Soldering gurus: need tip preservation tips - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: anvoice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 01:38:37 am
content: Hello,I used my Hakko chisel tip about three times before I got the indelible black residue (flux residue I believe) that prevents that portion of the tip from accepting solder. In the past, I used about 3 cheaper soldering iron tips and had the same thing happen, so clearly I was doing something wrong.Although I am a beginner at soldering, I was pretty careful with this tip. Used quality Kester solder, pre-tinned on first use as tip was getting hot, regularly used either a wet sponge or copper sponge to clean tip and reapplied a bit of fresh solder after... I believe I left the iron in the holder for about 2 minutes (with solder applied for protection) and when I took it out, the permanent black was there. Cleaning with either the damp sponge or copper sponge does not get all of it off, and the tip still refuses to properly accept solder. Where am I going wrong? Do I have to shut the iron down every time I'm not using it for 30 seconds? Is there any way to salvage this rather expensive tip (I know sanding isn't a good idea as it can destroy the protective coatings on the tip).Feels like a very basic question, but I'm a bit lost on what to do. Thanks in advance.

author: Grapsus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 02:02:46 am
content: Hi,I regularly use a "tip refreshener" in order to remove the black gunk from my tips. It's cheap and works pretty well.Another thing that I find very important is to never, ever apply any excessive pressure on the iron or scrub anything with the tip. If the solder doesn't flow it's either a lack of flux or a lack of power. If you compensate with pressure, the tip will become useless very quickly and the refreshener won't help. That's something that I wish I learned earlier.Here is what my tips look like after a year of occasional use. Those are Weller, but it should work for Hakko too.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 02:22:26 am
content: Quote from: anvoice on April 10, 2015, 01:38:37 amI think I know the problem...... the steps in bold, above, are in the wrong order. When tinning a tip, you must wipe it afterwards. When you leave solder blob on the tip you are just baking on flux.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 02:41:50 am
content: Flux should come back off when hot, unless you used a no-clean or water washable one. A brass wire pencil brush is about the safest abrasive if you need to encourage it more than a wet sponge or the brass potcleaner stuff will. However if you use *ANY* abrasive, you'd better order a spare tip.A properly tinned tip becoming unwettable prematurely is something I've noticed on a few occasions with various makes of iron. Higher tip temperatures obviously increase the risk. I think its due to surface contamination before use, and when you think you've wetted the tip successfully, you've actually got pinholes in the tinned surface containing contaminants, that spread out oxidising the iron layer given a little time at temperature with no use.

author: anvoice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 03:23:49 am
content: I'll get some of the tip refreshener stuff, and probably some sal ammoniac to be safe. I'm just guessing that in general it's not good for the tip to get to that state (how many times can the refreshener work?), and hoped I could learn some technique for avoiding it.Quote from: helius on April 10, 2015, 02:22:26 amAh, didn't know that. I thought I'm getting rid of all solder by wiping it right after, but I guess a thin protective layer remains, hence it is still tinned? I was paranoid of it getting oxidized so I kept a fairly large blanket of solder on it. If that's the main problem, hopefully the next my next tip lasts. Thanks for the heads-up.Quote from: Ian.M on April 10, 2015, 02:41:50 amI did. Wish I had one from the start, waiting for delivery now.

author: anvoice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 04:37:09 am
content: I'll stick to the mesh then. Hard to decide when some recommend mesh and some the sponge, so I ended up using both.I did have the temp at around 400C (preset on the Hakko FX-951), perhaps yet another of my problems. Will try to lower that and see how it goes. I do use the Kester 63/37 solder with rosin, I believe it's considered an industry standard.So I should apply a fairly large coat for storing the tip and not wipe that off for storage, but wipe wipe it off with the copper mesh when between uses? I think it's common to apply a bit of extra solder to the tip to act as the heat bridge, should that be done very quickly and then wiped off right away?Never was rough on the tip, but thanks for the warning.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 05:40:26 am
content: Yes. High tip temperatures rapidly cause problems. Your solder station has a sleep mode that drops the tip temperature if you are using the stand it comes with + the interconnecting lead. Use it!When putting the iron in the holder, you may find it easier to leave a moderate layer of solder on the tip if you lightly wipe with a wad of plain white paper towel after tinning. It will soak up excess flux far more readily than it removes solder.When soldering ordinary joints, never carry solder to the work on the tip of the iron. Wipe, bring towards joint, touch to end of solder at the joint to tin the tip then straight onto the joint and apply solder to the joint. not the tip. Tinning it shouldn't be a separate action while you are actually soldering. Any exception like drag soldering SMD *REQUIRES* extra flux on the joint and a freshly tinned tip

