Smart meters and time-of-use billing in Australia - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2021, 04:40:48 am
content: So I received some interesting news from my energy provider today.Apparently, everyone with a smart meter (which is every new meter installed or replaced in the last few years) will be shifted over to time-of-use billing (i.e.: Peak/Off-Peak and in some cases "shoulder" rates) rather than a single fixed-rate that many people are currently on and would be used to. From the information I received, you won't have a choice and it's happening nationwide regardless of your energy provider or the current plan you're on. Different providers have different rollout schedules.Has anyone else heard about this?Now might be a good time to invest in solar and/or batteries if you haven't already looked into it. Peak rates during summer are usually in excess of 30c/kWh but as low as 14-16c/kWh off-peak.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2021, 05:33:22 am
content: I haven't heard.I don't have a smart meter though, just net metering for the solar.

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2021, 06:04:52 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 07, 2021, 04:40:48 amCan you post this information, photo or link or so on?

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2021, 06:24:27 am
content: On the long run, this makes much sense and will happen everywhere.France is massively switching to smart meters just for this reason.Hopefully people have the choice, at least in the next few years.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2021, 08:19:41 am
content: Quote from: johnboxall on July 07, 2021, 06:04:52 amNope, it was via the phone while I was making enquiries for something else. I'm yet to receive any formal correspondence about it.This is the only thing I've found online so far (which dates back to March):https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/time-of-use-tariffs-solar/I'd say this is happening in the background and retailers will notify their customers when they are due to be cut over.Personally, I have been trying to get onto a TOU tariff since April and faced with nothing but headaches. I have a battery storage system, so I can offload almost all of my peak time usage over to battery (of which charges via solar or during the off-peak period). Ultimately, those living in newer homes or have had their meter upgraded AND have solar/battery systems should come out on-top. Those who might be renting, choose not to or can't afford to install batteries to their existing home could ultimately end up paying more for their electricity. With AGL for example, their peak period is between 1600-2000hrs, Monday to Friday (they have no shoulder charge in my area).In addition, even though I am choosing to switch to a peak/off-peak tariff voluntarily, AGL have told me that it's not possible to go backwards once the change happens (which is fine by me).

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2021, 07:33:09 pm
content: Do these smart meters have any ability to communicate rates so that other devices can make decisions about when to operate?

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2021, 09:24:12 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on July 07, 2021, 07:33:09 pmFrom what I've gathered form Landis+Gyr when I got my smart meter is that these meters have multiple counters.Traditionally two, peak and low demand time.These meters however offer many of these time segments counters, I believe mine has 6, industrial variants up to 24. So the grid company can further specify these time segments.They cannot realtime pull cost data or push usage continously. That's not possible on the frequency they're using, just too many of them.But maybe in the future... ToU billing it is called.I don't know what meter you have, but I suppose the technology is similar since there are standards to tests to.In Belgium it goes one step further in the future and the costs are based on the highest peak kW used. Peak shaving will become interesting there.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2021, 11:18:09 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on July 07, 2021, 07:33:09 pmI think some systems do, for example if you participate in the "Virtual Power Plant" scheme, which I don't.My inverter/battery system is "aware" of pricing, but those are settings I manually enter. They are used for statistical purposes only and have no bearing on where the energy comes from or how it's consumed. I do have some other manual settings which I've configured, so basically my system is set up as follows:1. As the sun starts to come up and the PV starts generating, the load increasingly shifts off the grid and over to PV.2. When the PV is generating excess energy, it all goes to charging the battery (which will have depleted from the day before), at a rate of up to 2.2kW. Any additional excess beyond 2.2kW goes out to the grid and is paid back to me at 7c/kWh.3. When the battery is full, it switches to standby mode. All excess from the PV that I'm not currently consuming continues being fed back out to the grid. (It's at this time I typically set things like the dishwasher and washing machine to start their cycle).4. If by 1300hrs, the battery isn't fully charged (e.g.: on a cloudy day), it will switch to grid charging until 1600hrs. This fully charges the battery at my off-peak rate of 16.73c/kWh.5. At 1600hrs, the peak rate tariff (20.97c/kWh April to November, or 30.70c/kWh between November and April) kicks in, at which point so does the battery. All (or most) energy at this point will come from a mixture of PV and battery (depending on the time of year).6. When the PV array is no longer generating anything, the battery will take up the entire household load, up to 3kW. Any usage in excess of that will come from the grid.7. At 2000hrs, the tariff switches back to off-peak. If the battery still has any charge remaining, it will continue to discharge until "empty" (~10% SoC). The remaining usage for the day is from the grid. Rinse and repeat the following day.I've found that if I don't use the high-power devices (air conditioning, wall oven) for long periods during the peak time, all of my grid energy requirements are shifted to off-peak times.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 12:06:53 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 07, 2021, 09:24:12 pmNo two countries have smart meters with exactly the same functionality. Its a surprisingly fragmented market, for such a basic measurement need.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 01:19:16 am
content: Victorian "default offer" (simple plan available to anyone) still not time of use:https://www.esc.vic.gov.au/electricity-and-gas/prices-tariffs-and-benchmarks/victorian-default-offer#toc-current-default-offer-pricesSolar or not.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 07:33:21 am
content: Quote from: Someone on July 08, 2021, 01:19:16 amFor the moment... it seems to be coming based on the information I have. Of course that could change in the future.Different retailers have different rollout schedules.

