What happened to HP and Tektronix semiconductor divisions? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: dzseki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 08:20:08 am
content: Back in the old days, like ’60s and ’70s HP and Tektronix had their own semiconductor development labs to fulfill their special needs, at that time these semiconductors were probably ahead state of the art in their respect (otherwise they would not have been produced), this wasn’t so hard as the semiconductor market was just forming anyway. Although these devices were rarely sold separately, save for the HP LED displays and some diodes perhaps.But as time went by the new test gears were more based on off-the shelf computer structures and the need for custom ASIC went down greatly, while the complexity of the few ASIC still needed went up...Now, seeing the mergers of even not so small stand alone semiconductor copmanies, I am wondering how can (HP-Agilent-)Keysight or Tektronix keep up with semiconductor development compared with the multi billion dollar semiconductor enterprises in terms of innovation?I know Avago (Broadcom) is a HP semiconductor spinoff company, but their original profile (when they were separated) was rather select. I do not know any Tektronix spin off, what happened with these labs?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 08:39:47 am
content: AfaikTektronix -> MaximHP -> Avago -> BroadcomIt seems Broadcom has discountinued most of the parts.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 09:02:12 am
content: ... unfortunately yes. What I miss most are the very good Silicon MMICs that do not show the ghastly 1/f noise the new ones based on PHEMTs have.Example: INA02186.https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/rf-module-gallery/the-amplifier-module-gallery/mmic-amplifiers/an-ina02186-mmic-amplifier/

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 09:56:50 am
content: It’s kinda sad to me how practically none of the historical electronics companies (other than the dedicated semiconductor companies) still make semiconductors. I mean, Sony is the only one that comes to mind that’s still doing it, and even they have always been limited to ASICs, not general-purpose parts (with the arguable exception of CCDs and some DACs perhaps).When you think about e.g. RCA and Philips, I dunno, it’s kinda sad IMHO.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 10:33:09 am
content: The situation is probably not sooo bleak; Philips semi went to NXP, so still alive and really big, and Keysight does still make specialized semiconductors, like extreme performance front ends for their scopes. The standard stuff is made in an external fab, you are right there. Low volume, specialized stuff in your own fab has no chance against a top-edge external fab with the latest technology. One does not need to be sad as long the know-how stays with original guys.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 11:55:33 am
content: I know that all of their semiconductor divisions ended up elsewhere; my point is that they’re not part of the electronics company any more!Philips semi became NXP, their capacitors went to Vishay, etc. NEC semi got folded into Renesas, RCA’s became Harris became Intersil.I’m not surewhyit makes me sad, but it does!

author: dzseki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 12:01:43 pm
content: More companies can employ more managgers

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 12:04:25 pm
content: ... probably because it reminds you of the days when we were young and that days have irrevocably passed by. Sniff !Otherwise, I do find some (not all) new stuff quite awesome. Its a game of give and take, as usual.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 12:22:31 pm
content: The original (and still primary?) Maxim fab complex is still on the north-west corner of the Tektronix campus on Jenkins Road next-door to the fire station. And diagonally across the road from the Nike world headquarters.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 12:26:48 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on September 03, 2018, 12:04:25 pmYeah, even though I’m notthatold myself! (I was born just a few years before RCA’s demise, so it’s not like I ever really experienced “true” RCA equipment, for example.)

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 12:35:26 pm
content: ... then I'm a bit older than you (1961). I still enjoy fiddling with old parts:https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/parts/cockroach-components/https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/parts/zombie-parts/and I even make silly circuits with them (believe it or not, this is one of the most visited pages on my site, dont ask me why):https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/silly-circuits/silly-circuits-a-heated-lm723-reference/

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 12:36:30 pm
content: I also miss some of the good old German semis, like Telefunken and Siemens. Which of course became Infineon.What I have completely lost track is the British semis, like Plessey.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 12:48:28 pm
content: ... Telefunken Semiconductor (TEMIC), IIRC, has folded, but Infinieon is not doing bad at all.Plessey was split up between GEC, Siemens, Marconi and BAE. There is probably nothing left from them, I supposeMullard was absorbed by Philips

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 12:52:44 pm
content: Look what I found:An electron company cemetery where you can look up what happened to the shiny names of the past:https://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/where-are-they-now

author: jaromir
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 01:17:48 pm
content: Some mergers are herehttp://www.efton.sk/t0t1/semic_change.htm

