Want to Build a Quiet Computer - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 01:28:50 pm
content: I'm in the process of piecing together a computer on PCpartpicker.com and having difficulty with quiet cooling.I don't do gaming, but will do things like PCB layout, 3D drawings, and basically know that if I buy mediocre, in a year it will be slow. Whenever I buy a new PC (which isn't often), I always spend the extra few hundred dollars for the higher end stuff in order to avoid it becoming outdated quicker.Initially I wanted a water cooled CPU cooler, but those are around 36db. When I add a video card with two and three fans, plus the power supply fan, I'm wondering if this will be too loud.My current PC was built in 2006, it has one PS fan, one for the cpu, one for the video card, and a case fan. The thing sounds like a jet engine. Unless I've mis-counted, my PC has a total of four fans.If I buy a system with two fans for the CPU, two or three for the video card, power supply fan, case fan, and water pump should I go water cooled CPU, this will be more fans than I have now indicating it should be louder.Am I better off going with a traditional CPU mounted non-water cooled cooler? They look dangerously heavy and I fear they may crack the PCB, so it's one reason I was leaning towards a 240mm dual fan water cooler.Also, just how loud are the new fans? Is a 36db CPU water cooled cooler loud, or do they only ramp up to 36db under loads and then cut back?

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 01:42:49 pm
content: What exactly what are you using now? Modern PCs are fairly quiet and all fans will adjust according to load.I have an i5-3570 with a GTX- 1050 Ti video card. It sits under the TV in the living room. The only time I hear anything is while playing more demanding games which cause the fan on the video card to spin up (Fallout 4, Witcher 3, etc).

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 02:02:43 pm
content: Thankfully it is nowmucheasier to find quiet cooling components than it was in 2006.In fact almost everything is way quieter than it was back then.It's hard to know exactly what to recommend though without knowing your budget and CPU preference.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 02:07:58 pm
content: It's a system built at a store.I'm going by memory, but it's an Intel probably 3.6GHz, 3GB RAM, a cheap video card (the old one died about a year ago), and a basic computer case.When I first got it, the case had three fans (one on top, side, and rear), since then, I disconnected all but one. Any current running fans never change speed, they remain the same regardless of load.Do all fans change speed? Most I see are rated at one dB number, so I don't know if they vary speed and that's a maximum, or if it's that noise level all the time.Also, does a system exist where one cooler can cool both CPU and video card? This way instead of having two fans for a water cooled CPU and three for a high end video card, it can have three fans and/or a larger amount of water thus reducing the overall number of fans.As for my budget, I don't really have one. At one point the entire system was about $2300, and I was willing to spend that, but others said I was going overboard.I'm looking at the Intel 9700 i7, a video card around $350, plenty of RAM, and basically I don't want to go so overboard that it's a waste, and I'm running extra fans for no reason.I almost never play games (nor do I own any), but will do PCB layout and maybe Solid Works, along with other stuff.

author: tunk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 02:24:52 pm
content: There are fanless ATX PSUs, and are you sure you need a dedicated graphics card?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 02:28:18 pm
content: Get a higher end workstation from Dell and be done with it. Some people will likely disagree but the thermal & airflow design of Dell's higher end workstations are better than you can achieve using standard components. I have a Dell Precision Tower T5810 (which is a couple of years old now so there will be newer models) and it is super quiet. It doesn't suck much air in so it also has less dust building up inside as well.Using an SSD for primary storage and low RPM hard drive for secondary reduces the noise a lot too.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 02:33:22 pm
content: I know when it comes to computers, everyone will have an opinion.I'm more focused on just what 36db for a fan will sound like and whether it's a continuous 36db and/or whether it normally runs slower under less load.As for a dedicated graphics card, why not? I'll want to watch videos, 3D graphics, etc...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 02:38:43 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on June 18, 2020, 01:28:50 pmYou don't need 2 fans for CPU, Decent CPU cooler with 120/140mm fan, 120/140mm case fan(s) and appropriate fan speed bios settings will do the job (unless you buy a 32 core CPU). As of PSU, you can buy models which stop their fan when power consumption is low. Decent graphics cards are silent enough even under load, many stop their fans when idle. What you need to avoid are fans with motor noise, it's something like buzzing. Delta fans are notorious for it. Also noise figures do not mean much because motherboard should regulate fan speeds anyway.Water cooling does not provide lower noise or lower temperatures. It only adds a pump noise, quite limited lifespan and possibility of leakage.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 02:43:58 pm
content: Look at the fans leads, variable speed fans have 3 wires typically. Maybe you got cheaper non-variable speed 2-wire fans. The sockets on the motherboard must support variable speed fans and have thermal sensors across the board, you may need to check the motherboard user manual for information on fan features.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 03:10:00 pm
content: Have you seen this site?https://silentpcreview.com/

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 03:21:15 pm
content: Use Noctua fans, anywhere a fan is necessary it's extremely quiet, Also use watercooler, and no hard drive only SSD, this will decrease the noise to a very low level

