Why do lighting company bosses need to spend so much time in China? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 04:55:04 pm
content: HelloMy friend works in a lighting company in the North of UK.It is said to be a lighting designer and manufacturer.The company makes general lighting products, as opposed to highly customised/specialized lighting products.This lighting company has many products on its website that my friend has nevereven seen whilst working in this lighting company for the past three years.The company says that these products are simply put on the website to make it looklike the company has a wide range of lighting products.The company says it does not actually sell most of the lighting products that are advertised on its website.Some of the products on the company's website that it says it doesnt actually sell are stuff like T8 LED tubes, T6 LED tubes, hi-bay lamps,lo-bay lamps, induction lamps, etc etc..However, the engineer knows this isnt true, since he has seen a few of the failed/returned T8 tubes.The company's British boss spends a lot of time in China each and every year.He has done this every year for at least a decade.In the last year, the boss spent 6 weeks in China.Why would the boss need to spend 6 weeks in China?...every yearIt does appear that the company is just acting as a conduit for a massive importationoperation of Chinese lighting products into the UK.Would you agree?The boss of this company assures that he is very interested indeveloping British lighting products in UK.However, he has just invested and started up a separate company inthe farming sector, which is nothing to do with engineering or electronics.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 05:02:51 pm
content: He's the boss, he can do what he likes.You really haven't figured out how the world works, have you?

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 05:06:42 pm
content: Thanks yes i agree....but six weeks in China every year?.......i mean, surely you would have to be importing millions of lighting products from China to UK to need to spend that long in China?The engineer was offering to leave the company, as it appeared to simply be a China to UK lighting importer…and nothing else…..but the boss then said he should not leave, and then set him an SMPS LED driver project…The boss gave a small PCB size, and requested lots of circuitry, so that the PCB layout was pretty dense. The boss then insisted that all of the “signal” resistors and capacitors should be 0402 size, even though there was room to make them all 0603 size.The boss also insisted that the engineer would have to hand solder all of these 0402 resistors and capacitors onto the prototype PCB. The boss also insisted that the PCB should have no solder resist. The boss also insisted that the PCB should have no silkscreen.It seemed rather odd.The boss also insisted that the PCB only have two layers, and that LEDs should be on the top layer, and driver circuitry on the bottom, even though the tracking for the driver circuitry meant that there was virtually no room for thermal copper pours for the leds on the top layer.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 05:07:57 pm
content: You think 6 weeks/year in China for someone that is trying to develop a business, talking to developers and/or suppliers is a lot?Ah, and whatever donotdespisethesnake mentioned above.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 05:17:53 pm
content: QuoteThanks, so you agree that this company is basically likely to be a huge "China to UK lighting importation business"?----------------------- -------------------- --------------------The company in question is mentioned on a local enterprise funding website……on that website, the company is described as being the “UK’s biggest supplier of a [certain type of lighting product]”.I wont mention the particular product.........When the boss was asked about this, he became agitated, really quite agitated, and tried to distance himself from this. When further questioned about this , he stated that he had only shipped 4000 of these products.This particular type of lighting product is definitely one that was never designed or manufactured in UK. -Its a product that has definetely never been designed or manufactured in the UK premises of this company.................. ........................... ...................... .....................The British lighting company in question here does admit to actually employing staff in China…at least one member of staff is a Chinese national, living normally in China.He appears to be an expert in sourcing technical products from China related to the lighting industry.This member of staff has actually been invited over to UK, to take part in an adventure weekend, with the British staff members.The boss told my friend that whilst at university in UK studying engineering , he was introduced to Chinese people from whom he gathered Chinese business contacts in the lighting industry................ ............................ ............................. .........................Surely a British lighting company (one that sells general, common , lighting products) that had a genuine intention of becoming a genuine British lighting designer and manufacturer, wouldn’t want to be having such deep involvement with China?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 05:59:05 pm
content: Here we go, the friend strikes again.You need to realize that in a modern world it is next to impossible to make a commercially viable mass market product without involving China (or Asia in general).You will go bankrupt if you actually try to make light bulbs in the UK or US.What are you trying to achieve here? Uncover some real truth, or what?And yes, if it is a typical business involving manufacturing in China, 6 weeks per year sounds about right.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 06:22:34 pm
content: Quote from: treez on May 18, 2019, 05:06:42 pmNot necessarily. Perhaps after his research in China, he found that to compete with Chinese suppliers the only way to is to cut unit costs to the absolute minimum - like they do. It's called "competitive marketing".I appreciate that often management do things that don't make sense, and don't seem to understand the engineering. But a lot of the time, the management do have a very good idea of the costs involved and what is required to make a profit, and stay in business. Quite often I wish engineers had a little more business training, then they could perform more effectively. The goal of product engineering is NOT to create the best possible product regardless of cost.Really, your insular attitude is typical of the way UK industry has gone down the tubes. "We're British, so we must be the best, and all patriotic Brits should buy British". Sorry dude, that went out the window 50 years ago. You compete in the global market, or go home. Hanging on to the coat tails of Empire won't work.It sounds like the boss is actually trying his best to stay in business and giving "your friend" a chance to stay employed. Rather than question his every action, maybe "your friend" should actually try meeting his challenge, and come up with a product that can compete with Chinese suppliers?I guess there is a forum someone for CEOs, and someone is asking "how to get engineers to actually create the competitive design needed, rather than sit around doing things the same old way and criticizing motives of the boss? Asked for a friend".

