Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: AlbertL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2023, 06:12:21 am
content: Some of the recently-reported Tesla FSD "fails" have reinforced my opinion that the vehicles need external supporting infrastructure to operate safely - they can't do it by relying solely on their own sensors.Specifically, I mean (1) a database accessible by the vehicle, maintained in real-time, of temporary conditions such as work zones and accident scenes that affect driving through an area, and (2) vehicle-readable optical/radio beacons, passive markers and other devices at critical locations such as intersections, that convey static and dynamic information needed for navigation at that point.We already have external infrastructure, in the form of GPS, which eliminates the need for a vehicle to read directional signs. These ideas would extend the concept to other key aspects of driving.For example, consider the problem of a FSD vehicle failing to react to a person directing traffic. Instead of trying to teach the vehicle to visually recognize those situations, imagine if the construction worker or first responder could just pull out a tablet, call up a map, and draw a box around the area to be protected. The restriction would immediately go into a database and be relayed to the affected vehicles. Those nearby would be ordered to slow down and change lanes, while those further away would be directed to alternate routes.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2023, 06:36:28 am
content: Yes, for sure. But there is zero chance of that happening. US government stopped investing into public infrastructure (partially because they get sued by companies for that) and commercial companies will only have one goal - screw the competition and make as much money as possible. Then abandon it couple years later when they move on to the next fad.Ideally there would also be some sort of a standard for machine-readable road marking and signs, but who is going to come up with this standard when half the states are trying to ban EVs. LOL.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2023, 06:47:35 am
content: This was already known more then 25 years ago.If you want something that is safer then a human driver you need a system that does not solely rely on it's own sensory. With GPS there is indeed extra information given to the system, but it is not reliable enough and does not work in tunnels. The driving system needs more data about the circumstances in it's direct presence. Like for instant the road can tell if it is icy, or that there is an obstruction around the corner.A system I worked on in 1995-1996 for container transportation was designed around using road side beacons. Using IR data was send from one beacon to the next. Blocking a beam would then lead to the beacons next in line there is an obstruction ahead, and the vehicles, also picking up the IR communication, would know it has to stop. Here the intent was to have a private road with railroad tracks just for this system.With better technology for data communication available it should be possible to create something more safe, but it takes a lot of investment.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2023, 07:49:42 pm
content: Quote from: AlbertL on March 05, 2023, 06:12:21 amLet me stop you right there. GPS is not suitable for self driving cars -period-. The accuracy is way too low for that. I've seen GPS (using a really good, industrial receiver + antenna) get the wrong location by +/-150 meters when used in a car. So where is the car is actually driving? It could be several streets away. Take a wrong exit on purpose and look for how long your navigation system thinks you are still on the road you should have been on. It gets worse at big intersections.On top of that GPS is way too fragile for this purpose as well as it can easely be spoofed using a $15 SDR dongle in a laptop. Think about the amount of mayhem a terrorist can do by spoofing GPS.However there are efforts to develop positioning systems that are suitable for self driving cars. For example:https://www.tudelft.nl/citg/over-faculteit/afdelingen/geoscience-remote-sensing/research/projects/supergps

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2023, 07:59:06 pm
content: Quote from: AlbertL on March 05, 2023, 06:12:21 amHave you ever tried using GPS in an urban environment where you are surrounded by tall buildings? It confuses the hell out of it.I think it is obvious that Tesla will never achieve true FSD with the hardware they have. There are just too many edge cases, snow on the road, leaves, flooding, construction, worn markings, dirt/spray accumulation on the cameras, etc. There's just no way it will ever work consistently under less than ideal situations and for it to be practical it MUST work in all these cases. A human driver cannot be expected to take over at a moment's notice, that is not realistic at all.

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 01:04:16 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 05, 2023, 07:59:06 pmIt's probably obvious to Musk as well.But you'll never hear him admit that. FSD is always just around the corner.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 01:21:49 pm
content: Quote from: TomKatt on March 06, 2023, 01:04:16 pmIt was 25 years ago and even though they made some progress it will stay there, unless they change the approach to having a roadside support system like suggested in the original post. And then still things can go wrong.A human is not perfect at driving and also causes accidents, but can be held accountable for actions taken. These systems are also not perfect but the problem is accountability. Whom to blame in case of an accident.And even if they succeed in making a standalone system that performs better then a human driver, without the additional input it still won't be able to detect an obstacle around a corner quickly enough to avoid an accident.

