20 years old pick and place machine JUKI 750 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Siriusx86
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 05, 2021, 07:51:59 pm
content: Hello guys,I use mechatronika M50 PNP machine which has only one head and one camera machine (just for fiducial marks). Component alignment is done by mechanical jaw (chips) during fly or "calibrated square" for qfn, ICs... It is very simple mechanic machine with no vision. My typical production run is around 80 - 200 panels per month and max 15 different boards. I have started to use 0402 components recently and the mis-pick rate is around 50% so I reach the limit of the machine and it is time for upgrade.Unfortunately, I don't have the budget for new machine so I am looking for the second hand inline machine in Europe. I have found some old DOS based machines like Juki 750 or Samsung Topaz. My question is if it make sense to buy 20 years old DOS machine ? Do you still using them or do you have any experience with Juki ke750 ? What is your opinion and experience with second hand machines ?Also I have found that in Europe is widely available old Siemens siplace (sx2 80 s15 s20 f5 ...) but these machines are so big - 2.6m and take a lot of floor space.What I really don't want is some new shiny light (250kg ) machine with not finished software if you know what I mean....Thank you

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2021, 09:40:13 am
content: Old machines if they meet your spec, sure but choose wisely. The Juki may be a bad choice I think those models are basically scrap. However Philips Topaz/emerald or their Yamaha equivalents should be fine, there are still engineers servicing them and factories running multiples of them. Same I think is true of Samsung CP40/45 but of course this will only be true for so long. I think you might find some of them don't exactly have software as amazing as you might expect although it should be functional and stable. Quad slightly more tricky because they don't really exist anymore, many of there others that vanished at least merged with the remaining players whereas quad is some weird mix of goppm and its spiritual successor Mirae.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2021, 11:33:20 pm
content: Yeah I had bad luck with Juki 740/760s for my application which was mostly 0402s (I have a Juki PTF if anyone needs one). I do recommend Yamaha/Assembleon and Samsungs (have a cp65 in middle of refurbishing). I use old monster Fujis as I need alot more speed and love them to death. I have heard Siemens aren't that great but I have never used one. I think parts were more expensive. My Fuji repairman likes Panasonics as well. We argue between models. This is just poetry in motion:Looks better in person

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2021, 02:34:44 am
content: I just did this. I got a Philips CSM84 in 2007, it has 3 nozzles with centering jaws, teach camera and a "beam sensor" essentially a one-pixel camera to find the fiducials. Controller is basically a PC XT on a huge board with static RAM and EPROMS, no disk. It worked very well, up to its capabilities, but couldn't handle fine-pitch parts. So, an upgrade was in order.I went to an auction and looked at a Samsung CP45 and fell in love! But, it went out of my price range.A while later an auction came up about 900 miles away, and I bid sight unseen on a Quad QSA-30A, it was the best looking machine in the auction.I got it shipped, and it powered up right away, but then boards started failing. It turns out it had not been run since about 2014. I went through a BUNCH of trouble getting things fixed, but since it was based on a Samsung machine (same basic controller, software and mechanicals as the Samsung CP30) spare parts are quiter plentiful (and affordable!) in the far east. So, I got the thing all fixed up, and it runs quite well, now. The software needed some getting used to, and the manuals are exceptionally bad. But, a guy who did the training at the factory heloped me a bunch.So, my experience might not be the best, but I am happy with that I did. Now that I understand the thing, I can program it, it is WAY more capable than my old machine, and has a LOT of great features. My old machine would just stop after a few mispicks, and you had to correct the problem before it would complete the board. The Quad gives up after a few errors on the same part, finishes the rest of the board, and then remembers what parts were skipped. You reach in and fix the feeders, etc. and then hit two buttons, and it just places THOSE parts. That, right there, is just brilliant! The old machine just used the centering jaws, which centered most parts reasonably well. But, parts that were not the right aspect ratio were NOT well-centered, and there was NO WAY to fix that. So, an SOIC-16 would be fine, but a small part that was essentially square would not center in one direction.The Quad uses line-scan cameras on each nozzle to take "shadow" pictures of the parts to align rotation and center the parts. The software has a bunch of settings for each package type to set limits for part acceptance, height to view the part at, etc. The setup is a bit more complicated, but it can center just about ANY shape part. It also has Z motors to place the part just on the board instead of slamming them down with spring-loaded nozzles. It also has automatic nozzle exchange. So, all in all, a WAY more sophisticated machine.It runs Windows 95, so not quite DOS, but not a whole lot newer, either. That doesn't bother me at all. I'm not browsing the web with this, it is a machine controller. I did immediately clone the old hard drive and replace with a new (old stock) drive.So, I am very positive on getting an old machine, but you might want to get one that has not been sitting for years collecting dust. But, make sure parts and accessories are widely available. I got just the machine, and had to get all the accessories like feeders and vibratory feeder on eBay, etc. I had to make a waffle tray holder. I've done two runs of boards (4 sides) and it ran very well. No more failures since October.Jon

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2021, 11:50:53 pm
content: Quote from: Reckless on January 06, 2021, 11:33:20 pmIs this a Minesweeper game?

author: Siriusx86
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 07:28:50 pm
content: Thanks a lot for your advice guys. I was not sure about Juki 750 so I wanted to ask for your opinion. I am keeping hunting for Samsung cp45 or SM320 and Philips or Assembleon GEM series. I know that I will have to make some refurbishing, cleaning and invest extra time and money to old machine, but once it is done I will have reliable machine.The Fuji CP642 is very impressive

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 08:12:39 pm
content: Please, explain why the LEDs are installed in such a strange order?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 09:57:38 pm
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on January 10, 2021, 08:12:39 pmProbably just random output from the CAD/CAM system. My CAD program sometimes does the same, the order of placement in the pick and place file is just a jumble. It may have something to do with how the parts were cut and pasted when the board was designed.Jon

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2021, 01:25:22 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on January 10, 2021, 09:57:38 pmIs it wise to leave it like this? Or there is no possibility, or it is difficult to fix so that there are fewer movements?I'm sorry, I've never participated in mass production, this is my inquisitive interest.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2021, 03:12:54 pm
content: As long as the time to move to the next PnP "head" is smaller then the time to move the PCB under the "head", there is no reason for further "optimisation". As it is, the placement is already pretty much optimised, just not in a way intuitive to humans. The PCB is rarely moved more then one LED distance.On top of that I suspect it is done very deliberate in this way to prevent a buildup of vibration in the machine.If for example a long row of LED's is placed and the timing of the placemenst (depending on the distance) is near a resonance frequency of the machine then the resonance will build up and this results in less accurate placement. If however, the machine often switches between "X-movement" and "Y-movement", then each axis only moves in short bursts and then stands still for some time, and vibrations are dampened out.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2021, 04:00:10 pm
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on January 10, 2021, 08:12:39 pmI think it's the result of a very simple "move to nearest free location" optimisation. For a matrix I'd have thought a serpentine raster would be marginally quicker, but the difference is probably negligible in practice