Windows 10 Update Aggro - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2019, 12:23:10 am
content: I am battling the Windows 10 updates mechanism for my next workshop setup template.Already set to disable updates from automatically installing in Group Policy but that does nothing.Last week I was working on something and all of the sudden the screen went blank. Was it power failure? was the power button pressing against something under the desk? No it turned on with the screen that updates are installing. Can't tolerate that and I feel I have no control over my own stuff anymore if I let that nonsense go on. How dare they intrude and interfere like that with no warning. I was infuriated.I thought I disabled quite a few culprits responsible for re enabling it and turning it back on but they are more others services such as usocore.exe rempl and waas medic. They seem permission protected and in task scheduler with no way to to gain ownership on this particular installation. When I removed some of the unwanted services in the hive and they are recreated on startup. I thought I couldn't delete and take ownership and it might have something to do with GPT partition even when accessing the drive elsewhere but I found I could take ownership and delete on an MBR copy. I am looking at a MBR installation from an image that I just cloned months ago and put the key in which worked.For what I am going to use it for I just want to be left alone and want to install the updates I want manually.If I need something I'd go to that catalogue to download it.See pictures.Just now when I moved the modules out and took ownership of the task scheduler keys I found I can delete stuff out.I switched off the services to the apps (that I never use) and removed all the crap I know I am not going to need.I have a disc image just incase there are problems in future.No more "apps", silly insulting scaremongering alerts in a patronising terminology.No more interruptions or harassment.Just the way I want it like before where I can do what I want.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2019, 12:57:28 am
content: If you want control then it's time to consider an alternative to Windows. There are endless threads here complaining about Windows. It is what it is because the majority of Windows users like my family just don't think about it.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2019, 01:03:42 am
content: Yes, I know it will come to that.I know there are endless complaints elsewhere and I had to do a lot more looking into it but I found a solution for now to the above problems.Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on June 05, 2019, 08:41:45 amThat is something I am going to check out along with Linux Mint.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2019, 01:39:07 am
content: I use and recommend Linux Mint XFCE. I have a C2D CPU and wanted a lightweight window manager. No other reason over the fancier options. It is as good as any a place to start. But I say this to all who approach Linux. The two reasons to choose Linux is to learn about it and as a lifestyle choice. It is just another OS. Ignore the religious zealots, and don't change because you hate Windows. Linux isn't perfect either.I have a Linux PC under my fingers now and a Windows10 laptop next to it.#linuxisalifestylechoice #LinuxMint

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2019, 01:47:06 am
content: I'm still blocking with a router. It's been a good solution.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/windows-10-creators-update-1703/msg1321900/#msg1321900

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2019, 01:56:24 am
content: I suppose I could do that, which would have been so much more easier a couple of minutes of work, setup a block rule for that machine's IP to go with an alias (list), find out what it connects to for the Windows update and add them to that Alias.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2019, 06:02:58 pm
content: I found that Java, Google and Adobe all check for updates even when you tell them not to. Google will install updates even when you expressly tell it not to. My computer used to frequently and repeatedly lockup while checking for updates to a Java program that I never used and never wanted. I had to hunt down the update programs and delete the files to stop them from running. In some cases Windows complained about the missing files so I had to create a dummy file with one null byte in it. Adding the update sites to the hosts file helps block that unwanted updates too. But I've heard that win 10 ignores the Hosts file. I use an earlier version of Windows so I don't know. Despite what MS says, Windows users actually have very little control over what runs on their computers.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2019, 12:38:32 am
content: I have sorted that long ago.Adobe:Kill adobe.arm.exeDel C:\program files\common files\adobe\armThen search in registry "files\adobe\arm" to remove all keys pointing to that directory.Remove from task scheduler.Google:I just go somewhere in appdata/local/google and remove software reporter along with the program files installation and GUpdate? service in registry and remove that from task scheduler.Sometimes I get a little red symbol arrow over the colon menu that it is out of red and reinstall prompt by the side of it?I do have Java installed and set it so it doesn't update or run when I don't want it to.I won't have those things interfere with what I am trying to do and dominate me unless I decide I need it.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 02:36:32 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 09, 2019, 01:39:50 amInteresting to hear what others have to say.QuoteI already did that:Quote from: MrMobodies on June 06, 2019, 12:23:10 amQuoteOf course.QuoteFor the particular purpose I am going to use it for I can't have it shut down lets say when it is in the middle of disc imaging or anything like what happened that night. I am not going to use this template copy for going on the app store and playing games. Just for some specific tasks that I do daily.QuoteI took care of that problem already.Hasn't turned back on.QuoteNo way.You might do but I certainly won't.QuoteOn other installations maybe but not for the work I am doing it on.QuoteIn my home in my possession I am the dictator.If they don't like it they can come and sue me if they want.It is not like I am pirating stuff or guilty of copyright infringement.QuoteI pushed it out of the way for now so I can work in peace.They have already pushed it too far on those occasions that forced me to take action in the first place.Any other stuff I don't care but not my work machines.Anyway I can turn the PC Setting components back on and the Windows Updates if I wanted to or I can install them from the Microsoft Catalogue if there is something or a fix that I need.

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 01:17:25 pm
content: Why is everyone so hell bent on running pc's connected to the internet without updates?Is it such a chore to reboot your computer once or twice a week?I never had a problem with those so called random updates, never once has a computer rebooted on me for surprise updates.. On the other hand, I check at least once every 2 days if there are updates..

author: Quarlo Klobrigney
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 02:29:53 pm
content: O Senso, calma Senhor, calma..

