Going to buy First Scope - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: uvamosk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 04:24:03 pm
content: Hello guys and gals.I been watching the EEVBLOG posts on youtube for years and read the forums a few times but never had cause to post till I decided to buy my first piece of real test equipment... LOLLittle back story I been working with basic electronics for a few years and have become familiar with the basics. I was finally opened up to the world through the Arduino platform like hundreds of others and have grown in leaps and bounds because of it. Now I'm ready to start buying some actual tools to work with instead of guessing. Some of the projects I'm working on require viewing Car bus networks and also need to generate signals that I would see from say a ABS sensor or a HIGH speed output hall effect on a transmission shaft. All these are signals I need to create and signals I need to be able to view.I have been looking at buying a my first scope for about 3 weeks now. I was looking at a Tek465 and was about to pull the trigger on buying it when I came across the videos that Dave had put up on youtube about the Rigol Ds1000z series. I had saw many of his other videos about all sorts of other stuff but ignored these because I thought It was to much out of my price range. Then When I did I was blown away by how much I could get for the price.So then that started me down a deep rabbit hole and 3 weeks later here I am. I Was really leaning towards getting the Ds1054z but saw they had a DS1074z-s with built in Function generator for 818$ on TEquipment.com. I liked the features but the price was double what I was looking at. Then I stumbled across the DS2072A-S-DEMO on Tequipment and for the price of 750$ it was in between the DS1074-s and the DS1054z. But offers over double of everything BW, Mem, Sample Rate and more decode options BUT only 2 channels instead of 4.So this is where I am stuck. This is my first scope and I haven't fully been able to determine which I would favor more 4 channels and less BW and sampling OR less channels and more BW and More Sampling. I would like to have the signal generator built in as it helps have everything in one package but I already have a 3mhz signal generator So I wouldn't have to have it.I am mostly doing Digital Circuitry stuff, So The decoders seem nice and the DS2072A has CAN BUS decoder options where the DS1054z does not. Mostly trying to figure out CAN Bus related things and other obscure Car based networks IE: toyota BEAN and so on. I am thinking of getting into HAM radio in the next year or so also.I have kind of driving my self nuts with looking so I figured I would ask for some help from people who have been in my shoes or who have enough future vision to know what might be valuable in the future.So any suggestions would be great sorry to ramble but it's been a really bumpy road trying to figure this out.But I know I will grow into it because I keep stepping into more advance stuff every time I complete a project.From Dave's reviews and other stuff I have saw, I'm leaning towards buying the DS1054z and just using it till I say Man I NEED more bandwidth or NEED more Sampling then just spend the big bucks on something higher end. Then just fill in the gaps with dedicated hardware IE Function generator(better than my 3mhz) and anything else I need.So I'm open to your guys help.I appreciate it.(All above Oscopes are with assumptions of the liberation of their firmware in mind.)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 06:38:58 pm
content: May I point towards the GW Instek GDS2000E series? These also have CAN bus decoding/triggering besides UART, I2C and SPI and the firmware is probably more mature than the Rigol DS2000 series. At least the hardware platform of the GDS2000E is much faster. I do recommend getting a 4 channel oscilloscope though. I'm using more than 2 channels all the time.I wouldn't focus on built-in function generators. They are not worth the extra price especially since you can buy a Feeltech FY3200S series (dual channel) for vey little money.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 06:39:57 pm
content: Welcome to the forum.Ah, the first scope decision.Wise choice to bypass a CRO, sounds like you might have the skills to keep one going but that's not what you need to be learning about when you want to get on with other projects.So if you haven't yet spotted these, they're a viable alternative to what you've been considering and you don't have to hack them.SDS1102Xhttp://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=4688&T=2&tid=1Promo going at the moment with protocol decoding option with CAN included free.A de facto 3rd channel for an additional trigger source can be via the Ext Trig input.The Plus models in this range have the inbuilt AWG free and the 16 Ch MSO as an option should you wish to add it later.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 06:57:19 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 29, 2016, 06:39:57 pmI believe there is another Siglent distributor here on this forum who is also NOT in the US so you can get some good info from them. As a Rigol owner I would at least check out what they say. Whatever you do, do not buy from overseas because you will not have a US warranty.

