Have you made your own lab?  Looking for voice of experience. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 01:47:49 am
content: I am seriously thinking of making an addition to my house and make it a dedicated lab. Reusing exiting space isn't cutting it. It's made worse by my habbit of sitting on floor and working on stuff. I'm more comfortable that way.At the top of list is MORE SPACE of course. Size wise, I'm thinking of common (in US) two-car garage size. I'm also going to have single phase but split 240V at 50A making two branches of 120V at 50A each. The room will have its own sub-panel. Ground to the house mains is already enhanced beyond code. Of course lightening protection is already there.The room will have a epoxy finished concrete floor, or other synthetic material. Wide open space with no walls inside. Possibly a space dedicated for storage. Separate A/C from the main living quarter. Fume hood on top of working desk. Utility sink for cleaning stuff. I don't want to go so far as making it a Faraday cage. I'm considering having a side entry with wide open access for some heavy stuff.I know there are many folks who has done this kind of thing. Having done this, do you have any regrets or suggestions? This will be a BIG project. I'd like to gather as much wise advise as I possibly can, before going into serious planning stage.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 02:12:20 am
content: Only suggestion I have is to double the powerpoints that you think you will need

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 02:14:56 am
content: You mean "power outlets?"

author: rfclown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 02:26:22 am
content: Besides adaquate power and good lighting, one of the things I've only had once in a lab was easy access to the back of my instruments. In trying to make best use of space, the backs of our instruments are usually against a wall (as in my lab now). It is such a pain to configure connections on the back (ref in, ref out, GPIB, ethernet, trigger, etc.). I had one lab arrangement years ago at work were I could just walk behind the bench to configure things. That was a dream. My ideal lab would allow me easy access to the back of my equipment. I've had arrangements where I had racks, where I could roll it forward, get to the back, and roll it back... but to just be able to get to the back without any hassle is wonderful.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 02:46:00 am
content: If he means power outlets I would say quadruple.Be sure you have a good work surface (formica, granite, stainless steel, tile or something you can find and like) next to the utility sink. With storage under it for various cleaning agents, brushes, and the like.Access to the backs of instruments is excellent. If your hobby activities are somewhat stable spend some time planning how you get from one place to another doing the things you normally do. I end up going all the way around a long bench for some common activities and might have been able to avoid that with some planning. No way to fix mine without starting over, so it isn't happening for a while if ever.Think about whether you want your main computer workstation in the lab. Mine is and I am happy with that, but it consumes much space and resources between all the printers, scanners, storage, network, various input and output devices. Others prefer a lite approach with just a tablet or laptop and high bandwidth connection back into your main setup.Finally, if you do things like 3D printing, CNC routing and other dirty things consider an isolated room for that stuff.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 02:53:18 am
content: Can't go wrong with wire shelves on casters.Fits right in with a technology/lab environment.Handy for organizing your future hoard.You can even stack your ever growing pile of multimeters, power supplies, scopes, etc. And butt-up your bench to it.https://www.amazon.ca/FDW-Wire-Shelving-Adjustable-Capacity-18x48x82/dp/B087QB41XV

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 07:14:45 am
content: Bonjour, i have Had labs since 1960s, 3 times reolcated, so I had rebuilt.Faraday cages needed only for RF front end and spectrum analyzer or EMI compliance work, VEY costly and normally only for large firms.Power electronic design and debugging needs a deep bench depth, and a large metered Variac, GenRad, Superior Electric.A separate bench is the machine shop, just a drill press and machinist vises plus a tap - a Matic.For audio work, a quiet space is needed for listening tests so extra acoustic insulation.Happy to send photos as PM.Bon Chance,Jon

author: KT88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 07:40:20 am
content: An epoxy finished floor might be a source for ESD issues. A slightly conductive surface would be better, I think.I like rfclowns idea of access to the back. This would also allow to use 19" cabinets which would enable better grounding, shielding and power distribution.CheersAndreas

author: CaptDon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 01:55:21 pm
content: If you use the roll around shelving or 'wire racks' you may want to place cut to size sheets of 1/4 plywood on the shelves. Those wire racks never seen to properly accommodate the feet of test equipment and power cords and probes are always falling down through. I tried the plastic shelving from Lowes that you assemble into a rack about 6ft tall and I wasn't happy with it. The stuff on the shelves really isn't very heavy and the shelves have warped/bowed down in the middle. Also you will want a bunch of those plastic cabinets with the drawers. Get some with small drawers, some with mixed sizes and some with only the big drawers. As an example I have my transistors sorted NPN small signal, PNP small signal, NPN plastic power, PNP plastic power, NPN metal power, PNP metal power and then drawers for the various flavors of FETs, UJT's, Diodes, Bridge rectifiers and then there is the cabinets with sorted resistors and capacitors and then you still need shelving for the bigger stuff, inductors, transformers, huge high voltage capacitors. Storage is a big part of the plan in my lab and I have tons of 'dumpster dive' test equipment thrown out by companies stupid enough to believe six-sigma will make them profitable and now the even stupider 'MOMA' manufacturing obsolescence where if you haven't used it for a month you don't need it so throw it out!!!! I have seen complete workstations with scopes, meters, power supplies and GPIB controllers in the local scrap yard. Sad really!!!

