Rigol DS1054Z or not? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: ultrarunner2018
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 02:35:37 am
content: Hi;I know that there are several (if not many) threads on the Rigol DS1054Z, but rather than hijack someone else's thread, I figured I should start my own.I have spent the better part of the day researching oscilloscopes in the < $500 price range. I have watched a couple of Dave's EEVblog videos on the Rigol DS1054Z. He seems to be very enthusiastic about this scope; moreso than the Siglent SDS1202X-E (200Mhz) for example. I have learned a lot about DSO's in the process.At this point I believe that the Rigol DS1054Z would be my best option. I can't imagine using many of its features, but it seems to be a solid 4-channel scope. Of course I understand the limitations of 4 channels with 1Gsa/sec, but how often will I actually use the full bw while also using all four channels?I also understand that the 100Mhz hack still works, and that there is a discount at TEquipment for members of this forum. So I'm not rushing out to buy anything today; I need to consider all the factors, and think about what I really want to do with this scope.In the immediate future, I am planning to build some Raspberry Pi projects. I just bought a Pi 3 b+ and have been studying Python programming for the pi. So I got to thinking that I could probably use (or might actually need) a scope for some of the projects I want to build.I am also a ham, and have several radios including a Yaesu FT-450D, FT-60R, VX-150, and an old FT-530. I was thinking about adding the pan-adapter to the FT-450D, but I don't know how much work is involved. Whether or not I will need a scope for that, I don't know. But I am sure that I will have many uses for a scope in the future.My budget is definitely under $500, but more comfortable with under $400, thus the DS1054Z.I am not really in a rush to get a scope - I'm still a couple weeks away from knowing enough Python 3 to build any of the Pi projects, but on the other hand, I don't want to wait too long - in case Rigol does decide to change the firmware on the 1054Z and the 100Mhz hack stops working...Thanks for your helpFW

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 02:55:00 am
content: Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on August 31, 2018, 02:35:37 amNot going to happen.There's no ongoing "battle" between Rigol and hackers, Rigol knows that the hack helps them to sell oscilloscopes. If they stopped the hacking now then everybody would buy Siglents instead.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 03:01:23 am
content: Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on August 31, 2018, 02:35:37 amHello!I could afford a better scope but I have the DS1054Z and I have made many repairs using it. I have used all four channels to document signal information for others that may have wanted to repair some of the items I worked on. It's a good scope for the money still to this day. There are others available now but since I have had mine for four years I don't regret buying it.

author: GregDunn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 03:16:05 am
content: The Rigol is a bargain as a low-end scope. I elected to buy one of the Siglent DS1104X-E because of the faster sampling rate in 3 or 4 channel modes, and the more responsive user interface. As a bonus, having a realtime remote web interface is far more useful than I thought it would be; I can monitor a test from my upstairs office computer and make screen captures to document what I'm seeing. Well worth the extra money to me.

author: ultrarunner2018
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 03:56:02 am
content: Quote from: GregDunn on August 31, 2018, 03:16:05 amDoesn't the SDS1104X-E have the same 1Gsa/sec that the Rigol DS1054Z has?Unless that's per channel and not all channels combined as with the Rigol.Edit: OK, I see the difference. Two ADC's vs one, so 2x the sample rate when 4 channels are active.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 04:04:53 am
content: Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on August 31, 2018, 03:56:02 amCorrect. Also each ADC has 14 Mpts support for a max on any one channel of 14 Mpts.Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on August 31, 2018, 02:35:37 amUnderstandable, 4ch vs 2.If you want to stack up these 3 side by side, it's been done in a comparison table in the first post in this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/Check it out.Come back with anything you have trouble getting to grips with.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 04:09:32 am
content: Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on August 31, 2018, 03:56:02 amAlso with two channels if you don't select 1 and 2 or 3 and 4.I ended choosing the Rigol, but the price difference for me was much greater than for most.JS

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 10:36:19 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 31, 2018, 04:04:53 amOh, sure, a chart made by Siglent fanboys using an unhacked Rigol and cherry picked data points. Basically a Siglent sales brochure.eg. How come the waveform memory isn't in red for the Siglents? The Rigol definitely has more (24 vs 14).Clue: Anything on there that says "option" in the Rigol column should be included and the green removed from the Siglent columns.etc.

author: ultrarunner2018
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 12:20:18 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 31, 2018, 10:36:19 amIf you're talking about the Rigol DS1054Z, I think it comes standard with 12M memory with 24M as an option. Does the hack open that up as well?

author: ultrarunner2018
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 12:44:13 pm
content: Comparing the Siglent SDS1104X-E to the Rigol DS1054Z (hacked), what stands out the most is the 2x ADC for double the sps in multi-channel use. From what I read, there is one ADC for channels 1 & 2, and another for channels 3 & 4. So, if you use only two channels, you can get the full 1Gsa/sec on each by using channels 1 & 3 (or 1 & 4, or 2 & 3...); am I correct on this?I wonder if the SDS1104X-E suffers from the same glitches that the SDS1202X-E does? In the EEVblog review I watched, there were a couple serious "glitches"; one where the scope needed to be rebooted.Since the price difference between the Rigol DS1054Z (with the 100Mhz hack) and the Siglent SDS1104X-E is $150, I really need to know that the Siglent is that much better than the Rigol before I could justify the extra cash.I do like the 2x ADC's, and the realtime remote web interface. From what I read about the Rigol, their remote software is useless.I may have application for that, as my workbench is across the room from my PC, and if I am running my Raspberry pi headless, it would be nice to have both the pi and the scope available on my PC.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 12:44:34 pm
content: Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on August 31, 2018, 02:35:37 amFirst off, welcome to the forum. A day, or even a week is not enough time to study this scope market unless you are already very familiar with digital scopes. Much of Dave's enthusiasm for the 1054Z is a few years old. Not saying he still does not feel that way, but when those videos were made the 1054Z stood alone. Since then a few others have joined the market. You also need to get to know the posters whose advice you are listening to, impartiality should not be taken for granted, for one reason or another. If this is an important purchase for you and you are not in a hurry, take some time and learn the machines.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 12:49:42 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 31, 2018, 10:36:19 amWe sould not discuss the bias of the colors. A Rigol "fanboy" only has to switch the red by green and there he has it: A chart made from the perspective of a Rigol salesman. (it's only some shifts in the RGB pallete...)The colors just help make a quick visual comparison.But, of course, what is important is if the written information is correct or not!Regarding the Options/BW licensing: in the past few months it has become evident that it's as easy to license a Siglent as it is to license a Rigol.As such, it's clear that both companies are pricing their products based on the full potential of their products.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 12:55:00 pm
content: Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on August 31, 2018, 12:20:18 pmYes. It opens up every possible option.

author: JanJansen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 12:59:46 pm
content: About time for Rigol to make a replacement, i been waiting so long.Siglent is always biassed on this forum, for that reason stay away from siglent.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 01:00:28 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on August 31, 2018, 12:49:42 pmWe'll see if it lasts. Siglent has a history of closing loopholes.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 01:01:12 pm
content: Many distributors meanwhile offer a 30 days no-questions-asked return policy. Why not just order the two instruments that fit the frame best, compare them side-by-side and then keep the one that you like better? Of course, applying the "hacks" is probably not an option during this test phase (yet, in case of the DS1054Z the hack can be reverted without a trace, in case of the Siglent or others I have no experience). But the general "look and feel" in my opinion is more important than subtle differences in features (except they are important in your specific case -- for example, if the FFT is something you'll use often, skip the Rigol... while the Rigol has the more mature firmware and probably is less buggy).Cheers,Thomas

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 01:01:41 pm
content: Quote from: JanJansen on August 31, 2018, 12:59:46 pmThere's quite a few Siglent salesmen posting here (some of them even put it in their signatures).

