If you do this - f**k you! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 03:20:13 am
content: Found this on ebay. There are tons of equipment like this, people use permanent marker on the faceplate which is near impossible to get off, I've seen some devices where the screen is scratched with a big X because they are out of cal.I'd buy it and fix it but can't live with the ugly crosses on it.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 03:24:00 am
content: Doesn't it come off with rubbing alcohol?As a test, I just used a Sharpie permanent market on the plastic case for an SD card adapter and rubbing alcohol took it right off.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 03:27:03 am
content: Buy it for me and I'll fix it. I don't care!

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 03:31:42 am
content: I like to buy it to try repairing it, but not for that price.

author: MrPlacid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 03:33:47 am
content: I have a Zwipes pen that can remove permanent marker better than rubbing alcohol.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 04:02:18 am
content: It depends on the type of plastic/rubber and the marker solvent.Some combinations will, over time, leach all the way though the plastic to the other side.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 04:30:01 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on June 05, 2012, 03:20:13 amIt is possible to get the crosses off - if you can find the right solvent. The right solvent is the one in the permanent marker pen that was used to make the crosses, so a first step in cleaning is often to take a guess of the pen, draw over the line until the old line is dissolved, and then wipe off as much as possible. Masking tape is a good idea to prevent making a bigger mess. Then you have to find something to remove the remains of the new pen.Sometimes the best solvent is a surprise. I had a problem with marker pen's residue remaining on a plastic until I tried an alcohol-based disinfectant here called "Dettol", and it removed the marks totally.Richard.

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 04:41:02 am
content: Quote from: amspire on June 05, 2012, 04:30:01 amIt all depends on the rubber/plastic. For example old perm marker on fluke cases soaks up to 1.2 mm deep and is not removable even with abrasion, I did a crossection to see how bad it was. I tried extreme UV to break down the dye with limited success, it damages the plastic. The grey plastic that HP/agilent uses is a bit easier with isopropyl and mild abrasive but again depends on how long it has been on. If the plastic is porous and amorphous at the same time you are screwed. The dye will stick into micro-cracks, they will change shape and the dye will only come out mechanically, like with ultrasound wash or something.Case in point that using perm marker to label equipment, working or not is a douche move.

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 04:46:43 am
content: Quote from: iamwhoiam on June 05, 2012, 03:37:22 amI didn't buy it. I'm just bitching.Personal attack removed by moderator

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 05:02:18 am
content: He boiled for the sins committed by the owners of that PSU.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 05:10:40 am
content: Yeah, that's pretty evilPoor defenseless test equipment!Dave.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 06:07:20 am
content: What an asshole. This happens when people get into EE because of the supposed money, and not because for the love of it. Asshole should have studied for an MBA instead.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 06:30:01 am
content: I took over a service dept one time where a lot of this attitude prevailed. On one hand I found techs who'd lovingly care for equipment till way past it's use by on the other I had tools who'd send a fluke or notebook down a stairwell so they'd be issued with the latest and greatest. It's nothing but arrogance and vandalism from tools who don't have to fund their own tools.The solution to all this vandalism was Vernon's policy ofEquitable Redistribution.tmWhen test equipment turned up damaged it was still replaced but the new stuff went to the techs with the the oldest well cared for equipment, the vandals got to do their job with the oldest and saddest kit. My replacement budget reduced and respect for equipment took on a greater importance.

author: Flávio V
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 06:33:33 am
content: Yeeeeah...in my college they do that...There WAS(stolen)a multimeter than had that saying "does't measures voltages" and when i first read that i thinked "How it is possible???"There is other than it is a transformer than a stupid math nerd destroyed by connecting the primary were the secondary should be..I didn't stole that multimeter...and i have a fluke 8060a so...much better than the 30€ ones there...and the electricians fluke 117...and there is no electricity course in my college so that multimeter is crap...less continuity...

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 06:48:58 am
content: Umm ... i didn't get what you were saying

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 07:57:30 am
content: i have seen it way too often in tafe's where with 20 year old gear they switch colours because almost all of the surface has soaked in black,also i'vd seen it on the instruments i repair, if somethings broken buy a thing of name tags and sharpie that :/ poor instruments,

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 08:01:17 am
content: I'll gladly write on test equipment if it keeps me from making mistakes, or more commonly keeps other people from accidentally screwing up my measurements. If it knocks a few bucks off the resale price when my employer goes belly up and gets liquidated, that is nearly the farthest thing from my mind . The lone exception being the possibility that someone who sees the photo on ebay will be _personally offended_.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 08:15:13 am
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on June 05, 2012, 08:01:17 amHows that work? When have people ever read, or more importantly observed, simple instructions? Especially ones scrawled illegibly in marker pen! How much extra effort would a it be to run something up with a label maker? At least that wouldn't look like scrawl left by an errant chimp. Would you write your type pressure in marker on the wheel arches of your car? Show some pride man!

