"Best" cost-effective automated PCB assembly line? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 02:40:34 pm
content: As my business continues to grow, the pair of Charmhigh 48VB PnP machines I currently keep running every day will be overrun and my assembly line will need a significant upgrade.This won't happen until I get a completely new location with a concrete floor: my current wood floor space won't hold extremely heavy equipment that needs to be set perfectly and remain stable, one of the reasons I'm running these desktop machines.Anyway, I'd like to fully automate the assembly line, or as close to fully automated as possible. If there is a massive price difference between a person running the stencil machine vs fully automated, that is something I can keep someone working on, but the ideal goal is to put a stack of PCBs on a rack, out come populated PCBs on the other end.Output requirement minimum is 100 two-sided 150x200mm PCBs per day. If it is FULLY automated where I can keep an eye on the machine remotely or let it run overnight w/o human input, it can even go slower.I run the same boards over and over again, not much variety.Of course, spending $200,000 is probably not going to happen, but depending on what happens to my business the next year, it might make sense. I've gotten quotes back for assembly service, and just one year's production would cost about $130k to farm out, just for the service and not including components. If we get into what we are looking to get into, that would double quickly with the next product, and keep going up from there. At that point, spending even $500,000 can start to make sense as then the machines are ours to run as hard as we want.Is there any assembly line package out there as I describe that makes sense for a small business that just populates their own boards and not trying to make 10,000 widgets per day?

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 09:46:18 pm
content: Quote from: Rat_Patrol on May 26, 2021, 02:40:34 pmRegardless of how much you spend that isn't an option. The line always needs an operator present to keep things ticking over - reels run out, feeders jam, random things happen.You could set up a Kayo line similar to ours (bare board loader, automatic stencil printer, 6 head placer, 6 zone oven) for probably around USD70-80k all in. The oven needs a chain conveyor in order to do double sided boards though. We're doing a similar volume to what you describe (although you don't mention how many parts on the board; these machines will only do 4-6k CPH) and find it suitably sized.You can't pay some Chinese dude $2 per hour to manually paste the boards so a fully automatic stencil machine is the only option. It's not just about doing the pasting but also cleaning the stencil after every 5-10 pastes (which an automatic printer will do).

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 12:03:10 am
content: Quote from: Rat_Patrol on May 26, 2021, 02:40:34 pmOh, boy. Well, my experience is all with older machines. My Philips/Yamaha CSM84 had a big problem with peeling the cover tape, and constant feeder jams was the result. It usually woulld not run more than 5 minutes between jams.Now, sometimes I get EVERYTHING just right, and could do a batch of boards with nearly zero jams.Now, I have upgraded to a Quad QSA30 (machine made by Samsung, but with Quad feeders and alignment cameras).These feeders are a bit trickier to load, but deal MUCH better with the cover tape. Feeder jams are more rare.But, it still requires a bit of fiddling, as sometimes it gets a bunch of mis-picks and skips the rest of that component until manually corrected.Still, the idea of lights-out operations seems like a fantasy from my experience. The less demanding the boards (mostly related to lead pitch) the easier it gets.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 12:08:22 am
content: Oh, and I'm a big believer in old machines. My Quad QSA30A is one of the first more advanced machines with flying vision alignment cameras on the head. That generic line came out in about 1997, my machine is kind of a second generation and was made in about 2000. There are more recent machines from the same line, such as the SamsungCP45 that has flying bottom vision on 6 heads. Way more machine than I need, but that might be something you could look into. You can probably get one for under $10K at auction, or $15-20K refurbished by a dealer. There's a TON of good, used equipment on the market.Jon

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 01:11:34 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on May 27, 2021, 12:08:22 amUsed machines are definitely a great option, the caveat being that you need to have the time available to figure things out and be able to repair them. Formal support will be minimial-to-none (but there will be third part support for the more common machines such as Yamaha/Phillips/Assembleon, etc.).

author: Styno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 08:42:32 am
content: Quote from: Mangozac on May 27, 2021, 01:11:34 amWhich also applies more-or-less to new cheap Chinese machines.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 11:45:30 am
content: Quote from: Styno on May 27, 2021, 08:42:32 amYes and no (and depends on where you draw the line for "cheap"). Fortunately I'm in a time zone close enough to China that I can easily chat with the team from Kayo on WhatsApp throughout the day. Any questions we have had were always answers within minutes. Yes, there was still a lot of self teaching but if not for the pandemic there was the option to fly to Wuxi to receive free training in person.

