BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2020, 01:39:21 pm
content: So it looks very much like there will be no deal between the UK and the EU.Thought I'd start a thread to pragmatically discuss/help/suggest how this will affect small electronic releated manufacturers when it comes to importing/exporting from the UK.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2020, 02:02:57 pm
content: Some resources:HTS (Harmonised Tarriff Schedule)https://hts.usitc.gov/currentThis is really useful, and found it easier to look up HTS codes than some other sites.WTO Tarriffhttp://tariffdata.wto.org/UK GOVhttps://www.gov.uk/topic/business-tax/import-exportImport into GB from EUhttps://www.gov.uk/prepare-to-import-to-great-britain-from-january-2021Export from GB to EUhttps://www.gov.uk/prepare-to-export-from-great-britain-from-january-2021If you import/export you'll almost definitely need an EORI.Also worth pointing out that there is likely to be different rules for some businesses in Northern Ireland (NI) as they share a border with Ireland (IRL) which is still in the European Union (EU).So just to explain for the uninitiated:United Kingdom (UK) is Great Britain (GB) and North Ireland (NI).Great Britain (GB) is England, Scotland and Wales.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 06:40:07 am
content: Quote from: fcb on December 11, 2020, 02:02:57 pmUK and GB legally it is two different countries?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 11:35:42 am
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on December 12, 2020, 06:40:07 amThat's far too simple.As someone that dislikes yootoob videos, I recommend this short information-dense explanation:Confused? You will be!

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 11:45:26 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 12, 2020, 11:35:42 amSo I was taught incorrectly at school London is the capital of Great Britain? From this very fluent English, I understood that Great Britain is the name of an island, not a country.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 12:38:32 pm
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on December 12, 2020, 11:45:26 amKind of, yes, UK is four nations, England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, GB is England, Wales and Scotland.https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/blog/2011/08/whats-the-difference-between-uk-britain-and-british-isles/Each UK country has their own capital city, Wales, Scoland and Northern Ireland have their own governments which have certain powers devolved from Westminster, London, so London is the capital of the UK and England but not the capital of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.Each nation's government has "local" governance of devolved matters and they send representatives to Westminster to sit in parliament to deal with non devolved powers that affect all four nations.It's a big old mess and there are increasingly strong movements for independence from England in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.Those three nations have had independence movements for many years and Brexit has made them even stronger, Northern Ireland and Scotland voted quite heavily in favour of remaining EU members so Brexit may be the thing which breaks up the UK and causes reunification of Ireland and Northern Ireland as well as some serious violence between the opposing factions.Wales voted for Brexit (by a smaller margin than England) but has long had an independence movement which has also grown stronger since the Brexit vote.Basically Brexit has not only driven a wedge between UK and EU, it's driven a wedge between the four countries of the UK and it seems to be getting worse.It's a complete clusterfuck.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 12:59:09 pm
content: Amid RHA and Bifa concerns about the lack of progress, HMRC, Defra, the HO, the Dft, the BPDG and the TTF are building up IT systems for post-Brexit GB-EU trade and particularly for RoRo at Dover-Calais which will involve exporters submitting import/export declarations to Chief and the CDS, S&S information to S&S GB and ICS, and collating their SPS documentation - including an EHC filled out by an CSO under the supervision of an OV sent via a BCP - with the importer lodging it on Traces NT, while generating a GMR via GVMS and SI Brexit, and then HGVs getting a KAP, all to avoid the RWCS.Any the wiser

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 01:05:31 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on December 12, 2020, 12:38:32 pmIndeed, and for UK's adversary(ies) POV ... things look better say compared to a decade ago.Uncle Sam also started this similar trend about 4 years ago ... and still going strong.Words like "divide & conquer" automatically pop out in our mind when seeing the condition, isn't it ?cmiiw

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 01:26:48 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 12, 2020, 12:59:09 pmYou're not enhancing this threadIt was my intention (as in road-to-hell) to post some useful information here, and perhaps have others post their thoughts, questions, links and advice.The situation in the UK is the very definition of CLUSTERFUCKhttps://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/clusterfuck

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 01:30:52 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 12, 2020, 12:59:09 pm

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 02:39:48 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 12, 2020, 01:26:48 pmAnd minutes by minutes, its like you Brits are deliberately increasing the tension, instead of trying to dilute it, really don't understand why ?Example ->... British naval forces will be deployed from January 1 to prevent illegal French fishing in our waters

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 02:55:34 pm
content: I heard that fishing is <0.1% of UK GDP. But something like 1-2% of the EU GDP. We have virtually no fishing fleet here in the UK, most of the UK waters are fished by huge companies out of The Netherlands, France, etc.. so it's a big old bargaining chip for Boris.Friends of mine involved in marine technology say that they are constantly asked by EU colleagues about what will happen to fishing and the UK - they all seem alot more bothered about it than most UK people. As the fisheries protection chaps only have two boats to patrol the UK's vast waters then obviously the armed forces will be used to try and stop illegal activity, no doubt ratcheted up by The Daily Mail etc.. and then the French farmers will blockade Calais and we'll be forced to eat our own Cheddar, Caerphilly and Lamb.In time more pragmatic minds will prevail and some brightspark will suggest joining a trading block in Europe?

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 03:07:02 pm
content: Question for the British that attend this forum:Do you think that, historically speaking, this will be a watershed moment for the UK?Watershed in the full meaning of the word. A Trafalgar moment.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 03:45:29 pm
content: Why do these crazy governments appear everywhere, constantly fighting and pitting people against each other? That they don't live in peace? All these borders, possessions, the army - these are the wild times of the past. After all, it is good to be in a single Union without borders, without customs, with the same money. Probably, European officials have tortured everyone with their mediocrity and uselessness - they are paid money but they do nothing but stupid shows about enemies all around. I know this very well from the structure of the USSR.Now we have a union of several countries: Belarus, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan = Eurasian Economic Community. We live in one country in past, now we are all independent countries, each has its own currency and its own power, but we have no borders, we share the same laws to a large extent. This is very convenient: I can safely go to Minsk and even live there without fear of ignorance of the law, I can safely sell products in any country as well as at home. There is some tiny shared power, but it is invisible, does not interfere with anyone, does not command anyone, only coordinates various interactions. Yes, and all under the protection of the Russian army. Imagine all the countries in such a Union.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:03:35 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 12, 2020, 02:55:34 pmFishing = £762 millionFinancial services = £133,000 million.Of course it's all about the fish and not the financial services market. Agenda much?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:03:49 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 12, 2020, 11:35:42 amEven the explanation in that video misses some important points. Like the UK government itself struggles with these distinctions. Its only very recently that the British Prime Minister started to consistently sign international agreements as the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, or the Prime Minister of the UK. There are lots of documents into the middle of the 20th century which were signed by the Prime Minister of England. Notably, this might have lead Hitler to think he never agreed not to invade Scotland, Wales, or Northern Ireland, and certainly was OK to take over the Channel Islands, which he did.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:05:37 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on December 12, 2020, 03:07:02 pmNo, probably the exact opposite of Trafalgar.I think the UK will spend the next X years getting our butts kicked by the EU power mongers. I hope I'm wrong, but think we will have to fight very hard to maintain straightforward access to the EU; somewhere I read that we import more from the EU than we export to the EU so there are some powerful allies in Europe that might help moderate the 'battle'.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:11:23 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 12, 2020, 04:03:35 pmVery very few give a flying toss about bankers. But take the image of a Cornish fisherman hauling an empty net and you'll find a queue a mile long ready to take up arms.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:12:58 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 12, 2020, 04:05:37 pmThere might be other allies in the EU. EU interests now own so much of the UK's infrastructure, they will probably want to see use of that infrastructure remaining vigorous.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:15:53 pm
content: Cant understand why doris +co are so fixated on fishing,even if we get to own the waters the rights to fish those waters have already been sold,by british fishermen to foreign investors.Then theirs the 50 fishermen nipping over from bruges waving a bit of paper signed by charley 2

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:19:16 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on December 12, 2020, 02:39:48 pmI suspect it's a desperate power play in the hopes of getting the EU to move before the time runs out. I don't think there are very many options left so making a lot of noise in the hopes the EU will budge is all one can do. It's probably also some window dressing for the folks at home to show a Brexit means independence. Anything to distract from what looks to be a disaster in the making as a few French fishermen aren't a threat to Britain's future.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:19:41 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 11, 2020, 02:02:57 pmI wonder how willing the EU will be to keep the special deal for NI alive in a hard brexit without EUCJ jurisdiction over the UK. They clearly want the level playing field provision to be the EU version of the US commerce clause, which would make the UK's sovereignty a bit of a joke.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:24:04 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 12, 2020, 04:15:53 pmI had an interesting conversation about that the other day. My understanding is that many years ago if you had a X metre trawler you were granted a license for Y tonnes of fish, these permissions where essentially the value came from, not the boat. These permissions where sold by trawler owners to large EU companies who then used them. In essence these permissions can be rescinded, reassigned etc.. as the Crown/UK gov sees fit - they weren't actually sold by the Crown.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:30:24 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 12, 2020, 04:19:16 pmAll well run negotiations end up as a game of chicken near the final deadline. The UK parliament tried to wreck Britain's ability to negotiate by committing them to definitely agreeing on a deal. How can anyone negotiate when they know the other side's hands are tied? I don't think that is because they are traitorous or malicious. Its just that parliament is full of people who have never done a days real work in their lives, and have never had to negotiate anything.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:32:09 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 12, 2020, 04:11:23 pmIndeed yes. The funny bit is only a tiny amount of them are actually bankers. It’s more everyone’s assets, investments and debts which people decided to piss around with.All it takes is one pension or mortgage company to go and I’ll be pissing myself laughing at the self serving karma.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:37:38 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 12, 2020, 04:30:24 pmThe disparity between what the EU and the UK stand to lose without a deal means playing chicken is a fool's errant. To negotiate you need leverage and the UK had little and stupid games reduced it even further. When threatening French fishermen is what you have left things aren't going your way.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:43:12 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on December 12, 2020, 02:39:48 pmDeploying the navy plays well with a certain demographic in England - the same demographic that is targeted by Murdoch's fine publications.Juncker said it best, right after the referendum:"If you over years, if not decades, tell citizens that something is wrong with the EU, that the EU is too technocratic, too bureaucratic, you cannot be taken by surprise if voters believe you."

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:47:04 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 12, 2020, 04:37:38 pmThat's the same rhetoric I've heard around every negotiation I've been involved with. The larger party clearly has things to lose if they are bothering to negotiate with the smaller. The number of a sales people with Tourettes I've seen wreck the profitability of a deal with their uncontrollable urge to say "we'll cut the price" is really sad.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:49:25 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 12, 2020, 04:37:38 pmIn a game of chicken it's not about what you have to lose, but about force of will ... as long as the other party has something to lose and believes you will not budge, then it is rational for him to do so.In a game of chicken the least rational can win, even if he has more to lose.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:49:32 pm
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on December 12, 2020, 03:45:29 pmThis kind of thing is probably the long term future of all human society on Earth - but there are many people for whom this is a big mental leap and they will resist it and/or feel very uncomfortable with it for many generations still.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:52:36 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 12, 2020, 04:47:04 pmExactly, and those are precisely the kind of people we don't want in the Single Market to create a race to the bottom.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:58:46 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on December 12, 2020, 04:49:25 pmHence the threats adressed at French fishermen. The UK knows at this point the EU is unlikely to budge. The only real incentive the EU seems to have is to show exiting the union doesn't come with special treatment and that's no help.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 05:03:32 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 12, 2020, 04:19:16 pmAt last minutes of dealing something, the last thing you want is to show your weakness in form of desperation. This is universal knowledge and you don't need to master art of dealing/bargaining to know that.Also when dealing/bargaining, you are alone (UK) facing the mobs (EU), at last minute, again, the last thing you want to do is to make a threat or even a gesture of hostility towards one of the big member of the mobs (France) ... c'mon ...PS :Unless this is the plan to turn all of this into a bad sitcom ... news headlines ... NATO member attacking NATO member .... and Putin will live happily ever after.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 05:26:29 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on December 12, 2020, 02:39:48 pmIt's a load of rubbish, an empty threat that's already being discredited by people in the idiot Johnson's own party:https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-irresponsible-threat-to-deploy-navy-ships-criticised-amid-standoff-over-uk-eu-trade-deal-12158759He's just playing to the cheap seats so when it all falls apart tomorrow he can come back home and claim he tried to play it tough and that it was really all his idea to not get a deal but the big bad EU bullied him, that'll make him some sort of hero to the kind of moron who still believes Brexit will be some sort of glorious victory over 'them foreigners'.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 05:36:49 pm
content: I read about brexit here and I am more and more convinced that the EU was needed first of all so that the Europeans would not fight again.Guys from England, but who chose Johnson? You didn't participate in this?

