Tequipment international order requirements  :o - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2012, 07:38:51 am
content: Wow. I can't believe it.I wanted to buy something from Tequipment as they have something I wanted to purchase, and they have been sponsoring Dave.What a waste of time. For ANY international order they require a copy of a credit card statement and copies of the front and back of your credit card before they will process your order. This is tantamount to providing a third party with the keys to your bank account. It is ridiculous and completely contrary to their advertising on an international forum. It is also against the agreement you have with your credit card company to ensure that your security information is kept safe.Too bad they won't get any business from me until they stop assuming that I am a criminal and secondly requiring very personal security information just for the privilege of me giving them my money.Sorry Tequipment, as Dave would say; "FAIL".

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2012, 07:55:16 am
content: How is this worse than just providing credit card details, including number, verification code, name, expiration date, address and phone number, as you would for any normal CC payment?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2012, 08:02:43 am
content: Some credit card statements show more details than just what is available on the card, and also show all your other purchases you have made. I don't want to go into minute details but there can be sensitive information on a credit card statement. If this is what they require to prove you are who you say you are then it can be used by others to prove that they are you. It cannot be argued both ways. Either it is nothing extra and therefore not needed and ineffective, or it is more personal information required that could not be obtained otherwise to prove in their eyes who you are.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2012, 08:03:21 am
content: I noticed that some time ago, too, when I considered ordering from them. I took my business elsewhere. In my experience, companies doing things like this are usually not terribly interested in getting my business anyhow, so going elsewhere is a win-win situation for both. We are not in the 90th any more, and if they are really interested in international business they should try to find a credit card processor who is prepared to properly validate cards used for online purchases.

author: elCap
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2012, 08:44:05 am
content: I had the same issue with them. And they don't have or accept any secure way for you to provide the information they want. I tried to send them a password protected zip and then the password in another mail. They didn't understand how to open it...They can only accept unsecured plain e-mail.I decided to sent them what they wanted anyway. But as all was in Japanese they didn't accept it... so in the end they made a random deposit to my account and I just reply what amount it was and all was set. Now I buy a lot of stuff from them as I find it convenient even if they are extremely slow in sending out orders.

author: cybergibbons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2012, 09:59:05 am
content: Quote from: alm on April 16, 2012, 07:55:16 am1. I'd hope that the mechanism that I would send a normal payment by is secure.2. They shouldn't ever store the CVV code.3. I'd hope they'd store the details on a payment system in a secure way, it's hard to do that with scans of the front and back of a card.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2012, 04:25:30 pm
content: Sending unencrypted pictures is not very secure, I'm not very impressed with that. Some other vendors requiring this at least provide a way to upload via HTTPS.Since CC authentication is purely based on shared secrets, you send the CVV code to the retailer (unless they use an external payment processor like PayPal), you're at the mercy of whoever accepts the CC details anyway. There is no inherent security like with challenge-response systems. The only reason why CC fraud is not more prevalent is because CC companies frown on merchants accepting fraudulent CCs, i.e. they have them pay for the costs of the charge back and will revoke their merchant account if it occurs too often. The CC companies also have fairly sophisticated systems being able to spot suspicious patterns.Quote from: cybergibbons on April 16, 2012, 09:59:05 amHow do you store them in a secure way? The encryption will have to be reversible, since the same system needs to be able to decrypt the CC details if the user performs another transaction. I'm not convinced that reversible encryption with the encryption keys in the memory and on the disk of the server provides any real security, though I guess it looks good on paper to claim 256-bit military-grade AES encryption.

author: olsenn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2012, 04:43:43 pm
content: They don't require verification for Canadian orders either, just outside the US and Canada.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2012, 08:18:57 pm
content: Not sure why they require so much, making it less easily for international buyers reduces their chances of making a sale, unless they've been burned by many fake CC. They do take paypal, IIRC.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2012, 09:02:11 pm
content: I have sent two emails to Tequipment asking for clarification in my case as I am a Canadian living in Chile. It is not clear if I need to provide my life story to get things shipped to Chile or not.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2012, 09:41:50 pm
content: Does anybody have an US billing address registered in you credit card. I didn't had to send them all that stuff to get it shipped to Miami using a Dominican credit card with US and dominican addresses registered in it.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2012, 09:42:42 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on April 16, 2012, 08:03:21 amPaypal, end of story.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2012, 10:56:48 pm
content: Well some people do not like paypal and I understand why given the reports of problems I have seen. I have not had any problems with paypal yet so I have no problem using them. The problem I face is that my paypal account is attached to a Canadian address and I am in Chile. Many companies will not ship to a different address than is on the paypal account.I received this in an email just now from Tequipment:"If you wish to pay by credit card, we require all international credit card orders to provide additional documentation for the first purchase. We also accept Paypal and Wire Transfers if you are uncomfortable sending the additional information.The documentation we need is as follows:1) Scan/photo/fax of the front and back of the credit card2) Scan/photo/fax of the billing statement sent to you by the card issuer, showing both the billing address and the credit card number. Of course, you may "blank out" any purchases on the statement. We don't need to see what you purchase, only the billing address and the account number.You may either email or fax these to us. Keep in mind that faxing produces very low quality images of credit cards and may require you to do it more than once.This policy is in place to protect both us and our customers from fraud. We hope you understand.For more details please see:http://www.tequipment.net/EC.html#internationalPlease let us know if you need any further information or require any more details."So they have just confirmed that I cannot do business with them by credit card unless I give them my personal information. They have stated however that it is permitted to blank out sections on the statement I consider private. The problem is I do not get a paper statement, only an electronic one so I cannot provide the information they want even if I wanted to. I am awaiting a response as to whether they will ship to me in Chile while my paypal account is in Canada.One more kick at the can with them and then they can forget me doing business with them.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 12:02:11 am
content: I'm afraid I don't see the problem.You need to give them your billing address to use the card.You need to give them your card number to use the card.You need to give them your name to use the card.You need to give them the CVV2 to use the card.They only want to see the account number as a form of insurance and it's not uncommon for international stuff.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 12:50:16 am
content: Jameco did the same thing to me once.They wanted a picture of my visa statement before they would process my order.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 02:24:49 am
content: But what about that little 3 digit number on the back of the credit card? Do they ask for that too? If they do, a malicious person could store it somewhere and do their own purchases with YOUR credit card! This doesn't happen with places like Amazon because they are just encrypted and stored in a database where no human can see (or understand) them.So, is the number allowed to be blanked out? How can they guarantee they won't clone your card in some way?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 02:28:51 am
content: Its obvious they're not serious doing business out of US, or if they're really serious, the policy maker of this rule must be a moronic red neck who thought everybody outside US is a terrorist or scammer, oh yeah, also the central of universe is in US, its so typical.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 03:00:36 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 17, 2012, 12:02:11 amI have replied that it is not as much as a problem now that they have agreed that items on the statement can be erased or blocked out and they will still accept this. My personal problem is that I do not receive paper statements.But lets say that I am a scammer. If they will accept altered documents to prove who I am, they will most certainly be fooled by fake documents too. I know that I could make a "copy" of a statement that no one would be able to see as fake without it being put to document specialist. Even then, it will not be an original but a copy and can be easily faked beyond the possibility of being detected as such.So they want me to show proof o who I am using information they would not normally have access to and it could easily be faked or also stolen from the same mail box the credit card was stolen from.It is pointless, ineffective and intrusive.I am still trying to buy from them but we will see ...........

author: metalphreak
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 06:06:51 am
content: You will probably find its part of their record keeping requirements with their VISA/MasterCard payment processor. If they don't verify customers properly, and someone uses a fraudulent card, VISA/MasterCard just claw back the money from the business, and it's tough luck. Having to absorb losses from scammers means prices of products go up all for the sake of not having sending some documents? You are already giving them all the info off the card anyway, along with your shipping address... you only need to scan the credit card statement as proof of address - you can leave out the actual purchase history part.It's not just Tequipment, it's most businesses that ship internationally. For example, ordering anything from ProVantage outside the USA is not possible with a VISA or MasterCard, but you can with an American Express card.Honestly, I don't see the big deal. In many cases you are lucky they are even willing to ship overseas, with all the extra overhead for customs forms, export restrictions, and whatever. Do you really think they enjoy having to manually process documentation for international orders if they didn't have to?

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 09:06:54 am
content: [Quotes reordered]Quote from: ivan747 on April 17, 2012, 02:24:49 amThis number on the back is a security feature that in practice is a joke. Many sites now ask for it, many sites for sure store it together with your other credit card details, and a hacker stealing their database just gets everything he needs, including the number. It is just a brain dead idea. Whoever came up with the idea of that additional number had no fucking clue. Here are Visa's stupid claims about the numberhttp://usa.visa.com/personal/security/visa_security_program/3_digit_security_code.htmlThat feature once served a tiny bit of purpose. Remember the days, when your credit card details were copied onto a yellow paper slip? These machines couldn't copy the number on the back. Therefore, anyone with only a copy of the slip didn't have the number on the back. But, a malicious waiter could of course have manually copied the number. And there are still enough shops not asking for the number. So the feature really never added security.One of many issues with credit card security is that vendors who get your credit card data give a fucking fart about security. They use some rubbish shop system on rubbish Windows, "maintained" by the pimply faced youth from next door, and absolutely don't care about the security of customer data.QuoteA shop might not accept your order if you don't give them the number. But because the number IMHO doesn't add any real security, you can give it to the shop. And as you can see from the above VISA link, credit card companies expect you to give the number to shops.QuoteOf course they can. Instead of just storing your card number, one just needs to store three more digits. Hardly a security feature. It is just as if your credit card number got a little bit longer.And not even large credit card processors are immune against getting their data stolen. E.g. just recentlyhttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304750404577318083097652936.htmlQuoteIn the rare cases where some vendor uses an encrypted database it still doesn't mean it is absolutely safe. The store system needs to be able to encrypt and decrypt the database. The backend that processes the credit card data needs to be able to encrypt the data. The web front-end sees the data in clear text. So the keys are probably available at a few places in their system. A hacker obtaining the database and the key has everything he needs. A malicious employee with access to the keys is another option.The main security feature of a credit card is that a credit card company will hold you harmless if things go wrong. At least that's what they claim in their ToS. You'll find out once you have a problem.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 10:27:15 am
content: Quote from: metalphreak on April 17, 2012, 06:06:51 amI can pretty much guarantee that Visa/Mastercard don't require that businesses ask customers to email them an unencrypted copy of their card and payments statements. In fact it is explicitly forbidden by the PCI-DSS standard, which they should be required to comply with by their merchant agreements.All the rules and regulations in the world don't stop people doing stupid things.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 11:57:45 am
content: Indeed, it's some stupid rules...Documents can be faked, I also don't get printed credit card reports but I can generate one as a pdf file as many times as I want from the online interface... you can't really tell if the card is real or not from a photo of it...When I rented a dedicated server, the company just asked for a copy of my ID (and allowed me to blank out what's here the equivalent of the SSN) and my phone number and a few minutes after I placed the order they called me to confirm all the details of the order... it literally took 3-5 minutes of their time and about 50 cents in skype credits (or whatever they use) and they sorted out more than they could have sorted from some scanned documents.But you see, it could be very well a pre-paid phone card but generally you can make some determinations based on the user's voice (emotions, how undecided and unsure he is)... the downside is some people are shy and are simply reluctant to talk to human persons.For renting dedicated servers where a user can do some damage (spam, use bandwidth) for a week or so until the credit card turns fake or stolen, this additional step worked out great for the company i work with.