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 03:24:16 pm
content: Four 23dBA fans are quieter than a single 30dBA fan. Remember that the decibel scale is logarithmic. Using more fans can get you better airflow and pressure differential than using fewer fans; it depends on the purposes and placement. I usually use at least four (all 120mm+) in my "silent" builds.Fan inside the enclosure can be louder than fans pulling in or pushing out air from the enclosure, because a lot of the noise is absorbed. Foam noise absorbers can make a significant difference on plain metal panels. Foam with a heavy rubber (2-3mm, or 1/16" to 1/8") sheet and an adhesive backing not only absorbs noise inside the enclosure, but also absorbs any conducted noise in the metal sheet.Larger fans rotate at lower RPMs (at similar airflow and pressure differential), giving them a noise spectrum with lower motor whine. It is nowadays easy to find 120mm and larger fans that are basically silent at 900 RPM and higher, with very considerable airflow. (The exact fan type I'd recommend depends on if you have a pressure differential or not: curved blade designs often yield a better pressure differential, but sparse blade designs better airflow when the pressure differential is minimal.)Better large fans noise is dominated with turbulent airflow noise ("whoosh"). Smaller fans, with their higher RPMs, have noticeable motor whine ("eeeeeeeee").Personally, I've found that the motor whine tends to irritate me at or above 1000 RPM; many different makes and models of 120mm+ fans at 800-900 RPM feel "silent" to me.It is possible to cushion fans to reduce their noise even further. Soft silicone grommets instead of metal screws can make a big difference. I've experimented with self-made soft foam "fan holders", and while they work amazingly well, they're an utter pain in the butt to make.Inside the enclosure, you want turbulent airflow in general, but laminar airflow through cooling fins (and heat-generating surfaces). Plastic shrouds work well. I use silicone gasket material between the shroud and the enclosure, to absorb any vibration (and stopping it being conducted to the enclosure). The same stuff can be used to absorb conducted noise between openable panels. Low modulus neutral cure would be optimal, but can be hard to obtain; I've even used the engine sealant kid with acceptable results.Experience indicates that even when the motherboard is mounted vertically, a 850g (almost 2 pound) 140mm tall heatsink with a backer plate on the backside of the motherboard, is unlikely to crack the PCB. Not only does the backer plate help, but the PCB is also mounted with many (6-12) screws to a metal plane, forming a sandwich structure that is surprisingly rigid.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 03:26:19 pm
content: Well, $2300 is a fair budget these days.To be honest though I think it is quite hard to build a noisy PC with modern desktop components.Yes, fixed speed fans were common in 2006 vintage machines, everything is variable speed these days - either 4-wire with PWM control or 3 (or even 2) wire with DC voltage control, and even spinning at the same speed modern fans are quieter.CPU - go with i7-10700k or, better, Ryzen 7 3700X (same bang, less bucks compared with the Intel chip) or Ryzen 9 3900X (same bucks, more bang).The bundled coolers with Ryzen are said to be fine if you don't want to overclock.Graphics - well, you don't game so most GPU cards will be overkill but for that budget you could go for either an AMD 5700XT or a Nvidia RTX 2070 - unless you put a heavy load on the GPU card you won't hear the fans.Oh, to answer your question, 36dB is more-or-less inaudible in all but the quietest environments.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 03:26:41 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on June 18, 2020, 01:28:50 pmYou probably don't need a dedicated video card or just about any low end one with passive cooling will do.Quote from: bostonman on June 18, 2020, 01:28:50 pmOkayGet:- whatever CPU you want under 120W TDP- a 120mm tower cooler like Zalman Performa (I use this one, it works, PCB slightly bends but no problems for years, certainly don't drop the computer on the floor, though)- a quiet 4-wire CPU fan from reputable manufacturer capable of up to 1000~1500RPM (look for objective reviews, forum posts, etc, not specs)- a motherboard with thermal CPU fan speed control (these days it's probably just about any one) and preferably case fan speed control (this may be a premium feature)- preferably a large case, preferably with the PSU drawing air from outside- some 140mm case fan or two, maybe 600~800RPM, will depend on availability of case fan thermal control- a known quiet PSU (reviews, not marketing specs)- organize all internal cables so they don't block airflowMy system like above is only slightly audible when idle and still very quiet and nonannoying at full load.Forget WC, spend the money of a fanless PSU if you have too much.editThere are also "fanless" CPU heatsinks, don't remember what their capabilities are but might be worth looking into. They rely only on airflow of the case fans and convection.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 03:36:06 pm
content: Quote from: ebclr on June 18, 2020, 03:21:15 pmYes to Nocuta - but they are not the only quiet fans. If by "SSD" you are including NVMe then yes but I would not put a SATA SSD as the boot disk in a new build, and certainly not anything with spinning platters.Water cooling though - can't see the point unless it's an enthusiast rig.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 04:38:37 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on June 18, 2020, 01:28:50 pmthats because all those 14years old fan's bearing went dry and mad. recently i "overhauled" my 10years old PC (due to PSU replacement) cleaned out all dust on MBo, GPU heatsink everything everywhere etc. i accidentally broke one of the GPU's fan's blade and the noise went wild. so i broke another fan's blade on the opposite side to get more balance and lubricated the bearing. the noise goes to manageable level. i also did try to pull out the GPU fan entirely for short moment (not really a super power hog gaming GPU so it can stand like 30 minutes of fanless operation before temp goes red) and my PC went super silent, so it seems the 10years original intel cpu fan still hold to its reputation. the new PSU is the cheap version and its 12cm fan also cant be heard, now major contributor of my PC's noise is the GPU's fan. i agree that modern PC should be silent enough and suggestion for fanless/low power GPU is also reasonable, but if you still cant stand that, or even the 12cm water coolled fan system's noise, then i guess you should go with rasp pi computer or a NUC/Atom like setup (no pun intended)

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 06:01:25 pm
content: Any computer you put together (or buy) now is going to far outperform your 2006 machine and still be much quieter. I think the $2300 budget is probably close to 3 times more than you need to spend.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 06:16:07 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on June 18, 2020, 02:43:58 pmNo. Variable speed fans have 4 wires. Fans with 3 wires only have +, - and tacho. I second the suggestion for using Noctua fans if you want to mess with a self built PC but count on spending like $25 per fan.Quote from: grumpydoc on June 18, 2020, 03:26:19 pmI'm not so sure about that. Noise is measured using an A-curve which may not necessarily say low frequency rumbles will be quiet too.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 06:17:43 pm
content: Do you even need a video card? My workbench computer does not have a video card, it just uses the internal Intel graphics. It's now 3 generations old, but it runs KiCAD and others just fine. It also runs my 3D model railroad CAD program and renders the 3D with plenty of performance.The stock cooler that comes with the CPU is plenty if you aren't overclocking. No need for water cooling or crazy fans.There are several case options that include sound insulation - skip the side windows and side fans, and get one of those.No hard drives, all SSD or NVME these days, so no noise there.If not gaming, it's easy to build a nearly silent PC.And I agree, don't need anywhere near $2600 for this. I didn't spend nearly that much for a game capable system with 32GB RAM and a 1TB PCIe 4.0 NVME drive. About $1500 or so, and nearly $500 of that was the video card.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 07:25:09 pm
content: If as you say all you will be doing is general work with no heavy loads then you won't have a problem. I run folding at home and BOINC on my computer and no amount of cooling will make that quiet unless I water cool everything and put the cooler in another room.However for what you want to do not a problem. Modern coolers screw to a plate that goes on the back of the motherboard so it's not just hanging on by 4 holes. I have an alphacool all in one water cooler that takes 2x 140mm fans. it's silent with no load but makes some noise fully loaded but can make less noise than an air cooler.Fans are a big racket in PC gear. Don't believe any of these special claims. my watercooler came with quiet fans but they also have atrocious performance despite the ribbed blades which is all bollocks or the high power auto (850W) fans I work with would be ribbed like that. When comparing my bequiet fans to my corsair ones it became apparent that the noise and performance are identical, the reason why the quiet ones are quiet is because they don't move much air under pressure making them hopeless for a radiator. All things being equal the sound is the same for the same pressure and flow. Fan noise is not linear so slowing fans down reduces noise fast and you are better with 2 fans at half speed that one at full speed, you move the same air with a fraction of the noise.Modern GPU's and CPU's are so efficient that for what you want to do they won't use that much power. I would not even bother with a big grophics card, for non gaming or grid computing anything will do. I can run a 4k screen off my i5 laptop with no problem and years ago ran 3D CAD on a £22 graphics card with no fan. something like a P400 will be fine for what you want.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 11:48:04 pm
content: Cases which support passive cooling using heat pipes from the CPU and GPU to externally exposed heat sinks are available. The alternatives if a GPU must be cooled is to use a liquid cooling loop which includes both the CPU and GPU.If an APU is acceptable, then things are much easier because all that is necessary is an oversized air cooler so that fan speed is minimized. However there are also cases suitable for APU or CPU only cooling which mount a heat pipe connected heat sink directly where the air exhausts.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 12:02:22 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 18, 2020, 06:16:07 pmWell, they all have variable speed. 4 wire fans can change speed by PWM signal or by motherboard (or additional fan controller) changing supplied voltage. 3 pin fans need motherboard which is able to change voltage, most of them can do so at least on some fan connectors.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 05:22:56 am
content: 4-wire is less hassle (if you can get a board and fan that support it) because the RPM range of the fan is specified and known in advance and the fan is guaranteed to start at any speed. With voltage control, fans fail to start if you set them too low.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 07:35:08 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on June 18, 2020, 01:28:50 pmif space is not issue, you can find some cases where you can place MBs horizontally.This is that I got a long time ago and now able to accommodate two PCshttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-computing/21-or-amdintel-under-same-hood/

