Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: axemaster
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 02:33:40 pm
content: Hi guys, I am an American student at a university in the USA. I have been using PCBway and other Chinese fabs such as JLC for several years with no issues.On Friday I was scheduled to receive a 8-layer PCB from PCBway. However, the Export Control Officer for my university seized the package from the loading dock and is refusing to deliver it to me. He claims that it is illegal for us to use Chinese fabricators, and if the package was delivered to me, it would be "a violation that would have to be reported to the federal government".According to him, by sending my gerber files to the Chinese fab, I exported the files illegally.I asked him if it illegal for private citizens to order PCBs from Chinese fabs, and he said yes.Please note, I do not work with weapons or secret technology of any kind. To my knowledge, I have never signed any document compelling secrecy or anything like that.Basically everyone I know uses Chinese fabs - I asked around the university over the past 2 days and nobody has heard of the restrictions this guy was talking about. Is there any merit to what he is saying? This incident has been stunning and alarming to me.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 03:01:34 pm
content: Without much more information and probably statement from the person making those claims explaining the basis for them, I wouldn't comment. He may be a knucklehead or perhaps what you are working on is subject to export control restrictions for some reason. What may have happened is that your university is taking an overly broad view of export control regulations in order to 'be safe'. However, I would struggle to understand how any purported violation would be deemed to have occurred only upon the delivery of the PCB to you. If uploading your files violated some export control restriction, I would think the violation has already occurred and is reportable now.In any case, this is all well above your pay grade so to speak. Your education will now move into the area of bureaucracy, institutional interpersonal relations and regulatory interpretation. What may have happened is that your university is taking an overly broad view of export control regulations in order to 'be safe'.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 03:08:21 pm
content: Unless your design falls under ITAR, I see no reason why it would be illegal. I guess you could report him to police for illegally posessing your property. Even if he was right, I don't see how ITAR violation by exporting your files to China would result in seizingimportedPCBs.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 03:09:47 pm
content: If sending Gerber files for a PCB to a Chinese fab were illegal, most of the US electronics industry would shut down until alternative suppliers develop. US export regulations have very specific rules about what technology can be exported (exporting design information, rather than stuff, would be considered a technology export). Gerbers would have to be implementing something very original to fall foul of those rules.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 03:16:09 pm
content: I'd suggest complaining upward. If you're right, it isn't your job to tell them to pull their head out of their ass. In the highly unlikely event you're wrong it's already documented with your name on it, no harm making a good faith effort to rectify the situation.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 04:03:13 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 24, 2022, 03:08:21 pmThe specific design doesn't necessarily need to be export restricted, it could simply fall under overly broad institutional or corporate rules intended to prioritize ease of proving compliance over getting things done. Without knowing a lot more about the design, the program and the institution it might be hard to figure out where it comes from and whose rule it is. Decades ago when I was in school and working in a materials science lab, they had a large grant from the US Navy. So lots of things got "charged to the Navy". I'm sure that Navy grant came with all sorts of strings attached and perhaps it would have been a violation of those rules to export any part of anything funded by the program. If there is an audit or (shudder) an 'investigation', someone may ask for a list of any information or designs provided to overseas parties. The export control officer may have the goal of being able to answer that question by saying 'there aren't any'. A blanket policy is easier to implement and defend.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 04:28:56 pm
content: Think you may have an over Zealous Security Officer. We had such awhile back that refused to allow some university colleagues into meeting because they were not US citizens, and nothing we were discussing was classified nor even proprietary, she used ITAR as the reason. I really ticked her off during another meeting when a bunch of us cleared folks were having a classified discussion and I said we had an ITAR violation because some were using pens from China including her!! She soon left our group, thank goodness!!Another fun (well no so fun for the student) story was a grad student that had developed a tiny new control moment gyro for use on a Cube Sat (very small satellite). Since he used the word "Satellite" during his presentation, his gyro came under ITAR control, and since he wasn't a US citizen all his files and such were confiscated and he wasn't allowed to access his own files, hardware and designWe were warned about using Satellite in any presentations for our stuff going into space, so this became a "Small Test Platform", or STP!!Best,

