Guess the Batteriser IC? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Jay_Diddy_B
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 03:22:47 am
content: Hi,On the Batteriser IGG campaign you can find this photograph:I think the breadboard on the left is some kind of test load.If I zoom in on the board I see:The circuit will be something like this:There are two caps, two resistors, one unlabelled part (the inductor?) and the IC.The board would be 14mm in diameter, to match a AA cell. The chip is 2mm x 2mm 6pin DFN with a power pad.The LTC2536 parts would fit this footprinthttp://www.linear.com/product/LTC3526L-2But these parts can not deliver any thing like enough current:Does anybody know of a part that would work ?Regards,Jay_Diddy_B

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 05:14:19 am
content: They claimed they were making custom silicon, but that makes me wonder if companies like Linear and TI with all their experience can't make a high-current, ultra-low input voltage boost converter, what can the Batteriser guys do...?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 05:30:41 am
content: Quote from: amyk on August 27, 2015, 05:14:19 amBob claims that he reduced the iphone charger by 50% so he might know a thing or two about it. So far no one has contended that he can't miniaturize the circuitry but we'll have to wait to see what it's capable of in miniaturization. The problem is the 8x yield claimed.But one thing they didn't address is that most devices use cells in series, so as soon as one is depleted the device is likely to stop working, and no one is going to test which cells still have juice left so the ecofriendly thing goes out the window because that's probably the cause why so many batteries are disposed with a lot of charge left, just because everyone would replace them all instead of trying to figure out which one is dead.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 05:54:40 am
content: Didn't they say the device could deliver something like 1A? The LTC3526 you linked struggles to deliver 100mA from about 1V input.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 06:04:27 am
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on August 27, 2015, 05:54:40 amIIRC they said the device could deliver whatever the battery could deliver...Just pie in the sky if you ask me.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 06:32:09 am
content: Quote from: Mr.B on August 27, 2015, 06:04:27 amOf course it is. Short out a AA battery and see what it's capable of providing. It's many amps.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 06:40:19 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 27, 2015, 06:32:09 amYes Dave...There is a video somewhere on this forum demonstrating more than 7 amps short circuit current on a typical AA.EDIT: IIRC...

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 07:12:43 am
content: Also, many surprisingly stupid devices like clapping monkeys may really NEED all those amps to start up. This is a real problem for "joule thieves".I wouldn't be surprised if their monkey didn't work with their own device.Many of you seem to somehow expect that they play at least some sort of fair game. But they are scammers, so they can be scammers till the end. The product may just be casing, not providing any current or voltage whatsoever. Or they may very well use a converter capable of 100 mA, and claim much more. That's what they do anyway.As they areconfirmedto lie on almost every aspect that you can confirm, why wouldn't you expect them to lie on everything else, too? Scammers scam! Is this news to someone?Does someone really believe in custom IC claims? Like really? With all those set-up-for-filming hobby level lab pictures and all false science, they could produce an IC? And why would the need to? They can just claim they do.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 07:57:12 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on August 27, 2015, 05:30:41 amNot even sure what that means. He says "original" charger. Is that the mains to 5V brick? Or the PMIC IC? The PMICs in the first iPhones were made by Linear (LTC4066 or LTC4088), the current ones are made by Dialog.Maybe he did manage to make the power brick smaller, but I highly doubt there's some custom IC in there. Seems more a mechanical problem rather than a "this IC doesn't exist" problem.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 09:35:09 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on August 27, 2015, 07:12:43 amI wish people would stop using the term Joule Thief", it's not the correct term. A Joule Thief is a circuit designed to exact energy from almost dead cells, at very low currents.The Batteriser is a basic boost converter, not a Joule Thief.QuoteI have no reason to doubt it. Dr Bob has experience in this fieldhttp://www20.csueastbay.edu/directory/profiles/mcs/roohparvarfarzan.html

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 10:07:24 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 27, 2015, 09:35:09 amThe expertise shown on that page seems to be all digital systems design. It doesn't look very relevant to power electronics.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 10:24:46 am
content: Quote from: Mr.B on August 27, 2015, 06:40:19 amNot on this forum but quick Googling indicates others have measured >10A from a standard AA alkaline. Adocument that Batteriser themselves have linked toshows room-temperature internal resistance around 0R15, which is 10A with 1.5V across it. As the battery heats up internally, it goes down and current may go up even more...NiCd and NiMH AAs can supply several tens of amps short circuited. I wonder how the Batteriser will handle a short.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 10:45:30 am
content: Quote from: amyk on August 27, 2015, 10:24:46 amLike a very expensive fuse.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 10:53:43 am
content: Or a psu on CC mode (if designed to last).Alexander.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 11:02:32 am
content: Dimensions could be extrapolated from this image.Alexander.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 04:06:52 pm
content: I wonder how they connect the stainless steel sleeve to the PCB? Stainless is a pain in the arse to solder, you need aggressive acid fluxes etc.