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 07:38:53 am
content: So the million dollar question: how much?

author: nardev
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 07:41:07 am
content: Ha ha.. The only reason i started using thinkpads 15 years agobut if you get i7 p72 series or similar, man, you will hear itloud and clear hahaha

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 07:44:13 am
content: The only concern with a very heavy coolers is when you buy preassembled computer and assembler does not ship it properly. Many of them place expanding foam packaging bags inside PC prior to shipping, and they need to be removed by buyer later. It's not an issue when computer is not kicked and dropped like during shipping. Also most of decent CPU coolers are not that heavy to begin with.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 09:14:05 am
content: i think i can manage to get i9-10900K system that can render descent 3D at less than 1K, dont dream it with a brand name system, its going to be like 3-5X fold. and dont dream its going to be silent (100W+ TDP). at 2K+ i can get flashy gaming machine already with the F1-like seat.

author: Lindley
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 09:28:49 am
content: The car type of sound deadening mats applied to the case panels can also be effective.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 10:19:55 am
content: Quote from: Simon on June 19, 2020, 07:38:53 amI paid just below RRP price for a new one - around U$D 150

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 10:20:23 am
content: Quote from: Lindley on June 19, 2020, 09:28:49 amBut in the end these are just bodges to mask a bad design and it will never be really good. I went this route before myself and in the end it is better to just buy a system which has been designed from the ground up to be quiet.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 11:02:40 am
content: I have an i7 desktop, and did the following against noise:0. I used only parts with controlled speed for fans, everywhere: in motherboard/case/processor cooler, graphic card and power source.1. Filled all the case fan places with ordinary fans, but powered at 7V instead of 12V (they are connected between the +5V and +12V instead of GND and 12V<- may be a very bad idea, in case of a fan short-circuit or a sensitive power supply, at least put a fuse in series with the fans, a fan speed controller would be the proper way to reduce the RPM). All six of them. For my setup, the reduction of case fans voltage from 12 to 7 was the most significant change to silence the whole box. Would have been nice to put Noctua low noise fans instead of no-name, but they were way more expensive, and the no name doesn't make audible noise when inside the case and powered at only 7V.2. Use a huge radiator with two big Noctua fans on it. The key element here is the very silent Noctua made fans, helped by a huge radiator. I think the processor cooler was Noctua NH-D15. If you order that, make sure it fits in your case, not any case can fit a NH-D15.3. I taped 5mm thick flame retardant foam inside all the walls of the metallic case. This helped a little, too, especially with the noise from a few HDDs that are still in use for storage, the OS should be hosted on a SSD.4. Order the most powerful and expensive power source you can afford.5. Another important noise source is the graphic card. You probably won't need one, but if you get one, read reviews and buy only brands that publish the noise level in the specs.In day to day use, I can not hear the computer. It can be heard only when the fans speed up during heavy 3D video games, or during Gentoo compilations when all the 8 processor cores goes 100% busy.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 12:27:27 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 19, 2020, 11:02:40 amStick a needle into the motor and see what happens to your motherboard

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 12:39:20 pm
content: last time i tried to get 7V this way the PSU shut down but it was years ago.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 12:46:25 pm
content: I'm piecing my system together on PCpartpicker, and, when I picked the micro, it didn't state it came with a heat sink, so I assumed I needed to buy one seperatly.As someone stated, if something is 25db (or dBa?), and add another 25db to it, I don't get 50??? Sound pressure was/is confusing for me, and none of it really sunk in.Also, many have mentioned price, and buying a computer for under $1200. The i7 9700 is $370, RAM (I forgot the price, but let's assume) $300, a graphics card is $300 - $400, MB another $300, hard drives are $120 or so each, a case is easily $120.I assume I don't need a sound card because the MB has one already?As for a graphics card, I was unaware MB's have them onboard, however, wouldn't using an onboard graphics card steal resources from the micro? I'd like to be able to watch videos while rendering 3D graphics or whatever; or even have the ability to run something like Solidworks while a PCB program so I can place the PCB into a case model.

author: tunk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 12:57:51 pm
content: The MB should have a sound card. The "graphics card" (or GPU) is in the CPU.Maybe you first could try without a graphics card and see if it works. If it doesn'twork then you can upgrade later.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 01:13:23 pm
content: If I go with or without a graphics card, do I need to change a setting on the MB to tell it not to use it's micro to run the graphics?I think my final question (although I had a few in my previous post) is: do I need a MB with a combination of PCI slots (1, 4, 8, 16, etc...) or just go with PCI 16, and how many?The MB's have many terms I'm unfamiliar with, so I'm uncertain what is essential, and what is a waste. I know ECC is an option, but doesn't seem I need it.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 01:29:58 pm
content: Quote from: magic on June 19, 2020, 12:27:27 pmFair enough, strikethrough the text in my previous post. Even with a fuse in series with the fans, something might still go wrong and bamboozle the power supply. The proper way to dial down the RPM of case fans will be a fan controller.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 02:24:35 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 19, 2020, 11:02:40 amMy Dell system stays quiet even when at 100% load (the Xeon in it has a TDP of 120W).Another problem I have found with GPUs is that you can't run them full power with the stock cooling system. There is just no way you can get enough air through fins with form factor limitations of a PCI card (even when using 2 slots). I used a GPU for crypto mining a couple of years ago. Mounting a huge fan on top of the graphics card and add ducting so the air is forced outside the case doubled the crypto mining performance but I still wasn't getting the maximum performance for the GPU on the graphics card (75% or so IIRC).

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 02:28:26 pm
content: Well, you could use LM317 with a pot. AnythingI have never done that 7V trick and never will precisely because of the firework potential if the fan shorts out for whatever dumb reason.The tacho signal probably won't work correctly either if you try to feed it to the onboard fan monitor.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 03:12:38 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on June 19, 2020, 12:46:25 pmSome do, some don't.QuoteAll "dB" scales are logarithmic based on power ratios - the letter(s) after giving the reference power level (so for dBa or dB SPL the reference is 20 micropascals = 0 dB SPL).Doubling power adds log10(2) x 10 = 3dB; thus two 25dB sources added together would equal 28dB (ish, sources like fans are directional so it's not quite straightforward to add them).QuoteNo, you won't need a separate sound card. Modern CPUs have graphics integrated and, yes, they share system resources such as memory - but, no, running a 3D render would not actually stop you playing a video (it might drop some frames at worst).

