A genius just died - why wasn't he famous? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 09:24:45 am
content: http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/games/ralph-baer-the-man-you-never-heard-of-who-changed-technology-forever-20141212-125kd9.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_H._BaerThis world sometimes is quite fickle. Ralph was a genius but few people have heard of him.artists like Justin Beiber, Kim Kardashian and that birdbrain Hilton are far more famous and wealthy than brilliant inventors like Ralph Baer. I would hope people like Ralph are long remembered when theartists are long forgotten.Electronics engineers and technicians as a group should be heralded as the greatest contributors to the betterment of mankind in the last 2,000 years, alongside medical researchers. Instead they are barely recognised. In Australia, the average drongo has no clue what an electronics engineer is.

author: justanothercanuck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 11:34:53 am
content: A lot of people consider Baer to be the "father of video games", although the Magnavox Oddysey was pretty crappy. Nolan Bushnell and Atari better fit the title, in my opinion.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 11:45:03 am
content: QuoteAhead of those who ignited the agriculture and industrial revolution? probably not.As to the Baer guy, does he want to be famous? should he be famous? is his contribution to society that significant? None established in my view.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 11:49:34 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on December 12, 2014, 09:24:45 amTake a number.Replace the words "electronic engineer" with almost any other field and there will be a bunch of people crying for exactly the same thing. And they would have very good arguments for being heralded above engineers.I'm with you of course, but there are countless people in many fields who deserve public recognition.I wish for the return of the age where theoretical physicsts and scientists where heralded as the most famous people in the world. Such a world did exist once.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 11:50:22 am
content: There are a number of very well known figures from the history of video games. Some because they were self promoters. Some because a company pushed their names into the public eye. Have you considered that Baer might have enjoyed his anonymity?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 12:13:25 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 12, 2014, 11:50:22 amTo the general public, I greatly doubt it.I think you'd be hard pressed to name one that Joe Public knows.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 12:54:48 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 12, 2014, 12:13:25 pmSteve Jobs.The iPhone basically made casual gaming cool. Collectively, the iDevices outsell Nintendo 100:1, more if you count Android.Sent from my Tablet

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 01:18:05 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 12, 2014, 12:54:48 pmI knew someone would say Jobs (or Woz). But Jobs is not known for gaming. Joe public would not know that we worked on Atari games, all they know is he founded Apple computers, a personal computer company, not a gaming company.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 01:27:14 pm
content: Yes, but he's now connected to gaming due to the success of the iDevices in Joe Public's mind. Bill Gates would be another contender, because a good number of people think he invented the home computer (and later the Xbox, etc.) so it doesn't have to be factually correct for the public to think it.A good example to my point is that a lot of people think Apple is responsible for every app and game in the App Store.By the way, they changed their name from Apple Computers to just Apple several years ago. They make hardware, software and publishing channels for content.So that's why gaming would be associated with Jobs and Gates by J. Q. Pubic.Sent from my Tablet

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 01:36:12 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 12, 2014, 01:27:14 pmI think if you want out and did a poll of Joe Public you'd find that wasn't the case.If you asked what Jobs is famous for it would be "computer", iPhone, iPad, iPod, or some such hardware. My guess is very few would says anything to do with "games".Same for Bill Gates.In any case, even if they didn't they would be factually wrong, because they aren't the least bit famous for anything to do with games.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 01:50:30 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 12, 2014, 12:13:25 pmI was thinking of names known to gamers. Baer isn't even known to most gamers.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 01:52:28 pm
content: My point is that the iDevices (and then Android) brought portable gaming to non-gamers. It may not be true for yourself, but a lot of people who otherwise would have never played a video game are now doing so because of smartphones. Thusly, they associate gaming with their iPad and their iPad with Steve Jobs.I've literally heard the words "Steve Jobs turned me into a gamer" from numerous people, including a 92 year old great-great-grandmother of someone living nearby. It's a case of people associating a person with a large company or shift in technology. I heard the same thing in reference to Bill Gates in the 90's.Casual gaming is now a multi-billion dollar industry, due pretty much to how easy Apple (and subsequently Google) made it to purchase apps (and more importantly the monetization of free apps via IAP) from a single, secure provider. Apple isn't a gaming company just like they're not a music company.Sent from my Tablet

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 02:17:19 pm
content: I think the assumption that engineers want lots of attention and fame is wrong. It makes perfect sense to me that they aren't known -- they don't want to be known. Believe me, if an engineer wants to be known, they'll do things to increase their surface area in popular culture.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 02:32:35 pm
content: "Fame" or even "awareness" of someone or something is largely dependent on what people in the "news" and "publicity" games choose to (or are paid to) tell us about. My level of satisfaction with the mainstream press (of all types) asymptotically approaches zero. At least the interweb allows us some ability to search out information for ourselves unfiltered by the opinion of the "news professionals".

