PCB design software with components autoplacers. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 03:07:21 am
content: PCBCAD51 and PCBCAD360 available athttps://www.murtonpikesystems.co.ukIts been around since 1990 and been rewritten 3 times ! 8086 Assembler, Delphi pascal, C# then C++ for speed.I have designed around 300 pcb's with it for my own projects.Also done a few projects for other people.

author: Spirit532
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 07:32:09 pm
content: Kinda pointless to buy something so obscure and unsupported that has less functionality and costs more than KiCAD($0)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2019, 03:27:58 pm
content: Quote from: Spirit532 on July 26, 2019, 07:32:09 pmDiversity doesn't hurt. KiCAD isn't quite perfect either.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2019, 04:16:25 pm
content: yikes. butt ugly schematics and symbols and a layout that is drawn by a 4 year old using finger paint. no. thanks.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2019, 09:26:43 pm
content: I personally don't care about how it looks. For me only productivity matters. However, this website is one of the worst I've ever seen. It doesn't give even a single clue what it feels like to use this software. I also found zero youtube videos showing it in action.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 03:18:57 pm
content: Apear to be simple, fast amd good value, I liked , Kicad is a mess

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 09:23:58 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 27, 2019, 03:27:58 pmWhile KICAD is free and has great libraries it is very poor to use and its updates are bug ridden (admitted by their website)PCBCAD51 has features not seen in much more expensive PCBCAD software.It has gridded and gridless autorouters.The auto component placers are a godsend.The "swap autoplacer" very quickly swaps around components to find best net.This means I can often route pcb's that I could never have done by hand.I have sold around 3,000 copies so its hardly obscure !The software is FULLY supported by email and phone lines.Also, updates are free permanently.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 09:50:24 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 24, 2019, 03:07:21 amQuote from: nigelwright7557 on July 28, 2019, 09:23:58 pmno download button for trial version?no GUI screenshot?no sample no help no nothing, just pay now buttons?this is novel...Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 24, 2019, 03:07:21 amyou mean the latest pcb is this?.. (inhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/10-meg-sample-home-made-scope-project/?topicseen)

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 10:09:31 pm
content: That pcb is just a prototype.I have designed around 300 pcb's with the software.The website gives a good description of the software and it many functions.Its a lot of software for the money.I did a demo version and no one was interested in it, they just wanted to buy it.You can download demo fromhttp://murtonpikesystems.co.uk.servepreview.net/pcbcad51demo.html

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 10:15:07 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 28, 2019, 10:09:31 pmthat is novel... of course no one interested because you dont provide the link in the main page... i wonder what is your main job?

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 10:22:22 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 28, 2019, 10:15:07 pmI did have the demo link on the page but there were no hits on it so I took it down.I have been in electronics hardware and software design for 40 years+.I have sold over 3,000 copies of PCBCAD software so the software cant be too bad !As it is paid for software I can spend time improving the software as time goes on. You wont get that with free software.KICAD make improvements but don't debug them for many months.My software is guaranteed bug free, if I find a bug it is fixed same day.

author: sn4k3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 11:00:40 pm
content: why not eagle? It's free

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 11:09:09 pm
content: from youtube, i still can see one most noticeable bug... it looks a little bit oldish, i hope you can fix that to be more modern than GUI like Altium at least, or Cadence Allegro better, and then differential and length match routing supported? any example?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 11:19:34 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 28, 2019, 11:09:09 pmI'm pretty sure that's a feature. If you want slick GUIs that change every few years according to the latest fads, rent a big bucks EDA.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 11:39:00 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 28, 2019, 11:09:09 pmIt cant be a bug if it is deliberate !I could have added loads of tool bars etc but decided I preferred the screen real estate would be better used for the schematic or pcb.All functions are either on the menu, the toolbar or right click context menu's or short cut key presses.A major failing of a lot of pcbcad packages is fine scale SMD snapping.They allow snap to grid but its usually to part of inches or mm. Trying to do it freehand is very messy.A recent addition I found invaluable when working with SMD was the ability to route/snap a track backwards or forwards to an off grid SMD pin.It turned a messy SMD layout into an excellent layout.

author: Spirit532
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 02:54:19 am
content: I don't see any features in your software that don't work flawlessly(and without bugs) in KiCAD, Eagle(shudder), PADS, Altium, etc. I have been using KiCAD with minimal issues(if any) for the last few years. There are some pet peeves, but your software seems to just have the same quirks, but magnified.The schematic entry looks painfully ugly, and the PCB layout seems to lack any modern features.All of the aforementioned design packages let you freehand off-grid with some tweaks, but freehanding is a wonderful way to violate DRC(does your software even have a full DRC system?) and screw up the board, as I have done a few times.The autorouter is not very useful for anything remotely complex, and simple boards... well, if you're lazy, I suppose.I see no instruction manual, I see no tutorial videos, only a few demos showing... how it looks like(which is abysmal, but I'd be willing to let that go if it had superior features).I also somehow doubt you've sold anywhere close to 3000 copies of this at full price.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 04:37:57 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 29, 2019, 02:58:32 amIt was just a quick and dirty pcb for a prototype.With the onset of $2 Chinese pcb's it doesn't really matter.Proof of concept doesn't need an amazing pcb.Here is my next version but still needs a little tweaking.The SMD tracks are laid out much neater.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 06:08:18 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 28, 2019, 11:19:34 pmunfortunately i already have one.. those 'sarcasm' well, is really meant as costructive comment, if he really want to make some improvement on it.. btw i have not done up to 300 pcbs yet, maybe something like 10-20 pcbs only, i must be really young and newbie in this,..otoh, i must be really careful not to put the OP off, like the earlier germany eda developer who took people c&c negatively and swore by his creation..he has better more polished gui and website and youtube videos how to btw except functionalities.. i forgot the eda name already, but he didnt claim 3000 sales....

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 06:49:36 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 29, 2019, 06:08:18 amIt's important to distinguish between choice and error. Reporting the GUI as a bug when it's obviously a deliberate choice isn't very helpful. Ragging on OP isn't either. Suggesting something like better examples could be helpful, but I get the feeling most people don't intend to be helpful at all. If it's not for you, it may be best to just move along.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 07:37:32 am
content: i believe you mixed up with that hand sketched dso pcb thread..

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 08:03:55 am
content: I look at that screen shot and it's hard on my eyes. The blue or green(not sure) keeps changing colors on me. Parts of your tracks are hidden some don't seem to connect with vias where they should... It's just too ugly to ever bother blindly switching from what I know. I'm not sure if I'm seeing software issues or designer issues. Best of luck but I'll never touch it.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 08:11:01 am
content: 1) redesign your website and put some youtube video of yours unique super functions.... .2) wait some days to see if everything works properly.3) come back here.these are suggestions, do not take them as a personal attack.

author: Spirit532
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 08:29:27 am
content: That layout shot looks like garbage because it was autorouted. Poorly autorouted, to be specific. I spotted a few optimization issues after a few seconds of looking at it, which leads me to the conclusion that the autorouter is just playing "connect the dots" and has absolutely no optimization in place. Hell, even the FreeRoute Java autorouter that's used in KiCAD(unoficially and hasn't been supported for ages due to legal reasons) does a much better job with more complex boards.And given how the manually routed boards look... well...

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 08:51:39 am
content: I'd be happy with software optimized for _manual_ routing.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 10:33:42 am
content: Quote from: Spirit532 on July 29, 2019, 08:29:27 amI'd assume that that is just how the person designed the board so you can't really blame the software for that. I think it would be nice if Dave (or Dave2) could do a quick review on this package.

