MINT taken over by private interests.... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2022, 10:05:25 am
content: Seen this film a dozen times last decades...BIG corp buz takeover small or smaller folks and gradually sink them..I am also wondering for quite a time that *NIX has been taken overby private interests .. big corps (fill the blanks..) which has nothingto do with *NIX but sinking them for their good...CF SLASH.. it won't take long...https://linux.slashdot.org/story/22/01/10/1930243/linux-mint-sells-out-for-mozilla-money?utm_source=rss0.9mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feedhttps://www.linuxmint.com/start/this film repeats over and over.. no changes.no competition no market .. just a hand of big corps buz...Paul

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2022, 12:16:06 pm
content: More hyperbole me thinks.I use Mint and AFAICT they have accepted sponsorship from Mozilla in exchange for delivering plain-vanilla FF, just as any user would get if they downloaded FF from Mozilla's website. You don't even have to use it. Isn't Brave the new kid on the block anyway?Mint is an excellent distribution (for me) and if this keeps developers employed/interested or even expands the number of paid developers, then great. All the better for me.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2022, 12:38:09 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on January 11, 2022, 12:16:06 pmMade a MINT vanilla to my 6y nephew play his loved games...Minecraft and Sargent MarkiV BrutalDoom (comic mode)..He love that xyt... can "upgrade" system.. click anything..fuss around.. that buntu thingys is made for kids..obviously he does not have a clue what he does..Choosen that hoping to prevent to expose him to the under the hoodmodel of thinking that letting your privacy data in the hands ofsome corp buz.. (GPS info, com info... habits etc.. ) is anaturalornormalthing..E.G>it should not be normalfor a child to think that surrenderhis personal data info is acceptable... it should...notThings got to ground zero again..Starting to look alternatives to wipe out the mint machinewith some safe trusty other.. free of commercial spyware shitware..I think Arch derivatives should be fine for him now...still wondering..Paul

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2022, 12:42:38 pm
content: Which meds are you on exactly?Please stick to the prescribed dosages, for your own safety.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2022, 12:47:45 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on January 11, 2022, 12:42:38 pmJust coffee strong black no sugar...Helps me keep the pace of maintaining things working at safe sane level...Including our game server.... alas ... he loves that so much hekept his super heroes on top of it..BUNTUs were working fine so far .. in such case...I think it won't take long to turn out to be EXACTLY a MS replica...Paul

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2022, 11:41:14 pm
content: Talking about a storm in a teacup. Of all the companies that could buy out Mint, Mozilla is not a terrible option. I'd rather have them than Google, Facebook, etc.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2022, 06:32:38 pm
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on January 11, 2022, 11:41:14 pmThe idea crossed my mind.. but fast the bottom line arises..Unless you play the game by (fill the blanks) rules..Soon it should be impossible to have a non privatized hardware+software OSThings just add-up. Add this one combine them allhttps://www.microsoft.com/security/blog/2020/11/17/meet-the-microsoft-pluton-processor-the-security-chip-designed-for-the-future-of-windows-pcs/Paul

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 12:24:21 am
content: Quote from: PKTKS on January 11, 2022, 10:05:25 amNo, they only took Mozilla money in exchange for using the exact Mozilla Firefox package in Mint, and use specific Firefox-related settings like search engines.I'm not sure how Ifeelabout it, especially long term (did they tie their hands for the foreseeable future? What if Mozilla turns Google, and starts exploiting the users as the commodity they sell?), but I do understand why they did it: it was a fair financial transaction, that helps keep Mint alive.The main reason I do not think this is indicative of future direction taken by Mint devs at all, is that right now,allbrowsers are monetized to some degree, or bastardized somehow. (One of my favourite related peeves is how UTF-8 has been declared the only non-legacy character set, so that it is the only one you cannot choose as your default character set; and basically all browser developers agreed to do this. Why? That much extra work to make sure users cannot choose a single character set as their default one? Insane.)Now, if Mint developers and maintainers were taking money from anyone besides the upstream package developer, in exchange for packaging a specific version of some application,thenI would agree with PKTKS that this would be worrying. But, because it is just upstream Mozilla, I don't think it is a takeover situation; and is just one of those search-engine-default type of deal that in this case also includes a clause that you keep to upstream version of the browser. Very limited, very clear, and does not hide any details. And thus far it seems they do not intend to make it any harder for end users to use a non-Mint package for the browser either. So, looks like above-the-board to me, even if I am not sure Ilikethe move.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 02:21:41 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on January 13, 2022, 12:24:21 amWell.. considering a couple of rationales..:- byundisclosedamount of money.. sure they are not doing that for kicks..- consideringhow longand so many times.. MS tried to shit out Mozilla...seems reasonable to assume Mozilla is carving out their path into a distro( very well chosen one) so they will have their spot in the sun..I can not see this so kind ..Considering how hard MS is trying to enter and lock everything bottom to topinto their own realm... running atop theirsafebundledprocessorThatsecurity gizmo..combined with top down GPU lock..make any browser useless unless having the so calledpartnersupport by them..Kernel devels rejected once.. and IMHO should reject that shit for goodhttps://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/latest-phoronix-articles/1302053-microsoft-reworks-the-dxgkrnl-driver-it-wants-to-get-into-the-linux-kernelPaul

