Flir E40 not charging  FIXED - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: billyt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 05:53:18 pm
content: Hello friends, I recently bought a cheap E40 (490 serial) camera that is not charging the battery. To give you a small background, the previous owner somehow managed to reverse polarity on an occasion with a self made battery setup (2x18650 batteries). Since then the camera is not charging the regular flir battery although it operates normally either with just the battery or with just the 12v power supply.When operating with the battery and I insert the 12v power supply, the charging light is blinking, in a strange way I think (two quick flashes and a small pause repeating), but it is not charging the battery.I have managed to disassemble the camera but have no idea what to check. As I mentioned in another thread the voltages I get from camera pins/connectors counting them from the right, are: pin 1-3 ≈ 4.39v, pin 1-2 ≈ 1.55v, pin 2-3 ≈ 0.89v, but I have no way to verify if these voltages are the correct ones, which I doubt.Thank you for any help you can give me.Billy

author: railrun
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 06:58:36 pm
content: Do you have made any high-resolution pictures from the pcb?

author: billyt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 07:16:17 pm
content: Quote from: railrun on May 31, 2019, 06:58:36 pmAnother member (targit) has taken photos from an E30 teardown. link:https://imgur.com/a/tn8aFIf you need something more specific let me know

author: railrun
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 08:02:54 pm
content: To help you, we will need pictures from the charging controller ic.

author: billyt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 08:14:07 pm
content: okay thank you. i will take some and post them

author: billyt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 08:40:39 pm
content: Here are 2 pictures. are they helpfull ?Edit: added some more pictureshttps://imgur.com/a/F5OGkWz

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 08:45:37 pm
content: The combined power and charge management IC will be damaged. The cameras have no protection of the chip so it takes the hit. Not an easy IC to replace so I hope you have decent surface mount leadless IC rework capability.FLIR will repair the fault for a fixed fee. Last time I checked the fee was £400 for UK residents. Probably €400 for our European friends and $400 in the USA.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 08:50:31 pm
content: I have marked up the IC that needs to be tested and has likely failed.Fraser

author: billyt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 09:09:34 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on May 31, 2019, 08:50:31 pmThanks Fraser for your help. unfortunately i do not have any knowledge for this kind of work. Is there an easy way to test that IC ?Also i have read that you have an E40 camera, so i would be very much obliged if you can measure the voltage on the 3 camera pins/connectors as i have mentioned above, so i know what the correct voltage should be.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 09:16:15 pm
content: Hi,Sorry my cameras are not coming apart any time soon due to other commitments. The chips data sheet will be available and that should tell you all you need to know. If you have trouble finding the data sheet, tell us the part number on the IC and I will see if I can find its data sheet.Fraser

author: billyt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 09:27:35 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on May 31, 2019, 09:16:15 pmMaybe i did not explain well. I do not mean to take the camera apart, just to measure the voltage at the contact pins where the battery connects to the camera with the power supply connected.edit: the chip has a marking on it 2f 2952 n4700

author: railrun
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 09:29:11 pm
content: Quote from: billyt on May 31, 2019, 09:09:34 pmMake a good picture from the IC and the testpoints around.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 09:42:04 pm
content: For info,The battery charge management tests for adequate voltage from the battery before applying a charging voltage to it.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 09:45:02 pm
content: The chip is an LTC2952.Data sheet is here.....https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/2952fb.pdfFraser

author: billyt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 09:47:08 pm
content: Make a good picture from the IC and the testpoints around.Here is the picture of the chip. is this okayEdit: added some better pictureshttps://imgur.com/a/F5OGkWz

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 09:51:08 pm
content: The V1 (or V2 if that was use instead) input pin that is directly connected to the battery will likely have been very unhappy about the reverse polarity applied to it.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 10:05:02 pm
content: Hmmmm I just looked at that chips datasheet and found no Lithium Ion charger capability. There may well be a Li-Ion dedicated charging IC on that board as well. It would be worth doing some googling on the various chip numbers to see if you can identify the charger IC, if such is present.This is why your E40 was ‘cheap’. It takes time and effort plus rework skills and equipment Tinto repair these cameras. I hope you enjoy the journey though as this is what I used to do for fun before getting marriedFraser

author: billyt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 10:22:13 pm
content: Thanks Railrun and Fraser for all the help and everything. Fraser do you mean the first pin to the right which is the + pin. Also i knew that there was a problem with charging when i bought it for 300 euro, but i thought that maybe it could be fixed somehow. Anyway i am charging the battery with an external charger and a couple of wires. I will follow your advice about googling the chips if i can find something, but i doubt it as i am not really familiar with such technical stuff

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 11:00:00 pm
content: You had an excellent buy for €300. Well doneSadly reverse polarity can be either a simple protection diode replacement or sadly a more complex issue requiring a surface mounted IC to be changed. This type of modern electronics uses small components that require some experience and suitable equipment for rework.In your position I would ask if anyone on this forum who is in your country is willing to repair the camera for you. I used to do such work for a minimal fee as I enjoyed the challenge. Sadly I no longer do such work, except on my own equipment. Someone may be willing to help for a reasonable fee. Otherwise you are faced with either leaving the camera as it is, risking further damage experimenting with hot air rework or asking FLIR to repair it. At €300, even a €400 repair is still keeping the camera well below its market value.Fraser

author: billyt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 11:14:48 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on May 31, 2019, 11:00:00 pmDo you think if i continue using the camera and charging the battery with an external charger i can still damage it ? Everything is working fine with this way. Also can you at least tell me what is the voltage in pins 1-3 and 1-2 if you take the battery out and just put the power supply on

