my own original oscillator - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 10:12:20 pm
content: Have u guys got an original oscillator design to your name? I do.What makes it different is it has no transistor in it, and its based apon the two pathways from + to - current dividing with each other.The resistors and capacitors you pick seem to have an oscillation at a specific voltage, but I dont fully understand it yet, and its actually a little unstable, as oscillators tend to be, especially if they are just wired together dodgily. I have to put more together before ill be able to control the output frequency.Then im onto the rest of my computer.</img>

author: ArthurDent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 10:31:14 pm
content: Is this posted in the wrong section?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 10:32:47 pm
content: I dont get you guys, whats wrong with this post - just tell me and be honest!!!

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 10:38:59 pm
content: Nice little avant-garde art project; I give it a 6/10. I like the cryptic drawing, the complete lack of explanation or narration, and the poorly lit, blurry, handheld and letterboxed video.What's an oscillator?Tim

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 10:41:21 pm
content: Ok, so obviously I think you guys know what your doing, so this kind of behaviour on the internet I have no clue about.Someone tell me whats really going on here, instead of these lame lies!

author: ChristofferB
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 11:02:07 pm
content: Even the best, most thourough project would be dismissed if the documentation didn't reflect the work. From your post, I have absolutely no clue what you're trying to communicate - your schematic uses non-standard symbols, and there aren't any component names or values on it.If you've made something cool it'd be a shame if it got dismissed due to a confusing schematic, and if you haven't, it'd be a shame that noone would be able to help you troubleshoot it.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 11:07:06 pm
content: If you are wanting someone to replicate your work, I assume the circuit is symmetrical where R1 matches R1. What are the values of the Rs and Cs you are using? Are the two + and - tie together and you are just running it from a 9V battery?

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 11:34:24 pm
content: Yeh you can make it, just remember it came from a dude from eev blog, dont be a complete thief about it plz.The 2 positives are just 1 positive,the 2 negatives are just one negative.Im not sure what the capacitors should be, but they are the same.With the resistor values, the numbers are the multiples they have to be of the same resistor, in SERIES. not parallel.Trust me, it should work on a circuit simulator if the simulator is any good.You may not get it running at first, and depending on the values youll get a solid hz out of it, apart from instability.It has a running state, but it also has other states, if you knock it around a bit, and play with the continuity it should start feeding back, but if the circuit is in right, and the voltage is correct, it should work.Also, I hate to admit it, but ive only got it working with the LEDS IN. not out, they give the oscillator more constrast but there might be a way to fix it.Id love it if you continue the thread with your rebuild of it!! ill be here to help if you do.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 11:45:25 pm
content: So example, the resistors are 1K, 2K and 4K. But you are making for example a 4K from 4pcs of a 1K in series?

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 11:55:05 pm
content: yes. 4 in series.but i used these exact ones->the cap has written on it -> 63v 1 uF. Its only a little small thing. and its electrolytic, but i doubt being electrolytic matters.If u run a 9v into the oscillator, with these ohms and farads in it, it should be about 6'sh hz, a fairly quick one, but visible.You may as well wire it up, itll only take 5 minutes. If its not responding, I can give you more help for sure.EDIT! sorry I have to explain one thing, theres one slight difference, and with that resistor theres 2 in parallel going into where it says 1 in series, 1 on the other pole and 2 in series on the one that listed four... oops, i just double checked the circuit, and its chirpin' away fine as i type this.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 11:56:48 pm
content: Quote from: ArthurDent on July 06, 2019, 10:31:14 pmI don't think it's even good enough for the dodgy group.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 12:25:29 am
content: Lets start by just redrawing your schematics based on the information you have provided. Have a look and see if these are actually what you have built.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 12:30:37 am
content: Youve got the diodes in right, but I think that your reconfiguation of the junctions isnt correct.The pole on the discharging capacitor(2k) is there to stop current from the power(1k) from reaching the other power(1k).Thats actually a serious modification, im not sure if that is equivilent.You only want the power that goes through the capacitor, to cause current division at the other side, otherwise it will constantly deaden it.Junction order is important, especially with a bare wire to the capacitor. You need to change the junction or you are stealing power from the capacitor line which you shouldnt!!!Yes. That other wire only belongs to the discharge loop, not the capacitor through current. Indeed its true.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 12:35:49 am
content: I am just redrawing what you drew in your original post. All three schematics are the same.If we take it one step further, and separate your two divider networks, we end up with the following.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 12:45:30 am
content: Based on your markups, do you feel the left two circuits are electrically equivalent to the two on the right?

