"FU^%ING" Credit-Cards!!! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 12:13:01 pm
content: YES, we all use them now, and 'hope' that it all goes ok when we purchase things every day...My 'missus', (7:30pm here), just got a call from her Bank. (Yes, it's legitimate). It seems she haslost about $3,000 from her account, beginning at about 4.00am this morning. We are generallySO meticulous about on-line transactions. And ONLY use Paypal also, for any transactions.The Bank said that the 1st 'transaction' was from Sydney. (We are in W.A.). And then there were5 other transactions from 'Italy'... immediately afterwards!!?? They presently 'suspect' a 'skimming'device, although we can not understand how? I CAN'T imagine a Supermarket Teller device havinga 'skimming' device. So it's either an 'ATM' or a corrupt online purchase.They PROMISE she will get all her money back!, but I don't know what more we can do to stop thisin the future! 'I'm' generally well educated about so-called 'skimming' devices at an ATM. I 'look' forthem, and think I would know... So it's back to 'on-line' liars/schemers. They should be SHOT!!

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 12:43:43 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on June 26, 2020, 12:13:01 pmOr local restaurants, pretty easy to snap a picture of the card when eating out.This happens to me once every 1-2 years, nothing you can really do about it.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 12:49:53 pm
content: A few years ago, my wife had an attack on her credit card. The bank called, the card was cancelled, and a new card was sent in the mail.A few weeks later, the bank called again and said there had been another attack... on the new credit card...a card which had never been used!Seems the scammers sometimes have better systems than the banks...

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 01:04:03 pm
content: Are you still using magstrip over there?

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 01:05:31 pm
content: What is easier, breaking into 2-3 letter boxes and maybe getting the cards, or cycling slowly around a neighborhood on the footpath near letter boxes with a high power RFID scanner and catching every one with no trace of your action?Never underestimate laziness.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 01:07:41 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on June 26, 2020, 12:13:01 pmThey often are installed inside a device. Say self service at gas pumps.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 01:09:01 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on June 26, 2020, 12:43:43 pmyeh happened to me too, bank noticed suspicious activity closed card, send me a new and refunded the money with no fusshere everything is chip and pin so usually no one gets to look closely at your card, before that I put a piece of tape over the 3 digit checkcode on the back of the card, that makes it a little harder to get all the info needed for most online purchases with a quick look at the card

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 01:11:37 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on June 26, 2020, 01:04:03 pmYes it is used, but all 'our' cards are digitally scanned, via a chip that 'looks' like a phone Sim-Card...

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 01:34:20 pm
content: Given the (understandably) sour attitude, I'm assuming this was a bank debit card? If feasible, in the future, use a credit or charge card, and let them put their cash on the line, not yours. Preferably with a company that is known for good customer service. I have yet had to mark a transaction as fraudulent on my own with American Express, as their fraud detection is so on point that they catch it first. Get a text/email "we blocked this transaction, please call customer service" call, confirm it wasn't me, and new card is shipped out. Mild annoyance of waiting 2 days for a card, instead of weeks of the bank wasting time getting my cash back in my account.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 01:44:12 pm
content: Quote from: ConKbot on June 26, 2020, 01:34:20 pmNo, actually we both only use only Debit Cards now !!!But we can use them like a 'Credit' card...

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 02:30:48 pm
content: I don't know the difference between US and Australian law on cards, but in US the customer protection on credit cards is better than on debit cards, which are governed by separate laws.Seehttps://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/are-credit-cards-safer-than-debit-cards/for a US perspective.

author: andy2000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 02:39:58 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on June 26, 2020, 01:44:12 pmCredit cards are much safer than debit cards because they don't have direct access to your bank account.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 03:56:04 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on June 26, 2020, 01:11:37 pmNo, it is not, the cards still have a mag strip on them but only for backwards compatibility with foreign countries. You can not use the strip in Australia. If you're never going to leave the country, just degauss it or run a strong magnet over it several times and destroy the data stored on the strip.As for the 'looks' like a phone sim-card chip... it's not "digitally scanned", it's a microcontroller with full cryptography support and is able to sign payloads with a private key. As it's signing a payload the key is never exposed and is impossible for a skimmer to easily or quickly clone it. It actually is the identical technology used for sim-cards, the only difference is what's stored on them.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_cardhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_7810https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_7816Online shops could be the culprit but far more likely someone took a picture of it, or you have malware on your PC logging the details, or someone fell for a phishing attack.Quote from: GlennSprigg on June 26, 2020, 01:44:12 pm"Like" is the operative word there, we learned this the hard way when we purchased about $1000 worth of goods from a local bathroom supplier for a renovation, only to find he was bankrupt and used our funds to pay off someone else. We found out when we went to find out what the state of our order was and he was having a fight with another person (builder) who was just walking out with his floor stock to try to recover his lost funds also. Because we paid with the debit card we had no recourse and lost our money. I was understandably angry and went in there with a court order and a police officer who allowed me to take what I wanted up to the estimated value lost, unfortunately in the time it took to get that sorted there was little left.Long story short, never use your debit card for purchases! Use a credit card, just always pay it off the same day you put money on it so you never get hit with interest. Usually, you also get insurance on your credit card for purchases of items like Cameras, Computers, etc. by default. I have used it once to replace a Cannon flash that was broken by Quantas due to rough handling of my luggage.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 04:06:22 pm
content: i have had my debit card done every 3-4 years on average. I think every time it was a petrol station. I now use a credit card given the slightly better protection.Another method is a dodgy employee of a company. Basically it will never not happen, it's how it can be dealt with.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 04:15:16 pm
content: Unfortunetly the mag stripe is here to stayHere in Europe we have been using chip and pin for ages, even now contactless, but still the card number is encoded on the mag stripe. I once asked a banking card systems security guy why this antique is still there, and his response was, "it's the f**king Americans!" The USA insists on using the mag stripe because it would cost retailers more to upgrade to chip and pin, than they lost in fraudulent transactions from cloned cards. And the banks didn't give a crap about card security anyway. He added some states still use paper carbon imprinting - remember those?Worse, cash machines scan the mag stripe, not the chip. You can try this by erasing the mag stripe with a neodimium magnet. It will still work with the chip and contactless too, but won't work in a cash machine. Or a card skimmer.

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 04:27:50 pm
content: Quote from: gnif on June 26, 2020, 03:56:04 pmOf course you still can. Lots of card terminals still have the magstripe reader. It's the second fall back after NFC and chip.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 04:30:34 pm
content: In the UK the rate of fraud recovery is low, the bank just refund you and you never think to tell the police and the bank cannot be arsed either.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 04:33:55 pm
content: Since about 2 years ago it has been almost completely chip readers used here. Took me months to stop automatically swiping the card.I only use my bank debit card at the local grocery and gas stations. At one time I had a transaction limit and daily limit on the debit card. I don't know if that's still in effect. For all other purchases I use American Express.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 04:41:21 pm
content: Quote from: Syntax Error on June 26, 2020, 04:15:16 pmWhat is a cash machine? An ATM? The behaviour will depend on the bank's policies. Some will not dispense cash unless the card has chip (contact , not contactless one) and PIN. It is entirely up to the card issuing bank. Do not blame the overall payments cards, blame your bank. And banks make decisions based on risk/customer convenience. No bank would want to have much negative feedback that their services are hard to use, so they make compromises.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 04:44:24 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on June 26, 2020, 04:33:55 pmYou better keep the limits. Debit account is your live money, having a limit may save you some grief if bad things happen. You should be able to adjust the limits if you want to by calling the bank.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 04:46:10 pm
content: Yes, I had my card done 3 times and got a credit card so that I would not be out of pocket in the short term.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 04:57:36 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on June 26, 2020, 04:46:10 pmThis makes sense, especially if you choose a card that gives rewards or cashback, but you have to be diligent in paying off the balance every month. I for one have a cashback credit card that by end of year accumulates cashback amount sufficient to cover my Christmas shopping/gifts, so i sort of do my Christmas shopping for free.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 04:58:51 pm
content: In the UK a Cash Machine is a generic term for an ATM.Another issue with cards is geo-fencing. Or rather the lack of it. Surley it would not kill the IT guys at your card processor to issue cards that can only be used in a given territory? Or at least, a transaction would not be authorized out of bounds? But then this is rather like asking Microsoft why they never made Windows secure by default

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 05:03:05 pm
content: Quote from: gnif on June 26, 2020, 03:56:04 pmYou usually don't have to pay until the next statement - all interest free. You only get hit with interest after the statement date.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 05:06:53 pm
content: Quote from: Syntax Error on June 26, 2020, 04:15:16 pmI once had a situation where someone had used my credit card details to make a large on-line purchase. I phoned the bank, and they refunded it pretty much instantaneously. Later on, I phoned the merchant to try to figure out how my card details were used. He then told me that the bank had also reimbursed him! - so... we have 3 winners... me, the merchant, and the thief. Who lost? Probably not the bank, since all their money is printed anyway!

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 05:18:58 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 26, 2020, 05:03:05 pmThat's how mine works. You need too be disciplined so as to not spend more than you can pay off, but since I also get cash rewards on my credit card, I buy everything on my card and just pay it off. I also earn interest on my checking account at my credit union, so leaving the money in the entire month until I pay off the credit card gains interest that way. I'm sure the credit card company hates me, I keep earning cash back rewards but I haven't paid a dime in interest or fees since I got the card. But like I said - it takes discipline to live like that, it's too tempting for some to just keep on charging right up to the limit of their card.I've been hit twice on my card, both times very obviously fraud, and I was not responsible for a dime of it. Card was cancelled and a new card was sent to me overnight. In the one case, I made a purchase at a local retail store and something like 20 seconds a purchase was made in another city that is on a good day a 3 hour drive away. It wasn't compromised at that retail store I legitimately made a purchase at, it came from a few days earlier at a restaurant. Just coincidental that the thieves chose that time to test their ill-gotten information.Everywhere around me has readers, and has had them for a while. Maybe in some less populous areas of the US they still have only swipe machines. Even the gas pumps at the station I usually use has chip reader support, although it still can scan the stripe for people that still have cards without the chip. What I have trouble getting used to is the contactless option - my credit card has that, but usually I insert it in the chip reader out of habit. Many places here now have the contactless option as well as the chip. My bank debit card though only has a chip, no contactless option.

