disposing of lead/acid - acid - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 06:02:33 pm
content: Well I have a couple of batteries, a car battery and a 110Ah leasure battery, so it goes without saying some value in lead although I have no idea of the value of lead. Now the scrap yard i take my metal to cannot take a whole battery as the guy is not licensed to dispose of them as per gov requirements. So I'm thinking that I could take the batteries apart and take the lead out, but what do I do with the acid ? my first thought is to neutralize it with bicarbonate, will that produce any other harmful chemical ? any other better options as to what to do with the acid ?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 06:33:32 pm
content: You could use bicarbonate, but you will need a lot of it, and it will fizz up and make lots of spray. I would suggest using normal sodium carbonate (washing soda). You should be able to buy that cheaply in a big 1 or 2 kg box.Decant the battery acid into a plastic bucket and then add the soda a little at a time until it stops fizzing. Stir the bucket thoroughly and repeat. Then pour the neutralized mixture down the drain and wash it away with plenty of water. There is nothing hazardous once it is neutralized.(In fact, "high strength drain cleaner" is concentrated sulphuric acid just like the more dilute acid in batteries, and that gets poured down a drain neat to dissolve blockages. The main reason for neutralizing battery acid is to avoid it corroding metal sinks, grilles or other things.)Lastly, be very careful not to spill or spash any battery acid on your clothes, and be sure to neutralize and wash away any spills thoroughly. If you get a drop of sulphuric acid on your clothes you are going to find a hole there later on. (Your skin doesn't matter, because once it starts stinging you will know about it.)Edit: I forgot to mention you should also rinse out the inside of the batteries with water once you have decanted the acid.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 06:36:35 pm
content: ok I'll go for that, if drain cleaner is acid maybe pour it down the drain perhaps diluted, give me drains a good clean and then wash down with water (should sort out any of that cooking oil that I may have poured down there a treat). I have an outside drain that my household waste pipes "point at" so I can easily put it in there ans avoid anything metal like the sink

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 06:40:08 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 14, 2011, 06:36:35 pmYeah, it's good the way older houses had that feature. New houses seem to omit it.Don't count on battery acid doing much for your drains, it is not really strong enough. The drain cleaner stuff is more concentrated.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 06:41:06 pm
content: oh well straight down the drain it goes then to do what little good it may

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 06:45:06 pm
content: t might be easier though to throw them into the neighbour's trash can, in the midnight hours...Seriously now, the gas stations should be able to recycle lead-acid batteries, as they already do with the used engine oil. Or any related workshops.-George

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 06:45:49 pm
content: I want to sell the lead !

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 06:48:17 pm
content: Oops... Didn't realise that...Sorry.-George

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 06:50:22 pm
content: hehe, we have problems in the UK with people stealing lead for it's scrap value. the latest fashion is to cut down live power cables of dig up phone trunck lines

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 06:56:53 pm
content: Ah, yes! It is a couple of years that such actions, as well as looting of the telco's warehouses, were on the local news over here, too!-George

author: Jon Chandler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 09:43:56 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 14, 2011, 06:50:22 pmUmmm....maybe you're thinking of copper?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 09:49:38 pm
content: yes lead is stolen from roofs and particularly churchesNow there is a craze over copper cable