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 01:03:40 am
content: I have to say im not sure of this simplification.Im not sure, you got me thinking, it might be equivilent , i could be wrong.

author: ArthurDent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 01:20:39 am
content: I cleaned your circuit up so it will now work. Relax and enjoy.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 01:24:34 am
content: I dont know what your laughing about, ive got a video of it running on the first post.And, Id say it IS equivilent, so try it. But the way i was thinking about it, i prefered it the other way.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 01:34:21 am
content: Well how do you think I faked it, I never have even heard of self blinking leds, it has a buzzer on it, but the buzzer itself is turning on and off. Explain that one.

author: ArthurDent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 01:35:14 am
content: My type of circuits (with no transistors either) works just fine thanks to really neat wiring like yours.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR_1Tui2Ods.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 01:39:08 am
content: Thats beautiful work there.But why cant I express myself here? Are u guys just mucking around?? is this some gang entry identification test or something?

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 01:49:07 am
content: Quote from: krayvonk on July 07, 2019, 01:34:21 amIf it's the type of buzzer that's meant to be powered with DC rather than the passive type, your buzzer is the likely source of the oscillation.Added: Do the LEDs blink without the buzzer?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 01:54:02 am
content: Quote from: krayvonk on July 07, 2019, 01:03:40 amJust assume for now that they are. Based on this, does it make any sense to you that you have formed an oscillator?If we assume then that you have indeed built some sort of oscillator, then the schematic you have drawn is not what you have built. Time for some clear pictures or for you to recheck your work.In the fuzzy video you linked, it appears you have the two LEDs in parallel, possibly back to back.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 01:55:56 am
content: No Joe! Its a go ahead, I say its equivilent. I like your new spin on the design.PPl that just dont want to try things...Yeh but the buzzer has a diode in it, it just went in by accident. The other side is diodeless (double dioded) but I dont think it matters.I actually want it without the diode as well.

author: ArthurDent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 02:04:15 am
content: QuoteO.K. then, here's a simpler oscillator that has no neon bulbs, no buzzer, and actually works.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 02:08:44 am
content: Hey ArthurDent, what is the mystery component. Im not experienced enough to know yet.And loved the vid thanks, felt all warm and fuzzy inside.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 02:13:31 am
content: Quote from: krayvonk on July 07, 2019, 01:55:56 amIf there is a buzzer, add it to your drawing. Clear pictures, etc. I have no problem trying to replicate your circuit but the first thing is I need a VERY clear understanding of what you have built. As it stands now, I do not have that. What you have shown in your first schematic shouldn't oscillate. Then again, I have made a few oscillators that I would have thought wouldn't have as well.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 02:13:58 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 07, 2019, 02:12:37 amTunnel diode. Gunn diode is another story.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 02:20:56 am
content: How does it show it doesnt oscillate. Theres just another way to look at the circuit than the way I was when I designed it.Heres the issue at hand.charges capacitor+ _w__________| |____out__ -capacitor discharges on release of the positive pole, battery bypasses capacitor, i dont want this._______| z+ __w_______|__| |__|__out___ -extra negative connection supplied, now current that takes the discharge path will be diverted from the output.-z____|__| z+ __________|__| |__|__out___ -so, the issue u were having with me is this is equivilent:-z| _______| | z+ __|________|__| |__|__out___ -Im saying no worries bro you might be right.And why it works more info:this is ONE HALF.INVERTER WIRE-| -| z| | _______| | | z+ |_|________|__| |__|__out___ -Then the second half is the first halfs inverter, and vice versa.So they are inverting each other.-z|------------------ feedback inversion|-----------------+ (gutter pole, what i called it, in the position you put it)|------___ |___ ||------|| -(gutter pole - where u put it.)| z| | _______| | | z+ |_|________|__| |__|__gotofeedbackinverter___ -So you can see quite humourously, that each side is inverting the other.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 02:28:04 am
content: Gaaahhh! Please don't do that. Just sketch and photograph, like you did before.Yes, there is a slight element of "hazing" or "jumping in" going on here but what did you expect, really? There are thousands of examples of correctly sketched simple schematics on this site to look at, there is even "DaveCAD" . So when you come onto a new block you really should at least try to speak the idiom, feel me? Use standard symbols so we can understand what you are communicating, and be ready to put up with a little mockery, as you are learning.What does your "buzzer" element do if it is just connected directly to the battery?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 02:36:33 am
content: Quote from: krayvonk on July 07, 2019, 02:20:56 amBased on your original drawing, if you followed along, there is no feedback, only two LEDs in parallel. Both LEDs will behave the same. So there is something wrong.I'm sorry but I do not understand your last drawings or explanation. Take some clear pictures of your setup and we can start there.A few people were trying to make some simple oscillators a while back. G0HZU posted one that was pretty interesting. I took a crack at it as well.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/el-cheapo-oscillator/

