How many thermal camera experimenters have we on here ? Interested in parts ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 04:19:20 pm
content: Don't get too excited, this is an early days question.As some may know, I am a user and collector of thermal cameras of various ages and formats. This forum is becoming a great source of information and hopefully meeting place of like minds.Thermal imaging cameras have historically been shrouded in mystery when it came to in depth detail of their inner workings. ITAR regulations protected much useful technical information and this made/makes life hard for a thermal imaging repairer or experimenter, like myself.I have quite a collection of thermal imaging cameras, both working and projects awaiting my attention. There may also be a source of new thermal camera parts coming on line in the near future, but I can say no more about that at this time.So how many members of this forum are interested in experimenting with thermal camera technology, speak up and identify yourselvesI already know of a few like minded individuals.In the future, there may be some industrial grade thermal cameras and parts available to purchase. Some may be from me, and others from an alternate source known to me.By way of research and in light of recent budget thermal camera releases from the likes of FLIR, SEEK, OPGAL and other suppliers, who would be interested in buying the following items and what sort of budget constraints would you apply when considering purchase.......1. Complete working, high performance FLIR PM 5xx or 6xx series camera with 320 X 240 60fps temperature stabilised microbolometer. These were around $56K new and sell on eBay for anything between $1K and $3K.2. Ex fire brigade cameras such as the Argus 1 (Pyrovidicon), Argus 2 (Solid state BST 320 X 240 30fps) or ISG Talisman Wasp (Solid state BST 320 X 240 30fps) various physical and operational conditions.3. Automotive thermal night vision made by Raytheon for Cadillac. These are fully automatic thermal cameras with composite video output. (320 X 240 30fps or maybe 60fps I forget)4. Solid State BST modules with 320 X 240 pixels and 30fps (maybe 60fps) and composite output. Limited connection information to get them running. No lens.5. Professional Germanium lenses for use with modules such as above, or other Long Wave thermal cores. Normal fields of view as opposed to telephoto or wide angle6 'Project' firefighting camera boards such as the BST imaging modules, control, video overlay modules, small CRT displays, no chassis or cases.7. Maybe chassis from firefighting cameras with or without the protective shells and needing assembly from parts. A sort of thermal camera DIY kit.8. Military long range thermal camera with modification details to get it displaying its image via composite video. Easy project.9. Superb condition Bosch 'Metal Mickey' dual tech PTZ camera as deployed to Iraq in the Gulf War. This unit looks unissued. Unit contains X36 optical zoom visible light camera and high performance non zoom 320x240 pixel thermal camera. Weatherproof, with sun shades and wiper assembly fitted.10. Similar to above but made by Ganz. Again, superb condition.At this time I am just trying to establish how much interest there may be in this type of kit. It is not your average FLIR consumer type equipment. Most are 320 X 240 pixels microbolometer with frame rates of either 30 or 60fps. as such they are regulated by ITAR as suitable for military use.I may decide to reduce my collection of 45 thermal cameras and there is the chance of providing project cameras and parts to those who wish to experiment with the technology rather than buying a 'turn key' camera.Let me know what you think folks but please do not ask me for specific model numbers etc at this time as this is just an early days post seeking to establish what, if any interest there is in such technology on this forum.eBay is the alternative but as many know, prices can go orbital on eBay for such technology. This MAY end up as a chance in a lifetime to buy high spec thermal camera.kit at a price your budget permits. Do not expect a FLIR PM 695 for £100 though ....... It isn't going to happen.Looking forward to hearing from all you thermal camera fans out there.Fraser

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 04:46:42 pm
content: QuoteI posted to follow this thread as I'm a thermal camera wantabe but only if there is a DIY path for under $100 as I have no justification and many other project ideas.

author: encryptededdy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 12:18:20 am
content: I may like some wide aperture lenses to jerry rig onto my Therm-App, however I realise that due to it's small-ish (relative to older cameras) 384x288 17um sensor size, those "Normal FOV" lenses you have probably become telephotos on the Therm-App, which isn't optimal.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 12:56:08 am
content: Quote from: retrolefty on January 30, 2016, 04:46:42 pmMuch the same here - but I wonder about export to Australia...

