Damned tiny components, old eyes. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 06:00:45 am
content: Damned tiny components, old eyes wrong glassesBack, after hiatus of nearly 10 years away from the lab, electronics, many things in the trade is become fuzzy and unclear.Things are getting smaller, text on components, traces on boards, everything is down in size.So what`s the best approach for getting a clear picture?A microsocope, that is ok, whats the best for old eyes?I see Dave use a Tigano, is that the way to go?Large lenses, are they out?I got progressive glasses, but even they are a struggle to use on near field. What are the experience from others regarding glasses?There must be others with the same problems and maybe a solution.Erik

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 06:35:38 am
content: Try a desk magnifier.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 06:43:24 am
content: A binocular optical microscope was the way out of my own misery. If you have the space, don't bother looking at those USB microscopes. They are fine for inspection but lack the 3D vision you need for soldering small components.Mine is an Amscope, bought it with a 0.5x Barlow lens. Magnification is now up to 45x which is plenty, and the Barlow gives a nice working distance.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 09:30:39 am
content: Old eyes generally means loss of accommodation; although, there are other issues too. I am about 80 y.o.For electronics, I use an OptiVisor that has an additional loupe for even higher magnification, like the one shown here:https://shop.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/visors-magnifiers/optiloupe-sku255001600-25612-13786.aspx?cm_mmc=PPC-_-Itwine-_-Google-_-255-001-600&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIj7T92oj08gIVaHNvBB0sEgFrEAQYAiABEgJ4LfD_BwEI rarely need the loupe. It is mostly just in the way.The lenses are glass and have no scratches after more than 20 years. It's been so long I don't remember the magnification. I think it is about 2X.My normal reading glasses are +2 diopter (about 1.5X). I use 1.75 diopter for most computer work. One can wear your ordinary reading glasses with the optivisor. That gives me more FOV and depth than my binocular microscope.I use the microscope mostly for inspection (solder bridges, clean up) and occasional photography (it needs a reducing lens). The oculars are WF so they work with glasses as well as expected, but I like the fact that the wearable head band moves with me. I have some very small parts this Fall to assemble and may use the scope for them, but probably not.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 10:14:55 am
content: 1. - State of the art is theMantistype of microscopes, they let you watch the inspected item like looking at a monitor (but it's all optical, nothing electronic). One can sit normally and see "around" the object by simply tilting it's head, without tilting the inspected object. Mantis are also used by dentist technicians, to prepare prosthetic tooth. The microscope is great in quality, perfect for electronics, but it is also bulky and very expensive.2. - Next to that are the Binocular Inspection Microscopes (trinocular simulfocal if you want to film, too, while working). These looks like "normal" lab microscopes, but there is a decent distance between the object and the lens, enough to work with a soldering iron. Also full optical, no electronics, excellent 3D vision, but hard to use because you need to look exactly through the eyepieces, hard for backbone too when working for long under microscope.3. - Then, there are monocular electronic microscopes, mostly a webcam+display. No 3D perspective and most of them are laggy, the image lag behind your hands moves, making good mostly for inspection only but not for soldering or working live under the microscope.4. - Goggles-like lens, sometimes used in jewellery, too, sometimes like a hat. The image quality is not as good as from a stereo microscope, but easy to put on/off, and gives one complete freedom to move around the lab.5. - Big desk magnifier glass (on an arm), image not very good and usually wiggling and oscillating most of the time.6. - Small but powerful (3-5x magnification) hand magnifier glass, easy to use and very good image but needs an extra hand.I've tried all of them except the Mantis microscope, and ended using a generic binocular inspection microscope for fine work, and one of those "hats with lens" for it's freedom to move and look everywhere. That is when working, otherwise I use a hand magnifier glass.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 11:36:21 am
content: I have vari focals, I presume they are similar or the same as progressive glasses.I have an "AmScope 7X-45X Simul-Focal Stereo microscope" with an LED light ring and I love it, I can use it with or without my glasses (but my vision might not be as bad as yours)Originally I bought the much cheaper "Swift S41-20 Stereo Microscope" (AmScope do a similar, if not identical model) and while it was OK, it wasn't really good for someone with vision like mine, the difference between that one and the 7X-45X is like night and day. Can happily look through my 7x for hours.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 01:22:05 pm
content: I use binocular microscope a head mounted magnifer and jewele loupe dending on the job in hand as well as wearing varifocal glassss.Sometimes even 10x magnification is not highe enough as things have goten so small,fortunately I do not work on the very small stuff on a regular basis most is power electronics with nice big components.

author: SpacedCowboy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 02:49:22 pm
content: To be honest, these days I use assembly. All those BGA chips and 0201 caps aren't worth the hassle IMHO. It's more expensive, sure, and there are commensurate delays, but having crappy eyesight myself, the amount of time it would take me to do all the soldering, then run through it again because something was wrong. Sometimes it was a case of lather, rinse, repeat.Now, I spend a lot more time on the design, send it off for manufacture in China, wait a month or so and in the meantime start something else. When it comes back, it's *far* more likely to be working and ready to go...

