Hakko FX-951 for $120? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: anvoice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2015, 10:06:41 am
content: I'm thinking of upgrading my soldering iron station. Current (Yihua 936) broke down, might be repairable but I feel the investment in a better iron can save me good time in the long run as I start doing more electronics work. I was leaning towards the Hakko FX-888, which costs around $90 cheapest, when I found a new FX-951 for $120. From what I've read seems like a very high quality station that lacks nothing for a hobbyist.Any reason not to get this station for this price? Perhaps I'm missing something, but that seems like a bargain for the station (yes, the iron and even a tip are included). Only worry is that it's a knockoff, but I can always return it if that's the case since it claims to be a genuine Hakko.Suggestions?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2015, 10:11:51 am
content: Hako are no better or worse than anyone else and these days and are just running on the fumes of their fame. I use a cheap and chearful Tenma station and am quite happy.

author: anvoice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2015, 10:17:04 am
content: I was actually ok with the Yihua, but now that it broke and I tried using a pencil iron the difference can really be felt. I'm thinking as I start doing more electronics work the extra speed/comfort of a slightly better model, as well as the time I don't have to spend fixing it, might be worth it. That was my reasoning.From reviews it seems like an excellent unit, regardless of Hakko's current state. The basic question I'm asking is whether it's a good bargain for the price. It just seems suspiciously low so I was wondering if I'm missing something (unless it is a clone).

author: RobertHolcombe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2015, 10:37:55 am
content: That is a great price, definitely worth the additional $30 if it is legit

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2015, 10:58:14 am
content: Quote from: Simon on February 21, 2015, 10:11:51 amHakko is significantly better than any clone of it, especially heater and tip quality. Clones usually have huge gap between them, therefore poor heat transfer. Particularly Tenma is just crappy rebadged Atten. However Hakko don't make the best soldering stations available. There are much better in the wild, usually at higher cost though. Like Ersa, JBC, Metcal and few others. Another thing to consider, Hakko is heavily counterfeited and one shall buy it only from reputable sources andNEVERfrom China as it will be 99.9% fake. Also I don't believe you can buy genuine FX-951 for $120.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2015, 01:01:25 pm
content: I second wraper. You haven't listed your country, so we don't know where you are from. I did some searching and couldn't find a 951 for under $200 USD. At $120, it is most certainly a fake. It is interesting that even though the Hakkos are not the best quality, they are the most heavily counterfeited. Use your Google Fu and look for authorized Hakko distributors in your country and you will find out just how much the Hakko costs. I would still go with it. I have a real 936 and love it. I did a mod to stick a green power LED in it because I have left it on a few times. I didn't get fancy like Dave and use a bi-color LED for the FX-888. Also buy genuine tips, again from the distributor. The China fakes wear out way too fast.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2015, 02:38:17 pm
content: I don't know much about my Tenma iron, I got it from farnell quite cheap, it works I've even soldered 8AWG wires to solder bucket pins, did the job with no problem using the correct tip. Nothing wrong with it. I spoke to a Hakko rep in the UK and I gleaned that the hakko also uses the heating element as the temperature sensor so really the control method is no different.Given the way hakko carry on i have no reason to back them, they pick and choose who can sell their products and where and for how much and they won't let them be sold on ebay in the UK, I don't know about other countries but beware if your buying one on ebay because if a UK reseller sells them on ebay they will just end the deal with them so it can't be genuine on ebay in the UK for example. They also just don't listen to feedback hence you have the stupid digital version that is not as well liked as the analogue one because they think they know what they customers want better than their customers.....

