SN series crimpers and 30A battery terminals - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2024, 06:52:30 pm
content: Two part question. First part curiosity.Curiosity: The SN crimpers have a seemingly wide choice of jaws that can be interchanged. Is there a complete list of the jaws anywhere? Was it originally a design from a specific manufacturer that's now become "generic"?Question: I'm looking to be able to crimp these30A round lug terminals. The seller pointed me to theHS series crimper with the 2030A jaw. I'm assuming this jaw won't fit a SN crimper. I was hoping to find a pair of SN jaws that could crimp these without needing to buy yet another crimper.I'm aware of Matt Millman's excellent page on all things "Dupont" crimper, I'm not sure if there is anything similar for a wider variety of crimp types?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2024, 11:25:44 pm
content: 1) Do not buy those lugs but buy real ones like from JST, TE connectivity, etc. The ones with a tubular section to crimp the wire in called 'ring terminal'2) Buy a crimper suitable for these lugs.At these currents, you don't want to take any chances. Especially if this is for a commercial project.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2024, 12:33:08 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 01, 2024, 11:25:44 pmIt is 12V automotive use. Hobby.If anyone can answer the questions asked (versus ones not asked) I'd appreciate it.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2024, 12:57:06 pm
content: I second ntcnico’s advice, and here’s why: closed-barrel terminals are a bit less fickle about the tool used.But no matter what, crimping is always a thing that requires a good match of terminal, wire, and tool. You can’t fudge it or you end up with poor crimps that will fail, and in the case of high-current connections, could lead to fire.Quote from: dorkshoei on June 01, 2024, 06:52:30 pmI have never found a comprehensive list. Some AliExpress vendors have large lists that come close, though. However, thequalityof the information in those lists is highly questionable, since the Chinese routinely suggest crimp tools for terminals they are categorically incompatible with.Quote from: dorkshoei on June 01, 2024, 06:52:30 pmSome years ago, I came across what I believe was the source of the original designs of the SN-28 and SN-48 tools. But I stupidly didn’t save it, and I have been unable to locate it since. But the -28 referred to 2.8mm spades (Faston), -48 to 4.8mm spades.The SN and HS style handles are fundamentally the European designs, afaik. It wouldn’t surprise me if they originated with Pressmaster or something. But we’d have to do some serious digging in old patents to find out.Quote from: dorkshoei on June 01, 2024, 06:52:30 pmIt won’t, they’re a totally different die size. But even within one size of jaw, the dies aren’t entirely consistent, so you may run into incompatibility between manufacturers. (I have.) It’s frankly easier — and often only slightly costlier — to buy a whole new tool.Quote from: dorkshoei on June 01, 2024, 06:52:30 pmEven if you could find SN jaws for that terminal, you probably wouldn’t want to: that size and type of terminal requires a lot of force to crimp, and the SN tool’s short-handle design means you need a lot of hand force. The larger HS style tools are easier on the hands for larger terminals. However, if you get the closed-barrel terminals ntcnico and I both recommend instead, you could get an SN-06 indent die. (The indent style concentrates all the force on a small area, so you don’t need as much force as it takes to fold in an open-barrel crimp.)Quote from: dorkshoei on June 01, 2024, 06:52:30 pmNot really. He has other pages covering a few other types of crimps.Quote from: dorkshoei on June 02, 2024, 12:33:08 amThe voltage isn’t the issue, it’s the high current. If you actually need the 30A, then you can’t fuck around with the crimp, as you could cause a fire. In a commercial product that becomes a liability, but even for a hobby, causing fires is really something you don’t want.If you don’t need the high current, and just selected that lug due to its hole dimensions, then there are better solutions (lugs with large holes, but for small wire).Quote from: dorkshoei on June 02, 2024, 12:33:08 amThat isn’t a good attitude to have, for two reasons:1. People ask and suggest things with good reason. They may know things you didn’t know to ask, but that you really do need to know.2. It comes across as entitled. This is a public discussion forum, not a paid tech support consultancy. You do not get to dictate the direction the discussion goes. It’s OK to ask people to answer residual unanswered questions, but it’s not cool to tell people not to add info you didn’t ask for.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2024, 03:04:11 pm
content: I've hit the same problem that tooki describes: additional dies do not fit the low-cost tool frames precisely, and the tolerances are broken. With some dies, the tool doesn't fully shut!The low-cost tools are fine with the dies they come with for low-current, non-critical work where you can't be sure that the wire will not pull out or loosen over time. But for any of the basic electrical-type connectors (ring terminals, spade, etc.) where you're not carrying non-critical signals, one may as well buy a slightly better tool, even for home use.I'm sure there are better suggestions, but for example, the Knipex MultiCrimp works out to about $66 per crimp style (for the tool version that comes supplied with 5 dies). I bought it for home use because of the tubular crimp lugs, and I only later used all the other dies, and I think it was worth it.The Knipex MultiCrimp dies are mainly for the typical lugs/spades/ferrules etc. Its limitation is that there are not many dies for other types of connectors, but I think it's good for the range that it does. I don't want a single tool for all crimps anyway. It's a hassle changing out dies if the die-swapping method is not fast (it is very fast with the MultiCrimp).The photo shows the indent-type crimp die on the MultiCrimp alongside a similar 'Pressmaster MCT' die. The Pressmaster tool can accommodate many dies, but again, you may find it irritating to keep swapping dies, and eventually, you might want an additional tool frame or a completely different tool for other connectors.Sticking to the ultra-low-cost tool frames for additional dies is (I believe) not a viable strategy, although it may be initially tempting.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2024, 04:08:48 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 02, 2024, 12:57:06 pmUnsurprisingly I take a different position.People also generally ask initial questions with "good reason". This is my initial default assumption when trying to respond to someone. I have also found people often have specific reasons for asking what they asked (but didn't feel the need to elaborate).I have no issue with someone providing an alternate opinion or answering "residual unanswered questions" but at least make an attempt to answer the question that was asked. I consider it good forum etiquette. I consider making no attempt whatsoever poor etiquette.I suspect we will have to agree to disagree here.Regardless I thank you for your post,you answered my questionswhile also providing your opinions on alternatives. Much appreciated!

