DIY Kits - selling - legal stuff etc. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 11:12:15 am
content: Hey there!When thinking about a little project of mine, I remembered seeing a few of Dave's videos on selling PCBs as DIY kits.Since the project may be of interest for a small number of people out there, I thought about not keeping it to just myself. Making a complete commercial product is out of the question, for reasons like all the legal hassle to go through, which is bad on its own, but especially considering the "niche" aspect of the project: It's an extension to an old keyboard, as in, music, of which only so many are still around & in working condition. And that I'm one guy doing it in his spare time.So I thought, hey, I could make a DIY kit out of it. But since not all musicians are solder-happy, I'd have to at least pre-assemble stuff like SMD parts.So - how much, if any, are you usually allowed to pre-assemble, to still be able to sell this as a DIY kit legally?And, how "friendly" are the regulations really, compared to "a real product", like FCC and the likes?Please do mention different country's rules. I'm EU based, but may sell globally.Feel free to add any other sorts of comments highlighting important concerns for such an undertaking!Thanks,Steve

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 11:26:54 am
content: Quote from: TinkeringSteve on January 15, 2013, 11:12:15 amThere is no answer to that. Which means, it doesn't matterQuoteI've sold my fully assembled and tested uCurrent into every country on the planet, and have resellers in three countries (US, Germany, Singapore).Not one of them gives a toss about any regulations.QuoteThere is nothing to worry about, just do it. Unless of course your product is mains powered, then it gets a bit trickier.And of course, people will jump in with all sorts of talk about what's technically legal, blah blah, but it really doesn't matter.Do you think any of those fully assembled boards sold by the likes of Sparkfun and Adafruit et.al have regulatory approval?Dave.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 11:59:02 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 15, 2013, 11:26:54 amUntil you find a pack of lawyers on your doorstep. I'd at least investigate whether the product doesn't infringe patents and strictly adhere to safety standards. Velleman is a pretty big DIY kits seller but many of their kits which are meant to be connected to the mains don't meet the safety standards. IMHO this is pretty bad because one would expect DIY kits to be thouroughly tested (*) and safe.(*) Before putting a kit on the market you may want to build 50 yourself to see whether the design is reproducable. Prototypes have a habbit of working fine but that doesn't mean that every copy of a circuit will work as expected.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 12:08:09 pm
content: yep I would also sell them assembled and tested for some timethe time necessary to test the prototypes before selling them as a kit.it depends if the kit is rather complex or not.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 12:39:36 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 15, 2013, 11:59:02 amPure FUD.Name one DIY kit producer that's happened too?It's a simple fact that if everyone worried about all the potential legal issues, the DIY hardware, hacker, maker, and electronics kit business that's been around since before I was born would be non-existent.Spending huge $ getting a product certified to any standard does not keep lawyers off your doorstop. Anyone is free at any time to sue you for absolutely anything!Just produce your kit and forget about all the legal nonsense, really.QuoteNOOOOOOO!To spend time on such a thing is useless folly.QuoteOf course, that is only natural, and best practice. Mostly only applies to mains powered products though.Dave.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 12:53:02 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 15, 2013, 12:39:36 pm..as would many small companies and pretty much anyone who makes 1-offs or very low volumes. And pretty much anything you can buy on Ebay from China.There are people out here who do nothing but worry about red tape - everyone else just gets on with making stuff.Unless you kill someone or really piss off a competitor, you are too small for anyone to care.

