12 layer board? Surface mount components? It's all so 1960s! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ecat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2012, 10:32:56 pm
content: Just stumbled across this video on the logic boards used in the old Apollo Saturn V rockets...Bloody hell.Makes you wonder how far ahead of the game we would be if the investment and programs had continued.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2012, 11:34:41 pm
content: I found some more Saturn V boards here:http://www.vintchip.com/mainframe/nasalvdc/apollolvdc.htmlSame stuff, a lot of surface mounted ceramic packaged parts.

author: ecat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 12:03:02 am
content: Nice link, ty.So, here's part one of the service manual for the whole computerhttp://www.vintchip.com/mainframe/nasalvdc/LaboratoryMaintenanceInstructionsForLVDC-Volume1-GeneralDescriptionAndTheory.pdf... 9MB, I'll read it tomorrow

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 12:58:56 am
content: Quite a lot of the technical info here too:http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/links.htmlVirtual AGC — AGS — LVDC — GeminiDocument Library PageApollo and Gemini Computing SystemsFor some nostalgia value:http://www.boingboing.net/2010/04/26/apollo-11-launch-rev.htmlApollo 11 launch revisited in slow-mo HDLinks from reader comments there:Saturn V Launch Views - High Speed Cams 480pif you're hungry for more, here is 4,230 more Apollo related media items from nasaimages.org - including hours of slow motion video. All available for hi-res download. And if you'd rather view it at the Internet Archive:http://www.archive.org/details/nasaSomewhere I have a pile of info on the AGS, including some guy that home-built a complete working duplicate.And a fascinating article on the non-volatile program storage used in the AGM - it was core memory, with the data hand-woven in, by ladies threading tiny wires according to the raw binary tables of the code.But can I find it? No. Damned epistemological filing failures.That almost all of the Apollo program technical information was lost or destroyed afterwards, stands as one of the most outrageous, wanton, criminal information losses of all time. They even lost most of the video and telemetry tapes. This 'losing stuff' syndrome seems to be a constant at all levels of importance.Heh. The lady making the video is hot. Wish I knew a tech-girl.

author: codeboy2k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 03:49:10 am
content: @TerraHertz... thanks for those links... brings back memoriesPretty awesome firepower.Quote from: TerraHertz on January 01, 2013, 12:58:56 amYour post verifies that she has been successful at her transformation.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 08:01:06 am
content: Quote from: codeboy2k on January 01, 2013, 03:49:10 amComments like that are why girls stay away from the forum

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 09:15:11 am
content: Fascinating video.IMHO the limitations in the early days were not simply about technology (after all, engineers then were just as smart and creative as they are now), but about costs and manufacturing. Someone in the sixties could think about and design a multi-layer surface mount board, but where were the factories and assembly facilities to mass produce them and test them? A one-off design, hand built and tested with cost no object is quite different from commonplace commercialized technology.I think we may sometimes forget today how much invisible infrastructure lies behind what we take for granted like a basic iPhone circuit board. I read recently that it is no longer possible to manufacture such boards in the USA as all the required production expertise has moved to China. The iPhone can be designed in California but it can't be made in California even if Apple wanted to.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 09:42:13 am
content: The avionics and military were using 4 layer and more boards in the late 1960's/ early 1970's for size and complexity reasons. They also were using flexible boards, along with surface mount and switching power supplies. I did work on 4 layer, 5 layer and up to 18 layer boards, most layers was 22 layers of flexiboard used to do interconnects between the backplane and the chassis connections, where they were all stacked on top of long pins and then soldered. Broken trace there you ran a jumper wire, and took a month or more to change a socket with a broken pin, as often they had 6 or more flexiboards soldered to them.The little stack module i have on my desk is simple, only double sided boards, just a stack 5 high made in around 1974 from the datecodes.

author: codeboy2k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 10:05:22 am
content: Quote from: Psi on January 01, 2013, 08:01:06 amMy comment wasn't meant to attack anyone. I simply stated that her transformation from a man to a woman was obviously successful, since it elicited the comment from Mr. TerraHertz.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 10:31:38 am
content: I hope she never reads this thread.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 11:02:17 am
content: Huh. That was unexpected.http ://artforum.com/video/search_video=transgender&page_id=2&mode=large&youtube_id=i8eCb8FVDnQKudos to her.I still think she's hot.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 12:39:38 pm
content: Not many women in electronics, but there are women on this forum, pretty bright ones as well, definitely bright.

author: Alana
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 01:47:57 pm
content: I'm a tranny myself and i dont get bothered with comments like codeboy's. Transexual transformation is engenering too, and damn interesting. I'd not worry :dAnd for those boards. What was technology back then for mass production of PCB?

author: justanothercanuck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 01:51:17 pm
content: Quote from: Alana on January 01, 2013, 01:47:57 pmHow can you be transgendered and use words like "tranny" or "shemale"...edit: I'm transgendered, and I wouldn't associate myself with someone who uses derogatory words like that. The only TG's I've seen who use them are escorts, and I can't say I'd associate with them either.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 03:07:26 pm
content: Quote from: justanothercanuck on January 01, 2013, 01:51:17 pmBecause not everybody is so easily offended? "Tranny" seems to me to have potential to be just a 'short form', not derogatory.QuoteWhy? Can't you just learn to accept that people have different opinions? I can see it if offense wereintended, but it clearly wasn't.

author: Alana
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 03:29:07 pm
content: Different countries, different cultures, differet meaning of words. Here tranny is short for transsexual and this is the only meaning known to me.And... my friend sayd once that you can say you have sense of humor, you accepted yourself, only if you can laugh at jokes about dumb blondes without urges to paint your hair dark...