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 02:56:00 pm
content: I wishe David could make a video telling about the different tools he have to help with seeing detail of electronics.. he must have all the different microscopes , cameras etc there. Make a for against video about the different tools and who og for what they are best in use.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 03:02:56 pm
content: If cost isn't an issue then nothing beats a Mantis - the slightly 3D view, decent distance and zero-latency of a true optical system, and lack of eyepieces makes working very comfortable for long periods

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 10, 2021, 07:37:43 pm
content: A bi/trinocular microsope plus something like an Eschenback Mobilux 7x 28D 60 do everything I need. The little hand magnifier is great for quickly looking at the markings on a small package.The USB or Andonstar type microscopes are OK for inspection, but you can't easily solder with them.

author: jct
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 09:01:57 am
content: Binocular Microscope (with either 0.75x or 0.5x Barlow Lens) and for really poor eyesight get the best ring-light you can afford.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 05:59:06 pm
content: A desktop magnifier helps a lot but a binocular microscope like a dissecting microscope is better for finer work.OptiVISOR style head magnifiers are suppose to be very good but I have never used one.

author: rfclown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 09:52:07 pm
content: I have to have magnification or I can't work. I'll be 60 next month. I do all soldering under a microscope: stereo zoom. I doesn't matter if it's a 1206 or a 0201, I use a scope for any of it. At home I have Bausch & Lomb stereo zoom 4s. They can be had for <$200 on eBay and are nice scopes. At work we have a mix of brands, but all stereo zoom. I use ring flourescent lights which were fairly inexpensive. For some reason I seem to like the flourescent better than the few LED lights I've tried.For even simple stuff like probing boards I need to use magnification. I use a cheap visor similar to the one in the attachment. I don't like the lighted ones (don't want the light, and don't want the extra weight). I have one at home and one at work. I really need these things. The lenses have a flip down to double the lens and increase magnification, and a small loop on one side to step it up more. I use all these features. There are tons of different models around now, but I got mine about 12 years ago for $5 and couldn't do without them. Even for working with big stuff, like working on the car, I'll use them.Someone suggested a Mantis microscope. You'll want to try one of these before buying it. It really is different. I worked at one company that had these, and some people loved them. I really didn't like them and brought in one of my Bausch & Lombs.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 10:43:41 pm
content: +1 for OptiVisorI use them for everything, no need for any other kind of magnifier. Compact, stows away when not used, no electronics, nothing not to like!

author: YetAnotherTechie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 11:47:33 pm
content: Is an optivisor that much different from x2 or x3 reading glasses?

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 01:57:58 am
content: I use headband magnifying visors all the time. In fact I'm wearing one right now. Cheap and practical. Goes anywhere.

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 03:17:09 am
content: A lot of advices.. and a lot of options!Regarding OptiVisor, there are many different types coming up when searching.OptiVISOR, spelld like this is the brand. Others are copies.So go for the original brand name , or are there copies that are equally good? I rule out China copies. Bought a set years ago, but it was a plastic thing that was horrible to have on.I got a amscope, but never got any good use of it. Always right eye that comes out blurry. Switched the lenses, and still right eye blurry. Always in the end of the range when it come to adjust it clear. It's a strange thing, using på right eye on the left side of the scope, it's clear with both lenses! Must be a fault in the Amscope itself.If I get down to my lab , I will take some photos.