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 02:20:48 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 03, 2018, 11:55:33 amI feel the same feeling of sadness/nostalgia. Perhaps because these brands evoked a sense of quality or familiarity that is unmatched by the newer names - I know that Philips, RCA, GE, Motorola and a few others do that to me.I witnessed a few and the reason for the split made a lot of sense: the big brother division (the consumer electronics) started to be technologically slowed down by the complacency of their smaller semiconductor divisions, which enjoyed an almost certain success in placing their parts into high volume products, while more capable competitor's parts were kicked out of the design very early on.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 03:24:55 pm
content: With smaller feature size came increased equipment cost. Up until about 1990, it was still feasible for a company to own a fab line. The last one I built was in Singapore back in '88. But the costs increased exponentially after that and multi-million dollar fabs became billion dollar fabs. There was no reason to stay in the jelly bean business because the foreign fabs had taken out all the profit and it was impossible to keep up with feature size.I remember people complaining about $1000/sf facility costs back in the late '70s. Those days are gone!So, design the chips and let some foundry build them.I've been out of that business since about '90 so I have no idea what is going on today but when I see companies like National getting swallowed up by companies like Texas Instruments I am delighted I got out before the crash.I hope there are enough fabs in the US to meet our defense needs. I would hate to rely on a foundry in the far east.I don't know if the fab still exists but apparently some National Semi folks ran a fab for the NSAhttps://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/01/10/nsa_runs_best_fab/In 2001 it was just a class 10 fab of 20,000 sf. That was a long time ago. And 20,000 sf is a pretty small fab...I have no idea where the technology stands today. I have seen pictures of 12" wafers and when I started, 2" was common and 3" was coming along. I think we were firmly at 4" and transitioning to 6" when I got out. 12" is a monster!

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 05:09:38 pm
content: When manufacturing analog chips for extreme oscilloscope frontends you are not using tiny features, nor do you need large wafers. What happened to the production lines for low volume specialized processes? They certainly not using the same lines that produces high volume phone processors.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 05:20:27 pm
content: I think the digital craze made the margins unappealing to make specialized parts when there is crazy advertising how DSP/MCU is the future of everything'we can correct for it in software'You can generally do it, its not as good typically, but it will work and no one knows whats better anymore (or why they need better). And its cheaper and easier too.I think the 'good enough' (we can sell it) mentality will eventually become a hindrance to scientific development.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 05:33:24 pm
content: thats right. You do not need 7nm processes. What you do need are exotic materials like InP, also presenting a lot of challenges. Another issue is gas guzzling.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 05:43:32 pm
content: My company, like rstofers, got out of the fab business in the early nineties when the cost of equipment went through the roof. It was partly higher costs for the newer generation equipment, but partly that the quantity of parts we could make to meet our own needs didn't cover the costs. Went to custom fabs, but that also became impossible as design rules and tools became expensive for smaller features and large parts, along with the cost of staff capable of doing the job for the relatively small number of designs we needed.The staff went off to other companies, the equipment was sold off and the facilities were either repurposed or sold.I believe this trajectory was common for all of the big companies whose core business wasn't selling silicon. It is not ideal, since there are unique things that can be done for each market, but nothing is perfect.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 06:34:11 pm
content: Quote from: glarsson on September 03, 2018, 05:09:38 pmThere is a lot of similarity between the common analog oscilloscope building blocks and simple transistor arrays (1) yet most transistor arrays are out of production now despite not having replacements with equal performance. Smaller analog fabs, and this includes the one Tektronix had, had to discontinue older processes when their supply chain dried up so even Tektronix had to move commonly used parts built on older fabrication processes to new processes. The result unfortunately was that while functional and pin compatibility was maintained, the parts had significantly different requirements as I discovered with the Tektronix155-0022-00being replaced with the234-0408-20which was even later produced by Maxim.The same thing has happened with entire series of medium power high frequency (low reverse transfer capacitance) high voltage transistors which are simply gone now. The last place I saw them is in the voltage gain stages of high performance audio power amplifiers. If you go looking for these types of parts on Mouser or Digi-key, they simply do not exist.I have run into the same problem trying to replace transistors in late 1960s oscilloscopes. All modern candidates lack the necessary performance and this was not even for a specialized part!(1) The basic building block is a long tailed pair or differential amplifier which is interconnected with other differential amplifiers to make transconductance amplifiers, paraphase amplifiers, and current switches for multiplexers and demultiplexers.

author: cvanc
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 07:21:57 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on September 03, 2018, 06:34:11 pmNot to sidetrack too far but can you give some examples? Thanks.

author: dzseki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 07:39:53 pm
content: Quote from: cvanc on September 03, 2018, 07:21:57 pmI think most of the CRT driver transistors should be mentioned here, the better ones like BFQ232/252 MRF548/549 etc

