Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2020, 12:05:12 pm
content: Hi All,I'm loosing my mind trying to find a suitable reflow oven (small batches, prototypes etc)! I have the usual china (962 something) oven that does not exactly do a good job, I use a reFlowr for single sided small prototype boards (which actually works very nicely), but I need something bigger (biggest board right now is 260 x 100 mm).I have looked at a large number of different ovens! I had fallen (somewhat) in love with the DDM Novastar GF-B-HT, but it seems pretty impossible to get my hands on that in Europe?!Then I stumbled over the Neoden IN6, a (somewhat) new oven, at a reasonably pricetag (almost seem too cheap compared to "the others") ?But, do any of you use the IN6 regularly, is it "working" or is it just marketing BS ??https://printtec.nl/contents/en-uk/p4357_Neoden-IN6-Conveyor-Reflow-Oven.html

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2020, 12:57:32 pm
content: @VladaAca has an IN6 maybe they could share their experience. The other small Chinese oven that has been mentioned is the T961 which has hot air top and IR underside heating, it has be better than a drawer based unit.Comparing pictures/video of the two I would suggest the IN6 started with a T961, added a sexier shroud and a different controller, although there is no sign of anything heating the lower side at all on the IN6 - culd be an interesting mod if you need an extra bit of oomph in the last zone.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2020, 02:28:11 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on February 01, 2020, 12:57:32 pmThanks, I hope not that too much of the 962 has creeped into the IN6I need a solution that I don't have to tingle with, something that is working out of the box (I know, I need to do profiling and stuff), my goal is not to make a reflow oven(I also buy a hammer to smack nails in wood, I don't make the hammer myself)I'm just not convinced that the IN6 is "good enough". The DDM I have knowledge about will do the job, it just seems to be impossible to get it somewhere in europe...

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2020, 08:11:08 pm
content: There's a tiny used DDM on on eBay from the UK if you wanted a road trip.https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/APS-NovoStar-GF-12HC-Gold-Flow-Benchtop-Reflow-Oven/113912787092?I see no reason why you would think your preferred DDM would be any better than a T961 or IN6 belt oven. They are both heavily compromised belt ovens that can handle small production runs if you work within their limitations, they have multiple zones which helps get that profile as well as making it easier to make 10 boards rather than 1.I wouldn't say either of them are "too cheap" there's not exactly much to them you can get bigger entry level production ovens that don't come from China in the £10-15K range there really isn't much excuse for the £3000 glorified catering ovens you see getting sold to labs. The ultimate solution would I think could come from the guys on here who are experimenting with DIY Vapor Phase perhaps coming up with a kit, its clearly possible to to build one for a fraction of what the commercial ones cost.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 06:02:47 am
content: Quote from: SMTech on February 01, 2020, 08:11:08 pmThanks for the pointer to the oven on Ebay, but the "Heavy Wear & Tear ALL Over unit" kinda puts me off, plus the drivingThe DDM, I would not say its my "preferred" one, its just that I have seen a couple of satisfied users on that, and not much on the IN6. The vapour phase is definitely very interesting, problem is that I'm already short on time, and I need something "plug&play". (BTW, its not the 961 I have, its a china drawer based one, which is absolutely crap)

author: kreeper_6
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 01:48:23 am
content: I grabbed an IN6 last year when they were launched, imported direct as they were not available in the US at the time. I would only consider myself a hobbyist and for me the machine is perfect. Solid build quality, easy to set heat zones and it has an on board thermal profiler which is handy. Simple Controls. I've done a few hundreds boards without issue.I actually got it to help me decide whether to get a neoden 4, which I have. Dealing direct with Neoden China was always very prompt/fast (Sometimes within minutes) when ordering the IN6, Neoden4 and some extra feeders/nozzles.

author: PeterSwann
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 04:06:38 am
content: Let me clear up some confusion here. I have been using an In6 for more than a year and it's an amazing oven. Your suspicion that this is just a dressed-up T-961 could not be further from the mark.The In6 has three top zones and three bottom zones. Unlike the T series (and most lesser ovens) it uses a fairly ingenious heating system comprised of nichrome wire embedded in heavy metal plates. This system makes the warm-up time a bit longer but enables a fully professional oven to run on 110V and 15A. Try that with a T series (or any other respectable oven). In addition, it has a controller that can assist with profiling and give you precise control over the timing of the profile. From the day I completed my first profile, every board has been flawless.Not sure where your speculation came from, but its just that -- speculation. The In6 is a totally novel design that really works.

