Paypal policy update - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 05:34:07 pm
content: I'm surprised that nobody posted about this yethttps://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-fullSpecifically:QuoteOuch! That's going to have a huge impact on Ebay sellers till Paypal is phased out...

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 05:37:00 pm
content: The greed at paypal staggers the imagination.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 06:29:43 pm
content: Amazon is basically one big "Buy It Now" site. I'm wondering when they will get into auctions to take on Ebay. If they cut out PayPal with less overhead than Ebay it could be interesting.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 06:51:31 pm
content: eBay doesn’t give a crap about auctions. They’d turn them off tomorrow if it didn’t lead to bad PRThis is to punish sellers selling dropshipped crap basically.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 07:29:20 pm
content: bah ... on Amazon there is a lot of crap and hoaxes.I cannot forget when I put a UNIX workstation for sale on eBay, and since there was also included the hard drive with all the software I found when I picked up the machine from a recycler, ... anyway, eBay blocked the auction for asking me clarification about the Copyright.Then I understood a jerk must have informed them about a suspicious software, something - illegal - he must have decided, and they wanted to investigate.On Amazon, you can sell whatever you want, and nobody claims.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 07:43:50 pm
content: Was that a Sun box? Sun since Oracle turned up are right wankers in that department. I had several copies of Solaris taken down.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 08:06:48 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 04, 2019, 07:43:50 pmSGI MIPS with a couple of Autodesk applications.Autodesk is not friendly about this.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 09:49:16 pm
content: Quote from: Jwalling on April 04, 2019, 05:34:07 pmAny plans for that or just your dreams?I would be glad if they ditched PP and allowed direct transfers like Ali but I'm not holding my breath, isn't PP and eBay basically one company?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 09:49:52 pm
content: Quote from: legacy on April 04, 2019, 08:06:48 pmAhh autodesk - explained. I think they outrank oracle in fuckityness.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 06:06:21 am
content: Quote from: Jwalling on April 04, 2019, 05:34:07 pmOuch is right! Thanks, Jay, for pointing this out. I hadn't read the details of the recent change.Quote from: magic on April 04, 2019, 09:49:16 pmMagic, you might want to consider checking your facts prior to bashing other forum members (perhaps it was just a case of "lost in translation"?). PayPal spun off from eBayalmost four years ago. eBay is rolling out theirown payment system.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 06:10:05 am
content: Quote from: TheSteve on April 04, 2019, 05:37:00 pmYes, it certainly does, especially with this bold move. eBay's no saint, either. Hopefully, they won't follow PayPal's lead.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 07:29:04 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on April 05, 2019, 06:06:21 amSorry, no offense meant and I sorta implied that I'm out of the loop. I haven't used eBay in years precisely because I refuse to even touch PayPal or credit cards.Will wait and see what they come up with and if it's any better.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 02:08:36 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 04, 2019, 06:51:31 pmI don't think you're getting it. This is bad for ALL sellers good or bad.You could sell a $5000 scope, and if it got damaged or lost in shipment you don't get the fees back (as if it wasn't painful enough losing it). Or a buyer just wanted to return it for no good reason other than they changed their mind; same thing.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 02:29:49 pm
content: I haven't had a single return or refund for over 15 years. I've sold around 2000 items £5 to £10k in value each.This 100% depends how you run your selling outfit.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 05:12:54 pm
content: Quote from: magic on April 05, 2019, 07:29:04 amNo worries. I hoped it was unintended. Thanks.Yeah, we'll just have to see how eBay's payment system works in reality. Although I haven't had anything that I've sold returned to me nor had to partially refund a buyer, I still don't like this concept. With all the competition that's been growing in online payments, it's very surprising that PayPal would do something like this. I guess they feel that they've got sufficient lock-in on their customers, though I'm unclear what would make them feel that way.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 07:13:24 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 05, 2019, 02:29:49 pmI occasionally refund a sale of brand new equipment when the buyer decides he bought the wrong thing/it's too complicated or something like that. I always deduct the shipping, now I'd have to deduct the PayPal fee, too. Probably most buyers have no idea PayPal takes a 3% fee on domestic and 4% on international payments.Jon