author: Silenos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2024, 04:24:56 pm
content: If the terminal does not have the technology of crimping included by default I would not buy it at all.Like every civilized connector/terminal/w/e available in europe has the parameters with tolerances for mm2/AWG/type of cables, their material, tools (yes, I admit, it is usually a vendor lock advertisment), the damn required torque for screws, handling procedure and so on.I would use such a part of yours only for some random low energy electronics and only if I would not have the real and faster local e-/shop with real terminals available (which is not a case). And would not bother to buy a special tool for it, just hammer it with general purpose crimpers.But your 30 A is no joke, and for this very reason I disadvice the chinesium usage. For crimping - fat chance you will manage to crimp this perfectly with another noname tool, without the finishing touch of a hammer.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2024, 04:45:25 pm
content: Quote from: Silenos on June 02, 2024, 04:24:56 pmThe 'hammer' reminds me of when I was an intern. This was back in the days when mainframes chuck full of TTL and ECL chips where still used and needed 5V power supplies capable of delivering hundreds of amps. One of my jobs was repairing and testing these power supplies. For testing I had to hook them up to a DC-load or just a long piece of wire which ran through the workshop. I noticed the lugs on the cables where quite lose. When confronting my supervisor with that, he said: 'let me fix that' and he went to the workshop and used a hammer to flatten the lugs on an anvil. I guess he never heard of metal bending back. So I politely took the cables from him and used some big ass pliers (with long handles; I think it was used to seal banding for pallets of some sort) to compress / deform the lugs properly. The lugs stayed put properly for the remainder of my internship.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2024, 04:54:55 pm
content: Quote from: Silenos on June 02, 2024, 04:24:56 pmIt's a connection from a motorcycle battery to a home made relay system I added behind the headlight. It has a 30A inline fuse. I previously had used the pictured AliE connectors, I bent them over with heavy duty pliers (which actually seemed pretty secure) and added solder. I know, this is far inferior to a proper crimp and solder is always subject to vibration failure. Again, I know this so you don't need to tell me. After 20,000 miles I have to redo the wiring, nothing failed, rather I am moving things around and need to redo the 4 (FOUR) lug connectors. I don't want to buy a whole new crimping tool.I'm very aware in the world of production crimping that the only correct option is the use of the connector manufacturers prescribed tool used in the manner prescribed by the connector manufacturer. If I bought " JST, TE connectivity, etc" connectors someone here would probably tell me I need to use their custom crimper. Meanwhile in the rest of the world .....Anyways, I see tooki mentioned SN-06 and looking I now see what type of connector this is for. I'd personally always avoided this type, as all the production connectors I see are open barrel crimped. I understood (coming into this) that this style is much harder to correctly/effectively crimp. I was also aware that the 30A connector required considerable effort and so I was also concerned that the SN tool I have would lack leverage even if there was a suitable die. Useful to have this confirmed, thank you Tooki!I was equally interested in the SN-xx crimpers in general. It seems to me that the jaw numbers are almost made up at random by Chinese sellers :-) For example IWISS seems to have originated a SN-025 which has a circular part die for the Dupont insulation crimp. It seems almost like "pick an unused number" and make a jaw but then some of the jaws are 3254 and 2546B which seem odd numbers. Usually there is a reason for something ......

