Hakko 936 ceramic heater A1321 vs fake comparison - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2013, 05:30:11 am
content: Sharing the comparison on genuine Hakko ceramic heater vs fake one when I built my second soldering iron Hakko model 907 for the 936 station. In my case, ideally should be two stations or single stations with two irons, but too bad its not an option now. So I thought why not just have two irons, switching them is not a big deal rather than have to wait the iron to cool down just to switch the soldering tip.Went to local electronic flea market and bought a knock off Hakko 907 iron for just 2 dollars, they're really dirt cheap. Also at the same time ordered from local Hakko authorised distributor the genuine ceramic heater element A1321 for about 17 dollars, almost 9 times the price compared to the whole fake 907 iron which is a complete unit with a tip.At the end with $2 dodgy iron + $17 genuine heater element = $19, excluding genuine tip of course, it performs like a new genuine 907 iron, and so far I'm happy with this investment.A quick glance of the 2 bucks fake 907 iron, just from the look, not bad isn't it.Thumbs images at the bottom + comment/description :01. Genuine Hakko 907 Iron vs Fake Tear Down.jpgThe darken tip enclosure and metal nipple show the genuine 907 iron at the bottom has been used for quite a while, while the new fake one at the top are still shiny. All black plastic material parts are actually quite similar by touch. The fake one is using stiff & cheap pvc cable for the connection to the station and shorter, while the genuine iron uses a high quality silicon wire, but I can live with that. The photo was shot at sharp angle, hence the above fake parts look tad smaller than bottom ones, all items are interchangeable between them as both part's dimensions are identical. Definitely the fake one can used as a cheap source for parts replacement just in case the non critical parts are deteriorating like the rusted&darken solder tip enclosure or the nut.02. Ceramic Heater Elements Comparison.jpgCloser look at both ceramic heater elements, the top fake heater doesn't have any label while the bottom genuine one with the printed "Hakko 003" with some dark burn marks as this poor little ceramic heater has been working hard for more than 10 years. Took a resistance measurement at the heating element and the heat sensor and they're still within Hakko specification.03. Hakko A1321 Genuine Used vs Fake Tip Close Up.jpgTwo close up shots at both tips with different lighting angles to show the difference. The genuine at the right has darken tip, not sure why is that. The fake one at the left has a really rough surface. And at the 2nd shot, you can see its so obvious that the fake's tip diameter is a bit larger than the body.Using a genuine Hakko solder tip, I simply could not insert the fake heater because of that bulging & bigger diameter at the ceramic tip, while no problem with fake solder tip cause it has larger diameter, same applies to other fake tips I got recently (posted here ->Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison). Still the fake tips rattle and loose at the fake heater, while using fake tips on genuine heater, they rattle even more and very loose.With poor thermal contact, this shows there is no way that a fake Hakko 926 (907) iron which has this fake heater and also fake tip inside can perform as level as genuine one, let alone the ceramic heater & sensor performance which I believe genuine one is much better.04. Hakko A1321 Genuine NEW vs Fake.jpgThe comparison between the fake vs new & genuine A1321 Hakko ceramic heater, just look at the ceramic's surface, no contest here. The genuine has a very smooth surface, while the fake's surface is really rough, again, its clear that there is no way the fake heater can have a good surface contact inside the solder tip's surface even using the genuine one.05. Hakko A1321 Ceramic Heater Tip Close Up.jpgClose up shots on the genuine A1321 ceramic heater tip, it has a really smooth surface and also the unique outer layer that wrapped around the center ceramic rod. That outer ceramic layer has the embedded heating element and the sensor. Also from this angles, its obvious the diameter is consistent throughout the rod, not like the fake one which is bulging at the tip.06. Hakko A1321 Ceramic Heater Internal.jpgFinally, the translucent ceramic heater shots at bright background light show the inside unique traces of the embedded heater element and sensor that are wrapped around the center rod. No, fake one doesn't have this and gathered from the net, the fake just used cheap heating wire spun inside it.Thats all, hope you find this useful.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2013, 10:51:22 am
content: The metal and plastic parts are not difficult to clone, so they've pretty much perfected that.I'd expect them to get better at heaters too; the first clones used bare nichrome on a ceramic rod, now they've moved onto sealed ceramic heaters.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2013, 01:54:36 pm
content: Thanks for all this good work! The real trick is does it function like a real Hakko heater? While fully assembled check:Compare the turn on time, to set temperature, how long? A good copy should be the same as the original. The longer it takes, the less efficient it is. The best test is next.Check temp loading curve: heat a fixed size copper plate, against both the Hakko vs clone. Attach a thermocouple to the plate once its in a stable state. See the waveform, are the curves similar? The slower the rise time, the weaker the heater.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2013, 03:05:04 pm
content: I have a 936 clone iron and the original element was total rubbish, so I bought a bag of 10 "Hakko" elements cheaply from HK. I cannot remember the price - it was about 2 years ago, but it must have been a few dollars an element - definitely not over $3 each.All are labelled as Hakko in packaging labelled "Hakko" and "Made In Japan". They are also absolutely identical to your Geniune Hakko elements in your photos in every respect.The iron heated from 9 degC to 350 degC (calibrated) in 23 seconds.Maybe I got the real thing?I have some cheap tips and they are probably fakes, but they work pretty well. I probably do not have a real tip to compare it to so I probably should get a genuine tip to compare. The tips were only a few dollars each.I have been happy with my clone 936 in general. The transformer seems to have the full Hakko power and stays cool. I think the board layout is closer to the Hakko design then many photos I have seen of newer clones.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2013, 04:46:10 am
content: @saturation,No need to compare the fake vs genuine heater performance, its so obvious and no brainer imo.Loose contact between the heater and the tip = poor heat transfer = poor heat control loop to the sensor = poor thermal regulation.@Richard,What a bargain you got there, I guess they should be genuine.Also I'd like to add about the genuine heater finish, actually those photo don't do justice, the ceramic surface is very-very smooth, and physically the whole ceramic rod was precisely made/molded.You should try genuine tip, no need a precision measurement, I believe you will definitely feel the huge difference, especially when the tip is thermally loaded.Check my other thread pointed at 1st post regarding fake tips, I have a strong believe that it's inner diameter were deliberately made larger to accommodate the fake heater, otherwise they just don't fit in.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2013, 07:12:50 am
content: "It is obvious" might be the thought, but sometimes things are not as obvious as they would seem and it's good to quantify the difference.Or what about effects of some high temperature thermal compound in the gap...? Even better than genuine tip+heater with only metal-to-ceramic contact?

