ST beat NXP again in the MCU battle - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2013, 09:35:55 am
content: NXP proudly announced the LPC800 series, not so long ago, with a DIP8 package 32 bit microcontroller, prices are low.Yesterday, ST announced the STM32F030 series.It is lower price, has a 12 bit ADC, up to 40 something GPIO in contrast to 18, up to four times the flash, and higher speed.And in the meantime, the Zero geckos, and the Kinetis L0 has arrived.So what do you think, who will win the Cortex M0/M0+ battle?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2013, 09:39:17 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on November 20, 2013, 09:35:55 amHow about you answer that question 1st, which one do you preferred ?

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2013, 10:41:47 am
content: Not sure I can follow your reasoning?NXP have had numerous M0/M3/M4 families out there for a while, including a variety of M0 MCUs in various packages, speed grades and other capabilities. They even have the kit friendly LPC1114FN28 in a DIP-28, running at up to 50 MHz clock speed.12 bit ADCs on the low end are nice but not particularly unusual.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2013, 10:51:01 am
content: I think if ST starts shipping, we have a clear winner for the moment, judging by Digikey prices, and reel/tray quantities. But maybe it is worth doing a sub-dollar MCU selection table, and ask vendors for real pricing.Quote from: ElectroIrradiator on November 20, 2013, 10:41:47 amThe LPC1114 is about 50% more expensive for almost the same setup.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2013, 12:14:52 pm
content: QuoteGiven the title yo have given to the thread,Quoteit doesn't seem to me that you have given us the chance to think at all.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2013, 12:26:46 pm
content: Who will win ? ARM ! As all these processors make them money !

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2013, 12:30:51 pm
content: Quotethere are many such chips, very few are known outside of China.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2013, 12:54:52 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on November 20, 2013, 12:26:46 pmDamn, you're so right, and pssstt ... I'm also a happy camper just to be tiny-weeney part of it, hint ->check the date.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2013, 02:31:37 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on November 20, 2013, 10:51:01 amI'd rather pay more for something which is actually working. The details are in the fine print.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2013, 02:38:19 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 20, 2013, 02:31:37 pmMaybe he means it for enthusiast or hobbyist perpective ?

author: baoshi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2013, 04:05:19 am
content: Curiously STM32 price in China is already (1) order of magnitude lower than DigiKeyQuote from: dannyf on November 20, 2013, 12:30:51 pm

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2013, 04:18:44 am
content: QuoteUm. You mean like back in July? "32 bits for 32 cents" ?The LPC800 was interesting for reasons other than price that "yet another ARM in a 64pin lqfp" isn't...(Heh. ARM is the best performing stock in my personal portfolio. Up over 600% since I bought in 06. Microchip up 76% since 09 is second best; I actually made more on the MCHP; I should've bought more ARM. They've both been paying dividends, too...)

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2013, 10:34:03 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on November 20, 2013, 12:30:51 pmYes, but as far as I'm interested, only Cortex M3/0/0+ would make it to this table. I know, that there is PIC10 or MSP430 which is cheaper than the cheapest M0, but I also have to keep in mind, that they offer so much more, that I never would consider a PIC10. And I'm well avare, that there are a lot 8051 based, or even 4 bit MCU, which are cheaper than a not gate from Texas instruments, but for some magical reason, I would like to buy the chips. And download the datasheets. And have programming cables, and ICPs, with proper documentation. ARM does that, and to top this, you can give the board to an "out of university" programmer to make the code.Not to mention, NXP and ST are EU companies.Quote from: westfw on November 21, 2013, 04:18:44 amI dont know, I got the mail from them yesterday, "Microcontroller news from STMicroelectronics November 2013". So far no stocks.I made the question, because the battle is far from over. We are still waiting for Atmel, the D20 is positioned above these, and the name also suggests, that something is coming below that.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2013, 12:03:03 pm
content: QuoteSo you are really asking us to compile a list of sub-dollar mcus that YOU are interested in.I don't think you will find a lot of interests in an exercise like that.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2013, 03:29:46 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on November 21, 2013, 12:03:03 pmNo, thank you I am perfectly capable of doing that. I was asking for opinions. Like the sentence: "what do you think"

