NO MORE "SMART" APPLIANCES - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: farlander762
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 12:33:17 am
content: I hate them all.The dishwasher complains if it isn't level enough, or if the water doesn't get hot fast enough, and the stupid soap cup never opens right. AND WHY DOES IT NEED TO SING TO ME!!!!The washing machine also complains about water temperature, or a load imbalance. The motor control wizardry seems to be too weak for the motor it's driving. AND WHY DOES IT NEED TO SING TO ME!!!The dryer has hell with the dryness sensor...GAAA!!! That's it's one flipping job!!!The refrigerator, oh the refrigerator...I hate it the most! Two ice makers that never want to make ice, one of which can never decide if crushed or cubed. The ice makers have heated tubes to keep the water from freezing on its way to the ice maker, and they fail. IT even spits water from the door sometimes while being told to dispense ice!! The control system can be deprogrammed down to some fail-safe state with a combination of button presses but can only be restored to full function by replacing the motherboard. Somebody please tell me why I need a refrigerator with a motherboard??? It annihilates fruits and vegetables in days, I haven't found the setting to stop that. It always wants its filter changed ($60 each). It even had to have a door seal changed on the freezer. Every systems seems to be tied to every other system by an under-powered power supply that is of course part of the motherboard.I want my appliances dumb. Real dumb. Tired of this overpriced, under-performing garbage.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 12:48:57 am
content: Yea it's marketing, product differentiation - we gotta one-up the competition with some feature they don't have. But sure, maybe a line of super dumb appliances would be a way to do that eventually ...

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 07:52:55 pm
content: You sound like that old Ozzy Ozborne reality show where he would get frustrated and confused by modern tech.Everything has a microprocessor, been that way for at least 20 years! Don't like it? Wash your dishes in the sink, use an old washtub and washboard with a crank ringer and clothes line, and get an ice box.You just wait till all the yuppie hipsters get their way and you have to pair your phone and subscribe to data farming to toast your damn bread.THEN, you can complain, untill then, RTFM!

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 08:28:13 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on September 08, 2021, 12:48:57 amThe one thing I do want brought back...the fully automatic Sunbeam toaster.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 08:38:42 pm
content: When my modern US made clothes dryer failed 3 months after the warranty ended, it was a trivial fault on the single digital board that contained the controls, processor, and display. Luckily, contrary to my normal practice, I had purchased an extended warranty: the normal cost to replace the board (not field-repairable) was roughly 2/3 the purchase price. The “10 year warranty” prominently noted on the front panel only covered the stuff the company actually knew how to do, essentially the mechanical drive train. I replaced the previous unit (same brand, but the company had merged into a different corporation) after 35 years, and the electromechanical timer/control switch was still original. How smart does a clothes dryer need to be? The old one had a moisture sensor that worked as well as the new one.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 08:49:11 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on September 08, 2021, 07:52:55 pmWhenever I see someone use the phrase "Ok boomer" I instantly think that they're an idiot and wonder if they even realize how dumb it sounds? I'm a generation younger than the boomers. It's going to be funny when you get old and the kids start insulting you for being out of touch with the latest fads, it will happen.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 08:55:42 pm
content: Quote from: farlander762 on September 08, 2021, 12:33:17 amI also get annoyed by some of the tech. I love technology, but I really hate technology for the sake of technology, especially when I know the underlying machine is a flimsy piece of crap that is almost guaranteed to break down in a few years and probably have close to zero service information. I do love my Roomba vacuums but even those drive me crazy sometimes, if they get stuck they sit there and beep at me repeatedly for 10 minutes, I can't stand it! Why why why must it keep nagging me? I'll get up and help it out next time I get up, vacuuming the floor is not an emergency. I have zero interest in any of my household appliances connecting to the internet, I added a wireless notification to my washer and dryer that allow my Home Assistant server to tell when they've finished and ping my phone, other than that it's electromechanical timers in everything.Look for some older appliances and pick those up, it's not too hard to find stuff from 10-20 years ago that has minimal "smarts", and if you're willing to work on it yourself you can keep it going almost indefinitely. Lots of people still using 30-40+ year old washers and dryers, lots of old fridges and dishwashers around still. Yeah they use a little more energy but unless you have 8 kids and run everything constantly I doubt you'll even notice the increase on the bill.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 08:59:49 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 08, 2021, 08:38:42 pmThe moisture sensor is actually really clever, the one in my ~15 year old Neptune dryer is virtually identical to the one I fixed in the similar age GE dryer my friend had, and pretty much the same as a much older dryer I worked on. It's just a solid state relay that turns off when damp clothes bridge a pair of contacts at the front of the drum and it controls power to the timer motor when in the auto dry portion of the cycle. The more often wet clothes touch those contacts the less time the timer motor runs and the slower the knob advances. It's very simple and yet quite effective.

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 11:55:03 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 08, 2021, 08:49:11 pmOK Gen X-er(Fellow Gen X-er here)

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 11:59:15 pm
content: Quote from: farlander762 on September 08, 2021, 12:33:17 amI feel you. My “smart” range hood has LED lights, with two brightness level settings: “Bright” (works fine) and “Dim” (flickers annoyingly). Of course, I RTFM, which explains that the flickering is OK, since only half of the full wave cycle is applied to the lights in “Dim” mode. On one hand, GE bothered to add a Bluetooth module to connect the hood with the range, on the other one they decided to dim the LED lights with a half wave rectifier…Not all “smart” implementations are bad, though, and sometimes they can actually help you identify issues. One day, my LG “smart” fridge stopped freezing. It displayed an error code (which I searched online) and it turned to be a defrost issue. Basically, the 1000W heating element that melts the ice from the cooling coils (when detected), the fuse in series with it, the defrost sensor, or the “logic board” were bad. I checked the fuse - it was bad (the heating element was good, and so seemed to be the thermistor). Unfortunately, on my particular LG model, you can only change the whole thing (heating element + fuse + sensor) in one piece, which I did as soon as Amazon delivered the thing at my door. Better than waiting for the LG service guys to show up or poking around trying to figure why the fridge was not working…Meanwhile, my old school GE fridge, which we decided to keep as a backup in the basement (as opposed to “recycle for free” as suggested when we got the LG fridge delivered) works just fine, with no issues whatsoever (it has a similar defrost system, I imagine…)

author: farlander762
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 12:30:22 am
content: HA!!! I'm the last year model of Gen X (1980). No Boomer here.I do Read the F'ing Manuals, hell, I WRITE manuals at work. For mechanical/hydraulic devices but I have still been known to knock a manual out if the system needs it. I run/maintain Linux and Windows computers (many are dual boot) in my spare time, am a commercial pilot and A&P mechanic (inactive), and can kind of troubleshoot circuit boards.I'm not afraid of technology, major appliances just suck when digified. And I doubt they save any power, probably use more with all that unnecessary crap running.Several years ago, my parents replaced their old GE fridge because it was no longer in vogue and my dad exclaimed that he had owned that fridge for half his life, he was 72 at the time...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 12:46:35 am
content: Speaking with service technicians (of a certain age...), they will tell you that modern appliances are absolutely not meant to last as long as the old ones did... Fridge compressors sometimes came with 20 year warranties, try to find that today...

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 03:26:37 am
content: Quote from: farlander762 on September 09, 2021, 12:30:22 amMostly that probably true. About a month ago we got a new clothes dryer, this time with a heat pump instead of a ~2kW or so electric heating element. This new one uses maybe a quarter of the power of the old one (although it does run for maybe twice as long...) and it has an inverter driven compressor. What's more, you can put it in any room in the house because it doesn't discharge any warm moist air. It collects all the water in a slide out tank. Typically 2-3 litres of water per load. It's a great dryer, but we'll just have to see if it makes it to 20 years like the two previous dryers did.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 03:33:45 am
content: I think if I lived in a place as warm as Australia I'd put up a clothes line out back and not bother having a dryer at all. I have too many trees that drop sap and it rains half the year here but when I was a kid my grandmother had a clothes drying rack in her back yard that she used in the summer. That's even simpler than even the simplest dryers and uses no energy at all. Those heat pump dryers are intriguing but it will be interesting to see how reliable they are in the long run. It's certainly possible for a hermetic refrigeration system to be extremely reliable but when they do break down they are expensive to fix.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 06:48:38 am
content: I'm actually with you on this one. I want my TV to just be a display, it has one job and that is to take an input, decode it and display it. It should just do that one job well. I don't even care about the sound.Same with everything else. I'm all for telemetry and telecommand on things like air purifiers and robot vacuum cleaners (I own both), but they should be able to do their job entirely independently and without reliance on any cloud services or internet access at all. If it doesn't, then it's a fail in my books.It has nothing to do with being a "boomer" (of which I'm not), rather about making smart product design choices as the manufacturer and smart choices as the consumer.What's the point of a "smart" outlet or switch that doesn't work if the WiFi or internet goes down? Sometimes the simplest options are the smartest ones. For example, I have outdoor PIR sensors which detect when I arrive home, the outdoor lights automatically come on if it's dark. Same in the garage, if there is movement inside or I open the roller door, all the internal lights come on. I can also activate them by toggling a wall switch. Simples.I will laugh at the day when everyone's crappy consumer routers stop working because they've got too many devices hanging off the WiFi, or when their /24 IP range runs out of addresses.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 08:51:28 am
content: Quote from: Caliaxy on September 08, 2021, 11:59:15 pmYeah, that too. All that 'smart' technology, fancy screens and connecting apps and yet when they need to report an issue it's by obscure error codes.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 08:56:14 am
content: It’s the same with web design user-interface and ‘cloud’ services.Most of them are spec’ed by managers aiming to lift the bottom line into profit, while the implementation is being done by first & second year graduates in Java and python using ‘the latest’ web tools.Unfortunately,noneof them have heard of usability or human factors design.They’re only looking at profit centres, cost centres are so 80s.

author: Daixiwen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 08:57:48 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on September 09, 2021, 06:48:38 amWell the good thing now is that if it can't do it's job right longer, you can still watch TV on your fridge, your microwave or your toaster

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 09:47:53 am
content: Count me in.Even though I generally like technology, I hate it for just being there for no reason.If it has that one function, put one button on it. I don't need to remotely access my toaster or fridge. I don't need a programmable RGB lightshow on them, either. I don't need a colour OLED display on them.However I do like stuff that does not break easily, even if it is more expensive.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 05:18:07 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 08, 2021, 08:49:11 pmAt least our generations grew up with the internet and computers. Sure "fads" come and go and we all get "old fashioned", but actual tech progress isn't a fad...it's inevidable.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 05:31:49 pm
content: The boomers grew up with computers too, in a sense. My dad used one in college, sure it took up a whole room but it was a computer, and you had to be a lot smarter to use one in those days than you do now. That generation laid the groundwork and invented most of the concepts that went into modern computers. I know plenty of old farts who are tech savvy and know how to use all the latest gadgets, they're not idiots. Technology is great when it serves a useful purpose, I love technology when it makes my life easier or takes care of doing something boring and tedious so I don't have to do it. What I don't like is technology just for the sake of technology, adding complexity, cost and potential failure points with dubious benefit. Replacing something simple that works with something complicated just because we can. I really like having a computer controlling the fuel injection in my car, it's far superior in almost every way than a carburetor. I love having a smartphone, a versatile communication device and multipurpose tool that I can carry with me everywhere I go. The internet is great, I love being able to access datasheets for all sorts of parts, order items or check on the security cameras at my house from anywhere in the world. On the other hand I see no value in connecting my dishwasher or my refrigerator to the internet. I don't need or want an app for absolutely everything. I don't like it when "smart" devices try to predict what I want because invariably they get it wrong and create extra work for me at least as often as they get it right. I don't like it when a stream of frequent updates is constantly making changes to the look and functionality, it makes the device feel like some person's half baked hobby project that is never finished and I resent the waste of my time, even if in small amounts having to learn and adapt to some new change I never asked for. I refuse to buy hardware that depends on cloud infrastructure to work, I've already seen numerous cases of a company going out of business or discontinuing a product line which results in a bunch of bricked hardware because the proprietary infrastructure is gone.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 05:39:59 pm
content: Quote from: Caliaxy on September 08, 2021, 11:59:15 pmSee I would consider that a complete fail. A "smart" device that displays a cryptic error code? Why didn't it just display "fault detected with freezer automatic defrost system" or something along those lines? What good is all that smart stuff if you still have to search online to figure out what the error code means? Frankly I think there is no excuse for error codes when the device has the ability to communicate something human readable.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 06:35:36 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 09, 2021, 05:31:49 pmYou misunderstand, see the "hipster yuppie" part of my original comment. I'm wholely against IOT BS and fear any proliferation of it. However OP appears to be complaining about digital appliances in general, which have existed for decades. None of the things he is complaining about are IOT machines (unless I'm wrong). There is nothing wrong with digital tech, but people who have trouble understanding computers and the internet tend to complain about anything with a processor, regardless of it being IOT or not. This stereotype seemed to fit the OP on first glance hence the mocking and saying "Ok Boomer".Digital tech isn't the problem and calling normal stuff "smart devices" is ignoring the modern term which appears to only refer to IOT. Just wanting machines to devolve is ignoring the fundamental issues such as planned obselescance, right to repair, exc. They could build a modern EM washer and dryer...it would still be crap and use proprietary parts.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 06:50:53 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 09, 2021, 05:39:59 pmNo. There's no obligation for every device to have an alphanumeric display that say exactly what you want. That would be counterintuitive and needlessly complicate machines that don't need them, like a fridge (barring actual "smart" fridges with the full computer in the door like Samsung), or a microwave oven, exc. Error codes have existed since the dawn of the computers and are not "cryptic" if you can simply look up what they mean, especially with the internet.The problem is when companies hide the error codes from the public deliberately, then it becomes a problem. I encourage you to look into the Taylor ice cream machine scandal, one of the biggest right-to-repair issues currently going on.EDIT: The fridge in question might have a full color display panel, if that's the case, yeah, should display words, but the rest of the argument still stands if the info is readily available, it's not an issue.

author: dave j
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 08:27:26 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 09, 2021, 05:39:59 pmHuman readable error messages have to be translated into multiple languages, error codes don't. Human readable error messages can also be ambiguous unless you use language that is so precise/technical that they cease to be understandable by most humans. E21 and E22 can both unambiguously refer to a "fault detected with freezer automatic defrost system" but in different parts of that subsystem.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2021, 08:32:10 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on September 09, 2021, 06:50:53 pm"Smart" to me implies either an advanced display, or internet connectivity, either one of which could be used to tell you exactly what is wrong. Cryptic error messages are one of my pet peeves, especially when they are not well documented. I would have thought that after the Therac-25 fiasco every engineer out there would understand the importance of clear and documented error messages. If something connects to the internet and or has an app there is no reason not to just have it tell you exactly what the error message is trying to indicate.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 08:10:50 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on September 09, 2021, 06:35:36 pmIt's a lot harder to make basic electro-mechanical proprietary parts that can't be copied by third party manufacturers. These parts are also a lot easier to repair, using the most basic of techniques which almost anyone can employ.It's a lot easier for manufacturers to include planned obsolescence with MCUs, as they are much harder to reverse engineer and require specialist knowledge and tools, and you can brick a device that is mechanically sound with ease.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 03:14:54 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on September 09, 2021, 08:56:14 amMy problem with any "cloud based" IoT thing is not that it depends on the cloud, per se, but that the vendors offer "Cloud connectivity! Turn your lights on from anywhere in the world!" for free and then they realize, "holy shit! We spend a fuck-ton of money for Amazon Web Services and that costs more than what we make on the sale of the hardware, so now we have to tell our customers that they need to pay $5 per month to continue to use the product! And they're all like, 'the thing costs $25, fuck it, it's going in the trash' and NOW WHAT?"I have a Wink power strip (with an Electric Imp IoT thing in it) and there's no way to access it without the Wink cloud service which they realized was a cost sink so they started charging for it. Thankfully the two switchable outlets have actual buttons for control, so it still works as a power strip. But there are other things, like whatever Lowe's was pushing, that just shut down and all of the hardware was useless.The only IoT devices I can think of which do not require cloud access, in fact do not even offer such capability, are the IKEA Tradfri products. You can even use themwithout a smartphone, as the controls (switches, dials) pair with the device (light bulb, switch) directly. To get smartphone control you have to buy the hub. And even then there's no direct way to control them over the internet; if you use Apple HomeKit you can configure something to be a HomeKit hub (separate from the Tradfri hub) and then allow internet access through that. Which I don't do, because I don't need to turn on the lights for the cats when I'm away from the house.oh yeah, the Ikea products just work. And they're half the price of the Belkin shit.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 03:52:44 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on September 09, 2021, 05:18:07 pmBut my Boomer generation INVENTED computers (*) and the internet.(*) "Modern" computers, anyway. The Eniac etc. were before my time. We all stand on the shoulders of giants!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 04:25:27 pm
content: You really have to keep your wits about you these days, if you want to buy a product that doesn't "self obsolete" way before it is mechanically worn out...Anything cloud connected that doesn't need to be? Just say no...

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 06:35:02 pm
content: Before we get smart appliances, can we get smart users?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 06:50:15 pm
content: Quote from: Neilm on September 10, 2021, 06:35:02 pmThat's definitely asking too much.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 06:58:44 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 10, 2021, 06:50:15 pmBefore being allowed to take the thing home, you have to prove you are smarter than the washing machine.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 07:00:55 pm
content: Quote from: Neilm on September 10, 2021, 06:35:02 pmIf the users were smart, then they'd refuse to buy so called Smart devices. The fact that people do buy smart devices shows proves that they're basically stupid but want to pretend that they're somehow smart.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 08:30:19 pm
content: I'm so old I remember when "my toaster runs unix" was just a silly joke.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 08:39:38 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on September 10, 2021, 07:00:55 pmWhen all of the products on offer are "Smart" and you need to get something immediately to replace a device that failed, what are ya gonna do?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 08:41:32 pm
content: I thought that “IOT” meant “internet of toasters”.

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 09:21:45 pm
content: Quote from: Neilm on September 10, 2021, 06:35:02 pmWell, it might not be an actual choice but a lack of alternative.In my case, I bought the LG fridge based on it’s size (had to fit into a constrained space between and under the kitchen cabinets), appearance & ergonomics (French doors are a joy to use, and so is the drawer-freezer at the bottom) and the size of the water dispencer/ice-maker (small, so it doesn’t occupy half of the door storage space). Only two models fit the requirements: a General Electric (which I favored) and an LG (which wife favored). I’m not stupid, so we got the LG.Integrated wifi capability wasn’t on my list, it just happened to be there. Thinking about it, it’s not actually a bad idea. The service technician can diagnose the issues over the internet and come prepared with the right parts and tools (wasn’t the case, I fixed it myself with my bare hands, screw driver and Fluke 87V, using the fridge self-diagnosing feature; offline, of course – I don’t need LG to know how often I change the air filter). But not everybody is tech-savvy.For what it matters, the LG is made in China and the GE is “Proudly made in America” (according to a big sticker on the door), but I doubt that makes any difference since GE is now a Chinese company (they were acquired by Haier a few years ago) and the innards might come from the same factories anyways.As far as the hood is concerned, I wanted something as silent as possible, with an as high as possible CFM (cubic feet per minute) number, which could be easily converted between recirculating and outside venting modes. I wasn’t after a glass-touch panel, blue tooth and dimming lights, it just happened to come with them.Of course, I haven’t connected it with the stove because I was afraid it might talk to the dishwasher behind my fridge’s back and I don’t want my coffee maker to feel left out an get upset in the morning when I need it the most.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 11:14:16 pm
content: “I’m smart…”If they have to tell you they’re smart, they’re probably not.It soon becomes obvious.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 12:51:24 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on September 10, 2021, 08:39:38 pmBuy used. Craigslist is a good place to start.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 02:43:05 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on September 10, 2021, 07:00:55 pmJokes aside, I don't really think that's a fair assessment. There are a lot of intelligent people that are not technical. My mom is a good example of that, she's very intelligent, college educated, taught calculus, algebra, trig, and other topics for years and has run a business as a private tutor for about the last 20 years. She is absolutely hopeless with technology though, I'm constantly going over there doing trivial things like plugging the cable into the printer or showing her how to reboot her phone. She's not stupid at all but I would never get her a "smart" appliance, I'd be getting support calls every other day

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 04:51:33 am
content: One thing I can't stand is when these appliances are set to make decisions where the developer thinks they know better than me and deny me access to settings or adjustments that I could set before.I'll only complement it "smart" when it is worthy of what I want it to do automatically where adjustments and thresholds and every other aspect could be set to my satisfaction.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 12:49:36 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on September 12, 2021, 04:51:33 amTrue, in some cases "smart" really means "dumbed down".My general feeling is that when the primary goal of the product is tracking you for advertising purposes, I really can't get excited about it - no matter how good it is in other respects, including getting "smart" right.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 04:54:03 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 10, 2021, 08:10:50 amReally? You don't think they'de figure it out? I mean sure, it's easier to hide behind code, but they could just put a bunch of relays on a board and hide it in a black epoxy filled box, with numbered wires all the same color.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 06:33:26 pm
content: It's not like the functions that control a typical piece of white goods are that complex. The average "maker" with an Arduino could probably implement the code to control a dishwasher, washing machine or clothes dryer's basic functions without too much difficulty.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 06:50:04 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on September 08, 2021, 07:52:55 pmWhat part of "has a microprocessor" means that the interface should use low contrast gray on gray, or bright blue LED indicators?Modern appliances are failures of human factors engineering. Some of these "improvements" like monostable shifters have killed people.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 06:52:28 pm
content: That low contrast gray on slightly darker gray thing seems to have spread everywhere. It's like someone took the guidelines for the minimum contrast ratio and interpreted it as the recommended contrast ratio and used it everywhere. I remember an old laptop I had with a less than spectacular display, I couldn't even read the text on some sites.

author: MazeFrame
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 01:14:48 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 09, 2021, 05:39:59 pmYup! What is the point in having a full color touch display when it has the same functionality as a basic beeper or blink code LED?

