Hack-A-Day Comment Censorship - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 06:44:56 am
content: Someone sent this to me with the following commentary:QuoteI can't verify this, but several in the comments section are saying they are deleting comments. It doesn't sound good if true that they are deleting critical comments on articles.https://hackaday.com/2024/10/12/if-you-cant-say-anything-nice/

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 07:05:40 am
content: They aren't deleting comments it seems:Quote

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 07:58:16 am
content: If you choose a strategy where every random user can effectively temporarily delete any other post by clicking a report button, you lose your right to say "boohooweare not deleting them". They effectively are, allowing random users to moderate. Why would you ever want to give this power away to strangers beats me.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 08:03:17 am
content: Because you are obsessed with political correctness and you don't want to spend money on moderators.Ask GoogleI recall this is not the first comment-deleting drama at HaD.<tinfoil hat on>And because it gives you plausible deniability when you need to delete comments critical of you.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 08:19:16 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 13, 2024, 07:58:16 amAs a moderator of a reasonably well-used (but not ridiculously big / busy) Reddit sub I have to say that I don't think I've ever taken action as a result of a "report". At least 99% of the time I've already seen the comment reported and decided to take no action. If 100 people reported it then maybe I might change my mind, but one rando when I don't know who it is or what their actual objection is ... no. And, despite thousands of people viewing pretty much every post, I don't recall ever getting even two people reporting the same comment.There is a lot of good content on HackADay, but inevitably some of the projects they feature are crap. And people should be able to say so.And, yes, a single user report automatically hiding a comment until a mod looks at it is crazy.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 08:45:46 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 13, 2024, 07:58:16 amSo it seems, that's incredibly dumb.Seems like my comment is gone (or reported and hence hidden), and there is someone that posted impersonating me with the EEVblog handle

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 09:35:44 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 13, 2024, 08:45:46 amSounds like an opportunity.Report the impostor and see if it really disappears, or how many sockpuppets it takes to disappear it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 10:38:13 am
content: Quote from: magic on October 13, 2024, 09:35:44 amI reported it and it didn't disappear for me.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 10:57:22 am
content: has hackaday been infiltrated by inclusive, culturally Zz, sensitivity BS? for the so called modern genderless audience.were feelings are important then facts or doing your job is less important then virtue signalling rainbows.this BS has destroyed much of Hollywood , bud light controversy & large video game developers like Ubisoft. many have gone out of business over this stuff.

author: digger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 12:12:41 pm
content: ime, if my comment is remotely snarky, it simply doesn't get approved. also, my comments never just go through right away. they're always pending.i browse with a fresh browser session every time (and provide a random, fake email address when posting), so maybe that has something to do with it, too. or perhaps they shitlisted my IP, haha.i don't bother posting there anymore and rarely visit the site.i don't visit soylent news anymore either because of a similar situation, and they also got rid of "AC" (anon coward) posting. the mod janrinok is a whiner that ruined the culture.i miss old school internet culture with a more hands-off approach. i'm not talking efnet, 4chan, or kiwifarms. just, you know... reasonable discussion and some fun. fwiw, i think eevblog's fine.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 12:57:23 pm
content: I for one do not welcome our newhomo motusoverlords.Facts and objects are secondary, and emotions primary. Stop being an individual, and conform, or you will be excised. Resistance is not tolerated.

author: ArdWar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 01:02:21 pm
content: For a long time I thought the weirdness on their comment section were caused by them using WordPress (and Gravatar) system. Now I'm not sure if it's due to excessive moderation. Probably both.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 01:03:35 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on October 13, 2024, 10:57:22 amOne can present facts without hurting feelings.One can also present factswithpersonal attacks. My opinion is that personal attacks are generally unwarranted and should indeed be moderated.My general guideline is that attacks are only valid if the criticism can be defended.If I call someone an autistic retard, then I should rightly be moderated. But if I point out a potential flaw in a design, then that should be freely discussed.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 01:32:58 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 13, 2024, 10:38:13 amI reported it too (anonymously, I don't have an account there) and nothing happened.But then I reported your response too and it disappeared when I reloaded a few seconds later.Is your response really gone or is it some trick they are playing to make me think I have succeeded and GTFO?Why didn't the "EEVblog" comment disappear? Somebody already vetted it manually?At any rate, maybe it is possible to take down whole comment sections over thereI think I will play a little more as I have zero investment in that site and no reason to care what they think of me.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 03:21:09 pm
content: I played with it some more to get a feel of how it works and you also can.I have no account there and haven't visited HaD even once for at least several months until today. I was able to hide Dave's comment by clicking "report", F5, "report" again. Another F5 and it wasn't there. I could do the same to numerous other comments, but not to some others, including the fake EEVblog. On those, I tried again and again from several IP addresses and nothing helped.I think the system is based on reputation somehow, i.e. registered users (they have such a thing, right?) who are sufficiently high in the pecking order cannot be unexisted by users lower in the pecking order, and anonymous bystanders like me are the bottom. But it looks like many users can simply be deleted by literally anyone, even by a robot which scraps the website and clicks every link, if it goes through it twice. I didn't run into any rate limiting, I could delete comment after comment, except for those that just wouldn't go.So yes, it is crazy.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 03:32:05 pm
content: they used to and might still have competitions for alot of money (100k), so you can expect strong arm tactics to really evolve there and I would not be suprised if the 'attacks' they get might be more sophisticated and better financed (there is a sweet profit margin, even if you need to spend 20k USD on hackers, you can get alot of profit)

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 03:33:24 pm
content: Oh noes. People can say mean things. Free speech bad.I support the current thing.

author: gamalot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 04:13:20 pm
content: I immigrated from China and this is very similar to what happens in my home country, the government thinks people should give "positive" comments instead of "negative" ones!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 08:58:54 pm
content: Well, YT stopped displaying the count of "thumbs down" a while ago already. Very "chinese", apparently.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 10:58:06 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on October 13, 2024, 01:03:35 pmThat takes a surprising amount of social skills, when you are a thing/object-focused person and do not instinctively do that.Social persons do that instinctively, and do not need to spend extra effort doing so.For me, mutually beneficial social interactions require focus and cognitive effort on my part, and I still occasionally fail.Put simply,I desire to present facts and suggestions without hurting feelings, and I spend considerable effort trying to do so, but still occasionally fail.Quote from: Andy Chee on October 13, 2024, 01:03:35 pmWell yeah: labeling people –– as opposed to their output –– is counterproductive.Thing is, if I call a project a shoddily put together turd that will topple on the first unexpected input, should I be moderated?I'm pretty sure it is both accurate description of several (software) projects I've seen, and hurts someones feelings; and it is something I might write when sufficiently disgusted at the lack of engineering/workmanship, to express how strong my opinion is.Quote from: gamalot on October 13, 2024, 04:13:20 pmI'm one of those people who can be easily manipulated by (crafted, fake) positive feedback and attention.Because of this, I love direct feedback, even if it called my work utter crap, as long as it contains something actionable. That is, "this is shit" is not useful, but "this is shit, because it will fail at the first unexpected input"isuseful, because it points out something I hadn't thought out.And posts that point out its flaws to others who might not notice them are even more useful – even though it might hurt my pride and "offend" me.Forcing myself eat humble pie every now and then is extremely useful, because it keeps my mind limber and nimble, and doesn't let delusions of my own grandeur stop admitting my failures. It is the lack of any kind of feedback, being ignored, that gets to me, really.The issues I've described in this post are the reasons I had to stop participating at StackOverflow and StackExchange networks: I just could not fit into the social requirements there. Both the language requirements (using preferred pronouns over English "they" was initiallyrequired), as well as long-standing members avoiding admitting or correcting any errors because it might have negative effect on their "reputation" (and thus happily leading others astray), was like having to conform to the Party politics against my own ethics/morals for me. I had to 'emigrate'.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 11:51:39 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on October 13, 2024, 10:58:06 pmAs long as the thing is attacked and not the person, welcome to the engineering world

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 11:54:19 pm
content: Quote from: magic on October 13, 2024, 01:32:58 pmI put a long comment that is still gone:

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 12:05:53 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on October 13, 2024, 10:58:06 pmThat's true, but remember it takes two to tango.Some people do not have the social skills to be tactful (which is rather common in engineering), but likewise, some people definitely do not have the social skills to receive criticism (as long as it's not insults!) either and detach themselves from their work.If anything, both need to make a step toward each other. But being "overly sensitive" and working in engineering is a sure way of setting one up for a miserable life IMO.Conversely, some people do have the social skills, but are not tactful, either all the time, or in some particular situations. Especially online, where natural social inhibitions are a lot lower than IRL.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 12:25:03 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 14, 2024, 12:05:53 amMy very first job reference had, and I guote "David sometimes lacks tact, but this not due to rudeness, with time I believe he can improve this quality"Spoiler, nope, I never improvedThe stereotypical lack of tact in engineers is IMO absolutely vital to why engineering works. If you try and squash that (especially when it's confined to the engineer world which HaD is), engineering ultimately becomes less useful.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 01:24:21 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on October 13, 2024, 08:19:16 amIf I ran a site like that I would consider that off topic and banned in project threads. It's not a general purpose forum, it's discussion threads for individual projects. People complaining about the administrator project choice gets in the way of people who are actually trying to talk about the project.If a project is bad for some legitimate reason, like it's plagiarism, fraudulent or illegal, complain directly to the administrator. If the complaint is legitimate it would be taken down If you just don't like a project, think it's boring, or stupid, or badly done stop reading and move on. Technical suggestion are fine as long as you don't say that the project is "bad" because they didn't do it the way you like.Of course I don't run hack-a-day and have no interest in moderating any online forum of any type. I'm not saying they have to do it my way, but I don't think it's reasonable to say "they should let people complain about bad projects" as of that were obviously correct.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 06:04:09 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 13, 2024, 11:51:39 pmSometimes it is not about a thing but about human error. How can we teach to improve this without hurting someones feelings. In real live it, at times, is possible to asses the person and dress up the comment nicely. On the internet that is not possible and even when written without being to negative, like instead of "Hey asshole learn to read", "Someone need to learn how to read", it can still hurt someones ego.It should always be an option to point out personal flaws. It is part of free speech, and it seems that the puppet masters are aiming to limit it severely.On both personal and technical plane it can be done without being to negative, but when you point out the flaws in someones project they are very proud of, it is going to hurt either way. But leaving it unaddressed leads to more people building shitty stuff.Especially on the internet people have to grow a thicker skin and keep their toes short.Otherwise don't post on public forums, because there is always the risk of getting negative feedback.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 06:25:49 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 13, 2024, 11:54:19 pmYou commented as a rando, so any rando can delete your comment.Some will disagree with it, others may be testing the "it was a report spam by those bad users" claim, others by accident, others to troll HaD, others...Welcome to a shitty website, I guess.(BTW, it wasn't me this time)

