Surprised by NEW notebook default BIOS setting??? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2021, 11:24:25 am
content: On a brand new HP notebook, I was setting up 'BlueStacks', for the Missus to play Android games. Towards the end, it complained bitterlythat it will be extremely slow with limited usability due to a lack of hardware virtualization problems. Upon booting into the BIOS, I found itwas not enabled. I enabled it, and now BlueStacks runs everything fast, clean & faultlessly... Is there a reason why a new/modern systemwould not have something like this enabled by default, considering the majority of users lack of technical know-how ??

author: dave_k
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2021, 12:01:24 pm
content: Top reason is having it enabled is a security risk. Unless you need to use it having it turned off by default is more secure.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2021, 07:18:46 pm
content: Sooner or later, the security bods will conclude the safest thing is to never turn the PC on in the first place - then, disabling boot altogether will be the new default!

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 04:42:21 pm
content: No need to be snarky. If you do not care about security, it’s your own choice — but there is no reason to see the rest of the world from that perspective.Most people will never use VT-x, while it increases attack surface. Currently there is no known vulnerabilities that can be easily exploited, but — due to what that feature does — malware using VT-x would be a catastrophe. In that situation it’s a sane decision to consider it an optional thing for that tiny number of people, who actually want to use it.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 05:07:36 pm
content: Quote from: golden_labels on April 25, 2021, 04:42:21 pmI agree that you shouldn't switch stuff on by default that most users are unlikely to actually need, for efficiency as well as security.That doesn't stop me being frustrated with excessive security fixation in general...

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 05:59:51 pm
content: The justification was always security. Back when virtualization extensions were new there was a big panic about undetectable rootkits using virtualization so that it didn't have to modify the OS itself and therefore could bypass code signing verifications. If they infected the bios they could even survive an OS reinstall.Honestly that was all a bit overblown. If you have the level of access needed to install such a rootkit there are plenty of ways to do it without hardware virtualization and if you can infect BIOS/EFI you can do whatever you want anyway including enabling VTx. But the convention of disabling virtualization by default persists. There have been demo rootkits using virtualization but they weren't really any better to worse than other rootkits and the idea of an undetectable VM isn't actually possible.It wasn't a big deal at first. Early on, hardware assisted virtualization for 32 bit x86 wasn't rally faster than good software virtualization and we didn't have IO virtualization to give guests hardware access. But now that all mainstream x86 OSes are 64 bit only and software virtualization for that is slow or non existent I don't think there is really a good argument to keep it off by default more than any other hardware feature.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 07:54:26 pm
content: I notice that myself on having to turn it on when I needed it and it was disabled by default.I have seen worse. I remembered a time when Sony use to disable there's permanently on some of their stuff I think later than 2007 or so where there were no options to turn it on and I read somewhere it was to do with security risks, not in demand from customers, many of them not going go to use it etc... and it turned out according to this article that they had a licensing agreement to leave it disabled to bring down the cost of the cpu's down.https://mor10.com/sony-confirms-no-hardware-virtualization-on-vaio-computers-past-present-or-future/QuoteI was given a Sony Vaio Duo free, it was about 5 years old at the time, I think with a Duo core and dedicated ATI graphics card Duo at the time and that was when I was shocked to discover the Virtualization was present but no way of turning it and the bios hardly had anything in there, no power saving modes, not even setting ACHI or IDE mode (which saw on many at the time they were being made) and it to boot from the cdrom (on a secondary hard drive adatpr frame) but there wasn't I couldn't anything for that. I found just Useless apart from some specifications and a clock.it seemed they cared more about the decorating and painting pink and silver it (the paint was wearing off) than making it flexible.What I was missing though was that I was lucky not to ever choose buying a Sony laptop or something like that one considering that that one I read had a retail value I think of £650 which I thought was a way overpriced decoration.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 08:26:07 pm
content: Sony had a period where they were making some terrible decisions (rootkit CDs and all that) - this sounds like the kind of inept thing that a sub-par team like that could make... Despite being a Sony fan in the past, I stopped using their products due to the root kit and I have never returned as a customer - one of the few companies that have ever made me angry enough to "ban" them from my life! (pretty much the only one, I think)

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 11:07:00 am
content: (OP here). I get what people are saying here, and I guess I'm a bit 'unedjermicated' regarding the differences between Softwareand Hardware 'Virtualization'. I understand that using 'guests' within say VirtualBox, (yes, software virtualization!), is safe, because thereis no real(?) connection to the Host/OS etc. unless you include a special 'Shared' folder, or allow Copy/paste between Host & Guest...I'm 'assuming' though, that the likes of 'BlueStacks' on my PC is/can useHardware Virtualization, as that's what it was complaining about.However, I don't understand the technicalities of how that affects security?? (As in, how the hardware is 'shared')...I mean, one of the reasons for setting this up for the 'Missus', is that she's a bit gullible with some of the 'PC' Games she downloads/Runs,and often ends up with a lot of other crap software installed, including browser extensions etc...So I felt that just downloading Android Apps, within BlueStacks, then they are similarly 'Contained', and can't affect the rest of the PC !!And I've set up special utilities within BlueStacks to quickly clean it up, if/when required!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 12:32:04 pm
content: You could let her download games inside a VirtualBox as well, many of them work well enough, depending!

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 01:46:49 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 26, 2021, 12:32:04 pmYea... I hear what you are saying, but without that 'Hardware' Virtualization, the performance is usually crappy/slow/jittery...

author: vidarr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 04:07:05 pm
content: It has always been this way. What would be nice is a setting for it that you can access in the OS and then reboot. My ASUS boards have something like this, kind of.Intel could easily add this to their driver installation media.When most people see a BIOS screen, their brain automatically shuts down.The mouse isn't working what do I do................?

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 05:52:47 am
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on April 26, 2021, 11:07:00 amThere is basically no difference between software virtualization and hardware virtualization other than performance. They are both basically doing the same thing -- they execute the guest code natively until an instruction accesses protected state (such as the processor ring or page table pointers or performing IO), then the host steps in to emulate that behavior on the virtual machine state. In hardware accelerated virtualization, the CPU provides support to make that more efficient. In all cases the host has control over what the guest is and is not allowed to do.