This is why I hate aluminum wiring. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Housedad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 05:47:09 am
content: The other day my father in law asked me what could cause the power in his bedrooms to suddenly cut out and then start back a few minutes later. He said it had done this several times in the last two months. The alarm bells in my head started going off BIG time. His house was built in 1972 and has aluminum wiring throughout.I tried to explain the situation and dangers but he just thought it was a bad circuit breaker and told me I was being "too dramatic" and the wiring had lasted this long without a problem, so it was OK. I finally got him let me come over and "just check it out". I couldn't get him to turn off the breakers until I could get there. He could not see a problem.My wife and I went there today. I started pulling furniture away from all the 6 outlets in the rooms and found something that made my wife and FIL gasp. I pointed out some black streaks rising from one of the outlets and then took the old metal cover plate off. What was left of the outlet with it's wires melted off, drooped out of the sordid remains of a bakelight box. There had been a fire that had broken out of the box, burned in the wall, and miraculously snuffed out after scorching about 3 feet vertically. I know this because I cut the drywall out to see the extent.Tomorrow I will be replacing every outlet and switch with CO/ALR rated ones, and then start the wall and outlet repair.Be careful of this crap, folks.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 05:56:18 am
content: He's lucky you married his daughter.ps. I think you have a spelling mistakeQuote

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 06:23:41 am
content: Yeah it's nasty stuff. My house has an aluminum service entry and the circuit that originally powered an electric stove in the kitchen are aluminum but everything else is copper.That said, I've seen copper wiring burn up almost exactly the same way in my partner's mom's place. She was visiting her mom and called me to say the space heater in the master bathroom had quit working and that there was a streak up the wall over the receptacle in the other bathroom. I went out there to find a really similar mess with a completely melted and deformed plastic box and burned up wires. In this case I strongly suspect it was caused by backstab terminals on the receptacle which IMO are faulty by design. The space heater on the end of the run was a nearly perfect ballast resistance, pulling a heavy load through the receptacle in the other bathroom.

author: Housedad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 07:28:18 am
content: Thanks. Yeah should have been black. Fixed the spelling.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 01:47:40 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on June 10, 2019, 05:56:18 amHe spelled bakelitewrong too.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 01:51:38 pm
content: ... andaluminium.

author: duak
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 05:31:10 pm
content: I flipped a light switch on at an old girlfriends place and there was a funny varying buzzing noise coming from the switch. There was also a orange-red glow showing thru the cover plate. I pulled off the cover and sure enough, there was Al wiring in a wirenut with carbon tracks above it. She moved out but I see the condo complex is still standing. Am I liable, after over 25 years, for knowing something but not doing anything other than repairing the particular problem?

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 06:32:23 pm
content: If the wirenuts were tightened manual and individually, the problem can also show up individually and therefore was fixed. It does not make you responsible for the whole installation, that is the owners job.If and when a layman is supposed to know that something is broken is an enigma to me, up to questions of gross negligence, like what statement or information needs to be ignored to be counted as such.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 07:01:03 pm
content: Airbus use aluminium wire in the A380, it saves them a few hundred kg.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 08:02:38 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on June 10, 2019, 07:01:03 pmAluminum wiring and bus bars are also used extensively in power distribution and industrial applications. It isn't a problem at all if it is properly terminated. It is not, however, compatible with cheap screw terminals on domestic outlets and switches installed by random idiots in the field and subject to repair by even stupider homeowners. Which is why it isn't generally used in domestic wiring any more, although still often used for the service entrance and for the bus bars in the breaker panel.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 08:19:23 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on June 10, 2019, 01:51:38 pmtomatopotatoes

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 02:29:16 am
content: rofl have him hire a electrician for the bullshitonce someone starts giving you some cost sensitive run around bullshit when it comes to safety, and your right, don't help

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 02:39:07 am
content: Quote from: Housedad on June 10, 2019, 05:47:09 amI have it and yea, replace with CO/ALR outlets and switches. I've never had a problem.There are also various types of couplers with screws available that can safely tie copper and aluminum together if needed (not wire nuts).

