Hotpoint washing machine door lock catches fire....recall of 0.5 million in UK - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 08:11:29 pm
content: Does anyone know the nature of the hotpoint door locking circuitry which catches fire and has caused this half a million recalls in UK?What is this circuitry and why is it catching fire?Was this washing machine designed and made in China and the Far East or Designed and Made in the West.?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 08:29:02 pm
content: Based on quick research it looks like the interlock switch actually passes mains though it that goes directly to the rest of the circuitry. Incomplete closure of the door has a potential to not fully engage the switch and cause excessive resistance and heating as a result.And yes, we get it. China is baaaad, west is gooood. Now go to sleep.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 08:33:20 pm
content: Quote from: treez on December 22, 2019, 08:11:29 pmI don't know about this particular model, but most of these types of white goods products available in the UK are made in Turkey.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 09:01:52 pm
content: Hotpoint was once a reputable British brand, but after a couple of bad experiences, we vowed to never buy acrap-pointever again. Seems someone thought cheapest parts were the best parts.A nice explanation on door latch failures:https://www.how-to-repair.com/help/how-a-washing-machine-door-lock-or-interlock-works/I might have suggested Dave does a video on over-current over-heating, but Sydney already has enough problems with it's existing fires.Info :https://washingmachinerecall.whirlpool.co.uk/

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 10:00:47 pm
content: Just after they had totally failed to get on to of the house burning tumble dryer fiasco. Whirlpool is aptly named, as in downward spiral!

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 10:06:26 pm
content: ... and the gagging orders.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7637533/MPs-blast-Whirlpool-bosses-gagging-orders-victims-tumble-dryer-fires.html

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 10:20:55 pm
content: Quote from: treez on December 22, 2019, 08:11:29 pmI'm suspecting your led lightning & smps specialist "friend" might have something to do with it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 10:27:36 pm
content: Quote from: Syntax Error on December 22, 2019, 09:01:52 pmIIRC Hotpoint was an American company, as long as I've been around at least their products have been made by GE. They used to be quite good but now the GE appliances I've seen have been garbage. Like everything else they're cost reduced to compete with all the other ridiculously cheap junk and people lap it up because most consumers are short term thinkers. People aren't able to comprehend that it's cheaper in the long run to buy better quality goods that last.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 11:06:10 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 22, 2019, 10:27:36 pmI came across this video some months ago.2:20 in the video and they said the Whirlpool top loader still had an agitator but was lacking breaks like the others.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 11:08:37 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 22, 2019, 10:27:36 pmThe American Hotpoint separated from the British Hotpoint many decades ago. Until 1989 the British Hotpoint was a part of GEC, then gradually migrated out of GEC. The American Hotpoint was part of GE (nothing to do with the British GEC) until quite recently. Now the UK Hotpoint is a part of Whirlpool, and the US Hotpoint it part of Haier.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 11:43:24 pm
content: Interesting, I never realized they had become different things.Either way, throughout my life there have only been 3 or 4 major makers of white goods and a whole lot of badge engineering. Until front load washers started getting very popular here about 10 years ago there were two basic designs of washing machine that you'd find almost everywhere. Once nice thing about that is that you can walk into a store today and buy most any part you need for a 1965 washer or dryer brand new. I suspect that is starting to change though.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 11:50:43 pm
content: If it's the type which has a thermal time-delay, I'm not too surprised that they could catch fire...PTC motor starters have a similar failure mode.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 11:47:52 pm
content: thanks,The mechanism actually looks pretty clever, as in amyk's video from BigClive.I suspect that many years of rough treatement probably does something that makes the PTC stay hot due to repetitive contacting/uncontacting, as discussed by ataradov.The PTC then ignites the plastic......but you would think it would be flame proof plastic.From the video, if you are yanking the door whilst its still locked, and then it releases whilst your yanking it, then that can cause damage...maybe that was the reason.I bet all washing machines have this same mechanism, as they will all have copied each other....shouldnt they all be recalled?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 11:56:58 pm
content: This recall is lawyers covering their asses. Realistically your chances of catching the fire are pretty low. And yes, virtually anything can be "dangerous".It is just a few failures were observed for those models, so they decided to recall them. I bet they don't expect majority of customers to actually return the units or even know about the issue."Recall" sounds scary, but in reality means very little.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2019, 06:56:27 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 23, 2019, 11:56:58 pmNot this one.https://www.productsafety.gov.au/recalls/compulsory-takata-airbag-recall/takata-airbag-recalls-list/takata-critical-including-alpha-airbags-require-immediate-replacementThere have been TV radio and print ads urging people to get their airbags replaced immediately.In NSW at least"Failure to replace airbagsFailure to replace an airbag may result in registration being suspended. Vehicle owners who have not replaced their faulty airbag will be sent a warning letter, followed by a notification of intention to suspend registration 28 days later. If the faulty airbag has still not been replaced after another 28 days, a final letter will be sent to advise the vehicle’s registration has been suspended."https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/takata-airbag-recall.html

