I tried to order a $1.99 knob from Keysight and felt the PAIN !!! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 07:21:37 pm
content: So the story is, I got an Agilent 54622D off Ebay, got it the other day and it works fine. I took the front panel off to do some cleaning and to treat the UV damaged brown plastic of the 3.5" floppy, and I noticed the knobs. See the knob at the left in the pic? It's the only original knob (for this model). I didn't realize it until I took off the front cover. Then I did some research and discovered that all the knobs but that one are the next gen knobs that Keysight uses on models like DSOX2002A. I don't have a clue who or why somebody would change the knobs out, and where they would have gotten them. The old knobs I think had a coating that went gooey from how that one knob looks. I like the newer knobs so I thought I'd see if I could order one more from Keysight.I found the little matching knob on Keysight's parts site for $1.99. I thought (stupidly)should be easy enough to order that. The story is though - the HELL I had to go through to order it. Pure bureaucratic nonsense.So I found the knob which was orderable for $1.99. Cool I thought. I'll just create an account like so many other stores such as Target or what have you and I'll be on my way. Well I get to the part where it asks you your company name -not an optional field. So WTF am I supposed to do there? I didn't have a clue so I called Keysight and got a nice young man. I asked him if I had to be with a company to order a knob or any parts. He said no just use your name in the company field and it will all be OK". I said fine thanks bye.The account was seemingly created and it said to wait for a "confirmation" email. I got that in a few minutes and it said to click on the link and wait for "approval" which could take 24 hours. Huh? Does Target wait for "approval". Is my money possibly not wanted by this company?I just want to buy a little plastic knob. Is all this really necessary? Whatever.In a few more minutes I get back this email -QuoteSo I called the guy back and told him it didn't work. He was a little confused. I said what characters are in a company email address anyway? How does your computer know what a "company" email address is anyway? How does it know that my email address is not a company email address? I asked if I could just order the damn thing over the phone. He said OK and we completed the order over the phone.The fun isn't over. Oh no.Then I got this later in the day -QuoteAt this point I'm so friggin pissed at this process I called back again and got another person. I said why is it sending me, an individual, this email? He said the system "probably" didn't know I was an individual. I said I just talked to a guy that completed my order over the phone - he clearly knew I was an individual. I did try to complete a registration process that has no clue that individuals can buy your products and buy parts they might need because it asks for a company name. If you sell to individuals, as I guess you do since the guy just sold me a plastic knob and I'm an individual, you know, they could ASK on that page if the person is an individual, you know, in an extra field ... ask the damn question in your registration! Gah!But, what is the deal with email addresses anyway? What reason do they have to need to determine that my email address is NOT my company email address? Why does it have to match anything in particular? For that matter, why can't me, a person with money to spend, buy from you, a product that you sell - this knob for $1.99? I buy, you sell, and everybody goes home happy? Why the nightmarish ordering system registration process? He said he had heard of it being a problem for individuals and he "understood".This folks is plain old Big Company bureaucracy for no good reason. We're talking about a $1.99 plastic knob ...Supposedly it's on order now to arrive in 7 - 10 days because it's not in the U.S. at this time.Hahahahahahaha ... Somebody get me a shot of whiskey.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 07:40:54 pm
content: No whiskey here, X but I have some Grey Goose in the freezer

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 07:49:12 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on June 23, 2017, 07:40:54 pmThanks!You know, if the IT person that designed that registration process didn't want individuals to register, they could have just said this right there -Keysight does not sell to individualsThen, the poor slobs like me who wanted to buy plastic knobs would have been stopped before they got all flustered.I need to PM Daniel from Keysight and link him this thread ...

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 07:56:30 pm
content: It probably cost Keysight $20 to process your $2 order. Plus the telephone calls and disparaging remarks. Now, maybe you know why companies do not like to deal with individuals. Liability is a big one in the US.John

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 08:00:02 pm
content: Maybe PM Keysight_Daniel - maybe he'd send you one for free

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 08:01:31 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on June 23, 2017, 07:56:30 pm

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 08:18:22 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on June 23, 2017, 07:56:30 pmIt may have cost them $20 to process such an order, but then, a big business might have wanted to order a knob for a broken scope, or a self employed repairman/small shop might have wanted to order a replacement knob for a broken scope. How would they tell the difference?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 08:24:31 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on June 23, 2017, 07:56:30 pmIt wouldn't cost them $20 to process such an order if they didn't have such a ridiculous amount of red tape surrounding the order process. All they had to do was take the credit card details, pop the part in a padded envelope and mail it. For such a low value part they should really have just sent it for free as a goodwill gesture.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 09:08:05 pm
content: This has been discussed here before:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/what's-the-skinny-on-purchasing-parts-from-keysight/msg1136105/#msg1136105https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/can't-order-parts-online-from-keysight/msg680088/#msg680088It's a classic corporate stuff-up. Don't blame the software people, this one is management.Maybe the solution is to fake them out? Imply that you are ordering something very expensive, then cancel the order and order the knobs instead

