Looking for PCB bench drill - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Davy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 12:07:04 pm
content: Hi all,Rather than revive a old thread, I'll start a new one.I'm looking for a PCB bench drill, Proxon TBH220 seems to be ideal.... yet RS Components do a similar item but far dearer, here is the data sheet from Xenonhttp://www.xenox.com/pdf/68128_EN.pdf, hopefully we've seen the Proxon 220 so no need to post.I've seen the video that Fran uses herehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/proxxon-bench-drill-tbm-220/.No prizes for guessing, they are all similar hence my confusion.... so who makes what? 'Stand up the real bench drill'. It may well sound stupid but I'm now leaning towards the RS Xenon drill, simply because I have an account with them, this is dearest of the lot.I'd like to buy the real thing rather than a copy, they are all the same specs. but are they all the same build quality? Whichever I decide I'll be getting the matching chuck rather than using collets.Edit:The Xenon that RS do give a 3 year warranty.Dave

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 12:25:08 pm
content: Quote from: Davy on August 02, 2018, 12:07:04 pmIf you are drilling PCBs, why would you do that? The chuck is never going to be as accurate as a collet, and when you are spinning carbide at high speed you want to be as accurate as you can get.I have the TBM220. I struggle to drill 0.2mm holes with it and have broken a few bits. It really needs to be a lot faster and vibrate less. Not that it vibrates a lot, but a 0.2mm bit is pretty sensitive. Over 0.2mm I've never had an issue. It is a superb machine to use.

author: Davy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 12:50:06 pm
content: A chuck would allow me to use bigger drills, the minimum hole size used would be 0.6mm, I normally use 0.8 mm most of the time, not forgetting larger ones. I was thinking a chuck would save time fiddling with collets.... I do see your point about accuracy.Just had a look at Xenon website and they do dentist drills max speed of 50,000 RPM, I noted Proxon uses TBH in the model while Xenon uses TBX.... better quality perhaps?Dave

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 01:13:27 pm
content: Quote from: Davy on August 02, 2018, 12:50:06 pmCarbide PCB drills come with standard sized shank so one collet fits them all from 0,2mm to 5mmShank is either 1/8" or 3mm diameter, 1/8" collet suits both of them.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 01:50:40 pm
content: I use 0.8, 1 & 1.2 almost exclusively. The 0.2 is for vias under SMD chips on home made boards (so no plate through) and I use 0.18mm wire. I lace it through all the vias in one strand, solder them down and then trim to the annular ring with a razor blade. Makes for very flat vias. They are a bugger to drill though.And, what mzzj said. I've only changed collets once and that was to use a router bit (the tbm220 isn't built for lateral loads on the quill, but if used gently in soft material it seems to cope).My neighbor borrowed mine and loved it so much he bought one. He has the chuck too, but he uses it for removing broken head studs in mining equipment with all sorts of differently sized tools.It is important to remember to pop the belt off if you're not going to use it for a while. It does develop a "set" and can run a bit rough until it flexes back in.

author: Davy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 01:51:50 pm
content: With all due respects, I was asking about the actual drilling machines.To get back on track, Fran uses a looking similar machine, I come across a Xenon machine at RS and they look like a Proxon barring colour and cosmetic, the Xenon is far dearer and Xenon makes dentistry drills capable of 50,000 RPM.... would this suggest a better quality machine and has anyone heard of them?Dave

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 02:26:19 pm
content: I can also recommend the Proxxon. At the other end of the scale it seems quite capable of drilling 6mm holes in mild steel.

