Electric cars priviledges in UK (London) and Channel Tunnel crossing speeds - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 06:37:48 pm
content: Hello,When our HPEV is upgraded to newer power modules we plan a trip around Europe including UK passingLe tunnel sous la Manche. HPEV should have range above 100km so it shouldn't be any problem from technical point of view while Channel Tunnel is about 50.5-kilometre only, but are thereany minimum speed requirements,while according to Wiki pageQuote?Second one question is while this will be registered in EU electric vehicle are there in Londonany priviledges for such vehicles like free parkings, no entry fee to this city if any for classic cars, etc?EU citizens have to take special kinds documents in his origin country or visit some office in UK to obtain something like passport for electric car valid in UK to be able reuse places reserved for electric cars if any, reuse charge stations?It is interesting if UK issued MasterCard is the only thing needed to ride and charge electric vehicle in London for example?Thx for any "e-tips" in UK in advance

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 06:56:52 pm
content: Can you drive through the Chunnel?I always thought it was train only - you drove your car onto the train and then the train goes through the tunnel...Electric cars are exempt from the congestion charge in London currently. I don't think they get free parking (in London that would be very nice!)

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 06:58:00 pm
content: You don't drive through the tunnel - you are loaded on to a train and carried through. Takes 35 minutes

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 07:00:04 pm
content: tom66 is right. Train only. You drive your car onto a train and relax in your car for 40 minutes. I've done it a few times and can recommend it. If you turn up early they'll usually let you travel early too.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 08:12:40 pm
content: Mastercard should work worldwide. If your car says electric vehicle on the back and has no tailpipe I doubt you'll get a ticket for parking at a charging station.While in the UK don't run into Jeremy Clarkson because he will do this to you when you drive around in an electric vehicle:

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 08:19:21 pm
content: I will be the one laughing when I smoke him in a Model S P85+ with all-wheel drive.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 08:44:52 pm
content: Another example of a society where everyone is equal, except that some are more equal than others,.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 08:57:30 pm
content: It's my money. (If I buy such a car, it will be from 4+ years of hard saving, macaroni and cheese for dinner most nights.) More likely I will buy a Model 3 if it fits my price bracket.I'll probably only ever own one petrol vehicle, which is the one I'll buy in the next year or so. Assuming I don't wreck that, after that car I will be fully electric. It would be nice to jump right into e.g. a Leaf or i-MiEV but the economics don't work out at the moment for me.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 09:37:18 pm
content: As above, no self-drive through the channel tunnel.But if you DO want to drive through a really long tunnel, head to Norway and drive the 24.5km long Laerdal Tunnel.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 09:49:31 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 02, 2014, 08:12:40 pmLet me know where he has his favourite parking place - I'll take his placeThan my onboard cams will register probably something like this when he will try to move my vehicle to police parkingYeah, I was sure it must be possible drive car while it is possible fly over Channelhttp://www.eurotunnel.com/uk/traveller-info/vehicles/cars/QuoteSo, they want charge $74 for 100km both ways-very expensive ride for electric wehicle, while it is equal to about 300kWh of electricity in some countries and full tank of HDI classic car capable make 1000kmEven at usage of 0.1kWh/km we losing 3000km of electric rideIt looks like there it is ban for LPG in channel tunnel?http://www.eurotunnel.com/uk/site-information/lpg/But what about Li-On flamable battery?Nothing about it, so what is not prohibited is allowed and Tesla drivers looks like might be able cross ChannelThere is also more atractive ship voyage option for Channel traveling -looks like much more interesting for holidays...However, looks like no worry about charging in Londongmaps: McDonald's UK LondonWe eat hamburgers and our car might be charged at McDonald or used cooking oil obtained for low price for our emergency diesel generatorQuote from: sleemanj on October 02, 2014, 09:37:18 pmBTW: How much one phase 1kWh costs in UK after peak hours to compare with electric charge stations offerings if any on the way from Channel to London?

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 10:03:11 pm
content: If you're visiting London, the price of electricity is the least of your worries.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 10:11:09 pm
content: Just to compare with classic car fuel consumption for stats.It looks like there is some calculator based on postcode:http://www.ukpower.co.uk/Update:https://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy/compare/electricity/VXR8S22N/34911-EON-Energy-Fixed-1-year-v9/detailsQuote£0.136/kWh including VAT... 5% ONLY Is it TAX paradise and free energy in UK?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 10:17:00 pm
content: I think congestion charge is free for EVs but you probably need to register, which may or may not be practical for a foreign vehicle - check tfl.gov.uk.However for tourism you don;t really need to (and probably won't want to) drive in central London.A while ago some London boroughs offered free parking for EVs, and a few charging points in their off-street carparks, but that was a while ago & not sure if it still happens. If it does, again if foreign registered the system will probably not know it's an EV. Check local council websites for areas you plan to visit.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 05:30:25 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on October 02, 2014, 09:37:18 pmThe other way around: If you want to put your car on a train and have some scenery go to Sylt (an island in the North of Germany):It is quite weird to sit in your car on a train.But Mike it right. Driving in any big city in Europe is challenging. We usually park our car at a hotel and use the subway or a taxi to get where we want to go.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 09:42:24 am
content: IMHO, there's absolutely no point in EV charging below 10kW - it just takes too much time. A 22kW charger at minimum, optionally with Chademo or similar fast DC charge at 50kW.The Ikea near me has the right idea. 2 x Chademo and 2 x Fast AC (43kW) available. Shame they use the "Frankenplug" rather than something more sensible like J1772.There's going to be a Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD war soon over EV charging... who will win?

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 10:04:32 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 03, 2014, 09:42:24 amBetamax?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 10:49:29 am
content: QuoteNone. The winning solution is unlikely in-vehicle charging.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 11:32:09 am
content: I prefer in vehicle charging because it reduces the cost of the charge stations. It's easier to convince an employer to install a £400 charging station (consisting of a bunch of contactors and electrical wiring) than it is to install a £10k Chademo type station.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 06:28:30 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 03, 2014, 08:55:14 amAccording tohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_countryin UK is:QuoteAt 230VAC and 10A we have 2.3kW, so not so badQuote from: tom66 on October 03, 2014, 09:42:24 amThere are different EV concepts and some with more tricky battery solutions and vehicle itself than you used to see so farI do not like typical solutions, but like to have unique things

author: Precipice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 09:23:46 pm
content: Bribing EV users to drive long distances into city centres isn't high on my wishlist. EV subsidies make at least a little sense, to kickstart the industry, but 'free parking with token power' for the rich? Nah.Sorry, but I just can't get excited about free public charging. You drive electric, you sort your own charging.Decent, or at least sufficient, bike parking, though...