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 02:49:38 am
content: Interested. But export. Sigh.Didn't I see a thread here a while ago (year or more ago?) about some European firm with their own tech? Thus able to deliver a decent frame rate outside the US? I remember a youtube vid.

author: cynfab
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 03:45:29 am
content: Fraser,You know I'm interested in mucking around with any or all of that list

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 07:14:09 am
content: I'm also interested but my max budget is about 200€...Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 12:00:39 pm
content: Interested. Generally in small parts / cheap experiments but occasionally tempted by something special.

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 01:38:37 pm
content: 4 - Posted by: apelly« on: Today at 01:49:38 PM »>>Interested. But export. Sigh.<<As Fraser is in the UK, then I would expect UK/EU rules will apply, not US ones. While the UK rules should be fine with exporting to NZ, it could be a heap of (virtual) paperwork for an individual to export these kind of items to NZ.regardsBill

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 04:45:19 pm
content: @encryptededdy,You raise an interesting point that may actually be an advantage to some users.If we talke a hypothetical case and sat a lens has 24 degrees FOV when illuminating a 20mm microbolometer. When used on a 10mm microbolometer, it becomes a 12 degree FOV lens or near enough anyway. So you effectively get a cheap X2 telephoto lensif you add a ZnSe close up lens you have a thermal x2 microscopeof course, the greater the difference between the original microbolometer dimensions and the new smaller type, the greater the magnification produced. Imagine using the above lens on a LEPTON sized microbolometer ! A X4 microscope could be a possibility. I will need to find out the original microbolometer dimensions as the reference point. Large lenses also provide good sensitivity. From memory the lens assemblies have a 25mm diameter. Compare that to the SEEK or FLIR E4 lensesReal germanium instead of GASIR too.The wildlife observers might also appreciate a larger, higher quality lens assembly with magnification over the standard lens. It would just need a lens mount adapter. I have to odd a flipping tear X2 telescope to my PM6xx series to get a 12 Degree FOV for wildlife work. I would love even greater magnification but have yet to get that sorted. Calibration error matters not a lot when a thermal camera is used to observe wildlife. Of course, adding a different lens can/will effect the calibration slightly but simple tests will provide the offset that needs to be applied to readings.You've got me thinking now. I want to upgrade my second E4 camera with a bigger lens....... I may go for image madnification as well so I will have a thermal microscope on hand.Thanks for raising this 'issue' of different sensor sizes. Just like CCTV of courts where it is perfectly acceptable to use a lens designed for a 1/2" CCD on a 1/3" CCD camera. You just get a smaller FOV. Of course, the inverse causes vignetting.Fraser

author: Chanc3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 06:11:47 pm
content: As I work for a fairly large thermography company in the UK and have a great deal of interest in the subject, I am always game for any testing/modifications.I myself have successfully repaired our PM695 (with the aid of Fraser of course) and I may have to attempt another repair again, due to a different fault. I've also created a very basic program for this camera that enables me to control the camera remotely (with the aid of a custom cable and camera commands). I've also replaced the entire body of the P6xx series camera.I've also got some good links within the industry, so I will help where possible.I haven't forgotten about those batteries yet, Fraser! Just need clearance to let them go.Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2016, 11:09:32 pm
content: I have long been interested in the Cadillac/mercedes night vision systems for my car. I drive through lots of deer-infested areas - have had some close shaves, though luckily all under 30mph. They usually are coming up the side and crossing the road. But the issue with those seems to be the lens, not the thermal core.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2016, 11:35:35 pm
content: @Marshallh,The Mercedes is active Infra red illumination with an IR sensitive conventional camera. As such it is not that effective in fog, snow or dust storm conditions.The Cadillac Deville was fitted with two versions of Raytheon thermal camera. They are designated as Type 1 and Type 2.Both types use a lens protector to prevent damage from stones. The lens is safely located behind the protection window but can suffer corrosion if the protector is ruptured and not replaced in a reasonable period of time.The type 1 has a design issue that sadly means that if the protector is ruptured, water can not only get on the lens sitting behind but also the sensitive electronics and BST sensor. Very bad news in most cases.The type 2 camera uses a fully sealed optical block and the electronics do not suffer water ingress even if the lens protector is absent.I would avoid a type 1 camera that has a cracked or shattered lens protector. It is almost certainly corroded inside. The Type 2 with a cracked or shattered lens protector is still a decent risk as the lens is pretty robust. A new lens protector can be hard to find though. It is a thin piece of Germanium and no longer available as a spare part from Cadillac. It also cost $400 as a spare which is in itself prohibitive to buy from a dealer.The type 1 camera may be identified by its oval lens housing and it does not have a user replaceable lens protector, unlike the type 2.The BST Raytheon sensor is decent quality but the chopper wheel membrane can deteriorate due to age. It can be repaired though.If I could afford one, I would buy a FLIR Pathfinder or Tau for automotive applications as they are lovely cameras.In theory a FLIR F1G2 could be modified to act as an automotive thermal camera. It would need to be modified to external power and a mobile phone used for the display, connected using a long USB extension cable. I would modify the F1G2 to take its power from the USB cable. To make the camera weatherproof it would need to sit in an enclosure with a thermal camera window in the front.Fraser