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 06:47:14 pm
content: I have a proxxon and its decent but like you said with the tiniest drill bits you need to be real careful or they break. I noticed a big thing is to slowly insert and remove the drill, dont like let the arm swing out when you are removing it, there seems to be some kind of significant time constant, maybe the friction is increased because there is glass material on the drill bit, so you have to remove slower then inserting. I think as you drill through it stress lines in the materials change and it puts stress on the drill.. if its spinning ultra fast then you get a kinda lap occurring during the drill process so the material is detached and the hole surface is improved... so you need to account for it by moving the thing really slow. I think the smaller the hole the more the plasticity of the material begins to effect it. but this is just out of my ass conjecture I made up after destroying like 10 drillbits...Also you need to make sure the object is really flat that you are drilling, with tiny drill bits and objects that are kinda lopsided I recommend putting a folded paper towel under the object to dampen its vibration.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 07:03:39 pm
content: IMHO, Servo is the best (http://www.servoproductsco.com/html/drill_presses.html). Maybe out of your budget, but a used one may not be.Again, Proxxon (made in China), MicroMark, and Dremel will not hold the run-out to a reasonable value. I actually use a much larger, but tighter spec. drill press made in Japan (circa 1975) retrofitted with a VFD and 3-phase motor. Small carbide drills will not take much misalignment. They also need an appropriate cutting speed. While Proxxon the others that are similar provide the speed, they may fail in run-out.When you break a carbide bit part way through a hole on a 1/16" PCB, and can't see where to punch it out, you will wish you had paid more.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 07:07:54 pm
content: I have the Proxxon and it's fine for what I do. Amazon UK sells both the Proxxon and the Xenox. The Xenox is considerably cheaper, maybe they are the OEM and it's actually the same identical machine. Maybe it's a low quality knockoff. Hard to say either way.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 07:09:20 pm
content: I am using the Proxxon Micromot 230/E in the MB 140/S stand. It is not as sturdy as the TBM 220 but plenty good for 0.8mm bits and it has the added advantage that you can use it as a regular handheld rotary tool (aka "Dremel") too.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 07:15:12 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on August 02, 2018, 07:03:39 pmProxxon is German made, at least their electric tools. The hand tools are apparently from Taiwan (where Proxxon has HQ). As far as runout is concerned, the Proxxon gear is plenty good for drilling boards.I wouldn't compare it to Dremel, there are videos on Youtube showing almost an order of magnitude difference. The spindle has large runout and their wobbly plasticky drill stands are utter garbage.BTW, Xenox is a "pro" (mostly dentist oriented) line of Proxxon.http://www.xenox.com/html/imprint.php?lang=1

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 07:22:23 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on August 02, 2018, 07:15:12 pmMy Proxxon cutoff saw is made in China. Does being made in Germany (more accurately claimed to be made in Germany) make the specifications any better? About 10 years ago, I returned a Proxxon drill press as junk. Lots of nice chrome, but really poor run-out. The Proxxon distributor in the US at that time was in North Carolina. Maybe Proxxon has addressed those problems, but run-out is still the question. What is the current run-out spec for the Proxxon bench model? Have you tested it?

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 07:34:39 pm
content: I have this small drill press from a US based jewellery supply place.https://www.riogrande.com/product/variable-speed-mini-drill-press/330012It's not great, and the belts are crap (buy some spares), but it was really inexpensive, and it works fine down to about 0.6mm. Anything smaller and it just doesn't spin fast enough.I know you're in Europe, but it looks like you can get a 230V version on AliExpresshttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/340W-Mini-DIY-Drill-Press-Bench-220V-Rotary-Tools-16000rpm-High-Speed-22mm-Stroke-Clamping-0/32835208410.htmlLike I said, I wouldn't put my faith in it for 8hr/day work, but it's more than fine for hobby work

author: Davy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 08:19:16 pm
content: @janocI nearly got a Dremal stand but had read bad reports, Servo products look interesting I'll have a good look, thanks for link, our voltage here is 240 AC at 50Hz.I've had bad experience with Ali Express, bought some meters and some of the numbers was on their sides almost some markings pale and some over done..... straight into the bin they went, they were quite comical to look at.... I should have known better.I Emailed them in Germany and then found a place in UK, here is the link of the drillhttps://www.shesto.co.uk/craft-model-and-hobby/hand-tools/drill-drill-holders/xenox-xe68128v-tbx-bench-drill-machine/A lot cheaper than RS, no idea what the warranty is but RS offers a 3 year one.Thanks for your input, Dave

