Manual vs. Automatic Transmission, Advice Needed - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 05:24:23 pm
content: Hi folks,I may be in Europe some time in the near future and possibly renting a car. One skill I never acquired in North America was driving stick and I sort of regret not having that option. It may make it more flexible and cheaper to find rentals and also open up my eyes to a method of driving that I may actually enjoy. A friend of mine has a manual car (Mazda) here and offered to teach me, which I will eventually take up on that offer. Whether or not I end up renting a car, I still think it is worthwhile to at least have a bit of an idea of what it means.Now I've gone over all the pros and cons, articles and videos comparing auto vs. manual. I don't want to turn this thread into a debate on these technologies. I understand that today auto is rivalling or beating manual in terms of fuel economy, acceleration speed, etc... I know that there is a lot more ELECTRONIC stuff happening in transmissions these days, and that it is no longer just a large MECHANICAL beast. That's what I want to focus on, this being an electronics forum.I've popped my head into a few cars lately as I'm started to gain an interest in trying to learn something other than the auto I'm used to... just to see what they have in between the seats and I've seen anywhere from a traditional "stick" to completely automatical shifter, and then I've also seen quite a few of these strange looking knob-like things. Either they are to control the infotainment system or they are related to shifting gears (which I've also seen on the steering wheel). There is also electronically-controlled shifting. So how do these actually compare and what is happening? What do paddle-shifters do actually mechanically? Are they actually working on a clutch-based manual type transmission or messing around with an automatic by electronically controlling it's ability to shift (keeping it locked down) or some kind of hybrid? Do the electronic systems limit you so you can't break the car (sensing when it is appropriate and not appropriate) or is it built in a way that there is a fail-safe?Lastly, for practical purposes am I going to go completely bonkers learning manual at this point, do you have to continually practice it or will it completely fade away, and should I be worried about travelling and renting? Aside from travelling, is it something I want to learn to keep my car experience options open in the future?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 05:39:50 pm
content: Dual clutch transmissions seem almost perfect in theory but in practice, not many do it right.I would say that CVTs and fixed gear drivetrains are going to be the norm given the trend towards hybrid and electric cars. One exception is Hyundai with the hybrid version of the Sonata still using a modified DCT.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 05:46:46 pm
content: There is no reason to get a manual unless you like it. Paddle shifters are just inputs to the transmission computer. The shifter if in the console will still have a mechanical connection if it's a cheaper car or older. Newer cars are all electric. Automated manuals are exactly what you think, a computer controlled manual transmission. I would stay away from most of those unless you have money. Maintenance can be troublesome and they can require a setup when replacing the clutch that you may not be able to do. You also have some hydraulics to go wrong in addition to the mechanical bits. They will keep you from doing bad things though where a pure manual will let you break things by over revving.Edit since people are adding their prefs: I have 2 manual cars, one auto, and 1 manual motorcycle (yes there are some autos).

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 05:48:24 pm
content: These things have gotten so arcane that there is no simple answer. I guess I am old school in that I only drive stick shift. I think automatic takes away too much control; I like to shift when it seems appropriate. And for the most part, the human mind is superior to technology when time is not too much an issue.I have owned many cars over my more than half a century of driving and the ones that had automatic transmissions were not pleasant for me to drive. I kept thinking 'why isn't it shifting' or 'what is it shifting for' or 'this thing is purposely trying to waste fuel or wear out my engine'.Not to say I am so smart that I know what gear to use but frankly I would rather make my own mistakes.Unfortunately I am so much in the minority that you pretty much can't buy a car with stick shift any more, or at least a car I'd be willing to own. My current car is a 1994 model and when it wears out I don't have any idea what I will drive. Maybe I will be too old to drive or will get one of those frightening driverless cars.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 05:58:31 pm
content: Being able to drive a manual is a useful skill, but becomes a little less-so every year. If you enjoy driving I'd say absolutely learn, it can be a lot of fun. If you just learn the basics and then never do it again it will be hard to jump in a car years later and drive smoothly.Where the manual has the most impact is on smaller cars with smaller engines. It makes them way more fun to drive.For myself I find it very weird to drive an automatic as every car I have owned has been manual.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 06:32:44 pm
content: I think you can rent automatic transmission cars in Europe but they will probably cost a bit more. So far I have driven mostly cars with a manual transmission but I wouldn't mind having a car with an automatic transmission if one crosses my path. Manual shifting does give more control because you can shift down before taking over a car or a truck.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 06:41:23 pm
content: On every automatic transmission car today, punching the accelerator all the way down will execute a downshift so you can pass. What most automatics don't (yet) know how to do is shift down automatically when descending a long hill, which can cause the brake fluid to boil if you control speed using the brakes. That's why they have "PRND21" on the lever, so you can limit them to a low gear when descending hills.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 06:41:50 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on May 22, 2019, 05:39:50 pmThe Golf GTE is also a (plug-in) hybrid with a DCT, technology is also seen in Passat GTE too.Personally I cannot go back from a DCT in my GTE after driving manual and regular auto. The DCT is so smooth. It has the smoothness of a well-driven manual at low speeds, but has almost instant gear changes. The hybrid drivetrain in my car also helps of course here.The one big disadvantage of the DCT in my car is it can sometimes get unsure about what gear to be in. A common enough example is coming up to a roundabout, slowing down to check it is clear but approaching the roundabout at say 25 mph. Since you are still going fast enough for 4th or 5th gear the car is getting ready for just one lower gear. But when you put your foot down to move onto the roundabout, it doesn't expect it and needs to select say 2nd gear for the acceleration. This can take some time for it to get all the mechanical pieces in the right position, so there's about a second delay or so where the car barely moves. If you use the flappy-paddle gear selectors to select the desired lower gear though, the car will respond immediately; it just needs a hint from the human.One big benefit of an auto transmission in a modern car is that many of the active features (adaptive cruise control, automatic emergency braking, sometimes self-parking) are available at all speeds. My car will happily keep up with stop and go traffic all the way down to stationary speeds and automatically restart with just a tap of the accelerator. It makes traffic jams so much less stressful, your left foot really gets a work out in traffic jams in the UK, especially on a hill.Quote from: helius on May 22, 2019, 06:41:23 pmMy car will actually do this, if you descend a long hill and the hybrid battery is too full to take the energy, it will switch on the engine in an air-braking mode only and use the gears and engine to slow down. It does not burn fuel in this mode, it will even slip the 3rd clutch to ensure the engine blends in smoothly.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 06:46:25 pm
content: If you're looking to hire a manual car in Europe it would definitely be worth taking up the offer of the lessons, you'll have enough to concentrate on with road system differences without having to worry about fumbling with the gears too. Maybe consider hiring an auto for the first couple of weeks too for the same reason.Forget about flappy paddle and dual clutch models when hiring, they will all be standard gear lever and clutch pedal. Gear pattern is pretty standard BUT make sure you know how to select Reversebeforeyou need it! Other than that, you'll find that the clutch feel and bite point varies a bit from model to model but it only takes a few minutes to get used to the differences.The lever neutral position between 3rd and 4th so it's up and down for those and you need side pressure one way to select 1st and 2nd and the other way for 5th and Reverse (there's always some form of safety interlock to get reverse). The only other tip I can think of is don't grip the gear lever like a knob, but guide it where you want it to go with the palm of your hand, the gates on the box work a lot better and smoother that way.P.S. They will all be nicer to drive than what you're used to!

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 06:54:48 pm
content: In my experience renting in Europe varies by location and agency. In Germany and Switzerland I often find that they want to put me in an automatic because I'm American. In the UK, especially with smaller cars (which you really want if you venture west into the narrow little roads with tall hedges) they simply don't have any automatics. I recommend you not attempt to take up left-handed manual operation if you are new at it....As far as learning and remembering, if you have a lot of experience like I do, you won't forget. However, if you have just learned, the additional attention you need to pay to not snubbing the engine and shifting at the correct times may detract from your ability to safely operate the car otherwise, especially in traffic. Everyone has their limitations--mine were reached trying to drive a small right-hand drive Maruti in Delhi.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 06:57:39 pm
content: variomatic !

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 06:57:55 pm
content: Quote from: edy on May 22, 2019, 05:24:23 pmOnce you really learn it, it becomes pretty close to second nature. Sure, you'll forget rolling up to a red light and stall the car a few times, but after about a month of driving manual, those days will be behind you. I doubt I stall the car or grind a gear even once a year now, but it's not "never ever". It's not something that comes quite as "you get it like a light switch" as riding a bike, though, meaning you can't really just practice for 15 minutes in a parking lot, then drive around town for a few hours and be totally confident. Starting from a dead stop on hills is something that takes a little practice. Don't sit at a very long light with the clutch pedal depressed the entire time.Quote from: edy on May 22, 2019, 05:24:23 pmPay (slightly) extra to rent an automatic and make your travels easy and low-stress. Pay attention to the road and directions; the signage and driving styles will already be a little different. Don't add "novice manual transmission driver" to the mix.Since I daily drove manual for many, many years, I always allow myself to rent manual transmission cars in Europe. I think I get one less than 1 time in 4 (which sucks, because I really would prefer one in general). Point being, you will not realistically be limited in Western Europe if you can only drive automatic.If you want to improve your visit experience and flexibility, spend your time learning a bit of the native languages or researching the area rather than on learning to drive a manual.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 07:04:57 pm
content: I have been in situations in Europe where only manual transmission rentals are available so it is a skill well worth having. Rentals do tend to have pretty vanilla power trains so don't worry about the exotic configurations. It is a skill so will decay over time, but never goes away completely and comes back quickly with practice. Unfortunately the things that make driving stick easier (lots of torque, closely spaced gears and so on) aren't the forte of rentals.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 07:05:18 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on May 22, 2019, 06:57:39 pmYuk! The one exception to nicer!