author: brunolema
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 16, 2021, 08:43:05 am
content: Buenos días,A ver si alguien me puede ayudar. Estoy buscando un horno para pequeñas series de prototipos y he visto el Neoden, que a priori parece una buena opción pero me gustaría tener alguna referencia de alguien que lo tenga y lo use habitualmente.Como de difícil es de configurar, si necesita mucho mantenimiento, si los filtros de humo funciona bien o se necesita instalar una extracción suplementaria para trabajar en interior o algún detalle que os haya pasado que no mencione el fabricante.Gracias por vuestro tiempo.Un saludo.

author: Chad.Wagner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2021, 06:40:32 pm
content: I have done about 500 boards and it has worked really well.

author: GerardG
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 10:02:30 am
content: We have sold a lot of the IN6 ovens in Europe now.I will not place a sales pitch here

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 04:54:06 pm
content: FWIW: I just built another Controleo3 converted oven.They just work, especially for the price. Once I get the profile dialed in, I just drop in the board and run the profile with perfect and repeatable results.Low cost as well; about $350 USD for everything needed for the conversion.

author: RetireMeNow
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 28, 2022, 03:58:07 am
content: Hi,We purchased an Neoden IN6 oven recently and it has been mostly a good experience. We have noticed the powder coated internal surfaces are starting to go brown from the heat.We have had once instance where the fibreglass tape has fallen off the machine and taken parts off the PCB board during reflow resulting in a mess. This tape appears to be lifted innumerous places as per photo. On speaking to the distributor apparently this is "packing tape" which should have been removed. This doesn't line up with unpacking videos/images etcand I suspect they have used inferior tape and are trying to ignore the problem.Appreciate if anyone could comment on this.Cheers

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2022, 02:02:40 am
content: Here's my honest review....I've had my IN6 for (what feels like) forever - and I've manufactured 10's of thousands of boards through it. Is it a great oven? Yes and No.It's the largest (only) conveyer oven you are going to get that can run on a single phase, pulling less than the Max current you can "legally" draw in most residential places. That's a HUGE win as I don't have 3-phase.But the 2 downsides of this is that (apart from super long heat up time, which is a 3rd but minor downside) - is the oven can barely reach and stay at max temp (limited to 300deg in a single zone) which means using commercial grade paste (SAC305, GC10, SN100C) etc is almost hit and miss, and if you have a large panel, or a real dense panel of parts, the oven just can't keep the temp maxed and drops considerably on large-ish (150x150 and up) thermal mass boards.The second downside is due to it's size (or shortness) - it has terrible zone leakage and cannot support zone temp differences of more than 120deg - and due to the nature of it's design, those deltas are needed because to get a PCB to 235-245deg C for the final reflow stage of the profile, your oven has to be set to 300deg.. but you don't want to go above 165deg in the soak stage or you'll burn your flux off too quickly.. and if you leave the IN6 on for more than an hour the middle zones can creep upwards of 30deg.. meaning you're entry zones also creep and all of a sudden your nicely tuned profiles are not so nice anymore.This oven is definitely "BEST IN CLASS" for a conveyer that doesn't require 3-phase and massive current... but it's also the only oven in it's class that I can find, so take what you want from the "best in class" award!My oven is also mostly orange inside now, due to the reflow process. I just changed my chain yesterday to a brand new one as my original one was terribly discoloured AND covered with flux/paste debris from peg holes in parts like USB connectors. We'll see how long it takes for my shiny new one to look the same.During winter, you'll likely run into earth leakage shorts due to moisture in the heating elements. I suffer from this, and I know a few others that also do. I have a set of 3 profiles that are designed to slowly bring the elements up to 150deg in stages, that prevent tripping the power. It takes hours to go through this process when there's an issue. Apparently this is not super uncommon with cheaper ovens, but it's a total PITA when you need to do a production run of something but have to waste hours heating up your oven so it can heat up itself! Doh!I'm not upset with the IN6 - it does work reliably, most of the time. But you need to assess what you plan on reflowing in it before you purchase because it'snot quitecapable of doing high temp unleaded on anything bigger than single PCBs or small panels.Happy to answer ay Q's anyone has.Cheers,SeonUnexpected Maker