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 04:11:59 pm
content: Quote from: senso on June 11, 2019, 01:17:25 pmI don't know about everyone... but for me and this particular purpose I am hellbent on it staying put for my convenience so I can work without interruption. I want it to stay put as I can't have a loose cannon when I am doing stuff and may require it on all time.QuoteThat's nice but I don't have the time or I am not always willing put the time in and taking risks for when something breaks after an update and have to spend time undoing it and the interruptions it may cause. I already spend enough time trying to install and find out why certain updates won't install on customers things as some seem to panic over it.The others that I may use for entertainment and general use I don't care what happens with the Windows update in fact I'll be observing for when things do go wrong so when customers bring their stuff in I might know what to look for if it is update related.Quote from: Quarlo Klobrigney on June 11, 2019, 02:29:53 pmYes you could say now I am satisfied and at peace because I know it is not going to do that again.

author: Quarlo Klobrigney
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 04:51:07 pm
content: I have seen many a person who has lost all due Winblows 10 and their pushing of updates, where a disk take ownership and subsequent copying of, or off, of personal data was necessary. I will never use or recommend the product.Firewalls are useful things.I agree. I am the sole dictator and commander in my home. All devices with electricity or fuel in them, must comply or face execution of my choice and method.

author: Ramsy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 09:51:49 am
content: Quote from: Quarlo Klobrigney on June 11, 2019, 04:51:07 pmThat's why I lost everything from Windows 10 PC.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 10:38:20 am
content: Who is the computing boss here? The PC owner paid up OS licensee, or MS beta testers trying to outdo/keep up with mountain fetish MAC beta testers ?With options of Win 7, 8, 8.1 and or Linux to choose from, do yourself a favor and go with those. What software that matters ONLY runs on Win 10?FWIW there are 'Win 10 only' hardware workarounds for newer gear to run 7, 8, 8.1 etcyou just have to do a bit of researchLet MS get "Win Does What It Wants" sorted in-house, not in your house,and release Win 12 with an updater menu with options to Manually Update, Auto Nuisance Update,Ask First, or NOT AT ALL, with a 'NEVER Ask Again AGAIN'tick box

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 12:23:04 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 06, 2019, 12:57:28 amThis!And this is professional advice I'm giving as a 20+ year "veteran" of Microsoft Windows. Short of disconnecting yourself from the Internet/Microsoft servers, there is no way that I'm aware of to completely to disable updates. This is why Windows 7 was the last version of Windows I'll use.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 01:40:03 pm
content: One day I will switch but not today I have stuff to do.it's five years I am repeating this in my head...M$ is irritating me constantly, but unfortunately I have a lot of patience.But one day I know it will happen:I would consider FreeBSD too, I read good stuff on it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 01:53:24 pm
content: As I said in another thread, we should not expect MS to change anything strategy-wise, probably at least for several years to come.Looking at the stock market, MS has experienced almost exponential growth since the release of Windows 8. So shareholders definitely trust MS and its current CEO, meaning they can't change a thing.I guess we unhappy customers are just a very small minority of users. Either that, or MS has found a business model that doesn't require customers' satisfaction. In the latter case, that may one day lead to a Nobel price or something.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 02:33:44 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on June 06, 2019, 01:03:42 amA few, very few, people have joined the Linux crowd that, at best, represents 2% of desktop users. How come, after 25 years in the field, Linux is a bit player?Well, it's because it is darn difficult to get set up, nothing you want is included with the distro, you spend more time at the command line than you ever imagined and, in the end, what do you have? An OS that nobody else uses. And if your hardware isn't supported by the built-in drivers (NVIDIA), life will get truly exciting. In fact, you will get to recompile the drivers every time the kernel is upgraded. Fun times!In my office, I have 3 machines running Linux Mint, 2 machines running 2.11BSD (similar to 4.3 which is what FreeBSD, NetBSD and the others are built on. I also have 4 machines with Win 10 and a left over All-In-One running Win 7. And I use them all!Without question, the Linux boxes are the most frustrating.For whatever reason, I don't have problems with Windows Update. It usually waits for me to approve the changes and, if the change is critical, it does it during off hours. I suppose different users have different experiences. Maybe they should change how Update schedules things.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 02:53:20 pm
content: Quote from: zucca on July 22, 2019, 01:40:03 pmI just installed this last week to match up with my 2.11BSD boxes - what an ugly process! Once I got it set up, I overwrote it with Mint. If I absolutely must have *nix, Mint is the way to go. I still wound up having to manually partition a 3TB drive and play around with /etc/fstab and fdisk but I eventually got it to work.I really don't want to have to know how to partition disk drives.For servers, OpenBSD is outstanding!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 03:16:05 pm
content: In my experience, Linux for the common user is good enough for internet browsing - that is what I am planning to do to my wife's computer when January comes. Hopefully I don't get much flak.As for mine, the major issue to migrate away from Windows is the video editing software and the occasional use of windows-only EDA packages. That and the multitude of incredibly useful tiny utilities I accumulated over the years on this platform. I foresee following joeqsmith's firewall footsteps in blocking spying and, just like the OP, inadvertent updates - to me the most irritating of all sins.Regarding stock price and MSFT's practices, the vast majority of people don't give a damn for that.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 04:06:53 pm
content: I was forced to use Win10 at work for a couple years and cursed it constantly. The lack of control is infuriating beyond belief and the hubris of the company and its apologists is arguably reaching Apple levels. Heck even the Mac I have at work has never interrupted what I'm doing to update. The behavior of a machine that does this is virtually indistinguishable from one that is infected.Anyone saying that Linux is difficult to set up or doesn't come with anything has not tried recent consumer aimed dustros. I set up my computer illiterate mom with Ubuntu a couple years ago and it has been smooth sailing. Libre Office and a browser are the only software she needs and that was all set up by default.The reason Linux has such a small user base on the desktop is that most people just buy a computer and use it with whatever comes installed on it. Also Windows has a HUGE legacy software library but with Microsoft doing their best to kill off legacy that will eliminate the primary reason for using Windows.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 04:16:27 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on July 22, 2019, 03:16:05 pmWell, yes and no... The default browser, when using the default search engine (whatever it is), is terrible. None of the replies I expect come up anywhere near the top of the list. It is absolutely useless.I installed Chromium and use Google as my search engine. Much better!Try it out and see what you think.Mint is a very Windows friendly desktop. Things tend to be where they are easily found, the task bar is easy to use but don't be surprised if you want to add a few 'extras'. Adding printers under Mint is a lot easier than on other distros. It will search your network and offer them up in a dialog. Just point and click and Mint will find and install the drivers. Very nice!I have used Red Hat, Fedora, Ubuntu and a couple of other distros (memory is fading fast) and I like Mint the best. You can try it with a Live CD but be prepared for GRIM load times. It sometimes sounds like the drive will come apart. There's a lot of searching going on!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 04:30:24 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 22, 2019, 04:06:53 pmI don't know what I'm doing right that others are doing wrong but this just isn't a problem I have experienced. Yes, a dialog pops up saying there is something to install but it gives the option for now or later. What it does overnight I simply don't care about but there's no guarantee that I'll leave it on overnight. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.My Active Hours are set to 8:00 to 5:00 but that is wrong. My active hours are 5:00 AM until midnight, give or take.Make sure that the Advanced Option to "Restart as soon as possible..." switch is turned off.The Advanced Option "Show a notification..." switch should be turned on.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 05:24:32 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 22, 2019, 04:16:27 pmThanks for the inputs.I am not sure which browser you refer, but Firefox comes standard on Ubuntu and its default search engine (Duck duck go, IIRC) is not bad. Bonus points for the absolute lack of tracking stats. However, as you mentioned it does not give the desired results as a regular Google or Bing would - this can be a problem for the regular user, although it is easily changeable.As for distros, I have experience with several of them and Mint is quite good and much more lightweight than its cousin Ubuntu. (I even have a version running on my old Atom 520 netbook). Libreoffice also does a good job in editing the occasional reasonably simple MS office document. These two distros are strong contenders for my wife's notebook, but there's a chance she will want to migrate to Windows 8.1.Personally I could navigate any distro without problem - I come from an era where Slackware was king. In my case, as my age progresses my patience regresses exponentially, especially with scripting and the occasional nonsensical configuration. Also, my past experiences with Wine were not good at all, but there is a strong change things changed. Again, if it takes way too much time to adjust and adapt every single existing application from Windows, I may leave a Windows 8.1 or 10 host just for these tasks.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 07:30:01 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on July 22, 2019, 05:24:32 pmOr dual boot... That's what I am doing on my more higher powered desktop. Mint and Win 10 Pro. 1 TB SSD + 1 TB of HDD for Win 10 plus 2 TB of HDD for Mint. Works well!I think you're right, Firefox is the default browser. I'm not sure what the default search engine is but it sucks. I only used it on ONE search before I installed Chromium. I'm getting old and I just want things to work like I think they should.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 08:40:21 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 22, 2019, 07:30:01 pmYes, dual boot. I am glad I don't have any of these new secure boot hosts or I would need to jump through hoops to get Linux going.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 10:59:59 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 22, 2019, 02:33:44 pmWhen was the last time you installed Linux? Almost none of this is true today. I installed the NVIDIA drivers from the NVIDIA website which worked flawlessly. You also have a selection of distros which comes packages with office applications etc... I have never had to re-compile a driver on all the machines I use Linux on.The Linux market share is steadily increasing and we have Windows 10 to thank for that.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 11:19:24 pm
content: Dual booting is so last century,run virtual boxes and you can swap between varies o/s's at the click of a mouse button

