How long DIP will be used ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: alin_im
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 08:58:57 am
content: Hey guys,Today when I was contemplating about electronics on my way to another day for the MAN, i was wondering, do you think that in the next 5-10 years there will be no new ICs that will be produced in a DIP package format ? Everything will be SMD ? Do you think DIP will die ? Are we going to use endless SMD adapters for prototyping ?Kind regards,Alin I.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 09:09:14 am
content: In the "old days", some IC's were in these nice round, metal packages, like this:They are now, somewhat non-existent (ok, now I said this, some posters will show links where they are still being made).So they (DIPs/DILs) probably are going to somewhat gradually fade away.But they have been around for a very long time, so I expect DIP to remain somewhat available.It is already very difficult to get at least some of the latest op-amps in DIP packages, in my experience.Almost no Arm microcontrollers are available in DIPs.As the specifications and frequency increases, other (non-Arm) MCU, also get increasingly rarer, in DIP format.tl;drI think DIP has already disappeared a lot. New chips tend to not be available in DIP format, these days, with some exceptions, such as some PICs.***EDIT: Chips with lots of pins (e.g. > 28 pins, but especially > 40 pins) and high performance (frequency) parts, tend to not be available in DIP format. But I agree that small/simple low pin count IC's, such as LED drivers, logic and some other stuff, is still available in DIP format.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 09:09:56 am
content: As a casual observer to the field of Electrical Engineering (I hope to make it a career one day, but this is beside the point) I sorta wanna say no.But do you mean DIP or do you mean through-hole?DIP is good for hobbyist projects as it's WAY easier to solder than SMD parts, so in terms of common parts for hobby projects, and basic logic, DIP is going to be around for a while.Through hole is here forever. There are TONS of parts for through hole, and even massive almost entirely SMD boards normally have some through hole stuff.If you're talking serious ICs like microcontrollers etc. BGA is probably the future imo, with SMD being for some parts. Really serious parts like CPUs are either BGA or PGA.Or I could be talking bullshit and should go dig a few holes in the wall with my head. iunno

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 09:17:02 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on March 15, 2017, 09:09:56 amEithera) you've never soldered (pin accessible, sane pitch) SMD packages and thus don't realise how much easier it is than soldering through hole packagesb) you are confusing the term SMD with something elsec) you drink too much caffeinesoldering SMD packages like SOIC/SOP and QFP is a piece of cake, easier and faster than trudging through a DIP (DIP is a term reserved for through hole packages in the common parlance) pin by pin.It's only when you get into SMD packages like QFN, BGA or others without accessible pins that things get to be more trouble for the home gamer.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 09:17:17 am
content: DIPs aren't going away any time soon. There are plenty of applications where parts on the PCB need to be through-hole for size/weight, so DIPs make sense if most parts are already through-hole.Most Microchip parts, even the newest ones, are available in DIP so they are clearly still selling.Obviously DIPs have and will continue to reduce in proportion to the whole market, but it's a huge market so still worthwhile.Most of the cost of making chips is tooling and die test - packaging is the last step, so doing a DIP version is a pretty small deal if there is a market.I'd imagine the number of new parts thatonlycome in DIP is getting prettty tiny, but existing parts will be made as long as people are buying them in sufficient volume.

author: SingedFingers
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 09:40:37 am
content: DIP packages are far nicer to knock out quick prototypes for without running a board (which I rarely if ever do).I hope they never die. Mind you saying that, I was trying to repair something with a CA3096 transistor array in it last month and you can't get them any more so I used the SOIC-16 HEF3096 and soldered that to a carrier board.On a side note, has anyone any tips for SMD prototyping as this is the killer for me at the moment? I've tried but not found a good flow or method. So far I've used Roth 1.27mm pitch padboard and kynar which works but is laborious. Plus I have to drink a glass of wine to get rid of the shakes first.The thing is you can't really beat 5 minutes on a solderless breadboard to make sure your DC operating points aren't total shit on a circuit before you go dead bug. But you can't do that with SMD easily and LTspice is a lying sod half the time and doesn't handle device characteristic spread very well. Most of the stuff I do is analogue as well so it means lots of parts which are hard to handle.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 09:45:38 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on March 15, 2017, 09:17:02 amThis is only true if you have a PCB. for breadboarding, veroboard or point-to-point, DIP is much quicker.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 09:49:04 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on March 15, 2017, 09:17:02 amYou're right, I have never done SMD soldering before, and I took the risk that what I was saying may have been bullshit.What I've heard is it's hard to do it due to the pin pitch being tiny.