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2013, 04:14:20 pm
content: Yes, but its only a highly plausible hypothesis until you prove it experimentally. There are many stories here of folks who claim the clones do just as well, so you never know, do it if you feel like it. I would if I had a clone tip to play with, but I buy all my stuff from Hakko USA directly so they are all original, so I hope.Quote from: BravoV on May 17, 2013, 04:46:10 am

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2013, 01:40:54 am
content: Same here, bought my 936 and those tips straight from Hakko authorised distributor, never tried any of those fakes until recently with those fake tips and this fake iron.No, I won't be bothered to proof or to try it out, especially after looking at the fake heater. Not only the bulging tip as the photo shows which can be easily filed off to smooth it out, I didn't mention that it has also a very rough and uneven weavy surface throughout the rod."Its obvious"with that kind of surface, even with the best thermal goop, I don't think the combination will yield out the best thermal conduction compared to the smooth genuine heater with a tight fit genuine tip, thats my believe.Also the messy and dripping goop situation whenever changing the tip is not what I'd like to face when using the solder station.

author: CalcProgrammer1
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 12:04:24 am
content: Hmm, seeing this reminds me...I got a SparkFun 936 clone iron a few years back during their free day event, but upon receiving it the iron wouldn't heat. I took it apart and the heating element was open circuit, so they sent me a replacement for free. It has the same off brand heater as in your pic, but I've been using it for ~2 years now and it's still going fine. I did, however, buy a genuine Hakko heating element to put in the broken unit but comparing the measurements the Hakko element was much lower resistance than the knockoff heater and so I ended up shelving the broken one as I didn't want to put a heater that wouldn't work and burn it up.Did you get the same result? I don't remember the measurements (did this a year ago or so) but the resistance of the working knockoff heater and the new genuine heater were quite different, with the genuine one being lower resistance. The SparkFun iron was made by Atten according to the PCB silkscreen inside and is otherwise identical looking to the Hakko 936 station as far as I can tell (haven't seen the inside of a real Hakko station, only iron). If the lower resistance just means it will reach temperature faster and still work fine I'd love to have a second working station!EDIT:Measured the working knock-off element heater at 11 ohms, sensor at basically zero ohms. The genuine heater was 3.x ohms and the sensor on it was 45-ish ohms.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 02:23:37 am
content: Quote from: CalcProgrammer1 on May 24, 2013, 12:04:24 amDid you compare the thermocouple resistances?There are two varieties of "936". The ones that use the A1321 elements. And the ones that use A1322 elements. The elements look identical but you can easily identify them by checking the resistance of the thermocouple.I have a "genuine" Hakko (1321), and a clone (1322) sitting here in front of me, quick awkward measurements in which a third hand would have been handy...(Hakko) A1321 thermocouple resistance: ~60 Ohms(Clone) A1322 thermocouple resistance: ~4 Ohms(Hakko) A1321 heater resistance: ~8 Ohms(Clone) A1322 heater resistance: ~18 OhmsNaturally, due to the different thermocouples, the elements are not interchangeable unless your station is setup to handle that.FWIW, the clone I have in general is a pretty damn good approximation to the "real deal" (which while there is nothing to suggest it's not apart from the price, may or may not actually be the real deal), the only real difference is in the cable. The clone uses a PVC (marked AWM 2464 VW-1). The "real deal" uses an unmarked silicone. The PVC cable is only slightly less flexible than the silicone one, either are perfectly fine for my purposes. Of course the heat resistance will be different, but we really should try to avoid burning our cables anyway ;-)

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 04:18:47 am
content: If I'm not mistaken, the fake heater or most 936 clone are using thermocouple as the sensor, hence the low resistance.While genuine Hakko uses PTC as sensor, both sensor's circuitries that are sensing the temperature are definitely different, mix used is not recommended since the wrong sensing result will end up bad thermal regulation or even toasting either the element or the driving circuit.Also as Hakko's specification in the manual, the resistance of heater element (red wires) must be within 2.5 - 3.5 Ohm, while the sensor (blue wires) must within 43 - 58 Ohm. If the resistance is out of these range, the manual recommends to replace the heater.Measurement results of my above two genuine Hakko A1321 heaters and the fake one at the pcb or directly at the wires, not at the solder handle's socket plug pins :Hakko A1321 heatersNew : Heater = 3.1 Ohm , Sensor = 49.8 OhmUsed : Heater = 3.0 Ohm , Sensor = 48.1 Ohm , still in pretty good condition even after > 10 yearsFake heater as above photoHeater = 13.2 Ohm , Sensor = 1.2 Ohm

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 05:19:48 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on May 24, 2013, 04:18:47 amNot really fake (as long as it's sold as an A1322), it's just different. As I say, some of the "clone" stations/controllers use A1322, while others, and Hakko, use A1321.There's also A1323 which is a stainless steel element, I'm not sure if it's the same electrical characteristics as the 1322, or something different again.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 06:52:51 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on May 24, 2013, 05:19:48 amBoth A1321 and A1322 have the same electrical characteristics as Hakko 936 manual stated.The 907 handle like above photo which is the most popular and most cloned at the knock-off 936 stations uses A1321, while A1322 heater is used only at the rare 900S handle which has bigger & longer tips than 907/908.Attached picture below some parts of the Hakko 936 manual joined together, highlighted at few areas and this pic should be self explanatory.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 09:04:54 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on May 24, 2013, 06:52:51 amInteresting.The Chinese sellers of the (not Hakko branded, but some are sailing close to the wind with "Hokon" etc) 1321 and 1322 elements often point out that these are not interchangeable and some go so far as to indicate the resistance tests to determine which one you need (by resistance of the sensor).I have a Chinese "diy" controller (DC power, 1602 LCD, blah blah) sold as handling "936" which is unable to drive the (Hakko, ostensibly) 907 handle I have correctly with the high resistance sensor (ptc), but has no problem with the (not Hakko) A1322 low resistance sensor (thermocouple).Anyway, whatever the situation, if you feed your station the wrong type of element (and it doesn't know), you're probably going to have a bad day. Resistance of the sensor is a quick way to check, which you have, or which you need.

author: millerb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 09:22:58 am
content: I just upgraded from a Radio Shack soldering station to an X-Tronic 4040. When I first got it, I opened up the soldering iron and thought, "Wow, this looks like fragile, cheap crap". Apparently it looks just like the inside of a Hakko iron. I've had it for a month and it's been great. I never knew how bad I was suffering with the Radio Shack station.

author: CalcProgrammer1
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 08:29:04 pm
content: Crap, the sensor on my clone is low resistance and the replacement heater is 45 Ohms. Is there anywhere you can buy the clone heaters or modify the station to accomodate the genuine heater? Going home for the holiday week but the circuit inside last I looked was pretty basic, might be possible to swap some resistors and re-cal it for the new heater? No clue what the official circuit looks like so maybe it's not so simple.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 12:50:16 am
content: Quote from: CalcProgrammer1 on May 24, 2013, 08:29:04 pmThis one is almost certainly the low resistance sensor type:http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10x-HEATING-ELEMENT-A1322-Ceramic-for-900M-900L-908-907-913-914-/190624272423?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item2c62179027&_uhb=1

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 10:56:04 am
content: Quote from: CalcProgrammer1 on May 24, 2013, 08:29:04 pmGenuine 936 schematic:http://www.n0ss.net/hakko_936_schem-pcb_&_mod_v1r7.pdf(One) clone:http://www.scipia.com/common_img/solderingstation/lm358_simple.png

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 09:59:49 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on May 25, 2013, 10:56:04 amI wonder if at the genuine Hakko 936 circuit, components like the triac driver chip NEC µPC1701C is still available or can be easily sourced ?

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 01:29:55 am
content: http://mark5.co.uk/product-info.php?UPC1701C-pid49238.html#.UaFlEJ5S77QNot sure if its in stock though, eBay there's a few. I search for alternative parts a few years ago there were a couple I think.