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 02:38:43 am
content: Warning its got my cringey voice in it, but here it actually doesnt osc at first here and you can hear the buzzer by itself.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHiS8HLVkFs.When the top row goes off, the bottom row discharges, when the bottom row goes off, the top row discharges... if you make it discharge quicker than it charges, then you get this action happening.I know its funny when you take it from a steady state, how does 1 side rule over the other, but its equally true that it oscillates in this fashion as just stands still.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 02:43:10 am
content: Sorry, I can't tell anything further from that video. Is there a reason you are reluctant to show a decent picture of it or to draw a complete schematic?

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 02:46:44 am
content: ah dont worry about it. I shouldnt be letting my tech get stolen anyway.Your better off with transistors anyway, who cares.Didnt even try it...

author: ArthurDent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 03:05:34 am
content: QuoteThe mystery component is indeed a tunnel diode which doesn't behave like a normal diode or other 2-terminal device. Having a negative resistance region allows it to oscillate without feedback. I had a high end scope years a number of years ago that used a tunnel diode in the trigger circuit. Here's a link to a video that will explain its operation.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 04:13:15 am
content: Quote from: krayvonk on July 07, 2019, 02:46:44 amCorrect, I did not try it. Mainly because I know the outcome by just looking at your circuit. It's possible you have something else going on that you don't understand. This buzzer you mention on the side may be part of it.The circuit would be easy enough for you to model in SPICE to help you understand what is going on. Maybe once you have a better idea of why it oscillates, you can report back and we can try to replicate your findings.I'm not seeing the whole "stolen tech". There is nothing novel about turning on a couple of LEDs, which is what you currently are showing. If you could come up with something new and wanted to try and patent it, you would need to explain it.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 04:19:35 am
content: It looks funny how there is a positive right near the negative and it sneakily looks like voltage loss.When the capacitor is empty it charges through, only once that pole is blocked does it dump out the back pole, and thats so i dont turn off the other side UNLESS its using the through cap going pole.(*)the resistor balance 4,2,1, makes sure the discharge "loop" is never taken over 2&1. and the 1, through capacitor line will always overscede the 2, the voltage loss pole. the loss pole is activated to make sure i dont run around the cap and cause it to still the inversion at a constant power!(*)the 4 resistor, the heavy one, cant be too heavy because its the discharge speed, it was constantly stressing me out because it might not have worked.You temporarily had me befuddled when you simplified my topology, and it even made me understand it better in the end thanks!ur circuit is equivilent i was making a mistake.(*) same point in different words.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 04:31:16 am
content: Quote from: krayvonk on July 07, 2019, 04:19:35 amYou should use common terms. Poles and zeros may mean something different to me than you. The way you use poles and back poles, it means nothing to me.There is no discharge path with what you show, shy of removing the power. The caps will both charge at the same rate and reach a steady state value. At that time, they will both have the same value. That much should be obvious. As a mater of fact, you could calculate all of this easy enough.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 04:37:06 am
content: Your thinking is correct on that one, and both caps will fill and will not toggle, it does actually do that sometimes. and it just turns off, even with the battery connected, it is one of its possible states. Also probably even blended 50/50 travel happens too, and pessimisticly you can not bother with it.There is a way to relay-start it on so one cap starts charged and one starts empty, but funnily it tends to oscillate without it, and u can connect and itll find the imbalance itself.When I say discharge path, i literally just mean putting the capacitor in a little loop. and it needs this guard "positive" to make sure it never takes the route of 4 resistance in the loop, over 2 resistance to the guard "positive". (therefore its variable what hits the opposing "positive" to load thieve from the other side/phase.) - from this sides negative. which puts the other cap into discharge - (down its 4 resistor "loop", and its lucky it wasnt too much resistance to slow its discharge down so slow that it didnt work.)So effectively the battery is changing which side its going, one side always has a bigger percentage than the other, and it oscillates.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 04:49:28 am
content: It would be easy enough to short one cap manually on startup. The other will reach steady state and when you remove the short across the other, it too will reach steady state.If you don't own a decent camera, no problem. You obviously have a PC of sorts. Load up Linear Tech's free SPICE. Enter your schematic. You can include switches and what not to try and get it to start. See if you can show any case where it will oscillate. If you do, then just post that circuit and we can go from there.If you followed that link to look at some of the oscillators, an easier one is just using your resistor and one LED. A bit faster than 1Hz.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 04:52:18 am
content: Controlled shorting yes.I dont know if it works in your simulator, but if I coded mine myself It would probably work.That Falstad one looks like it could do it, needs to be real time.https://www.falstad.com/circuit/<- i dont know how to do it...