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 09:52:21 am
content: Quote from: SingedFingers on March 15, 2017, 09:40:37 amI have lots of adapters like this:http://www.ebay.de/itm/252426387396Soldering SMD parts is easy, but then you can use it on a breadboard like a DIP chip, which makes testing and prototyping much easier and faster. Note: when soldering the header pins, plug them into the breadboard, first, then solder them.

author: SingedFingers
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 09:56:22 am
content: Quote from: FrankBuss on March 15, 2017, 09:52:21 amYeah I've been using those. I was wondering if there was a quicker and/or less annoying route

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 09:56:38 am
content: There is still a bunch of designs, which use single sided phenolic PCB, and they are high runners. So no, it wont just go away. That doesnt mean, the part you are using will not go away.It is safer on the long term to design the PCB with SMD parts.

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 09:57:28 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on March 15, 2017, 09:49:04 amNo, it is a matter of the right tools and some practice with the right technique. I like drag-soldering, really fast for lots of pins. Most important: Don't use too much solder and use enough flux, then suboptimal soldering irons work, too.

author: dimkasta
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 09:59:26 am
content: Well if you think that everyone is cutting costs, eventually consolidating parts to the high demand SMD versions is rather a one-way road.About the ease of SMD, it is easy IF you have the right tools. For the average hobbyist that is using an iron and not a station, and does not bother with tip maintenance or flux, SMDs are a PITA.

author: CM800
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 10:07:24 am
content: Quote from: dimkasta on March 15, 2017, 09:59:26 amSimple solution to this:Buy flux, maintain your tips, and save up for a decent soldering station.It's not that bad!http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WELLER-WS-81-UK-SOLDERING-STATION-ANALOGUE-80W-240v-V-/272532133696?hash=item3f742e5740:g:1AQAAOSw8w1X9kjShttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Weller-WSD81-24V-soldering-station-with-an-80W-WSP80-iron-/302243440444?hash=item465f1ce73c:g:AjQAAOSwax5YvJ3CIf you have a job, and actually commit to electronics as hobby, you should be able to afford this kind of thing... Expecially if you're at a level where you need to play with SMD parts and THT components arn't avaliable.If you can solder and work with SMT, I'd say you are guaranteed a job that can afford you to buy one...

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 10:33:18 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 15, 2017, 09:45:38 amYou can keep samples of SMD parts on DIP adapters for easier breadboarding. I have chips up towards QFP-48 (STM32F103CBT6 ARM Cortex-M3 MCU) on such adapter boards ready to go.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 11:04:58 am
content: For high frequency stuff, you may see dip going away, simply because the pins need to be closer together and decoupling capacitors need to be closer together and so on (ex switching regulators running at high frequencies need the inductors as close as possible to the pins and DIP packages make the total length of the traces too long)For regular microcontrollers, opamps etc dip is still perfectly fine, i don't see it going away.

author: alin_im
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 11:08:08 am
content: For SMD work i am using a Hackko 888 and a cheap hot air station like this one:http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-YIHUA-959D-Hot-Air-Gun-650W-SMD-REWORK-STATION-Iron-Soldering-Welding-/162334074941?hash=item25cbdd683d%3Ag%3AN2kAAOSwImRYYNUS&_trkparms=pageci%253A5872a3d7-096e-11e7-9378-74dbd180ced2%257Cparentrq%253Ad19ea42f15a0a5e0b6fff8fbfff38baa%257Ciid%253A25Another alternative setup for what you recommended (weller irons)

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 11:08:17 am
content: Yea, my experience is more with computer science.That and useless facts. I probably know enough useless facts to go on Jeopardy.

author: Codebird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 12:58:36 pm
content: There are certain chips which are made in such volume - the 555, the 741, the LM339 - that I think they will always be available in DIP form.

