Toner Transfer Printer Resolution - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Sam__
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 03:50:33 pm
content: Just got a new laser printer - Brother HD2240D - mainly for use in PCB creation using the toner transfer method. I've read articles and blog posts where people say the higher the DPI (dots per inch) the better but never a direct comparison between component footprint quality.I have chosen a selection of footprints and printed them off in 300dpi, 600dpi and 'HQ1200' (2400x600) modes. Then scanned them in. I may take pictures with my camera to get a real close up of the quality.There is a notable difference between 300dpi and 600dpi straight away with the rounding of the pads of the SOIC and gets bad when you get into the QSOP region. Then the 2400x600 shows itself in the LGA pattern with the pads being much more even in size. But how will that transfer to the PCB etching quality?I will be doing some tests of paper types and quality of transfer at the different resolutions next week. Shout if there are any patterns you'd like compared. Any recommendations on different papers to try would be great. I've always used magazine paper but have had very mixed results.

author: chrisbrown
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 04:37:37 pm
content: Please report back if you find some paper that works well. My old printer was a Lexmark that loved that cheap semi-gloss magazine paper. But then I dropped it and had to buy a new one - got a Brother HL2270DW, nearly identical to yours. Unfortunately it jams whenever I feed it that stuff so it's been relegated to office duty until I can find something that works.

author: Sam__
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 04:46:13 pm
content: Quote from: chrisbrown on May 14, 2014, 04:37:37 pmInteresting. I have been using a Brother HL-1240 up until now and it has had no issues with jamming so I'm not expecting this one to jam, now I will be wary. I will see how many different types of paper I can test. Any suggestions on what to try? I currently have a variety of magazine papers but not much else.

author: chrisbrown
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 05:12:00 pm
content: No suggestions I'm afraid. My best results on this printer have been with ordinary A4 and they didn't turn out very well. After fixing all those jams I pretty much gave up on the P in PCB. Now my prototypes are either perfboard or deadbug.

author: tonyarkles
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 05:32:55 pm
content: Quote from: chrisbrown on May 14, 2014, 04:37:37 pmI have the exact same printer, and sort of the same issue feeding magazine/brochure paper into it. One trick that I've found is to use a nice sharp paper cutter to ensure that the edges are parallel. I usually use a 3" strip and feed it through the envelope feeder. It also seems to be sensitive to insertion depth on the manual feeder, sometimes it takes a couple of tries to get it inserted *just right* so that it doesn't just flip to "Error"

author: hlavac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 05:49:13 pm
content: Give photo method a shot, much better detail, and in my opinion easier and more reliable than toner transfer if you use proper tools.Tips for good results:- Use pcb material with preapplied photoresist (quick)- Print on tracing paper (cheap, works well)- Work in darkness under yellow LED strip light, avoid stray light- Use a piece of glass or perspex fixture to hold the pattern flat toner down on the resist covered pcb- Use UV source that is fairly directional (array of UV LEDs)

author: Sam__
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 06:07:16 pm
content: Quote from: hlavac on May 14, 2014, 05:49:13 pmIf I get enough time/can source the tools I may do a comparison. That is most likely if toner transfer ends up not being good enough.Question: I have some CFL bulbs and high power LEDs. Do they output enough UV for use as a UV source?

author: Sam__
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 06:08:41 pm
content: Papers to try at the moment:Glossy MagazineMatt MagazineStandard Printer PaperBaking Parchment

author: hlavac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 06:49:45 pm
content: Quote from: Sam__ on May 14, 2014, 06:07:16 pmI doubt it.I even tried UV CFL for black light, it was fun but wavelength was too short for the photoresist.In the end I have made a 16x10 5mm UV LED array on 1cm grid, and it is a massive overkill in terms of power (exposition time in seconds), but the coverage is fairly even and I can hold it quite close (about 7cm)You may get good results with 8x5 UV LEDs, 2cm apart grid at some 15cm

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 07:30:00 pm
content: Quote from: Sam__ on May 14, 2014, 06:08:41 pmYou can use a full sheet of paper for TT.But often your PCB is small and full sheet of your precious transfer paper(once found) seems like a waste.First print image on plain paper then adhere a sized portion over that image and print again.You have to take notice of paper orientation for the second pass and find a suitable process to stick you papers together. Use your printers flattest paper path and manual feed.I use a handheld adhesive film gun that leaves a thin film that comes off a tape.An advantage is the carrier paper, has been "stabilized" in the first pass.For the transfer process I pass board and paper through a laminator twice, then let cool.