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 05:03:21 am
content: ".... and pessimisticly you can not bother with it."That's a common comment I will see with the uneducated perpetual motion crowd. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and try to help you understand what you are seeing but comments like this put you in a different bracket.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 05:12:47 am
content: it said wire loop detected? geeze this doesnt handle junctions very well...

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 05:22:46 am
content: I can make it work in a simulator, but not with LED's. as such I would assume It would not work if you replaced the LED's,It does require the LED component to act like a neon bulb, draw no current until it reaches a certain voltage and then suddenly turn on and drop there voltage, the capacitance then increases the voltage seen by the other element and trips it,This sounds like the LED vendor may have done something non linear inside the LED to prevent it faintly glowing until enough voltage was present on the input.Based on your current design, a 5V supply should give about a 55Hz flash rate, however it does require an external stimuli such as the switch in the picture to trip it into action.A self flashing LED would actually be a good example of a device that could cause this behavior, the switch that controls the LED would only power on once the voltage rises high enough, draw a sudden gulp of current, and increase the voltage across the other elementThere may be some very marginal case where the voltage gain of a normal LED may be able to cause this, but not yet been able to simulate this.To the OP:http://tinyurl.com/yxpezhc3a falstad circui link for the simulation I have runLong link below for later visitor:Code:http://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html?cct=$+1+0.000005+10.20027730826997+50+5+43%0Ag+64+256+64+272+0%0Ag+-144+144+-160+144+0%0AR+256+144+288+144+0+0+40+5+0+0+0.5%0AR+64+48+64+16+0+0+40+5+0+0+0.5%0A162+64+96+128+96+2+default-led+1+0+0+0.01%0A162+-16+208+64+208+2+default-led+1+0+0+0.01%0Ar+64+96+64+48+0+1000%0Ar+64+208+64+256+0+1000%0Ac+128+96+128+208+0+0.000001+0.2285886398764465%0Ac+-16+208+-16+96+0+0.000001+-0.22858863987272304%0Aw+64+96+-16+96+0%0Aw+64+208+128+208+0%0Ar+128+96+192+96+0+4000%0Ar+-80+208+-16+208+0+4000%0Aw+128+208+192+208+0%0Aw+192+96+192+144+0%0Aw+192+144+192+208+0%0Ar+192+144+256+144+0+2000%0Aw+-16+96+-80+96+0%0Aw+-80+96+-80+144+0%0Aw+-80+144+-80+208+0%0Ar+-80+144+-144+144+0+2000%0Ar+368+208+368+256+0+2000%0Aw+368+160+368+208+0%0Aw+368+96+368+160+0%0Aw+448+96+448+144+0%0Ar+512+96+512+48+0+2000%0Aw+512+144+512+208+0%0Aw+512+96+512+144+0%0Ar+368+208+432+208+0+4000%0Ar+448+96+512+96+0+4000%0Ac+432+160+368+160+0+0.000001+-1.0145511033526469%0Ac+448+144+512+144+0+0.000001+0.3143925517936923%0Ar+512+208+512+256+0+1000%0Ar+368+96+368+48+0+1000%0AR+368+48+368+16+0+0+40+5+0+0+0.5%0AR+512+48+512+16+0+0+40+5+0+0+0.5%0Ag+368+256+368+272+0%0Ag+512+256+512+272+0%0Aw+432+160+432+208+0%0As+432+208+432+272+0+1+true%0Ag+432+272+432+288+0%0A187+432+208+512+208+0+1000+1000000+1.2+0.000009999999999999999%0A187+368+96+448+96+0+1000+1000000+1.2+0.000009999999999999999%0Ao+42+64+0+12290+1.2000880957814164+0.0001+0+2+42+3%0Ao+43+64+0+12298+1.2000880957812254+0.0001+1+2+43+3%0AKey points:If the circuit is not triggered, the LED's would be sitting at roughly 210mV each,the circuit is relying on one LED to start conducting at a certain voltage, draw a chunk of current to discharge the other sides capacitor, then for that LED to fall under a certain voltage and stop conductingWhen it stops conducting, the now partially discharged capacitor gives enough of a delta across the other LED to turn it on and form an oscillationSo there is something to it, just not sure what in an LED would give such a sharp transition,

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 05:37:18 am
content: Is there any place you can go on the circuit to get the oscillation and get rid of diode?

