Prisma elevator door controller, damaged psu, need identify components[SOLVED] - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: PiotrMisiuna
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2024, 10:57:09 pm
content: Could not locate any photos of the PCB, attaching best I could make, maybe will help someone else.There is several versions of the box but I don't believe they will differ much in layout, especially on the primary side of the psu.Killed by a drop of water, I did some reverse engineering, but with my low experience I don't believe I can make it without help.Components on the schematic marked in red are the damaged ones.Seams obvious that all the carnage was caused by arc under the C37.I hope that blown components broke the circuit before melting the transformer, it does not appear to me melted.Not sure how to determine the value of the Z7 zener diode...list of components I wish to find markings for:R114Q32Z7R85U10

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2024, 11:30:45 pm
content: UC3842?https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/uc3842.pdf

author: Harry_22
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 06:05:34 am
content: Well, finally! One person who got together and redrew the circuit from the PCB.It will be a pleasure to help you!I'll take a look a little later.

author: Harry_22
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 10:42:21 pm
content: Hi!Could you carefully clean R114 and try to read the color code.Also make a good photo of Q32, U10 area.

author: PiotrMisiuna
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2024, 04:20:35 am
content: R114 has the bands visible on the other side but I think the paint pealed off due to temperature and what's left is just a discolored substrate.

author: Harry_22
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2024, 05:07:45 pm
content: Check Z13, Z14 for short and open.I don't like that the base Q32 is connected only Z14.Please measure C56.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2024, 05:23:51 pm
content: Q32 doesn't make any sense to me, nor does the feedback circuit involving the optocoupler.

author: PiotrMisiuna
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2024, 07:18:29 pm
content: Z13 and Z14 open circuit, tested out of circuit.R112 - 10K,C56 - 2,4nFdid some edits following your orderthird attachment is just a back lit photo of the pcb, maybe useful.

author: PiotrMisiuna
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2024, 07:21:39 pm
content: Did some corrections to the schematic.As to the optocouppler, I believe it is just a voltage sense for a controller. Tracks disappear under the row of sockets and run deep into secondary side.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2024, 08:21:06 pm
content: The Vcc pin needs to charge up to 16V before the IC starts pulsing the MOSFET. I don't see any path for this charging current.Z7 must be a Schottky diode.Why is the base of BC807 grounded?

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2024, 08:54:09 pm
content: Weird circuitry around Q32.Normally Vcc is directy feed from HV (Yeah, 300V++) through a 200K-1M resistor.This greatly limits the current, so the Vcc capacitor charges slowly.When reachingthe threshold voltage the PWM IC will turn on, pulsing the driving transistor, and start feeding itself though the auxiliary winding.

author: Grandchuck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2024, 09:01:23 pm
content: Did U10 pop part of its top off?

author: PiotrMisiuna
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2024, 10:04:35 pm
content: U10 did popped a piece of it.More corrections. it gets better once the shorts get removed. BC807 was also shorted

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2024, 10:22:06 pm
content: Hello PiotrMisiuna,Quote from: PiotrMisiuna on December 04, 2024, 10:04:35 pmNice holes in U10 & Q32 : 'magic smoke' generatorsYour latest schematic starts to match with the UC3842 reference design (figure 8-2)Opto on the right of your schematic is for the SMPS feedback : you should also find aTL431in that area.Opto on the left of your schematic is probably for checking the mains presence or grabbing 50/60 Hz synchronization ticks : is it connected to the Fujitsu µC located on the far right side of the PCB ?

author: PiotrMisiuna
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2024, 11:00:02 pm
content: Yes, the opto on the left goes to the large Fujitsu. Above it there is a motorola Eprom. There is also a MAX 232 next to the DE9 port. There is really not that much stuff on this board, and the service guys ask long waiting time and a small fortune for the replacement.

author: Harry_22
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2024, 03:14:09 pm
content: The oscillator frequency according to ST datasheet is around 90kHz.Two chips are currently under consideration:UC3842B max 100% Duty Cycle/ 90kHz drive operation frequencyUC3844B max 50% Duty Cycle/ 45kHz drive operation frequency