author: tycz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 11:24:04 am
content: What a coincidence. I found PCBCAD51 on a list of electronics CAD software two about two weeks ago. I hadn't heard of it before, but the website looked active and the price was cheap so I just went ahead and bought it out of curiosity. I could tell right away that this is really old software. I was thinking late 80s or very early 90s. I used another package of similar vintage for several years and the feel is very similar.I've only really played with the schematic entry part so far. It's functional, I suppose, but is lacking in modern convenience like copy/paste, undo, mouse panning which is taken for granted these days. I found a few bugs without trying too hard so I'd say it's no less buggy than any other CAD package.For example,** If you delete a component, the end of each line that was connected to one of its pins is reset to co-ordinate 0,0.** Changing the reference angle has no effect.** The launcher menu program crashes half the time when I close the schematic editor, though I can't figure out how to repeat this consistently. Maybe time related...** When I click on PCB to Gerber Translator and select the included example layout (single.pcb) the program just complains about a missing file and that there were errors found. It would be great if the example was error free.Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be any settings to fiddle with at all. No way to change those damn colours that I can see. As side note, I'm pleased to hear that other posters agree the colours are bad (at least I think that's what 'ugly' means in this context). This isn't unique to this program at all - more than half of the electronics CAD software packages I've tried has absolutely eye destroying default colours. Like Altium Designer which (used to?) come default set to 100% blue, 100% red and 100% yellow for bottom, top, and silk layers - all on a black background. It makes me feel uneasy looking at a layout in these colours for more than a couple of minutes at a time. I initially thought that it was just some kind of joke, maybe even a competition between the coders of different packages to see how garish they could make it without the marketing dept insisting it be changed. But since then I've seen a fair amount screenshots, even from people on this forum, showing some work in progress or another with those extremely ugly colours the software defaults to. I'll just say I'm amazed at what some people can tolerate.Anyway, back on topic. The most annoying problem I can see with PCBCAD51 is screen updates are very slow. It's perfectly fine when you add the first few components on a schematic, but if I open the included example schematic, which has about 80 components, the screen redraw takes about 800ms when zoomed out a bit. Maybe there's a compatibility layer on the graphics that translates the old DOS graphics routines to Windows API. I don't know why it would be so slow otherwise. It's hard to put up with if you are used to panning and zooming around a schematic effortlessly like a modern schematic editor with graphics acceleration can.Quote from: Spirit532 on July 29, 2019, 02:54:19 amWhat reason do you have to doubt this? Full price is 5 GBP. I bought it just to play around with, but 15 years ago I would have bought it to use in earnest, and would have paid more than the current asking price. Cheap CAD software that produced Gerbers was not a common thing back then.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 12:23:13 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 29, 2019, 10:33:42 amalready done 5 years ago...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/pcb-design-software-for-sale/msg452313/#msg452313Quote from: tycz on July 29, 2019, 11:24:04 amso you are among the 3000 who donated. thanks for making the review and letting us know... that one post thankedQuote from: tycz on July 29, 2019, 11:24:04 amso someone may call it featuresQuote from: tycz on July 29, 2019, 11:24:04 amthats why i hinted a major upgrade, to the Win7/10 appearance like, that thing looks like emulated from the past age. so you confirmed it.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 02:28:00 pm
content: -first go wash my eyes .. i just saw that screenshot of the routed board ... -i downloaded and played with it for 30 minutes. it feels at the level of Smartwork ... and orcad for dos ... sdt3861 schematic symbol editor- symbols are horrible- no linewidths- no group selection and move operations. one thing at a time- no keyboard shortcuts. everything is click2 footprint editor- no bulk operations ( select 5 pads and change all of them at the same time )- no group operations ( select a bunch of stuff and move it )- no display of locations , no entry of coordinates or coordinate equations ( like add .0.2mm to x of this object )- pad width and length is from pulldown menus. why not allow entry of numbers ?- why have both pin and pad in pcb editor. what is function of 'pin' ?3 schematic editor ( loaded sample schematic.)- need to go wash eyes again- horrible schematicother things i could not find : zoom / drag using mouse.There is a block move but it is very archaic. you need to invoke a command select the block and then you can only move it by clicking a destination point., the block does not follow the mouse in realtime.middle button is 'center here'.scrollwheel is zoom in / out ( fixed step)drawing a line : no panning when hitting edge of viewport'zoom all' is very sluggish. takes 2 seconds to redraw screen.does this thing support multiple sheets ? hierarchical schematics ?my main issue with this tool is that you alwasy need to invoke a command first before you can do anything.i would expect , in 2019,- i can just double click on an object (symbol , footprint , track ,pad whatever ) to edit it.- select things in group using shift-click of left-mouse-drag operations.- use ctrl-c ctrl-v ctrl-x for cut copy paste- scroll freely around a viewport with autopan and zoom.4 pcb editor- only one global clearance rule- again no direct editing of objects. very frustrating- sample layout is horrible (from a layout perspective)5 3d viewersee screenshot (and filename)even simple text editors like notepad and simple drawing programs like paint can do that ...This really feels like smartwork and orcad under dos.sorry. not for me.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 03:47:06 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 29, 2019, 07:38:49 amTwo different pcb's !The first one was a quick and dirty prototype.The second is much tidier.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 03:48:24 pm
content: Quote from: exe on July 29, 2019, 08:51:39 amThis.While computers may be fast at trying millions of combinations , they have no intelligence. And that is the problem with routers.The human has to intelligently craft a bunch of rules that the machine will then slavishly follow. when it fails to find a solution we go 'autorouters suck'.No. They dont. it is just a connectivity solving algorithm. you as a human did not feed it proper information , or made such a swiss-chees out of your preroutes the damn thing locks up.I have to see the first autortoure that goes : hey stupid, if you shidft this stuff over here , move that bunch of tracks to that layer and change the polygon plane like that i can route this.no. They simply go 'no solution found'. Have you really tried finding one ? or are you just stringing copper from a to b ?That being said: a word of advice for the maker of this tool- ditch the 3d efforts. unless you can import/export 3d models (step, idf) to mechanical domain it is just eye candy.- change the user interface- if i click on an object ( line,pad part,footprint, whatever) i should be able to manipulate it.- hold button-drag = move- shift click add to group selection. or remove if already in group- ctrl-c ctrl-v ctrl-x copy paste cut- double click : edit properties ( on designator : edits text , on track edit width / layer ) , pad/via : size / shape / hole- when in operation and hitting window border : pan.- mouse scrollwheel: zoom- absolute movements : be able to say move this object ( or group of objects ) 1mm to left and 2.14 mm up by typing in the equation or absolute numbers. all you need is + and -- free rotation of parts- in pcb editor : snap to object center ( center of pad , center of via ) when placing final route stub.- allow more than one clearance rule in pcb- allow editing of soldermask. it is sometimes necessary to edit thisThen you will have a good base package that is easy to useoh , and make a library of proper symbols. your resistors are really butt-ugly .

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 03:56:38 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 29, 2019, 03:48:24 pmPretty much every point you have made is nonsense !Are you sure it was my software you tested ?It all smacks of not reading the manual.You need to use "blockmode" to work on groups of components.Press F9, left click on top left hand side of block, left click on bottom right hand side of block.The component wizards are amazing, a few clicks and you have a component.Lines, pads, text etc can all be manipulated with sizes etc.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 04:31:39 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 28, 2019, 11:09:09 pmI wouldn't call the GUI on Orcad Allegro modern. It is straight from the Unix mainframe/ X-terminal era. But once you get the hang of it, it is quite productive.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 05:20:39 pm
content: there comes "the community" i hoped they will come and follow my soft tone but... the truth will always prevails..Quote from: nctnico on July 29, 2019, 04:31:39 pmyeah i could be mistaken. i saw some members posted their pcb rendering with semi transparent colorful layers on black background. i know its not allegro (nor altium) by looking at the website, but i just talk out of my arse hopefully the OP get the idea. otoh, i was talking about the earlier more polished eda, is this...https://www.dexpcb.com/not meaning to hijack, just for learning and lesson or food for thought, even that, its not functionally entertaining either.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 05:23:16 pm
content: Auto-routing is useless, auto component placement is even worse. I mean maybe if you're making PCBs for 1970s-80s childrens toys it's fine, but not for anything modern.I'll stick to KiCAD, it's powerful, reasonably modern, easy enough to use, I have few complaints about it these days and it costs nothing.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 05:54:44 pm
content: yeah but routing buses, match length serpentines, differential and impedance control traces are much more important nowadays which eda newcomers often overlook, imho.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 06:21:17 pm
content: Quote

author: TiN
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 07:07:50 pm
content: Ugh, my eyes... why.... why would electronics engineering person pay for this?Because they don't know there are free PCB EDA tools, no other reason.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 07:56:22 pm
content: I'm searching the back of my memory to recall what that delightful black-on-cyan menu bar reminds me of. Something 1990s for sure, maybe the early Macs or Amigas perhaps?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 09:00:48 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 29, 2019, 02:28:00 pmI'm seriously impressed that you gave this a fair try out after seeing the screenshots.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 12:05:25 am
content: Quote from: maginnovision on July 29, 2019, 08:03:55 amIts a low res bitmap screen dump !Its only a bitmap file so you can texpect much.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 12:08:13 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on July 29, 2019, 09:00:48 pmStill the conclusion is 'this doesn't work like Altium'. Then again: does the world really need another schematics + PCB layout package? There are more PCB packages than flavours of ice cream.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 01:08:31 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2019, 12:08:13 amA few choices:EagleCAD (Commercial)KiCad (OpenSource)Altium (Commercial)OrCad (Commercial)DipTrace (Commercial)gEDA (OpenSource)pcb-rnd (OpenSource, I am personally supporting it on Gentoo/HPPA)

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 01:08:37 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 29, 2019, 03:56:38 pmI handle 5 to 6 board a week. up to 16 layers, some with 5000 pin bga's. tell me again my points are nonsense.Quoteyup. free versionQuotewhat manual ? and who needs a manual ? ctrl-c ctrl-v ctrl-x , clicking and drag are all standard operations in any kind of software , whether notepad, word, autocad ,or a pcb editor.Software MUST be intuitive to use. It is assumed if i click on an object i can do something with it (it should at least select or highlight it) . To select a group of object : hold left mouse button and drag, anything fully enclosed is now selected. There is no need to invoke F9 for 'block mode'.Quotethere's my point. f9 to invoke, click top left , click bottom right. that is counterintuitive to any other windows program. also click top left click top right : i'd like to see a bounding box when i am in mid selection.(pcb does do that, schematic does't...)another point L: now that i have this lump of stuff selected : hoe do i add something to the already selected group or remove something from the selected group ?Quotethat doesn't conform to any standards (IPC). SIL DIL and quad. How about QFP ? SON ? DFN ? QFN ? BGA with thermal pads ? in the wizrd i see no option to specify top layer only pads or set the hole size to zero so i assume SMT is not supported ?Quoteyes they can .but : bulk operations ? select a number of traces and adjust all of them to 10 mils in one shot ?select a trace end to end ? (all segments on all layersselect a trace between two pads ? ( all segments on current layer)zooming is counter intuitive. you need to first click to make the clicked point the center of the screen, then scrollwheel to zoom. zooming should happen around the current cursor location. there is also no free panning. (hold some mouse button down and the viewport follows you )Other trouble i ran into :- selecting traces to edithit F1 , now click on a segment of a track. The cursor jumps to the closest bending point ,irrespective if it is on the track clicked or not.I can't figure out how to add or remove bending points. the help doesn't show.on the attached picture ( from the single.pcb file)please explain how to :1) select the light blue section of track. only that section , the portion going from pin 40 upward is not to be selected. and then change the selected section to 5 mils.2) select the dark blue traces in one operation. decrease their size with 2 mils. ( from whatever they are) Note that the vertical portions of these tracks are different from the horizontal portions. so we are not going to set absolute widths , but relative from what they already are.3) grab the segment in the yellow circle and push it towards bottom left. if it comes within minimum allowed distance from the gray trace it should stop moving. ( or ideally start pushing the grey trace also. but lets first stop at design rule violation)4) modify the right hand vcc trace to add the magenta section.Because i can't figure out how to do these simple tasks.Maybe i am stupid, but i do know how to do these in smartwork, tango, Orcad, Autotrax, Protel , altium , Tanner EDA , Cadence, Pcad, Pads , Hiwire, and a few other pcb layout programs. I can't figure it out in PCBCAD51 ..The above things are basic operations that any pcb cad program needs to be able to do in a fast way ( fast meaning : least amount of operations on keyboard / mouse.)

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 01:46:56 am
content: Quote from: free_electronOIII don't knock Smartwork !! I used it for many years and literally did 100s pcbs on it - plus it was easy to re-engineer and get into the data files.I created graphics files / viewers, assembly overlay programs etc I really only switched back then, when they stopped advancing it, and my new favourite Proteus came out !