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 07:36:33 pm
content: A modern automatic gearbox beats a manual in every way I can think of. If you're thinking of buying a car, there are different types of auto you need to consider based on your driving and requirements. Dual-clutch models for example present themselves like a conventional auto in the cabin but can be damaged by doing the wrong thing. Most autos have the ability to shift manually (either with the gear stick, steering wheel paddles or both). Whether it will "protect" the gearbox if you go too far, not sure but am not willing to try. I can confirm though that in my Volvo, it has no issues manually being pushed to red-line, but I haven't attempted to go any further.In Australia (and I suspect many parts of the Western world), manual is a dying breed. Most new car models no longer offer the choice of a manual transmission and that's a trend that's increasing.As for learning manual, I never learnt when I was young but I learnt as I went. It's not terribly hard to pick up. I can count on one hand the number of times in my life where I've had to drive a manual because nothing else was available.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 07:44:25 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on May 22, 2019, 07:36:33 pmClearly a disconnect between Australia / Far East / US / Canada and Europe / UK then.

author: larrybl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 08:12:18 pm
content: I drive all 3,95 Camry W/ 5 Speed Manual.Pros. Fun, can bump start if battery is dead, More control on slick roads, Not likely to be stolen.07 Ranger, Automatic.Con, need to turn O/D off when towing or it shifts excessively.11 Focus, Dual Dry Clutchcon, been in the shop three times in the last two years for clutch pack and shifter module replacements, along with several other recalls.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 08:15:56 pm
content: Quote from: edy on May 22, 2019, 05:24:23 pmPredictably the thread turns into a discussion comparing shift systems and pretty much ignores the questions asked in the OP.Such is the Internet.In Europe you may find automatics for rent at a higher price or they may be not available on days of high demand.A stick shift is a stick shift and there is no electronics to be aware or concerned about. It is as basic and simple as you can get.I rent several times a month and very rarely do they run out of the model I reserved. Some months ago they "upgraded" me to a Dacia with double clutch gearbox and it was the worst piece of crap. It would stall and hiccup when shifting and there is no way I am ever taking one again. But stick shifts are very basic and you can learn to shift in very few hours' practice.In the UK my reflex was to shift with my right hand and I would hit the door of the car before waking up and using my left hand. It becomes so automatic you do it without thinking.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 08:18:50 pm
content: There are certain tricks you can do on a stick shift but not possible elsewhere. Some tricks can be a major fuel saver.My family car is a 1983 SAIC Volkswagen Santana 1.8L 5-speed manual (manufactured in 2011 really - that is a long lasting model in China) and one of the most common tricks I have been using is skipping certain gears, usually the 2nd when starting up on flat road, or 1st if starting on a decline. This trick is one of the fuel savers I have been talking about.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 08:21:00 pm
content: Quote from: helius on May 22, 2019, 06:41:23 pmOn the VW I used to drive regulary there was a huge lag between putting your foot down and getting some accelleration. The gearbox also shifted up too far so the engine didn't have any power.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 08:37:07 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on May 22, 2019, 07:04:57 pmMy experience is it varies between countries and the size of car being rented. In Germany its usually easy to get an automatic for most sizes of car. In the UK you'll need to book well in advance if you want an automatic for anything smaller than about a BMW 5 class of car.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 09:28:54 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 22, 2019, 08:37:07 pmThanks for the all the input so far.... I may be in southern Europe along the Mediterranean, i.e. Spain, southern France, Italy. Probably a small car rental. Manual fairly likely to be one of the only options, with automatic costing a small fortune more?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 10:16:48 pm
content: Quote from: larrybl on May 22, 2019, 08:12:18 pmI think the problem you have is that it's a Ford. Ford aren't exactly known for making high quality vehicles.Over here, their PowerShift transmission is affectionately known as "PowerShit". Last year Ford wasfined$10 million by the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission.Quote from: technix on May 22, 2019, 08:18:50 pmThis is possible in most automatics. For example, in my car (with an 8-speed Automatic), I can start in 3rd gear if I wanted to (useful for very slippery/snowy conditions).

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 10:26:49 pm
content: Quote from: edy on May 22, 2019, 09:28:54 pmI drove only manual transmissions for decades, but now have a CVT automatic, which I like.Two years ago, I rented a car when I went to Italy, renting in Florence. I reserved a manual, but when I got there, the only available car was automatic. It was a diesel powered VW Golf.On my last Mexican vacation, the ability to drive a manual transmission proved essential, though.Small sample size, I know. I was surprised and somewhat annoyed to get an automatic in Italy, but they do exist. It was the cheapest rental I could find online. I've forgotten the company name, but I'm sure it wasn't Hertz, Avis, National, Enterprise, Budget, or any other name I had heard of in the USA.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 10:34:43 pm
content: Quote from: bob91343 on May 22, 2019, 05:48:24 pmMaybe your next car will be electric?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 10:38:10 pm
content: In the UK, if you take the driving test in a manual car, you get a licence allowing you to drive manual or automatic transmissions. If you take the test in an automatic car, your licence only allows you to drive automatics.Caveat: that used to be the case, but I haven't verified that recently.But do youreallywant to be driving in unfamiliar circumstances using technology that is relatively unfamiliar to you? Depending on where you are going, the roads, drivers and styles may beverydifferent. Hint: Sicily (and by extension southern Italy) isverydifferent to northern Europe(Sicily is fine,providedyou understand the different mentality when driving)

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 10:41:46 pm
content: Quote from: technix on May 22, 2019, 08:18:50 pmMost newer automatics have no problems starting in a higher gear than first. It's all about economy for most of them.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 10:55:51 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 22, 2019, 10:38:10 pmThat's still the case. It typically takes twice the number of hours of teaching to get a manual licence in the UK. If you exchange a US or Canadian licence for a UK one, you get an automatic only licence.If you have not been tested in a manual car, I don't think you can use your licence to drive a manual car in most European countries. You certainly can't in the UK. So, you are forced to rent an automatic, even if the options for automatics are very limited. An an example, friends from HK visited us recently in the UK. They only have automatic licences, like most people in HK, so they had to rent an automatic. Even though they had booked the car a couple of week before their trip, they had to wait 4 hours at the rental place at Heathrow airport before a suitable automatic car was actually available. It can be a serious PITA.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 11:01:23 pm
content: Take a few lessons with a basic stick model car and see how you go.Just do it, no hesitation, no negatives, get in and give it a go.The more clutch stalls and shaky starts in the beginning, the better for learning.And don't be hard on yourself, the more fails the better = no fails in the futureBest to practice on a quiet country road or wide long side street with minimal traffic till you get the hang of it.Practice starting on hills and reversing as well, very important. Make friends with the handbrake tooOnce you get the up vs down dual foot thing going smoothly, you're in business.If it gets frustratingstop right there and take it up again tomorrow etcIf you have the option of choosing different model manual cars to learn on, do it.They all have different and or quirky gear shift characteristics,and you won't freak out if ever having to drive a stiff clutch/sticky gearstick car or van,especially in some remote place where car type hire options are limitedFWIW I think in 'manual' mode even when driving automatics, and make good use of the selections available,especially for hills and or a full load of passengers etc,it's a lot easier on the car's auto shift decision thinking and the sizzling brakes = things run cooler, the driver has better control, safer,and saves money by not stressing parts to their limit

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 12:00:43 am
content: Quote from: coppice on May 22, 2019, 10:55:51 pmAs far as I know (and I've had my drivers license for about 25+ years in Canada) there was no extra "badge" or "restriction" written on our licenses that specify AUTO vs. MANUAL training.... Does anyone here from Canada know if this is the case? Maybe in UK but here there is no way to know if someone has training or not based on their drivers license card. I was tested and passed in an 1980 Oldsmobile Cutlass with an automatic transmission that by the time I was getting licensed (~1993) was already slipping constantly into Neutral until I finally killed it trying to shake it out of a snow rut by shifting from FWD to REV several times (it was ready for the wrecking yard).So I wonder if someone in Spain/France/Italy is going to give you crap if they see you are from Canada and not let you rent the manual car, or maybe they give you a chance to at least get in and see if you can drive it off without stalling to prove your worth. That's why I would prefer to at least get a bit of a feel so I know (a) whether I can get the hang of it fairly quickly, and (b) whether I enjoy it, and (c) whether in the future I may want to consider a different car or maybe a "classic" with a manual transmission to enjoy weekends (not driving in traffic).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 12:24:14 am
content: You should definitely try learning to drive a manual, a slushbox takes all of the joy out of driving, in fact I'd say you don't even really drive an automatic, you just sort of aim. Operating a manual gearbox makes you a more engaged, more attentive driver who is more in tune to what the car is doing. You have more control and less inclination to engage in activities other than driving while behind the wheel.I so loathe automatics that I kind of wish they had never been invented. It's so hard to even find a nicer car these days that even offers one. The only other thing I'd even consider is an EV.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 12:28:13 am
content: Something else I'll say, the very first time I ever tried driving a stick was waaaaay easier to get the hang of than driving on the "wrong" side of the road. Driving in the uk was much MUCH harder than I would have thought. Even riding as a passenger I never fully got used to, left turns especially tended to trigger my "oh shit" reflex every time.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 12:32:08 am
content: Quote from: edy on May 23, 2019, 12:00:43 amLet me reiterate for clarity.The driving styles, "manners" and available space on the roads (and in car parks) are very different in Europe.I strongly suggest you will have enough to learn without also having to deal with a manual transmission.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 01:02:49 am
content: That's definitely something I've heard from relatives who go to other countries, worrying about what you're driving probably shouldn't be something you're doing.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 01:10:41 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 23, 2019, 12:28:13 amDriving on the "non-native" side of the road is, indeed, tough to do the first few times you do it, and takes ages to feel natural. However, it seems the OP is from a left hand drive country, and targeting other left hand drive countries.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 01:56:08 am
content: Quote from: technix on May 22, 2019, 08:18:50 pmI can start my car in third gear (direct drive) even up a hill because the engine has enough low-end torque it probably doesn't need anything other than the torque converter, although I think it's better for fuel efficiency (not that I really care all that much...) to start in first and accelerate quickly between shifts.(The transmission is a 700R4 with a semiautomatic valvebody. Your guess at what sort of engine it's behind...)

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 02:04:08 am
content: Quote from: edy on May 22, 2019, 05:24:23 pmThat is generous of your friend. Or maybe she does not know the cost involved. At least in my experience, teaching someone to drive a manual transmission always involves serious wear, like 50,000 miles worth, on the clutch. Sometimes it involves a broken u-joint or damaged cv-joint.As far as your other questions, there are several ways to build an automatic or even manual transmission and the only consistent definitions seem to apply to single and dual clutch manual transmissions. Automatic and "automatic manual" transmissions can use all kinds of control and mechanical schemes. I know someone who rebuilt an automatic transmission with a manual clutch in place of the torque converter for drag racing and instead of the typical shifting pattern, it could be set to start in second gear and supported completely manual shifting.I think CVTs are a dead end because of wear issues at least in passenger vehicles. Dual clutch manual transmissions suffer from low power per size making them typically underpowered to fit into the space that some other transmission would occupy. I have always preferred manual transmissions to automatic transmissions of any type simply because there is less to go wrong; a manual transmission is more likely to fail gracefully instead of completely dying in an instant. On the other hand, automatic transmissions are more convenient for stop and go traffic and some types of offroading.I suspect electric vehicles will gradually displace the need for transmissions in commuting applications.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 03:05:08 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 23, 2019, 12:28:13 amHave you tried riding as front seat passenger in a LHD car in the UK?A friend had a little LHD DAF, which he drove like a madman.I remember on one occasion, him wanting to pass a double decker bus.In order to peek down the right side of the bus to see if the way forward was clear, he had to pull out a lot further than a RHD car would, placing me squarely in the middle of the opposite, oncoming lane.Of course, I fared better than my mate, who got a lift home one rainy winter day in an MG "TD" with the top up, but no side windows.He swore there was more water in the car than on the outside.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 03:22:56 am
content: Hire a manual vehicle pimped up to 'Mad Max' standards,and let the Europeans drive as they doMake sure you have the universal middle finger trained and at the ready at all times,...so no need to understand any foreign languages during traffic encounters