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 01:10:35 am
content: Thanks for the info Fraser. I looked a bit more and surprisingly late model BMWs have a similar system - except it is more compact and readily available for slightly less than the old Caddy units. Appears to only use a 4 pin connector, so possibly analog video. Have you had any expeirence with these? BMW being what they are they could be locked out and only power on with a cryptographic signature. But what appears to be 320x240, 30hz video with a bit better tone mapping than the older ones is pretty tempting.I have thought some about something like a Thermapp 30hz, but I'm not sure about their longevity and operation under extreme conditions (it gets -10F here in the winter to 110F in the summer). 9hz is barely usable at highway speeds unfortunately

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 04:05:10 am
content: A bit of looking around suggest they are using the Flir PathFindIR.Sensor Type320 x 240 Uncooled MicrobolometerField-of-View24° (h) x 18° (v)Spectral Band8-14 microns (LWIR)Sealed DesignIP69 rated, hermetically sealed providing extra insurance in all weather conditionsOutputsNTSC

author: encryptededdy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 05:56:51 am
content: Quote from: marshallh on February 06, 2016, 01:10:35 amMinor correction but the Therm-App HZ is actually only 25Hz, not 30.

author: encryptededdy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 06:11:55 am
content: Quote from: marshallh on February 05, 2016, 11:09:32 pmHave you considered the FLIR Vue line of cameras (meant for Drones)?You can get them with 336x256 resolution and a variety of lenses for $1699 USD. They also do 60Hz(!). Analog output only though (but I guess that's what most car monitors accept), but you can customize pallets, regions of interest (for AGC) and digital detail enhancement all over the USB port.The 640x480 version is also available for $3199, which is perhaps as cheap as you'll get in a 640x480 thermal camera.Operating temp range is -20°C to +50°C (nonoperating -55°C to +95°C) so should work fine. It's based on the Tau2 core that Fraser mentioned, but at a much cheaper price (but you lose the 14bit digital output and temp calibration, but I don't think you'll need those features).

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 12:42:57 pm
content: @marshallhSadly the latest BMW and Audi Autoliv cameras were very careful designed by FLIR to meet ITAR regulations for international shipping without lots of paperwork. It is the most locked down thermal camera that I have seen.I am limited in what I can say about the protection but it is well known that the camera is married to its original control unit, which in turn is married to the original cars central CAN controller. Any error in the camera or controllers security handshaking can cause a security lock out in the camera hardware. It is not a simple lock-out and was intended to render the microbolometer and ROUC permanently inoperative. Some have asked whether the firmware can be hacked. Doing so is likely to cause the above lock-down condition.Mike did a video on these cameras that may be found on this forum and his You tube channel.The earlier BMW Autoliv cameras were standard FLIR PathfindIR units with composite video output. These are very rare to find and cost a lot of money though. All the ones you see on eBay these days are the newer protected version with digital I/O. Useful only for their lenses or as a paperweight.The one exception to this rule is someone wanting to attach a BMW camera to another BMW of the same model. There are adaption boxes that fool the security ID checks to accept the cars CAN controller ID in spite of it being the wrong VIN.Fraser

author: firehopper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 03:16:14 pm
content: I am interested, and as a newbie to thermal cameras, dont have lots of money for one, was looking at a flir one for android, thats my max budget basically

