Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 01:11:04 am
content: (Long time lurker, first time poster.)I'm in the market for a new scope. I've looked at everything - Keysight, Tek, LeCroy, Yokogawa, Rigol, Owon, etc. There are so many dimensions to the decision that it's hard to sort it all out. I realize this a deep, sometimes emotional, and oft-discussed topic so let me keep the fundamental question as simple as possible. I'll provide some background and then pose the question at the end.Background:My requirements are 100MHz (but 200MHz would be much better), either 4A or 2A+digital channels, relatively deep memory, and - here's the kicker - CAN decoding. If it weren't for CAN, I'd grab an MSO1104Z for a kilobuck and live with the narrower bandwidth. But the 1000 series doesn't offer CAN decoding so I have to move to more expensive options.I'm partial to HP/Agilent/KeySight because I have friends who have worked there for decades, am familiar with their gear, and already have some specialized HP stuff around. I also have lots of experience with Tek, and even Philips (back in the day - I really loved the Philips analog scopes and still have a PM3214 sitting within arm's reach!). But after doing straight comparisons between the Big Brands and Rigol, the former simply want too much money while cheating you on bandwidth or memory or digital channels or whatever. There's just too much of a price premium, even with KeySight's current "all options free" deal. (They had a similar deal going last summer too, and I almost pulled the trigger then.)Yes, I understand the concept of using multiple scopes and chaining them together via trigger out/in. But that doesn't give me all of my recorded data on one screen. If I need more than two analog channels, I'm usually correlating data so the multiple scope approach just doesn't work well for me. I need a single device so everything correlates easily.Sticking with Rigol for the moment, since I need CAN I'm forced to go to at least the 2000 series. But it only has two analog channels. To get four, I'm forced to the 4000 series and a big step up in cost. Other than the two extra analog channels, I don't really need the additional features of the 4000 series, so the entire decision is ultimately coming down to a question of analog vs. digital channels.Thankfully, the Rigol digital channels are reasonably configurable. Trigger voltage thresholds, etc. can be dialed in such that I presume they *can* be used on an analog signal in a pinch for triggering purposes. Or, I can rube up a circuit to give the scope an psuedo-digital representation of the analog signal.So... which does the hive mind think is the better choice: Two 200MHz analog + 16 digital channels (MSO2022A), or four 100MHz analog and zero digital channels (DS4014)? They are roughly 10% apart in price. Both come with the "free software bundle" that gives me CAN and a bunch of other stuff for no extra charge. It's not often that I need more than 100MHz but if you do there's no substitute, you can't fake your way there like substituting digital for analog, you either have the bandwidth or you don't. There are other considerations: 2000 series is the newer design (I think), 4000 series has a larger screen and lots more memory and faster waveform capture, etc. But let's keep it simple.I can have 2A@200MHz + 16D, or I can have 4A@100MHz, for about the same price. Which is more valuable? Which would you buy, and why?Thanks!

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 01:22:19 am
content: Why do you need a scope to analyze CAN? A $10 Saleae logic analyzer clone will do that much better.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 01:34:00 am
content: Well, strictly speaking I can also handle my CAN work with some bare PCB circuits I have lying around. But after doing that for a long time I thought it would be nice to just be able to connect up a few probes and get there a LOT faster. I'll look into the cheap alternative that you mentioned, I appreciate the idea.But back to my question: Which direction would you go, of the two I asked about? Four slower analog channels, or two faster ones with digital too?

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 02:16:52 am
content: Just re-watched "EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope"... makes it pretty clear that dropping back to the DS1000 series gives up a lot of useful features. Granted the DS1000Z series improves on that, but I'm rethinking the idea of just taking a 1000 series scope. Just might be giving up too much.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 03:04:22 am
content: I bought a DS4014 a few months ago, and struggled with a few of the same conflicts you mentioned. However, I find it very adequate for my needs (which include CAN decoding). I show some detailed considerationshere.One tip I give you is look atRigol's clearance bin- I got mine in pristine condition, and they have a MSO2202A and a DS4012 going for interesting prices at the moment.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 04:05:28 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 07, 2015, 03:04:22 amGreat thread, thanks for the cite. I've scanned it and will go back and read it in detail as soon as I'm done replying here.QuoteYep, I noticed that. But I also noticed that the warranty is only 90 days, instead of the three years you get with a new unit. That scares me a bit for something this expensive that I plan on keeping for many years. I also suspect those clearance units won't include the free bundle of options they're offering right now, and the cost for the bundle is more than the savings, so for the same or less cost I can get a full three year warranty plus all of the bundle options. At least that's my thinking at the moment, no matter which way I go.Thank you for replying, I really appreciate it!