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 05:24:48 pm
content: Quote from: Syntax Error on June 26, 2020, 04:58:51 pmThat already exists. Many card issuers require you to notify them of the dates you are away and where, otherwise it's liable to be flagged as fraud. Sometimes it slips up. I know of an incident where a user paid by card on a plane and this was billed in the home country of the carrier which set off the alarm and he couldn't use the card on landing.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 05:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on June 26, 2020, 05:18:58 pmIt is like learning to not eat more than your body needs... a life skill! It can be tough going once heavy debt has been racked up, the interest rates are well into the kind of usury territory where even Jesus would find it hard to forgive them...

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 05:52:18 pm
content: QuoteAnd not only does it avoid fraud,it also stops you using the wrong card on holiday after a pint or 6,that could have been an expensive mistakeIt surprises me the number of people who enter there pin without making any effort to conceal it,why make life easy for scum,also it might be worth hitting random numbers on the keypad after youve entered the pin ,seems scum are using also thermal cameras that can capture the heat signature on the keys and work out the pin from how long the heat takes to fade from individual keys.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 06:18:56 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on June 26, 2020, 05:18:58 pmThey charge the retailers a fee so they make money. They charge more than for debit cards. Several times I have had companies contact me including my own business bank to quote for card handling on my website and it can be as much as 20 quid or more a month and 8%!!!! which is mare than paypal or stripe.So the retailer takes this into account in their pricing, nothing is free and the end customer always pays.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 07:02:07 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on June 26, 2020, 06:18:56 pmYes, you are right, the customer always pays, but not all customers pay the same and you can balance convenience and how much you pay and how.My favorite card lets me get cash advances at common places like grocery stores with NO cash advance fee or any kind of a bank fee. It is treated just as if I bought some bananas. It has literally eliminated the need for me to go to cash machines and play that "which network is my card and this machine on".Yeah, I get a 1% rebate on all purchases and a higher percentage on various places on various months. I once used the card to buy a US Savings Bond AND I got the 1% rebate (absolutely unheard of). I spoke with them at length before the transaction and they couldn't believe it either. Shortly thereafter the Government stopped offering payment for them via a CC.They are very customer-friendly about claims being filed. They offer a best price guarantee thing if you find an item cheaper. I bought a vacuum cleaner from a Dept. Store (that is now bankrupt). The online price was some $20 cheaper and advertised (and not with only good online). I discovered this when I went to buy it in the store. Even the clerks were surprised but couldnotcharge me the lower price. I simply sent the lower price advert in a pdf with a claim form and the CC honored the difference in a credit.I ordered an expensive item through Amazon. Even though I was watching the stops on shipping day, it abruptly got damaged and was never delivered. Amazon wanted ME to cancel the order, which would produce a credit to my account, and then re-order. I said EFUUU, you entered the agreement, you honor it and I am not cancelling crap - give me my item...and I challenged the charge with the CC. They sent me the item which arrived the next day and I took an extra day before withdrawing the claim. For some reason after explaining to several Amazon employees in writing. the fundamentals of contractual agreements, they decided that I deserved a free multi-month Amazon Prime membership which they extended until it hit the if-then statement that said this guy isn't buying one.On a few occasions they have asked for verification on a large purchase - I am fine with that. It rarely happens anymore because I think my patterns are well understood programmatically.I don't carry a balance that incurs a finance charge ever. They don't care. Anybody who invests their money and carries credit card debt needs to ask themselves if their investments pay anywhere near what they are being charged for by the CC company, when they carry a balance. The answer is that they do not have safe investments that pay that much interest, period. The investment that the banks with the credit cards make is to borrow your money at something like 2% and then loan it out to you for something like 8%. Sweet angle if you can get it.I don't use debit cards because my understanding is that each transaction is like writing a check and I worried that in the case of fraud, there would be multiple claims that I would have to make. Not sure I am right about that, but I have no reason to bother with a debit card.The one fraudulent use case I remember was a different card and it basically got reversed using a phone menu and a simple form - that troubled me to realize how rampant the problem has become.Yeah CCs are a racket but with some research, you can get them to work well for you.... *knock* on wood.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 07:11:24 pm
content: Well it's a case of what we want. Who do you think pays for all that insurance that you get on a credit card? The merchants fees that you pay. The retailer would still have a cost to deal with the cash as it needs people to sort it and bank it and that costs money so a small fee on a card is good for them as it's banked and documented without human paid input.Online is often cheaper. A friend saw a coat online that he liked. So he went to the shop to buy one only to find it £30 dearer. The manager assured him there was nothing ho could do about it, so he stood there in the shop, ordered it on his phone and collected a couple of days later. But the shops are a drag on the business, space to rent, people to pay, warehouses are cheap and run at optimum capacity, no one sitting around with nothing to do - ask amazon.....

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 07:21:35 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on June 26, 2020, 07:11:24 pmConcur completely. I would only add that I have purchased at a brick and mortar place and simply offered to pay cash instead of a card if they cut the price - and they will sometimes do that (assuming a large purchase and a savvy clerk - like the owner).

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 07:25:15 pm
content: Well yes if it's a sensible size purchase and it's a small shop they won't put so much value on the time to handle cash, I'm thinking big shops like supermarkets that nationwide will be taking 1'000's per minute if not second. If they employed people to count all that money up and bank it they would find it more expensive that card levies as the bank will charge them to bank the cash as well.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 08:52:21 pm
content: Quote from: DrG on June 26, 2020, 07:21:35 pmThe problem is that most shops are actually operated by sales droids that don't have the initiative or the authority to make a deal. That's another reason the brick and mortar stores are rapidly disappearing.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 09:06:39 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on June 26, 2020, 08:52:21 pmYes to make them cheaper to try to compete with online. a work colleague went to a shop, found a nice buggy he wanted to buy for his granddaughter and then found the same one on amazon significantly cheaper. He told us how he could not understand how they would not accept the price that he decided he wanted to pay which was much less than theirs but not much more than amazon. He put no value on the fact that this shop rent premium retail space so that he can swanny in, pick the thing up, look at it try it out. They employ people on semi decent wages sitting on their backsides potentially but there ready when you want them and he can't see how that is more than £25 to achieve than amazon can who rent the cheapest space out of town where no one will drive to, crammed with goods you can't just go and look at paying packing staff the minimum to pack it with stupid targets to hit.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 10:04:10 pm
content: Ironically perhaps I got fucked over by much respected con artists John Lewis buying a buggy. Got to test it in the store. Ok great. Ordered it to pick up from their collections point same day, got it, got it home and a part was missing. Phoned them up and was told to take it back. So I did. Waited in a queue for 40 minutes, got told that was the last one and that they’d need to ship another one from their warehouse. So three weeks later, no buggy. Phoned up, couldn’t get anyone to actually find out anything useful. Approached bank as it was a debit card transaction, filled in a load of forms and was refunded the money (HSBC). About three months later the money disappeared out of my account again because JL had told HSBC that they had dispatched it and provided evidence (yeah right). This knocked me over my overdraft limit, caused my cards to be blocked, charged £30 fees, couldn’t get a travel card that day, breached contract with the assholes I was working for and had to basically lick assholes not to be kicked on the street immediately.Then there was the DVD player I bought in Argos and had to deal with a little hitler who accused me of breaking a £49 device which had eaten my dvd.So fuck retail in the arse. That’s what you’re paying for. Up front service and nothing to back it up later. Once whatever you’ve been mugged for goes out the door they usually wouldn’t piss on you if you were on fire.Credit cards and amazon get my first hit because genuinely it’s less risky. Last month, Apple TV. Well turns out my TV is shit and doesn’t like HDCP. Turfed it back in a box, Hermes collects it next day, amazon tell me ten minutes after it is collected they have issued a refund and job done. 900 transactions so far. No issues. Even clothes I buy on there. This works because they run low margins and factor return risk into their business unlike retail who knows it’s easy to make service impossible.Trick with CC is get a zero interest card and pay the bill every month. No risk. All benefit. When it hits the interest period bin it and get another one. If you do manage to get yourself screwed with credit card in the UK just stop paying it. Your credit rating is probably already fucked so it’s in their interest to be nice. After 6 months they will bin the interest and come up with an payment plan. On shopping, use distance selling regulations to your advantage.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 12:04:33 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on June 26, 2020, 12:43:43 pmI'm pretty sure they put a stop to all that one chip cards became the norm. I haven't seen an EFTPOS machine in Australia for many, many years where manual entry is possible. Of course if they got the CVC as well, then I guess they could use it online? I obliterate the CVC on my cards once I've committed them to memory.These days, you can't even use a magswipe if the card is chip-enabled unless you first insert the card and it determined there is a problem with the chip or it's unreadable, then it will fall-back to magstripe. If you try to swipe first, it will error out and force you to insert the card. This put an end to the traditional cloning of cards.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 12:16:22 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 27, 2020, 12:04:33 amDon't need a chip reader or a swipe to order online or over the phone.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 12:31:26 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on June 27, 2020, 12:16:22 amVery true, but even then, you would have to hand your card over to someone. This almost never happens in Australia. I eat out quite a lot and I can't recall any time where someone else has physically taken hold of my card. Restaurants and retailers don't want to deal with that kind of liability. Either you use the terminal yourself on your way out or some places even bring a wireless terminal to your table. I can't think of any reason why someone else should be handling your credit or bank card, let alone taking it somewhere out of your sight. In fact, it would be in breach of most (if not all) credit card contracts to give your card to someone else (I don't have a credit card so I can't check the fine print).

