being problem solving caused me a bad quarter of an hour at work - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 11:18:29 am
content: I'm on a business trip, visiting a customer, and I am really tempted to end my collaborationI think due to a mix-up they didn't prepare the workstation in time. When I arrived there was literally no desk or chair.Rather than spend the day doing nothing, I looked for a free corner in the open space and worked with the company laptop they gave me.On the laptop I didn't find any of the software I had requested, not even Excel and Matlab, there was only a fresh install of Windows10.So I downloaded some open source software, Oracle VM, Gentoo/Linux, and compiled Octave, Gnuplot and a few other things.Three days after my arrival, the guy who was supposed to install the software I had requested before leaving came to meet me, discovering that, somehow, I was already operational: and here's the problem!He makes a phone call to the security guy who rushes into the office, doesn't even let me explain, in the belief that I have installed tons of unlicensed software - OpenSource, have you ever heard about? and yells at me.I let him finish his rant or whatever you can call it, in silence.With just "ok, sir, now can I talk to the manager?"

author: Fryguy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 12:03:09 pm
content: I have been there a couple of times , because i do exactly the same when i discover , that the tools i need to do my job have been misplaced or lost somehow . The best thing to do so far is to keep cool , say nothing , put on a slightly superior smile for the howler monkey and discuss the situation with someone above his paygrade .

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 12:36:44 pm
content: Companies had already been started to monitor installed software, even if it is open source.Some of them execute security clearance (testing?) internally before allowing to use them.Yet, downloading from local internal software repository can be mandated instead of fetching from internet.The rationale is that even open software can be infected with malware. I have heard that some python packages from pypi were already compromised.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 12:45:49 pm
content: You can blame Cyber Essentials for a lot of this. A UK government scheme to improve IT security. I believe if you contract with the government you MUST be Cyber Essentials certified.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 12:57:43 pm
content: Unfortunately a common scene nowadays. If you have to follow their compliance checklist and don't get the necessary (and approved) tools then all you can do is politely asking the manager to speed things up while drinking tea and playing minesweeper.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 12:57:57 pm
content: Quote from: benseno on February 13, 2025, 12:36:44 pmthat's why I compiled apps from sources.Gentoo style, trusted repos.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 01:44:54 pm
content: they where not ready for you, and it will cost them / him ... it's all their / his faultand the lack of respect and not let you explain one bit ........ well you know the answer

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 02:55:02 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on February 13, 2025, 11:18:29 am110% excellent choice, escalate until the pope in Rome if necessary.Yelling back to stupid people is 99% a waste of your precious time and unnecessary wear and tear of your nerve system.Can't wait to read chapter 2 of your unfortunate story.

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 03:31:51 pm
content: This is a very familiar situation with starting new jobs. No one is prepared for you to arrive. I've experienced it many times.Depending on the organisation, Installing random software is an issue. 1 for security and 2 for licensing. Did you check rigorously that all the open source software has a suitable licence to allow commercial use and did you follow the company policy for putting it on some sort of register or whatever so they can audit the licenses?If it is an issue for them though then they shouldn't give you unrestricted ability to install random software on their machines.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 03:32:20 pm
content: Management was correct about not allowing uncontrolled software downloads onto a company computer with access to their internal network.Management was negligent and stupid about assigning you to a computer without promised normal software.Would they have allowed you to use a computer from your employer (or your own, if self-employed)?

