I think the Linux-UNIX debate can be put to rest for good. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 04:35:13 am
content: A Chinese vendor, Inspur, took their rebadged Red Hat Enterprise Linux for amd64 with GNU userland and certified it under UNIX 03. This to me means an end to the "is Linux UNIX or just UNIX-like" debate: LinuxisUNIX in both technical and licensing terms, at least when paired with GNU userland tools and when running on amd64 processors.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 05:22:46 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 02, 2018, 04:50:23 amThis also means that for any Linux distribution as long as the finances are sorted out (for example if that $1 nominal fee offer is being extended again or if the backing company is willing to spend the money) it would be fairly trivial to get certified again.Also Huawei certified their also Linux based EulerOS, which seemed like a rebadged CentOS.Quote from: blueskull on November 02, 2018, 04:50:23 amI think Microsoft has admitted defeat when Windows 10 started carrying a Linux compatibility layer in its kernel. And macOS on amd64 has always been UNIX certified since 10.5

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 05:36:55 am
content: It means that particular configurations of Linux are entitled to call themselves Unix. Nothing more.Technically it does not mean that all Linux's are Unix. Many of them are not compliant.Legally, everyone else is in violation of trademark law if they call themselves Unix without permission.Legally, the Linux trademark is also owned by Linus himself, but since licensing is free for the asking, it's not much of an issue.So while that particular war will never end, the Linux brand is so much easier to use that it has won the popularity wars. Unix is sort of a history lesson for most new users, if they're aware of it at all. And most of the old users, like myself, can live with that.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 06:56:39 am
content: All certified Unixes today are reimplementations of the original Unix. So even Unix is "Unix-like".

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 08:01:54 am
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 02, 2018, 06:56:39 amThere are some exceptions:* SCO UnixWare is the mainline UNIX.* Solaris and HP-UX forked off UNIX System V Release 4.* IBM AIX forked off UNIX System V Release 3.* macOS is the oddball here: a good chunk of macOS kernel and userland code comes from FreeBSD (the two projects still swap code frequently to this day,) itself a fork of the original BSD, which grew out of AT&T Research UNIX despite having AT&T code eventually removed in that legal battle.As of the UNIX-like OS being actively maintained now, Minix, Linux and GNU Hurd are the three that has zero connection to the original Research UNIX project.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 11:05:51 am
content: Jeezus, Stallman will be pissed.Suddenly GNU *is* Unix. The recursive wankronim no longer works.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 11:55:50 am
content: Quote from: BradC on November 02, 2018, 11:05:51 amBoth GNU and Linux kernel aimed for SUS compatibility, and now someone decided to put an official stamp on it.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 06:15:51 pm
content: Quote from: technix on November 02, 2018, 08:01:54 amDo you believe that AIX, HP-UX and SCO still retain code from the Unix version which they forked?I'd be surprised if they did after all these years.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 06:44:51 pm
content: There is original code from original unices in there. It's mainly in the userland though. Awk here in Illumos for example:https://github.com/illumos/illumos-gate/blob/master/usr/src/cmd/awk/main.cI'm surprised it past cert. Did they have to frig some of the GNU tools configs because a lot of them require flags to make them behave sensibly?Edit: this is my favourite:https://github.com/illumos/illumos-gate/blob/master/usr/src/cmd/dc/dc.c(rpn calculator - look no math.h !)

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 07:49:44 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 02, 2018, 06:15:51 pmSCO's code is by definition mainline UNIX so whatever code that is in there is the original UNIX code. As of AIX, HP-UX and Solaris, I do see the original AT&T code slowly being replaced during the years of independent development, but that does not invalidate the fact that those OS are descendents of original AT&T UNIX. Ditto anything based on BSD.Quote from: bd139 on November 02, 2018, 06:44:51 pmLikely they have to patch them, but as long as they are GPL compliant they should have released their patched source code. Now if GNU want to make certification of other GNU-based OS easier they can just mainline those patches, since they should be architecture-independent.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 09:23:49 pm
content: GNU projects have long been on the crack pipe in that department. I doubt they'd take the patches. It took me 10 years to get a fucking bug fix patch accepted for GNU bison.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 09:47:16 pm
content: Quote from: technix on November 02, 2018, 07:49:44 pmYeah. By definition. But what I mean is, do you think that after all these years the present code resembles the original, when UNIX was still owned by Bell Labs?I doubt it. In that case the Unix we have today would in practice be a reimplementation of itself. No matter if it has been slowly upgraded until the present form or written from ground up to behave like it, as is the case with Linux.My point is, Linux IS Unix because it looks like Unix and smells like Unix, just like any other Unix.I was there when Dennis Ritchie said the following:I don’t really distinguish between Linux and things that are more or less direct descendants of Unix. I think they’re all the same at some level. Often, people ask me, "Do you feel jealous about Linux being the big thing." And the answer is no, for the same reason. I think they’re the same.Linux Magazine: The Guru (15 June 2001).To me this debate is settled long ago.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 10:15:03 pm
content: The only thing that will happen is that people will become even more pedantic on the issue.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 11:28:24 pm
content: If it doesn't have STREAMS it isn't Unix.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 11:45:42 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 02, 2018, 04:50:23 amThey are both horrible. Windows has gone from a stable, functional platform to a complete joke. I have no idea who Microsoft are trying to mimic, but they have failed miserably.Sure Windows 10 has Linux compatibility but for every one thing it does well, there are 10 others it sucks at. Finally Windows can go in the bin along with Mac OS.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2018, 12:09:40 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 02, 2018, 11:45:42 pmAt least for my purposes there are two things that macOS does correctly while neither Linux nor Windows 10 does so: bootable tiered storage and system-level native HiDPI.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2018, 09:18:12 am
content: Both are just a gateway to a remote Unix system for me. I prefer the keyboard layout on windows machines though.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2018, 09:49:28 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 03, 2018, 09:18:12 amI prefer the macOS style though, reserving the Control key to the Terminal while use Command (Super/Win) key for most of the keyboard shortcuts. Cutting and pasting is consistent between terminal windows and other apps, while UNIX keyboard shortcuts still work as-is.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2018, 09:55:01 am
content: UK Apple keyboard layout is vastly different to other UK ones which kills me. I haven’t used my MBP for months. Probably should sell it.I use putty and mouse for cut and paste. Like on Solaris

