Isolation transformer question (Step Down + Step Up = Isolation?) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: PhynixViking
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2012, 06:21:53 pm
content: SO! Ok... as I've been experimenting with more powerful power supplies, I've been thinking about getting a isolation transformer for Mains line. (I'm in USA we use 110v at 60hz)I was thinking what if I use two of the same transformers, one in "step down" and then one in "step up" connected together so the out put is equal to the input. Wouldn't that do the same thing as a isolation transformer? (As long as I don't exceed the maximum wattage that they are rated at. Probably if they are 30 watts I'd stay with in 25 just to be safe)

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2012, 06:45:15 pm
content: Yes.Not to sound rude (yeah, I know, it's always rude when someone says that), but I really wish you'd take more time to learn about this stuff before you go messing around with "more powerful power supplies". Not because I want to be one of those "don't ever touch anything dangerous ever" people - you'll never learn anything that way - or because I'm trying to insult your intelligence, but honestly this is a very basic question and I'm not too comfortable to turn you loose at mains voltages.

author: PhynixViking
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2012, 08:22:35 pm
content: LOL No, I don't view it as rude! ^__^ You're looking out for people. Its cool!My experiance with electronics is a bit... Hmm... odd? I have been doing repairs and such for 14 years? But mostly things like...Test component, its broken, replace, it works, WOOT! lol (except that time one blew up but that was totally not my fault!!!)I have also built some kinda basic power supplies and power related things... (mains switches and adapters... wiring...)and I've also done a TON of modification on things (such as changing this power supply to work for that item... or taking cheap audio amps and bridging them to make a more powerful one...)I've been working on making some "tools" (I've made a pretty kick ass bench power supply and a what I'm calling a bench diode bridge (rectifier) and working on a bench decade capacitor [if I'm calling that correctly] )I haven't done much experimentation and once I was using a 24 volt AC transformer aligned with other "unknown" transformers to try to test them and see what they do ( 24 / 120 = 5 so i can then figure out the voltage if using 120 instead of the 24 ) and that got me thinking to this idea... because I DO have a load-bunch of isolation transformers that I've scrapped from things but 99% of them have no markings on them... so I'm afraid to just use them and find out they are only 0.5 amps and not 2 amps, lol.I also use goggles, Lexan (r) Blast Shielding, and rubber (anti electric?) gloves... (idk what you'd call them... thick rubber gloves... there, lol)But thanks for the reply! ^___^ and thanks for looking out for people!

author: kxenos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2012, 08:37:07 pm
content: One issue you might want to consider is efficiency. Then, the cost probably is going to be equal or greater if you buy 2 transformers instead of 1 (for a given wattage) plus the case that you would have to buy (as it would not be reasonable to leave this setup without a case).

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2012, 11:28:52 pm
content: Quote from: PhynixViking on December 09, 2012, 06:21:53 pmIt's best to use transformers with a higher intermediate voltage when doing this.Like 110V:24V -> 24V:110V rather than 110V:5V -> 5V:110V.When the voltage is low the current is large the losses are too.

author: PhynixViking
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2012, 12:56:57 am
content: kxenos- Most of my little "ideas" revolve around the fact that I often am broke, LOL so... I mean if I could find one $20 (USD) range it would be kick ass but... most I'm seeing are $100 range and up. But when I get some extra cash I'd probably end up buying one. Another thing, I scrap things a LOT and end up with tons of stuff just laying around. I have probably about... idk... 1,000 transformers? well more then 500 for sure.Psi- AH! I think I have two 110v-TO-36v guys laying around!Thanks everyone for help! ^__^Also:anyone have opinions of adding protection to a Mains isolation transformer? Like... a fuse POST-transformers is obvious but... maybe a MOV and/or noise filters? Or do isolation transformers also fix noise too? (I remember seeing an IsoBar with a isolation trans in it...)

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2012, 05:03:48 am
content: I was talking to a local tube amp guru the other day about getting into building some of that stuff, and he drew me up a small amp to start with. The power supply was based around two back to back 12 volt transformers, so you can get your heater supply from in between them and the high voltage supply from the output. I thought that was pretty simple but awesomely clever as a way to do a small learning project without stuffing around trying to find a suitable transformer.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2012, 06:24:59 am
content: Logically isolation transformers don't fix noise issues (But they break ground loops) but they could, because they can cut off any frequency higher than their resonant frequency if it's a massive transformer like those classic power line conditioners that are in series with some huge caps that way with huge caps you can tune the cut off frequency, so it's like a low-passNOTE: transformers have little inductance it's using them in ferroresonant mode makes use of their nonlinear inductancehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferroresonance_in_electricity_networks

