Daylight Savings Time - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 03, 2013, 02:36:01 pm
content: I understand that, for me, ITT Technical Institute, where I got my ASEET in 1999 is a long time ago,and I am just getting back into electronics as a hobby, but does it seem weird to anyone that they have to change the time on their oscilloscope to compensate for Daylight Savings Time? Hantek DSO5102B here and both wife and stepdaughter looked at me funny when I said that I had to go to my office to change the time on my clock and o-scope. Reply if you think it's weird or ignore if you think this is just the mindless ramblings of a semi-senile old fart.Tom, NW0LF

author: Alana
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2013, 03:51:01 pm
content: I remember a story about housewifes who were strict to remember to cut some of the roast they were doing after grandma's receptie. When one new got it she asked - why and no one knew, they just said that everyone does it. And it turned out that grandma had small oven and had to cut some off the roast for it to fit in and her daughter remembered it as "big and important part of receptie".This is how i see it about most housewifes, unfortunately....

author: dfmischler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2013, 04:16:00 pm
content: Yes, I do think it is odd that you have to change the time on your scope. Seeing as how Unix/Linux/BSD and even Windows can take care of it automatically... I think it is unconscionable to build a device capable of communicating to something/anything else that can serve as a time source and still make the user put in the (probably wrong) time.Whether the time should be shifted in the summer is another whole issue that I find questionable.

author: djsb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2013, 04:18:22 pm
content: I've just had to do the same on my Agilent MSO-X3054A (and the clock on my new Honda motorcycle). It's only twice a year so only a minor inconvenience and a good way to check the clocks accuracy.David.PS Maybe theres a box I can click to do the update automatically on the Agilent? Not sure.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2013, 04:24:49 pm
content: Do you really need to, though? Who needs the clock set on their scope? Date maybe, to identify recorded data, but time? Just set it to standard time and leave it...

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2013, 05:16:50 pm
content: I remember seeing a whole slew of Windows updates that only had a time zone update on the advertised update features, for states and counties in the USA. I wondered why?is it so important that it comes as an out of schedule update.Then again the country is so big that having 2 time zones would be good, seeing that Cape town in summer the sun sets at 9PM and in winter rises at 10AM.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2013, 06:13:33 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on November 03, 2013, 04:24:49 pmTo correlate data from several sources, e.g. instruments, or your written notes, at least to the point that you can identify which data belongs to which experiment.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2013, 06:18:35 pm
content: Good point. Of course, it still works if you don't adjust any of them.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2013, 09:00:35 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on November 03, 2013, 05:16:50 pmI think it was applied on all computer because of the possibility of world travel and also working with people via e-mail in different time zones. If I scheduled a meeting with you and your computer didn't know how to convert my time to your time correctly there could be a wasted meeting.I understand why we started using DST years ago, but as the world continues to move away from agriculture to industry it doesn't matter as much as it used to.Those updates that we had years ago were a part of the government trying to save money by adjusting when the time change occurred. I don't recall the exact logic behind it, but I think in the end, it did almost nothing to save money and cost millions of dollars to implement across the country.

author: dfmischler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2013, 10:38:23 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on November 03, 2013, 09:00:35 pmTrust me, DST is not for farmers. My next-door neighbor has a dairy farm. I can assure you that cows don't care what the clock says. They want to be fed when their bellies are empty, and they want to be milked when their udders are full, and they like the routine that a good farmer establishes for feeding and milking and cleaning and pasturing and everything else.Snopes article on DST.

author: walshms
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2013, 10:44:51 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on November 03, 2013, 09:00:35 pmYes, that's the reason to understand the differences in time zones, but the reason for the updates was because governments keep messing with when it starts and stops. You'd think they'd just leave it alone, because the economic excuse is questionable at best, but... it gives them something to do, I guess.If only it would keep them out of the more serious trouble they get into, like shutting down government and giving financial markets reasons to go nutty, I'd be all for it.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 12:34:24 am
content: When the old Indian was asked about Daylight Savings Time, he replied "Only the government believes that you can cut off one foot from the top of a blanket, sew it on the bottom, and have a longer blanket."

author: ahnuts72
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 12:51:15 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on November 04, 2013, 12:34:24 am:D:D:D:D:DSent from my Nook HD

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 01:13:45 am
content: Quote from: ahnuts72 on November 04, 2013, 12:51:15 amI don't care who you are, that's funny!

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2018, 01:41:44 am
content: It's time to adjust your the time ahead by 1 hour in your 'Look and Layout' once again....

