First PCB EDA Tool? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: SeoulBigChris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2019, 10:24:05 am
content: I have a friend who has recently gone deeply in "maker mode". So far it's been mechanical, which 3D printing and such.He told me last week that he's expanding into electronics, taking an online course on PCB layout (I believe it is a Udemy course). The course teaches using Circuit Maker.Thinking about how I learned, I didn't have much choice because the technology dictated my progress. In fact, I already knew the basics about laying out PCB before I ever touched an EDA tool, because I'd hand-taped several boards in college.Once I started working, I used Orcad DOS & Windows, Cadence, PCAD, PADS, Kicad. Until recent years, these packages were provided by my job.Since I already know how to design/make a PCB, to coming up to speed on a new tool presents a certain set of challenges, usually not TOO difficult. But for someone coming at it from zero, there's more to learn. So this got me thinking, in 2019, what would be the best way to learn PCB layout from scratch? Would you suggest they hand-tape something first? Jump right into a $10K tool?Q: All things being equal, what would be the best EDA tool to learn first?

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2019, 01:36:58 pm
content: If you are a Windows user, and know your way around standard windows programs: Take a look at Diptrace.It is very easy to use, and therefore you can learn the principles of PCB design, instead of learning how to use a software.The free version has, as far as I know, all features but is PIN limited. But that is enough to get a feel for it. In my opinion, as a hobbyist, or "maker" as you say, investing into one of those ridiculously expensive packages makes no sense.If you want a more powerful tool, and do not mind having a steeper learning curve, take a look at KiCad. Be prepared to be frustrated though, it's usage is often very clunky.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 06:17:55 am
content: I am a big fan of KiCad (and Open Source software in general), and it would be impossible for me to give an un biased or objective opinion.Over the last 30 years I've used 10+ different PCB packages, and as a hobby-ist it is simply not an option to pay EUR 1000 for any program. I've bought at least 4 different licences for schematics/ PCB programs. From some of my older schematics are simply gone. They were made by obsolete software in the DOS age. From some more recent schematics all that's left are a multomap with printed schematics, PNG screenshots I made for a website, or PDF files.(Tip: Always add PDF's and gerbers when archiving a project).I've bumped into artifical pin or or board size limits a few times. Back then this was much more of an issue than nowadays. Just compare a DIP40 Z80 with separate RAM / Eprom / Buffers / expansion connectors / etc, with a single chip SMD microntroller.When you bump into such a limit you simply can not finish your project unless you cough up EUR 1000.In those 30 years I've had 2 absolute disasters with software I paid for. One was EdWin, which sometimes did not remove connections from the netlist wen schematic wires were deleted, which can very easily lead to faulty PCB's. That was an instant EUR 125 down the drain. It did not get fixed. I believe the whole company collapsed.The other was from "UltiBoard". (Which I bought twice). The first DOS version which I bought at a small price while still in highscool. It was pretty simple and single minded, but I learned to work with it reasonably well. The second Windows version however I bought at a trade fair and they kept sending me "updates" of beta versions which were often so buggy that I could not even start the program. In the meantime they also started sending increasingly larger bills for those garbage updates which accumulated to over EUR 700, which I never paid.Then Ultiboard got bought and I tried a cracked version of the EUR3000 version of their program. If you dared move a schematic symbol with 40 odd pins or so the wires got all tangled and connected diagonally and you needed to spend 15 minutes to untangle them again. Yuch! That complany added new and often very buggy features faster than old bugs got fixed. This was so bad that I vowed to never ever use future versions of that software again.A few years ago, when Windoze started with the "Blue Tiles of Death" on the startup screen instead of a normal menu I had enough and switched to Linux completely, which resulted in a lot of my old schematics becoming inaccesible. I could get some Windoze CD and try to install it on an old laptop, install those old programs and try to retrieve but that's probably more trouble than it's worth.Under Linux I've tried 5 or 6 different Schematics/PCB programs briefly.gEDA was usable, but you had to learn at least 2 completely different programs, there is no overlap in the UI between the schematics and PCB part.I tried Eagle, Diptrace, Fritzing and a few others (Lochmaster?). Some of those were simply not usable at all for anything but the most symplistic projects. with others, they somehow did not map / connect well in my brain. In retrospect It might have been simply because I did not spend enough time getting used to it. the whole process from Idea to schematic and PCB is pretty complex and the software is so to. Each and every Schematic / PCB program I've used in the last 30+ years has its idiosyncracies and weird things. But as long as they are not too big (such as the 2 examples above) you learn to live with it.With KiCad, I started with playing around a bit and it looked like a capable program, even though it was indeed pretty "clunky". There were no big show stopper bugs however, so I scratched myself behind my ears and thougt a bit about it. Still undecided I found the "Getting started with KiCad" guide onhttp://docs.kicad-pcb.org/#_getting_startedand with that tutorial I got familiar with KiCad's design cycle and made my first PCB in a single afternoon, and that was te day I fell in love with it.One feature in KiCad that I have not seen in any other program but I've grown to like very much is that you have to put "no connect" crosses on each and every pin that is unused.It is simply an ERC error to leave a pin open. If you accidentally erase a wire, or draw it too short so you can only see it is not