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 05:40:28 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on December 12, 2020, 05:26:29 pmThough they do it more gracefully, the EU is no different. They were never going to allow a negotiated true Brexit, they were always planning to impose their power through the back door of the ECJ and level playing field provision.It was all just an useless dishonest dance, which could have worked on May but was a lost cause with Johnson. In the end its just some jockying for PR between a bunch of graceful liars and a blustering populist.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 05:53:34 pm
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on December 12, 2020, 05:36:49 pmDemocracy.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 05:59:36 pm
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on December 12, 2020, 03:45:29 pmThe EU is quite different from the USSR, which was an empire, gained through conquest, much like the British Empire. The member states of the EU all agreed to join, of their own free will. They weren't forced join, as was the case with the British Empire, or Russian Empire, which went on the be the USSR.Many countries sharing the the same rules and currency brings a range of benefits, regarding trade and freedom, but it also has downsides too. Getting the EU to change a certain rule is challenging, because it has to be agreed between all member states, which can result in unnecessary delays. A classic example is the COVID-19 vaccine, which was swiftly approved by the UK, but will take awhile for the EU to agree on it. The same rules/currency are only any good when all states have similar levels of wealth and rule of law. The UK is more wealthy and has better rule of law, than many Eastern European EU states, so faces a lot of immigration from there and follows the EU laws more strictly. Immigration is not always a bad thing, but it's one of the reasons why many voted to leave.In my opinion, the EU expanded too quickly. They allowed poorer, Eastern European countries to join too quickly. The reason for this is because they wanted to lessen Russia's influence, over Eastern Europe, which has caused trouble in some places, such as Ukraine.I largely agree that unions of states and trade agreements are good things, but for practical reasons, only strong unions should exist between countries with similar enough levels of prosperity, rule of law and culture. States with larger gaps in wealth and rule of law can have trade agreements, but they should be weaker.Quote from: S. Petrukhin on December 12, 2020, 05:36:49 pmYes, the original intention for having the EU was to put an end to war. The problem is the war has faded from living memory and the EU has engaged in feature creep.I did not vote for Brexit. I backed remain. One of the problems is the vote was won by a small margin. Taking into account for the fact not everyone voted,most of the people in the UK didn't vote to leave. There should have been a clause in the referendum stating that, Brexit would only occur if the majority of those who were eligible, voted to leave. Unfortunately, given that there was no such clause, we must leave the EU and not just in name only, as some politicians want. It's the only way to stop the government from losing any more trust, than it already has.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 06:13:30 pm
content: I regret that the EU has accumulated problems and they are so acute.This is bad for us, and it is good for us to have a strong, stable, calm Europe. And from a pragmatic point of view, we need European consumption of goods, we need European goods.And the destiny of people who will be bad is also sad...

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 06:30:01 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on December 12, 2020, 05:40:28 pmTBH, from my seat in the UK it looks to me like the EU have had the upper hand all along, their negotiating position hasn't really changed but our idiot government has shifted and even gone back on things it's promised so often it's difficult to keep up.The only real constant is the largely symbolic, minority industry of fishing which is likely to be crippled by Brexit because a huge portion of the business relies on being able to trade freely with the EU.Blustering populist is a generous description of Johnson, mine is likely to get me a forum ban.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 06:30:40 pm
content: QuoteThere was a higher turnout for the brexit vote at 72.2%, than any general election since 1992

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 06:32:43 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 12, 2020, 05:59:36 pmI think the key problem with the EU is that national governments love their own parochial power too much. They allowed the formation of a democratically elected European Parliament, and quite reasonably gave it very limited initial powers. However, their reluctance to let its power grow steadily has put more and more power in the hands of unelected bodies operating in parallel. So, we are now see the people of the EU are in a position of expanding authoritarian rule.Personally, I think its irrelevant whether Britain is in or out of the EU. The Euro tying interest rates together between the most successful and least successful parts of Europe is causing such tensions that it is, ironically, only the difficulty of freeing themselves from the Euro that is keep several of its members from joining the UK on an exit route.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 06:34:47 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 12, 2020, 05:59:36 pmEU law allows individual member states to give emergency approval for a drug which is precisely how we managed to approve the COVID vaccine as we're still in the transition period and subject to the very EU laws our government have said would prevent us approving the vaccine's use.It's yet more lies and bluster from our own government.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 06:38:17 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 12, 2020, 06:30:40 pmThe margin was still small, that's fact, a large turnout just means more people voted, it doesn't give more or less of a mandate.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 06:49:01 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 12, 2020, 05:53:34 pm"Civilization, in fact, grows more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary."-- HL Mencken - In Defense of Women, 1918

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 06:49:36 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on December 12, 2020, 06:38:17 pmThis is nonsense. A big margin on a low turnout has more to do with how much one side motivated its partisans to be bothered than what the public thinks. A high turnout means the result is at least based on what a great many people think, even if the margin of victory is small. Some local elections have such a low turnout the winner has more to do with which candidate could motivate their family and friends to be bothered, than any grand notion of the will of the people.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 06:52:02 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 11, 2020, 01:39:21 pmThe biggest question is how things are going to be arranged where it comes to certification. For importing / exporting parts I see no problem except for possible import tarifs.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 06:52:32 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 12, 2020, 06:32:43 pmHave you ever talked with people from the Southern European countries? I've never met one that want their Drachmas, Liras, etc., back, but I'm sure they must exist...

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 06:56:11 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 12, 2020, 06:49:36 pmHow does a large turnout increase the percentage margin?Show me the maths and include your workings.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 07:01:45 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on December 12, 2020, 06:56:11 pmThe issue I responded to was "more or less of a mandate", not margins. Getting 99% of the votes of a handful of people does NOT give you a mandate. A low turnout usually shows all the parties are treated with disdain, and the public thinks none of them are worth voting for. I think there is great merit in compulsory voting with an abstain box. I would actually turn out for every election with enthusiasm to tick an abstain box.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 07:03:14 pm
content: There is a perfectly good abstain button. All you have to do is tick all of them.As for the cause and mandate it doesn’t matter if the information provided to the population was lies which it was. In fact I worked for one of the companies employed to see how effective the lies were and which ones to keep lying about. This is something I regret.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 07:13:02 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 12, 2020, 07:01:45 pmYou're confusing mandate with approval.A mandate is a binary thing, one of two discrete values, given or denied, politically undesirable and dangerous to ignore but still, only binary.The number of people who voted doesn't give it more or less authority, it just proves people were motivated and it was still a small margin.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 07:18:20 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on December 12, 2020, 06:30:01 pmThey've always been coy about what they envisioned the enforcement strategy for level playing field to be.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 07:22:41 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on December 12, 2020, 06:34:47 pmThat's not true at all. If it were, then I'm sure many other EU member states would have approved the vaccine by now.Yes, the UK has to follow the EU laws, as it's still in the transition period. The reason why the UK has approved the vaccine is because it has an opt-out, in that area of law. It's true this would have been the case, irrespective of Brexit, but does not negate my point that shared laws can often be a hindrance, as well as an advantage. It illustrates quite nicely one of the downsides of states being bound too tightly together.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 07:26:27 pm
content: winners % of vote % turnout1997 43.2 71.42001 40.7 59.42005 35.2 61.42010 36.1 65.12015 36.8 66.12017 42.3 68.72019 43.6 67.3brexit 51.9 72.2if any body want to do some sums heres the important bits ,by my sums a larger percentage of the electorate voted yes than they have for any prime minister back as far as 1992 at leastNow lets look on the bright side,if were out of the EU does that mean no more eurovision song contest?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 07:45:50 pm
content: Eurovision predates the EU (and will outlast it too). Empires come and go but some things never change

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 07:46:22 pm
content: Bugger!

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 07:50:50 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 12, 2020, 07:22:41 pmNo, it really is true. Look it up.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/04/how-vaccine-approval-compares-between-the-uk-europe-and-the-ushttps://www.ft.com/content/021720c2-157e-40b4-b2f9-33515032fb19

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 08:00:22 pm
content: Quote from: magic on December 12, 2020, 07:45:50 pmNow I'm wondering if the EU states will punish us by making us winhttps://fatherted.fandom.com/wiki/My_Lovely_Horse

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 08:08:59 pm
content: Quote from: magic on December 12, 2020, 07:45:50 pmEurovision is completely unrelated to the EU. It must have pretty much shrunk to be nothing more than a bad singing contest now, though. Does any of the actual Eurovision network still exist?

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 08:11:20 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 12, 2020, 08:08:59 pmThe EBU still very much exists.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 08:14:27 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 12, 2020, 07:03:14 pmThat's just a spoiled ballot. I'm not bothering to create those. I want elections to produce a proper count of people who say "none of the above". I think a high count there would encourage a shift in the political landscape.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 08:16:49 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on December 12, 2020, 08:11:20 pmYes, but that's a standards setting body as much as anything else. If you go to studios in places like the BBC are there still sockets on the wall labelled "Eurovision" where you can connect a monitor and see some program, typically sports, that is being distributed live to various Eurovision members?

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 08:23:28 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 12, 2020, 08:16:49 pmPretty much, yeah, EBU feeds exist on the broadcast satellites and are used by our broadcasting bodies, I don';t know if it's as blatant as a socket on a wall marked EBU though.EBU organises and runs Euroviosion:https://eurovision.tv/about/organisers

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 08:30:33 pm
content: The demographics show that "Older" and "Less Educated" won the day. Sad for anyone that doesn't fit neatly in either of those categories!(This is from 2017)

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 08:30:52 pm
content: So has anyone done any planning for 1st Jan 2021? Stock piled parts, bog roll, camembert?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 08:44:47 pm
content: Yes plenty.Really everyone should have 4 weeks worth of food and stuff in anyway. This just in time society is rather fragile. I know that after being unemployed and hungry a couple of times in my life

author: dave j
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 08:58:51 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 12, 2020, 07:46:22 pmThe Eurovision Song Contest gets high viewing figures and is relatively cheap (when you take into consideration how much air time they get out of it). It's going nowhere. Just be glad we live in a multi-channel/multi-platform world where there is plenty of other stuff to watch instead. I remember the 1970s where it wasfarmore prominent than now.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 09:01:33 pm
content: Quote from: dave j on December 12, 2020, 08:58:51 pmThe 90s were bad enough. There were satellite and cable channels, but we didn't have them back then.Quote from: CJay on December 12, 2020, 07:50:50 pmAlright, I stand corrected. It just goes to show one can't rely on everything the read on the Internet and watch on YouTube.I still think the UK is doing the right thing. The EU seems to be discouraging member states to follow the UK in granting emergency approval, which I think is wrong. I can understand some countries will be more cautious about approving the vaccine, than others, but let them make up their own minds!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 09:02:58 pm
content: Quote from: dave j on December 12, 2020, 08:58:51 pmWe wouldn't have ABBA without it!

author: dave j
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 09:04:44 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 12, 2020, 08:14:27 pmThis. Lumping protest ballots in with those not filled in properly just allows politicians to dismiss them. An explicit 'non of the above' option would make it explicit and be harder to ignore.

author: dave j
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 09:09:27 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 12, 2020, 09:02:58 pmWhilst I choose to not watch it, I don't object to it as a concept as some people seem to do.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 09:12:07 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 12, 2020, 09:01:33 pmOr coming out of the mouths of politicians, in newspapers etc.This is part of the problem with Brexit, so many damn lies which are easy to disprove, nobody here is below average intelligence yet I still see people repeating the same, tired old debunked lies about the EU and the UK, they get into the public consciousness and become unassailable myth.There was a really good website setup to debunk the myths and lies in the UK media, it's archived and difficult to find now but pretty much all the 'EU bad' stories are on there.http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index*edit* better link here:https://wayback.archive-it.org/11980/20191016145012/https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/Quote from: Zero999 on December 12, 2020, 09:01:33 pmDefinitely doing the right thing approving the vaccine, yes.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 10:18:52 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on December 12, 2020, 09:12:07 pmI generally don't believe anything politicians say. I got the thing about the vaccine from a COVID-19 video by a medical YouTuber, who generally isn't political. They obviously got it from elsewhere.That site you've posted is good, but the other bad things such as the tampon tax and the EU commission wasting loads of money relocating are obviously true.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 10:34:41 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 12, 2020, 10:18:52 pmI know little to nothing about tampon tax but dig into the 'relocating' costs and work out how it relates to the cost of running other parliaments, it's enlightening.A little perspective is useful, especially when it comes to money measured in big numbers.

author: nabruxas
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 04:45:18 pm
content: The brexit is the worst, since the music of modern talking.I hope little britain will be back soon.Meanwhile there is time to learn driving the car on the right side and how to cook.The rest is perfect....

