Solar farm wrecked by giant hail! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 06:54:23 pm
content: https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/solar/solar-farm-pelted-by-giant-hail-as-severe-storm-ripped-through-nebraska/

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 06:56:12 pm
content: Who would have thought that could happen!

author: AK6DN
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 07:10:05 pm
content: From the article ... "The Scottsbluff project features more than 14,000 JA Solar 380W modules, Brown said, andutilizes a single-axis tracker system with hail stow capabilitiesfrom Array Technologies.While it's unclear if the asset's hail stow program was activated during the weather event, damage to the face of the modules indicates it was not. "Indeed.From Array Technologies website ... "Wind and hail present a dual-threat challenge.Solar trackers that place modules in a flat orientation during severe wind events paradoxically then place modules at highest risk of damage from large hail.Given that NOAA recorded over 4,600 severe weather events in 2018 with hail and winds over 58 MPH, an inflexible, uncoordinated response to a combined wind and hail event will inevitably increase risk."I would speculate the high winds came first and the system went into lay-the-panels-flat-mode.And then the hail, and since the panels were all oriented parallel to the ground to minimize wind load, maximum hail damage.Mother nature gets you coming and going.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 09:40:28 pm
content: Does sound like a tough problem to solve. Either have to make the panels super thick and handle the impacts, or reinforce the structures to take the wind energy.https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/12/24/weekend-read-navigating-hailstorms/They do say "wind instability" so maybe it doesn't directly tear out the panels but might cause them to flex or shake until they fatigue.Quote from: karpouzi9 on July 03, 2023, 07:16:52 pmKeep it on topic.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 10:13:09 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on July 03, 2023, 09:40:28 pmflip them upside down?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 10:15:35 pm
content: Random events like this is what you have insurance or pooled costs for, at the end of the day a tornado could have come right through and ripped all the panels off. I am sure other electricity infrastructure was damaged as well, and this does not inherently make solar panels useless.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 10:28:20 pm
content: Tom66 has it right, you have to consider that conventional coal fired plants have the distribution issues where individual pockets of damage happen, regularly, such as tree falling on overhead wires...so it could end up being a wash as to which major system is at the most risk.Seems like the distribution infrastructure dominates the economics, with the generation plant being a close second.That, however, still means that HAIL damage is a serious concern.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 10:54:50 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on July 03, 2023, 09:40:28 pmOnly economically. You can just make the glass thicker. You could make the module from individual PV+glass segments with rubber backing, a 10x10 cm segment would just move as a whole instead of bending significantly.Supposedly the Sunman flexible solar cells are also hail tested, I wonder how those even survive "normal" hail to begin with. Maybe they are segmented in such a way that destroyed sections only lower the output?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 11:03:59 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on July 03, 2023, 10:54:50 pmMaybe they test with a gap so the flexibility helps with impact absorbtion? Either way their spec sounds impressive."The vented gap (height increase of ~15mm) improves panel efficiency and reduces heating of the mounting surface.A structural silicone (Fix8) can be used to adhere the panel to a surface.Tough - Hail tested with ice stones of 35mm diameter and 200g mass at 39.5m per sec"This was standard testing as per the previous link: "According to IEC 61215, product designs must withstand 11 impacts of a 25 mm ball of ice traveling at terminal velocity (~22m/s), which results in an impact force of 1.99 joules."

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 02:00:36 am
content: Notice how a panel besides a completely trashed panel are completely free from damage....thats a bit odd.....Hmm!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 02:01:59 am
content: That's just a quantum effect!

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 04:14:15 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 04, 2023, 02:01:59 amSchrodinger's cat was alive on those panel.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 05:55:25 am
content: Well, gazillion of PV panels are installed everywhere and such problems are rare. Massive hailstorms also destroy roofs and cars (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-lm&q=hailstorm&tbm=isch&sa=X), yet SiliconWizard is not demanding stronger cars or thicker windshields to be made. At some point it's just diminishing return and it makes more sense to sell lower cost cars/roofs/PV panels which are destroyed in 0.01% cases and just replaced (either by pocketing the savings and paying for it yourself, or paying for insurances upfront), because doing otherwise would incur higher total cost.

author: DarkMode
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 08:31:02 am
content: RIP

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 09:19:28 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on July 03, 2023, 10:15:35 pmAgreed. It could be these panels are weaker compared to what is usual or that the hail was excessively heavy (or both). Good quality solar panels can take quite a beating:

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 11:37:20 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on July 03, 2023, 10:13:09 pmThat certainly won't help. Depending an the module, there even might be only a plastic film on the back instead of glass on top.After all, this is just a question of cost saving - I'd say it is overall cheaper to replace weather damaged panels (due to extremely heavy weather) than protect them all from damage in the first place.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 12:21:33 pm
content: I'd say sell them at scrap prices to DIYers and let them figure out how to repair or repurpose them for use at home.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 12:46:31 pm
content: "Useless"? Well, of course not. But you have to think of these things. Insurance may be the answer, but that makes the pay-period longer. Somebody's gotta pay the piper. Free power isn't free.Quote from: tom66 on July 03, 2023, 10:15:35 pm

author: Alti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 01:05:14 pm
content: I think hail or wind insurance is a waste of money in this GenPro Energy Solutions case. It would have been more profitable to invest in 10 locations all over the region, based on correlation of hail storms or tornado. Probability of natural disaster everywhere at the same time is zero. Insurer does exactly same calculus, adds markup and puts that on their bill.As for protecting panels against hail - I guess there is some hail size probability vs toughness equation that governs the cost it takes to make 1kWh long term. If it is ultimately cheaper to make 1kWh with thinner panel - why not? If it is cheaper to make 1kWh with thicker panel - go for it. They are the most competent to answer those questions.BTW, clearly there are at least two grades of panels installed there. So now they have even more data to feed the model and to infer whether to upgrade in direction of thinner or thicker panels. Their goal isnotto avoid cracked panels, but to make money. Are they aware of it? Lets hope so.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 01:30:51 pm
content: Insurance makes sense for events where the cost of recovery (replacing the majority of a solar farm for instance) is far beyond the resources of a single organisation. Sure, they could keep in reserve the funds to build another solar plant, or build a few more, but what if they don't have access to that capital? Their investors may not want to build 10 plants. So they might take out an insurance policy at (example) 0.1% of the value of the plant to cover the (example) 1 in 5000 chance of an event like this happening. Sure the insurance company makes a profit but there's nothing wrong with that - there has to be an upside for both parties.The same argument could be made for car insurance, beyond legally required 3rd party liability. Why not just replace the car if it is totalled? Well most people can't afford that...Very large organisations can afford to self insure. I doubt, for instance, Apple insures its campus building.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 01:57:16 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 04, 2023, 02:01:59 amMore likely a resonance effect. One hailstone does nothing, one hailstone meeting the glass on a rebound of another cracks it. Once there is one crack, the whole thing is weakened.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 02:02:33 pm
content: Quote from: Alti on July 04, 2023, 01:05:14 pmIMO PV is going to move to minimal mounting, minimal materials. There's tricks you can play like connecting segments of PV to each other with serpentine conductors to vastly increase their ability to flex.It's going to be so cheap that every new building surface can just have it without increasing its cost.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 10:03:32 pm
content: Quote from: Haenk on July 04, 2023, 11:37:20 amYou'd have some foam on the bottom, or a triangular shield to divert the wind, etc. pennies worth of material.It wouldn't be that difficult if the panels could rotate 360 degrees, but, since most panels are only designed around moving within ~15 degrees its probably not realistic cost wise.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2023, 01:59:40 am
content: Quote from: RJHayward on July 03, 2023, 10:28:20 pmOnly because authorities are too gutless to insist any tree that can reach/compromise critical power infrastructure should have a death warrant out on it.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2023, 06:51:20 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 05, 2023, 01:59:40 amNot in GermanyAt least not 20 years back.I vividly remember a troop of forest workers cutting a lane through a small piece of forest where our overhead line went through. That line was only 220 volts, so not much was actually cut, a falling tree would still have been able to knock it down i think, but anything in danger to actually touch the line was cut.This was on our land, and we had to pay for that every couple of years.By now the line has been buried though, as have been almost all power lines in my area.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2023, 07:46:01 am
content: Quote from: Ranayna on July 05, 2023, 06:51:20 amTransmission lines through private land is a double edged sword in that if it only supplies the landowner then only their supply is at risk however if the infrastructure goes on to supply others then it must be protected, be it on private or public land.Here in NZ the tree huggers kick up such a fuss over any tree maintenance however where we are in a rural location cooking, eating and living by candlelight is from another long past century !Some just can't understand how lives have been so dramatically improved by the provision of power so to not need to cut vast tracts of trees for firewood and cooking so the few that endanger power infrastructure would be of no loss to society when in fact their loss would be of more value to humanity.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2023, 01:14:20 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on July 05, 2023, 07:46:01 amThey should rally against factory farming contributing to deforestation in Brazil.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2023, 01:52:37 pm
content: One of engineering salient traits is that after a failure, it investigates the root causes, analyzes the failure mechanisms, designs the appropriate corrective actions, test them, incorporate them into the “lessons learned” and move on with life.A company I worked for in the late 90s had a gigantic “archive of mistakes” which was amazing to read. Many of the issues were obvious, but again, hindsight is always 20/20.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2023, 02:09:49 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on July 05, 2023, 01:52:37 pmexperience is proportional to the price of broken gear