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2018, 03:35:18 am
content: Could you just not use GMT+0 regardless of where you are? It would save confusion. Although I'm surprised in that the equipment doesn't automatically adjust for DST. Almost all devices these days do. I've only come across a few which don't (one is a battery analyser, but time is really not that important as we don't print or save any of the results).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2018, 03:43:14 am
content: I can't understand why in 2018 we still observe the ridiculous practice of changing the clocks twice a year. It's not as if it makes the sun stay up any longer, it just causes problems, screws with everyone's biological clock, makes me feel jetlagged for several days after the change and I know I'm not the only one. Only an idiot would believe it saves energy, if I use less lights in the evening I use them more in the morning instead and modern lighting is an almost negligible percentage of my energy bill. It's time to abolish this nonsense, pick a time zone and leave it alone.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2018, 04:06:00 am
content: Yeah. DST may have made sense when factories got their lighting from the sun, but there is little rational reason for it today. Whatever savings there may be are probably more than consumed by the work lost changing clocks and the biological side effects.One of my few regrets in leaving Arizona is that it is one of the few places in the US that ignores this nonsense. There reason is logical. While much of the country enjoys the summer playtime after work and before sunset, no desert dweller treasures that part of the day. Better to spend it indoors in the air conditioned office.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2018, 05:00:01 pm
content: Did the forum clocks just change once again?What's going on?

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2018, 09:46:46 pm
content: I use GMT in my ham radio hobby and have a 24 hour clock for fun. I hate DST for everything else, always takes a couple of days to get adjusted. Here in Florida, a bill is working its way through to keep us on DST. Hopefully, soon, clock changing will be a thing of the past.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2018, 10:52:36 pm
content: I hate DST, there is way too much light in the evening, like up past 8pm. & way too dark in the early morning. I would rather keep my clock 1 hour behind.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2018, 11:09:51 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on April 07, 2018, 10:52:36 pmUp past 8pm? LOLI recall once driving away from work at 10:20 PM and seeing the sun up in the sky

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 12:03:17 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on November 04, 2013, 12:34:24 amI don't think that native stored food for the winter months, right? After all having twice the food for 6 months and having nothing the next 6 months is the same as having food al year round, right?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 12:03:45 am
content: If you want to shift the time you go to bed and get up that's fine with me, but there's no sense in mucking with the clocks. Plenty of businesses have summer and winter hours already, why change the actual time the clock says? It only adds confusion.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 12:06:04 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on April 08, 2018, 12:03:17 amHow does that compare? If you need food year round and you can only harvest it part of the year (let's say half for simplicity) then you harvest twice as much food as you need during the time you can do so and preserve half of it for the winter. Nobody is saying that you can turn a fixed amount of food (or daylight) into more by just shuffling it around.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 12:06:36 am
content: Use UTC for your lab equipment and be done with it. Saves the trouble of having long-running logs get screwed up across a DST change anyway.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 12:15:32 am
content: That's fine and dandy but doesn't do anything to fix the fact that I have to shift my schedule and set all the clocks in the house twice a year.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:11:46 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 08, 2018, 12:15:32 amYou don't. Modern clocks set themselves. Phones, televisions, computers, wall and alarm clocks all can set themselves. This also means you don't have to shift your schedule. 8 AM is still 8 AM. It's just a bit darker outside.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:16:19 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 08, 2018, 12:06:04 amIt's fairly obvious, isn't it? It's still the same amount of food. It's how you distribute it that matters. The same applies to daylight savings. You have the same amount of light. You just make more effective use of it by not sleeping through part of it.That's why the comment about cutting the end of a blanket and sowing it on top doesn't make sense. It completely ignores the fact that the result isn't the same.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:24:45 am
content: If DST is so great, why not just have it year round?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:26:21 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 08, 2018, 01:24:45 amBecause the sun moves around in the sky, causing seasons to happen and changing the amount and distribution of available light.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:42:40 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 08, 2018, 01:24:45 amThere are plenty of proposals on the table, in many countries, to do just that.The current pinning of certain numbers on the clock to when people should be doing particular activities is rather odd. People who need daylight to work just go and do their work at that time, it doesn't need a clock to regulate that. I think all of us in the higher northern latitudes would like it if winter working hours were fixed so that we got light at least at one end of the average person's working day, rather than neither as is currently the case. Keeping summer time in the winter would mean leaving work with some light left in the sky, which I know many people would prefer.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:49:31 am
content: In any discussion of DST I have seen there are people who are pretty strongly against using it, people who are OK with the idea but really don't care that much, but very rarely do I encounter strong proponents.How does this practice survive in that kind of climate? Is social inertia the only reason?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:57:26 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on April 08, 2018, 01:49:31 amIt survives because we luckily still haven't reached the point where every political decision is based upon the loudest mouths.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 02:04:14 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on April 08, 2018, 01:57:26 amDoes this imply that you are a proponent of DST? While I agree with the political sentiment I don't know if it applies to this situation.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 02:07:30 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on April 08, 2018, 01:57:26 amI thought that it was the other way around, biggest gob wins, quiet voices, no matter what the value of their words, get ignored.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 02:11:06 am
content: DST "sort of" makes sense for people who live on the Eastern seaboard of a continent, as the sun rises over the ocean & sets over the land, giving effectively more daylight in the morning.(The sun is"hidden" by the land, & appears to set earlier, whereas it is not hidden in the evening.)It makes no sense for those on the Western side, where the sun rises over the land, & sets over the ocean,so sunrise is, practically, later, & sets over the ocean, giving a later sunset.For those in between, there is little advantage or disadvantage,apart from the annoyance of resetting clocks.The most annoying thing is that the proponents of DST all think they have a "superior intellect" & look down on those of us who, for logical reasons oppose it.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 02:18:54 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on April 08, 2018, 02:04:14 amI'm not sure how that's inferred from my statement. I'm simply saying that the opponents of most things are typically loud, but not necessarily have the majority or final say. If I look at the immigration debate in various parts of the world, I also see it dominated by very loud people with very strong opinions. Luckily, those are not the ones making the final call.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 02:28:43 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 08, 2018, 02:11:06 amAgreed that that part makes sense, but the seaboard dwellers of continents are a relative minority. Most continents have a lot of people in the middle of them. I suspect that your perspective is skewed a bit by coming from a continent where 85% of the population lives 50km or less from the coast.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 02:33:19 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 08, 2018, 02:11:06 amI don't think the suggested advantage is limited to the coastal areas. When you shift the clocks an hour, it'll be lighter or darker in the most landlocked of places too. The idea is that the sun shifts in the sky with the shift of the seasons. Just like you keep an engine in the rpm range most useful and efficient, the daily movements of society are moved along with the light to optimize using them. Rather than sleeping through a few light hours in the morning, you tack one of them on the end of your day to make use of the light longer. It seems counter intuitive, but DST actually means your daily rythm is more steady than without it. The sun rises in a narrower band, which means you getting up in the morning is more consistently timed with the rise of the sun. The net gain is more hours of sunlight experienced in a year.Quartz has a good interactive page about what it means for your rythm.https://qz.com/537672/how-much-daylight-does-daylight-saving-time-save/

