Pcb copying  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: razz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 05, 2024, 11:41:12 pm
content: I want to have replacement pcb's made for my amplifier. The manufacturer no longer sells parts for this amp. Where can I have theseMade? Is it legal to copy or are there copyrighted? If it can be done can I just send an empty pcb to the manufacturer for them to copy?

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2024, 11:48:53 pm
content: Learn KiCad, EasyEDA, etc... Then design your own PCB and order from JLCPCB, PCBWAY, etc. Paying a company to do this will be very expensive.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2024, 12:17:52 am
content: The Gerber format that most manufacturers rely on today is vector. You might find one that can will work from a photograph, but it should be expensive.You could easily DIY a 2-layer board from a photo, but then you face copyright. It's artwork, and in the US, a copyright exists upon its creation. It's more difficult to enforce when its not registered, but it can still be enforced. You could ask permission to make a specific number of copies, and that might be granted for a nominal fee, if you agree not to sell them. You aren't likely to be arrested for copyright infringement, but you could end up paying a significant civil penalty.The best advice is from Kim C.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2024, 12:52:43 am
content: I would not be too concerned with copyright issues.You are not selling the product, just making for Yourself a product which is no longer supported by manufacturer.New KICAD8 will import a phot and allow you to place components an tracks based on the image underlay.If You can scan the PCB on a flat bed scanner ( with components on top side. Use the image and sample PCB to generate artwork in KICAD.export gerbers and then you can make the PCB.Better yet, get approval from equipment makers to make Your own for personal use only...in writing.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2024, 02:24:12 pm
content: Copyright is an important topic in some countries, don't ignore that.It can be your friend or enemy depending on which side you are, and there are no options in between.

author: razz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 06, 2024, 02:35:11 pm
content: I understand about copyright laws. Unfortunately when a company stops supporting their product, understandably after 40 years what are we to do. It looks like after hiring lawyers to make sure all is within legal rights it's not cost effective. With the device's becoming obsolete more and more it looks like our hobby might become obsolete too. I guess time to purchase new amplifiers.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2024, 04:13:02 pm
content: "Use it , or lose it" and related concepts that apply to trademarks and such do not apply to copyright. A book can be out of print for 100 years (or more), and the copyright protection still exists. (There are conditions that apply to the death of the authors/copyright holder(s).)Will you get caught? Probably not. Will it cost the company a lot to prosecute you? Yes. Will it cost you more to defend yourself? Probably yes too. As President Lincoln said, "A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client." IP attorneys are corporate and are expensive. You do not want to be pro se.If you get caught, will the company sue right away? Probably not. You will get a cease and desist letter, which costs the company almost nothing to send.Two choices: 1) Do it in secret; and 2) Ask for permission. The second does not prevent you from doing the first later.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2024, 04:17:07 pm
content: I wouldn't worry about copyright if you're just repairing your own amplifier. Who's going to know?Only if you start selling these PCBs do you make yourself into a possible target.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 01:43:58 am
content: As far as I know, there is no copyright on PCB's. It's just industrial parts.As mentioned earlier, in KiCad you can load one or more background images (front and back, inner layers) in the PCB editor and this helps a lot during reverse engineering. Higher quality pictures works best. Resolution does not have to be very high, but distortion from photographs is a bit of a nuisance. A flatbed scanner works best, with photographs, use a large physical distance and zoom in to increase resolution.

author: razz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 05:10:24 am
content: Thanks for the ideas. Anyone interested in doing this for me? $$. I know electronics but not pcb manufacturing. I have a passion for my vintage audio amplifiers and want to keep them going..

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 09:24:46 am
content: Are you absolutely sure it is just a double-sided board? How big is the board? Are there cut outs and/or special features (e.g., riveted parts, large areas of solder coated copper pours)?I think you would be better off doing a photographic method rather than dry transfer. Be sure to identify all vias and purposes thereof (e.g., change of layer or heat spreading. Anyone doing it for compensation removes any doubt whether it was done commercially.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 09:34:41 am
content: Do youy really need new PCBs? Can't be fixed?

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 10:53:06 am
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on April 06, 2024, 12:52:43 amBesides, aren't you allowed to create backup copies of copyrighted (even if it is so) material for personal use?

author: razz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 02:34:45 pm
content: Here are some pics

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 02:45:50 pm
content: Not pretty but perfectly fixable, just scrap the solder resist and solder there.This would be easy to copy using a scanner, fixing the damage with some painting program.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 04:11:47 pm
content: You can get PCB repair kits with grommets/rivets, lands, traces, epoxy, etc to repair the through-holes and traces. But it's finicky work and takes a bit of skill to do. You could get away with just the grommets/rivets and a bit of wire, but it won't look as neat.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 05:22:32 pm
content: Quote from: Kim Christensen on April 07, 2024, 04:11:47 pmthat's also what I thought I'd rather repair this PCB than copying it (just for the sake of saving my own time).But seems like he has pulled all the components already?

author: razz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 08:31:22 pm
content: Yes, I removed everything to start from scratch. I am going to try to repair it first. All new components. What's the best place for pcb repair parts like copper traces and round holes.

author: darkspr1te
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2024, 06:19:38 am
content: try the foil method,https://www.chemtronics.com/how-to-pcb-trace-repair-using-adhesive-backed-foil-jumper

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2024, 12:02:29 pm
content: Rebuilding a completely new board with newly sourced components can require a fair bit of skill. Typically in a restoration you don't want to "reinvent the wheel" just replace components that are preventing the amp from being operational.There might even be artwork or schematics already done (if you are lucky). In my opinion you are making some backwards steps. It could be more cost and time effective at this point to source and restore another pcb, but be more informed and careful in the restoration this time.Perhaps start by letting everyone know what model it is to see if someone can help find a pcb.Watch these videos on soldering/desoldering so you are familiar with the techniques/results.https://www.youtube.com/@mrsolderfix3996/videos