It's more important to be effective than to be right - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 12:45:08 pm
content: So says the managing director of PayPal AustraliaAnd so spread by their official twitter account:And they replied!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 12:51:57 pm
content: Uploaded in case it's deleted

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 01:12:20 pm
content: Holy crap

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 01:21:08 pm
content: She would make a great politician.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 01:23:39 pm
content: Well, you have to give it to her. She's pretty effective at showing the world how wrong she is.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 01:55:13 pm
content: Do not be surprised - that is a typical message you will get when talking with (top) managers for many many decades already.The (top) managers in larger companies/organizations know usually a little about the details of the businesses they manage today. They usually come from sales and marketing, even from different industries.They primary role is the "people management" and the "revenue and cost management". These roles cannot be delegated to "techies" or to "fachidiots", they say.To "be right" is expected to be "the job of their subordinates"..

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 01:57:19 pm
content: Or perhaps she is just a software person. In the software world, you can ship *anything*, as long as it looks nice. Users are used to bugs and crashing.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 02:05:06 pm
content: She is probably only a victim of the "Peter Principle"Quotehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

author: hwj-d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 02:27:55 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on February 15, 2019, 02:05:06 pmQuote from: dr.diesel on February 15, 2019, 01:21:08 pmDon't understate the real problem.She and others on this level are more political as we believe.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 02:29:10 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 15, 2019, 01:57:19 pmI got where I did in the software game bynotbeing one of those. I actually listened to the end users and the give them something that matched - and didn't blow up. I may have had issues with my management on occasion, but the users loved me.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 02:29:47 pm
content: Quote from: hwj-d on February 15, 2019, 02:27:55 pmYou better believe it!

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 02:33:03 pm
content: (deep sigh as I prepare and gird my loins)I am very likely to start a minor flame war, with much self-righteous pontificating from forum members when I point out that when it comes to software the credo "be effective instead of correct" generally carry’s more water with engineering types, not just with pointy haired management. My experience anyway. This often insults people because they don't have the self-awareness of it and yet is true none-the-less.There is an infamous essay written by Richard P Gabriel called "worse is Better". Which is well known in the lisp programming community. You see there is a segment of that Lisp community that value program correctness and related qualities over the get it done and out the door ethos. The argument for worse but just effective enough being better than correct software is essentially an evolutionary one. Worse software has better evolutionary fitness, hence more marketplace success. VHS kills Beta.ttps://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 02:51:05 pm
content: No, it's important to know when to get a job done (being effective) and when to do a proper job (being right).

author: hwj-d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 03:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 15, 2019, 02:29:47 pmI know it!

author: HoracioDos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 03:21:16 pm
content: Quote from: madires on February 15, 2019, 02:51:05 pmThat's true. Many times we have to finish a job based only on our most educated guess.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 03:23:46 pm
content: Was she incompetently trying to express the idea that its better to be effective with a good idea than to search endlessly for the very best one?

author: hwj-d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 03:41:49 pm
content: Quote from: HoracioDos on February 15, 2019, 03:21:16 pmIn the momentary new world of profit maximization they get what they pay for. In the end, this parasitic attitude towards human being kills its owner. In this situation, it's quite ignorant of an individual to believe that the better quality performance of an engineer will prevail.Edit: this is mainly an answer to the inittial posting. And yes, that hurts.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 03:57:32 pm
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on February 15, 2019, 02:33:03 pmThis. This, this and all of this.Business at scale doesn't have to be correct and bug-free, indeed it is terribly costly to pursue that. All you need for success is to be better than your competitors, and the fitness of that "betterness" is still not even correctness, but a more general combination of marketing, new user adoption, existing customer satisfaction, and (possibly last on the list) actual technical capability.It is a very difficult concept for an engineer to grasp, but there are some problems that are indeed, almost exclusively, a marketing problem in nature. Consider this possibility when you encounter a challenging idea such as this!Tim