author: Alti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 11:04:53 am
content: Quote from: coppice on July 08, 2021, 12:06:53 amYes, you are quite right, this tariff structure varies even within one country so I'd say two competing energy providers might offer different tariffs and different prices. Or one provider might offer several different tariffs.A smart meter is one of the least tariff-sensitive appliances. Its design and price is minimally affected by tariff structure, it is just a matter of software config and you can have weekend tariffs, night tariffs, peak, summer, whatever one can imagine.In contrast to EVs, water heaters, storage heaters, energy storage in general. So an EV design built for 8h off-peak night charging simply won't work if this off-peak happens only during weekends. Same applies to water heating, space heating with heat pumps with off-peak energy etc. Running it during high peak might just make whole appliance uneconomical. Very tariff-sensitive.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 01:49:44 pm
content: Quote from: f4eru on July 07, 2021, 06:24:27 amOver here time-of-use billing is also one of future features proclaimed for smart meters (AKA smart grid). But is has limited use. Or would you run your washing machine at 2am in a multi-tenant building? And if you leave the clothes too long in the machine before hanging they will become musty. What about lunch at 4am? However, for charging an EV over night it might be helpful.

author: Alti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 02:47:34 pm
content: Quote from: madires on July 08, 2021, 01:49:44 pmWest Germany had quite well developed tariff system decades ago. This was used mainly for storage space heaters and storage water heating. Virtually no investment was needed to switch from coal heating to off-peak heating*. However I have heard tariffs in (now) Germany fell out of favour, and because there are no tariffs offered, there are no customers and no appliances that use tariffs. So what you describe is actually a second lap.Regarding washing machine at 2 a.m., adding constraints always increases cost and/or inconvenience. The energy that you want to save is used for heating water and the inconvenience is for spinning the laundry. I do not think there are any technical reasons where you have to do both at the same time. A washing machine might equally well do prewash in the evening and spin at 8 p.m. firsttime, then wait for off-peak energy till 2 a.m. and do main washing cycle in hot water, then once this is done it could dispose hot and dirty water and wait for spinning till morning hours and finish the cycle then. This won't happen not because it is impossible but because energy is/was too cheap and its price is constant in time. Wait till peak 1kWh costs €10 and then go shopping for washing machines.*"Taschenbuch für Heizung- und Klimatechnik" Recknagel et al.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 03:26:06 pm
content: Quote from: Alti on July 08, 2021, 02:47:34 pmA decade ago storage space heaters were phased out by law because of their inefficiency. A few years later the law was changed and you may use them again. But meanwhile the power price has increased to about €0.32/kWh at the moment. So no sane person will consider storage space heaters.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 04:44:38 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 07, 2021, 09:24:12 pmThat is not what I mean.Do the meters have some way to communicate with the user's appliances and systems to announce the current and future tariff rates in real time, so that the user can make informed decisions about what to operate and when? Otherwise these smart meters just seem like an exercise in rent seeking because they are hindering the objective of energy savings.Offhand I know of no meters here in the US which provide this information to the user, and I suspect this is deliberate for the reason I gave above. For the same reason, our ISPs do not provide real time usage data where they implement transfer caps.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 05:25:30 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on July 08, 2021, 04:44:38 pmWe have two types of electronic meters right now. One is simply the electronic version of a classic Ferraris meter and comes with an LCD for displaying the kWh. And the "smart meter" version is basically the same, just with some communication module (plus encryption, certification and so on) for LTE or WiFi (internet access via your SOHO router). It's able to send the power usage to the power company every few minutes. It's more expensive but not smart at all. And both types need to be calibrated twice as often as the classic Ferraris meter (there's a special procedure to calibrate a random selection of meters of the exact same type, not each one individually). Wasted money and more e-junk.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 05:39:05 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on July 08, 2021, 04:44:38 pmThe markets for these things are highly fragmented, but systems to allow appliances to react to grid instructions have been around for a century. Many work by applying a ripple to the mains voltage in a pattern that can be decoded at reasonable cost, originally using simple electromechanical filters to pick out the frequency of the voltage ripple tone. These have been widely deployed to switch appliances based on the current tariff, to shed major loads in times of high network stress, to switching street lights in bad weather, and so on. These ripple control systems have also been used to switch tariffs in multi-tariff meters, although that is more often achieved with a clock these days.