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 01:36:17 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on March 06, 2023, 01:21:49 pmThe legal test case hasn't arrived yet. But it seems inevitable an incident will occur that decides that.I suspect that manufacturers must feel they have some legal protection, otherwise they're putting themselves at risk.Edit - or, possibly the manufacturers feel the profits are worth the risk. I doubt that Ford was the only car company to calculate the profit/loss calculations for human lives lost due to an engineering design flaw...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 02:22:34 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on March 06, 2023, 01:21:49 pmThat has already been sorted and put into laws in various countries. Bottom line: the manufacturer takes the blame.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 04:31:57 pm
content: Why should it strictly be necessary to have external sensors? The eventual goal might be zero fatalities and injuries, but at this point, anything better than humans should be good enough.Waymo manage to drive taxis around Phoenix, AZ and SF bay area with no external sensors, and have had zero fatal or SDC-caused accidents in their history (the only accidents reported so far were due to other drivers colliding with Waymo vehicles.)(Source)Humans manage to drive with eyes on what could more or less be termed a limited-rotation gimbal and with relatively advanced (for the animal kingdom) image processing and whatever neural network you could classify the brain as. And in the US, these drivers kill about 40,000 per year, and between 10-20x that many serious injuries (depending on definition). So any system that could achieve at least that level of safety would be better. Why couldn't cameras or LIDAR with appropriate software reach at least that level of safety? It could likely be better, because it would never get distracted or drunk.There isn't yet enough data to definitively conclude that Waymo or other SDCs are safer in terms of fatalities (they would need to drive well over 100 million miles to start to get to statistically significant data) but the early evidence suggests they do have far fewer crashes per mile, which would imply they are already at least as safe as human drivers, if not safer.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 04:45:24 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 06, 2023, 04:31:57 pmThe problem is that your statistics on human drivers includes drunk drivers, distracted drivers, drivers who flagrantly violate traffic laws, plainly incompetent drivers that haven't lost their licences as of yet and so forth. I don't think that an automated system that does just slightly better than that is acceptable at all. In fact I see absolutely no justification for self-driving unless it can dosignificantly betterthan an experienced, competent, wide-awake, undistracted and cautious human driver. IMO, that would only be practical at current technology levels if you at least used some additional sensing (LIDAR, etc), massive self-updating databases and perhaps external guide systems or artifacts. The sad part about Telsa FSD is that I think it probaby is possible, but they aren't doing it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 05:05:32 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on March 06, 2023, 04:45:24 pmSuch drivers don't exist...The truth between your and Tom66's posting is somewhere in the middle: on one hand doing self driving is very hard to do due to the interaction between drivers. Driving is way more than simple colission avoidance. OTOH a self driving system doesn't need to be perfect. It needs to be better than the average human driver (including drunks, retards and old people).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 05:50:07 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 06, 2023, 05:05:32 pmI remember being taught way back in drivers ed that driving is primarily a social interaction rather than a mechanical task, and social interactions are something computers are not good at. Any automated driving system has to be substantially better than average drivers for it to be acceptable. If it turns out that manufactures are liable, then the obvious outcome is that they will dedicate huge resources to legal teams to crush anyone involved in an accident with one of these self driving cars that tries to claim the manufacture is at fault. Even in cases where it is blatantly the fault of the self driving car, the companies will be able to bleed people dry in the courts and coerce them into settling. Maybe it's different in other parts of the world but here it is all but impossible for a regular individual to take on a large corporate entity, an entity with enormous resources can game the court system until the little guy runs out of money and can't afford to fight further, or in many cases they know this will happen and do whatever they can to cut their losses. It will be disastrous.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 05:59:33 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 06, 2023, 05:50:07 pmHence the class action.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 06:03:16 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on March 06, 2023, 05:59:33 pmAh yes, the windfall for the lawyers while giving the peasants a few pennies. A class action lawsuit is not going to help the random person that gets creamed by a self driving car, receives a debilitating injury and gets crushed in court by the manufacture of the car that caused the accident.I think if they do manage to hold the manufactures liable they will go out of business. A self driving car that is slightly better than the average driver will cause hundreds if not thousands of accidents a day around the world. Many of those will be serious and damages will be many billions of dollars a year. It could put them out of business.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 06:51:24 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 06, 2023, 05:05:32 pmI don't think that's true at all.QuoteAnd this is the is the precise point of unresolvable disagreement as I already pointed out. As long as videos and stories abound of self-driving cars making serious errors that I or any competent, awake driver wouldn't make--or even ones that humans imagine they wouldn't make--there isn't going to be acceptance of these systems, at least by me and most people my age. From conversations I've had, the younger crowd seems to be more willing to go along with this madness. That's fine for them, I suppose, as long as we pass laws making both the human and FSD fully and jointly liable for all damages.As an additional point, current Tesla self-driving systems are a bit more like aviation autopilot systems in one disturbing way, one that I think should be disqualifying--they only work under conditions that they can handle and when they are over their head, they shut off and hand the controls back to the human. To me this is a pretty clear admission that the human is the superior driver. FSD is claiming all of the safe miles driven but then it only works in situations where humans would be fairly safe as well as long as they are sober and attentive. Under more challenging conditions, it quits. Humans have to deal with 100% of driving situations without cherry-picking. When someone develops a system that works the other way around and has a button I can press so the car takes over when I'm in over my head in a low-visibility or other emergency situation, then I'll be impressed. Volvo's 'City Safety' system is an example of a system that goes in that direction as it intercedes when it detects a driver error, but it isn't FSD and certainly isn't marketed as such.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 07:00:57 pm
content: I wonder if a computer system can be programmed or taught to anticipate. Something humans can and in lots of situations will be the reason accidents are avoided. We can make judgement on how someone is driving and decide to not overtake because the driver is possibly drunk or aggressive and could do stupid things leading to an accident when being overtaken. Or make judgment on other situations to allow for safe responses.Call it a sixth sense, possibly non catch-able with whatever sensor there is out there.Driving is not a simple task of stay between the lines and uphold the speed limit, and just turn the steering wheel when needed. It is looking at the bigger picture of what is happening around the vehicle.By the way go back some 25 years and the self driving systems being worked on had inter vehicle communication to improve on safety. This way the self driving cars were able to adapt to each other. So the idea of external input is not so strange, but probably abandoned due to needing adaptation of every vehicle on the road to make it work. Just like ataradov wrote in the first response the realization of such a system is far to expensive.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 07:20:49 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on March 06, 2023, 04:45:24 pmThe problem is, a significant number of people on the roads *are* bad drivers. It's one thing to say we should only have good drivers on the road, but the fact is that we don't, given that in most countries they kill thousands of people per year, and this is considered a *good* amount compared to what it used to be. And it's common for those drivers to be so-called professional drivers; truck, taxi and van drivers and the like. Something about driving every day makes people less careful and attentive.Compared to railways, it is crazy how much we accept the death toll on the roads; in the UK the last major rail accident killed 31, that was 24 years ago, attributed ultimately to driver error, passing a signal at danger. Since then, we've only had single digit fatalities in the odd accident here and there. The railway network is about 10x safer per passenger-km than the roads.So if the bad and indifferent car drivers could be automated out - those are the people who likely don't care about what or how they drive, they just use a vehicle to get from A to B - then road safety couldsurelybe improved.To be clear, if all cars tomorrow were SDC's and we still had 40k deaths (in the US as an example) I'd be unhappy, because that's an unacceptably large figure. But if it turned out SDC's could get that down to half, I think I'd be pretty happy with that outcome, knowing that there should be no fundamental reason incremental improvement cannot get to nearly zero fatalities eventually.Quote from: james_s on March 06, 2023, 05:50:07 pmIf you have an accident in the UK it is very common for the insurance company to try to identify immediately if you are at fault or not, and to settle the case. For instance, if you as a driver run in to the rear of someone, barring a few particular mitigating circumstances, you are assumed to be liable. If you merge onto a highway and collide with a vehicle on that highway, you are at fault. If you kill someone, you are extremely likely to face court unless the facts of the matter are so clear that the police cannot see a reasonable chance that you would be convicted.With the amount of datalogging these SDC's do, I am sure that the first fatality from a mainstream operational vehicle will be examined in great detail. And the insurance company will probably pay out the costs to the victims and settle the case quickly. Most insurance companies try to avoid going through the courts as it's very expensive, so there are industry agreed rates on costs for injuries, fatalities, etc. No doubt there will be the odd court case and class action lawsuit but I don't see how this would be any different to how current motoring offences are handled.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 07:42:35 pm