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 03:32:44 am
content: Quote from: edy on May 22, 2019, 09:28:54 pmMy experience of renting cars in the UK (from Heathrow airport) is that all the small/compact cars are going to be manual transmission. At the rental desk when they see my California license they sometimes give me a funny look and ask "Are you sure you can drive it?"To get an automatic you generally need to go upscale to a luxury vehicle like an Audi or BMW. I am sure the rest of Europe will be similar. You will have to pay more for an automatic and will likely have to reserve it ahead of time to make sure it is available.That said, it will take a little while driving a manual transmission car to get the hang of it, and you certainly don't want to learn in a strange country on unfamiliar roads while trying to get used to strange road layouts. So do rent an automatic if you have not already learned how to drive stick.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 03:42:07 am
content: Learning to drive a manual transmission using a rental car is actually one of the better ways to do it since it is their clutch you will be wearing out.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 03:58:01 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 23, 2019, 02:04:08 amToyota seems to have gotten it right - the ones used in the Prius almost never fail, even well after 100k miles.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 04:45:30 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on May 22, 2019, 07:36:33 pmExcept that clutches are much much cheaper than rebuilds of automatic transmissions. A good driver with a well designed clutch and manual transmission can expect to get close to the same number of miles per clutch as most get from an automatic transmission. In many parts of the US, a manual transmission is better theft deterrent than an alarm.But I learned to drive with manual transmissions. The first I remember driving solo was on my grandfather's farm with a 38 Ford truck 4 speed compound low that I had to double clutch to change from 2nd to 3rd gear as it wasn't synchromesh. I still have the same truck that my grandfather bought new; I don't know how many clutches it has had, but the transmission has never been rebuilt.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 05:57:42 am
content: I had no idea there were so many of us who like stick shifts better than slush boxes. I just wish the market was such that sticks were still available.My first cars were stick, three speed on the steering column. My first floor shift was an MGA. By then I had bought an automatic piece of garbage that would pop out of gear now and then. A new car but never acted up for the mechanic. I used to roll my eyes while pushing the pedal down to hear the engine laboring but the car still thinking about moving. At that point I stopped owning US made cars and never regretted that decision.I can't advise the OP because it's a complex situation and I am not privy to all the details. But if you are here in a technical forum one might think you are technically minded and thus more likely to be willing to drive a car rather than the other way around.

author: geekGee
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 06:14:44 am
content: I have only ever owned manual transmission vehicles... I don't particularly like automatic transmissions. It was a pain when I purchased my last vehicle as I didn't have time to special order one and manual transmission options in stock were very limited.Last year my car had to go off the road for about 6 weeks for repairs and I was given an automatic transmission loaner by the dealer. I, obviously, didn't like it and found it took a few days to adapt to clutching again when I got my car back.The only time I like an automatic is when driving in countries that drive on the right side of the road. We drive on the left here in Bermuda. In that case between driving on both a different side of the road and the vehicle, not having to manually shift gears is just one less thing to have to focus on. When I last drove in the UK, who also drive on the left, I rented manual transmission vehicles.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 06:29:30 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 23, 2019, 02:04:08 amThat sounds awfully drastic, can't say I've ever witnessed that. I taught myself in the first vehicle I ever bought myself and got proficient after a couple of weeks, the clutch was still fine when I sold it years later. As long as you have some mechanical understanding of what the clutch does and why it's necessary it's reasonably intuitive to not ride the hell out of it. The tricky part is starting out from a stop, and as long as you practice that on level ground in someplace like an empty parking lot you can take your time and go easy on the car. Once you've got that down it's time to try starting out on a hill.I found that after doing it for a couple weeks it was just like walking, I didn't even have to think about it anymore. Now whenever I drive a car with an automatic I have to conciously stick my left foot out of the way so I don't stab at the clutch pedal that isn't there. Especially since automatics tend to have those great huge brake pedals that intrude into the space where the clutch would be.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 06:36:24 am
content: Quote from: maginnovision on May 22, 2019, 10:41:46 pmThen what about skipping the second gear, or in the case of a hard acceleration on freeway a skip over the fourth gear?Also I don’t think automatics have engine-assisted brake by forcing the transmission into the first gear at speed while stepping hard on the breaks.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 06:42:06 am
content: These days some of the automatics do as well or better on average fuel economy as manuals, that isn't really much issue anymore. With older cars you can get a significant improvement, I got an extra 3-4 mpg when I swapped out the slushbox that came in my current daily driver for the manual that was in my previous car that got rear ended.Even if not for the extra fuel economy it's just so much nicer to drive, feels so much more responsive, I have more control, it feels connected instead of that mushy disconnected feel of an automatic. Another handy thing is the ability to push start the thing if you find yourself with a dead battery or a bad starter, mostly only things those of us preferring older cars have to deal with.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 07:41:41 am
content: Quote from: coppice on May 23, 2019, 01:10:41 amFor me, those key problem points arise when in car parks, single lane road, emerging from petrol stations. Plus when giving directions to another driver, left and right tend to be swapped, so we have had to say "go your way" (crossing oncoming traffic) and "go my way" (not crossing oncoming traffic). Can't explain that.But let me reiterate, driving style is more important that that, and is the reason not to have your attention on the car controls.One anecdote.... I have been places where given a city junction with traffic lights and two lanes in each direction, the cars normally line upthreewide in each direction. And everything just sorts itself out - providing people are paying attention to other cars, not to the gear stick.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 07:44:38 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 23, 2019, 03:42:07 amBut make sure you take outallthe insurance options the car company suggests.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 08:43:17 am
content: It will give you more rental options in Europe, particularly for smaller cars. But as others have said it might not be the best plan to learn whilst also dealing with unfamiliar road layouts etc.Once you're used to it then it pretty much stays in your head. If you've been driving an automatic for a while you'll stall a manual coming up to a red light occasionally, if you've been driving a manual for a while you'll find yourself mashing the floor with your left foot in that same situation. Until a year ago I only drive the very occasional automatic hire car, for the last year I have mostly been driving my girlfriend's electric car, and that feels completely different to any automatic I've ever driven. The best way I can describe it is that it feels like how an automatic should be but never is. I have no problems switching back and forth between my car (manual) and hers.One thing I have noticed is how much I have learned to select gears by engine sound rather than looking at the rev counter or based on speed. It's one of the reasons automatics always feel odd to me, there is an engine note at which I am expecting it to change because that's when I would be almost-subconsciously doing it and my conscious brain gets annoyed that it's not happened. I think it's one of the reasons I don't find EVs as annoying as other autos. My suspicion is that having driven automatics for a long time you'll have that same mental prompt based on engine note and won't really have to think too much about when to change gear.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 10:56:46 am
content: If you're going to southern italy, but in general1) Make sure that you are covered for car theft2) Make photos of the car and every possible bump or scratch BEFORE you leave the rentalThe rentals down there have a lot of dishonest people eager to screw you over.re manual vs automatic transmission.. I've never been fond of automatic, i just don't like it. Luckily many cars also have a sequential mode which lets you decide the gear and when to change and that is a good compromise, i think.Because the roads here in general can become suddently very narrow and if you're on the hills, very steep. I don't think you have something like this in canada (maybe you have narrow, steep roads but not THIS narrow and THIS steep) and i wouldn't want to wait for the transmission to decide when it's the good time to change the gear (hint: too late)If there is a chance for you to be on this kind of terrain.. get a Panda 4x4 and forget about it-I live in the north, at the slopes of the dolomites by the way-

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 12:27:19 pm
content: @ vtwin@cox.netnice touch adding the cig lighter fingerprint recognition start car option...

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 12:36:01 pm
content: Quote from: vtwin@cox.net on May 23, 2019, 12:20:34 pmYeah, that won't work in Europe.

author: vtwin@cox.net
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 12:41:22 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on May 23, 2019, 12:36:01 pmlol yeah.I have a 2017 Corolla S w/ a 6 speed stick as my daily driver. I've been driving a stick for 40 years, I absolutely hate automatics, although my Tundra has one and I tolerate it since I cannot get a Tundra in a stick.My wife is a millennial and I've tried to teach her how to drive my Corolla. I gave up. She "gets it" mentally, but just can't get the coordination down.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 01:31:46 pm
content: Look, the traffic here will be stressful enough for you, do not add the extra stress of the stick.You will face:- Priority to the right- Different traffic signs- Probably unknown languages or driving on the wrong side of the road- French drivers- Too many roundabouts- Cars parking wherever they want- Roads that are not wide enough- Maybe road tolls booths that dont accept your payment method.These are enough to cause a sane person go insane, even if you've lived here forever.Most car rentals will have a 3 series automatic BMW.On top of this, consider not renting a car at all. Most part will have public transport to take you places. I can go to London in 4.5 hours by public transport and 5.5 hours by car. And it is not like canada, that you will absolutely die if your car breaks down or you forget the shotgun in it ad you get attacked by a 8 meter tall bear or a sasquatch.BTW make sure you have the right debit/credit cards available, cause that will cause you more headache than traffic.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 01:50:30 pm
content: Manuals do have the perk that after 4-5 hours of driving with other cars around your left foot has not gone numb from being immobile for hours. Its less of a factor, but having driven between most of australia, Its the difference between 5 rest stops and 9 with an autoat the same Time I'm the kind of weirdo that prefers a variable speed limiter to a cruise control, the suzuki swifts most rental places in aus have come with them, they work kind of like a cruise control in reverse, if you drive normally it will take back the throttle to keep you under a limit you set like a cruise control, but if you put your foot down it will over-ride and let you overtake etc, for manuals this is much nicer as it means you don't have to change things when you change gears.My own experience if your doing short hop driving is automatics are fine, but the exact model of the car can make them feel disconnected, my 2004 corolla behaves close enough to the shift points I would expect of a manual that I generally end up looking for a clutch that is not there, but a friends 2005 Honda CRV was like there where foam bricks between me and the pedals, everything felt wrong.Across many rental cars I've used over the years, if its an underpowered car, Manual is best to edge out a decent experience, if it has enough power to get up a hill with only 1 gear down, either is fine.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 03:40:10 pm
content: Snipped good points, then ...Quote from: NANDBlog on May 23, 2019, 01:31:46 pmVery sensible observations.I'll add that public transport allow you to look at interesting things (cf the road), and talk to people. Plus anybody that takes a car into London needs their head examined; their wallet won't need to be examined, because it will be empty.

author: vtwin@cox.net
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 03:42:27 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 23, 2019, 03:40:10 pmHas public transportation improved over the past several years? When my wife commuted from Brighton to London, the train was late/broken more than it was on time/working.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 03:51:31 pm
content: Quote from: vtwin@cox.net on May 23, 2019, 03:42:27 pmThat is very dependent on country, location, time, and date.Trains are not the only form of public transport.Roads get clogged with traffic.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 04:09:20 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 23, 2019, 03:40:10 pmYes, thank you I agree and now will have to firmly convince my wife and the people that I'm going to be on the trip with not to make me their "driver".It was their idea that we should rent a car, when I really don't think it is a good idea. The "manual" vs. "auto" thing sort of came out of that conversation when they told me, "oh by the way can you drive manual because we're reserving one".Nevertheless, it did start me thinking that it would be good to learn... NOT because I want to use it for this upcoming trip. But perhaps in the future, once I already have experience in my home territory where I am familiar with the roads and have plenty of time to practice and build up the muscle memory.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 04:11:25 pm
content: The first question should have been: where are you going?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 05:08:13 pm
content: Quote from: edy on May 23, 2019, 04:09:20 pm"Because I want to" is the best possible justification, and that's a sane way of doing itEnjoy both your trip and the lessons

