Crossover Ethernet Cable Confusion - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: dellsam34
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 12:09:31 am
content: Can anyone please tell me where can I find the official pinout of a crossover ethernet cable to make one to connect a video device with web interface connection to the computer? The manual says to use a cross-wired RJ-45 cable but didn't mention what type, Online search came up with more than 6 combinations of pin-outs, beyond just T568A and T568B wiring standards, I don't really care about the color as much as the position of the pins on the other end of the cable, kind of like this:Pin1 to Pin?Pin2 to Pin?Pin3 to Pin?Pin4 to Pin?Pin5 to Pin?Pin6 to Pin?Pin7 to Pin?Pin8 to Pin?Here is the manual for the device I'm trying to connect, Read from page 21:https://wwwapps.grassvalley.com/docs/Manuals/sam/conversion_restoration/TBS800_Operation.pdf

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 12:19:48 am
content: The easy way to remember is to use T568A on one side and T568B on the other.While technically color doesn't matter (except for humans) you definitely care about having the right pairs twisted.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 12:23:42 am
content: Also, pretty much any Ethernet switch or NIC made in the last 20 years will support auto MDIX, including 100% of gigabit capable devices but also a great many 100 megabit devices. Only one side needs to support it. So unless you are connecting this directly to another 10/100 only device that also doesn't support auto MDIX you don't need a crossover cable.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 12:32:40 am
content: See attached image.Keep in mind crossover cables are only for 10/100 Mbps connections where Auto MDI-X isn't supported by the network card or hub/switch. Almost all equipment made in the last 20 years will support Auto MDI-X. It's was a legacy thing normally used to connect two computers together without the use of a hub/switch, as early NICs didn't support Auto MDI-X. I honestly can't remember the last time I've needed to use one.Crossover cables aren't a thing on Gigabit networks, nor will it work with anything requiring Power over Ethernet.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 12:43:02 am
content: Reading the manual, just ignore it. If you are connecting to a windows PC rather than another embedded device chances are nearly 100% you don't need a crossover cable.

author: dellsam34
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 06:36:16 am
content: Just like online search I knew I was going to get mixed replies here, I think I'm just going to buy a premade cable just to rule out pinout issues, I've made few cables based on the suggestions here and none of them worked, the device says no cable -see attached, but I'm pretty sure this is more than just the cable, Having windows 11 64 bit and trying to setup a box from the 90's is not going to be easy, Any network experts out there that can guide me on how to get this setup right?

author: darkspr1te
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 06:53:15 am
content: If you are plugging direct from pc to device (TBS800) you will also need to set manual IP address on both devices pc and TBS(page 21 of manual) , if you connect via a HUB or router then you need to set both devices to DHCP and use normal LAN cables. It is most likely that using a normal lan cable should work in both setups as pc's often have the mdix switch built in.darkspr1te

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 07:36:44 am
content: Cross cables are only required for 10/100 Mbit cards. (Some 100Mbit cards can auto cross)All the modern computers have 1Gbit network cards that can detect when a cross is needed and swaps the TX RX pairs around internally.More of a thing is that by default a Windows PC will not provide the things that a router typically provides. Like a DHCP server to hand out IPs, a gateway for routing traffic out to the internet etc.. If you need any of this, then you need to manually set it up to provide that on that network card.

author: dellsam34
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 08:11:55 am
content: I did try manual IP setup, used random IP numbers, still says no cable, I will try straight cable and report back.Edit:Used a straight cable, I was able to see the green and orange lights on the back of the device, The default IP address is now showing 192.168.0.100, I went into advanced options and setup a manual network- see attached, but still both Edge and Chrome return nothing @http://192.168.0.100/,Any ideas? Does this has anything to do with Java or any display issues of the interface?

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 09:08:34 am
content: Wont work, cant work. You've set your network adapter's IP address to the same as the default one of the box, so they cant communicate. Also, if you've got multiple network adapters no other one can use the 192.168.0.0/24 subnet or it wont know which adapter to use to reach the box. 192.168.0.0/24 is likely to conflict with the default LAN subnet of many domestic and SoHo routers.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 09:43:41 am
content: Why not just plug this device into your home router? When set to Auto/DHCP mode, it will get an IP address issued by the router, then you can access it via your computer on the same network. That's the whole point of Ethernet, it doesn't require a direct connection between devices.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 11:13:10 am
content: First there were two wires.Then four and finally eight.From the beginning the power transfer was also an option.Before the current standard there were also cables with less than four pairs.Those cables were usually targeting multiple connection methods.Current standard A means that old system is used.There pairs 1 and 2 are used for data, so for that purpose pairs 3 and 4 are irrelevant.Later early version of power was added and pairs 3 and 4 were used, since power is unidirectional those pairs were not crossed, obvious back then.Next phase was early phase of current PoE.But since old style power transfer devices were still all around only pairs 1 and 2 were used.Later B standard faster fours pair system became dominant.But it still must recognize the old system.So for A system data, Halcyon's bicture, you cross pairs 1 and 2, pairs 3 and 4 you can leave out, if you like.For B system you also cross pairs 3 and 4, but normally B system is automatic.IP addresses must be in the same network.IPv4 mask 255.255.255.0 is a 32bit number, there set(1) bit means network.If one address is 192.168.0.100 and mask is as above three left octets define a network.So all 192.168.0.nnn addresses are in that network and can communicate.Leave few last and first numbers for special purposes.DHCP is a protocol where server is allocating addresses.If that kind of thing is part of the network don't use its address range for manually configured devices.Usually server is allocating addresses from the beginning of its range but don't count on it.

