A Good PCB Manufacture for Hobby PCB - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 02:08:46 am
content: I'm finding most PCB companies want an account created before they provide a quote.In the past I remember uploading the gerber files without an account and it would report any errors along with a quote.PCBway is the same, but they also seem expensive. My board is appox. 120mm x 60mm and (unfortunately) four-layers. They are stating around $80, but they want an account created to continue along with most other companies.Does anyone know a better source for PCBs that may be cheaper?

author: retiredfeline
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 02:12:33 am
content: Quite a few of the usual suspects will provide an estimate on their website without logging in. The error checking is usually after you have made an order. In the past I've found pcbshopper.com useful for comparing prices.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 02:17:16 am
content: QuoteNot the end of the world, but still, somewhat annoying because creating accounts results in emails which results in having to "opt" out.I'm on their site now and they are listing "transparent" PCBs.This sounds cool, have you or anyone tried these (or are these for flex PCBs)?

author: retiredfeline
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 02:23:04 am
content: I don't get that many messages from PCB fabs, and I have accounts with a few, only the special offer now and then, so it doesn't bother me..

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 02:30:02 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on July 08, 2024, 02:17:16 amTo be clear (har har), I think that's transparentsoldermask, not the whole pcb. On normal boards it's not that impressive... just kinda looks like a board without soldermask where the fr4 core shows through. It can be nice on a board with a lot of copper pours where there isn't as much core showing or if you do a colored core material (eghttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/clear-soldermask-and-black-core-pcb/)

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 02:37:33 am
content: JLCPCB shows $38 for x5 120mm x 60mm 4 layer PCBs without logging in. (Canadian $)If a log in, it's the same price. As a 1st time customer, you may get a coupon that significantly lowers that price.JLCPCB rarely, if ever, bothered me with spam emails.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 02:45:37 am
content: This is all a big help.I didn't want to create an account only to find out the price is outrageous before needing to move onto another company.Maybe the higher cost is due to four-layers, but I remember a time when PCB companies were advertising dirt cheap prices for a quantity of maybe five.

author: retiredfeline
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 02:54:13 am
content: The cheap offers are usually for under 100x100 mm. In the past I've even partitioned designs with wire stitched boards to stay under that size.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 03:13:33 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on July 08, 2024, 02:45:37 amIt depends... If I change the PCB dimensions to 100mm x 100mm 4 layer then the price drops to $9.55 for 5 PCBs even though the total PCB area is more than the 60mm x 120mm option.Maybe change the dimensions of your design to save a few $$ if you can.x5 100mm x 100mm 2 layer PCBs are only $2.73 + $2 shipping if I'm not in a hurry. Last two orders were here in less than 2 weeks time after upload.Be aware that if you switch back and forth between PCB build options sometimes the price will seem to stick higher. This is usually because the via covering options (Maybe others too) don't go back to the default when switching between layer options. But if you manually reset them, all is OK again.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 06:14:29 am
content: https://pcbshopper.com/...and you are making too big of a deal about making an account. That doesn't lock you into anything.

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 06:20:18 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on July 08, 2024, 02:08:46 amAlways have a garbage gmail account. You use that for places that want an account. Life's too short.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 01:59:10 pm
content: JLCPCB looks like a good suggestion.My board is four-layers, however, when I upload the gerber files, they are "detecting" two-layers. I tried uploading gerber files from another board that has multiple layers and was built years ago, and it's also "detecting" only two-layers.Am I doing something wrong or is this the way the website is and the additional layers will be recognized in the gerber files when it's built?

author: retiredfeline
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 02:38:08 pm
content: If you are using X2 attributes, the inner layers will be identified as such in the metadata. If not pay attention to the naming of the layers, you might want to check JLCPCB's preferred scheme. And of course make sure you have included those inner layers in the .zip or .rar file.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 02:44:27 pm
content: QuoteNot sure what this is, but I made the inner layers a 'signal layer' and added them to the signal layer stack up. Initially I only had top and bottom in the stack up, so I realized this error and added "all" signal layers.As for naming, I'll check the website as this would make sense. I named them INT1 and INT2 (for internal) which is the naming convention I took from my previous job.INT1 and INT2 are in the gerber .ZIP file and follow all the same parameters as 'top' and 'bottom'.Update: you may have been correct.https://jlcpcb.com/help/article/592-gerber-files-preparationLooks like 'top' and 'bottom' should actually be GTL and GBL, while inner layers are G2L, G3L, etc..I assume the first inner layer isn't actually G1L?So I should name them GTL, G2L, G3L, and GBL (i.e. top, inner 1, inner 2, and bottom)?