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2019, 06:59:52 am
content: AU government is more paranoid. The same recall in the US resulted in postcards in the mail. I've got a few different recalls for my car, and official service centers did not have parts for at least two service intervals.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2019, 12:28:52 pm
content: https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18121678.middletown-mums-warning-whirlpool-washing-machine-fireQuoteI wouldn't run a washing machine when I am not there but I wouldn't expect it to catch fire like that in any case.In fact I have never owned a washing machine or dryer that has ever caught fire and I tend to avoid buying anything from those manufacturers.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2019, 03:57:01 pm
content: Thing is those switches are pretty generic, as in they are common from many suppliers, for many models of washing machine, so there is a lot of competition to cut cost of manufacture, as they are competing for the supply for many manufacturers. Here the dominant manufacturer used to be Defy, though they now share the market with LG, Samsung, Hisense, KIC and all the house brands, though the house brands are often a Defy or KIC in disguise. I can go get a "Defy" switch and be pretty sure it will fit almost any of their models, either direct from the factory, or from some distributor, or as a pattern part, along with still being able to get the Defy mechanical controller switch, which comes with a sheet of paper (a 10th generation poor copy of a copy) showing you which wire goes where, though I generally simply change them one by one from old to new, then put the knitting back in the space. Those machines though are becoming scare, taken over by the electronic controls, which are in general ( aside from the LG direct drive and any inverter controlled variant from any other name) quite reliable, in general something else fails first.I replaced my washer earlier this year, it needed a new gearbox, and while I could get it, the cost of the gearbox alone was nearly half the price of the new machine, so I went and bought Defy from the LG, which lasted 15 years, needing only a single cheap ($20) water pump in that time.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2019, 06:23:17 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on December 25, 2019, 12:28:52 pmWhich does kinda make you wonder how they get away with selling them with timers designed to run them when you're out/asleep.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2019, 08:50:33 pm
content: Quote from: treez on December 23, 2019, 11:47:52 pmIt might not even be the functionality, but a weakness in a seal for fluff and humidity to get in there (speculation on my side). Washing machines tend to be in a humid and warm climate they create while running. I get that the PTC is outperforming other actuator types due to the vibration there.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2019, 09:42:39 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 23, 2019, 11:56:58 pmOh yeah, we wouldn't want to scare people!To take the ongoing Whirlpool Tumble dryer fiasco for example...QuoteQuoteQuotehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49661636Yes I bet it's just their lawyers are just getting all panicky over your assessment of "maybe a just a few failures observed for those models" this time around too.The public can be well and truly reassured by your assessment!

