Osciloscope recommendation - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: InTheVoid
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 03:15:17 pm
content: Hello!We had an Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 X-Series in our lab and it was really nice until it suddenly didn't boot anymore. I even looked at the forum with people with the same problem as me, and it seems like a firmware issue. The point is that Keysight wants to charge me more than a brand new osciloscope for the repair (very odd!). So I decided to search for another one.Ok, so I'm looking for an osciloscope in the same price range as the Agilent 2000X series, cheaper is possible.I usually deal with relatively low frequency signals (up to 1MHz).But it high PC integration is very much appreciated. For example, command the osciloscope from the PC, trigger, get data, etc. I also use Linux, so Linux compatibility is also appreciated.Four channels is a plus, but not mandatory. I will make my life easier though, so that should be considered into account.Big screen and good response time is also appreciated. Some osciloscopes annoy me for being too slow. Agilent 2000x like is good enough.I think that's it! Any suggestion would be appreciated.Thanks in advance!

author: ADT123
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 03:30:06 pm
content: I know not everyone here likes PC based scopes here but if you want a high level of integration with a PC and a large screen it could be the best option.I am biased but the PicoScope 2000 series offer similar specs to the 2000x but are lower cost and come with Linux software, drivers and SDK:https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2000/picoscope-2000-overview

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 04:12:54 pm
content: QuoteThe same problem here (also in Brazil !)https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oh-no!-i%27m-never-buying-any-agilent-keysight-equiment-ever-again!/EDIT: links too long, does not work.Use the search function with buying agilent keysight key words.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 05:29:57 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 11, 2016, 04:12:54 pmUse the url tag to insert the URL:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oh-no!-i'm-never-buying-any-agilent-keysight-equiment-ever-again!/Spoiler alert: Keysight fixed it but you have to go to Keysight in the US directly.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 07:19:06 pm
content: PM me, please.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 07:39:49 pm
content: Quote from: InTheVoid on October 11, 2016, 03:15:17 pmWelcome to the forumI can suggest two options for you, either a 2 channel with 16 Channel MSO like the SDS1000X+ series or a SDS2000X series which are available in both 2 and 4 channel models that are also 16 channel MSO capable.The SDS2000X series challenges all other scopes in this class with its 140 Mpts memory depth.Both these series are responsive scopes with no UI lag.http://www.siglentamerica.com/pd.aspx?tid=1&T=1I'm told by my factory sales manager that Brazil is a large market for their products however I couldn't find your local distributor on the Siglent "how to buy" websites but I can for you if required.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 07:43:41 pm
content: Stay away from USB-only scopes.Just buy a Rigol from the MSO1000Z series - it can be driven from the command line without any drivers (with SCPI over LXI) and it also have real panel with buttons and display to operate it manually. At its price, it's a steal. I'm not affiliated in any way with Rigol. Rigols support is also outstanding.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 08:20:24 pm
content: You are absolutely right, but why buy a higher priced brand when you need the scope mostly for under 1 MHz signals?Regarding the fan, indeed Rigol is not exactly quiet, but at the office we had a $10k+ Tektronix that was louder then my humble $0.4k Rigol.Don't know about "HP/Agilent/Keysight/Whatever name or personality/marketing problem disorder they might have" sound level thought, since I never have the opportunity to compare them directly.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 08:35:32 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on October 11, 2016, 07:43:41 pmThere's no way you can recommend replacement of a Agilent InfiniiVision with a MSO1000Z series IF you've read this:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 08:51:41 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on October 11, 2016, 08:20:24 pmEven when looking at low frequency signals it is nice to have a scope which works as advertised.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 09:20:19 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 11, 2016, 08:51:41 pmInteresting but OLD thread!Are whatever issues discussed in the thread still current, two years and several firmware upgrades later?I thought we had about wrapped up the discrepancies with the latest firmware.

author: chucksticks
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 10:04:38 pm
content: If voltage isn't too much of a concern, you can try the analog discovery 2:http://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/It works over PC/Mac/Linux in real-time and also can do logic analyzer and function generator work. You'll need to get an adapter for it that will give you 2 channels. I read that you can hook up multiples if you needed more channels but with the disadvantage of running multiple instances of the software. It starts at 279$ with just the module but you could get an academic discount.

author: bhensley
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 12:00:28 am
content: I recommend the (New) Tektronix TBS2072 Series for most hobby users. That series starts at 70MHz, 1GS/s, 20Mpts and has a bunch of options, and a 5 year warranty. Its right around the ~$1k range.If you want something a little cheaper (like chucksticks recommended), I would recommend checking out Digilent's Analog Discovery 2 100MS/s USB Oscilloscope. Its right around the ~$275 range.Best of luck finding a new scope.-Brian

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 12:20:37 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 12, 2016, 12:11:26 amI'd trust what it displays.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 09:38:20 am
content: Quote from: bhensley on October 12, 2016, 12:00:28 amYou mean the TBS2000 that has been discussed inthis threada while ago?I do wonder why you recommend a scope that was pretty much designed for the education market and comes with features like courseware, wifi (for wireless classroom communication) and TekVPI probe interface, all features that are generally worthless outside the classroom, for hobbyists. The specs look fine but this is a pretty much unproven scope, and if it is like other Tek scopes then it will be slow as wading through molasses. I think someone who had a chance to try it also found that not all functions are implemented.For a hobbyists who wants something better than a Rigol, I'd rather look at R&S ValueLine scopes (former Hameg).BTW: while it's fine for representatives of manufacturers posting here, it's expected that any affiliation has to be declared and made visible, if not then any offending account will get banned pretty quickly. Considering that you're displaying a Tek logo, is there something you want to tell us?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 09:58:47 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 12, 2016, 12:20:37 amExcept:a) It doesn't display very much at all (see review thread)b) It's new and unknown, unlike the Rigol which is owned by many thousands of people and has been studied and dissectedto deathon these forums and every last little defect discovered. The problem list is now very close to zero after the latest firmware update (What's left? The spelling mistake in the menu?)You talk about "trust" then quote a brand new device from an overpriced brand which has been a disaster in recent years. Makes no sense.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 10:13:13 am
content: Having own a few Teks I'd never go near another one. Even the old highly rated analogue units are complete bastards.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 10:24:44 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 12, 2016, 09:38:20 am+1.

