Car companies stop production due to semi shortage - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 07:17:04 pm
content: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/car-makers-halt-production-due-semiconductor-shortageWho would have thought it.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 11:28:38 pm
content: Really? Thought nobody is buying cars today, so nowhere to park and store, and somehow they need to slow down the production

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 11:32:39 pm
content: Audi just had their best quarter ever, due to recovery in China.Meanwhile, those parts of the world that can't manage something as simple as a virus outbreak are still locked down!

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 11:27:17 am
content: You would have thought that the car manufacturers and those tier 1 suppliers would have huge forward orders for parts.Also, there can't be that many IC's shared between cars and mobile phones (temperature ratings?) - and anything that is shared, you'd have thought would be locked into a multiyear PO, even if just for obsolescence reasons.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 02:18:11 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on January 18, 2021, 11:27:17 amMobile chips also have to deal with high temperatures due to manufacturers skimping on the heatsinking or not having enough room for a good heatsink in the first place.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 05:43:17 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on January 18, 2021, 11:27:17 amApparently what happened is that auto makers had previously lowered their order forecasts due to the COVID crisis, and were caught by surprise by the strong recovery/upturn in China. The silicon manufacturers apparently need significant lead times for big orders.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 06:11:43 pm
content: The pandemic has increased lead times with many part, not just semiconductors. There is also less room for air-freight available and the time it takes to get parts can very quite a bit (e.g. customs can slow down in some places) and there may be a waiting line for air freight. It only takes a critical small part to stop production.Cars an mobile computers usually don't compete directly for the same chip, but they may be produced in the same fab.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 06:32:39 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on January 18, 2021, 11:27:17 amThere may not be many automotive qualified parts used in other applications, but there is also a very limited number of plants with automotive qualification that can make suitable parts. Not only can you only source parts from a handful of semiconductor vendors, each of those vendors may only have one or two fabs qualified to make the relevant parts. What seems odd about this news is the semiconductor vendors and car makers are locked in such a deadly embrace they usually have long term commitments to each other. That means only an unexpected demand for a certain model of car, or a serious problem at a particular qualified fab, can create supply problems.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 06:51:15 pm
content: I don't buy it - I think there's more to this.The contracts that are between the car companies and the tier 1's are going to be solid, so are the contracts between the semiconductor firms and the tier 1's. Unlikely to be a 2nd source for these IC's, and whilst the wafers might be on the same lines as mobile phone processors, the packaging/test certainly isn't.Wonder if this is related to the AKM fire in October? This seems to have had knock-on effects with GPS module makers (U-blox, Telit).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 06:56:56 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on January 18, 2021, 06:51:15 pmThe reports about that are also mysterious. They say it was a wooden building, so it wasn't a fab or assembly and test plant. So, it must have been something like a warehouse. JIT is all about not keeping a whole lot in warehouses, so wiping out stock doesn't cause the long term shortages reports have been predicting.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 07:01:16 pm
content: Some wooden building. Burnt for three days.https://www.stereonet.co.uk/news/stock-disruptions-expected-as-akm-factory-in-japan-burnshttps://petapixel.com/2020/12/07/sony-parts-supply-shortage-may-indicate-akm-factory-fire-directly-impacting-camera-industry/

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 07:56:56 pm
content: Quote from: olkipukki on January 17, 2021, 11:28:38 pmIt's actually the exact opposite. Cars are selling like hot cakes at the moment, at least in US and Canada, so manufacturers can't build them fast enough. I've ordered a new car back in October, and it still hasn't arrived. I also happen to work with plants of one of major car manufacturers, and they are also fully booked and sometimes have to work extra shifts to catch up with production plans.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 08:06:28 pm
content: 20 years from now : milk companies stop production because of semiconductor shortage

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 08:36:59 pm
content: Apparently it's a shortage of 8"/200mm wafer equipment due to record demand. Some say the push over the edge is caused by the pandemic upping demand for laptops, gaming consoles etc. Although the industry migrated to larger 12"/300mm fab, the old tech remains popular and cheap equipment has all been scooped up.Many are hiking up prices, analog included and it will continue for past 2Q 2021.https://semiengineering.com/200mm-demand-surges/