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 11:40:25 pm
content: I remember compiling kernels on Linux to get drivers for various hardware to work, and spending hours poking around in the console trying to accomplish basic things. That was more than a decade ago though and the last time I compiled a kernel was on a 486-66, must have been in the late 90s.These days Linux is actually fairly painless for typical uses, where Windows is still king is with gaming and certain high end productivity software like Photoshop and CAD/CAM packages. If you have software that requires Windows then you run Windows, that is the overwhelming reason to do so. That is the reason I've been mystified by Microsoft's attempts to deprecate the legacy desktop software because without that there is little reason to run their OS. Their "modern" app platform took off like a lead balloon and now without a serious mobile presence has no reason to exist.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2019, 01:22:38 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 22, 2019, 10:59:59 pmWell, within the last week I have installed Raspian several times, Mint twice and FreeBSD once. Far and away, FreeBSD is the worst of that bunch to install. Not that it was a big effort but I also configured 2.11BSD several times. Nothing major, just the network settings. I also installed Win 10 Pro and it's a breeze! Mint is pretty easy but it seems that everything I need I have to go and fetch. Is GCC in the distro? Fortran? I don't recall because if they aren't there I just add them and I don't keep a running 'bitch' list.One could make a good argument for NOT including GCC for email level users but, for me, the compiler tools are the ONLY reason I use Linux. I sure don't use it for the swell desktop (although, Mint is pretty nice). I actually use it for the command line. Kind of archaic, I suppose.As to percent of desktops, this is a year and a half old but shows Linux at 1.46% - less than 15 out of a thousand. I don't think Microsoft is worried. Different surveys, slightly different numbers, but I have never seen Linux as more than 2% of desktops.https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/linux-market-share/

