Dyson V15 Vacuum Cleaner - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cemelec
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 04:46:42 pm
content: I have a lot of respect for James Dyson, but one of his latest creations, the V15 Vacuum Cleaner, is pushing my credibility a bit far.It claims to use a "Laser Technology" to detect, size and count dust particles, and display them on a mini histogram on a display mounted on the cleaner.I'm into anything high tech, but this seems a bit of a stretch even for me. Like most people, I like clean floors and carpets, but is this for suckers with more money than sense?

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 05:52:13 pm
content: Quote from: cemelec on July 22, 2021, 04:46:42 pmIt's true that it isn't high tech, but it's possible...Your take is wrong too.What it is, a laser moving from left to right (or the opposite direction) at high speed. Maybe achieved using rotating mirror or galvo, similar to how bar code readers used to project a line by using a point laser. Or maybe even a simple fixed lens to have a simple flat line projectionWhy laser? cause it's a point source of light, the smaller the light source, the clearer the shadows. you can probably make the projector yourself.OFC your floor needs to be reasonably flat for it to workBut I bet the computer will fail in 5 years, and they'll blame it on something like eeprom with too many writes or failing lcd glue or the acoustic sensor getting sucked along with stuff or something, and you won't be able to fix it, cause they don't provide spares anymore.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 05:57:25 pm
content: Why would anyone deliberately design something with bearings running at 125k rpm?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 06:37:38 pm
content: Particle sensors are nothing new and used in many applications including estimating air quality.Now claiming to be able to distinguish particle size in any relevant way sounds a bit too much. It's likely close to bullshit. Or maybe it can roughly distinguish between two ranges of particle size, I'd doubt something more subtle than this. A histogram? Yeah right.But giving you a particle count per unit of volume, sure. Now people sensitive/allergic to dust had better invest in a proper air quality sensor rather than wait for their vacuum cleaner to tell them. Just a thought.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 07:35:13 pm
content: What is the point? Why do we need to care how dirty the floor is before we clean it? A vacuum cleaner is meant to clean the surface, IDC how dirty it was before the machine should do it's job and get it clean. What is it going to do, tell you that it isn't clean yet? Well that's the machine's fault, if it's meant to gauge cleaning performance, there are far easier ways like airflow sensors which are not rare on vacuums these days. As long as it's operating correctly, and you know how to use a vacuum cleaner, there is no reason to scan the surface.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 08:29:34 pm
content: Seeing where the floor is still drity can help a little when cleaning, so you see where you already were. Not really needed and more of an extra for the premium model. Kind of like the idea, though there may be a laser warning lable missing.The explaination of particle detection from impact sounds very plausible. No real doubt it works and build in numbers it can be reasonable cheap. Displaying the particle numbers can be a bit of scary to some. This could be a good feeling to see you actuall remove dirt and see when done. Again this is more the extra for those who don't care about an extra $100 for the display.

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 09:14:10 pm
content: I believe he infers that the laser is not actually used to count and measure the particle size (that's done acoustically somewhere "inside the machine"). The laser simply makes bigger particles visible to the eye (through light scattering) by illuminating them with a light sheet almost parallel to the floor. Smart. I could use this technologyto find small screws and parts on the floor.I'm more impressed by the hair anti-tangle feature. I'm wondering if it really works (not that I expect lots of hair on my floors from my head in the years to come)

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2021, 06:51:26 am
content: No idea about the vaccum, but I'm suspicious of anyone that has to wear a mask on-camera. Is it protecting them or us, or are they just making a gesture? Either way, it reflects a low opinion of their (potential) customers.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2021, 05:01:50 pm
content: The mask should not be needed with a good vacuum cleaner. With a poor quality vaccum it may actually be a good idea to wear a proper mask because of the fine dust they emit and make airborne again.The mask in the commercial video looks a bit funny - maybe this is in an actual shop and this "required" also for the personal.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2021, 05:35:05 pm
content: AFAIK, Dyson pride themselves in designing vacuum cleaners that release extremely low level of fine particles while vacuuming.Anyway, even with a basic vacuum cleaner, wearing a mask? Are you serious?(Unless you have a specific condition of course.)Masks in commercials are now just propaganda.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2021, 05:46:14 pm
content: My wonderful DC02 came with a HEPA filter as standard, so any dust it launches would be likely not stopped by a mere medical mask.Wish they still made the DC02, or something very similar. It's the best vacuum we've had, which is why we still use it. Only real issue is the cord retractor not locking out now. Actually, a current cylinder model might be even better, but far too expensive to try it just to find out.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2021, 02:07:52 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 25, 2021, 05:46:14 pmThe upright Dysons that I have owned have thrown a strong jet of their exhaust air downward and forward though. It presumably kicks up a lot of dust from the area that it hasn't vacuumed yet and getting it airborne.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2021, 05:24:52 pm
content: That does sound a bit of a design fail.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2021, 06:27:10 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 26, 2021, 05:24:52 pmIf it does this, yes it is. I thought I had heard Dyson say that they designed vacuum cleaners to minimize getting dust airborne. Maybe I was dreaming. Or maybe they were lying?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2021, 09:07:20 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 26, 2021, 06:27:10 pmI still think the zero Carbon emissions tag line is one of his best (the HEPA filter catches the dust from the motor brushes).