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 07:28:53 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on January 13, 2022, 12:24:21 amYep. A lot of ado for not (that) much so far... but obviously, big money never comes with no strings attached, thinking otherwise is delusional.Unfortunately, all major Linux distros (those that get any kind of traction) are now maintained by large organizations that need the money to function, so the consequences are inevitable. Sooner or later.The only thing you can do, if you're uncomfortable with that, is to use none of those distros, and settle for something a lot less popular. Quite a few out there that are decent and, not being as "mainstream" as Mint or Ubuntu (or...) do not come with the same potential issues. Of course the extreme is, you can always make your own distro.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 01:02:03 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 13, 2022, 07:28:53 pmWith that PUTO processor inside every MOBO forced in everybody life?Don't think so it is much a do about nothing...I will ditch these MS PUTO processors MOBOs by default..Paul

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 01:29:25 pm
content: Please give Mozilla some slack. They are not the worst guys currently (title has a tendency to rotate). The worst threat against a free Internet is Google's total dominance in the browser market. They have a big influence on web standards and their corporate interest sometimes overshadows what is beneficial for common people. Now I don't believe in evil and good talk (everything isn't black and white), but without competition, Google can do a lot of harm without anyone noticing. That's why I prefer to use Firefox and so should anyone else who understands the importance of the whole situation. Would it have been the other way around, I would of course been using Google's browser.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 01:51:09 pm
content: Quote from: jukk on January 14, 2022, 01:29:25 pmI am a big fan boy of Mozilla...They saved me from the nasty alternatives... since 90s...Never ever needed any other browser..They have my deep respects concerning their great work..resistance across all these decades of MS dirt tricks..But even being optimist the short future ahead is closing fast..RedHat now IBM give a shit to everybody POTTERIX has been promotedto de facto system .. from there nothing better should come..Debian was totally biased to POTTERIX since the sponsors put a lotof biased seats on all Debian chain.. Devuan is a life saver boat ..MINT based on BUNT base on Debian.. is a really alternative to MS nasty realm.But if they lock the hardware and do the same dirt game as usual..Partners and hidden sick things...things are getting messy.. Firefox changed way too muchto "position" themselves in this trends..Hopefully they will still resist these new dirt tricks..But hardware processors are not simple..IF we can can dessolder them from these "new" PCs..Paul

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 02:20:43 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on January 14, 2022, 01:51:09 pmI respect that everyone doesn't like everything. But some in the systemd disliker crowd for sure sound like they have escaped from some mental institution. Why all the hate and foul talking? Sounding like someone robbed them off their childhood, or worse. If you have real arguments and facts, no need to sound like some batsh*t crazy right-wing conspiracy believer. State your facts and leave it at that. With this kind of talk, you will never, ever, convince anyone of your standpoint, they will only see the foul naming and not the real arguments.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 02:47:01 pm
content: Quote from: jukk on January 14, 2022, 02:20:43 pmNo man.. absolute no hate or blinded...They are FORCING this insane bloated daemon with every sortof useless and absolute impossible to deal with "pile of stuff things.."WTF does the PID 1 INIT daemon has to mess with:- DNS resolver (the utmost thing in security..) (not even ISC could release a better one)- File system messy things.. (all file systems.. formats... )- Partition handle (WTF does INIT has to handle partitions?)- User home... (this one came from the madhouse..)- All sort of device handling cause they need to check devices? for who?- and the list goes on..So.. WTF does this makes sense .. at all to FORCE that into every single distro?There is no hate. Even no need to argue..Systemd is a EGOTRIP from some small group ..paid ... they have to make a business over it..The rest of the sane world should not be kind with that insanity..The rationale is very clear.Once they have entered the main distribution chain..Like Debian ( thanks Devuan fork) Arch. itself (with alternatives...)and some others just follow the herd..Now it makes sense for a privatized hardware to force systemd.Otherwise it would be impossible to use that "pile of glued things"..Good best practices are one by one the opposite of systemd.Nobody cares as long as there is a business behind it.But clever people forked that and should not be silent about it...no hate .. the folks are just replicating an old model of bad habitsPaul