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 03:38:23 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on February 13, 2025, 11:18:29 amWell done. I'd figure out what rate is required for me to want to keep working with them, then I'd tell the manager my rate increases starting March 1.Next time you're there, not given the tools they promised, tell the manager, you'll be researching aka reading things that may be relevant to the job, until they give you tools or authorization to aquire them yourself.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 03:47:07 pm
content: Quote from: DenzilPenberthy on February 13, 2025, 03:31:51 pmThis whole idea is totally ridiculous. All so-called open-source licenses allow "commercial use". Some may limit how the software isredistributedbut that's totally different fromuse.The whole question is similar to "did you rigorously check that your underwear is allowed for commercial use before coming to work"?The world would be much better place if people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about would keep their mouths shut and try to enjoy life instead of fearmongering and preventing others from doing their jobs.

author: PwrElectronics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 04:13:04 pm
content: Policy at my employer is you are not to install any software off the 'net no matter where its from w/o approval. I've gotten away with demo board interface programs though. But, bad on them for not being ready for you and nobody to even run through their rules and just left you to stare at the walls

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 06:17:44 pm
content: Of course any such policy needs to be delivered you written and you need to sign it for it to have any significance. Also companies rather need to apologize for having such policies, not be proud about them, and least yell to people for not following their unwritten "policies" especially when they mess things up first.This is total BS anyway. If installing any random software is a true issue to a company, then of course they have to technically prevent it in an effective manner, whatever that means*. Just coming up with a social rule ("policy") and hoping people would follow it is... well, super irresponsible (in the case that the rule exists for a reason). And if there is no reason for the rule, then... does it matter?*) I mean, we have these things calleduser accounts,permission levels,superusers,userland softwarefrom... 1970's or what? But I guess when you work with Microsoft Windows products, all you can do is to yell at people.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 06:21:19 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on February 13, 2025, 11:18:29 amI guess you don't get out much. That's pretty normal, especially if you are just going there for a day or two to sort out a problem. If you don't like it avoid customers like the plague.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 06:22:26 pm
content: nowadays you can say for security or for AI and then do whatever you want.

author: 1xrtt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 07:43:13 pm
content: I would make a wild guess that your case was just not given priority. The proper way around was to escalate to whoever you were working with (the "let's talk to your manager" thing) and let them know the consequences of not having the laptop ready to the specs you asked for (You did provide a list of your requirements, before going to site, right?).Depending on how they deal with that, you could decide if you wait, reeschedule or just "I had enough of this", walk away and never come back. Any of these are perfectly appropriate actions.But start installing software on customer property without asking first, definitely was not.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 11:21:25 pm
content: As you were visiting a customer, I suppose that they were paying for your trip and time?If they like wasting their money, it's on them. Not cool but a good indication of how this customer operates.And basically leaving you with almost no means of working and suddenly ending up getting interested in what you did to nearly throw you out. That's fun.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 11:34:13 pm
content: If they have a "no user installed software on company computer" policy, it's pretty trivial to set up windows to enforce that policy by itself. That is a negligent IT department if they just expect their IT policies to be self enforced. Either do it all the way or don't do it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 11:38:46 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on February 13, 2025, 11:34:13 pmYes that too. And if they actually have a policy in place, they should have made him aware of it and sign it before handing him a computer anyway.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 12:17:31 am
content: Bill them, & tell them you will come back when they have organised the things you need.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 08:58:22 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 13, 2025, 03:32:20 pmAnd likely the respective managements for these two choices are not the same.I work in IT. And yes, restricting the installed Software is normal and expected. I am rather surprised that you were even able to install software, as useraccounts will not get administrative permissions on company devices where i work. Never. Any admistrative work will need to be done with a separated account, and only someone who really needs it gets one.And only company owned and managed devices can connect to our network, so no ByoD *at all*.But being blindsided by department managers is quite usual. It happens too often that people are hired without any notification, and on the startday it is suddenly noticed that they need hardware. We have had it happen a couple of times that new hires needed to wait a day or two to be issued hardware. And at least once facilities had to magic up a desk from somewhere

