When A brands sell B brand equipment. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 02:32:59 pm
content: For instance, when LeCroy sell an SDM3045X and re-label it as a T3DMM4-5 how do they justify charging twice the price?2nd question, where can we buy the LeCroy labels? I could make a fortune buying SDM3045X units, sticking the new label on them and selling them for $1100!If I did one a day I'd make over $180K per year. Not bad for 3 minutes work a day.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 10:53:09 pm
content: Here's how this works. Let's say the OEM is $1000 and the Rebadge is $2000. Every corporate purchaser gets a $500 discount for being an educational/big/small/highly regarded/deal of the month/insert reason customer. The purchasing manager gets to claim that his brilliance saved the company $500. That's where the first $500 goes: nowhere, because it never existed. The second $500 is willingly paid by the purchasing manager for defense against "you should have known better" if things go south, because it's not his money but it *will* be his responsibility if there's a SNAFU and a shark smells blood. The esteemed name of LeCroy is shark repellant. Is your name shark repellant? If so, the $500 is yours. If not, tough.Is this rational? Yes, for every individual actor involved. No, overall. It's a Nash Equilibrium, and this type of nonsense tends to happen anywhere in the economy where there is delegation of a complicated task. Having a "K" at the end makes this instance rather boring. There are countless examples with a "M" and many with a "B." The really good ones have a "T" at the end. So it goes. The price of capitalism. It's the worst, except for all of the alternatives.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 11:03:02 pm
content: Another, more rational argument, is that if the customer or distributor already carries a lot of Lecroy instruments, then the barrier to adding some Lecroy DMMs may be lower than adding Siglent DMMs that come through different channels, from a different sales rep, etc. It would probably also give large customers a single point for service and calibration. That is tangible value if you have say a hundred other Lecroy instruments.In the early nineties Tektronix added some rebadged low-cost instruments like power supplies, bench dmms, frequency counters etc to their line, to make themselves more attractive to distributors who prefered to sell a broad line from a single brand rather than scopes from Tektronix, DMMs from Fluke, counters from Racal-Dana, etc. I don't know if that is still relevant.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 11:06:38 pm
content: Lecory also selling silent scopes under their name and more expensive than the "original".But taking a closer look, they got nearly everything on board, what siglent offers as extra options for their own models.EDIT:https://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/t3dso2000-series-oscilloscopesRebadged SDS2000X plus, everything included except MSO Option.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 11:18:17 pm
content: Quote from: alm on November 08, 2022, 11:03:02 pmTektronix still sells rebadges of various equipment. Some high-end stuff as well like the FCA3000/FCA3100 frequency counters. These are also sold by Pendulum as CNT-90 / CNT-91 but could originate from Philips / Fluke as these where also sold under the Fluke brand.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 11:35:44 pm
content: I'd argue that the "single supplier" argument is structurally the same as the "sharks and blood" argument, just mapped into policy. In both cases, higher ups are paying a premium for legibility.

author: colorado.rob
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 11:45:01 pm
content: In addition to the other excellent comments (especially the $500 that does not exist), another important piece in my mind is that, in general, these brand A vendors are brand A because of their sales and service. I think Siglent is actually quite good in this regard, but the other brands have a reputation for sales support, their "no questions" warranty, and having global service centers. This level of support costs real money to provide and is baked into the cost of each piece of equipment they sell.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 06:31:41 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 08, 2022, 11:18:17 pmNo they originated from Pendulum.. That used to be part of Philips but was spun off. Fluke is a rebadge...

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 06:43:30 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on November 08, 2022, 11:06:38 pmYou mean like you can just enable with a simple key generator for free?I wonder if the same key generator would work to enable the MSO option on the LeCroy?

author: Hydron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 07:31:39 pm
content: To be fair to Lecroy, the stuff they are rebadging is generally some of the best of the "B brands"Still 2x the cost though!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 08:00:11 pm
content: Quote from: Hydron on November 09, 2022, 07:31:39 pmIf what Martin says is correct and they add most option free then their 2x is not so bad. SDS2104X Plus price can be easy doubled when all options are added which is why the current promotion along with a BW upgrade is such a good deal.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 08:19:09 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on November 09, 2022, 08:00:11 pmCurrently it's more like 3X or 3.5X the price.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2022, 01:09:00 am
content: Quote from: Hydron on November 09, 2022, 07:31:39 pmFirst of all, I wouldn´t call siglent (AND rigol) as B brands nowadays...These times are gone since they offer good stuff and not in every case cheap...Then concerning the partnership between Lecroy and Siglent:It was in the early 2010s a region lecroy sales engineer was on visit by us and we´ve talked about cheap scopes from lecroy.The talk comes to the "desastrous" WaveAce series at this time.He was really getting upset and shouted never ever we trust on any chinese company to make a deal with them!And now..Siglent make the Wavesurfer 3000Z and the Wavesurfer 4000HD scopes for them, lecroy take siglents SDS2000X+ and SDS1000X-E under their name..Or like a engineer colleague said once to me, with the partnership to lecroy, siglent are the "kings" under the chinese brands.Kings I wouldn´t say but you can recognize it when having a look to their touchscreen models 2000X+, 5000X, 2000x HD and 6000A.They´re more lecroy style with all the pros and cons...In my opinion a good way siglent are going.QuoteIt is, have a look at the spec sheets of the "lecroysiglent" ones...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2022, 05:56:24 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on November 10, 2022, 01:09:00 amDoesn't matter what you think,orhow good the devices they manufacture are.The big corporations aren't full of Rigols and Siglents and there's plenty of people out there who'll never get past the "made in China" sticker.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2022, 08:13:15 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 10, 2022, 05:56:24 amWrong.And Wrong.In your defense, you would be right even 10 years ago.But there had been changes in that in last 10 years. Their devices are good enough and are being bought in large numbers by both small and very large organizations. Corporate types love a good save, too. The drunken millionaire purchasing works only for USA large military contracts and such. And where "patriotic technology" is prefered, for all kinds of reasons..Problem is that human's habitual perceptions are very long term... People keep repeating statements that stopped being true long ago..It is evolutionary part our survival instinct.. A fruit that was once poisonous stays poisonous forever. And we tell others not to eat it and they listen. This is the mechanism of hearsay...But that part of human psyche should be ignored with stuff that can be objectively measured.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2022, 08:39:12 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on November 10, 2022, 01:09:00 amLike the zoom out quirk?jesus christ what people fixate on..

