now that my hopes for Altium hobbyist edition have been dashed, now what? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: slburris
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2011, 06:42:50 pm
content: For a couple years I've watched the little videos on the Altium web siteand concluded that these guys have put a lot of thought into how aCAD/EDA package should work. I've always hoped they would releasea low cost version with just schematic capture/PCB and clean up thewhole low end of the market.Well, I think that recent events pretty much rule out any focus forAltium on that segment of the market, so what now?Like most of us low enders, I've been using Eagle for several years(the non-profit license, which is still limited, but less limited than thefree versions). I could probably spend many paragraphson what I consider to be broken in Eagle (parts management, what's that?),but I'd rather discuss what might be better.I tend to run on a bunch of different platforms, so ideally I wantsomething that runs on Windows, OS/X, and Linux so whereeverI am, I can work on a project. I do spend most of my designtime on Windows. Oh, how about storing the designfiles in some documented format?I've looked at the gEDA suite and found it to be kind of a mess,probably because it's a disparate tools bundled together.I'm currently trying really hard to like DesignSpark. I'm finding that I'mhaving to make an awful lot of new parts from scratch and that's reallydragging me down. Yes, it has some capability to convert fromEagle and I've tried that, but it's buggy and didn't do a very goodjob on a complex project I tried to bring over.It's been awhile since I looked at KiCAD, maybe its parts librarieshave improved to the point where I should try it again? Looks likeit has ports to all three platforms.I've tried AutoTRAX in the past as well. It was so buggy at that pointthat I felt it was unusable for me.Someone have another favorite? Should I continue down theDesignSpark route or try KiCAD again?Or am I going to find that barrier to switching is high enoughthat I just go back to Eagle and grumble?Scott

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2011, 06:52:27 pm
content: Quote from: slburris on April 07, 2011, 06:42:50 pmAnother one to look at is Diptrace. It's similar to Eagle in that there's free and non-commercial versions available. They license the various levels by number of pins, rather than board size, which makes much more sense to me.www.diptrace.com

author: armandas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2011, 07:51:09 pm
content: Even though I'm an OSS supporter, I don't think that knowing how to use KiCad will help me get a job, so I have't tried it. I'm currently, uh, evaluating Altium.When I first started using EDA software for PCB design, I used a free version of EAGLE. It made me think (wrongly), that I, under no circumstances should have to make my own parts, ever. But then, someone at uni said that EAGLE is a piece of c*ap and I should try EasyPC (a "father" of DesignSpark) and gave me the CD. The problem was that, even though the software was much more advanced, it did not come with a lot of parts and I had to create my own in order to do my project. Now Altium has much more parts available, but I still like to make my own.What I'm trying to say is that no matter what software you are using, you will (should?) still have to make your own parts. So if you find a package that suits you, use it and you'll soon have your own library.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2011, 08:04:20 pm
content: it took me some getting into but I find KiCAD very promissing. I'll never find a job in the industry though don't need pro package skills on my CV. If anything I'd go self employed and do very low end stuff that larger comapnies can'rt be bothered with

author: slburris
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2011, 08:52:44 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on April 07, 2011, 06:52:27 pmThis rings a bell - I've tried Diptrace in the past but can't remember whyI didn't like it. Maybe I need to give it another chance. I hear about Eagleall the time, but rarely hear anything about Diptrace. Anyone used it forsignificant designs?I'd like to pick something that others are sharing parts for if possible.I really hate building my own parts, especially with 100 pin VQFP and 208 TQFPpackages I'm working with.In Eagle, I could make a reasonable part using the BSDL file from the manufacturer.It would be nice to find something that could import BSDL or IBIS files as a starter point.Why can't there be a standard for publishing parts symbols and pcb land patterns? Themanufacturers would publish this for their parts, and the EDA software would import itand we would all be happy.Yes, I know Microchip and others are doing this Ultra Librarian stuff. It sorta works,although I've had some issues with using that in Eagle. Not sure if that's an Eagleproblem or a UL problem.Scott

author: dfnr2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2011, 10:59:33 pm
content: I did my first non-homemade PCB on the free AutoTrax on a DOS emulator on SunOS in the mid-90's. When I started consulting in 2001, couldn't afford the fancy packages, and gEDA was too fluctuant, limited, and not nearly as useful as now, with basically no libraries. I found the free version of Eagle and it had huge libraries, was easy to use, and free for small boards, so that's what I used for a couple of prototypes until I made enough to spring for the Pro version of Eagle. In 2009, I evaluated almost every other package out there, and found Altium to be an amazing value (the price had just dropped.) Even though it was about the cheapest of the professional-grade packages, it was easier to use and had superior features that worked well. I liked Pulsonix as well (big brother to Easy-PC and DesignSpark), but the price was more than Altium for less capability.The main advantages of Altium over Eagle, for me, were- the hierarchical structure, making it easier to move/reuse/duplicate subsections of schematics and routing;- the broader model of parts, more than just basically just schematic and footprint, so that the supplier info is included in the part, and I no longer have to work almost as hard putting together the BOM as I do on the PCB;- The built-in version control, allowing not only version management, but actual comparisons between versions. Previously, I saved the files and used RCS.- Cross probing and cross selecting; selecting parts on the schematic and then placing those selected parts on the PCB- more basic built-in functionality; not having to use a ULP for simple stuff like re-annotation.- 3D modeling - in fact this was the driving force, since some designs had to fit in tight enclosures requiring close work with a mechanical engineer. It's still work to make it happen, but worth it.- I was interested in the FPGA features, but those were a bonus, not affecting the decision.- tons of tutorials and examples- Great user communityRegarding Eagle, some things that I thought were fine were:- The User interface. It's different, and I like Altium more, since sometimes you just want to grab a part and move it around. However, I worked just fine with the Eagle interface after I got used to it.- Eagle is multiplatform. That was critical for me, as I ran Linux exclusively for many years.- Eagle has great integration between the schematic and PCB editors- Good ERC and DRC checking.- lots of library parts and templates- Great user communityI plan to continue using and maintaining my Altium license, but I maintain my Eagle license, and will probably upgrade to Eagle 6 as well. With the new hierarchical structure, one of the major gripes will be gone. For hobby use, the other issues are not as serious.Regarding the library, I find that Eagle has great libraries for through-hole parts, and nobody has great libraries for surface mount. I think everybody has slightly different preferences, and will have to make most parts once; then using the software gets easier and easier when you can pick previously created parts. You can find IPC footprints for Eagle, and copy standard symbols, so part creation is really not too difficult. It's about the same for any software, once you learn the tricks.If I were a hobbyist on a budget, I'd look forward to the new Eagle 6, but I'd also keep one eye on the free programs, and check out DesignSpark and EasyPCB.Dave