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 03:13:20 am
content: Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww---- FFFFFFFFFFF it. Just make everyone place their clocks 30 minutes inbetween and get rid of this BS forever...

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 05:55:41 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on April 08, 2018, 02:33:19 amMost people are awake by 6am at the latest, & on the road to work by 7 am.The extra daylight makes travelling safer.At the end of the day, there is still enough daylight with normal time to get home safely in the WA mid Summer.Play? -----After work, when it has hit close to 40C during the day, all you want to do is get home, sit in the air conditioning & chill.At the two ends of the DST period, the "extra daylight" has diminished sufficiently that with DST, you are driving to work in the dark, but you still have some "playtime"in the evening----Whoopee!Western Australian Standard time is not centred around Perth on the West coast, but on 120E, which runs through the bush just West of Coolgardie, halfway across the State.This means that, apart from the other point I made previously, coastal WA has a certain amount of " built in"DST, all year round.A more sensible approach than DST, would be for those who think they will benefit from "DST" to start work an hour earlier in the Summer.Those who don't think so could work normal hours.The result would be less congestion on the roads, at the expense of making the "rush hour" two hours.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 06:07:07 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 08, 2018, 05:55:41 amAgain, DST is designed to make the sunrise coincide with the work rhythm more consistently. This avoids wild variations in daylight while getting up and travelling to work. That should be safer.Maybe you can talk to your boss and start an hour later in the summer.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 06:40:54 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on April 08, 2018, 06:07:07 amI'm retired, but in one of my jobs, I talked to my boss & started an hourearlierall year round, the same time as the morning shift.This made dealing with suppliers in the DST States easier for me, but when WA trialled it, DST was no advantage at all for the guys who normally started at 7am.If you are an office worker who works the traditional "9 to 5", it sounds good, but a lot of people don't work such hours.Wild variations?We evolved with suchgradualvariations.A sudden jump forwards by the clock goes against all of that evolution.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 06:57:21 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 08, 2018, 06:40:54 amWe're talking to each other by punching plastic bits attached to electric boxes. That's definitely against evolution, yet here we are.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 04:56:41 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on April 08, 2018, 01:11:46 amI have a few clocks that set themselves, but I also have a number of vintage clocks, and nixie clocks I built, and there are clocks on my stove and microwave, none of those are self setting. Also how can I avoid shifting my schedule if everyone else changes their time? If I have a 9am dentist appointment then I still have to operate on the correct time zone. If I have to be at work by 8:30am then I have to shift my schedule when 8:30am is suddenly an hour early or late. If I lived alone and never left my house then I could operate on UTC and nobody would care but in real life I have to interact with the world, the schedules don't revolve around me.DST is stupid, it takes some pretty wild mental gymnastics or stubbornness to support it. I've yet to hear a compelling logical reason to mess up the biological clocks of millions of people twice a year making a sudden jump losing or gaining an hour. It makes me feel like crap for about a week after setting the clocks forward as I'm tossing and turning trying to fall asleep an hour earlier than I'm used to and then forced to get up an hour early on even less sleep. It's completely unnatural.

