Home Lab (Building Question, non EE) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 01:51:42 am
content: Hi All,I am working on converting my garage into a room for my home lab and office, and I have a general question I hope someone here knows the answer to. I live in New South Wales Australia, and my garage has an external wall, I believe it is 1/2 brick but I am inexperienced in these things so might be wrong. There is a window in the wall and it appears that it supports the end of the roof. My question is, there are two vertical pillars on it either side of the window (photo attached), I want to remove these if possible so I can put framework right to the wall and run cables inside the wall. Space is already precious and I do not really want to place the framework over these if I can avoid it. These pillars are only mortered to the wall as far as I can see, and it appears that one or two bricks were removed from the top when the house was constructed to fit in the cornice.So in short, the question is: Can I remove these two pillars without compromising the wall or NSW AU building codes?

author: Vgkid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 02:44:59 am
content: Is it topped in a metal plate?It almost looks like an add on.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 02:46:37 am
content: Quote from: Vgkid on February 09, 2016, 02:44:59 amNo, just the mortar from when they removed the brick on the top.Looking closer at them now, you might be right, the bricks are different to the house bricks, mortar looks different, and they are actually starting to come away at the top

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 02:54:38 am
content: There is a good chance there is a vertical supporting metal (or wooden) post that ends just below the top row of bricks. The weight from the roof has been transferred to a vertical cross member that sits several bricks down from the top of this brick column.

author: cravenhaven
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 02:56:30 am
content: I would strongly suggest that you dont remove these wall supports. Brick walls are basically individual bricks balanced on top of each other and the mortar merely a pad between them to stop them sliding away. That pillar gives the wall a bit of sideways strength so that it doesnt topple over or crumble (eg in an earthquake). Removing that top one to run the cornice through is a bit naughty but probably doesnt affect the overall strength too much unless there is a major roof beam in that area.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 03:15:53 am
content: Quote from: cravenhaven on February 09, 2016, 02:56:30 amOk, I guess it would be best then to build around them

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 04:23:16 am
content: Get a professional opinion, but I can't imagine it adds much strength. It's nothing but a stack of bricks (how sturdy and stable is that?) stuck to an existing wall with a bit of mortar. The bricks don't even resemble those used for the wall. Probably just something added as decoration after the original construction.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 04:43:15 am
content: They're not part of the bond, so unless there's a tie plate hidden in there, they're not doing anything useful. If they were actual support columns they would be part of the wall, not stuck on the side of it.Whole lot will probably come tumbling off with one good swipe with a sledge.If there's no lintel above the window, then I'd have to agree with the earlier comment about a steel behind them.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 05:05:38 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 09, 2016, 04:43:15 amThere is a lintel over the window. I just climbed up and noted the two top ones were already loose, so I picked them up... the entire thing is deffinatly an afterthought, there is no way this is providing any support to the wall. There is also mortar on the window frame, which seems wrong, i thought windows were installed after brickwork was completed.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 05:09:27 am
content: Well hell, keep popping them off and see if anything lurks behind. It's not going to make the garage collapse in on you.Windows are often installed as the bricks go up, it's faster.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 05:33:27 am
content: Heh, I continued and discovered their purpose...It hides the ugly edge of the cut 1/2 bricks used around the window

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 02:08:35 pm
content: Those are support beams for structural beam in the ceiling. Required as extra strength in the building code. You can remove them if nobody finds out or your ceiling falls down.It has to do with the open distance the Garage has a large area of un-supporting structure hence the need for the beam.The likelihood of the ceiling coming down is little but I suppose it was introduce to prevent the potential for collapse.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 02:12:02 pm
content: I would build around them.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 04:49:44 pm
content: Quote from: mswhin63 on February 09, 2016, 02:08:35 pmCurious support 'beam' (column, it's vertical.). It has no strength. You can't just stack bricks on top of each other.

author: Vgkid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 05:17:30 pm
content: Quote from: gnif on February 09, 2016, 05:33:27 amThat is dodgy.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 07:19:55 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on February 09, 2016, 04:23:16 amI agree with this. Especially about the part getting the opinion from a professional!