author: Housedad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 06:02:27 am
content: Ok, I dunt spel zo gud.Or it is the dang autocorrect on this tablet I can't seem to remember to turn off.Anyhoo, I have all the parts now, and I start in the morning. Pain in the butt.All the outlets and switches are original, and none I saw are marked rated for aluminum.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 11:48:54 am
content: WOW !... I haven't seen ALUMINIUM (spelled right here, hahaha), since my old days of HV Transmissionlines, mainly for the sake of 'weight'. Of course, it doesn't conduct as well as Copper, but the biggestproblem was 'jointing' with dis-similar metals, like when using large coated copper Crimp-Lugs' !!(Due to internal oxidization & electrolysis). Needed a special 'grease' in the joints !

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 12:34:26 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on June 11, 2019, 11:48:54 amIt doesn't conduct as well but that's why the wires are sized bigger. So in effect there is no issue with the current capability. As you indicated, it's the issue with the end connections, which the builders dropped the ball on years ago.

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 12:53:55 pm
content: My experience with Al wiring is only at the service end and all I know about that is that it is supposed to have the grease applied to prevent oxidation.Is the grease required or does it help to use it on the outlets as well or are the outlets and connectors for Al wiring designed with that in mind ?

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 01:25:17 pm
content: Copper is better in terms of volume but aluminium is much better in terms of weight. For a given resistance aluminium weighs about half of what copper would. It's also cheaper costing only 30% of copper by weight, so for the same resistance aluminium only cost 15% of what the copper in an equivalent copper wire would.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 01:55:27 pm
content: I am sure that you are nowadays his favorite son-in-law.The worst example I've seen was a cheap AC voltage stabilizer....you know, the tapped autotransformer types.The transformer wire was aluminum. Some of its wires were crimped to plain vanilla terminals, and others were soldered to the PCBA! In both instances, the connections looked awful and overheated.The problem was located thanks to the characteristic smell we all are so familiar with.The thing is, the stupid thing was rated for 1 KVA, but the actual load was never higher than 300 watts.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 01:58:45 pm
content: Quote from: ptricks on June 11, 2019, 12:53:55 pmThere is no grease at the service box, never has been, and it isn't required there because that equipment is designed to function as it stands. A lot of people don't realize that aluminium wire connects their house to the electric lines for service.The grease prevents oxygen getting to the area where two dissimilar metals are touching that really shouldn't be. The grease is not required when using CO/ALR designed sockets and light switches because the terminals are plated with a metal ( I forgot what kind) that is compatible with aluminum wire. When the builders in the '70s cut costs and used Cu rated sockets they caused most of the problems.I've inspected my sockets that I installed in 1995 and they look brand new at the terminals even today.And don't forget Cu electrical fires happen all the time when circuits are overloaded or screws aren't tight. It's all about using the right materials and using them safely.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 02:39:10 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 11, 2019, 01:58:45 pmSupposedly indium, which is, uh.. it actually corrodes in contact with aluminium, and also hardens the brass. Otherwise, good old tin.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 03:08:49 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 11, 2019, 02:39:10 pmThey're approved for use to connect aluminum wires to the socket. That's all engineered and designed by the industry and tested. Good enough for my use.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 03:25:24 pm
content: I've encountered a few motors wound with aluminum wire, and also the ballast in the mercury yard light at our cabin, all stuff made in the early 70s during the Vietnam war when copper prices spiked. I had to repair the ballast when a connection failed and realized then that the wire was aluminum. Fortunately the wiring installed in the cabin is copper so I haven't had to deal with that. It does however have one of the infamous Zinsco panels however the breakers are only turned on when someone is actually there so it's all lightly used and in good condition.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 03:30:44 pm
content: I have not worked much with Al wire but it always gave me the impression that it was very subject to fatigue and if you bent it twice back and forth it would break. That's the reason I never liked it. Maybe newer alloys are better.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 03:34:34 pm
content: I have a piece of 12AWG aluminum cable of the sort typically called "Romex" here that I salvaged as a curiosity out of an old manufactured home a friend of mine was demolishing. It's not as fragile as that, but it's not as resilient as copper either. I don't think fatigue damage was a common problem, it mostly came down to junctions. In the process of salvaging from that place I found lots of standard cu rated hardware and wire nuts joining aluminum to copper at fixtures.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 11:45:56 pm
content: I haven't seen it used in Australia for general mains wiring (although I am pretty sure it is allowed with the correct connectors.).But it is quite common to use it for the incoming supply for houses a long way back from the transformer. I seem to remember 3 phase 70mm^2 csa to overcome the allowable voltage drop for 100m.This ends up being significantly cheaper, you just have to use the proper connectors with it.