connected when zooming in, then KiCad will put big arrows on the unconnected pins and make a list of those errors when you do the ERC check.This fits very well with the way *MY* brain works. I much prefer strict programming languages where all variables have to be declared, compared to programming languages such as Python, when if you mis spell any variable it simply becomes a new one and you have to start bug hunting to find the error. When trying to learn Python I got into "Meld" (A source code comparison program). It had a bug and I wanted to find it and make a patch. I did find the bug, it was a few missing spaces. Because of this a line of code which should have been part of a loop was not in the loop, but executed once after theloop exited. Yuch!In the last 4 years I've seen KiCad grow and mature. It is now so good that is has simply become the best Schematics / PCB program that I've ever used. (Except maybe the programs I discarded early). Sometimes I read reviews of KiCad or comparisons with other programs (mostly Eagle). Eagle used to be "free" (as in free beer, not freedom) and when Autodesk bought it and changed it to ransomware, interest in KiCad spiked. The idea of having to keep paying subscription fees indefinately with an axe over my head, because else all the schematics and PCB I've made myself will become inaccessible is so mind bogglingly black in my head that I simply refuse to even consider it as viable. Never ever will I fall into that trap again.Same with "cloud" based programs. Never ever wil I depend on those.Sometimes I read reviews about KiCad, and they regularly do not do it justice. Often it is because it is very difficult to write good reviews about such programs. Every scheamtics / PCB program that is any good is inherently complex, and you have to get to know it quite good to learn to use it effictively, and quite some of the "reviews" seem to have been made by people who do not know KiCad very well.KiCad is also improving quite fast over the last few years. This means that reviews written 3 years ago about KiCad are simply not very relevant anymore. Another reason that making a decent review of KiCad is difficult is because of the nature of Open Source programs. In KiCad there are often multiple different ways to do the same. In KiCad 4 there was a "Cairo" and an "OpenGL" canvas and you can switch between 3 variants with , , . These buttons shift quite a lot of functionality around in KiCad. Menu options are greyed out, popup menu's change completely.The reasons for this are historical, and quite logical. When the developers of KiCad add / improve significant features, then those features are often released early in KiCad to get feedback on bugs and on ideas on how those features can best be further improved. If you want to help improve KiCad you can try the New features before they are mature. If you want a stable program to just design a PCB then you simply stick to the way you used to. At some point though those new features start to work much better than the "old way" and it becomes silly to hang on to the old way of doing things. In between there is a grey area. There was a time when the "interactive router" in KiCad was new and absolute killer feature, but I still found myself witching back to the "old way" to do some block operations which were not implemented yet in the OpenGL canvas.However, if you are reviewing KiCad and you start with the old (obsolete) ways of doing some things without knowing this, then it can easily lead to a bad review and/or premature abandonment of KiCad.In the new KiCad V5.0.2 the old "Cairo" and the "OpenGL" canvasses have been renamed to "Legacy Toolset" and "Modern Toolset", which is much clearer to users.One of the reviews complained a bit about the interaction between the schematics and PCB part of KiCad. All components need to have a valid refdes (Reference Designator) and having to make an update of the "netlist" (table of connection of all the schematic wires which has to be turned into copper) as a separate step before importing in Pcbnew (PCB part of KiCad).You can still work with these netlist files, but in KiCad 5 you can also simply press  in Eeschema to update the netlist and import changes into Pcbnew.I just started the KiCad project manager, Then EEschem and pressed . It started Pcbnew for me and attached 2 new transistors (Last change in schematic) to my cursor for placement. Very nice and convenient, but if you don't know that and stick to the old ways it feels "clunky" or old fashioned.There are also many shortcuts in KiCad to speed things up. Once you learned to work with KiCad these are extremely nice. With one hand on my mouse and the other on the keyboard this is a real productivity boost.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 06:26:41 am
content: I will also vote for KiCad, it's powerful, has no artificial limitations, it's completely free, and has been steadily improving.I played around with every EDA I could get my hands on back when I started and I came to the conclusion that they all suck. They're all clunky and buggy, they all have some UI issues that are a pain, in the end you just have to pick one and persevere until you get the hang of it, then the issues stop being issues and you just focus on making boards. The general workflow is pretty much the same in any EDA.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 09:48:57 am
content: There is a similar thread a few lines down with lots of suggestions.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 12:26:54 pm
content: This is probably the thread mentioned by nctnico:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/best-cad-program-to-do-learn-for-pcb-design/?allI do not expect it to be "a few lines down" in a month's worth of time. It may even be "one line up" today.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 12:53:56 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 01, 2019, 06:26:41 amYou are correct. Those of us who are unhappy with our choice of PCB CAD software will keep looking around until we find one we do like.I moved from Protel to Altium to Proteus to ............ DipTrace 4 years ago. I've now stopped looking at other CAD programs as I'm now happy with what I've chosen.DipTrace is not as powerful as Altium Designer, but I prefer its GUI & work flow processes. It is very capable & one could easily layout a PC motherboard with it if required.