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 06:28:46 pm
content: Thanks, yes, but i would say (and im sure you would agree) that trying to design eg a regular T8 LED tube that can compete on cost with a Chinese one is probably not the best use of time for a UK based engineer.I would recomend to my friend to get out and let them get on with their Chinese importation business, like they appear very keen to.------------ ---------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------Incidentally, there are some business operations (in other British or whatever companies) that cannot use Chinese lighting, but need it to be British designed and manufacturedfor whatever reason......But the submersion of the UK lighting market with Chinese lighting products means that the UK based engineers needed todesign the stated lighting products do not exist in the numbers required.---------------- ----------------- ------------------------------------------Again, you often see how British companies who import vast amounts of Chinese LEDlighting products, often like to be seen to be employing British Electronics Engineers, so that it lookslike someone at this end is actually checking that the Chinese lighting products are allright.However, the submersion of the UK into Chinese lighting products means that such British basedengineers do not actually exist, and are becoming scarcer by the minute.......slowly but surely,the globalist UK is digging itself into a very very deep hole!-------------------- ---------------------- ---------------------- ------------Its a bit like the electric motors and drives for the UK Royal Navel fleet...(eg our new aircraft carrier) .....they are entirely designed and built by the French.Is this a case for actually trying to nurture British industry in some way?...dare i say the filthy word..."protectionism"?Under French development, the electric drives & motors for these Royal Naval ships were first run in a dry land test bed in Leicestershire, UK.This was payed for by the British MOD budget.These were the highest power density electric drives in the world.The French company might possibly (who knows) have been able to also use this test bed (during the small hours) to do additional research on itso that perhaps the technology could also be lucratively used on their own civilian ship projects....Its great when your country rejects (British) designed and built electronics...and then the Brits find that Brits dont come intoElectronics in the necessary numbers any more.

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 09:30:35 pm
content: Doesn't the fact that your "my friend" stories became a kind of a meme here already bother you in the slightest? Also, are you able to refrain from thanking me for that post?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 09:48:24 pm
content: the only way to go over a bosses head is to involve the investors lolor read the corporate rule book to see how things are handled to curb such behavior

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 12:48:05 am
content: QuoteHe is a Spy.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 05:11:57 am
content: Why does treez need to spend so much time writing posts about a lighting company?