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 04:17:10 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on June 19, 2020, 12:46:25 pmif you have a nasty habit of requiring 5.1 output to boobastics soundbar or can hear the difference of sound through pure copper vs copper plated aluminium cables with or without some nicely spaced and shaped ferrite beads or wood along the cable, then you'll need a dedicated soundcard.Quote from: bostonman on June 19, 2020, 12:46:25 pmbuilt-in graphics card comes with dedicated GPU on the MoBo (now is CPU built-in). it has basic and limited functionalities such as simple 2D drawing or even maybe simple 3D operations, limited GRAM etc. you may watch movie with it and do Word or Excel, but when it comes to heavy 3D like game or CAD, it will use soft-calculation (and the PC-RAM when the small internal GRAM filled up very quickly with complex model), ie in your CPU, and sw-3d is nowhere near hw-3d operation performance, you'll experience bad lag even running a single Solidwork alone. even with dedicated GPU card with lots of RAM and GPU speed, some CAD like Inventor have a funny view mode that i guess no GPU/OpenGL/DirectX can support it, hence it will use its own sw-3d operations, so a high performance CPU will be required as well.Quote from: RoGeorge on June 19, 2020, 01:29:58 pmQuote from: magic on June 19, 2020, 02:28:26 pmits funny when there are $1 buck convertors in fleabay like candies, people still want to risk $1K system.Quote from: nctnico on June 19, 2020, 02:24:35 pmin your Dell system? its fun isnt it? doing the mod.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 06:12:37 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 19, 2020, 04:17:10 pmCoincidentally this mod was inaDell system but not my daily driver; just an excess Xeon workstation I acquired a long time ago. Needless to say I banished the system from my office while it was mining cryptocurrency due to the noise. I placed it in the room where we hang the laundry to dry; that seemed like an excellent spot to put an extra heat source during the winter.

author: MasterBuilder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 09:05:00 pm
content: Currently I have the below spec PC, mostly for productivity and occasional gaming.I do want my PC to be quiet as possible and I couldn't be happier with this combination. Generally I don't know if the PC is on when I'm in the room. Graphics card and CPU are rarely challenged, plenty of space in the case for expansion and it looks classy with no gamer or water cooling nonsense.i5 8400 CPU 2.8ghz standard auto boost 4.1ghzGTX 1060 3GB gigabyte OC versionTCsunbow 240gb SSDCooler master hyper 212 evo CPU coolerEvga 600W power supplyCorsair vengeance 3000mhz 2x4gb RAMGigabyte Z370P LGA 1151 motherboardCase is Fractal Design Define R4

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 03:11:22 am
content: Have you considered some HDMI and USB extenders to move the PC to a location where low noise isn't as important?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 07:45:29 am
content: Modern built in sound is good, you don't pick up the digital hum and a decent motherboard has multichannel sound

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 10:31:25 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on June 20, 2020, 03:11:22 amWell, you can't extend USB3 a lot so this plan is not going to work.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 06:49:04 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on June 19, 2020, 01:13:23 pmThe BIOS will have a setting to configure which display is the primary and whether to enable or disable built in graphics.I think my final question (although I had a few in my previous post) is: do I need a MB with a combination of PCI sQuoteI doubt you will have a lot of choice in PCIe slot arrangement unless you pay a lot more. Unless I have a specific need, I look for boards which have more slots which usually means a pair of x16 slots, a x4, and some x1 slots.I always end up using the slots also. My workstation has a dual port 10/100 Ethernet card (PCI), another gigabit Ethernet card, a serial and parallel port card (PCI), and a hardware RAID controller.QuoteI consider ECC mandatory if I am doing real work and not just gaming or viewing media.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 02:55:09 am
content: Everyone seem to be only concerned with db rating of the fan, but quality of sound has a lot to do with how you'd perceive it as well. That is, some people are more sensitive to certain frequencies, certain waveforms, and certain energy distributions. (spectrum) I have a medical condition that makes me particularly sensitive to certain kinds of sound. It will drive me absolutely insane and triggers severe anxiety. So this is an important topic for me. My A/C system (off topic) is specially installed and engineered to reduce noise. I barely hear it.I have a Dell T20 server (using as a desktop) and it is nearly silent. It has two fans. I also have a mini desktop type. They are even more quiet. On the other hand, Dual Xeon Precision 5600 is a jet engine. My T20 is a lowly dual core machine running Linux. It is fast enough for what I do. More powerful CPU you use, more power it will dissipate, and more cooling is required. That usually means large fan pushing lots of air. Smaller the cabinet, smaller the diameter of fan, needing it to turn fast, and it makes a nice jet engine.I have no found any scientific way to do this. Noctura fans are quiet. But you have to be mindful of what's behind it. Place a bundle of wire or other obstacles, you'd hear whistling noise. Larger and slower turning fans are quieter than smaller and faster turning fans. There are industrial PCs that do not have any fans. But there are usually zero expandability.Yes, I hear your pain!

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 05:44:10 am
content: Quote from: tkamiya on June 21, 2020, 02:55:09 amAlso ugly and expensiveThere are other brands with good reputation too, but I don't remember now, I haven't been buying fans for a while.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 02:11:19 pm
content: QuoteSilly question, but why can't a water cooled system be used in a separate box located elsewhere? If the micro needs one fan, and the graphics card uses two or three, why not one large cooler with four fans located elsewhere and hoses connecting the water lines?Also, as for PCI slots, this is some confusion for me. I assumed a smaller PCI cards can be used in a 16, but think I read a 16 can be used in an 8. Ignoring speed issues (because an 8 won't run faster in a 16, and a 16 will run slower in an, and just mechanical. Would I be better off buying a motherboard with several 16s only so I can always expand if needed?I don't know what items need which size slot, but want to make sure I don't buy something already outdated.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 02:23:37 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on June 21, 2020, 02:11:19 pmSky is the limit. It's just a few meters of plumbing to run through walls, coolant to fill it and pumps and shit.Why bother though?

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 02:39:24 pm
content: Just to get a handle on modern PC noise levels.I have just about got my PC rebuilt and working after its "little accident" - so I now have a i7-10700k, MSI Z490I itx motherboard, 3 hard drives (raid for backup & long term storage), 1 SSD, 5 fans (including the quite ludicrous Noctua NF-A14 IndustrialPPC), a Gigabyte RX570 GPU (oh, sorry, make that 7 fans with the two GPU fans, no - actually that's 8 as the motherboard has a tiny fan to help with VRM cooling). All in a Fractal Design Node 304 - which is not the roomiest case out thereAmbient noise levels in the room are 40-45dB and I can't hear this PC which is currently less than a foot away - by far the loudest noise is the file server - that has 10 disks in an NSC-800 chassis and, while not loud, is distinctly annoying.Which brings me to:Quote from: tkamiya on June 21, 2020, 02:55:09 amIt was briefly mentioned in passing, then not discussed, but you are absolutely right - some sounds or their harmonic content are definitely more annoying. In fact this is one of the areas that has improved hugely since 2016 as not only have components got quieter but effort has gone into trying to move the energy into less noticeable frequencies.Quote from: bostonman on June 21, 2020, 02:11:19 pmWhat do you need loads of PCIe for?For anything other than a graphics card or PCIe storage you do not need much more than an x1 (PCIe 3.0 is 1GB/s per lane)For intel 16 lanes come out of the CPU, typically to the slot closest the CPU for a graphics card, 24 come out of the PCH, usually giving another x16 slot for a 2nd graphics card and the rest maybe to further slots - you have to go up to server class motherboards and CPUs to get more x16 slots (at that point your $2300 budget starts to look puny rather than generous).But, honestly, don't try to future proof your hardware.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 02:43:33 pm
content: QuoteIt would allow the tower to be local, but the "loud" cooling to be elsewhere. At that point the tower would only have two fans; a power supply and one for the case.I doubt that would work though, the air would need to be bled from the lines, the pump strong enough to pump several feet, etc...