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 08:29:46 am
content: I have bought equipment that has been written on with marker pen, mostly seems to come from education departments where teachers have marked generic settings. It will clean off with alcohol or benzine and it that will not remove it totally I use T-Cut to polish it off.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 09:23:44 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on June 05, 2012, 06:07:20 amBut is that really any better?I ask, as such a person is likely to run into limitations as to how much damage they can do (say Project Manager at worst). But with an MBA, they have the potential of screwing up an entire company.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 09:29:51 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on June 05, 2012, 09:23:44 amThen tough tits to the person that gave them the job. Why is it that idiots always get into high places ?

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 10:09:59 am
content: If you really have a piece of equipment that annoys you to no end, do a Peace or a Widlar.Bob Peace is on record for throwing a computer from a building because the computer lied to him and should never ever lie to anyone else.Bob Widlar is on record for methodically applying a hammer to components that malfunctioned until they were only dust.

author: Architect_1077
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 10:26:45 am
content: QuoteBeautiful!Wish there were more people like you in that respect. I absolutely hate people that are careless with (any) equipment.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 10:34:12 am
content: me too. people are so wasteful and have no respect for anything anymore.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 10:58:20 am
content: what the noise? here fixed that for you. in real life this should be much easier.Quotei read an app-note (cant recall which) about probes. the best probe is the one is vandalized by the owner by writing "damaged" on it so other people got no interest at it.

author: mAJORD
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 11:31:24 am
content: Quite the first world problem!

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 11:51:39 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on June 05, 2012, 04:41:02 amI bought a pair of yellow Fluke 27s for 20 dollars (US) total, with shipping. Some idiot had not just written a note or a name with a permanent marker, they wrote zig zag lines all over the back. In short, there was marker on all 6 sides of the meter. I bought them for parts, but figured, what the heck, I'll try to clean them.I found that "Goop" brand hand cleaner will remove them, but it took a long time. Apply, wait, rub a bit, wash with warm water repeat. I eventually got them cleaned.I hate it when idiots write "AC" and "DC" on the Fluke meters because they can't understand the symbols.What good does it do to write your name on a meter with marker? If someone's going to steal your meter, only the most stupid thief would continue to use it in your presence so you can see who took it. The smart thief will take it home and use some "Goop" cleaner....EDIT: Typed "that" instead of "they."

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 12:57:58 pm
content: QuoteYou have obviously never worked in a lab. Equipment like that walks off all the time. Writing your name on it helps you identify your meter when you find it at someone else's workbench.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 01:34:48 pm
content: I've worked in a lab before, but my co-workers are obviously much more honest.I suppose in that environment one would have no choice, but everywhere I've worked, I've never had to write on my equipment with a marker.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 01:48:39 pm
content: Quote from: iamwhoiam on June 05, 2012, 01:46:45 pmYeah, but we're engineers, we LIKE to get worked up about minor stuff. Getting a grip is boring!! It's much more fun to have a good rant.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2012, 09:45:52 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on June 05, 2012, 09:29:51 amAs well as anyone that looses their job due to the decisions made by the Morons of Business Administration.Quote from: Simon on June 05, 2012, 09:29:51 amPerhaps their lips are firmly planted on the correct arse?

