15 yr old boy dies attempting to construct a Jacobs ladder - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 12:20:03 pm
content: I just read about this yesterday. The article talks about them finding a mircowave battery pack plugged into the outlet. I assume the reporters just didn't know it was a transformer. I am surprised it does not happen more often with how many people are trying to measure the output voltages of their MOTs with their DMMs.http://nypost.com/2016/04/20/teen-kills-himself-trying-youtube-science-experiment/http://www.fox19.com/story/31771052/police-teen-electrocuted-performing-youtube-experiment-morgan-woceichowski

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 12:38:36 pm
content: I set my house on fire with a Jacobs ladder built using a neon transformer when I was about that age. I got it put out by the time the fire trucks arrived. That was over 50 years ago.

author: MatthewMorgan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 12:39:48 pm
content: The grounddad is asking for censorship because they did not monitor they child:"Youtube was the culprit. It needs to be stopped. We need to monitor what's being put out to our kids," added the grandfather. "There's no going back. This can enlighten other parents too."

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 12:42:55 pm
content: To be honest I'm not surprised this sort of thing doesn't happen more often. Been there, done the Jacobs ladder, Tesla coil thing and Cockroft Walton multipliers as a kid but with boiler ignition transformers, still enough amps available to kill. I was sensible and knew what I could or could not touch safely.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 12:45:49 pm
content: I think some youtubers really should be better att explaining the dangers and proper safety procedures when posting videos of dangerous experiments. Things like this are bound to happen and people will blame youtube, science and engineering and call for censorship.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 01:05:25 pm
content: That's terribly sad, I really hope it's not repeated.I do believe there's a duty of care to make people aware of the dangers of this sort of experiment but I believe it should be on the shoulders of the video creators, not the host.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 01:27:31 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on June 28, 2016, 01:05:25 pmAbsolutely agree. The host is just providing a platform and it would be impractical to expect them to have competence in every subject presented, let alone the responsibility to intercede.The video producer, however, should be more than aware of the risks - and should, IMO, berequiredto address safety issues as part of their presentation, especially when there can be an interest from viewers with absolutely no practical experience in a field.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 01:42:45 pm
content: Quote from: apis on June 28, 2016, 12:45:49 pmTeach children the dangers of electricitybeforephysics class in high school.Mehdi Sadaghdar is doing a good job at showing the dangers though.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 02:18:04 pm
content: SadEven as a young teenager (long before the WWW) I knew that electricity is dangerous above a few tens of volts or at high currents. I had a Neon sign transformer and I did experiment with it, but I always had it on an insulating surface, stepped back, plugged it in and switched it on at the wall outlet, and unplugged it before working on any part of the circuit. I also used a shorting stick on any HV capacitors before handling them. I'm still here because I didn't want to become a crispy critter so was careful and methodical, especially when working with stuff like my 1600V dry battery bank.Banning electrical videos from Youtube will not help, as the information is out there in so many other places including books and university websites, (e.g.http://wonders.physics.wisc.edu/jacob-s-ladder.htm) often with no safety warnings.At the end of the day, its the parents responsibility to teach their kids to assess risks and consequences, and forbid excessively dangerous activities for their individual experience level. Excessive caution on the part of the parents is counterproductive as that produces a young adult who is at risk as soon as they are old enough to ignore their parents and 'cut loose'. Safety lessons in school can help, but the bright kids that are most at risk are often several years ahead of their grade in subjects that interest them so are likely to be experimenting before they've had the safety lessons.

