Best/easy way to layout "paper circuits"? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: toddzebert
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 20, 2017, 06:36:51 pm
content: I'm making a small project circuit "kit" for an informal "makers" session, and I'm going the route of using card stock and 1/8" copper adhesive tape. The circuit I have is fine (an ATTINY85 and a few components), but I'm looking for a good way to produce a printed circuit "layout" that will have wide lines so people can place the copper tape over. Kinda likehttps://chibitronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/SAM_6633.jpg(but a bit more complicated)I've been essentially just a breadboarder so circuit layout hasn't been something I've really had to do.I've had some success with the PCB portion of Fritzing, and making the traces 125mils. Since that's wider than the DIP 0.1" pitch (100mils), I put the chip it in a socket and bend the wires out, but there's no good way to do that in Fritzing (or probably I just don't know?)I have considered just printing the Fritzing circuit to a PDF and then editing it in Photoshop.Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2017, 09:29:16 pm
content: How about just providing PCB artwork or a strip board layout instead?I've had to used copper tape when I was at school and didn't like it. The glue fails when soldered and it peals and curls: horrible stuff.

author: kalel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2017, 09:50:25 pm
content: I think that the copper tape sticks decently to normal printing paper. Not that a flammable paper is recommended for any work, I just experimented a little.There are some types of conductive glue sold online, I have no idea whether they could be used to draw some rough traces.Best of luck in any case!

author: toddzebert
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 05:17:29 am
content: Kalel,Yeah, the copper tape sticks fine to many things, including regular paper. I've experimented. I've also used the conductive glue/"pen" and I'm not that thrilled with it.I've tried with both my cheap-o 15/30W iron: I could barely get the paper to brown; and with my "better" 60W (up to "450C" it says) iron: I can quickly and easily burn a hole through the paper when suspended in air (no heatsink) although there's no flames, but on a surface it only browns it.

author: toddzebert
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 05:20:43 am
content: Hero999,Well, mostly because it's cheap, and easy - and I don't know how many will be doing this project.I've used the copper tape for a number of things, on a number of mediums including paper and I haven't had a problem. Perhaps it's a question of tape manufacturer and/or age?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 05:30:45 am
content: For simple projects you can use light card and brass folder pins to solder to.It's a bit like dead bug but with pads for the joints.This pic shows just one of the many my kids did at school.

author: toddzebert
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 06:42:51 am
content: What I'm really looking for is advice on how to create the circuit "PCB" diagram such that it can be printed and people can lay the copper tape over the lines.Anyway, after a bunch of futzing with fritzing (and using the "via" "part") I think I've got it.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 07:41:28 am
content: Quote from: toddzebert on May 22, 2017, 05:20:43 amQuite possibly. It was well over twenty years ago.Have you looked into using a PCB CAD program? There are plenty of free PCB design packages around which are free and should be able to do this easily. KiCad is probably the most common one and whiles it has its shortcomings, it should be able to do this easily.

author: toddzebert
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 01:23:44 am
content: tautech,Oh, that's interesting - I've never seen it done with brass folder pins like that. What are they using as wire between them (when there's not a component), like at the top from the "+" to the "1K0" lead?

author: toddzebert
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 01:26:29 am
content: Have you looked into using a PCB CAD program? There are plenty of free PCB design packages around which are free and should be able to do this easily. KiCad is probably the most common one and whiles it has its shortcomings, it should be able to do this easily.As I mentioned above I seem to have found success with Fritzing. I've looked briefly at KiCad but it seemed somewhat overwhelming and not quite worth the investment of time at this point.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 01:52:46 am
content: Quote from: toddzebert on May 23, 2017, 01:23:44 amThe wire is there, perfectly on the line on the card so a little hard to see.The original image is from this post and you can download the thumbnail file and enlarge it to see things better.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/school-children-and-take-it-apart/msg730756/#msg730756

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 02:07:50 am
content: Here's another just shot showing a 2 person quiz button indicator, the buttons having been fashioned with the brass folder pins.

author: toddzebert
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 08:22:12 am
content: tautech, thanks - that's something to consider.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 08:40:40 am
content: Quote from: toddzebert on May 23, 2017, 08:22:12 amA quick look for the author Denis Burchill online found several hits but I think there will be resources somewhere if you go looking here:http://www.burchills.info/

author: toddzebert
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 05:10:41 pm
content: tautech, cool - thanks!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 08:11:00 pm
content: Fritzing is crap, it's easy to get started but very quickly it will only hold you back and cause you to spend more time trying to find workarounds. My suggestion is learn to use KiCad, it's quite good, very powerful and completely free. Once you learn the process there, you can figure out any real EDA with relatively little effort.As far as copper tape on printouts, that seems like a very roundabout way. Wouldn't it be easier to just point to point wire on perfboard? I do that, or deadbug on copper clad, or for more complex circuits that I need in a hurry I use toner transfer to etch a PCB. Otherwise I just send the files off to China to have some boards made, it's so cheap these days that it's really difficult to justify other means unless I'm in a rush.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 09:18:09 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on May 22, 2017, 05:30:45 amWhen I was a kid we did something similar; a printed circuit diagram was glued to a piece of wood and round head nails tacked in at the nodes. Component leads and wire was then wrapped around the nails and soldered when everything was in place. It was a good instructional tool; too bad the training was so menial it didn't teach anything about how the circuits worked, which kinda made it a waste of time. This was in the 70s.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 09:31:54 pm
content: It was the 90's when my kids did these, they were ~12. What they got probably more than anything was good basic soldering experience. Back to these designs....great for those with no prior soldering experience, no tracks or pads to lift from too much heat or dwell time and tinning to the brass folder pins is easy. They're quite large enough to watch the flux do its work and the solder migrate over the head. Simple but invaluable knowledge for the learner.My youngest was a couple of years ahead in experience by the time he got to the same age and topped his year in electronics.

author: toddzebert
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 27, 2017, 02:26:42 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 23, 2017, 08:11:00 pmThanks for encouragement on KiCad. I have it, I just need to have a project that will motivate me to spend time with it.Copper tape on printouts is perfect for my target audience in this specific case. I could do wire and a perfboard but it's more things to buy and explain. Putting tape on lines everyone knowsAs for making my own board I haven't come up with any circuits that need their own board yet.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2017, 04:16:43 am
content: I understand why you are doing the way you are doing, but for a quick way to build a circuit that is small you could try Manhattan Style. It is kind of a cool way and very effective if done correctly.