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2018, 10:08:48 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 03, 2018, 09:55:01 amI have two US keyboard non-Retina MBP and a separate US Apple USB Keyboard. When I am in the coding flow my hands rarely leaves the keyboard.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2018, 05:39:57 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 02, 2018, 11:45:42 pmI had very little exposure to the modern MacOS until I got a job that issued me a Macbook. Honestly I have to say the OS is very nice, it's rock solid, stable, slick and polished. I have not had to reboot it for updates in more than 2 months, in that time it has not crashed once nor gotten sluggish. Under that polished GUI it has a real Unix command line console.I would seriously consider buying a Mac as my next machine *except* for some major deal breakers. The RAM and SSD are soldered to the motherboard, the battery is not (easily) user replaceable, the trackpad is absurdly huge, at least 4 times the size it should be and gets in the way, and instead of real function keys it has a gimmicky OLED touch bar which while nice for adjusting screen brightness and sound volume is otherwise useless. I could live with that except the Esc key is also on the touch bar which goes to sleep when there hasn't been any user input for a while. Oh and the ONLY expansion is USB-C ports so for my personal use cases I'd have to carry around a hub and a bunch of dongles, no thanks.It is exceptionally well made, the screen is beautiful and the overall fit & finish is better than any laptop I've used, hands down. Unfortunately it is just ruined by the design decisions I mention above, although as a work laptop that I don't pay for and have no need to connect external devices, it's quite nice. Between what Microsoft has done to Windows and what Apple has done to the Macbook lineup, I'm really not sure where to go for my next PC, it may have to be Linux but that doesn't save me from stupid hardware trends like oversized clickpads with no physical buttons and stupid touch screens that get covered in fingerprints.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 03, 2018, 10:14:45 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 03, 2018, 05:39:57 pmI must admit that Mac OS is a highly polished operating system. If it were a choice between Windows 10 and Mac OS, I think I'd take the Apple product. Never would I have said that 5 years ago. I have always been a "Wintel" guy. However in the last 6-12 months, I've switched exclusively to using Linux at home.My biggest gripes with Apple is with their hardware.In my experience their laptops aren't overly robust and in some cases poorly designed namely in the use of inadequate components, flimsy Aluminium parts and poor thermal design. You only need to look as far asLouis Rossmann's videosto get an idea of how bad these products really are.As you've mentioned their upgradability is basically non-existent. I can understand soldering disks and memory to boards in tablet computers, but not laptops. "Keeping the user out" has been Apple's attitude for a long time. They don't want you tinkering with your own machine.Finally the price is ludicrous for what you get. Not long ago I priced up a top-spec Macbook Pro compared to a similar Lenovo ThinkPad (and even then the Lenovo still had further upgrade options available). Not only was the Lenovo cheaper, but it performed better, had more options and I/O, longer battery life and you could upgrade it yourself.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 12:03:34 am
content: Prior to the soldered components and complete lack of internal upgradeability, the price was not as unreasonable as it looks at a glance. A good friend of mine has a Macbook Pro he bought new in I think 2007 and he's still using it. The RAM has been maxed out, the hard drive has been upgraded several times, and the motherboard did fail once in 2015 at which point he paid someone (Maybe Louis, I don't know) to repair it and it's been fine since. Amortized over the 11 years he's been using the thing, the price is really pretty reasonable. It has held up well too, the aluminum body still looks like new save for a few scuffs, the hinges on the screen still work properly, the keyboard and touchpad are still functional. I can't speak for the quality of the newer ones yet but at least for a while they were making very well built stuff.He's also in the boat of not knowing what his next machine will be. He's heavily invested in the Apple ecosystem but the soldered hard drive (on a "Pro" system no less, what a joke) is a deal breaker for him too.It's pretty clear though that Apple is heavily focused on one specific type of customer, those who are devoted fans who have enough money that they can afford to throw it away and buy a new one every couple years so the lack of an upgrade path is a non-issue for them. It's a shame really. Neither them nor Microsoft caters to me.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 02:12:31 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 03, 2018, 10:14:45 pmQuote from: james_s on November 03, 2018, 05:39:57 pmYou can still buy mid-2012 15-inch non-Retina MacBook Pro this day on the used market. This model is not affected by the bad graphics card issue. This model is user upgradeable to up to 16GB RAM and up to two SATA hard disk drives if you sacrifice the optical drive - in fact it is the last fully user upgradeable model.Or you can just Hackintosh.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 02:40:45 am
