EEVblog #178 - Agilent's U1272A response - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: pmrlondon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2011, 06:58:54 am
content: I have to say "Well done Agilent". Admitting to the problem and responding - just what I like to see.This makes Fluke's lack of response a poor show. Agilent certainly know how to respond to social media.I would be more inclined to buy Agilent than Fluke at the moment.

author: Lunat1c
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2011, 07:38:03 am
content: Quote from: pmrlondon on June 14, 2011, 06:58:54 amSame here. I will not even consider buying a Fluke whenever I'm looking for a multimeter. There are other top notch multimeter makers out there that seem to give a damn about their customers and bother replying to issues found within their products, something Fluke didn't care to do. I'm pretty sure many people feel the same way.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2011, 10:38:21 am
content: Here is the link ...Currently there is 115 people who liked the video and just one who disliked it.I bet my socks that the one who gave a negative was Agilent it self,they pressed the wrong button because of their excitement !!!I did defended the Agilent problem from the start in this forum,and I did that because I had the faith that they will handle it.Why I had faith ? Simply because the company who gives away their new hand held series for public tests,they are listening, they are ready to handle the feedback no matter if it is negative or positive.They was ready to act like the Goal keeper does by staying awake all the 90 minutes in a football game.I am glad that they make it, and I will personally help them, so the next firmware update to be even more improved.About Fluke I will agree with Dave, they had lots of skilled personal in their castle,and those people in there they do show an great understanding when you contact them.And probably the Fluke problem is that they keep their pigeons most of the time locked in cages.Fluke does visiting the EEV forum, I am a living proof, because they read in herethat I got charged by returning costs for the on warranty replacement unit that they send to me.They read about it on the EEV forum. ( I was very happy so to bother them with an such complain)They contacted me, they offered to me for free many fuses that worth 100$ in Greece ( retail ) as gift.They send them in a huge box with UPS express to Greece from their castle in USA.( I even kept the shipping label so to remember them, and now it hangs on a frame, on my wall as a proof and souvenir )UNI-T is another good example of good communication by email." Nothing under the carpet any more ... " Yes my own vote goes to that 100%.

author: PetrosA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2011, 12:24:32 pm
content: Great blog, Dave. In my opinion, Agilent has been on the ball with the entire development process ever since they started the Voice of Agilent Users' (http://www.agilent.com/find/VOHU-contest) contest and contacted me personally to meet with some of their people during a trip to the US. That was in response to my observations about the U1211A clamp meter but during our three hour meeting we discussed their entire line, checked out some prototypes, reviewed working conditions here in the US and how they affect my needs for test gear and generally picked my brain which to me was a very impressive approach toward developing their products. Now they fix issues in record time. For as long as they keep up these tactics, I will be a returning customer.

author: sdscotto
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2011, 04:37:06 pm
content: Agilent's response on both the O'Scope and the U1272A is one of the reasons I will do more business with Agilent. Regardless of the social media pressure, they could still TRY to sweep it under the rug. They haven't. They've shown their long term reputation is more important than a few bumps in the road, regardless of the short term costs to make good.Agilent, you get my next business!BK Precision is another company that I really had never given much thought until Dave's review of the 879B LCR meter. I waited to see their response on the Mix-Max-Avg bug. Another well handled issue that resulted in two more sales for B&K, a friend and I each bought one.[Dave, you really should get commission from these folks!]On the other hand, you have Danaher destroying the reputation of nearly every company they own. I make a conscious effort to avoid them whenever possible. They still have some decent products, and a few good people left at places like Fluke and Tektronix, but I don't trust them as a whole anymore. The customer no longer comes first so neither do their products for me or my friends and associates.It's unfortunate that good people and prestigious companies are now the minority.

