buying bench-top multimeter under 1000$ - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: nour
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 08:12:04 pm
content: As mentioned in the titleI would like to ownnewbench-top multimeter under 1k$I have found 2 options1-Keithley 2100 ** 879$2-BK Precision 5492B ** 553$which is better and is there anything to avoid if one of those devices chosen ?also is there another models that is considerable under 1K$EDIT:***I am looking for quality over other factors***

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 08:15:30 pm
content: Welcome to the forum.Consider also the Siglent SDM3055.Check the forum for theads on this model.http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=176&T=2&tid=37

author: nour
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 08:22:51 pm
content: I don't know anything about this branddoes it have good reputation around here!

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 08:25:43 pm
content: Quote from: nour on November 18, 2015, 08:12:04 pmIf I remember correctly the Keithley 2100 is an OEM from Picotest, I don't remember the model. Sometimes you can get a better deal going to the source.You can still get new Keysight 34401A though they have been discontinued. Some stores even have Agilent branded new meters for under $800Also, right at the edge of your limit is the Keysight 34460 and 34461. The 34461A is $1020 after the EEVBlog discount at TEquipment.net while the 34460 is a tad bit less.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 08:43:18 pm
content: Quote from: PedroDaGr8 on November 18, 2015, 08:25:43 pm.It's Picotest M3500A. AFAIK mostly is considered as a meter with many issues. It's voltage reference is very noisy VRE310J which is inferior to LM399. Some Russian guy modded it with LM399, IIRC he's a member of this forum but don't recall his nickname. On the graph: blue - before the mod, purple - after.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 09:19:44 pm
content: Quote from: nour on November 18, 2015, 08:22:51 pmThen it's about time you were introduced to the leading manufacturer of oscilloscopes by shipments in China.You will not find better product support for other brands than for Siglent products on this forum.Here's the SDM3055 thread listing release, product development, video reviews and links to latest Firmware.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-new-bench-dmm-sdm3055/

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 09:24:32 pm
content: I'd seriously consider an Agilent if it is in your budget long before a Siglent product.

author: nour
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 09:25:24 pm
content: @wraperso you are saying it is preferable to avoid the Keithley model 2100 !! andok what about the other one: BK Precision 5492B does it worse the money!?

author: branadic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 09:55:00 pm
content: As long as you don't even know companies that deliver bench-top multimeters I recommend you better save the bugs and start right at the beginning. My guess is, you don't really know what you need and just want to spend some money.However, a used and calibrated device is even more worth the money than a new one.

author: nour
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 10:54:46 pm
content: Quote from: branadic on November 18, 2015, 09:55:00 pmI know some brands not all of themI am not a professional I am a hobbyist and I am not a beginner though, I just want to take my skills to the next levelI want something to use for about a year or so and after that I am planning to buy a high precision equipment.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 11:03:37 pm
content: Quote from: branadic on November 18, 2015, 09:55:00 pmI have to second this.

author: nour
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 11:11:35 pm
content: by the way, everyone is saying EEVBlog discount promo codewould someone please point me to this code

author: nour
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 06:56:18 am
content: So far no one commented on the BK Precision 5492B !!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 09:32:32 am
content: Vici VC8145 (4.5 digits). They go for aroung $160 and they feature 20A current measurement, capacitance, temperature and very fast continuity, etc. Feature wise these give many much more expensive bench meters a run for their money so if 4.5 digits is enough (and it usually is for general purpose work) then the VC8145 is nearly impossible to beat.

author: bdivi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 01:02:14 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 19, 2015, 09:32:32 amVC8145 is a joke in a thread about $1000 multimeters. Have you seen the internals (or lack of)?

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 01:09:00 pm
content: Take a closer look to the Keysight 34461AIf you have the money, you will not make a mistake with this meter.

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 01:44:11 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on November 19, 2015, 01:09:00 pmYep, that is why I mentioned it. It has ALL of the features most of us could want or need out of a bench multimeter. The increased current range (down to 100uA and up to 10A) in particular is a large benefit over the 34401A. The 34401A is likely the better value due to some places selling them for as low as $700 and it being 95% of the meter that the 34461A is, but that being said if you can swing it go for the Keysight.

author: pmcouto
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 02:04:09 pm
content: Nour,In your original post you mention a limit of 1,000 USD.Considering this price limit, we’re talking about a professional 6 1/2 digit bench meter, from a reputable Test & Measurement manufacturer.BK Precision 5492B is not playing on this league.Neither is Keithley 2100 - As already mentioned, this is a rebranded Picotest meter and cannot be compared with “real” Keithley products, both in quality and performance.As you mention you want to buy anewmeter, I would strongly suggest you consider Keysight 34461A; This a professional precision instrument that will surely serve you well for many years.Unless you start doing some serious very high precision work, the 34461A is all you need.However, If you ever need a better meter, there are some options available such as:-Keysight 34470A-Keithley DMM7510-The venerable Keysight 3458AOf course, these meters cost a lot more...

author: ECEdesign
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 05:51:44 pm
content: What about the Fluke 8808A? Is there a reason people gravitate towards Keysight for bench meters?