author: Harvs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 01:00:30 pm
content: QuoteI've wondered this myself. For example I'm going to put up the schematics to a project I'm doing on my website. But then I wondered, it uses an idea that I got from reading dozens of schematics from 1970s HP, Tek and Fluke test gear. Sure it seems like a common enough circuit configuration... But I got it from a actual commercial product. I guess I could just go look up what patents are against the products and whether any of them cover it even remotely.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 01:27:54 pm
content: Quote from: Harvs on January 15, 2013, 01:00:30 pmThe nature of how patents are written ensures that youwilleventually find one that could potentially cover your product/idea.So you either ignore it completely and get on with your business, or you quit the business entirely and go bush.And once again, it comes down to the fact that anyone, at any time, and for any reason, can sue you for anything! Once you realise that fact, then you stop worrying about whether or not you are going to be sued for every little thing you do.And any patent holder can sue you at any time for even the remotest sniff that your product/idea is somehow covered under their patent.But they won't because:a) what Mike said, you are too small to matterb) it costs money to sue someone. A full patent law suit costs at a minimum, several million dollars. Just getting your patent lawyer to write a nasty threatening letter will cost several thousand dollars. That several thousand dollars would barely cover any profit based royalty commission they were able to dupe you into paying on your "wildly successful" DIY kit that sold a few thousand. In theextremely rareinstance you do get a nasty letter for patent infringement, it's usually a C&D letter, and you can simply shut up shop and be done with it all.And as I mentioned in a similar thread on this. Getting your product certified, and having liability insurance doesabsolutely nothingto protect you from personal criminal liability in case your Furby comes alive and kills someone. So once again, once you come to terms with that fact, you stop worrying about it and simply get on with it.Did you know that even working for your employer under their instruction, guidance, and checks, you can still be held personally criminally liable for any aspect of your design work? Scary Huh?Dave.

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 01:31:30 pm
content: No, no, it's no mains stuff.I hope to be able to run off the power the keyboard delivers for expansion modules alone (although I have to figure out how much that might be from poorly scanned schematics from the net) , or if necessary, a little external wall wart or something.And I don't think there will be any copyright issues, I'm not copying anything.The worst part is getting a not too pricey, good enough quality, and then fitting, case for it (has to fit in the keyboard's slot, around a card edge-connecting PCB with 2x14 "pins" on a 0.125" grid - and I have to saw 2 rather delicate slits into the PCB edge, for the positioning "walls" within the connector).Well if there are so many people around selling kits, I guess one little guy more won't make bored lawyers get off the couch :-D

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 02:02:06 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 15, 2013, 01:27:54 pmI am in business for over 15 years and I had a few minor legal problems. The chances are slim but they are there and its better to be prepared for letters that are intended to make you really scared without a real reason.I agree that in most cases the big firms won't care what you are selling. Still, over here most companies have their legal bills paid by an insurance company. So having a lawyer write a letter is virtually free for them. If they twist the facts a bit you may even find yourself in court unless you pay for a lawyer or get acquinted with the law in order to defend yourself. When insurance companies find out the claim of their client is false they usually back off quickly. But that takes writing a letter with verifiable facts and proper legal terms.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 03:09:04 pm
content: If you are at all concerned the only check you need to make is do you have any legal insurance, here in the UK it comes with many bank accounts and credit cards as well as house insurance, as long as it can be counted as a hobby and not a commercial venture yo are covered if a lawyer from somewhere rears his ugly head just point him to your insurance company he will soon slink off.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 03:22:26 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on January 15, 2013, 03:09:04 pmI wonder, how is this even worked out? If you're selling kits, it's commercial. But it may not be high volume. To argue what is right, or what is literal?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 03:27:24 pm
content: Istr reading recently ( I think in the wake of the scan+email scammers) someone did an analysis of a large number of patent troll cases - ones that settled, went to court and ones that were ignored, and found that on avarage, simply ignoring them was the least expensive outcome.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 03:30:15 pm
content: Quote from: 8086 on January 15, 2013, 03:22:26 pmThe distinction between trade and hobby will vary a lot by country and by the reason fpr asking. I'd be surprised if any normal domestic legal cover would cover something outside of normal domestic activities.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 03:41:17 pm
content: I think it depends greatly on particular country you operate in.In my country for example it's far easier to shut down a small business by sending "a hint" to IRS rather than playing with patent law or safety approvals on the item. The thing with my country is that mandatory taxes for a businesses are so high that virtually everyone uses some workarounds and as they used to say in Soviet Union "point at a man, we will find a paragraph for him". You can hide from military service (when it was mandatory), police, jail, court, but you cannot hide from IRS :/We have had cases similar to 'patent trolls' but those buys were using company name closely resembling government-founded agencies and demanded payment for processing of informations. And small businesses often paid fearing the potential lawsuit. If you are getting patent trolled, just do nothing. But you need to watch out, because in case you REALLY infringe something, someone may pick on you.And if you are living in a country which doesn;t give a shit about patent laws and other stuff like that, then feel free to do as you please...