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 12:38:46 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 27, 2020, 12:31:26 amHere in the US is completely different, all restaurants take your card behind the counter, scan it and bring it back, completely out of sight often times.At Wings Etc two days ago she had my card for 10 minutes before it was brought back.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 12:50:25 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on June 27, 2020, 12:38:46 amTo be fair, you guys also use cheques. I can count on one hand where I've ever had to write or cash a cheque in my entire life. Get with the times America ;-)I barely even use cash anymore. I can honestly say I don't remember when I last paid for something, let alone handled cash. At a guess, I'd say 6 months or more?

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 12:56:50 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 27, 2020, 12:50:25 amI don't disagree, just the option of not having the number printed on the card would help a bunch.And yeah checks are HORRIBLE, I always get stuck behind somebody slowly writing a check, especially at the farm/utility/hardware stores.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 01:24:53 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on June 27, 2020, 12:38:46 amI would refuse to let the card out of my possession, let alone out of my sight. I would be quite prepared to go for a walk and use the machine myself - and if they had a problem with that, then payment of the bill will be problematic.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 01:27:45 am
content: Quote from: greenpossum on June 26, 2020, 04:27:50 pmA colleague of mine works for a company that configures and services these units, unless it has been specifically requested, there is a valid reason for the request AND the bank authorizes it, by default the mag strip is no longer usable in Aus, even as a fallback. There is also an additional monthly fee and you wave protections as a merchant due to the lower security of the device as the responsibility is now on the merchant more than ever to prevent fraud. Many countries have also completely blocked the use of the mag strip specifically due to fraud and many POS machines today do not even have the ability to read the mag strip.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 01:29:32 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 27, 2020, 12:31:26 amI spoke to a retailer once and their attitude is - If I don't touch the card, then I can't be held responsible for anything that requires holding the card. This approach has made dealing with the COVID-19 situation a non-challenge.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 01:35:41 am
content: Quote from: gnif on June 27, 2020, 01:27:45 amI was in a retailer yesterday and there was a customer that tried to pay via NFC, but there was no response, so they tried the chip reader which had a "chip error" and the terminal told them to swipe - which worked.I didn't know anything about the configuration policies until this ^^^.Today, I have learned something.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 01:38:02 am
content: Use one-time numbers. Certain banks offer that. no chance of stealing that. your real card stays at home in the RF protected safe.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 01:38:32 am
content: I have often wondered if NFC has been exploited like they did to break into cars with a wireless link between two PCs and a SDR. That way NFC could be used internationally.All that said, at the end of the day it could be an exploit against the actual bank. About 2 years ago I was contracted to work on a large deployment for a certain international financial institution where we were building a system to report lost & stolen credit cards (I was on infrastructure). What I saw while working there was abysmal, if it wasn't for bad security practices it was very poorly written software. This system allows the various banks around the world to log in and report and/or check details on credit cards and here is what one of theoutsourced "developers"allowed to hit production.Pesudo CodeCode:static int userID = null;void onLoad(){if (userID == null)doAuth();do stuff...}Code review and testing didn't catch the fact that once a user logged into the system, they could access and use the details of the first user that logged in until the JBoss service was restarted. This is bad, but even worse then one would think as this is a central system to the banks around the globe, so if a user at one logged in, the users at any other competing bank could access and use the system as the other bank.When I explained to the developer the issue (which wasn't my job BTW) and that it feels like he had used a `static` to store the auth token/id, etc... he blamed it on infrastructure and tried to have me and my colleague fired (he was already blaming us actually which is why I investigated). When he provided an updated fixed binary (jar file) he claimed his company spent 10s of hours writing workarounds for our infrastructure and charged accordingly. I decompiled the old and new versions and identified a single change... literally removed `static` from the declaration.This company is still in use by the largest carrier of bank data on the planet to develop credit card applications even after exposing them, and this is one of MANY issues we had with this "development company". They didn't even know what Git or Subversion was, source control for them was a samba share over a VPN to developers in India and they insisted that they have direct access to the production servers and couldn't understand why we wouldn't let them.And add to that, that many ATMs still run Windows NT 4... One company I know of when I was still working there had machines running Windows 98 still!The banks work to make us think they protect our cards/cash, but looking out from the inside I can tell you that their security is abysmal.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 01:40:27 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on June 27, 2020, 12:56:50 amAnd those are the kind of people that invariably wait until they see the total to write in the other information. like date , who the check is for etc ...I have to work very hard not to kick them so hard they bounce of the ceiling and when coming down bounce once more off the floor ... i hate check writers.

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 01:43:20 am
content: Quote from: gnif on June 27, 2020, 01:27:45 amI rarely have to resort to swipe but I haven't come across any that have the swipe blocked. Of course they may simply replace it with a unit that doesn't even have a magstripe reader, making the issue moot. So who knows what the real numbers are, except that they will decline.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 01:58:58 am
content: Quote from: greenpossum on June 27, 2020, 01:43:20 amYes, that could be the case, no way to know without the numbers and I bet that larger corporations like Woolworths and Coles would rather lose a small amount due to mag stripe fraud then the possible loss of sales when it's actually needed.

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 02:01:54 am
content: Quote from: gnif on June 27, 2020, 01:58:58 amAlso note that the magstripe reader is still needed for gift cards and similar that do not have a chip. This is also losing ground to e-gift cards and apps.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 02:03:45 am
content: Quote from: gnif on June 27, 2020, 01:38:32 am

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 02:14:07 am
content: In the US, a credit card holder can only be held liable for a maximum of $50 in fraudulent charges, per the1974 Fair Credit Billing Act($0 if you have reported the card compromised prior to the unauthorized charges. In practice, most card issuers do not hold the cardholder liable for any fraudulent use, as the most they would get would be $50 and a pissed off customer.My wife checks our card transactions EACH Morning via the bank's online portal. Just last month I got gas at a local (Saint Augustine, FL) Sunoco station and within 2 hours there was a $499 charge made at a Sunoco in Philadelphia. How this was done is unknown, but we had to get new cards but did not lose a penny--Sunoco did not seem especially concerned about this and pretty much blew us off, last time I get gas from them.Prior to the FCBA, and because credit card transactions are a loan, courts had held that under the1968 Truth in Lending Actit was the card issuer's responsibility to prevent fraudulent use. The FCBA was technically an amendment to the TILA, which was part of the1968 Consumer Credit Protection Act(a reaction to the direction the lending industry headed in the 60s.There are only modest protections for fraudulent debit card use, just $50 for 2 days after the first use, $500 for 2 to 60 days hence (and good luck on actually getting that). Once 60 days have passed since you received your statement your money is gone.Bottom line, if it's your debit card that's been hacked you're screwed...

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 02:20:26 am
content: Wouldn't a sensible solution simply be to enforce multi-factor authentication on ALL card transactions, whether it be online or using a PIN pad? I know with certain merchants that use Verified by Visa, I'm prompted for a password for online transactions on my bank card, but it's not as common as perhaps it should be.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 02:24:13 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 27, 2020, 02:20:26 amYou would think, but the ease of spending money pinless adds, combined with the cost to replace worn out keypads might be more then they lose in fraud.

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 02:31:29 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 27, 2020, 02:20:26 amIt would slow down transactions at your supermarket or servo unacceptably. However for dubious overseas purchases over the Internet, I have been asked to enter a one time code sent to my mobile number. Some providers also provide apps that can generate appropriate one time codes at time of use.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 02:38:06 am
content: Quote from: cliffyk on June 27, 2020, 02:14:07 amAdditionally, I think that the fraud with a debit card can incur additional problems since the fraudulent uses can reduce your account balance before they are detected, possibly resulting in bounced checks. I wonder how easy that is to rectify.Some of this is coming back to me and reminds me why I dumped whatever debit cards I had.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 02:50:22 am
content: While I understand the position, it seems credit providers are looking towards making things easier...The recent increase of floor limit from $100 to $200 for tap and go payments (as a "concession" to the COVID-19 situation) is one move I don't see reverting. I daresay retailers - especially those with high transaction rates - would agree. I've noticed the speed of service at Bunnings (Yes, I know I spend far too much time there) for tap and go versus other variants of EFTPOS is quite marked.(Oh, snap...)

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 02:54:21 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 27, 2020, 01:40:27 amYou'd kick my 90 year old aunt until she bounced from the ceiling?I hope someone in the queue will help her to her feet again.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 03:00:54 am
content: Bunnings have very high ceilings, especially in the single story stores. Kicking anybody - or anything for that matter - would be quite the achievement.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 03:36:55 am
content: Don't know the full details, but have heard of remote NFC payments being possible, there is enough of a delay period between expected responses that you can record it, and play back remotely, so theif 1 sits up next to where a card is, theif 2 starts a payment, and the reader and the card are essentially linked via TCPIP, however that would not explain the italy thing, think it only gave you about 500km of wiggle room.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 03:51:15 am
content: Quote from: Rerouter on June 27, 2020, 03:36:55 amThese sorts of playback attacks won't work on card payment systems, since the challenge-response changes on each transaction. There are anecdotal reports of NFC "skimming" occurring or at least being possible, however in the real world, we're yet to see it actually occur. Of course it's possible to "read" someones card using an actual legitimate payment terminal through their wallet/pants, however even on legitimate terminals, the anti-collision mechanism kicks in. If more than one card responds, then all are rejected.Companies have taken advantage of these scare campaigns to sell consumers RF blocking wallets and although I acknowledge that there are legitimate uses for such things, for the most part, it's never going to be a problem for most people. I've also seen charlatans who claim to be part of the cyber security community claiming that it's a huge issue (a person who actually calls himself an "eVestigator" is one example -- He is the laughing stock of the cyber security world and most people in the industry know him for all the wrong reasons).

