Boarditto pick/place machine - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 06:32:24 am
content: https://www.boarditto.comMy thoughts :Board area too small (100xq60)Too enclosed -fiddly to accessOnly 16 feedersPlus points :Tool changerSwappable feedersI think it's too expensive to offer anything over the existing Chinese machines

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 08:26:44 am
content: It looks nice. Embedded PC is also benefit.However this one has a maximum board size that is tiny. None of my recent boards will fit!But the machine can be as fancy as you want. All the magic is in the software.For prototypes some parts come in a bag. Can it pick up chips from a loose tray with random orientation? (obviously not upside down)

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 08:46:50 am
content: I don't see a selling point. Small bed area makes it not "production friendly", but the price demands it be so. Fancy box makes it look like a consumer gadget, but a P&P is certainly not in that situation.Software doesn't look to be anything amazing, for all of the 5 seconds it showed and even, glaring interface issue, they should be able to just click-drag the outline and mouse-wheel to rotate, clicking on buttons for discrete jumps so awkward."$550 discount" should be "$550 total price" if you ask me, then they'd have something that would sell like hot cakes if the software was good.

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 09:11:16 am
content: Would be interesting to see a working example.No kickstarter active tho.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 09:58:34 am
content: Interesting that they can sell this for such a low pricepoint.Usefullness: doubtfullMy thoughts: better have a very good semi automated P&P at this pricepoint with a bit larger boardsizes and more feeders.Quote from: sleemanj on May 27, 2019, 08:46:50 amYou have no clue what hardware costs? The BOM is higher than that if the "built in pc" is not a raspberry pi.Then the hours spent in designing etc. have to be earned back.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 10:08:36 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 27, 2019, 09:58:34 amIt is at it's core a small desktop CNC with feeders and camera. Or, a small desktop 3d printer with feeders and camera if you prefer.There is an abundance chinese desktop CNC/3d Printers available at or around the $200 price point, I think $500-600 price point should be profitably achievable for Chinese produced desktop low volume small board Pick and Place.The most complicated (and expensive) aspect of the whole thing from a hardware perspective is the feeders and they would be sold separately.

author: LapTop006
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 10:18:03 am
content: Saw it from a twitter ad, first one of those that's actually relevant.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 27, 2019, 06:32:24 amI agree, *way* too small a board area. Sure most of my boards are smaller, but I certainly would buy a PNP on "most". Perhaps 30x20cm would be enough for me, but I'd also probably want more feeders than it offers.Not that I have the space for a PNP anyway, nor do I think I'd amortise the cost for my hobby projects within the life of it.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 10:46:56 am
content: 100x160 mm (eurocard size) is too small and the number of feeders are too.But! one could hope that this is the first one, scale it up and it might be usable. It looks nice (at least on their video)....

author: wilhe_jo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 11:47:30 am
content: Recently I was thinking about "board-specific" machines...I have some simple boards with only 10 different components (soic and 0805).Would be nice if I had a cheap machine just for that simple design... so no setup required for these recuring designs.That idea came to my mind when I found complete pick and place heads:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/JD1030-SMT-HEAD-Nema8-hollow-shaft-stepper-for-pick-place-head-SMT-DIY-mountor-connector-5mm/32971863896.htmlThere's also a twin head on aliexpress!Together with these cheap eye-killers (eleksmaker laser engravers and such) it seemed to me a reasonable combination for "simple" p&p jobs.Turned out somebody's alread giving this a try:https://hackaday.io/project/161067-thrifty-pick-and-placeHowever, working feeders for cheap are still missing... xy-stage and p&p-head together would be below 250euro... 10 Feeders are in the 700euro range.73

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 12:22:07 pm
content: Quote from: sleemanj on May 27, 2019, 10:08:36 amThen why are there no similar chinese P&P machines for $500 ? Not even for $1000.If there is a market there is a chinese product

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 01:26:59 pm
content: The mechanics are not complicated. You can get a $200 3D printer that has similar mechanics, just not a compressor.You need complicated vision assisted software to operate a pick and place, where you only nee gcodes for a 3D printer or CNC.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 01:47:35 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on May 27, 2019, 01:26:59 pmAnd you need feeders. That is the hard part.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 02:31:51 pm
content: Don't most of the desktop feeders use the PNP head with a pin to pull the tape along?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 02:51:27 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on May 27, 2019, 01:26:59 pmSo the only reason we don't have these cheap $500 P&P machines is because OpenPNP has no chinese language version ?

author: doppelgrau
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 03:05:29 pm
content: I don't know if 500 is realistic, but the liteplacer is 1,7k inkluding software (developed by an european).So I guess the hardware itself for openpnp could be around 1k or less. (That would be a region where I'd get very intrested)