author: rfclown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 04:15:26 am
content: Quote from: YetAnotherTechie on September 12, 2021, 11:47:33 pmI've had my optivisors for about 12 years now. I have bifocal glasses, but don't like the small field of view in my particular lenses. About 2 years ago I bought some cheap reading glasses (3 pairs for $5). I use the reading glasses all the time now for reading. For me they haven't been a substitute for the optivisors; maybe due to the fact that I can change the magnification of the optivisors. Then again I haven't tried using higher magnification reading glasses for the things I use the optivisors for. I only picked ones that I liked for reading common text. If you haven't tried the optivisors, try a cheap pair. I discovered them when I was doing contract work for a luthier. I had brought in my microscope to do work that I really didn't need that much magnification to do (but that's what I did). He gave me a pair of optivisors to try, and I was sold. His pair had high quality optics. I Googled and bought a cheap $5 one that I've been happy with ever since. Soon bought a second pair so I'd have one at home and one at work. For my eyes they are essential.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 07:11:07 am
content: Quote from: YetAnotherTechie on September 12, 2021, 11:47:33 pmNot really IMHO, I find cheap reading glasses from the drugstore much more comfortable than a visor. It's heavy and it's only advantage is that you can flip up the lenses if you don't need them, but then again, I'm not able to work without any magnification. Just for soldering, reading glasses are not enough any more, so I use a microscope. I do own a visor, but I haven't used it since I discovered that reading glasses work better for me.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 07:33:23 am
content: This thing will help a lothttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/33059017674.html?src=google&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=494-037-6276&slnk=&plac=&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&albagn=888888&isSmbAutoCall=false&needSmbHouyi=false&albcp=7303158455&albag=86143156931&trgt=1220734608856&crea=pt33059017674&netw=u&device=c&albpg=1220734608856&albpd=pt33059017674&gclid=CjwKCAjw7fuJBhBdEiwA2lLMYdRNwSqpWY2y4F0qmtlL0I2zMgR6SErYNuMxKf-_wq0wdPTVmbvhpxoC4ZwQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&aff_fcid=e1cb86d388264907b68448045c076ee6-1631518376626-06796-UneMJZVf&aff_fsk=UneMJZVf&aff_platform=aaf&sk=UneMJZVf&aff_trace_key=e1cb86d388264907b68448045c076ee6-1631518376626-06796-UneMJZVf&terminal_id=496c3b87262a44789589de4e77443da4

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 08:20:23 am
content: The visor gives you a little larger working distance compared to reading glasses. So you are less likely to hit your nose with the soldering iron.Form the optics they are similar, just a singel manifying lense at a fixed distance to the eye.The reading glasses are often more compftable to wear. For really small things it needs the strong ones, like +3 dp, not the more common weak ones.It dends on the eyes if this is enough - those who are really short sighted get away with just changing from the normal glasses to safty glasses.The visors may be available with stronger lenses and can be combined with the normal glasses.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 09:09:19 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on September 13, 2021, 08:20:23 amFor me, taking off my glasses is like switching to macro mode. But then I have to keep track of my glasses so using a magnifier and leaving my glasses on is often more convenient.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 09:29:53 am
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on September 13, 2021, 03:17:09 amAssuming you have adjusted the adjustable ocular for refractive differences, I suggest you get an eye examination. Cataracts, glaucoma, dry eye, and age-related macular degeneration (AMD) are common causes for blurred vision that can occur in one eye. Cataracts can be easily treated, as can glaucoma and dry eye. Whether AMD is treatable depends on the type. This is not the place to try to diagnose, which is why an examination is the best option.I suspect the reason a difference is noted only when near focus for the other eye is that when it is blurred in both eyes a difference in blurriness is harder to detect than when one is clear.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 07:41:52 pm
content: Quote from: YetAnotherTechie on September 12, 2021, 11:47:33 pmYes, it is, because you can wear normal glasses underneath them - so you still get corrections for each individual eye, and correction of astigmatism etc. (if you have that condition).Furthermore, the "visor" part acts to block out light from above, which increases contrast and clarity of what you are looking at. Try it!My Optivisors are from the 1960's, the modern ones look exactly the same. Can't complain about the durability, lol!

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 08:04:07 pm
content: Quote from: YetAnotherTechie on September 12, 2021, 11:47:33 pmYou must consider the difference between "diopter" and magnification ("X"). (Diopter/4 + 1) = magnification

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 08:37:13 pm
content: If I am doing moderately small work for a long time, I use the visor. It has "wedge" built into the lenses to ease the "crossed eyes" effect.But, for any really fine work, I have an Olympus stereo zoom microscope at home, and a Chinese version of it at work. I got the one with the dual-beam base that makes it more stable. I do soldering and rework on 0.65, 0.5 and even 0.4mm lead pitch flat pack parts.I have made my own ring lights that fit up around the side of the microscope to give me the greatest possible room for my hands and tools.Jon

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 09:20:19 pm
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on September 13, 2021, 03:17:09 amWhy wouldn't you have contacted amscope about the issue.. clearly its not supposed to be blurry.I assume you know how to adjust the focushttps://www.microscopeworld.com/p-3359-how-to-adjust-focusing-microscope-eyepieces.aspx

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2021, 09:57:23 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on September 13, 2021, 09:20:19 pmThe scope came, and i went away, to a hospital for a spinal surgery (4 prolapses) that went horribly wrong. Now after i had a blood cancer (Polecytemia vera) "run" as added bonus of bad health, i finaly after 10 years, 36 times in hospital and parapledic, in a wheelchair can finaly clear out my lab and start over.Its been a strugle.I looked at the scope tonight. There is clearly somthing wrong with the houseing av the eypieces. The eypices themself are identical, but they are diffrently allined when mounted, so whatever i do, i cant get both in focus at the same time at the same distance. Will get some help tommorow to lift it of its base (I cant lift it out myself) so i can check it out. I had it writen off, as a bad investment. But maybe it can be saved.