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2012, 04:29:32 am
content: Quote from: iamwhoiam on June 05, 2012, 01:46:45 pmBullshit. If that thing was so important, one would have immediately removed it from where it was in use, attached a label to it telling it is broken and put it in storage until it goes out for repair or to the junk yard. And if there would be a slight risk of anyone taking it out of storage from the "is broken" pile one would have disabled the power supply. In a super high risk environment it might have been immediately destroyed instead.But this half ass "artwork" is the work of an asshole who gives a toss. Someone who didn't value it and couldn't even muster the energy to fetch and attach a label, didn't even want to arrange to get it repaired, didn't arrange for proper disposal, and didn't care to get it destroyed immediately.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 06, 2012, 04:46:44 am
content: Quote from: iamwhoiam on June 05, 2012, 01:46:45 pmSo important that they deserved no more effort than some marker scrawl that could just have easily been the work of some passing primate/vandal/teenage,r or other semi developed life form?What kind of clueless would it require to do actual safety warnings in marker scribble? If it was in fact a potential risk situation then such markings are wholly inadequate and all concerned would leave themselves open for prosecution.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2012, 05:22:47 am
content: Quote from: iamwhoiam on June 05, 2012, 01:46:45 pmBut it isn't saying "Do not adjust",which would be appropriate for that situation,it says "Does not adjust",which is how you might mark a faulty piece of equipment being sent for repair.If it had been taken out of service & the scribbler was worried it might be inadvertently used in some critical situation,the appropriate message would be "Faulty! Do Not Use!".As some posters have pointed out,permanent marker gets more permanent with age,so that if the original repair turnaround was short,the Tech could have almost completely removed it with alcohol.Many organisations decide at short notice that they don't need a permanent Tech,so a few days turnaround could easily turn into6 months or more by the time a contract Tech gets to it---by that time the markings will be pretty near impossible to remove.I have been the contract Tech,& have been confronted by a pile of jobs which had accrued over a year or so!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 06, 2012, 02:22:45 pm
content: Quote from: iamwhoiam on June 06, 2012, 02:12:10 pmWhy not write over it in marker and see if your wish comes true?

author: Architect_1077
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2012, 02:29:58 pm
content: QuoteBa-dum Tsssssssssssss

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2012, 05:46:04 pm
content: Quote from: Architect_1077 on June 06, 2012, 02:29:58 pm

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2012, 06:38:10 pm
content: Quote from: iamwhoiam on June 06, 2012, 06:00:00 pmCome on, you are just pissed that the religious thread was closed under your nose and you could no longer troll there.But if you really have an issue, don't spend time here, visit your church instead and pray for us.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2012, 06:57:10 pm
content: I write mine on labels, as indelible really does not work on stainless steel. For really indelible I use an engraver, or the 2 boxes of letter and number punches.

author: XynxNet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2012, 07:09:37 pm
content: The reason for the markings on that power supply are quite clear. It propably was intended for recycling. The marking tells the fault and prevents to some degree that the item is fraudulantly traded on ebay as a working unit.Markings on gear from educational institutions have usually a different background. If you are the unlucky guy who maintains the electronic/computer/physics lab, but who doesn't give the courses, it is better to mark the settings on an oscilloscope than repairing it on a weekly basis because some clueless student damaged it again.I have been there....

author: Spawn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2012, 09:46:50 pm
content: I can understand if someone marks his equipment at work, but mostly people do that on a spot which is not directly visible, marking with big X on the front panel just shows how big idiot you are and don’t deserve to work with that equipment even if it’s broken.For me it is like drilling on the dash of your car to attach some phone holder, if I buy second hand car and there is a single hole because of that I just don’t buy it, same goes for the equipment with weird markers on it.Off topic: I think the religious thread is closed for some reason and there is no point start it here, but that’s my humble opinion…