author: Flavour Flave
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 10:08:38 pm
content: Don't forget manholes.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 11:22:25 pm
content: What's the lead concentration in the battery acid like? Heavy metals in the environment can be quite harmful.Most drain cleaners are actually bases (lye) like NaOH or KOH, not acids. This is the exact opposite, combining them results in an exothermic reaction (gets hot, might go boom if concentrated). Caustic drain cleaners are not very nice for your plumbing or the environment either, which is why alternatives like enzymatic cleaners were developed.I'm not sure about the concentrations off hand, but I'm guessing the total amount of acid in batteries is much larger than in corrosive drain cleaner. Diluting might prevent damage to your drain, but the same amount of crap will end up in the sewers eventually.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2011, 11:50:06 pm
content: There might be some lead in solution, but lead is not acutely toxic. The quantity in a small amount of battery acid will not be enough to do any harm.Most drain cleaners are made of lye, but there is an "extra strong" variety here in the USA that consists of concentrated sulphuric acid, for use when the ordinary cleaners don't work.If you neutralize sulphuric acid with sodium carbonate the resulting sodium sulphate is completely innocuous.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 12:22:24 am
content: I'm surprised they sell concentrated sulphuric acid to the general public, although it's probably not what chemists call concentrated sulphuric acid (close to 100% v/v). According to Wikipedia battery acid is about 4-5 molar, not something I'd handle without protective gear. Getting it in your eyes is a bad idea.Neutralized acid should be fine, that's just some dissolved salts. Be careful of violent reactions and heat. Make sure the area is well ventilated.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 02:38:03 am
content: The drain cleaning acid is not quite 100%, it is actually about 93%. However, it is easily concentrated enough to char organic materials like wood or sugar.It comes double packaged in a plastic container sealed inside a thick plastic bag, and covered with copious warnings about handling and correct usage. One of the nice things about the USA is it hasn't quite caught up with the nanny state mentality of the EU (although paranoia has taken over instead--you can't buy iodine, for example, without signing an official register, because iodine can be used to make amphetamines--go figure).Sulphuric acid is uniquely dangerous among the mineral acids because it does not evaporate. Spill a drop of dilute sulphuric acid somewhere and it will turn into a smaller drop of concentrated acid. And the concentrated acid will destroy anything organic and many other things besides. That's why it is so good as a drain cleaner.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 03:26:07 am
content: Fill a 10 L bucket of water and pour the acid in there. Then add NaOH or KOH in small quantities until your litmus paper shows a ph of 7.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 04:00:43 am
content: You can't use litmus paper on an electronics forum. You need to use a pH probe.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 04:40:12 am
content: Good call! Even better.p.s. Bit of chem safety tip: Never add water to the acid and/or caustic solutions, you always add the nasty stuff to the water.

author: buxtronix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 08:42:42 am
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on October 15, 2011, 04:40:12 amAt school we were always taught the AAA rule: Always Add AcidApplies every time...

author: Dataforensics
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 08:59:27 am
content: Are you sure its worth all the effort to get the lead?With scrap price around £1 per kg.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 09:09:12 am
content: is that the value of lead in the uk ? well I must have about 40 quids worth so yea I'll give it a shot

author: Achilles
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 09:35:47 am
content: Hmmm, can't tell you exactly how to get rid of the acid. In Germany we have special companies where you could give harmful substances to for free (for recycling and so on). Don't you have sth. else in England?Or do you just dispose old batteries, electronic, paintings and so on in the normal trash?Hmmm, in Germany there is a deposit on lead acid batteries. So you just give it away and return your deposit at a garage or car-parts supplier.PS: Stealing metal is common all around I think. 3 Years ago they have stolen about 10km of railways tracks over a few days some villages away. It was an old unused track and everybody around thought it was maintained to be reopened.....that's some effort for the money

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 09:52:08 am
content: stealing railway is certainly some effort for the money. Last time i cashed in some scrap it was per Kg £0.11 for steel, £0.80 for Stainless steel, £0.70 for aluminium and £3.00 for copper.Manholes are another craze around here too, there was an article in the paper recently about concerns over safety where holes where left open and the sheer cost of replacing the covers, after all they are worth £0.11 per Kg but to buy new ones is much more than that as they have to be made

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 03:05:15 pm
content: Quote from: alm on October 14, 2011, 11:22:25 pmThat would be my concern too.No doubt it's illegal to dispose of battery acid down the drain, even if it's neutralised because of the dissolved heavy metals: copper and worse of course lead. I wonder if it's expensive to remove the lead from the acid? You'll be lucky if you can find someone who'll get rid of the acid for free without getting any money from selling the copper and lead.You could try removing the lead and copper plates from the battery, melting the lead down, pouring the acid back into the empty battery plastic case and dropping it into the council's battery disposal.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 03:07:53 pm
content: is there copper in the lead acid battery ?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 04:57:31 pm
content: Yes there will be some copper but not much.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2011, 04:58:52 pm
content: oh right