author: lem_ix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 10:32:47 am
content: I'd second the R&S suggestion, got my hmo1524 after comparing to the dsox2000. Dave did a review on a newer model which is 2 channel only and there's a review by watt circuit of the hmo2024(older).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 10:50:44 am
content: Quote from: Karel on October 12, 2016, 10:24:44 amYep. R&S make some nice devices if you've got more than $400 to spend.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 11:42:17 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on October 11, 2016, 07:43:41 pmyeeeeah no.if your experience is some hantek or owon crap, fair enough.A picoscope works.Any picoscope lets you do things that you can get in an hardware scope over 3k, as an option of course. (like decoding anything different than uart/spi/i2c/can)And it works, not so well if you have a very crappy PC of course.Of course PC based scopes have other quirks, like requiring a PC to operate at all, or generally lesser isolation/protection.a rigol, especially a crappy low end one, is what i would stay away from. The OP should do that as well as he has a need for better tools

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 04:50:14 am
content: Anyone ever do a Rigol vs Siglent pros & cons??

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 05:16:59 am
content: Yes, last year, when I was looking for a scope. At that moment, nothing can beat the Rigol DS1054Z, so I bought one. I liked it so much that afterwards I also bought a Rigol DP832 Power Source, then a DG 4102 Arbitrary Waveform Generator. So far, no complains.This year I didn't looked, but I bet it's the same. Still, I would like to hear if anyone has different news for 2016.

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 05:21:38 am
content: I kinda was leaning towards Rigol, but from what I have read recently, Siglent seems to have passed them overall. At least for lower cost spectrum analyzers.Interestingly, one of the engineers that worked for Rigol now works for Siglent.Two things I don't like about Rigol;The fan is way too noisy, it only cools the PS which doesn't get that warm in the 1st place,Their scopes do not have separate vertical & horizontal controls for each channel.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 05:27:07 am
content: Quote from: videobruce on October 13, 2016, 05:21:38 amMore than just one.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 05:27:26 am
content: Quote from: videobruce on October 13, 2016, 04:50:14 amIs there even a notable difference? Both offer cheap bargain basement gear with OK (Rigol) to good (Siglent) hardware quality which will be riddled with firmware bugs when it comes to market, and these bugs may or may not be fixed in subsequent years.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 05:31:24 am
content: Isn't that the same as Keysight but without the expensive?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 06:10:44 am
content: Quote from: setq on October 13, 2016, 05:31:24 amAnd some LeCroy's.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 09:50:48 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 13, 2016, 05:27:26 amYou say that like the scopes are barely able to show wiggly lines on screen when they arrive. This is a long way from the truth.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 10:00:07 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 13, 2016, 09:50:48 amReally, stop that childish hyperbole, I said nothing of the sortAnd it doesn't exactly help your credibility here if you make stuff up as you go along.The reality is that both Siglent and Rigol give you roughly the same, which is a basic scope for little money. It will very likely be riddled with bugs when it comes to market, and luck (and the number of buyers complaining) will decide if and which bugs get fixed or not.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 10:37:46 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 13, 2016, 10:00:07 amFunny how many people never even notice them.

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 11:21:16 am
content: QuoteThey must be e-bay and/or Amazon buyers and/or sellers, they never seem to notice anything based on their reviews and the poorly composed ads themselves. If they own it, it usually automatically gets a five star review unless it arrived broken or shortly after.

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 11:25:14 am
content: The problem with all of them is getting thru Chinese managements thick skull (mostly their culture) to make product changes, starting with simple firmware fixes to fix poor menu structure which is all too common.Why do we need Chinese characters in the menu for North American & European models??

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 02:37:22 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 11, 2016, 08:35:32 pmVendors coming here to trash their competitors is a disgusting practice. tautech, please stop it.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 03:25:17 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on October 13, 2016, 05:16:59 amHow odd that you copied my shopping list! I'm thinking DG4162 but I already have the scope and the DP832 is up next.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 03:41:33 pm
content: Quote from: videobruce on October 13, 2016, 05:21:38 amI used to work in Silicon Gulch and engineers changed jobs by simply turning into the wrong driveway one morning. What's your point? Everybody works somewhere, until they work somewhere else. Engineers who design scopes probably migrate between companies that make scopes. Doesn't mean a thing!Gee, somewhere up above somebody was gushing over the R&S HMO 1524 and, horrors, it too DOESN'T have a pair of knobs per channel. It costs 6 times as much as the Rigol DS1054Z and it has the same UI (more or less). R&S with no per-channel knobs! To be fair, it looks like a very nice scope.http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO1524/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/The 1054 fan is pretty much a non issue if you have a high end desktop running (something with a 1000W PS) but it's pretty easy to change. Replacing the encoder with a detent style is also pretty straighforward. Neither mod is necessary.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 04:35:47 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 13, 2016, 03:25:17 pmFor the generator, Siglent has something in the same price range, but it was advertised as a 16 bits resolution instead of only 14 for Rigol. Also, the maximum sample speed is different, 300 Ms/s Siglent vs 500 Ms/s Rigol. Siglent has also an interpolation mode advertised as 1.2 Gs/s with 4 x interpolation, but I didn't get into details, so I'm not sure which one is better.If you choose a Rigol from DG4000 series, I heard that the current firmware was not yet hacked.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 04:42:41 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 13, 2016, 10:37:46 amYeah, that's why we have all these endless bug-related Rigol threads plus a very long thread showing how to *not* design a DSO, because hardly anyone noticed the shitloads of issuesYou couldn't make this shit up....

