OutRunner: The World's First RC Running Robot - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: robotix3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 02:45:19 am
content: OutRunner is a bipedal emulator capable of running up to 20 mph.https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/138364285/outrunner-the-worlds-most-advanced-running-robotEdit:Please be aware that we say running robot because the average consumer has no idea what a "Passively Stable Bipedal Emulator" is. It has a flight phase and only one foot is touching the ground at a time.I will continue to answer questions as long as they are reasonable andsomewhatrespectful.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 03:33:16 am
content: Simple questions :- Better energy efficiency than wheeled robot in term moving a bot ?- Move through rough terrain ? How rough compared to again "big" wheeled or tank like robot ? No video on it runs at say flat grass field.- Launching from stand still, will it still need an assistance ? or stopping, can it stand still when stopped ?Its fine just for pure fun, but I'm thinking hard for the practical purpose in real life with this "legged" design.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 04:34:15 am
content: What a pointless toy. I can't even think of anything it would be good for. And calling it a robot is a bit of a stretch.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 03:32:04 pm
content: those arent legs, those are low polygon count wheels

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 03:44:08 pm
content: I'm glad I'm not the only one that thoughtThe "legs" on that machine look as though they have more in common with the front forks on a motorbike than they do with anything that might be described as able to "run".No articulation == not a leg, unless you're talking about a chair or table, neither of which qualifies as a robot.In what way is this contraption "more advanced" than, say, Asimo or BigDog?It what way is it even comparable?And where on earth does all that money actually go? An extra $500,000 just to add a software "turbo" feature? Really? I'll do it for half that.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 04:36:24 pm
content: QuoteNot clear how 6 spokes on each side == bipedal

author: robotix3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 04:54:55 pm
content: Cool, I was expecting worse! First thing this robotemulates running, it is the most simplified running can get. It has a flight phase. It steers by moving its center of mass side to side. Each spoke is spring loaded.QuoteImagine adding an infinite amount of legs to the OutRunner, it eventually becomes a wheel. A wheel is a little more efficient than our robot but lacks the passive recovery abilities and terrain robustness.QuoteOur robot has a flight phase, wheels do not.QuoteThis is one of the design improvement we are testing right now. As you can see in the video, our current (best) method is launching with a pendulum. The method we choose for production has not be chosen yet. The robot needs an initial velocity (it can't "walk") to stay stable. As for stopping, we have a plan for that too, but once again still testing the best way for a consumer device.QuoteThere was no initial application, just researching high efficient, passively stable, high speed robotics. There are many applicationsQuoteIt is more complex than it looks, try building one if you think it is easy.QuoteNot technically wheels.QuoteThe legs are spring loaded.QuoteAdvanced in its theory and operation, its a new concept in robotics.QuoteOur robot is faster, more efficient, more robust, and cheaper.QuoteIf you have ever brought a product to market you would know that $150,000 is just enough tomaybebreak even after the costs on molds etc. People are not just donating, they are getting a product, we are barely making anything on each sell.The "turbo" feature is more complex than dialing down the max speed and having a button to temporally increase the speed. We are doing hardware modifications as well.QuoteBidpedalemulator. Only one foot on the ground at any given time, and a flight phase. The number of spokes is actually irrelevant, just changes the dynamics of the system. We have found that 6 is a good number but have also done 4,8, and 12 legs. The Performance version will have the ability to add and take away legs.

author: tjb1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 05:20:23 pm
content: I think Boston Dynamics would say otherwise that this is the most advanced...

author: robotix3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 05:24:53 pm
content: QuoteYes, the WildCat and Cheetah robots are awesome and a million times more advanced. But you can't buy one.You can buy one of these though.

author: tjb1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 06:13:55 pm
content: Quote from: robotix3 on May 09, 2014, 05:24:53 pmMoney talks but your robot is most certainly not the world's most advanced.

author: robotix3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 06:46:20 pm
content: Okay forum members, free tee-shirt is available to the person that gives the best title for our KickStarter

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 08:46:49 pm
content: I believe the definition of running is that all legs must be off the ground for a period of time - Asimo is airborne for 0.6 seconds when it runs.That is why the walking races you see look so strained - they must have one foot in contact with the ground at all times giving them a rather forced gait.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 08:54:42 pm
content: Quote from: robotix3No, sorry don't buy it.Bipedal == two legs (well, literally two feet) with two or three articulated joints (hip/knee/ankle) and a recognisably human gait.Not to say that you don't have something interesting and useful but bipedal it ain't, not even if you weasel out by sticking the word emulator in there.