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 02:31:19 pm
content: Depending on the OP location, séismique resistance can be a problem eg in California or Japan, even a small earthquake can topple over the wire shelves especially on casters, and even throw test equipment off a bench or shelf.I was in the 1989 California quake, at 17.05 my entire lab was affected, and a lot of equipment fell.Now I use sloped shelves and NO high center gravity storage units.Jon

author: penfold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 04:02:20 pm
content: Great advice so far. Since you've mentioned a utility sink for cleaning, the addition that I wish I'd pre-planned with my setup is a compressed air line for drying things after washing (not for removing dust), preferably with the compressor external to the room (doesn't have to be anything huge and those "silent" diaphragm ones are pretty good.

author: pardo-bsso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 04:54:56 pm
content: It all depends on what you want to do.In my experience (shop of similar size) I found easier to just use a coiled hose for the compressor instead of routing a pipe and putting there the dissecant, water traps and purge valves.Something that I did early on was to put everything on wheels/casters. Even the main workbench but with sturdy levelling feet. That makes cleaning and changing the layout to suit different projects a breeze.

author: mindcrime
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 05:09:11 pm
content: Don't forget to factor in ventilation. If you're going to do things that create noxious fumes and/or particulates (soldering, etching PCB's, laser cutting, 3D printing, grinding, cutting, welding, painting, etc.), you'll want to make sure you have a way to deal with the nasty stuff. This has been a constant thorn in our side at the local hackerspace. It turns out that there are a lot of things you're limited on if you don't have easy access to adequate ventilation.You might also consider a garage style roll-up door, if you expect there will ever be times when you want to work on large, bulky, heavy assemblies of some sort.Quote from: Dubbie on May 25, 2021, 02:12:20 amAnd then double again.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 06:17:14 pm
content: I've standardized on clear plastic containers (with lids).Shoebox size. Double shoebox (19L), and 26L large tote.https://www.homedepot.ca/product/tuff-store-clear-shoe-box/1000705919https://www.homedepot.ca/product/tuff-store-19-4l-clear-utility-box/1000740279https://www.homedepot.ca/product/hdx-mini-flip-tote-red-clear-26-l/1000177842I don't recommend the flip-open lid on the last one as they are prone to cracking if you stack them and are heavy. Get a version with a solid one-piece lid.WRT wire shelves. They do make them 24" in depth but aren't available at your local big-box. And haven't found them with casters yet. 18" is easier to get.https://www.uline.ca/Product/Detail/H-8127/Specialty-Wire-Shelving/White-Wire-Shelving-Unit-48-x-24-x-72?pricode=YL201I put heavy equipment low or at most mid-level with component storage boxes above.I can fit 24 shoeboxes (2 levels high, over-hanging on both sides) on one 48" wide shelf.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 07:15:47 pm
content: Thanks everyone! Oddly enough, just about everything mentioned are things I already do in my current lab. Space behind racks are great. I have 6 racks and I have about 40cm behind it where I can slide in with ease. As to power outlet, I intend to have a large UPS. So number of outlets aren't as critical. Lighting is very important. I just wish LED fixtures and bulbs didn't emit so much EMF. I might do something like drive all LED with DC and consolidate power supplies. Then I can filter out as much noise as I can.As to what I do, I mostly do RF. But never know what I might get into in future. I already plan on getting a small lathe. (bigger than micro one I have now) Right now, I have all shelves and racks on wheels. I hesitate to have anything built-in as changing the arrangement will be quite difficult. Utility sink I plan to buy has two "wings" on both side. Figure I need a place to put stuff and let it drain and dry.I am in Florida, USA. So earthquakes are not of concern. I'll probably tie it to a wall though.Someone raised ESD issue on epoxy coated concrete floor. I'm not sure about that either way. What would you prefer instead? Most synthetic stuff are made of similar resin. Carpet and tiles are OUT. I can't think of any material that are slightly conductive. All of desk surfaces will be covered with ESD mat.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 07:38:28 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on May 25, 2021, 02:46:00 amYou need at least 18 per meter / 6 per feet.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 07:54:07 pm
content: OK, I'll just cover whole walls with outlets. Would that be enough?Seriously though, 4 every 32 inches will be enough. Why 32? That's double the distance of studs in US constructions. From there, it'll go to UPSs, and from UPS, power distribution per rack. On walls that desk will face, I'd like two rows. One row at usual height and another row at a foot or so above desktop level.In my current setup, I have one line dedicated for noise producing stuff, like motors. Vacuum cleaner, compressor, drill press, etc, etc, etc connects to that line. These are separate from ones that feeds UPS that feeds test equipment. They are color coded.