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 06, 2012, 10:53:02 pm
content: Using the marker like that is just very poor form indeed, and clearly indicates either a neanderthal like technical person, or more likely simply a production operator who doesn't give a shit about technical gear.I've encountered very few technical people who would have done that, but found it very common with production people. They LOVE their permanent marker!As has been mentioned, if it was dangerous, then a standard issue red danger tag should have been attached, perhaps even tapped over the front controls so it's really obvious, and of course removed from the line and placed in the equipment cupboard. Any well managed place will have a shelf or cupboard specifically for broken gear that needs repair, along with cupboards for gear awaiting cal, spare gear etc..Dave.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 06, 2012, 11:44:34 pm
content: Quote from: XynxNet on June 06, 2012, 07:09:37 pmOh? I was a clear cross was it?QuoteDeclared by who exactly? Most busy repair departments use Unrepairable/Danger tags and/or a one way trip to the skip bin.QuoteNo the markings are so some bored care factor zero employee gets his life brightened with a new model toy or some wasted time while new kit is sourced.QuoteYeah added vandalism from bored youth in quantityQuoteIf marker scrawl is the quality of your presentation then you should consider seriously your business masquerading as a tutor. Doesn't matter if it's expensive kit or some $2 parts all that kind of crap teaches is a lack of pride in your work.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2012, 12:11:56 am
content: It may be a case of vandalism, or it may be a victim of company internal politics. If the company kept handing it back claiming it was repaired and it kept failing - possibly damaging the load, someone may have had enough and wanted to make sure it would never come back again.It may have been the boss of a company that ordered that someone make sure that piece of gear was never used again after it caused a contractual deadline to be missed. Who knows the story? Who cares?This is a 120V supply that does not adjust properly. It has no output On/Off switch, so that you only see the voltage is is going to output when you switch it on. So you set the voltage control potentiometers fully anti-clockwise to 0V and it may output 140V unregulated. If the people who have to use this supply just do not trust it, it is a lethal piece of equipment. Did someone get a serious shock from it? Did the service department repeatedly just spray the pot with cleaner and send it back to the lab or to production? This is an important message to the buyer - Is the supply design flawed - Does the voltage go to a lethal and destructive level if the wiper on the pot goes open circuit?Anyway, I see it as an opportunity to get a discounted piece of gear. The ink may have penetrated the surface of the label, but in most cases the marker can be removed to 90% to very often 100%. We do not know, as no-one purchased the item to see. I had some indelible pen markings on the front of a fluke 8050A and I cleaned that totally. I have changed a lot of instruments from 120V to 240V, and that often means deleting a indelible pen mark on a 120V box on the rear label and marking 240V. I have always done that successfully.If the ink is removable, then no permanent vandalism was done at all. In fact, there is a much better chance of removing pen from the front panel then the plastic of a case, so the front panel may be the best place - if you are going to do it.If anyone wants to claim it is pure vandalism, the question I ask is have they ever destroyed a piece of gear that they regarded as junk? I have seen a lot worse done to equipment then marker pen to the front panel.Richard.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2012, 01:43:43 am
content: Quote from: iamwhoiam on June 07, 2012, 01:28:36 amThanks. Thinking about it some more, I am even more sympathetic to whoever marked the front panel.As the supply has no output On/Off switch, that means you have to fully connect the load before switching on (you do not want to be plugging and unplugging supply leads to a live 120V supply).The regulation is clearly unreliable, and that means well over 120VDC unregulated can go to the load regardless of the voltage and current settings .I imaging that marking up the front panel is a remarkably restrained response to the grief that this supply almost certainly has caused.Richard.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 07, 2012, 03:52:03 am
content: Quote from: iamwhoiam on June 07, 2012, 01:57:50 amThen don't read it!!! Certainly don't participate!!!QuoteWhat part of getting on with life is does your whining constitute?QuoteWhy? You don't live by your own advice WTH should I comply?QuoteHave we? How the frig do you know what I have or haven't don't! Who decided your scale of worse was applicable?QuoteThat's a question for people that have faults I guess. Why would it concern me?QuoteAnd this is supposed to interest me how exactly. To be truthful I don't give a frying fig if you've had carnal knowledge with yourself and packet of indelible markers.QuoteI look where I damn well choose without you instruction thanks all the same.QuoteThen go beat yourself up for it! How does any of that concern me?QuoteHow do you know. Just because you screwed up multiple times, doesn't imply the rest of us are tarred with the same brush.QuoteNeither is your spelling. On a relative scale I' so much closer to perfection than you, I can consider myself essentially perfect in this regard and fully qualified to tell you to STFU.QuoteNext time you want to tell me or anyone else how to think, you should think first and then do exactly that!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 07, 2012, 04:20:49 am
content: Quote from: iamwhoiam on June 07, 2012, 04:13:33 amNo hard feelings, tell you what, you win today's Golden Kiriakos, I sure others will do the same!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2012, 06:43:30 am
content: Quote from: iamwhoiam on June 07, 2012, 01:57:50 amDon't keep telling him that,or "Noone" will get a big head-----wasn't he a member of "The Monkees"?

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2012, 08:36:29 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on June 07, 2012, 06:43:30 amAll I said was "Thanks".Anyway, I think Peter Noone was the lead singer of Herman's Hermits who was perfect, except when he was singing all his other really crap songs.My favorite Monkeys clip is this performance by even more perfect Mike Nesmith of the huge hit song he wrote for Linda Rondstadt "Different Drum":Richard.

author: LEECH666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2012, 02:47:07 pm
content: High effort solution to a ruined face plate:- Design a similar front end sticker in some vector graphics tool like Inkscape / Coreldraw / Visio / etc.- print it out and run it through a laminator- cut holes in it where needed- stick it to fron panel with double sided sticky tapeThere is probably a big hole to this approach somewhere ...