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2015, 04:23:54 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 21, 2015, 02:38:17 pmMethod might be the same, quality of implementation is different. Opel and Mercedes cars work by the same method too but I doubt you won't see the difference.

author: anvoice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2015, 09:49:17 pm
content: Seems you're right. It was an ebay listing. When I asked the seller if he can confirm it's genuine, he said no and the listing was ended.Out of curiosity, does anyone have any opinion on whether a genuine FX-951 would be worth it over the 888? I'd be willing to pay an extra $150 if it saves me time/effort in the long run, but there's a lot of stuff I need to buy and I'd rather not splurge unless necessary. If the 951 is just a lot more comfortable to use or does a better quality job, it would be worth considering though.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2015, 10:37:54 pm
content: The FX888 is pretty damn good. It's hard to imagine anything better which would be of use to a hobbyist.Even a professional would be well at home with two or three FX888's with a different tip size on each.(I have the analog control FX888, never used the digital one)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2015, 11:11:46 pm
content: Quote from: anvoice on February 21, 2015, 09:49:17 pmWhere are you located? If in US, then maybe. If in Europe then better to look at ersa I-CON pico or nano instead.

author: anvoice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 01:50:16 am
content: In the US.Trying to strike a good balance between budget and quality. Difficult since I'm just starting out: don't want to overpay for unneeded functions, but want to save time and effort in the long run. E.g. my Yihua 936, which cost something like $30, worked fairly well (much better than the pencil iron I'm repairing it with) but the iron connector partially came off the pcb despite fairly light use... Now I can probably put some wires down between the correct pads and fix that with some solder and hot glue over it, or buy conductive epoxy (not cheap) and fix it that way. But if I had a quality station to start out with, problem might have been avoided.In addition, the time I save soldering with a nicer iron may well be worth a bit extra cash.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 02:15:18 am
content: Quote from: anvoice on February 21, 2015, 09:49:17 pmYes IMHO.You also have alternatives at that kind of money as well, and as you are in the US, you'll even see decent used products come up on eBay that would be worth your while (just make sure it has the minimum pieces to make it all work, and that there are still spares and tips available).Few examples:JBC setup(uses cartridge tips)Weller WD1 + WSP80(uses regular tips, but still an excellent performer; also has options the FX-951 doesn't, such as the smaller WMP iron, solder pot, and hot plate)Hakko FM-202(uses the same tips as the FX-951)Also, if you go into your user profile and set your country, the flag will display beneath your userID. Makes it a lot easier for everyone (stops the "where are you" questions every time, and ultimately gets you relevant links/information).

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 02:17:18 am
content: Quote from: anvoice on February 21, 2015, 09:49:17 pmWhat you are getting with the 951 over the 888 is the ability to quick change the tips. It also looks like the handle is slimmer in the style of the Metcal irons. You would have to decide if those to things are worth the extra to you. If you want an iron with curie point control, the Thermaltronics TM-2000 is in the same price range and seems to have a good rating. With both options, the tips will be more expensive but, with care, any quality tip that is not a knock off will last.

author: anvoice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 02:47:25 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on February 22, 2015, 02:15:18 amThanks, I'll look into that list. Also thanks for the profile tip.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 01:53:06 pm
content: Soldering iron: thing that gets hot and maintains a temperature with reasonable accuracy that has a variety of interchangeable tips available.It's that simple, if you want to be an iron snob then plenty of people will be happy to take anything up to 1000£/$ or more just so that you can feel that your hot stick with interchangeable tips is better than any other.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 02:31:18 pm
content: I got that sick of trying to get one of Hakko's authorised retailers over here to sell me something I ended up getting one of thesehttp://www.banggood.com/HAKKO-FX-951-Style-230V-AU-Plug-Solder-Soldering-Iron-Station-p-932704.htmland haven't had a problem. It lacks the "switch off" iron stand but I'm sure if you use it enough to need that it'd be an easy mod. If you're happy with buying a copy I'd seriously consider the 120V version.If I ever manage to buy or in some other way obtain a genuine one, or just a genuine handle and tip, I'll do a comparison review.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 02:33:49 pm
content: The strange thing is that if hakko gave permission to sell on ebay then all of the fakes would start to be swept away, but no, how do you stop ebay selling fake copies ? you ban sales of the genuine products.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 02:57:43 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 22, 2015, 01:53:06 pmYou are wrong. If doing some smaller stuff or some heavy job, you would find that average solder station really sucks. Because of the solder iron size, heat capacity and tips available. For example, I don't know any tips for hakko stile irons that would be easy to use with <0402 parts on multilayer board which just transfers all the heat away.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 03:02:12 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 22, 2015, 02:33:49 pmThe strange thing is they won't take my bloody money! And yeah, how funny they are about who can sell their products and where doesn't help either.It's a shame too, even with the mark up for being in the UK they seem to make very good products for the money, a 888D for £100 isn't much more than an equivalent "no name" option for example, and even at £200ish (including tip) the FX-951 isn't terribly priced, and I'm sure if there was more competition that could come down to more like what the rest of the world charge. I've half thought about getting a collective buying campaign up and running but I bet they wouldn't sell to me lol.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 03:06:11 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on February 22, 2015, 03:02:12 pmDid you trydancap.co.uk?