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 06:43:01 am
content: Quote from: anvoice on April 10, 2015, 01:38:37 amWhile dated in presentation, I still think these are by far the best soldering videos today. I love the narration and old school presentation.There are lots of videos and you can certainly learn a lot.PS. 400C is quite high. I have a FX-888 and leave it at 350C most of the time. 400C might be needed if you are desoldering a 4 or 6 layer board that uses unleaded solder. I used to use a wet sponge, but swtiched to the brass cleaner and the tip life is much better with the latter. I also use plain old 60/40 solder.

author: anvoice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 06:53:59 am
content: Quote from: evb149 on April 10, 2015, 05:28:03 amGuess it's one of those things I'll just have to get right with practice eventually... The tao of soldering.Quote from: Ian.M on April 10, 2015, 05:40:26 amI think it's something like 15min that it takes it to go to sleep, unless I remember incorrectly. I left it for about 2 min and got the black residue. Probably should have turned it off, and definitely used a lower temp as I'm understanding now.Quote from: Ian.M on April 10, 2015, 05:40:26 amI did watch enough videos to get at least that much down. Only apply it to tip to make the heat bridge, then to joint.Quote from: retiredcaps on April 10, 2015, 06:43:01 amThanks, now I have something to do while waiting for my new tip! Will definitely check those out.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 07:03:19 am
content: Your tip problem will be one of the following1) Counterfeit tip and or crap quality tip. If a tip costs less than $10 dont touch it. $15-20 is normal and they last at least a year with typical light usage.2) Too hot, check the temp with a temp prob or similar. Never leave it over 400C for more than ~10min. or 450C for 1 minFor 95% of soldering jobs 380C is more than enough and won't damage your tip.NOTE: If you confirm your tip temp is correct but you cannot solder things unless you turn the temp up to 400+C then it's likely a problem with the soldering iron itself. I've seen some cheap/clones with loose heating elements that slip down the shaft. The element only protrudes into the tip about 1/4 of the length it's supposed to. So the tip gets up to temp but loses its heat almost immediately when you solder anything. If you crank the temp to max you overcome the bad thermal connection but it destroys the tip very fast.3) You are using the wrong flux or solder or tip cleaner4) You are using the iron for some other purpose like melting plastic5) You have cleaned the tip by filing/grinding it and destroyed the coating.A quick wipe on the wet sponge should clean it effortlessly. If more effort is needed something is wrong

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 07:10:22 am
content: I had a similar problem with a Metcal solder station. After just a few uses, the tips would end up caked in black gunk.It happened so soon that there's no way it can have been due to poor tip care, or long periods with the tip kept hot. I only had the problem with my personal iron, never the similar ones in the office.I switched from a Stannol solder to a Multicore, both RoHS compliant. Problem solved.

author: 22swg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 07:25:20 am
content: Never been keen on chisel tips. for circuit board work only I use .5mm point tip. my iron is antex 12W , (no temp control) 60/40 solder (22swg ! ) I always wipe hot tip with cotton rag ( years old ! ) before applying to joint , don't get black residue. Tip lasts well also.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 08:46:33 am
content: Flux, flux, flux.Flux is good for everything, and on everything!When you wipe the iron, you expose bare metal. The tinned surface oxidizes quickly, and relatively deeply. An iron left on overnight this way can be challenging to bring back to brightness; left on for a week, potentially hopeless!Try to put fresh solder (metal + flux) on the tip, and knock off the excess, before resting the iron for some time.The excess of solder also provides some squishiness beneath the crud (which will now consist of oxides and charred flux), so there's something to wipe off next time. A freshly wiped surface has little liquid under it, and no sacrificial/protective film of flux.Try to keep idle times down. If you foresee a long time, turn down the temperature. (Sadly, this is painful with the Hakko FX-888D, when it was but a touch on the analog model. The competing Weller WES(D)-51 has always had the dial, however.) Likewise, when you need some big heat, turn up the dial. I occasionally use up to 400-430C on mine, but only for minutes at a time (the tip gets seriously crunchy after a little use at temperatures quite that high!). Almost all my work is done at 300-350C. Keeping it on the relatively low side (like 300Cish) also helps when you forget to turn it down or accidentally leave it on -- 16 hours at 300C is a lot better than 16 hours at 400C!If you aren't constantly soldering, part after part, your tip will get dirty, and you will have to use extra solder. For the infrequent use I typically see when building prototypes, I would guess I use twice as much solder just cleaning the tip, as actually ends up soldered into the board. Don't be stingy. Solder is a cheaper and less bothersome consumable than tips are.I also find differences in flux. Subtle, but enough to be a bother. I never liked Kester 44. I think it burns too quickly. Likewise, the stuff even in brand-name flux pens -- it pushes away from the heat, the solvent boils and spatters, it's not active enough, and it chars quickly. The best solder and flux, in my opinion, were from Radio Shack / Tandy: the solder feels just slightly better to use, and the paste flux (at least from one particular vintage) has some sort of glycol base which seems to stick around much better than anything based purely on rosin. Just active and mobile enough to cleanse the joint, while remaining passive as a protective film.There are probably others with similar formulations and use. I recall using an old tin of acid paste flux (obviously, not for electronics purposes) which was some combination of petroleum jelly, rosin, zinc chloride and ammonium chloride: smooth enough to wipe on, stays in place, very active obviously, and fairly easy to clean up.Tim