content: I wouldn't trust insurance companies to apportion blame in a way which is scientifically useful.Some years ago I came off a motorcycle on a roundabout. It was covered in diesel - which, for the benefit of those unfamiliar with motorcycling - is extremely slippery and known to be one of the worst hazards out there for riders of two wheelers. Here in the UK, depositing anything on the highway which causes someone to have an accident is a criminal offence.I called the insurance company to report the incident."Whose fault was it?" they asked."Whichever idiot over filled their fuel tank and didn't put the cap back on properly", I replied."I need a name""What difference does it make whether or not I can name the specific, individual person that dumped oil all over the road?""If you can't provide a name, then we'll blame you".This, my friends, is how to lose a long term customer in the space of about two minutes.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 10:03:42 pm
content: Recent experience on railroads shows that external infrastructure for traffic control requires vigilant maintenance.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 10:20:29 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on March 06, 2023, 07:42:35 pmThat's just down to how insurance works though. An at-fault claim meansyourinsurer had to pay out. Since you came off your bike, presumably damaging it in the process, and there was no other person to take the blame for the accident then your insurer pays out. Statistically, people who make at-fault claims are more likely to make more at-fault claims in the future. Now, should there have been CCTV or some other way to prove who dropped the diesel, the claim could be put against them and might have been settled as a non-fault on your part.Every insurer will do this, so you're going to be disappointed should you need to make a similar complaint in the future. If you didn't want the at-fault claim, you may elect to pay for the damages yourself if they're not too large. This is what I did when I reversed into someone's 4x4 in a car park - oops - we traded details and I offered £200 to look the other way, which was accepted. I had to notify my insurer I had done this, and had everything in writing with the other party, but it was not logged as an at-fault claim and come renewal time my premium didn't budge.As for self-driving cars, I am sure the first few accidents will have significant regulatory oversight. Insurers may want to settle quickly but you can bet the NHTSA or equivalent will look into the incidents in considerable detail. Remember the current insurance system is more built for efficiency and the balance of probabilities rather than finding the true answer every time - no insurance company would have the budget to investigate your diesel spill. Ultimately it's just money, and civil claims in most common law countries are settled on the balance of probabilities rather than a criminal trial which is usually on beyond reasonable doubt.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 10:40:47 pm
content: A friend of mine thinks that sooner or later there will be an incident where a self driving car kills a bunch of people and then the whole thing will be outlawed. I tend to agree, but I'll watch and see what happens. For a while at least a lot of companies were jumping in and trying to rush this tech out into the world, and there is a lot of hubris. All it's going to take is an incident where one of these cars gets confused and plows into a big group of cyclists, a parade route or event in a park and mows down a dozen people. It actually doesn't even matter if they're statistically safer because people fail at statistical analysis. People worry about EV battery fires even though ICE cars catch fire at far greater rates. They worry about shark attacks even though far more people die from drowning in the water than from sharks. They fear flying because the plane could crash and yet driving to the airport is far more likely to result in a fatal crash.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 10:43:41 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 06, 2023, 10:20:29 pmMy point is, there's a really important subtlety to the terminology here.Was I, in practical engineering terms, "at fault?"As in, was there some identifiable, describable fault withmyactions that caused the accident? And if there was, what exactly was it? Whatwasthe fault?In this case, there really wasn't one. The fault was with whoever covered the road in diesel. Yet, as you point out, the way insurance works is they insist on this idea that whichevernamedperson is "at fault" is the one who pays out - and in the absence of a name, as in this case, they fall back to an error handler which intentionally breaks the database.The list of individualslabelled"at fault" no longer corresponds to the list of individuals whose drivingexhibiteda fault, and if information from the database were used to inform developers of self-driving equipment, somewhere there would be an engineer tasked with making a bike not fall over when it loses all grip at one of its wheels. Good luck with that.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 11:09:48 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on March 06, 2023, 10:43:41 pmNo. You were not, in the strictest sense, legal or otherwise, at fault. But...Quote from: AndyC_772 on March 06, 2023, 10:43:41 pm... as far as the insurer is concerned, you cost them £x more that day than the day before. They had to cut you a cheque, or pay for repairs to the bike. Injuries could have occurred. As far as the insurer is concerned, you are now a higher risk.The granularity of this is poor, but look at it from the insurer's perspective (I know, hard to see insurers as reasonable, but work with me here.) Before you have an accident, all an insurer knows is, your age, your vehicle, where you likely use that vehicle and maybe some ancillary details like your profession and employer. They build a risk model with that information, make a bet that they'll only have to pay out, say, £500 on average that year, work out their admin cost and present you with a premium for, say, £550. If you go and have an accident, then you change that risk model. Even if that's an accident which isn't fundamentally your *actual* fault, they might argue if you were travelling 10 mph slower, or at a different time of day, or on different roads, you would be less likely to be involved, and not made the claim. It would be nice if the model took more information in, but they've probably only just moved on from giant actuary tables for risk assessment. Insurance companies move slowly!If you want better granularity, you get things like black boxes which micro-analyse your driving. This often results in premiums reducing for genuinely careful drivers, but suddenly those drivers who are 'worse' find their premiums going up because they were previously lying nicely in the middle of that distribution of risk benefiting from those who drive safer on average keeping their premiums low. (Side note - the lack of transparency of these algorithms is one reason I will never get one of these boxes fitted.)Quote from: james_s on March 06, 2023, 10:40:47 pmI think your friend misunderstands just how cautious SDC's are, if anything they are too cautious compared to human drivers. Tesla's for instance phantom brake sometimes when they perceive pedestrians on the road regardless of whether they are really there - the NN ends up being overly sensitive to these objects because it's hyper-trained on them. The Waymo car will pretty much not move if there is a pedestrian standing near to it. I could actually foresee very effective protests against SDC's by say taxi drivers now out of a job, you merely need to get close to one to interfere with its operation and it will shut right down. There have been some experiments with fake stop signs on billboards to interfere with SDC's, which will need some interesting workarounds. I actually think we will get to the point where we have remote human drivers to 'unstick' vehicles that get stuck, but the number of these operators will be many fewer than cars on the road so it will still work out as a net win from a labour savings perspective. And that's really what SDC's are about from a commercial perspective, Waymo et al. don't really care that much about safety, other than not wanting to be embroiled in lawsuits, they want to run taxis where you don't need to employ people to run them.I could see freak accidents like that Uber SDC which ran down the cyclist - Uber tried to pin the blame on the safety driver who was texting while driving but looking at the footage, the cyclist was wearing all black pushing a black bike at night with no lights, and it's hard to see how any driver could have seen that either - but those won't stop the rollout of SDC's.SDC's won't be outlawed because the US knows it needs to stay ahead in this field to remain competitive with the world. But it will create a huge rift in the labour market and it's alarming that there seems to be no plan to cope with this sudden loss of employment. I think the statistic is that in about 30 out of the 50 states, driving a truck is the most common job.