author: retiredfeline
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 09:48:11 pm
content: Do whatever you need to for your fabricator to recognise the files.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 11:35:30 pm
content: QuoteI agree.I changed the file names and the website recognized all four-layers. My order has been placed, paid, and now I'm waiting on them to "review" it (about 10-60min).The suggestion to use JLCPCB was great. The other site was good too, and looked more like they did a price and availability search - thanks for both suggestions.

author: aeberbach
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 11:59:31 pm
content: I was surprised recently to compare prices between JLCPCB and PCBWAY. I guess all the cash for YouTube sponsorship has to come from somewhere, because PCBWAY is now surprisingly expensive compared to JLCPCB!

author: retiredfeline
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 09:37:24 am
content: What's made jlcpcb cheap for me of late is the low low shipping price of USD1.50 for 5 boards. How can the courier make any money? Maybe they do lots of Temu and Shein deliveries. This brings the cost to just over AUD1 per board delivered.

author: stretchyman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 11:41:45 am
content: SIMPLE ANSWERJLC

author: newto
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 01:35:05 pm
content: Quote from: aeberbach on July 09, 2024, 11:59:31 pmI think it's because JLCPCB focuses more on basic PCBs, while PCBWAY has more advanced features. For flex PCBs for example, JLCPCB only offers 1 or 2 layer, while PCBWAY will do multilayer stackups and rigid-flex. But on the other hand, JLC will cost you less than 10% the price for 5x 2-layer flex PCBs up to 100x100mm compared to PCBWAY. They also have way fewer thickness options, surface finish options, copper thickness, even basic silkscreen colour options.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 01:47:57 pm
content: The cheapest should be allpcb with their $1 promo for the first order.

author: retiredfeline
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 02:01:05 pm
content: Elecrow also does $1 batches for all customers but shipping kills it.It's impossible to generalise and say one is always the cheapest, it depends on the count, size, layers, material, options, assembly or not, shipping method, intro offers, and so forth. Pcbshopper can give a starting point but one has to put the info into their web forms to get a quote. But there are a few already mentioned that tend to be cheap for hobbyists.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 02:21:44 pm
content: ^allpcb should be $13 total with promo and the cheapest shipping to US, and $42 total without promo and the cheapest substrate selected.

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 11:06:57 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 10, 2024, 01:47:57 pmhttps://www.nextpcb.com/free-pcb-prototype

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 11:17:47 pm
content: Quote from: retiredfeline on July 10, 2024, 02:01:05 pmI've got global direct shipping from elecrow for super cheap before.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 11:19:35 pm
content: Quote from: johnboxall on July 10, 2024, 11:06:57 pm^$18.50 with PCB and shipping promotions.

author: retiredfeline
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 11:56:26 pm
content: It's very hard to beat jlcpcb's $1.5 shipping. Even if I order 10 for $1 from Elecrow, the shipping comes to about $9 so per board it costs more.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 02:02:48 am
content: Sadly I've been having issues with them stating my "drill" file is missing.Not sure what I'm doing wrong because I'm going through all the same steps as before. The ask for an XLN extension, and added it within the gerber, but also there is a N/C Drill option which I also generated and provided.

author: retiredfeline
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 02:14:18 am
content: Perhaps you should start a new thread under the appropriate ECAD subforum, e.g. Eagle, Altium, KiCad etc, explaining what you've done to generate the manufacturing files.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 02:23:04 am
content: Unfortunately I doubt anyone knows this software and/or can assist. I'm using PCAD 2006 and the components are designed around layers designed from my old company.They upgraded the software and gave me this entire registered package many years ago.

