EMC testing minimum requirements and product classification - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2024, 07:44:07 am
content: I took an EMC course but the guy was really resistant to me sharing his knowledge (or maybe he just didn't know any shit)(Another possibility I don't understand any shit). We got bogged down in more technical stuff.Anyway.What I'm wondering is, for example, I want to sell an electronic product to America or Europe. The rules vary from region to region, yes. How can I determine the minimum test requirements for the product?First, it makes sense to categorize the product as electronic and then do some research.For example, what are the relevant documents and articles that make this categorization for Europe?FCC Part 15 (for U.S)CISPR 22 (EU)EN 55032 (EU)If we look here we can see that there are thousands of documentation.

author: PGPG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2024, 08:58:26 am
content: Quote from: electronx on August 27, 2024, 07:44:07 amIn Europe you have to apply all directives that concern your product.For electronic products it probably will be subset of following directives: EMC, RoHS, WEEE, LVD, RED.Each directive specifies what you have to do to apply it and how you document that you have done it.Then when you have done it you issue CE declaration and you can put your product at EU market.

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2024, 09:36:42 am
content: There are approximately 2263 documents. Will I read all of them and establish the relationship between them and my product? Or will they send me the list of required documentation when I apply for Europen Confirmity? Sorry, I have never worked on getting a CE certification before.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2024, 10:22:00 am
content: Quote from: electronx on August 27, 2024, 09:36:42 amand now you realise why these consultants cost so much, any one of those n (2263) documents might apply and its up to you (or your employee/contractor) to figure out which are relevant. Fun times when you don't know if it applies or not until after you buy a copy of the standard for XXX eurodollarpounds.

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2024, 10:29:18 am
content: Quote from: Someone on August 27, 2024, 10:22:00 amLet's say there are missing or overlooked documents. In the final stage, when we get the Europen Confirmity document, are the people working here familiar with all 2263 documents? Aren't there any points they overlooked?I'm sure there are people who are experts in their field but I have seen so many emc "experts" working in this field who do not understand electronic design or rf. My sense of trust in those who claim to be experts in the market is decreasing day by day.They just memorized the test procedures and have no idea what's going on underneath.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2024, 10:55:55 am
content: Usually, if your product isn't too exotic, you can just look at the declarations of compliance of your competitors to figure out what applies.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2024, 10:58:57 am
content: Quote from: electronx on August 27, 2024, 10:29:18 amAnything overlooked may potentially still be discovered once your product is for sale on the market. If you ignored compliance, this could potentially mean that your product will be recalled.And obviously a recalled product is more costly than ensuring compliance in the first place.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2024, 11:04:46 am
content: Quote from: electronx on August 27, 2024, 09:36:42 amNo, you hire a consultant who does this for living and within a two hours of work knows which 7 of those 2263 documents apply; for you it could take two hundred or two thousand hours. You still have to read through some standards and prepare documentation which shows the compliance, but you can offload 95% of the work, getting pointers what is exactly required for your product.The same firms that do EMC testing usually can help you with this. And it isn't always easy even for them, especially if you are looking wide internal coverage and not just CE (EU).

author: Phoenix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2024, 11:21:05 am
content: Sounds like what you really need is a compliance expert with knowledge relevant to your product category. A lot of test houses can help classify your product, but of course it costs money...For examplein EU if your product is mains powered its likely covered by the low voltage (lvd) directive (2014/35/eu).This directive then leads to specific EN standards, depending on the type of equipment eg EN 61010-1 for scientific equipment or EN 60601-1 medical devices.These parent standards will likely be part of a family that one of those provides the emc requirements eg EN 61010-1 will reference EN 61326-1 (which then may further reference EN 61326-2-6 for IVD devices). These contain specific requirements for testing, such as test levels, equipment operating conditions, how to assess safety, performance levels and so on.These emc specific standards then reference things like the 61000 series, cispr series or their regional equivalent. These contain the details of how to conduct the tests.Now rinse and repeat for each region you're interested in.

