Perfboard vs. manufactured PCB, you decide. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 07:43:11 pm
content: It's quite the philosophical question. It's the weekend and you want to build something. Do you order a PCB and wait or do you grab some perfboard and mutter to yourself, "Ah, this will be good enough"?

author: ledtester
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 07:58:39 pm
content: Some quick prototyping techniques:Techniques and Strategies for Building Electronic Circuits -- Leo's Bag of Trickshttps://youtu.be/vq968AFgPhg

author: TheMG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 08:03:41 pm
content: That entirely depends on the situation. if it's a relatively simple circuit with mostly through-hole components and nothing that is really too critical on the layout, trace impedances, etc, then yeah, I'd probably throw it together on perfboard.If there's more than a few surface mount devices or it's a complex circuit, in-house etched PCB, thenmaybelater a manufactured PCB if I want something cleaner looking, or intend to make more than one, but for one-off projects in the past I've mostly just stuck to the etched PCB as the final version.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 08:10:56 pm
content: There is no single answer,other than "it depends".See a few techniques athttps://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 09:25:42 pm
content: I just want the thing made and working.If there's not much repetition in it, and not many components required (say up to 100), I'll gladly make the PCB myself, with a combination of carving up pads/traces using a utility knife, or soldering on chits of copper-clad to make pads on top of the base board. This is a bit tedious, but has excellent performance, being over ground plane. The mostly surface-mounted build allows SMT components as well as THT, which largely get soldered on with lap joints, often with gull-wing lead form.If I'm making more than, oh, two of something, it's worth making a board. If I had a proto system (mill, etc.) I might do that for 2 or 1 as well.For that matter, I've done a very few layouts just to plan them out better, while cutting by hand. This was such a case:https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/Images/Self-Powered_Schmitt.pnghttps://www.seventransistorlabs.com/Images/AvalancheGen2.jpg(The extra stuff on the right is an avalanche pulse generator, triggered by the sharpener circuit.)I normally do a sketch on paper, or in permanent marker on PCB, to plan the rough layout before cutting. The topology of this one was just complicated enough I wanted to try positions a bit faster in EDA.Tim

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 09:42:07 pm
content: It really depends, there are quite different techniques to build a circuit:Professional PCB - good for more complex stuff and critical partsPerf board or similar - OK for simpler stuff, THT and a few SMDsDead bug - good for small circuits also SMD if needed, also RF possibleBread board - can work for surprisingly complicated things, but not really reliable , would not go much beyound 1 boardAir wired spider ball - OK for simple parts, but trickyreuse part of left over PCB from other project - sometimes works nice if suficiently similarI don't think I would really make an in house PCB - maybe hand carved

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 09:54:48 pm
content: There's no problem with doing Manhattan style or perf-board if youtrulyneed it that weekend. However, I've come to the conclusion that I rarely need (anything) the same day/weekend, and that I'd much rather do a layout at the comfort of my computer, with the assurance that the board will work** the first time I power it up. I don't find much value debugging wiring mistakes, although sometimes you can learn something useful.I usually have multiple projects going on, not just limited to electronics, so I am usually comfortable with waiting a week (or more) for PCBs and will gladly spend the time working on another project.**Of course, this assumes I got the layout right on the computer.

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 10:18:01 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 10, 2021, 08:10:56 pmI meant something between that BGA octocore that you've been saving and a LED tester for your first grader's "Show and Tell".Exactly halfway between (geometric average).Quote from: T3sl4co1l on October 10, 2021, 09:25:42 pmI understand.Quote from: TimNJ on October 10, 2021, 09:54:48 pmWell, isn't wanting something truly needing it? Some of us aren't big on delayed gratification. We flunked themarshmallow test.

author: AndrewBCN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 10:29:19 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 10, 2021, 08:10:56 pmYes, I agree, the answer is quite obviously "it depends".Thanks for the link, quite interesting.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 11:19:18 pm
content: If it's a one-off, there's no need to go any further than the prototype, whatever that looks like in your case. Doesn't have to be perfboard, could be dead-bugging or manhattan style or whatever.