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 05:53:29 am
content: If your an engineer, I can try my best to explain,The manufacturers have various processes, and materials, ways of handling these things, but due to language gaps the people that know the juicy details of what costs exactly what is rarely given by email. sometimes things as dumb as a company tour will give you enough information to refine your processes to make them as dirt cheap as possibly with no reduction in quality,E.g. you may specify one grade and colour of plastic for all your products, but after talking to them in person find out the exact colour you requested costs about 7x as much as a nearby colour, equally by changing your moulding shapes you could get faster/cheaper production by trimming things towards what these companies specialize in. Again your mould might be a certain size, if it happened to be 2mm radius smaller, they might be able to run it on more than the limited larger machines they keep on standby for such items. or tweaking some part of it could increase yieldsThen there are other things, like PCB fabricators, unless you really dig into the meat of every way you can cut costs without making sacrifices, you just will never learn half this stuff, the blank boards are dirt cheap, most of the manual handling time is spent with the drilling and milling, equally removing silkscreening can shave off more than you think.And finally, Direct meetings with component suppliers, If your dealing with electronics, you will be sourcing something from China. Every single time, I have found they generally have feature stripped models of Chips for less from old OEM process contracts that ended, If they can still supply them in the future you can shave off a lot with this.The boss may not be doing any of this, he may just be playing PR, but that also opens doors to hearing about upcoming products, and nudging discounts from suppliers, buying the right person a few hundred dollar meal, can save a company tens of thousands.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 09:35:29 am
content: Thanks Rerouter that’s a great answer, and pretty well confirms that the company that my friend is working for is basically set up as a conduit for huge imports of Finished Chinese electronics goods into UK. As such, I will recomend he leaves the company , as he won’t be needed there.After all, we all know that certainly in lighting, Chinese stuff is just as high quality (if not higher) as anywhere else in the world, so he wont be needed there.--------- ---------------- ------------------- ------------------I must admit, years ago I visited an enormous Western server company that had just contracted its entire power supply design and manufacture operation out to Malaysia. However, they were struggling to find Western power supply designers to actually check the PSU designs that the Malaysians were doing for them.In order to check the design of a power supply, an engineer needs to have actively worked as a power supply designer………….the problem is, that with all power supply design work etc getting sub-contracted out to the Far East, the western kids are not choosing to come into electronics any more…at least, not in enough numbers…………..somewhere down the road, the western world is going to have a big shock……..first will be uk, which is the most global of all countries, and will subcontract out anything…even the electric motors and drives of our Royal Naval Fleet.And how many stories have already gone public of Type 45 destroyers having to be towed back into the harbour…often because the “sea was too warm”

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 10:14:47 am
content: You missed my point, engineering you can with certainty keep local, certain parts of manufacturing and assembly you can keep local, An engineers role in a company is to find optimized solutions. this solely comes down to what requirements are set forward, If you check the definition for "Made in the UK" you may find it is as lax as having some modification or alteration performed in the country, I know in Australia all a food item needed to meet a few years back was to just repackage the food item in question.China can produce some very high grade things, but If you approach it as chasing the lowest bidder, you will not find them, Equally not having at least 1 person in house who knows how to test what your receiving if you choose to import would be unwise.As an engineer his role could well be to do proper QC on this stuff when it hits the country, And Ping-Pong with OEM's and suppliers to get things back to the original specifications. an engineer does not have to be a designer or creator. there do exist roles in this world to catch production bugs just as there are code reviewers out there to catch software bugs.This is currently just one of the roles I have to fill, Recently a supplier changed manufacturers, a number of products had significant bugs that they had not caught in the first month of production, I spent about 2 days going over every part of the things, built a report to send back to the supplier, and 2 weeks later they where back in spec, with some free modifications that made the things better suited to how we where using them (If they have to re spin a board anyway, may as well add some points of concern)Equally whenever we get a product returned faulty, we tear that thing to the ground to fully identify the failure mode before returning it to the supplier, It does 2 things for a business, It prepares them with an action plan if more failures begin to turn up, how to identify the fault early, and may lead to identifying what batches these faults effected to prepare replacement stock on hand for certain customers with effected product. You don't always have to admit fault, but being able to support a customer the second the failure happens can make your company seem far more on top of this.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 10:23:42 am
content: Quote from: amyk on May 19, 2019, 05:11:57 amHe is just beinggratefultalkative on how his boss is always not in the office for hearing his vents, cause busy making money for the company, while he spends hisofficeleisure time on the net, whining in the forums, and the best part, getting paid for that, isn't that a good thing ?Feel sorry and pity the boss, really.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 12:16:09 pm
content: 4) he is a spy.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 01:50:41 pm
content: Thanks yes,I worked at one place where they had got a 70w offline SMPS designed and made in China.Its still manufactured in ChinaIts for a consumer product that sells in the 100's of thousands per year.They certainly dont spend six weeks every year in China after getting it designed there.Just one member of their staff (usually a sales person) goes over to the power suppply factory every year in China , for one day only, each year, and checks its not fallen into ruin.So A UK engineering boss going to china for Six weeks each year sounds like a huge China to UK importation operation.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 04:18:13 pm
content: Quote from: treez on May 19, 2019, 09:35:29 amWow. There could not be a more wrong way to read the situation.You understand that at some point of time or the other we all will not be needed at our current positions? It is just life, deal with it. If you enjoy the current job, and it pays enough money, then why leave?May be the boss is smart and understands that in the current wold situation there is no way to make money with a local only business. But you can get enough market share and start capital to move in that direction. And when this happens, people that work there will be advanced into management positions. There is a reason he keeps local staff, and as such local people are "needed".My firs job while I was still at the university was to do firmware engineering in a very small (3 people including me) department of a big importer of the telecom equipment. The only reason we had that job is that the owner genuinely wanted to bring up the state of local design and development. But he was also a realist and understood that the money to pay our salaries are generated by the main business. There is absolutely no way the secondary business would be successful on its own. Years after I left they actually gained enough momentum and spun off into a separate company, which my colleague at a time got to run and still runs it.Grow up and forget your idealist notions. The world is much more complicated than this.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 04:35:09 pm
content: Quote from: treez on May 18, 2019, 05:06:42 pmYou really can't figure out why somebody would spend 6 weeks in China? Offer me time in Singapore and I'll be on the next plane with no intention of coming back. Same for Thailand! I don't know anything about China but I would be willing to give it a shot.I'll give you a hint: It may not be job related!