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2011, 06:59:27 pm
content: Hi all,Gotta love Dave's blog on the Agilent responce.....well done....and I totally agree!One thing i'd like to add is that I think that a lot of the big companies like Fluke etc are missing a trick. There are a couple of things here IMHO,With the internet these days firmware upgrades are a lot cheaper to carry out to the user than they used to be. Wind the clock back and we used to have to package our faulty products back to the company.......and it would cost them a bomb to sort out, even if it was a small firmware upgrade. But now it's effectively free, the user downloads, the user installs. Quite a lot of product issue's are firmware related I'd hedge to bet these days, it's the nature of the design.Companies like Agilent are turning a negative into a positive by their immediate responce. Users that don't have any Agilent equipment (like me) will think twice now on their next purchase........Agilent are getting near the top of my list now. Ok, they had a problem product, but they're responce is GREAT marketing and why would you not want to grab that offer by the b@lls every time!Ian.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2011, 08:23:17 pm
content: Quote from: IanJ on June 15, 2011, 06:59:27 pmYes, it is marketing, and this is the problem I have with it. In fact, there are two issues.1) Notice that Agilent responded, Agilent didn't act proactively on their own.If you see the bug list you can easily determine that Agilent knew they had a bunch of problems with that particular firmware. Some of the other bugs on the list would have warranted a new firmware release on their own. What would happen if the particular issue wasn't published? My guess is not much. Silent firmware upgrades when a unit happens to be back at some authorized Agilent repair center or calibration center.2) Agilent responded to one of the largest and well known blogs when it comes to multimetersWould Agilent have responded the same way if the problem wasn't published that wide and large? Because the seriousness of a problem and the publication converge it gets are only very loosely related. Would Agilent have responded if a lesser known blog would have published the issue? My guess is they wouldn't.One can't predict how Agilent will act the next time if the circumstances are different but the problem is as serious. Therefore I would not take this one-time Agilent marketing action into account when buying.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2011, 10:02:06 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on June 15, 2011, 08:23:17 pmNo one does predictions.But at the end of this specific day, because of their actions they got listed in the list of the nice guys.And they worth to be rewarded.The tomorrow is not here yet, why should I worry about it.I am justified to worry only for what bothers me today.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2011, 10:55:09 pm
content: I'll say I agree somewhat with BAW. (must be becoming miserable in my old age,)Agilent response is to be applauded it's a good response, but it is a response to a problem or suite of problems that could potentially remove any trust in the instrument. Good to see that it appears resolved. Bad to think such a problem apparently slipped through pre market testing without notice.The Fluke 87-5 issue has been narrowed down to close proximity to GSM transmission resolved in most cases by moving the cell phone away. I realise that their are isolated examples of bricking being reported, but these are rare and handled by the Fluke replacement warranty. The Agilent issue was appearing on virtually every unit tested. Comparing the two issues is like comparing apples with oranges, your not going to fix GSM susceptibility with a firmware flash but then most 87-5 users can solve any issue by what should be good standard practice anyway.I agree with Dave's rant to the extent that companies who are open and responsive will be those who fare best in a switched on and media savvy marketplace. Fluke could have done themselves a whole mess of good with a considered and non patronising response. Agilent have gained a lot of favour with this response.True it's how issues are dealt with rather than a Utopian dream of issue free products that will sort the product sheep from the product goats. For my money a watch this space approach will deliver more miles than any knee jerk reaction. Reputations don't wither overnight, likewise they are not maintained without continued effort.I'm happy to see Agilent's aggressive competition to place new product in our sphere, hopefully competiton will result in some keener sticker prices at the quality end.

author: kaptain_zero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2011, 11:09:53 pm
content: I have to say it's refreshing to see which companies are responding to issues and which companies are NOT.While Agilent was not at the top of my list for multimeters, and come to think of it, neither was BK precision, Fluke will be removed from the top spot on my list and moved towards the bottom based on their lack of response to the GSM issue with the 87V. I suspect it's a minor issue, but it IS an issue, none the less. I'm glad they responded to Kiriakos's situation with a new 28II but that does nothing for the rest of us 87V owners.Dear Fluke.... A lifetime warranty is worth very little to the end user if it requires said user to beg and scream to get service. Your competitors are coming clean and offering prompt fixes to EVERYONE when an issues arises, as YOU should have done. Dave said it well.... "Buy a clue!" If you want the solution to Kiriakos's problem to be the ultimate solution, you should offer every owner of an 87V the same replacement. If that is NOT the solution you wish to go forward with, then please produce another fix promptly, as your competitors have done, if you wish to retain your reputation as a top notch company. You need to do this before your reputation falls any further..... in the eyes of the educated user...... who knows how to use the Internet, and, come to think of it, who doesn't?!?!?RegardsChristian

author: kaptain_zero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2011, 11:45:49 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 15, 2011, 10:55:09 pmSorry to disagree but Fluke HAS lost it's reputation with ME and will not regain it without dealing with the 87V issue. The susceptibility is REAL, the lack of response is REAL, the rarity of the problem may also be REAL, but in the end, it leaves whichever user who encounters this problem with a bricked unit and the ordeal of sending it back to the manufacturer for repair/replacement as a REAL ORDEAL. At the very least, owners of the 87V should have been officially informed that the issue exists, and that new guidelines have been issued regarding the use of Fluke's hardware, to avoid the problem, if they (Fluke) do not intend to fix it.As it stands, Fluke's reputation WILL wither overnight, as their competitors move quickly towards rectifying ANY problems, software or hardware related, for ALL their customers..... affected or not.... period.Personally, as Dave also has commented, I realize and understand that these types of devices are complex and may harbor issues that the manufacturer may have initially missed. But, this is not a license to ignore the issue, once they (the manufacturer) are aware there is a problem...... limited or extensive!That is my view and I intend to vote with my $ when it comes to my next purchase.RegardsChristian