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 05:35:44 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on September 12, 2021, 04:54:03 pmHighly unlikely, since it would be very difficult to ensure a precise MTBF using electromechanical components. Also such a device would be incredibly easy for anyone with a battery and a test lamp to reverse engineer.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 07:35:19 pm
content: Have you ever tried to reverse engineer the electromechanical timer in a washing machine or dishwasher? It's harder than it sounds, even when there's usually a schematic with a timing diagram tucked inside the control panel. They have about a dozen different sets of contacts and a complex cam assembly to sequence everything.

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 09:17:29 pm
content: Quote from: MazeFrame on September 13, 2021, 01:14:48 pmSorry for not explaining sooner - my particular LG model doesn't have a touch-screen, just a plain, simple numeric (white) LED display behind a stainless steel looking plastic cover (that matches the rest of the fridge), some single LEDs and also some soft-touch buttons. You can see the digits only when they are lit. Looks kind of cool. When they don't display error codes, they show the temperature (in the fridge and in the freezer). That only happens about 10 seconds after you adjust it with the touch buttons. Never bother to check how you enter the wifi password...I remember seeing a fridge in the store with a big screen on one of the doors (like an airport arrivals/departures panel) but I though it was just for advertising (it was displaying the local weather and some commercials), never imagined they really sell that thing. I also remember seeing a fridge that was dispensing not only ice and cold water, but also hot coffee (but I'm digressing)A really smart fridge should be able to display messages like: "Slide your credit card to clear the replace air filter warning"

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 09:28:01 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on September 09, 2021, 06:48:38 amI tend to agree with this, for the most part. My home theater system consists of components that only do one thing--the projector only projects an image on the screen and the receiver only outputs sound to the speakers. Only the streaming devices (FireTV, AppleTV) have connections to the network and if one or both of them fails, I can still watch movies on Blu-ray or from movies ripped onto my media PC. Nothing is "smart" and everything has separate remote controls that all must be used together, but that's the way I like it.The one "smart" appliance I have that I actually like is my dryer. It has the ability to notify me via a text message when it turns off. Since I'm rarely in earshot when it's running, that's a nice feature to have. If that feature ever stops working, it won't affect the basic operation of the dryer.When shopping for appliances, I tend to favor reliability and long life over gee-whiz gizmos that I'll never use anyway. That's getting harder and harder as companies continually look for ways to build things more cheaply, sacrificing robustness in favor of gizmos that are often just software that doesn't add to the material cost of the product. I'm currently shopping for a new dishwasher and have found that even the high-end models from brands like Bosch and Miele have flimsy dish racks that look and feel like they won't last long.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 10:15:41 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on September 13, 2021, 09:28:01 pmI purchased a power board with master and slave sockets. The TV is plugged into the master socket and when switched on, the power board detects the increase in power consumption and switches on all the slave sockets, which is basically the amplifier, subwoofer and docking station to the Nintendo switch. This also works in reverse; switching off the TV also switches everything else off. The only thing running all the time is my Raspberry Pi which is my media player.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 10:40:36 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on September 13, 2021, 09:28:01 pmI connected a relay across the motor in my dryer and wired that across the reed switch in a wireless door/window sensor. At that point I could easily integrate it into my home automation and I set up Home Assistant to send a notification to my phone when the dryer stops.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 10:55:39 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on September 13, 2021, 10:15:41 pmThat's an interesting way of handling power switching. One of the advantages of my setup is that no one else in the house knows how to operate it, so I get to always be in control.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 10:59:22 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 13, 2021, 10:40:36 pmI had a similar setup with my old dryer. The new one came with the text notification built-in, so I didn't need to implement my former setup. I bought the current dryer not because it had that feature, but because it had a stainless steel drum--the notification feature was a byproduct of buying the higher-end model.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 03:27:16 am
content: Why do you guys need to know when your dryer stops. What is the deal with rushing to get stuff out of the dryer

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 03:37:53 am
content: Quote from: Bud on September 14, 2021, 03:27:16 amIf you let clothes sit in the dryer they get wrinkled. If you're not married you might not know, I never used to care in my younger days but women tend to be fussy about their clothes. Also many times I've got another load in the washer while the first load is drying and I don't want to forget to put it in the dryer. I have a similar notification on my washer for that reason. Also I'm an engineer and I like gadgets, home automation is just another of many vaguely related hobbies.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 05:20:13 am
content: To get around when to transfer from washer to dryer you could always have a combination washer/dryer. Presumably the dry cycle would automatically follow on from wash. So when it conks out you are really stuffed. It's like those multi function printer / scanner / fax / kitchen sink things. So much more scope for something to go wrong and then you have to either go get a separate scanner or printer or whatever in addition, or just chuck it out.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 01:32:47 pm
content: Most modern clothes dryers have a selectable mode where the drum will periodically rotate for a reasonable time after the drying stops to inhibit wrinkling. This was added before they became smart.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 03:17:10 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 14, 2021, 03:37:53 amMy wife and I have done our clothes washes separately for many years. She got tired of me shrinking her socks and melting her underwear. Doing it this way helps maintain domestic tranquility.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 03:47:37 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 14, 2021, 01:32:47 pmMy non-smart dryer has that, and it also has a "keep fresh" feature which takes cold water and spritzes it into the tub (well, it's a front-load) on occasion and then tumbles the load. It really works.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 03:48:23 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on September 14, 2021, 03:27:16 am"Tell me you're single and live alone without telling me you're single and live alone."

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 03:52:18 pm
content: Quote from: Caliaxy on September 13, 2021, 09:17:29 pmThis is why you should never buy a smart refrigerator(warning: foul language, but hilarious).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 05:08:02 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on September 14, 2021, 03:17:10 pmShe banished me from laundry duty for the same reason, and doesn't seem to mind washing my clothes which have no particular special requirements so I just let her do it. I take care of the dishes because for some reason she is just horrible at loading the dishwasher. I also maintain all of the appliances and fix them whenever there is a problem. It works out.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 06:40:48 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 13, 2021, 07:35:19 pmIt's not hard, it's just time-consuming.I'm not a washing machine engineer, so I can't tell you whether those old electromechanical switches were prone to failure or not. All I can tell you is that of the 3 washing machines I have personally owned, none failed on the timer-switch. One developed a fatal leak, and one burned the motor out. Both were several years old by the time I acquired them, and lasted another decade or so each.The one I have now is the only one I have bought new, and while it has the ability to link to my smartphone I have never set it up to do so. It's quite a few years old now, hopefully it'll last another decade at least.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 07:57:27 pm
content: I have an AEG washing machine, and and AEG dishwasher, both are 31 years old this year. The washing machine had its first service call ever last month. The inlet hose (between the machine and the wall) had deteriorated and started to leak a little...In fairness, they haven't seen continuous use for all 31 years, but still... I'd buy this brand again!

author: LoveLaika
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 08:12:26 pm
content: So, to quote Gilfoyle...Quote

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 08:47:18 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 14, 2021, 06:40:48 pmSo is reverse engineering the function of the firmware controlling a typical washing machine. Washing clothes is a solved problem, the control aspect is just not all that complicated, whether done by a mechanical timer or a microcontroller. It's complicated at a glance, but if you actually sit down and think about what all it does, it's just a sequence of timed events.My washing machine was broken when I got it (for free) but I resoldered the motor controller and that has worked fine for around 15 years now. About 5 years ago the seal failed and water destroyed the bearings but I was able to find a replacement kit and press in new bearings. I suspect what will eventually kill it is failure of the drum spider. That happened to my friend's washer a couple years ago during the spin failure. It reminded me a bit of a turbine engine failure, the debris was contained but it pretty much exploded when the drum broke loose at speed and started thrashing around as the remains of the spider spun around and smashed itself to pieces.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 09:20:20 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 14, 2021, 08:47:18 pmThe mechanical timer in your clothes washer is a synchronous state machine. Is it a Mealy or a Moore machine? WHO CARES.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 09:23:09 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 14, 2021, 06:40:48 pmI had a failure of the mechanical timer on a standard Sears/Kenmore clothes washer, and it was simple enough to get the part and to install it. I don't remember how old the machine was at the time of failure.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 11:00:28 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on September 14, 2021, 03:48:23 pmGood try. Our 25 years wedding aniversary is next year and our kid is finishing his Uni. We are happy owners of a washer/dryer combo which never needed a repair.

author: Andrew LB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2021, 07:33:36 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 08, 2021, 08:49:11 pmI couldn't agree more. As a 'Gen X' i'm in that age group who weren't born into the internet age but have been part of it from the very beginning and I for one cannot stand 'smart' appliances not because i'm out of touch, but because i'm at that point in my life where useless sh*t full of needless complexity and the subsequent points of failure just aren't very appealing. There isn't a thing on my refrigerator, clothes washing machine, dishwasher, or water heater that is beyond my ability to fix myself and that simplicity almost always translates into longevityA perfect example of this is a refrigerator that now resides in my garage that my grandparents bought brand new in 1932. It's an old GE Monitor Top and they used it for many years before relocating it to their garage after putting a more modern fridge in the house. After they passed, i decided to replace the wiring, and give it a new paint job and it's now purring away in my garage keeping my beer cold. It only consumes 117 watts while the compressor is running, which is a fraction of modern fridges. It's simplicity is a beautiful thing, and I doubt you can buy any appliance today that will last 91+ years.

author: Andrew LB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2021, 07:43:45 am
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on September 13, 2021, 09:28:01 pmA number of years ago i bought a Logitech Harmony remote, threw the pile of other remotes into a drawer, and never looked back. The best part is it doesn't require every component being online or have any smart features.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2021, 11:15:22 am
content: Quote from: Andrew LB on September 24, 2021, 07:33:36 am193291 years of serviceThat's pretty impressive!A technician was here a couple of years ago to help get our modern fridge up and running again, told me that getting 5 years out of a modern appliance is something we should be grateful for, LOL...

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2021, 12:55:21 pm
content: Can anyone tell me why, oh why, does an airconditioner have to present as an alternate WI-FI link to that provided by my router, & if there is any reason, why is the dumb thing "open", so you don't need a password to connect to it?My iPad has an annoying habit of losing the connection to the Wi-Fi from the router.This was aggravating enough, but the iPad sometimes connects to one of two neighbour's airconds.The problem is that I can't connect to the Internet via them, or even use them to mess with someone's airconditioner!I recently received a W10 laptop as a gift, & I will give microsoft this-----it doesn't auto connect to the friendly neighbourhood airconds!They do appear alternate Wi-Fi links, though!

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2021, 04:44:52 pm
content: Can't you tell it to ignore those connections?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2021, 08:43:16 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 24, 2021, 04:44:52 pmIt doesn't seem to want to let you do that, but all is not lost------if you deliberately select the unwanted connection, then deselect it, the iPad gives you the option for it to "forget" that connection.W10 seems to ignore them by default.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2021, 12:59:10 am
content: I could swear I've gotten my iphone to forget a wifi network it had joined in the past but I couldn't remember how so I looked it up. Try this and see if it will do what you want.https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208941

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2021, 08:10:54 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 28, 2021, 12:59:10 amThat's the method I used to forget them.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2021, 04:06:57 am
content: My new fridge has french doors. If you close one just right, the other one pops open and stays open. Seems pretty dumb but it is atleast smart enough to beep to tell me the door is open.Both my new fridges were designed such that if it is installed beside a wall, you cant pull some drawers all the way out. Because the door needs to open more than 90° to give room for the drawers. Not sure if I should blame the home builder or the fridge designer for that. Probably both.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2021, 12:50:10 pm
content: Quote from: Kasper on October 09, 2021, 04:06:57 amOr blame the purchasing department?

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2021, 04:01:19 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on October 09, 2021, 12:50:10 pmBlame everyone! Except myselfI could have not bought the house because it wasn't perfect but I'm yet to see a perfect house.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2021, 07:03:01 pm
content: Quote from: Kasper on October 09, 2021, 04:01:19 pmA real-estate friend says that if you can get over 80% of your wishes granted with a particular house, you are in good shape!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2021, 09:25:23 pm
content: House, wife, job, etc, there's always going to be some aspect you don't like, life is full of compromises. You just have to figure out what is most important to you and what compromises you can live with and choose the best you can.

author: LoveLaika
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 04:11:34 am
content: Compromise is the shared hypotenuse of the conjoined triangles of success

author: gcewing
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 11:22:32 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 24, 2021, 12:55:21 pmThe iPad obviously thinks it's an AirPort device.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2021, 07:48:14 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on September 14, 2021, 07:57:27 pmAEG?Do yourself a favor and don't.AEG is, as of today, a crappy Electrolux brand.I had a fridge that lasted two fucking years before kicking the bucket.Never again.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2021, 12:21:42 am
content: Quote from: newbrain on October 17, 2021, 07:48:14 pmYeah, the smart-ass MBAs are buying all the "known good" brands and cheapening them, so brands really have little or no meaning any longer...

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2021, 09:52:30 pm
content: This bloke is either sold on them, or is raking in enough ££ to pretend he is (he's a little irritating )

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2021, 09:54:17 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on September 08, 2021, 08:28:13 pmIngenious mechanisms which leverage the laws of physics in a simple, repeatable and reliable are ALWAYS welcome (bimetallic strips spring to mind as an example of this)

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2021, 09:56:45 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 08, 2021, 08:49:11 pmI concur, and I think"Oh wow, another meme sheep that is too lazy to think up something which is of actual wit"- the plague of this is YouTube.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2021, 10:01:11 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 08, 2021, 08:55:42 pmI once watched a TV show about Cuba. A lovely old woman had owned this fridge since 1942, and it was still working fine

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2021, 10:11:30 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on September 09, 2021, 05:18:07 pmI don't know, nor care what a "boomer" is, since I do not categorise people or their abilities by their DOB. I am 46, I grew up with computers - NOT ONLY that, but I grew up knowing that to do something (BBC Micro), one HAD to type commands into what is now seen as a "scary" terminal - there was no slick UI to prevent you doing "dangerous" () things - <------ and I am gonna cringe now at this IDIOTIC phrase computer nerds use ... "dangerous". If these hipsters were handed a computer PSU and a screwdriver, and told to replace the leaky caps, they'd spend a week on it, and then crow about it with hundreds of photos, via Twitter (and secretly shit themselves, but not admit it, when they accidentally touched the mains input terminals - how's THAT for "DANGEROUS!" ?)So looking back, I had the experience of 80s & 90s era computing **AND** the latest junk (which I know INSIDE OUT - computing is little more than muscle memory, knowing what to type and click, where to do so and when) which the new kids think they themselves conceived the very notion of.I find the elegance of dealing with things controlled by physics - the laws of nature - INFINITELY more satisfying than the "laws" of some 18 year old Californian "coder", who changes the rules every six months "just because".

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2021, 10:52:18 pm
content: There is a term of art called "appropriate technology". It is usually used by humanitarian engineers developing a useful gadget for use by poor people in developing countries, appropriate to their resources and needs.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriate_technologyI believe that the term has wider application than that laudable goal.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2021, 11:01:26 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 09, 2021, 05:31:49 pmYou need a trophy for this post. I totally concur, dear Watson.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2021, 11:08:05 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on September 10, 2021, 03:52:44 pmThey didn't invent jack diddly.Motorway analogy, forgive me, pedants, if my road laying knowledge isn't up to speed:They *found* a new type of roadsurfacewhich makes travelling down it, easier and smoother. The hard work (the tarmac, the hardcore, the underlying layers of compacted aggregates, the plumbing, the mains wiring, the 1800s copper telephone network, the drainage...) were all there when they decided to pop out of their Mummy's womb and say hello.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2021, 11:11:56 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on September 10, 2021, 11:14:16 pmWhen someone proudly, boastfully proclaims"I'm an expert in <blah>", I am reminded of this:"An 'ex' is a has been, and a 'spurt' is a drip under pressure"

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2021, 12:00:05 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on September 08, 2021, 07:52:55 pmI still wash dishes by hand, washing machines without silly internet connections work just as well.If the microprocessor hides away for 20 plus years in the guts, just doing the same job as a mechanical timer, there is not a problem.Clothes dryers are a ridiculous way of drying clothes in any part of the world with reasonable weather, & spend a lot of the year just sitting there---AND they worked just as well with mechanical timers!By the way, you might want to backdate your advent of microprocessors another 20 odd years----ham radios used them in the early 1980s!QuoteWhat manual?By the way, I'm a "war baby", not a Boomer------damn young whippersnappers!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2021, 04:09:33 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on October 19, 2021, 12:21:42 amThat's been going on for a long time. I remember about 20 years ago I started seeing defunct 1970s HiFi brands showing up on cheap new junk. It's a classic example of burning up long term reputation on short term gains. Marketing types obsess over brands, but they are all but irrelevant and getting more so all the time. There are not that many companies that actually make stuff like appliances anymore, it makes very little difference what brand it is. There are only a few companies that make furnaces anymore, if you look at the spec sheet where it shows you how to decode the model number the first letter usually indicates the brand. The units themselves are identical across 5 or 6 brands, they differ only in the badge and the styling of the stamped metal access panels.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2021, 12:55:11 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 25, 2021, 04:09:33 amCar makers are masters at turning a couple of basic platforms into several brands. It makes some sense, actually: it allows customers to "pay what they want" for basically the same vehicle at different price points (the fact of their "sameness" is usually only apparent to engineers). Arguably, those that overpay are subsidising the cheapest versions in the range! Maybe the same kind of thing happens in the furnace industry?Same with appliances, obviously. There are many brands, but only a few manufacturers.It takes decades to build a good reputation... and it can be ruined very quickly in the internet age!

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 05:04:02 am
content: I’ve got an idea 💡Let’s bundle Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos and Sunbaked Pecan (or whatever the Google CEO is called) into Bezos’ rocket, together with some power tools and a few hundred thousand tons of building materials, and send them to Mars, where they can make a head start on colonising it, whilst conveniently giving us all a break from their egocentric nonsense. 😁

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 12:26:53 pm
content: Quote from: eti on October 27, 2021, 05:04:02 amLOL well, life on Earth would be more boring if we didn't have our eccentrics to brighten our days!

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 07:22:12 pm
content: Just wanted manufacturers to know (if anyone from them frequents this forum)My fridge's thermostat (cool control, as they like to call it) is failing. I have been shopping for a replacement fridge, of course one that fits the space I currently have.The only one I found near-by (deliver charge is a consideration) is a Samsung with ice maker and WiFi. The ice maker I don't want. The WiFi terminated my consideration. If that fridge don't have WiFi, I might consider installing water outlet for the ice maker even while I have hardly ever needed any ice, that may increase my house's resell value.But the WiFi I really don't want - that WiFi terminated the deal - no go!I use the Samsung S9 phone, free from my carrier, for web browsing only. For phone, I am using a "5G compliant" 4G flip phone. I hate all the bloat they loaded on the S9, and things I can't delete. Last thing I want is WiFi with a Samsung fridge. Yeah, they may have a phone-app to work with it (not sure if it does or not), but I have no desire to have an app to "talk to" my fridge. In the 29 years I have used my current fridge, the only adjustment I ever used on it is the thermostat setting may be a dozen times, why would I want an app to do something that simple. Last thing I need is a WiFi which may end up being band-width I paid for being used by Samsung like Amazon's sidewalk.Besides, God knows what sensors they may have someday - Someday, when I turn on my phone, a message from the fridge:"Mr. Law, your fridge temperature is set too low. You are wasting electricity. We have set it back to normal for you... If you insist on setting it at below recommended, your refrigerator will be shut off automatically to comply with current government recommendations...""Mr. Law, I detected pizza in your fridge too often, did you know fat is bad for you? Please note, we care about the environment and your health..."So, after a couple of weeks of hunting for one with the right dimension and found non attractive, I am going to have a go at replacing the thermostat. I know that is failing, there may be other stuff in that old klicker failing too. The darn thing has been running since 1992. Barring total failure, or unless I found one with the right dimension and no WiFi (and no ice maker), I am sticking with the old one, for as long as I can.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 07:48:52 pm
content: I have absolutely no need for wifi on a fridge but do you lose anything if you simply never set it up?

