Electronics repair where thermal cam did help.  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Samogon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2016, 11:56:25 am
content: Hello.I am interested in buyiy Flir E4 for electronics repairs and hesitant if it worce the money.Can you tell your successful repair stories where cam was a proper tool?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2016, 12:06:28 pm
content: Hundreds of raspberry pi. Makes matter of seconds to figure out what causes increased current consumption.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2016, 12:09:14 pm
content: Or we can talk about unsuccessful design stories like Rigol DP832 which would be avoided if they briefly looked on the board with a thermal camera.BTW better not buy Flir E4, it has fixed focus which is not good for electronics. You won't be able to look closely on the board, image will be out of focus. Considerhttp://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/products/t-e-q1/IIRC ~$500 + $85 shipping

author: Samogon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2016, 03:24:46 pm
content: Hmm, such good thermal resolution for such a small device.I see they sell different lenses, should i buy additional? Or basic lense will should be enough?

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2016, 07:01:14 pm
content: Quote from: Samogon on November 15, 2016, 03:24:46 pmOn the link below you can see a difference betwen 13mm and 6mm lens.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/thermal-imaging-gallery/msg1069268/#msg1069268Imho single lens should be enough...

author: targit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2016, 01:54:52 am
content: I used my camera to find a shorted turn on the output transformer of a mini high voltage generator project. I didn't want to hook it up to any of my multi-meters as I was uncertain of the output voltage, and the camera was a great non contact way of seeing where the problem was.

author: Samogon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2016, 02:42:33 am
content: Got reasonably priced Flir e4 and going to hack it. Will check in my repair projects and if it will be ok i will keep it. If not, there is chance to sell it with some profit and get TE ad you suggested.

author: Samogon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2016, 04:19:53 am
content: Hack complete, and it is huge step from my FLIR One.It is definitely a keeper. I like that it is standalone device.Hassle with addon type devices are not my favorite.Will postmy repair success here where TIC helped.Thank you for input, hope to see another success stories.

author: Cat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2016, 03:51:31 pm
content: Quote from: Samogon on November 24, 2016, 04:19:53 amHave a look at my repair here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/lecroy-lc684dl-displays-random-signals/msg1074833/#msg1074833Without thermal imaging I would only measure the missing voltage and might measure directly at the voltage regulator and burned my fingers.With thermal imaging I could see in seconds where something was not right (hot VR) and few minutes later got the bad capacitor.I used a FLIR E60 with 45° lens. The Exx-Series provide an adjustable focus, but the minimum distance is ~50 cm. So if you want a closer look at components on the PCB you need the 45° lens which can focus down to ~5 cm. I also tried the macro lens, but it has a very small depth of field and only a narrow focus range. The 45° is my "always-on" lens.

author: SmartInfrared
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2016, 12:01:48 am
content: I am curious what can thermal camera do for the electronics repairs? And how? Can anyone share some examples? Thanks.

author: TheDefpom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2016, 12:28:38 am
content: If you look at my mailbag video below, at about 31 minutes onwards I show a cheap camera I purchased (costs ~US$280), and it shows me having a quick play around with it showing hotspots on a PCB, you can ignore the end of the video where I show the fault it had where the screen goes blank, I found some manufacturing faults and repaired it later.

author: Samogon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2016, 12:34:25 am
content: Quote from: SmartInfrared on November 25, 2016, 12:01:48 amJust above your message Cat provided his example.I have opened this thread with exact question you asked.Main application of thermal cam is to spot overheated componets this gives a hint that somthing is wrong in particular circuit part, it saves tons of time end measurements for EE no matter if it is repair or development.

author: Bondguy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2016, 06:04:41 pm
content: I would like to buy a thermal camera too. But not sure what model to choose. I will use it from time to time only, not daily. Can anyone give any clue?@Samogon:Why did choose Flir e4? And what hack did you make?@wraper: What kind of camera do you use? And is it still worth repairing raspberry pi?@TheDefpom: And what kind of cheap camera do you use?

author: TheDefpom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2016, 06:40:32 pm
content: Mine is an unbranded unit, available on Aliexpress, seem OK for occasional use, if I were to use it a lot I would invest the extra money and buy a higher quality one.

author: Samogon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2016, 04:29:05 am
content: Bondguy: E4 because with hack you can make it E8 for under $1kI was considering TermalExpert, but i wanted to have standalone deviceOnly cons that E4-8 has fixed lensFrankly I would love to have E40 but it is out of my budget. It could be ideal for EE projects.And here is E4 hackhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/

author: Jane
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2016, 07:35:54 am
content: It is a clever idea to use a thermal camera to find a culprit in a circuit.But what if a hot part ( IC, cap, resistor or whatever) is hotbecause of another part ( e.g. IC ) that was damaged and takes a lot of current?Example FET transistor is controlled by an integrated circuit and this integratedcircuit became damaged. As a result it takes a lot of currentthat goes through FET and hence that FET is hot .Another example. FPGA circuit is rather hot. Do you thinkit is fauly or there is another part around that causes FPGA te be hot?Will thermal camera help in these too?