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 09:48:48 pm
content: Keysight should just sent you the knob, end of story.Here is my story and a good example for other companies:My Delta powersupply knob of the potentiometer was broken.I sent them an email if I could buy such a knob with a picture.They sent me an email back: " unfortunately that knob is obsolete, but we will sent you two new ones so you can replace them both." Two days later I received them free of charge. I thanked them and asked why not to sent a bill. They said that creating an account and sending a bill would cost them more then just sending two knobs.That is how you treat your customers right and think cleverly about the consequences of any action.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 10:11:26 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on June 23, 2017, 07:56:30 pmReally?QuoteWow. I swear just the other day I went into a big company - Wal Mart, and itseemedlike they enjoyed dealing with me as an individual. Maybe they were just being nice long enough to get me outta the store? But there were a lot of other individuals in there, at least that's what it looked like. But I could be wrong - maybe they were all with companies.I don't know, maybe I should test them out, you know buy a Payday candy bar and see if they sell me just that. What would they do, give me a lecture on how much it cost to stock little items. Perhaps put a minimum order amount like $20 worth of candy before I can buy it? I could even try that on their web store. I bet I can buy a minimum of what ever thing I want, as long as I pay to have it shipped. I bet I can. Because you know, it's already in the warehouse, so if I pay for it (which they make a profit on) and pay for the shipping, it's all good.I go into companies all the time though and it sure seems like they want me there and appreciate my business as an individual. Car dealerships, grocery stores, tool stores, gas stations, hobby shops, banks, brick & mortar and online. I could go on but as far as I can tell (and they could be fooling me) they all seem to like dealing with individuals.QuoteHmm. Matter of fact, (even being the lowly slime that I am - an individual) I've even dealt with major test equipment companiesdirectly, such as Rigol, as an individual, and they even seemed to appreciate it. Matter of fact, Rigol made me a really good deal on a newer function generator because they had certain design flaws in the model I had. This dealing with them directly as an individual person - you know - a customer. Go figure.QuoteSo, I think that's a very interesting statement. It's a good thing companies do deal with individuals, because we'd all probably starve to death otherwise.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 10:51:38 pm
content: The knob you want to replace is the intensity grading control, I think it is different from the other knobs. All the other knobs connect directly to the rotary encoder or pot shaft, this knob connects to a plastic shaft that is 4-5 inches long, very delicate and when you remove the knob, the whole knob-shaft assembly comes off.I think that is why the previous owner changed all the knobs but the one on the left.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 10:56:55 pm
content: Quote from: TK on June 23, 2017, 10:51:38 pmNo, that's incorrect. I've already tried swapping knobs on that shaft. The new knobs work just peachy keen. But thank you for your concern.Quote from: jpanhalt on June 23, 2017, 10:12:41 pmWell, what are you waiting for jpanhalt? Go ahead and give us the long version of it all. Please explain to us why"companies do not like to deal with individuals"I'm dying to know the full story. What was that old quote from some tabloid? Oh it was "Enquiring minds want to know"

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 11:03:39 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 23, 2017, 10:56:55 pmI was just quoting your previous response. I thought the meaning would be clear, at least to you.Frankly, you are out of touch when you equate a Walmart customer to an corporate customer. Corporate customers do not behave in such a childish manner as your response to Keysight. From my perspective and based only on what you wrote, Keysight bent over backwards to satisfy you, and you responded by initiating this hate thread. Next time, get your knobs at Walmart.John