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 08:41:11 pm
content: I've had my eBay and PayPal accounts since 2008, I can't remember any point when either of them made changes to their policy that made things better. By now I've just about abandoned both, an occasional buy no more selling, when I do buy I always take the risk of paying by debit card rather than letting PayPay have anything out of it. Fortunately most sellers are more honest than the eBay or PayPal thieves.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 08:50:41 pm
content: TBH when shit has gone down between a buyer and myself they have been universally good.Example: some muppet forgot to collect his parcel which was delivered to an Argos store here in the UK. Argos didn't return the package to me as they were supposed to. So £80 worth of stuff. Ebay refunded him and let me keep the cash, no questions asked. Both of us happy.Got to be honest but I don't mind paying the fees. They are cheaper than auction houses, the market is much larger than anywhere else, the effort I have to expend is minimal and the resolution system is almost entirely fair from experience. I don't know what people are complaining about. More final value goes in my pocket than anywhere else. Selling stuff cash in hand is almost impossible now as well.Incidentally a few years ago I tried to do a section 75 claim on my credit card when something didn't turn up. Took 3 fucking months to resolve with the card company who were unhelpful, slow, rude and generally incompetent.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 09:21:44 pm
content: As far as I am concerned Paypal are crooks.I have never sold on eBay, only bought. I had my Paypal account linked to my bank account so I never had a Paypal balance. They just took the money from my bank account when I did any purchase.One day I bought something like eight items on eBay, nothing important. Paypal took the money from the bank and THEN blocked my account. Getting them to unblock my account was hell. They said I needed to provide this and that and the other to prevent money laundering. Ridiculous. If they were going to block my account they could have done it before taking the money from the bank but no, they took the money and then blocked it. As far as I am concerned they only had permission to take the money for the purpose of making payments I had ordered and if they weren't going to do it they should not have taken the money. I had to waste a lot of time apologizing to the sellers because I could not pay them. I was angry with the whole thing.When they finally returned my money two or three months later I cancelled the account. Crooks. That's what they are.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 08:15:21 am
content: I so wish a billionaire would set up a nonprofit to handle online transactions without political bias or excess tariffs. Obviously not "for free", but at rates that make it long-term maintainable, but without the pressure to make oodles of money to stockholders. (You don't need to necessarily invest a lot of money in it, but you do need a billionaire or a big banker (which nowadays are the same thing) to get the necessary banking contacts to make it work.)I'm using aLet's Encryptcertificate on my website, provided by the non-profitInternet Security Research Group (ISRG), except that my hosting provider handled all the details for me. My own computers run Linux, funded by both non-profits and companies alike (especially by employing long-term developers). This model is very far from perfect, but it works better than the gigacompany model Apple, Microsoft, eBay, Amazon, PayPal, etc. are implementing.I don't necessarily want someone do provide the same services for a lesser cut, but I want my payment processor to keep the heck away from any politics, and just do their job, without constantly worrying what their current value-extraction approach is. PayPal is already using their position to enforce their political stance, which to me is like Microsoft Word refusing to print a document because Microsoft thinks it contains right-wing hate-speech. Plus, their currency conversion rates are rather extreme.Seems to me a very limited charter nonprofit (that pays its employees well, but otherwise is not pressured to extract more and more value from their customers), would fit the position of a payment processor best. It is, after all, just a middleman between customers and commercial banks in different countries.Come to think about it, that could also solve the interbank transaction issues (IBAN etc.) countries worldwide are dealing with right now, what with the attemps to introduce politically-based policy in the mix.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 08:46:47 am
content: BACS / FP here do that. No fees. Bank to bank. Instant.User interface sucks. That’s the only problem.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 03:33:34 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on April 05, 2019, 09:21:44 pmSimilar story here, but I never bothered to unlock the account because they were obliged to return my funds within 6 months by law. It still even exists, I can't close it without unlocking even though there is no money on it. All mail about new rules goes straight to spamQuote from: Nominal Animal on April 06, 2019, 08:15:21 amEven allowing anyone to use the service for any purpose would be considered "political bias" these days because it reinforces existing power structures over the march of progressThe West is literally becoming "you are against the Nazis or you are with them". And perhaps for a reason too - ideas which ten years ago were confined to irrelevant blogs and obscure Internet forums are making it into comment sections of major websites and campaign speeches of (certain) presidents.Quote from: Nominal Animal on April 06, 2019, 08:15:21 amHard to argue against your comparison with Microsoft these daysAs for Linux, the corporate involvement sorta works because many of these companies are actually Linux users too or Linux system vendors so they care about keeping it usable. But there are others, like vendors contributing to Linux in order to sell their product, who churn out minimum effort crap, solutions too focused on their narrow area of interest, binary drivers, or somewhat user-hostile solutions which happen to be convenient for hardware vendors.So, fundamentally, I'm afraid there is no escape from the old rule: do it yourself or pay somebody to do it like you want it done.If you are lucky, you may find others with similar needs (like in open source software) or vote with your wallet.Which brings us to an online payment solution which I actually like and vote for myself, and that's bank transfers.It may sound unimaginable to some folks, but in most of Europe you cannot simply withdraw money from somebody else's account knowing only the account number. Yes, this implies that checks are virtually nonexistent here and so is check fraud. Oh horrorSo plain old wire transfers to a publicly known account number were the preferred method of payments like 10 years ago and still are used widely. Nowadays, banks also introduced "instant transfers" to business accounts within the same bank with the extra convenience that the business can submit payment details to the bank's system behind the scenes and the buyer only logs in to online banking and confirms. Furthermore, a number of payment processors appeared who offload dealing with all the different consumer banks from the merchant. There is no buyer protection or refunds, but these can be provided by auction sites.So that's how it works on our local eBay clone and on AliExpress. It's fast, takes little clicking on the buyer's side and is inherently safe because at no point is any external party able to drain my account. If eBay manages to integrate it into their system, I may start using them. But with PP and CC, no way.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 04:13:15 pm
content: Quote from: magic on April 06, 2019, 03:33:34 pmHere people get cashback and points from their credit card purchases. Even though bank transfers are better, people won't give up credit cards easily.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 04:17:08 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on April 06, 2019, 08:15:21 amWhat a non-sense. There are lots of independent payment processors already. They're all different and they all compete with each other keeping the fees low. Just select the one you like.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 04:34:59 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on April 06, 2019, 04:17:08 pmMy impression, maybe somewhat misinformed, is that in North America and in China there are a few (non-credit card) payment processors and it works well because they are few and most people and establishments use them so they are all compatible. I know in China almost everybody has and takes Wechat and Aliexpress and many upscale places take Applepay. They are extremely easy to set up and use. Your mobile phone is your wallet where you can keep money and make payments. If I want to pay you 5 yuan I just scan your phone with mine, put in the amount and click send.But my impression of Europe is that the market is very fragmented by countries, by banks, etc. so it is not really so useful. In Spain there are several outfits but none is really universal and forget it if you want to send money to another country.IMHO Europe is way behind America and China in two things which are very important for trade and development: payments and shipping. In America and in China you can buy online and pay easily with little cost and ship things easily and with little cost. Europe is way behind the ball here. It is easier and cheaper for me to buy stuff in China than to buy it from the EU and that makes no sense.I also often buy things from America and while paying is easy the shipping to Spain is too expensive so I have purchases shipped to my agent in the USA and she brings them to Spain when she comes. China have set up that shipping system where they can ship to America and Europe very cheaply.The EU really need to get payments and shipping made cheap and easy among different countries.And all this "prevention of money laundering" BS has gotten out of hand. If I go into a bank to deposit 5 EUR to a bank account I need to show ID and they will make a photocopy and keep it in their files. The stupidity of the bureaucrats needs a log scale to be measured.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 04:42:06 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 05, 2019, 02:29:49 pmEh, no? Nobody (or, well, very few people) will bother to lodge a complaint for a low value item. In addition, I assume the risk of your stuff getting damaged during transport is close to non-existing. If you sell stuff like scopes, rf gens and whatnot like I do, the occasional refunds or partial refunds *do* happen.And yes, this policy change pisses me of. It's not like they're not making any money of me already...