author: richnormand
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 07:58:59 pm
content: To quote rfclown:"Besides adaquate power and good lighting, one of the things I've only had once in a lab was easy access to the back of my instruments. "Do not underestimate how useful/convenient this is.I am lucky to have the space to install my bench at 90deg from the wall. That gives me access to the instrument backs.If you cannot do that at least provide a half meter spacing to the wall so you can shimmy back there.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 08:24:17 pm
content: Don't forget a few power strips on your bench and racks too.https://www.amazon.ca/Outlet-Surge-Protector-Power-Strip/dp/B01N415SDF

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 08:41:06 pm
content: Quote from: tkamiya on May 25, 2021, 07:54:07 pmI know it seems ridiculous. But my experience is that power strips end up being in the way or hard to use (takes two hands to unplug something). It is also my experience that there are local concentrations of the need for outlets. There will be many outlets unused while at a few locations there will be a shortage of outlets. Having a high density everywhere is one solution to this problem.Fastening power strips to shelves/cabinets/benches solves the two hand problem, but reduces the inherent flexibility. Power strips (unless color coded) also have a tendency to defeat the power separation you describe. Also talking US wiring here, power strips also create risks of exceeding the 15A limit of normal outlets. With most lab and TE applications it isn't really much of a problem, but is something to think about.So bottom line - there might be a need for a POA thread (Power Outlets Anonymous) because the symptoms are similar. An ongoing need for more in spite of what seems an incredible overkill. The problem is real.

author: mindcrime
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 09:04:35 pm
content: Quote from: tkamiya on May 25, 2021, 07:54:07 pmIt's a good start... But don't forget about the floor and ceiling either!And being in Florida, hurricanes are always an issue, so you will want a nice generator that can power the whole lab, and at least a 300000 gallon diesel tank in the backyard.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 09:33:04 pm
content: Well....If hurricane is approaching or already here, I'll shutdown everything and unplug the main power. Severe storm with lightenings are very common during hurricane.The way mine is setup right now, I have a 3KVA UPS at bottom of rack #1. From there, giant power strip on each rack is fed. Power strips are afixed to back of the rack facing toward middle of the rack. Time standard rack has its own UPS. Plug on the wall is 30A each, and each feed into a dedicated circuit breaker. Experiment rack also has its own UPS, front mounted power strip, and own power plug. I believe this is a 20A circuit. So connection to wall socket is three places. I plan to carry this practice to new lab.By the way, power cords always hangs down and signal cable always goes UP toward higher position on wall. I have hooks along near ceiling. All 10MHz lab standard, RS232, etc, gets hang there. I also plan to continue this in new lab. This practice not only minimize interference but walking behind racks much easier. I don't do this myself but outlet on ceiling is not a new idea. Doctor's offices and retail floors near cashiers are often wired this way. I just don't need it. Floor sockets are nice but placement is limited and impractical. One thing I'm mulling over is have a strip cut at bottom of drywall, so I can add outlets as needed. (I do have an electrical license)One thing I'm not sure is, connecting on FRONT side. Most commonly used instruments are in front of my desk, or rather, on rack but my desk backs into it. That's not a problem. But less used equipment are in one of 5 racks behind me. There really isn't a good way to make connections short and not cross in front or behind me from time to time. Folks who use racks, how do you arrange your stuff so it's convenient? I could be time-nutting one day, repairing something next day, and doing something entirely different stuff on following days. I can't think of logical ways to do it. My physical strength is very limited. I can't move 100 pounds (that's 40kg) equipment every time.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 10:10:10 pm
content: I do use those long 12 or 16-position power strips, one above the bench, and another on the underside. My benches are attached to the wall, so I cut holes at the back, large enough for power cables, ethernet, clock reference, etc., and the semi-permanent gear cabling drops through the bench and gets connected below. This really cleans up the benchtop. I also have some switch/outlet pairs for gear that could potentially be accidentally turned on my a software glitch (such as my toaster-oven reflow), or where I want an easily-reachable power switch (like my CNC mill).

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 11:18:57 pm
content: Quoteinstead of a hole why not use dado/skirting trunking,boxes fit in the trunking so adding extras is easy,plus there normally 3 compartment so youve some were to run data cabling etc

