The return of domestic electronics design and manufacture to Europe? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2019, 08:42:28 pm
content: HiCello Electronics make TVs in UK.Is this final assembly of Electronics designed and manufactured in China?, ie just a token manufacture house which makes some of the TV’s, but the bulk of them coming direct from China?...or is it a genuine All European operation?https://celloelectronics.com/

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2019, 09:18:15 pm
content: Quote from: treez on November 28, 2019, 08:42:28 pmDefine “manufactured”. It’s highly unlikely that a modern LCD panel fab even exists in the UK. So even if 100% of the remaining components were made in the UK (which is unlikely), the single most important component is almost guaranteed to be imported. So it’s probably just final assembly in UK.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2019, 09:40:24 pm
content: Quote from: treez on November 28, 2019, 08:42:28 pmHmm... are you on your [insert culprit here] Is Killing British Industry crusade yet again??

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 02:52:21 am
content: Well I really hope so; let's face it, we English started the concept of industrial revolution, and are masters of engineering, ingenuity, innovation and DOGGED determination.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 07:01:37 am
content: QuoteThanks, so are you suggesting that this is simply a company pretending to be "British Made" when in fact its all from outside these shores?I mean, there's obviously a "Buy British" market out there.....people who want to spend their pennies on "British made" goods....is this just a cynical way of tapping into it?Where, i wonder, is this company registered for Corporation Tax payments?...i bet its not even possible to find out.Im not saying that there is any pretence of being "British made" going on here, but its certainly happened before, and seems to only happen in UK.It seems , these days, that generally British people are now masters of selling their own country down the river....whilst pretending to do the opposite.I wont re-post the ukdecline website here.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 07:15:52 am
content: at least british movies are good

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 09:37:50 am
content: Quote from: treez on November 29, 2019, 07:01:37 amThen again, you may want to define exactly what "British made" (or anywhere else) means. AFAIK, in most countries, this just means that the final steps of assembly are done in the country of origin.Most industrial activities these days consist of "assembling" parts themselves made in various parts of the world. Very few companies use parts exclusively made in their own country. So what level of assembly looks "enough" to you? Likewise, what level of design?It's likely that the above company just specifies the parts, handles the suppliers and logistics, and assembles them in-house. It's still industrial activity. Does that mean that "electronics design and manufacture" is returning to Europe? Not in the sense you mean, IMO.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 09:40:15 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 28, 2019, 09:02:57 pmInterestingly:https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vizio-m-a-leeco-idUSKBN17C2MX

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 09:51:49 am
content: The only reason we did anything as a nation was because of the commonwealth and its stranglehold on resources around the planet. We don't have that now. Expect unemployment and transition to service industries and quit whining

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 10:01:15 am
content: Quote from: treez on November 28, 2019, 08:42:28 pmFrom the video on their site, it looks like all they are doing is fitting PCBs, plugging some cables in and doing final test. If they were doing anything more, they would have put it in the video, as pick/place etc. looks far more hi tech that someone putting a few screws in.And I wonder if they are even doing that on all models, as it looked like a lot of fully packed units were coming in the door.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 10:51:24 am
content: It's known in the OEM industry as SKD (Semi Knock Down). Assembled PCBs, LCDs, Case components, screw sets etc. Come in from China, Korea or wherever to be assembled and tested in Europe by a final assembly company (often a subcontract manufacturer too).Been there, done that - Korean OEM manufacturer, with UK design office, final assembly subcontractor in Northern Ireland. Selling to UK / European brand names.... and it's certainly not just the UK!P.S. And it doesn't even pay well - OEMs do all the work and get a pitiful mark-up, Distributors make a bit more mark up for branding, then the Retailers do virtually nothing and stick on a 100% mark-up!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 10:53:29 am
content: Why wouldn't you do that though? It's a nightmare managing component-level logistics. Keep it at the source.We'd have to bring Mullard etc back if we wanted to do that here.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 07:24:41 pm
content: QuoteThanks, yes, this was how it was supposed to go….(I presume by bubble gum electroncis you mean stuff like bog standard low power offline power supplies etc)…but I believe that if you get rid of the bubble gum electronics……..you loose all electronics….because you just don’t get enough people coming on to electronics college courses……and to get those high end engineers, you need a big cohort of electronics students from which the real specialists will rise out of.Look at China…they do all the bubble gum electronics….but have the finest high end electronics engineers in the world aswell.Most electronics students of course…wont ever be able to become “high end electronics engineers”, and so if the “bubble gum” jobs disappear, then the masses wont get a job after the electronics course, and people will then stop coming on electronics courses…….and in turn, the quota of high end specialists will drop and drop...which is what is happening in the UK and other EU places.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 07:26:10 pm
content: Yeah which is why I’m a software dev lol