author: Quarlo Klobrigney
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 12:02:46 am
content: The use of NoOx would have helped many an overheating connection. Also the use of AFCI's, would have tripped before any flame up.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 01:40:18 am
content: Don't count on it. You can get a lot of heating without arcing, but it's irrelevant anyway because aluminum wiring was banned for most circuits long before AFCI's came into the picture. The only time you see it now is service entrances and circuits for large appliances like electric hot water heaters, clothes dryers and furnaces for heating.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 01:45:35 am
content: its in light fixtures

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 11:03:39 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on June 11, 2019, 11:45:56 pmYea... Incoming house supplies varied greatly, depending on many conditions. The 70-SqMm you mentionedis equiv to the imperial '19/.083' which is 19 strands of .083", and over .4" in diameter.P.S. Have some people ever wondered *why* we have typically 7 & 19 strands of wire inside a cable ?It's just basic maths/geometry. 6 circles fit perfectly around another circle of the same diameter. (7 total).12 more, sits perfectly around those inner 7, making a total of 19.

author: duak
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 06:24:35 pm
content: Al is used here a lot in commercial/industrial wiring for 60 A plus branch circuits, especially for run lengths over 50 meters.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 06:53:50 pm
content: I am amazed all the time what goes on, when you let the builder decide on the electricity.- Aluminium wiring- Non standard colors- Earth wire missing- Earth missing from the outlet (This is not required here by law. I'm stunned. I seriously WTF-ed when I saw this everywhere, this shit was banned in other parts of the world in the 70s. C plug is the plug of death itself)- Wires installed for lamps without service loops with 1 cm sticking out from the ceiling- Switches upside down- Any part of the distribution box that involves any kind of metal melting- Distribution box with shared cabling for multiple rooms (no, having 1 fuse for the two side of a wall is not OK)- A grand total of 2 outlets for a room- Earth and neutral swapped (I have two of these in my rental right now. Tired of calling them to fix it, so I just taped it)- No GFI- Oldschool razor-deathtrap in the bathroom- Heating system pipes are not earthed- Anything that is built in any kind of kitchen furniture that is done by someone else- Less than 16A wiresI seriously met all these in the Netherlands and Belgium. IMHO, they should do spontaneous inspections and beat people with wooden clogs (or belgian boat shoes) constantly until they fix it.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 07:37:57 pm
content: I have never seen aluminum wires or cables sold, used or installed in domestic settings in Spain. Everything is copper.I just checked the regulations and they say "all wiring shall be copper or aluminum" so it is allowed.I found no reference to termination or splicing.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 11:41:12 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 13, 2019, 06:53:50 pmI had a friend living in Belgium recently for a few years and I was surprised to hear some things like this which sounded like a more backwards country.In Spain you can find plenty of shoddy work done by unlicensed people but in new homes you will find good work done by licensed electricians and any work done by a licensed electrician should be of good quality. Obviously you can find the occasional mistake but in general things will conform with code.So, let's see:- Aluminium wiring: authorized but not found- Non standard colors: I am not saying it never happens but I would not expect to find it in professional work.- Earth wire missing: Never. Required by code for all new work- Earth missing from the outlet. Some circuits require it and some don't. I find this is stupid and should be required always.- Wires installed for lamps without service loops with 1 cm sticking out from the ceiling. Well, generally you would have a length sticking out but I guess someone could miscalculate. I can't see why one would cut the wires too short.- Switches upside down. I am not aware that there is an up and a down.- Any part of the distribution box that involves any kind of metal melting. I don't know what this means. Metal melting sounds like something unwanted.- Distribution box with shared cabling for multiple rooms (no, having 1 fuse for the two side of a wall is not OK). Again, not sure what this means but sounds OK to me.- A grand total of 2 outlets for a room. I don't know what the requirements are here but I think two outlets might be a reasonable minimum for a small room.- Earth and neutral swapped. Obviously wrong. Have never seen this. I guess it can happen if you do not abide by the color scheme.