Can a neon sign transformer with an output of 12000V and 30mA kill you? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Florin
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:08:52 pm
content: I just saw a videohttps://youtu.be/EOVpldbaGq4?t=24swhere this transformer is limited to 30mA and I was wandering if it can kill you.(PS: It's my first post and i'm not sure if i choose the correct category).

author: dfmischler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:17:26 pm
content: If you grabbed one lead in each hand while it was running it could very well kill you, if it can actually achieve 30 mA in that situation. Some people say that it "should" take more current to kill you, but there are a lot of variables including your own medical condition.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:31:00 pm
content: Assume YES unless you have absolute proof that this is not the case.

author: Florin
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:41:01 pm
content: But, for example, if a transformer will be limited to, let's say, 1 - 10 mA or even lower it will be safe regardless of the output voltage?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:49:07 pm
content: Quote from: dfmischler on February 01, 2016, 08:17:26 pmYes, there's a risk of death and serious injury such as burns and damage to the heart and nervous system.An RCD my trip at 30mA but the current doesn't flow for long.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:51:54 pm
content: It always depends on your attitude and training to electrical safety. I was always taught that any electrical device operating above 50V is dangerous unless proved or labelled otherwise.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 09:04:02 pm
content: That's about 360W, so well into seriously dangerous depending on duration of contact

author: dexters_lab
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 09:12:51 pm
content: Quote from: Florin on February 01, 2016, 08:41:01 pmsafe? i would not call it safe by any means, even a few mA at 12kv will burn you at least

author: xygor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 09:35:12 pm
content: Yes, in several ways.If it electrocutes you, a bigger one could resuscitate you.If you ingest it, it could kill you.If it falls on you, it could kill you.If you collide with one, it could kill you.If you stole it, the owner could kill you.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:28:39 am
content: I just wouldn't tempt fate. I'd give 12kV some respect.Even if you get a zap that won't kill you, it is still uncomfortable and can cause you to instinctively react. That reaction won't be a well thought out movement and you could do something that results in more dire consequences.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:33:04 am
content: From the Wik:Quote

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:41:22 am
content: Quote from: Florin on February 01, 2016, 08:08:52 pmHiHere's the trick that you may see:You take the neon driver transformer and convert it's output to RF (with a Tesla Coil). You get marvelous looking arcs. The current can be quite high. Since it's RF, your body reacts differently to it than to DC or low frequency AC. You can still get burns (energy -> heat). You don't get the same interaction with the nervous system. It's a great way to do dramatic demo's. It's also a good way to give people the wrong impression about electrical safety.30 ma at a couple of KV (DC or low freq AC) will knock you across the room from the muscle contraction.(no it does not knock you, your muscles knock you, the result is the same and it hurts). Yes I have empirical data ...Bob

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 02:02:10 am
content: Oh and don't forget the lovely deep burns through the tissue where the arc has shot through. Those take very long time to heal and if they get infected because of the dead tissue deep in the muscle, you can end up with sepsis or an amputation.That is not a voltage to take on lightly, even if it was just 1-2mA and not 30.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 03:21:29 am
content: The following link implies that neon signs have killed at least one person, but probably not dozens and dozens. (It is interesting reading overall on the topic of electrical safety.)http://apps.ocfl.net/dept/county_admin/public_safety/risk/Construction_Workers_Getting_Electocuted.pdfAnecdotes from people on various forums (including this one) show that many people survive contact with these supplies. All mention that it was absolutely no fun. Very painful and frightening. My own experience with a lesser source confirms this.Seems like treating it as if it could kill you is a smart move. Even if you don't save your life you will avoid a lot of pain.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 03:28:46 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 02, 2016, 03:21:29 amThat has been said on many occasions about supplies that are eminently capable of killing. Any reader should not take that as an observation, not an invitation to regard them with any less respect.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 04:27:55 am
content: Yes. It can..

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 05:10:37 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 02, 2016, 03:28:46 amIndeed -- many people have survived Russian roulette... Obviously doesn't make it safe!