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 05:42:55 am
content: Please draw the correct diagram, I have followed your original diagram as best I can, and played with it until I could come up with something that seemed to make the circuit repeatable.I made the simulation because I am honestly trying my best to understand how this is working.Even if you just edit the values or connections on the simulation I have made, please use "File - Export as Link" and post the long link here for the corrected version

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 05:53:39 am
content: Well thankyou. Im too confused already, the neonbulb blasta was insane.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 08:13:49 am
content: I managed to quickly reproduce the krayvonk "oscillator" in my lab. What is causing the oscillation is the buzzer itself.It works just like a neon oscillator. The buzzer has a region of "negative resistance". It starts buzzing with a voltage that is higher than the voltage with which it stops. So the buzzer draws a very low current while the capacitor charges up. Then the buzzer buzzes and suddenly draws more current. The capacitor discharges through the buzzer until it stops buzzing and the cycle goes again and again.Mine is a 3v buzzer. But it buzzes with less than that as seen in the schematic.The frequency of the "oscillator" is dependent on the supply. The LEDs of our clever engineer must be somewhere in series with the current drawn by the buzzer.Have a good night and stay beautiful.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 01:47:05 pm
content: Great. You stole his tech.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 04:15:02 pm
content: Another cause of oscillation in a simple LED circuit with no other active devices, is if one of the LEDs is faulty with a cracked bond to the die forming a thermal oscillator. As long as the bond wire makes contact when the LED is at room temperature, current can pass and the die and bond wire will warm up, and heat the surrounding epoxy. If differential thermal expansion opens up the crack, it will break the circuit until the LED has cooled down again. The result is a faulty LED that when fed through a normal current limiting resistor will flash or blink with a frequency anywhere from a couple of hundred millihertz to several hertz.You most often see this effect in one of an array of paralleled cheap LEDs that have been mechanically abused e.g. by bending and/or twisting their leads too close to the encapsulation, e.g the typical construction of dollar store LED torches. However its far more common for the damage to simply result in a dead, open circuit LED rather than a self-flashing one. It also tends to be fairly sensitive to further abuse - straightening or re-bending the leads tends to change the flashing fault to totally dead, but its vanishingly rare for the reverse to happen.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 04:39:04 pm
content: Quote from: Rerouter on July 07, 2019, 05:22:46 amIf a spark gap, rather than the LEDs are used like you suggest, you could cut the circuit in half and still make it work.Maybe go further and use a single gap.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark-gap_transmitter

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 06:59:01 pm
content: Electrolytics operated at reversed polarity may also cause all kinds of funny effects...

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 07:09:33 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on July 07, 2019, 01:47:05 pmI'm the next Steve Jobs.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 12:25:28 am
content: Walking in the foot steps of Hz, here's my transistorless oscillator made from an Autolite 65 spark plug, two resistors and a capacitor running at roughly 1Hz. It's my original idea so don't be stealing it.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 01:40:02 am
content: hams in your area must love you!

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 01:48:46 am
content: I think bsfeechannel has the correct explanation. Ian.M has also described "oscillators" that I have encountered. Faulty connections to the die that are intermittent can really drive one crazy. It's good to have substitute parts to swap out when puzzling events like that happen.But I love a ring oscillator. Especially when they run on "free energy" LOL.

author: ArthurDent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 02:47:51 am
content: joeqsmith, you stole my idea of a spark gap oscillator! I have the capacitor I used in the circuit as proof!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 03:14:10 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on July 08, 2019, 01:40:02 amI just saw on this site that ham radio was dead in 2019.Quote from: ArthurDent on July 08, 2019, 02:47:51 amNice! Every hobbyist needs a few of these in there stash.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 09:16:33 am
content: Haha you guys are really funny.Thanks Joe Smith again, for redrawing the schematic to a more professional topology. I saved a png to my hard disk just for something to remember.I dont know what's going on, I dont even know what im supposed to post next to be on this forum, we dont share what we know? I dont understand.The spark gap oscillator was great, that must be the simplest oscillator of all.AlsoToken, thanks for showing me your work, too, but this electronics business doesnt seem like programming the way ppl are constantly kidding around I had no idea about it going to be this way.I see that you have a capacitor based oscillator as well!!!! but urs looks dif.(better) thanks.So my idea isnt new? I wish ppl would just tell me...

