Best CAD Program to do learn for PCB Design - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: igtaba
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 19, 2018, 04:37:17 am
content: Hello Guys, I'm here with a simple and probably repeated question: Which software do you recommend me to learn for the designs of PCB and Schematics?This year doing some university projects I realised that every time I needed to do a PCB or Schematics in the past, I had used a different software and came to the conclusion that I would use my holydays to learn the basics of designing PCB in a suite. Then it dawn on me the question of which suite would be the best to use in relations what is the most use one in the business or the one that would help to use other more easily if require. I have seen an old Q&A video of Dave saying that Altium is like a industry standard but Eagle is not worth the try, and I know he has some videos of KiCAD. Is this relevant in 2018?Or should I see other options?Thanks in advance and sorry for the bad English!

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2018, 04:54:24 am
content: Quote from: igtaba on December 19, 2018, 04:37:17 amAltium has become one of the largest PCB design platforms, so if you want to be paid for design work by an employer (or as a contractor) you probably should go with a major player like Altium.Having said that, I started with Protel in 1990 (Protel later became Altium) & I still use it for some legacy board updates but I much prefer DipTrace which has a very easy-to-learn interface. It can do most of what people need for PCB design, but it is not as powerful as Altium .......... but remember it does not cost nearly as much either.Altium have an annual student package that is fairly inexpensive & DipTrace have both a limited free version & student editions.Altium's star programmers were/are based in the Ukraine as are Diptrace's.https://diptrace.com

author: Harjit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2018, 06:11:03 pm
content: Great suggestions above.Also consider KiCAD. I haven't tried it but a few people I worked with who have used Protel, Xpedition and a couple other tools said it worked quite well.Also, Autodesk's Eagle is available for free or super low cost for students.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 05:28:59 pm
content: I'd say start with something simple. Packages like Altium and Orcad have steep learning curves.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2018, 06:17:57 pm
content: I'm a fan of KiCad, it's powerful and completely free, and getting better all the time.A lot of hobbyists use Eagle but since they went subscription only (right after lying that they had no plans to do so) I never recommend that anymore.Altium is very popular in professional circles, but it's expensive.What do you plan to do? Do you want to do this for a living or are you just making boards as a hobby? I found that once I learned the basic workflow, learning another EDA was relatively easy anyway.

author: dr_chernobyl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 10:07:37 pm
content: KiCad is very good and its becoming even better, I started using Altium at work and I dont like it at all, its overly complex and user interface is shitty but industry uses it and you just cant get away from it even if it gives you cancerI just cant understand why is Altium such a bloatware of a program, other commercial solutions like DipTrace look far better than Altium

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 10:57:22 pm
content: For startswww.circuitmaker.comis a good point to start, we can use for free, and learn the basics of Altium, since circuit maker is very similar to Altium with less power

author: ferdieCX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 11:10:01 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 21, 2018, 06:17:57 pmI completely agree !!

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 02:49:17 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 21, 2018, 06:17:57 pmThe last time I tried KiCAD it only gave the option of a white or black background. Numerous studies have shown that a grey background reduces eyestrain in heavy computer users.Has KiCAD added this basic requirement?

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 03:03:03 am
content: KiCAD schematic editor is configurable for background color (and other colors as well).Same in PCB layout tool and footprint editor.I didn't check the other tools, but those are the three I spend by far the most time in anyway.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 04:47:29 am
content: I never looked, I like a black background, I don't care what studies say, I only care what my eyes tell me. I'm all for having options though.

author: drewnabobber
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 30, 2018, 11:14:44 pm
content: Best thing is to learn how to actually design PCBs, software doesn't really matter. They are all tools in a toolbox and it won't take you more than a week or so to get used to different tools once you understand exactly what you're trying to accomplish. So in a sense not super relevant, it's probably worth more to sit down and learn about a type of circuit or technology you haven't used before.The biggest problem with Kicad is that it doesn't export well to other tools so when you want to take your design further and move to a commercial tool it is a big lift. The response on the forum is that you should write your own exporter since the tool is open-source. Not worth the time when you can use circuit-maker for free and directly export to Altium when you're ready. There is a reason the tools cost money.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 12:46:05 am
content: How many people designing boards in KiCad want to export to Altium? If you need to do something that KiCad isn't capable of doing just use Altium in the first place. I can't think of a time when I've been making incremental changes to the point of requiring a new tool. Most people design the board in in whatever tool they're using, spit out the gerbers and it's done. Doesn't matter which tools I was using, I wouldn't mess around trying to export, I'd start over if I wanted to switch tools.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 04:13:20 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 31, 2018, 12:46:05 amHardly anyone. If you have an Altium subscription you would be unlikely be using KiCad.I do however import legacy Altium design files into DipTrace as I have found DipTrace to be a very productive tool that has the advantage of being almost bug free (something that Altium is not).

