Why no Farad or Henry meter? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 03:18:09 pm
content: We have Volt meters, Amp meters, Ohm meters, why no Farad nor Henry meters??Best,

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 03:20:09 pm
content: My multimeter has a capacitance meter... and I have an LCR meter in a storage box somewhere that can do henries, though it can't quite do farads (max 100mF).So they do exist...

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 03:26:07 pm
content: So why don't we call a meter that measures capacitance a Farad Meter (or uFarad meter), or a meter that measures inductance a Henry Meter (or uHenry meter)? We also call a meter that measures power a Watt meter???Best,

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 03:27:29 pm
content: Henry? - because there is the Henry Repeating Arms..(a firearms manufacturing company)

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 03:36:04 pm
content: You don't actually measure units. You measure a physical quantity and the result is designated with a unit. It would be better if it was called a current meter, voltage meter, resistance meter, capacitance meter etc.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 03:43:05 pm
content: We know, however we have Amp, Volt, Ohm and Watt meters, but no Farad or Henry meters??Best

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 03:57:01 pm
content: How about a "meter meter" to measure meters?

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 04:12:46 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on November 27, 2023, 03:57:01 pmThat's a good one indeed!!!Best,

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 04:14:14 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on November 27, 2023, 03:43:05 pmPerhaps the market is better for instruments with monosyllables in their name?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 04:16:00 pm
content: Gosh, amazing how many people miss completely the thrust of the first post, despite it being restated several times. But, sadly, that's what one expects nowadays - the viewer sees the words as they go past but doesn't really understand them

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 04:17:30 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on November 27, 2023, 03:57:01 pmNice (but shouldn't it be metre meter?).Or a litre meter.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 04:26:15 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on November 27, 2023, 04:16:00 pmThank goodness someone got the gist of thisBest,

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 04:26:59 pm
content: In France, it is pronounced (roughly) "me tre", hence the spelling.In America, it is pronounced "meet er", hence the spelling.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 04:27:42 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on November 27, 2023, 04:17:30 pmDepends on which side of the big pond, meter or metre and liter or litre!!Best,

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 04:37:53 pm
content: Here in GB it's hard to know which side of the pond one should stand on nowadays.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 05:02:06 pm
content: Quoteyou obviously need a pond meter to give an indication of were you nee to be.anyways back to the main event,could it be the size of the unit measured,very rarely do we measure 1 farad or 1 henry,its nearly always a fraction of the main unit.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 05:12:25 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on November 27, 2023, 04:14:14 pmWe used to use VOM similar to RLC. I think all of my meters are marked DCV/ACV for example rather than Volts. Takes up too much room.

author: antenna
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 07:20:29 pm
content: Amp, Volt, Ohm and Watt have the same implications irrespective of frequency. To make a similar meter with Henrys and Farads, the error from parasitics and self-resonances must somehow be accounted for. It is easier to pick a frequency and measure Ohms than it is to say with any certainty that this particular coil is 2.334uH at any frequency.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 07:33:41 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on November 27, 2023, 04:26:15 pmSo, back to your OP. In German, volt-, am- and ohmmeter are respectively called tension, current and resistance meter (Spannungsmessgerät, Strommessgerät/Strommesser und Wiederstandsmessgerät), but I think those are the formal names. I'm not sure how German speakers refer to their meters colloquially.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 07:35:04 pm
content: In the beginning, the capacitance was measured in Jars, because the first capacitors were in fact pickle jars filled with water, from the times when electricity was thought to be some sort of fluid, thus the jars that were filled with electricity by electrostatic machines.1jar = 1111pF Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jar_(unit)A battery of four water-filled Leyden jars, Museum Boerhaave, LeidenPic source: Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyden_jar

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 08:10:16 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on November 27, 2023, 04:12:46 pmWe have "Pizza pizza" fast food chain here.

author: harerod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 08:12:26 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on November 27, 2023, 05:02:06 pmI still have some old spring type Pond meters in storage, which have been replaced by Newton meters. A real challenge for our American friends, since a single letter would change the unit - Pound force meters - while measuring the same physical phenomenon.Make sure not to confuse with Newtonmeter meters (pound force feet meters?)...