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 09:05:09 pm
content: The relevant export control exemption for cameras in vehicles is as follows (from public source):The camera is specially designed for installation into a civilian passenger land vehicle and having all of the following:1. The placement and configuration of the camera within the vehicle are solely to assist the driver in the safe operation of the vehicle;2. Is only operable when installed in any of the following:a. The civilian passenger land vehicle for which it was intended and the vehicle weighs less than 4,500 kg (gross vehicle weight);orb. A specially designed, authorized maintenance test facility;and3. Incorporates an active mechanism that forces the camera not to function when it is removed from the vehicle for which it wasintended.I would expect some form of proof would be provided to the authorities to meet test 3. It suggests that the 'any BMW will do' situation is sailing close to the wind, it should be linked to VIN and/or other system level serial numbers.Bill

author: tsaG
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 06:58:05 pm
content: Hi,I just found this part of the forum and I thought that maybe it would be interisting to hear about a project Im on.Im on a student project called REXUS/BEXUS ( Rocket Experiments for University Students, and Balloons). Our Group is called UB-FIRE (University of Bremen Fire Research Expirement).We're on board of mentioned rocket and do some research on flame propogation.We're using a TAU 2 640 Core with the thermal capture Module to monitor the flame propogation of 5 PMMA (Plexiglas) samples in combustion chambers. This will happen at about 100km height with forced convection.The camera is mounted to a stepper motor mounted within a small rocket module.You can find a VR rendering of our assembly here:http://ub-fire.de/VR/VR.htmlWe do have a website but I didnt have the time to keep it up to date:http://ub-fire.de/Or you can check out our Facebook page:https://www.facebook.com/ubfire.rexus1920/If you are interested I can give you some more information about this projectI attached a picture of our module without the finalized wiring, a (actual ;-)) screenshot and the camera.-Patrick

author: madmaxbryan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 09:17:00 am
content: I have a weird fascination with seeing what cant be seen, and thermal cameras fit that obsession. I have 2 projects i have been playing with but due to ITAR i haven't been able share any info on this site and the projects have kinda been pushed aside. One project involves a 640X480 17um microbolometer, but until i learn to program FPGA's to generate the clock signal i cant do much with it either. I also have a few lenses for a long range thermal camera that i want to explore.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 09:52:07 am
content: Quote from: Fraser on January 30, 2016, 04:19:20 pmYes, send me some, i want to launch automatic missiles to Turkish/Russian/Israeli/USA/German/Chinese planes above me (country depends on my radicalisation-of-the-day)Or connect it to pan/tilt/fire my full-automatic machine gun above my front door.:-)

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 01:25:35 pm
content: Some interesting replies in this thread.It is apparent that experimentation with thermal imaging cores and cameras is still in its embryonic stages for members of the EE and hobbyist community.This is no great surprise to me as such technology has historically been hard to source at wallet friendly prices and within ITAR regulations that restrict shipping. Times are changing though and affordable <9fps thermal cameras are now available. Such are very different to even the 1990's pro user thermal cameras though. Pro cameras have superb optics, sensors and build quality.For anyone wanting to get their teeth into decent thermal imaging cameras on a budget, there is much to be said for buying industrial or ex fire brigade technology on the secondary market. Sadly for the hobbyist, even ex fire brigade cameras are still not exactly cheap in pocket money terms. It is still quite an expensive specialism to get into when compared to conventional CCTV cameras or Digital Photography. Sadly that is just the nature of the beast, its lower volumes of production and associated rarity.I will keep this thread updated on the availability of thermal cameras and parts as and when able. The modules and boards for thermal cameras are still being assessed and sorted by another party so I can make no promises on when they will be made available or pricing.With regard to selling cameras from my own extensive collection, I may be willing to sell some that I several examples of but sadly most are not exactly Hobbyist budget friendly. I do have some Talisman Wasp project cameras that may become available to buy but they are presently in need of attention and I have yet to decide whether to sell them 'as-is' or repair them first. They are obviously worth more when working perfectly. It's all about spare time for me at the moment.This thread was started with the intention of establishing who on this forum shares my interest in thermal camera technology, both in terms of wanting parts and complete 'turn key' solutions. I will keep monitoring responses but it is apparent that numbers of such persons on this forum are indeed limited.I am always happy to discuss thermal imaging with those with an interest in such. My main uses are PCB inspection and wildlife monitoring (not hunting).Also happy to discuss faults on FLIR industrial thermal cameras as that is where most of my repair experience exists.With regard to me carrying out repairs on thermal cameras........This is an area into which I have not previously entered. I have always repaired thermal cameras as part of my self education on the technology used and for personal enjoyment. I have the required knowledge and skills but have not used them for commercial gain to date.Having watched many of the videos produced by Louis Rossmann on You Tube, I am considering whether I want to get into the commercial thermal camera repair arena. It would be a very foreign environment for an Ex Civil Servant so, for now, I am sticking to repairing thermal cameras for myself and maybe the odd forum member who asks for my help. My time is precious to me so I do need to be careful how I spend itFraser