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 11:43:46 pm
content: Hi tkamiyaI've just finished building a shed out the back, I would of loved to have been able to fit a double garage size but due to space restrictions managed to fit an 8.5 x 4.5m (28 x 15ft) shed on a concrete padI wanted to have both an electronic/lab and workshop space and so have divided it into respective spaces by building a room within it.With a gabled roof the room has space above it for storage and is clad with drywall.Having somewhere withing the space to store things is, in my opinion, crucial since I loath clutterInsulation: I'm sure you have already planned to install insulation but I can't stress the necessity for it enough. All walls and roof have that thin air celled insulation and despite intuition making one believe it wont do much, with a tin lining it does wonders against the heat we have here and now we are approaching winter, there is a discernible difference in temperature when you enter from the outside cold.The lab space has further insulation with the aim of installing a split air con to control temperature and humidity as I envisage doing calibration work there as a sideline businessLighting: As obvious as it sounds you want more rather than less, so ensure you research appropriate lighting for you space but at the same time you don't want to unnecessarily burn up power and light life given that most modern LED lighting has to be completely replaced when it dies. To that end and to simplify wiring try to break up the lighting circuits into usable sections so you can light up only the spcae you are working with. Whilst it's easy to wire it up in a new build your requirements may change over time and so it may be a good idea to install wifi switches. All you have to do is run power to them and then program them to turn your choice of lights on/offWith regards to power outlets, I know from my existing set up that you can never have enough or in the correct location. For this in the lab space I have run a single power cable to the center of each wall. I will be then installing a duct system where outlets can simply clip on to the duct. The duct system I'll be using has a partition separating it into to channels. one for power, the other coms and possibly coax for distributed reference clocks to various instrumentsAs for the floor, thus far I have not given it any thought since the concrete pad has a very smooth finish although I may at least paint it, time will tell.Also give some thought as to services you wish to run to you building.To mine I have run a cat6 cable for ethernet as the modem/router needs to be in the house for wifi and streaming entertainment.The tin shed is surprisingly good as a "faraday" cage as I lose wifi and cell phone signal the second I walk in there.Obviously power and I've also run copper tubing for water. I have run all these things in a trench.I have taken photos along the way and have been planning on creating a thread on here showing the various stages of the build. I have done everything myself and as such it has taken a long time.I'm currently up to plastering the dry wall sheets in the lab and should hopefully have it painted and ready to move into by the end of next week.So far it has taken me 9 months to get to this stage but its been heaps of fun.While I can't wait to have it completed I'm already thinking I'm going to miss the excitement of putting together such a large projectFinally a word of caution, I can easily see how something like this can be never ending with the notorious "feature creep"Set your goals early and stick to them other wise you will be forever building and modifying the space

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 11:45:33 pm
content: oh here's a link to the ducting I was referring to, I'm sure you can find something similar in the stateshttps://cableaway.com.au/172-skirting-duct-2-channel

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 11:46:36 pm
content: Quote from: jonpaul on May 25, 2021, 07:14:45 amWhy not here?

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 12:13:17 am
content: Right! Feature creep.... that's why I plan to have a simple room added to the house. No built in cabinet, tables, or shelves. My lab changes often enough that doing so will hinder me rather than help me. It will be air conditioned separately as current system isn't adequate to support additional room and heat load is so different that it would be impossible to keep every room at good temperature.Insulation? Here is Florida, without insulation, you will slowly die inside! I intend to have double the code of insulation.It sounds like a awfully nice shed. Around here, a word shed refers to a little house to store garden tools.As to tray/chase/etc... electrical cables can not be enclosed or stuffed in conduit of any kind without derating it. This is one of the reasons using conduit with Romex is not usually done. There is an issue with ohmic loss and heat generation. Unless properly done, it will not pass inspection. Besides... I'd hate to run data cable and power side-by-side. Crossing over each other is fine but having it parallel for long distance will cause induced current and transfer of noise.Networking is a whole another issue. I'm cabled all over the place now but it'll all have to be redone as switches and routers will be relocated. I don't like Wifi. So I'll probably lay cat-6 or something.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 12:57:50 am
content: Quote from: tkamiya on May 26, 2021, 12:13:17 amYeah, shed is used in that context here as well but it's increasingly being used to describe any "garage" style building that's used as a workshopQuoteI had to look up Romex, it looks a lot like what we call tps (ThermoPlastic sheathed cable) with the same residential use as it's quite cheap, I have opted for orange circular and have sized the cables, circuit breakers and done the voltage drop calcs, I am a qualified electrician after allWith regards to induced noise, the duct I refer to is made of metal and so mitigates it with a metal wall between the two internal channels, as that is the design intent of that duct.QuoteThe plan is to place a router in the shed for cabled ethernet to to all the devices that need it, the wifi is just there for phones etc since it already comes with the router and since our internet connection has unlimited download it saves using up data on our cells, that plus my wifi controlled switching

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 01:01:15 am
content: Have you given any thought to security for the building? I have yet to address that one

author: gnavigator1007
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 01:14:34 am
content: Probably won't be building anything for myself any time soon, but I've been toying with the idea of a loading dock. Easy enough to add and saves money if you start accumulating big toys by avoiding the liftgate fees for freight shipping.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 01:25:16 am
content: Wow! You think BIG!

