where did all the lower end FPGAs go ?? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 11:47:09 am
content: haven't done a FPGA project for a while, but now i have one to work on.. a small project with a need for a small-ish FPGA in single piece quantities (15kLE-ish, ~60 IOs, no high speed transceivers). wanted to buy some silicon for it, so went to TME... nothing, Farnell nothing... Mouser, Digikey nothing (either obsolete parts in stock or just higher end).i'm familiar with altera, so was looking for MAX10 chips (as they're not obsoleted yet), and there is simply none...on the other hand i see a lot of lattice fpgas in stock, so is it time to switch ?

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 11:53:43 am
content: Search the forum for “chipageddon”

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 12:25:53 pm
content: Yup, FPGAs virtually unobtanium.MAX10 situation is problem for me too.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 01:25:49 pm
content: Intel bought Altera because they're interested in big, fast devices to accelerate their high performance servers. They have no interest in the smaller parts, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if devices like Cyclone (4, 5, 10) FPGAs are never fabricated again.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 02:38:32 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on June 16, 2022, 01:25:49 pmSame with Xilinx bought by AMD.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 03:24:46 pm
content: you can try to use a base board like this onehttps://pt.aliexpress.com/item/1005003810516969.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.242c62a7HfH2DG&algo_pvid=bf8600d6-1ccb-4c8a-b1d2-8d8effe9d1a6&algo_exp_id=bf8600d6-1ccb-4c8a-b1d2-8d8effe9d1a6-9&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000027243899141%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%21%2112.99%21%21%217.83%21%21%40210318cb16553930147897729ee780%2112000027243899141%21seaThat is very easy to buy, and works

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 03:50:40 pm
content: Quote from: ebclr on June 16, 2022, 03:24:46 pmthanks, actaully that's a cute little FPGA, but too smallthe biggest they have has 8K LUT4s , if i'm not mistaken then Altera LE is a LUT4+flip-flop so 15k altera LEs would be an equivalent of 15K LUT4s + 15k flip-flops on the GoWin side. (and they have only 8K + 6K). but definitely looks like a good option for small projects.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 04:10:08 pm
content: actually that GoWin looks even worse than the unobtanium mainstream onesno-one sells the chips (no-one have them listed) , just the development boards.they do have the size i need (Arora GW2AN-18) but it's not sold by any distributor so there is no point considering it.

author: Daixiwen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2022, 07:14:59 am
content: There are some FPGAs from Microchip (ex Microsemi) available on Digikey. A few IGLOO parts (but those over 15kLE and in stock are not cheap) and some Smartfusion parts, with fewer LEs than you may need but with small hardcore CPU (Cortex M-3).But with Microsemi you must check first whether you need a license to use their Libero software. Their licensing requirements are so complicated that they provide a 5-sheet excel file to explain which license you need to work on your part (https://www.microsemi.com/document-portal/doc_download/137168-libero-license-selector-guide)

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2022, 09:57:07 am
content: Quote from: Daixiwen on June 17, 2022, 07:14:59 amaccording to that sheet they have a free license for 1 year only , so no microchip for me(non commercial project)but otherwise the price is ok i would say .. 45euros + VAT for 12K LEs or 74Eur+VAT for 27k LEs is more than acceptable nowadays. i assume the only reason those are still in stock is the giant 484 ball BGA package.

author: mblinov
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2022, 10:59:55 am
content: Admittedly I've only ever used Libero v11.9 (for the legacy ProASIC3 parts), but I have simply renewed the 1 year silver license each year without any problems.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2022, 11:16:50 am
content: Do you know about Anlogic FPGA's?Don't know their availability but the AL3-10 comes in a lqfp-144 package and is similar to a Cyclone IV device. They also have Eagle devices which are a bit more powerful. The software needs a license but seems to be free. Can be downloaded from Sipeed. Could not find the link I used, but look here:https://www.seeedstudio.com/Sipeed-TANG-PriMER-FPGA-Development-Board-p-2881.htmlAliexpress still has dev boards for themhttps://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005001774923333.htmlMore info about it here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/msg3950413/#msg3950413