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 12:29:47 am
content: Some of the reasons have been, popularity, lots of internet help, in the past hp-a-ks manuals, not sure that the modern stuff is so user repairable. Too many ASICs, no schematics!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 12:35:45 am
content: Quote from: bdivi on November 19, 2015, 01:02:14 pmTry and find a bench DMM which does 20A! Fast continuity isn't also something you should take for granted in any DMM. The OP did not state any accuracy specifications and since the VC8145 offers/combines several features not found in many bench top DMMs it definitely is a good one to consider even if money is not a problem (just buy 2 or 3).

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 12:43:11 am
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on November 18, 2015, 11:03:37 pmThirding.The thing with a used piece of gear that is within cal, has higher measurement confidence than a new meter out of the box. A new meter does not have the history a new one does. It does not have all of the long-term-drift components worked out of it.That being said, at $1k, you're right in the middle between the more classical hobby space, and the professional space. Personally I'd hold out a bit longer and get a Keygilent/Agisight or a Fluke (I'm biased to the Fluke 8846A).

author: nour
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 02:37:52 am
content: thanks for all the people how answered or added any valueI think I will hold a little bit and dig further until I am confidant enough to buy somethingI have shifted my choice to keysight instruments but not yet at specific model (because of the higher price range)other people telling me the same thing about keysightanyway thanks

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 03:14:23 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 18, 2015, 10:58:08 pm+1OPIf you want new as you statedIf you want spend max ~1k$If you want good quality and from company with real long time good reputationI will recommend 34461AIf I buy meter, and if I need high quality, I will perhaps not buy new one at at all... there is lot of extremely good used meters available but then need really exacly know what is doing and what are good and what are not...

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 06:45:42 am
content: +1 re the 34461 ; hooked up to its much older bigger brother 3458 (and older / out of calibration 34401), remember accuracy is +/- 1 on the last digit

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 07:09:14 am
content: Why has no one mentioned the Agilent 34460A which is 6 1/2 digit and $945?http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2269458-pn-34460A/digital-multimeter-6-digit-basic-truevolt-dmm?cc=US&lc=engLatest technology and very nice display. Dave has reviewed it (34461A version which is a very close meter, it is a little faster, has a better guaranteed YOY drift, and adds rear inputs and LXI)34461A ($1,097) is slightly over OP's budget. If he doesn't need LXI and the rear panel he can keep it under a grand with the 34460A. But look at the specs of both meters, see below.http://www.mrtestequipment.com/getfile.php?s=Agilent+34450%2C+34460A%2C34461A+Digital+Multimeter+Product+Fact+Sheet.pdf

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 07:46:13 am
content: Quote from: PedroDaGr8 on November 18, 2015, 08:25:43 pmI believe the discontinue date for this is 12/31/16. Keysight is making them available, I think, for customers who would have trouble changing over for one reason or another. Still, I think current stock is going cheap because most of the customers out there want the new model.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 09:56:44 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 20, 2015, 12:35:45 amThe Keithley 179A-20 does 20A for 1 minute, not a measly 15 seconds. 75$ on eBay. An external shunt is a much better idea, especially if your fuse is only rated for 13A.Continuity is not latched, it can't display voltage and current at the same time, doesn't do 4 wire resistance measurements and is very limited on current resolution (1uA). Weirdly, AC voltage can only be measured accurately between 10% and 75% of any range. Capacitance measurement is useless (10pF~100uF) at .5%+50! 4 readings per second only, with no filtering available. No USB, no external triggering and no internal memory.Give the Vici a wide berth and spend your shekels on something a bit more professional.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 12:06:20 pm
content: Sorry but that old crap Keithley doesn't match up! No capacitance measurements, no dual display (voltage + frequency for example), temperature, continuity?? And if you would have read the specs of the VC8145 more carefully you'll see it is very accurate for RMS measurements up to high frequencies which makes the VC8145 suitable for audio work. Again this is a rather unique feature especially given it's price. I have compared lots of new and used DMMs in the 4.5 digit range and the VC8145 just comes out on top.You must not confuse an instrument which can do a few types of measurements very accurate versus an instrument which does a lot of things very well.