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2024, 09:13:13 pm
content: Quote from: dorkshoei on June 01, 2024, 06:52:30 pmIts usually easier to just get the crimper.These look interesting, don't know if they work with the same style or not:https://www.amazon.com/Insulated-Terminal-Crimper-Connector-Connectors/dp/B07QXNF8XW/Or if you really do want to swap dies in and out, maybe get a branded unit like Klein, $33 for hte frame and $18 for each die:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00788LS0S

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2024, 09:38:02 am
content: Quote from: dorkshoei on June 02, 2024, 04:54:55 pmWell, just because you want something doesn’t mean it’s a realistic expectation.You still haven’t told us what wire you’re crimping, but it’s likely at — or slightly beyond — the absolute limits for an SN-size crimper. For context, that overlaps with the low end of the big crimp tool I have at work, for closed-barrel terminals, which is nearly 2 feet (60cm) long, with handles that open to nearly 90 degrees. (Think bolt cutters.) This is just to set your expectations: it’s gonna take a lot of hand force to do with an SN tool.Quote from: dorkshoei on June 02, 2024, 04:54:55 pm”In the rest of the world” people use the proper tools, because cheap tools either don’t exist, or don’t work properly.I spent a lot of time trying to locate cheap crimpers for different small connectors and cajole them into working well, and it was all for nought: they either don’t work at all, or it’s an unreliable process where minute differences in how you manually position the contact in the tool makes a particular crimp come out fine, or totally unusable. In the end, my best results by far are with a TE crimper, bought brand new on an auction site for $60. (Normal price: nearly $500.)My point is, don’t be condescending and dismissive of people who tell you to use good tools. We aren’t being elitist, we are trying to spare you the frustration and time of dicking around with bad tools.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2024, 03:11:26 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 04, 2024, 09:38:02 amNo-one is being dismissive of good tools. Good. well made tools are a beautiful thing. Fact. I have 4 connections to crimp. If I had more to do, I'd be more interested in a more expensive tool. I suspect you would proceed differently. That is ok. And as I already said, I'm willing to take thepersonal responsibilityof crimping the connections in a less than optimal manner with full knowledge of this fact. Thank you!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2024, 06:26:13 pm
content: Quote from: dorkshoei on June 04, 2024, 03:11:26 pmI said that this came across as “dismissive and condescendingof the peoplewho tell you to use good tools”:Quote from: dorkshoei on June 02, 2024, 04:54:55 pmI’m not sure how one wouldnotinterpret that as dismissive and condescending.I absolutely understand that it makes no sense to buy an expensive tool to make 4 connections with. Few sane people would do that. So what we do instead in this type of situation is either buy pre-terminated wires, find someone to borrow the correct tool from, pay someone to do it for you, or try and find an alternative way of terminating the wire (e.g. choose a different connector that has screw or other solderless, non-crimped terminals, or terminals that crimp with a tool you already have). Of course, some of those options only apply if you have the freedom to choose the connector type; if you need to connect to an existing connector or terminal, then you have to somehow acquire the correct tooling.There might be some entirely better solution to your situation, but since you won’t share the pertinent requirements (like the actual current capabilityneeded— not what it’s fused at now, but what it actually needs), wire size, stud size, etc) we can’t suggest anything.See also:https://xyproblem.info/

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2024, 06:29:55 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 04, 2024, 06:26:13 pmI don't need you to. You're arguing in front of a mirror here. I suggest you move on.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2024, 06:37:08 pm
content: Quote from: dorkshoei on June 04, 2024, 06:29:55 pmA smart person is open (i.e. not dismissive) to options they weren’t aware of.See also:https://xyproblem.info/

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2024, 06:40:55 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 04, 2024, 06:37:08 pmI saw the above link previous time. No need to keep posting it but it's your life.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2024, 06:42:31 pm
content: Quote from: dorkshoei on June 04, 2024, 06:40:55 pmWell you certainly haven’t read it yet, and you should.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2024, 06:57:15 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 04, 2024, 06:42:31 pm

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2024, 11:09:35 pm
content: Quote from: dorkshoei on June 02, 2024, 04:54:55 pmThat is understandable. But even then it is better to use the tubular ring terminals as these are more tolerant. At 30A you are likely looking at 4mm^2 or maybe 6mm^s wires which is out of reach for ratcheted singled hand crimper. There are relatively cheap crimpers available though for heavier lugs like the ones you likely need. This one looks like it can do the job (random Google find):https://www.elecdirect.com/tools/crimp-tools/crimp-tool-for-12ga-4ga-lugs-non-insulated-terminalsBut you'd have to try it first and it might be available for less at other places.