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 08:42:25 pm
content: Quote from: Davy on August 02, 2018, 08:19:16 pmFor the little bit of PCB drilling I do a Dremel stand is fine .......but I use Paxolin PCBs so therefore I can use HSS bits, chucked.Never broken one drilling which is why I've stuck with HSS rather than get tungsten drills.0.6mm is the smallest I've used.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 08:44:23 pm
content: Quote from: CopperCone on August 02, 2018, 06:47:14 pmMore likely loose play somewhere in the spindle/quill mechanism if you need to insert/retract slowly/carefully. Carbide drills don't like sloppy mechanism'sAt uni we had "real" manual pcb drill and it was popping holes with amazing speed. I can't remember if the quill was pneumatically or electromechanically operated but it went up and down in a quick bang-bang-bang with every pedal press.(Pedal also operated "crown feet" that pressed down the pcb before the drillbit made contact so the pcb was clamped and woulnd't move)Dremel with the collets works fine if you build your own stand, couple of pieces 2x4's and a heavy duty ball bearing drawer slide works...

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 09:04:16 pm
content: by small I mean like a 0.2mm drill or something, maybe 0.1mm.IMO its a bargin for 200$. I can't see you getting better performance for the price on such small drill bits.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 09:41:55 pm
content: Quote from: CopperCone on August 02, 2018, 09:04:16 pm0.004"? That pretty small, particularly in carbide.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 09:45:44 pm
content: I've never heard of Xenon. I have seen the same drill in another brand, too, besides Proxxon, though I can't recall the name.This probably just infuriates OP, being so unrelated, but it does speak a little to Proxxon tools:1. I have no problem using the 12V Proxxon rotary tool in the Proxxon stand, down to 0.5mm carbide, and that's using a chuck. I haven't purchased anything smaller. I don't feel any vibrations from user standpoint. The only time I have broken a bit while drilling a hole is when the set screw on the stand wasn't battened down properly.2. Collet vs chuck: I use the chuck in the Proxxon for PCB drilling. I use the same tool with 3mm and 1/8" bits for other things. And I don't change it for PCB drilling. I used the collet in the Proxxon I used to use for routing/machining, to reduce the length of the bit/sideload. But that's about the only reason in this case. I have 3 Proxxon tools (and 4 proxxon tool chucks; RIP original Proxxon). I have used them all for milling and drilling with no detectable loss of anything over the collet. So.. Proxxon makes good chucks, perhaps?That said, nope. You wouldn't need a chuck for carbide drill bits of different sizes. Unless maybe you had a mix of 3mm and 1/8" shanks.+1 on 0.2mm being super tiny. A bare 30AWG wire is larger than that and wouldn't fit through that hole. What it for, Copper? I was wondering if he made a typo, or something. My smallest steel bit is #80, and that is 0.35mm.I used it once, and the 30AWG wire went through with room to spare... but too hard get it started in the hole!Uh, wait. I already know the answer. Making holes in PEX tubing for an etch tank bubbler?

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 10:23:05 pm
content: I measured the type of drill bit that was giving me problems on a micrometer, it is 0.2 mmeverything above like 0.35mm is fine on the proxxon press, you need to be real careful with the 0.2mmthey are the kind of drill bits with the standard size that tapers down to whatever dimension and come in those little plastic kits that pop open.

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 10:25:53 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on August 02, 2018, 09:45:44 pmI did use it in the bubbler but the holes self seal.I never used it much, I thought it might be useful to own because I had some ideas for ultra compact PCB in a weird case that would require wires to go through the PCB and have very high density, almost like dead bugging a bunch of SMD parts in the smallest form factor, for things like amplifiers attached to narrow probes. I think I got them in a set. Like a micro twisted pair that is designed to minimize the length and shield gap. I like to build things deemed 'pain in the ass' like ships in bottles and stuffyou can get real fine wire on some signal transformers from digital communication systems, like 36 or less AWG.. I don't know where my little spool I collected went but I think it was like 40AWG from a LAN card or some shit.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 10:28:55 pm
content: QuoteThey're so small, Banggood makes an oddly specific and niche suggestion for use.

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 10:31:07 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on August 02, 2018, 10:28:55 pmI know deisel engines have remarkably small holes in whatever their carburetor equivalent is. Drilled in hard metal no less.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 11:01:50 pm
content: Coincidentally, I broke my smallest carbide bit drilling aquarium tubing for a bubble tank. Like 7-8 years ago, or something. I don't know what PEX is, but like you I found these (much bigger than 0.2mm) holes were still too small and didn't let through any air. You ought to try a bubble wall wand, Copper. DIY machining can't bring you to the level of this synthetic material.