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2013, 04:13:35 am
content: I just want to add my findings to the "Grade Fail" heater. They are not fake they are just cheap clones that are NOT to be used with Hakko 936 stations. Electrically incompatible with the Hakko. They are actually Nichrome coil winding heaters and covered with a ceramic sleeve. These heaters are prone to breakage especially at the tip. And they don't like to be over driven, any more than 24vac it will be broken. I have seen numerous types where the coil length is different. So they perform drastic different. If you have this type of heaters, avoid at all cost. They are at the bottom food chain, it will actually cost you more in the long term, despite their cost. You can buy a clone Hakko control board and 'upgrade' your station along with those clone heating elements.There is another type of stainless metal sleeve heating element. It is made in Taiwan, it is compatible with those Nichrome winding ceramic heaters. These stainless heaters are very robust and will last 2-4 few years at 24x7.Next, there are also 220Vac heaters... make sure you avoid these because your control board probably don't like them. These two are not my picturesI have collected numerous types of heating elements over the years. There are plenty of "GRADE A" Hakko ceramic compatible clones. All of them perform very well. In case you are wondering, I use 4 at one time to heat up my DIY 200W heatplate. Works like a charm. I would recommend them if you can't find the genuine heater.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 05:05:55 am
content: Hey nukie, thanks for the addition of informations of these clone heaters, really appreciate it.That fake 936 station looks scary, it doesn't even have a transformer in it.Looks like you've experienced quite a lot with these clone heaters, aren't you ?About the grade A clone, have you ever tested the heater and sensor element profiles when heated, do they have similarity with the genuine one ?If I had the time, I might crack up my fake heater to see how it looks like inside.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 12:08:35 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on May 29, 2013, 05:05:55 amMost if not all of the hot air stations use a mains powered heater already, and cheap unregulated irons all do, so I guess it isn't that odd. They can probably get a lot more power and cheaper, since there's no transformer. I can't read the label on the socket but it might be a warning that this is a mains-powered iron, not a bad idea. It looks like the iron is still grounded so there shouldn't be a shock hazard, although one problem they might have is with buyers being a little reluctant with "Why is it so light inside...?"

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 06:42:29 am
content: Lets play detectiveI got bored today, so I took the digital caliper and started measuring the heating elements I had.Next I took Macro photos of the printing on the heating elements, the first two pictures are genuine, the rest are clones. It's very easy to tell, the Hakko printing is very thick and pretty.Clones...

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 06:56:31 am
content: Next, I tried measuring the sensor resistance vs temperature, it was very tricky I didn't want to connect the sensor to the control board because it might introduce error, and that means I have to control the temperature manually. Well, I hooked up a push button in series with the 24vac transformer and that did it. I was hard trying to 'stabilise' the temperature but I soon get the hang of it. The thermocouple sensor was sandwiched with the heating element by a piece of copper. The sensor resistance reading is taken by 4 wire 34401 to reduce lead resistance error and temperature readout via Fluke 187 and a thick K thermocouple which acts as a thermal buffer so it sinks those heat spikes.I made a mistake when entering the data, Clone 4 first value is 62 Ohms for 100C.Unfortunately I was only able to do 5 sets, it was a tedious and slow process. But I think it should be enough as soon as I saw the graph. The clones behave similar to the Hakko. I might rig up a automatic microcontroller based test jig that measures heatup times between temperatures. When I get some more free time.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 07:12:15 am
content: So the clones you have systematically report a to low temperature. I.e. a genuine controller would try to heat them up more than they should.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 02:06:49 pm
content: @nukie, awesome job!Overall again, it shows you do get more with the original Hakko part for the money you pay. My comments.As BAW said, the controller would work 'harder' as the lower resistance would draw more power to obtain the same heat.The resistance is less linear in the clones, so the temperature markings on the analog station, which are just interpolative paint marks, will have a larger error with the clone tips. The red colored heater is the least error, as it has the same slope as an original heater, just offset by "X".

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 02:49:45 pm
content: Hold on, im getting confused now, my small brain could not work out the problem. Yes the clones have a different resistance vs temperature profile than the Hakko. But if the station is calibrated at say 350c to work with the clones what difference does the RTD makes?

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 04:49:34 pm
content: Quote from: nukie on May 30, 2013, 02:49:45 pmIf you have the station specifically calibrated for a clone then dialing in 350C should give you 350C.But ...if you use an (original) station/controller, calibrated for an original heater, replace the heater with a clone, and if you then dial in 350C, you might get 400C (green, orange clones) or even more (the other clones). Maybe 450C, but the graph ends at 400C.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 08:36:07 pm
content: Yes, I concur with BAW comment.To clarify here's a photo of the painted scale on the 936, the error would apply to any other analog station with a painted scale such as the FX888.Since the scale on the original 936 is based on the Hakko heater, the curve of replacement heaters should match it. The more it deviates from it, the more error there is. If you calibrate just one point on the scale using a clone heater, the scale of temperature would not correspond to the printed temp the farther you are from the calibrated point; thus the benefit of 'dial a temp' is lost. For example, if the Hakko heater read 101 ohms at 250C, and we use the purple clone heater in the original 936 station, the temp maybe over 300C because the original Hakko station outputspowerto drive 101 ohms.Even had it been a clone station, it order to just paint a temp scale, it would expect a certain curve from the heating element. So if an owner bought just any compatible heater, the more the replacement heater deviated from the original heater's curve, the more error the scale could be.The problem lies in that the simple Hakko design does not read out true temp in real time. If it did, then what you dial is what you get regardless of the curve of the replacement heater or RTD.Note, the 936 scale is calibrated to read the soldering tip temperature, not the tip of the heater, but for the sake of this discussion we are ignoring it.Now is the scale important? Yes, if you are concerned with the benefits of knowing the tip temp when soldering: the value of temp regulation and specific temps in the process of hand soldering quality, reducing thermal stress on soldered components and staying << 350C to maximize tip and heater life.You could still solder the way it was done before temp regulation became the norm, in which case you could just calibrate the temp at 350C then just wing it by 'feel' below or above it, since the true temps on other parts of the scale would be more uncertain.Alternatively, a user could calibrate the whole scale by checking tip temps against all the major divisions and manually re-mark the scale to correct deviations.Quote from: nukie on May 30, 2013, 02:49:45 pm

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 09:59:06 pm
content: I understand that the clones will not be matching the scales on the panel but why would it draw more power?

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2013, 07:34:19 am
content: I think measuring a few more genuine elements (if you have any) would be required to truly characterise them, otherwise it could be said you just happened to have one which had higher resistance than the clones.Quote from: saturation on May 30, 2013, 08:36:07 pmYou mean using a thermocouple? That's what some of the clones do. Perhaps that's why they use one instead, because the temperature vs voltage is more standard?

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2013, 06:30:47 pm
content: Sorry if it was vague so my bad, nukie, forget the "output power", I'll change the term. I presume that if the blue Hakko heater sensor shows 101 ohms at 250C, then the Hakko station "thinks" 101 ohms is 250C. So I am presuming that if you put an orange clone heater in a real Hakko, the Hakko station will continue tooutput powerdrive the heater of the clone so the sensor reads also 101 ohms, which based on this chart means near 300C.It logical from the schematic that this will happen but maybe the calibration pot can correct this offset, which I forgot all about!.Quote from: nukie on May 30, 2013, 09:59:06 pm

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2013, 06:59:23 pm
content: Yes, it would be good to measure another real Hakko to compare, but nukies procedures are clear enough for another person with a similar station to confirm the Hakko sensor output.Yes a thermocouple or equivalent sensor, I believe Hakkos use a thermistor, or similar RTD device. Unfortunately, just having a sensor doesn't mean the tip temperature is correct, if you truly care about it. Most separated heater-tip assemblies usually place sensors on the base of the tip, and its difficult to get a sensor right at the tip particular the small geometry tips. So, the difference in temp has to be 'calibrated' to adjust for the difference. The problem lies when the tip wears, the sensor is still measuring the tip base and not the true tip temp, thus requiring periodic calibration check of the tip temp.More expensive stations use tips which integrate the sensor, heater and tip as a single package to correct for this error and are typically calibration free tips.Quote from: amyk on May 31, 2013, 07:34:19 am

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2013, 12:59:44 am
content: Nukie, I'm amazed with the vast informations and the efforts you've provided, making my 1st post isn't worthy compared to yours, thank you Sir !About the clone heaters, did you deliberately bought PTC version instead of the thermocouple ones ?As my measurement result on the sensor where fake is 1R2 Ohm while genuine is about approx. 50 Ohm, looks like even at the clone market, its divided between two camps aren't they ?