author: uvamosk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 07:12:17 pm
content: Well, that was another option i was looking at. I just didn't know how good of quality they are, they always seem to be cheaper and have more options so thay kind of made me question. I couldnt find to many tare down videos that in depth.I wasnt to hung up on the signal generator since i can get a better one in a separate unit.I saw on the front page of eevblog signet is doing 15% off and free decode options.. hmmmGuess I need to double check them, when i was first looking at them people keep saying the firmware was very immature at the time has it gotten better?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 07:23:32 pm
content: Quote from: uvamosk on October 29, 2016, 07:12:17 pmDave's vids:https://www.eevblog.com/2015/09/23/eevblog-800-siglent-1000x-oscilloscope-teardown/https://www.eevblog.com/2015/09/19/eevblog-797-siglent-sds1000x-oscilloscope-review/QuoteOf course they've improved.Just check that those that are making commentactuallyown one.You can check the fixes and progress for yourself on the Siglent sites, there's a FW changelog with each version.http://www.siglentamerica.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4671&tid=15

author: Daruosha
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 07:34:38 pm
content: I guess my recommendation does't meet all of your requirements, but why don't you consider a proper PC based logic analyzer for CAN Bus decoding and use any entry-level 4 channel oscilloscope (Rigol and GW-Instek) ?There are lots of technics to match your analog signals on the scope with captured logic signals on the PC.

author: uvamosk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 08:53:38 pm
content: Quote from: Daruosha on October 29, 2016, 07:34:38 pmYours is a valid argument and I have also considered that avenue. I was thinking of going that route as I was saying at the end of my first post. I was thinking just get the lowest end bang for dollar Oscope and pick up specialized tools for the other stuff I need. I figured I might not be able to get can bus decoding directly on the scope but could pick up something more speclised at it later. But at least I could try to decode the chatter by hand.Then the SDS was recommend which does come with CAN decode already only thing hurting is the lack of 2 extra channels.

author: uvamosk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 08:56:17 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 29, 2016, 07:23:32 pmDon't know how I missed the videos, thank you I'm going to watch them tonight. I'm wanting to put in my order by sunday so they will ship on monday. I wanted to go through Tequipment.com as they have the best pricing and was recommend by Dave and eevblog. It doesn't look like they carry any of the signet stuff..

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 09:03:32 pm
content: Quote from: uvamosk on October 29, 2016, 08:56:17 pmMy correction ^Saelig is the big Siglent US seller now and they offer the same discounts for products as TE for EEVblog forum members.Ask for the member discount code here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/equipment-discounts-from-saelig/

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 09:33:11 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 29, 2016, 07:23:32 pmWho does? I don't recall any forum member owning one of these and the reasons are quite obvious: protocol decoding only decodes what is on screen (really annoying), hires mode works on short traces only (14kpts), very short FFT (1kpts or so) and probably several annoying bugs which won't be fixed in the next year.To the OP: if you buy Siglent gear make sure to test it thouroughly using a test plan to verify if the functions you need actually work. If you find a problem then return the piece of equipment because Siglent will not commit to fix the problem in a pre-determined timeframe.

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 10:09:47 pm
content: QuoteThis is good advice, regardless of the badge on the front.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 11:39:11 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 29, 2016, 09:33:11 pmTrolling again.Do you own one....no.If you were taking any notice there's a # of members that own 1000X's in this thread should you take the effort to read it carefully instead of offering only ongoing trolling.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/That's only one thread.As for any outstanding bugs or UI shortcomings, it won't be next year before new FW arrives, I am told:The SDS2000X's and SDS1000X's new version is not far away.I take that to mean it's being beta tested now.So rather than rabbit on aboutyourperceived deficiencies, best you get up to date on the latest developments.