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 09:52:48 am
content: Currently the majority of the thread seems to suspect it is either the buzzer being the non linear element or that there is a defect in a LED that is letting it act like a spark gap or to be more precise. Similar to a bimetallic regulator where it heats up breaks connection then cools down and repeatsRemove the buzzer and replace both LEDs with new ones and we can rule out both of those options.Most of the derailment of the thread came about because at first glance the circuit does not make sense in how it could oscillate. It takes something misbehaving to fit most of the current expected thoughts on how it operatesAs such I think it triggered some of the people that reguarly have to debunk impossible devices such as free energy scam circuits. And in such cases engineers tend to attack with sarcasm.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 11:13:48 am
content: Quote from: Rerouter on July 08, 2019, 09:52:48 amI'm just in it for the entertainment factor now. I'll admit, I'm easily amused.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 11:36:35 am
content: Quote from: krayvonk on July 08, 2019, 09:16:33 amObviously the redrawn schematics still don't match what you have built as I can clearly see two LEDs in parallel and you mention a buzzer of sorts.There's a simpler oscillator that could be made with a spark gap, had you taken the time to read that link I provided. I am guessing your reason for posting here isn't to try and learn something but no matter.The spark plug will have some capacitance. Just using a single resistor in series with the plug will have the same effect. The capacitor will charge to a voltage where the gap breaks down and the cycle repeats. To run at 1Hz would require a VERY large resistor.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 11:44:08 am
content: If you guys want to continue the trend, I actually got banned off every forum on the internet. You guys arent like that tho... right?

author: MagicSmoker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 11:51:20 am
content: Quote from: krayvonk on July 08, 2019, 11:44:08 amAs someone once told me when I was being especially salty:If you meet an asshole in the morning, you've met an asshole.If you meet assholes all day long, you are the asshole.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 11:58:15 am
content: Unless you break the rules of the forum, your unlikely to be banned, things like personal attacks, spamming etc, that will get you banned, being a beginner who doesn't know all the lingo, should be fine

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 01:14:28 pm
content: My first sub-Hz oscillator consisted of 2 components and goes back to when I was barely a teen. I connected the coil of a relay in series with the normally closed contacts of same relay. A big electrolytic capacitor in parallel with the coil sets the frequency of oscillation.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 01:52:20 pm
content: Quote from: krayvonk on July 08, 2019, 11:44:08 amAre you telling us that you are actually a troll, and are disappointed that we did not get excited enough about your posts?

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 02:50:51 pm
content: The funny thing about being a troll, is trolls dont even know what one is.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 03:34:25 pm
content: Quote from: krayvonk on July 08, 2019, 02:50:51 pmBut others do, and can decide to withdraw from the dialog.Which I hereby do.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 03:39:22 pm
content: Quote from: krayvonk on July 08, 2019, 11:44:08 amyou are too innocent and cute from the sound of your text yet have less clue what everybody try to tell you here. so i guess you are very young but yet know how to hide your age in your profile. you are enthusiastic like i was when i found area of circle is not pi.r.squared many years ago, unfortunately there was no internet back then so i cant publish my finding right away to tell to people, now i've forgotten how i derived the formula from the first principle (or integration cant really remember) i've retried several times in not too recently but failed, but nevermind i guess everybody is fine with pi.r.squared. but unfortunately with existence of internet, you can get smashed instantly when you try to publish not a proven science. i guess if internet was there back then, i will got smashed too by seasoned mathematicians and figured why my derivation was wrong, but i never got the chance.so yes this forum is much more relaxed in term of banning but you have to take everything with grain and salt and then decide with your wits if you think you are still right but later i bet you'll think otherwise. the fact that you've excluded the buzzer in your circuit shows that you have much to learn. buzzer is a circuit element inductor, and inductor with capacitor may form resonance circuit. what you've presentated in OP is not a proven science and lack of information. there is another type of simplest self oscillating circuit consisting a single bjt (picture below) you can google youtube for single transistor oscillator, but nobody cares to steal the idea because it depends on undeterministic floating ions or something, unstable and less configurable. people prefer stable and reproducable, and adjustable to greater frequency range as a general purpose oscillator. fwiw..