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 07:45:47 pm
content: OK, I 've done some further serious considering about this question and thought I'd share my thought process, in case it helps others noodling over the same topic.I've re-read and re-watched all of the applicable videos, both Dave's and others I could find. I've also scanned the manuals for the various models, not just Rigol but also KeySight's 2000 and 3000 series. My goal is to be able to make an informed decision based on what the various models actually deliver.Finally, I've really considered my application for this new scope - what I'm really going to do with it. And this last point made the biggest difference, because I realized that what I'm really seeking here is the ability to capture, playback, and analyze data. mos6502 was right (thank you!), the serial decode can be done better for cheaper by another instrument and thus shouldn't be a major deciding factor. Nice to have, but not critical. The ability to capture historical signal data and correlate it after the fact is the biggest new feature that this scope will bring to my bench.Based on that realization, I almost convinced myself to drop back to the MSO1104Z for ~$1000. It has an almost unbeatable set of features: FOUR analog channels, 16 digital channels, more default memory than the Big Brands, etc. Yes, the bandwidth is somewhat limited at 100MHz but it would still cover 95% of the stuff I do regularly. A kilobuck for a 4A+16D waveform capture system is amazing, and almost a no-brainer.But waveform capture feels like a second-class feature on the 1000Z series. Right off the bat, it's an extra cost option; not a lot more money, but still, it speaks volumes that they don't include it as a fundamental feature of the scope. Next, its controls are buried deep in the menu system (even Dave mentioned this in his 1000 vs. 2000 comparison video). Once again, it feels like this feature is a second-class citizen.Contrast that with the 2000A series. Waveform capture and segmented memory are native features on the basic instrument. Its controls aren't buried deep in the menus, they're individual discrete physical controls mounted RIGHT ON THE FRONT PANEL. That screams of an instrument designed from the start to capture and analyze data. Which happens to be the primary reason I'm buying a new scope!As for the 4000A series... well, to be honest, the price just feels like too much money to be putting into what we must all admit is still a second-tier instrument company. I think Rigol is making great strides (or I wouldn't consider giving them my money), but they have a ways to go before they match HP/Agilent/KeySight, Tektronix, LeCroy, or even Hameg. If I'm going to spend 4000A-series money, I'm going to look harder at other brands. And honestly, the 4000A series doesn't bring that much more value to my situation. It might be *nice* to have faster waveform updates, but I don't *need* it. 140M sample memory is better than 56M, but when Tek is still shipping 2.4K (?!?) does it really matter that I'm yet another 2x farther above?It just feels like the 2000A series is the current sweet spot for what I want: A deep-memory waveform capture system. I would dearly love to have two more analog channels, but that means either the 1000Z series (where the specific feature I'm seeking is treated as an afterthought) or the 4000A series (which basically doubles the cost just to get two more analog channels at lower bandwidth for the money).So at the moment, I'm settling in on the MSO2202A as the best overall compromise, balancing all the competing criteria. 2A+16D at 200MHz for $2K before haggling. We shall see!Hope this helps someone. If you have a different opinion, I'd love to hear it before I start making phone calls tomorrow. Thanks!

author: Kappes Buur
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 08:43:12 pm
content: If you go for the MSO2202A, then you should also take advantage of the special options offerhttp://www.rigolna.com/bundle/However, before committing to a final decision, have you also read these threadshttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso2000-news/msg721642/#msg721642https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso2000-series-hacking/msg483376/#msg483376There are some nice standalone logic analyzers available.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 08:56:06 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on September 07, 2015, 01:11:04 amSiglent?http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=25&T=2&tid=1

author: Stupid Beard
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 09:30:53 pm
content: In case you're not aware, one limitation of the Rigols is that the serial decoding only works with what's on the screen and not the full waveform in memory. At least that is the case with the analog channels, I don't have an MSO so I don't know how it fares on the digital channels.How much of a limitation that is depends on what you want the serial decoding for. It's fine for some uses, but if you want to do any kind of detailed analysis or logging you're probably best off just using a separate logic analyser.

author: Shavik
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 09:43:01 pm
content: Quote from: Stupid Beard on September 07, 2015, 09:30:53 pmI'm currently in the market for a new scope and I thought that I read this was only a problem on the DS1000Z series scope. the DS2x and DS4x performed analysis on the sampled data, not the displayed data.Do you know if that's true?

author: Kappes Buur
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 10:23:38 pm
content: Quote from: Shavik on September 07, 2015, 09:43:01 pmIn my response above I linked to atx's thread discussing just that.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 10:23:47 pm
content: Quote from: Kappes Buur on September 07, 2015, 08:43:12 pmYep, that's one of the reasons the 2000A series pencils out well. Those options are included at no extra cost.QuoteYes, thank you, I've read those and countless others. WRT not decoding deep memory, one thread I read suggested that the problem of not decoding as you scroll through memory had been fixed in a recent firmware update. And unless I'm misunderstanding something, I sort of get their comment about "only decoding what's on the screen"... I don't care if the scope has prefetched and predecoded stuff I'm not actually looking at in real time. If it decodes it as I scroll it onto the screen, that's fine with me. But THAT was broken for a long time, according to the threads I've read, and that would be awful except that I read a thread last night (on this site) that it had been fixed. Can anyone confirm? I can dig around and try to find the thread again, it was a VERY long one.QuoteIndeed, as another respondent noted, I'd be better off letting one of those handle my primary protocol decoding needs. That deprecated the need for CAN, as I noted above, which is why I temporarily gave the 1000Z series another look before realizing they don't handle waveform acquisition nearly as well as the 2000A and 4000A series.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 10:26:11 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 07, 2015, 08:56:06 pmMy apologies, I did look at them but so far they seem yet another strata below Rigol. The online reviews don't inspire confidence.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 10:27:45 pm
content: Quote from: Stupid Beard on September 07, 2015, 09:30:53 pmAs I noted above:QuoteI guess I need to dig that thread up again. Let me see if I can find it.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 10:45:38 pm
content: Found it. From the "Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc..." thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/msg421301/#msg421301), wherein user Teneyes reports that:Quote...and user H.O replies:Quote...and then Mark_O replies:QuoteSo it seems that this problem has been fixed in the 2000A series since at least April of last year (2014). I don't know if it's STAYED fixed, or if the 4000A series ever got the fix. Anyone with either model know and care to share the data?Do the firmware numbers track across the different series? If so, is there a V3 available for the 4000A?Glad we're wrestling this question down right now!

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 01:19:32 am
content: QuoteMy DS4014 on current firmware definitely _does_ update the decoded data when scrolling through the memory. And it has for some time from memory. However the list of decoded packets will only show entries for what is on the screen, and it updates as you scroll thru the memory.To display more packets in the list then you need to 'zoom out' using the timebase before capturing. That way the packets are all on the screen and are displayed one after the other in the list of decoded packets.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 01:59:38 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on September 08, 2015, 01:19:32 amThis sounds like how itshouldwork.QuoteExactly. How else could it work? Where would it display the decoded information, if the data being decoded is offscreen?What version of firmware are you running? I'm still trying to find out if the 2000A and 4000A series firmware stays in sync, which would suggest that fixes for one would appear in the other once the same version number was made available.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 02:52:38 am
content: QuoteI quess some people expected the list to be populated from all packets found in the entire memory. Regarding where to display it; I was talking about the decoders list/table/history function - which is just a list of the decoded packets and is where they would logically be displayed if the memory was decoded.Its the first scope I've used with serial decode, so I don't know how other brands do it.IMHO the decoding works fine, unless of course you hate Rigol - in which case its unusable crapI've think much of the 'collective wisdom' on this scope around here comes from comments which are a year or more out of date. There are 2 or 3 firmware updates a year and there is no up to date bug list on the forums. I'm on the current firmware and am happy to test and report back if you have any questions about specific features.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 03:55:30 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on September 08, 2015, 02:52:38 amI suspect you're absolutely correct about that. Bad news about bugs gets posted multiple times and lingers forever, while news of fixes doesn't get the same exposure. Hence research like I'm doing is quick to find multiple bug reports but you really have to dig to find that it's been fixed.I may take you up on that offer to confirm things... let me run through my list so I don't waste your time. Thanks in advance.What version of firmware are you running? This is on a 2000A series, correct?