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 04:46:58 am
content: BREXIT caused a fair amount of documentation work for us due to changing approval agency offices. We had to change from England* to offices in Ireland and Italy. I haven't heard much of anything about UKIP or whatever it is for additional approval work. I don't know if we are skipping it because England is too small a market to deal with, the customers will just go with EU approvals, or some other solution. Maybe we will go for that also eventually. My conclusion is that some amount of engineering work has now permanently moved from England to the EU, and even if England joins back in that work will stay where it is.* Short for whatever the UK is supposed to be.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 07:15:02 am
content: Quote from: Tomorokoshi on December 14, 2020, 04:46:58 amSadly this seems to be the case, hard won business presences have left the UK or just closed because of Brexit and I don't think they'll come back.There have been a few significant 'wins' which are crowed about by the Brexiters but when you dig into the details it's usually because the plans predated Brexit and it would have been nonsensical to do outside the UK anyway, business 'wins' tend to be 'in spite of' rather than 'because of' Brexit.It's going to be a hard few decades and I think if/when we rejoin the EU we'll have to fully commit, Euro (which I think is idiotic unless taxation etc. are all unified) and all.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 08:39:20 am
content: Quote from: CJay on December 14, 2020, 07:15:02 amI agree Brexit is bad for business, but what's to say there still will be an EU, in a few decades? There are anti-EU movements in other countries too.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 09:31:01 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 14, 2020, 08:39:20 amSo you poked your eyes out when you were in your teens because you might go blind in later life?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 09:46:12 am
content: Quote from: CJay on December 14, 2020, 09:31:01 amWith an assumption that the crystal ball is accurate 100%, not even 99.99999999%.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 09:58:40 am
content: Quote from: CJay on December 14, 2020, 09:31:01 amWhat a silly anology.For one, at no point have I said that Brexit is good. I voted to remain and still think it's the best thing to do, but at the moment it's impossible to do that.Secondly, we don't know what will happen. Brexit, might not be as bad, as I thought.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 10:24:28 am
content: Self harming because something might happen in the future is a silly analogy for Brexiting and damaging our economy because the EU might not exist in the future?Hmm.From the current events being reported in the news and having watched the past 4 years of this I'd have to agree that it's probably not going to be as bad as I thought, it's probably going to be worse.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 11:08:17 am
content: I too agree that BREXIT won't be as bad as people think (also voted remain), but that's probably an avergage thing. In the event of a no-deal final exit, there will be extreme cases of businesses and some industries decimated by WTO terms (immediate example is lamb exports being subject to 47% tariff).The EU commision be will be desperate to make sure BREXIT is seen as painful as possible to depower other ??EXIT movements in the EU. So my guess is that this drama will go on for years and years.According to this report the UK has a trade deficit with the EU of some £79 billion, and if you strip out finincial services it's £97 billion. So there is substantial risk to the EU as well, although that is spread across the EU, some members (Germany and France) could certainly see a sizable impact.https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7851/

author: SerieZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 11:15:04 am
content: Quote from: CJay on December 14, 2020, 10:24:28 amYes, UK is going to die from Starvation and the great EU is going to be the best thing ever.Dear God, Let it rain brain on the Bureaucrats and their loyal cattle.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 11:18:45 am
content: We're only 50% self sufficient on the food front. We will be starving by August. A lot of us are already starving thanks to the massive poverty in some parts of the country.This was just quite frankly a fucking stupid idea from end to end.The EU is not the best thing ever. It's just less bad than the alternatives. But you don't go playing chess by shitting on the board and claiming victory, you play it one piece at a time.

author: SerieZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 12:28:30 pm
content: I have a had a lifetime experience from outside Eu and dealing with them.Sorry, but I don't take such doomsday conspiracies too seriously.You can be happy of the useless baggage you got rid off and with a little bit of good luck the EU can get rid of its own and become what it was intended to be in the beginning.Honestly to me this exemplifies everything that is wrong with the EU to begin with, a bunch of Bureaucrats who think they are too big to fail.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 03:05:15 pm
content: Quote from: SerieZ on December 14, 2020, 12:28:30 pmSwitzerland has so many agreements in place with the EU that it is as close to being an EU member as it is possible to get, while still being able to claim they are not... at the cost of massively increased bureaucracy.I'm not understanding the point you are trying to make?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 03:44:42 pm
content: Quote from: nabruxas on December 13, 2020, 04:45:18 pmYeah right. UK restaurants with 1 or more Michelin stars - 156, Austrian restaurants with 1 or more Michelin stars - 19. Looks like you boys need to come to the UK for some cooking lessons.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 03:49:33 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 14, 2020, 08:39:20 amThere seem to be anti-EU movements because people live in their EU bubble and have short enough memories to forget how Europe was before. Apparently people get complacent without a thorn in their side to make them remember. Bloody humans eh?

author: SerieZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 04:25:11 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 14, 2020, 03:05:15 pmSwitzerland has so many agreements in place with the EUYesthat it is as close to being an EU member as it is possible to getIf by being almost an EU Member you mean being bullied into accepting policies every X Years which more often than not violate promises made by the EU towards Switzerland so to get us to sign them in the first place, sure.at the cost of massively increased bureaucracy.At least I know that my tax, unlike the average EU Citizen closely to 50% Income Tax + 17% something tax on products, does not go to some fat suit in Brussels to implement laws which fuck me over on a daily basis while sipping champagne and going to brothels.BTW, Yes, I remember times before the EU, and Yes I also like some things of the EU - like Visa free travel and the such, but at some point the line has to be drawn on what amount of power you want to give to such an out of touch Institution. To me it has gone out of Hand since the Euro, what a mess that did to Southern Europe.I think the only people in a bubble are the people delusional to think centralization is the solution.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 04:29:50 pm
content: Just think how much better off Switzerland would be if it had fish and a Navy.

author: SerieZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 04:47:33 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 14, 2020, 04:29:50 pmYou would be surprised at the amount of ships going under the Swiss flag on International Sea.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 05:05:28 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 14, 2020, 03:49:33 pmNeed another war just to remind people how fragile shit is...That's how it usually goes!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 05:16:14 pm
content: Quote from: SerieZ on December 14, 2020, 04:25:11 pmIs Switzerland a religious/ Catholic country or something? Certainly large parts of Europe are pretty relaxed about those kinds of things - and while politicians are busy with that, they are not doing damage elsewhere!Quote from: SerieZ on December 14, 2020, 04:25:11 pmI agree, there has to be a balance between central and local power - it is a very difficult balance to strike, and there is probably no stationary solution to it.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 05:38:08 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on December 14, 2020, 10:24:28 amYou can dissagree with others as much as you like, but as soon as you stop being objective, you become an extremist. Those who voted to leave, believe it's not self-harming and is in the nation's best interests so your analogy is nonsensical, even if you're right, that it will harm the UK.QuoteThe main stream media are biased. A classic example is how they how the reported on protests by the English Defence League vs the BLM. The EDL protests were seen as violent and unruly, wilst the BLM peaceful. The truth is that that the EDL and BLM are both extremist organisations and neither protest was peaceful, but BLM committed more public order offences and acts of vandalism. BLM got away with more because they have a nice sounding name, which no sane person can possibly dispute, but has little to do with their goals and is left-wing, which matches the idealogy of the main stream media nicely.Brexit won't be good, but I take what the main stream media says with a huge pinch of salt.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 05:38:59 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 14, 2020, 05:16:14 pmThe Swiss hate everyone and everything from experienceNote: half my family is Swiss and they'll quite happily say the same things about their own family members in the next Canton as well.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 06:01:52 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 14, 2020, 05:16:14 pmThe bureaucrats seem to think there's a stationery solution.I'll get my coat...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 06:10:20 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 14, 2020, 05:38:59 pmCanton? We call it GuangZhou these days. We have family there.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 06:13:00 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 14, 2020, 06:10:20 pmShall I get your coat while I'm getting mine?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 06:19:05 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 14, 2020, 05:38:59 pmMountain people are mountain people. Anything beyond your valley is scary and bad.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 06:25:38 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 14, 2020, 06:10:20 pmSorry canton not Canton. Bloody iOS

author: SerieZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2020, 06:58:41 am
content: I find it rather cute that some post-colonial Brits would call us haters. I guess the moral high ground meme is something that really runs through the albions veins.Btw as a funfact about Morals: I believe Switzerland has one of the most Brothels per square meter in Europe, but that was not the point either.Anyways, haters gonna hate and I suggest getting a cup of tea - earl grey, and see what happens. Even tho it is current year I do not believe your Doomsday porn will come true, not even close.

author: Messtechniker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2020, 07:21:39 am
content: ... and what it means to small consumers.See pics.Simply stocked up a bit since nobody knowswhat availability in Germany will be next year.PS.: + a further one in the fridge.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2020, 06:25:30 pm
content: Quote from: SerieZ on December 15, 2020, 06:58:41 amMaybe I will have to revise my assessment of Swiss puritanism!Funny how many people in the world have so much trouble coming to terms with the fact of being a mammal...

author: SerieZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 10:55:02 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 15, 2020, 06:25:30 pmIf you take your assessment of a whole people by a Family Anecdote (bigat that fact btw) of some guy from the Internet...The whole point anyways was that I would not enjoy paying for someone else's enjoyment, especially not some career politician, and really why would you? To make the "anti-eu" crowd mad? Masochism?The most ridiculous argument I keep on hearing is that without this central power version of the EU we have today we would have tons of new European Wars, where do you get that Idea from? Do you remember pre year 2000 EU? Do you mean something like Yugoslavia - an overreaching centralized and totalitarian government?Nice Erasmus Projects, Science collaborations, free movement and not having the hassle of exchanging currency still dont make me cheer for Bureaucrats... I am just too much of a hatefull Swiss to accept Assimilation into the Collective.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 06:54:02 pm
content: My personal take, as an EU outsider who has traveled extensively to Europe for over 40 years, is that since the EU’s inception, individual countries have become less individual and more homogenized, more “European” for lack of a better term.It is something very subtle, and can’t really pinpoint anything in particular or that sticks out. But there is something in the background.Again, this is only my personal perception. I could be full of it.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 07:15:13 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on December 16, 2020, 06:54:02 pmI think you are right, but the same effect is true across the Atlantic and elsewhere in the world - perhaps driven by the same chain stores and the same products being consumed worldwide, and obviously especially in the Single Market?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 07:16:59 pm
content: Quote from: SerieZ on December 16, 2020, 10:55:02 amNorwegians are also fiercely independent... - I think it is OK that we find arrangements that everyone can live with, it doesn't have to be the same formula for every country - let's be practical!

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 09:03:08 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on December 16, 2020, 06:54:02 pmI think you're right. Part of it is the effective dismantling of borders. I know quite a few Europeans who live near borders and nowadays don't think anything of popping into another country to do some shopping, or go for a meal. Before the 'free movement' era that was something that was highly unlikely to do on a whim, you'd at least need your passport, you'd have to do some advanced planning in some cases. (Britain has been the odd man out in this regard, as there's a dirty great strip of water in the way between us and everybody else.)Over the past 25 years I've done a fair bit of working around Europe on occasion; I definitely get the feeling that there is much less of a tendency for Europeans to think of Europeans from other countries as 'foreigners' in quite the same way they would have 30, 40, perhaps 50 years ago.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 09:38:23 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on December 16, 2020, 09:03:08 pmWonder if there is a correlation between a country being isolated by geographic features (water, mountains) and "feeling very sovereign"?

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 10:10:52 pm
content: Might be.Even from my very first time in Europe, I was amused that Brits would describe people across the channel as “Continentals”.Back then and previous to the EU, one could purchase an Eurail Pass which would be honored by all of the Western European countries. With the exception of the UK.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 10:21:06 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 16, 2020, 09:38:23 pmWhen I've had discussions about the EU over dinner with people from various EU countries, most people seem very much against the EU moving towards a United States of Europe, but very much in favour of relaxed borders. My impression is the desire for sovereignty is widespread, and quite separate from having the more casual flow of people across borders we see today.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 10:29:58 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 16, 2020, 10:21:06 pmThe way my Continental family/friends view it is - in general - that the EU is a "lesser evil" and they think it is good that they have a say and a veto. There seems to be a general sense that if there wasn't an EU, one would have to be invented and it would end up looking not too different from what we have.I agree that the balance between local and federal power in the EU shouldn't be pushed too far towards the federal model. The EU must not slide into the kind of messy politics that we have seen e.g. in the United States on the federal level - that would more than reason enough for me to vote Leave!

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 11:22:54 pm
content: The Poms could get some leverage out of Brexit, like having imported or locally produced electronic products not having to comply with the EU's ridiculous CE Radio Emissions Directive (CE RED). You cannot sell a $5 AM radio is the EU without having it comply with this RED directive. CE RED is bureaucracy gone mad, resulting in huge compliance testing costs and extended delays in getting product to market. It gets a lot more costly if you design device with two transceivers, like Bluetooth and WiFi using a third party module in your product. Change the plastic enclosure a slight amount, and you have to retest the lot again. The only winners are the regulatory compliance test houses. The Poms will do well to dump this European CE RED stupidity, and adopt something more sensible like Australia's regulatory compliance (RCM) or the USA (FCC).

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 12:47:50 pm
content: Just read and watched the video of this news, just watch the video, interesting spot ... like transporting car windscreen wipers using helicopter ?Curious how much is the selling cost ?->Brexit thingy ...

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 01:37:42 pm
content: Dover gets snarled up on a regular basis. The have a name & plan for it (Operation Stack) since the 80's, there are roadsigns up that refer to it etc.. Nothing new there.That haulage firm bought at least one helicopter a couple of years ago (https://www.keranews.org/2019-01-10/no-deal-brexit-threatens-trucking-shipments-across-english-channel) - and for sure it's cheaper to fly windscreen wipers in than have a production line stop. When you need your wiper blades flown by helicopters you'll will certainly pay for it.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 01:50:03 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 19, 2020, 01:37:42 pmThere is however a new plan. To prevent congestion on the roads though Kent to Dover, come Brexit, lorries destined for Dover are going to banned from entering Kent without having filed for permission. Thing is that, in usual government IT project fashion, the system and software to manage this is running late and is not even tested. The hauliers were only given a half finished specification for their end of it a month or two back and may not even yet have the final specification. But, of course, the system of penalties to enforce this is still due to come into operation on the 1st January.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 02:30:05 pm
content: Operation Brock?Being near Felixstowe we know a number of people in logistics, they are a pretty stoical bunch - I think they must all be on medication, but they deny this.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 03:00:23 pm
content: Reminds me of"Captain Lockheed and the Starfighters", a concept album by Hawkwind and others about the Lockheed F-104 "Widowmaker" aka Starfighter. One track starts with a voiceover of someone administering a list of tranquillising drugs to a pilot to prepare them for climbing into the cockpit of one of these widowmakers:Ground Control: Ready for last minute cock-pit-check?Pilot: OKGC: Largactil....five milligrammesP: CheckGC: Valium...ten milligrammesP: CheckGC: Haloperidol...five milligrammesP: Which one?GC: The little white ones. W - W for white. (W-W written as the German VolksWagen symbol)P: (a bit slower) OK. CheckGC: Pheno Barbitone. Five MilligrammesP: (slower) CheckGC: Disipel...five milligrammesP: (even slower) CheeeckGC: Glass of waterP: Cheeeeeeeck...Ground Control and Pilot: Our father .... which art in heaven hallowed be ... mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxi ma culpa

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2020, 01:35:03 pm
content: Whatever you say about BREXIT. Boris promised to spend £350M a week extra on the NHS - that has certainly come trueAnd with this new variant of COVID (70% better! and made here in good ole Blighty) at least the EU has a genuine reason to brick up the chunnel.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2020, 01:37:09 pm
content: Well actually they cut all other services to keep spending under control.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2020, 01:42:48 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 20, 2020, 01:37:09 pmYou didn't think Iactuallyfact checked my post?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2020, 01:44:54 pm
content: Perhaps you should have written it on the side of a large red bus

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 11:22:55 am
content: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2015/2447/article/139/adoptedIf you're in the EU (or UK before 1/1/2021):When shipping by post, you declare the value of the goods and include any postage. Fair enough.So at present, if I sell something to someone outside the EU for £35.00 and charge £5.00 postage I would declare £40.00 on the customs form (CN22).So what happens from 1stJanuary 2021?In the past there have been cases of people charging a lower price for the goods and bumping up the shipping and then declaring only the lower goods price to try and scrape under some customs threshold. I've seen companies charge one price for whole item, and then split the invoice into two sections (software and hardware) and only declare the hardware. Are these practices going to return.Also VAT.. At the moment we charge UK VAT to most EU customers (some customers submit their EU VAT/TVA number and then we zero rate the goods). We are expecting to zero rate all exported goods from 1/1/2021 unless we hear otherwise. Anyone else have an opinion?

