What scope to buy under $1500 (1360€) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: psysc0rpi0n
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2015, 11:54:25 pm
content: Hello everyone...Hope this is the correct place to post this thread!I'm looking for the best scope I can get for about 1360€ or $1500.I've been looking to some Teledyne Lecroy as WaveAce 2014 and also Rigol MSO2102A.The usage for the scope, for now, It's a basic usage as I'm a student. But in the future I may need it to Electronics and Telecomms area!I'm still a noob and have no knowledge about what to choose. That's why I'm asking help!However I've been told that, if possible, to pick one with isolated channels/floating channels/high common mode channels... Looks like this feature is given several names.Thanks for any advice!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 12:09:41 am
content: Don't buy the Waveace. It's a rebadged Siglent which can be bought for around 1/3 of the price Lecroy is asking.Oscilloscopes with floating channels are very rare and not cheap. Better invest in differential probes.

author: psysc0rpi0n
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 12:34:50 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 06, 2015, 12:09:41 amWhat about Rigol???

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 12:56:40 am
content: Rigol DS1054z, no MSO but you still have over $1000 to get a good logic analyzer and an ARB signal gen.

author: drakke
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 01:20:57 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on March 06, 2015, 12:56:40 amYou really believe the DS1054z is equivalent to a $1500 oscilloscope?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 01:41:08 am
content: Quote from: drakke on March 06, 2015, 01:20:57 amYou are right, just equivalent to a $1000 one, my suggestion was because of the OP needs, he can get an HDG2002B with the DS1054Z and still have half of the money, both the scope and the arb signal gen are hackable for higher speeds.Edit: Correction, upgraded to 100MHz with all options unlocked it's past $1500, so I guess the answer to your question is: Yes, a DS1054z is equivalent to a $1500 oscilloscope

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 01:49:35 am
content: I wouldn't get a seperate logic analyser. Most have limited samplerates and memory depth so better get an MSO with protocol decoding. There are scopes out there which could fit the budget but you'd have to put up with limitations in the firmware.

author: dmytty
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 01:52:31 am
content: If you want to float the inputs, you need a differential scope...something like the Picoscope 3425. This is a USB scope but it's a REAL tool, just very bandwidth limited.https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/3425/picoscope-3425-overviewOtherwise, if you wish to test your luck with Siglent perfecting their firmware, it's the Siglent SDS2204. 200 Mhz bandwidth and 2 GS/s. Impressive hardware. Please note that you get a free bandwidth upgrade from the SDS2104 to SDS2204, and a few other goodies as well given that this is the MSO option.http://www.tequipment.net/Siglent/SDS2104/Digital-Oscilloscopes/If you just want to get your toes wet, I heartily recommend the Analog Discovery. For you as a student, it's $100 + some probes ($15) and an adapter board ($19). But don't take my word for it, take Dave's review.http://www.eevblog.com/2014/12/13/eevblog-692-digilent-analog-discovery-review/

author: economist
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 01:55:45 am
content: $1,500 seems like a hole in the new scope market -- maybe used at $1,500 is the way to go. Take something like an Agilent 2024. It's a material step up from the Rigol 1054z, but it's over $3K with any options at all. I guess it all depends on the application, but I would go with the Rigol 1054z and use the remaining funds on other things.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 01:57:50 am
content: Actually, the integrated sig gen in the DS/MSO1000Z-S is far more dependable and reliable than that of the HDG2002B. Regretfully, the HDG2002B is little more than a toy.If the OP is a student, they may not want a ton of test equipment, maybe an integrated solution would be more useful to them, eg DS1074Z-S or MSO1074Z-S?The pricepoint the OP has given is a bit of a no-man's land, you could get to 200MHz but it would only be 2 channels.For isolated inputs you could buy a handheld scope, but there again the price point is a bit empty.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 02:05:10 am
content: MSO1074z-S sounds like a winner if he wants an integrated solution, and still have $500 left for a decent DMM and Power Supply

author: dmytty
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 02:13:46 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on March 06, 2015, 01:57:50 amThe Siglent SDS2104 that I linked to is automatically software upgraded (by Siglent under warranty) to become the SDS2204 with 200 Mhz bandwidth @ 2 GS/s and 110,000 waveforms/sec. It's4 channels and includes Logic Analyzer + AWG + Power Analyzer + Protocol decoding.Price $1414.55.The Siglent is what I'm spending my money on. Way better than the 1074z-s which is only 70 MHz, half the sampling rate, 1/4 the waveforms, and requires lotsa extra spending to get the unlocked features (over $1600 total).