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 01:02:18 pm
content: I hope DIP doesn't go away.There really isn't anything like it right now.DIP is cool because you can breadboard with it, and it is socketed, which means in the field you can easily swap out bad chips, with anything else you have to have the chip on a board with a socket and that gets complex if you have lots of chips on a board.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 01:05:16 pm
content: N(e)XP(eria) put out an EOL for all DIP devices years ago. Only TI and ST still sell them.They're going away. You have to accept it.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 06:35:30 pm
content: Some years back I was stuck in a thru-hole mentality. Now I avoid it at every opportunity.My boards tend to be small (2.5"x3.8") and 2 or 4 layers. I can hand solder most SMDs but it is faster to cook them on a hotplate. It just needs to have an uninterrupted heated surface as large as the boards. Put down solder paste, place the components, set the board on the hotplate and crank it all the way up. When the solder flows, remove the board without jostling the parts. Simple and completely lacking in elegance.So, I converted a Black & Decker InfraWave toaster oven to a reflow oven. I don't know if it is better or worse but it does allow for larger boards.Drag soldering works well. Look at that big clubby tip! You really don't want some small pointy thing. Flux and just a dab of solder on the tip is all it takes.So, why the hotplate and reflow oven? Simple! When there are a lot of components, it simply takes too long to solder them by hand. Just placing the components in the solder paste is time consuming. BTW, you can use paste solder with a regular iron as well. This is particularly handy for small 0805s (and smaller). Place the component, hold it down with curved tweezers and hit the junction with an iron. If you have the tweezers perpendicular to the part, you can solder both ends without having to reorient things.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 08:24:33 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on March 15, 2017, 01:05:16 pmAnd Analog, and Linear, and ...There will always be a place for DIP in high precision and low current ICs. Heat is the enemy of precision and the much lower thermal capacity of SMD versus DIP packages can make the difference if you're in the uV and pA territory. Plus, try bending a pin off the board for low leakage on a SOIC package the way you would on a DIP package when you're trying to measure pAs. You'll often see high precision boards that are mostly SMD with a few strategic DIP packages.And then there's big discretes and power ICs. At some point you have to come off the board and bolt on a heatsink and until you get to the point where you literally bolt cables on too you're going to want to solder the pins through the board for simple mechanical integrity. TO-220 and his friends will never die.On the other hand, I can't think of a single recentdigitalchip that was anything but surface mount.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 08:51:40 pm
content: I think you underestimate the exposed power pad on the bottom of a soic.https://cds.linear.com/docs/en/packaging/Linear_Technology_Thermal_Resistance_Table.pdfFrom what I see mostly only opto-stuff still comes in dip. Or dip with the pins hammered flat.Or a high soic package.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 09:06:08 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on March 15, 2017, 08:51:40 pmWhat exposed power pad? Not a single SMD op amp in my parts box has a thermal pad. They do however get almost twice as hot as the equivalent DIP parts.

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 10:28:16 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on March 15, 2017, 08:24:33 pmI think Microchip still produces all chips as DIP, for example announced last week, their new PIC18F “K42” series, with lots of goodies:https://www.microchip.com/pressreleasepage/PIC18K42-family-press-releaseAnd they are cheap, too. E.g. for EUR 1.72 single unit price you'll get a DIP chip with 16 kB flash, 1 kB RAM, 24 x 12 bit ADCs and one 5 bit DAC, running pretty fast for a PIC up to 64 MHz:http://www.digikey.de/short/322b0r

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 10:43:31 pm
content: I don't know why all of the focus on soldering. Soldering is harder on fine pitch parts, but not horribly so. The real killer for DIPs is making the boards. If you buy the boards it isn't as much of an issue though it may affect the board cost, but if you are rolling your own drilling the boards either requires good equipment or is a PITA.Through hole stuff will gradually go away. But just like vacuum tubes, you will still be able to buy at least some parts in through hole format forever.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2017, 02:24:14 pm
content: I noticed when searching Digikey a lot of discrete components are SMD only now, which is harder as a hobbyist as SMD is much harder to solder if you don't have a premade PCB with a proper foot print. ex: you can't easily use perfboard like you can with through hole. I have some SMD parts that I figured I could just solder leads to but I totally underestimated how hard that is. Part of it is improper tools/work area. If I could find a way to make it stay put it would not be as hard.On the flip side getting PCBs made is so cheap now days I plan to just make myself a bunch of breakout boards at some point then convert my SMD stuff to through hole, for smaller projects/prototyping.Nice thing of SMD is when it comes to mass production though, and making stuff smaller.