author: firehopper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 03:58:04 pm
content: I found a flir one for android on ebay, currently waiting for them to ship, its been 7 days since I bought it, if they dont ship in the next 3 or 4 days I will go and file a claim, its not super expensive but at $189 + 10 shipping its far too much to write off.never mind, after waiting for nearly 8 days for it to ship, (claiming paypal hasnt released the funds yet) they gave me a refund. so now no camera. I'll still get a flir one if I can, but have to wait for more money first. so yeah no flir joy for me.

author: lefedor
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 09:38:58 pm
content: Hi, want just mention on Your post I've made test assembly with such set (BMW cam+ecu), was able to start camera.Have sniffed CAN bus messages and there nothing very secretive - just ignition and front light enabling messages, now waiting second set to check arduino version and also check if video output of one camera will processed by another camera ecu (so not encrypted and may be able to run without ECU).Was aiming to reverse engeneering sensor communication to achieve cheap thermal imager, but i'm partly giving up seeng even cheaper seek thermal pro alternatives - its mostly worth just for fun now (partly) and, may be in theoretical option to overclock sensor to 60Hz declared in specs.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 10:43:13 pm
content: Very interesting.I look forward to hearing how you get on with this.Fraser

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 11:03:41 pm
content: I have interest in this technology, but have many competing interests and so don't know how much money or time I would dedicate to it. I have come close to pulling the trigger on some ex-firefighter equipment on a couple of occasions, but just haven't quite reached the threshold. Same thing for the Agilent/Keysight stuff on Ebay.Part of that may come from professional experience, which completely sated the gee-whiz, that looks neat in infrared aspect. Now it is more of a desire to have a useful, but relatively expensive tool in the tool box. So far my use cases have not demanded that I spend the money, but in all likelihood the opportunity and the inclination will come together someday. Seek and its brethren seem just a bit too limited for my purposes.The motivation to use as a tool affects the decision about whether to buy for repair or not. Learning and fixing things is always fascinating, but if the path doesn't lead to a viable tool in the end it doesn't meet the eventual need and subtracts dollars from that application.Long ramble, but may give you some insight into one corner of the interest.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2017, 02:16:52 am
content: Quote from: lefedor on August 28, 2017, 09:38:58 pmLeave it to the Russian hackers to figure it out

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2017, 07:36:32 am
content: I'd like it to be put on record that I'm interested in tinkering with IR cameras, although I can't hold a candle to Fraser. I have a weakness for buying them. I'm hoping to get hold of a decent resolution MWIR camera sometime, but have more than enough LWIR cameras for the time being.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2017, 01:47:23 pm
content: I bought a couple of ex fire fighter SCOTT Eagle X compact thermal cameras last week. They caught my eye as I was interested in the core that resides within them. Another voyage of exploration for me to undertake and enjoy. They cost me £117 each plus postage etc.Thanks to Mike I also have one of the FLIR Autoliv car cameras and it's ECU in my collection. There was little chance of ever getting it working according to those I spoke to at FLIR, but maybe that will change some day. The Autoliv camera system is supposed to be robustly protected. Whether that is actually true Has yet to be proven.Fraser

author: Bruno28
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 02:27:24 am
content: Im interested. Im still a novice here in thermal cameras. But like them enough that I already have 3 in my collection and waiting for a seek compact XR I got on eBay for quite cheap.

author: agate
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 07:14:56 pm
content: Hello,I did design control around this type of bolometers. I can share some design info if you still interested.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 09:12:00 pm
content: Yes please.PM sentFraser

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 10:02:53 pm
content: Fraser, I am not doing any offer on your possible future sales, as my budget would be insulting to you and you certainly will be able to sell your items at a good price.But still, posting this to add my interest in these devices.Regards,Vitor