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 04:47:19 am
content: Not playback, literally remote man in the middle. one end a fake card that records the challenge, gets broadcast to the remote unit which play the challenge to the actual card, records the response, then sends it back to the fake card to play to the terminal. due to the cmplexity, I have only heard about it in cases where the card is stationary so they do not have to worry about collisions or the exact timing of the challenge

author: pardo-bsso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 04:20:17 pm
content: Ha so much for security.I can't find it at the moment but Ross Anderson had a lengthy dissertation on ways to attack the pin+chip. This is a small talk at Computerphile:For something I deem risky (like buying online on shops that nobody knows) I use mostly what here is called a 'refill-able' credit card.Meanwhile in this part of the world the banks stopped all international transactions (because a lot of reasons) and I find out when one of our many hosting providers called asking why we didn't pay on time (it was on automatic billing).And to add more fun Wirecard vanishes with part of our funds.(sorry for the derail)

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 07:06:40 pm
content: All the redneck shops seem to accept PayPal these days so I go down that route. Their buyer dispute system is pretty good. I just got £45 back out of digital river and Lenovo who are significantly bigger fish, for sending me a duff laptop battery out just by opening a dispute.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 08:18:35 pm
content: Yea, unless the big boys get way better deals on credit cards than they get with paypal as big boys papal is cheaper than mainstrea crudit card handlers although stripe are even cheaper than paypal.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 09:47:24 pm
content: Quote from: cliffyk on June 27, 2020, 02:14:07 amAll of the banks, even my local credit union, offer text message notifications for any transaction on your accounts. So as soon as a credit card charge is made, I get a text indicating such. Also bank apps can notify you of transactions. It's really great -- now you can see, in real time, what is being charged to an account, and you can call the bank and get them to deal with it before they notify you of possible fraud.QuoteThis is the truth. Imagine the scenario where the bad guy gets your debit number and clears out your checking account right before the mortgage payment hits. Sure, eventually the bank will make you whole, but at the cost of dealing with bounced-check/insufficient-funds fees.ALWAYS use a credit card at point of sale. NEVER a debit card.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 10:25:42 pm
content: Quote from: cliffyk on June 27, 2020, 02:14:07 amThese are critical differences between Credit Card vs Debit Card that many are not aware of. When my teenage kid was old enough to get a "student account" complete with Debit Card plus Credit Card, even the bank staff doing the paper work didn't know that difference in liability protection. I had to explain to my kid this very point that Federal Law limits your liability whereas Debit Card has far fewer protection mandated by law.Relying on protections "Mandated by Law" sounds more comforting than relying on protection driven merely by "good will of the bank".Convenience is a purchase paid for with risk.I use cash whenever I can, and checks (cheques) if I can't use cash; credit card payment as my last resort, and debit card is a never.Funny thing in the USA,Federal Laws also prevents retailer from charging more for use of Credit Card(probably a trade off for making them limit user liability to $50) --but, no law against giving a "cash discount."You can see the result in most car refilling stations, the price per gallon they show on the pump has both "price" and a lower "cash price" displayed side by side. Oh, typically, gas station's own branded credit card get the cash price but other brands (like Bank X visa card or master charge credit card) don't.I saved far more money from cash discounts over the credit card's "x% money back".Here is an article on how Debit Card differs from Credit Card.Forbes Magazine October 2016 "What I Learned When My Husband's Debit Card Was Stolen":https://www.forbes.com/sites/nextavenue/2016/10/30/what-i-learned-when-my-husbands-debit-card-was-stolen

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 01:57:04 am
content: Discounts for cash payments in Australia pretty much don't exist. The only time where you might see this happen is in the building trade where you might get a discount for "cash". Basically it's the operator not declaring the income so no tax is paid on it. That being said, legitimate operators don't generally discount just because you're paying with cash.You also won't see two prices depending on how you pay in retail stores. Sure, in some places you can negotiate a price, but method of payment has nothing to do with it.As I mentioned earlier, I use my debit card for 99.9% of transactions, whether it be thousands of dollars or a $2 coffee. Merchant fees are fairly low so there really isn't an excuse for any business not to accept card (in fact, it would probably drive them out of business). I might use an ATM perhaps once, maybe twice per year and use cash to purchase anything perhaps five times a year, if that. Usually it's for ebay sellers where I'm picking up the items and they prefer cash. I never keep cash on me and I have a bucket of coins at home which I haven't touched in years.That being said, my bank offers me the same protections as most credit card providers do, minus the fees or interest payments. If I make an "odd" payment that gets flagged (such as when I bought my last laptop), the bank is on the phone to me within 10 minutes. The payment is held until I give the OK. Likewise I've had transactions which I have disputed (such as when I don't receive the goods/services I ordered) and the bank has reversed those charges with very little questions asked. I can also use my debit card anywhere a credit card is accepted. I don't use credit cards at all and probably never will. I have no need for them.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 08:27:12 am
content: I like the debit card/phone app bank account I use mainly for overseas travel (won’t advertise it).From the phone app it gives me the following optionsView pinUnlock pin/cvs (use after exceeding 3 tries)Reset contactless limitEnable/disable contactless paymentsEnable/disable online transactionsEnable/disable location based securityEnable/disable swipe paymentsEnable/disable ATM withdrawalsI’ve had this for about 3 years now, I keep everything disabled unless I’m about to use it, then only enable the payment method I’m about to use. Takes seconds, uses fingerprint id on my iPhone to log in, so no typing in codes etc

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 10:33:42 am
content: That’s pretty nice.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 12:07:47 pm
content: The contracts that merchants sign with credit card companies often specifically prohibit giving discounts for using cash... they don't want the costs associated with using a card to be visible to the consumer, for obvious reasons.The US gas station example is about the only one I can think of where this rule is not in place - perhaps the exception that proves the rule, perhaps they were never able to get that industry to conform to their policies from the beginning. Consumers are extremely conscious about the price of gas, every tenth of a penny counts here. I can't think of any other industry that majors on price in the same way...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 12:11:24 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 28, 2020, 12:07:47 pmFuel is a necessity, people will have to buy it. The only incentive to accept card is that it means the motorist caught short will have to pay by card but most customers would come purposefully so the first card company to cave in sets the stage for the others.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 12:52:23 pm
content: Funny thing is with Covid pretty much all retailers that accept tap and go there is no PIN entry any more, even after using the card multiple times. Only exception is every single fuel retailer, PIN required at the forecourt. Only time I needed to enter PIN in the last 3 months was paying for groceries, which included an airtime purchase and a bill payment.Of course the outlier is the good old South African Post office, who, despite having card readers that are both chip and tap capable, as the exact same models are used pretty much everywhere else, and those are capable in other retailers, but SAPO still requires swipe and PIN. Also still has the entire billing system running on Windows XP, mostly on old Intel Core single systems, with 1G of RAM. Not even the thieves who break in will steal them, no value other than the copper inside. The other half, Telkom, also still there on XP, and wonder why they are losing customers by the thousands every week, even though actually cancelling is an exercise in beating your head against a wall covered with broken glass, if you actually want a refund due to you.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 07:34:30 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on June 28, 2020, 12:11:24 pmIt is funny that USA gas stations are the one the posts it side by side - consistently. The following may be outdated since I don't shop in-person often these days, but store has (had?) similar things: discount when you use store's own credit card. Major retailers like Sears (now defunct), Macy's, etc. has (had) discounts when purchased with a store credit card.If it is my first visit to a particular store that I am unfamiliar with, I oftensimply ask: "Do you give a cash discount?"Hey, just a simple question that may save you a few bucks. Except in cases I want to get some protection from credit card purchase (life's lesson living in big cities - always the possibility of getting merely an empty box, or stuff with unknown origin...).With gas stations, I think the main factor is that it is a fairly competitive business. They usually have large elevated display signs that shows their lowest per-gallon price - typically their "regular" (87 octane in most states). So, they use that to attract customers - but once the customer pulled by the pump andif they look- they see the extra 5-cents more (or there-about) it actually costs if you use credit cards. I was fooled by that for a few years when I was in my youth going for the convenience of the credit card.Most youths in my days, their first credit card is either a store credit card or gas-station credit card. So, people get "conditioned" as it was in my case. When I realized I was throwing money away (using generic band card instead of store-branded cards), I started paying cash whenever it represents a saving.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 07:51:05 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on June 28, 2020, 07:34:30 pmHere's a good tip for you: Go into the gas station and buy gift cards for that brand of gas station, using your credit card (and getting 2% or 3% back on that, depending on your credit card). Then, you use the gift card at the pump - which gives you the cash price! Now you are almost 10% better off. Do that over a year, and it adds up to a nice bit of tech gear off eBay, or a dinner, or whatever, with almost zero effort.It is a sad truth that these days, the cash back you get on some credit cards is a better rate than you are able to get in a savings account at the bank...

