Fastest DMM ohm autoranging suggestion? Fluke 177, Hioki DT4261, Keysight U1233A - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: ermionesrl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2022, 05:18:36 pm
content: Hello to all.This is my first post in this very useful board.I have, use (and even collect) many DMMs (as well as other instruments). All of them are better for something and worse for something else.Here I want to focus to a characteristic that is often not even clearly stated in the datasheets: the speed of measurement (including autoranging), in particular in the ohm function.I very frequently use the DMM to reverse engineer PCBs and do preliminary component checks, so the functions I use more are the continuity check, ohm and diodes measurements.Resolution and accuracy are secondary (to some reasonable extent). A 3.5 digit is perfectly enough for this job.My workhorse is a Fluke 177, about 20 years old and still performing as new. It measures any unknown resistor in about 1s, continuity check detect 250us shorts and diode function emit a short beep for a working junction and a long for a short. I would like to buy another multimeter for the same job and I would ask if someone could suggest me an alternative, just not to buy again the same 177 (or 175/179).Today I tried what I have here handy: Fluke 17b+ does the measurement in 2/3s, Fluke 15b in 3/4s, UNI-T UT211B doesn't even qualify. A good performer, despite being an overkill for the job, is the Agilent 34401A with 1s, but for each measurement a relay clicks and it's extremely annoying.Here I saw a post about the speed of Hioki, so I checked and they actually publish it in the specs. The new DT4261 (as well as the older DT4252/DT4253/DT4254/DT4255/DT4256) autorange in 1.1s. The continuity check detect 500us shorts (that for any practical usage is the same as 250us), diode function emit an intermittent beep that I don't yet know if it's as good as the long in Fluke, but probably is.Other competitors? Keysight U1233A? They don't say anything in the datasheet about speed and minimum detected short circuit duration.Test voltage and current of the continuity function are also to be considered, the lower the better of course. Price is not a big issue, a quality product is preferred, but let's not go too high to premium 6.5 digits bench instruments (I already have the 34401A when it's needed) or it would be more reasonable just to buy another 177.Thank you!!!Best regards,(Mr.) Andrea Baldoni

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2022, 07:51:27 pm
content: This one:https://zotektools.com/products/zt-s2/They're damn fast. Ohms is under a second and they can measure voltage as fast as many meter's continuity test - just tap the probe on a wire and you'll get a reading (which is held on screen long enough to read it).I'm not saying it's a great meter, it has a lot of limits on the ranges, but itisa fast one - and great fun to use in full auto mode. You just turn it on and start probing, let the meter do its thing. If there's a voltage it shows the voltage. If there's continuity, it beeps - no need to power off the device while looking for continuity. Move the probe to the other socket and it switches to amps mode all by itself.Continuity is very slow in full auto mode but the "S4" version in the image lets you switch to a fixed diode/continuity mode and it's fast there.Also available in other brands, eg.Aneng.The big annoyance is having to hold down the power button for 2 seconds to power it on. Why can't it just power on instantly?

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 01:53:49 am
content: Welcome to the forum, Andrea!I don't have any of the meters you mention/inquire about but I quickly checked a few of mine (just measured a 2K2 resistor and checked a 1N4001 diode).Brymen BM235 is my fastest ohm meter, a bit faster than my Fluke 87V (my second fastest, I assume on par with your Fluke 177 - but can't be sure, as I've never used a Fluke 177). Unfortunately, BM235 doesn't do the Fluke's clever diode test beeping. Brymen BM789 tries to replicate Fluke's diode beeping but it's much slower (it takes about 2x-3x longer to short-beep for a good junction). Its' ohm range is also slower than BM235's and 87V's.On the cheaper side, Uni-T 61E ohm range is also very fast (on par with 87V), but it displays one or two intermediate values before settling, which doesn't look that nice. Uni-T 161E seems a bit slower than 61E.All my high-end meters I tested are slower than any of the above (Fluke 189 and 287, Brymen BM869S, Keysight/Agilent 1252, 1272 & 1282, Dave's 121GW) - but reasonably precise. Speed and precision don't go hand in hand...If cost is not an issue, I would also recommend considering the LCR Research Pro1 Plus Tweezers - super accurate and super fast on DCR (on par with BM235's and 87V's).I haven't checked the precise continuity speed (might do it if you suggest a simple way), but all of the above are reasonably fast.

author: mqsaharan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 05:15:36 am
content: Welcome to the forum, Andrea.Please take look at HKJ's excellent reviewshttps://lygte-info.dk/info/DMMReviews.htmlfor DMMs. He is also a forum member. You'll find your required information there and a lot more that most reviewers don't mention.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 05:58:06 am
content: Quote from: mqsaharan on January 13, 2022, 05:15:36 amYep, HKJ mentions the autorange speed on all the meters he reviews.eg. He claims 0.9 seconds for that Zoyi meter above -well, a variant of it.(MELF goodness inside!)