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 05:05:47 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 13, 2016, 04:42:41 pmNo, we have endless bug-related Rigol threads because two or three people here can't see the bigger picture and when anybody discovers a minor problem they'll repeat it endlessly.The big picture is that most of these problems weren't noticed or reported here until many months after the product launch. After the initial report they became "OMG the sky is falling!!!!!" to two or three forum members. Everybody else could see the 'scope totally kicked ass for $400.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 05:17:55 pm
content: Put this on your wall:"The shittyness of a crap tool often only reveals itself after having used a good tool."

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 05:21:12 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 13, 2016, 05:17:55 pmSo... your car is a Rolls Royce and you live in a 20 bedroom mansion, right? Nothing less than the absolute best is worth owning.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 06:20:07 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 13, 2016, 04:42:41 pmExcept that, in the case of the DS1054Z, every single known bug, other than the spelling error, has been corrected. Every single one! And you know it!Is there a single thread discussing CURRENT 1054 problems? If there are still problems, they are very well hidden because there is a cadre of people looking for them. Just waiting to pounce...The other annoyances are not bugs, there are design decisions. Yes, the fan could be quieter. Yes, the encoder should have detents. But knobs/channel is a design decision and not particularly important. If these are critical, shop elsewhere.When people talk about hardware quality, what are they talking about? Do they even know? Is there a checklist? The fact is, I have had my 1054Z apart a couple of times and it all seems rather fine to me. The screws hold things together, they don't seem to strip out and even the PCB looks like every other PCB I have ever seen. It's kind of green with black things all over the place. Somebody do a teardown and show off the differences in quality. Go on, do it! I dare you! I double dare you! I doubt there is a nickle's worth of difference between ANY of the brands, including Keysight. There will be a green PCB with black things all over it. Oh, and prove that any perceived difference results in measurement errors.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 06:50:13 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 13, 2016, 06:35:48 pmHmm, Samsung Note 7 anyone?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 06:55:09 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 13, 2016, 06:35:48 pmI also like to buy perfect products that work right out of the box first time.. But I can't afford to pay 5000€ for just that.. On the other hand, ALL manufacturers, even "premium ones" are releasing "half baked" products nowadays.. They might be better at fixing problems, have better customer relations, have more experience and know how so their products have more space to grow ... But they are also releasing product with very aggressive timeline....In my experience with software, I never buy "screaming new" products... I buy them after they are on the market for some time.. Early adopters pay premium, both in price and in the enjoyment of early bugs, with both premium brands and second tier manufacturers....

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 07:04:53 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 13, 2016, 06:35:48 pmTrue enough but in the launch-refine scenario, the company would be wise not to irreparably damage their brand. The bugs have to be subtle and eliminated quickly. Rigol has done this pretty well with the 1054Z. The thing about trying to achieve perfection before release is that nothing is ever perfect. There's always 'one more thing' and by the time the product is released, the marketing window has closed. There have been some classic blunders in the cell phone industry. Apple, Samsung,...You would think, after all this time, there wouldn't be a spelling error in the 1054 menu. Of all the easy things to fix...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 07:55:59 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 13, 2016, 07:04:53 pmI agree that it is an illusion to release a perfect product when it comes to firmware (and sometimes hardware) but OTOH releasing a product which clearly isn't tested at all, doesn't deliver on it's promises and never gets fixed is borderline criminal. Rigol did fix the DS1054Z because it is so popular but their higher end scopes don't receive the same amount of love from their software department. And Rigol isn't the only Chinese manufacturer who does that. IMHO this road goes nowhere because people will wait before buying something until the bugs are fixed but the bugs don't get fixed because nobody buys the product. I've got a reasonable T&M equipment budget but I'll think long and hard before buying anything Chinese especially when it is driven by complex firmware because I need to be able to rely on it. My experience with used A-brand equipment is much better.

author: bhensley
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 08:57:37 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 12, 2016, 12:11:26 amLooking at the two, it has more analog channels, longer warranty, more std memory, bigger screen, more measurements. Its not cheap, if you want that then I recommended the Digilent 2 channel device for price and the fact it comes with lots of free PC SW, and has an ARB and logic analyzer.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 12, 2016, 09:38:20 amI didn't see a place to put my affiliation in my title since it was locked after initial registration. But yes I work for Tek and my email shows that.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 09:10:37 pm
content: @bhensley: You can add a signature in which you explain your affiliation. BTW welcome! I hope your presence here leads to instruments actually worth buying in the Tektronix line-up.