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 12:24:27 am
content: Quote from: kaptain_zero on June 15, 2011, 11:45:49 pmNo need for apologies, your free to disagree to your hearts content. You can make your choices and I can make mine, doesn't make either of us right or wrong.QuoteThere are all kinds of possible susceptibilities in most high tech products, the dumb luck fairies can strike on this or any number of other more likely issues. I have one of those dreaded 87-3s, I remember to switch it off, for me it was never an issue worth pursuing, traction for others may vary.QuoteI think that is what I stated.QuoteIn your opinion. Wiser heads may take a somewhat more cautious and considered approach. Fluke has after all delivered quality for decades. You wont get sacked for buying Fluke, nada, nada. Only time will tell how Fluke will fare at maintaining their reputation and how others fare at surpassing it. One or two events, such as these, wont change the industry landscape in an instant.QuoteWho says Fluke have ignored any issue? Who says they have taken no action? Where they are shooting themselves in the foot is their lack of communication to a media savvy market.QuoteAs you are entitled. But being your view doesn't make my view, or BAW's, or any number of other differing opinions wrong.I dislike the way Westfield does business and choose to never enter their premises unless I am paid to do so, my view, my choice, my purchasing dollar decision. I feel I am right to do so, however last time I looked their shares price hadn't suffered too badly for my decision. Same applies for any purchase fatwa some dude in Canada applies to purchase of Fluke products. The trouble for Fluke, Westfield, Agilent or any number of other companies hedges on how they address market sentiment not whether they notice any isolated customer overreaction.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 12:50:29 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 15, 2011, 10:55:09 pmYes, you are right in that the problems itself is apples and oranges, but you can compare them from a response point of view.I didn't expect Fluke to panic and announce to the world their famous meter has a huge issue (it wasn't), nor would I have expected them to recall units or offer replacements. But I was expecting them to investigate the issue and get back to us on it, and explain what caused it, and a commitment that they would at least fix it in the next PCB update. But there was deathly silence apart from the initial "thanks, we'll take a look at it".And of course Fluke bent over backward to replace Kiriakos's unit without question, so their service is exemplary, as it always has been.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 01:07:54 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 16, 2011, 12:24:27 amThat could be spot-on. For all we know, they may have silently fixed the issue in a minor PCB update. But yes, their communication is the problem.Fluke are part of the big EVIL (IMO) Danaher group, who do things "the Danaher way".http://www.danaher.com/about/corevalues.htmhttp://www.thomsonlinear.com/website/com/eng/about_us/danaher_business_system.phpSo it seems they are supposed to listen to us, but then only change their "strategic plan" because of it.Although they do mention follow-up, of which they get an F in this case.I suspect the "voice-of-the-customer" might come down to a carefully worded market survey...Dave.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 01:23:12 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 16, 2011, 12:50:29 amI'd agree with this entirely the comparison of responses certainly favours Agilent. The point I am trying to make is that this alone is not what determines a buying decision, bit certainly is a real consideration. The beauty of a medium such as this blog is that it allows feedback and consolidation of experiences. Companies need to realise the value of this feedback it's better than any statistical smoke some marketing guru will concoct. Just as new media changes the landscape for manufacturer it also changes it for users we need to be realistic and considered in our expectations, change takes time in the corporate world.There are thousands of over-reacting bloggers screaming blue murder just like their are thousands of counter thumping nut job customers in traditional channels. They are quite rightly ignored, to your credit EEVBlog seems to be getting the balance about right. Just as there is a place for the rants there is also a place for the checks and counterbalances of the odd conservative.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 01:55:01 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 16, 2011, 01:23:12 amWell I hate seeing some one to trying to impose to the others the "proper" way of thinking.Well for your information we are not stupids or morons.And the bottom line is, that the what ever buying decision,it is an personal thing, and every one makes his own.And it could be effected even by silly factors like the color of the device.I get very angry with anyone who gets in my way, so to effect my own buying decision.Nothing personal.

author: kaptain_zero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 02:08:18 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 16, 2011, 01:23:12 amI resemble that remark about "over-reacting bloggers screaming blue murder" but I would also be the first to fire someone who worked for me and assumed that "nobody ever got fired for buying Xbranded products".The Company I work for lives by those words... And yet we (the workers) suffers daily with crap software and crap hardware that does not function and that isn't being fixed because it's closed source and the maker has decided they can take their sweet time fixing it and charge us for the "upgrade".... if it ever gets here, because some nitwit in purchasing figured he won't get fired for having bought "The Industry Standard".And just to point out one other small, but perhaps not insignificant, detail.... "Thousands of over-reacting bloggers" are still thousands of willing buyers who *may* chose to go elsewhere with their $$$ if they feel they may be treated with indifference, previous reputation notwithstanding. I don't recall who said it.... or if anyone said it... but I'll say it... in my alcohol induced brilliance.. "You're only as good as your last fixed screw up". I own a Fluke 87V... I even bought it after the GSM issue was brought up... I'm still considering purchasing another one, because it is, after all, a fine DMM otherwise. But, I am personally miffed at the apparent indifference about the known issue with this particular unit and I *may* choose to go elsewhere based on information I read on the internet and in particular on this board.RegardsChristian akaKaptain "I pays my moneys and I takes my choices" Zero

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 02:11:38 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on June 16, 2011, 01:55:01 amWell if you see any instances of that you make sure to let those responsible know. But why are you telling me?QuoteOr equally could be made on more considered parameters. Your choice! A point I've made efforts to make previously! Not moron would conflict somewhat with any decision based solely upon colour, wouldn't you think? That's an observation not an accusation.QuoteWell if you find it ever happening you give those concerned a stern telling off, OK.QuoteWhatever! No skin of my nose!

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 02:24:54 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 16, 2011, 02:11:38 amBecause you just got in the list of the responsible ones, and I did not had planed an direct hit on you.And so I will say directly that personally I do not give a shit about your version of what determines a buying decision.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 02:31:02 am
content: Quote from: kaptain_zero on June 16, 2011, 02:08:18 amI'd agree with you entirely, the sad reality that the world of survival and corporate ladder climbing often has very real and far from practical differences from any sensible decision you or I may make. I work for myself so I have fewer arguments with the boss, but I also work in a world where a known badge will impress a consultant far more than sensible application.QuoteKeeps Microsoft in business, as you'll recognise from your statement above, sadly the buying decisions are not always made by those with the clues. An ever present reality in the engineering world.QuoteOr thousands of buyers who will follow fad-of-the-day, something those evil marketers know all too well.QuoteThat's the reality, and you've made a sensible purchase, not because you bought a known badge but because you weighed up all the factors that affected you. As has been stated ad infinitum every purchaser should apply his own critical factors.EEVblog is doing it's bit to tell it like it is and stands a chance of having some small influence non of those anonymous ranting bloggers will ever attain. Cheers for your constructive input.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 02:38:23 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on June 16, 2011, 02:24:54 amThen start your own forum and put me on your ban list, if that makes you happy. I doubt I'd ever visit it anyway.Seriously, grow up. It's a forum a sharing of opinion not a quest to win over hearts and minds. You'll still get your dinner regardless of whether my opinion agrees with yours or not. If you do go hungry it won't be the result of any forum post of mine.Buy what you damn well want! I cannot make it any clearer than that. happy now?