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2022, 10:18:26 pm
content: Thanks, I almost bought one to test it out (sometimes I get suckered by these chinese companies about the capability of their machines). Coming from Essemtec ovens its hard to downgrade. Your point about single phase is very true. I bought some Puhui T961e that needed 30 amps single phase but could hit temperature. I didn't like the construction as it didn't seem industrial grade so we considered using them as pizza ovens in our lunch room. I like super small ovens and love the reactions we get when people see my little Essemtec 3 zone cranking panel arrays every 1.5 mins next to my Fuji Chip shooters spewing 4000 parts per panel.

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2022, 02:44:21 am
content: Quote from: Reckless on March 01, 2022, 10:18:26 pmI you didn't think the Puhui T961e "felt" industrial grade, you wont think much of the IN6 - 100% not industrial, though much nicer lookingWhich Essemtec do you have?

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2022, 08:31:55 am
content: Essemtec RO300fc-c. I have always had bad luck with chinese ovens, they look pretty on the outside but are not extremely repeatable and reliable. For me ovens should be no headache devices, you shouldn't have to worry about them, nor should they give you any problems. PCB manufacturing is stressful enough no need to make it worse. Whats nice about Essemtec is they run 25 amps due to their space age vertical laminar air flow design. I'm not aware of any other oven using proper laminar air flow to efficiently heat pcb. Most other ovens run 50-100 amps. 25A is under the normal 30 amps standard 3 phase outlet - makes it easier moving and relocating. Being soo small we could setup and move lines much faster. Essemtec being a swiss company has Swiss level precision, like Rolex. The same oven is used to manufacture contact eye lenses because of its level of extreme precision and temperature accuracy. I never saw any other oven have as many accolades.Its the one device in the line I never worry about.

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 04, 2022, 09:44:07 pm
content: Just to add my experience.We've been running an IN6 for just over a year now. About 500 boards/month.With leaded profiles, it was fine, but once we moved to a lead-free profile, we started seeing element failures in the third zone (running at 285*C). In fairness to neoden, they're spending quite a bit of time trying to figure out what is causing this (and apparently it doesn't affect most people). We've ended up sparing a spare top and bottom element in-house so it isn't a big deal when it happens, other than loss of production time while the oven cools enough to do the replacement. We also are careful to not let us get ahead of the machine by very much as far as production so we don't end up with a pile of boards we can't quickly bake.On the other hand, I haven't found ANY other single-phase ovens I feel would be better. The only gripe I have other than the element failures (that they seem to be working on, and replacing for us for free), is just the slowness of the heat and the recovery time after a heavy board. However, that's to be expected with the 1500W power limit....If the element thing stabilizes, and we get our power upgraded in the shop, I'd be tempted to move to a IN12.

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2022, 11:40:40 pm
content: Quote from: forrestc on March 04, 2022, 09:44:07 pmI have the same zone 3 heat issue - I'm on my 3rd set of heating plates - replacing the plates is not the solution. Neoden have given up trying to work out why - I hope they offer you a better solution than "keep swapping heating plates".

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 05, 2022, 07:00:07 am
content: Quote from: seon on March 04, 2022, 11:40:40 pmWell, I'm on my 3rd set as well - there are actually two different designs of heating plates, and apparently the change was to hopefully resolve this. The old design had metal plates on the side where the power attached, and in all 3 of the failures for that board style, the failure was the wire melting between the terminal and where the wire disappeared under the metal plate. In two cases, it tripped the breaker when the failure occurred so I think it was shorting out.On the 'newer' design they have removed the aluminum and moved to some sort of high temperature board on the back. I've had one of this style fail, but it also was 'odd' when it came from the factory so I don't know if I happened to get a bad 'new' one or if the new ones are failing the same way. We'll see.I'd like to find some other alternative oven in a single phase building (other than doing a phase converter or VFD). There are a few out there. I'm sort of in a position where cost isn't as big of an object as it was once was, but still need to pay some attention to cost. If we get some of the power issues worked out (upgrading service, but sadly can't go to three phase), I'll probably look around. For example there's the GF-120HC from DDM Novastar and others, but I don't have the power budget for those right now.

author: RetireMeNow
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 06, 2022, 11:31:59 pm
content: Quote from: seon on March 01, 2022, 02:02:40 amThanks Seon, we'll keep an eye out for the earth leakage issue. Can you advise if you have these taped areas on your machine?Did you pull it off or did it just fall off by its own accord. I don't won't to remove it if it is providing some heat shielding to the cables inside is all. Thanks.