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 03:58:16 pm
content: Hey if its the way things go around a place, I guess I better not get my toes in the water, let it be, think before i act, not worry about it, let sleeping dogs lie, keep to myself.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 04:06:37 pm
content: you may get some recognition around here...https://www.kidzworld.com/forums/have a nice sleep and good luck

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 05:58:21 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 08, 2019, 12:25:28 amI would steal it if I had 2kV lying around, and, oh, a 100Meg resistor.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 06:07:38 pm
content: Quote from: GK on July 08, 2019, 01:14:28 pmI remember them selling those as a replacement for the old bi-metal flasher relays on cars! The flash rate wasn't sensitive to load current (number of direction indicator bulbs) so could be used with caravans. The bi-metal ones were pretty reliable in other respects though, and were responsible for the original ticking noise from the dashboard, faithfully carried forward to this day.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 11:10:00 pm
content: Quote from: Wimberleytech on July 08, 2019, 05:58:21 pmThe spark plug was customized to achieve the lower breakdown voltage. I am working on the patent for it now.

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 11:21:42 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 08, 2019, 11:10:00 pmDon't divulge any further information about it then...if you are serious about patenting.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 12:08:03 am
content: I am making claims for not just this spark plug but for all gaps. I plan to patent not just this particular gap, but all gaps. I also plan to patent the use of my custom spark gap, not only for this oscillator, but for all applications I feel can benefit. My technique of using a hammer is very novel. I'm sure it will be awarded and then I will sell the idea to a large company and I'll be set for life.If that doesn't work out, maybe I can patent an LED oscillator.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 01:04:15 am
content: I understand that. An rc oscillator if it were possible is pretty much a base unit, unpatentable, like a triangle for example."You cant use that shape, I patented it dammit." I agree with you.

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 01:26:21 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 09, 2019, 12:08:03 amLOL...OK. Let me know when you assert it. I will be your expert witness...that is my business. I never lose. Please put the hammer in a secure location out of the public eye. It will be important later.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 02:02:10 am
content: Hey krayvonk! Don't get discouraged. Most of us here have built simple oscillators that we didn't fully understand at one time or another.Trouble is, we were trying to build amplifiers.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 02:03:14 am
content: Im sure you guys aren't struggling to build anything. And you dont need any help from me.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 02:13:09 am
content: give it one last beauty shot.// -+// zz// ||// ||// ---------// _| |_// | | | |// | | | |// | | | |// | = = |// z | | z// |_| |_|// ---------// ||// ||// zz// +-

author: ArthurDent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 03:22:52 am
content: Cleaned up and a few parts added for good measure.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 03:27:15 am
content: Hang on, that ascii IS BEAUTIFUL.Anyone here mastered pneumatics?!!??, its still a dodgy dream in my head.

author: TheHolyHorse
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 04:48:50 am
content: It's just air nothing dodgy about that

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 07:01:29 am
content: Pnuematics is just a bunch of math. I am familiar with most of it. Im not sure your "mastered" means the same as mine. But ask away.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 01:27:07 am
content: Quote from: Wimberleytech on July 09, 2019, 01:26:21 amWhile my hammer is the preferred embodiment, the patent is written to be very broad. It should be obvious to one skilled in the art that pliers, screwdrivers, wrenches and rocks could also be used to adjust the gap. I should be able to prevent anyone from using a spark gap for any purpose in the future without paying me royalties.Quote from: krayvonk on July 09, 2019, 01:04:15 amThat is a very good point but as I have tried to explain that the gap I show is indeed a capacitor. An air gap style capacitor is also a spark gap. I have included this in my patent.If you really believe that an RC oscillator can't be built, you are not paying attention. So watch and learn.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 04:33:08 am
content: So could we make an oscillator using an LED, with no transistor or spark gap? Maybe.Feel free to repeat this experiment if you like as I am not doing anything magic and no free energy was used. Basically, I have a 2.4Meg resistor connected to a couple of back to back diodes that are in series. Two were used for demonstrating changing the polarity but are not needed. The other side of the diode pair connects to ground through a 100 ohm. There's a 0.001uF from the high side of the pair to ground. The scope is across the 100 ohm. The voltage is increased until the reversed biased diode goes into avalanche.It's a sort of chaotic oscillator. The diode that is operating in avalanche does not emit any light visible by my eyes.**** Corrected values ****

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 07:26:13 am
content: Yes, I see, your telling me the led is adding another variable to the situation. Got to be more careful about things...