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 02:41:56 am
content: Due the respect that I have for Dave, I will not get more to this.At list you are aware about my opinion for your tactics.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 02:48:14 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on June 16, 2011, 02:41:56 amTactics? Next thing it will be black helicopters!Your entitled to your opinions, why not extend that same courtesy to others?

author: kaptain_zero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 03:11:22 am
content: Gents,I am not going to appoint myself as a referee or moderator, but having lived in Europe AND in Canada, I smell a wee bit of misinterpretation, or at least the possibility of such, and based on languages and the way we may say things, it may be perceived by someone else, in a different way, because they speak a different language and sometimes things do not translate all that well. After all, is anyone satisfied with the way a manual from China reads, except for the Chinese?We've all made our points and each individual who reads our comments must draw their own conclusions from what we have posted.RegardsChristian

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 05:54:21 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 16, 2011, 01:07:54 amVery true. From Flukes perspective imagine what would happen if they announced "Yes we have a problem, but you can do nothing to fix it - return your instrument". Agilent just issued a firmware update with a note that they were giving away the download cables, cheap goodwill from their POV. Only people who have had direct experience of the problem or have read about it on the net will know that the problem exists and they have a limited time to get the cables to do something about it. Co-ordinating a product recall is not something that any company wants to do and most will only do so if there is a safety issue.Neil

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 01:18:54 pm
content: Its important for sellers to listen to their customers and its certainly a point to add when buying a product.However, on the 1272a issue, the firmware issues were very many and the unit is nearly unusable as far as measurement goes. Giving users a free USB cable so they can download and do the upgrades themselves is an excellent solution, not because of altruism or wishing to please customers, but the labor and costs to take returns of entire DMMs to fulfill their warranty obligation and ship updated ones back to owners would far exceed what the cable is worth or the cost to mail it to afflicted owners.Further, if more bugs are found on this DMM [ or Agilent is anticipating more can exist between now and 11/2011 when the offer expires], the owners can continue to update it themselves.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 02:40:01 pm
content: The essence of the EEVblog #178, is what Dave had collect or receive as responses to his own video blogs,and those responses are information collected from past 17-18 months until today.And this is the most fresh sum of responses up to date.Every freelancer or company that acts a buyer, has his own experiences,and most of the times those experiences had to do mostly with the quality of service,that any one receives in his own geographical location.If I had to make my mind about Fluke, by evaluating the behavior of the local Greek dealer,I would had to say or conclude that is a terrible company..In addition to the responses collected by Dave, I added my own too.And every one is welcome to act alike, if he has some solid evidence as proof, so to prove his own honesty.This called as useful and informative conversation.Personally I do not form an opinion by just reading speculations, that they do not come with solid evidence.And about Agilent I do not believe that the U1272A had enough time in the market,so to make large scale sales.And this concludes that every new buyer will have nothing to worry about the first signs of instability,that the first firmware was hiding in it.But lets return to what we have today,and those are the good news, that there is out there companies ready to assist us if we need any assistance.By looking forward I would say, that there is time for all those companies to change or improve their behavior or response time.And at the new sum of Dave at 2012, they will be included too in it.Agilent took the lead in this race of 2011, because they came with solutions two times in the roll,and this is not a coincidence, its a proof.Simple as that.And finally about speaking for business,Fluke will get my business if they drop down the price of their thermal imager device by minus 80%.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 08:22:11 pm
content: I will add my thoughts and very limited experience on this matter to this thread.About companies getting closer to the customer, yes, that is the direction 'they would like' to follow. It is the hot topic across high level management and academia at the moment. They are very well aware that the customers are more demanding (to the point of taking something for granted they knew it existed only 10 minutes ago) and that they talk to eachother and thousands of other customers. They are also aware that customers is what keeps them going and all companies want what is beneficial for them. Social media and replying to customers' complaints are just a drop in the ocean of 'the tools' of what is termed Customer Relationship Management (CRM). I would encourage you to read more on this if you would like to understand the principles companies are 'trying' to apply. Those claiming to have such a good grasp on the subject as to reject everything companies are doing towards those principles, and making their own suggestions instead, are grossly confused.Another point I want to make is one that I feel is completely ignored, and that is that companies are formed by a collection of people; they are not a single person. I am sure you all know how different a person can be from another, even twins can be like day and night. It is the same in companies across departments, geo locations even across desks. Choosing to reject a company (the collection of people) and to tell thousands of others to do the same solely from your one or two bad experiences is ignorant, revengeful and unfair in the same way you would be wrong to take one or two samples as the true value of a measured quantity; there is simply too much noise in your measurement. Let me break this down further.By flaming a company like Fluke or Agilent or any other company for this matter simply because you (or several others) had a (or many) bad experience with them only shows your ungratefulness towards everything they are doing right. This is especially true if you are clueless and just complain because it is a hot topic. Agilent, Fluke and a million others are innovating every day taking the whole industry forward with great products. Take the Fluke 233. What lead Fluke invest R&D funds in a wireless display DMM? Who co-invented the optical mouse and implemented optical continuity indication on the U1272A? Agilent did. They thought there was a market need as spoken by their customers that they do listen. I hear you say, this guy is off-topic. I am actually very on topic because I see many have succumbed to the tempation to treat a company as a single person and judge them based on your very limited experience. I understand that it is beneficial for some people to 'be loud', but for the majority it is unjustified.I have had an excellent experience with Fluke changing the screen of a Fluke 289 for free. They also put fresh batteries and calibrated it for free when they were not obligated to do so. I found a bug in their new online service request/booking system and they fixed it. So why do we have very good but also very bad experiences with companies? Well, it is because a company is not a single person. The CEO of Microchip might have had a good game of golf, the value of the customer might cross his mind and he may decide to give you a call for a chat. Does that make Microchip a 'good' company? No, that makes the CEO, at that specific point in time under the specific circumstances a 'good' guy. Fluke gives away calibrations for free, is Fluke a good company? No, whoever decided to give me a free calibration is a good guy. Fluke did not shield the 87V against strong radiation from a mobile after the issue was discovered? It is the decision of only a handful of people in Fluke, not Fluke the company (this is also debatable from a technical point of view). But these guys are working for their companies and they are supposed to 'represent' the company, right? Yes, the 'core values' and strategy mentioned earlier. Companies try hard to 'harmonise' employee behaviour, attitudes etc (internal marketing and human resources management) but this is the true nature of the problem they are having and that it results in us perceiving a different Fluke, a different Agilent, a different Toyota every time we contact them: you simply can't flip a switch and force all people to act according to the 'core values' or the CRM principles; a baby crying all night will have an impact on your patience in the morning.So how can we tell who is treating us, the customers, better? The way we can judge a company's customer behaviour is by our collective experiences with them. Forums and communities do help. I am proposing the following system.You think Fluke or Agilent treated you wrongly? Cast your vote and tell other people on places like this forum. If you heard about the issue but have not contacted the company yet, you are not allowed to cast a vote as you have not interacted with the company. You think the company treated you well? Don't forget to cast your vote - we tend to take companies treating us well for granted and make a fuss when this is not the case. The more votes collected, the less noise will be in the measurement and we can begin to see which company is, as a company, doing better. You think the U1272A and all other Agilent DMMs are great and you are thinking of casting a vote for Agilent? Don't. Perception of product quality is a different beast.This is unbiased as every vote is equally important, there are many votes to see the bigger picture and only accounts for valid customer-company interactions. Many of us are contacting these companies every now and then so the results will converge fast. Only then we are in a position to say who is doing better in terms of customer interations. Judging by isolated cases is bullshit, to be honest, fair and scientific.So let the haters hate and come forward with some HTML code to do this. Your work will be a dream come true for these companies and an EEVBlog first. We are waiting.Alex