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 02:27:03 pm
content: Surely there must also be a high level of parental responsibility too.I was interested in electronics from about the age of nine.I was encouraged but was also banned from anything that involved the mains.I'll confess that I disobeyed and got a shock.I did however gain a very healthy respect for electricity after that day.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 02:36:39 pm
content: Quote from: apis on June 28, 2016, 12:45:49 pmOne of my friends in school electrocuted himself and that was long before anyone knew what internet was. Heck, none of the (personal/home) computers availablea at that time could even play video.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 02:39:40 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on June 28, 2016, 02:18:04 pmIt's sounds so easy to just blame the parents as they are ultimately the final authority and responsibility over their under 18 children. I just recall my youth and experiments. My parents just had not a clue about electronics but luckily they let me do my thing pretty much as I pleased. Most of my knowledge at the time came from electronic magazines and library books. Those 'information sources' at least had some level of editing and warnings you don't see on too many youtube videos. I blew open my share of AC circuit breakers and that too added to my 'learning curve'.The new 'information age' has brought both great advantage and great danger as it's completely unsupervised. I don't have any magic solution but can only observe that I continue to live in interesting times as the wise old Chinese proverb goes.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 02:45:37 pm
content: To some degree, it is their fault as they didn't manage to proprly educate their son about the dangers of electricity, or maybe that's what they are thinking right now.to some degree it is the youtuber's fault if he didn't provide safety awareness in its videosto some other degree it may be the kid's fault, who didn't care to followI am pretty sure it was just an accident, we surely don't know what really happened. it is nobody's fault.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 02:54:08 pm
content: Also its the WWW global village effect. Tragedies like this Ohio kid may even have been more common but you typically didn't hear about them unless you were in the same town, or at least the same country for specialist hobbies. I'd lay odds that most of us had heard of at least one local incident where a kid was killed or seriously injured doing something dangerous and stupid, before we left school. A small percentage of bright kids have always been lost because they had more curiosity than common sense - this probably goes back to before the origins of Homo Sapiens as a species.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 04:57:35 pm
content: Quote from: 3db on June 28, 2016, 02:27:03 pmAnd therein lies the issue, teenagers will always take risks. I stripped down many things, some of them live, to 'see how it works' including the (rented) television in my late pre-teen and teenage years.And when I got a shock, I also learned to respect electricityFortuantely, I didn't have the 'net to encourage me to find a neon sign transformer and all the books I had access to at the local library had dire warnings so I survived

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 05:15:13 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on June 28, 2016, 02:54:08 pmThis is almost certainly the case. I wonder how many lives have been saved by the information now so freely available rather than experimenting in almost total ignorance?I can clearly remember exploring in my grandfathers workshop on his farm when I was maybe 9 years old and finding some live rounds buried in the back of a draw full of junk (small calibre, not shotgun). I clamped one in a vice and had a hammer in my hand ready to hit the percussion cap when I started having strong doubts and decided it was a bad idea. I shudder even thinking about it now, but I bet many young lads wouldn't have given it a second thought.I also had more than my share of shocks as a youngster, though primarily from car ignition coils and often deliberately inflicted on myself, my brother and various friends.

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 05:49:22 pm
content: Risk and endeavour have helped humanity progress.Modern society seems to have forgotten this.IMHO

author: Vgkid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 12:21:21 am
content: Quote from: 3db on June 28, 2016, 02:27:03 pmMy parents did the same, marking the experiments in my Mimms books(that I could not do.)I switched from being interested in electronics, to guns, to cars, to golf. Now we are back to electronics.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 02:08:28 am
content: I don't see a public service announcement with every table saw video on youtube either, yet I don't think there's a tool in existence which has claimed more digits. Should videos for HV experiments contain more warnings, yes. Should that be enforced by youtube rules, not unless we are going to be consistent about it in my opinion. Certainly not law.At the end of the day electricity is likely to teach you respect at some point without killing you, if not ... oh well, that's life.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 02:14:44 am
content: Constructed a 20kV Cockroft-Walton multiplier at age 14, without any supervision or anything. You aren't a child at that age.I wouldn't make a Jacobs Ladder even today, though. No arcs around me, please.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 03:56:11 am
content: Quote from: MatthewMorgan on June 28, 2016, 12:39:48 pmHe backtraced it. Pretty soon he will have the cyberpolice on it and the consequences will never be the same.

author: imidis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 04:18:42 am
content: I think sometimes we all did questionable stuff as a kid, it's amazing how most of us survive. I can remember silly things I tried when I was really young then in teenage years. Whether it's electricity, gun powder, gasoline, crocodiles, snakes. There is a lot of danger out there.