author: PhynixViking
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2012, 09:37:51 pm
content: T4P- Hmmm thats a fun thing (haven't learned yet) I'll have to read up on Ferroresonance... So you think I should add a noise filter circuit and maybe Mov's and some stuff to it?David Aurora- That's interesting... and I have the opposite problem... I have so many transformers I've been trying to find reasons not to just toss them in the recycling bin, LOL ( I wonder if people on ebay would buy working used/old transformers... hmmm )UPDATE: I found the transformers I was talking about... I have a Pair of110 to 16.5 at 25VA (says 0.5 Amps on the Mains In)then I have a pair of110 to 23 at no marking of amps/watts at all...LOL... SO! It looks like I might want to look around for some cheep higher volt transformers... ...I wonder how two microwave transformers linked together would do?(scary thought!)

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2012, 09:43:55 pm
content: Quote from: PhynixViking on December 11, 2012, 09:37:51 pmNutter.

author: PhynixViking
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2012, 09:53:30 pm
content: Nutter? lol wha?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2012, 09:55:45 pm
content: Quote from: PhynixViking on December 11, 2012, 09:53:30 pmhttp://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nutter

author: PhynixViking
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2012, 09:58:23 pm
content: OH! I am so NOT crazy...Come on, you can't say that not even for a moment, the thought of two microwave transformers (and how powerful they are) linked together wouldn't be kinda interesting.(if at all interesting in a crazy way ok fine what ever, lol)

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2012, 09:59:27 pm
content: Quote from: PhynixViking on December 11, 2012, 09:58:23 pmOh, it'd be interesting. It'd also probably end up releasinglotsof magic smoke.Don't worry, I'm a nutter too. *grabs some microwaves*

author: PhynixViking
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2012, 10:05:49 pm
content: I'm actually pondering making a video of my next big project... that will be a "insane super capacitor" its specs will be 400 volts max, at about 50,000uF maybe more... so... you know... *does math*a max of:Charge Q = 20 CoulombsEnergy E = 4000 Joules4kJ is pretty ...nutter, LOLAlso thinking of building a "smaller one" (10-25v range) that will be as many 470, 1000, 2200 caps as I have to spare laying around... (so few hundred) to see how much capacitance I can get. (If anything I'm just waiting for a nice project box to use for it.)PS: I didn't do math... I used this calculator link that's pretty neat to hang on to.http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/capacitor-charge-calculator.php

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2012, 10:27:26 pm
content: Quote from: PhynixViking on December 11, 2012, 10:05:49 pmSome of those online calculators are pretty cool, but I'm pretty sure I can work out Q=CV and U=CV2/2 faster than I can find the calculator...

author: hlavac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2012, 10:44:06 pm
content: If you can find two identical transformers where the primary and secondary windings are on separate spools (or you cut it out) you may be able to remove secondary and put primary from the other transformer in its place so you end up with a real 1:1 isolation transformer!Also a good indicator of unknown transformer's max power is its weight.

author: PhynixViking
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 12:04:23 am
content: c4757p- Yea, LOL some of them are really easy to do (especially cap values) just I have computers by me (4 of them) so its extra handy to click a link. lolhlavac- HMMM!!!! That's a cool idea! I actually think I have one that can work like that. Will have to do some testing on it. And weight huh? I have a transformer I've been... saving... to make love to!!! *moment* LOL no.. umm... its 600watts about 12.19 volts at about 50 Amps... its sexy... lol and weights 5 kilos [about 11 pounds] I've also seen ones that weighted over 100 pounds... ( at a tour of a factory that made them. )

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 09:14:03 am
content: Forget 100 pounds ...This bastard weighs 50 tons

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 09:26:09 am
content: Just to give you an idea on weight & size, here shot of my 1000 VA isolation transformer compared to AA sized Eneloop battery.

author: PhynixViking
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 10:00:29 pm
content: T4P- Oh... but how will I get it in my living room...Now that's kinda cool. The place I was at specialized in mostly large scale capacitors and not so much transformers. It was fun to see a entire 30 foot table of nothing but huge transformers and such but nothing like that... well OK they did have this giant generator (it was 20 feet by 5 by about 12 feet tall?) that was used to test capacitors. Since they do work for the government and such... I can't post any pictures (sad face) and I actually wasn't suppose to take pictures in the first place, LOL but... my grand father was (now retired) VP of the place so when he gave me a tour he said it was ok... till his boss yelled at us. No fun no fun!BravoV- Hm! The one I have is just about that big, but the core isn't as... wide? You can see more wire (well its covered) then you can see core. Its a dual coil (2 wires in 4 wires out) idk if that means much. lol (not very knowledgeable of transformers other then how they work in basic (1x10 with 100v means it out puts 10v) lol.).Is it wrong to want a bunch of giant transformers JUST to have them and not really even use them (well ok maybe just to have them AND use them for... ...w/e...)