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 11:08:51 pm
content: It seems like a company such as Keysight would have a sizable inventory of replacement parts and probably moves a fairly large number them per year. You'd think they would have a less clunky system in place to deal with it.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 11:20:26 pm
content: I still love Keysight. I know this can happen. I've had the same thing happen with appliance companies and gun companies and other manufacturers when you need a part because something broke on you and you are a fixit yourself type person.This problem is not unique to Keysight, far from it.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 11:22:36 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on June 23, 2017, 11:03:39 pmAfter my response I explained why Keysight's parts ordering process was broken, overly bureaucratic, and illogical very clearly. It's obvious to anyone but you it seems.QuoteNot accepted I'm afraid. Keysight will sell you or I a multi-thousand dollar piece of gear with no problem. One oscilloscope. One DMM. One spectrum analyzer. To one individual.Just like Wal Mart will sell an individual one candy bar or one quart of milk. There isno difference whatsoeverin the fundamental transaction. So, my complaint and explanation is hardly "childish". You still haven't explained why"companies do not like to deal with individuals"And no, I won't get my Keysight knobs at Wal Mart because they do not make them or sell them. Keysight is the company that does, and they do sell to individuals individual knobs if you make a phone call (which apparently you don't like individuals doing). The issue is that their registration and further process of ordering for an individual is broken and illogical.But I'll be here if you care to muster a response to your statement -"companies do not like to deal with individuals"It's very interesting your attitude in this. I have to wonder what motivates your disgust towards individuals that need to deal with companies that they need to buy from. I guess we'll never know.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 01:02:54 am
content: @henrodog: Thanks for looking up and posting those threads. I was about to do the same until I saw your post.@xrunner: At least this time the part you needed was available for sale (unlike the VFD you needed last year). I and others have felt your pain (and posted about it) when trying to get parts from HPAK. However, still others have had very good results. It depends on many factors, only a few of which I've figured out thus far.As you can see from some of my experiences, below, the process can vary quite a bit:1. DMM repair/replace (under warranty): Long process and lots of back and forth via phone and emails to explain and convince Keysight what the problem was as they apparently hadn't encountered it before. After RMA was approved, I had to pay out of pocket to ship the DMM back to them. Only then was a replacement issued.2. DMM repair/replace (not under warranty): Known problem. Quick and easy process. Submitted form online and received replacement. No out of pocket costs. No fuss.3. Parts for several power supplies (not under warranty): Known problem covered by an old Agilent service note. Since no process existed for ordering/tracking/handling the parts replacement from the service note, it took many follow ups via phone and email over the course of several months to get it resolved. Eventually, I got the parts shipped to me. No out of pocket costs.Bonus: Keysight offered to send an engineer to do the replacement on site for me.I opted out as it was an easy DIY task.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 01:08:33 am
content: Ordering parts from Canada is easy - it is telephone only though. The only catch is you gotta spend 100 bucks. So while it is a pain in the US it would have hurt more if that knob had been 100 bucks...

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 01:45:28 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 23, 2017, 11:22:36 pmA lot of the "small" sales like that will go through a distributor, not directly. Your distributor should be able to order parts easily for you as they are already setup and routinely order shipments. Or be happy you're in the US and offered direct access to the parts sales unlike the rest of the world.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 01:51:37 am
content: Quote from: TheSteve on June 24, 2017, 01:08:33 amThat's normally not so hard to do. They wanted almost $15 apiece for replacement binding posts to fix my E3610A (thanks, but no). I'm actually surprised this knob was only $1.99

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 01:55:01 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 24, 2017, 01:45:28 amWhich means you get to chuck the price listed by Keysight out the window and brace yourself for a wallet thrashing from the distributor.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 02:06:12 am
content: Quote from: rdl on June 24, 2017, 01:51:37 amYeah, some of the parts are really pricey. Anecdotally, it appears that age and/or scarcity has a lot to do with it. It's as if the parts accumulate rent while in the warehouse.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 02:17:14 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 24, 2017, 01:45:28 amI'm happy that they offer it, I'm just not happy that their IT system doesn't seem to realize it (for individuals).All I'm saying is their IT system is botched as far as an individual is concerned. If you read my story you'd see that the nice man (they were all nice) didn't balk at all about me as an individual ordering a $1.99 knob ( oh and yes they are billing me more than $1.99 don't worry about the stability of the company).He even told me to enter my name in the company field in the registration process. So don't anyone think they are not wanting to deal with individual people (you know who you are). But that being said come on Keysight! If you want to sell knobs to individual customers then fix the IT system that makes you think you have to be a "company" person, or pretend to be by entering your name in that field as directed by the rep (which fails anyway).And to make it clear I suppose - I worked for 1/4 century in one of the largest aerospace companies on the planet, so I am familiar with some of this process (I'm retired now and just hassle companies for little knobs)The entity that "bent over backwards" as someone said was not Keysight - it was me the customer. In fact my back is killing me tonight.Oh and I did PM Daniel from Keysight the link to this thread ...