author: dellsam34
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 05:50:16 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 06, 2024, 09:43:41 amI can't, the router is too far from my capturing rig and I won't run 30ft cable to fulfil this requirement, I just have to make it work with what I've got.

author: dellsam34
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 05:54:46 pm
content: Thank you guys for the lectures and don'ts, but how do I proceed from here?

author: berke
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 06:00:05 pm
content: Try setting your computer to 192.168.0.101 and the device to 192.168.0.100 for example.Make sure no other network interfaces on your computer use 192.168.0.*

author: dellsam34
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 06:06:33 pm
content: Quote from: berke on February 06, 2024, 06:00:05 pmLet me see if I get this right: set up the the IP address in the menu in the attached picture right? what about the default gateway? The TBS800 has 192.168.0.200 in the default gateway, should I enter that or leave it blank?

author: dellsam34
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 06:25:15 pm
content: Setting up PC ip to 101 worked, See attached, however I couldn't pass company logo, no menus, nothing. If I click on upgrade it takes me to a firmware download page which no live links left anymore, but at this point the network problem I think is resolved, I have another unit, I will pull the SD card out of that one which contains the OS and see if I get better results. Thank you all.

author: berke
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 06:38:42 pm
content: It's not going to be able to talk to the outside Internet through your Windows machine like that, you would need to (a) setup your PC to act as a router, no idea how that works under Windows (b) you still need to define the gateway on the device. Can't you bring the damn thing near your home router, use DHCP and let it firmware upgrade first?

author: dellsam34
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 07:40:38 pm
content: I believe it's working as it should, Maybe a Java problem or something, The Snell & Wilcox company has folded 2 decades ago, It was taken over by Grass Valley but they don't support any of these devices anymore, Here is the upgrade link, you can try it yourself:http://snell.upgrader.tv/upgrader/snell/itp/devl/tbs7003/index.htmlNow I just have to figure out how to run an old java version browser, I know it is not going to be easy for my skill level.

author: dellsam34
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2024, 08:45:57 am
content: Is there any browsers that can still support Java, I've tried Edge, Chrome, Firefox and Opera browser and none worked.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2024, 08:55:45 am
content: You can still just spin up a Win 2000 virtual machine and install a old browser in there. (Just don't expose it to the internet, and or nuke it afterwards)

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2024, 02:47:01 pm
content: According to this:https://superuser.com/questions/1394999/how-do-i-run-java-appletsYou can download jdk10 or earlier and use a command line tool to launch an applet or convert it to a webstart package. That may be easier than trying to get an old browser working.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2024, 03:57:12 pm
content: If you have a legacy web page that requires Java, the K-Meleon browser still has Java support:http://kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/JavaPluginYou do however need the JRE installed, and will probably have to whitelist the sites you need in the JRE Java Conrtol Panel.

author: dellsam34
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2024, 04:54:23 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on February 07, 2024, 03:57:12 pmThanks Ian, This is sort of worked but still getting the message telling me Java has been blocked and the page is white except for the top banner:Java Plug-in 11.401.2.10Using JRE version 1.8.0_401-b10 Java HotSpot(TM) Client VMJRE expiration date: 5/16/24 12:00 AMconsole.user.home = C:\Users\latoa----------------------------------------------------c: clear console windowf: finalize objects on finalization queueg: garbage collecth: display this help messagel: dump classloader listm: print memory usageo: trigger loggingq: hide consoler: reload policy configurations: dump system and deployment propertiest: dump thread listv: dump thread stackx: clear classloader cache0-5: set trace level to <n>----------------------------------------------------

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2024, 05:13:04 pm
content: Press +keys and typeCode:configure javainto the search box. Open the Configure Java app. in the resulting Java Control Panel, go to the Security tab and use the 'EditSite List...' button to add an exception for the site containing the page (i.e. use the URL up to the / after the domain name or IP address).Next, exit and restart K-Meleon. If it fails to restart, it may not have exited cleanly and you will need to use task Manager to kill 'K-Meleon Web Browser' it then try again.The page should then work, but you may have to allow some permission dialogs the first time you load it.Try this Java version checker:https://atcsim.nasa.gov/version/index.html(for which you need to addhttps://atcsim.nasa.gov/to the whitelist)

author: dellsam34
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2024, 05:14:53 pm
content: Thank Ian, I really appreciate it, Finally got it working by allowing the URL in the Java setting, Now I have to figure out the scaling of the page, it looks too condensed:

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2024, 05:34:05 pm
content: You can *try* changing the K-Meleon zoom settings, but many appliance config web pages were hard coded for 800x600 or even 640x480 screen resolution, and their layout will suffer if you are using a high-rez display and the browser window is wider than 800 (or 640) px!

author: dellsam34
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2024, 06:15:44 pm
content: Not so fast... I don't think the interface is communicating with the device, I can make changes but they don't take effect and when I move a slider of a parameter and hit reset it won't go back to its default position, So I don't think it's fully functional yet. Any idea?

author: dellsam34
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2024, 07:05:12 pm
content: By zooming in the page I could see the status indicator on the bottom left corner is red, If the device is successfully connected it should be green according to the manual I posted a link to earlier:

author: dellsam34
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2024, 09:07:29 am
content: Major update, Problem resolved:There is this genius chap at digitalfaq.com who guided me through the steps to install a virtual machine and install Windows XP and Java in it with links to all necessary files, and after trial and error it finally worked, I got the green light status and I was able to change the settings and control the box from IE interface.