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 11:50:56 am
content: Quote from: fcb on December 23, 2020, 11:22:55 amI guess your starting point would behttps://www.gov.uk/transition"From 1 January 2021, you can charge customers VAT at 0% (known as 'zero rate') onmostgoods you export to the EU. "https://www.gov.uk/prepare-to-export-from-great-britain-from-january-2021** Assuming you're in GB, not UK

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 12:28:25 pm
content: Cheers olkipukki - we've spent several hours today and yesterday watching .gov.uk webinars and reading through .gov.uk stuff.Guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens, was half expecting Boris to delay for another 6 months. The French border shutting has hardened the UK governments resolve to power through at any cost I suspect.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 01:18:32 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 23, 2020, 12:28:25 pmBack in the 60s/70s the Civil Service published a little series of books on how to present information for public consumption, how to design forms, how to present statistics fairly and honestly and so on. They were published via HMSO and were universally excellent. Anyone in the Civil Service who had to produce something for public consumption was pointed at those books, and, for the most part, the Civil Service was a shining beacon of clarity when it came to telling you what you needed to know.They seem to have completely forgotten all of this, and trying to get the sort of information that everybody needs out of Government nowadays is a confusing, messy, shitshow. I have a suspicion that 'digital transformation' is at the heart of it and that the old guard don't 'get' digital media and the pimply faced youths that have taken over from the previous generation of information officers consider it beneath them to read the books and use the principles that served so well for so many years 'because dead tree stuff'.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 03:05:07 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on December 23, 2020, 01:18:32 pmWe are living in an era of incredible incompetence in government, supported by the kinds of people who didn't have much say historically (for good reasons).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 04:54:50 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on December 23, 2020, 01:18:32 pmSir Ernest Gowers "The Complete Plain Words", written in response to his civil service experiences, has been a standard text book for presentation of technical information courses that are part of UK STEM degree courses.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 05:17:42 pm
content: What about CE / UKCA certification?Was discussed in one of topic recently, but is there any updates? Like someone said existing stocks OK, but new products have to be UKCA recertified...

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 05:36:46 pm
content: There is so little infomation available about UKCA and what'll mean. We're assuming that (as far as it concerns electronics) UKCA will be in lockstep with EU CE.

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 06:00:56 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 23, 2020, 11:22:55 amThis is what I believe too. I did a webinar with HMRC yesterday, an hour I won't get back but some handy things in there.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 06:20:29 pm
content: Did the same jc101 - the only thing I got from it was the official pronunciation of EORI and the wonderful word "germplasm".

author: dl6lr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 07:08:42 pm
content: Just found items on ebay from UK relisted now with international shipping and VAT added. Even for items that end before January 1st.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 07:17:21 pm
content: Quote from: dl6lr on December 23, 2020, 07:08:42 pmCan you post a link. I would expect that anything that ends/ships before January 1st should have VAT added as the UK is still in 'transistion'.After January 1st would expect item to be VAT free (there are caveats, some to do with selling more than £100,000 per annum to Germany requiring VAT registration locally). Might be the way eBay works??

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 08:31:00 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 23, 2020, 07:17:21 pm€ (EUR)but taking into account the pound is heading to a parity, not much difference here right nowQuote from: fcb on December 23, 2020, 07:17:21 pmeBay might bend under DE/EU rules, technically they already "charge" VAT-equavalent on behalf some countries and give a seller some reference that a custom use to scan paid duties/VAT.No wonder if they will do it too for UK later.

author: dl6lr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 09:51:53 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 23, 2020, 07:17:21 pmebay 203223773497.The item has been listed since quite some days. Just yesterday the international shipping with the approx. import taxes occured, the day before it was 0.00 (as UK and DE do not charge taxes on exchange).

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 03:06:34 pm
content: post-BREXIT deal agreed. Thank f**k for that.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 03:08:37 pm
content: 1:51, new EU anthem.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 04:24:30 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 24, 2020, 03:06:34 pm2000 pages of small print to decipher you mean...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 04:29:44 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 24, 2020, 03:06:34 pmJohnson seems to think he secured everything promised. There's no blaming the EU for whatever disasters befall the UK from here on.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 04:32:42 pm
content: It’s a fucking shit show the further I look into the details. The EU are pissing themselves laughing at this “deal”.No financial services or data protection provision. Exports to EU now valued at 13% of original capital transfer. Gain roaming charges and visa nightmares. No defence provision. Lose access to Galileo and Horizon.I await us stumbling into a capitalist dystopia pretty sharpish (baby America)

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 04:42:43 pm
content: It was always going to be a poor deal - I think we've known this since the BREXIT vote. But probably better than NO deal. It's the uncertainity that's been killing.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 05:05:55 pm
content: There’s still a lot of uncertainty. It can be voted down by ERG plants and then we end up with no deal still.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 05:17:49 pm
content: Predictions:1) Brexiters will claim "this is not a true Brexit" and wash their hands of any and all problems2) Industry/finance push for ever more deals/agreements to be tagged on to this over the years so we eventually end up close to where we started

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 05:20:12 pm
content: Correct!Hopefully Farage and all the associated loons will fuck off at least.

author: dave j
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 05:27:35 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 24, 2020, 05:05:55 pmLabour will vote for this and most Tory MPs are fundamentally remainers held hostage by the brextremists in the party and can claim they are voting 'for' brexit by agreeing to this deal. The ERG will be irrelevant.Sadly, the chances of Farage & Co. fucking off permanently are minimal.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 05:33:06 pm
content: Hopefully he'll go flying in a light aircraft again

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 05:54:39 pm
content: The big issue for small internet traders selling into the uk from the eu and vice versa is customs clearance around vatVat will now have be collected on everything which means delays and clearance charges , ordinary people don’t suddenly like getting another bill plus xx euros/pounds for clearance charges , plus the delays etcIt’s back to the early 80s.Even things like bringing expensive gear into the EU /UK to bring it back , ( test gear tools of the trade ) will require ATA carnetsIn 1980s I could at least pay my postman , now he can’t take cash and I have to go to a post office to collectSo , if you are a small supplier maybe selling a few kits into the uk , from the eu , even though you arnt vat registered , your customers will see a 21% uplift ( plus clearance charges ) . For the exact same thing, plus delays etc . The exact reverse will to a small uk supplier selling into the euIt will kill small internet traders.It’s a clusterFThe big looser isn’t the UK, it’s Ireland

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 05:59:39 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 24, 2020, 04:42:43 pmIt’s a piss poor deal. I have a daughter on the EU brexit team , it’s very very light. Mostly covering non contentious things like cross recognition of qualifications , flight routes

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 06:15:42 pm
content: Ok, many Brits posters here, mostly with negative aura, as an outsider, what are/is the good points out of these ? The bright side only please.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 06:37:42 pm
content: Be interesting to see if they’ll be some sort of DDP system - prepaid VAT.Without duty (hopefully) it looks like VAT will be the only thing that will needs to be paid. Would make it easier if we can pay it when we get an order (DDP style) or when we place an order.I hate the idea of placing a small order with say TME for £30.00 and then getting a DHL invoice for £17.00 (£6.00 VAT and £11.00 disbursement 🤬).

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 06:42:41 pm
content: Quote from: dave j on December 24, 2020, 05:27:35 pmAah, poor Farage is having a rough end to his year, first he loses Trump's 'frank admiration' and now his hard brexit, both within a couple of months!

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 06:47:29 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on December 24, 2020, 06:15:42 pmWell I guess you could count retaining a tariff free trading arrangement with our nearest and biggest trading partner as pretty positive. At least it's mitigated some of the damage that going to WTO terms would have wrought.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 06:52:12 pm
content: Quote from: MadScientist on December 24, 2020, 05:54:39 pmIs there a lower limit where they won't care? or is e.g. ordering a tube of toothpaste from the EU now going to become a major exercise...

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 06:57:40 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 24, 2020, 06:37:42 pmUnfortunately this is exactly what you’ll get. It only pays very large shippers to prepay vat etcDuty was never going to be an issue as it’s low to non existent on electronics

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 06:58:47 pm
content: QuoteThe uk has removed the vat deminimis threshold from 1st Jan , the EU is doing the same from June 2021( this will bugger up all those small Chinese orders too )

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 07:00:50 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on December 24, 2020, 06:15:42 pmThere is no upside , quite frankly , the illusion of freedom is just that ,

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 08:31:57 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 24, 2020, 05:33:06 pmI'd say I hope the engine konks out, but as some of you know, I don't regard the lack of an engine as a negativePersonally I would opt for anthills, chains, and a six weeks supply of water.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 01:55:11 pm
content: It's here:https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948104/EU-UK_Trade_and_Cooperation_Agreement_24.12.2020.pdfThere's a interesting and fairly concise article here that helps, although the focus is mainly on IMPORTING into the UK:https://smallbusiness.co.uk/what-the-brexit-deal-means-for-small-business-2551906/The EORI number advice is relevant to both import and export.For those EXPORTING to the EU from the UK:https://www.gov.uk/check-duties-customs-exporting

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 06:17:53 pm
content: This at least, by the time of this posting, imo, is the best summary of the deal.->Explainer-How will the EU-British trade deal change ties?Interesting phrase ..."There are also areas left unfinished that will require more negotiation."

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 07:50:34 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on December 26, 2020, 06:17:53 pmYeah, predictably, this is just the beginning of years of wrangling and whining.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 08:00:07 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 26, 2020, 07:50:34 pmFully fleshed out international agreements always take years. When a quick agreement is announced, you can be sure its no more than an outline agreement. People sign outline agreements all the time. Its easy. Without the details you always have enough wiggle room to do pretty much anything you want to.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 08:28:07 pm
content: Its already for years in making, ok, forget about it, fact is that is very convinient isn't it ?Just let the next PM to bear the burden.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 08:32:18 pm
content: I hope there’s lots of pointing back at Boris, May and Cameron.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 08:36:01 pm
content: Do any of you British 'elders' remember the British Standards Institution (BSI) which, went extinct as Britain had to abide by European's (DIN) standards? Would the function of the BSI need to return post Brexit?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 08:42:21 pm
content: BSI is still around. One of my neighbours works there as HQ is only up the road. They’re still relevant and there is alignment across different standards bodies worldwide now. They mostly just assert and syndicate international standard as well as contributing to them.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 08:56:54 pm
content: Will the kite mark make a comeback?

