100% touchscreen nuke control room - improvement or abomination? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: AlbertL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2021, 01:24:29 pm
content: For now it's just a simulator - actually a simulation of a simulator if I understand correctly.Anyway, what I want to know is - can it simulate this?https://youtu.be/nemYBeT4aQY?t=170

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2021, 04:19:41 pm
content: I think there are things (like nuclear plant controls) that should probably remain as physical things. Items such as those 'rotary switches' they were touching, for instance. In an emergency, you might have to switch a whole row of them. With physical things, you can look for the first one, get your hand on it and twist, then with minimal if any observation of the control board can then work quickly along the row throwing each in turn while perhaps monitoring something more important. With a touch panel, you need to look at each to be sure you touch the right spot on the smooth, featureless panel, and then confirm that the control has actually toggled (I admittedly don't know what if any feedback is provided when the controls are actuated, but doubt it'd be as clear as the tactile click you'll feel when turning a physical switch).And lord help you if the panel BSODs on you, or decides it doesn't like your finger today because it's too dry, or too moist, or...It strikes me as an interfacing fail, but that's just me - I'm old school and prefer dedicated knobs and switches to soft controls.-Pat

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2021, 04:37:52 pm
content: Really nice... until the cleaner comes in with his/her trolley and starts cleaning all of the fingerprints off the screens!

author: AlbertL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2021, 04:55:28 pm
content: ...and the night-shift operators discover that holding down the Auxiliary Feedwater Pump #1 Start and Stop buttons together for five seconds opens a PornHub.com window.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2021, 05:04:09 pm
content: All things have failure modes, and for important stuff you need redundancy and work arounds for when that happens. I can imagine doing touchscreens for nuclear plant control, but doubt that it would be implemented in a way that would make me feel good. Dedicated screens for all controls - no nesting or modal presentation of information (having a supervisor panel for observation with nested screens to allow observation of anything is ok, but I don't want an operator to have to page through screens to scram the reactor). Back up systems that are completely independent on failure modes. Different hardware, different software and different OS. And a whole list of other stuff. By the time the dust settled the old steam gauge approach might end up looking pretty cost effective. So if it happens it won't be good enough.

author: AlbertL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2021, 05:33:10 pm
content: One thing that's pretty funny - at 1:24 in the video, there's a screen showing ancient electromechanical protective relays and watthour meters. Imagine programming for a simulation of a technology that's close to 100 years old!

author: elekorsi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2021, 07:22:07 pm
content: Quote from: AlbertL on August 16, 2021, 05:33:10 pmto me it looks like live camera, for the visual confirmation of critical components...

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2021, 08:01:07 pm
content: I consider touchscreens on anything at or above the importance/death potential of an automobile to be an act of gross negligence.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2021, 09:30:15 pm
content: This seems like such an incredibly dumb idea that it's hard to believe anyone would actually try it. While I hate touchscreens, they work ok for non-critical consumer devices but for anything critical they are a total fail.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2021, 09:45:26 pm
content: This comes to my mind:But really, what happens if you accidentally pour coffe on the touchscreen?It is already bad enough that Renault and Teasla think that placing frequently used functions in a car on a touchscreen in a sub menu.Like you have to fiddle with it for 30 seconds and drive into a ditch because your window fogged up, and its in the menu, and not on a button on the dash...

author: duckduck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2021, 10:41:04 pm
content: They should set it all up as an app on iOS so that they could put all of the control screens on an iPad. Then they could swipe, pinch-zoom, and long-press their way through all of the screens. Since it would already be WiFi-enabled at that point, it wouldn't be much more difficult to set it up so that it could be controlled remotely, even from a Starbucks. "Excuse me, the WiFi password written on the chalkboard behind the counter doesn't seem to be working. Can you please look into that on your break?"

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 12:05:23 am
content: AFAIK nobody does car* braking by wire, so why do they think this is a good idea?*Trailers sometimes.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 12:09:06 am
content: I've already said what I thought about touchscreen interfaces.Using them for anything remotely critical is pure nonsense.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 12:18:54 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on August 17, 2021, 12:05:23 amafaiu braking and steering are required to be a mechanical connection

author: AlbertL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 12:43:24 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 16, 2021, 09:45:26 pmIn fact, a lot of nuclear plants have a railing or raised lip at the lower edge of the control consoles for just that reason. Apparently there have been incidents...