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 03:04:00 pm
content: FWIW this is the PC I've been using for the past 7yrs or so... it's an i7 4770k and has absolutely zero fans , and the only moving part is the DVD drive.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 03:26:38 pm
content: Nice looking build

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 03:29:30 pm
content: Quote from: nali on June 21, 2020, 03:04:00 pmHow about HDD which spins all of the time? And I don't think that cooling is anywhere adequate if you run it under prolonged heavy load. Hot air will simply stay within the case.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 03:29:37 pm
content: Wow.... That giant radiator (heat sink) is a thing of a beauty!

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 03:37:02 pm
content: Quote from: magic on June 21, 2020, 05:44:10 amThey appear to be cheaply made and flimsy in construction. I do not know what the fuzz is about Noctua fans.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 03:50:39 pm
content: There are two note worthy things about Noctura fans.1) They are quiet.2) They spent just as much money in packaging as the product.I don't think they are cheaply made. Certainly not an industrial grade, but as a consumer grade fan, they are adequate.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 04:33:28 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 21, 2020, 03:29:30 pmDrives are a pair of SSDs so it really is zero noise.You can't see from that pic, but most of the top/sides of the case are perforated so there's a fairly decent convection path. OK so we don't really get extreme temperatures here in the UK but my office gets the sun in the afternoons so it's been 30+C in here and quite happy. I don't really give it a hard time performance wise, most of the time it's running MS-Office, Kicad sometimes Freecad and the occasional code compilation.Anyway it works fine for me, I'm happy with it

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 04:56:30 pm
content: Quote from: tkamiya on June 21, 2020, 03:50:39 pmNoctua does seem to have an industrial product line too. But I agree on the packaging; that is way over the top.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 05:06:39 pm
content: Any closet next to the room? Long cables are affordable and it's hard to compete with the silencing two layers of gypsum board, let alone a more substantial wall.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 06:56:45 pm
content: Nice build. Hard to beat passive convection in terms of noiseI had a look at my fans - it's a mix of Noiseblocker and Scythe stuff. Not actually much cheaper but looks 100x better than Noctua and all have been running reliably and silently for over 5 years now.Only the 140mm intake fan is some cheap no-name brand and I had to take it apart and lubricate the bearing at one point because it started to tick. I think I put some standard ball bearing grease in there after a failed experiment with silicone oil (doesn't last long, leaks, nasty stuff).

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 08:03:44 pm
content: Without a fan on the massive heat pipe air coolers that I use, all of my recent PC builds would have the CPU overheat. But just running the fan at silent speed is enough to maintain a reasonable, below 65C, CPU temperature.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 07:23:43 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on June 19, 2020, 01:13:23 pmThere may be an option too disable the CPU's onboard graphics. But you wouldn't select that without a discrete video card. Intel's internal graphics may not be the ultimate for games, but they ARE fast at video rendering and playback - so I think you will have no issues there. My much older processor has no problem playing back video or, as I mentioned, using KiCAD or EasyEDA. Even the 3D parts are smooth and fast. And that CPU is 2 generations newer than what I have in my workbench computer.As for slots - it doesn't really matter. You'll want one x16 if you plan to install a video card. Most Intel motherboards that have more than one x16 slot actually toggle them down to x8 if both are occupied with X16 cards, the CPU doesn't have enough PCIe lanes to feed all that. And unless you are going with a mini-ITX size board, there will be additional slots. Mine in the workbench computer has 2 slots on it, an x1 and an x16. I'd have no cards at all installed but I needed extra USB ports so I have a USB card in it. My new desktop machine has a video card in the x16 but has some x4 and x1 slots free (current AMD CPUs have more PCIe lanes for peripherals than Intel). My server has the exact same motherboard, the only thing in a slot is a PCIe x1 video card - it's a server, I just need a display for the desktop, not a high performance display. I figured I'd leave the x16 slot free for a 10Gb network card - although an x4 slot is fast enough for that.I have yet to see a need for ECC memory on a home machine. I have never had an issue that could be traced to a bit flip that would have been caught by ECC memory. You're not going to get ECC support with the I7-9700K anyway. It's a different story for a mission critical server, or if your workload is something like long running calculations that take days to complete or require extreme precision. CAD, video editing, programming - waste of money to get an ECC capable system. With Intel that requires server grade CPUs that cost a lot more, AND motherboards that support ECC, plus the added cost of ECC. A waste except for specialized use cases.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2020, 12:34:34 pm
content: As for PCI slots, I predict I'll need:USB extender (for additional UBS ports)Graphics cardNetwork card (I know the mother board comes with one, but will the standard change soon to something that may require a faster network connection???)Possibly a parallel port (or maybe I can just buy a parallel to USB external device???)GPIB (or maybe I can just buy a GPIB to USB external device?)So should I look for extra 16s or does a standard number exist on how many come on a mother board?

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2020, 02:09:38 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on June 24, 2020, 12:34:34 pmWhat USB devices do you envisage using? Most motherboards have plenty of USB ports these daysQuoteFair enough, 1 x16 slotQuoteNah, pick a m/b with 2.5GbE - unlikely to need faster within the lifetime of the board.QuoteWhat on earth for?QuoteEven if you went for a PCIe card (expensive) these are only going to need an x1 slotQuoteSo far I can't see that you need more than an x16 and an x1

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2020, 02:23:27 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on June 24, 2020, 12:34:34 pmThe upgrade from 1 Gigabit Ethernet is a pretty big step and getting better than 1 Gigabit performance out of common inexpensive storage arrays is not trivial. SSDs are so much smaller that they have less need for high network throughput; it just does not take long enough to copy their limited capacity to matter.For example I could have made good use of better than 1 Gigabit performance last year when rebuilding my NAS and file server but neither could sustain that level of performance. Even my new file server cannot from Windows Storage Spaces no matter how it is configured although it now handily saturates its 1 Gigabit Ethernet connection when operating from its RAID HBA or an SSD.QuoteFor inexpensive motherboards, dual physical PCIe x16 slots which operate at x8 or better are common along with an auxiliary PCIe x4 slot and several PCIe x 1 slots and maybe PCI slots. Beyond that the cost is much higher.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2020, 02:26:48 pm
content: As for network speeds, you never know if 2.5Gbs will change sooner than expected.Basically, I don't want to select a motherboard that is below standard. I can accept say buying a standard MB and run out of PCI slots, but I want to make sure I'm getting at least the standard, and, if possible, room to expand into unexpected areas.A parallel port device, I highly doubt I'll ever use it, but know I have several older pieces of test equipment that use parallel and GPIB, so should I ever have a need to connect them, I'd like to know I can. Most likely though, I can find a USB external converter.Also, as for USB ports, I figure, a keyboard, mouse, thumbdrive, phone, and then I have old hard drives that go from the 40 () pin header (I can't think of the name at the moment), to a USB connection. They are old drives, but still, are external with backed up data.My last PC (and current) didn't come with any front USB ports, and I had to get an extender. Since then, I've had a need for more than the available two on the front and have been limited several times. Although I mentioned additional USB ports, I should have specified front accessible ones.QuoteDo not all x16 slots operate at 16? They may be physically 16, but run at 8?