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2019, 01:45:17 am
content: Now I remember...After the Mint install I ran 'sudo apt-get update' and 'sudo apt-get upgrade'. During the process, apt left some broken packages. First time this ever happened.Off to Google! If you use Linux, Google will be your best friend. None of the command line approaches would fix the problem but there is a selection in the desktop "Software Update" app that will repair the problems. Eventually... If you search far enough through the Google replies...I don't know what caused the failure but it took a while to find the resolution.Nvidia drivers are not installed by default. In fact, as they are 3rd party software, even their repository isn't included in the list of 'accepted' repositories. The builders are worried about corrupting the "open source" attributes of Linux. Gotta keep it pure! At all costs!If you search long enough, and your video card works in VGA mode, you will find a process like this:http://www.linuxandubuntu.com/home/how-to-install-latest-nvidia-drivers-in-linuxIt's kind of ugly for a newcomer but it's way ahead of recompiling I had to do with Red Hat Linux several years back.How in the world is a newcomer going to know about these problems? First of all, they shouldn't be problems. Just because Nvidia won't disclose their trade secrets and open their driver source is no reason for the Linux distros to make this so difficult.Mint has a great way to install printers. The older web browser approach was an upgrade over having to figure out /etc/printcap. Again, how should a newcomer know about this stuff? And it's not a given that every printer has open source drivers.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2019, 03:25:28 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 22, 2019, 09:31:05 pmAt a certain point in time there were several articles that covered the hurdles of having secure boot in a host. However, my information may be outdated, as articles liketheseapparently turn this process a lot simpler task.In my daily work (embedded), the secure boot is a royal pain to enable low level debugging on high security devices.Quote from: themadhippy on July 22, 2019, 11:19:24 pmI agree 100% that virtual boxes are nice, but have drawbacks with certain types of hardware - in my case, JTAG debuggers and logic analyzers.Quote from: rstofer on July 23, 2019, 01:22:38 amUser-oriented distros do not have a "developer install mode" like traditional distros such as RedHat, Suse or Slackware - you need to download everything.My biggest concern with this approach is long term support - if I need to re-create an older environment with legacy development tools, the basic installation CD (or ISO file) does not give me that and I will have to install every component separately. But I admit that is a corner case, and can be solved by the use of Virtual machines, if you don't need to access specific hardware.However, the pain of device drivers and changes caused by updates is real. When I upgraded Ubuntu on my Dell Latitude E6520 to 18.04, the Wi-Fi was inoperative and required some googling and mucking around with configurations. Latest updates to Ubuntu 18.04.2 messed up some serial comms devices. On a specific host I couldn't properly initialize my video when the third party Nvidia drivers were installed - I had to wait months until an update was released (at least the video worked with the standard drivers, but the performance was abysmal).No, nothing is different than Windows and its broken updates but, being much more mainstream, the fixes tend to happen a lot quicker.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2019, 12:39:57 pm
content: Don't even get me started on Linux versus WiFi. A few years ago it was nearly impossible to get things working and even then, only a few devices could even be configured. Today, you will see recommendations to use devices with specific internal chipsets. Like I know what's inside... But that's back to the open source driver problem. The devices being recommended don't tend to be the latest and greatest. I understand why Linux is years behind on hardware drivers and I also understand why manufacturers always provide a Windows driver. Windows isn't 'open source' so they don't have to disclose how their gadget actually works. It will always be an issue.Linux works, I use it all the time. I would even recommend it to the user who only wants email and web but only if they couldn't afford a copy of Win 10 Home. Super users will develop skills over time and it all works out fine for them as well. But the many casual command line users are going to have to step up because absolutely nothing is as easy as you would hope.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2019, 01:23:07 pm
content: The last 10 years I haven't encountered any major problem using WiFi with linux. There are a few chipsets which require an NDA and a proprietary binary blob to get them running, but it isn't hard to avoid those. I had some cases of proprietary code screwing up WiFi on SOHO routers and APs, e.g. uncommon lifetimes for keys and dropping the connection regularly. Replacing the vendor's firmware with OpenWrt (open source WiFi drivers) resolved the WiFi issues.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2019, 04:39:46 pm
content: Real life example of where Linux shines: I had an FPGA project that sent out plotter step codes over SPI at, I believe, 12 MHz. Great if you have a real plotter and I haven't had one in 30 years. So, I used an mbed (LPC1768) to grab the codes and stuff the data in a queue. The main program accumulated steps and ultimately converted the output to HPGL sentences that would be sent over TCP/IP to a LaserJet.It may surprise you to find that my code wasn't perfect on the first attempt and I needed a 'server' that looked, or at least connected, like a LaserJet. This is totally trivial with Berkeley Sockets and there is no better place to play with these than on Linux. So, the Linux box received the command strings and ultimately put them in a file for review. It took far less than an hour to create this 'server' code. It was a great diagnostic tool.The changes in the mbed code between sending the output to the real LaserJet or sending the code to my Linux server was just the destination IP address.If you want to play with magic, Linux is the place to do it.I have another example where I used uClinux on a Blackfin board to grab test vectors over NFS from a Linux box and shift them in and out of an FPGA project where I was recreating a PDP11/70 ALU. The Blackfin was total overkill but it had networking and that was critical. Today I would use an mbed but it wasn't available way back when.Although I am often critical of Linux and how unfriendly it can be, I use the heck out of it when I want to do magic. There really is no better sandbox to play in.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 10:52:24 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on July 22, 2019, 11:19:24 pmWhilst virtual boxes rockthe average impoverished computing adventurer can dual boot and or multi boot on a 15 year old PC clunkerlandfill escapeewith 1 or 2 gigs of ram, and get the job done

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 05:52:00 pm
content: I am running Linux Mint with an NVidia video card. It seems I was originally using a so-called "nouveau" driver. (I have no idea what that means.)Then I upgraded Google Earth and GE stopped working right. After much investigating I was told I needed to install the NVidia driver and drop the nouveau. It was an ordeal because I would restart the computer and get a blank screen. Nothing. And I would panic and believe I would have to reinstall Linux. Finally, after much suffering, I got the NVidia driver and Google Earth to work. Ok. Good.Then I upgraded Teamviewer and it stopped working. I have spent months trying this and that to no avail. TeamViewer is not helpful. They don't care. They don't have to.I have asked in several forums without luck.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-computing/teamviewer-v14-is-messed-up/Now it seems the new TeamViewer might conflict with the Nvidia driver and I am told to change driver ... or something. I don't understand the issue very well.I tried reverting to the nouveau driver to see if that fixed the issue but I went again through the ordeal of starting the computer and seeing nothing on the screen and believing I would have to reinstall Linux.For now I am playing it safe and not touching anything.Say what you want about Linux but user-friendly it ain't.Maybe someone can lend me a hand in my thread about this issue.