author: robotix3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 09:04:07 pm
content: QuoteAnd our robot also has a flight phase, it is seen clearly in the video.QuoteA biped means to have two-feet, nothing to do with hips, knees, or ankles. It has nothing to do with humans either.http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bipedQuoteThis robot was designed by taking running and putting it into it's most simple form. This may anger people (I don't know why people care so much), but it does indeed fit the description of a bipedal robot. We use "bipedal emulator" because we realize this could be controversial.Anyways, I was hoping for some electronics/technical questions rather than philosophical.Can't say I didn't see it coming though.This is a great product and we want to be as open about it as we can. This is a spin-off from a research lab and our first goal is to improve the field of robotics.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 09:26:15 pm
content: QuoteI hate to spilt hairs but you appear to have 12.QuoteOK, fair(ish) point.However what most people recognise as a bipedal gait is not what you have. You might argue that you have innovatively solved the problem of having to have some sort of "hip" joint to swing the non-load bearing leg forward to take the next stride by having another "leg" in place to take said stride but I remain unconvinced that really qualifies it to be bipedal according to the opinion of the archetypal "man on the Clapam omnibus"A bipedal gait pretty much does require a hip joint for the reason stated above, that means it also works a lot better with a knee joint because otherwise you need to swing the non load bearing leg wide to get clearance to avoid hitting the floor so it's much easier with a knee to be able to effectively shorten the leg as it is swung forward. Ankles just help keep things efficient by acting as springs.Yes, there are other types of bipedal gait - birds tend to hop quite a bit and some reptiles swing the non load bearing side by pretty much rotating the whole of their bodies with relatively fixed hips and knees (helps that their legs stick out sideways more) but, again, you aren't emulating that either.Question: Can your robot stand on two "feet" without moving?

author: quantumvolt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 10:35:20 pm
content: Quote from: robotix3 on May 09, 2014, 09:04:07 pmWhy should we ask techical questions? Your device is imo totally uninteresting.I enjoy and am impressed by the knowledge displayed in this thread. You (or your partner) claims a PhD. in the KS presentation. I can see in your defensive narrowly defined language that you have some knowledge. But so do we - some of us are even scientific mathematicians/physicists.The major flaw - bright as the sun on a clear day - is your perception of running. In the living world there are no bodies with bearing-attached rotating protuberances. All creatures must - using parts of their bodies to push the rest of their body forward - eventually 'recollect' the movement-generating parts. Your rotation-based device is not running - it carries a degenerated bearing-attached wheel that supplies a new 'foot' in stead of re-using the 'old' one.Running ...

author: robotix3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 12:21:36 am
content: 6 feet actually, never said it had 2 feet. That's why it's a bipedemulator, it operates like a biped instead of a quadruped, hexapod, etc. It definitely is running though. Unless you want to argue it is rolling, which is very easy to counter.QuoteNot yet, we talk about that in the KickStarter. It will in a few weeks. It takes money to finish development.QuoteI'm sorry you feel that wayQuoteEmulated running, to consumers who are not usually scientist and engineers, it's much easier to say a running robot than a "Passively Stable Bipedal Emulator". I'm sure if we called it that no one would buy it, eh?

author: quantumvolt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 01:19:58 am
content: Well - running or rolling on geared wheels or whatever is just rhetorics.However, if the two leg-devices initially are in angular phase, the unit should be able to stand on four legs. When motion starts - it will 'roll' on successive pairs of legs. Then, when the 'head/body' has sufficient forward momentum, it will 'jump' on two and two legs. Then, when adjusting the phase of the legs (put one foot in front of the other), it will do the 'running flight' under the forces of gravity and the upward pushing legs. So you might like to explain why it cannot start autonomously. Needing other stuff to start is imo a downer.But - and this is imo important - it can fall. Why don't make the thing as a ball with protruding pins (like a sea mine). Having a horisontally leveled core with mass, force, gyro, compass (,GPS) and other (sensors&tools) stuff inside will (by default construction) make it fall-proof and able to 'run/roll' in all directions in the (warped) plane.In your video I saw the children chasing it. Well - since it is almost linear in it's path (very large swing radius is needed to avoid it falling from centripetal force), even a big toddler will be able to predict it's position in the near future. You want a game for makers, hackers and children? Go 'open', and give your gadget a basic 'people and dogs' avoidance algorithm (sensors unlimited). When in the market make contests on which hacked/augmented 'robot' lasts the longest without be 'catched' by the mob ...Good luck whatever you choose.