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 04:22:02 pm
content: Quote from: TinkeringSteve on January 15, 2013, 11:12:15 amIf you think it's a rock-solid design why not let a few hobby end-users test it for you and give you feedback; you never know if it's popular you might need to teach your dog to solder to meet the demand ;-)

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 04:56:27 pm
content: What are some design tips for selling stuff that is wired to mains wiring?I know several, such as spacing high voltage traces out properly, using XY rated capacitors if necessary, using a transformer from a reputable supplier, using a fuse, making sure to use earth ground.What else?Or is selling stuff that plugs into AC just a bad idea in general?

author: alanb
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 05:03:04 pm
content: QuoteTip 1 - Make sure that you have product/public liability insurance.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 05:44:25 pm
content: Forget about liability insurance. The premium is so high you won't make a profit. If you want to guard yourself against liability claims then you should setup a business entity. If you are adhering to the law, rules and regulations you are pretty safe against claims. However the business entity could go bankrupt.

author: tld
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 05:54:04 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 15, 2013, 12:39:36 pmThis is a good point. You can't fully protect yourself against any such thing.And - like the others here say - it doesn't matter.I'd just like to point out one side of *why* it doesn't matter.I'm still fairly young (30-something), but in my experience with business and regulatory matters, most people are actually not evil twats looking to burn you. They're just not. And why would they be? Hurting you rarely gains them anything, and it's not how most people wants to be, or be seen.Empirical evidence time...I had an encounter with the radio-regulatory people in a country once, due to interference from a device we'd sent a customer (but not made). The device was actually within spec, but caused some issue for a receiver, and the device had actually been hunted down because of this. Everyone went "Uh, oh!", but I just pulled out an old receiver, reproduced the problem locally, sent graphs back to him. He seemed happy because he'd met someone on our end that cared about the problem, grabbed hold of it, and spoke the same language (radio) as him while looking for a fix. We found a more suitable device, dropped of the device and some frequency graphs with them, and by the end of the week, everyone was happy. Especially me, that got an open invitation to drop by the techs home for a cup of coffee, and finally get my paperwork done to get certified HAM-operator.Lesson of the thing? They weren't "out to get us", but they cared about getting the issue resolved. Meeting someone that also cared, made them relax, and it turned into more of a cooperation thing than opposing fronts.Back to DIY-kits, there's generally three concerns people seem have:* General safety of the kit* EMI-issues* Business-aspects, patents and the likeFor all three of those topics, the same really does apply. Do your best and - if there are issues - take them seriously, and cooperatively work things out.If someone points out a safety-hazard with your product, that you hadn't thought of, I'd be willing to bet good money that most DIY kit-makers would listen attentively and see if they issue could be resolved or improved. No conflict as far as I can see. Nobody wants dead users.EMI-issues? Take them seriously if you get a request, try to keep an eye on good design, and if you can, check out frequencies you worry about, especially on high power rails and the like.Business-wise? Sure, if you try to make an exact copy of a product, you might get issues, but that's not typically what you're doing. It's unlikely, but if some lawyer sends you an angry letter, don't reply back in the same tone, but don't fall over with fear either. Just reply back asking if they could explain what their concern is, to see if things can be worked out.Inventing some numbers, it wouldn't surprise me if 99% of small kit-makers never get any trouble, and if 99% of those that do can be worked out fairly easily.tld

author: alanb
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 05:55:56 pm
content: QuoteI agree that its better to set up a business entity for the venture, but I would still have insurance. If there is not a reasonable expectation of suficient profit to cover the insurance and the costs of setting up and running the business entity it's probably not worth bothering selling the stuff.

