Suggestion new soldering iron - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Bibuz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 11:05:50 pm
content: Hi to everybody,i just read many threads, but I have a lot of confusion.I recently decided to start repairing some cell phone boards, as a hobby, it's not a job.Until now I used an old Chinese soldering station, but the time has come to change it.being just a hobby for the moment, I would like to spend as little as possible, and buy a soldering iron that will still allow me to do this job, that has tips of the right size to do these microsoldering jobs.I've always read advice for semi-professional or professional stations , and at the moment I can't afford it. (especially because here in Italy they cost more than in other countries)does anyone have any model to recommend?Thanks ti everybody

author: unknownparticle
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2020, 03:06:43 pm
content: OMG, get ready for the tidal wave of advice on this one!So, I sympathise with your limited budget, been there, got the T shirt! I finally got my dream unit, a Metcal last year but upto then I used a good little budget unit called a Precision Gold A55KG. It was sold by an electronics company here in the UK called Maplin, they went bust last year and I don't thing it's available anymore, although I could be wrong there.However, if you're quick, there is an as new, unused one on ebay right now for £29.99,https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Precision-GOLD-60W-Professional-LCD-Soldering-Iron-Station-ESD-Protection-A55KJ/153871811845?hash=item23d3798505:g:STcAAOSwoP1edO6eIt's a full soldering station with upto 3 preset temps and digital readout etc. I've been pleased with mine and it's been without any problems for over 5 years. The tips are still available new, in various types.If you do go for the Precision Gold and the seller won't send to Italy, you can have it sent to me, I'm in the UK, and I'll ship it to you, if that helps.Another to consider is the TS100, google that there is loads of info on it, but it is quite a bit more expensive.

author: BlackICE
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2020, 06:40:59 am
content: Hakko T12 station from China with a few safety mods it works well for the price, at least in the USA about 50 to $70.

author: unknownparticle
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2020, 03:50:35 pm
content: Just discovered that the Precision Gold station I mentioned above is actually made by Tenma and is still a current product. Price is alot higher than the one I linked to above on ebay though.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 12:47:50 pm
content: The "Precision Gold" looks like another Hakko 888/936 clone, nothing special there at all. There are now probably 100 different Chinese stations out there that copy that handpiece and heater design.

author: chetman
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 20, 2020, 08:36:02 pm
content: I recommend the JBC BT-2BWA station to you, you can use the t245 or t210 handle for repairs is a fantastic matter of precision, the station will serve for many years

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2020, 08:42:44 pm
content: Quote from: unknownparticle on March 27, 2020, 03:50:35 pmNo, it's made by some Chinese company. Tenma is just a house brand, as Precision Gold was.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2020, 08:22:48 pm
content: Quote from: Bibuz on March 23, 2020, 11:05:50 pmNonsense. Hakko, one of the top brands, is actually the cheapest in Europe from an Italian dealer. Forum members from all over Europe routinely buy from there.https://www.batterfly.com/shop/en/hakko

author: ercapoccia
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 05:56:42 am
content: I'll get a T12 station. I use a genuine hakko 951 with both the micro and standard pencil but it is probably too expensive for your need. Get one of the many cheap station with the new style tips, please avoid hakko clones.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 08:44:14 pm
content: ^Most all the T12 clones, whether Hakko knockoff or "ZX-2000", are suspect. Running a T12 tip properly takes more than a guy who can program a microcontroller.If you want a T12 station that is actually good, I think you should probably buy the actual Hakko. Or you are probably getting the shaft. It's very easy to make a station that will run a T12 tip and be loaded with features then to sell it for cheap. It's not trivial to drive a T12 tip correctly, though.Your average cheap T12 clone is a real step backwards in performance in many important ways, compared to a quality old-school iron like an Ersa or a Hakko 888.

author: karamba
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2020, 04:11:16 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 18, 2020, 08:44:14 pmAny hard numbers to substantiate that claim ? What's a big deal to drive a T12 tip ? If you want to exactly clone Hakko set an ampermeter between the solder and the station and see how it react to the temperature change. However I think anyone who can program a controller could do much better. In fact as far as I know original Hekko 951 does not make a distinction between tips despite 0.2mm conical tip obviously behaves differently that a 5mm chisel.Caveat: Apparently there is something I do not know.