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2022, 11:59:11 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on June 17, 2022, 11:16:50 amthey don't even have a website in English, it says "the website is upgrading" when selecting English on anlogic.com . so sorry, it's a no , no and no...if i pickle a altera (ok it's intel now) project in a form of archiving the project folder , datasheets, quartus installation file, the OS installation iso and vacuum sealing 1-2 chips. then it's guaranteed i can revive the project in the future if a change or repair needs to be done.if a license for the software is time limited (hello microchip) then it's not guaranteed you'll be able to re-generate the license in the future. if there is no documentation in English (anlogic) then it doesn't make sense even considering it.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2022, 01:30:13 pm
content: You have a valid point there.For me it was because of the fact that the FNIRSI-1013D uses it, that I bought a dev board and played with it. No biggie if I can't any more in a few years, due to the license running out. Might hack the software when that's the case, but that is a different story

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2022, 03:53:26 pm
content: Quote from: mblinov on June 17, 2022, 10:59:55 amSame. And it's the same with the current version of the tools, although the largest PolarFire you can use with the free version is the 100T and ... it just makes maintaining a design difficult because you do have to renew the license every year.I had hoped that the Microchip purchase would fix that problem, but so far, not yet.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2022, 06:20:59 am
content: A few years ago, late 2018 I think I bought 10 spartan 6 XC6SLX9-144 from LCSC at $4.90 unit ten price. LX16's were even slightly cheaper but in BGA and I only want QFP.I figured they have reached their lowest price point and from now on will only increase. That seems to be the way with obsolete fpga's as there still is some long tail demand for those older devices.Then they disappeared - whoosh chipaggedon fairies snatched them all up. Just today I was checking LCSC for other stuff and behold they have some stock (536) for $62 bucks! plus they list a few spartan 7 and Zync for hundreds of dollaroos. I don't know what to make of what is happening, or if spartan 6's will come back down. I wonder if LCSC is just selling some hoarders old stock or if they still are being made and trickling out into the retail stream.

author: mon2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2022, 12:34:37 pm
content: Review the GOWIN and EFINIX devices. Drop the Intel / Altera devices like they have. Intel has been lost with their focus for years.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2022, 02:06:53 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on June 16, 2022, 04:10:08 pmMouser has a good selection of Gowin devices. I like Gowin devices for small FPGA projects.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2022, 02:22:45 pm
content: Quote from: mon2 on June 18, 2022, 12:34:37 pmwho sells GOWIN chips ? i can't find any.Efinix looks good, digikey sells the chip and are in stock... but the software is "buy before try" ? WTF ? also the licensing model is "interresting"Quotei have no problem to buy a dev kit for 150euros to get the license.. (the mentioned $35 one is actually 70$ and out of stock) but i would like to try the software first.

author: woofy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2022, 03:43:29 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on June 18, 2022, 02:22:45 pmExactly!It's a short sighted policy and I really think Efinix have shot themselves in the foot with this.Large companies who will buy these FPGA's by the reel will have no problem with the license, for them its a non-issue.BUT! the policy excludes hobbyists and that is bad. Those hobbyists who play at home with their own money, learn to use them and build things, will go on to get jobs in the electronics industry. Their enthusiasm and the skills they acquire will impress interviewers. They will take those skills to their new employer and unfortunately for Efinix, its won't be their FPGA's that get designed in. Atmel AVR's didn't get so popular because they are great chips - they are only OK chips, but because Arduino made them so cheap and easy to use.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2022, 03:54:50 pm
content: Quote from: woofy on June 18, 2022, 03:43:29 pmIt is also an issue for bigger companies. Software for FPGAs and microcontroller must be free otherwise I won't use it. Free software (without any licensing) is much easier to transfer & keep running so long term support for a product is easier to achieve.

