Phonebloks modular smartphone - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: andyb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2013, 02:58:18 pm
content: Don't worry guys, the engineers will figure out how to make ithttps://www.thunderclap.it/en/projects/2931-phonebloks

author: garak
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2013, 06:40:22 pm
content: Of course they will! Everyone knows that 'engineer' is just another term for a specially trained miracle-pooper!In all seriousness, someone posted this to my FB wall yesterday, and there ended up being a 40 comment chain of why this simply isn't possible. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about EE doesn't even have to think twice about it. Anyone with an understanding of the mobile industry or economics doesn't have to do much head scratching, either.I predict another MuOptics styled IGG campaign, and a whole lotta butthurt.Addition:I cannot understand how they rationalise this as a way to reduce e-waste. If everyone was buying more phone bits every 2 months, the net result would be that all old bits would end up as e-waste instead of the complete unit. If people just RECYCLED stuff as they should do, this project would be completely surplus to requirements.

author: s_lannan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2013, 09:41:36 am
content: Oh man.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2013, 09:22:27 am
content: I dont know. It is pie in the sky, but it IS possible.Maybe not in the 4 inch phone form factor, but Phablet doesnt pose any trouble.All you need is power + SPI to every block, and MIPI to LCD and camera. 10 connections at max (camera requires spi and mipi at the same time).Just look at Bunnies $10 phonehttp://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=3040Phone nowadays is one chip deal (soc = cpu + pop ram + radio), all of the other blocks would be trivial.I thinkhttp://rhombus-tech.net/is/was in the process of designing modular tablet where you can upgrade SoC/screen/battery part by just swapping modules.

author: GeorgeHahn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 09:10:07 am
content: I'm just gonna putthishere and walk away slowly.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 10:22:35 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeHahn on October 07, 2013, 09:10:07 amperson that wrote that havent seen modern smartphone, nowadays whole thing is only 3 chips (soc+ pop ram, flash, wifi+bt+gps)

author: DomesticHacks
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 11:11:59 pm
content: I also thought about this idea, and i think a have a more practical solution:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modular-smartphone-inspired-by-phonebloks/The video in which I explain how this could work is in German but maybe it is interesting even without understanding what i'm saying.Basically my idea is to use one mainboard with the modules pressed against it on the front and back with spring contacts. The mainboard connects the modules to eachother via for example a I²C bus, UART etc. There aren't that much different bus types in a mobile phone. The Processor and RAM could be in one module so you don't have problems with the fast connection to the memory.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 12:37:26 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on October 07, 2013, 10:22:35 amAnd that makes modules impossible, as it wouldn't be modular enough. Think about it.Besides,lLaptops are more or less modular. But, when was the last time you heard of someone upgrading their 4 year old notebook to take wireless N and burn Blu-Ray?

author: GeorgeHahn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 02:02:39 am
content: Quote from: DomesticHacks on October 07, 2013, 11:11:59 pmSure, it could work. It's not an issue of technical feasibility, it's one of cost vs features and durability. You could get a fully modular phone up and running, but the software would give you hell, it won't be as modular as people want, and many of the modules would have to go in more or less the same place. (ie: battery, speakers, camera, usb/hdmi ports)Quote from: ivan747 on October 08, 2013, 12:37:26 amExactly! Exactlyexactlyexactly!

author: DomesticHacks
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 05:09:19 am
content: If there is actually a market for this is another question.Even if the end customer isn't interested in changing things in its phone, this concept could help for example providers creating the best phone for their network or you can buy exactly the phone you need and the vendor is plugging your phone together (like it's done with laptops).

author: Jebnor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 05:23:41 am
content: The software would be a nightmare. Writing generic code which accounts for all the permutations is very non-trivial. You get into dependency hell. This app "requires" a camera, that 'Requires' so much memory. etc. It's like getting people to build their own computers when they only know how to click the mouse and type emails.Just dumb.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 06:21:41 am
content: Quote from: ivan747 on October 08, 2013, 12:37:26 amall the time, but then again I do ITI upgraded wifi, cpus, ram, battery, even LCDs (for higher res), not to mention swapping flooded keyboards, fixing broken usb/power connectors. You dont do those things on megastore special of the day laptops, but on HP/DELL/IBM(the old real ones) business class machines.You cant do most of it on tablets/phones, you simply sell/throw them away. I think you should be able to at least swap the motherboard. There is nothing wrong with fullHD 5' LCDs nowadays, no point throwing whole thing just because you want 2 more cpu cores and more flash.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 08:11:44 am
content: I could see this idea working but NOT in the way they show. The number of pins would not be sufficient.If you had a small thin backplane taking say four cards, with each card having multiple functions (one card for CPU+RAM+basic radio, one for flash, one for camera, one for additional radios like wifi/gps/bluetooth.) It could use e.g. a PCI Express x1 type interface which only requires power plus a few data lines. I think the battery should be a separate module.Major problem is, I don't see this phone being particularly thin, and since you're limited to a few data lines, it won't be very fast either. Especially when multiple peripherals want to talk.