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 10:40:32 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 28, 2020, 07:51:05 pmI use a fuel card issued by Caltex (Chevron). That automatically gives me 4c per litre off fuel every time I fill up. Yes, that locks me into using their service stations, but I find it convenient as the routes I frequently travel all have Caltex service stations anyway. Plus I use the Australian Government's FuelCheck application on my phone which gives me live pricing for any service station in the state, so I can go to the cheapest one in the area I'm in (or plan ahead if I know I'm going to be somewhere in the coming day or two) in order to get the cheapest price. I generally fill up once the tank reaches 50% so I have a buffer if fuel pricing is at its high point. By using the fuel card and by being smart about when and where I fill up, I'm easily saving upwards of 20c per litre.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 01:05:41 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 28, 2020, 10:40:32 pmYou know, that is really the key...balancing what is convenient with what is the best deal. A CC that I use gives me only a 1% rebate, but on everything. Every couple of months they offer a higher rebate on some merchandise class, but it is painless to activate - no doubt they are keeping email lists updated and so on. My point is that I am comfortable with it and I don't want to go chase a 2% rebate and go through any headaches.I don't bother with those gas deals but I understand doing so if it is convenient.I guess what I am saying is that I really do not enjoy all this financial crap, it is necessary and I try to do a reasonable job of due diligence and then make a decision, only occasionally revisiting the topic. No doubt I have missed out on some deals, but financial stuff is somewhat aggravating because nobody is giving anything away and we all know that.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 01:09:40 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 28, 2020, 07:51:05 pmThat IS indeed a good tip. Too bad I don't drive so much these days. Could really have use it a year or two ago. (I drive much less these days)Don't get me started on the low interest rate of savings account. If I start, this blog will get a disk-full error before I finish.EDIT - To correct a line I was trying to moved but didn't re-paste properly after cutting.

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 07:57:17 am
content: My building society debit card has contactless, chip, and magnetic strip. I was intrigued that they still use the magnetic strip when you go inside the branch. The bank I used to use used chip+pin for teller transactions for years. I don't know what the ATMs here use.I pay cash for virtually everything. Therefore there is virtually no risk of bank-based fraud, at least where normal shops are concerned. I do use my debit card for internet based payments though so there will be some risk there, but I've only ever had one fraudulent transaction to deal with, and the bank managed to stop that.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 11:57:10 am
content: I'm amazed at the number of replies!! (I'm the O.P.).You have all educated myself & my 'missus' well beyond what we knew before, & thank you all!!Especially regarding the use of an actual 'Credit' card, as opposed to a 'Debit'(master) card.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 04:45:05 pm
content: Quote from: DrG on June 29, 2020, 01:05:41 amLast year, I generated almost $2,000 cash back by using the right credit card at the right time - shamelessly maximizing the use of those "special offer" categories, paying everything I can with a credit card (including utilities, taxes, you name it). Once you've thought out the strategy, it really doesn't take any extra time - and the money you get, is totally tax free so actually worth a lot more than if you had earned the same amount at your job!It is a mistake to ignore the small but completely risk free returns of 1% - 5% that you can get by just bothering to bend down and pick the money up!

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 06:27:57 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 29, 2020, 04:45:05 pmTerrific that you can do that. I participate, but not to that extent and, yes, you are right about "bothering to bend down and pick the money up!", but I am not as dedicated as you.You are making me feel a little guilty that I'm not doing more, but I think I have the right balance for me.and that balance includes listening to how other people do it so I might pick up something new and helpful for me.When I look at a CC card, there is a ton of crap to consider. All of them have privacy (or lack of privacy) policies that are updated continually and no normal human being should take the amount of time and study to understand them to the point of deciding which is better - the assumption is that they all suck on that because they make money selling your details.Then there is an annual fee - that is a deal breaker right there, because I am not paying an annual fee to use a CC. Historically, there was a time when certain cards were status symbols in the days of upward mobility and yuppies (Gen Z, millenials and Gen X, please consult a Wiki) and all that crap. It never interested me and I was fine to use a no annual fee card even if the type suggested that I was not at all upwardly mobile. Now days, they are the rule but there was a time when they were an exception.But even then, there could be some incentive connected to the card which might make it worthwhile..e.g., ....If I KNOW that I am going to be engaged in air travel for the year and they are offering a big-ass miles bonus for getting the card, plus miles per dollar....now, I have to calculate the expected price of the tickets and so on - blackout dates - special crap that you don't find out until you spend 20 hours reading the fine print and it's all fine print - it's a headache.Same with the Gas cards - what I am gaining depends on how many gallons I buy and is balanced out with the inconvenience of getting gas at a certain chain - that *might* be worthwhile or it might be a headache - especially if I find myself going out of my way to get gas.It's the same principle with coupons. Sure, I take advantage of Microchip free shipping along with a sale price, WHEN I decided to replace my PICkit 3 with a PICkit 4...and I know that game and will answer a short questionnaire or whatever is needed to get the codes to get the discount - if I have already decided on the purchase.I struggled deciding which first scope to get (well second after a toy scope). Months of reading all the comparisons and inputs on forums and so on. What finally did it was learning,from an EEVBLOG thread, that an OWONHDS1022M-N was nearly 1/2 price from a certain vendor - I pulled the trigger and am happy with the purchase as it fits my level quite well.So, I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying that I strive for a comfortable, non-compulsive, balance that I am happy with. I am also not saying that you are compulsive - that, I would reserve for the coupon nuts who impressively manage to get a week's worth of groceries for $1.48 or something like that. See, I am not going to five different grocery stores to get five different loss leaders - if I had to feed 16 people, maybe I would set up a system for that, but I don't, so I am not.BTW: I don't think the money on a 1% rebate from a CC is tax free. You spend $100, they give you $1, but you already paid the taxes on the $100 (when you earned it) that you spent. They are simply giving you $1 of your money back on which you already paid taxes. Otherwise, it should be declared as income and subject to taxes - no?.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 06:49:36 pm
content: Quote from: DrG on June 29, 2020, 06:27:57 pmYou have a very sensible approach; I am also very loathe to jump through hoops for little reward, but let me give some easy examples: PayPal offers a credit card that gives 2% back on everything. That is hard to beat, and when you add up all your eBay and other online activities over a year - or 5 years, or 10 years - it becomes real money.For example - if your annual spend is $20K, and you can get 2% on that, it is $400 of "free money" every year with zero effort other than opening the account in the first place.Even some cards that have an annual fee can be worth it - for example, a card that gets you access to the airport lounge and free luggage on the flights will pay for itself very quickly and start becoming a net gain (at least pre-Covid19, when it was actually possible to fly, LOL!)I kind of see it as a fun game to get the most out of these things. But I am super disciplined and trust myself never to carry a balance and pay interest - that, and taking a long term view (10 years... 20 years of good habits add up!!) is the key!Also, you are right, the cash back is probably considered "after tax money" all along - maybe better to think of these things as loss avoidance, rather than financial gains!

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 07:10:48 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 29, 2020, 04:45:05 pmI completely agree!Target and Lowe's give a 5% discount on every purchase if you use their house card, so why the hell not?Most of the credit card issuers -- notably not American Express -- have moved away from "points" that you can use to buy stuff to "cash back." Even the standard 1% cash back is better than nothing. And when they have offers "5% cash back for select streaming services" or "hardware stores," it's easy enough to just use their card for that. Oh, Bank XYZ is doing the 5%-streaming thing for three months? Let me spend five minutes every three months changing the billing accounts for the services to that card. Gas station charges are 5% back on this other card? I use that card for gas.One thing to watch out for: some cards won't give you the cash back rebate until there's $50 to give back. That means spending $5,000 on the card for 1% cash back. So those cards don't get used.It should be obvious where this 1% or 5% cash back comes from -- it comes from the fees charged to the merchant by the card issuers and processors. The cost of the fees is built into the retail price. So not taking advantage of the cash back offers is leaving money on the table because you are paying the higher retail price anyway.Obviously each card balance gets paid in full every month. That's easy but if you don't do it the rebates are irrelevant.One more thing. Since retail prices include the card transaction fees, you might as well use the cards instead of cash. But! If you want to help out your local merchants, like the indie coffee shop or restaurant, pay cash. They don't have to pay the 3% transaction fee and that little bit helps. But for the big chains and big box retailers, fuck 'em, Amex all the way! (OK, not Amex because their rewards suck.)(There's an argument that says that the time a merchant spends dealing with cash, and managing theft by employees (!) and going to the bank and all of that "costs more" than the credit card fees. So I asked my friend who co-owns a coffee roasting business that has a retail outlet, and he said, "I'm going to the bank all the time anyway with the checks from the wholesale customers.")