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2013, 07:28:15 am
content: Quote from: saturation on June 01, 2013, 06:30:47 pmActually it was my fault, I didn't pen(keyboard?!) my question properly in the first place. I think we know very well how controller works. Yes I was thinking of the offset that can be tune by the calibration trimpot in the beginning. Anyway the clones shows a rather similar curve except for clone #4. I would like to get my hands on more genuine heaters to repeat the test but I only have two and with that many clone spares lying around I don't think I will spend money on a genuine heater unless I visit Japan or Hongkong again. I love to support local shops and I try my best to do so but inflation has gotten to the point where it is unsensible for my wallet to do soBravoV -Thank you for your kind words, I am just as curious as you.The Nichrome Wire heater sensor leads is actually polarity sensitive. Try connecting to a dmm, and you will see a voltage across, and heat up the sensor with a butane lighter you will see either increase in voltage or a negative voltage. I think that's how a thermocouple works I am not very well versed with them.In the beginning I was trying to build a ~3x3" heatplate to help preheat bare circuit boards so my hotair gun don't have to work too hard. I bought the cheaper $1(in 20 pieces bulk) when I was poor and cheap, it didn't work properly with the Hakko station so I bought the RTD ones. Seeing how the RTD were similar to the Hakko, I decided to invest in them as my heatplate would need 4 at one time. 2 takes time to heatup, 4 pieces at 200w just makes it faster and less load means they last longer. Ceramic heaters is a wonderful technology.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2013, 06:05:07 am
content: Wow... BravoV, Nukie nice work and interesting readingNukie heres my heater on myYihua 936 $15.74 special. I remember you asked a while back.No need to pretend it's a Hakko here

author: Pantelis
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 05, 2013, 07:02:07 pm
content: Hello, i have the fake flowing soldering iron and i like it because ti is very light. The ptc resistance is 55 Ohm.I am wondering how could i adapt a thermocouple somewhere close to the tip, so that use this controlerhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Controller-Thermocouple-REX-C100-Dual-Digital-PID-Celsius-Temperature-Control-/390567595022?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5aefa48c0e

author: genBTC
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 03:14:27 pm
content: I need a massive amount of help. I Have a "Tenma 21-10115 60W soldering station" base. This is a horrible clone, its very unique and dumb. The wand broke, and I bought an original Haako A1321 element wand to replace it. They are incompatible in many ways.Background info:The station only has 3 usable wires. Heater +, Heater -, Ground.(The wand it came with, likewise.) There is no where for temperature sensor to attach. The digital read-out checks resistance (I presume) of the heater element that it came with, and was calibrated to it. I presume this because the wand that died now has infinite resistance (no idea what it was when working), and the base station gives me an error of "5-E" when its hooked up, and refuses to do anything, this is the same error that happens when NO wand at all is attached. I checked as many spec values as I could before powering it on so I wouldnt blow the thing up (Luckily it hasn't yet, but I will if I use it for any more than 15 seconds.). The base station drives with 24V AC. The replacement A1321 wand has a Heater (red wire) resistance of 3 ohms. The temperature sensor has a resistance of 48 ohms (but i cannot plug this in).Problems:When I wire up the Heater to the base, it heats up to the solder melting point within 3-5 seconds!!!!This would amazing if it were sustainable, because the old wand took minutes. The station has a digital readout and a calibration Offset between -58F and +122F. (the entire unit uses Fahr., not Cels.) The lowest target temp you can set it to is 302F. When the offset calibration is set to its max of +122F (example: set higher offset to "trick" it into thinking the wand is already hotter) the "current real temp" shows up starting out as like 212F, and increases very slowly by +2F every second. This cannot be true. It obviously starts out at 60F and heats up to 350F within 5 seconds.I let it climb to what the display said was 250F and it was already melting leaded 180C (356F) solder well before that point, and would not have kept going, driving the element until it thought it reached 302F. This is not sustainable, and will kill the element.What can I do ?I can post pics or something later in the day, or I might have to move this all to a new thread. The controller in the base station sucks so bad compared to a legit or even a good clone, I cant even find specs for it on DangerousPrototypes, because I looked to see how to figure out how to wire in a temperature sensor directly. If anyone has any insight into how to do this, please help! Desperate at this point to salvage the mismatched combination of dumb base + legit wand.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 03:23:47 pm
content: Quote from: Pantelis on September 05, 2013, 07:02:07 pm1 you dont want this controller, pid loop i 1 second2 if you want tip with thermocouple as close to the tip as possible buy T12 cartridges, there is even a DIY controller for them on ebay, $20 will get you a tip, handle and controller

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 03:44:07 pm
content: Quote from: genBTC on May 05, 2015, 03:14:27 pmit has thermocouple in series with heating element

author: genBTC
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 06:53:09 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on May 05, 2015, 03:44:07 pmSo can I wire in the authentic A1321 48 ohm Thermocouple blue wires in series with the 3 ohm Heater red wires? To match the design of this crap base station?

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 03:51:45 pm
content: Quote from: genBTC on May 06, 2015, 06:53:09 amdepends on type of thermocouple, so no ideayou can tryor read this threadhttp://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457&p=50627#p50627,there is a ton of info about types of heaters/sensors in there

author: genBTC
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 09:32:36 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on May 06, 2015, 03:51:45 pmI tried just wiring it in series. Now the iron is too cold. It works, but only at the upper range. Solder melts @ 780F on the readout and max it will go up to is 840. (thats by setting the calibration to the lowest it will go). It also takes plenty of time to heat up, like it did before. I think i'm at the point where I need to mod the controller. Thanks for the tip of wiring series, this way at least proves that it works based on resistance. I wonder if i could wire in another 100 ohm resistor in parallel or something to drop the temp to a lower range.

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 09:40:56 pm
content: Hi,I had posted some info on the irons and their heaters a while back.Basically they sell two different kinds, and yes they each have their own sensor and heater resistance.The most interesting part is the heater resistance, because that's what makes the iron wattage rating what it is. The lower power ones have a higher resistance, and the higher power ones have a lower resistance. But also interesting is they are rarely rated for what they are sold as. Many of the "60 watt" irons come out to only 36 real watts. The other ones come up to only 50 real watts.The 907A iron often sold as a 60 watt unit only measures 36 watts, and the iron with the yellow handle measures 50 watts.That may still be enough for circuit board soldering though, so at least they do work. I just did not like the deception in the sales.And yes, one has a thermocouple and one has a resistance sensor, so they are not compatible at all. The controllers for the thermocouple will rely on a voltage signal, while the controllers for the resistance type sensors will rely on a resistance measurement.Either way though, these controllers are some of the simplest circuits i've ever seen. It takes very little to make one, so anyone can make a second soldering iron station with a few parts. The main part is the transformer, which has to be able to put out the full power of the iron which can be either 36 watts (true power) or 50 watts (true power). Alternately you could use a DC power supply, but i have not studied the effect of DC current on the longevity of the element vs AC current, and they are usually driven by AC current. I think they use AC though just to avoid the more expensive parts needed to build a DC power supply of the equivalent power rating.The controllers can be very simple because they just rely on a single set point temperature. In other words, if we set it to 350 degrees C, then it always detects the level of voltage that represents that temperature, so there is no problem like linearity and the like. That only comes in if you want a true linear pot setting, which you dont need either. For example, if you turn the pot a little and measure the tip temperature and mark the dial, then turn it a little more and measure temp and mark the dial, you'd be just as well off as if you had a four digit temperature display.Of course the thermocouple type need an amplifier to amplify the small thermo voltage generated, but it isnt too bad at these normally high temperatures used for soldering.You could look up thermocouple voltages on the web and get an idea what to expect.Alternately, just heat up the iron with a DC power supply and measure the voltage coming out of the connector for the sensor. The thermocouple voltage will increase as the temperature increases, and you can measure the tip temperature and correlate. Probably dont need cold junction compensation either because of the high temperatures involved in normal soldering. I would think the voltage would be around 0.5 volts at soldering temperatures, but a measurement would show the voltage for sure.I think it is a very good idea to have at least 2 irons, with different tips, so you dont have to change tips. That's a good idea that i read elsewhere in this thread. Having a second iron controller would be nice too, in order to have them both up and running and ready to go.The last time i made a small oven for testing electronic parts was probably 35 years ago, but all it took was a potentiometer, thermistor, voltage reference, op amp, and drive transistor (along with heater and power supply). Very simple circuit similar to this kind.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 10:28:56 pm
content: Quote from: genBTC on May 06, 2015, 09:32:36 pmyep, K type thermocouple versus N (or something) will give you difference like thisand no its not resistance, controller cuts power to the iron and measures thermocouple voltage, then resumes powering itQuote from: MrAl on May 06, 2015, 09:40:56 pmMrAl it depends, JBC C245 cartridges are 3.5 ohm, and are rated at 160 W peak, You end up with a soldering iron that sleeps below 180' on the stand, and goes back to set temperature in under a second when you pick it up - faster than your hand moves from the stand to work area.