author: donmr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 05:08:58 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on April 07, 2018, 09:46:46 pmNoooooo. With any fixed time zone people will eventually adjust their schedules to what they want. If we switch to permanent DST everyone will drift back to doing things at the same solar time that they would if we stayed on standard time. So it won't make any difference.Keep the clocks set to match the motions of the earth and sun.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 05:13:21 pm
content: Quote from: donmr on April 08, 2018, 05:08:58 pmWhat are you talking about? How can everyone just drift to doing things whenever they want? Don't most people go to work at a set time? What exactly is stopping people from getting up early in the summer to take advantage of the "wasted" daylight? Why do you care when other people do things? You'd rather force everyone to make sudden shifts in their schedule twice a year despite the data showing an increase in car accidents and health issues after the time changes?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 06:41:05 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 08, 2018, 04:56:41 pmIt frankly sounds a bit like problems are being invented, rather than them being caused by the issue at hand. Setting a clock twice a year can't be that much of a chore, and is entirely preventable if you wish. If you have a 10 AM dentist appointment there's no difference. Or even better, you could wake up and accept that it is whatever time it is. Yesterday's 9 AM was 9 AM. Today's 9 AM is 9 AM. It's like nothing ever changed and how most people do it.I think the root of the disagreement may be that most people don't have any issue going back and forth an hour. There are a few with finicky rhythms and those are the ones that speak up. I can imagine it being a slight nuisance if you have a very sensitive rhythm. I have some issues agreeing with the notion it's completely unnatural though, as I don't see the people complaining abolishing electric lights or other modern comforts that impact life much more significantly.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 01:57:50 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on April 08, 2018, 01:11:46 am8am in a Western Australian Summer isn't dark at all, neither is 7am, when most day workers set off for work.Most people are either at work at the former time, or approaching it.6am WAST ( 7am DST)isstill fairly dark.One problem comes at the other end.Back in the days when we still had Drive-in movies, the first film would start at 7:45 pm.In mid Summer, the first 10 minutes were unwatchable, as it was still daylight.They couldn't put it back much further, as the session usually finished about 11pm as it was.With DST, they would have been starting at 8:45pm, finishing at midnight, just to stay where they were .OK, we don't have Drive-in movies anymore.The problem now shifts to some of the outdoor activities we would partake in.Football ("Soccer to Oz & North American readers) is, for some reason, a Summer game in Australia.It isn't really ideal for the players to be running around in 37C heat, so it is usually played in the lateafternoon.DST brings that "late afternoon" forward by an hour, putting the players & spectators back in the full Summer sun.Unfortunately, it already happens, due to pressure from the Pay TV people, as most of their customers are in the New South Wales & Victoria, which are normally 2 hrs ahead, & with DST, 3 hours ahead of WAST.They want to sit down in the air conditioning & watch the game on TV at around 7 pm DST, (what?---They aren't out enjoying the extra sunshine?), pushing the start time in WA back to 4 pm.With DST in WA, the numbers would look better, but the reality would be the same.I spent a year in England many years ago, & their Summer was about 2 weeks long, so maybe they need every bit of sunshine they can get, but there is no reason it should be applied "willy nilly" everywhere else.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 02:37:49 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on November 04, 2013, 12:34:24 amThe old Indian had the wrong view of the blanket.What the government has done with Daylight Saving is (effectively) to cut off one foot from the bottom of the blanketwhich was hanging over the foot of the bed doing nothingand sewing it onto the top - thus allowing that foot to be utilised.Fortunately, we don't have to resort to cutting and sewing to achieve this ... we can just pull the blanket up one foot.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 02:55:59 am
content: In London on Midsummers day (June 21) it's full daylight by 4:45 am BST and has been twilight for about 45 minutes, if we didn't have summer time that would be 3:45 am UTC. The sun sets at around 21:20 BST (or 20:20 UTC) and twilight adds another 45 odd minutes again. If we didn't have summer time you could have the sun shining into a window before 4 O'clock in the morning. From about the 18th of May to about the 21st July we don't technically have night at all, what we have is astronomical twilight during the darkest part of the 'night'.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 03:04:13 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on April 09, 2018, 02:55:59 amThere's a reason DST is more likely to be adopted by countries further from the equator. It simply makes more sense there.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 05:03:38 am
content: Daylight Saving Time (there's only one Saving, it's not plural), is a crock.It's a method by which you convince yourself you're not getting up an hour earlier, by changing the clock forward. The easier way of doing this would have been just have all government offices open (and close) an hour earlier, the rest of business would have soon followed, and voila you're done. Instead to appease the masses from complaining that "it's too early to get up", we do this nonsense changing the clocks.As for complaining that your various pieces of test equipment don't deal with switching back and forth, I think you should look at how complicated the task really is. There are hundreds and hundreds of distinct time zone combinations (offset, DT offset, start/stop) and they change frequently. Here in Canada we have 5 time zones (not all of which are on 1hr boundaries), and 5 more daylight time zones; and not every jurisdiction uses daylight savings. So here in just one (of 10) province we have 3 distinct settings PST/PDT, MST/MDT and MST year-round. Of course we change our clocks on the US Schedule, so that means that Europe and North America now also change on different days, resulting in Vancouver being 7,8 or 9 hours off London UK depending on when it is.I'd really prefer the whole world just went to UTC, like a lot of industries. All flying (for example) is done in UTC, weather reports are in UTC, flight plans are filed in UTC, so for example while it's currently 14:58 in the afternoon in Sydney Aus, the weather report for YSSY/Sydney (Kingsford Smith) airport is: YSSY 090445Z12015KT CAVOK 32/12 Q1013 FM0500 16018KT CAVOK, or 0445 UTC (by the way, nice weather you've got down there right now).