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2012, 03:27:09 pm
content: One can most certainly "redesign" the front panel if desired

author: WorldPowerLabs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2012, 05:28:13 pm
content: Quote from: Spawn on June 06, 2012, 09:46:50 pmAgreed on the car issue. I've never owned a new car -- why pay the premium for "new" when a used car has a proven track record? I won't buy a car with any holes in the interior, cut-up seats, rust, owner-modified wiring, etc. To some people, a car is just a tool -- but you can still treat your tools with respect. I *hate* seeing people set objects on their roofs or trunks and then slide them off! I hate it even more when passengers do that to my cars (they learn not to do that again!).Used equipment? I try to find pieces that are like-new, unless they are very rare, dirt-cheap, or free. Sometimes you can pick up cosmetically-perfect items with easily-repaired electronic failures for less money than beat-up but working examples.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2012, 05:34:44 pm
content: Not all places where such equipment is used have red tags for denoting faulty equipment I have been to smaller company's who do not have their own maintenance department and seen this sort of thing even done it on my own equipment when sending for repair to outside repair shops as in the past I have sent equipment for repair for it to come back with a note no fault found. This Was due to labels going adrift in transit and the guy doing the repair does not get a copy of the instruction sent to the office and an intermittent fault,Felt tip will just about always come of with methylated spirits (denat. alcohol)

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 01:08:04 am
content: Quote from: amspire on June 07, 2012, 01:43:43 amI don't know about you,but for a supply of that sort of voltage,I would check the output with the supply on,& nothing connected first.(Isn't that what all those high-spec DMMs are for?)I would then turn it off,connect the equipment,& turn it on again.If it had some strange fault that only showed up every second time it was switched on,I'd be out of luck,but that is a fairly rare occurrence with power supplies.If it has caused someone aggro to that degree,I would suggest that its regulation is lousy on load so that the voltage is low,rather than high,it has high ripple or something niggling like that,which might be missed on a cursory check,rather than actually being dangerous.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 02:11:51 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on June 08, 2012, 01:08:04 amYou are making assumptions. If the regulation was intermittent, then you know you have a problem when you switch the supply on with your $2000 phone exchange board connected which is meant to run off -48V and you see the supply is outputting -150V unregulated instead.I would do a heck of a lot more then grab a marker pen. Could the supply be fixed? Yes. If you were a production manager, would you prefer to never see this supply again? Absolutely.Richard.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 02:27:33 am
content: Quote from: amspire on June 08, 2012, 02:11:51 amIsn't that somewhat overstepping the mark. Sure as a production manager you make the calls on what should or should not be used, what equipment is fit for service. Cost of production, downtime yada yada! But as a production manager your most unlikely to be the one one in charge of purchase or repair policy for capital equipment. Frankly I be seriously considering further employment of any myopic production manager whose myopic view of his own task disregarded other considerations.There are any number of procedures for properly declaring equipment unfit for current use, none of which are ever likely to involve marker scrawl!