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 09:09:16 pm
content: Doubt it. There is the new ‘UKCA’ mark for items placed onto the UK market eventually.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 09:19:38 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 24, 2020, 06:52:12 pmMy understanding was that VAT has always been due. Whilst in the EU it would have been like buying selling in the UK with VAT added. If you were non VAT registered you paid VAT to the seller even if in the EU, if you were VAT registered you would not pay the VAT but would presumably have it charged when it landed. The rest of the world didn't charge VAT and UK customs were supposed to collect it on arrival. I do remember something about the EU looking into the fact that the UK was not charging the VAT on all the items that were due it. I expect there was an exemption for small items but even on large items getting charged was hit and miss, but then the UK gov has always been shy about collecting taxes hence where we are now.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 09:33:27 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 26, 2020, 08:42:21 pmYea, most BS's became ISO's with the same number, that is international beyond Europe, some remained BS particularly UK specifics like wiring regulations.What really pisses me off is that the standards the world has been operating under have been sold to the UK public as bad for UK business and preventing us being even better. Yep that's right, there is this insidious lie out there that because of these standards we are prevented from doing even better than the basics set out in the standards which defies basic logic but if you think how's stupid the average person is, now realize have of them are even more stupid than that. So people think we will just dump these standards many of which may have actually been created in the UK in the first place so that we can be cheaper and more competitive, totally missing the point that parents are now for example asking without realizing it that they want toys for their children to have paint on with lead in, because if you ditch everything that will become legal again. People don't realize that most of these standards are about their safety and protect them and you flipping bet that if we don't stick to them no one will want to buy our junk! People actually don't get the concept that it is the buyer that sets the standards they are willing to accept, and if they don't like yours, they just don't buy. We can make what little we make however the hell we like if we kinda just don't care that no one will buy it outside of the UK. I wonder, are our political and industrial masters actually going to run a dual system so that internally we get dangerous junk made cheaply but everything exported still complies? probably not practical but they'd do it if it made economic sense.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 09:41:40 am
content: Quote from: MadScientist on December 24, 2020, 07:00:50 pmI think we needed to define freedom in the first place. Lot's of people jumping up and down about it but if you asked them to define it they would not be able to tell you or you would get a load of incoherent gibberish. Living in a society is about giving something up in return for security. I can't say i want to be free to the extent that I should be able to murder people I don't like but then want to live in a society that locks yo up for murder and what about the freedom of my victim. People seem to not see that terms like freedom and rights are in the context of other peoples freedoms and rights and that when you are granted these two things you are also taking on responsibility to respect other peoples freedoms and rights, so you can't do exactly as you please. The same goes with international relationships.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 01:08:27 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 28, 2020, 09:19:38 amThe VAT situation has long been biased incorrectly.Here's an example of how it works at present (UK) and will carry on working till at least 1st July 2021 between EU members.Company in Luxembourg (17% VAT) sells a product to Consumer in Denmark (25% VAT) - Danish consumer is charged17%VAT.Company in Denmark (25% VAT) sells a product to Consumer in Denmark (25% VAT) - Danish consumer is charged25%VAT.Company in Luxembourg (17% VAT) sells a product to Company in Denmark (25% VAT) - Danish company is charged 17% VAT, and can reclaim this as INPUT tax (typically, there are exceptions).Company in Luxembourg (17% VAT) sells a product to Consumer in Denmark (25% VAT) and supplies VAT number to Luxembourg company - Danish company is charged 0% VAT.There are exceptions to this if a company sells beyond a certain threshold, but in general this is how it operates for the smaller companies. This has always struck me as asymetric (neutral as whether it's good or bad). In the UK this is part of the reason why CD/DVD retailers used to operate warehouses in the Channel Islands (the other reason was a VAT threshold on imports).From 1st July 2021 this will change in the EU.https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/modernising-vat-cross-border-ecommerce_enThe benefit of having a warehouse in a low VAT regime will largely disappear and the overall EU VAT take will apparently increase by €7bn - which essentially comes out the pockets of EU citizens... A more level playing field, by increasing the height of the soil (feel free to insert another synonym for soil)?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 01:29:02 pm
content: The problem you have is that the EU is not as tightly joined up as people crying about their independence think and despite a common currency they all have their own financial laws. If you are a consumer and you choose to buy elsewhere you just have to pay what the law says where you purchase, you are the one that chose to buy from another country.As a VAT registered business it makes no difference. To deal with what you point out if a two VAT registered companies in the EU do business no VAT is paid on the sale. The importing country can/should apply VAT on import, the buyer will of course reclaim the VAT. When the buyer goes on to sell the goods in their country they will have to charge VAT, so that will be the VAT they reclaimed on import and VAT on the mark-up. The novelty in the EU was that for sales to consumers in other EU countries VAT was charged as though it was the same country and no import VAT on the consumers side. B2B transactions operated as they would anywhere else, if the buyer is not in the country (or EU for an EU country) then no VAT is charged and none is owed to that countries government. The receiver is then due to pay the VAT to their government at their local rate which they will reclaim anyway and then charge their customers and pay that to the government.VAT is actually very simple and very effective. People pretend it's complicated because they just don't like paying tax! The simplicity of the VAT system means that it cannot be circumvented as easily as corporation tax and businesses do not like that so pretend that the system is illogical and should be scrapped.It's true that the same tax is collected and then refunded as the goods move through VAT registered businesses until the point of sale where the VAT collected from the consumer cannot be reclaimed. But it's very simple and fool proof and in reality each company just pays or is refunded the difference in VAT owed either way. So If in a quarter which is the VAT period I buy £1'000 worth of stock and pay my £200 in VAT but then sell £500 worth of that stock at £1'000 thus charging £200 in VAT I don't owe the government anything and they don't owe me. If the next quarter I sell another £1'000 worth oy sale and collect £200 in VAT but have not bought any stock that I am due a VAT refund on I then have to pay the £200 to the government.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 02:02:00 pm
content: For sure Simon, the VAT system is largely simple and effective. And the changes going on in the EU from 1stJuly 2021 will not have any material effect on UK businesses.My primary concern is that EU customers from 1stJanuary 2021 will be charged VAT locally at the point of import/delivery - and whilst it doesn't really matter where the VAT is paid, the extra friction and likely 'fees and disbursements' that will be charged to collect the VAT will be a PITA for EU customers buying from the UK.Example (assuming exchange rate 1.11)UK company selling a £30 thing to an German customerbefore1stJan 2021:£36.00 (£30.00+VAT) paid by customer to UK company£6.00 VAT forwarded by UK company to tresurarything costs customer~€39.96UK company selling a £30 thing to an EU customeron/after1stJan 2021:£30.00 paid by German customer to UK company£5.70 VAT (equivalent at some likely rubbish exchange rate) paid by German customer to German treasury via postal service or courier.€6.00+ paid by German customer to postal service or courier for the service..thing costs customer €33.30+€6.33+€6.00=~€45.63On top of the extra cost for the customer there will likely be another day added to the delivery cycle and inconvience to the customer.Can any EU forum members contribute examples of buying items from outside the EU, in particular the costs and delays incurred??

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 02:10:12 pm
content: Yes well we wanted to be outside of the EU so now don't share the little common stuff there was. Hopefully a simple system can be devised which should also be about regulating the carriers and what they can charge. DHL will just send me a demand for money and yes I have often paid more in fees than VAT and then not even have the decency to send me an invoice, virtually no record remains of the transaction and if I were VAT registered that is a problem but DHL are bigger than me so can tell me to eff off just like curries/PC world did when I asked for an invoice after filling in a form where they asked for my company name if any. We need laws and rules about how companies deal with this as a lot of the paperwork could be cut out or made simpler as it actually takes more time for small businesses to chase down paperwork that they have to have by law because a big business can tell them where to stick it whilst doing a sweetheart deal with HMRC.So DHL whilst doing minimum work and charging me £11 a go are making a small fortune out of this racket.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 02:30:40 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 28, 2020, 02:02:00 pmOne example I have is sending a package from the US to a Northern European country... the package could not be delivered to the door, it could only be picked up at the post office and only after paying VAT and processing fees. In this case, the recipient ended up having to pay VAT on a much higher estimated value of the contents than the value that had been declared on the package! In other words, the tax authorities are free to make things up as they go along, just as senders are free to make up a value when they send it!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 02:38:30 pm
content: well this is where full invoices should be provided and stuck to. I guess that importing businesses could be spot check audited on their accounts that need to show what payment for goods a payment for VAT relates to. It would soon be clear if any fiddling was going on. For VAT registered companies not a problem as whatever it is it will be claimed back anyway. Non VAT companies would have an incentive to cheat. For individuals it is a nightmare and it needs clear rules. But unless countries cooperate you can't really prove much. I mean think of all those "gifts" from china. The Uk wants to "take back control"? it never exerted what control it did have and then got investigated by the EU.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 03:06:33 pm
content: The fundamental argument/problem here is not whether or not VAT should exist - just on how it is collected, and the costs involved in collecting it.DHL/Fedex both a rubbish at invoicing correctly and in a timely manor - and we have an account with DHL! UPS are marginally better (again we have an account with UPS) but run some steam-driven websites that can be very tricky to prise an invoice out of.Suspect there will be innovation in the space to lower the costs of collecting the VAT, perhaps a mechanism that allows the customer to pay online when they get a tracking# - DHL do something like this when we receive some stuff from China.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 03:11:19 pm
content: Yes systems already exist. I always pay DHL in advance. But the problem is actually these companies that are using something people hate, fear and don't understand as an excuse to rip them off. I really don't know what DHL do for their 11 quid. They can't be assed to send the demand for money to my email they text it to me. I use a computer for online stuff not a phone. Are they seriously telling me that it cost them £11 worth of time to look at the value on the invoice and press a button to send me the text? it's ridiculous. The problem is not the existence of VAT and how will we manage, we have been doing this already but the carriers are using it as an excuse to profit.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 03:26:18 pm
content: Quotenow were out of the EU it shouldn't exist,it was only introduced as part of the conditions of joining the common market,its predecessor,purchase tax,like most other taxes was introduced during war time as a means to raise cash.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 03:29:20 pm
content: It probably should exist. The only difference is that it is harmonised rather than collected at the border.Now we’re going to be, as Simon suggested, screwed by the carriers to collect it on behalf of the taxation regime.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 03:34:15 pm
content: As taxes go I would rather scrap corporation tax and increase VAT due to it's simplicity and virtual impossibility of circumventing. The net result would be the same, the tax would be paid rather than avoided. The problem with imports is unique and will apply to any levy on imports where some third party has to do a load of work. Maybe the government should "take back control" and manage the customs themselves rather than sub it out to private companies like the carriers that are making more at our expense and then dodging tax on it than the tax the government get. Don't be angry with the tax, be angry with the ripoff merchants and a government that closes an eye to it all.

author: Nauris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 03:47:15 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 28, 2020, 02:02:00 pmIf it comes as regular post parcel and you have the tracking code you can rather easily do the customs declaration and pay vat and any customs tarifs in the customs online service. Post charges 2.90 Euros handling fee (that you must remember to pay separately).If it comes with some premium courier, they charge you between 10 to 20 euros for their service.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 03:49:10 pm
content: Taxes are an inevitability - and they should be collected in the most efficient manor possible. Most countries charge consumption tax - both Saudia Arabia and Dubai have recently introduced VAT.There is a statute somewhere that prevents courier firms charging much more than it actually costs - and for sure it doesn't (or shouldn't) cost £11 to collect a VAT payment, they just have no incentive to be more efficient as the amount - if they become more efficient and make more profit on collecting taxes, the statute will force them to charge less.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 03:56:47 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 28, 2020, 03:49:10 pmSo what costs £11? DHL have the paperwork including the sellers invoice. The value is probably inputted to the system when the transport is arranged. How does it cost £11 to trigger a text message with a link to an automated system that I pay on? Or are DHL now going to claim that their card processor charges £10 per transaction. It's stupid.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 04:12:06 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 28, 2020, 02:02:00 pmSince you have DHL and UPS accounts, you can cover a customer headache and pay any due taxes as part of shipment arrangement, isn't?Quote from: fcb on December 28, 2020, 02:02:00 pmDid you never buy anything from non-EU (US,China for example) as non-DDP delivery?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 04:14:27 pm
content: Quote from: olkipukki on December 28, 2020, 04:12:06 pmThe UK are pretty crap at bothering to collect VAT/duty hence they actually got investigated by the EU..... so no, we don't really experience paying duty/VAT very often.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 04:21:42 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 28, 2020, 03:49:10 pmAnswer: defer duty payment.As far as I know, you don't need anymore (from 1st Jan) a financial guaranteer to open a new account...

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 04:28:35 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 28, 2020, 04:14:27 pmHaha, a friend of my told a story: a seller "stampted" $20 goods price on a small-parcel, and sudden FX rate charge has triggered VAT collection, so Royal Mail been happy to charge 8 (?) pounds for leaving 'We cannot delivery your parcel, VAT due here' card...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 04:35:15 pm
content: Yeah that’s about it.That’s why I love Tayda Electronics. Order £50 of shit and it turns up with a $7 pre printed customs valuation. The whole company is basically a big fuck you.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 04:49:11 pm
content: Quote from: olkipukki on December 28, 2020, 04:12:06 pmLower cost stuff tends to ship via post (Royal Mail) - not couriers. No method to prepay.For items that ship via UPS/DHL we could arrange to pay the duties and taxes, but finding out what those are from UPS/DHL (even with a commodity code/HTS number) is mysterious dark art for most destination countries.We mainly do non-DDP delivery from outside EU. Digikey/Mouser both handle all the VAT/excise duty, so technically they are DDP.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:01:14 pm
content: Quote from: olkipukki on December 28, 2020, 04:28:35 pmRoyal mail are crap! their selloff was totally corrupt and they were not the struggling business that our extreme right wing government made out. They had just started to turn a profit thanks to mugs like me using them to ship goods whilst being treated like dirt. Once privatised it got even worse. It's not about the service anymore, but shareholders.It's really simple actually the UK government need to decide how it's handled and legislate. Something along the lines of a declaration made by the sender to the carrier so that VAT can automatically be calculated (x*0.2 is a really simple calculation you know....) and send the receiver a request for payment after which the parcel can be delivered. It's a computer system no more complicated than what this forum runs on. I don't have a problem with a sensible fee like £1 but to pretend that it's a whole load of paperwork and expense is how they get away with ripping you off now.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:09:58 pm
content: Just fuck ‘em now. I use Hermes for anything outbound. Actually better and cheaper than RM now. I get the feeling they’re going to make a killing in Europe if they make this smooth.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:12:29 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 28, 2020, 05:09:58 pmYou ever used hermes in Europe? yea that never went too well, for the amount I ship it's not worth dealing with the significant problems I would have, the margins are not there in low volumes.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:15:19 pm
content: I’ve bounced a few things around without problems but certainly not a regular customer. Generally it depends which country though. Spain and Italy have terrible service for example. Germany quite reliable.Edit: within UK have sent 106 items in 2020 via Hermes on 2-3 day. All delivered. No problems (other than some dick who couldn’t work out how to use the HP counter he bought off me).