author: PeterG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2011, 02:31:14 am
content: I did not know of Diptrace until now, and i got to say my first impressions are very good, it seems to be a lot more refined than Eagle. I feel Eagle has slipped behind the rest of the crowd in recent times, including the free alternatives.Regards

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2011, 01:17:39 pm
content: Quote from: Darkman1969 on April 08, 2011, 02:31:14 amThat's not saying much

author: PeterG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2011, 10:13:02 pm
content: Point takenRegards

author: slburris
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2011, 03:09:20 am
content: Today I started looking at Diptrace, as Sal Ammoniac had suggested.I watched their series of introductory videos, and found myselfsaying "Hey, that's a lot more work to do that in Eagle", and"Hey, I wish Eagle had that feature". On the whole, this looksmore polished than I was used to.So I downloaded it and have been trying it out for the past few hours.I'm finding the parts libraries both comprehensive and baffling at thesame time. I'm using a fairly obscure PIC part in my design, thePIC18F97J60, and yep, it was in there. But there's no 3.3v net port,just 5v and 12volt. I'd expect 3.3, 2.5, 1.8, and 1.2 to be pretty muchstandard at this point. No matter, I created one from the 5v net port.Didn't have the LP2992 voltage regulator, but had many other Nationalparts. No matter, created one with the parts editor.I found I could export my collection of symbol from Eagle and importthem into a new library. So far, that's worked pretty well. A coupleof cosmetic oddities I can go fix, but it seemed to work better than whenI tried this in DesignSpark.Still struggling with the learning curve, mostly trying to figure out how todo things that I know how to do in Eagle. Like, how do you specify a netname with inverted logic, i.e. a name where a line is drawn above thename (overlined?)? That's been used in schematics for decades, isn't therea way to do this in Diptrace? Of course you couldn't do this in Eagle untilversion 5, so maybe I expect too much.Anyway, just my initial thoughts on this program. So far I'm having a goodtime with it!Scott

author: armandas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2011, 07:59:34 am
content: Quote from: slburris on April 24, 2011, 03:09:20 amJust started watching the guide tour. They show how to do it while building a flip-flop, you just use ^ symbol.

author: DaveW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2011, 09:44:38 am
content: If you're liking Diptrace the yahoo group on it is really useful and there's been lots of times that complaints on there are rapidly fixed or suggestions are implemented in the next versionhttp://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/diptr/

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2011, 11:40:18 am
content: Going from bread board to PCB.You'd think by now there would be a simple PCB design solution for us non techies. I mean, it'd be awfully nice if I could fire up a open source circuit design to knock up a simple circuit to take your basic project from the breadboard to a PCB(1).Then, feed that into a OSS pcb layout designer program. (2)Send that to someone on the internet who could whip up just one board for a fair but nominal fee, paid via ebay, paypal etc (3)Caveats:1. The circuit designer does not have to include support for complex micro-controllers and other parts not available at Jaycar for example.2. Again, just simple single side, thru-hole construction of ordinary parts. If it can't be used on a breadboard, don't include it by bogging down the pcb designer program with overhead of multi-layer pcb's with surface mounted parts. WTF?3. Surly by now it should be possible to send a standard format file that describes the pcb layout to a manufacturer to make a one-off circuit board.I have a paranoid suspicion the reason why nobody takes up this task is because hobbyists are exactly that: hobbyists. There's no money in that market and can you imagine the tech support trying to sorting out someone who doesn't understand electronics at a very deep level.There must be a buck in that market somewhere...

author: benkiki
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 24, 2011, 06:19:52 pm
content: For my school project initially i use KiCAD, but later found out it still have a way to go for beginner like me to understand. Later switched to Altium Designer. Far better than anything else. I won't bother with any other software after this. By the way i was doing a single sided, through hole only board. A4 sized.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2011, 08:35:42 pm
content: Quote from: benkiki on April 24, 2011, 06:19:52 pmThe issue is not the quality of the software, but the price. The $5k (or whatever it is) is kinda steep for most hobbyists, no matter how good it is.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2011, 09:22:14 pm
content: Quote from: alm on April 24, 2011, 08:35:42 pmHOW MUCH? Five grand!! Wow! I thought a couple of hundred tops.

