Oscilloscope for robotics with Arduino and Raspberrie Pi  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Jens Schuetz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 14, 2023, 07:53:29 pm
content: Hi HEEV community,My kids and me got into robotics a while back and I think it is time to get an oscilloscope.Now the question which was probably asked a million times already. Which one to get?The machines seem to have come a long way and cheaper since our professors let us play with them, very carefully after we made one go up in smoke, many moons ago.I want to use it mainly for two purposes (1) to troubleshoot <12V circuits and analog and digital components for our underwater rovers for example to eliminate sources of electrical noise (bad shielding, grounding, motors etc) (2) to visualize signals to help the kids understand what is happening where (input and output of Arduinos, ESCs etc.)I appreciate any help with figuring out what kind of oscilloscope could be suitable for us.Thank you.

author: JustMeHere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2023, 08:40:36 pm
content: Fully unlocked Rigol 1054z. They are the same price as the base model from Rigol. The popularity of this scope will help with the learning curve.

author: Adrian_Arg.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2023, 09:10:19 pm
content: For my hobby, which is arduino and small electronic projects, I use rigol ds1054z unlocked, and it works great

author: barshatriplee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2023, 02:35:59 pm
content: The Owon HDS1021M-N handheld digital storage oscilloscope is good I think.By the way, you need not only a good oscilloscope. But also some other necessary tools for embedded system engineering. Here is a list that you can check:https://www.theengineeringprojects.com/2016/11/necessary-embedded-tools.html

author: Eraldo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2023, 03:25:17 pm
content: Quote from: Jens Schuetz on May 14, 2023, 07:53:29 pmNow I'm curious how you did that. Did you hook it up to mains? Or did you burn the inputs by plugging in a higher than allowed voltage.As for the oscilloscope it always comes down to price versus the features you need. A 2 channel rigol would be sufficient. Where i am you can find a rigol DS1102Z-E for about 300€ lower than that and the quality starts to drop. Another option is buying an analog scope for cheap but they are not suitable for one time events (they are only good for repetitive signals).I have used both at school and i would definetly go digital, especially with applications like arduino.You just go up in price from here (going 4 channel, higher bandwith and sampling rate, higer resolution etc)

author: Jens Schuetz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 15, 2023, 04:01:46 pm
content: Thank you JustMeHere and Adrian,That was on of the oscilloscopes I was looking at already. Would it be worth it to get something with 100MHz or is the 50MHz something most people wouldn't exhaust anyways?

author: Jens Schuetz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 15, 2023, 04:21:23 pm
content: Thank you Barshatriplee,The Owon had a great form factor. Could carry it wherever the circuit is and not have to bring the device to the oscilloscope. It would be useful when experimenting in the field. It's just that one channel is a bit limiting when wanting to look at multiple signals at the same time. Not something which is needed often but definitely something we would do when looking at ESCs for example. Now if money were no issue, getting both would be best.I like th elist. It's a good starting point.

author: Jens Schuetz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 15, 2023, 04:30:03 pm
content: Hi Eraldo, It has been 20+ years. I only remember that my buddies wanted to measure the discharge of a couple of capacitors. Maybe they did it wrong or they did something else entirely and didn't tell us and our professor.Thank you for suggesting the DS1102Z-E Rigol, I hadn't seen this option before.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2023, 04:41:04 pm
content: There are MANY threads on this very topic and they can be found using the Search feature. If you want the long version, try CharlotteSwiss's epic thread. She buys the scope at Reply 150 and we start working through the User Manual over the next replies -https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/what-an-oscilloscope-recommended-for-a-woman-passionate-about-electronics/msg3100087/#msg3100087I wanted a realistic scope with reasonable bandwidth. At the time, the hot setup was the Rigol DS1054Z which I have and like.Today, I would buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E for the unlocked 200 MHz bandwidth (twice the Rigol's unlocked limit) but it wasn't available at the time.Then we can get into all the dozens of alternatives before we get to portable scopes (as in pocket sized).Dave has done reviews on these scopes.https://www.amazon.com/Siglent-SDS1104X-oscilloscope-channels-standard/dp/B0771N1ZF9https://www.amazon.com/Rigol-DS1054Z-Digital-Oscilloscopes-Bandwidth/dp/B012938E76I would only consider 4 channel scopes because that is what it takes to see and decode both sides of an SPI transaction which is the reason I bought the Rigol in the first place. Yes, I know a logic analyzer will do the job, I have several...

author: Jens Schuetz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 15, 2023, 04:58:34 pm
content: Hi rstofer, I just started reading it and am already hooked. Still many pages to read but wanted to say thank you for pointing me in a good direction.