author: anvoice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 10:30:57 am
content: Quote from: Psi on April 10, 2015, 07:03:19 am1) Doubt it, as it came from non-Chinese sellers with very good feedback, packaged in a Hakko branded bag (doubt anyone would risk putting that on a fake in the USA). Did cost under $10 but I truly doubt it's fake.2) Definitely, I used the preset 400C as I assumed it was a commonly used temp. Maybe that's why it went black in 2 min.3) Rosin-cored Kester, never needed to apply additional flux so far so I have no flux bottle. Only used a damp sponge and copper mesh to clean it.4-5) NeverQuote from: AndyC_772 on April 10, 2015, 07:10:22 amI think Hakko tips are reputed to be fairly good quality from what I hear. As far as solder goes, the Kester 63/37 is supposed to be pretty good, at least not bad enough to destroy the tip after several uses...Quote from: 22swg on April 10, 2015, 07:25:20 amAnd someone was just telling me to stay away from sponges and use the metal mesh... Wonder if there's a definitely rag vs sponge vs copper mesh discussion somewhere.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on April 10, 2015, 08:46:33 amThe rosin core in the solder's all I have in the way of flux. I'll order a flux pen to be safe. I do however always apply a good layer of flux to the tip before turning it off.I think keeping the idle times down is definitely a good point, just that I'm soldering miscellaneous 3d printer parts right now (not PCBs), and often need to adjust wires between soldering joints, or go grab another part and clamp it in. I hoped I wouldn't have to switch the iron on and off continously as I do that, but that might be the way to go.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 10:40:23 am
content: Quote from: anvoice on April 10, 2015, 10:30:57 amAll the hakko FX888 china copies come packaged so similar to a legit hakko fx888 that it really is hard to tell them apart.The tip included with the iron come in hakko sealed bags etc..How much under $10 was it?Running your iron at 400C continuously will shorten genuine tip life a lot butwon'truin the tip in 2 min.It might discolor black a little after an hour but will clean up just fine with a wipe on the wet sponge.I would estimate 400C continuous to reduce tip live from 12 months to 2 months.Running at 450C it might only last 3 days.Do you happen to have any chemicals in the area where you solder?Maybe something is getting on the iron and the temp is baking it on.Do you smoke? maybe there is residue everywhere from that?Oils would also do it.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 12:04:39 pm
content: I've had a Weller variable soldering iron on the bench in the workshopfor nearly 15 year's, and in all that time I think that the chisel tip's haveonly been replaced twice, and they have been treated like shit.In the field I use the Weller Pyropen's and probably go through a tipevery year or so, and again treated in an unfashionable manner.If the tip is fluxing up I just scratch it up whilst hot with a screwdriver,been doing the same thing for over twenty year's without any problem.Now, about 12 month's ago I purchased a ZD-917 Soldering/ DesolderingStation after seeing Dave review the Rhino, did some digging and it seemedlike a fair deal, but I soon found that regardless of the temperature that I setthe solder would ball and not adhere to the tip, in addition to burning flux.Tried a variety of temperature's between 250 - 350 and different solder's.I read up on tip care as other's have pointed out in this and other thread's,and came to the conclusion that tip care is really only relevant if the coatingthat was initially applied to the tip was of of a reasonable quality and standard.I tried everything on the ZD-917 soldering tip and in the end simply sanded offthe garbage coating back to bare copper then re-tinned, it now work's a treat.So, in summary,I agree that good quality tip's should be looked after in a proper manner,tip's that just arent doing the job should be taken out and stripped naked.Muttley