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 04:06:38 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 15, 2019, 03:57:32 pmIts something that separates the mediocre engineers for the good engineers. Given a problem the mediocre engineer tends to face it head on and encounter massive issues. The really good engineer takes a broader view and finds a cheap and simple solution. A classic example is people hating the time they spent in elevators in early very tall buildings. The mediocre engineers looked for implausible motor systems to speed the lift up. The smart engineers just tried to make the lift cars less claustrophobic with mirrors and other more open decor.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 04:20:09 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 15, 2019, 03:23:46 pmWe may never know, because to her it was more important to be effective than to be correct.

author: hwj-d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 04:23:49 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 15, 2019, 03:57:32 pmThat's al right, but in a manageable internal market.This is a completely new situation of worldwide global datamining. This "market" isn't a market as we are accustomed to him. From the outset, these handful of players have been able to monopolise themselves almost outside competition to such an extent that they are unassailable for the individual.

author: grbk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 04:52:10 pm
content: Doesn't sound like anyone here read the article or context surrounding the quote...She is not referring to engineering or business decisions. She's referring to how she chooses to interact with coworkers. She chooses to adjusts her behavior and mannerisms in order to achieve the outcomes she wants ("be effective") rather than act without considering how others perceive her (in this case "be right," considering the context). A specific example she uses is talking in a lower register than her natural voice, because research apparently shows that people are more convinced by lower voices (but the specifics are beside the point). While she would rather not alter her voice (she considers that to be "wrong"), she's more effective if she does lower her voice.I think most people, whether or not they realize it or admit to it, often choose to behave carefully or bite their tongue once in a while in order to get what they want... eyes on the prize and all that. That's what she's saying.

author: HoracioDos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 05:24:21 pm
content: Quote from: grbk on February 15, 2019, 04:52:10 pmI didn't know that there was an article. I should learn from people who avoid to comment this kind of threads.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 06:24:46 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 15, 2019, 03:57:32 pmYou don't necessarily have to be better than your competitors to win. We tried a strategy of releasing the minimal viable product, defined as it must do just one thing the customer needs, so that we could be FIRST. Then, you just need to be responsive to your paying customers to give them what they ask for. It did not work that great for the engineers and the team is still struggling with it. Marketing is having to face it now, too...Yeah, shortcuts worked when I was kid too. Cleaning your room meant stuffing everything under the bed or in the closet and sweeping the dirt under the rug. It was very effective at increasing playtime, in the moment, but you still had to pay in the end...

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 08:43:57 pm
content: I'm sure she did not invent that statement, but picked it up in some management book.But if you are working in the banking industry, maybe look for a different book?(For us engineers, it's the perfect quote if you are in the business of designing life support equipment and such...)

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 09:16:12 pm
content: https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbescoachescouncil/2017/10/12/whats-more-important-to-you-being-effective-or-being-right/https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-social-side-depression/201011/would-you-rather-be-right-or-effectivehttps://www.americanexpress.com/en-us/business/trends-and-insights/articles/is-it-more-important-to-be-efficient-or-effective/etc. etc.Not a very original management quote, it seems...