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 04:25:23 pm
content: And here I am thinking about automotive gerarboxes and drivetrains..................

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 05:23:14 pm
content: QuoteI thought it meant transistor radio.....QuoteIt might be but all "commonplace commercialized technology" started off as a hand built prototype somewhere. Heck, the first transistor and IC were both hand built.

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 05:31:07 pm
content: nice boardIt's nice that everyone on this forum is so tolerant. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy, especially considering it is the new year.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 05:53:42 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on January 01, 2013, 05:23:14 pmAnd I was thinking of a Ford Van.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 06:00:51 pm
content: Transit vans were never that popular here, more common was the 1-2-3 Concertina..... 1 bottle brandy, 2 litre Coke, 3 litre ford, floor.........

author: ecat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 06:06:42 pm
content: Well, that was an unexpected twist to the threadIf any wish to continue the emergent discussion, please remain civil. Vive la différence.Back to the boards.Were they really hand made? I guess a sandwich of 1 double sided and 10 single sided, accurately drilled, then stacked and plated. Child's play today -- but this was 1965, I imagine thishttp://www.mbzponton.org/n2awa/grundig2440u.htmland thisthe last thing I'd imagine is high density, multi-layer digital electronics. Wow. And if demand is sufficient we build a machine, and if demand continues to grow we build a machine that will build the machine.That CPU is interesting too, containing an integer unit and an asynchronous floating point unit. Must read up some more

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 06:36:26 pm
content: Quote from: ecat on January 01, 2013, 06:06:42 pmOf course they were. Automated assembly only makes sense for production runs of 1000's. When you only need a few dozen items you assemble them by hand, rather like people do with SMT today using toaster ovens."Technology" is not about features like 12 layer boards or surface mount or miniaturization, it is about factories that can produce that stuff by the million with six sigma levels of quality and consistency. The difficulty lies in routine low cost production with minimal failures, not in the cleverness of the idea. They absolutely couldn't mass produce that stuff in the 60's, and that is what is different about today.

author: codeboy2k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2013, 11:40:32 pm
content: Quote from: Alana on January 01, 2013, 01:47:57 pmDid I really say anything that would be considered offensive by anyone, transgendered or not? I said she was successful. Is that offensive? And she's already public about being transgendered and I knew that before I posted. So I didn't post to be mean or offensive. My apologies to anyone who misinterpreted what I said.Cheers! lets get back on topicThe fact that they even started making SMT chips like that back in the 60's really surprised me. We didn't see anything mass produced on the market until 20 yrs or so later. In the meantime, we stuck with DIPS. Maybe DIPS were easier to mass produce, or easier to apply in products, which led to their development and mass marketing before SMT.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2013, 06:26:16 am
content: Through hole components were much better for hand assembly, as SMT demanded so much more precision, and the original placement units were not capable of the required precision without slowing down, plus they needed an adhesive step during assembly. Unless all are adhered and thus there is a stencil just doing this fore a few per board works out expensive. Remember up till about 2000 a lot of boards were hand stuffed, and even now a lot of work is done manually.

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2013, 10:52:44 am
content: The comparison of the technology jump isn't completely fair since you are comparing low cost now with extreme high cost in the past.And obviously there is a lot more circuitry in the same space now than in the past.(with an average speed of doubling approximately every two years)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 02, 2013, 12:50:00 pm
content: It seemed to me like tyhe remark had been a while coming and this was as close an opportunity to getting to air it.The poster has been given a 60 day cooling off period..........

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 02, 2013, 02:34:22 pm
content: Kudos forum for handling your differences in a nice way.It has been a very interesting thread so far so please don't let a single outlier detract you from the main topic(s)People are different, and the more of them the merrier, especially if they are interested in electronicsA while back Chris and Dave talked about 30+ layer PCBs. Since then I red somewhere that main advantage is to be able to put components buried inside the PCB. Another advantage being that it is also possible to run liquid cooling channels just like any other trace.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2013, 03:17:47 pm
content: Quote from: HAL-42b on January 02, 2013, 02:34:22 pmWell of course the main blindness about conventional circuit boards is that they are flat and two dimensional. A lot more could be achieved if circuits were constructed in three dimensional cuboid form. The whole thing could be more compact and traces could take shorter paths between components. It may be that ground planes would become "ground meshes". Instead of removing heat by means of large copper areas on a flat board, heat could be removed instead by interleaving heat pipes through the matrix connecting with fins on the outside of the assembly.All it needs is for someone to invent the technology and make it practical.

author: JoannaK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2013, 03:42:18 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on January 02, 2013, 03:17:47 pmOn neat ideas I have seen lately is 3D printable wiring using regular (consumer) 3D printer. That is using 2 (or more) head printer to print both board and connection wires. IIRC the exiating wiring material ain't nearly as conductive as normal copper lines, so there will be some issues and difficulties, but it's possible the system will develop to something really interesting in future.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 02, 2013, 04:15:52 pm
content: QuoteSounds close to multiwire automated routing technique. Some of the coolest things it can do are routing of twisted pair and coaxial, matched lenght etc.Unfotunately it seems highly proprietory.http://www.hitachi-chemical.com/products_pwb_05.htm