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 01:06:44 pm
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on April 10, 2015, 12:04:39 pm+1I used to know a guy who's family was in the precious metals business. He always got all his tips gold plated!. Presumably the gold dissolved off the tinned part of the tip fairly quickly, but it certainly kept the rest of the tip from oxidising which may have helped maintain wettability as oxidisation wouldn't creep in from the edges of the tinned area any more.Personally, if a tip starts to break down or becomes irretrievably unwettable, i simply dress it like an old fashioned non-plated tip, re-tin it carefully and carry on using it until I can no longer dress it into an easily usable condition. However as I mentioned up-thread, you need to order a replacement the first time you put a file, stone or other abrasive that's harder than the iron plating to the tip as once the plating is broken, the tinned area can be eroded by the copper dissolving within a few days of frequent use.A fibreglass pencil is my abrasive of last resort for untinnable plated tips before I say b****r it and resort to dressing it with a file or stone. Used lightly on a cold tip it is unlikely to go through the plating the first time unless the plating was already FUBAR.When tinning a tip that I know is going to be difficult on an iron that doesn't have very fast heating, I often flux it cold, then use a soldering gun to help heat it quickly and get it tinned before it can oxidise and become untinnable again.

author: Fat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 01:49:33 pm
content: I have found a big difference between real Hakko tips and those sold as compatible. I start my iron and once it's at temperature I clean the old protective coating off on the sponge or brass coils, tin the tip and lightly remove the excess before putting it back in the holder.Once I'm set to start soldering I clean the tip again, lightly apply a tin to it and then solder. After I clean the tip, tin it and the do a light wipe before going back into the holder. It seems like this method leaves me with a tip that is ready to solder when I get back to it and the tips last a long time. I have used some Plato tips and have had similar results.The Aoyue tips are different, some seem to tin right up, others don't last very long. I've given all of those away to someone with an Aoyue iron.I solder a lot, I'd guess the iron is on for at least 2 hours every evening.Fat

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 02:02:07 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on April 10, 2015, 01:06:44 pmAgreed, going to town on a tip with an abrasive should be considered as adesperate measure or last resort, in the case of the soldering station that Imade reference to, the problem was common across al three newly suppliedtip's ( 2 conical and 1 chisel ), so I went to town for functionality purpose's onthe tip's with the sandpaper and then went to town to get some spare's.They are just plain plated crap from the get go, but they now seem to work..Muttley

author: anvoice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 09:30:05 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on April 10, 2015, 10:40:23 amIt was about $8 I believe, was the last one so I thought it's just a good deal. Seriously though, US seller violating trademark like that seems a bit unlikely.No chemicals, don't smoke. It's a fairly moist climate here, but not horribly so, and it was indeed about 2 min that it sat at 400C, protected by solder. I do notice that black appears in the solder coating I apply to the tip pretty quickly (a minute or two) so I reapply it regularly, I guess that's the flux decomposing, but it wiped off fine with copper mesh or damp towel before.Quote from: Muttley Snickers on April 10, 2015, 12:04:39 pmNot sure how I feel about that after reading so much about how you're not supposed to damage the tip or the exposed copper core will degrade quickly... I'll try it if all else fails, but at ~$10 or more a tip, I don't want to break too many of those.Quote from: Fat on April 10, 2015, 01:49:33 pmHow do you "remove the excess"? Same as for cleaning it off, with sponge or the mesh?

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 10:21:22 pm
content: black crud appearing on the tip is NOT normal. leaving flux on the tip is also not caring for the tip properly.if you do get some yellow flux residue, it can be more tenacious and you may need to pry it off carefully using a flat-edged tool. the plating underneath is frequently dull and won't wet unless you drag solder all over it to wet it completely. You can also lower the temperature greatly (under 300F) and apply liquid flux to eat away contaminants for a couple minutes. the tip tinner products are better but not necessary.

