Need help to recover Bios on Intel BL440ZX / Tek TDS 8000 scope - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Tracker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 06:40:32 pm
content: Hello Guys!I'm not sure if this question should be in Repair, Vintage computing or here ... so apologies to the mods if its in the wrong Forum.I have a nice Tektronix TDS 8000 digital Scope which uses an Intel Motherboard BL440ZX and Win 98 OS.However it wont boot and wont enter Bios either, the 'Entering Bios' tag appears but flashes then the boot fails.Upon investigation I found the Bios battery to be totally flat, so most likely the MB Bios is corrupted.With the battery replaced it still wont boot into BIOS, so it must be corrupt.The MB Manual talks about Bios recovery via Diskette, it says the files are available from Intel.However I can only find a BIOS upgrade .exe on the Intel website which wont run on my PC, it's probably way too old!No mention of the recovery files anywhere!Intel wont help, they last supported motherboards in 2016, and their forums don't seem very active.So...Has anyone got any idea how I can obtain the recovery files for the Diskette for this old MB?ThanksTracker

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 09:09:53 pm
content: A. The "BIOS battery" isn't for the BIOS. Firmwares on these boards were stored on flash memory, and while it could definitely be corrupted (or even the flash could have gone dead by now), the battery most certainly would not have been the cause. The only purpose it serves is for the RTCB. Indeed these systems have the ability to very quickly flash the BIOS via floppy. You said you had the EXE? Well that's all you need as it contains the BIOS within it. Simply extract the contents of the EXE (7zip works) and find the BIOS image. dd this to a floppy diskette, and then follow the instructions to flash. This does not mean copy the file to the diskette, this means bit for bit write the information in the image to one. Some USB floppy drives, as far as I am aware, cannot do this, so you may have to use a real floppy controller.

author: Tracker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 09:56:30 pm
content: Hi Ampera,Many thanks for this invaluable steer...I have extracted the BIOS.REC file from the Intel provided .exe file.Next issue is that I no longer have any PC with a 3.5" disk drive, it's been years since I had one.The Intel web site talks of USB and CD recovery options, along with Diskette.https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000005630/boards-and-kits.htmlNow the TDS8000 just happens to have a USB and CD drive hooked up to the Intel BL440ZX MB.I will first try to use the USB drive option , I have an old 2GB USB stick which may work.Do I still need to do a bit for bit write on the USB?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 09:58:27 pm
content: On normal motherboards it also powers a small RAM which holds some BIOS configuration data. This could in theory cause problem if the data are garbled rather than zeroed out and the BIOS is lousy and doesn't checksum anything.Equally well something else may be wrong, perhaps the RTC hasn't even worked for a while and the machine died only recently? It could be borked flash or anything else, like a spilled capacitor somewhere.Did you download this?https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/7567/BIOS-Update-BL440ZX-?product=50298It says it's an EXE which needs to be run under DOS to unpack itself and create a script RUN.BAT which performs the actual upgrade. It is possible to create a bootable DOS installation on a pendrive, put that EXE file there, boot it, run the EXE and perform the upgrade. Look up some instructions on the Internet.I am not however sure if i440ZX motherboards supported USB booting, although they surely supported USB keyboards. I am not sure either if the board gets to a point where booting is possible, either from USB or a floppy.

author: Tracker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 10:10:32 pm
content: The TDS 8000 has been unused for several years, possibly 10 .

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 09:14:58 am
content: I can tell you this much:This board does not support USB booting, USB flashing, or anything USB unless you were to boot into an operating system with USB support (chicken and the egg here)BIOSes on Intel boards are not known to have issues with BIOS setting issues, and nor do most PC compatible motherboards with removable RTC batteries. You can attempt to find the "Clear CMOS" jumper on the board, and follow instructions to clear the volatile RAM that does store the BIOS settings (this is not the same as the flash that stores the BIOS).If you want your board back, and if it is a corrupted BIOS (I have no clue if it is or not, it's possible as that flash is old, and it's not unheard of for it to have minor issues like that), you'll need to use a floppy diskette, there is no way around this outside desoldering the very small, very fragile surface mount flash chip (it should even say flash on it), and then rigging up a compatible EEPROM flasher to write the BIOS image to it that way. This is on an order of magnitude more complicated than simply buying a PCI floppy controller and using the floppy drive in the scope to write a diskette you can then use to flash the BIOS.I myself have an Intel SE440BX-II and VS440FX which are fairly similar boards (all the xx440xx boards are very similar to each other). These are not expensive boards, and you can very likely find a working replacement for the entire board on ebay (or such) for at most 40-50 bucks. (P.S. I looked into that a bit, and it seems like your scope might use a custom board with a big ass edge connector on the side, if this is the case, then it might not be as simple to find a replacement)

