Mars helicopter - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 12:24:39 am
content: Almost ready to be released:

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 05:35:37 am
content: When I first heard about them planning on using a helicopter on Mars, I thought it was a joke. Helicopter in Martian almost nonexistent atmosphere? But apparently they were serious and this is probably even more impressive than the rover itself.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 06:52:54 am
content: Arrrrrggggghhh! Get to da choppa!

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 07:06:00 am
content: Get your ass to Mars!

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 12:48:29 pm
content: Quote from: Domagoj T on March 31, 2021, 05:35:37 amIt was a last-minute add-on, and not part of the primary mission. And it was already tested in a large vacuum chamber on Earth. And, while cool, they really need to get on with the primary mission since the huge cost was about searching for signs of life.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 01:15:29 pm
content: Quote from: MikeK on March 31, 2021, 12:48:29 pmSteady on.....Before diving intoanything, it makes a lot of sense to check through each and every part of the package to make sure they are all working as expected. This is all planned out - and I wouldn't expect them to rush it in any way. It's not as if you could call roadside assistance.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 02:53:06 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on March 31, 2021, 01:15:29 pmMy point was...getting on with the checkouts of the primary mission. It would be pretty foolish to have the rover crash or get hung up while doing something that wasn't the primary mission (which was over $2B). Secondary missions are typically done...second.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 11:43:08 pm
content: Ah. Fair point.However, having said that .... the helicopter has captured the interest of the public - and that is a very powerful element in the willingness of the powers-that-be (that are ultimately answerable to their constituents) to provide funding.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 12:54:28 am
content: Quote from: MikeK on March 31, 2021, 02:53:06 pmWhat's the rush? They're working on doing the primary mission, from what I understand there's quite a bit of waiting between the various steps. It's not like they're just goofing off getting ready to fly a helicopter around and neglecting the primary mission, some of this stuff can be done in parallel.I half expect the helicopter to fall over and crash about 3 feet from the takeoff point but we'll see.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 01:46:21 am
content: I'm expecting the helicopter to work. They've already tested it in a near vacuum and winds on Mars are terribly weak. I'm holding out for evidence of microbial life, though.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 02:26:09 am
content: I think I found the tech details:Mars Helicopter Technology DemonstratorBattery is 6 of Sony Li-Ion 18650's 2Ah.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 01:43:13 pm
content: Launch is delayed for some reason. Now it's no earlier than the 11th. I wonder if they need more time to charge the batteries.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 03:03:08 pm
content: Quote from: MikeK on April 03, 2021, 01:43:13 pmProbably weather. While the winds are much less than in the movies with Matt Daemon, its still a helicopter.QuoteThis is slightly disappointing, but understandable.What would be the power dinamics of the flight? Martian atmosphere is much less dense, so it would need larger propellers or faster rotation. But on the other hand, if a propeller is in reduced atmosphere, and its moving less air, then there is less friction at the same propeller speed. Soo... With the same electrical power put in (assuming frictionless bearings and such) do you reach the same lift power? Only your propeller is much faster?

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 03:16:13 pm
content: A larger, stitched view, together with the mothership:https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap210403.html

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2021, 03:30:23 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on April 03, 2021, 03:16:13 pmOh, it still hasn't been dropped yet.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2021, 02:54:32 am
content: It's dropped off now:

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2021, 03:13:06 am
content: "Hey fellas, wait for me!"

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2021, 06:46:54 pm
content: Rotors got tested:https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8915/nasas-mars-helicopter-to-make-first-flight-attempt-sunday/

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 06:18:53 am
content: Apparently they are having issuesQuote

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 10:55:33 am
content: QuoteThat's the most misleading description of a watchdog timer I ever read.

author: dbctronic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 01:17:53 am
content: Yes, actually it's awaitdog timer, only has the brains to wait at a fixed rate of one second per second. Amoebas are much smarter.Why don't they call them deadman switches anymore?

