Which cheap 4 channel scope is most fitting for general purpose digital work? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: varesa
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2014, 01:06:37 pm
content: I currently have a usb-connected oscilloscope (Agilent U2702A, 2ch, 200MHz). It has its good sides, but I would like a standalone unit and 4 channels. It is kind of annoying to find all the cables and install the software on whatever computer is available. Also "navigating" the signal is not as easy using "virtual knobs and mouse" as it is with a normal scope. I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, as the search did not allow words that are one character long (4), and "four channel oscilloscope" did not really give anything relevant.Anyway it seems that it is hard to find a 4ch scope scope that is not too expensive and is somewhat good. Not too many models to choose fromOnes I'm considering:- Agilent DSOX2000- Hameg HMO2000- Siglent SDS2000Others I've looked at:- Agilent DSOX3000- Rigol 1000Z, 2000, Rigol 4000- Tektronix DPO2000I really like the feature-set and price-point of the Rigol 2000 series, but they do not have a model with four channels. Then there is the 4000 series, but they start to get expensive.Then there is the Agilent X 2000 and 3000 series. The 2000 is affordable, but I'm scared by the small memory (100kpts). The 3000 series looks much better, but again, it starts to get expensive. EDIT: I just found I had missed a memory upgrade to 1Mpts, which brings this to the same line as the TekI've started looking at Tek devices, mainly the DPO2000 series. Haven't really gone thoroughly through its pros/cons yet though. (Also didn't find a eevblog episode on that) I'll try to find a review on that soonI'd like it to be under 2k€. I'm a student, so atleast some brands have discounts. Also if there's a dealer in Finland I can get addittional few percents of through my school. Some of the brands that apply are Agilent, LeCroy, Tektronix and GW Instek.What brands or models would you recommend? Have I overlooked something at the models I've discarded? I'd love to get your opinion before I spend a few grands on something

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2014, 01:17:01 pm
content: Might suggest Agilent used store onebay.Agilent DSOX2014A Oscilloscope: 100 MHz. 4 ChannelsUS $1,699.002 available / 1 soldI dont know how student discounts work. Someone suggest 15% on brand new/list. I think you just missed the boat with the free upgrades.Might also suggest Rigol 2000 with saleae for protocol decoding.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2014, 01:30:50 pm
content: Rigol DS1074Z. But not sure if this will meet your bandwidth requirements. It shares some nice features with DS2000, but does have lower bandwidth. Anyways, look up the specs and see if it's a match for your use case.

author: varesa
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2014, 01:36:00 pm
content: Quote from: nowlan on April 11, 2014, 01:17:01 pmHow does the standard low memory depth on DSOX2000 work out? Will it be an issue if I don't need to capture 2000 packets for instance? Also is the memory upgrade just a software license, as they were -50% for students?I'd love a rigol 2000, but I wan't 4 channels. I already have a LA, so I'm mostly looking for DSOs, not MSOs anyway

author: varesa
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2014, 01:37:37 pm
content: Quote from: mrflibble on April 11, 2014, 01:30:50 pmI almost forgot the 1000Z. When I first found 2000 series I dropped all the 1xxx ones, but then that didn't work out. I'll have to look at that again

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2014, 03:56:53 pm
content: I really like my DS1074Z, it represents excellent value for money at its price point.

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2014, 04:16:00 pm
content: Quote from: varesa on April 11, 2014, 01:36:00 pmIt depends on what you want to do with it.QuoteHopefully not, since the stock memory config supports only 250 segments.QuoteYes.QuoteThat's good, because the MSO on the DSOX2000 is pretty crappy (IMO).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2014, 07:30:26 pm
content: If you already have a USB scope for your projects, you can afford to be patient till you find what you want.You have not stated exactly what bandwidth you are after, yes you have 200 MHz now, but do you want less or more?The new Siglent SDS2000 range has models that might suit you.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-msosds2000-series/It's a 30 page thread so far, but it has most of the info and links that you might need.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2014, 09:16:38 pm
content: Finland? 4-ch and up to 2 k EUR?I'd look at (without any preference)Hameg's HMO2000 seriesAgilent's 2000 X-seriesRigol's DS1000Z (or if you can squeeze a little more, the DS4000)Tektronix - from what I hear, it is better to stay away from Tektronix's low-cost models (the 2000 series has only 1 Mpoint record length) We had a DPO2024B at work but I never used it much. The display is nice. Preferred to use an Agilent 6000 series.The Hamegs are decent scopes, but they lose out on the price vs. Agilent's used deals imo. But if you ask the guys from Rohde&Schwaz in Vantaa, they might have a Hameg demo unit at a lower price. Send them an email, they're really friendly guys!The CertiPrime ('Premium Used') MSOX2024A in Agilent's Ebay store is a killer deal, and you can most likely place an offer so that you stay below 2k EUR (remember to add VAT on top)Agilent's store does also have a regular used DSOX2014A for ~1220 EUR (excl. VAT, should be possible to get for maybe 1350 incl. 24% VAT), which leaves you with some extra cash for the options or other gear for you lab (PSU, DMM)Rigol is great if money is tight. You can get a lot of gear for 2k at Bartronix. For example:DS1074Z-S + DSA815 for 1760 (incl VAT)DS1074Z-S + DM3068 for 1525 (incl VAT)Then you can probably do some magic to the fw of the Rigols and Agilents...All the low-cost scopes will have below 2 Mpts memory, except for the Rigol. But is that really important? If it's an all-purpose scope 4-ch with 200 MHz or less bandwidth. Just about any of the scope series above will do the trick.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2014, 10:47:16 pm
content: IMHO the Siglent SDS2000 series (that is what Tautech pointed to) is a much better buy than the Rigol 1000Z series. Twice the samplerate, bigger screen, versions up to 300MHz and it has an MSO option.