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 02:38:36 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 24, 2017, 02:17:14 amLikewise, everyone I've interacted with at Keysight were friendly and professional. They get frustrated with or puzzled by some of these "procedures", too.QuoteI can imagine what kinds of red tape were involved there.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 03:07:47 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on June 24, 2017, 02:38:36 amYep and that right there tells you something.QuoteYou have no idea ... you have NO ideaThe bigger the company the more departments it has. The more departments there are the more processes there are for each department. People get promoted and they have to produce something, so one thing the manager does is write processes for their department (if there were not any before) or they re-write the processes.Now, if it's large enough you are going to get conflicting processes. I canguarantee(notice I underlined and italicized that) you that is the problem I and others encounter with this parts ordering/individual thing. Keysight has conflicting processes for parts ordering. It's obvious to anyone really.One process from one dept. says "Require all registrations to be from a legitimate company representative"Another one says "parts can be sold to both company representatives and individual customers (that's the process the phone reps use).Now, put them together and presto - confilcting processes. Wow, I need to get Keysight to hire me to fix this issue!

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 04:13:21 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on June 23, 2017, 07:56:30 pm$20 is probably a low estimate between the phone call, accounting, warehouse picker, and shipping.Folks need to realize that Keysight, like many such corporations, has a very different business model than direct, retail sales. Keysight might help this PR problem by including an "individual" option in their system to automatically catch this stuff, but don't expect anything to change dramatically in this regard. Buying things as an individual from a company that does 99.999% of their sales volume as business-to-business will just never be easy.And I don't care where you are, virtually every corporate B2B accounting system is awkward, flakey, and hated by all but the head accountant who crammed it down everyone's throat.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 08:52:24 am
content: xrunner is a much nicer person than I can ever aspire to beI would have SCREWED them so hard, they would have NO ALTERNATIVE but to send me a new oscilloscope FREE,and a BOX of FREE replacement knobs to sweeten the 'shutup and go away' deal,as well as an offer of employment as their new international parts supply OVERSEER, with a yearly salary exceeding the CEO'si.e. if VALUED CUSTOMERS like xrunner get that type of treatment on my watch, heads will roll !!!!!!

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 10:17:44 am
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on June 24, 2017, 04:13:21 amNot being rude, but you are missing the point. It isn't just individuals that Keysight are confused about. They are also confused about whether they sell to international customers. They are confused about how to set up new accounts. I have no doubt there are many other scenarios they are also confused about.Clearly the people that understand the rules, are very deep down the parts purchasing rabbit hole. The policies at the back end have not been deployed at the front end.Therefore both customers, and purchasing help desk staff have no idea what they are allowed to do.Setting up a web store is not rocket salad these days. Keysight are getting away with it at the moment due to lack of competition (who else does this well?), but that will not last forever. There is an opportunity for a smart operator to provide quality backup service for their gear.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 12:59:42 pm
content: xrunner - I had a similar attempt to get an HP knob - I was lucky and got an off the cuff comment early on that they really only wanted to deal with retailers - large service departments re parts. I called my local HP-Ag-KS people (who are nice) and 6 weeks later got the partYou think with a little effort re the website - they would make a nice business selling parts and bits to us crazy TEA heads and moving stock!

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 03:24:51 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on June 24, 2017, 10:17:44 amThe matter of selling to international customers is not simple when there can be authorized distributors in the customer's country who contractually receive first crack at all business.Personally, I agree with the concept of selling all Keysight parts (not just a few select ones) to anyone anywhere with a credit card out of a webstore, but the reality is, that it won't be a department that could raise sales by 1% or even 0.1% for Keysight, who did $2.9B in sales in 2016. Keysight' average customer (of which there are only 45,000 direct and indirect) buys $64K USD per year in test gear.Keysight only spun off three years ago. That kind of a change involves a huge amount of turmoil. I guarantee that all of the focus is in on sales to their core customers who buy tens of thousands a year in new equipment and not $20 worth of spare parts every few years to refurbish long obsolete products.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 03:52:00 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on June 24, 2017, 03:24:51 pmUmm ... the knob in question, that I wanted, is not a "long obsolete product". It's the exact same knob that goes with their current models of scopes such as the InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series ...

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 04:48:18 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 24, 2017, 03:52:00 pmReferring to the scope with the floppy drive...

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 04:49:44 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on June 24, 2017, 04:48:18 pmYes, yes so am I. You need to go back and read the opening post I made ...

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 04:53:30 pm
content: From that POV any hobbyist that buys their gear second hand and tries to repair/upgrade/look like new is not their core business. They rather sell you a new unit. In that perspective it is great service that they will sell you parts at all.What the T&A world could use is 2nd hand sellers of parts and boards, just like with cars.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 04:56:43 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on June 24, 2017, 04:53:30 pmBoy, I could sure make a killer analogy to the automobile industry with that statement, but I bet you can imagine what my analogy would be without trying too hard at all. Especially the part about"In that perspective it is great service that they will sell you parts at all."