author: retiredfeline
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 02:30:45 am
content: You might be surprised, there are a lot of old-timers here. I don't know that software, but my guess is that there is a step to generate drill files you missed.I think XLN means Excellon format drill files. It's quite common.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 03:51:22 am
content: Don't know PCAD 2006, but KiCad requires me to click "Generate Drill File" in addition to "Plot" when creating the gerber files. Otherwise no drill files are generated.Example of KiCad's drill file parameters. Maybe you can adjust your PCAD 2006 parameters to use a similar format:

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 05:07:04 am
content: Quote from: Kim Christensen on July 11, 2024, 03:51:22 amProbably not going to help the OP, but I use the KiCad external plugin "Fabrication Toolkit" to create all the files needed for JLCPCB fabrication and assembly. Of course you need your components (Symbol Editor) to include the JLCPCB or LCSC catalog numbers, which I have added to my library. You still want to check everything, but that toolkit is pretty handy.

author: Rafiki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 09:58:18 am
content: QuoteI'm here f.i. ;-)File - Export - N/C drill - N/C Drill format - I use Millimeters, ASCII None, Format 4:2, Zero Suppression Leading - IIRC. ASCII NONE was the culprit once as otherwise I couldn't made any sense of the output file in a text editor (seems JLCPCB had the same problem). Check the output file in a text editor. With a bit searching the net it's really easy to understand this file.Btw. in Tools I usually Auto assign the holes and being there I usually clean up my parts to use only a limited number of drill sizes.For your reference I attach the .xln (renamed) from my latest very simple board.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2024, 02:32:46 am
content: QuoteI shouldn't have made this statement. First off, EEVblog has been amazing with helping with answering questions. Secondly, this site is comprised of people who have decades of experience.Minutes after I sent that message, someone sent a private message who knows PCAD and helped me.The libraries I have for PCAD have unique layers, so my mindset was that I can't be helped due to (technically) being unable to share any of the libraries since they were at one time designed for my old job (even though they are just basic components).So I felt that if I can't share the libraries, I certainly can't ask for anyone to guess at trying to solve issues.Having said all this, it appears I finally got a successful acceptance of my design and it's being fabricated.I asked these questions to the person who sent a private message, but I'll ask here too for others to benefit (I'm still waiting for a reply from the person, but know I'll get a response).Attached is the options for N/C Drill. My design was done in mm. If I select 'inches' (which seems to have been the selection accepted by JLCPCB), will that cause conflicting information between gerbers and drills?Also, the rest of the options I don't know what they mean. In the past I may have left them as is and never had an issue, but now I did and don't know what these mean. So if I have issues in the future, I won't know why they need to be changed.Last question is: if these settings were wrong, why was it reported that I was "missing" drill files? Did their software just overlook the file because it wasn't formatted properly?

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 03:02:12 pm
content: I'm curious, how does JLCPCB ship so fast?Due to them needing a phone number that delayed delivery, they shipped my boards early this week, maybe Monday, and the tracking code states I'll have the package by Friday (from Hong Kong to Boston).Aliexpress orders take a few weeks to go arrive due to customs and stuff.

author: rich t
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 03:14:53 pm
content: Are you doing PCBA (with turnkey assembly) or just blank PCBs?if you are doing PCBA, I have some notes:https://rtestardi.github.io/usbte/pcbafd.pdfPcbway does not require an account for a quote, but you want to go to a slightly different page than default to just upload gerbers and have it figure out everything for you:https://www.pcbway.com/QuickOrderOnline.aspxThey were the best at hand-holding for PCBA, but a bit more expensive (I used 4 different companies).By far the cheapest (and the only one that will do fulfillment after PCBA) was:https://www.elecrow.com/