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 04:18:27 am
content: QuoteIts a DS4014 with the latest firmware 00.02.02.04.03(I'm at my day job so I got that version # from this page:http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm)btw comparing the release notes will be one way to compare the 4000 and 2000 firmware status. I'll attach the 4000 release notes.The 2000 series apparently has a couple of features that the 4000 doesn't have - as it is newer. Off the top of my head windowed triggers was one.

author: atx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 05:00:58 am
content: IDEngineer,As I mentioned in my threads, while the latest update fixed the biggest issue, namely the SCPI interface (that took almost a year to be fixed), the decoding hasn't been fixed and Rigol mentioned for the first time that the MSO2000 is not intended to decode the deep memory. Once I got that message from Rigol, I pretty much stopped investigating the issue as it is a bit difficult to figure out when the decoding fails. It depends on memory depth and sample frequency. The only good news is that the sampling is fully functional with any selected memory and you can now download the data through the SCPI. The download function is not fully fixed but works. The only issue I have encountered is that it always dumps out the full memory even if the LA has a smaller memory which unnecessarily lengthens the download. Other than that, certain SCPI commands are missing but that would be only important if you want to control the scope from a PC. I expect those to be hopefully fixed in the future. From experience, anything that doesn't work properly may be fixed or not and if so it takes quite a while...Here are a few things you might want to consider.The MSO costs about $400.- more then the regular scope.This gives you 16 digital channels and a sampling rate of up to 1GHz and a minimum pulse width of 5ns which would result in a bandwidth of about 200Mhz (I haven't verified that yet, but those specs are quite good).The LA of the MSO2000 on the scope is implemented weird to say the least. For example, it does not allow you to directly select a sample rate. If you manage to scale down the sampling rate and want to use the full memory, there is a high chance that decoding will not work. OTOH, due to the fact that there is no search function, the utility of the deep memory on the scope per se is questionable. Try to scroll through 28Msamples to find a specific sample with a little knob is not practical. As mentioned above, the download functionality is now fixed and you can analyze the data on a PC.I am not sure what the Usb based logic analyzers go for these days, but you might get more value with a separate device. I still prefer knobs and buttons on a scope over any PC-logic analyzer and I like to have both functions in a single device. The Rigol MSO2000 is certainly a compromise and I probably would not have bought it with the knowledge I have now, but I can live with it for now...Hope this helpsatx

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 06:01:37 am
content: Hi,Decoding of recorded frames is fixed on the DS40000.Scrolling thru single long capture works, it will decode the data that's currently on the screen but it MAY screw it up if the startbit of byte falls of the screen so you need to be a bit careful.QuoteVery true. I'll be happy to do specific tests on my DS4000 as well. Just let me know.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 06:12:47 am
content: QuoteAre you talking about only the LA digital channels here or does the decoding fail on the analog channels on the MSO2k too?It's a gut feeling but people using the MSO seem to be less happy than DS users.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 03:47:38 pm
content: Quote from: atx on September 08, 2015, 05:00:58 amThat seems to contradict what Teneyes reported (above). So who is correct? Can you scroll through captured data and have it decode what is displayed on the screen, or not?QuoteBy "compromise" are you speaking of the combined scope+LA aspect, or the overall machine? I'm concerned here that you feel the SCOPE part is a "compromise", when I'm strongly considering dropping a couple thousand dollars on one.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 03:50:27 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on September 08, 2015, 06:12:47 amArrrgh!That puts me right back where I started. All Ireallywant is a four channel 2000A series scope. I'm considering the MSO because its digital channels can (sometimes) substitute for the missing analog inputs. The alternative is to nearly double the price and halve the bandwidth to get four channels on a 4000A series. Grrrrrrr.

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 04:20:04 pm
content: Thats why you should add a Keysight 3000 series to your list

author: JackP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 04:26:37 pm
content: Or a DSO-X 2000A! £1400 for the barebones four channel model (or £800 for two), hack it to 200MHz, with ALL options (decoding, ARB...) and unlock the preinstalled digital channels?

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 05:26:09 pm
content: QuoteIt's probably not a fair comparison but if you pay twice the price for a DS4k (compared to a DS2k) you can, if you want, unlock the bandwidth to its full 500MHz. It's still twice the price buy you get double the number of channels, 2.5 times the bandwidth (compared to a 200MHz DS2k), more sample memory, higher capture rate, larger screen and most likely something else I've missed.You won't get the 500uV/div available on the DS2k though.More food for thought.....

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 07:46:02 pm
content: JackP has a point, although you end up with less bandwidth, less sample rate and less memory than a Rigol DS4014 if you go for theDSOX2004A. For some the smaller memory is not a problem (discussed on some threads around), while others think the deep memory of DS4k is a joke without search and memory segmentation. The bandwidth can be improved on both models, but the DS4k has the edge - again, some think it is not worth upgrading the bandwidth but instead buy it from the get go.To sweeten the DSOX deal, Keysight was running a promotion where you got all decoding options for free.This threadtalks about the promotion, but the user there (dadler) went through a heck of problems to enable these options for free (just keep reading the thread).

