IMPORTANT! POLL: Removing Support for TapaTalk? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 04:34:34 am
content: See here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/suggestions/please-abandon-tapatalk-(clickjacking!)/The Tapatalk app seems to be "clickjacking" forum links. I don't like this and am considering pulling forum support entirely. They do this in addition to the ads which I have no problem with.I know a lot of people use Tapatalk, so please have your say.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 04:41:56 am
content: My personal preference only, "IF" (big one) the click jacking somehow have contribution to EEVBlog from the click-jacked ads, then probably I will change my current vote to support Tapatalk running in this forum.As its not clear on that part, then .. NO, ditch it.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 04:47:50 am
content: I don't use Tapatalk. I've looked at it once or twice but not found it compelling enough to care about. I uninstalled it from my devices.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 04:52:02 am
content: The damn thing is agressive and annoying, voted to remove it.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 05:02:56 am
content: What are the implications for those who don't use TapaTalk if the support is removed? I ask that because there's an option "No. I don't use TapaTalk".

author: Wirehead
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 06:48:31 am
content: I find myself using the full version, even on mobile. Tapatalk is horrible. Voted to remove.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 06:50:23 am
content: Do you have to be on a mobile device to use tapatalk. I can only recall seeing it on a few rare occasions when I tried accessing the forum from a tablet. I recall it seemed annoying at the time.When you look at the stats for user active you see a mobile device icon next to very few members but not against guests. So the poll might not be representative if guests cannot vote.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 07:01:13 am
content: Quote from: Wirehead on September 17, 2019, 06:48:31 amSame here.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 07:15:08 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 17, 2019, 04:43:39 amFire is to kind, use chlorine trifluoride.Burnt it in a big fluorine fire along with the server it's running on and 1 meter of concrete under that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 07:16:41 am
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on September 17, 2019, 05:02:56 amZero. I just disable the plugin.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 07:19:18 am
content: Agree to remove. Mobile view works fine enough.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 07:20:05 am
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on September 17, 2019, 05:02:56 amyeah, the poll options are a bit weird and they threw me for a sec as well.I accidentally clicked the wrong poll option and there's no option to fix, if an op can undo my poll entry i will redo it.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 07:23:00 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 17, 2019, 04:43:39 am^ THIS ^

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 07:26:10 am
content: That's surprising, not a single person who uses it has voted to keep it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 07:33:32 am
content: Quote from: Psi on September 17, 2019, 07:20:05 amYou can now change your vote.BTW, mod and admins can't see who voted for what

author: Bratster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 07:35:36 am
content: I'm kind of on the fence.I use it and I like the interface....for the most part... and when they are not breaking it...But I'm really disappointed in Tapatalk being so shifty, I wasn't aware of this link redirection bullshit.I posted a link to the original thread on one of the small forums that I follow that has a few guys that are internet privacy and security oriented people on it, and they use tapatalk as well.I'm curious as to what their response will be.I wonder if this is Tapatalk in general is doing this or if somehow that's an option in the plug-in that can be disabled?Seems like in general there would be a lot more people with privacy concerns about Tapatalk on multiple forums.Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 09:36:59 am
content: Although I don't use it, I voted to remove it because from what I've seen in the past it is an abomination. And today's revelation just enforces that. The people who do actually use it almost certainly don't realise the things it is doing & data it is collecting.That said, I'd suggest Dave gives Tapatalk a day or two to respond, and forum users similar time to vote on this poll.

author: Totalsolutions
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 09:39:07 am
content: I use Tapatalk and like it as it does a job. Used for years and don’t know what to go back to now. Can you advise. If it aint broke, etc. I read several forums with it and have no issues, but for the few ads. For me it brings everything, all in one place. No I don’t use all the features just the reader view. Also I don’t know what the the OP (Dave, our leader) is saying. Paul (67)Don’t burn me.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 09:51:02 am
content: I used to use Tapatalk. It just got worse and worse so I no longer use it. I'm pretty sure I paid for a version once, but something changed and I started getting intrusive ads again. Now I won't touch it. I'd say remove support.

author: Illusionist
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 10:05:24 am
content: I can't stand Tapatalk. I used to use it; not any more except......Unfortunately one of the support forums I need access to is only available through Tapatalk so I still get to experience the invasiveness of it.Kill it.

author: AngusBeef
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 10:08:29 am
content: I use tapatalk too - and a rooted tablet that allows me to block ads with a modified hosts fileSent from my SM-T820 using Tapatalk