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 08:13:37 pm
content: I think it looks like a cool little machine.We also thought in the past that it was possible to sell a machine for 2000€. But if you think about the costs for support and warranty and want to earn some money, the air becomes very thin.An assembly machine differs fundamentally from a 3D printer due to the higher accuracy, dynamic load and many more moving parts and axes that are to be controlled. If durable parts are also to be used, the price rises rapidly.I think it's good that companies dare to enter this price segment.The market for placement machines is always overestimated anyway.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 09:35:34 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 27, 2019, 08:54:03 pmI don't think that's a big deal - embedded PC saves a lot of potential support issues. Even if the only way to get files on is via a USB stick, it's not a huge hassle. What would be better is if you could boot and run it over a network off a NAS or another PC so it could be backed up as part of normal procedures.QuoteThat's true of any sort of P&P. I hear that the SW from some of the big names is pretty poor, and we know the awful track record of the Chinese machines.QuoteWith 0201, feeders are at least as big an issue than placement accuracy. Also stopping parts getting sucked up the nozzle.Looks like it uses a direct-drive stepper for rotation, so forget about anything finer than 0.5mm - may struggle even with that for larger packages

author: loxodes
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 12:58:11 am
content: The Boarditto doesn't support importing of component positions from a file, presumably the location of each component must be manually set via the interface shown at the end of their promotional video.https://twitter.com/boarditto/status/1132309684289847296

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 07:07:32 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 27, 2019, 08:54:03 pmThe alternative would be an internal ethernet based RT controller which then for future sake should have an open interface protocol.That is already $100-200 cost and still no future proof solution since you still need PC software to run the controller which has the same issues.This is just fact of life, if you buy anything PC based you know it is going to give you headaches in the future.Esp. windows based software where OS support will stop after x years and you have to disconnect the machine.But if you look at CNC hobbieist scene this is going on for 30+ years. There are people keeping their proprietary software controllers from Haidenhahn and the likes of the 80's alive for their lathe's and mill's. Some replace them with embedded chinese controllers that support the same interface, also proprietary and if it fails they have to look for a successor.Others strip everything but the mechanics and sometimes the servo's (although most also replace them since the drivers have also become unobtanium) and rebuilt it with state of the art controllers.Be fair though, those are usecases on machines costing new $60k or even more.This is a machine you buy for a couple of years to help you out place components.No way this is a 10 year machine, it is not built for 10 years, nor will it be supported for 10 years.If you want that you want to build your own machine, use OpenP&P and if anything breaks down you know yourself how to repair it. If some new component is introduced you know how to enhance/expand it. The price will be higher esp. if you use good grade components.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 09:17:20 am
content: Quote from: loxodes on May 28, 2019, 12:58:11 amOh dear... definite clue failure.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 09:23:01 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 27, 2019, 08:54:03 pmHow many expensive brand name pnp machines will still be running a PC with Windows XP whilst still connected to the corporate network?

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 11:37:10 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on May 28, 2019, 09:23:01 amWell if IT in those businesses has any sense&power they will have air gapped them from their corporate network or at least put them on their own isolated subnet. However there are certainly plenty of those machines out there not to mention the ones running DOS, OS2 that chug on merrily for decades, just because an OS goes out of support doesn't stop it working, it just means you need to take appropriate measures. Pretty sure both Juki and Mirae were using XP (Embedded on the Juki IIRC) in machines they were shipping just a few years ago (or fail miserably to update listed OS details on their datasheets/websites). Surprsingly few PnPs running on Linux & its not like that solves any problems on its own, MyData will charge you a pretty penny for an upgrade to TPSys as I understood it when contemplating a 2nd user one.Modern PCs have settled on some nice backwards compatibility solutions on the hardware side now so at least you don't end up in the situation where you need a replacement PC with exactly this motherboard because only it let you reserve that specific address & IRQ for that port, or extinct ports like ISA slots and all that fun. PCI-E & USB should have that problem fairly well beaten. You even have a fairly decent chance of something designed for Win7 working in Win10.This machine however, seems beyond pointless, I'd question the utility of a machine twice the size.

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2019, 05:25:16 pm
content: This machine is a joke... no component import is a major

author: vonnieda
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2019, 07:32:03 pm
content: As an author of a some pick and place software I would suggest patience. Give them a chanceThey are a startup with limited resources. They will, of course, want to make their customers happy. It's a huge task just to get a new machine and new software up and running, and that is obviously the priority. Surely they will see the value in being able to import CAD data when they have the time.Jason

author: GEORGE12
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2020, 02:01:32 pm
content: anyone got this machine and used???

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2020, 08:33:17 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 28, 2019, 09:17:20 amOh my! So true. I never, EVER, did this, even with my first board in 2007. I did hand-edit the very first board file, just copying fields from the CAM P&P file into the format the machine used.Once I got that to work, I then wrote a program to convert the file from the CAM system to the P&P machine's own format.So, if that is true, then the machine is a total joke! Can you save the manually-entered placement data for use at a later time? If not, this thing is a total TOY, sorry to be brutal about it, but that's what it is. I make small runs of the same boards, often several years later. I just load the saved feeder and placement files from a PC and make another batch.And, If you CAN save and reload the placement files, then it would be possible to reverse engineer the file format and load your own data after converting from the CAM format.Jon

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2020, 03:15:07 pm
content: Whats even more laughable is their response to Mike, its a device that operates to XY co-ordinates, the time taken to add this into the software is the work of minutes if they leave out niceties like co-ordinate flipping, rotation and unit conversion and any kind of format flexibility. Their dismissive response (and the hilarious 16 feeder count) suggest they literally have no clue about the problem they set out to solve with this machine and that should be very very concerning. What else have they not bothered to do or not even thought of?