author: Julez
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 03:33:03 pm
content: Hi Guys,I am planning on building a soldering station for a 907 clone solderin iron. I already bought a digital controller:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Soldering-Station-Temperature-Controller-for-HAKKO-ESD-907-Iron-Handle-/111629424728However, I am not totally satisfied with this one. The solder already melts at 50°C set temperature, and at 350°C set temperature, the iron is hotter, but not 300K hotter.Also in general, I like a simpler interface with a rotary knob like on my Weller WS81.So I plan on adding a poti in series with the PTC element inside the ceramic heater element.I am referring to this posting:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/genuine-vs-fake-hakko-936-ceramic-heater-a1321/msg239393/#msg239393So first of all, I am going to add a 50ohm trimmer to compensate the Y-offset of the clone ceramic.According to the measurements, the temperature coefficient is around 4,3K/ohm. So I plan to add another 100 ohm poti in series to adjust the temperature. The scale would span 430K here, I would chose 20-450°C here. So, by turning the poti, I would fool the controller into thinking the heater is hotter or cooler than it actually is, and thus adjust the temperature to another range.Example: To "calibrate" the temperature, I would observe the exact melting point of solder, which is about 190°C. This corresponds perfectly with my Weller, at 190°C setting the solder barely starts to melt here.So I would adjust the poti to 190°C, and then slowly increase the temperature settings on the controller until the solder melts. Then I would always operate the controller at that temperature, and adjust the iron with the poti. If I wanted the iron to be 290°C, I would decrease the poti resistance by 23ohm, so the controller would increase it's current output until the original resistance is again estabilshed, which would be at 100K higher temperature (100K/4.3K/ohm=23ohm).I plan a station with switchable double output, therefore the need for a trimmer for each output to compensate differences of the individual ceramic elements. At the end, the ceramic PTC, the trimmer and the adjustment poti would all be in series.Is this project feasible, or is there an error in my thinking somewhere?Regards,JulezEdit:I realized the project described above. Here is a link:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/simple-diy-soldering-station-for-hakko-907-iron/

author: KludgeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2016, 06:28:18 am
content: Here is Yihua soldering station, complete, price speaks for itself:http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__19240__Soldering_Station_with_Adjustable_Heat_Range_US_Warehouse_.htmlAnd, here is a replacement ceramic element, for when the element needs replaced, for the above Yihua Station:http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Heating-Element-Heater-for-AT936b-AT8586-ATTEN-Soldering-Station-Iron/2048897418.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.2.89Z9nu&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_9,searchweb201644_2_505_506_503_504_301_502_10014_10001_10002_10017_10010_10005_10006_10011_10003_10004_10009_10008,searchweb201560_1,searchweb1451318400_-1,searchweb1451318411_6452&btsid=94afe2ba-7f15-46d9-a13f-9613be6cc0f2The above element is commonly referred to as a 132A, Atten element, or generally, when already installed in the handle, referred to as a AT936b handle.This is a Hakko Dashboard/controller, just add case, 24v ~4A transformer, and a Hakko 907 handle with a Hakko A1321 heating element.http://www.ebay.com/itm/HAKKO936-Soldering-station-control-panel-PCB-A1321-Core-Male-or-Female-Interface-/131489348409?var=&hash=item1e9d603b39:m:mnJ_IE8iiaW_Vhgp7YajMvw(make sure to choose the option of plug type to match the plug on your handle)And here is a A1321 Hakko/clone element:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hot-White-Heating-Element-for-HAKKO-Soldering-Station-Iron-A1321-936-937-CA-/161949033608?hash=item25b4ea2488:g:Cf4AAOSwoydWjqMIThe main point here is, the 132A Yihua element is NOT a hakko element, and the Yihua station MUST be used with a Yihua compatable handle/element.And, likewise, the A1321 Hakko element is NOT a Yihua element, and works with the Hakko controller/dashboard, above.Frankly, any iron which gets hot enough to melt the solder I am working with, AND maintains a relative consistant temp while soldering the materials I am working with, IS ALL I REALLY NEED.I find soldering irons like Vodka, any brand which gets me drunk is just fine, and I have found most to work well.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2016, 06:59:57 am
content: KludgeIt, have you found whole replacement irons for the Yihua 936?

author: KludgeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2016, 07:38:49 am
content: Quote from: Shock on February 25, 2016, 06:59:57 amI ordered this one, thinking it would work on my Hakko 936, however, the heater, pins 1-2, was ~12 ohms (hakko is ~4ohms), and the sensor, pins 4-5, was around 2ohms (Hakko is ~50 ohms), so I plugged it into my Yihua, and am using it now:http://www.ebay.com/itm/381474354799?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AITHowever, if you look at the "item specifics" on this page, this states it will work the 936, and mentions that number:http://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Quality-ESD-Solder-Iron-Handle-858D-909D-852D-for-SAIKE-kada-ATTEN-YIHUA-Five-hole/32280730916.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.194.KOPWzS&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_9,searchweb201644_4_505_506_503_504_10020_502_10014_10001_10002_10017_10010_10005_10006_10011_10003_10021_10004_10022_10009_10008_10018_10019,searchweb201560_5,searchweb1451318400_-1,searchweb1451318411_6452&btsid=1676ee98-84c0-4b8d-a245-6ed2681dfa9dThe problem is, these sellers are as confused as we are out here, and many are selling handles which are NOT really for the soldering station they suggest.I recommend using the knowledge in my first post, above, and attempting to read all the fine print, to deduce which station they will actually work with.As putting the wrong handle on the wrong controller has always resulted in burning out the heating element, IN SHORT ORDER, but no other damage done.The 132A - Yihua - atten heating element has different wires than the Hakko A1321. There is a POLARITY, on the 132A sensor/thermo-couple, and the wires to the sensor are usually red and blue, or blue and yellow. The Hakko is a thermo-resistor, and has no polarity, and everyone I have gotten have blue leads to the sensor. If the listing shows an element laid beside the handle in question, this can be used to help confirm the handle will work on the particular station in question.If you have a handle, and want to determine which station it will work on, you can remove the tip, and metal heat shield -- CAREFULLY, and inspect the element, and you should be able to determine that from those sensor wires. Also, on th A1321 element, BOTH heater wires have been RED on mine, and CLEAR/TRANSPARENT on the 132A Yihua elements. And, even the insulation, on the wires, itself, are of different materials bettween the Hakko and Yihua elements -- use ebay or aliexpress and the pictures to see what you are looking for, on the elements.I hope this helps.