author: bhensley
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 09:38:00 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 13, 2016, 09:18:45 pmI was merely referencing the class of scope, not that particular model in terms of what can fully be offered for all features. In terms of comparing it 'hacked', ha, ya, I can't recommend hacking a Tek instrument, since I work for Tek. And don't worry, not a sales guy, but I do hope to help where I can on certain topics. Good day.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 09:39:46 pm
content: Everybody has forgot about the OP, but of course nobody cares at this pointQuoteso cross out both rigol and tektronix.rigol is a god damn slug.tek has been notorious for being very slow too. how is it going now with the tbs? have they patched the firmware so it is not pointless, useless, expensive garbage? (sorry for being harsh. i admit i completely lost interest after the first 2-3 first impression videos you could find in the related topic so i didn't bother to check if things have improven)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 10:51:30 pm
content: @blueskull: you forgot the TBS2000 series has no protocol decoding which (IMHO) is mandatory for modern electronics education.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 12:33:03 am
content: Quote from: zapta on October 13, 2016, 02:37:22 pmAnd where did I do that ?This thread has as part of its title: recommendationYes, I offered a link to an old thread (that I've no participation in) that identifies aworrying problemin what seems to be everybody's favourite DSO.That this thread can be overlooked or dismissed when its content has been offered by a very experienced and technically knowledgeable member and whatsmore been confirmed by another member with similar standing.So somebody prove it wrong and update the thread with proof.Some might say it's an old thread, so be it,but show me and the forum members where this core fault has been fixed if in fact it has been ?The rest of the membership that are blindly following the rest all need take note that not all instruments are all they're cracked up to be.zaptaYou don't know the half of my position, I have manufacturers regularly courting me to represent them, includingRigol.EditHighlights added.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 12:53:50 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 14, 2016, 12:33:03 amAre you getting desperate for bad things to say about Rigols after the latest firmware squished your favorite bugs?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 12:55:25 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 14, 2016, 12:33:03 amProve what wrong? That you cherry pick and emphasize negative information about the leading competitor of the brand you represent?Of course it's wrong.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 01:24:54 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 14, 2016, 12:33:03 amSad.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 03:15:13 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 14, 2016, 12:33:03 amIt would be fair to say that no comments in the referenced thread have any relationship to the current state of affairs following the most recent firmware upgrade. That thread started at least 3 revs ago and is hardly representative of the situation today. At this point, the comments are just plain wrong!Some people bitch about the slow response to the UI. That may be a valid remark but it isn't necessarily a concern. Clearly the controls don't respond as well as those of an analog scope but it all works out in the end. Spin the knob fast and things move faster. Measurement issues have been resolved. The spelling error persists.The truly interesting part of that thread is the folks who HATE their DS1054Z yet refuse to sell it off to buy something perceived as a better scope. Nope! They're going to hang onto it so they have something to bitch about. They'll keep the $800 savings while bashing their own scope. They know full well that it will cost them 3 times as much money to get an equivalent scope.That thread and the Yaigol thread need to be pared back and brought up to date.Nobody has said that the DS1054Z is the be-all, end-all of scopes. Clearly, it isn't! But for less than $1200, it's going to be tough to find something better (better = identical bandwidth and features (hacked)). No question that there are scopes in the $2k and up range that are markedly better. Whether a hobbyist needs to spend that much money is up to them to decide.In my little corner of the electronics sandbox, the 1054 is adequate. When that is no longer the case, I will upgrade.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 07:44:26 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 13, 2016, 06:20:07 pmThat's not true, there's still a (serious) bug open which is reported and confirmed by Rigol in februari 2016:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg862373/#msg862373Despite that, the DS1054Z is still the best option for hobbyists with a low budget.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 07:47:08 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 14, 2016, 12:33:03 amYou do it all over the place. It's pathetic.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 08:07:49 am
content: Quote from: Karel on October 14, 2016, 07:47:08 amFront up and prove rf-loop, Marmad and me wrong.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 10:23:07 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 14, 2016, 08:07:49 amCome on tautech, you pop up in every T&M thread and shill for your brand.Compare that with the more respectful vendors here such as the Keysight guy.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 04:37:02 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on October 14, 2016, 07:44:26 amAre you talking about the problem of a user's own download code producing a phase shift which can't be duplicated when the code is written in a different manner by someone else?Has this 'bug' been confirmed with known good code and the most recent update? A lot can happen in the firmware world in 6 months!If this 'bug' was described in 1" letters on the web page, would I care? What percentage of hobbyists actually automate measurements? How many even plug in the network cable? If the scope didn't have any remote capability at all, would most hobbyists even care?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 06:34:10 pm
content: My advice: At < 100 MHz, buy the Rigol. At the higher end of the market (> 300 MHz), buy Keysight.I've had a Rigol DS2072A on my workbench for a couple of years now, after having many oscilloscopes before it.It's the first scope in 20 years that I've come to trust enough to move my ancient Tek 2230 off the workbench and into storage.Rigol has become the "nobody every got fired for buying IBM" brand of Chinese scopes. Below 200 MHz bandwidth, anyway.I'd say the Rigol is 95% as good as the low-end Keysight scopes. And it costs 1/3 of the price.At < 100 MHz, unless cost is no object, or you're doing some super-critical measurements that will result in people dropping dead if you make a tiny mistake, get the Rigol.(And if your measurements arethatsuper-critical, get both and make dammed sure they showexactlythe same thing - or know why.)

author: kverti
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 11:36:07 am
content: hello, maybe someone will recommend me too. I have an entry level Tektronix, but would like to have an advanced model to enrich my lab functionality. Since I decided to base my lab on robust old Agilent instruments, here is what I choose from (budget is around $4K):http://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-MSO8064A-Oscilloscope-600-MHz-4-Channel-Agilent-MSO8064A-/172243350897?hash=item281a80f571this one seems advanced enough to me, but based on a PC board and HDD, and the last thing I can trust is an HDD...http://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-MSOX3052A-Oscilloscope-2-16-ch-500-MHz-Agilent-MSOX3052A-/182245265204?hash=item2a6eaa0f34&_ga=1.152454584.0bcea377cc691dfb27f9a85ef53455dehttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-MSO6054A-Oscilloscope-500-MHz-4-16-Ch-Agilent-MSO6054A-/182170916362?hash=item2a6a3b960a&_ga=1.152454584.0bcea377cc691dfb27f9a85ef53455dehttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-DSO6034A-Oscilloscope-4-channel-300-MHz-Agilent-DSO6034A-/172349087261?hash=item2820ce5e1d&_ga=1.110430596.0bcea377cc691dfb27f9a85ef53455deor maybe this one will be pretty enough for non-specific tasks? Is it significantly better than a new model from Tektronix with 50 MHz 1GS/s ?Thanks in advance!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:37:07 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 14, 2016, 10:23:07 amHP always had averystrong corporate ethos that trashing competing products was Never Done. It is good to see that lives on in Keysight.(As I used to say, "the real Hewlett-Packard is alive and well, but is calledAgilentKeysight")

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:41:52 pm
content: Quote from: kverti on October 18, 2016, 11:36:07 amIf you are after a mature scope, many people would recommend a Tek 2465B, but I rather like the Tek 485. (Sorry, couldn't resist)More usefully, you need to specify what your current scope can't do and/or what you need the next scope to do. It is usually best to state the problem you are trying to solve (i.e. the measurement), not your solution (i.e. the equipment).