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 06:11:35 pm
content: Quote from: vtwin@cox.net on May 23, 2019, 03:42:27 pmI can tell you with 1000% certainty that you don't want to commute into London by car. There is a reason why people put up with the trials and tribulations of trains and public transport in London, and that is because being in a car is indescribably worse.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 06:12:15 pm
content: Quote from: edy on May 23, 2019, 04:09:20 pmSounds wise. It will also give you a chance to form your own opinion of the auto/manual debate. As you have proved in this thread, strong opinions abound. The existence of both in the market proves that neither side owns the truth.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 07:56:11 pm
content: Quote from: vtwin@cox.net on May 23, 2019, 03:42:27 pmTrains into London are terrible. Cars into London are worse.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 08:53:21 pm
content: Quote from: technix on May 23, 2019, 06:36:24 amYes, they will skip gears just fine when appropriate. 4 > 8, 8 > 4, whatever is appropriate. Not all of the cheaper transmissions will do it but slowly but surely they all will. As for engine braking you can get them to kick down, or manually select a lower gear. Typically though you don't downshift into first, it's geared so low that by time it's ok it's also probably unnecessary.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 09:38:29 pm
content: Quote from: technix on May 23, 2019, 06:36:24 amYes, my car's automatic transmission has engine-assisted braking. If I start braking it will down-shift so the engine can help slow the car down.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 10:16:57 pm
content: My clutch died in the middle of a thousand mile trip, right in Bumblefuck, Nowhere.I drove 3 hours with no clutch and made it home, even stopping for gas. I'm sure people won't believe that. My brother initially laughed at the notion.It took a heck of a lot of foresight to pull this off. Red lights and what not. Avoid at all cost running out of space while going uphill, at all.On perfectly level ground, I found out on my particular car I could get it very slowly rolling by pushing the stick against first gear while idling. Once it got up to a few mph, it would pop in, and I was off to the races by matching revs when shifting up/down. So getting gas was a matter of locating a gas station that had space for takeoff.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 10:22:12 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 23, 2019, 10:16:57 pmI was working on an Audi once and having just finished work on it I took it for a test drive. Just as I was looping back towards the shop the clutch pedal hit the floor. Had to make the entire drive, including lights and traffic, like that. I got back and told the writer, "I told you he needed a clutch." It was a long drive too because it was a ton of cooling system work.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 10:40:27 pm
content: ^Yep. Exciting, isn't it?Lucky me, I didn't have any major city traffic to deal with. I had a lot of rolling stops, and I probably annoyed some people while crawling towards red lights. But I could slow down to a couple mph without killing the engine. My main worry was getting pulled over for driving funny and being told nice try, but now I have to get a tow. That or running into a road rager.Biggest probem... red lights uphill. Had a couple of close calls.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 10:54:42 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 23, 2019, 10:16:57 pmI guess there are two ways for a clutch to die: one is that it wears out and slips like crazy, the other is when the cable snaps and you can't disengage it.There is the possibility to change gears without using the clutch pedal. It is a useful skill to learn.(Although your gearbox won't thank you while you are practicing.)

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 11:27:16 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 23, 2019, 10:16:57 pmBetter? on most cars if you start the car on 1st gear already engaged. Bit more strain to starter but no wear to gearbox synchronizers.Every car I have had has been able to pull its weight with starter.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 11:43:17 pm
content: Quote from: edy on May 22, 2019, 05:24:23 pmI'd say that try to train with at least two different manual cars before leaping to Europe and manual rentals."feel" can be quite different between brands and models, some manuals are lot easier to drive and if you have ever driven only one model of manual car it might surprise you.(Especially if you switch from typical large US car with large engine to some European econobox with 1.1l engine)Learning to drive manual is not rocket science but it can take couple of tries to master and its not something that you want to train on morning traffic jam out of Heathrow.I have been driving all of my life only manuals and on a first trip in US with automatic transmission I managed to make couple of pretty good accidental brakings.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 12:09:18 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 23, 2019, 10:16:57 pmYou could have used the starter to start the car while the clutch is stuck like this guy shows:

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 12:52:47 am
content: Most cars will start and drive just fine in 2nd or 3rd gear if the clutch release (or shifter) mechanism fails. I was on a business trip and talked my wife through how to limp her car home in 3rd gear rather than have it towed. My high school Rabbit shifter linkage broke and I was able to put the car into 3rd gear at the transmission and drive it reasonably normally back across town to home while I waited for the replacement part.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 02:16:24 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on May 23, 2019, 03:58:01 amThe Prius does not have a CVT. It is effectively engine-electric like a diesel locomotive with an alternator and traction motor and the addition of a mechanical transmission. There is no mechanical CVT involved.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_DriveQuote from: maginnovision on May 22, 2019, 10:41:46 pmStarting in second gear is a feature for driving on slick roads.Quote from: tggzzz on May 23, 2019, 07:44:38 amWith a relatively new car, you don't have to worry about breaking something and they won't know you burned up a bunch of the clutch until much later.

author: knotlogic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 02:51:36 am
content: Quote from: edy on May 22, 2019, 05:24:23 pmIt's been a long while since I kept tabs on what's what in cars, but you've got your manual and automatic which used to cover most cases. Then there's CVT - continuously variable transmission which was rather unpopular. Think it didn't run as well as automatics? Those three are mechanically different. There are also fancy systems that are essentially manual gearboxes, but with an automatic actuator. Supposedly the efficiency of a manual, but the ease of an auto, and shift faster than the average driver can change gears in a manual. They go by different names depending on manufacturer: SMG, DSG and Tiptronic or Steptronic?Personally I can't stand automatics, and prefer manual. The one automatic I have exeprience with takes forever to figure out that it should upshift/downshift, and seems hugely inefficient, resulting in massive lag in throttle response. It's not a new car, so I suppose thing have gotten better, and at the end of the day, the manual/automatic decision is going to be a very personal thing. I'm still good driving a manual though, I suppose it's like riding a bike.One thing. I've always driven in a right-hand drive car, so I change gears with my left hand. I figure if I ever have to drive in a left-hand drive car I would go with the automatic because I do not think I would be comfortable steering with my left and shifting with my right, at least for a start. If you'e coming from the US and driving on the continent, I doubt that's an issue for you.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 05:47:17 am
content: Quote from: edy on May 22, 2019, 05:24:23 pmJust to have it said and I guess the rental will tell it anyway, but nowadays you need safety vests and put them on should you need to leave the car at the side of the road.QuoteWell... the valves are controlled electronically, but there are only few rev and temp sensors in there, most information comes from CAN. The oil pressure for controls might be buffered. They disengage once the car stopped after some time, but reengage automatically if the brake pedal is disengaged, they allow for Auto-Engine-Stop (which can be disengaged with a switch in european cars).QuoteThe paddle shifters i know just work electronically as input, newer models allow overriding the actual gear in whatever forward driving mode it is in, older ones required to be in manual mode, but reject shifting if it would over-rev or stall the engine (unless you´re in a fifteen year old Volvo, i heard).MTA - manual transmission automated is practically an automatic clutch application with wear compensation and automated gear shifting. Shifts faster than you could manual and is overall nice to drive, it does not have the softer gear change of a torque converter though.Not to be mixed with DSG - Direkt-schalt-getriebe or double clutch transmission (also automated). They always have the next gear engaged on a second clutch, which allows for a somewhat constant pull during a faster gear change.Whatever the car does, the hydraulic brake system always has a lot more power (like 4000hp) and the engine has no choice other to bog down. Still don´t know what the big deal about the Toyota accelerator scandal was, some of this was about floor mats blocking the accelerator pedal, then i heard something like the brake system prioritized the torque request of the engine over the brake pedal and took brake pressure out because accelerator and brake were applied at the same time. That would have been a big nono.Other than that: in general you must push the brake pedal a bit more convincingly whatever the engine does or sounds like or even if it jumps a bit - this goes for manual and automatic. The brakes are perfectly capable of doing a full stop from maximum velocity to zero without going defect.The rotors or pads wear down excessively or warp when being overused on long downward slopes (use engine braking as much as possible then) or are being shock cooled by puddle water, or stopping at the traffic light hot, having the brake pad touching and cooling down one area of the rotor only - use the parking brake instead (the rear rotors take less of the load, therefore heat, should there be no separate parking brake) or and engage "P" or a gear and stop the engine.QuoteI drive left hand steering, right hand steering, manual and automatic transmissions on a regular basis, but accidentially trying to clutch the brake pedal of an automatic transmission happens from time to time - when trying to go from first to second gear. I actually would second doing longer trips by train - if you go on a city tour the public transport in larger cities is quite OK.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 07:46:54 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 24, 2019, 02:16:24 amI see the ambiguity, but I wasn't thinking of that as beingthereason for taking out all the insurance.If you are learning to use a manual gearboxplushaving to contend with the points nandblog enumerated, you are more likely to have an "incident".

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 08:02:43 am
content: Quote from: knotlogic on May 24, 2019, 02:51:36 amTiptronic is an automatic transmission (using a torque convertor to couple the flywheel to the transmission) that's manually-controllable, not a double-clutch manual transmission that's automatically-controllable (like DSG, PDK, etc).

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 08:41:33 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 24, 2019, 02:16:24 amWow I did not know that. This is a good video to understand the Toyota eCVT systemhttps://youtu.be/ZmHpSyTsfm0Hey David did you go to Millikan High?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 09:53:34 am
content: In Poland the choice is simple: it's illegal to drive a manual if you haven't passed your exam on a manual.I'm not entirely sure how it applies to foreign licenses, particularly from the EU, but that's something you should consider and research in whatever country you plan to travel to.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 11:00:29 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 24, 2019, 02:16:24 amA lot of the documentation for Toyota's hybrid system refers to the electric power transfer arrangement as a CVT or eCVT. They like to keep changing terminology, like the latest material calling the system a self-charging hybrid.

author: maxxy707
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 02:18:48 pm
content: Quote from: knotlogic on May 24, 2019, 02:51:36 amAh, that ___-hand drive car issue. It's been a problem for me two years ago, when I had to visit France for half a year.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 04:09:26 pm
content: Quote from: knotlogic on May 24, 2019, 02:51:36 amThat is surprisingly easy to get used to. The other way around wasn't troublesome for me (while driving in Jakarta).