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 11:31:38 pm
content: Quote from: imo on February 15, 2019, 01:55:13 pmIndeed. The "more important to be effective than to be right" is a close cousin to the following IMO: "A manager's job is not to make the right decisions. It's to make decisions and do what needs to be done to make them right." Have heard that from seasoned CEOs.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 12:25:35 am
content: Quote from: madires on February 15, 2019, 02:51:05 pmThe job/thing doesn't work unless you get it right.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 12:27:37 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 15, 2019, 09:12:21 pmIrony overload in this case!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 12:40:24 am
content: Quote from: metrologist on February 15, 2019, 06:24:46 pmThis has spread like cancer through the software industry and as a consumer it sucks. Win10 and in particular MS Edge is a shining example, when it shipped it was a half baked steaming pile of crap that made a terrible first impression. Many other products you have to update the firmware right out of the box before it will even work. Sometimes you're expected to buy the product based on promises of what it will do eventually rather than what it is capable of doing now. Sorry but I don't go for that, I've seen too many products languish, never getting promised features. If I'm going to pay money for something I expect it to be done, fully ready to use out of the box, future updates can be nice but they should never be needed for it to do everything it says it will do.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 01:17:41 am
content: Ahh, good to see that it's not just Government agencies who have inept and out-of-touch executives, the private sector is just as badly managed.I deal with this kind of crap on an almost weekly basis; Executives and upper management who literally have no idea how a company/department/organisation is run. I work in a highly technical and specialised area but I often wonder if our executives think we are just a part of our IT department's help desk team, it's all just computers and shit... right?They are too focussed on statistics and metrics which either mean nothing or are faulty to begin with, but some how "on paper" it paints them in a good light.The organisation I work for has gone through some significant changes in the past 12 months, which directly impacts my job and how well (I've been ordered to) do it. Instead of producing excellent results but taking care and time to do it, they want quick and dirty results in less time. The end product is mediocre but "good enough" and we churn through more "jobs" in any given time frame (bigger numbers = better, right?). Ultimately, the organisation fails at its primary charter, internal "clients" are left dissatisfied and a middle-manager gets promoted.I'm wondering if this person at PayPal has been put in this position merely to fulfil some kind of "gender equity" quota?

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 01:50:04 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 16, 2019, 12:40:24 amI do not think we would do it again, but there was a reason Marketing had to come back to the table. This was entirely upper management thought.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 02:01:13 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 16, 2019, 12:40:24 amMost of you know this already - this is just probably my "reminiscing the old days..." or ranting about the new.The idea of "get it out first and fix it later" was practically consider malpractice in the late 70's. That Microsoft treats its entire user-base as alpha/beta testers was the joke of the day in the 80's. But Microsoft continue to expand and then dominates the market. That probably became the driving force and made the idea of "deliver first, fix later" ubiquitous and made that the norm.There were big penalties in delivering bad product - there was a saying "a bug in the shop cost X to fix, a bug delivered to the customer cost 100X to fix." The cost of shipping out stuff to hundreds (or thousands) of clients and the cost of visiting customer sites to apply the fix kept software producers honest (so to speak). They need to deliver stuff that works or it would cost years worth of profit to fix one bad roll out. The internet took that cost away. So, "delivery first, fix later" is now the norm. Getting to market first is far more valuable to the project managers and company executives.I can understand... Stock owners are not kind when a CEO has to announce "well, our new XYZ is going to be delayed 3 months..." It is far easier to just "deliver first, fix later." Even Wall Street reporters "understand" and chalk it up as "they are ironing out the issues, every new product has that". That attitude is no help in keeping the industry honest.I absolutely agree with "A good idea on-time is far better than a great idea too-late." I could understand "It is pointless to be right if you aretotallyineffective." Totally ineffective means whatever right idea it is, the total-ineffectiveness prevents the right idea from becoming a reality. I hope that is what she means... Sure hate to have yet another effective guy destroying good stuff effectively.

author: igendel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 02:33:23 am
content: Quote from: grbk on February 15, 2019, 04:52:10 pmExactly. Years ago, there was a rather successful campaign in my country for safer driving, the motto of which translates roughly to "On the road, don't be right, be smart". The message was that if a road accident does happen and you're in it, it doesn't really matter that you had right of way, or the green light or whatever, and that the other driver did wrong. YOU still got hurt. "Being right" on the road, i.e. following the rules blindly, is not a replacement for situational awareness and taking other people's actions into account.So, as fun as it is to take things out of context, I don't see what's the big issue with what she said. This thread perhaps says more about engineers than about managers...