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 07:28:40 am
content: The Fluke 8840A/8842A is one low budget option for very fast autoranging resistance measurements, as they have Slow (default), Medium and Fast "Rate" settings. On Medium it can hit pretty much any resistance value in what feels like 1/10 of a second or so. Quite fast. No continuity feature on these, though. An oldie but goodie.Higher budget, I've collected a few older Keithley bench DMMs to repair over the last few months and some are unbelievably fast to autorange. The 2015 and 2010 for example.You can also quickly set the continuity threshold to any value between 1 and 9,999 Ohms. I know they are kind of hard to get but deals pop up from time to time.One option for fast resistance measurements on an otherwise-slow, high-count bench DMM is to manually pick a range, such as 1M, at which point there are enough digits to cover quite a bit of possibilities without autoranging.

author: paulbt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 10:17:59 am
content: Quote from: ermionesrl on January 12, 2022, 05:18:36 pmHi, Andrea!Keysight U123xA, U124xB and U124xC are slower in ohms autoranging compared to your Fluke 177.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 10:48:07 am
content: Quote from: J-R on January 13, 2022, 07:28:40 amIf we're allowed to fix a range then many meters will be much faster than they are in autoranging mode.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 11:36:12 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 13, 2022, 10:48:07 amOf course, but a 6.5 digit DMM in 1 MOhm range is more useful for measuring 100 Ohm then a 3.5 digit meter in 1 MOhm range

author: ermionesrl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 12:12:19 pm
content: Hello again and thank you for the interesting answers.Fungus:The zotek you mention could have been a good option for ohm, it also does have a very low burden voltage, but HKJ say it's very slow on continuity and I cannot use two meters to do the same job on the same circuit...Caliaxy, J-R:Yes, you are right, on handheld DMMs, more digits means slower meters. Fortunately I don't need more than 3.5 digits for this application... Completely different story are the benchtop models and the ones suggested are interesting. Unfortunately it's very difficult to find good used units here... most are beaten up, cracked, scratched, have missing parts... declared "working perfectly" on ebay but... Used meters in good/vg condition are offered for a higher price than current production equivalents, evidently there are reasons (certifications, procedures and so on) for some entities to buy exactly these instruments. The mentioned LCR tweezers aren't good for me, as I need point to point testing (and very expensive, I would rather buy the Der EE DE-5000 as 100kHz LCR).mqsaharan:Extremely useful site, this of HKJ. The speed is mentioned in all meters. Wish he could have inserted it in the table...It seems that everyone makes DMMs nowadays.paulbt:Very good to know. I would have bought one but the HKJ review say 1.5s and you confirmed that, so it's out.Fungus, alm:The Agilent 34401A obviously doesn't click any relay if you put it in manual range... but it's WAY SLOWER to get a stable reading! I could try disabling the filter and/or reducing resolution but it seems it's simply not the right instrument for the job.So, as it seems, there's not an easy solution and to go faster than what I have, I should buy a benchtop multimeter despite its excessive cost for the task... Now I think I have been very lucky with my 177. When I decided to pass from an analog meter to a digital I first tried a Metex, I think it was a M3640D. It was so slow to get a stable reading that I concluded that digital meters were crap and returned to the analog, until someone suggested me to buy "a Fluke". Now I see that even between top brand meters the speed is not implied, so, without knowing it, I bought "the right" Fluke or I could have been disappointed.I was convinced that new, quality DMMs ought to be much faster, given the advances in ADC and MCU. Evidently no one is in a hurry in this field and there's not interest