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 10:10:08 am
content: I am not using it for EEVBlog but I use it on a Mac forum I administer. It's a royal piece of shit and I've suffered all kinds of paranormal phenomena.From the privacy point of view I'm not comfortable with the role of Tapatalk as a sort of aggregator.I keep it on the forum because of user demand but one of these days I'll kill it.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 10:12:51 am
content: The mobile forum version is unfortunately not without its issues. I can not log in to the forum on the mobile site due to some strange "session timeout" error, and if I visit the full site to log in I cannot find a link back. Also, there's always the "Error while thanking Thanking" thing. It looks a bit unpolished. Lastly - no notifications on the mobile version. The mobile version will do if nothing else is available, but it's far from being conveniently usable.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 10:47:14 am
content: Quote from: thinkfat on September 17, 2019, 10:12:51 amThe mobile link is at the bottom of the forum's page, using dark color with dark background.Just click & drag highlighting around that area will reveal that little tiny Mobile link, see attached picture.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 11:20:36 am
content: Working link:Please Abandon Tapatalk

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 11:23:53 am
content: In terms of client stats, can't Geoff pull that kind of information from the server logs? Is data like that being logged server-side?

author: awde
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 11:29:14 am
content: Remove it. After that you might consider changing to the XenForo platform. That seems to be much more mobile friendly and responsive on all kinds of display sizes.EDIT: Here are the EEVblog and a XenForo based Finnish tech forum (techbbs) default views on my phone. The EEVblog forum is basically the same view as on the desktop while the techbbs uses responsive design and sceles nicely when viewed on the mobile. Every UI-element is big enought to be clicked on the techbbs. I don't know much about the different forum platforms, but the SMF used here does not look as nice on the mobile. I know about the separate mobile theme, but I think it is ugly, dated and too basic for todays phones.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 11:34:07 am
content: Quote from: Totalsolutions on September 17, 2019, 09:39:07 amThis forum is mobile aware and automatically presents a mobile friendly interface.Maybe not as good as Tapatalk, but certainly you don't have the struggle with the desktop version on your mobile or tablet.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 11:37:09 am
content: Quote from: awde on September 17, 2019, 11:29:14 amI really like XenForo, and if I was to change forum software entirely it would almost certainly be that one.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 11:37:15 am
content: I tried to use it on my phone. I hated every second. Then took me some time to get rid off the agressive interference of it even when not using it. Happy enough with the mobile version of the forum.Kill it.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 12:00:56 pm
content: Tried it, didn't like it, voted don't really care if it doesn't affect the operation of rest of the forum.I get a 404 Not Found error in the OP link by the way.Happy enough with the occasional use of the mobile version of the site. I do get an error message something like "There was an error thanking..." when following a link from an email notification using my phone though it doesn't really get in the way of anything as it's at the end of the page.

author: xmetal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 12:16:58 pm
content: I don't like or use it or allow it on my own forum (phpBB3) or any other I've administered on. The click jacking is unacceptable behaviour and the aggressive marketing is annoying. I also find the little message on posts irritating. The forum works fine on both a desktop and with the mobile version so in my opinion there is no need for it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 12:20:27 pm
content: Quote from: awde on September 17, 2019, 11:29:14 amThe forum is not auto-detecting your phone.The mobile version of this forum looks like this:

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 12:25:24 pm
content: Used mobile version often, when in bad signal area and I find it decent & reasonable.As mentioned, there is a minor error "There was an error thanking..." that pop up frequently, no big deal though.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 12:27:50 pm
content: I bloody hate it, I find it irritating that it constantly asks me to install it despite me repeatedly declining.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 12:29:50 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on September 17, 2019, 12:25:24 pmQuite a few of the plugin say it's not compatible with the SMF For Mobile plugin. Not much I can do about that I'm afraid.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 12:34:58 pm
content: I don't use it, so on one level I kind of feel like it's none of my business whether it stays or goes. But then the clickjacking is clearly unacceptable and I am reminded of how much I hate getting spammed with the TapaTalk popups whenever I visit from a mobile device without EEVblog cookies. I assume that's what it is anyway, at one point it pestered meevery timeI was on a mobile device but that at least seems to have improved. In the end I voted "Yes, remove it. I don't use Tapatalk".I did install the app once, and I found the UI horrible, much worse than the mobile version of EEVblog, and the whole thing felt really spammy. It was never clear to me whyanyonewould use it.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 12:45:52 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2019, 11:34:07 amBoth the Tapatalk interface, and the automatically selected mobile hostile one seem to have been developed in the era of small phones with low resolution screens. With modern phones, and even more so with larger mobile devices, the full desktop interface is just as user friendly on a desktop or a mobile device.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 01:06:38 pm
content: I don't use it, but an open source alternative would be nice.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 01:09:50 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 17, 2019, 12:45:52 pmMaybe wait until you're into your late 40s with eyes getting worse. Neither are large phones practical in any way if you don't want to go back to 70s era "man purses", nor will increasing the screen resolution help making an interface designed for mouse pushing workable with a touch screen.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 01:17:41 pm
content: I am siding with coppice, I in fact always use the desktop version, and i am just on iPhone5 small screen and i am over 50 btw.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 01:31:01 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on September 17, 2019, 01:09:50 pmI'm 64. I've needed reading glasses since my mid 40s. Your point is?