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 09:40:01 pm
content: Quote from: Precipice on October 03, 2014, 09:23:46 pmI'm with you there. Despite the congestion charge and very good public transport, London is a challenge to drive round. The last thing it needs is to encourage any more cars in. Better motorbike parking would also be a big help.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 10:49:13 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 03, 2014, 09:11:18 pmRemember that EV users also drive other things than Te$laI have no problem with that-any problem to use up to 3 such 13A standard plugs in my case, while total current available at charge stations is probably multipied by amount of those plugs, while a few EV users may want charge at the same time?Problem is those available commercial EV cars has many limitations and those huge power charging requirements makes them completly useless in may parts of the world, where another one smaller using standard wall plugs available can be very sucessfull.Quote from: Precipice on October 03, 2014, 09:23:46 pmFree energy is everywhere now, but not so easy connect and extract itIt could be very frustrating if one finds EV charging station and... do can not use it while his connectors are not supportedMy concern for the moment is some kind of uniwersal plug to be able use rather those classic standard plugs in as many countries as possible.Beatifull places are usually far away from city centers, so it does not matter on holidays if EV will be charged even 10 hours, while one can enjoy playing tennis, dance salsa or swim in blue seaNo time to loose for looking for car charging stations at such remote destinations.Classic wall plug will be what we are will be looking for most of the time.There are some guidelines of plugs used around the world:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_countryDo you know good universal mains plugs for travelers around the Europe capable of 10A-15A for a few hours without overheating?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 11:50:11 am
content: 2.3kW charging is nearly pointless.Never mind the fact that at least on a Tesla, it's only 60% efficient because the AC compressor & pump has to run to circulate coolant through the battery while charging, and this uses about 1kW on its own.On a Leaf, which has an air cooled battery, at least it's a bit more efficient - but it'd take 11 hours to recharge! Top Gear made fun of this when they did their Leaf test drive, and it's true, it's ridiculous! But they could have pulled into a nearby Nissan dealership and used the Chademo for FREE and charge at 50kW, meaning they'd only have to wait at most 30 minutes to charge the battery to near full.At minimum 10kW charging - no less. A Model S takes 8.5 hours, but 10kW is at least enough to give 30 miles range in an hour on Tesla. Which practically means you can go shopping for 90 minutes and have enough to go home in almost every case. 22kW or 50kW is even better. 50kW would fully charge the battery in 90 minutes.Tesla are supposed to be announcing something on the 9th... well two things... one is all-wheel drive, but the other is speculated to be the Model 3, the more affordable BMW 3-series competitor, starting at around £25k.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 01:00:03 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 04, 2014, 11:50:11 amEven when the charge rate is too low to produce significant heat? Seems a bit wasteful.Overnight charging from a standard outlet seems an entirely reasonable thing to want to do.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 02:26:55 pm
content: You can get a free charge box subsidised by British Gas allowing you to do 32A charging, about 7kW, which is sufficient for most overnight charging. Even unsubsidised it's something like £300.You can't beat the laws of physics. Even if you got the full 2.3kW without losses (100% efficiency) it would take 37 hours to fully charge an 85kWh pack. (The plug is limited to 10A because of some overheating risk - apparently they're not 13A continuous? I'm not sure if this is just some additional caution or actual regulation.)If you want to drive 100 miles in a day, you need about 27~30kWh, which is over 10 hours charging at that slow rate...The coolant is always circulated through the pack whenever charging/discharging to balance cell temperatures, not necessarily to keep it cool. One of Tesla's patents relates to improving battery longevity by keeping cells as closely matched as possible, so they all degrade at the same rate, rather than one or two dragging down the whole pack capacity (as the capacity of the whole pack is defined by the smallest capacity in Ah of the 96 series modules.)

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 03:44:47 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on October 02, 2014, 06:37:48 pmAn EEV users is looking for government freebies and preferences. How typical ;-)

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 05:18:51 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 04, 2014, 02:26:55 pmApparently no longer. It was actually the government providing the subsidy and the powers that be have evidently decided that they no longer need to give out so much free money.Installation of a 16 A charging point is now £115, which is still not bad considering the cost of an electric car itself.http://www.britishgas.co.uk/products-and-services/energy-saving/electric-vehicles.html

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 07:10:15 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 04, 2014, 02:26:55 pmFortunatelly I know physics very wellIf you want to estimate power needed to overcome aerodynamicwiki: Drag (physics)it is formula for this:whereQuoteOne can save a lot of fuel even using classic car while:QuoteQuote from: tom66 on October 04, 2014, 02:26:55 pmPower needed will depend on traveling speed, cross section area and drag coeficient as shown above, while we can assume nice flat road.However at winter conditions, significant amount of energy might be needed to overcome snow and other extreme conditions on streets, so this marketing range given by comercial electric cars makers is bullshitHow do you think how much power is needed to drive this... velomobile at close to 50km/haveragespeed?QuoteProbably not more than 0.25kW needed to drive velomobile in video above, while only human sport athletes only can do more for an hourwiki: Human powerQuoteForget about expensive Te$la, when pnly one person drives a car, but I like idea of keeping its battery in optimal operating temperature ranges and it is worthcopy pasteto own EV designs for sure

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 10:15:26 pm
content: My father (now retired) used to go to work in his electrified (to aid pulling away) 'banana' bicycle. It worked very well although he didn't reach these kind of speeds. The only problem is that I buy a decent car for the price of the electric 'banana' bike.If you have the space for a specific vehicle to make your daily commute you can optimise a lot but due to ownership taxes and limited parking space most people have to buy one vehicle which fits their worst case scenario.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 11:21:44 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 04, 2014, 02:26:55 pmThat makes sense but still doesn't need the AC compressor to run when charging at low rates (a few kW). A hundred Watts should be plenty for a coolant circulation pump.The common choice of the BS1363 for EV charging points is an odd one, I think it's useful for in-car chargers to have that as an option because it works everywhere in the UK but the natural choice here for car charging (public charging points or installation in a garage at home) would be the IEC60309 series:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60309. You can get 13A continuously through a good quality 13A plug but it will run warm (mostly due to the fuse), I can believe some manufacturer's might limit them to 10A but it's not really required.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 11:26:44 pm
content: If you have a dual socket on a 30 A circuit, you could presumably plug in two power cords side by side and draw 20-25 A?