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 07:26:23 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on October 14, 2024, 06:04:09 amThe problem with pointing out personal flaws, is that personal flaws can't be fixed within an internet thread discussion. Same goes with reading comprehension.Hence, both are pointless, waste of bandwidth, and achieve absolutely nothing within the thread.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 08:24:10 am
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on October 14, 2024, 07:26:23 amNeither does some of the information provided by the person who did not read the original post correctly.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 05:14:37 pm
content: HaD was sold to Supplyframe 2013? I think it's got little soul now and struggles to find content.So a few articles are weak and get flamed in comments. What do they expect will happen?I imagine comment sanitization is needed to tow the corporate line, or else it's the Wild West.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 04:11:37 pm
content: The usual, no beef, pls yawn updatehttps://hackaday.com/2024/10/19/hackaday-hacked"Dave Jones says:October 19, 2024 at 8:34 amU wot m8?--------------------

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 05:41:44 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on October 14, 2024, 05:14:37 pmI think places are struggling for content, especially niche stuff. I know one of the writers and they are very keen to keep pushing the homebuild type stuff. I often flick through theregister from time to time but even that is getting a bit samey with most stuff with vague promises of AI stuff.I didn't think Hackaday would be a censorship type place, it only takes a few angry people to make it a mess.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 06:04:30 pm
content: There is a drive to sensationalize stories and generate click-bait - it's a Hollywood production ta-da look what I did! It's all about ME.This is what Maker's have become I guess. No community that I can see, working on a project together.Hackaday.IO is their dog's breakfast, just a flop. Imagine pimping out maker's work, ok wow such value added there.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 06:28:21 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on October 19, 2024, 06:04:30 pmA few years ago it was cool and trendy, there were hackspaces and makerspaces all over the place but a lot has died out. If I had the money I would get a nice makers space set up.

author: globoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 06:33:18 pm
content: I guess I don't understand the hate on HaD and HaD.io. Seems to me that they provide a community where hacks and projects can be shared and discussed. Their editors really do try. They have a great graphic artist. They provide hosting - for free - of projects in a place that people can know about and search for things that interest them. There are a lot of really interesting projects hosted there (full disclosure, including my own). And they don't seem to be doing any of the things that are currently enshittifying (sp?) the internet.Yes, there are shitty people in this world and they try to game the site, like they do this one, and they post stupid comments, like they do on this one, but they are easy enough to ignore. And it's easy to just skip over stuff that doesn't interest you. I don't understand why so many people get up in arms. Please note, I don't mean valid critiques or critical observations. For sure when you are in front of other technical people, they're going to judge things on technical merit. That is useful.Compared to so many internet properties, I think HaD (and EEVblog) are generally glorious havens. I think that we, as users not paying any money for these sites, should cut the owners, contributors and moderators slack as a first resort.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2024, 02:51:53 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on October 19, 2024, 04:11:37 pmNot me.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2024, 05:29:08 pm
content: What the actual fuck? So they write code in which any user from any random internetz address can randomly choose to remove other peoples comments, and then when people use this function they claim they have been "hacked". Is this some sort of a joke?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2024, 05:31:59 pm
content: 'Ill conceived' is the correct term IMHOI don't think self rinsing will ever work for fora as there are always spammers and trolls around making a mess of things. IOW: if you want to offer a forum, you need to be willing to put in the effort. It is a labour of love if the forum is free.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2024, 07:25:25 pm
content: Reminds me a bit of Youtube and the dislike counter where they justhack offthe comments they don't like.Quote from: EEVblog on October 13, 2024, 06:44:56 amQuote from: EEVblog on October 13, 2024, 11:54:19 pmhttps://hackaday.com/2024/10/19/hackaday-hacked/QuoteIf it is removing that many comments and complaints about poor quality stuff and click bait so that leaves moderating?QuoteJoke:They'd want to put a LIKE counter on there to stop them crying and running off to a safe place.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2024, 07:39:39 pm
content: Anyone can post comments on HaD blog, under any name. It seems ridiculous- or desperation for comment buzz and activity? No account is necessary.Yet you'll need an account atHackaday.iojust to peruse design files, not that projects have anything useful posted, that is another dog's breakfast over there. Many projects are a stub with missing files.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2024, 07:49:09 pm
content: Both HaD and HaD.io see a lot of spam...Not requiring any user verification on their frontpage isn't a great idea. I bet a good bot can litter that whole site in a matter of minutes. A bad enough actor can bypass modern captcha's, push requests from thousands of random IPs, and leave no coherent data to filter them by user ID or mail domain (you can fill in any bogus email you want iirc).Sounds like a great recipe! I'm not surprised they insta-hide comments on report, because there are no "I will just hack(fix) that!" vibes here at all lol

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2024, 07:54:43 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on October 13, 2024, 01:03:35 pmNo you can't. There are millions for whom facts are the most offensive things of all, as you can't get around reality, however much you may try.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2024, 11:26:34 pm
content: Best comment from that most recent article about how they got owned by their report button came from the guy that allegedly did the owning:Quote

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 05:20:13 am
content: Sounds like a joke. Also, a dozen comments were nuked by meThe whole "hack" was probably a bunch of bored people trying to test how far the system lets them go, hence the "mass attack from multiple IP addresses". And multiple IP addresses are not necessary, you can report twice from one IP and that's all it takes to kill an anonymous comment. Job well done, HaD.Or maybe I missed something and somebody did write a bot which systematically cleared the whole site from comments. It's not like they have any mechanism in place to prevent that or aren't basically asking for it

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 08:23:24 am
content: Funniest of all, they never talked to or looked at Slashdot comment system evolution, and ended up repeating the same mistakes, and making more of their own besides.Shows how hubris and delusions of being better than those before always leads to a downfall, even in software. Ignore history at your own peril.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 09:20:44 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 20, 2024, 07:54:43 pmYeah, basically you could spend all the time and effort into typing in a comment, with genuine good intent. And someone, anyone can delete that, because you didn't use oxford coma or used the wrong pronoun or whatever. It's disrespectful for anyone spending time there.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 09:32:45 am
content: Plus, in this era of social media, a LOT of people do not, perhaps even cannot, distinguish between disagreement and offense.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 10:53:34 am
content: Why not put at least a ReCaptcha or similar requirement on each 'report' action? At the very least you need to use a Captcha solver to do that, which costs money and requires compute time, slowing down any malicious report actions.

author: eTobey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 11:38:42 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 13, 2024, 07:58:16 amAmen!And i am sure, there are many other platforms that do it this or a similar way. For instance, i suspect facebook of not deleting comments, but rather "hide" them. Its kinda strange that comments with critisim get sometimes a lot of answers, and sometimes nearly none at all, or delayed quite a bit. And then, there is youtube, that hides the thumbs down count... Its quite disgusting!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 09:38:44 am
content: Quote from: eTobey on October 21, 2024, 11:38:42 amOdysee has the best comment system.If a comment gets enough thumbs downs (splats) then the text gets hidden and replaced with a "Click here to see comment" button.So the viewers can "hide" the troll comments so the creator doesn't have to see them in their face when they read the comments.

author: eTobey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 07:00:56 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 22, 2024, 09:38:44 amViewers could "hide"everythingthis way, that would not fit into their beliefs. Fanboys do love such a feature.All that glitters is not gold.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 10:45:22 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 13, 2024, 03:33:24 pmHackaday and eevblog are both non-free speech. There are rules on both websites. You violate the rules, mods have choice to delete/ban/whatever the hell they want. No need to bring your political BS into this.Plenty of trolls used to lurk the HAD comments, I guarantee their posts would get them banned here.Quote from: floobydust on October 20, 2024, 07:39:39 pmIncorrect, you can preview design files without an account (jpg, pdf).QuoteThats like saying github sucks because there are a lot of unfinished projects. There is tons of great content on hackaday.io.Its just very easy to start a project, so you end up seeing a lot of the beginnings of projects that would never have been visible in the past. You can build off of them or ignore them, and search by "completed project".

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 01:32:39 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on October 22, 2024, 10:45:22 pmFor those who don't want any rules, try Usenet.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 04:47:27 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on October 22, 2024, 10:45:22 pmYes I'm wrong about access to files on HaDio requiring a login - ha, it's to be able to leave a comment asking where the fuck are the design files and details - "Log In or become a member to leave your comment"Many times I've clicked HaD on a "Featured Project or "Trending Project" and it's... "Files 0":Italian Word ClockFiles 0.Nixie Clock On Binary CountersFiles 0.Renovation of the E004 audio tape recorderFiles 0.Today tried looking at another trending project:Skull of Fateand the schematic png is a thumbnail, I see no firmware, some Gerbers. But the same project onGithubhas all the details and is superior for project info.I'm not sure what the point of Hackadayio is - some projects are stubs, no content, some have a picture or two, some have 3D only files, some have source files, others just link to Tindie to buy it.As such, many of the projects could not be understood or duplicated. What's the point then? Just showboating?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 04:59:48 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on October 23, 2024, 04:47:27 amI guess it's the modern equivalanet of getting your project published in the magazines, but with zero scrutiny.A lot of people may not have their own website to showcase their projects and get possible feedback, so Hackaday.io provides that in a convenient and comprehensive way where others might also find your project more easily. It also linke to a tindie store if you have one.You can also have people join your "team" and help etc.Also looks good on your resume, as people have heard of hackaday.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 06:26:12 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on October 22, 2024, 10:45:22 pmIn most parts of the world there is no real free speech either. There are also rules to obey. Try calling a policeperson some nasty word or use a word that is on the blacklist in public. There is the risk of a fine or even jail time. In some parts of the world you even risk death just by calling the ruling dictator an ass.So free speech is an illusion.And in a way that is a good thing. Without rules there would be chaos. Problem is we are evolving into a society where there are to many (stupid) rules.If only humanity was able to regulate and control itself in an acceptable manner, then rules would not be needed. I fear this will never be reality as there will always be people that misbehave.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 08:52:08 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on October 22, 2024, 10:45:22 pmWhy do you write a generic off-topic nice-speach comment like this is beyond me. Thewhole pointof this discussion is that:* This has nothing to do with rules; posts are removed without violating any rules (written or "widely accepted") ;* Moderators have decided to give the power of moderation away from moderators to any random people including you and me.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 03:59:53 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on October 23, 2024, 06:26:12 amNo. That's not how it works, nor why.Give or take to what extent, and depending on what venue one is speaking in -- because laws vary between countries, and rules vary between private locations, whether physical or online.But generally speaking, those rules are there to protect personal freedom.Your free speech ends, where it materially affects my right to freedom of expression, and indeed, mere existence.If you're a "free speech absolutist", that means yousupport and encourage:- Holocaust denialism- White supremacy, as an example, or more generally, any violent movement with subjugation of others as its goal- Lying, fraud, manipulation, scamming, in public view no less- Threats, both implied and direct; sending rape or death threats, doxxing, etc.- Emotional abuse, in public view no less; belittlement, gaslighting, objectification and sexual harassment, doxxing, etc.In short, you approve of, and encourage, all of the above.It does not matter if that support is tacit:"well, people just need to be tolerant of those things; we must cherish that other people can be bold enough to say these things from time to time." No. Fuck you. Fuck directly out of here. There is no place in civilized society for that Twitter fanboy pseudo-libertarian bullshit. Laws exist for a reason. Learn some basic fucking civics. And more importantly, develop some compassion. Until then, out, go, now,you are not fit for civilized society.From a more technical perspective: permitting such speech, raises the entropy of our public forums. Low entropy is necessary for clear and meaningful communication, that cultivates individual freedom, expression, and democracy -- the right to self-direct and organize society as we see mutually fit.It is precisely the destruction of the latter, that certain parties see fit to impose: the extremely rich because they stand to benefit from the subjugation of workers; the despot because they stand to benefit strategically (which usually also means personal benefit and further subjugation of more people) from the weakening or subjugation of their adversaries.Which really is just saying the same thing two different ways; narcissism is rampant among the extremely rich. Take Musk for example: he's created the ideal case study, purchasing the entirety of a global social media corporation, crafting it into an echo chamber that strokes his ego largely by bot automation.It works on the small scale just as well. In this venue, abuse causes a chilling effect at the very least, forcing away the direct target but also making others less likely to contribute. We do not tolerate abuse, for both reasons (not to mention legal ones in whatever countries posters can access this). Absolute free speech means abolishing spam rules here, no CAPTCHA, no registration, free for all, and threads and forums would rapidly bloat with meaningless spam -- utterly diluting whatever communication we had intended to make here, and extracting such a minuscule amount of value from the forum.But so spam goes, it's a destructive process, it's not interested in increasing overall profitability, it's about making a quick buck in any way possible (i.e., by the spammer and their co-conspirators, any externalities be damned). We have a vested interest here in profitability of the EEVblog enterprise generally (Dave most directly, but by extension, those of us who find the series entertaining and wish to continue that entertainment), and the forum generally has almost certainly been a net positive for the professional development, profitability, and general enjoyment, of members -- a net positive to society. Which is, really, quite high praise.The imagined libertarian slippery-slope hazard of speech laws is a straw man at best. It is not a slippery slope, specifically for the reason that, determining what is and is not acceptable speech, is broadly and diversely important to all people. Indeed, this is the correct level at which to argue the details: not to deny any such law, facially, because -- again, fuck you -- but which specific cases to deny, and which specific exceptions to allow. Likewise, we must oppose any restrictions that seek to go too far: these can be easiest recognized by their authoritarian or capitalist intent (i.e., to subjugate others, or extract profit therefrom): which organizations are supporting such laws, and what their beliefs are, or their supporters in turn, etc. etc. Likewise their budgets, and who's paying for them. All the more reason why legislation and lobbying must be visible at all levels, no dark money to hide from public view.(And, usual disclaimers apply: maybe this isn't what angle you were intending, and maybe this doesn't reflect you personally. In particular, I use "libertarian" (as I understand the US version of that school of "thought", in which '"free" speech' is a common ideal) as example, and not as a descriptor of you. Maybe this post in general doesn't apply very well at all, directly, but in that case, it still serves to illustrate to others, who may've had such thoughts, and who are open to questioning those thoughts, what is wrong about them. And it serves as an indicator of my standpoint on the subject, and nuance -- or lack thereof. But, not that I'm going into much detail of law and scope and finer things here, that's not important to the main point -- again, that's something to be hashed out in the space of rules and exceptions, not avoiding it entirely. It is, and must be, a messy process, because people are a mess, and we must respect that. Finally, and likewise: Twitter and Musk are mere examples; particularly good ones, being so large (global scale), visible, and so uniquely illustrative.)Tim