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 05:06:29 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on April 06, 2019, 04:34:59 pmDon't you have free SEPA bank transfers across EU? Where you can just scan QR code with your phone, press a button and money got sent instantly? Pretty much the same as AliPay?Here, in Canada, there's a system of money transfers through e-mail, which works instantly and costs only $1 to send (free to receive).With credit cards too. In the 90-s you had to pay $400 to set up a merchant account plus $400 for software, also $35 monthly fees. Now you can start accepting credit cards without any setup fees.So, things are moving, perhaps not as fast as we would want to.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 05:21:50 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 05, 2019, 02:29:49 pmCount yourself lucky because no matter how well you do things there are many idiots in the world who feel entitled to very unreasonable things. There are many entitled idiots in the world and they are everywhere. They are in the streets driving, they are passengers in airlines, they are everywhere. And some of them are buyers or sellers online.I have never sold on eBay precisely because I do not want to run the risk of running into such people. My purchases on eBay in general have been good experiences. A couple of times I did not receive the thing and I got a prompt refund. When I have had a question or complaint I have always contacted the seller nicely explaining the situation and proposing what I would consider an acceptable resolution. All Chinese sellers have been very nice and I have never had a problem. Some months ago I bought a bicycle foot pump and when it arrived the pump worked but the pressure gauge did not. I messaged the seller proposing several solutions and he chose to refund me half the price I had paid.I only recall one time, long time ago, I had a problem with some American woman who turned out to be rude and crazy. I forget the details but it was like it was a birthday present for somebody (time sensitive) and she shipped the wrong item and then the right item arrived way past due date. She would send me messages like:Code:So I did not ship for over a week!Hello?I already told you my mother is in the hospital. What do you want me to do? Leave her so you can have your item?Hello?