author: tld
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 06:06:59 pm
content: Quote from: ftransform on January 15, 2013, 04:56:27 pmProbably a good thing to not set it as a goal at least?That is - when possible - perhaps easier/safer to design it to be run off of batteries (also known as wall-wart *caugh*), take the proper safety-percausions anyway (fuse, overvoltage, etc), and then just live happily ever after?I can't speak for all of the world, but at least in the Europe (EU and the rest), you're required to be CE-marked, and have documentation to back it up. You can self-certify the thing, but urgh, it's such a huge topic.Note that CE-cert applies to non-AC-connected as well, thus sell components, not product.tld

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 06:25:17 pm
content: Quote from: 8086 on January 15, 2013, 03:22:26 pmIf the kits are not your main source of income and you are not selling large quantities and making a big profit and the item is a direct result of you hobby it is not a commercial venture. Also if the turnover is lower than that which requires notifying the tax office it is not a commercial venture.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2013, 06:44:37 pm
content: It would be interesting to see what different legislation around the world would have to say about kits when it comes to mains operated stuff.Your provide the parts, schematics and a well worded warning, they end user builds it, so is that the out? You didn't manufacture the device that burned their house down they did

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2013, 11:03:53 am
content: I think the way the law in Poland would work in such case (never heard if it actually happening, most kits are battery- or stock wallwart-powered) is that plaintiff would have to prove that it was designer's fault that the device killed/injured the hobbyist, and not the hobbyist messing something up. And it would be really hard to prove, because in most cases the designer is experienced in electronics, and the hobbyist has very little to prove that he knew what he was doing (even more so if the hobbyist cannot testify for obvious reasons).Also, I think that in reality in most cases someone get hurt it would REALLY be fault of the hobbyist, not the designer. It's far easier to accidentally short something to mains by placing pcb on something conductive, probe slipping from a lead, bad insulation of joints where mains can be present, etc and those are caused by assembler's lack of experience, ignorance, oversight or simply bad luck, not by bad design.And one more thing: not every place is USA, where u can sue anybody for anything. You really need to have solid evidence and A LOT of time and money if you want to sue anyone in Poland over such thing as bad electronic kit design (maybe apart from the situation where someone actually died, because this is obviously pursued ex officio). There would have to be one or (more likely) more independent expertises required all stating that design was indeed at 100% fault for the injury.Bottom line: you cannot really get someone (at least not someone low profile) convicted for bad design without enormous time&money expense.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 16, 2013, 11:15:02 am
content: Quote from: ftransform on January 15, 2013, 04:56:27 pmAvoid if at all possible. Use a plugpack, or an already type approved supply module with direct IEC input.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 16, 2013, 11:16:30 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 15, 2013, 05:44:25 pmThat will not help you at all in a criminal liability case. e.g. if your widget kills someone.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 16, 2013, 11:20:34 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on January 15, 2013, 06:44:37 pmYes, that's how it's worked in Oz for many generations. And the same in the US and UK AFAIK. And AFAIK, no magazine or kit supplier has ever been sued or heald criminally liable due to a kit failure, or someone following magazine kit instructions that has caused personal injury or death. And yes, I have heard of people dying here in Oz over the years.Dave.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2013, 12:20:21 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 16, 2013, 11:16:30 amYou snipped the most important part to guard against that:If you are adhering to the law, rules and regulations you are pretty safe against claimsIf a car meets safety regulations the seller or maker is very unlikely to be held responsible if someone tries hi-speed parking against a tree. There may be an investigation with many questions to answer though.

author: lapm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2013, 07:14:17 pm
content: Im not a lawyer, nor do i know law very well, so take my advice with hint of salt... Besides different countries have different laws... What works me, might not work for you.My personal experience (i did work for company that sold electronics kits and components), is stay away from mains power. You save many extra troubles from yourself... Its customers problem get proper power for itAs for my country (Finland), its usually enough that somewhere in kits instruction sheet has mentioned something like: This kit is meant for electronics professionals that know what theyre doing...Few extra warning about dangers of electricity might help as well...As long as its your customer that builds it, its not your fault they burn a house with it...So sell board + components + instructions.. and you should be fairly safe as seller. Microcontroller is still component even if you programm it..

author: qno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2013, 07:41:35 pm
content: Just do it, you will learn a lot along the way.If it runs on < 12V dont worry about radiation.If it runs on a battery dont worry about conductive emissions.What is it?