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 10:04:54 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on November 27, 2023, 03:26:07 pmWe have LCR meters. The reason is that measuring pure capacitance (or inductance) is in practice of very little use, apart from quick checks, that many general-purpose DMMs embed. So that doesn't warrant a dedicated device.Same for measuring "power". There's more to it than just a value in W, so there's no point in making a dedicated device just measuring that (what power are you talking about anyway?) But there are devices such as "power analyzers", that can measure relevant parameters around the concept of power. Just lie for LCR meters - because a single raw value has no real practical significance, unless again you just need "quick checks", that again many general-purpose devices will offer.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 10:17:50 pm
content: SiliconWizard;Yours is the best answer, so far.Real world inductors and capacitors have parasitic elements which should be accounted for if an accurate reading is to be expected.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 10:28:42 pm
content: horse meter vs horse power meter both useful

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 10:43:58 pm
content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_de_SaussureI feel a course of general linguistics is over due

author: woofy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 11:03:10 pm
content: Quote from: armandine2 on November 27, 2023, 10:43:58 pmIts easily done. Separating a deliberate play like this from mistakes can be hard, especially when English is not the first language of many folks here.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 11:36:14 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 27, 2023, 10:04:54 pmWe don't have volt meters either - they are typically multimeters and do at least resistance too. Of course, you can get just plain volt reading meters for niche use, but then I am fairly sureyou can also get just plain capacitance metersif you have a niche for one. So why isn't that one a farad meter? Fewer syllables than 'capacitance' too (to head off other objections).I also don't think that capacitance depending on frequency and/or other stuff is relevant - the whole purpose of a capacitance meter would be to sort all that stuff out for you. That's why you pay the big bucks!

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 07:23:45 am
content: Well, if you really feel there is a need for one, then build it and sell it and see how that goes.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 08:53:38 am
content: Quote from: woofy on November 27, 2023, 11:03:10 pmSome of the respondents in this threadarenative English speakers, and still get it wrong...I find the OP's observation an intriguing one, and can formulate no logical or consistent answer.

author: retiredfeline
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 09:47:30 am
content: It's just that you usually don't have to monitor capacitance or inductance but monitoring voltage and current is commonplace. Resistance less so, but enough measurements are made that such a meter has a name.Ammeter is just far easier to say than amperemeter. Voltmeter doesn't trip the tongue so much. If meters for capacitance or inductance were commonplace, I suspect they'd get shortened to farmeter and henmeter.Of course what really grates is that a potentiometer doesn't measure potentios and is not a meter, but a voltage divider.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 11:18:07 am
content: QuoteSounds cool! Perhaps we could start atrendtiktok using those

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 02:00:11 pm
content: Well, the OED dates all of these terms to the 1880s (voltmeter,ammeter,ohmmeter,wattmeter). These would generally have been electromechanical single function instruments.Capacitors and inductor on the other hand were measured using (manual and later semi-automatic) impedance bridges until well into the 1960/70s. Those probably shouldn't be called meters at all since they were based on substitution. AFAIK it was HP/Yokogawa who introduced the name "LCR meter" with the 4332A. Single function capacitance meters were never really a thing. I suppose they could still have called it "HFO meter" but I guess tastes had changed. Also, popular impedance bridges like the Type 650-A, introduced by General Radio in the 1930s, labelled measurement modes "CRL", so I guess people would have been somewhat familiar with that already.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 03:26:01 pm
content: I'm looking forward to the memristance meter.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 04:08:51 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on November 27, 2023, 04:26:59 pmThe word is pronounced the same in the US (where it’s spelled meter) and the UK (where it’s pronounced metre) so this explanation is clearly not correct.It’s simply a classic example of American English ending in -er where British* English ends in -re. Like theater and center, whose pronunciations are also the same in the US and the UK. (Ignoring rhoticity variants, since both the US and UK have rhotic and non-rhotic dialects.)*British and all the other non-US dialects, with the possible exception of Canadian, which picks and chooses American or British spellings depending on the word… :p

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 04:19:04 pm
content: Quote from: retiredfeline on December 02, 2023, 09:47:30 amIndeed! It would have made sense to call it a “potentiostat” (a word that has since been claimed for a particular type of test equipment used in electrochemistry), since it sets the potential, much the way a rheostat sets current.Huh, and look at this: thereisa measurement device called a potentiometer:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiometer_(measuring_instrument)Since it contains at its core a potentiometer (i.e. a variable resistor), maybe the variable resistor got its name from this.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 04:27:29 pm
content: I'm Canadian FrenchWe are often using some american slang or the common ones, or the shortest appelations / namesor mix the english term in french discutions etc ... or anything who please lollmultimêtre, voltmêtre, amperèmêtre, joulemêtre, "capacimêtre" "Cap meter" lolllcr meter, lcr mêtre, voltmeter, "amp meter", electrometer, DMM, "Meter" aka multimetertrimpot, pot, slide pot, potmeter loll potentiometer is too long, but the old techs are still using the long name