author: Alti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 06:46:42 pm
content: Quote from: madires on July 08, 2021, 03:26:06 pmWell I see it a bit differently.I believe that if youphase outban core tariff based appliances then this is going to ricochet because there would be less customers willing to use the tariff when the market of such appliances shrinks. Then the demand for tariff services gets decimated and ultimately vanishes. And then you end up in a price of €0.32/kWh because this is a monopoly with very low demand for the energy during off-peak as the price is 24h flat.As for storage heating being more or less efficient - that is a matter of relative comparisons. I'd say that idling power station is what is inefficient and using this otherwise dumped energy in a 100% efficient storage heating, with minimal investment cost, high flexibility to follow demand/supply, is/was a cost-effective and efficient idea in many cases. Once someone invents power station or wind turbine that follows demand within hours scale (or does laundry at 2 a.m.), this could change but last time that I checked, throttling up/down power station took severaldays.What is interesting here are not the storage heaters but the eco-system of off-peak appliances, services, meters (also off-peak "night" behaviours) that was essentially killed and now it is being resurrected.So "time-of-use billing is also one of future features proclaimed for smart meters" well maybe this is could be future feature in Nigeria but definitely is not in Germany. But I get the point, when you downgrade metering first, then you can upgrade it later. Politics.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2021, 12:20:40 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on July 08, 2021, 04:44:38 pmThe Australian ones do not at the moment, its a push over their mesh network of your usage that is available to the user by Zigbee in almost realtime (though its not simple/well advertised). This is aggregated by the various layers of networks along the way to a 30min (previously 15min) record that is used for billing after the fact where the applicable tariffs are then applied. The original specifications did have the tariffs being pushed out to the meters and communicated to the local appliances, but I've not seen this functioning in the real world, so it may be hiding in there or may have been quietly dropped (current in home monitors require you to manually enter the tariff details).The main benefits of the smart meters are all for the utilities, automated meter readings, and remote disconnect/reconnect. If you get some benefit they would like you to compensate them for that:https://www.energyministers.gov.au/sites/prod.energycouncil/files/publications/documents/Smart%20Meters%20-%20Officials%27%20Report.pdfQuote from: Halcyon on July 08, 2021, 07:33:21 amYou're just scaremongering at this point, zero information to back up the claim that in the future flat rate tariffs won't be available. They are locked in for at least the next 6 months.Salespeople are pushing time of use hard as they end up worse for most consumers (more profit for the retailer) but any regulatory changes to make them mandatory would be leaking out through the processes required to put that in place. Its not possible for such a scrutinised industry with dispersed control to introduce such a drastic change quickly and/or silently.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2021, 07:01:11 am
content: Quote from: Someone on July 08, 2021, 01:19:16 amI'm sorry? But what?! I am reporting what has been passed onto me by my retailer. As soon as I know more, you'll be the first to know. Depending on where you live or who your retailer is means your mileage may vary. If you don't want to take it on-board as a possibility that it could impact you in the future, well, that's your loss.As for "salespeople pushing" anything, when was the last time you spoke to a sales person about energy rates? Usually it's up to the consumer to decide if the prices they are getting are right for them. Same as insurance, if you don't review your policy, you could end up paying more and businesses know this. If you don't review your energy plans each year or whenever your contracted rates expire, then you're a dummy!ToU rates isn't also doom and gloom either, there are genuine savings to be made by consumers even if they don't have solar/batteries, it just involves a little bit of forward planning and adjusting behaviours."Scaremongering" I don't think so! I invite you to call your energy provider if this potentially impacts you to discuss what the future holds and whether there are better plans out there for you. Do report back. ;-)

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2021, 08:22:14 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 09, 2021, 07:01:11 amCall up retailer to change plan:customer: "I'd like to change to plan X4722A". (plan code advertised through the offical government system,https://compare.energy.vic.gov.au)customer service: "Are you sure, I don't think that plan exists, you could consider our current special offer with blah blah incentives"customer: "You're advertising plan X4722A through the government system, and I would like that plan"customer service: "I'm not sure I can sign you onto that specific plan"customer: "If you're advertising plan X4722A but not able to offer it I'd like to raise this with your supervisor and the government department"customer service: "Oh it seems I can sign you up for that plan, one moment please"its that sort of bullshit that puts me off "customer service" who don't know the actual rules in place and just try to push you along on their script