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 01:02:07 am
content: I'm not a fan of touch screens in control scenarios.Touch screens remove the tactile cues that are essential to effective motor memory on any form of control. They significantly increase operator workload as the operator can no longer rely on motor memory and must divert conscious attention to ensuring the control surface is in the state they need/want it to be in for the next action.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 01:08:23 am
content: Everything about it can be summed up in one sentence: Mechanical switches are inherently resistant to radiation.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 01:39:35 am
content: Quote from: BradC on August 17, 2021, 01:02:07 amthat's why I'll never want a touch screen remote control, I can feel where the buttons are so I don't have to look.I'm surprised they are legal in cars

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 02:11:50 am
content: Y'all really thought modern control rooms look like the 60's called and want their panel switches back?This is much more like it:

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 02:27:53 am
content: Just when when all the alarms are on, and you are seconds away from performing a Scram, Windows decides that it is dandy time for an update.Hopefully people understand that I am joking.

author: AaronD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 02:45:21 am
content: Provided that:It runs on a dedicated system that is designed from the ground up with rock-solid reliability at the forefront and NOT a silicon valley playground!*It actively monitors the system and automatically accounts for any faults that might occur, both in well-engineered (not silicon valley) software and in hardware.It uses a fuel that is inherently safe anyway, that naturally shuts down when it gets hot instead of thermal runaway.**Then a touchscreen on/off button surrounded by pretty pictures might be just fine as the only human interface.---*Microsoft and Apple are both strictly forbidden, along with several others that share the "devs' playground" mindset.**Yes, those fuels exist; they're just not as energy-dense as what we're using today, and so the middle managers don't like them.

author: AaronD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 02:50:13 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on August 17, 2021, 12:18:54 amActually, I believe that there *are* 100% drive-by-wire cars now. (in addition to the autonomous ones that obviously must be DBW) Again, THIS IS NOT WINDOWS! It's produced by real engineers, not script-kiddies.

author: trophosphere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 03:20:02 am
content: TheventilatorsI use in the hospital are largely touchscreen operated. That being said, I think for specific critical applications if you have to operate something without looking at it and instead rely on tactile feedback then having mechanical controls would probably be better.

author: AlbertL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 03:39:14 am
content: m98 - Where are those plants located - in Germany? When were they built?The most recently-built nuclear plant in the US is Watts Bar Unit 2 in Tennessee, which began service in 2016. But the control room looks like those in much older plants - discrete switches, lights and instruments, with the screens apparently for display only. (photos here:https://www.tva.com/newsroom/watts-bar-2-project/watts-bar-unit-2-timeline.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 04:51:02 am
content: Aren't touchscreens common in modern aircraft? The important controls still use physical knobs and switches, however.

author: Nauris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 08:23:18 am
content: Quote from: AlbertL on August 17, 2021, 03:39:14 amApperently they are1. Nuscale2. Yangjiang Nuclear Power Plant with chinese digital control (2018)3. Akademik Lomonosov the floating russian 2x32 MW power plant build in 20104. Control room for ArcelorMittal Bremen steel plant energy distribution (2019)

author: AlbertL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 12:40:28 pm
content: Because no new nuclear plants are being built in the US, I expect that the Nuclear Regulatory Commission will never be asked to approve a touchscreen control room, simply due to the absence of any requests to do so. Whether theywouldapprove one if requested, and what investigations they would make in the process, is an interesting question. Note that the room in the original post is a simulator of a simulator; the "official" simulator is required to be a precise replica of the operational control room.