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2021, 11:58:16 pm
content: This was a general question, but the impetus was a particular case.I wanted to retrofit my iRig BlueBoard footpedal to use Consumer Controls (MEDIA_*) instead of GATT as having to have an app to translate from GATT to application controls is a pain. Also, since "Blue" is their schtick, they use 4 x AAA to get enough voltage for blue LEDs, as 2 x AAA would we pretty iffy. I switched to yellow LEDs. If I already knew the "BlueGiga" development environment I might have gotten away with reprogramming. I tore the unit apart intending only to work on designing a PCB, but impatience got the better of me so I plowed ahead. Adhesive copper tape came in handy. I've recently dived into the Cypress PSoC4 so I used that.I love the 24mm elastomer buttons but I've never seen anywhere to get them. Most guitar world pedal thingies have those evil metal stud switches. You really can't use them barefoot. Does anyone have a source for the (big) elastomer buttons?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2021, 01:06:18 am
content: Yeah, nothing wrong with something like that.Are those buttons just a rubber membrane with conductive pads and PCB contacts? You can't really buy those. Maybe someone makes little one-offs or something? Dunno. Tactile switches are available in a variety of sizes and styles, maybe one with the right cap would do.Tim

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2021, 01:06:41 am
content: It depends on the complexity, how sure I am my design will work and whether I think I might want more than one of them. Sometimes I design something on the fly and just tinker with it until I have it working just the way I want, often times the prototype is the only one I need so I build it on perfboard or deadbug and call it done. For other things I'll lay out a board, if I want it now I occasionally etch at home but usually I send out for some boards.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2021, 01:09:19 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on October 11, 2021, 01:06:18 amMaybe it would work to make your own? I've seen silicone rubber casting kits. Seems like a lot of work though, and there are lots of other types of buttons out there. Arcade game buttons are cheap and very durable, and they could be activated by a bare foot without being uncomfortable.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2021, 01:47:31 am
content: You left out one really important factor: HOW MANY COPIES OF THIS DEVICE are you going to make? And what is the time schedule for those copies?Just one copy would lean heavily towards using some form of perf-board (there are many).So would being in a super rush.But if I know I will want three or more, then I am going to lean towards getting some boards made. There are PCB makers, here in the US at least, that will get a few prototype boards to you in just two or three days. That is certainly a reasonable wait time.Another factor is just how confident I am in the circuit design. This could dictate at least one (the first) copy being made with prototyping techniques that I have here, in house.I have made PC boards before, many times. But, with the inexpensive prices and fast delivery available today, unless something totally unexpected happens I will not be making my own any more.I have a present project that would best be built with a PCB. I do have time so a few days delivery is no problem. I am fairly confident in the design so I may just add a few extra holes to the PCB to allow me to make mods. And I can divide it up into several, identical PCBs so I can use an order of five or so with only one or two winding up on the shelf. I will probably build the power supply with some form of perf board and the main circuit with a single order of about 5 PCBs. I can be building and testing the power supply while the boards are en-route.BTW, you left off one of my favorite prototype methods: wire wrap. Yes, it does use perf board, but I suspect you did not intend to include it in your check list.I won't be taking the survey as it is way too vague.I also do not like your use of non-standard abbreviations. "profi-board" really? You spelled out "professional" in full in the first choice and "pro" would be a much more acceptable abbreviation. A web search for: definition of "pro" yields the meaning you intended. A search for "profi" does not:https://www.google.com/search?q=meaning%3A+%22profi%22&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=AOaemvLFd9OpUOITRZ3w3tH03iwpURffGw%3A1633917118713&ei=vphjYffwKvC4qtsP-puX8Ag&ved=0ahUKEwj3x8_Ln8HzAhVwnGoFHfrNBY4Q4dUDCA0&oq=meaning%3A+%22profi%22&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAwyBggAEAcQHjIGCAAQBxAeMgYIABAHEB4yBggAEAcQHjIGCAAQBxAeMgYIABAHEB4yBggAEAcQHjIICAAQBxAKEB4yBggAEAcQHjIICAAQBxAKEB46BwgAEEcQsANKBAhBGABQpZQBWPSZAWCBrQFoAXACeACAAZIBiAGfApIBAzAuMpgBAKABAcgBCMABAQ&sclient=gws-wizhttps://www.definitions.net/definition/PROFIEtc.