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 05:52:13 pm
content: We call this Janitor or Doorman syndrome. You take a person who has a completely empty and useless life, and you give them a little bit of responsibility of a process -which can be as insignificant as screening for criminals entering a building- and you end up with these sort of people. These are the people who don't contribute anything to the human condition, other than suffering, unnecessary paperwork, and annoyance.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 06:46:46 pm
content: Try to get a written (e-mail) explanation of what university/federal regulations were violated if you really want to protest it over his head. Trying to make a big deal about it with just some nebulous he said she said bullshit is going to backfire, exhaust your options with him fully first and get your ducks in a row.That said, there is an obvious alternative. Write it off as a loss and next time order via a private address. Assuming it's really a private project, if not just go to your professor and tell him you need more money and why.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 06:52:56 pm
content: have the professor place the order for the boards. he's paid by the university. his problem. not the students problem.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 07:54:19 pm
content: Quote from: axemaster on April 24, 2022, 02:33:40 pmOh really.While some university may have a specific policy regarding this, I can't see how it could generally apply to private citizens.But I may not be aware of the latest sanctions the US imposed on China.Though if that were the case, no body in the US could ever get anything fabricated in China anymore, and I think we would have noticed.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 07:59:03 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 24, 2022, 07:54:19 pmLots of US businesses would go out of business without various inexpensive Chinese products and services..

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 08:05:25 pm
content: A chip fab makes semiconductors.. A PCB house is different.. they just put semiconductors on PCBs.. You provide the parts..What university is involved, just curious? Many universities probably have various electronics projects made for them. Some universities probably have lots of boards made for them.Some universities are probably particularly well informed. others not.If what he said was/is true, the situation may be changing raapidly with regard to Russia,l especially.He would know where these rules were.. andwhythat was the case. (Up to the minute rulemaking)Or it may be bullshit.If you really wanted to know, wouldnt there be some rule he could cite? Ask him. The default should be to provide the exact data.. to you of whats going on.Maybe Chinese businesses have been sanctioned more and there are new rules. I wouldn't dismiss this out of hand, just ask for the specific rules being violated/ Could you please post that info here, too.Also, any other info you can dredge up..Quote from: bdunham7 on April 24, 2022, 03:01:34 pm

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 08:16:03 pm
content: Your department head might know more?Quote from: BrokenYugo on April 24, 2022, 03:16:09 pm

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 08:25:07 pm
content: The fact is, lots of people who work for the government are flabbergasted by the situationwith Russiaand dont know what to do and its all changing fast..Not China, Russia. As far as I know. And, it really sucks for them because they have been working with Russian partners on the space program for a long time.. This guy may be right? Better safe than sorry!Quote from: Marco on April 24, 2022, 06:46:46 pm

author: axemaster
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 08:40:14 pm
content: Thanks for the replies!I will continue to gather more info over the next 1-2 days. Sorry but I'm not going to reveal what university it is, I don't want to get myself in unnecessary trouble...I have taken a look at the EAR "Commerce Control List" Category 3 (electronics). It looks like PCBs are restricted only when used in:- missiles- "Printed circuit boards and populated circuit cards with a layout that is “specially designed” for defense articles"- PCBs designed for military electronics/vehicles/aircraft

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 09:01:24 pm
content: I was just going to suggest that it's a use restriction, that Chinese parts or subassemblies can't be used in certain sensitive or classified projects. Once a department is involved in a sensitive project barriers are erected.I doubt PCBWay or JLCPCB are affected by sanctions. If they were, to begin with it, would be difficult to pay them. Sanctions against Chinese nationals tend to be associated with involvement in the concentration camps and the Uighur genocide. And there are still sanctions in effect against those responsible for the Tiananmen Square massacre.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 09:35:11 pm
content: Bonjour, most interesting from a legal and customs standpoint !Suggest that you1/ ask university official for the US code that is cited.2/ notice that most electronics can be considered "dual use" and potentially military.3/ anything sent to a Chinese firm, even PCB, gerbers, for fab can be examined and appropriated by the Chinese government, according to Chinese law.4/ freight incoming to USA is cleared at POE by US CBP, USPS, etcGenerally if it was delivered, it has already cleared customs.5/ in theory, your university has illegally intercepted your package, recieved vai US post or international freight. It has committed an offense.6 / get a PO BOX or personal adresse and don't use your University adresse.bon courage ,Jon