author: mon2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2022, 07:11:40 pm
content: We like both, GOWIN and EFINIX. Each has a design in motion at our company and hopefully to grow with their devices.GOWIN has a free EDU license you can download and test here:https://github.com/magicjellybeanfpga/MiniStarParts are available from Edge Electronics or others worldwide. Hope that the market does not start gouging on the margins but we have had nice dealings with Edge and still recommend them for the best pricing. Certainly check with suppliers on Aliexpress or other distributors listed on their website to compare.Have open dialog with Efinix and they mentioned that their recent production costs have been high so the latest pricing for XYLONI kit has increased. They are working on this to improve the price. My guess is still with the scarce FTDI MPSSE controller device that is onboard.Given the situation, you can perhaps contact them to ask for a test license like others have noted in these forums ?QuoteShe does most of the training videos on their website and is an excellent support contact for us.Efinix has stated that they will consider additional kits to promote their products - so, what would you like to see as features and costs ?If it makes business sense, we can review to spin a design / kit -> then Efinix must approve it and the kit would feature a toolchain license.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2022, 10:58:50 pm
content: Give it 4 more years before everything begins to stabilize.And it wont go all the way back to where we were 3 years ago.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 03:09:17 am
content: Quote from: mon2 on June 18, 2022, 07:11:40 pmI contacted Efinix about their licensing and the fact that the board in question is not even available for purchase. A person called Roger Silloway, USA sales directory, responded after about a week and ignored my question and instead reiterated that the tools were available upon purchase of a kit, "which are on DigiKey." He also asked if this was hobby interest or "volume oriented production design activity."I responded, saying that the boards were not available for purchase, and that indeed it was for production use, and that I wanted to give the tools a spin before deciding whether to even continue to investigate their parts. I honestly don't need a trinket board that'll be tossed in a drawer and never used.After a week, still no response.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 03:14:52 am
content: Ouch.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 03:25:45 am
content: Even Lattice's LFE5U & LFE5UM series have all disappeared. Only around 5 months ago, some of the 12k and 25k gates were available. Even all the most expensive 85k devices are all gone.Only the older 3 series exist:https://www.mouser.com/c/semiconductors/programmable-logic-ics/fpga-field-programmable-gate-array/?m=Lattice&number%20of%20logic%20elements=17000%20LE%7C~33000%20LE%7C~92000%20LE&series=LFE3&instock=y

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 05:55:48 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on June 19, 2022, 03:25:45 amLook at those prices.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 06:40:30 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on June 19, 2022, 05:55:48 pmYes, the 3 series is old and expensive, but there is stock. The new out of stock 5 series is around 20% the price per LE.EG: 37$ for the 17kle in my above attached link.The LFE5U-85, 85kle with 4megabit onboard blockram, is the same price when it was available.EG:https://www.findchips.com/search/LFE5U-85F-6MG285C16$ per piece LFE5U-45 was readily available 2 years ago. (That was a Digikey price...)

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 07:16:27 pm
content: Yes, I actually selected the Lattice ECP5 series both because they met my requirements and because they were still easily available while many others already were not.But the shortage is only getting worse instead of improving as many of us expected.This is a complete disaster. And just the tip of the iceberg. The rampant inflation in many countries in the world is getting pretty bad too.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 09:36:35 pm
content: The funniest thing is that Xilinx (now AMD-Xilinx) are sending people junk emails eager to teach them to use "cost-optimized" FPGAs, while it is not going to be possible to buy any reasonably priced FPGAs in any foreseeable future. They're totally delusional.And not even a hint of apology for the lack of products they promised to keep available for the extended period of time.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 02:09:32 am
content: Edge Electronics has the 4K Gowin part for just $2.62 in the QFP100 package, according to the web page. That's a huge + for me.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 03:47:22 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on June 17, 2022, 03:53:26 pmThe free silver license works with the "Icicle" board which is PolarFire SoC with MPFS250T-FCVG484EES chip.From the "User Guide" (https://www.microsemi.com/document-portal/doc_download/1245042-polarfire-soc-fpga-icicle-kit-user-guide):Quote

author: betocool
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 01:33:35 am
content: Check out QuickLogic FPGA's, they seem to have available chips and dev kits here:https://www.crowdsupply.com/quicklogic/quickfeatherThey have a hard M3 core in them, so they might not be what you're looking for. But pricing and stock seem reasonable. I'm currently working on a De0-nano and an arty-a7, but I was thinking of giving these a try sometime.

