Logic Analyser HP16500A Keyboard  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: AllTheGearNoIdea
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2017, 02:35:42 pm
content: HelloDoes anyone know if the optional keyboard for the HP16500A logic analyser is in anyway standard or just a HP special part. It looks a lot like a RJ45 connector. But not really that clued up on computer technology.Many ThanksRegards Chris

author: rfdes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2017, 03:39:50 pm
content: Hi Chris -Unfortunately that is a special keyboard and the connector is not a standard RJ45 connector. These keyboards interfaces are referred to as HP-HIL (Hewlett-Packard Human Interface Link). This was HP's version of USB before USB. Eventually, HP abandoned HP-HIL for USB. You can still find keyboards that use the HP-HIL interface. I have one that I would like to sell or barter. If interested we can link up on PM.Take care -Jim

author: AllTheGearNoIdea
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2017, 11:02:39 pm
content: Hello JimThat's interesting I may well be interested in that keyboard as I have a 16500C on my way from the US at the moment. However I have just started to play with the analyser. not sure whether or not I want to invest just yet. I have a 1631d and 1652 and now two 16500s A an C models. Plus a kirkusui. I have to admit I'm not really enjoying the 16500 experience so far they are just painful to operate and no intuitive to operate.I will send a PM regarding the keyboard.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 01:10:44 am
content: On the 16500C version they switched from HP-HIL keyboard and mouse to standard PS/2 keyboard and mouse.If you have a 16500C on the way just wait until that one arrives and use it instead of the 16500A. Much better in general with built in hard drive, network interface, and support for the 16555/6/7 series 1M/2M deep analyzer modules.

author: AllTheGearNoIdea
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 06:46:45 am
content: The only thing I like about my A is it's got the 500 MHz oscilloscope card and I need to check if this will transfer to the C I believe there is a compatibility list on here somewhere.I will probably keep both I'm really more of a test gear collector than a user of test gear. If I keep the A I also get to justify buying a old computer to prepare the 720kb floppy and all the wonderful pain associated with making system disks.I am a real HP fanboy but I have to say how disappointed I have been with HP user interface they appear to have made on all their analyser, everything is as hard as possible compared to my Kirkusui unit. They at first glance appear to lack even basic features to search through the data tables. I'm not saying they aren't there just I have not found them without several weeks committed to reading the manual.I only used a logic analyser for the first time a couple of months ago and now I own 5. So in my case TEA has been a short illness!My best regards Chrishttps://youtu.be/IsMIEcCh4_w

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 03:59:22 pm
content: Quote from: AllTheGearNoIdea on September 02, 2017, 06:46:45 amAgilent 16900, 16700, and 16500 Mainframe/Module Compatibility Matrixhttp://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/MainframeModuleCompatibilityMatrixMay2009.pdfAny module that works on a 16500A will also work on a 16500C, but not the other way around.The 16522A pattern generator module, the 16533A, 16534A scope modules, and the 16554A, 16555A/D, 16556A/D, and 16557D logic modules are not supported by the 16500A.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 04:16:36 pm
content: Quote from: AllTheGearNoIdea on September 02, 2017, 06:46:45 amI don't have many complaints about the HP logic analyzer UI myself. I have found it to be fairly straightforward to figure out most things without digging into the manuals.To search through acquired data you can use pattern markers to search forwards and backward from the trigger point for occurrences of a specified pattern. This is documented in the logic analyzer module manuals, not the mainframe manual. For example in the following 16550A module manual section on Pattern Markers starting on page 6-5 of the manual:HP 16550A 100-MHz State/500-MHz Timing Logic Analyzer User’s Reference, 16550-97006http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/16550-97006.pdf

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 06:51:12 pm
content: Quote from: rfdes on September 01, 2017, 03:39:50 pmAnd keep in mind there is no relation to the very similarly namedHP-IL (HP interface loop), which was kind of a serial equivalent of HP-IB/GPIB which was used for some calculators, peripherals and semi-portable test equipment in the early eighties, including some early logic analyzers.Quote from: rfdes on September 01, 2017, 03:39:50 pmSince subsequent logic analyzers used PS/2 keyboards and mice, it would be more accurate to say they abandoned HP-HIL for PS/2. USB came to HP logic analyzers with the 1680/16900 series, which came many years after the HP 16500A was discontinued.Quote from: gslick on September 02, 2017, 04:16:36 pmI agree. The one thing that can be annoying is that information is spread out across multiple manuals. This make sense, since obviously the UI for a scope or pattern generator will be very different than for a logic analyzer, but it does not help if you do not know precisely what you are looking for. It also makes the manuals for individual modules fairly long, making it hard to quickly identify differences between modules. Just having a generic logic analyzer module manual, a pattern generator module manual and a scope module manual might have been more convenient. Then the module-specific manuals could have just been limited to model-specific details. But obviously this is hard to foresee in advance when setting up a new system. I think the 16500 series was their first modular logic analyzer system, so they might not have known what modules they would bring out in advance.

author: AllTheGearNoIdea
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 07:12:28 pm
content: Thanks for all the great comments and information. So far I can only compare this to my much simpler Kirkusui. Obviously in terms of functionality they are apples and pears apart. You made a great point about the information being spread around and accessing the information you need more difficult as is the steep learning curve. I think the touch screen is amazing for the age of the equipment it works very well. I still don't think the software interface is good this could be because you have access everything through a menu rather than a push button. I assume they went away from push buttons due to the wide range of modules that can be installed.I think I'm going to struggle with this one but it's good to know we have experience on this site and help.Many thanks Chris