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2019, 12:35:06 am
content: The door lock is from mega supplierIllinois Tool Works Inc.$14.8B revenue, $3.6B profit, $3B shareholder return in 2018. They make car parts, Wow."ITW Appliance Componentssupplies components for all key producers of household appliances all over the world, such as B/S/H, Whirlpool, Electrolux, Indesit, Arçelik, General Electric, Candy, Gorenje, Haier, LG, Samsung, Vestel etc."I was about to criticize the approach of ultra engineering to save a few pennies by eliminating the solenoid. Save $0.50 per door latch with the PTC heater scheme, but spent $75,000+ on engineering labour, patent app, injection molds, testing, approvals, CADD sims etc. Would this door latch get used in 150,000 appliances to make it pay off? Or just use a solenoid and be done with it.But here we don't have Whirlpool doing the door lock engineering but they carry the product's liability.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2019, 04:26:02 am
content: I suspect the savings in using a heater vs a solenoid is much more significant than that, and a lot of that engineering would have to be done either way.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2019, 05:09:59 am
content: Some similar designs (Maytag etc) used wax motors as a door locking device. Probably less prone to fire, but not very reliable over hundreds of cycles.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2019, 05:15:43 am
content: I remember one in a school 20 years ago.They had many Indesits there that were in constant use all day and one of them was replaced with a new Hotpoint but that rusted a lot after 6 months and at the end of the year it failed so it was taken outside to the dump but it never caught fire or anything. They didn't bother with the warranty and replaced it with some other brand.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2019, 01:01:41 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on December 26, 2019, 05:15:43 amThe warranty for most consumer goods specifically excludes non-domestic use, so I doubt they could have claimed. Rusting in 6 months is a strange way for a washing machine to die, though. Were they washing acid soaked overalls from the chemistry lab?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2019, 01:35:43 pm
content: No, probably just a poor paint job, where the outside looks nice and shiny, and inside the case the only paint is overspray from the outside job, especially at the bottom of the case where the paint never makes it down on the line.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2019, 04:06:22 pm
content: Other manufacturers screw buyers too. My sister has a fancy Samsung side-by-side fridge/freezer which created a defrost problem in the fridge after the warranty expired. The evaporator unit has a heating element for defrosting, some thermal fuses and a potted NTC as defrost sensor. And below the unit is a recess with the drainage hole (followed by a hose to the backside). The problem was that the evaporator unit became a huge block of ice. After defrosting manually with hot air I checked all parts and everything seemed to be fine. Some more testing revealed that the defrost NTC was ok above freezing point but went crazy below freeing point. So I replaced the NTC and thought the problem should be fixed.I was wrong. Several weeks later the evaporator became an ice block again. The new NTC was still fine. A little bit of internet search revealed a hidden service menu which allows you to force a defrost cycle. Done that and the heater got warm. So the control circuit worked fine too. Then it started to dawn on me. The drainage recess was also completely iced (large junk of ice). Was there an issue of a too weak heating element? But a more powerful heater wouldn't help since its bottom is a few cm above the drainage - too far away. The fridge would need an additional small heater for the drainage. WTF? I was unsure what to do and downloaded a few service manuals of other side-by-side models to check if there's something different. One service manual listed an oddly shaped sheet metal to be added when servicing the fridge. That sheet metal is meant to clip onto the heater and has a protruding strip which goes into the drainage hole. Bingo! I took some thin aluminium sheet and cut out a matching piece. Problem solved!It was a design error and Samsung wanted to fix it silently during service calls, i.e. when a technician visited the customer for fixing some issue he would also add the piece of sheet metal. And if that issue pops up after the warranty period you would have to pay the technician for fixing Samsung's known design error.Edit: Found a video showing the piece of sheet metal:https://youtu.be/hk2TfF1M4r8?t=1200