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 08:23:26 pm
content: Quote from: treez on November 29, 2019, 07:24:41 pmI'm not sure why. Are you saying that most people studying electronics never end up being proper engineers?Because if you're a decently educated engineer and have half a brain, I don't see a reason why you couldn't work on the kind of electronics we're talking about instead of trying to keep designing commodity stuff. It's a matter of shifting the object of our designs, not a matter of the complexity of the designs itself. Many "high-end" applications are actually easier to design than many of what you may call "low-end" (the commodity stuff).A few (very few) european countries have understood that for a long time now and they're doing better than the others industry-wise. You guessed: Germany and Switzerland for instance. Are german or swiss engineers all geniuses? I don't think so.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 08:32:21 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on November 29, 2019, 11:49:08 amYes, that looks like a typical SKD assembly line, screw together the chassis, panel, and PCB assemblies and test. No sign of any PCB assembly, or design facilities either (at least we used todesignours in the UK!). Distributors liked us because they could claim Designed and Manufactured in the UK.*Interesting to see some Ferguson branded TV boxes in the video too. Old established brand names regularly change hands between distributors, the original companies long gone.What Cello do seem to be doing well though is a decent website, UK customer support etc. That works well for brand image and loyalty.*Under EU Customs Articles 24CC:Quote

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 10:01:37 pm
content: Quote from: eti on November 29, 2019, 02:52:21 amRevolution, it is said, devours its own children.I won't get into mastery of engineering, ingenuity, or innovation. But the Chinese clearly seem moredeterminedto win this game than any other country. And that certainly includes the UK, from all I can see.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 05:34:49 am
content: How do you compete with this (pic), a population of 1,427,647,786 and the Iron Fist?china's communist government is superior to the West, in that they have a long term plan and the scale of their manufacturing industry is unparalleled.Canada, UK, USA, Australia and other nations are doomed in that they oscillate between right and left-wing governments almost every election. It's constantly swinging back and forth i.e. conservative/liberal political parties due to an unhappy voter base. There is not enough stability to have any long term plan or commitment for technology and a nation's prosperity.Assembling an LCD TV is low tech labour, it's a business that employs some locals and makes money off tax/tariff breaks. A monkey can put in screws, better yet a robot.It appears the West is headed there - we won't make semi's, electronic components, computers, TV's, cell phones, LCD panels, pipe, wire, plastics etc. and will instead be infinite consumers of chinese-made products. I can't see much design and manufacturing being outside of china aside from niche companies.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 06:07:33 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 01, 2019, 05:34:49 amby imposing standards to their shitty manufacturing plan? quality is sliding so much you might as well be in the swiss alpsnice thing is you can do customization and engineering specials with local manufacturing that actually work without trying to restructure an overseas assembly line (how many people quit because 'we are moving to china...'? 'we need you to go to china for a while'... 'you have a 3am with china...'(no, not a hooker)i have a feeling some of these companies are operating like nasa with a china control room

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 07:12:16 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on December 01, 2019, 06:07:33 amNo- china makes high quality as well as low quality.I asked a vendor about a $1 mains-powered LED light fixture he was selling. It runs very hot, has a shock risk, no fuse etc. so I was puzzled - "What's the point?" The vendor told me "this is what customer wants, top seller. So we make them."The orders come from India where they want the lowest price as top priority. Doesn't matter to them that the quality is poor.Same for everything else, people want the lowest price.blueskull, I don't want to upset you.We're trying to figure what the West will do for life and work, especially electronics because china's efficiency makes it the winner in manufacturing. The environment and quality of life are not respected though, so the efficiency comes at great cost.For many years, I see the West losing manufacturing jobs to china.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 10:33:32 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 01, 2019, 07:12:16 amThis, is always come out, and most of the times used as an excuse to bash certain country.Problem is, if you're born in a piss poor family and in a developing country, and you parent are also working hard and "legit" way to support the family, and say you're a minor, and there is a home industry in neighborhood that is offering a part time easy job after you finished school time to earn some pocket money, or even contribute to family's income, while kids at same age in your country, probably are busy and worrying why their social media life isn't getting enough "likes" and "followers" count.Its so easy to shout out loud and so proud too, just to point finger at them like ... child exploitation .. inhumane parent exploiting their kid .. etc.. bla..bla.. you get the picture, don't you feel tired reading about this everytimes ?