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 01:09:29 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 31, 2018, 01:00:28 pmIt may be (almost) so in the functionality features. In regards to Options\BW licensing, Siglent can't do nothing for all the models that are out on the street. And, I'm not talking about disabling pro_mode.BTW, I would love to be a Rigol DS7000 fan!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 01:10:56 pm
content: Be sure to put the GW Instek GDS1054B on your list as well. This oscilloscope can also be hacked to have all the options like decoding, waveform search, etc available.It seems there is also a 300MHz bandwidth optionhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/possible-gw-instek-gds-1000b-hack/msg1647953/#msg1647953

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 01:13:30 pm
content: Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on August 31, 2018, 02:35:37 amIt's not actually a limitation on a 100MHz 'scope, 250Msa/sec is enough to reconstruct a 100MHz signal on screen (Nyquist limit is 200Msa/sec.)The Siglent needs more than 1Gsa/sec because it can be a 200MHz 'scope.Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on August 31, 2018, 02:35:37 amHopefully never. If you want to look at a signal with 100MHz base frequency then you need much more than a 100Mhz 'scope or you won't see any harmonics/distortions. All you can really see on a 100MHz 'scope is the 100MHz base sine wave.This is another reason why 250Msa/sec. is enough, in reality you won't be looking at 100MHz waveforms.nb. If you want to see every last detail of a step input then you can switch to a single channel to look at it - you have the full 1Ghz sample rate.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 01:13:49 pm
content: Quote from: JanJansen on August 31, 2018, 12:59:46 pmCase in point - Siglent scopes are no good because people here like them. Surely there is better criteria for selecting the best scope for you. Read everything, listen to everybody, and do your own homework.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 01:18:48 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on August 31, 2018, 01:09:29 pmThey can fix bugs and add new features - make the hackers jealous/miserable.Quote from: tv84 on August 31, 2018, 01:09:29 pmIt's quite nice. They'll own the market if it turns out to be hackable.Quote from: JanJansen on August 31, 2018, 12:59:46 pmRigol have been concentrating on making an ASIC for the mid-range market (ie. their new DS7000).Now that's done they'll surely go back to the low end market and put the ASIC in a low-cost 'scope.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 01:33:47 pm
content: Quote from: Old Printer on August 31, 2018, 01:13:49 pmNot true. Siglent 'scopes are good enough, but overall bang-per-buck is less than a hacked Rigol.OTOH: If the Siglent hacks being found right now are easy to apply and work in the long-term it means you can get a 200MHz, 4-channel Siglent for $500. That puts it in the same value category as the $350 Rigol, IMHO.Is therereallya big difference in ordinary use? That's debatable but, hey, a working 200Mhz hack at least makes it competitive price-wise.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 01:51:03 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 31, 2018, 10:36:19 amFirst. Of course if we compare things need use official versions, not "illegally" hacked.Why memory is not red in Siglent.Because if do this, then need do more colums in table.Siglent have 2x 14Mpts max. Rigol 1x 24Mpoints if Option is active.But then, again Siglent go to green if 3 or all 4 channels are in use. Then Rigol with option have 6M for each channel and Siglent 7M.What are "cherry picked". Ok, you can do opposite cherry pick. I will recommend you to do it. Lets see after then how nice chart you get.Do you really think I'm Siglent fanboy. This is so far away truth what ever can be. You are fall in love with Rigol and this make you extremely biased and blind. With my profession with electronics I can not be any single manufacturter fanboy, never. It was tens of years ago I have been small amount of Tektronix, Hewlett-Packard and Rohde&Schwarz "fanboy. Also I have been some years in history Rockwell Collins and Racal "fanboy".Last two months in real life I have recommended when asked least LeCroy, Keysight, Tektronix, Rigol, Owon, R&S, Siglent, Fluke, Victor and some others.With all my professional knowledge and tens of years professional (now retired) and also hobby experience with lot of T&M equipment and this is real work, not "salesman" at all. Now I some times sell some equipment mostly Siglent and this is perhaps <1% of things wjhat I do. It do not mean any single things for m,e if someone buy Siglent or what ever. But also I can tell that if we talk oscilloscope as serious tool. Siglent SDS1004X-E series is far over Riglol DS1000Z series. There is no much competition in performance. But also as I have many many times told, it is not even fair to compare so different equipments. Like compare "light car" and car. Yes both have 4 wheels... and both we name "car".And then, Rigol come to markets far before these Siglent models and at this time if need cheap 4 channel entry levbel scope it really was amazing and together with hack it come really popular and with reasons. Even so amazing that one day I my self buy one for one project. Even today DS1054Z is good selection specially if do not need more performance and need 4 channels and budget is limited to its price today. Good hobby scope for many use. But then, bit more money and get lot of more performance.But then if we start do more serious oscilloscope work... then there come these Siglent models strong features. As example fast sequence acquistion (up to 100M memory), always backround running history (up to 100M memory), 2 chanels 1GSa/s because it have 2 ADC when Rigol have one. Much better true sensitivity. True full sample memory resolution measurements. Right working fully and free selectable post processing Sin(x)/x (important with some kind of signals when Sinc is not optimal.Lot of better FFT.Bode plot what beats all scopes in its price class as 10-1 (as also history and fast sequence) If I start real cherry picking... oh well I do not want even start this debateOf course if use example 1 cannel alon Rigol have 24M. THis is nearly double if compare Siglent.Oh but I have many times heard that peoples need 4 channel scope...If use 2 channel. With option active Rigol have 12 M for both channels. and 500MSa/s max. (without option, 6M)Siglent have out from box if 2 channels in use 14M for both max and 1GSa/s for both max.So is it more wise keep these main colums without full red or full green. Because in some use Siglent is out from box more than Rigol even with option and I have weighted in this thinking 4 channel use and not only available max alone in some use (1 channel use) And if you look, I have colored this Rigol light green (this case if option active). So, who and what is cherry picking.Ok, lets think hack. Then Rigol 50MHz is 100MHz and Siglent 100MHz is 200MHz.Then Siglent 500uV/div and Rigol 5mV/div if we look full vertical resolution.How about Rigol salesmens 12 bit high resolution.This is least partially lie. There is not any 12 bit resolution available. What ever mode use it is 8 biot and nothing more, after ADC and in acquisaition memory. There is no 12 bit. (very different if look example some Tektronix high resolution what also mean that there is higher resolution in memory... example 8bit normally and high res depending settings up to over 12 bit and it is in acquistiuon memory. They can tell high res mode have (example) 12 bit. (yes in some model memory width is doubled)Still waiting 1GHz Siglent SDS5000X...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 02:04:24 pm
content: The DS1054Z has been massively popular thanks to the incredibly easy hack and consequent value for money. Saying you need to compare unhacked or locked versions makes no sense at all.Suggesting such a hack would be illegal seems to be a bit of fearmongering.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 02:07:12 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 31, 2018, 01:33:47 pmPlease when come time you can define there bang and buck to reality.I'm waiting you show this accounting book and balance sheet about bangs and bucks.But, it is how and what we count and what value we give to different things/features and performance.Original quoted claim is yours so please define it or is it just so that you have heard it and repeat this claim as parrot. But if you show accounting book and balance sheet about this then it give some ground under your legs.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 02:25:43 pm
content: It's so tiring to have the same usual suspects duking out a Siglent versus Rigol versus GW-Instek war every time any of those brands is mentioned. It's enough to make me want to recommend a nice Keysight oscilloscope to anyone in the market for one.How about a nice Keysight oscilloscope?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 02:38:01 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 31, 2018, 02:25:43 pmBut the bang-per-buck is even worse on thoseStill it is good to have a complete list with what is available and not just buy what is recommended by distributors.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 02:41:48 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 31, 2018, 02:38:01 pmThe WPM, or Whining Per Message is incredibly low though!