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2021, 02:01:01 am
content: Adafruit sells 10mm silicone matrix ones:https://www.adafruit.com/product/1611I've used them in a project with just a gold plated interlocking starburst under them and it worked well.The BlueBoard has this thick carbony track printed on. I wonder if that works better or just cheaper?Arcade buttons are robust enough but they are a bit too long (behind the panel) especially the two part actuator and microswitch kind.The survey is not that serious. It's mostly just wondering how people weigh the trouble of handmade prototype vs the trouble of PCB design and waiting. I have lots of permanent things on perfboards. Some I replaced with commercial PCBs later despite the perfboard one being fine. Some things went directly on commercial PCBs. And I had a video frame buffer for a 68000 that lived on a protoboard for years!Quote from: EPAIII on October 11, 2021, 01:47:31 amEntschuldigen:https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profi

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2021, 05:43:01 pm
content: I used to nearly live at a club where we had, arranged by me and another member, a fairly good PCB process with CNC drilling andactually reliablephotoresist and etch process down to 8/8 mils any day without worries (down to 4/4 mils was demonstrated); dry film lamination and strongly agitated cupric chloride tank gave consistent results and thanks to CNC drill first, then laminate process, hole alignment was always good with minimum effort. We were experimenting with through hole plating but that never got such high level certainty so let's forget about that.Combined to this, I still used the ancient Circad'98 PCB EDA which lacks modern features, but is super quick to use in simple designs: you can just start drawing the layout, add footprints as you go and fill up net names to the pins directly in a blazing-fast UI. A simple design really doesn't need a separate schematic.In such environment, I noticed it's almost alwaysfarfaster to do a proper PCB than to build using bare clad, or perf board / strip board / whatever; because in CAD, you get a wire, in any shape, in a few seconds. You can connect two pins in seconds and then later soldering those pins on PCB pads is seconds as well; compare to cutting and soldering wire, keeping it steady with tweezers. Do that 40 times to connect two 40-pin headers, and making the PCB is already faster!From idea to finished CAD file in 45 minutes, then from CAD files to actual physical 2-layer PCB in another 45 minutes, and this could include say 100 holes and tracks and 50 components. And quality looked professional, except for lack of soldermask. We had green dry film soldermask and chemical tinning solution, but those steps added another 45-60 minutes to the process so usually no thanks.Nowadays I just try if I can live by prototyping only very small sub-parts of the problem, those I can't simulate. In such cases, dead-bug/Manhattan is excellent. Most often I just order a professionally made PCB and wait for a week for it. Almost always there is something else to do related to the project, for example writing the initial firmware.But sometimes I kind of miss the process we had at the club (it's still there, I think) and think about replicating it at home.You can do large designs in deadbug/manhattan/stripboard fine without quality problems, but that issloooowand if it's just a prototype, you are wasting work time. Sometimes that's absolutely needed to savecalendartime but I find this is rarely the case.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2021, 05:57:25 pm
content: Well, I have another option! When doing something that requires some logic, I select an existing board design with a suitable CPLD or FPGA, and wire it up as needed. I have done a few of these one-off projects using leftover boards from a previous project, and they worked well.Jon

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2021, 06:14:36 pm
content: Yes, I like reusing parts of earlier projects. Sometimes this involves hacksaw, component removal etc. But very often some earlier project contains a large reusable "submodule" like half-bridge FETs with decent layout, capacitors and gate drivers; even a microcontroller already routed to drive those gates. Just remove excess parts, cut some unwanted traces and there you go, the few new parts can be wired dead-bug.

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2021, 07:46:36 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 11, 2021, 05:43:01 pmWhen I get strongly agitated I don't give consistent results.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2021, 10:27:36 pm
content: Quote from: Renate on October 10, 2021, 07:43:11 pmMost of the stuff I build is tiny SMD so usually I order a board. Another option is to re-use an exisiting board or order pre-assembled boards from Aliexpres / Ebay to goble something together. I rarely use perfboard. I have an etching machine and stuff to process photo resist board but I rarely use it. I probably need to get rid of it to clear some space.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2021, 10:55:30 pm
content: Quote from: Renate on October 10, 2021, 07:43:11 pmWhat do you want to build?#122: Electronic Circuit Construction Techniques: review of some prototype circuit building methodsOr, you can use cardboard from packing boxes, rivets, solder and wires, like this:https://hackaday.io/wa4jatOr, you can solder the parts together without any board:Or, you can just simulate it with LTspice, and skip the building step entirely.

author: MSchalk
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 07:50:34 pm
content: With the cost of boards with pick and place so low from JLCPCB I get basically everything made through them as long as it is more than 5-10 components and I don't mind waiting a few days.