author: metalphreak
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 03:57:28 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on April 17, 2012, 10:27:15 amSending a scan of your card is no different to handing it physically to someone in a store. The PCI-DSS standard is related to the automated processing and digital storage of customer card details. Usually you would obscure part of the number when sending the scan as its basically just proving you have the physical card (so the transmission of an incomplete number isn't an issue anyway).When I used to work at a telecommunications retailer, we'd have to scan copies of IDs as part of the contract requirements (as well as entering the details into the system). We would just obscure part of the credit/bank card number with the persons driver's licence. The actual information is held securely, and the scan is just a partial part of it to visually match it to a physical ID.But again, since it's all separate from payment processing, as its the companies own customer verification process, most of the PCI-DSS isn't even applicable.Like I said earlier, it's mainly to ward off the casual scammers (anyone dedicated enough can fake the requirements). With international fraud, its very difficult to track down criminals due to the limitations of international jurisdiction. My sister works in corporate/business banking so I'll ask her next time we talk and see if she can shed any more light on it

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 07:47:35 pm
content: Stealing a bunch of credit card numbers and using them to make a bunch of purchases (I'm sure there's software for this) is much easier than photoshopping a credit card for each of the accounts. Since the numbers and name are embossed, you also need to fake the shadows and reflections in most lighting. Automating this is probably not trivial. Not great security by any means, just like a photocopy of an ID that many companies accept. Just some extra trouble the criminals have to go through, and some extra documentation to prove to Visa that you worked really hard to verify the card.Orders with fake credit card numbers can usually be tracked from the shipping address, but getting someone caught who had the stuff sent to an address in the UK or Australia is much harder. It takes all of one phone call before criminals get delivered to the US on a silver platter.Quote from: ivan747 on April 17, 2012, 02:24:49 amEvery online store I've ever seen asks for it. They're not supposed to store it, but I just assume that it's probably published on the companies website aswww.example.com/credit_card_numbers.xls. I'm just regularly checking credit card statements and prepared to call my CC company when they get abused.About the database that no human can see them, I might believe this if it were the NSA, maybe. No way I believe this in a commercial system, where uptime and convenience takes precedence over security. If Amazon is unable to process any payments due to database corruption, does the responsible manager ask the IT people to go through the proper procedures and take their time, or does he say screw this and reach for the decryption code? Does Visa accept hashes of credit card details instead of plain text details? Where is the encryption key stored to decrypt the transactions before sending them to Visa?

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 08:17:04 pm
content: About 8 years ago I bought something from an US company and they asked me to mail them a scan (or a photo) of my passport with my credit card placed over the second page.I thought it was a "bizarre" request, so I called the credit card customer assistance, and they answered that this is a legitimate request, because it was like personally giving the card to them to look at.The back security number was not requested.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 09:26:26 pm
content: Quote from: alm on April 17, 2012, 07:47:35 pmThat is, of course the best way to do it. Some credit card companies in here send you and SMS each time a transaction is done, if you want them to, and I think it is free, something remarkable. Here the SMS are ridiculously expensive.(Off topic)In fact, having internet on your cellphone and some smartphone chat app like WhatsApp is cheaper than having conversations every day via SMS (500 SMS = RD$275; 250MB = RD$295, ~$7.50 USD each). The same applies to Skype (and their credits) and international calls, to mildly bring this post back to topic.

author: siliconmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2012, 06:58:47 am
content: i would check wether showing any part of a stament voids your online fraud insurance.lightages.

author: tequipment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2012, 07:47:08 pm
content: All,I found it very interesting reading your feedback on this issue with international translations. We require the information to protect us from fraud.In the USA we have an avs system that allows us to check to see if the address we are shipping to matches that on the billing statement on the credit card.Internationally that is not the case 99% of the time. I would like to hear suggestions on how to verify these orders from a customers perspective. We want orders , we want the business, and we want it to be easy but the amount of fraud we see internationally is huge. I look forward to your feedback on this matter. And to clear up a small issue we do not ask for the cvv code to be sent to us.ThanksEvan CirelliVice PresidentTequipment.NETevan@tequipment.net

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2012, 10:27:32 pm
content: Quote from: tequipment on April 24, 2012, 07:47:08 pmThe obvious way to do this is to use PayPal, as you can limit transactions to "verified" addresses if you chose, and many merchants do this. I think most people would be more than happy with PayPal if offered.The fees are higher of course, but it's not uncommon for companies to pass this onto the consumer, and most understand that.Dave.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2012, 11:29:26 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on April 17, 2012, 03:00:36 amIt's really more of a systemic issue when considering how just about every bank in the US spams the crap out of their patrons in an attempt to get them to "voluntarily" switch to digital statement delivery in an attempt to reduce overhead costs (not save the trees, despite popular belief; some institutes even charge a monthly fee if you continue to receive hard paper statements). I manage 4 independent accounts ranging from a personal checking to a credit card for official government use only and all have done this.

author: Teknotronix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2012, 01:05:05 am
content: I went through quite a long process with TEquipment to make an order for my company about 12 months ago. Was spending around 5K. Got through the whole thing and realized I had to fax or email a copy of my CC. I put off the sales because of it. Sending details like that over an unencrypted channel is not safe for the buyer.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2012, 12:07:58 pm
content: Even the pin and chip system is not secure. The electronics lab in Cambridge were on the news recently, they proved hoe any one with a small amount of knowledge and less than £50.00 of components can put together a device that can get past the chip and pin security on the fly. These days I look for paypal if the supplier does not use it I try to go else where.

author: PeterG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2012, 12:23:32 pm
content: These days PayPal is the best option for dealing with companies online.I am no lawyer but i can see maybe TEquipment is leaving themselves open to prosecution by a client who has had the credit card used fraudulently because requesting this information via email/fax there is no way to guarantee the information is secure?I could be wrong however.Regards

author: Teknotronix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2012, 12:41:36 pm
content: Quote from: PeterG on April 25, 2012, 12:23:32 pmCould be. They are not alone in using that method. AllParts in the states, who sell luthier supplier, also do it.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2012, 06:14:21 pm
content: I'm not sure if Paypal is a good option for the real distributors. It's all fine and dandy for Ebay sellers that don't have enough revenue to pay for a merchant account (or are forced to use Paypal by Ebay), but what if an international buyer files a complaint, and because international USPS shipping (which the customer requested to save money) lacks proper tracking and rolling the dice resulted in two ones, Paypal decides to freeze the seller's account for a few weeks? Are companies supposed to close down because Paypal makes it very hard to talk to a human capable of resolving these kind of situations? I would rather deal with a proper business-oriented credit card processor than with Paypal.

author: Powersonic
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 02, 2012, 04:41:06 pm
content: This company is just ridiculous, I made a purchase from them some time in march and the 20th of April had came with out a delivery. I had to call them and cancel my order . I will never shop there again . Also note that I am local and if this is happening to me just imaging what would happen to a international customer .

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2012, 01:59:32 pm
content: Although I haven't bought very much from them, whatever I did came within 2-3 days, most came overnight even if it wasn't overnight shipping.Quote from: Powersonic on May 02, 2012, 04:41:06 pm