author: Kevman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 03:17:09 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 12, 2014, 12:54:48 pmThat's an extremely tough sell unless you are one of those Jobs lovers.Remember, when the iPhone came out Steve Jobs really didn't want native apps for the thing and web apps were too slow for even casual gaming. It was the jailbreakers that really made gaming on the iPhone possible, Apple only added native app support later. Of course everyone forgets that. And not one person on the planet will bring up Video games when you mention Jobs, only the other way round will ever ever happen. And even then very rarely.Not that he ever did anything to promote video gaming, either.Many people know Will Wright and Miyamoto. Of course, if you don't play video games, why would you know any of those names? I've found most people have never heard of Itzhak Perlman, either.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 03:26:28 pm
content: QuoteMy example of "famous people no one knows" is Robert Bugbee.Now, beat that,

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 04:54:11 pm
content: For a long time, Nolan Bushnell was popularly given credit for inventing video games (Computer Spacewas released before theOdyssey, and no-one knew about the existence of the "brown box" prototype). It wasn't until maybe ten years ago that Baer received more wide-spread recognition.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 05:29:54 pm
content: Why do you call Baer a genius? Did he do more than have an idea and patent it? Did he actually design anything?

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 06:13:22 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on December 12, 2014, 05:29:54 pmSigh.Yes.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2014, 09:08:53 pm
content: Quote from: Kevman on December 12, 2014, 03:17:09 pmI don't know any of those three.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2014, 01:07:44 am
content: Quote from: edavid on December 12, 2014, 05:29:54 pmHe designed the first "pong" game (without a score). It is in the Smithsonian Institute. Along with one of the the very first wooden Apples, an example of the first IC and the first germanium transistor.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2014, 02:49:57 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on December 12, 2014, 02:32:35 pmAgreed. The web is exposing truth that the mainstream press and governments cannot hide, like. Alternative information services also help expose activities by rogue organisations such as the CIA.There are some decent mainstream news services though... BBC World Service, Deutche Welle, Al-Jazeera and the ABC News (Australia) to name a few. In comparison to totalitarian states like North Korea and Peoples Republic of China, we in the west have it easy.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2014, 06:51:49 am
content: QuoteHere's an interesting thought to go along with that."History", as it is usually taught, is mostly about politics, governments, and war.I think you could probably make up an equally valid "history" centered on technology instead. Tech occasionally gets a mention: cotton gins and interchangeable parts, for example. But you could make it central: "in the late 15th century, the state of shipbuilding and navigation permitted the discovery of the new world, and a technology race between competing nations to perform ever more dare feats of exploration." The history might be a bit distorted, but that mostly makes me think that the history we're taught is ALSO distorted. Not only that, but you could probably pick particular sub-fields. (one interesting treatment ishttp://www.cavemanchemistry.com- the history of the world by major developments in chemistry. Starting with fire.)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2014, 09:44:14 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on December 13, 2014, 01:07:44 amThere was no such thing a wooden apple 1.People make that mistake thinking there was because someone's personal hand hack wooden case version made it into the Smithsonian.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2014, 10:39:25 am
content: QuoteThis very thread would suggest otherwise.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2014, 11:03:27 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on December 12, 2014, 09:24:45 amI want a browser plugin where every article/publicity/quote/picture about Justin/Kim/SteveJobs/Paris is automatically replaced by something about Dennis Richie or others who really realised something technical.

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2014, 02:43:42 pm
content: "Stop liking things I don't like!"

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2014, 05:09:36 pm
content: Quote from: andersm on December 13, 2014, 02:43:42 pmThere, I fixed it for you.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2014, 08:13:34 pm
content: QuoteMarketing has always been important for any commercial enterprises. That's why most companies are run by marketing types.Apple is no exception, and rightfully so - for most corporations, technology has little to do with their successes. Apple is simply an exclamation point on that statement.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2014, 11:22:46 am
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on December 13, 2014, 07:54:52 pmAs did kim, richard branson, madonna and others. God for you that you like thos salesman. I don't.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2014, 10:31:28 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on December 12, 2014, 02:17:19 pmThis. The personality type that follows this is one of keeping to ourselves.