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 09:04:14 pm
content: maybe smaller fabs and more decentralization now?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 10:23:53 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on January 18, 2021, 09:04:14 pmThings are already very decentralised, but fabs aren't going to get any smaller without a breakthrough in their design and construction.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 11:00:58 pm
content: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-11/missing-chips-snarl-car-production-at-factories-worldwideMore info.I think I get it. About 40% of a car's price is electronics nowadays, and they are sold with hair thin margins. They cannot afford to pay extra for that electronics. Meanwhile they make a new phone for 1200 EUR, and people will stand in line in front of the stores to get it.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 09:09:06 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 18, 2021, 11:00:58 pmIf semiconductors are now 40% of a car's price (skeptical - perhaps 40% of the BOM, but a huge part of the price of the car is the R&D, tooling, labour and investment in the factories).Ford was basically a steel producer, most car companies these days would be happiest just renting out their badges. If the semiconductor value in a car keeps on rising, you will basically be buying a TSMC with an AUDI logo.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 04:26:22 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on January 19, 2021, 09:09:06 amSemiconductor and software value can only keep going up, as cars become technological masterpieces with self driving AI, advanced sensors, and the like.The 'basics' of four wheels, a chassis, and some furniture will also get more advanced, but this is on a slower curve.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 04:32:04 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on January 18, 2021, 07:56:56 pmyes, people don't want or can't use public transport so they buy a car instead

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 04:46:29 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on January 19, 2021, 04:32:04 pmLook on the bright side - a glut of cheap used cars for the cheapskates, when they all come off lease!

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 04:50:52 pm
content: Well, what sane person likes to travel in the crowded public transport these days, where half of the idiots can't even wear the mask properly? Anyway, that is an offtopic and an only partial explanation, why cars are still the no.1 in personal transport. Especially when travel by car is at times significantly cheaper and significantly more comfortable, than the public transport.And, I thought I've read somewhere recently, that the cause of shortages were due to the automotive industry. And before the general shortage of the semicondutors came, I've seen at least shortage of ST-made stuff, that was (at least at that time) thought to be caused by some strikes in France?

author: Mazo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 08:44:45 pm
content: Worked for amajorplayer in the automotive electronics business.Don't ever dismiss the human factor.Short story:A cluster project in production for years,everything going according to plan,with the numbers to be produced known for years.A year+ left to EOL of the product(some tens of K units,if I remember correctly).A pretty simple IC(protected high side switch,the mosfet+extras kind of thingy) goes out of stock,not to be produced anymore.BIG problem,emails flying everywhere,how such a reputed IC manufacturer of whom we buy milions of ICs every year can do such a thing without notice(just the normal corporative stuff).When the IC manufacturer in question was asked "WTF" they simply pointed us to the emails that somebody in my company(the person responsible to keep track of these things) received for years(every 6months) that the part in question will be EOL by.....The person got an email also that the incoming buy was the LAST one(with nice big red bold lettering).Didn't bat an eye.We didn't have contract for that part ofc.The result:As layout changes are notoriously frowned upon due to the slow and expensive process of reverifying,and there was no direct replacement part,people were hired to go and basically scour electronic parts warehouses around the world just to get some reels of the part in question.Luckily managed to find a few reels and everything was fine again.The thing that amazed me the most:nobody got fired.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 10:01:40 pm
content: Quote from: Yansi on January 19, 2021, 04:50:52 pmhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/there-is-little-evidence-that-mass-transit-poses-a-risk-of-coronavirus-outbreaks/Car is sure as hell not cheaper than transit here. $4/day for transit vs $10-20/day for a car on the low end.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2021, 11:19:23 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on January 19, 2021, 09:09:06 amIt's not semiconductors, it's electronics.https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/cn/Documents/technology-media-telecommunications/deloitte-cn-tmt-semiconductors-the-next-wave-en-190422.pdfIt includes everything, probably even software. According to this study, the semiconductor cost is only around 400 USD per car? That doesnt sound too much. So they couldn't pay a little extra on that?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2021, 04:32:14 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 19, 2021, 11:19:23 pm"Electronics" means even more than that. Most of the electronics comes from people like Denso and Bosch as modules, which the car maker just plugs into the car during assembly. 40% of the total means the car maker is paying that much for all the modules, with their development, manufacture, marketing, profit margin, etc.