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 02:30:13 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2019, 12:08:13 amyes we do, something that works better than Altium yet affordable like DipTrace. maybe an Utopia dream, but until someone with "open source software" or "great" mind take the challenge. no we dont need another that works worse than KiCAD or Eagle.Quote from: free_electron on July 30, 2019, 01:08:37 amthats a feature, along with the other features you mentioned. what do you know? the OP designed 300 pcbs with those features

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 03:26:23 am
content: I have read all your criticisms and I have to say once again that you clearly haven't bothered reading the manual.I have no problem editing anything.If I did I wouldn't be able to design any pcb's never mind the 300+ I have already done and the many thousands my customers have designed.Some people get taken in by massive screens of toolbars etc.I chose not to do that and leave the screen for laying out pcb's etc.Not every one has a 36 inch pc monitor !Some of the other software I have seen barely leaves any room for a schematic or pcb.If you lived a bit closer I would have come round and showed you how to use it because you are clearly clueless !Its simply one "cant use it so will diss it" lie after another.I can only guess you are a competitor and need to drag everyone elses software down to make yours look good.You haven't yet mentioned the extremely low price. This software has functions I haven't even seen on software costing many hundreds of pounds.Anything mine has missing is because I never found a need for it or no one has ever asked for it.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 03:59:14 am
content: Quote from: digsys on July 30, 2019, 01:46:56 ami started with smartwork. made probably 50 boards with it during my school years when all we had was 8088 based pc's.... it worked fine . i still miss its ability to shave pads to run a trace ...i really liked that tool. dip e 28 600. draw a dip package eastward 28 pins 600 mil pitch f1 place pad f2 remove pad f3 place wire f4 remove wire f5 thick wire.but then you find better tools... and you move on.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:41:28 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 30, 2019, 03:26:23 amso where is this manual ?all i can find is the help in the program itself and that is of no help.And no i am not a competitor. If you'd care to google me you'd know better.I have been making PCB's since i was 8 years old. i etched my first board using left over material fro a local TV manufacturer , a sharpie pen and a bottle of FeCl. When i was 15 years (1985) i got a hold of a 8088 pc ( some clone made in Egypt .. forgot the brand ) and a copy of Winteks Smartwork (https://smores.tistory.com/810) and made maybe 50 boards with that during my school years. We also had access to OrCad under dos. Later on i started using easytrax , autottrax and all versions of Protel / Altium. Professionally i have used many PCB tools ( PCAD, Pads, Tango , Vanguard, Cadence, OrCad and a few very esoteric ones running on Sun or Apollo workstations to design hybrid modules ). I don't work for any Cad software company. I'm a user.I have no personal interest in any CAD tool. my interest is purely out of curiosity.i would like there to be a simple to use schematic/pcb tool and so far i have not found anything. I am not interested for my self as i have my own paid licences of the big tools. It's more of a 'community thing'.The whole open source stuff does not appeal. The tools are not usable in an easy way. it is not a coherent package , everything is bolted together from various bits and pieces and in a constant state of flux.My feedback is based on how easy i find it to pick up a new tool. but, my patience is very thin. I expect tools to have a basic 'common' feel with other programs. ( like screen navigation, object selection , copy paste etc. )Those are basic operations that work identical irrespective of what the software does or what platform it runs on.zooming and panning does not work like 'normal' programs. For starters : why don't you have simple scrollbars bottom and right like all programs do ?Most software allows free panning by holding right mouse button and dragging.you have a bunch of shift-clcik , ctrl-click but what i want is hold a button , move mouse and the viewport scrolls realtime where i point. All graphical software works that way. Paint, Photoshop , Autocad, Solidworks , doesn;t matter what.Having a UI that is completely different in basic manipulations is an obstacle for people.Please do explain how i can do something simple like this : note : i looked in the online help and in the 'manual button' in the software itself. i searched for copy and paste. there is not a single word about that.so do explain : how do i select some components , net names and wires , make a copy of that block and paste it in the schematic.The usual menu items i'd expect like copy and paste don't exist. ctrl-c ctrl-v doesn't do anything. Right click doesn't show anything obvious on the menu either. Searching for 'copy' or 'paste' in the help file also yields nothing.So please do tell : how do i copy and paste a section ?And no , 'repeat' is NOT an obvious command, besides it doesn't work as it garbles all the netnames and makes spaghetti out of the pasted block.Second point : look at the picture : how do i make a selection like in the blue polygon. just being able to make rectangular selections is very restrictive.In most software (even if it is not pcb software) you can create subselections using ctrl-click or shift-click. they add or subtract elements to the already selected items.How do i do this basic operation ?or is there another problem ? i am using PCBCAD51 the freeware version.-edit- oh, and can we please an 'undo' ? if you forget to get out of that block mode and click somewhere you destroy half of your work ... (see picture 2). i searched the help for 'undo'. nothing found. it's 2019 ... undo is so 1970's ...Even the Calma GDS layout system running on a Nova computer had a 16 level deep undi/redo stack in 1975

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 05:53:11 am
content: Copy and paste is done by selecting the area you want to copy and paste. I think its right at the end of the help manual.You have to set up blockmode otherwise I don't know what area wants copying.Press F9 then left click on top left hand side of block.Move mouse button to bottom right hand side (you will see a moving rectangle as you move the mouse)Left click mouse button on bottom right hand side and rectangle will become set around the area.Now right click mouse button and a context menu will appear with lots of options like print, repeat, rotate, etc.The manual is found by clicking on "help" on top menu bar.I had completely forgotten about the schematic moving all disconnected lines to a deleted component to bottom left hand side corner.I always delete the tracks first before deleting the component.However, I can see how some people would be put off by this.So I spent 10 minutes tonight fixing it.Not only that but the software now allows laying new components over lines and it automatically connects to them.It only needs to do this for component repeat, new component and block repeat.The pcb has the same problem but that is overridden by "forward annotate" which will align connectivity with the schematic which is how the software "should" be used.

author: Spirit532
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 06:20:06 am
content: Skipping undo, a basic feature back in the early seventies, makes your software worth less than $0. You'd have to paymeto eventhinkof using it.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 06:41:39 am
content: Quote from: Spirit532 on July 30, 2019, 06:20:06 amUndo requires a massive amount of memory or hard disc space and slows down the software and thrashes the pc.Its completely unnecesary as all you have to do is reload in the file if you mess up.So long as you regularly save progress it works fine.If your making a lot of mistakes then maybe your in the wrong job ?

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 07:03:03 am
content: nigelwright7557what is good, nice and cool for you and your customers could be bad for the rest.I admire you started to code your own EDA SW, and you did what was best for you.To summarize your "taste" is very special, if you want to sell more you should consider to implement feature that the majority of others EDA have.It's remarkable the EEVBlog reaction: still a lot ofconstructivecriticism/comments if you shave off some irritation.Best wishes for the future!

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 07:14:00 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 30, 2019, 06:41:39 amok ok your excuses is granted

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 07:46:30 am
content: Nothing against the initial OP, yes, he develop a software that in his own way is better that all the others because it fits his needs and quirks.But as someone who wants to sell something, as stated, you have to cater to every kind of user, from the experience to the newbie. Even if your own way is easy that doesn't mean your way is the only one right.Just look at Windows 8 vs Windows 8.1: Start Menu. Microsoft removed, everyone complained and even installed programs that would install a Windows start menu as Windows 7.Was the right way in the mind of Microsoft? Yes, but the users didn't want to change what they are already used to to something not that intuitive. So that they released Windows 8.1 with the Start Menu.Sometimes changing things just to change and be different is not the right way. The same applies with all the issues from the users from this forum and their constructive opinion. No one is wanting you to not have success in your endeavour, no in reality everyone wants your program to get better and probably support you if that happens.But your defensive position and like someone is attacking your work and put you down is not helping. Probably turn down a notch, be humble, understand the position you are, as a seller and developer and listen to the comments. Why reinvent the wheel if it works the way it works?

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 07:55:18 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 30, 2019, 03:26:23 amYou can record a video.Concerning UI, the reason I use DipTrace (and I paid for it) instead of kicad or any other free tool is usability. In virtually no time I was able to get the result I wanted. Of course there were topics that I wasn't able to discover myself, so I did have to Google it and to read the manual. But I had a smooth start because it works mostly as expected. Not that "wire vs net" garbage in some software where wires don't do anythingSo, there are standard UI patterns for many common actions, and they make adopting new software much easier. I'd say it's not worth avoid them nowadays, because you'll have this conversation with every potential customer. For hardcore user just let them redefine shortcuts, etc.PS I hope it's genuine thread, not trolling from OP. It also would be great to clearly indicate affiliation. It's a bad promotion when people pretend they are "happy independent users", while in fact they try to sell it.PPS I'm also not sure what's the deal with this software. It's super cheap. Are you doing it for fun? I'd suggest opening sources and create a community, but not sure if this is going to work. It will be hard to compete with kicad...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 09:38:22 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 30, 2019, 04:41:28 amThis is precisely where you go wrong. Among CAD packages with various backgrounds and legacies things just work different. And that doesn't mean they are bad or non-productive; it is what it is and the designers choose to implement things the way they deemed best.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 09:40:48 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 30, 2019, 06:41:39 amSorry but this is complete and utter BS! People make mistakes and having an undo / redo is essential to make a tool productive.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 10:30:03 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2019, 09:38:22 amI don't think an opinion can be "wrong".Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2019, 09:38:22 amFrom what I read there were no UX employed. It's just an opinion of the main developer. Who is, apparently, very opinionated. The problem with opinionated UIs is that either you like it, or hate it. Most often it's the latter. Hello eagle, hello kicad.I'd say there is enough opinionated and incomplete EDA on the market. I want a simple one, the one straight-forward to use based on best practices and common sense, with undo, pan&zoom with mouse, and wires remaining connected when I move components. Am I asking too much already?Same for spice simulators. Of course, people who've been using these tools for decades will deny any usability problems, because it's all hard-wired in their brains.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 10:40:17 am
content: Quote from: exe on July 30, 2019, 10:30:03 amTina Design (mine is v8)! It costs 500 euro for the professional license, but for me it's an awesome tool!There is an example package (60 euro) which contains a lot of training materials.

author: Daixiwen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 10:48:41 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 30, 2019, 06:41:39 amSure, if you completely brute force it and store a copy of the complete design each time an operation is done. But if you code it properly and only store a diff of the state before and after each operation, the undo functionality won't use that much resources.Everyone does mistakes now and then, and I don't save my design every 5 seconds. Having to revert to the last save of the file is really a non starter for me too.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 11:01:35 am
content: Quote from: legacy on July 30, 2019, 10:40:17 amI agree, I used to use TINA-TI, afaik based on v8 too, was... okayish, definetely easier to use than LTSpice. V10, afaik, had quite a lot of bugs (not sure how many of them due to the fact that I ran it on Linux), then they had v11. I bought their cloud access, but it was horribly slow and buggy (tried in multiple browsers). UI had horrible flaws, like to simulate circuit one had to draw it in editor, save it, then open in the viewer, and it was taking tens of second (and what if I don't want to save it?). Compare to instance simulation in their desktop software. Once or twice it was down. So, I used it only a couple of times, I'm glad it was cheap.I wanted to buy v11 standalone version, but somehow pricing for the modules was always a bit higher than I was willing to pay.PS Can't check their prices now, the site is hooribly slow, this page is taking forever to load:http://www.designsoftware.com/orders/order.php