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 06:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on July 25, 2019, 05:52:00 pmWell there's your problem. Just as a general rule, AMD and Intel graphics just work better than Nvidia, ARM, or other GPUs using reverse-engineered or closed-source drivers.QuoteNouveau is an open-source driver for Nvidia GPUs. Since Nvidia don't publish any documentation for their devices, it is largely developed by reverse-engineering their closed-source drivers. I think it's a minor miracle it works at all, but I've never had much luck with it beyond basic 2D desktop usage.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 08:29:20 pm
content: That's the point of my rant! I bought a high end machine (at the time) including pre-installed Red Hat Linux Workstation. Dell had made the drivers work and NVIDIA seemed like the highest performing card I could buy at the time. How was I to know? I could hardly spell Linux much less compile drivers. It never occurred to me, as a Windows user, that drivers would become a living nightmare!It doesn't help that the drivers needed to be compiled against the particular kernel and, at that time, the kernel was getting updated often. Like almost weekly. It finally occurred to me to blow off the updates. If what I had was working, I didn't need to worry about the boundary issues that were being fixed.Today there is a similar problem in that most distros don't acknowledge the existence of 3rd party repositories. Gotta keep the system 'pure'! Once you don't have graphics, you can wander all over Google until you find a fix. Assuming you don't need your NVIDIA video card to do anything special (or at all) during the fix (if one exists).WiFi was another nightmare for a few years. It seems pretty well cleaned up except: There are still WiFi dongles, current products, that aren't supported and never will be. So, it pays to search around on Google for recommendations of dongles that are known to work. Of course, you will discover this right after you find out that the dongle you just bought isn't supported.Those are a couple of reasons that Linux will never be mainstream. That doesn't keep me from using it, I use it all the time, but it kind of gives me a license to bitch about 3rd party issues. True, most of the responsibility lies with the device manufacturers but that isn't a satisfying answer when I can just plug the device into a Win 10 machine and it will fetch and install the drivers with no effort on my part.But if you want to do magic, Linux is the best game in town.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 12:30:52 am
content: You can have all those same problems with Windows though, the difference is you probably have a lot more accumulated knowledge that helps fix and prevent Windows problems. Just look at all the people who have had machines bricked by Windows updates. On one that I dealt with a couple of programs were silently uninstalled due to "compatibility problems" but they worked fine when I reinstalled them.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 12:36:09 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 25, 2019, 08:29:20 pmExcept when it doesn't. Sure, popular hardware is fine, but I've come across the same driver issues in Windows 10 involving all sorts of trickery to get the damn device working, including rebooting, disabling signed drivers etc... etc... If you want a completely plug and play experience that works within it's own limited ecosystem, buy Apple products. You can't blame Linux (or any other OS manufacturer) for lack of support for third party hardware.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 10:56:32 pm
content: Macs can be Plug n PRAY too, and good luck getting those white (or chromed) elephants back on track when things break with silly Mac-hiccupdatesand or 'issues' on the inferior logic boards they use (aka motherboards)corporat 'techniques' one may suspectto keep pulling in the wood ducks to buy new money pits with shiny shells.Apple apologists that trade up every 6/12 months, and have good Time Machine use and verification habits, may have a different take on that..----------------------------@ soldar: Out of habit I test a Linux distro first by using a bootable Live CD or DVD,or a 'Live' USB stick (if it installs on the usb without too much effort)and after a few test sessions, restarts and verfying everything works, I'll install it..fingers crossedfwiw it's a bit slow going uising the Live DVD, but still beats the install dramas you describe,and if it goes belly up/black screen/Matrix',',','shut down the computer, reboot, remove the DVD,and move on to the next distro and or look for solutionsThere's probably ways to fix a broken or ailing Linux install using a Live DVD to add/remove stuff,but I'm not an overpaid bored IT guy with spare time to work it out and post here.I reckon a bit of surfing in the Linux forums will bring up a few overpaid bored IT people that have worked it out (earning genuine guru status) and deserve praise for sharing

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2019, 01:15:43 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 26, 2019, 12:36:09 amRebooting to reload code that is already in core seems reasonable. It doesn't happen all that often. And why wouldn't you have to manually approve unsigned drivers. The code is so flaky the writer doesn't want anything to do with signing it but you're going to trust it? I realize you have no choice as does Microsoft. They just want everybody to realize the code is probably crap.To be fair, I sometimes have to install unsigned drivers. No big deal, just click the OK button (or whatever) and it happens.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2019, 02:27:59 am
content: Rebooting is one thing, no problems with that. Same as installing unsigned drivers, but to faff around with drivers and "trick" them into working is an entirely different thing.The point I was making was, I've never had to compile drivers under Linux and the NVIDIA drivers just work. But I have had to dick around in Windows. Such is the nature of both operating systems.(Also I had to change your post back, I accidentally clicked "Modify" instead of "Quote" (both are next to each other).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2019, 05:05:54 am
content: Signed drivers have nothing to do with how flakey the code is. The signing is like any other kind of certification, it's expensive and time consuming, you pay a big fee, fill out a bunch of paperwork and it gets run through a largely automated test process. It's no surprise some smaller companies don't bother.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2019, 02:19:02 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 27, 2019, 05:05:54 amAbsolutely! Microsoft is simply making a point that the code is unsigned. What you do with that information is up to you. I load the drivers anyway as long as they are from a reputable company.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2019, 02:44:07 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 26, 2019, 12:36:09 amWell, the key word islimited...Nor can you blame manufacturers for not wanting to disclose their IP to the world. It's a balancing act. How to provide drivers to a moving target (not as bad as it used to be) without disclosing IP? Source is out of the question, libraries would work if the interface was stable (but it wasn't, I don't know how it stands today) but the community doesn't like blobs and around it goes.Linux will never use the latest and greatest peripherals simply due to the time lag of reverse engineering the drivers. Maybe it doesn't matter.Open source, in many ways, is a PITA. In concept it sounds terrific but, in practice, there are problems. The multiplicity of licenses doesn't help the situation.If you take the fictional XYZ video card, fastest and bestest card on the planet, it still would make no sense to write drivers for Linux. At best Linux is 2% of desktops and XYZ couldn't possibly hope to be installed on 1% of them. So, 1% of 2% (0.02%) of desktops (and probably only new desktops which further limits penetration) just isn't a big enough market to bother with. What with the IP and licensing issues, it would be a costly venture. Unless a single driver covered a family of products like NVIDIA - and even their coverage is spotty.

author: Jan Audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2019, 03:30:38 pm
content: How can you brick a PC with windows 10 updates ?Was you so mad you throw the thing out the real window ?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2019, 04:32:20 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 27, 2019, 05:05:54 amYeah, the certification entails passing a number of automated tests, some of which are tests evaluating the robustness of the driver in a limited number of cases (such as surprise removal). It's certainly better than nothing. The signing itself reasonably ensures that the driver is genuine and not a fake one. Signing is a rather good thing per se. Code signing and WHQL certification are two different things, although a certified driver MUST have a signature.For a company that does things right, it adds no value other than marketing though (which is something!), as the same automated testing is available for free to developers.Not all companies do things right though and can be trusted with uncertified drivers...

