Keysight New instruments  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: msuthar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2021, 01:59:57 pm
content: At this link some new instruments shown from Keysighthttps://www.keysightbenchchallenge.com/

author: balage
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2021, 09:50:52 pm
content: For me it seems these are budget instrument aiming the educational market.The DMM look ugly for me. I prefer the conventional bench DMM.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2021, 10:07:05 pm
content: Budget perhaps, but its bringing down some of the nice technology to cheaper price points.Care of Mouser putting up some SKUs:EDU33210 SeriesEDU33212A Waveform generator, 20 MHz, 2-channelShould be interesting to see whats "left out" from the 335xx series, the non-rackmount form factor would already be a turn off for some uses.EDU36311A 6 V, 5 A and 2 x 30 V, 1 A, 90 W: LAN, USBNot sure on the multimeter EDU344??A

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2021, 10:57:33 pm
content: QuoteSo that's about 700 dollars per instrument.I like the DMM, probably cheaper than the 34460A.The scope looks like a generic 1000 series scope.The function generator: It is damn time they come up with something new, their lineup is outdated and overpriced.DC power supply: Looks nice, has USB probably ethernet, 3 outputs. Where is the ground?Honestly, they should sell these in a discounted package deals, throw in some extra bandwidth with the scope and they would get a ton of orders. Nowadays everyone I know seems to work partially from home, and having basic instruments at home is not given.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2021, 12:04:21 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 20, 2021, 10:57:33 pmIt is to the left of the outputs - colored green as expected.I like the big screens but wow do they suck up bench space, they don't seem practical at all to me other than the scope.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2021, 12:15:01 am
content: Quote from: TheSteve on February 21, 2021, 12:04:21 amSame here. The DMM is grossly oversized and except for the PSU the cases aren't really stackable. The function generator is a grey area. I have a similar sized waveform generator. This big screen is great for operating it (including more complicated operations like waveform editing) but being un-stackable is definitely a down side. If the big screen on the Keysight generator is a touchscreen and it has some decent arbitrary waveform editing / managing abilities then the large size can be useful.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2021, 12:21:01 am
content: One hundred years ago Henry Ford said you could have his products in any color you liked as long as it was black.My, how little some things have changed.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2021, 04:53:23 am
content: Well, at least the plastic will not yellow with time

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2021, 05:23:06 am
content: Quote from: Bud on February 21, 2021, 04:53:23 amSmoking in lab room or where ever are test instruments is highly forbidden. And main reason is not this cosmetics. Even in these old time years when I smoke I did not do it any single time in any kind of lab room or room where is test and measurements instruments. Never.Of course there is also some other reasons specially in some plastics they mysteriously go bit yellowish, even if they are isolated inside cleaned air cabin. Why it happen, I do not know.Black T&M instruments can not enter in my house. If they try, I have heavy hammer. For blue leds I have small hammer.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2021, 06:22:25 am
content: Quote from: Bud on February 21, 2021, 04:53:23 amYellowing if it happens is far less important than plastic embrittlement with age. Even if black unless UV stabilisers have been added degradation can still occur.

author: jmw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 12:50:27 am
content: Four instruments for that contest, and four boxes delivered to Dave's office ... hmm.https://twitter.com/eevblog/status/1363633105488080898

author: wolfy007
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 01:17:49 am
content: Looks like cost cutting by using common casing/molds between the meter, scope and sig-gen perhaps, even the front face of the power supply...Budget range?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 01:38:52 am
content: Quote from: wolfy007 on February 22, 2021, 01:17:49 amIt is probably just "design"? - make the instruments look part of a family, make customers want to collect them all...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 01:48:17 am
content: Matching underwear. Every test gear collectors dream.Interested in the DMM if it’s 6.5 digits or better and has data capture stuff.

author: JDubU
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 03:51:14 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 22, 2021, 01:48:17 amAbove photo shows only 5.5 digits on the display.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 04:15:33 am
content: Quote from: jmw on February 22, 2021, 12:50:27 amWell I guess the cat's out of the bag.Just set them up on my bench.The PSU looks nice, has a nice sparkly powder coated case and a top carry strap - old school.The scope is nothing new.The new FG reminds me of the Rigol FG, but still not the best form factor, I never likes the Rigol one for that.The meter is, well, not at all suited to normal lab use in terms of form factor obviosuly. I get that it's aimed at education where you might have one of these siting on it's own on a student desk, but otherwiseWith the probes just sitting on the bench in DCV mode it just sits there annoyingly autoraning continuously, presumably picking up the 50Hz, that would drive me absoutely nuts.Both the PSU and FG have an annoying dimming screen saver mode by default.Yes you can stack them that like for photos, but you can't use them like that, just the usual tilting feet. Although any one of them does work on top of the PSU ok-ish.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 04:27:58 am
content: Quote from: wolfy007 on February 22, 2021, 01:17:49 amI doubt it, you'd need new molds anyway for the different cutouts. I think it's a marketing thing.Yes, it's a new budget range.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 04:33:46 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 22, 2021, 04:15:33 amDoes it have a high-impedance input by default?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 05:36:39 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 22, 2021, 04:33:46 amNope, 10M.On High-Z it does the usual charge up/down thing but does also annoying autorange but with bonus relay switching!Just shot a quick video on that, but not sure if Keysight would want me releasing that yet.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 05:45:22 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 22, 2021, 05:36:39 amPerhaps they are trying to emulate the Fluke 8846A...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 05:53:24 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 22, 2021, 05:36:39 amOh c'mon Dave, when have you ever given a rats arse about what a manufacture might think of your videos.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 06:22:11 am
content: Guess he means the models may have not been officially announced yet.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 06:47:23 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 22, 2021, 05:53:24 amGiving a rats arse or not he is still likely under an embargo date that he had to agree to in order to get his hands on these unreleased units. Typical marketing to work up to a big grand release date where the marketing push happens and the reviews from people like Dave go up.Not really to exited about it personally but i really like the look of that PSU...even if i don't need yet another PSU.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 07:09:18 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 22, 2021, 05:53:24 amI don't care what they think of what I say in a video, but it's not released yet, and it would kinda be a dick move to release a detailed video showing an unreleased device when they sent it to me in good faith with a public release date. You are a dealer and get pre-release products, do you release info early?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 07:58:52 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 22, 2021, 07:09:18 amRarely only for beta testing when we are bound by an NDA.QuoteOf course, do you not read the forum ?When info is on websites irrespective of language it's in the public domain and hence fair game.Anyways, no need to play the virtuous here Dave as you have been sent pre-release products to review.

author: ResistorRob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 11:18:55 am
content: I'm the outlier. I was never a big fan of the aesthetics of Keysight bench gear in the past. However I think they are a quality manufacturer. I have a HUGE workbench so space isn't as limited for me, so I love the oversized multimeter. If it's around $700 as someone mentioned then that sexy beast will end up in my collection. That would make my first Keysight purchase ever because they usually out of my hobbyist budget, so I'm typically looking at Siglent, Rigol, GW Instek, etc. price range.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 11:23:44 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 22, 2021, 07:58:52 amYou are asking me to show close up video of an unreleased product before the launch date where the only thing that currently exists is a single low res photo. Would you do this if you were in my position?QuoteSo not being a dick is now playing "virtuous" huh?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 11:26:33 am
content: Quote from: ResistorRob on February 22, 2021, 11:18:55 amThey already have a 5.5 digit meter for $929, so I don't think $700 for education traget meter is out of the question.No manual in the bos so I don't know the specs yet.EDIT: I just realised the spec is likely to be idenitcal the existing 5.5 digit Keysight meter.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 11:44:49 am
content: After thinking of this for some time, I think one of the best decision would be to bundle it with the Benchvue software.If you have the license for all 4 of these instruments, no subscription, that would be just awesome.Patiently awaiting the video.

author: balage
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 12:27:10 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 22, 2021, 11:44:49 amYeah, that's it! With BenchVue it would be a nice bundle!The big screen of the PSU makes it able to show nice current/power diagrams. Eagerly waiting for the details.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 12:56:08 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 22, 2021, 07:58:52 amI guess you never heard of a 'news embargo':https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_embargoSure Dave can show a video in advance but he'll likely never get Keysight equipment again after that and certainly not before the release date. In the end that serves nobody. Chances are the firmware needs an update as well so a premature video may even be outdated within days.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 06:03:38 pm
content: Quote from: msuthar on February 20, 2021, 01:59:57 pmThat picture is down right pornographic! I want that DVM so bad. I do hope that it will arrive at a reasonable cost.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 06:13:56 pm
content: Quote from: TheSteve on February 21, 2021, 12:04:21 amI have mixed feelings about meter size. The sad reality is that as I get older and the eyes are not what they use to be large devices and screens have a real appeal. I haven't looked too closely at these products yet but if the text on the front panels is large enough and sharp enough to be better than some of HP's old stuff then they might be making me very happy.If I had my choice I would have went with a more vertical design for each instrument. This would have given us large display in a more compact bench arrangement. Beyond all of that I still do a lot of field work so that can't be dismissed.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 06:37:32 pm
content: Budget range or not, it make sense to carefully consider your mechanical designs for use across products. Frankly HPAK has never been really good at this, but with a little team work they should be able to reuse back shell and even fronts across a variety of instruments. Effectively you can spread the cost of one mold base across several instruments. The mold base might need a few interchangeable inserts to pull it off but still it is a huge advantage over building a new mold for every instrument.As for the meter I haven't seen the specs yet so I can only comment on the the mechanical aspects seen in the image. For me the meter has some real advantages due to its form factor and frankly this is when I would be away from the bench. If you are doing field calibration work simply finding space for a meter can be a challenge. Keysights more conventional meters can have issues is you try to use them standing on end or sitting on top of a tool. Stackability is only of use if the hardware is from similar manufactures, often you just get slideability. The narrow and high design should offer more options with respect to meter placement in the field. Beyond all of that large displays even for a multimeter are just a delight.Quote from: wolfy007 on February 22, 2021, 01:17:49 amMaybe! Honestly I don't care about what range it is, I just want to see the specs. Either the performance is there or it isn't.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 07:56:20 pm
content: For educatgional use there is still some market for meters with a really large dispaly, so it can be read from a distance. So It may be nice if they have a mode to show 3 1/2 digits using the full screen for maximum readability in a class-room.The form factor is odd for a bench DMM, but there are cases when less depth is a big plus. There are more instruments that can profit from a rather large screen and front panel area, but no longer need the large volume. So we may see more instruments in that shape. Simple stacking may not work well, but maybe with a suiteable shelf.

author: Doddy883
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 08:31:42 pm
content: I like the form factor. Ideal for my bench, and I'll be in the market for a bench DMM soon. PSU would do a job for me too as I'd like a programmable one now. I guess its down to specs and price, i'll keep an eye on the channel

author: balage
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 08:32:26 pm
content: What I am afraid of is that there may be a delay to become them on stock. Actually all the Keysight intruments are on sortage at Farnell now.

author: Ghislain
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 08:38:41 pm
content: ^^^Like this one for examplehttps://www.meilhaus.de/en/elneos-five-dmm.htm

author: xmo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 09:23:15 pm
content: I bought the little scope. I am quite pleased with it.Here it is helping me understand FM IBOC

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 09:59:14 pm
content: Quote from: wizard69 on February 22, 2021, 06:37:32 pmAlthough I have not had this confirmed, it should be indenital to this spec, or certainly no worse:https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/7018-03637/data-sheets/5991-1133.pdf

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 10:02:06 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 22, 2021, 11:44:49 amThe existing 5.5 digit 34450A comes with the BenchVue software, so I'd expect the same here too.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 10:16:25 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on February 22, 2021, 07:56:20 pmIt only feels odd, because the 6.5+ DMMs are all designed to be rack mountable. So they all have 3U height and newer models have half rack size. I remember that scopes were designed to be rack mounted. Then around the 90s their design changed into desktop units, and nobody wants those old huge units anymore.At first, I wasn't fan of the LCD used on the 34465A, the old 34410A was easier to read. But then I found the utility of the statistics, histogram and other functions. Getting a bigger screen would probably unlock more possibilities.Quote from: EEVblog on February 22, 2021, 09:59:14 pmIf the instrument is anything like the other DMMs, there should be a help menu. As I remember, it could show a QR code where you can download the service manual, if the link is already activated.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 10:28:23 pm
content: Quote from: Ghislain on February 22, 2021, 08:38:41 pmThat is some horrifying pretentious crap....Datasheet it 50 pages of synergies and designer bullshit and all the crapwords, and then few lines of specifications : 2 kHz AC bandwidth, 5 ¾ digit, display range 40.000 points, meaning it is 4.5 digit meter but they straight up lie it is more than 5.5...And it costs more than Keithley 6500 and Keysight 34460A...