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 04:56:19 pm
content: Wow, big wall of text.The first couple of lines better explain the first part of my post. Yes there are rules everywhere, and yes they are there to protect everyone's personal freedom.My intention was to state that there is no absolute free speech. Well maybe in your own home where no one is listening, but what is the point of that.I'm not a supporter of absolute free speech, because a lot of it can be indeed hurtful to others. But the way the scale is tipping at the moment towards rather oppressive limiting of what can be said or written in public is completely of balance. It is a very difficult subject of coarse as to where the line should be, and who determines what is offensive and what not. With the whole woke movement and over sensitive public opinion it is becoming idiocracy.This forum, in my opinion, has a good set of rules, that at times can be bent a bit, and it provides a lot of useful information, so I agree that we all should do our best to keep it that way.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 05:05:00 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on October 23, 2024, 03:59:53 pmIt's really taken to the extremes, pushback is expected.People got into jail for posting online rap songs, verbatim, that millions listen to (USA various).People are getting arrested for facebook posts (UK, hundreds of counts per year, Germany).Governments are using big tech to manipulate, delete posts, change narratives, and it only ever goes one way (Twitter files, FBI etc.)I saw this before, when the black car took you away into the gulag if you said something. I was hoping those times are behind us, after we tore down the statues of those dictators, and we demolished the iron curtain.This is not acceptable, we have to do better.Moderation cannot be done by some rando.People cannot be jailed for thought crimes, or perceived hate where there was noneAnd you cannot use 0.1% of the bad apples as the common denominator.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 06:14:59 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on October 23, 2024, 03:59:53 pmTo whom is your rant directed to? Is pcprogrammer now pro-rape threats or wat the fuck? I mean,take a look at your own writing. Isn't it ironical that your wall of text would work as a textbook example ofgaslightingand emotional abuse? You attack some others with a long list of bad things you claim they directly or indirectly do or support doing. You just say they do. You give zero logical explanation why; people you reply to are justbadbecause you say so.You can of course hide behind your "IF you're a 'free speech absolutist'" statement and "disclaimer". So maybe you were just generally babbling and ranting and really meant no one. But then this begs a question: why quote pcprogrammer? Why rant here? Again: to whom is your rant directed to?Do you realize "oooh! I'm just saying these things out loud, trust meI didn't mean you specifically(even though I'm saying this to you)" is ages old narcissistic manipulation / gaslighting strategy and hurts the receiver even more deeply than honestly saying what you mean?Because if it's directed to anyone on this thread, implying someone here is "free speech absolutist" as defined in your rant - you are then just gaslighting and abusing, pure and simple.Youare being offensive. Which, as a free speech supporter I approve your right to, but isn't it all hypocritical?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 07:09:57 pm
content: Godwin's Law never failsI would humbly suggest that if your existence is threatened by my ramblings, there is a really big problem, and it might not be mineThere used to be time when Americans believed in "natural law", i.e. this or that is the law simply because that's the way things are. Then they stopped believing so and things are growing more and more amusing with each day...

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 07:29:25 pm
content: It's clearly reading way too much into it to leap to think it's emotional abuse. To me, it reads as if@T3sl4co1lis simply explaining that the examples provided were not the actual reason why free speech is an illusion and, rather, that the idea of absolute free speech is often deliberately used for destructive purposes. But I don't want to paraphrase since the text was written better than I could summarize here.Quote from: tszaboo on October 23, 2024, 05:05:00 pmI disagree with 95% of that, and so do others in most legal jurisdictions. There are plenty of valid, good reasons why inchoate offenses exist in most parts of the world. It suits some people to blur that with the idea that words alone are "thought" crimes, but they are not; you have to say it, publish it, or act on it in some way.You're_always_free to think what you like. But if youinciteothers to commit a crime, then in most countries, you may well have broken the law, so of course, that should be punished.If a person doesn't make the effort to understand what is legal and what is not, and commits a crime of incitement to something, whether that's on Twitter or not, they should absolutely be punished to the extent of the law. (I'm using the example of incitement, but there are also many other real crimes that people try to pass off as "thought" types of crimes, and they should be, and often are, just as serious, if not more so, as actually committing an assault or other physical act themselves. If you don't like that, it is completely incompatible with most legal systems worldwide.Quote from: magicAs discussed above, actually, it might indeed be one's own big problem if they commit an offense as part of the "ramblings" (which sounds so innocent when written that way!) if they are heard or read by others. That's the law.Anyway, it's a digression from the Hackaday thing. But still worth mentioning.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 08:32:05 pm
content: Quote from: shabaz on October 23, 2024, 07:29:25 pmNot necessarily. Overthrowing a dictator would be crime, and violence, and objectively good thing to do.We cannot draw a line and say that from this point on history has ended, government is always good.We have to be able to discuss it, online or offline. We have to be able to criticize people, or their hackaday projects.I don't think you (plural) understand the issue. We used to have laws that restricted free speech, and there were good exceptions. With concrete examples. These laws have been superseded. I mostly know examples of the UK due to some people I follow on Youtube are outspoken about it. Here are the issue:The new laws, like the Online safety act, "Non-crime hate incident" (even writing this down gives me the freak), all these has vague language and it has been used against people that criticized government policies. Something that we absolutely should be able to discuss, online or offline.Toxic positivity does not lead anywhere good.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 08:55:51 pm
content: Quote from: magic on October 23, 2024, 07:09:57 pmThat's for sure.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 09:12:11 pm
content: It's a nice coincidence when a law aligns with what feels good or right, but the law is the law. It's OK to argue that a law is not good, of course (and historically, there are plenty of examples of bad law).(Regarding vague language, there's also an element of a distinction to be made between different countries. Some write legislation in ways that try to express the_intent_of the legislators [e.g. France, as I understand, I could be wrong], whereas other countries [USA, UK, AUS] write in a veryprescriptivemanner which might have loopholes that miss the original intent). Hard to say which is better. It's just different).I simply wanted to highlight that people (intentionally or not) mix the concept of pure "thought" "crimes" with actual real crimes, which certainly do not necessarily require more than a keyboard and a Twitter account. And my other point was that there can be extremely good reasons for this, I could elaborate on if anyone wants to dig deeper into it. But that would be even more of a digression from Hackaday comments (which I don't have much to say on, beyond what others may have already also commented on above).