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2011, 03:56:17 am
content: here in the US i think you get around $7 for a average sized LA car battery at any scrap yard. the battery eventually ends up in the hands of a specialized recycler that neutralizes the acid then reclaims the lead & plastic in a environmentally safe manner. many battery retailers also buy used batteries regardless if you are purchasing a new one.i would imagine that lead leaches into the electrolyte to some degree... rather than speculate, i just collect my $7 and leave it to the pros.-sj

author: SiBurning
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2011, 04:49:00 am
content: Quote from: IanB on October 14, 2011, 06:33:32 pmLead salts are extremely toxic and dangerous. You want to filter out the lead before dumping the liquid. It's true that the concentration is small--because it's insoluble--but that also makes it very easy to precipitate and filter.see:http://www.sprep.org/solid_waste/documents/Solid%20Waste/Guidelines/Battery%20Management%20.pdfAbout half way through is a section on Acid Handling.I'd suggest using sodium carbonate to precipitate the lead, until the pH is between 7-8. Add it very slowly, in small quantities, not chunks, and with short breaks between, not only because of heat, but because it won't precipitate the lead properly if added too fast--keep it cool and you're ok. Then filter it with appropriate chemical-grade filter paper. Toss the neutralized, unleaded liquid down the drain. Take the precipitate and filter paper to a toxic waste facility--just let it evaporate until thoroughly dry and store it away until you have enough to justify a trip. Alternatively, mix it into concrete and toss the whole thing away. The concrete will slow the leeching into the environment. Better to find a toxic dump or recycling facility.Before you do that, gently rinse the metal pieces with water, add the acid to the rinse water, then proceed to the precipitation. You almost certainly want to dilute the acid before doing this--wasting a gallon of distilled water for the whole procedure isn't a bad idea, especially in hard water areas. Before you're done, rinse the rinse bucket and any containers, including the battery itself, with a little water and precipitate and filter that as well. The leftover in the containers after one or two quick rinses (letting the water run off, not gather inside--use a squeeze bottle, like from a sports drink) is probably small enough for most people's conscience, and if it isn't, just take the battery somewhere unopened.Keep the place well ventilated, wear gloves & goggles, be near a shower or a lot of water, etc. I haven't done this specifically, so you might want to read that document first.You do something similar with excess copper (Cu+2) etchant, though you need extra steps to handle the other ions.For the seriously environmentally conscious... there may be other additives in the acid, in which case we'd be guessing about the safety of what we're pouring down the drain.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2011, 05:39:55 am
content: I don't think you can sell them in the UK

author: SiBurning
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2011, 05:47:32 am
content: Where does the copper come from? Internal wiring?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2011, 06:55:29 am
content: Quote from: Simon on October 18, 2011, 05:39:55 amEU regulations guarantee there is a toxic waste recycling facility designed for handling used car batteries (and for that matter used motor oil, old paint and other hazardous stuff). Most likely your local council refuse facility. But of course you are right, your local council will not pay you for batteries, they will use any value to offset the running costs.

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2011, 02:36:01 pm
content: blender

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2011, 03:31:36 pm
content: Quote from: Time on October 18, 2011, 02:36:01 pmplease explain

author: ellisg
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 20, 2011, 02:29:26 am
content: There are actually a lot of cheap and simple solutions to disposing them off. If you even have washing soda at your storage room, you can make use of that, and be successful with it.I suggest that you dispose it off on a drainage system that is outside from your main pipe running in the house just to be extra sure. Though there should be no problem as long as you let it run through with water.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2011, 05:30:59 am
content: on the other hand is trhere a use for battery acid like new batteries ?

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2011, 06:08:33 am
content: Quote from: Simon on October 20, 2011, 05:30:59 amtype II anodizing. the lead plates from the battery could likely be used as the cathode. (ive never done this, just speculating)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2011, 07:06:53 am
content: I meant reuse the acid, i want to sell the lead

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2011, 01:32:38 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 20, 2011, 05:30:59 amNo use really. The acid will be impure and contaminated. Industrial users can recycle the stuff when they have tons of it, but the tiny amounts in a battery are not worth reclaiming.

author: Jon Chandler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2011, 01:50:31 pm
content: This sounds like "I'm going to save money no matter how much it costs."By the time you neutralize and dispose of the acid, hopefully in an environmentally-friendly way, and get the lead into a useable form, the money you can sell it for probably won't cover all the costs involved. I think a do-it-yourself approach is probably not the best idea here. Let the professionals dispose of it safely.