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 10:29:59 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 22, 2021, 10:02:06 pmThe Benchvue yes. The DMM part requires a separate license, that is called "Keysight BV0001B Digital Multimeter Control & Automation Software Application". It is sold at 330 EUR including Tax.Function gen is another 330 EURPower supply is another 330 EUROscilloscope another 330 EURAnd these are node locked licenses. Example:https://nl.rs-online.com/web/p/bench-power-supply-source-accessories/1362935/I get that for a high end workbench for a test lab this is peanuts. For low end instruments, like we have here, the price/value is terrible.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 10:55:45 pm
content: Yuck. I still remember the days when I paid for hardware not software

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 11:36:50 pm
content: Just last week, I downloaded the software for the Agilent 65422D scope from the Keysight web site - for free.Obviously that's what Keysight ought to do with anything less than mid range instruments, just to get their software out there and get people addicted!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 01:59:44 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 22, 2021, 10:29:59 pmAh, the datasheet has a sneaky asterix

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 02:21:04 am
content: JUst shot another quick video to show an issue on the manual ranging as well. With the input probes just sitting there on my bench, I get overloading on the manual 1V range, and it alternates between overload and some random voltage, this is with fixed 10M input.Also, I didn't realise last time that I had the ground probe in the wrong jack, it was in the sense jack. Guess they neede more visual differentiation there.Anyway, in fast sampling mode I get the autorange issue cying the range relay at 5+ times per second, it makes a hell of a racket, again at 10M input.I think they still have a few issues to iron out...

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 02:28:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 23, 2021, 01:59:44 am"Now included"If you get a chance when you are trying out the scope, could you test its ability to recover from input amplifier overdrive? I had this issue recently that was apparent on one (newer) scope and not with any of my older scopes. I don't have access to any newer, name-brand low-end scopes. I posted about the issue here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-anomaly-on-what-should-be-a-simple-task/msg3450362/#msg3450362and if that's too much reading, jump down to:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-anomaly-on-what-should-be-a-simple-task/msg3451402/#msg3451402TLDR version: 5Vp-p1kHz square wave with a 10kHz 100mV pulse, expand the vertical to see the pulse--which puts the larger 5V level way off the top of the screen. If the overdrive recovery is very slow, the pulse will be a mess.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 02:32:52 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 23, 2021, 02:28:20 amThe scope is not new, it's already been out a long time. Guess they sent it just to "complete the set" they are obviously looking to bundle together as an educational package.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 02:57:03 am
content: People inside Keysight are furiously watching it seems!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 03:14:58 am
content: Sadly it doesn't look like the new meter has any of the cool trendplotting stuff in the 34465 doesIt does data logging, but I can't even display it on the screenHeck I can't even figure out how to save it to USB...On the plus side, you can display voltage and current at the same time.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 03:29:31 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 23, 2021, 02:57:03 am34450A has been around several years? I think the developers are rushed and after the product release, it's not a priority to fix anything nor is there any budget to do this because the project is "finished". The main reason I shy away from purchasing Keysight is they are far too lean on F/W maintenance.34450A Firmware Update(Revision: 01.03-01.01) Release Date 2019-03-18At least it has no cooling fan, just annoying leading zeros not blanked.The new stuff, cooling vent on the side so stacking them seems to block that?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 03:46:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 23, 2021, 02:57:03 amDaniel and Sim (the new Charles) have already been here a few hours back checking on predeedings.Quote from: EEVblog on February 23, 2021, 02:21:04 amAnd with the leads shorted ?

author: balage
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 07:22:17 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 23, 2021, 03:14:58 amNo way that the big screen cannot plot the logged samples!Isn't it capable for sure?!Maybe it is how KS wants to sell BenchVue; "you need plots? buy the PC software"

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 07:50:10 am
content: Quote from: balage on February 23, 2021, 07:22:17 amAh, found it, you can display the log, but it's not full screen, it's not even the screen width, data table underneath.No ability that I can find to get a live view graph.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 07:56:25 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 23, 2021, 03:46:32 amShorted it's fine.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 08:07:57 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on February 23, 2021, 03:29:31 amI don't know if they added any new features but there have been 17 firmware releases for the 34450A so it seems they do have an interest in maintaining the firmware and fixing bugs.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 10:53:30 am
content: Quote from: wizard69 on February 22, 2021, 06:13:56 pmLarge screen isn't a garantee of large letters or high contrast.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 03:14:14 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on February 22, 2021, 07:56:20 pmI have the Rigol DP831 and it's so deep that it doesn't fit on my bench. I have to set it up sideways. Wider/taller would work well. (And I should've waited for the GW Instek supply I actually wanted to come back into stock, but that's a separate issue.)

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 04:24:49 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 23, 2021, 03:14:58 amDoes it have an ethernet hole in it? Mostly interested in LXI stuff here.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 04:57:48 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on February 23, 2021, 03:14:14 pmAnother way to look at it is, "My bench is so short that a Rigol DP831 won't fit on it"!

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 05:34:16 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on February 23, 2021, 03:14:14 pmI have a Rigol DP832 and it is the perfect size. Fits like a glove among all of its half-rack width DMM buddies on top. Depth is also similar to all the other ones that I call "shallow depth rack size" of about 40cm. The shelf dimensions were designed with this common instrument size in mind.The ones that i call "deep rack size" of 60cm is what is common for the big boatanchor test gear. I personally keep those in a big server rack instead. But that dimension range is a dieing breed, mostly used by old gear apart from things that are not as easy to shrink down like giant rack mount PSUs and similar. So id say the before mentioned 40cm deep half-rack wide box is the new standard test gear size.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 07:31:29 pm
content: Quote from: TheSteve on February 23, 2021, 08:07:57 amThe 'ol 34450A last F/W release was 2019-03-18, how is that current. It's not the number of bugs fixed, although that does say something for the S/W dev and testing process, but just supporting existing products. Let me know if this is an unrealistic expectation.Digital camera manufacturers, some maintain their firmware for years even adding new features, while other manufacturers don't do much past the product's release.With me, Keysight will not live down the 34461A initial firmware release where the continuity beeper did not work reliably. For that to sneak through testing was a sad moment for me. There were a lot of bugs corrected over the years something I hate running into in a piece of test equipment. Two years to fixmemory leaks.Sorry but I have trouble getting excited about their new product releases, after banging my head with various bugs, pleading with KS to fix them and showing it's not "user error", then dying of old age waiting for the update.I hope they fixed the cooling fan design howling and wailing like abansheelol.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 07:35:12 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on February 23, 2021, 07:31:29 pmYou know the old adage, "never buy v1.0 of anything" - it became an adage for a reason!

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 07:39:32 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 22, 2021, 10:28:23 pmI think 40k points is probably related to displaying plots.I've been at the company's booth a couple of years ago. I had only a glance at their equipment, so no real experience, but it felt cool. They integrate their equipment right into the bench. The UI is also quite interesting: touch sensors, touch screen. I wish they had more affordable prices.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 07:47:37 pm
content: Quote from: exe on February 23, 2021, 07:39:32 pmNo, it is a 40000 count meter. And you are not wrong, it is cool, but Uni-T UT181 is better meter.Hard pass....

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 07:55:12 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on February 23, 2021, 07:31:29 pmSpeaking of cooling fans, I just finished repairing a "for parts" electronic load, an acdc brand EL300. I couldn't believe how quiet the fan was, especially considering how much air it pumps. Looking at the well made, cast aluminum, heavy, and smooth running fan, it would probably cost more today than the entire budget for a modern electronic device!

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 08:15:34 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 23, 2021, 07:47:37 pmIdk, it shows here "-0.00002" at 1000V range:https://youtu.be/kVYaTmI3Qg0?t=69. Accuracy specification is only 0.08%+5digits, which I think is quite low.

author: ResistorRob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 05:09:25 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 23, 2021, 03:14:58 amThanks for answering the question I wanted an answer to but didn't ask. I didn't want to be a pain in the rump and ask questions about a product you're not supposed to talk about.It's very disappointing it doesn't have the cool trend plot feature, but at least it has a data logger.Open to opinions from anyone on this question.... If you could have only one bench meter for your lab would you go for the new GW Instek with the color display (seems to be loaded) or this Keysight DMM?I have it narrowed down to these 2, but I do also like the new Hantek clone of the Keysight bench meter. I'm just a serious hobbyist and very poor so whatever I buy needs to last me 10 years.Suggestions?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 06:01:17 am
content: Quote from: ResistorRob on February 24, 2021, 05:09:25 amI'm not sure I'd count on that with any of the new stuff, quite frankly. Try to at least get a 3 year warranty. My answer would be neither, I'd buy the Fluke 8808A if I could only have one bench meter and it had to be less than $1K and last a long time.However, if you want a bit more bang-for-buck, don't overlook the BK Precision 5492C. You can download and try the software free from their website and it doesn't have a 1 hour limitation either. I don't know if it has a demo mode or how much you can see without actually having a meter.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 07:08:51 am
content: Quote from: ResistorRob on February 24, 2021, 05:09:25 amI personally still prefer Keithey DMMs. They have all the common useful features, they have the performance, while also being very fast in general. They get high update speeds even with lots of digits, they autorange on ohms in literally the blink of an eye..etc. The fancy touchscreen Keithley DMM6500 is a bit pricey but still in line with what you would pay for a proper name brand 6.5 digit DMM.I didn't want to drop that sort of money on a 6.5digit DMM tho so i picked up a used good condition Keyithley 2015 for about 400 bucks. It is so far my favorite DMM. But if i had no DMM and wanted to pick up a brand new high resolution bench DMM id go for a DMM6500 hands down.No problem with a decent bench DMM lasting 10 years. The technology in DMMs has not progressed all that much in the last 20 years apart from perhaps 6.5 digit DMMs getting cheaper. So i wouldn't expect bench DMMs to get much better in the next 10 years.

author: msuthar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2021, 12:31:55 am
content: EDU33212A Dual Channel Function Generator; $915 US List PriceEDU36311A DC Power Supply; $838 US List PriceEDU34450A Digital Multimeter; $696 US List PriceEDUX1052G Dual Channel Oscilloscope; $722 US List Price

author: Zlotnik
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2021, 12:18:52 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on February 24, 2021, 07:08:51 amWhile it's OT for this thread, I'd like to second that. The modern Keithleys have feature that I haven't seen with any of the others: you can script them in luaon the device! (They call it TSP script, but it's effectively lua)I found this to be very useful for complex, long measurements. Much more self-contained and simpler to set up than eg pyvisa et al.QuotePrice-wise, I was surprised how competitive the Keithley is. Cheaper than Keysight, and only about 30% more expensive than GW-Instek and BK Precision, 40% more than Siglent. At significantly better specs and features.I'll stop the OT now though.Looking forward to seeing what the new budget Keysight line will bring!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 26, 2021, 03:09:12 am
content: Quote from: msuthar on February 25, 2021, 12:31:55 amHow is the function gen the most expensive thing in that lineup?

author: ResistorRob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2021, 05:06:09 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 24, 2021, 06:01:17 amThe Fluke 8808A is absolutely ugly. I don't want to look at that everyday, lolThe BK Precision 5492C seems nice, but I don't see any way it's superior to the Instek GDM-9060. It's one digit less and costs $100 more and has a more dated look to it.Quote from: Berni on February 24, 2021, 07:08:51 amThat is actually my dream meter and if price was no object I would snap one up in a heartbeat. The problem is it costs double of the meters I mentions ($700 vs $1400). I do agree with everything you said and has me thinking maybe I should just save up longer and just get the meter I reaaallllyyy want.Quote from: EEVblog on February 26, 2021, 03:09:12 amI was shocked by that as well. When I was in tech school we had one of those crappy 4 in 1 labs, so I have a bit of a sentimental spot for them. haha So my initial idea was to buy all 4 of these and 3D print a cabinet to put them in. But the price of the function gen is insane, so I can't bring myself to do it. Would be super cool to have 4 matching pieces of Keysight on the bench but I'm on a tight budget and looking for some value.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2021, 05:10:52 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 26, 2021, 03:09:12 amWell we don't have any specifications yet, but its a big price down compared to the 33500 series. If it carries most of their capabilities then the price is excellent.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2021, 06:00:22 am
content: Quote from: Someone on February 26, 2021, 05:10:52 amMore info on the EDU33212A here...EDU33210 Series Trueform Arbitrary Waveform Generators User’s Guidehttp://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/EDU33212-90002.pdfAlso:EDU34450A 5½ Digit Digital Multimeter User’s Guidehttp://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/EDU34450-90002.pdfEDU36311A Triple Output Programmable DC Power Supplyhttp://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/EDU36311-90002.pdf

author: balage
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2021, 07:31:26 am
content: Aaand: BenchVue is included!

