Altium 15 -> 22. Wow that sucks! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 08:40:32 am
content: So we've recently acquired new licenses and I've updated from 15 to 22.What a piece of crap. Literally every click it has to think about something for half a second. And I can't seem to find a way to turn off the idiotic "real time compilation" which stutters the software all the time and causes several second freezes after a major operation.I do appreciate the improvements in the interface, but the performance is abyssmal, despite the fact that it finally can utilize multiple cores. It also has memory leaks, because after <10h of runtime it can eat >14GB of RAM.V15 had its faults, but at least it works more of less smoothly. And the PC is more than adequate to handle probably anything short of rendering 4K in real time, so this is not the issue.Am I alone here?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 08:43:47 am
content: hm.. I had an issue not 5 hours ago today where the latest version of Altium, which I use at work, was running unusually slow.Taking ages when i clicked something.So you may have had the bad fortune of moving to 22 just where a bug was introduced?I use Altium 15 at home for personal stuff and while Altium 22 is maybe a little bit slower, it's not really that notable. Not normally anyway.Anyone else have lag issues with Altium in the last few days?Oh and on the subject of 15 to 22. The keep out layer changes will probably confuse you at first.Keep out is now a "special layer". You can't just move objects to keep out layer by changing their layer property to keep out layer.You have to goTools » Convert » Convert Selected Primitives to Keepouts.You can also convert them back again with a similar option.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 08:51:13 am
content: I know this will sound ignorant, but buy a new PC. If you could afford the license, you can afford the hardware to run it.Go to their product requirements page, ignore the minimum, and buy the recommended setup. Dual monitors and all.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 08:53:23 am
content: I'm running 22 on a 4th generation i7 laptop and it's usable.Obviously it depends on the complexity of your PCBs though.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 09:47:11 am
content: I have been taking Altium updates with extreme caution, thus I have been running always the "before-the-last" version. I wish I had my computer with me so I could tell you the exact version I am using that does not show these delays mentioned by you and Psi.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 03:20:02 pm
content: Quote from: poorchava on June 08, 2022, 08:40:32 amI can't say I've notice the amount of RAM it takes, but performance definitely depends on how many documents you have open. I've been ending up with dozens of documents open at a time lately as I've been bouncing between revising several current projects and referencing old ones and it definitely has an effect, especially PcbDocs. So if you're in a similar situation then closing extraneous documents may help.But yeah, generally I'm ambivalent about AD22 vs AD17ish, there are definitely a number of nice improvements but also a lot more headache just dealing with performance and some regressions in general usability.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 03:37:58 pm
content: The work machine I've used AD21 on didn't seem all that bad, certainly usable, but I appreciate the responsiveness is worse. I attributed that to generally W10 things, because even just normal Office stuff is laggy the same way.Which... not sure what that was exactly, some Thinkpad anyway.Tim

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 03:42:35 pm
content: QuoteI've been on 20,21,22 but somehow still miss AD16 that I spent a lot of time with.It's probably nostalga and if I went back, I'd miss 22.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 10:29:29 pm
content: Quote from: poorchava on June 08, 2022, 08:40:32 amOK but listing the specs is still highly relevant, people with similar machines can then comment.There are a bunch of threads here on slowness issues and possible resolutions, you can dig through them:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/altium-19-slow-performance/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/altium-18-auto-compiling-in-schematic/

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 06:00:26 pm
content: The PC is not an issue. This happens more or less the same on 4th gen i5, i think an 8th gen i7, as well as a thing we use for batch builds that has (IIRC) a 32 core Threadripper.I mean compared to 15 or Pulsonix that I also use a lot this feels like some sort of crappy web app when it has like a 0.5 to 1s lag after I click or use a hotkey, until the function or mode actually activates.I mean I don't expect from an EDA software to be eye-candy, but to be productive, which this is much less than v15. Feels literally like Fusion360 with an 4k parts assembly.

author: SpacedCowboy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 07:40:11 pm
content: I'm running 22.5 on a Ryzen 9, 5950X with 64GB of RAM. It runs well.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 08:14:02 pm
content: A lot of Altium runs on the GPU.. Make sure you have a GPU with lots of dedicated ram and fast DirectX 11 support.Many people complaining about the later versions of altium being slow turn out to be running it on bad graphics hardware. ATI graphics cards have (had last time i checked, this may have been fixed. not altium's problem. ATI problem) issues (image ghosting)Things like DRC and the interactive router are heavily accelerated by the GPU. Altium doesn't really use multi cores except for the offline DRC and output generation. When you are editing schematic or pcb you are banking on the GPU , not the cpu.I'm running latest version on a Zbook Fury . handles even monstrously large boards with 10 layers, 5000 parts and 50cmx32 cm size without even slowing down.Don't run this on an office computer. you need a workstation.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 09:01:04 pm
content: Quote from: poorchava on June 09, 2022, 06:00:26 pmIts still incredibly helpful to provide specs."4th gen i5" doesn't mean much. SSD? how much RAM? GPU?If the slowness is the same across all PCs then look at the links I provided.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 09:04:43 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 09, 2022, 08:14:02 pmOr on a VM, which may not utilize the GPU even if one is present on the host.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 11:00:21 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on June 09, 2022, 09:04:43 pmi've seen people attempting to run altium on a 13 inch macbook under parallels. you have to be mad to do that