author: Tandy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2014, 11:51:10 pm
content: Sadly the world is upside down, sports personalities and entertainers get well paid where as many brilliant scientists struggle to get funding. Imagine how much the world would have advanced if the general public took more interest in people developing new things instead of who some TV presenter is seen going out with this week.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2014, 01:10:46 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on December 12, 2014, 02:32:35 pmAgreed, about the mainstream press. It's Sturgeon's Law in action - 90% of everything is crud. And it goes for people too. Since 90% of people get most of their world awareness from the mainstream press, they too are 90% crud. So who cares what they think?It seems to me that Engineers are more aware of Sturgeon's Law than most, and that goes a long way to explaining why most engineers have no interest in fame. Because they know a system that swoons over Miley Cyrus, isn't worth bothering with.Anyway, RIP Ralph Baer. I hadn't heard of him till now either. Glad I finally learned where that all began.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2014, 07:14:33 am
content: Why aren't more engineers famous?? or rich?? or both??This is a question EVERY engineer should ask himself. The answer could literally change your career path and save you from a life of the cubicle dwellers. Assuming that is what you are looking for.First to address the OP's question about why wasn't Ralph H. Baer famous.The answer is simple. Relatively speaking, HE IS PRETTY DAMN FAMOUS! For an admittedly superficial but still relevant example, the dude has his own frikkin wikipedia page and a pretty extensive one! Years and years from now people will be able to do a little research and read this history that this guy helped write with his engineering contributions. That is being famous. Are you really surprised the general public doesn't know who designed something? There are WAY WAY more universally used things in life who's designers were never known by anyone. This is a really odd example of an engineer not being famous. You could have just started listing off good products who we really don't know who made them. Then your point would have been totally valid. The fact of the matter is that, Ralph Baer and a hand full of others excluded, the other 99.9% of engineers fall into obscurity despite the fact they are the ones that make the world work.The real reasons most engineers aren't famous, in no particular order.*) Engineers don't understand the value they bring to a company and are willing to let people treat them like crap. Every time I hear someone say Steve Jobs was a genius for realizing he could berate engineers to make them work harder I want to punch someone in the face.*) Engineers are terrible communicators, so even if they do understand the value they bring, they do a terrible job of explaining it to anyone else.*) You will never be famous for hanging back in the shadows, doing your one little part of some job, and moving on. You have to be involved in the whole process even the parts that aren't fun or you aren't good at. This isn't something many engineers are willing to do.*) In addition to being a good engineer, you have to be a good sales man. A really good sales man. Countless products fail because some engineer didn't know how to sell them. The guys that become famous are the guys that had successful products, and successful products while based in engineering are a result of sales and marketing.Most engineers, even really brilliant ones, are content doing their little part as long as it keeps them busy and brings in a pay check. There is nothing wrong with that. Those guys make the world work. But they shouldn't expect to get famous and we shouldn't be shocked when they don't.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2014, 09:16:39 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 12, 2014, 01:18:05 pmJobs was the first scammer in the gaming industry, when he lied to Woz about the money Atari paid for that urgent work.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2015, 11:34:39 am
content: Quote from: Galenbo on December 13, 2014, 11:03:27 amThank you very much for developing part 1 of what I wanted !!!#KardBlockhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3069273/Can-t-away-Kardashians-Browser-extension-lets-block-mentions-Kimye-online.html

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2015, 08:02:58 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on December 13, 2014, 08:13:34 pmI don't think technology or engineering can be evaluated without placing it in a larger social/cultural/political/economic context. Technology that exists purely for its own sake is really either basic science, a failed art project, or a business failure.Further more, technology isn't just a component, or a device, or even anything tangible. It can be a way of doing things. Money is technology. Double-entry book keeping is technology. Modern supply chain design and management is technology. "Marketing," in its many forms, is a technology.From this perspective, I think that technology is absolutely essential to Apple's success. Apple wouldn't be this successful without understanding basic and emergent human needs, designing products that meet those needs, designing the hardware and writing the software to enable those products, assembling the supply chain to manufacture those products in large quantity, the outbound marketing and pr that helps people understand what the product can do for them, the retail operations to help customers better understand the product and get one in their hot little hands, and support them until they purchase an upgrade a few product cycles hence. Its a big, complex system that manages a lot of messy uncertainty. You don't think that isn't engineering? That it isn't itself, technology?Even if you don't accept my view of technology, its hard for me to imagine a definition of technology that lets you say that technology has little to do with Apple's success without your head exploding. Take Apple's SoCs. Even back when they were assembling other people's IP to be fabbed by Samsung, they seemed to deliver significantly better power consumption than people using the same IP, on the same process generation. Does that not count as technology or engineering?I think the reason that more people don't know about engineers may be because too many engineers think that engineering and technology ends where their interest ends. They either don't understand or don't care where their work fits more than one level of abstraction away from where they spend their time. Or, perhaps worse, they devalue such considerations and anyone who cares about them.Quote from: 3roomlab on December 15, 2014, 03:50:43 amHow about Robert Noyce?

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2015, 09:56:09 pm
content: WANT vs NEEDthe first world problem that has distorted our priorities.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2015, 10:41:20 pm
content: If you want a quantifiable way to understand the relative value that the world places on scientists and engineers just compare the patent system with the copyright system.To get a patent you must prove uniqueness, pay fees. It will last a maximum of 17 years (in the US) if you pay all the fees.To get a copyright you just have to write down your material and state that it is copyrighted. No fees. And it lasts until you die and then decades longer.It is sad from and engineers point of view, but then I suspect if engineers and scientists ran things we would foul it up just as badly as the current crew. Get your joy from engineering. If you are eating and not out in the cold freezing life isn't that bad.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2015, 07:25:34 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on May 07, 2015, 10:41:20 pmSure, but some realise that if things go on like this, we could end up in the cold freezing, no eating.