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 09:32:38 pm
content: After the cement has been poured, after the project has been published, after the election - comments and free speech are too late, pretty much useless as nothing can be changed or modified or affect the greater good. Magpies have free speech but even then jungle rules they will attack each other if someone is being a jerk. The community self-moderates I guess.Quote from: EEVblog on October 23, 2024, 04:59:48 amI believe electronics magazines are high quality for the projects. You can get the schematic, BoM, PCB, firmware etc. and an editor has done the work. Before committing to publishing it on paper, people strived for as few mistakes as possible.Hackadayio has put "publishing" a project to a new low. I think they are contributing to the demise of electronics magazines and the art in general.I have no idea what hackadayio's revenue model is. It seems to be- leave the site on autopilot, collect a paycheque and do the minimum amount of work possible. Content is from the masses, unscrutinized.People post a project there to get attention, fame and glory meanwhile they are borderline fake - missing design files and only a few pics.2024 Aug. Practical Electronics magazine is "joining the Silicon Chip publishing stable". Whatever that means.You should interview Nicholas Vinen, it would be interesting to hear his take on things.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 09:52:32 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 23, 2024, 06:14:59 pmPossibly. Like I said, it's directed at a certain example of reasoning. And I don't know for sure if that's the direct example targeted (quoted).I'll take it apart:Quote from: pcprogrammer on October 23, 2024, 06:26:12 amTo what breadth of "most" shall we understand this to mean? The casual person will be most familiar with their own experience, i.e. US and UK-centric for most of the English speaking world. There are a lot of casual people here, and I don't see any specifiers that suggest the author has broader experience. I don't recall relevant prior context from the poster (which is literally to say, *I* don't know; maybe context has been mentioned and I didn't notice).That casuThat's a pretty damn far case from "most of the world" (about 3B live in India and China alone), and still doesn't tell whether the interest should be ranked per capita (how many people are living in X condition of freedom) or per locale (how many countries/regions/places/sites have X condition of freedom). Confusing (or leaving ambiguous) which selection one intends, is -- either a common rhetorical trick when used intentionally, or a common omission when inattentive or ignorant of it (see also: using mean when median is more meaningful, or other statistical measures).QuoteThere are places where police are professional and competent, and ably ignore verbal abuse in public; does a specific example (like this) invalidate the claim that "free speech is an illusion"? Over what scope are we to take this "illusion" to mean?"In some parts of the world" suggests somewhat broader familiarity, but the description is still very vague. In particular, I'd expect a more specific action; "ass" is a very generic western epithet.Thus I would air on the side of, anyone looking for truly free speech, is at best ignorant (hence the explanation), or -- as it often the case -- at least a useful idiot, or a fully willing participant, in further restriction of freedoms.Applying that here, is at odds with,QuoteGreat so we're in agreement?...QuoteBut this pulls back to the libertarian thought process: "If ONLY people could behave themselves!" "If ONLY the world were simpler!" It's not, it won't be, and it never can be. Being ignorant of why those rules exist, is no excuse to remove them. See: Chesterton's Fence.Indeed, it isspecificallyby way of laws, that we regulate and control our collective selves. That's what we call it when we do it. How can such a statement make any sense?Perhaps this is still off-base, or "arguing in agreement". The general tone of the last sentence supports that. I have one remaining question, then: why hedge it as "may never"? There will always be those who push the rules, who lack morals, who seek personal gains, regardless of others, regardless of the greater or common good. This is not a problem that has, will be -- or can be, solved by evolution or religion, say. (Indeed, I would argue that such traits are a necessary aspect of evolution, for better or for worse; it is therefore up to us to build society in such a way to improve our lot, and that requires a compromise between infringing the rights of those that would do or encourage actions that would harm that society.)Quote from: pcprogrammer on October 23, 2024, 04:56:19 pmOk, that sounds very good then.Quote...Aaaand away it goes...But for a different (deeper, more subtle) reason. So, not the full brunt and target of what I wrote.So this is a separate topic, I think. To summarize, there is no "woke movement". This term is an invention of conservative media outlets ginning up divisiveness towards affected groups. If they wanted to say "LGBTQ", they can just out and say "LGBTQ", or trans, or black, or immigrant, or whatever -- and sometimes they do, and in the past they very much have, but because accusing these groups largely no longer works (they look too obviously villainous to accuse them, which costs popular support), they must contort themselves in knots, crafting new imagined threat actors to keep their followers in fear.Conservative media operates in a broad network, from (formerly) private channels (remember the Sinclair group supercut from some years ago?) to major players (Musk; Fox News, anything Murdoch owned generally, etc.), to funders and parties. They hold in common an authoritarian, capitalist goal of extracting value from people at any cost; typically this involves suppressing personal freedoms (like abortion, bodily rights) and enacting draconian laws to line their pockets. Methods include harnessing religious belief, and more generally collective narcissism and all it entails.In the US, conservative media followings and libertarian beliefs correlate very strongly, so that aspect doesn't seem to be in error here.There is also the target of the reply -- since both of these posts are based on terse excerpts, they follow a similar pattern, and I might be caught up in the "how dare you" "yo bro I'm on your side" that sometimes happens when tone is missing. Namely, the starting point;Quote from: tszaboo on October 13, 2024, 03:33:24 pmWhich doesn't really say much of anything. Are the two lines sarcastic? One but not the other?But as I said above, ambiguity is often used for rhetorical purpose.Quote from: tszaboo on October 23, 2024, 05:05:00 pmSee, this is good -- at least, hinted examples, amounts.But... what's missing (I can only assume intentionally) is what specific acts those persons are guilty of. I can only imagine these are specific cases: copyright varies between countries, and some may criminalize it (or associated or related acts, e.g. DMCA, Patriot act, etc.). Germany in particular prohibits white supremacy speech, and with good reason. Whether they're doing that too heavy-handedly, or inaccurately, or inattentively... that's a worthy debate, but it's one that is for them to decide.Is it intrinsically right to commit illegal speech?Or is the wrong that was committed, putting such a law against such speech?The last part in particular is especially chilling to say, when governments aren't the ones involved in Twitter for example; Musk's censorship and manipulation is legendary, but you are apparently ignorant to that.To sum up, my post is mostly directed in general. To pcprogrammer, but in a more focused manner; and in a similar manner, but more strongly so, to tszaboo.Tim

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 10:49:55 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on October 23, 2024, 09:52:32 pmFull stop. You are being intentionally obtuse. These people got arrested because woke policies, "misgendering", racism for criticizing illegal immigration, and so on, and you know this damn well.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 12:11:01 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 23, 2024, 10:49:55 pmIt happened precisely like that? Sure...And these days, if you say you're English, you will be arrested, and you will be thrown in jail.Either you're gullible, or you don't understand the rule of law. Or both.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 12:28:35 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 23, 2024, 08:52:08 amComments are temporarily removed, checked if they violate the rules or not, and reinstated if they do not.It was shown this system can easily be abused, and HAD are taking feedback on how to improve it, you can see in the very comments on that article. One idea they wanted to try was the similar to odysee where it would mark the comment as being reviewed.User moderation is a major part of basically all top free community web sites (youtube, facebook, odsyee, etc.). Its not feasible to have one without it. Unless you prefer AI moderation or fees to cover the cost of dedicated comment reviewers.Quote from: floobydust on October 23, 2024, 09:32:38 pmYou are missing the point again.Hackaday, like github, is a place to upload and document your project. As soon as you create an io page, by default it is visible to everyone. This is a useful no cost service to the community.If you prefer reading curated magazines, then do that, or only look at hackaday contest winners or something (where a specific level of documentation would be required).

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 01:26:10 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 23, 2024, 10:49:55 pmFine, show your sources then. The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Please provide a legal definition of "woke". In each of the relevant venues (USA, UK, .de).Tim

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 02:24:23 am
content: I feel that behavior in society is regulated at two levels -1. Law: Highest level, makes sure society doesn't fall into complete chaos, generally reflects the will of the people (in a democracy) but is slow moving, legally enforceable2. Unwritten intrapersonal rules: Fast moving, “grassroots”, where new social norms are developed and reinforced, where public opinion shifts by small but cumulative intrapersonal interactionsI feel that term "free speech" should almost be reserved to describe the ability to speak out against (or in favor of) government/law, and societal structures derived thereof...and not much more than that. Your ability to do and say things ultimately is derived from whether it is legal to do so.When I was a kid, it was “cool” to use homophobic slang (saying something is “gay”, or calling someone a “f*g” to mean loser.) Ten years from that time, usage of homophobic slang in everyday language seemingly dropped to near zero. Is/was calling something “gay” illegal? No. Does society (as a whole) look down on it (now)? Yes. So much so that people stopped using that language? Yes.It’s dangerous to conflate “free speech” with “I want to say a hurtful thing, but people don’t like when I say it!” Someone rightfully calling you a dick for being a dick is just how it works.I don’t know if anyone (here) was really arguing against any of this.Then, of course, there are the people who damn well are not concerned with “free speech” but use the term as cover for saying whatever hateful thing they want to say, to further whatever agenda they may have.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 06:35:05 am
content: Quote from: TimNJ on October 24, 2024, 02:24:23 amWhat I hate is when radical mobs try to eliminate words that have been used for generations for totally innocent unrelated things, and use the cover excuse of "offensive" to try and push some BS virtue agenda to show how much power they have.e.g. Famously Master/Slave in recent peak woke timeshttps://www.eetimes.com/its-time-for-ieee-to-retire-master-slave/https://www.oshwa.org/2022/01/10/new-spi-terminology/https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/serial-peripheral-interface-spi/allhttps://hackaday.com/2020/06/29/updating-the-language-of-spi-pin-labels-to-remove-casual-references-to-slavery/https://makezine.com/article/maker-news/mosi-miso-and-140-years-of-wrong/And if you dared speak up aginst the change you were branded an "ist" by the woke mob.And even Male/Female in connectors.https://cdm.link/so-yeah-lets-just-use-plug-and-socket-industry-group-recommends-obvious-change-in-terminology/

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 07:15:47 am
content: Dave gave some nice examples of how things are evolving into idiocracy.Some Dutch examples.The product describedhereused to be called "negerzoenen", but has now been changed to "chocozoenen", just because the word "neger" is discriminating. But it is a valid word to specify a race and as such bares no negative intent. (Dutch article about the renaming:https://www.chocozoenen.com/service/negerzoen/)The product describedhereis also getting a new name just because of that "joden" bears a discriminative load, while it just refers to an ethnoreligious group of people.The thing is that society is becoming oversensitive to the possible negative meaning of perfectly valid words. And that is what I mean with the "woke movement".We can argue about it back and forth, but in general there is agreement that "free speech" is and will always be a limited thing.Were as "law is law" is fine and dandy, but when a law is laid on a crooked foundation it should be allowed to discuss it and not be prosecuted based on that same crooked law. And to my opinion, which I can't back with proper examples, western governments are swaying to become to restrictive just due to the wrong public pressure. One can say that it is democracy at work of course, where the majority decides. The question remains if it actually is the real majority.The film Idiocracy, while in my opinion a bad movie, seems to become a bit of a reality. Just look at commercials and how stupid they are becoming. Loud and repetitive.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 08:21:09 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on October 24, 2024, 07:15:47 amI have these discussions often with my daughter. I reasoned that if you don't like the words I use, please grow a thicker skin. They're just words which can't hurt you. But as time goes by my thinking about this changes. Language is the strongest tool we have in human interaction. The words we use reflect our society. Societal change then changes the words we use. Common concepts fall out of use, get a new meaning or are renamed. No big deal as this happened since we started to talk to each other.The question is why would I be against renaming a negerzoen to a chocozoen? Why would I see this as a sign everything goes to hell in a handcart and fight it tooth and nail? AFAIK the recipe did not change, so these zoenen still will taste good (or bad if you don't like them). As a white person I am in no position to argue whether renaming the zoen was long overdue or should not have taken place at all. I don't have a dog in this fight. It really surprises me that a lot of people seem to think very different about this. The world comes to an end because negerzoenen are renamed. It is amazing to see how people resist change in a world that is changing all the time.Damn, another half hour gone while I was supposed to design a mains filter

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 10:22:50 am
content: Quote from: shabaz on October 23, 2024, 07:29:25 pmIt's not the law, it's government regulation. Governments come and go, and those that attempt to legislate against actual law may "go" faster than some others. Just look at the utter trainwreck which is the politics in Western countries today.Quote from: woody on October 24, 2024, 08:21:09 amAs a "white person" you are in no position to argue anything. It's a label used by people with no identity, no goals and no thoughts besides worrying about everyone's skin color

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 10:29:14 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on October 24, 2024, 01:26:10 amhttps://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-43816921https://www.thepinknews.com/2019/09/05/trolling-malicious-communication-misgendering-stephanie-hayden-kate-scottow/https://www.economist.com/europe/2018/01/13/germany-is-silencing-hate-speech-but-cannot-define-itI will give you a legal definition of woke, if you give me a law that forces me to type you a comment like that. And also the please jump through some hoops like a seal, film it and send it to us. In the meantime, as I said, you are being intentionally obtuse.Quote from: magic on October 24, 2024, 10:22:50 amExactly, governments come and go. In 2017 in Germany people got jailed for speaking against one policy. There were elections in the meantime, guess what, the majority shared their though. Now in 2024 the policy has actually changed. So how dare some unelected government worker deciding what's acceptable to say and what isn't? It's never applied across the board, they always cherry pick who gets arrested and who doesn't. It's not a law to improve our lives, it's a tool to target the political opposition.