author: RayJones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2011, 09:37:58 pm
content: Yep 5K, but that was quite some time ago.In the end it really is just a glorified vector graphics application. If you are only after simple designs the DRC function can be easily performed by that lump of neurons we all possess.If you are really cheap you could even do things with MS paint - but that is sheer punishment value.I actually did do something along those lines way back in the early 80's - you could only view a 3" x 3" area of the PCB. Resolution was 80 DPI - which matched the venerable dot matrix printers of the day, so the view port was actually 240 x 240 pixels. This was all on a 256 x 256 homebuilt graphics card within a 6809 based system. PC's were still in the price range of Altium's offerings those days!I designed a few S100 sized cards (10" x 6") using this tool, but yes paper and pencil was also involved in the manual routing process, then the computer was used to make it neat.A few years later I got to use Protel, and being a vector based approach was far superior.Essential elements being start point, end point, line width.The rest is just fluff really.Ever used Bishop Graphics? That was the manual form with crepe tape, mylar and prebuilt component footprints, typically done at x2 scale.Even if you are really tight, I'd only consider 2 signal layers as a minimum.The problem is these days everybody wants the whiz bang 3D graphics, pan and zoom etc. That is really where the real work hides, getting the GUI to do the job properly without consuming all the cycles of a supercomputer.For the fundamental requirement this is not needed.So what good vector graphics tools already exist?Visio is one that comes to mind.Never tried it personally, but there are certainly schematic symbols, and could easily craft up PCB footprints.It certainly does not cost 5K+

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2011, 11:00:30 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on April 24, 2011, 09:22:14 pmYes, that's how much Altium costs. It was around $12K at one stage, so $5K is quite cheap by comparison.The problem with Altium is that they push everyone into their "vision" of what they think electronics design should be, and as such the PCB module is effectively "optional extra". They refuse to offer a basic lower cost limited PCB/SCH solution.They are delusional.If you are a student then there is a $100 (/year?) full version available.Dave.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2011, 11:17:27 pm
content: Quote from: RayJones on April 24, 2011, 09:37:58 pmVisio is owned by MS these days, and costs something like $200-$800, depending on the edition. But what's the point? Kicad is free, Eagle ranges from free to a few hundred dollars, and I'm sure there are various alternatives below $200. Both applications are far better suited for this work. Yes, you can use any basic vector package, but why if there are free or similarly priced EDA packages?Quote from: EEVblog on April 24, 2011, 11:00:30 pmYou pay around $100 each year (I've read €130 in the EU), and lose access to both the software and your data (except a read-only viewer) after you graduate unless you pay full price. Sounds like a good deal if you're trying to become a professional PCB designer, not so much otherwise. Plus having used Altium probably makes using something like Kicad or Eagle much more painful.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2011, 05:32:14 am
content: Quote from: alm on April 24, 2011, 11:17:27 pmActually, Eagle jumps from free to $1000 for most useful stuff things.The $500 version of Eagle is still size limit restricted which is ridiculous.This has been discussed on TheAmpHour before.Dave.

author: tnt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2011, 05:42:49 am
content: Well:* Most of the improvements end up in 'minor version' upgrade and so you get them for free for a long time (like 2/3 years)* The limitation of the 500$ version will be enough for most hobbyist. I never exceeded those limitations ... (but granted I do mostly stuff with SMDs where one of the design goal is being small :p)* If you're non-profit, this version is only 125$.(Note I do have the pro version full version because I got it for work 2 years ago ...)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2011, 06:46:50 am
content: Quote from: tnt on April 25, 2011, 05:42:49 amTry doing say a very simple single sided PCB with a couple of leds on it, like a LED chaser, but it just happens you need it to be 161mm in length.Your $500 package won't do you any good at all...Dave.

author: tnt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2011, 08:46:36 am
content: Sure but you can be smart about it :pIt's often cheaper in prototype services to make like 5 exact same boards of (161 / 5) mm wide that interconnects between them than making a single one piece.Or if you're extra sneaky, you can even write a script that scales down by 1/10 ... (including parts library and such) and then re-scale up the gerber :pOTOH, I agree that the 500$ should not exist.There should just be the 125$ non-profit and the 1000$ full, not point in between.Because anyway what would I do with a 100$ version of Altium that doesn't run on my dual linux / osx machine ... At least eagle made the nice decision to use a cross platform gui.

author: Scrts
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2011, 12:38:19 pm
content: Quote from: alm on April 24, 2011, 11:17:27 pmHm, is that renewable each year? Or it is possible to buy the software e.g. 4 years forward? I can't find any information how to buy Altium software as a student.The university has 10 floating licenses available, however a group consists 22-25 students, which means, that it is impossible to allow more than 20 students to work with software when sitting 2 persons at a computer. Whats then? They encourage students to steal. No money for additional licenses, but also it is not worth to teach students to work with such software like eagle/kicad/geda/etc. Why? Almost all bigger/better companies work with Altium and there is a demand of people working exactly with Altium.The higher the price - the more people will use the software illegal.

author: armandas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2011, 02:05:25 pm
content: Quote from: Scrts on April 25, 2011, 12:38:19 pmHere is the PDF I got sent from Altium representative in the UK. Yes, you basically "rent" the software for £95/year.

author: benkiki
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 25, 2011, 02:42:19 pm
content: Yeah I'm a student. The downloadable library Altium has is just amazing. Some of my classmates using OrCad have to draw some of their own components. They insisted on using OrCad because they said OrCad can autoroute on single side PCB(is it true?).