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 07:45:59 pm
content: QuoteIn general, the smaller the engine, the easier it is to shift. The lighter the reciprocating mass and torque of the engine, the more easily it changes to match the drive train in case of minor difference. I barely touched the clutch when driving a small car. I often didn't use the clutch at all to upshift on a motorcycle. With a torquey, heavy engine it might be near impossible to shift gears with no clutch without accidentally damaging something. I gather this is the reason sokoloff had his wife put the car in 2nd or 3rd, to avoid any shifting?A euro econobox would be ideal first car for learning stick. The main way a noob would burn out a clutch is by inadvertently "riding it." This just means they leave the clutch partially depressed too much, usually while starting from a stop on a steep incline. Once the car starts to move you should be able to lift off the clutch, even uphill, at only some few mph. You want to fully engage sooner rather than later. This, btw, is probably the most difficult thing to do. On a steep incline at a red light with a car behind you, you might have to use the brake and accelerator at the same time, controlling both pedals with your right foot. This is probably a huge reason for automatics. Not everyone is cut out for this. If you fail, your car goes the wrong direction. You should probably give this some thought and try to get some practice before you start driving around in hilly urban areas.QuoteYou know, this never crossed my mind. I think the first time I realized the clutch was dead, I was already sitting in neutral and the engines was still running. And I just did what was natural. It probably took more than 10 seconds for the car to get rolling and up to the couple mph where 1st gear engaged.I bet the starter can get the car going on a decent incline. I suppose you just have to physically get out and rock the car a bit forward or back until the gears/dogs line up and you can get the thing into first, to begin with?This would have been nice to know at the time.QuoteSome are twidgier than others, but once you drive one, you know how it goes forever. My first experience was with a mini bike when I was maybe 10-14. Never owned one, just got an opportunity to ride one for a couple weeks. 10-20 years later, still good. Bought standard cars and motorcycles with no worries and no problems.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 08:01:02 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 24, 2019, 07:45:59 pm[99.9+% of] Street cars havesynchronizersthat are beveled, so it's extremely rare that you can't shift them into a gear with a stopped engine. (It's possible, but fairly rare.) With [stronger, but typically race-only] dogs, it's common that a gear cannot be selected with the engine stopped without rocking the car a bit. There are some older transmissions that are not synchronizer equipped for first-gear, but most modern cars are synchronizer-equipped on all gears, with the gears themselves constantly meshed and the synchronizers controlling whether the gear is "engaged" or not.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 08:49:54 pm
content: Quote from: windsmurf on May 24, 2019, 08:41:33 amNope.Quote from: coppice on May 24, 2019, 11:00:29 amIt is a continuously variable transmission in the same sense that a switching power supply, variable transformer, or motor-generator is a continuously variable transmission which changes the ratio between voltage and current or torque and distance continuously. It is not a continuously variable transmission as commonly understood to be a mechanical continuously variable transmission so does not suffer from those mechanical limitations.What Toyota did, at least as I understand it, was take a engine-electric transmission system like would be found in a US diesel train locomotive (diesel-electric) and couple a mechanical transmission between the generator and motor using a pair of differentials. So the mechanical transmission selects the major gear ratio and the motor-generator continuously varies this ratio between gears using a switching converter (or by adjusting the field voltages?). The advantage of this system is that the motor-generator only has to handle a fraction of the power instead of all of it with the rest going through the mechanical transmission. I assume Toyota found this configuration to have a better power to weight and size ratio or better economics than a straight series hybrid engine-electric transmission.In a diesel-electric transmission, the transmission ratio is controlled by the field voltages which is more amendable to high power operation when weight and size limits are relaxed as is the case with a train engine where weight is an advantage for traction anyway.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 09:04:00 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 24, 2019, 07:45:59 pmSmall engines often have pretty weak idle and low-end torque so you need to be either extra carefull with the clutch and/or fiddle with gas pedal simultaneously when taking off.(altough many modern small engines ECU handle the idle regulation very well and you don't need to worry much about stalling the engine. Ford for example uses sort of pre-emptive idle rpm increase based on clutch pedal position)Motorcycle gearbox is a lot different beast compared to normal one in manual cars. (sequential, close ratio gears, non-synchronized "dog box")

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 09:14:51 pm
content: Distinction between manual and automatic also gets more blurred with the modern "assist" systems like the idle increase based on clutch pedal position, ECU rev matching during gear changes and delay valves on clutch release.BWM has been using controlled delay valve for years and it feels like new Ford Focus also has one. 1.1 liter "ecoboost" engine is super easy to drive in the new focus.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 09:20:19 pm
content: A few years ago the clutch cable snapped in my mom's car, I drove it home several miles from where it broke without using the clutch at all. To start from a stop I had to shut off the engine, put it in 1st and then start it up and it took care to match the revs to get it into gear but it was possible to do. Probably not very good for the gearbox either but it was easier than calling for a tow.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 09:38:34 pm
content: QuoteFiddling with the gas pedal while taking off is the usual way to drive any car. Yeah, you can start a car with just idle on level ground*, but it might take longer than you want. And if you're on an incline, you might need to use some gas and slightly higher than normal idle in revs, even if you have a hemi V-8 that you normally drive like a granny.Heavier and torquier engines are more difficult because of engine inertia and torque. When unstoppable force meets immoveable object and they aren't perfectly synced, bad stuff happens. You have to be smoother on the clutch and/or better matched on the revs or things flex that aren't supposed to flex. And you get the herky jerky and things start to bend and chip and break.*This is probably the first thing you should try if new to a stick. Car in first, and just let the clutch up until you feel it do something. Then from this knee, just slowly lift the clutch until it's fully lifted and the car is going 3-4 mph. But you will have to learn to use more of the middle ground to get the car going faster and/or started uphill. Adding gas while the clutch is not fully lifted. This puts more wear on the clutch, but unless you are doing it wrong, it is normal and necessary wear. Basically, you might say the goal is to learn to lift off the clutch as early (but smoothly) as possible without bogging down or stalling the engine.Another noob mistake I have seen on an upslope is revving the engine up like 4k+ before the clutch even hits the knee. Find the knee and start engaging, first, before you start adding gas. And the engine should never have to rev that high until after the clutch is fully lifted (and I'm talking San Francisco inclines). It can be a little more confusing when uphill where you have to be on the brakes. If in doubt of where the clutch starts to engage just keep slowly raising the clutch until you can hear/feel the engine bog down. At this point, hold the clutch where it is and give a little gasjust enough to return the engine to a healthy high idle.You do not need to rev the engine high. Then start rolling off the brake. If the car rolls backwards, no biggie. When first learning, I suggest you immediately hit the brake and stomp the clutch down and completely start over (for the sake of your clutch). Lift the clutch a little higher this time, and give it correspondingly more gas to keep the engine at the same healthy high idle before lifting off the brakes. This is better than burning out the clutch. IOW, if in doubt, I would err towards stalling the motor. You should never have the engine revving much more than a high idle while the car is stationary, unless you want to peel out. And in this case, you would want to "dump" the clutch pretty fast to avoid burning it out.To be clear, on an upslope you CAN keep the car stationary with just the clutch and the gas pedal, indefinitely. So you can hit this mix before you even let off the brake. Furthermore, you can achieve this with different ratios of gas/revs and clutch. Higher revs and lower engagement, or lower revs and higher engagement. You want to use lower revs and higher engagement. The amount of revs vs the speed is the ultimate feedback. If the car is revving high but not moving, you're burning the clutch.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 09:48:24 pm
content: I have done similar things when cars failed. I have driven without a clutch and driven without a gear shift and driven without a gas pedal and driven without a generator. Not all at once, though.I recall when I bought a VW transporteer/van and saw that the spring on the clutch actuator was hanging free. I paid a mechanic to put it where it belonged and when he was done he said that now the clutch cable will break. I asked why and he said well it now has stresses it didn't have before. And he was right! Sure enough, 12 years later the clutch cable broke.

author: raptor1956
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 09:55:25 pm
content: Of the conventional vehicles if you drive in traffic often then an automatic makes more sense than a manual or DCT. If you seldom drive in stop-and-go traffic then a manual or DCT is a better option. However, when you expand beyond these conventional vehicles to electrics and hybrids the equation changes. If you drive in traffic a lot a pure electric is your best choice but a hybrid is not far behind particularly if you also travel to places with few if any chargers -- like, say, the desert southwest in the USA or the outback in Australia.One thing I suspect will appear before long is a second generation hybrid that does away with the conventional mechanical drive-train completely with the engine driving only an alternator. Such a vehicle would have a larger battery pack than current hybrids but smaller than current all-electric vehicles. While I love the idea of the Tesla for urban/suburban commuting they are not practical for me as I put a goodly number of miles on dirt roads in southern Utah where there are few gas stations and no charging stations, so for me a second generation hybrid would make more sense.Imagine a second generation hybrid SUV with good off-road suspension and geometry and an electric motor at each wheel for TRUE 4WD -- modern 4WD vehicles with limited slip diffs are in truth closer to 3WD in tractive effort.Brian

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 11:05:53 pm
content: Quote from: raptor1956 on May 24, 2019, 09:55:25 pmBMW already has that with the i3, but with limited market success because the price was too high. The EV1 also had a hybrid version that would do 80 MPG, it could have dominated the hybrid vehicle market if GM let it.

author: raptor1956
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 11:29:58 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on May 24, 2019, 11:05:53 pmYeah, the auto industry is going to milk first gen hybrids as long as they can before we see the big push for second generation and 80mpg is about what I'd estimate a second gen hybrid is able to do with upside beyond that. At present the first gen hybrids are essentially regular cars that have a battery pack and electric motor with control electronics slapped on top of it -- a second gen hybrid is a new car altogether so the engineering costs are higher upfront and until volume develops the unit price will be higher also. I think it may take a different segment of the auto industry to make it take off. The two segment that make most sense are semi trucks and RV's.The RV approach is appealing to me given the already high price of high end RV's can go beyond $1M USD so the differential cost would be relatively small for them. It would also be appealing in the RV market as a 200KWHr battery pack would permit about a week of dry camping (no electrical hookup) without ever needing to fire up a generator. Add some solar to it and there would be no need for firing up a generator no matter how long you were camped. Of course, water and sewage would be the limiting factor which would probably limit to a week or two anyway. But, by rolling the tech out in this market and semi trucks, you can begin to build volume then the cost goes down and you're off to the races.Brian

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 11:37:01 pm
content: Quote from: mzzj on May 24, 2019, 09:14:51 pmIt has been nebulous for a long time. How would the 50 year oldVolkswagen Automatic Stickshiftbe classified?My experience was that it was a terrible idea but I have to admit it worked albeit unreliably.Quote from: raptor1956 on May 24, 2019, 11:29:58 pmI suspect one of the factors delaying an all electric transmission is simply the economy of scale in production which currently makes mechanical designs more cost effective.However there are disadvantages to an all electric transmission; among other things, the power per weight and size is lower. This does not matter for train engines and ships but it does for automobiles. For this reason, I suspect all battery EVs to be more popular except where extended range is an absolute requirement.