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2013, 05:24:10 pm
content: QuoteMouser claims to have some STM32F030 chips as well as the LPC800 chips.I gotta say that I don't find the price difference between a $1.15 chip (LPC800 in SOP20, q100) and a $0.89 chip (STMF030 in SSOP20, q100) to be very limiting.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2013, 06:00:03 pm
content: At the lower end, factors other than chip cost an be signifcant, like does it have a sufficiently accurate internal osc to not need an external one, and how easy/quick is production programming.I've sometimes designed in a PIC primarily because I can get them preprogrammed and marked from Microchip for a few pennies. If you can build in most of the test functionality, your entire post-production program/test cycle can become a simple as just turning it on. And of course this could even mean just applying power turning on a whole panel of boards to test multiple units at once.On a current project, the PIC also programs the onboard CPLD when first powered up.Other manufacturers should learn from this, though they seem to be stuck in the old "buy only through distributors" mindset.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2013, 12:52:08 am
content: QuoteDon't thank me: I was merely helping you clarify exactly where you were asking.QuoteMore precisely, you were asking what sub-dollar mcus we think you would be interested in. I would say you are the only one in the world qualified to answer that q question.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2013, 09:36:07 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 21, 2013, 06:00:03 pmThat is a very interesting insight. The LPC800 has a 12 MHz +/- 1.5 % accurate internal oscilaltor, while the STM32F030 is 8Mhz +/- 5% which is user trimable to 1%. I prefer the LPC. With the STM it could easily be that if you have a serial port, the timing will be so incorrect, that your communication fails.As for programming, I prefer serial port bootloaders and dedicated in-circuit-serial-debug interfaces for development. But indeed, a preprogrammed MCU can be an advantage. Silica and other vendors offers programming services. But I still prefer doing programming during the ICT testing.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2013, 10:17:37 am
content: I love the FRAM series MSP430, but one issue is you can't pre-program them due to the possibility of bits flipping during reflow.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2013, 10:34:59 am
content: Quote from: westfw on November 21, 2013, 05:24:10 pmBut that is not their main target market. The target market is single companies that buy millions a year.If you have those numbers the prices are totally different and if ST sells (as an example) for $0.10 less then NXP that is a difference of $100000 per million pieces.There are very strange decisions that are being made at that level, as an example for our last product we wanted a 32 bits cortex M3 with 128KiB ROM and 16KiB RAM but were given a uC that had more then double that because it already was used in three other products. The bigger chip was (combined in the total bulk buyin) actually much cheaper then the smaller chip we first requested. That is fortunate, the other way round also sometimes happens and then we need a lot of time for sw engineering or limit the product requirements to make ends meet.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2013, 10:38:45 am
content: Quote from: westfw on November 21, 2013, 05:24:10 pmkamami.com.pl also claims to have some STM32F030's (which for some reason doesn't show up on English version of their web shop)

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2013, 10:12:03 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on November 22, 2013, 10:34:59 amNot to mention, that they are making a lot of ASICs obsolete, or at least not recommended anymore. The cheapest 12 bit ADCs at digikey are 0.89 USD, this MCU is cheaper. The cheapest 16 bit GPIO extender costs 0.62 USD @10000, the MCU becomes cheaper. And the list goes on. It can really turn the industry upside down.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2013, 06:08:33 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on November 23, 2013, 10:12:03 amI hadn't looked at it from that point of view, its kinda rediculous isn't it? A 32 bits micro cheaper then a simple I/O expander.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2013, 09:19:25 pm
content: And more versatile as well. A couple of years ago I designed a keypad (based on touch thru metal sensors) which needed to be controlled/read by I2C. When looking for parts an ARM controller from NXP was much cheaper than an I2C ADC. And I would need some opamps as well. The end result is a PCB with about 10 passive components, a microcontroller and a connector. It can't be any simpler.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2013, 11:41:07 pm
content: Has anyone ever doubted that Microchip's IO expanders or IR comm chips are actually pre-programmed PICs?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 01:40:10 am
content: It is not that hard to implement an I2C/SPI slave on a chip with hardware i2c. So it is entirely possible to code a PIC to behave like a i2c/spi slave.Whether those devices are actually PICs, you may have to ask Microchip - I doubt it.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 06:18:57 am
content: (well, their newer USB/Serial bridge chip turned out to be a PIC. To the point where a programmer would identify and re-program it (saving a few cents off the cost of the same chip sold as a programmable device.)http://dangerousprototypes.com/2011/01/18/hack-open-source-usb-stack-on-mcp2200/)I oughta take one of those micros with a "parallel slave port" or whatever and write firmware so that it can emulate one (all) of those popular legacy IO controllers (MC6850, etc.) It'd be nice to have that sort of functionality in a narrow 28pin package with assorted modern features... It should be just about possible, speedwise...

