When did people stop caring about stereo sound? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 01:29:15 pm
content: Since the Bluetooth speakers and music-playing "smart assistants" in their myriad of shapes, forms, of varying sizes, prices and quality gained popularity, I'm wondering how's that the general public seemingly stopped caring about stereo. When I was young, even the shittiest, crappiest Chineese knockoff "boomboxes", dual-deck cassette players and so on, proudly sported double speakers (of hilariuosly fake "P.M.P.O" rating, of course) in stereo configuration on their fronts. Up to a few years ago (and said prolification of portable BT speakers), I considered stereophonic sound to be a must-have feature on any but the simpliest, cheapest gear whose primary purpose was playing music. Something you take for granted and don't even think about. And, seemingly, so did the manufacturers. But then Bluetooth speakers arrived and suddenly lots of people are apparently fine with listening to their music in mono, not only while on the move (where it's justified and understandable) but in their homes' living rooms as well. To me, the pinnacle of this weird trend is the Apple HomePod - a $350 active mono speaker that the manufacturer claims was built with strong emphasis on high quality music reproduction, with some voice assistant functionality thrown in as a kind of an afterthought. In the few Apple HomePod reviews I skimmed over, the fact of it being a mono speaker only gets as much as a passing mention but usually is just being omitted altogether. All while praising the good, balanced sound quality the thing allegedly produces.So, is it the case that the stereo sound was, in fact, just a trend every manufacturer followed while the general public doesn't care and/or realize they're missing anything and some part of it is perfectly fine shelling out $350 for a trendy speaker from a trendy company to listen to their music in mono while praising it for the "high quality sound"? On one hand, I know I wouldn't accept monophonic music reproduction device other than a bedside table alarmclock/Bluetooth speaker combo. On the other hand, when I mentioned to my girlfriend that her mini audio system doesn't utilize its full potential while tucked in a tight cabinet with its both speakers clustered together and firing from behind and a side of the listener, she wasn't convinced but she sure knew she wouldn't like the speakers spread apart on the wall opposite to the sofa, in plain sight. So perhaps most people really just don't appreciate stereophonics as an important quality in music reproduction?ADDED:I do realize that Bluetooth A2DP profile supports stereo perfectly - I just used a mental shortcut where by "Bluetooth speaker" I meant a single, monophonic speaker that happens to use Bluetooth.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 01:35:57 pm
content: - "Alexa, can you play a song in stereo?"- "Sorry, I’m having trouble understanding you right now. Please try a little later"

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 01:36:21 pm
content: I'm actually guilty of that to a degree. I consider myself as having a "golden ear" but I also use Sonos speakers at home, which can be configured in stereo pairs. However I use them as "mono" speakers in the kitchen, bathroom and anywhere else I just want ambient or room-filling sound. They sound fantastic!Where stereo becomes important and even mandatory is when I'm listening to music seriously (relaxing on the couch) or in the car. Then I demand the best. It actually bothers me that my car only supports SBC over Bluetooth as opposed to some of the more advanced codecs and I certainly notice the difference.However for the most part, average consumers can't tell the difference between an MP3 file or an audio CD. To them, MP3 sounds great. To me (even at their highest constant bitrate) they sound garbage in comparison.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 01:38:48 pm
content: As far as I am concerned, stereo sound is still a requirement when listening to music. I started with vynl back in the '60s and even the technology back then figured out how to do a stereo sound from a grooved, rotating piece of plastic. I believe Bluetooth is merely a convenience for some people so they don't have to deal with wires, but I don't understand why there is not stereo output signal.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 01:39:23 pm
content: It is my understanding that the Apple system can be set up for stereo. You just buy two and set up the software. Certainly in keeping with the pricing in that world.The mono speakers actually make sense for background listening in a home. If you are moving about the room you will mostly be outside the stereo sweet spot, and often will be in places where there is little or no stereo effect. It might even be reversed.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 01:43:42 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 13, 2018, 01:36:21 pmYou lost me here, how can you demand the best with all those street/engine noises around you?Just curious, to me car environment and high quality music stay togheter "like water and oil" (that what we used to say in Italy...)