content: A mid-2012 laptop is not a solution for me going forward, that's several years older than the laptop I already have so by the time I need a new laptop that won't exactly be an upgrade. Also the retina screen is a very appealing aspect of the Macs.Realistically I'll probably end up on Linux exclusively at some point, and just hope that somebody is making suitable hardware at the time.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 03:50:11 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 04, 2018, 02:40:45 amWith a SSD and maxed out RAM, those Ivy Bridge machines are still good performers, thanks to Intel not pushing for performance as of recently.Also that laptop is the only MacBook capable of 4TB internal storage in the form of a Fusion Drive with 2TB SATA SSD and 2TB SATA HDD.Ditto the late 2009 Mac Pro tower, with upgrades like a dual Nehalem Xeon X5690, RX 580 graphics card, 48GB RAM and NVMe SSD in PCIe slot.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 04:14:49 am
content: Sure but I already have a core i7 laptop, I don't plan on replacing my current machine until it fails which hopefully will not be for 5-10 years. A 2012 Macbook is not going to be a viable upgrade in 2025, if its not obsolete by then, it won't be easy to find one that isn't used up and worn out.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 04:31:20 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 04, 2018, 04:14:49 amThat upgraded 2009 Mac Pro tower is the third most powerful Mac possible now, only behind the maxed out 2017 iMac Pro and maxed out 2013 Mac Pro, and cost only half as much or less.And once again, as long as Apple don’t start shipping Macs with ARM processor, there is always the option of going Hackintosh if you want to use macOS without the hardware lockdown.I don’t have a newer laptop - my latest one is an early 2012 13-inch i5-3210M MacBook Pro with 8GB RAM and 1TB SSD. And my newest machine overall is a Hackintosh with Xeon E3-1231v3 (think i7-4770 without iGPU,) 32GB RAM and GTX 1063.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 04:39:55 am
content: You're missing the point, if things evolve to the point where I need a new computer in the future, let's say the year 2025, you are suggesting I walk into a store and buy a new 2012 Macbook which will at that point be 13 years old? And that is assuming that I had to buy a new computer because my laptop that was top of the line in 2015 is obsolete so I'm to replace it with one that's even older?Hackintosh is a possible option today, but who knows what hardware MacOS will require in the future? I'm certainly not going to invest in an ecosystem hinged on me being able to find future hardware that will run a version of the OS that may or may not be something I like by then, and I'd miss out on the slick design of the hardware that makes the Macs appealing in the first place, or did.The whole point is I don't like where both Windows and Mac are headed, which is worrying because hardware trends follow either Windows or Mac.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 04:50:19 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 04, 2018, 04:39:55 amTechnology moves fast, but Moore’s Law has slowed down quite a bit, there is no point predicting what would be going on in 2025 now, as things will change in the following 7 years.For example, should the Moore law come to an end, it is possible for that 2012 laptop to be still viable 12 years after its release.I still have my first laptop ever, a 2004 Dell Latitude D620. Sure it needed a new CPU and lacked AHCI, but after the upgrades to Core 2 Duo T7400, 3GB RAM and a SSD it is still viable now with 64-bit Windows 10.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 09:29:31 am
content: Moore’s law just allowed us to write shittier software and runtimes and get away with it.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 10:07:06 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 04, 2018, 09:29:31 am...thereby concealing the embarrassing fact that we don't know how to write non-shitty software, at least not of significant complexity.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 10:11:05 am
content: Oh we do. It’s just far easier to import 1000 libraries than think about it for a minute.I’m currently working on an enterprise app where just the binary payload is 212mb. Has 7 domain concerns in it so it’s pretty simple too

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 10:11:35 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 04, 2018, 02:40:45 amI recently bought myself a Dell XPS 13 that comes with Ubuntu preinstalled.After switching it on and some testing if all the hardware worked correctly, I wiped the diskand installed OpenSUSE Leap 15 with Plasma desktop. No hassle with drivers or settings.Everything was detected and setup correctly including WiFi and touchpad. It's the first notebook I like.It performs very well and is lightning fast.Maybe 13" is a bit small for most people but I like it because I'll use it only for travelling.I can recommend this notebook, specially with Linux.