author: varesa
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2014, 12:24:53 pm
content: Quote from: Neganur on April 11, 2014, 09:16:38 pmAnd Agilent DSOX2000 is much better?Isn't the standard 100kpts with 1M upgradeable?Quote from: Neganur on April 11, 2014, 09:16:38 pmOkay, I'll throw them a mail. The discounts I can get through my school might balance the cheaper prices from abroads, unless for example it is possible to handle the Agilents through their Finnish office with an invoice.Quote from: Neganur on April 11, 2014, 09:16:38 pmI've yet to take a deeper look at the lower end Rigols. (And also the siglents mentioned below.) After I saw the 1000(I don't remember if it was Z or not) compared to the 2000 (which I almost fell in love with) I kind of labeled the lower series as "bad" compared to other modern stuff. Now I find it hard to get that thought off my mind. It could have been the non-Z of course, which is somewhat inferior to the newer ones?Quote from: Neganur on April 11, 2014, 09:16:38 pmI haven't really used any other scopes than the U2702A, which I think was specified to have 32Mpts of memory. I don't really have anything to compare it to, so I'm mostly going by what I've read. Most of that is "You DO need deep memory", "DSOX2000 is bad because of small memory" and so on.The scope would be a all-around tool, but I'm mostly into digital stuff. I'm starting to play around with FPGAs and ARM uCs, some of which are getting +100MHz in clock speed. Of course the i/o in my projects seldom is that fast, but I feel that (upgradeable to) 200MHz is the minimum. Higher would be better, but for example the Agilent DSOX2000 it is the max.I'd like it to be still usable in a few years, both performance and build quality-wise. I'd rather not get a new scope every two years

author: crispytato
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2014, 03:21:08 pm
content: Rigol 1074z is very, very different to the old 1000 series. Much higher res screen, intensity graded display, serial decode options, and a lot more.. There's also the license key hack that gives you full options on them for free, which I don't think the Agilent's or most other brands for that matter, have available.They're definitely worth a look if you haven't already as I think they're the best value for money available in this segment of the market. I think connor wolf (see Youtube) has a review on the 1074z that's pretty in depth.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2014, 04:05:20 pm
content: The DS1000Z is indeed completely different to any other from the DS1000 series. It's more like a DS2000 or DS4000.I own a Rigol DS1074Z-S and I must say I'm very impressed with the features you get for the price point.A few minor itches I've noticed in my (short) time using it:- It's a fairly small unit. The screen resolution is same as the DS2000 series (800x480), but smaller in size. The UI is perfectly readable, but a bit on the tiny side. Especially things like measurements that are put under the screen.- They used both dark blue & light blue for channels. Why no green?- Recording frames is useful, but you can't use the serial decoders simultaneously (it won't record, or if you turn them on afterwards, it won't decode anything). That would make it a much nicer serial debugger. (But I suspect this is better served by a dedicated logic analyzer, in the end)- The fan makes quite some noise. I'm used to a really quiet PC, but this messes things up. Not a problem for me though, because if I need some rest I am not debugging HW. In any other case, I'll likely put on some better noise (like hard rock/heavy metal).- ADC is shared. So 1GSPS only on 1ch, 500MSPS on 2ch, 250MSPS on 3/4ch.- With the signal generator, I suspect the grounds are all common so you have to watch out when you're generating & probing.- The hacked 500uV range is partly useful. My unit has a pos/neg offset of ~3mV on each channel, so that's ~6 divisions. AC coupling or self-cal doesn't resolve this. After all, it's an unsupported, uncalibrated, rangeOn the other hand the performance is great (mid level hobbyist). The upsides for me was it's pricepoint, the relatively cheap 25MHz 2-ch Arb generator (+ AM/FM modulation capability per channel); RS232/I2C/SPI decoders; long memory; intensity graded display; trigger options and the hack

author: owiecc
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2014, 04:32:15 pm
content: For Hameg scopes check out theirbargain shop. Currently there is a HMO724 for 1200€. They also have promos every few months for software options. Last summer HOO10 (serial decoding) was for free. They may also have some additional discounts for students. Last year you could buy all options (HOO10+HOO12) plus digital logic probes (ca. €340) for €160 total.Australian R&S mentions 30% student discount:http://webstore.rohde-schwarz.com/aus/universities.html