author: selcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2024, 11:59:51 am
content: The list of tests is not a generic information that you can have in an EMC course. That depends on the device, application field and the related country. When you want your device to be tested by a test company, they require you to fill in a form about your device. You need to supply information about supply voltage, RF communication, power consumption, cable connections etc. Then they can find the required tests for CE certification for example.Let's think that you have a very basic device and assume the related directive is 2014/30/EU for Europe. Then before doing the tests you want to use the Wifi functionality of your MCU and just add an antenna connector. And write Wifi in that form. Then directive becomes 2014/53/EU and all tests are different now. ESD, radiated immunity etc. tests can be similar but reports are different.But if you are planning to do precompliance tests at your office, I can recommend you to check these as a starting point for Europe:EN 55032 Conducted Emission TestEN 55032 Radiated Emission TestEN 61000-4-2 Electrostatic Discharge Immunity TestEN 61000-4-3 Radiated, Radio Frequency Electromagnetic Field Immunity TestEN 61000-4-4 Electrical Fast Transient - Burst Immunity TestEN 61000-4-5 Surge Immunity TestEN 61000-4-6 Immunity to Conducted Disturbances Induced by Radio Frequency FieldsEN 61000-4-8 Power Frequency Magnetic Field Immunityhttps://www.emcstandards.co.uk/diy-emc-testing-series-2001

author: wilhe_jo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2024, 09:24:51 pm
content: Quote from: electronx on August 27, 2024, 07:44:07 amThat one is long gone... and CISPR is a special committee of the IEC. So that's something international.CISPR 32 is the successor that gets mentioned in "the fcc15", and is implemented eg. as AS CISPR 32 in Australia.in the EU this is EN 55032 (550... Are CISPR docs in CEN/CENELEC).Anyhow, CISPR 32 is not enough for the EU .. that's only emissions. In the EU, we also care about immunity... The matching Standard to CISPR 32 would be CISPR 35.If you have radio involved, everything changes (as others suggested). You get an intentional radiator in FCC 15 and as mentioned above, you have to apply the RED in the EU. With this you basically just care about ETSI standards and even though you are USB powered, at 14W, you'd better have some flame retardant enclosure....EN62368-1 is your friend...Long story short, this kind of knowledge is kind of "tribal knowledge". Either you pay someone to tell you what to do for a particular product, or you spend 5-10 years in some compliance engineering department of some bigger corporation that makes similar products.BTDTnow I'm helping startups with my business and running my own EMC lab... Trust me, this whole compliance topic is pretty huge. Each and every country/state has it own quirks... Simple stuff like packaging can get pretty frustrating.73

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2024, 09:39:15 pm
content: Quote from: electronx on August 27, 2024, 07:44:07 amThat is a though question to get an answer for. You need to hire an EMC consultant for that; one who is willing to share which tests are actually needed for your product and what kind of test gear you need to go any pre-compliance work.But it all starts by defining the usage situation for your product and its electrical properties. From there an EMC specialist should be able to tell you which tests would need to be applied to your product. From experience I know it can be hard to find a good EMC consultant, but they are out there. Going for a pre-compliance is a good idea. In one project I'm involved in the customer choose to skimp on that part which caused delays to the project because some surprises turned up during testing. And that is another problem with EMC testing: you can only do so much at your own lab.Testing in Asia can be considerably cheaper (between 2 to 3 times) if you have somebody over there who can take your product to a lab and oversee testing.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2024, 09:40:54 pm
content: Dude is willing to drop 40-50000 EUR at a testing house, but doesn't have the money to hire a consultant to identify which standards to test on.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2024, 09:41:52 pm
content: takes a long time to learn all that stuff and its needed only when you make a design so expect expensive consultants otherwise its not worth anyones whileunless someone has it integrated into the design process. but usually you don't find that kind of brainy managerif someone can confidently tell you WHAT tests you need to run to complete a manufacturing cycle, they are worth alot of money. because they are critical to your release date and timelines. Its a critical part of your timeline to know what you need to do. Typically these consultants would be having meetings with the highest level of R&D (the one that gives the dates and estimates to marketing), so its a high tier position if you are working with planning. If you are working with execution then its a normal job. So its in the consultants interest not to do work above their pay grade.Am I helping you with your proposal or do you need me as a regular worker to run specific tests? If I have to figure out what tests you need, I expect high management level compensation because its part of release planning and shit like that.I strongly recommend not to get involved with strategic planning unless its formal because suddenly you get ALOT of pressure and you might not even know what kind of crazy ass decisions someone made because of something you said.At that point, its like hiring a hand for project planning! if that is the case then consulting is more like temporary high level position. $$$Maybe a inexperienced manager might not realize there is a difference between a release plan, and executing specific tests. One is a management decision (project planning), the other is a mixture of technician and design/test engineer.It might take a whole nother skillset to determine the project planning aspect of EMC. Because they would need to know your project very well and your sales/marketing intent (end user and end user use) and analyze that to determine what is legally relevant! EMC is a legal issue, most products would be totally functional if no effort was paid to EMC. Internally, you don't want unhappy customers that have local interference and problems with systems integration, but externally, its basically a law you need to comply with. for a EMC design, you can probobly solve your internal problems with smart EMC decisions, but IT MIGHT NOT make it comply with the law. Usually it would be in the right direction, but its a black and white issue. You either meet the standard or you don't. No in between. Its a stamp. Stamps are often crazy and unreasonable.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2024, 08:41:57 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 28, 2024, 09:40:54 pmTesting doesn't have to be THAT expensive but it will probably be in excess of 10000EUR anyway, and the consultation part of relevant standards is indeed a small % of the total. Like 1000-2000 EUR or so.