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 10:49:52 am
content: Quote from: woody on October 24, 2024, 08:21:09 amThat idealogy of words being what they are, have an ability to influence and shape society yada yada yada... is perfectly valid from a societal standpoint... not a **technical one**.An MCU or an ADC does not care, does not have its sentiments hurt if it is called a master or a slave.. similarly a connector does not care if they are labelled male or female.. provided that the design is right... they shall continue to operate and work.This culture of over assigning feelings and sentiments to words, and by extension tainting every idea , concept where the aforementioned words are used, without thinking about the context of their usage is just silly and outright stupid.In this case they are literally used to describe the intended function / operation / role the connectors / mcus / adc whatever are playing as a part of a bigger system.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 10:55:30 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 24, 2024, 10:29:14 amThat's a minor court decision from five years ago. Even judges can make mistakes, they are human. The legal system worked in that case, so I don't see what that demonstrates. Thecase was allowed on appeal. That's your very first example. I've not bothered to check your remainder ones.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 11:23:45 am
content: Quote from: krish2487 on October 24, 2024, 10:49:52 amPrecisely. But the words used to describe their role come from a societal context that is changing all the time. And so the words will also change. Because it is people using them, and not MCUs.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 11:33:30 am
content: Quote from: shabaz on October 24, 2024, 10:55:30 amThis is a BBC article. It's a large profile court case, that happening to send a message. The message is that you better look out what you post, because if the pride police doesn't like what you posted we will arrest you and drag you through court, fine you, jail you.)

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 11:34:33 am
content: Quote from: shabaz on October 24, 2024, 10:55:30 amThis is how these discussions go every time:Giveoneexample;One example is given;That's only aminor caseand doesn't count...Both sides of discussion have a point. One is probably overreacting; heavily extrapolating; as if problems in basic human rights such as freedom of expression automagically imply the count of such events is sharply increases and severity gets worse until we are all locked down in salt mines for our thought crimes. And the other side of discussion is downplaying the concerns. Discussion of these concerns is IMHO important. For example, the mere risk of getting dragged into a long legal process has an effect of self-censorship, even if higher court overrules the decision.Thinking that renaming a candy is stupid is valid; it does not make anyone worth cancelling. Then again renaming the candy also won't be a step to a slippery slop leading to destruction of Good Old Values. It's important to realize: thinking the candydefinitelyneeds renaming, or that itdefinitelyshould not be renamed are equally extreme viewpoints, both equally stupid, and finally, both equally acceptable and fine to have opinions.In these sort of discussion it's kind of funny how similarly "opposite" looking ends behave. There is often exaggerated fear of something, plus attempt to paint the other camp as "bad". Both believe they represent "good" values, but if you ignore the "values" and concentrate on how these people behave against each other, it becomes obvious how nasty they both are.But one thing be careful with: if anyone is strongly hinting about being in fear of violence, without real factual actual proof to back it up, they are, in their minds, preparing into rationalizing their own "proactive" violent actions. Take this seriously; it's a real red flag.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 11:47:16 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 24, 2024, 11:34:33 amThat's not what I said. The court is minor. It's a minor court. There wasn't a jury.The legal system worked, the case was allowed on appeal.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 11:53:09 am
content: Quote from: shabaz on October 24, 2024, 11:47:16 amSo would you be fine with you being dragged into a legal process and after a long time someone says "oh sorry, mistake, all is good"?Be honest. I would not.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 11:57:58 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 24, 2024, 11:33:30 amWhat's the "pride police"? Use proper terms that make sense. The actual police do the arresting.If there's any pride, it is that the rule of law is something you should actually be proud of, which your forefathers created. Real police will get some things wrong, just as you do. They are human. Some people that are innocent will sadly get dragged through the courts. No-one is saying that an error is in any way right or justified.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 11:59:34 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 24, 2024, 11:53:09 amTo answer your question, No, it's completely not fineat all, and I never said that.

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 12:32:43 pm
content: Quote from: woody on October 24, 2024, 11:23:45 amI see your point.. :-) and I agree with the spirit of it.. but the intended usage/role in a technical field does not change over time even if the words change.. as long as the original / initial words continue to exist.. lets just use them..we have already established that inanimate objects have no sense of hurt... so I m pretty sure they will be okay with this..lets just call it.. backwards compatibility.. :-D

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 02:32:32 pm
content: Quote from: woody on October 24, 2024, 08:21:09 amWell that is missing the point. It is not about the candy itself nor that I object to it being renamed. I object the reasons why it is renamed. The word "neger" or "negro" has no ill bearing. It is a valid word to indicate people of a certain race. The fact that it has been abused for ill intent does not make it valid that a word has to be eliminated.Sure things change over time, but at the moment we change things for in my opinion stupid reasons. With the whole social media crap on the internet things are not improving for sure. Take how things at times go wrong when someone posts something on Farcebook about a party and forget that everybody can read it and might show up on that party. Just search the net and you will find examples of this.And why would a "white" person not be able to argue about something like this. We face discrimination just as well. We have feelings and emotions just as well. Yes, I'm Caucasian too, not that it matters though.

author: EggertEnjoyer123
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 03:58:34 pm
content: QuoteI think this is a clear example of a strawman argument. Half of these are illegal regardless of free speech. No one supporting free speech rationally thinks that scamming an old lady out of all her money is free speech because "I told her some stuff on the phone". No one thinks me walking into a bank and saying "I'm going to shoot unless you give me money" is free speech either, even the most ardent supporters of the First Amendment.As for the rest of your argument, it is no better than the argument that anyone who is opposed to mass surveillance by the NSA is "for the terrorists", except in this case it's everyone who is for free speech is "for white supremacists or racists". There are plenty of reasons to oppose mass surveillance that don't include wanting to make it easier for terrorists to blow up cities, and there are plenty of reasons for supporting the 1st Amendment that don't include liking racist people. Such as the fact that our government is not ideal, and tends to expand its power beyond what we give it. The fact that you can't come up with any reason why someone rational would support a view held by a majority of Americans (most Americans support the 1st Amendment), shows that you need to do more research into the other side. There are tons of extremely smart people who support pretty much every side of every issue (except for super fringe ones like flat earth), who would be able to run circles around 99% of opponents. There are plenty of Marxist economics professors who can run circles around 99% of libertarians in a debate, and there's plenty of anarcho capitalist economics professors who can do the same. If you can't argue for your position without assuming that the other side is stupid and evil, I think you aren't arguing in good faith.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 04:09:29 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on October 24, 2024, 02:32:32 pmI see I expressed myself not clearly as I am obviously able to argue about this. What I meant is that it is impossible for me as a white person to get the real feel how it is for someone of color to be confronted with certain aspects of society or language. The word neger might have no ill bearing to me or you, but we cannot say the same for a black person.The reason the Negerzoen is renamed to a Chocozoen is that the word neger is no longer deemed acceptable by society. And I am still baffled by why this is such a hard thing to swallow, especially for people of my generation. I mean the name change, not the Chocozoen itself

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 04:27:03 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 24, 2024, 11:34:33 amThe fact that many need to realize, is that there are authoritarians in all levels, of organization or government, and when they feel empowered to assert their ego (or the auth narcissist does so by necessity of their condition), will do so by increasingly strict decree and violent enforcement (where "violent" is defined by the organization's norms; in this case, we might consider alteration or suppression of speech a degree of violence), thus demonstrating their authority over others -- and their obedience of a higher authority, as the case may be.When this pattern of behavior is recognized, the reason becomes much simpler. There's no Deep State Conspiracy. It's a natural emergent property of psychology applied to groups. Those organizations aren't being controlled entirely democratically, but there is some will of their leadership being imposed. Sometimes that's helpful, sometimes not. It can guide people to a new and interesting, whatever: thought process, set of ideas, technology (including industry groups); or belief, or thoughts entirely. Many of which, are neither good nor bad, but just different (presumably, still interesting enough that the members don't leave, but that's give or take barriers to exit). Sometimes that's perverted into the more seemly aspects we generally associate with cults, where immediate benefits (acceptance, support, socialization) are balanced with various drawbacks (increasing isolation? changing of members' beliefs?), and over time, sunk-cost fallacy becomes reinforced through FOMO, gaslighting and manipulation. Hence, barriers to exit appear.On the state level, we have explicit borders, and movement itself is problematic -- it's not simply your association with a group, but your entire residency and property within those borders, and moving everything elsewhere is literally expensive. The group size is much larger, but so too are barriers to asserting oneself (i.e. varying and watered-down levels of democratic republics), and there is no meaningful alternative -- the barrier to exit is largely insurmountable by the general population.Which is one aspect to understand about the idea of a system of open borders, or borderless entirely. If people had freedom of movement, they would be free to migrate to other, better suited areas, whether driven by explicit political imposition, or lack of economic opportunity. The reality is, cultural differences are still too strong, efforts to integrate / reeducate too weak, plus economic chauvinism (among other extenuating factors i.e. racism, lack of cultural relativity, etc.), have taken precedence today and so borders remain in place.See also HOAs. Many do what they aim to, quietly and satisfactorily; many also obtain leadership such as the above, and arbitrary impositions are made, treasury is siphoned off, and stories are written. You almost never hear stories praising HOAs, partly because it's popular to dig on them, but partly also because it happens less often: the successes are modest and local, unimportant (but no less beneficial). It would be preposterous to abolish HOAs: they aren't an intrinsically bad idea, they're just a thing that can be used for good or evil, and more oversight is necessary to pin down those authoritarian urges where they arise.The same is true, writ large; the solution to government is not its abolition, but its oversight, increasingly keen and fine-grained. It requires a populace interested in holding its leadership accountable, able and willing to demand oversight, and to properly adjudicate violations where they are found, regardless of perpetrator or party.In this thread, and HaD generally, we are seeing this process in action. Debate is being had, and actions determined. Perhaps little will come of it; perhaps they will enforce certain limits on reports (rate limiting per IP, or, actually they probably already had that -- but perhaps temporal clustering to avoid DDoS events, at the expense of some (legitimate) abuses remaining live during such events, say?), perhaps they'll restructure the posting and review process to make it harder to abuse or easier to manage. It's a tricky situation, as it must be; openness is desired, but only to the point where abuse can be restricted.Tim

