STEM panic and opinions - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 01:53:54 am
content: I stumbled on this article on the ieee.org sitehttp://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-mythThe article makes some interesting points but of course the fun thing with quoting statistics is that sometimes it's not about the numbers you publish but about the numbers you don't.The article seems to go against the "mainstream" rant of "we don't have enough engineers". (At least here in the US).What do you think?

author: fivefish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 03:00:34 am
content: What we don't have enough of are.... jobs.... permanent jobs.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 10:18:14 am
content: Quote from: DimitriP on August 25, 2015, 01:53:54 amHere in EU, there's an enormous inflation of the value of such degrees.Most of the jobs offerings I get in the mail are polished-up sececretary jobs, most of the people I know with an engineering degree never even use cosinus or equitations again.They want the best and most educated people, and then give them a lame job, ready for a bore-out.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 11:08:21 am
content: There are quite a lot of technically challenging jobs in the EU, but in some countries the greatest challenge will be surviving on the meager salary.

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 06:32:54 pm
content: Quote from: fivefish on August 25, 2015, 03:00:34 amYou kind of lost me at the end there. I graduated from college as the old social contract between employee and employer, which had been showing cracks for decades, finally crumbled. The transition was very hard on US society, and we are still trying to recover from it, but that doesn't mean that we should return to it.I think a more flexible / adaptable economy is probably a better goal. We'll need enough jobs though, and one way or another the benefits of productivity improvements will need to be widely distributed, rather than highly concentrated, so that people can afford the goods and services that don't yield as much to productivity improvements -- things like health care and education, including formal or self-directed continuing education needed to adapt on an ongoing basis.I think the current "STEM crisis" is, in part, as the author suggests, a recurrence of a long running hysteria. I think there are other factors though, many of which the author touches on. Talk of a crisis helps justify H1B visas, encourages more money for STEM education, and encourages more students to study STEM fields. In the absence of an actual shortfall, this exerts downward pressure on wages.I think there are also considerable gaps between STEM education and the job market. Education needs to strike a good balance between, on the one-hand short-term marketable skills, and on the other hand, cultivating general skills and capacity for lifelong learning. Its a difficult balance to strike, but I think for bachelors degrees and beyond, the balance should be strongly towards the latter. The downside though is there are still large gaps to be filled, and I think that too many employers have been able to shirk their responsibility in bridging that gap, either by providing training, high enough industrywide salaries to support employees training themselves, or support for outside training programs. Instead, many complain that universities aren't churning out enough STEM graduates, or aren't teaching enough marketable skills. They lobby to cut funding for higher education, and demand curriculum changes in exchange for not pushing for further cuts, then their forecasts of their own workforce needs are off in one direction or another, leading them to complain, again, and the cycle repeats.Coming at it from the other direction, I see that many STEM grads, and under or unemployed STEM workers, don't have any clue about the applicability of their skill set outside whatever their previous focus was. I'm not entirely sure why this is and how to address it. I suspect that some of it is due to narrowness of STEM education in another dimension, one that doesn't do enough to help people think critically about language, culture, politics, art, etc. That's not all of it though. I do though resist the impulse to put too much responsibility on individuals. They can't know know what they don't know, and so have a difficult time even identifying where they have gaps. Also, on their own, they often lack the financial wherewithal to stumble around and make enough mistakes to start figuring things out for themselves.So, I guess, I think what's missing are the conditions that make a "free" labor market more viable for individuals and society at large.

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 06:55:38 pm
content: Quote from: Galenbo on August 25, 2015, 10:18:14 amSo, I don't want to pick on Galenbo, but I think this is kind of an example of what I was saying about the narrowness of a lot of STEM education.I don't think Galenbo is alone in regarding many "non-technical" jobs with a sense of superiority and contempt (assuming I'm not reading too much into the term "polished-up secretary jobs" and "lame."They may not be your ideal job, and that's fine, but just because you don't think its for you, 1) doesn't mean you actually understand their job, and 2) doesn't mean its easy, or lame, boring or unnecessary. Also, its really rare that anyone loves everything about their work -- that's why there is the old cliche "that's why it's called 'work'"There are a lot of roles where people don't spend their days using a cosine, or doing equations that are still better done by people with a strong technical background. There are also a lot of roles that would benefit from someone who can do a rigorous quantitative analysis from time to time that are done by people who have no idea that such a thing is possible, or why it would be desirable. And engineers who can communicate well with people outside their discipline? Potentially unstoppable, in a good way.None of which is to say that there aren't/shouldn't be good roles for someone who just wants to be heads down, but how about a little respect for the other people who make that focus possible?