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 07:55:15 pm
content: You would probably need to check the manual to find out, but I would not be suprised if some stuff is locked out if your not online... so many things are going that way.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2021, 04:23:43 am
content: Quote from: james_s on October 28, 2021, 07:48:52 pmI am less concern aboutwhat the manufacturer said it would dothan itdoing things the manufacturer didn't tell you it would do.Given power, they would use it. Look at how Amazon is provisioning it's Sidewalk. They use the customer's bandwidth, and according to a reedit post (which I cited in a reply on another thread a while back), op-out doesn't always work.Just because I don't set it up doesn't mean it wont be able to connect. I can think of many ways they can bypass that limitation and found way to connect via another device in my house, or a device within range of my house.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2021, 10:49:14 am
content: I can see a possible market for small EMP devices to take out unwanted network connections, LOL!

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2021, 04:31:39 pm
content: Just remove the aerial, or even the entire wi-fi board itself, if it's a daughter-board like many of them are.

author: LoveLaika
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2021, 05:49:37 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on October 29, 2021, 10:49:14 amLike how Bruce Wayne did in The Dark Knight Rises when he gets out of his car, to stop the paparazzi cameras? Do those even exist in real life?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2021, 08:02:41 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 29, 2021, 04:23:43 amThat's getting a little paranoid. I think it's extremely unlikely a refrigerator will somehow find a way to connect to the internet without you setting it up. I don't see there being a whole lot of useful data for it to gather either, it's not like a smart TV that exists to spy on what you watch and show you ads.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2021, 11:04:51 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 29, 2021, 08:02:41 pmMay not be now, but someday. It will start with convenience. You download the app, it will activate built-in sensors. It will let you know you are down to your last can of beer, and a one-touch reorder button right on your app... So convenient and so helpful. Ah, of course, apps will come with ads on what beer you may like, but still, it is so convenient.Then, regulations come into play. Since your health insurance is from a government run website with government subsidies (as it was in Obamacare and some States continued the healthcare mandate), government have a say on whether you have coverage at what price. It is only natural that such sensor data should be made available to designated authorities so they can help the public manage their health better.As most people would agree, government should not be in people's bedrooms. Why then would I want government (or corporations) in my kitchen?Given the ability, and WiFi is that enabler, those in power (governments or corporations) will find ways to abuse it.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2021, 04:07:17 am
content: Quote from: james_s on October 29, 2021, 08:02:41 pmSome areas will have an open WiFi hotspot available, and it would not surprise me of the manufacturer makes a deal with ISPs to access the net over their WiFi hotspots, which may be your neighbor's.

author: Daixiwen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 09:33:26 am
content: I can't wait for the day you won't be able to open your fridge because it's doing a software update....

author: LoveLaika
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 12:30:14 pm
content: Didn't Silicon Valley show that, with their Seppens Smart Fridge?

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 01:21:17 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 28, 2021, 07:22:12 pmWe bought another house a year ago and the seller left a very large Samsung 3 door refrigerator/freezer in it. The control to switch between water, cubed ice or crushed ice in the door and to control the temperatures didn't work and they said that it had been that way since they they had lived in the house (it was there when they moved in nine years previously.) I opened it up and got the part numbers for the controller boards and bought used boards from E-bay and fixed it. Altogether I have about $150 in it and it now works extremely well. A new one, if they were even available would have costs us over $4,000. The decorative plastic pieces that came with the boards that I bought were the wrong color and were crusty with age but I swapped the plastic from mine and it all looks like new. The refrigerator/freezer has all sorts of user accessible BIT and separate compressors for the freezer and refrigerator so I plan on keeping it for a very long time.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 10:48:37 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on November 01, 2021, 01:21:17 pmThe large ones are expensive, isn't it. Good that my house is an older house, the large one wont fit my space anyhow. The bad thing is, that smaller space (less depth) is why my selection is rather limited.From my perspective, dollars for those unused features isn't really the issue. Yeah, the probability of them using WiFi/Bluetooth to monitor or collect data is low at least for the immediate future. But, if I don't have WiFi/Bluetooth at all, the probability is zero. Zero is lower than low.15-20 years ago, ownership (for home appliance and personal electronics) included the right to control what I own. These days, you can't control what is on your smart phone, what is on your Windows machine... It call home when it pleases, collect and transmit data when it pleases... In short, ownership no longer include control today.Do you trust any major corporation or governments not to use your private data to their benefit? For me, I don't.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2021, 12:21:45 am
content: You will own nothing and be happy!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2021, 12:36:21 am
content: I don't trust them either, but unless you are completely off the grid they have access to that data anyway through any number of more convenient vectors. Securing my refrigerator is likely very low on the effort to benefit scale. It's bolting shut a tiny window high up on the side of the house when the front door is sitting wide open.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2021, 02:55:21 am
content: Yes, SAD isn't it: That on top of the little, simple trouble we have a world of fantastic technology, space exploration and astronomy. But some little, petty but necessary items, control has been snatched....They nickle-and-dime you to death.Humans don't suffer 'petty' very well.Hope maybe, future will bring better ways to push back.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2021, 03:42:34 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 02, 2021, 12:36:21 amI understand what you said. I am on the cautious side.I know there are lots of other holes there, and many are beyond my control. That said, there is no reason to intentionally keep that "tiny window high up on the side of the house" open either. Point is, I don't have to buy one with WiFi, so why would I want an opening, however small.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2021, 12:05:52 am
content: Well as long as you have the option to buy one without WiFi then yes, obviously that is preferable. It sounded like this was a challenge though, which I think is odd, I didn't realize so many fridges had WiFi but maybe it's getting more common.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2021, 10:53:25 am
content: The Air Conditioners which offer themselves as WIFI networks seem to not do anything----they certainly don't give you access to the Internet..My iPad is quite happy to connect to them however----W10 not so.I think you could control such Airconds, if you had the right "App" for them, but without it, they are useless, which is probably why they don't bother using a password.It seems to me, that they can't connect to the internet, except, perhaps through your device (again, if you have the "App").

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2021, 05:21:22 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 04, 2021, 12:05:52 amOr disable the WiFi by shielding, jamming, or cutting, but wasn't there a "smart" product recently which would stop working if you prevented it from accessing the internet?

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2021, 05:45:15 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on November 04, 2021, 05:21:22 pmRelated but may not not be directly to your point. (I think there might have been another thread on this topic already)Samsung remotely disabled TV setslooted during looting-riot(s) in South Africa. So, Internet connected or not, they could get in - presumably via another Samsung (or partner) devices...-OR-These devices require some form of activation.Reference:thesouthafrican.com: "Samsung disabling all looted televisions with remote blocking technology"https://www.thesouthafrican.com/technology/samsung-disabling-all-looted-televisions-with-remote-blocking-technology-20-august-2021/

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2021, 08:51:55 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on November 04, 2021, 10:53:25 amTypically they have some method of authenticating once you install the app. Other things present themselves as an access point so you can connect to them and configure them to connect to your wifi network at which point they become a client. I recently installed a furnace for my brother that has bluetooth built in, there is an app intended for technicians to use that allows you to configure various parameters, override the thermostat for testing and setup purposes, and view various statistics and error codes. I'm not sure I'm a huge fan of that setup but I have to admit it made setting things up very easy. In the case of the furnace it shows a code on a display on the control board that you have to enter to connect so you're not likely to have a neighbor mucking with your furnace.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2021, 01:20:15 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on November 04, 2021, 05:45:15 pmThis is very likely just using normal everyday connectivity over WiFi. Maybe the TV will automatically connect to an open WiFi without user interaction, but that is unlikely.I think that 99% of people who buy such a TV just connect it to their WiFi, without really thinking about any consequences that may have. I suspect that, without ever having used a Samsung TV, that on first setup the TV *highly* recommends to connect. It may even *force* the users to connect to continue the setup, like Windows 11 Home Edition does now.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2021, 05:56:42 pm
content: Just a thought about claims such as "what kind of harm a small appliance such as a fridge or TV could do anyway through an internet access": the greatest threats often come from the things we don't suspect, because precisely, we are not on guard.If anything, a connected TV could just constantly send information about when it's on, when it's off, what you're watching - which is privacy invasion, but could also be worse than this if said information gets into the wrong hands. Same for a fridge. Do you want it to send to severs when you're opening it or not, and for how long, for instance? All of this is dead easy once they have an internet connection.And, just add some microphones to them, and you could additionally have your conversations spied without you knowing.Do not for one minute think this would never happen, would not interest anyone anyway, and vendors would take all due care to make all this very safe. It's a delusion.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2021, 06:15:43 pm
content: Not to mention that they can be a bridge onto other devices on the local network. You don't need a PC to infect other kit, and imagine if your fridge encrypted your photos on that NAS and then demanded a ransom. Or took over DHCP duties so it could inject false DNS data, route all outbound traffic through itself to wiretap your net, etc.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2021, 11:02:18 pm
content: With refrigerators, I can see manufacturers can readily justify the convenience of having a camera inside looking at every shelf. They will advertise it as: "You can see you are running low on milk and beer at home while you are in your office, and purchase more on your way home" or just "click here and we will have resupply delivered to your door."With a camera, everyone who has access will know you are eating too much red-meat, drink too much beer, whatever else... In the future, what that convenience may also bring you: a warning from government healthcare agency because your eating habits negatively affects your health and you may need to pay an additional healthcare surcharge.Those "smart road signs" were installed to tell you about traffic and weather condition affecting the driving. These days, you can hardly drive by those "smart road signs" without them telling you "drive safely". Do they really think most drivers intentionally wants to be unsafe? We pay our tax dollars for the signs expecting the convenience of knowing about traffic condition. Instead, we installed a mean for government to nag you. Heck, if I just want someone to nag me, I can get my wife to do it for free.Given power, they will abuse it - manufacturers, or governments.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2021, 02:32:56 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 05, 2021, 06:15:43 pmUse a VLAN properly and every smart device will think it is the only thing on the network.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2021, 09:27:17 am
content: QuoteGlad that fixes it for you. For the other 7b people, though...

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2021, 08:43:48 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on November 06, 2021, 02:32:56 amFor simplicity in writing, say it is a Samsung WiFi enabled refrigerator (as that was what I was considering). Substitute any device manufacturer, it would be the same.If it can't get to the net, it would simply connect via other access points - your neighbor may be using a Samsung phone or TV, either of them could have been equipped to communicate with other Samsung devices.Besides other Samsung devices, most ISPs have nation-wide WiFi. Anywhere they have a commercial or residential cable modem installation, that is a spot where the ISP can install an additional (physical or logical) access point to support their nation-wide WiFi. Samsung could be a customer so access points are fairly readily available.Then of course there is the Amazon Sidewalk the likes that Google/Microsoft will like have. Just ink a deal with Microsoft/Amazon/Google and you can tag on to their nation-wide network paid for by Echo/Alexa/Google-Assist type devices owners. Anyone with an Andriod phone could become a conduit, if not now, may be later.Amazon Sidewalk (and the likes) is acase and point how given the means, they will abuse it, eventually. One can hope government would pass a law to prevent such abuse, but then governments often are the abuser as well.For now, I must take the law in my own hands - I will not give them the means. Come to think of it, I am Rick law - that is I am a Law. So this Law is fighting abuse at least for myself.Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 06, 2021, 09:27:17 amAnd, in my humble way if I am ever humble, hoping to set an example for the other 7 billion people....

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2021, 10:01:55 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on November 06, 2021, 08:43:48 pmI have to say, I fully support your sentiment. When everything is cross-wired to the Internet, you will have zero privacy... we already have zero privacy on the road or at the office, can't we at least be left alone in our homes, FFS?

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2021, 10:41:54 pm
content: Just trying to install a HP print driver for a phone in the play store. Around the top of the list searching for HP printer from HP was "HP Smart". Installed it and has all these tiles in there, advertising for ink but I couldn't find anywhere to put the IP address in as I have my printers on a different network past the firewall. I thought this is useless and uninstalled it.Looking down at the listing then I found HP enterprise and some other one both which looked like cloud printing.Then further down something I see "Hp printing service app" and on opening I was presented with this a stupid three page thing orlectureI think it was about installing and using the "SMART APP" instead. I found the option to put in the printer IP address manually but I couldn't find out why it refused print at first giving me this message that "Next time when adding printers choose WIFI direct and joined directly" Bullshit! Why would I want to do that in this setup. I'd ticked don't show again and it looped into a number of prompts to join it in WIFI direct. Obviously I selected the wrong button and I think after I pressed cancel and it started to behave and print.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 07:25:34 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on October 27, 2021, 12:26:53 pmDon't confuse the sociopaths enumerated above with standard eccentrics.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 06:13:20 am
content: Engineers, scientists and academics ONLY, should have internet access. Everyone else should have been left with pen, paper and basic GSM phones.I'm sorta joking, but the dumbing down and reduction in quality of this technology is because consumers are clueless cheapskates. If course, we can't go back now, but look how contented we all were before the corporate exploiters took over and packaged everything into consumer toys.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 06:15:48 am
content: As for "smart" anything, there's only one smart thing about this day and age, and that's completely avoiding all "smart" trash.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 10:41:33 pm
content: Quote from: eti on January 04, 2022, 06:13:20 amI guess there's still room for a "non-consumer Internet" like e.g. the Eevblog!

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2022, 08:31:36 pm
content: Alexa 🤦🤦🤦🤦 I said *THREE TIMES, SLOW AND CLEAR* "Alexa, volume 7" (I'm listening live so it's important) 3/3 times it *REFUSED* to do it before it had proudly announced "I'm 7 years old today, woohoo!" Alexa, shut up and follow my instructions, or you'll meet an untimely death with a hammer, wasting my time with this crap.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2022, 09:58:52 am
content: This thread is so interesting, how can ppl be so naive:https://twitter.com/AlinaUtrata/status/1485194962027388929?s=20

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2022, 06:34:41 am
content: Quote from: MasterTech on January 24, 2022, 09:58:52 amIt’s too easy for us to maybe forget that the “every man” doesn’t understand, or care, about the inner machinations of the “smart” toys they own and use. It’s worse that the companies exploit this naivete, and not the customers fault that they do so. Many of my friends and family look at this stuff as “woooh wooh” <wavy hands> “that’s too complicated for me”. They just follow trends.Because they have no knowledge or experience upon which to form a solid opinion, and wouldn’t know what search terms to use (without falling foul of the media nonsense, or the so-called YouTube reviewer “experts”) they’re basically lambs to the slaughter. It’s disgusting.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2022, 03:23:55 pm
content: Quote from: eti on January 26, 2022, 06:34:41 amThere used to be "Consumer Reports" type magazines and TV programmes, these have been well and truly squeezed out these days...

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2022, 06:35:46 pm
content: "Consumer Reports" magazine (US) is still in publication as a mailed paper magazine.Unfortunately, they seem to have moved their more detailed reports to their website, available to subscribers.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2022, 07:41:45 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on January 26, 2022, 06:35:46 pmI was a subscriber a few years ago, but found the content disappointing - lacking teeth!

author: neil555
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2022, 07:12:19 pm
content: More Smart TV bad newshttps://entertainment.slashdot.org/story/22/01/27/1518249/lg-announces-new-ad-targeting-features-for-tvsFor anyone wanting to avoid this crap I can heartily recommend the NEC Multisync E series displays, The 43" 4K model (E438) is around £500 and they also have 49/55 and 65 inch versions.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2022, 11:29:42 pm
content: Good read >https://uxdesign.cc/what-we-can-learn-from-alexas-mistakes-a4670a9e6c3e

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2022, 11:41:11 pm
content: Quote from: neil555 on January 27, 2022, 07:12:19 pmThanks for the tip, those are available for around 690 EUR over here, which is pretty good, with an IPS panel.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2022, 11:56:10 pm
content: Quote from: eti on January 04, 2022, 06:13:20 amAND ELECTRONICS HOBBYISTS... DON;T FORGET THOSE.that was my biggest frustration as a teenager. getting my hands on databooks. and development software ( 1980's... very slim pickings)

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 02:10:26 am
content: Quote from: eti on January 04, 2022, 06:13:20 amImagine how much better the world would be if all social media apps were Linux only. And only available in source code.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 04:59:59 am
content: Quote from: neil555 on January 27, 2022, 07:12:19 pmI like that... just buy a monitor and a setup box. More control and if the set top box or whatever starts to spam the viewers and they'd just stop using it and find something else.If enough did that then I wonder what impact that will have on their plans.For years I have been using a pc tv tuners until about 2018 and I gave up terrestrial when the 2 more channels started to stick on screen logos like with the rest of the hundreds of other channels that I pretend are not there.Now I would have gone absolutely made say I buy a television from a shop, showing no adverts on display having a look at it with the remote, then when I take it home advertising starts to appear in places distracting and interfering with what I am doing. I be thinking I didn't buy the television like this with adverts on it or to do all this other stuff, I want to go back and change it for something else or my money back.If I see it working, I am happy with it and when I pay for it and take it home I want it left alone and not interfered with remotely.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 03:23:24 pm
content: Whenever a debit is performed on a modern cell phone there is a location connected to it. A GPS location.Various processes ensure that there is a chain of locations that refreshes every few seconds.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 04:56:53 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on November 05, 2021, 01:20:15 pmSouth African, and the July riots are a very close memory, seeing as I live under 5 minutes from the one major retail centre torched and looted, and the rioting was only 300m away from me when the neighbourhood got together with arms (unlike the police, who were hiding in the police stations, waiting for the mad hatter of a police minister to wake up, decide which hat or fedora he wanted to wear, and make a decision, about 4 days later on) and the private security companies, and told the looters to foetsak. Then spent 2 weeks acting as night patrol, while still having no police do anything more than say we could not shoot the looters. SANDF came around every so often to look like they could do something, but seeing as they had no ammunition, and only the MRE's that expired in 2010, they were not exactly useful.That saying of disable the sets is not a worry for those with them, 99% of them will never actually ever be used as anything other than a dumb display, used to watch TV, or connected to one of the looted games consoles, again not going to be used online. No such thing as open WiFi here, where, due to historic monopolies, you pay per bit for data, and no home router will ever have an open wireless signal available, even the "free WiFi" in some places is supplied only after you either register on a portal, and accept the FUP agreement, or you buy data to use on them.One of the things looted was the entire police ammunition supply, 12 million rounds, perfect for all the firearms lost or sold by the members over the years, and there are no clues as to who, how, when, though they do know roughly where they were when stolen.

author: dbctronic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 07:22:19 pm
content: Yeah, the smart-ass MBAs are buying all the "known good" brands and cheapening them, so brands really have little or no meaning any longer...The whole branding industry is just garbage anymore. Buying and trashing old brands is just another rat corpse in the sewer, which is why it's so easy to get away with.Buy And Trash is just a shortcut alternative to creating crappy brands from scratch. Snapple? They buy their juice mixes from the exact same manufacturers as Walmart and other bargain brands do. Same stuff in a differently labeled bottle. No product value added, so why buy? And, back in the mid 90s, smartass MBAs at Quaker Oats bought Snapple, paying an estimated US$1 billion too much. What did they think they were buying? All they bought was a brand name, which is an unsustainable asset without following through on the product. They're still selling oatmeal today to pay that off.Some years ago, a bunch of business wizards from India bought the British Little Chef restaurant chain. Like many older companies, Little Chef's upper management got locked into the old "we're successful" mentality, figuring that "we know what we're doing because we've been around so long". That mentality gets you into trouble every time, as it did them. They were self-blinded by being sold on their own brand name, and failed to keep up with competition.The dumb clucks who bought them out were buying the brand name as if it were an asset, when in fact it wasalreadya liability (being long known by customers as Little Thief), the very thing that got the founders into trouble! It got the new owners into deep water too, as they attempted to profit on the name alone rather than fix the problems that made Little Thief such a cheap buy. D'oh!!!The lesson:Don't think in terms of searching out 'good' brand names. Every time you go to make a significant purchase, even from the same manufacturer you bought from a year ago, just treat it as unknown and do your product review homework, comparing brands. You never know where or when in their chain of corporate ownerships a decision will be made to sell off the brand to a junkmeister just because profits are off 5% this year. It took me a few shockingly bad tool purchases to learn, and believe me, it pays off. Sad that being so paranoid and cynical turns out to be the most profitable approach.

author: miegapele
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 01:04:50 pm
content: I imagine how this thread went in 1920's.QuoteI wonder maybe Dave still has forum archives from 1920's? Would be interesting to readOtherwise technology marches on, what might be seen "smart" an unnecessary now, might look completely ordinary in few decades.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 02:05:48 pm
content: I buy mid value white goods , my kitchen has entry level Siemens dishwater Bosch two door fridge , Electrolux microwave and oven , Beko washing machineI find modern white goods largely excellent. I get 5 years plus from washing machines and given it’s used every day of the year that’s not bad.The older stuff was junk too, my parents had a dishwater in the 1974 that was pure rubbish and never worked right.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 02:56:22 pm
content: QuoteMy parents had one the same,it was more interested in going out and having fun with his friends rather than doing the washing up,47 years on and its still not that keen on doing it.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 03:11:10 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on March 22, 2022, 04:56:53 pmQuite a story....Thanks for sharing.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 09:43:38 pm
content: Quote from: miegapele on March 27, 2022, 01:04:50 pmI hereby coin the term “dependency creep”.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 05:52:46 pm
content: And so, if we don't like all our home appliances being connected to the Internet for no good reason, wait until you hear about the "Internet of Bodies".You thought the trend was just for inanimate objects?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 08:47:59 pm
content: I thought this was funny!

author: dbctronic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 05:25:40 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 29, 2022, 05:52:46 pmThat will happen in places like Russia first, where public opinion doesn't so much matter. Putin can't wait. Those implants will do more than just help you with your daily life, too, you can bet. Track you, punish you...In more free countries, we'll just need to wear tin foil helmets whenever we drive under high tension electrical lines or past radio station towers. Or cell phone towers, or stand in front of microwave ovens...