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2020, 02:51:48 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 24, 2020, 02:23:27 pmTrue enoughMy fastest array (4x 8TB drives in a raid 10 config) sustains 320MB/s write & 380MB/s read so it should be able to saturate 1GbE and could make use of 2.5GbE easily but, say, my home directory is on an encrypted partition underlying which is just a mirrored pair and it manages a much more modest 100MB/sec.I don't recall if bostonman had a NAS but that's really the only reason in a domestic setup to contemplate a network which is faster than your Internet connection - and you aren't going to see faster than 1GB/s (at least I don't know of anywhere offering faster), frequently not even that - I have 50Mb/s and that is the fastest technology available to me, no 5G, no fibre and too far from the cabinet for G.Fast.That said boards are appearing with 2.GbE - and it is backwards compatible with 1GbE so there's no reason to not get 2.5GbE

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2020, 10:14:01 pm
content: If you're going to add in a video card anyway, consider an AMD CPU then. Equivalent to that Intel is about $100 less, and uses faster PCIe 4.0In both my machines I used the ASRock X570 PRO4 motherboard, with my case I have a total of 12 USB ports on this thing. I will never need an extra USB card on this. My workbench computer has a mini-ITX form factor board and only has 6 USB ports native, so for my gear I needed the extra card. That was about $170.I have a Fractal Design Define C silent case - it has sound deadening, no big open grills, and comes with one quiet fan. I have not needed to add any more fans. That was $87 It has 2 USB 2.0 and 2 USB 3.1 on the front. And the motherbooard has 8 on the back.For a power supply I used an EVGA Supernova 550 GA. It has an Eco mode where the fan doesn;t run at low and medium loads. Ignore the gaming nuts who say it isn;t enough, 550 watts is plenty for any single video card. $120For a CPU for this board, closest to that Intel, would be the Ryzen 7 3700X, 8 core/16 thread. The Intel one you listed does not do hyperthreading so it's 8 core/8 thread. The Ryzen coomes with a perfectly adequate cooler. $275I have an EVGA GeoForce 2060 Super video card, overkill if you are not gaming, $470. A 1660 at half that price would work if you aren't gaming.32GB RAM, $1181TB NVME PCIE x4 4.0 SSD $190.There's your system. $1195, with the 1660 video card. Mine has faster video but this would have a faster processor.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2020, 10:44:43 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on June 24, 2020, 02:26:48 pmBut 2.5Gb/s NICs and switches are not commonly available. Newegg does not even include them as a selection and I do not see any 2.5Gb/s switches on Amazon.Because of Mikrotik, 10G is more available; Mikrotik sells a reasonably priced 10G switch.QuoteIt is common for one slot to be x16 and then both slots to be x8 if the second slot is used. Whether this happens depends on the motherboard and CPU. The difference in performance is not normally significant and x8 is plenty for all but the most demanding applications and hardware.As pointed out earlier, AMD systems are more likely to provide dual x16 PCIe slots because their CPUs support more PCIe lanes but I would not consider this important.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 08:02:05 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 24, 2020, 10:44:43 pmI didn't have any difficulty finding a 2.5GbE switch in stock in the UK - and at a non-ludicrous price1but choicewaslimited.However, David does raise an important point - to gain the benefit of a faster network - be it 2.5GbE or 10GbE at least one other device must have a matching interface and any switches in between must also support the faster speeds. Upgrading half your network adds to the costs.I would not discount a board because it had 2.5GbE though (it's backwards compatible).And, for most devices, on most home networks they are not talking to other devices on the same network - they are talking to some server on the internet - so unless you have a 1Gb/s Internet connection you probably don't need faster than 1Gb Ethernet around the house.1] Amazon claims stock of the Zyxel XGS1010 for same day delivery as I write this - with 8x 1GbE, 2x2.5GbE and 2x10GbE it seems to have all bases covered for about £130 (a few other retailers have stock as well).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 09:35:58 am
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on June 25, 2020, 08:02:05 amIf you want to upgrade to higher network speeds then it could be worthwhile to think about going for optic fiber instead of CAT7 cable. Optic fiber can go to even higher speeds if you want. I have CAT5e in my home which tops out at 1Gb/s and I assume the cabling will be similar for many people.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 09:40:12 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 25, 2020, 09:35:58 amCat5e should do 2.5Gb/s

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 04:55:51 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 25, 2020, 09:35:58 amMy first choice now would be 10 Gb/s SFP+ switches and network cards with direct attach because 10GBASE-T interfaces are so much more expensive and that leaves open the capability to use SFP+ optical links.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 05:07:28 pm
content: Infiniband 40 Gb/s stuff can sometimes be found for bargain basement prices, but I have no idea how easy it is to use.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 04:25:59 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 25, 2020, 04:55:51 pmYup. And with optical links you can use a multiplexer in between and use 1 fiber for multiple connections.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 09:15:37 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 26, 2020, 04:25:59 pm10G switches aren't exactly cheap at this point, let alone 10G managed switches.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 12:10:58 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on June 27, 2020, 09:15:37 pmhttps://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 11:10:53 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 28, 2020, 12:10:58 amNot too bad but don't forget you have to buy transceivers separately.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 11:43:20 am
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on June 28, 2020, 11:10:53 amMikrotik's own 10Gcopperand850nm multi-mode fibertransceivers cost around USD $60 apiece as of 2020-06-28. I'm too cheap/poor to know if one should consider them cheap or not, though.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 12:01:35 pm
content: Here 10Gb SFP+ transceivers start at 16 euro:https://www.fs.com/products/36433.html

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 12:37:41 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 28, 2020, 12:01:35 pmThey are, I agree, not expensive (I can't see if the 16€ is ex VAT or not) but it still pushes the price for a fully populated unit above £200 which is not cheap compared with a 10thof that for an 8-port GbE switch.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 03:53:50 pm
content: Yup. But at some point that was also true for 1Gbit/s switches a couple of years ago.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 04:13:24 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on June 28, 2020, 11:10:53 amHence my earlier comment about using direct attachment cable:https://www.amazon.com/s?k=sfp%2B+direct+attach+cable&i=electronics&ref=nb_sb_noss_2And then SFP+ transceivers can be used for only long links or where galvanic isolation is a requirement. I would probably look on the used market.What really matters though and the reason I brought it up is that the SFP+ solution is currently much less expensive than the 10GBASE-T solution.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 05:20:14 pm
content: Have you considered going another way?If you've managed to use an 2006 vintage PC until now, then almost anything is going to vastly ouperform it (and be much quiter).Improvements in PC performance have also been leveling of in the last 5+ years.Your old PC probably has 100Mbit/s, so why worry much about 1Gb/s or 1.5GB/s Ethernet?Have you thought about buying second hand?Lots of offices still have their PC's swapped every few years, while that is an oudated habit.You can get a quite decent second hand PC for around EUR300 to EUR300.Back in the '80ies and '90ies I started saving for a new PC on the day I bought a new PC, because the hardware was hopelessly outdated. Now I'm typing this on an 11 year old dualcore. It is a bit slowish, but it is still capable (and stable) enough to not have much need for a more modern PC.For GPIB, there are several open source projects floating around to attach GPIB to USB.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 12:45:56 am
content: This is the computer I have selected up to this point.I know picking out computers is a loaded question, but the best questions should be: is anything I'm planning to buy in this list outdated and will this be relatively quiet?https://pcpartpicker.com/list/sTqwWb

author: gnavigator1007
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 02:00:39 am
content: This seems like a bit overkill for your needs. I wouldn't ordinarily direct someone to reddit, but you may find r/buildapc and r/buildapcsales particularly useful before you pull the trigger. I just completed a build back in May and was lucky enough to save a few hundred from doing my part selection aided by sales posts. Unfortunately, I can't advise on building a quiet machine as I've always been a bit of a freak that finds the sound of fans comforting unless something is going wrong and then at least I knowI've got a few of the noctua industrial line and a fan controller so I do adjust according to need, but they're certainly not recommended for quiet systems