author: mon2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 12:30:08 pm
content: To clarify, I have reached out to Efinix and they are willing to generate 90 day license to permit access to their toolchain.In my own correction, the license does NOT expire after the 90 days or 1 year (if purchasing with a kit). Rather, the license is full access to their website and any licensed IP, updates, etc.So do reach out to Efinix as per my last post if there is an interest. I have sent PMs to some of the engineers here but perhaps is filed under the don't care bin.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2022, 01:58:37 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 20, 2022, 02:09:32 amBut zero stock. I also can make a catalog which lists parts I will never get.

author: mon2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2022, 10:29:04 am
content: Is that what Edge or the factory has said? That there is no stock and never will be??Why not ask them for the details?This is sourcing class-101.We ordered a box of tools and devices from Gowin for which Edge had 'zero stock'.Each of the goods were shipped to us from HK to us direct to Canada to avoid the Trump tax, within a few weeks. You know the one where you in the US have to pay tariffs for goods from China but his 'daughter that he would date' was exempt for her company.Same comments apply for Efinix. Both devices are flowing if you make the effort to ask them.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2022, 03:33:35 pm
content: They keep mocking us:"In this webinar, you’ll learn how the Spartan®-7 family delivers processor scalability, any-to-any connectivity, sensor fusion, and custom hardware acceleration—all at a low-cost entry-point."

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2022, 05:39:18 pm
content: That sucks, but what alternative do they have? Or you'd like for them to say "we're sorry guys, nothing to see here, come back later"?Apart maybe from changing activities and sell cloud services instead? That kind of business doesn't seem to be affected by any kind of shortage...

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2022, 05:56:39 pm
content: They continue shipping parts. It's just not many are left over for general distributors, which is why they are pretty much impossible to find in stock anywhere. But if you really need them, contact their sales and place an order. For example, right now they are taking orders for AU10/15P in non-InFO packages, which are now in production, so if you want them - go for it, InFO packages are still in pre-prod and apparently there is a waiting list for these parts.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2022, 07:35:35 pm
content: OK, good to know.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2022, 04:49:04 am
content: Quote from: asmi on June 22, 2022, 05:56:39 pmYou are replying to someone unnamed, about a device I don't recognize "AU10". What are these?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2022, 06:29:48 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 23, 2022, 04:49:04 amAFAIK, those are Artix UltraScale+.https://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon-devices/fpga/artix-ultrascale-plus.html(Not exactly what I would call lower-end FPGAs, but everyone's perspective is different.)

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2022, 07:36:40 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 23, 2022, 06:29:48 pmYep, but that was just an example, as these are the parts I'm personally interested in.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2022, 10:22:49 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 22, 2022, 05:39:18 pmThe truth. What are they doing to solve the problem, when (if ever) they expect "low-cost" FPGAs to be back.Quote from: asmi on June 22, 2022, 05:56:39 pmI'm sure it's not hard to order samples of the parts which are not yet in production. But how about cost-effective Artixes and Spartans. Even if they're still in production, they're all snatched by big companies. Were you able to get any of these?