author: Tracker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 10:43:14 am
content: Thanks Ampera, much appreciated.Yes the MB does have that big ass edge connector on the side.But on the bright side, I've located a pc with diskette drive and its seems to be operational.So I'll go the easy route as you advise.The scope was lying idle for many years, but assumed working by the previous owner. No known issues when it was last used.So I suspect I'm looking at an ageing related issue.Indeed there is a bios jumper with 3 poles, Ive tried the force into setup settings but its gets me the same result as F2 key.Without a jumper it goes into recovery mode and reads from the diskette , no video support, just beeps to indicate completion.Fairly primitive but workable.I'll update progress here.Cheers

author: Tracker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 11:17:53 am
content: Just checked the MB manual looking for 'Clear CMOS' option, but didnt find anything.However I did read this in section 1.4.2.3This may explain why this MD is dead, the battery was totally flat.Real-Time Clock, CMOS SRAM, and BatteryThe real-time clock is compatible with DS1287 and MC146818 components. The clock provides atime-of-day clock and a multicentury calendar with alarm features and century rollover. The realtimeclock supports 256 bytes of battery-backed CMOS SRAM in two banks that are reserved forBIOS use.The time, date, and CMOS values can be specified in the Setup program. The CMOS values canbe returned to their defaults by using the Setup program.A coin-cell battery powers the real-time clock and CMOS memory. When the computer is notplugged into a wall socket, the battery has an estimated life of three years. When the computer isplugged in, the 3.3 V standby current extends the life of the battery. The clock is accurate to ± 13minutes/year at 25 ºC with 3.3 V applied.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 11:30:29 am
content: Some boards like this I believe also have a 3 position unpopulated jumper with a wire connecting two of the positions. This is where the CMOS "jumper" is on those boards. I've found it's perfectly fine to short all three shut to clear CMOS, though this isn't advised as you are shorting the battery straight to ground. Clear CMOS should also just be possible by just removing the battery and waiting 30 minutes.If you're saying it's in that sort of recovery situation, though, then maybe the BIOS is corrupt and it is trying to do that. I forget how it works, and have never done it myself.

author: Johnny10
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 12:31:13 pm
content: More than likely the BIOS is not corrupt it is simply set to boot off PXE Boot EnvironmentI had a few motherboards with this problem.You need to reset BIOS with jumper to be able to get back into BIOS.It is not a big deal to reset with jumper.Set to pins 2&3 and goes direct into Setup after POSTThere was a note about this, I believe on the Tektronix site.Manual is here:http://www.elhvb.com/mobokive/Archive/Intel/BL440ZX_72609201.pdf

author: Tracker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 01:09:05 pm
content: Thanks Johnny,But the issue I have is that the Motherboard refuses to enter into setup.I have tried the F2 key and also forcing it by jumping pins 2&3.It seems to try... I get 'Entering setup' on the screen, but then the words 'Entering Setup' flash off/on a few times and then it seems to give up it go about it's normal boot.Your correct about PXE boot.the first thing it does is this:"PXE-M04 : Initializing network boot device using interrupt 18th..."then it beeps twice followed by a single beep and displays this:"B: Drive Error""Press F1 to continue"after selecting F1 it displays this:"PXE-E61: media test failure, check cable.""PXE-M0F: Exiting LANdisk (R) Service Agent II"then nothing more.Pressing Ctrl-Alt-Del just cycles it again.So I think it does attempt Lan boot first and I need to enter BIOS to change that as you said.

author: Johnny10
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 01:35:21 pm
content: Have you tried going to boot menu and selecting HD?

author: Tracker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 01:43:24 pm
content: If you mean F10 on boot up.. yes I tried that and nothing happens.Also,If I interrupt the PXE boot with the Esc key, it seems to change the sequence, I now can get a big 'Tektronix' logo splash screen (in full color).But shortly after I get the B: Drive error again.So i guess the splash screen comes from BIOS but it still fails to boot.

author: Johnny10
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 02:28:36 pm
content: This is not an uncommon problem.Found this on TEK site:https://forum.tek.com/viewtopic.php?t=137000And don't forget TIN did an exhaustive post on the TDS7404https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tek-csa7404-repair-project/

author: Tracker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 04:27:13 pm
content: Ah Ha!Very good indeed.That's exactly my issue.But disappointing that Juan Manuel was unable to recover it.His attempt at BIOS recovery with the Intel BIOS bricked the motherboard because Tek employed a custom BIOS which resides on the Hard Disk.The fact I witnessed the Tek splash screen in encouraging, I will drop my plans to recover the BIOS using the default Intel BIOS file.Instead, I've ordered an IDE to SATA adapter so I can read the Hard Disk on my own PC, hopefully it will yield something.TIN's issue was slightly different and I may yet encounter it if I ever get the Intel board running.I may also check the battery in the data acquisition board, it's most likely flat also and the calibration lost.

