Identification of diode in a form I've never seen before  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: moothefish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 07:50:11 am
content: Can anyone tell me what the name of this style/package of diode is? I cannot for the life of me find it online, looks more like a little tantalum capacitor or something.For context, these components are from a 1970s stereo receiver, one on each channel of the amplifier board. I've been having issues with severe hissing noise coming and going and after much troubleshooting I found that when I wiggled these diodes, the noise came and went. I did the usual of resoldering them (several times in fact) but to no avail. One was always much worse than the other and I've now noticed that one has a slight crack in the casing.The issue is I don't have a service manual and can't find one for the life of me, so I have no idea what I would need to put in as a replacement. Anyone know what these are, or how I could find out the ratings and find a modern replacement for them? When it comes to this level of electronics, my knowledge is limited, so any help is appreciated

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 07:57:02 am
content: I would not be so sure it's a diode. Tantalum capacitors look like diode with high forward voltage drop when measured in reverse direction. If they are leaky, voltage drop may appear lower.

author: moothefish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 08:17:30 am
content: I thought that at first, however the silkscreen on the PCB has a diode symbol and they are labelled D401 and D402, plus I couldn't seem to get any capacitance readings out of them.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 08:42:51 am
content: Capacitance reading on diodes is only a matter of resolution, they ought to have a few pFToo young to have ever seen them, but some sort of zeners perhaps? What are the voltages across them, what are they connected to?

author: moothefish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 10:19:09 am
content: At a glance, I'm not entirely sure what its role in the circuit it (this is where my electronics skills are a bit crap). I've attached some photos of the board in question. Seems like they're connected between some of the smaller transistors and the main output transistors, through a resistor or two?Please excuse the truly awful soldering, last time I touched this project was about a year ago and I promise my skills have improved a little since (though I still don't claim to be particularly good at soldering). I've noticed some joints that need touching up like the one that has an obvious hole in it lol. I'm also aware of the lifted traces but they're all making connection as far as I'm aware.

author: moothefish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 10:20:32 am
content: Sorry for the double post, images are too large and I can't easily resize them on mobile. Also a little bit potato quality

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 01:08:32 pm
content: D404 looks like it would be for compensating output bias. Though it's not greased to the heatsink. Not sure what they'd need another one for, inland.Does it measure as a diode? Or a few in series?Tim

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 02:55:14 pm
content: Never seen a diode in that format. Probably a capacitor, although be cool to proven wrong.Any chance you can reverse the schematic of one of the channels, that would be the 'gold standard' way of working out what it is/was.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 02:56:03 pm
content: I've seen varicaps in similar packages, especially that you find it in a receiver. But if it is used in audio section than i am not sure. Do you have a diode tester to measure the forward voltage? This will give you an idea about a replacement type of diode, silicon vs germanium one, etc.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 03:15:21 pm
content: diode stack for cross over distortion . most likely this is a 1n4148 that someone custom globbed so it could be thermally coupled...

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 03:16:11 pm
content: Other transistors on the board looks like Si, so I'll assume the diode is also Si based.Never seen a diode in such a package.Does it measures like a diode?

author: Vovk_Z
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 05:03:01 pm
content: What voltage drop it is? If it is a diode then voltage drop will be as in a diode.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 06:40:51 pm
content: Those are normally a double or triple diode in a common package, so that the voltage drop will compensate 2 or 3 base emitter junctions in the output stage, depending on topology you will have quasi complimentary output or complimentary, meaning you have to compensate for 2 junctions if it is NPN PNP output, or for 3 if it is a Darlington Slizaki stage. Used to offset the voltage drop of the junctions between the output stage. You can measure the forward voltage of the good one at 1mA, 5mA and 10mA, and find it will be around 1V2 to 1V8, and then select an appropriate number of 1N4007 diodes to match it within 50mV at the same current. Don't use a 1N4148, they will not track the power devices over operating temperature range, and the new diode array will need to be thermally coupled to the heatsink, but insulated from it, easiest done with a strip of Kapton tape between them and the heatsink, and another bit of tape over the top.