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 02:51:04 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on January 14, 2022, 02:47:01 pmIt's just a freaking bit of software. It's not your human rights taken away and innocent people put tortured in prisons. Get over it.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 03:43:35 pm
content: Quote from: jukk on January 14, 2022, 02:20:43 pmLooking at the quality of the code the systemd developers push out, I wonder if those who think that output is acceptable have indeed escaped from some mental institution, sure.Quote from: jukk on January 14, 2022, 02:20:43 pmAt this point, systemd, like gnome and others, are already semi-religiousbrands, and no argument on their merits or downsides will change anybodys mind anymore.Talking about them in public (as opposed to among contributing developers) is about as useful as discussing clothing brands and their relative merits.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 05:00:31 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on January 14, 2022, 03:43:35 pmIt is a total security nightmare...A pile over pile of code glued together..not even capable to spot the real purpose of so much independent code piled..Anyone used to secure systems know how hardwasthe FIASCOof ISC trying to re-write abetter BIND..They have figured it out the hard way rolling BIND back to the good release.The systemd troop is just not capable to understand a thing abouthow bad security oriented is the their pile of stuff..they collect security problemsIf that severs something ..my 6y nephew play games over a systemd based MINT.Perfect for his games... say what.. that is enoughPaul

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 08:15:35 pm
content: I don't care which system/component/feature won whatever in this case. It isn't like someone has taken over the web standards and turned the web into their personal corporate gold mine by sucking us poor users empty (or wait a minute, that might actually be what someone is trying to do elsewhere while you are still bitching about init systems!). Within the linux world, you can't always have competition within all layers of the system. Yes, there are and have been competition and alternatives, also in the initialization system stuff. But sometimes harmonization is good for parts of the system that really doesn't matter in the long run for the sake of competition. And sometimes it's not the best alternative from all perspectives that wins. What I do care about is a fully working, developing, forward-looking infrastructure, where components are supported and evolving. If you are so sure that systemd is that bad, why haven't we seen the catastrophic events yet? Or we just have to wait, for sure, before heaven falls upon all of us. I'm so sick of religious zealots... Not going to comment further. Thanks and excuses.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2022, 02:12:02 am
content: Quote from: jukk on January 14, 2022, 08:15:35 pmWell, I do, for the same reason I want my spanners to be made of stainless steel instead of say tin.Quote from: jukk on January 14, 2022, 08:15:35 pmI have. The instability and reboot requirements caused by the incorrectly designed interdependencies between desktop systemd-subsumed components is a huge step backwards for me: right now, desktop Linux systems are way less stable and reliable than they were say a decade ago. Some don't consider that catastrophic, I do.The history ofBIND(ISC name server) is a good example of how this goes on (it does not get much better, people just get used to dealing with the issues, and I don't like it). To this day, there are tons of humans who consider BIND essential to their infrastructure. Yet, their security and bug record is absolutely horrid. Perhaps that sort of catastrophes are irrelevant to you, but they aren't to me.We can do better. Some people, like Devuan developers, are trying to deal with it. Me, I have finite resources, so I try to help make things better where I can. In the meantime, I too will use the tools-made-of-tin (like Ubuntu, Mint, and even proprietary software, even though I don't use Windows at all anymore); but I won't stop trying to show we could do better. If that is "religious zealotry", then I'll gladly be one.Now, Paul (PKTKS) has a particular communications style, that may look like fearmongering and exaggeration. I think it may be just a stylistic or communications or language issue. There is a valid point in there somewhere, but the style makes it look all blown out of proportion. But, when you look at their posts, it's just the style. I've started to treat it like I would if someone had a lisp or a stutter, because Me Fail English Too. (If we ever meet and speak English, I will speak Finnish Rally English, even though most Finns deride it, and I can emulate an American accent somewhat, because it is just more honest and easier to understand for the listener.)It would be nice if he could work on his writing style, but then again, I personally am trying hard to not make so damn long and verbose posts, and failing. While I do try to give others more slack than I require for myself, sometimes frustration makes me fail that too. Perhaps you yourself could consider how to do better, rather than just condescendingly tell others that the world is not perfect and we should just accept it the way it is? You know, simply because we can make it better, even if just a tiny little part at a time. Or at least not call people who try to do that "religious zealots", please.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2022, 09:26:08 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on January 15, 2022, 02:12:02 amI think the pandemic takes a toll and brings out worse sides (I feel tired). I can understand the technical viewpoints, but I have no sympathy for people just throwing hatred around. Of course, now I fell in the same trap here, playing with name calling and foul words. Sorry for that.I think (my persional impression here) the issue with systemd is that it changed the way how smaller distributions dealt with certain components of the system. For better and for worse. I've been using all of the Redhat based systems for 20+ years (and Debian a bit less), so haven't seen much of the distributions having had issues. I haven't dealt with BIND a lot, so cannot comment on that particular issue. For certain there are critical areas in the infrastructure that need a lot more attention and fortunately, we see also companies finally realizing that they have to throw resources at it. Even if you don't admit it, even the smaller distros are dependent on components in the system that are financed and backed by corporations (to begin with, the kernel itself...). The way forward is through organizing and cooperating so that there are resources throughout the free software infrastructure. Big corporations should give more back to the free software world in form of development and helping upstream components. And it will happen, not because they have to, but because they realize it is in their own interest. It is in this whole picture systemd is such a small issue, that my personal opinion is, that it a waste of time throwing energy on discrediting it instead of using that energy on something useful.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2022, 10:02:32 am
content: Aren't there any distros left that avoid systemd?

