Kickstarter - CleverLight - Smart Wi-Fi LED Light Bulb with IoT Platform for Dev - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cleverthings.dk
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 06:26:58 pm
content: CleverLight - Affordable Smart Wi-Fi LED Light Bulb with Internet of Things Platform for DeveloperControl CleverLight with your existing Wi-Fi and Smartphone or Apple Watch. CleverLight brings amazing light to your home or business, reduces your energy costs, lasts up to 20 years and delivers many amazing features. Install in seconds, just replace your existing bulb with CleverLight.Why is CleverLight smart?- No extra box or hub required, connects to your existing Wi-Fi router- Sets up in Seconds- Same size as conventional LED bulb- Warm white light- Dim your light to your taste with your Smartphone- Control a single or multiple lights at once right from your Apple Watch- Define your own lighting moods for individual devices or group of devices- Energy cost saving overview with CleverLight- Each CleverLight is equipped with a Wi-Fi chip, each CleverLight is completely independent device-For developers: Development Platform to build your own Internet of Things with our Thing1 Wi-Fi ModuleKickstarter Campaign:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cleverlight/cleverlight-affordable-smart-wi-fi-led-light-bulb

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 06:52:06 pm
content: while its convenient to have 'everything' inside the lightbulb, its just too expensive and not every device needs its own wifi or ip-stack (or even zigbee/zwave).when its time to replace the lightbulb, I would hate to throw out all that other stuff integrated with it.until the wifi/ip (etc) becomes a dollar or less, the idea of embedding such expensive connectivity in bulbs just does not make sense.

author: cleverthings.dk
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 07:14:50 pm
content: We believe that it is much more convenient that everything is inside the lightbulb. So extra box or hub is not required..We do see your point, however our solution is cheapest solution on the market accoridng to our knowledge - taking into account that we have wifi withineachbulb and not mixing with bluetooth / zigbee. And price of around 40 USD is not too much for smart light bulb that lasts up to 20 years and delivers many amazing features.Advantage of our solution is that we control each bulb for it self directly. We believe that this is best solution because from the integration point of view of smart home, this is much easier way of intregrating since each device living its own life and directly connected to the internet.Our opinion is definetly that around 40USD is not too much for the smart light bulb...Br,cleverthings.dk

author: Stupid Beard
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 07:28:41 pm
content: What considerations have you given to network security?Will all the code be open so that it can be independently reviewed?

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 07:38:28 pm
content: I'd like to have some of the drugs you guys are smoking. $40 is INSANE.these things fail and they put a lot of heat out (internally heatsinked) and so, failure is going to happen on the first few versions. it will take a few generations to work the bugs out.I don't believe for a second that anyone (short of the huge conglomerates) will be around 5 or 10 (let alone 20) years from now. warranty claims can't be believed, sorry.I understand the attraction of putting a whole ip stack and radio in each device, but I firmly believe this is the 100% wrong way to go about it. too much duplication of expensive technology.all this just to avoid a 'hub' in the house?hubs suck but at least you pay the 'ip stack tax' only once.good luck, but I predict this will go down in flames (so to speak)given its price, its going to fail commercially.

author: cleverthings.dk
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 07:55:30 pm
content: Reply to #3 (Stupid Beard):The initial set-up and communication during use is encrypted with AES-128. Devices comes with a preinstalled key. The key can be configured individually for each device from your SmartPhone.The code will not be open for review.

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 07:56:31 pm
content: 1 - 40$ is too much for a led light2 - 20 years !!! are you kidding

author: cleverthings.dk
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 08:11:49 pm
content: Guys, thanks for your input.There is many smart LED lights out there only with Bluetooth/Zigbee and with hub solution for everything between 35USD - 80USD so LED bulb with WiFi for 40USD is acceptable that is at least our opinion.Cheers.

author: Stupid Beard
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 08:20:11 pm
content: Quote from: cleverthings.dk on March 24, 2015, 07:55:30 pmWas that code implemented by someone who is familiar with encryption code? What about familiarity with writing code hardened against security vulnerabilities?Have you had any security testing and code reviews done against the product as a whole by an independent expert in such things?What I'm getting at is what effect will using your bulbs have on the security of the network they are on as a whole, not just the bulb itself. Have you even given that any consideration at all?What are you going to when someone inevitably finds a security vulnerability in your product? Do you have a process in place for handling that?Also, are you using any GPL licensed code? If so where will you be making that code available?