author: AngusBeef
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 02:31:56 pm
content: I change my vote to kill it. I use tapatalk but I will adjust. It's for the greater good.Sent from my SM-T820 using Tapatalk

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 02:43:06 pm
content: What is TapaTalk? I've never heard of it before and voted I don't care.

author: AngusBeef
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 02:58:10 pm
content: Quote from: Tom45 on September 17, 2019, 02:43:06 pmThe advantage is it's an aggregator. I can access each of the forums for each of my hobbies all in one place, so it's convenient. If you use just one or two forums, it's not really an advantage to use it. If you access six forums, then (I think) it is. I use a similar software on my PC for managing multiple email accounts and other web-based software, called Shift. But I pay a yearly subscription for Shift so they have less requirement to collect and sell personal information in order to keep the lights on. Tapatalk is "free" which means that the user data, advertisements, and now clickjacking is where they make their money.Sent from my SM-T820 using Tapatalk

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 03:03:56 pm
content: Quote from: AngusBeef on September 17, 2019, 02:58:10 pmiirc Tapatalk used to be a paid for service - and even then, they did just what your post does: Advertise their software (and your phone/tablet, for which they might well get a kickback!) using their own customers by default.However good it is I consider their behaviour poor. And the fact that I can barely visit a forum on a mobile device without them trying to shove Tapatalk down my throat once a week for each individual forum doesn't help.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 03:16:32 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 17, 2019, 01:31:01 pmScreen DPI doesn't help if angular resolution of your eyes sucks. Large devices are impractical to carry around which is the reasons why phablets failed and manufacturers are looking into folding displays now. Desktop UI is no good with small touch-oriented devices aka phones, which is what everybody has in their pockets nowadays.Point: UI targeted for small screens exist because they have actual benefits. Even as you and I use reading glasses to get by, they don't solve the underlying problem of a vastly different interaction paradigm.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 04:13:15 pm
content: I've never used it. I very rarely post using a phone. I find using a touch screen hard work, so use nearly always use a desktop to post.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 04:29:16 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2019, 04:34:34 amJust to be clear, is Tapatalk clickjacking on display only within its app, or is it clickjacking when a Tapatalk user creates a post? Not that I consider either one acceptable, but the latter would be far worse still.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 04:57:44 pm
content: Quote from: mc172 on September 17, 2019, 12:27:50 pmThat's the problem I have with most sites that have their own app. They nag you EVERY SINGLE TIME to install the app! The more they nag me, the less I want to have anything to do with them!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 05:01:49 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on September 17, 2019, 03:16:32 pmI wish phablets would fail, but phones seem to be as gigantic as ever. I don't know what I'm going to do if/when my iPhone SE needs replacing. I'm not aware of anything comparable on the market, all of the new iPhones are huge and the Android world looks similar from what I've seen.

author: AngusBeef
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 05:20:05 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 17, 2019, 05:01:49 pmhttps://www.tomsguide.com/us/pictures-story/742-best-small-phones.htmlAlternatively you could pick up a Motorola RAZR flip phone and a Nokia brick phone for long talk time and small size

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 05:47:42 pm
content: Quote from: AngusBeef on September 17, 2019, 05:20:05 pmI almost never talk on my phone, I use it for texting, GPS navigation, email, camera and a handful of apps so a flip phone if they even still work is out of the question. Almost all of those "small" phones listed in the article are gigantic except for the iPhone SE that I already have and it has been discontinued for some time. I could probably tolerate a 5" phone if it was the only thing available but I'd much prefer 4". I have good vision and like a high resolution screen but I don't need or want it to be large.

author: blackbird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 06:37:48 pm
content: I use Tapatalk all the time when accessing this forum on my phone. The mobile forum website does not have the nice features Tapatalk provides, e.g. Sort threads by newest reply, give notification on new pm.Will this forum be inaccessible via Tapatalk when the plugin is disabled?