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 02:53:06 am
content: Quote from: igendel on February 16, 2019, 02:33:23 amI think being right is just as important as having situational awareness. They come hand-in-hand. You can't drive a car defensively without both. This is why they don't design autonomous vehicles to simply follow the rules and nothing more. Rules are there to ensure everyone is on a similar playing field, awareness is a skill which allows you to deal with the unexpected or those who decide not to follow the rules.When it comes to crashes, I think being "right" is also paramount in ensuring your financials are covered, particularly if you have expensive medical bills.Being "right" ensures your ass is covered.Being situationally aware ensures you can take appropriate action when someone else is at fault.

author: igendel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 02:59:38 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 16, 2019, 02:53:06 amAs with what started this thread, the whole point is that one shouldn't interpret such statements in the most literal, concrete way that first pops to mind. Now, I could continue to argue that I amright, but since it's almost 5AM here, it'll be moreeffectivefor me to go to sleep, so...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 04:07:19 am
content: Quote from: igendel on February 16, 2019, 02:33:23 amIt does indeed, because an engineer (me) posted it because I (we engineers) instantly see how hilarious this sort of statement can be.They (PayPal) are the ones that highlighted and posted it out of context, even if they linked to the article. They failed to see the possible hilarity in highlighting such a statement.We be fast and they be slow...https://youtu.be/g4IZiRvsO54?t=55

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 04:49:00 am
content: The link to the context was right in the tweet, and you couldn't be arsed to glance at it.One of the things I've learned over the years on the internet is it's better to disregard context for the lolz than to be right.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 06:47:02 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on February 16, 2019, 02:01:13 amThe irony is that old Microsoft stuff everyone used to complain about is very high quality compared to what is the norm today across the industry. One of the worst things to happen to software is the assumption of always-on, high speed internet access enabling rapid and frequent deployment of patches and updates. The attitude has become "don't worry if something breaks, we'll just push out a fix in the next release 2 weeks form now" except new features almost always take priority over all but the most severe bugs. Consumers are being conditioned to accept shit quality, frequent updates are spun as a feature, always have the latest and most secure, nevermind that most of the security bugs that do get fixed should never have escaped to the field. The entire industry has been in a race to the bottom. Even Apple, once known for their highly polished software has dropped dramatically, the OS on my current iPhone is so buggy that even basic features like reminders cannot be relied on to work. If Steve Jobs were still around heads would be rolling.Nothing is ever done anymore, everything is a work in progress, a perpetual beta, software as a service is just an excuse to half ass everything and not adequately test anything and it's extremely frustrating. I absolutely refuse to be the QA for a product I've paid for.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 09:15:13 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 15, 2019, 11:31:38 pmThat is a close relative to this one:-"Something has to be done!""This is something---- we'll do this!"

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 09:54:49 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 16, 2019, 02:53:06 amBut there are situations where breaking the rules i.e. being wrong is safer. For example, going into the bus lane (which incidentally carries a fine in the UK) because some other idiot is performing a dangerous overtaking manoeuvre and would otherwise hit you head on. You may be fined, but that can be challenged in court and even if you still have to pay, it's better than being killed or left with life changing injuries.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 09:57:57 am
content: Quote from: ajb on February 16, 2019, 04:49:00 amYou assumed incorrectly.I did read the article and knew the context, but I still thought it was a hilarious tweet.QuoteOne thing I've learned is don't post and highlight your own stuff out of context, because people might find it funny and quote you forever more.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 12:04:26 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 16, 2019, 12:25:35 amEngineers aim for perfection, but there's a difference between something working ok-ish or working great. Often you have to go for the ok-ish because of time/money constraints.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 12:19:21 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2019, 12:45:08 pmAfter some thinking it actually is a pretty good quote. I read it as: "as a boss you better listen to your people rather than trying to be a know-it-all-boss and screw things up".

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 12:20:26 pm
content: Quote from: madires on February 16, 2019, 12:04:26 pmThat is almost the definition of engineering, we don't aim for perfection.Nor do we "adjust our behavior and mannerisms"That is why engineers are generally kept well away from customers or anyone else who might not like what they hear.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 12:38:40 pm
content: Most of the time you aim for " good enough" and "close enough" and leave it at that. If there is time make it look better, and knock off the bigger splinters, but so long as the outside is nice looking, and the only ones who see inside are those who service it, nobody will notice.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 03:12:13 pm
content: And what would be your goal when you would be free of any constraints?