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 11:15:29 am
content: QuoteThanks,…this is the best “in a nutshell” description of the situation ive heard.So why is China flogging stuff so cheap?......is it because they just love the thought of helping the west to live in the lap of luxury without charging us much?..............or is it to knock out the West’s capability in this area….then when the west has no basic engineering facility left, they will raise prices and have a captive market?The “western free market” concept means we are destined to become dependent on China. So what the west must do is make importation of cheap Chinese goods come under government control…….or simply ban it all together….and any money saved by importing from China must go into rejuvenating western engineering. The Western model of having loads of western “entrepreneurs” who middle-man vast amounts of Chinese stuff in and become millionaires overnight must go….because what happens is that the middle men put so much mark up on the goods that they eventually end up not being cheaper than western goods would have been if the manufacturing base had been maintained in the west.We have rich western middle men who are buying up western electronics companies and ploughing them into the ground so they can have the market all for their Chinese imports.The biggest buyer of Chinese goods is UK…..UK is the embodiment of the wonderful “free market”…and just look where it has gotten us…https://massey276.wixsite.com/ukdecline..the UK is the laughing stock of the world, and we are going down big time now our north sea oil has gone.The west needs the jelly bean electronics to be done in the west…not least because the military uses some of that kind of engineering…….there’s also stuff like Boeing/Airbus struggling to make power supplies for its LED lighting etc because that sort of capability is drying up in the West now.Im not China bashing here....if there are tragically slaves in China...then their blood is on the West's hands just as much.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 11:41:49 am
content: Quote from: treez on November 29, 2019, 07:01:37 amQuote from: treez on December 01, 2019, 11:15:29 amLOL .. there you go again.Dude, have ever look over your past created threads on this particular topic ?Here, let me help you, just click here ->treez's created threadsYou've been doing this systematically and periodically in this forum for almost how many years exactly ?Geez, what happened to your life ? Are you going to do this forever here ?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 12:59:30 pm
content: Once you have a government that is willing to subsidise companies just to keep its population employed and reasonably content, then you're onto a looser.Maybe our governments could negotiate an arrangement where they subsidise us to keep buying the stuff too.Edit: Actually, with high levels of Chinese investment in the UK, that's pretty much what they do already.Quote from: treez on December 01, 2019, 11:15:29 amDoh, I thought you were linking an authoritative source there, not just your own website ramblings again.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 02:02:49 pm
content: QuoteThanks, yes, I will come clean…I actually work part ime for the son of a man who was well known in the musical world (now sadly RIP). He is concerned about throw-away electronics, and so many of us work for him producing various projects, ie electronics built to last, or be repairable.I trawl these forums partly to help electronics beginners, and also to find others of a similar mind, as there is a wish to grow our ranks further, shoudl it be wished.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 02:10:38 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on December 01, 2019, 12:59:30 pmHint, just use this forum's search, fill in "massey276.wixsite.com" , and see yourself on the results, and pay attention to the date of each search entry too, amazing isn't it ?This should fall into spam category as its so systematically posted, but I'm lazy to report to mod.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 03:23:01 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on November 29, 2019, 08:32:21 pmThe Ferguson name went to Thomson, and Thomson's TV business went to TCL. I therefore assumed Cello were assembling kits from TCL. However, a little Googling suggests that the Ferguson name was actually kept by Thomson, and has been licenced to Cello. So, Cello could be assembling kits from a variety of sources in China - in the video they actually say the kits are from China, and developed in China. At the end of the video they mention R&D in the UK, so there may be some adaption for specific markets being developed in the UK.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 03:33:42 pm
content: If you are concerned about quality of life in third world countries the solution is simple: keep buying their stuff and let them develop economically. I never understood the point of boycotting products made in bad labor conditions because without the business their alternative is NO money and NO food. You can do your part by favoring "made in (Vietnam|Pakistan|Bangladesh|Iran|Insert developing country here)" rather than "made in (UK|USA|First World Country)".

