Open source SODIMM - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 11:25:19 am
content: Hi,I want to know if we have open source DDR3, DDR4 desktop and laptop SODIMM designs, do you know any?

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 02:51:48 pm
content: First, it's SODIMM, and second, I suppose they kind of are.https://www.jedec.org/standards-documents/focus/memory-module-designs-dimms/DDR4/260-pin%20Unbuffered%20SODIMMs

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 06:28:24 pm
content: Thanks for the info, unfortunately they have only allegro *.brd file and I use altium, And altium needs allegro to be able to convert and open the files,Also I want to know if we have ultra low cost Chinese DDR manufacturers? do you happen to know some? what brands for DRAM's do you suggest that have low prices?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 06:34:46 pm
content: Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on April 11, 2021, 06:28:24 pmAltium’show-to guidesays this:Quote

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 06:49:30 pm
content: What's the point? No way it will be cheaper than off the shelf RAM.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 07:09:22 pm
content: QuoteI have found it and it needed exterext.exe which is installed with alleger, I do not have alleger, it's also in their free version too, so if any one has it and can upload it, I can give it a try to see if it can import the files into altium.QuoteThe prices of SODIMM modules has increased, also I have found an investors, which he is willing to make 1K units of SODIMMs, so If I can find the Right parts with the right prices, Who knows, maybe He could do it cheaper and make profit.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 07:24:44 pm
content: Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on April 11, 2021, 07:09:22 pmWhich is laughably low. These are a very thin margin products which need to be produced at huge quantities to make any sense. I would be really surprised if you manage buy just RAM ICs at the price of off the shelf modules sold in retail, not to say manufacture them.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 07:56:33 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 11, 2021, 07:24:44 pmThat's probably also why the designs are "open source" - there's very little to gain from any secrecy since the layouts and functionality are already standard.You may get cheaper if you use recycled parts, which is what a lot of stuff from Chinese sellers is. (I've not had any problems with some PC133 which was clearly used, and turned out to actually be rated up to 166.)

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 09:05:57 pm
content: Reading around the subject, building a DDR SODimm is not the same as fabricating Arduino Nano clones. Even if their was a board design and firmware on Github, delivering the hardware requires a high level of expertise. That's expensive specialist digital and analog test equipment (bandwidths up to 5GHz), bit error stress testing and batch testing methodologies. Not to mention certifications from the OEM producers who consume the devices. Even leasing the equipment, your design and pre-production budget could burn $100,000 without a single sale.+ As a tech guy, I only as a rule install DDR from Samsung, Kingston or Corsair, as these to me, are proven reliable devices from quality assured sources. Not some cheap unknown sticks from a Chinese ebay storefront.An important point to understand for a budding digital entrepreneur is the raw DRAM chips are priced as a commodity. This means prices fluctuate, sometimes wildly. A 'spot price' can be sought for a production run happening in six months but, your investor will need to commit $$$$$s up front, either through a brokerage or escrow agent. Right now DRAM prices are higher due to high demand in the vehicle and consumer sectors and, the global covid shutdown slowing production. So really, you might want to think about your business case first.https://uk.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-memory/store-memory-pricingGood luck with your project.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 09:18:05 pm
content: Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on April 11, 2021, 07:09:22 pmhe should invest in something with greater odds of success, like lottery tickets

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 05:40:31 am
content: To make 1K SODIMM we need to buy 10K DDR parts, which is a good starting point.QuoteYour points only cover 20% of customers, the rest 80% would prefer to buy something that would do their job with lower prices.