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 10:36:26 pm
content: Quote from: Alex on June 16, 2011, 08:22:11 pmI will choose just those few, so to say a word about them.1) As freelancer you do not need any special CRM studies,so to act with a positive manner to your customer.And no I do not need to understand the principles that companies are 'trying' to apply.As long they answer my emails and solves the what ever problem, in those one or two times,that I will even need them.2) Every customer is an isolated case, but the question is : are your an cooperative customer ? so to cooperate with you ?When I had to send the 87V back to Fluke, the person who I was communicating with, asked me if I had another DMM so to work with,just because he asked that , even if I had the awareness that his was thousands of kilometers away, and probably he could not do anything about it,I had feel good that he asked an such a question.Is this another trick written in the CRM books? I do not know.But my vote goes for to simple and practical cooperation's.3)Perception of product qualityThankfully I can form an opinion because I am capable,I am very proud for my self , because I can do that,and I am not aware even today of how it feels like of be upset because of your regrets for your choices.I can not say the same about my own life, but this is another story.And as last I will say that by my book, any hype about companies and models, gets erased in three years time, from the day that it gets born.There is no connection at all with the Fluke 87V and any older 87 model.The Fluke 87V Its another technology, If I could calibrate it with printed manual of 1989,I would feel confident that it does have an shiny history behind it.But it does not, and it must to be tested in time, like every other product, yellow or orange or red. ( I hate Green )And because I live in my time that is the 2011, I care for everything that is fresh enough,like products or opinions.And so speak up do not hold anything in you .