author: Rubi Han
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 02:16:07 am
content: Quote from: psysc0rpi0n on March 05, 2015, 11:54:25 pmLet me introduce you something new and innovative;I recommend you our Micsig touch tablet oscilloscope TO102A within your budget. Multi-touch, no any buttons and knobs; Smaller and lighter.- Bandwidth: 100MHz- Channel: 2- Sampling rate: 2 GSa/s- Memory depth: 18Mpts(Standard) 90Mpts(Option)- Capture rate: 50,000wfms/s (Standard) 500,000wfms/s(Option)- Display: 10.1'' touch screen, 1024*600 resolution- 15,000mAh built-in battery for option, up to 8 hours battery lifeVery portable; And you may obtain new function in future thr software or firmware upgrade which traditional one is very limited on this. For more, pls visitwww.micsig.comAlso here is the video you can learn more about Micsig producthttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKnFjWwiVS_t27knPfFWLWgRubihanzuncheng@micsig.com

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 02:22:07 am
content: I take it you have hand tools, power supply and all the other stuff that goes on a bench?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 02:23:15 am
content: @Rubi,Without an independent review it's going to be hard to convince what the Micsig is capable off. You should consider sending one to Dave and/or Mike for a review.Also that will burn his money with nothing left for the signal gen and LA

author: dmytty
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 02:25:41 am
content: Quote from: Rubi Han on March 06, 2015, 02:16:07 amThis is a nice product. Quite unique. When there is a USB 3.0 output, then it becomes even more powerful.However, I would be a bit concerned about tapping the wrong buttons...but your GUI probably solves that.

author: dmytty
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 02:38:05 am
content: Quote from: psysc0rpi0n on March 05, 2015, 11:54:25 pmIf you're in the EU, you could also look at a the USB based Handyscope. They have really great hardware and their software is top notch. You can link their units together so you can start with 2 channel and buy another unit (up to 10 units linked) should that be required. My personal favorite as USB hardware goes. They have differential / floating units as well as single ended.http://www.tiepie.com/en/products/Oscilloscopes/Handyscope_HS4-DIFF€ 800+ for 4 channel differential versions. A real bargain if that's what you need ... 12-16 bits but a bit hampered by a lower sampling rate (50 MS/s) that's not well matched to the 50 Mhz bandwidth (10:1 ratio is best if you really want to clearly resolve).

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 06:41:14 am
content: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191499736417

author: psysc0rpi0n
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 09:03:42 am
content: Thanks everyone...I'm impressed with the feedback.I'm also impressed with the amount of solutions that were suggested.However, I like the idea of a traditional scope and I'm thinking about Rigol DS2012A-S. And yes, I have to sacrifice some features because the price.This one is just a bit over the limit of my budget and I think I can push it until there, which is 1370€.What I need to know is if there is any better option, considering at least the same features of Rigol's, and of course, the price!

author: JohnnyBerg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 09:32:40 am
content: Quote from: psysc0rpi0n on March 05, 2015, 11:54:25 pmWow .. rich student then. When I was a student, I could not afford a $1500 scope.QuoteWhat is the point in getting a $1500 scope, with features that you will not understand?Buy a used $100 scope (with delayed timebase etc), and after you know for a 100% how to use that, you won't need any advise in what scope to buy next.p.s. as being such a rich student, you probably throw the $100 scope away, however you could try to sell it again

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 09:47:31 am
content: Quote from: psysc0rpi0n on March 05, 2015, 11:54:25 pmWhy $1500, and not $1000 or $3000? You seem to be going about this the wrong way, or you are not spending your own money on the scope.