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:17:31 pm
content: No company sets a goal to be 'crap' Simon - Royal Mail included. Don't use them if you think they are mugging you off.We've been experimenting with MyHermes this year to ship low cost stuff to UK customers and they have been excellent so far.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:23:01 pm
content: We've only used Hermes for UK so far, but we've been able to upload shipping infomation in CSV format and that has made it really painless.Be interesting to ship some stuff out via Hermes into Europe after 1stJan 2021 and see how they handle the VAT - could be a solution..?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:23:51 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 28, 2020, 05:17:31 pmThe problem with myhermes like others is that you are relying on a bunch of people being paid a pitence, often mums doing deliveries whilst the children are at school. The whole operation is no as safe in my mind than it is with RM. RM are awful for the money they charge but so far I have has less problems.No companies don't set out to be crap, so long as they are making a profit they don't give a toss, if 80% of customers are happy the 20% that are not can go screw themselves, and yes that is a business philosophy. When you are that large you can afford to take such a dim view of your customers satisfaction. They are a private company like any other and the number 1 goal is to make money and so long as people keep coming back they will. They are cheaper than good couriers and whoever is cheaper than them are not always very good.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:30:59 pm
content: All Hermes drivers near me are professional drivers now in branded vehicles. They’re a long way from “miserable fucker slinging package over the fence” days. Was terrible back then I will admit.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:35:21 pm
content: well maybe it's better now in the UK but for other countries what does it mean? when you send with RM there is a default carrier the other end. I do not know how they are chosen but I suspect that if they had too many problems they might get changed. Hermes also make it their business to not be contactable which is a problem. Nothing says screw you to you customers than making it impossible to get in touch when something went wrong.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:35:52 pm
content: I'd use DPD if there was a local pickup point

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:37:47 pm
content: RM are awful on contact too. I usually have to argue with them via Twitter firstly via shitposting and tagging them and then the panicked DMs to resolve the issue.DPD are fairly good unless you need to go to the depot which for me is populated by Morlocks on crack.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:40:48 pm
content: Yes RM are hard to contact too but not impossible, they are also regulated by offcom not that that means much but they don't go totally out on a limb and make it impossible to get hold of them and I actually got a reply to my emails recently and rather than tell me to sod off and fill in a form they asked for the tracking number for the parcel that had not arrived yet.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:41:52 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 28, 2020, 05:30:59 pmAgree. Hermes used to be a joke. But this year we've had zero problems with them. Evidently they are evolving.Yodel on the other hand

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:42:41 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 28, 2020, 05:37:47 pm

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:44:40 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 28, 2020, 05:41:52 pmYea it's yodel i had a problem with and had to pick it up from the ladies house, not really their fault, the idiots that chose to use them because they are cheap wanted their cake and to eat it and wanted me to sign for it and only me. But I am at work when the lady makes deliveries, so i don't buy from them anymore.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:45:27 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 28, 2020, 05:41:52 pmYodel are a big problem as well. Especially as they do a lot of the import cleared deliveries now. Most of the shit I order from China that won’t go through the letterbox is lobbed over my back fence by the bastards.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:48:24 pm
content: Hermes are DHL, so why don't they just do it as DHL?

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:53:47 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on December 28, 2020, 04:49:11 pmIn general, you will pay their admin fees on top, you can find these in tariff guide or speak to your account manager.Quote from: fcb on December 28, 2020, 04:49:11 pmDK/Mouser are DDP by default. Mouser used to cleared via France for UK delivery (that's reason you probably never paid VAT on their orders), but very likely will change from 1st there.Not sure about non-commercial delivery to EU countires. **The major couriers (DHL/Fedex/UPS) have a fixed cost (never saw less than min 10 EUR admin fee) or % from a total amount. Assuming you're not their client, they usually send a post delivery invoice, or ask advance payment at point of delivery or via invoice again, that's depends from a country.** from non-EU country

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 05:59:26 pm
content: Mouser have an EU base and even a UK office. So I assume they were handling the whole thing themselves and dealing with tax authorities. What happens if you are sending from your company in one country to you company in another country? All I know is that given how awful RS and Farnell are I actually chose to use Mouser a lot of the time if I can wait 2 more days, it's easier to get something from texas USA than it is from corby UK up the road from me or leeds UK.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 06:13:30 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 28, 2020, 05:59:26 pmIt doesn't matter, question how they have cleared non-EU import into EU.Before, everything landed in France for UK, they have cleared customs and paid all taxes, and if you're VAT registered - no VAT since all done in France, right?From 1st Jan, they're not going to do 'import into EU' for your UK delivery anymore.There're still DDP, so you're okay - do not need to pay any admin fees or extra taxes, but will pay VAT to Mouser UK **** regardless if VAT registered business or not

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 06:43:34 pm
content: That's fine then, VAT registered companies will just reclaim the VAT like they usually do anyway.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 06:49:52 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 28, 2020, 06:43:34 pmIt takes a long time to reclaim that VAT, typing up considerable additional cash. Interest rates may be low, but this is still not a good situation.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 06:56:20 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 28, 2020, 06:49:52 pmWell if your cashflow relies on not paying VAT whilst you are charging it your clearly fucked as a business. As I explained a bit further back normally businesses pay VAT and charge VAT, each quarter the difference is paid to HMRC. So unless you are only buying and not selling you will have that money to hand anyway. Some companies run a separate account for VAT and will always put the VAT charged into that account and then use that account to pay the VAT on invoices so effectively every 3 months what is left in that account is given to HMRC as it would be the VAT on the markup.You file every 3 months, the money is given taken in under a month. It's actually fairly automated, as I said, it's such a simple system and anything that at first glance looks silly actually gives the system it's simplicity, so you are not arguing about stuff with HMRC and having to show detailed accounts. You just give them the invoices for purchases and sales and get pay/get credited 16.6666% the residual value.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 10:52:42 am
content: There is in fact a simple way to at least try and solve it which is that the seller declares the correct value to the carrier and is responsible for doing so. It would not take that much enforcement work to catch the fraudsters and the sending countries authorities would have to agree to cooperate or their country is bared from using the easy system so it's all done the hard way which means only large importers would bother and importers don't pay the prices that consumers pay.I just spent £97 with a Chinese company, all due credit to them, just days later fedex have knocked on my door with my goods and were paid $20 for their services. But the invoice has declared the total value at "14" so no idea if USD that I purchased in or GBP and apparently the shipping was free. Now I can't put that invoice against my accounts as I have £97 to justify (fortunately I am not VAT registered).Who is responsible here? The only way of knowing is if I was to have my accounts inspected and the couriers records also be checked. If customs looked at the invoice in the package when it arrived and did a few minutes of research they could easily find out that the value is completely understated. I mean even if they just charged VAT that is nearly £20 that they would otherwise not have had and it could all be done in 15 minutes, £80/hr has got to be worth anyone's time even if they are paid £20/hr. If they charged me £2 for doing it I would not care. The same goods in the UK would have cost at least 5 times as much.At one point and I see it is gone now PCB cart had a tick box option in the account settings for "correct value on invoice" which was code for, if you are a business maybe you would like us to be honest as it might cause you more pain than the money it saves.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 10:56:15 am
content: Amazon have just effectively done this. If I were VAT registered any sales made outside of the UK would have the VAT collected by Amazon and paid to the UK government directly completely removing me from the loop.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 11:34:15 am
content: There is no such thing as 'free shipping' as far as customs are concerned.If your chinese company declared '14' on the CI (COMMERCIAL INVOICE) then they are lying and depriving HMRC of legally entitled revenue. These are the practices that they are trying to stamp out. And yes if customs spent a couple of minutes researching each parcel we'd have instant gridlock in the system.Also, a CI is not the sort of invoice you can include in your accounts, it is purely a shipping document. Typically you should get or ask for a TAX INVOICE.Going forward Simon, I would have thought it would make sense to be VAT registered even if you are below the threshold. Accounting SW like Xero make VAT returns painless, and you can at least get an EORI which might help.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 04:11:56 pm
content: No it's pointless being registered. Most of what I do is bulk buy and sell. So every sale would have to have an invoice that I would have to create. I would then have a lot more accounting to do no matter the system (I currently use Freeagent) because when you are VAT registered it's not about what is in your accounts but what the invoices say. So I sell an item on Amazon and ebay, I write and invoice for the buyer, but I get the money minus fees so I then have to track down every last document and have to start including money that I was never paid that has to come off the final value for: ebay, amazon (who would collect VAT for me apparently), paypal and stripe.I'm not sure how all of this works in practice as now I go from just marking money arriving as a sale to a load of paperwork and then I need to get more paperwork to show that some of that money on the invoice never actually hit my accounts. So basically there would be the real money and then all of the invoices going both ways for everything. A lot of work, an awful lot, for what? to add 20% to my markup and give it to the government, or loose 16.66% off my markup and all the work.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 03:04:55 pm
content: Quote from: MadScientist on December 24, 2020, 07:00:50 pmJust now after reading below, I became fully understand whats you mean, 2021 will be pretty ugly, my sympathy.->Testing the UK elasticity limit in 2021

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 03:42:45 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on January 02, 2021, 03:04:55 pmThe world is always changing... we are living history!

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 03:48:08 pm
content: There's a good chance that if Scotland gets another 'once-in-a-generation' vote on independance soon they'll vote to leave the Union.The actual name for the Tories is the "Conservative and Unionist Party", which tells you how much opposistion there will be to a vote in Northern Ireland on reuniting with Ireland (for those not familar with British politics the Unionist's want to remain in the United Kingdom and not 'reUNITE' with Ireland).It's slippery and fairly inevitable slope we are on, and made even more likely by BREXIT.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 03:49:18 pm
content: These guys have nothing on what we are doing to ourselves in the UK.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 04:41:26 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on January 02, 2021, 03:48:08 pmYep, dark moment is coming, watch the video at the link I pointed above, where near at the end where the reporter Nick reported on what he got when interviewed a lady which has children crying on these issue, must be a lot of really stressful people there.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 05:33:41 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on January 02, 2021, 04:41:26 pmAs Thomas Sowell observed of the current generation "The problem isn't that Johnny can't read. The problem isn't even that Johnny can't think. The problem is that Johnny doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling.". Huge numbers are voting on long term decisions based on how they feel today. Those still able and inclined to think have little solid information on which to base their thinking, as the media mostly presents the public with more feelings, and little hard information. Most people in the media couldn't even present hard information, as they show day after day a lack of understanding of basics statistical processes - e.g. the shocking news that schools are now performing so poorly that around half are below average. We should have been able to laugh at the idiot reporter who said that as an anomaly, but its actually business as usual in the media.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 05:49:40 pm
content: Exactly that. Measuring what people believe is true was a job of mine once. There is a lot of parity with media and a lot of disparity with fact. I digress but I noped out of that place fairly quickly and it became an instrument of today’s shitshow.Thinking is hard so people subcontract it out to the lowest bidder. That’s usually the gutter press.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 06:34:13 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 02, 2021, 05:33:41 pmNo he didn't. He wrote that in "Inside American Education" in 1993. That's 27 years ago and about apreviousgeneration. It might have been true then, it might be true now, but it wasn't this current generation he was talking about.Personally I'd take the opinions of someone who has spent so much of their life working at American conservative think tanks with a pinch of salt, a pithy sounding quotation lends the thinking of the quoted a respectability that perhaps it is not due. Ironically, that quotation engagesonlywith feelings, it offers no logic for, nor any evidence for its stated position.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 06:56:53 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on January 02, 2021, 03:48:08 pmAnd once the United Kingdom (of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) has lost NI, all the .uk URLs will be incorrect/obsolete. OK, so we could flip to .gb URLs, but what happens if Scotland seceeds?Mind you, I think it is unlikely that Scotland would be readily admitted to the EU: Spain would veto it lest the Catalans be emboldened.Re-uniting the bits of Ireland should be possible from the EU perspective, though, just as it was with the bits of Germany.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 06:59:24 pm
content: Don’t even go there. I had to shoot my .eu domain a while back

author: dave j
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 07:22:05 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 02, 2021, 06:56:53 pmThat's not Spain's position:Quote

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 07:42:01 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on January 02, 2021, 06:34:13 pmInteresting interpretation of generation. The people being educated in the early 90s are now the core of the voting public.Quote from: Cerebus on January 02, 2021, 06:34:13 pmHis writings contain a lot of data. Something you don't see much of in support of most of the pithy quotes of 2020. I think people overrate Thomas Sowell. His great weakness is a one size fits all approach to analysis. He hits the mark in many cases though, and supports his ideas with actual data.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 07:55:24 pm
content: The problem is that people are not prepared to accept that they do not know everything and so once their mind is made up that is it. I think we will soon discover how "free" we are and just how much "less" (more) regulation hinderance we will have. And certainly the EU will get the blame when it is in fact just how things actually work. The UK government in a political penis waving exercise are introducing the UKCA mark, this is pointless, it means that anything made and sold in the UK and sold to the EU will have to be certified twice and it means that imports that do not abide by the UKCA mark presumably will not be accepted. So far from reducing regulation it is the British government that is introducing more regulation. What they really meant when they said we could be more competitive was that they wanted to trash all standards relating to worker rights, safety and the environment except they can't now so the UKCA mark will just be a duplication of the CE mark. Of course this is lost to the man on the street that just wants to know who to blame so long as it's not his side.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 08:38:42 pm
content: So yesterday as I was deleting all the VAT calculations on my w/s and simplifying pricing to "non-UK” and “UK only" - I felt like I was hit by a huge wave - like a bereavement.I won’t be rude about BREXITEERS, we lost and that’s democracy – I just can’t figure out how things will be better out of Europe??Anyhow, back to browsing Leggett Immobilier.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 08:47:08 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 02, 2021, 07:55:24 pmThe whole concept of democracy has some serious flaws, which are being exploited mercilessly these days. (It is still probably just about the least bad of the possible political systems, but we probably need for there to be consequences for intentionally attempting to break the system for political advantage. Also, I don't think politicians lying should fall in the category of "free speech").

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 09:30:52 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 02, 2021, 06:59:24 pmMany people use the domain .su (Soviet Union)...