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 08:18:29 pm
content: QuoteThe DS4000 does have segmented memory.It does not have a specific function/feature called search and I'll have to admit I don't know how such a function works on the scopes that has it (enlighten me please) but you can, for example, perform analysis on the frames (up to ~200k of them) in memory and when complete you can jump back and forth between the frames that failed the test - and of course you can scroll thru all the frames at "any" rate you want.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 08:22:10 pm
content: QuoteI think this is incorrect.Memory is segmented on the ds4k based on each trigger event. How do other scopes do it?Memory search is simplistic - based on variation from a template or variation from the average. I expect other brands have more features here.This doc is hard to read, but gives the ideahttp://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-02fa/1/-/-/-/-/file.pdfQuote^^ +1 that's what made the ds4k for me. There isn't anything else that can compete in that space. If you don't need the bandwidth/sample rate then you are lucky, as there are many more options!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 09:06:15 pm
content: Thanks H.O and hendorog. I stand corrected on the segmentation.The memory search on other brands is more flexible. I am familiar with WaveScan on LeCroy, which has more features, although some only applicable to their built-in LA.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 09:06:24 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on September 08, 2015, 03:50:27 pmThis is exactly where I was. I even went through the trouble of trying two DS2072's side by side but was not happy with it. I picked up a DS4014 and have not looked back. It does all I ask of it. You can run two channels (1 and 3) a 4GSa/s or all 4 channels at 2GSa/s. It can be unlocked to higher bandwidth if you like as well. My only concern besides the price was the noise people reported, but the noise doesn't bother me.My opinion is that the scope based LA's are just not as easy to work with as something like a Saleae logic analyzer, in fact I use my older model Saleae 16 far more than I use the scope and it was 10% of the scope's price! Saleae has USB3 versions out now that are much faster than the one I have. I've tried to use the built in decoding on many Rigol's (DS2K, DS4K, older models) and it is not in the same class of usability.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 10:08:47 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on September 08, 2015, 09:06:24 pmRight, and agreed, thanks to others who chimed in the the same observations (especially from the perspective of protocol decode). I've removed protocol decoding as a primary criterion from the decision process. The only downside that I see is that captured analog and digital information isn't on a common display, but if you're willing to act like you're watching a ping pong match between two screens you can get past that.QuoteI know this makes me look wishy washy and indecisive, but after a phone call with someone at Rigol this morning I'm reconsidering the 4000A series. Mostly because they confirmed my fears that the implementation of capture/playback on the 1000Z series is very limited, and that there's no magic special secret-moose-handshake four channel version in the 2000A series. If you want to capture four analog channels with a usable human interface, you're pretty much stuck with the 4000A....which, at that price, makes the KeySight 2000 series very competitive. You can get a 200MHz four channel DSOX2000 for basically the same money, AND they are tossing in all the options for free. I'm waiting for a call back from Rigol, we'll see what they can do, but that's some serious competition.

author: atx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 10:23:17 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on September 08, 2015, 06:12:47 amI do not believe that there is a difference between analog and digital decoding. Would need to verify this. Also the Rigol's statement that decoding only works with what is on the screen is kind of confusing. For example, when decoding a 8MHz SPI signal using 1GHZ sampling and maximum memory, you can scroll through the data and everything is honky dory even though you only see a tiny bit on the screen. In this setting the entire memory is decoded correctly. But from a measurement point of view that is a total waste of memory. You would scale down to something like 25Mhz or 50MHz to be on the safe side. The Rigol has a weird sampling rate control. you have to use the horizontal scale knob to change the sampling rate and not every turn changes it. No direct control of the sampling rate is possible. The next rate down is 250MSa/s, then 25MSa/s with both analog channels off and maximum memory (28Mpts). Here the decoding fails already at 250 MSa.With a smaller memory let's say 7Mpts, you get different sampling options. Now you can sample at 1GSa, 500MSa, 125MSa, 25MSa, etc. Decoding starts failing at 25MSa. As you can see this gets rather complicated as it includes a variety of parameters. Then, there are uncontrollable freezes in these operating modes which are annoying and render the device useless for up to a minute...It will eventually recover (the processor is probably overloaded)The statement that users are less happy with the LA section seems to be correct. At least it is true for me. Many functions like the horizontal scale implementation in the analog section are fine but then the same implementation has been used on the digital LA side where it doesn't make a lot of sense IMHO.atx

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 10:41:25 pm
content: QuoteYep, and please let us know which settings work/fail so we can replicate on the DS.QuoteYes, but it makes sense to me when taken literally - nothing is decoded unless it's on the screen.The triggering options on the various protocols are pretty good, so combined with the segmentation its fine.QuoteI don't recall seeing anything like this on the DS. If you can work out the details I'll try and replicate when I get home.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 10:41:59 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on September 08, 2015, 09:06:24 pmWhile it's really nice to be able to trigger an analog channel on your scope on a decode value, I have to agree, Saeleae software is really well done.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 02:19:33 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on September 08, 2015, 10:41:59 pmAny chance those LA's can emit a trigger when they match a pattern? Plug that into your scope's external trigger input, and you'd have the best of both worlds.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 02:23:59 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on September 08, 2015, 10:08:47 pmA friend who works for KeySight called this afternoon, leaning on me HARD to go with the DSOX2024. He spelled it out: For about $2700, you get 4A @ 200MHz, plus they're enabling every option so you get all the serial decodes. Those options also include a function generator and onscreen DMM, features that the Rigol 4000A series doesn't even offer. (Rigol's integrated function generators stop at the 2000A series.)KeySight or Rigol.Rigol or KeySight.Nice problem to have, but I can make an argument both ways.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 02:49:59 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on September 09, 2015, 02:23:59 amI do love my DS4014, but that is aton of stuffwith the KeySight, hard to turn down those extras. Good luck with your decision.