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 02:08:17 pm
content: modern engines are quiet unless you want them to be loud, and car manufacturers resort to every trick in the book to reduce engine noise.I even read that audi uses active noise cancellation! which i guess is possible because the driver's head is always in a more or less fixed position

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 02:10:58 pm
content: Nearly all of the music I listen to is in the car or through headphones. I consider for any non-utilitarian sound setup, stereo is a core requirement. Bonus points for 5.1 or 7.1 surround, but I would only consider that in a home theater configuration.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 02:13:36 pm
content: Quote from: zucca on April 13, 2018, 01:43:42 pmYes, however the human brain does an excellent job of ignoring or rejecting certain stimuli, both audible and visual. Just because undesired noise is present, doesn't mean you can't hear (and enjoy) the difference between a good quality sound system and an average one, or between a lossy file and lossless. Almost nobody listens to audio in a "perfect" environment.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 02:22:59 pm
content: The dumbasses around where I live have a very simple solution to the problem of road noise. They blast their blyating speakers enough for you to hear it, doors and windows closed, from half way across the neighborhood. I'm surprised their cheap ass 90's toyotas don't rattle apart with how bullshit high they bring it. Nobody could possibly hear any road noise with that shit blasted, or I suspect anything ever again.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 03:02:37 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 13, 2018, 02:13:36 pmGot it, my brain is different. If the SNR is low I don't care about THD or stereo anymore. I just got piss off about the noise.Anyway in my experience a BMW 7 series or Rolls-Royce are good to enjoy music.Back to the topic, if the SNR is high in the room/house (water running on my hears under a shower, washer running, kids screaming and so on) I am totally fine with a mono speaker.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 03:05:22 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on April 13, 2018, 02:08:17 pmThat was the beginning, now is much more my friend.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 04:02:04 pm
content: Quote from: zucca on April 13, 2018, 01:43:42 pmOn that topic I use a Bower & Wilkins PX noise canceling headphone in the car to listen to podcasts and mp3.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 05:07:32 pm
content: Since I started listening more to podcasts and audio books than music

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 05:15:47 pm
content: Sometimes stereo sound is nice, other times it just sounds artificial. Quite a bit of music was recorded in mono in the first place, and even in stereo it doesn't really sound like it does live. Then with stereo it only sounds really good from the sweet spot which doesn't help if I'm up and about in the room. I'm one of the relatively few who still has a hifi setup with floor standing speakers in my livingroom, my friend pointed out a while back that hardly anyone has that anymore and looking around I realized he was right. I think these days it largely just comes down to convenience, like photos for example. A nice SLR camera is going to take better pictures, but 99% of the time people are content to use their mobile phone for the task, it's just so much more convenient than dragging a big bulky camera around. The number of times I've seen someone listening to music from tinny speakers in their laptop or phone without even a good quality speaker suggests that convenience wins out far ahead of quality with most people.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 05:20:50 pm
content: If I'm actually listening to music then I want stereo. If it's background stuff whilst I do other (often noisy) stuff then mono and convenience win.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 05:31:26 pm
content: Since the music industry is downhill with quality, I'm not surprised. Loudness war ruined the listening experience way before the mono. I dont think most music is even recorded in stereo. And nowadays they just take a bunch of tweeters, place it in a resonating box, DSP it and there you go, 500 EUR box.Meanwhile the cheapest Philips 30W stereo is 75 EUR. Typical marketing, sell something bad expensive.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 06:41:53 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on April 13, 2018, 05:31:26 pmWhat are you guys going on about?...most music has been in stereo since the 1960s! As far as "recording in stereo", that's not really how it works anymore. You don't need to record in stereo with two microphones anymore, they create the stereo effects afterwords (unless they actually record the band traditionally playing all at once, then they might use multiple mics). Pretty much all vocal or single instrument recordings are in mono, but the music is still stereo and a lot of stereo effects are applied after recording. The most common effect is phase shifting.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 07:40:34 pm
content: Quote from: zucca on April 13, 2018, 01:43:42 pmIn the mid 90's I had a convertible that I installed 10 speakers; 4 tweeters, 4 mid range and 2 subwoofer tubes, and a modest 600 watts of power, done right-no distortion and rattling. The music sounded good with the top down or up. 70 MPH and I couldn't hear the wind with the top down. I used to have fun with the kiddies that had rattle trap cars and rattle trap stereos. I would pull up next to them and crank Beethoven's 9th Symphony, 4th Movement in the CD Player and watch them roll up all their windows. Great fun.