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 04:47:47 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 02, 2023, 04:08:51 pmNote that I said nothing about British pronunciation and spelling in my post. I was giving my opinion on why American spelling prefers "meter".The divergence in spelling dates back to Noah Webster's extreme revisions starting in 1806, many of which (such as deleting "u" from "colour" and "ue" from "analogue") have persisted.His 1828 dictionary is available online:https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/meter"This word is most improperly written metre. How very absurd to write the simple word in this manner, but in all its numerous compounds, meter as in diameter, hexameter, thermometer, etc."

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 04:59:28 pm
content: In Romanian (a language from the Romance group - like Italian, Spanish, French, etc.) it is spelled 'metru'.The genealogy of the 'metru' word is from the Greek 'metron', which would translate as 'a/one measure' (as in one unit).In Ro, all the other 'metru' composed words have the same Greek-like termination:'diametru', 'hexametru', 'termometru', 'kilometru', etc.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 05:25:49 pm
content: I assume that in Romanian the pronunciation follows the "tru" spelling?

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 06:11:26 pm
content: Indeed.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 06:21:50 pm
content: Much of the spelling/pronunciation problems in English result from the collision of Romance languages (especially French) with the Germanic languages in the development of the language since 1066 (Norman conquest).The Roman alphabet is a reasonably efficient coding of Latin pronunciation, but it gets less efficient as the language to be spelled gets more distant from Latin, including Germanic and Slavic languages.When a Swedish associate tried to help me with a railway timetable, he insisted on pronouncing the station names in correct Swedish, to which I cried out in anguish "Is this is the Roman alphabet we are using here?"

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 07:12:47 pm
content: QuoteOther countrys bastardising it and claiming there version is the default standard.The clue is in the name "english" if an other country wishes to drop the odd letter out of words or change the order of the letters around then fine,but dont claim its english,find your own name.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 08:30:18 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 02, 2023, 07:12:47 pmThe problems to which I referred there are more prevalent in the UK than in US.For example, the pronunciation of "lieutenant".Specifically, the adoption of French words into the English language (long before 1776) often brought French spellings as baggage, despite native pronunciation of the words themselves.The best reference for these questions, written, edited, and published by an authoritative UK source is "The Oxford Companion to the English Language", from Oxford University Press (that's in England).https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780199661282.001.0001/acref-9780199661282Similarly, most Austrians speak German, as do many Swiss.Some Canadians speak French.Far more people in the Western Hemisphere speak Spanish than those in Spain.Similarly, for Portuguese.Live with it!

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 08:55:06 pm
content: Intriguingly, in English it's 'metronome' (etymology Greek 'metron' - the measure, plus 'nomos' - regulating).By the form 'meter', one would expect the spelling to be 'meternome', yet it is spelled 'metronome'.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 09:04:01 pm
content: In English (both UK and US), "metronome" and "metrology" are pronounced as in that spelling, with "tro" instead of "ter".("Meteorology" is from a different Greek root.)The important pronunciation difference is whether the Greek root is at the beginning or end of the word.Unfortunately, Americans often insist on spelling "theater" (as it is pronounced) as "theatre" (to feign Frenchness).However, "theatrical" is always spelled in an analogous fashion to "metronome", again following pronunciation, where the Greek root is at the beginning.Note that in both the UK and US, "metre/meter", "litre/liter", "theatre/theater", etc. are always pronounced with "ter".Also, "meter" meaning measurement device and "parameter" are always spelled "ter" in English.Since the metric system was first developed in France, French names (metre, litre, etc.) were applied to the new units, but when English-speaking people adopted them, the pronunciations quickly went to "ter".