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2022, 10:11:14 am
content: I think that NA's posts lengths are fine. The insertion of paragraph splits is appreciated. I suspect that you worry about it more than people reading worry about it.Paul's post are good. You read them in a similar way someone like when RMS says something. You pretty much know their stance and that too is appreciated. A critical view and any new info in a bonus.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2022, 10:29:20 am
content: Devuan,devuan.org, is a Debian-following Debian fork without systemd.Quote from: jukk on January 15, 2022, 09:26:08 amNo, it is the centralization (and lack of documentation) for the connected core system components. Horrible design known to be prone to failures. Buggy code, and refusal to acknowledge or fix bugs observed in their code. Compare to Bind, which was a Swiss cheese full of security holes, and is not that much better now.(At one time, they even claimed that the Linux kernel boot parameters are not "kernel property", and stole the DEBUG parameter, making many kernels unbootable because early init system would output so much kernel log data that stuff would just grind to a halt. Their response? "Make the log buffer bigger; we're not going to do any changes on our end because we matter more than the kernel.")Main problems include the addedsingle points of failure, unnecessary complexity and overloading of component purposes and communications channels, and in general, the complete disdain for the tried-and-known-workingUnix philosophyand modular approach that Linux distributions used to have. There is basically no bugfixes or patches outside the core group of developers, and the code quality is pretty horrible. Just download the sources and read them to make up your own mind, though.Now, the main reason end users are not aware of these issues at all, is that whenever a systemd component (not the init service also called systemd, but one of the components maintained under the systemd umbrella, say PolKit, or the dbus daemons) fails, it looks to the end user as if it was the desktop environment or a specific application that failed.It is also the main reason that these developers don't get pressured by those who pay their wages: they have chosen a way to avoid being responsible to end users, and therefore end users do not know –– have no way to know –– exactly who to blame or contact when such problems do occur. I'm a problem-solving junkie, and I dig deep and find these things out. It is very telling that core systemd developers believe that end users should not BE ABLE to contact upstream developers at all, and publicly advocate for such.To do better, we should decouple init systems from desktop buses, privilege escalation/policy management, and so on, and implement them in a modular way.Not only does that make it easier for projects to compete, but the most important side effect is that no longer could subsumed components "hide" their defects, as the modularity itself would force them to expose their issues. Similarly, the protocols and interconnections between currently subsumed components would have to be documented, and then they could be developed further, replacing the current non-externally-reviewed implementations with something more competitive.You could say that my own attitude towards systemd components is similar to my attitude towards stuff manufactured in the Soviet Union: some of it works, some of it doesn't, but overall, the design and management of it all is utterly shit and completely cut off from the actual reality the end-users are dealing with, thanks to the barriers (stopping both criticisms and end-user complaints) these self-appointed developers have managed to set up. The only reason they got there is that they happen to have better social skills and money to pay for community management than those they replaced when their SystemD project started as an init system.(The recurring discussions in various Debian mailing lists and bug reports is especially revealing. It is NOT the technical discussion you'd think: it is just chock full of evasion, social pressure, false claims, and whatnot. Basically a flamewar.)Circling back to the original topic, none of that kind of community manipulation seems apparent at Mint. The agreement is very limited. Unless they do more of such, for example where the partner is someone else than the upstream software developer, then it is time to worry. For now, I'll just keep a lazy eye open on how things progress.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2022, 12:30:33 am
content: I honestly thought this was about the web-based personal accounting program (like Quicken or Banktivity).