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 02:40:56 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 08, 2012, 02:27:33 amBut we are just guessing. I think it is very clear that whoever scrawled on the front panel was not prepared to ever get that supply another chance. They didn't want to ever see it recycled back in the system. Who knows what authority that person had? If the person had zero control on what the service department did, then this is an excellent solution.Anyway, as I said, it is a great sign that either that supply has a bad chronic problem, or even worse, the design from HP is flawed. Every now and then HP did make a dud. It may be just a crap design that has a habit of jumping to maximum if the pot contacts are a bit dry. That is something I would be greatful to know before buying. I would check the circuit first to see if it is easy to do a mod. Some of this generation of HP supplies can do extremely ugly things on the output if the ratios of the two rectifier caps going to the regulator components is slightly out causing the one side of the regulator supply to come up before the other side. The result was a maximum voltage spike on startup or shutdown.If you are going to design a supply with no output switch, you need to properly ensure that the regulation runs before there is an output voltage, and some of the HP supplies did this extremely poorly. With a lower voltage supply, I can switch on first and then connect the load second. With a high voltage supply, I want to connect the load first, so I need a properly designed supply.If it turn out this is one of HP dud designs, I may decide not to touch it at all at any price.Richard.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 02:57:08 am
content: Quote from: amspire on June 08, 2012, 02:11:51 amAgain,just check the output voltage before you connect it.It's what a Technician or Engineer would normally do,though production line people may not.The thing does have metering,so if it meters the actual output,there's a warning,right there!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 03:13:56 am
content: Quote from: amspire on June 08, 2012, 02:40:56 amPerhaps so. But it's more than an educated guess the Mr Marker was overstepping his authority.QuoteWithout doubt! What is also very clear is that the same person has little if any regard for capital equipment or towards QC procedure which should ultimately improve the way things are done.QuoteI'm sure they didn't. End when their diagnosis proves flawed (which often happens), we know have a perfectly functional piece of equipment rendered essentially useless. At best you lose hours of service time cleaning the mess at worst a function piece of kit is written off. I'll bet you the misdiagnosis scenario occurs just as often, if not more often, then the flawed repair one Mr Marker assumes will occur.QuoteTrue. But the scrawled handiwork leaves little doubt that same person is pretty low on thecapable scale.QuoteExcellent for who? For the company that just had it's possibly damaged equipment further reduced in value? For the service department staff who now have to add graffiti removal for their skill set. For the pen-holder who (should) have to explain why he has just trashed company assets?QuoteOr an indication that some production monkey has no clue and less regard!QuoteAs has most manufacturers. How is marker scrawl an effective way of isolating a faulty product or batch?QuoteIsn't that a guess?QuoteAgreed. But are you equally grateful that bargain buy while proving To be fully functional is forever flawed an disfigured.QuoteAs would any capable bargain hunter, sourcing stuff of unknown origin. How has the marker scrawl helped at all?QuoteAgain a guess. Nothing about the indelible vandalism proves this is or isn't the case.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 04:27:43 am
content: vk6zgo,Again, you are making up a scenario, and then bagging the guy who marked the panel based on your imaginary scenario. You do not know the history of this supply. You do not know how many times it was repaired and failed. You do not know how many batches of production boards it destroyed when the regulation played up. You do not know how many prototype boards were destroyed, and how many weeks of development time was lost as a result. You do not know if anyone received a very dangerous electrical shock from this supply after they had adjusted it to 5V output, and they ended up with 120V. This is a supply that can easily kill someone. You do not know if this supply destroyed thousands of dollars of expensive test equipment when the regulation failed. You do not know if it has a bad design flaw that HP never fixed.You do not know if this supply was responsible for a Steve Jobs presentation failing (I know - just too awful to even imagine).What you do know is that someone wanted anyone who picked up this supply to know that it had a serious problem and this person never intended to see this supply repaired. That is all we really know.The truth is you just want to bag the person who did this as a vandal, despite not knowing a thing about this case.Go ahead if it makes you feel happy but there are far worse things that people do - chucking a broken multimeter in the bin, leaving gear a damp garage where it can corrode, leaving batteries in a piece of test gear so long that the batteries had leaked and corroded parts of the instrument.Richard.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 04:51:39 am
content: Richard,I do not want to "bag" the person who marked the panel,I am only commenting on your own "made up" scenario.I simply felt that the less glamorous reason was probably that it was a nuisance,rather than a danger.As you say,I do not know what led to the marking,but neither do you.I simply felt that it would be normal good practice to check the thing with a multimeter,and that if the thing was found to have a permanent excessive voltage present,the marking would most likely say that,rather than "Does not adjust",which does not in any way suggest danger!If you look at my initial posting on this thread,I suggested that the marking may have been meant to be temporary,until it was repaired,but it was overtaken by events,& as the permanent marker does become harder to remove,it is still there.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 04:52:55 am
content: Quote from: amspire on June 08, 2012, 04:27:43 amVK6 isn't making up any scenarios he suggested good practice for a device without a load isolator would be to measure before connection. Maybe a PITA but good practice. What you quote above are possible scenarios. While those if they did occur may be an explanation of why some frustrated production monkey used a marker, they are in no way justification of the practice being good or reasonable.I hate the Toyota Prius, I see them as a flawed product, a road menace and a poor design unfit for intended purpose. Much as I'd love to it is not a good, wise or healthy practice to scrawl indelible X's across their windows, and as such I refrain despite them spoiling my day.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 05:22:09 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 08, 2012, 04:52:55 amAnd what is the proper practice if the supply is faulty, and absolutely should never be repaired (for reasons that we may not know)? Assume that the person responsible did not have the authority to drive over the supply with a forklift.I still regard the marker to the front panel as a very minor thing to do in the scale of things.Richard.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 05:31:52 am
content: Quote from: amspire on June 08, 2012, 05:22:09 amAgain scenarios. How/by who is must not be repaired determined? As to propper practice a recognised danger tag if dangerous or fault tag if simply not functioning. Fix witha cable tie or other secure method.QuoteYet we are supposed to assume authority to deface with marker as a given. Doesn't sound like something you'd find in many employment contracts.QuoteI regard it as piss poor practice showing neither respect or professionalism. I think on this one we will have to differ.