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 09:45:12 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on January 02, 2021, 08:47:08 pmGolden words! Democracy is an opportunity for politicians not to answer for anything: you have freedom - think about yourself. The price of freedom is the constant vigilance. W. Churchill (if I am not mistaken).You have been eaten up in Europe by bureaucrats and politicians, ambitions or the influence of money bags on them. In the same way as previously, these useless people weakened the Soviet Union. It seems to me that the politicians of Europe are more inventing problems, leading people by the nose just to be in office and show their needed. This is helped by large corporations to get more money out of people.Maybe my opinion is wrong, but this is an outside view.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 10:38:36 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on January 02, 2021, 08:47:08 pmYes and no. One of the problems I see is that some 'democratic' systems (like in the US and the UK) are setup to keep the power concentrated to a few people. Democracy works better when there are a multitude of parties and thus views at the helm. IOW: there should not be absolute power resting on a single person or party.

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 11:33:07 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on January 02, 2021, 08:38:42 pmWell, I am certainly no expert......there, thats it out of the way!I found myself changing the vat rules in my own online shop on the 31st ahead of new years day.........and for me it was weirdly satisfying as I have always hated the EU. Now, I dont pretend life will be better now, but for me I like the change.....I couldn't stand it any more!, lots of reasons least of all the complicated VAT rules being a LTD company.Fortune favours the brave as they say, so we'll see what happens going forward.I'm Scottish and voted for independence, but wanted out the EU........oh dear, thats not on Sturgeons agenda.........we'll see!......just as long as they don't take my soldering iron off me....Ian.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 11:56:45 pm
content: Quote from: IanJ on January 02, 2021, 11:33:07 pmThis stuff has obviously been done to death for many years now, but - when all is said and done - I think if the EU didn't exist to balance all the needs and wants of the 27 European countries, something very close to it would have to be invented - otherwise, the whole continent would end up with eternal bickering like we see inside the UK now. I think Continental Europeans are generally far more aware of this than British people. I also think the more "cosmopolitan" and mobile you are, the more benefit you have from EU citizenship. If you live in one of the Continental European countries, it is far more natural to hop across the border to the next country for whatever reason - so freedom of movement is a huge plus.It is what it is. History doesn't stop here... will be interesting to see what path Scotland chooses. Looking at it from the outside, the Scottish government seems considerably less crazy than the Westminster lot, but I'm too far away from it to really say anything sensible about it...

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 09:30:10 am
content: Quote from: IanJ on January 02, 2021, 11:33:07 pmI guess in near term, Sturgeon's agenda is for independence, then the EU matter for later ? Or .. its a mixed bag complicated situation among Scottish that want independence ?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 11:07:56 am
content: Northern Ireland should just join the Republic, eventually. It's silly for them to be two separate countries.I don't see the point in Scotland leaving the UK. A border between the two countries will only cause disruption and trouble.So far, Brexit hasn't been as bad as the mainstream media said it would be, but it's not good either. I've noticed TME have temporally stopped dealing with individual UK customers.https://www.tme.eu/gb/information-bar/42836/brexit-informationUK

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 11:43:44 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 03, 2021, 11:07:56 amWhich ever sides, I guess that year 2021 is the "right" timing and riding on the massive momentum that the separatists have been waiting for so long, isn't it ?

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 11:47:53 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 03, 2021, 11:07:56 amTME have an office in the UK, invoice in GBP, have a UK registered Ltd company, bank account, VAT number and UK based rep (whom I've spoken with before - nice chap) - so dealing with them *should* be as easy as dealing with any UK company. I'm placing an order next week with them, so we'll see how smoothly that goes.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 02:58:19 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on January 02, 2021, 08:47:08 pmThe idea that you might be able to ban lies in public life is predicated, consciously or unconsciously, on there being some kind of benevolent proactive God who can look down and tell humanity what is right. The need for a truly independent arbiter, which doesn't exist in the real world, is the key reason so many ideas for running a society fail. Systems that work reasonably well are the ones that have some amount of self correction inherent in them. They can still go off the rails, but less often.Some lies are so obvious and blatant, they should be incontrovertible. However, in tribal societies people can't even agree what "woman" means any more.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 03:36:52 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 03, 2021, 02:58:19 pmTo start somewhere, we could say that a statement that is provably untrue is a "lie". For example, claiming that there was cheating during an election without evidence to back it up.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 03:41:33 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on January 03, 2021, 03:36:52 pmThat's an odd one to choose. There is lots of evidence, and sworn testimony. Maybe its all fake, but not investigating its veracity in a democracy is bizarre. Most of the court cases were thrown out due to a lack of standing, not because the evidence was successfully refuted.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 04:04:17 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 03, 2021, 03:41:33 pmWell, I've been following this in the press and all accusations are - at best - minor irregularities like you would expect with any human activity, including the street in front of your house (do everyone drive perfectly? do they drive "good enough"?).So, if you want to, you could pick out jaywalkers and drivers speeding by 5mph to prove that lawlessness is rife on the streets, and then run for election based on improving law and order.At some point in my life, I understood that law enforcement is never going to be perfect... the best we can do is go after the those cases that cause harm. If you apply that standard to the evidence and testimony we have seen regarding election cheating, there really isn't anything there as far as I have seen.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 04:14:18 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 03, 2021, 02:58:19 pmYou're confusingopinion, for which onewouldneed an independent arbiter if one was insistent on assigning a truth value to an opinion, withfact. Facts are verifiable, opinions are not. Whether someone has two X chromosomes and is therefore biologically female is a fact and is relatively easily proven one way or another, whether someone belongs to the gender set assigned the label "woman" is a social construct and therefore a matter of opinion or convention.One does not actually need any fancy philosophy or to delve into the depths of epistemology to know the difference between truth and a lie. Most of us learned the difference at our mother's knee and any attempt to argue that it's difficult, with all the facts available, to distinguish a lie from an opinion or a bit of rhetoric is mere sophistry. Lying is when one deliberately presents something as the truth while knowing or believing it to be untrue, or when one presents something that is in itself strictly true while deliberately withholding information that one knows would invalidate the sense of what one is claiming or implying to be true (the lawyer's lie).I think you were really trying to head in the direction of "doing the right thing" which is much broader than mere lying, that indeed does need an independent arbiter and in society we have assigned that rôle to "the rule of law". That lies and other misbehaviour in public life are not effectively punished is one of the the most corrosive things in society today. If Dominic Cummings can be a scofflaw with impunity why should anybody else obey the rules?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 04:33:32 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on January 03, 2021, 04:14:18 pmSome facts are easy to verify, like 2+2=4. This doesn't stop people now trying to argue that 2+2 can equal 5. Some facts are hard to verify. Few would argue that a ginger tom in someone's lounge, or a lion, is a cat. Around the periphery of what constitutes a cat the experts do argue. For example. do they have to be able to interbreed to all be cats? Maths, physics and chemistry largely have easy to verify truth claims. Most things have a socially constructed element to them, like "cat", and some concepts are 100% socially constructed. Even in physics we have socially constructed concepts, like colour, that cause endless disagreements. As soon as physics moves from a hard mathematical description to a looser textual one truth starts to get a little dodgy. People find truth claims quite difficult to agree on for most things.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 04:43:23 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 03, 2021, 04:33:32 pmThat's just sophistry, and I think you know it.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 04:44:50 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on January 03, 2021, 04:43:23 pmThat requires some explanation.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 04:46:23 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 03, 2021, 04:33:32 pmIf we agree the assumptions, then we can also agree the logical truths. Both steps are needed.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 04:54:01 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 03, 2021, 03:41:33 pmMost of the court cases were thrown out due to a lack of standing, not because the evidence was successfully refuted.That is simply a false statement and is easily proven to be false. Simply count the number of court cases and determine whether the number of court cases dismissed because of a lack of standing exceeds the total number of cases / 2. I do not believe that you have done that. I believe that it is more likely that you are simply expressing a biased perception because (in large part) of lies being repeated so often. Therein lies the bigger problem.Maybe its all fake, but not investigating its veracity in a democracy is bizarre.There is much that is simply wrong with that statement. First, it assumes that no investigations have taken place, which is, again, demonstrably false, Second, it suggests that the biased view that certain allegations, no matter how lacking of supportive evidence, should be investigated at whatever cost and for however long, if doing so is viewed as politically advantageous. Third is describing the practice of requiring evidence to support allegations as being bizarre. What is bizarre is that so many people, who know better, are acting like they really don't know better and have no problem wading into the unfounded conspiracy pool because they perceive some kind of personal gain in doing so.The latter description distinguishes the "weasel" from the "loon". To be clear, I am not calling you either, I am referring to the talking heads and publicity hounds and wannabe "influencers", and, of course, the elected officials which condone and support such behaviors if not directly engaging in such behaviors, which some also do.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 05:05:32 pm
content: Quote from: DrG on January 03, 2021, 04:54:01 pmAs an observer from another country, I find a deep lack of skepticism in America about its elections. There are only two parties of any significant weight, and both are regularly seen to be using every possible means to skew results in their favour, like Gerrymandering. Its considered the preferred approach, over having policies the public can get behind, and ensuring they are carried out. Yet, when it comes to the actual election day there is a general assumption they won't play games. I would assume they are both getting up to every possible trick, and demand the most detailed monitoring by numerous representatives from all stakeholders. The US has used voting machines considered proprietary and not subject to independent audit. That's bizarre.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 05:12:25 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 03, 2021, 05:05:32 pmI appreciate your opinion and respect your right to voice it. What you are saying above essentially ignores my responses and those responses were the most important points that I wanted to make and I am ok making them as I did.I'm not going to go into your comments above in as much detail, except to say that we all find a lot of things bizarre.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 05:23:01 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 03, 2021, 05:05:32 pmCan accusing the elections of being outright rigged without evidence be considered "skepticism"? Or is it just sedition?Quote from: coppice on January 03, 2021, 05:05:32 pmIt is almost as if you are saying nobody is monitoring the elections in the USA. Is that really the case?Quote from: coppice on January 03, 2021, 05:05:32 pmDid that happen with the 2020 election? I don't recall seeing any verified cases of that.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 05:38:35 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 03, 2021, 05:05:32 pmI agree with this, although I think you're downplaying the skepticism in the USA. There seems to be millions of americans being currently skeptic. Maybe you mean a lack of skeptisicm from the institutions themselves?And regarding the voting machines, the concerns seem real and nothing new either:https://www.breitbart.com/2020-election/2020/11/13/top-democrats-raised-concerns-about-dominion-voting-technology-in-2019/https://edition.cnn.com/2019/09/26/politics/hackers-voting-machines/index.html(a lot of other concerns were expressed in the past years, from independent sources, as well as both from democrats and republicans.)Is there a valid reason not to be concerned anymore?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 06:04:46 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 03, 2021, 05:38:35 pmThere were a lot of articles about the lack of accountability in Dominion machines in early 2019. If you go back a decade there have been lots of articles in publications across the political spectrum about the lack of accountability in a number of makes of voting machines. Dominion seem to have supplied 28 US states. I'm not clear if they are the only supplier in those states, but they appear to have served 70M voters in the 2016 elections. Clearly they are an important player in this market.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 06:13:29 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on January 03, 2021, 05:23:01 pmNo, it's not the elections that are rigged. It's the whole system.It's very unreasonable to only have two choices for a given political view, and it polarizes your entire country. It's unhealthy. You should be able to choose between multiple political parties, have coalitions, and make healthy compromises that make sense.There must be so many people that are forced to vote for one party or another, otherwise they will have worse taxation or they would (supposedly) loose a right that they cherish.It is similarly wrong, like the elections were in the Soviet union. People are not free to choose what theyactuallywant, due to the lack of reasonable candidates.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 07:22:48 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 03, 2021, 05:38:35 pmNever quote Breitbart. Propaganda outfit.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 07:47:43 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 03, 2021, 06:13:29 pmThat is an entirely different discussion, and I agree with you - the two party, first past the post system has been leading to poor outcomes both in the UK and the USA in recent years.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 07:54:10 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 03, 2021, 07:22:48 pmAll news sources are now propaganda outfits.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 08:38:05 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 03, 2021, 07:54:10 pmPretty much so. Now what matters it whether the information conveyed is true or not. Was it not?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 11:38:51 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 03, 2021, 07:54:10 pmTo a degree yes. But on the spectrum of batshit insane to vaguely ok, that one isn't even visible by Daily Mail readers with a telescope because it's that far closer towards batshit.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 12:04:51 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 03, 2021, 11:07:56 amIt has less to do with the border and more to do with the taxation of the oil beneath the ocean up at the top.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 12:08:26 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 03, 2021, 11:38:51 pmIf you are going to call Breitbart batshit crazy, what words have you left in reserve for CNN?