author: kolonelkadat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 03:47:59 am
content: It sounds like either the tip is trash, or your "damp sponge" is not a proper soldering sponge. I wont pretend like i dont use a kitchen sponge myself, but you should be aware that there are like 3 or more different "standard" sponges commonly used in the kitchen. Some of them will have chemicals that are bad for the iron.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 04:17:52 am
content: We had the sponge discussion last week:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/replacement-sponges-for-hakko-888d/Adafruit have a PDF about keeping a Hakko happy:http://www.adafruit.com/datasheets/hakkotips.pdfIf you are going to use cheap sponge, or change brands of RMA or R flux core solder for tip tinning, it may be advisable to try them on a cheap plated tip for a bargain basement 25W non-temperature controlled iron that uses Weller style straight 1/4" rod tips secured with a grubscrew before risking a new expensive temperature controlled solderstation tip on them.Also, it would be worth trying distilled water for wetting the sponge to avoid a buildup of minerals and avoid the chlorine that is commonly added to municipal water supplies. If you are too cheap to get distilled water, use water that has been boiled a couple of times in the kettle and always over-wet the sponge then squeeze it out. The worst of the minerals will have precipitated out in the kettle, the chlorine will have boiled off and squeezing the sponge out gets rid of most of the minerals left behind when the previous wetting dried out.

author: Fat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 05:45:59 am
content: Quote from: Fat on April 10, 2015, 01:49:33 pmHow do you "remove the excess"? Same as for cleaning it off, with sponge or the mesh?Pretty much, just a fast wipe on both sides and a check, then back in the holder.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 05:47:40 am
content: Could your sponge have got contaminated by something nasty? (technical term, HiHi)Could your iron be running hot (hotter than indicated)? I run mine at 320c.

author: anvoice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 07:41:32 am
content: Quote from: helius on April 10, 2015, 10:21:22 pmIt's the solder I wanted to leave on, but since it's rosin-cored flux must also have remained. I did wipe it off often and coat with fresh solder. As for temp, I'll definitely try lower, I think you mean 300C though since 300F is not enough to melt solder.Quote from: kolonelkadat on April 11, 2015, 03:47:59 amUnless fake, should be a quality Hakko tip. Fake is unlikely it's not customary to pirate trademarks in the US (it came with Hakko logo). I think I used the cellulose sponge, it's an old small one that came with my Yihua 936 station, don't know if it's high quality or not but it's meant for soldering.Quote from: Ian.M on April 11, 2015, 04:17:52 amI think I'll stick to the metal mesh for the time being, as far as the sponge being cheap or not, I didn't even know there were many different kinds. Cellulose by itself shouldn't be damaging to the tip, nor do I see any particularly harmful chemicals getting on it during manufacturing, though I'm not sure.Don't think I'm desperate enough to try distilled yet. Calcium and magnesium are the main "contaminants" in tap water, a few dozen ppm, and I don't think much of that should make it to the tip surface, nor do too much harm in trace amounts. Chlorine will evaporate pretty quickly from tap water that stood there for a while, so not necessary to boil, but that would work too.Quote from: Fat on April 11, 2015, 05:45:59 amI'll try that next time, didn't do that before since I thought a thick layer protects it better.Quote from: VK5RC on April 11, 2015, 05:47:40 amSponge: I can think of nothing I would classify as an active chemical where I keep the sponge.Too hot: almost certainly, that's been a ubiquitous theme in the comments up to now, my 400C probably didn't help, even if other factors were present.Thanks to everyone for the excellent feedback I got so far. I'll try put that advice into practice when my replacement tip arrives.

author: jeff.remus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 03:32:05 pm
content: Easiest way per solder class is to always always completely cover the tip with a ball of solder just before you return it to the holtser, you should clean the tip by adding solder sipping it with a damp sponge before

author: jeff.remus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 03:35:11 pm
content: The ball of short will keep the oxygen oxidation from occurring in the first place. And yes you must learn to do the each and every time.

author: jeff.remus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 03:41:11 pm
content: The best iron I have used that does the best job keeping the iron asleep is the JBC. It's the fastest heating moist powerful firmware upgradable iron out there. It even has a biforcated drag tip for leader parts. This makes soldering dsp and spu a snap

author: Evil Lurker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 07:02:23 pm
content: I make my own tips using #4 and #6 solid copper ground wire, a bench grinder, and a bastard file. A quick dunk in a home made nickle sulfate electroplating bath and they are good to go. When they wear out, just take the file to them again. I figured my cost is about .37 cents USD per tip along with time, which isn't much.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 03:17:48 pm
content: Quote from: Evil Lurker on April 12, 2015, 07:02:23 pmCould you provide photos and/or a video of it? Please! It seems a very interesting DIY approach!