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 12:36:22 pm
content: Quote from: ermionesrl on January 13, 2022, 12:12:19 pmIt's very fast if you switch the meter to fixed continuity mode (a single button press). Switching back to "auto" mode is a long press on the same button.nb. HKJ didn't have the version of the meter with that option - it's a couple of bucks extra.At that price you could get one just for fun...Quote from: ermionesrl on January 13, 2022, 12:12:19 pmMuchfaster? No.Quote from: ermionesrl on January 13, 2022, 12:12:19 pmNope.There's a direct conflict with battery life. People prefer long battery life and high CPU clock speeds use much more battery. This is where bench DMMs get their advantage from.

author: crazyguy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 12:53:40 pm
content: UNI-T UT136B+ is quite fast, 4 samples/second

author: RolandK
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 02:11:07 pm
content: Quote from: crazyguy on January 13, 2022, 12:53:40 pmDoes it need one sample per automatic range change or does the sample include the autoranging?The HP 3480 / HP 3484A combo makes one automatic range change in down to 4 ms. There is no slow software in a budget µC inside. But this type of meter was designed for high speed production measurement, not handy at all.Service meters often lack this very useful behaviour.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 02:19:11 pm
content: I used the Fluke 177 once in a great while (it's not my meter) and I use the 87V often I don't notice the different in speed. I do use the 287 and 289 and with both the autoranging in OHMS is painfully slow.

author: ermionesrl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 02:37:34 pm
content: Hello.Fungus:So the "Aneng V01A" version should do the job. Of course for the price it's worth giving a try: now it's "on sale" on Aliexpress and I bought it for less than 16 USD shipped (you can even choose the color).I didn't think to battery duration, but there's to say that newer MCU are also much less power hungry... evidently it's a case of divergent evolutioncrazyguy:Most (if not all) the cited DMMs are 3 or 4 samples/s but unfortunately autoranging is much slower as it require more reads (and internal switching of many circuits) to be completed.RolandK:Those are so vintage that's even difficult to find info on them. I just read a thread here about the thermal RMS converter inside!

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 03:36:09 pm
content: Quote from: ermionesrl on January 13, 2022, 12:12:19 pmA systems multimeter like the 34401A will be faster than and handheld. Purely because they are not limited by power, and because they are not just designed to output to a display to be read by a human, but also by a computer. Not much point outputting 100s of readings per second to a display. The 34401A is specified for up to 1000 readings per second in 4.5 digits and more than 30 range switches per second (in DCV range). How is the Ohms auto-ranging speed in 4.5 digit mode?Maybe a handheld is more convenient for you, but I doubt it will be faster.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 03:48:45 pm
content: Quote from: ermionesrl on January 13, 2022, 02:37:34 pmThe V01A doesn't have manual range setting so you can't get fast continuity.For that you need V03A or V04A.(I think the difference between those two is the V04A does temperature)They're all manufactured by Zotek, you can get original Zoyi versions here:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000221812509.htmlManuals are on the Zotek web page:https://zotektools.com/products/zt-s3/https://zotektools.com/products/zt-s4/Aneng has more color choices though.

author: crazyguy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 03:56:27 pm
content: Uni-T UT136B+https://youtu.be/5Zrk9OBLVkI?t=451

author: ermionesrl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 05:29:30 pm
content: Hello.alm:The 34401A in "fast 5 digit" mode is a flash, autorange in perhaps about 100ms. The problem is that relay clicking really annoy me, I cannot resist to think it will wearFungus:Thank you. I canceled the order and ordered the other one. Yes, choice of color is better with Aneng but I resistedand ordered the Zoyi version you linked (ZT-S4).crazyguy:Yes, it seems fast in ohm (not so to get a stable measurement of 220VAC) tough in the review he didn't try "worst case", going from infinite to short. Unfortunately it doesn't beep with diodes. Thank you! If I will not be satisfied with Zoyi I can give it a try.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 05:44:06 pm
content: Quote from: ermionesrl on January 13, 2022, 12:12:19 pmI tried it on the Keithley 2000 (is/was a direct competitor to the 34401A with very similar specs), and with fast reading rate, 6.5 digit and the default moving average filter, and it only takes a few readings, which is faster than I can blink, to settle on a reading of 12 Ohm when measuring a 10 Ohm resistor in 2W mode and set to the 1 MOhm range. Measuring 1 MOhm responds just as fast, but only the first three digits are stable. Seems like it would be working okay and fast if you don't need much accuracy. I don't have a 34401A on hand to compare.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 12:04:36 am
content: The 34401A is reasonably fast and does have various settings for 4/5/6 digits and fast/slow. However, 6 digit fast is still a bit slow, and the fast modes on 4/5 digits are too fast to read. And the autorange is still a bit "slow".The Fluke 8840A/8842A at the Medium Rate is much faster than the 34401A at autoranging in my opinion. The Keithleys I mentioned are faster still.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 12:36:01 am
content: Also, the 34401A does have an adjustable continuity setting....