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 11:23:32 am
content: Quote from: zucca on July 30, 2019, 07:03:03 amUnfortunately there seems to be a lot of irritation. People seem to get upset when things don't adhere to their expectations.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 11:58:17 am
content: QuoteThis is true for both parties in this discussion.If you watch the website and the software it is obvious nigelwright7557 made this software the way he likes it. And a quick search brings to light he is developing the software since years and never "modernized" the UI. It is not hard to understand this is on purpose.He just advertised the software and never asked for advice. He likes it the way it is and he offers his software for a very small price of 5 GPB. You can buy it or leave it. Don't pester him with unsolicited advice. He is just a guy who loves his software and want do share it. And he is proud of his software. Give him a break!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 12:24:46 pm
content: Quote from: hammy on July 30, 2019, 11:58:17 amIf you weren't allowed to be a slight oddball with strong convictions this forum wouldn't be well frequented at all.Discussion is fine, but some seem to inject a rather unnecessary undertone of annoyance. There's no need to be terse, we can all disagree in peace.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 01:51:13 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 30, 2019, 05:53:11 amPlease do search the help manual for the words 'copy' or 'paste' .The only place 'copy' is found:-Copy layer to all tracks – copies layer of current track to all tracks.-Copy current pad to all pads – copies layer of current pad to all pads.-This module creates a parts list file and outputs the file to the base directory i.e. c:\PCBCAD51\mypcb.pls you can copy this file into word-pad or word and print it out.-This module renumbers the symbols in the schematic and PCB in order across and down the schematic and PCB. You can renumber the schematic and copy to the PCB, renumber the PCB and copy to the schematic, renumber a schematic before a PCB exists or renumber a PCB before the schematic exists.The only place 'Paste' is found:'nowhere'Now do you understand the problem and my frustration ? The manual does not talk about copy and paste.Quotei figured that out.But blockmode is rectangular only.How do i make polygonal selections , or remove 1 element in the middle of a block ? or select 5 random parts somewhere ? or just parts only , no wires ?QuoteThat would be counterproductive. Example: (See attached image)i make a schematic where i have a chip driving 16 outputs. The inputs for this device are SDA SCL and 2 address pins. I want to repeat his block 3 times.i would draw it once , select everything EXCEPT the wires and labels going to the three address pins. copy paste paste paste . now only wire the address pins so they are unique.Selected net labels need to travel with the copies and be unmodified ! in your case the repeat function destroys them as they become random assigned net names.To make this non rectangular selection:draw a rectangle that encloses all parts ( uncluding the two ground objects.)Now shift-left mouse button click on the two elements i do not want. This removes them from the selected group. If i want to add something to the group : shift-click again. The shift-left mouse acts like a toggle switch : add or remove from group. It controls a boolean flag on all elements that says ' you are in a group selection'. when a copy paste operation is done : all elements that have the flag set are duplicated.non rectangular selections are very important. Every software can do that. Excel allows you to select random cells , Word allows you to select random elements , Powerpoint can do it. All schematic/PCB software i know can do it.QuoteGood ! thanks for that. Keep in mind that, while i may sound grumpy, my feedback is honest and trying to give you idea's for improvement.Quotethat is not right.undo does not take disk space or memory. That Nova computer had all of 32K core memory and a whopping 50 Megabyte disk pack. It drove 2 screens ( one graphical , one text) , a digitzer , a drawing board and a keypad. Intel did the layout of the 8008 microprocessor on that machine. It had undo ...All you need to store is what got removed / added in a stack.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 01:57:28 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2019, 09:38:22 amBasic operations like copy paste , selecting/deselecting, work the same irrespective of programs. CTRL-C Ctrl-V Ctrl-X are universal in the windows world. same thing with shift-drag , shift-click. Works even on a mac ( ok there it is command c command v ) but all programs use that combination.that is what i am getting at. It does no good to make these basic things totally different. That is just a huge learning curve. ( in the sense i need to put effort to find what it is and remember it for this one program. If all software starts implementing their own copy paste shortcuts life woudl be hell... )

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 02:51:46 pm
content: Does it run under TempleOS?

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:03:08 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 30, 2019, 01:57:28 pmBut you have to select an area first. How do I know which items are selected otherwise ?Simply pressing control c and v would copy the lot as its not selective enough.PCBCAD software can be complex and there is not a lot you can do to fix that.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:04:06 pm
content: Quote from: Warhawk on July 30, 2019, 02:51:46 pmRuns under Windows only.I am told it works under Wine.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:08:39 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 30, 2019, 01:51:13 pmSo where do you save the changes ?The only way to save i.e. tracks would be to save the previous tracks array to a file or to memory.On a large pcb you could be talking mega bytes of memory.And that's just for tracks, what about text, components etc ?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:09:42 pm
content: If Undo requires massive amounts of memory or slows things down then something is seriously wrong with the architecture. I cannot think of a single piece of productivity software that I have ever used in my life that lacks at least a basic one level undo/redo function. Every EDA that I've used has multi-level undo/redo, it's an absolutely essential feature that has been standard for decades.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:11:05 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 30, 2019, 04:08:39 pmUndo should only be saving a diff. If you're copying your full dataset for every mutation you're asking for trouble.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:16:07 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 30, 2019, 04:11:05 pmWhat if say someone removed 90% of the tracks that were 10 megabytes ?Then they press undo, those 9 megabytes need to come from somewhere.A simple single or double level undo wouldn't be too bad to do but an infinite one would seriously affect performance.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:16:40 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 30, 2019, 04:03:08 pmof course there needs to be something in the selection buffer.The issue is : manipulating that buffer.In pcbcad51 that buffer is a simple rectangle. anything that touches it is included.My claim is : that is not sufficient for modern software. i want a mechanism to allows me to add / remove items from the buffer at random. Any program can do that these days.typically it is done by using shift-click.so i case of pcbcad :f9 , click top left , click bottom right. that performs block selection.it woudl expect there to be ( either on the right-click menu) a function 'add to selection'. if i activate that function i can now click on awire , symbol or any other object on screen , and that gets added to the already selected block.sem thing for removing. a function 'remove from selection'.better yet : no functions that needs 'activation'Selecting items : position mouse at first corner. hold left mouse button down , move to next corner , let go of mouse button. anything in that are from corner1 to corner 2 now becomes selected. no need to invoke 'block mode'. the operation mouse-down, move,mouse-up becomes block mode.adding / removing an item : hold shift key , click on object. if object is not selected : add it to selection. if object is in selection : remove it from selection.This is how many programs work when it comes to selecting items. even the windows file explorer works that way. excel does too . this is a common way of selecting things.It does no good for commonly used tasks to have a completely different way , and then have to do many more operations to get where you want to be.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:28:35 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 30, 2019, 04:16:07 pmAnd how is that a problem? It will always be quicker compared to redrawing 90% of the tracks. Besides that technology has caught up; memory and storage space are cheap.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:40:49 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 30, 2019, 04:16:07 pm10 megabytes ? for tracks ?let's look at this.A segment is defined by a start pointpair and an end pointpair, a width, a layer and a netname. and a couple of flags ( like in selection )Assuming 32 bit numbers (4 bytes per number ) (wasting storage like crazy cause you don't need allocation for billions of widths and netnames)segment database example:[startx : 4 bytes][ starty : 4 bytes][stopx : 4 bytes][stopy : 4 bytes][width index : 4 byte][layer index : 4 byte][flags : 4 byte][netname index : 4 byte] = 32 bytes32 kilobyte gives you 1000 segments.10 megabyte could hold 327680 segments ... i doubt you'll ever design board with that many segments.My largest one was 76000 tracks. and that was a 16 layer monster using blind and buried.a pad or via could be 16 bytes (x and y each 4 bytes, 2 bytes to index the shape , 2 bytes in flags, 4 bytes to index netA component would be similarx and y location , a pointer to the symbol table , 2 bits for rotation , 2 bits for mirroring , a selection bit.I'm starting to think your internal data structures are problematic.PCB cad programs are largely a relational database. They use a database like system with tables. There is a table that holds tracks , one that holds via's, one that holds track widths, one that holds pad shapes , and so on.Every entity on screen exists in one table. Finding things is running sort operations on fields in the tables and following links.if your design has 1 million vias you do not need to allocate memory for 1 million different sizes. You only a 1 million entry table for the coordinates and a pointer to the via definition.the via definition is a separate table that holds diameter and hole size ( and possibly start and stop layer if your software supports blind and buried or backdrilling , or another link to an advanced definition if you will do things like copper removal on unused layers, or have different annular rings per layer )You could have a million via's but if they are all the same size that via table is only 1 record. not 1 million records. you don't need to store all that information per via.The cad tools also store a link to the next connecting segment. As in: the start coordinate for this one coincides with the end coordinate of that one , and the end coordinate of this one coincides with the begin coordinate of yet another one. That way it is easy to parse the connectivity. You not have to analyse the entire table for interference checking, you just follow a linked list.track 3904 : comesfrom -nothing- , beginx, beginy, endx,endy, goesto track 3905, width 45 , netname 703 , layer 27 , flags nonetrack 3905 : comesfrom 3904 , beginx , beginy, endx,endy, goesto track 3906, width 9 , netname 703 , layer 27 , flags inselectiontrack 3905 : comesfrom 3905 , beginx , beginy, endx,endy, goesto -nothing-, width 45 , netname 703 , layer 27 , flags nonethe above would be a track made up from 3 segments, middle segment having a different width and being selected.having the index pointers to the continuation segments available makes it easy to manipulate bendpoints. if i move a point i need to update the endpoint coordinate of the previous or next track and the begin point of the current segment. instant rubberbanding without running interference checking.checking for missing connectivity (ratsnest display) is simply checking that everything connects to something. when a link in the database is missing : that's a broken connection.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:44:14 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 30, 2019, 04:16:07 pmDude, did you look at the calendar recently? Is is 2019, 1980s ended 30 years ago. Computers (especially the ones used for CAD of any sort) have tens of gigabytes of RAM these days.The last time that I have heard this kind of argument being used as a reason why there is no undo was with Blender (the 3D modelling software) in the late 90s. But that program ran under DOS and fit on a single floppy! (it is a wee bit bigger and used to make Hollywood movies since then - and yes, it does have proper undo for maybe 2 decades now!).Also, how much data do you really need to store per track? X,Y coordinates of start and end of each segment + thickness, let's say 5 floats per segment. That's20 bytesper segment, so let's say an average has 20-30 segments, we are talking some 600 bytes/track. Your 10MB would mean you have deleted some 17 000 tracks! I doubt you are designing PC motherboards with your software.(fudging the numbers a bit because each track likely has some metadata, such as net name and class associated with it but that doesn't need to be stored with each segment. Also counted MB as 10E6 bytes for simplicity).The other thing is that if someone is doing a mass operation such as a block delete of 90% of the tracks for whatever reason, the operation can be stored in the undo stack differently (e.g. as a checkpoint that gets restored as a whole instead of storing deletions of the individual tracks), saving memory and time.You would do much better if you stopped defending the major usability problems with your program with such ridiculous arguments and actually took in the feedback from people like Free_electron who definitely know what they are talking about. If you had to pay him as a consultant to help you improve your product, you would most likely go broke.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 05:19:29 pm
content: undo data can also be stored in HDD, Terrabytes of storage. Altium will store history data at some interval of time, sometime 10-30 files per editing session. they are full documents, not some chunk of partial undo data. undo data that are stored in memory that can be recalled by Ctrl-Z during editing is another story. i gathered sometime i have hundreds of this history files stored permanently even if Altium closed and reopened several times, by OP's theory the storage will depleted quickly in no time but in fact those files are only KB size and i still have plenty of space to store 1080P videos if i dont clear them up. mind you they are not 2 resistors or sparsed density circuit. if each undo data size is in order of 10MB and have problem to be stored in current PC system, RAM or HDD, then i think the programmer is doing it wrong or maybe its not the right job for him, clearly the programmer here is out of touch.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 08:15:11 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 30, 2019, 04:40:49 pmIt might be defined that way in a simple program but a full PCBCAD package has about 20 bytes of data plus the netname which can be min of 32 bytes.There are a few reasons why I wont be adding undo:1/ It slows down the cad package.2/ It can easily be got around by saving work regularly and reloading file if many mistakes have been made.3/ If a track segment was deleted it takes just one mouse click to add it again, same as Control z so Control z is pointless in many cases.4/ I have done hundreds of pcb's and it has never been a problem.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 09:06:48 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 30, 2019, 08:15:11 pm1) BS (or you have an extremely poorly written inefficient code). Interesting that every single CAD has undo and it doesn't slow them. Even extremely heavy duty mechanical CADs have undo and there you are really saving tens of megabytes of data for some operations. I wonder how can they do it?2) Yeah right. So reloading a file from scratch is faster than the supposedly slow undo? And I have to manage all this myself including naming files, by hand, potentially losing work if I forget to save or rename the file? Sounds like software I certainly don't want to use.3) Undo isn't only for deleting track segments. Try to delete an entire net by accident. Or accidentally moving a component that must be precisely placed because it mates with a mechanical feature (connector, cutout, etc.). Instead of hitting CTRL+Z I can spend next hour fixing the board. Oh but I can reload the file, losing only 30 minutes of work since the last save. Winner!4) Your experience is obviously more relevant than the needs of your (potential) users (and people who have done many thousands of boards). Especially given the boards you have shown here.BTW, not sure whether anyone has commented on this yet but this layout looks really interesting (picture from the OP's website):I wonder how are you managing to weave the tracks from different layers together like that - with no vias? Or is the software drawing both layers but doesn't maintain the z-order correctly so the red track sometimes appears below the green one and sometimes above? Either way, this looks pretty odd.And I love this on your website:QuoteWell, FYI, some of those amateur free programs run circles around what you are selling here.Just