author: Sam__
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 07:47:40 pm
content: Yeah, well said. I've got some kapton tape for that very purpose.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 07:51:21 pm
content: Quote from: Sam__ on May 14, 2014, 03:50:33 pmUnfortunately, being 2400x600, you still get relatively poor results horizontally.I'm currently experimenting with a 1200x1200 DPI printer with good results.

author: Sam__
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 07:55:16 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 14, 2014, 07:51:21 pmThat is true... but then again the printer was only £18 delivered and my previous was 300dpi. So a big upgrade!

author: Sam__
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 07:55:55 pm
content: Quote from: Sam__ on May 14, 2014, 07:55:16 pm

author: Sam__
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 07:56:24 pm
content: Quote from: Sam__ on May 14, 2014, 07:55:55 pm

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 08:06:48 pm
content: Quote from: Sam__ on May 14, 2014, 07:56:24 pmCan't argue at that price, no, mine cost £70 (now £60, should've waited a couple weeks).QuoteI'm using toner transfer on some spare glossy photo paper, works pretty well. Having etchant issues at the moment (trying to be cheap, using patio cleaner (HCl) and H2O2, doesn't keep well) so I've only got my first etch to show, and it's not really anything exciting:Some minor transfer failure there and a mix of over and under etching due to paper remnants.No scans or photos of trial prints, but as you can see it did a perfect job with a 0.65mm (not 0.635mm, that's TI for you) pitch SSOP.I may do a few test prints to scan in later. E: Or perhaps not, this old clunker of a scanner is only 600dpi anyway.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 15, 2014, 03:00:12 am
content: Quote from: Sam__ on May 14, 2014, 03:50:33 pmQuote from: chrisbrown on May 14, 2014, 04:37:37 pmIsn't the toner supposed to be an issue with those cheaper Brother printers? Back when I bought my 2270 the accepted wisdom was they were no good because the toner (a) required too high a temperature to transfer easily and (b) flowed too much if you got it too hot.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2014, 05:48:55 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on May 15, 2014, 05:44:56 amAs a counter point, although I only do TT for masking pads prior to painting with Vitrea for soldermask, using any of my Brother lasers I have is a recipe for failure, the toner does not transfer well at all. Using the old rubbish OKI laser I have in the shed works much better.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 15, 2014, 07:17:30 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on May 15, 2014, 05:44:56 amSorry, I should probably have been more specific - the stuff I read referred specifically to the HL-2270 & others (e.g. HL-2240) which use the same toner cartridges (TN-2230 & TN-2250), not the HL-2040 which uses a different cartridge (TN-2025). Looking at the MSDSs, they use different toner compositions - the TN-2025 uses what looks to be a fairly standard toner composition with a melting point of 120oC, while the TN-2230 & TN-2250 use a different mix with a "confidential" polyester resin and the melting point is "unknown".It also used to be the case that you couldn't use normal laser transparency sheets in a HL-2270 (though I believe suitable ones are pretty standard now) - they melted & you were up for a new drum unit (I know someone who tried!), which suggests the drum unit runs much hotter than normal. The cartridge refillers I've talked to won't touch the TN-2230/50 except to recycle the carcass - they say nobody makes the right toner. And, while a few places list generic/refilled TN-2230/50 cartridges in their price lists, nowhere I've tried has been able to actually supply them...That said, Ihaveseen some people say the HL-2270 works for them, though they never give much detail. It'd be interesting to learn if anyone here has got a HL-2240 or 2270 to work for toner transfer.(edit: The stuff above about refills was based on what I saw & was told when I last looked mid-late last year. Checking again now there's a few fairly reputable places selling refill kits, so there might be suitable toner available now.)

author: kile
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2014, 11:09:06 am
content: Quote from: tautech on May 14, 2014, 07:30:00 pmThat's what I do too, except that I don't use paper at all. I use Press & Peel blue transfer film. I first tried with a few kinds of glossy paper, but it was always a mess. So, I tried P&P and haven't had a problem in 2 years. I've printed on Canon iR C2380 and HP Laserjet 1300n. Both worked out fine except that the HP toner is a bitch to remove afterwards. I had to scrub it off with acetone, and I even left some spots because I couldn't be bothered with it. Canon was much easier to remove.