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2021, 07:46:42 am
content: Quote from: gslick on February 26, 2021, 06:00:22 amI can see why those aren't publicly linked yet, lots of placeholder/copy-paste and links to other documents (such as specifications) deadFrom the user guide, a few features pulled out from the 33500 series (having not comprehensively read through all of it):Isolated outputsSequenced arbitrary waveforms

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 04:24:37 am
content: The 34450A Multimeter User Guide is needs some work:pg. 37,38,40 AC sources do not have polarity, pg. 44 thermistors as well.pg. 63/64 Measure DCV and AC ripple, the test circuit is wrong, should be on the secondary side?The measurement results are also laughable 0.00175VDC and 78.782mV AC have you tried turning on power lol.pg. 94 bad URL to EDU34450A specs:https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/3120-1002/data-sheets/EDU34450A-5-5-Digit-Dual-Display-Digital-Multimeter.pdfredirects to:https://www.keysight.com/ca/en/assets/3120-1002/white-papers/Exposing-Hidden-Security-Threats-and-Network-Attacks.pdfpg. 103 duplicate paragraph"The EDU34450A supports USB flash drives with the following specification: USB2.0, 32GB, FAT32 format. We recommend using a SanDisk Cruzer Blade flash drive for the front panel USB port."Only one size USB drive works?I wish Keysight would blank leading zeros and get rid of the European? gap every three digits, looks nutty I've never liked that bad idea.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 05:31:53 am
content: Quote from: ResistorRob on February 26, 2021, 05:06:09 amI didn't realize it was a fashion show!If you want 6.5 digits, BK has the 5493C. I don't know where you are looking at prices, but the 5493C will be more than the GW-Instek--it's twice as accurate.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 08:42:25 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 27, 2021, 05:31:53 amGW Instek GDM-9061 is comparable product.. With comparable price..In the same price range of Keithley DMM6500. While I'm still not convinced about DMM6500 (too much bugs for my taste so far) it might be better choice especially with that scanner card slot...

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 08:43:49 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on February 27, 2021, 04:24:37 amWhy? I like leading zeros because it is obvious what range I'm in , and, well, euro way of writing numbers in math is superior...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 09:10:32 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 27, 2021, 05:31:53 amI suspect a lot more decisions are made based on what an instrument looks like that many would like to admit!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 10:19:20 am
content: It’s all fairly reasonable looking kit. I await UK pricing so I can go “prfffffft” and continue to buy Chinese origin stuff instead.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 11:15:58 am
content: I like the large screen of the function generator, that could be a real benefit, also fitting to the form factor of the scope. But the DMM seems weird at first glance.Looking forward to Dave's videos.

author: Venturi962
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 04:42:22 pm
content: Service Manuals for the Multimeter and Power Supply (some photos of the inside here):EDU34450A Multimeter:http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/EDU34450-90014.pdfEDU36311A Power Supply:http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/EDU36311-90014.pdfProgramming Guides:EDU34450A Multimeter:http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/EDU34450-90013.pdfEDU36311A Power Supply:http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/EDU36311-90013.pdf

author: jusaca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 05:07:48 pm
content: I'm actually shocked the most, that the manual actually has disassembly information! A picture-guided disassembly manual! Haven't seen that in quite a whileBut I think that is very coolThe EDU36311A power supply looks pretty promising, I think? I mean, the design in a scope case is a little bit confusing, compared to the E3600 series, but apart from that they seem to be pretty comparable? Only the awesome low current range with µA resolution is missing ;/The power button seems to be a hard switch, if it is the same as in there scopes. That would even be a benefit, compared to the professional series!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 05:19:24 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 27, 2021, 05:31:53 amI just check but there is also a Instek GDM-9061 which is just as accurate as the 5493C but seems to be cheaper as well. Still no idea on which one actually is more pleasant to use and/or has features which could be handy to have.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 06:24:12 pm
content: Hat's off to Keysight for having service manuals, wish they would include schematics like the old hp and Tektronix days tho. Maybe others will follow with service manuals & schematicsBest,

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 06:34:54 pm
content: Most things have service manuals. Getting at them is always the problem.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 07:01:54 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on February 27, 2021, 06:24:12 pmDid you even look at them?They're not "service manuals" but really a CAL manual or "service guide" as Keysight calls them.It gives no part numbers for replacement parts, a knob or a board. The only user replaceable parts are the fuse, CR2032 RTC battery- the entire reason for giving disassembly instructions beyond resetting passcode.There is no right to repair here, if the PSU gave a sketch of the pass-transistor section at least that could be repaired as it's the least reliable aspect.The PC board photos for the multimeter and PSU are the same lol.I saw the clearout pricing for old 34450A price of USD $725.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 07:15:58 pm
content: It’s not worth repairing at that price. Engineer time and the fact it has a 3y warranty keep the TCO so low it’s not a trade off a business would bother with. For the lowly end user who finds one in a clearance auction, skip or on eBay, you’re not the target market. The manuals are written for the dude who has to do the 1y, 2y cal and that’s it.As an example I have an autonomous budget for about $35k a month but i can’t hire staff without going to corporate. That means I’m more likely to trade off buy vs build/repair.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 07:20:38 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 27, 2021, 05:19:24 pmMickle posted a detailed review link to GDM-9061 here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-gdm-9060gdm-9061-6-12-digit-multimeters-experiencereviews/msg3211432/#msg3211432

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 08:28:34 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on February 27, 2021, 06:24:12 pmA schematic these days would just be a load of big chips with wires going between them. Not much use to anybody.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 08:39:00 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 27, 2021, 08:43:49 amI wenton that rant a long time ago,ended up at the SI or Metric Committee and gave up there. Euro writing using gaps or dots instead of commas always baffled me.These new instruments are not metrology-grade. It's weird to see (out of the user's manual) "+3.000 7" the gap drives me nuts. Or "00.010 7" or "0.001 75" or "000.037"Please show me more zeros, oh autoranging too dumb to change units multimeter. 37mohms I can deal with- even though the multimeter's resolution hits the floor those some functions. If I'm manual ranging, why not show the appropriate range units (u,m,k etc.)? Instead it's padded with zeros. Minor gripe.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 09:01:16 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 27, 2021, 08:28:34 pmI suspect the Power Supply has a few more discrete components than the DMM, so a schematic would indeed be very helpful!! As mentioned the series-pass devices (MOS or Bipolar) are the weak link in most Power Supplies, and when they go it's usually a terminal to terminal short which takes out other components.Past experience indicates semiconductors always fail first to protect the fuses, not the other way aroundBest,

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 09:30:14 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on February 27, 2021, 08:39:00 pmTruth is, you're right, these devices have graphical screens, displayed values could be made more human readable. And, just to be clear, in math we write numbers with comma as a decimal point, and spaces between groups of 3 digits. But space is not full digit space, it's just tiny gap to be visible but not to break number as a whole. I also have problems with how they display 1 000 000.It should be more like1000000or even less space.On graphics screen, piece of cake. But, noooo...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 10:49:48 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 27, 2021, 09:30:14 pmDon't make the mistake of assuming that your country is the centre of the world. Comma for the decimal point is not used everywhere, it's mostly european thing. Not in the biggest places where electroncis are developed, like the US, UK, Japan, China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and Korea:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_separator

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 11:08:50 pm
content: Arguments about decimal notation are just a sign that the units aren't confusing enough. We need a multimeter that measures in Galvanis, defined as the amount of potential required to make a frog leg twitch.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 11:54:18 pm
content: That begs the question: where do you get your "frog leg standard reference" from?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 12:09:51 am
content: Quote from: jjoonathan on February 27, 2021, 11:08:50 pmAfrican or European?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 12:14:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 27, 2021, 10:49:48 pmWell... without ASML (a European company) most of the electronics companies would produce nothing at allAnd calling using 'gaps' a European writing styleUsing gaps is a very natural way to divide long numbers (or strings of numbers / letters) into groups which are easy to process. Adding gaps (spaces) is the first thing I do when I deal with a long string of text in order to make it more suitable for visual analysis.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 12:24:13 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 27, 2021, 11:54:18 pmQuote from: 2N3055See, it's working already! You don't need to worry about how to separate all of your significant digits if you don't have multiple significant digits.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 12:39:07 am
content: 34461A - you can program the Numeric Separator (comma,space,none) and decimal point symbol.These multimeters are a bit funny that temperature is only displayed with 1 sig dig "024.9C" where's all the rest of the digits, it's just reading a thermistor.Same for diode voltage drop, usually 3 sig digs like my 40 year old 3-1/2 digit multimeter shows. No good when comparing die temperatures.No mho's or siemens, I've never used those. Galvani's might be useful. The frog is likely LM399 species.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 05:32:50 am
content: I'm a little disappointed in the DMM.For one why such a low CAT rating especially for an EDU targeted meter. TSecond,; the diode test seems to be extremely limited for a meter designed for 2021 with all the types of diodes that exist now. Of course this is based on reading a manual with lots of typo's and mistakes so maybe the diode function is more robust. The manual implies 0.8 volts for the high end.Third; apparently no RTD functionality. This would seemingly be a no brainer for a 5.5 digit meter with 4 wire capability.Fourth; I'm not sure why one would offer a fixed continuity function on a bench meter.I actually find the power supply to be more interesting if a bit expensive. In any event here is to seeing more technical data real soon now.Quote from: gslick on February 26, 2021, 06:00:22 am

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 05:48:34 am
content: It is a nice function generator!As for the scope it has gotten to the point that making these is very possible with off the shelf parts. At time I wonder why scopes are so expensive. In a nut shell they are not much more than a very low end PC with A to D capability.Quote from: EEVblog on February 26, 2021, 03:09:12 am

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 06:06:17 am
content: Quote from: wizard69 on February 28, 2021, 05:48:34 amThat may apply to a very basic scope. I guess Rigol et al set the "floor" for what a workable basic scope can be made and sold for, unless you include various handheld "phone format" devices that can be even cheaper.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 08:17:57 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 27, 2021, 10:49:48 pmDidn't see this comment, sorry...Heard of SI system of units ?https://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/checklist.htmlWriting numbers with spacing in groups of 3 is SI convention. For ease of conversion in SI units. Choice of decimal comma or decimal point for radix (decimal separator) is optional..#16Digitspacing The digits of numerical values having more than four digits on either side of the decimal marker are separated into groups of three usinga thin, fixed spacecounting from both the left and right of the decimal marker. Commas are not used to separate digits into groups of three.proper:15 739.012 53improper:15739.0125315,739.012 53You misunderstood, it wasn't discussion about choice of the decimal separator. It was really about spaces instead of commas for digit grouping. I simply stated that we comma with spaces for completeness.I know what janks use, computers where US format only for me and many here for date, time, and numbers for years before they reached the standards for codepages that included our country.. We have same number, date and time standard sa Germany (DIN was translated and adopted as JUS in 1952, in former Jugoslavija, together with many other things) but I, and many others in my generation prefered English books, software, OS etc.. So before CP852, we all used US layout and language on all computers.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 10:17:34 am
content: We used spaces in finance these days. It’s less ambiguous than comma, period if you’re scanning through or glancing at the data leading to less mistakes. Only decimal suffix is actually a tangible mark.This is used globally across the three continents we operate in.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 11:03:26 am
content: Quote from: wizard69 on February 28, 2021, 05:48:34 amFirmware. The firmware of a modern day digital oscilloscope is incredibly complex and I dare say it is very likely the most complex kind of firmware you'll find on any piece of test equipment because an oscilloscope has become an extremely versatile tool. All this complexity comes with a massive investment in development time.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 11:36:23 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on February 27, 2021, 08:39:00 pm"Gaps" is actually the agreed standard.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_separator#Current_standardsQuote from: 2N3055 on February 27, 2021, 09:30:14 pmCommas for decimal separator used to be "preferred" but not any more (see link above).In my life I have to switch between dots and commas depending on who I'm writing for.In Spain there's also a lot of people (accountants?) who use apostrophe for decimal separator. I think the Germans do it, too.Quote from: 2N3055 on February 27, 2021, 09:30:14 pmWhat if you're using a monospaced font?

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 11:37:31 am
content: Spaces (and periods) are the only way to go!