author: karamba
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2020, 04:34:21 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 24, 2020, 04:22:45 pmIs it the same tip ? As far as I know TS80 uses some insanely expensive tips and are very different from t12.Plus no amount of flushing make it as powerful as a T12 iron original or clone no matter which power supply you use.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2020, 04:58:02 pm
content: Before I knew it, I have accumulated 3x T12 clones, and 1 TS100. Apart from the cheap T12 Chinese tips, I have accumulated quite a bit of original 2nd hand Hakko tips from taobao. From the 936 experience, the quality of original and clone tips are quite a lot of difference. One T12 can go up to red hot 850C, another is a popular KSGER station, the remaining one is a order filler that I got it almost for free. It turns up, the almost free one has the standard T12 5 wire handler. But inside the handler, the Reed sensor and thermistor were wrongly swapped and maybe that was why it was almost free. The KSGER only has 4 wire, there is a Reed sensor but no thermistor, yet it is a temperature controlled set. The 850 set only has 2 wires, straight to the 8.2ohm heating element of the T12, yet it can control temperature. I have made adaptors so that a common 4 wire handler can be used for all 3 stations without error, but I have no time to test their temperature accuracy yet. Taobao is selling a t12 4 wire handler that allow easy replacement of tip. No screw cap needed, just push in or pull out to replace the tips.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2020, 05:57:58 pm
content: Be wary of micro style irons such as the TS80 and TS100.They seemingly heat fast but they are smaller in mass and power delivery. The TS80 iron is only 18W and unmodified has a 300C/570F heat time of 22 seconds which is worse than Hakko!Metcal, Pace and JBC all heat up in under 10 secs (many tips half that speed) and have much more mass on the tips and smaller working distance so better performance and easier to use. You would think the TS80/100 is purpose built for mini/micro smd soldering but it doesn't compare.Design wise having connectors at the end of a tool and especially using interfaces like USB will not be reliable long term. Same goes for cheap oled dislays. When using a soldering iron on the bench you will also want a decent stand, especially one that can put the iron to sleep quickly so you aren't inhaling lead free flux fumes constantly.There's no real technical reason why you need to build the controller into the handle as it still requires a power source. Monitoring the iron while soldering is next to impossible and ergonomics go way down while doing this as well.So please consider these as a novelty and what the trade offs are to avoid disappointment. No power supply unless you pay for it, shitty stand, low power, not as portable or as durable as you would think.I would recommend the T12 clones but they aren't particularly high quality either, built cheap with dodgy smps supplies, no decent stand and other quirks (before getting into ethical discussions). When it comes to Hakko FX951/T12 or not - that would be get the Pace ADS200 instead and say goodbye to plastic.

author: ercapoccia
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2020, 07:52:54 pm
content: T12 and T15 are exactly the same tips for different market. In europe we have the T15. 936 and clones use the 900M series tips very similar to the T18 of the Hakko 888. IMHO you can't really compare a TS100 with a proper station like the FX951. For professional (if you get paid using it) money difference is irrelevant and TS100/TS80 with the dinky connection are just hobby grade (toys) in my eyes.Very handy on the field but i'll never use it on the bench.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2020, 07:53:01 pm
content: Quote from: karamba on May 24, 2020, 04:11:16 pmThe T12 tip is a compromise. It creates an error from heater-sensor coupling. The heater directly heats the temperature sensor. Then the sensor heats the base of the tip. This creates a sag in the temperature control. Say the tip is not touching anything but air. As the tip gets close to the float point, it shuts off early. Then it goes on/off until the temp very gradually drifts up to the floating set point. Now, otoh, if the tip is under a thermal load, it will be "held down" and never reach the floating set point. The more the load, the more it will sag.So every asshole who can program a microcontroller can get a reading off the T12 tip and switch power to said tip. But they are not necessarily doing anything to compensate for this heater-sensor coupling error. I have 2 T12 clones, one has an Atmel micro in there. The other is all analog. They both exhibit this heater-sensor coupling error and resulting sag. My 888 spanks these clones for my personal production soldering needs for this reason.I have done actual testing. I dunno if I can find the thread. It's probably from summer/fall of 2018. I used a soldering iron temp tester and a very repeatable test setup for comparison. Additionally, I observed the switch behavior on a scope. It's very obvious and easy to observe the problem when you are aware of it and have the right test equipment and knowhow.The STM32 clones, they require a more accomplished embedded programmer to do that. But that doesn't mean this programmer know there is even anything to improve/fix, to begin with. This is physics, not programming. I was late the the Unisolder project and the Blackjack Solderingwerks web blogs/buzz, but when I got around to reading about them, there is nothing in there to suggest these guys were even aware of this issue. Let alone any spec of evidence that they attempted to address it.

author: karamba
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2020, 08:16:58 pm
content: Of course the azzhole STM32 programmer knows about it. Why else would they create separate profiles for different tips, something even the original Hakko does not have ?