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 02, 2013, 10:10:55 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on January 01, 2013, 04:25:23 pmYep. And in the electronics industry "tranny" is also short for transistor, it's very common. Sure I've probably used it in at least a few videos somewhere. Sorry if that upsets any transgender people, you have to learn to accept that there are other uses for terms.So we have at least two transgender people on the forum? + Fran (who messaged me her video, and watches the blog, so might end up here one day). Wow, that's more common than I thought. Kudos to Fran and others who come outDave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 02, 2013, 10:23:52 pm
content: It makes you wonder how many people are still left that would know anything about this computer board, or even the (many I'm sure) people who designed it?IIRC the average age of people working on the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo programs was the mid 20's or something, so even that young age puts them well and truly in the senior citizen class nowThere is a book on the Apollo guidance computer:http://www.amazon.co.uk/Apollo-Guidance-Computer-Architecture-Exploration/dp/1441908765I hope someone with info on this one comes forward.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 02, 2013, 11:31:53 pm
content: Quote from: ecat on January 01, 2013, 12:03:02 amVolume II is here:http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/Documents/LaboratoryMaintenanceInstructionsForLVDC-Volume2-MaintenanceData.pdfAnd there is a ton of Apollo documents in the main directory!http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/Documents/Dave.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2013, 01:04:17 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 02, 2013, 10:10:55 pmIt's interesting that two important chip design engineers are also transgender people.Lynn Conway was a pioneer in VLSI design and developed techniques used by most modern computer chips, and Sophie Wilson created the ARM instruction set, which is now in tens of billions of chips all over the planet.

author: JoannaK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2013, 01:48:38 am
content: Quote from: rolycat on January 03, 2013, 01:04:17 amLive and learn.. Every day something new.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2013, 02:25:27 am
content: Cmon, noLink to schematics?You would think I was on some old hen's forum rather than the EEVBlog.Interesting how it's all designed around one gate. Wikipedia told me the other day that the Block I AGCs used 1 NOR per chip while the Block II had 2 NOR per chip, which saved 1300 ICs but had many more instructions.EDIT: Haha, I should have watched the video first! LVDC not the AGC...

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2013, 07:25:27 am
content: This reminds me of a few old IBM boards I've had sitting in a display case for years. See pics.These were from an IBM mainframe I think, but I've no idea what type or vintage.On one of the boards I've peeled the thin metal covers off three of the large rectangular devices. They contain silicon chips, circuit side down, solder bump mounted to the ceramic 'carrier circuit' base. Looks like the chips are relatively high density (for that time), based on the number of connections.If anyone does know the year range in which this kind of board technology was used, I'd like to know. I'm certain it was well before IBM developed their early home PCs, which leads to interesting thoughts on why they didn't choose to use this technology for their PC. It would have been uncopyable by competitors at that time. Yeah, my theory is theywantedeveryone to copy their deliberately crappy-architecture PC design, in order to hobble the technology of cheap computing by a decade or more, while IBM maximized their investment return in large mainframes. Hence IBM never suing anyone for copying their BIOS, including the '(c) IBM' texts. I've heard many small anecdotes supporting this idea over the years, but never anything solid.Segmented memory architecture - good joke, IBM. (Yes I know it was Intel, but it was IBM that chose to base a major computing platform on it.)The small desoldered rectangular things in pics 2338,9 are much earlier vintage than the other boards. The one I peeled the thin aluminium top can off contains four single transistors and three resistors, under a soft silicone-like coating, on a ceramic base with metal leads soldered through. I think these were from some PCBs I obtained in my childhood, so around the 1960s or earlier.... maybe.Most regretted toss-out of my life: the big block of core memory I binned in my 20s. <wince>About the transgender thing. It's more likely that people with the engineering mindset would treat gender dissatisfaction as an engineering problem to be fixed, than non-engineers.But really, gender switches are trivial compared to what will become possible once the technology of true genetic engineering develops to the point where full gene-mod toolchains become covertly available. Ie can be used secretly by hackers. Heh - if you think some people have an overly hostile view of transgender persons, wait till individuals start turning up that have transcended speciation. Race hatred and witch pogroms will pale in comparison.A short SF story I wrote on this, here:http://everist.org/texts/Fermis_Urbex_Paradox.htmHope you enjoy it.PS. Yes I know the writing style changes as the story progresses. It'smeant to. You figure out why.

author: Nermash
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2013, 09:36:18 am
content: Regarding the Apollo guidance computer, I've found this video really fascinatinghttp://youtu.be/Y7sMe52fEAcTry to think what you would have done if placed in the shoes of those hw and sw engineers back then:)It is part of "Moon machines" series broadcasted on PBS in USA I think, and every single one thematic episode is very interesting.