author: karoru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 07:44:43 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 28, 2016, 12:20:03 pmGood Lord, battery pack? I understand that not everyone knows what does transformer look like, but I really wonder if that reporter even saw a battery pack once in his life:DIt reminds me one reporter in Polish newspaper translating mercury (metal) to Merkury (which is a planet in Polish language, actual metal is "rt??"). Idea of planet being leaked from a manufacturing plant struck me as a bit bizarre.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 09:10:26 am
content: Quote from: mikerj on June 28, 2016, 05:15:13 pmFiring a round outside of a chamber is pretty underwhelming. With no chamber pressure, the brass bulges out and the bullet just falls, without even igniting most of the powder. You could be injured by brass shards, but there is too little energy to create actual shrapnel.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 09:24:52 am
content: Quote from: helius on June 29, 2016, 09:10:26 amOh I dunno, I was suspended from school for giving blank rounds to an idiot who thought it was a good idea to hit one with a brick, the shrapnel is, I believe, still lodged in the leg of a school friend over thirty years later.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 12:29:36 pm
content: Always tragic when someone gets killed, but being a teenager is dangerous if you do it right, and some percentage will die (Either this way or on a motorbike, or longboard, falls from height, alcohol, cars).The lack of safety info on youtube videos is somewhat worrying, I see lots of 'how to make rocket candy' type videos that often fail at basic lab safety, or that (almost worse) succeed at doing the lab safety bit but fail at explaining that the mixing is happening in a container that will not fragment, that the clothes are not synthetic, the tools are non sparking and the glasses are shatterproof....At least the books on energetic chemistry tend to detail the precautions, reaction kinetics and the fact that the fume hood exists for a reason.Part of the problem is that in many places schools are now so risk averse that they are unable to expose kids to dangerous things in a controlled environment, so kids do not get the gradual exposure to dangerous things that metalwork class used to teach, same thing for chemistry and physics.There is a certain type of person (and most of us fit the category I suspect) for whom dangerous machines are just an accepted risk, table saws, lathes, mills, high tension, explosives, motorbikes, it is all fun and none if it is good about taking prisoners, and we do a risk assessment and decide if the risk of an accident is justified by the value of the fun, 15 year olds tend to lack the experience to be able to do that assessment.Regards, Dan.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 03:28:50 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on June 29, 2016, 02:08:28 amCorrect. You do not see massive education campaigns in school and on TV about the dangers of running into the road, getting on a bus or even jumping on the bed. All of which have caused death in children. There are no warnings on YT videos on people walking on the beach, where many drown in the water, or walking on the side of a lake, where you also have many deaths from drowning. Up to the parents to have at least done a little explanation about the dangers of things, and if they do not know then they are very likely to know somebody who can look it up and advise them.Sad that the youngster had a fatal accident, but there is a lot more to blame than YT, the parents first of all for either not thinking to do any actual parenting like discuss the things the child does, show interest in what they are actually doing and get involved a little, rather than just ignoring the child and letting them use a computer pretty much unsupervised.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 04:32:11 pm
content: I put this disclaimer at the top of the Description on my flyback transformer Jacob's Ladder video:QuoteBut I have other HV videos where I don't stress safety. I suppose I should go back and edit the descriptions with some strict warnings.Especially on the one where I use a MOT to drive a Tesla Coil.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 06:21:51 pm
content: When I was his age, actually a few years younger, I found a great book in the local library covering topics like Jacobs ladders and Tesla coils. On a school trip to London, first stop was Ralfe Electronics near Paddington to buy some boiler ignition transformers and a few oil filled caps. The library book spelled out the dangers of electricity but so did the RSGB and ARRL handbooks I had been reading. The Jacobs ladder didn't work too well, the plasma wasn't hot enough and the Tesla coil set itself on fire ! My parents were well pissed off not because I could have killed myself but because I knocked out TV reception for quite a large radius including several neighbours TV's.I don't think my parents really understood what I was up to and so that's why I got away with it. Good job they didn't know about the home made gunpowder, cannons and rockets. For those who are aware of the dangers it's easy to point the finger of blame at the parents, YouTube or perhaps his peer group in or out of school. It's easy for us to say "he had a lack of understanding of the dangers", he may have been very well aware of the dangers and it could have been an unfortunate accident but at first sight it doesn't seem so. As regards the whole publishing thing, do you blame the author for the video or do you blame the publisher, YouTube (Google). Nope, it's free information.At the end of the day a young man lost his life, "stupid is as stupid does" harsh but true.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 08:14:25 pm
content: Exactly. Being a teenager is dangerous. Hell, being a kid is dangerous! By all rights, I *should* be dead. Many times over, in fact. I'm sure that's true for all of us. Think about all the close calls, near misses and accidents you've had in your life.Seatbelts, vaccines and dumb luck are why most of us are still breathing today.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 08:16:09 pm
content: There are many things more dangerous than our hobby. But most of them are familiar, well understood dangers. You don't need specialist knowledge to understand the pitfalls. Much of what happens with electricity is magic to most people. When I worked for the power company I had conversations that really believed that we captured sunlight in special bottles and piped it to their homes were it was let out through special faucets called light bulbs.So yes, it would be good to give special warnings for our stuff, for chemistry experiments and for the many other things on youtube that are outside the daily lives of most. But we also have to realize that no matter what warnings we put on stuff there will be those who are adventurous, or stupid or rebellious and won't read or pay attention. Darwin doesn't happen in a vacuum.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 09:15:44 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on June 28, 2016, 01:27:31 pmI can't say I fully agree. As tragic as this is, we're talking about a 15 year old child. Where was the supervision? Whenever I was allowed to "play" with electricity, my father was there teaching me what was right and wrong and as Dave puts it "no touchy".We live in a world where there are already too many disclaimers, warning labels and cautions. No matter how much you try and protect people, there will always be those who are killed or injured (usually out of stupidity). I tend to find most people automatically try and blame others when things go wrong rather than accepting liability themselves.I employ a simple rule in my life; If I don't understand something, I don't touch it.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 09:30:29 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 29, 2016, 09:15:44 pmMy parents spent 95% of their time watching TV, the other 5 spent outside on yard work. The only reason there wasn't a Great Chicago Fire #2 was because they stuffed me in the basement which had a concrete floor, pretty damn hard to catch that on fire.They had no understanding of electricity/electronics, or the dangers. To them it was just another sandbox.