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 03:37:22 pm
content: Quote from: treez on December 01, 2019, 11:15:29 amDo you have figures to support that? I have never worked with a supplier in China where the UK market plays a big part in their plans. 10 to 15 years ago there were a few major Chinese players who found the UK important enough to have their nominal HQ in the UK, but I can't think of any where that is still the case. From what I see in places like Curry's, a huge amount of the electrical and electric appliances sold in the UK come from Turkey, although they will be using a lot of sub-assemblies from China.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 03:41:42 pm
content: Quote from: OwO on December 01, 2019, 03:33:42 pmMost places in Asia doing well now built themselves up from sweat shop work in the 60s and 70s. The only time sweat shops have not lead to long term progress is when the political environment is so oppressive it manages to keep people down.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 04:24:05 pm
content: Domestic electronic manufacturing is not going to return to Europe for a very very long time, because the laws are against it.If someone buys some device from china for $5, NOBODY checks if it's RoHS, if it's CE compliant, or if they have a plan to handle the WEEE.On the other hand, a local manufacturer has to be RoHS compliant, CE compliant, and partake in the WEEE tombola, otherwise he's going to be fined into oblivion. On top of that, they have to provide a warranty. That $5 item that you buy from china, is now going to cost you $60, because it has to be designed differently, it has to be tested, and all of that has to be done by competent people.From the consumer side... consumers absolutely love cheap garbage. Just take a look on this forum, which is supposed to be filled with top minds, and they often go nuts over the latest trinkets from Asia, just because they're cheap, with complete disregard for the fact that they're little more than toys.IMO, this is something that is broken in the EU. To fix it, we have two options:1) Require ALL imports from outside the EU to have paperwork that states they have been tested in an European facility, by an European company that takes responsibility for those claims, and that they were found to be meeting the same standard that the local manufacturers have to meet, as well as having a designated company that would deal with warranty claims.2) Remove all regulations and let all hell break loose.I don't see any of that happening anytime soon, so yeah... won't happen.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 04:54:26 pm
content: Quote from: treez link=topicm=220144.msg2809548#msg2809548 date=1575198929That statement is, of course, quite incorrect.UK is #9 in the list of China's export partners ranked by annual volume, acording to this:http://www.worldstopexports.com/chinas-top-import-partners/

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 04:58:00 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 01, 2019, 04:24:05 pmOh please, anyone can join this forum, and it is full of clowns whose only contribution is excited discussions what cheap shit they just bought and nervously posting their shit's tracking numbers.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 06:44:05 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on November 29, 2019, 11:49:08 amI agree. I think the marketing is more likely given the recent rise in nationalism, associated with Brexit.What's silly is manufacturing in the UK won't create the same number of jobs it once did because the factory will be largely automated, so buying British isn't necessarily creating British jobs.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 08:03:51 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 01, 2019, 06:44:05 pmYou can't bring jobs back, but you could bring work back. Thriving local automated factories bring money into the local economy. Some work was shipped overseas because it was impractical to automate, but a great deal was moved because foreign workers were cheaper than automation. As pay rises in China, and other beneficiaries of work being moved, their factories are automating, foreign customers are paying up like they did before, and money is still flowing into their local economies.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 08:50:57 pm
content: ^I think there is a huge lack of skilled workers, now, in UK when it comes to production/manufacturing.In the old world, everything was hand-fitted, and Europe had the highest concentration of this kind of skilled worker. In the new world, we think of "skill" as education level and punching a keyboard. Factories still need the hands-on kind of skill to implement the machines and to keep them running, and this skill is no longer in EU or America. It's in Asia.Without South Korea, we would still be watching our Netflix on 40" TV's that cost $1200. A lot of our modern products need skilled manual labor to produce. First world workers don't do that. They have a degree. They're smart. They want to live the dream, while they can. On credit.IMO, it's lip service. UK doesn't really want these jobs. They say it. But if they had it, their workforce wouldn't want to do it. And/or they couldn't do it efficiently, even if you removed all the regulation. Just the work, itself, at a place like say Foxconn is a non-starter. Try to get that kind of productivity in the UK.A first world worker wouldn't last a day in a Korean LCD TV factory. Anymore than they'd last a day hand-picking produce in California's El Centro farms with triple digits temps and 70% humidity due to all the irrigation. Different type of skill, but just as onerus in a different way.You have to be HUNGRY (or be a migrant worker with a great exchange rate and kids that need shoes back home) to do those jobs at the productivity level that is expected. In first world countries you can't starve. You can't die. Car accident or suicide are the only ways to make an early exit.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 09:28:46 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on December 01, 2019, 04:58:00 pmIt is also well-stocked with grumpy old men.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 06:55:21 am
content: i wanna know what all the arduino powered E-loads were used for