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 06:46:32 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on April 06, 2019, 05:06:29 pmNot that I am aware of. SEPA transfers are neither free nor simple. Maybe others can chime in on this.In China I useWechatPay. Wechat is the equivalent of Whatsapp and is what I use for chatting, sending photos, etc. and also for paying in China. Everybody has it. And I mean *everybody*.Let me describe how it is in China. After lunch my wife decides we should go to a department store and get me a coat. We go out and rent two bikes by scanning the QR code on them. The (tiny) payment is automatically processed by Wechat without any cost to us or further need to do anything. At the department store/mall we release (lock) the bikes and go inside. Once we decide the purchase we go to the register where there are visible logos of payment forms they accept and we are asked how we would like to pay. We say Wechat and the register prints out a ticket with a QR code which I scan and pay. The register instantly receives confirmation of the payment. No cost or commission for the payment. I suppose the merchants pay it.We cross the street to a big park where a food vendor with a cart has a QR code visible. We ask for some cold soy beverage, we scan the QR code, input the (small) amount manually and click "send". The vendor could, of course, check her own account to confirm but just looks at our phone to confirm and is satisfied.A barber is working on the sidewalk and I decide to get a haircut. For some reason he thinks I am Russian. I guess in years past pretty much all foreigners there were Russians. Same thing: scan QR code, input amount, hit send and show the barber.Uh, oh, we are having dinner with the wife's family at a restaurant and time is short. We call aDDcar (like Uber) and also pay using Wechat.At the (more upscale) restaurant we get a printed bill which we scan and pay, like at the department store. In lower-end places you just scan their Wechat ID and input the amount manually.My wife's family insist on sharing the bill and transfer (something) to her Wechat account which they don't need to scan because they already have it.So the system is extremely simple and convenient, costs nothing and is good for all payments, big or small.Nothing in Spain comes even close to this. Bank transfers are a pain and cost money. Credit cards are a pain in several ways. And there is no convenient way to just pay small amounts to a friend or a small vendor.I guess a regular credit card offers things that Paypal or Wechat don't like credit, security of transactions (you cannot charge back on Wechat that I know of) but the convenience is unequalled.This is just one aspect where IMHO China is way ahead of us. I think many people never got used to banking. They went directly from using only cash to using smartphones. I would think most people in China have never used a check in their lives.Quote