author: Tuomas
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2013, 09:38:57 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 02, 2013, 10:23:52 pmI actually own this book. There is a reason why it gets so many 5 star Amazon reviews. It is excellent.The book gives a pretty comprehensive and well-rounded description of the AGC hardware, software, the reasons behind alot of the design choices, and what the AGC actually does throughout an Apollo mission. One nice part of the book is this 40-page description of the lunar landing, explaining what the AGC is doing in pretty minute details, what the astronauts do and how the AGC and astronauts interact with eachother.Highly recommeded.It doesn't really talk much about the LVDC, though, which is supposed to be the topic here. The pages 235-245, which are about Saturn V launch, do include explanations of what the LVDC does during the launch.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2013, 09:50:15 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 03, 2013, 07:25:27 amThe square white ceramic things looking like mini PCBs with soldered through pins (e.g. in picture 5) are ceramic substrates. I worked at an IBM plant being constructed to make these things in 1982, so they were considered current technology at that time. I may even have some production test pieces kept as souvenirs somewhere. They were also encased in acrylic and given out as paperweights.As far as I remember, they might not only have gone into big iron mainframes. IBM was also producing many mid-range minicomputer style systems at the time and they could have been used in those too.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2013, 10:14:56 am
content: QuoteI was never a fan of the segmented architecture either - but the 8086 is stuck with the problem of reaching a 24-bit address range with 16-bit registers. It's worthwhile thinking through howyoumight have solved this and what all the trade-offs are before slagging off the Intel designers.

author: cwalex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2013, 11:16:44 am
content: Quote from: IanB on January 02, 2013, 03:17:47 pmSounds like it would be a nightmare to repair but since board level repairs seem to be declining it might be a moot point.

author: JoannaK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2013, 02:35:16 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 02, 2013, 10:10:55 pmActually.. Make that three. Yes, there, I said that, not sure what happens (if anything), but information is what it is and when it's out it's really hard to hide again at digital era.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2013, 03:03:16 pm
content: Those boards come from an IBM minicomputer, I have some around somewhere.......... Got them at an auction.Date coded 1982, they probably are still being made for spare parts.

author: ecat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2013, 06:06:54 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 02, 2013, 11:31:53 pmMore reading... err.. ty@TerraHertz,Looks like IBM Solid Logic Technologyhttp://www.computerhistory.org/semiconductor/timeline/1964-Hybrid.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Solid_Logic_TechnologyCould certainly be related to the LVDC stuff.

author: ecat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2013, 06:23:01 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 03, 2013, 07:25:27 amCommercial politics aside - because they could be true, some decisions came down to cost, pure and simple. Also IBM had no idea of how many PCs they would ship.On copying the BIOS. The IBM PC was intended as a totally open platform - something Microsoft has been trying to fix for 3 decades - the original PC technical manual contained not only a description of operations, it had full schematics of all circuitry and a full, commented listing the BIOS assembly code. To the best of my knowledge IBM positively encouraged building clones.Also worth noting in passing. The Digital Research operating system of the time, fully multi tasking Concurrent CPM allowed for scatter loading making good use of segmented memory.

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2013, 09:43:43 pm
content: Anytime I think of technology from that era I think of Voyager 1 and 2 . Both continue to work after over 30 years. The voyager projects are the best return on investment ever spent on space exploration.Currently takes 16 hours 38 minutes to send a 1 way signal. JPL expects to be able to continue receiving data for another 20-30 years.Schematics can be found here:http://voyager.ftecs.com/figures.htmlLots of good stuff built mainly with CD4000 series parts.My favorite one is the A/D built with flip flopshttp://voyager.ftecs.com/calibrations-chandefs/pha/1540schematic.pdf

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 04, 2013, 05:26:36 am
content: Quote from: ecat on January 03, 2013, 06:23:01 pmExcept for the BIOS code. Although it was open, you couldn't just copy it.It took Compaq a year to black box reverse engineer the BIOS so they didn't get sued, but that made them the first 100% compatible clone maker.Dave.

author: nardev
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 04, 2013, 05:46:14 am
content: SO,to conclude, Arduinos can take us up to the moon?HA HA HACOOL video

author: Frantone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2013, 11:46:39 pm
content: X-ray Analysis of the Apollo Saturn V LVDC Circuit Board

author: nardev
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 05, 2013, 12:07:37 am
content: I'm not sure if i you said it in video, where did you get that board actually?

author: Frantone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2013, 01:02:18 am
content: I got the board from a collector in the 1990s who had purchased the board with many other Apollo items at auction in the 1970's. Although Apollo era tech artifacts are hard to acquire nowadays they were all around the Space/Aviation enthusiast community in the 70's and 80's when few other people wanted such objects.

author: mark-r
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2013, 01:31:44 am
content: Quote from: ptricks on January 03, 2013, 09:43:43 pmI'm surprised they're still working. I thought 4000-series CMOS suffered from a failure mode where the metal from the gate slowly diffuses into the silicon and eventually shorts the gate to ground. I repair vintage synths and often find dead 4000-series chips in them.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2013, 06:16:58 am
content: Welcome Fran, nice video there. Nice to see the insides of those boards without damaging them. It seems the actual boards were uncommitted, the socket did the interconnecting needed. Plug and Play is not new......One I worked on is herehttp://flic.kr/p/5YMdWcwhich had a minor overvolt - 14V from a failed 5V regulator for a few hours, only failure was ironically a 30v rated open collector 5403 device that popped it's lid.

author: nardev
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 05, 2013, 06:31:29 am
content: Quote from: Frantone on January 05, 2013, 01:02:18 amThe top story would be to bring in some of engineers who was involved in designing those boards and computers and interview him/her.