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2011, 03:46:32 pm
content: Quote from: benkiki on April 25, 2011, 02:42:19 pmI don't care if it can route in mid air, if you depend on auto routers to such a degree you are either retarded or have no sense of dignity.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2011, 05:58:03 am
content: Quote from: Hypernova on April 25, 2011, 03:46:32 pmQuote of the week?Dave.

author: tnt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2011, 08:58:54 am
content: Quote from: Hypernova on April 25, 2011, 03:46:32 pmOr most likely both :p

author: slburris
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2011, 03:44:28 pm
content: Well, I use autorouters because I'm lazy and hope the machine will dothe hard stuff for me! That being said, I try to co-design my schematics andPCBs so that I know that some things will be easy to route.Haven't tried the Diptrace autorouter yet. It's got to be better than Eagle!I tend to have a mix of English and metric packages on my boards, and thatdoesn't sit well with Eagle since it insists on routing on a grid.What I'd really like is an autorouter that understood FPGAs and that I couldexpress that certain groups of pins could be swapped in any manner theautorouter felt necessary, and it would feed the swaps back to me in anupdated constraints file.Scott

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2011, 10:37:42 pm
content: If you use the auto-route function as a student, your lecturer will be able to tell at a glance, and will (or at least should) mark you down for it. Conversely, if you produce a good looking PCB that you have clearly spent time on, then that would be worth extra marks.When I was a postgrad student we used a piece of software called SATCAM. Coincidentally, SATCAM was also produced by an Aussie company just down the road from Dave, who still seem to be selling it!http://www.satcam.com.au/rtd.htmlIn my student days they didn't let you take software home, and torrents were more than a decade away, I used CorelDraw (another vector art program) to produce my PCBs. I would print them out at 300dpi on my DeskJet and then get then photocopied onto overhead projector transparencies. Doing the job manually meant that you really thought about component placement and routing. Roughing out the design on graph paper beforehand really helped. I have produced a couple of PCB designs on Adobe Photoshop, but it takes forever and the results aren't fantastic.

author: PeterG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2011, 11:18:52 pm
content: I just dont trust Autorouters 100%, but they are good for doing the bulk of the routing for a project. I find i almost always end up having to finish off the routing myself.Regards

author: benkiki
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 29, 2011, 08:08:47 pm
content: Thanks for the pointers.Coming from the Ugly Construction Method. Routing PCB was new for me. Component placement and orientation was very important in order not to overlap any of the routes. Learned a few tricks such as routing between the pins and under the components. Took me a while to figure out everything. Our faculty PCB fabrication lab only accept single sided board.

author: seattle
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2011, 07:59:44 pm
content: Quote from: slburris on April 24, 2011, 03:09:20 amI was a long time eagle user that switched to the non-commercial version of diptrace (4 layers max)Overall I like diptrace a lot. I imported some libs from Eagle, but creating parts and footprints in diptrace is so easy that I don't import anymore.The libs in diptrace are a bit confusing, and moving parts between libs is a bit of a pain. Schematic entry is really intuitive, but lack of multi-line text is debilitating. Also, tabs cannot be changed in the schematic, which is almost as debilitating. Moving between schematic and PCB is good. There are two autorouters. Shape based is very good. Grid-based is awful.Gerber generation is easy. I used to prefer sending the eagle files directly and letting the board house do it, but it's so easy to create and check gerbers so I just do that now.They just released a new beta of diptrace that supports 3D parts so you can export to check the fit in a case.Their development cycle is a bit slow. They do one big release a year. I'd prefer something a bit more incremental perhaps 2-3 times per year

author: slburris
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2011, 03:16:21 am
content: I've now been using the Beta version of Diptrace for several weeks now. I'm seriously thinking I will switch to it over Eagle. I used to dread doing new parts in Eagle but I've found it's not too bad in Diptrace. I've been able to knock out parts pretty easily. The only thing I miss is the ability to import BDSL files to automatically do the pin numbering and naming.I'm finding it hard to quantify why I like DT better. It seems they have put a lot of thought into user interface design. Things I find clumsy to do in Eagle seem to flow much better in DT. Just attaching nets to a bus and having the line labelled automatically is a few less steps than the same operation in Eagle.Scott

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2011, 03:24:02 am
content: there's recent discussion on pcb standard. reminds me of this thread. and coincidentally, am working on my first project using "proper" EDA, ie diptrace, yes! first time can you believe that?. well, so much for a poor old guy (me). last night is my first autorouting. i do believe that intervention of manual routing is a must, nothing substitutes human intelligence. and diptrace has gazzillion of libraries thats enuf to make me dizzy. i prefer my own library and parts only, so making my way step by step on it. i give diptrace full 4 thumbs up! thats how a modern GUI should looks like and works. and i would like to thankSal Ammoniacfor this as the original proposer for this software. here a some random dumb, but super breeze autoplace and autoroute feature. if i go into seriousness, i will have no 2nd thought to buy the full licensed version at$695.edit: hah! what a coincident posting Scott!

author: slburris
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2011, 09:44:52 pm
content: Well, I've now put my money where my mouth is. I like diptrace wellenough that I've ponied up for the 500 pin limit version, and I'm currentlydoing a project with a 100 pin ARM processor and a 100 pin Spartan 3AFPGA.I no longer dread having to make new parts like I did in Eagle. To methe user interface seems much more intuitive and well thought out.Being able to slowly upgrade to bigger versions in $100ish chunks isa big plus for me too.I would have seriously bought Altium based on their video tutorials, if theyhad offered some sort of non-profit/hobbyist license, but as we know, that shiphas sailed.So $145 has gone to another company, not much, but if 10,000 hobbyists aroundthe world purchased, that's $1.5M that Altium left on the table.....Scott