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 07:17:29 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on July 23, 2020, 12:45:56 amOK, not unreasonable - it will work, for sure.1) Ryzen is a better choice at present2) The m/b & processor arguably overkill if you do not want to overclock3) The cooler underspecified if you do4) Do you actually need an optical drive?5) 16GB RAM almost certainly enough but I'd be tempted to go with 32 out of the gate6) The GPU is already obsolete (and integrated might well be OK for you from what you have said)7) I'd go with M.2, not SATA for primary storage8) Do you need any extra case fans?Just my $0.02Quote from: gnavigator1007 on July 23, 2020, 02:00:39 amMe too, they're actually pretty quiet up to about 2000rpm

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 07:58:46 am
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on July 23, 2020, 07:17:29 amAnd quieter for sure.Quote from: grumpydoc on July 23, 2020, 07:17:29 amHaha, I'm sure OP has no ideaAnd me too. My strategy: make sure the case has space for extra fans, buy it, build it and see how it performs.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 01:00:01 pm
content: QuoteIn order of the numbers:1. I'm an Intel guy - not sure if that's an issue2. Don't mind the "overkill" as I keep my computers for several years - unless the price difference is significant3. What do you mean the cooler is under-specified? I need a better one?4. Optical drive - yes - as I have many CDs with stuff on them5. Glad you like the 32GB ram6. Why is the GPU obsolete? What should I go with - and no sense going "ok" because I plan to use more 3D rendering and stuff while having many memory hog programs open7. I actually prefer a 7200RPM because you can sometimes tell when a drive is going bad and/or technically you can recover data from a drive with a bad motor. If a single transistor goes in a SSD or M.2, the whole drive is junk (or at least I think). In any case, is an M.2 just some sort of phase or is it the new best thing that will be around for a long time?9. Don't know about more fans. I assume no, but can always add a fan if need be

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 08:31:39 pm
content: Just my opinions (no charge).1- I always look at value. My last two computers used Intel. The two before that were AMD. Next one will use Ryzen.2- I spend whatever it takes to get the features I want. My last two machines using Gigabyte boards are still in use (12 and 8 years).3- I buy the most powerful processor that comes with a stock cooler included.4- Can you migrate an existing optical drive? Mine will soon be in its third machine.5- As much as you can afford in as few slots as possible.6- GPU looks fine even for some gaming. I'd probably save some money and go with a 1650 Ti (single fan).7- SATA seems fine to me and may be more reliable.8- One 120mm case fan along with a 120mm in the power supply is what I prefer.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 01:43:08 am
content: My optical drive is junk, else I'd keep it, however, it's not a BluRay writer.As for the GPU being obsolete, is it or just overkill? Lastly, is going with two 16GB RAM sticks faster than four 8's?I thought I remember reading that going to big on one stick gets slower RAM speeds.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 03:53:33 am
content: You don't want all your RAM on one stick, install it in pairs. If you have 4 slots don't fill them all at once because it limits future upgrades. Get 2 sticks as big as you can afford and leave 2 slots open in case you want to add more later. (so yeah, me saying "as few slots as possible" was a little misleading)I think the time of Blu-ray is almost over, but they do still release movies on them.I play games - mostly 3D FPS types, Fallout 4, Quake, Prey, stuff like that. I have a GTX 1050 Ti. I don't think it's worthwhile to upgrade it just yet. I bet you'd be fine with a 1650 TI 4GB, and those are only about $150. It's probably what I'll start with in my next build.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 12:11:52 pm
content: I agree on Blu-ray being close to over.The best way to explain this: I'd rather have the necessary hardware if cost isn't too much. While I may use it once a year, being limited on not having that ability may be an issue. If it were $500, then I'd skip it, however, for $60 or so, it's worth having.Also, it's rare I ever "upgrade" a computer. From experience, by the time I need more RAM, or a GPU, etc... the cost to get obsoleted hardware that will physically fit in the computer is a high cost percentage of a new machine.I look at it this way, I'd rather spend a bit more now and not worry about upgrades.The statement about RAM makes more sense. Actually, I was going with 16GB, but, when I saw the price, I tossed in another 16GB. I highly doubt I'll need more than 32GB but one never knows.As I expected, I got lots of great feedback, and, when it comes to opinions about computers, many will exist. I didn't expect a simple answer to my questions, but, I got some assurance that it's a solid pick.I'm still uncertain why the GPU is "obsolete" as I'd like to avoid getting something that will cause incompatibility issues and/or not be able to use other hardware with it. Can someone point me to a GPU that isn't obsolete or name the reason(s) the one I selected is obsolete?