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 05:23:23 am
content: Reminds me of a story about someone who found a fallen 11KV cable draped over the road through a puddle. He figured as it wasn't arcing and making a noise it was dead, so they coiled it up by the side of the road.Power company showed up at that point, told him off and tested the cable. Yup live at full 11kV AC, seems that sort of voltage doesn't always kill you outright, can simply burn your insides up. Very worried driver left about 30 minutes later.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 05:39:10 am
content: Yes it's definitely lethal:The high voltage leads to ensure a very high current will go through a human, even with a pretty high resistance (ie, you don't need a wet hand as with lower voltages)By the way, if a transformer is marked "30mA", this is a continuous rating. In the case of a short circuit, (for example through the "low" resistance of an human), it will happily supply 10-50x more -> 300mA to 1,5A.To these lethal effects of electric current, at that high voltages and high current, the heat of the arc will burn flesh.A coworker of me had a hole through his hand with a source that was 5-10 mA @ 5KV AC. Material defect in an isolator. The arc got through his handDon't play with it.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 05:44:28 am
content: FYI, the guy in the video is really handling it unsafely :at 0:25 he is handling at the same time both sides of the high voltage output with no proper insulation:- The gloves are probably not rated for 12KV- The wires are 100V wires.... Just don't.- He is grabbing the wires. That's dangerous because in case of shock he will not be able to let go.- He is handling both sides at the same time. Don't do that.....no comment.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 07:26:32 am
content: Let's err on the side of caution on this one. 'Tasers' output ~1200VDC upon contact (unsure of the amperage). They have been known to kill people who have major heart defects, on drugs etc... etc... They call it a "less than lethal" option for a reason. A more politically correct description could be "It might kill you... just depends".

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 08:02:05 am
content: Quote from: f4eru on February 02, 2016, 05:39:10 amActually neon sign transformers are designed to limit their output current at the rated figure via core saturation. The neon tube will look like a low-resistance load once the gas ionizes, so an external series resistor would otherwise be necessary to keep from blowing a fuse, the tube, or the transformer. Even at only 30 mA, though, it's nothing to take lightly. People absolutely can be killed, and have been, by that much current.I think the scariest thing I've seen on YouTube was a video where some idiot connected a couple thousand 9V batteries in series without even the faintest recognition of the hazard of insulation breakdown. You can get 500 mA from a 9V battery for a few seconds.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 08:57:38 am
content: 30 to 50 mA is the typical current coming out of an ignition coil for cars at about 30 to 40 kV.And these cars usually have a big yellow warning label in the engine compartment, warning about the high voltage.There are probably thousands of people who have been zapped by such a high voltage current discharge but I am not aware of anyone who died from it. But this kind of discharge is just a small pulse, may be a milli second long and not comparable to a Neon transformer.12kV at 30mA might kill you, depending on how long it is applied and what condition the person is in.What I always find interesting is that science makes a difference between the gender, when it comes to current discharge in to the body.Enclosed are a few tables.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 09:08:04 am
content: Quote from: station240 on February 02, 2016, 05:23:23 amExplanation is likely step potential due to the wet ground, so basically no potential difference between the cable and the body of earth around him = no shock.

author: Srbel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 09:33:50 am
content: A few mA stops the hart.

author: StuUK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 09:55:59 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on February 01, 2016, 08:49:07 pmSurely that depends on the type, if it's isolated then how would the RCD trip?

author: Florin
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 10:34:27 am
content: I really want to thank you for all your answers, it looks like high voltage it's really dangerous even if the current is low

author: Srbel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 10:35:14 am
content: 30 mA is NOT low!

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 10:58:12 am
content: Quote from: Florin on February 02, 2016, 10:34:27 amNO! You obviously didn't read much of the answers you got.Again it IS that current that is dangerous, the voltage only makes sure that amount of current will flow even through a high resistance (body).As explained in posts above the problem is that 30mA is NOT low when it's going through a human, and is well into the "can cause heart failure" range.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 05:22:17 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 02, 2016, 07:26:32 amThis may be one of the best answers. The anecdotal evidance of survival indicates that a neon transformer is not be a reliable way to kill you. But unless you are suicidal you don't want to rely on this lack of reliability. Some previous responses to my previous answer indicate that some didn't understand the spirit of my answer. I don't think anyone knows the odds or understands all of the variables involved, but there is a very real chance of death from improper contact with these things, a very real chance of permanent injury and a 100% chance of an extremely unpleasant experience with improper contact with one of these transformers. That all adds up to treating them with respect and the appropriate safety measures. Based on my own experience that includes making absolutely certain that there are no unintended (sneak path) connections back to you or anyone else. At these voltages that can be an involved process.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 06:32:39 pm
content: The main problem that many of the people here do not understand is the nature of Neon transformers. They can produce currents many times their rated output under relative shorted conditions. The human body at those voltages would represent a very low impedance path and the impedance of the secondary would defiantly reduce the voltage across the load, in this case you, but would allow a current of many times the rated value. That rated value is assuming a very long neon tube of a relatively high breakdown voltage of the neon. Not the pure resistive load of a slushy bag of electrolytic salt water (The human body)