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 09:18:52 pm
content: there is a good reason why the 'proxy' approach is being done by most of the players. its more central (one ip-stack and many zigbees or zwaves), you can fix broken or buggy ip-stacks once instead of n-times (!) when patches are needed, and you really don't need an ip-addr for each discrete device. ipv6, sure. ipv4? nah, that's bad form.since you are going to be closed-source, we can't know how good your security story is. dependancy on such a small company for updates? are you kidding me?the lower you get in protocols, the less risky and the less security (and misc) updates you will need. when you attach an ip stack to everything, then when you find bugs, you will have to mass-patch them all. this, as they say, 'does not scale well'.again, good luck, but I think you already made several bad design decisions.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2015, 11:24:17 pm
content: I don't see how this is unique compared to Philips Hue Lux, which is only £25 per bulb (~$40US) or £80 for 2 bulbs + hub. Plus, it 's from a more established manufacturer who also offers colour bulbs as an optional expansion.The bulbs might not be wifi, but it's easy enough to network the hub to wifi connecting to any ethernet router. And it's not exactly big. Just hide it behind the bookcase. We have the hub on the 2nd floor, one light works all the way down in the basement kitchenette through rebar concrete.The bulbs use <0.3W standby, due to efficient Zigbee protocol. The API is simple to write to, the hub thing runs a basic http server which you access via a well documented api. It's secure, because you have to authenticate with the hub first to get an api key.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2015, 12:14:51 am
content: its funny since I was just in hardware store a few days ago and noticing the section on 'smart lighting'. they had a starter kit of 2 bulbs and a 'link hub' (not wink hub; not sure what the exact diff is, but its a smaller scaled down unit). $25 for that kit of 3 items. and its still WAY too much money.this is in the pre-early adopter phase. I can't see anyone seriously wiring up their house at more than $10 per bulb, no matter how 'smart' the bulbs are.here's another agument against each device being its own ip host. suppose I put a set of bulbs into a chandelier. do you REALLY need duplicated ip-stacks in each of the bulbs hanging on the common fixture? that's dumb. really dumb.the proxy method is far smarter, and if the bulb dies out, I don't have to throw away a lot of otherwise good working hardware. it makes me laugh to think of each bulb in a hanging fixture, all hitting my local dhcp server, asking for an ip address.you want to INSTANCE the bulbs, to manage them, but you really do not need an ip per bulb. even simple things like a port off of the ip host (like you'd telnet to 1.1.1.1 2000 to get to port 2000 on host 1.1.1.1) would be a reasonable instancing method that does not eat up ip addr's.and if you are not going to be open source, why buy from you? everyone else is closed-source and if I can't have OS, then at least I'd pick a vendor who has been around a while and will continue to be.now, if you change your view and open-source it, THEN maybe this could have some interest. so that even if you, the company, goes bye-bye, the bulbs can still have use, be patchable, etc.remember, when you buy ip-enabled things, you HAVE to ask 'who is going to maintain the code base' and 'who is going to release security updates'. we can't count on short-term companies for this (hell, we can't even count on the big ones). if you don't release code, I see no advantage of your system over anyone else's.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2015, 12:32:26 am
content: Why do you worry so much about eating up IP addresses? NAT solves that. You can have 65k devices on the 192.168 block. That's a lot of lightbulbs.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2015, 12:46:40 am
content: but WHY have all that ip traffic and have so many ip hosts on your lan?I'd rather not do a ping discovery on my lan to find that so many ip's are taken up by 'junk hosts' that don't AT ALL need their own damned ip addr!there's just no good reason for this, that's why. it does not matter if you NAT or not (btw, what is the 'cloud' story here? do you need a public net connection for any reason at all, in your product? a lot of vendors want to be inbetween you and your devices, these days).