author: atx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 05:15:36 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on September 08, 2015, 10:41:25 pmDecoding remains a mystery. In the example attached I use a 16 bit data word that is incremented each frame defined by CS and a 8MHz clock signal. I connected the analog channels to SCK and SDA. The digital channels use the SCK, SDA and CS signals. I use the first decoding on the digital channels (with CS) and the second decoding on the analog (with timeout). I triggered on the digital channels with SDA=0x0. At a sample rate of 200MSa (analog) or higher everything works fine. When switching down to 100MSa both decoders fail but differently as you can see.QuoteNot really as you can scroll through the table without changing the screen at all. The table shows you all decoded values independent from what is on the screen. Also, I posted scenarios where the data is clearly shown on the screen and decoding failed. I think it is more a memory dependency. Once the memory gets too large, decoding fails. I had a theory that it works under any circumstances when the memory is set to AUTO. But that is not true either. Once you reach a certain memory size the decoding may fail.QuoteI should have said spontaneous freezes. I cannot reproduce those. But they appear when a large memory is involved. Sometimes more sometimes not at all. I need to further investigate this.Bottom line is that decoding is highly unreliable and thus more or less useless because you have to always verify it first. Thus, paying for this option is not recommended IMHO.atx

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 06:14:37 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on September 09, 2015, 02:19:33 amSaleae doesn't have that option, and it would be difficult. Because you set the capture duration, and a non decoded trigger condition (usually just the logic level like a rising edge), the capture takes place and the client app does the decoding. So a real time ext. trigger out would not be real time.This is my experience with the lower end 8 channel and 16 channel Saleae LA's. Not sure if the higher end ones are any different, but I would imagine not since the decoding is done in the computer at the application level, after the capture has taken place.This approach has advantages, things like more advanced decoding possible and virtually unlimited memory, but external trigger out would not be possible.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 03:20:10 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on September 09, 2015, 06:14:37 amYep, the LA hardware would have to directly handle the trigger detection. But if you did that, you could emit a trigger signal and still let decoding happen on the host machine. That would be rather nice in quite a few situations I can imagine.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 08:09:17 pm
content: Wow, it's been a wild morning of trying to buy an oscilloscope. Get this:I worked out a deal for a Rigol DS4024A. I know, I know... I reasoned the 4000A series was too expensive for our needs, etc. etc. I won't bore you with the details but in the end this was the sweet spot in the compromise curve. I literally had the company credit card out, reaching for the phone.......and my buddy who works for Keysight calls and says "You bought that scope yet?" I had talked with him yesterday about the possibility of any discounts, brother-in-law "deals", and the like. They used to have such things, but after Agilent split away from HP they all went away and he reported nothing new on that horizon, so I dismissed any shot at a reasonably priced Keysight that could come anywhere close to the Rigol 4000A series.But it apparently really bugged him that we were considering "leaving the family". So he shook the trees in his organization and they are now working on a deal to basically match our price for a Rigol 4024A with a DSOX3024T. Same bandwidth, same channel count, including all the enable options, etc. On a THREE thousand series scope, not the DSOX2000 series we had been considering. I don't care about the touchscreen - would rather not have it, actually - but it's the latest product and costs the same as the old A series and comes with a few more things standard.Sheesh. It's a nightmare of wonderfulness. Rigol is really extending their hand here, I can't share the details but they really made an effort and I basically swore a blood oath that we'd take the deal. But then my almost-family buddy of 35 years, whose now-grown kids have called me Uncle since they were born, who has worked for HP and then Agilent and now Keysight the entire time, is also swinging the bat hard to arrange a killer deal on an awesome scope.And then the products. I can argue for and against both. Keysight wins on support. But Rigol wins on many important technical specs. The 3000T series is relatively new so should get support for a good long time, while the 4000A series has been around a while so maybe it's nearing end of life. But then the 4000A series probably has most of its bugs worked out already, while the newness of the 3000T risks making us a beta site for new firmware.The 3000T has 4Msamples of memory that can be divided into (IIRC) 1000 segments. The 4000A has 140Msamples that can be divided into 200K segments. Clear winner: Rigol. But the Keysight does a whole bunch of stuff in hardware that the Rigol handles in code, making things slower. Advantage: Keysight. Rigol has true hardware resolution down to 1mV/div, while Keysight only goes to a real 4mV/div and just optically multiplies from there. And so it goes.Socially, I'm going to look like a jerk to someone. Technically, we gain some features with one, and some features with the other.I know we have owners of both here. Opinions? Help a guy out. At the same price, which would you take?

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 08:28:55 pm
content: Unless you really need the memory depth, get the Agilent, hands down I'd say.I've got a MSO4000, and although it's much better today, Rigol support totally blows, it's taken a long time to get the firmware straightened out.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 08:42:08 pm
content: Given that choice I would go with DSOX3024T for sureNever used one though, but it just sounds like a fantastic offer to get a modern brand name scope and all of the options.Perhaps someone who has used both recently can comment.If only they would offer that bundle to everyone, then there might be some competition

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 09:32:05 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on September 09, 2015, 08:28:55 pmYeah, that's the struggle I'm having too. The memory difference is just HUGE. I can always wait for Rigol's software to slowly do what the Keysight hardware does faster, but I can't smash more memory into the box. 35x or 70x the depth (depending on which spec sheet you read) is a LOT.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 09:48:05 pm
content: Makes sure and review this thread before making your final decision:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 10:05:27 pm
content: Yep, I've read that one (and many others) all the way through.Lots of data out there. But some is poorly correlated, as with earlier in this thread where folks claimed a bug still existed when others here had documented its fix over a year ago.Also, I wonder if Rigol has more bugs - or if those of Agilent/Keysight are just less documented. With Rigols being so much more affordable, it might be that they just get more exposure with the homebrew crowd who are perhaps more likely to post their findings. Not sure. But the lack of postings isn't proof of lack of bugs. Definitely Keysight gets the nod for "more likely to respond and fix a bug".But the primary reason for needing this new scope - at least for now - is as an analog data capture system. Hence why memory looms so large as a consideration.Just got a text that the Keysight people are having a meeting right now to discuss options. We'll see.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 10:10:07 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on September 09, 2015, 10:05:27 pmCan you explain this a bit further? Are you sure a scope is the right instrument?Although I've not used the bundled Rigol software, it's really poor IIRC, that is if you hoping to incorporate a PC as well.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 10:17:00 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on September 09, 2015, 10:10:07 pmWe need a good digital storage scope anyway. But what's driving the purchase right now is a project where we have multiple analog signals that we need to sample, store, and correlate. It's a closed loop positioning system and we need to understand the real-time relationships between motor winding voltage, motor winding current, sensor feedback, etc. A DAQ system won't cut it because these are analog, not digital.And then, we'll have a good DSO around with plenty of bandwidth and depth to do almost everything we need. We don't get above 100MHz too often, so 200MHz should give us good fidelity in our bandwidths of interest.Essentially, we've needed a new scope for a while but held of until now.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 11:03:55 pm
content: Update: Pulled the trigger on the Rigol DS4024A. My Keysight friend got back to me and said their deal will take a while to make happen. Rigol offers a 30 day return policy if you don't like the scope, so we're going to give the DS4024A a shot while the Keysight deal grinds along. If it doesn't happen, then we've got the Rigol. If it does come together and the Rigol isn't the right product, we have the option for the 3024T. Best of both worlds.Should have a new DS4024A in our hands early next week. Christmas in September!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 11:05:51 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on September 09, 2015, 11:03:55 pmPlease keep us updated on your experiences.