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2022, 12:54:53 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on January 15, 2022, 10:02:32 amIn all honesty i don't understand what the big fuss is about with systemd and why people make a big deal out of it? Am I missing something?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2022, 01:18:42 am
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on January 17, 2022, 12:54:53 am

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2022, 03:46:14 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on January 15, 2022, 10:02:32 amAlready posted this around here.. more than once..I check them religiously...Fortunately clever people provide us options. Distros still faithful to *NIXhttps://files.devuan.orghttps://antixlinux.com/https://mxlinux.org/products/http://www.slackware.com/https://voidlinux.org/https://artixlinux.org/index.phphttps://web.obarun.org/index.php?id=1https://alpinelinux.org/downloads/They are all 100% recommended...Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on January 17, 2022, 12:54:53 amBecause it is no longer *NIX .. it is something complete departure from *NIXseveral forums call them POTTERIX and i think it is the best definition...My hunch, and I post it sometimes.. is when thisprocessorhasbeen deployed on all PC hardware it will be impossible to install and useanything besides POTTERIX andpartnersof MS..The fuss is this thing being pushed by force into our lives.. bench... etc2 cents hunch. no rant no hate no nothing..2 cents BLAH!Paul

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2022, 04:05:17 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on January 17, 2022, 03:46:14 pmThis was a deliberate decision. Nobody wanted to turn Linux into Unix. It stands on its own feet.People seem to have romanticized ideas of what Unix was/is. Today there are only a few Unixes left. How compatible are they with original Unix? Even the GNU project's main idea was to move away from Unix (look up what GNU is short for).The ranting about systemd is a few oldies that can't move on from the 80's to 2020. The world moves on.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2022, 04:14:47 pm
content: Quote from: jukk on January 17, 2022, 04:05:17 pmhmm don't think so...Can talk just about myself by I believe this is the common factoramong widespread use of *NIX...I ditched my SCO (*NIX) server circa 93 to deploy a Slackware..A very happy replacement at the time..Did that justbecauseit is *NIX like very well written supported..etc.Bought the CD from PatrckVolk. .. the folk made money with that..gradually several AIX and HP-UX deploys were also replaced... and vanishedThings evolved nicely because RedHat and Debian were very good at time.Both changed.. in that sick thing they are today.they really veered off from what they were..So .. back to what matters.. reliable trusty hardware and infra-structure..WHICH IS NOT by no means.. that POTTERIX thing..and not even thinkable to live w/that MSprocessoron my house...Ditched that by 80 .. by 90s.. could pass the 2000 decades fine..So by 2020s.. we are back to ground zero of dirty cheap tricks...still alternatives TO *NIX really .. not that thing veered of..Paul