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 10:37:10 pm
content: Vitor,This is now a pretty old thread. I was originally wanting to see how much interest there was in thermal cameras and cores as I, and others that I know had quite a lot of stock of such. I was 'testing the water' to see if a reasonable market existed within the forum membership.Sadly thermal imaging cameras are quite a niche topic and it appeared that there was little appetite for DIY thermal cameras using cores and parts of other cameras. People seemed to want 'turn key' solutions. That is fine though.I have an awful lot of thermal imaging equipment and may well list some of it on the forum, but, to be honest, there has not been a lot of interest shown in buying the expensive models that I mainly own. People are buying the FLIR ONE G2, SEEK, Therm App and Thermal Expert cameras rather than professional grade cameras from circa 2000 to 2010.There is also the issue of ITAR. Many of my cameras contain ITAR controlled Raytheon Cores so I cannot ship them overseas. I am resigned to likely not recovering much of my investment in my thermal camera collection, should I decide to sell it.Thanks for indicating your interest though. I will keep you in mind if I want to re-home a decent camera at a nice wallet friendly price for you.Fraser

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 10:48:00 pm
content: Thanks!ROI is always critical when collecting industrial/professional equipment as a hobby.We know how much it is worth, we know how much they retail and how much companies spend on it.However, reselling the hobby collection for a reasonable price is difficult as companies don't purchase from hobby collectors and amateurs don't value the equipment.This is why I never tried to sell any of my field meter...Regards,Vitor

author: Philipp23
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 08:32:28 am
content: Hello. FraserJust stumbled over this thread and my question might be a bit of topic. I'm in the need for a thermal camera that will be mainly used for thermal observation of circuit boards. Do you know a good camera for this purpose that does not cost to much? Maybe there is something in your big stock. I'm not afraid of DIY as long as don't need to write any programs or code. I can get a Seek Compact Pro for very little money, but the reviews here on the eevblog are not very positive. Or do you think that the Seek is a good starting point given the fact that I can get it for under one third of the retail price.Kind RegardsPhil

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 10:08:20 am
content: A SEEK thermal Pro for less than 1/3 of retail is a good deal.The SEEK does have issues with quite high noise levels in the images but at that price and for PCB use it is adequate.The venerable E4 is excellent when upgraded to 320x240 pixel resolution but the 2017 model is resisting efforts to upgrade it. Used ones that are pre 2017 may still be upgraded.The Keysight factory shop on eBay was selling very nice U5855A cameras for $620 and they are worth considering if they are still available.I cannot recommend the new FLIR ONE Gen 3 series as the standard model is only 80x60 pixels and the FLIR One G3 Pro is overpriced !The Therm-App and Thermal Expert offerings are worth considering but a bit more expensive. That said, they produce very nice images.As an entry into PCB thermal imaging where there is usually decent dealt T present, the SEEK Pro could be a good choice.Fraser

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 10:17:49 am
content: Perhaps Flir One Gen2 (previous version) from Ebay would be ok and cheap too... 160x120 for about 150$ is pretty good.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 10:48:14 am
content: Frenky,Indeed. I am being a bit careful about recommending the Gen 2 camera though. The presence of large numbers of faulty cameras is worrying. Some just need the simple reset method I detailed, whilst others have physical faults that need repair.I do not have a clear picture of failure rates, but I have never before seen so many faulty thermal cameras, of one particular model, on eBay and at IT recyclers. They are uneconomic to repair commercially so end up as scrap on eBay etc. They are a good source of working Lepton 3 cores but I have yet to find a reasonably priced development board for the Lepton 3 that outputs composite video.The FLIR One Gen 2 appears to contain a defects that occur without provocation. FLIR have not commented on this or supplied revised firmware. I own many of them now. My original G2 purchases are fine but of the 5 that I bought as faulty only 3 could be revived by a hard reset. The battery connector is total rubbish and a liability. That may be the cause of the units crashing.Fraser

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 10:56:50 am
content: Hi FraserI've seen your original port is rather old, but the thread popped up again.So I own a simple Seek Reveal (not pro) and yes, it's a nice toy but when things get serious, you reveal its limits quite fast.So I'm interested in buying a used professional thermal camera somewhen, like the fully working FLIR PM 5xx or 6xx series you mentioned. The bugdet I'm willing to spend is limited to the lower end of ebay prices you mentioned (rather $1000 than $3000), or even less if the unit is in a bad state, but still usable or repairable without special thermal camera knowledge. At the moment it isn't important enough to me to watch ebay listings or something alike, but If I had the opportunity to buy one, I might go for it.I'm not interested in parts to build a camara, or modifying the "optical" (thermal) part. The unit I'm thinking of should be useable standalone and I'd go for 320x240 resolution, and should provide essential features the Seek Reveal doesn't (like settable upper and lower temperature for the display palette, not limited to auto scaling, a suitable manual focus range for PCB closeups)