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 05:26:55 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on July 24, 2020, 12:11:52 pmThat GPU isn't obsolete. It's just not the latest and greatest, which will cost you 3x to 4x as much as one that will probably be good enough. However, the comment that the integrated graphics might be okay for you is valid. Maybe you can start off using the integrated graphics and if that's not acceptable, buy a cheap Nvidia card. But if you're not a serious game I wouldn't spend more than $150-$200, if that. There are cheaper cards that are still upgrades over the integrated graphics and some are fanless.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 04:18:04 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on July 24, 2020, 05:26:55 pmHowever, as you say it's not the latest, or greatest. Personally I prefer AMD as the FOSS drivers are better - but they aren't the greatest eitherQuoteI suspect that is the best advice for bostonman - but it is a reason to go with Ryzen as having PCIe 4 now - rather than by having to upgrade your CPU, you future-proof your future GPU options as much as is possible without a crystal ball.Quote from: bostonman on July 23, 2020, 01:00:01 pm1. That's OK but Ryzen is much better bang per buck and you get PCIe 4.0. The best the Intel platform can do is to buy a motherboard which is PCIe 4.0 "ready" - i.e it *might* offer PCIe 4.0 if you upgrade your CPU.There are reasons to go with Intel - on chip HEVC swayed it for me but AMD is ahead overall at present.2. But you're paying for features that you don't want to use - the whole raison d'être of the Z series chipset and the K suffix CPU is to overclock (which I think you said you were not bothered about).3. The Hyper 212 is a fine heatsink and will be more than adequate if you do not want to overclock. If you *do* want to overclock it will not be beefy enough (if you can get it in the case the Noctua NH-D15 is superlative - or D14 if you want something a little less massive).4. What's on the CD's - if music just get a Spotify (or Amazon Prime) subscription.5. Good move6. See above7. Spinning rust?? <cough> Only if you want the density as flash is a bit expensive for domestic use once you want multi-terabyte arrays (I confess I still have spinning rust in my file servers but 80TB of flash is a bit rich for me).No, an SSD is not toast if one flash cell dies - they have ECC and wear levelling as well as bad block management. M.2 is way faster than SATA SSD for basically the same money - plus just bolts to the M/B with no faffing with cables. Drives will even report a %lifetime for you if you want to get a replacement in before it wears out.8. Fair enough.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2020, 11:48:38 pm
content: Everyone has twisted my arm enough, I'm now looking, just looking, at AMD Ryzen.Here are reasons I've gone Intel all these years, and correct me where I'm wrong as I'm sure my opinions are incorrect.I always thought Intel was the leader in uProcessorsI thought Microsoft works better with IntelAMD is less popular, therefore less support and more headaches.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2020, 01:53:31 am
content: Intel has been way behind with graphics. It will handle regular office work and casual video playback, but it's still not very good for anything that needs a real GPU. (At least it's better than the days when Intel graphics were worthless for 3D...) They were first to market with hardware video encoding, but both Nvidia and AMD do as well nowadays so that's not really an advantage unless you're building a media server. It's also worth mentioning that there's an Intel CPU with an AMD GPU built in, apparently admitting that Intel's own GPU is not very good!Nvidia makes the best GPUs, but only if you use the closed source drivers. (They've been high quality ever since they started supporting 64 bit and continue releasing up to date drivers until the GPU is long obsolete.) They only make combined CPU/GPU chips for the embedded market, so you'll have to pair up the GPU with a separate CPU for anything more than a single board mini PC.AMD makes good GPUs, especially if you value open source drivers. Their combined CPU/GPU solution is often referred to as APUs. If you don't quite need the performance of a separate GPU, it's a great budget choice.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2020, 02:28:04 am
content: Well I plan to splurge and spend a few bucks on a video card. From your explanation, AMD's advantage is graphics; which is irreverent if I also use a video card.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2020, 02:47:36 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 29, 2020, 01:53:31 amI wish their APUs supported ECC. They have pro versions which do but they are only available to OEMs.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2020, 03:19:05 am
content: Like you, I don't care about built-in graphics. I don't want to go over 65 watts TDP and I want something that comes with a heatsink/cooler in the box. I'm real close to buying a Ryzen 5 3600. It's rated over 3x faster than what I'm using now so it should be a noticeable improvement.https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_value_available.html

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2020, 04:50:50 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on July 29, 2020, 03:19:05 amI have the same notional power requirement but am leaning toward the 8 core Ryzen 7 3700X because it has the highest boost frequency of the 65 watt Zen2 parts. If I could get a Ryzen 5 Pro 3400G which is an APU which supports ECC, then that would be my preference despite being Zen+ instead of Zen2 but they are sold to OEMs only.

author: Messtechniker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2020, 05:40:27 pm
content: Ever thought of putting the PC box in a neighbouring room either onthe same floor or above or below?Then use a 5 m USB extender for mouse keyboard and CD driveand two 4 m long DVI cables for my dual screen setup in my case.And all remains dead quiet (in the control room of my small recording studio).Saves all that trouble having to design a low noise PC every now and then.Drilling a 5 cm dia. hole through the ceiling was great fun, however. Has to be done only once.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2020, 10:31:31 pm
content: The Ryzen 7 3700X is more expensive, but not out of line with what I've paid for processors in the past. Since I intend to use the machine for quite a while it may be worth it.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2020, 12:59:59 am
content: QuoteI had mentioned something similar towards the beginning of thread; only use the cooler in another room and run the water pipes so the PC case is in the same room.Many gave their input and have basically assured me fan noise isn't as bad now because fans are quieter, vary speed, and are not always on.Now it's more of a question of whether going Intel will be a mistake. I plan to go with a graphics card, so I don't believe the issues with Intel's 3D capabilities will be an issue, but I may be wrong.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2020, 04:23:08 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on July 28, 2020, 11:48:38 pmEverything that you say was totally valid up to the introduction of Ryzen.At present Intel is struggling, that will change eventually, but for now AMD makes the CPUs with the best bang/buck ratio.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2020, 05:22:58 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on July 30, 2020, 12:59:59 amIME 800 RPM is about the limit of silent, for a powerful GPU that means using an aftermarket cooler.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2020, 06:18:00 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on July 29, 2020, 10:31:31 pmIt is, and keep in mind that the specified 65 watt power draw is notional rather than absolute; at maximum load, the larger core count parts will draw more power than the lower core count parts.The 65 watt choices come down to:Code:Ryzen 3 3100 $99 4(8) Cores 3.6(3.9) GHzRyzen 3 3300X $120 4(8) Cores 3.8(4.3) GHzRyzen 5 3600 $199 6(12) Cores 3.6(4.2) GHzRyzen 7 3700X $329 8(16) Cores 3.6(4.4) GHz

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2020, 03:14:55 am
content: Which connector types should I consider when selecting a graphics card?I plan to connect two monitors and thought DVI is still current, but seeing HDMI, display port, mini HDMI, and (I think) mini display port.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2020, 06:39:53 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on July 31, 2020, 03:14:55 amHa, I just went through that!My old monitors are DVI and two of my older graphics cards (1) only had 1 DVI port (2) so I had to use an adapter from HDMI or DisplayPort to DVI. I had considerable difficulty because the placement of the smaller ports interfered with the case preventing the adapters from fitting so my only choice was to use HDMI. The problem with HDMI is that it is not captive so the adapter tended to fall or bend out making it unreliable.So my suggestion is to get multiple DisplayPort ports (3) on the graphics card and use full length DisplayPort to DVI cables which is what I do now and it is glorious. I still have DVI and HDMI ports available for additional monitors.(1) My current system is on its 4th graphics card, 3rd power supply, 3rd keyboard, 4th mouse, 3rd set of hard drives, and 2nd SSD.(2) My original graphics card and one of the replacements have 2 DVI ports so they were no problem.(3) The DisplayPort connector is a captive design; it latches into place.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2020, 01:12:04 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on July 31, 2020, 03:14:55 amModern cards typically have 3 Display Port & 1 HDMI, built-in (on Intel) more commonly 2 HDMI and a Display PortIf you have one 1920x1080 monitor and one PC life is pretty easy - just hook the two together with an appropriate cable.HDMI and DVI are electrically similar and passive bi-directional adapters easy to find so if your monitor is a bit long in the tooth and only has DVI that just needs a suitable adapter or HDMI<->DVI cable.Passive display port to HDMI adapters exist but rely on the card (or motherboard) detecting that it is connected to an HDMI port and switching signal standards - so they only work with DP at the computer end and HDMI on the monitor.If you have a higher resolution display then you need to know that HDMI 1.4 only supports 4k at 30Hz, which is useless for a PC monitor. It's not that much of a problem as a new graphics card will support HDMI 2.0 but it becomes a problem with Intel built-in graphics as they are stuck at HDMI 1.4 - so to drive better than 1920x1080 with Intel built in graphics you need to use Display Port (note that using a passive DP->HDMI adapter does not get round the problem).Additionally if you use a KVM switch with multiple PCs be aware that DP KVM's are not really a thing (few on the market and all very expensive). So a combination of a high res monitor, KVM switch and Intel built-in graphics can be a headache (guess how I know)