FLIR E4 - E8 useful for PCBs - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: trevwhite
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2014, 09:06:48 am
content: Does anyone have any experience of using one of these cameras for heat profiles on circuit boards? From my initial look at them the fixed focal length makes it difficult to get close enough to get any real detail from a PCB.Does anyone have any images of circuit boards taken with one of these FLIR cameras?ThanksTrev

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 26, 2014, 09:14:22 am
content: You need an add-on lens and/or adjust the lens manually using the right tool:http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:197580

author: trevwhite
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2014, 09:24:16 am
content: Looks interesting, so someone must have some pics then. This could be a really useful tool if so. I am really tempted to buy one but I just want to see what kind of results I can get before throwing all that money at it.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2014, 12:44:12 pm
content: Look at Mike's videos. He's used one on a few PCBs before.

author: trevwhite
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2014, 01:03:09 pm
content: Okay, thank you for that. Just looked again and at the end of the video he does use it on boards. It seems okay kinda. I was hoping I would be able to measure actual temperatures of different parts of a board.Also he demonstrates that the vertical alignment is out so pictures of a board with temperatures would actually be a bit mis-aligned.Be interesting to know what happens when Mike uses the lenses he ordered and maybe the resolution upgrade helps?

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2014, 04:43:25 pm
content: Alignment of the MSX is off, but the IR is obviously correct. So, yes, you can easily use it with components on a PCB (I have both the lens adjust tool and the ZnSe tool).Adjusting the lens is the best option if you want accurate readings since you aren't adding an attenuator (the ZnSe lens) in front of the stock lens.Adjusting the lens will easily allow you to measure down to 0603 size components which should be more than adequate. This is THE reason I purchased the E4 (mod to E8). Works great.I've posted pics before of PCB measurements in the huge E4 teardown thread, but here's a few to check out. First pair is finding an internally shorted cap (IR image and one from a camera for reference). The cap is 1210 sized.The 3rd pic is a different board. You can see the 0603 size components (3 in a vertical row), just to the right/below of the SP1 marker.The key to taking good pictures with the closeup adjusted lens is to have a holder to be able to move/set the E4 in the correct position. Hand hold is not as easy due to the depth of field and the holder allows easier monitoring and taking of multiple pictures during runtime.cheers,george.

author: trevwhite
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2014, 04:57:06 pm
content: Thanks for the pics, they look great.

author: cyr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2014, 07:24:11 pm
content: Here are a few examples taken with my E4 and a 50mm ZnSe lens. The components are SO8, SOT23 etc.

author: trevwhite
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 05:41:05 pm
content: Pictures are really great. How accurate do you reckon the measurements are? It seems that these cameras need to be calibrated and the materials they are measuring make a difference.

author: cyr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 07:13:47 pm
content: I did a quick check on a 20x20mm plastic BGA part. A thermocouple measured 47.5 C while the E4++ showed approx 50 C with or without the lens. Close enough for me, and the thermocouple is likely reading slightly low anyway since it won't have perfect contact with the chip.The thing you really need to look out for is anything shiny/metallic, you will be reading the reflected temperature of the room rather than the actual object. On PCBs this is a good thing because the solder pads and component legs stand out well making it easier to navigate. Can be an issue with heatsinks and such though...

author: trevwhite
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 07:24:48 pm
content: Well there probably isn't any stock of these in the UK any more. Maybe that will stop me crippling my finances to buy one!

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 09:18:05 pm
content: Here's a closeup image taken of a SOT23 transistor on a tiny substrate if that helps?You can see the transistor is the hotspot and you can see the thermal gradients across the SOT23 package. i.e. it is hottest in the centre of the transistor.

author: trevwhite
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2014, 11:32:17 am
content: That looks brilliant! Amazing resolution! What is your setup to take that image?

author: Ivan7enych
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2014, 07:09:32 am
content: Hello,I've bought a small ZnSe lens, 12mm diameter and 100mm focal distance.I prefer 12mm instead of larger 20mm to place it as close as possible to the original lens, to make smaller vignetting and sharpness on corners.100mm focal is quite enough for me, 0805 smd parts are easily visible.Lens holder has been made on my home lathe.