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 09:05:49 pm
content: I actually was not thinking of the CRT output transistors as they are very specialized but see below about audio VAS transistors.The small signal low capacitance transistor we had trouble with over on the TekScopes@groups.io email list was the 2N2207 used in the 547 unblanking circuits. This is a germanium PNP part but the application is nothing special so I assumed it would be easy to find a suitable modern silicon replacement. As it ends up, it was nearly impossible because they were all too slow due to excessive output capacitance.The same issues comes up in audio power amplifiers with the VAS (voltage amplifier stage) which is usually a common emitter transistor in the second stage. Output capacitance limits performance so the audio guys are always looking for low output capacitance parts. CRT drivers were the main source for these but without CRTs there is no demand and they are no longer produced. You can find a lot of discussions about this on thediyaudio forums.The Fairchild 2SC3503/KSC3503 and 2SA1381/KSA1381 are examples of parts like these that are still available. The vertically integrated Japanese companies like Toshiba used to make these types of parts for internal use but also sold them to others.The transistors that I really miss though are all of the high frequency medium power TO-39 cans which used to be available. The best of the TO-126/TO-225 parts just do not compare.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 09:15:44 pm
content: Well, if you like TO-3 devices, there are still some on eBay and in ham radio shops. What you can still get is:- 2N3866- 2N4427- 2N5109PNP ones are much harder to find. I was able to get a little box of the following:- 2N5160 (PNP complement to 2N3866/2N5109)- 2N5161 (PNP complement to 2N3375). I was really luckywhat is still no problem is- 2N2219A- 2N2905Awhat I also managed to get are "propeller" case transistors like the BRF96 (NPN) and BFT95 (PNP).

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 09:54:41 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on September 03, 2018, 09:15:44 pmThe 2N3866, 2N5109, and 2N5160 are good examples which show up in a lot of old application notes for medium power high frequency output stages. What I want to know is what replaced them? There is sure nothing in TO-126/TO-225 or TO-220 packages and the surface mount alternatives are lower power and rely on the printed circuit board for heat sinking. What I have seen some designs do is use multiple lower power transistors in parallel for each one.I forget the part numbers but the TO-39 output transistors in my function generators are another example.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 10:03:17 pm
content: I am not exactly an SMD freak, so I go along with the TO-39 parts as long as I can get them.An SMD part that could be interesting would be the BFG135 from NXP.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 10:34:55 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on September 03, 2018, 10:03:17 pmNXP has some great parts but they lack the voltage and power ratings. Also, availability has been hit and miss. The last time I looked, the BFG31/BFG97 and BFQ149/BFQ19 (1W 15V 100mA) were the most interesting to me but now all but the BFQ19 are discontinued.The BFG135 page says, "Archived content is no longer updated and is made available for historical reference only."

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 10:40:36 pm
content: Agreed, but it is still widely available and cheap. Do you need your components for mass-producable industrial design or just on a hobby scale ?I am a radio amateur myself (DL1DWG), and as long I have enough parts in supply for what I need (and maybe some colleagues) I have no bias against vintage parts.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 10:53:26 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on September 03, 2018, 10:40:36 pmI was considering them for a hobby level production run of 10s to 100s of units. Those projects will be put on hold until an alternate source is found.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 11:15:41 pm
content: Do you have a schematic of what you want to make ?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 11:47:17 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on September 03, 2018, 11:15:41 pmAmong other things, it is just replicating the NIST reference level pulse generator output stage and similar stuff which requires PNP RF transistors.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 12:03:06 am
content: I googled this but did not find something relevant. Are they similar to the broadband amps of Jim Williams ("High Speed Amplifier Techniques") ?Do you have a link to find the docs ?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 12:34:50 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 03, 2018, 02:20:48 pmBrands used to be relevant. A company designed and produced their own products, which carried their brand. Employees at the better companies took pride in their job and cared about more than quarterly gains. Over time there has been a gradual shift toward brands being nothing more than a name that gets marketing types excited over creating a brand image, which is often bought/sold and slapped onto various stuff manufactured by the lowest bidder. Today I consider brands to be virtually irrelevant, most of them are just a name for marketing purposes. Most of the brands I recognize have no connection with the companies founded with them.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 12:52:51 am
content: QuoteThis is a nice part and it is a shame it is obsolete. However, a few years ago I bought a mini reel of them by mistake from Farnell. I've still got it somewhere (still vacuum sealed). Luckily the price was fairly cheap as they were going obsolete and Farnell were selling them cheap in large qty. I think the mini reel has 150-200 genuine BFG135 parts in it and I couldn't be bothered to send it back to Farnell as it was too much hassle.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 12:56:43 am
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on September 04, 2018, 12:03:06 amNo, these are mostly cascode switching designs although I was also considering the transistors for class-A and class-AB output stages. The NIST reference level pulse generator design is very similar to other reference level pulse generator designs like the Tektronix PG506 and 7000 series standardizers. Jim Williams published his own variation as well shown below which I forgot about. The NIST (NBS) documents are too large to post here but you should be able to find them as NBS technical note 1067.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 02:03:27 am
content: When I worked for General Instruments, we had our own semi division.GI Semi had produced the first video game on chip IC, as well as some sound generators. They produced some low horsepower microcontrollers.I remember that fact because for our top of the line cable box we had to employ a Zilog device.Eventually corporate became tired of the Semi division and spun it off. Which became Microchip.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 02:14:14 am
content: When I look at the circuit diagram (Fig. 3-6) of your proposed NBS technical note 1067 I can only see garden variety 2N3906 and 2N4250 PNP transistors in it.These are widely available even today, in TO-92 or even in SMD. The only exotic part is the BFR90, which can still be bought new from german ham radio stores.I cant see why it could be a problem to build this in 2018. Did I miss something ?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 03:07:19 am
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on September 04, 2018, 02:14:14 amI do not want to duplicate the NBS/NIST design and its performance; I already have something better. I want to build a faster one and see just how fast an edge it can generate. And the polarities have to be swapped to reverse the pulse edge so an NPN output version and a PNP output version are required for both edges.