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2012, 12:37:40 am
content: I just ordered a fluke 1587 from them, they took my money and said we can't sell you that try this, because you are not from USA."We would like to offer you as an alternative AEMC 2116.92"I wish I had my money back,I am trying to get the Fluke shipped to a US address, now they say it is not in stock and they are waiting on Fluke to deliver it to them!In a fit of anger I opened a dispute with Paypal about this, I wish I hadn't.Tequipment wants me to close it before they give my money back, but If I do this I waive all my dispute rights.I quoted Paypals policy to them and haven't heard back, for two days.I sent them:QuoteActually they have answered:QuoteThey are hopefully going to give me a partial refund of the postage difference. I don't really care as long as I get my DMM.Hopefully I will get it or my money back in the end.This whole dispute is caused by bad Web Technology taking my money and then deciding that they can't sell me what they charged me, and they didn't even have it in stock.addendum: Actually I mucked this up the quotes are out of order.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2012, 12:54:48 am
content: I seem to remember seeing a statement like 'We're not allowed to sell Fluke/Tek/Agilent products outside the US' on their website, I haven't checked if it's still there. This is most likely Fluke trying protect its global partners, not tequipment's unwillingness to take your money. Choosing the nuclear option and opening a dispute should usually be a last resort, but they should still handle this in a professional manner.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2012, 12:56:13 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on May 08, 2012, 12:37:40 amYeah, a proper website ordering system should collected the payment info needed but only charge the money when the goods are ready to ship.Any issue about stock level or legal restrictions on selling product X in country Y should be picked up long before the card is charged.Sadly this is often not the case because companies use preboxed web trading software that doesn't support this type of processing.Companies should really be coding it themselves to suit their exact needs rather than trying to modify their needs to fit premade software.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2012, 01:07:08 am
content: Actually I have done better with Aliexpress and the Shenzhen Golden Equipment corporation.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2012, 01:37:46 am
content: Quote from: alm on May 08, 2012, 12:54:48 amYes, I've heard that Fluke in particular are very anal about this, and you can lose your dealership if you try and sell outside your area.Dave.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2012, 01:43:19 am
content: Yes I must admit I was trying to defeat the system, maybe I got my comuppance.Or I could suggest I was fighting for free trade.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2012, 02:09:13 am
content: I wish I had an answer for TEquipment and their problems with their online commerce, their distrust of anything not US. It seems that with all the business they are turning away unknowingly with their restrictions on doing business with them that they will forever restrict themselves to a US market in a growing world market. If Deal Extreme, Good Luck Buy, Deal Excel, and many others have found a way of making a profit internationally without paranoid restrictions and at lower prices, then it must be possible.I simply wanted to buy something from a company and was told that I was not to be trusted and that I needed to provide information which was not necessarily easy or correct to supply. I have purchased heavier and more expensive items from HK and China and shipped to a different address than my paypal account and my credit card. Sometimes for free and sometimes for less than $25USD shipping.This is a global market and it is up to TEuipment to decide if they want to be global or local. Advertising on and supporting EEVblog seems to indicate they want to be global, but are not up to the task of providing a better up front customer sales experience than what can be had in China and Hong Kong.So to answer the question from TEquipment here:1. Provide an unoffensive way of confirming your customer's shipping address. Paypal makes a small deposit in the client's bank account of a few cents so that the customer can properly confirm their identity. This method puts the trust in the customer.2. Provide inexpensive methods of shipping. Anyone outside of the US hates UPS. They charge unreasonable rates at the start, then the local handlers in the client's countries take at least the same amount again for fun, charge extra again for "brokerage" and then maybe ship the item to the client when they feel like it. USPS seems to be the best option here to have things shipped from the US to Chile. All other courier options end up raping the client with hidden and made up charges.3. Don't accept orders or solicit orders from people if you don't want their business. It wastes our time and yours and causes threads like this one.4. Stop treating anyone outside of the US as criminals. I am 100% sure that inside the US there are many criminals. Just by numbers there must be more criminals in the US (400,000,000 total pop.) than in Canada (40,000,000) or in Chile (15,000,000).I have only two options to buy from TEquipment right now. Have the item shipped to my mailbox in Canada and pay CDN taxes and probably ridiculous UPS charges. Then I need to pay for shipping to Chile or bring it down myself and pay another 25% import tax here. Or: I can send them all my personal information, if I can get it easily because I get only estatements, and hope they might be willing to ship to another country that is not on my credit card statement and probably have to pay for the ridiculous UPS charges again anyway.Each time I have asked officially by email what I need to do I just get told to do what we ask or (implied) "forget it".Sorry for being so bitchy about this but I am tired of being treated like I owe a company something and need to beg to give them my money. TEquipment is not the first in my list of companies who automatically treat the customer as an inconvenience. The fact that there has been no offer to do business, unless I do things out of the ordinary and proven as ineffective for their security, for so long shows that I am banging my head against the table here.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2012, 02:56:53 am
content: I am not sure how bad your experience has been Lightages, but mine is really only a bit of uneccessary delay, and then me spitting the dummy because of that.Yes I agree they could do better and they will have to fight to remain relevant. I think that includes improving their shopping system.That said I don't think they have been delibrately trying to sabotage me, and I have bought stuff off them before ok, although I had to talk with them directly before they would accept my debit card. Digikey and Mouser and Arrow wont even accept my debit card. (Another story).Also they have answered all my emails with 24 hours and I even chatted with somebody from their sales team last night. eg.QuoteThey have even said they will refund the difference in postage, they just haven't done it.I had have also had painful experiences with Digikey,Mouser,Arrow and Amazon, to name a few.This shows there is at least one advantage of being a US citizen.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2012, 02:06:04 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on May 08, 2012, 02:56:53 amDigikey accepted my debit card but hell they overcharged but still at least returned the difference in 5 days .Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on May 08, 2012, 01:07:08 amWhere? I can't find them

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2012, 08:23:30 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on May 08, 2012, 12:56:13 amDoes the Paypal system support this at all? I don't think I've ever encountered a Paypal transaction that went like this, it would make authorization more complex as far as Paypal is concerned. Paypal would also need to have a concept of authorization hold.It is very common with credit card transactions, however.Quote from: Lightages on May 08, 2012, 02:09:13 amUSPS sucks as far as tracking and insurance is concerned, however. Depending on the destination country (eg. Italy), there are sometimes long delays, without anyone being able to tell where the package went. This means that the customer may dispute the claim. USPS is good for international customers, but not so great for the seller. UPS also provides better services to the seller for labeling and pickup.Quote from: Lightages on May 08, 2012, 02:09:13 amCrime rate is probably not that different between the US and many other countries (except for Australia of course), but credit card details verification and delivery tracking is harder for international sales. Law enforcement is also much slower and less efficient for international fraud cases, you need both your local police department and the police department in the other country to care about your case. The fraud rate for international credit card transactions is much harder than for domestic credit cards.Quote from: Lightages on May 08, 2012, 02:09:13 amJust vote with your wallet and buy somewhere else. They apparently did a cost-benefit analysis of this issue, and concluded that the number of lost sales lost due to this policy represents less revenue than they would otherwise lose to fraud.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2012, 10:53:08 pm
content: QuoteWell Paypal definitely debited me first, but only because I told them to do it through the Tequipment website.I got an email off Tequipment within about 24hours saying they couldn't actually give me the Fluke because I had an Australian shipping address. (Obviously Flukes rules). And would I like some other model that I had never heard of with less features for almost the same price?QuoteNo I completely made the name up, the actual name of the company I would have to look up on aliexpress, they were bad at packing, told me I lived in a regional area and couldn't use DHL, but they were prompt when I needed a replacement part which had broken because of their bad packing.

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2012, 11:10:11 pm
content: I had this problem frequently before, but as i posted in antother post:"So what we do is getting an American address!There is a company that gives You an address in the US, You order your goods to that address, and they send it, fix customs and bring it home to you. You can choose either chipping via air or via boat to norway.I`m sure there is a service in EU that do the same..just Google with the following words in the search field: eu american adress shopping usaan example:https://www.bongous.com/For Norwegian customers:http://www.jetcarrier.com/partner/default.asp"For electro wizards in OZ.. one service ishttp://www.ustooz.com/Aftwer that, hopefully no more problems..

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2012, 11:18:30 pm
content: Yes I signed up to comGateway.com I am giving them a try.I wished I had known about these places earlier, they even consolidate multiple purchases from different suppliers.Their prices seem reasonable too.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2012, 12:44:02 pm
content: For completeness I'll finish off the saga of my Fluke 1587 from Tequipment.Last week I finally got my Fluke 1587 via Tequipment and comGateway. All there, all working well packed, via comGateWay cost an extra $66 net. But it is better than $1100 Aus.It was still in the US when Paypay said that my dispute with Tequipment was finished, I had to escalate it to a claim or relinquish any dispute I had.So I asked Paypal and Tequipment for a small extension. 10 days. But didn't receive an answer. Apart from the robot status responses that Paypal sends.So on the last day I escalated to a claim, by this time it was in Sydney. My claim was that I wanted to inspect the goods and that Tequipment still owed me $32.99 by their calculations.Anyway the day before my parcel arrived Paypal cancelled my claim in the form of another robot letter that saidQuoteThis is after I sent them details of Tequipment saying they would pay me the money after I closed the issue, not before, and text from Paypay that says you shouldn't close and issue unless you are satisfied.I don't think that they even read the dialogue.Anyway I wanted to test the resolution system and it failed.It managed to also fail the Turing test at the same time.So I crawled back to Tequipment and asked for the refund and they gave it to me straight away.To wrap it up Tequipments website is a bit archaic. So check if they have the distribution rights before you send them any money. They did communicate with me fairly promptly and did what they said they would do throughout.Paypal is probably just a front for the Cybermen.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2012, 02:09:48 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on May 27, 2012, 12:44:02 pmI wonder if failing the Turing test is a hiring requirement for Paypal customer service employees. I don't understand why people prefer Paypal to real credit card processors. Paypal customer service sucks from both the buyer and seller perspective. The only way to get a good experience is pray the transaction goes smoothly or that your problem exactly matches the Paypal conflict resolution scripts.

author: tequipment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2013, 02:49:19 pm
content: Hello. I thought I would comment. Paypal does a pretty good job of screening fraud. When you log in from an IP they do a bit of testing to see who you are and if they dont recognize you often they will flag the transaction. On the credit card front we get many orders a DAY!! that are fraud... well if we mess up 1 out of 500.. poof there goes a few k down the drain. So its the lesser of two evils sometimes.I am always open to new ways to easily verify customers. In fact I would love to hear it. We are straight forward here. I am always looking for feedback. We are only as good as our ideas. As for the website being archaic stay turned.ThanksEvan Cirelli

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2013, 03:36:46 pm
content: Quote from: tequipment on April 22, 2013, 02:49:19 pmSetup a skype call so you can talk to customers and have him show you the CC card instead of mailing a pic would be an idea. Would also be a chance to add more human touch that online stores tend to lack. Most fraudsters are a shy bunch.And get rid of paper copy CC statement requirements since many these days don't have them. I had CC from three banks here and none have paper statements. Just keep the requirement to any statement with dude's name and address.The point of this exercise to make sure CC/dude/address are all linked so what the piece of paper is shouldn't matter that much.

author: tequipment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2013, 04:47:40 pm
content: Interesting. My skype ID is tequipment1. We all use skype. I have a camera system where we can do live demos. Maybe we should bring that back.As for the card via skype. Ive received statements for cards with 1 number different.. for a different card that was ordered.. its crazy. As much as I would want to I dont think I could do that. As for the camera.. yeah we could do that. I had an option to do live chat with a cam but I thought it might be a problem with some out of control people.. you know 1 person can make a bad situation.. especially when we have 45 people here.I like the idea of a human approach to sales and support. Let me think about that. I think we can work on that for sure!Any more ideas?ThanksEvan

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2013, 05:29:58 pm
content: Quote from: tequipment on April 22, 2013, 02:49:19 pmDo you really want to go through all the discussion again?QuoteSo you really think your potential foreign customers are criminals? Guilty until proven innocent. Why don't you do the obvious then, and stop marketing and selling internationally if it is too difficult and risky for you?And regarding what a user reported about your PayPal dispute behaviour, I don't think it is acceptable to coerce people into withdrawing a PayPal complaint, giving up their rights.

author: tequipment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2013, 05:32:17 pm
content: What is your order number? I will take care of it. But normally I would say to add the address in paypal. Verify it there so you can use it when you need to then there are no issues.Evan

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2013, 07:23:58 pm
content: Evan. I brought this up in the start of this thread. I cannot send you any paper copies of something I don't get copies myself. I only get electronic statements. Anyone can fake a paper copy so it is really a waste of time.I tried buying from you a number of times and I was refused because I refused to do something I didn't want to, that is give you my credit card information that I as a credit card holder agreed to not give away or lose MY protection against fraud. I also could not give you this as I could not get it myself.When I was in my country of financial record and tried to buy from your company I called an verified that the item would be delivered before I had to leave for Chile again. A few days before the end of my stay I called and the item had not even been shipped yet. I cancelled the order. I am now dealing with another company because they worked with me to get a way to deliver to my address in Chile without me breaking my agreement with my credit issuer.I would be very happy to deal with your company but all I got was road blocks. Trust goes both ways and when a company assumes I am the criminal and they are to be trusted no matter what, well.....