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 11:26:07 am
content: Slightly OT - FSD strikes me as a technology that manufacturers (or nerdy billionaires) want to create for consumers much more than consumers are clamoring for some new technology...One way or another, we are all paying for the development of technologies like this, when I wonder how much people really want them. Add to that possible requirements for investments into physical infrastructure and consumers are paying for things many of them may not even want.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 11:43:08 am
content: AI FSD is never going to be the same as a human driver.It will always be "fundamentally different" and this is just something the industry and the public will have to accept if it's ever allowed to drive unsupervised.The types of situations were human drivers die on the roads wont be the same as the types of situations where people die while being driven by unsupervised AI FSD cars. The AI will be able to do some pretty quick maneuvers to save you from an accident that a human wouldn't have the reflexes or awareness of. But the AI will crash in some situations where a human would never have done so.If there's one thing you can guarantee it's that those two approaches to controlling a car on the road (human vs FSD) are very different and both have vastly different strengths and weaknesses. And that is ok, and to be expected.Regarding external infrastructure to aid FSD. I suspect this will come in the form of more/better signage to instruct AI FSD of anything it needs to be aware of, rather than an online database.Signage is better because it gives a solid location to reference the meaning of the sign from.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 12:39:40 pm
content: I think what we could use are entirely new towns, just to show what is possible.Make a new town and pick a level 3 traffic follower, force all residents to only use that for motorized transport and engineer the town around it. Not only is the town designed to accommodate the automation, the automation doesn't have to accommodate human drivers most of the time. Human driving would only be for exceptions, requiring either an emergency or a permit. Visitors will need to park outside the town and then take an automated taxi.Inside town limits, the level 3 car can then become personal rapid transit.

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 03:58:49 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on March 07, 2023, 12:39:40 pmSounds like a resort more than a town... Like Disney's EPCOT Future World...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 06:02:36 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on March 07, 2023, 12:39:40 pmThe fundamental flaw here is expecting everyone to live, work and operate within that town. In the real world most people can't move every time they get a new job, and they have friends and family in other towns. I don't know anyone that doesn't regularly drive to other towns/cities than the one in which they live. That doesn't stop local politicians from fantasizing about having a "walking city" and planning their development around it. The result is terrible congestion with people driving around in circles looking for a place to park.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 06:07:41 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 06, 2023, 11:09:48 pmI think he has a better understanding of them than you. They may be cautious but that hasn't stopped multiple Teslas from slamming into the back of parked fire engines and other emergency vehicles at high speed. There have been a few that have slammed into freeway dividers and walls at high speed. It is extremely arrogant to think that these can be designed so that this sort of thing will never happen. It is just luck that none of the things they have hit at high speed have been a cluster of pedestrians or a bus full of kids. It will happen eventually.Personally I don't even understand why anyone would want a self driving car. The whole point of having a car is you get to drive it. If I can't drive a car I'll just take the bus.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 06:16:48 pm
content: I'd quite like one for occasions when I'm not able to drive myself - like, for example, home from a night involving beer.Perhaps when I'm older, and no longer as physically fit as I am today, it'll be useful too.I've no interest at all in one that I might be expected to take over and drive if the computer sees something it can't cope with, though. The entire use case for a self driving car revolves around the fact that there are times when Ican'tdrive it, or, by extension, take responsibility for it.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 06:40:11 pm
content: There is an interesting correlation I have noticed. In various threads on this forum many users have expressed their opinions about standard transmissions vs automatic transmissions. To a large degree those that favor standard transmissions and the driving experience are the ones denigrating FSD technology, and projecting their views of the market onto the entire market. The penetration of automatic transmissions into the US marketplace is an indicator that there is a flaw in this perception.More on topic, I definitely agree that the task of FSD could be greatly simplified with external infrastructure. The version of FSD envisioned by GM in the 1950s (implemented only on limited access freeways with guide wires in each lane, and no human driven cars allowed) could easily be implemented today. Whether it is impossible without external infrastructure seems to me to be an open question, and one that has both technical and social content.The required performance of an FSD vehicle is largely a social issue, as indicated by all the discussion of liability and whether FSD has to be merely better than the drunks and otherwise incapacitated drivers that inhabit our roads, better than the average driver, or substantially better than the very best drivers. In my circle of acquaintances opinions on this subject vary widely, and with a noticeable trend in acceptance of FSD among the younger members of that group. Which indicates that even if the answer were sorted out today, there is real potential for change over time. That difference in acceptance is likely regional also, as indicated by the widely different acceptance of automatic transmissions in different parts of the world.This social acceptance thing has other parameters. The Teslas driving into the backs of vehicles gets lots of attention, and it is often stated that it is something a human driver would never do. But a close personal friends wife did just that, and a few minutes searching on YouTube will surface many other cases people driving into the backs of construction vehicles, service vehicles and police cars making traffic stops. While it is obvious that a fully attentive, cautious and capable person wouldn't do these things, no one is constantly fully attentive. Our perceptions of what people do are often not data driven.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 06:50:46 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 07, 2023, 06:40:11 pmI *hate* automatic transmissions, I think manual transmission proficiency should be required to get a driver's license, then if you really want an automatic you can get one. Manual transmissions make better drivers that are more engaged and more attentive, less likely to be multitasking. With a manual it is impossible to mistake the gas for the brake and smash through a building. You can't coast along in la-la land with a phone in one hand and a coffee in the other steering with your knee, you're actively using both hands and both feet. The problem we have now is that so many people have never had the opportunity to drive a manual that few ask for one and few cars are made with one, which results in even fewer people experiencing one. Many people don't even know somebody that has one that could teach them. My number one requirement for a ICE powered car is manual transmission, if it doesn't have that I'm not interested, won't even consider it.It is probably the same characteristic that makes me not want self driving. When it comes to machinery I am a control freak, I want complete control over the machine, period, this is not negotiable. I absolutely loathe technology that tries to be helpful and guess what I want because more often than not it is wrong and I find myself fighting with the tech.A human driver that slams into the back of a lit up emergency vehicle should lose their license on the spot and be charged with negligent driving, that is inexcusible.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 06:52:58 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 07, 2023, 06:50:46 pmQED