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 01:01:28 am
content: Quote from: PhynixViking on December 12, 2012, 10:00:29 pmI have a draw full of large transformers, the weight has totally ruined the draw runners. And these are solid metal runners which slide on ball bearings.

author: cwalex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 10:52:44 am
content: Quote from: hlavac on December 11, 2012, 10:44:06 pmIs there any reason why you couldn't do that with a couple of 1500W MOTs? or is that what you were talking about? (I can be a bit slow sometimes)

author: PhynixViking
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 04:03:08 pm
content: Psi- LOL I only own 2 big ones. a 600watt (about 12v by about 50a) and a really cool one that is 110 in, and 12v, 9v, 5.5v, and i think 3v out at various amps Its 200 watt I believe. The really cool thing with that one is its actually completely marked in detail on the side case (the case is metal and the transformer is inside with some kind of resin or glue all over.) Besides that I have boxes and boxes of smaller ones (like under 50 watt ones...) and I never counted but I have between 500 and 1,000 total? Then I have salvaged transformers from various things... a bunch of mini isolation ones which... you know... what if I linked (parallel) a bunch of small isolation transformers together... would that work? I have like 30 of them? But don't know how many amps they are.cwalex- MOT? Microwave Oven Transformers? Psi above had said:Quote from: Psi on December 09, 2012, 11:28:52 pmand I haven't delt with microwave transformers but most say high voltage so I can assume they are 110 to idk... 1kv? so, might not be a good idea to use them as such. Still... might be fun anyway!!! LOLI've told a few people I know to look out for broken microwaves ever since I've seen youtube videos of people turning them into arch/spot wielders. Very fun stuff...

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 04:19:53 pm
content: Somebody is going to rant about safety soonAnyway, maybe just connect to a 555 inverter into your isolation transformer and check the voltage (But be careful)

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 04:30:40 pm
content: Microwave transformers are designed to be run near full load and with forced air cooling. You can use them back to back, but you will have to cool them both and you will find that the regulation is very poor because of the magnetic shunts in them. Removing the shunts will make them saturate though. you also have to connect the 2 high voltage connections and the 2 chassis together, as the secondary is connected to the frame internally to the transformer.

author: PhynixViking
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 07:01:34 pm
content: T4P- I haven't seen a 555 used in that way before... HM! Fun... so... what if I just use a 9volt battery for the "5-15v input"T1 would be my testing transformer?And... L1 is that a inductor?Do you think any PnP/NpN would work? (as long as they are kinda the "general purpose" ones and had a bit of power handling to them)R4 can be a set resistor (what 25k?) too right? Or do I want to keep a ped. on it?PS: I ordered like a ton of 555's because I wanted to do a bunch of projects with them. Have any links to some unique or interesting ones please do share! ^__^SeanB- I haven't gone too much into microwave ovens... hmm air cooling huh? Is it wrong of me (being a computer tech more often then electronics) to want to modify a microwave oven so that its a "silent" one (huge heat sinks mixed with shielded water cooling... shielded because I know microwaves are used by the magnetron to produce movement (radiated heat) in water molecules in food... and besides a bit funny it would kinda defeat the purpose if we had a microwave that was heating its own cooling method, LOL)

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 08:06:37 pm
content: Yeah, any TO220 pair transistor is good, you should probably be able to find them in the "amplifier teardown stash"

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 11:07:44 pm
content: I wouldn't recommend using dual MOTs to make a DIY isolation transformer.The whole idea of a isolation transformer is for safety and adding 2kV to the mix probably isn't the best idea.

author: cwalex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2012, 10:42:27 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 13, 2012, 04:30:40 pmCheers for the infoHow 'bout this?Take 2 MOTs, dismantle and remove the shunts, take the secondary out of trafo A and take the primary out of trafo B, put the primary from trafo B where the secondary from trafo A was. Assuming two identical MOTs but then IDK if the primary and secondary take up the same amount of room in the E frame thingThis all sounds way too simple to work properly LOL