author: imidis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 09:34:34 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 29, 2016, 09:15:44 pmFrom what I understand, his parents had knowledge and well aware of what he was attempting, perhaps not knowledge of the dangers involved.It's easy to blame the internet for everything, I'm sure he watched more than one video and most do have warnings. But, I would say parental interest and supervision would have done well. But it seems as the decades pass parents are less knowledgeable and less interested in their kids hobbies.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 09:44:10 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 29, 2016, 09:15:44 pmWise words, but I can think of several counterexamples. How did these ever become popular, for instance:And there are the standard demonstrations with Whimshurst or Van De Graaf machines, which I doubt are fully understood by the participants.

author: continuo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 10:15:11 pm
content: Kids have always done crazy dangerous things. I remember back when I was a kid they sold a special kind of weed killer in grocery stores called “Unkraut Ex”, which was basically 80% sodium chlorate. This product was very popular among teenagers, they mixed it up with sugar and put it into all kinds of containers for some home made extra loud xxl firecrackers. Some were even dumb enough to fill it into metal pipes and seal them by squeezing the ends in a vice. Lots of incidents all across the country of course, lost hands and even fatalities. There was no internet to blame back then, the “wisdom” was shared by word on the schoolyard. If they want to do something really stupid they always find a way, they don’t need any frickin YouTube for that...