author: YetAnotherTechie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 03:59:12 am
content: In some microscopes only one lens is adjustable for different eye diopters, so you need to put the fixed one in focus and adjust the adjustable eyepiece for the other eye.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 05:00:28 am
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on September 13, 2021, 09:57:23 pmWhat Amscope model is it? If you do not know, could you post a side view of the head that shows the eyepieces and eyepiece tubes? Different microscopes have different ways of getting sharp, stereo images.

author: DeanA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 08:29:35 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on September 13, 2021, 09:20:19 pmI've had an Amscope for a while, I think same or similar to this onehttps://amscope.com/collections/stereo-microscope/products/zm-4tn3but I've never been able to get it to stay in focus across the different zoom levels (have to refocus after change zoom levels) is that normal or am I doing something wrong?

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 09:26:03 am
content: Have you tried the usual procedure to make the microscope parfocal?From themicroscope manualfor the Meiji Techno EMZ, an original that Amscope may have copied:Quote

author: DeanA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 09:52:09 am
content: Quote from: jfiresto on September 14, 2021, 09:26:03 amYes, thanks, I've tried all that.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 09:58:32 am
content: Erik, I saw you mentioned that you refrain from using products from china, but I must say that both the Amscope and the small head mounted loupe are excellent products that help me immensely.The Amscope took me a bit of time adapting to it, but I had to properly adjust its oculars: first, close the right eye and put the object in focus with the normal focus control, then close the left eye and adjust the small ocular to rule out any eye differences. It has seen most use for inspections and large soldering jobs on boards. The model is SM-1TS-V203 and I show it inthis video(in portuguese only, sorry).The loupe has been seeing more action lately due to my work on radio chassis and in the attic. Although it is not as light as my dad's old loupe, it has great cushion, us adjustable and allows combining two lenses for extra magnification. The kit comes with a wide selection of very thick acrylic lenses (glass would have been even heavier). This loupe also has three LEDs powered by three AAA batteries. Although I thought it could have been a gimmicky feature at first, it has helped me immensely in illuminating the work I am doing at a given time, especially because the light focus can be positioned independently from the head position. The model itself is unknown but the description tothis videohas the store that I bought it.Good luck in your search!

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2021, 09:10:47 pm
content: If its been sitting for 10 years untouched, in an area that gets damp, could be some kind of mold growth inside the lenses.Quote from: DeanA on September 14, 2021, 08:29:35 amNormal, since you didn't specifically buy a parfocal head:https://amscope.com/products/zmdg6745t

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2021, 07:57:32 am
content: As in, normal with Amscope? I do not think I have used a fully functional, stereo microscope made in the last few decades that could not be made parfocal.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 15, 2021, 08:10:24 am
content: Quote from: jfiresto on September 15, 2021, 07:57:32 amSeems to me, too. I didn't explicitly buy a parfocal head, but still I can make it stay in focus over the whole zoom range.Works similar to this, this just deals with fixed-focus objectives, but it applies obviously also to stepless zoom heads.https://www.microscopeworld.com/p-3359-how-to-adjust-focusing-microscope-eyepieces.aspx

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2021, 09:51:31 pm
content: OK I lied, I tried it with the Amscope at work which is not stated as parfocal head and was able to hold focus.Going to try with my cheap Amscope at home and see if it can do the same.Odd that the one linked specifically stated "excellent Parfocality". Maybe its harder to achieve on higher magnification units?

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2021, 07:04:54 am
content: Perhaps not in this world, but in the profitable world of marketing.Just for fun, I listed and grouped Amscope's list of features, and struck-through and lightened the fluff, redundancy and exaggeration:Both Ocular-Tubes with Adjustable DiopterAll Metal Mechanical ComponentsRubber Eyeguards IncludedManufactured under ISO 9001 Quality Control StandardExcellent Five (5) Year Manufacturer Warranty6.7X-45X Continuous ZoomMagnification Offering Top-Level Quality Images & Parfocality45-degree Inclined Trinocular Head withExtreme WidefieldHigh-Eyepoint Eyepieces30mmExtremeWidefield WH10X/22 EyepiecesLarge Working Distance (4" (100mm)at all magnifications!)High Resolution with Great Flatness and ContrastSharp Stereo Erect Images over a Wide Field ViewCrystal Clear Original True Color ImagesAccurate Alignment Ensuring a Fatigue-Free ViewingFull Optical Glass ElementsPrecise Ground Glass LensAdjustable Interpupillary DistanceMost of the bullets do not survive unscathed.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 16, 2021, 07:27:34 am
content: Constant working distance over the full zoom range actually requires parfocality, that's not just redundant blurb.