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 09:32:52 am
content: Quote from: boffin on April 09, 2018, 05:03:38 amWhy? I don't see anycompellingreason for them to do so.In fact, I can see themnotfollowing suit. Workers in those businesses would have less commuter volume to contend with - plus they would have an hour outside their business hours to attend a government agency.There are a lot of other 'little' reasons why this would (IMHO) be an awkward solution - which includes things like advertised trading hours.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 01:27:19 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 09, 2018, 09:32:52 amThere are a lot of places, where there's significant seasonal variation in trade, who advertise different winter and summer opening hours. If every business had traditionally done it, rather than moving the clocks, then you'd think nothing of it.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 01:51:40 pm
content: In the Greater Sydney Metropolitan Area, I have never come across such differences - except for outdoor public swimming pools where they are closed during the colder months.But, then, it is a somewhat moderate climate here.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 04:18:25 pm
content: I hate to break it to you, but Australia is a bit odd, and so it's not a good place to pick to try and turn anecdote into data.It's a bit odd population density and distribution wise, it's a bit odd biologically (marsupials everywhere), they even speak funny and think beer doesn't taste right until it's so cold you can't taste it.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 05:22:46 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on April 09, 2018, 04:18:25 pmThey have winter in the summer and still try to lecture us about one hour's difference.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 07:18:22 pm
content: I know everyone here is concentrating on office/business hours, trade, but, what about school. It must follow suit too, otherwise most parents morning ritual would be messed up, as well as all the workers associated with schooling from teachers, administrators, school buss drivers, ect. If you are going to change the clock system, it need to be done for all all at one time indefinitely.

author: donmr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 07:48:46 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 08, 2018, 05:13:21 pmThe hours that schools and businesses are open are not fixed by any physical laws. They are set according to the perceived desires of the bosses, owners, customers, etc. Given enough time the will settle down to whatever the people want them to be.The only "advantage" of DST is when it is used for part of the year. That amounts to a standard "agreement" that everyone will shift their schedule by 1 hour for that time. If society really agrees that they want this shift than DST is a convenient way to implement it but in today's diverse and global world it really doesn't make sense.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 09:17:29 pm
content: Errr... I don't think it really has a lot to do with farming...US Federal Gov. first got involved with time-standard during the rail era. Before then, States or even cities can use whatever time they want to use. Once trains begin to cross State lines, a standard became necessary.According to (appropriate enough)Time Magazine, DST was first adopted WW I so as to minimize energy use, repealed after the war with Congress twice-overruled President Woodrow Wilson's vetos. Reenacted again during WW II - not repealed post WW II.Those so called "emergency measure" sticking around like glue is not unusual. New York City still has the "emergency" rent control (Emergency Tenant Protection Act). According to the NY State housing fact sheet: to deal with theemergencyof housing shortage immediately following World War II.Not according to the fact sheet but my speculation: I think almost everyone this law is intended to protect has long since moved from houses to cemeteries.[Edit: adding the references I found:]NY State Housing Fact Sheet:http://www.nyshcr.org/Rent/FactSheets/orafac1.htmTime Magazine article on DST:http://time.com/3695333/daylight-saving-time-wwii/

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 10:20:15 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on April 09, 2018, 04:18:25 pmI think you have us mistaken for another location on Earth that speaks funny,because we don't do much Guinness drinking here(unless it's deathly cold and the other beer has run out, served with an apology and re-assuring smile from the bar staff that it is a sort of 'beer')

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 02:23:53 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on April 09, 2018, 04:18:25 pmWe like it.QuoteWhen it's 35º or more, when you want a drink - it has to be cold. Warm drinks taste like ...blehhhh.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 03:15:11 am
content: Yeah, but there's cold beer and there's beer that'sAustraliancold - it's like you're trying to invent an antipodean version ofLandi(An icelandic moonshine often made by freeze 'distillation'). Then again with Fosters you probably don't want to be able to taste it; different story for VB or Emu though.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 03:36:13 am
content: Not being a beer drinker, I can only go on what others have said.... There's a reason why we export Fosters.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 01:46:59 pm
content: Not being mentally able to 'grasp' how our 'Marsupials' that speak funny have anyrelevance to the 'originally' posted question/statement, I only have this to say(For the sake of our other worldly compatriots here ....)....I live (lived) in Adelaide, South Australia. ROUGHLY 60% through our 'continent',if you are thinking East to West geographically. Our more Eastern cities are whatyou probably are used to hearing about, being Melbourne & Sydney.....and they are 1/2 hour ahead of Adelaide. Now, "Daylight Savings" time in Adelaideputs them "in line" with those Eastern states, during the 'Summer' season.....There is a PUSH though, to PERMANENTLY 'Align' with those Eastern states...Yes, we can align ourselves for a 'typical' 8 hour business/transaction period,but why should EVERYONE in South Australia, (Adelaides 'state'), get up half anhour earlier in winter darkness, JUST to appease those who WANT to 'Align'themselves with the Eastern states during 'Business Hours'......Tell me that THIS is not a simple solution................Those companies that WANT/NEED to 'align' themselves with the Eastern States,start work at 8:30am instead of 9:00am..... What's the difference !!!!!No one else in the State is affected.... Off my Soap-Box now