author: pelule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2016, 11:01:24 am
content: Quotemy examples using the FLIR i3:had a short in the power supply of an 20 years old HP tool. Used the thermal cam to find the shorted Tantal capacitor. There have benn many of them on the board, the higher temperature in the defect was clearly to detect. There are alternative to find/locate such a problem, but the cam was the fastest.I also use the cam to check the conditions of the solar panels on my roof.

author: Samogon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2016, 02:58:41 pm
content: Jane: TIC is not a panacea it just can give you a hint where to to start checking, overloaded or shrted componets usually really hot sometimes 100C and above. As I understand FPGA operational conditions are 50-85C anything higher at least needs heatsinks.Right now i spotter transistor in the PSU which has 130C and it is not shorted, but looks like it is drived improperly, do i will chech opamps an surrounding components

author: bte2
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 26, 2016, 11:34:01 pm
content: Second day of having Flir C4, at customer's place of business:Him (not knowing I had a TIC): I wish I had a way to figure out how much propane in those (about 100) tanks. (Tanks were in a line against the building).Me (grabbed my new cam and a Sharpie): "I got this" (and as fast as I could walk past the tanks they were marked).15 minutes later, he said that one of his trucks would lose the headlights after they were on for a bit, and "we've tried EVERYTHING".Me: "I got this" and looked at the fusebox of the truck and quickly found the damaged contacts in the thing.Later that day, different customer:Him: "That car won't start on Monday morning".Me: "I got this" and saw the warm alternator that shouldn't be warm. Took 3 seconds, never put a probe to the vehicle.Later, Him: "That forklift is killing batteries".Me: "I got this" (sensing a pattern?). Looked the machine over and saw that someone miswired a gauge so it was always on. As fast as it took for the cam to warm up.That was the first day I had it.

author: Samogon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2016, 12:45:22 am
content: Bte2: impressive, very impressive.Thank you for sharing

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2016, 10:11:02 pm
content: Some examples of my thermal camera usage in repairs.....1. A friend sent a Sony ICF7600 Shortwave Radio to the Sony service centre for repair. It was returned along with a fat bill for almost as much as the radio cost. The radio worked OK on its mains adapter but would discharge the internal batteries even when switched off. She asked me to take a look at it to see what was wrong. I took a look at the main PCB with a thermal camera and immediately saw a problem. The audio power amplifier chip was running even when the radio was fully off. The cause...... the service tech had by-passed the MOSFET that controlled the power rail for the Audio stages ! The prat then forgot to replace the faulty part before returning the radio to the customer.2. Thermal camera with no image but all other functions were working. A quick look at the video processor PCB with a thermal camera showed one huge FPGA to be much cooler than the other identical parts on the board. It was not having to work for a living. The cause..... the FPGA was in permanent RESET due to a failed 74ACT255 transceiver that controlled the IC's Reset line.3. Handheld oscilloscope with noise bars on the screen then shutdown. The thermal camera revealed that one of the four DC-DC converters was running very hot and when the scope stopped working it was over 100C on the surface. The cause was a failed output capacitor.4. Power supply regulator fault on a PC motherboard that had no schematic. Using a thermal camera I could see which IC's were not running warm and identified the tiny regulator IC that supplied them and had failed.5. Several cases of underrated components or heat-sink's in working equipment. this enabled upgrades to prolong the life of the equipment.6. Non Electronic fault .... bearing in cooling fan motor getting too hot when viewed with thermal camera. Bearing failed so replaced.Fraser