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 07, 2011, 11:53:10 pm
content: Quote from: slburris on June 07, 2011, 09:44:52 pmIronically, that amount would get them out of the red and into the black.Coincidentally I've been arguing that exact same figure over on the Altium forum.Dave.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2011, 02:17:07 am
content: yeah diptrace is something different. i dont have to read help file anymore, or at least minimal. which i become more lazier and lazier.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2011, 06:12:00 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 07, 2011, 11:53:10 pmSome companies just hate to deal with hobbyists out of sheer arrogance (I am looking at you, Farnell, Arrow and the like). They feel it taints their professionalism.Fortunately that gives room for small upstarts. At work we recently had to buy a development environment for a microcontroller we normally don't use. I took the opportunity to get a small company added to the list of suppliers in our ordering system. One I knew from dealing with them before as a hobbyist. And I made sure we ordered the stuff from them, instead of one of the big distributors.I know Farnell and the like won't break out in a sweat because of that lost sales. But it gives me great pleasure whenever I can make sure some of my employer's money doesn't got to companies who love to deal with me at day as an engineer but hate me at night when I am a hobbyist.

author: shadewind
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2011, 08:19:50 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on June 08, 2011, 06:12:00 amIt's sort of funny that they advertise element14 as "The community for both professional designers and hobbyists alike" in the Ben Heck show

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2011, 11:58:35 pm
content: Quote from: shadewind on June 08, 2011, 08:19:50 pmBecause they know that you can't build such communities based on professionals alone, as they typically don't give a toss about such things.It's the same reason why the Altium forum and ecosystem is practically dead.I still don't understand The Ben Heck Show and Element 14 sponsoring it, it's for gaming modders, not electronics enthusiasts. And they spend a FORTUNE on producing that show.Dave.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2011, 06:21:58 am
content: Quote from: shadewind on June 08, 2011, 08:19:50 pmI know, and for me it is just adding insult to injury.Farnell is free to do business with whom ever they like, and not to do business with whomever they hate. Here Farnell hates hobbyists and never did business and still doesn't do business with them. If they want to stick with that business decision, fine, their right.Farnell aren't the only ones here doing this. However, going out in public, claiming to have a "community for ... hobbyists", even integrating a shop into the community website directing you to Farnell, but then telling hobbyists to piss off when you want to use that shop, is just first class asshole behavior.I sincerely hope Farnell is wasting a lot of money on Element14, and I hope they will do so for a long time. In the meantime I will do my very best to make sure Farnell doesn't get business from my employer. You don't want me at night as a hobbyist, you don't get me at daylight as an engineer.And, by the way, Farnell, your Element14 website sucks.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2011, 11:59:43 am
content: Farnell in Germany lets you buy if you're a student. They even give you a 10% discount....woohoo >.>I don't understand why they make different rules for different countries. I have a relative who relays the mail to me, since they only sell within Germany. Finland's Farnell webstore has a very different range of products by the way, apparently they don't sell lithium batteries (those 3 V CR1 etc). Very inconvenient!

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2011, 12:07:49 pm
content: Yeah, I didn't get the animosity towards Farnell, but I guess if they have different policies in different countries, that might explain it.Personally I've only ever used them for obviously hobbiest level orders, and I've never had anything but awesome service. I've tried RS a few times and generally they screw up and I don't go back for a while. The other suppliers I keep meaning to try but generally they don't have the range and so I end up back at Farnell...However the Element14 stuff I just ignore - I've looked at it a couple of times and I'm really not sure what it is, or what it's trying to be.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2011, 04:44:06 pm
content: Farnell is great and friendly unlike RS that is lazy and defensive in case of problems.I don't quite understand what modern students expect from grown-ups. Do you mean they refuse to sell point blank as soon as you state that your occupation is student? You just need to suck up and move on. Sometimes you talk to a manufacturer and they treat you like piece of sht just because you are self-employed and don't have an "Inc." company.If you are good there will be time to pay back. Digikey and Phoenix Contacts once screwed me up by taking the piss and giving me 20% higher price quote for a part I have been buying for years in reasonable volume (~$10k/year). I have called their manager and challenged that. He explained that Phoenix is putting the prices up "imminently." OK, I bought at higher price but after 6 month the base price on Digikey website did not change but indeed fell. Exchange rates in £/$/€ did not change. I have called back their top management and accused them of outright lie - they started to mumble something about imminent pricing increase again. At that moment if he just said "it was my mistake, we just wanted to see if we can fleece you a bit more, sorry" we'd still be friends.Instead I have told Digikey that they have lost a customer and an easy flow of revenue just because of greed and lies. In a day I got a sales manager visit and a price match on a superior product from WAGO.When I was a student in 80's there were no educational discounts or free samples like today.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2011, 05:56:03 pm
content: Your Farnell might be friendly. My Farnell refuses to deal with everyone but companies. Maybe not if you are a student. I don't know, I couldn't pass as a student even with the best cosmetic surgery in the world. And I am really not in the mood of begging companies to sell to me.I don't like companies like Farnell that claim to do one thing, and in reality do the opposite. And I don't like their employees when they claim nothing is wrong. So I do have my little revenge when directing my employer's money away from them. They don't want my money, the will get less of my employer's money, too.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2011, 06:33:47 pm
content: Farnell is a distributor. Have you tried talking to manufacturer directly? Call their local office and complain that you can't buy their product.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2011, 08:00:39 pm
content: RS are very good to me. I'm a hobbyist and I get free delivery on any order, thanks to the fact I signed up with a business account when working for my previous employer.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2011, 08:04:16 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on June 09, 2011, 08:00:39 pmTry ordering something online at 6PM for next day delivery.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2011, 08:44:28 pm
content: Quote from: Leo Bodnar on June 09, 2011, 08:04:16 pmYes done that before, not that I ever need anything that urgently.And since we're talking about students, why would they need next say delivery other than because they've waited too close to the coursework deadline before starting their project?

