Anyone heard of these new kind of opamps ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 03:55:58 pm
content: Hey.So today i was going through the net when i found these things.http://www.bursonaudio.com/creations/discrete-opamp/Have any of you guys heard of or tried these "opamps" ?To me it seems like some audiophool bullshit but i'll let you decide.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 04:00:39 pm
content: Hardly "new". People have been making op-amps from discrete components since before we had integrated circuits, and they have continued to make them up to this day. This vendor is not the only player. I agree it smells very strongly of audiophoolery.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 04:04:50 pm
content: When you look at the datasheet, it isn't particularly well filled out, and the parameters are kind of crap.Offset voltage (mV): 120uV - so 120 micro-millivolts? so 120nV? - being nitpicky but it's just sloppy.0.004% THD at 1kHz isn't a good standard. THD gets worse with frequency, so for audio, you would want 0.004% THD at 22kHz, not 1kHz. Map this to dB, 0.004 * 0.01 = 40ppm, or -88dB. The old as hell AD797 (http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/data_sheets/AD797.pdf) has -98dB THD at 250kHz, and -120dB at 20kHz (0.0001%), so yeah this discrete amp is just more wank.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 04:07:56 pm
content: @XFDDesign, don't you understand? They are talking about how they SOUND. Mere scientific testing is no match for their Golden Ears(TM)Those of us with Tin Ears will never be able to understand those people because they have so much better perception (and imagination) than we do.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 04:10:09 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on October 31, 2014, 04:07:56 pmMan be thankful you have Tin Ears. Mine are made of Wicker and rubber cement.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 07:32:44 pm
content: Well i guess some apples aren't apples enough.

author: gxti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 07:47:48 pm
content: Previously discussed here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/more-audiophoolery-discrete-op-amps-better-than-ics!/

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 07:56:03 pm
content: The leads on the resistors aren't even gold plated! No way that thing will sound good.

author: Alexei.Polkhanov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 08:08:32 pm
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on October 31, 2014, 04:10:09 pmI cannot hear the difference between mono and stereo, honestly. Where does that place me in audiophile ranks?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 08:16:40 pm
content: They missed out on something, they should have used really small transistors and placed them on something small so that they are all going to have the same temperature. You know, if they used transistors all from the same area on the die then they likely will all be almost identical. Wonder just how good that would be, none of this mix n match and all those horrid pots with noise and needing twiddling every hour to compensate as the parts age and heat up.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 08:21:15 pm
content: They definitely are not too analytical like regular opamps therefore won't artificially limit your sonic imaginary. They will please you with slightly warm sound yet you still will be able to feel tiniest nuance of the music. With these discrete opamps you will reach new level of listening pleasure you even could not dream about. As you should know, using test equipment cannot distinguish any difference between many opamps, yet they sound completely different. Therefore we gathered a team of enlightened audio professionals with golden ears who spent many years of extensive research and testing to achieve this amazing sound. And all this miracle which took us decades of enormous effort to bring into this world, now only for $70, exclusively for you.P.S.I think I need to change a way how I earn my money

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 08:47:52 pm
content: QuoteOpamps long existed before integrated circuits so technically, all opamps were discrete, at some point. Some were even made out of tubes.Whether you find them better is up to you.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 09:14:43 pm
content: QuoteThe amount of bullshit wooow i was really shocked about what i just read.Loads of more wank around the audiophool industry, so much details that i never heard of.Depth of bullshit got so high that i just got blown to oblivion.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2014, 02:25:22 am
content: Quote from: Alexei.Polkhanov on October 31, 2014, 08:08:32 pmI think you classify as normal human. Sorry for the demotion.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2014, 02:50:19 am
content: Quote from: Alexei.Polkhanov on October 31, 2014, 08:08:32 pmThen you may be entertained by this epic discussion....https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/942705-mono-better-than-stereo.htmlOTOH, have you had a serious medical exam to test both your ears?

author: LukeW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2014, 03:30:03 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on October 31, 2014, 07:56:03 pmNo, for optimum listening performance the resistor leads need to be coated with "special quantum cream". Yes seriously.http://pwbelectronics.co.uk/product/qrfqc/qrfqc.html

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2014, 08:02:23 am
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on October 31, 2014, 03:55:58 pmFrom their page: "Regardless of the analytical capability of the audio gear, an inferior opamp will halve a machine’s performance, and distort every dB of sonic imagery."Really?I've made my decision.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2014, 10:02:45 am
content: Quote"x" film, must be the same origin as the chemical X in Powerpuff girls.

author: Chipguy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 02, 2014, 03:10:02 pm
content: Audiophoolery at it's bestThat's how solid state amplifiers were built in the late 60's because discrete parts were cheaper than ICs.No one would seriously consider them

author: LektroiD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2014, 04:22:51 pm
content: I agree there is a lot of audiophoolery out there (and this discrete opamp is one example of it), but it's a fine balance. Years ago when opamp ICs first came to light, they sounded terrible, so discretes were always favoured. Even now, compare the old LM741 to the much lower noise TL071, there is a marked difference, especially if you have a 32 channel mixing console with one on every channel. The 741's sound like Niagra Falls with all the channels turned up.If you want to see some real audiophoolery, check out this£699 power cable, or theseElectromagnetic Stabilizer Stones...

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2014, 05:05:28 pm
content: More from that site...http://pwbelectronics.co.uk/whatamess.htmlQuote

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2014, 05:18:24 pm
content: Designs with discrete or isolated input stages do have a couple of advantages; large geometry input transistors have low voltage noise and having them separate from the output stage prevents thermal feedback from causing long settling times and lower gain. (*) Precision operational amplifiers use special input transistor geometry relative to the output transistors to alleviate these problems. These advantages can also be gained by using a separate monolithic pair with a conventional operational amplifier without sacrificing input offset and drift.Integrated designs have gotten so much better though in the past 20 years that any improvement except perhaps when using JFET input stages is going to be marginal.(*) In monolithic designs, gain can be limited by thermal effects on the input transistors from the output transistors. This is one reason it is often a good idea to limit output loading.

author: LukeW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2014, 05:25:41 pm
content: This one from AOpen was a favorite of mine... not just a tube but of course you've got to have the gigantic dc-blocking capacitors too

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2014, 05:46:47 pm
content: The other day my Hifi sounded flat and dull. Then I farted and it sounded OK again. Should I have bottled that?

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2014, 06:01:55 pm
content: Quote from: LektroiD on November 02, 2014, 04:22:51 pmhttp://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-NRG-WEL-Signature-Series/dp/B0055OM9WS/ref=cm_cr_pr_pdt_img_top?ie=UTF8Quote