author: SingedFingers
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2017, 02:43:57 pm
content: Roth sell 1.27mm pitch perfboard. Has holes and everything. Lines up for SOIC, 0805, SOT23 nicely and kynar will pass through it.Problem is it's harder than normal prototyping.I'm going to give it a go though as it's a ton cheaper.

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 16, 2017, 02:48:22 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on March 16, 2017, 02:24:14 pmFor things like diodes or transistors in SOT223 etc., there are adapter boards for cheap on eBay:http://www.ebay.de/itm/332133544231Same for the bigger parts, like TQFP.If the part has only 2 terminals, it is easy to solder it to header pins with a tweezer, as I've done with some resistors (needed more than 10 Meg and had only 1 Meg with wires, but a few 3.83 Meg SMD resistors) :

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2017, 11:25:46 pm
content: For breadboarding and veroboard, soic/tssop breakout's are your friend.https://www.google.com.au/search?q=soic+breakout&newwindow=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2017, 11:33:45 pm
content: As long as we need to repair vintage computers like the Commodore 64, I hope they'll still make DIP jellybean parts.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 01:00:38 am
content: I have thought about this before. You have to separate newly produced goods of state of the art design, old low margin products, and repair parts/hobbyist.The simple answer is they will be around as long as its profitable for somebody to produce them.People still sell tubes and NTE will still sell you a new germanium transistor.As the level of integration goes up and PCB sizes get smaller and smaller they will naturally go away. Would you build a PC with 64 ram chips, 50 chips for a video card, and dozens of others for the peripherals? No. A modern chipset is just a few IC's and you have a fully functional PC. Pop open a IBM 5150 with disk controllers and you have a bucket load of dip chips all over. Well over a hundred. Manufacturing technology moved on. One day we will move of from the DIP and it will be relegated to the specialty market just like tubes and such.I think its still a long way off though. They still sell them by the truckload. One day though they will become a novelty.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 12:58:12 pm
content: That sums it up, and the big question is who is the most vital market for DIP?Engineering schools favor DIP and thru hole because breadboarding in used in most intro to electronics courses, and parts are often not reused.The US puts out >30,000 EE and related degrees annually and that doesn't count the rest of the world or other types of education that have hands on labs.If colleges give up on them, a consistent market will disappear and hasten the death of DIP. Hobby and repair for old technology can adapt to SMT but the education market will buy DIP if still made, even at higher prices, rather than retool entire labs for SMT prototyping to fit novice students.In 1990s, the LM741 was <= 5c each, today its 60c each, brand name from Digikey. Many op amps can easily outdo it for half as much cost, but the 741 is still core in most analog curricula.https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-101-introductory-analog-electronics-laboratory-spring-2007/labs/Its easier to find DIP as well established parts of the 'golden age' of analog, rather than new designs.Quote from: calexanian on March 18, 2017, 01:00:38 am

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 02:11:28 pm
content: I do believe NXP is phasing out all DIP parts. Their logic datasheets were updated to remove all mentions of DIP order options.For general purpose logic parts not a big issue, TI and other vendors probably will continue to make DIP versions.But it's a bigger problem for obscure old micro's from Philips still occasionally produced by NXP. They were available in DIP, now have to switch to PLCC...

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 06:03:09 am
content: Quote from: hans on March 18, 2017, 02:11:28 pmNXP has stated that they are getting out of the Logic chip business because margins are too low and it does not fit their future process plans. We were using them and we got a letter from them essentially saying that. We just moved everything over to TI. They will not miss our little drop in the bucket. As far as 74 series logic we are only using in large quantity are 74HC574's in our legacy products. 2803's as well.. The function of the 574's has been replaced by higher pin count low cost micros or port expanders. We have moved away from the 2803's on new designs in favor of dual channel fet relay drivers because they are smaller and not as susceptible to latchup.