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2013, 11:18:26 pm
content: I would say if a project involves radio transmission in any way, use a pre-made module that has been certified for public use rather than build your own transmission device. In the US even ISM band devices (2.4GHz) have to be FCC certified. If the module is software configurable, find out what the maximum output rating in that band is and don't exceed it. I think for things like wireless routers and such in the US, 300mw is the limit, but some open source firmwares allow you to crank up to 500mw.

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2013, 08:17:43 am
content: There's a petition regarding relief from patent trolls at Whitehouse.Gov:https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/make-patent-trolls-pay-all-costs-associated-their-frivolous-lawsuits-if-they-lose/gWPpVYMtIf they get 100K signatures by 2/16/2013 they are required (by their own rules) to investigate and respond. Might not amount to anything, but might help publicize the issue. There are already over 2K signatures on the first day.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2013, 09:36:19 am
content: Making them pay if they lose is not enough to prevent the shakedown tactics. They need to be made to pay a substantial advance sum into court before any action can be taken.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2013, 10:14:14 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 18, 2013, 09:36:19 amThat would be nice, but I suspect you can't ever legislate against a simple threatening letter from a laywer. Often that enough to scare the little players into folding or paying up.Dave.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2013, 12:24:26 pm
content: The problem lies at the door of the US patent office and quite likely those of other countries as well for allowing such patents to be made without proper rigorous examination for prior art etc.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2013, 01:55:09 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 18, 2013, 10:14:14 amTrue but if the potential victims knew the troll would have to gamble significant funds to take it further, a lot more would tell them to GFThemselves

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2013, 02:02:13 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on January 16, 2013, 11:18:26 pmAFAIK it's 1 Watt power, 4 Watt EIRP for a 6 dB "omni" ... and the sky's the limit as far as EIRP is concerned for point to point as long as you drop 1 dBm in power for every 3 dBi in antenna gain. The US is paradise compared to the EU ... 100 mW EIRP period, that's it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2013, 03:43:06 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 18, 2013, 09:36:19 amOver here the legal system works that way. Both parties have to pay a percentage of the value they fight over to the justice department. The party who loses must pay the costs for the winning party (up to some limit). This prevents people from taking cases to court that can easely be settled outside court.

author: tld
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 06:21:13 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on January 18, 2013, 02:02:13 pmNot so. It's a little bit more complicated.For 2.4Ghz, you're not getting anywhere above 100 mW EIRP, that's true, but also a good thing in my book. 2.4Ghz is simply "Busy, please seek bandwidth elsewhere".For 5Ghz though, it's a completely different ballgame. For wireless networks, 5725–5795 MHz and 5815–5850, you're allowed 4W EIRP.Now, for point-to-point links in those two frequency ranges, things get really interesting. You're allowed to put 1W to the antenna, and have up to200 WEIRP. That's right,200 000 mW, EIRP.Note to those not used to radio; For this, there's a *HUGE* difference between W and W EIRP, and you really need to read up if you don't know what that difference is, before you use this.I've *also* simplified things though.This is fairly new, it's been implemented in Norway, which I think is simply following EU agreements, but might not have been implemented everywhere yet, so doublecheck with your local pencil-pushers before you do stupid things, to avoid getting visits from them after doing stupid things.tld(source, in Norwegian for maximum reader-discomfort:http://lovdata.no/for/sf/sd/xd-20120119-0077.html)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2013, 07:36:44 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on January 15, 2013, 03:09:04 pmAs soon as your making stuff to sell you are classed as a business which is not covered by home insurance that gives you legal cover. You can get product insurance, last time I inquired it was £500, of course don't tell your home insurer your "working" from home as it does not matter unless you want to pay them more, so long as you can say it's a hobby too and basically providing your not modifying your house or getting in manufacturing machinery.