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 03:15:07 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on February 22, 2015, 03:06:11 pmYup, emailed them my order and requested their bank details a few times, they never got back in touch. Grosvenor won't even give me a price. I might in a month or so try through my business but I'm not sure how much trouble that could get me in with the tax man.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 04:07:16 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on February 22, 2015, 03:15:07 pmPerhaps try a phone call first (suspect you'll get far better results than you have with email)?

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 04:19:46 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on February 22, 2015, 04:07:16 pmUnfortunately my speech impediments make me sound even more like I've got learning difficulties than my writing doesso I didn't think of that. I'll try keeping calm and giving them a ring sometime next month, I can't really afford to make an order until then.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 04:57:37 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on February 22, 2015, 04:07:16 pmThey are just a family business, I spoke to them and the guy was very helpful and willing to talk to me. Unfortunately they have their hands tied by hakko who run their business like it's 1915 not 2015.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 05:03:36 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 22, 2015, 02:57:43 pmPray what do these special tips look like and are they made by hakko as well ? I spent under £50 on my Tenma (or whoever made it) and there are 20+ tips available for it from cones that go down to a sharp point to a 45 degree 4.5mm tip, it is 60W which is as powerful as any iron and like i said i used it on 8AWG wire so it's a decent start and I've soldered smd as well. People get so het up over brands. Having said that I don't use mine that often so I can't vouch for durability but spare irons and elements are available. Your either buying an entry level iron for occasional work or your buying a top notch one that will last years and has a guarantee of spares availability and support. I think at either end personal preference makes more difference than a particular brand if they sell for around the same.