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2024, 05:12:36 pm
content: Quote from: PiotrMisiuna on December 04, 2024, 07:18:29 pmMight be high voltage zeners (tens of volts), even if one junction drop should be found in one way : any marking on them ?Package is known as 'melf'https://services.taiwansemi.com/storage/resources/datasheet/ZM4728A%20SERIES_E2301.pdfand wattage seems to be 1Whttps://www.mouser.fr/c/semiconductors/discrete-semiconductors/diodes-rectifiers/zener-diodes/?mounting%20style=SMD%2FSMT&package%20%2F%20case=MELFCheck if your parts size correspond to a 1 W zener in melf package.The circuit around Q32, Z13 and Z14 needs more attention/refinement, because it goes beyond the application note.On thispage:- Figure 5 gives interesting information about the required voltage to power the UC3842, but this will be useful later.- Figure 6 explains how most SMPS controllers like the UC3842 are powered : startup power comes from the mains DC rail (about 324 VDC in Europe) via 'Rin'. Once running, an auxiliary winding 'Waux' provides power through D1.Let's go back to your latest schematic.The 'aux winding' is present and the main power for U10 comes from D12, and this seems OK.R114 is probably 'Rin' and even if the paint is peeled off, the value you measured (100 k) is probably correct, because the UC3842 asks for at least 1 mA to wake up.Additionnal information : at 100k, the current is around 3.1 to 3.2 mA, which is more than enough to wake up the PWM controller.R114 seems to be a 2W resistor. However, it is wise to replace the part with a new one.Quote from: Harry_22 on December 05, 2024, 03:14:09 pmYou are right, and to solve the riddle, the transformer ratio and primary inductance is probably required

author: Harry_22
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2024, 09:52:06 pm
content: Please check the both zener connection.PSSeems they are the same 18-20V to get 17.3-19.3 start at Vcc.

author: PiotrMisiuna
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2024, 10:25:56 pm
content: yes, you are correct. I need to stop making this edits at 1:00am.as to the transformer, it has a sticker, no meaningful results in the search engines thou.markings at the top just refer to the type of the core.

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2024, 10:38:02 pm
content: Quote from: PiotrMisiuna on December 05, 2024, 10:25:56 pmYes it is for sure a custom made part and we won't find any datasheet.If we really need to know the transformers' ratio and primary inductance to validate the PWM controller reference, those intrinsic parameters have to be measured...

author: Harry_22
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2024, 10:45:09 pm
content: Some more thoughts.There is no point in installing Q32 just to start the controller.Most likely something else is being powered there, take a look.If transistor Q32 is shorted on all pins then it is most likely a MOSFET.Resistor R114 is marked with the first brown stripe, please check it. I set it to 100k but when applying high tension it will not burn like that. Looks like he's about 10 kilos.

author: Harry_22
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 06:44:44 pm
content: I corrected the circuit digram.Due wake up resistor is replaced here by stabilized power supply on Q32 the controller should be with lower start threshold i.e.UC3843 orUC3845.Seems all the zener diodes Z1,Z4, Z7, Z13 and Z14 are the same.

author: PiotrMisiuna
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 09:48:46 am
content: I'm ordering the parts. it will take a while, Cyprus shipping is like 3 times the usual. I'll share results as soon as possible.

author: Harry_22
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 11:02:32 am
content: Quote from: PiotrMisiuna on December 08, 2024, 09:48:46 amYes, life is't easy for you

author: Greybeard
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 01:13:46 pm
content: Don't forget to replace the blue bulged electrolytic cap.

author: Harry_22
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 02:00:15 pm
content: Zeners can be 13 volts. This is enough to start the controller (Vcc=9V max).The main thing is that after start-up Vcc voltage rises slightly (up to 10-11 volts) and turns off Q32.

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 08:56:32 pm
content: Buy also a replacement for R114 (100 k).10 k seems pretty low (lead to a start current of I = 31 mA)If the controller does not start with 100 k, you can still try 10 k in a second attempt.

author: Harry_22
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 09:48:04 pm
content: 100k resistor will not burn out as much as 10k in case of Q32 short.

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 10:09:32 pm
content: Quote from: Harry_22 on December 08, 2024, 09:48:04 pmI already noticed your explanation above.Let me just allow to have different opinion than yours.

author: Poroit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 05:40:24 am
content: G'day All,I am not sure if the attached is a help or a hinderance but it contains similar components to the damaged PSU.I have seen similar damaged components in these as well.I do not have a schematic.

author: Harry_22
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 10:42:54 am
content: Quote from: Poroit on December 09, 2024, 05:40:24 amHi Poroit!Yes, yours PSU is mostly similar.PFC provides its own Vcc supply. That is why low power start-up UCx845 is used there.Also 50% duty cycle is usually used with the high power transformer.