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2023, 06:16:54 pm
content: Rigol DS1054z is $350 on Amazon USright now. That seems like a pretty good deal - it looks like everything on eBay is considerably more at the moment. An excellent first scope.There are 2 channel scopes that are in the same ballpark or less - some are even 200MHz. Personally, I'd go for the 4 channels over the 200MHz when starting out, but that's a personal needs call.There are other 4 channel scopes that might be less, but I think few will be similar quality. The Siglent SDS1104X-E is a great low end scope too, but runs about $100 more than the Rigol. As @JustMeHere mentioned the DS1054z is extremely popular so there will be no shortage of help and info on the Internet (similar for the SDS1104X-E).TheSiglent SDS1104X-U is $335 on Amazon US right now. I think it's similar in feature set to the DS1054z. I forget what is left out in comparison to the SDS1104X-E.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2023, 06:39:48 pm
content: rstofer is spot on, as usual. Probably the most important, unmentioned spec is price?? Does $350 vs $500 impact you? Is $350 too much? Some clarity here will help a lot fine tune recommendations.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2023, 08:25:54 pm
content: Quote from: Jens Schuetz on May 15, 2023, 04:01:46 pmWe don't want to go down the Fourier Series rathole again... Try this:https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/alternating-current/chpt-7/square-wave-signals/Basically, a 100 MHz scope might display decent approximation of a 10 MHz symmetric square wave. At most, the display would include up to the 9th harmonic but there are a bunch of Terms and Conditions when dealing with these series approximations.200 MHz (unlocked SDS1104X-E) is going to be a better display of higher frequencies than the 100 MHz (unlocked DS1054Z). Realistically, there are few uC signals on pins that are anywhere near 100 MHz. I would be surprised to see anything over 10 MHz except, perhaps, external RAM. There may be some high frequency stuff I haven't run into but they would be highly specialized and require equipment above the 'entry level'.

author: Jens Schuetz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 15, 2023, 09:18:13 pm
content: Thank you Old Printer.$350 is on the high end but doable. $500 is a bit too uncomfortable unless the experienced users like you say, I absolutely need it.For $350 I could get a used SDS1104X-E or a new DS1054Z.How easy will it be to figure out if the used SDS1104X-E has some defect in one of its many functions which I may came across only later, when it would be too late to return it?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2023, 10:25:44 pm
content: If you buy used, you have no warranty and little recourse if things aren't working. As to testing the hundreds of functions on a modern scope, good luck!That said, I did buy a used Tek 485 (350 MHz) for around $200 and lucked out. It works fine but it isn't in the same league with a modern DSO in terms of measurements and decoding (among other things). But it's fast!I look at the Siglent versus Rigol contest as one of future proofing. Sure the Rigol will get it done (today), it's the one I am using. But had the Siglent been available, I would have bought it. I don't know what I'm going to be doing in the future but I sure hope it doesn't necessitate a more capable scope.There are a lot of epic threads over in the Test Equipment forum for either scope. And Dave's Reviews (tear down and function). I suggest you watch them.https://youtu.be/Kay4Jk2DHuEhttps://www.eevblog.com/2015/01/15/eevblog-704-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-features-review/From the top page of this site, search the Videos->EVERY VIDEO and see what you find.There are other reviews on the Internet.

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2023, 10:49:36 pm
content: Quote from: Jens Schuetz on May 15, 2023, 09:18:13 pmThe SDS1104X-E has gone on sale recently for as low as $390. Depending on how important now vs later is, it might be worth a wait - though there's no guarantee that it'll go on sale again any time soon.Also keep in mind that used DS1054z's can hold value pretty well if they aren't damaged and all the probes are intact. So if you get one now and decide to move up later you have a good chance at getting a bit of your investment back (take a look at sold listings on eBay to get a sense)And here is Siglent'sComparison/Differences in SDS1000X-U and SDS1000X-E oscilloscope models(X-U is currently $335 on Amazon US)

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2023, 01:29:36 am
content: Quote from: Jens Schuetz on May 15, 2023, 04:58:34 pmCharlotte buys a 2 channel scope. I wanted 4 channels. It’s choice…

author: JustMeHere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2023, 03:14:40 am
content: Quote from: Jens Schuetz on May 15, 2023, 04:01:46 pm1054z unlocked is 100mhz. They are usually sold unlocked now. If not, it's easy to do, and Rigol doesn't seem to care.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2023, 04:34:08 am
content: This topic has been discussed to death and then some. Bottom line is look at Rigol and Siglent, there is or at least was a discount from Tequipment for eevblog members. Either one of these popular scopes will serve you well and I think you'll be happy with either one.