- No GFI: Required in Spain. Sometimes a nuisance. Sometimes I have taken some circuits off the general GFCI to avoid nuisance tripping.- Oldschool razor-deathtrap in the bathroom. I am not sure what this is. We do have an outlet in the bathroom.- Heating system pipes are not earthed: I am not certain why they need to be earthed when they earth themselves pretty much. Same as general water piping. I guess it wouldn't hurt to ground them but I am not aware of any requirement to do so. I would probably prefer a separate earth. If the water heater is electrical then obviously, the heater needs to be earthed.- Less than 16A wires: cable section is mandated by code and I expect it would be fulfilled. I believe the basic cable for 16 A is 2.5 mm2.So, in general, the new work you would expect to find in Spain is of reasonably good quality.Regarding code I would prefer solid wire to stranded, require earth in every outlet, and I do not like the non-polarized Schuko but I guess that is a lost cause.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 12:07:13 am
content: Licensed electricians here tend to do good work, the problem is that all too often they've got a apprentices doing the work while they supposedly supervise. I had to go through my friend's house after it was largely rebuilt following a (non electrical) fire and fix a bunch of half assed work that had been done. They used the push in terminals on everything and a couple of them apparently weren't fully inserted because they fell out. The hardware was of course the cheapest of cheap.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 02:10:28 am
content: Quote from: soldar on June 13, 2019, 11:41:12 pmI understand your point, but I wish to highlight your (correct) use of the phrase: "they earth themselvespretty much". This sort of earthing is not a considered design - it's just alikelyoutcome of the nature of the installation. Explicit earthing efforts provide a much more dependable solution which will not be as easily compromised if there is a change to the heating system which could affect the natural earthing characteristics of the system. After all, there is no rule that I know of which makes it mandatory for heating systems to provide reliable earthing - when that is just not necessary for their safe and proper operation.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 02:33:01 am
content: Quote from: james_s on June 11, 2019, 03:34:34 pmFatigue shouldn't be a problem with Romex and other household wiring since the National Electrical Code specifically doesn't allow Romex and other single strand wire in any application that can be reasonably expected to move. I've seen people make "extension cords" out of Romex but it's illegal in any jurisdiction that follows the NEC.FWIW I've never seen stranded aluminium wire, anywhere.QuoteTrue. The aluminium wiring has a higher resistance than copper wiring and would tend to heat a bit more with current flowing through it. One of the results was that when Al wire was wrapped around a screw terminal it tended to expand and contract every time that the circuit was turned on and then off. In a lot of instances that expansion and contraction would gradually loosen the screw terminal to the point that the junction would start arcing. Stab type terminals are even worse since they frequently don't have much tension on the wire. Intelligent people won't use a stab type terminal on either copper or aluminium wire.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 02:38:51 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on June 12, 2019, 01:45:35 amWhere? I've never seen it used in any light fixture. Even the cheap Chinese made stuff that Home Depot sells uses copper wire.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 03:33:35 am
content: Quote from: soldar on June 13, 2019, 11:41:12 pmIn the US any large metal structures (including metal pipes and also ibeams and braces) are supposed to be explicitly grounded to the building wiring -- not just through contact with the earth. This is probably a bigger deal in the US where GFCIs are only required in wet areas. The issue is that the primary purpose of the ground connecton is to carry a fault current in the case of a live wire contact. That means the current has to get back to the transformer. If you require it to go through the dirt, the connection may not be good enough depending on how it was installed and the soil type and moisture level. With a GFCI you only have to carry 30 mA, but for a US circuit breaker you need to carry >20 amp. Your electrical panel's grounding rod should be pretty good but there is no guarantee your copper pipes will be well grounded.In practice plenty of plumbing fixtures are probably completely floating. They are usually installed right initially but eventually someone repairs a broken pipe with a segment of PVC and leaves a big chunk of copper with no ground connection.