author: Styno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 01:35:08 pm
content: Okay. But Rat_Patrol was talking about a low-end Charmhigh. Anyway, there are also options to get support for the old machines, heck, our machine is 25 years old and way out of official support but I sent an email to Dima-Nordson and got a ton of information (and parts) back. Our supplier also provides support and basic training on the machine. So things are not black and white. Perhaps it's best to just ask around for support experiences before deciding.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 03:35:59 pm
content: Quote from: Mangozac on May 27, 2021, 01:11:34 amSpare parts, accessories, etc. for my first machine, the Philips CSM84 (made by Yamaha) were not so easy to get.Apparently, the Samsung machines were made in huge quantity in the far East, and parts are plentiful and cheap.I had to buy an interface board, a camera and a whole placement head for my machine. The board was about $300,the camera under $200, and the head was $600. I have also bought a whole set of about 30 Quad feeders for $60 -75 each. Really quite reasonable. The hardest thing was coming up with a full set of manuals for it. And,, the operator's manual from Quad is absolutely horrid. Fortunately, I got hooked up with the guy who did the factory training at Quad, and he has been a HUGE help. I did download the CP45 manuals, and they seemed to be pretty decent.Even my old Quad QSA30 (basic machine built by Samsung) has a LOT of advanced features for testing and setup.You can go to a screen and "test pick" a part, and it shows on screen the X, Y and rotation offsets and the measured size of the part. You can go to another screen, and it shows you the fiducial recognition, and you can verify it is getting good centroids of the marks. There are a whole bunch of other self-calibration and setup features. You can select camera in the placement menu (they call it step program) and it will bring the camera over the location where that part is to be placed, so you can verify the coordinates are right. It allows you to teach the placement, but I prefer to import the fiducial and placement coordinates from my CAD system.When placing, if it gets 4 pick-up errors on a particular part, it skips that part and completes the board, then after you fix the issue (component tape ran out, feeder jam, etc) you press start and it places all the skipped parts.I don't know how sophisticated the Chinese machines are in regard to this setup, testing and error recovery, but I am really coming to appreciate the thought that went into it.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 03:42:11 pm
content: If you buy a refurbished machine, it should run immediately after arrival. Just make sure to buy a common machine so that a lot of parts are still available. I was very pleasantly surprised when setting up this Quad/Samsung machine, that there is quite an industry, both in the US and Asia, supporting the basic machine with parts and accessories at reasonable prices. And, especially for consumables like peel rollers and nozzles, they are easy to get.There most certaily are oddball machines that were produced in very small numbers that would NOT be a good one to buy.Jon

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 10:03:17 pm
content: Quote from: Styno on May 27, 2021, 01:35:08 pmThat's what he currently has. He's asking about options for the next step up from there, which is the bracket that the Kayo (and similar) machines are in.I have no problem with the recommendation of used placer machines (and I would have gone down that path if I'd been able to find one when I needed it), but they definitely carry a higher risk of needing to sink some time in to get them up and running correctly. They might seem to run fine at first but these are very complex machines so there may be faults that don't become apparent for some time. That's ok, so long as you are prepared for it.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 05:09:54 pm
content: Quote from: Mangozac on May 27, 2021, 10:03:17 pmAnd, there's also the software learning curve. I would have NEVER gotten my used machine up without the help of a retired guy from the factory plus several others who are running the same or related machines. (My machine was made by Samsung, but fitted with Quad feeders and alignment cameras, and sold under the Quad brand. It runs Samsung software.) So, that kind of doubles the availabilty of parts and advice. Unfortunately, the manuals are HORRIBLE, so i needed a lot of hand-holding when I couldn't figure stuff out.Like, the machine's coordinate system has +X to the right, but the BOARD's coordinate system has +X to the left!NOWHERE in the manual does it tell you this! Unbelieveable.But, once you learn this stuff, you can adapt.Now, one REAL issue I can see with the low-cost Chinese machines is future spares availability. Since Samsung machines were produced in huge quantity and installed all over the world, especially in the far East, there is still a large industry supporting them. I can get any part I want for them at very good prices. I kept my last P&P machine for 13 years, I don't know how long I'll keep this Quad. It is now 20 years old, but I can get parts for it. I'd guess after 5 years, all custom parts on the low-cost Chinese machines will not be available. And, for all the off the shelf parts, you'd have to figure out who made the part and where to buy it from.JonJon

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2021, 01:15:55 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on May 29, 2021, 05:09:54 pmI'm not certain that's a big issue and it's not something I'm nervous about. By and large these Chinese machines are made from standard electromechanical parts that are really easy to find a source for. Yes, there are a handful of custom boards but from what I've seen none that are highly complex, so are likely to be repairable. Kayo guarantee that they will provide spare part support for at least 10 years (of course such claim can be taken with a grain of salt). Ultimately, based on what the new Kayo machine cost, if in 10 years it's broken and irreparable then I won't be particularly devastated. If business grows as planned I expect I'd be looking to replace and/or supplant it by then anyway...

