Don't swallow coin cells. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 05:18:47 am
content: Very graphic point made here.https://youtu.be/_mnyfQuymd4

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 05:27:36 am
content: Quick, somebody start a new challenge. Tide pods are so yesterday.

author: llkiwi2006
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 06:50:22 am
content: Is this some kind of internal training video? Unlisted video with 82 views

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 07:19:22 am
content: My sister is an A&E registrar and they have someone in once a month at least who has done this. Interestingly it’s more pub bets than children.And most of the time they just give you some antacids to stop it corroding and X-ray you to see where it gets to. If it passes the stomach they send you home and wait for it to come out naturally. If it gets stuck they go in with an endoscope and get it out.Also depends on the cell type. Lithium is likely the worse. They establish the cell type and whether or not it was charged.Choking is the higher risk.Amazing the weird conversations I have!

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 07:27:08 am
content: It's a dual edged sword. On one hand, you don't want people to die from being stupid, but on the other hand, if someone is stupid enough to do this, perhaps they are beyond help and better of dead. It's a toss up really.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 08:36:24 am
content: Having not completed the experiment myself, I won't offer a definitive opinion one way or another. But I will say this, unless the battery contents leaked, I find it difficult to see how this kind of tissue damage could occur. Aside from the obvious choking hazard, in most reported cases, batteries simply pass through the body normally without causing damage. I think I'll take this video with a grain of salt.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 08:38:20 am
content: It is a pretty low budget experiment. It should not be too hard to procure a battery and two slices of ham.That ham is probably full of salt, so I'm also not sure if it is representative of human tissue.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 08:39:29 am
content: I say this is one for Dave to mythbust!

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 08:43:47 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on February 02, 2018, 08:39:29 amI'm not sure Dave wants to step into that kind of territory. People are stupid and there are some out there which will take a "busted" result as "batteries are safe to eat".Let's leave the EE to Dave and medicine to doctors and scientists.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 08:48:51 am
content: Quote from: llkiwi2006 on February 02, 2018, 06:50:22 amMinistry of Business, Innovation and Employment, NZ gOVERMENT. a new standard on battery saftey has been launched in NZ. ( becuase thats our top priority of thigns to fix. )

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 08:53:33 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on February 02, 2018, 08:48:51 amSo it is a government thing. Disregard for sure, until there is some independent evidence.

author: Blocco
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 09:03:23 am
content: The problems occur when they get stuck...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37410343

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 09:09:04 am
content: Shitty parenting is the root cause of children doing this. Treat the cause not the symptom.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 09:30:26 am
content: I swallowed two cents as a kid and was immediately rushed to hospital, the doctor said it wasn't worth an operation and to come back if there was any change.

author: llkiwi2006
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 09:55:52 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on February 02, 2018, 08:48:51 amHmm I live in NZ and I haven't heard of this ... I guess I should read the news more (but arrg nz herald is so painful to read)Seems like it's just the government issuing like a warning type of thing, so I doubt if much is going to change (the chinese manufacturers are not going to care).

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 10:24:39 am
content: A good but old (1986) paper that lays out the issues in a pretty straightforward way.https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://adc.bmj.com/content/archdischild/61/4/321.full.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjs-8ODgIfZAhWEXrwKHS3iCOgQFjANegQIDRAB&usg=AOvVaw3kN6duYTdeHVp1Izw5zM66Edit, try to fix link

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 10:26:56 am
content: According tothis article, 15 deaths and 100 serious problems in the US in 10 years, so definitely a nontrivial issue.The problem is that it wouldn't occur to most people that something which is normally harmless could do serious damage, and that a battery is significantly different to other random objects that a child might eat.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 10:37:09 am
content: It seems to me that there are three possible scenarios....The battery:1. passes through2. causes an obstruction3. leaksThe last two - while perhaps a low risk of occurrence - have high impact.So - a question: Would you find the equivalent risk and impact in a piece of electrical equipment acceptable?

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 10:47:26 am
content: I am pretty sure the biggest risk is if the coin cell lodges then perforates the gut locally; if stuck in the oesophagus - times as short as 2 hours. A perforated oesophagus leaks into the thorax - causing a peritonitis like condition - but in the chest. Not good. Comments that once in the stomach and esp if it goes into the small bowel - al will come to pass - usually!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 10:50:34 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 02, 2018, 10:26:56 amLets put this into perspective1. That's only 0.13% of all cases resulted in death2. Only 0.84% of cases that resulted in serious problems.3. That is 0.00036% of the population swallowed batteries every year4. That is 0.0000446% of the population die from swallowing batteries every year5 That is 0.000468% of the population have serious problems from it every year.Now there's a 100000x multiplier for this thanks to the media and press and the death of a toddler who wasn't being supervised properly by their parent.Stupid deaths are stupid deaths.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 10:58:21 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 02, 2018, 10:50:34 amThe primary issue is not the statistics, or quality of parenting, but the fact that most people don't realise the potential danger.It is idiotic to suggest that exposing a child to something that they had no idea was dangerous is bad parenting.Few parents would leave a kid with a box of matches, or a bottle of pills or a sharp knife as they know that is dangerous.Most parents would not be aware that many everyday gadgets and toys contain something that could cause death or serious injury when swallowed, so increasing awareness of this is the most important thing.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 11:30:53 am
content: But fundamentally we can't prevent stupid happening even with all the infographics and awareness in the world.Think of the poor soul who was the template for this. How did we not anticipate it? should we tell people not to piss on overhead lines? Should there have been a sign on the bridge?Common sense has to take over somewhere. With children, parents should be vigilant, competent and educate their children. (and yes I am a parent and no I haven't killed any of them)