author: Sam__
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2014, 10:31:41 am
content: I was unaware of the possible toner issues. Will see how it turns out. The rest of the equipment is ready to be taken to the lab.Might find time to do some tests toward the end of the week and maybe get a PCB made over the weekend. Need to design something first. Got a few projects waiting for PCBs.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2014, 12:51:15 pm
content: Quote from: Sam__ on May 20, 2014, 10:31:41 amJust don't be using that Ferric Chloride anywhere near that wooden bench top :-)

author: Sam__
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2014, 01:00:52 pm
content: Quote from: sleemanj on May 20, 2014, 12:51:15 pmYeah, don't worry about that. I do it all on a plastic sheet in tupperware.

author: Mosaic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 12:30:59 am
content: Siliconized 'Bakewell' baking parchment taped to regular A4 and nitric acid etchant @ 1150 SG.

author: Sam__
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 09:43:34 pm
content: Just ran a very quick tester and got reasonably good transfer with matt-ish magazine paper and the Brother 2240D. 0.2mm traces all came out correctly so I'm pretty happy with it. I didn't etch the board as I'm going to use it to test a bunch of paper types. Things are looking hopeful.Pics to come when I do more testing, sorry I didn't get any this time.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 12:39:27 am
content: Interesting to know it worked despite my doubts, and 8mils is pretty damn good for toner transfer. It'll be interesting to see what the practical limit is when etching. FWIW 8-10mils is about my limit for photoetching (depending on the board/emulsion used), though I've got a pretty crap setup.Looking forward to the etch results & pics.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 04:56:18 am
content: Quote from: Sam__ on May 21, 2014, 09:43:34 pmThey may look OK but how they etch is another matter.Examine tracks with magnification looking for porosity in the transferred toner.Do a small trial board to be sure and get the etch process perfected.A very smooth paper may help results, but DPI is the key.The printer I had used for some time just bid the job @ 600 DPI but when I needed to go to 12 mil I had to use my 1200 DPI OKI and had to start again to find a combination that worked.I had to go away from glossy(adhesive label backing paper) to a very slightly rough paper to manage the smudging. Lost the previously clean transfer "peel", had to soak paper to remove it, but the results were mint.

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 12:09:45 pm
content: I'm using a Lexmark C543dn (1200x1200dpi) and blue press-n-peel film from ebay.0.8mm pin pitch is about the limit and large filled areas of toner tend to be printed a bit thin (nothing a touch up with a sharpie can't fix).Probably the most annoying thing about the lexmark is that you can't reuse half a sheet of press-n-peel because it tends to cause a jam in the printer. The sheets only cost about 2$ each but I still often wait until i have a few jobs lined up so i can arrange them on the same sheet for printing.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 12:24:51 pm
content: QuoteTry printing to plain paper first then adhere a cut portion of p&p over that print and print again to the adhered p&p portion.

author: Sam__
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 04:18:05 pm
content: This test was done using HQ1200 quality and matt magazine paper.Printer onto matt magazine paper.Laminator - ran it through about 10-15 times.SoakAfter removing paper - looks very good. All traces transferred perfectly.Etched - Ferric Chloride - ~17mins with a little agitation of the liquid.Cleaned using acetone.Decided to print off onto clear acetate to see what the toner distribution was like. It's not great. Any ideas on how to improve this would be very useful.Overall the process worked and looked a little better after tinning but the printer seems to be very uneven in its printing of the toner. This means the traces and pads end up looking mottled and uneven.

author: Sam__
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 08:31:21 am
content: The acetate was the same print quality as the other papers. It was just the easiest to take a clear picture of to show the toner distribution. I have not yet used it in the toner transfer method.The baking parchment I tried (generic brand) did not print well. The toner did not stick so the design was completely patchy and far from usable.I will look through my printer quality settings to try and find a way to increase the amount of toner put down.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 09:06:58 am
content: Quote from: Sam__ on May 23, 2014, 08:31:21 amFWIW, these are the printer settings I use on my HL-2270DW - on a Mac, and for printing on tracing paper for UV transfer, so YMMV:Media type: thicker paperResolution: 600 DPIToner save mode: offGraphics mode: graphicsImprove print output: improve toner fixing1200DPI makes little difference for me - if anything, the print is slightly less dark/solid. I'll try to take a photo of one of my transfers later, though it's a bit difficult as the rough surface makes it look much more patchy in photographs than it really is.Which leads me to ask - does your acetate print really look that ratty in real life?edit: Here's a very average photo of a very average print of mine to give an idea of coverage. Apart from the blob in the upper-right (first print on new toner cart) and some poor coverage on the left & distortion around one IC (handling with damp fingers before printing), it's pretty good. Board size is ~60x50mm and tracks are mostly 12 or 16 mil.