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 10:08:01 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 13, 2025, 03:47:07 pmThat is a very broad statement that doesn't quite hold water. There is not only one "open source" license and many have use restrictions or other issues.Even ignoring open source licenses that explicitly allow only non-commercial use (many Creative Commons, a lot of academic software, e.g. plenty of the current AI models ...) there are many licenses with various stipulations that may or may not be compatible with the business interests. E.g. (A)GPL anything is giving our legal heebie jeebies and is banned by default at our company.There are many licenses that have anti-patent clauses that could be problematic. There are many licenses which are plain invalid because while the author was well intentioned, they are unfortunately not lawyers and screwed up - e.g. some dual/multi licensed packages where the two licenses are mutually incompatible and the author specifies that the software is licensed under both of them. Such software is practically unusable.Then there are the whole geopolitical discussions, such as using Chinese or Russia-made products, sanctioned entities, etc.Basically, at any larger company compliance is a major topic and you can't assume that because something is "open source" it is OK to install and use. That's why all the software must be approved by legal, it is meticulously tracked, etc. That the OP got yelled at and got security called on them is completely understandable in this context, even though it is rather unfortunate.So yes, you do have to "check your underwear before going to work". If you don't, you will most likely be the one escorted out of the door by the company lawyer/security sooner or later.Quote from: Siwastaja on February 13, 2025, 03:47:07 pmI would suggest you heed your own advice here.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 10:50:14 am
content: One example that burned quite a few companies is the Java Runtime Environment after Sun got bought by Oracle.Java is open source.But the implementation by Oracle is not free for commercial use. Not even close to being free. Never mind how many people in your company are actually using Java. You need to pay a licence for every employee you have, even if you only use a single install of the JRE.Luckily, in Java's case, there are several actually free implementations of the JRE available.Similarly Virtual Box. While the base is free, even for commercial use, the expansion pack is not.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 11:02:13 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on February 13, 2025, 11:18:29 amYou are being bullied by a person with an obvious dark triad personality disorder.When this happens to me, I go on a war path. I expect every interaction of that person as some sort of power play, to screw me over or to satisfy their twisted mind. Give them zero satisfaction doing this. I can literally walk past them every day in an office, say good morning, and have no further interaction. I told my boss that I'm either way not working with them, because either they place me on another project, or I quit on the spot.Calling the security guard on a computer issue... Sorry you went through that.

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 11:43:10 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 13, 2025, 03:47:07 pmA friend of mine literally this week had to get something (hardware not software) that is open source licenced built for her by a volunteer organisation because it is specifically not licensed for commercial use.If you tell your auditors that your company's policy for ensuring licencing compliance is to just assume that all software you install is licensed for whatever you want to do with it, they will very quickly tell you to shut your mouth, I can assure you.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 12:00:03 pm
content: Quote from: DenzilPenberthy on February 14, 2025, 11:43:10 amAn example in my toolbox isMobaxterm:you can download a "free version" and use it only for personal thingsif you want to use it for business activities, you have to buy the "professional version"Which I did. It's registered with my name!The manager didn't understand the matter well, and called a "responsible for IT security and legal practices related to the use of the software", which is ok ...but threatening me that"if it turns out you are wrong, you will be charged for the entire cost of the verification"In the end ... everything was in order! Still waiting for his apologies, which will never arrive