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2019, 04:37:11 pm
content: Quote from: Jan Audio on July 27, 2019, 03:30:38 pmAhah, yeah. You'd have to figure out what was meant exactly by "bricked".If that means that Windows can't start properly anymore after some updates, yes it has apparently happened to some people. Not what I would call "bricked" though, but whatever. Those people will just have a computer that is at least momentarily unusable to them.Now if that means the computer can't even POST anymore (which is what I would call bricked), I seriously doubt that. Unless there was a serious heat management issue and some components fried (which could have then happened with any resource-intensive program), or the BIOS got spuriously reflashed (I doubt that as well, MS is not yet THAT sneaky!)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2019, 04:42:58 pm
content: Quote from: Jan Audio on July 27, 2019, 03:30:38 pmhttps://www.pcgamer.com/a-windows-10-bug-is-bricking-some-pcs-that-use-system-restore/https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/latest-update-bricked-my-pc-cant-revert-or-fix/63b9fa68-496a-4e6e-91a6-927043bf27e9https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/new-pc-bricked-by-windows-10-update-again-2nd-time/3e47da02-53b2-4a78-93a5-70ce58d070a0https://www.techtimes.com/articles/227922/20180520/microsofts-latest-windows-10-update-bricks-some-pcs-how-to-roll-back-to-previous-version.htmThere are many dozens of similar threads and articles.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2019, 04:47:05 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 27, 2019, 04:37:11 pmThere is no difference whatsoever to the average consumer. If a normal person's computer is not fully functional it is "broken" and they are in a bind. Huge numbers of perfectly good computers get binned due to simple software problems that could be resolved by just reinstalling the OS. Most people do not have the skills or knowledge to do this though, if it doesn't work they have no idea how to fix it so the option is either pay somebody to fix it for them or just buy a new one. A PC that won't boot to a usable state is effectively bricked.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2019, 05:13:43 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 27, 2019, 04:47:05 pmAnecdotal story: A neighbour asked me to retrieve old photographs from three of her old computers, in exchange for me keeping the machines (two Pentium 4 and one Quad Core Q6600). When I asked why the computers were replaced, the answer was always the same: the computers were becoming "too old" to be usable for the regular internet browsing and occasional Word editing - all HDDs were filled a third of their full capacity, but their OSes were terribly slow due to numerous crap software. Long story short, the Quad Core is being used 24/7 in perfect capacity - as for the other two... Well, one was beyond economical repair (the processor was removed and all its pins are bent) and the other still works but is not terribly useful for me.This happens way too often around me...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2019, 06:08:45 pm
content: I've lost count of the number of PCs I've been given or offered, most of which had nothing wrong with the hardware. Numerous times I've wiped and reinstalled one for somebody who was on the verge of going out and buying a new one and they were amazed by the fact that it worked like new. It sounds silly to those of us who understand these things but most people think that computers physically wear out and become slow and unreliable like a car or other mechanical device, they barely understand the difference between hardware and software and to them a computer is just a mysterious box, if it isn't working right it's broken and they have no idea what to do.I struggle to help my mother with her computer, she's very intelligent by most measures but she just doesn't "get it" when it comes to computers. I've tried and tried to explain it but she doesn't seem to grasp the difference between the internet and the web browser, or the GUI, the command line and her actual files. I remember I was fixing something a while back and she was completely confused as to why her files were showing up in the directory listing in the terminal window I was using when they were in the graphical folder on the desktop. People who grew up without computers and are not technical just don't understand what is going on inside them at all and if it isn't working due to a software issue that is indistinguishable from a hardware fault. Just like when their TV breaks, it is often assumed that it is going to be cheaper/better to throw it away and buy a new one than to hire somebody to repair it.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2019, 11:05:36 pm
content: QuoteFor a significant update, my laptops will be unusable ("Installing") or nearly unusable ("Checking for Updates", "Downloading" - which somehow seem to take 99% of a CPU and/or disk bandwidth) for SEVERAL HOURS.That's partly because I inherit various old laptops that are a bit iffy. The daughter's old machine with the cracked touchscreen, the one sent to me from Afghanistan because one of the USB ports is completely trashed (in addition to being old.) None of them were "high powered" when they started. They get used as dedicated "burner" machines for specific tasks, like going to some "bring your own laptop" training class - "Where's the one with TI's IDE on it?" They don't even get turned on "every week." I need to remember to turn them on and let them upgrade something like 24hours before I actually need them, to get some upgrade (sometimes several upgrades) that is ... irrelevant.So yes, it's a chore.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 10:59:19 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on July 26, 2019, 10:56:32 pmIt seems you missed the big picture. I had been running Linux Mint for almost three years with no problem.Then Google Earth updated and would not work with the Linux video driver so, after much time wasted diagnosing the problem I resolved it by changing to the Nvidia driver.Then, after a couple months, I updated TeamViewer and it stopped working. It has taken months of investigation to determine the problem lies with the video driver. I have spent countless hours trying to fix things and have increased my knowledge but made things worse with the computer. I am exhausted with this and dedicate a few hours here and there but, as I say, made things worse. Now one of the video adapters doesn't show up in the BIOS which should not be affected at all by the OS. I hate that it that they push out the door insufficiently tested "upgrades" that are full of bugs and problems. I have presented the case in the TeamViewer forums but nobody seems to care. They may fix it in the next release... or they may not. More than likely new bugs will be introduced.What I am being told is the NVIDIA, GeForce GT 730 video card does not play well with Linux. So NVidia, Teamviewer, Google Earth do not play well together or with Linux.Sometimes I think the best solution to these things is to use explosives.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 11:20:39 am
content: And more fun with updates: KB4505903 (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-information/status-windows-10-1903):QuoteBTW. look out for updated Intel RST drivers!