author: psysc0rpi0n
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 10:24:49 am
content: Quote from: JohnnyBerg on March 06, 2015, 09:32:40 amI'm not a rich student... There's no such thing... If I was rich, I wouldn't be studying.I'm not going to buy a $100 scope to play around for a few months and then buy another one to use for the rest of the time!Quote from: JohnnyBerg on March 06, 2015, 09:32:40 amThe point is to buy a scope that has some useful functions for the future... I don't need the best of the best but I also don't want the king of crap!

author: psysc0rpi0n
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 10:27:52 am
content: Quote from: dadler on March 06, 2015, 09:47:31 amThat is the budget I have... I have more than $1000 but no more than $1500. So, Why should I buy a $1000 scope if I can afford a $1500???And why does it matter where the money comes from??? It could be robbed and still you wouldn't need to worry about to give an advice!!Anyway, I still need advices... Realistic ones with the conditions I have. At least the budget... Advice me on a scope for my budget!Thanks

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 10:32:26 am
content: did you see that link from Keysight's ebay store? imo it's a good price for what it offers

author: JohnnyBerg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 10:36:28 am
content: Quote from: psysc0rpi0n on March 06, 2015, 10:24:49 amHow do you decide what useful functions you need, if you don't know what a scoop can do?The people at Tektronix (or companies in the same league) won't agree with you that their products are the "king of crab" !

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 10:46:37 am
content: Quote from: psysc0rpi0n on March 06, 2015, 10:27:52 amWell, I can afford a $30,000 scope but I do not need one. Why shouldn't I go buy a $30,000 scope right now? Because I weigh the value of money vs the functional value of the purchase within the context of my needs and skills. A cost vs benefit analysis.Your very-specific budget leads me to believe that you are not spending money that you have earned, because you are not trying to make a cost vs benefit analysis. You are essentially asking "what is the 'best' scope I can buy for $1500", with no supplied criteria on 'best' (which is contextual). Others are trying to do the cost-benefit analysis for you: that since you are a student and seemingly do not know what technical requirements you are trying to satisfy (specific use cases, bandwidth needs, decoding capabilities, etc), an entry-level scope well under $1500 will serve you quite well. The Rigol DS1054Z is a ton of scope for a great price, and will almost certainly meet your needs and more.Why spend more money if you do not need to? Is the cash literally burning a hole in your pocket?

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 11:03:32 am
content: I asked for one for review last year and was told no, so at the moment we have something that we don't know whether it is good or bad, so we have to assume it is bad.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 11:09:47 am
content: why are you folks arguing about the cash he has available? I also think it's really inappropriate to pull some analysis out your hats as to whether or not it is his own earned money.Is it not obvious enough that the person is just very inexperienced and therefore asking for help (about choosing an oscilloscope, not about the other stuff)It is probably smartest to get a cost effective value range scope to use for now. 1300 EUR should get you a pretty good scope. Or a scope and a power supply and a meter, if you look at the Rigols.I'm not sure it is worth it to think about brand names at this price range unless you can get something used. LeCroy, Tek and Agilent are just too expensive for what they offer compared to Rigol around 1000 EUR.Don't think about what you will use "later". When that time comes you will earn enough to buy something that suits your needs better.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 11:13:21 am
content: Quote from: dmytty on March 06, 2015, 02:38:05 amUSB scopes are crap. At some point you will want real knobs and high waveform update rates.

author: McBryce
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 12:31:07 pm
content: Hi psysc0rpi0n,what type of electronics are you studying or intending to do? There's been several suggestions / recommendations for MSO / Seperate LA although you never mentioned needing this and unless you are studing "Retro computer electronics", you will probably have very little use for an LA from what you've said. You do mention Telecomms, what type? What sort of bandwidths to you envisage needing to test? Are these high-speed optical systems or are we talking something like LS-CAN? What type of signal decoding might you need? Will it be used for lab work or will you need it to be portable (luggable). Regarding Isolation. I'd recommend getting an seperate differential isolator rather than looking for a scope that offers this internally (due to price). PC scopes have their advantages, but if you need to travel with the scope, then you'll be lugging a laptop, 2x PSUs, the scope and test leads around with you - A compact portable "real" scope is tidier and easier to travel with.McBryce.