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2021, 09:25:49 pm
content: Do they not use brushless motors?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2021, 09:37:34 pm
content: Laser particle counters have been around for decades and these days it's possible to make them compact and inexpensive, there's nothing dodgy about them at all. Whether there is value in integrating a particle counter in a vacuum cleaner I don't know but it will work of course.Yes they use brushless motors, I have an older Dyson cordless vacuum cleaner and it's great. I bought it on sale and I've been using it regularly for around 10 years, best cordless vacuum I've used.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2021, 09:43:14 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on July 22, 2021, 08:29:34 pmRoomba vacuuming robots have used this method since the beginning. They have one or two dirt detectors which consist of a piezo disk connected to a small analog PCB mounted in the lid of the brush deck. They work very well, when it runs over a few grains of kitty little or other stuff on the floor a blue light comes on and the Roomba circles a few times over that spot.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2021, 09:53:22 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 26, 2021, 09:25:49 pmNot on the mains ones, the referenced DC02 was a pull-along mains one. He, of course, also claims zero Carbon emissions on the brushless ones for that reason.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2021, 11:56:12 pm
content: Yeah I don't know of any plug-in vacuum cleaners that use brushless motors although I'm sure it will happen at some point, the motors and controllers have gotten so cheap and they're a lot quieter. I don't think a little carbon dust from the motor is a hazard though, that sounds like marketing just using the "carbon emissions" trendy buzzword in an unconventional way referring to elemental carbon.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 09:35:36 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 26, 2021, 11:56:12 pmisn't that just Dyson in a nut shell, technical gobbledygook and hyperbole claims? 90% of their budget must be ads and making plastic look as complicated as possible

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 09:54:22 am
content: 900 bucks for a vacuum cleaner. What an absolute bargain.I just have the robot to do it, really.Saves an absolute ton of time.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 11:33:54 am
content: I think Dyson is kind of like the Jobs of vacuums. When Jobs made the iPhone, all the parts already existed but he presented them in a way that just clicked. All the parts of Dyson vacuums were already around, but it is he that kicked off the bagless cyclone fad. Indeed, the main reason I got mine was because I was fed up of having to buy and dispose of bags - I had perfectly good vacuums, but the bags...Nowadays I won't consider a vacuum that isn't bagless. We have a few, and even the non-cyclone ones are bagless to the extent that if they use filters they are reusable filters. When Dyson was punting his stuff, so far as I can recall, bagless was rare. Presumably the manufacturers were copying the razor-blade model of funding, which might explain why Dyson's stuff was expensive in comparison. I think the introduction of his early models was as big and significant as the iPhone in the domestic market, and the cost reflected that.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 11:39:01 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 26, 2021, 11:56:12 pmThere are / were some Festool professional shop vaccum cleaners that use a switched reluctance motor - kind of a brushless version, but without the permanent magents. New brushless motors are often hybrids, combining swtiched reluctance and permanent magnets. This was an expensice one ( >$1000) made for long run time.With the EU regualtions on power consumption of vaccum cleaners, I would not be surprosed to find them in some of the higher priced versions for household cleaners too.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 04:41:42 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 26, 2021, 11:56:12 pmSo cheap? Nah. Low power brushless motors have become cheap, sure. The ones you would use on a small RC model.For the kind of power you need for a vacuum cleaner, they are definitely NOT cheap, and in any case a lot more expensive than the brushed alternatives. Consider that a typical decent mains vacuum cleaner has an 2000 W motor, or so.Now given the price tag of Dyson vacuum cleaners, they could certainly use them in their mains ones. But hey, you gotta keep your margins high.As to carbon dust from brushed motors... yeah. I think we have more pressing pollution issues to solve.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 05:37:35 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 27, 2021, 04:41:42 pmafaik EU now limits vacuum cleaners to 900W and 80dB