author: netdudeuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 05:05:56 pm
content: I bought my FX888D from Dancap with no issues. The payment method is a bit odd but that is all.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 06:16:52 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 22, 2015, 05:03:36 pmIn the past I worked 4 years at service center which is authorized by all major phone manufacturers, so do have some experience in soldering tiny stuff. That's why I said multilayer board, there is no issue on DIY 1-2 layer PCB's. Some tiny SMD part soldered to the ground plane of 8+ layer PCB can sink almost as much heat as your 8AWG wire. The difference is you won't solder it with 4.5 mm tips. Then tool will make the difference. Or soldering some metal shield or heatsink mounting tab with a lead free solder. For example, on ersa I-CON I can solder 8AWG wire using 1.6 mm chisel tip and SnCu0.7solder which has 227oC melting point. Iron is set to 320-325oC temperature. On the picture compared with Hakko 907 clone iron. That tiny Ersa iron have 150W power. I don't say that lesser soldering stations are crap, they are actually good, just oppose your point about better soldering stations being for iron snobs. More expensive tools do make real difference.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 06:40:03 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 22, 2015, 06:16:52 pmYou do seem to be getting a little confused. Firstly we are talking about irons in the sub 60 watt category as this is the type of power iron being discussed. A more powerful iron is not going to help you solder things any better. If you have a temperature controlled iron that maximum power will rarely be reached that is the whole point of a temperature controlled iron it doesn't burn it's nuts off running at the default power it regulates temperature and put in the required power. If you are soldering a large item more heat will be sunk away from the tip more quickly so yes you will need a more powerful iron. However you are forgetting the bit between the component and the heating element which is the bit. It is of a certain diameter, it is capable of carrying a certain amount of power in terms of heating power, your iron can be the most powerful thing in the world if your bip is small it can only deliver so much heating power, the only way to increase the heating power without increasing the size of the tip is to increase the temperature of the soldering iron which brings us back to having the appropriate bit. I believe the correct method of working with surface mount would be to use a hot air soldering iron and if you are populating a bare board you would probably pre-heat the whole board on a hot plate before using either method of soldering.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 07:18:07 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 22, 2015, 06:40:03 pmI don't see anywhere max power being defined as topic we are talking about. High end soldering stations like Ersa or JBC do have more power at smaller size, should I talk about low end models? You don't understand what you write, first you said that expensive soldering stations are for snobs, then argue about them being in different leaguewhen I start writing about them. You talking about bit size as bottleneck, but I already said that small very high quality bit can transfer as much heat as bigger bit of lower quality. In particular Ersa with the 1.6mm tip which is on the photo, there is only about 8 mm from the heater end where temperature sensor is located to very end of the tip. And about 5-6 mm to the actual solder you are heating. Moreover tip/heater construction is what makes a huge difference how much heat can be transferred. How temperature is controlled also is a big deal. As in this particular Ersa case, temperature sensor is very close to the tip, temperature is controlled very tightly. When you touch the soldering point, station instantly increases the power to keep the same tip temperature. This is not the case with the Hakko clone iron on the picture I posted. 150W is peak power, but it is there when instant heating is needed to keep the temperature.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 07:34:27 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 22, 2015, 06:40:03 pmHot plate is essential tool. Makes life a lot easier, however, not always you want to heat the board or waste time to heat it for soldering one tiny part. There might be some sensitive unremovable or difficult to remove component nearby, like camera. Depends greatly on situation. Total iron length is a big deal too. You have more control when hand is closer to the tip. And trust me, you do want to control the iron, when there is shitload of tiny components with less than 1 mm distance between them.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 07:37:13 pm
content: I suggest you look at comparing the principles of electrical power transmission to those of heat power. Voltage is equivalent to temperature, the diameter of your conductor will determine the amount of whatever is equivalent amperage to get sufficient power to the tip end.What I'm saying is that if you buy two irons to do the same job with one being vastly more expensive you probably won't be gaining anything but the name. The Hakko is much more expensive than my iron yet they both work on exactly the same principles so what would you advantage of buying a Hakko be? If you are buying an iron that actually has a temperature sensor inside it then that would be worth paying some money for if that sensor is positioned so that it is as close to the tip end as possible.My considerations when buying an iron are that it be as small and light as possible as this makes it easier for me to use. I'd also want a nice flexible cable which would therefore need to be silicone sheathed.The only reason to require the temperature sensor to be as close to the end of the iron as possible which incidentally requires the tip been hollow which incidentally means it will be able to transmit less power is if you are trying to heat a large object with a small tip. So maybe in particular circumstances you might need a particular type of iron but most people will get by with cheaper iron. The iron you are referring to properly cost an awful lot more than anything that is being discussed here. Unless you are going into the realm of that type of iron then most things will work for the beginner. My way around the situation you describe is to increase the temperature of my iron knowing that the tip only has a certain amount of heat retaining capacity and that the item I'm soldering will quickly sink that away. If the heat is being quickly sunk away the only way of maintaining temperature at the point of solder would be increase the temperature unless you have a very very good iron.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2015, 08:41:30 pm
content: I say again this is all about your post about snobs, not purchase recommendation.Quote from: Simon on February 22, 2015, 07:37:13 pmI suggest you to think one more time how the heat transfer works. Imagine transistor mounted on the heatsink. It's die temperature is 100oC while heatsink is only 50oC hot. Transistor is dissipating 50W of power. So yeah, thermal resistanse between transistor die and heatsink is 1oC/W. But here is the question, is there any power between the die and the heatsink miraculously dissipated into nowhere, or all of it gets transferred to the heatsink even if they have different temperature?Or other case. You are making reflow oven. Do you care more about IR heater temperature or actual temperature at the PCB? So what you will measure, temperature of the PCB or assume PCB temperature by measuring heater temperature?QuoteYou basically do not care how heat is transferred within the tip. All you want is it to keep the end of the tip within particular temperature. Heater inside may be 1000oC hot. If temperature at the end of the tip is appropriately controlled, you do not care about this. But trust me, Ersa tips do have low thermal resistance and very tiny gap between heater and tip. BTW there is no difference if the heater is made around the rod or tip is hollow if cross section is the same (if the same thermal resistance material is used).QuoteI-con pico which is quiet similar to this one (solder iron is of the same look, just different color. Less power, same tips) cost less than FR-951 and I-con nano cost a bit more. Comparing Hakko US and Ersa EU prices. Hakko 951 in EU likely is even more expensive than nano.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2015, 04:56:30 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 22, 2015, 07:37:13 pmThat it works better and tips will last longer. For example, compare tips for 907 style soldering irons as this is what is most cloned. If you search a bit over this forum and internet, you'll find that they produce very different results, yet work by the same principles and do have very similar design. But internally they are crap and usually are made from different materials / proportions of them.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2015, 12:54:54 am
content: Quote from: Simon on February 22, 2015, 07:37:13 pmSo you're saying everything is absolutely identical other than a name plate (performance, reliability, ...)?That's a HUGE assumption to say the least. Lets take a real Hakko, say a 936 station, and a clone of it for example. Even if the circuitry is identical, things such as tolerances and materials will make a difference (think thermal transfer). Seems small, but it's not irrelevant to the performance. Which is why some try to compromise by installing genuine Hakko heating elements and/or use genuine Hakko tips in their knock off Chinese stations to improve matters.And then there is when you're comparing different technology. For example, you'd really stack the performance of your Tenma to a JBC?Cost aside a moment, the JBC a massive advantage in it's performance. Extreme comparison I know (basic, entry level super budget model v. top end professional unit), but the difference in technology used is drastic. Even if you substitute a Chinese station that uses simple plated copper tips and another Chinese station that uses a cartridge tip made in the same factory (Aoyue offers both for example), relative to one another, the Chinese cartridge system has a performance advantage over the 936 clone.As per cost, keep in mind, other features/advancements such as short tip to grip for better control without burning the piss out of the operator and cartridge tips that help create that better performance isn't cheap, let alone free. And small usability details such as silicone insulated cable between the iron and base unit, stands that actually remain upright, perhaps also being tied to a setback feature (setback when the iron hits the stand or timer, whichever the user programmed), ... types of things add to the manufacturing costs as well.To top off the cost differences, crappy equipment actually tends to have increased costs associated with it (i.e. additional man hours spent fixing damage, replacement costs due to damage when it can't be fixed, and consumables due to shorter cycles).Finally, there's the aggravation associated with poorly performing equipment, even when you get it to work without causing any damage to the work piece. Just not worth it once you've done without it IME.Just something to think about at any rate...Now if you're actually just meant to make a point about the gouging that usually goes on regarding soldering and T&M equipment pricing in general in the UK & rest of Europe (i.e. swap currency symbols in front of US pricing value), I'd agree with that.