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2022, 02:44:24 am
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on June 23, 2022, 10:22:49 pmI didn't ask for them because I still have some left - I've bought a bunch just as those whole COVID stuff was getting serious, and so I expected shortages. I did get a few Artixes-100s off Ali just for the heck of it, and they all soldered and worked great (of course I baked them before reflow as who knows how they were stored). Have you tried contacting their sales?BTW, speaking of shortages, I've noticed that Mouser now has max limits set for some parts - like STM32 chips. Digikey does this even more sneaky - it shows only 10 parts in stock, but in reality it's got more. For example, I've bought 10 pcs ofthis parta couple of days ago, but "in stock" number never changed and still shows "10".Also I've finally found a good replacement to TI power parts which I used extensively in the past, but which has become unobtanium for the most part over last couple of years, during which I ran out of most of my stock. Now I use MPS parts and modules, because they sell small batches direct with $5 flat shipping fee and short turnaround time (3-4 days), and keeps seemingly a lot of them in stock by limiting how much parts they sell to a single company, which is why it's perfect for R&D/small batches like I do. For large production batches you have to place an order as usual. And they also have quite a bit of power modules (DC-DC buck with integrated inductor) at quite attractive prices.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2022, 02:24:56 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on June 24, 2022, 02:44:24 amI did a while ago, but received no response. Apparently, a single tray is not the quantity which is worth responding for them. I certainly can try to buy 10 trays and re-sell the excess. But if that was possible, someone would have done that already.Quote from: asmi on June 24, 2022, 02:44:24 amThat's a very good idea. People can buy things for prototyping, but re-seller cannot buy. Xilinx could do similar thing as well.On the other hand, I had to buy 20 CAN drivers recently. TI had good parts, but only 5 per order. So, I bought some weird parts from DigiKey.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2022, 06:06:24 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on June 23, 2022, 10:22:49 pmWhile I would prefer honesty myself as well, I can understand why they are beating around the bush. If they were plain honest, some of their competitors would likely not be, and then the latter would be likely to attract customers willing to believe there are better options out there. While *you* may not fall for that, many would. A big part of it all is this competition game, and it's neither pretty nor easy to handle. That's why I have a hard time blaming them. It's just all fucked up.You may want to ask foundries, specifically, what THEY are doing to solve the problem. As they are mostly the bottleneck here.It's not a picnic for them either though. The production capacity that would be required right now to meet demand might not be required anymore a few years from now, and those are massive investments.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2022, 06:57:00 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 24, 2022, 06:06:24 pmThat's only part of the problem. Another part is - will this increased demand remain in the future to justify these huge investment into expanded production capacity? We're talking about billions of $$$, not many are willing to risk such investments without having some certainty as to getting a return on them. With so much uncertainty, it's hard to predict which way things will go, as there are plenty of agruments both ways. Which is why I suspect more vendors will just try to ride out the storm, hoping to make it to the other side, and we would serve ourselves best to adapt to a current reality. This is hard, and I for one lost a few prospects just because I wasn't able to secure supply of parts they required in the timeframe they had allocated, which of course sucks, but it is what it is, and complaining about it on forums doesn't really help anything.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2022, 07:04:12 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on June 24, 2022, 06:57:00 pmYep. That's exactly what I meant by "The production capacity that would be required right now to meet demand might not be required anymore a few years from now, and those are massive investments."=)

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2022, 07:13:25 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 24, 2022, 07:04:12 pmYea, which is why complaining about it doesn't really serve anything, we just have to learn to deal with it, hoping that situation will eventually improve.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2022, 08:30:23 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on June 24, 2022, 06:57:00 pmThe market is supposed to take care of this. The prices should have gone up, giving TSMC and other companies bigger profit margin thereby attracting more investment. Instead, listed prices inceased by very little (say XC7A15T was $28, now it is $33), Xilinx behaves like nothing has changed, but the free market is completely destroyed. The only way to adapt to this is to abandon Xilinx completely.I still have some parts left, I could've built boards and done prototyping work, but I don't want to waste my time if they're not going to be available in the future.Discussing this on the forums certainly won't improve the situation, but may help to understand things better and make more informed decisions ... Probably not