author: Edison
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2018, 03:01:15 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on April 13, 2018, 07:40:34 pmYes, I also like playing (1000W BOSE), but because I in the Czech Republic ...one morning a car without musicYes great funHifi mono - that's itI like quality stereo equipment or multi-channel sound, I am currently listening through - Cambridge Audio - Workshop, BOSE - Room and Morel - Car

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2018, 04:36:49 pm
content: I've wondered this as well, but its worth noting that many 'boomboxes' don't really place the speakers far enough apart to give any proper stereo effect in most situations anyway.We've had stereo systems in our living rooms but the speakers were never set up suitably well to benefit from the stereo effect, so TBH, mono sound would probably have been better there.Of course in my lab-cum-office-cum-bedroom, I have stereo speakers placed in an appropriate place.A few years ago, my Mum bought a new stereo radio/CD for the kitchen. Both speakers work, but only the left channel outputs anything. The right channel is faulty for some reason. I pondered trying to fix it but never bothered.

author: xmo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2018, 05:14:14 pm
content: When did people stop caring about stereo sound? When Sony introduced the Walkman. Since then - through a succession of products - personal players, Ipods, and smartphones - much of the listening is done through earbuds and earphones. Recordings are mastered to suit the way the audience listens.If you have a real stereo - listen to a recording from the 70's or 80's. Back then we talked about 'stereo imaging' and 'sound stage'. Played on a real system, a lot of those recordings present a wall-to-wall listening experience - a huge panoramic soundfield.Play one of those recordings through earbuds and your head will explode. So today's music has most of the content in the center. It still has a stereo effect. If you switch to mono - bridge the channels - the soundfield will compress somewhat but the effect is nowhere nearly as dramatic as doing the same ting to one of those earlier recordings where the whole image collapses.Today's recordings have a stereo effect that mostly just adds some 'air' or sense of space. If you want an immersive soundfield experience today, the place to get it is as part of a movie.

author: Johnboy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2018, 06:44:56 pm
content: Quote from: Zbig on April 13, 2018, 01:29:15 pmThis is something I've noted with disappointment over the years as an audio guy. People often seem to be more interested in placing speakers where they they are aesthethically pleasing (i.e. "out of the way") than where they might actually receive the most benefits of acoustics. Often the speakers are placed next to each other, narrowing the stereo field to the point where it's virtually unnoticeable.Since electric guitarists often like to utilize stereo sound effects (reverb, delay, phasing, etc) in their signal chain, there were a few manufacturers that manufactured and sold "stereo cabinets", which contained four equidistant 12" speakers in a square. The strange thing about this setup was that unless you were standing directly in the path of the cabinet, at a fairly close distance, the stereo aspect of the sound may as well have just vanished. Onstage, these cabinets really only provided the stereo sound for the player himself.As also noted in the thread, people have gotten used to listening to music with one ear. Although I think they're missing out, I think an even greater travesty is settling for the 8-bit mp3's. Convenience of music storage is not an acceptable excuse for lowering sound quality.To anyone reading this post, I would challenge you to put on a pair of headphones, listen to your favorite song in MP3 format and then compare it to an analog rendering of the same song via vinyl album (or even a 16-bit rendering from the physical compact disc). The depth of the stereo effects, and the spacial reference they bring to a piece of music, actually seems to be the first thing to disappear when digital compression/encoding are used to reduce the size of the file.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2018, 08:27:05 pm
content: It all depends on the bitrate of the encoding and the type of music. A 128kbps mp3 sounds rather poor to me, but 256 or 320kbps is indistinguishable from a CD or vinyl. I do have a significant vinyl collection but most of the time convenience wins over all else, probably 90% of my listening is mp3s. It may be slightly less than optimal but it's plenty good enough. Sounds better than a portable radio or tape player.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2018, 02:05:52 am
content: When in the car I use headphones. No point trying to turn that into a music listening environment unless you're driving a high end sensory deprivation luxury car.I avoid hard panning of track in my mixes. When listening to some jazz recordings from the 60's and 70's, some of the instruments were hard panned left or right, and they make me rather nauseous when played through headphones.A good composer and producer will be able to utilise stereophonic effects in their compositions. To me, rhythmic effects from left to right induce a physical reaction from me. Good music elicits several sensory and emotional effects in the listener.The tricky part is that you need a fairly constant listening environment to reproduce the effect. Stereo headphones are an easy solution. Maybe it's an outdated concept to expect people to sit in one position with carefully placed stereo speakers.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2018, 02:26:42 am
content: Why would equipment vendors waste money releasing pseudo stereo devices with todays noise masquerading as musicIt's monotonous, repetitive, compressed, ear wrenching autotuned drivel,why artificially stretch this noise out between 2 speakers and have to endure phase/comb filter honk as well ?Keep the crap in MONO, less headache for everyoneIf you need to listen (enjoy) real stereo, go old school with basic working gear and recordings