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2013, 07:29:44 pm
content: I can't understand people whining about this... if this is the way TE Equipment wants to do business, but you don't like it.. then just either accept that these are their conditions, or buy somewhere else.Some folks are overly worried about sending their credit card info by email. Those people do not realize that it is the SELLER who takes 100% of the risk in a credit card transaction. If the buyer just calls the bank and says they never got the product, the bank immediately takes all of the money from the seller, and charges the seller a fee to process the dispute. If the seller wins, he gets most of the money back, after 2-3 months. If he does not win, then the money - and product - is gone forever.For those that are not familiar with the chargeback process, you get a letter telling you the customer is disputing the charge. Generally, you are not allowed to contact the customer. The bank will ask for a copy of the order with signature, copy of the tracking number, proof of delivery with signature, etc. For online sales, you almost never have a signed order, nor do you have a signature upon delivery. For international orders, you often don't even have confirmation it was delivered at all. And international customers almost always place the blame for everything on the seller. They will choose the cheapest shipping option, then complain to the seller that it's taking too long. Or they will choose a non-trackable shipping option to save money, but threaten to dispute the charge if the items aren't in their hands in 2 weeks. If you are selling something for $20 that cost you $5, then you can afford to lose money on the occasional order. If you are selling $1,000 pieces of equipment where your profit is $50, then you can't.And make no mistake... there are websites and groups out there where scammers will talk about companies they were able to scam. So if someone discovers that TE (or some other supplier) will send a package without tracking to a far away country without requiring additional information... then someone will post that on a website where scammers hang out and TE can expect 100 orders the next day - all scams.At the end of the day, the problem is that people tend to be cheap and want their cake and to eat it too. They want express shipping at an economy price, and they don't want to take any risk to make that happen.So for buyers who are complaining, just use any of the dozens of forwarding services... or use PayPal, or add the forwarding service address as a ship-to address with your credit card bank, or pay extra for FedEx International Economy and get your 10 kilo package with full tracking in 3-5 days for $350 in shipping fees.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2013, 08:00:02 pm
content: I understand that a company needs to protect its profits and security. I have no problem with that. I also have the right to protect mine and the first time I deal a company is the same concern for me. I tried to deal with them and it didn't work. I made the problem public just like the scammers would make this public. My motive was to save the time others on this forum of trying to buy from Tequiment if they were in a similar situation. It is up to Tequipment to do something to make dealings with people who have my concerns or not. They appear to be trying to make some changes so I am willing to change too?How can sharing information ever be whining? If they want to advertise internationally, they shouldn't treat international customers any different than the potential scamming customers in the US, IMHO. It was their choice to sponsor Dave's international blog.....

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2013, 10:19:57 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 22, 2013, 07:29:44 pmThis is not whining. You apparently didn't notice hat tequipment decided to dig up that almost one year old thread. Tequipment, not we. You apparently didn't notice that tequipment tries to convince us foreigners to fork money over, but still treats us as if we are criminals should we dare to try. Tequipment is currently all over the forum, posting to whatever instrument thread where they think they can generate some business.QuoteThen they should stop go on our tits. Yes, we got it, they don't want our business. We already got it one year ago. So why on earth do they again crawl out of their hole insulting us? Leave us alone, we got it.This is what I told them a year ago:Quote from: Bored@Work on April 16, 2012, 08:03:21 amOne year later the above is still valid for me. One year later they still haven't solved their (their, not our) problem. They still treat international credit card users a badly. They still request paperwork many people just don't have, and some people consider a privacy intrusion.So again, why did they decide to go on our tits again? One year ago they got told not to bother unless they fixed their problem.Oh, and thank you for your pointless credit card lecture. Hint, things are not the same all over the world.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2013, 01:43:04 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on April 22, 2013, 10:19:57 pmI'm not sure what the age of the thread has to do with anything - IMO it's been whining from the beginning. It seems TE's order terms are pretty clearly laid out. The good news is that you are free not to buy from them. There is a pizza shop near me that only takes credit cards if you pick up your food. So I choose not to buy pizza there. But I don't stop in every day on my way home to tell them that I think their policy sucks and I'm angry they consider me a criminal and I won't be buying pizza there. I just shop elsewhere.QuoteAhh, sorry, I didn't realize Dave had appointed you the designated forum spokesmanQuoteActually they aren't... they are the same rules for everyone. And TE is based in the USA, so the same rules I deal with are the only ones that matter.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2013, 03:21:34 am
content: QuoteDont feed the troll.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2013, 03:24:33 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on April 23, 2013, 03:21:34 amWho are you accusing of being a troll? Whether it's me or Bored, everyone is free to speak their mind without childish name calling.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2013, 07:24:49 am
content: Corporate666, I was accusing you of trolling, but I didn't realise until now that it was ambiguous.It sounded to me like you were trolling, but if you weren't then sorry for the offence.If you were not trolling then I think it is time for you to realise that the rules are not the same for everyone, whether it is with TE, Agilent, Fluke, EBay or Citigroup.QuoteI am not really sure what you meant by this, but it did seem to be trolling too.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2013, 09:21:53 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 23, 2013, 01:43:04 amThe rules for the cards are not the same everywhere, and that may even include the possibility of getting a chargeback, a printed credit card statement, etc., etc. Amazingly, places even exist where the seller is guaranteed to get his money and you can pay online without having to scan papers you don't have.

author: tequipment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2013, 05:40:55 pm
content: International orders require extra fraud screening, lots of extra paperwork, and a host of other issues. So yes we have rules. Im listening if you have ideas but what I sometimes hear is we should just process orders blindly then I would lose a lot of money for so many people unfortunately try to pass fraudulent orders off internationally.As for generating business, I am not all over this forum. I am designing several things and was looking back on a post to see what someone said.We have had orders with credit card copies that come back fraud. So yes we have to screen orders. And yes we are always open to ideas. Constructive ones. I like to understand so I can evolve and grow. In 10 years we have gone from 4 people to 48. I am always willing to learn something new and improve.ThanksEvan CirelliTEquipment.NET

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2013, 06:24:57 pm
content: shipping option with tracking and signature upon arrival to the destination, then that way you can prove they got the goods, ups has it fedex too, and i guess all the major freight companies

author: FJV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2013, 07:26:08 pm
content: Had to include a copy of a credit card statement for an order, however someone I know and can trust does accounting.He made copy of a credit card statementwith only the information they needand the rest he erased, as it was "none of their business".After this the order went through without any problem.So maybe asking what information they need and whether you can use a copy of a credit card statement with only that information and all other information erased is an option.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2013, 07:54:49 pm
content: Quote from: FJV on April 23, 2013, 07:26:08 pmExcept I do not get a paper copy of my statement. And anything that can be altered and then accepted can also be altered falsely or faked entirely and accepted.

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2013, 08:44:21 pm
content: same with digital formats even signed ones