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 07:08:14 pm
content: I mean this is hardly surprising is it? It should be obvious that a person that dislikes having the car shift for them is going to dislike having the car drive for them even more. At least I would think that's obvious. For some people a car is nothing more than a transportation appliance, Americans in particular are lazy and just want to get where they're going, other people like to drive. Another symptom of this is that the vast majority of cars are incredibly boring and nondescript, the market seems to have settled on the generic CUV design, virtually everyone is making them and they all have comically enormous grills and emblems because that's about the only thing that differentiates the brands.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 07:18:09 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 07, 2023, 06:02:36 pmNot everyone, just the people who self select to live there and sign the HOA agreement.QuoteThe car would simply be a car outside of the town.By removing the human element most of the time, it could double as personal rapid transport inside the town.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 07:50:30 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 07, 2023, 06:40:11 pmReally? I can only think of one example that exhibits that correlation. I have no issues or phobias about automatic transmissions, antilock brakes and so on. However, I have at times observed significant problems with these technologies at times--there were some real issues with antilock brakes when they were first introduced, for example. I wasn't around for the advent of automatic transmissions, but I know of specific examples where a manual was much preferred. I have no problems with the overallideaof FSD, but I don't think it works nearly well enough yet and I don't think the current path is going to get us there. We can't even manage self-driving trains that stay on the rails, except for some small closed-circuit applications like airport trams.For me, unlikejames_s, I have no desire to shift my own gears even though I'm perfectly capable and I've driven plenty of miles so I'd be perfectly happy to let something competent take over--especially on long trips. I'm not "anti-FSD", I just don't believe it exists yet.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 07:52:06 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on March 07, 2023, 07:18:09 pmI think HOAs should be abolished and outlawed, I was so fortunate to find a house in a neighborhood that doesn't have one but I know many people that are stuck with them and can't get rid of them. They are like a cancer that infects neighborhoods and once they are there it is very difficult to eradicate them.Either way don't think this is going to work, but if someone wants to build this little utopia somewhere go right ahead, there's lots of open space in the flyover areas in the middle of the US. Maybe it will work for people that are young and unattached, that can work remotely.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 05:14:30 am
content: Quote from: Marco on March 07, 2023, 12:39:40 pmOne observation to mention about this, Marco who signals with his flag to be from the Netherlands, suggests building new towns, but in the Netherlands, there is little room to do so and at the moment has mostly a building stop due to nitrogen emissions.Further more many inhabitants of the old countries are proud of their old cities. So good luck in getting them to renew everything to allow for full self drive vehicles to take over.About stick versus automatic, I'm getting lazy so would not mind automatic, but our newish car is stick, so for the next so many years it is stick. Also would not mind a fully self driven car for the longer trips, but don't see the technology become mature and safe enough in the foreseeable future either.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 05:19:58 am
content: Nitrogen emissions? The air is something like 80% nitrogen, or do you mean nitrogen compounds? What does that have to do with building?I wish they would stop building housing around where I live. The leadership is obsessed with trying to keep up with population growth by building thousands and thousands of houses and apartments, but it seems completely lost on them that due to the popularity of the region there is effectively infinite demand, the more housing they build the more people move here. Something has to be the limiting factor, as it is I used to love living here but I can hardly wait to retire and move away, it is far too crowded and I feel like the wildlife that is being crowded out of its native habitat.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 05:34:17 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 08, 2023, 05:19:58 amTell that to the Dutch government..In the Netherlands there is this whole ordeal about farmers and the emissions of "stikstof" which translates to nitrogen. Due to the fact that the emissions are to high nature is suffering, is the argument. The little of what is left of nature is having ill effects of all these emissions. Why the building trade is suffering of it is due to the fact that the process of building also brings all sorts of emissions. Think of the vehicles for deliveries, cranes to lift things, etc.But the controversial bit in the whole thing is that due to population growth and more and more people staying or becoming single there is the need for >100000 new homes build every year.P.S. the population growth is not due to birth, but due to the in stream of asylum seekers.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 06:07:41 am
content: I think the happy medium would be to have self driving corridors. Make all highways have the infrastructure in place. Once you hit a town then you have to take over for the side streets.The infrastructure could be as simple has having posts with transponders of sort on them or even just QR codes or other subtle markers that are easy to pickup by automation. Ideally it should be something passive that requires no power since there is no power along most highways, at least not low voltage. GPS on it's own is not accurate enough especially at driving speeds and required reaction times. Ex: driving 100km/h less that a foot away from other cars, civilian GPS is just not accurate enough to make that kind of judgement in real time like that.The issue with self driving as is right now is it relies on lot of things to be perfect, such as the road being very clean, no pot holes, no snow, proper lines and signage, etc. That is not a very typical road at all. Highway 11 for example is usually snow packed, and most roads are full of potholes that you need to avoid.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 06:26:56 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on March 08, 2023, 06:07:41 amLet me know where you drive 100 km/hr one foot from other cars. I want to avoid the area.Afaik GPS is not used directly for guidance or navigation. The information is melded with rate and acceleration sensors and the radar sonar and vision sensors to get an estimate of where the car is. Much like human drivers do. And as prior posters said, because the details are different the successes and failures are different.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 07:07:56 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 08, 2023, 05:19:58 amIt's economically suicidal limits on anything which can cause nitrogen accumulation in the soil, so NOx but also fertilizer run off and vapour (ammonia from animal manure).For new town experiments I had countries with a little more room and a little less EU in mind.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 07:13:36 am