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2019, 04:49:22 pm
content: Quote from: helius on December 26, 2019, 05:09:59 amI have a Maytag Neptune washer with the wax motor, years ago I had to replace the undersized triac that controls the wax motor but I've never had any trouble with the motor itself. I must have had the set for more than 10 years now, the washer was dead when I got it and was given to me because the guy was quoted over $400 to replace the motor driver. I touched up some cold solder joints and had it going less than 30 minutes after bringing it into the house. I had to replace the drum bearings and seal about 3 years ago, other than that it has been rock solid.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2019, 05:53:19 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 26, 2019, 01:01:41 pmThey were using them to wash clothes.The Hotpoint was white and metal like the others but they didn't rust.I am not sure if it failed because it rusted.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2019, 08:20:36 pm
content: It may have been a manufacturing defect, I've seen cars rust very early due to improper preparation of the metal or application of the paint. It's also possible they used a much cheaper finish or cheaper thinner metal. I've noticed for many years now that newer stuff tends to be just a little thinner and cheaper feeling than the previous generation as pennies are shaved off the manufacturing cost. Eventually that adds up to where we are today.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2019, 09:49:43 pm
content: The basket spider corrodes and breaks on washing machines. The drum can be stainless-steel lifetime warranty but the bracket is cast from slag. Metal fragments then end up in the pump and can take it out too. I would say a washing machine's design life is just over 5 years.A big problem with appliances is new models come out every year, like the fashion industry. Rather than make something decent, it's always new new new next next next.Increased competition with appliances from Korea/china, the design cycle gets pushed and rushed.Whirlpoolis a mega conglomerate (over 30 brand names), they claimed Samsung and LG are dumping products, and they won, the trade commission granted 52%/32% tariffs in 2017.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2019, 10:01:52 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 26, 2019, 09:49:43 pmSpider corrosion is common. So is failure of the tub bearing, which takes quite a lot of stress, and often isn't beefy enough. The large concrete blocks in most machines often break up quite spectacularly.Quote from: floobydust on December 26, 2019, 09:49:43 pmNot really. They warm over the design of the externally visible parts quite frequently, but the core parts of the machine don't change much from year to year. They should have stabilised around cost effective robust, reliable designs for those parts years ago, but they haven't.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2019, 02:59:40 am
content: If the core parts are the same, then the recall and fires would be much larger in scope and why not occuring earlier, and why not in the Americas? This is where it makes little sense.Just out, Whirlpool UK will replace your washing machine "like-for-like" or a free in-home repair. It's over five model years 2014-2018. They've had so many product fires in the UK Mr. Big Corp can't cover it up anymore.It seems these door lock fires are due to the water heater current flowing through them and the wiring. Something manufactured in Poland and Ireland, by Indesit Italy.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2019, 10:28:05 pm
content: yes it does seem odd that its only the uk machines that are failing, when the part that fails is common to all of whirlpools machines.....no fails in USA.....you would have thought it more likely to fail in USA because its more current at 120VAC.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2019, 03:35:59 am
content: A product from a company called "Hotpoint" that sets your house on fire…SCNR

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2019, 04:05:39 am
content: Hotpoint model FF175BP fridge freezer was confirmed cause of the Grenfell Tower fire,1797972 people died. Whirlpool says"there are no safety issues".Yeah it was the hot sauce inside that fridge that ignited.I suspect they realize their reputation is descending faster than a Boeing 737 Max. and their liability may get called in. The brand is doing terrible in the UK.At least Whirlpool's forced "sign the NDA gag order for fire victims to receive compensation" has been stopped, by MP's no less.edit: had wrong number for fatalities, from Joelma Building disaster in Brazil 179 vs 79 for Grenfell, but latest number is 72 fatalities.