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 11:54:07 am
content: Quote from: wizard69 on February 28, 2021, 05:32:50 amThis is 100% artificial software limit. The 34460A also doesnt measure RTD, while the 34465A does. Or it doesn't do trend chart. Why? Spend more money that's why.Quote from: wizard69 on February 28, 2021, 05:32:50 amYou dont really need or want high CAT rating in a bench instrument. You will only ever meet fused connections. With a handheld DMM, you might check the fusebox in your house, but a desk DMM is on your desk. I dont think they should spend money to fulfill very specialty needs.Quote from: 2N3055 on February 28, 2021, 08:17:57 amDont even get me started on dates. IDK how we got to the 21 century, without standardizing on dates. ISO 8601Everyone acts like some sort of moron, that cannot remember how to write dates correctly. February 28 '21 and other moronic way of writing dates. And then you take the canned beans in your kitchen, look at the expiration date, and you see 19.02.22. OK so it either expired in 2019 or its OK for another year, because entire countries are ignorantly make up their rules on how to write dates. My favourite guesswork is in Belgium, where sometimes it is written the french way, sometimes the dutch way, sometimes they make their own way, and have to explain it on the label in 3 languages. And none of them is the correct way of writing date.Quote from: bd139 on February 27, 2021, 06:34:54 pmFew people ever unboxed a 3458A. So it comes with a hardcover binder, containing programming manual, service manual, and datasheet.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 12:07:40 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on February 28, 2021, 11:37:31 amI agree, space digit grouping is best. It is the least confusing method of digit grouping while still easily letting you see what SI units you are looking at.Having no grouping is also okay, even if a bit annoying. But the absolute worst is when a multimeter shows you that you are measuring "1,112.744 Ohm" as things like the good ol HP34401A like to do. You look at that and go okay thats 1 Ohm and some change... wait.. no that's the comma so 1 MOhm... No Ooooh right that is 1 KOhm. Using a thousand separator character that is almost the same as a decimal separator character is a horrible idea period (Heh... get it? Okay il stop now) Luckily there is a setting in the HP 34401A that turns off thousands separation completely.

author: pe1oxp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 02:25:55 pm
content: I can appreciate the new kind of housing, it saves a lot of space on the workbench (depth).Prices are better for hobby purposes but what when Keysight doesn't sell to private persons anymore...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 02:32:05 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on February 28, 2021, 12:07:40 pmWhen you work with big numbers, it makes life much more difficult when there are no thousands separators.E.g. what number is easier to digest for your lottery win: $20000000 or $20,000,000 ?Using space as a separator is very wasteful on a 7 segment display, I'm guessing that's why commas (and periods) became popular.The real problem is that different parts of the world use different standards... an irritating fact of life, unfortunately. Just as irritating as all the different date formats in use. 12/2/2021... is that Dec 2 or Feb 12? Sigh...

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 02:51:34 pm
content: My preferred style would be "short half-rack". Like, Siglent stuff. It nicely fits my table, stackable, and not too deep.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 02:57:45 pm
content: Quote from: exe on February 28, 2021, 02:51:34 pmFor power supply and signal generator yes, but a scope?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 03:04:00 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on February 28, 2021, 02:57:45 pmYes. If a scope is deep enough I like to stack equipment on top.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 03:12:32 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 28, 2021, 03:04:00 pmIf only somebody could invent "adjustable shelving".

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 03:59:24 pm
content: My MSO6000 scope is that sort of deep design. So i do like putting things on top of it. The only thing is that the width is a weird non rack size multiple (much like a lot of other scopes), so it makes it more difficult to fully utilize the top of it with other gear. In my case i found out that one half rack wide multimeter and one Weller soldering station is the same width as the scope.The new skinny scopes are mostly useful for a more portable use case where you just grab its handle and plonk it down on any desk. Leaving plenty of room on the desk to work in front of it. While as soon as you have a large amount of test gear stacked up on a dedicated spot on the bench the skinny form factor doesn't really save much. It is very likely that you have at least one large deep piece of gear around, stuff like bench DMMs or PSUs. So you can stack those into one neat tower to have it conveniently in one place. Sure the first deep half rack wide unit takes up more space, but you can easily stack 3 such units on top of each other, at what point the amount of desk space taken up by a piece of equipment on average becomes the same or even less than one of those skinny scopes. If you don't have the desk space for a deep instrument, simply pull the desk away from the wall a bit and put shelves up. Giving you lots of desk space while having 10 different instruments at reach ready to go is not a problem.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 04:10:55 pm
content: [quote author=NANDBlogYou dont really need or want high CAT rating in a bench instrument. You will only ever meet fused connections. With a handheld DMM, you might check the fusebox in your house, but a desk DMM is on your desk. I dont think they should spend money to fulfill very specialty needs.Actually I do want better CAT ratings on bench meters. I may be 60 but I still remember the stupid things students do in tech classes. The idea that they are marketing this as a solution for education is what prompted my post.However in industry, at least the one i work in, "bench" meters do go out onto the plant floor very regularly. In this case they are either used for calibration+validation or in some cases diagnostics. Generally they should never get close to high energy circuits but it does happen. Recent enforcement of regulations for arc flash safety has equipment coming in such that the process control stuff is separated from the heavy 3 phase stuff, usually in separate cabinets. That makes the meter use "safer" but a better CAT rating would be very welcomed.Further if you are at the bench you may have three phase hardware you are working on. This honestly doesn't happen much today due to the lack of time which leads to a lot of "stuff" going into the recycle bin. I'm not real thrilled about this but there is little I can do about staffing because personnel says they can't find candidates.As for safety I'm not sure how it became a specialty need. Also fused connections are not a guarantee of safety. I've seen some strange things over the years when it comes to what appeared to be properly installed hardware.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 04:21:27 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 28, 2021, 03:12:32 pmBetter patent that idea quick.As for stacking I never really liked it because the minute you need to pull an instrument or just move it around you run into a lot of frustration. A shelf per layer might not work in every case but it is simple to implement. I can imagine though people not wanting to spend $100 on shelving to place their $20 000 of equipment on.Call me old fashion but I really liked the old Tektronix approach with the TM500/5000 series. I could see a similar approach these days with a much smaller card format. Select a suitable vertical height and then allocate horizontal on a settled upon module width increment. That would allow for very high instrument density on the bench.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 04:45:54 pm
content: Quote from: wizard69 on February 28, 2021, 04:21:27 pmShelving isn't ideal either due to varying equipment height and depth. I usually build stacks of equipment dedicated for a project (partly due to not having room for shelves). And sometimes re-shuffling the stack of equipment is necessary.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 04:49:41 pm
content: TiN knows how to build a decent bench:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/custom-bench-for-electronics-lab-using-t-slot-extrusion-frame/

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 05:14:42 pm
content: Quote from: wizard69 on February 28, 2021, 04:10:55 pmStudents do a lot a crazy things. It is even easier in Europe then in the US: the standard 4 mm plugs nicely fit many European power outlets.So it is a good thing they introduced the fixed shrouded plugs, especially for educational use.It makes some sense to have at least some 300 V CAT II rating, but not much more really needed.A much higher rating can get quite expensive as it may require special relays instead of the more normal ones.A not so high CAT rating also allows for cheaper fuses, which may be an issue for use with students.The new DMM format may not replace the old 34450 - just an alternative in a different form factor. So one has the choice, depending on the space available and use. Not so sure the 34450 is that popular with automated setups, as it is not that much cheaper than a 34460 or similar.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 06:41:16 pm
content: Bench multimeters have low (common-mode) isolation voltage to their mains power, due to the power transformer.It looks like the EDU34450A has a linear PSU for lower noise floor, there's a mains power transformer in there. The MCU noise in the 34461A is quite noticeable though.If I was designing mains SMPS using these multimeters, they would have a short life. They autorange down to mV and get hit with say 370VDC and click clank clunk relays with auto-ranging. So the input stage gets multiple overloads every time. This is differential-mode I am referring to. Then the mux/JFET's get killed and it's a $500 repair bill for the $725 product.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 08:00:06 pm
content: I don't think a really high CAT rating is all that important for such an educational bench DMM.It has to not explode being plugged into the 230V mains outlet and that is it. If any high voltages are used in the experiment the stuff is generally covered under some plastic, shrouded banana jacks used etc... because they know some of the students are stupid and will not pay attention to what they are doing. If high voltages at such high currents are used to require the proper high CAT rating meters then they REALLY should not leave students to mess with it unattended. But a mains outlet, any decent name brand DMM will take that without exploding and harming the user.The overall robustness of the meter is more important id say. It must survive having 230V shoved into it for any combination of input connections and measurement modes. Sure it might blow a fuse on mA or A but once replaced it should continue to work fine.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 08:07:16 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on February 28, 2021, 06:41:16 pmDo you really think that the maximum voltage is only allowed in the least sensitive range? That would be an utterly stupid design! DMM designers are smarter than that. The high input impedance alone makes that even at 1000V at the input the amount of energy getting into the input circuitry is minimal and can't do any damage.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 09:06:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 28, 2021, 03:04:00 pmMakes it a big empty box, when the reason it is big is just to have a display?

author: ResistorRob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 10:11:07 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 27, 2021, 05:31:53 amWhy do people in construction spend $50,000 on a new truck when a $10,000 will do the same thing? Or pay extra for nicer wheels, nicer paint, or other unnecessary things? An Ugly Pontiac Aztec will get you from point A to point B, but 99% of people wouldn't want one. I suspect you are in the 1% that would and don't understand aesthetic appeal. I do electronics for fun and having my bench be visually appealing just adds to the enjoyment. I do see beauty in a lot of vintage test equipment but that Fluke meter is just hideous.The Instek GDM-9061 is 6.5 digit count with 0.0035% accuracy and costs $807 at tequipment.net. BK 5493C is also 6.5 digits and 0.0035% accuracy and costs $834 at the same vendor. So you are mistaken that the BK is cheaper and more accurate. Both have comparable features such as histogram and trending.Don't get your feelings hurt because one person doesn't like one of your suggestions. I tend to be way more visual than your average person and went my gear to look as nice as well as it functions, so I understand it might be hard to wrap your head around if you are more old school and just want something that works and could care less about what the thing looks like. Thanks for your suggestions, but they just aren't what fits my personal requirements.Back on topic... being the visual person that I am I really love these new Keysight products. The prices seem good for what you get with the exception of the function gen. At a minimum I think I will definitely pull the trigger on that power supply.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 10:35:32 pm
content: Quote from: wizard69 on February 28, 2021, 04:10:55 pmFor starters its the fuses. A HRC fuse is more expensive. And the enclosure is different. If a fuse blows up in a multimeter, which is in your hand, you might loose a finger. If it blows up in a desktop DMM, worst case you might need to change the pants.Its much worse, that they might melt the isolation of leads or set them on fire before any of the fuse would act.And there are practical reasons for this. Unlike a 3.5 digit DMM, here we are dealing with precision. It's only 5.5 digits, but it comes from the same family as the 6.5 and 7.5 digit Agilents. Its entirely possible that there is tradeoff between accuracy and safety, and I give you an example.Take an ordinary relay, and try to measure 100 mv with it. When you do that with a 6.5 digit DMM, you realize that the energized coil will heat up the connection of the relay, and you have a bunch of tiny thermocouples everywhere in it. You can either use a latching relay (not safe), Analog switch of FET to switch the signal (not safe), wet contact mercury relays (kills polar bears, somehow) or high end relays that dont fit in the budget.Quote from: Kleinstein on February 28, 2021, 05:14:42 pmIsn't it that way by design?Quote from: pe1oxp on February 28, 2021, 02:25:55 pmThats what distributors are for.Quote from: bdunham7 on February 27, 2021, 05:31:53 amjust out of curiosity, who is going to calibrate that meter for you? Just as an example, the 34465A has 2 year specification, so you need to calibrate it half as often (if you can live with the accuracy). So while it might cost more, at 3 or 5 years, the cost breaks even.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 10:35:45 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 28, 2021, 08:07:16 pmAdding protection degrades the DMM's specs with the added diode leakage current, resistance (PTC), TVS capacitance.You can't measure to 100MEG or 1pF with those parts there. For this reason, bench DMM's have less/weaker protection than good handhelds.Typically the input goes first to the mechanical relays, a series gas-tube (1,500V) + MOV (1,100VC) for ESD protection, then for Lo-DCV range ~100k ohm resistor directly to the CMOS range switch IC/op-amp. High DCV range has the 9.9MEG resistor after the relays. It's pretty much cookie-cutter front-end protection in Keysight/Agilent/HP and Keithley bench multimeters.So the protection is the clamp-diodes on the CMOS mux or the op-amp with a 100k ohm resistor, should work right?Nobody has the guts or cash to put one of these through reasonable (true?) overload testing.Assuming the relay/CMOS mux switching and timing is flawless, you need to do +ve, -ve overload while changing functions and ranges to test for 100% coverage.I've seen with a DMM as part of ATE connected to a mux, it is common for the (i.e. Labview) program to halt due to some exception or just crappy programming.So you'd have the DMM sitting on ohms function but the mux is left at another pogo pin with HV -DC on it and then the DMM dies. The Ohms current-source can have weak protection on some models/makes of bench meters.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 10:38:59 pm
content: Quote from: ResistorRob on February 28, 2021, 10:11:07 pmThat is because you'd also have to wear this hat:

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 10:41:08 pm
content: We know nothing of the price point for these new Keysight instruments? The playing field has a lot of competition now.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 10:53:20 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on February 28, 2021, 10:35:45 pmYeah, you remember, when you could program the BNC on the back to be input complete? Now it's just "VM comp".And honestly, I dont get it why we lost that functionality. It's probably just laziness, or nobody at keysight actually used a 3458A themselves.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 11:20:45 pm
content: The 34450 is a rather different construction that the 6 digit Keysight meters. It uses an SD ADC chip, like most modern meters in this range. The high Z mode is only up to 1.2 V.This can be a rather simple construction. The internals are likely more similar to the Sigilent SDM3055 or maybe even a handheld than to a Keysight 34460. For 5.5 digits the SD ADC chips are well good enough and they are cheap and low power and they interface nice with 2.5 V to 5 V reference chips. It is more that a similar design could be upgared to a low end 6 digit meter.The AC mode also seems to be with a classic RMS chip and not Keysight's true volt digital RMS.The main similarity to the 6 digit ones maybe the case and some software parts - though for some reason even the screen is different.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 04:07:09 am
content: Quote from: ResistorRob on February 28, 2021, 10:11:07 pmI was simply responding to your stated desire to acquire a reasonably priced meter that would last a long time. I'm not a Fluke or BK Precision salesman. I'm not oblivious to aesthetics in general, but I find your apparent revulsion at the appearance of a rather ordinary Fluke DMM to be a bit hysterical, thus my amusement. "Egads, get that hideous thing off my bench!" What is it that provokes such a reaction? Is it the light earth tones? The 'dated' 7-segment VFD? Is it too square? I guess I sort of combine aesthetics, ergonomics and function when I think about tools. A good looking display to me is one I can see clearly. What looks good to you?Just to be accurate, I never said the BK was 'cheaper' than anything else. As you've noted, it is more expensive than even the GW Instek that seems to be closest to it in specs, although I'd read those specs pretty carefully before I came to any conclusions. Just be aware as you are shopping that my experience with other models from Instek and BK (I haven't seen either of these two in person) is that in real life they will underperform models from HPAK and Fluke with the same or even worse specs. That doesn't necessarily make them a bad value.And as far as my feelings being hurt, they weren't until you suggested I would be caught dead driving an Aztek. That's a low blow!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 05:35:04 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on March 01, 2021, 04:07:09 amIt could be worse - he could have accused you of liking the Fiat Multipla!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 06:13:27 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on March 01, 2021, 05:35:04 amI like this Aston Martin Lagonda

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 06:16:44 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on February 28, 2021, 10:41:08 pmGo a few pages back, prices and user manuals posted.

author: boggis the cat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 06:39:45 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 01, 2021, 06:13:27 amLooks like a prop from 'Thunderbirds'.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 12:40:07 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 01, 2021, 06:13:27 amWould make a better platform for a time machine than a DeLorean:

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 05:52:33 pm
content: The estate version looks like it'd be doing a wheelie all the way home from a hamfest.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 05:55:23 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 01, 2021, 05:52:33 pmNah, they have a *huge* engine in the front as a counterwieght for the valuables.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 06:46:15 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on March 01, 2021, 05:55:23 pmStill don't underestimate the weight of old dinosaur test gear and giant RF amplifiers with real iron transformers.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 08:23:42 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 01, 2021, 06:16:44 amSorry I was distracted at the wheel. To recap the list prices of these new instruments:EDU33212A Dual Channel Function Generator; USD $915EDU36311A DC Power Supply; USD $838EDU34450A Digital Multimeter; USD $696EDUX1052G Dual Channel Oscilloscope; USD $722NewAston Martin Lagondaplanned production this year...Theold one nice in green,pop up headlights and all digital dash, flat switches. I actually like it when designers can go futuristic - have fun, create/innovate, think outside the corporate box. Steve Jobs did it as well.Yes it has some non-chicken dinner aspects but these ventures nonetheless are a step forward.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 08:39:31 pm
content: I *think* they moved to CRT screens for the Lagonda, they were at least experimenting with them when I visited.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 11:37:10 pm
content: Quote from: pe1oxp on February 28, 2021, 02:25:55 pmAt home I have a Tek TDS2024. (I bought it new, well before Rilent came out with 2 GHz sampling/200 MHz 'scopes for $500. I think it was really the only option back then!) Despite the limited triggering, low memory depth and small screen, it still works well enough. That it's not very deep is a bonus, I can fit it in tight spots.At the day job I have a DPO3054. It's also not a very deep 'scope so it fits in packed benches. (Sometimes you work away from your usual bench.)My HP1660E logic analyzer takes up much more bench space. Actually, it takes up zero bench space as it's been on the top of a bookshelf for years. I have no need for a logic analyzer any more.QuoteHere in the Colonies I can buy whatever Keysight product I want, up to the limits of my credit cards!

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 06:27:23 pm
content: Deal-breaker on the EDU36311A PSU is the danger when charging a battery. It appears there is an OVP crowbar that trips if the PSU is connected to a battery and power is switched off. When power is switched off, the reference drops and the OVP wrongly thinks O/P voltage is too high, OVP activates and sadness results, as the user manual mentions.So you must use a series diode to charge batteries. What a hassle and loss of precise charging voltage.Some techs first switch off a PSU, then disconnect the leads. This is bad if there is a battery or load with huge capacitance connected, the backfeed can kill a pass-transistor and control circuitry.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 06:44:11 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 02, 2021, 06:27:23 pmCouldn't the pass transistor related control circuitry be designed to cope with this kind of real-world use case? It does seem a bit lame in 2021... this isn't Keysight's first power supply, there is a long and strong ancestry there.

author: 25 CPS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 06:54:33 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 02, 2021, 06:27:23 pmI took a look at the manual too and there's no provision for remote sensing either, so the idea of picking off the feedback voltage externally after the protection diode to regain precise voltage control wouldn't work either although if it did, it'd be even more setup overhead on top of the hassle of adding the diode.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 07:42:20 pm
content: Most lab supplies have a protection diode to protect the output stage from residual charge in a reasonable sized capacitor. So turning the supply off should not directly be a problem. The over voltage protection / crow bar may engage than, but it should be able to absorb quite some energy.The combination of relatively weak (1A) channels and a 5 A 5 V channel could be a problem: the manual says not to wire the 5 V and another channel in series or parallel (as they are different current rating). However for educational use this does not stop the users to do it. Let's hope the build in diode for reverse protection can withstand the 5 A.It could be a bit problematic that all 3 sources in sereis give up to 65 volts - this could be a deal breaker in some areas.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 02:18:17 am
content: Quote from: Berni on March 01, 2021, 06:46:15 pmThis brings back memories. About 40 Years ago I had started work in industrial automation (actually still a young kid). One of the old techs said he need my help moving an RF amplifier. This shocked me because the guy was huge, a cross between a biker and a weight lifter, well over 6 feet tall. That RF amplifier didn't look that heavy when I first saw it, but after a bit of a two man struggle we got it into position. I was shocked that so much weight could be inside an electronics enclosure.The other funny thing here was back when I was taking tech classes I asked about tubes. The instructor said I didn't have to worry about that old tech. Hardly two years later I'm moving an RF amp around with the biggest tube I'd ever seen up to that time.In any event a little off topic, but it does highlight how technology has changed.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 02:30:18 am
content: I'm looking or really waiting for, affordable electric cars. Well trucks or vans are actually my cup of tea. Tesla with their pickup is getting there. I actually like some the speculation floating about the net for a van covered in solar cells. The idea of retirement is not far away and a van to explore the world has some appeal.As for the Aston Martin, do people really by those ugly cars?Quote from: floobydust on March 01, 2021, 08:23:42 pm

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 06:22:58 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 02, 2021, 06:27:23 pmThat is a pretty silly design decision in that case. I charge batteries with lab PSUs all the time and none of them gave a toss about having voltage fed back into them even when disabled. Tho connecting a battery across a lab PSU in reverse will do damage, but that case is just user stupidity and a PSU should not be expected to cope with.But perhaps this works more like the current sinking capable rack mount PSUs that HP/Agilent/Keysight makes. That functionality is a bit of a trap for young players because it is not clearly started on the list of features and its rare for a PSU to do this. Most PSUs will let you drive its output above the set voltage by hooking up a higher voltage source to the output, but some of these rack mount PSU models actually start to fight you back and actively sink current to bring it back down to whatever is set. For something like a Agilent 66332A (Dynamic Measurement DC Source) that is designed for 2 quadrant operation this sinking current is the same as the current limit set on the front panel (this makes it a nice electronic load or battery simulator) while some of the other PSUs ignore the current limit and always use a sinking current that is equal to the max rated current for that channel. So having a battery connected would just drain the battery some while the PSU is unharmed. But even then i think this current sinking only happens when a channel is actually enabled and set to a lower voltage, i think the terminals just go open circuit if the channel is disabled.This feature is likely present in the rack mount system PSUs to avoid blowing up a DUT on a production line test jig if a 12V rail shorts to a 3.3V rail or something. So perhaps the people designing this EDU power supply seen that feature and thought this was a neat idea to also help students blow up less cirucits. Yet have not looked closely enough at how it works and implemented it wrong to also sink current in disabled mode or forget to limit the sinking current to protect itself.Dave should test it out what happens when you backfeed current into this thing from another PSU

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 09:10:33 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 02, 2021, 06:27:23 pmMany old Agilent and HP PSUs had this "feature" and many years ago I killed a brand new Agilent PSU, by charging a battery and the crow bar was activated.The magic smoke appeared really fast and dark.Since that time I am careful, every time I hook up a battery or large capacitor to a PSU.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 09:12:59 am
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on March 03, 2021, 09:10:33 amMany years ago I bought a nice HP PSU cheap because the owner had used it to charge a battery. The owner had slowed the fan down so the PSU overheated which also activated the crowbar. In the end the damage was limited to a few burned PCB traces so it was an easy fix. While at it I made the fan temperature controlled.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 09:27:38 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 01, 2021, 08:23:42 pmYep. Gotta love that interior. It's pure James Bond.The outside looks like a very longFiat X1/9:(The Fiat was a few years earlier...)

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 10:46:13 am
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on March 03, 2021, 09:10:33 amOuch so they indeed have a full on crowbar circuit that throws a dead short across the output once upset.I will definitely be more careful with PSUs from now on then.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 02:11:23 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on March 03, 2021, 10:46:13 amMost of the time (i.e. when not trying to charge a battery) such a crowbar isexactlywhat is needed!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 02:34:26 pm
content: Yes, a crowbar is a good thing (see Dave's video about how unpredictable fuses behave. Crowbars make them predictable!).The problem is, why not make the output circuits immune to external voltages? Difference between men and boys!

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 07:07:19 pm
content: I think a decent PSU doesn't need OVP, it's supposed to be reliable lol. Put the money into a beefier pass-transistor and heatsink or backfeed-diode.But here we have firmware and memory leaks which the OVP might need to cover.I can't easily tell if the new PSU can source/sink (push-pull) output. It's likely just a source-only.Is it an SCR crowbar? Must be.It's actually a bomb because charging a battery and power glitching or going out, the OVP trips and the battery then cooks the PSU with no fuses etc. on the O/P side. Easily start a fire in a facility.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 07:20:26 pm
content: Disagree entirely. Crowbar is important when the following equation is true:cost_of_load > cost_of_power_supplyA year or so ago I had what i consider to be a fairly decent quality supply (HP) blow the reference zener. This caused the output to bang itself at the collector supply voltage. You should plan for such failures.In such circumstances it doesn’t matter if the supply blows up. That’s what a warranty is for.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 09:18:47 pm
content: Moral: Use batteries with protection circuits on them.(...and (b) car battery chargers cost about $20)

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 09:23:25 pm
content: Or just stuff a diode in series.Farnell E series supplies used to blow up if the load drove the supply. This happened when you were charging an SLA off one and the mains went out. Blew the driver transistor and the pass transistor.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 09:43:04 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 03, 2021, 09:18:47 pmI can't agree when we are talking about general purpose lab PSU's, especially those that might be used in an educational setting. The one I have can be connected to a battery with the power on or off and in forward or reverse polarity without damage. If I hook up the battery backwards, turn the PSU on and turn up the voltage and current to max, it will simply discharge the battery at its rated current. No smoke and no fans. Of course it weighs and costs more than a Kaiweets model and doesn't put out as many amps. A proper, robust lab PSU shouldn't blow up, period. For more protection of an expensive load device, a separately adjustable crowbar with adequate fusing before and after it would be OK.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 10:07:46 pm
content: Some supplies have a fuse for the crow bar. So the fuse hopefully blows before the rest of the circuit gives smoke signs. As the crow bar is often a really beefy SCR this may actually work, as SCRs are relatively robust.Quite a few supplies also have a kind of weak sink capability - so if the voltage is higher than it is supposed to be, they would first sink a moderate current of a few 10 mA, usually with not much harm. This way the ouput capacitor would drain if you turn down the voltage with no load.Many designs have a diode, so that if backpowered, the source from the input would just provide power to the supply circuit. Unless to high nothing bad happens - draining the battry meant to charge.A reversed battery is usually problem, because there usually is a diode to prevent significant reverse voltage. This is especially needed with 2 supplies for a +- supply and than the current lmit engaging on one side. Usually the same fuse could engage as with the crow bar (if present). For the KS supply the point may be that the 1 A channels shoud have reverse diode good for at least 6 A (the other 2 channels combined) - not every 1 A supply has this.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 12:00:15 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 03, 2021, 09:23:25 pmThat's what the manual tells you to do.Unfortunately no external sense to compensate for the drop.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 12:03:23 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 03, 2021, 07:07:19 pmThe manual says is "program the output to zero", that implies software control of theo utput, not a real hardware crowbar.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 12:17:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 04, 2021, 12:03:23 amNo. Even on analog controlled PSUs (the HP 6012A for example) HPAK calles a current sink circuit a 'down programmer'. This circuit is intended to discharge the output capacitors in order to ramp the output voltage down in a controlled manner. Kind of a 2 quadrant operation.If you look at the manual for the HP 6012A you'll notice that HP calls applying analog voltages to set the output voltage / current 'programming'. There is no software involved; it is all analog.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 12:41:18 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 04, 2021, 12:03:23 amWhat is "the overvoltage condition"? Is it the output exceeding the set point by a certain amount or is it exceeding a fixed limit above the maximum output of the PSU?If the former, then it must be at least partly software controlled, if not it could be a standalone circuit that triggers it. I assume there is no separate OVP control.If 'program the output to zero' means the same thing as shorting it out (which is what they are warning about) then that implies that there is either a crowbar or that the main PSU outputs can sink current.I'd sure like to know what the explanation would be for setting up a lab PSU in this manner.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 01:36:34 am
content: I just looked at the manual for a supply designed by our ancestors (6200B) and it claims that back-powering it leads to "loss of regulation and possible damage to the output capacitor", presumably if you back-power it at a voltage that exceeds the rating of the capacitor...So, a battery would just cause "loss of regulation", presumably. I guess our ancestors weren't so dumb?