author: SkyMaster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 11:42:27 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 23, 2019, 02:04:08 amThere is no reason to wear or damage a clutch while learning.I taught to drive manual to a few girl friends, and I always taught to engage first gear without giving any gas. Only once the clutch pedal is fully released that is possible to press on the gas pedal.Getting moving on an incline come after, and then the technique is to be quick; not to let the clutch slips.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 11:43:58 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 24, 2019, 11:37:01 pmAgree that it's hard to put a bright line on things. For my money, if it has a torque convertor, it's an automatic at its core.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 11:53:44 pm
content: That is a lovely ZF commercial. It doesn't address what I have heard about them, namely the lousy reliability. A local mechanic who speicalizes in BMW said that the ZF automatics keep breaking. Another specialist told me, about my stick shift, that the transmission will outlast the rest of the car.Perhaps things have changed since then but for now I will continue to enjoy my 1994 530i stick. I have so far not needed to do service on the transmission or clutch in nearly 200,000 miles.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 11:55:27 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 24, 2019, 11:37:01 pmA lot of buses use a similar kind of transmission to that.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 11:58:09 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 24, 2019, 11:55:27 pmThey do allow more driver control than an automatic transmission without requiring a manual clutch.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 11:58:36 pm
content: Quote from: SkyMaster on May 24, 2019, 11:42:27 pmI taught several as well. One in particular, I was teaching the hill start technique on a pretty serious incline (a ramp up and over some train tracks) in a notably wealthy suburb of Boston (Wellesley). She had a car close behind her and I explained that I'd manage the hand brake for her. She objected and asked "would you use the hand brake if you were driving?" "Nope." "Well, then I'm not either; teach me the right way..." "OK, you're going to want to give it a little extra gas; put the ball of your foot on the brake and use your pinky toe side to rev the car a little; when the light turns green, bring the clutch up a little bit and when you feel it start to catch, less brake, then more gas, and keep the clutch coming up." "OK, got it."Now, to her credit, shecertainlydid not roll backwards into the car behind her. This was the days before cell phones and video cameras, but in this quiet, sleepy little New England town, I imagine it looked a little something like this:

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 12:15:20 am
content: ^Well, with those directions, that is a reasonable result.Here is how I would break down the algorithm, to quote myself. I think it's that good, but maybe I'm wrong.QuoteIt is instinctive that higher revs = more power. But when it's not matched to the speed (of zero), there is loss of efficiency in the clutch and/or tire traction. What you want is the same low revs despite giving more gas, by virtue of loading the engine with higher engagement. When on that same hill in an automatic car, the engine won't increase very much in rpm when you let go of the brake, and it won't roll back. But it will be burning more gas and O2. The clutch will be slipping, but at high force and low speed, low heat. Increasing RPM before engaging the clutch just burns the clutch (or tires, if you dump it).

author: SkyMaster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 03:30:25 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on May 24, 2019, 11:58:36 pmWhen I was 20 years old, I had a 1979 VW Rabbit, just like in the video, but with an engine and a transmission from a 1984 Rabbit GTI (Rabbit was the North American name for the Golf). The car had an exhaust header and a freeflowing exhaust. My advice was "If in doubt, let go the clutch and jump on the gas; as it is easier to replace tires than to replace a clutch". The front tires would spin just like in the video.And oh, I taught myself to drive manual transmission when I test drove that car before buying it; it was so powerful and fun to drive that I bought it right away.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 07:37:23 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on May 24, 2019, 11:58:36 pmEven better if the car has race-style sinter clutchKinda grabbing especially when cold, on-off action with not much slipping between.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 10:04:31 am
content: .

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 11:21:04 am
content: On the practical side, maybe it makes sense to learn driving with a stick shift in a certain order.Build muscle memory to:- locate the pedals- learn how to stop if things go wrong by pressing clutch and brake pedal- keep a certain RPM reliably with the right foot, either by sound or rev counter- find the slip point of the clutch- find the slip point of the clutch while keeping a certain RPM- find the slip point of the clutch while increasing RPM- coordinate all that with the use of the parking brake or how to switch fast enough from brake to accelerator pedalThe smaller the car, the less complicated it is, because you need less torque to accelerate it forward.However, with more recent cars, there might be functions like hill start assist that automatically hold the brake or parking brake and open them once you let the clutch go, so you only need to concentrate on clutch and gas.While driving, some cars might disengage the cruise control when changing gears, some hold it for while after pressing the clutch (without revving up).

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 02:07:10 pm
content: There will always be some learning when entering a new vehicle. Just hope that the first dozen or so starts from wherever you pick up the vehicle are fairly benign.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 03:36:57 pm
content: Quote from: edy on May 22, 2019, 05:24:23 pmOthers have mentioned that a trip abroad may not be the best opportunity to gather experience with stick-shift driving -- the different road signs and environment will keep you busy already. Depending on where in Southern Europe you drive, you may also encounter hilly terrain, which adds a few challenges. (Starting a car on an upward slope tends to scare most driving students at first...)Beyond that, if I may ask: How old are you? When did you last learn a new skill which requires coordination of multiple extremities? (A complex video game maybe, playing a musical instrument, or juggling?) And did you find it easy to get adjusted to these new motion patterns? That may give you an idea whether adjusting to manual gear shifting and the clutch pedal will come easy.

author: bw2341
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 08:17:05 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 24, 2019, 08:49:54 pmCompared to gasoline car transmissions, the mechanical part of the Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive is incredibly simple and elegant. Of course, the total hybrid system is very complicated. The YouTube video linked by windsmurf covers the mechanical parts pretty well.The only transmission element is a single planetary gear set. In brief, a planetary gear set has a sun gear, a planetary carrier, and a ring gear. In a regular automatic transmission, a brake band can stop one of the three elements, which changes the gear ratio of the other two. But what if you can control all three elements independently?The HSD has a smaller electric motor-generator (MG1) which drives the sun gear. The gas engine drives the planetary carrier. The larger electric motor-generator (MG2) is directly coupled to the drive shaft. MG2 and the drive shaft connect to the ring gear.Changing the speed and direction of MG1, will change the gear ratio between the gas engine and drive shaft. Since the gas engine, MG1 and MG2 are all computer controlled, you can achieve a wide variety of operating modes. The modes can get complicated as MG1 and MG2 can independently switch between motor and generator operation at any time. Mechanical power can flow in any direction between the three shafts. At the same time, electrical power can flow in any direction between the two MGs and the battery.The HSD is mechanically simpler than typical car transmissions. There is only a single set of permanently engaged gears. There are no linkages and clutches of a manual. There are no brake bands and actuators of an automatic. There are no electomechanical actuators of a DCT. There are no heavily clamped friction surfaces of a CVT.Even the reverse gear is missing as MG1 can directly drive the car in reverse. The only traditional element is a parking pawl.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 10:47:26 pm
content: Quote from: SkyMaster on May 25, 2019, 03:30:25 amI received similar advice about engine braking using a manual transmission and letting the clutch slip too much. "Brake pads are much less expensive to replace than clutches. Slip the clutch less."Quote from: SparkyFX on May 25, 2019, 11:21:04 amThis can have unfortunate results if you operate an automatic transmission after becoming very used to a manual transmission. You can end up pushing on the clutch (edge of the brake pedal) as you stop, noticing that you are stopping faster so much not have disengaged the clutch so you push harder on the clutch (edge of the brake pedal), and repeating with the result of pushing the clutch (edge of the brake pedal) to the floor locking the brakes and surprising those around you.Quote from: bw2341 on May 25, 2019, 08:17:05 pmSo I got the essence right. I had forgotten that the motor/generators were tied to the planetary gears directly but that makes sense as a mechanical simplification.It is a clever system and optimization to be sure. I am just dubious of anything which when automated becomes an additional point of failure and doubly so with anything from a car company.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 11:03:04 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 25, 2019, 10:47:26 pmI share your general philosophy, but HSD has been out for quite some time and by all accounts has phenomenally long and trouble-free service history. Several Prii have exceeded 500K miles, some in taxi service, so at this point I’d feel totally fine about buying or driving a high-mile Prius.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 03:55:01 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 25, 2019, 10:47:26 pmI wonder how difficult it would be to put in a "clutch emulation pedal" that basically just tells the drivetrain to "not apply any torque to the wheels", including minimizing mechanical resistance unless the brake pedal is being pressed.Quote from: bw2341 on May 25, 2019, 08:17:05 pmQuoteThe majority of the complexity is indeed in the (very reliable) electronics. Some DIY EV hackers have tried to reverse engineer the inverter module but were not able to figure out the custom ASICs that were used. Some very early 1st gen inverters (Japanese market and rare) used FPGAs and I remember reading about the 4th gen going back to FPGAs because they got cheap enough that the savings from making a new custom ASIC was no longer worth the risk. The IP protection would likely prevent any real reverse engineering, but I suppose that does open up the possibility (albeit low due to the complexity) for the DIY EV hackers to create an open source firmware to reuse the inverters in DIY EVs.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 06:00:10 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 25, 2019, 10:47:26 pmSince I always drive stick-shift cars at home, and automatics when renting a car in the US, I can confirm that an attempt to hit the non-existent clutch is a likely "failure mode".It does not even take a conscious (or subconscious) cycle of "hey, this thing is slowing down too fast, I must step on the clutch harder". If you want to brake and stop from a slowish speed in a stick-shift car, you will "floor" the clutch pedal to release the clutch, while gently dosing the brake. Not good if you floor the brake pedal instead, since there is no clutch...

author: mfro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 06:30:03 am
content: Quote from: edy on May 22, 2019, 05:24:23 pmWhere in Europe? Depending on country and region, things might be different.If you go to some industrial area, you most likely get an auto without asking anyway, because that's what they have. Where I live, for example, most rentals are DCTs nowadays (there are Germans as well that never drove a stick and have a limited license that only allows them to drive auto).Should there be a choice, any reasonably alert agent will give you an auto in his own best interest as soon as he realises you are American (as he doesn't want you to break their car because of lack of experience).Things might be different if you go to more rural areas, however.Frankly, if I were you, this would probably be the least thing I'd worry about. Rather make sure you do not pay a huge uplift if you intend to return your car in a different country than you got it, for example.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 11:19:56 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 26, 2019, 06:00:10 amI ran into that problem many years back, when it was the habit amongst car makers to provide huge brake pedals so people could use "left foot braking".With all the automatic cars I've driven since then, the brake pedal is very little, if at all, larger than those for manual vehicles.Do they still install the huge pedals in the USA?