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 01:10:34 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on February 13, 2025, 11:18:29 amWhy are people discussing this?Problem is you. You should have simply said to them that since they didn't provide you with means to work that you are going for a nice lunch and will be sightseeing the town until they give you a call it is ready. And yes, you will bill them full working hours of work until they do. For days, if need be.With a smile.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 01:43:26 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 14, 2025, 01:10:34 pmIt's easy to say that. It's easy to agree with that. Yet in real life people also want to Do The Right Thing, solve the problems they are paid to solve.Usually, what follows is:* Refuse to work, blame for others not allowing you to work--> you are held at blame--> you need to fight - record evidence, write letters,provethat you were not able to workbecause of others- to get paidEven then it's iffy. They can say like, "why didn't you try to put more effort in asking for the software to be installed? You going for a lunch instead of persuading us to supply what you need was your decision, why would we pay you?"How are you going to prove you did your due diligence trying to work with the limitations?Even if you succeed persuading them to pay you, your business with them is over. No one is happy.There is other option:* Work around the limitations.--> You provide them what they are paying you to do--> You are happy--> They are happy - USUALLYNow,in hindsight, it seems that forthis case, the former choice of going to lunch instead would have been better. Possibly? But not all cases are like that. I have almost always operated in the way of using my own common sense to Do The Right Thing, not doexactlywhat I'm asked to do, and in 99% of cases that results in very happy everyone afterwards.Besides, I'm still not sure if the "lunch plan" would have been correct even in this particular case. I hope we hear more from DiTBho after the dust settles. It's well possible the damage was limited to someone yelling, and others being very happy that the job was done nevertheless. It is well possible it turns out this individual is well known for yelling at everyone, and the real management of the company being more focused on getting jobs done efficiently. We don't know yet.I also suspect that many on this thread saying how they would have left the scene or refused to work would not have done that in real life, but instead do something similar, downloading some software seeing that the IT department did not prevent it at all.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 02:09:07 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 14, 2025, 01:10:34 pmSo long has he hasn't broken the law, or any contact with his employer, then they have no right to subject him to disciplinary action. If they didn't want him to download software, then they should have told him from the start. Where I work, on my first day of employment, I had to agree to a use of IT equipment policy, which included a clause stating I shall only use company approved software installed by the IT department.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 07:48:43 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 14, 2025, 02:09:07 pmEven ifhe signed a contract saying downloading software is not allowed, it does not automagically make stuff like "charging for verification costs" legally possible.Maybe in America, if the contract is carefully written by lawyers, it is possible to ask for such costs from the subcontractor/worker. In most other countries (and in case of unclear contracts) requesting compensation for damages requiresexistence of damages, and even that might not be enough; alsointentionor serious enoughnegligenceneeds to be proven.In 99.99% of cases angry guys coming to yell at you and claim that you own money to them due to xxxx can be shrugged off as having ego issues.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 10:00:28 pm
content: I still think that installing software on a work PC - or any PC that isn't your own - without permission is highly questionable, if not completely wrong.In the OP's case, I think he probably solved the wrong problem. "No software on the PC" is true, but it isn't the actual problem. Theactualproblem was a process failure: the IT department hadn't installed the software. The absence of software on the machine isn't the problem per se, it's theresultof the real problem: a process failure in the IT department.This isn't sophistry or nitpicking; the correct solution is to fix theprocess(ie persuade the IT department to do their job and install the software).

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2025, 10:16:43 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on February 14, 2025, 10:00:28 pmThe problem is - this isyour opinion. Many share this opinion, but there is no really strong, obvious logical path to that opinion. Neither there are laws that clearly say it's wrong. It's a textbook example of an arbitrary social rule, and those are nasty because tosomethey are so obvious theythinkthese rules don't need to be clearly laid out. Yet, for others they are not obvious at all.I have always installed software on work PCs and nobody ever yelled at me, never said it is questionable or wrong

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2025, 10:44:42 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 14, 2025, 01:10:34 pmWhile this sounds good and might only work in lalaland. In the real world, they will get you into the boss's office he asks you: "Why are we paying you xxx EUR per hour? You are gone, we are not paying, take it up with legal".

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2025, 10:52:08 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 15, 2025, 10:16:43 amYes, of course it is - that's why I wrote "I think" at the beginning.Quote from: Siwastaja on February 15, 2025, 10:16:43 amI don't know - if I put myself in the opposite position and ask how I would feel if someone installed software on my PC, I think I'd be pretty pissed about it, plus I'd want to know where the software came from and what security issues might arise. And licensing issues. It is reasonable for the IT people in an organisation to want to control the configuration of all the PCs they are responsible for. I think it is reasonable for an employer to say to an employee, "This PC is for you to use. Use it, don't mess with it."It seems obvious to me that installing software on someone else's PC without permission is wrong.However, it's only my opinion - we don't have to agree. No hard feelings.