author: uvamosk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 12:16:11 am
content: So I'm trying to figure this out, The Rigol DS1000 Series do not have external Trigger? I was watching some videos on reverse engineering an he was using the external trigger I believe if I'm correct to figure out the signal coming out of the driver to the LCD on a ipod.Just trying to double check. Things I'm really leaning towards the DS1054z.. The Instek also look kinda of interesting. But do they have the intensity display?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 12:28:32 am
content: 4 channels scopes typically don't have an external trigger input. Yes, the GW Instek GDS2000E series has intensity display which can be tweaked in various ways (both intensity and fade-out time). But don't get too hung up on intensity grading because at the end of the day you want a signal to show on the screen. Also the GDS2000E series has input filtering which can be handy to clean up signals. I'm currently working on a project where input filtering makes my life a lot easier.

author: uvamosk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 12:40:58 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 30, 2016, 12:28:32 amI understand the purpose I think of external trigger, but can I do something similar with a 4 channel by using one of the other channels on the 4 channel.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 01:18:06 am
content: I know it is a long shot but why don't you call Tequipment and ask them since you want to buy from them. You do not have to buy what they say but they may know about returns, feedback, defects, etc. Try and set a price range to get started.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 01:20:25 am
content: Quote from: uvamosk on October 30, 2016, 12:40:58 amYes. In general an external trigger input is a blind input channel with (usually) a limited input range. With a 4 channel scope you can use any of the channels as a trigger source. Which reminds me that the GDS-2000E can also do alternate triggering which means it will trigger on each channel sequentially and show a trace. This allows to show up to 4 signals which aren't time related at all stable on the screen. It can be handy and I have used the alternate trigger earlier this year to check if an external signal was sampled often enough. Ofcourse the sample moments and external signal where unrelated but the alternate trigger put both of them on the screen as stable traces.

author: uvamosk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 02:08:33 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 30, 2016, 01:20:25 amOk i was thinking correctly.

author: uvamosk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 02:22:44 am
content: Well,I have done a lot more research into the different scopes after reading all the suggestions. It looks like between the GDS-1000, SDS-1000 and DS-1000 it just looks like the Rigol just wins out.They all have the same hardware limitations. 1GB split between 4 channels and when dollars hit pavement, the DS-1000z costs me $399 and it's hack ability just makes it to much bang for dollar power house.I was even looking at the 700$ to 800$ range and discovered that I couldn't touch anything but the 1000 series of all brands and it only bought me the 100mhz on them all which I can get from the DS-1054z with some love. If I was to pay more than 399$ for this Rigol I found out I would need to break the 1200$ mark to get into the 2000 series then I get 4 channels with 1gb per 2 channels and 512 across all 4. Which is a hell of a lot more for my money then paying almost 900$ for 1gb across 4 total channels. But at last I can't drop 1200$ on something So that brought me back to the old Rigol.I'm starting to think that this whole hack thing is part of their sales strategy. Those that will do it buy their product, those that don't want to buy their more expensive products and in the end they probably make up lost profit to the hack by more units sold. I mean if the hack wasn't there how many people would have just went bought a cheap crap O scope from ebay instead or from a different brand because the prices are all the same price almost.I really think its a well thought out sales strategy if it was thought out LOL.. Probably the reason they don't "Fix" it.I appreciate all your guy's help, I hope to talk to you guys more on here in the future as I'm sure I'll be asking more questions after receiving my new Scope.I would I at all be eligible to go through EEVBLOG to order from Tequipment.com? I'm going to put my order in tonight either way.PS. LOL I just thought about it when I order the Oscope is there any recommendations on anything I should get with it. Do I need to pick up a terminator?

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 05:45:44 am
content: Yes, alternate triggering is very handy and I'm amazed that the Rigol DS1054z doesn't have it.The DS1054z also has 1 megohm input impedance only, so I recommend picking up a 50 ohm thru-terminator or two for those times you need or want 50 ohm impedance (like direct connection to a FG for example.)Rigol also makes a very nice semi-hard bag/case for the DS1000 series. It's a bit more costly than some other generic scope bags but once you see it you can see it's worth it, if your scope ever does travel duty.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 08:18:19 am
content: Quote from: uvamosk on October 29, 2016, 04:24:03 pmA DS1054Z doesn't do CAN bus decoding but if you really want to work with CAN bus then maybe a 'scope isn't the best tool anyway.You can get cheap Arduino CAN bus modules. If you're handy with Arduinos then that's a much more powerful option.