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 11:29:20 am
content: Yesterday I was called to an architecture firm. All of their computer (except one) was unable to boot after an obligatory update install and reboot. The firm was using the same computers for every seat. They went full panic when (third party) tech support told them, the only solution is to reinstall windows.Alexander.

author: Jan Audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 01:13:36 pm
content: Aside from the increased system requirements,if you can put a new hard-disk in the computer, it is still working and not bricked.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 02:14:45 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on July 28, 2019, 10:59:19 amUltimately, you will ditch the Nvidia card. I don't use my original Linux machine for much of anything so I have left the Nvidia card installed. I'm pretty sure the box has Debian but it has been a couple of years since I played with it.For Linux, you need to stick to hardware that is known to work with drivers supplied with the OS. If the video card takes 3rd party drivers, you may have issues as the OS changes.

author: HighPrecision
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 03:40:53 pm
content: Three months ago I was shocked by the first contact with Win10 on a tablet PC, I'm still using win7 on main PC, forced update was started keeping the PC unusable for over three hours with some problems to be resolved at reboot.I don't accept that enforcement, after some research I've found a comment into a web article and tried the procedure, see the tenth comment by 'K Mac':https://www.redmondpie.com/disable-turn-off-automatic-updates-in-windows-10-heres-how/comment-page-2/Apparently I don't see any automatic update event after this procedure, but have noticed that win10 OEM Home version has recreated one of the files (wuauclt.exe), I've removed this file and created a new folder with the same name and extension to avoid the automatic system restore.Since these modifications I haven't see any update activity, I'm still monitoring.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 03:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: Jan Audio on July 28, 2019, 01:13:36 pmBut most people can't put a new hard disk in their computer, they have no idea what the problem is, so from their perspective it is bricked. If the computer cannot boot itself up into a functional usable state without swapping or replacing any hardware then it is bricked.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 04:05:35 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 27, 2019, 04:47:05 pmOh, I agree. That's why I said "Those people will just have a computer that is at least momentarily unusable to them."I was just detailing things a bit to reply to all those that would react in a WTF? way when reading "bricked".Losing data, which has also plagued an infamous Win10 update (don't remember which), was also pretty bad especially for all the users that were not computer-savvy.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 01:15:04 am
content: I just went through a major office upgrade from WinXP! Due to the need for specific Windows-only software that works on XP I was stuck in that environment for far too long. However it worked quickly and efficiently. However, to mitigate the vulnerable state we were in and plan to migrate to the latest version of our proprietary company software (which the newest version also runs on Win10) I decided first to do an upgrade of the OS while keeping to their old WinXP-era software running until such time as I then roll in their latest software. The plan being that once we are up and running the old WinXP software on the Win10 updated machines we will eventually move to the proprietary Win10-version of the company software in due time.I burned Win10 64 bit and Win10 32 bit to 2 USB keys. All my machines are close to 10 years old but they all took 64 bit no problem. However I had to put 32 bit Win10 on a couple of machines that interfaced to a couple of legacy imaging-hardware devices that only had 32 bit drivers and I am not planning on shelling out $10k to replace the imaging hardware. Also the companies that make those imaging devices went bye-bye and never updated the drivers so we are stuck with whatever was working back in WinXP days.At home and pretty much everywhere else in my life I'm using Ubuntu Studio or some variant. It's one of the easiest to install but I agree most people just stare at you with a blank expression when you even mention anything beyond pressing the On button and loading up Google or Microsoft office. They have no clue. I too have received numerous laptops and PC's that needed nothing more than wiping out the old OS and putting new some light variant of Linux (Xfce or LXDE/LXQT desktop) and it breathed new life into it. A few machines just got a 128 GB SSD for $20 and now they fly like the wind!Again I think we take for granted that people know as much as we do. Most people couldn't even make a bootable USB from an ISO if their life depended on it... so they don't even know how to even get Linux on their computer even to try. They wouldn't know how to get into BIOS settings and even change the boot to let them load up the USB stick. And today laptops make it hard to boot off anything other than Windows so you need to really be persistent in that BIOS to make things stick. Anyways, for those that know how to do this stuff it's awesome!!! But I'd say the VAST majority of computer users just buy a computer and want Windows on it and if something happens to it they are lost! It's not because Windows is so much superior... it's because it's there from the time they get their computer and it just manages itself in the background with updates and such and tries not to cause the average user too much grief.It's also easier for most people just to shell out money and keep doing what they are used to than trying something new and the learning curve involved. For example, I've had no issues living with LibreOffice and many other open-source and cross-platform (including Linux) productivity software but most people wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. A friend of mine today with a new Win10 machine and Office pre-installed on it asked me today for help because Office keeps nagging him to purchase it to use it. I put LibreOffice on there and hope they will not be too lost until they figure it out... or they may just bite the bullet and purchase Office subscriptions for eternity.These days I'm not so engrained in one camp or the other, as it all depends on your use case. Bottom line is you better know as much as you can about whatever you use to take full advantage and be able to fix things when they go wrong.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 03:01:23 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 28, 2019, 04:05:35 pmI personally know two people who installed updates within the last 6-12 months who have had data deleted/programs removed silently.Apparently it'shappening again.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 08:34:50 am
content: It's nice to see a good mixture of opinions here.My experiences supporting Linux and Windows for family and work have taught me that all modern operating system environments are universally lacklustre in terms of reliability, predictability and general quality.I put Linux on my niece's laptop a while back. Initially it was great and I loaded her up with a lot of games, but soon she discovered that she really wanted to play Roblox (that's where her friends were). Apparently Roblox used to work on Linux via Wine, but recent anti-cheat additions to the game now prevented this. Additionally a pile of other desktop bugs started to slowly rear their heads like undead moose rising from mudplains, so we decided it was time for change.So on went Win10. Things seemed OK once the initial horrible-update-spiral ended. At least for a few months. Now the thing can't access SMB shares and certain programs flat out refuse to run on certain user accounts with random and vague error messages. "What do you mean you can't find that DLL? It's in the same folder as the exe, and it works when extracted and run as a different user!".At work I have a slow battle with Ubuntu and systemd. I'm an assistant at my uni, helping thesis students, PHDs and other researchers with their networking projects. The constant changes and feature-creep in the RedHattiverse (read: most popular distros including Ubuntu) mean that new and exciting things break every month or so. Systems no longer boot under certain conditions (no network on the second interface? hang boot for 10 minutes!), DNS taking magic new paths (everyone now has a local DNS server!) and so forth.It has been really sad to see the general quality of Windows updates declines over the past few years. Things were much better in the days before MS fired their update testing teams. It's also really sad to see how complex many modern Linux distros are. Things were much better in the days before constantly-changing software was considered a 'good' thing. I really wish we were in an era where people and business cared more about software testing and quality than changing appearances and activity.