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2019, 09:33:22 am
content: There is only one major brand known (to me) that builds its products on durability: The German brandMiele.Yes it costs more, but at the end it saves money and in the 15 or 20 your of usage you can enjoy the high quality every day.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2019, 10:41:15 am
content: Even back "in the good old days" appliance makers had their moments.Our first washing machine was a secondhand Hoover "twin tub".After some time, the "safety switch" that prevented the machine from operating with the lid opened failed, preventing operation.On investigation, the switch was found to use open contacts like those on a "Post Office " relay.Soap & other "scunge" had accumulated upon the contacts, increasing their resistance, until they burnt & fell off.I replaced it with a proper microswitch of suitable rating, & it served us well for some years.Why they didn't just use a microswitch to start with, is beyond me, as they are as "cheap as dirt".Instead, they used an assembly that had to be specially made.

author: Brutte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2019, 11:52:02 am
content: Quote from: coppice on December 26, 2019, 10:01:52 pmThe spiders are made of Al alloy with Zn. Well, chlorine just loves zinc.QuoteIt is $10, 2h job for older designs.QuoteThey, they, they. How many times have you heard a washing machine buyer asking if service manual is available? The companies (for sure Candy company) have explicit policy to make service manuals availableonlyfor their authorised service men. Ask several manufacturers for the full service documentation of your gear, check the availability and estimate the price of spares/repair and only then buy.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2019, 02:38:42 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 30, 2019, 04:05:39 amThis statement is incorrect in a few areas.Not to minimise it, but 72 people died. This is horrifying enough without sensationally inflating that to 179.Yes, the fire was cause by a fault on a refridgerator, however, people died because (a) highly flammable cladding that did not comply with building standards allowed the fire to spread uncontrollably, and (b) London Fire Service erroneously advised people to stay put rather than evacuate.One may argue that the "stay put" advice was well intentioned, and no doubt it was; the fact remains however that it was based on false beliefs and untested premises, and they also failed to adapt that advice in good time.The faults on consumer equipment that cause fires are always unacceptable, and how some manufacturers deal with these issues is also unacceptable (gagging orders, covert retro-fitting etc).However, it is relatively rare for injury or death to occur, the Grenfell Tower incident is an outlier, and arguably most of the blame for this particular incident lies in places other than the faulty fridge manufacturer.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2019, 02:45:47 pm
content: QuotePlease don't spread false information. The correct number is 72.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfell_Tower_fire[Just one source of the correct info - there are more authoritative ones that it agrees with if you want to look 'em up.]

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2019, 09:07:17 pm
content: FIXED, from 179 fatalities in Joelma Building disaster in Brazil, to7972 for Grenwell in latest news. RIP.Wrong count came fromhttps://www.rubbernews.com/government-legal/report-metal-pe-cladding-cited-fast-spread-fatal-grenfell-tower-fire

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2019, 02:14:37 am
content: Quote from: m98 on December 30, 2019, 03:35:59 amand finally they're in hot water or is that an understatement for the amount fires caused and how long it took.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2019, 03:20:47 am
content: Quote from: m98 on December 30, 2019, 03:35:59 amHotpoint also makes refrigerators, which I think are even more badly named. Then again, Frigidaire also makes ovens...

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 07:27:34 pm
content: Quote from: Pinkus on December 30, 2019, 09:33:22 amThe lower end models (below 1k EUR) are not as good as their reputation is (was), still better than most other brands. The pricier machines are still well made.If you want to buy a really good machine, buy a commercial grade Miele. Mostly stainless steel tubing instead of plastics/rubber, all parts are heavy duty and easy to replace (and obtainable for decades).However those are in the price range of 3k EUR - but will last like forever.

author: Brutte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2020, 10:43:43 am
content: Quote from: Haenk on January 10, 2020, 07:27:34 pmSome are willing to buy a durable and expensive Miele while others want cheaper Whirlpool even if the appliance is likely to die sooner.I started a generic topic on how people actually make such choices, link toInvestment, running cost and durability of goods.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2020, 01:38:39 pm
content: Quote from: Brutte on January 11, 2020, 10:43:43 amWhat is more interesting is the way the cheap machine makers are able to push a lot of their expensive models, which are just the same old junk as their low end models with a bunch of useless frills thrown in. These people are paying prices that would get them a Miele with a 10 year warranty.