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 04:34:42 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on June 14, 2019, 02:33:01 amService entrace wire that goes between the utility wattmeter and the breaker panel is usually multi-strand aluminum. These are usually 1/0 AWG or thicker so stranded is a must.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 04:57:07 am
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on June 14, 2019, 03:33:35 amBeing completely floating is totally fine. Being at some uncontrolled potential is not fine.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 07:33:49 am
content: I guess the thinking is that anything metal, including pipes, that is insulated and floating, could come into contact with a live wire and become live so it makes sense to earth a pipe like it does to earth the cooking stove.Electric water heaters are grounded here but also generally have plastic nipples to insulate them from the pipes. I guess this is to avoid electrolytic corrosion.That's part of the problem. You sometimes have to choose between problems.PEX is being used more and more in place of copper so earthing pipes is no longer necessary.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 04:19:53 pm
content: That's exactly why, metal pipes can and have become live due to coming in contact with live wiring somewhere, wiring is not supposed to be in contact with metal pipes but as was mentioned earlier in this thread you find all kinds of stuff out there. I've seen abandoned wires dead ended in a wall cavity that were still live. All metal pipes and conduit are required to be earth grounded here.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 04:27:10 pm
content: Quote from: radar_macgyver on June 14, 2019, 04:34:42 amIt's also common on high current branch circuits. Stranded aluminum wire is commonly found feeding clothes dryers, water heaters, kitchen stoves, hot tubs, electric furnaces, etc. anything requiring 40+ Amps. I have one aluminum branch circuit in my house although it's no longer used as I switched to a gas stove.

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 12:53:36 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 14, 2019, 04:19:53 pmMetal pipes in the county I live in are no longer allowed to be used for grounding sources, you have to drive ground rods on all new installs.I think it had to do with the county being mainly rural and homes would be plumbed with copper and then connect to PVC for water lines running to well pumps.

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 12:58:49 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 14, 2019, 12:07:13 amI hate push terminals. I guess some really good ones exist but on most outlets I have replaced the wire pulls out as I remove the outlet from the box.I was talking with a guy who was taking his first residential electrician class and he was telling me , while shaking his head , that he wouldn't let half the guys that were in his class wire anything, and how sad it was they were just pushing them through to keep class numbers high due to people not interested in becoming electricians.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 05:45:00 pm
content: Quote from: ptricks on June 15, 2019, 12:53:36 pmAs far as I know, the national code across the US doesn't allow water pipes to be used as a ground, but they still have to be grounded. The entire grounding system has to tie into the ground bus in the main panel.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2019, 08:23:29 am
content: Only tangentially related to CCA mains wiring, I finally had my first experience with CCA wire in cheap electronics. A friend asked if I could figure out what’s wrong with a DC barrel plug extension cord (used for some LED lamp doodad) which seemed to have an intermittent contact.Indeed it did, the center pin on the jack being loose and not quite centered. It didn’t take long to figure out why. The solder job was really bad, big blobs with weird residue up in strands, and it was clear the center pin connection had been overheated, damaging the connector. The cable itself was actually just red/black zip cord with heatshrink on it (why?!?).I cut off the old inline jack, stripped and tinned fresh ends and tried to solder that to a new jack. But by the time the solder flowed around the lug, it pulled back from the wire and would not wet the joint. A quick scraping of some virgin strands revealed it to be CCA, and I guess the copper layer is so thin that literally only 2x3-5 seconds (first to tin, second to reflow onto lug) of (fairly gentle) solder heating was enough to completely dissolve the copper layer into the solder, making wetting impossible. I was able to solder it just fine by skipping initial tinning and just going straight in. But I’m going to recommend that my friend get a new cable of known quality...

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2019, 08:53:44 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 15, 2019, 05:45:00 pmThat is a newer requirement (at least newer than my house, which was built in the early 70's). Luckily the only aluminum wiring I have is in the downlead from the pole and meter. The branch line underground to my pool might be aluminum, but the pool was installed in the late 90's. I pulled out two 220 lines, when I bought the house there was a built in electric oven and an electric cooktop. I replaced both with a gas range, and pulled both those circuits (and ran a pair of 120V lines - one for the electrics on the range, and the former oven space I converted to shelves with a semi-built in microwave). Both those lines were copper.