author: Samogon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2016, 10:16:43 pm
content: Thank you Fraser,That kinkd of short descriptive thread i was dreamed to have, when was in decision making to buy TIC.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2016, 10:31:09 pm
content: Quote from: Bondguy on November 25, 2016, 06:04:41 pmI have flir i7 (140x140 resolution) which I'm going to get rid of because of the fixed focus. For electronics repair I use testo IR camera from my job (160x120 res, don't recall the model, and I'm abroad now). It is not better than i7 as an IR camera but adjustable focus makes it ten-fold more usable for electronics repairs.QuoteYes it is (considering the price I got them for, and that they were not cherry-picked). I certainly wouldn't buy lots of faulty pi at ebay.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2016, 10:49:19 pm
content: When using a thermal camera for PCB surveys I consider the following.....1. Is there any component getting hotter than would normally be expected ? If so why ? Overload, internal failure or poor design.2. Is(are) there any component(s) not getting as warm as expected in normal operation ? Failed/missing supply, not enabled, internal failure.3. Hot capacitors ? Never a good sign in general use and worthy of investigation. ESR and look for leakage.4. Hot connectors ? Often a sign of corrosion/arcing of poor design (under rated contact surfaces)5. Hot spots on large IC's ? This is normal for many IC's but can be a sign of trouble in those that are not functioning properly.Often offset from the centre and an internal power component failure.6. Are similar component srunning at similar temperatures? If not why not ? This may be absolutely normal depending upon the components tasking but in a group of the same IC, they often have similar dissipation. e.g. RAM IC's and buffer IC's7. In the case of a supply rail short and a need to find the cause..... use lab PSU with correct voltage set but higher current capability to supply the shorted power rail. The thermal camera can then image the PCB track supplying the shorted component. Often the PCB track and failed component will glow brightly compared to the background temperature if 1A is passed into the shorted track. Care is needed to not overload the PCB track. Lower currents are also effective by refrigerating the PCB to 5C before this test improves visibility of the PCB track and failed component at lower drive currents. If the component is dead short and does not heat up, the PCB track literally leads you by the nose to that part. Use the lowest current that works when doing this test to avoid stressing the PCB too much.8. Temperature of air leaving the cooling ports of an equipment ? Elevated temperatures at this exit port indicate trouble within. Such can be caused by blocked intakes/air filters, dust and dirt accumulation in fan radiators, overloading, overheating power components and underated heatsinks. If an equipment is checked over its operating life, the user can see any evidence of degradation in cooling performance, or overheating of internal parts. Good preventative maintenance.Just a few pointers from my experience.Fraser

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2016, 10:58:26 pm
content: I use my E4->8 with a ZnSe lens and 3D printed holder. Works extremely well for macro/electronics work.http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/321078811086?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&var=510102779731&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIThttp://www.thingiverse.com/thing:187166... only takes a few seconds to clip it on/off.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2016, 11:23:31 pm
content: For PCB inspection there is little doubt that a camera that is capable of manual very close focus is more capable than a fixed focus camera plus auxiliary lens. Both do work however. The fixed focus camera + close-up lens has a very small depth of field and the camera has to be moved back and forth to find correct focus. With a manual close focus lens the user is able to set the focus without moving the camera. Sharper images are also achievable with a manual focus lens as the optical block may be optimised for image focus rather than a compromise fixed focus design.What do I use ? My 'go-to' thermal camera for quick PCB checks is the E4 (320x240+menus) with a 100mm FL close up lensIt is just so convenient !I have a 160 x 120 Testo 880 camera that I should use more as it has manual focus BUT, many manual focus thermal cameras will only close focus to 30cm. This is too far from the DUT for me so I would still need a close-up lens ! The Testo has a large diameter lens, so a large diameter 100mm FL close-up lens would be needed. Such are not cheap but I do have a coupleFor really high quality images and in depth PCB thermal profiling I would use one of my FLIR PM series or NEC AVIO cameras as they were designed for such detailed work and have greater capabilities for thermal analysis.Given the choice, I would always buy a camera with manual focus in preference to one with a fixed focus lens block. I have many cameras so can see the difference in imaging performance in practical usage. The trouble is, decent manual focus 'all in one' thermal cameras tens to be the more expensive models in a range. There are manual focus mobile phone add-on thermal cameras now though. Not all are born equal though so care is needed in selecting which to buy.Finally...... Auto focus.... yes, some thermal cameras have an auto focus capabilityMy FLIR PM695 has both manual and auto-focus modesLuxury, pure luxuryFraser

author: Bondguy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2016, 09:13:39 am
content: Can anyone suggest a place which is the best place to buy that E4? (I mean a good price.)@Fraser:QuoteMust 100mm FL close up lens be bought separately? If so ,what is a common price?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2016, 11:02:04 am
content: Bondguy,Close up lenses are a DIY build for the E4. Details of parts are given a couple of posts back.The lens is around $22 and available from several Chinese suppliers. Different focal lengths are available. I use 100mm and 63mm FL lenses but a 50mm is also available.The lens holder 3D designs are available in several versions on Thingiverse. You can also make your own lens holder using modelling plasticard or even cardboard !Please read my 'E4 useful information' thread for more E4 related istuff.Fraser

author: Jane
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 05:25:28 pm
content: I can buy E4 at EUR750( seems OK price or not? Your comments, please). That camera is to be a brand new camera made last month. Will there a hack be possible too?

author: Samogon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 05:36:07 pm
content: Quote from: Jane on November 29, 2016, 05:25:28 pmThe price is ok in US you can get $900 newBut if read correctly new camera has 2.8.0 FW which has encrypted content and cannot be hacked directly,Downgrade to 2.3.0 is needed. I did not try it personally.

author: Samogon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 08:00:20 pm
content: Quote from: aargee on November 27, 2016, 10:58:26 pmCant order holder, i dont have 3D printer. Can someone who has 3D printer give me a quote for printing it for me please?