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 09:08:29 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 27, 2021, 04:41:42 pmI have several model airplanes with brushless motors that are over 400W and cost less than $20 retail. A typical vacuum cleaner here is around 1200W, I see no reason a brushless motor in that power range couldn't be mass produced for a price not greatly more than that of a comparable universal motor. The magnets are relatively expensive but they are mechanically simpler and contain less copper. The drive electronics used to be expensive at higher powers but that stuff gets cheaper all the time.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 09:11:10 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 27, 2021, 11:33:54 amI had several different bagless vacuum cleaners that were more trouble than they were worth, constantly filling up and clogging. For a while I went back to a bag vacuum and that worked much better, it would go months between needing the bag changed. Then I got the Dyson we have now and I was finally impressed, it's the only bagless vacuum I've used that actually works properly.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 09:31:39 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 27, 2021, 09:08:29 pmWell sure. It's all a matter of market. It's just more expensive at this point because high-power brushless motors address different markets.So for this to happen, manufacturers need to take the plunge. But who is going to do it unless they are forced to? Benefits include: possibly a bit lower noise, and, most of all, a much, much longer life. But manufacturers do not care about long life. They want to sell stuff!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 09:34:51 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on July 27, 2021, 05:37:35 pmAh, really. I have a 2000W LG vacuum cleaner that still works great. Noise I don't know for sure, but I don't think it exceeds 80 dB, or not by much.Unless manufacturers can manage to design something as effective with only 900W, then I'm happy to have bought it before. Dang.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 10:22:37 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 27, 2021, 09:34:51 pmafaiu at one point EU mandated an "effectivity" rating on vacuums but it was removed because Dyson won a lawsuit against it.He did not see it as fair to bagless vacuums since bagged vaccuums was only measured with an empty bag

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 12:43:49 am
content: It's hard to quantitatively measure the efficacy of a vacuum cleaner, it depends so much on the specific conditions. Seems a bit silly to mandate energy efficiency for something like that though. A typical vacuum cleaner probably gets run an hour or less a month. My vacuum could draw 20kW and while plugging it in and lugging around the power cord would be inconvenient, I doubt I'd notice the difference on my utility bill. I doubt I even run my upright vacuum that often even, I have a Roomba on each level that run on schedule and do a lot of the maintenance cleaning.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 01:33:42 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 28, 2021, 12:43:49 amEU mandated that the rear lights on cars be off in day time to save energy, resulting in people driving around with no rear lights because theyforgot to turn on the main light when it got dark. So it is now required that new cars have no rear lights in the day and automatically turns onthe main lights when darkall to save, what, 20W (before LEDs)

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 03:57:46 am
content: With the vaccum cleaners the constructions got crazy: just before the regulations came up the manufacturers got into ever higher power rating by making the motor cooling more efficient and the actual efficiency worse. The consumed power was just missleading the consumers and had very little to do with the actual air flow. So a new 800 W cleaner may actual work better than the old 2000 W example.The power limit may be a bit drastic, but it worked well. The better alternative may have been to require realistic data one the air flow instead of the electrical power consumption.With cars we asume lower consumption to be better - wie a vaccum cleaner for some reason they made is think more consumption is better.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 04:30:50 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 28, 2021, 12:43:49 amI agree. This is just greenish wank, coming from people with more ideology than pragmatism and essentially knowing life through Excel sheets.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 07:36:46 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on July 28, 2021, 03:57:46 amIt's just a matter of semantics, using different units. With cars if we look at horsepower then higher is still usually regarded as better. Fuel economy is a more important metric for many people though because they are not enthusiasts and even a modest car has plenty of power for them, fuel is expensive and many people use their cars a lot.Vacuum cleaners are used only occasionally, the power consumption is virtually irrelevant but people do care about efficacy, it's only natural that "more power" = better. If I had a choice between two vacuum cleaners, one that was barely adequate but highly efficient and another that was twice as powerful but consumed 10 times the energy I'd choose the more powerful one every time, and so would most people I think. The additional cost to run it is simply not significant.