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 05:03:03 pm
content: Yeah well the picture LabSpokane drawed was a sort of IBM from the eighties, sell a mainframe and if something is not working sell them the newer one.The fact is that a second hand owner is not core business for such big companies, look at Apple if anything from their devices is not working you get a new one and you have to pay for it if out of warranty. A sad world but that is where we are heading.I find it upsetting that buying a $5000 amplifier I am not getting the service manual they dont give it to you. They dont want you to modify or repair their devices. So in that context Keysight is a pretty decent company

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 05:30:57 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on June 24, 2017, 05:03:03 pmAgain, I can make the exact same analogy to the automobile industry. Oh what the hell, here -So a day in the life of Charlie, the owner of a used 2009 Chevy truck ...Charlie walks into the Chevy dealership parts department -Charlie: "Hello, I need the front driver's side headlamp lens and lamp for a 2009 Chevy truck"Parts man: "You say a 2009 Chevy truck? Well sir you know that's an obsolete vehicle that we do not produce any longer"Charlie: "Well, yea so? Models change every year, but so what? Don't you have the parts for it?"Parts guy: "Sir, this parts dept. is NOT our core business. Wouldn't you be better off buying a new Chevy truck? That's my recommendation."Charlie: "I like my 2009 truck, I just need a few parts for it and it will be OK."Parts guy: "Well, I don't recommend fixing it, but realize this - you need to understand that you should be very glad that we are going to sell you any parts at all. Are you going to be appreciative of us doing that?"Charlie: " Yea dude whatever just get the parts and let me get outta here!"Parts guy: " Sure thing oh by the way that going to add an additional 20% onto the price for fixing a used truck."Charlie: "WTF?"

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 05:42:46 pm
content: Yes I understand you're point.My point was actually that for used cars and oldtimers there are tons of small businesses earning their living. If you need a wing from a 60s corvette you can get it from some metalscrapyard/use autoparts company, carburator are made brand new these days etc.You would expect something like that for T&A equipment but it is getting the opposite way, buy a new one

author: amirm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 05:53:17 pm
content: I experienced a similar thing with Keysight. Bought a scope from Fry's Electronics and noticed one of the probes was physically broken. It was loose in the middle and would make intermittent connection.So I go and register with similar process to OP. Get through all of that and then try to make a warranty claim. They said I had to pack and ship the entire scope to them! I went through two people I think and no matter how much I explained it is just a probe and that the other one in the box works, they said I had to send the entire scope to them.So I gave up and still have a broken probe buried somewhere in my junk boxes.As noted though, everyone was very friend that I dealt with so it is not them but the system someone has created for them that lacks flexibility and common sense.

author: theatrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 06:15:21 pm
content: Also up there in the realm of "stupid registration requirements for website" has to be muRata. In order to see some better data on capacitors, you need to register. Registration apparently requires someone to manually vet your "application", which can take weeks.I registered an account several months back, basically checked all the boxes for the various business areas, and just got an approval message for one of them today.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 06:32:50 pm
content: Quote from: theatrus on June 24, 2017, 06:15:21 pmRegistrations like that just make people check boxes and do whatever it takes to get through it. So in the end what was the purpose if people check boxes that effectively give the company useless data if you just click things to get through it.It's like that Keysight field asking for your company name. Me being an honest person and not now with a company, it even made me stop and make a call to Keysight, to ask them what I should do. Well if you have read this thread you'd know that the representative told me to enter my name there. So in a field that is storing company names I was told to enter a personal name. So the data accumulating in the database for that field (assuming this has been done many times before) is full of errors. Like I said, the Dept. that owns the process that caused the design of the registration to ask for a company name doesn't mean squat to the parts order takers that answer the phone. They don't care. Their process couldn't care less about whether you are a company or not, so they break the other Dept's process on demand for the parts customers who are not with a company. Pointless.It's really simple to fix. Have a selection box for either a company account or a personal account. Then they can proceed as they wish. If they have rules for a company to follow: gosub "company". Or if it's a personal account: gosub "personal".If there are different charges for a personal account, such as surcharges for being a pesky hobbyist or whatnot, then so be it. But it ain't that hard!Daniel must be on weekend vacation but I did PM him this thread.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 08:21:26 pm
content: This is what happens when Keysight makes a 100GHz 1m$ scope in their product line. It makes them feel they can ignore the little guy...