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 12:10:34 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 04, 2021, 12:08:26 amEven the normies now are beginning to don the foil hat. I can't keep up with production.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 12:18:21 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on January 04, 2021, 12:04:51 amWith the oil running out I think Scotland's interest in independence was waning. However, I've been reading rumours of new oil finds. Suddenly Scotland seems more interested in independence again.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 09:12:31 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 04, 2021, 12:08:26 amI never look at CNN so I can't classify it. I have no opinion.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 01:06:13 pm
content: Yeah, not easy to get news nowadays, but still I keep trying, sometimes like viewing same subject at to opposing news sites, like BBC vs RT.COM for example.Or Israel's news vs Arab's ones and etc, or sometimes mixed cross referencing say like major news outlet vs different special type like financial news outlet, as sometimes it can yield something useful, at least for me.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 01:17:29 pm
content: It's a good point. Never trust a single source and never trust a known bad one.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 01:23:04 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 04, 2021, 01:17:29 pmJust try NOT to categorize bad or good, just read on and get the vibe, sometimes things looked differently from different perspectives , for example ->HEREvsHERE, now do you feel the vibes across two or even more than two POVs ?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 01:42:54 pm
content: Ah yeah of course. The lack of news is a sign as well. Although the BBC are well known for selectively ignoring stories.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 01:50:53 pm
content: "EU firms refuse UK deliveries over Brexit tax changes"https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 02:00:55 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on January 04, 2021, 01:50:53 pmI doubt this will be more than a temporary thing for any EU company that does signiifcant UK business as they won't want to lose business. And for smaller businesses, I'm sure we will see reshippers (legit or otherwise) filling in the gap

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 02:05:27 pm
content: There's a warning of delays on the RS website.https://uk.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=aboutRS/brexit&intcmp=UK-WEB-_-HP-AHB-_-Jan-21-_-brexit

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 02:24:32 pm
content: Its not just company's out of the uk that have stopped selling to the ukQuotehttps://www.brooksengland.com/en_uk/uk-shipping-notice

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 02:34:52 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on January 04, 2021, 02:24:32 pmThat's nuts. So a company that trades on it's very Englishness (although looks like it's owned by an Italian firm now) and manufactures in the England, can't sell it's products in England (albeit temporaily).I struggle to see why many of these companies (that undoubtedly trade with non-EU customers) haven't got a grip on this.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 02:39:50 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 04, 2021, 09:12:31 amYou should look around more. Things change. Breitbart (and Fox and a few others) used to be off in the weeds when much of the media in the US was only moderately deranged. However, in the last 4 years, with much of the US media screaming "ORANGE MAN BAD" all day and not reporting much actual news, people like Fox and Breitbart have developed their niche as a more balanced source of news.Saying an article should be disregarded because its on a particular platform is just an ad hominem attack in an age when no source can be trusted even a little bit.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 02:48:44 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on January 04, 2021, 02:34:52 pmShipping is cheap, and customs barriers manageable, so most companies centralise their logistics. They typically assume the world will forever run smoothly, even though it obviously doesn't. Even the biggest component vendors tend to ship from only 2 or 3 logistics centres around the world. They often move parts from one of their factories to a logistics centre the other side of the world, and then shipping them back to a customer's factory in the same town as their own factory. If we could only have higher shipping costs, or more customs barriers, maybe we could stamp out this insanity.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 03:34:43 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 04, 2021, 02:48:44 pmGreat. We've discovered one good thing about Brexit: if discourages UK companies from unnecessarily shiping things to Europe and back, it will help to cut CO2emissions.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 04:04:37 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 04, 2021, 02:00:55 pmNot necessarily. I found a perfect subcontractor for an assembly step, and I had to look for alternatives because they were in the UK. I am also looking for alternatives for the UK sourced specialty components in our products. Even if it would be just filling out an extra paper, UK companies are already loosing business.Because why would you choose a company in the UK if someone else can do it here? GBP was already an inconvenience.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 04:47:13 pm
content: https://www.fkgb.co.uk/insights-and-facts/do-foreign-companies-need-to-register-for-uk-vat/If you want to sell into the UK then YOU HAVE TO REGISTER FOR UK VAT.Oh boy. This is going to screw-up alot of small traders, and if this is the first you're hearing of this, then it'll take 4-6 weeks (at least knowing HMRC) to do this - and there is a fee apparently. Certainly don't remember .gov.uk shouting about this one. Be fun if the EU set's the local VAT threshold to zero for UK companies wanting to export.Any examples of countries making you register for VAT/purchase tax before you can sell to them. Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 05:36:37 pm
content: Yeah that was well known for anyone who did any research for at least 2 years.This never made it into the press because it wasn't on the agenda.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 05:54:25 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on January 04, 2021, 04:47:13 pmThe entire EU as of July 1st, 2021. We're just copying them and rushing it out early for further foot-shooting. Because, you see, we're a sovereign country and can make our own laws.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 06:03:52 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on January 04, 2021, 05:54:25 pmNow we are sovereign again, can we get the guinea back too?guinea pig: someone who fleeces people for an extra five percent when they don't notice the price is in guineas and not pounds.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 06:05:03 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 04, 2021, 05:36:37 pmI was aware that the VAT import threshold in the EU was going to drop to zero on 1stJuly 2021 - weirdly it didn't cross my mind that we'd implement same and do it on 1stJan 2021.This is quite informative:https://www.bishopfleming.co.uk/insights/brexit-guides-b2c-supplies-customers-eu-after-1-january-2021

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 11:27:44 pm
content: The EU also intended to drop the vat deminimis on the 1st Jan , it delayed this due to COVIDThe idea of dropping the deminimis was to “ encourage “ suppliers to charge VAT at source and collect for the destination country. The idea being that this avoids a customs collection charge and hence suppliers will see the benefit in “ extra judicial” tax collectionRemember the uk essentially transferred all the EU laws into domestic law in one swop, you now have a little EU all to yourselves

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2021, 05:51:22 pm
content: RULES OF ORIGINhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55576571https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-your-goods-meet-the-rules-of-originThis'll be fun.Our products (made in the UK from parts from allover the world) undoubtedly meets the ad-valorem ("value added") rules. However we also sell C20/C19 cables with our CPA100 power analysers, some of these are made in China and we don't process these further, so won't meet the ad-valorem rules unless they are supplied as part of the whole package?? Probably? Maybe? Can we sell these as spares? What about existing stock? Who knows?

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2021, 12:56:43 pm
content: Latest update from our lovely gov.https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/employer-bulletin-uk-transition-special-edition/employer-bulletin-uk-transition-special-edition"You need to complete a simple online declaration when entering or leaving Great Britain if you are carrying goods to sell or use by a business with a value not exceeding £1,500"

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2021, 01:11:55 pm
content: Oh that's going to be fun.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2021, 02:18:25 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on January 22, 2021, 12:56:43 pmI think we are OK so far. This is a perfectly normal requirement.Quote from: fcb on January 22, 2021, 12:56:43 pmThat's some funky wording. Most places are OK with you taking some tools with you as you fly around on business. "Use by a business" seems to include tools, samples you are taking to show people, etc., which is kinda silly. Do they really intent that?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2021, 02:43:37 pm
content: The wording is terrible. My corp laptop is £2500 so that'll be fun when I next go to a conference.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2021, 03:08:37 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 22, 2021, 02:43:37 pmAgreed. Wording is a problem. At least COVID is going to reduce/stop any conferences/tradeshows/foreign travel for a few(!) more months - perhaps better guidance will be available by then.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2021, 03:26:24 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 22, 2021, 02:43:37 pmYour corp laptop was worth 2500 in the moment of the purchase, today it is 1499..

author: Nauris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2021, 05:20:07 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on January 07, 2021, 05:51:22 pmMy understanding is that you can sell them as usual but you need to properly mark the country of origin as "China" in the customs paperwork. There is 3.3% import customs tariff for such cable assemblies from China. (For shipments of over 150€)

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 02:12:42 pm
content: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55786974To further add to the total balls-up that is BREXIT.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 02:19:22 pm
content: Yeah. It’s kind of an invitation really isn’t it. Come to the sunny uplands. In Germany

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 02:45:27 pm
content: QuoteIt is,especially when hmrc aint got a clue when you contact them to ask advice

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 02:47:13 pm
content: That’s not unusual though. I had a tax investigation in 2007 after following their advice

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 03:38:39 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on January 24, 2021, 02:12:42 pmIt's not as if people weren't warned.It's the price of sovverinty, innit? - as long as someone else bears the cost, they are OK with it!

author: Keith956
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2021, 03:11:20 pm
content: Anyone bought anything from China in the last couple of weeks? I'm looking at a Micsig dp10007 that is £148, says postage free from Shenzhen, however it's not clear if I'm going to be hit for customs duty/ 20% VAT etc?

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2021, 03:29:50 pm
content: You'll most likely have to pay both VAT, some Duty and a handling charge (possibly two) for VAT/Duty.My guess is something like : £29.60 VAT, £11.00 VAT handling charge, £11.00 duty and another £11 Duty handling/clearing charge - so perhaps another £63 payable locally.Or buy it from Telonic in the UK for £174.00 (incl. VAT and delivery).As the item is over £135 value the seller has no option/ability to charge you VAT at source I believe.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2021, 05:28:15 pm
content: Yeah a lot of people don’t seem to notice Telonic. Turns out a lot more cost effective than risking purchase and warranty half way round the globe. Good company too.

author: Keith956
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2021, 06:42:12 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on January 26, 2021, 03:29:50 pmThanks I was trying to work out if Telonic would be cheaper once you added up all the extra charges. It's a safer bet.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2021, 07:58:28 pm
content: Telonic's £145 (no VAT) is a few quid less than the £148 you've seen abroad. Either Telonic are making a vanishningly small margin, or the place you saw the £148 is quite expensive (perhaps the 'free' shipping is pricey for them).Either way you'll be miles better off sourcing from the UK/Telonic - I've bought a few bits of Rigol/Micsig from them over the years, they've always been good. At least they've dropped the "free firmware check value £25" bollox.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2021, 08:37:24 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on January 26, 2021, 07:58:28 pmI just looked on Banggood, and its £99.88 there. So, there's a reasonable saving, if you don't mind the warranty risk.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2021, 07:49:00 am
content: Oh got some customs hell now. This is a fine example of a brexit bonus.So I sold something on eBay. To someone in the UK. So this is a UK to UK delivery. But due to some stupid unibrowed morons at UPS they shipped it in a cage to Frankfurt. And now to route it back to the UK it needs to go through customs and of course there’s a fee on that and no customs declaration attached because it’s a UK domestic package! It’s gone basically.Fortunately only £65 but it’s a shit show which certainly doesn’t do my reputation as a seller any good.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2021, 07:51:44 am
content: That’s weird. Was it to NI?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2021, 07:53:07 am
content: Nope. London to Nottingham.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2021, 08:00:43 am
content: We use UPS for domestic and international- not had a problem since 1/1/2021.Take it it’s impossible to get hold of a rep to sort out the mess..

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2021, 08:05:41 am
content: Got hold of one but she doesn't understand the problem. I've written the delivery off. Will have to eat the cost I think. It's costing me more time being on the phone and dealing with itWill have to try a respectable courier next time, like Hermes or Yodel

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2021, 08:14:01 am
content: Also been using Hermes for lower value items - 100% success rate so far. Bulk upload tools are pretty good. Might even give them ago for EU.Yodel I won’t touch with a barge pole since their guy stole a monitor last summer (on CCTV!). Also got a great video of yodel chap sorting his parcels - throwing out the contents of his car boot onto our car park, sorting them, then throwing back in.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2021, 08:17:52 am
content: Yeah I was joking on Yodel.I send most small value items via Hermes and they have been quite reliable so far to be fair and there's a drop off shop over the road from me which is convenient.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2021, 04:18:32 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 03, 2021, 07:53:07 amI guess it was handled by one of those Londoners who think anything north of Watford is a foreign country.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2021, 04:42:33 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 03, 2021, 04:18:32 pmSounds like some shipping routes went via EU hops in the past, even if they didn't need to technically - probably a hub and spoke network issue that will now have to be changed.Just write it down as another benefit of freedom!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2021, 04:47:48 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 03, 2021, 04:18:32 pmOh the badlands you mean?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2021, 04:38:28 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 03, 2021, 07:49:00 amThat's stupid. It's the courier's fault. Brexit or no-Brexit. Go after them!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2021, 04:55:09 pm
content: Oh completely. They said they’re still trying to deliver it but it hasn’t moved for a week. So I said I’d hit them with moneyclaim if it’s not returned to sender or delivered within 7 days.

author: Keith956
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2021, 07:52:36 am
content: The USPS must be a major contributor to climate change with their ludicrous routing of deliveries. Here's an example, this was a $10 part I ordered from the US. It went halfway across the US in the wrong direction before it made it over here:2 Feb 202111:08amDelivered2 Feb 20219:01amOut for Delivery1 Feb 20218:42pmIn Transit with Destination Carrier28 Jan 20215:35pmShipped from the Global Shipping Center to International DestinationErlanger, Kentucky 41025-250127 Jan 20211:13pmCustoms Documentation and LabelingErlanger, Kentucky 41025-250127 Jan 202112:16pmProcessing at the Global Shipping CenterErlanger, Kentucky 41025-250125 Jan 20216:07amArrived at the Global Shipping Center - DELIVEREDERLANGER, KY 4102524 Jan 202111:58pmIn Transit - PROCESSED THROUGH USPS FACILITYCINCINNATI, OH 4523523 Jan 20213:43amIn Transit - ARRIVE USPS FACILITYALBANY, GA 3170123 Jan 20213:29amIn Transit - ARRIVE USPS FACILITYALBANY, GA 3170122 Jan 20216:48pmIn Transit - PROCESSED THROUGH USPS FACILITYTALLAHASSEE, FL 3230120 Jan 202110:32pmIn Transit - DEPART USPS FACILITYHARTFORD, CT 0610120 Jan 20216:46pmIn Transit - PROCESSED THROUGH USPS FACILITYHARTFORD, CT 0610120 Jan 20215:26pmIn Transit - DEPART POST OFFICECANTON, CT 0601920 Jan 20214:34pmIn Transit - USPS IN POSSESSION OF ITEMCANTON, CT 0601919 Jan 202111:26pmTracking Details Uploaded19 Jan 20216:26pmTracking Details Uploaded - SHIPPING LBL CREATED USPS AWAITS ITEMNEW HARTFORD, CT 0605719 Jan 20216:40pmTracking Details Uploaded - PRE-SHIPMENT INFO SENT USPS AWAITS ITEMNEW HARTFORD, CT 0605719 Jan 202111:26pm

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2021, 08:56:24 am
content: They probably thought it was a postal vote