author: n5al
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 01:38:30 am
content: Lots of good advice from everyone, so far.In my lab space, I have easy access to the rear panels of all the test equipment. The overall lab layout isn't what I really wanted, but I had to compromise space in order to gain that rear panel access. I wouldn't want to move my 8566B spectrum analyzer if I needed to get at its backside. It has a display section, an RF section, a preselector and a EMI receiver; which are all cabled together. The total weight of the stack-up has to be 60 to 70kg.I built shelves that can support the weight and that have enough depth to accommodate the larger pieces of equipment. My HP 8664A signal generator is about 68 cm. deep, so it needs a lot of shelf depth, especially when you include front and rear cabling.Based on the unfortunate event at W7UUU's hamshack/mancave, I would not use any plastic power strips that have an internal MOV device. The MOV shorted out in his power strip, which set the plastic power strip housing ablaze. He lost almost all his equipment and the building was almost destroyed. There is a running account of the ongoing reconstruction process (with lots of photos) over on QRZ.com, if anyone is interested:https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/entire-shack-shop-man-cave-lost-to-fire-tonight.731273/

author: n5al
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 02:01:30 am
content: Quote from: gnavigator1007 on May 26, 2021, 01:14:34 amTalk of loading docks reminds me of a start-up company where I once worked. Our company's shipping and receiving department was a disorganized mess. One day, they took delivery of a network router, which cost US$60K. Then, someone in shipping and receiving carelessly set the unopened box too close to the outgoing trash. Into the dumpster it went, and nobody at our company ever saw that router again. (Too bad that Dave wasn't around to rescue it from the dumpster!)

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 02:19:46 am
content: Wow.... That's really sad. (referring to fire) At least no one was hurt and he says he has means to rebuild it. It is my habit to check my soldering iron before going to bed. I grabbed the hot end of 150 watt iron once. It's been on for few hours and I forgot about it.That's another reason to have a space behind rack so one can inspect it. Some of those power plugs don't stay very securely.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 03:29:06 am
content: For what its worth, I found this:https://www.electrical-forensics.com/SurgeSuppressors/SurgeSuppressors.htmlPlease note, a lot of devices, consumer type included, have MOV. PC power supplies almost always have them. Almost all of switching power supplies I've seen have them. Apparently, there's a right way to do it and wrong way to do it. For me, I don't buy or use any commercial product without UL or ETL approval seal. UL, especially, is heavy on fire safety.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 09:45:29 am
content: I was on my iPhone and decided to pull up a chair at my laptop to answer this. Mainly because I've had so many issues with a multi use home shop. Plus the experience I've gained at work. So think of my comments as coming from somebody that has a wide array or interest and not completely focused on electronics.Quote from: tkamiya on May 25, 2021, 01:47:49 amNeeding more space is extremely common so you are experiencing a shared problem. There are a few things to consider though, #1 is that any expansion will likely cost you 3X what it would have cost you a year ago. So you really want to consider your timing here. In any event some things to consider for an optimal lab:Lighting. I never knew how important this was until trying to set up a shop in a dark basement. Ideally provide your space with plenty of windows for natural light.AC Outlets. As has already been pointed out you will likely want at least 3X what would be considered normal in a house and possibly much more. Plan for dedicated circuits of course for things like an air compressor, air conditioning and bigger tools.Outlets / plumbing for fluids. Here I'm thinking compressed air lines ringing the lab. If this is done at the start you will never have to worry about buying new or used items that need compress air. Some really nice desoldering stations for example need that compressed air solution. If done conveniently you will be surprised at how useful having this at the start can be. Other sources such as water, nitrogen, vacuum and so forth need more consideration but can also be valuable. In any event if designed in from the beginning this sort of plumbing doesn't have to look like crap.Hi ceilings. I'd have to say most homes in the USA are designed to be easy to sheath with 8ft material and in my opinion this leads to clearances issues. This adds to the expense but I'd seriously consider 12 ft ceilings as drywall comes in 10 an 12 foot lengths so labor wise it isn't much different than the 8 ft boards. There are some good reason prefer higher ceilings if you want me to go into that, I'm time limited right now.Instead of dropping some of you services from the ceiling or mounting to the walls consider tunnels. Especially with larger shops power drops from above can become problematic and you may want to avoid having everything that requires power lined up along the walls. Since we are talking a rather large shop, you mention 2 car garage or larger getting services to any thing in the center of the shop that avoid drops can solve problems. Even something as simple as power to a bench in the middle of the floor can result in cussing when it gets in the way. My shop is currently in the basement and all cords come from above, so I have a real good idea s to how they constantly get in the way. By the way I'm talking a trench covered with diamond plate covers here so that you can access the plumbing as needed.This will likely depend upon local building codes but drywall alone may not make for the best walls, in all places. I may be worthwhile to consider plywood in some areas, and if required by code then covered with drywall. The reasoning here is pretty simple, drywall doesn't hold screws well at all. For light duty hangers and such I'd much prefer to drive screws into a sheet of plywood over drywall no matter what type of drywall screw system you use. You still need to find the studs for cabinets and heavy shelving, so understand what I'm saying here about light duty here hangers.Ceiling fans are great even with air conditioning.I'm not a big fan of epoxy floors. Once damaged they end up getting patched and looking like hell. The best low end approach would be commercial vinyl tiles. If money is not a problem Terrazzo floors are sweet. There are a lot of options in between.QuoteI can't even imagine do that.QuoteIt is always best to put in more power than you think you need. I'm not sure what you are referring to as branches but you will want every branch circuits. I'd most certainly consider at least two circuits just for lighting and several for general purpose outlets. Air conditioning is none trivial and could be a good percentage of that 50 amp feeder.QuoteWhen you say heavy stuff that can support the idea of built in overhead lifting capability. How much and of what type really depends upon what you mean by heavy stuff.QuoteI'm currently trying to refurbish the basement of my house into a general purpose shop and have worked on it as time and money permit. The one thing that really drives me nuts is the combo of low ceilings (joists actually) and drop cords everywhere.If I had the space and money to build an extension to the house I'd almost certainly address the ceiling and drop cord issues. I'd also orient the extension such that the roof would be aimed for solar electric collection and maybe even be asymmetrical. I"d seriously consider a cellar under that extension too.Given the right soil the cellar doesn't add much effort or cost overall and provides space that may not even be taxed. If so that cellar may allow you to somewhat shrink the extension but still have the needed space. That cellar is where you would put long term storage, plumbing and services, noise makers, dust makers and dust collectors. Basically a cellar is the place for dirty and noisy stuff. Further having a cellar means that some of the considerations mentioned above do not have to even be considered as now all services would come from beneath. i'd still strive for lots of head clearance in that cellar. Frankly a cellar also means that your main shop would have a more comfortable floor as it would be most likely sitting wood joists.Enough of the cellar! What ever your do insulate. Insulate beyond the normal suggestions and look at 2x6 walls or other high R-value approaches.Now I prefer windows and frankly that is a huge negative when considering my statement above about insulating. However I'm a huge fan of natural light so windows can make a real difference