author: shadewind
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2011, 09:52:59 pm
content: Now don't get me wrong, I like Farnell a lot. For me personally, it's not a problem since I run my own little business so I can happily order from Farnell and receive the order on the next day, shipped from UK to Sweden. I've never had a problem with them to be honest, always great to deal with. And when you compare the stock of Farnell with the stock of ELFA, the biggest Swedish component distributor, there's really no competition.But at least here in Sweden, Farnell refuses to deal with you unless you are a registered company and can provide an "organization number", something I can do, fortunately. I believe RS Components are the same. Most American distributor doesn't seem to care, though, and they'll happily sell to anyone. DigiKey shipping is too high most of the time but Mouser gives you free shipping over a certain order total.But then again, I prefer using Farnell since I know the order will arrive the next day at my door... and I live right in the middle of nowhere.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2011, 10:25:11 am
content: Quote from: shadewind on June 09, 2011, 09:52:59 pmi agree which led me to order from element14 in my recent order. just few mg of chips can save me ~9/10 price compare to if i order from digikey. e14 now have their branch in my region, limited stock though.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2011, 11:47:22 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on June 09, 2011, 08:44:28 pmEnthusiasm.If you need to wait ages for parts, your enthusiasm for a project can die and you go onto something else.In any case, in Australia you get free next day courier delivery from both Farnell & RS, and they will sell to anyone with a credit card, or even cash at the trade counter.Dave.

author: slburris
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2011, 04:27:18 pm
content: I've never had a problem ordering from Newark here in the US, whichis Farnell/Element 14/name of the week.I used to have big problems trying to order from the big boys Avnet, Arrow,Allied, etc., but again at least in the US, they will take my order now.Still you can run into ridiculous line or order minimums though.I remember in the 80s trying to order from Wyle Laboratories. I hadto drive down to their building, sit in the reception lobby and hand thema cashier's check for the parts I wanted. Not an easy way for a hobbyistto do business back then.Frankly, I'm starting to order direct from the manufacturer for a lot of things.For example, I started ordering various LED displays direct from Kingbright:http://www.kingbrightusa.com/Default.aspbecause their stuff seems to be out of stock a lot at Digikey and Mouser.Not only were they happy to take an order from me from their web site,their prices were *cheaper* than the distributors. I'm not sure howundercutting your distributors makes economic sense, but I'm happy tosee it.Scott

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2011, 12:39:37 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 10, 2011, 11:47:22 amSome times I feel forced to continue a project I lost enthusiasm of just because I paid quite a lot of money on it.

author: slburris
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 03:53:46 pm
content: Quote from: slburris on June 07, 2011, 09:44:52 pmQuoting myself....I'm now working on a bigger project so I upgraded from the Lite version to theStandard version for an additional $200. So that's $345 that's gone to Diptrace,which would have gone to Altium, had they let me do so.I've become a fan of Diptrace's pricing model as well. Cost by # of pins makessense to me, compared to say, Eagle's model of charging for board size whichI really didn't like.Scott

author: shadewind
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2011, 12:54:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 10, 2011, 11:47:22 amI don't really understand why they won't do that for SwedenAnyway, doesn't matter to me since I have my own company.I totally agree about speed for not losing enthusiasm. Enthusiasm for a project is not something you can easily control yourself

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2011, 04:33:13 am
content: Quote from: slburris on July 05, 2011, 03:53:46 pmYeah, board size is a poor way to limit a PCB program I think."Complexity" based on number of pins and/or layers is a much better way.Dave.

author: hisense999
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2011, 11:46:22 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 17, 2011, 04:33:13 amOne page of schematic and 2 layers board this limitation will be enough and can fit in any hobbyist project. Also watermark added automatically to Gerber files.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2011, 12:22:19 pm
content: Quote from: hisense999 on July 17, 2011, 11:46:22 amThat would make a brilliant free version of Altium.$100-$200 gets you say 4 layers and the same one sheet schematic limitation (any size schematic sheet of course), or maybe two or four sheets to temp people into the whole harness wiring thing. Next step up the full blown package.Altium would own the market from hobbyist through to medium end, and dominate the market, yet they are too delusional to see it. What a shame.Dave.

author: Bloch
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2011, 12:29:58 pm
content: My vote go to a release Protel 99 as freeware or 1-200 $.1. It old2. It miss a lot of new "things"3. For the beginner / or for the guy that not very often need a good program