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 05:03:56 pm
content: treez, I do not understand why you describe this like it's high treason for the boss to spend time in China. There are many business models for a British/European company which involve Chinese suppliers:You can design and produce products in Europe, and buy components or modules for them in China.You can design products in Europe and have them made in China.You can design and make complex products in Europe, and complement your portfolio with less complex products imported from China.And yes, you can be a pure importer and distributor of products from China.Companies of type 4 may be less attractive employers for engineers (although even those may employ application specialists). Working at a company of type 1 to 3 should be perfectly fine for development engineers.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 05:07:52 pm
content: QuoteThanks eBastler.I think his company is of your "type 4".There's no need for skilled designers to work at type 4....anybody with a bit of training can do it.His company has enough people with general lighting knowledge to be able to do everything that could be required of them in a type 4 place.His skills are simply not needed there.General lighting products from China are so good that there's not even need to be an engineer to import them.....his company buy T8 LED tubes and they hardly ever fail.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 05:10:08 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on May 19, 2019, 04:35:09 pmEach to their own I suppose. You'd have to offer me a lot of money for me to work over there: enough so I can pay of my mortgage and move back home within a couple of years.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 05:12:46 pm
content: Quote from: treez on May 19, 2019, 05:07:52 pmWhy do they keep paying him a salary then?It is possible that he has more skills than is necessary for what he does right now, but ultimately it is up to him to decide that. Some people prefer to work in a more comfortable and stable environment, even if their skills are underutilized. This leaves you enough energy to work on hobby project and not be constantly drained.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 05:20:58 pm
content: Dear treez,you are like a broken record, stuck on a Backstreet boys song.Repeating over and over again the same thing that nobody cares about.That China is stealing LED lamp assembly sweatshop jobs, and low end powersupply design.Get a hobby. Change career. Try doing something in electronics, that interests you, something that you like, something that brings you joy. It will be good for you.Kind regards,Someone who cares