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2017, 09:32:29 pm
content: Quote from: AllTheGearNoIdea on September 02, 2017, 06:46:45 amIf you receive a working 16500C you wouldn't really need to set up an old PC just to deal with 16500A floppy disks. While the 16500A can only format and read and write LIF format floppy disks, the 16500B and 16500C can format and read and write both LIF and MS-DOS format floppy disks.With the network interface on the 16500C you could FTP 16500A system disk files to hard disk on the 16500C from a modern PC, then format LIF floppy disks on the 16500C and copy the 16500A system files from the 16500C to those floppy disks.Quote from: AllTheGearNoIdea on September 02, 2017, 06:46:45 amI have a logic analyzer collection problem myself. I currently have at least one example of a 1630D, 16500A, 16500B, 16500C, 1660C, 1670G, 16600A, 16700A, 16700B, 16702A, 16702B, 16900A, 16901A, 16903A, 1690AD. If I could only keep two it might be the 16901A and the 1690AD for their smaller size and modern functionality, but with some other trade offs.I also have some Tek TLA700 and TLA7000 gear which I never really use, mostly just personal preference.

author: AllTheGearNoIdea
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 05:26:51 am
content: Nice to see I'm not the only one with this addition and no need to suffer in silence. The comment about the C model being able to create and format disks is great I did not know that.As you said I have not read the manual yet but can the "A" make a copy of its own disks. It looks like the front drive has a proper HP system disk installed and the rear disk slot has a hand written disk label. I had a quick look using the disk utility I saw options to load files and view but not copy. I'm away from the machine for the next few days so probably a good time to read up on the manual.I really like the look of the TLA 700 but not managed to find one that looks in good condition with pods and reasonable shipping chargesThanks Again great comments really helpful regards Chris

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 12:46:45 am
content: Quote from: AllTheGearNoIdea on September 04, 2017, 05:26:51 amHP 16500A/16501A Logic Analysis System Reference Manual, 16500-90912http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/16500-90912.pdfChapter 8, The System Front and Rear Disk MenusNine disk operations are available:Autoload- Designates a set of configuration files to be loaded automatically the next time the HP 16500A/16501A is turned on.Copy- Any file can be copied from one disk to another or to the same disk.Duplicate Disk- All files from one disk are copied to another disk. All files on the destination disk will be destroyed with this operation. The copied files are packed on the new disk as they are copied and the new disk is formatted if it is required.Format Disk- Any double-sided, double-density 3.5 inch flexible disk can be formatted or initialized. The directory and all files on the disk will be destroyed with this operation.Load- Instrument setup and data can be loaded from the disk for the mainframe and modules. Inverse assemblers for analyzer modules can be loaded.Pack Disk- This function packs files on a disk. Packing removes all empty or unused sectors between files on a disk so that more space is available for files at the end of the disk.Purge- Any file on a disk can be purged (deleted) from the disk.Rename- Any filename on a disk can be changed to another name.Store- Instrument setup and data can be stored on disk.

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 12:48:20 pm
content: The rear floppy drive on the 16500A is VERY prone to having the lubrication on the head lead screw being cooked into solid gunk. If your rear floppy drive is not working, remove it and clean and re-lube the lead screw.And, if you use a 16500A, remove YOUR head, wash out the grey gunk, replace it with mashed potatoes, and get a 16500B/C. Working with 720 kB floppies is not a pleasant experience.Regular 3.5" floppy drives wont work in the 16500 B/C. Years ago, I tracked down the difference to something related to the index pulse / drive select / motor on timing and worked out how to work around the issues... alas, I can't find my notes on what it was.For most things I do, I prefer the B... it boots quite a bit faster than the C. Also the 250 MHz 16532A scope board... it's quite a bit more responsive than the 500 MHz 16534A ones. Also also, you can convert a 16533A into a 16534A by changing a couple of resistors. Sorry, I can't find my notes on which ones.The 16500 only works with very few brands of IDE drives (Quantum Fireball's and those are all failing by now). The software issues a couple of obscure commands to the drive, and most models don't support those commands. Finding CF cards that work is also very difficult.Even the exact same model of CF cards can have different controllers in them. I found one that worked and then bought all of them that a local electronics store had ... no returns allowed... but over half of them had a different controller chip in them and would not work. I have some industrial grade 2GB CF/IDE adapter cards available pre-configured for the B or C. PM me if interested. Alas, I had to pay stupid prices for the CF cards and less than half of them had compatible controller chips, so they run $40...

author: TimInCanada
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 07:53:54 pm
content: Quote from: texaspyro on September 05, 2017, 12:48:20 pmI don't know if this will work in other cases, but I just had a CF card that initially didn't work, work in a 16500C after formatting on a PC.I got a 512 MB innoDisk iCF card since this brand is mentioned on some sites as being compatible with the 16500. The IDE adapter was just a $2 unit from eBay.Initially the 16500 gave the hard disk error message and then time-out errors when trying to format the card, which seems to be the errors people get with incompatible cards.Out of curiosity, I put the card and IDE adapter into a PC with Windows 7. The PC recognized the card right away with no problems. I then did a disk format of the CF card specifying FAT files system (not FAT32) and 32K allocation file unit (no idea if this had any effect). Put the unit back in the 16500, which recognized the card right away as DOS disk. The 16500 format command worked right away. After putting all the system files back on, the unit runs fine off the CF card.So, if you have a card that looks incompatible to the 16500, it's worth trying to do a FAT/FAT16 format of the card in a PC. Nothing to lose and maybe something to gain.Tim

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 12:01:16 am
content: I bought some Innodisk iCF 4000 2GB CF cards on eBay a few years back along with some adapters to standard 40-pin IDE and power connectors. I put one in a 1660C and another in a 16500C. I don't recall any issues at all in just using the standard analyzer system software to initialize the CF cards and then copy over the system files.