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 04:04:23 am
content: Hmm LQFP 32, 48 and 64. TSSOP 20. Nope, no DIP.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 08:59:15 am
content: Why would you need a DIP anyway? Production will use SMD if they hava a chance to, because of smaller footprint and cost, for prototyping you use a breakout board or something. Neither NXP nor ST gives a shit about hobbyists.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 09:12:46 am
content: The only problem with SMD to DIP breakout boards is it's a PITA having to keep 15,000 different variations on-hand just to prototype something. When I come up with an idea and I'm looking for a chip to test it with, I always have to go and look what boards I have on hand."Hmmm, twenty-seven and one-half pin TSS-FLIP-FLOSS small oatmeal package with 1028 micron lead spacing in a Wide Track Grand Prix body style... Let's see, let's see... Oh, here we... Wait, no... *Digs Through a Stack of Boards*"

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 09:29:03 am
content: No-one said this hobby is getting easierI sometimes bent the pins of smd's i can't handle directly (no breakout board or whatever) alternately up and down and glue it with a small raiser to the prototype board, then handsolder 0.1mm wires to the pins to the prototype board.Only BGA's are a real PITA and I therefore don't use them.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 09:33:02 am
content: QuoteI claim that the existences of NXP ARMs in DIP packages suggests otherwise! (because you're right - DIPs are pretty much only for hobbyists.) Except that they probably aren't clear where the the "hobbyist" market stops, and the "educational" market (which is more important) begins. (and understandably so.)I can see some Marketing Guy at STM sitting there saying "our Discovery boards are MUCH more powerful than an Arduino, and cheaper too (after we sell them at a loss), and we've even given away a whole bunch of them. How come OUR name isn't plastered all over the popular press and blogosphere, like Atmel's? Why aren't we getting any damned MIND SHARE?"(does anyone doubt that Arduino has been really good for Atmel, regardless of whether there are actual "devices sold" count for Arduino boards is "significant" ?)(maybe it's because hobbyists PUBLISH.)

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 09:43:28 am
content: Quote from: westfw on November 26, 2013, 09:33:02 amNonsense. Hobbyist volumes are negligible. It's about volume markets like washing machines and other non space-constrained applications where single-layer PCBs are the norm, and there are other big, lumpy parts like relays which mean through-hole is more appropriate.Any hobbyist-friendliness is just a spinoff from the requirements of real volume customers.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 09:46:31 am
content: That and Arduino is a good "get your foot in the door" for Atmel. That was one of the first things I thought of after getting an Arduino was, "Hey, I can just pop this chip out and it only costs 3 bucks vs 30!"Atmel, PIC, NXP, Propeller, TI all have DIP microcontrollers. I think On Semi does as well.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 10:34:01 am
content: QuoteSo what IS the "real volume customer" requirement for an ARM in an 8pin or 28pin DIP ?(NXP in particular seems to be issuing all sorts of experimental packages; at the opposite end from DIPs we have the LPC1102 in 16pin 0.5mm BGA (2.2*2.2mm total size) I think they're just "fishing", and I worry about the longevity of these packages if they DON'T pick up some volume customers. OTOH, TI seems to be pretty committed to offering (some of) their low-end MSP430 products in DIP packages; the MSP430F2001 has been out a long time now.)