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2018, 02:28:57 am
content: In the US it's illegal to use headphones while driving, at least in my state it is. I think the worry is that you won't hear the sirens of emergency vehicles.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2018, 03:12:05 am
content: Apparently the world has changed a lot since I decided to become a hermit ten years ago, but I still care about stereo sound. My set up these days is not that much different from what it was in the nineties. Hard drives instead of plastic discs and a USB DAC instead of the one inside a CD player, but the amp and speakers haven't changed.(edit: picture is kind of poor, sorry for that)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2018, 03:52:57 am
content: I've shoot most of my content with Mono audio, Stereo just down anything when you are doing behind the camera commentary.

author: Johnboy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2018, 04:04:06 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 14, 2018, 08:27:05 pmMy age reminds me to point out that most of today's music is produced digitally to begin with. There's no analog tape to start with, so there isn't much of a difference in the sound of the modern vinyl records. Even recording at 24-bit, I know that the instant I burn a disc I have to settle for the 16-bit version. There isn't a whole lot of difference in this step, but by the time I get down to 8-bit it's noticeable, for sure.Not to get too far off topic, but I wanted to clarify that the older recordings that were originally analog are very different in sterophonic imaging from their "digitally remastered" counterparts. The stereo experience is apples-to-oranges different with the analog rendition. If you have some older recordings on vinyl, try it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2018, 06:17:28 am
content: Almost all of my vinyl is pre-1990, I have some going back much further, including some pre-war 78's but it wasn't until the 1950s that I'd consider anything to be "hi-fi". I still can't hear much difference between a good digital version and a vintage analog recording, but I've never claimed to have golden ears. There is certainly a different experience to plopping a record on a turntable though and I still enjoy digging through boxes of musty old records at thrift stores.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2018, 06:30:08 am
content: Quote from: Johnboy on April 15, 2018, 04:04:06 amProper stereo recordings are still made. It's just that it is no longer mainstream. Change your music preference to higher quality music where the recording technicians have done things right, and you wont have a problem. Otherwise, live with the mainstream junk.

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2018, 07:27:15 am
content: On the subject of stereo sound, one of our "local" AM radio stations is peculiar. Obviously the AM signal is mono, but to make that mono signal, they just broadcast either the left or right channel of the original stereo material. One would have thought they'd have mixed the two together.They play quite a lot of old songs and it tends to be noticeable. I was listening to said station when I went out earlier and they played a song which had considerable stereo separation, but I only got to listen to one channel. I forget the name of the song unfortunately.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2018, 07:38:27 am
content: Quote from: steve30 on April 15, 2018, 07:27:15 amAny original early stereo Beatles material will be missing half the vocals & some of the instruments.