author: bdeianov
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 01:58:51 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 04, 2021, 12:00:15 amI was curious what the E36312A / E36313A supplies do, which do have remote sense. Turns out they have the same note in the manual. They further show the sense line connected before the diode, so they still can't compensate for the diode drop.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 06:31:06 am
content: Same thing is recommended for the rack mount system PSUs 6621A, 6622A,6623A, 6624A,6627ABut i have feed voltage back into one of these supplies and it behaved nicely. If you try to pull the output voltage above what it is set to it simply starts sinking current to keep it in regulation. I have even used it as a "battery simulator" on a power bank and it was perfectly happy both providing current and sinking current. The sinking ability appeared to be limited by the channels maximum rating. So if you had a 60V 1A channel it would sink up to 1A of current before the voltage goes out of regulation. All this is done in analog circuitry and works well. So yes it does sink current but it would just slowly discharge the battery.However the manual there talks about OVP specifically. This is a feature that is off by default and you have to manually turn on using a button. I have not tested that, but i would assume it does the usual sinking up to the channel maximum, but if you shove in more current that the channel can handle then the voltage starts to rise, eventually hitting the (likely in hardware) OVP trip point. At this point it would make sense for the PSU to fire off a SCR across the output to short it out in a last ditch attempt to keep the voltage from rising too high.Most other PSUs have an internal pre-load resistor across the output that is behind the current sense shunt. This resistor mostly being there to discharge capacitors and help the linear regulator be more stable. So as a result most PSUs do have sinking capability but only in the 10s of miliamps (depends on the voltage)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 07:16:18 am
content: Problem here is specifically in crowbar circuit. PSU that are more than one quadrant, or have active down programmer have current limit and won't be damaged. Most of the PSU are specced for parallel mode, and if they are, they are designed to back fed the voltage. Problem is only if crowbar circuit fires, or you reverse voltage, and that only if outside source (battery) can source too much current ( which decent sized SLA or LiIon or LiPO can) so there is damage.Bottom line, we all on occasion charge batteries on those lab PSU, but they are not meant to do so...If I do, I put big Schottky diode in series and raise voltage 0.5V. That's close enough for charging.Or I could put in mosfet protection reverse voltage circuit and not worry about voltage drop at all. That one could be put in a small box with cables on and you just grab charging cables and connect battery...It's just I don't do this often enough to be bothered to make one...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 07:34:29 am
content: If a lab PSU isn't safe to charge any battery it's not worth the scrap metal it's made from !At power loss it should default to output OFF unless it has an option to override this.OVP need also be selectable and enabled as necessary where instead of blowing fuses it should trigger the output to OFF.None is magic and are standard features in some PSU's.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 07:52:26 am
content: Those rack mountable HP power supplies "can" sink current but that was not meant to serve as electronic load, and their operator's manuals say that. Current sink feature was meant for programmable testing, such as evaluating Load's regulation and transient response. A program would run via GPIB, making the power supply change voltage fast. When such changes go from higher voltage to lower voltage , the power supply has to be able to sink current from charged capacitors on the Load side.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 08:01:18 am
content: Quote from: bdeianov on March 04, 2021, 01:58:51 amWhat about using a MOSFET as an ideal diode circuit instead of just a diode?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 09:01:29 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 04, 2021, 08:01:18 amSee my post above

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 09:05:02 am
content: That'll teach me for not reading all the posts

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 09:43:23 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on March 03, 2021, 10:07:46 pmMy $35 FNIRSI even came with withtwo spares in SMD tape:Quote from: EEVblog on March 04, 2021, 12:00:15 amLet's hope the students remember to do that.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 10:44:13 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 04, 2021, 07:34:29 amNonsense. For charging batteries you use a battery charger which is suitable for the chemistry. A lab PSU is the wrong tool for battery charging so don't be surprised it is not 100% suitable for that purpose. The function of overvoltage protection / crow bar is to protect your potentially expensive DUT (a prototype SoC board can easely cost US $1000) against operator error or defects inside the PSU.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 10:49:00 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 04, 2021, 10:44:13 amBattery protection modules are about $0.15 on Aliexpress:https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=TP4056

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 01:24:59 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 04, 2021, 10:44:13 amIs that totally fair? - a lab PSU is a general purpose source of power that shouldn't really care what you use it for (within reason!). A battery charger is an application specific device. So, I would accept that the charger is "better"... but surely I should feel OK about connecting anything I like to my lab power supply that isn't directly insane?For example, the other day I was measuring the internal resistance of a bunch of NiMH cells. My battery charger was not able to do this... so I used my ancient lab power supply in constant current mode and measured the difference in voltage drop between two currents, differing by 200mA. So, connecting a battery to the supply is a possible use case even if you are not charging it...Also, consider the use case of charging a supercap, or even a regular capacitor (massive capacitor bank in an audio amplifier, for example) and subsequently decide to lower the voltage...Overall, it seems preferable to me that a lab supply is able to deal with these kinds of real world scenarios without the risk of self destruction. Granted, a crowbar is always going to be an issue and probably should not be used without a fuse... but that could also be baked in.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 03:12:58 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 04, 2021, 10:44:13 amThe manual for mine specifically lists battery charging as a function and gives details on how to do it. A 'correct' charger is optimal for routine battery charging, but people do test/repair/characterize/analyze/etc battery systems just like anything else and there are many times I'm interested in more than just charging the battery. Other times I may need to charge an internal or odd battery in order to test something and the 'correct' charger is broken or unavailable. It's an everyday use for me and I can't think of anything that would work better.It doesn't have a separate OVP, but designing an OVP should be straightforward and properly implemented it shouldn't result in damage if you connect a battery. In non-battery situations where the OVP is there to protect your SoC from programming errors or internal control circuit failures, triggering the OVP should result in a current-limited internal short or, if the current-limiting part fails, a blown internal fuse. Triggering the OVP while a battery is connected should result in a blown fuse. Whether or not the PSU is capable of sinking current (mine does not) shouldn't matter much to a good OVP design. If you don't need or want battery charging capability then it is fine to buy a PSU that 'fails' the battery test, but there isn't any inherent conflict that I can see between the two goals of protecting your SoC and not going up in flames if someone connects a battery.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 03:32:30 pm
content: Now try to figure out how HP never came up with the idea of having a fuse in series with the output of a PSU

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 03:38:19 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 03, 2021, 07:20:26 pmHow does a crowbar work? I assume the expensive load is also sensitive to overvoltages. In this case the crowbar should engage very fast and at voltages not so much above the set voltage. If reference circuit doesn't work, how does the crowbar know when to trip?If crowbar set to trip at, say, 30V, then it's already late, imho.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 03:47:38 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 04, 2021, 03:32:30 pmI guess you'd have to sense the voltage on both sides of the fuse to do a really good job... it starts to get expensive!

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 05:44:58 pm
content: The problem I have with crowbar is that I did not know about it, until I read the manual.The brand new Agilent PSU that I killed a few years back, was a E3648A series PSU.The heavy crowbar traces were burned away completely.Luckily the traces could be repaired with heavy copper wires.Now I am aware !

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 06:37:10 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 04, 2021, 03:32:30 pmYou tell me. Some other manufacturers have them, some don't. I've worked on quite a few bench PSUs in recent years and although later model HPAK PSUs like the E36xx series are expensive and widely held in high regard, they don't impress me all that much. There's no reason to let them go up in flames rather than simply have a large fuse to protect against gross overloads. Or simply use an OVP system other than a crowbar.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 06:20:20 am
content: I think a fuse would be a good idea to have on a PSU with such a SCR crowbar circuit.Its not even that difficult to get around the fuse voltage drop. All you do is hook up the sense wire after the fuse. Since the voltage sense is a high impedance input it is a lot easier to protect it using the good ol resistor and TVS diode.Tho that fuse then only protects the PSU from the DUT. If the crowbar trips because of a fault inside the PSU it wont blow, but then again at that point you need an extensive PSU repair anyway, and a common fault with linear PSUs that makes them output too much voltage is a blown pass transistor, so your power stage is already dead anyway, eventually a fuse at the transformer would blow to stop it from catching fire.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 07:41:46 am
content: Why is it that foldback current limiting isn't incorporated in a 'quality' PSU FFS, even a $30 SMPS has such a feature as it's hardly a new leading edge technology when it's been around for decades.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 07:55:32 am
content: Quote from: exe on March 04, 2021, 03:38:19 pmUsually, taking radio power supplies as an example, you set the voltage to 13.8V and the crowbar to 15V. The specification for the load sets the voltage tolerance. Typically this is max input voltage of LDOs, capacitors, ICs etc directly connected to the supply considering power dissipation as well. Some things designed for say 9v input will quite happily run at 12v depending on how the internal power is arranged.Crowbar usually has a voltage ref and comparator and SCR trigger and that’s about it. They are extremely fast.There are two cases where the crowbar comes in handy as well which are almost never mentioned as well. Firstly, and this does happen with RF stuff, when there is RF noise on the sense lines to the supply. Secondly, when the load is too inductive and the supply starts oscillating. Even the best of power supplies can be coaxed into oscillating (try running something like an SMPS on the end of a few metres of untwisted wire.Quote from: tautech on March 05, 2021, 07:41:46 amHP6236/6237 have fold back limiters on the third supply. This is only used above about 500mA where the load is likely to blow up in your face or turn incendiary. I think it’s more a “let’s not burn the place down until the next engineer does a walk past of this test rig” feature b