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 09:20:45 pm
content: Hello Poroit,Quote from: Poroit on December 09, 2024, 05:40:24 amCan you confirm that the document you provided shows an elevator door controller from Prisma ?

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 09:34:29 pm
content: About Z14 (Vz = 11 V in the latest schematic)@PiotrMisiuna Any marking on the zeners ?Minimum PWM controller startup voltage depends on IC reference :UC3842 & UC3844 : 16 VDC : Z14 value is underrated, PWM controller will not startUC3843 & UC3845 : 8,4 VDC : Z14 value is OKInteresting sentence in chapter '7.3.5 Undervoltage Lockout' of the datasheet :During normal circuit operation, VCC is developed from auxiliary winding NA with DBIASand CVCC. At start-up, however, CVCC must be charged to 16 V (*) through RSTART. With a start-up current of 1 mA,RSTART can be as large as 100 kΩ and still charge CVCC when VAC = 90 V RMS (low line). Power dissipation inRSTART is then be less than 350 mW even under high line (VAC= 130 V RMS) conditions.(*) Actual minimal startup voltage depends on IC model, see above.Reminder: as PiotrMisiuna is located in Europe, VAC = 240 V RMS @ 50Hz (hence DC rail voltage = 339 VDC)

author: Poroit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2024, 05:36:16 am
content: G'day timeandfrequency,Unfortunately not.It is an SMPS from a 25 year old Air Data Test Set.

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2024, 09:47:25 am
content: Quote from: Poroit on December 10, 2024, 05:36:16 amThanks Poroit for this information.TheseUCx84x switchershave numerous applications and were used in many different designs.This thread is about the repair of a 'Prisma elevator door controller'.Unfortunately, the board you showed can not really be used as reference to identify the fried parts we have on that elevator controller.

author: PiotrMisiuna
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2025, 08:42:28 pm
content: I believe the repair is successful. Powered up on the workbench effected in one of LED lights going red and some relays going click. Now I will pass it and wait for feedback from the elevator technician.

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2025, 10:58:08 am
content: That's good news.Keep us updated.If possible, post again the latest version of the schematics, with the actual parts values/references you used to repair the board.

author: PiotrMisiuna
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 07:28:55 pm
content: Ok, controller installed. I didn't expect it to be placed in such idiotic place. Right above the door with all the connectors facing upwards. Wash the floor one level up and spill more water..... you know. Elevator guy wasn't to happy, but we installed it, tested and it works as supposed to. I found a manual in the shaft so I got it scanned. I skipped introduction and table of contents. Attached.schematic I followed is like in this responsehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/prisma-elevator-door-controller-damaged-psu-need-identify-components/msg5739749/#msg5739749

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 09:29:04 pm
content: Hello PiotrMisiuna,Great to hear that the elevator door is now fully functionnal.Thanks for the documentation.You may now edit the title of this thread by adding the word that everyone wants to see in the repair section of the forum : ''The elevator guy wasn't too happy.For him, it's of course easier to litter the defective assembly and install a brand new one, problem solved.I would say that for sustainability reasons, we will probably need to make more 'component level' repairs in the future. With more and more boards that are fully populated with SMD parts, it's not an easy challenge. And without any schematic as for your elevator door board, it is even more demanding.I didn't expect it to be placed in such idiotic place. Right above the door with all the connectors facing upwards. Wash the floor one level up and spill more water..... you know.Well, at a certain level of nonsense, you can't exclude that the board was strategically installed at this location so that water spilling from the above floor just drops at the right place to fry the assembly. You mentionned in an earlier post that the cost of a replacement board was really high. No real need to look anyware else.To avoid future hassle, consider protecting the electronic assembly with a plastic bag hold by some duct tape. Using amylar/plastic sheetto build a small roof above the assembly might be another solution. Stick the plastic sheet with strongepoxy glue.