author: wpwrak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 03:46:38 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 31, 2018, 02:04:24 pmThe real issues with those hacks are:1) you have no assurance that the manufacturer won't plug the respective hole in a future firmware update (which, if they're nasty, may also prevent you from going back to an older firmware version),2) for those who care about warranty: not only may the manufacturer refuse units that have been "hacked", but they may routinely update the firmware if you send in yours for repair, so it may come back with the hole plugged (see 1),3) any feature that is not sold as in-the-field-upgradeable may simply not work reliably if you enable it through a hack.An example for 3): let's assume you have 100 and 200 MHz versions of the same platform. There could be manufacturing tests that determine at what frequency any given unit passes the -3 dB point. If this frequency is >= 200 MHz (plus some margin), it can be sold as 100 or 200 MHz unit. If it's >= 100 MHz + margin, this is a 100 but not 200 MHz unit. If it's < 100 MHz + margin, it goes to the recycler.So if someone asks for a 100 MHz unit, and they're out of them, but have some 200 MHz units in stock, they can just ship one of those, labeled as 100 MHz, instead of making the customer/distributor wait (or giving them a free upgrade). Whether they actually do this depends on a lot of factors (engineering, manufacturing, logistics, marketing, ...) that can change over time.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 03:52:10 pm
content: Quote from: wpwrak on August 31, 2018, 03:46:38 pmThis is utter nonsense because that would mean they can't produce enough 200MHz units without getting stuck with unsold 100MHz units if push comes to shove. No sane company is going to work this way.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 03:53:26 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 31, 2018, 02:04:24 pmI don't see how pushing a special sequence of buttons on the front panel could be against the law.(or void your warranty)

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 04:04:12 pm
content: Quote from: wpwrak on August 31, 2018, 03:46:38 pmAnd yet, after a few years, they have done nothing to prevent the unlocking. They could change the encryption, heck, they could change it with every release. They have done nothing. Selling thousands a week is more important on low end models. At one time I watched TEquipment's inventory numbers and it appeared they alone were selling 1000+ per week.QuoteSo? I would just 'unhack' the scope before sending it in and 'rehack' it when I get it back. Do you really think Rigol is unaware of this hacking? They know and they don't care. They also know commercial customers won't hack the scope and will likely pay the extra bucks for the official version. It is probably worth it to Rigol to get these scopes in the hands of hobbyists and hope for name recognition when the owners go to work and recommend their products.I blew off the warranty when I replaced the fan and the selector switch. Somehow I just don't see the warranty as a big deal on a $350 scope. If it dies in a few years, I'll buy something else. I've had it a couple of years so my cost/year is about $175 and falling every day. If I get 10 years out of it my cost is $35 per year!QuoteThat's the entire point of optional upgrades. I can choose to buy the feature long after I buy the scope. These unlocked options aren't some kind of 'hack' (I hate that word!) it is simply unlocking features already designed for field upgrade. They are already built into the scope. There's no 'hack' involved, it's simply 'unlocking'.I think that Siglent SDS 1204X-E is quite the scope. I might ultimately upgrade from the DS1054Z but I don't think I'll be getting rid of it.We shouldn't pretend that a $350 scope is a big deal. Keysight still makes $300,000 scopes so these entry models aren't even a wart on a real scope.It really doesn't pay to take sides. The Rigol is rightly criticized for a poor UI, the Siglent is supposed to be a lot better. Siglent is criticized for very slow release of firmware upgrades (if any at all) but I don't know anything about that. Rigol has been good about firmware upgrades. Rigol has been criticized for fan noise. There is a fix but it blows the warranty. Rigol has been rightly criticized for the selector switch not having detents. Again, there is a fix that blows the warranty. The point is, both scopes have warts.But I would always prefer more bandwidth and that SDS 1204 is probably my next scope. 200 MHz is greater than 100 MHz and it matters.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 04:08:42 pm
content: Quote from: wpwrak on August 31, 2018, 03:46:38 pmI think you haven't seen my post here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/msg1774208/#msg1774208Although there are plenty of Siglent "ingenious hacks" in this forum (that take advantage of some temporary/or not loopholes in the FW), what I'm saying in that msg is that you can extract theofficial licensesfrom within a memdump without any "advanced hacking"!And, with an official license, there is NO RISK in upgrades/unreliability beyond any bug that may exist.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 04:13:35 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 31, 2018, 03:52:10 pmMoreover, these upgrades are field installable by entering a code. On every single scope! They can't possibly predict which customers are going to buy upgrades, every single unit must be capable when unlocked.I really wish we didn't use the word 'hack'. There's no hacking involved. We aren't fundamentally changing anything. We're not ripping out components, changing component values or adding wire jumpers. No, we are simply unlocking features that already exist and are field upgradeable. Features that are designed, manufactured and tested to work by the manufacturer. That's why I can go online and pay for the code if I so desire. Field upgradeable! And it's not a 'hack', it's unlocking.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 04:23:47 pm
content: And the thread continues on the same foot.It would be an interesting discussion if it hadn't been discussed 5 billion times before.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 04:27:56 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 31, 2018, 04:23:47 pmIf nothing else it tells the OP he needs to dig a little deeper on this subject.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 04:28:57 pm
content: Quote from: Old Printer on August 31, 2018, 04:27:56 pmIt's really not that complicated, but the religious wars waged over it make the difference seem like a big deal.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 04:55:14 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 31, 2018, 04:28:57 pmScram,Relax and enjoy the ride.(Although I agree with you.)In the end, this is just a question of money!Rigol DZ1054Z has been a stupendous unrivaled machine (in it's segmen, bang-for-the-buck, etc, etc). Now, this Siglent model (chassis) is better because it's a 200 MHz model, bla, bla. And, that is mirrored in the price.Nobody talks about the Rigol as a 50MHz machine. If that's so, then just admit that the Siglent is also a 200MHz machine.It's $150 more expensive, right! If you don't need the extra-features/BW go with the Rigol and save the money!

author: wpwrak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 05:06:34 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 31, 2018, 03:52:10 pmExcuse me ? It is perfectly normal and established practice to design for a performance range and then bin according to manufacturing tests. Or do you think companies like Intel really have dozens of different chip designs for their CPUs ?And internally distinguishing between units that are capable of 200 MHz and those that are not doesn't mean that they'd accumulate unsellable stock. But it would make sense to fill 100 MHz orders preferably with non-200 MHz units, so that, in case demand does exceed supply, they can still fill the more profitable 200 MHz orders.Again, whether a given manufacturer does this, and how that process is designed, depends on many factors that are not necessarily constant over time.

author: wpwrak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 05:20:12 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on August 31, 2018, 04:04:12 pmThis is true (in the case of the Rigol 1000Z series) for decoders or more memory. But neither Rigol nor Siglent sell you bandwidth upgrades, at least not for their respective 1000 series. "A-brand" companies often do sell you such upgrades, so we can reasonably expect that even the low-bandwidth models of such a series have been tested for the maximum bandwidth.But we don't know whether the same is true for devices that never had such an option to begin with. Whether this lack of certainty is something that bothers you or not is of course something that's entirely up to you :-)