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 10:33:14 pm
content: I'm sure this is not the first youtube video that lead to a death, but it's a little irresponsible to not have a disclaimer up front. Even worse are the pretend electrocution videos.You can't blame the parents, most warn their children multiple times never to play with electricity, but they would have no idea about these experiments themselves.I believe the "battery" would most likely be the HV capacitor not a transformer as everyone is saying.

author: imidis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 11:39:54 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on June 29, 2016, 10:33:14 pmFor all we know, the video or videos he looked at could have well had a disclaimer. They do not know which video(s) or other instructions he was looking at.The most detail I found was a video from the grandfather saying he was gathering parts for quite a while, perhaps if the parents googled electric jacobs ladder they would have seen the many high voltage death/injury warnings, perhaps not. Perhaps if they were with him they could have performed CPR, perhaps not. The blame well, does it really matter? I would actually argue as far as youtube goes, there are quite a few knowledgeable people that makes things safer as they explain and know what they are doing and whats not safe.There are several examples here locally of things. Most mechanics know NOT to trust jacks while working under a car and use both a jack and jack stands, however, someone near here was crushed by his car and died. Perhaps we watched a DIY youtube video, or perhaps they didn't know they should have extra protection holding up the car in case the jack failed.Also, couch surfing, it doesn't take much common sense to tell someone perhaps being on a couch pulled by a car may be a bad idea? But it happens.It's particularly easy to point blame, but I do believe parents are not as knowledgeable and as involved as they once were.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 01:22:37 am
content: I was very dangerous as a kid, but never played with anything more than 120v 15 amps, basically a regular power outlet. Still enough to kill, but at that voltage the odds are pretty good you just get a good jolt... and it happened every now and then.1kv+ High voltage is a whole other beast. Even now I kinda stay clear of that stuff. Not too long ago I was trying to measure the output of a LCD inverter so I can see if it's safe to put my scope on it. Almost blew my DMM, then I tried to build a voltage divider with resistors, but they just blew up. Then I realized I was being dumb, and I can just measure the input side of the transformer instead of the HV side.High voltage also does really weird things, like when I was putting the first lead of the voltage divider on it, it would arc, despite the other end not being connected yet. I still don't know how or why that was happening.I do kinda want to build a tesla coil one of these days though, but I don't really have anywhere I could play around with it, I have too much expensive electronics in my house and my yard is small.

author: karoru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 01:23:29 am
content: Quote from: Shock on June 29, 2016, 10:33:14 pmThese ones... In every public available 'hacker' video I'd try to make a big capital letter disclaimer that THEY'RE EARTH REFERENCED. Connected to chassis via one high voltage diode.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 01:25:07 am
content: Quote from: Shock on June 29, 2016, 10:33:14 pmThose capacitors are insane dangerous and have to be treated even more carefully than a mains source. High voltage on it's own is dangerous, high voltage dumping into something in one shot = wowzers. There's a video of photoninduction where he uses one of these to blow up fruits. Imagine what it does to your flesh. Not something you just leave lying around for your cat to tap around the house as a toy.

author: karoru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 01:34:40 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on June 30, 2016, 01:25:07 amMost danger comes from disassembling them from an actual appliance, because they're connected to the chassis via just the single diode, and it's pretty easy to have one hand on metal chassis during trying to remove them (because people for some reason assume that it'll be galvanic isolated from the rest of the appliance, like your typical HV circuit).

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 01:38:31 am
content: In early 2011 when I was 21 years old, I did some HV experiments with a CRT TV transformer, but I do not think It could harm me. There was not much energy in the power supply. It was not connected directly to mains. The sparks were rather small, also. There was no HV capacitor.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 02:01:03 am
content: Attitudes have changed a lot in just the last few decades. I don't know how I managed to make it through adolescence with nothing worse than a plaster cast, some lacerations and a few minor fractures.When I was around the age of 7 or 8 we upgraded our washing machine and I was given free reign to tear the old one down for fun. I salvaged the drum motor, water pump and switch gear. I experimented by wiring all of these up, along with some 240V light bulbs for good measure, in assorted series/parallel combinations, spread out on my bedroom floor. Connecting wires came from stripped extension cord and connections were the bare stripped wire ends twisted together with my fingers, so with the motors spinning away and the light bulbs glowing I was stepping around my wiring mesh barefoot, in between the live wires.I knew the potential danger and was carful, but eventually stuffed up in my enthusiasm and noticed a sharp pain in my foot. I had stepped on a twisted connection and one of the bare copper strands stuck into me. A minor ouch and an initial second or so of realisation and panic, but, to my relief, no electrical shock.I was smart enough not to try making bodily contact with any other wires or to immediately assume that the whole electrical danger message was a elaborate hoax, but I was utterly dumbfounded and enthralled by the fact that I could hang onto areal live mains wirewith complete immunity and without any apparent danger at all.Of course I had NFI at the time that it was the neural wire that I had initially stepped on, which is hard-wired to earth back at the fuse box, but I quickly used this discovery to demonstrate to my mother that I was fully conversant with this electrical theory stuff and that what I was doing was totally safe.She freaked a bit and started ranting, calling my father into the room. Her: "What if he electrocutes himself?! What then?!". Him, shrugging: "Hmpff, then no more Gleney". From that point onwards I was left entirely to my own devices with anything plugged into the mains, without further interference (or any real interest at all, really) from my parents.I think people used to have and raise kids with the expectation or simply just unquestionably/fatalistically resigned to the fact that injury and potentially death was a natural part of the equation. These days barely any council will erect a slippery dip higher than a few meters in a public park and my old high school now looks like freaking Fort Knox.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 02:55:58 am
content: Quote from: HalcyonNo interest in women then?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 02:59:44 am
content: Quote from: GK on June 30, 2016, 02:55:58 amWell this is awkward... Truthfully? No.Maybe that's where I get it from?