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2021, 10:58:48 pm
content: Most energy providers (at least the bigger ones) have a small, local team dedicated to existing customers and working out what the best plan is. Their job is to retain customers. They are usually authorised to give larger discounts than the regular sales people. For example, through my previous provider, EnergyAustralia I was able to secure a 36% discount on my electricity. The cost savings were significant. You just need to know the system and get through to the right area, that's not always easy.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2021, 11:33:31 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 09, 2021, 10:58:48 pmFrom my own experience, Energy Australia are a pack of morons and defiantly outsource parts of their customer support. I made multiple complaints to them in regards to the sudden tripling of estimated readings, on average our bills tripled from $120 to $360 and Energy Australia kept blaming the company they had engaged to read the meters. They made no effort to address the problem which went on for many months and it was only when I threatened to lodge a formal complaint with the ombudsman and broadcast their incompetance and negligence publicly that they bothered to contact me and apologise for the distress they had caused. The fellow who called me from Energy Australia was named James and the mobile phone number he phoned from happened to be the same number that James from Yarra Valley Water Customer Support also contacted me on.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2021, 01:55:33 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on July 09, 2021, 11:33:31 pmI agree with you there. I mentioned earlier that I've been trying to switch to ToU billing... I've been trying since April. Had my meter swapped over from the older Type 3 meter to a smart meter. Was happy with the plan they offered, went to switch and I was basically told "computer says no". EA were blaming the distributor and claimed that distributor "denied" the request (which was a lie). I contacted the distributor and they told me it's not up to them to decline such requests, it's up to the energy retailer (which is completely true). Back and forth we went. I ended up lodging a complaint with the Energy and Water Ombudsman and got to the bottom of it. Basically, there is something wrong with EA's billing system where for whatever reason, they can't just change customers over to ToU in my distribution zone. If they did, there was no way for them to bill me. Their solution was to switch to another provider and offered me $50 credit, which I gladly accepted and went back to AGL. At least they are partly/mostly Australian owned, unlike EnergyAustralia who are owned by the Chinese. Turns out AGL were cheaper anyway as they only charge peak/off-peak unlike EA who have peak/shoulder/off-peak rates.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2021, 02:31:24 am
content: I remember a time when there were ads on TV encouraging us to use all the power we want. And we did. One only person concerned with how much power was the one who received the power bill. And short of that, nobody cared how much power you used or when.This daily supply charge bullshit needs to go.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2021, 02:43:28 am
content: QuoteDont worry,they're the same in the uk,with the added bonus of also being lying barstewards .One told me a certain type of energy plan was illegal due to government changes,but then couldn't point me to the legislation as it didn't exist and another told me the fitting of a smart meter was compulsory when i refused to let the meter fitter change my meter who just turned up unannounced. .I'm avoiding smart meters for as long as possible as once everyone's switched over watch the buggers start charging for the actual power there having to deliver due to the lousy power factor of all those led lamps were being forced to fit.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2021, 03:15:13 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on July 10, 2021, 02:31:24 am100% agree, or at least, make it a set cost across all energy retailers.For years the government have tried to make it "easy" to compare energy plans across several retailers. It's anything but easy. I'm pretty good with spreadsheets and even I find comparing prices time consuming. On one hand it might seem like you're getting a good rate, until you factor in the daily supply charge and all the other little add-ons like "summer and non-summer demand" charges and at what time of day you actually use the most electricity.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2021, 04:38:01 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 10, 2021, 03:15:13 amYeah. It's subterfuge intended to wear down the patience of the consumer. I wonder if the long game is to do what the telcos did here and set up a planned usage amount for a set fee. But you're right, it's very hard to pin down a pp-kWh from them, especially the mobs that nobody has ever heard of cold-call and then promise the earth.I had one chap with heavy accent call from within a noisy room so hard to understand but wouldn't tell me the rate until I told him my existing rates.He kept ringing and eventually became abusive so I had to block him. If that's what their sales dept is like, imagine trying to ring for support. The joke of it is I was initially interested.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2021, 06:18:58 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on July 10, 2021, 04:38:01 amIt'll go the same way as the insurance, telco and finance industries -- Those who don't shop around for better deals or even ask their reseller for their best price will end up paying more. While those who spend a few hours each year doing some homework end up making some significant savings. For example, I made a phone call about 6 months ago to my mortgage financier, just asking "is there something better you can do?" and straight away they came back with a better offer, all it cost me was a little bit of time.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2021, 07:22:28 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 10, 2021, 06:18:58 amSome organizations are begging to hear from existing customers. 12 months ago, Foxtel openly requested account holders to call and negotiate in response to the no-doubt changes to the TV viewing habits vs changing financial situations. Some viewers should have easily got more TV for the same money. But it avoided a facebook backlash swarm of customers canceling their accounts.Some time ago I contacted my power company after I thought it was costing too much. This was well after Mal's energy price crusade. I had been too busy with work. But when I rang up and explained myself, the guy back-dated the new rate quite a few months.