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2023, 06:14:11 am
content: I've never liked the look or style of the Rigol's, so I'd vote for some Siglent model in your price range, they have ones similar in price/performance. I'm very happy with my hacked Siglent 200MHz scope.On a side note, I bet some kids would have a hard time turning the knobs on some of the old CRT scopes.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2023, 06:33:39 am
content: Quote from: mwb1100 on May 15, 2023, 10:49:36 pmI've seen used ones sell for *more* than the cost of a brand new one from Tequipment several times, I don't know why but they do. I haven't looked at used Siglents to see if they hold their value as well but I'd imagine they are roughly on par in that regard.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2023, 12:43:49 pm
content: I bought the SDS1104X-E a few years ago for $500 because it was a newer design than the Rigol 1054Z and the $150 difference didn't matter to me. My first "scope" was the Analog Discovery 2 when the price was still around $250, a great deal because of all the other tools bundled inside. Unfortunately Digilent has raised the price over the last 7 years or so to $400 so it is harder to recommend. If you can grab a good used one in the $200 range that would be a good deal unless you have a signal generator and a logic analyzer already. General opinion is the 1054Z is good and the 1104X-E is a bit better depending on budget. Both are solid machines, well proven in the basics.

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2023, 03:33:33 pm
content: Quote from: Old Printer on May 16, 2023, 12:43:49 pmDigilent had them on sale in Dec 2022 for $160. No idea if that deal will ever show up again. Looks like they've generally been selling for under $200 on eBay.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2023, 03:42:54 pm
content: I see a used SDS1104X-E on eBay for about $330 and a new one on Amazon for about $500. The total cost to own the scope for some unknown number of years is just $170 (buy for $500, sell for $330). Yes, I realize that cash flow is an issue but the depreciation isn't all that bad and it could sell for a good deal more than $330.I would avoid the X-U (versus X-E) debacle. It seems Siglent took out some of the smart features and discounted the price. There isn't a lot of love for the -U variant.Like Old Printer, I am a huge fan of the Digilent Analog Discovery 2 (my favorite tool) and I used to tout it at every opportunity. It's harder to do at the new and improved (higher) price. Part of the reason for enjoying it is the fully differential scope inputs.Consider a simple RC low pass filter with a sine wave going into the resistor and the resistor in series with a capacitor to ground. I want the voltage drop across the resistor (measures the current flow through the capacitor) and neither end is grounded. I can simply wire an AD2 differential channel across the resistor and another channel across the capacitor (to measure capacitor voltage) and see the phase shift and prove "ELI the ICE man" I leads E in a C (capacitor). You would expect the current through the capacitor (as measured by the voltage drop across the resistor) to lead the voltage across the capacitor by exactly 90 degrees. This is trivial to show with the AD2 and a good deal more difficult with a standard scope without a differential (or current) probe.Alas, I fear the AD2 is now relegated to EE students and that is Digilent's focus. These things were truly scarce during the pandemic where each student set up his own EE lab.Compared to tuition, the AD2 cost is just pocket change.