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 08:05:43 pm
content: I'd say they are there for a reason. I recently just built a place in the Blue Mountains... if you need a recommendation for a good local builder, feel free to PM.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 08:31:06 pm
content: bricks stacked on top of each other without any kind of interlocking ? that structure has no strength. i bet the roof is anchored to a concrete ring atop of the walls and the walls are supporting your roof. those strange "pillars" are most probably a decoration. it's definitely not a support to make anything earthquake proofthose "pillars" has ZERO resistance to lateral forces.but ask a local expert - just to be on the safe side

author: HAL-42b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 09:06:37 pm
content: Architect here.There is a full run of bricks at the back. It there was load bearing structure inside you would have 1 - Interrupted run of bricks. 2 - Structure continuing to the roof.Verdict: Clearly an afterthought. I would knock them down without giving them a second thought.

author: Addicted2AnalogTek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 10:39:19 pm
content: A better picture which shows more of the wall and structural surroundings would be of help in verifying this, but it appears that the brick pillars you are referring to either had a beam across them or were used for some aesthetic choice in a remodel. If you can pop the top brick or two off with ease and nothing behind them makes apparent their reason for being, then I don't see any reason why they need to be there at all. If you begin removing them and find something that makes you uneasy, then post some pictures of what you've found.Just so you know, I am actually a building contractor. I'm commercially licensed but only do residential work.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2016, 11:35:43 pm
content: Thanks everyone for the help. I pulled one pillar down completely, never found anything that binds thne wall to the pillar, once I started taking the top few off the entire thing let go from the wall and became a hazzard. I am super glad they can be removed as it simplifies the framing a ton, and wont obstruct cables in the wall... as I am sure you are all aware, in a lab you can never have enough power or data points, I plan to have a ton.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 01:47:35 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 10, 2016, 12:12:55 amDon't take the bet.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2016, 07:26:52 am
content: No ties to the main wall, eh? Coming away from the wall already?These are the things that kill small children when they unexpectedly fall over.I'd remove them, no structural effect unless ties are used, better still - offer a builder a six pack to have a quick looks and advise you.Do it this way -->

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2016, 12:21:20 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 09, 2016, 04:49:44 pmSupport columns not beams, sorry. They have twice the amount of brick to lay the support metal beam across. Use to support large wooden beams years ago. In some cases I have seen metal post inserted inside them to offer even stronger support. I used to crawl through many roof spaces installing antenna and telephone cables in my time and you get to know what is around.

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2016, 12:36:59 pm
content: Here is a picture that shows what those columns are used for.https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3o4eums8_VE/TyeqyzP_bmI/AAAAAAAABXY/AEAHy6n75k0/s800/DSCF2893.JPGNow you need to wait till the load is enough to down the ceiling,

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2016, 01:11:25 pm
content: If they were originally intended to be load-bearing, they would have been tied in to the brickwork behind them, either by regularly spaced tie courses that would be visible in the column as end-on pairs of bricks, or by metal brick ties set into the joints. No such ties were found and one of the columns was found to be loose once the top couple of bricks were removed, so if any load had been placed on it it would probably have buckled inwards towards the room and collapsed. Also, unless the window was opened up afterwards, one would expect that reinforcing pillars would be of the same type of brick.However it would be worth seeking local expert advice on whether it would be advisable to reinstate them on the outside of the wall, with proper footings and fully tied in to the existing brickwork.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2016, 02:06:26 pm
content: Quote from: mswhin63 on February 11, 2016, 12:36:59 pmOf dubious utility, constructed like that.I guess we didn't send many good brickies down under!

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2016, 03:03:18 pm
content: Quote from: gnif on February 09, 2016, 11:35:43 pmThat was a very dangerous construction. Every professional builder or architect would have advised to remove it immediately.Quote from: mswhin63 on February 11, 2016, 12:36:59 pmWhen properly attached to the wall, or included in the construction. There are multiple solutions for doing that.The simplest is to drill a hole at a horizontal angle and put a bar or even a long screw every 3 to 5 rows.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2016, 03:09:26 pm
content: Quote from: Galenbo on February 11, 2016, 03:03:18 pmNo, the simplest is to bond the column into the wall when you build it.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2016, 03:10:52 pm
content: Seems you were 4 seconds faster than my last edit.