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 10:31:40 am
content: Do yourself a favor and get decent high quality workbenches with metal drawers.I dished out the cash to get German-made workbenches from RAU (https://rau-gmbh.de/) and these are just porn and a dream to work with. The drawers all run on really rugged metal rails with bearing balls. Silky smooth, you give them a slight nudge and they retract.Heavy as f"§$%, had to disassemble them to carry them up the stairs to my lab. I'm sure, some day my great-grandchildren will still be using these.You'll find similar quality brands in the US, no doubt.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 10:46:46 am
content: 1. Power points that people have mentioned, and each table has its own breaker. Install another breaker for the lab by itself that does not share with other parts of your house.2. Airflow, and dust control. Need to think and decide if there are activities like spray painting, laser engraving, etc . Don't think about using air filter to solve this problem, you can't. Need a strong partition, and these "dirty" room need to have open window.3. Fire protection. Use gas based piping system, not water-based which was my mistake.4. Temperature and humidity control. To control temperature and humidity, you want an enclosed environment, but that increases CO2 build up and O2 depletion when there are activities inside. I am facing this problem now.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 11:02:00 am
content: Regarding breakers: Put the lights on a separate breaker. Nothing sucks more than to have the lights go out when the breakers trip.You can go further and split it into two breakers so you can work on the lamps without going all dark.

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 11:39:47 am
content: You can get epoxy flooring with ESD properties. It looks amazing when done right. But it is high cost and you do need to maintain epoxy flooring counter to popular belief.Might just want to go with ESD carpet tiles instead. The setup cost to do the epoxy will probably be more than the raw materials with a home / small lab.You can easily fit carpet tiles yourself too. Will need to lay strips of copper tape and earth it to get the ESD mats to work. Testing the setup is also a must. And footware.My current lab is just some cheap wood laminate but if I get to upgrade later in the year or next year into a bigger unit, I'm going with ESD floor mats for sure.Not had any ESD issues yet (that we know of) but it is early days.

author: jpyeron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 01:56:32 pm
content: Quote from: tkamiya on May 25, 2021, 07:54:07 pmAt the bench height we have 2x 2 gang, one on each phase - allowing for the occasional 220V bench top device. So that is 8 outlets every 2-3 ft. There is also a separate circuit for vacuum and other motors - the outlets are different colors.Black - motors, cleaning staffRed - powered by UPSWhite - Black leg of split phaseCream - Red leg of split phaseOrange - very filtered / isolated ground...

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 03:32:01 pm
content: QuoteOr fit an emergency light.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 04:38:44 pm
content: Regarding humidity control, I have dehumidifiers in a couple places. When needed, they run off those 24-Hour timers. Then I can set the duty cycle to the conditions. Don't rely on the humidistat control.Control is otherwise fairly basic:Static -> Don't run the dehumidifierCondensation on cup of cold water -> Run the dehumidifier