author: VintageHenk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 09:28:13 am
content: While the idea in itself is nice, and with I really don't see how this will reduce e-waste.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 09:53:22 am
content: I think the designer missed one very basic and fundamental role of a smartphone, that is already "proven" which is its now a life-style statement, rather than it's function as communication, entertainment and computing tool.Big corporations just don't like the idea where its consumers starting to yell out .."Upgrade with new module ? No way ! It looks so yester-month that making me puke everytime I see it !""Are you sure you've installed a kitchen set module in there ?"... or worst kind ..."Thats so lame ! If you can't afford a full featured phone with all those modules installed, just buy a dumb one, instead of pretending it has all but just basic dumb phone + text msg features only + dummy modules, you're just hurting your street cred just by using it, hide it NOW !!!!!"Fail

author: parabuzzle
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 05:01:53 pm
content: BravoV,I totally agree with you here. Its not about function.. its about form and style and statement. There are a few hardcore function over form nuts out there, but most people don't fall in to that bucket. The creator kind of missed the point here-Mike

author: chicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2013, 06:46:20 am
content: Motorola, or at least their marketing department, just showed up at the partyhttp://motorola-blog.blogspot.com/2013/10/goodbye-sticky-hello-ara.htmlThey are even looking for "collaborators"http://www.dscout.com/ara

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2013, 09:36:37 am
content: Quote from: chicken on October 29, 2013, 06:46:20 amDoes anyone else find the "concept picture" of disconnected screensstill displaying an imagerather disturbing? Either they're suggesting they'll only use eink screens or someone in the graphic "design" department screwed up on common sense... it is normal to show the product functioning in concept art, but not when the product has been taken to bits...

author: HWgeek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2013, 08:52:08 pm
content: Its a cute idea.Lets put aside technological hurdles like bus connections etc etc.... Lets just open up today's very hard to open cellphone or itouch like device.What do we find? A very small integrated board with SoC, DDR ram, Nand flash and power converter. All on a board that is about ~1" x ~2" give or take. Splitting that up won't be feasible other than maybe the nand (make it an sdcard connection) given routing and matching and speed of SoC to DDR ram. Then we have a camera board, battery and screen.Lets put the camera on an SD card like board, okay now we have a modular camera , only constrained by bus topology... so lets make it USB, that should give us some flexibility and "upgrade ability".We could do something similar for the cell modem. caveat would be bus interface.Next wrap the battery and add a connector so it plugs into the exo frame.To make the unit thinner and lighter, bond the exo frame to the screen.So now you can change those modules...The problem is going to be the s/w... See Windows/Linux/etc, see OS run on loads of different hardware... See loads of forums for having to configure OS to run correctly. Of course we could setup a certification authority...It is an interesting idea overall..

author: Greyersting
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2013, 12:38:28 am
content: What would happen if you took out the CPU while the phone was running?

author: Noize
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2013, 03:57:23 am
content: Quote from: Greyersting on October 30, 2013, 12:38:28 amWell it wouldn't work anymore and you would be wondering why did you do that. Hey Chuck ( No particular reason for Chuck other than I like Bill Hicks) that shit is good!

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2013, 11:36:51 am
content: Quote from: HWgeek on October 29, 2013, 08:52:08 pmAndroid already runs on tons of different smartphone hardware (even more diverse than the PC) with little issue.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2013, 05:16:43 pm
content: Quote from: HWgeek on October 29, 2013, 08:52:08 pmIf it's a phone, it will also have a bunch of radios. It would be really nice to be able to swap those.

author: Greyersting
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2013, 12:43:41 am
content: Quote from: Noize on October 30, 2013, 03:57:23 amThe phone would just turn off?

author: GeorgeHahn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2013, 09:30:19 am
content: Quote from: HWgeek on October 29, 2013, 08:52:08 pmIf there's one side effect of something like this that I really like, it's the availability of cheap (ish) high resolution cameramodules. That would be excellent for the DIY community.

author: chicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 02:28:54 am
content: Psst, it's still alive:http://techland.time.com/2014/02/26/google-project-ara-modular-smartphone/Looking at the pictures, I'm more worried about battery life than interconnect speeds.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 02:33:38 am
content: I had always hoped that they would just take the GSM section and modularlize it like the integrated 3g/4g cards in laptops. Then you could just move it from your once device to another. But since much of the hardware is now part of the processor, it isn't as practical.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 04:55:48 am
content: I seriously cant tell where the battery is on that picblue stuff at the top?Yeah, Qualcomm, Mediatek, even Nvidia and recently Intel, they all pushed radio into the same SoC to cut costs. As a result every SoC on the market is susceptible to attack from the radio channel (already demonstrated as practical at CCC)