author: Marphy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 14, 2014, 11:38:01 am
content: Quote from: Ivan7enych on April 14, 2014, 07:09:32 amVery impressive! The lens holder looks fantastic. Can you name the source you got the lens from (eBay seller or the like)?Best regards,Marphy

author: tjb1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2014, 11:59:49 am
content: Quote from: georges80 on February 26, 2014, 04:43:25 pmHow are you getting spot measurements and averages?

author: Ivan7enych
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2014, 12:39:52 pm
content: Quote from: Marphy on April 14, 2014, 11:38:01 amThank you, there's nothing extraordinary, just usual lathe work. I can make drawing if somebody wants to make it.I've got the lens here -http://www.ebay.com/itm/120921418837?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

author: tjb1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2014, 01:20:29 pm
content: Quote from: Ivan7enych on April 14, 2014, 12:39:52 pmAre you interested in selling those casings? I'd like to buy one or maybe a few.

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2014, 04:13:36 pm
content: Quote from: tjb1 on April 14, 2014, 11:59:49 amFlir tools.cheers,george.

author: Ivan7enych
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2014, 05:26:17 am
content: Quote from: tjb1 on April 14, 2014, 01:20:29 pmI can make may be 5-10 casings, and sent it to you or other people, interested in it. Though I have no experience of selling something aboard and using paypal to receive money.Is 12$ reasonable price for the casing? (without shipping cost).

author: Marphy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 15, 2014, 08:32:57 am
content: Quote from: Ivan7enych on April 15, 2014, 05:26:17 amI would take three of them instantly!

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2014, 09:20:10 am
content: Quote from: trevwhite on February 26, 2014, 09:06:48 amSo far I've used my E4 to repair three items that I otherwise probably would not have been able to. I've also used it on maybe a dozen other repair jobs where it's saved a load of fault finding time.I use the focus tool which I had 3d printed, this gives enough clarity to see temperature differences on SO packages.So yeah with a focus tool and/or lens the Ex is fantastic for PCB work.

author: tjb1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2014, 11:34:05 am
content: Quote from: Ivan7enych on April 15, 2014, 05:26:17 amYes I would be very interested in 3-4 depending on what the shipping would be. This would be the casing and nut right?

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2014, 03:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: Ivan7enych on April 14, 2014, 07:09:32 amHow do you remove the holder? It doesn't look like there is much to grab on to.

author: Teledog
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2014, 06:04:29 am
content: Have a 12mm ZnSe lens (80mmFL) here, it kinda "plonks" right into the E4 stepped /tapered lens casing.Check the surface reflection to make sure the {very slight} convex faces out.Seems to work well if one doesn't jar it, had to tap the cam slightly to have it fall out.Worked quite well for a preliminary test.Yes, use a soft cloth below the lens when popping it out, and of course, wear cotton gloves while handling!

author: Ivan7enych
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2014, 07:57:58 am
content: Quote from: edavid on April 15, 2014, 03:50:02 pmExternal part is 6mm height. I can make longer, may be 10mm to make it easier to handle. But not too long to prevent vignetting of the image.Quote from: tjb1 on April 15, 2014, 11:34:05 amIt has 2 parts - the ring with external thread M16x0.75mm, and the casing. I store it in a plastic box which I receive with the lens.I still don't know the price of shipping from Russia to US or other countries, let me find it out.At weekends I can make 10 items, I hope it will be enough for you guys.

author: Ivan7enych
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 06:14:33 am
content: It took a bit longer, than I expected. I've made the lens holders a bit longer and added knurling on outer face. Last picture is the result, and 4 pictures are from the middle of the process.If somebody wants that lens holder, please PM me your address, I'll find out the shipping cost and reply you.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 06:38:01 am
content: Quote from: Ivan7enychThey look very nice, I'll definitely grab a couple (send you details tonight). I hope you're covering costs and at leastsome labour. We appreciate you doing this for us dummies :-)Would you consider also doing a version for 20mm lenses? Any issues with optics? I'd take 2 of those as well.