author: kverti
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 02:02:31 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 18, 2016, 12:41:52 pmhaha, in my vision mature means "advanced, feature-rich, stable" etc. That's what I really mean, sorry if it was not clearAs for the purpose, we have no specific tasks for it, and even if we have work for a $20K scope, we cannot afford it, and will have to borrow one. Still I'd like to have an ADVANCEDscope in the lab for which our budget is about $4K. Anyway I believe that an advanced scope can handle entry level work better than an entry level scope, am I right? I'm sure some people who have these models I mentioned above read this topic and can share their experience, and this will be very much appreciated

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 04:19:23 pm
content: Quote from: kverti on October 18, 2016, 02:02:31 pmWell, if you don't know what you want nor why, then it doesn't much matter what you buy."Advanced" in what sense? Bigger screen, better display, more channels, higher bandwidth, better interconnectivity, better remote control, more flexible triggering, better analogue post-processing, better protocol post-processing, more sensitive, more portable, lower power, battery powered, more rugged, water resistant, higher voltage, and those are just the attributes I can think of instantly.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 04:23:06 pm
content: Quote from: kverti on October 18, 2016, 11:36:07 amThe scope with the largest screen (MSOX3052A) would be nice but I prefer 4 channels. That particular scope ships from Malaysia. Is that better for you?The other 3 scopes ship from California.I don't have any experience with any of those scopes but I like the idea of the larger screen, particularly for an MSO, I want 4 channels, MSO is optional (to me) and higher bandwidth is always better. I certainly wouldn't be interested in a 50 MHz <anything>. Almost every uC is running faster than that. If I had the money, I would love to have one of the advanced Keysights. Alas, all I want to spend for a hobby is just enough to buy the Rigol DS1054Z. For commercial use where money is available, I would like to look through Keysight's offerings. Those are some great scopes. All of these are highly discounted scopes, backed by the factory and should be excellent in the lab.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 04:35:46 pm
content: For $4k you have a huge choice on Ebay from A-brands like HP/Agilent/Keysight, Tektronix, Lecroy, Yokogawa, Iwatsu and R&S.For $4k I think an Agilent DSO7000 series is within reach as well. Big screen, 128kpts FFT (albeit slow) and hackable to enable MSO and decoding options.Still the first thing to do is to get the priorities sorted:- 4 channels (mandatory IMHO)- Bandwidth?- Screen size/resolution (>640x480)- Digital channels (MSO) ?- Memory depth?- Features like peak-detect (not on all Lecroy models) and math functions- USB storage- Network connection?

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 05:16:38 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on October 11, 2016, 07:43:41 pmWhy? What's wrong with a Picoscope?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 05:47:16 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on October 18, 2016, 05:16:38 pmA lot. I've used one in the past and they are tedious to use due to the lack of knobs and needing to go into menus instead. You also have to watch the input range. The not so cheap Picoscope I used had a maximum input voltage of only +/-5V. Another nuisance was that it used 1-2-5 full scale ranges which is crap because to look at a 5Vpp signal you'd need to select 10V. There is a reason a normal scope has 1-2-5V/division ranges so you get 8-16-40 full scale ranges which match nicely for displaying the most common voltages you'll find in circuits.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 06:02:25 pm
content: - Because USB-only scopes are not oscilloscopes. They are DAQs (Data Acquisitions boards).An oscilloscope is a standalone lab instrument, with knobs, buttons and a screen. I mean real, physical items, and not just drawings on a tablet's touch screen.- Never used a Picoscope, so I don't know what is wrong with it.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 06:12:34 pm
content: Hmm, you must've used an older one. The ones that are currently available on the website are all +/-20V, with 100V maximum input. Not great compared to a bench scope, but good enough for 99% of the stuff. You can get cheap 20:1 attenuators for higher voltage use.I don't see the problem with the user interface. Dragging a trace with the mouse is just as fast if not faster than turning a rotary knob. And doing stuff like changing trigger options is way more tedious on a normal scope. Unless you're using one of the high end Windows based scopes where you can attach a mouse and where the user interface is just a Windows program.One big advantage is that doing screenshots, waveform captures, etc. is much faster as you already have everything on your PC. Not to mention decoded serial data. Also, you can directly access the scope data from other apps, like MATLAB, using the SDK.What I like about the Picoscope is the no-bullshit software policy. Same software for all models, no paid options to unlock and quite a number of serial decoders. Also, there's a Linux version available. Even better, they have a Debian repository.The reason I was asking is because I'm about to pull the trigger on a 2204A ... 130 Eurobucks (including probes) is a decent price.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 06:15:49 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on October 18, 2016, 06:02:25 pmHuh. What if you glue the Picoscope to a Laptop then?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 06:35:08 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on October 18, 2016, 06:12:34 pm10MHz, 2 channel?Quote from: mos6502 on October 18, 2016, 06:12:34 pmNo it isn't.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 07:24:39 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 18, 2016, 06:35:08 pmPerfectly adequate for my type of work (fixing cars and electronics, creating little electronics projects). Also, don't forget that it has a little signal generator built in.Another thing I forgot to mention, it can stream the data directly to the PC at 1 MSPS. That essentially gives you infinite memory. Great for data logging or capturing spurious events.QuoteYes it is.Edit: also the Picoscope is made in the UK, no Wun Hung Lo electronics in there.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 07:57:14 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on October 18, 2016, 07:24:39 pmFine. Just so long as you understand the limitations.(It's better than nothing at all, but...)Quote from: mos6502 on October 18, 2016, 07:24:39 pm

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 08:09:26 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on October 18, 2016, 07:24:39 pmIf cars made in the UK are an indicator then 'made in the UK' is not a good sign!

author: kverti
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 08:17:55 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 18, 2016, 04:35:46 pmsounds great, can I do it with any of DSO7000 ?Quote from: nctnico on October 18, 2016, 04:35:46 pm- 4 channels - yes! since the new scope must enrich the lab functionality, it is mandatory- Bandwidth? 500+- Screen size/resolution (>640x480) here's a question, if I use it with PC software like BenchVue via GPIB, does the native screen resolution really matter?- Digital channels (MSO) ? why not? and you say it's hackable- Memory depth? if I use it with PC software like BenchVue, does it really matter?- Features like peak-detect (not on all Lecroy models) and math functions - hmm... I'd prefer an Agilent so far...- USB storage - I think even entry level scopes have it- Network connection? - pardon me... what is it for?