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 07:22:00 pm
content: Quote from: dbctronic on March 30, 2022, 05:25:40 pmRFID has been in medical prosthetic for almost 10 years now, may be even longer. If you have anything artificial in you, you are a walking radio transmitter already. That said, people willing submit to stuff like a smart watches and even smart sneakers (athletic shoes).Given what have been said about recent college graduations even on this forum, it appears the smarter the devices the dumber the users. As smart users decrease (by smart, I mean intelligent+use rather than just intelligent), we may reach a threshold where we wont be able to maintain a high tech society. Imagine a whole society who can only communicate in sentence fragments, reading and comprehending a 2 page document would be quite a challenge. Abstract thinking require smartness so ability to abstract is correspondingly on the decline.Making a CPU for example, it requires more than a fab. It requires a lot of supporting technologies - from stuff like high speed computers, high resolution microscopes, etc., etc., to low tech stuff like a screw driver or a hammer. All these must come from an industrial society capable of producing all the exciting as well as boring stuff. To staff those factories, we need reasonably smart people. Should we reach that point where we don't have enough smart people, we may well become a society that declined back to earlier phases of our industrial age.I am not feeling good about the future of homo sapiens.

author: LoveLaika
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 09:27:42 pm
content: Are we doomed to follow the teachings of Walden?

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 07:07:14 pm
content: Quote from: LoveLaika on March 30, 2022, 09:27:42 pmWho is this Walden fellow... I had to look up what this fellow's teaching is:"In Walden, Thoreau explores the life in solitude. He was interested in a sustainable and minimalistic way of living, and he wanted to live close to nature, to take all of the inspiration for writing it could give him. So he built his own little cabin near the Walden Pond, and summarized all expenses in his book."I was speculating about the "failed world"if we drop below the knowledge mass thresholdneeded to maintain our current high tech society. Thus, I would choose the wordsubsistenceover the wordminimalist. Minimalist has a suggestion of doing so by choice where as subsistence doesn't have that suggestion of choice. When surviving in subsistence, the only "sustainability" one would likely worry about is one's own "sustainability".If such failure do occur, humans will have to re-learn how to do some of the lower tech stuff and re-grow the supporting chain necessary for the high tech stuff we take for granted today. Great as our manufacturing is now, you can't make a smart phone without the dumb glue factory working. We need a good mass of adequately smart people to make it work, and I am not encouraged by the grit nor the wittiness of recent college grads. I do hope I am wrong, but it appears to me that the supply of smart arse grads far out numbers the supply of smart brain grads.

author: Scherms
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 07:44:07 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on March 29, 2022, 08:47:59 pmAs an industrial engineer this 'cool' stuff only occurs in our bad dreams...

author: dbctronic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 08:34:38 pm
content: I've recently cruised a few math forums, looking to discuss some ideas, and was quite disappointed to find that they are nearly all just homework help oriented. Little curiosity or originality, just "I have to do this by Friday...", "Can't I just...", "Do I need to learn real analysis?". On the Maths Forum, one joker has taken over withdozensof questions all currently in play.It's not entirely their fault. Higher education has, for decades now, increasingly focused on grade point average, not real learning. Only the well heeled can attend institutions that turn out real grads. The rest are becoming blab schools.If that's their approach to math, or engineering, orwhateverthey're doing, may the gods of invention save us all.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2022, 08:11:51 pm
content: Quote from: dbctronic on March 30, 2022, 05:25:40 pmSure.https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33584018/

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2022, 11:26:50 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on March 31, 2022, 07:07:14 pmA college degree is the new high school diploma.... with a huge lifetime debt attached to it!More families should do critical thinking about whether each particular child is suited to higher education, but that wouldn't be "fair" so we are where we are...

author: mapleLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2022, 11:46:56 am
content: Smart everything is just an acceleration, or perhaps better said, institutionalization, of planned obsolescence.End of life was just a software term that started to get used a lot in the 00s... now its everything. Companies are basically going to make you a product that will live a certain amount of time and that's it. Goodbye choice when they ALL do it. And they WILL all do it.You think this started with printers? Oh no. Look at the conspiracy with lightbulbs over 100 years ago.These companies viewed you as a consumer in the past. Now, they view you as a source of steady stream income. Everything is being "serviced" to the point where all your money disappears into monthly fees.By design.Data is the new currency for both government and the corporate world. They are as addicted to it in the way a pair of drug addicts accelerates the demise much faster than a single addict can. We agreed to a world where our personal data is not ours... this was a big, big mistake. You are now surveilled constantly, even by that "smart" fridge you love logging into to see a picture of food on shelves. It was all so worth it.

author: mapleLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2022, 11:54:59 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on March 27, 2022, 09:43:38 pmBetter labeled as co-dependency creep, to then become subjugation. Well said, otherwise.What they want from you is dependency creep, what is happening is co-dependent because of the data mining pathology of corpo and gov entities.It's troubling how many are agreeing to this foolishness, a population literally asking for dependence, then they become more abusive, and the only logical end state is subjugation, which may already be true for all I know.

author: mapleLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2022, 12:01:13 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 02, 2022, 11:26:50 amThink of it as a largely unorganized group of entities out there with institutional control over their populations.Humans have not learned to manage entropy.Its a simple lesson of physics we can't seem to adopt as truthful in our real world:We allow systems to consume us. Entropy happens. They become corrupt.Here is the divide:We do nothing.orWe understood entropy and either put forward the resources needed to manage it, or shrink it until the entropy fades.Edit: perhaps it wasnt obvious, but its very hard to put forward resources into a corrupt system to fix it because the corrupt system will consume those resources into defending its corruption. Shrinking works. The next time you see someone throwing money at a problem, remember entropy.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2022, 12:02:56 pm
content: Quote from: mapleLC on April 02, 2022, 11:54:59 amThe majority of people simply don't (yet) see what is happening... but they will, when their household budgets hit a "subscription brick wall" and they have to start making choices: do I eat, or subscribe?

author: mapleLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2022, 12:07:45 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 02, 2022, 12:02:56 pmExpand that thinking, its more subtextualized. The best prison is the one you walk into willingly.It will only be subscription. Humans are adaptable. A subscription to eat will not seem alien. You just need to 5 monkey the population.When they are all walking in and just a few of us are left yelling nooooo.... who wins?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2022, 01:00:42 pm
content: Quote from: mapleLC on April 02, 2022, 12:07:45 pmWe'll all end up going with the flow, to a greater or lesser extent, when it suits us....

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 06:00:23 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 02, 2022, 11:26:50 amMy half brother used to say to me with a sneer "Life isnt fair" while he silently ripped me off. And he was right. It isnt fair. Lots of poor parents' children die because they couldn't afford a drug that costs $5. Its deemed poverty's fault. The death is just natural. Its what happens when you are poor. Nobody suggested to poor people that life was fair then or now. Fairness is for rich people. If you are asking that question, chances are you are rich. You are probably one of the 1% to even know that there are human rights somewhere.Education is wasted on a lot of people who dont even understand what it is they are studying. My parents were both artists and one was also an inventor. What my mother was trying to point out is that art is an affliction that effects people later in life. And you have little choice in the matter. Whether to produce or consume.They are both akin to a happy disease that people dont enter (and shouldn't enter) unlless their bodies give them no other choice, they really shouldn't enter these arts.. If their only choice is to submit to it, then, they end up afflicted, and they usually do quite well at it. But they spend all their time at it. Its a disease, as she said. often its not until later in life that this happens. Its the push to start making "progress" earlier and earlier in life thats causing a lot of problems, parents are increasingly obsessed by getting their very young children into the right pre-school, etc. Extending the competitive aspect of schooling earlier and earlier in life. Give the kids a break! They have to have a childhood.When I was a child, I got to be a child. At that time, everything wasn't under the control of "THEY" (whomever "they" are. I did lots of stuff on my own. And most kids did.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 06:11:51 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 02, 2022, 12:02:56 pmYou certainly dont get anything for free anymore.Here in the US your rights are determined by where you live, by state. As the medical standard of care is determined by norms. Some states the norms are fairly high, others its worse than sub saharan Africa for the poor. Not even air, as its already being sold in a few countries..is free now, everywhere. People in the most polluted countries are already paying people in less polluted countries for their air. Air and water are now commodities that are mined, like oil.They want people to be buried by debts. They dont hit a brick wall, they just charge you anoverdraft feeand whenever you get money in your account again, lots of it is eaten up by these innumerable overdraft fees, all taken out first before you have any money. You agreed to this, remember, when you signed the EULA. So you wont even be able to cross the street (since its now private property, not public) without adding lots of money to unlock the digital gates. . The commons has been taken. And sold off. They now own the rights to sell it to you. Its the concession they saved the governments from. Eliminating their moral hazard to be responsible. Because after all if a government is responsible theyhave to do at least their own definition of an adequate job. Thats what they mean about moral hazard.This was the intent of these various cartels to do. If you don't play the game as they want you to, they don't want your business, they keep telling us in various ways. They certainly dont want the poor in the smart cities. Before you enter the glittrering mile they will check your bank account, to make sure you're not wasting their time.. Isnt it like this inVisapuram already?All of these various "smart" appliances are tied to innumerable add-on and upsells. Those are where the profits are, we're told again and again. There was no profit in making selling commodity products like computers, or smartphones, whose prices are cut to the bone in order to hook people on that brand.Then all the information thats discovered from the GPS-containing thing is sold.. They have rigged the system so its all deemed to be their property. You, your very existence becomes their property, their inalienable right is to own you. And all your thoughts, your contacts, and save it in perpetuity and sell it to others. Its in these "residuals" that the real profits lie.. They keep the low rollers out."A smart city aims to become a citizen-centered city where citizens actively engage in urban operation and share urban data within a high-tech ICT infrastructure. It premises ‘smart citizens’ who can understand and utilize digital technology to adapt well to the various infrastructure of smart cities. In reality, however, not only tech-savvy citizens but those who are not likely to coexist in a smart city. Disadvantaged groups with relatively insufficient awareness and the necessity of technologies might be excluded from smart cities’ various benefits. The smart city innovations need to encompass diverse social groups’ engagements to claim their legitimacy and sustainability from a long-term perspective. In this light, this study examines the potential digital divide in the advanced technologies used in the emerging 5G smart city era. Using survey data, we investigate if the smart citizens’ social and technical readiness in terms of the use experience and necessity of new technologies can predict the adoption and use of the emerging 5G smart city innovations. The empirical results from this study can inform the digital divide between the general public and technology-disadvantaged groups. The findings can also guide policymakers in prioritizing technologies that are accessible and beneficial to all potential residents of smart cities in the future. Finally, the results yield specific policy implications for practitioners who design more inclusive and sustainable smart cities in the 5G era. View Full-TextKeywords: sustainable smart city; digital divide; 5G technologies"

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 06:16:29 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on April 03, 2022, 06:11:51 pmTHankfully most people’s life are interminably boring and not worth much comment

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 06:19:45 pm
content: Thats why they have to scare everybody, make their lives more terrifying so worthy of charging money to surveil. They have to justify all this after all.What is it Jon Shepard and Stephen Colbert were celebrating"Keep Fear Alive"Very perceptive slogan, indeed.. as thats what its become all about. Every person has become a potential dissident, a terrorist. If they can turn them into a cash cow, somehow. Before they were just a poor schmuck from the ghetto whose life was worth nothing to anybody.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 06:55:11 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 02, 2022, 11:26:50 amThe higher the average education level of a given population - as measured by degrees - and the lower its absolute value, since a large part of the reason why people get educated is economic. It thus mainly serves as a selection tool in an economic system. It's akin to an inflation problem.Quote from: SilverSolder on April 02, 2022, 11:26:50 amThe problem with this assertion is that I'm not sure what it's supposed to mean.How are parents supposed to decide, with which criterions? Then how can they live with the "what if" guilt? And, I've actually known a few people that were only mediocre high-school students, that became interested and pretty good at uni. I have a couple friends who frankly I even doubted they'd manage to graduate from high school, and ended up with a PhD. Conversely, a probably larger fraction of good students in high school become uni dropouts.Finally, what would be the purpose of that? Lowering the number of students, so that the average value of degrees would raise instead of drop? I don't think it's the right way of seeing it, as the underlying issue, as I pointed out above, is an economic one.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 06:59:51 pm
content: A lot of schools basically support themselves on the fees they charge international students in particular.Imagine the huge cost of being a parent today, all these costly screens which must be bought. Here in the US many people are deciding not to have children. Birth rates are falling. Of course the usual suspects are piping up, they are afraid that wages might rise. To them this is a disaster, it seems.The solution, of course, import the children instead. So in 1986 they started a huge global deal to do exactly that. Which they finished in 1994. It created the World Trade Organization. And put "services" on the poker table as tradable services. We are told this is the future of all work.The parents knew that this changed everything for them. The pool of potential competition became a lot larger for Americans, its also true. l argue in 1995, it became 7 billion. But it left the wealthy everywhere far ahead of the pack if they could afford all that was asked of them even with all the changes. .Add it to the long list of everything else, costly screens, that they all must pay for.This lets a vast part of the world cut public funding for education. And everything else.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 07:20:29 pm
content: Americans often mistakenly think that a four year degree is all thats required tio get a job in a field that afford them job stability. However this has not been true in a long time, often they need an eight year degree for that (in most fields) which we often don't have the money for. We are getting pushed out by the high cost of education. Which is the desired effect because they say we want/expect too much. We and our "unrealistic expectations"...

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 09:31:40 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 03, 2022, 06:55:11 pmThis is one problem from many. I see that at least on the Software Development front, employers are relying more on internships to discern the capability of the applicants. I also see a "shot gun approach" (fire a pile of pellets vs a single bullet). They cast a wide net, gamble the internship salary, and cherry-pick a very limited few to turn into employees.Quote from: cdev on April 03, 2022, 06:59:51 pmThis causes a few problems. (1) The usual with Ponzi Scam, the pool needs to be ever increasing for the new to pay for those taking benefits. (2) The new arrivals may not be adequately trained and culturally attuned in their new environment and operational norms thus causing production issues. (3) The new who is still too new yet to gain permanent status doesn't cost as much to employ because their visas tied them to an employer and they also cost less as certain costly rules applies only to those with permanent status.At least in the Software Development front, the competition is not a "fair" competition. I am seeing a two tier wage system already - companies with many on visas and those without.To break in, graduates (or not) needs to be top quality to convert from intern to employees. They also need to produce measurably more need to produce more than the new arrivals captive by the employer (the one who did the paper work) and at lower cost (not permanent, some costly rules doesn't apply).The world is a rough world for the newly graduated even if they are merely well qualified, let alone marginally qualified. Statistics dictates that 1/2 will be below median, but to gain and keep employment, one better be top quartile at least. The second quartile has hope, while not impossible but is unlikely to win. The bottom half likely will end up working at a coffee shop or eatery.This is what leads me to think that the number of smart people needed to sustain a high tech economy may not be adequate. Too many are hired based only on cost. Low cost candidates may be good ones too, but less likely they have the same commitment to success of the company if they are not a long term employee of that company. They also make the long term employees less committed to the company as the "lifers" (hoping to stay in the job for life) sees they are only as long term as cost permits. So for those want-to-be lifers, they may feel why waste time understanding the overall architecture and the other systems when tomorrow I may be shown the door. The short term cost savings to the employer may end up posting a very negative impact to the employer long term.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 09:53:10 pm
content: They should look closely at their existing employees rather than laying them off. Otfn one of those existing employees was doing more than their fair share of work and by laying them off a larger loss is incurred than one might think from what the contracting company admits to. The contracting companies are often getting bribes to place some of their overseas staff here permanently, and that creates a conflict of interest they wont admit to.India may be well and good but it also is a hotbed of visa fraud according to USCIS.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 10:42:16 pm
content: This was a trade, they get the jobs, we get the money from all the IP laws we want, we get. In exchange these countries get the jobs behind the scenes of course..But the deal was broken.. By people liike the ones in this film. 30 million poor people had their lives given back to them without paying the money, that cost over $15,000 a year. Thats money that did not go to US drug companies, largely.I also recommend reading the (Free online book) Genocide By Denial by Peter Mugyenyi who figures prominently by the above film. a story that moves me to tears because I lived in a neighborhood with many Aids patients.. who I saw all around me, dying. My next door neighbor was an AIDS doctor, my roommate for many years during that time was a scientist working on AIDS drugs..This was in San Francisco. California.So we traded our jobs away for the huge profits represented by IP, Ive been told now four times, by experts on the subject..How many jobs have been traded away? It could end up being millions.. as many as they can handle (Our visa quotas are likely against WTO law and if found to be so will be struck down) to be done by companies in India to broker in exchange for the huge profits.. they take something like half of the money. This is the award winning story. Which isnt over yet. Its Biden's job, the reason why he was picked, to implement these long planned changes. It was Trumps job to make that look like our protectionist impulses were decisively, theatrically defeated. To make this look like our wishes.Quote from: Rick Law on April 03, 2022, 09:31:40 pm