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 11:59:43 am
content: QuoteBGAs are not uncommon in production. I do think offering DIP is fishing from a volume customer's perspective - it is hard to imagine a volume customer utilizing DIP today. SOIC, msop, qfn or lqfp are far more common.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 12:29:12 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 26, 2013, 09:43:28 amWell, it is not like theese machines are using anything else than 68000 or 8051. And to be honest I think it is never justified to use that paper one sided PCB. I know how much a 2-4 layer PCB costs in high volume, which can completely solve the design in SMD. And TH components are more expensive, a 1uF cap costs 6 cents instead of 0,4 in TH package. The population cost is 1 cent for SMD in contrast to a Chinese worker. 99% of the components are SMD, and they just dont make the good stuff in TH for good reasons.I really dont know, how they justify their obsoleteness, and no-one seems to reveal the true story. I'm guessing that they calculate the cost of throwing out equipment, or they decided to use something for 20 years, and they are stuck with it. Accounting cannot handle it maybe.Also, you should not bring up Arduino as an example for a good project. It was a student project, never intended to be used this broad.http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/03/18/the-first-arduino-ever-made/They have a market aim. 0,5mm BGA is obviously hand held market, while QFP packages are for general. DIP is only justified for millitary/space/harsh.And it is really not like you need to do so much old school prototyping with ARM. Pinouts and firmware is compatible (usually for a single company) so just buy one of the demoboards for a price of a pizza, and use that.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 12:51:11 pm
content: another thing: once they have the silicon designed and tested they can put it into any package they want. Cost of introducing another package is not very high in comparison to silicon development.In the low end market price is everything, so unless they can sell those microcontrollers in massive volumes for all the possible stuff including ADC, port expander, i2c-uart bridges and whatnot at lower prices than actual dedicated chips that do those things, they will not score a big success.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 04:08:12 pm
content: Quote"Good" has nothing to do with it. Arduino's *results*, for Atmel, are enviable...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 11:47:20 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on November 26, 2013, 12:29:12 pmLarge stuff like washing machines often have large PCBs as controls,LEDs etc. are spread out over a front panel, so a paper based, single layer PCB can save significant cost.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 01:17:52 am
content: QuoteI don't know what "enviable" is. But I am willing to say that the sales through all Arduino channels likely means non-substantial to Atmel (a $1bn+ revenue company).I don't know how many arduino boards are sold (250k/500k/1 million? per year) but let's say that 1 million ardiuno boards / avrs are sold. Let's also say that each arv amounts to $3 sale to Atmel (likely far less than that). So that means total revenue from the arduino boards is less than $3 million at the top end, or 0.3% of atmel's total revenue.Let's say further that we are off by a factor of 10x -> arduino sales amount to 3% of atmel revenue.Big deal? no.Enviable? depending on how enviable you are.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 01:48:52 am
content: You shouldn't measure absolute sales but derived sales. How many products started as an Arduino prototype? Same goes for Microchip. Lots of hobbyists use PICs so PICs are likely to end up in designs.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 03:36:11 am
content: QuoteA "design" of one product is a design; A "design" of 1 million product is also a design.All of them are designs, except that some designs are more equal than other designs.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 09:10:03 am
content: There is another question(s) we should be asking. Is all this seemingly intense competition in the arm mcu market going to leave bankruptcies? I worry about ST micro because I have chosen to use their chips. I heard ST isn't that healthy. The second thing is does the semi-company carry too many offerings? There must be an inherent cost in maintaining such large catalogs.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 01:36:19 pm
content: Other than the big 2 (renesas and freescale, and potentially infineon), the industry is highly fragmented and mostly consists of generalists. So consolidation is likely.Surprisingly, of them all, renesas is the sickest and least likely to die. I wouldn't worry too much about ST. But the future is quite uncertain for Microchip, and Atmel to a lesser extent, in my view.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 03:52:12 pm
content: No idea how I have to read these Q3 figures but looks like:Atmel has 356 million net revenue, 5.4 million net incomeMicrochip has 492 million net sales, 99 million net incomeST has 2013 million net revenue, -142 million lossHmmm this was last quarter, no idea what kind of things they did to get a loss but sure looks like ST has 5 times more revenue then Atmel or Microchip but that is then not on microcontrollers but other components. Microchip looks good, Atmel bad, ST disaster.Hey but maybe a financial wizzard can explain this differently

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 04:34:15 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on November 28, 2013, 03:52:12 pmI'm guessing they still have to fire all remaining employee from the remaining of ST-Ericson. That company was a disaster.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 08:41:59 am
content: QuoteHmm. Despite what we might call "technical inelegance" Microchip has out-performed most other microcontroller vendors on "the bottom line."QuoteHave had negative net incomes on their annual balance sheets for several years in a row, now. While Microchip has been consistently profitable.(OTOH, MCHP has gone $419M, 337M, 127M for 2011, 2012, 2013, while Freescale went -$410M, -102M for 2011, 2012, so perhaps things are turning around.)

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 12:12:21 pm
content: QuoteThat's probably true. But how's it relevant in a discussion about "future"?QuoteNot sure what "negative net incomes on annual balance sheets" means.QuoteMany of us, on net income basis, outperform most of the technology stocks.Unfortunately, that hardly makes us more valuable or prospecting than those technology stocks.