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2022, 12:23:54 am
content: Quote from: asmi on June 24, 2022, 07:13:25 pmStill, the question is whether Altera and Xilinx remain the go-to brands for people using FPGAs. I have already put a Gowin device in one design and see myself replacing another Xilinx FPGA with one from Gowin. These designs are simply lost for Xilinx and I'm not the only one. This begs the question how much market share will Xilinx be left with once they can ramp up production? Will it even be worthwhile for them to keep producing low cost FPGAs?

author: dmendesf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2022, 02:58:02 pm
content: Probably Intel & AMD will eat the brains of Altera and Xilinx and spin off the lower end devices as other companies. They don't want to mess with that, only with the cool IA and datacenter stuff.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2022, 04:19:38 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on June 23, 2022, 07:36:40 pmI know FPGA makers always want to push their latest and greatest while not so much the families that were the latest and greatest just yesterday. Still, this looks like possibly the lowest cost Xilinx part I can use on my product, XC7S6-1FTGB196C. 1 mm ball pitch, 15x15 mm package. This should be routable with relaxed layout rules. Of course, you can't buy any, but the price, if youcouldbuy them, looks to be under $10. So it fits my board in every way. It's been a while since I've used Xilinx tools though. I'd rather use a Lattice part. I don't see where they've brought out anything interesting in a while.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2022, 04:32:03 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on June 24, 2022, 08:30:23 pmSo, if you abandon Xilinx, to where do you turn?

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2022, 04:38:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 25, 2022, 12:23:54 amYou make it sound like these companies are not able to sell product. They are selling everything they make. Just as Tesla dropped the lower cost versions of their cars, bringing up the average selling price, it would not surprise me if the FPGA companies do the same. If there are ICs they can't make due to production limitations, they are going to set aside the lower profit devices as much as they can. But they still have to meet obligations to high volume customers. I guarantee they are getting what they need first.BTW, you are aware that Xilinx doesn't own foundries, right? Or did that change over the last few years? I know AMD surprised the heck out of me when they sold off their foundries. It was a brilliant move and is paying off in spades!

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2022, 04:41:23 pm
content: Quote from: dmendesf on June 25, 2022, 02:58:02 pmI don't think it is that simple. The lower cost devices have lower prices, but much larger volumes. In the auto industry, no onewantsto sell low end cars. But they all do, and cry about the low profit margins all the way to the bank.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2022, 06:25:31 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 25, 2022, 04:38:57 pmThe question is: have they been running at full production capacity? And I mean not just now, but all through the last 2 years. If -for example- they skipped a few slots due to cancelled orders, they'll have a huge backlog to catch up. Even if they skipped only a few slots. Nothing is available from Xilinx which makes me believe they have halted production for a while.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2022, 08:04:54 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 25, 2022, 06:25:31 pmSurely they are. There are already products using their newest devices, so they must've came from somewhere. Like I said above, new AU10/15P are now in full production and available for ordering. One only needs to take a look at their financial documents to see that they are full steam ahead with manufacturing and shipping. The fact that YOU can't get them doesn't mean nobody can. From what I've heard, the lead time for their devices is now about a year, which is not a problem for commercial designs as the R&D cycle is typically at least that long, and I haven't heard that anyone was bumped off their order with Xilinx yet, regardless of the volume. It is a problem for smaller shops with shorter R&D cycles, because it forces them to buy devices in advance, and also leads to often using larger device that is strictly neccessary because that's what they stocked - being unable to source smaller devices with short lead times (read as "buy them on DK/Mouser at the last minute"), which of course cuts into profit margin and makes products more expensive then they could be in a more "normal" market. For example, I've stocked up with Artix-100T devices in 676 package because resource-wise (number of IO, LUT/FF, BRAM, DSP, MGTs) they cover anything that I've ever designed (except for one design where I used K325T device), but it's obvoisly not cheap, and in most production boards I would've used smaller devices if I would have them on hand. Which is why I'm interested in AU10/15P and thinking about placing an order - they are about 2-2.5 times faster than A100T while costing about the same, and it looks like the lead time for them is shorter than usual.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2022, 08:06:48 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on June 24, 2022, 02:24:56 pmDid you send an email from "free" providers (gmail, hotmail et al)? If so, they probably didn't receive it as they have rather aggressive spam filter. I highly recommend using corporate email address to contact them.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2022, 08:09:19 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on June 25, 2022, 08:04:54 pmWell, re-ordering for a new batch of units is a problem when production takes a year instead of months. One of my customers is basically dead in the water because of it. Before that getting boards produced wasn't a problem at all (no, not ordering from Mouser / Digikey; getting project specific pricing from Xilinx well under Mouser / Digikey prices). A re-design without Xilinx is nearby. Something is 'wrong' (=not normal) with Xilinx' production and you more or less admit it by having hoarded components yourself. Good for Xilinx if they decided to focus on new components but it seems designs that use older components are dead in the water.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2022, 11:53:29 pm
content: The point is that xilinx is making and selling a lot of chips, and many people are buying and using them. It's not that there is no problem, and it hits low volume customers the most, but what you are saying is the equivalent of "nobody goes to that restaurant anymore, it's too crowded"