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 11:17:06 pm
content: QuoteAbsolutely, but Fluke/Agilent and the like are hardly freelancers. They can't control everything that is happening in the company when Kyriakos calls :-)QuoteNo, it isn't. This is an implementation of one of the principles, to make the customer feel he has the attention of the company. It's up the company to decide how they will actually do it, although guidelines exist. The person that answered, as I am sure you know, has been told to say this. But someone else put this measure in place and someone else thought about it etc. Glad to see it worked and you are happy, maybe they could have send you a replacement from a local depot if you said you cant work. My vote to simple and honest communications too, but I might be angry one day and I might not feel like cooperating. Many opinions is key, I mean, how many units of a specific model were sold in 2010?QuoteYou are right, the hype does, but the company is not left in the same state.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 11:36:01 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on June 16, 2011, 10:36:26 pmThat is not correct, while the underlying technology of 87V varies considerably from previous models there are many aspect of the design that draw from the prior linage. 87 series has built a long standing reputation as a reputable quality product. Is Ferrari's reputation and product or brand value erased and started fresh with each new model? No! Same applies to Fluke and Agilent. If I'd independently developed an exact quality equivalent of the 87V and released it to market without the Fluke 87 series reputation I'd be lucky to achieve 1% of the sales penetration this model has already achieved.Reputations are long built and go a lot further than specification sheets or current model performance. The entire package the services offered, the response to market and the product itself all determine the success and reputation.To get somewhere back to the threads topic, Agilent have gained themselves some real credibility with their response to their own stuff-up of releasing a problematic product to market. They have made a positive out of what could have been a very negative situation for them and have probably gained more cred than if they had simply had a good product hit market without issue.In comparison Fluke has failed to gain any advantage from a broadly similar set of events, their "secret manufacturers business" doing nothing to address market perceptions and leaving their customers to simply speculate an outcome.Both the Fluke and the Agilent are top notch and well supported products worthy of continued consideration. The recent issues we have seen with both marques being proof positive that shit happens. I don't see anything that should absolutely preclude consideration of either product. Unpatched I would have thought twice about the Agilent, but Agilents efforts to resolve the problem allay any fears I may have had.I really hope Agilent continues stirring the marketplace with some healthy competition there is room enough for both players.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2011, 01:06:03 am
content: Well, no surprise really, Fluke have responded.I just got a call from them and they have not only fixed the GSM problem (official explanation, they found a few RF sensitive components), but a new revision board is being tested as we speak.I'll hope to have a lot more on this a later date...So although they didn't get back to us on the progress, they have been head down bum up fixing it. Good to see!Dave.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2011, 01:09:39 am
content: Excellent. It will be interesting to see how they will decide to roll out the new hardware revision.Alex

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2011, 06:34:51 am
content: Quote from: Alex on June 16, 2011, 08:22:11 pmCry me a river.Companies are not people. As such they have no right to receive gratefulness. Companies are commercial entities to make money. They are not entities doing me a favor and they don't exist for doing favors. An essential point in capitalism is that everyone takes care of himself the best he can. If everyone takes care of himself you get strong market participants, and as such a strong market. And the market it the holly cow of capitalism, the market sorts out everything.Customers have long been denied a strong market participation. The ones most eager to deny customers their position were, drum role, companies, with the help of the politicians they bought. Customers were dumbed down toconsumers. So much for being grateful.Companies wanted, did, and still do try to dictate the rules of the game. In their favor of course. This has partly changed with the Internet. Deep in their heard companies are pissed that it just got a little bit harder to get customer's money. And that is their only motivation to do the social media thing.It is not about being nice. Companies aren't social welfare. They aren't interested in the advancement of sciences as such, in bringing the industry forward, or helping society. They are just interested in making money.People, like you, who tell me I need to be grateful towards a company are also trying to deny me a strong market position as a customer, and essentially do the work of the company.QuoteThey are not interested in taking the industry forward. They are interested in making money. It is called capitalism. Having to make products is an unpleasent side effect of them wanting to make money. Having to deal with customers is maybe the most unpleasant side effect of their desire to make money. Trust me, they would drop making products at a wimp and stop talking to customers if they figured out how to make the same money without having to develop, build market and ship products.When HP figured there was more money to make in selling printer ink (more expensive then gold), they got one step closer to the idea of having to deliver nothing but still making a load of money. So they got rid of the test and measurement parts (now Agilent), at a wimp. Agilent will do similar should they manage to find a similar magic trick in their realm.QuoteThen investment was a business decision. If we invest in R&D now we will have a product or products in the future that make us money. Companies keep R&D departments not for the advancement of scientist or society, but because it is part of their system to make money.QuoteYou are in fact off-topic. Companies are not persons. Companies are commercial entities. I, as a customer, fulfill an important role in capitalism, to demand the most from them in every way I can. It is not my problem if this is inconvenient for them. I actively fulfill my role in the system by highlighting issues they failed at.Unjustified? No. It is the company's job to highlight what they do right. That part is in no way my job. Why should I weaken my own market position by doing the work of the company, even for free?The whole thing is not about being fair. Fairness has no place in capitalism. Therefore there is no reason to try to be fair to companies according to your suggestion. Companies aren't fair to you. Why on earth do you want to be fair to them? A dream to become true? Oh yes, for the companies. You are suggesting nothing else than playing by the companies' tunes to help them make more money. Sorry, not my job.

author: pmrlondon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2011, 10:37:19 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 17, 2011, 01:06:03 amA reasonable, if not much above average, response - don't get me wrong, I wouldn't reject Fluke that easily, but they (proper) never were that high on my list - for the price point there are other good meters available. Gossen score highly with me, due to being European, but they are also rather expensive. Megger, of course, have British heritage, but often the features can be beaten for the price point.I'd still be more inclined towards Agilent, but the most impressive feature I have observed on the EEVblog is only available on a certain Gossen meter anyway.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2011, 02:06:45 pm
content: This is good news, finding and redesigning hardware is more involved than a firmware upgrade, so its no wonder it took a while. A lot still has to be done, but its good to know steps to a recovery are ongoing.Quote from: EEVblog on June 17, 2011, 01:06:03 am