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 05:32:12 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on August 31, 2018, 04:55:14 pmExactly.But even when "exactly" I want change/add one...Nobody talks about the Rigol as a 50MHz machine. If that's so, then just admit that the Siglent is also a 200MHz machine.It's $150 more expensive, right! If you don't need the extra features, performance, BW go with the Rigol and save the money!Money is important to many peoples. Some have high desire and interest to do electronics hobby with veven very extremely limited possible to use money. These peoples need also high respect and offer opportunity to do with llow limited budget and not feel that I need shame because can not buy this or that little or more expensive equipment what then get "accepoted" in community. Some may do miracles only with very cheap simple things and some may do all junk and crap with highest expensive "rolls rouce" class instruments.Buy just what is enough to you and make things possible with these economical limits what just you have. It is not how nice and expensive cvamera you carry. It is what kind of photographs you can take. And even camera obscura is enough for highest class art - if people have enough knowledge, experience skill and enthusiasm.It is not what brand and price scope have, it is what for and how you use it for personal needs and possibilities.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 05:47:11 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on August 31, 2018, 05:32:12 pmOf course, just to highlight that it was not my intention to disrespect anyone. I'm also on the "limited budget"-side!It all comes down to money and if people are tight on budget and if the Rigol is all and beyond they will ever need, then go with the Rigol. But, dont' compare pears and apples.BTW, I have a Rigol DS1052E available (150MHz!!!!)... Almost unused! Make good price.

author: gedong
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 05:53:43 pm
content: for me $150 is about 2 month saving. so it's quite a lot for me.but i always think to myself, scope is important in electronics, they usually last long time maybe more than 5years if im lucky. the technology itself is slow, unlike phones you get better specs every year.they are more future proof, even if i didnt use 75% of the features, just knowing it's there makes me feel good. who knows what i got myself into in the future. or maybe because i wanted to use thatfeatures, hopefully it will motivate me to learn something new.in the past, not having decent equipment are my reasoning for being lazy, but now i know the truth, i am lazyif you have the money why not choose the better option.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 05:58:08 pm
content: Quote from: wpwrak on August 31, 2018, 05:06:34 pmIn the case of oscilloscopes: I think it's very unlikely that they bin according to frequency.Everything downstream of the bandwidth-limiting capacitor in the front end is identical in models. The ADC is the same, it samples at the same rate, the FPGA is the same, the CPU is the same, they all run at the same clock frequency, etc. This is where the majority of the failures will be and they apply to all models.Upstream of that capacitor? There's really only a handful of passive components. The chances that those components work perfectly at 50MHz but not at 100MHz is very very slim indeed. They'll either work or not.It's probably cheaper for Rigol/Siglent to just do a pass/fail test at maximum bandwidth than to maintain the extra logistics needed for binning the handful of 'scopes which fall into the "maybe" category (which may fail after a few hours of use and cost a lot of money/reputation to put right!)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 06:07:17 pm
content: Quote from: wpwrak on August 31, 2018, 05:06:34 pmThat is comparing apples with oranges. If I buy an opamp with a given spec it will meet that spec. If you want to make a lower grade (cheaper) product then you'd have to use lower spec components and basically have two different products in stock. Even Tektronix and Agilent have been using the same boards in different oscilloscopes. Just look for the Tektronix TDS744A / TDS784A and Agilent 54835A / 54845A threads for examples where they used exactly the same hardware for oscilloscopes with different specifications. It is cheaper to have one design and one bill of materials compared to having multiple.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 06:18:49 pm
content: Quote from: gedong on August 31, 2018, 05:53:43 pmYep.There's a lot of Siglent salesmen posting here but at the end of the day a Rigol DS1054Z is still a very useful and well built oscilloscope. The difference between owning one and not owning one ishuge(night/day). The difference between a Rigol and a Siglent? Nowhere near as much, but it's 40% more money.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 06:25:40 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 31, 2018, 06:07:17 pmYep. Intel makes huge pieces of silicon with multiple CPU cores and billions of transistors on them.I'm not sure how much of Intel's binning is done by clock frequency these days but the chances of individual transistors failing on one of those dies is quite high.It will be very common for individual cores to fail so it makes a lot of sense to turn (eg.) eight-core I7s into four-core i5s during testing.Oscilloscopes simply aren't like that.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 06:26:31 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 31, 2018, 06:18:49 pmI agree! We are all stupid because of using a car. We should use a horse and carriage instead. That also works and is way cheaper. I feel like an idiot for not realising that sooner

author: ultrarunner2018
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 06:30:53 pm
content: All of the features/functions on these scopes is a bit overwhelming to me. I have little experience with complex waveforms, and have never done anything with serial decoding (for one). This is not to say that I won't do these things once I have a scope that can.The way I look at it; this scope will be both a piece of test equipment, and an educational tool. I have never found a better way of learning than performing experiments.Being a ham, I can get interested in all sorts of things radio related. Honestly, I am more interested (at this point) in experimentation than I am in getting on the air. The HF bands are pretty bad most of the time, and when they're good, there is hardly anything I feel like talking about. I keep telling myself that I'm going to go for my Extra exam soon, but soon never comes, as the additional band allocations for the Extra aren't worth all that much to me as an Advanced class.That may all change once I buy this scope. Having the scope will (hopefully) get me curious about things, and that will lead to my learning much of what is on the Extra exam. While I could simply study for the test and pass it, life will be a lot more interesting if I actually do some hands-on experimentation.Can someone please tell me how much bandwidth and what features I will need to build some Raspberry Pi projects?I don't know which projects I might build, but I know that once I get my pi connected to my breadboard and start plugging components onto it, I am going to need to see what is going on.I also have an SDRPlay (RSP1) which I had used a lot before buying my Yaesu Ft-450D, which I enjoy a lot. Of course the SDRPlay isn't a transmitter, but it was enough to rekindle my interest in HF - only to find that the HF bands have been really bad for some time, and will take some more time before things improve. That said, I am not sorry that I bought the FT-450D.If it appears that I will be doing a lot of work with frequencies approaching 100Mhz, then I would definitely consider the extra $150 (over the cost of the Rigol DS1054Z) for the Siglent SDS1104X-E worthwhile.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 06:35:14 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 31, 2018, 06:26:31 pmSee, this is the problem^: Theyreallythink the difference between a Rigol and Siglent is like the difference between a horse and carriage and an automobile.In reality it's like the difference between an automobile and thesame modelautomobile but with leather seats and bigger cupholders.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 06:45:53 pm
content: Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on August 31, 2018, 06:30:53 pmIf it's "Arduino" type projects then either will do. You're not going to be looking at more than about 20MHz.Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on August 31, 2018, 06:30:53 pmBut this makes it really difficult to reply.From what you've said so far, you might want to seriously look at the Analog Discovery 2 instead of just an oscilloscope:https://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on August 31, 2018, 06:30:53 pmIf you're actually approaching 100Mhz then neither will do. Signals have harmonics at multiples of the base frequency.eg. If you feed a 100Mhz square wave into a 100Mhz oscilloscope then you'll only see a 100Mhz sine wave. All the harmonics that made it a square wave are lost.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 06:47:39 pm
content: Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on August 31, 2018, 06:30:53 pmWhile you might get that answer here, if you belong to a Rasp Pi forum you might try asking that question there of the members that have scopes.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 06:47:52 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 31, 2018, 06:35:14 pmFor a price 30% higher. You get slightly more, you pay more but it's still a very similar thing.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 06:51:56 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 31, 2018, 06:45:53 pmAren't you lumping attenuation and sampling rate together? I think the DS1054Z has been shown to be usable up to 300-400 MHz and I doubt the Siglents are any worse. Maybe not for all harmonics, but 100 MHz is far from a hard cut-off point.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 07:01:53 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 31, 2018, 06:51:56 pmNo.Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 31, 2018, 06:51:56 pmWith alotof attenuation.Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 31, 2018, 06:51:56 pmThe harmonics of a 100Mhz square wave start at 300Mhz.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 08:41:39 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 31, 2018, 07:01:53 pmyes we know from herehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1613713/#msg1613713and herehttp://www.natureandtech.com/?page_id=8149that rigol got 1/20X attenuation and siglent got 1/3X attenuation at 400MHz (perceptually siglent is better) and i've made some observation at 433MHz sometime ago...full reporthttp://soasystem.com/eng/rig433/index.htmusing my older DS1052E rigol, i assume newer DS1054Z is no better or worse than this. now i know all i have to do is to mentally visualize the signal as 20X bigger.a guy from another thread of the same subject said, he want more resolution hence he picked siglent. but let me ask in this thread the golden question... whats the difference between small triangle? and big triangle? really? at barely 2-3X points per cycle (1GS/s), what resolution you can get other than multiply it by 3 or 20? does it really that matter? go get another scope with 10X times the sample rate if you want resolution at those frequency. not a siglent nor rigol 1GS/s can do the job properly.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 08:42:35 pm
content: Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on August 31, 2018, 12:44:13 pmNearly all you need to know is in this recent thread.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-vs-rigol-ds1054z-advice/msg1755335/#msg1755335Take note the OP already has/had a 54Z and wanted to see if there would be advantages in swapping it for 1104X-E.Study it and most if not all of your questions will be answered.Better still hold off doing anything for a week or two until the OP comes back offering hisrealuse experiences and comparisons of each.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 09:10:03 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on August 31, 2018, 08:41:39 pmto add further, we think with greater magnitude (lesser attenuation) beyond 500MHz is a good thing, but there is a possibility we enter the "we think we know but actually we dont know what we dont know" region (aliasing). a scope with poorly band limited beyond Nyquist frequency and no random decimation/ETS feature may put the scope into false reading, worst with sinx(x) interpolator turned on, i think we discussed it in another thread. ymmv.