author: vav
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 10:15:00 pm
content: If you have someone in a country that is not subject to sanctions, order Chinese goods through them.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 10:21:18 pm
content: Quote from: axemaster on April 24, 2022, 08:40:14 pmYep. Keep us posted too if you can, that's interesting.Quote from: axemaster on April 24, 2022, 08:40:14 pmThat's what I knew as well. So, unless there are some new measures that we are not aware of yet...But possibly any work done at your university is by default considered in the "defense" category. That's something you'll have to figure out.Or again, maybe this is just some internal uni policy that they wanna enforce, and they'll make you think that it's a legal requirement.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 10:27:43 pm
content: In order to get to the twit this package was first cleared by U.S. Customs & Border Protection. I think they know the laws better than some university droid. You could give them a call and see what they say. If you have a tracking number, they might be able to look that up and tell you what they decided on that package.Ultimately, you have two choices. Shrug and walk away or phone the police and charge him with theft.

author: pigrew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 10:36:26 pm
content: I've not experienced any issues when ordering PCBs lately (other than the purchasing department grumbling about overseas payments), and I have not heard anything about new policy changes.I can imagine if the PCB had mm-wave circuits or was designed for aerospace, that the layout itself could be ITAR restricted.I've also heard of universities black-listing some of the inexpensive Chinese PCB fabs, due to poor quality control.It sounds like in this case, it's "PCBs are bad" with little nuance.I would suggest having an faculty/staff member investigate. A lot of the time, business & receiving staff won't give (much) help to students.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 10:47:45 pm
content: I don't understand how someone who works in a loading dock has any rights to your personal mail. It sounds bizarre to me.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 10:56:49 pm
content: Quote from: axemaster on April 24, 2022, 02:33:40 pmYou might want to start by pointing out to him (and his boss) that it is an import, not an export, and that with his job title he ought to know the difference.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 11:59:45 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 24, 2022, 10:56:49 pmThat is quite a bizarre situation. Sorry you got entangled.As above (as well as mentioned by edpalmer42 and jonpaul), the package was already cleared to enter the US border by the CBP and the export of files is a separate matter. The seizure of the package in the university premises exposes them to theft investigation - if it is via USPS, that would have one more layer as it has federal scope.Oh well... Let's hope that your advisor or someone else with actual brains solves this issue without hassle.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2022, 12:53:00 am
content: If the package arrived via US Postal Service and depending on how it was addressed, you may be able to remind the brain dead enforcer of self made rules that it is a federal offense to tamper with the mail.It is an endemic problem with security 'professionals' that they are often incapable or too lazy to hold a real job. And nobody is watching the watchers.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2022, 01:21:29 am
content: Quote from: Gregg on April 25, 2022, 12:53:00 amYou guys making this claim are just entirely wrong about the law regarding mail. The only exception would be if it were addressed to the individual and sent byrestricted certified mail, in which case the postman would be at fault for tendering the package to anyone but the named individual. I'm sure that didn't happen here, so once the package is delivered to the address or institution, it isn't US Mail anymore and the university policies, local laws and such would be the only regulations that would apply.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2022, 06:55:40 pm
content: I work at a research university. Unless the money was Government Funded Research with restrictions, or you sent an ITAR restricted file to China, then what did you do wrong?. If your research was sensitive or higher you would have been briefed by your Prof or a Designated Information Security Officer. You'd also know you made a mistake, as the training would have been thorough.If another Prof in the department was doing ITAR or Secure research and the compliance officer nailed you for it, that should have been briefed to your PI, but not you.Take this problem to your PI, and let him/her/it take it to the department head or similar position. Odds are your Research Dean or VP of Research needs to know about this as well.Did you have them stuff the parts, program the chips, or send any supporting documentation on the project? (Yes/No)Well above your paygrade. That and someone is an Idiot, Improperly Briefed, Control Freak or Newbie.If you did not send restricted data, then how are your boards fruit of a poisonous tree?Leave US Customs out of the discussion. They do not check EVERYTHING that comes in for compliance. They have target lists, and I'm pretty sure "custom pcb" is not one of them. There is a concept in justice called Mens Rea, versus Actus Reus. It is difficult but not impossible to violate the law if you had no intent of doing so.If this personseized or opened your package without your PI present and is a non-scientist, for a variety of reasons that needs to be addressed too. Especially if photosensitive, ESD sensitive, a chemical, flammable, oxidizer or acid, biohazard, fragile, frail, temperature sensitive, or hazmat. Make sure your PI understands that. My university has lost some expensive samples to that problem. We also have the periodic problem of "You can't do that, leading to expensive alternatives" A good research leadership team will take a few days and nip that in the bud.I'd love to know if the rules have changed in the past year.... For the record I'm not a lawyer.Steve