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 11:01:02 pm
content: This has all been planned ever since 1996, when in Punta Del Este, Uruguay the negotiations were begun the week of September 15-20. On the 20th they issued a Declaration which was certified later in a UN Declaration. It was part of a movement to bring about a new international Economic Order, or NIEO. In part this was intended to make up for colonialism. To funnel jobs to the former colonial territories, from people who could afford it. Why do you see we are seeing all this publicity about how Americans are quitting jobs, its because this huge change has been in the planning since 1986, thats why.We signed the Marrakesh Agreement in the spring of 1994. India is the new Back Office of the World. And they are hoping to launder a lot of lies told in the past (with the US's help) but a fly appeared in the ointment of several programs and that fly had a name, Julian Assange..It was him who revealed a large trove of frank cables between various US Embassy senders..This cable was about an epidemic of visa fraud.. discovered by the US counsular office in Hyderabad in 2008. It concluded that most applications for US work visas were laden with fraud. And that there was a lot of cmplicity between "legitimate" Indian entities that shoud have known better and that it was a big problem. They acted very professionally when this was uncovered.. Even The Hindu.. which is one of the good guys here.Like China is the Factory of the world. Doing work that many US companies wanted to offload from US workers, for less. US companies didnt want the business when they became commodities. Not enough profit. Its been like that with drugs, too.Americans are very skilled at making You Tube videos.. and so on. For which we get paid a lot. Americans dont like jobs that involve high risk of life threatening illnesses. But they do like mortgages and working. Which presents problems. The average hospitalization for Covid costs a patient around $40,000 in the US now. The government is no longer going to pay the bills. We (meaning our government) are against public healthcare on principle, and have been for a long time. What principle you ask? The golden rule, those with the gold, rule. Thats what GATS was for, after all.We lost the manufacturing jobs first because wages here were ten times higher.The US rejected protectionism, wasn't that clear enough from the last year? The January 6 frakas?We are the experts at manufacturingconsent, after all. Only six huge companies control the countries media, practically all of it. They invented the concept of IP, big companies like Pfizer did. Then we sold lifesaving drugs all throughout the world, AIDS drugs for example, if one could pay for them, they saved your life.Children were dying like flies, though in Africa. (<<Free book link, read it! Its a first person account from a doctor who really made a difference in what was and remains one of the world's most senseless and horrible tragedies in our lifetimes..Its as real as it gets. )Due to a disease that nobody should have still been dying from, due to a cure having been discovered ten years previously. A cure to a horrible disease that literally a drug that only cost pennies to make would cure.. reviving people from Deaths door, (as shown in the film) literally, quite like Lazarus. (They wanted around $15,000 a year for it, when the drugs only cost pennies to make as illustrated by Yusef Hamied of CIPLA, the Indian pharma manufacturer who single handedly saved 30 miillion lives.. )Now the same thing is happening to peoples jobs.. for life, which will ruin a lot of them. And its based on frauds.. in large numbers..My theory is thatstuff like this being leakedis the real reason they went after Julian Assange.. He exposed the big scam that is GATS and TISA, and the house of cards+ half baked bad economics theories it all is based on.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 05:17:04 pm
content: https://www.googlenestcommunity.com/t5/Speakers-and-Displays/Can-we-use-mini-nest-without-wifi-I-don-t-have-wifi-connection/td-p/115556QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteUnbelievable.*Artificially restricting it/ denying memythe rights to use it.So it's there but it is SET to refuse to work without a connection to google repeadly and "desperately" going to the WIFI scan section like that is MORE IMPORTANT than it working as advertised out of the box.That to me sounds like BULLYING.Absolutely disgusting behaviour.I paid for it, my device in my possession... wait a minute it I paid for it and it still don't belong to me so I'd return it.It reminds me a little bit like this when you are not in control of your own equipment:In 2006 or so I had a few laptops given to me. They had built in dialup modems. On one of them had this hidden rootkit I found and removed later that would prevent internet/lan connectivity through the ethernet port on the PCMCIA card nic I installed and would interfere with the network components and present the dialup prompt repeatedly to some premium rate number. Obviously the previous owner used it for dialup . Remove it and it would return.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 06:31:15 pm
content: You always need to read the EULA these days... because in effect, you rarely "own" products you buy anymore, at least not in the usual sense of ownership.What you own is a right to use them according to the EULA. Which is very different.Interestingly, this is *software* that allowed companies to pull this off. You can't do this with products that do not contain any software. At least that I can think of.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 06:36:51 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 04, 2022, 06:31:15 pmIt seems to me like, arightto use them in acertainway that they set in which case for something like that I'll be executing my rights as a buyer (whatever's left of it) to return it wherever it came from for a full refund.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 06:45:00 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 04, 2022, 06:31:15 pmWhile that sounds like good advice, in practice virtually nobody actually reads the EULA, ever. I certainly don't, they're pages and pages of legal speak gobbledegook.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 06:47:35 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 04, 2022, 06:45:00 pmYes, and that's part of why they can pull this off. =)You don't know any of it until you can't use your product anymore for some reason, and then you bitch and buy another.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 07:03:33 pm
content: Like the folks in their Trustpilot review:https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/google-nest-miniNestEarliest review 2 start Aug 18, 2015Reviews 816 • BadClaimed profileReplied to 30% of negative reviewsReplies to negative reviews in > 1 monthExcellent 4%Great 1%Average 1%Poor 6%Bad 88%QuoteSo hebuysthe equipment and PAYS to see it.Joke: I have a rule I like stick to... if it is not in-house, cabled up, tested, guaranteed to work, independent of what goes on out there and left alone after the install until I decide what I want to do with it in the future then it's no good to me it's a pile of p*ss. If they love their product so much they might as well keep it and not sell it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 07:10:53 pm
content: Oh and, buying anything Google is like letting the wolf enter the barn. You're much better off if it doesn't work anyway.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 07:51:28 pm
content: QuoteI think that's fair enough where you have a choice - it's an ongoing cost to the provider to supply the cloud service (just like your broadband is an ongoing cost to your ISP). You can't expect a vendor to sell a service for a cheap one-off price and then be around years later to fix your broken kit (or sell you more of the same).However, it's not really on if you elect not to use the vendors service and supply your own (direct connect over the LAN, for instance) but aren't allowed to for non-technical reasons.It would be kind of OK if you knew upfront what you're buying into and then elect not to buy into it. But some of these vendors have a basic free service which magically gets more and more limited over time until you have to pay to get some functionality back. That's bait a switch, albeit in a long game.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 09:11:42 pm
content: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/new-google-nest-cams-can-record-video-without-a-monthly-subscription/QuoteStill I would like the option to send the video onto my own cctv recorder.https://smarthomestarter.com/can-you-record-nest-cam-locally/QuoteNo ethernet cable option? What a joke!So a burgler could come along, see nobody's home, interrupt the signal and just walk in whilst these things are recording and the owner may get an alert that the cameras have dropped off but not a clue of what is acxtually going on.https://old.reddit.com/r/Nest/comments/8hpi7v/connecting_a_nest_cam_to_ethernet/QuoteSo it has ethernet connectivity but again artificially? restricted it.I don't know what they are playing at here.https://store.google.com/gb/magazine/compare_camerasQuoteQuote*I could do that anyway with my old cheapo noname and some other 1080p cameras I have come across.That's a lot of money for locked down a pile of p*ss.Sounds to me more like scamming customers out of their money with what they can and can't do with their stuff that they "buy" but don't actually own.I have a friend who buys Hickvision camera's cheaper than that with what I believed has more resolution for banks and businesses and of course joins onto a cctv recorder with alarm inputs/outputs.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 09:35:09 pm
content: Google is a lot more interested in the data they can collect from those items, than any direct money they get from them.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 10:08:38 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 04, 2022, 06:31:15 pmThis is software AND the internet that enabled companies to abuse customer and made a purchase not a purchase.Personally, I am still sore at Adobe. Long ago, I purchased Adobe Premier (professional) v1.5 for personal use - at over $1000 usd then if I recalled correctly. I have my kid's baby videos, trip videos, so on, all saved in their library work file formats.Lo and behold, one day a few years ago, I boot up my old machine intending to make a new mix of clips for relatives. It gave me a page saying I need to activate. It was activated before and was actively in used. I was puzzled but went ahead to re-activate. The activation server no longer exist. I called them. I was informed I must (re)activate on the net only. No other way to re-activate that product. So, I can't even start that damn program to export any of the clips!So, my entire library of old video clips are in-prison. Unfortunately, upon import and thinking I got it stored, I erased those tapes for reuse.I really dislike this "purchases" when in fact they are merely just right to use and for a limited time only.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 10:55:41 pm
content: I dont know if the option of a class action lawsuit is available to you and others in our boat, but we should investigate it. I also bought Premiere and another similar, expensive p[rogram but found that I liked another program a great deal more, which was free. So that s the one that I ended up learning. That is the problem with software.When it comes to IP we basically gave away the store by our various positions as we are doing with COVID-19 and prostate cancer/Xtandi, and so on. Our government seems fixated on making sure corporations have every right they possibly could have under the assumption that whats best for them is best for all of us. This isn't always true by any means. Often that position is paradoxically what is the worst for everyday people, not at all good for us.But this is what we get for our inattention to many issues. The entitiues who feel that they have the most to gain from lobbyists and lawyers and buying offices in Geneva, our new world capital, do.Quote from: Rick Law on April 04, 2022, 10:08:38 pm

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 11:05:20 pm
content: Some other NLEs might be able to import Premiere files? Have you looked into that?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 11:11:18 pm
content: Now people are finally getting it, whats being done.. coercively sometimes, in the online world.(I dont know their exact specialized name for it. Its not simple upselling, its more specific. It has a special name )>So he buys the equipment and PAYS to see it.>I think that's fair enough where you have a choice - it's an ongoing cost to the provider to supply the cloud service (just like your broadband is an ongoing cost to your ISP). You can't expect a vendor to sell a service for a cheap one-off price and then be around years later to fix your broken kit (or sell you more of the same).>Sure, you have a "choice",>However, it's not really one if you elect not to use the vendors service and supply your own (direct connect over the LAN, for instance) but aren't allowed to for non-technical reasons.>It would be kind of OK if you knew upfront what you're buying into and then elect not to buy into it. But some of these vendors have a basic free service which magically gets more and more limited over time until you have to pay to get some functionality back. That's bait a switch, albeit in a long game.The legal term for that is "ratchet clause" or often simply "ratchet". It applies for example, when time passes new rights vest in many areas where WTO rules apply. The ratchet locks in because its impractical to give corporations rights and then take them back, so the ratchet applies in perpetuity it seems in many areas. For example, privatization concessions often lock in and election victories cant reverse them, except at tremendous punitive costs. In the past elections would frequently result in policy changes like the winds.. Now whats called a "golden straitjacket" is said to have been put into place. (see theTrilemma of the global market economy, as described by Dani Rodrik, for example)For example, many people wonder why if in the past a government agency fixed some problem which was broken due to amarket failure.. but then later say via the WTO was required to disinvest in it, and the service became private property.. they think nothing has changed.They dont understand the meaning and reasons given for progressive liberalization, for example.Once a governmenment hasdisinvestedin something, its made so, in practical terms, it cant claw it back. This is to give international investors true certainty.Whats happening is the right to regulate has been withdrawn from the fickle voters

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 11:17:54 pm
content: Its never free. In America nothing is ever free, its intent is to entrap and expand..Envelop you and legitimize the claim to everything essential.. Gaining astronomical revenues immunity from questioning. No matter how bad things get their rights can only be increased.. Its called "progressive liberalization"Soon the entire world will be America, everywhere. So then their investment really pays back big. That is really how they see it, you are either American or soon to be one. Or be controlled by a corporation that is the American Imperium.They got in on the ground floor when we were just in North America..Anything to prevent prices, like drug and healthcare prices from collapsing..

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2022, 12:00:19 am
content: Quote from: cdev on April 04, 2022, 11:11:18 pmCan you fix that quote, please. I didn't mention the word 'democracy' or wink.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2022, 09:32:18 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on April 04, 2022, 11:05:20 pmThanks for the info. Back then, after trying to re-activate for weeks, I became too annoyed to work on it anymore as the time.I kept the files (if the HDD still works, been a few years). I should check into if I could play some more tricks and see how I could get those exported.

author: Scherms
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2022, 10:48:17 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on April 05, 2022, 09:32:18 pmJust do a search for "adobe premier activation patch"...

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 12:57:12 pm
content: Why don't you call them and ask them what you can do, IMPORTANT have your install disks and your original serial number handy, so you can show them you do actually own the software. I dont know what you can do but I do know that if you legitimately own the product, they will likely try to help you even if you dont want to buy it again, just extract your files in a format you can use elsewhere. Adobe is a big company but they are real people who also have kids and home movies, etc. Unfortunately Macromedia is no more. They were bought by Adobe who now own their various products.Many file formats are "containers" which are wrappers around the files, and the files formats are discernable if you open the original files in a (sometimes) hex editor, an editor that can decode the binary parts of text files. Years ago when I worked for a space focused contract as a web developer, it was my job to decipher and translate for web use all sorts of fiile formats. And I did it really well, a lot of it. For a high tech scientific organization that produced a lot of it. The container file may also internally be XML, with the frames as CDATA. Unix shell utilities exist that could extract each frame as a binary file and save them with sequential file names. I used to often use an editor called Oxygen to work with these huge XML files. But one could also use Unix utilities.. one didnt need to use the commercial product. Its just a PITA doing things that way, (but once you start it you will collect scripts to do this and they oftentimes will run very rapidly on a decent machine.When you save files, always double check that you can extract what you need before you finalize whatever you are doing. There used to be a number of raster image translation utilities that I made extensive use of that were good for this. One was the PBM utilities by Jef Pozanker. (for "raster" files)On Mac OSX there also used to be a useful program called de-babelizer, that was able to work with a great many saved and compressed file formats.If you can break your movies down to the original files, we're home free.Companies deliberately making their own software incompatible because of upgrades really annoyed the government at that time, so the US government demanded and got, whenever they bought proprietary software under contract, they got the source code to it on a separate gold CDROM. So, if it came down to that they could build the old software so that the original file format could be extracted. They eventually developed something called "open source" which makes users iummune from these tricks.Now the new government we have now, since the mid 1990s has been brainwashed by big corporations to reject the open source concept as a theft of their IP. Its a very contentious issue but the fact is that there is no confusion in the computing community which all understands exactly what issues are at stake. Its the would nbe owners of IP, often developed by others as a gift to the users community under conditions that it would be shared that they try to frame as crooks. But hold on a second here, they did the work. They want their work to either be free to all, or if its owned, its owned by those who wrote it, period. Where I live now, lots of people use all sorts of business software every day and they dont even know that such a thing as free software that legal, or free operating systems, they dont know that such a thing exists, or they have been brainwashed into thinking that is somehow illegal. What a shameless lie.Its only illegal if its commercial software thats stolen. Thats what the person advocating you try to utilize various cracks or illegal patches wants you to do. Don't do it. Instead, as you do still own the original program, try to use what you have got and get your home movies back.The open software advocates dont know what weapons are being arrayed against them or why. Its a battle for the future world. Will the future world be one where people can go on living withouit paying extra for every single thing that soime corporation can assert permanent rights to, even water and air, or not?Lets take water mining. The model which corporations favor is one where whatever they can take, and establish as a norm, they can resell. Even if that leaves the common people with nothing. And then having to buy it - from them.Lets face it, its a complicated thing, the writing of software. But its a group effort. Groups of people can do it, and do it well. Sometimes they want to share it, not sell it. That is not a crime. No criminality ios at workl there, at all. Its a gift to you.Its to make it possible for a larger community of users to exist. In the hope that they will contribute their effort into the shared pot and make it better..Its so those people, rich or poor can help!Free and open source software is a big thing, which many folk are trying to keep hidden, by various tricks.They want to monopolize the business of software development making it for the privileged only.The rich only, basically.keep those poor people who cant afford huge made up prices for software which is intentionally given away for free by its writers. The foreign staffing companies are a big part of this. They claim that any requirement to use open source steals their "intellectual property" even though it saves communities and users a great deal of money. (So this doesnt make any sense) They dont like that frre software exists and is often used when it does. It may be quite high quality, and the documentation and support for it is free. SOmething like a commercial RDBMS can be insanely expensive.; It is used by the foreign staffing firms not because its good or affordable, its used toi keep all but them out. because its cost is another "costly screen" they find useful - A barrier to entry that keeps competition out ofwhat they consider to be their turf.They consider the tech jobs to be their half of a deal they made with oligarchs where they get what they want, jobs to broker off, and the other oligarchs get a right to all the ip they want. Even things like off patent drugs, that are essential for public health.If they had their way there would not be any generic drugs.So, lets go back to your precious home movies of your family. If you still have the tapes, even if you think you erased over them, why dont you take a look at those tapes and see what exactly is on them today. There may be something you can use. If there are digital files, see if you can open any of them successfully. Then see if a hex editor can see them.If it could - chances are software exists that could turn compressed files back into uncompressed files. Such as folders of bitmaps.Back in the day, I got files in that format all the time.You can work with them using almost any movie program. Using the command line. Once you have a usable file, you can turn almost any movie file you made yourself of your kids or relatives back in the day, back into its underlying bitmaps, save them in a folder and if needed, re-compress them, fast and efficiently. Some of these utilities, although obscure are still around and still can be useful sometimes.If you can find the original files anywhere, chances are you can extract the underlying images and get your video back. 35 years ago the web was still in its infancy, movies online were still new and oftentimes, people started out with big folders of individual images to make any movie.No need to try to go around their DRM, if you have the files, you can likely find a way to get your original movie files as they were initially, thats what you will need. They may be in MP2 or some other compressed animation format. Since you own premeire at the level you bought it (and hopefully retain the documentaion proving same) what you need is for it to still work as you bought it.It may be tied to a specific OS level, say, Windows 98, or similar. You may need to run it on an older machine with the OS you had then. Ask them and make it clear that you are not trying to get anything new for free, just what you already paid for.Do you still have your original Premiere install disks? They were a bunch of floppies or CD/DVDs, immediately recognizable because Adope Premiere is written on each one of them.For future reference, you should know that those disks are your proof of ownership. You may also be able to buy a compatible upgrade version used, with a guarantee from the owner that it was usable now, or your money back. Look for used software for sale. Here in the US you can buy and sell your old software, license and all. The IP industry just hates that, if they had their way, you would not be able to transfer ownership or even rent movies. This was a bitter loss for them that they view as a huge injury for them.They are trying to take over the world. IMHO. Literally. In contrast, Open Source and the open way of working can and does solve a lot of problems we're facing today. One is the lack of qualified teachers. Open source, being free can be a huge help to the creative people who cant or wont spend thousands of dollars p[er application - and then additional money to take classes in school, when a free application might be as good, or sometimes even better. One good example, is the free RDBMS, PostgreSQL. (https://PostgreSQL.org)If you understand what an RDBMS is you probably also know how useful they can be.Yes, you'll be saving thousands of dollars and enabling a huge increase in your business productivity. How do you think businesses like Apple, Amazon, Googloe and Facebook get their start? All four were started because of and using FOSS. If Foss didnt exist, none of them would exist today.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 06:25:21 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on April 06, 2022, 12:57:12 pmI spend weeks and weeks trying to contact them then! Yeah, I have the original discs, and the box, and the receipt of purchase. I get bounced around and around and always ended up at only a robo-answering machine telling me I must activate on the (non-existing) server via the web.That is why I was and still am sore at them. It was personal so it was my own money and my own purchase. That was pre-retirement so I had better income then; But over $1000usd was still a good chunk of change and excessively so when added in years of inflation.Granted, they may have a EULA somewhere that states it was merely a use-license instead of ownership -- I am not a lawyer, but the way I understood the law, I bet if I had the time and money to pursuit legal action I would win. EULA is visible only post install, at which time the software is no longer in an unopened box, thus, return even if available is not always a full-refund. That makes the alteration to the "visible contract" post transaction thus the EULA should not hold. The visible contract being my sales slip of buying the box with nothing on the box saying I don't own it. If my understand is correct, then they damaged my property by rendering my property non-functional. The activation should be a perpetual one. I accept not being able to install (or move) to a different machine after a healthy length of time, but an activated one should stay activated.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 06:52:05 pm
content: QuoteThis is why they get away with it - most people don't have the money to fight, and don't have the willpower to follow all the way. If you do have money, the time and inclination, they are big enough to just wear you down until, perhaps several years later, you are skint.It would take a class action or similar to get anywhere, but for that to happen they would have to do something that pisses off a LOT of people all at the same time.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 09:53:35 pm
content: I was looking at the Google cameras again and found this interesting:https://www.google.com/shopping/product/5636875447571648535/reviewsQuoteSo they capitalize on the name, copy it, brand it and then release their own version locking more and more features down.QuoteSo Google released a program for a computer but won't work with the newer models which sounds to me a bit similar to Dymo and their print driver where it would only print from their software to printer.Now they are not happy anymore with the info they collect they have to dictate how the user uses the equipment what information the user sees and restrict the rest that they possibly collect themselves.*A SUCKER is born every minute... wait a minute, this one was turned into a sucker by Google over time.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 10:25:58 pm
content: If you talk to Google employees, you rapidly discover that many are just itching to leave. They tell stories of all sorts of corporate abuses and are fearful of one another's snitching on them. It reminds me of a totalitarian state. (I have known many who grew up in them)I avoid dealing with them as much as possible, I certainly would not depend on them in any way.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 10:32:36 pm
content: This is why the trend is to take as many cases as possible away from juries and turn them into "consent decrees" which are often bought fake and rigged to look like but not actually be "justice", In other words, corporations buy legal decisions which then serve as legal precedent locking down the future and creating new law. This is how trade deals work. They create new corporate law which is totally corporate owned. It is totally separate and apart from voters wishes and voting. Which dont matter. They wouldnt let the voters decide things so important to their profits. This is the future. Democracy-free .They dont want to risk any decisons that threaten their property right in any way. Peter Drahos calls it Information Feudalism and his book by that name is really worth reading to understand what is being done and its huge cost to all society. Its a large scale theft of the world from its people, they wouldnt risk losinbg that to voters and voting. This outcome was preordained I think since the 1990s and the loss of democracy at that time. It fell to the creation of the WTO deal. Which is supposed to remake the entire world in a corporate mold. Its like Clemenceau once said about war. "War is too serious a matter to entrust to military men. "Humanity can no longer have its interests protected as that would threaten the property of the elites or impede its free movement of capital, God forbid. All revolves around that. Its like the British set updouble governmentto allow a democracy-free rule of the colonies, one where the people couldn't be effective in any way which adversely impacted profits.Americans couldnt tolerate this so we left the UK. But they tried to stop us, now with the WTO they have brought back raw corporate rule, autoarky back again. People should recognize its imprint on healthcare soon. WTO rules forbid public services, as they have been up until now.Its a sleight of hand they think they will be able to pull off. Watch closely what happens to the pea in the old shell game.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 11:19:05 pm
content: Link!Seat Sale: License to Sit.This really exists in the Los Angeles (greyhound) Bus Terminal. Remember, nothing is free in America.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 11:41:38 pm
content: QuoteSorry, but I think not:Quote

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2022, 12:36:19 am
content: No, I meant the real version, not the art version. You have to pay to rent a chair to sit in. Otherwise you must stand.The LA Bus Terminal is a particularly disagreeable one as such terminals go. The one that used to exist in the wine country of San Francisco (Sixth Street) was almost as bad. My mother almost got arrested there during the SF riots when she tried to stop a cop from arresting an innocent man.I really miss my mother, sometimes, this outspoken truthfulness in the face of certain kinds of people is one of the things that I most admire her for.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2022, 11:01:01 am
content: Blimey!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2022, 05:01:03 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on April 07, 2022, 12:36:19 amOne should never interfere with a police officer, that is a crime in itself. It is not for your mother or the officer to determine if the man is innocent, that is the job of the courts. IMHO innocent people other than law enforcement have no business anywhere near a riot unless they were passing through when it started.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2022, 05:46:13 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 07, 2022, 05:01:03 pmQuis custodiet ipsos custodes?Your snap judgementalism is astonishing, given the almost complete lack of context available.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2022, 08:28:44 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on April 07, 2022, 05:46:13 pmInterfering with a law enforcement officer doing official duty isbreaking the lawhere in the USA. Snap judgement to not break the law (to interfere) is a good thing.Obviously not all law enforcement officers are good, but most are. Their IA (Internal Affairs) department watches over what they do, and body cam almost always provide definitive evidence when they failed. The officers risk their life to protect us, we owe them the presumption that they are doing the right thing under most situations. If and when the act appears so extraordinary to be questionable and potentially innocent folks are being harm, one should call 911 and report that thepolice on sceneis not acting lawfully and physically doing harm. Senior officer(s) and support will arrive to get the rouge-officer in control.The alternative is anarchy. Anarchy is defined as living in condition without legal authority. That alternative is not a nice environment to be in.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2022, 09:41:30 pm
content: As she described this to me He was doing nothing wrong. My mother was an intensely honest, religious person.My mother held to her opinion and she was threatened. But I'm sure she was right. This terminal was a block from Market Street and people were jumpy that night. But this particular person was not involved in it. He was just traveling. Like many other people.(My mother was a smart cookie.This isn't related but - trivia- she literally used to work for somebody who had been nominated for sainthood)I live in the US where the situation with police can be complicated (as with politicians) and varies a lot from one place to another and one person to another.I was in a situation like that once where I got fired from a job for refusing to falsely incriminate a shopper who my bosses son was trying to get arrested when in fact he had done nothing wrong. It went to a panel because I applied for unemployment after I lost my job. But I won.There are certain people who are used to lying a lot and often getting their way but this is wrong.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2022, 05:47:30 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on April 07, 2022, 08:28:44 pmLet us hope that your veil of naivete is not lifted by being the subject of unlawful action by police. History is littered with such examples, all over the world.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2022, 05:54:19 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on April 07, 2022, 08:28:44 pmI don't know the US laws very well, but as a democracy, I'm guessing this is similar to many other democracies, so: yes, it is breaking the law, unless you as a citizen are witnessing an officer doing an unlawful exercise of their 'duty'.For instance, if you're witnessing a cop beating up an old lady crying for help, I think you'd be entitled to interfer. That is an extreme example, but you get the idea. Of course by interfering, especially if you have no context, you know you are exposing yourself to potential trouble. And, if your reasons are well-founded, you better have other witnesses to back up your claim, and other evidence such as surveillance cameras and such...