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 09:23:19 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 30, 2019, 08:15:11 pmAre you developing this for yourself or as a tool for others to use?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 11:34:14 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 30, 2019, 08:15:11 pm20 Bytes ? So 10 10 Megabytes yields 500.000 Tracks. You don't even come close to designing such a board. And there is no need to store the netname per track , only a 2 or 4 byte index to a table holding the names.Your internal architecture is not right.To give you an idea i looked at the data of a board i worked on.Board is 37.4 cm by 52.2 cm ( 1/3 by 1/2 meter)3600 arcs1574 fills11741 pads6552 strings109450 track segments5402 vias1175 polygons6555 pad/via holes99 slotted holes3518 components, every single one of em including a full 3d model in STEP format1522 nets8 layers of copperit is .. 67 megabyte uncompressed on disk.Sorry bub , if you need 10 megabyte of storage for an undo operation on a 10x10 board with 20 components and 100 traces... something is seriously wrongAnyway, i'm at the end of my advice. I have real work to do as opposed to help people make their stuff better.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 11:44:20 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 30, 2019, 11:34:14 pmBut the net name is only stored once per line in schematic entry at the start of its data.Using arrays to find the net name from an index is unnecasary extra code.Sorry to hear you ran out of "imaginary" problems.When you stand back and consider the software is only £4-99 its a pretty amazing piece of software for the money.Being beligerant and comparing it software costing hundreds or thousands is just being pedantic.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 11:51:49 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 30, 2019, 11:44:20 pmfree_electron is the one guy who genuinely tried your software and is trying to supply meaningful comments. I'll ask again, are you developing this strictly as a personal tool or are you trying to make something that's useful to more people?

author: Spirit532
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 03:57:22 am
content: If this was the cheapest software available(and it was 2002), it'd be amazing value for money.KiCAD, however, crushes this in every single way. There's literally no reason to buy this. The free software is better than this paid version.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 09:26:28 am
content: Quote from: Spirit532 on July 31, 2019, 03:57:22 amI think so too unless the software from the OP has an excellent solution for the logistics part of circuit board design (the last time I check that is still lacking from Kicad).

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 09:32:54 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 30, 2019, 11:44:20 pmI think this tells us everything we need to know about the way your program is written. Seriously, no thanksQuote from: nigelwright7557 on July 30, 2019, 11:44:20 pmHe is comparing it to any recent (like last 20 years recent) software. Even a free (as in freedom and beer, i.e. $0 cost!) KiCAD can handle most of these things with no problems. Eagle detto. Your claim that only software like Altium costing thousands per seat can handle something as basic like undo is completely ridiculous.You are seriously good at demolishing those strawmen by taking stuff out of context and constantly ignoring the parts of the argument that don't suit you.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 09:49:54 am
content: The thread should probably be closed. There is nothing more to be said. The OP is seriously in denial of reality and doesn't take advice. Nothing useful can come out of this.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 07:23:03 pm
content: The whole debate regarding undo is irrelevant anyway since every single other EDA I'm aware of for at least the last 20+ years has had it and manages to implement it without being slow or causing other problems. Since every other product has it, if it cannot be added to this product then this product is clearly defective by design.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 08:42:03 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on July 31, 2019, 09:49:54 amMost of the comments I have received have been made by someone who has used the software for 10 minutes and obviously hasn't spent time reading the manual on how to do things. What they say is missing mostly isn't. I have written and used the software for 28 years so know it intimately.Its just very sad people take the word of an amateur over the word of the software designer.As for undo, I don't make enough mistakes to need it and if I did make that many mistakes I would seriously consider letting an expert do my pcb's instead.FFS the software is £4-99, it compares favourably with EasyPC which is 100 times the price !If someone wants some cheap PCBCAD software with loads of features then this is the software to buy.3,000+ of my customers cant be wrong.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 08:44:04 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 31, 2019, 07:23:03 pmI have never said it couldn't be added. My time is better spent adding more important functionality.If you really make that many mistakes then you are in the wrong job !In fact it does have undo, its called the reload button, that loads i nthe last saved version. Simples !

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 09:03:22 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 31, 2019, 08:42:03 pmI think you should have researched free_electron before putting your foot in your mouth. Although he is indeed quick to comment and is a bit Altium-centric he also has decades of experience in designing circuit boards professionally. If there is one person who is absolutely not an amateur when it comes to PCB design it is free_electron. He could be a real treasure trove of information for someone like you. Just pick the gems. Most people won't care about which key combination they need to use to copy something but things like ease of drawing schematics, routing a board and -indeed- having an undo function are important.I think your statement about not needing an undo is just silly. If you pick the wrong component or a different track segment there is nothing easier and more productive than hitting 'undo' instead of putting whatever you picked back. Let alone having to reload the file. I'm using undo regulary in Allegro for various reasons (for example if the push & shove router made a real mess).

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 09:12:21 pm
content: Maybe your 3000 customers don't say anything because they gave up on using it. Not to mention feedback is EXTREMELY valuable but you just ignore it and say your way is the right way. With that attitude you absolutely will not grow sales especially with free products like KiCAD( which I don't use). You made a FS thread and then tell everyone you're perfectly happy with all the decisions you've made for your software. That's great, but it's not a reason for someone else to buy it. What sort of files can I import to use with your software? Can I export for use with other CAD packages? Can I customize the UI to my liking? Can I build custom commands? I'm not sure what worthwhile features you're saying your software has that nobody else does but maybe what you have is nowhere close to what you don't.It's really great you never make mistakes but some of us do. Some of us do something then like to backtrack and try something else. Maybe not an issue for your boards but you get relatively complicated boards and that's a problem. Undo is there partly so we don't NEED to save and load like we're save scumming our way through a difficult game. I really do wish you luck and I'm happy you've managed the sales you have but here we are spoiled for choice and even if price were the number 1 issue there are cheaper options still.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 12:45:56 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 31, 2019, 09:03:22 pmI am sure thats true but he is not the expert on my software. He spent 10 minutes on it and I have spent 28 years !If he had come up with genuine criticisms I would have listened carefully and maybe even implemented some of his ideas. In fact I did implement dropping components onto tracks and thanks for that, at least that one was honest.But he didn't do that, most of his list was things that the software actually does do so understand when he peed me off.I do feel people have been unfair hyper critical, just for amusement tonight I visited EasyPC forum and read the hundreds of forum entries of problems it has and that is hunreds of pounds, not £4-99.My software has no bug list. "Would be nice if" doesn't count but I do and have listened to customers, thats where a lot of the ideas implemented came from.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 12:55:31 am
content: Quote from: maginnovision on July 31, 2019, 09:12:21 pmYou really are scraping the barrel for criticisms.The software doesn't need to allow changes to UI as its right to start with. That's just window dressing anyway.What it does do on the bottom status line is tell you what to do next which many other packages don't to.Matey asked about F9 block mode. If you press F9 the status bar tells you what to do next ! simplesMy ebay feedback is about 99% and that is on about 700 transactions there. The rest were sold on my website and Amazon.Of course you sometimes get someone come along who cant work Windows never mind CAD software and they complain its too hard.I could buy a helicopter but it doesn't make me a pilot !PCBCAD software is complex even before you consider the software. Try laying out a PC motherboard and you will understand.I found it hilarious your mate being a Ultiboard user, thats £2200 ! mine is £4-99

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 01:27:59 am
content: Why dont you just say you are lazy arse to do that? Well, thats the hard bitter way. Softer way of saying is... accept the fact and tell you are going to do if you have the time and its a difficult daunting task to do that costs money and time.. i know i tried undo feature in chromeera, its half the software job. Esp code to backtrack data structure correctly to avoid storing array of full scale data in memory and to avoid corrupted undone data.. admittance to incapability is not wrong imho..