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2011, 01:10:40 pm
content: Quote from: Squonk on July 17, 2011, 01:58:15 pmAnd you avoid BGA if at all possible!QuoteDon't get me started on that!I just had a fight with Jeri and Chris on todays AmpHour over this!ASIC isn't going to happen at the hobby level (unless it's some co-op service or something), and neither is home made chips, forget it. It's just a cool thing to do, but is otherwise impractical, and will have no relevance to the foreseeable future of electronics design.QuoteNot to a vast majority of hobbyists, and many small scale commercial or OSHW projects.Countless very useful projects fit within the various layer/size/pin limitations.But I get your point about it can be an irrelevant limit.Limits can catch people at many ends of the design spectrum, and it's not necessarily the complex end.It's a hard choice to make when you cripple a package in some way.For example, a single sided 165mm long board with 2 leds on it at either end can't be done with the $500 Eagle package!QuoteYou don't, the honor system usually works just fine if the prices are reasonable.QuoteIronically, I was hired to give them and industry perspective and advice. They didn't like it, and they don't want to listen to me now (or anyone else!).I hope they change their mind.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2011, 01:17:37 pm
content: Quote from: Bloch on July 19, 2011, 12:29:58 pmThat would likely ruin the company.Deep down i think they know that 99SE is probably 99% of what most of their current customers need in a PCB/SCH tool.And releasing that for free would likely be very bad for business.They be much better off releasing a crippled/cheap version of their latest and greatest, at least that way they can better temp people into the higher end/higher priced package.Too bad they made CircuitMaker 2000 disappear. That was a decent package, and a really nice simulator to boot.Dave.

author: peter_mcc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2011, 10:43:22 pm
content: HiI'm glad I found this forum! I used Protel/Altium at my last employer and was happy with it. I've just bought a small electronics business and needed to get some SCH/PCB software.I was keen on Altium but... it's $A6.5k for the software plus 1 year of bug fixes. So that was out... Mentor was around the same.I started playing with Eagle, because it seemed like everyone else was using it - at least on Sparkfun and a few other sites. Wow - it was just painful! Too painful. And weird - why do you use "cut" to copy things to the clipboard?? I did a whole schematic design but couldn't get the PCB side done because of the PCB size limits on my (expired) trial. Given that they wanted $1500 for a useable version (because my enclosure is 170mm long... just outside the 160mm limit) I wasn't keen.So... I stumbled across this site/forum & heard about DipTrace. It's great! I miss my Protel 99SE keyboard shortcuts (v a = view all, etc) but I can live with it. I've redone my library, schematic & PCB in no time. It's simple to use, makes sense and seems powerful enough. As soon as the trial ends I'll be buying it for sure.peter

author: joelby
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2011, 01:13:38 am
content: Altium just responded to my request for information on a student license.. six or seven months after I submitted it through the Web form!I eventually did manage to get on to someone by emailing sales.au at altium.com (which I found buried somewhere on the site), but it was annoying that it was such a struggle to pay for the software.

author: qno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2011, 07:39:12 pm
content: A little trick with EAGLE.You cannot place components in outside the size limited area but you can make the board outline a little bigger than the restricted size. So 161 mm should work as long as the components are within the 100 * 160 mm.

author: Gridstop
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2012, 06:09:48 am
content: Yes you can put the dimensions as far out as you like in Eagle, as well as put drill hits and traces & ground plane outside the allowed area. I've used this for the 10cm by 10cm boards from itead/seeed to put the mounting holes in what would be wasted space, and run a couple traces around a few components at the edge.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2012, 08:14:35 am
content: I've been away from this forum for a while but have been still getting the videos. Those free designer tools that Dave did his 'first impression' on just about negate the need or use for a Altium hobbyist edition it seemed to me.Is this the case?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2012, 09:22:27 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on March 17, 2012, 08:14:35 amThere is always room for another player in the low end PCB space. And the Altium tool is very good.Dave.

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2012, 04:37:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 19, 2011, 01:17:37 pmIt didn't disappear! You just need to know where to look for it. "Wink, wink, nudge nudge, know what I mean, know what I mean?!"

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2012, 05:27:53 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 19, 2011, 01:10:40 pmAt 23 cents per share they are going to need something to improve their market capitalisation. Or maybe they are hoping for a takeover or PE buyout.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2012, 10:37:35 am
content: Quote from: DrGeoff on April 04, 2012, 05:27:53 am23 cents is a bonanza compared to their low of 8 cents not that long ago.Considering their market capitalisation used to be well over 1/4 of abillion dollarsat one point, they are down into pennies on the dollar territory.Dave.

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2012, 08:46:08 pm
content: And still not attractive as a takeover target. Says a lot for the perceived market and value of the company.

author: diracshore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2012, 04:08:08 pm
content: Now you either give Altium 5K or you stop by the pirate bay and spend 50c on a burnable DVD.I think Altium would prefer you learn their CAD over the competitions, even if it were through a pirated version. This was Microsoft's strategy in China.Then if you actually learn the CAD system and it makes you money, by all means purchase the retail version. If it is not working for you then reuse the DVD as a coaster and you will not have lost that 50c.

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 05:11:56 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 19, 2011, 01:17:37 pmAltium shot themselves in the foot when they released Protel99SE because they made it to damned good for the time. It even runs rings around alot of low end offerings that are available today. At the end of the day you are just interested in the copper pattern and drill holes that defines a pcb and 99SE does a good job of going from schematic to PCB without to many hassles. Somehow there are a lot of people that could not justify using Altium for a simple two layer board design which incidiently may end up being a mass produced item. In this case 99SE is more than adequate for the job and quite often I see many ebay audio designs done using 99SE. Somehow lots of bells and whistles doesn't always translate into productivity !Having said that I believe Altium is the future and if Altium designer can match pads pcb in its manual routing capability then Altium will truly have won the race. For example I tried to do some of these things in Altium and it seemed crippled even though their advertising blurb says otherwise !!regardsdavid

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 09:57:19 pm
content: altium has had that interactive push n shove since protel 98 ... pads only has had it in the last 2 or 3 years ...shift-R to cycle through the modes...mia drag. same storyM -D anc lcik on via. the traces will follow.same for pushing unlocked objects out of the way. sits under system-preferences- interactive routing.the only thing they don't have is cutting the tracks ( plow -trhrough ). but that is boneheaded anyway. if you need to cut that many tracks : change layer.something that altium does have , that i have not seen in other packages : multitrack routing.S - L ( Select touching line ) draw a line through the electrical connections you want t e grab.then invoke the trace multiroute. you are putting all traces in parallel... if you have autocomplete on ... you know what i mean.