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2011, 03:54:36 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 17, 2011, 01:06:03 amYour guess is wrong, I just shoot my foot by mistake from the excitement, that this surprise caused to me.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2011, 04:34:59 pm
content: Hi BoredAtWork, I feel we don't contradict eachother so, without making any new points, let me attempt to further clarify some parts of my post base on yoru reply.QuoteCompanies are commercial entities that exist as a collection of people possibly sharing similar ideas and resources, with an ultimate objective of profit. My point was not companies not being commercial entities, it was about them being a collection of people/stakeholders and as such there is great variation of attitudes within a company.QuoteThe main focus of businesses has changed several types over the 20th century (more on ref 1 and 2). From the beginning of the 20th century and until the late 1920’s businesses were production-oriented. The aim then was to manage production cost in an effort to minimise it and obtain cost leadership as a core competency. Furthermore, the value of a business was taken to arise from the installed capacity and fixed assets of the company.Following the production-focused era, was the sales-oriented business until the early 1950’s. During that period businesses were focused on short-term returns from ‘one-off’ transactions with customers. What is more, marketing tactics such as door-to-door sales force were introduced in an attempt to force customers into buying the products by leaving them no choice.Subsequently and until the late 1990s, executives and academics found that the original ‘4-Ps’ of marketing – Product, Place, Price, Promotion – that were introduced in the United States towards the end of the sales-oriented era, were inadequate, especially for services based companies (more on ref 1). An era centred on marketing began with the focus moving towards the needs of the customer. Marketing was adopted on a strategy level and market analysis was used to anticipate the needs of the customers and develop a proactive strategy in an attempt to meet those needs efficiently and effectively.Nowadays, relationship marketing puts the customer in the centre of the business strategy. The customer, or whoever is involved in the purchasing process, is now treated as a long-term investment rather than someone to have a single transaction with. Relationship marketing aims to create and maintain a ‘profitable bond’ between the company, its products and the customers. The focus is no longer only the product and its features, but the entire purchasing experience.That is not to say that there is genuine care for the customer/consumer. They still want to make profit, but the methods are changing. We are not saying contradicting things.QuoteThat is not what I meant, you misunderstood. What I meant was, by staying competitive with new products and services (for profit) they take the industry forward.QuoteThat was not my point. My point was not to jump into conclusions without forming, and seeing, the bigger picture first. Providing positive feedback for the things companies get right, you help them know what you want and subsequently hot to make profit from you. It is a win-win, you make them work for you essentially and at the end everyone is happy. But as I said above, you can’t generalise based on only a few incidents.QuoteWell, they need to offer something in return for the money they get, and products are usually fulfilling a need of the customer needs so offering products is a good idea. Yes, there are individuals within a company that consider customers as puppets (and many times they are right), but if you say that nobody in the company wants to make products you are ignoring all the design engineers (a tiny example) that get a kick from it. That is inline with one of my previous points, sometimes you need to break down a company into departments or even individuals before you can make a judgement.QuoteYes, of course it was, and we agree it was to make a profit. But how they can ensure they will make a profit? By listening to what the customer needs (or made to what they are made to think they need).QuoteYes, they do highlight what the think they did right. But sales is not a perfect measure of performance for a product so it is also your job to let them know so that they keep on doing something that pleases you. You will come back to you for their next product because you offer that market response insight they need, cheaply. By opening a communication channel you are actually strengthening your position.QuoteNot to be fair to the company. but to the rest of the people in the company that implemented the features you like. Thats what I meant and said about being fair.If you want to practise what you preach about companies, then sell the equipment from companies that have disappointed you on some occasion in the past and also equipment from companies that dissapointed someone else online and never buy from them again. Otherwise you are not being honest to yourself.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2011, 09:01:14 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on June 17, 2011, 03:54:36 pmServes you right for not trusting the good old Flukies.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2011, 09:34:55 pm
content: Quote from: Alex on June 17, 2011, 09:01:14 pmBasically I am the most neutral observer in the pack,and I am handling the situation with a large portion of humor.I entered in the Guinness book today,I am the first person in all the planet,who got an U1272A with firmware 2.0, that it was preloaded from the factory !!Long live the EEVEdit: I forgot to add the link !!https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=3232.msg50534#msg50534

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2011, 11:34:58 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on June 17, 2011, 09:34:55 pmI don't have 2.0 yet! (no USB cable yet)Dave.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2011, 01:41:58 am
content: Do nor worry Dave you will get it soon ..Your contact has almost the same timezone with you.One last picture before I remove all those tags like ( demo unit - not for resale and such )In Greece we never sale the gifts.

author: kaptain_zero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2011, 03:34:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 17, 2011, 01:06:03 amGood news indeed..... Looking forward to the final resolution.Kaptain "Perhaps I'd better bake up a humble pie.... just in case" Zero

author: ToddFun
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2011, 10:44:39 am
content: Dave, when do we get the product review for the 1272A?