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2022, 06:28:16 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 07, 2022, 05:01:03 pmVerbally objecting when she witnessed an injustice of some kind is not interference, so much as doing ones civic duty. You might be saving somebody's life in some situations.I wasn't there but I have to say, she was likely to have been in the right, knowing her. Also the US was quite different then than now, for one thing the civil unrest at that time was a particularly touchy event as it involved the verdict in the Rodney King case. When my mother decided to visiit me in San Francisco. Unfortunately, SF was also far from peaceful on that day/night.It was before the militarization of the police. There might have been CCTV cameras in that bus station but the cameras were not everywhere as they are now. So I dont know what happened. My mom who at that point was in her late 70s so she was an old lady, used to stand up for the underdog, as I remember. She also was aware that sometimes, realistically, black Americans are victims of what I suspect is often overzealous policing. Even when the police are themselves black. Facial recognition software has also often been found to have problems, which are not yielding as we would wish to better programming. The ACM has written about this extensively in their Proceedings. The fact is, no little computer embeds anything even remotely resembling actual intelligence in themselves. Additionally, the huge financial incentive society is counting on the profits from by eliminating expensive human workers, makes a groupthink situation that virtually guarantees a plethora of very bad decisions will be made. Even if the technology we draw upon to "justify" those bad decisions is lacking. Look at the situation where despite the objections of the inventors of Bluetooth, after totalitarian China asserted that they had "developed a system" which used Bluetooth Low Energy to track and identify people who might have been in proximity with one another, countries that should have known better misrepresejnted the ability of software they had written in a few weeks to be used in fake "contact tracking" software..Its the same with the surveillance technology of other kinds, iits capabilities are often vastly overstated and when put to the test, found to be lacking. But they wont give it up that easily. Even when its deeply wrong. And shown to be bringing with it a host of problems.Another similar mistake was the so calledGatwick Drone incidentin the UK, which turned out to have been a (very costly) mistake.Groupthink is an unfortunate consequence of so called "echo chambers" that impact public opnion to see crime (or terrorism) sometimes when in fact no crime actually exists. It may be wishful thinking of some kind, like the wishful thinking after the fall of the former Soviet Union for enemies to "justify" egregious levels of military spending and high profit military manufacturing. For example, questions persisted about the terror incident of 2001, revolving around videos showing the collapse of the two towers, both due to having ben hit by large jetliners carrying large amounts of highly flammable fuel and the arguably inexplicable, subsequent collapse of an additional building, part of the same complex, in what appeared to be a well controlled explosion, which had not in fact been hit by any airplane.As those profits are already being banked on, and the intertia generated because of greed cant be stopped. Also the security establishment lined up demanding that news about the WTO whose name sounds similar to WTC be suppressed. What is Groupthink? Its a phenomena inherent to some kinds of social behavior that was originally explained by Irving Janis. And expanded on by physicist Richard Feynmann in his famous investigation of the Challenger disaster and the train of pressures and faulty decisions that led to the failure of the Challenger Space Shuttle propulsion systemdue to abnormal coldcausing brittle rubber and failure of O-rings leading to an explosion. .

author: dbctronic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 11:53:42 pm
content: I nearly collapsed into a pile of my own dookey when I found out that those Challenger booster O rings were made ofneoprene!! The cheapest plastic ever made! Yes, itdoesget stiff at 40F! Yes, it'snotterribly heat resistant, in fact about the least heat resistant plastic!!! Not that this matters when it's got good old putty separating it from burning solid rocket fuel, of course...How much did they save by using neoprene and putty instead of silicone? Only groupthink could lead to this kind of unbelievable decision making. Save a few grand, lose a shuttle and crew.Groupthink: Inertia matters more than progress!!

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 04:19:36 am
content: The Challenger o-rings were silicone, not neoprene.Neoprene itself is not really a cheap artificial rubber: as an o-ring, it is rated from -30oto +212oF.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 04:10:35 pm
content: When I read the original publication of this article in Aerospace and Defense Science, it convinced me that the SRB o-rings were not the cause of the Challenger disaster:https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/382045main_19%20-%2020090730.11.STS%20Problem%202003.pdf

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 05:05:46 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on April 12, 2022, 04:10:35 pmI'll admit to not reading the whole thing, but in my opinion he greatly undermines his own argument by demonstrating that he does not understand how a bathroom scale works and why the reading overshoots (here's a clue; it doesn't on a modern electronic one that uses solid state sensors instead of springs, gears, and flywheels).I feel that if the dynamic overshoot (if it indeed exists in the shuttle engine system) was of the magnitude that he claims, probably 50% or more of all shuttle flights would have ended in catastrophic structural failure.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 06:48:44 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on April 12, 2022, 05:05:46 pmModern electronic scales overshoot also, but suppress reading it. Mechanical dampening is very difficult to add to a load cell based scale without compromising accuracy because travel distances are so short. Hard stops are used to protect the load cell from physical damage but even with that, they are very susceptible to shock.The first time I used an analog storage oscilloscope was to measure load cell overshoot as part of a weigh scale with the idea to dampen it electronically so that the final weight could be returned more quickly.QuoteThe article mentions stuff, including a NASA slide, being broken or damaged mysteriously, including the launch tower, which was a motivation to stop releasing early when the strain was lower as originally intended. This bending moment issue starts on page 33. Like Darwin answering his critics, I think later revisions of this paper are less focused but they are what is easily available.Feynman's report included SRB sections being severely bent out of shape but did not make any connection to a cause; he was more interested in how they were repairing and reusing sections that had yielded outside of the design specifications. Having read both reports in detail, I got the feeling that data was withheld from him to lead him away from the bending moment issue.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2022, 04:55:22 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on April 12, 2022, 06:48:44 pmWell, while it's true that everything is springs, the reason you get large oscillations and overshoot on a bathroom scale (old type) is because when you add the load as he describes, it moves due to gravity until it reaches the point where the spring force equals the load, but then continues past due to momentum in all parts of the system. The starting position is not the same as the finishing position, by several millimetres at least, possibly as much as a centimetre. This makes the resonant frequency quite low and difficult to damp, and as you say, damping in a system designed to measure weight is problematic at best.I'm surprised there is a noticeable overshoot in a solid state (piezo-electric crystal?) load sensor, as the movement due to spring compression in such must be absolutely tiny, in the micron range at a guess, so the resonant frequency will be much higher and self-damped much more. My electronic bathroom scale settles immediately, no overshoot, I think it gives about 1 reading per second or so. Certainly an old spring scale would take several seconds to settle.As for the deformation of the SRB bodies, I doubt it would be easy to prove it wasn't from impacting the sea when they are dropped when empty.Moving to stop from releasing early at launch makes me think more that the dynamic overshoot was actuallylessthan anticipated...

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 06:11:57 am
content: I wouldn't be concerned about artificial "intelligence" being all that "intelligent" - it's a daydream thrust down our throats by futurists, and the professionally delusional.Amazon Alexa struggles to answer BASIC questions, such as "How long is the movie 'Forbidden Planet'?" telling me "Sorry, I don't have an answer for that" - DUH. Amazon use "According to an 'Alexa Answers' user" or "According to Wikipedia..." (so it MUST be true, then... LOL) as sources for "facts"... so not a lot of "intelligence" going on at a HUMAN level, and it's the HUMANS that design and maintain this mediocre digital amusement park.Don't fret, AI is NOTHING, and it's not gonna "take over the world". It's about as likely to be sentient, or even APPROACH the ability to act like it, as a digestive biscuit is likely to tap dance.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 09:01:46 am
content: QuoteThe problem is that this broken AIistaking over the world. If it were decent AI there would be less of a problem. Already it is being used to (a simple thing everyone understands) triage frontline support - think Amazon, all those web pages with WeChat, etc. Behind the scenes if you need benefits the chances are some AI is going to do the "Computer says 'NO'" thing, not an actual person. At least, not one that cares.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 10:48:14 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 21, 2022, 09:01:46 amIndeed, it's the software equivalent of the "jobsworth", an administrator with no real vested interest in the end result, just in following the process.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 01:40:18 pm
content: Quote from: eti on April 21, 2022, 06:11:57 amYes I read in Britain they were thinking about it for motorists leaving it at the mercy of the insurance companies instead of the driver for accidents.I wonder, is the word "CLOUD" being used as a smokescreen to disguise the understanding and real namas of things, like clustering - a group of machines set to work together to either backup or share the workload and mass shared storage.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 03:46:44 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on April 21, 2022, 01:40:18 pmI understand "CLOUD" to mean "Someone else's computer" and that seems to work, but they sure do not advertise it that way.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 04:12:22 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on April 21, 2022, 01:40:18 pmI help my older neighbor with their computer problems. They recently got a new laptop and wanted to know how to get their gmail emails over to it. I told them they didn't have to be "moved" to another computer they were on the cloud. They didn't know what that meant.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 04:29:36 pm
content: Thats exactly the kind of "customer" they want, the dumb kind.Its like an old GF used to say.. A Dumb fuck, is the best fuck..Today the NYT is talking about using smart technologies to make nursing homes profitable again. (Wages too high are killing them, or so they say)..https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/21/realestate/nursing-home-robots.html

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 05:24:50 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on April 21, 2022, 04:29:36 pmHopefully you didn't take it personally!

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 06:11:26 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on April 21, 2022, 04:12:22 pmI wouldn't that understand too if I didn't know what was behind it.I would understand myself: "They're stored remotely by your email provider that (receives and sends out the email messages) but can be downloaded on your computer too as a backup if you wanted. ""You could also set depending on provider to download the email messages to your computer without them being remotely stored forever, once you receive them and they get removed depending on the amount of days set to keep emails that have been marked as read." There is a risk of them being lost so you better have a backup drive to copy them.An installer a month ago told me, it's all "apps" and "cloud", you join it to your "wifi"(one out the two inverters), create an account, sign in, download an app, sign into that... forremote firmware updates/datalogging/diagnostics of the solar panel inverter before I told him NO!... I don''t want that, I want it standalone, I don't want no wifi signal coming from it, no internet connectivity. I want it left alone If it is not in house then I don't want it. It has to function regardless of what goes on out there.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 06:26:02 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on April 21, 2022, 06:11:26 pmDid he tell you it works kinda like Insteon?Run away ...

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 06:40:12 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on April 21, 2022, 04:29:36 pmYes. Dumb or very obedient. Often both are tightly coupled though.Quote from: cdev on April 21, 2022, 04:29:36 pmQuote from: cdev on April 21, 2022, 04:29:36 pmOf course. And hugging robots.Of course there's always gonna be a "good" reason. "Good" thing here they admit this is for profitability. The usual sneaky talk is to claim huge benefits for the end user.Mooooooo. =)

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 07:02:03 pm
content: Of helping the Third World's rich kids with jobs.. to broker skimming off huge profits..

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 07:15:19 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on April 21, 2022, 07:02:03 pmJoke: Could it be that Rob Lilliness was unwilling to release the means of control of the Insteon devices to the customers because either him or some broker wanted to preserve their rights to it and maybe waiting to sue some other company or big maker attempting to provide support for it?

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 10:39:16 pm
content: A couple of weeks ago I was after a pressure washer.While looking, I found that Karcher actually do a smart pressure washerI can understand a few people liking a smart fridge (although not for me), but a smart pressure washer?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 10:43:16 pm
content: Ahah, and do they tell you about their app collecting data about what you do with your washer?But that is to better serve you, right? (Which means: to better serve them, in Doublespeak.)

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 10:52:42 pm
content: QuoteA puzzle, isn't it? If you're actually holding the thing and the control are actually in your hand, why would you want to put that all down in order to dick around with your phone? The only scenario I can envision is some kind of practical joke, and you surely wouldn't want to do that with a high pressure stream.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2022, 07:53:25 am
content: The last thing i would have in my hand (or even just my pockets) while pressure washing is my smartphone.Pressure washing is messy, the phone is bound to get wet.My bet would be: The next iteration of that "smart" washer will only have barebones controls, if even any beyond on/off, on the washer itself. Buttons are expensive, and if you can slurp the users data, even better.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2022, 10:34:03 am
content: Yes, I was thinking... surely someone will realise the problem and figure the solution is to remove the local controls.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2022, 11:57:52 am
content: Quote from: HobGoblyn on April 24, 2022, 10:39:16 pmLOL the sad part is that anyone would buy these.And no sign of any shortages for products like this... sadly!

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2022, 04:01:05 pm
content: I predict my next shopping trip for household appliances will be looking for devices that'd don't emit a wifi/bluetooth signal and whether they can be switched off.I can imagine being told: "well the manufacturers didn't go to all that effort into putting all this stuff in there for you not to use it.""Supply and demand" never made sense to me in the order the words are put in but with the arrangement above now it does.They supply it and they demand that you eat it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2022, 06:27:05 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 25, 2022, 11:57:52 amIndeed. But how come?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2022, 06:52:50 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 25, 2022, 06:27:05 pmThe middle of the bell curve for demand wants them. People like MrNobodies above are down on the plains and lost in the noise.The riff-raff probably didn't know they wanted it until they saw it, but shiny-shiny, blue LEDs, and there's your demand popped into existence.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2022, 06:56:08 pm
content: need a IMSI-catcher or PC that can mimic phone and or cell towersjust to reverse engineer a whole generation of household appliances to keep for posterity in Museums

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2022, 08:44:35 pm
content: VPN on the phone should do it - it's the data you need to capture rather than GSM stuff, and a VPN should intercept that on the way out.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2022, 07:03:39 am
content: Someone mentioned somewhere early this year but I can't find it about "self test" stopping appliances from working.Credit where credit is due... I'll see if I can find the the post later.I heard in the UK a proposing of reducing MOT testing on cars:https://news.sky.com/story/annual-mot-could-be-scrapped-amid-cost-of-living-crisis-12599848QuoteI imagine "self testing" being used to gradually reduce or even replace MOT checks somewhere down the line with these new battery cars using sensors and wear leveling say on things like the brakes.I wouldn't know how that will turn out in terms of safetyDo you think that is likely to happen?

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2022, 07:40:43 am
content: It's been mooted about in some form or another for quite a few years now, as a means of saving some money in terms of the MOT administration, the database etc.The fact is it's already quite easy to duck a "real" MOT by going to a garage that will pass your vehicle regardless, and then there are the existing historic exemptions (for vehicles more than 40 years old, which this year means anything built as late as 1982 just to make you feel really old) where there's a reliance on these vehicles being "cherished" and therefore well maintained...Ultimately it'll come down to personal responsibility, somethings the tories love to push, whereby if you get pulled by a VOSA roadside check (very unlikely) or if you have an accident serious enough for the police to get involved, and your vehicle is found to be in an unroadworthy condition, you're in the shit.This is already the case even if you have a valid MOT certificate, which probably fuels their argument. Nevertheless I'd expect to see a huge increase in poorly maintained vehicles if this happens, and probably an increase in RTIs due to mechanical failure.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2022, 08:10:38 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on April 30, 2022, 07:03:39 amWe've never had MOT testing here at all, in most states there is absolutely no inspection process and never has been except for emissions testing in many areas which was scrapped here a few years ago due to so few cars failing. The owner is entirely responsible for making sure their vehicle is in good working order and in practice that doesn't seem to cause many problems. You don't hear about wheels falling off or accidents happening due to mechanical failure.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2022, 10:16:49 pm
content: Without the MOT test, the testing shop wouldn't be able to notice faults that need costly fixing and would have to rely on the yearly servicing turning up extra work just afterwards.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 09:46:23 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 30, 2022, 10:16:49 pmOne of my best friends is a retired mechanic, said MOTs were a waste of time because they have nothing to do with the overall safety of the car.Note, what was checked 15 years ago may well be different to what’s checked now.He refused to do them after too many scenarios like,He mots a car, it passes the mot check but he sees that while it passed, there’s no brake pads left, it’s metal grinding against metal so he failed the mot.Customer complained as it had passed all the mot checks, mot authorities agree with customer, friend tells mot inspector that if that’s the case, mots have nothing to do with safety and is nothing more than a money making exercise.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 10:17:09 am
content: Quote from: HobGoblyn on May 01, 2022, 09:46:23 amThis scenario is incorrect, the rules for this are quite clear, it's a dangerous fault and therefore a fail:https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/1-brakes#section-1-1-131.1.13. Brake linings and padsSome brake pads have metal wear indicators so that when the pads become excessively worn the metal indicator touches the disc making a squealing sound. Other pads may have a cut, which if worn away indicates that the pad must be replaced.An illuminated brake wear indicator is not a reason for failure.Defect Category(a) Brake lining or pad:(i) worn down to wear indicator Major(ii) worn below 1.5mm Dangerous(b) Brake lining or pad contaminated with oil, grease etc. Major(c) Brake lining or pad missing or incorrectly mounted Dangeroushttps://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/introduction7. The MOT inspection manualAlthough this manual is publicly available, it’s specifically written for MOT testers. It specifies the applications, procedures and standards to be used for MOT testing. You must read it with any current special notices relevant to the class or type of vehicle under test.You should familiarise yourself with the contents of the manual and any amendments to it, including special notices which affect test procedures or standards.Defects found during the MOT test will be categorised in one of the following groups:minor - defects that have no significant effect on the safety of the vehicle or impact on the environment and other minor non-compliancesmajor - defects that may prejudice the safety of the vehicle, have an impact on the environment, put other road users at risk or other more significant non-compliancesdangerous - defects that are a direct and immediate risk to road safety or having an impact on the environmentIf a vehicle has only minor defects, it will pass its MOT inspection and a test certificate will be issued.If a vehicle has any major or dangerous defects, it must be failed and a refusal notice issued.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 01:15:41 pm
content: But was it incorrect 15+ years ago (I estimated the 15 years), it may well have been, I don’t know.I’m only saying what he told me.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 03:00:59 pm
content: iuQuote from: james_s on April 30, 2022, 08:10:38 pmDespite MOT's and the strictness? in the UK over the years I remember this article:https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/driver-runaway-truck-killed-four-9382806Quotehttps://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/hauliers-jailed-over-faulty-lorry-20936091QuoteIt looks like no amount of MOT testing will stop people like this or accidents (well if can even call the one above that) from happening and according to the judge it's the greedfactor.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 05:18:51 pm
content: So the "app" automatically reports them to the police?I guess ...