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 08:19:26 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 18, 2016, 05:47:16 pmI use a picoscope a lot, on a daily basis. I can confirm that the scaling along with lack of offset control is bullshit because you effectively lose at least one bit of resolution. You can increase by oversampling but the filtering is MEH.the 5vpp issue is not really an issue over other scopes because almost any scope with a 50 ohm input (>300 Mhz BW) handles 5Vpp max.Anyway, with a pico you only pay for the acquisition board, and you already have a computer. if you need analog performance on a tight budget picoscope can be thenanswrr (and/or being able to acquire data in any situation. Most battery powered scopes are useless, the tek tps still wins because of isolated channels but the specs are atrocious.)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 08:38:26 pm
content: If you are looking at >=500MHz, then you should be careful to factor in the cost of appropriate probes. Bog-standard *10 probes are insufficient.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 09:30:48 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on October 18, 2016, 07:24:39 pmit is.if it was a rigol usb scope it would be all over the place.fungus i don't care if you take it as an insult. i really don't. but that's the truth.a piscoscope and its interface is so much better and responsive than a 1054z that i don't even know the english adjective to describe it. a shit laptop and a picoscope that combined costs as much as a 1054z will be so much better. same spec but more speed and all the memory a computer can take. and battery powered too. you can't win.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 09:37:23 pm
content: Wow this thread turned into a shitstorm pretty quick!

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 09:53:30 pm
content: I have old Picoscope 212/100.. More than 10 years ago.. It is 100MS, 128kBytes.. It is max 20V but... It is 12Bit (real, hardware) and it is excellent as a low frequency spectrum analyser (up to 25MHz) in a pinch...PC scopes are pain in the but because no buttons... BUT... If you need something saved to PC or documented... They are best.. Picoscopes are also very good at datalogging.. And they have custom mathematically defined probes.. Also measurements are great and highly configurable... Also free of charge protocol decoding... And a good one too, with Picotech adding protocols from time to time...When I bought one it was no brainer.. Rigols and likes didn't exist.. It was buying either big names (at 3000 - 4000$) or Picoscope for 800$.. And it served the purpose..Nowadays, Picoscope pricing is not so attractive.. But it's no crap, but very useful tool.And it is an oscilloscope.. It shows signals in time domain on a screen.. That is definition of oscilloscope..It is like saying laptop is not computer because of different form factor...And it is ok that someone don't like them .. I hate working on laptops for instance...But I own it because it is very useful at times.. Although i prefer to work on a "real" computer..And I would also prefer that we all stop having these kind of arguments..Simplest scope is better than nothing... Only really bad scope is a broken one.. And functional scope is a great help if you know how to use it..

author: kverti
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 10:09:34 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 18, 2016, 08:38:26 pmI appreciate your advice. Do you think these ones will be ok?http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1000004488%3Aepsg%3Apro-pn-1165A/miniature-passive-probe-101-10-mohm-15m?pm=PL&nid=-32557.536880390&cc=US&lc=engSuitable for Agilent/Keysight 6000, 7000, 8000, 9000 series, and pre-owned available waay cheaper locally

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 04:44:37 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on October 18, 2016, 09:30:48 pmSo that's why everybody here is using them, right? That's why Picoscope is a huge company that sells millions of units.Got it!

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 04:54:28 am
content: Let them try it and feel the pain of virtual device "ergonomic"

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 05:47:22 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 19, 2016, 04:44:37 amkeep dreamingi can say with the same arrogance that there already are more picoscopes in workplaces than there will ever be rigols, without even claming fancy numbers

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 06:36:56 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on October 19, 2016, 05:47:22 amWe'll take that with the same large pinch of salt as your claim that you can buy a Picoscope+a laptop for the same price as a DS1054Z, OK?

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 07:55:37 am
content: Pico are quite active on eBay with new stock. I've seen 200MHz units go for less than half the retail price of a DS1054Z.You can fill the rest of the cash with a nice 2-3 year old ThinkPad and an SSD off Amazon and walk away with a nice setup.Periodically tempted by this. Then I shake it off snd make do with a 50MHz analogue crate and a DMM with RS232 for very slow signals. I'd rather blow cash on a frequency domain instrument if I was going to spend that money.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 11:03:14 am
content: Quote from: setq on October 19, 2016, 07:55:37 amPlease can you tell exactly this PicoScope model?Then we can look how it is comparable.Did you mean old model 2208 (not 2208A or 2208B)2 channel,max 40kshared sample buffer. Input 10mV/div to 4V/divMax samplerate to buffer 1GSa/s,max streaming samplerate 1MSa/s

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 11:29:20 am
content: Did a quick recon on sold prices. They span 2200/3200 ranges:2208 200MHz - £1482208 200MHz - £1282208A 200MHz - £1773206MSO 200MHz - £284.503206B 200MHz - £323.003206B 200MHz £186.103204 200MHz - £220.00DS1054Z is £348 here inc VAT from Rigol UK or a quite frankly ridiculous £448.50 from Rapid.8 bit sample is a little shit looking at it though. Would rather have a 12 bit sample of the DS1054Z.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 01:06:19 pm
content: Quote from: setq on October 19, 2016, 11:29:20 amIs it good idea to read data sheets first. Or do you have any idea how things are comparable.Just tiny example. PicoScope 3204Channels 2Real time (single shot) max 50MSa/s just this alone is total show stopper.Sampling buffer 256kMaximum samplerate (streaming to PC)Perhaps 1MSa/s - 10MSa/s (just quessing)DS1054ZReal time (single shot) max 1GSa/sChannels 4Sampling buffer 12M (optional 24M)No need care "streaming" samplerate.And DS1000Z is really bottom class stand alone scope if look the oscilloscope performance. (if drop out much more older generation entry level scopes eg DS1000E or Siglent SDS1000CNL/CML)If take more just oscilloscope performance but 2 channels then there come example Siglent SDS1000X 100MHz starting EUR 400 (VAT 0)I want also physical knobs and I want separate knobs for every channel. Period..