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 05:36:06 am
content: God didn't mark poisonous snakes with permanent marker so don't do it. There are many ways to skin a cat, this is an ugly way. It makes it look sad and hopeless. Probably done due to frustration, and amateurish. The E series power supply is a proven design and it's probably the most serviceable unit, given the availability of service manual.Sometimes we just have to deal with it. This isn't a perfect world, which makes it interesting to survive another day.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 05:57:44 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 08, 2012, 05:31:52 amI have worked in many companies and I do understand good practice and professionalism. The main difference is you are assuming the "practices" apply in this case, and I am saying I do not have a clue as to what the background of this supply is. If the guy who did it owned the supply, there there has been no poor practice (he can do what he like with his supply), no unprofessionalism, and no disrespect. I do not know. You do not know.Where we differ is I look at that ad and say "Great - this is good information" and you look at it and say "That is Vandalism". I am happy to admit we differ in that respect.Richard.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 06:47:56 am
content: Quote from: amspire on June 08, 2012, 05:57:44 amIMO it can't possibly be anything but either:1) Both information and vandalismor 2) simply vandalismi.e. I can't see how this isnotan act of vandalism.Sure, it might be providing some useful info, and you can certainly successfully argue that. But I can't see how you can argue that it's not vandalism as well.There are better (and industry standard) ways to provide that useful info without permanently vandalising the equipment. e.g. a proper red danger/info tag.Dave.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 08:01:58 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 08, 2012, 06:47:56 amI have given reasons before, but the point is we don't know. We don't know what the history. What is wrong with with red tag? - It is useless if the intention is for the instrument to never be repaired and placed back in service. You can just remove a red tag, so you mark the front panel so someone cannot simply remove a red tag. You may be shocked but I do not have any red tag system here at home. I never knew that if I have a problem with an instrument I own and for which I am the sole user that I was required to follow a proper procedure and put a red tag on it.It is news to me that if I decide to chuck an old instrument of mine on the tip, that is fine, but if a supply I own had caused so much damage in spite of many attempt to repair it, that I decide to mark the front panel so I know never to use it, then I am a vandal.I mean - I have even seen someone drop a perfectly good Fluke multimeter from a great height to see if it breaks. But there was a good reason, wasn't there?The front panel markings were probably done for a good reason as well, but we will never know the reason. I have some suspicions with this particular model of supply.Now people who use epoxied metal labels on the front panel for uses such as inventory code numbers on perfectly good instruments - they are pure evil. (I have a few things with the epoxied labels).Richard.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 09:27:01 am
content: Quote from: amspire on June 08, 2012, 08:01:58 amIf the intent was to ensure the equipment was never put back into servicethen the marker scrawl hardly been a professional effort with the unit now doing the rounds on eBay.QuoteAnd if that graffiti covered unit is up for public sale what other conclusion could be determined? The seller is a thief or dumpster diver. Or the original owner never wants to use the thing again but still thinks a (now lower priced) eBay sale is in his interest.QuoteThere are no good reasons.QuoteI hate those things too. What I don't understand is how they can be more evil than marker scribble. Surely all your aguemen ts regarding rights of ownership apply equally in this circumstance.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 09:36:12 am
content: Quote from: amspire on June 08, 2012, 08:01:58 amIf their idea of preventing future use, then their use of a permanent market is almost just a big a FAIL as the reg tag would be in that case. If you know it's dangerous and don't want it the ever used again, then you destroy it, not just mark the front panel. I've seen countless stuff used in product or the lab that has all sorts of crap marked on it, it doesn't stop most people.And evidence that they failed even more is that the item ended up on ebay!Sorry, but I ain't buying it that excuse. It is most likely they just got pissed off and vandalised the thing.Absolutely no point arguing why it was done, as you have indicated, all we know is that itwasvandalised.As yes, that pisses off some people who like to take care of such instruments.Dave.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 11:19:54 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 08, 2012, 09:36:12 amWell I am going to loose this argument.I just do not believe it is vandalism if you damage your own power supply - I get the passion, but I do not understand the logic. It seems like the marker pen is a line drawn in the sand, and there is just never any excuse to cross this line, no matter how crap the device is.I still see the marker pen as low on the level of maltreatment, but it seems I am totally wrong.Richard.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 11:24:36 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 08, 2012, 09:27:01 amThere is no arguing that. Especially when there is no argument.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 12:32:15 pm
content: Quote from: amspire on June 08, 2012, 11:19:54 amIt almost certainly wasn't their own supply, it was the companies, I'd bet on it.I know few people who would do this to their own gear, or anyone in a company who's it was actually their own personal gear (but company owned).Although it's fairly common to permanent marker your name on your gear for example.QuoteYou aren't wrong, in fact you are likely in the majority on the "care factor" for this issue.But to those who hate to see such gear vandalised or mistreated, it can be a big deal to them.I have found this hatred of people who abuse gear is quite common in other enthusiast fields. For example, post a photo of an abused HP calculator on the HP Museum forum you'll be shot down in flames. Or a vintage computer on vintage computer forum etcI get genuine hate mail over destroying meters.Dave.