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 03:03:17 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on April 23, 2013, 07:24:49 amI don't see how giving the other side is "trolling"? But no problem, I'm not offended. Many customers are not aware of how it works for the business - and I doubt TE wants to get into that, so I pointed out how the other side of the coin so that people could understand perhaps why TE has these policies in place.As for "the rules in the USA are the only ones that matter", I mean that the rules and restrictions and regulations regarding credit cards are subject to USA rules when the company charging the card is in the USA. As a USA seller, if I take a credit card from Malaysia, I am not subject to Malaysian law on the transaction, but rather US law. Many people don't realize how the whole credit card process works on the back end, but it is really one-sided in favor of the consumer. Most sellers get burned a few times before they feel the need to take steps to protect themselves.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 03:19:22 am
content: Quote from: Tepe on April 23, 2013, 09:21:53 amEach country may have specific regulationson banksregarding credit cards, but that's not what I am referring to. I'm talking about the "VISA network" regulations that merchants are bound by. There are some small differences in different parts of the world (for example, in Latin America and Asia, automatic installment payments are supported - whereas in Europe and the USA they are not). But in general, the rules a merchant must abide by - their agreement with Visa/MasterCard/AMEX/Discover is the same for a merchant in Japan or one in the USA or one in France - and that includes the rules and mechanisms that control chargebacks. And in regards to chargebacks, there is nowhere that the merchant is guaranteed to get payment for all charges - because a major part of the VISA/MC/AMEX/Discover network is the chargeback process. You can't be a merchant accepting those cards without agreeing to the dispute process.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2013, 07:03:58 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 24, 2013, 03:19:22 amVisa/MasterCard/AMEX/Discover are as bound by the laws of the countries they operate in as everybody else. The US is but a small part of the world.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2013, 12:09:05 pm
content: Quote from: metalphreak on April 17, 2012, 06:06:51 amHardly, as it violates the PCI-DSS standard which every merchant has to comply with.QuoteIt's mostAmerican businessesthat do stuff like this. I order quite a lot of stuff globally, and so far it's only been US merchants that came up with that nonsense.QuoteOf couse not, unless your credit card gets abused and your CC provider finds out that you did something stupid like sending pictures of both sides of your credit card and maybe even a scan of your CC statement via unencrypted email. Most CC providers explicity prohibit taking copies of your CC card anyways, so you would be violating those terms, too.Your thinking is one of the reason CC fraud is so common.QuoteSorry but that's stupid. If a reseller is overwhelmed by filling out a simple form which takes less than 5mins then he simply should not offer his stuff aborad, period. At the end of the day, it's the seller who should be thankful when customers carry their business to him and not to one of the many competitors, not the other way around.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2013, 12:24:08 pm
content: Quote from: Tepe on April 24, 2013, 07:03:58 amThat's true, but aside from nuances (usually consumer protection stuff) this does not affect the validity of a merchant's agreement with their payment provider.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2013, 01:14:18 pm
content: Quote from: tequipment on April 23, 2013, 05:40:55 pmAs someone who orders quite a lot of EE stuff globaly (both personal and for business) I wonder then how your competition is able to sell internationally without such nonsense like asking for images of both CC sides, and still make money.QuoteThen one of the first things you should learn is that banking in the US is not necessarily the same as in other countries, as the US system is a bit backward in comparison with the rest of the world (which is probably one of the reasons why CC fraud is higher in the US than in most other Western countries). For example, in Europe most CC providers prohibit customers giving away scans/photo copies of your CC in their terms & regulations (the stuff that most people don't read), and if a customer does so then he acts in gross negligence and is liable for the losses. Then there's the fact that most CC providers have settled for paperless statements years ago, so sending a scan of a paper statement simply isn't possible if there is none.In addition (and please don't take this personally), I have to say that asking customers to send sensitive data (which is what CC data is) over unencrypted email is highly unprofessional and quite frankly, simply plain stupid as it defies even the most basic information security principles every business should follow (and may even open yourself up to liability). The least you should have done is offering a secure upload facility where customers can upload their CC scans, and which runs on a certified backend which, after the legitimacy has been verified, securely erases all scans. But that would still only address the issue of transferring scans you at the end of the day should never ever have requested in the first place.If you're afraid of fraud, then what you can do is put in place a rule that the first order from a new international customer is subject to a 10 day holding period, and then ask your CC provider to check the specific CC data as suspicious. This would trigger a request to the customer's CC provider to check with their customer that the transaction is genuine. That would be a simple, common sense approach, which would not put your customer and yourself in a situation you both may regret later on.Another alternative would be taking out insurance against loss through fraud. I'm sure even in the US such policies are available, if you believe the risk is worth it.I have never bought from you (I did check your LeCroy offerings on your website, but most of the stuff that is listed is way outdated and no longer available, and quite frankly conveys a very poor first impression) but quite frankly I would never buy from a reseller that asks me to do dodgy stuff like sending images of my CC via unencrypted email, as this would make violate the T&C with my CC provider and invalidate my fraud protection, and I would advise anyone against to shop with a store that has such a lax and unprofessional attitude towards sensitive customer data.I know you're not the only US seller that does that, and maybe from a US point of view this all looks sensible (like many other things). But I can tell you that from an international point of view this puts you in a huge disadvantage and only serves you to harm your reputation. It certainly did that with me.Just my 2 British Pence.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2013, 01:19:12 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 28, 2013, 01:14:18 pmCredit card scans over email? No, that feels dodgy to me to, and most of the people I know are quite wary of sending out private information like that. Maybe it'smorecommon here, but it's still notcommon.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2013, 01:22:31 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on April 28, 2013, 01:19:12 pmI was shopping for another LeCroy scope and contacted a few sellers in the US, and some of them said that they required scans/images from my CC. Needless to say I didn't buy from them, but in all honesty, even if they hadn't asked me for CC scans I still would buy something that they try to sell for inflated prices for more than a year.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2013, 01:48:41 pm
content: Quote from: tequipment on April 23, 2013, 05:40:55 pmYou still haven't got it. It is your, not our, job to figure out how to do this. Without treating international customers like criminals. Without trying to convince them to violate their contracts with their credit card companies. Without insisting on privacy invasions by asking for certain documents.The thread started one year ago. You apparently changed absolutely nothing during that year. You can't be arsed to do it proper. So international customers don't seem to be important for you. If you can't or won't do it right, here is my suggestion: Stop insulting us, stop marketing to international customers.QuoteYes, we got it, we are all criminals for you until proven innocent.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2013, 05:06:35 pm
content: Sorry for being lazy, I'm sure this has already been asked but what's wrong with drawing the cash from the CC and posting the purchased item once the funds are cleared? and do they do the same stuff with paypal?

author: zibadun
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2013, 05:39:50 pm
content: Bored, I wonder what's your motivation here for bullying a US dealer?Tequipment can do as you wish but then forget about discounted prices.You can ship to one of the US based freight forwarders who specializes in intl delivery. They will sign for a package and reduce the risk of a chargeback for the merchant. might even save you a bit on shipping costs and import duty.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2013, 06:41:46 pm
content: Quote from: zibadun on April 28, 2013, 05:39:50 pmI really can't see any bullying. All that has been highlighted are major issues in their ordering process. In addition, as Bored already said, Tequipment was told that their "verification" process is a problem about year ago, and still hasn't fixed it. They says they listen but apparently this does not result in actually addressing the problem.And I'm sorry to say but in my experience this is primarily a problem with US sellers, who for some reason want to benefit from a global market but on the other side expect special treatment and leeway. As I said before, funny enough most of the sellers in other countries can protect themselves sufficiently enough without having to resort to practices that result in their customers breaking the T&S of their credit card provider and leaving them open for loss as they invalidate their fraud protection.QuoteI'm not sure I'm following you. Do you want to suggest that Tequipment can only maintain low prices because they apply practices that are dodgy at best and maybe even borderline illegal (many countries have laws on how to handle, process and protect credit card information, I would be surprised if that was different in the US)?I'm sure that van in the back alley can offer even better prices if you don't ask where the stuff comes from. Apparently bad practices are no problem for you as long as the price is low enough.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2013, 09:42:33 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on April 28, 2013, 01:48:41 pmIn DK it is neither illegal nor in violation of terms to request a scan or photocopy of a CC. But it is illegal to store the received data anywhere ;-)

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 02:44:45 am
content: Quote from: Tepe on April 24, 2013, 07:03:58 amYou stated that there are places where vendors are guaranteed to receive payment. As far as accepting Visa/MC/Amex/Discover, that is not true. What I said is correct. the VISA/MC/Amex/Discover card rules are pretty much standardized across countries. If you want to continue to say I am wrong and do not know what I am talking about, then please tell us the country which has credit card rules that assure vendors of getting paid and eliminate the right of a cardholder to do a chargeback, or accept that you were mistaken on your claim.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 02:55:32 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 28, 2013, 06:41:46 pmI would be shocked if there was any law anywhere that state you cannot send a copy of your CC statement. I also just checked my Amex (US), Amex (UK), RBS MasterCard, and Santander MasterCard agreements (I am one of those anal retentive people who actually scan that stuff and keep a copy on my server @ Home) and none of them mention copies of the card of statement being prohibited.As for bullying, a couple seem to be very dogged in their pursuit of a company they do not do any business with. Like I said, who walks into a restaurant weekly where they don't like the service just to tell them they won't be eating there?As the guy from TE said, AVS is not available for international customers, which means that if a chargeback is initiated by a customer, TE will lose the money and the equipment. The solution is to ship using something like FedEx international express with a signature required - but that will cost $300-400USD for a small 'scope. Then we'll hear a whole other type of whiningMy experience is that people (understandably) want cheap American prices for quality products but don't want to pay for quality shipping. I live in Europe half the year and there is a reason everything is more expensive there - part of it is exactly the reason behind TE's desire for additional authentication. I export product from the USA to Europe as well, so I am in a unique position where I see both sides as a credit card holder and a merchant, plus as a resident of the USA and as a resident and citizen of Europe.All of this equipment is available from European/Japanese/Australian/Asian sellers, isn't it? Isn't the angst just down to price/convenience? I can understand that being frustrating, but like I said - this equipment is not exclusively sold in the USA either.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 05:09:49 am
content: Quote from: Tepe on April 28, 2013, 09:42:33 pmI'm pretty sure both is incorrect, as most certainly merchants in DK are bound by the same contractual agreements as merchants in other EU countries (and CC providers will have the same restrictions in place as anywhere else), and also because CC data has to be stored to be able to be processed for payment.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 05:46:25 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 29, 2013, 02:55:32 amI never said there was a law, I was talking about contractual agreements which is a different matter and which you seem to be mixing up.QuoteBoth my personal and my corporate CCs have clauses in their current terms which prevent me sending photos/images from the back of the card (the front of the card may be scanned with a PCI-DSS compliant merchant device). In addition, all CC providers warn about giving out personal information like your CC statement (which is no-one else's business, period), and contain disclaimers in their terms for their fraud protection that it does not cover gross negligence. It may be different in the US but here in Europe giving up sensitive information like copies of both sides of a CC or your statement is regularly considered gross negligence in court.QuoteThat's utter bollocks, sorry. First, this is more or less an open forum, and this thread started because someone has complained about Tequipment's order process for international customers, which is fair enough for a reseller that quite often promotes himself on the same forum. At the end of the day the fact remains that Tequipment does something (requesting sensitive information via a completely insecure way of transmission) which is not just wrong because it does violate the PCI-DSS standard (which requires that only the front of the card may be requested, and that all CC data must be transmitted via secure, certified facilities, which is not plain text email) and thereby most certainly also Tequipments contractual agreement with their payment provider, it also will at best put their customers at risk of loosing all their fraud protection, if they are naïve enough to follow Tequipment's request.The point is that if you operate a business then you have certain responsibilities. The fact that they request users to send data via plain text email is completely moronic and highly unprofessional, period.QuoteSo what? if they can't act professionally on an international level then it's probably better they would sell to US customers only. If they are afraid of fraud then why offer unprotected shipping options in the first place? Aside from the fact that their request protects them from nothing. It would take me maybe 15mins to prepare an image of a CC I don't have and a statement that never existed. It's no protection whatsoever. It's just another example of their very unprofessional approach to international business and their general cluelessness on how to do these things properly.QuoteThe thing is that many US sellers want to play on the international market without having a clue that things may be different outside the US, and many are simply too lazy to prepare before themselves before selling to an international audience. Many businesses manage just fine to sell internationally without having to resort to dodgy tactics. It's just a few black sheep that want all the business but can't handle the risk. It seems Tequipment is one of them.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 06:43:46 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 29, 2013, 05:09:49 amIt is correct according to a spokesperson for nets.eu, the major CC handler in DK. He also pointed out that the images of the card must not be stored. The same spokesperson also pointed out that they do not recommend that CC holders actually honor such requests. For exactly the reason you are using in your criticism of tequipment's practices :-)http://taenk.dk/t%C3%A6nk-penge/hit-med-dankortetTheQuote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 29, 2013, 05:09:49 amThe best way, as a seller, not to fall afoul of the law is to not store any CC information yourself, but leave it to the handler.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 06:47:46 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 29, 2013, 05:46:25 amTheir SEO strategy of advertising equipment they don't sell is also wonderful. Especially for things where they themselves write, "Discontinued - no replacement".