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2012, 02:05:42 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 05, 2012, 09:57:19 pmYes I know that but it never has been able to push vias or jump tracks over vias so is limited for that reason. Try and do what is done in that pads video and I bet you can't !! Altium claims it can move vias out of the way but when I tried it, it was a bit lame. But I will have another go at it because ultimately that is the package I want to migrate to.Also when you move or rotate components Altium won't automatically reroute and reconnect tracks like pads does. You just end up with a whole lot of violations and you have to clean up the mess yourself. I have a friend who changed from protel to pads because of these features. He said he would spend all day re-editing a board in protel when in pads it was a 10 minute job.Altium needs to focus on the power user aspects of pcb design instead of getting sidetracked with all of this fpga crap. Sure they have added some great features like bus routing but they should fix up the fundamental issues that consume users time !!regardsdavo

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2012, 03:58:59 am
content: Quote from: snoopy on June 06, 2012, 02:05:42 am

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2012, 11:36:08 am
content: Quote from: snoopy on June 06, 2012, 02:05:42 am

author: gerrysweeney
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2012, 08:07:05 pm
content: Diptrace is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. I wrote thishttp://gerrysweeney.com/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-schematic-and-pcb-software/about it having used it recently. AutoTRAXhttp://kov.com/is another possible option for the hobby small user but it has its own problems

author: hlavac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2012, 10:51:10 pm
content: I went through all of that so I can relate.Tried Kicad - it was corrupting some components in schematic when saved, i think diodes.Even bought AutoTRAX, not that it would be usable for me, but to fund its further development as a competitor to Eagle, but then he started doing it in .NET with the Microsoft's silly toolbar interface and it got unusably slow so I gave up on that one.Used Diptrace for quite a while but it was a bit too simplistic and in fact as limited as the free Eagle, just in a bit different way. And my libraries got corrupted a few times, I just didn't have the confidence in it not losing my work. Ditched.Ended up buying the (pretty expensive dammit) hobbyist version of Eagle 6.0. It has everything I was missing (internal component connections, yay! Finally I can do a proper tact switch and route thru it). Size limit sucks, but 16x10cm is better than the 10x8 of the freeware edition. I do my boards myself and big ones are harder to do, so it is kind of tolerable.It's a bit nonintuitive in the start (like moving a group of parts - ctrl-rightclick? omfg you got to be kidding). Not that it's the weirdest of interfaces - have you seen LTSpice?But in the end I found everithing I was looking for, even the stuff I thought was not there, so I kind of like it... yes the licensing policy sucks big time I have to agree with Dave on this one. And the local european distibutors are a ripoff, the prices are twice as high as in the USBut the US branch will not sell to me directly...

author: zappaMan
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 01, 2012, 04:21:30 pm
content: Just to add some info to this thread. I just requested information on an academic license and was informed that the pricing for 1 year is now $480CAD! I'm a grad student (Power electronics) in Canada and just astounded at this price. As someone who has used Autodesk Inventor and Solidworks I am blown away. Both these products are virtually free for students (so we come experienced when we graduate) and don't expire even after we leave (they just put an academic notice on any output). I guess Altium doesn't have enough competition in the market to encourage them to do such things.

author: joelby
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2012, 02:31:51 am
content: That's pants, I just renewed my student license through the Australian office for about $120. You could always try asking them instead of the North American office!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2012, 04:03:16 am
content: Quote from: zappaMan on August 01, 2012, 04:21:30 pmThe lack of serious competition in their price/performance bracket is the reason why Altium still exist after doing almost everything possible to piss of their core loyal customer base, and work on everything but core PCB/SCH functionality over the last decade+Why be content to be the worlds best PCB/SCH tool, when you can be so much more?Dave.

author: hlavac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2012, 10:27:33 pm
content: I guess they would rather like to be the world's most expensive tool.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2012, 10:34:53 pm
content: Quote from: hlavac on August 02, 2012, 10:27:33 pmI remember when the package hit $12K+, not long after I started there.Then they slashed prices by 3/4 back to $3K or something.At the time they said they were burning their bridges and could never go back to being a high priced tool.Just another wild idea in the marketing mindset cycle they seem to need to go through every year...Dave.

author: dfnr2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2012, 03:36:29 pm
content: Wow, prices have been inching up. As a small (1-man) business, when they dropped the price to $3995 with a year subscription in 2009, it was an easy decision to buy it. Even the $1500 annual subscription is not an issue for me, but now that they're inching to the $7K mark for the same package, it's crossed the line for probably a large segment of the market. Other mid-range packages like pulsonix and even PADS playing in the same price range have lower cost a la carte options that may lure many otherwise sure-thing Altium customers. And, say what one will about Eagle, it is quite capable of making real-world boards, and if the recent internal changes lead to hierarchical structure capability, along with the new XML storage format accessible by external programs, it has potential to be a serious tool.I thought Altium had a great idea with the sub-5K price point, and yearly subscription model. Why bump up the barrier of entry to potential subscribers?And that's not even considering the possibilites of offering a more limited version (perhaps without dblibs, vaults, release management; perhaps even limited layers or pin counts) for the lower-end market.