author: Frantone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2013, 06:38:59 pm
content: I have the word out in the IBM world for people who worked on the project but as of yet no leads. Numerous searches came up with nothing. It has been speculated to me by insiders that much of this technology remains classified. I speculate that due to the short life of the Apollo program that much of this innovation was militarized, and perhaps that some of these cold war systems may still be active in some way.

author: nardev
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 01:11:57 am
content: Once i found Lecture for MIT students by 2 or 3 engineers who were involved in designing computers for space shuttle. It was crazy and very interesting lecture but i can't find it any more.However, there is series of lecture from MIT uploaded on youtube, but it's more about structure than about computer in shuttle.Here is the first lecture with some of original engineers talking there:

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 01:15:54 am
content: Quote from: Frantone on January 05, 2013, 06:38:59 pmIt's quite believable. There are other similar cases, for instance the Farnsworth Fusor. The research program at ITT was going well, ITT had scheduled an investor meeting where they were going to announce a large increase in the scale of the project, and then suddenly... meeting canceled, project shut down, crickets.... And Farnsworth dies soon after. That was in the late 1960s.The Fusor was a valve-like device, that generated very powerful neutron fluxes. Now when one researches nuclear weapons technology one finds rumors that to improve conversion efficiency, nukes use a "valve like device, that generates a neutron pulse." More than that is classified. However I'd lay a bet that Fusor research at that time was pulled under the military cone of silence.Another story - the RCA 1802 CPU. The first fully CMOS CPU. It was extremely low power and fully static - the clock could be stopped and started without losing state. It was designed for controlling nuclear weapons. One amusing detail - the 1802 has no 'return from subroutine' instruction. I guess a nuke controller doesn't need one.

author: JackOfVA
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 01:45:43 am
content: Westinghouse made some DTL logic chips in surface mount "flatpack" style in the mid 1960's. I have (or at least I used to have, been years since I last saw them) a couple around here. We used these in EE lab class on digital logic in 1967. As I recall they were simple gates, NAND, NOR and the like, but since it's 45 years since I looked at them, my recollection could well be wrong.At the time, we were told these were made for ICBM computers - Minuteman - have no idea if that was the case or not.In any event, the flatpacks were physically about half the size of a DIP8 and extremely thin.Jack

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 02:16:20 am
content: Quote from: Frantone on January 05, 2013, 06:38:59 pmThe technology might still be used in ICBM's or something like that, in which case they would still be active and classified.That sort of technology never gets updated in such systems, they just continue to maintain the old boards and systems.Makes sense, because the Saturn 5 Apollo rocket and ICBM's are essentially the same thing, but one carries people, the other MIRV's.So I would not be surprised to see the Saturn V using ICBM technology.Dave.

author: silicon_ghost
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 02:52:17 am
content: Too cool

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 03:20:10 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 06, 2013, 01:15:54 amBut a CALL without a RETURN is just a GOTO then, so was never a CALL to start with?

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 03:31:47 am
content: Believe it or not, you can still buy rad-hard 1802s... Intersil makes them in a ceramic package with side-brazed leads.Only $120 a piece!The Galileo probe had six 1802s on it also.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 04:17:45 am
content: Wow, I wouldnotbe holding that with my fingers while attempting to X-Ray through the entire plane of the PCB.So many people seem to think X-Rays are harmless. They are not. Like any ionizing radiation there's always cellular and chromosome damage, in proportion to the exposure level.Speaking as someone who in 2012 received an X-Ray overdose that resulted in superficial burns much like sunburn, and is now taking an alternative anti-cancer treatment for an indefinite number of years as a result.Was due to a doctor getting carried away, and taking too many 'pretty pics' in one session.Why do you think that hand-held X-Ray tube has a thick backscatter shield?Edit: Doctors and X-Ray machines are much like dentists and mercury amalgam fillings. They don't want to know or admit the harmful effects, since it would make their practice much more difficult, open them to malpractice class action lawsuits, and generally make them feel bad about what they do.For eg: mamograms increase breast cancer risk:http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/03/03/experts-say-avoid-mammograms.aspx

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 04:37:56 am
content: the 1802 processor was not designed specifically for nukes. it was RCA's first attempt at integrating the older 1801 in the new COSMOS process technology. But, due to the fact it is a fully static core you can clock it as slow as you want. Now what does this mean 'static core' . A bipolar microprocessor is ALWAYS a static core. you can take any bipolar processor and turnd own the clock to zilch and nothing will get lost. Things are different with CMOS . the internal flipflops are constructed as dram cells to save die space ... and if you don;t refresh these ... their contents get lost over time. since in the cpu the clock is always running there is continuous refresh even if it is executing NOP instructions... the 1802 is an excepetion as they opted to construct real flipflops as opposed to dram cells so you can turn the clock off without problems. This made it a very low power machine. many systems used a dynamic clocking system altering the clock speed to save as much power as possible. that is why this thing was so useful in early satellites... ( combined with the fact it was avaialble as a rad-hard version constructed in SOS (silicon-on-sapphire) technology )the 1802 also knows the SEX instruction...

author: andyturk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 06:38:47 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 06, 2013, 04:37:56 amELF SEX?