author: PiotrMisiuna
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 09:53:44 pm
content: Elevator guy wasn't too happy because I got access to the shaft and was able to clean up a bit and add some cover to the box. I asked him to grant me some long term privileges but he was visually uncomfortable with that conversation.As to cost of the thing, I don't think it makes any difference to him if it is replaced or fixed, they don't make money on selling stuff. I think it would be much more difficult to convince him to install repaired item If they did.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 07:31:13 am
content: I would consider using conformal coating to protect the board. In Europe something like Plastic 70. Mask all connectors and do a few layers (I bake them in a 70 degree oven for an hour between layers).One of the possible reasons the elevator guy was not happy is that elevator parts typically have safety functionality. Door controllers are usually listed under safety components. While not as important sounding as speed governor (the weird small wheel in the elevator machine room) - or the safety breaks - door malfunctions were responsible for a few elevator accidents.For example, a door controller may limit the current to the motor to avoid pinching (which may have been taken out of calibration). May signal to the controller that it is safe to travel if the door is closed. May have protection timers if the door doesn't close/open in time. Sense if something is stuck in the door (like the hand of a small child or the leash of a dog) Etc.In elevators, usually there is more than 1 safety - but using a repaired board whose safety features were not tested may pose a risk and may be an insurance liability.There are few elevator accidents. See:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_elevator_accidentsBTW Even white goods: whenever you repair a white good (e.g. a dishwasher) keep in mind the possible "safety" implications. For example, if you repair a dishwasher pressure sensor using non-identical parts (which may be much cheaper than BSH or SMEG sourced components), you may be inviting flooding (yes - there is a float that will prevent that - but you went from having two safeties to 1). An overheating oven may be a fire risk. Etc.

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 10:28:34 am
content: Quote from: Assafl on February 03, 2025, 07:31:13 amCRC/KONTAKT CHEMIE Plastic 70is for sure a suitable product for protecting the board.The elevator accident list isunfortunately incomplete.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 06:36:14 am
content: Quote from: timeandfrequency on February 03, 2025, 10:28:34 amPoor kid. The entire weight of the cabin (and the hydraulic ram) was on his chest.The operative concept in this case was that hydraulic elevators (which are usually very safe)are rare in France. ("L'ascenseur, de type hydraulique, rare en France,...").So the technicians are not as experienced in their maintenance. Furthermore, they are not as "up-to-date" as to updates to ASML standards. So they end up using parts (old spare parts stock) that may have been identified as "unsafe".The problem with "Safety" is that for the most part it isn't obvious. Why double check valves when one will do? An additional safety timer that never engages in a controller box? An "out of place" switch that seems to do nothing? An unidentifiable component?From the outside a "safety relay" looks and works identical to a regular contactor. So why spend 10x on a force-guided safety relay? Also - what are the downstream effects if you use the wrong component? (if you are lucky you burn the motor; if unluck the elevator falls or the door severs someone's head).

author: PiotrMisiuna
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 06:24:03 pm
content: I think it is a matter of trust. I'm not a teenager thinking about lift-surfing. I am a technician with years of experience who wants to look after our equipment in our building. If a certified guy from outside company doesn't believe I can handle basic procedures, I respect that.Trust goes both ways thou. Now I only have more questions about why a 1000 euro part has to fail when it wouldn't if properly taken care of.I'm too busy to thing about it too long. Passed my thoughts to the building owners and they will keep that in mind for the future.Now in a second building I have an elevator that has been offline for 2 years now, and there will be lots more wrong with that. Several companies made it work and it kept on failing after a week or so. That is going to be fun!

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 09:49:01 am
content: Quote from: PiotrMisiuna on February 04, 2025, 06:24:03 pmI have no knowledge about elevators (*) but since they are often controlled by a PLC, checking power supplies, connectors, cables, sensor status and their mechanical positioning is probably part of the basic verification tasks. I hope you will succeed too. Gathering some documentation about that second elevator would certainly be useful to understand the wiring and have some explanation when error codes shiop up. It would be a great achievement that a third-party technician could turn the tide, while elevator repair companies keep stuck on the issue.(*) first encounter was in this thread

author: PiotrMisiuna
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 08:36:45 pm
content: I did 10000ft assessment of the elevator problem solving a while ago. If you understand electronics well enough you could probably fix it...(huge)BUT!!! The biggest bearer is software. I managed to obtain a manual to the mentioned elevator and many of it's components.If you turn on the thing on and self test shows any errors it will lock itself and without access to a proper scanner able to reprogram the controller you can't even troubleshoot the thing, it will stay dead. In some cases you may need multiple devices for doors controllers, motor controllers and other stuff. This topic is huge, dangerous and expensive. Never the less, one day I'm gonna start poking it with a stick.