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 02:55:58 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 09, 2018, 09:32:52 amIf there isn't a compelling reason, why do they do it? (which is exactly what DST is )

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 03:02:58 am
content: I'm not sure I follow your line of thought.You said "the rest of business would have soon followed". This is hypothetical. Your opinion about this and mine differ - but it is still just asuggestionon your part.Then you say "why do they do it?" - which is a statement of fact, that something is/has actually being done. Very different to being hypothetical.So I'm left wondering what the exact,specificsubject is - or are you actually talking about two different things here?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 03:22:45 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 10, 2018, 02:23:53 amWhen I was working in Wyndham WA many years ago, the old Landrovers had no airconds, & it was 40C plus during the Dry Season.When I came into the pub after being on the road for a few hours, I would grab a " pub squash"(The Town hotel did the best ones).It almost hissed going downOnly after that could I really enjoy my first beer!When I was in the UK a few years later, I tried most of the ( then) standard English beers.Watneys "Red" at room ( alright cellar ) temperature was like drinking dishwater.We went up to London & found a pub with Swan Lager on tap-----cold!!It was full of Brits of all types enjoying the "Swan", as well as a fair sprinkling of Aussies.The only beer I found which is quite drinkable at room temperature was Newcastle Brown Ale.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 03:31:10 am
content: In the American Southwest there is a special kind of beer. Rodeo cold. A case of beer that has been thrown in the back of a pickup and spent the day in the sun. It isn't as good as a frosty one, but it sure beats nothing.When you like beer almost any condition will do.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 03:31:54 am
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on April 10, 2018, 01:46:59 pmThis seems to be the reason being pushed to introduce DST in WA.As it is, we are on the same, or a similar time zone to most of our important trading partners in the region.We are supposed to dislocate this so as to make it easier to work with the Eastern States.Some folks don't really understand about time zones, at all----- we are supposedly 2 hours behind the ES because we are "backward".

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 04:05:47 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on April 11, 2018, 03:31:10 amI do draw the line somewhere!Some don't ---back in my Wyndham days (it was pretty much a " cow town", where the biggest business was the Abattoir, which operated during the macabrely named "killing season"), we had a party at the " single men's quarters", complete with a keg, & a device called a "Temprite" which kept the beer cold.Next morning, someone asked "Where's Paddy?.We found him lying under the tap of the (long turned off) Temprite, drinking the last trickle of warm ( hell no, hot!) beer .This sort of fits into the original topic, as Wyndham is pretty close to how far East you can get & still be in the WAST zone, so the sun rises quite early.It is also in the Tropics, so that keg would have well & truly warmed up!

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 04:20:10 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 11, 2018, 03:22:45 amThat must have been some time ago. Watney's Red Barrel thankfully disappeared along with the 1970s. It wasn't actually beer, just the cleaning fluid from the brewery lines at Mortlake. (I had my 21st birthday party in the tap room at the Mortlake brewery which conclusively proves that Icanorganise a piss-up in a brewery contrary to the claims of some of my detractors.)

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 05:13:41 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 11, 2018, 03:31:54 amI've never felt that way about WA. It's on the other side of the country for crying out load ... and it's a big country - comparable to the USA.For example -- New York to Los Angeles is nearly13,000km3960km.... and there's 3 hours in time zone differences- Brisbane to Perth is nearly12,000km3660km- Sydney to Perth is nearly11,000km3350km... and there's only 2 hours in time zone differencesIf you look at the meridians of longitude, each 15º represents a 1 hour difference - and the USA have done it right with a 3 hour difference in time zones from either side of the country, but when looking at Australia, Sydney and Perth are closer to the same 3 hour difference than the 2 hour that is currently in place. This has the effect of putting Perth into a position which is almost like DST as a starting point.In my opinion, the idea of pushing Perth into advancing an hour for DST is not sensible. Besides, everybody in the East realises how far away it is and we don't expect WA to beanything butin a significantly different time zone.Queensland, on the other hand...

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 02:47:36 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 11, 2018, 05:13:41 amYour argument is immaculate, but your distances (all of them) are out by a factor of 3 or so.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 02:59:01 am
content: 1 metre = 3.28 feetYeah ... divide by 3.28

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 07:11:23 am
content: Quote from: donmr on April 09, 2018, 07:48:46 pmGo drive around at rush hour in any reasonably inhabited area and tell me humans aren’t still very much living to the same clock in this supposed 24 hour world.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 11:47:41 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 11, 2018, 05:13:41 amYes, obviously Perth is a different kettle-of-fish as they 'are' so distant. (I'm now in WA, South of Perth).And quite a few things ARE sore points with (the real) Western Australians as they feel they are treatedas being behind the times, and backward. (Which they are not). Very isolated though.... yes !Regarding your statement though, (Brumby), " ......the idea of pushing Perth into advancing an hour forDST is not sensible......", it should be noted the the REASON for 'DST' was not just for 'Alignment'.When it 1st came in, in Adelaide, we were told it was 'mainly' to help 'quality of life' for the general public !And being able to finish 'work', and still have some daylight time with our kids/families !...(Some old ladies of that time thinking the extra daylight would fade their curtains quicker.... hahaha...)