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 04:15:01 pm
content: Maybe its crimped in the board...?Maybe its cooper coated easy soldering?Maybe its just a fake at all, is this batteriser thing got in anyone hands?

author: SaabFAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 11:30:12 pm
content: They promise to deliver by November 2015. So until december they enjoy the benefit of the doubt. If after that there is no device to be tested by independent labs, they're scammers, enjoying the money they got^^

author: richfiles
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 12:53:11 am
content: Quote from: Mr.B on August 27, 2015, 06:40:19 amThat 6-8 inch tall mushroom cloud I saw on my bed that one time I tossed a fresh battery holder with 4 AAs in it aside, and it shorted out on landing... Yeaaah...One or more of the batteries overheated and popped the seal... It was at the tail end of an all nighter, and the cat was bugging me. I turned to yell at the cat, and at that EXACT moment, I witness the battery go poof, see the mushroom cloud... and decide it's time for me to go to bed!Kitty was just warning me that something smelled funny... Good kitty.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 02:02:25 pm
content: Quote from: Mr.B on August 27, 2015, 06:04:27 amThis is possible if there is also a diode between the battery and the output.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 04:56:21 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on August 28, 2015, 02:02:25 pmA lossless diode with zero forward voltage, combined with a zero resistance inductor for the boost converter.

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 05:06:54 pm
content: Well, devices like batteriser will certainly fit very well perfect components, since this product is dreamland.

author: DanielS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 05:48:59 pm
content: Quote from: mikerj on August 28, 2015, 04:56:21 pmA synchronous rectifier might not be quite lossless but for 5A/2V, you can probably find a suitable device with 1mOhm RDSon. Since this thing would also need to operate at more than 2MHz switching frequency to use components this small, a 2-3µH inductor with less than 10mOhm resistance is not far-fetched either. That would give it an hypothetical efficiency of about 95% before accounting for switching losses.

author: jaxbird
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 06:06:14 pm
content: This custom chip they have designed could become very interesting for fpgas and asics, it's very small form factor for 10A+ current capability and extremely high efficiency.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 12:45:25 am
content: Quote from: richfiles on August 28, 2015, 12:53:11 amNever underestimate cats, they are smart and twisted animals. But they have a very complex character, they are difficult to understand.- My Siamese female cat:* She bitted both mother and me and complained with noises because we were complaining in a rude way. She wanted to end the conflict!* She always waked me up to go to school, helping my mother at it.* She's 16yo and looks young and pretty, never had an illness until recently in one of her eyes. But she's getting better. I envy her, she must have a good damn genetic (one thing I like of felines is that they have a very short elderly).My weird adult but kitty looking female cat is damn smart and agile.- She's able to enter at any room.- She prefer humans than their own, but she didn't like a friend of my mother that was in home for over six months and attacked her all time since first day!* She was right, that woman is fucking insane and annoying, even eating tons of food and never helped at home (she was a Facebook junkie).- She's able to make most humans friendly to her, even those don't like cats.

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 04:59:04 am
content: Guys you all sound crazy, hold on the beer!

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 08:32:23 am
content: Quote from: mikerj on August 28, 2015, 04:56:21 pmI think they never said that output voltage is still 1.5V with current as high as 1A or more.Inductor resistance does not mather.See schematic.

author: Jay_Diddy_B
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 09:37:58 am
content: Hi Oldway and the group,In their 'BS baffles brains' video they use a current probe to show that the current drawn by a digital camera peaks around 1A and furthermore the camera's under voltage latch is triggered when the voltage first crosses the threshold. This is the whole snail 5 paces forward, 4 steps back argument.With a diode, or even an ideal diode in the position that you have shown, would allow the output to drop below the UVLO threshold. The output voltage will be lower than the battery voltage and the UVLO threshold will be crossed.One of the purposes of the Boost regulator is to isolate the load from the battery ESR.I am placing my bets, from the size of the components that will fit in the space and available ICs, that the Batteriser will work as a boost to currents of 50 - 100mA.We will see.Jay_Diddy_B

author: Godzil
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 11:22:00 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on August 27, 2015, 05:30:41 amyeah the Chinese are really good a reducing the iPhone charger by 50% or even more, just look at the teardown made on the two chinese ripoff.....

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 11:15:21 am
content: @Jay_Diddy_B: Did you not understood that 90% of their "BS baffles brains" video is bullshit ?http://batteriser.com/videos/1) From 8'17" to 9'41' : "Let's look at how to calculate the remaining energy in a battey under constant current load" : that's almost wrong and against the basic laws of conservation of energy and basic notions of power and energy.If you use a boost converter to increase the voltage to 1.5V, current in the battery is greater than in the load.If you have a 100mA constant current load, you don't have a constant current drained from the battery. This current will be far higher than 100mA and will increase when battery voltage drop.You can't use the 100mA battery descharge curve in this case.The remaining energy is the integral from T1 to T2 of the power, i.e. the current times the instantaneous voltage.Thats indeed the area below the curve he designed at 8'40".The current is constant, the formula becomes: the remaining energy equals the current (here 100 mA) times the integral from T1 to T2 of the voltage U (dt).T1 = cut offT2 = end of descharge of the battery = lower input voltage of the boost converter.Remaining energy is still smaller than what he showed at the beginning of the explanation as current is higher than 100 mA and therefore losses in the ESR are higher.According to his later explanation, the converter would produce energy....that's bullshit !2) Most of the devices have an almost constant consumption without large current variations. They have electrolytics capacitors to absorb peak current consumption.It's not recommanded to use commun AA batteries with devices with 500mA or more peak current consumption. Internal resistance is too high.It is better to use rechargeable batterieswho have a lower internal resistance.3) Most of the device have only a low battery indication, not a low voltage latch.4) Low voltage threshold is more often 1V instead of 1.1V as shown.5) For a lot of devices, battery voltage does not matter at all, as toys for example.6) It seems not possible to make a such small boost converter who should be able to feed a 1A peak current at 1.5V.7) If the load use a linear voltage regulator working down to 1.1V, it is not a good deal to feed the load with 1.5V...It would be far more energy saving to feed it with 1.2V or 1.15V