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2024, 09:11:01 am
content: I've seen prices in Central European countries ranging from 7000 to 14000 euros for simple PCB's. They even have an engineer team that provides support if you fail the test.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2024, 09:53:22 am
content: Quote from: electronx on August 29, 2024, 09:11:01 amYes, and the consultation services prior to testing are AFAIK normal business for many of them, and still fit within that price range. Just ask them. If they don't offer it, they surely must have some recommendations.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2024, 10:19:45 am
content: Quote from: electronx on August 29, 2024, 09:11:01 amYou want FCC.Selling it in the US comes with a bunch of rules and mandatory testing.Good luck, you are going to need it.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2024, 12:20:31 pm
content: EU only you can probably get below 10000EUR, including consultation of which standards are needed. Unless your device falls under surprisingly many standards or demanding ones, I don't know, the consultant will.Getting into many international markets easily doubles that if not more so maybe if your device is not trivially simple and you try to multi-market in EU, USA and maybe somewhere else then tszaboo's 40-50k isn't so far-fetched anymore.

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2024, 02:41:01 pm
content: Hellothe easiest way is to send a RFQ to several testing companies with a clear technical description of your product asmain power : AC ? DC ?what that generate / do / purposeclass IP ( Ingress )enclosure raw materialdomain : house / toys / car equipment.........and read their answer that will provide you some useful informationYou can also check on challenger products / similar what they have a compliance certificate ECRegardsOS

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2024, 03:21:31 pm
content: At the same time, this information will help me, as a hardware designer, to decide what kind of protections and precautions I need to take at the device inputs and outputs.While you are taking these into consideration before the design, are you also making a preliminary evaluation about the design with an EMC expert? Issues such as TVS diodes, DDR clock lines being on the top layer,buck converter critical path etc.

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2024, 03:53:49 pm
content: HelloMain concern came generally from the PSU , if possible use a OEM PSU as TDK Lambda or other brandAfter the shielding , light cheap enclosure are worthRegardsOS

author: wilhe_jo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2024, 08:25:17 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on August 29, 2024, 12:20:31 pmUS can be cheap! You only need to make the FCC happy. UL and all tho other NRTLs are only "voluntary" (read: retailers and certain group of customers require it) for most products!Fcc15 contains wording that allows testing to CISPR32.62368-1 is also adopted by the UL.So in the extreme case, you declare compliance to EU regulations by testing for the US. 0 additional costs.But there are caveats... and that's what I charge my customers for.Going international isn't that much more expensive.. you have the CB scheme and such. Your biggest problem are the local representatives in all countries/regions...But everything highly depends on the products and your country list.73