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 11:29:35 pm
content: I think “Cat” already answered that question for you here .......https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/flir-e60-battery-connector-pinout/His readings look right to me. As already stated, a decent Li-Ion charger IC will check the voltage of the battery for presence and correct level before applying a charging voltage and current to it. The voltages present with no battery connected are basically just the the charge IC in the idle state awaiting the presence of the battery.I personally would not want to risk leaving a Li-Ion battery in the camera with it connected to its power supply/charger pack. Your camera is damaged and the charge circuit is compromised. If further failure should occur there is the potential for damaging the battery through over charging. I know it is not charging at the moment, but that could change as the charger IC has been potentially partially damaged and so is an unknown now.Fraser

author: billyt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 11:41:36 pm
content: I saw that reply but ithought that it might be different on E60 newer models. Anyway i pull the battery out of the camera and charge it with an external charger up to 4.10 volts to be on the safe side. Thanks again for all the help.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2019, 08:43:52 am
content: The charging circuit behaves the same wat so CAT’s readings are valid.If you are happy charging the battery outside the camera then OK. I am still a little concerned about the exact nature of the damage caused in case the situation with the damaged component deteriorates further. That said, the FLIR battery contains safety protection in the case of a short circuit occurring. The damaged IC could burn up though. Just do not sore the camera with the battery fitted just in case.FLIR offer an external battery charging dock and these sometimes appear on eBay at reasonable cost. I bought one for £120 that included the power supply (same as Exx PSU) plus two Kxx series batteries that are easily modified to fit the Exx camera series.Fraser

author: billyt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2019, 08:51:50 am
content: Quote from: Fraser on June 01, 2019, 08:43:52 amThanks Fraser, I have found something that looks burned to me. Here are the pics. What do you think

author: railrun
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2019, 09:33:44 am
content: Jep, looks like magic smoke. Can you read the numbers on the IC next to it?

author: billyt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2019, 12:19:48 pm
content: Quote from: railrun on June 01, 2019, 09:33:44 amcid ti 2aj p2t6

author: Miek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2019, 12:55:41 pm
content: That's a BQ24103 "Standalone Synchronous Switch-mode Li-Ion Charger w/2A FET in QFN-20, 1- or 2-cell"https://www.ti.com/product/BQ24103

author: billyt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2019, 01:09:56 pm
content: Quote from: Miek on June 01, 2019, 12:55:41 pmThanks for the info. Do you think the problem is with this chip or with the component that looks burned. Sorry for my ignorance

author: Miek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2019, 01:32:48 pm
content: I'd guess that it's both.If you have a look in the BQ24103 datasheet you'll see example schematics & layouts, and you can see that the burned component is the current sense resistor between the charger and the battery positive. For that to burn up, a lot of current must've gone through it (probably from the battery positive at around 8V back to Vin at around -12V?) - the only path back that I can see is through that IC, so it's probably burned up too.

author: billyt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2019, 04:02:55 pm
content: Quote from: Miek on June 01, 2019, 01:32:48 pmDo you have any idea of what the burned component might be or how it can be identified ? So i should be looking to find someone who could replace the BQ24103 and the burned component, if this task is actually achievable, hoping that this will correct the problem. Is this the way to proceed ?

author: Miek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2019, 04:32:39 pm
content: I suggest reading section 9 of the datasheet carefully. It has a detailed guide on how to pick the supporting components. You can fill in values that you know or can measure (input voltage, battery voltage, Riset1/2, etc.) and you'll need to take a good guess at Icharge depending on the battery specs and Riset values, until finally working back to find the value of Rsns.

author: Ismsanmar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2019, 04:40:41 pm
content: Like Miek have said, it'ss a current sense resistor. And it seems that, as this application note says, IT recommends put a resistor of 0.1 ohms:http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slua697/slua697.pdfYou can also calculate the value of the resistor using the formulas on page 4 based on the measurements on the board.

author: billyt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 08:34:09 pm
content: Thank you Miek and Ismsanmar for the info and your help. but unfortunatelyI am technically ignorant and can not calculate the value of the sense resistor needed. All I know is :- the AC charger is : input 100-240v 1.2A and output 12v - 3000mah- the battery pack is 3.6v 5.2Ah 19Wh (2x18650 in parallel inside the pack)So I would appreciate if somebody can direct me to the right current sense resistor needed (maybe a link). I found (https://uk.farnell.com/c/passive-components/resistors-fixed-value/current-sense-smd-resistors?resistance=0.1ohm) but do not know if they are correct and which one.I also I do not know which version of BQ24103 to look for, as there are BQ24103RHLR, BQ24103RHLT, BQ24103ARHLR BQ24103ARHLT and BQ24103ARHLTG4 versions.

author: billyt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 03:22:07 pm
content: Quick update and a questionI have changed only the current sense resistor (as a first step since it is easier) with a 0.1 ohm 1 watt panasonic resistor and the camera is finaly charging, but very very slow. it takes about 3 hours to go from 3.7v to 3.8v. Do you think i need a lower ohm sense resistor (0.05 ohm), or it could also be the fault of the BQ24103 chip and it has to be replaced too ?EditChanged the BQ24103 chip and everything is working well.