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 11:09:52 pm
content: I've seen some people use Altium on PCs with crappy integrated graphics (not nvidia/ati) and have zero issues.While others with similar crappy intergraded graphics have serious crashing issues until they slap a Nvidia card in and everything works fine after that.From what I've seen, if you use a computer without a dedicated NVidia or ATI graphics card it's pretty random if it works or not.

author: SpacedCowboy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2022, 04:44:12 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 09, 2022, 08:14:02 pmMy PC's CPU is pretty awesome for a bookshelf PC (the afore-mentioned 16-core Ryzen-9) which is the black box on the far end of the bookshelf ...... and it has plenty of RAM because I also use it for FPGA/ASIC place/route, but the GPU is pretty pathetic (an old NVIDIA GTX750 Ti, with 2GB of GPU-RAM). I don't have any complaints running Altium either on the native machine - the KVM underneath the big screen links to the PC - or, more commonly, served via MS Remote Desktop to the Mac Studio sitting next to - which has a lot more screen real-estate, making life easier.So if it works well on my almost-decade-old memory-starved GPU, I reckon anything reasonably modern would be fine.The setup there is my WfH "office", in a previous life it was called "the shed at the bottom of the garden", but now it's air-conditioned and insulated, so it's an office . To be honest, Altium works also well served over the 10Gbit ethernet connection to the M1 Max MBP (also with 4K screensin the house in the evening.I'm not really stretching it yet, though. The most I've put it to is maybe a dozen or so chips on a fairly small board (<10cm square) - see below - I only bought it recently because of the Autodesk Eagle debacle and this is the first board I've tried it with.So maybe it slows down a lot as things get more complex, but right now it's snappy and responsive zooming in and out, panning around, and routing stuff. Perhaps I just haven't done anything yet where the GPU would cause me problems[aside: Is it even possible to get images inline ? Those were supposed to actually be where it says 'attach=..' but obviously that didn't work!]

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2022, 06:18:25 pm
content: Quote from: poorchava on June 08, 2022, 08:40:32 amNo, you're not alone, I've read multiple reports of buggy altium that does not work properly on some otherwise normal hardware, but I don't know details.Quote from: poorchava on June 08, 2022, 08:40:32 amYes it is.I'm a KiCad user myself but I invested in a 107cm 4K monitor, and bought a PC with it that can drive it comfortably.I paid EUR1000 for the monitor (Some AORUS 43 something something) and I paid another EUR 700 for the PC (Ryzen 5600G, Mobo, 16GB RAM 500GiB M.2SSD and a power supply) I had to buy loose parts because I fuse to spend a single cent on microsoft crap.But overall, even though my 10-year old PC had plenty enough speed to run anything on my Linux desktop except a 4K monitor, if you do a lot of PCB design, such a monitor is such a productivity boost that it is silly to not buy one. You can even get a decent 43" monitor from LG for EUR600, but I went for a luxurious Q-dot variant.Bottom of the line is that if you are willing to spend EUR 4000 to run some piece of software just to use it for a single year, then it's just silly to not spend some money on decent hardware too, and if you buy that buggy Altium stuff, you first have to go to their support line to ask on what hardware it does or does not run on. I expect to use my new PC for 10 years or longer, so that is less then EUR200 per year, which is 5% of the cost of your software. I do advise to get a big monitor. All those tiny dots with added scaling factors to magnify icons and text is apple rubbish marketing. Ideal dot size for normal working distance (60cm) is about 0.17mm to 0.22mm. Smaller dots are useless because you can't see them. (Also depends on age and deterioration of your eyes).If you can fit it on your desk, an extra smaller monitor is also useful. That way you can keep the PCB maximized on the big monitor, wile using the smaller for the schematic, PDF datasheets, internet and other stuff.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2022, 06:29:55 pm
content: i use a 4 monitor setup.laptop screen for email and other connectivity (teams, zoom meetings etc) to keep openleft monitor for browser (digikey/mouser/datasheet search) , pdf viewer and whatnot + some altium control panelsmiddle monitor for pcb. this one is in front of my nose.right monitor for schematicendlessly shuffling windows is very counterproductive.don't get screens that are TOO large, otherwise it's like watching a tennis game... you get neck pain. One monitor should cover your field of view WITHOUT having to move your head. so screen size depends on distance form your nose to screen.if you wear glasses : make sure everything remains sharp when moving eyes. glasses tend to lose their adjusting abilities towards the edges. result of form over function. last time i went to the optometrist i walked in with my video microscope and a circuit board with 0402's and some other small parts. i have 'working glasses' that allow me to work correctly for soldering , reading the very fine print on 0402 and 0603 and see the screens correctly. they are sharp in a relatively narrow band. anything beyond 1 meter is already starting to blur.i have regular glasses as well.