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 11:38:57 pm
content: Makes you wonder WHY the former good gear company has gone through so many name changes..I've noticed HP laptops are still branded HP, relatively bug free, good supportand notorange... yet

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 12:27:40 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on June 24, 2017, 11:38:57 pmI remember when it happened - in 1999. I think it was Lew Platt that did it, split it into HP and Agilent. The good name of HP went to the computer side. I couldn't believe that at the time. I remember it very well because I thought it was stupid.Then the whole mess was handed over to Carly Fiorina.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 01:35:48 am
content: well yeah, how many laptops, PCs and servers would they sell if they were re-named Agilent and Keysight,while Dell, Acer and the others kept their names, and flogged more gear due to customer brand familiarity and confidence"oooh lookie at my new Agilent laptop..""is an 'Agilent'? who makes it? another new player? stick to the real deal and buy a pro HP or Dell next time..Can you take it back for a refund, seriously Doris, that orange laptop looks weird "

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 02:36:17 am
content: Quote from: JoeN on June 23, 2017, 11:20:26 pmYes. Even consumer facing companies can be problematic. A few months back it took my father 60 minutes on the phone for DirecTV to send him a new remote control. The overseas tech support guy had him pressing *every* button on the remote in a procedure that took 30 seconds per button. I'm not even kidding here.On the flip side, you have companies that have amazing service. I once lost a spring and pin from a S&W .40 Pistol (I spent 30 minutes searching the ground, it must have bounced into a micro black hole). I called S&W up and they sent me new ones, no questions asked, free of charge. They arrived UPS two days later. That was my first S&W pistol, now I own several more, because of the fantastic customer service.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 03:22:41 am
content: Quote from: timb on June 25, 2017, 02:36:17 amYep some companies are amazing - My son lost a specific part of a Lego set he got for his birthday. I found a web page where you can request replacement parts direct for Lego. I got an email back saying that they don't offer that service to NZ, but they would send a replacement part anyway...! A couple of weeks later the part arrived in the mail - no charge.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 09:07:13 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on June 25, 2017, 03:22:41 amWow, it's awesome to hear LEGO still has great service like that! Around 1996 or so I had lost a part (from their more advanced Technix series) and called their toll free support number. Not only did they send me the part I needed, they sent me a handful of other parts too, including some of the fully articulate Technix mini-figs. I was 12 or 13 at the time and thought it was so cool they did that.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 09:51:59 am
content: Anyone tried to message Keysight's eBay store and ask them for spare parts? Never had any issues with their eBay store, one click purchase, free shipping, arrives within a week.Maybe they should start listing spare parts?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 12:30:09 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on June 25, 2017, 09:51:59 amWow. Looks like any old soul (read: individual) with $250,000 to spare on a weekend can pop this baby into their Ebay cart. The list price is $453,000 -DSAX96204Q Digital Signal Analyzerhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-DSAX96204Q-Digital-Signal-Analyzer-62-GHz-4-Ch-160-GSa-Agilent-/182576592252?hash=item2a8269b57cBut, if that same dear person's cat jumps up on the bench and chomps on the EXACT same little gray knob I tried to buy (that unit uses the same knobs), and they go to the Keysight web store to buy a new knob, they will get the samered carpettreatment as I did, not being a "company".Hey Keysight my cat ate the knob on my DSAX96204Q! Can I by a new one from you over the phone. I can't register on the web store.Hold on sir - what is a cat doing inside your company building?It's not a company building - it's my house!Your house? What are you doing with a DSAX96204Q in your house?I bought it on Ebay from Keysight!I don't know anything about Keysight on Ebay - must be a fake store sir. Also, the web store screens people who are not with companies. Looks like we also need to add another field for people with cats in the same room as your test equipment. We don't want them to buy parts either. As you can see your cat has damaged a very expensive piece of kit. Selling you another one will just end up having the same fate.So what - accidents happen. I know of people that have caused way more damage to test equipment than my cat did.Sir, let me quote you a line from the movie2001 A Space Odyssey"I'm sorry but this conversation can serve no purpose any longer. Goodbye"Daniel? Oh Daniel wherefore art thou?