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2023, 08:23:28 pm
content: Jens, yes I would say that an oscilloscope is one of the most crucial tools for any electronics. You aren't likely to be getting anywhere near the limits of a typical o-scope's capabilities with robotics type uses, but no tool other than an oscilloscope can really do what you need.As you mention circuits up to 12V I'd definitely avoid cheap USB oscilloscopes, not sure if the isolation could always be trusted to protect 5V computer USB ports from an accident at the probes. I'd also recommend against USB as it is nice to have a standalone oscilloscope that doesn;t need you to turn on and boot up a PC so as to use it.I use a Tektronix TBS 1052 series type, mainly marketed for bulk selling to education but some sellers sell to normal addresses too. Not the best value for performance really, 1GS/s digital internals but inputs only rated for up to 50MHz and only two inputs, but does have an interface virtully identical to what I had been used to both in my university time and in jobs. For the types of things one does in robotics this performance is adequate.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2023, 12:48:42 am
content: It's funny hearing a scope described as one of the most crucial tools. They are very, very nice to have for sure, but until maybe 30 years ago an oscilloscope was an expensive luxury that only the most serious hobbyists had, and many that did had some low end 5-10MHz CRO like the ones sold by Heathkit, Eico, Leader and such.How things have changed, now almost anyone can afford an oscilloscope that runs circles around the scopes I was drooling over when I was a kid. I don't remember exactly what I paid for my Tek 465B back in 2000 but it was the first real scope I owned and it was so exciting to finally have one.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2023, 07:15:18 am
content: While working I always used Tektronix or an occasional HP scope. Now I am retired and have to pay myself so those are no longer an option.About a year or so ago I purchased a Hantek two channel, 150 MHz scope which has a built in waveform generator. It was around $250 USD. Only issue was the included probes were only 100 MHz rated, so I had to buy two additional, 150 MHz probes. But it looks like they are shipping better ones now.It is easy to use and I really like it.https://www.amazon.com/Hantek-DSO2D15-Oscilloscope-Waveform-Generator/dp/B0BFQY1BHD/ref=sr_1_4?hvadid=616863297099&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9027887&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=15561156361282571306&hvtargid=kwd-25782585212&hydadcr=24665_13611781&keywords=hantek+dso&qid=1684306649&sr=8-4&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.ac2169a1-b668-44b9-8bd0-5ec63b24bcb5I have an older, USB scope that I can use when I really need more channels. It has two regular channels (100 MHz and 10 bit resolution) and another 16 digital channels (one bit resolution).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2023, 08:04:43 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on May 16, 2023, 03:42:54 pmNor hate, as it fills a price point in their range however we sell several SDS1104X-E to each SDS1104X-U due mostly to the much better feature set.SDS1104X-U is a much trimmed down design with a max 100 MHz BW unlike the X-E models which are a 200 MHz design. X-U also lacks many of the features of X-E but it still offers 4 channels and a slightly better feature set than the near equivalent Rigol.Attached is the X-E/X-U comparison sheet as prepared by member rf-loop.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2023, 02:42:27 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 17, 2023, 12:48:42 amIt started to change at the hobby level back around '72 when microprocessors were first introduced (Intel 8008) to the hobby world and everything suddenly went digital. We could have realistic computers at home. The hobby expanded greatly from, essentially, just audio and ham radio, to wherever we are today. The Altair 8800 changed my world in '76 when I was in grad school. For our engineering seminar class we studied all of the offerings, one by one. Everything seemed to revolve around timing diagrams and that drove the need for some kind of scope.I built my first scope around '58 from plans in the ARRL Handbook. It wasn't much but it worked. Things have changed considerably over the past 65 years...So much for nostalgia, today I want Single Shot mode along with decoding and measurements. And, yes, I want an Auto button!Try reading through a User Manual, look at the features:https://siglentna.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/UserManual/SDS1000X&Xplus_UserManual_UM0101X-E02A.pdfDon't try to understand the details without actually having the scope. Just look at the features! This scope does everything but eat.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2023, 07:03:03 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on May 17, 2023, 02:42:27 pmYou must have been much more well off than the people I knew. I grew up in the 80s and a scope was far outside of what I could afford and I didn't know anyone that had a decent one. I finally got a Tek 531A at a garage sale that served me pretty well, but it was huge and heavy and doubled as a heater. The first computer my family owned was an IBM 5150 PC and it cost my dad a fortune, until the late 80s I only knew one other person that had a computer at home and it was a C64.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2023, 08:35:17 pm
content: I don't remember what the ARRL variant cost but it wasn't a lot. The CRT and transformer were the expensive bits and apparently my parents didn't see it as a big deal. They were just paying for my education in a manner of thinking.The Dumont scope I bought in the early 70s was a WWII surplus single channel scope and cost about $100, probably less.Then came a lot of years with the Heathkit dual channel 10 MHz scope - it worked really well with early microprocessors. Some time before my retirement in '03, I bought the Tek 485 and after my retirement I bought the Rigol. Seems like the Tek was my only scope for about 5 years or so. Time slips by and I have forgotten the exact dates.Until the Rigol, I never had much money in a scope and, truth be known, I don't consider the Rigol as 'much money'. For its capability, it is a grand bargain.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2023, 08:53:00 pm
content: That $100 in the early 70s would be close to $700 now, so in a sense you had more invested in that old CRO than you spent on your Rigol. I don't consider that a huge amount of money now, but until I had a decent paying corporate tech job it was a lot, $700 was more than a month's rent for me back in my early 20s and I lived in a fairly nice apartment with a roommate.