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2022, 08:43:54 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 10, 2022, 08:13:15 amThere was a nail knob that you hit perfectly with the hammer.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2022, 08:59:02 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on November 10, 2022, 08:39:12 amIt would also be good to evaluate and define the characteristics, performance and skills of oscilloscopeusers.Many times it seems to be most top problem.Of course, it may be that this forum distorts the real distribution between the skilled and the unskilled.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2022, 10:53:21 am
content: The A company may be able to sell the products and make good money if the customers are willing to pay more because they trust their brand. However, if you buy the B brand products and label them as A brand and sell them you should prepare to pay a big fine as well as going to jail.You could contract the B brand and have them made a number of products label them as your own brand and sell for more money but unless you have good reputation nobody is going to buy your brand.So how could they do it. It's the power of the brand that they earned thru the years of making good products.

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2022, 11:15:17 am
content: Quote from: jjoonathan on November 08, 2022, 11:35:44 pmI don't agree. Both happen, but one is 'pay more because liability'. The other is 'pay more per unit, but potentially save in terms of overhead of calibration/services/supplier relations/etc'. Especially if you start adding in cases where you are only allowed to buy from 'accepted suppliers/brands', the cost of adding Rigol, or Siglent, or whatever to that list could be waaaay more expensive than just buying 20 rebadged rigols from Lecroy for 10k more than it would cost from Rigol directly. Not to mention that I believe a lot of the big brands use these devices as 'freebies' to throw in with their big items.They like to do that with license options too. Just take a feature you would put on a scope by default, slap a 10k$ price tag on it, then give it for 'free' to every customer so their acquisition team can go to their bosses and say 'look boss, saved us another 10k last month!'

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2022, 12:03:28 pm
content: I have worked at a medical product company where every supplier of a product or service we used had to be qualified. This involved filling in a bunch of paperwork about the supplier, their compliance documents, and why the existing suppliers couldn't meet that need. We would have to list requirements that the product of the new supplier had to meet, and "check" every year that the product still met those requirements. Even for something basic like a note taking app, would document where they store their data, if they were meeting data security standards, etc. We weren't buying test equipment, but especially for a one-off it was much simpler to use something from an existing supplier than validating a new supplier.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2022, 12:05:53 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 10, 2022, 08:13:15 amOK, but if you ask a corporate person to name an 'A' brand, what will they reply?Even if they're using Rigols and Siglents they're still going to be aware of the "Tektronix" and "Keysight" brands.We're talking about thebrand, not the devices.Doesn't matter if Walmart can make good t-shirts, they'll never be a real "brand".

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2022, 12:49:59 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 10, 2022, 08:13:15 amYou are wrong here, IMHO.Within a decade the West could be in a war with the PRC. The 'cold' side of that war is already going on, as the Pelosi affair demonstrated, as well as the PRC's positions on Ukraine.The major western manufacturers, in an understandable strive for cheap labor, massively delocalized in China. Now, the US (and up to a lesser extent, Europe, see below) are starting to recognize that this went too far (as the face masks and ventilators' happenings shown recently).It's not about human perceptions, it's basic geopolitics and political economy.These aspects are quite 'objectively measurable', and have nothing to do with the human psyche.And it's not just hawkish US foreign policy. The much more permissive EU is starting to show increased awareness:https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/germany-block-chinese-takeover-semiconductor-firm-ers-electronic-handelsblatt-2022-11-09/https://europe.autonews.com/suppliers/italy-blocked-chinese-takeover-semiconductor-companyhttps://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/italys-draghi-vetoes-third-chinese-takeover-this-year-2021-11-23/

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2022, 03:50:20 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on November 10, 2022, 10:53:21 amAm I supposed to take it that you thought I was being serious?How silly must a thing be so that people know it's a joke?

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 12:47:54 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on November 10, 2022, 03:50:20 pmWhat I meant is that the A brand can simply relabel B brand products and make money because they have something not everybody has. Not just any company can do it. Rebranding products and sell for more is a very common thing but to do that you have to have your reputation so the customers will buy from you and not from the company that actually made the products.A lot of companies are making a lot of money not making a single products.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 01:33:07 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on November 11, 2022, 12:47:54 pmYep. That's an excellent example of the difference between 'A' and 'B'.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 02:02:57 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 10, 2022, 05:56:24 amIf you talk about big corporation it's the Chinese brands that turned them away not the Made In China sticker. Most of them don't even know where the products are made.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 04:55:13 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on November 11, 2022, 12:47:54 pmYes, but that is only logical. If you look at the chain between producer and consumer you'll see most of the profit is made at the last two sales layers. But the risks are also the biggest at the point of sale. As has been written before, Lecroy has gotten a lot of bad publicity for the WaveACE series. Up to the point where the next oscilloscope (IIRC Waverunner 3000) they rebranded from Siglent didn't run Siglent firmware but Lecroy's own firmware (but not that that is a major improvement).