HP 1980B - Mother goose of analog scopes in terms of innovation - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 12:32:11 am
content: The HP 1980B Oscilloscope Measurement System was way ahead of its time back in the eighties.It can be seen as the mother goose of analog scopes in terms of innovation!The September 1982 issue of the Hewlett-Packard Journal was entirely dedicated to the HP 1980B system:http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1982-09.pdfThis issue of the Hewlett-Packard Journal is a must read! They cover all design phases involved in building this scope.It provides a lot of information about the respective signal stages and the integrated computer control.The build quality is amazing! Look at how many boards, and the number of parts!You can not compare this at all with the single SMD boards in modern scopes today.It's unfortunate that the industry dropped the modular board approach to achieve further cost reduction.Imagine they would produce this new today. Given that the parts are now a lot cheaper, it might be possible to build it at an affordable price. If the quality is 10x better than a small bench scope, people might be open to compromise on bench space.Somebody out here who has such a unit? Does it contain a lot of unobtainium parts or does it only use COTS parts?

author: Vgkid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 12:34:14 am
content: Your 7075 is a more interesting beast.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 01:09:49 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on August 08, 2015, 12:32:11 amWhy, who would want to?QuoteI have the polar opposite view.QuoteYeah, right.

author: wn1fju
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 01:49:32 am
content: You asked: "Does it contain a lot of unobtainium parts or does it only use COTS parts?"Look no further than the top center of your picture (the big metal gray square). That is one of the HP hybrid chips that is definitely unobtainium. But not to worry, there are several more on the underside of the unit! And they make the connections to the board using elastomerics which over time generally fail. Again, not to worry, because even if you get the hybrids connected OK, there are plenty of elastomeric connectors in the front panel that also will fail.While I'm sure it was a wonder in 1980, I find my HP 1980B to be a bit cumbersome to use. The single knob controls all parameters so every change requires a front panel button press followed by a knob turn. HP repeated this scheme in a lot of early scopes like the 54111/2. Give me dedicated V/div, timebase, trigger knobs any day.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:12:01 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on August 08, 2015, 12:32:11 amThe 1980B was pretty advanced for its day, that's true. We had a few of them in our labs at that time.QuoteNot really. It *was* a very sophisticated scope, with a lot of technology going in. But the digital controls and the onscreen information aside it wasn't a particularly outstanding performer, and mostly only really interesting if you wanted to do semi-automatized measurements.In terms of analog scopes, HP gear has almost always been pretty average compared what Tek offered, and I doubt anyone has pushed the technology of analog scope technology as Tek.QuoteActually, the build quality wasn't that great, and the 1980B was one of the most unreliable scopes ever made by HP.QuoteIt hasn't. But when only a handful components are involved as it's the case with modern entry level scopes splitting them up into multiple modules would be pretty silly, especially since modularization also introduces several additional potential points of failure.But lots of more complex kit is modular, even today.QuoteIf they made that today they probably would go bankrupt, because it would be overly expensive for a mediocre scope with limited quality, and as said before the quality wasn't all that great either.I'm not a great fan of Chinese brands like Rigol or Siglent but I'm pretty sure a modern Rigol or Siglent scope will be much more reliable than the 1980B ever was.QuoteAs wn1fju said it's pretty much full of unobtainium and brittle connections.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:21:38 pm
content: Quote from: wn1fju on August 08, 2015, 01:49:32 amThey also had the single knob in the older variants of the 54500 Series:I had a 54510A at that time. Frankly, I loved the single knob plus numerical input of these scopes, and still miss them. For me it was much quicker to setup one of these than on a scope with separate knobs, as I could just type in the parameter directly (and most things only needed a few steps on the knob).But maybe I'm just weird.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:40:05 pm
content: Here's mine demonstrated:You do get used to the single knob to some degree, but just like having muxed vertical controls, quite common today, having modal controls interferes with your workflow. The knob also operates in a fine/vernier setting which seems to be default all too often.I used to yearn after the 1980B scope 30 odd years ago, it was my nerd porn of the day, so I just had to have one... once they were rather less than a couple of years' salary!About ten years or so ago, I was offered one of those 54500 scopes to work on a job at ESA. Took me quite some time to get my head around it, and we were under some significant time pressure with a launch date looming and the spacecraft was due to be shipped to the launch facility Russia the next week. Never have I more wanted a good old CRO!

author: woodchips
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:08:35 pm
content: What an awful scope!I have two, and failed to get anything meaningful from them. I have just bought a set of manuals for it, and even reading them they are not straightforward.If you want to buy them, with all the manuals then I am only too happy to sell, give me a 7000 series anyday.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:34:04 pm
content: Quote from: woodchips on August 08, 2015, 07:08:35 pmI didn't have much problem finding my way around it except for the digitising and cursor part which is hardly conducive to rapid operation. Perhaps it's because I've been brought up with a lot of different scopes over the years, I don't know.The manuals though are useless for learning how to use the scope. They are more of a reference manual, concentrating on the GPIB programming aspects, without any example set ups.QuoteLike this?

author: woodchips
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2016, 09:22:13 am
content: Having just spent a day or so with these scopes I still agree, what awful scopes.Off to the scrappy with them! Not worth the storage space they take up.

author: andy2000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2016, 09:52:58 am
content: I have one. It's interesting, and has been reliable since I cleaned all off the connections on the hybrids and front panel. The single knob interface is a little cumbersome, but having a dedicated button for every control is better than having to search through menus for everything. My main complaint is that the power supply fan is about as loud as a hair dryer of full. Also, the on screen readout causes noticeable gaps in the trace.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2016, 11:49:28 pm
content: I love the look of that thing, makes me want to watch original Battlestar Galactica again. Lights! Things that flash!...but, for me, the UFO of all scopes that brought the big change was the Tektronix 567. Observe!Is this not glorious for 1962? Green Onions just came out in 1962!(OK, that 3T2 is a bit of a cheat, that didn't exist in 1962...)

author: woodchips
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2016, 10:37:14 am
content: Ah, you have explained the gaps in the trace, due to the tect updating! Wouldn't have guessed that, but does confirm what an awful scope.One down, other to be scrapped, there is a lot of gold flashed boards inside though, quite made my day!Does anyone know how the voltage sensitivity is changed on modern scopes rather then the solenoid method on the 1980? Good idea I suppose, but the weight! Modern chips can switch upto a certain input frequeny, which is?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2016, 09:52:28 pm
content: Quote from: woodchips on August 30, 2016, 10:37:14 amFor the high impedance input attenuators, mechanical switching is usually still used but only 1 or 2 stages are needed. The low impedance attenuators after the input buffer are much easier to switch electronically and lots of cheap DSOs lop bits off of the ADC in one way or another for additional ranges.Check out chapter 7, Signal Conditioning in Oscilloscopes and the Spirit of Invention, in "The Art and Science of Analog Circuit Design".

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2016, 10:00:49 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on August 08, 2015, 12:32:11 amPersonally I love the way it looks.. it's so different from most other scopes.