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 01:56:16 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on August 01, 2019, 01:27:59 amIts pretty simple to just save a copy of the data structures each time a key is pressed or a mouse is click. Software is savepcb(); That doesn't look like rocket science tome ?Then if Control z is pressed restore it.Its not a case of cant do it but wont do it because I don't feel it is necessary.All I do is, do a bit of work maybe 5 or 10 minutes and get to a point where it is ok and save it.Then if I make a "big" mistake I restore it by loading file back in.But hang on isn't that what Control z does ? except Control z does it unnecassarily repeatedly. I feel sorry for the poor old hard drive as it is thrashed.If I decided to do something complex which I find hasn't worked, I just reload file back in, simples.I find most mistakes are pretty simple like accidentally deleting the wrong track segment, in which case a left mouse click adds a new track.That's one click instead of two for control + zI am open to ideas but at the end of the day its my decision if something is included or not.If people don't like it they can buy elsewhere.The book stops with me.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 02:05:03 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 01:56:16 amThen I don't see the meaning of this thread being open anymore. You advertise your software and let it be analysed by potential buyers, that potential buyers gives you advice of improving the software and your state of mind is mainly what I've quoted above. Then tell me why you started this thread in the first place.I don't see need of this thread anymore to be sincere.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 02:09:17 am
content: Well that's great and I hold no ill will toward you or your satisfied customers, however I don't think you're going to pick up many customers here, especially when most of us already have tools that work for us. Some cost a bundle, others are free, I don't personally see much point in something less capable that is in the "almost but not quite free" category but whatever, if it works for some people that's great. Not much point in continuing to debate here though, if anything this thread is likely to turn off potential customers. Many of whom might buy it on a whim to try it out, stop using it when they realize it has little to offer and then leave positive feedback because they got what they paid for and it was only the price of a latte so hardly worth quibbling over.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 02:14:41 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 30, 2019, 03:59:14 amMy first venture into PCBCAD software was with EasyPC in 1990.It was ok but was terribly buggy.So I wrote my own based on EasyPC.I sell it as a hobby for £4-99, EasyPC charge about £400 !

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 02:18:46 am
content: It's not 1990 anymore, it's 2019, almost 30 years later. Today there are multiple fully featured EDA tools that are completely free. Depressing as it is, time marches on, technology changes, expectations change. Software that would have been great 30 years ago is as quaint today as a horsedrawn carriage.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 02:21:10 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 01, 2019, 02:09:17 amThe number of free PCBCAD and low cost packages has grown massively since I first started in 1990.I sold mine through Maplin for a few years.Later I sold loads on ebay and my website up until 2017. In fact I was pretty much the only one selling on ebay.I was selling for £20 a go and sold hundreds.Then in 2017 suddenly about 100 new adverts for PCBCAD software hit ebay and my sales dropped through the floor.So I reduced price to below all of them but still sold less.Selling the software now is just a hobby and one sale I get is one sale the others don't get. A bit spiteful but all s fair in business and war.There are much easier ways of making money than ebay and I make my money on other ventures now.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 02:26:58 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 01, 2019, 02:18:46 amDOS on Windows 10 ? That made me chuckle.Its not the same DOS software I wrote in 1990 !It has moved on and been rewritten completely three times.2000 Delphi pascal.2008 C# .net framework2012 C++ for greater speed.I agree the screens do look a bit old Windows style but that's because I refuse to bung up the screens with masses of toolbars.I prefer the screen area to be used for schematic and pcb's.The functionality is accessed through main menu, one text toolbar (icon free zone) , quick keys and right click context menu's.It has been an ongoing project with input from users and as I have gotten further into SMD lots of SMD friendly functions have been added.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 02:33:09 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 12:55:31 amThat's a poor excuse when you are trying to sell a product when another better free product exists.QuoteJust as hilarious that you can get Kickad for nothing at all. Infinity times cheaper than yours. And it has "Undo".

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 02:36:40 am
content: Quote from: wraper on August 01, 2019, 02:33:09 amI downloaded KICAD and it has excellent libraries.However, I found it very user unfriendly and had loads of functions I have missing. I gave up with it pretty quickly.I then visited their website and they talked about software updates being sent out but not being debugged. That's simply a horror story.Imagine editing a pcb then the software crashes out !My software is fully debugged before being sent out. But that's the difference between free and paid for software.You pay your money and take your choice.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 02:41:47 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 02:36:40 amKnowing there is no "undo" function makes me give up on it even without trying. That's a functionality which basically every single piece of software has nowadays. Unless it's a game or some other entertainment sort of stuff.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 02:45:54 am
content: Quote from: wraper on August 01, 2019, 02:41:47 amIts something I never use, but I am not ham fisted with the keyboard !My software, I decide what goes in.The likes of KICAD free software kills off innovation.Where's the profit in writing free software ? It simply makes the market less for "real" software companies who provide top quality software.Also where's the drive to improve free software ? the software bloke isn't getting paid so why should he bother trying ?I paid off my house and bough a new car with my profits.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 02:47:09 am
content: Even games have undo, called rewind function. I remember some racing games as GRID and Forza Motorsports 3 to name a few.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 02:49:44 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on August 01, 2019, 02:47:09 amI would hardly call CAD software a game, unless its KICAD !

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 02:50:01 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 02:45:54 amThen I guess it's made for non humans. Are you an alien?

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 02:53:27 am
content: Quote from: wraper on August 01, 2019, 02:50:01 amI think in 28 years of writing the software I have been asked twice for an undo button.I prefer to concentrate on more important things like good auto-placers and auto-routers.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 02:56:13 am
content: Keep up the insults please I have sold about a dozen copies this week via the website.Looks like some people have taste and know a good PCBCAD package when they see one and ignore all the bull on here !

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 03:03:37 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 02:45:54 amI see, you got the advanced course in marketing "how to take potential customer serious"Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 02:45:54 amohh cry me a river, ..

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 03:05:56 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on August 01, 2019, 03:03:37 amYour just dribbling now...……..

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 03:41:26 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 02:56:13 amcongratulation. your stategy to put advert/manual/screenshots example away seems to work... 3000+ customers and zero feedback. you admitted yourself to put those material will bring sale to floor level. yes EUR15 is expendable no doubt.Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 02:53:27 ama demo will prove the worthiness of the effort. but then, there's no need for comments you do what you like. cheers.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 03:46:05 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on August 01, 2019, 03:41:26 amThere is a link to demo software on the website.There is a link to a demo video too.In regards to KICAD.What do you call a programmer who charges for his time ? bright.What do you call a KICAD programmer who does it for nothing ? a degree student just learning...….

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 04:25:36 am
content: This thread reminds me of the old thread of DEX program with Iliya the programmer (ended up banned) ... which coincidentally free_electron was heavily involved too.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 04:35:12 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on August 01, 2019, 04:25:36 amYou always get one who after using the software for 10 minutes knows better than the bloke who wrote it for 28 years !Being a software user doesn't make you a software engineer.I have done it since 1981, so know what I am talking about.Like I have said previously, I can buy a helicopter but it doesn't make me a pilot !My software has been good enough for the likes of British Telecom, Marconi command and control, Ford, Aston Martin, Land Rover etc etc etc.My software is in pretty much every telephone exchange in the uk.Its probably in your car.I did a lot for the military too so lets hope none of my rockets goes astray and disappears up his rear end !

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 04:36:11 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 01, 2019, 04:34:46 amIts only been £5 recently, was previously between £20 and £50 depending on which version you bought.With software you have to move around. Staying still with PCBCAD software is not the right thing to do.That's why its always been a part time thing.My main job has always been hardware and software design.Whether that be embedded systems, website design or CRM systems. Thats where the real money is.My best contract job was a job in telecoms and I got £10K for one months work.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 04:41:25 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 01, 2019, 04:37:40 amNot in the frozen north of Carlisle mate, it paid it off, it didn't pay for the whole thing.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 05:11:19 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 04:35:12 amToo bad, as many had informed you, as this discussion is now turning into the "attitude" talks, not about the technical discussion about the program anymore. Pity that you're not mature enough to realize this.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 05:25:24 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on August 01, 2019, 05:11:19 amIt wasn't me who started flaming the forum with lies about my software.I should have realised sooner it was just designed to get my back up and get nasty and then get banned.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 06:23:33 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 05:25:24 amDo you design your software for yourself or as a tool for others?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 06:55:53 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 03:46:05 amThat's quite an assumption you make there. I do hardware and firmware development for free on my own time because I enjoy it and I want to give back to the community that has given me things I use. I've also done it professionally for a living as do many other open source developers. In recent years CERN has started contributing to KiCAD development, pretty sure those guys know what they're doing.Either way it's a bit silly belittle the developers of a professional level product that is clearly superior to what you are offering. Even if they were just foolish amateurs, they seem to have had no trouble implementing a fully functional undo-redo feature that performs well enough to be perfectly usable on a 10 year old PC.Frankly it's the attitude that I find off-putting more than anything else. I'm still curious just what it is you hope to gain by making an ass of yourself in one of the biggest and most active engineering forums around.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 07:05:58 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 02:36:40 amWhat are you talking about? What functions are missing? How often has KiCAD crashed on you? I'm genuinely curious because I've been using it for around 10 years, I've designed several (low volume) commercial products with it and many dozens of hobby PCBs. I've often had several copies of it running for months at a time with various back burner hobby projects and I can't think of a single time when it has crashed. Sure there is the nightly build if you are an enthusiast and want to play software tester but for the rest of us there is the stable release.There is loads of paid software out there that is absolute garbage, do I really need to start listing it? If you're going to claim that paid software is always better than free software then you'll have to provide some data. Must I point out that the vast majority of the internet and the infrastructure of most major tech companies outside of Microsoft run on free open source software.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 07:07:51 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 01, 2019, 06:23:33 amI do both.Been programming and designing hardware since 1981. For many big companies. British Telecom, Marconi command and control, Ford, Land Rover, Creda, Hoover, Aston Martin etc etc