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 06:20:01 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on April 30, 2022, 07:03:39 amSure, when I was a kid they wanted people to buy new cars every two or three years.. To help the economy.. The illusion of democracy is exactly that.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 07:30:20 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on May 01, 2022, 05:18:51 pmI am not sure, whether it is noting it down to company he was working seeing how the boss refused.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 07:33:50 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on May 01, 2022, 07:30:20 pmIt sounds like the man made a personal choice" to resist the demands from the corporation that they service the car to prevent the deaths...Dis you see the article about the so called "right to repair" demanded by Russian Terrorists in Ukraine after stealing John Deere farm vehicles? What a coincidence, eh? We all know where we stand on that one..

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 07:37:35 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on May 01, 2022, 07:30:20 pmHe was shown the box.. Click here to...what?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 09:26:18 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on May 01, 2022, 07:33:50 pmIt wasn't a car, it was a lorry, ie semi truck. I believe those have inspections over here too although I don't know how strict they are. Certainly heavy trucks are different circumstances than private cars.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2022, 12:02:50 am
content: Just like its easy to forget that for many decades many people were forced to work without pay, without any pay at all. Now Russians are stealing the farmers grain.. all of it.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2022, 12:27:50 am
content: QuoteBut board n lodgings was free,so it worked out cheaper to let the slaves free , pay them a wage , charge rent on there hovel and buy out the local cash n carry so those wages ended up back in the employers pocket.But hey were free,well at least between sundown till sun up

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2022, 12:45:19 am
content: It looks better too, I think they started realizing in the 19th century, as well as being more profitable. Wages don't have to be enough to "live" on, just to exist. Its not like they give people another choice, besides leaving.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2022, 12:04:06 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on May 02, 2022, 12:45:19 amWell, there's always competition between different "owners", the ones that offer the best conditions attract the best ones etc.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2022, 02:05:22 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on April 30, 2022, 07:03:39 amThis book is a very good critique of what Shosanna Zuboff a professor at Harvard Business school and critic of the new digital state.. calls a "coup from above"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Surveillance_Capitalism

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2022, 01:01:54 pm
content: Some US states have Emissions Tests, which basically consists of making sure the Check Engine light is off....

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2022, 11:11:49 pm
content: Read the report on LCDs at CIEL dot org, it explains whats happening better than I ever could..Additioasl regulation is largely prohibited in many areas. Because they ar businesses and contractual..THis was the point of the TTIP, harmonization. They want to protect huge corporations from liability do to all sorts of what they see as time bomnbs.. due to various environmental crimes.. thats part of it.Autos I am pretty sure are one of the must be deregulated only sectors.. Energy too likely, allowing them to substityute various kinds of energy for any otherr.. for example, substituite nuclear for gas.. or coal for LNG. Overrule voters.. They know whats best for evrybodys bottom line.. However deregulation is always allowed. Anything that makes them more money is what they want. Lower safety and emissions standards are likely. The developing world certainly wants this.Freedom to pollute. Elimination of precautionary principle..

author: mapleLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2022, 09:53:42 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on May 04, 2022, 02:05:22 pmBoth corporations and governments want to spy on everything. They have no natural enemy because their tactic is largely one of distraction.It's become rote to suggest the smart phone is a spy device, but what is not understood is the integration of data between places you would never imagine are integrated. Palantir is an outcrop of this.These companies and governments have enough phds to work out degrees of separation, data mining, communications tapping en masse, etc etc etc cc purchases, etc etc, travel, etc and have refined models to fill in the blanks, basically.Every person walking the planet that has been christened into digitization in one form or another has an identity somewhere. In "developed" countries that could care less about the pervasive spying, there are thousands of different you's all over the place. 40 years ago it was just a credit score. Palantir is designed to integrate those too.If you research it with an open mind, you will see that intelligence agencies are in essence "in business" now. What was DARPA then now we get InQTel, and many more. It's quite a rabbit hole when you see how far back some of these "facilitations" took place in history to supplant one company with another.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2022, 03:27:10 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 05, 2022, 01:01:54 pmFor more than a decade the on board diagnostic system is all that is required to check for smog requirements in many areas.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 08:08:50 pm
content: A few lessons to be learned here, “smart thermostats”Xcel confirmed to Contact Denver7 that 22,000 customers who had signed up for the Colorado AC Rewards program were locked out of their smart thermostats for hours on Tuesday."It's a voluntary program. Let's remember that this is something that customers choose to be a part of based on the incentives,"https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/contact-denver7/thousands-of-xcel-customers-locked-out-of-thermostats-during-energy-emergency

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 08:19:52 pm
content: Don't "worry", you're going to see this kind of message in various occasions now even if you don't own any smart appliance.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 11:10:18 am
content: Quote from: PartialDischarge on September 01, 2022, 08:08:50 pmI love the "Got it" acknowledgment button at the bottom of that message."You are required to eat sh!t. [Got it]"

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 12:50:47 pm
content: I remembered someone's television that I looked at in 2016. I think it was a Toshiba built in 2008. I can't remember what model it was but it had an ethernet port on the back, it bad a browser, Youtube and some other video website stuff. When I joined it up using a wireless bridhe the browser couldn't load many websites and the built in Youtube built didn't work past loading where it would just hang.The thing is that one was not called a "smart tv".It was in 2012 when I first time i heard that stupid term plastered all over the news about the wifi in some of them being vulnerable and getting "hacked".https://thehackernews.com/2013/07/network-enabled-samsung-tvs-vulnerable.htmlNow I am hearing them using that term to refer to energy meters including the remote monitors,

author: Andrew LB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2022, 04:59:42 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 01, 2022, 08:19:52 pmYeah, wait until they lock you out of your bank account because you questioned the results of an election or you used the incorrect pronouns. Social credit systems are very popular among our "betters" in government recently. They'll make it a reality as soon as they implement this cash-less society crap.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2022, 07:59:16 am
content: My brother bought about ten smart wifi connected mains power measuring and on/off switching wall socket adapters in 2016 and two months ago they just stopped working all ten off them.The company stopped support and without a phone home and reply from the company they switch off and just abort functioning.I know this could happen with the cloud software license model but hardware ?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2022, 03:59:14 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 18, 2022, 07:59:16 amThat's why I only get the ones that support Tasmota or are at least well documented for hacking.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2022, 07:32:18 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 18, 2022, 03:59:14 pmI had mentioned to the manufacturer of an inverter supplied to me about this happening to their"cloud" onlywebsite hosting monitor/datalogger via their (wifi stick thing) and no response to that other than them saying that the built in ethernet port is "reserved" and non functioning as opposed to what the manual says. I discovered that it uses modbus and now I have a working in house solution with a platform called HomeAssist with a ready made addition for it that seems to work really well. I am going to stick it on a minipc that I just ordered.I'll be watching to see what happens whether they will shutdown their hosting or start charging subscription fees first.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2022, 07:43:14 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 18, 2022, 07:59:16 amHe had 6 years of the system functioning. That's a lot more than most people get.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2022, 02:59:52 am
content: My fridge has a WIFI, which was never turned on. Yeah things can go wrong:QuoteBTW, try to ask a teenager now what this is:.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2022, 06:36:30 am
content: I always thought, why does this trend exist in calling things "smart" and why are they referred as smart.I wonder because as they are called "smart" does that mean the manufacturers or developer think that you are stupid and are effectively calling you stupid.That I would need to have my solar panel inverter report to a website half way around the world that requires me to have broadband, mobile phone, "stupid app" and an account where I have to sign in just in order to see the data and logs and this inverter is only 5 to 10m away and has a small lcd screen that don't show very much.The inverter isn't called smart and the manual seems reasonable but very vague on the ethernet and usb port and I haven't seen that word in the inverter document called "smart but let's see:Google search"foxess smart"So there is something they call "Smart" and it is that stupid WIFI stick thing the installer and manufacturer wanted to sell me where they claimed that it was only with that WIFI stick connected to the broadband and to their website as the only means of monitoring and datalogging that requires me to, you guessed it, "create an account (with the installer), sign in, download the app, register this and that. sign into that... blah blah blah nonsense" and needs broadband on just view data next to me like above. I refused it and I am pleased I did. My installer seems to be letting me manage it myself where I have access to the installer menus.QuoteQuoteJoke: *Device is a mystery... none of business what it is and how it works. Because it is "smart" and "intelligent" that means it allows you idiot customers/end users to do all these wonderful amazing things that could you never do before without the need of website, an account and a phone and "app" to upload data just to download it again."Real time and monitor system alerts"... well that is no good if you happen to have no broadband and need to view it at the time.Very stupid. No inverter should need a website to view the statistics and as the only means of viewing itI find the use of the word "smart" and "intelligent" use there as an insult. What happens to that "smart intelligent" thing when the manufacturer goes out of business.Well I could do all that before with my previous solar panel system over 10 years where I was given and appliance and it wasn't called smart and it was not dependent on a website to function. It came with the software and a bit setup password change and that was it and worked straight away out of the box.I find I could still do that now with this inverter in question with Homeassist appliance with a bit of work (after they lied to me that the ethernet port don't function) as it supports modbus and I found it isn't anything new and this Homeassist thing does not need broadband, a website to run or account in order to function.I think that is my justification that when I see things that are labelled "smart" that is likely they full of sh*t..The inverter itself mentions everything and functions as detailed in the manual. The only thing nonsense that I find on this occasions seems to what they call "smart" that is linked to the cloud website nonsense.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2022, 09:25:24 am
content: Quote from: coppice on September 19, 2022, 07:43:14 pmComing from a fellow EE , I now worry about the life expectancy of future electronic devicesI hear these low lte figures from more persons, lower BOM so cheaper electrolytics etc.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2022, 12:32:22 pm
content: QuoteIt's relative. A watch able to tell the time in 4 places at onceandcorrectly change when Summer ends is certainly smart compared to a mechanical watch. When it can show your incoming texts, measure your heart rate, etc. as well, that's pretty smart isn't it?Same applies with a refrigerator. There are those that just keep everything at 4C, and then you have the 'added' value ones that also... er... OK, maybe a microwave then. Ours has various programs for doing different foods, but there are some that you don't have to program at all and just tell them what it is, or show them the barcode off the packaging, and they either know it or find out off the web. You might think that's pointless or an infringement of your liberty to burn food to a crisp, but it's pretty smart compared to previous models.Are they effectively calling you stupid? I think there is some element of mansplaining involved where you don't appreciate being told what you (think you) already know, and being told in really simple terms. But there is also the fact that a lot of people ARE stupid, or at least no technologists, and don't have a clue. The vendors are pandering to the bulk of the bell curve, and it's nothing personal that you happen to down on the slopes - it's just not worth their while writing vastly different blurbs for all possible egos. So they may treat you as stupid (which might be a good thing overall when you think about it) but they're not calling YOU, personally, stupid. They more likely don't have an opinion on you since you're so far down below the noise level of things that might spoil their day.Edit: To clarify, I am not suggesting you are somehow wrong to be complaining about this stuff. It's obviously pissed you off, and kudos for actually making the effort to do something about it. But it's important to recognise that they are not dissing you, Mr Nobodies.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2022, 06:20:01 pm
content: "Smart" is just a marketing term. Nothing particularly smart about those appliances. One common fact though is that the "smarter" those are, and the least in control you are as a customer. Generally speaking.In that regard, "smart" here doesn't imply that you are stupid. This just implies that you aren't fully in control.Companies designing those don't care to think you are stupid. They just want more control over their products because that's what makes them the most cash.Now if people accept that loss of control and paying more than what should be reasonable for a given object, maybe they are a bit stupid. Or maybe being considered "intelligent" in our current society is to accept to conform to this new model, and this just looks stupid to those of us who don't want to conform. Yeah.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2022, 09:35:48 pm
content: QuoteYes, that explains the cloudy stuff. But that isn't the definition of 'smart' appliances. I have stuff that does the same clever bits but without external data hoovering or cloud. A simple example is an RGB LED strip which you can control from a phone app. I think it's clever - one of the things you can do is point your camera at something to make the LEDs show exactly that colour - so I think it would qualify as 'smart'. Maybe even IoT since it's networked, but it there isn't a cloud in sight.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2022, 10:21:42 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 20, 2022, 06:20:01 pmProduct brought for a purpose ->Manufacturer -> absolute control over product and needs the existence of that manufacturer to exist in order to function.No!Remote access alone from the manufacturer (without permission or setting) to do what they feel like is a big nono from me.I will not tolerate that behaviour.So the implementation of the word "smart" is not for my benefit or customization, to suit my needs and my preference. It is the company deciding what they think I would want or based on what they want or feel like. So they may may think they know me better than myself or portray an image, stereotype or habits, to get their way if it is about making money or charging for features that were brought with the purchase. Sounds to me more like dictatorship.To lure me by giving it fancy names I would find as an insult in itself.Manufacturer managed inverter service agreement - owned by the customer but managed and maintained by the manufacturer and contractor under a fixed duration. Only website viewing as managed by the manufacturer.Not pretty, would never buy at least that tells me what it is without using fancy names and I would feel insulted when I get to the bottom of it to after find out about itI go into a shop, see a product I like, take it out, see if it would do what I want, if yes I pay for it and leave with those features intact. When manufacturers come along and start changing things (if given access unintentionally behind my back on the back door speaking of trust) that affect my usage then that is out of order and they can have it back.I am quite sensitive to fancy words used in this way when I find it is used against me. I had this done to me many times when people you fancy terms to mean something they want it to mean but it is just empty. I found by letting them have their way nothing materializes. I find I have to ask and clarify for everything in detail.Talking about conformity. It is not that I don't want to conform, I just don't want whatever I buy to stop working when there is nothing wrong with it or loose features or cease to function for a purpose that I brought it for because the manufacturer have decided remotely.Is it possible say they don't intend to treat me like I am stupid but in effect they are doing it without actually realizing subconsciously?Quote from: dunkemhigh on September 20, 2022, 09:35:48 pmIf it works for you in a way that is customizable and does what you want then fine,I find that worthy of such a name but when it doesn't do what I want it to do anymore and the people behind it start dictating, remotely restricting it that it needs internet and their website in existence for it operate it when that wasn't the case before. That is what I am against.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 12:14:59 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on September 20, 2022, 12:32:22 pmNew word to me "mansplaining"QuoteQuoteI am sorry if I am like that. I was treated like that right up in my 20's due to my condition. Unfortunately I have a language processing disorder that makes everything difficult for me to understand at first. I was fobbed off, refused help, given fancy sounding names for things that didn't mean anything as opposed to the real help that had to be fought for me and had to fight for everything.Now you can see why I am sensitive to hearing certain words or combinations of words where it is unclear or open interpretation to mean other things and I am bound to get as you say "p*ssed off" when I am lied in a way when it is blatantly obvious.If I ask a question and realize that someone doesn't know much about something I wouldn't take offense unless they claim to.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 12:37:39 am
content: QuoteAh, I think you have it arse about face. I meant that it isthemmansplaining to their customers (of whom you are one) that might get up your nose. Although I can see how it could be interpreted to mean you mansplain, that wasn't actually what I meant.Sorry for not being clear enough.Edit: In your example, the way they gloss over how you connect to their cloud to do everything, and make out the Ethernet port is too complicated to explain to you, is what I was driving at.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 12:37:56 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on September 21, 2022, 12:14:59 amIt occurred to me the other day that if someone ever accuses you of mansplaining then it follows that they know what a man is. Point this out to them and ask them to define what a man is. Seeing many people are unable to do that nowadays it should shut them up.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 01:05:02 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on September 21, 2022, 12:37:56 am

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 01:12:00 am
content: Sorry I didn't understand that but I see now that that is possibly a joke judging from SiliconWizard reply and the smiley emoji thing.Can someone please explain that means?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 01:27:43 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on September 21, 2022, 01:12:00 amCirclotron pointed out how silly the term "mansplaining" is, that's all.The same people who love to use the term "mansplaining", also get flustered and refuse to answer when asked to define "woman" or "man".SiliconWizard's reaction was laughter, because the use of the term by these people is acatch-22: either they have to define "man" (which they will not or cannot), or they are using the term "mansplaining" fully knowing that they cannot define the term, like children who use "big words" to impress others without knowing what they mean.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 01:47:39 am
content: I see, so you can't accuse a women of mansplaining.If a woman done it it would be "womansplaining" and I see on search the term also exists for them:https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=WomansplainingI see the joke now.So he'd only be right if it was directed at a man and not just anybody.Thanks for sharing. So nice to explain to me and I appreciate that otherwise I'd feel left out.Just thought of something:What about transvestites, you know like Fran Blanche?I don't think it would apply to her anyway as I never found Fran Blanche condescending.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 01:57:03 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on September 20, 2022, 10:21:42 pmIts a symptom of modern "complicated" technology being sold and exposed to the unwashed masses. Once upon a time all that data/customisation would have been only available to "higher level" operators/installers/businesses, but nowsomeof it is exposed to customers in some over simplified way.You are part of the 0.0 something percent of the customers who could actually make use of anything beyond the cloud solution, but the cost to document and support that at a consumer level is too high for the product manufacturer. The higher level installer/OEM documentation is probably insufficient for your wishes too! lots of these industrial solutions only document a few bits and leave the rest for guessing/reverse engineering (or buying some consulting/support from the manufacturer). Even when its "cloud" you often see silly things like only supporting XXX OS version YYY or newer, purely for them to save money, you can replace working hardware because they dont see the cost of that, only the cost to test and support wider software platforms.Its the same with phone/internet providers, the first level "support" staff read off their pre-prepared script which is often fundamentally incorrect or misleading if you know the underlying technology. As an example: unplug your modem, wait 30 seconds, then plug it in again, solves/answers multiple hardware issues in "one" "simple" instruction. Or that classic, reset everything (settings/config/cookies) to default/clean/shipping state regardless of if that would make a difference or what the costs to the consumer of those steps are. You "buy" something but they will expose as much of the actual operating/ongoing costs to you as they possibly can.The only solution is to buy things which do what you want on installation, with a contract that specifies what you actually care about. Don't pay until it is working. They are happy to make empty promises and push you through the zero/low cost sales pipeline, because that is no effort for them. Turn it around and make them work to get your business.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 03:04:05 am
content: Quote from: Someone on September 21, 2022, 01:57:03 amOh dear.QuoteThat would be the Sunspec Alliance that they are part of that charges a yearly fee to use their development software. Thanks to the opensource community for detailing the registers and building a readymade package otherwise I would have had any monitoring on principle. Something for me to the be grateful about.QuoteJoke: Pissing and farting about and the total mystery that remains a mystery.I don't have that problem anymore and this why I go for business broadband where they'd be quick to answer the phones and chase up Openreach. I have a couple of HG635's in bridge mode to use with this tool I found. Some old pictures from month ago:It supports syslog too:Now that is what I call smart.Tells me what I want to know and quite simple too.I suppose lot of people wouldn't have a leg to stand on when living with intermittent faults and ma not have the means to prove it. I had Openreach turn up some years ago and they way behaved was like they didn't believe me at all saying they were wasting their time until one line dropped out as I showing them the graphs and it started to change. Also it just stopped raining so that was a hint. So they got the ground team out and turns out the new box in the manhole cover they installed outside wasn't properly sealed.QuoteWe had many contractors give use a quote. I spoke to manufacturers of these onverters to only find they all did this cloud only nonsense thing. Solaredge did one that had a built in ethernet port and webserver which I was happy with but when I read up about this model this contractor was going to use, the reviews were not good with it failing about two years and something about interference coming from it.The contractors we chose were quite good and honest about it and in that they noted down what I want and explain what they couldn't provide like that with a onsite monitoring solution. They noted down, no remote cloud affiliation, no wifi stick, any wifi stuff to be switched off after they finish and didn't set any installer password stuff. They said in the contract "customer manages the equipment." They even run me some armored cat6 cables. Also the young gentleman agreed about this the clause in the contract excluding damages to first and third party from viruses/malware/pc code/ hacking as for this "cloud" stuff and that wifi stick thing.There was a company called Engensa who installed the previous solar panels. In 2012 I specifically asked for mono crystalline panels. Even their website advocated for it. I asked for a Sunnywebbox to go along with the 4kw Sunnyboy inverter but they were saying it is something they don't normally provide and had something better.It was their own datalogger appliance. I asked, does it have a built in webserver so I can view the info about the strings and voltages, no, it just measures the difference between two meters using a clamp to upload the readings to their website. I said that is useless I don't want it, I want the Sunnywebbox that would tell me all the details.hey came back and said yes, but it will cost £50 more. Fine. Then they gave us the wrong contract to sign and put up poly crystalline panels when they gave us the paperwork at the end and a box with their datalogger in it. I discovered this after they left. After 2 weeks of arguing with them showing them, pointing out their own pages how they don't recommend poly crystalline they decided to swap the panels around and give me the Sunnywebbox as agreed. Unfortunately as someone said that the contract was signed and some praised the workmanship they charged us a little for the labor of the swap. I didn't sign the contract myself.Another disappointment was that I was told they could only get hold of the SunnyWebbox with the bluetooth module not the serial one I asked for and the plugin for the inverter. They said they didn't know when it would be available and something I'd have to order myself. I though they were lying so I did look and phone up places selling it but they didn't have stock either at the time and I never got round to ordering it. I was worried that the bluetooth might be vulnerable. Also the power supply they gave me wern't good which I discovered years later after many swaps when it turned to be that. I smashed one apart (they replaced the unit not the power supply so that didn't work) and discovered it worked fine when I plugged it a different 12v one upstairs. Smashed theirs to bits to discover very simple inside with 3 bulging caps.