author: Ground_Loop
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 04:04:17 pm
content: I spent a few years running nuclear reactors that had no digital controls, not even a seven segment display. In fact, the only integrated circuits I knew of were in the square root calculators for steam flow, but they were analog as well. Anyway, I always though a digital display system would be really helpful, but only for display. The control inputs should remain actual hardware devices. Touch screen inputs for something like changing views would be ok. But I can't imagine adjusting rod height or switching pumps with a screen icon. The big switch is mandatory, especially during a startup.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 04:12:50 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 17, 2021, 04:51:02 amI think the fancier new panels in a lot of GA aircraft have touch-screen capabilities, but there are usually other controls (buttons, knobs) that access all the main functions. And the very most important of those are single-modal.On airliners, I don't think there's much touch screens, but I could be wrong. For example, FMSs, which would be a natural place for a touch screen, almost universally have keypads. So do radio controls, etc.Having flown some GA aircraft with touch-screen panels, I have to say I prefer knobs and buttons, particularly in turb.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 05:10:23 pm
content: Quote from: Nauris on August 17, 2021, 08:23:18 amI do not see anybody touching the screens. Instead on each of the photos keyboards, joysticks, mice and knobs can be seen.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 05:12:42 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on August 17, 2021, 04:12:50 pmI don't think so either. And anyway there are always physicak knobs and buttons for everything. There are touchscreens for non-critical control of the cabin though. (Lighting, media stuff, etc.)The real exception I've seen so far in an "aircraft", if you can call it that, is in SpaceX's Crew Dragon. Oh, and astronauts have to operate that with gloves.https://www.cnet.com/news/nasa-and-spacex-are-about-to-fly-into-space-with-a-touchscreen-demo-2-crew-dragon/

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2021, 03:02:43 am
content: I can't see this being intuitive at all. I hate that cars seem to be going towards touch for everything too.When pressing a button I want to physically touch something, and feel a click or clunk and know that the action went through. Touch screens just don't provide that feedback. And what if you need to put your hand on a lever or button while looking at another screen then activate it. You can't really do that with a touch screen. I don't know enough about day to day operations at a nuclear control room so maybe it's ok but I feel a lot of people working at one would not like this.Touch is also slow, since software has to process everything, while a physical button is physically activating a circuit. Imagine trying to sync two turbines together on the grid using touch.There is going to be latency is displaying the synchroscope output, and then latency in actually processing when you "press" the button. It's also hard to kind of have your finger ready without accidentally touching it.I bet the first time someone accidentally snaps a 2 foot thick turbine shaft they're going to rethink all of this.I never thought of this but can bugs activate touch screens? Going to be a bad day if ever a large bee or other bug gets in that room and lands on the screen lol.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2021, 04:00:49 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on August 18, 2021, 03:02:43 amYeah not a fan either. Tactile interfaces are much safer to interact with, whereas with touch screens you have to shift focus, and they are very easy to screw up by pressing the wrong thing.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2021, 04:13:54 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on August 18, 2021, 03:02:43 amAny reason that wouldn't be automated? At the least, it would be trivial to reject attempts to connect out of sync.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2021, 08:46:49 am
content: At least touchscreens works for some....