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 07:20:47 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 01, 2019, 07:05:58 amI can only give my opinion and that was KICAD was terrible. Very basic and hard to use.Software is pretty much the only industry where stuff is given away, imagine the outcry if Ford starting giving cars away !Or if someone came in your work and said they were sacking you and taking on someone to do your job for free ? Would you be happy ?A few years back EasyPC sold an old copy of their software to RS Components and they gave it away.If I started giving away components RS would be pretty upset.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 07:28:37 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 07:07:51 amYes, but this specific software?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 07:57:24 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 07:07:51 ami hope its not like the hand sketched pcb traces dso module you presented in the other thread. prove us wrong by showing examples, we keep asking for this. you said you spent time improving auto routers, auto placement, can you show us that and prove its better than other SW? heck nobody care to use auto router or placement even in Altium. i myself have my own way to do that, auto-auto in Altium is next to useless as well, esp with many logical sections in my circuit that only i know (even if i show forum members they will not know) what hope do i have Altium can do what i want? if you live long enough around here, you'll know spending time on auto-auto things will almost a waste of time but ymmv nobody can force you. look, we dont want to put you off, dont take it wrongly. we as users only hope for better SW, if its worth it, even £50,100 or £1000 we can pay. but if its not, there will be always free SW that is worth more or we will be stucked with multi K$ semi pro tools like Altium that still cant do everything what we want. talking about an airplane and a pilot, go read up boeing 737 story. and decide if its the wrong pilot? or the wrong airplane design, that is not a £15 worth of plane. money or freeness is not an issue here, functionality and usability is. but if you think its usable to you, then good for you you can keep it.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 08:01:32 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 07:20:47 amSo you spent an evening playing with a KiCAD and decided it was crap because it didn't work the way you wanted it to.Do you realise how ironic that is?Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 05:25:24 amNo idea what you're talking about!I've just read the whole thread, and most of what I see is really good constructive criticism.People commenting on their experience trying your software and finding it lacking are not "flaming the forum with lies", they are just relating their experience [please see above re irony].The majority of negativity is actually in your responses.

author: Spirit532
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 08:09:40 am
content: It's quite amusing to see someone ask for criticism and then refuse it all with a blank stare, saying "I don't care, I decide what goes in!". It's almost delusion of grandeur.If you asked for criticism and feedback solely to hear praise and get back-pats, you've come to the wrong forum, because people here do real engineering outside their closet, and will critique your software from the point of view of experienced users knowing what they miss and want in an EDA package.I myself only do engineering at a non-profit level(breaking even), and your software is entirely unusable for me, and judging from other replies, also unusable for everyone else.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 08:11:33 am
content: he didnt ask for an advice, so its our fault, maybe we can leave this thread in peace.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 08:13:57 am
content: This is going downhill faster than I thought. Ah well. Might as well get some popcorn and watch the burning...

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 08:18:45 am
content: Quote from: thinkfat on August 01, 2019, 08:13:57 amIsn't marshmallows better? At least you can use the fire to cook them...

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 08:20:04 am
content: BTW, I've been programming and designing digital circuits since I was in my teens (>35 years). I've even had a go at writing my own schematic capture and PCB design software, but I gave that up when I realised how much work is involved before it was anywhere useful. I stopped at basic schematic entry and simulation. I am actually impressed with what you've managed to develop (multiple times) on your own, but that doesn't make it particularly good or usable software for anyone other than yourself (with your intimate knowledge of it).Like others have commented here, at GBP5 I can imagine many people buying it just to try it. Compared to other commercial ECAD software, even GBP50 is pretty cheap. For that money you generally wouldn't complain, but you probably wouldn't waste time using it either and just write off the cost.The fact that someone paid GBP5 for it doesn't mean they kept using it, or even that they ever completed a design in it. I see lots of marketing material for products listing big companies as customers, but rarely does it mean anything. I suspect it is often just based on a one off purchase from someone at that company, maybe not even in an official capacity. Similary, the lack of bug reports or feature requests (like undo) tends to indicate lack of actual use.KiCAD has only become pretty good (not that I use it) in the last couple of years, around the time you mention a big drop off in sales. You seem to attribute that (drop in sales) to copyright abuse?, which seems disingenuous.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 08:42:23 am
content: Quote from: Kean on August 01, 2019, 08:20:04 amNo, sales dropped off in Dec 2017 when suddenly about 100 new listings hit ebay selling similar software.One bloke sells open source "free" software on ebay for about GBP5.That's the way to do it, make money off someone else's hard work !

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 08:51:44 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on August 01, 2019, 08:11:33 amBut I got it anyway !I did take on board the "allow components to be laid over tracks" suggestion. Easy fix.

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 09:10:33 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 08:51:44 amAnd ignored every single other advice someone gave you - or decided that they just want to spam and go on your nerves.Quote from: free_electron on July 30, 2019, 11:34:14 pmWow, that sounds very impressive. I would be realy interested in some more details of that project, if you are allowed to tell more.Btw, I wonder why you can build such things, since you seem to make mistakes on a regular basis, judged by the fact that you need an undo function. Pff... amateurQuote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 04:35:12 amI am happy that I neither live in britain, nor drive Ford, Aston Martin or Land Rover.Also, I am happy that "your" rockets won't be fired. And if they do, I hope they are build as perfectly as the example PCBs shown. If so, I am not realy scared.Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 02:14:41 amThat somehow reminds me of altium. Based on a software written decades ago and only updated from time to time. But on the other hand, Altium is sold for 5000$ or more. And that regularly.Naaah, I guess that is also just because of those stupid people that don't see the astonishing features of PCBCAD.

author: andreduplessis
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 09:40:34 am
content: I could not resist the urge to jump in and helpIf your software sells and you make billions, more power to you. However, if you want your program to be anything else than another TempleOS, I'd strongly suggest that you heed to other people's criticisms. Take a look at the 80/20 principlehttp://www.kanbancoding.com/2013/08/27/the-8020-rule-as-applied-to-software-development/. You have been hacking away at your code for more than 20 years and you are in that 20% superuser category of your own program. You cannot be an average user as you understand all the inner workings and that is why you need the input of the 80%.I worked on multi million line code ERP systems and have been at both sides way too many times.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 09:53:59 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 03:46:05 amWrong on both accounts and you clearly don't understand open source software. Open source software is all about ad-hoc collaboration without putting all kinds of deals in place. CERN for example has contributed a lot to Kicad simply because they want to use the software to design boards without being tied into a software vendor. Their benefit is that they can hire externals more easely because they don't need to invest money in a software package. Another example is GCC. Many processor vendors (like ARM for example) develop GCC actively. Making a compiler isn't their core business but a good compiler helps to sell their product. If you go through the Linux kernel you'll see contributions from hundreds of companies.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 10:01:40 am
content: @nigelwright7557Let's talk about import/export possibilities ... any?The OpenSource project "pcb-rnd" (fork of gEDA) is able to import KiCAD files and this is very nice.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 10:11:12 am
content: Quote from: legacy on August 01, 2019, 10:01:40 amAt the moment no import of other companies files.There is import of subset gerber files into PCB entry.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 10:21:03 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 04:35:12 amYes, and being a software engineer, doesn't make you a UX designer.Or a GUI designer.Or a salesman.Or customer service.Or a sales manager.Or an EE as a matter of fact.Right now, you are not making a very good job about those positions. The way the software looks like, I wouldn't use it if you would pay money for it. And if the other 300 boards look like what you showed on this forum, then you really have to brush up on the electronics skills. You cannot apply 80's methods with today's technology. That PC32 needs bypassing right next to the pin. SMD capacitor, and not on the other side of the board. IT doesn't matter if it is only a prototype.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 10:39:37 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on August 01, 2019, 07:20:47 amKickad is completely sufficient to design complicated boards. What you have shown so far are godawful basic designs which I actually would have shame showing to anyone. And the last thing your designs shown need is autorouter. Too basic to even bother using it. It seems the reason you don't ever need undo operation is because you just slap things together and don't ever bother changing anything to make it better. Extremely low density of component placement is a good indicator of it.VS

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 10:59:49 am
content: BTW WTF is this?

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 01:22:19 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 01, 2019, 10:59:49 amyou must have been absent in USB class. That's an genuine wireless USB connector.

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 01:51:19 pm
content: I assume that the USB connector and his frontmost (surface mount?) solder pads for the case are handled by the excelent autorouter as two seperate components besides being on the same net? So It decided that it would a great idea to route them like this, thinking, hey, at least it looks... interesting?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 01:40:48 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 28, 2019, 10:09:31 pmSorry, but that PCB is one of the worst I have ever seen.No way I would have made that public, especially if I wrote and sell PCB software.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 01:43:51 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on July 24, 2019, 03:07:21 amSorry again, that this schematic looks terrible, and something from the 1980's, and it's on your main page as the example

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 01:45:43 am
content: You example video layout doesn't even use 45/90 traces, that's not a good look.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 02:31:05 am
content: i thought the admin will lock the thread due to many harsh words (from OP point of view), but he came with even more harsher words

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 02:52:09 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on August 02, 2019, 02:31:05 amIf you offer something for sale in a forum that thing is open to be criticized. Same with the boards he's presented here, they are what they are and there is no point in saying good effort when he's trying to come off as experienced. If he didn't care what anyone thought he could've just kept it to himself as well. Most of the more personal things are due to his responses being of the "I don't care, it's my software, I'm the boss" attitude. He is in charge of his software, and his board designs, we're all in charge of our own opinions and whether we share them or not.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 05:57:53 am
content: Quote from: maginnovision on August 02, 2019, 02:52:09 amIndeed. He started the thread and has the link in his signature. You post on engineering forum and you are going to get feedback. Pro tip: engineers lack tact

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 07:39:46 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 02, 2019, 05:57:53 amTalking of which - out of curiosity I took a look at the link, even that's very 1980s. Also the company was dissolved in 2014... maybe time warps do exist after all?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 06:45:07 pm
content: Quote from: maginnovision on August 02, 2019, 02:52:09 amFunny thing with that PCB, when it was posted in another thread my assumption was ok this is a kid who has made a fairly impressive project and this is probably their first real PCB so I'll cut them some slack for all the classic noob mistakes and general sloppiness. I really don't know what someone is thinking presenting that as an example of what can be done with their software, I mean there is still a place for 1980s style through-hole layouts and relatively simple, low density boards but jeez, at least pick something presentable to show off, not something that looks like it was laid out by a 10 year old fumbling through a complex EDA package with no training. I mean what sort of reaction does one expect?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 10:57:34 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 02, 2019, 01:43:51 amI wouldn't dismiss it because of the looks. If it works it works. FFS Altium's default font is extremely poor to read especially when printed and it has been like this for over 15 years.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 05:55:47 am
content: I felt all nostalgic reading this thread; so much so that I downloaded DOSBox and then spent a few hours reminiscing with some of my personal archived history.My start with PCB CAD was with the original Protel (now Altium) suite. This was a bunch DOS programs, of which the schematic editor was "Schematic" (Schedit.exe) and the PCB editor was "AutoTrax" (Traxedit.exe). There were other separate .exe files for the component editors, BOM generators, etc.For basic 2-layer hobby stuff, in all honesty, a suite like this would still meet most peoples needs. They really were capable and efficient programs, and you could layout fairly complex designs with them. In fact they were so good I (and many others) wasn't convinced to upgrade until Protel 99SE could be had for a song secondhand around 2002. The keyboard shortcuts for absolutely everything were just awesome. The most serious deficiency of the PCB editor though is the absence of an ability to pour polygon planes, which instead can be constructed by laying down tracks and fills.A "modern" equivalent/work-alike to the original Protel suite, but with the ability to run in windows natively in high resolution and pour polygon planes in the PCB editor, IMO, should/would by all rights still be well worth 5 pounds to a lot of users, regardless if it looks like something from the 90s. Though the software package presented here I think comes short in some areas and the presentation seriously lacks a sense of aesthetics.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 11:14:17 am
content: Quote from: GK on August 03, 2019, 05:55:47 amTry "PCB Elegance v3.52". It has been recently released to the public