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 06:51:20 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 29, 2013, 02:44:45 amYou don't know what you are talking about.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 06:58:18 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 29, 2013, 02:55:32 amI don't think anybody claimed that there were. But there are plenty of places where CC statements do not exist, as has been popnted out several times.Quote from: Corporate666 on April 29, 2013, 02:55:32 amTo a person from a country with negligible rates of CC fraud that comes across as an outrageous claim. care to back it up?

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 07:08:04 am
content: Quote from: Tepe on April 29, 2013, 06:51:20 amI've challenged you to back up your statement and all you have come back with is that I don't know what I am talking about.So I challenge you yet AGAIN to prove your statement or accept it is wrong. I was good enough to back up mine, and I'd ask for the same.You stated that there are places where vendors are guaranteed to receive payment and suggested I was being an arrogant American for thinking it works the same way around the world.So, please prove the statement or be kind enough to retract it or at least accept it was an opinion and not a fact.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 07:21:16 am
content: Quote from: Tepe on April 29, 2013, 06:58:18 amWhen a company ships an appreciable volume of product to Europe, they are not sending it by US Postal Bulk Mail. They are going to send it insured and with a trackable method. That costs money and those costs are passed to the consumer.That same shipping is available to consumers directly through companies like FedEx or UPS. People who are buying from US companies generally do not want to pay the fees those couriers charge. They want USPS flat rate or 1st Class because it is much cheaper. But it exposes the vendor to liability because there is no proof of delivery nor is there address verification through the CC system - unless they have a copy of the card statement that can verify the billing address.The cost of that trackable shipping is a part of the cost that a EU vendor must recoup and is a part of why prices are generally higher than in the US for the same product.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 07:31:53 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 29, 2013, 05:46:25 amYou said it was dodgy and maybe borderline illegal. Legality is defined by law, not contracts.QuoteI would very much like to see a link to a court case where showing information such as the card front/back was considered gross negligence and invalidated the credit card fraud protection.QuotePCI-DSS compliance is not a requirement for other than level 4 merchants. Unless they are a level 4 merchant, they are not breaking their agreement by requesting a copy of the card- and they may not be even if they are a PCI compliant level 4 merchant, if all they are requesting is a copy of the statement showing the mailing address.QuoteYou are entitled to your opinion, but if they are asking for a copy of the statement showing billing address, I do not think that unprofessional or moronic at all. The idea that sending such would be grossly negligent and rescind a customer's liability protection is bollocks, sorry.QuoteIt comes across to me that you feel that companies who do not do business in a manner you agree with somehow deserve to be ridiculed stupid morons and run out of town. I disagree. I think everyone ought to be free to buy from them or not. I also disagree that it protects them from nothing. Most crime is crime of opportunity. Most credit card fraud comes from people who had the card in their possession (like a petrol station attendant or a server at a restaurant). That card information gets copied and used - often online. In most cases, the thief does not have the billing address, and likely would not know what the statement was supposed to look like. Furthermore, if pressed to provide such, most thieves will move on to an easier target rather than attempt to keep the scam alive.If also comes across to me as quite arrogant for us to imagine that all of these large companies who enact such measures are simply too stupid to think it through and understand that it does nothing to protect them, and also very arrogant for people to make assumptions about the results those vendors are seeing. It seems more likely that the anger being displayed is because people do not like to be labeled as potential security risks (understandable) but also that people are being petulant about wanting their cake and to eat it too. Going back to the restaurant analogy - I don't feel the need to go to local restaurants I don't like and tell them I will not be dining there. Works out pretty well, tooQuoteInteresting that people always categorize Americans (second time this thread). Especially so considering the quantity of misinformation being tossed about in the thread, and the link from a prior poster illustrating that a Dutch company was doing exactly the same thing. There goes that theory!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 07:53:26 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 29, 2013, 02:55:32 amI hope you don't want to suggest that lots of stuff is more expensive in Europe than in the US is because Europe has higher fraud levels, because if you do then I'm afraid you need a thorough reality check.The simple reason why a lot of stuff is more expensive in Europe than in the US is the same reason why Americans pay much more for basic health care or cell phone contracts than Europeans do, and it's also the reason why we have Region Codes on DVDs: because the market accepts it. Most manufacturers adjust their RRP to local market conditions (i.e. what the market will bear). Suggesting it has anything to do with CC fraud is silly.In addition, the US is no longer the source where everything is cheaper than in Europe. Most electronics gear can be ordered inside the EU for around the same price as it would cost me to import from the US (even with cheap shipping). If I order from the US then this is mostly because a certain item is readily available and I might have it quicker than when ordering from a European seller. In addition, the 2nd hand market is also larger, and usually has a better choice of used T&M equipement than what I can find here in Europe. It's not necessarily cheaper, though, as many US sellers ask prices that are somewhere between 'expensive' and simply 'insane'.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 08:34:20 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 29, 2013, 07:53:26 amIf what you say is true and products can be ordered within the EU for the same or lower price than ordering from the USA, then there is no need for this thread at all, nor does anyone have any reason to be buying anything from me, or TE or from any of the other thousands of US sellers who ship a lot of product to the EU and internationally. The fact that about 50% of my business is shipping product internationally means that the suggestion is not true and people are saving money by buying internationally. They surely aren't doing it because it's fun.The idea that prices are higher because the consumer accepts it is silly - and is irreconcilable with the follow-on claim that prices are not higher.

author: baljemmett
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 01:34:32 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 29, 2013, 07:31:53 amWell, it definitely shows a mindset stuck in the terribly quaint type of banking system that depends on sending bits of paper in the post. As has been observed repeatedly in this thread, not everybody is quite so lucky; my credit card statement, for instance, is electronic and doesn't show any physical address at all, so it's not going to be of much use here!(What it does show, mind you, is how large my line of credit is with that particular bank. So if I were asked to include a screenshot of that along with scans of both the front and back of my credit card, and send the whole lot in plaintext across a completely unknown mail system, I think I'd pass; perhaps people who are willing to do that live in a happy fantasy world where wedon'tregularly see examples of sites' systems being compromised and customer data lifted.)QuoteThat analogy would work better if this discussion was taking place in the restaurant - but it's not. It's taking place in a public forum where the restaurant is trying to drum up business; I don't know about you, but that's exactly where I'd normally expect to find people complaining about their visit.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 02:12:54 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 29, 2013, 08:34:20 amNot at all. The phenomenon is called "perceived value" and it is a rather fundamental thing.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 02:31:02 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 29, 2013, 08:34:20 amIt's not always the price.I have bought from companies outside my country (Romania) when a brand I wanted only dealt with a particular distributor in my country, which couldn't be bothered to sell to private persons. Their markup was so high, they made a lot of money dealing only with companies so unless you bought a carton (24-100 pcs of something) they wouldn't talk to you.On other cases, it's the price... as an example, all the stores in my town buy Uni-T multimeters from a distributor in Poland, which has high markup.. the Uni-T UT61E arrives here on the shelves at 80 euro + VAT (about 130-140$) , and I can buy it on eBay for 60$ (and they often mark it as toy or value it at under 10-20$, so no customs and vat).Anyway... I would NOT give you a copy of my credit card, as far as I'm aware the local companies are not allowed to ask for it as it's a security risk. Email is not secure, and I wouldn't know how many people on your end would get access to that info.The most serious security I stumbled upon was with Paypal to which I had to email a copy of my national ID and a copy of an electricity/mains bill for my home address with my name on it. But even with those, I scanned them to the computer and cut out the equivalent of the SSN and/or bank details and still got my account verified.The hosting company I work with requires a phone number and after making an order, they call you back (skype credit/voip is cheap) and go through the details and confirm the address and payment details and everything is recorded. Don't know how much it helps with chargebacks or scammers but I think this phone call may be for them enough of a deterrent to reduce the number of scammers or people using stolen cards.I don't get any paper invoices, i get online card reports... i can request one from the bank office (to be printed but it costs about 1$) or i could print it myself, but then again just the same I could fake one in photoshop so I don't get how this helps you guys.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 05:46:59 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 29, 2013, 08:34:20 amHad you put some effort into reading comprehension then you'd have noticed that I sad electronic most - not all. T&M is one of the remaining areas where buying from the US is often still cheaper than buying locally, at least for individuals, albeit I find more and more opportunities where I can get better deals from Asia.QuoteIt's a bit disappointing that someone who claims to trade internationally fails at one of the very basics of global trading, but here you go:http://www.nber.org/papers/w13239orhttp://www.princeton.edu/~deaton/downloads/spatial_price_differences_in_large_countries%20_10%20jul_2011_complete.pdf