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2014, 06:49:34 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 11, 2014, 10:47:16 pmThe Siglents are actually significantlymorethan twice the max samplerate, in many configurations:DS1000Z: 1G, 500M, 250M, 250M (1,2,3,4 channels active)SDS2000: 2G, 2G, 1G, 1G (ditto)Also, the depth of the 1000Z is less: 6M/ch in 4 chan mode, vs. 14M/ch on the SDS2000. And in segmented mode, the 1000Z lacks any time-stamps. (A fairly significant disappointment.)The 1000Z is more affordable though, and has been around long enough to have proved itself as a generally solid instrument. The new Siglents haven't.

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2014, 07:02:52 pm
content: Quote from: hans on April 12, 2014, 04:05:20 pmI'd agree with that assessment.QuoteThey're saving green (and red) for the MSO logic channels. (On their upcoming MSO1000Z, and MSO2000A models.)QuoteI believe that's an unintentional oversight, and they intend to correct it. (They already have on FW3.0 on the DS2000A.)QuoteYes, it has an impressive combination of features and performance, at its price point.

author: varesa
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2014, 09:21:28 pm
content: I started watching the 1104Z review by connor wolf and looked at the specs when I noticed that 100MHz is the maximum bandwith. I might not want to go that low for future-proofing. I guess if it's from Rigol, it would be the 4000 series. Otherwise it looked like an instrument I really considered getting. (Like how I was getting the 2000 one before I noticed they did not have a model with 4 channels).

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2014, 06:09:37 am
content: Quote from: varesa on April 12, 2014, 09:21:28 pmActually, on the 1104Z, while 100MHz is the rated BW, actual is more like 150-160MHz. There are pluses and minuses to that. E.g., with 4 channels enabled you won't be able to satisfy Nyquist and avoid aliasing (w/o kicking in the 20MHz limiter). (Whereas with the DS1074Z you would, w/o the limiting.)QuoteThat's fine, though it wasn't in your initial recommendation requirements. In that case, I'd recommend focusing your attention on the new Siglents. Or start saving your pennies for the DS4000-series.

author: varesa
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2014, 05:31:59 pm
content: The Siglent SDS2000 has some impressing specs: 110kwfms/s, 200MHz, 28Mpts, ...I'm trying to decide between that and a Hameg. I could buy the Hameg locally so support/warranty would be easy. I could also get something like -40% off them.The Hamegs have a lot more memory than the Agilent DSOX2000 for example, but their waveform update rate is somewhat slow compared to the others:2500 wfms/s for the HMO2000 vs 50-110k for Agilent/Siglent. If I get a good deal, I might even be able consider the HMO3000 which is a bit faster.How much does the waveform update rate matter for general purpose, mostly digital stuff. I understand it mostly matters when trying to catch rarely happening glitches? Have any of you Hameg owners had a problem with it?

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2014, 08:21:35 pm
content: I was considering the HMO3054 for a while but the price on those CertiPrime was just too good if you factor the full bonanza Agilent option bundle in.But there is also a lot of things in the HMO3k that the Agilent didn't have, like native LAN interface,DVI output (if you have several monitors on the desk it's easy to quickly push the input selection button on one of them).The probes from Hameg are affordable, if you're looking for active probes at some point. 8 Mpts of memory, advanced math,6 digit hw counter, mask test, choose between sinx/x, linear or sample&hold interpolation (Agilent is only sinx/x) etc. So really not at all far behind the Agilent.The options on the Hameg are a bit expensive but you said you wouldn't need the MSO stuff. Maybe the segmented memory is something to keep in mind.There is also this nice EDU bundle for the MSO+serial decodes+pod available (sadly just one 8-bit pod, but the total discount is amazing) option atwww.datatec.defor 198 EUR before VAT if you're desperate.They won't sell outside of Germany though so you'd have to know someone in Germany who also is a student.(not hard, there's tons of German exchange students in Finland)Can't help with the Siglent, never looked at a datasheet of them.I also wouldn't sweat it with the wfm/s numbers, (HMO3000 up to 5k/s) the Agilent is also just an "up to" number. Take a look at the two attached tables.They are wfm/s numbers for 500 MHz and 100 MHz scopes from Agilent, Tektronix and LeCroy. You will still see glitches, you can also use the display persistence.