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2019, 01:53:11 am
content: I can also highly recommend KiCad.I've used numerous PCB packages over the last 30 years, and I even bought 3 different packages (starting in the DOS age).In those times I've had some horrible expericences.The worst was EdWin. If you deleted a trace in the schematic, sometimes it was not deleted from the internal netlist, which caused errors on the PCB. That was EUR 150 down the drain.In another one, if you dared move a component in the schematic then the the auto wire function would randomly redraw a 100 or so wires over each other, and you spend 15 minutes in pulling those wire straight. That was some cracked version that I did not pay for luckily.Of the 10+ packages I've used KiCad is the best i've used yet.It might not be very polished, and it has it's small annoyances, but it gets improved significantly on an almost yearly basis.In 2018 version 5 came out, which was yet again a significant milestone and it smoothed a bunch of rough corners on KiCad, but I do not design many PCB's and I have not used all the new improved features yet though.Library management has been one of the weak points of KiCad, and has been changed and improved significantly in KiCad 5.I got my fist (very trivial) PCB designed in KiCad in about a single afternoon with the help of the excellent "getting started" manual.But that was in Kicad 4.0 and in 5 so many things have improved that getting started in 5 with the manual from 4 might be a bit annoying for beginners.KiCad is also slowly gainint Spice Simulation capabilities, but it might well be a few years before that works good and is not yet available in the stable version.Because KiCad is open source and multi platform you also have the freedom do to whatever you like with it. KiCad's file formats are all readable ASCII and documented. No artificial limitations on pins or layers. no yearly subscribtion or update fees. No forced misty cloud stuff.There are also side projects around KiCad because of it's open source ness. For example there is StepUp, to export / import a 3D representation of your PCB to/from FreeCad (which is also slowly getting better, and can generate STEP files which are the industry standard I believe).Another side project is a script to very quickly make schematics components from a spreadsheet.Some 100+ pin components can be made by copying data from a datasheet in PDF format into a spreadsheet, adding some metadata, and then running the script to create the component.Yet another side project is skidl. Which is a project do make PCB's from a script. If you design PCB's with highly repetitive parts this can be worth investigating. It has for example been used to desing a PCB for a clock where 60 led's are layed out in a circle.Another side effect of the open source ness of KiCad is that it is used for a lot of open source projects. You can find a lot of them on for example github, comlete with not only the gerbers to reproduce a project, but also with schematics and the whole PCB, so you can use such a project as a start and modify it to create your own custom version. You want a better opamp with adiffernt layout? Another ADC with higher resolution but a different package? Want to change a TQFP to a SOIC version of the same component? Hard to do if you only have the gerbers, but almost trivial if you have the whole KiCad project.KiCad is also being sponsored by Digi-Key. Dunno if they invest money in the project, but they make tutorials and libraries with components:www.kicad-pcb.comIn the "made with KiCad" section on KiCad's website:http://kicad-pcb.org/made-with-kicad/you can find a bunch of example open source projects of PCB's made with KiCad.The Olimexino A64 is on top of the list. It's a 64 bit Linux computer with comparable complexity to the better known "raspberry pie", and it's a pretty complex board. You want to Experiment with what KiCad can do? Get some of those projects from github or their web sites and open / edit them in KiCad. (But I have to say, if you're a beginner it's probably better to start with a much simpler design).Interchangability between different CAD packages for schematics / PCB's is pretty abysmall. But not KiCad's fault. KiCad has well documented and simple file formats, and libraries and scripts to work with those files. The biggest obstacle to overcome are closed proprietary file formats of most commercial vendors. They are afraid to loose their customers, and it would indeed be pretty hard for a company to switch if they have a 100 or so different PCB's designed for their own products which they have to maintain for future updates / mods.From what I know KiCad has become pretty good at importing Eagle Files. This will probably result in Autodesk changing the Eagle file format significantly in the next version of Eagle. From what I know of Autodesk I would not be surprised they would add encryption to the next Eagle format as a "feature" to "maintain integrity" of a design.

author: apurvdate
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 05:41:53 am
content: Quote from: DerekG on December 26, 2018, 02:49:17 amDerek check thishttps://forum.kicad.info/t/monokai-clone-theme-for-eeschema/12917Quote from: james_s on December 21, 2018, 06:17:57 pmI totally agree. I started learning on diptrace, eagle & kicad simultaneously.. now that eagle has switched to subscription, i've switched to kicad + diptrace..i do my own pcbs in kicad while diptrace supports more import/export options than kicad..