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 01:36:25 pm
content: Quote from: eas on August 28, 2015, 06:55:38 pmDon't assume I make assumptions.Been there, done that. Employer asks Engineering degree+expierience, the job turns out to be something that everyone can do, I guess they were just collecting titles for their company. What they called "training" turned out to be scolar-level product promotion.Don't assume I am the only one in that case in my region.Quote from: eas on August 28, 2015, 06:55:38 pmdon't install a false dilemma. Define "communicate well" and ignore my posts if you mean "talking scam sales bullshit".Quote from: eas on August 28, 2015, 06:55:38 pmI do not understand what you say here. Can you say it in a kind of english without local expressions?Quote from: eas on August 28, 2015, 06:55:38 pmAre you playing moral high minority victim now? We already have such a guy on this forum.I don't think you can beat him.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 02:08:56 pm
content: Quote from: Galenbo on August 25, 2015, 10:18:14 amWhat you need are entrepreneurs that will be able to translate the engineering talents in your country to money. Or just be one yourself and create jobs for others.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 02:33:53 pm
content: The STEM problem is real - not so much that there aren't enough engineers, but that the rest of high school and college graduates not focusing on a technical discipline are totally STEM illiterate.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 03:05:57 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on August 31, 2015, 02:33:53 pmOh definitely. I know very little about medicine and drugs but compared to those in charge of those policies I'm a bloody expert. It's bloody disgusting they are proud of their ignorance and not even willing to do some reading to remedy it.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 11:29:22 am
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on August 31, 2015, 02:33:53 pm+1Proud of knowing nothing about "maker industry".Before: "industry", but one of the tactics is undermining terms, like "adding value", "profession", "expert", "useful", "fair", "proven" ...

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 11:33:50 am
content: Quote from: zapta on August 31, 2015, 02:08:56 pmTrue, but I think it's the region that is the cause. Too close to Brussels-EU-bureaucracy here.De-facto forbidden to do an unsibsidized technical startup here, not only for me, for everyone.60-100 km from here (depends on the direction) things are very different.Sometimes I wish I was a little more asocial so I could move to there.

author: Rupunzell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 06:30:07 am
content: Earlier this year, had lunch with a friend who is chemistry professor from Germany. They wanted to do a start up company to produce food flavors using enzymes. They had a LOT of problem obtaining the base enzymes from the US due to German regulations, beyond that they laws, bureaucracy and availability of funding made it impossible to continue. That little company dies as a result of all these factors combined. This appear to be a common occurrence in the EU.Here in the US, what most technical folks many not realize is investors and those who fund this techno stuff are often only interested in return on their investment. It does not really matter what the techno widget is, it must produce and is expected to produce HUGE returns on their investment in the short term. Long term is often not considered. This belief and ideology has absolutely DRIVEN technology is the wrong way IMO.Adding to this problem, companies are often not willing to train-apprentice new talent-hires as they are often concerned that trade secrets and specific technologies that makes them special are going to disappear sooner than later with their new hire. This is what has become of the techno world in Silicon Valley (Silly Valley).Know the bean counters, investors and CEO's are often the ones who decide which projects are going to be funded and which one die, They often decide much of the designs contents and design goals... often driven by cost and profitability and market share. This mostly fixes what engineering and related technical folks get to work on and drives the uni's to produce specific graduates to meet these needs (consider how many pulse engineers are around today and what it was like in the past). Once these technical folks are used up and done, they are often tossed out like a used paper towel.Engineering and technology was not always this way. watch this video about Bill & Dave's hp. It illustrates why hp once produce what they did while providing a good and long term supportive environment for those who worked there and the community they all shared. Much the same applies to Tektronix who created the Silicon Forest in Oregon.The number of companies that were founded by ex Fairchild, Ampex, hewlett packard folks are not small.Never to be forgotten should be professor Fred Terman at Stanford who is considered the father of Silicon Valley. He was the one who encouraged his students to start companies rather than go work for established companies as a viable option.For those with the interest and the time, watch this video about the history of SV:BerniceQuote from: Galenbo on September 01, 2015, 11:33:50 am