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 12:43:28 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 08, 2012, 12:32:15 pmNext time you want to destroy one, just write on it with a marker pen.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 12:46:15 pm
content: Quote from: amspire on June 08, 2012, 11:19:54 amNo,Richard you are not totally wrong,nor are you totally right,----just like the rest of us!

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 01:50:02 pm
content: Test gear with a bit of writing on it is nothing compared to the amount of equipment that goes to landfill or e-waste, often securely or pre-demolished to stop it being used at all. Insurance companies are the worst for this, if it's claimed against it must be made not to exist - kill, crush, destroy!

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2012, 02:03:53 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 08, 2012, 12:32:15 pmI hate to see good equipment mistreated, but no way would I place this range of HP supplies in any special category. I would put them at the same level as a reasonable quality chinese supply.This 120V supply in particular should have had more care. It needed more attention to the startup and shutdown performance, and I think it should have had a presettable scr-type overvoltage shutdown, so you can have a hard restriction on the maximum voltage. At 120V, an output switch would have been very useful. They are just cut price designs at a high cost price - nothing special.Not in the same category as my HP1740A scope, my HP 33120A waveform generator or my 6227B dual supply.I grieve when I see one of the great HP instruments deliberately damaged, or missing knobs, meters or instruments with vital accessories missing - like vector meter boxes with no vector meter probes and RF power meters with the RF thermocouple probes missing.But a E3612A - not worth worrying to much what someone else does with such an ordinary and unexceptional supply. Not up to the design standard and care I expect to see from HP. I think they were designed by the marketing department. It appears as if the designers were told to do a bad job to make the next range up look attractive.QuoteAbusing an HP calculator - now you are really talking about vandalism of the worse kind. ( I probably have about 10 HP scientific calculators).I started by borrowing a friends HP35A the year it came out, then my brother's HP45A (the calculator they took to the moon in case the computer failed) and my first job had lots of the incredible HP9825A desktop calculators/controllers. I wouldn't mind having a fully equipped 9825A today, and that is probably the only 1970's computer that I would want to have.QuoteBut you do it for a purpose, and destroying a 2012 device for a useful reason is different to destroying something that has design excellence and that is no longer in production. When you did destroy that Fluke, you showed exactly the huge difference in a Fluke design compared to almost anything else. The Fluke had no business surviving even half of what you put it through. I have never seen anyone demonstrate so clearly how a Fluke meter is worth every cent of the price.I didn't know that they were that good.I am a pragmatist. If I had to do a test that by the end of it would end up with a meter destroyed, I would do it.On the other hand, I was recently polishing up my early 80's Tandy moving coil multimeter.Richard.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2012, 02:53:02 am
content: Quote from: iamwhoiam on June 08, 2012, 03:00:58 pmWhy thank you,iamwhoiam,praise indeed!Iama bit worried about that"pedant"bit,though,as some people are not as erudite as your good self,& may get the wrong idea!

author: voidptr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2012, 02:57:02 am
content: Quote from: Excavatoree on June 05, 2012, 01:34:48 pmi don't want to add more flame to this thread but i tag some stuff too at work, so i'll just say,i always put a sticker under my chair !!!it is so more easy to find it back !http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2001-04-21/

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2012, 03:02:13 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on June 09, 2012, 02:53:02 amFFS vk6zgo don't go quoting idiots off my ignore list. particularly Earl there, who mistakenly thinks he has seen the light.You'd think anyone would be able to identify oncoming headlamps, but apparently not.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2012, 03:19:09 am
content: I've had a few run-ins with Richard before,but he's a nice guy,& we usually settle it amicably.It seems thatiamwhoiamlikes to run around the outside of a fight,poking the combatants with a stick whenever they seem to be giving up on it.We had kids like that back in primary school,but at least we could feed them to the Velociraptors if they got too annoying!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2012, 03:30:08 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on June 09, 2012, 03:19:09 amRichard is not on any ignore list of mine. He has my respect even on issues where we may not agree. There huge difference between disagreeing with people and telling people how they should think and act.