author: cyr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 12:40:42 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 20, 2015, 12:06:20 pmVery valid point, the question is why does the OP want a bench meter? Most often a bench DMM means high precision, high speed, connectivity for automation etc. The VC8145 sounds more like a typical handheld DMM in a bench-style case - which is fine if that's what you want, but very different.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 01:46:09 pm
content: Quote from: cyr on November 20, 2015, 12:40:42 pmIMHO that is a big misconception. There are and have been loads of bench DMMs with similar specs to a typical handheld DMM. The difference between a bench DMM and handheld is that you can put a bench DMM in a stack of equipment and power it from mains instead of batteries.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 06:01:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 20, 2015, 12:06:20 pmLOL, someone who owns a Vici DMM calling a Keithley meter a piece of crap! That old meter has better voltage accuracy, higher AC bandwidth and a higher 10nA resolution than your 'modern' light box.Of course, as an only meter, it wouldn't cut the mustard as a jack of all trades and I never suggested otherwise. But then yourself suggested a uCurrent box to supplement the Vici shortcomings.A reliable 20kHz true RMS voltage bandwidth is nothing unusual. Plenty of cheap meters have the feature, including multiple data displays.You claim the meter has unusual features but all I notice is that it is missing:4 wire resistance measurementlatched continuityuseful capacitance range and accuracynA resolutionhigh DC accuracyfast acquisition and filteringThe old adage rings true: You get what you paid for. If you're on a tight budget and need a mains powered stackable box, fine, otherwise you'd be better off with a handheld DMM of similar value.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 06:32:14 pm
content: Show me multimeters which do 20kHz AC (RMS) with a better than 1% accuracy on all ranges up to 20KHz for less than $160! Even your Keithley 179 can't do that! And dare I note the capacitance range on the Keysight 34465A is the same as the VC8145? So what is a useful capacitance range? The Keithley 179 can't even do capacitance to start with. And neither can it do continuity. Where is the Multi from DMM in the Keithley? I have a similar DMM like the Keithley 179 from HP and it has sitting on a shelve since I got a second VC8145.4 wire resistance may be nice and so does a larger capacitance range but that is LCR meter territory. High DC accuracy and nA resolution are fine but also in a different price class. And do you really need extremely high accuracy for general purpose work? Most components on a board aren't better than 1% so all those extra digits are just a waste. And what are you looking at exactly? By the time you want to measure nA you'll also want to use different (gold plated) wiring due to all kinds of metalurgical effects. A DMM may not even be the right tool. Fast acquistion could be nice for data logging but for just looking at a display 4 updates per second is more than enough. Filtering only helps if your measurement environment is very noisy (there are other ways to deal with that as well) however averaging/filtering won't cancel the error from a reference which is off by X ppm.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 07:06:17 pm
content: QuoteI think that's rather the point, this thread is about High precision, DMMs in the $1000 range. High accuracies are achievable and fully specified to 100kHz or even 1MHz.Edit: 1% is not high precision in this context.Edit, Edit: The VC8145 AC current isn't actually specified to more than 5kHz... It's AC voltage range IS specified 50Hz - 20kHZ but is 5%+50 Digits <75% range and a whopping 8% + 50 Digits >75% range and a voltage burden of 800mVSorry, that should have been 0.8%+50 Digits <75% range, the 5% was to 50kHz, the 8% >75% range to 20kHz still stands though.The point about current ranges is rather moot for all bench DMMs, cheap VC8145s or expensive Keysights, Flukes etc. They all have voltage burdens that render them pretty much a joke for any form of precision measurement. To do accurate current measurement requires accurate external shunts which make use of the high inherent voltage sensitivity and resolution of the meter.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 07:08:08 pm
content: nctnico, a bench meter should support SCPI so it can interact with other instruments and your PC. It must also support re-calibration, as a new meter will drift from its factory specs. The vici has a PC connectivity of sorts, but is it one way (read only) or can its functions be programmed? If so at least a SCPI driver could be made for it. What provision is there for calibration/adjustment (out of box hopefully)?But given OP's budget then I would go for a used Keithley 2000 or 2015 which you can get for $300 and then a brand new SDG3055 which seems to have its bugs being worked out. Best of both worlds. I rule out the Rigol DM3000's as Rigol don't support them, no firmware updates to speak of in years. Old design that I think Rigol has abandoned.