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2019, 01:54:52 pm
content: QuoteThanks, sorry I believe I should have explained myself more…..Germany for example, imports more from China than UK…….but it is the way that Germany makes use of Cheap Chinese imports which is totally different to UK…….The Germans wisely import lots of industrial components and parts from China…and these in turn, are used to further strengthen Germanys own impressive industrial machine. In UK its totally different…..the UK just greedily fills its boots with Chinese imports like a kid in a sweet shop…..and allows this to ruin and destroy British industry. The UK will soon fall to its knees, and be dead and gone, due to the lack of any kind of effort to make anything of itself. The UK has given up….and Chinese imports, kind of give us an excuse to do this.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2019, 02:18:49 pm
content: Just like a broken record.I design electronics in Europe. We assemble the electronics here. PCB is made here. The components are from Vishay, Würth, NXP, TI, ST and so on, all from EU/USA/Japan. And we have a constant lack of skilled engineers. It is not gone.What is gone, is all the electronics, where you have to sweat blood to make 2 cent profit. The LEDs, power supplies, and all the commodity electronics, that you are so interested in. Because someone would need to sell maybe hundreds of thousands of product to make enough money to pay one month of our salary. Who cares if it is gone?Learn something useful. Like RF engineering. You can easily charge 100+EUR/hour as a consultant to design and test RF stuff.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2019, 02:44:44 pm
content: Quote from: treez on December 06, 2019, 01:54:52 pmLOL yeah right. I'd love to see your source for this. Where'd you get the idea that Germany is importing industrial stuff? That's literally what Germany is super strong at. Industrial markets are much less price-sensitive, and FAR more quality-sensitive, than consumer goods. Heck, Germany buys lots of industrial stuff from Switzerland, which is even more expensive, because they want the quality. (For example, Germany's auto makers buy tooling from Switzerland.)In my admittedly unscientific estimation, I think Germany is importing the same kinds of stuff that the UK and US (and elsewhere) buy from China: consumer and commodity goods, mostly.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2019, 05:25:24 pm
content: I took apart a high quality bit of German industrial machinery...it was some kind of label printer...and there was a Chinese power supply in it....this is what i mean, its parts of a greater industrial thing.In UK, we dont have any industrial kit to put Chinese power supplies in to.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2019, 09:27:09 pm
content: In another of your many threads on this topic, it was pointed out to you that the UK does indeed have a lot more such manufacturing than you realize. You seem to be confusing existence of something with your personal awareness of it.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2019, 09:34:22 pm
content: We’re aware it exists. The issue is not a lot of it exists now compared to before.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2019, 10:08:15 pm
content: Quote from: treez on December 06, 2019, 05:25:24 pmBut, yeah OK. A power supply. It's just a component of the whole thing. Again, no device can be 100% made of parts from one country only. Not even german devices. I think your current problem is you're 100% fixated on the power supply industry, which, except in rare cases, has become "commodity". Maybe open your horizons a little.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2019, 10:21:17 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 06, 2019, 09:34:22 pmIn that other thread, treez had made outlandish claims about various kinds of industry being completely gone, though this was easily disproven.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2019, 12:10:26 am
content: Remember Detroit? What GM and the other car makers did there? Where's most of the steel made nowadays? Where are the americans' cars made now?Let's not forget that our own countries' big industries have been for decades offshoring all they can in search for cheap labor. Be it China, Mexico, Phillipines, India, you name it.Look at Apple for example. An iconic American company. Please realize that ~ everything it makes is made in China/Asia since the 80s. And all the money Apple earns from its sales outside of the USA doesn't even come back to the USA, it's in a bank in some caribbean island to avoid USA taxation, as they do in Europe too (avoid european taxation).That's been good for Apple and the car makers and the many, many other companies that have been doing the same thing all over the world, but how is that any good for the workers of those countries?China's success is mainly due to these dark forces: the rest of the world has made it what it is.A pretty bad situation for the working people everywhere else, but it's how it is and it's not going to change.The sad part is that many (most?) western countries are almost bankrupt already, with ever higher % of its workforce unemployed and no way to create jobs, the elders on pensions, and the gubbermints just trying to save face (*) by living off credit, just look at the public debts: in Europe, only Germany has no deficit and ~ no debt, in most other countries both over the roof and increasing year after year. In the USA as well btw.(*) And trying to distract us with all sorts of silly matters.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2019, 01:19:10 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on December 07, 2019, 12:10:26 amThe west created the monster and now they have nightmares at night. All the bad choices are coming to surface, and people now realize what happened and in what situation everyone is in now.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2019, 01:22:33 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on December 07, 2019, 12:10:26 amIt's going to be fine. Seriously, just 100 years ago people sat on the rubbles left behind by WW1, getting decimated by the spanish flu, still to be confronted with the great depression, crazy dictators, another World War, etc...We have it just fine, in still one of the longest and most prosperous relatively peaceful periods in history.Not perfect, and corrupt politicians are still fighting hard to change things to the worse, but good enough.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2019, 02:29:09 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on December 07, 2019, 12:10:26 amThe German government may have its finances in better shape than most other European governments, but the German banks are in such a mess it makes the country's overall position as bad as most other countries.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2019, 05:20:37 pm
content: QuoteEdit: Text deletedWell yes, Germany got an extremely raw deal out of the Treaty of Versailles at that time. But the difference is that Germany always had people who wanted to make something of Germany….which comes out today….eg look at Mercedes, BMW, Audi …etc etc. In UK, we gave all that kind of stuff up, we seem to think we can leave all the work to other countries to do for us, and pay for it with North sea oil, which has now run dry.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2019, 02:50:04 am
content: What matters is do provide a service people want and you make a profit at it. Whether that’s manufacturing , or financial services or whatever. The “ west” can’t make money on low cost manufacturing because their intrinsic costs has risen , largely because they do not have a workforce that’s prepared to work for peanuts.Increasing neither do the Chinese and lots to Chinese manufacturing has moved to India , Vietnam , etc. The Chinese are no more immune to business forces then anyone else.Making things in the 21st century is not as as valuable as it was in the late 19th and early 20th , largely because we have increased services sectors and other non hardcore manufacturing