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 11:40:20 pm
content: A dual 13A socket is required by the standard to be tested with 14A through one and 6A through the other. That's not to say they'd catch fire at 2x13A because the internal construction of most makes the two pretty independent but there's no requirement for it.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 11:48:18 pm
content: That's interesting. I can imagine situations (club meetings, group get-togethers) where people might plug in two kettles side by side to boil more water faster. How many average people would know they are not supposed to do that?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 11:54:14 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 04, 2014, 10:27:31 pmThus offends me even more

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 07:13:00 am
content: Quote from: IanB on October 04, 2014, 11:48:18 pmfound thisBS1363-2:1995 requires for double socket outlets that both socket outlets have loads applied via test plugs, 1 test plug having a load of 14 amps whilst the other has a load of 6 amps, making a total load of 20 amps on the cable supplying the double socket outlet. The double socket outlet is then subjected to this loading for a minimum continuous period of 4 hours or longer until stability is reached with a maximum duration of 8 hours (stability being taken as less than 1 degC rise within 1 h). The test is passed if neither the terminals / terminations, nor the accessible external surface, increase in temperature by more than 52 degC.So both sockets having an electric kettle at the same time would not be on long enough to cause any harm temperature wise. I have drawn 30 amps from a single 13 amp socket and plug for a few minuets and not even made them warm to the touch.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 07:43:39 am
content: Quote from: IanB on October 04, 2014, 11:48:18 pmKettles and other short - duration loads will be fine. Car chargers and space heaters maybe not. Any practical electrical system has to make assumptions about load diversity if it's not to end up massivly overbuilt. In the UK a typical house has a 20kW supply but when designing ddistribution about 2kW per house is assumed and over many houses it just works.At the end of the day most double sockets will take 30A without complaining and most people don't plug two electric space heaters in right next to each other anyway.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 08:11:39 am
content: Modern sockets may not do that though. I am returning a brand new ( made last year near the year end, but only installed 2 months ago) single socket outlet to the manufacturer on Monday, as it failed in service with a 2500VA load. Switch failed short, and this is not acceptable on a unit that is supposed to be rated for a 3kVA load for long term use. Here a plug should be able to deliver 15A long term with no issues, and not burn out ( like the current ones seem to be) at a 10A load.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 07:15:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 04, 2014, 10:15:26 pmCan you estimate weight of this velomobile?I was talking about average power consumptions and while we travel usually from point A to B than gravity is the best battery, however one have to sometimes provide a few times higher power than average while climbing at given slope from desired speed.With additional electric support at 0.350kW 100kg velomobile + 75 kg driver at flat road easy got 50km/h in one of calculators.Classic light velomobile weight is about 40 kg, so it is easier to accelerate.Quote from: mojo-chan on October 04, 2014, 10:17:41 pmI was asking about MasterCard in the charge stations context, while I'd expect pay for electricity there like for fuel on petrol stations.There should be an option and if someone is lucky and have some kind of national prepaid card to be able to charge later for free it is fine, but electricity prices are so small relative to earnings in UK, that we can call it free energy anyway

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 08:21:26 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on October 05, 2014, 07:15:20 pmProbably add another 5 to 10 kg for the battery and the motor. My father mostly used it to pull up at traffic lights in order to save his knees while driving in a city. Putting 40kg + your own body in motion is hard work. Uphill it is even worse. In the video you can see it takes the driver of the Velomobile a lot of time to increase his/her speed.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 11:23:17 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 05, 2014, 09:23:41 pmThey are not free, somebody else is paying for it.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 02:23:51 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 06, 2014, 08:02:57 amCom'on Mojo Chan, you know that other citizens that are forced to pay for that 'free' energy of yours. The EV business is corrupt.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_Londonhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2523718/Drivers-arent-switching-Publicly-funded-electric-car-charging-points-barely-used.html

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 03:12:11 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 06, 2014, 03:01:24 pmBy that logic we should not pay attention to what you say because you love everything green. Anyway, nice try deflecting an inconvenient truth.Quote from: mojo-chan on October 06, 2014, 03:01:24 pmYes, sure, they force me to pay for it but it's for my own benefit. This is also what they said about the Algae subsidies. Oppression always comes with a 'rationale'. Want EV? Do you on your own dime.

author: Precipice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 03:13:39 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 06, 2014, 03:01:24 pmNo, you silent bastards**, Get out of my city*I mean, sure, I appreciate that you're not spewing particulates, but I still can't see why you need incentivising to drive personal vehicles long distances into cities.* Note: I accept that all cities are different, but mine has reasonable public transport, good support for cyclists and pedestrians, and has terrible (deliberately, I believe) parking for cars. I'd much rather that funds were spent assisting pedestrians, cyclists and public transport than people whose cars are a little less crappy than others.(I also really, really like cars, and have several - but they're simply not a good way to get into the city centre).** that's the affectionate form of the word. No particular slight intended on your parentage.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 03:42:31 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 05, 2014, 11:23:17 pmVisitors and restaurant guests might pay, I will pay too If there is fresh air not ICE dust and fuel smell on streets..Problem with public transport those days especially in London, while tensions in Syria and Irak are so high, that one sunny day terrorists might want simply try to proove something, while they know that they easy will be in the centre of attention of whole world if... attack for example London undergraund trains etc.Nowadays, public transport in the heart of UK London city is not the safest place to be anymore.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 04:46:45 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 06, 2014, 03:55:43 pmWe know, anyone who disagrees with you is a lier.http://www.itv.com/news/london/topic/electric-cars/

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 05:04:07 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 06, 2014, 03:55:43 pmThanks for the reference to Fox. I think I appreciate now the magnitude of your error. ;-)You don't like the message so you demonize the messenger. A more productive approach would be to provide counter statistics about the usage of those government subsided 'free' energy-stations/parking-sports in London.Edit: this page has interesting videos on the topichttp://www.itv.com/news/london/story/2013-09-16/electric-charge-points-unused/