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 12:43:02 pm
content: In some cars, yes. More than a few times, I've mashed my left foot onto a firm brake pedal when getting ready to start an automatic-equipped rental car.

author: garethw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 01:25:47 pm
content: Manual gearboxes are the default here in the UK. Having said that, automatics are becoming increasingly more popular. I drove a manual for over a decade and used to think that automatics weren't "real driving". That was until I got an automatic! I can now honestly say that I will not go back to a manual. I've had a Honda with a robotised gearbox (a manual box with a robot that controls the clutch and gears) and now drive a VW van with DCT. The Honda gearbox was....lets put it this way, Honda scrapped it after a few years of production.The DCT in the van is great. Yes, it doesn't always pre-select the right gear as it has to predict the next change and unfortunately nothing short of a neural connection to your brain will predict if you suddenly change your mind at roundabout and boot it. My only genuine concerns with the DCT are reliability and repair costs.I always tell people that the future is automatic seeing as though electric cars don't have manual gearboxes.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 01:38:21 pm
content: Quote from: garethw on May 26, 2019, 01:25:47 pmAre there any electrics with gearboxes at all (ones with multiple, selectable gear ratios)? My LEAF doesn't have one and I'm not aware of any others that do.

author: garethw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 01:44:26 pm
content: When I say "Automatic" i mean not manual.Electric cars don't have a gearbox as the motors are directly coupled to the wheels, however as a driver, the controls are similar to a simple automatic i.e. Neutral, forwards or reverse. Also, there are only two pedals for everything except a manual.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 01:55:27 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on May 26, 2019, 01:38:21 pmBMW i8https://gas2.org/2014/11/12/gkns-two-speed-eaxle-boosts-ev-performance/Tesla attempted 2-speed gearbox also with the roadster but they were under-engineered and failure-prone.Real direct driven wheels are rarity in electric cars, difficult to make enough torque in compact size.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 01:56:46 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on May 26, 2019, 01:38:21 pmI understand that the Renault Zoe has two transmission ratios, but I've never noticed the transition between the two. I suspect that it's some form of epicyclic gearing where you can achieve smooth transition by gradually braking one part.I'm not sure where I read it, it may have been in the user manual or online somewhere. The Zoe has a very conventional design with the motor, gearbox and all the power electronics mounted under the bonnet and coupled to a wet cooling system.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 02:00:59 pm
content: While I prefer to drive manual transmission, they are becoming harder to find here in the US.When I traveled to the UK, I rented an automatic because I didn't want to have to deal with shifting with the "wrong" hand. Just driving on the left side of the road was challenging enough in city traffic, and narrow one-way suburban lanes (with cars parked the wrong way half up on the sidewalk) and country roads hoping you don't encounter a wide truck/lorry coming the other way around a blind corner.And I am still baffled at the lack of signage. Maybe you will be lucky enough to see the name of the road on the side of a building, but probably not. And driving through London in heavy traffic rendered the directional instructions completely invisible as they were painted on the pavement where you couldn't see them in bumper-to-bumper traffic. I will never again make the mistake of driving through central London.But my favorite was the painted curb/kerb warning at every corner in London. It said "LOOK RIGHT-->" I asked a nearby policeman ("bobby"?). If people grow up with traffic coming from that direction, why paint such a warning on every corner. He said: "Oh it isn't for locals. It is for you Yanks. You don't know how many of you we lose every year because you look the wrong way."

author: garethw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 02:01:22 pm
content: I was waiting for someone to come back with an exception!The point is this...the driver doesn't have to press a clutch pedal, move a stick, lift the clutch pedal again.Who remembers the Saab with a conventional looking gear stick, but no clutch pedal? I was lucky enough to try one if these. Very strange car to drive.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 02:32:34 pm
content: Quote from: mzzj on May 26, 2019, 01:55:27 pmNeat tech, though the i8 is a gas-electric hybrid, not a pure electric.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 02:55:41 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on May 26, 2019, 02:00:59 pmThe single-track "emergency dive to side of road for safety" is indeed a key failure pointWhile there's no point in driving in central London (good public transport, you can stroll across the interesting part in an afternoon), if you have to then the way to navigate is not by road names/number, but from onevillageto the next. Central London is, after all, a collection of very different villages that have grown together.My favourite safety sign was the only safety sign I saw in Iceland. It was, roughly, "you can stand on the red and brown soil, but if you stand on the yellow or white soil it will give way without warning and you will end up in boiling mud". Recently it appears the buggers have put up safety fencing near one of the waterfalls.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 02:58:26 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on May 26, 2019, 01:38:21 pmThe Golf/Passat GTE is a plug in hybrid and the electric motor is driven through the 6-speed gearbox. The same gearbox is used for the engine. The motor on the GTE is tiny (although rated at 80kW/100hp) - it is bolted onto the side of the gearbox and, as part of the same assembly, also comprises the 3rd clutch to (dis)engage the engine as needed.The BMW i8 is a plug in hybrid and the rear wheels are driven entirely by an e-motor, which goes through a 2-speed gearbox.The original prototype Tesla Roadster used a 2-speed manual - no clutch required as motor can go into zero torque mode while shifting. The gearbox was primarily intended to improve acceleration and efficiency at speed. However the original gearbox by Borg Warner could not withstand the torque of the e-motor and had a tendency to completely shred itself to pieces. The production vehicle did not feature the gearbox.In general an electric car will benefit slightly from a gearbox (few percent better efficiency) however the additional cost is rarely worth it. The GTE will have a gearbox because the engine needs one, so the position of the motor and the subsequent cost and efficiency benefits are worthwhile - may as well use it if it is already there. The i8 will have one because it is a performance car and cost is much less important.In the newer Tesla Model S/X/3 vehicles, on all-wheel-drive variants, the front and rear motors have different gearing ratios, via a simple reduction gearbox, which effectively allows the vehicle to select one of the two drive ratios depending on efficiency or performance requirements. Generally when cruising the AWD cars will use the front motor, but under acceleration transfer torque to the rear. Under full acceleration both will be used, but the majority of the torque request is on the rear.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 03:18:50 pm
content: Relating back to the topic of this thread, I just moments ago reserved a manual-transmission Sixt rental for our trip to Ireland in a few hours. Will not be my first time driving on the left side of the road, nor [by far] my first time driving a manual transmission, but will be my first time doing both at once. Fingers crossed.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 01:02:52 am
content: Practice on some WIDE quiet roads first to get used to gear changes, stalls and uphill starts,before entering the rat race

author: vtwin@cox.net
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 12:54:50 pm
content: I've always wondered why, on right-side driver vehicles1. The shifter isn't "backwards", e.g. rather than1 3 52 4 6it would be5 3 16 4 2since upper-right would be akin to upper-left here in the states2. why the foot pedals aren't backwards as well, e.g.gas break clutchrather thanclutch brake gashere in the colonies....

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 02:47:01 pm
content: Having just done my first right-hand-drive manual transmission driving, I agree that the gearshift not having 1st closest to me did feel weird. Interestingly, shifting with the "wrong" hand didn't feel especially weird, but putting 1st gear away from my did.The pedals being the same arrangement was very helpful in transferring skills across.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 03:08:32 pm
content: Quote from: vtwin@cox.net on May 27, 2019, 12:54:50 pmI think it is safe to assume that they use the same gearbox in left-handed and right-handed versions of the car.For the wiper and turn signal levers next to the steering wheel, it seems that the situation is even more confusing: Some manufacturers use a mirrored configuration on left vs. right-hand steering wheels, some use the same. (Again, to use the same module in both car configurations for cost reasons.)

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 03:33:17 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on May 26, 2019, 02:00:59 pmThat reminds me of a visit by our Korean company president to our UK office years ago. Such event's were usually somewhat fraught, but over the weekend he looked the wrong way and ended up in A&E. He sat through the remainder of the reviews with his wrist bandaged and a 'distant' expression in his eyes. He was meek as a mouse for the rest of the visit, bliss!

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 05:51:28 pm
content: Quote from: vtwin@cox.net on May 27, 2019, 12:54:50 pmMore than enough is they have swapped wipers and turn signalsIt is fun when you have two cars and one is right and other left hand driveHaving backwards pedals will be deadlybtw I never get why Europeans love their stick shifts. Or is it just none of Europe manufacturer developed reasonable automatic for small car ?

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 06:26:59 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on May 27, 2019, 05:51:28 pmTraditionally automatic cars are more thirsty and gas is lot more expensive in most of the Europe vs US.Small low power engines maybe another (historic) reason. "traditional" automatic transmission can make the underpowered car feel even more sluggish.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 07:16:29 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on May 26, 2019, 02:58:26 pmThat makes sense because weight transfer to the back during acceleration allows more power to be applied to the rear tires without slipping. The reverse is true of braking which is why drum brakes are adequate for rear wheels.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 08:36:21 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 25, 2019, 03:36:57 pmIn answer to your questions, I have been driving 25+ years, in my mid-40's, good driver... Thankfully never got into an accident. I've had maybe 1 or 2 tickets in all that time, failure to stop for 3 seconds at stop sign, maybe one speeding slightly. Other that I have an excellent clean record.With respect to skills, yes I do play video games requiring complicated combination moves, I play piano, guitar, I can handle a few tasks simultaneously. I do downhill skiing, ride a mountain bike with multiple gears. I believe I have fairly good hand-eye coordination and can pick up new skills. I'm no spring chicken but I'm not a klutz. I understand the mechanics of a manual transmission and what the clutch and shifter do, etc... so I think I should be able to get my muscle memory to the point where it flows easily.The question as to whether I will try practicing in Europe on a few or no practice runs at home... I mentioned earlier in the thread that I will probably avoid trying to drive on my trip. However, I am still interested in learning just for the sake of doing it. I may wish to buy/lease a car with manual in the future, or pick up a more "sporty" car, or a small car, or a collector classic car.... all of which could give me more options if I wasn't restricted to only automatic. I enjoy driving and so I would like to explore things and increase my experience in areas that I haven't yet had the chance to do.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 08:53:27 pm
content: QuoteYeah, this is very apparent on a motorcycle, due to short wheelbase and top heaviness. If you come to a stop on a steep decline and you let go of the bars (and front brake), the bike (esp a front biased race bike) can actually slide down the street, dragging the locked rear tire like it is nothing. And vice versa, on a steep upslope, you do cannot hold the bike still with just the front brake. Practically the only time you ever need to use rear brake on a sport bike beyond stopping on a steep incline is on wet pavement or off road. It will still be practically useless, but sliding the rear tire while very gradually slowing/stopping is preferable to dumping the bike and sliding to a stop on your ass, which is what happens if you lock the front wheel on slippery terrain.This is one of those things where on a steep decline, people like to say "engine braking." Engine braking is completely useless on a really steep decline, especially on a motorcycle. It's mostly useful on gentle declines and moreso for trucks than small cars/motorcycles. With a small engine, engine braking only temporarily slows the vehicle until the engine spins up, and then it provides hardly any drag. And even if it could, it would only do that to the rear tire, on a motorcycle. If this is a part of your daily commute, the answer is sintered brake pads.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 09:10:55 pm
content: The point of engine braking is that it is doing aerodynamic work by pulling a vacuum against the closed throttle. The mechanical energy absorbed by the engine is partly lost to the air being pumped and partly to the engine's cooling system which handles it easily. As a result you can engine brake indefinitely without overheating anything so a long downslope that would overheat the brakes can be handled more safely.You get much less engine braking on diesel engines as there isn't the same pumping loss but I don't see why you wouldn't get reasonable engine braking on a motorbike. Yes it will only affect the driven wheel but the idea isn't rapid deceleration, it's to be able to keep a steady speed downhill without riding the brakes.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 09:17:27 pm
content: ^ only works on a very gentle decline. On a steep hill, engine brake is useless. It might save a tiny fraction of heat in the brake, but pretty much insignificant.And if you ever have to emergency stop, quickly, you want to ditch engine brake. While you're mashing on the front and 95% of the weight transfers to the front tire, the back has enough weight just to track in neutral. Any bit of braking will just make the rear slide out of line or even temporarily hop around. Some race bikes have a slip clutch to do this automatically. But normally, you have to pull the clutch in to prevent the rear from doing this. It is scary when this happens while shedding speed into a turn. Even here, the only reason engine braking is strong enough to make the tire hop is because you just downshifted 2 or 3 gears in order to exit hard at perhaps 10K+ rpm, even. Once the engine has spun up, it hardly does any braking.When I drove a car with a hand brake, I got pretty adept at sliding out the rear to get into parking spots without pulling the "austin powers" forward/reverse a dozen times. But I also learned if people are close by, they get super angry at this, thinking you're doing something insanely dangerous for no reason. I could slide the rear a good bit with fair control with a hard application of the hand brake at as little as 4-5 mph, maybe. Nothing crazy dangerous, but the sound of screeching tires is apparently very upsetting and associated with high speed.QuoteForget heat. The motorcycle engine won't develop significant braking until it reaches a relatively high rpm. That's a lot of friction/wear on the engine. Brake pads are cheap.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 09:29:51 pm
content: Certainly on cars the engine braking effect is quite strong, interesting that it is not so on motorbikes.I suspect that riding the brakes down a long hill on a bike works because the discs are much more in the airstream than a car, and the weight of bike and rider is a lot lower for a brake that's not all that different in size. Do that same thing in a car with no engine braking and you'll start to loose braking within half a mile or so of steep downslope. A car descending say 500 feet per minute needs to dissipate 40 kW somewhere to not accelerate. You just can't do that for minutes at a time with the brakes.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 09:30:00 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on May 27, 2019, 05:51:28 pmPartly cost. Automatic is generally an extra cost option on smaller cars. Secondly less of a need.In the USA every intersection is plagued with stop signs and traffic lights, which makes driving a manual a bit tiring on the clutch foot. In the UK, outside of cities, you can drive for miles and miles without ever needing to stop. Intersections have roundabouts and give way (yield) signs, which means mostly you can time your entrance and exit to roll through smoothly without stopping. On such roads it becomes a joy to plan ahead and select the right gear for optimum acceleration at every moment.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 09:44:29 pm
content: QuoteThis is reason for sintered brake pads. They work better when they get hotter. Until you start warping the rotors, you're good. And even if you warp the rotors, you'll still stop. Race cars/bike use full sintered brake pads, and they don't even develop full braking force until you warm them up. There are combo pads that are more moderate.Average passenger vehicle brake pads are optimized for lower temps. They are only supposed to be subject to high force very occasionally. If you drive in hilly area, they may not be sufficient. Under heavy duty cycle, they can glaze over and stop working