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 07:59:49 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 05, 2021, 07:55:32 amWow, on the 3rd supply.....well I guess that's something.It might seem the designers couldn't count when the only are 2 more outputs.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 08:17:50 am
content: Well the other two are only 500mA soAlso it's difficult to rationalise foldbacks when you have a variable current limit. I mean you can't go over-current. What if it's a CC source you want (charging SLAs). Foldback would be a problem.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 08:24:46 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 05, 2021, 07:41:46 amHow would that be compatible with constant current mode? How is a outputing a random voltage at a random current going to help? AFAIK foldback current limiting is used to limit the dissipation inside the PSU in case the heatsink is not big enough.Besides that SMPS don't have fold-back current limiting; they just go into 'hickup mode' sending pulses into the load.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 08:27:21 am
content: Well the HP 6032A does have a dedicated foldback button.It works like a normal bench PSU normally, but if you push the foldback button the LED next to it lights up and this locks the PSU into the current mode of operation. If you are currently in CV mode and the supply hits CC mode then it will instead shut down and wait for the output to be disabled and enabled again. If you are in CC mode (say powering a big LED with a set current), push the foldback button and then disconnect the load, causing the PSU to go back into CV mode it will shut down too.Such a feature is probably even more desirable on such a massive PSU that can supply 1kW 60V 50A.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 08:41:07 am
content: Quote from: Berni on March 05, 2021, 08:27:21 amThat is not fold-back but 'electronic fuse' operation. AFAIK this is pretty much standard on all digitally controlled HPAK PSUs. On the E3631xA series it is called OVP and OCP.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 09:13:42 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 05, 2021, 08:24:46 amExperiment with your MCH K305D.Sure it's not foldback yet even in max CC mode it limits the voltage so that the max current is maintained and it will do that indefinitely and not smoke, pop fuses or traces.Quote from: bd139 on March 05, 2021, 08:17:50 amIndeed if you exceed the foldback limit however with the PSU's I use for SLA's which are mostly 7AH or less you don't want to squirt too much current into them anyways and as they're near the bench they're easy to monitor draw and increase the voltage to the cyclic limit and watch the current draw drop away. Couple of weeks back I forgot and left a nearly charged 24AH SLA charging overnight set to 14.5V which was drawing just 10mA next morning.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 10:05:03 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 05, 2021, 07:55:32 amIn you example with blown zener and output voltage skyrocketing. Do you propose to have a second reference that would only be used for crowbar?Quote from: bd139 on March 05, 2021, 07:55:32 amIn both example, when crowbar fires the output drops to zero, is that correct? I'm not sure how useful is that, the load remains with no power. Probably, very special cases. If PSU is oscillating, the only way to "fix" it is to switch-off and do something about it. Like, adding more output capacitance, or reduce loop bandwidth, or use shorter wires, add filtering on sense wires, or something.As of oscillating, I was thinking if power supply can detect that. I considered using window comparator, or ideal diode bridge and AC-coupling to rectify and sense peak-to-peak voltage, but it was too much added complexity to my liking. Probably, digitally sampling output voltage and processing in software is easier, but might be not as fast as a hardware solution.I was also considering not a crowbar, but a down-programmer (essentially a load resistor triggered by comparator when output voltage, say 5%, above set voltage). Also quite tricky to make everything nice, fast and stable.PS I'm currently making a power supply, and I made CV feedback with adjustable bandwidth: fast and slow. Slow is to drive troublesome loads. Also helps with stability at low output currents (below 1mA) when output stage has too much gain. I think a few commercial power supplies too offer switchable speed.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 10:25:42 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 05, 2021, 08:41:07 amYeah i don't like the name they gave that feature since it is misleading, i guess its to not confuse it with the actual OVP feature of this PSU that is separate feature on a separate control. But the use case is similar to limit damage when something goes wrong.And yes lots of bench power supplies have OVP and OCP settings, but on all of the ones i used was it a UI pain in the ass to set up. Most of the time you have to manually set a OCP limit somewhere and then make sure your current limit is set higher so that it actually reaches OCP and trips out. Then once you don't need it anymore you forget to turn it off, and be confused what is going on later on.On the other hand on this PSU there is nothing that needs setting. You just use the PSU as normal and if you want this fuse like trip out protection you simply press that foldback button and see the LED light up to indicate its active. If you don't need it anymore simply press the button again and it turns off. I want this "magical act like a fuse button" on all of my PSUs but none seam to actually implement one.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 10:46:31 am
content: The classical crowbar circuit uses a beefy SCR. So one fired it will essentially short the output to some 1.5 V residual voltage of the SCR. One would even need to turn off the ouput before the SCR would go open again.Detection of oscillation would be a nice feature, but it is far from standard. A good lab supply with simple outputs should not oscillate with any reasonable passive load. A few not so good ones get unstable with large low ESR caps, or maybe high Q resonant loads. With seprate sense wires one can hardly avoid oscillation if the sense wiring is poor.The critical case for the CV mode is a capacitive load and even if not oscillating there can be quite some ringing with a tricky load. Naturally a regulated supply has a inductive ouput impedance over a larger frequency range.A SMPS may very well show negative differential input resistance - worst case it may even oscillate when powered from a battery with long enough cables.So the combination of poor SMPS and lab supply may show oscillation and ripple.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 10:47:09 am
content: Quote from: exe on March 05, 2021, 10:05:03 amYep this is why some of the HP supplies i mentioned have current sinking capability. As soon as you try to raise the voltage it starts to sink it to ground, staying in regulation without any jerky step response.Adjustable bandwidth is a lot more rare but some do have it. For example the HP/Agilent 66332A has a 'Fast' and 'Slow' switch on the back. This is likely because this PSU is specialized for a fast response since it is capable of replaying voltage waveform from a buffer at up to about the rate of 100K samples per second. So it is likely also much more prone to oscillation compared to a regular PSU. To get this speed it drives the output using a AB class amplifier output stage. So due to the constant biasing the heatsink gets fairly warm even when it is outputting zero amps.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 10:37:57 pm
content: Quote from: exe on March 05, 2021, 10:05:03 amThe point is to protect the load so return it to the safe condition of "unpowered". The point of the crowbar is to blow something upstream that is more permanent i.e. a fuse.Regarding the conditions mentioned, usually you twist the power leads together as that gives some common mode isolation or move the regulation closer to the load.

author: balage
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 09:29:49 pm
content: Here is something about the original thread.Do you see the screen of the instruments? At the bottom. Is that a windows bar? What da...But it is interesting the picture is smooth everywhere except the screen that is sharp. They must have photoshopped the Windows bar down there.They are freakin' playing with us.The pic is from a facebook post.Edit: The bottom right is the scope with so an unlikely screen. Also the Run/Stop button is not active with the Single button in the same time.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 10:03:43 pm
content: Nice catch, probably screenshots from a UI simulator running on a PC. Then its down to the graphic designer/artist who doesn't fully understand the products and whoever approved the image.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 10:24:31 pm
content: Quote from: balage on March 08, 2021, 09:29:49 pmYou found it! I was wondering if that would get mentioned. Each of these will have a dedicated Windows app/.exe for remote control / logging etc. I was involved in this shoot, and we did it all with the screens off/blank (there's nothing connected to any of the inputs). We did have a shot of them booting up, but decided to not try to get anything pretty on screen. That's where my involvement ended. Well, it was decided to add screenshots/screens in post and this is what they were given/used.For a promo/teaser image I think it's fine, but THE GEAR DOES NOT RUN WINDOWS ON THE BOX, it's all embedded OS stuff. Any of these silhouette images with LEDs/front panel lights one are almost certainly grabbed from the boot LED sequence and not actual run-time modes.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 01:54:47 am
content: Quote from: balage on March 08, 2021, 09:29:49 pmTop notch community trolling from Keysight!

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 03:00:20 am
content: Hey are you sure you didn't include the new secret instrument by mistake in that photo?

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 05:37:54 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 09, 2021, 01:54:47 amYou know, we gotta keep the bar high@jjoonathan gah can you imagine trying to go back to frog legs? Or ox heads?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 08:29:12 am
content: Quote from: Berni on March 05, 2021, 06:20:20 amNo. A large lithium battery can easily supply 1000A if short circuited. You would need a fuse with 1000A DC breaking capacity. Fast acting, because you want to protect semiconductors with it.And then you realize that fuses are not meant to be used to protect semiconductors, they are there to protect wires from catching fire. A power supply is not a charger.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 01:01:45 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 09, 2021, 08:29:12 amOnce you go down this road, you can equally argue "A power supply is not a diode tester", "A power supply is not a LED driver", "A power supply is not a TEK module driver", and any other specific thing you are doing with it?I have always viewed a lab power supply as a general purpose source of power with variable voltage and variable current - what I do with that voltage and current is surely up to me?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 01:05:53 pm
content: A scope is not a multimeter or a spectrum analyser either. But it’s a good compromise. Which is the point of a power supply.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 05:34:26 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 09, 2021, 08:29:12 amThat would be a standard AGC glass fuse at 32VDC, with sub-millisecond fusing time. And even with an 8S pack of 'huge' batteries, the combined series resistance of the battery, wires and crowbar circuit including traces would have to be 32mR or less for 1000 amps to flow for that millisecond.QuoteThat's a pretty broad statement, especially considering the range of products that are called 'semiconductors'. Fuses can--and commonly do--protect semiconductors just fine in a properly designed circuit, with obvious limitations. For a crowbar, if the impedance of the crowbar is just high enough so that the peak current doesn't exceed the SCR peak rating (which can be 1000 amps without using anything extraordinary) then the fuse just has to blow before the SCR melts. Not difficult at all to understand or design.QuoteAgain, a very broad statement. Mine are suitable for battery charging. It says so in the manual. They don't use a crowbar for OVP though, that seems to be suboptimal for battery charging. Actually, to me it seems suboptimal in general.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 10:40:42 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on March 09, 2021, 05:34:26 pmI'm sorry to tell you, but the only information in your comment is that you dont understand the rating of fuses. Look up the difference between AC current rating, and DC current rating of a fuse, and why they are different.https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/electronic-components/resources/data-sheet/eaton-agc-fast-acting-glass-tube-fuses-data-sheet.pdfBefore you start searching for it: No it doesnt have a DC rating at all. Moving on.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 01:15:32 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 09, 2021, 10:40:42 pmCondescending snark isn't helpful. I fully understand why AC and DC interrupt ratings are often, but not always, different. But I think the datasheet you posted has some errors, unless you would like to explain why a fuse current interrupt rating would go down with a lower voltage--if you can explain that I would truly learn something. Here is the previous version:https://www.grainger.com/ec/pdf/6F018_1.pdfFuses in automotive applications, especially 24/28 volt systems in larger vehicles, have to deal with some pretty high fault currents and they use AGC (old) and ATO (new) plain fast-blow fuses without any trouble. I think 1kA was pretty standard for 32VDC AGC fuses although I don't have a datasheet handy, and I don't think it makes much difference if it is AC or DC. (Perhaps you can guess why?) If that's not convincing or if you demand an explicit DC interrupt rating in a datasheet, just find a different fuse with the rating you want.https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/240/Littelfuse_Fuse_314_324_Datasheet_pdf-756861.pdfEdit: and here is a datasheet for a modern automotive-style ATO fuse that explicitly states 1kA@32VDChttps://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/240/Littelfuse_ATOF_Datasheet-523209.pdf

author: ResistorRob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 03:19:24 am
content: Nobody has posted the teaser video?I really like the interconnectivity between instruments and available apps for each instrument.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 03:26:03 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on March 09, 2021, 01:01:45 pmSure it is up to you but at the same time many power supplies are not designed for such usage. On the flip side special purpose power supplies for battery charging exist and are widely available. Considering that battery chagrining leads to fire more often that is should, making use of a supply designed for such usage is a wise move.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 03:31:26 am
content: Quote from: wizard69 on March 10, 2021, 03:26:03 amIt is best to understand the limitations of your power supply - RTFM - almost no matter what you use it for, to avoid nasty surprises.It is always "technically best" to use specific devices, but it may not be "practically best" - if you only charge a particular battery once a year that doesn't fit in your regular AA charger, you are not being totally crazy by using the tools you already have, instead of burning the planet resources on stuff that will hardly ever get used, right?

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 03:33:46 am
content: Quote from: ResistorRob on March 10, 2021, 03:19:24 amInteresting video but not enough info! I could use the scope offering, maybe even some of the other instruments.As for apps, if HPAK is just doing Windows I'm not going to be all that happy.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 06:38:26 am
content: Quote from: wizard69 on March 10, 2021, 03:26:03 amYou don't always have a charger on hand for every single thing. For example do you have a battery charger for 9V block Ni-MH batteries?Most chargers do the same thing a bench PSU does anyway. Supply a constant voltage with a current limit. Also there are cases where you might need more control over a charger that just on/off. One example is a battery test rig i cobbled together from a PSU and electronic load connected to a PC. It was used to generate test scenarios for a few battery monitoring systems that ran various types and sizes of lead acid batteries up and down for weeks non stop. For this i needed a battery charger that can easily be told by a PC to charge a battery in various different conditions. Such a thing is a lab PSU with SCPI control. But i did blow up one PSU during those tests, however it was not because the big ass deep cycle lead acid battery would feed power back into it, it was simply a cheep Tenma brand PSU from Farnell. Its cooling was apparently too poor(despite having a fan and no obstructions) and so after outputting a lot of current for a while the pass transistors gave up the ghost, my SCPI software even captured a graph of its death over the course of a few seconds as the output regulation went erratic before shooting up. I had a diode in place, but it was mostly to keep the internal dummy load resistor inside the PSU from discharging the battery when the PSU was turned off, i also had a fuse between the battery and test rig in case something blew up and the battery dumped all its might into it. I replaced the PSU with a better quality BK Precision PSU and it was running fine.So the actual risk here was that the died PSU went out of regulation and if unchecked would overcharge the battery to destruction. Luckily lead acid cells don't mind it that much, NiCD and NiMH can take overcharge too as long as the current is not too high. Any LiFePo cells might be damaged but not cause any issues otherwise, most batteries don't catch fire even if you try so. But if it was a Li-Ion Li-Po etc this could have indeed ended ended up a pretty serious fire.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 07:06:18 am
content: Quote from: wizard69 on March 10, 2021, 03:33:46 amThat's the definition of a "teaser".

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 09:43:48 pm
content: Did I see cloud connected test gear there?That makes bits of me hurt.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 04:05:01 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 10, 2021, 07:06:18 amYeah I'm a little short on patients. Work has sucked of late and tonight I came home to a furnace not working and I don't have the energy to even try to fix it. On the flip side my EEVBlog BM786 meter came in today. Maybe I can put the meter to work this weekend fixing the furnace.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 05:42:19 am
content: At least the weather is getting better?