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 12:57:05 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on May 26, 2021, 03:32:01 pmLight not so much a problem for me. The AC for testing unknown equipment or when doing experiment can be affected.I tried motion sensor light, but do not recommend unless for stairway or hallway that only need short ON duty cycle.Emergency light, I am migrating to the portable emergency LED lantern. The lamp can auto switch on when is no AC. When needed, it can be unplugged and be moved around and used as portable LED lantern.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 01:45:16 am
content: I believe electrical code here requires lights being on separate circuit from outlets. It only makes sense. Yes, lighting is VERY important. I like it bright! My office space where I am now has seven LED fixtures all on ceiling. I have a second switch which turns all off except for one in the middle. Lighting is very uniform. I also like 4000K and 5000K color temperature.As to sitting on floor.... I'm Asian! It's sort of my habit to sit on floor and do stuff.For tables, I like heavy duty conference room type folding tables. Good ones are costly but very very sturdy. Some of them do not have annoying diagonal members. Put ESD mat on it and it's all done. As to flooring, carpeting is out. Even commercial types get pieces of wires stuck and very difficult to get them out. Utility first, so I'm leaning toward epoxy.Humidity isn't much of a problem. With good A/C, it's usually somewhere between 40 and 50%. Having a good A/C is critical in central Florida. Outside humidity in summer is 100%.As to walls, I need lots of sound deadening. I am very sensitive to sound and any noise coming in will irritate me. That will be one of the point I will have to stress to contractors. Unrelated to this project but I recently had double sliding door replaced. It's very very quiet! I like it.

author: aandrew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 02:15:18 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on May 25, 2021, 11:18:57 pmThis sounds interesting; got a pic / link that I can get a clearer idea of what you're suggesting?

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 02:24:08 am
content: What I was thinking was, instead of using sheet rock / wall material top to bottom, have a gap somewhere and use strip of wood there instead. Then I can remove it and expose the inside where I can drill horizontal holes then route cables. When adding outlets to existing walls, electricians do all sort of things to feed wires. This is just a thought to make it easier. Think of it as continuous access hole....What someone suggested was something similar except it's pre-fabricated and mounted on surface. He posted a link to the channels he mentioned. My only concern is, I don't know how NEC treats it. Bundling of wires (like zip ties) and use of conduit with Romex is prohibited unless wire ratings are lowered (derated). It could get a bit tricky.

author: rjp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 03:07:08 am
content: I recently converted a double garage into a studio/workshop.the only thing I can add was im glad i split it into 2 spaces via a simple drywall frame across the middle, this created one clean space with air con, and one dirty space with power tools and chemical odours with double front doors for ventilation.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 03:40:24 am
content: Quote from: tkamiya on May 27, 2021, 02:24:08 amSeems like a good idea, particularly if you put two strips of wood, one each for your lower and upper row of sockets. The biggest drawback is figuring a good way to finish the interface with the sheetrock. Its easy if your are willing to go proud of the sheetrock but trickier if you want it flush.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 06:50:11 am
content: In 1980s we used WireMold metal conduit outlet strips that were 10' long and had spacing of only 4-6" so that the benches had about 20 outlets per strip.We installed one strip at the rear corner of the benchtop, and a second one just below the upper shelf.We drilled thru the back to bring the line cables thru the bench and out the rear.They were high quality made in USA and have lasted these 40 years.Unfortunately we used rubber SJ line cables which have deteriorated.We found that all the samll Chinese plastic outlet stripos were useless junk.Wiremold /LeGrande still makes these but perhaps not the 6-10'?https://www.legrand.us/wire-and-cable-management/raceway-and-cord-covers/plugmold-systems/plugmold-hard-wired-multi-outlet-strip-3-foot-long-with-receptacles-6-inches-on-center-ivory/p/v20gb306Enjoy,Jon

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 11:27:13 am
content: Quotea random image from googleand a link to my preferred plastic trunking brandhttps://www.marshall-tufflex.com/product-category/pvc-u-perimeter-trunking/As mentioned above metal versions are also available.As for derating the cable,theirs plenty of space for cables to run in,and unless your cramming it full it shouldn't be a concern,infact id go as far as saying running the cables in the wall buried in insulation will have a bigger impact.As for not running network cables in the separate compartment alongside the mains,well having installed miles of the stuff over the years ive yet to find it a problem