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2022, 09:05:52 am
content: Universities with security officers intercepting your mail? The US sounds more dystopian with every new fact you learn...

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2022, 12:04:47 pm
content: Is it illegal to order PCBs from cheap Chinese PCB houses now? Or not?

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2022, 02:38:50 pm
content: Post 9-11 and Post Anthrax Incident lots of universities, corporations, and government agencies went prudent on incoming mail until larger shippers got their act together on inspection..I'm aware of a situation where five gallon pails of a drug precursor were ordered on a campus for five years. A secretary was ordering it for her boyfriend and having it delivered to various graduate students without their knowledge. One day a graduate student received a pail before she could intercept it. Grad student knew what it was, was propely enraged over the order of a fairly dangerous"scheduled" chemical in his/her name, and reported it. Big embarrassment for one of the most recognized colleges in the field of study. How she got around the hazmat reporting requirements, I do not know.So in our case the check is matching the package to the purchase order. If something is suspicious Health and Safety gets called or the PI goes to receiving. Otherwise nothing is said.What often happens is a sales person clicks on the wrong on-campus address and ships a package. We often receive chemicals or parts addressed to our department that we did not order, or do not know which group the package was intended for. One of my duties as a technician is to open or identify poorly shipped containers and get them to the proper recipient. Often even the purchase order will not have a name on it. So I end up contacting the vendor for purchase data.If your an undergraduate on our campus you can order "edible undies" delivered to your dorm and nothing will be said. But if your paid staff and it is a business matter, your package may legally checked without consent. That is true in most of the world.It may sound dystopian, but in reality shipments rarely are opened. Truck after truck delivers daily to our loading dock. There simply is not time to open and check every box.Steve

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2022, 06:05:45 pm
content: Not sure I got whether it was a purely personal order here from the OP, or whether it was an order placed for some university project. Two different things already.If the former, then I'd suggest never having any personal mail sent to the organization you work at, whether it be a private company or a public institution. They all have policies for this. The previous company I worked at had a policy of OPENING any letter you received as an employee, which were all recorded in a file. But packages were not opened. That was in the company's internal regulations, so you were supposed to know it once you got employed.So, we commonly had personal packages delivered at the workplace out of convenience, and the company tolerated it (although they were telling us to avoid large packages.)But at some other places, internal regulations may have various policies and you're supposed to follow them.

author: boB
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2022, 08:46:30 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on April 26, 2022, 12:04:47 pmNo. Not in the US or North America.Now, there might be tariffs paid when they entered the country...The security guy has some kind of a complex and is totally full of shit.If he were correct, then you would probably have to confiscate his radio, his cell phone and possibly any electronics he has on his person because they or their PCBs most likely came from China.Geeesh ! What kind of stupidity is this country heading for ?!!?!?boB

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2022, 09:36:00 pm
content: That's what it seemed like it was to me too. Since when is offering low prices illegal?