content: Quote from: AlbertL on March 05, 2023, 06:12:21 amI've been making that public call for the last decade, and I extended that call again recently on The Amp Hour episode for another decade.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 07:16:23 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on March 08, 2023, 06:07:41 amI don't think that will ever happen.They all can't agree on what type of charger plug to use and how you pay for it. I have no less than half dozen different EV charging app on my phone.For self driving cars to succeed in the market they must be able to operate within existing infrastructure.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 07:18:40 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on March 07, 2023, 07:50:30 pmOur new Sydney metro system is driverless. No issues yet that I aware of.10 order of magnitude difference in complexity in that and what FSD needs in the real worlds though.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 07:20:22 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on March 07, 2023, 06:16:48 pmYes, there is only downside to a system where you have to assume control at a split seconds notice. It's either 100% drunk in the back seat or it's just glorified cruise control.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 07:56:36 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on March 08, 2023, 05:34:17 amPerhaps they should close off the border and stop allowing them to flood in? This is something that has often bothered me, all sorts of countries have people flowing in seeking refuge from other countries. I would rather help them sort out the problems in their own country whichever that may be rather than fleeing and adding to the strain of another area.Bottom line I guess is that the human population around the globe is massive and growing at an incredible rate. This is not sustainable and sooner or later something catastrophic is going to happen. It's relatively easy to not reproduce, I've never really understood why so many people so strongly wish to do it, and yet most of the parents I know are exhausted and miserable all the time.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 08:32:37 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 08, 2023, 07:56:36 amI feel the Dutch are always trying to be the "best boy in the class", but the problem is much bigger then just the Netherlands. The whole immigration and refugee mishap is being handled at EU level mostly and it is frowned upon when one country within the EU decides to close its borders for these asylum seekers.I agree with you that it would be better to deal with it in the country of origin, but that brings a whole other can of worms. What to do with dictators and their followers that wreak havoc on others making them flee. You would have to invade and destroy them to try to rebuild a democracy and hope it will stand the test of time.Quote from: james_s on March 08, 2023, 07:56:36 amMy feelings too. Neither me or the wife ever had the primordial desire to reproduce.Only time will tell were it all ends up.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 09:55:59 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 07, 2023, 06:50:46 pmI have never driven a manual car in my life, sems like an absolute waste of effort. Manual cars are pretty rare here now I think.I just checked, and sure enough:https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/by-the-numbers-the-decline-of-the-manual-transmission

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 10:10:49 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 07, 2023, 07:08:14 pmI love automatic and I consider myself a bit of a driving enthusiast. The dual-clutch transmission in my car can shift faster and more efficiently than any manual can, is smooth as butter when it comes to modest acceleration, and reduces the need to think about shifting gears in traffic or around the city. I disagree that having an automatic means you can get distracted; on the highway, a manual can sit in 5th or 6th gear just fine whilst someone decides to text and drive.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 10:29:42 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 08, 2023, 07:56:36 amAlmost impossible, once they get across the border or near your coast on a sinking ship without papers what are you going to do?Barring some fundamental change, ie. singularity, the most humane solution would be an evolved version of the Australian solution. Buy land from some thin populated third world country and create a colony for refugees. They'd have to rip up a ton of post WW2 and EU treaties though, which is never going to happen.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 10:31:46 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 08, 2023, 09:55:59 amIt's not like you have anything better to do.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 11:19:54 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 08, 2023, 06:26:56 amIdeally you are not actually going 100km/h once you are at 1 foot but in a typical driving situation you can go from 100km/h to having to slow down, stop, make a turn etc and in any of those situations you could be a foot away from other cars in the stopped state or while turning as there may be other cars turning too. These are all split second decisions that you do passively while driving, but automating this to be accurate 100% of the time is not easy. On the 400 series highways it's also not that uncommon to be bumper to bumper, though it's typically at like 2km/h. But I have been in such traffic when it was actually moving at the speed limit. It's a little unnerving. I wouldn't want to be driving in that myself, I was a passenger.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 11:21:06 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 08, 2023, 07:16:23 amYeah true, it seems companies/government etc really don't like standards and all want to do their own thing, so it would be very hard to coordinate this.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 12:04:58 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 08, 2023, 07:56:36 amThe European borders are locked down pretty well. And those who get in without permission, get send back to their country at some point. Europe is not like the US where people who stay long enough get a free pass. There are cases where people get send back to their original country after 10+ years. Doesn't matter if they built a life for themselves or not. Illegal is illegal.However, quite a large number of people are being let into Europe because 'we' need the workforce. There are not enough people to do all the work. Some people keep complaining about letting so many strangers in, but the numbers are still quite low relatively speaking.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 12:09:34 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 08, 2023, 07:16:23 amI disagree. That statement is similar to saying that BEVs should run on gasoline. Self driving cars will need specific infrastructure and that just won't be rolled out at a large scale any time soon. IIRC Waymo and Uber have been making detailed maps of parts of cities so their self driving cars can operate there. OTOH 6G mobile networks will also be usefull as a terrestrial positioning system so the problem with having a precise location in dense urban areas is likely to solve itself over time.