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 08:53:20 am
content: Looking at the datasheets (still online, along with 1802 emulators), there was a RETURN instruction, but it didn't really operate in any traditional fashion. There was no CALL instruction.Subroutines were weird, because what the 1802 DID have was the "SEP" instruction (closely related to SEX, by the way.) SEP (SEt Programcounter) would select which one of the 16 general purpose registers to use as the program counter. For fast access to a subroutine, you could leave its address in one of the registers, and just do "SEP R" to start it and "SEP StandardPCReg" to return. RCA had a standard method of implementing a more traditional stack-based call-like structure, which used the above technique to call a "helper" that would push the old values on a RAM stack. It was a bit slow and used several registers (at least one for the callhelper, one for the returnhelper, and one for the stack.) (It's described here:http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/cosmacelf/message/78)SEX was "SEt indeX register", BTW. The 1802 had a strange architecture, but it had quite a bit of internal consistency. With a bit of a HW background, you could picture how it was working inside (one of the things you lose programming in a HLL.)

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 09:17:04 am
content: About those old IBM boards I posted pics of, there's a little discussion of the same type of boards at Bunnie's blog.http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?paged=4Incidentally his most recent post should be very interesting to many here: how to manufacture electronics (especially in China.)

author: nardev
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 09:25:34 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 06, 2013, 09:17:04 amsweet blog

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 11:20:02 am
content: QuoteSounds closer to malpractice than getting "carried away", I'd be interested to hear the details. At diagnostic energies (typically 60-120keV) comparatively more dose is absorbed in skin (and bone) but radiologists are usuallyveryclued up on radiation doses and effects and I'd be quite surprised to see a radiation burn from a simple diagnostic procedure - not to say it doesn't very occasionally happen as appears to so in your case.QuoteExactly the opposite is true, or should be. Doctorsshouldknow andshouldadmit to the hazardous effects of treatment - because it is your right as a patient (in the UK at least) to enquire about and to and receive this information.The key is benefit vs harm - it is reasonable to undergo a diagnostic procedure with a risk if the benefit (discovering treatable disease) outweighs the risk. The risk of mammography is approx 1:8000 - i.e it is thought the risk is one excess cancer per 8000 mammograms. It is felt that this is acceptable given that mammography in the UK discovers about 12-15,000 breast cancers per year.Youarecorrect that there is controversy surrounding mammography at present but that is because the natural history of cancer is now more fully understood and it is likely that some of these cancers would never have grown to become clinically relevant so there might be "over-treatment" of some cancers (with attendant harm) shifting the benefit/harm balance. However the re-analysis of the data is usually coming from the medical profession itself.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 11:36:54 am
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on January 06, 2013, 11:20:02 amX-Ray vasography, with contrast. 12 images over half an hour. 68KV. Guess where the burn was.I think he was a bit mystified by what he was seeing. It's complicated. So kept taking snaps. He's a urologist/surgeon, not a radiologist. I was under general, so not sure if a radiologist was involved. And I wasn't there to tell him to stop.I have the X-Ray pics, and pics of the surface result. But ha ha ... I don't think the exterior shots are suitable for this forum, and aren't very good porn either.Anyway I'm not complaining. The results were very helpful.Edit: correction, 22 images not 12, over an hour and half. I just had a look a the data files. Only about half the images were printed out.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 12:05:17 pm
content: QuoteAh, OK - still sounds like he should have kept a better eye on total dose.QuoteOuch.QuoteI'm glad to hear that

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 05:35:49 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on January 06, 2013, 08:53:20 amAnd there is a problem with most modern coders. They don't know their target machine. Early cpu's were bot targeted towards a HLL... Although the first HLL for the 1802. Was forth....The old NMT450 phones ( nokia Mobira ). Ran on 1802 cpu's...

author: Frantone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 07:56:34 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 06, 2013, 04:17:45 amNot harmless, but low risk. I do it all for science! I have had my arms bathed in every kind of solvent and carcinogen known. Decades of chemical exposure.... I've been electrocuted dozens of times.... Nerve damage? Absolutely. Lead poisoning? Occasionally. Hazard and risk are part of being an engineer. If you you are in the field a lot, and if want to do real science and build real stuff, you put yourself in harms way a lot. The LVDC board is very valuable, so I held it.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2013, 01:18:29 pm
content: Quote from: Frantone on January 06, 2013, 07:56:34 pmBah. A small cardboard box would have propped it up just fine.You're right there are many risks, and sometimes it's worth going for it. Still, I'd prefer to live a long life. Hence buying a gamma spectrometer before undertaking high voltage work in vacuum, etc.But then there are the unexpected risks. Here's an example of one few would expect.In mid 2010 I was repairing a HP 6269B power supply. Rated output: 40V @ 50A. Slight problem - what to use for a dummy load? So I built a 0.8 ohm 2KW 'resistor'. I had a frame that already had a bunch of big power resistors on heatsinks, but it needed more. Which I happened to have in the junk box. But considering how to wire them up, I decided it would be a good idea to use heat-resistant wire. Rummaging, I found I had some old ex-military aviation teflon insulated wire. Lovely stuff. So I spent about three days constructing this thing, and forming looms of the nice teflon covered wire between the resistor banks and a rear patch panel so I could modify the dummy load value in future.The old wire felt kind of slippery, like it had silicone oil on it. It was getting on my fingers, and turned out to be impossible to wash off, just like silicone oil. About the second day I noticed the skin was kind of thickening up.Day three, there was obviously a problem. Major skin death, losing some feeling in fingertips. Developed thick callouses, skin splitting down to base flesh. By about a week, was getting slight numbness all over body. But more seriously... soles of feet and toes going extremely numb. I'd had minor frostbite of feet during a mountain climb in Tasmania years before, numb feet, but they recovered over a year. Now the same thing was back.Long story short, it turns out teflon breaks down over time to something called PFOA, or C8. Subchains of the polymer. They are extremely nasty - virtually indestructible, no known breakdown mechanism in the environment, neither bacterial or UV. They are one of the major environmental contaminants, just continually accumulating. And very little understanding of their effects. In Australia my doc & I couldn't even find any available blood analysis test for them. The general skin numbness went away gradually, but I still have very annoying numbness/burning sensation in the soles of my feet over two years later.On the other hand, I've walked through drifts of loose blue asbestos dust in an abandoned power station, and got polychlorinated biphenol (PCB) insulating oil on my hands while dissecting an old X-Ray machine head, with no ill effects (so far.) But I really think I'm pushing my luck, and now try hard to minimize such risks.Here's a pic of the 6269B dumping 40V x 50A into the completed dummy load. You can see some of the neurotoxic teflon wire - all the blue and white wires on the load unit. I still use it - just don't touch the wires much.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2013, 04:47:13 pm
content: Interesting, none of the PTFE wire I have is doing that.