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 11:15:13 pm
content: I think I want large bubbles anyway.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 11:39:03 pm
content: Of course, you do.Years from now, when you can do 8/8 all day, I can't wait to hear how you finally managed to do it... exactly like everyone else.

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 11:48:46 pm
content: I am probably going to stick to using garbage bags I am not that tempted to fuck with the acrylic tank anymore.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 11:54:41 pm
content: on swear word other than "shit."LOLs for building an acrylic vertical etch tank, starting a bubble tank vs spray etcher thread, and a day later settling on garbage bags as the future of etching.

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2018, 01:23:13 am
content: No I just noticed that I had very good results with very little effort in the past, the tank I found, someone was using it as a flower pot in a experiment, its just the bag method is annoying to set up. After I noticed the column effect happening with the bubbles at pressures that worked in bags for bigger PCB's with better results I just said fuck it. Why tune a difficult process when I made giant mixed parts PCB's with the bag method in the past first try with bad exposure?It costs me 20$ a shot to test it on a big PCB. Not to mention someone brought up a shadowing effect that seems to happen with the engineered material, something I have never seen. It seems like it would cost me quite a bit of time and money to determine whats going on, if its confined to using the dry film... I am just cutting my losses. If I buy this stuff and start noticing some kind of shadow effect thats just more lost time and money. I literary poked holes in a acrylic tube using a needle, put it in my welded trash bag and got good results, its a no brainer for me. I would rather just buy quality parts to stick on the PCB.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2018, 02:04:07 am
content: Responded in your bubble vs spray etch thread.

author: Davy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2018, 08:49:29 am
content: Here's the explanation of the differences between Xenon & Proxon -:Xenox is the daughter of PROXXON, both items are produced the absolute sameway, the only difference lays with the color. Xenox is made forlaboratories, dentists, beauty salons. They prefer another color, not thePROXXON - green. But the white Xenox items are produced in much smallerquantities, therefore they are more expensive, but both are of the samequality.Best regardsDorothee RauchThis solves my problem, thanks to all who replied, Dave

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2018, 09:13:26 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on August 02, 2018, 07:22:23 pmI have only the "handtool + stand" combo, not the TBM 220 (or the larger one, not sure the number) unit. I didn't measure the runout, my dial indicator is pretty cheap and crappy unit (only using it to level the 3D printer bed) so it likely wouldn't show much.However, for 0.8 drills I use it with it is totally fine, never broke one in that. Visually you can see it is running true, unlike the cheap tools where no matter how you chuck the bit it will be wobbling around like crazy. The official runout specs are on the order of 1 thou, at least for some models.You are more likely to have issues with slop in the stands than runout of the spindle. The one I have has quite a bit of play.Of course, if someone wants to use 0.1-0.2mm drills, that's a different story and there you are likely pushing the hardware to the limits it wasn't really designed for.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2018, 09:23:12 am
content: Quote from: Davy on August 02, 2018, 08:19:16 pmThe Dremel stands are garbage. They will do maybe for some light woodworking but that's all. I am not far from Paris and there is a large hardware store there (BHV for the French guys here) where you can actually try all these tools - they have them side by side set up on a bench. Even just the feel of the stand when you try to manipulate it screams "cheap!". The Proxxon hardware is much better built in comparison.Quote from: Davy on August 02, 2018, 08:19:16 pmYeah, this kind of hw is risky to buy from there - expensive shipping and you have no idea what you get. Not worth the trouble, IMO.Quote from: Davy on August 02, 2018, 08:19:16 pmXenox is the same as Proxxon, it is their "pro" line mainly oriented towards dental labs and such.Re warranty - if you are in the UK, you will get at least the 2 years standard EU warranty on it (as a private person, if you are buying for business that is different).