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2022, 06:27:52 am
content: Quote from: RetireMeNow on March 06, 2022, 11:31:59 pmI did not remove that tape. Never heard that you are supposed to.

author: compuphase
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 06:57:56 pm
content: I just stumbled on this old topic.Two alternatives that run on single phase 230V AC are the Mechatronika MR260 and the Spidé Mistral 260.We have the Mistral 260. I have no experience with either the MR260 or the Neoden IN6.Thiadmer

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 06:00:01 pm
content: If anybody is looking I have a Essemtec RO-360 for sale that runs single phase and only uses 16A max power. Essemtecs are really nice and simple to use.Located in Chicago

author: Styno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 07:43:28 am
content: Quote from: compuphase on July 11, 2022, 06:57:56 pmI would be nice to provide your experience on the Mistral as well, in addition to just telling that you have one. Are you using it with lead-free paste, panels or just single boards, how is the reliability, accuracy of the profile, heat-up time etc?

author: vespaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 10:34:23 pm
content: OK, so I had just convinced myself that the IN6 might be a good choice for me, when I found this this thread.My check boxes are a bit different than many of you; I have 3 phases of 230V/25A so power is not a thing to worry about, but I don't have much space, and I thought that the price point of IN6 was OK.But:- I have to run lead-free and while I can rest the oven between panels, I would prefer to runt at least 250x200 mm panels. 150x150 is simply too small.So given those parameters, I suspect I need to continue looking?Neoden also has a model T8 would that be a contender (if I can find space for it)? Also I found on Alibaba, Hecan HC-R306, which claims to be using "Vacuum ultra-long life nickel-chromium heater". Not sure if this is good or bad(?), but it is about 165cm long, so not too big.BTW, did the heater problem get resolved with the new design, or is it still an issue?

author: GerardG
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 03:07:12 pm
content: Hello,The T8 has no CE.The heater problems are history, we sold 215 units in Europe of the IN6 and numbers are still growing.Spare parts are in stock in the Netherlands and we have a service desk open during office hours.

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2023, 05:27:28 am
content: Quote from: GerardG on February 16, 2023, 03:07:12 pmThat's not 100% accurate unless something has changed in the last 6 months.I'm still burning out heater units in the final zone on the 120V machines. Lost one last week. Not sure about the 240V ones. It's costing me around $1500-$2000/year to operate based solely on replacement elements at $500USD shipped each.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2023, 05:51:58 am
content: I don't get it, if it is a known design and quality issue, why owners are paying for these?

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2023, 07:53:19 pm
content: I am soo glad users are posting about this issue on this forum. I almost bought one to try out, really surprised that Neoden is not extending the warranty. It sounds like a product design flaw. I'd be pretty upset if I had to replace heaters every few years. My Essemtec reflow ovens have been soo good to me that I expect all ovens not to give ANY problems.

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2023, 11:43:19 pm
content: Quote from: Reckless on March 30, 2023, 07:53:19 pmTry every few months.

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 12:00:30 am
content: Some more information for those who are curious.We've lost at least 6-7 elements since we switched to lead-free processing mid-year 2021. Before that we didn't have any failures. We've only lost zone 3 elements, so this is a heat-related failure.We run the final zone at 280*C which is about the minimum we can run while still meeting temperature/time restrictions on the flux we use (that is, time above TAL and time before flux exhaustion).The attached picture shows the method of failure. Basically the element wires are attached to those copper/brass spacers. The element (nichrome?) wire attaches to the bottom of the screw. The wire always vaporizes between the screw and the element. I'm assuming that what is happening here is that the wire in that area is more likely to get hot because it isn't directly in contact with aluminum. As a result, it can overheat and vaporize.On the most recent exchange with them, I've suggested that they replace that last piece of wire with a section of copper wire to see if that resolves it. Or, alternatively, move to dual 240V elements such that each would take half the heat and would probably be made out of thicker wire. If the 240V ovens are not failing, then this might be the case - although I'm 99% sure they sent me a 240V element once and it failed as well.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 03:49:05 am
content: I have an obsession with small reflow ovens and have tried almost all: mancorp, torch, puhui, essemtec, vitronics, novastar, goldflow, heller. Im skipping the Neoden. I have both Essemtecs and Vitronics spare ovens for sale which come highly recommended. These are the only 2 that have worked for me. None of that $500 heater elements going out every few months junk.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 05:20:59 am
content: I suspect that for the price of that Essemtec one could buy a lifetime supply of replacement heaters and still have enough money left to buy a second oven just in case...