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 12:57:27 pm
content: The problem in this story is not that Keysight does not deliver to individuals. The problem is that when talking on the phone personally, their employees tell you it's all fine.So they should make their rules more clear.That's why you end up in a frustrating process, because someone says A and someone else says B from the same company.A little bit unprofessional in my opinion.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 03:12:46 pm
content: Let's just see how far down the rabbit hole we go -I just sent a message to the Keysight store on Ebay. Let's see what they say, if anything. Remember, this is official Keysight. Some people here have been saying they'd rather not sell parts to individuals. We've also seen that the IT department was directed (by some controlling dept.) to make sure you are a company in the registration process.Who knows - perhaps I can get a major corporation to change something? I love challenges like this.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 06:17:34 pm
content: xrunner, according to my experience this push can take you either way towards a "fix": either the company maintains its interest in the mass market or stops selling anything to individuals. This is highly dependent on internal forces inside the company.Daniel can obviously help getting some traction in our favor, but there's always the possibility...

author: eyiz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 06:54:24 pm
content: Bureaucracy always seems to get in the way of common sense.Sometime ago I tried to order a Beablebone Black board from Mouser. This was being used in the "Control of Mobile Robots" course offered by Georgia Tech in the Coursera online platform, and I wanted to complete the hardware section of that course.The problem was that I'm in Canada. And the US has export regulations that restrict the export of certain high tech parts. Apparently, the Beaglebone Black was under such a restriction. So, for a Canadian to order this board from the US, a document needed to be signed stating that this item would not be re-exported or diverted to another country.Mouser sends me the doc in pdf, and asks me to print it out, sign it, and FAX is back to them, before they could complete the order.Now the problem is that I have no fax machine. I used to go down to the local Kinkos and fax stuff that required faxing, years ago, but the Kinkos closed down, and I have no idea where to go to fax things today.So, the next solution is to use my scanner and scan the signed doc into my computer, and email that over to Mouser. The problem is that my scanner is old, doesn't work with Windows 7, and it is used so rarely today, that I haven't bothered to buy a new one. So, I had to restore an old computer I had, running Windows XP, attach the old scanner, scan the doc, copy the doc over via USB Stick to my newer machine, and then email the doc to Mouser. All that just to buy this simple part.And here's the kicker. The Beaglebone Black is "Open Source" hardware. You can buy this from many places, all over Europe, or build it yourself, and there's no restriction in buying this open source hardware anywhere else, just in the US. This made absolutely no sense to me, but since it was just part of a larger order I placed with Mouser, I went through with the whole rigmarole just to get my parts without further fuss.Somehow, someone's common sense couldn't see that the restriction didn't make any sense in this particular case, the fear of the bureaucracy was great enough to place everything of high tech nature under the same umbrella. So it goes.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 07:13:05 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on June 25, 2017, 06:17:34 pmYea I'd like Daniel to read this, but no, I'm not the least bit worried about what will happen because I am 99.9% sure what the issue is. It's bureaucracy at it's finest.Quote from: eyiz on June 25, 2017, 06:54:24 pmRobots! Oh Noooos!Yea it's bureaucracy and conflicting processes. I've talked to two people at Keysight already to get my knob order straightened out and neither of them made any deal at all about me ordering parts as an individual. The first guy that took my order over the phone couldn't have cared less about that "company" field, and the second guy I explained it all to, just said "yea I've heard it's a hassle to order parts as an individual". It wasn't like they were doing a deep dark thing that was against company rules. It's probably a mistake that some department doesn't have the time or budget to change, but is it against the company policy? No hell no.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 07:48:36 pm
content: Hi,Quote from: xrunner on June 23, 2017, 10:11:26 pmWell, that might be an exceptional experience, given the general quality of Wal-Mart...You're missing that Wal-Mart makes ittheir businessto deal with as many people as possible, at as thin a margin as possible.The direct consequence is, they are quite harsh on their employees and suppliers.Amazon is even more strict on that matter.QuoteLikely, their average margins are set to turn a profit on the average customer.How many customers does your local superstore serve? Hundreds at a time? Thousands per day? Hundreds of thousands per year?The spite-purchase of one small item every time wouln't affect their bottom line. Averages matter. And the average person is going to go in there and buy at least $20 of stuff and food. Probably, the average purchase is $50 or more. The profit of maybe $15 they make on those purchases covers their costs.QuoteReflect on theaveragecustomers for both of these companies:Rigol makes lots of modest size sales (and, probably, a lot of sales to distributors, but also a lot of support to them and their customers). None(?) of their products are exceptional in terms of international regulations. It's valuable to them to maintain a good appearance, so that their products remain attractive and competitive. This includes supporting smaller customers -- who are likely to go on and make a few additional purchases in later years, or to recommend purchases to their managers.On the other hand, Keysight makes products from entry level to enterprise. Their products comply with many regulations, including international arms agreements. Their average customer is corporate to enterprise, making large purchases (a $10k combo scope -- or a dozen at a time), through relatively complicated means (POs, credit, etc.). They are (probably?) expert at handling export and customs. These are all inherently high overhead procedures, and it wouldn't be unfair to suppose they offer their entry level products grudgingly, or preferably through distributors (who are set up to handle small purchases).It is very much in their interest to keep customers happy, but if most of their customers are corporate, they only need to keep corporate customers happy -- company registration and accountants to handle POs are SOP in that case.As for the e-mail thing... who knows. I know of a few companies that make their employees use GMail, if you can imagine being so cheap. They'd seem to have a problem with that.Tim