author: Johnny10
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 07:34:58 pm
content: xdevs site also has BIOS for your board.https://doc.xdevs.com/article/tek/I know it takes a lot of reading to get through the Tin's EEV Blog post but the xdevs link has BIOS information right at the top :-)

author: Tracker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 09:00:34 pm
content: What about the difference in motherboard?TiN's unit is the CSA7404 and uses NLX motherboardMy unit is TDS8000 and uses BL440ZXThese board look quite different, would they share a common BIOS?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 09:34:15 pm
content: I would check voltage rails for ripple before attempting any flashing on such old equipment.

author: Tracker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 09:43:14 pm
content: Quote from: magic on July 19, 2019, 09:34:15 pmWould that be because you suspect poor/aged smoothing caps may corrupt the re-flashing process?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 10:13:11 pm
content: Precisely. Moreover, they could interfere with normal operation too, if you know what I mean.BTW, I once had a WiFi router which corrupted its flash every now and then. Turned out, it was a bad capacitor on whichever rail that powered the flash. I suppose the flash was being written every now and then, to save some configuration changes or statistics, and then it corrupted unrelated sectors due to logic glitches. I was lucky I fixed it before the bootloader got nuked, I wouldn't know how to fix it with JTAG.

author: Johnny10
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 10:37:55 pm
content: That top BIOS is for BL440ZXTektronix TDS7104 INTEL BL440ZX Motherboard BIOShttps://doc.xdevs.com/article/tek/I have two working TDS7104 units with BLX boards.The NLX board has more features.

author: Tracker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 11:38:57 pm
content: Thanks Johnny, good to have it confirmed.And thanks Magic, I'll be sure to check the ripple.

author: Johnny10
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 11:51:25 pm
content: Just read through TIN's 7404 Post again !!!Wow !!!I forgot just how much information about this series scope is on there.I fixed my scope with it a year or so ago.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2019, 06:18:38 am
content: By the way, I own two 440 chipset motherboards and both had good flash last time I tried (a few months/years ago, respectively).My parents decommissioned two AMD boards from the same era a few years ago, both worked too.I just don't think flash is a common failure. I have never seen it or heard of it. And AFAIK flash is never written to in pre-UEFI boards, it just sits there and stores a few megs of data.Also, BIOS images should generally be checksummed (except for a very small initial segment which verifies the checksum among other things) and you would likely get some beeps or error messages if something were corrupted. For example, some AMI BIOS beep code guide I just found lists "9 short beeps" as a code indicating BIOS ROM checksum error.Not saying that there is absolutely no possibility of this particular BIOS being lousy and trying to execute faulty code. But flash failure is something that software usually anticipates and tries to deal with.

author: Tracker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2019, 08:14:52 pm
content: Quote from: magic on July 20, 2019, 06:18:38 amPoint taken, I'm not fully convinced it corrupted BIOS either, I can get the Tektronix splash screen which suggests the BIOS is at least partially working. And there are no BIOS beeps.I don't want to risk bricking the MB, so I plan to conduct some other tests / checks first. BIOS recovery will be my final option.

author: benzn
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 13, 2020, 11:57:24 pm
content: @Tracker did you ever recover your scope?I have the same symptoms (B: Drive Error) on a BL440ZX-based TDS7404 after leaving it unplugged for a few months. I've checked all the power supplies (they're fine) and the PPC board boots up to show "L" on the 8 segment display which means it's waiting for the host to come online.For future travelers, here's what I've managed to do so far (after replacing the CMOS battery):1. I had a Win98 recovery disk (thank god I made this because I haven't been able to create an MS-DOS boot disk from Windows 10 via a USB Floppy Drive).2. I've confirmed that this boots into an MS-DOS prompt after I hit F1, because I can run commands even though I can't see anything out of the VGA port (specifically, I can run the BEEP command from the TEK BIOS zip).3. I've cleared the CMOS using KILLCMOS, this doesn't change anything however.4. I've run IFLASH with the necessary files alongside from the TEK BIOS zip.5. I've booted the machine with the recovery jumper off, so that it will attempt to update itself that way.None of these make any difference, I can't enter the BIOS and I still get the same 1-2 beep as the VGA output dies. Seems like the display controller is truly hosed.

author: benzn
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 04:55:58 pm
content: For visitors from the future with the same problem:Another user was kind enough to image their CMOS settings from a working device and put them into a boot disk which I used to successfully restore my scope. See this post:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tek-csa7404-repair-project/msg3095992/#msg3095992