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 07:04:58 pm
content: That's how it should be really. Honestly I think the modern parts of China are way ahead as a society. Unfortunately how they got there wasn't necessarily good but that's another topic.This is similar to using contactless cards / Apple Pay etc in London. I did the whole day out just with apple pay. All public transport in London and 99% of shops accept it. Just jump on, zap it and at the end of the day you get a charge for where you went capped by a max daily amount.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2019, 07:43:14 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on April 06, 2019, 04:17:08 pmI am on "N26" now. It's experimental, but it looks niceIt accepts money to cash and to/from Paypal with interesting low fees.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2019, 08:08:17 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on April 05, 2019, 09:21:44 pmthey are not crooks, the policy is public, you can agree with them, and use their service, or not.the truth is: they are expensive, their policy is ... not friendly if you are the seller.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2019, 08:10:31 pm
content: Also they are a lot more friendly than the average payment merchant.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2019, 08:12:54 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on April 06, 2019, 06:46:32 pmHere in the north of Italy, what you have described above is the equivalent for "N26", which also pays for the Tube.But, hear me: here it's extremely experimental, and only works in Milan

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 07:30:22 pm
content: Quote from: legacy on April 07, 2019, 08:08:17 pmRead what they did to me. Then took my money and then changed their requirements and blocked my account. Sorry. They are crooks.I opened an account with whatever conditions they had at the time. They never asked me for additional requirements. Then they took money out of my bank account and immediately blocked my money and caused me many problems. Crooks is what they are.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 10:35:34 am
content: Quote from: Jwalling on April 04, 2019, 05:34:07 pmSo far, I've had to take two returns for buyer idiocy, and I lost the fees paid to Paypal.1. A pair of 10:1 passive probes which the buyer bought for his DSO80000B series scope which has 50Ohm inputs only.$10. ($20 including return shipping.)2. A scope which sold for about $950. The reason the buyer gave:QuoteAnother $30 bucks or so. And I get to pay for return shipping 2 day priority mail 35LBS 2500 miles...Nice!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 03:54:15 pm
content: Wow that sucks. I've been very close to just stopping selling on eBay altogether, this is enough to push me over that edge. Between the exorbitant fees including fees on shipping that I buy through eBay (so they know exactly how much I paid) and the extreme bias in favor of buyers it's just not worth it anymore.

author: Daixiwen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 07:55:42 am
content: QuoteDid he meant he only wants broken equipment in his lab?

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 08:03:29 am
content: Why would you pay return shipping, let alone refund, for what amounts to a change of mind?I'm reasonably accommodating but even for me that's a bit on the nose.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 08:34:15 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on August 09, 2019, 08:03:29 amWell, it depends on what the seller offers. The seller can specify no returns accepted but if the seller says the buyer can return the item for any reason or no reason then the seller can return the item for any reason or no reason. Shoppers at brick and mortar stores have come to expect this even though it costs the stores a lot because most returned items cannot be sold and have to be returned to the manufacturer or distributor. This costs the stores a lot but they take the loss because they believe it gains them customers in the big picture.A seller on eBay can do it for the same reason but then they are stuck if they have to many returns by capricious customers. That's part of the risk. You don't have to offer it though. You can state that all sales are final. Many eBay sellers do that.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 01:04:03 pm
content: Quote from: sleemanj on August 09, 2019, 08:03:29 amYou can offer lots of incentives - free returns, free shipping, discounts ... You have to pay for the incentives, but if it brings you more sales (or more popularity among buyers, or whatever), it may be beneficial for you in the end.