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 03:24:58 pm
content: Blank PCBs.Thanks for the information.So far I've been impressed with JLCPCB. The N/C Drill stuff was a bit annoying and doubt I would have resolved the issue if not for the help of feedback from this thread (and the person who sent a private message).I don't remember having such issues in the past, but maybe companies (or the company I dealt with back then) was more lenient on the N/C Drill stuff.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 03:30:29 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on July 17, 2024, 03:02:12 pmAll I can say is that they really can ship fast. I generally use their "DHL Express Worldwide" option, which isn't the cheapest. For example, I just ordered 25 ea assembled boards plus another 25 bare boards of a different design. The assembly included a hand-soldered SMA connector, and a small number of surface-mount components on a very small 2-layer PCB, all components in JLCPCB stock.Design files submitted July 12. Delivered to San Francisco July 16. That'sfour days!This is probably the fastest turn-around I've seen from them -- usually it's about ten days or so -- but it's really pretty amazing. The shipping cost $23, the boards + assembly cost $57, so the shipping is a significant fraction. I truly wish I could get the same price and service locally, or at least not 10x or 20x the price. But I can't.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 03:35:46 pm
content: Wow, that's an amazing turn around time and shipping.The nice thing about fast shipping is that if the design is wrong, needs to be tweaked, a new revision, etc... you're not waiting a month or two for another revision board.One or two issues with gerbers were absolutely my fault. I forgot to add the internal layers to the gerbers and noticed they saw two-layers, yet, my design was four-layers. That was an easy fix, but the N/C Drill stuff I would have never resolved; and not sure I could in the future.

author: Rafiki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2024, 08:19:28 am
content: QuoteWhy do you think so? Sending a new file and waiting for another complaint works. So trial and error with a few trials worked for me. And heh, there are not so many options for generating the N/C file. I bit searching the net worked for me too with my first order. Additionally they have a direct chat (not a stupid bot TTBOMK!) and they email you back. So nicely asking and a bit thinking about the problem ever worked for me so I'm sure it would for you too.Btw I think it would be polite to post the solution to your problem here in the forum. Curious what you changed to make it work.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2024, 01:47:37 pm
content: They kept informing me that I didn't "include" the N/C Drill file, so I was focusing on the file not being present; not the settings. Most likely I would have kept sending the N/C Drill file as a separate ZIP, combine with the gerbers, etc... and continued such combinations.For the N/C Drill settings, I changed the units to 'inches', 2:4 Format, ASCII None Type, and None Zero Suppression.My design was done in mm, so originally I left the gerbers and N/C Drill in mm. As for all those settings, I'm uncertain what they all mean or how they affect the N/C Drill file, but once changed to these, they were able to locate the N/C Drill file.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2024, 01:51:02 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on July 17, 2024, 03:02:12 pmDepending on country, sometimes Aliexpress combine orders into a single shipment that then gets split up and redistributed in the destination country.Also, you useally pay rather more for shipping with JLC than Ali

author: newto
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2024, 04:49:23 pm
content: I think the easiest solution is to switch to Kicad for future projects.We switched from an ancient PADS VX license to kicad and it's way easier to design and less finicky. And less issues with fab shops since it uses more modern gerbersAnd by "we" I mean me, since I'm the only one developing anything here, so all the collaborative features are were useless.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2024, 05:09:19 pm
content: Quoteeven easier if using jlcpcb for your boards is easyeda,jlcpcb's own software.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2024, 05:10:02 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on July 18, 2024, 01:47:37 pmJLCPCB does haveinstructions on how to generate drill files and gerbers for different software.While they don't list your software, you could deduce what's need from this info.When you had these issues, did you try their online Gerber viewer with the faulty zip file?Some more info aboutcommon drill file errors at JLCPCB

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 02:16:29 am
content: QuoteYes, but I didn't see any issue nor did I really know what to look for.The previous advice on scrapping PCAD and going with something like KiCAD is certainly good advice. My game plan was to familiarize myself with Altium since that's used more in industry and learning it would be beneficial. Unfortunately I found myself taking too long to figure out Altium and I wanted to get my board laid out (especially since it's just jumper wires and two IC sockets).Being honest... it took me so long to familiarize myself with PCAD 2006 and painstakingly creating tutorials for future reference that I'm having a hard time jumping ship. As I've mentioned, Altium would (in my opinion) more beneficial to learn since it's used widely in industry, but KiCAD is popular among hobbyists; both offer lots of support. Also, seldom do I create PCBs, so each time I get involved in creating one (last one was nine-years-ago) I go with what I know to save time.Also, everyone is correct that using current software would offer current gerber versions. I actually expected issues with the gerber files and/or companies to accept some new format that PCAD wouldn't have; or be outdated.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 10:33:41 am
content: Just noticed the mention of PCAD2006 - I use this and have no issues exporting files using the default settings.(If you are inheriting existing files, the defaults may have been changed).These settings are inches,ASCII None, leading 2:4Inch/mm shouldn't matter as the units are embedded in the drill file.If you have more than 2 layers, you need to ensure all layers are selected in the drill output file setup