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2020, 03:51:56 pm
content: I don't think they meant this machine as an end-to-end automatic PnP machine for complete assembly, but rather as a helper to place the bulk of small parts. With that 16 feeders would be OK, but they would also NEED to be able to handle 0201. Also I think they need to increase the board size to 240x140 mm, which is a maximum board size that 4030 size framed stencils can handle (and most affordable manual stencil printers use this size frames). Infact I would likely buy this machine if it would support 0201 (and I'm fine with reels-only option), and the board size I mentioned above. I don't mind manually placing some bigger parts, and 90+% of components on my board would fit on 16 feeders (per side).

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2020, 04:23:28 pm
content: Well no they clearly don't but they reduce its usefulness even for that by making it so very very small* and leaving out core functionality even prototypers want repeat runs now and then. If you have to manually teach each location you'd be quicker building it by hand (and no more or less likely to make a mistake). Its cute, not immediately Chinese and they made a video thats about all it has going for it outside of that it has almost no advantages over your little Charmhighs/Neodens/whatever and most of those can't do 0201 either.As a complete aside as a small batch manufacturer I have yet to be asked to place 0201, almost all the people that come our way operate in 0805 with the occasional daring foray into 0603 or 0402 caps they want to get really close to an FPGA or something. 0402 isn't much fun for manual placement (but doable) 0201 would no fun at all (I have seen people say they do on here) and i agree if you were making a quality lab prototyper it should be that accurate but then you could easily ask for 10x the money at which point you are at the Neoden S1 which if it lives up to its claims, does that at way more than 20 parts a minute!* why oh why is a portable 5Kg placer a desirable thing?

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2020, 06:41:54 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on February 08, 2020, 04:23:28 pmI use 0402 parts almost exclusively as they are very easy to place manually (at least for me), they are very cheap ($4-6 for a 10k reel of resistors on LCSC for most values, $10-30 for 10k reel of caps) and they don't take a lot of PCB space. But I have to use 0201 caps under FPGA as 0402 don't fit between vias grid, and this is a serious PITA which I'd rather avoid. For example if you look at my recent FPGA board (link in my signature), I can assemble pretty much all of it with 16 feeders per side. Right now I assemble them manually, and placing 18 0201 caps on the bottom side of a board takes more time than all other components on that side combined. Which is why 0201 is so critical for me. I would probably buy a machine even if all it could handle would be 0201s and 0402s and reels only feeders.As for placement data, I'm sure they will implement some kind of PnP file support as nobody in their right mind is going to be doing this setup on machine every time they need to change a board they are assembling,Quote from: SMTech on February 08, 2020, 04:23:28 pmIf it's not going for speed, there is no reason to make it heavy, infact making it lighter would save a ton of money on shipping, which will likely be welcomed by their customers. Again, I'd be super-happy even if it would only place like one 0201 per 30 seconds, as long as it does so precisely so I won't have to manually "nudge" them into place (everyone who ever had to work with 0201 would probably agree with me).

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2020, 10:00:47 pm
content: QuoteThe answer to that is to make it as an empty box that the end user can fill with sand to add weight and damping

author: GregC
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 12, 2020, 10:00:03 pm
content: I just got a new promotional email stating "The Boarditto is here!". Also noting that their $550 USD “pre-order” discount ends this month (March 2020). Afterwards, the retail price will be $2,500 USD.I do see this as a potentially useful small PnP machine for "assisting" with small board prototyping, and small maker production runs (ie. a handful of small panalised boards).But even at $1950 USD, plus another $500 - $1000+ for a few feeders, plus more $$ for shipping and import duty / taxes, this unfortunately is a long stretch justify for the apparent target maker / hobbiest customer. Adding another $550 USD to the base price, will just further ensure that this remains out of the reach of any small maker, excepting those with enough spare cash to throw at unjustifiable purchases!But the biggest problem at this point is the absolute lack of information, real-world demonstrations, or end-user customer reviews. Something you'd want before making a $3000+ USD "$550 saving" decision, before the end of March 2020 (ie. in 2 weeks!).ps. Yes I have googled, and I've reviewed the entire content of their website (which only took about 10 minutes of reading, to review ALL of the minimal FAQ / Documentation pages). No mention of any updates to allow placement importing, so still appears to be a entirely manual time-consuming job setup process (so probably not really that useful for prototyping).I guess this product is a: "Wait and see if some initial customers provide reviews of their experiences / see how it evolves." Then, wait until volume production hopefully permits pricing to fall into the: "Can't really justify it, but I can just stretch to treat myself to one of these." category.