author: ermionesrl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 09:36:37 am
content: alm:If I understood correctly, you are using the Keithley 2000 in fixed 1 MOhm range? In autorange, it's also fast and doesn't click any relay?J-R:The only problem is that here a good used 8842A cost more than half a 8845A new...

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 10:14:14 am
content: Yes, I was using it in 1 MOhm fixed range. In auto range it's also fast, but there are relays clicking. The Keithley 2015 that J-R mentioned is identical except it has some unrelated audio measurement functions.Their predecessor the Keithley 199 has no relay clicks on range change, but is slightly slower than the Keithley 2000. The manual specifies Ohm autoranging time as 500 ms. Setting the display to 4.5 digits improves the speed, and enabling the digital filter stabilizes the reading. I quite like these units with their big, bright displays, but features are limited to DCV/ACV/DCI/ACI and Ohms (2 wire and 4 wire). You hear relay clicks when changing some functions, but much more faint than on the 34401A. Depending on the background noise I don't even notice it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 03:41:26 pm
content: Story:I was teaching an Arduino class today and the multimeters they had there had there had a weird socket configuration: The meters have volts on one input jack and ohms/continuity on another. I spent the whole time swapping the cable between the two.The kids were creating short circuits, reversing the polarities, doing all the things kids do with Arduinos and I was wishing I had my Zoyi S4 with me. We all know it has big limitations as a general purpose multimeter but it would have beensooooofast and easy to use for diagnosing those type of problems. I'm definitely taking it to next week's class. "Horses for courses" as they say.

author: ermionesrl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 05:21:25 pm
content: alm:I like the 199, I will start to hunt for one. I have the even more vintage 617, 220, and 181. Not a easy hunt, but the price seems right. When people see red display think it's too old to be useful. It wouldn't be the perfect instrument for the role because it lacks continuity function and diode, but it's nice enough to be added to the collection!There is a 196 on offer locally (I don't know the price yet). What do you think of it?Fungus:Last meter that needed to swap sockets was the (very famous here) analog ICE 680R (680G and Microtest 80 share the same system). Those meters don't have any switch, you need to move the probe plugs on different positions to change ranges and functions. They say in the user manual that it's much more difficult to forget to move them, than it is to rotate a switch. I should say that in effect I forgot only once in many years, but it has been enough. I measured 380VAC with the plugs in the wrong position and I sublimated half a probe tip, a PCB trace in the multimeter, and the flash made me almost blind for some minutes. That's when I decided to pass to digital, 20 years ago. Meter damage wasn't even so bad, I recently repaired it by cleaning off the resulted metallization, rebuilding the trace and changing a protection diode...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 06:00:26 pm
content: Quote from: ermionesrl on January 14, 2022, 05:21:25 pmYep. I get that having the volts input isolated from the Ohms input makes it harder to blow the meter upwhen the plug is in the volts socketbut all it does is move the problem of having the dial in the wrong position to the problem of having the dialand the cablein the wrong position.It would be really easy to put the meter down after measuring Ohms without moving the cable back to volts for safety.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 06:57:29 pm
content: IMHO, the 196 is the best of the Keithley "brownie" bench multimeter series. Usually, it's one of the least expensive 6.5 digit DMMs. Compared to more modern instruments, it lacks diode test, continuity and capacitance ranges, and DC and AC volts ranges only up to 300V. If this suffices your needs, there's little else to wish for.Auto Range is lightning fast without any audible relay switching, it's got to be somewhere around 0.2s in the Ohms range from OC to a stable 0.3 Ohms reading (tested 2-Wire only). The other ranges are similarly fast to auro range over the full span.A good price for this meter is in the 200~250 EUR range, though in Europe, prices are usually astronomical for used T&M gear...Good luck!Cheers,Thomas