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 01:13:36 pm
content: QuoteHmmmm I'll need to check this. With the inner two layers, I just copied the existing setup for top and bottom when generating the gerbers.Actually, I did include all the layers because the 'signal' layers were all listed, and then I just did auto for whatever other stuff I needed.The main focus I had was trying to figure out why the report kept stating my drill file wasn't present. if the report stated the drill file didn't meet their specifications, then I would have been focused on setting.For what it's worth, using PCB layout software that doesn't have 3D does have limitations. In the case of my current board, it needs to fit nicely onto the back of an existing board to repair a piece of equipment, so being able to export a STEP file and print it would have been nice.The PCBs are scheduled to arrive today, so I'll have a better idea if I made any drill file errors. I'm assuming the obvious would be the holes wouldn't go all the way through.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 06:34:28 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on July 19, 2024, 01:13:36 pmBlind or buried vias would have drill holes that don't go all the way through the PCB. So not necessarily an error, but usually the PCB will cost more.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 07:27:16 am
content: Quote from: Kim Christensen on July 19, 2024, 06:34:28 pmYa, but if you didn't have the inner layers set in your via definition it would just be holes on outer layers that don't go anywhere. That should fail DRC at the fab.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2024, 01:51:18 pm
content: The PCBs arrived Friday and look perfect.Whether I made any electrically incorrect connections and/or make an error with the many jumper wires I'll need to connect is another story.I'm curious, are blind/buried vias set within the drill file? Most likely any boards I layout will never need them, but, since we are on the topic of drill files, thought I'd ask.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2024, 01:57:37 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on July 21, 2024, 01:51:18 pmYou need to generate a seperate drill file for each blind/buried hole set. e.g. one for layer 1-layer 2, one for l3-l4 and one for L1,2,3,4. You also need to set up the via style definitions to select which layers are connected to the via.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2024, 02:33:09 pm
content: Ah okay, makes sense. I actually found the menu (see attached) that would allow setting the via definitions.Had I not asked, I would have assumed I needed to tweak the drill file only to set drilling depth limits or something like that.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2024, 07:32:21 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on July 21, 2024, 02:33:09 pmYou only need to get into that for blind/buried vias - default is to connect to all layers so correct for normal 4/6 layer, but you do need to actively add any new signal/plane layers in the drill data export

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2024, 06:34:47 pm
content: This is another reason why I switched to KiCAD. With the Fab Toolkit, it is way easy to use JLCPCB. I used to use Eagle. Switch about 4 years ago and haven't looked back even once.Quote from: fourfathom on July 11, 2024, 05:07:04 am

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 09:37:17 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on July 18, 2024, 05:09:19 pmI consider using a vendor specific PCB design program a disadvantage. You never know when they would go broke, change their policy or do other things to attempt to take their user (data) hostage. And this is happening ever more often these days with many software programs going "cloud only". I'm a happy KiCad user myself, and one of the reasons I'm happy with KiCad, is because I am sure that there simply is no possibility of such things with KiCad. I am very certain that the time and effort I have invested in KiCad is going to serve me for many years to come.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 09:45:47 am
content: Quote from: wraper on July 10, 2024, 11:19:35 pmI find such things quite annoying. When I'm looking for a PCB manufacturer, I want to see what their normal prices are for repeated orders. I really don't care at all if they want to give me a PCB for free, even if it's true and there are no hidden (shipping or other) costs. And instead they are bombarding me with all kinds of useless advertisement shit, and with that they are wasting my time. I usually just close such websites and find another one.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 02:59:14 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on September 01, 2024, 09:45:47 amI find the typical JLCPCB promotion discount welcome, but not a significant factor. With or without the discount it's still a bargain so I don't get bothered by it.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 10:16:55 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on September 01, 2024, 02:59:14 pmWhen there is some promotion to have some product at a lower price it's OK, but when they start pushing their promotions in such a way that it becomes difficult or vague what the normal price is, then it starts getting annoying. Even without the discount it's already cheap enough indeed.