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 04:32:21 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 24, 2024, 06:35:05 amIf you are arguing that this is related to free speech...My argument is that this is not infringement of free speech, but a simple disagreement between people. Sparkfun et. al. have no power to enforce their opinions on you. There's no judicial branch of Sparkfun as far as I know. If other people happen to agree with them, and also don't agree with you, again, that's a disagreement between people. And, I certainly supportyourright to disagree with them.Do I full-send agree with Sparkfun? I don't know? Sometimes liberals in the US have the habit of speaking for other groups without doing their research, sure. I generally do agree with their intentions, though.But, radical woke mob? I think you've just found people who don't agree with you, and because you seemingly have no willingness to understand their concerns, you ascribe the movement a minimizing name. There is no guarantee that "master/slave" will definitely change to "PICO/POCI"! Adoption is ultimately up to people and companies, and they may very well decide that it's BS and not worth it. But, can you really speak for someone else in saying that something is or isn't offensive? "Trust me, it's not offensive; I've been saying it my whole life" is the argument? And who areyouagain?Regarding languagein particular, I think society is fairly effective at self-regulation, and I do not mean that in a strictly moving-towards-liberalism sense. In my example of using "gay" or "f*g" colloquially, I did not stop using this language because I thought I would go to jail for it. As far as I can tell, that was a personal decision. As far as "good words" and 'bad words", in my opinion, government needn't get involved in direct enforcement, apart from what is clearly hate speech, as in directly inciting violence.I think we are all in agreement that suppression of free speech is a real problem. Plenty examples of government over-stepping to further domestic/foreign policy, criminalizing dissent, or minimizing dissent by conflation of dissent with hate speech, etc. All onboard there. But, feeling backlash in public discourse is not an infringement of free speech.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 04:52:57 pm
content: Quote from: EggertEnjoyer123 on October 24, 2024, 03:58:34 pmIt's the typical behavior. They go immediately to the extremes. If you support free speech than you are immediately a nazi, just like point 1 and 2. There is no rational discussion.And when you point it out: Source? Define X. Jump through hoops. Give me a thousand studies that I deem worthy. Source?And if you do all that, report to moderator button out of frustration, that get's you banned maybe 50% of the time because it's a coin flip that the moderator is also in the same woke religion, and you dared to talk against the dogma.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 07:24:14 pm
content: Note that I find myself preparing for laying down some text...that skirts into potentially unwanted subjects, but it's media and social media related, at least.What does not show up, in some trial Google search Initiated, was the auto-complete when I attempted to search on:Hunter Biden net worth. As there are GUN violations charged...or some plea bargain on the way. My real point being that the news and social media coverage is so shoddy, that other news dominates. I can't find the news, to some degree.Lately, and as trends continue, there is open manipulation of facts and background stories, to the extent of openly stating:"Crowd here today, for town hall discussion,...there will be NO questions from the participants, only pre-arranged.Now, besides violating the definitions, like definition of 'participants', there is more openness, about the format.Next time, or soon, the Town Hall Meeting moderators are going to chastize, saying:"That's not how things work."in defense of the pre-selected dialog to take place.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 10:42:04 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 24, 2024, 11:53:09 amThis is why I am vehemently against any attempt by either the government or any community trying to police my speech or other freedoms.I don't care that it might ultimately be legal and I can win in the court or whatever, being dragged through the process is the punishment.Cancel culture works like this, and the "woke" mob are now starting to find out what that punishment is like as there are more and more examples of them turning on each other, and platforms now banning woke creators as the cultural tide has shifted. A big example is them not being in control of people's ability to use a platform like Twitter/X any more after Elon bought it, a focus on free speech has levelled the playing field as people aren't afraid any more of getting banned for saying the wrong thing.Be careful supporting systems of supression, because one day you might find yourself at the other end of the stick when the cultural winds change.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 10:58:24 pm
content: Quote from: TimNJ on October 24, 2024, 04:32:21 pmI'm guessing you are not aware of the attempts by the "woke mob" to have me cancelled in recent years?Trust me, if I had an ordinary day job, they would have attacked my employers to get me fired, just because they think I'm some "ist" and I don't like or agree with the direction woke culture was going.And it's worse than that, they didn't stop at attacking just me, they started to attack people who were associated with me, and actually got their speaking gigs cancelled. And they threatened to continue to unless they completely denounce and disassociate themselves from me entirely. And they have attacked this forum just because I run it.To this day I think there are still some conferences I might not be welcome to speak at...I'm not arguing that this is a free speech issue per-se, I'm just pointing out that it's an example of potential supression of speech based on fear of the mob, as was so prevailent during "peak woke", especially for prominent people in the industry such as myself. Thankfully we seem to be mostly past that phase now.Anyway, this has been hashed though dozens of times on the forum before. So I'll stop there.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2024, 05:50:01 am
content: Yes it CAN be a big deal, these policies. For example, just let me come in, and start a label for people's wives; I don't know, how about calling all women, 'Tangsombat's angels', and get that into law. I hope that, by now you are realizing what 'forced' means.Yeah no; just a little bitty change, right ?Consequences, when this 'forced' compliance, is violated, in my case was a loss of some material benefits.The agency use, of 'working at home' during COVID, wasn't being practical, and I said so, adding that they were, perhaps too focused on being diverse and bragging about the agency 'diversity'.Notice the comment I made wasn't some outlawed racial comment, or advocacy. Although maybe I did imply that there was too much focus on that.The literal spoken comment was that the agency employees 'bragged' a bit too much..a distraction I felt.That was enough to get banned, and files deleted. They even termed it as 'files were shredded'.So I have victim status, in this war of words, lol.Question about MY skin ?Pound sand, if that's your focus.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2024, 05:53:38 am
content: a deep state conspiracy used to be known as strings and favors (of various flavors)when there is too many you get a 'puppet'It kind of seems like vernacular and metaphor changes but the situation may be similar. Intrinsically it is like determining the time constant of a box car filter.

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2024, 05:01:17 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 24, 2024, 10:58:24 pmYes, extrajudicial takedowns (getting cancelled), especially in the way that it was prevalent 5-7(?) years ago, might have been a net negative. I again believe the original intentions were good, but the execution got muddled by people's own egos and narcissism. And, the lasting effects of reckless defamation (on those wrongfully indicted) is obviously not good. I also think there was societal pushback on this approach in the last few years. Or at the very least, the momentum of it died down considerably. So, in a sense, public discourse largely did put this to an end.I'll cautiously agree with you in calling this the movement the "woke mob" for lack of a better term. But, we were talking about OSHWA/Sparkfun et. al. suggesting a name change, nothing to do with defamation of character or personally getting cancelled. Putting OSHWA (and their relatively tame idea) on the same level as people making personal attacks is not accurate or fair. This is again the normal push-and-pull and exchange of new ideas in society. Until something becomes strictly personal, then the "woke mob" has nothing to do with it. If you want to clump people who don't agree with you into a nameless, faceless group with a catchy name, then who is really the bully here? (Applies both ways, by the way. I equally can't stand the snooty MSNBC pundits and their little smirks.) But, the trite name-calling is totally out of control, and does not seem to work in shifting opinions in either direction. It's subversive and undermines/minimizes legitimate concern, and until we are able to find the humanity in each other, we are going to be stuck in this f*cked loop for the foreseeable future.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2024, 08:47:57 pm
content: I must preface this, as I have not read all of last post. But, respectfully:The things you mention are not 5 to 7 years ago. Far from it, those nasties are increasing and venturing into (even) MORE violence, or so-called violent rhetoric.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2024, 09:24:34 pm
content: For TimNJ, part of my approach is in an academic sense, self-fielding my own questions, on how does a particular political player, or play, think and perceive.One of those observations, is an odd sort of 'leakage' where one 'side' or camp starts to adopt an approach that mimics the 'competition'.To explain; (without partisan terms), say one side advocates eating M&Ms for many years. The, uh, opposing camp suddenly starts to advocate that as well, which would not usually cause any extra attention, but does create some attention and speculation due it being a fairly extreme change, from past policies.That can really muddy the waters, when BOTH sides of an issue, are taking similar attitudes...or at least publicly.Maybe a better way to say that is, when dogs and cats live together, but the cats are barking and claiming to be dogs. The observer has to expend a lot of extra energy, just to discern true nature of BOTH.That's appearing to be tactical.When a repetitive action comes, with duplicate words and attitudes, from all sorts of people, then yes, a person starts using the label of them being a 'mob'.Ah, but then the requests come in, for you to argue that 'mob' term itself is not valid.Those that deal with 'mob' action aren't too keen on defending that there even is...(mob presence.)

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2024, 09:44:54 pm
content: Quote from: RJSV on October 25, 2024, 09:24:34 pmI'm having a little bit of hard discerning your point. But, I am not arguing that the mob does not exist.I am suggesting to be careful with who you mentally assign to the mob. Mob mentality/action is dangerous, but it's equally dangerous to convince yourself that everyone who doesn't agree with you must also be the mob. McCarthyism, etc. etc.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2024, 12:34:33 am
content: NO, and no offense issued here.I'm saying that virtually the first thing, is a person has to 'prove' the whole mob terminology, before anything said is going to be accepted. Invalid, until proven.Of course I've seen folks making accusations all over the map.But when I went into a clothing store, WEARING A BLANK, TAN COLORED HAT, I got some very unsavory language...and that was from the Security Guard.Point being, that MOB, yes, mob is obsessed with making sure no one wearing a hat reading, in my word substitution, wearing a hat reading'Lets eat M&Ms'.It's a monolithic MOB, saying identical things and asserting that such and such will cost us dearly, if we tolerateSorry, can't go further into literal answers, it's not good to get into a few categories, on this technical oriented web site. It risks pissing off members, here.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2024, 12:58:59 am
content: Oops, I accidently posted this next response, in the Projects / artasrobot thread.Going to take a bit, to move that over here...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2024, 01:24:45 am
content: Quote from: TimNJ on October 25, 2024, 09:44:54 pmThe "woke mob" is obvious and 100% quantifiable, no need to lup just anyone who disagrees with you into it. The "woke mob" are the ones that "pile on" and vilify and attack someone for having an opinion or view that they don't agree with. They are ones that call you an "-ist" or "-phobe". They are the ones that contact you employer to get you fired. They are the ones that DDOS your website. They are ones that attack your friends just for being associated with you.They will let you know exactly who they are, they are'nt shy about it, especially during the "peak woke" era where all of the platforms held the same views and defended them, banning creators at the mere wiff of a problem. e.g. the era of Twitter hiring Anita Sarkeesian for the Trust & Safety council at peak Gamergate.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2024, 01:36:14 am
content: They are "fighting hate", don't you know?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2024, 01:37:22 am
content: Quote from: TimNJ on October 25, 2024, 05:01:17 pmYouimaginedthat I'm relating it to free speech, I'm not. It's possible to have two diffrerent discussions going on in the same thread.QuoteAgain, it's clear you didn't live this. If you were vocally against this push to change naming conventions then you were quickly labelled an "-ist" and shunned by these groups. Worse if you were a high profile person in the industry.QuoteThis end of the "woke" era didn't just happen on its own, it was countless people, and in particular high profile people slowing speaking up against it and taking the hits and surviving (barely) until, bit by bit, Joe Average saw that it was now safe to actually speak up against things.It took Elon Musk buying Twitter.QuoteNo, but I'm willing to bet there would still be public backlash if I tried to speak at the OSHW conference for example.To this very day (to bring it back on topic), if one my videos is published on Hackaday then there are a flurry of commenters who say "why are you promoting this -ist -phobe piece of shit?"QuoteI literally told you a personal story of how I was personally attacked by a "mob", and how my friends and collegues were personally attacked for just being associated with me, the point of having their talks cancelled.If I had a normal job with a boss, then they would have got me fired, no doubt about it.I lived the "woke mob" attacks.And I replied to another post with how I define the "woke mob", I don't just lump anyone who disagrees with me into it. If I did, this forum would be a very different place for starters.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2024, 02:46:14 am
content: I HAD wanted to comment, but stupidly posted over in the projects section...duhhh.So, I know the difference, for sure. There isn't some 'woke' person hiding behind every tree, to try to get me...that's clearly not every irritation being from a self-appointed activist.But wanting to scrutinize my story, and virtually demanding 'proof' at every turn gets my attention, as I start to think the person is going to deny any woke mob action is exactly that.A self-appointed activist, messing with my benefits simply due to criticism is not a mild, perceived harm.If you'll excuse an extreme example, I know that in the distant past, a rape victim often got questions about whether or not it happened, for sure. That is, of course way more troubling than my own loss (a couple of perks from Disability counselors).Funny, I'm a bit surprised that those shenanigans have lessened. But, even today, Oct 25th2024, I get to defend whether or not 'things happened', before discussion can proceed.