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 11:48:07 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 02, 2018, 11:30:53 amISTR Mythbusters busted this one, certainly in the case of peeing on rails as the stream breaks up very quickly.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 11:49:47 am
content: 3rd rail isn't 25Kv

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 12:38:11 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 02, 2018, 09:09:04 amI guess you don’t have kids? Small children will put anything and everything in their mouths. You literally can’t watch them every second of the day. All it takes is for a calculator to get knocked on the floor and the coin cells pop out when you turn your back for 30 seconds to answer the door. Boom, they’ve just eaten the batteries.But I’m sure you’d never be such a shitty parent.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 12:43:16 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 02, 2018, 11:49:47 amTrue, but it's going to be further away, and have a lower cross section to target. 25kv will only jump an inch or two.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 12:59:24 pm
content: That might be enough between the drops after a few beersNot going to test it of course

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 01:09:52 pm
content: I've seen videos of the insulators on pylons being pressure washed but I think the use de-ionised water for that. You'd probably have to 'dilute' yourself down a lot!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 01:21:19 pm
content: Hahaha. Probably have to reach near the LD50 of water to do that.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 01:35:22 pm
content: That's the main content of Ads for them over here now - there's more 'keep away from children' than actual promotion.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 01:55:37 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 02, 2018, 11:48:07 amMy father told me about accident in a locomotive repair company where he worked. One of his colleagues peed on an old locomotive battery (100+V), was some unforgettable experience for him.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 02:08:28 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 02, 2018, 10:50:34 amMost of those batteries are eaten by children. And if you think this is easily preventable, you're wrong. You could never think about all of the possibilities how children may get dangerous stuff somewhere. It may be just harmless clock sitting on the desk. 1 in 100 chance that your child may receive a serious injury or die if battery was swallowed is no joke.QuoteYour calculations are wrong, how it turns out 0.13% vs 0.84% suddenly becomes a 10X difference when talking about all of population. And those numbers are yearly, not a lifetime + for most of those happen with children, therefore numbers go up a lot if you look for children and not all population in average.EDIT, BTW didn't it came to your mind that those swallowed battery numbers are not that high because people are told keep stuff away from children so parents can prevent it from happening? And if battery was swallowed, then educated to seek medical help immediately and not just wait.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 02:12:10 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 02, 2018, 08:38:20 amBlood and most body fluids, including intracellular and intercellular ones, are 0.9% salt (9 grams per litre, so called 'normal' saline solution). Those that aren't have a similar osmotic pressure or are on the other side of membranes that actively pump ions and other solutes across them (e.g urine and the kidneys).It's no accident that the level of salt that tastes 'right' in foodstuffs is very close to the magic 0.9% 'normal' level. For instance typical bread dough has 2g salt, 100gm flour and 70 grams water for an overall level of 1.16% salt.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 02:27:49 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 02, 2018, 08:36:24 amOne word: electrolysis.Notice how on the video the damage is occurring in a ring, between the anode and cathode of the battery. Anybody who's done any basic electrochemistry ought to know that electrolysis of a solution is going to induce some profound chemical changes, not least of which will be, pretty much by definition, a lot of redox reactions. If nothing else, it's going to change the pH at the electrodes and the body is pretty fussy about keeping almost everything very close to pH 7.4, to within a few hundredths of a pH point - seehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid%E2%80%93base_homeostasisfor the basics.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 03:08:36 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 02, 2018, 10:58:21 amI would argue that the relatively small number of causalities from this (at least for the US figures that have been bandied about) are an indication that the opposite is true, and that people have been quite good at keeping coin cells out of the hands (and mouths) of their offspring. That suggests that people recognise these as a hazard at least as well as they do other more 'classic' hazards like pills and bleach.The source quoted previously has "Children under the age of 6 swallowed batteries in a reported 11,940 incidents between 2005 and 2014" - so that's 1194 incidents of swallowing a year. By comparison, the overall figures for poisoning are way, way higher - in 2016 138,904 children under 6 were recorded as being exposed to poisoning from "Cosmetics and Personal Care Products", with something like 600k+ recorded cases of exposure overall of under 6 year olds. (see:https://www.poison.org/poison-statistics-national)Actually, I suspect that most parents with half a brain cell recognise "small, shinny and swallow-able" as a persistent, everyday, category of hazard in the hands of small children, just based on how fast I see the average parent move when they see that an infant has got their sticky little paws on something that would fit the description. "George, don't play with that - let me have it - play with the kitty* instead".*Kitty -Felis silvestris catus- once described to me by a biologist as a "Long backed, retractile clawed, killing machine".

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 01:20:49 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on February 02, 2018, 08:48:51 amThat's OK, Australia is tackling the "big issues" too. As of this month, any medication containing Codeine is now prescription only. Why you may ask? Because 0.011% of the population are addicted to the drug. So those requiring the medication for chronic pain etc... now have to go to the doctor every time they need a prescription filled.Rather than solving the problem with the minority of the population, by forcing them to hand over ID to keep track of how much they are buying, which is a system that exists right now by the way and the data is available to pharmacists in real-time, they'd rather put more of a strain on our GP's.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 01:34:06 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 02, 2018, 02:08:28 pmActually, that's not entirely true. A significant portion of those admitted to hospital after swallowing coin cell batteries are actually older people. The most common scenario is when they are changing batteries in various devices (hearing aids, remote controls etc...) they hold the battery in their mouth while pulling out the old one. (Even I've been guilty of that when changing BIOS/CMOS batteries.)There are many studies all over the world relating to this issue. One particularUS evaluationfound that in a 4 year period, only 22 instances of children were admitted to hospital following the onset of symptoms. None were fatal. The evaluation also concluded that in 90% of cases where coin cell batteries were swallowed, the battery simply passed through the GI tract with no problems.