author: andy3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 07:16:26 pm
content: I have seen these in old audio gear. Mainly, Sony/Sanyo etc. What other members have stated about multiple diodes in series is correct. What is the make/model of the unit? I have some old schematics and might be able to find but just not in a hurry as I am away from home till the end of the month.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 07:28:32 pm
content: This is not the bias spreader.The track which goes to the output transistor goes to its collector and also to the collector of the driver, the two clearly arranged as a Darlington pair, so this track has to be a supply rail.The other end of the diode goes through R405 (left channel) to the collector of one of the input transistors and presumably the base of the gain stage. I will have a look what's going there, it's probably some kind of clamping, protection, anti-saturation or whatnot.editLooking at the markings, these green transistors appear to be PNP (NPN is in the center of the board), so it has to be the negative rail. The diode is mounted in forward direction from the VAS (TR405) input to the rail, in parallel with the VAS and its 2.7Ω emitter resistor R413. What's going on?editMaybe they wanted to make the VAS a "precision" current mirror, with current gain exactly defined by the ratio of R413 to R405, so D401 ought to be a single diode. Too bad that the ratio of those resistors appear to be 1800D403, the similar diode used in the bias generator, doesn't generate the whole bias alone. It's in series with TR407, presumably a VBE mulitplier. Quite possibly a single diode too.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 09:03:14 pm
content: These were a unique Japanese part, as a bias diode string mostly for audio power amplifiers.They were called "Silicon Varistor" or "Silicon Varistor Temperature Compensating Diode" or "Varistor Diode", with the SV part number prefix i.e. SV-3A, SV03YS, SV-04F, Ohimuzi MV11Y etc.They ended up in weird locations in the circuit, wherever the engineer could stuff in temp comp.Long obsolete, people are just making diode arrays from 1N4148's as a sub. I made SMT version with BAV99S and bolt to the heatsink. I recall seeing some that appear to be several series diodes plus thermistor all in one package, so language translation of varistor vs thermistor is my guess what happened. Those measure like a mushy pair of diodes.I don't think they ever worked super great for bias temp. compensation because they weren't always mounted on the heatsink (extra manufacturing labour) and accurate tracking of bias with temperature is extremely difficult to do. A VBE multiplier is what the industry moved to using. Here Sony subs out an SV-04S with a VBE multiplier but no trimpot.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 10:59:05 pm
content: Sometimes they used thermistors, so don't rule out that possibility.

author: moothefish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2020, 11:51:32 pm
content: Well this has certainly been a more interesting thread than I thought it would be! The receiver in question is branded as a Rank-Arena ra-402, which is either a rebrand or bespoke design using NEC boards. I wasn't able to find an NEC receiver that looked the same, I did find one which looked similar but used a different circuit in the amplifier board.So am i correct in thinking that I will need to somehow create a new diode stack to replace each of these? How many diodes need to be in the stack? I'm definitely in over my head at this point...

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2020, 06:20:24 am
content: OP, what is the amplifier not doing, that you suspect D401, D402 in each channel?Zener D405 is common to both channels, looks odd with heatshrink so it might be two diodes in there?I did a rough schematic but don't have much for part numbers and values. If you can check, it would help us figure out the mystery diodes.edit: corrected errors in schematic rev0 -> rev1

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2020, 09:08:04 am
content: Doing a little searching and putting together bits pieces here's a short version of the history. Rank merged with Arena to create Rank Arena in 1971. Arena audio components were manufactured by Hede Nielsen in Denmark until it's merger into Rank-Arena in the UK in 1971.Rank also had holdings in NEC Japan. So that would explain the PCB branded with NEC. So maybe you could cross reference the stereo with a similar one Branded NEC from the same time period. Might be able to find a service manual .Some basic performance specs might help to narrow the search.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2020, 09:09:22 am
content: Seems about right. You forgot R415 which charges C409 but who caresAnd yes, R413 is 270Ω not 2.7Maybe it's time to just put this diode back in and see how many volts it drops?

author: moothefish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2020, 09:33:12 am
content: Wow, you guys are great! Was not expecting anyone to try and actually create a schematic. What values did you need specifically? The issue I was having was that after about 5-10 minutes of running, the audio would start cutting out and this god awful hissing\rumbling noise would come and go in one of the channels and to a lesser extent both channels. After recapping and swapping all the transistors between channels to see if one was leaky, I found out that moving the diode pack on the channel with the issues caused the noise to change dramatically, and i could get it to appear and disappear by moving it. I thought it was the solder joint or the trace but i verified the connection and desoldered it several times with no change.Happy to put the diodes back in and do some more checks. Dumb noob question though, If i put the diodes back to measure voltage drop, what points on the board should I measure between to get the best reading? Just across each leg of the mystery diode?As for the NEC history of Rank Arena, I did already try looking at old NEC gear but couldn't find anything that used the same circuit as this. I'm sure its out there somewhere, just haven't been able to find it in my searchings as of yet.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2020, 09:43:54 am
content: Why would a diode have a package that does not distinguish between anode and cathode?

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2020, 10:28:21 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on January 11, 2020, 09:43:54 amYou missed the white dot?

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2020, 10:42:07 am
content: That's weird, I missed it indeed!

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2020, 11:03:05 am
content: Quote from: moothefish on January 11, 2020, 09:33:12 amDirectly across the diode. But it doesn't matter, copper is resistive so Ohm's law applies: voltage difference between the ends of a PCB track equals resistance (maybe a few mΩ) times current (maybe a few mA in this case).Actually, don't even put it back but start with measuring in both directions using diode mode on the DMM. If it's a single diode you should see something around 600mV in one direction and out of range in the other. Multiple diodes is trickier, some DMMs may be unable to measure it.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2020, 11:12:32 am
content: OK I updated the schematic inpost #18,it more or less makes sense now.The diff amp stage, a bit odd to have a trimpot there I assume it's for offset adjust.The diode looks like a one diode part (one Vf) is all that is needed?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2020, 12:58:47 pm
content: Everybody who read Self knows that this is 2nd harmonic distortion adjustmentBut trimming for zero output offset will probably get you close

author: moothefish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2020, 07:48:17 am
content: Looks like its just a single diode then, one measured 580mv and the other about 620. though when i first measured it it was reading almost 900, but subsequent readings were all about 620. Will put it back in circuit when I get time and see what it measures there