author: MadTux
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 08:08:54 pm
content: OP doesn't have a clue, no idea what he really wants and much too much money.20A on any meter is a joke. Any Pro measures current in circuit by inserting a shunt. Any good DVM has math functions and 4 wire resistance measurement. Which makes current measurement easy and very accurate by using a cheap low tempco shunt. Furthermore, no fancy fuses are required. That also makes the DVM very resistant to abuse, because it can't sink any current.Sure, you can spend 1k$ for some expensive crap. Or handheld scopemeters.... But certain HP and Keithley bench meters are dirt cheap now and offer far more accuracy.BTW, I don't hate hand meters per se. They are useful if I need to be mobile and no accuracy is required. And I don't want to worry about destroying them. Since they are basically all the same, I buy the cheapest so I don't have to be sad, when I destroy them.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 08:38:45 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on November 20, 2015, 07:08:08 pmWhy should a bench meter suddenly be connected to a PC? IMHO that is another misconception about bench DMMs. If you need test equipment for automated measurements then you should buy equipment which allows that. Personally I have no use to connect a DMM to a PC. A bench DMM is a DMM which can be stacked, doesn't need batteries and doesn't auto-shutdown. That's it. Everything else are just extra features but not necessarily ones defining what is a bench DMM.Anyway: The VC8145 has isolated RS232 PC connectivity and someone has already made a protocol implementation and by the looks of it the VC8145 can be read and controlled remotely. There are some trimmers and potmeters inside so I guess it is possible to adjust it. It depends very much on which reference they used whether it will actually need any adjusting ever. Given it's accuracy specs it is very likely they just used a reference which is guaranteed to stay within the specs of the meter.@Gyro: if you go through the specs of loads of DMMs you'll find that having an AC (RMS) accuracy better than 1% over a wide frequency range is very rare in the low end to medium range DMMs spectrum. This isn't strange because doing RMS right is difficult and you'll need to make a tradeoff to do it cheap. The VC8145 uses a true-RMS converter chip which has a wide frequency range but limitations on signal amplitude. Another option is to use a filtering circuit but that has the disadvantage of allowing only a very limited frequency range (usually between 50Hz and 60Hz for mains). The higher end DMMs use sampling at the expense of more complex and expensive circuitry but even then the accuracy is not stellar.@madtux: having a 20A range on a >4.5 digit meter is very handy and I'll explain why. There will be enough digits to give an indication in the milli-amp range while you don't have to worry about blowing the fuse in the meter even when drawing several amps. Many bench DMMs only go to 4A which just isn't enough. Having a 20A range gives a lot of room to play with so when there is a need to measure higher currents you have the solution sitting on your bench.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 09:01:53 pm
content: QuoteNo argument there at all, many low cost DMMs have similar specs - my point is that it is basically a low cost handheld DMM in a bench case. It is not in the same accuracy league as the Kesysights, etc. bench models.True RMS conversion just costs money to do right, it is mature technology. I have a 40 year old Datron bench meter that easily beats the VC8145 by more than an order of magnitude and over a 100kHz bandwidth.Again the VC8145 is what it is, it has lots of bells and whistles, it just doesn't compare with the professional bench models when it comes to accuracy when comparing in the <$1000 class.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 11:07:47 pm
content: Although 0.8%+50 up to 20kHz may sound mildly impressive, it is only true from 10% up to 75% of all ranges. Above that level, the RMS converter shoots up to 8%+50. A complete disaster, as one ends up with huge gaps in the RMS voltage accuracy.The similar priced UT71 manages 1.5%+30 up to 10kHz, without restrictions on range values above 10%.

author: JoeB83
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2015, 05:22:11 am
content: I may catch hell for this, but I'll say it anyway: take a look at the Keysight 34450A. I have a 34450A as well as a 34410A, and while I do prefer the 34410 and trust it's measurements more than the 34450, the 34450 is still a very good bench DMM and may be worth taking a look at. It is substantially less expensive than many or most of the offerings from Keysight/Agilent, Keithley, Fluke, and so forth.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2015, 05:32:09 am
content: Quote from: JoeB83 on November 21, 2015, 05:22:11 amI am reasonably pleased with my 34450A but only because I got it insanely cheap. At the new price I don't know if I'd recommend it, kick in the extra funds to get the 34460A - I know I'd happily pay the difference to upgrade.

author: nour
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 06:25:36 am
content: Quote from: MadTux on November 20, 2015, 08:08:54 pmI think I have already commented on such a joke before somewheremay be I don't have such a huge amount of experience that someone in this forum haveor may by I never have a very expensive instrument beforebut that doesn't mean I don't know about what I need or don't have a clue !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You don't know me nor know what I am doing so please stop saying such wrong phrases about me.about what I need I can quote it from here:Quote from: Gyro on November 20, 2015, 07:06:17 pmand who the hell have told you or even mentioned that I have "too much money"sorry man but I just have a very limited budget and I only want 3 instruments to buy for now one of them is a good bench-top multi-meter with high accuracy and precisionplease stop spreading wrong stuff about me

author: nour
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 06:53:09 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 20, 2015, 08:38:45 pmbecause this is a very handy feature specially when all of your instruments support such a feature simply because you can collect data from all of them at the same time when you are doing some sort of long term measurement and you can write a code to display the measurement in a relationship graph or something similar