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 10:57:41 am
content: @Fraser:I see your point. On ebay there really is a lot of defective FlirOne Gen2 modules...Ok I take back my recommendation of the old FlirOne.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 11:17:07 am
content: Capt Bullshot,Whilst I have the advanced cameras that you mention, and might sell one within your budget, there is a significant problem.The FLIR PM series cameras are 320 x 240 pixels 60fps and contain Military grade Microbolometers. As such they are subject to ITAR, having been made in the USA with US technology. It is not permitted to send these cameras across national boarders without a licence. Such a licence is not simple to obtain. You would need to obtain such a camera within your own country.I bought a FLIR E40 recently and upgraded it to E60 spec. Great price and great performanceFraser

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 12:35:02 pm
content: Fraser,thanks for the info about these regulations, I'm not aware of such things, and I don't expect you to get such a licence just to sell a camera to me on a budget, neither I'll bother with that.So I'll continue looking out here in my country occasionally and continue reading your posts here for tips.

author: Chanc3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 02:08:13 pm
content: Fraser, as a retailer of fast frame cameras, there are permitted states you can sell to without a licence. You need a signed consignee statement from the buyer and you must vet them on their requirement for it.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 03:21:09 pm
content: Chanc3,Hmmmm I am very friendly with the US authorities involved in ITAR and it appeared that shipping an ITAR controlled technology thermal camera was fraught with issues. The PM series cameras contain a Raytheon large format 320 x 240 pixel fast microbolometer that is specifically identified under ITAR as a controlled component requiring a licence to ship across international borders. The status of that microbolometer may have changed over the years but at one time it was serious military technology that was heavily controlled. FLIR could only sell them to proven friendly and vetted organisations.1. I am not a commercial company approved to sell ITAR controlled equipment across boarders.2. I have no means to check the true identity of an overseas buyer or their nationality.3. I am held responsible if I ship to a person deemed inappropriate to hold the ITAR Controlled technology4. I have to advise the appropriate US trade department and FLIR of the sale and shipment details.For $1000, it is not worth the hassle in my case. The risks are all Owned by me. Get it wrong and I am the one up on charges for supplying the 'enemy' with ITAR controlled technology. No thank you.

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 03:57:35 pm
content: Perhaps local pickup in personal ?You both Fraser and Cpt. Bullshot are within EU.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 04:35:49 pm
content: The problem that Fraser has is not the shipping or delivery of the item, but being responsible for whoever ends up with the device at the end.Also, I believe that Fraser is located in the UK.Anyway, it is pretty interesting to read about real issues with reselling specialized test equipment.Common people never think about the fact that there are products being produced, that may NOT be exported to given countries, etc.I remember living in West-Germany and it was forbidden to sell/offer a Commodore Amiga 500 to East-Germans, because this computer contained a Motorola 68000 CPU, which was considered good enough for missile guiding systems!I imagine that thermal cameras can be used for missile targeting systems, too, hence why these products are controlled. Sounds stupid but imagine Fraser sells one of his military grade cameras to a unknown person without all the propper paperwork. That person now sells the camera on, without ANY reflection, as his name is not on the line, and in the end of the chain, the camera ends up in some obscure pro-war, pro-nuke country! Imagine the device is intercepted by the CIA and traced back to Fraser. I know - this is phantasy or is it?Same goes btw. for top range spectrum analyser and other test equipment.Also, SEM microscopes are controlled, as they allow reverse engineering of crypto protection.The list goes on. Fascinating stuff!Cheers,Vitor

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 06:01:42 pm
content: Thanks Victor,You are right. It is not that I want to be awkward, but selling ITAR controlled cameras and components can be quite scary. The US authorities seem quite happy to chase those who breach their laws and the UK will happily extradite wrong doers to the US for trial.Under President Trump I could get myself a life ban from visiting the USA as a minimumFraser

author: lukier
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 07:03:53 pm
content: Quote from: Bicurico on September 27, 2017, 04:35:49 pmThat is an interesting question. From various threads I vaguely remember that some of Fraser's cameras were eBay scores. Do random sellers and recyclers do the ITAR paperwork? I highly doubt it in most cases. I guess that the paper trail was broken long ago before Fraser bought the camera.For example this one, 640x480, surely must be a controlled item:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/182792165736