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 02:38:01 am
content: Quote from: dbctronic on April 12, 2021, 01:17:53 amYou are not the only one who asked such questions.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 04:44:55 am
content: I don't know about the rest of you, but I was recalibrated on this over the weekend when a couple of TV reporters were at JPL and got to touch and handle a full scale model (perhaps backup hardware). I envisioned this thing a couple of dozen cm tall, very toy like. Instead it is something like a meter and a half tall. The rotors span well over a meter. And at design speed are turning over 2000 rpm. Very advanced materials in the blades to deal with centrifugal effects.The arguments about whether it is worth spending any time on this are complex without even bringing funding politics into it. Even assuming the primary mission is to find life (or ascertain whether life does or ever has existed) the helicopter might be important. If the proof of this does not happen to be along the rovers planned route the mission will fail. Mars orbiters can only provide some level of guidance on the path to follow. The mobile scouting capability provided by the helicopter might be important on this mission, and would certainly be important for a follow on mission if the question is not answered by the current rover. Thus there is potential value now, and real value in proving the technology for a future mission. The chance that this will not be answered soon is high given that all landers since Viking have had finding life some part of their purpose. Each has found tantalizing evidence that might be indicative of life, but none has been conclusive. Those launching each of these missions felt they were gathering the data that might answer the questions, but Mars proved mysterious.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 04:50:17 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on April 12, 2021, 04:44:55 am...Running on a laptop-sized battery?

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 06:35:11 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on April 12, 2021, 04:44:55 amThe copter has a rotor span of 1.2m, but it's "only" 0.5m (4 dozen cm :-) ) high, not 1.5m (1.5m is nearly the height of the average adult woman).

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 08:52:57 am
content: Quote from: rs20 on April 12, 2021, 06:35:11 amCamera angles and all that. In the pictures it appeared to be chest high to the female reporter. I suppose I should have spent a few seconds googling it. Even though I know once I clicked on that rathole I would have spent far more than a few seconds reading up on the design. Even at half a meter it is far bigger than I imagined.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2021, 09:39:49 pm
content: Looks like it's postponed again. Or at least they're not sure when it will fly. They have to update software. At least they're getting on with the primary mission...Thousands of photos from Perseverance have been uploaded in the past week. Good!

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2021, 12:45:19 pm
content: Quote from: Domagoj T on March 31, 2021, 05:35:37 amIt'snotan almost nonexistant atmoshere... It's an atmosphere of (virtually all) Carbon-Dioxide. THAT gas is heavier than the 'mix' we have hereon Earth. (Let off CO2 extinguishers here, and it stays low to the ground). Therefore it is denser. Now, yes, Mars is smaller than Earth, and so theGravity on Mars is less, and it's the amount of Gravity (as well as the depth of atmosphere!) that determines the ground Pressure, and the resultanteffectiveness of such a 'rotating-wing'. However, the lower Gravity also means that the downward thrust that is required for lift, is much less!In fact a 'helicopter' on Mars, would require much less Power/Lift/Weight ratios, than anything here on Earth...

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2021, 02:03:31 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on April 16, 2021, 12:45:19 pmMars' atmospheric pressure is about 1% that of Earth. That is an almost nonexistant atmosphere. What it does have is mostly CO2, but it has so little of it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2021, 05:49:09 pm
content: Whatever the case, I'm quite confident that the engineers who designed the helicopter had a sufficient understanding of aerodynamics and the Martian atmosphere to have properly accounted for all that. It's not like the thing was lashed together by a group of maker kids.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2021, 07:01:16 pm
content: The watchdog tripped during the high-speed spin test? It seems to have a maker aspect, how does that not get caught during testing the software on earth.