author: mvs
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 09:18:36 am
content: Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on April 11, 2021, 06:28:24 pmDRAM market is an oligopoly with 3 suppliers: Samsung, Micron and SK Hynix.Chinese companies do not have a required know how for DDR4 production with sufficient performance and yield, to be competitive to D3 group in any way.Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on April 12, 2021, 05:40:31 amGo ahead, $50K is not that much money to loose.PS do not forget, that you will also need following:- high density multilayer PCBs with gold fingers, EEPROM chips, termination resistors and caps- assembly service that can handle BGA chips- test jig and test software for DRAM Modules (you need to determine correct SPD settings and write them into EEPROM)PPS just to avoid possible confusion:DRAM chips are usually marked in bits and not bytes. With eight 4Gb DRAM chips you can build one DRAM module with 4GB size.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 11:53:15 am
content: Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on April 11, 2021, 07:09:22 pmRead the how-to properly, man!1. YOU can download and install the demo version of OrCAD.2. Even the demo needs a license, so once the trial period is over (the how-to tells you this), it stops working. Thus copying the file won’t help you anyway.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 02:24:39 pm
content: for time related expiration softwares, i use vmware machines, you have some trick on the net to stop the vmware "os" requesting time from the host machine .... or deepfreeze machines ??my 2 cents

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 02:36:43 pm
content: Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on April 12, 2021, 05:40:31 amExcept you won't be able to provide that. Trying to compete with big guys at producing low margin commodity product at low quantities while using the same components is one of the dumbest business ideas ever.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 04:04:47 pm
content: This thread is surreal.Just the idea that you can make something cheaper (at 10k volume!) than companies producing millions of SODIMMs a month, while operating at gross margins of 3...5 per cent?But OK, if you want to be poor it's your choice.BTW: current price of SODIMM-200, 667 MHz is 5...6 US$/GB. Try to get the parts even at that price will be a major challenge. Scavenging SODIMMs from old PCs would probably be a better business, but Nigeria already has that cornered.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 04:21:25 pm
content: ali, straight question: who is your customer?Small margin sensitive OEM producers, IT managers, retailers, or budget gamers, for example. If you define clearly your target market, you'll be able to tailor your offering to their expectations of what perceived benefit your SODIMM brings to them, versus the competition.If your customers expect cheap, they still will not accept poor quality. The 'value' range offerings from the likes of Corsair and Infineon, are still built from reliable chipsets with full quality assurance.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 08:14:21 pm
content: QuoteYou can sit and watch and say it can not be done, Until someone do it and you will say eventually it can be doneWe have also Chinese manufacturers, for the record, Winbond is one of them.As you say a 4GB DDR3 is around 6*4 =24$I think I can find 4Gb DDR3 parts around 1.5$ in 10K units, so I need 8*1.5 =12$ worth of DRAM, also the PCB, Passives and EEPROM is around 0.5$, and considering the assembly etc, it would at most take about 2$ too, so the production price is around 15$, it has around 9$ or 30% margin on only 1K modules! of course the higher density Modules and laptop modules with smaller PCB size, has higher margin.PCB size and price calculations, for a 6 layer JOB, the PCB cost is around 0.375$ eachEEPROM price is around $0.0596https://lcsc.com/product-detail/EEPROM_LRC-LR24C32D_C411182.htmlDecoupling caps 0.0007$ I need 100Units of each on PCB so it would be 0.07$https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Multilayer-Ceramic-Capacitors-MLCC-SMD-SMT_CCTC-TCC0402X7R104K160AT_C392963.htmlAnd of course I can not tell where I can get DDR3 for 1.5$

author: Pineapple Dan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 08:56:19 pm
content: Better to make one SODIMM first and see how well it works. After that you can try making 1000s.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 09:20:08 pm
content: Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on April 12, 2021, 08:14:21 pmWell, searching on amazon and newegg the price is more like $18-$20, so that cuts your margin estimate in half. I can get a basic spec 4 GB SODIMM from amazon from a variety of no-name brands for $20 delivered. $24 buys me Crucial name brand SODIMMS which is fine but if you want to get that price you have to make the argument why I should buy your memory instead of Crucial when I could get a no-name brand for less.I mean, knock yourself out if you want to try, but DRAM chip manufacturing is already a hard way to earn a living. Assembling commodity RAM modules from DRAM made by other companies has to be one of the lowest margin businesses in the electronics industry.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 09:23:06 pm
content: I'm looking here on ebay at Samsung DDR3 4Gb SODIMM modules (8 chip) for the equivalent of $15 usd each retail. Unsoldering the chips works out at $1.88 each.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 10:14:07 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on April 12, 2021, 09:20:08 pmAnd that's a retail price with sellers' expenses and profit included.