author: sjg0
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 24, 2015, 07:09:22 am
content: I love the one I bought for my business. We paid $250ish I think and it was WELL worth the money.I may not be an old-timer, but I've certainly had my fill of irons. Everything from the $5 cheapies to some really stellar $1000+ units.While soldering is still a honed skill, having a good tool at your bench makes a HUGE difference. I'm not ashamed to admit that with this unit I can pretty much do 0.5mm pitch IC's all day, but with a $30 radio shack unit, I can't solder some damned 0.1" (in) arduino headers to save my life. It's pretty much got the thermals down also; there was only one instance that it took a few seconds to get the solder flowing: I designed a PCB with a fat 2oz Cu ground plane that connected to an even fatter SMPS inductor haha!With some tools, I judge the quality by how much abuse they can take. I regularly leave this thing on for hours, even once or twice over the weekend (in the holdster thing). The tips do lose their shine over that period of time, but nothing a little solder and jamming it in the gold sponge doesn't fix instantly.My only complaint about this unit is that the tips stay VERY firmly in the handle. Removing the tips is actually really uncomfortable to do with the little rubber pad that comes with it because it's only a few inches square and I'm afraid of slipping and somehow burning myself. In my experience the more expensive units seem to have a much better handle on this.Anyway I think this is a great unit. If you are certain it's genuine buy it right now. And send me the purchase link so I can get another. However I think $120 is super suspicious....