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 05:54:21 pm
content: Quote from: Precipice on October 06, 2014, 03:13:39 pmUnfortunately organising cities that way doesn't make it very appealing for visitors. Removing parking space and roads doesn't help the local economy. For some other business I have to be in city centres a every now and then with my car and it usually is a bitch to get where I need to be in pedestrian friendly cities.@eneuro: I wouldn't worry about terrorist attacks. Even with those the chance you die in public transport is way less than driving a car or walking in the street. Besides that the English have a lot of experience in dealing with terrorist attack threats due to the IRA.

author: Precipice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 06:41:23 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 06, 2014, 05:54:21 pmNah, we just bus them in... (tour coaches, and loads of park & ride sites provide out of town parking)Very, very few people would say that Cambridge is hampered by its lack of tourists.I'm sure we're not typical, though - but blanket 'free public electric car charging bays are good' statements need thinking about.(Confession: I have a 'free' electric car charging point installed on my driveway, despite not (yet?) having an electric car. It was a handy way to get an outside mains socket...)

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 07:03:03 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on October 06, 2014, 03:42:31 pmYou're far more likely to suffer in just about any big city in the world by walking into a bad part. I also suspect that unless you end up in a really crappy bit of London you'll be safer there than just about any other major city in the world. It's a very peaceful place for a city that big. Just don't try and drive round it unless you've an interest in driving in snarly assertive traffic and like sitting in traffic jams even in the middle of the night.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 08:42:35 pm
content: And yet most of the electricity is made from coal and gas which also comes from less stable regions/countries. IMHO the problem is not in the way we propel ourselves but where we get the fuel.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 09:12:23 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 06, 2014, 08:34:48 pmCheck the history of England. These are very peaceful times and the population has highest life expectancy ever.The main problem is that the government plays favorers with people and industries. Do it in your own dime and nobody will complain about it, same as nobody complains if audiophiles spend their money on nonsense.The mindset of the OP that somehow he is entitled for preference because he chose to drive EV is mind boggling.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 10:53:47 pm
content: Public charging below about 10kW does not make sense except for medium term parking, say 3-4 hours like for a long shopping mall trip. The chargers that have been installed in many places are only 2kW, absolutely pointless.A few years back Little Chef (a rather rubbish and expensive roadside diner in the UK) made a bit of press by having EV charging installed at a few restaurants. The catch was they were 7kW units. If you spent an hour in one of those restaurants (quite honestly I'm not sure why you would) you'd put on 30 miles of charge. That is completely stupid, no one wants that. Install a 22kW or 43kW mains system and provision in future for Chademo at 50kW DC. And you CAN charge for this service, but you should not do outrageous pricing (I'd say no more than the price of petrol, which is over 3x base electricity cost for a residential customer.)

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 06:53:48 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 06, 2014, 10:53:47 pmThis is more important for me to be as many even those 2kW chargers-it is not a problem.Simply you forgot that people may want charge not only commercial electric car$, but many can use electric bikes which are better to ride a city than big noisy ICE car$, so it makes sense.Are there any official list of those 1300 charging points in London and maybe other in UK or better something like global Google Earth or Maps preffered?It would be nice to have those charging points also download able with its GPS position, Google maps adress (link) and phone numbers to enter into vehicle custom navigation software.You don't need Te$la to make 440km @ 15:30h - not so bad close to 30km/h average without any fuel and electrocity and 10kW charging stations?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 06:58:13 am
content: Quote from: eneuro on October 07, 2014, 06:53:48 amI like ice cream. London should have free ice cream stations for my next visit.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 08:19:44 am
content: Libertarian arguments against EV charging infrastructure are missing the point completely. The true oppression is governments building and maintaining roads all over towns and cities using my money - especially when I don't even live in most of those places.Joking aside, it's a seriously long term investment in infrastructure. Is it being done correctly? Who knows, you would need to see the full plan and logic behind it but just because it's a government scheme doesn't automatically condemn it as wrong (even though they mess a lot of projects up and the choice of chargers here does look a poor one).I think a better way would be to make sure that carbon and air pollution taxes are set correctly proportionate to the damage done (a whole other debate I admit) and let the market sort it out from there.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 11:08:00 am
content: Taxes don't work. They just cause inflation. People still need to go to their work. Making fuel more expensive reduces people's income so they ask their bosses for more money. Over here they tried taxing people out of their cars and not building new roads. A few years ago the government came to their senses and invested in building more roads because the number of cars wasn't decreasing and the economic damage of the traffic jams started to have a serious impact on the economy. Now the government tries to use tax to make people buy efficient cars which seems to work to save fuel. In the NL the cars have the best mileage/least CO2 output compared to the rest of Europe.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 05:18:03 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on October 07, 2014, 06:53:48 amGreat. You can enjoy your electric bike or single person car. But I don't want to drive one of those. It's possible to own a nice car and have minimal impact on the environment.Your bike can still charge on the 2kW/7kW AC, but I'll need the 50kW or 120kW to make them practical for ME.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 06:09:55 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 07, 2014, 05:18:03 pmThis is not single person carThere are many electric cars which can be easy charged <<10kW .100kW charging could make blackout at some parts of the world esepcially at peak hours and while this charging process of Te$la is such inefficient it is waste of energy.

author: Precipice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 06:55:38 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 07, 2014, 05:18:03 pmAnd I'll need mine to fly, fold up into a briefcase to fit next to my desk, and double as an energy store at home.Sounds like neither of us get our wishes yet. Any particular reason why I should fund yours?And I _still_ can't see why I should be keen on people driving personal vehicles long distances into the centre of towns. It's more or less the antithesis of any current UK transport plan.Sure, it'd be super-convenient if the proles were priced off the road, and the glorious EV master race could drive in unhindered, go about their business while fast-charging, then drive back home. Doubly so if the proles could part fund the EV and the infrastructure.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 07:09:29 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on October 07, 2014, 06:09:55 pmI'm sure Tesla/whoever and the electrical co make sure the supply is sufficient. Most small industrial parks have 500kVA service or more, three phase. That can power 6 superchargers (120kW per two stalls, 60kW per car or 120kW per car if 3 or less in use)Quote from: Precipice on October 07, 2014, 06:55:38 pmI didn't say the government should fund charging points, but if they do, they should at least make them useful for users. Personally I think charging points would be best installed by businesses, where people shopping e.g. can charge their car while parking. (Ikea's been leading the way on this - the one near me had two 43kW/50kW AC/Chademo stations installed recently, and they've often got a pair of LEAFs charging there.)We make investments in infrastructure all the time, EV charging is just one of many of these. Not everyone needs street lights... why should everyone pay for them to be installed and run? Certain infrastructure improvements can and should be made.Thinking like you, we'd never have roads, hospitals, schools because not everyone wants them.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 07:25:19 pm
content: I disagree with the location of the charging points. Why are there gas stations along the highways? IMHO the answer is 'because that is where most of the fuel is used'. Unfortunately most gas stations are in rural areas where getting a big grid connection is prohibitively expensive. The price of per kWh would be way more than you'd pay at home.