author: mvs
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 10:21:51 pm
content: Is there any need for new DDR3 DIMMs nowadays? A transition from DDR3/DDR3L to DDR4 was back in 2015.The market of used DDR3 DIMMs is saturated, prices are quite low.With a typical hardware renewal cycle of around 5 years, big companies already have decomissioned many of their first DDR4 desktops, laptops and servers.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 11:05:24 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 12, 2021, 10:14:07 pmInformation you can find publicly if you care:https://sell.amazon.com/pricing.html#fulfillment-feesEvidence would suggest that Amazon is a reasonable cost effective way to sell small volumes of goods to individual end users. Whether you use them or not, the price structure is probably informative. If you sell a pair of 4 GB RAM sticks at $40 and they qualify for "small and light" and you use fulfillment by amazon, they will charge 15% referral fee plus $2 fulfillment (warehousing, pack, and ship). That amounts to $8. If you produced them for $30, you net $2 to cover all of your own overhead costs. Again, you don't have to use amazon, but doing that yourself costs money too.You can reduce the cost of finding customers and fulfilling orders if you sell in bulk to a single customer such as a small volume system integrator. Presumably they are going to expect a discount over retail price. Probably they will be looking for something on the order of 15% + $2, because these aren't deep economic secrets that only random EEVblog posters can figure out.Now if you have some way of addressing a market that isn't well served by the current product lineup that would be a different situation. Essentially that is why you have "gamer" products with over-styled heat spreaders and RGB bling. They are just looking for ways to generate some product differentiation in a highly commoditized market. If someone will pay $5 more on a a $100 purchase and your manufacturing costs only increase $.50 you can double your margin. But as presented you just seem to be trying to undercut high volume low margin manufacturers on a commodity part.Nobody doubts that you can technically do it, we just doubt it makes business sense. All the information you need on the technical side is in the first couple responses.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 11:11:15 pm
content: Converting allegro designs requires the extracta.exe executable but also some special magical text instruction files. I have them somewhere. I think either Altium or Cadence supplies them in any case. They're not that magical, just rarely used.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2021, 11:22:27 pm
content: Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on April 12, 2021, 08:14:21 pmIf you manage to produce it for $15 you will have negative margin because nobody with any clue will buy them for $15 in volume. And it's would make way more sense to buy existing stuff at $15 in volume, then resell it in low quantities rather than to produce your own and sell at low qty.BTW you did not include R&D, test equipment, testing procedure (do you intend to sell them untested?) and shipping expenses.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 03:36:26 am
content: How about 4GB for $13.80 @ qty of 1 with free shipping included?https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000418955365.htmlOr 8GB for $22.10 ($0.84 shipping for any quantity)https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002393607532.html

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 10:46:10 am
content: If you think you can not sell it higher to make a profit, then you simply would not make it, But I think I can find a customer for it.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 12:15:56 pm
content: Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on April 13, 2021, 10:46:10 amWhat's the point in producing your junk RAM with dodgy parts and without expertise and proper testing, when you can buy already produced RAM for less? If you want your own brand of RAM, it makes more sense just slapping your stickers on RAM produced by somebody else.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 12:24:28 pm
content: https://szxinshenhua.en.alibaba.com/product/60789615425-807193699/Compatible_with_all_4gb_ddr3l_1333mhz_laptop_ram_memory.html?spm=a2700.icbuShop.prewdfa4cf.8.340f671a5V6ESj

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 01:50:13 pm
content: I've just found a UK asset disposal company offering to trade and public sector buyers, 4GB SODIMM ram at £300 for 200 units. That's as low as CA$2.60 each. I am sure that price could be beaten down. Would it be better to use those labels and rebrand your SODIMM as 'second use' memory? Rather like printer ink carts. Bottom line, you cannot compete with a market that's already becoming saturated with scrap memory.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2021, 06:34:22 pm
content: If you want to make money selling memory, make a clone of the Commodore REU chip and sell 16MB expansions for the Commodore 64 with a passthrough port. You'll get those vintage computing folks excited!And no, I don't mean a GeoRAM clone: the much more capable Commodore REU.There's some good money to be made supporting vintage computers.