author: robotix3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 01:46:43 am
content: I guess you haven't read the whole KickStarter.QuoteWe explain how the robot runs in the KickStarter. Also, this was not built just as is, this robot was simulated and every feature was worked out to mimic real running before we built anything physical. We have a great understanding of the system.One of the ways we are working on allows no extra hardware for the robot to start and stop.QuoteThe Performace version includes a 6 DOF IMU and we are offereing other sensors (as well as GPS) for upgrades. We are working on the fall-proof thing (same mechanism as start and stop).QuoteThe Performance version will allow for custom programs and most of the hardware and softwareshouldbe open. I am always trying to make sure our products are hacker/maker friendly, but this is a spin-off so the original company has some say.I can promise though that adding things such as an avoidance or follow algorithm will be very possible. The Performance version will most likely contain a cloned Beagle Bone Black and be fully Open, the Core version is just a radio controlled "toy" (just a basic microcontroller), though you will be able to add a upgrade board that allows for sensor modules and programmability.We are trying many different ways of configuring both robots and are open for everyone's opinions.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 03:01:32 am
content: So if I put a robot on top of this RC car, can I enter the competition?https://localmotors.com/shop/100mph-rc-car-traxxas-xo-1/

author: robotix3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 04:00:45 am
content: QuoteLol, without major modifications I think not. The race is supposed to show that we want competition and openness in running robotics to quickly advance the new field. So as long as the robot has a flight phase I'm sure it's acceptable.We just added a new video to our KickStarter, it is found in the "Updates" section. It illustrates our robot transferring from asphalt to grass while running. Another video coming soon is our robot running on rough gravel. And more to come.

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 12:39:20 am
content: I don't think it's that terrible of an idea, mechanically pp. It takes a lot less weight than a full size wheel of that same diameter and probably does better on rocky terrain (if the rods don't slip).Perhaps asking the opinion of a bunch of EEs and electronics enthusiasts on a project that lies mostly in the field of mechanical engineering isn't... the smartest idea.

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 07:21:54 pm
content: Blahblahblah... most advanced in the world... blahblahblah... to change the status quo... blahblablah, but you don't answer the most important question: what about VERTICAL INTEGRATION?Perhaps it would make really cute child's toy if it wouldn't for you guys being so pompous and full of yourselves to the point of being repulsive.

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 07:40:01 pm
content: I would agree that they're being pretty pompous, but isn't that standard for a Kickstarter project?

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 07:42:28 pm
content: Quote from: scientist on May 12, 2014, 07:40:01 pmDunno. I know it made my brain hurt, though.EDIT:I've just re-watched markhen's / Innavatus's tiq probe kickstarter video. It proves you can summarize your idea in a balanced, no-nonsense, factual, if somewhat less flashy way while still being confident in your product.

author: PointyOintment
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2014, 07:07:14 am
content: Quote from: quantumvolt on May 09, 2014, 10:35:20 pmWikipedia:Quote

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2014, 07:18:08 am
content: QuoteAnd most of us have plenty of those to spare

author: quantumvolt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2014, 08:21:51 am
content: Quote from: PointyOintment on May 16, 2014, 07:07:14 amAccording tohttp://cronodon.com/BioTech/Bacteria_motility.htmlit is a bushing-attached device("The L and P rings act as a bushing"). If so, it does not seem to bebearing-attached.Anything else pedantic you wanna add ?

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2014, 09:09:18 am
content: Quote from: scientist on May 12, 2014, 12:39:20 amThe limiting case of this design would appear to be a spoked wheel fitted with a pneumatic tyre.If each leg were actively controlled, in order to govern and limit its rate of extension and the forces involved, then I might see some value in the project. Active suspension is an area worthy of research, and something interesting and worthwhile might come out of it. It might also be reasonable justification for doing away with a tried-and-tested sprung element that has fixed compressibility - ie. the tyre.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 06:21:14 pm
content: My first thought was "What's the difference between this and a wheel with very few spokes?"I can't consider this a "running" robot. As someone mentioned above, if they simply put wheels with 3-4 spokes on a normal RC car it could "run" faster.I'm sure this was hard to build, but it'd probably be a heck of a lot more efficient if you simply put lightweight wheels on it.