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 05:39:57 am
content: Quote from: asmi on March 31, 2023, 05:20:59 amMaybe, but what is the cost of the downtime while waiting for and replacing the heaters?

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 05:44:32 am
content: Quote from: Kean on March 31, 2023, 05:39:57 amFor me - zero, or very close to zero. If it would be something more significant, I'd simply stock up with replacement parts. It would still likely be an order of magnitude cheaper.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 06:43:37 am
content: Quote from: asmi on March 31, 2023, 05:44:32 amI suspect you are not the target market for an IN6 then, and like me can get away with a desktop oven.I was seriously considering an IN6 now I have my 2nd hand CHMT-560P4 running, but I would have to rearrange things a lot to make the space. Not worth it when I'd only run it one day a month or so.I'm likely to just buy (build?) a better unit than my current T-962A. I have my eye on a T-937M or an RF-A350.

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 06:51:15 am
content: Quote from: Kean on March 31, 2023, 05:39:57 amAbout an hour for the oven to cool down enough. Hour to do the replacement. Half hour to order the next set of spares.Still not happy though.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 06:55:09 am
content: Quote from: forrestc on March 31, 2023, 06:51:15 amPlus a bunch of time reworking boards that didn't reflow properly before you noticed the issue...

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 07:27:56 am
content: Quote from: Reckless on March 31, 2023, 03:49:05 amThis is great unless you don't have three phase in your building. Unless you're counting the Essemtec RO06-plus batch, which I wouldn't even consider at this point for various reasons related to our boards and cycle time.As far as I can tell there are only a few options for single phase ovens. I started a thread athttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/survey-of-single-phase-reflow-ovens/to gather data on all of them that we're aware of, the resulting spreadsheet is athttps://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tIwnTBt4pOaDvgcw82zICtrGg5a3lDscmnBiiCTgCuQ/edit?usp=sharing. If you have info about single phase ovens I haven't listed, please let me know.Now I have more power in my facility (sadly 3 phase isn't even close to the area), I'm considering switching to something other than the IN6, but I'm also worried about the whole "devil you know versus the devil you don't" thing. On the other hand, I can always keep the In6 as a spare as it can just be plugged into a 120V outlet...

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 07:31:18 am
content: Quote from: Kean on March 31, 2023, 06:55:09 amThat doesn't happen with the IN6.It has a large "everything is at temperature" indicator strip on the entrance. When the element fails, the light goes off and stays off. Plus, because of the design where a it stores heat in the elements as opposed to relying on continuous heating, even if it fails mid-cycle it still will finish a reflow.There are really a lot of nice things about the IN6. If the element didn't blow up regularly I'd really like this oven. I'd also love a version of it which was like 4 or 5kw and took 240V. Again without blowing up elements. Having to swap an element every few months is a pain in the rear, but I also have to look at the fact that this oven does a pretty good job otherwise.If the IN6 wasn't so unreliable, I'd pull the trigger on an IN12.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 02:22:14 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on March 31, 2023, 06:43:37 amCurrently I'm using a ZB2520HL desktop oven, which is a step up from my old modified T-962 in a sense that it works out of box without any modifications, and it's the largest oven which works off a 110 V/15 A circuit without blowing a fuse, so I'm reasonably happy with it. That said, it's still an IR oven first and foremost, and therefore some connectors like to melt in it for some reason, which is why I'm looking at my options for an air convection-based oven, and as far as I can tell, the IN6 is the cheapest option in that direction.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 03:57:14 am
content: Would like to add on that the ZB2520 is possibly the best bet around. I have T937M and there are some spotting area and connector melt under LF reflow but I use Kapton tapes to cover those connector and that saves the connector from melting.