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 05:00:15 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on February 27, 2014, 04:55:48 amThe grey pouch down from middle, with black text on it, and kapton tape on the top part.That looks like a really small battery for a phone that size. Capacity per volume in modern batteries isn't that advanced that people would want smaller battery.Check the video, he clearly shows where the battery is. (second vid on that page, not the youtube video.)http://techland.time.com/2014/02/26/google-project-ara-modular-smartphone/

author: chicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 05:02:06 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on February 27, 2014, 04:55:48 amLower right, the half-inserted module with the grey-silver blob.

author: nuhamind2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 07:39:53 am
content: This guy (http://datastickies.com/) has found a way to transfer data by sticking it on a glass surface, guess this will make phoneblok realizeable

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 07:20:51 pm
content: "How? It's made possible with graphene."

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 04:41:42 am
content: Quote from: chicken on February 27, 2014, 05:02:06 amDOH! its standard liion pouch, I was looking for a neat battery module somewhere around the main chassis on the picture :/Yeah, it looks 1/2 the size of "normal" phone batteries

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 06:23:03 pm
content: Desktop PCs are as modular as it gets. When was the last time you upgraded your CPU without replacing the Mobo? It's not AS awesome as they make it look. CPUs and chipsets tend to grow together, and tend to perform best with their "own" counterpart. CPU sockets are upgraded every few versions.Even when replacing something as modular as your GPU card, you often opt for a complete systems upgrade in order to get the maximum out of the new card - say your mobo doesn't support PCIe 3.0 16x yet.Memory upgrades are hindered by memory bus version upgrades.Modularity is overrated, in a way. Yes, iPhones would do good to have a replaceable SD card "hard drive", and generally the whole mobile world would do well to be less closed.But with a device as portable as a phone, I think ruggedness is paramount. A modular design would introduce points of failure, and make the system more fault-prone.And of course modularity is doable, but this block concept is a bunch of crazy - the sort 12 year olds tend to come up with. The whole project seems like an April fools' joke.+besides, the modularity in PCs makes sense only because it's an open platform. Because there are literally thousands of component vendors. I don't see how that would ever happen here, with a Google Ara or Motorola PhoneBloks if it ever happens (tho bets are on won't).

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2014, 06:19:06 pm
content: Considering google is trying to sell motorola to lenovo they may just scrap everything and go their own way.

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 06:10:35 pm
content: As many posters mentioned before, there many reasons why modular phone is not the best seller in phone store. I think there are 4 main problems with modular approach:1) technical implementation is tricky. Modern phones are slim and fast because most parts are very integrated - make them modular and you lose those benefits.2) Phone blocks has to become a manufacturing standard. Who is going to set the standard and why manufacturers should take the risk? Apple or any other manufacturer would not try to produce platform on their own cost for other manufacturers to use and compete with them. Would Apple be so successful if they produced exactly the same phones as others? Manufacturers are generally not in favour for such detailed standards, set not by government institution.3) actual price of phone would increase, based on 1 or 2.4) user interface/experience would be poor, because consumer would have to make an engineering decision each time their try to assemble the phone. Do I need bigger battery with poor performance or do I need better performance? I need both!!! That is far too demanding for a typical consumer, especially when you can buy an assembled phone with predefined features in low/mid/high cost range.Also, why the question is raised backwards? It is assumed that users change their phones so frequently to get the newest "features" that it is necessary to construct modular design. Do you really need the newest phone (because it is 0.5% faster), or is it conspicuous consumption? On the other hand, manufacturer is interested in best money and features ratio (long term reliability, features upgrades, etc.). Current phone design is not suited for longevity/repair-ability/robustness. I don't see how phoneblocks could change current mind set of consumers and manufacturers.I can think of one somewhat similar example. European Union (government institution, not business unit in any way) has standardised cellphone chargers to use micro USB port. This was good move, in my opinion. But there are manufacturers (like Apple) with custom connector for each generation.One of declared goal for phoneblocks is to reduce waste. In current situation I hardly see how this could lead to less waste.If phoneblocks could lead a standardisation of cellphone battery sizes, I am all for it. Otherwise, welcome back to the reality.

author: chicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2014, 10:22:10 pm
content: Talking about which, there's an update about Google's project Ara:http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2014/04/google-reveals-more-design-details-about-its-modular-ara-phone/http://news.phonebloks.com/post/81904774571/video-project-ara-update-in-this-video(between marketing wanking, there's also some naked electronics)http://www.projectara.com/mdk/

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2014, 05:32:07 am
content: Its ALIVE!http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/06/google-moonshot-group-demos-modular-phone-that-almost-actually-works/and _almost_ booted the OS

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2014, 02:17:43 am
content: OK, who's going to design the oscilloscope module?