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2019, 10:25:41 pm
content: Thanks, but what if after years of importing from overseas, the EU has few power supply engineers left, and then the exporters start taking shortcuts which make the products fail prematurely...........eg they may use insufficient transient protection, or insufficient inrush limiting, or too lowly rated electrolytic capacitors..............if the west and the EU doesnt actually DO this kind of work, then how is the EU going to stop the wool from being pulled over its eyes in the future?Years ago, we were told the Far East would only be doing manufacture for us...but now its many areas of design aswell...soon it will be the lot...all of it....then soon after, the EU and the west will be gonners.Giving up and letting others wipe ones behind for us, is , i am afraid to say it, going to lead nowhere fast.

author: donkey77
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2019, 10:46:24 pm
content: Quote from: treez on December 08, 2019, 10:25:41 pmWell, when that time comes you will clean up, being the sole expert power supply engineer in the EU.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2019, 06:24:36 am
content: Quote from: treez on December 08, 2019, 10:25:41 pmI think good old capitalism and market forces will take care of that. "The exporters" are not a monolithic block, but are competing with each other. If one supplier takes the cost-down measures too far and delivers sub-par power supplies which do not meet the customer's spec, the customer can take their business elsewhere. (Where they may have to pay a bit more.)It's essentially the customer's decision what balance of low cost vs. quality they want to buy. I am not aware of a historical situation where the whole supply industry said: "We will only deliver cheap shit, even though there is a demand for higher quality products, and the willingness to pay for the quality."