author: Chalcogenide
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2016, 07:39:40 am
content: I was able to replace the heater in a rebranded 936A+ (which I believe is the very same as the 936) with anHakko A1321 clone. It is not a perfect fit, but it does work and I was able to recalibrate the station to work correctly.Thisis also a complete handle that works just fine as well (still needed calibration on mine, was consistently too cold when used with default factory calibration - just like the replacement element linked above).

author: KludgeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2016, 07:50:40 pm
content: Now you guys got me reexamining my soldering equipment, and heating elements!It now appears to me that the Yihua 936 station may take the Hakko A1322 element ... and the Hakko 936 controller/dashboard/station may take the A1321.It also appears that the sellers might be selling IMPROPERLY LABELED/NUMBERED elements, IN SOME OF THE SELLERS LISTINGS.Further, the A1322 seems to be ~36 watts, and the A1321 50 watts plus. However, most of all my soldering is pc boards, strip boards, proto boards, etc., so both work well for me.Now, this appears to be the difference between 80 proof Vodka, and 100 proof Vodka -- and I am ALWAYS A SUCKER FOR THE 100 PROOF VODKA!Comments, anyone?

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2016, 10:52:17 am
content: Quote from: KludgeIt on February 25, 2016, 07:50:40 pmsell/give/throw away 936 stuff and move on to Hakko T12/T15 cartridges, difference will be night and day.

author: KludgeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2016, 03:34:09 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on February 26, 2016, 10:52:17 amThrow away your pickup truck, and buy a Peterbilt Diesel Rig. Throw away your ford, and buy a Maserati. Move out of you $100,000 home, and into a $10,000,000 mansion. Throw out you Popov Vodka, and buy Smirnoff ... stop just soldering, AND BE TRENDY!Point being, a man with a full woodworking shop can make a birdhouse. And, a true craftsman, with some wood, and a pocket knife can make a birdhouse ... and a true DIY'er, with some potatoes and a homemade still can make his own Vodka, and instead of 100 proof Vodka, you can have near 200 proof Vodka (200 proof = 100% ETHYL ALCOHOL.)

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2016, 05:45:43 pm
content: Quote from: KludgeIt on February 26, 2016, 03:34:09 pmyou lost me, all I got from this is you need a rehab

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 06:32:57 pm
content: I want to thank those who put detailed effort into this thread. This thread should become a sticky. I was searching an ebay seller to bulk up my order when I saw a clone HAKKO 936 replacement head for $3.05 shipped. I had an old Hex-A-Con with a burnt out element, how bad could this replacement be. It also had a 24V supply though not temperature controlled. I also have a 12V camp and wanted a low voltage iron that could run off a battery. Also had a number of PID controllers that I could play around with. This can easily drive a triac. These PID controllers are only about $13 shipped. Easy to program, you only need to enter a P value to get reasonable control.The new head arrived and was decent enough quality. I cut the connector off because a matingconnector costs as much as the head itself. K temp sensor is pin 5 BLUE + and pin 4 YELLOW -.Heater is pin 1 GREEN and pin 2 RED Pin 3 is iron ground. I leave this disconnected as I haveshorted out many a circuit with the old grounded iron. Maybe 1-5meg to drain off any staticcharge. I filed a little bit of the fluted head plastic to fit the iron holder and used a round file to open the plastic mount. Why fool around with elements when you can get the whole head this cheap. Very pleased with this cheap fix.Powering up the heater with 5VDC, the temperature stabilized at about 110C and at 10V was 300C.The heater measured 14 ohms and at 12VDC the temperature stabilized at about 440C. This was .84Aand about 10W would be normal heat loss. At this point you could possibly solder if not too much heat was drawn away. My solar system battery usually stays a little over 14V so I should be able to do some light soldering without using a boost converter. This could be switched in and outas needed.

author: KludgeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2016, 03:43:53 pm
content: Hakko 936 clone-case:http://www.aliexpress.com/item/HAKKO-936-Soldering-Station-shell-case-with-screw-knob/32424323859.htmlBetter looking than the Silver Flask I carry my Vodka in!Controller:http://www.ebay.com/itm/HAKKO936-Soldering-station-control-panel-PCB-A1321-Core-Male-or-Female-Interface-/131489348409?var=&hash=item1e9d603b39:m:mnJ_IE8iiaW_Vhgp7YajMvwGood tip for strip board, etc.:http://www.aliexpress.com/item/900M-T-1-6D-Soldering-Iron-Tips-For-Solder-HAKKO-907-Soldering-Handle/32510814132.htmlNow, just add 24v ~3A transformer, A1321 handle, and power cord!

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 01:23:44 pm
content: Quote from: KludgeIt on March 01, 2016, 03:43:53 pmOr just spend $10.22 (US warehouse and wait for discount to appear) and buy a Yihua 936 clone fromHobbyKing.

author: KludgeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 07:12:32 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on March 04, 2016, 01:23:44 pmThe price you are quoting DOES NOT include shipping ... mine ended up costing a bit less than $20.00 for the Yihua.The Yihua, with 132A element in the handle, is only 36 watts. The Hakko, with the A1321 element in the handle, is 50+ watts, the elements for Yihua and Hakko ARE NOT interchangeable. The replacement Hakko elements, A1321, are MUCH cheaper and can be had for as little as $1.05 on ebay, at the time of this post (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hot-White-Heating-Element-for-HAKKO-Soldering-Station-Iron-A1321-936-937-CA-/161949033608?hash=item25b4ea2488:g:Cf4AAOSwoydWjqMI), plus the A1321 are more prevalent.Hakko Case:http://www.aliexpress.com/item/HAKKO-936-Soldering-Station-shell-case-with-screw-knob/32424323859.htmlHakko Controller:http://www.ebay.com/itm/HAKKO936-Soldering-station-control-panel-PCB-A1321-Core-Male-or-Female-Interface-/131489348409?var=&hash=item1e9d603b39:m:mnJ_IE8iiaW_Vhgp7YajMvwJust add a scavenged 24V ~3A (or greater) transformer (or purchase one --http://www.antekinc.com/as-0524-50va-24v-transformer/), handle, and cord.If 36W does it for you, great idea, if you want 50W Hakko does it for you ... it is all about being well informed, and deciding, yourself.But then, about the same with Vodka, and the choice is simply 80 proof, or 100 proof ... and pay a bit more for the value you wish to perceive.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 02:02:33 am
content: Quote from: KludgeIt on March 04, 2016, 07:12:32 pmThe Hakko FX-888D goes on special for $69 a few times a year in the US, so making a 936 clone for $40-50 after all parts are considered (in the US) makes less sense than for other parts of the world.If you are niggling over per dollar for wattage and bang for buck value, the Chinese clone of the HAKKO FX-951 controller (digitally controlled) with fake FM-2027 FM-2028 handle using genuine Hakko T12 T15 series tips gets you a better iron and a similar price if you hunt around.