author: psysc0rpi0n
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 01:36:47 pm
content: Quote from: Neganur on March 06, 2015, 10:32:26 amI've seen it but I must buy within the EU or I'll have trouble at custom border services!!!

author: psysc0rpi0n
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 01:41:57 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyBerg on March 06, 2015, 10:36:28 amI know that but you know what I mean, right?If no scope was crappy, then there would be only one universal scope. Period! But there are some scopes with better quality and others with lower quality, right?What I mean is that I don't want a cheap scope neither a too expensive scope. A very cheap scope will have a lot of limitations and a very expensive scope, well, it's expensive...So I want a scope that can handle my needs that will be in the Electronics and Telecomms area! I've already said this before in my posts! And yes, I don't know what is the features that I might need in this area because I'm just starting in this world, and also that's the reason I'm asking help here!

author: psysc0rpi0n
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 01:51:33 pm
content: Quote from: dadler on March 06, 2015, 10:46:37 amIf you can afford a 30 grant scope, then go for it! Why not? You'll probably have all situations covered.But I can't afford over $1500 or so. And once more, don't bother where the money is coming from! I am a student but also a worker. I get up at 6:30am and work since 8:00am 'till 5:pm. At 6:30pm I have classes 'till 12:00pm. So, don't come over me on that!If you still want to help on advising me on a scope until $1500 with 2 or 4 channel (no matter) that can be used in Electronics and Telecomms area, I'll appreciate. Otherwise, you don't need to reply just to tell me I'm not spending my money over and overThanks

author: psysc0rpi0n
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 01:53:37 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on March 06, 2015, 11:03:32 amI'm sorry but I couldn't understand your answer. What are you referring to???

author: psysc0rpi0n
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 01:55:37 pm
content: Quote from: Neganur on March 06, 2015, 11:09:47 amThat's my point... Just advise me what the best I can get for my budget and usage area. Anyone has to judge me for the money I have available and where does it comes from!I just need some advice keeping in mind 2 or 3 conditions!

author: psysc0rpi0n
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 01:57:15 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 06, 2015, 11:13:21 amSomeone will come on you because you're saying that almost all brands has crap scopes and they (the brand owners doesn't agree with you... Well, lool).Ok, so can you find anything not USB and having in mind my 2 or 3 conditions??? I would appreciate!

author: psysc0rpi0n
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 02:06:25 pm
content: Quote from: McBryce on March 06, 2015, 12:31:07 pmOk, I understand your point and all of you that have been replying...The problem is that my future is still not decided but my intention would be to work with cell phones companies, internet/cell phones providers companies, but I would also like to work in the micro-controllers area or small electronics area. I mean to work with integrated circuits, small electronics, and all this can eventually be integrated in telecommunications market!!! I can't tell my specific needs because I'm still not working in the area. I can't be more specific at the moment!

author: N8AUM
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 03:09:50 pm
content: Which ever scope you end up with there willalwaysbe be times you wished you got the other one because of the limitations of your scope. My 1st scope was a Heathkit. Than I wished I had DC input coupled, than I wanted 2 ch, than I wanted delayed sweep, than dual time bases, than 4 ch, then digital... It never ends. If you new more specifics on what you will be measuring than finding the right scope for the job would be easier.Good luck !

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 03:16:15 pm
content: Quote from: psysc0rpi0n on March 06, 2015, 01:36:47 pmwell, it's not "trouble", it's just VAT, and Keysight handles it all for you.

author: BlueBill
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 03:23:40 pm
content: Buy a DS1054z, use it till you need a more powerful scope and sell it or keep it as a second / portable scope. The 2 channel DS2000x series have a lower noise floor, go to 300MHz, USB decoding option, 8" screen and a handful of other enhancements over the DS1054z but IMHO unless you need those features now start with the cheap & cheerful DS1054z.Adding a good multimeter (Fluke 97V) or cheap (UT61E), signal generator & bench supply makes it easy to blow through a budget.If you do a YouTube channel you'll need scads of gear to behind you like Dave has.