author: ultrarunner2018
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 09:29:11 pm
content: Well, I've certainly got enough information to cogitate on. That is what I am going to do, as I continue to learn Python programming for the Raspberry Pi. I am currently studying "Sam's Teach Yourself Python Programming for the Raspberry Pi in 24 hours - 2nd edition". The book starts by teaching the Python (3) language, and then gets into projects that will use the programming.I think I really need to take a step (or two) back from the oscilloscope to finish with the lessons, and start building projects. Once I get to that point, I should have more of an idea of what type of oscilloscope I will need.I have to say that I really like the concept of the Analog Discovery 2. If that turns out to be what I need/want, then I can re-arrange my PC so that it is close to my workbench, making it easier to use a USB based system.I seem to get myself into this kind of situation often: I start asking too many questions before I really know what I want to do.But this whole thread has been a great learning experience for me. I think I have a much better understanding of DSO's now than I did 24 hours ago and many thousands of words read on this forum and others, as well as a few hours of videos watched.And just so I don't forget to do it later on, I want to thank all of you for the valuable information you have given me.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 10:42:33 pm
content: If I were just starting out and didn't have a barn full of equipment or money to buy a bunch of equipment, I would buy the Analog Discovery 2 first thing. It would give me a 2 channel scope, a 2 channel arbitrary waveform generator, 16 bits of digital IO that I can use as a logic analyzer or for discrete IO plus all the software gadgets like Network Analyzer (handy for testing filter and amplifier circuits), FFT, dual voltmeters and dual meaningful power supplies if I use an external wall wart.I really can't say enough about this gadget. It's kind of like a Swiss Army Knife of test equipment. Within its ratings, of course.Add in a laptop or suitable tablet (I often use a Surface Book with external 27" monitor) and you are good to go.That doesn't mean I plan to dump my Tek 485 or DS1054Z scopes but if I am breadboarding I sometimes find the AD2 a better tool. It certainly is when I want to explain filters and Bode' plots to my grandson.There's a bit of a Demo Mode in the Waveforms software. Why not download it and take a look? It's free!