author: svofski
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2013, 05:41:01 pm
content: Yups.. very strange. I use PTFE-insulated wire almost exclusively (not so often, I'm just a hobbyist and I hate wires in general). But PTFE is known to be very inert, they make body jewelry and prosthetics from it.

author: Frantone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2013, 09:27:09 pm
content: Full size images of the X-rays are now available here:http://www.frantone.com/designwritings/design_writings.html#xray

author: Baliszoft
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2013, 09:38:34 pm
content: Very cool, thanks for sharing!

author: Frantone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2013, 10:55:33 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 07, 2013, 01:18:29 pmI have run into something like this oil myself on old gear with simillar caustic effects though not to this extent - I don't think it was from teflon in my case. I assumed it was an alkaline fluid due to the drying out of the skin and that soap did not seem to stop the reaction.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2013, 12:39:50 am
content: It's intriguing that the inner layer tracks in that X-ray image are so fine. It looks very much the same as the tracks visible in the later IBM multi-layer boards.One thing though - I understood you to have said you think the board is uncommitted, with all the chip connections brought out to the edge connector.Are you sure? There don't appear to be enough pins on the edge connector, for the number of pins on all the ceramic pack locations. And looking at the x-ray images, although it's hard to tell, it sure looks to me like there are some definite 'pack-via to pack-via' traces.Or did you mean that the boards implement gates out of the components in the packs, and thegateinputs and outputs are brought to the edge connector? That would make more sense.It's also a very effective design security system. Someone walking off with a few boards would reveal almost nothing about the system design. To get that you'd need the backplane, and I gather that would have been quite a large and non-portable construction. Also uninformative on its own, without a bunch of the boards.On PFOAs, here are some references for anyone interested:http://everist.org/archives/links/!_PFOA_links.txtThe idea that teflon is inert and harmless, turns out to be absolutely not true.Personally since learning this I've added teflon coated saucepans to the same category as aluminium cookware: 'long term cumulative health risks, avoid if at all possible'.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2013, 01:30:08 am
content: are you sure it's teflon and not Kynar ? That is nasty stuff , especially when you are heating it when soldering ... (Polyvinylidene fluoride PVDF - Kynar as opposed to PTFE Polytetrafluoroethylene - teflon)it could be Molybdenum lubricated Teflon.... that is also nasty stuff.Teflon by itself is inert. they even make artificial arteries and other medical items for permananet implantation from pure PTFE. So yo most likely have something there that looks like PTFE and isn't (Kynar) or it is impregnated PTFE isolation containing Molybdenum ... in that case : get it out of the house ....

author: Frantone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2013, 02:23:41 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 08, 2013, 12:39:50 amYes, and in the video I stated before having the Xrays that it appeared that the individual gate (pin) connections were brought to the pin out on the board. The logic devices appear to be two types on my board, quad inverters or dual FF's - and a possibility for DTL NAND gates, but that info is in the description.Quote from: TerraHertz on January 08, 2013, 12:39:50 amJeez.... as if I was gonna live another 200 years. With all the dead people I know I can tell you life is a friggin crap shoot. You live if you're lucky, you die if you're unlucky. As for myself, I make stuff, and to do it serious you gotta get right into the danger zone. I wouldn't have it any other way.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2013, 02:25:07 am
content: Nah, I have Kynar wire (from wire-wrapping days, now just used for patches on pcbs) and know the difference. It's definitely teflon. But I didn't know about 'Molybdenum lubricated Teflon'. Do you know any way to determine if it's that?"Teflon by itself is inert."No it isn't. Widely held but untrue belief, successfully promulgated by the makers of teflon. I used to believe it too. Check those links I posted. There are both trace contaminants from manufacture, and heat/time breakdown products. For instance any knowledgeable bird breeder will be happy to enlighten you about teflon's so-called 'inertness'.Also... you should know better than to quote 'they make implants of it' as evidence it's safe. How many times hasthatturned out to be a disaster? Implant certification just means "in the brief, limited scope trials conducted by the entity hoping to make a lot of money from the product, no ill effects appeared that were too dramatic to be covered up."And that's also assuming no large scale global-population-reduction related Elite conspiracy to deliberately cause widespread deaths - as is clearly the case with FDA approval of Aspartame as a sweetener. To name but one example.Not likely a factor in this case, but still...Edit:Quote from: Frantone on January 08, 2013, 02:23:41 amAh well. I had a very good friend who had that approach to life. He died in 2004, age 34. Cancer, very likely cause his 'adventurous' approach to chemical synthesis and use of of interesting and unusual psychoactive substances. Also an enthusiastic rock climber, who I never climbed with again after the time he nearly killed both of us with that same live or die by luck attitude.For my part, there are things I want to do yet, that will take a while.

