68-pin adapter.The 1680, 16800, and 16900 series which run Windows XP can be rebuilt with a blank new hard drive by booting from the recovery CDs/DVD. The CD/DVD images are no longer available on the Keysight FTP site, except on request. The images are available elsewhere.The 16800 and 16900 series which run Windows Embedded Standard 7 will be an issue if the hard drive completely dies or is missing. There is no recovery media available to restore WES7. Instead the factory image on the boot partition can be restored from a recovery image stored on the recovery partition. If the drive dies or is missing, or the recovery partition is corrupted, you would normally need to contact Keysight service. I recently picked up a WES7 version of 16800 series logic analyzer with a missing hard drive. Fortunately I had another WES7 version of a 16800 series logic analyzer from which I could copy the recovery partition to a new drive to install in the one missing its drive, and then boot into the recovery mechanism to restore the boot partition from the recovery image. Copying the recovery partition manually instead of trying to clone the entire drive is more work, but eliminates issues with replacing a drive with one of a different size. Also, it is possible to create a bootable USB flash drive using the standard Windows 7 repair disk files, and then add a copy of the recovery partition files. Then a WES7 version of 16800 or 16900 series could be booted from the USB flash drive to recreate a bootable system hard drive. I'll have to write up some detailed notes on how I went about doing that. It's not too complicated, just took a little while to figure out all of the necessary steps. Too bad Agilent/Keysight didn't provide a USB recovery flash drive with these systems, although I suppose if they did they would probably go missing.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2020, 08:39:36 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on January 31, 2020, 06:45:40 pmCould always buy a logicube omniclone(I have a 5xi as mentioned) as well if you're looking for a stand alone solution. Depending on options they will even attempt to read sectors that initially fail. My Prema hard drive was failing but it was able to get a good copy. With dd it took me 10 images before I got a good one.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2020, 08:42:32 pm
content: My usual go-to is a USB 3.0 universal hard drive adapter (40 pin IDE, 44 pin 2.5" IDE, SATA) and Macrium Reflect free version on a host computer. I've imaged, transfered, and restored images back to Windows 98 based machines. No real repair functionality that I know of, but seems to do a fine job coping a drive so it's good for backups or for moving to SSDs (my usual reason).I've had some issues moving to CF based solutions or IDE to SATA adapters or similar, but I've had no issues transferring an original drive to an SSD with the appropriate interface. Just haven't tried imaging an NT4 disc yet, but I don't see why it would work any different.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2020, 08:47:37 pm
content: I didn't have any luck with my Prema HDD using macrium reflect(paid). There seems to be something these softwares are missing for some of these older drives.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2020, 09:10:18 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on January 30, 2020, 02:15:10 pmI have similar experiences and the root cause seems to be that some BIOSses tend to map the sectors/cylinders for IDE drives differently so the data end up in a different place. If the equipment is DOS/Windows based I always do the disk imaging on the system itself. Sometimes changing the sector mapping (LBA etc) in the hard drive setup helps. Another option is to use a parallel port Laplink cable to transfer the data onto a different computer also running Ghost and save the image on that system. Ofcourse both the test equipment and PC will need a physical parallel port.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2020, 02:55:59 am
content: Quote from: gslick on January 31, 2020, 08:08:02 pmI believe that one I mentioned that worked with only a few drives was a 500C.I have an old LeCroy DSO that uses MFM. There were only a couple of drives it would work with. I ended up putting one of the supported drives on a LA and comparing the signals to a more common drive, then modifying the drive to mimic it. That scope is still in operation today.Quote from: nctnico on January 31, 2020, 09:10:18 pmSome of the old equipment I've worked on wouldn't allow it. The LeCroy DSO I mentioned uses PSOS, is 68000 based in a VME chassis. Repairing and maintaining this old equipment can be difficult without the aid of a time machine, but I also find it rewording.I would not be surprised if these problems are not BIOS related. One thing is certain, the more modern OSs and PCs are much easier to get running.

author: YetAnotherTechie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2020, 01:20:20 pm
content: Some comments from my experience:Using an external usb enclosure for imaging with windows vista and later as host is dangerous. There's a little known feature known as readyboost, that does an invisible write/read/erase of a 3MB(aprox) file *every time* you plug a new removable usb drive to see if it's usable for it, therefore technically corrupting the image*. Also, most enclosures don't pass all the commands, so you can't check if the drive has a HPA partition, and some don't even pass the very first sector.*It's corrupted because it's been modified, if you need to unerase/recover a file then your chances are greatly reduced.