author: ultrarunner2018
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 11:47:02 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on August 31, 2018, 10:42:33 pmThanks for the suggestion. I did dl the waveforms software, but I don't think the demo mode is going to do much for me. I will probably get more from watching some YouTube vids of actual operation.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 03:19:23 am
content: Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on August 31, 2018, 11:47:02 pmLook up a YouTube poster named Tomtektest. He has done a lot on the AD2 and AD1 for that matter. The AD1 is not much different than the AD2 and if you are willing to haunt ebay they can be had for less, sometimes much less. I bought an AD2 new and really like it. I managed to pick up an AD1 for $50 on ebay. $150-$200 is more usual, but good deals can be had if you look hard. At $125 it is still a pretty good deal.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 07:34:37 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on August 31, 2018, 10:42:33 pmDisclaimer: Without any real life experience with AD2.Some time ago I read lot of published documents about this. (not any youtube)One example - this: Analog Discovery 2™ Reference Manual.In any case I recommend reading this manual fully from start page to last page, every word and every image.Now if I think with my lifetime experience and knowledge, even if think material what they offer just free it give amazing amount of valued information about theory and practice.Also it looks like equipment itself is bit fun looking - but it looks quite well designed and manufactured when I have seen some pictures around web and is not at all like some cheap crap junk. This is NOT chinese cheap crap car garage made toybox. It looks bit fun toy (why, this I can not understand)...but all know, do not always look only exterior...."ugly backpack can include good lunches"For example student and hobbyist, if can live with PC on work bench and all this hassle...and under around 30MHz and max 100MSa/s -but it is 14bitand they have also designed clock so that it can somehow serve this resolution needs, and so on...One important and bit sad limit is memory. Default 8k for oscilloscope both channels. Up to 16k if minimize all others who use same memory in fpga.It is still amazing amount of features and things what can do, exercise and study with this small miracle. Even some schematics for understanding better how it works. Used components data... and so on. This is natural because it looks like well known companyAnalogDevicesis least partially behind this.But as they say:"The Analog Discovery 2 was designed for students in typical university-based circuits and electronics classes."Not at all workbench tool for me but still: amazing. Price: Hmm... how much money is spent on studying.But its use is not at all limited only for studying, Hobbyist can also do lot of things with this small miracle.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 07:39:28 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on September 01, 2018, 07:34:37 amIs that a Finnish expression?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 07:42:26 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on August 31, 2018, 10:42:33 pmIf I could go back in time and give myself advice then I probably would, too.(except it wasn't around back then)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 07:51:01 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on August 31, 2018, 09:10:03 pmThose bandwidth tests were done with a nice piece of BNC cable.If you only own the cheap-ass probes supplied with the SDS1104X then you'll get random numbers on screen long before you reach that point.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 08:00:45 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 01, 2018, 07:51:01 amWhen wew talk and characterize and evaluate Oscilloscope BW we do this. Oscilloscope start from input BNC connector. It is point where need be constant level signal. Not even after some coaxial cable if we do real lab tests. It need bit more tools that usual signal generator and coaxial.With SDS1104X-E come 100MHz probes. It is told in every single document by Siglent. If people who want mod 100MHz BW scope to 200MHz do not understand that some tiny edit using some linux commands in system do not change his probes on the table - then I think he do not even need scope. Flashlight and hammer is then enough complex tools for this kind of people.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 08:08:27 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on September 01, 2018, 08:00:45 amYour post has been bookmarked and will be repeated in every thread where wide-eyed Siglent owners are modding their 'scopes to 200Mhz.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 08:31:44 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 01, 2018, 07:51:01 amthat wasnt my point. whatever the respond is, we both agreed that Rigol is heavily attenuated signal compared to siglent at greater than 100-200MHz signal. my point was heavily attenuated signal near Nyquist frequency may be a positive sign (closer to ideal brickwall filter) rather than negative as most newbies thought. ie to avoid you from being fooled by aliasing on modulated signal or harmonics contents greater than 400 - 500MHz, even expert with thick layer of gray matter due to overflown knowledge and measuring with 5 digit price piece of BNC cable on those 300 - 600 dollar piece of equipments. i dont know how to use linux let alone the command well... maybe i just doomed destined to become a carpenter with axe on my back.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 08:53:34 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on September 01, 2018, 08:31:44 amDon't forget the flashlight.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 10:22:29 am
content: there is no more need to hack the rigol, at least in europe Batronix offers all options for free on the 1054Zthe main difference IMHO is that you can buy later a logic analyzer module for the siglentand you can't on the rigol. you must buy a MSO1074 and it's more expensive than the siglent.https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 10:22:58 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on September 01, 2018, 08:31:44 amIn several places (and also related to Siglent mod to 200MHz and even about Siglent official 200MHz model and in many other situations, perhaps some old dsays about DS1000E and also Hantek...More BW is not always good thing or "better".Aliasing is much more wide problem area than just what many users think.Best mod for entry level scopes is if someone modify its front end BW shape better and reject BW specially after -3dB point to more like brick wall. Just for avoid aliasing. Nut also it is important that even less experienced entry level users understand what is aliasing and what it is not. Many times it looks like peoples mix and mess with all these things. Some may admire digiltal filtering after ADC without even think what mess it may be when we take aliasing to account. Most bad trap is that people believe what scope display without wide range knowledge what all errors it may include and without any bugs or this kind of errs. This is one reason why analog scope is very extremely good. There is not more or less visible and recognizable aliasing hiding here and there. It do not aliaze at all, never. From 10s/div to 100ps/div (or what ever) it have full BW without any digital "miracles".If we look modified or unmodified Rigol 4 channel 1000Z or Siglent 4 channel 1000X-E's1 channel in use:R. 1GSa/s Nyquist 500MHz 0.8*Nyq. 400MHzS. 1GSa/s Nyquist 500MHz 0.8*Nyq. 400MHz2 channels in use:R. 500MSa/s Nyquist 250MHz 0.8*Nyq. 200MHzS. 1 GSa/s Nyquist 500MHz 0.8*Nyq. 400MHz3 or 4 channels in use:R. 250MSa/s Nyquist 125MHz 0.8*Nyq. 100MHzS. 500MSa/s Nyquist 250MHz 0.8*Nyq. 200MHzAnd here need note that R. Sin(x)/x do not work right (if still not repaired). It produce extra attenuation and it do not interpolate via true sampled points (it violate Sin(x)/x hardly) and even 0.8*Nyquist is bit too high for it. But still somehow "borderline" acceptrable. Somethink like 0.75*Nyq. is perhaps better for it.And then, Siglent mod. BW is very wide even when -3dB point is where it is but after then it decay quite slowly and due to this it may lead strong aliasing specially if 3 ore 4 channels is in use and input signal include lot of components with high levels over 200MHz eq what ever enough fast edges with high dV/dt, example fast rectangle wave edges or other signals what include these randomly or not.It is better scope if BW is hardware filtered in analog side before ADC so that after 200MHz it decay slope is steep. Much much more steep than 3-6dB/octave. It need "brick wall like" filter what have 180-200MHz corner and -40dB.. or more at fNyq. Rigol need same with 90-100MHz corner. This is very good HW mod if someone develop it without producing any bad effects. Of course even better if user can turn it on and off.Of course in practice probe make some filtering, so situation is not so bad what may think when look scope BW from input BNC. (exept if probe do some funny things in high frequencies)But so or so... it is important that user know his equipments and user understand enough all forms of aliasing (and here I do not mean display screen image aliasing effects at all).If use modified Rigol or Siglent or what ever digital scope. Get enough knowledge about aliasing and not only what some brands salespersons tell about different methods how they scopes do not have aliasing problems... this is not whole truth. Read theory. There is not system what breaks theory. If you think you see it breaks theory then (mostly) you use wrong theory or some trick is fooling you..Oh well my scope have anti alias... so I do not need be careful at all...and when I see miracle it is not alias because my scope have.... yes pilot also have autopilot and this and that system for avoid any bad things... so he do not need care...until "oops". With scopes this oops do not kill, tests can repeat, but technically fooled pilot is extremely danger and there is not retry.Only place where in RTO with its ADC full samplerate currently in use for signal display, can stop all possible aliasing produced bad things is before ADC or rise ADC sampling speed over any input seen freq components. Without any exception. After ADC have produced aliases nothing can do. And there is no way that scope system can recognize what in data stream is alias and what is not. But human can use his knowledge and experience and thinking so that he understand or least suspect that this is perhaps alias..Without enough knowledge alias can fool user. Sometimes lower BW scope is "better" specially for entry level... it do not fool user so easy. Example taking this to count, in some cases Siglent SDS1104-X-E can be "better" than SDS1204X-E.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 11:27:58 am
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on September 01, 2018, 10:22:29 amAll options except the 100Mhz.Quote from: kripton2035 on September 01, 2018, 10:22:29 amAvery expensivelogic analyzer, with limited memory and horrible controls (compared to something PC based).

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 04:17:49 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 01, 2018, 11:27:58 amSiglent with option is not separate LA + separate scope, it is MSO. If you know diffrerence.How about Rigol MSO. Is it expensive and horrible with controls and memory. Or do you use double standards. And if you look Rigol MSO it share Analog channels memory with digital channels. Even more horrible than Siglent.If you can use cheap 10$ LA with Rigol Ds1kZ why also Siglent user can not do same, if saeparate LA with scope is enough. In this case Siglent owner can buy separate cheap LA just as Riglol owner. But if he then think he want MSO... now this Rigol owner buy Rigol MSO scope... Siglent user only buy this option. If we compare Siglent MSO then somehow fair is compare it with Rigol MSO. Consumer price in Germany for Rigol MSO1074Z is around 930 euro and MSO1104Z 950 euro.Siglent MSOSDS1104X-E price is 966 euroBtw, if in Rigol want use 16 digital channels only 2 analog channels can use. Siglent can do simultaneusly all 4 analog channels and all 16 digital channels.Other things just as with DS1000Z vs SDS1004X-EWhich one is expensive?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 04:58:52 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on September 01, 2018, 04:17:49 pmYes.Quote from: rf-loop on September 01, 2018, 04:17:49 pmYes, Rigol is worse.PS: I never mentioned Rigol, I'm not sure why you brought it up.Quote from: rf-loop on September 01, 2018, 04:17:49 pmSiglent is more money but both are expensive compared to a USB/PC option (which can by synched to your 'scope via trigger-out).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 05:07:12 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 01, 2018, 11:27:58 amYou are forgetting that a logic analyser can't show digital signals in realtime. This the added value of having digital channels on an oscilloscope. An MSO is not a logic analyser and vice versa. Don't make the mistake thinking they are equal.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 05:11:42 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 01, 2018, 05:07:12 pmThat's not a hardware limitation:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/looking-for-low-cost-usb-logic-analyzer-with-real-time-view/msg870162/#msg870162

author: Johnboy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 05:50:17 pm
content: I ended up purchasing both a digitalandanalog scope, more because I wanted to better understand 'scopes in general and how they function than from a pressing and imminent need to study signals (although the Extra certainly was a big push). Therefore price was a significant consideration, and this isn't really a vote for Rigol or Siglent (Or GW Instek, or Tektronix, or Keysight). My guess is that stand-alone oscilloscopes will sooner than later go the way of the dodo. The grudging admiration that keeps popping up for the does-everything-but-not-everything-particularly-well Analog Discovery units suggests to me that this sort of PC integration is where the technology is really headed. This is coming from someone who "rides a horse while there is a perfectly good car in the driveway". I'm aware of some irony there.For the OP, I found the following article of interest to me in considering some of the entry level scope limitations and how some people are finding workarounds for them. This one would likely be of interest to a ham, considering that the 'scope in question has been slammed repeatedly for its FFT performance.https://hackaday.com/2015/09/22/a-better-spectrum-analyzer-for-your-rigol-scope/There are also quite a few others floating around this forum as well (often in between epic arguments over the validity of claimed specs for low-end test equipment). I've learned quite a few things from watching these guys lace up their gloves every week or so, or whenever this topic returns in the form of a new thread.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 06:15:03 pm
content: Quote from: Johnboy on September 01, 2018, 05:50:17 pmNo. The problem is that a PC is not well suited as a back-end for an oscilloscope. If you want to build a PC oscilloscope then you end up doing a lot of signal processing in the hardware anyway because you can't get the data fast enough into the PC and have it processed. Using an FPGA and a box with buttons is just easier. Besides that you don't have to deal with all kinds of OS specific problems and different OSses (for starters Linux and Windows but Mac is also necessary).