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2021, 04:26:59 pm
content: Quote from: Mangozac on May 30, 2021, 01:15:55 amHmm, yes, ever seen a "salt lick" on a cattle farm? Note that Philips spun off their P&P division to Assembleon, which has now been sold off to Kulicke & Soffa. Samsung got into a sharing agreement with Quad that fell apart. Quad closed, and Samsung closed the division that made their P&P machines and created a new division. So, even the "big guys" don't seem to stay in business for all that long.I'd be REAL hesitant to rely on a 10 year committment from anything Chinese. If there were 10,000 of these machines made, you'd have a good chance of parts being available for some time. If only a few hundred of any particular model were sold,, fat chance you could get any parts off old machines.Jon

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2021, 04:54:57 pm
content: Part of the parcel of buying the cheap Chinese machines is knowing that in 1-2 years if parts break, it is probably up to you to find and replace them if the sellers are not around anymore.I have been looking into the 80 feeders 8 head SMT-880/HW-T8SG-80 machine and while most of the parts look off the shelf, sounds like a few are custom.This is a concern but there are a few options out there and hopefully, we can see some custom software soon for these machines to make them 10x better.So far they have been selling these machines for around 3-5 years and they have new machines around the corner that might make these current models EOL in the coming years.But they should have a decent amount of parts for a while, hopefully.Stuff like stepper/servo motors and drivers are going to be generic ones you can pick up anywhere and probably locally.It is just the controller circuitry that will be custom, most likely.Hopefully, the cameras are USB or feed SDI/Composit to an off-the-shelf card.As soon as I get mine, <insert poor Aussie accent> don't turn it on, take it apart! <end poor Aussie accent> and log all the parts and how it all works.I bought a fibere laser last year and while the control board is custom, the rest was off the shelf.Most of the assemblers don't actually make any of the components, they just buy everything wholesale and assemble in their factory and either distribute to resellers or sell direct.Skimp on a few items or improve on a few items to save money or set themselves apart from the rest.Hopefully, it is the same with these P&P machines. Might be worth buying a few spares and stocking them for resell

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2021, 09:20:00 pm
content: I think I'm probably with @Mangozac on this one, if as the title says you are looking for a line and like the OP you are talking about a full commercial use to manufacture product and thereby generate income... The machines, provided they work, can pay for themselves pretty quickly. That means if you are unlucky enough to get a machine that only lasts 2-3 years before a part you can't replace renders it a pile of scrap, you might not care.Of course its a different story if you are a hobbyist who has scrimped up all your spare pennies to get one of the smaller machines but equally you should probably only be working those machines as hard as a hobbyist might.In this forum I think we have seen one user who has found a replacement video capture card doesn't quite swap in for a faulty unit, and there does seem to be a fairly high incidence of people needing a replacement part, which they often receive quickly. There is clearly a level of risk especially at the low end.As to the question itself, none of the big-name brands focusing on low volume high mix are targeting 10K widgets a day with their $200k+ lines, the work described is exactly what you would do with an Essemtec/Europlacer/MyDayta if you drink their coolaid, but equally with any of the others. It depends what features you value, I prefer Smart affordable feeders and software that makes importing data, regardless of who generated it, as painless as possible. For the OP you could spend much less by choosing dumb feeders and a more generic machine like an entry level Hanwha which would absolutely chew through your workload at 20-40k cph.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2021, 05:07:41 am
content: From my experience used Samsung (Hanwha) is the way to go with mechanical feeders. Expensive feeders drive me nuts otherwise I'd have gone Fuji NXT with turret heads (I love tiny pick place machines). Most chinese machines use a lot of standard off the shelf parts, my issue is software and I have reoccurring nightmares looking at chinese symbols (worse than the matrix). I had hoped neoden would have stepped up their game by now. My preference is to buy a pick and place and get 20 years of nonstop headache less service. I prefer SMT machines without microsoft operating systems especially anything before/after windows xp/7.