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 10:20:34 am
content: QuoteNow that's one of the most balanced and thought through replies I've read in any of these "cheap chinese" vs "big brand" threads in a very long time. You are most likely right about Keysight being "better" at fixing bugs. I've been frustrated for sure and I thought I was being left in the dark with the DS4000 but I've changed my mind a bit. They are fixing things but it does take time. As for general support it's, in my experience, a bit of hit and miss kind of thing. It depends on who you get at the other end.Keep us posted!

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 01:56:01 pm
content: Quote from: H.O on September 10, 2015, 10:20:34 amSo far, the people with whom I've spoken at Rigol have been top-notch. Granted I'm talking with the sales and support folks and not the guys correcting the firmware bugs, but no complaints so far... in fact, I'd praise the responses I've gotten from two different people at Rigol.I asked about bug fixes as part of my discussion with them, and the feedback I got was that (at least for the 4000A series) they see 1-2 firmware updates a year. So while I didn't get the impression there was any sort of actual schedule for updates, neither did it sound like this series is starving for attention. I've worked for equipment companies and it's really a big prioritization game. There's pressure to finish the next New Product, which competes with pressure to support existing products that are shipping and actually paying the bills, etc.I bet the squeaky wheel metaphor applies. Maybe what the Rigol owner community should do is coordinate our attacks.When someone encounters a bug and it's confirmed by others, EVERYONE who owns that model/series should separately contact Rigol and apply pressure. Have to spread it out over a period of time so their eyes don't just glaze over. But properly done, that might raise the priority back in Bejing.Is there a Rigol community website somewhere? If not, perhaps we should create one rather than ride on Dave's coattails (and dilute the focus).

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 02:07:25 pm
content: I would agree with the 1-2 updates per year, no known Rigol forum, and they do not monitor here.Rigol has been very well informed on the 4000 series bugs, in fact i've been told many times it's the first time they've heard of them, ha ha.I've had the same experience, sales is pretty good, support is worse than a dick in the ass.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 02:51:38 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on September 10, 2015, 02:07:25 pmThe guy I talked to originally was an Applications Engineer for them. My "sales" call got routed there but he handled my questions just fine, since they were much more technical than what most people would consider sales questions.He made one comment I really liked: "It's our job to earn your business." And he invited me to call anytime with questions before or after a sale. He specifically said "Even if you don't by Rigol this time around". Granted they're just words at the moment, and time will tell how well they back them up, but so far at least I'm impressed enough to step away from our usual default Keysight purchase and give Rigol a shot.I wonder if there would be interest in a Rigol-dedicated forum. I could set that up, but it's only worth it if there would be enough participants.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 03:00:42 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on September 10, 2015, 02:51:38 pmI got the same nice experience and technical information when purchasing my DS4014. Also, my contacts with their support were always good. As H.O said, it may depend on who you get at the other end.Quote from: IDEngineer on September 10, 2015, 02:51:38 pm+1.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 05:17:37 pm
content: When I say support, I mean I've got a reproducible firmware bug, here are the exact steps etc. You can report these, they sales guy will gladly listen, but past that they get lost.What I want to see, let's use Elecraft as an example. I reported a bug, theowneremailed me directly, said I've reproduced it, it will be fixed in the next rev, which was like a week later.Now I know Rigol is a much bigger company, but all questions/bugs/etc need at least acknowledged, given a ticket number or something.

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 06:08:44 pm
content: QuoteI can elaborate a bit on my personal experience. I was in contact with the US branch regarding the issues with decoders (now fixed). At first it felt he was all over the issue and promised to set up a test on his bench to replicate the problem, scheduled test "next week" - then nothing. Two months later I asked but he hadn't been able to "get around to it yet" but suspected that "there might still be some bugs" with the decoder.....Quite a while later I tried to reach him for an update, no response what so ever. After a couple of fruitless tries I gave up with the US office and emailed the office in Germany* and they told me there "had been some changes" at the US office and the guy I was talking to was no longer working there. They could at least have set an auto-reply on his email account.* Which I should have done in the first place since I'm in the EU but I apparently used the contact form on the "wrong" Rigol website and got routed to the US office.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2015, 12:07:13 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on September 10, 2015, 05:17:37 pmSo you're a ham? All three of my family members are, one Extra and two Generals including my 13YO son who got his Tech license at 6YO and his General at 7YO.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 11, 2015, 12:23:27 am
content: Not to many companies could maintain the standards set by Elecraft. hmmm, I think there should be a ham radio sub forum around here.PS, I'd have gone for the Agilent, but am looking forward to hearing how the Rigol does - the extended memory may prove to be a real bonus.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2015, 12:36:39 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on September 11, 2015, 12:07:13 amRigol would be an entirely different story if they'd just dedicate a bit more time on the firmware side.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2015, 08:53:19 pm
content: Quick update: Scope has arrived, overnight from Oregon! Pulled it out, powered it up, and checked a few things. Now letting it burn in for a while.Decoder bundle code is supposed to ship next week. In the meantime the demos have nearly 4000 hours (!!!) remaining.Very first impressions:* Fan noise is definitely there, but not what I'd call objectionable. I prefer to work in silence but this is only slightly more than a typical tower PC. It's also a mild, modest air sound as opposed to some fans that have a definite "whir" or "buzz" or similar. So while it's not silent, I consider it acceptable.* Screen has a reasonable brightness. I have found how to change the brightness of the traces and the grid, but not the overall brightness (that would affect menus, markers, navigation, etc.). Screen visibility angle is definitely limited, as noted in Dave's video review. Your line of sight really does want to be looking down, from above the screen's horizontal. If it's on a bench it will be fine, but might suffer if mounted on a shelf above eye level.* Unit comes with a very nice front panel cover. That isn't emphasized much, I only found a brief reference to it in the manual I was reading while awaiting the scope's arrival. I still plan to get a carrying case for it, but even in the case I'll be happier knowing the front panel is protected.* So far the traditional V+H controls are relatively intuitive. Will need some time to make the rest of it second nature, but that's true of all digital instruments these days. (Remember when you could walk up to virtually any analog scope and immediately know how to do almost anything?)More soon. So far, so good!