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 06:31:44 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 01, 2018, 04:58:52 pmBecause you. You tell that Siglent MSO is expensive and some other adjective... in same message you then talk LA and how cheap and nice it is... yes, it IS true but it have nothing to with MSO.Now if you talk that Siglent scope MSO option is expensive... yes it is if you compare Riglol DS1kZz + cheap LA box. Or if you compare Siglent MSO option to simple el cheapo usb LA box.But do you think it is comparable...they are different things... even if noth have same amount of digital channels... then it is bit more fair to compare it with Rigol MSO in around same entry level group specially because they have nearly same price. This is why I rise Rigol MSO to same table with Siglent MSO.Problem. How to explain milk color to born blind. This just start feel same... .

author: Johnboy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 06:38:58 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 01, 2018, 06:15:03 pmWhile I hardly feel qualified to argue that point with you, I suspect that there are likely any number of people currently working on solving this problem as I type, largely because whoever can overcome these obstacles stand to amass a fortune by so doing. The philanthropic quest to make quality test equipment available to almost anyone has intrinsic value even beyond currency, current manufacturing costs notwithstanding for dedicated boxes. How long have manufacturers been integrating USB interfaces into oscilloscopes?I understand that easier/cheaper is currently a barrier to complete integration with PC's, but do you really feel that it will always be so?

author: ultrarunner2018
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 02:57:20 pm
content: One problem I would have with any PC-based scope is that I don't own a laptop or tablet PC (or Mac), so I would be limited to doing all my test/troubleshooting work where my PC is. That's OK most of the time, but there could come a day when I want to do some work in the field.In addition, I must agree that the OS could present problems. Even my SDRPlay sometimes will not run after a Windows update, due to drivers being wiped out during the upgrade.I like the fact that I can do my hamming without my PC (on my Yaesu FT-450D or one of my HT's), and there are never any issues with drivers, other software, or OS upgrades breaking a working setup.Next thing I wanted to mention is aliasing. I wasn't exactly sure what you guys were talking about there. I am familiar with aliasing with images on the screen; especially with games, but not so much with the scope. So I Googled, and found a good YouTube vid on the subject. It was explained very well, and I can understand how a newbie in the field could misinterpret what he is seeing on the scope due to aliasing, but once one has enough experience to understand these things, I don't really see it as a problem.I still like the concept of the Analog Discovery. I could learn a lot from it. The only issue is whether or not I actually have good use for a real oscilloscope. I think that a little time will determine that for me.I wish that I could afford both the scope and the Analog Discovery!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 04:18:20 pm
content: Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on September 02, 2018, 02:57:20 pmA perfectly valid concern.Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on September 02, 2018, 02:57:20 pmThis is the best explanation I've ever seen:

author: ultrarunner2018
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 07:02:04 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2018, 04:18:20 pmI agree 100%!I wish I had teachers like Monty. I would have gotten a lot more out of my education than I did.That video makes me want to buy the Analog Discovery and play around.

author: ultrarunner2018
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 02:51:10 pm
content: I just had a thought:I have been sitting on the fence a while over this o-scope thing, and today had the thought about Trump's new tariffs on Chinese imports.Could these new taxes increase the cost of test equipment from China over the coming months? If so, then I think I'd better make my decision sooner than later to avoid the price increase.

author: SkyMaster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 12:49:56 am
content: Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on September 03, 2018, 02:51:10 pmYou could ask your President by calling him, at the White House, at 202-456-1414.

author: ultrarunner2018
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 12:41:19 pm
content: Quote from: SkyMaster on September 04, 2018, 12:49:56 amI seriously wish that he was not 'my' president. But that's not a subject to engage in here...I nearly moved to Canada when I was a child. Almost bought a house on Washburn Island, near Toronto. I have always had a warm spot in my heart for Canada. I have only been there twice; once to Toronto, and once to Montreal and Quebec... oh, and then there was the one time I was 'unofficially' in Canada, when I got lost on a trip to Jay Peak Vt, took a wrong turn, and ended up at the border. I turned around before getting to Canadian customs, but when I stopped at US customs, the official in the booth told me I was actually in Canada.

author: ultrarunner2018
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 12:51:13 pm
content: I have made my decision.I am going to buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E. The biggest reason I have chosen it over the Rigol DS1054Z is the dual ADC's. There are other technical aspects that I feel are better in the Siglent than the Rigol too, but the dual ADC's with 2x the sample rate on multiple channels is what sold me.I did consider the Analog Discovery 2, but it's relatively high price and limited bandwidth - despite all of the other things it can do, and I would have needed the BNC board and two probes, that would have brought its price up to or higher than the Rigol DS1054Z anyway. In addition, I decided that my main interest in owning a scope is not so much to experiment; after all I said about the Rpi, but it is more the need to investigate real-world scenarios. Finally, having a stand-alone scope is more suitable, since I do not own a tablet or laptop computer, and everything I would be doing with something like the Analog Discovery would have to be based on my desktop (tower) PC.Now, my only decision is whether to buy the scope now, or wait until December, when I have a birthday, and probably some extra cash coming my way.That said, I am not earning any interest in my checking account, so it's really a push. I'm leaning towards buying it now, as it would give me a head-start on my projects.

author: ultrarunner2018
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 12:56:02 pm
content: I've got one more question:Why doesn't TEquipment sell the SDS1104X-E? They have the 1102X, and 1102B (whatever the difference is).I was hoping I could buy the 1104X-E from them, since I have read that they offer a discount to members of this forum...

author: wpwrak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 01:24:05 pm
content: Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on September 04, 2018, 12:56:02 pmAre you sure ? When I search for "Siglent" in their shop, I get the Instek (!) 1102B and the Rigol (!!) 1102E. The Instek is somewhat similar to the Siglent. That Rigol - "BEST SELLER", no less - is some two generations olderAlso note that both have only two channels.QuoteYou may want to send a message to tautech. He always seems to have some discount coupons from Siglent dealers.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 01:58:50 pm
content: Quote from: TurboTom on August 31, 2018, 01:01:12 pmSo what they actually do is recycling the A stock scope to the next dude who thinks he gets a NEWunboxed from the factory. If i buy a new unit it has to be new not B stock else it should be sold as B stock, C stock etc

author: ultrarunner2018
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 02:05:47 pm
content: Quote from: MT on September 04, 2018, 01:58:50 pmIn some states in the U.S. it is illegal to sell anything like that as new. I would Google the subject and find what the telltale signs of 'B' stock are. I am sure that they are easy to spot once you know what you are looking for.Also, buying direct from the factory (Siglent apparently has its own store) should guarantee that this doesn't happen.I wouldn't trust Amazon - especially if it's "sold by <name_of_seller> and fulfilled by Amazon"

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 02:17:16 pm
content: Quote from: MT on September 04, 2018, 01:58:50 pmAnd yet you don't think twice about RMAing it if you don't like it.That's a double standard.You want the 30-day no-questions-asked return policy? You should accept returned goods (unless there's something obviously wrong with them, but the dealer should check that).