author: vtwin@cox.net
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 11:11:51 am
content: If a buyer files a return request, and it gets escalated to eBay (because you refuse to accept the return), then the probability is close to 100% they will generate a return shipping label for the buyer and have him/her return it to you, and bill your eBay account for the shipping and the refund.There is no such thing as “returns not accepted” on eBay.I recently got burned for about $10 in shipping and fees on two $25 items which clearly in the description said they were “new” but included the item only and nothing else (e.g. they were new and had been removed from the box and the box/material discarded). The buyer initiated a return because they were not in a retail box.I’ve come to the conclusion buyers read the title and look at the picture and price and never read the item description. It doesn’t help that ebay’s mobile presentation makes the description almost impossible to find as eBay has this annoying “feature” of displaying a lot of pre-established vendor info about the item you’re selling, general reviews about the product, etc. It takes extra clicks on your phone to actually find the item’s detailed description narrative.My eBay selling days are just about over. I have about a dozen items currently listed, and once they’re gone I doubt I’ll be listing much of anything else (I do not sell as a business). Too much aggravation for too little reward.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 11:14:17 am
content: Yeah there is. Spares/repair is not returnable. Someone tried to scam me for a scope corpse I sold saying it didn’t work and eBay+PayPal sided with me because it clearly said so in the auction.If it works and you know it will remain working for at least 6 months and you accept returns = used.Anything else = spares/repair.I never list anything as new even if sealed. Open it and take it out of the packaging, record the serial numbers and sell it used.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 12:50:01 pm
content: Quote from: vtwin@cox.net on August 10, 2019, 11:11:51 amYou are mistaken as a brief search will prove. You are free to list items as "non returnable, sale is final".Of course, the item must match the description. You cannot ship something that does not meet the description and then say "ha, ha, gotcha!".It just like in the real world. No business is obligated to accept returns just because the buyer changed their mind but they cannot sell you a faulty item represented as in working condition. In other words, you cannot misrepresent your offer because that would be fraud but you can definitely make sales final and not accept returns.

author: vtwin@cox.net
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 06:42:56 pm
content: Sorry, we will have to agree to disagree, because my experience says just the opposite.I will admit I do not sell items listed as “not working” or “for repair/parts” etc so eBay may have a different viewpoint on those items, but every item I list on eBay I do so with “returns not accepted” and I have still been forced to accept a return (and pay for the return shipping) — case in point, this recent incident with the item I sold which was new but not in a retail box (and stated such in the description) which eBay forced me to accept a return on.Perhaps they have a different attitude if you are a power seller and are paying thousands in fees each month.I imagine it may also have something to do with the category you are selling in as well, as some items may not be inherently returnable (such as, say, a piece of software which includes a license code).

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 06:50:27 pm
content: There is often confusion between a return for not being as described and one for some other reason.eBay Buyer Protection enables the buyer to return an item if it isn't as described, regardless what the seller's return policy is. The seller then has to refund the total cost to the buyer when they return the item, including shipping, and the seller has to pay for the return shipping cost, too.What happens with other return reasons depends on the seller's return policy. If they say no returns, then the buyer has to keep it.For example, I sold a hard drive that worked just fine and was listed as used with "seller does not accept returns", but the buyer changed their mind and opened a return request saying that their kid had bought the drive and they wanted to return it. I immediately phoned eBay to shut down that nonsense and the agent closed the case on the spot.Be very careful with setting condition as "New." Lacking the retail box doesn't qualify as new. "New (other)" may work, but may still be risky.Quote from: eBay

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 10:36:52 am
content: Quote from: vtwin@cox.net on August 10, 2019, 06:42:56 pmI am the first to say eBay/Paypal can be unfair and difficult to deal with but from what you describe it sounds to me like it was your mistake and you did not bother to learn from it. Did you bother to ask exactly why you were forced to take it back? Other people seem to navigate selling on eBay without accepting returns.You have to be thorough and meticulous. You can't just do a shoddy listing and then complain about it not working out like you wanted.