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 07:30:34 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 29, 2020, 06:49:36 pmYeah, some great deals are definitely out there and I did not know about the PP card - I wonder how long it will stay that way (another consideration)?The big point is not carrying a balance - *damn* I don't know why some kind of basic financial strategy is not taught in grade school on up.Approaching it as a fun challenge is worthwhile, but there have been instances when I have really been pissed off about some situations. Case in point is taking change to a bank or counting machine.Once, some years ago, I dutifully wrapped a bunch of change that had been collecting for I don't know how long - in those days, come home, empty your pocket change in a big container and when it is too heavy to carry, or you are too poor to eat, cash in. Now the little sociopath clerk says that "we" [note the royal 'we'] can't take those rolls unless you write your name, address and account number on each one. I hit the roof, I have some 40 rolls of coins here - are you out of your &!@$ing mind?!When I asked why, the response was this gobbldygoop crap mixed with classic weasel words - I could have slugs in there [breaks some/all open and look - it's not like I have 10K of coins here and I do have an account at this bank]..."we" would be violating Federal Reserve regulations if we took them without that required information [what regulation is that, you lying sack of ^%@#]. OK, I am embellishing a bit...Next stop was the next up "manager" who supported the sociopath's positions and invited me to use the coin counting machine located in the adjacent grocery store (I already had checked that out which is why I had wrapped the rolls and waited in line at the bank, you dufus). I ask if the bank owned that machine...no real answer...I asked if he knew how much that machine charged to count money...he said he did not (it was 8.9% I remember it clearly and I told him)...I asked how much interest a CD from this bank paid (something like 5.25% at that time). I then asked him, with a concerned look on my face, if he had ever taking any courses on financial management - at that point, the way forward was clear and I left with my rolls of coins and closed the account - with extreme prejudice, but remaining civil - barely.I found a machine at a grocery store that charged almost as much, but there was no charge if you got your money in gift$$ at the grocery store. I was fine with that.Later, I found a bank that had coin counting machines in all of their branches, for free, to their customers and that was where I opened up an account.I was probably not entirely rational, but I just did not care what it cost to purchase and maintain a counting machine because you are a *&^ing bank! and the idea that a bank would borrow my money at 5% for a year but charge me 9% to count it once, or require me to provide a ridiculous amount of information, time and trouble, to punish me for inconveniencing them, was just not acceptable and I was not about to do that.To this day, whenever I see someone pouring bottles of change into a machine, I think back at that incident and chuckle.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 09:47:58 pm
content: Quote from: DrG on June 29, 2020, 06:27:57 pmGood point -yeah, in the USA, that would not be entirely "free". You are getting money that you paid a tax on already.In the USA, that would depend on what State you reside and what you buy.- Every State has the ownState sales taxrate that you must pay.- In some locales, you have to pay both State andLocal taxwith your purchases.- In some States/Locales, you have to pay the State/Local tax even if you purchased from out of State on-line.- Federal and certain State hasadditional excise taxon certain items (such as liquor, gasoline and cigarettes for example)Take New York City for example (State 4%, City 4.875%). So if your card's spending is all in NYC, you really are getting back only about $91 for the $100 you "got back - but if you purchase in Pennsylvania, they have a rate of 6% (state wide except two counties), so you are getting $94 back.On the other hand, discount is always applied before sales tax.So, if it is a $100 discount, you not only "get back" the $100 immediately (by price reduction), there is also another $8.89 tax (if in NYC) that you didn't have to pay.Duty free shopping, anyone? Airport Duty Free shops requires a boarding pass for an international flight for duty free shopping. But if you are not flying, you may still be able to do it! In the USA's American Native Reserved lands, you don't have to pay federal tax (on item such as cigarettes, that is way more than half the cost of item). A former coworker of mine drives to a near by American Native Reserve to purchase her cigarettes regularly.I don't mind paying tax if the money is put to good use. But you can count on government waste like you can count on the earth spinning. It will happen at least for another few million years.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 10:54:26 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on June 29, 2020, 09:47:58 pmHmmm it is an interesting question.Let's say you buy something in a state that has 6% sales tax that cost $100, so the total charge to your credit card is $106.You will "get back" 1% of that $106 on your next statement.But the state received the full tax owed, and the store received the full $100.So your 1% cash back is essentially paid for by the store, in the form of credit card transaction fees.... which they are deducting from their tax return as a business expense!So, the 1% (or whatever) "cash back" is actually tax free to you, and also to the business that gives it to you. Awesome, right? Printing money right in front of us!

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 11:39:57 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 29, 2020, 10:54:26 pmThe $1.06 in your example is tax free in the sense that it does not have to be reported as income and is not taxed. It is not tax free in the sense that you have already paid taxes on the $106 that you spent, both Federal and State as per the example.The IRS considers it a discount and does not tax the rebate so long as it is a direct result of you spending. If, however, the CC card gives you a $25 referral bonus for signing me up, that $25 is reportable and taxable because it does not result from your spending - it is not considered a discount as is the rebate.That is how I understand it from various sites like this one:https://thepointsguy.com/guide/complete-guide-to-paying-taxes-on-credit-card-rewards/US and IRS only of course.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 11:51:07 pm
content: Quote from: DrG on June 29, 2020, 11:39:57 pmBut the state received their full 6% of the $100 in this example... by rights, they should only have taxed $99, not $100, if it really was a discount...The IRS probably chose to ignore this small error (1% of 6%, or 0.06%)

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 12:06:06 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 29, 2020, 11:51:07 pmI don't think they (the IRS) cares much how the CC describes the rebate, they are just saying that they gave you a discount and they gave it to you as a rebate, so long as they didn't give you more than you spent. IOW, if you didn't pay any sales tax at all, for some reason, they still are not going to make you pay Federal tax on the discount and in turn the State is not going to make you pay State income tax, on the rebate that you got. Of course, the State may make the merchandiser charge a sales tax, or simply charge them the sales tax.As I remember, in the early days of Amazon, it was rare to be charged sales tax if you were not in the state and that got changed or they buckled down on it or something - somewhere in this thread, someone mentioned that.Edit: actually as I am re-reading what you are saying, it seems that the difference is like @Rick Law said - "On the other hand, discount is always applied before sales tax."So if I have a coupon for a bottle of soda for $1, regular price $2, I pay $1 + the 6% sales tax. In the case of the rebate maybe it does not work that way - is the CC giving you 1% of the total amount that you spent or 1% of the total amount NOT including the sales tax?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 12:17:22 am
content: Quote from: DrG on June 30, 2020, 12:06:06 amThe total amount you spent. So there is an issue (small!) with the maths here.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 12:25:14 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 30, 2020, 12:17:22 amIf it is 1% of the total amount (which includes the sales tax) that you spent there is no problem for Income tax because that was taken on the $100 base and the $6 that went to for the sales tax.It is accurately described as a 1% rebate on the total amount that you spend. It maynotbe the same as a 1% discount, because that would mean that you pay $99 + sales tax on $99. But the CC card is not describing it as a 1% discount. Not sure where the issue is, but I think I understand what you are saying. Maybe the way the IRS describes it as a discount is a little odd?

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 03:18:22 am
content: Disclaimer first: this is my personal opinion and from my experience only. It is not from a tax professional. I am not a lawyer, not a CPA, and not a licensed tax professional.With that out of the way, this is how I understand it (from doing my own tax for years which means having the read those Form XXXX instructions from IRS and State).Tax is calculated based on the value of the transaction. Discount reduces the value of transaction.You purchased a car at the dealer. You managed to negotiate the price down to $40,000. Tax is on the value of the transaction. The transaction is $40,000. That's the amount that is taxed.The price the dealer wanted never comes into play. He might have wanted to sell it for $100,000. That means you save $60,000. But, that $60,000 was merely someone's desire, and did not become part of the transaction -- hence it is not included in the transaction value to be taxed. He might have wanted to sell it for $200,000. You might have "saved" $160,000. It is irrelevant. It is not part of the actual transaction.One time a decades ago, I failed to get the car dealer to lower it further. So, I asked for another $1000 for my trade-in car. The sales clerk throw it back in my face and said then this new car is going to go up $1000. My mind clicked and I said "fine" then I ask for another thousand more for my trade in, and the new car went up another $1000; I just told him I want to feel good that I trade-in that car at a very good price, and ask for more for my trade-in again. In that State and at that time, trade-in applies as directly subtracting from the transaction. Every extra $1000 my trade-in is worth is $1000 less in the new car. That is $1000 less value in the transaction, and that is $1000 less I have to pay tax in. Within reason of course, and staying in good faith with complying with the law of course. I really would not want to stand before a tax auditor trying to justify that my 10 year old junk is worth 90% of when it was a new car. Being charge with tax fraud would not be fun, so, within reason only.Applying the discount first gets us to the actual transaction value. That is why discount is always applied before tax.Rebate from your seller (or the Credit Card company whom processed the transaction on behalf of the seller) is a post-facto discount.(Exception is healthcare insurance rebates... That one is a rat's nest which may be governed by different State laws. In some States, the resurrected the awful Obama Care mandates and penalty. Health Insurance is a mess these days)When they promise you a rebate of 1%, they based that 1% on the total post-tax amount. Their lazy math and their vague attempt to exaggerate the value of their rebate.Only folks at this forum wouldhave the minds to think about pre- verses post- tax implications. Most others would just think... ah 2% back = 2% less = 2% discount.They could have based that on a pre-tax basis, but they would need to do a lot of work. Excise Tax Local, excise tax State, Federal excise tax, Sales tax State, Sales tax local, ahh... a mess.In either case: the value of the transaction has been taxed, so neither IRS or State Treasury has a bone to pick with you. The tax duty was satisfied.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 12:22:36 pm
content: Because the credit card gives you 1% back of the full payment including taxes etc., it is actually equivalent to getting slightly more than a 1% discount on the price of the original item.E.g. take our $100 item, with 6% tax ($6), you pay $106.Now, the credit card company gives you $1.06 back (1% of the $106)So your discount on the $100 item is actually 1.06%, not just 1%!