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2019, 11:02:23 am
content: Yep. If that were the case, TDK-Lambda, Delta, and Meanwell wouldn’t exist. But clearly they do, because there are tons of customers that want high quality power supplies.

author: Pitrsek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2019, 11:52:44 am
content: Quote from: treez on December 07, 2019, 05:20:37 pmI have no clue how someone from country that fought Germany so hard could write something like that. What about a good history book, or a visit to a war museum? I can recommend you a visit of a beautiful village of Lidicehttp://www.lidice-memorial.cz/en/Maybe after the visit, you can clear your mind about how the "Germany was forced against its will" ...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2019, 04:37:52 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 09, 2019, 11:02:23 amThose people do most of their engineering in Taiwan or other parts of Asia, and manufacture in China or other parts of Asia. Its not just the cheap end of the power supply market which has moved out of the west.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2019, 02:36:44 am
content: Well, increasingly they are engineering it in China as wellI mean with easy access to fast and cheap prototyping services and parts, and loose regulations/zero barrier to entry for entrepreneurship it was only a matter of time. I just hope they don't fuck it up with tightened tax enforcement.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2019, 02:45:36 am
content: Quote from: OwO on December 10, 2019, 02:36:44 amSome of the power supply plants around DongGuan do have their own design centres, but they seem to mostly do simple supplies there. The high value ones are mostly designed in Taiwan, and even HK. Its only a matter of time before most of that moves into China, but by then the manufacturing might be moving to Vietnam or Indonesia.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2019, 10:35:44 am
content: Quote from: coppice on December 09, 2019, 04:37:52 pmWhen did I claim otherwise? I was replying to the post above mine, which said:Quote from: ebastler on December 09, 2019, 06:24:36 amI said nothing about the location, just about the happy survival of non-low-end PSU makers.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2019, 03:19:12 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 10, 2019, 10:35:44 amI wasn't criticising what you said. I was pointing out that the entire industry, even the western owned parts, have moved to Asia. This is a trend. Where the low end goes, the high end follows. Its almost inevitable, as that's where most of the people who know how to engineer the stuff are located.As to your point more generally than power supplies, I think you are wrong. Take things like CD/DVD/BD drives. You can find high end and low end disc players, but the basic drive mechanics in all of them has become a bottom of the barrel piece of garbage with a low life time. There are lots of products like this, although you sometimes see the situation start to reverse. An example is washing machines. A few years ago we were left with bottom of the barrel junk, and Miele. Sure, you could buy an expensive machine from other makes, but it was just a dressed up version of the cheapest one. Maybe that got so bad, a market bigger than Miele developed for something genuinely better. People like Samsung and LG are producing high end washing machines which are genuinely more advanced, with innovations like direct drive.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2019, 03:42:26 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 10, 2019, 03:19:12 pmWell, I said that decent quality products will be made available "if there is a demand for higher quality products,and the willingness to pay for the quality." And that's a sufficiently broad demand and willingness, not just from you and me... I'll hang on to my Philips CD100 for the time being, with die-cast chassis and actual glass lenses.Actually, for the digital drives you mention the situation is bound to change. With digital downloads taking over, these devices are bound to become boutique gadgets 10 years from now, just like record players today. So hang in there, keep using your old CD player, until the new wave of high-end devices comes in!QuoteHmm, maybe the situation has differed in different markets? Solid mid-range quality whiteware has always been available here, e.g. from Bosch/Siemens/Neff.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2019, 05:02:37 pm
content: Indeed. I cracked open my fathers BeoCenter 9000. What a piece of shit that was inside.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2019, 05:07:16 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on December 10, 2019, 04:45:38 pmYup, just so.Typically a pretty wood effect case that looked swish in a stockbroker's living room. The extra expense was probably good for bragging rights.But crap internally.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2019, 06:41:13 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on December 10, 2019, 04:45:38 pmIf you bought a B&O TV in the late 60s it was excellent value. Sure it was expensive, but it was much more reliable than the alternatives, and lasted longer. In the early 70s B&O produced innovative audio equipment, like their parallel tracking disc players and quadraphonic systems. The decent from that to being little more than a high priced reskinner was rapid and sad to watch.