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 04:05:05 pm
content: Looks like being factually correct is not important to a certain class of people. Here's another prominent public figure recently with a similar view.And Thomas Sowell cutting to the point, as usual.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 09:08:43 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on February 16, 2019, 04:05:05 pmIt would be interesting to see the context of that remark. This thread has illustrated quite nicely how important context is, when quoting people. For example, when telling a white lie, it's morally right to be factually incorrect.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 09:55:13 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 16, 2019, 09:08:43 pmSome would say diplomacy eliminates the need for white lies.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 11:04:18 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 16, 2019, 09:08:43 pmIt's not even a quote, it's at best a paraphrasing that deliberately changes the clear sentiment of her actual remark, which was that people tend to pick apart details for the sake of finding a "gotcha" instead of dealing with the larger--and actually important--issues at hand. Sound familiar?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 11:42:59 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 16, 2019, 09:54:49 amCorrect, for which there would be exemptions for. For example, here, you could drive in a bus lane legally to, avoid an obstruction, avoid a collision or for some other emergency.Ordinarily, it would be an offence to drive in the bus lane.You also haven't done anything illegal until a court convicts you. A traffic ticket is simply an allegation of an offence.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 04:43:23 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 16, 2019, 11:42:59 pmyou've done something illegal when you do something that's, you know. . . not legal. A court ruling just makes it official.Related: we have a part-timer who's finishing up law school, and according to one of their professors, the difference between prosecuting white collar crime and prosecuting regular crime is that instead of trying to prove that the defendant did it, your trying to prove that 'it' was a crime!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 06:30:54 am
content: Quote from: ajb on February 16, 2019, 11:04:18 pmAnd the funny part is it's her own company PayPal who did this! They are the ones who picked it out and put it in a prominent tweet with the context hidden away in the article. That's why I tweeted it, I found it hilarious that they did this.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 06:33:40 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 16, 2019, 11:42:59 pmCorrect. That's why the ticket comes with the option of either voluntarily paying the fine or going to court to have a judge decide if you've done something "illegal".

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 09:32:59 am
content: NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.An optional additional explanation is:

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 10:33:06 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2019, 06:30:54 amTerraHertz is talking about a different person than your original post: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a US Democrat. I've put the picture in the quote to save confusion. No doubt this was done by the Republicans. This kind of bollocks is rife on both sides. Note that I'm not from the US so support neither party.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 11:39:52 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on February 17, 2019, 09:32:59 amI wondered how long it would be before someone made a sexist comment. The fact she's female is irrelevant. Anyway, I doubt this is her fault.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 12:27:46 pm
content: @Electro_Detective, I find your comment disgusting.Were you drunk or something?I hope the moderators can delete this, including the subsequent quote.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 12:40:45 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on February 17, 2019, 12:27:46 pmElectro_Detective's always producing ugly and stupid crap like this. Don't like it? Use the ignore feature. Although, given the fact that nowadays we have an effective "ban by vote" system in place by Simon, it's going to eventually happen, so maybe click that "report" button to make it happen faster?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 01:54:18 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 17, 2019, 11:39:52 amhttps://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/coaching-sessions-critical-success-paypal-australia-md-230921948.html?guccounter=1Yahaoo finance did a puff piece on her, she said some wanky MBA CEO waffle that sounded great, Yahoo editor highlighted the offending quote because it sounded profound, then marketing at PaypalAU thoguht it was profound too and tweeted the quote. So apart from the interview, I doubt she was in the loop on it.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 02:02:19 pm
content: Thanks, Simon and Dave, for cleaning up!