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 02:56:50 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 04, 2018, 02:17:16 pmI didnt think about RMA at all, because i want a NEW thing not yours RMA'ed device you have fiddled with thensold as A stock to me, however as i said if its sold as B stock, many distributors do that in other areas.QuoteYou always sees the worst and seeks for the worst and that is your straw-man argument projected onto others Fungus! Redo your behavior!QuoteWhat utter bullshit!No one has to accept B stock gods at A stock price!No i dont want 30 day no-questions-asked return policy, why even distributor include that shit. I want a NEW unboxed from factory that i keep, i havent returned a single unit in my entire life unless i was broke at delivery or under warranty, can you even understand that approach? I doubt!If i buy a NEW car i dont want to have the demo car everybody else have been out and test crashed!If i buy a news paper(fake news ) i want a fresh new that nobody else have read before me!Here for your enlightenment europés largest Mi distributor who have used B stock practices for ages!https://www.thomann.de/gb/search_dir.html?ref=intl&shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ2IiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6IjIiLCJsYW5ndWFnZSI6ImVuIn0%3D&sw=b+stock&smcs=2e1baa_1881

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 03:01:02 pm
content: Quote from: MT on September 04, 2018, 02:56:50 pmWell, there's the problem. They don't offer the choice.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 03:03:26 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 04, 2018, 03:01:02 pmSelling B stock pretending it's A stock at A stock price are illegal in many countries!

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 03:04:27 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 04, 2018, 02:17:16 pmI disagree. Returning a product because you are not happy with it after you get to hold it is a part of the "buying online" process. If it were a brick & mortar seller the buyer may have decided it was not the product for them before purchase. Even B&M stores offer return policies, yet when you purchase a product you have every right to expect a sealed box, unless you opened it yourself. That is just part of doing business and the dealer/manufacture standing behind their product. The cost of selling returned merchandise as B stock is just part of the cost of doing business.

author: bugi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 04:37:47 pm
content: Quote from: Old Printer on September 04, 2018, 03:04:27 pmWhich cost is of course paid by the customers, in the A stock's prices... Except, it seems, most customers are not ready, not even remotely ready, to pay that extra, considering how many look for the absolutely cheapest price, avoiding taxes and customs when possible, etc. That A stock vs. B stock cost isn't necessarily cheap, as, in theory, the device should take a visit to nearest official repair facility or similar (in some rare cases it could be that same shop, especially for official sellers), for an official statement of its new state after the visit at the previous customer. Without proper official statement of the item's status, it is basically a random guess, and the item may be need to be sold at huge discount (which would need to be amortized into the A stock prices).Thus, customers end up buying from the cheapest shop, which hasn't included such "cost of doing business" in the A stock prices, and thus the shop can not afford to not put the returns back into A stock circulation, and sells returns after a cursory check... Yet customers expect to get the top stuff for those bottom pricesI think in EU the laws were changed so that sellers can now ask some cost from customers for returns, but it is up to the sellers to choose whether they do so or not, affected by competition, market pressure etc. (and they have to tell about such costs beforehand). That change allows sellers to move the return related costs towards those that return items, instead of spreading such costs to all customers. But, it is hard to put that into use, when the bottom price competitor might also advertise that returns have no extra cost (and customers do not stop to think why or how that competitor can do so)...Of course, that is where the laws should come in to even the playfield, to make sure all the players play by the same rules, but my experience has been that the laws, more correctly, the law enforcement isn't working that well. Some shops happily do the nasty things without getting caught, or if they get caught, they just explain it was a rare mistake and may get an insignificant penalty. Leading to the situation where those shops that do things right will end up just dying away sooner or later because all the customers flock to that cheap shop, even if its reputation took a small hit (which most didn't notice, many others forgot, and the rest don't care because they can save a bit).Personally, I don't typically mind getting preopened packages as long as the thing contains everything that was supposed to be in there, and the item is of such a type that can not be "abused" or used in unintended ways. Say, a set of screw drivers or a simple calculator, easy to see if they are still ok. But, for example PC components are often "tested" for overclocking potential (and then returned when they don't meet the higher expectations), and cheap scopes hacked for options, yet normal user can not see what sort of state they are in, so for those I would not accept returned items as new.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 05:01:36 pm
content: Accepting returns without penalty is a selling feature of a particular vendor, and the buyer needs to weigh that when deciding where to buy. At least in this country. How is the average user able to tell if something like a scope has been hooked up to a signal/voltage that might damage it? And why should I have to deal with returning a product that has been damaged like that so the dealer can save some money on returns.

author: ultrarunner2018
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 05:31:00 pm
content: For the Siglent SDS1104X-E, I can go directly to Siglent. Their price is the same as everyone else. The only reason I might not buy direct is if they don't have stock, or charge a high shipping fee. I would hope that buying direct from the OEM would guarantee that no "hanky-panky" has been going on with returned goods.I personally will not use a 30-day return policy to "try out" a product. I always spend a lot of time (and over-thinking) researching before making a major (or sometimes even a minor) purchase. The only time I will return an item is if it is defective/damaged, or if it is obvious that the item had been previously opened and used.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 06:27:57 pm
content: Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on September 04, 2018, 05:31:00 pmA good distributor has some demo models to play with but I doubt this is also true for the low end gear.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 07:18:50 pm
content: Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on September 04, 2018, 12:56:02 pmQuote from: wpwrak on September 04, 2018, 01:24:05 pmReceived and replied.In ultrarunner2018's inbox.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 08:17:58 pm
content: Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on September 04, 2018, 05:31:00 pmAs witnessed by this thread!

author: ultrarunner2018
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 10:20:38 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on September 04, 2018, 08:17:58 pmBut in the end, I almost always make a better decision after all the posting and thinking.Oddly though, I believe I spent less time researching and thinking about buying my last automobile - a Subaru Forester XT - back in 2004.It turned out to be a good decision nonetheless; I am still driving the car today!

author: grantb5
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 10:28:07 pm
content: Do the scopes in this category have any protocol analysis? Something simple like hex values for probes on I2C or RS232 or something like that? I heard there was an add-on or software package that allows for this although the name escapes me. I'm in the same boat shopping wise and i do a lost of serial protocol stuff and hate to have to make my own sniffers/snoops/probes all the time. It's getting old.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 10:45:44 pm
content: Quote from: grantb5 on September 04, 2018, 10:28:07 pmMany do, some like the entry level Siglents include it free while other brands offer it as an option. Some that do can be hacked so to have Decode available but not everyone wants to ferk with new equipment to enable decoding.QuoteThere are a few Saleae logic analyzer clones available for little $ but apparently the original SW offers the best results. The disadvantage is they don't offer all the signal info a DSO with inbuilt decoding can.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2018, 11:41:18 pm
content: Quote from: grantb5 on September 04, 2018, 10:28:07 pmYes. It's built into Rigols and Siglents as standard.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 05:56:16 am
content: Quote from: ultrarunner2018 on September 04, 2018, 12:56:02 pmMaybe they're out of stock.Saelig also sells themand gives discounts to EEVblog members. Hurrah for competition.

author: tequipment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2018, 03:43:05 pm
content: Hello. If you want a demo unit to try out let us know and we can send you one.I think we have over 400 5 star reviews on the ds1054s.https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?search=trueWe have a 60 day return policy. The only thing we require is you keep the box and all accessories if you return it we can sell it as open box. It helps a lot for us to have all the accessories.CheersEvan CirelliVice President and Co-FounderTequipment.NET

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2018, 04:32:24 pm
content: Quote from: tequipment on September 06, 2018, 03:43:05 pmHi EvanDo the new DS1054z models you have in stock have all the Options enabled? Including the protocol decoders?(I got mine long ago but some people currently may need to know.)Cheers and thanks for the good work----Al