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 06:34:10 pm
content: HiThere actually *is* data on how much it takes to be *sure* you kill somebody. It was at the core of a debate between Edison (a DC power guy) and the AC power world. There is an enormous gap between what *might* kill you and what is *sure* to kill you.One of the biggest hazards is a lack of feedback about this sort of stuff. Long ago, it was pretty much impossible to do any circuit work without dealing with high voltage. Inevitably part of the learning process was "getting bit" by the circuit. Early on you learned techniques to avoid this happening. In the era of low voltage circuits, there is no feedback and no learning process. You simply do not develop the skills for high voltage work. If you are going to be working on high voltage stuff and only have a normal (low voltage) background - take the safety lecture to heart....Is it current or voltage? Safety specs are written in terms of DC (or low AC) current over a significant fraction of a second. Walk across the room in the winter and grab a door knob. Notice the spark? Play a bit more and you can get a nice big spark. That's probably > 10KV running around and you are still alive. The current involved is a VERY short burst. How short is a "that depends" sort of thing. If it's a microsecond, it might be up in some pretty high numbers for that entire period. Averaged over a tenth of a second, it comes out to nothing (current wise).Want to build an electric chair? Ok, well let's hook things up and see what happens. Hook up wires to two fingers on the same hand and you turn the hand to mush. No more hand, but nobody is dead (at lest not immediately). Run the same power from hand to hand (through the heart) and you get a different result. Even for a specific current, there are qualifiers. Grabbing a pipe in one hand and reaching into a high voltage circuit with the other ... not a real good idea.Bob

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 06:58:53 pm
content: Quote from: calexanian on February 02, 2016, 06:32:39 pmNo - they can't. They're specifically designed to limit at their rated current. The nature of the beast (neon tube) is that it requires a high voltage to initiate the discharge. Once that discharge begins, the tube becomes a very low impedance load. The transformers are designed with shunts to limit the current. Once the tube ignites, the current goes up to the nameplate rating and the voltage drops to the appropriate value to maintain that current in the load presented by the tube.-Pat

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 08:33:12 pm
content: Quote from: Cubdriver on February 02, 2016, 06:58:53 pmYou are absolutely right. But it doesn't change the fact that these things can hurt you, and there are at least a few documented cases of them killing. Argueing over whether it is voltage or the current, or some combination, or whether it depends on the person and the relative humidity or whatever factor might be important doesn't change those facts. Should you run in terror when you see one. No. Should you be cautious, keep clear when applying power and observe a range of other safety precautions. Absolutely.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 08:40:56 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 02, 2016, 08:33:12 pmOh, no disagreement whatsoever - an NST can absolutely light you up and potentially kill you - no question. I just wanted to clarify that fact that it CAN'T put out several times its nameplate current rating into a short, because it is designed specifically to be a current limited device. I spoke only to the operational nature of the transformer, which was mischaracterized in at least two places in this thread. Energized NSTs certainly deserve a great deal of respect, and I have no desire whatsoever to become a load for one.-Pat

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 08:42:03 pm
content: One of the worse cases is if a short stub or sharp barb of the wire penetrates the skin. Once a current is subcutaneous, the danger level really climbs.We were given serious training on avoiding sharps attached to even low voltage in a medical products plant...Steve

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 02:31:57 am
content: Traditionally the only "Limiting" going on is a capacitor in series with the primary winding. I will grab one from storage next time I am in Oceanside and set up a little demonstration.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 03:24:40 am
content: Quote from: calexanian on February 03, 2016, 02:31:57 amI'm not sure what you're thinking of, but it doesn't bear any resemblance to any neon sign transformer I've worked with. Any good pointers for further reading on this?