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2020, 08:23:58 pm
content: ^Sure, he might have. It would be easy to observe with a scope and a temp tester. I don't believe it until I see it, personally. I give an exemption to PACE ADS. I am satisfied by the user data and the 14 bit ADC in there, that their engineers addressed this issue.* As far as I know, the KSGER is made by a 28 yr old in his basement, and I don't expect much TBH. I would be pleasantly surprised to find out otherwise, but I wouldn't assume. At the end of the day, people will buy it and be happy with it (none-the-wise, but they're happy**), regardless, so long as it has a cool display and a fancy microcontroller. For the simple reason I have never come across any info about this unique feature/problem of a cartridge tip other than what I have learned and observed and put out there by myself, but I've seen many diy controller projects and used multiple T12 clones which do not correct for this, makes me not highly confident that the KSGER actually does correction. Yeah, it costs a bit more but you do get a fancier UI with more features. So it might be worth it to some folks whether it does this or not. In a comparison game, it might work better than your old iron, still.QuoteOh, the precursor of the 951 did this. Each tip had a barcode label on it. The station read the barcode to adjust the temp control algorithm. They aren't made anymore, but they're still around. They cost quite a bit more than the modern 951, though.*The solution is resolution. And low noise. In order to calculate or cross-reference the amount of error, you need to capture a very tiny delta in high resolution/accuracy.**Case in point, the Bakon clone using the atmel micro, that was highly recommended on the forum at the time, by at least one very vocal member stating that it made any non-cartridge iron obsolete... because it was, to him, better at everything. I have to admit, it works very well for the money. Probably one of the best $30 stations I have used. But the sag was noticeable to me in my own work. Most people who buy a sub 50 dollar clone have never bought the real deal of any iron to compare it to. It's likely he compared this T12 clone to T18 clones; here, in this price bracket, it shines. It performs very well. The thing with T18 clones is not the electronics/algorithm. That's a high school project. The materials make the difference in a T18 clone, and a $30 T18 clone is garbage. Even if you replace the heater, it's still garbage. The two most important bits on the genuine Hakko 888 are the handpiece itself, and the psu. The materials/hardware is not as important in a T12 clone, because so much is in the tip, itself. The difference in a T12 clone is the electronics design and software, and that is not obvious to a casual user, esp if they have nothing to compare it to, or to bother scoping and testing it.Even if you are aware of it and go about to correct for it, it's not a black and white thing. You can never reach perfection. You're limited by bandwidth, noise, and ADC resolution. The job here is to optimize as best as possible. It's not a box that you check and it's done. It's a challenge and some will do it better than others. An 8 bit micro can potentially do this better than an STM32, depending on the skills and knowledge and application of the guy on the keyboard. This is a case where you want high resolution and high frequency response, and those two things are counter to each other.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 01:46:20 am
content: https://youtu.be/BxE-ti-APLEThere is no temperature sensor in the tip from the video. From the 3 stations I have, one is using NTC(5 wire controller) to do its temperature sensing. One(4 wire controller) has a wire connection from the front shell of the tip back to the controller, and another is just 2 wire connection.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 02:09:05 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on May 25, 2020, 01:46:20 amIn the T12 tip the heater and the sensor are one and the same. If you remove the earth connection, it's only 2 connections. There's a heater coil in there. The other side of the heater coil is attached to a dissimilar metal alloy for the return path. This creates a thermocouple for sensing the temperature. The heater must momentarily be turned off in order to get a temp reading. Since the junction is attached to one end of the heater coil, this is what creates the error. The read will be skewed towards the temp of the heater rather than the true temp of the tip.In a non-cartridge iron, the sensor is insulated from the heater. The sensor is coupled only to the tip. This gives a way more accurate reading of tip temp. The cartridge style creates an additional sag unless it is corrected.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 02:16:12 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 25, 2020, 12:45:39 amNot sure what thermocouples JBC uses but the Pace ADS200 carts use k type in series with the heater. Not that I have tried it yet (haven't had to work on a live circuit recently), but earth/ground lifting should work if you need that as well (with the obvious ESD and safety caveats).Having a separate iron to work on one device may be required in your case but most people will buy the TS80 on peoples performance recommendation or as a first temp adjustable iron and don't realize they are compromising on 40-100 watts of power over most other real temp controlled stations on the market (including Chinese ones of course). That combined with the other things I mentioned doesn't make it a serious contender, even in the world of micro irons it's low powered. Novelty wise it scores maximum points though heheh.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 09:58:48 am
content: Quote from: Shock on May 24, 2020, 05:57:58 pmRather to my surprise, my TS100 has become my 'daily driver'. I can see that the TS80 is probably underpowered (at least on paper, I haven't tried one). But the TS100 kicks out 65W at 24V. Ralim's latest firmware seems to have the PID tuned pretty well now. I like the functions, incredibly (ok, very) fast warmup, various standby modes, boost function, switchable display modes, etc. ... and the fact that I can seamlessly swap it over to a 24V drill battery.I agree wholeheartedly with your criticisms though, it takes work. I had to mod a grounded 19V Lenovo laptop brick to 24V, sort out tip grounding, fit a soft silicone lead and decent plugs, and modify a decent stand to take it. If you jump through these hoops, the end result is very pleasing though. Many (most?) people won't be prepared to go to the effort though.

author: LeonR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 08:53:29 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on May 25, 2020, 09:58:48 am...or you can just grab a 24V 5A power supply with 5.5x2.5mm barrel jack and just piggyback with some velcro straps a wire for grounding. I got this for mine:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32848901250.htmlIt's not the easiest cable to work with on a daily basis due to some stiffness, but for once/twice a week, 20 minutes soldering sessions it works just fine.

author: karamba
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 11:57:56 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 25, 2020, 02:54:44 amNaively I would think that 30 seconds of constant soldering in unacceptable for anything but bare copper wires and such.