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 05:57:00 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 08, 2023, 09:55:59 amWhat effort? It's like walking, once you know how to do it you don't even think about the mechanical process, it's effortless. It's only when you go and drive an automatic car that it feels so incredibly boring and soul-less, you have less control, you have less engine braking, it feels slushy and mushy, less power, lower fuel economy, with an automatic you're not really driving so much as just aiming. I'm also a big fan of the mechanical simplicity of a manual gearbox. It's much smaller, lighter, simpler, there are no cooling lines or heat exchanger, no clutch packs or valve body, no electronics, it can go hundreds of thousands of miles without so much as a fluid change. When you do have to remove it for something such as to replace the clutch, it's so much easier to handle than a big bulky heavy slushbox.But like I said, vast numbers of people are in your position and have never driven a manual in their life, they don't know what they're missing.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 05:59:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 08, 2023, 12:04:58 pmAre there not enough people there to do all the work, or not enough people there willing to do the work for wages that are lower than what a native citizen expects?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 06:02:26 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on March 08, 2023, 10:29:42 amPut them on another ship and drop them off back where they claim to have come from? If you let it slide and just let people enter illegally and stay, it only encourages more people to come there illegally. If everyone that doesn't go through the proper immigration path gets sent back it is less likely for others to try to shortcut.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 06:46:32 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 08, 2023, 06:02:26 pmThey'll just claim to be from basket case du jour which you can't reasonably return them to. They will often be clearly lying ... then you start playing chicken, how long are you willing to hold them hostage to speak the truth? Not very long at all, we don't have the stomach to put them in concentration camps. Of course occasionally even if they aren't lying, the sheer amount coming in from the actual basket cases is a huge problem regardless.New colonies solves it for both cases.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 07:04:48 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 08, 2023, 05:57:00 pmJust to show that there are other positions in the space of people selecting drive trains for their vehicles, I learned to drive on manual transmissions, have purchased and owned others, and prefer an automatic. I also have automatic choke and automatic spark advance and an electric starter. I am missing out on all sorts of opportunities for control, and have traded simplicity in the vehicle for ease of use. I view the automobile as a tool to go from place to place, not as a source of pleasure. I do take drives for pleasure, but it isn't for the joy of making a car follow a lane around curves and over hills, but to see new places, enjoy scenery and get away from my daily surroundings.There is nothing wrong with enjoying the act of driving. Many people do. But don't project that onto others. That is as bad as saying that if you don't enjoy American football you are somehow deficient.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 08:49:35 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 08, 2023, 05:59:43 pmWhere it comes to the NL: there are not enough people. The unemployment rate is below 4%. Some companies are closing down because they can't get enough people to do the work.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 09:03:18 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 08, 2023, 05:19:58 amI think the reference is to things like oxides being emitted into the atmosphere and nitrogen fertilizers flushing into rivers. The latter is a good example of out of touch governments. In the 1980s fertilizer runoff was becoming a major problem in Europe, clogging up rivers with weed, and killing off the fish. However, fertilizer is expensive so there was always an economic incentive to avoid that runoff. Sure enough, people have developed various technologies, such as the spreaders using GPS data to selectively fertilize specific parts of each field, to minimise waste. Now various governments are suddenly trying to suppress farming when the problem is already on the decline.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 09:07:09 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 08, 2023, 09:55:59 amEven in the UK, where a huge number of people are addicted to manual transmissions, especially in small cars, automatics are now slightly outselling manuals. Many luxury cars are not even offered in a manual version, although that is not such a big change. Even in the 80s luxury cars sold mostly as automatics. The big change is in small cars.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 10:15:35 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 08, 2023, 12:09:34 pmThat's why I said that, I don't see any such rollout happening. And then you need to built this stuff into the cars and have universal agreement.And then who's going to pay? What percentage of the public actually car about self driving cars? And those that do, how many of those are going to be willing to pay for such infrastructure through their tax dollars?If you leave it up to the car companies to pay for it then you'll just end up with different incompatible systems.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 10:17:35 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 08, 2023, 09:07:09 pmYes. Pretty much the only cars with manual here are the ultra-cheap tiny cars where saving $1-2k in cost is a big percentage of the ticket price.Maybe work vehicles, but that's pretty much it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 10:27:12 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 08, 2023, 05:57:00 pmYou are projecting your desires onto others, that doesn't work.Some (most?) people just want to get from A-BAnd who says I can't enjoy driving an automatic as much or even more than you enjoy driving your manual. Just because you like having one hand on the stick and manually controlling it, others might like other aspects of driving like hanging one arm out the window hand surfing just relaxing cruising along regardless of the conditions. I LOVE driving my EV, it's smooth, it's quiet, and I don't have to constantly dick around with a stick in traffic. Do you really enjoy your manual stick in heavy traffic,really? Why?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 11:34:17 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 08, 2023, 10:17:35 pmEven then many of these have at least automated manual transmissions as an option. For instance, even Smart cars now have dual clutch automatic transmissions though you can still get a manual if you ask.Besides, on my automatic car there exists a manual mode and it behaves much like a manual car. It will even let you hit an electronically limited red line and won't shift up unless you sit at that red line for more than 10 seconds or so (probably just component protection at that point!) About the only thing it won't let you do is destroy your engine/gearbox by shifting into the wrong gear, but I'm not sure anyone wanted that feature to stay.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 11:38:13 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 08, 2023, 11:34:17 pmMy ICE car has a CVT and "manual" drive mode. You shift the stick over and then use it like a manual but shifting back and forth to go up and down the "gears".