author: vtwin@cox.net
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 11:41:27 am
content: Quote from: soldar on August 11, 2019, 10:36:52 amI am quite meticulous in my listings, not only in my item description where I disclose every imperfection but I take numerous photos of the items I sell, and fully document an item's condition. I've been selling on eBay since the late 90's (I've been selling since the days you could leave feedback for another eBayer without actually having a transaction with them.) I am a casual seller, I do not sell to make a living and it isn't a business for me. In the 20+ years I've been on eBay my feedback rating is still in 3 digits.I specifically stated in my listing the item was new, had been removed from its box and the box and accompanying material thrown away, but then had never been installed. So it was "new, without box", which would be akin to "new without tags" in the clothing area.The reason for the return was it did not include the retail box. I refused the return, and eBay sided with the buyer.Fortunately in this case, it was a small item and the shipping charges were negligible, but on a $25 item where I had to pay $7 r/t shipping, I "lost" over 25% of the item's value just in the shipping charges alone, and now tack on the paypal fees I do not get reimbursed. I immediately re-listed the item and it re-sold within a few days to someone who actually read the item description and has since left positive feedback he's happy with the item. It is pretty clear, IMO, either 1) the buyer simply changed his mind, or 2) he didn't read the item description itself, but relied on the pre-filled in data eBay shows when you look for an item specifically by vendor name and product code.About a year ago I sold a used laptop for $150 which a buyer had for two months, after which they opened a claim the item was "not as described" and likewise eBay forced the return. In that case I was out over $30 in shipping (bi-directional) and when I received the returned item it was functioning 100%, so it was apparent either the buyer changed his mind or found a "better deal" somewhere else.It's pretty common knowledge these days if you want to return an item, for whatever reason, you simply file an 'item not as described' complaint and claim the item doesn't work, and the return will be granted.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 12:04:25 pm
content: Quote from: vtwin@cox.net on August 11, 2019, 11:41:27 amWhile I can understand your frustration it seems you put it in the wrong category if "new" has to include the box. You cannot put an item in a category which requires X and then disclaim X in the description. Now you know for next time.I have seen items offered which disclaimed in the text things claimed in the title. I do not even attribute it to bad faith but you just can't do that. Would you be happy if you bought a car only to find out later the small print says tires, steering wheel and doors are extra?If eBay says "New" means it includes the box then a buyer is not obligated to find you disclaim that somewhere in the description. You should have listed it as used or whatever fits best. You gave the buyer the loophole.Again, I can understand your frustration and I sympathize but if you learn from this you will not have the same problem again. If you had listed it correctly you would not have been obligated to take it back.

author: vtwin@cox.net
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 03:20:36 pm
content: Again, you and I will simply have to agree to disagree.When listing an item, eBay gives 5 choices: New, Open Box, Manufacturer Refurbished, Seller Refurbished, Used, or "For Parts/Not Working" Of the 5 choices, "New" seemed the best selection, since the item itself was new. Used, not working, and refurbished certainly were not applicable. I suppose "open box" may have been an option, except, as I indicated, I was selling the item itself and nothing else that normally comes in the box, because it had all been discarded. If you want to get "technical" by the description eBay provides when listing an item, none of their "Condition" selections are applicable to my listing.Undoubtedly had I selected "Open Box" the buyer would have likewise complained because the definition of "open box" says "the item includes original accessories".Had the buyer read the item description, he wouldn't have purchased the item in the first place, if he was indeed looking for an item in a retail box. Instead, it was clear he didn't read the description of the item, instead, relied on the eBay list and pre-filled-in-data and thought he was getting a $100-retail item for $24.95 brand new a the box.However, this is getting off topic, which is, Paypal's policy, not eBay's.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 03:54:43 pm
content: Quote from: vtwin@cox.net on August 11, 2019, 03:20:36 pmIf someone bought a TV, then took an HDMI cable from the box and sold it, it would be "used", without any doubts.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2019, 04:45:45 am
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on August 11, 2019, 03:54:43 pmThat doesn't make any sense at all, the TV hasn't been used, it's just missing an accessory you can get anywhere for almost nothing. "New - other" would be appropriate for this case, or "open box". I don't think it's unreasonable either to list it as "New" and then clearly list the circumstances in the description. That's what the description is for, they can't possibly account for every possible situation in the status. If the TV has never been handled and hooked up then it isn't used.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2019, 05:16:25 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on April 06, 2019, 08:15:21 amThats a fantastic idea, minus the billionaire.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2020, 02:31:31 am
content: If I remember correctly PayPal backed off this change last year, but just got this announcement for my NZ account...https://www.paypal.com/nz/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-full> If you refund (partially or fully) a transaction to a buyer or a donation to a donor, there are no fees to make the refund, but the fees you originally paid will not be returned to you. (This will not apply to residents of Mainland China who open a PayPal account and use the PayPal services.)Edit: Googling tells me that PayPal re-rolled this change out in October last year I guess for US, and Asia Pacific is catching up (unless you live in China it seems).

author: unknownparticle
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2020, 06:22:50 pm
content: Once any any internet company becomes dominant in their market the greed motive kicks in, because they have no competition. Paypal is nothing but an online bank, and we all know the track record banks have for exploiting their customers. Paypal was started by Elon Musk by the way, for those that didn't know, and we all know what a sham artist he is! Tesla won't last long though, when Chinese EV manufacturers really start producing!!