author: ecat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2013, 02:27:35 am
content: Quote from: Frantone on January 07, 2013, 09:27:09 pmI love looking at circuit boards, always have done. ty for the update.Quote from: TerraHertz on January 08, 2013, 12:39:50 amIt is also mass production friendly of course.Quote from: TerraHertz on January 08, 2013, 12:39:50 amOur friend the Pedia of Wiki has quite a lot to say on the subject of PFOAs:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluorooctanoic_acid

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2013, 03:27:00 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 08, 2013, 02:25:07 amI'm pretty sure that pure PTFE when left to its own devices is inert, on the basis that fluorine is the most strongly binding chemical element there is. Once it is bound up in a chemical compound, there is no way it is going to decompose or let go without a lot of force.So lack of purity and contaminants in the product is a possibility. Excess temperature and thermal decomposition is another possibility. But just leave pure PTFE setting there at room temperature, and it will be there unchanged to eternity. There is no way it will break down by itself.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2013, 04:49:56 am
content: pure PTFE does not contain PFOA.Anyway , life is a medical condition to which 100% of the patient finally succumb....If you really want to get spooked look up the dangers of DHMO .... that is hair raising.... and given the consumption rate of that stuff by humans it will be a massive disaster...As for the molybdenum lubricated wire : used in aircraft and military industry. has a permanent slippery/oily surface. don't know how you can test for it...

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2013, 11:29:40 am
content: I remember reading about that type of circuit design in a book from the late 60s with a name something like "Handbook of Microcircuit Packaging and Interconnects" or similar... can't remember it exactly as that was a looooooooooong time ago. That book also had a lot of information about the connectors that were common at the time.Anyone know/have/read this book?

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2013, 05:03:00 am
content: Quote from: IanB on January 08, 2013, 03:27:00 amHonestly, did you even google this?'breakdown of ptfe' - the very first result is:http://www.fluoridealert.org/pesticides/teflon.decomposition.prod.htmThermal Decomposition Products - Teflon (PTFE: polytetrafluoroethylene)Note that this stuff happens at fairly low temps. Food cooking type temperatures.Also it wouldn't hurt to read a few more of the articles on the first page. I'll repeat, teflon/PTFE is NOT the harmless wonder material we all thought it was. Sure fluorine forms strong bonds - but PTFE is a long chain molecule and there are plenty of non-fluorine bonds. Those break, creating assorted fluorine-containing molecules. The 'I'm certain this is harmless, so I'm not going to look up anything that might say otherwise' approach is unwise."The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the ILLUSION of knowledge."-- Daniel Boorstin"There is a principle, which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation."-- Herbert Spencer, 1820-1903I'm very interested to learn of the "molybdenum lubricated wire : used in aircraft and military industry. Has a permanent slippery/oily surface." Yep, that's where it came from, and describes it well. Now for some more research.But conflating this issue with the DHMO is pure silliness. So is "well we all die, so what's the point?" implication of the 'life is a medical condition' comment.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2013, 05:18:53 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 09, 2013, 05:03:00 amYour link has not told me anything I didn't already know.Item: PTFE thermally decomposes if you heat it up enoughItem: The decomposition products are fluorine compounds and tend to be really nasty and toxic substancesHowever, you have to heat it up way past normal cooking temperatures for this to happen. I have non-stick frying pans that are as virgin as the day they were purchased, in spite of being used to brown steaks on occasion.The very first sentence in your own link says that Teflon is "a physically inert tetrafluoroethylene resin". It is inert. There are numerous applications in the chemical industry that rely on PTFE being resistant to all sorts of extreme conditions that rely on this. In the electronics industry PTFE coated wire is used because it is resistant to soldering temperatures without melting or burning.I am not scared of the stuff and my tinfoil hat remains safely in the cupboard.

author: codeboy2k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2013, 07:22:56 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 09, 2013, 05:03:00 amI don't like my steaks cooked at 595C

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2013, 07:34:03 am
content: Quote from: codeboy2k on January 09, 2013, 07:22:56 amDitto, at ptfe breakdown temp, its call "charred" food processing.Actually you don't even need google for this thing, a wiki like this is more than enough ->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_point

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2013, 10:32:08 am
content: According to the link above PTFE starts pyrolysis at 200C but the real toxic stuff appears only at much higher temperatures. Unless you're a parrot I think you should worry more about the stuff from charred food and cooking itself (barbeque fumes also come to mind.)