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2018, 09:27:40 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on August 02, 2018, 10:28:55 pmBecause nobody else but people needing to clear clogs in their 3D printer nozzles would buy them from Banggood. A machinist needing bits this small will likely use a more reputable source.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2018, 11:53:18 pm
content: It's amazing how cheaply these can be made, assuming they work. For something that you will accidentally break with the wrong look, I would try it.I'm not sure if it is carbide or steel though. It doesn't say in the description. I think japanhalt might know something we don't from his previous post.If it's carbide or steel seems to make a difference with the cheap as dirt chinese imports. All my ridiculously cheap carbide bits are really nice and consistent AFAIC. The sharpening might not be pro quality, but the dimensions are at least good by my standards (I don't measure them with a micrometer, mind). The dirty cheap steel bits often have poorer machining tolerances that are noticeable in the shanks. Buy 10 bits, and you might get some that are grossly over or undersized or unevenly ground to where they barely fit in the collet and only get halfway straight.Makes me suspect some of these outfits are selling resharpened carbide bits to get the price that low. I understand used carbide bits have significant scrap value. It makes sense if many of them can be factory refurbished. With steel bits, you don't know if the heat treat has been borked. Those would be dicier to remanufacture.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 12:36:03 am
content: FR4 eats steel bits for breakfast. Almost all the cheap carbide bits are re-sharpened industrial bits. Not suitable for manufacture, but perfectly usable for home hand or cnc drilling where bit life and throughput are not really factors.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 05:06:58 am
content: I'm not sure that life and throughput are the major reasons, though. I suspect that in many manufacturing processes, it is just too much trouble to adjust software/hardware to account for the shrinkage and other minor variation in bit shape after resharpening. Whereas the home gamer might go a really long time on a single bit, and probably will be adjusting it for multiple jobs in its lifetime, anyway. Well, in particular, I'm thinking about mills and whatnot, that cut on the side. I suppose twist drills get most of the wear on the points.Whatever the reason, I love cheap carbide bits. The steel one are more of a gamble.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 03:33:18 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on August 04, 2018, 12:36:03 amCarbide drill sharpening services are also used in industry and I'm pretty sure nobody would invest on a million dollar pcb drill sharpening machine just to sell used drills to hobbyist on ebay

author: Davy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 06:48:46 pm
content: @janoc'Xenox is the same as Proxxon, it is their "pro" line mainly oriented towards dental labs and such.'Would you say Xenox were made to a higher spec? From what I can make out Xenox are made in Germany while Proxon, they may have their HQ in Germany but aren't they assembled in the Far east somewhere? It just seems odd two items being exactly the same in all but colours having two different names.Dave

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 08:20:56 pm
content: I do confess that I drilled all my homemade PCBs with a Proxxon MicroMot and 0.8mm drills.Anything smaller is too small for my old eyes to be adjusted perfectly.Now I use an external PCB fab for my designs, and they can make holes as small as you want.To do this by hand is a sort of slave labour, why do this ? Its tedious, drills will notoriously break, its inexact.If you really want to fiddle with holes that small personally, get a CNC machine.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2018, 04:03:31 am
content: I don't know what the rules are for such things in Europe, but my Proxxon TBM 115 label states "Made in Luxemburg".Quote from: Davy on August 16, 2018, 06:48:46 pm

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2018, 01:23:14 pm
content: Quote from: Davy on August 16, 2018, 06:48:46 pmNo idea, I have no first-hand experience with the Xenox branded gear. But someone said already that Xenox is basically the same as the green Proxxon kit, just with a different packaging/colors so that it doesn't look like an eyesore in a dental lab among all that white and beige gear.For me the regular green/yellow kit was plenty good already.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 04:15:47 pm
content: Quote from: Davy on August 02, 2018, 12:07:04 pmSmall size drill bits are usually not OK with any side load.So better thoroughly check the runout of the drill in the chuck with a dial indicator. Some are too inaccurate and do not match the collet system. Also a minimal amount of play in the quill is important, as the forces will make it move, the less the quill is extended the better it usually is in terms of runout.The smaller the drill, the higher the RPM should be, but most drill presses require changing over the belt.This is why i use the drill/mill stand and a small proxxon bfw 40e router (900-6000 rpm), it can take collets and i also have an albrecht chuck for it.