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2015, 02:50:50 am
content: Quote from: cleverthings.dk on March 24, 2015, 07:55:30 pmLight bulbs with AES-128 encryption. Yeah. Light bulbs. With encryption.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 26, 2015, 01:44:53 pm
content: You asked for feedback... soo....A $40 price is too high. I can buy a Cree connected bulb for $15.You say "but with ours you don't need a hub". As a consumer, why do I care about a hub? I have Hue bulbs now and I plug a hub in once and I forget about it. I have a cable modem, a router, a VOIP box, my Hue box, a Roku and a few other things all in a neat little stack hidden away. Why would I pay $25 more *per bulb* just so I don't have a tiny little box somewhere that I don't even see it? I don't see the value.Also your video sounds like the CNC machining videos where Chinese people write the script but give it to an American voice-over actor to narrate. They sound absolutely ridiculous using a perfect voice to speak garbled Engrish. I can never understand why companies pay for professional voice acting but neglect to pay a real translator to write the narrative! It makes me feel like I am being tricked - like the creators don't want me to know who is really behind it, and that erodes confidence.20 year life span is a fantasy - the LED's may last that, but even if the electronics do, they will be obsolete in much less than 10 years, probably less than 5. So yes, if I buy a $40 bulb and it does last for 20 years, I save money compared to an incandescent.. but I lose money compared to a CFL and I lose money compared to buying a Cree connected bulb for $15 and I lose money compared to buying whatever the latest and greatest tech is in 5 years.I hope things work out for you but the market for $40 white LED bulbs is pretty much non-existent, especially when the selling point is "sure, it's 3 times the price from a no-name manufacturer... but you don't need a hub!"

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2015, 03:27:05 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 25, 2015, 09:35:33 amHe does not know. This is all usual kickstarter BS which will never go live.

author: mikefatom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 12:45:53 pm
content: This is pretty much what Spark.io first tried with their initial Kickstarter. It failed.Instead, they focused on the "core" aspect of the product and open-sourced it. Now they have the Spark Core, Photon and Electron (3G) and are doing better than ever (at least that's what it seems).

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 12:59:28 pm
content: Quote from: cleverthings.dk on March 24, 2015, 08:11:49 pmAnd why exactly do you think a Wifi is needed on this sort of device? I wouldn't even bother with Bluetooth. Zigbee and mesh networking it would likely address many possible issues with having a hub, such as radio range/coverage (why is a hub a bad idea, btw?).Did you imagine how much work it would be to set up a fixture that has e.g. 12 bulbs if every single one had to be configured manually? That assumes that someone will actually buy 12 $40 bulbs (insane price, IMO).And the 20 years life time - come on. Are you quoting manufacter's BS numbers for the LEDs here? After 5-10 years of normal use the LEDs will be likely so dim they will be unusable and that assumes good quality ones. Some cheap Chinese LEDs will be dead after 6 months already. You don't say where are the LEDs coming from.This is the sort of product where one buys a single bulb to show off in front of friends - "Look, I can turn the light on from my iPhone!". Overpriced gimmick, in other words, with cheaper alternatives in the market already.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 01:04:27 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 25, 2015, 09:35:33 amLikely a default key, identical on every bulb. You could change it but nobody will bother in practice (who loves typing strings of hex numbers on a phone for *every* bulb!). Making the security completely useless and the bulbs free for taking over by any passerby.And I just love the idea that every bulb in the house is its own access point. That is going to be really wonderful for interference and other issues. I do hope that the bulbs can at least be renamed so one doesn't have to set up groups - having 20 items in a list named "CleverLight (x)" is really practical

author: ehughes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 08:03:10 pm
content: Cree and Phillips will always win here. They have a lot more resources AND they make the leds.That being said...Lights need a switch. I find most IoT projects offensive. They are generally exercise in solving 1st world white person problems.Sorry, at $40 it is a fail. Too much tech bolted on a simple function.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 02:39:03 am
content: Quote from: janoc on April 07, 2015, 01:04:27 pmWhat he needs to do is write an app for his phone that will make the phone a Certification Authority and enable autoenrollment for the bulbs. Then each time he installs a new bulb in a fixture, the bulb will connect to his phone and enroll itself to get a SSL certificate. This way he will have unique RSA keys per bulb and usual secure SSL communication will be taking place to operate them in a secure manner. This way his home can even be FIPS certified.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 04:10:38 am
content: "Funding for this project was canceled by the project creator 6 days ago."Was not going to fly anyway...