author: helio0centra@gmail.com
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 03:08:35 am
content: I have a smart phone and a real computer. That's the only smart devices I need.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 03:10:59 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on September 21, 2022, 01:47:39 amAnd you shouldn't accuse men of that either, when you refuse to define "man" or "woman". The silliness happens, when you use the term, but refuse to define "man", because you're using a term you cannot define. And that is most of the people who seriously use the term "to mansplain".To be honest, I think the 'splaining is just a derogatory way of describing how men, especially fathers,intuitivelydescribe things. The female/mother counterpart, in my opinion, would be to describe an event, by describing how humans perceiving the event felt and experienced it, with many diversions describing each persons relationship with everyone else.Quote from: MrMobodies on September 21, 2022, 01:47:39 amIt would probably short-circuit an intersectionalists mind, if you asked them whether a trans-man can be accused of mansplaining!Not all men mansplain, and I've met women (definitely female, withXYXX chromosomes – edit: was just a typo!) who tend to mansplain; one of them was an air stewardess, and mansplained to me about condensation, when I only asked her for a paper towel to dry my neck as the cold condensate happened to drip there. No, I never got a towel either; go figure.I get enough crap because I'm so verbose –– it is not by choice; I've always been this analytical/descriptive/insistent on correctly describing my point ––, and know that one can easily create a derogatory term for every possible way of human interaction. So, I don't put much weight on such terms. I consider it just another diversion: when you cannot attack the argument at hand, you attack the person presenting the argument, so you can "win". A typical social game, which I utterly detest.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 03:52:20 am
content: When looking for things like televisions or screens, I put my hand in the back to see if it gets hot and if it is well ventilated. I want things to last long. I believe, the hotter it is the shorter service life but I know that may not always be the case. I have had things over nearly 20 years that get hot when turned on.Quote from: Zucca on September 20, 2022, 02:59:52 am0:54 "My car doesn't have a computer in it and never will"I saw this advert about an electric car on television some weeks ago, I can't remember what manufacturer that had all the usual UI garbage, bloat and annoyances of a web page on the screen during the advert.I know someone who had a Jaguar 12 years ago and even a Volkswagon car after that. They had a lcd screen in the center. I found the arrangement of the UI was compact and nice not bloated, not patronising or insulting, didn't have any intrusive distracting spammy nav/toolbars taking up room following down the menu when scrolling, no dimming overlays that would cover everything else what you are trying to do, gradients over the maps or fake loading spinners. It was all there to help assist the drive and not interfere. The Jaguar had this debug menu where it should all the details in there... There was none of this "stupid app" or cloud nonsense.If it is not for, computer, cloud and app nonsense set to micromanage and control the user in every aspect that they desire I wonder what the manufacturers would do instead?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 11:20:08 am
content: QuoteLet's not get stuck on forensic dismantling of portmanteaus. Just as 'chairman' describes the position rather than the gender, 'mansplaining' nowadays describes the interaction rather than the sex, the way it's done rather than the physical makeup of the transgressor.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 04:09:14 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on September 21, 2022, 03:10:59 amOooopsy... XY is male, XX is female...

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 05:51:24 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 21, 2022, 04:09:14 pmThat's right, but some of those "awaken" people will tell you that this is quite oppressive.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 06:14:26 pm
content: The Active Self Protection Youtube channel has shown at least two examples where people tried to escape deadly situations in their "smart" vehicle and could not because the vehicle disabled itself. In the case below, the automatic braking system did it, but in other the driver went over a curb and the vehicle decided there had been a collision and disabled itself.https://youtu.be/uvc0hmovZvE

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 07:07:08 pm
content: In that case I'd expect a notification of what it is about to do or what decision it is about to make and an option to override it otherwise the driver is not fully in control.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 07:57:23 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on September 20, 2022, 09:35:48 pmI dunno what the "definition" is. We're actually just trying to figure out what it REALLY is from a business POV. And to me it is just about more control to the company selling it and less control to the user. All this sweetened with stuff that makes it appear on the surface to be a benefit for the user. It certainly isn't all about the "cloudy stuff". There are other means for companies to get the user captive and have more control. More on that below.Quote from: dunkemhigh on September 20, 2022, 09:35:48 pmTwo points here. First, are you sure there is no data hoovering or cloud at all? I highly doubt it. I have personally never seen any of those connected gadgets, controlled by mobile apps, that didn't require an online account and actually used a cloud service behind the scenes (usually AWS or Azure.) If you're absolutely sure your device does not do any of this, please let me know what brand and model it is. I could be interested. I can't find anything like this on the market. If it requires an online account, you can be 99.99% sure they are storing data on servers - and again often AWS. And you usually have no clue about what kind of data it stores, nor how often.Now even if that wasn't the case for a particular product (which again would be an oddball here rather than the norm), this doesn't mean that there still isn't an unbalanced control power between the company and the user. If the device requires a mobile app to function at all, then you're 100% dependent on whatever the company decides to do with it. It could remove some features in some app updates, or even stop maintaining the app altogether and you'd end up with dead beef basically unless you manage to keep an old phone on which the old app will still work. Maybe.So yeah. All in all, any so-called "smart" device out there is a product that the user doesn't fully "own". And that's a general problem. The new trendy business model is all about that. Destroying ownership.Sure that is not to say that we couldn't design products with cool features that may look "smart", but without all this crap involved. But does that even exist these days and is there even a sizable market for it anymore? I doubt that. And anyway, I'm pretty sure the very topic of this thread was more about what I just described than about some fantasy smart devices that are either a niche or don't even exist. Just my 2 cents.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 08:10:04 pm
content: QuoteYou can doubt it all you want, but I have the parts and I am absolutely sure. Of course, I was initially suspicious so both shut it off from the Intertubes and then, separately, monitored traffic.QuoteI'll try and find it. It was a spontaneous purchase that turned out not to have a problem to solve, so is currently shelfware. Hmmm. Didn't find it with a quick look but then figured that the app would throw some light (ha ha) on it. Unfortunately, it's a few years old and my phone doesn't have the app. A previous phone that I know did got wiped when I gave it to my partner. Going through the list of non-installed apps on the phone, and then every app I've ever used on Play didn't turn it up. But I have apps that don't appear in such lists, presumably because the have fallen foul of some Playstore rule, so the lack of it doesn't mean it never existed, just that I can't find the thing now. I'll keep looking, because it's annoyed me, but don't hold your breath.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 08:51:52 pm
content: All those smartphone apps are merely a user front-end to the cloud, with everything being processed and stored in the cloud. Any idiot can write an IOT app if he cares to look how it is done. I think this is a big reason why things are they are, because it is so easy to do it this way. Just slap together a GUI with a couple buttons and sliders and use the cloud API to talk to a database in the cloud.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 09:39:08 pm
content: While much IoT stuff does indeed talk to one of the large cloud providers and utilise the providers app, not all phone apps are like that. The one for my LEDs was definitely not, which was a nice surprise at the time and probably why I can't find the thing now

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 09:44:53 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on September 21, 2022, 09:39:08 pmIf things are only intended to communicate within a LAN they often do. When they need to be accessible from a remote location they are almost always cloud based. The IETF is usually good at foreseeing needs like this, but nobody produced an RFC for "a box in your home and a phone on the move finding each other". Commercial interests probably didn't align.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 01:45:57 am
content: I store everything locally and I refuse to depend on something finite as a the primary and only means.All the programs I use with my phone which is an Android J5 don't need broadband connection apart from the browser which I don't use. I have an old Samba tool which had to root the phone for that so when I take pictures and stuff I can just take them directly from when it is joined up to an access point.Now publishing things like photos fine for people to see but I should not need (or them demand as a requirement) a website in the middle to upload things just to download them again and that goes for solar panel monitoring and datalogging or anything local that I have intention of uploading remotely.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 02:05:51 am
content: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/gcXKiQrSs2MClosing a car door by hand is too old fashioned, got to have an app where you have to tap a dozen times. To make it even better, you have to repeat that several times until you get tired of it and just do it the way you did in your old car.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 02:16:38 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 21, 2022, 04:09:14 pmExactly; it was a typo I didn't catch.Back on topic:Have you noticed how –– aside from full CNC's like Haas –– so many machinists on Youtube use older (1970s and older) hardware? Those are maintainable.Similarly, I find it funny how the same people who are working so hard to exclude humans from the production chain by automation (smart appliances, automated checkout, robot and drone deliveries), are so afraid that AI will exclude humans the rest of the way. It is the exact same thing, the currently prevalent pattern, and the neural networks are just picking it up from the material they are fed: a straightforward extrapolation of the theme.Intentionsdo not matter; what does, is actions. Like they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 04:40:31 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 21, 2022, 05:51:24 pmIt's not oppression, it's just science. By the same token one could call gravity oppressive, since it contradicts my belief that I am a helium balloon.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 05:18:38 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 22, 2022, 02:05:51 amThere is actually one valid use for it -- if you locked your key inside, phone unlock is helpful. Lincoln (and some other Ford models) have a short keypad near the door handle to remote open and that would be handy if the key is locked inside.Manufacturers being overly "smart" to the point of stupid is not a new phenomenon. Almost two decades ago (I had TV then), cars begin auto locking the doors for driver safetybut use a timer for locking after engine start. One heavy snow day, I saw on the local TV news that during the morning, police and auto-clubs where overwhelm by calls for help to unlock car doors -- because many drivers started their car and let the engine run to warm up while they clear the snow off the car. By the time snow cleared, the door was auto-locked.I much prefer the remote and the key being separate. I can clear the snow knowing if the car door is locked, my remote is still in my pocket. It was particularly helpful for times I would lock my engine-running car with the separate remote as I walk a dozen feet to the post-box to drop some letters in. I can do so with the confidence that no one can just get into my car and drive it away while my back was turned.Interesting and funny side note:One day, I was at the post office again. A lady and the police were there -- her green Honda Accord is stolen. I paid attention as I am interested when crimes occur so close to my own home. As the police was taking the report, an old guy pulled up with HER car. He got out and the policeman confronted him immediately -- he pointed out his own green Honda Accord parked 30 feet away, explaining that he just got mixed up when he came out of the post office and drove off with the wrong car. After ID and ownership check, the police and the lady decided to just drop the whole thing and they both drove away happy. I asked and the policeman said: "(driving off with the wrong car) it's more common than you would think, particularly with popular models..."EDIT: added "driving off with the wrong car" to clarify the context.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 05:43:19 pm
content: My partner and I have identical cars: same make, model, even colour. Same year. There is no way I would mistake my tidy motor for her mobile trash can!

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 10:09:01 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on September 22, 2022, 05:18:38 pmBut can you think of a good use case for closing the door by remote?QuoteThat theoretically should not be possible nowadays with encrypted keys.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 11:36:46 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on September 22, 2022, 05:18:38 pmWas that a modern Accord with electronic locking? If it was, that shouldn't happen. Perhaps there was a bug. There are too many codes for a clash to happen. With older cars that used physical keys its surprising how often clashes happened. I unlocked a car with my physical key and sat inside years ago, then realised the leather was the wrong colour. I got out and saw my car, in the same exterior colour and trim, was in the next row. I'm not sure if I got as far as trying the steering lock key, which was a completely different type of physical key from the door key in that car.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2022, 12:33:40 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 22, 2022, 10:09:01 pmFor door closing, not really. I am assuming that if you can close, you can open as well. Wait... after you grab your grocery with both hands and ran into the house while it is raining, you may not want to run back out into the rain to close the car door, so the app would help... Yeah, I know, I am stretching but I just want to dig my heels in to see how well my new shoes work for heels digging.--------------------------Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 22, 2022, 10:09:01 pmQuote from: coppice on September 22, 2022, 11:36:46 pmKeys were not involved, long time ago before electronics got so sophisticated (pre 2000) -- At the smaller post offices, they don't have the drive-by drop off boxes. It was/is common around here people just run in, drop off their mail, come back out and hop into a running car. For letter size mail, one can just run to the front of the post office and drop that in the outside mailbox. For larger envelops or small packages, one has to use the drop off box inside the post office.I did the same (leaving the car running for a minute or two) then, and most of the time I am still doing it out of habit.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2022, 07:27:20 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on September 22, 2022, 05:18:38 pmThis "locking your key inside your car" seems to be something of a trope. It apparently is happening so often that you need to plan for that.I have to ask though: How do you even do that?You need the key to lock the doors, so you need to have it in your hands.There is one thing that comes to mind: The doors are open, you lock the doors remotely, and then close the doors. Then your keys may be on the inside of the car. But on the cars that i used (admittedly a small sample set), the locks automatically disengaged in this scenario.Is that a problem caused by automatic door locking? This is uncommon in Germany, but those cars that have it, only automatically lock the doors once the car is moving.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2022, 09:25:27 am
content: Quote from: Ranayna on September 23, 2022, 07:27:20 amIt was not super uncommon at least some years ago with aftermarket, U.S. remote engine starters – an item that would be hard to register or use in Germany without breaking the law.You do have to take a little care in the design to not lock out the owner.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2022, 10:42:04 am
content: QuoteMine is an older car so you need the key (which has the remote) to lock or unlock it. Leave the keys inside and you're not locking it. Except... if you unlock the car and then don't open a door within (I think) 30 seconds it automatically relocks. Presumably this is to combat accidental unlocking which would otherwise leave the car open. That's fine, but there is also a feature where the boot (trunk to non-Brits) doesn't terminate that timer - only if you open a side door does the relock timer stop. I think the idea there is that you might unlock the car to get stuff out the back and then have you hands full (or be walking off anyway) so it saves having to put stuff down and relock when you're just getting your shopping or whatever out. You can see the problem: unlock, open boot, drop keys in boot, shut the boot and a few seconds later you're stuffed.Have to say it's not happened to me yet, but it shows that this kind of thing is possible (if not exactly regular).

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2022, 05:30:28 pm
content: I had a car years ago that could be locked without key when you shut the door while (IIRC) pressing the button on the handle. (It was using physical keys and not remote stuff.) While it looked handy, of course one day I had left the car key inside and locked it in this way. Yeah, stupid.But hey, this locking feature, as handy as it looked, was also very stupid anyway.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2022, 05:59:20 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 23, 2022, 05:30:28 pmThat used to be the normal behaviour in most makes of car. As you say, only an idiot would use such a feature for day to day driving. Many did, to the extent that a number of people asked why I used the key, and thought they could be clever and show me this special feature. They then had to sheepishly admit to how many times they'd locked themselves out.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2022, 06:20:04 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on September 23, 2022, 07:27:20 amMy post was about some old model car doingauto-locking using a timerunintentionally locking the driver out. My car auto lock too, not at engine start but only when it reaches 10 to 15mph. It also auto-locks some time after the keys are pulled out, but I have not figured out how that is triggered.That said, all the cars I've owned or current own can be locked without keys!Quote from: coppice on September 23, 2022, 05:59:20 pmThat feature however is very useful when your remote has a dead battery. I had to show my kid how to do that until the battery got changed.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2022, 05:59:42 am
content: Look what I found:https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/fmyW651718/overviewQuoteOn the same page:Quote*So they took away the real time graph. Well that isn't very "smart" isn't it?Or do they mean "smart" to mean that they have found a way to manipulate and extort money out their customers to force them into paying more when they feel like it. Customers depends on something important like some readings, they spy on the customers habits, realizes this and starts charging just to view it.In contraryto what I found some days ago:https://support.enphase.com/s/question/0D53m00006ySLuRCAW/unimpressed-with-loss-of-local-api-connectivity-to-envoysQuoteQuote1:Utter bullshit.It is Enphase doing the unauthorized access not the system owners and they have the cheek to turn around and accuse the owners of it for something that they had access to before.2:LIAR.So that is exactly what they did.Please correct me if you think I got the wrong impression?Surprise surprise:https://developer.enphase.com/plansQuote3.10000/28= 357 hits a day. 357/24= 10 hits an hour (1 hit per every 6 mins)Interesting, so they also dictate what you can use it for for residential or commercial.I have got a better uptime guarantee, setup your own datalogger near a system that will allow you to do it.Reminds me of a post about Google "Cloud" cameras "He buys something and then pays to see it."

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2022, 12:26:33 pm
content: If you've bought something and they've then crippled it, particularly in that way, then the thing is surely not fit for the purpose they sold it for and you should be able to get a refund. Of course, they won't see it like that, but that's why the small claims court exists. For £40 or so they will have no choice but to explain properly why they are not breaking the sale of goods act. (This applies to the vendor that sold it to you, who may not be the manufacturer.)The downside is that you might then end up ripping it out and having to replace it with something else.It does look to me very much like they've figured they have a captive market to whom they can dictate whatever the hell they like, because no-one is going to turn off their free power source just because they can't see a nice graph.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2022, 02:45:47 pm
content: I'll be tempted to rip of this "free" power source out and replace it with another "free" power source to get the access I expect without any interfering/tampering or crippling from the manufacturer.I never really trusted manufacturers when they make persistent connections especially to things that I know don't need internet and then betray the customers. In the past at least Sony gave (from what I remember) its Playstation owners a choice, No update to preserve "Other os" feature but no access to the Playstation network, or update to keep on using their Playstation network but loose "Other OS". Sonus warned its users that they will brick their controller if they allowed an update to install.That's sounds like one of the most dumbest things I have ever heard. I would want the datalogging appliance near the inverter connected directly to it not half way around the world through a whole load of finite things.Alarms bells should be ringing as soon as such arequirementdemandis mentioned

author: www.MKRD.info
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2022, 10:16:15 pm
content: Quote from: farlander762 on September 08, 2021, 12:33:17 amMoved in to wife's apartment. She has clothes washer, dryer, refrigerator, all 20+++ years old. The washer and dryer have those mechanical rotary switch "computer". I have replaced some parts on these machines, and restored them to functional state, as need arose. My wife got upset that I repaired them, because of some SCAM "home protect" warranty she had (now cancelled), allegedly she could get cheapest crap they could find if they could not repair the appliance (referring to the SCAM home protect warranty). I convinced her that if we bought modern HORSECRAP, it would be failing every six months, as I hear all others whine about. So, SOLUTION: buy appliances with mechanical rotary controller. NO MICROCONTROLLER!!!

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2022, 07:00:36 am
content: Bought my Miele washing machine in 2003 with microcontroller still going strong except one issue clothering of the liquid soap pipe lines.Repairman took 15 minutes just pooring boiling water in the soap box fixed.Due to that noone washes at 90C programs anymore that is a common cause of malfunction.Poor boiling water every two months to clean or put your washing liquid in a plastick bowl with the wash.Most other issues with washing machines, motor, belt, leakage of rubbers.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2022, 08:25:22 am
content: I always wash towels and bedclothes at 90 anyway.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2022, 08:35:44 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 25, 2022, 07:00:36 amLater Miele machines keep track of your washing and remind you when to run a hot cycle to clean the innards.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2022, 06:48:11 pm
content: Yes. Get of your fat arse and just switch it on. Yes you'll have to remember to buy soap powder. Hang on the fridge has just tweeted me.WTFOoops I need to flush the lav from the otherside of the world.Of course I do! But I need to be able to sort it when I'm on the plane.Hive, JFC, I've got a £10 thermostat with a knob and a timer. Its amazing. Trooley 'kin magic!Not only have people had the wool pulled over their eyes, they expect it to play jingle-bells when they rub up against it.Bless.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2022, 09:17:15 pm
content: Having recently changed out dumb immersion heater switch to an IoT smart one, I can say that it's great and I'd do it again. An example of it's usefulness: turn it on to have a bath and, just before I get in, set the timer to turn it off in 30 mins. Sounds stupidly, er, stupid, but prior to this I would either turn it off first, and then suffer the dreaded cold stream if too much water was taken, or intend to turn it off after but usually forget until told off by the missus. And I can decide to have a bath and turn the thing on from downstairs because I forget to do it when I was upstairs.There are other uses, but something as simple as the above makes a bigger difference than you'd think.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 04:33:52 am
content: Dunkenemhigh, can yours work off an appliance/controller in house standalone or does it require internet and manufacturer's existence/hosting to function at all times?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 10:05:52 am
content: It uses the Tuya SmartLife app, so effectively needs an internet link (might be hackable, but assume not). But should Tuya decide to go tits up we're no worse off since it has a manual control button. Additionally, it has a proper physical switch which is downwind of the smarts, so you can isolate whatever it's controlling without going offline.https://amzn.eu/d/4xw7m6Z