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 02:32:22 am
content: I recommend installing diffuse lighting to prevent shadows. I really like linear fluorescent bulbs for this.Quote from: CatalinaWOW on May 25, 2021, 08:41:06 pmI make my own power strips from surface mount double duplex boxes. Fasten 2 or 3 of them in series and they are heavy enough not to get knocked around and they lay flat on the floor.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 02:50:23 am
content: About conduit/chase/duct/etc....It's not about what you or I think. It's all about code. More importantly, it's what a particular you happen to get passes and fails. My project is large enough that I have to get a permit and have it properly inspected. It's further complicated as in US, nation, state, and county have their own code. I heard in Chicago, even residential wiring has to be conduited. In rest of the country, private homes are not required to do that.I like Legard stuff and I use its products myself. Legard surface mount stuff is great for retrofit installs.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 06:27:06 am
content: Quote from: tkamiya on May 26, 2021, 01:25:16 amThings like this sound big but if designed in from the beginning it isn't as bad as you might think. Something like a jib crane isn't really that expensive, in the smaller sizes but the foundation to properly support the crane is going too be expensive to do as an after thought. Likewise a loading dock requires little beyond designing the floor to be above ground level. You of course have the details of a "garage" door and the ramp which are extra but these can be an extreme investment afterwards if the floors are not the right level and no thought was put into where such a ramp might go.The key here for these more industrial add ons is to at least consider the future possibility in the buildings design.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 07:14:41 am
content: You might want to consult with a good electrician that does more than simple home wiring. One plant I use to work in decades ago had a wall mounted wire way system (raceway) in one of the secondary rooms. In there they had cabling for a number of different loads all going to outlets mounted in the face of the wire way. This was fairly big duct maybe 4 inches deep and 5" high and also had 120 VAC utility outlets mounted.A supposed more modern approach is this:https://www.starlinepower.com/raceway/power/.However they have no downloads that also don't require registration so probably a good reason avoid them. There is also this system:https://cf-store.widencdn.net/graybar/6/a/b/6ab0b4bc-462c-42d4-bbef-626470b0d7d8.pdf?response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3D%2288279732-spec-sheet.pdf%22&response-content-type=application%2Fpdf&Expires=1622196328&Signature=LkAejfOBND1yqs3t0iXXXqJxc~nfyr36pbGyG6SCgyj5ZSWO3KZ0YPpsLzKIAY~XPSGbhnhnbG2B12HN4~ILXBj3dOM6woe3rL4ojepQHdLMpagRDx~1QLtDATEv-0cFuAGJLgbhalgC~iPhUapMoh7PkMN~sa93tmc0oSdsZG3VjRHZ3F0M1TFTRQYbjo8Bl~a4wAbuTh0g0xURyDPhSQg22e6YO11EeVNkZkumRpOkZyf8GHDdtoHDe1bdSkNqip0Ggg-e~lznvR37Khu180g6DROfvL8reUFupBnBYbyL380xHsqRxQBdANMFi04z4~3WrzKmbZE0fyFnZTtogA__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJD5XONOBVWWOA65A,which is closer to what I remember seeing on that old system years ago. In a nut shell it is a raceway system designed to support numerous outlets along its run.To be completely honest I'm more likely to go old school in a shop and surface mount outlet boxes and run EMT between them. I actually like the look and it is pretty easy to get 4 outlets per box. Surface mounting has advantages including it is not permanent. It also eliminates breaks in the wall which impacts that air tight seal and the walls thermal capabilities. Also in some ways it is a simpler installation especially in a retrofit. Beyond that if you are a DIY guy and can learn to bend conduit, it is an easy DIY solution requiring a minimal of tools and often zero helpers.Quote from: tkamiya on May 27, 2021, 02:24:08 am

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 07:36:04 am
content: I have long span shelving in my workshop for test equipment. You put your workbench in front. My shelves are 600mm deep to allow me to store boat anchors, PC cases, and misc test equipment on the shelves.- can be free standing or secured to wall floor or ceiling- comes in different lengths and sizes or customized to fit- choice of shelf material- cheaper than chinese shelving- high load rating- top and bottom shelves and unused space ideal as storage- doesn't interfere with leg space under your workbench- earthquake proofI have multiple duplex card file cabinets for storage. I suggest getting these surplus as the newer ones aren't as good. Ensure the drawers are flat bottomed and don't buy storage without rollers. I use these for all component, pcb and tool storage now. Mine are 600mm deep so match the long span shelving.- rollers extend drawers fully- ergonomic side access to drawers- lockable- maximum storage densityFor power distribution I use surplus server PDUs (power distribution units). Front access means you have to route all your power cables past your test equipment, if it's at the rear though you don't want it to be permanently powered. PDUs are the solution to cut power fully to the test equipment then by cutting power to the PDU you can ensure the whole workshop/lab is turned off. Since PDUs can be manged you can automate this process if you like.- come in different sizes- can have basic surge protection- can be managed remotely- load can be monitored- have features such as staggered start and auto power off- removes the need of accessing power outlets- the long ones are ideal for shelvingFor lead storage vertical drawers to keep all your leads tidy and dust free, but easy to access.If you have the money and time I highly recommend this total solution, I discovered it was the cheaper option in the end. Any old free standing table will do for a start, since the shelves are scalable and adjustable you can upgrade as you go. Shelves have a slight overhang so lighting can be concealed.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 11:39:23 am
content: Quote from: tkamiya on May 28, 2021, 02:50:23 amIn some areas, the electrician's union has a lot of pull.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 12:36:36 pm
content: QuoteIn the uk it seems its the equipment manufacturers,the 15th edition increased the sale of earth bonding clamps,the 16th the sale of rcd's and split load consumer units,the 17th metal consumer units and the 18th surge protectors.The sensible money is betting the 19th edition will be sponsored by arc fault disconectors

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 03:29:52 pm
content: Can we please move on from outlets? I have enough information already and this is an area I am properly trained and educated.As to Chicago, I've heard it has something to do with big city fire, but I'm not certain if that's a real reason.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 03:32:49 pm
content: As to rack system, I have something very similar in garage. That's my spare parts/junk unit for parts storage area. I like them. They are deep and strong.