author: xaxaxa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 04:45:24 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on September 03, 2018, 09:54:41 pmIf all you want is a medium power RF amplifier in the VHF band, to-39 bipolars (or bipolars in general) are absolutely not what you want to use these days; any cheap LDMOS transistor made for the purpose will be much more efficient; e.g. RQA0009, or any cellular base station transistor.

author: duak
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 05:11:32 am
content: Wavetek used a lot of 2N3866A and 2N5160 transistors in their function and pulse generator outputs. These were from Motorola's RF line and were optimized for VHF. I believe they had multiple ballasted emitters. I was able to get a few of each last summer from Digikey. I think Central still makes them. I have a bunch of 2N4427s from a project that developed a 33 channel laser diode array driver. Something like a 2N2219 was too slow.HP used those or 2N5943 and 2N5583 which have an even higher FT.Does anyone know if Maxtek is still around? We had them package a number of our ASICs in a hybrid for us in the early 2000's. I believe the fellow that ran it (Jeff?) also designed/worked on the 453 scope in the 60's. When he toured me around the facility, I said that when I was younger I had thought that Tek would be a company I'd like to work for.xaxaxa: is there a P-channel complement to the RQA0009? If so, then an output stage for a 50 MHz function gen might be an application.Cheers,

author: dzseki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 07:35:18 am
content: Quote from: duak on September 04, 2018, 05:11:32 amThere were MRF variants of these: MRF5943 and MRF5583, packed in SO-8, interestingly their ft data seem to be the opposite of the 2N counter part, ie. 1.3GHz on NPN, and 2.1GHz on the PNP part.My all time favorite mid power RF transistor is the 2SC3616 with its ruler flat gain-current curve, sadly it is without a PNP complement...

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 12:06:03 pm
content: Quote from: xaxaxa on September 04, 2018, 04:45:24 amThese were transistors intended for medium power RF amplifier applications but used in linear and sometimes switching circuits instead where a MOSFET part would usually be at a significant performance disadvantage not even counting the lack of complementary pairs.Quote from: duak on September 04, 2018, 05:11:32 amCentral makes a lot of these obsolete parts but at a premium price.At one point Tektronix had a special version of the 2N3866 made for them with the TO-39 pinout changed to swap the base and collector for common-base cascode applications.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 08:17:33 pm
content: IBM did an interesting thing with its semiconductor manufacturing some years ago:https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/10/struggling-ibm-pays-1-5-billion-to-dump-its-chipmaking-business/Yeah, it's sad... and I don't see how new companies can even hope to enter the semiconductor business, with the initial costs being that extreme.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 08:52:28 pm
content: Quote

author: rfeecs
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 09:57:57 pm
content: Quote from: daqq on September 04, 2018, 08:17:33 pmRock's Law:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_second_lawQuote

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 01:36:10 am
content: I wonder if that will ever stop, Moore's Law already is not holding up so well anymore as I recall. At some point we will reach the physical limits of the materials. Already computers have reached the point where they are not needing to get more powerful, a 10+ year old PC is still usable unless you're gaming or video editing.