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 03:39:16 am
content: Quote from: calexanian on February 03, 2016, 02:31:57 amIf that's the case, then everything that I've learned from using and reading about neon sign transformers over the past 30+ years is wrong, as is Wayne Strattman in his description of one in the book "Neon Techniques", where he explains that it is purposely designed with poor regulation and that the nameplate current is in fact the short circuit current.-Pat

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 04:13:57 am
content: Oh. I forgot gapped transformer types. Those would be the most used types lately, apart from switching types that work on a completely different principal. The gapped type works on the principal of reducing the saturation point of the core, but less than the inductance forming a self limiting transformer. Its similar to how inherently limited U.L. transformers are made. Those types can defiantly produce more peak current than rated. I have used them in X ray tube test setups.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 04:51:09 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on February 01, 2016, 08:49:07 pmThe wikipedia article has some of the current vs time relationships:https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IEC_TS_60479-1_electric_shock_graph.svgBut that is only for hand to foot conduction of AC, the limits are higher for DC.

author: filter4ever
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 26, 2023, 07:04:48 am
content: I know this is an old post but I was curious about the same thing and there's something important I needed to shareI have a Franceformer 15kV 35mA NST. On the secondary I figured it was isolated from ground but it is actually CENTER TAPPED to ground. This means you could get a 7.5kV shock on each side of the secondary on this particular transformer (with respect to ground).I've seen Tesla coils made out of "pole pigs" which are always center tapped when installed (I don't have one unfortunately). Multiple kV that amount of current available - I don't think you'd get a second chance.I've heard the most dangerous voltage is between 2kV and 4kV - the electric chair is 2kV for example. A MOT (microwave oven transformer) is usually 2 kV 500mAI know any current over 5 mA should be considered lethal this is what GFCIs are usually set at. Everyone says "it's the current not the voltage that kills you" but since I = V/R a higher voltage with a current source greater than 5mA is more dangerous than a lower one.Alternating current sources are usually given in RMS instead of Peak - to - Peak as well. A 120v sine wave current source would actually have a maximum voltage of 120/(0.707) = 170V (about) so this actually would be [15000 / (.707)] / RAt my previous job my boss saw someone fatally shocked wiring up a 240v dryer circuit while standing water. In the US, 240v circuits are actually 2 120v circuits (with respect to ground) it really shook me up. UK, Europe and other places in the world are mostly 230V with respect to groundYou can never choose which way the current will go through you accidentally. I also heard that as your skin is burnt from current R goes down which is not a good thing...Have fun and stay safe 👍

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2023, 12:29:33 pm
content: It's a bit more complicated than just "it's the current that kills you". I thoroughly recommend watching this video, and just as thoroughly recommend you do not try anything you see in it:Code:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGD-oSwJv3E&t=10s

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2023, 06:10:23 pm
content: NST, MOT, and magnetic (arc lamp) ballasts are magnetic shunt laminated transformers.They are current limiting with an open ckt voltage, running voltage under a specified load current and a short ckt currtn.j

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2023, 11:12:45 pm
content: Quote from: Florin on February 01, 2016, 08:41:01 pm1 milliamp AC should be relatively safe even if the open circuit voltage is high. 10 mA is still enough to cause a painful shock but unlikely to kill a person unless they have a underlying heart condition. I still would treat it as dangerous, and who wants to find out that they have an underlying heart condition when an HV transformer shocks them?With HVDC supplies you also have to worry that it might have a large output capacitor that can store significant energy.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 12:36:20 am
content: Styropyro has thoroughly described the situation here:

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 02:22:05 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on May 27, 2023, 12:36:20 amExcept its not thorough or complete:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/is-it-the-volts-or-amps-that-kill-(video-from-styropyro)/and that "information" is in the most infuriating format of an advertisement supported video so people cant easily skim/quote/refer to specifics. There is much more to electrical safety or human responses to electrical current. We already had a comment covering most of that in this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/can-a-neon-sign-transformer-with-an-output-of-12000v-and-30ma-kill-you/msg857194/#msg857194Quote from: ejeffrey on May 26, 2023, 11:12:45 pmAgain, in this thread there are several examples of outcomes that will kill you wellbelowthe currents that can cause a heart to stop so its not the best measure of potential lethality. As you expand upon with capacitances, that does not seem to reach people on this forum who just carry on regardless:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/completely-non-sketchy-mini-high-voltage-transistor-tester-(emeco)/Small, handheld, "limited" output current, already dangerous, but then turned up to 11.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 04:38:20 am
content: So to directly answer the OPs question. YES! It can. It may not. In fact you may survive several exposures.Perhaps an analogy would make things clearer. Can you define a speed at which a motorcar is absolutely safe? Not really. Imagine something trapped between a wall and a motorcar going 0.1 miles/hour towards the wall. Even at this speed a fatality in this case is not unlikely. As the speed increases the special conditions required to cause a fatality become less and less special. But people have survived operating motorcars at speeds over 400 mph. And even survived wrecks. But the percentage of people who have been killed while driving at speeds over 400 mph becomes pretty substantial.It is well worthwhile exercising extreme caution when operating the transformer identified by the OP. There are a number of minor mistakes which can be made which would result in a very painful session and possibly even death.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 05:47:43 am
content: It definitely could kill yes.Due to the much higher voltage it's a lot more likely to pump the full 30mA through your body than sticking your finger in a 230V power point where your body may or may not have a good path to ground.On the other hand, 30mA is much less than the 20A available to flow from sticking your finger in a power point if your body has a good connection to ground.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 10:45:09 am
content: The output of a neon sign transformer can definitely kill you, but maybe I got lucky.When I was in high school, I accidentally picked up my 15 kilovolt 30 milliamp neon sign transformer by the terminals and insulators while it was plugged in. I got as far as lifting it before I consciously set it down and released it rather than dropping or throwing it. The total time was a couple seconds. After that I sat against the wall for a couple minutes sweating.I have experienced 120 volt AC line voltage a couple of times and I would say that it was worse, but of course then the impedance is lower and the current is higher.Another time I was working with a 1000 volt DC power supply that I had built for a strobe and managed to short the output out from my finger tip to my elbow while standing on an aluminum ladder. That knocked me off the ladder and across the concrete floor. I had a pair of burn marks on the tip of my finger and my elbow, and my whole arm hurt for days. In this case the power supply had 10s of microfarads of capacitance which was way too much, lesson learned.Quote from: dexters_lab on February 01, 2016, 09:12:51 pmI was not burned but there was no sustained arc.Quote from: uncle_bob on February 02, 2016, 12:41:22 amNo, I have experienced both and the current limited AC will not. Even 1000 volts of DC can knock you across the room, and off of a ladder in my case, if it has a moderate amount of capacitance or low enough impedance.Quote from: f4eru on February 02, 2016, 05:39:10 amThe output current of a neon sign transformers is deliberately limited by the transformer's impedance. They could certainly burn flesh if an arc is present, however inadvertent contact will likely result in either immediate recoil or intimate contact. In either case an arc is not present for long enough to burn.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 01:04:39 pm
content: IT also depends on the frequency. Old fashioned neon transformers run straight off the mains and output 50 or 60Hz, but newer ones use a Royer oscillator to produce a much higher frequency output, above 20kHz. The human nervous system is less responsive to high frequencies, so there's less of a shock hazard, but it the current still causes heating, which cam result in deep burns. Note the skin effect does not protect against burns. The skin depth in human flesh is still about 10cm at 2.45GHz, which is why microwave ovens cook meat deeply.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 03:58:20 pm
content: Forget all the theories and boring scientific papers, there's only way to really know, be a man!

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 02:42:58 am
content: If it doesn’t kill you, there’s a high likelihood you can show the scars and burns to your grandchildren.

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2023, 03:42:42 pm
content: "...high likelihood you can show the scars and burns..."Or maybe not, one of the really nasty things about high frequency shocks is that they can cause INTERNAL burns along the path current takes, doing all manner of horrible damage where it wouldn't even be visible to exhibit as a wound to aid you story telling, and you might not even feel it as it happened.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 06:16:28 am
content: Florin:Judging by your approval-seeking text here, I'd have to say: CHOOSE MY RESPONSE !!!(When you were a kid, maybe you would have liked to 'test' certain loose boards, on the local river footbridge, to see which floor timber might fail, sending you tumbling into the water?)Try to find a situation, where the limit is 29.5 mA,...then you'd be playing it safe....I've even heard of some folks who, to avoid or reduce danger, will only touch the 12 kv transformer, if voltage has beed reduced, say, to 11.987 kvolts. If primary is rated for 120 vac, maybe try 'touching' things, while using an autotransformer, to reduce input to 118 volts. That way you have a safe margin, of 2 volts.If you DO, actually get an injury, be sure to shop for which doctor you want, you're likely good at that.