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 03:37:23 am
content: Quote from: HalcyonLOL. You have it easy in ways you probably can't imagine.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 04:18:28 am
content: Quote from: imidis on June 29, 2016, 11:39:54 pmMy point was warnings/disclaimers are a good idea and parenting often has little to do with it. Can't morally blame people for being uninformed, but you can if they were warned and didn't take the advice.That is why appliances have stupid warnings because some people have no idea what is safe and what isn't.

author: imidis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 06:26:57 am
content: Quote from: Shock on June 30, 2016, 04:18:28 amTrue.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 08:05:11 am
content: I once left a tube transformer in my room, with its numerous solder terminals exposed, with a plug soldered onto the 120vac primary (i had half a thought that wasn't a good idea) which it wasn't, somehow somehow both my brothers got shocked at the same time. (that particular transformer had a 500volt secondary as its highest voltage, and many intermediate voltages)Years later I found out my brother knew better than to mess with it at the time, even though he was on the order of 7-8 years old.Around the same age, apparently he found out water and electricity don't mix, as we've all been told, they don't mix. but he didn't know this for certain, so he cut the end off an extension cord, stripped the ends and put them in (i think he said) metal pie tin full of water. Nothing happened.so yes, water and electricity don't mix kids.My sister was told very early in life, don't put knives in the toaster. so she put a fork in, and got shocked. -was angry that no one told her "don't put anything metal in a toaster"

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 09:23:30 am
content: You can buy electrical water cup heaters which basically is a extension cored with two metal plates. Death cookers.Shocking yourself with a toaster is very hard. The heating element is sandwiched between a mesh of earth wire. You'd need a steady hand to poke a wire in there without tripping the RCD.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 09:38:36 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 30, 2016, 02:59:44 amhahaha, fair play.Seriously though, history is full of discoveries and inventions by people who have dicked around with things they don't understand to 'see what it does if I do this'.My opinion, there should be a disclaimer on the video, there may well have been but no disclaimer will ever prevent stupid, carelessness or just damned bad luck.Teenagers (and not so teenage) very often have the attitude that they're invulnerable and/or smarter than their peers.It's a very sad incident but who knows what he was thinking when it happened, he may have slipped, may have tried to run his hand through the arc, maybe he thought it was switched off and discharged, there are multiple possibilities...As for the parents, I know very well that mine didn't know a thing about electricity and I also know that, along with pretty much every teenager ever, I tried to get away with stuff that I thought they'd disapprove of.Sadly I think it's entirely possible the blame may lie solely with the boy himself, hell of a price to pay though.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 12:26:18 pm
content: Had he only used the cap across the 110 with his jumper cables (why I suspect the reporters thought battery) attached to the electrodes, his chances would have gone up. The MOT's secondary not so forgiving.I offer my condolences to the family and his friends.When I first read it, I thought of the last few people that damaged their DVMs attempting to measure the secondary of a MOT. If you are doing things like this you may want to consider a different hobby.