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 08:26:04 am
content: with all the talk about the crowbar circuits in this topic, something i've never heard of before, i wonder why don't they implement a battery charging mode then? push the battery mode button = disconnect the crowbar until the battery mode button is pushed again? can just be a regular latching switch and have the power supply detect if it's closed or not so that it knows it's still in battery mode after turning it off then on again? this doesn't sound too hard to implement i think, maybe would add about 5$ in parts, but when talking about 1k$ power supplies, would that hurt too much?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 10:50:03 pm
content: Quote from: Anthocyanina on March 11, 2021, 08:26:04 amA crowbar can effectively be disabled by setting its threshold higher than the max output of the supply. That's how the crowbar I have here works, anyway.So you can leave the crowbar "off" (effectively) if you don't need the protection.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 10:54:39 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on March 11, 2021, 10:50:03 pmNot so fast... a crowbar can also kick in in case the voltage at the output is higher than the setpoint.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 11:06:13 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 11, 2021, 10:54:39 pmYes, but if the battery exceeds the max voltage that the supply is capable of... you really are trying to break it!I have never managed to trigger the crowbar unintentionally. I very rarely use it... for protection, I just set the CC just over what the DUT normally uses, that is usually good enough protection for Australia.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 01:28:46 pm
content: Related to the new EDU-series instruments, I couldn't help but notice the following note in the German Batronix store:"Attention:According to the manufacturer Keysight products may not be sold to private customers. Please contact our sales team"err.......ok? That was unexpected.source

author: Qw3rtzuiop
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2021, 01:36:29 pm
content: Quote from: Neganur on March 17, 2021, 01:28:46 pmThis seems to be some batronix specific restriction. Other distributors will sell to private customers.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-products-not-to-be-sold-to-private-customers/

author: Lowkus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 06:22:36 am
content: The dark coloring of the housing might be a functional consideration. Computer software has been moving toward darker themes because it can be more relaxing on the eyes, in particular it lessens the appearance of vitreous floaters.

author: jusaca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 06:27:31 am
content: Yeah, while I do prefer dark themes in software, I can't imagine how a darker casing would be more relaxing to the eyes... I think this is solely a branding thing, to make the testgear more recognisable.I really liked the old look, gray case with the black inlet for the screen, I think that was recognisable enough. But I also don't mind their new style. If they want to go with it, why not...

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 07:26:07 am
content: Quote from: Lowkus on March 19, 2021, 06:22:36 amI think its more of a trend than anything.Test equipment most likely stuck to bright beige colors because that is what computers back then looked like. And those all became that beige color because computers ware mostly meant for use in an office and standards ware being put down on what an office work environment should be like, among that was making this fancy new electronic equipment fit into the office environment. Offices are generally a bright and well lit environment so to fit in with the light colored desks and walls the computer equipment should have similar colors to fit in. Since offices bought lots of computers, the manufacturers made computers that fit into that, along with all the other peripherals like keyboards, mice, disk drives, printers etc... Then when people started buying computers for themselves they got the same beige colored boxes because that is what you could buy. And i suppose it just became the standard color for a computer to be beige, it looked weird if it was any other color. So i suppose test equipment drew from the same inspiration. Not all test equipment was light colored, but most of it was. So i suppose it also became weird for test equipment to be dark colored.But then people started caring less about what color computers are in an office and manufacturers started experimenting with black computers for the sake of being different than everyone else. Especially once IBM started making black office workstations. They stood out and so everyone else also started making black computers to stand out until it became the new standard once everyone was making black computers. So apple wanting to stand out from all that went the other way in making completely white computers or even making brightly colorful computers to stand out even more.Same thing happened when blue LEDs came around. They used to be expensive at first so only the fancy expensive equipment would have a blue power LED. But then everyone else also wanted to look fancy so once the price of blue LEDs came down everyone was sticking obnoxiously bright blue power LEDs on everything.I think this fad is simply now catching on to test equipment where going black is an attempt to stand out and be hip. I personally don't like it so much, but hey everyone has there own taste. Possibly 15 years later all of it will be black and the beige ones will be considered old looking, like it is with computers.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 07:44:50 am
content: Well they just started selling white PC cases and monitors again as optional and people are working out that dark mode was a bad idea in software. I suspect test gear will as you mention remain 15 years behind vogue so in around 2040 everyone will be going “ooh that scope is white” again. Probably while dressing in some 90s throwback outfit.Edit: got to say that I hate blue LEDs. They are the least pleasant colour. In some applications they are damn offensive. I’ve had to snip out standby LEDs on a couple of things because they are bright blue. And whoever came up with those horrible blue backlights on LCD displays should be shot.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 07:48:29 am
content: Yep it all eventually comes around.We just reached that point with Windows UI design:

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 07:49:50 am
content: Ah yes, indeed. This is reminding us that the last time it was useable and had enough contrast was 1998. I look forward to that 1998 again.

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 08:10:03 am
content: Quote from: jusaca on March 19, 2021, 06:27:31 amYeah! it's definitely not more relaxing, in software i think dark themes are a lot better since they don't blast as much light into your eyes, but, they are emissive devices, you can use them with no environmental light, but when it comes to reflective and not emissive surfaces, black/dark letters/numbers/symbols are more easily perceived against a white/light background than the other way around. Our eyes don't work exactly like a camera, but we don't have infinite dynamic range, and can't adjust to brightness changes instantly, so to switch from looking at a white/light surface or an emissive light source like a display then turn to the oscilloscope (which also has an emissive display!) it isn't a smooth transition to easily and clearly see the white writing on black buttons, on a black panel since the eyes now have to adjust to less light going in. It's not super slow or very annoying, but it is noticeable. I feel like going with a dark-ish grey like the color of the ti 89 titanium (maybe also on other ti calculators, i don't know) would have been a better choice if they wanted to dark mode test equipement

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 10:39:25 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 19, 2021, 07:44:50 amI can remember when blue LEDs came out, designers just went nuts with them.

author: jusaca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 11:41:57 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 19, 2021, 10:39:25 amWell, I do think they can look cool.I don't see the problem with the color, but I feel like 90% of products just completly overdo it with brightness! Maybe efficiency got so much better while many engineers still use LED currents that were adequate 20 years ago?

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 11:51:44 am
content: I don't think black front panel impacts the usability all that much.It is true that black text on white paper is more readable than white text on black paper. But that is mostly with thin lined fonts, once a more bold looking font is used it doesn't matter so much anymore. Perhaps if anything the colored markings such as yellow green blue pink channel markings stand out even more on a black background. Also there is the benefit that mat black plastic tends to be more forgiving to bumps, scrapes, dirt, aging etc... So in my opinion doesn't really degrade the usability of the instrument. I just prefer the old colors. I especially liked the older HP tan gray fake leather texture case with beige front(but that understandably looks kinda dated these days). For example Tektronix is still sticking to its unmistakable Tek blue color for the scopes. Fluke is sticking to its unmistakable bright yellow on handheld DMMsDark mode for software is different. It does genuinely help when working late at night in a dark room. Makes for less contrast between the room and the screen and has less of a tendency to upset your biological clock compared to looking at a bright cool white background of a typical text editor. The human body associates bright cool white light as being mid day. So that makes the dark color theme of all these oscilloscopes perfectly suited for those long late nights of debugging your circuits, since as we all know this is when the best work happens.EDIT: Regarging blue LEDs. Yes they are usually simply too bright, but would look okay at a normal brightness. I think this is because even the early blue LEDs (They only became widely commercially available around the years of 2000s) had really good efficiency. We do also have really high efficiency green and red LEDs too, but for some reason companies seam to still be producing the old 1990s LED designs that need 10mA to get anything useful out of it and selling it so cheep that people keep using them. While the typical blue LED only needs like 1 or 2 mA to be as bright as you would ever need for a indicator led.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 01:53:27 pm
content: Quote from: jusaca on March 19, 2021, 11:41:57 amAgree, "too much of a good thing" is a real problem with many blue LED implementations.

author: Lowkus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 04:38:15 am
content: So I just had an idea, what if someone were to manufacture new cases for oscilloscopes, kind of like designer-style housings. Would engineers buy that sort of thing, where they'd pull the guts out of one and put it into the new case? Or would it risk the stability of the oscilloscope to put it in a new housing?

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 08:48:45 am
content: I don't think engineers buy oscilloscopes because they look nice....I mean, nothing wrong with them actually looking nice, just - you gonna pimp your 300EUR Rigol with a 500 EUR burl wood finish?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 08:55:03 pm
content: Quote from: Lowkus on March 20, 2021, 04:38:15 amPeople do it with computer cases, but the market for that is huuuuge compared with o'scope cases....

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 11:49:34 am
content: I am sure dbrand or someone could make carbon fiber skins for your scopes.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 02:14:58 pm
content: Quote from: nowlan on March 23, 2021, 11:49:34 amPhotos!!!

author: iainwhite
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 02:58:58 pm
content: I believe Keysight did a special-edition skinned 3000 series scope for Dave.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 03:19:12 pm
content: Speaking of which, where do people go to get one-off front panel stickers printed? I have been using inkjet-on-nice-paper, laminating with one-side-sticky vinyl transfer sheets, and cutting on a vinyl cutter -- but the consumer vinyl cutters (mine is a Silhouette Cameo) have abysmal dimensional accuracy so I wind up doing a dozen runs before I get a cut that the buttons actually fit throughClearly whoever made the special edition sticker has this figured out.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 05:44:06 pm
content: Quote from: jjoonathan on March 23, 2021, 03:19:12 pmIs the Cameo good enough to cut the letters/lines straight out of black vinyl? - I think my old KNK Zing might just be able to do that, as long as you are not using font size 3 or something... I.e. the relative accuracy inside the graphic is quite good, but it is hard to aim on a printed sheet (even though the KNK has a laser for that).

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 06:51:01 pm
content: Yes, the cameo does a surprisingly good job even if you are cutting letters and the narrowest part is <1mm. What it doesn't do very well is hold dimensional accuracy as it rolls the workpiece in and out. If you are cutting a front panel, you'll find that the holes for the bottom buttons are out of registration by a whole mm. It can be painstakingly made to work by bracing the substrate so that it rolls straight, measuring with calipers and calibrating out the offset du jour, and running enough repeats until one behaves well enough -- but that's a right pain the butt. Does KNK Zing do a decent job with dimensional accuracy -- say, 0.1mm over 100mm, or thereabouts?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 07:59:11 pm
content: Quote from: jjoonathan on March 23, 2021, 06:51:01 pmI haven't actually measured it, but I've never noticed a problem with the accuracy of the KNK feed - it clamps the workpiece (i.e. the plastic "board" that the work is stuck to) really hard with knurled rollers. I have made some quite big things with it (e.g. 24" long) and didn't see signs of twisting or turning. Not sure if it will hit 0.1% but the next time I take it out for a spin, I'll try to take some measurements...

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 09:11:09 pm
content: Quote from: Lowkus on March 20, 2021, 04:38:15 amThe only way I could see such offerings as being successful is if the new cases offered additional functionality. For example a new case that slotted the O'scope chassis next to a 0-6 VDC power supply. Or maybe a case that offered a significant (+8 hours) battery powered option. I can't see much interest in swapping a case just for the laughs.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 04:03:13 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on March 23, 2021, 07:59:11 pmThe Silhouette Cameo also feels like it has a solid clamp, but I think the error gets in when small angular deviations at the extremes of travel get amplified as it goes back and forth. Adding guides to force straight sliding seems to fix the problem, it's just extremely cumbersome. In any case, I'd appreciate those measurements next time you do a print.

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2021, 06:50:54 am
content: Does anyone know which is the actual specification for the physical size of the signal generator? this linkhttps://www.keysight.com/zz/en/assets/3121-1004/data-sheets/EDU33210-Series-20-MHz-Function-Arbitrary-Waveform-Generators.pdfsays it's 314 W x 130 H x 165 D (in mm) but this linkhttp://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/EDU33212-90002.pdfsays 313.6 W x 164.7 H x 124.58 D Which one is correct? from the looks of it, the second one is the corerct one and the first one swapped their H and D measurements? I'd like to be sure which one it is, since if it is the second one, i'll have to move up one of my monitors to make it fit under there, and i'd like to do that in advance, but wouldn't like to do that and end up not having needed to! maybe Daniel could help clear things up? (it does make more sense it's is 165mm tall, but i want to be extra sure) Thank you!

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2023, 09:40:19 am
content: These aren't so new now - so hopefully there is some user experience to draw on.I wonder if any of the EDU33212A users on EEVBlog are using this AWG with their own arbitrary waveforms - in the video the demonstrator has the AWG attached to the laptop but it is not in remote. When I connect it to my computer I can't get out of remote to upload an external file, as shown?Any users out there?https://learn.keysight.com/arbitrary-waveform-generator-awg-basics-and-beyond-for-usb4-compliance-testing/lesson-6-lab-software-create-waveform-without-programming?fbclid=IwAR1Gmfn6e67PERHnJ6KZLcTY9a784WwDrzqm0Mwcff05aKOFVEl4oOrtm6c[edit. mystery solved? he does actually say the he exported the ms excel file onto a flash drive - though the video (at the point you might expect) doesn't show one being connected - but it has appeared by the end of the video - LOL]

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2023, 10:34:08 am
content: I've found the link to the manufacturer's supporting materialhttps://edadocs.software.keysight.com/kkbopen/smart-bench-essentials-series-collection-page-664078671.html