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2022, 06:08:31 pm
content: One that I didn't see mentioned is Gentoo, which uses OpenRC, AFAIK anyway - haven't checked it out in quite a while. But it seems to leave the choice to the user - you can either use systemd or OpenRC on Gentoo - so I guess it's still evil.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2022, 06:15:12 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 17, 2022, 06:08:31 pmyeahhhh Gentoo is fine **IF** you do not have invested timeand effort into other "from ground" deploy...I did that along the 2000 quite a lot.. I have my NAS anda lot of infra struct entirely based on LFS forks.. whichcan overtake Gentoo in several aspects..LFS replaces Gentoo with too many advantages...https://www.linuxfromscratch.org/The NAS is a busybox deploy free even from udev stuff...The whole thing boils down in a sustainable predictable wayto deploy and keep things running.. the opposite of the POTTERIX wonderlandwhere programmers change stuff everyday like workers digging a hole..then putting sand back... ..The *NIX bottom line is that you invest a HUGE AMOUNT OF TIME effortand resources in your setup infra structure and having the POTTERIX gooniesmessing with a decade of effort is just UNPRINTABLE HOT LANGUAGE....So *NIX is not "romantic visions modern crappy UIs"is actually a SUSTAINABLE EFFORT of decades..no one in perfect mental health will chang thatjust to modern look UI.. or POTTERIXin parallell modern xytttNewbies which have not invested a decade keeping their stuffhave no clue what this is all about...Money time and effort invested is not romantic...you see.. I could leverage a 90s SCO into a 93 Slackware perfectly fine..as I do today...cause I have not being held hostage of some squizoid OS..Paul

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2022, 08:26:01 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on January 17, 2022, 03:46:14 pmThanks Paul. Looks like there are a few more than I would have thought.As much as I hate systemd in principle though, Ireallyhate sudo in practice. Maybe I'm showing my age.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2022, 11:46:58 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on January 17, 2022, 03:46:14 pmThat's not necessarily a bad thing?

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2022, 01:12:08 pm
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on January 17, 2022, 11:46:58 pm*************************************************YES and NO.*************************************************YES...For my 6y old nephew is a bless.. He can power up his doom gameMINT machine and doeverything himselfAmazingly fast hememorized the icons toupgrade linuxand play his games..I am very happy seeing him fussing around...Obviously when anything just F*** he press theUNCLE PAAAAAAULbutton*************************************************NO for anything other than a KIOSK orthe press button machine for a 6y old kid...Why?... Well ... Iwilltry to be short... ..- Since the real *NIX kernel from version 2.6x moved the device managementfrom /proc to /sys (to allow all the crazy USB gizmos attach) things gotweird..Managing devices like network links complex interfaces and disks withalso a complex file system hierarchy and other critical pieces of a realinfra struct. is not trivial. In particular usingsecurity mechanisms and proper system daemons..UNIX traditionally always had a 100% proof init logic to handle this...Decades of professional managed tools for sys adminThe advent os SYSFS (managed by udev) caused 2 things:- for my 6y old nephew a bless he can just see things popping..and working (like pen wifi..)- for any other sys admin a total nightmare ...Setting up a complex network with several attached interfaces andmounting a dozen file systems became really complex with udev..the rules are insanely arcane and things can go really adhoc bad..Necessary to understand that UDEV has been INTEGRATED into systemdamong other several dozens critical tools.. (like DNS resolver, disk tools..etc)UNLIKE traditional safe and methodic configurable (by sys admin) systemdbecame a panacea of a messy bloated stuff pile together.. exposed via SYSFSSo..howevereven though I am very happy to see my 6y nephew happy with his doommachine.. (which I will just overwrite when he calls UNCLE PAAAAULLL )I will never ever run such a messy systemd thing on my servers...*************************************************Like Android,, ChromeBooks..it has a niche.. the kiddo loves it..But... Not on my bench.. or any serious machine...Paul

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2022, 09:09:58 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on January 18, 2022, 01:12:08 pmWell sure... but here you were talking about MINT to begin with. And I personally wouldn't consider putting MINT on any "serious machine" myself, so...

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2022, 05:50:53 am
content: None of my Linux machines are "serious". The laptops and desktop ones all boot up with Tux rolling its eyes like its last herring was laced with crack.And yet, those are miles more "serious" than the Linux appliances like routers I've looked at. Their "firmware" looks like the integrator themselves was on crack when they put that shit together.I don't think 'serious' is a word one can accurately use when talking about computers anymore, unless it refers to money, as in 'this cost serious money'.