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 01:57:45 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 01, 2020, 02:55:59 amShould I PM you on this Joe?I have a 7200 with a flaky 30MB HDD (never quite sure if the correct name for them is MFM or ESDI), I'd be interested in your modifications if you're willing to share them and that the alternative HDD you used is easier to source than the original Winchester.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 06:21:38 pm
content: Quote from: shakalnokturn on February 02, 2020, 01:57:45 amAs far as I know, the 7200 would only support a 20M drive. Keep in mind, there are MAJOR differences between the 7200 and the 7200A. The drives will have an interface like the following:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST506/ST412Video shows my 7200 about half way through. Is this what you have?This is the 7200A

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 09:43:43 pm
content: 7200A: PC, x86, color VGA, Trinitron, SCSI.7200: 680x0, vector, amber monochrome, ESDI (or whatever similar interface with seperate control and data buses).They share the same box, noise and plugins. Still great machines to use if you're already deaf.I have the monochrome 7200, I'll take your word for it on the HDD size, I don't have the scope at hand to check.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 10:41:23 pm
content: Quote from: shakalnokturn on February 02, 2020, 09:43:43 pmYour 7200 should have a Miniscribe 8242 or a Kalok KL320 drive. The drive I am using is a modified Seagate ST225. Looking over my notes, I can't seem to find where I documented the mod. If you end up with a good ST225 and would like to modify it, I can pull the drive an see what I did. You would still need the installation disks.There were some mods that you could make to the 7242/A plugins to get them working in the 7200A.

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2020, 01:38:33 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 02, 2020, 10:41:23 pmThe last ST225 I came across was from an Atari ST external HDD enclosure that I was hoping to reuse for the 7200 scope. It turned out the heads had been torn off and were dancing around on the disk's surface.Because it's remotely on-topic, for those who are curious or may need the information one day, the full ESDI specifications (that being an evolution and standardisation after the ST506/ST412 interfaces) are available here:https://www.t10.org/ftp/x3t9.2/document.87/87-105r2.pdf

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 09:59:40 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 31, 2020, 05:54:35 pmhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/233496521390237$ used...

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 11:38:28 pm
content: Even at that price, it may have been worth it. As a matter of fact I was working on an old bit of test equipment today with an IDE drive. Points if you can guess what that old relic was.For now, I still use my home made cable in my old desktop PC.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 01:24:03 am
content: I was able to backup the old arb I was working on using Drive Image. It's pretty old but puts my arb to shame..Working on some old test equipment now that only supports a particular drive select.Soldered a jumper to allow me to image it and then install it. It's too bad manufactures didn't all follow a common standard. After being warned about using SSDs in my old LeCroys but running them for many years, I've pretty much settled on using SSDs in most of my old equipment.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 01:31:08 am
content: I forgot to mention that I used BootitNG from Terabyte. If you go to their main page and select the free software download area, they have some tools that may be helpful.https://www.terabyteunlimited.com/bootit-next-generation.htm

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 07:59:00 am
content: I got hold of one those StarTech "Unidupdock" duplicators at the end of last week for 46€ posted.I'll try the HDD from this topic (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gould-ultima-nicolet-accura-dso-software-needed/msg2724344/) on it, but I'm not expecting much, the first attempt with Linux and dd took days with close to no results.I do have the original partition sizes, some of the user data partition but nothing usable from the system partition.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 07:05:27 pm
content: I have not heard of Nicolet in many years. We used some of their old 2090 DSOs. If they are still in business, have you tried to contact them directly to see if they could help?

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2020, 10:21:33 am
content: I did some research on them, they have been bought-up a couple of times, IIRC their remains are owned by Thermo Fisher Scientific.I have not tried asking them for help, I never have much luck when getting in touch with TE manufacturers.