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 01:37:12 pm
content: Of course they're not comparable, the scopes Pico sells on eBay are discontinued older models. The model that's comparable to the DS1054Z would be the 2408B, with 1GS/s and 128MS memory. Of course, it's 3 times the price of the Rigol, so it's a bit overpriced IMHO. Even though the Pico has 5 times the memory and 4 times the waveforms/s, which is quite significant.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 01:46:46 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on October 19, 2016, 01:37:12 pm3 times the price ... plus a PC, plus a whole lot more desk space.Quote from: mos6502 on October 19, 2016, 01:37:12 pmYep. Picoscopes in themselves aren't bad, but they're poor bang per buck IMHO.

author: kverti
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 04:49:28 pm
content: Sorry guys, may I remind you the grey string above saying what this topic is about : Osciloscope recommendation. Not Picoscope!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 05:08:55 pm
content: Quote from: kverti on October 19, 2016, 04:49:28 pmThe question was adequately answered on the first page somewhere but as usual the OP never replied or followed up on a single post. This is completely normal and nothing to worry about.After the second page the thread degenerated into a discussion of something else. This is also normal.But ... given the OPs requirements:* Less than 1MHz* High PC integration* Big screenA low-end Picoscope isn't a ridiculous suggestion.OTOH Picoscopes are very poor bang per buck and if you want four channels you have to pay more than a DS1054Z for something with 25MHz bandwidth and only 1 MS/s data streaming to the PC. In real terms that's less than 1MHz real-time sampling. Good for data acquisition but a very poor oscilloscope.

author: nolefan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 05:19:19 pm
content: Anyone confirm reliability of the Keysight 3000T series scopes and do they trigger each channel independently?

author: nolefan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 05:45:27 pm
content: Anyone know if the Keysight series 3000T has the abolity to trigger all channels independently?

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 05:53:18 pm
content: Quote from: kverti on October 19, 2016, 04:49:28 pmWell at least one recommendation is NOT to buy a Picoscope because they are gigantically overpricedThe management at Picoscope has no clue whatsoever about reasonable price levels, is short-sighted and eventually they will have to file for receivership. Well done Picoscope! =)

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 05:57:24 pm
content: QuoteMaybe true for the higher end models, but the lower end ones are really good value. If I didn't have to pay for it, the higher end ones would be pretty interesting too. Also, they have an 8 channel model.But here's a little hint, if you wait for a few months for the whole Brexit debacle to unfold, the price could drop by half or more.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 07:06:06 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on October 19, 2016, 05:57:24 pmIf only. Unfortunately most components are imported, and their cost would double.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 07:16:29 pm
content: Maybe Brexit will lead to Picoscope going out of business if they stick with their sky high prices. They better start lowering their prices

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 07:37:03 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 19, 2016, 07:06:06 pmYou're assuming that the majority of their costs is components. I'm pretty sure like with most companies, it's labor. I'm willing to bet that component costs are a tiny percentage of their total costs.Quote from: pascal_sweden on October 19, 2016, 07:16:29 pmA falling currency is always beneficial for export oriented businesses, because it effectively makes all their products cheaper to foreign buyers. If you're buying with Euros on UK eBay, it's pretty obvious that most stuff is a lot cheaper than from other countries.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 07:56:52 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on October 19, 2016, 05:57:24 pmFor long term data acquisition, maybe. As an oscilloscope I have my doubts. I admit I haven't seen one in action but the "1Ms/S streaming" and "8k buffer" sounds very bad. Does that mean that the live view on the PC screen is only 0.5MHz bandwidth?I'm not going to say it's useless because I've used really bad oscilloscopes myself and they're better than nothing at all. Would I recommend spending 150 bucks on one? That's a tough call.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 08:08:18 pm
content: No, the 1MS/s streaming is just when you want to use the memory of the PC, like if you want to capture stuff continuously for hours on end. Regular is 100MS/s into the internal buffer, which is only 8k. Again, depends what you're working with, but for general "fixing stuff and tinkering" it's fine. The software does have advanced trigger options so you can get around a lot of the memory limitations. Consider that Snap-On's current top-of-the-line, big-$$$ automotive scope only does 6MS/s. Or the Tektronix TDS220 only had 2.5k of memory and people actually still like using them today. Or People still pay hundreds for old Fluke scope meters on eBay with way worse specs than the 2204A.By the way, the Pico software has a demo mode, simulating a signal in software, so you can play with all the functions and test it out without owning a scope.Edit: here's a nice video of the Pico in action:

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 09:19:07 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on October 19, 2016, 08:08:18 pmOk, it looks like it grabs a screenful of data into the 8k memory then uses that buffer to update the PC screen. Screen update is then N frames per second (hard to guess a value for N from that video but certainly not 60Hz).That will work reasonably for repeating waveforms I guess. You won't be able to trigger, capture a load of data then zoom in and examine it but it's OK for many things.Like I said earlier: Not useless. Certainly a lot better than no 'scope at all. If I really believed I'd only ever have 130 bucks to buy an oscilloscope with then I'd think about getting one.But ... it's the bang per buck that gets me. You can have soooo much more for not much more money.Quote from: mos6502 on October 19, 2016, 08:08:18 pmAn 'automotive' scope doesn't need more than that.Quote from: mos6502 on October 19, 2016, 08:08:18 pmYes, there's some weirdos on the Internet.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 06:36:59 am
content: Indeed. I used a TDS220 and I wanted to kill someone after 5 minutes.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 06:58:43 am
content: Its not really the sample depth and buffer size that killed me, it was the blur-o-vision TFT, the slowness, the awful menu system, the lag on everything and the general fuckityness (I had to invent this word for that scope). This hasn't gone away yet. I use an ancient analogue crate for personal stuff. But back in the dark ages when in education we had a mix of TD220s, mid range HP CRT based units, a few old teks and some no brand 20MHz units (think they were goldstar). After the third lab session or so, the moment that door opened everyone would pile in and fight each other for a shitty goldstar. Me, I found a Tek 2465 which was the best of both worlds but was a formidable opponent of newbies as no one understood the internal termination system, the cursors or could work out the triggering.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 07:46:06 am
content: So it hasn't improved since the 1990s. Fun! I would have expected some massive improvements in this space.I was under the impression that all active probes needed a separate supply or some horrible proprietary probe interface. I built the one described in Troubleshooting Analog Circuits and that needs a +/-15v. Works pretty well. Immeasurably small input capacitance with my equipment and rolloff above my max bandwidth anyway.Boot up times always kill me. The TI NSpire calculator is the worst. If you leave it a few days you have to wait for the best part of a minute to use it. It's an effing calculator!?!?!

author: blackfin76
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 02:02:59 pm
content: The TDS200 series is of course the mother of all low budget benchtop DSO's. I just discarded one this week due to LCD module failure. But I can use the parts to fix another unit which has some of the knobs broken off. About the DPO2000 series I can only say to stay away from that piece of crap, bad display, don't like the menu's and it's slow to react on the controls. My favorit Tek scope is still the TDS3000 series, good display, easy to use and responsive, and 9-bit resolution gives a very nice and low noise trace.

author: kverti
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 11:35:32 pm
content: Thanks to you folks, especially tggzzz, rstofer, nctnico! Your questions really helped me to refine my request. Now I consider buying only 2 models:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-MSO6054A-Oscilloscope-500-MHz-4-16-Ch-Agilent-MSO6054A-/191945661526?Well, it is declared as 4 years old and recently factory calibrated unit with some serial triggering options included. No probes, but I can get proper ones cheap locally. Free shipping, 1 year warranty. $4183 only.And then it comes a fantastic MSOX3104T:This onehttp://www.ebay.com/itm/e-Boost-Promo-Keysight-Premium-Used-MSOX3052T-Oscilloscope-500-MHz-2-16-Ch-/191938119736?hash=item2cb0674838Factory refurbished, with factory upgrading to MSOX3104T: 4 channels, MSO, 1GHz, all standard accessories included, free shipping, 3 years warranty, everything as for a brand new one as they say. As MSOX3104T it is $6583 totally. Only. The budget was about 4K, but I can sacrifice something for a really cool instrument. Is it really cool?I can now specify our tasks, we gonna design tools/equipment for Apple devices testing, mostly iPhones and iPads. Mostly power and data circuits, less RF (so far).Requirements I dead sure about:-more portable, lower power, battery powered, more rugged, water resistant, higher voltage - Doesn’t matter at all, only bench use-more channels- Both scopes I consider are 4+16-better interconnectivity, better remote control- Both scopes I consider have USB, GPIB and LAN-more sensitive- Aren’t the both scopes I consider sensible enough?Then comes the question I really want to know answers for:-Bigger screen, better display, For example, MSO6054A has XGA 1024 x 768 LCD, shall I dare it to be of a higher resolution? Anyway I’d like to set up a PC integrated testing environment with all my Agilent boys together; with BenchVue I guess. Is it really cool software BTW?-Higher bandwidth. Considering our actual tasks, do we really need 1GHz? What kinds of work cannot be proceeded with 500MHz, but still pretty possible with 1GHz?Anyway folks you are far more professional than me, that’s why I ask for your advice. Everything I want is to gather strong team of engineers who will really enjoy their working environment with all the cool stuff. Thank you!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 12:03:45 am
content: Quote from: kverti on October 24, 2016, 11:35:32 pmYou are welcome.If your engineers are strong then they will know what they need to purchase to do their job - and they will prefer to make their own choice.Have you checked the price of 1GHz probes?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 12:38:18 pm
content: I'd go for the 1GHz scope. Don't worry about probes right now. You can often use a splitter or passive divider to couple signals into an oscilloscope without needing a fancy probe.

author: kverti
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 04:04:30 pm
content: Well folks I've just purchased an MSOX3104T with some minor options included for almost $7K. they say it may take up to 3 weeks to be delivered, but I feel excited now. hopefully our engineers will appreciate my efforts to make their working environment top and cool

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 04:14:12 pm
content: Quote from: kverti on October 25, 2016, 04:04:30 pmNow they'll fight over who gets that one and who gets the DS1054Z.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 04:26:07 pm
content: If they are going to fight over the scope then they should have gotten the GW Instek GDS2204E. Using alternate trigger 4 people can use one probe each and look at a triggered signal!

author: kverti
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 04:44:57 pm
content: haha. and BTW we're hiring. anyone ready/willing to move to South China, Shenzhen is welcome to PM me. western managed company, details in PM if interested, thank you

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 04:43:01 pm
content: Quote from: nolefan on October 19, 2016, 05:45:27 pmA little late to the party here, but the InfiniiVision 3000T can trigger on any of its channels. If you're looking for an "any channel" trigger (i.e. if there's a qualifying trigger event on any analog or digital channel then trigger the scope) I'll have to double check. We do have an "or" trigger, but I'm not sure how many channels can be "or-ed" together.Quote from: kverti on October 25, 2016, 04:04:30 pmCongrats! I'm sure you won't be disappointed

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 06:33:19 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight_DanielBogdanoff on October 26, 2016, 04:43:01 pmIt sounds a bit like he wants to trigger all channels independently, which would be an interesting but very confusing feature.

author: InTheVoid
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 06:05:31 pm
content: Thanks all for the suggestions. I really appreciate the technical discussion and learned a lot reading the posts. As for now, Daniel solved the problem and I have an oscilloscope to work.Thanks!