author: Sebastian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2014, 09:15:54 pm
content: I own a Rigol DS1104Z and I am pretty impressed with it's bang per buck ratio and it is a decent scope but if you want to do a lot of serial decoding with it I would not recommend it because its quiet painful to use. The problem is that it is software based so it is slow and it can not decode a lot of date at once and in some cases not at all. The problem is if you zoom out to much it shows crap because apparently it uses the signal that is displayed on the screen so the resolution is not good enough. The second problem is that it does only decode data if the start condition is displayed, in case of I²C the actual start condition and in case of SPI the falling edge of CS. That means you can not scroll through a long stream of data and you also can not zoom out which makes it impossible to see the decoded data at the end of the transmission. That problem does probably exist on all Rigol scopes because they all use software based decoding but I don't know for sure. We have Tektronix scopes at school and they do it how you would expect it. I don't know the exact model number but most of them are also only 100MHz but I am sure they still cost as much as a few DS1104Zs but if you need serial decoding on your scope it may be worth the higher price.

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2014, 05:50:28 am
content: Quote from: varesa on April 19, 2014, 05:31:59 pmHamegs are excellent quality scopes. But I don't think you meant you could get-40% off. That would be a +40% cost.If you can get them that cheap, maybe you could set yourself up as an exporter.

author: varesa
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2014, 09:34:05 am
content: Quote from: Mark_O on April 21, 2014, 05:50:28 amExporting them might be *a bit* off the terms of the educational discountsMaybeIcould want a second or a third one...

author: varesa
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 09:35:31 pm
content: Giving a little status update here:As result from query of some other used model from Tek I got an offer for MSO2024B I think. The price was good, but I did not take it yet. I asked if they had any discounts for MDO3000 lower end models. I also sent an inquiry to R&S for discounts on HMO2000/3000.At some point I got kind of an reality check. Since I need to get a new workstation-grade laptop, I can't propably spend enough money to get 3xxx anything. I also "fear" that a Tek/Agilent/Hameg 2xxx model might limit me, which propably is not really true, but I've got that stuck to my head.I almost got myself an DS1xx4Z, but then I became kind of disappointed by the performance. (I've looked too much at things like DSOX3000, MDO3000 and HMO3000 :p).I looked at the Siglents more carefully. The SDS2000 seems really great. I'm currently in the process of reading the 31-page thread on them here. Too bad most of it so far has been debating over some precise numbers. I hope I'll see the other aspects of the scope when I get closer to the end of that thread, as it got released. I also sent an inquiry to the local reseller, I think he's rf-loop here on this forum.(I think I've also read all even distantly related oscilloscope-related threads in the first 75 pages of this sub-forum )

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 11:41:02 pm
content: If you make an inquiry to Siglent China they will get your local distributor to make contact with you. They may have a Demo model for you to evaluate.

author: varesa
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 09:08:06 pm
content: Hmm, I got estimated prices from rf-loop.SDS2204 would come around 1900€.I also got an email from R&S Finland. They are offering me a HMO demo unit -20%.They did not tell which model(s) they have available yet though, but I might be able to get a HMO2024 around the same price.I think the Siglent had higher specs, but the Hameg is propably built better...Quote from: tautech on May 11, 2014, 11:41:02 pmI could do that, but I doubt there are that many distributors in Finland and I already know one. He has said that he has a demo model, but the distance is 100-ish kilometers per way :-/

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 10:16:37 pm
content: I think any of the listed choices would fare quiet well. Due to the amount of money you're spending, I would not advise the DS1074Z, as the other scopes are significantly better. The Hameg however, will be built like a brick dunny.

author: varesa
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 11:46:09 pm
content: Quote from: echen1024 on May 14, 2014, 10:16:37 pmThe rigol does not really compete in the same category feature-wise or price-wise. It is kind of an "fallback", if I find out that I don't have enough money for a "good enough to spend lots of money on" scope (seems to be near 2k€ min on my scale), I could get a "temporary" one for 400€ (local price for Rigol DS1074Z).

author: varesa
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 12:50:51 pm
content: Okay, my long hard decision has come to an end.I really like what the Siglent might become when the firmware matures a bit, but I need an oscilloscope now to be used in a competition, which is not exactly the right place for finding software bugs/issues. I ended up buying a Hameg HMO2024 from the bargain shop (http://www.hameg.com/433.0.html?&L=0). "Demo unit, as new" for about 1500€ (note: price is without vat, forgot that altogether)

author: larry42
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 11:07:48 pm
content: I have the HMO1524. I find certain operations (eg changing time base and vertical channel settings) to be annoyingly slow. Apart from that the scope is very low noise, both in terms of channels but also in terms of acoustic. Has some nice features that the agilent units lack and a very well implemented FFT mode.Sent from my One S using Tapatalk