author: Watth
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 01:07:51 pm
content: Quote

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 02:59:35 pm
content: I was told at a young age "don't stick your fingers in a light socket". So at my grandmother's, she had a lamp with no bulb in it that was still plugged in. I stuck my fingers in and found out that when you do that, it hurts. So I stopped doing that.Years later, I'm about 11 or 12, neighbor moving away knew I was into electronics so he gave me this huge box full of stuff, including a pair of tube radios. The AM/FM one was in perfect condition and worked great, but the AM one had the tuning dial broken off. I knew better, but I was tuning it by sticking a screwdriver in and rotating the tuning cap. All was fine while my hand was on the plastic handle of the screwdriver, but then my hand slipped. That shock literally froze me in place and I could yell for help or anything. I was in the basement and I could see people outside on the patio through the windows, not more than 10 feet away. Eventually my shaking broke the contact between the screwdriver and the tuning cap and I was free. It seemed like I was stuck there a good 15-20 minutes but it may have been only 15-20 seconds. I gained a huge respect for high voltage that day, and even still do not like messing with anything high voltage like CRT anode caps even when I know everything's been discharged.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 06:35:42 pm
content: Once I was shocked by a 5uF capacitor, there might have been from 400 to 100 volts or so. It was inside a compact fluorescent lamp. Nothing special happened.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 06:42:21 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on June 30, 2016, 01:22:37 amInteresting you specifically say 15A. Do you think an outlet is limited at 15A?

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 07:08:57 pm
content: Quote from: SteveyG on June 30, 2016, 06:42:21 pmAny given outlet in the US is sourced by a 12-20 amp circuit breaker. Really doesn't matter does it as death can happen with milliamps, amps not required.

author: rch
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 07:37:19 pm
content: Quote from: retrolefty on June 30, 2016, 07:08:57 pmElectrocution is not the only risk. I don't know the specs of American breakers, but UK ones allow kA fault currents for a finite time.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 08:11:39 pm
content: KA fault currents are unlikely with typical wiring lengths and gauges unless the fault is close to the breaker. However IIRC fault currents of up to 300A for up to eight half-cycles are possible on a 15A breaker without the magnetic trip acting, and up to 1.2KJ of energy could be dissipated in the fault, which is comparable to the energy of a M16 rifle bullet at 100m, enough to significantly f--k up your day.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 09:17:19 pm
content: I remember taking apart a broken Polaroid "Impulse" camera when I was about 11. Boy did I get an impulse from that! For whatever reason, I was disassembling it on my bed, at night, which happened to be the top of a bunk bed. I got to the circuit board and, next thing I remember is laying on the (concrete) floor with a bruised tailbone and the inability to feel my hand! That's when I learned that capacitors really can hold substantial charges, especially ones designed to drive camera flashes!In that case, most of the injury was sustained from jerking away from the camera, which caused me to fall out of the top bunk. I regained feeling in my hand pretty quickly, the camera went in the trash and I went to sleep like I was supposed to.After that I had a healthy respect for HV *and* capacitors. (The worst part is I knew better, I just wasn't paying attention to where my fingers were.)

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 11:21:16 pm
content: When I was a kid, maybe around the age of 10 or so my grandpa showed me how a flashlight works, I thought it was cool and started playing with batteries, light bulbs and stuff like that. Later on I wanted MOAR POWER! I figured the electrical outlet is basically the same as a battery, negative on one side and positive on the other. I did not really know what ground was but figured I did not need it (sorta correct, I guess). Being a kid, it's not like I could just go to the store and buy stuff, so I had to be creative. Was trying to figure out what to use for conductors, then it dawned on me that foil paper would work. So I'd go in the kitchen and grab a piece when my mom was not around and then crunch it up to make wires. Next thing you know I had strings of Christmas lights and other 120v stuff wired in the basement. I'd use k'nex as "transmission lines" to hold the "negative and positive" far enough apart so they don't touch.Occasionally, there were accidents, like a line falling down and touching. The scary part is, I left all this stuff on when I left that area. Totally could have set the house on fire. My parents eventually got wind of what I was doing and put a stop to it. I was sad. I eventually learned to use real wire and learned the difference between AC and DC, and basic stuff like the proper way to wire outlets and so on and actually did electrical around the house.One of my first experimentations with 120v was not with the foil paper though, was a paper clip I bent so that I can fit a C9 bulb into it. It then had an end that sticked out to go in the socket. I then used a small piece of wire that I had salvaged from a toy or something and made it light up. That's also when I got my first shock because my finger slipped. In fact, I still have that thing in one of my tool boxes, I don't know why I kept it, I just did. It's kinda rusty.