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2021, 07:03:16 pm
content: They have a communication time lag of several minutes and there is no GPS on Mars. I'd guess it's something as horrible as the sky crane. Or even more difficult since you want 3D movement instead of maintaining a certain position for half a minute or so.Regards, Dieter

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2021, 08:11:30 pm
content: I haven't looked into it, but I suspect the helicopter engineers weren't the usual group of engineers, since the helicopter was actually an add-on to the mission. I'm just glad that deploying it didn't hang up the rover. I would quickly get over the novelty of the helicopter flying on Mars, but the Perseverance rover should continue to provide valuable scientific observations for quite a while.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2021, 09:00:03 pm
content: You seem kind of obsessed with the rover getting on with things. What's the rush? It isn't going to wear out just sitting there, and it doesn't have to be parked just waiting while the helicopter is sorted out. They have whole teams working on the project, they can multitask.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2021, 10:23:05 pm
content: Because...Science!

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2021, 01:08:04 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on April 12, 2021, 04:44:55 amWell, it's the same ballpark as RC 3D helicopters, it's carbon fiber. Although the Mars blades have a more aggressive profile than earth blades.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2021, 11:14:27 am
content: Yah!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2021, 12:37:55 pm
content: It flew 3m and landed!

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2021, 07:25:30 pm
content: That reminded me of the flight of the 14bis, the first homologated independent flight in the history of mankind, performed in front of a multitude for the whole world to see in October 23, 1906, in Paris, France.I'm in tears.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2021, 07:26:51 pm
content: With the rate that it climbed I would say there is plenty of lift margin.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2021, 09:05:32 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on April 19, 2021, 07:25:30 pmIt reminded me of the opening scene in Empire Strikes Back.What must those martians be thinking?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2021, 10:23:28 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on April 19, 2021, 07:25:30 pmSantos-Dumont was clearly one of the great pioneers of aviation. And the 14-bis certainly deserves credits for several firsts, including first flight powered by a V-8 engine, first public flight by a standing pilot, first flight by a Brazilian in France and many others. And if I understand how you are using the word homologated, the first aircraft successfully designed and flown to achieve a specific aviation prize.I somehow think you were trying to say something more with this post.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2021, 11:10:09 pm
content: Cute little dragonfly.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2021, 05:44:49 pm
content: We are the UFOs on another planet now!

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2021, 06:34:58 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on April 23, 2021, 05:44:49 pmNope. They're clearly IFO's.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2021, 07:42:44 pm
content: It's now hovered at 5m high and moved 2m laterally! Any guesses on the next daredevil flight manoeuvrer?https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56849723In other news (later in the same article), we have commenced the mission to pollute the Martian atmosphere with Carbon Monoxide, that didn't take long!QuoteActually, I'm not sure I follow chemistry of that one though... CO2-> O2+ CO ?An impressive Oxygen production rate though. I suppose if it wasn't producing a gaseous waste product, it would end up with a big pile of carbon!

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2021, 08:11:23 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on April 23, 2021, 07:42:44 pmProbably this:https://www.pnas.org/content/109/39/15606"CO2 splitting, CO2 → CO + 1/2 O2"

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2021, 08:16:50 pm
content: Ah yes, that makes sense. I was thinking in terms of 'you can't have O' rather than '1/2 O2'.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2021, 12:14:37 pm
content: Quote from: MikeK on April 23, 2021, 08:11:23 pmARRGGHH!!! . . .Oxygen exists in a Diatomic state/molecule.2 x CO2 --> 2 x CO + O2

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2021, 12:35:01 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on April 24, 2021, 12:14:37 pmIsn't that the same equation?You can't have O but you can have half as much O2.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2021, 02:02:26 pm
content: I'm assuming the authors of that article knew what they were talking about when they wrote that equation.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 01:21:20 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on April 24, 2021, 12:35:01 pmIn a volumetric sense, I suppose - but in chemical formula expressions, I was never guided into half of anything. You get multiples of whole molecules in a result - not half ones.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2021, 08:31:40 pm
content: Fourth flight is impressive:"872-foot (266-meter) round trip"Would be nice if this could do some scouting for the rover. Would be really nice if it would video a descent into one of the caves.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2021, 08:37:33 pm
content: It has been so successful that it's mission has been extended - itisgoing to be doing some scouting for the rover....https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56951752