author: cortex_m0
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2022, 08:27:52 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 25, 2022, 06:25:31 pmXilinx is a fabless company. Has been for many years. As such, they do not have a "full production capacity" - their capacity is whatever TSMC or Samsung or whoever says they can have. All indications are that the foundries are running at full capacity.It would not be surprising at all if Xilinx went to their foundry partner for the 7-Series to buy more capacity and were told the capacity they requested was not available.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2022, 08:32:43 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on June 25, 2022, 11:53:29 pmXilinx are not making anything. They outsource production. As they're a part of AMD now, I'm sure AMD CPUs take precedence over "cost-effective" FPGA.If you look at financials for silicon companies then you can see that the increase in revenue is modest and is mostly due to higher margins (as manifested by higher growth in profits compare to revenue), and increased cost of production. Thus there's no increase in the amount of chips they produce, the production may even have decreased. Thus the restaurant isn't too "crowded", it is rather becoming "private", unavailable to general public.Quote from: gnuarm on June 25, 2022, 04:32:03 pmI don't know yet.Quote from: asmi on June 25, 2022, 08:06:48 pmI use business email everywhere. I usually fill in the sales contact form on the Web when I want to contact sales. This shouldn't go through the spam filter.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2022, 08:49:36 pm
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on June 26, 2022, 08:27:52 pmThat is why I wrote 'skipped a few slots'. Foundries likely have some slot allocation for their customers. If a customer cancels a slot, then the foundry will fill that slot with producing something else (if they can) and the original customer has to queue at the end of the line if they want to request new slot allocations.

author: cortex_m0
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2022, 08:57:37 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on June 26, 2022, 08:32:43 pmI doubt there is anything AMD still makes that competes with the 6- and 7- series Xilinx parts for fab time. Maybe some of the UltraScale and UltraScale+ FPGAs, but that's definitely not a low end FPGA.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2022, 09:04:35 pm
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on June 26, 2022, 08:57:37 pmThat's a fair point. The process nodes are definitely not the same.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2022, 09:36:48 pm
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on June 26, 2022, 08:57:37 pmIt depends on what they compete for. As I understand, there are shortages of many raw materials which may be needed for wide variety of processes.If the shortages were process-specific, they wouldn't be as severe as they are.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2022, 09:42:09 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on June 26, 2022, 08:32:43 pmThere is no competition for fab space between those. Ultrascale+ uses TSMC 16FF. Lower cost FPGAs use older processes. AMDs old zen1 CPUs use GF 14 nm finfets. Zen 2 uses 7 nm with a 12 nm IO die. There is no overlap between high performance CPUs and GPUs with FPGAs except for Intel AgileX devices which use intel's cursed 10 nm process.As I understand the thing that is competing with FPGAs is high speed networking and IO. Analog and IO performance doesn't improve much or even gets worse with smaller feature sizes, so a lot of those chips stick with nodes in the 28 nm range -- used by xilinx in their 7 series. So I think it is switches and routers going into massive cloud data centers and 5G network deployments that are taking up all the capacity that could be used for FPGAs not CPUs and GPUs.