author: Jan Audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 01:43:02 pm
content: Next windows maybe charge you per month for update, sevice model.Then u got rid off all updates in 1 time : dont pay the monthly update fee.Would you pay for this crap ?I wonder if that gets rid of telemetry and sedlauncher also.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 03:11:42 pm
content: Quote from: Whales on July 29, 2019, 08:34:50 amPretty much for giggles, I built a couple of the PiDP11/70 emulators. But not necessarily for giggles...One thing the system supports on 2.11BSD is Berkeley Sockets and I can control the world if I just had enough sockets. There's a certain comfort in dealing with a system that doesn't have a GUI, has VI as an editor and supports C, Fortran and Pascal. You can wrap your head around much of the system and there are some good books that describe the rest.Recognizing that 2.11BSD is nearly identical to 4.3BSD and that 4.3 is the basis for FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, etc., this is a very nice place to play (and learn).No, it doesn't have ANY of the modern features but it also isn't getting updated every couple of days. Most of the source was last touched in the early '90s.Back to Windows 10: I don't seem to have the problems that others have with updates. I did have some issue with release 1903 but I backed it out for a few months and when it reinstalled everything went fine. I think I got an early release that wasn't intended for wide distribution. Maybe a Developer's edition? There a selection switch that deals with this and I probably messed up the setting.It is usually possible to back out the various updates and also mark them to never reinstall. That's why there are Restore Points.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 04:03:43 pm
content: Quote from: Whales on July 29, 2019, 08:34:50 amFrom what I remember, the constant updating had became part of the computing culture with the advent and quick spread of viruses. In DOS days, the piece of software that required constant updates was the antivirus - the OS was not touched at all (especially because everything ran in real-time mode). With the advent of internet, viruses and trojans started to spread quite quickly and therefore brought to light the various holes in Windows versions since '95, which had to be plugged much more constantly. Nowadays, the Windows Defender on my Windows 7 host is updated daily.Quote from: Whales on July 29, 2019, 08:34:50 amI kid you not; one of the main features of a minor update to a macOS version (IIRC it was High Sierra) was "added many new fun and diverse emojis". In the same update there were just two more featured additions (just to illustrate the level of importance of such thing).I agree the current state of affairs is really sad. Lately I have been busy with a specific task of running Windows 3.11-era software - it just works.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 05:06:20 pm
content: The frequent update thing is a result of the proliferation of high speed always-on internet access, ignoring the fact that there are a few million people out there still relying on dialup. The culture became ship it now because we can just fix it later, the problem being later rolls around and new features have gone in, new bugs have been introduced and many of the old ones still have not been fixed.The visual changes and adding trivial gimmicks happens in products that are already mature. I mean office productivity software and desktop environments were mature 20 years ago, what more can we keep adding that is truly useful? People aren't going to pay for a new version that is the same with bug fixes that they perceive as something they should have gotten for free. It irritates me to no end but the explanation of why things are the way they are is simple enough.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 05:11:08 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 29, 2019, 05:06:20 pmUgly flat stuff everywhere making it hard to figure out what is clickable and what isn't? Replacing menus with horrendous ribbon bars full of abstruse icons?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 06:00:18 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 29, 2019, 05:11:08 pmOr an Android 9.0 Pie update that makes all icons look like a Step2 toy?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 06:39:21 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on July 29, 2019, 04:03:43 pmI wouldn't know for sure but I'll bet that MSDOS was less than 10,000 lines of code. Probably much less since it was derived from CP/M and that OS ran in a fairly small footprint in a 64k memory. If this were written in C (and is wasn't), I wouldn't expect it to take more than a month or so because the interface and specifications are very well understood. You could pretty much copy the CP/M documentation in terms of required functions and their interface.Windows 10 has about 50,000,000 lines of code. There is no way any individual can wrap their head around that much code. And once you add people, you add confusion. There are probably over 1,000,000 comments, most of which are out of date if they were ever correct in the first place. Better to not have comments than to have erroneous comments. I'm surprised the system works as well as it does considering the hundreds of programmers who have touched the code.Remember: If builders built buildings like programmers write code, the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization!

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 08:03:19 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 29, 2019, 06:39:21 pmIf I were to install Windows 10, it's only a tiny tiny fraction of it I would be using. Most of it woldn't be used at all. And some of it would work against me.Why not to have a lightweight OS with only abstracts hardware and let people install all other stuff as they please?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 12:43:00 am
content: You can get very stripped distros of Linux. OpenBSD and FreeBSD come to mind. There are others, Google for light weight Linux

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 03:01:30 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 29, 2019, 06:39:21 pmThe increase in complexity was followed by the increase in SW dev management tools that help the work across dev teams and the immense increase in computing power to allow validation and testing of various components. Obviously the software complexity is still winning the race, but I can imagine from my own experience with other SW programs that there's a high probability a lot of mismanagement is taking place there.Despite all this, a great deal of current problems is in third party software and other non-core services. The OS kernel is probably somewhat stable and goes through modifications to cater new cores and platforms.Regarding Linux, if you need bare minimum you can get by with Slackware or Arch Linux - they would be painful to setup, though.