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 09:23:51 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2019, 11:37:09 amCan you cite the most compelling reason to switch from SFM to XenForo? I'm curious.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 09:41:44 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 17, 2019, 04:29:16 pmThe link you quoted has the details, its the former.

author: Iwanushka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 12:28:53 am
content: Please remove support for that thing

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 12:56:24 am
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on September 17, 2019, 09:23:51 pmThe ability to CTRL-V rich text and images directly from web pages etc into a post is a killer feature.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 01:07:43 am
content: While we are at it, coudl you replce the horrible IRC channel with a slack chat?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 01:17:57 am
content: It's pretty overwhelming that people want it gone, so it's now gone.Sorry to those who used it, you'll have to use the mobile site version instead.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 01:18:38 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on September 18, 2019, 01:07:43 amIRC has a strong, active community. The last thing we need is yet another proprietary cloud-based interface which forces you to sign up for an account and only has a desktop application for Windows. For those who don't collaborate on IRC, there is always the forum. Sometimes simpler is better. ;-)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 01:20:02 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on September 18, 2019, 01:07:43 amSome people like the IRC channel, why does it have to be "replaced"?What is slack chat? You mean this team collab tool?https://slack.com

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 01:31:34 am
content: One thing that I hate about the mobile web view is that it doesn't display images inline. Thats pretty much why I use tapatalk.At least now that you have killed tapatalk, can you at least make some tweaks to the mobile view.My number one requests would be a dark mode and inline images.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 01:33:18 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on September 18, 2019, 01:31:34 amCan you still tap or whatever to see images though?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 01:35:53 am
content: If there is a better SMF mobile plugin than SMF For Mobile then I'm happy to install it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 01:36:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 18, 2019, 01:35:53 amWoah, hang on...https://smfmobileapp.com/

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 03:33:05 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 18, 2019, 01:36:20 amI have a Windows phone.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 05:19:49 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 18, 2019, 01:33:18 amYou can, but on my phone, that opens them in a new browser tab. Which means about 50 clicks to see a few pics. constantly going back and forth, trying to remember which ones you have clicked on already is a pita.

author: garethw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 06:06:52 am
content: I currently use Tapatalk and find it “ok” to use. Now that it turns out they are up to no good I’m happy to get rid of it.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 06:20:37 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 18, 2019, 01:20:02 amIn deed. maybe as well as.. Yes, slack is what i'm talking about.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 06:55:10 am
content: I don't like it.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 06:57:34 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on September 18, 2019, 03:33:05 ammy deepest condolences.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 07:18:37 am
content: Quote from: zucca on September 18, 2019, 06:57:34 amI love it. I'm not a slave to Apps.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 07:26:17 am
content: Tapatalk took on a couple of million venture capital money. Thus you have all the messing as they burn through it and try to generate a return for the VC.It is now bloated with totally useless extra crap like Kin Rewards and have just shafted users with historic lifetime subscriptions.It's main advantage is how supports the following of threads with easy to use Subscribe/Unsubscribe, Participated, New Posts and New Threads options.Always positioning you on the next unread message and no need for Next/Previous page buttons. Nothing which could not be reproduced in a modern browser.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 07:27:46 am
content: Quote from: Towger on September 18, 2019, 07:26:17 amThat explains a lot.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 07:35:07 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on September 18, 2019, 06:20:37 amI don't get it. It doesn't seem to be a chat system as such, it's a "collaboration hub".But meh, knock yourself out:https://eevblog-forum.slack.com(eevblog.slack.com was already taken)https://join.slack.com/t/eevblog-forum/shared_invite/enQtNzUxMzY5NzU4OTE0LWM2ZDYzMTljNDczNGRkOWNkYzc4YjdiZmEzN2U1NGU3ZTljNjBiMDJhMjcxZmE2OWQ2MTI1NWZmZjYwYzhmNTQI assume that's the right address, I have no idea.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 08:10:52 am
content: Is there a way to increase font size on the mobile forum view? On a 5" phone screen it's practically unreadable (unless I break out the reading glasses).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 08:38:50 am
content: Quote from: thinkfat on September 18, 2019, 08:10:52 amThen what happens to people with larger screens and/or want more information on their screen?Anyway, Setting -> Accessibility lets you change it.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 09:08:54 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on September 17, 2019, 07:19:18 amI don't even use the mobile view, as I find it horrible. I use the "PC sized" version even on my phone, works no issues whatsoever.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 10:25:54 am
content: I never used Tapatalk. Just made use of the ‘mobile’ forum format on my phone and the standard ‘Desktop’ format on all my other computers including my iPAD. I would tend to avoid any viewer app for this forum that contained additional adverts.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 11:09:15 am
content: Yeh, I've previously just used a browser on my phone. Works fine. I don't "subscribe" to many forums, so it's not really an issue for me.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 11:23:49 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on September 18, 2019, 11:09:15 amSame.