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2012, 03:06:37 pm
content: Going to be hard to cool a magnetron, as it has high voltage on the one end near the heatsink. Forced air cooling is about the only way, unless you are willing to strip it, remove the fins and make up a water jacket that will be press fitted over the cavity body, then reinstall the magnets and reassemble it again. They are made in high power for water cooling, but these are not magnetrons you want to use to cook food, more like ones used to heat an entire cow to cook it, or high power RADAR transmitters and TWT amplifiers.As to the rewind you would have to wind the primary with close to double the number of turns to get the core inductance up high enough so that it does not saturate. then you will have to wind an identical secondary, and weld it back together keeping the same air gap as the original. Difficult but doable.

author: PhynixViking
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2012, 04:04:53 pm
content: T4P- Believe it or not... I have scrapped VERY FEW amps... About idk... 200 monitors? And a few hundred computer motherboards... and hm... 1,000 computer power supplies? LOL ...wait... WOAH! SON OF A F***!!! I just realized, I have a good ... way too many to count... old sound cards and modems... I wonder if there is any good parts on them?!!?? Or even better, wonder how hard it would be to just modify a sound card and turn it into a audio amp?Psi- "Danger? I laugh in the face of danger! Ha-ha-haa..." *moment*...wow... I wonder what it says about a 25 going on 26 year old that still loves and watches Lion King movie. I bet some where there is a room full of psychologists that would love to ask me a bunch of questions, LOL.cwalex- If you remove Pri of one and Sec of another and its the same one... won't that make the same thing or at least still a change in one way? Or did you mean like... remove sec of both and "make" a sec winding that would connect the two together where the sec's use to be? (IE: 110:24... remove both 24 and add another... so it would be 110:X:110... where X is w/e value of the coil you made) or did I miss read/understand you. LOL (which if i did... well, what about what I said above? LOL)SeanB- You're talking to the pack-rat that has stock piles of aluminum and copper heat sinks... lol and heat pipes! Or we could just submerse the whole transformer in a mildly thin coat of silicon (leaving heat sinks exposed and directly touching the transfromer) then put that directly in a moving path of coolant.*5 months later, someone comes over and see's a huge box the size of a fridge* says "Whats that?" I reply "OH! Its my silent microwave! It weight 500 pounds and you have to replace the coolant once a month, but it wont wake anyone when you heat up a mid-night snack!"What did I do at work today?Oh... questioned my sanity, thought about spending 50+ hours of work making something I can buy used for about $100, and then had about 15 people think I was crazy. Yea, for the most part, it was a productive day! (If I wasn't my own boss, I'd probably get fired... LOL)On a more serious note:Anyone have opinions about me using like... 25 to 50 small (they are like 1 inch by 1 inch maybe a little bigger) Isolation transformers and connect them all together (parallel) in hopes it will support 110v AC at... idk... 5 amps? 10 amps max? (and add a fuse to it.) They WERE all from power-in of a monitor's power supply.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2012, 04:12:49 pm
content: I don't know what sort of "isolation" transformers are those but usually isolation here stands for same voltage in and same voltage out (240V-240V)Tore a few amps down? What a pityWhat sort of transistors can you find in your CRT tv stash? They definitely have some great transistors, not sure about the N-P complement partSound cards? Nah. Forget it

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2012, 07:26:47 pm
content: Quote from: PhynixViking link=topic=12596.msg171493#msg171493 date=1355501093[size=24ptAre you sure those aren't chokes?

author: PhynixViking
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2012, 08:39:34 pm
content: T4P- I actually just eh about an hour ago... went through my stash of both sound cards and modems that were set aside for recycling, and WOW... each sound card has 1 to 2 regulators (7805 and 7809 I'm seeing a lot of.) and sound card has 2 audio amps as well as a op amp or two... and I've found a few "logic cmos" chips... and the modems of all things, ALL have 1 to 2 regulators (odd ones too!) and again... a audio amp (mono but still w/e cool ness!)Monkeh- ... *long awkward pause* ... chokes... oh yea... you know... *turns red* these... um.. they.. "might" be chokes... not so familiar with chokes... there is probably maybe... certainly definitely a minor chance... between oh.. i don't know... say... 99... and... 100... percent chance that... they are chokes... *reads up on chokes*

author: cwalex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2012, 10:49:34 am
content: I thought an isolation transformer was just a transformer with the same amount of windings on the primary as the secondary. That was why I asked the question about just replacing the secondary on a MOT with the primary from another MOT so that the windings would be equal and you would get the same voltage on the output as on the input.I think I need to read up on isolation transformers before commenting on ideas how to make them

author: PhynixViking
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2012, 11:39:13 am
content: Quote from: cwalex on December 15, 2012, 10:49:34 amNo, no... from my understanding, they are just about that... I notice that ...a lot... are slightly off example "110v in" and "113v out" why? Not 100% sure, I assume that it makes them so they can help isolate more? Causes less effects on the other end? Etc...Also! The "big ones" can essentially help protect from being electrocuted (which I'm for! Its no fun! Believe me! lol)