author: miken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 04:00:55 am
content: Xilinx is an investor in Efinix, so presumably they intend to cede the low end as time goes by.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 04:13:54 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 25, 2022, 06:25:31 pmThat last bit is unclear. Are you saying, "nothing is available" which makes you think Xilinx has halted production??? Or there is no news available that would make you think think Xilinx might have halted production?Why would you think they've stopped production?

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 04:16:54 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 25, 2022, 08:09:19 pmFocusing on new products does not mean abandoning old ones, unless possibly the new parts are in full production, which from this conversation sounds to me like they are not.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 04:20:19 am
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on June 26, 2022, 08:27:52 pmYeah, right. I think they get a better reception than that. Also, I don't think they wake up one morning and decide to place an order for a million parts of a new product line. Every step of the way, they are coordinating with the foundry. So if they have a new line of parts to work into a production schedule, they may not get as many as they want, but theywillbe worked in as much as possible.

author: jayk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 04:42:54 am
content: The Artix US+ do look interesting, and I agree they may actually be more available simply because they're new and not in as much demand.Do you know if they're supported by Vivado Standard? This makes it look like only the largest AU25P is supported by the free verison:https://www.xilinx.com/products/design-tools/vivado/vivado-ml.html#architecture.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 05:13:03 am
content: Anyone heard of Cologne Chip? They are German and seem to have out the smallest part in their product line, 20kLUTs. The LUT structure is a bit unique, with 8 inputs to a "LUT-tree" which can be configured as a pair of 4LUTs or something else I haven't found yet. Only a single package, 324 pin, 0.8 mm BGA.The most interesting part is Digikey has them in stock!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 08:34:19 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 27, 2022, 05:13:03 amInteresting indeed. Cologne chip has been around for several decades but I didn't know they where into FPGA.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 02:06:35 pm
content: Quote from: jayk on June 27, 2022, 04:42:54 amI've asked this question during one of their webinars, and they confirmed that entire Artix US+ family will be available in free license.

author: jayk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 06:37:16 pm
content: Good to hear. I happened to talk to our Xilinx sales rep this morning and they're saying the lead-time on the Artix US+ isn't really any better than the Spartan-7 and Artix at this point. They're saying the 'recovery' time for pretty much all parts is 2H 2023.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 06:48:41 pm
content: Quote from: jayk on June 27, 2022, 06:37:16 pmIf only that were true.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2022, 04:42:32 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 27, 2022, 06:48:41 pmYou guys do know, the chip makers are losing money too, right? They would love to be selling more chips. But they can only build new fabs so fast.It's weird that we got into this situation in the first place. Does anyone really understand what happened?

author: Wiljan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2022, 04:53:52 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 27, 2022, 05:13:03 amInteresting chipIn the documentationhttps://www.colognechip.com/programmable-logic/gatemate/#documentationin the "GateMate Primitives Library (March 2022)" pdf on page 45 it tells how the LUT are combined in a LUT tree wit up to 8 inputs, I did short hope the they actually had an 8 input LUT I could use as lookup table for 8x8 (256) ... but no luck here

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2022, 05:37:44 pm
content: Now I'm disappointed. I figured the LUT would be a pair of LUT4s with some clever combining logic. But there are no LUT4s even. They use LUT2s with more LUT2s to combine them. So rather restricted in the logic which can be implemented in a single LUT-tree. The LUT2 seems to be the actual primitive hardware element in the CPE Logic element. They never show you how they can be connected or how many there are. 2 input what-not gates.I also noticed the chip doesn't have 3.3V I/Os either. 2.5V max it looks like. That's a bigger problem and precludes this device from my current need.