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 06:14:58 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2019, 01:54:18 pmYeah that article is pure puff! I just followed the link and finished reading it. For an article published under Yahoo Finance, I'd expect it to talk about leadership or financial performance. There is not a thing in that article about financial or leadership performance. The article spend too much ink focusing on being female CEO - who cares. I much rather see all that ink on voice coaching devoted instead to talking about how good or bad her leadership has been for Paypal AU. How's her executive retention? How's her employee feedbacks? Etc. etc.Yeah, woman do change their voice to sound different. Yup, Elizabeth Homes (Theranos CEO, charge and indicted awaiting trial) lower her voice too, so how does that made her a good leader?Fact is, anyone who thinks would modulate their voice - choice of tone is as important as choice of words. That is just part of the delivery.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 08:08:14 pm
content: Thomas J Watson, CEO of IBM for about 40 years, had a lot of thoughts on performance including:"If you want to increase your success rate, double your failure rate."https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/thomas_j_watsonIt's ok to be wrong, just do it quickly and move on.-- meI have no idea what she intended but effective could actually be better than being right. Being right usually takes too long to learn. Just make a decent attempt and do it quickly.One of the larger companies I worked for never did post mortems on cost savings projects. You had to show some kind of payback during the proposal stage but after the project was complete, nobody was going to go back and check the actual savings. You win some and you lose some but you lose them all if they are never proposed because somebody is worried about blowback.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 08:15:48 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 17, 2019, 08:08:14 pmI'm not clear if you suggesting that not figuring out how well something turned out is a good or a bad thing. My experience is when port mortems are not officially done, any quick and dirty unofficial assessment can clearly show the outcome was usually bad. You can't learn and improve in an environment that doesn't analyse outcomes.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2019, 09:50:49 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 17, 2019, 08:08:14 pmExactly. Learn from your mistakes. I've heard it said anyone who doesn't make mistakes does nothing.I think she intended her comments to be about managing people or projects. Where differing points of view and priorities and often a lack of complete information make being right time consuming and expensive. Or not even possible to be certain of anyway. You just need to get people pointed in one direction and if you're effective then you'll not be so far off that minor corrections are sufficient to get a result good enough. You'll always look back and see something you could have done differently and/or better. That's how you learn and build experience.I remember a quote from a CEO once."This is low hanging fruit, it can be picked now. We must eschew analysis paralysis, risk aversion, turf battles and non fact based decision making." - Frank Blount CEO Telstra 1993Thinking about it a little more I also concluded that people who emphatically insist they alone are right , see things more clearly and know and understand more deeply and yet cannot communicate these to others are what she calls ineffective. And I'd agree.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2019, 12:30:30 am
content: Quote from: coppice on February 17, 2019, 08:15:48 pmI'm saying that the project guy might want to look at the results and if the target is missed, perhaps the results are still adequate and the project is done and over with. Or we can wait for a perfect solution while missing a pretty good solution. Just do something! Even if it is wrong, it's better than doing nothing. What is not going to happen is some detailed analysis by external bean counters. That kind of thing stops all progress. Nobody wants to go to some kind of donkey barbeque because the payback slid out a couple of years. The company will be in business long enough to get their money back plus the expense reductions. Want to eliminate risk taking? Make it painful!I was always of the 'good enough' persuasion.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2019, 12:44:14 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 16, 2019, 09:15:13 amNot quite. Although it can lead to "actionitis" (and it does in some companies), this does not directly equate to just doing anything at random.Yes, this kind of phrase sounds usually infuriating the first time you hear it as an engineer. We can't help thinking that any decision must be well-informed and as right as it can be.But it actually makes some sense. It's all about the decision process, and you start realizing this as you move up the ladder. In many cases, making a decision, even if not the best one, is better than not making any. The absence of decision (even if we can't seem to find any good decision, or need a lot of time to find it) is a powerful team demotivator.Of course like in any other matter, extremes are never good. The urge to make decisions is no excuse for not thinking, listening, observing and evaluating. What it says though and is related to the topic's quote is that being effective starts with accepting not to be right at times, accepting to decide without all needed information, and still move on.Admittedly, people advocating this while having made inexcusably bad decisions look a lot less legitimate, but the point still holds.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2019, 01:19:24 am