author: Ivan7enych
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 01:27:04 pm
content: Let me summarize,Marphy - sent 3 pieces.hs3 - sent 1Sparky - sent 1edavid - sent 1tjb1 - reserved 3-4digsys - reserved 2I see, all 11 items are reserved now.Quote from: digsys on April 22, 2014, 06:38:01 amI think on next weekends I'll have free time to make it.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 01:46:58 pm
content: Quote from: Ivan7enychPM sent. Thanks for making the offer.

author: Ivan7enych
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 02:56:05 am
content: digsysThe 2 casings for 20mm lens are ready. I can send it on monday.tjb1doesn't respond to my messages, so I think 3 holders for 12mm lens are available for somebody else.

author: DJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 09:55:31 am
content: Message sent

author: Kay
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 04:55:18 am
content: Hi,I sent the lens adjuster tool (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:197580) to a CNC house in China, they are asking if the measurements are in mm or inch? if anyone can advise, thanksby the way, they are asking 35 USD / PCS for CNC, polished.

author: tjb1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 05:04:34 pm
content: Quote from: Kay on May 05, 2014, 04:55:18 amI would assume MM since most of the printers/slicers use MM but it would be fairly obvious as to which it is.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 12:27:45 am
content: @3Roomlab,I can only comment on my method of selecting a close-up lens.... no maths neededAs I previously stated in another thread, I first came across the use of a biconvex close-up lens when repairing video presenters (document cameras) a couple of years ago. The cameras were standard Sony modules that could not focus close enough for the document imaging applications. The manufacturer solved this by fitting a removable No.2 Close-up Lens. The Focal Length (FL) of that lens was the perfect distance for the camera to focus correctly on a document 40cm away. This was effectively providing the camera with compensation for its long sightedness.... a bit like fitting reading glasses to it ! I tried that as well.....a set of cheap reading glasses had the same effect as the No.2 CU lens.I used that example to track down suitable lenses for my Fire fighting Thermal cameras. These are fixed focus and designed for distance working of more than 2m. I found ZnSe and Gallium Arsenide lenses would work at the required thermal camera wavelength, with ZnSe more common, and with higher transmittance figures. Fortunately CO2 laser cutting machines use such ZnSe lenses with nice short focal lengths....perfect for close up work on PCB's. At $30 delivered they were affordable so I bought some to play with. On arrival I placed a 20mm diameter 100mm FL ZnSE lens in front of my PM695 cameras lens and noted the excellent performance. I then tried it in front of the ARGUS 2 fire fighters camera and its performed equally as well. I found that the closer to the objective lens that you could place it, the better. You have to also consider the dimensions and FOV of the objective. If the ZnSe lens is moved too far away from the objective, the FOV will exceed the lens diameter with negative effects on the image produced.When I bought my E4 I just placed my 100mm FL ZnSe lens in front of the E4 lens and all worked well. I shared the news with this forum and I remain impressed with the excellent lens holders that have been designed by clever people and now the aluminium design that we see here.... Superb ! I have been using 19mm and 20mm diameter lenses to ensure I didn't have FOV issues but as has been shown in this thread, a 12mm lens is possible and far more compact that my lens holders.There may be some maths that may be applied to the use of these lenses but I just did it by test. The No.2 lens on the document camera was the same diameter as the objective and around 5mm from it, so Sony seemed to think closer is betterAurora

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 12:54:11 pm
content: Hi,I wanted to thank Ivan for the link to the 12mm lens and for showing his lensholder which I basically copied with some minor modifications:I made it out of black plastic instead of aluminium and made it so that the lens is a somewhat tight pressfit into the housing avoiding the need for the keeper-ring.The difference with/without the additional lens is quite remarkable as can be seen in the attached, thermal only, images. They show a couple of 0805 resistors on a piece of strip board. The distance from the fase of the E4 to the stripboard was ~80mm. Without the lens you can see that "there's heat" coming from the board but with the lens it's quite possible to distinguish one resistor from the other (yes, they are alternating values).Thanks Ivan and everyone else contributing to the overall E4 experience!