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2021, 09:01:17 pm
content: I got to the bottom of this shit, the problem you see is that the switch manufacturers after the fall of the USSR all got bought out by a few companies to keep legacy production up but it did not help the price. They need to keep that going, CNC machines make molds cheaper, cheap molds make bakalite cheaper, so the switches should be cheaper, they are easier to make now. The main factor is probobly dealing with the little brass contacts and rivets and shit (keystone products, aka precision stampings), it is too non standard for any random shop to say 'we are building high reliability switches now". They can build everything but the contacts cheap (small hurdle to overcome). A smart switch designer program would keep these switches around IMO, so you can select pole/throw count, give it physical dimensions, and have it make a switch.Personally for reliability I think its non sense, a nuclear power plant is the last thing you want these in. Everything else is big and heavy and going to be around for many years and nothing gets changed quick.Can you beat a brass shaft reliability with multilayer ceramic liquid crystal LED doped glass ? So long you orient PCB sideways a wafer switch will likely operate if you spray the technician down with a large hose while he is working. touch screen a drop of water makes it act all funny already. My refrigerator is heavy on this stuff, moisture on the bottom drawer that has some kind of fancy recessed touch temperature control shit already made the whole refrigerator act funny (it was effecting the ice machine that is 3 feet away and supposedly controlled by other items!)IMO the whole argument with 'aviation is going this way' is bullshit, aviation only cares about weight. Unless the nuclear reactor is flying there is no reason for it. And last I heard those touch screen modernization to fighters are not as good as originally thought, particularly for EMP survival. Is it going to work any better once its a little shot upYou keep raising impedance on highly important controls till the whole thing works like a electrometer... thats great for not blowing up the neighborhood. And thats just the electrical part. The other part is glass.. do you really trust glass? most stuff that relies on glass has it like either 5 inches thick or reinforces it with wire... its for corporate accounting.. absolute maximum voltage : 0.5V, energy needed to trigger.. 0.3fAA transformer (or chemical battery) connected to a mechanical switch connected to a relay is just not even in the same planet as this stuff in terms of reliabilityHow much I love touch screen controls.. my oven decided to turn the burners on at 10pm once by itself to highest level, greeting me with glowing disks (old IR range,switched to induction now). honeywell air purifier with touch buttons once kept going on highest settings by itself until unplugged and plugged back in. give me my fucking switches back before you kill me with electrostatic sensors ..............For a training system, I don't know. I don't think so. I think if you had a real panel you can do the improtant training of showing people how good switches sound and feel and how partially worn switches sound and feel and what a bad switch is. You train a buncha people on paper (basically you can print out paper, have people on camera watch who touches the paper and have them turn on lights), they will have no idea what a fucked up un maintained panel feels or looks like.. so its not much different then having them read a book. Once you are working that thing the slightest difference in pressure or change in sound will tell you something is off.. not to mention tactile learning is way better.. you can turn the thing off even if you are temporarily blinded (ok this is maybe more of an issue for a pilot that got a chunk of hot fragmentation from a missile delivered into his eyeball).. and you are less likely to make a mistake because you have strong physical assosiates with operating the panel that serve as memory reminders and are conducive to mental refocus in a stressful situation.. i.e. if you know there are 5 switches in a row that require heavy force, and you make it a habit of gracefully sliding a finger over to count the switches (even while you are looking at it, you feel the count), it refocuses you to the procedure you are attempting.IMO a simple test is, get severely drunk, try to run something, the easier it is to run the better the UI is, for safety things. its a decent simulator of bewildering confusing stress that occurs in people sometimes

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2021, 03:40:03 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on August 17, 2021, 12:05:23 amAlfa Romeo Giulia.I'm also in the anti-touchscreen club. After a few months ownership, I can use muscle memory to adjust the HVAC, stereo, headlight angle etc. in our car - without looking away from the road. No way I can do that at 110 km/h with a touch screen.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2021, 03:29:02 pm
content: Abomination? It is a TRAINING simulator! You can't turn newbies loose on a live reactor (see Chernobyl to find out why) so you really need life-like simulators.This one is really visually good, compared to some. A complex system I have some experiece with is the ion accelerator at the National Superconducting Cyclotron Lab at MSU. They went from pretty much a steam gauge console covered with meters and dials to all LCD screens over a period of 20 years or so. But, the graphical representation of what was going on got SO MUCH better, it was a great help to outsiders, and must have been to the operators as well. Then, they remoted everything, so an operator could crawl into the beamlines with a laptop, bring live camera views up on his screen, and operate valves, shutters and viewers while right next to the components involved. I was REALLY impressed!Jon

author: AlbertL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2021, 04:50:18 pm
content: I think these are the kind of high-quality switches used in nuclear control rooms:https://www.electroswitch.com/products/utility-power-switches-relays/manual-standard-instrument-and-control-switches. I'd trust these way more than any touch screen and all the software/firmware behind it.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2021, 05:15:10 pm
content: Another disadvantage is that if manual physicals controls are included as backup controls to make up for unreliable touch screen controls, then when the backup controls are needed, they are less likely to work because they are not regularly used. They will be tested less and the operators will be less familiar with them.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2021, 05:55:56 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on August 18, 2021, 08:46:49 amThere's an obvious collection of manual buttons below the screens for critical/frequently used functions. Each occupant also has controls on their chair armrest for communications and maybe other things. Presumably those screens and touch panels will work in vacuum as well.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2021, 06:01:29 pm
content: Quote from: elekorsi on August 16, 2021, 07:22:07 pmIf you look closely, all the similar instruments are identical images, right down to the visible serial number. Which means the readings on them are not part of the simulation. That whole panel is no more than visual flavor for what the room looks like.