author: Precipice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 07:28:19 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 07, 2014, 07:09:29 pmNope. It's city centre chargers I've got an issue with. Even the EV sparkle-dust sprinkled over them doesn't compensate for the fact that there's a private vehicle clogging up a public space.Chargers at Ikea - go for it. Chargers on motorways, excellent plan. Charger on my driveway - already got one. Incentives to drive (anything) into a city centre, especially from far enough that charging is necessary? Nope.(I might be keen on taxi ranks having chargers, mind. Not thought that one through).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 08:34:57 pm
content: Yeah, you might be right about that. It can work for small cars like the LEAF though. The main objections to cars in city centres are two-fold: traffic and pollution. EVs solve the second issue, and the limited quantity of them for now means that they don't significantly impact the first. Of course, this will change in the future.Thing is, there's no need for a nationwide infrastructure of gas-station style chargers. Most people can and will charge at home on a 7~10kW charger, more than sufficient to charge a large battery fully in 8 hours or average driving range in less than 2. An EV should be treated like it's a smartphone. Once you get home, plug it in, and charge it. It'll do the rest. There is no need to fill up. The fill up time is less than 30 seconds.Of course, it removes some of the flexibility of a petrol/diesel car, but I think it's worth it. Routines will have to change. Plug-in hybrids work for people who don't want to have to wait for a charge, but I'm not a big fan myself.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 09:22:06 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 07, 2014, 08:34:57 pmAnd that is exactly why EVs won't work in many countries. Like I wrote before: limited parking space and taxes on ownership of a car make that people buy one car which fits their worst case use (travelling far or even haul a caravan) so they buy a petrol or diesel car. For inner city trips I wouldn't mind having something like a Renault Twizzy but I have no space to park it or charge it.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 11:48:24 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 07, 2014, 08:34:57 pmIt's not about the charging, its about the parking preferences in busy places (doesn't really matter what current flow in). Same as they get financial kicks back from our government and carpool lane privileges. Has nothing to do with the technology. The EV business is corrupt.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 09:42:22 am
content: Nissan and BMW actually have a service available where you can arrange to loan a conventionally powered car for the occasional very long trip where charging is just not an option.Personally 20~30 minute fast DC charge every 200 or so miles is fine for me.Oil has a limited supply - we should aim to reduce our dependence on it. Especially with regard to the political problems in oil-rich countries, especially the Middle East.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 10:18:57 am
content: But electricity the way it is made now is not the answer. A lot of coal and gas comes from Russia but the politicians over there are far from reliable. For now it is better to buy oil from the Arabs than coal&gas from the Russians. Using less oil is a much better strategy for the current situation and also makes it possible to use bio-fuel (*) as an alternative.(*) Bio fuel made from agricultural waste doesn't impact food production. Actually there usually is a lot of agricultural activity in relatively densely populated areas (say a small country, province or state) so the supply lines can be short.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 02:15:01 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 08, 2014, 09:20:24 amThe EV business is corrupt because it's core business model is based on government preferences and freebies and its supporters and customers feel entitled for those freebies. It's an excellent example of crony capitalism. See this thread for example, 'I am driving an electric car, what freebies do I get in London' (nothing personal against the OP, it's just an example how EV users thing).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 03:38:31 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 08, 2014, 02:15:01 pmEh... I'm personally not big on subsidising Tesla cars, but it makes sense as a long term investment to get EVs on the road. LEAF and such I can see subsidies as being good - most people buying those are originally looking at econobox cars and an EV may better fit them and is nicer to the environment, if only on a city-scale for the time being. Encouraging more purchases at a lower price is better, because it will allow manufacturers like Nissan and Tesla to invest in improving batteries and car design further reducing the price.Let's not forget that UK LEAFs are made in Sunderland, as are the batteries. That's a huge boost to the UK economy, so you could say the grant money never really left the country. Obviously some materials are part of that but in terms of batteries, only 1/3rd the cost is materials; 2/3rd is assembly.Every litre of petrol is subsidised anyway (e.g. wars in the middle east, tax subsidies for oil refineries and North Sea oil, etc.) but you don't complain about this?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 04:36:29 pm
content: Perhaps but how much tax is your government raking in for every litre of petrol sold?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 04:47:57 pm
content: About 60% here, and a little more if you take the hidden taxes into account.You wonder why the fiscus in any country sees the motorist as a cash cow.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 04:51:01 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 08, 2014, 03:38:31 pmPoppycock.Total tax rate on petrol in the UK is 61%The government revenue from fuel duties was £25.894 billion in 2009and you think it's subsidized?

author: sunnyhighway
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 05:15:14 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on October 08, 2014, 04:51:01 pmYes it is subsidized, but not the way one would think.Just to keep them oil tankers coming to a refinery near you, the UK went to war in Iraq and Afganistan.- According to the Ministry of Defence, the total cost of UK military operations in Iraq from 2003 to 2009 was £8.4bn.- As of 2013, UK Afghanistan war alone cost have been calculated as £37bn.(source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War)

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 05:19:19 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 08, 2014, 03:38:31 pmNo, it didn't leave the country, the government just took it from citizen A to give to citizen B. This is the core of the corruption, and the funny thing is that the EV supporters feel entitled for these handouts instead of being grateful.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 06:37:22 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 08, 2014, 06:01:14 pmDo you really think you have the right to speak for everyone in Europe?

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 07:14:32 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 08, 2014, 09:42:22 amIt must shorten battery lifespan and make charging proces very inefficient, while a huge amount of heat have to be disipated and probably a lot of energy for cooling needed.BTW: Which is drag coefficient of Te$la and total car weight-less then 1000kg with battery without passengers?