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 11:35:54 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 30, 2020, 12:22:36 pmYour math is right, but your last line (conclusion) is questionable: depends on perspective. Denominator at that point is no longer $100 but $106 because $106 is your payment. So you are still at 1% discount of your payment.In any event, when the percentage discount is the same percentage as money back, apply now or later doesn't matter. It will cost you the exact same amount. Some simple algebra will prove that:Money back case, your total cost is:(N*1.06) - (N*1.06)*0.01; // the second term is the money back.Percent discount case, your total cost is:(N*(1-0.01))*1.06; // (N*(1-0.01)) is post-discount amount.Both evaluate to N*1.06*0.99, you spend exactly the same.The difference is merely spending extra and get the extra back, verses not spending the extra and keeping it in your pocket.However, the comparison is if one gets a higher saving with cash-discount vs % money back.Earlier you replied that you get a 4 cents discount per litre of gas.- If it is $1 per litre and you get 4 cents discount, that is a 4% discount. 4x the 1% money back.- If it is $5 per litre and you get 4 cents discount, that is a mere 0.8% discount. 1% money back would be a better deal.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 12:41:12 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on June 30, 2020, 11:35:54 pmFrom a "simple buyer" perspective, buyer is getting a straightforward 1% discount on the total payment.From the state tax authority perspective, no discount at all was given on the $6 sales tax - the state tax authority collects the full $6.Now the important bit: no part of the 1% cash back that buyer received came from the $6 paid in tax. The 1% cash back was entirely funded from proceeds from the $100 part of the transaction that seller controls.From seller's perspective, therefore, the cash back is 1.06% (and seller actually has to pay that, it is included in the merchant fees charged by the credit card company).The Buyer can actually choose to look at the transaction two ways:(1) I got 1% cash back on the whole transaction including tax, or(2) I got 1.06% cash back on the item pre tax price, and paid 6% sales tax as is usual in my stateNow comes the crunch:If buyer can deduct the sales tax somewhere (for example, buyer runs a small business) then the 1.06% is actually the correct discount received!QuoteThat may have been someone else's post - In this case, I would say you should double dip! I.e. buy gas station gift cards with your credit card and get immediate cash back on that transaction. Then use the gift card at the pumps and enjoy discounted gas as well, since the gas station gift card counts as cash when buying the gas! I usually manage 5% - 10% discount overall, by this method.Doing all these little things adds up to thousands each year. Which I then spend on wine, women, and song!

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 02:59:14 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 01, 2020, 12:41:12 amI agree with all your points in that reply. I particularly like your "Now comes the crunch"... I totally missed deductions angle. It may be fun to research that sometime.As to the second point quoted. "... adds up to thousands each year..." Good going! I'm impressed.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 03:55:23 pm
content: Just remember that if you convert these dollar percentages into decibels, you must use the factor 10, since money is power.

author: duckduck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 12:37:00 am
content: Quote from: Syntax Error on June 26, 2020, 04:58:51 pmI sure wish that card issuers / banks would join the modern world and make MFA (Multi-Factor Authentication) available. You stick your card in the payment terminal thing at the grocery store and your mobile phone prompts you "Authorize payment of $83.53 to Fat Goose Groceries and Wine? Authorize / Decline / Report Fraud". Yes, I understand there are problems with implementing that but use of machine learning could auto-approve your nightly pint at the pub, weekly laundry at your dry-cleaners, but then prompt you when you buy airline tickets or jewelry.It might take an upgrade to the payment terminals but they could use OTP (One Time Password), like those RSA fobs that display a different numeric code every 60 seconds, or the Google Authenticator app on your phone. You put your credit card in the payment terminal, click OK on the terminal, and then the terminal prompts you for the code from your phone app, which could be done via scanning a 2D barcode on your phone like your boarding pass when you fly. That would prevent problems related to "I can't get a cell signal at the checkout".MFA would stop remote credit card theftcoldbecause without the cardholder's phone, the credit card would be useless. Card issuers / banks know all this but they've run the numbers and tens of thousands of transactions from stolen credit cards every year (and the heartburn that it creates for the victims) is cheaper for them. Now you've got me ranting about the banks."Why is it that everyone that knows how this country should be run is cutting hair or driving a cab?"

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 12:57:59 am
content: Quote from: duckduck on July 02, 2020, 12:37:00 amOr join the even more modern world and use a phone app together with NFC, obviating the card.Saw a US project for sanitising the number pad on card terminals with UV. Around here contactless payment has been around for a while and boosted by C-19.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 02:07:29 am
content: QuoteAnd if dont have a mobile phone? Thats the problem with the system recently introduced in the uk,some banks do offer an email option,but not all.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 04:35:56 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on July 02, 2020, 02:07:29 amKeep my coffee warm, I will run home to reply to my email to authorize this payment. Really, I will be right back because I really need my caffeine fix. Really ... I'll be back...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 08:14:22 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on July 02, 2020, 02:07:29 amWith Santander here. If you make a big CC purchase you have to auth it with your phone. Works nicely. They do SMS as well but having 2FA for transactions is a damn good thing.In 2020 if you don’t own a phone then you’re running a self inflicted social disadvantage IMHO

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 12:16:34 pm
content: I prefer SMS over an app, in all honesty. I can't guarantee what phone will be at the end of my phone number at all times, but Icanguarantee it will be able to do SMS!

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 01:03:34 am
content: BTW: I was recently informed of a new rebate opportunity on a card that I do not use very often.Code:Use your card to earn 10% back as a statement credit, up to $25, through 09/30/2020 on eligible purchases¹ you make at:Restaurants: including takeout meals and curbside pickup ordersGrocery stores: including curbside pickup and online deliveryGas StationsDrugstores: including prescription orders made onlineMass Transit & Commuter Transportation VendorsA 10% rebate! Now, it maxs it out at $25, but I think it qualifies as a, 'just reach down and pick it up'

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 04:41:54 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on July 02, 2020, 08:14:22 amMy wife and I have tried to explain 2FA to my mother-in-law several times, and she still doesn't get it. And it's not because she's stupid. She's had a smartphone for several years, uses an iPad all the time and knows how those all work, but 2FA for an 80-year-old is baffling. And I can understand that.I just wish there was a better way of authenticating transactions.It's a conundrum to be sure. But to call it a "self-inflicted social disadvantage" says more about you than about her.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 04:54:18 pm
content: Quote from: duckduck on July 02, 2020, 12:37:00 amThere is the rub, right there.And why aren't those upgrades happening? Because it costs money. New terminals aren't free. I bet the terminal vendors charge for upgrades, too. So businesses are loathe to spend the money on new terminals, and they've done the math and are willing to absorb the cost of fraud.As of a couple of years ago, all POS card terminals in the US were supposed to have chip readers. The banks would no longer compensate vendors if systems were compromised by a magstripe reader terminal. Yet many businesses still don't have chip readers. (And those that do? NONE require a PIN, so the system is as insecure as a stripe.) And why? They did the math. Say a Bad Guy comes into the hardware store with a cloned credit card and he spends $1,000. Sure, that sounds like a lot of money, but how much does it cost to replace the entire point-of-sale system in that store? Likely a whole lot more than $1,000. Now of course the fraudulent charges will be uncovered soon enough and the card canceled. The true owner of the card doesn't have to worry as the charges will be removed from the account. But the store that sold $1,000 worth of goods? If the terminals were magstripe only, they're outta luck. But as Cosmo Kramer tells Jerry Seinfeld, "they'll just write it off!"I've noticed that the local taquerias and coffee shops are the first to add more secure POS terminals and allow Apple Pay and other NFC pay systems. But for them it's only a handful of terminals, and sometimes the terminal vendors provide the hardware for free because they charge 3% on each transaction.The big stores are looking at millions of dollars to roll out new POS systems across dozens or hundreds of stores, and they balk. An exception: Target was famously hacked and all of the data for their in-house credit cards were stolen. They rolled out chip-based POS terminals in record time, and then to get customers to use their in-house card again the cards were all re-issued and when you use it, you get a 5% discount.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 04:55:19 pm
content: Quote from: greenpossum on July 02, 2020, 12:57:59 amSome of the contactless payment terminals here still require the customer to tap "OK" on a screen, so it's not as contactless as one would like.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 07:56:47 pm
content: With on-line purchases, your card (fake or not) is never present. Couple that with credit card companies' own on-line log-in accounts that can manage profile, things get easy to hack -- even if every card is equipped with a chip.I actually don't have a problem with mobile phone validation. In fact, I rather like that.I have a problem with society's over reliance on on-line stuff, from the damn HVAC thermostat that wants to get on-line, to the damn washer/dryer that wants to get on-line. Hack, if you are home, it does you well to get off the couch to just check. And if you are out, what's the point of knowing your wash is done anyway?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 08:15:53 pm
content: One simple thing credit\debit card company's could do to cut down on online purchase fraud is only deliver to the address the card is registered to.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 08:37:42 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on July 03, 2020, 07:56:47 pmFor on-line card not present transactions you need to enter the CVC/CVV security code printed on the back of the card. So in general you still have to have a physical card. Chip plays no role in online transactions. You can't "hack" a CVC code, you need to have a copy of it (unless you know the issuing bank's encryption keys, a probability of which is near zero). Some companies such as Digikey or Amazon store the complete set of information about the customer's credit cards and that allows them to "offer better service" to the customers by not requiring re-enter card information every time a purchase is made. But that storage is The weak link and this is what is typically hacked, not the card itself.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 09:10:15 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on July 03, 2020, 08:37:42 pmAs you pointed out every time you ordered on line, your security code is exposed. They don't have to hack it from you. They hack it from companies. Hackers are no dummies, why would they hack your machine and get one or two cards that you have, or hack a company that might have tens of millions of card info stored.Like walking on the side walk, you could get squashed like a bug by a drunk driver any day, any moment. When I go out to walk as exercise, I get certain health benefits, and I am exposing myself to more risk.We have to accept, security with credit cards, NFC payment, whatever, are never perfect. The less we are exposed, the better. Benefits must be commensurate with reward. Every time I pay with a credit card, I get 1% back or whatever, but also exposed myself to a certain risk. Risk and loss is all around us, and we are always paying for it one way or another. One just has to think that way, or one is exposing oneself to risk and/or extra cost without proper consideration. It is the lack of risk/cost consideration that is feeding the growth of the fraud/hack/data-theft industries.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 09:12:11 pm
content: After a run in with Google, my experience now is that two factor security which relies on email or phones (or security questions) is less secure.