author: smile
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2011, 01:55:17 am
content: I have to say some companies stand behind their productsIt's good that I got Agilent DMM too.And I must say that one company that does not care isEPSONYep "another BIG company that just sweeps problems under the carpet" You see I've been trying to buy this nice best their got A4 Scanner EPSON V750 Pro, its top of the line product quite expensive tooThis scanner price is:781.974 EUR1,136.58 USD704.615 GBPThe problem is I've bought 7 total scanners from EPSON and they all have manufacturing defect. Dust particles even 3mm in size in side the scanner on the glass and lurking inside the case, and the scanner glass is dirty/foggy.You can see what I mean by looking at my tread herehttp://www.photo-i.co.uk/BB/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=7050&st=0&sk=t&sd=aNow 7 out of 7 that 100% failure rate, and since the scanner is manufactured since 2006 either they made very large batch of bad scanners and want to "sweep it under the carpet" or EPSON doesn't even care they make shit product nowdays.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2011, 02:23:25 am
content: Call me lucky, I own one Epson Perfection 610, about 200EUR, still lives and I do the cleaning every 2-3 years.Has a nice label at the back ( parts made in Japan) .

author: smile
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2011, 12:54:19 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on August 15, 2011, 02:23:25 amWell the problems seems related to EPSON V750 Pro the model with optical coating on everything, so I can't call you lucky.But if my local official distributor for EPSON V750 Pro refuses to sell you another sample then go figure...

author: PetrosA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2011, 01:46:36 pm
content: Every scanner I've owned or used (3 Agfas, 2 Linotypes and some "big boy" DTP flatbeds) have all needed to be cleaned from time to time. The top comes off and the glass and lenses get cleaned. There isn't a scanner made that doesn't suffer from dust and, in fact, that's why drum scanners use oil - to hide dust and air bubbles.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2011, 04:02:47 pm
content: One last message about the flatbed scanners,I got my scanner back to 2000, and I call my self lucky due the fact that it is build with Japanese parts,even if it was assembled out of Japan.They had the honesty to print such a detail, even at label of it, at the back.At the same time ( back them ), the HP ones was assembled in China, with lost of dust particles and dirty glass.The specific Epson flatbed scanner, comes with metallic base, and metallic moving parts,and so it survived until today, and looks immortal.I did payed the price premium back then, I was able to get two plastic ones, instead of the Epson.But I love quality.I was trusting HP about printers back to 2001, the 970CXi ( 382 EUR) it is an amazing tool, like the specific Epson scanner,but this days everything that they make looks to have a very short life, something that I do hate.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 02:43:51 am
content: That serial number looks to have been tampered with, we'll have to hope it's the legitimate item.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 03:23:35 am
content: legitimate item ? All the way with pride and glory.Divide the 55.000 with 340 to find the price in Euro.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 03:29:21 am
content: Yes that is a sales receipt for an Epson scanner but what is there to say it is the receipt for the scanner with the tampered serial number? Who knows this could be just the surface of a great Mediterranean lifted scanner racket.See what happens when folks start assuming the worst and making accusations.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 03:34:53 am
content: Hey uncle I have great news for you, its time to get your first Agilent ..The U1272A with 100$ rebate = 240$It started from 1 of August..http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=GR&lc=eng&ckey=2060152&id=2060152&cmpid=zzfindhhcashback

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 03:44:42 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on August 16, 2011, 03:34:53 amYou really should do your research before making your pronouncements.*This offer isavailable in US and Canada only. For questions or feedback, please email us at hhcashback@agilent.comThat is hardly great news for Europe or Australia, now is it?

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 04:10:14 am
content: I love your positive way of thinking..I would suggest you to make your first American friend.He will help you out if you are determined to get it.Currently I had be helped out by a Japanese , an Russian, an Australian, an American doctor, and from a person in India.Just find an American .. LOL

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 04:27:36 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on August 16, 2011, 04:10:14 amI would suggest your learnt some manners. You should try it some time, with practice you may even be capable of polite response.And where is the consistency, you moan senseless about lack of European support agencies and a few posts later you all for grey market purchasing.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 06:06:36 am
content: No you will learn some manners because you had find the internet as a way to kill you time hidden behind a keyboard by moving your finger in the face of unknown people because no one can stay next to you even for two minutes.From today you will be totally ignored, yes your little tiny ego, and all the myths that you have build in your head,from the times that you was some how active.One non existing world bypassed from the feature that you are unable to follow.Your expertness so far is just to post piss poor dialogs and criticize everything that moves,where is a project from your hands ?Where is a picture of a technical thing that bothers you?Nothing positive from your side, nothing positive to justify the reason of why you are even here.I can not even describe you as common troll, those who acts as trolls are smart enough to hide their trails.From today speak with the wall, he is the only one who has the patience to tolerate the what ever peculiarities you carry in your head.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 06:29:12 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on August 16, 2011, 06:06:36 amLOL. This from the guy so desperate he has to reply to his own posts for company.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=660.msg59149#msg59149

author: smile
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 10:38:52 pm
content: Quote from: PetrosA on August 15, 2011, 01:46:36 pmThese all 7 scanners were NEW not used old scanners that should require cleaning. They are top of the line meaning I pay price premium for them I just cant get the next model up.In fact no other manufacturer at same price level or slightly above has any competition to offer something I could get instead of V750 Pro. That is the main problem.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 10:55:05 pm
content: Quote from: smile on August 16, 2011, 10:38:52 pmThen you have answered your own question. If V750 is YOUR only option your best advice is to accept PetrosA's advice and accept you will need to clean your unit periodically and perhaps at initial use.QuoteA problem which is budget related and one which has had a workable solution offered.