author: uvamosk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 12:29:51 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 30, 2016, 08:18:19 amYeah after doing some crunching data lastnight I came to the conclusing that the can bus stuff like a function generator os something i could buy some dedicated hardware for and probably get more bang for dollar. I have a canbus shield from Seeed for an arduino alreadyI bought it to try to mess with toyota bean network but couldnt get it to see anything at all.

author: uvamosk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 12:35:23 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on October 30, 2016, 05:45:44 amSo instead of having a dedicated alternate trigger i have to use of the other channels right? Also do terminators need to be of high quality. Can i just pick them up off ebay or should i buy with my scope? Tequipment has a kit that is the ds1054z with 50ohm impedance adapter for 408$ so 9$ for the adapter.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 01:16:46 pm
content: I'd buy the adapters from Ebay. Many items sold usually means it is good value for money and the quality may actually be better than the unbranded ones you buy from a local shop. You can also use a BNC T splitter and a 50 Ohm terminator. It really doesn't matter for up to several hundreds of MHz. The BNC T will be handy for other purposes.

author: uvamosk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 01:35:47 pm
content: Thanks for the tip, guess I'll put in my order now. Yay. Finally.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 01:46:04 pm
content: Quote from: uvamosk on October 30, 2016, 12:29:51 pmA DS1054Z might be able to help you with that problem.

author: uvamosk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 04:05:47 pm
content: http://www.mouser.com/Search/m_ProductDetail.aspx?Amphenol-RF%2F46650-51RFX%2F&qs=ukCXrI%2FP3JRTsXHF491B7Q%3D%3DThese are the proper terminators correct. I see some for half watt some for 1 watt but i get these cheap from a local person.I assume like a resistor which they are wattage just for any type of heat dissipation. I just bought 6 tee's of the same brand for 13$ shipped which i think was a good deal.

author: uvamosk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 04:10:04 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 30, 2016, 01:46:04 pmThats what I hope for, i know its spec range of frequencies and so on but they dont directly parallels that of can so i figure if i can use a scope to see how its communicating frequency number of bits in a packet so on. Then i can use the can shield to decode it since I'll know what to look for with it. Does that sound right.Im hoping once i get the scope im going to start a thread on here to post up what i find and for people to give me guidance since it will all be new to me.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 05:13:45 pm
content: When dealing with CAN it is nice to also have to have a working adapter and some decent software to show & filter messages. I'm using the Lawicell CANUSB and CAN monitor pro software (https://www.antratek.com/usb-can-adapter). It isn't very cheap though.

author: uvamosk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 05:40:21 pm
content: You have experience with can bus decoding i take it?Im trying to figure out Toyota's Bean system. It was used in the early 2000's on celica, corolla, camry and Mr2.Im wanting to understand how to decode and inject code into the network.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 07:00:24 pm
content: Quote from: uvamosk on October 30, 2016, 05:40:21 pmI suggest you start a new post with "Toyota Bean" in the title, and use all the space in the title

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 06:07:39 am
content: Quote from: uvamosk on October 30, 2016, 12:35:23 pmAlternate trigger, as used here, means that the scope alternates the "trigger channel" between all channels in use, so that signals with unrelated frequencies can be displayed stably. The DS1054z does not have this capability. External triggering is different. Most 2 channel scopes have an external trigger input which allows you to trigger the scope from a different signal than the two that are displayed. Many 4-channel scopes don't have an external trigger input so you have to use one of the 4 normal channels for triggering. This effectively makes it a 3 channel scope with external triggering....As far as high quality terminators... sure, get the best quality you can afford. The normal cost of the Rigol thru-terminator adapter is 18 dollars IIRC (I have one) so that sounds like a good deal to me. The Ebay end terminators + BNC T is also a working solution, if everything fits right and holds up well. But a through-terminator (aka adapter) takes up less space and may be easier to work with in practice.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 03:42:54 pm
content: Quote from: uvamosk on October 30, 2016, 12:35:23 pmYes, you can trigger on any of the 4 channels. You don't have to clutter the display with the channel that provides the trigger if you don't want to. The trigger function works whether the channel is displayed or not. This is similar to the more normal trigger on dual channel scopes.Sure, why not just get the adapter at the same time. You might save a few bucks elsewhere but time is money.