author: KludgeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 02:51:22 am
content: Quote from: Shock on March 05, 2016, 02:02:33 amI think you want to "niggle" for me!I simply pointed out available items, and that a craftsman with $1.99 iron can exceed the efforts of an amateur with a million-dollar soldering station.... and how cheaply these stations can be maintained.Just exactly what would you accuse me of "niggling?"If I "niggled" anything, it would be a $50.00 fifth of Vodka, to a $9.99 fifth! (or even less!)And, unless I am mistaken, most would have a 24V 50VA (or greater VA) transformer in their junkbox, or be able to scavenge one from the electonics in a dumpster, along with power cord, (or, desperately degrade themselves, and just "niggle" them, somewhere) so:Case:http://www.aliexpress.com/item/HAKKO-936-Soldering-Station-shell-case-with-screw-knob/32424323859.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.11.GHHdwJ&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_6,searchweb201644_2_505_506_503_504_10032_10020_502_10014_10001_10002_10017_10005_10006_10003_10021_10004_10022_10018_10019,searchweb201560_1,searchweb1451318400_-1,searchweb1451318411_-1&btsid=83b46743-2240-4612-93d4-f5e4ddd6813fController:http://www.ebay.com/itm/HAKKO936-Soldering-station-control-panel-PCB-A1321-Core-Male-or-Female-Interface-/131489348409?var=&hash=item1e9d603b39:m:mnJ_IE8iiaW_Vhgp7YajMvwHandle:http://www.aliexpress.com/item/24V-Soldering-Station-Iron-Handle-for-HAKKO-907-ESD-907-936-937-928-926/32473852261.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.80.50phkr&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_6,searchweb201644_2_505_506_503_504_10033_10032_10020_502_10014_10001_10002_10017_10005_10006_10003_10021_10004_10022_10018_10019,searchweb201560_1,searchweb1451318400_-1,searchweb1451318411_-1&btsid=14e45206-3ad6-46e4-a1e9-3f31bfea6b50CASE $12.50 USD free shippingCONTROLLER $7.68 USD free shippingHANDLE $3.44 USD free shipping-------------------------------------------------------SUB TOTAL $23.62OPTIONAL "niggled" VODKA ~$10.00-------------------------------------------------------TOTAL $33.62

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 10:17:52 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on March 05, 2016, 02:02:33 amNiggle: to spend too much time and effort on inconsequential details.Quote from: KludgeIt on March 05, 2016, 02:51:22 amFor people without a soldering station I doubt it, also it needs to fit that case. You suggested that price yourself I just added a little shipping, fuse and holder, switch, wiring, power cable etc (about $10 worth which is realistic).All I'm saying is you're close to buying the actual FX-888D with an included $5 genuine tip and warranty in the US. For the money you suggest you might as well build a better clone than the 936.I understand the argument about building from parts, but if you had the parts it would only cost around $13 for a Chinese fake FM-2027/FM-2028 handle with 2 included T12/T15 tips and you could build the HAKKO FX-951 controller from salvaged parts.The other point I'll make (and you may have not been around for this) is that the genuine Hakko 936s were on run out for $50 in the states when they brought out the Hakko FX-888 model. There was a similar deal for the Hakko FX-888 when it was superseded by the FX-888D. Geuine Hakko 936s still sell for a similar amount used on Ebay.

author: KludgeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 10:27:30 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on March 05, 2016, 10:17:52 pmThat would be GREAT!Give us a post with links to the parts/prices/shipping/details, and building a FX-951 and a FX-888.Sounds like you have the details to make us all forget about the 936! If cheap as you claim, I will stick one together!I will be waiting ...Simple Definition of niggle: to worry or annoy (someone): to argue or make criticisms about something that is not importanthttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/niggle... and, if you can't find a power cord, switch, fuse, holder, etc., in the same dumpster where you find gear with the transformer, then look in the next one over.And, if it makes you feel better paying something for the transformer, check with heater-furnace/air-conditioner repairmen, or use your imagination ... the guy had a shelf full of 'em here, and sold me a used one for $5.00 ... I picked one to fit my case.... and, if you find this post useful, and worth something to you, send me some Vodka as a donation, those little bottles which they hand out on airliners, or gift you at some hotels, would be greatly appreciated, if you have any kicking around!

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 12:01:17 pm
content: I'm sure you will figure it out eventually.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 02:05:16 pm
content: Quote from: KludgeIt on March 04, 2016, 07:12:32 pmI just don't understand, all of the time you mention Hakko... Hakko. Nothing of that is Hakko, just Chinese crap.

author: KludgeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 02:07:52 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 06, 2016, 02:05:16 pmFunny, I have never "heard" the parts I have soldered, or the circuit boards, complain. Perhaps you are "hearing things" others don't?Indeed, what is the difference between the 50VA (watts) supplied to the heater by "cheap chinese junk", and the 50VA supplied to the heater by "THE GREAT HAKKO GOD?"... I have seen NONE! And, you haven't noticed the "Hakko" name on the clones, which I am referring to?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 02:16:36 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on February 26, 2016, 05:45:43 pm+1, too much vodka, it seems.http://www.rehabs.com/top-rated-treatment-centers/

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 02:19:07 pm
content: Quote from: KludgeIt on March 06, 2016, 02:07:52 pmWhen they'll start to complain, it will be too late for you, it seems.

author: KludgeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 02:26:15 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 06, 2016, 02:19:07 pmExtraordinary claims, require EXTRAORDINARY PROOF!Finding those who can tell the difference between a board soldered with "cheap chinese junk" (Hakko 936 clone), and a board soldered with a unit "MADE BY THE GREAT HAKKO GOD!", might be more difficult then you are imagining!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 03:03:59 pm
content: Quote from: KludgeIt on March 06, 2016, 02:26:15 pmI can make high quality job with crap soldering iron. I can do a bit better with good soldering station but it's much easier to do. Also when you need to solder with a lead free solder some multilayer boards with high thermal mass, you'll notice that it can become very difficult unless you have a very good solder station.BTW, I don't think that HAKKO is GOD (someone really needs rehab and drinking less vodka), especially 888(D), and older 936 model, I actually think it's not better than average at best.

author: KludgeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 03:32:43 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 06, 2016, 03:03:59 pmThen, all you are noticing is that living in million dollar house is more comfortable than living in a hundred-thousand dollar house? That shooting a varmint with an elephant gun, as opposed to a 22 Cal. is more effective?My posts have centered on the Hakko 936. This threads title focuses on the heating element of the Hakko 936. Yet, everyone wants to speak on every other unit. Why not just post about those units in more appropriate threads?If I wanted to post on any other type of station, type of handles, types of heaters, I would go to the appropriate threads and make my posts there. Why are you here discussing other units, THAN THE 936? Am I supposed to believe this is anything but "niggling?"Apparently you can tell that my posts are accurate, focus on truth and facts, and what is real, and can be demonstrated ... so why go to a 936 thread to discuss 888Ds or other off topic soldering stations ... other than just one simple remark to point them out, in a discussion FOCUSED ON 936s.And now, the terminally insane seem to make claims that the power supplied to these 936 heaters, somehow, takes on "magical properties", if it is 50W supplied by a unit which makes Hakko rich, as opposed to 50W supplied by a unit which DOES NOT make Hakko rich. Sorry, I call BS on that one, I will leave it to others, to see if they agree, or disagree.You wish us to be so stupid we don't notice what is really going on, or the real nigglers?... and yes, in the time honored tradition of "attack the messenger, NOT THE MESSAGE", you attack me, or a Vodka bottle ... and I should think everyone watches that, too -- EXCEPT you!And, in the end, it all breaks down to just this, in six months, or so, when I want/need to replace my 936 heating element with a new one, it will cost me ~$1.00 USD. ... or that keeping my old case, transformer, etc., I can have, basically, a BRAND NEW 936 by just replacing a >$8.00 USD controller.EDIT:Now, in giving this some hard, serious, thought, and attempting to see exactly what you are saying, I am left with the opinion that you are going to all this effort to point out to me that shaving with a 0.25 cent disposable, plastic, razor IS NOT THE SAME, as shaving with a $100,000 solid gold razor, with a diamond studded handle!... and you are quite correct, and leave me to now ponder on that difference -- and just how much of that difference is imagined? ... and especially if I ever found out that both razors used the same blade! ... but, 50 Watts is 50 Watts, at least in all of this known universe!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 06:12:37 pm
content: Quote from: KludgeIt on March 06, 2016, 03:32:43 pmDid you measure if those 50w are actually there, or do you trust what counterfeit heating element says? Also, power rating does not make a good soldering iron by itself. I have a 60w firestick made in 1968 lying somewhere, but does the power rating make it a good soldering iron? If there is no good temperature transfer between the heater and the tip, and good a temperature control which decently senses an actual tip temperature, power rating is useless.