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 10:35:20 am
content: Rerouter.I do have an important beginner question.What is the most analogous capacitor in pneumatics, and is it trickier to use?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 11:33:00 am
content: Quote from: krayvonk on July 10, 2019, 10:35:20 amAn accumulator (tank, vessel) would be comparable to a capacitor, where a restrictor (orifice, hole) would be a resistor. Smaller the hole, the higher the resistance. Larger the tank, higher the capacitance. Tubing for example could be a accumulator or restrictor, depending how it is used. Not sure what the tricky part would be.An example would be the air shift on my motorcycle. Here you can see the accumulator (capacitor) which is storing the gas for the shift cylinder. In this case, the shift happens very faster than the regulator can respond. The accumulator is downstream from the regulator and is larger than the cylinder. Similar to a bulk capacitor.****I have added a view looking from the right side of the bike to show the shift cylinder.Quote from: krayvonk on July 10, 2019, 07:26:13 amObviously, you need to be accurate when describing a circuit or no one will be able to understand and follow you (assuming that is your goal). Of course, if you like to troll about UFOs and circuits, fuzzy pictures and inaccurate documents are the way to go. Just depends what you are after.I look at EVERY part in a circuit as a variable. That's not a bad thing. They all have tolerances and such. It's up to the designer to account for all of this.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 12:04:45 pm
content: By shift cylinder you mean pneumatic transmission? If thats what it is, thats pretty amazing, never heard of it before.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 03:34:52 pm
content: Quote from: krayvonk on July 10, 2019, 12:04:45 pmIt's pneumatic-driven shifting of a mechanical (gearwheel-based) gearbox.

author: ArthurDent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 04:10:43 pm
content: QuoteSome transmissions use fluid amplifiers to shift but there are also fluid oscillators with no moving part in the usual sense. Check this link and note the feedback loops that make this oscillate.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 06:00:42 pm
content: Then there is even just structural fluid and air oscillators. Generally used for flow measurement. You run airor water past an obstacle and you get an oscillating vortex with a frequency proportional to the flow rate.https://www.enggcyclopedia.com/2011/07/vortex-flow-meter/As to pnumatics. At a simple level anythere there is volume is a capacitor. Anywhere there is a restriction is a resistor. And any gas with mass acts like an inductor. 1 way valves are like diodes. You loose some pressure passing through them.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 11:33:25 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on July 10, 2019, 03:34:52 pmThat is correct.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 11:55:10 pm
content: That oscillator is the simplest machine ive ever seen!! thanks for showing. Capacitors seem one ended in pneumatics, but in electricity they seem 2 ended to me. Hmm, I just had a burst of inspiration to try and make a pneumatic oscillator, but I guess one thing at a time.Im finding as I get older, my brain is working not as well, but things are getting easier to think about at the same time.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2019, 01:12:32 am
content: Pneumatic oscillator with tunable resonator:

author: TheHolyHorse
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2019, 03:58:13 pm
content: Quote from: krayvonk on July 10, 2019, 11:55:10 pmIt's two ended in pneumatics as well, think of the actual tank as the dielectric. So one end is connected to the pressurized side and the other is the atmosphere.

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2019, 10:14:25 pm
content: Hey guys, I got some good news. Ive got it oscillating without the diodes and the buzzer, but its very quiet, and its about 10hz but flickery, I can just pick it out with my eye.Whats this level of oscillation if you can *just* see it flickering on the led? I can see it from only dead on, but not from the side, and trust me im not tricking myself again!! the circuit was left on without my hand touching it, its NOT just dodgy connections! even tho it is very quiet.I need more time, if I end up posting it here working as good as a transistor one, wham im too good right?<EDIT> i just removed some power resistors and its confirmed. its flicky and about 10hz and i can see it from the side of the led now. video coming soon <EDIT>

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2019, 10:50:05 pm
content: Its not making a sound out of the speaker connected (not the buzzer anymore.)And I think theres no diodes in it, except for that led.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsmJoQCinHE&feature=youtu.be

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2019, 11:17:29 pm
content: I can hear it through the speaker, it sounds like really quiet thunder that slowly dies off, and on a good rekick, it lasts for quite a while but its dieing off.If I can improve the volume + evenness, maybe it could last for longer as well!And i can confirm that the diodes are unnescesary! =)

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2019, 11:40:18 pm
content: Most of us would describe your oscillator as a bad connection, or a noisy pot.

author: mdszy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 12:24:20 am
content: Randomly flickering LED does not an oscillator make...

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 12:31:46 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 10, 2019, 01:27:07 amWhy does your scope have Space Invaders at the bottom of the screen?

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 01:24:43 am
content: Quote from: IanB on July 18, 2019, 12:31:46 amTo scare away the tin foil hat wearers...

author: krayvonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 01:51:16 am
content: I just modified the resistor topology again, and its slightly better, but I got back from buying a pack of smegz from the local deli, and I got back and a wire was pulled out of its socket on my VPS! wheres my tin foil hat!!!