author: eTobey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2025, 11:14:52 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on February 14, 2025, 12:00:03 pmI feel with you. Such poor charakters are all around us.Allthough you will encounter such individuals on many places, i would suggest the following:- just increase the rate there- decrease the value that his company is to you.The first point one will either spare you with such an charakter, or at least pay for such difficulties. The second point will move you towards companys where working is actually great.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2025, 06:27:03 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on February 15, 2025, 10:52:08 amYeah, I kinda understand how this kind of idea is born, but really, as I said, not obvious to me at all. If I hired an expert to do a computer job for me, I would be fine with them installing a piece of software. I would primarily trust them for choosing to use a correct piece of software, not install viruses, not pirated software, and not something licensing of which clearly prevents the use.Of course I would monitor what they are doing. If the job is very sensitive/important (e.g. safety critical), I would have someone with similar skill level monitor them. Or not allow them to work alone at all, but in teams. Of course. But this hasnothingto do with software tool licenses per se. It's a wider issue.And in this case we already know that the employer is not interested at all about the quality of work or how the work is performed, except a single detail about software used.It's not like choice of software is any different from any other choice or decision. Like, they can do serious mistakes within their work as well, regardless of tools. They can use either their downloaded Octave, or company-supplied Matlab to calculate wrong numbers that cause significant loss for the company.Which of the two scenarios do you think is more likely:* Worker/contractor downloads Octave and some other open source software to design an algorithm and calculate coefficients* A piece of software they use to display a pop-up window on screen while developing has a (somewhat rare) term that evenusefor commercial purposes is prohibited (irrelevant side note: this goes against the original spirit of open-source); worker makes a simple human error not reading the license carefully* Through some magic that I can't understand the author discovers that the tool was used internally in the company against the license* The have guts to sue the company for over something so trivial (history knows only a handful of cases of open source companies taking legal actions, and those have been serious incidents involving redistribution)* This causes legal consequences, financial loss and time waste for the companyor* Worker/contractor happily uses company-supplied Matlab after wasting 3 days doing nothing* They make a simple human error on designing the algorithm* This faulty algorithm causes MCAS to activate or whatever* This causes legal consequences, financial loss and time waste for the companyI would say the latter is like one billion times more likely. And probably a person who is capable of solving problems related to their tooling is also more trustworthy as an algorithm designer. I would persuade him to become permanent part of the payroll instead of kicking him out!If the company operates in a way where no one cares shit about the job (not providing them even with tools; or monitoringwhat they are doing), then clearly they don't care about the output very much. How is the fact that the worker downloaded Octave and some open source X server ofanyimportance here? If DiTBHo implanted an actual freaking backdoor in the work he created, no one would have batted an eye.And if I was a malicious actor, I would be very careful to follow surficial rules not to get too much attention.But instead of hiring someone capable of understanding what the work is about and monitoring it (which would have resulted in noticing they are lacking tools!), clearly they have some completely unnecessary "let's tick some boxes" IT safety officer wasting everyone's time and probably everyone in the company hates him and he responds by yelling to everyone. But on EEVBlog forum this guy is of course a hero.And while we nitpick about alow-riskoflow-levelcontract breach, nearly every large company all the timeintentionallybreaks the laws to the extent they feel confident about.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2025, 06:30:03 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on February 15, 2025, 10:44:42 amWell he is not an employee. He is outside contractor. He came to do the specific job. What is next? He needs to help bring his desk to the floor, clean the windows, furnish the office and install electric installation for the place he will work in...He came to do specific job. If job is not ready to be worked on than you wait. Depending on situation, you might not really say "I am going sightseeing" but you simply sit there for two days and wait patiently.Especially because you are not an employee, you cannot do any of the stuff he did. No tampering with other company PC, no access to the network, downloading or installing software.Sitting there for two days might provoke a heated discussion with the client (and by that I mean a person in charge that you signed the contract with) about how how are you going to charge your time you are wasting because of them.But any unauthorized access to the network, installation of software and such will definitely be immediate grounds for contract termination.