author: AlexJackson
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 12:26:42 am
content: A credit union I had years ago completely screwed me over for about 3 months. Had a card through them I used for a handful of purchases over the years. Suddenly one morning I wake up and see I'm -$3500 in 5 or so transactions. Called the bank and they were useless over the phone so I had to physically show up. Found out that my card was used all over the world in a 2 hour period and to prevent any issues with my bank, I had to "come up with the funds to cover the overage".So when I'm 15 cents short (though my savings could cover it with their so-called overdraft protection), they deny the charge completely and still stick me with a $37 'insufficient fee', yet people who are very obviously not me can rack up several thousand $$$$ purchases over the course of a couple hours and the transaction sticks? Before they would even consider doing a fraud investigation they wanted me to get a police report (from Spain, Italy, Russia, India, & France) as that's where my card was used. Long story short after fighting them for nearly 3 months it got straightened out and they still wanted me to cover the 5 insufficient funds fees. That took another couple weeks for me to fight. That should've been my clue to change credit unions though I was with them for well over close to 2 decades.Fast forward to my current bank, they call me if there's a questionable charge and ask for my next step, I'll have a new card in 6 business days and no 70 point increase on my blood pressure.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 02:18:13 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on July 03, 2020, 09:12:11 pmSounds ominous, what happened?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 10:34:19 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 04, 2020, 02:18:13 amGoogle decided to require me to answer the security questions on an account which was old enough not to have them, locking me out of my own account. That account was my "secure" account and used to secure many other systems, which I was then locked out of.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 11:27:33 am
content: Note, from the O.P.Her bank had contacted her the moment they suspected something wrong, after hours. Some may think itis an intrusion of privacy, but they said they immediately noticed transactions out of the 'norm'. Her normal'purchases' were for embroidery related things, from either local or 'specific' O.S. companies. I don'tMINDtheir level of 'tracking', otherwise we would put money in spaghetti tins and bury them n the back-yard!Old card immediately blocked/cancelled, new card sent, to date 1/2 the money has been transferred backinto her account, and the restshortly forthcoming. The banks team has tracked all the transfers, and isworking to trace all those involved without limits/boundaries, for THEIR good & for other customers.Yes... We understand now that an actual 'Credit-Card' as opposed to a 'Debit-MasterCard' etc, means thatsuch 'perpetrators' are dealing with the 'Banks' money, instead ofours... however we DON'T all have suchoptions. As non-working pensioners, we do NOT have certain levels of 'Credit' available/open to us, and tobe honest, we don't want that any more, either! We both 'owe' nothing in life now, and would never wantto go back to 'Owing many thousands' on various cards, ever again! Companies want/need to see yourhistory though, and both of us 'owing nothing' for many years doesNOT give us 'Credit' history!!For instance, simply wanting a Rental-Car for Local/OverSeas... SOME don't like our (lack-of!) history?We can make FULL payments, and deposits etc, but they almost WANT someone who is a 'Risk', becausethey have historical names/addresses to follow up on if/when there is a problem...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 12:37:25 pm
content: Just some info that may be helpful for current or prospective iPhone users:- According to the conversation I had with the director of security of a state credit union (a type of bank in USA), Apple Pay (which is NFC) is far more secure than the actual cards it is a proxy for, better than the encryption in the chips on the card (both electrical and NFC), never mind the magstripe. It requires biometric authentication for each transaction.Depending on the credit card issuer, when a card is configured for Apple Pay, you will get notifications for every transaction on the card, even transactions not performed with Apple Pay. (My American AmEx is like that. My Swiss MasterCard only gets notifications for its own Apple Pay transactions.)- If you live in USA, the Apple Card credit card (aside from having pretty good conditions and a superb user interface) lets you order a physical card*, which is locked by default, and can be unlocked and locked at any time via the iPhone. (The physical card has no expiration date, and has no card number or CVV printed on it, either. And you can replace it, for free, any time you want, if it's been compromised, lost, or stolen.) Apple Card also maintains a separate set of info (card number, expiration, CVV) for use online, which can be changed at any time on the phone app.*The card, by the way, is beautifully made out of titanium. Of course, like AmEx's Centurion card, too, this means you can't easily destroy it when you need to cut up a card! So you can mail it back to Apple for recycling.(I don't know anything about Samsung Pay other than that it exists, so don't take this as any kind of comparison or dissing of it. Just passing on what I know about Apple's offering.)

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 01:25:08 pm
content: Yep. I think I use Apple Pay for everything now. I actually forgot my PIN number the other day when I went to use my debit card for a car parking machine that the NFC had been vandalised on

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 03:02:31 pm
content: Again, from a US perspective: In the US it is much easier to rent a car or check into a hotel with a credit card than with a debit card.Now retired without salary income, we still have an excellent credit history, although we have never carried a balance on our credit cards, with only (now paid) house mortgage and car loans on our history, and we have never had a debit card. Our ATM cards on our normal bank are separate from our credit cards. We have had occasional fraudulent charges over the last 40 years, but the credit card companies (Visa and Amex) have been very efficient at flagging, stopping, and refunding them. The frustrating thing is that, by policy, they never tell us what happened to the perpetrators.I don't believe the credit bureaus' propaganda about how they rate accounts: the month after we paid off our last car loan (on original schedule), our high credit score actually went down (still high). The car loan was our only outstanding balance.In the US, I would not recommend a debit card to anyone who can obtain a credit card.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 06:04:09 pm
content: Why does it surprise you that your score went down after paying off your loan? That’s exactly what the formula would predict.With my Amex, I can see my credit score at any time (it’s in the upper half of the “very good” bracket), and it tells me the reason my score isn’t higher is because of having too few accounts. (I don’t have any delinquent or late accounts and never have.) Here’s the screenshot of the info:

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 06:17:12 pm
content: Yes, the actual agreement states that. However, in propaganda about credit scores, I have seen statements (obviously not true) that paying off a debt does not decrease ones score.

author: WattsThat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 08:50:28 pm
content: What was your largest purchase(s) with a credit card that you were able to get a 1 or 2% rebate on?For me, it was our daughters college tuition and housing bill over a period of four years. The school in New York City preferred credit card payments, offered no cash/check discounts so everything went onto my no annual fee business Visa card that paid a 2% flat rebate. I received the rebates in the form of a check payable to me, not the business. It was the easiest money I ever made. While I don’t miss the payments, I miss the mad money that funded my hobbies.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 09:36:30 pm
content: Quote from: WattsThat on July 04, 2020, 08:50:28 pmI put the down payment for a car on the Amex. I think I put $5,000 on it. For some reason, the dealer wouldn’t take the card for the entire car cost.Yes, the card bill was paid off in full when due. I could’ve written a check. I wanted the points.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2020, 03:48:02 am
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on July 04, 2020, 11:27:33 amThere's no point fighting the system - if it makes life easier for you when you rent a car or go travelling in general, just get a credit card... your bank will usually give you one even with non-stellar history, with a low limit. Then, as you own it for a year or two, they will keep increasing the limit as they see you can handle it. Credit cards can have many advantages like adding extra warranty time to stuff you purchase with it, free travel insurance, even free damage insurance for renting cars, etc. etc., which all add up to significant savings through the year.The only rule you have to follow is: Pay the bl**dy thing off promptly each month. Set up auto-pay with your bank so you don't even have to think about it.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 03:32:37 pm
content: I saw someone post that in the USA restaurants take your card in the back, but they apparently are not eating where I am. I've been using those Zoisk terminals that are on the tables for a few years now. Red Robin was one of the earliest I can recall to use them, Applebees, Olive Garden, Red Lobster, etc are ones I've used them at so the credit card stays in your hand.Had a strange experience just before COVID with Kroger refusing to fall back on mag strip. My chip card stopped working at (only) Kroger for some reason, it would work at other stores. The Kroger cashiers would tell me to try three times and then it should fail back to reading the mag strip but it would still say 'use chip'. They finally escalated to the manager on duty who said if your card has a chip its a national law that they can't use the strip (its not, he made that up). But he then refused to take my card and I even spotted one of their security people following me out to the parking lot apparently thinking I was trying to fraud them.My point it we are not as backwards as some think as there are plenty of places that don't take your card to the back and plenty of places that won't accept magstrip.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 03:45:49 pm
content: Mag strip transactions have different chargeback policies as they are higher risk from cloning and stolen cards. The merchant will quite happily sell a magstrip based POS device but if you swipe it the entire transaction risk is on the retailer. Some food outfits probably accept this risk as the other alternative is you walking without even bothering so YMMV. If 1 in 10 end up being charged back they're in the black still.A lot of retailers do not understand this really either. Also a lot of retailers have broken ass pieces of shit for POS machines as well because they get charged by the merchant for repairs or replacement so trade a repair/replacement against taking on massive risk. Idiots.Here in UK it's chip+pin or contactless or fuck off now. Thank goodness. So much easier.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 04:06:55 pm
content: That seems to be the policy Kroger was taking, though they forgot to communicate it down to their cashiers. What happens though when the chip gets borked like mine?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 04:09:41 pm
content: Always carry a backup card or cash is about the only option. In my case I primarily use contactless / Apple Pay on my phone which has a surrogate for my main debit card. Then there's the main debit card and a credit card. I don't carry cash these days.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 05:55:01 pm
content: Kroger doesn't have contactless terminals yet.They did implement their own 'Kroger Pay' app which does a contactless by displaying a code their upc scanner can scan. So I set that up later in case I have the issue there again but they don't have any other good options.