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 05:55:43 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on May 19, 2019, 05:20:58 pmMaybethisis his hobby. The treez show.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 06:47:41 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on May 19, 2019, 05:55:43 pmI am surprised he is not talking part in the Detroit Street lighting failure thread. I was more surprised that someone else started it!!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 06:54:50 pm
content: Here's a link:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/uh-oh-detroits-led-streetlights-going-dark-after-a-few-years/Yes, I thought it was started by treez, until I noticed the original poster is different.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 07:22:31 pm
content: Travel the world. See how other people live. It gives you a different perspective on life.I admit I haven't seen the UK in person, but I have seen Finland, Sweden, France, Italy, Japan, Pakistan, Italy, Peru, Germany, Russia/USSR, Mexico, Canada, Panama, Hong Kong (before UK gave it back), Jamaica, and a few others I transited through but didn't see much of. In several cases I stayed for months, and in two cases an entire year. Add all 50 states of the USA, most of which are bigger than many countries.I could write a book on how to travel anywhere with 10 minutes notice, if I wanted to. That's how long it takes me to pack.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 08:44:52 pm
content: You should definitely tell this guy he shouldn't be spending so much time in China. Please let us know what his response is.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 09:04:57 pm
content: Quote from: treez on May 19, 2019, 05:07:52 pmI had gathered from your initial post that you assume this company to be essentially a pure importer. My comment was intended to point out that there is a continuum of other business models which involve in-house engineeringanda business relationship with China. Why do you think this company is/will be an importer only?QuoteSo that boss is well-advised to import and distribute those particular products, isn't he? Frankly, as an employee I would be more concerned if management werenotaware of the threats and opportunities coming from China.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2019, 12:51:07 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on May 19, 2019, 05:10:08 pmI came close to paying off my mortgage while working in Singapore as an expat. A great time in my life.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2019, 08:47:50 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on May 19, 2019, 07:22:31 pmYes. Living somewhere else than you were born gives an unique perspective on the world. You can be a lot more attentive, a lot more resourceful on solving problems. I've met people from my high school, and all they did was: Buy a house two blocks down the road, get to the local college and finish it, get a job two blocks down the road in a used clothes shop (not even kidding) and spend Saturday evenings at the bar a block down the road, which closes at 23:00. They were talking about how the local supermarket changed it's price by 3% and they dont know how they will be able to cope with it. Or something along those lines. I was about to blow my brains out just because listening for the conversation.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2019, 09:07:03 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 19, 2019, 05:03:56 pmThere is also Type 5 - Boss/Managers repeatedly use the company money to pay for their holidays, fix their cars and to pay/maintain a boat they use. All as business expenses.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2019, 10:12:22 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on May 20, 2019, 12:51:07 amSome months ago I met a young man while we were waiting in line to rent a car at the airport in Madrid and we got talking. He was a young Spanish architect who years earlier was looking for work and adventure. He was married at the time and his wife had a job at a bank. He convinced her and they moved to China where he found a job with a multinational architecture firm. I think he started out in Shanghai. This was 5-6 years earlier. Now he was working in several offices in Shanghai, Hong Kong and Guangzhou. He was having the time of his life he told me. A few months after they arrived in Shanghai they got divorced and the wife returned to Spain. I did not inquire but I got the impression some cheating on his part might have been the cause. I don't know. He told me he was doing OK in that department though. He is young and good looking and he told me many Chinese girls found him attractive and exotic and there were many European expats who needed an understanding ear and some consolation. He had a permanently full program. In Hong Kong he had joined some rowing club and it was a lot of fun. And he said professionally he was doing work he could not dream of doing back home until he had much more seniority. It was a dream job for him. He told me the firm he worked for built "boring" blocks of apartment buildings, hospitals, etc. and not any fancy artistic buildings. But they were huge projects. He truly was having the time of his life in every respect.In the end he could not rent the car because he did not have his driver's license with him so I gave him a ride into town and we shared some lunch while we talked about our experiences in China.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2019, 06:23:48 am
content: Quote from: Psi on May 20, 2019, 09:07:03 amsounds kind of like the mafia

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 12:35:27 am
content: It had to come to a Fibonacci facepalm, eh?

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 12:43:09 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on May 21, 2019, 06:23:48 ammore like tax fraud

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 12:01:10 am
content: Quote from: treez on May 18, 2019, 05:06:42 pmI'd say that your generally clueless and incompetent friend has found perfect company to work for.