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 06:44:11 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 29, 2013, 07:31:53 amWrong!http://www.pcicomplianceguide.org/pcifaqs.php#2Q: To whom does PCI apply?A: PCI applies to ALL organizations or merchants, regardless of size or number of transactions, that accepts, transmits or stores any cardholder data. Said another way, if any customer of that organization ever pays the merchant directly using a credit card or debit card, then the PCI DSS requirements apply.QuoteNot true!...All merchants, small or large, need to be PCI compliant. The payment brands have collectively adopted PCI DSS as the requirement for organizations that process, store or transmit payment cardholder data.andQ: Do organizations using third-party processors have to be PCI compliant?A: Yes. Merely using a third-party company does not exclude a company from PCI compliance. It may cut down on their risk exposure and consequently reduce the effort to validate compliance. However, it does not mean they can ignore PCI.QuoteApparently its not just unprofessional and moronic, it might not even be legal:https://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs15-mt.htmWhat personal information can’t a merchant collect when a consumer pays with a credit card? (Song-Beverly Credit Card Act of 1971)• Merchants cannot request or require that the consumer write any personal information, including address and telephone number, on any form associated with the credit card transaction when the consumer uses a credit card to pay for goods or services.• In addition, the merchant cannot ask the consumer to provide personal information that the merchant then records.• Merchants cannot use forms with pre-printed spaces for personal information.Are there any exceptions?Yes. A merchant can collect personal information when:• The credit card is used as a deposit.• The credit card is used for a cash advance.• The personal information is needed for something incidental but related to the use of the credit card. An example would be the address to which the purchased product is to be shipped.• The merchant is required to collect information under a federal law or regulation.• The merchant is contractually obligated to provide personal identification information in order to complete the credit card transaction.• The card is used to "pay at the pump" for gasoline, limited to Zip Code information which may be used solely for prevention of fraud, theft, or identity theft.QuoteYou may think so but the reality is it is indeed plain stupid. That email is completely insecure is a well-known fact, and you really must have spent the last decade or so in a coma to not know that.In addition, PCI-DSS has very clear requirements when it comes to the handling of CC data, which are violated by Tequipment's procedures.QuoteNo, but I think that companies who demonstrate such a huge contempt for the security of their customers and ignorance about even the most basic rules of information security should be named and shamed so that anyone who thinks about dealing with them knows what to expect.QuoteYou're a bit stuck in the 90's I fear. FYI: a lot of stolen CC data comes from fishing or break-ins into inadequately secured systems (one of the more noteworthy of recently was the Sony PSN hack). That means that criminals get most of the data they need, including birth date and full address details.If Tequipment wants to protect themselves against fraud then they could just ask their payment provider to check if the transaction is genuine. This would trigger a request to the customer's CC provider to contact their customer and verify the transaction. Simple, efficient, and effective. I would guess most customers wouldn't mind to wait a few days instead of having to give up sensitive data over insecure email.In addition, and aside from that photos of a CC and a scan of a statement prove nothing except the merchant's incompetence, I question the claimed need for international orders because Tequipment apparently thinks that CC fraud is much more likely abroad. It isn't. In fact:US is main source of EU credit card fraud - Europolhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20945810The report can be found here:https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/.../1public_full_20_sept.pdfIn fact, it seems US CC fraud rates are at a similar levels as other Strongholds of Highly Secure Banking like Mexico, and even worse than China!http://www.forbes.com/sites/halahtouryalai/2012/10/22/countries-with-the-most-card-fraud-u-s-and-mexico/When sellers like Tequipment do stupid things like asking customers to provide all their details over insecure plain text email, this is not really surprising, is it?QuoteYeah, well, that's the thing: none of the large US companies do shit like that, they know that they are much more likely to be defrauded in the US than from their international customers, they take PCI-DSS seriously, and know how to use the wide range of legitimate fraud protection measures that are available to merchants.It's just some of the small shops that think they could get away with an amateurish and laissez-faire approach to trading, that laws and regulations don't apply to them and who don't understand that they have to adapt to their customers and not vice versa.QuoteYes, but again you miss the point that we're not discussing this on Tequipment premises. This is not Tequipment's forum, they are not the landlord here.QuoteYou mean as Tequipment and you suggest that non-American buyers are much more likely to be fraudsters than Americans (which apparently is wrong anyways, as we've seen!)? Let's talk about categorizing again, shall we?But at the end of the day, I highlight American companies for the simple reason that I only have seen such dodgy methods with US sellers. Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty sure there are enough black sheep in other countries as well, but in this thread we are talking about the dodgy methods of a certain US reseller (Tequipment). I'm sure should any non-American seller act similarly that we'll see a similar thread about them.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 07:24:21 pm
content: Quote from: Tepe on April 29, 2013, 02:12:54 pmWhat about backing up what you said regarding places where the vendor is guaranteed payment? I'd very much like an explanation of that statement.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 07:38:47 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 29, 2013, 05:46:59 pmSo, on an electronics forum, where we are debating the purchasing mechanisms of test gear, your statement that "most electronics gear" can be had in the EU for the same price was not referring to test gear, and it was my failure in not understanding that? I guess "most test gear is cheaper" must be like "most credit card statements say you can't send images" - as in "complete bollocks but I'll say it anyway"QuoteYou just proved my point. If you read your own linked article, you will see what nowhere does it state "consumers just accept it" as a reason for prices being higher in Europe.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 08:19:24 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 29, 2013, 06:44:11 pmI don't have the time or motivation to perform the same level of Googling as I think you are doing to push your point. It is my experience that many engineer/technical people have a level of inherent distrust of sales/marketing types and even sometimes have a chip on their shoulder towards such. I believe some of that is coming through in this thread.A few points, however.1) I was mistaken - PCI compliance is required for all vendors except Level 4. It's written on your own link that level 4 merchants are at the discretion of their payment processor. I know this to be true because Wells Fargo and Card Services International both do not require PCI compliance for level 4 vendors.2) California laws apply only in California - and the law does not say that a vendor may not require the customer to furnish additional data.3) Per your earlier claims, I believe your statements that your card agreements specifically prohibit you from sending an image of your card are untrue. It is not likely that someone would be so familiar with their card agreement that they could quote such a clause off the cuff. Furthermore, here's the proofhttp://www.consumerfinance.gov/credit-cards/agreements/Anyone can search for "image" or "transmit" or whatever terms they like and see that the claim that it's spelled out in your agreement is bollocks. Also, the follow on claim that sending the data TE requires would be "gross negligence" and cases have been won and lost in court over this is further bollocks - again, it is not reasonable that someone would be so familiar with the subject as to know of such cases off the cuff.It is my observation that people have various beliefs and often represent those beliefs are being factually true... when questioned, they get irritated and scour the internet for data to support their beliefs. My comments on this thread are coming from experience. I have a merchant account that I pay a $30 monthly additional PCI-non-compliance fee for, and that's why I know PCI compliance is not mandatory. I've had to ask the question of Visa, MasterCard and Amex before if I can/should verify the address of an international customer and been told that it's OK and reasonable to do so - which is why I know that is allowed.I think there is an overwhelming amount of "I think it's true therefore I will state it as factually true" going on in this thread. Examples being the claims of "most credit card agreements say...." when they do not, and "lots of court cases wound up as...", when they do not. And "equipment isn't even cheaper there" when it is, and so on.And the sad part of that is it all takes away from the actual issue at hand. Some folks are unable to overcome their angst that a vendor wants to avoid losing money that they are putting logic by the wayside. The story about the dutch company asking for copies of the card prove that the prior claims of "how come these American companies..." false.At the end of the day, TE is free to enact whatever policies they like in doing business. And people are free to buy from them or not. It seems they want to make things as easy as possible, but some folks are intent on running them off the forum. I think they ought to just mandate that all shipments by by FedEx or UPS, then I can have a laugh at the ensuing squealing

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 08:25:27 pm
content: hahh lol if i could have anything electronics related here even in pad with euro not our currency for the same price as the us i would buy here the stuffs but when most of the shops charge the same number everywhere just the currency changes thats pisses me off cos there is a huge difference between usd,GBP,euro, they mostly dont brother to cenvert it properly just use the same number and use the local currency this way they earn more profit.... be it consumer electronics or specialized gear

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 08:28:39 pm
content: Quote from: M. András on April 29, 2013, 08:25:27 pmWait, haven't you heard? Most electronics gear costs the same in Europe as the USA! You and I must shop on different websites where the EU prices are higherIt's our own fault anyway for accepting those prices - it's not about the costs for the vendor!

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 08:39:12 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 29, 2013, 08:19:24 pmAre they really? I find that very hard to believe.

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 08:39:35 pm
content: yeah lol. just look at the farnell prices, ohh and i forgot they charge vat on top of that same number as used in america for pricing of the item it doesnt matter what, everything is done the same, i bought my fluke 289 fvf kit from the local distributor here, cos the eu prices and that converted to our, it reached over 850 usd converted back from our currency its a damn huge difference just for an example and its mostly due to the usdprice->eur->*local vat. after this its mostly 1.5x the usd price sometimes 2 times

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 08:41:21 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 29, 2013, 07:24:21 pmCan you read Danish legal texts?