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2018, 08:04:48 am
content: Stereo reproduction is intended to have the two speakers at +/-30 degree angles from the listener - i.e. the positions of the listener and the two speakers form an equilateral triangle. Obviously in this config, sounds played only through the left speaker appear to come from a left position on the 'stage', sounds only played through the right speaker are from a right position and sounds played equally through both speakers are directly forwards. By fading sounds between the two speakers, the apparent location of sounds can be moved around. This implementation however can only represent virtual sources through a 60deg angle, since that is the angle that the speakers are placed. The major problem with this simple stereo setup is that as the listener moves away from the vertex on the equilateral triangle, the distances between them and each speaker diverge and this causes a problem because humans ability to localise sounds is heavily biased by the difference in arrival times of sounds between left and right ears in addition to the amplitude between left and right ears. If the speakers are trying to reproduce a sound that is left of centre by playing it a little louder through the left speaker, but you are positioned closer to the right speaker, it will sound like it is coming from a further right position. Basically as you move off-centre all the stereo amplitude cues get messed up and you are effectively listening to mono again. Also as you move to a non-ideal position in the room the reflections from walls/roof/floor start to become around similar amplitudes as the sound coming directly from the speakers, which further messes up the stereo 'image'.This however can be improved by playing the sound very slightly earlier (fraction of a millisecond) from the left speaker if you want to produce a sound that is to the left. Theoretically with this, virtual sources through a full 180degrees can be reproduced as if you delay the right speaker by the speed of sound divided by the width of a human head the delay is the same as if the sound came from directly left of the head, arrived at the left ear and then shortly after arrived at the right ear. Additionally, there is now less of a requirement that the speakers be placed at such a wide angle - the 60deg can be reduced to 10-20deg. This now comes with the advantage that because the speakers are placed much closer together, the distance between each speaker and the listener don't diverge as severely as the listener moves off-axis. For that reason, a bluetooth stereo speaker with the stereo speakers placed ~30cm apart and some digital sound processing to 'widen' the stereo stage might actually deliver stereo sound to listeners through a wider range than two speakers placed several meters apart would. That said, if you are positioned at some acute angle, you will still be listening to what is effectively mono sound.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2018, 08:34:47 am
content: Quote from: TMM on April 15, 2018, 08:04:48 amThat may be optimal for some speakers, not all. I have no problem with the stereo imaging effect anywhere in my living room and my speakers face forward parallel.

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2018, 08:48:01 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on April 15, 2018, 08:34:47 amAmplitude matching between left and right can be achieved if the speakers have good off-axis response and the room has appropriate sound treatment to control reflections, but the timing will be off as soon as you move to one side because as you move to the right, the right speaker becomes closer and the left speaker gets further away. Having the speakers 'toed in' toward the listener or just facing parallel forward makes no difference to timing (although, can improve amplitude matching). It's the physical location (X,Y) with respect to the listener that matters for timing.As soon as the difference in distances between left and right becomes larger than the distance between your ears, cancellation occurs and directional timing cues get messed up. I doubt there is proper stereo imaging for 'anywhere' in your room. More likely there is just "my left ear is hearing different things to my right ear" and that is not necessarily a stereo image with each virtual sound source placed in the position that the artist/sound engineer intended. The traditional 60deg setup is really a 'one seat' setup for practical room sizes.It is for that reason that people have proposed putting the left and right speakers closer together and using DSP to further differentiate positional sound cues in the time domain and implementing head related transfer functions - it maintains a valid stereo image through a wider range of listening positions.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 03:58:22 am
content: After thinking about it a bit more I would say when MP3's took over.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 10:02:09 am
content: Quote from: calexanian on April 18, 2018, 03:58:22 am...with help from s*** bands and talentless trailer trashcheap prostitutes, drug dealers, street thugswith 'Autotune assisted/enhanced' recordingsI doubt these donkeys would know left from right, much less any concept of 'stereo'