content: It's what they teach pilots in regards to dealing with emergency situations. Not making a decision can mean your window of opportunity is lost or even lead to dangerous paralysis. Sometimes you don't have the information you need for a proper assessment and in those cases it's better to just make a decision and move on to the next problem, and deal with the consequences as they come.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2019, 03:58:20 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 18, 2019, 01:19:24 amNot making a decision is almost certain to end up in disaster. Recovering from a wrong decision gives more insight into the problem.I spent most of my career as a projects guy. I never spent much time on real engineering, I subbed it out to people who liked doing that kind of work.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2019, 04:37:06 am
content: So anyway it's fun to get into a tizzy about how asinine a statement like that is.However, don't get too comfortable and stuck in your engineer's ways and miss the situation.She is a manager. For those of you who have spent enough time in a corporate organization, certain kinds of managers will design by various combinations dictate, specsmanship, or aversion.Dictate: Management declares that a feature is needed. Usually several features, some of which are mutually exclusive. The classic example is "Quality, Speed, Price. Pick Two." However, they inevitably pick all three, or even four. In the design meeting the manager is right; the engineer is wrong, and all four of Quality, Speed, and Price are agreed to.Specsmanship: "OMG! ABC Corporation's XYZ 80 has 4 Encabulators! That means we need 8 Encabulators for our next design!" When in reality you only need two. In the design meeting the manager is right; the engineer is wrong, and 8 Encabulators are designed in.Aversion: This one is more subtle. A manager makes a horizontal move into a product line they have only cursory experience with. "Mr. A comes to us from Company B with 5 years of experience making soda pop! He will be perfect for our computer line!" Yep, that always works well. It takes too long to get up to speed in the new industry, product line, distributor relationship, etc. By virtue of his authority in the corporate structure his decisions hold sway, but because he knows he is out of his league he relies on whatever advice comes his way. Usually through some outside channel. "You know, your product line really needs aTurboEncabulator, not one of those regular old Encabulators like ABC makes." In the design meeting the manager is right; the engineer is wrong, and theTurboEncabulator is designed in.This is where "It's more important to be effective than to be right" would be valuable for managers to keep in mind. In this arena, "being right" means that their decision is the one; that is what gets agreed to. Alternatively, "being effective" is about making sure the various business units, definitely including engineering, have a fair and understood say in features, schedule, budget, etc.Being right is about having authority.Being effective is about achieving a realistic goal.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 10:25:27 am
content: Back from a few days off and discover I'm the bad guy at this post"It's more important to be effective than to be right"I believe it's just the usual corporate drivel for starters, and or excuses for incompetencyand or being not quite up to the task yet and spouting off corporate drivel to keep ones job,and has nothing to do with the sex of the spouterDoes either 'effective' or 'right' mean getting the job done correctly and client satisfaction aka repeat business? which is what people should be concerned with,not feelgood corpogab and 'image' BSBTW LADIES and gents, I'm not sexist by any stretch of the imagination,if the ladies are up to any task, heaven help any clown/s in my presence putting them down or being 'blokey' just because they canApologies if my previous comment upset the reporters,and since it's been deleted, I can't peruse, explain, or withdraw what part was apparently not quite kosherIf my comment was referring to a male, would it have caused the same ruckus ?And if I may ask politely, just what ratio of females are members at EEV ?I think I have come across a handful of ladies at EEV, surely there must be a quite a few more and or why the cloak n dagger?We don't bite, well I don't afaik

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 11:09:05 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on February 28, 2019, 10:25:27 am16:1 according to the forum stats.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/stats/I would have though at least an order of magnitude lower. And if you went by forum posts I would have said 2 orders of magnitude lower possibly nearer 3.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 05:51:53 pm
content: According to the forum stats even you don't have that profile field filled out

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 11:26:19 pm
content: Quote from: magic on February 28, 2019, 05:51:53 pmI didn't even think of that.I remember filling out the country flag field many years ago but never bothered with the rest. I think I did timezone somewhere.If both genders choose to fill the gender field to the same degree it still should be an indication. Surely there are enough forum members to get a reasonable sample size. But I still can't say a single female members name springs to mind. Maybe I need to pay more attention.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 11:42:24 pm
content: Quote from: magic on February 28, 2019, 05:51:53 pmMaybe he prefers that people assume his gender ;-)

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2019, 01:21:02 am
content: Filling fields in is a bit like removing gravel from my shoe. Just when the irritation from not doing it compels me.But we're drifting off topic. Not sure that's a bad thing in this thread though.