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 03:00:56 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on April 12, 2018, 11:47:41 amIt is not quite as nonsensical as it sounds.If you have young kids, they don't understand why they can't stay up when it's "broad daylight".Parents put the kids to bed & pull the curtains so the room is dark.The curtains are exposed to the sunlight when they would otherwise not be, theoretically making them fade faster.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2018, 12:36:47 pm
content: vk6zgo Hmmmm....( I'm avoiding a 'Touch'e ')"VK6" places you in Western Australia !! so what are you against ?I'm saying DO NOT align with the Eastern States. We are so far 'behind'here (time-wise), that the only 'point' left, is 'for the family' that I saidWhat about the 'opposite' when in the morning it is cold & dark at times....A 'cycle' of times can help most. F&^% Grandmas curtains !!!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2018, 08:00:27 am
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on April 15, 2018, 12:36:47 pmI'm equally confused-----what areyouagainst?if you read my previous postings, I'm against DST because I believe it offers no benefits, certainly to WA.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2018, 08:42:02 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 12, 2018, 03:00:56 pmDST makes more efficient use of daylight, which means that you're awake when it's light out. This means DST should keep curtains from fading. Then again, you could just buy some quality.

author: W8LV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2018, 08:57:13 am
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on November 03, 2013, 02:36:01 pmGMT/UCT/Zulu Time Rocks, andLocal Time with goofy, goofy "Spring Ahead/Fall Back" Sucks!73 and All the Best!DE W8LV BillSent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2018, 10:07:30 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on April 16, 2018, 08:42:02 amKids have to go to sleep at the same time by the clock, because they go to school by the clock.If it is still daylight, the little sods don't want to go to sleep, hence parents pull the curtains.The curtains are, as I said, exposed to the sun for longer.As I also said,theoretically, they will fade faster.

author: Tedro
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 11:26:29 pm
content: DST? Good thing I don't have to deal with that where I live...

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 12:29:49 pm
content: vk6zgo Please don't be offended mate... most comments here are (i thought...) were "tongue in cheek", especially when "Grandmas Curtains" came into the discussion.......All I'm saying mate, is that the timezone from Perth to say Sydney/Melbourne is such that it would be 'impractical' to try to "align" for 'business' hours, (and not saying that you think differently!), and that my earlier statement about "Family Time" could be a nice result...I've lived & worked in the Pilbara region of WA in 48-deg-C, to the Snowy Mountains in -15-deg-C, to the Tropics in N.T., and I've learn't the values of varying mornings and evenings, to entertain kids, bring up a family, work F*&^%$# hard and still find time to be a DAD !!!Family is important. Will gladly replace grandmas curtains if need be..... Only stirring mate....

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 03:26:25 am
content: Here we go again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Time to fix the clocks and the forum time once again.WARNING: the forum's Look and Layout time offset's 'Auto Detect' is off by an extra hour and buggy...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 04:24:57 am
content: I loathe DST. Twice a year I have to reset all the clocks, and I'm either wide awake laying in bed or I'm groggy as heck trying to drag myself out of bed in the morning for a few weeks after each change. It's a complete waste of time and effort, it costs untold millions of dollars in lost productivity, it results in a measurable increase in accidents due to people driving while groggy, and it does nothing to affect the amount of daylight we get. We could easily have summer hours for businesses and schools if people decided there was really an advantage to doing so, no reason to screw with the clocks.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 06:46:03 am
content: I just roll with it.Takes me 24 hours to adjust.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 11:25:13 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 04, 2018, 04:24:57 amAh yes, of course. You guys have caught up again!I used tohatethat delay in changing. My call with my boss in Sunnyvale would always get 'adjusted' -He'dstill insist on rolling into the office and starting the call at 9AM PST, it wasmewho would have to hang around the office for another hour in the evening waiting for him. Grrrr!