author: ECarr1985
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 31, 2020, 03:21:26 pm
content: It would be normal to have the "Other" choice where you could describe why your product is not in a specific category. But the customers should always read the description because it's not in vain there. I have never had issues with PayPal though, but I also have a Skrill account fromhttps://baxity.com/skrill-vs-paypalbecause it's much more convenient for some transactions. This is a weird policy I think, because if a detail or a piece it's missing, it doesn't mean the object is used, and I think many customers are misled by this.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2020, 05:22:40 pm
content: Quote from: unknownparticle on January 07, 2020, 06:22:50 pmActually, Musk wasnota PayPal founder. He took the proceeds from the sale of his previous software com-any (Compaq was the buyer) and started an online payments company. That company was bought by PayPal.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2020, 10:46:52 am
content: I really don't like eBay... not only are they are dickish company and treat their sellers like crap, the whole experience is terrible.Amazon offers next day or same day delivery.I can trust the quality of ~most of the items on Amazon.I can trust the quality of ~most of the reviews on Amazon.eBay:Is full of dropshippers who lie about location.With shipping charges is generally more expensive.Is rarely next day.Is full of items that lie about price (99p - £9.99 and the 99p item is completely different to the other items in the list, making sorting impractical.)Got a problem and it takes a week to resolve whereas Amazon will refund or returns accepted immediately.I very rarely buy from eBay now. Only use it for auctions from private sellers or very infrequently when Amazon does not have the item needed.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2020, 03:12:01 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 02, 2020, 10:46:52 amI liked Amazon when they were selling books.I don't like them now. Descriptions are often misleading, if not totally wrong. Reviews are lumped together. Say, you want to buy a 4K monitor, but you get lots of reviews, many of them may be for similar 1080p monitors. For many things, they work just a portal for the seller, and the item gets shipped from China - same drop-shipping as everywhere else. So, you can really buy a small subset of what you see. And even from this subset, something is no longer available, others don't ship to my address etc. Prices constantly change. A while back I wanted to buy a WiFi router, add one for $100 to my shopping cart, then had to go to lunch before checkout. Guess what. I come back and the router is $120 already. Do they really expect me to buy it in such situation?It is a long way for Amazon to go to match the level of electronic suppliers, such as DigiKey. But guess what, Amazon doesn't get any better, but DigiKey is devolving towards Amozon - they now have products listed which are not shipped by DigiKey ... just as Amazon.AliExpress is getting better. They descriptions, and feedback/rating systems are much better now than they were 5-10 years ago. Shipping options are much better. The quality of merchants improved. If they add parametric search, they will be very hard to beat. They don't accept PayPal though.eBay, on the other hand, hasn't improved over last 20 years ago. I rarely use them now, if at all.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2020, 04:01:11 pm
content: Amazon's search function has to be the worst ever designed - no matter what you type into the search box, you get pretty much the entire Amazon catalog as the result set. I've given up using Amazon search, now I search with Google and point it to Amazon. (Not that Google search isn't broken, but you can get it to work half decently when you set it to "Verbatim" mode, which makes it work like anyone would expect it to work...) - still I do shop on Amazon and live with the "dumbing down" as the world marches towards perfect idiocracy.eBay used to have a very good search function which allowed wildcards, and so on. They dumbed down their search function to follow idiocracy rules and it is much more tedious to search on eBay nowadays. I still like eBay, though, and use it frequently.The good news about eBay is that at their last earnings call (in the last week) they seem to be finally realizing that they are not going to become Amazon, and that they shouldn't try to do that, and that they need to get "back to basics". Time will tell if the new found cluefulness will manifest in actual product, but we can at least hope...

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2020, 04:34:15 pm
content: It depends on what you want to buy. You cant buy Old Good stuff from Amazon and the like, you can only find it on eBay and similar auction sites or in local lists.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2020, 04:50:54 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on August 02, 2020, 03:12:01 pmAmazon, annoyingly here has a parallel universe of available products thanks to our GST system. 9 times out of 10 any support links on youtube channels point to items that are not available here.Hey Bezos: FIX YO SHIT.