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2016, 02:35:18 am
content: When I was in 3rd grade I started manufacturing portable "heaters". I really liked putting them in my shoes, and experimenting with them during recess.Amazing what a paperclip across some battery terminals will do.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2016, 01:20:44 am
content: As a child I had a respect for electricity. Somehow my father taught me not to do dangerous stuff with 230VAC. I never put a knitting needle into a 230V socket or so. At little age I saw a pantograph arcing like this.So till the age of 15 I used only voltage under 36V or so.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2016, 05:18:13 pm
content: Show your children this socket arcing and they will develop a respect for electricity.You need a 230V socket with free holes and a 2000W iron, kettle or similar device that consumes 10Amps at 230V AC.You must use a socket with no anti-children protection, so you can insert a screwdriver or neon-lamp type tester (the black instrument in my video).

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2016, 06:29:48 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on July 02, 2016, 01:20:44 amThat line is way past the replace point on that brass rail, it will only cause issues for both damage to the pick up rail and for the internal train systems that have to filter the noise out of the incoming power.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2016, 06:33:32 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on July 02, 2016, 05:18:13 pm

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2016, 06:43:03 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on July 02, 2016, 05:18:13 pmIs there anything special going on in that video? I can do that with just about any high draw appliance like a toaster with a 120v north american plug as well.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2016, 06:53:20 pm
content: There is nothing special in this video.It is for children who do not have respect for electricity and who want to put a nail into the socket or so.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2016, 07:53:47 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on July 03, 2016, 06:53:20 pmOh, in that case, I'd show them this one:I actually have to try that some time.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2016, 05:05:55 am
content: So that would be 5 seconds in 220V country ... wonder how close that would get to tripping the breaker. Not a lot of time to bring up all the water in a hotdog to boiling.

author: Vgkid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2016, 02:02:36 pm
content: For those using 220 you could use a series hot dog connection.

author: klunkerbus
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2016, 02:43:05 pm
content: Search on "Presto Hot Dogger" for a 1970's retail product that cooked hot dogs with 120V being applied through electrodes. We always had issues with the multiple hot dogs not heating up at the same rate, and burning at the electrode-to-hotdog connections that smelled bad and tasted even worse.

author: sarepairman2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2016, 02:55:13 pm
content: I think those hot dog cookers are a great demonstration in a physics class. I don't know why everyone hates them so much.I mean, you are in a class learning about fire, pressure, basically harnessing the force of nature to do your bidding... that the whole point reallyalso solar hot dogsI'm just glad I am naturally timid around dangerous things and tend to only reach for them with one hand

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2016, 04:16:24 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on June 30, 2016, 01:22:37 amWay back before I was old enough to start school, I decided that why bother with batteries for a little 4.5V DC motor when we had plenty of that electricity stuff in the wall sockets. That was before safety shutters were added to the outlets but luckily the outlets had switches. In went two stripped wires and the switch was thrown. Blam! 220V turned out to be able to produce quite a flash. For some strange reason the motor stopped working as did the lights in my room

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2016, 05:24:00 pm
content: Had I been shown that as a kid, I would have been jamming everything I could find into the outlets!Quote from: Hydrawerk on July 02, 2016, 05:18:13 pm

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2016, 05:28:54 pm
content: I have a friend who was telling me how they cooked hotdogs this way while he was in the service. I thought, no way. So we bought a package of them and two stainless nails. Had to keep adjusting the nails but at 110 VAC, it worked well. We ate them for lunch. One burned on the ends bad enough to cut that area out.Quote from: Red Squirrel on July 03, 2016, 07:53:47 pm