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2015, 01:09:09 am
content: After a few hours, functionally all continues to be well. Real signal-based testing will probably have to wait until tomorrow.However, during the burn-in, the 4024A has gotten just a bit noisier. The main fan is still just a breath of air, but now there's an additional slight "ticking" sound that reminds me of a CPU fan. I wonder if there's a second internal fan mounted to a heat sink.I powered it down, let it cool for a couple of hours, and then restarted it to see if this possible internal fan is thermally switched and would be silent again for a while. No luck - the sound appears to be permanent now. Again, it's not awful, but since there's been something of a ruckus about fan noise level on these units I'm paying close attention. Interesting that the noise wasn't there at first, but now appears permanent.I listened carefully, thinking it might be a label that's come loose internally and ticking the main fan's blades or fluttering around in its airstream (I've seen that in the past). But it definitely doesn't sound like that. It sounds like a heat-sink-mounted CPU fan at low RPM's.More details as I learn them.EDIT: Couldn't stand it, had to know if it was a secondary fan. So I powered up the unit with the main fan stalled out for a few seconds. Result: The unit is absolutely dead silent. Booted fine, so there's no fan sensor that holds off until the fan can spin up. This means the little ticking sound is associated with the main (and I believe only) fan. There's also now a low frequency tone, sounds like about 120 Hz. Itmighthave been there before, but I really don't think so. Sitting across the room from it, all I hear is the slight air noise; the tone/buzz is the dominant sound when you're sitting right in front of it.So I guess the biggest value of the early burn-in is to get the fan settled into whatever will be its normal operating mode!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2015, 03:22:50 am
content: IDEngineer, there is no secondary fan according to Connor Wolf's DS4014 teardown:https://youtu.be/_J1pVlqMIHM

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2015, 11:38:40 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on September 12, 2015, 01:09:09 amYeah, there is only one fan, constant speed, no RPM feedback. There is also an onboard temp sensor, in the system menu somewhere, informational only I presume.The (4) ADCs get pretty warm, I added heatsinks to mine and swapped the fan for a much quieter Noctua unit.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2015, 04:46:50 pm
content: Yep, I watched that teardown video while considering this purchase. However, based on some of the internal heat studies I wondered if they might have added one or more internal fans, especially on the A/D's. I would like to add A/D heat sinks and/or fans, as well as replace the main fan, but I don't want to crack the case and void the warranty on a scope that is only two days old!

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2015, 05:54:34 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on September 12, 2015, 04:46:50 pmNope, even the newer-ish MSOs still have a single fan, no ADC heatsinks.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2015, 08:02:58 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on September 12, 2015, 04:46:50 pmYou should have bought one from their clearance center then, as they have only 90 days of warranty!

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 03:56:59 am
content: Quick comment: Gotta say the jog-shuttle knobs on the front panel are AWESOME.I'm familiar with this type of user control from video editing and can't imagine trying to scroll through thousands of memory segments by forever spinning a regular knob.You know why an Agilent/Keysight doesn't have this? Because their number of segments is so small, they don't need it!

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 10:43:32 am
content: Make sure you're running the latest firmware:http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htmAnd for quick screenshots via PC this utility is pretty handy:peter.dreisiebner.at

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 01:58:49 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on September 13, 2015, 10:43:32 amGood idea, I presumed it would be the latest since it came straight from Rigol NA's own stock but you never know. Where in the menu system does it display the current version's rev number?

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 02:51:18 pm
content: That would be  ->  -> [System Info].There's also a certain key combination which makes it display a more detailed system info but I don't remember it right now.

author: commongrounder
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 03:08:53 pm
content: Go to Trigger menu, and set edge trigger. While keeping trigger menu open, use sixth and seventh right hand menu buttons as follows: Press  in that order quickly. You should see additional system details under the SYSTEM>SYSTEM INFO menu item. You may have to try this more than once to get it to work. The buttons need to be pushed without hesitation. Good Luck!

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 03:14:23 pm
content: Quote from: H.O on September 13, 2015, 02:51:18 pmExcellent, thank you. That also gave me an opportunity to test screen capture and the front USB connector:Not sure how .SP3 relates to the version mentioned in the earlier link. I'll drop Rigol an email and ask.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 03:24:07 pm
content: Quote from: commongrounder on September 13, 2015, 03:08:53 pmTried multiple times with varying timing, etc. Did not work. Always just switched to the Utility menu. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

author: commongrounder
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 03:29:27 pm
content: Huh. That is odd. Works fine on my ds4000 scope...