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2012, 11:55:20 am
content: Quote from: PhynixViking on December 15, 2012, 11:39:13 amIsolation transformer usually not exact 1:1 ratio, the secondary is "slightly" higher to compensate the drop when its loaded, hence when its "not" loaded, the measured voltage will be a bit higher.

author: cwalex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2012, 12:03:17 pm
content: Quote from: PhynixViking on December 15, 2012, 11:39:13 amHaha, I have had my fair share of electric shocks from mains devices. I accidentally place my finger across the live contacts of the back of a switch in a laminator when i was trying to adjust the roller tension and got sick of turning it off and on again after each adjustment. It really hurt my whole arm and took a long time before I felt OK. When I was 14 I touched one touched one wire from a transformer of unknown voltage with one hand and the other wire with the other hand, I don't know why I did that. I came to in the middle of the room, I don't know how long I was unconscious and I was alone at the time. I think I was really lucky to survive that. I have a much greater respect for high voltages now and I would really like to get or make an isolation transformer. I'm watching this thread closely.Sorry for the off topic.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2012, 12:08:49 pm
content: You will be better off reading on how to design a transformer for mains use. They are a little more than just same number of turns.......

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2012, 12:11:27 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 15, 2012, 12:08:49 pmI concur and made small correction at above comment.

author: cwalex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2012, 12:24:05 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 15, 2012, 12:08:49 pmThanks Sean, I'll add that to my list of stuff to do since I have a couple of weeks off over the xmas break! Thanks to everyone else that has commented on my dumb ideas tooMy dad works for the good guys so I asked him to point all his customers buying new microwaves to donate their broken ones to me

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2012, 12:47:25 pm
content: I have a little Indian printed book on how to wind your own power transistors somewhere. It gives a lot of practical advice and hints. Must be available online by now, as I bought it in the 1990's.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2012, 01:27:03 pm
content: Power transistors need winding?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2012, 01:56:15 pm
content: Transformer........ Slaps self on face........

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2012, 10:33:24 pm
content: If you are thinking about winding your own transformers or just neen info on them this site is very good.http://ludens.cl/Electron/Magnet.html

author: PhynixViking
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 02:54:24 am
content: BravoV- That makes sense. I wonder if you could use (i know I'm not calling them correct term but) AC Capacitors with a "home made" isolation transformer in order to make it more powerful (or at least more stable) and still use a 1:1 ratio?cwalex- Off topic is cool with me! ^_^ I had been electrocuted a few times... one such was this AX power supply I had just replaced in a computer (many years ago) and the damn switch wouldn't fit in right. I had tried to move it like 100 times now and yet again! When pressing it to go off, it didn't light up! So angerly and frustrated I reached in and moved the thing and tried to press switch, but... when I grabbed the switch from the inside of the case (back of the switch) my hand/arm stopped moving... I remember it very well as it was so odd, I saw "blue" for a moment, and then "yanked" my arm out. Couldn't move my arm at all for about 15 minutes (as if it was "asleep" from laying on it) and then was numb for hours, LOL (yes I didn't have any permanent damage or even burns. Those old AT power supplies had Mains directly to that switch then back to the power supply. No fun...)There was a few other times.. but... for the most parttoday I wear rubber safety gloves to protect myself.^_^SeanBandG7PSK- I kinda am upset that "right now" in my life I'm getting more and more in to as well as learning so much more about electronics (above just repairing things) My grandfather was VP of "Plastic Capacitors INC" (aka PCi) in Chicago, IL. He recently retired.. no fun... but they make giant and amazingly high voltage (tens to hundreds of KV) capacitors as well as MANY types of very high amp or high voltage huge transformers. I tried to get a job there but I could tell the owner of the place looked at me and saw "young" all over and didn't want to hire me. Its kinda going under but they made great stuff. I learned how to make caps but... I should of looked more into how they made transformers too. (Bla! And I took pics but can't post them because they did government things and bla bla blaaa.. can't post pics or explain details of how they did things...)I might go into making a few transformers... I made a capacitor before and it was quite fun!! But, never a transformer. I guess the hardest part would be making/finding a core to use.Everyone- I'm rather glad I struck up a topic so many are interested in! ^__^