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 11:40:47 am
content: Major inconvenience when it is got wrong on daylight savings so I set it manually.I had a TV card many years ago and the software on that got it wrong and no setting to adjust the offset.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 10:15:12 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on April 09, 2018, 03:04:13 amIt still makes no sense. Using that logic, why not simply keep BST permanently?I sleep in the north facing side of my house and have good blackout curtains which make my bedroom dark, irrespective of the time of day.GMT is a pain the the bum for me. I start work at 8:30 and finish at 16:51. On the shortest day it's twilight in the morning, but it's pitch black in the evening between November to mid-February. I'd rather cycle home in daylight, at the expense of darker mornings.I could start work an hour earlier, but it would mess up my social life, as I'd need to be in bed much earlier.Changing the clocks certainly does not utilise the available daylight more effectively. On this date, under GMT, sunrise is at 7 and sunset at 16:20, which doesn't suit me at all. If it were still BST, then I would be making much more effective use of the daylight.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 10:47:49 pm
content: I don't care what standard is used, I just want to pick one and stick with it, it's the twice yearly changes that throws my body all out of whack. It's nice that some people can adjust quickly, but I can't. I feel jetlagged for a significant period of time twice a year and get no benefit from it.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 11:35:51 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 04, 2018, 10:47:49 pmI agree. For most controversial debates, i.e. Brexit, immigration, climate change etc. I can see both sides of the argument, even though I have I strong views for one side only, but as far as changing the clocks is concerned, there's no rational reason for doing so. It creates plenty of problems and solves none. The metaphor of cutting off one part of a blanket and sowing it to the other end is nonsensical, because the blanket is always the same length, but day-length changes considerably at high latitudes. The best practise would be to pick a time zone when most people are commuting in daylight for the longest possible time, during the darkest days of the year and stick with it year round. In the summer the extra daylight will never be used and there will always be the problem of sleeping, when it's light outside. If anything BST makes it worse, especially for young children who are difficult to persuade to go to bed in broad daylight. The early sunrise is less of an issue, as once people are asleep, it's unlikely to wake them and that can be fixed with dark curtains.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 07:59:02 pm
content: Quote from: echen1024 on November 04, 2013, 12:34:24 amWould you rather have the summer sunrise at 4 am and the sunset at 8 pm? Personally, I'd rather have sunrise at 5 am and sunset at 9 pm. That gives more usable daylight hours for me, as I am neither awake at 4 am nor asleep at 8 pm. Actually, I think they should have just shifted by an hour and left it that way year-round. There is little reason for 12 am "midnight" to be literally the middle of the night, given the schedules that most people keep.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 11:06:02 pm
content: Quote from: macboy on November 05, 2018, 07:59:02 pmI agree, just shift everything by an hour.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 11:15:34 pm
content: Quote from: macboy on November 05, 2018, 07:59:02 pmIt makes no difference at all, the sun rises and sets at the same times no matter what you do to the clocks. If you want to have more daylight at the end of the day simply get up earlier. It's irrational to change all the clocks and pretend it's an hour earlier.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 11:20:26 pm
content: Do people know thatall of China is in the same time zone?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 11:20:56 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on November 05, 2018, 11:06:02 pmI'd be OK with that.The only reservation I would have, though, is for those jobs where you are working with natural light where darkness in the mid-winter mornings would be an issue.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 11:22:56 pm
content: Doesn't the US have an election tomorrow where they're voting on permanently turning the clocks back ?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 11:27:42 pm
content: There wasn't anything related to that on my ballot. It's a fairly dull election, but midterms often are.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 11:30:07 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 05, 2018, 11:15:34 pmObviously.QuoteSounds nice - but can I get my employer to let me start an hour earlier and leave an hour earlier so I can utilise that daylight for my own purposes? Even if some employees could manage that, the rest couldn't.QuoteQuite the contrary. It's the only practical way for multiple businesses and people to make such a concept work.Voluntary time shifts would end up in a massively obscure, complex and untenable array of working and trading hours that would see such a system fail miserably - if it were to ever get off the ground.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 11:36:24 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on November 05, 2018, 11:30:07 pmEverywhere I've ever worked in my entire professional career has had flex hours, if I want to come in an hour early and leave an hour early that's no problem. It's virtually standard practice in tech, I assumed most engineering jobs would offer that. Cartainly any company worth working for would be willing to offer summer hours if we weren't all forced to muck with the clocks.Loads of businesses have summer hours, it's been that way for as long as I can remember, doesn't seem to cause any issues at all. It's already been off the ground for decades and hasn't failed. The fact that we screw with the clocks on top of that is all the more ridiculous and causes plenty of confusion. Mountains out of mole hills.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 06:09:34 am
content: All of the advantages of DST are local in some way. There are two really good ways to understand this.The first, and most obvious is that the southern hemisphere and northern hemisphere have sunrise and sunset moving in opposite directions. So folks who would otherwise be in the same time zone (similar longitude) will be moving their clocks the opposite directions to get the same benefits. This has to cause confusion in long distance communications. Which is apparently worth it to those involved.The second is to understand why Arizona is the predominant place in the US which does not observe DST. When I moved there I asked locals why they had declined to join the bandwagon, in spite of the confusion it causes in out of state communications at every transition time. The answer was obvious when pointed out. Most of Arizona is miserably hot in the summer, and if you have non-work hours to spend outdoors you want to do that in the cool of the morning, not after work when it is often 110 F (43 C) or hotter. Who wants more hours of panting in the shade, waiting for it to cool down enough to do anything?When you dig into it you always find something like that, with enough people wanting to coerce everyone into joining their particular preference.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 08:03:41 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 05, 2018, 11:36:24 pm...and the rest of the workforce?QuoteYou are talking from a very parochial perspective. "Summer hours" aren't something you will see a lot of in my neck of the woods. Maybe the local swimming pool.Having said that, though, I will accept my observations may also be considered "parochial" and, as such, my opinions may not reflect difficulties you may experience.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 09:04:49 am
content: Quote from: boffin on November 05, 2018, 11:22:56 pmCan we quite tho politics please!