author: SkyMaster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 12:33:10 am
content: Quote from: edy on May 27, 2019, 08:36:21 pmYou really want to practice at home.I drove in a few European countries and while I found drivers in these countries to be more courteous than North American drivers, this does not change the fact that the road systems and signs are different from what we have in Canada and if shifting gears is not second nature; this could make your trip less enjoyable.I spent several months in Switzerland, Netherlands and England; I don't know how it is in the other European countries.I do not remember if my rental cars were with manual transmission, I rented several cars during several trips that were lasting four weeks. But I remember that the three cars I rented in England were automatic. I test drove a RHD Series III Land Rover here in Canada, and shifting with the left hand required a conscious effort.

author: mfro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 05:03:10 am
content: Quote from: richard.cs on May 27, 2019, 09:10:55 pmThat's basically because there is no such thing as a closed throttle on a diesel. Diesel engines are not throttled, breathing through a fully open intake at all times. Larger trucks usually do the opposite for engine brakes: they have a (manually activated) exhaust brake that pumps exhaust gas instead.Quote from: richard.cs on May 27, 2019, 09:10:55 pmThe reason here is that - usually designed as sports engines - motorcycle engines have lot more agressive cam timing compared to cars. With valves open most of the time, pump effect is a lot less.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 08:18:35 am
content: Quote from: mfro on May 28, 2019, 05:03:10 amThat makes a lot of sense, thanks.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 08:28:29 am
content: Quote from: mzzj on May 27, 2019, 06:26:59 pmI can agree with gas consumption and its high tax in EuropeBut not with sluggishness. It may feel slow but in reality in city traffic it is super fast.I have one old 80s Opel with 1.6 engine and 3 speed automatic, pre electronic era, pure hydraulic device, I agree it have relative big and strong engine in light car (75Hp / 1000 Kg) and it is lot more gas thirsty than same car with manual shift (about 30% increase)But acceleration from stop is rocket fast compared how people in modern car go, they still looking for their stick Im already far far awayYes it need its 9-10 l/100km of gas in city and in that era was available small diesels with minuscule consumption of 4-5 l just was super slow, modern cars have more similar consumption, modern diesels need like 5-7 l because of bigger cars and emission requirements and gasoline about one liter more. And automatic transmission add no more than another one liter in worst case, sometimes it have even lower than manual. So today it have only reason to buy manual that some manufacturers dont have reliable designs and they want pay extra for it.

author: mfro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 09:10:34 am
content: Quote from: Miyuki on May 28, 2019, 08:28:29 amCorrect.'Traditional' automatic transmissions (not DCTs) use an hydraulic torque converter (usually a device - at least in Europe - called 'Trilok converter') instead of a friction clutch that actually multiplies engine torque at low output speed (usually by a factor of 2-3). Even if it might feel like 'just stirring oil' to a stick driver, most of the cars equipped with such devices can actually accelerate faster from standstill than the same car with a friction clutch.You buy this with a reduced efficiency (~0.9) compared to a friction clutch at higher speeds, thus leading to increased fuel consumption.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 09:16:22 am
content: Quote from: mfro on May 28, 2019, 05:03:10 amIn my experience motorcycles typically have more than enough engine braking, some of them to the point of being dangerous on wet road. AFAIK many mc makers limit the engine braking purposedly to make it easier to drive.(MC's have large engine compared to minimal weight)And many modern diesels also have throttle valve.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 09:21:38 am
content: Quote from: mzzj on May 28, 2019, 09:16:22 amFor what purpose? A lot of the efficiency benefit of a diesel engine over petrol is not having the losses associated with a throttle valve.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 09:28:13 am
content: Quote from: richard.cs on May 28, 2019, 09:21:38 amEngine brakingEmission control is the main reason:https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/technical-stuff/188332-explained-why-diesel-engines-need-throttle-body-throttle-plate.html"controlled" or faster shutdown (dunno if this is any importance for auto makers but there was definite difference when the throttle valve on my VW diesel was non-operational. Edit: the Delphi brochure actually list this as one of the benefits.. )During normal operation the diesel engine still runs with throttle valve mostly or completely open.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 09:32:30 am
content: Quote from: mfro on May 28, 2019, 09:10:34 amThat hasn't been true since the 80's. The lock-up clutch bypasses the torque converter, providing the engine a rigid connection to the drivetrain.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 11:07:34 am
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on May 28, 2019, 09:32:30 amThere's still the substantial mass of the torque converter driving the fluid coupling all of the time.There is a good reason why dual-clutch automatics (and automated manuals) get better fuel economy than traditional automatics.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 11:24:39 am
content: .

author: mfro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 11:42:45 am
content: Quote from: mzzj on May 28, 2019, 09:28:13 amMain reason is EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) - modern Diesel engines aspirate parts of the exhaust gas on partial load to reduce NOx emissions.

author: mfro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 11:46:08 am
content: Quote from: emece67 on May 28, 2019, 11:24:39 amNo. Since Harry Ricardo (latest) every engine designer knows naturally aspirated internal combustion will not work otherwise (that's a little less true for supercharged engines, but that's a rare hen's tooth on motorcycles).

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 11:52:51 am
content: Quote from: mfro on May 28, 2019, 09:10:34 amThis is also why automatics are very common in drag racing, where acceleration matters a lot. There, only 2-3 speeds and a torque converter is enough because the latter gives a much higher effective ratio.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 06:17:09 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on May 28, 2019, 11:07:34 amSure you have to apply energy to get it moving. It is converted angular momentum which doesn't just evaporate. You get it back when you let go of the throttle. And if you add up the weights of the crankshafts, camshafts, pistons, gearing, driveshafts, axles, final drive, wheels, tires etc.. What percentage of the total rotating mass does the torque converter actually represent?Quote from: tom66 on May 28, 2019, 11:07:34 amWatch the video I posted a couple of pages back. BMW switched a whole lineup of vehicles to a TC style AT and got better performance in all categories (including efficiency) than with a DCT.N.A. auto makers are also switching away from DCT.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 09:14:55 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on May 28, 2019, 11:52:51 amThe reason I have been given for using automatic transmissions in drag racing is simply that the design using a planetary gear set is so much stronger. My friend who did this had a "manual" automatic transmission.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2019, 12:34:29 am
content: - REV UP YOUR ENGINES!!!-and cop some manual trans tips from veteran car mechanic and YouTube personality Scotty Kilmeryoutube.com/watch?v=-xXexeLIjOkand the dude from Engineering Explainedyoutube.com/watch?v=_cbZlhduYJYTwo good easy on the brain Youtube videos that cover most stick trans questions and issues

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2019, 01:23:40 am
content: QuoteI overgeneralized. I'm sure some do. Big torquey V-twin cruiser/scooter, or whatnot.An inline 4 that doesn't hit the powerband until 8K, I suppose you'll get some decent engine braking... at like 10-13K rpm. I don't see engine-braking down an incline for 10-20 minutes at 10K+ rpm as a good idea to save brakes. It doesn't feel right. This kind of bike might do 60mph in second gear, if you want to rev it high enough. I would save that for acceleration. And at a 15+ degree decline it won't do you much good, anywyay.QuoteI mentioned slipper clutch on race bikes. I dunno what else they might do for torquier engines. Maybe the valve cam timing thing.QuoteI drove a Civic back in the day. Aside from my first one, all my motorcycles have had as much or more hp than the Civic.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2019, 03:03:25 pm
content: Some engines are specifically designed to increase engine braking on demand:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_release_engine_brake

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2019, 03:39:45 pm
content: Yes, on big semis. Not consumer autos.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2019, 09:45:29 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 29, 2019, 01:23:40 amI have yet not seen inline-4 bike that wouldn't slow down if you go downhill at 100km/h on second gear at something like 8krpm.And 20 minute declines at 15+ degrees are pretty rare.Steepest slopes in US main roads seem to be around 7-8%. Yosemite to Tioga Pass to Mono lake was 9% but 9% slope is only 5 degrees.BTW Tiogga pass is still closed because of snow.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2019, 10:17:38 pm
content: QuoteThis is even more reason that engine braking is useless on STEEP declines.QuoteYou will never want to reach that speed going down a really steep hill. You will have a huge stopping distance and the speed limit will be much lower, anyway.And on that long more gentle gradient:QuoteYeah, but would you, personally, want your engine revving at 8K just to cruise down a long grade? Even on a 600cc, I'm only at and above that for the couple seconds per gear that it takes to warp space time. Cruise highway speeds are usually sub 5k, depending on the gearing. These long, sustained declines are where trailer trucks use engine braking, because these long grades can overwork/heat the brakes. There's no reason to do it if your brakes are overly sufficient with safe margin. (Unless it's a regenerative electric vehicle?)So... engine braking is pretty much useless IMO for many motorcycles and possibly some small engine cars. With a big displacement torquier engine, the peak torque and engine braking can coincide with cruising rpm. With the smaller higher rpm engine, the peak torque and horsepower rpm is a completely different zip code from the cruising rpm. And it only matters if you are actually hauling/towing stuff that necessitates engine braking.QuoteThat's pretty steep, yeah. I learned to ride in an area with >30 DEGREE streets. You say a prayer to Mr. Murphy and the God of Brakes everytime you set down this steep of a street; you can clearly picture an unpleasant death at the bottom. This is how I know, firsthand, you can't keep a sport bike stationary (let alone decelerate in the first place) on a steep enough decline while applying only back brake.