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 11:30:26 am
content: Hadn't heard of that one; doesn't look too bad!http://www.pcbelegance.org/Funny enough, it appears that Altium has released Autotrax into the public domain:https://airborn.com.au/layout/autotrax.htmlNot sure how useful it would be without the companion schematic editor though.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 12:04:35 pm
content: @nigelwright7557What about the possibility to "create" footprint, packages and custom libraries of components?e.g. I am creating just right now two components for my EagleCAD v6: the PLL MC88915, and the MPU MC68HC11K4 in Sxx packages.--- crazy idea, perhaps ...have you ever thought about porting your software to RISCOS? PCs are rather saturated about CADs and EDA tools whereas there is literally no one EDA CAD for RISCOS, for which there are only artistic applications and tools to make manuals with advance graphical effects, so it would be cool to have an electronic CAD! RISCOS is a powerful OS and it's currently still developed for modern RISCOS(v6) machines, including the super cheap RPI, which can be converted into RISCPC-compatible platform.The SDK for developing software for RISCOS is called DDE and costs only 60 UKP!Usually, RISCOS users (mostly located in the UK) do appreciate RISCOS software, and do usually buy it!

author: Spirit532
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 11:55:27 pm
content: RISCOS only runs on ARM in 2019. Linux runs on ARM. Ergo, no requirement for RISCOS.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 10:14:44 am
content: Quote from: Spirit532 on August 03, 2019, 11:55:27 pmAs I said, in the UK RISCOS is very popular, and RISCOS users do usually buy software for RISCOS while Linux users are more oriented to Open Source-only. Besides, there are already EDA tools for Linux, e.g. KiCAD, e.g. gEDA, e.g. pcb-rnd, all of them are very difficult to be ported to RISCOS (there is "UNIX compatibility layer" library, but it degrades performance), ..., while there is no EDA software for RISCOS.So, considering that there is a professional software like PCB-Elegance released for free and nobody on RISCPS, my idea is to move the software to RISCOS because I think it will have better chances to be appreciated.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 04:54:33 pm
content: I do wonder why RISCOS is still a thing. What advantage does it have over Linux? The biggest problem with Linux is lack of certain software, but I had never even heard of RISCOS before this thread so surely it doesn't have a lot of software that people need?

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 05:43:52 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 04, 2019, 04:54:33 pmRISCOS is much more transparent and simpler than most other OS. With the last RISCOS v6 source is open source and it's possible to understand all aspects of it. It was and it's still the canonical OS for an ARM microprocessor. ARM was born at Acorn's and RISCOS was the OS, Linux was later "adopted" by ARM simply because it's the most famous nowadays, anyway, RISCOS is light and fast, the desktop is innovative and very coherent, and if an OS was designed today for ARM SOCs like the Pi it would be like RISC OS.In the UK there exclusive private clubs, dedicated to RISCOS and Newcastle's technology, as well as there are annual meetings and workshops and developers who do software for RISCOS.And since the OP is English, putting forward the idea of porting the CAD to RISCOS looked a nice idea

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 05:55:31 pm
content: It makes more sense to create a Linux version than a version for a vintage OS which is used by almost no-one. Is there even a 64 bit version of RISCOS? The current crop of the ARM SoCs all have 64 bit CPUs and 3GB or more memory.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 07:44:24 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 04, 2019, 05:55:31 pmRISCOS v2-v4 can be classified "vintage OS" because it runs on vintage hardware (e.g. Archimedes (arm 610) and RISCPC/600 (StrongArm)), the v5 runs on Iyonix (Intel XScale ARM) and on A9Home (Samsung S3C2440 ARM), which is a semi-vintage hardware developed until 2008, but the v6 is a modern OS, which runs on the last modern ARM hardware (e.g. the RPI(ARM Cortex A53)), and there are more than 10K users just in the UK.Technically, from the point of view of the DDE toolchain, the "classic" version is the one that only runs in 26-bit mode, while the "new version" is the one that runs in 32-bit mode. No, there is not yet any plan for any 64-bit RISCOS.Linux and BSDs (including freeBSD and MacOSX) already have programs like gEDA, KiCAD and pcb-rnd. I am contributing on the second one (pcb-rnd), supporting Gentoo on hardware like Linux/HPPA (vintage), Linux/PowerPC (vintage), Linux/POWER9 (modern), and Linux/MIPS{4/BE (vintage) ,32/BE (modern)}.p.s.If you are a fan of 'Who Wants to be a Millionaire', the on screen graphics are supplied by RISCOS, and it has been said that the production company needed a reliable solution to their graphics since the filming has to be done in front of a live studio audience. Well? Well, this also applies to BBC, for which there are still Iyonix machines in use

author: taydin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 10:15:31 pm
content: When I first read all of the harsh negative comments about his CAD software, I kinda felt upset, because it's so easy to spend a few moments of time with someones hard work and then just dismiss it. But after seeing his attitude towards people that provided genuine and very useful feedback, it becomes apparent that all the harsh, negative comments WERE in fact justified.This thread, sir, has been a very NEGATIVE advertising for your product, and it's all because of your attitude.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 11:13:51 pm
content: Quote from: taydin on August 04, 2019, 10:15:31 pmthere is no harsh negative comments here Sir, only constructive critics. it can become harsh though to few people who dont want to change from ancient way of life.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 01:06:40 am
content: This was a funny and entertaining thread to read !

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 12:22:24 pm
content: This thread was an entertaining read.To OP nigelwright7557. That is quite the endeavor to make a complete PCB suite. I know i wouldn't even attempt to do something like it. Some of the comments on it indeed sound quite rough on it, but to a large degree they do have fair points and is very helpful feedback.If you have been constantly using this sort of software it can be hard to understand why a lot of forum users here consider certain functionality vital to getting the job done. I have been using old versions of Eagle for my first boards (Back when you had to even manually hit F2 to redraw the workarea) and it had a lot of the weird "non Windows" ways of doing things, makes for a good bit of learning curve but you get used to it. Done quite a few boards and way pretty happy with it. But eventually i moved on to Altium Designer and from there never looked back. All the new editing candy and little helper tools made drawing boards a lot faster and made it way easier to make tidy looking designs quickly. Its only then that i saw how inefficient, clumsy and time consuming some tasks actually are in Eagle.Im not going to say that Altium is the best thing ever for making PCBs. It's slow, buggy and drags on way too much legacy crap while missing some obvious features. Combined with how much this thing costs actually not a very good value for money at all. But its what i got used to and my current workplace also happens to use Altium so i keep using it.If a lot of this modern "editing candy" candy was added to your software along with a better looking schematic symbol library this could indeed be a nice PCB tool. I do realize undo is VERY hard to add to software that was not designed around it, but it could still be bolted on by tracking changes in the memory structures that hold the traces/components. That way you can store a "difference patch" somewhere in memory holding only what has changed in that step, allowing you to just apply the patch to your main memory structures to being them into a prior state. Allow the user to set how much memory is allowed to be used by undo in MB. That way you can have 1000s of undo steps in 1MB of memory if they are simple edits, or just a few steps if a lot got changed.Its nice that you are looking after RAM usage, but honestly nobody is going to notice if your tool is using 1MB versus 500MB of memory. As long as you don't eat up 10GB of memory or something ridiculous like that.I suggest you try to get together some people with various PCB tools and have live steam a "PCB layout race" where all of you get a schematic on paper and the goal is to turn it into a PCB that passes certain quality guidelines in as short of a time as possible. This would include obeying certain layout rules, drawing up a few new library components from a datasheet(including some pain in the ass footprint connector or switch) and generate the final output files to produce the board and document it. All of them should be experienced PCB designers that are experienced at there tool. Then you will see why a lot of these "fancy modern features" are quite the time saver.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 01:33:47 am
content: Quote from: Berni on August 05, 2019, 12:22:24 pmSorry not been back for a while, been busy updating some of the software.I added the undo function. Its quite complex due to having to save/restore some quite complicated data structures.I also found a problem with "off grid" SMD components and connecting tracks to them.Adding extra tracks were off horizontal or vertical which was messy.So I added two new functions.Control b will add a track segment and align it backwards to the previous pin.Control f will add a new segment in line with the next pin.Now its added I don't know how I did without it. Makes SMD layout very neat.Found there are two specs for component rotations in pick/place files so I added the option to use either.Someone complained about when removing a component the previously connected tracks were moved to (0,0)I changed the software to stop doing that but it now also allows dropping a new component on floating track ends.My pcb vendor complained about unusual file name extensions on gerber files.So I changed what I could to his recommendations.I found with mixed SMD/though hole the via sizes were quite different.So rather than change them singly as I went along I added a block mode via size change function.I wont be getting involved in any more slanging matches about my softwareI might or might not answer to this thread.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 06:22:03 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on September 21, 2019, 01:33:47 amNice work, not had a chance to try out your software yet but I'm going to be using the undo almost straight away I expect. I'm intending to use someone like JLCPCB to make some boards up. I assume since they are gerbers I can submit those straight to them. Is there any conversion or renaming I need to do from PCBCAD based on this info?https://support.jlcpcb.com/article/22-how-to-generate-the-gerber-files

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 07:36:45 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on September 21, 2019, 06:22:03 pmI order a lot from JLCPCB.JLCPCB had no problem with the old gerber filenames but I tried to make mine as close as possible.I now use GBO and GTO for silk screen.I use plain names for .drill, .copper and .resist for the rest.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2019, 12:04:29 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on September 21, 2019, 01:33:47 amWell, I'm very happy to see you have listened to the suggestions and have the balls to admit it

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 08:03:12 am
content: The November software update is out now for PCBCAD51 and PCBCAD360.Added auto-via and ability to set a minimum track size.https://www.murtonpikesystems.co.uk

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 06:37:25 pm
content: Well this has all gotten quite a lot more civil. Attitude and a little humility goes a long way.