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2023, 07:54:48 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 08, 2023, 11:34:17 pmA manually shifted automatic is pointless. You have all the mechanical and hydraulic complexity and weight of a slushbox and no clutch pedal so you lose that aspect of control which is hugely beneficial in snow and ice. It's kind of the worst of both worlds, may as well just have an automatic at that point. You'd have to try pretty hard to shift into the wrong gear and destroy something, if you try to for example shift a manual gearbox into 2nd gear at highway speed it won't go in, unless maybe you force the lever really hard and get the synchro to spool up the input shaft. These manual modes are toys for people that want the video game experience, it is totally different than driving a real manual, it's not even close.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2023, 08:00:19 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 08, 2023, 10:27:12 pmI'm not projecting anything. I'm simply saying that if everyone had the opportunity to drive a manual, a much larger percentage of people would realize that it's fun and choose one. When nobody gets exposure, many fewer are interested in jumping through the hoops. It's similar to the reason we should still have shop class in high school, you give people a taste of these things and they find out they like it. Those that don't, fine, that's why automatics are available, go ahead and make that choice, but I think everyone should try a manual too.Driving in heavy traffic is a miserable experience no matter what you have. I hardly ever do it, on the rare occasions I go into the office I take the bus. When I drive it's to go visit a friend or family member, run errands, head out on a camping trip or just go for a drive, I enjoy cruising along a twisty mountain road on a nice day, the fewer other cars around the better. Driving is fun and relaxing, I've always enjoyed it.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2023, 08:02:27 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 09, 2023, 07:54:48 amUnless your gearbox has a lot of wear.I had that long long back with an Opel Kadett, I wanted to shift up, but got the reverse.Was easy to fix. Got a second hand gearbox from a scrapyard and replaced it myself.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2023, 08:19:03 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on March 09, 2023, 08:02:27 amMost of the cars I've spent a significant amount of time driving have been Volvo and Saab. For many years Volvo has a collar you have to pull up in order to shift into reverse and I forget what the Saab had (it's been almost 20 years) but there was some kind of interlock, I have never managed to shift into reverse accidentally but I suppose anything is possible. Reverse on the cars I can think of is way over in the upper-left, so nowhere near any of the gears I'd be using at speed. I know there are some other shift patterns out there though.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2023, 08:27:05 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 09, 2023, 07:54:48 amNope, it's a dual clutch transmission. Think of it a bit like two manual gearboxes bolted together with an electronically actuated clutch on each to select the relevant gear.In general the arrangement is one shaft has R, 2, 4, 6 and the other has 1, 3, 5 and maybe 7.The gearbox computer preselects the next gear when you are accelerating. For instance in gear 3, the actuators have selected 4 on the 1st shaft, so all that happens when it changes gear is the next clutch actuates instead. This also works for downshifting. You might be cruising in 6th (top gear on my car), in which case 3rd is preloaded on the alternate shaft, and if you gun the go pedal it will jump straight to 3rd.The DCT can shift faster than even a trained manual driver and on the hybrid models the gear RPM matching is done with the electric motor to further speed up the change.I can't see why you'd want to slip the clutch in snow and ice. If you need less torque you can force the car into 2 or 3 and then just press the go pedal less. I found electric only operation to have the best performance here as the traction control can modulate the torque more quickly and over a wider range. Obviously not all vehicles have that but the car can modulate the clutches just like any other manual, it does that when you're parking at low speeds if the engine is running.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2023, 09:21:37 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 09, 2023, 08:19:03 amCan't remember what protection should have been on it, but our new Ford Fiesta has the reverse in the bottom right, but you have to pull up a collar to do so.Might also have been going down to a to lower gear. It's over 40 years ago, and all I remember is a big bump and bang and no more drive on the wheels. Can't recall how we got it back to my parents house. Do know it was half way between where I lived at the time, and their house. My dad had all the tools needed to do the repair.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2023, 10:27:33 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 08, 2023, 10:27:12 pmI agree. In general I think an automatic gearbox is just more comfortable. But there are some nuances. From my limited experiences with automatic gearboxes in cars I can say some are utterly horrible (like the 2003 VW Passat) and having a manual gearbox definitely is better. More recently I drove around in a nearly new Nissan Rogue (rental) and the automatic gearbox worked just fine. Except when going dowhill; I needed to manually change the gear to get enough engine braking. It shouldn't be hard to add a feature that does that automatically as well?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2023, 04:37:28 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 09, 2023, 07:54:48 amI and many people my age have had plenty of 'exposure' to manual transmissions and most still prefer a good automatic transmission in almost every case. If you don't get the point of a 'manumatic' (a feature rarely used but very handy when applicable) I'd have been content to just let you have your opinion until you mentioned snow and ice. All I'll say is that anyone with snowplowing experience (light duty pickups, not the large dump trucks) wants an automatic, even a crappy one. And that's not due to lack of exposure, experience or skill.I do take exception to your worn out 'slushbox' insult. Yes, if you were comparing the transmissions available on a 1970's Volvo, the 3-speed automatic could fairly be called that. But if you compare the agricultural 4-speed manual in the old Porsche 930 Turbo with a Tiptronic in a 997, well.... Modern 'good' automatics shift quicker than your left toes can twitch and do it with no loss of torque continuity. That can be a big deal.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2023, 06:18:42 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 09, 2023, 08:27:05 amYes I'm familiar with the DSG, I've driven a VW that had one. Most of the manually shifted automatics I've driven have been of the conventional type or worse, a CVT. At least the DSG is nice and crisp.I suspect you've never driven a manual in snow and ice or it would be very obvious why I'd want one. One specific trick I've used quite a few times is when I find myself unable to get over a hump like the snow that has built up in front of my stopped car, or the hump of a curb to get into a driveway is to ride and pulse the clutch such that the car rocks forward and back, the rocking motion gets larger and larger until there is enough movement to crest the hump and then you're off, I'm not aware of any way to do this in an automatic. Another big advantage is in a situation where engine braking causes the wheels to slip and slide, if you push in the clutch the drivetrain is instantly disconnected and the car will straighten right out. This works on wet roads too if the rear end starts to slide out, at least on RWD cars.I've driven everything, manual, automatic, automatic with lockup torque converter, DSG, CVT, RWD, FWD, AWD, gasoline, diesel, hybrid, several EVs, and everything from subcompact to large commercial trucks, antique to modern and for all of the ICE options the plain manual is far superior to me.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2023, 09:20:20 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 09, 2023, 06:18:42 pmI've driven both a manual car and this car in snow of similar severity. I would take the DSG hybrid every day of the week in those conditions.It is far easier to modulate power at low speeds with the electric motor but even using the engine you just press the accelerator slightly and it will ride the clutch for some time. Unlike a manual though it will eventually move you off the bite point (eventually goes neutral) if you are there for more than about 20-30s. This is to prevent the clutches from overheating. But I guess you can burn the clutch in a manual if you wanted to. The larger clutch plate probably gives it a bit more endurance in comparison, though the clutches in most DSG's are wet oil type. I assume the oil gives them better endurance but I don't know for sure.As for coasting, shifting into neutral or being in drive with the go pedal off achieves that function. In ice I put my car in 'drive' instead of 'regen' which means it coasts when the pedal is released rather than brakes, reducing the chance of a slip.Ultimately though I've never had too much issue with decent tyres and plenty of braking distance. Snow tyres make a huge difference in terms of grip, more so than any choice of gearbox. In my FWD car with these on I found myself climbing snowy hills with ease despite several 4x4's with presumably all-season tyres being stuck at the bottom.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2023, 09:34:49 am
content: I miss my Subaru P1 with winter tyres. Manual gearbox, grabby clutch, big turbo.It took some skill to drive in snow and ice for sure, but that's completely OK. It never once got stuck.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2023, 09:42:40 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 10, 2023, 09:20:20 amIts really hard to compare what you used to find in one car with what you find today in another. They keep refining traction control, chassis stability control, torque vectoring, ABS, and so on. That whole package can make a huge difference to performance in poor weather.