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 07:07:30 pm
content: How can by Fraser sure that if he sells some sensitive item to some British person that this person doesn't sell it further beyond controlled border ?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 08:09:30 pm
content: I am permitted to sell my camera to a UK national in the UK. I would transfer ownership to the buyer. This act removes me from the responsibility of not shipping the unit outside the UK without appropriate paperwork and authority. My ownership is legal. If a future owner decides to break the rules, it is they who will have to answer for their actions and not me. I am not selling weapons that require a licence to own so selling is not an issue provided I obey the rules.Buying on eBay is a very mixed bag. Many US based eBay sellers will not ship anything relating to thermal cameras outside the USA. That frustratingly includes lenses accessories etc. SPi make this very clear on their auction pages. EBay now warns bidders of the ITAR regulations on many thermal camera auctions. When you try to bid, you get a warning about controlled technology that you have to acknowledge.Some eBay sellers care not a jot about ITAR and others even try to claim that a Thermal Camera is not covered by ITAR by quoting the regulations for simple night vision sights ! Daft blightersIf someone decides to ship a high resolution, high frame rate thermal camera across borders, they are committing the breach of regulations and not the recipient. The sender take responsibility for what they ship.It is a fact that many ITAR and Dual Use Technology auctions take place on eBay and I have not seen any taken down due to complaints from the US BIS. Many of the sellers will ship overseas without any thought about regulations.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 11:51:31 pm
content: I think Fraser is taking a very rational approach. Even in cases where he is selling something totally legitimate the powers that be can be very persistent in forcing you to come up with appropriate documentation and also interpretation of things which may be perceived as grey areas. Given his background and expertise I am reasonably certain that he would be shown correct in the end, but he has better things to do with his time than discussing these issues with unfriendly people.

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2017, 05:38:08 am
content: These regulations are an interesting topic, never thought about what kind of legal issues this places on the seller. It's not in my intention to cause such potential trouble just to buy an interesting piece of technology. I won't ask anyone to break the these rules intentionally.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2017, 07:47:00 am
content: Kudos to Fraser for setting out so clearly the basic position on dual-use gear. I have occasionally been asked to sign paperwork relating to the import of thermal imaging kit. The most recent required me to specify the planned use and agree not to re-export the device. I'll have to check whether it also said I had to impose these same conditions on anyone I sold it to.I have travelled to some interesting places overseas carrying a thermal camera and accessoriesas a private individual. I've usually carried non-ITAR gearandthe paperwork to prove it, though I've never been asked to produce it. On at least one occasion I was frankly terrified at the international border that there would be some awkward questions to answer but we were just waved through along with all the other tourists. On another occasion when I was making touristy thermal images of a place I knew the authorities were twitchy about (but photography wasdefinitelypermitted) I could see out of the corner of my eyes that several armed, uniformed men were converging on me from different directions. I thought it politic to put the camera away sharpish (but nottooquickly) and get back on the tour bus as though I hadn't noticed anything. To the best of my knowledge these remain the only published thermal images of that place.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2017, 10:47:14 am
content: With regard to travelling with a ITAR/DUT controlled thermal cameras, I have not heard of anyone being given any Regulations related trouble at ports of exit and entry. I have heard of people having to explain to officers exactly what the unusual looking camera is, and what it us used for. Most port officers would not be that familiar with various thermal camera shapes etc. The pistol grip design of some modern thermal cameras can attract some attention, especially if used in public. We live in sad times where anything unusual or weapon-like in appearance can cause a stir with police and security officers.I spoke to a member of the NEC AVIO thermal camera UK team and one of their clients regularly travelled around the world with an ITAR controlled thermal camera. Apparently he never had any problems doing so but the NEC team did warn him that he was effectively breaching the regulations. I suppose as the camera remained in the guys possession and was not left in another country, it was not such an issue. Any likely the interested authorities are totally unaware of such movements of the technology in hand baggage.However...... it takes just one over-zealous official at a port of exit or entry, who knows about thermal cameras and the regulations, and life could get very complicated, very quickly !In all honesty, the ITAR and DUT regulations are there for a specific purpose..... to stop the provision of certain capable technologies to countries that are considered a significant military threat to the USA or Europe. North Korea comes to mind at the moment ! The regulations make it possible to intercept illegal shipments and to pursue any company breaching the regulations. I very much doubt the US authorities will get too concerned about the private sale of one controlled technology thermal camera that moves between USA friendly countries. I personally do not want to risk such though.Fraser