author: KludgeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 06:39:51 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 06, 2016, 06:12:37 pmAs I pointed out, in an earlier post, the Yihua with its' 132A ceramic elements IS ONLY 35 Watts, and I quite happily use if for most all the LED lighting, Arduino projects, power supplies, battery chargers, Field Strength Meters, stereos, boost/buck circuitry, flashlights, motion detectors, solar panels, amateur radio projects, etc.I have noticed that the Hakko clone is more watts, as expected.Now, if I get into major heavy work, ground lugs on chassis, DIN plugs, heavy copper/high-amp wire, etc., I have an old Weller soldering gun with a pistol grip, and that baby can solder sheet metal! ... or a butane fired, pocket iron, when in the field and away from power.... but, actual use and results are what determine my tools, not measurements and debates on the meaning of life, or "perceived benefits" ... AND, I am using a 26V @ 3.2A transformer on my Hakko, so I would expect that it is putting out a bit more than 50W, but a guess on my part.And, this early in the morning 10:40 AM, I am just looking at the empty Vodka bottle, from last night!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 01:24:17 am
content: Quote from: KludgeIt on March 06, 2016, 06:39:51 pmTherefore you even don't know if what you are claiming is true.QuoteWhy you still keep calling it "Hakko"? There is no a single Hakko part in it. And BTW, it's not ESD safe because the plastic used is usual crap, not proper static dissipative material.

author: KludgeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 04:48:26 am
content: Quote from: wraper on March 07, 2016, 01:24:17 amIf it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, flies like a duck, and has feathers ... I leave it to those, such as yourself, to speculate it is really a goat ...I'll simply call it by the name on it ... A HAKKO!... and, if you are that concerned about ESD, wipe it down with one of your wifes antistatic cloths she uses in the dryer, or to make it permanent, spray the case with a ESD paint ... I have never had a problem with static, myself.And, as far as "my claims", in reference to yours -- you kinda sound like the guy who was reading, and thought the light was too dim for him to read by, so he measured the voltage, amps, and light output of lamp, and found everything was within "ballpark" operating specs for the equipment. So then, he just went and got a brighter bulb to read by ... and if I need anything better than the Hakko to secure suitable soldering of components I am working with, I will do the same ... or just grab a higher wattage iron, if that is the problem.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 07:47:53 am
content: The difference is one duck is huge and fat, another is a scrawny little twig. You are pretending that as long as both of them are the ducks, there is no difference. Also, if you read the tread, those counterfeit heaters which pretend to be made by hakko, are obviously inferior.QuoteA lot of things can be written, example:

author: KludgeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 05:07:04 pm
content: Strangest thing is, you being angry with me, for your own words, claims, statements, failures, and ignorance.And, no, I see nothing "inferior" about the ~$1.00 50W ceramic heaters, or whether they are made by "THE GREAT GOD OF CHINESE JUNK", or "THE GREAT HAKKO GOD."50W is 50W ... and as I have pointed out, if someone supplies me with a unit, heater and tip made by THE GREAT HAKKO GOD, and I solder a board, or I use my equipment made by "THE GREAT GOD OF CHINESE JUNK", you, or no one, would ever know the difference -- despite the claims which might be made by the terminally insane.Indeed, using only common sense, and choosing HEAVY tips, 900M-T-1.6D, at a cost of 0.64 each, when purchased in single quantities, I see no difference in the actual performance of the unit made by the hakko god vs. the cheap chinese god.... and I don't need to measure it ... I believe my eyes and senses ... you simply need to make sure you have the RIGHT cheap element for your CHEAP stations ...Here is such a tip, since the tip is the single most important component:http://www.aliexpress.com/item/900M-T-Cusp-Series-Soldering-Oxygen-free-Copper-Replacement-Iron-Tip-For-Hakko-936/32514968228.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.2.EGAjEx&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_7,searchweb201644_1_505_506_503_504_10020_502_10014_10001_10002_10017_10005_10006_10003_10021_10004_10022_10018_10019,searchweb201560_9,searchweb1451318400_-1,searchweb1451318411_-1&btsid=19ae7640-a025-4ddb-8ecb-1162be6e7028If your A1321 element is a loose fit, shim the tip with a bit of 0.001+ copper shim stock, or if too tight a fit, ream the tip with a proper drill to secure snug fit.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 05:35:08 pm
content: QuoteLOL, for some reason Chinese watts usually are lower than in rest of the world. Maybe they live in different universe?And regardless if heater is on par with genuine stuff or not, Chinese clone tips are what really suck. They don't even come close in the heat transfer to the real hakko tips.Anyway, the power rating must be right as long as you believe in all what is written, no need to measure. In God we trust, amen.QuoteHave you ever tried a real deal to declare it so confidently?QuoteYou're on the wrong forum dude, should try audiophile forums.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 06:02:28 pm
content: Oh, you slapped together a few pieces of premade Chinese junk and declare being a $ 1 000 000 worth craftsman. Bye then

author: KludgeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 06:13:46 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 07, 2016, 06:02:28 pmTake care, and you are NOT INJURED by the door slapping your bum, on your way out ...

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2016, 01:15:04 am
content: KludgeIt spends money on upgrading his 936 clone. Gets told three times from different people it's not a good idea because there are better options out there. Gets told also far better performing stations can be made for a similar price. Doesn't believe that the Chinese could possibly lie about power ratings.Pretends he is cool by saying he is a heavy drinker (doesn't work, we aren't children). Implies his perception is better than scientific evidence (doesn't work, we all went to school). Argues everything anyone says as if he discovered fake 936 parts yesterday and noone could possibly know this already (this thread is from 2013). Fills 75% of his posts with bullshit thinking it adds substance (it doesn't).I know the Yihua 936 is the cheapest station out there and solders ok if you get a decent tip (good value if you ask me). But any money and time you pump into it above that, you might as well have brought a genuine Hakko 936 or FX-888D and not suffer broken heaters (clones) and bad mains wiring (Yihua) and thermal gap/transfer issues in the tip (clones) that among other problems comes with the territory.If you insist on arguing or telling others that building a cheap inferior clone is the right way to go, at least research the FM-2027 FM-2028 handle first then perhaps you will realize people were just giving you good advice and you knocked it all back.If you're happy with your setup then leave it at that. Noone wants to respond to you anymore because you come across as a retarded argumentative noob and interacting with you is pointless.You originally made some interesting posts based on your observation, but after that you quickly turn to insults, sarcasm and playground tactics to prove a point. You will get no respect here from me or anyone else until you learn that others have a valid opinion and can accept that engineers are focused on price, performance and rational debate without straw man arguments.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2016, 02:18:06 am
content: Quote from: KludgeIt on March 08, 2016, 02:12:38 amAre you 12 yo? Drinking vodka is illegal under 21.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2016, 02:20:28 am
content: Quote from: KludgeIt on March 08, 2016, 02:18:28 amSays the one who mentioned my wife, mother and brother.QuoteLike asking for actual measurements.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2016, 06:46:55 am
content: Topic locked and someone given 3 days to get over his self declared hang over.