author: Ground_Loop
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 11:33:31 pm
content: We don't have volt meters either - they are typically multimeters and do at least resistance too. Of course, you can get just plain volt reading meters for niche use, but then I am fairly sureYea we do.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 05:29:13 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 02, 2023, 07:12:47 pmYyyyeah, that’s not how languages work, buddy. The fact that you and I can understand each other without any difficulty is a very strong indicator that weareusing the same language. (Mutual intelligibility is a core criterion for whether two systems of speech are considered to be distinct languages vs. different dialects of the same language.)Bringing politics into the picture gets you the situation of Serbo-Croatian, whose two main dialects are now referred to as separate languages by their speakers, due to the bloody breakup of Yugoslavia. Linguistically speaking, they’re the same language, just as both British English and American English are dialects of “English”, which refers toalldialects of it.I’ve said this before and I'll say it again and again: it’s absolutely incredible (in the sense of incredulity, not admiration) how condescending, dismissive, and aggressive the British get towards Americans regarding the language, despite the fact that modern British English (in its numerous regional dialects) and modern American English havebothevolved away from our ancestral English of 400 years ago. Certainly neither dialect has any claim on being any more “correct” or “authentic” nowadays. And it’s also well-documented that where British and American English differ, it’s often American English that stays closer to the ancestral form. That’s not the case in this instance, but it is true a lot more often than you’d think. As for Americans: I’m not sure we should takeanycrap about our English from the country that is also home to Cockney and countless other regional dialects that teeter on the brink of unintelligibility. They have “bastardized” their language every bit as much as we have, arguably more so.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 05:46:25 pm
content: Quote from: retiredfeline on December 02, 2023, 09:47:30 amA potentiometer meters out electrical potential, hence the name.

author: andre_teprom
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 09:05:00 pm
content: I guess we don't have Farad and Henry meters because they're not as commonly needed in everyday electrical measurements. Farads are more about capacitance, and Henrys deal with inductance, which are usually used in more specialized situations.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 10:13:51 pm
content: However, one does sometimes encounter a "Coulombmeter" to measure charge.Many of the ones listed now are for estimating battery charge, but some are for sparks or surface charge.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2023, 12:33:28 am
content: Volts, amps and watts are all dynamic derived values. I wonder if that has a bearing, or if it's just coincidence that the group lend their names to instruments.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2023, 04:57:01 am
content: I completely understood the first post, can't figure out how so many people struggled?Yeah, it's interesting at least, You don't measure caps in "capacitances" (Please source a 25V 100uCapacitances capacitor!) neither coils in "inductances".If those are called LCR meters (Or just capacitor/inductor meters when doing only one measurement type), then the rest should be voltage/intensity/resistance meters, not volt/amp/ohm meters.And why is this called a flexometer?It measures distance, not flexing, so it should be called meter/distance/length meter !

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2023, 06:24:13 am
content: I think the prior post referencing the time frame of the naming nails most of the reason.With a residuum coming from the size of the units. Volts, Ohms and Amperes are quantities encountered commonly. But a Farad capacitor was unimaginable until 20 or 30 years ago. Henry inductors are not quite as outre, but neither is commonly encountered.I think the references to parasitics is a red herring. Many applications can neglect these in inductors and capacitors, and many applications care about parasitics in resistors and ripple, noise and other details in measurements of voltage and current.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2023, 08:51:47 am
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on December 04, 2023, 04:57:01 amAre you sure?QuoteI think you are arse about face on that. The question is why there are no 'farad' meters or 'Henry' meters, not noting that we don't use voltage or intensity or flex meters.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2023, 08:58:32 am
content: Oh, I thought we were talking about electronics or at least electricity since this is an electronic forum. Silly me. And then we get accused of not getting the point when the OP did a really poor job of making that point.So we are actually talking about linguistics, not electronics or electricity. Frankly I think we were deliberately (or ignorantly) deceived into this discussion and I, for one, do not like it. If the nomenclature for the instruments we use is a questionable use of language, English or otherwise, then just how very questionable and deceptive is the OP's use of language here? Far, far better language could and certainly should have been used in the original post. And I DO see the irony in that.Because topics like this waste the member's time, such deceptions should be against the forum's rules and members who practice such, weather it be deliberate or in their own great ignorance, should be advised against future occurrences.And, like it or not, the nomenclature we use in science and technology is often created by haphazard and/or accidental circumstances surrounding and following the initial or early uses of that technology. When you originate something or make it popular, the name you give it usually sticks. And the rest of us, at later times in history, are just plain stuck with it. It does no good to debate over what is should have been.Grow up! Drink less beer! And move on with your life.