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2023, 08:44:02 pm
content: Yes, the problem is when:- we keep repeating mistakes that were either obvious from the get-go with SoA knowledge;- we keep repeating mistakes that we already made before;- we don't investigate the root causes and move on ("shit happens").While I admit that the first one can happen occasionally even with the best intentions, the two others are unfortunately too frequent and not really defendable.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2023, 08:54:34 pm
content: I wonder how hard/expensive it would be to just take them off one-by-one and replace the glass? I'm guessing they could reclaim 90%+ of those for a fraction of the cost of new.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2023, 08:58:37 pm
content: If this was an exceptional event, damage is probably just something you have to live with. Hail rarely comes down in cricket balls sized lumps, so engineering to take such impacts probably just pushes up overall costs. A friend took a picture of a street in an affluent part of Beijing some years ago, when cricket ball sized hail fell. There were a lot of very expensive cars in a very sorry state. Hoods and trunks heavily dented. Most of the glass broken. The reasonable response to that is not to reinforce every car produced.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2023, 09:52:09 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on July 05, 2023, 08:54:34 pmIts going to be a huge pain to remove the glass. Maybe with heat and a lot of manual processing... maybe, if it is a mild adhesive.Man I feel bad for these guys breathing in the glass:

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2023, 12:11:57 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on July 05, 2023, 08:54:34 pmI would paint a layer of resin or other sealant over the ones that still work to seal them, then just keep using them.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2023, 12:25:12 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 05, 2023, 01:14:20 pmThey do!PS: Oops!, Sorry, I read it as farming in Brazil-----as in cutting down trees in great swathes to allow normal farming.The people who rally against factory farming are not worried so much about the environment, but about animal welfare.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2023, 01:50:52 am
content: Ouch that sucks. That's my fear with having solar. I plan to add a larger array and due to nature of my yard the most effective way to set them up is to put them flat as they need to be high up to get sun and putting them at an angle would have them ridiculously high. By having them flat it will make them even more vulnerable as the hail will hit them more directly. Though considering these were angled I guess it doesn't matter that much either way. Hail does come in at an angle sometimes so if unlucky it will hit them dead on as well.Hail also tends to come out of nowhere too so it would be really hard to prepare for. Like you could have some kind of plywood cover you can put on but you won't have time to actually go do that when the hail actually starts to hit. Would need to be able to fully automate deployment but that means it needs to stow away somehow and take up extra space. I guess you could put the plywood behind the panels and have the panels rotate out, but then you're now dealing with mechanical things that also have to be strong enough to handle very strong winds.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2023, 02:18:12 am
content: Hail in Nebraska? Who'd have thought...It's unfortunate that the insurance claim for this is going to drive up costs. Assuming a claim can be made as the panel's safety tilt system was obviously not deployed. As if it would work having the backside to the hail, the wiring/junction boxes would then get trashed instead.I'm suspicious there are quite a few panels with no damage, as if the glass is oddly stronger than the others but they show well over 10 breaks. Someone mentioned "resonance" but there could be variance in the glass strength.I think you could have a roll out webbing/tent canopy that sits high above the panels. Like a fine fishnet to catch the hail or let it spill off the ends. No metal poles to attract lightning though.You need the rollers and frame to sweep across panels in winter to remove snow, so having it with a cover should be something that can be done.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2023, 06:46:59 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 05, 2023, 08:44:02 pmGenerally couldn't agree more, but I think weather damage for solar panels has been very well root-cause-analyzed and PV panel manufacturing adjusted (e.g., glass thickness and materials) as a response. At some point we are at equilibrium where low hanging design improvements have been made and all that is left are the rare "shit happens" scenarios. Just like we don't build our car bodies out of 5mm thick steel but accept a hailstorm can destroy a car. Or we don't equip normal cars to survive and run in 3-feet deep water, but only do so in special cases. It makes no sense to make the PV panel cost say 20% more if that means the failure rate goes down from 0.1% to 0.07% (there would be still other failure modes than physical damage).Of course I could be wrong and maybe those particular panels were weaker than industry average. What I'm saying is, industry average is pretty much fine, the amount of PV capacity installed and running without any issues is mind-boggling.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 06, 2023, 08:21:07 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 05, 2023, 08:44:02 pmUnfortunately, I read this as a general statement about human history.War, famine, genocide, ecocide, etc.Were you talking just about solar?