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2024, 03:04:31 am
content: I was really not arguing with or doubting your personal experience. I am not also trying to gaslight you about that either. I think I was pretty sympathetic to those affected in my posts.People (a mob) tried to cancel you, and made unsubstantiated/nefarious claims about you. I believe you.I was really talking about the example you gave regarding OSHWA...You suggest that this is the doing of a mob...perhaps by the same types who tried to cancel you? While it is easy to prove that you have been personally attacked, to assert that the OSHWA thing is mob derived is tricky. Do we really know that? If we don't, is it really fair to say that is *is*?If the public becomes convinced that something is the work of a mob, credibility of the thing is lost, because mobs are not rational, so the thing cannot be rational either. So, calling something mob-derived, when it *probably* isn't, is the issue I have.Of course, any debate on "mobs" will be deeply biased by one's own definition of a mob, and personal leanings, so this discussion probably has no good resolution. So, it's been a good talk everyone!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2024, 03:08:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 24, 2024, 10:42:04 pmFollowing the money, many scandals could be probably charged with racketeering or fraud: Black Lives Matter, Sweet Baby Inc, Antifa, Ibrahim Kendi's Research centre, and some more recent as Queer Works...But all that started slow but steady, as these activists (a.k.a. "woke mob") came out of the woodworks and gained ground by putting massive pressure and threats to defame individuals or organizations via social media for the sake of conformity to their spiel. Those bastards would make mobsters proud.I am really glad these tides are turning and more people and organizations are scoffing at those attempts of irrestrict censorship.Elon Musk did more for free speech in these past years than anyone else.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2024, 04:48:41 am
content: Quote from: TimNJ on October 26, 2024, 03:04:31 amI never meant to imply the OSHWA or Sparkfun or Make etc are the "woke mob", I was just using the example of the master/slave naming thing as an example of something I hated about one aspect of free speech, and that is trying to control other people's speech by wanting to redfine innocent words that have been used for generations in the industry.The links to those sites are only for the benefit of those who don't know what all the hoopla was about at the time.People (individuals) were using the, shall we call it "hysteria", around the master/slave and other renaming of things at the time as, shall we call it "ammunition", to then attack people who spoke up against the change.Same thing happened in the software community.When you personally have hundreds or thouands of people attacking you and people associated with you, that's a "mob", I'm not making this up. Please stop trying to define what you think "the mob" is, I don't need a lecture on it, I have lived it.I will not speak more on this matter, it's been done to death on here before, I'm done.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2024, 04:53:02 am
content: Oh yeah Twitter that bastion of freedom,https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/26/24255298/elon-musk-x-blocks-jd-vance-dossierElon is a notorious narcissist building a vast (mostly bot automated) echo chamber around his fragile ego -- no amount of money or praise can or will heal his soul, but he doesn't know anything else, and so it goes at everyone else's expense.Not to mention putting vast support behind a presidential candidate that is a proven felon and rapist. An act alone that a perceptive, moral person would fully condemn him for...Tim

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2024, 04:57:52 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on October 26, 2024, 04:53:02 amYou have been duped. That was blocked for the reason of doxing. The document contained personal information that was not redacted. Direct from the X team:https://x.com/Safety/status/1839392663864549688

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2024, 10:11:02 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 26, 2024, 03:08:20 amQuote from: T3sl4co1l on October 26, 2024, 04:53:02 amAre these mutually exclusive?

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2024, 04:49:20 pm
content: That terminology, of 'MOB' is only loosely used as it doesn't include unruly teams combing through the streets, in some dystopian Mad Max movie.It's more a reference to loosely organized individuals, with the quality of speaking and acting almost the same. Ironically, NOW we talk about speech of the free speech opponents.Simple simple simple test, of my convictions here, would be to engage the similar subject, of Google Auto-complete (algorithms).Simple test I tried, for any indication of Google partisanship, was to test auto-complete on 'Hunter Biden' net worth.I wanted to do some simple comparisons.Oh gee; I got all the way up to:'Hunter Biden Net W', and no auto-complete active on that fragment.Easy test, you can do it at home in, 35 seconds.So, a high tech company can be a part of a Woke Mob, in that sense...not breaking windows or burning things...

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2024, 04:59:31 pm
content: It didn't take much, to test auto-complete:Search box on 'Donald'Vs.Search box on 'Hunter B';I got straight to Donald Trump with full screen of info.Not so with Hunter B.There I got some fantasy role play game dealing with 'Owls' and other players.Google don't know about current events ?

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2024, 06:09:36 pm
content: 'The OWL House' is the fantasy role play game that comes up, under Google.Plus, sometimes (my) tests come up with'Hunter B' as some sort of Russian military vehicle or troop transport.Ironically, this Android phone (Alcatel) will make it's own auto-complete, just above the screen powered keyboard, same row as the microphone ICON. Surprise surprise (no, not really); I'm noting that the spelling hints given have no problem doing a separate auto-complete, one that seems to know a thing or two.Maybe some day, a couple of the Google algorithm coders will 'come forward' with their own story.Now, I have no substantial beef with any particular player in all this. It just isn't rightWe have a couple of Forum members attempting to evaluate this subject fairly, I know they've been trying (thanks).We have the giant software and media company, maybe not so conscientious, but time will tell. I'm not going to get too distracted into hate filled rhetoric, besides I hear that's unhealthy.My approach involves setting a few time limits and providing at least some learning experience, while in limited distraction mode.Ultimately though, I'd rather be reading about Quantum physics, and materials science, here.We need about another 5 clones of member Nominal Animal. I mean, wow, someone that has such talent in physics, and associated code writing. Another under-appreciated science enthusiast, here.But, readers, please try your 'autocomplete' function...that's one avenue of manipulation to be aware of...going forward.- - - Rick B.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2024, 06:35:39 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on October 26, 2024, 04:53:02 amClassic woke mob postIncludes a mandatory -ist qualifier.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2024, 07:09:52 pm
content: Yeah but the other Tim, here, has been trying to be fair, and that's good enough for the short term.I literally have shocked myself, at how blatant the openly biased searches were, today !There does seem to be more lack of concealment lately. It's unbelievably easy to spot the, uh, doodoo on the carpet.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2024, 02:22:34 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 26, 2024, 04:57:52 amAs Dave pointed out, this is a manipulation of the truth but I fully support your right to say it. That is how free speech works and no police will knock at your door for posting that.The grift is up. People with a pair of eyes and two functional brain cells are not buying what these grifters and manipulators are selling anymore. That is the reason why "freeing the bird" was so valuable for free speech.The opinion video below from Konstantin about the effects of bad policies in societiesandwhen they turn into a profitable racket is quite pertinent for the discussion.As for the other comments about morale and such, including the typical "-ist", history of mankind is built and progresses with imperfect people.Also, you don't have to dig too deep at the past of the other running contender and see what morally despicable methods she used during her stunts in the DA's office or how inept she was during her 3-1/2 years in office.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2024, 12:37:00 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 28, 2024, 02:22:34 pmTo bring it back to our industry for a minute, it was very interesting to watch the numbers of electronics people on Twitter flock to Mastodon when Elon took over, it was huge. Well, it seemed huge anyway, I'd be very interested to know the percentage. I had countless people say "I had to go to Mastodon because that's where all the electronics people I follow went".Twitter was the best thing ever until Elon bought it, for *insert reason here*I do wonder how Mastodon is working out for them?

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2024, 01:01:15 am
content: Quote from: m k on October 26, 2024, 10:11:02 amNo. I think the first one is actually wrong. But that's just my opinion of someone else's opinion. And Elon Musk is, well it is hard to fathom his recent antics. Super weird. I never would have expected to see him jumping around on stage at a political rally even one year ago. I wonder if he will go full Howard Hughes in the next five years.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2024, 01:27:51 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 29, 2024, 12:37:00 amI think a lot came back.My Twitter feed is *seriously* busy these days. I used to be able to read everyone I followed in maybe 30 minutes a day. In early August I got five days behind in my reading and it took me 2 1/2 months to catch up. Well, and then I've gotten almost two days behind again now. It was never like this before. And I follow fewer than 400 people, have been trimming that back, and turning off seeing retweets for a lot of people too. It's just crazy.If people have gone, I'm not missing them.I sure as heck don't have time and bandwidth to add Mastodon or Bluesky or Threads or Lemmy.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2024, 02:39:06 am
content: If there is anything I've learned, it the 'sameness' argument, which isn't a point directly in response to people posting here, lately. In risk of sounding incoherent, I'd offer that even the 'sameness' responses can be lopsided, in application.That means that one player or another gets into the weeds, and lays out an argument that has a fairly good outcome, in terms of having an informal advantage or to use common language a person could say they've 'won' the little argument.They've locked down that. But, then, other 'player' starts up with the 'other side is same way', making statements backing their own, often faulty observation that the opposition is, (wait for it) 'same'...in other words now you've got another claim, but this time it's all over the map and factually deralick, and easily provable as such.That's not equivalent even though declared so, and the common language says that's not a clear (argument) 'win', even though paraded about as such. It's not balanced or symmetrical.But the second side in this is, clearly not arguing to any clear 'win', rather it shows as a tactic, muddying the waters so to speak.Now, my preferred term, to 'player' is 'party', but only in the context of contender, (to avoid obvious direct reference to contemporary elections).That claim of 'sameness' is a bit of a flimsy facade, often, especially in politics.You make the argument, against one player, and soon, the 'sameness' claims start flying, in apparent lock-step reaction.You make the claim that 'Martians' kill people, and back it up pretty well. Next thing you know, you start hearing about "Well, Jupiter people are killers too", but this time argued with some pretty faulty-ass argument.It's asymmetrical but still often succeeds, in muddying the waters, just enough to neutralize the valid side to an extent.And a pisser to engage that way.