author: psysc0rpi0n
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 03:39:27 pm
content: Ok, I think I got enough opinions...I'm still thinking about 1054 or 2102A-S, but pobably I'm going for the last model!Thanks every one!Best regardsPsy

author: BlueBill
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 03:47:49 pm
content: Quote from: psysc0rpi0n on March 06, 2015, 03:39:27 pmI bought the DS1074z-S and here's my two cents.Con: The signal generator is limited in functionality compared to the same price difference stand alone. e.g. no sweep generator. It doesn't have a numeric keypad but a slightly sloppy dial it in.Pro: It's built in and takes up zero workbench real estate. It's rated 25MHz vs 20MHz of the baseline Rigol SG.Meh: The signal generator software for Windows only is pretty awful IMHO.PS both scopes are "upgradeable" but seems the DIY option on the 2000A is not straight forward. Not sure if anything changed in the DS1054z with the latest firmware update.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 05:35:17 pm
content: Quote from: psysc0rpi0n on March 06, 2015, 01:57:15 pmIf you have more money to spend my first choice would be Lecroy's Wavesurfer 3000 series with MSO option. But expect to spend around $6k. Otherwise a Keysight 3000 series but they have very short memory so the value for money isn't that great. I wish I could recommend Siglent's SDS2000 series but the firmware just isn't ready.

author: JohnnyBerg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 05:59:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 06, 2015, 05:35:17 pmCom'on. For a student, who hasn't decided yet if he wants to go in electronics or telecom?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 06:15:44 pm
content: Why hold yourself back?

author: Adal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 06:34:37 pm
content: For a student(electronic maybe?) a portable scope like the Siglent I recommend. I prefer isolated channel if you work in power electronics. Why ? You go to work, and to school and do the home work. You need a scope can take to every place and do the work, 100 MHz are fine, but 60 MHz are enough for the school.I have 3 tek, TDS1000, THS720A and TEK 2225. I prefer the THS720A.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 12:11:34 pm
content: Quote from: psysc0rpi0n on March 05, 2015, 11:54:25 pmFirst, forget the WaveAce. If you want to know why just search the forum, but in short is an overpriced piece of crap. It's LeCroy's half-assed attempt to offer something in the low end, but unlike their other scopes (which are great) the WaveAce totally sucks.As to what scope to buy: you stated that you're probably aiming towards telecoms and more advanced electronics, which means at some point in the future you'll very likely need a more advanced scope. The problem is that your current budget of €1360 doesn't get you anything close to that, so that means whatever you're buying today will become insufficient in the future anyways.Just forget scopes with USB scopes or handheld scopes. Both come with pretty poor performance specifications (except for some few very expensive models), and especially for handheld scopes you pay a premium for portability. USB scopes can be great in certain applications (i.e. automated testing, where we use some PicoScopes) but as general purpose scopes they simply suck, and the need for a Windows PC and having no physical controls sucks as well.Therefore my recommendation would be to limit your spending and go with the Rigol DS1054z or DS1104z. The reason is that it's cheap, it's a good scope for a beginner, and it gives you four channels which you may not think as desirable now but the chance is high you will apreciate later. At the moment, there simply is no better entry level scope on the market, and there's very little sense in spending more than the €380 for a DS1104z as even if you shell out your full budget of €1300 you still won't get anything that will suffice for more advanced work later on.Save the remaining money (or invest it in other tools you'll need), and when the day comes your requirements have exceeded the DS1104z's capabilities then just sell it on and get whatever you need then.

author: psysc0rpi0n
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 02:40:46 pm
content: Ok, maybe I'm for the MSO1104Z-S...

author: JohnnyBerg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 02:52:49 pm
content: Quote from: psysc0rpi0n on March 07, 2015, 02:40:46 pmMaybe you're trolling ..

author: psysc0rpi0n
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 04:37:45 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyBerg on March 07, 2015, 02:52:49 pmMaybe I don't need your opinion any longer!!!I might even consider the MSO1104Z that's cheaper... Around 700€ plus shipping costs If I don't buy in my country!