author: lordium
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 05:53:50 am
content: At work I use Altium, but when I do my own pcb I use Kicad. I could use Altium but prefer Kicad for some unknown reason. I think it has to do with simplicity and general feel of the UI (feels appealing to me). Never had any problem with not being able to make what I want to make in Kicad, and when I send gerber files to make the pcb, they never complain.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 11:43:52 am
content: Quote from: apurvdate on January 25, 2019, 05:41:53 amVery nice. Can we also have a grey background in PCB layout mode?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 01:05:10 pm
content: Quote from: igtaba on December 19, 2018, 04:37:17 amThat's like asking which drawing implement is the best to learn how to draw. Pen, pencil, crayon, it doesn't matter, it's learning how to draw that counts.QuoteNothings changed much, Altium is still a defacto standard in industry. KiCAD has gotten much better, but Eagle and KiCAD et.al likely aren't going to impress anyone much on a resume at any decent sized company.If you have access to an Altium license then learn that.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 01:21:06 pm
content: Altium may be an industry standard, but it's far from being the only one, and unless something has changed recently, it's a very costly option for individuals or even small businesses.Another very widely used and respected standard is Cadence Allegro, aka OrCAD. I've been using this professionally for most of my career, and the 'PCB Designer Standard' licence is very affordable. Even the most basic version has no artificial limitations on board size, component or layer count, and board files can be freely interchanged between the different levels, so you have a seamless migration path to the most grown-up versions as and when you need them.I tried KiCad many years ago and formed the immediate impression that it had been written by an OrCAD user; the schematic package was oddly familiar, though with some major limitations that OrCAD doesn't have. I hear it's improved a lot since then, and is probably worth a go if you don't want to go spending money.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 01:57:24 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on January 25, 2019, 11:43:52 amYes.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/best-cad-program-to-do-learn-for-pcb-design/msg2068222/#msg2068222

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 04:49:00 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 25, 2019, 01:05:10 pmThe biggest problem with Altium is the learning curve. So far it is the only piece of CAD software I had to use the manual (on paper) to even get started. All in all I wouldn't recommend Altium to get into schematic & PCB design. I'm also not sure about 'industry standard'. Eagle has a pretty stron user base (which is now shifting to Kicad) and most higher end designs are done using Orcad + Allegro.

author: Chris56000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 06:39:44 pm
content: Hi!The only reason I haven't persevered with KiCAD, for me, are twofold, one practical and one aesthetic:–1) The documentation hasn't kept up with the software releases – this is most important whenever the interface changes or some methods of working with the software change;2) I HATE those horrible bloody "primary school 4s" on both the circuit diagrams & PCB layouts!I remember reading some pages from a "Post Office Drawing Manual" from the 1950s and it was clear on this point in stating "primary school style figures" are totally inappropriate on technical drawings of all forms."Every other EDA tool I've used either has some partial or full TTF support (allowing a choice of lettering style) or a vector font that adheres to accepted styles on drawings, so whose daft idea was it to encode "primary school" figures into KiCAD?Please, can somebody put me out of my misery and point me to a method of revising KiCad's native lettering?(I have spent a lifetime studying engineering, technical and electronic diagrams of all varities produced by British firms since the last war, and without exception, all used a closed "triangle 4" and a curly style 9, like the standard figures on Android phones!)Chris Williams

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 06:53:34 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 25, 2019, 01:05:10 pmThat's something I've always found strange though, because as you said the important part is "learning how to draw", once you know how to design PCBs learning a new tool can be accomplished fairly quickly, the workflow is similar on every EDA I've tried. Every time I've taken a new job I've had to learn whatever software tools the company is using. When I've interviewed candidates for (software) jobs I never cared much what specific tools they used before. I mean it's always a plus if they happen to have loads of experience with the software we use but I place far more weight on other factors.

author: Mattylad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 11:09:31 pm
content: Look at what is used within your area, the area that you will travel to.I.e. in the UK it may be Altium, Pads, CADSTAR or others.Pick the tool that is used the most - you may be able to decide which this is by looking at job adverts and see what tool they are asking for knowledge of.If you can mast that tool then changing to another should be fairly like riding a bike. Once you can ride one type, another is usually not so hard to learn.(unless it's a unicycle)

author: Gibson486
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2019, 03:48:42 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 25, 2019, 06:53:34 pmI agree with this. At the end of the day, they all do the same thing. None of them fix bad designs.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2019, 04:13:26 pm
content: There should be an open long running thread for people to ask questions, especially Kicad questions, so short and minor that they don't deserve the starting of a new thread.The kinds of stupid questions that arise when trying to do something simple, that one doesn't know the search term to access or which the documentation doesn't seem to explain.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2019, 05:03:57 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 25, 2019, 01:05:10 pmIf your job is full-time PCB layout, then sure, you want to have gobs of experience using the tools used by potential employers.If your job is design engineer, then experience with any PCB CAD tool is fine, and honestly, if you're anything other than a freshout, you've had experience with at least one such tool, and you should be able to come up to speed on any other in a short amount of time. This is because you already knowwhatyou are trying to accomplish, and it becomes a matter of learning the menus and working with your employer's libraries. You draw the schematic, add design rules (either in the schematic or in notes to the layout person) and hand it off to layout.