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2024, 07:05:06 pm
content: Maybe a bit late to bring this up, but back on the very frst initial topic of this thread:Are there any other sites similar to hackaday, I must confes I find it useful as a place to browse for random technical ideas and for introductions to technical techniques I hadn't thought of before. Also perhaps, sites like hackaday, but less concerned with being a "goody two shoes" when it comes to matters which have become politicised. For example I get the perception that hackaday's editors have a bit of a disapproval for the likes of Edward Snowden and Julian Assange, and while their sort of privacy focused computer work isn't really so applicable to the low level electronics tinkering that hackaday is mainly build on, that editorial attitude feels a bit iffy, whitewashed corporate attitude sort of thing, a "don't speak good words of people the mainstream media doesn't like". And hackaday spent the pandemic treating the horror show of digital ID cards (what a vaccine passport actually is) as a perfectly normal thing, and thinking it fun when people made a fancy wallet to hold a QR code which bound them in to a checkpoint dystopia. And hackaday won't openly talk of mass defiance against consumer-abusing DRM when DMCA provisions are in support of that DRM, they talk right to repair alright but not so much about grabbing that right by technical means. They clearly know the readers, rightly, don't respect it when DMCA tries to stop users controlling their own property, but being too mainstream and corporate an organisation obviously don't feel confident openly advocating the breaking of silly rules. And hackaday had articles which put a positive spin on censorship and on de-anonymisation of social media users.Are there any other sites similar to hackaday, and equally prolific in terms of rate of "articles" (well pointers to other people's videos or articles) per week, which either take a totally non-politics attitude and stay well away from any articles touching on politicised matters, or take a more classical-cyber-libertarian attitude to it when an article touches those sort of topics?My preference would be for written articles (images plus text) being linked to rather than always linking to videos.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 02:32:32 am
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on October 29, 2024, 07:05:06 pmIf you care about that sort of thing, it's no secret that Hackaday is (was?) generally regarded as a bit "woke". AFAIK though they haven't flouted it much unlike say AdafruitThe current Editor in Chief has pronouns in his bio FWIW.Hackaday was pro master/slave name change.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 02:38:18 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 30, 2024, 02:32:32 amSeems like they are a bit bored and need more to do. I wonder how they feel about male/female connectors.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 02:45:46 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 30, 2024, 02:38:18 am"Oh, that's so binary gender biased: we prefer to call them 'concave' and 'convex'."

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 07:00:17 am
content: This reminds me, of one timely thing to say, regarding some of the current expressions, that we are 'past the worst' of the whole 'woke-tard' movements:The folks thinking these things up have, actually, placed the players they need, hence the comment about hackaday leader 'pronouns'.Deliberately and strategically placed, IMO.LIBRARY here has gone through that revision of mission, as it began a whole series of, shockingly inappropriate 'Drag Queen Shows' and other local library LNQBQ 'Book Author Day's.(And I've worked in various gay person settings, in San Francisco no less!)The older school gays weren't really in your face, and I enjoyed the workplace diversity...compared to older, stuffy office settings.So it was/is a bewildering and unforseen 'push', to do the 'Chip on my shoulder thing', a Library personell 'revolution' of sorts.Point is this is TODAY, not some stale, funny crapola.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 07:14:25 am
content: Quote from: RJSV on October 30, 2024, 07:00:17 amI'm not sure if I quite make the cut of an "old school gay" just yet, but even my friends and I who are of similar persuasion and in their 30's are sick of hearing about this crap. I would suggest 95% of people in Australia couldn't care less who you sleep with or are at least indifferent, there's no need to continually shove it down peoples' throats (kek).We draw the line of being able to identify as a paper bag or a unicorn.Anyway, let's not get all political, just saying, the gays seem to be supporting the views of the heteosexuals these days. Isn't that all people want? To be ignored like the rest of society?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 08:46:22 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 30, 2024, 02:32:32 amEveryone on the Adafruit Discord team has their pronouns listed. I asked a technical question from them (circuitpython) and one responder was complaining that I didn't list it, and they had no idea how to refer to me. On discord, where @tszaboo gets you a notification. Imagine pushing political agenda on you after asking a technical question.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 09:09:36 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 30, 2024, 07:14:25 amHeh; I always think if I were somehow appointed the Ayatollah in charge of everyone, one of the first things I'd do would be to legalize gay marriage (in places where it's outlawed), by saying "Well, of course everyone should have the same right to make their life miserable!".

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 09:12:37 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 30, 2024, 08:46:22 amI'll give them an A for taking their wokeness seriously.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 10:13:47 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 30, 2024, 02:38:18 amHermaphroditic connectors are convenient for obvious reasons, but are usually expensive. The only ones I have are GR874

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 10:19:26 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 30, 2024, 08:46:22 amOh dear Dog.I'd probably list it as "their/your". And give my name as "Twatty MacTwatFace"

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 10:34:20 am
content: Lolin the last few days some person at Hackaday has been commenting under Dave Jones's name (clearly a troll from the content)initially using eevblog as link on their name, later ones with goatse or other shock siteshttps://hackaday.com/2024/10/29/asahi-linux-brings-better-gaming-to-apple-silicon/#comment-8056027That's clearly not daveQuote from: EEVblog on October 30, 2024, 02:32:32 amas i recall that there was some drama regarding the resign of last editor in chief

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 10:41:37 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on October 30, 2024, 09:09:36 amGetting married is no more of a choice than running Windows. There are other options out there.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 11:52:14 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 30, 2024, 10:41:37 amThe concept of marriage itself is a weird mixture of "decorative" tradition and legal agreements. Such legal agreements can be, in most places, already made without the "tradition" part due to another more generic concept offreedom of agreement. One's own new traditions can be, then again, freely defined by anyone in most countries.It is not surprising to see backlash when asking changes for a specific already-existing tradition from those who like to keep said traditions as-is, and there is no obligation of society to adjust their traditions when requested, exactly because one is free to define their own traditions and ceremonies exactly as they wish (in most places, that is).The key issue is people being conformists to the point that one is treated weirdly when they don't follow the traditions. People should say "fuck this system, I do whatever I want", but instead people choose to accept the conformism and try to fine-tune the system from inside. Which results in backlash because there will be a disagreement if a system should be changed or not. Which is normal.In other words: consider fork instead of wondering why your pull request is not accepted.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 11:58:43 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 30, 2024, 10:41:37 amWell, it is and it isn't. People like me don't have much respect for the institution of marriage: not against it, but I don't see it as an essential pillar of human society or anything. As you say, more like deciding which OS to use.On the other hand, a lot of people here on Earth take marriage very seriously and see it as a sacred bond which needs protection from barbaric forces. So there's a spectrum of opinion there. And who can categorically say that all those people are wrong?

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 12:05:18 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 30, 2024, 11:52:14 amOnly problem is that when you do you might run a risk to get banned from 'Github'....

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 05:48:00 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 30, 2024, 08:46:22 amIt's not about politics or ideology for me: I genuinely have problems with grammatical gender, as my native language has none and I prefer to just skip the entire thing in English by usingtheyeven for singular.In colloquial Finnish, it is common to useit("se") for everything from inanimate things to humans. (Typical example: They went to the bathroom ="Se meni vessaan.") Some people insist on usingthem("hän") for their pets, and get offended if you useitas for ordinary animals, because they feel it makes them less than persons. Me, I tend to useitfor everybody, and most animals are very happy to interact with me (or my hands and fingers, to be specific; both pets and domestics, and in certain cases even wild animals), and don't care what words I use, because they seem to find me easy to "read". Humans, in comparison, are weird and difficult, and I often fail with them, no matter how hard I try. In face-to-face discussion my body language reaction is so immediate and obvious that most humans forgive me my gaffes immediately, unless their ideology forbids them. Most people also tend to find me easy to "read" and seem to be delighted to interact with me face-to-face, as far as I can determine (so not very far!) from repeated interactions. (Funnily enough, I tend to interact well even with very religious people, even though my own attitude is best described as agnostic. For example, I don't mind my actions being judged at all, as long as the judgment is donefairly. Fairness is absolutely crucial to me, though. It probably helps that I always apply it first to my own behaviour, with less strict demands/rules for others' behaviour.)I do get called "racist" surprisingly often, even though I find the entire concept utterly ridiculous: to me, claiming that a person has intrinsic worth different to that of myself makes absolutely no sense, and emotionally feels similar to someone claiming they have psychic powers. White supremacism, or exceptionalism in general, is in my opinion utter nonsense without any logical or rational basis. If anything, I'm egalitarian to the core, with a very strong emphasis on fairness in all interactions. Usually, it is really that those people find my egalitarian attitude unacceptable, and prefer a group identity based one instead, with no further arguments left but to label me a bad person whose opinions and logic should be ignored.I do not mind that SparkFun and Adafruit and others have stopped using MISO and MOSI in relation to SPI. It is absolutely fine in my opinion, because after all, they are businesses/organizations where end user interaction is paramount. The problem is when my projects, my output, is rejected simply because I did not use the required terms. And that obviously extends to everyone else, too. (I really get angry about shunning/exclusion for unfair reasons.)That is, it is the forced speech that is most problematic to me; and not because of ideology, but because I am aware of and suffer from personal limitations regarding such language. Lack offairness–– especially when some words are acceptable or unacceptable depending on the group membership of the utterer –– is an even bigger problem for me personally. It is not a learned or acquired feature or ideology, though; we know from animal experiments that it is deep biological/physiological one, observed in many animals as well, and not at all unique to us humans. Thus, in my opinion, fairness should be more important than ideological reasoning. Only practical reasons should ever overrule basic/fundamental fairness.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 09:51:46 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on October 30, 2024, 10:34:20 amYep, not me.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 10:16:00 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 30, 2024, 09:51:46 pmIf you can estimate the number of "real" David Jones in the world, then (assuming the Hackaday commentator really is a D Jones!), we can estimate the probability that the "other" D Jones is you.That's the same kind of calculation that demonstrates that (in the UK population 65e6), a "one in a million chance" of a DNA match means the probability of a innocence is actually >98% (1-64/65). Bayes Rulez!FFI, understand the "Prosecutor's Fallacy", e.g.https://rss.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1740-9713.2015.00839.x

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 10:51:05 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 30, 2024, 10:16:00 pmDid you miss the "using eevblog as link"?That cuts the odds down a bit.Some monkee business going on there, arrrrrrrr.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2024, 12:23:20 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 30, 2024, 10:16:00 pmVery good stuff there. Unfortunately, it's beenyearsdecades since I took statistics, and 99.9% of it has evaporated out of my head. Still worth reading.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2024, 12:40:00 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on October 31, 2024, 12:23:20 amFirst level stats classes mention means, standard deviations, erf() and the like, but avoid mentioning the subtle differences between how stats is used by thetypesof statitician. The Bayesian statiticians claim, with some cause, that non-Bayesian statiticians occasionally almost re-invent Bayes' theorem without realising it.FFIhttps://www.amazon.co.uk/Everything-Predictable-Remarkable-Theorem-Explains/dp/139960404Xwhich is good but somewhat long-winded.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2024, 12:54:59 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 31, 2024, 12:40:00 amAll of that was waaaaaay beyond the scope of the class I took; it was a requirement for a business degree (BSBA). We spent a lot of time on things like ANOVA and sampling methodology. Good intro but certainly not a rigorous deep-dive.