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 09:03:42 pm
content: Quote from: Tepe on April 29, 2013, 08:41:21 pmNo, I do not speak Danish. But anything can be translated.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 09:07:18 pm
content: Quote from: Tepe on April 29, 2013, 08:39:12 pmOf course. Any company may conduct business however they like provided they operate within the law. And as you proved earlier, they are allowed to request a copy of the card if they want to. Do you think TE is obligated to sell to you or anyone else in the manner of the customers choosing?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 05:56:17 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 29, 2013, 08:19:24 pmAre you sure?Q: What are the PCI compliance deadlines?A: All merchant that stores, processes or transmits cardholder data must be compliant now. However, as a Level 4 merchant, you will have to refer to your merchant bank for their specificvalidationrequirements and deadlines.andQ: What does a small-to-medium sized business (Level 4 merchant) have to do in order to satisfy the PCI requirements?A: To satisfy the requirements of PCI, a merchant must complete the following steps:• Identify your Validation Type as defined by PCI DSS. This is used to determine which Self Assessment Questionnaire is appropriate for your business.• Complete the Self-Assessment Questionnaire according to the instructions in the Self- Assessment Questionnaire Instructions and Guidelines.• Complete and obtain evidence of a passing vulnerability scan with a PCI SSC Approved Scanning Vendor (ASV). Note scanning does not apply to all merchants. It is required for Validation Type 4 and 5 – those merchants with external facing IP addresses. Basically if you electronically store cardholder information or if your processing systems have any internet connectivity, a quarterly scan by an approved scanning vendor is required.• Complete the relevant Attestation of Compliance in its entirety (located in the SAQ tool).• Submit the SAQ, evidence of a passing scan (if applicable), and the Attestation of Compliance, along with any other requested documentation, to your acquirer.and (again) most importantly:• I’m a small merchant with very few card transactions; do I need to be compliant with PCI DSS?All merchants, small or large, need to be PCI compliant. The payment brands have collectively adopted PCI DSS as the requirement for organizations that process, store or transmit payment cardholder data.QuoteHad you actually read what was written on the link I provided then you might have noticed this:The remaining information in this section pertains specifically to California, except for the section entitled “Paying by Credit Card: MasterCard and Visa Rules,” which appliesnationwide.They are talking about this section:2b. Paying by Credit Card: MasterCard and Visa RulesCan merchants accepting MasterCard or Visa require customers to show a driver’s license or other identification as a condition of credit card acceptance?While merchants may ask a customer for identification, in most situations,a merchant may not condition acceptance of a Visa or MasterCard credit card upon the customer presenting identification.In other words, you can refuse to provide identification, and the merchant still must accept your credit card. Many merchants are unaware of this rule or simply choose to ignore it.Be aware that identification may be required for purposes other than the credit card transaction, for example, when purchasing alcohol, tobacco products, or certain medications. Identification may also be required for unusual transactions flagged during the authorization process.QuoteThanks for the link. Unfortunately this is "An official website of the United States Government" and irrelevant as it covers US CC agrements. Most non-US customers will however have a CC from their local CC provider.In addition, it's not that asking for images of the CC is the problem (PCI-DSS allows asking for images of thefrontof th card), however requiring that customers send this via plain text email together with further sensitive data is not just a violation of PCI-DSS (which requires transmissions to be secure and certified!), it's just plain stupid. If the latter isn't obvious for you then please go ans ask someone who knows something about computers (you have IT staff in your company I suppose?) to tell you why sending sensitive data over email is not much better than posting the scans on an open website.QuoteYes, for US T&C maybe. Relevant for US citizens, not for customers from abroad. And probably one of the many reasons for the large amount of CC fraud in the US.QuoteWell, since I'm both an Engineer and some of the time a sales guy, I tend to read that stuff. I haven't recorded the case numbers but I'll see if I can find the references. But beware, these are cases that happened in Europe, not the US.QuoteNo, the links are there to support what I said, period. And especially the onces about PCI-DSS compliance are directly from the source.I don't cite just some odd blog that happen to say the same I do.QuoteAnd still you were obviously wrong on so many levels (PCI-DSS compliance requirements, fraud levels US vs rest of the world). It seems in fact that you're so overconfident in yyourself that you're dismissing everything which says to the contrary as bollocks.And, quite frankly, in this day and age it is highly embarrassing for any merchant who deals internationally to not know that plain text email in inadequate for sending sensitive data, and I would expect him to know about very basic marketing stuff like market-adaptive pricing.QuoteNo, they are not. They are bound by laws and regulations in their country, and as a merchant accepting CC payments they are also bound to be PCI-DSS compliant (not necessarily certified, but they must be compliant, period).In addition, anyone who is at least on a basic level computer-literate knows why sensing CC data over email is a very stupid idea, it's a fact like the one that the sun goes up every day. That you obviously don't know is either a lack of knowledge in an important area or willfull ignorance to the detriment of your customers.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 06:59:46 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 29, 2013, 09:07:18 pmWithin the law, yes. And, as has been pointed out by other posters, within the other rules and agreements they have entered into with payment providers, etc.Quote from: Corporate666 on April 29, 2013, 09:07:18 pmNo, I quoted a representitive for saying that it was within the rules in DK. That doesn't tell us anything about whether it is okay for tequipment.net. I happen to think that it probably is. I also agree with the representative that it is an ill adviced strategy.Quote from: Corporate666 on April 29, 2013, 09:07:18 pmThat depends on US law and TE's obligations. As Wuerstchenhund wrote, "you can refuse to provide identification, and the merchant still must accept your credit card."What TE ought to do is to use 3-D Secure (Verified by Visa, Mastercard Secure Code, etc.)It offers them a far more reliable check of the authenticity than any number of possibly bogus scanned printouts. It doesn't have to cost them anything extra and it will save everybody involved time.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 07:34:40 am
content: QuoteYou said (and I quote) "might not even be legal". As I have already stated but you have failed to understand, legality is defined by the law, not by contracts. What Visa and MasterCard rules state (your text above) are not law, they are VISA/MC rules. You posted the California law link as "proof" that it may not be legal. You were wrong.QuoteYou stated that most credit card rules prohibit the customer from sending images of their card. I stated that I have a Santander, Amex and RBS (all European) cards, and a US Amex, Visa, and MasterCard. I scan my card argreements (among lots of other obscure but potentially important information) and keep them in a folder on my cloud drive. It was trivial for me to quickly check my contracts and none of them state that I am prohibited from sending such information. Furthermore, I have linked to a database of over 300 searchable credit card agreements, not a single one of which contains anything about sending digital images of one's card. Therefore I have proven your claim that "most cards" have such language false, and I believe you fabricated your claim that your cards have clauses that prohibit sending images. Let me know who your cards are with and I will try to get a copy of their T&C, if you want to continue to argue this point.QuoteI'll wait for the proof.QuoteYou are drastically overstating your case. You've put forth false information that you have presented as factual, and you have presented your position is so inarguable that anyone who would disagree would have to be "moronic". It is a mistake that engineers often make in the pursuit of technical accuracy while they disregard how things actually work in business. Case in point... you have stated that requesting a copy of a card statement is illegal (false), adds no validation (false), is trivial to fake (false), is against your card rules (false), does not help prevent fraud and on and on. Yet many merchants do exactly this. Rather than accept that these are intelligent people who know something about running a business, you presume to know more and presume that all their efforts are for naught. But you've also presented falsehoods as facts in presenting your side, which undermines your whole argument. Not to mention the fact that many vendors freely choose this course of action, and they aren't doing it simply because they have nothing better to do, or because they don't know as much about running their businesses as an engineer in a foreign country.Also, "you were wrong about fraud levels for US vs rest of world" - another fabrication. I stated to the other poster "Tepe" that part of what TE was working against was the reason for higher prices. You claimed I was stating that EU card fraud was higher than US which is something I never said.I was incorrect in what merchants were required to maintain PCI compliance and I have accepted my error. I think it's time you do the same regarding your errors.QuoteI think it goes without saying that "free to do business as they want" implies compliant with the law. Why would you feel the need to debate that point and say "no, they must be compliant with the law"? Did you think I was stating they don't have to comply with laws?As for the complaining about the insecurity of email.... Such thinking is why someone who rationalizes things this way would spend countless time and money developing the most robust and secure electronic system they can conceive of to ensure credit card security (to the detriment of time and cost) - while then taking an order and card number by phone. Or arguing that sending a scan of one's credit card statement will compromise their security and is intolerable, while handing over the same card to a waitress in a restaurant.The vast majority of credit card thefts are from people who had access to the card (servers at restaurants, etc). The card is usually quickly used for some purchases, without the card ever being present. That is why a vendor such as TE requesting additional information - like a copy of a statement - is preventing many fraudulent transactions by requesting such. That someone could intercept their email and steal the partial image of a card statement is irrelevant to all but someone overstating their case on the Internet.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 08:15:37 am
content: Quote from: Tepe on April 30, 2013, 06:59:46 amIf we want to be technically accurate, they are only required to comply with the law. Everything else is a contract between private parties. So a vendor is not required to accept a credit card at all. But I think we agree - TE or any other vendor is free to accept an order from you or me or anyone else... or not.Quote from: Corporate666 on April 29, 2013, 09:07:18 pmNo, I quoted a representitive for saying that it was within the rules in DK. That doesn't tell us anything about whether it is okay for tequipment.net. I happen to think that it probably is. I also agree with the representative that it is an ill adviced strategy.For the avoidance of further doubt:http://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/card-acceptance-guidelines-for-visa-merchants.pdfPage 56 states that for international transactions where AVS is not available, the merchant should take further steps to verify the address. Page 64 states that some warning signs include first time customers, and requests to ship to international destinations. Page 65 states the obvious - that a merchant should trust their instincts, and what is not stated directly, but is true, is that if a vendor ships to an unverified address (which means anything outside the USA/Canada where AVS does not work), then they are liable for a chargeback. The vendor is not required to take any order... so they can cancel it for any reason they like.Quote from: Corporate666 on April 29, 2013, 09:07:18 pmWell, congratulations, I think you are the first poster who has suggested something that actually helps the situation!I agree, 3D secure would be a good option. Unfortunately, not all card issuers support it - so if TE made it a requirement, it would mean some/many customers would not be able to buy. Showing a copy of their statement is something all customers are able to do - although the "customer satisfaction" of both is obviously a contentious issue. 3D secure does also add additional cost to the vendor.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 10:50:39 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 30, 2013, 08:15:37 amExcellent example of how things are different in different parts of the world.I do not pay my provider extra for 3-D Secure. We can't handle card transactions over the phone. They have to be handled electronically. Even a physical shop is not allowed use a manual imprinter here (since Januray 1, 2008 ).And CC statements don't exist.

author: baljemmett
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 10:57:08 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 30, 2013, 07:34:40 amHmm - you are aware that in many places, paying by card in person (in a restaurant, a shop, etc.) no longer involves giving someone else your card at all, right? I can't remember the last time anybody but me touched any of my credit cards...

author: smoothtalker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2013, 03:06:21 am
content: heads-up guys, Tequipment is still discriminating against international buyers. I've tried making a purchase recently and they kept asking me for credit details like some criminal. I gave up talking to them and requested cancellation of my order.I then placed another identical order using a USA based Amex. Again, the same old nonsense happened, they shoot me an email asking for credit details claiming i'm some fraud case.My purchase amount was only $100. A company of their size is afraid of losing $100? and risking their reputation by accusing someone of fraud? Ridiculous. My country has a credit rating of AAA by S&P and Moody's. Much better ratings than Tequipment I'm sure. joke.

author: tequipment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2013, 04:27:49 am
content: Everyone...I dont know how to be more honest. We get a lot of fraud overseas. We love our customers. We do. I would like to sell items and make it easier. Even with our requirements we lose money sometimes. I would love it if everyone is honest.Tell me how to make it easier yet not lose my shirt in the process. I am very open to ideas.ThanksEvan CirelliTEquipment.NEThttp://www.tequipment.net/vice-president-biography/

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2013, 11:59:29 am
content: In the EU it is not common to use a credit card. Many people don't even have one or find it clumsy to use (as you have noticed already). That is the first thing a US company needs to realise when doing business in the EU. In quite a few EU countries there are local online payment systems (called iDeal in the Netherlands) which are instant wire transfers which cannot be reversed. You could ask a web-payment provider to handle these kind of transactions for your website. In the last two years a lot of webshops in Europe moved away from Paypal and use payment providers which support a wide variety of these instant wire transfers. The instant wire transfer systems have become the defacto standard in some countries. For example the iDeal system in the Netherlands handled over 7 billion Euros worth of transactions in 2011. Another option is to accept wire transfers directly but these are sooo slow in the US.

author: tequipment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2013, 03:06:11 am
content: Yeah we can do wires but there is a 20 dollar bank fee when we take a wire. We will do wires and can send a proforma. However most people dont want to send wires unless its an ongoing business relationship. I'll look into the method you described.

author: smoothtalker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2013, 04:11:44 pm
content: Evan,Actually I was pretty mad over how Tequipment handled my case. My email to you receive no reply. Very poor attitude. But I understand your concerns over fraud, and I will not comment further on that.Actually.. I managed to bypass your fraud protection system while overseas.But you're lucky, I'm not a fraud case. I am a genuine customer (soon to be gone).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2013, 07:52:08 pm
content: The deal has to be very good to get something cheaper from the US anyway. If I order a Rigol DS1074Z from Tequipment it costs €579,- including delivery, customs charges and VAT. If I order it from Batronix it costs me €535,50