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 08:43:38 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 08, 2014, 06:01:14 pmBut not as much as we like other people paying tax for the services we get.I think generally people paying tax would rather governments did less spending of their money, people who pay little tax may think differently and their vote counts just as much.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 08:55:47 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on October 08, 2014, 08:43:38 pmI don't understand this view. Well, I do: it's selfishness...Not everyone can afford healthcare, so do they not deserve it? Haven't we gotten over this? Not everyone uses roads, so why should everyone fund them? (Road tax only pays for a small part of the maintenance required...) I don't need the street lighting along the ring road away from my house, why do I pay for it?I am actually rather ambivalent on tax credits for EVs especially Tesla which is a very expensive car but I can see it as being one way to get an initial user-base for charging networks (as part of the chicken-and-egg problem...)

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 09:39:20 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 08, 2014, 08:55:47 pmWhich part is selfish? People not wanting to pay tax spent on others or people wanting others to pay tax to be spent on them?Seems a wash to meThe installation of 1300 EV charging points 998 of which didn't get used once in a 3 month period seems like an excellent example of why governments should do less spending.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 10:04:39 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on October 08, 2014, 09:39:20 pmThis will be readjusted in the next five-years-plan.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 10:10:03 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 07, 2014, 08:02:52 amI am glad to see a NHS fun. It's a first for me.http://bit.ly/1xqnGgtIt leaves you with plenty of time to charge your EV. ;-)

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 10:29:04 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 08, 2014, 10:10:03 pmFirst result:http://www.nhs.uk/choiceintheNHS/Rightsandpledges/Waitingtimes/Pages/Guide%20to%20waiting%20times.aspxRealistically, wait times for non-critical care <2 weeks. I can get a next day appointment here (Leeds) with several clinics within 1/2 hour walk of me, blood tests another day or two, results took 3~4 days... .and where I used to live (a town of <2000 people) I could book within 2~3 days. Critical care: immediate. If it is an emergency or there are serious problems, you get *immediate* treatment.For people who can't afford to wait, there's private health care.My experience of the NHS: Full dental until 16 (thereafter you pay about £20 per year for a checkup), incredible orthodontal care to fix my teeth including twice monthly appointments with a specialist over 18 months (stops me drooling like an idiot, which actually lets me have human conversations... without which it would be hard to do a job interview, for example), and treatment for a dislocated jaw due to a sports accident that would have otherwise cost thousands going private. As a young child, I spilt very hot water on my hand and face, requiring some emergency burn care. Thanks to the NHS, I am also not permanently disfigured. My parents could not have afforded any of this.A friend of mine is type I diabetic, and his medicine is only £7/week and blood sugar meter was subsidised (something like £30)... he is employed, but makes minimum wage... so would otherwise struggle to afford the expensive medicine and insulin etc.And how much do I pay for all of this? About £80 a month... it's all included in that one payment my employer takes out of my pay packet... and should I fall unemployed it will still be available for me. I am HAPPY to pay for this all. It is like an insurance plan but everyone who can afford it pays into it, the more you can pay the more you contribute. And unlike private healthcare: no limits on payout, concern over pre-existing conditions, minimum contributions or forgetting to pay the insurance bill and finding yourself uninsured and bankrupt. Frankly it's inhuman to me that someone can go bankrupt over something they have no control over. One freak accident, or bad luck and you're financially ruined?This cost whilst it may not be the lowest in Europe (the NHS has a lot of bureaucracy problems) is much lower than the USA, which spends just over 2x as much per person to provide on average -worse- care.There are obviously imperfections but I'm damn proud of the NHS and I'll defend it fiercely.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 11:38:40 am
content: Quote from: eneuro on October 08, 2014, 07:14:32 pmTesla offer 8 year warranty on their battery. Roadster packs have kept over 85% of original capacity after 100k miles and identical acceleration performance.The liquid cooling system engages during fast DC charge, about 5kW additional usage. Charging with DC is actually more efficient than from the ordinary mains. This is because the conversion losses are lower in an off board charger.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 01:07:48 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 09, 2014, 09:59:17 amIf the scheme is so great it wouldn't need to be mandatory would it.I would rather not pay into a government backed insurance scheme but I don't have the option. And we have your usual attitude that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and should be forced to make the same choice you do.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 02:10:09 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on October 09, 2014, 01:07:48 pmWhat? You'd voluntarily pay additional tax? That's very nice of you.Of course it needs to be mandatory, for anyone that can afford it. That's how it works. It's insurance--most people will never get out more than they pay in.Maybe, if you like, there should be an option for those with private health insurance to not contribute NI tax -- this being conditional upon never using NHS services, including ambulances and emergency care. You can enjoy BUPA if you like. Wait don't they use NHS facilities?

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 02:46:36 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 09, 2014, 02:10:09 pmNational insurance has nothing to do with NHS funding about 95% of it funds pensions. The NHS budget is about £110 billion or about £140 a month for every person in the UK. You think you are paying about £80 a month so someone else is paying the other £60 and all the £140s for the millions that pay nothing - no wonder you like it.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 03:02:56 pm
content: QuoteObviously, from the point of view of someone who receives subsidized services / products.Your position could be considerably strengthened if one day you insisted on subsidizing others.You know, taking on your fair share of that social pack that you so insisted on others taking on.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 03:49:46 pm
content: I am a tax payer in full time work and am quite happy to continue paying for the NHS! And many other government services that I do not currently benefit from (for example schools.)Everyone including myself must pay their fair share.It is not reasonable to ask someone without a job to pay hundreds a month for health insurance.And then if they do not have this insurance, they're out of luck if they get cancer, break a leg, or get into a car accident? All unavoidable daily situations.... How did we get so off topic?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 03:54:48 pm
content: QuoteThe fact that you are paying your taxes in full does not mean you have fully paid your fair share, or have been a net contributor to the society - contributing more to it than you are taking from it. ie. producers vs. takers.They are two unrelated concepts.QuoteThe desire to expose hypocrites?