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 03:51:35 pm
content: Quote from: commongrounder on September 13, 2015, 03:29:27 pmMight just be me, my timing, etc. Who knows. Can you post a screenshot of what yours shows when you display it?

author: commongrounder
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 06:59:42 pm
content: Here you go. Are you counting the button labeled "menu" as one of the seven? The menu buttons you actually push are the bottom two that line up with a screen label. Just checking, because it should work for you. My scope has the most recent firmware (within the last couple of weeks) There is a bug with the help menu, but I never use it, so it doesn't bother me. Some think the counter overlay is too big now.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 07:12:20 pm
content: Nope, not counting the Menu button. There are seven grey unlabeled "soft" buttons to the right of the screen, between the labeled Menu and dual arrow buttons. I'm trying the bottom two buttons. No luck so far, but I'll try again and report back.LATER: Ahh... looking at your screen shot and then re-reading your instructions with that in mind, I didn't realize that after you enter the magic sequence you must then display the info using the normal keystrokes. I thought the data was supposed to pop up when you pressed Utility. My mistake.Here is what I get now:...which implies I'm a bit behind the 00.02.02.04.03 firmware. It also looks like the FPGA gets updated when you bump the firmware, since your CCU value is higher than my more recent scope.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 07:23:21 pm
content: Is it my impression or the Self Test Info button shows additional info as well?

author: commongrounder
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 07:41:54 pm
content: rsjsouzaThat's interesting. I think you are right. The scope stays in this enhanced info mode until you do a power cycle, so I'll have to compare the next time, unless someone else reports back first.IDEngineerCongrats on achieving the magic screen! I think someone posted the latest firmware here, but RIGOLNA responds automatically with the firmware if you fill out the request form on their web site.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2015, 02:55:26 am
content: Quote from: commongrounder on September 13, 2015, 07:41:54 pmHah, it does show additional info. Just captured a screenshot after a power cycle.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2015, 12:59:24 pm
content: So apparently the magic sequence sets a flag somewhere, and it's referenced by multiple display functions. Great to know! That's the kind of wisdom that sites like this make available. Thanks!

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2015, 07:36:22 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 13, 2015, 07:23:21 pmNice find.FWIW My temp is quite a bit lower: 32 degC

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2015, 03:13:57 pm
content: Quick question: I can't find where I can set the pretrigger percentage. It appears that the default is the standard "50%", i.e. when the trigger occurs the trigger event is halfway through memory, 50% of the memory contains the events leading up to the trigger, and 50% contains the events occurring after the trigger.DSO's generally allow you to adjust that threshold. For example, the specific problem I'm working on right now doesn't care about pretrigger data. Nothing that happens before the trigger is important. But it would be VERY helpful to use all available memory to store data AFTER the trigger, because the events in question can take 5-10 seconds to complete. So I would like to set the pretrigger threshold to 0%, thus dedicating all available sample memory to posttrigger information.I haven't been able to find how to do that in the manual. Anyone know where this is hiding? Thanks!

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2015, 06:38:06 pm
content: Got an answer from Rigol's tech support, and it's better than I expected.The past scopes I've used this way have you set the pre/post trigger threshold as a percentage in the menu system. The trigger position marker at the top of the screen is used AFTER memory has been filled, to show where you are viewing. Rigol uses that marker to also set the pre/post trigger relationship - just dial in where you want the trigger to be in memory, take your sample, and that's what you get. Then you can move the trigger around like usual while examining the results.Moving the trigger marker all the way left, for example, gives you 100% post-trigger data (my original goal). Moving it all the way to the right gives you 100% pre-trigger data. And so forth. Very handy and user friendly, requiring no menus at all.Nicely done, Rigol!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 08:41:26 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on September 15, 2015, 06:38:06 pmIt's not that special. This is how it works for other DSOs, and has been for a really long time, so all Rigol did was copying the functionality.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 09:07:18 am
content: Do other scopes allow the trigger to be anchored (e.g. to the left or right edge of the screen) when changing timebase?It a pain to keep adjusting the trigger position all the time.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 09:20:59 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on September 16, 2015, 09:07:18 amSee post:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-msosds2000-series/msg755152/#msg755152

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 09:27:56 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 16, 2015, 09:20:59 amSorry I'm not seeing anything related there, are you saying that the new SDS2k firmware support this

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 09:38:41 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on September 16, 2015, 09:07:18 amStraight from the MSO/DS2000A User's Guide:Horizontal ReferenceHorizontal reference is the reference position according to which the screenwaveform is expanded or compressed horizontally when adjusting HORIZONTALSCALE. In Y-T mode and the delayed sweep is disabled, press MENU HorRefin the horizontal control area (HORIZONTAL) at the front panel to select the desiredreference mode and the default is "Center".Note: This function is not available in X-Y mode and Roll mode as well as in Y-T modewhen the delayed sweep is enabled.1.CenterWhen changing the horizontal time base, the waveform is expanded orcompressed horizontally around the center of the screen.2.Trig PosWhen changing the horizontal time base, the waveform is expanded orcompressed horizontally around the trigger point.3.UserWhen changing the horizontal time base, the waveform is expanded orcompressed horizontally around the user-defined reference position.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 09:48:37 am
content: Quote from: Karel on September 16, 2015, 09:38:41 amBrilliant, thanks! I just checked and the DS4k works the same

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 12:34:32 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on September 16, 2015, 08:41:26 amHmm... not sure what other scope I was using that didn't do it this way, but glad it works this way on the Rigol.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 05:01:30 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on September 16, 2015, 09:07:18 amNo, and it wouldn't make sense. The trigger can't be "anchored" to the screen, the trigger is already "anchored" to the trigger event. The trigger line then allows you to change the position of the display window on the time line relative to the trigger point. On most scopes the reference of the display window is in the middle (i.e. with a trigger line set at+0us (zero) the trigger event will be in the middle of the screen).By changing the timebase you're changing the time interval per graticule unit, which also means you'll also change the distance of the trigger line to the display window reference if the trigger line is set to anything else than zero.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 08:04:09 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on September 16, 2015, 05:01:30 pmThe way I was thinking about it was;The trigger position is by default a time delta relative to the reference position in the centre of the screen.Because the units are time, changing the timebase changes the position of the trigger.However if the units of the delta could be change to screen pixels then changing the timebase would not change the trigger position.Of course this is now moot, given that the reference position is moveable as Karel explained.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 12:15:06 am
content: Got the bundle unlock code today. Went to Rigol's (China) website, entered the data, got the resulting .LIC file, put it on a USB stick, stuck it in the scope, answered "YES", and bam - all options "Official" and "Never Expires"! Couldn't have been easier unless they sent someone here to feed me peeled grapes while they installed it for me.