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 03:56:01 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 09, 2014, 03:49:46 pmBecausea) American capitalist pigs*b) European commie pinkoe liberals*are wrong* delete as applicable

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 06:12:15 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 09, 2014, 02:25:41 pmOk, it makes sense I forgot about huge capacity of Te$la batteryMaybe someone will be able to buy smaller battery soon made in Te$la mega factory for his garage EV made by convertion from ICE?It's official: Nevada gets Tesla's Gigafactory September 5, 2014: 7:14 AM ETQuoteIf they were able make cheap EV battery modules available for eveyone, ICE lobby might have much more work to do to delay electric car introduction for everyone and more people could forget about those noisy dirty cars

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 06:35:31 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on October 09, 2014, 03:56:01 pmWe also have Americans commies, to many of them. Anyway back to the topic, anybody can enumerate the privileges and freebies UK EV owners get?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 06:41:50 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on October 09, 2014, 06:12:15 pmI hate to burst your bubble but in countries without hydropower they are struggling to make 10% of the electricity from renewable sources. Wind turbines and solar power need massive amounts of subsidies to be economically viable. Not to mention CO2 emission trading. When available I put E10 petrol (10% ethanol) in my car and by doing that I'm already on that 10% renewable fuel mark. Many newer (flexi fuel) cars can already run on close to 100% ethanol which starts to become available more and more. Add to that that in a few years (2020 IIRC) cars sold in the EU must be much more efficient than they currently are: The average CO2 emission must be 90gr CO2/km or less. EVs don't come near that number on the electricity mix available in the EU. Add more ethanol to the equation and the EV is on a dead end road.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 08:23:24 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 09, 2014, 06:35:31 pmhttps://www.tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/electric-vehiclesabout covers it.It doesn't mention some of the reduced fuel cost is due to a 5% rather than 156% tax rate.VED depends on vehicle rated CO2 emissions, probably averages £200/year.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 09:19:09 pm
content: We really do still need nuclear as a base load. Modern nuclear reactors are clean and efficient, unlike coal or CCGT. There's the problem with waste but it's not as big as it sounds with GenIII reactors which will work off the spent fuel from conventional (GenII) reactors.I'm all for wind and solar but I don't see either working particularly well in the UK for any more than 10%. Germany may be able to do 40% of average production but does this take into account peak usage? (Evenings don't have much sun) And I believe electricity is almost 30¢/kWh there which makes EVs financially unattractive.I'm really surprised about how many people don't like the idea of EVs on an electronics engineering forum. EVs take a complex mechanical device with many bits to go wrong (recently a friend has just had to completely rebuild an engine after his timing belt slipped) and replace it with a simple inverter and motor assembly. It's a completely different way of building a car. It's just the chemical batteries that get in the way at the moment, but this should change over time.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 09:44:49 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 09, 2014, 08:30:13 pmMore like 30% and they only spent $138 billion doing it. Now having shut down their nukes they are burning more coal and gas and emitting more CO2 than they were in 2009. Second highest electricity prices in europe as well.They certainly are a shining example to us all.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 09:54:14 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on October 09, 2014, 09:44:49 pmThat's why electricity in Germany costs twice as much as in France.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 10:06:28 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 09, 2014, 08:30:13 pmAs far as I can see that 40% for Germany is a peak during the summer only. The CO2 emission per kWh in Germany is a whopping 0.51kg per kWh (seehttp://www.renewablesinternational.net/carbon-emissions-from-german-power-sector-balanced-in-2013/150/537/77625/) which would put an EV in Germany at 115grams of CO2 per km. Here in the NL the emission is 0.465kg CO2 per kWh. The Dutch government expects to maybe reach 16% renewable energy by 2020 so Germany must do much worse based on the CO2 per kWh.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 10:22:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 09, 2014, 10:06:28 pmIt's about feeling good, placebo, like some audiophiles.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 10:56:31 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 09, 2014, 09:19:09 pmPretty simple - EEs without rose tinted glasses understand how shit batteries are.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 11:26:47 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 09, 2014, 09:19:09 pmIf you think an EV is just batteries and a motor + inverter you are sooo wrong. Just look at the battery and electronics cooling system of a Chevrolet Volt or Tesla Model-S. An ICE based car doesn't need the 'aircondition' to cool the engine so it can run. An EV however cannot work properly without the 'airconditioning' being in tiptop conditionhttps://gigaom.com/2010/09/29/electric-car-101-liquid-vs-air-battery-cooling-systems/. An EV just trades in one problem for the other.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 11:39:06 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 09, 2014, 09:27:26 pmHe was talking about the UK, peak demand here is around 18:00-1900http://www.nationalgrid.com/ngrealtime/realtime/realtime1daylarge.aspxThat should (always) show the last 24 hours if I've got the link right, y-axis in megawatts. Peak today was about 5 GW more than relatively flat the daytime demand. We don't use much aircon here even in the summer and the is a lot of electricity used for domestic heating and cooking. From memory we hit around 56 GW in the winter.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2014, 08:59:14 am
content: Agreed.Quote from: Rufus on October 09, 2014, 10:56:31 pmIf you are talking Nissan leaf and hybrid type stuff then yeah it's pretty shit. On the other hand Tesla specifications and their entire approach is ground breaking.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2014, 09:09:29 am
content: Batteries are expensive - but those used in, for example the Model S, cannot be described by in any way as "shit". They are engineered to make the most of what is available. Li-ion has hit the point of being convenient enough and power dense enough to drive a car. I really don't mind 30 minutes to supercharge my vehicle's battery, given the slight inconvenience is outweighed by charging at home every night.Quote from: nctnico on October 09, 2014, 11:26:47 pmNissan Leaf uses air cooling (fans) for the battery. Liquid cooling is best for longevity but is not necessary for a low performance vehicle such as the Leaf. (Inverter and motor are cooled I think.)Doesn't virtually every production petrol car use liquid cooling? And have you ever looked at how complex such systems are in a petrol engine, all running off the serpentine belt? If that belt snaps you loose everything. Power steering, cooling, interior heat/cool, air con, etc. Maybe the fan would still work off 12V...EV = Everything electrically driven. Aircon/PTC heater from HV pack, pumps from 12V system.A Model S can also drive without the cooling system functional but goes into limp mode, power significantly limited (to about 60kW which is enough to go 70mph, but accel is poor.)And yes, the cooling system is fairly complex... but it is a car now offering 691hp across front and rear axles... that's supercar territory.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2014, 09:15:01 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 09, 2014, 11:26:47 pmICE vehicles require a cooling system as well and it's regularly a weak point in the system. I would love to see verified reliability figures on Teslas and how they compare.With regard to the debate surrounding renewables, no one denies that in an unregulated system burning fossil fuels is a lot more cost effective than renewable energy. However cost comparisons are entirely pointless without taking into consideration the true cost of releasing carbon. It's a seperate question and I don't know the answer to it but the consensus seems to be that this cost is high hence carbon taxes that should (if the math is done right) reflect the true cost of carbon based power.The libertarians screaming about government interference can go back to the 1800's for their air and water if they want.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2014, 11:19:58 am
content: Quote from: bookaboo on October 10, 2014, 09:15:01 amIn an ICE car the cooling system is just a pump and a radiator at low pressure. Usually the coolant pump needs replacing around 200k km to 300k km. Nowadays the coolant can stay in the car as long as the car lasts.An EV has a cooling system which is basically an airconditioning (AC). If you ever had a car with AC then you know it needs service every few years to have it running at full capacity. Due to the high pressure there is always a little bit of leakage. And you may need to change expensive parts like the compressor (it gets much more use in an EV than in an ICE) and condensor (which is at the front of the car taking all the water and other parts flying into the grill). I recently had the condensor on my car replaced which cost me 400 euro at a universal AC repair shop.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2014, 11:30:52 am
content: The AC system in Model S is only used when supercharging/using chademo and using warp speed continuously. When driving along the motorway, it doesn't even use the cooling fans, just dissipates it in the radiators using moving air. It only needs to dissipate a few kW in most cases, doesn't even actively cool the pack until it hits 55C.You can get an A/C top up near where I live for about £30, it's not a significant maintenance item.Picture from Model S diagnostic utility, I believe car was cruising when this image was taken... chiller not in use:

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2014, 12:06:46 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 10, 2014, 11:19:58 amCar AC has this problem mainly because of leakage from the shaft seals, rotating seals being a consequence of belt driving from an ICE. Electrically driven AC can solve this problem by having the motor in a sealed can with the refrigerant. Universal on domestic refrigerators and common (here at least) for small/medium sized AC units. Even some ICE cars are now going to all-electric accessories with just the (larger) alternator driven from the belt. This simplifies the mechanics and for things like a power steering pump you can significantly reduce wasted power by not having a pump running continuously.

author: sunnyhighway
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2014, 01:30:27 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 09, 2014, 11:26:47 pmTry removing this system from your ICE and let me know what the results are.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2014, 03:54:15 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 10, 2014, 09:09:29 amNeeding to make 1/3rd of the car battery to get a vaguely acceptable range is shit. Needing 6000 individual cells is shit and ridiculous. Needing to be nursed with a vast amount of monitoring circuitry is shit. Needing to be actively cooled and warmed is shit. Being expensive and having a limited life is shit.A tin can to hold chemical fuel has none of these problems, dirt cheap, lasts forever and has about 60 times higher energy density.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2014, 04:01:19 pm
content: Quote from: sunnyhighway on October 10, 2014, 01:30:27 pmMaybe try to read first before making a fool out of yourself@tom66: An 'AC top up' is not the way to go because that usually doesn't include replacing the oil and testing how much coolant is still in the system. A top-up is a cheap fix to keep yourself cool in an old car (which you may not want to use much longer) but I wouldn't do that on an EV where the airconditioning/cooling system is a vital part of the car.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2014, 04:17:36 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on October 10, 2014, 03:54:15 pmThe Model S has loads of room and has storage space where an ICE would go.QuoteOk, why? What is the inherent shitiness of needing X amount of components?By that measure everything is complete shit as they are actually made of lots of atoms, which themselves are probably shit too as they are made of lots of stuff. Shit indeed.QuoteAs opposed to ICE and virtually everything else under the sun that prefers to be kept in a certain temperature range.QuoteTeslas own data and reports from users show the battery bank to perform incredibly well over the long term. A Norwegian blogger calculated his battery has 0.5% less capacity after 50,000 Kilometers. Clearly shit.QuoteI'll give you that one but Tesla have the optimal approach to attaining economies of scale.

author: sunnyhighway
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2014, 04:36:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 10, 2014, 04:01:19 pmAn EEV needs the batteries within a certain temperature range for reliable operation.An ICE needs the engine block within a certain temperature range for reliable operation.Both use a complex system to accomplish thatThe EEV uses air as a transfer medium and the ICE use a liquid as a transfer medium.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2014, 05:26:50 pm
content: Quote from: sunnyhighway on October 10, 2014, 04:36:33 pmMore nonsense. Please compare the picture of the cooling/heating system of the Tesla and compare to the picture you posted. An ICE has a simple bi-metal thermostat which regulates the coolant temperature. It is so simple it can't go wrong when a car is reasonably well maintained.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2014, 05:36:29 pm
content: Quote from: sunnyhighway on October 10, 2014, 04:36:33 pmIt depends:High Performance Liquid Cooled AC MotorsEven in custom garage conversions of classic cars to electric vehicles its motor is liquid cooled-air transfer is good to cool PC computers

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2014, 05:41:47 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 10, 2014, 05:26:50 pmThe primary reason Tesla's cooling system is so complicated is because they want to get the most range out of the battery. As one example, they recycle waste heat from the battery and motor into the heating system, like an ICE. Also, when you use the interior heat or AC, some of that heating/cooling can be redirected to the battery if it's not needed to maintain cabin temperature. Also, they reduce drag by having a set of active louvers at the front of the vehicle, these only open when full cooling is required.It's also an early vehicle. ICE manufacturers have had 100+ years to perfect and reduce the cost of the cooling system. It's still a very complicated system with many parts to fail, especially around a vibrating, hot and rotating engine. One of the reasons Tesla did not use a simple bimetal thermostat is they have software control over all parts of the cooling system, for example they can change the active/passive cooling targets with newer releases. For example they recently increased the 55°C active cooling target to 60°C. They probably changed this because in their long term tests they determined that the pack would still have good range over its lifespan if allowed to hit 60°C and it increases the range of the pack during high performance exertions.All of this takes up a small amount of the space where an engine would be...http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17176&d=1361810978

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2014, 06:38:27 pm
content: Quote from: sunnyhighway on October 10, 2014, 04:36:33 pmThe original Tesla Roadster had an air cooled motor and liquid cooled inverter. It had no problems putting out 200kW for some time.