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 07:56:29 pm
content: Quote from: eyiz on June 25, 2017, 06:54:24 pmI find it hard to believe that the BBB would be covered by something like ITAR, but I would give Mouser the benefit of the doubt in this case, since government regulations are not exactly known for being sensible.Quote from: eyiz on June 25, 2017, 06:54:24 pmJust a tip for next time: there are some smart phone apps (usually called something with scanner) that will correct a smart phone picture for geometric distortion and exposure, making a modern smart phone a decent scanner for things like forms. These days I use CamScanner instead of trying to get an old flatbed scanner to work. Scans are perfectly legible and never had a complaint from the companies / agencies I sent the scans to.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 08:09:22 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on June 25, 2017, 07:48:36 pmHiQuoteOffer them "grudgingly? Gosh, aren't we the lucky crew, to bow down to Keysight because they "grudgingly" offer their products to us! What a wonderful world!Ridiculous. Either offer the products, or don't offer them. Having some behind the scenes or up front tainting of them being offered only grudgingly is not the way to do business. Offer the products and spare parts or don't offer them - do or do not as Yoda would say.QuoteI quite disagree with that statement. Again, if they are selling to individuals (and they are) then they need to make them happy as well. Sell to individuals and make them happy, or don't sell to them. There is no in between in this.QuoteYes indeed.But all this debate over them selling test equipment and parts to individuals is a non-issue - it's settled - they do it happily. The problem is their registration process is broken because of a silly email rule/field that no representative of the company yet has even acknowledged to be pertinent. If you've read this thread you'd know that the guy that took my order over the phone initially told me to "ignore the company name and just enter my personal name in the field" !I'm going to find out if it can be fixed for the benefit of other individuals who try to register. The field is useless, it's ignored by their own people, and should be removed or changed to accommodate both entities.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 09:48:01 pm
content: Quote from: eyiz on June 25, 2017, 06:54:24 pmBeen there time and again for all forms of legal documents. I just print the .pdf to a bitmap image like .bmp or .png. I keep a high res scanned .bmp of my signature on my HD, I load the converted .pdf into paint software & paste in my signature on the line (the paint software allows me to adjust the size of my signature so it fits) and fill out any text with a simple text tool in the paint software & re-print the edited image to .pdf & email it out all the time without issue. No paper waste.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 01:45:09 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on June 25, 2017, 09:48:01 pmPro Tip: Adobe Reader (and most other PDF software like Foxit, etc.) on Windows allows you to digitally stamp your signature directly into a PDF. Preview on macOS also has this feature. (Preview even makes it easy to get your signature into the system! You sign a white piece of paper and hold it up in front of the camera and it takes care of processing and storing it; alternatively you can use a capacitive stylus and the trackpad.)These programs also let you add text anywhere to the PDF (markup) and fill in text fields and checkboxes on form PDFs. So, you can save a bit of time by just downloading some decent PDF software.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 04:48:12 am
content: Quote from: timb on June 26, 2017, 01:45:09 amThanks for the tip. I've been doing it my way long before such tools existed, so, I never looked to update my method.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 07:04:00 am
content: Btw, I always sign everything "digitally".Just copy past your signature into the document.(sometimes you have to export a pdf to high quality jpeg and go back to pdf)

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 09:58:37 am
content: I recently bought a camera module from E-Con Systems and it didn't even let me register with a email that ends in gmail.com or yahoo.com or anything like that along with the company text field being mandatory. So what i did was simply enter my work email and company name and everything went smoothly.But good to know that ordering spare parts from Keysight is convoluted. So if i ever need a part i will likely go trough my local distributor (That i regret ever contacting due to how pesky they ended up in sending me emails and calling me if they can help me with my test and measurement needs).I also sign things digitally. I use FoxitReader as my PDF viewer and it has a button for stamping PNG picture of your signature on to a document. Only have to add your signature once and then you can stamp it all over any PDF by just clicking.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 11:28:40 am
content: Well look what I got from Keysight.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 05:43:48 pm
content: Whew! Sounds like quite the run-around and I'm so sorry for all of the trouble you've been having.A couple comments.1st, the whole "selling to individuals" thing is a legal liability thing. I don't know the details, but essentially the way our equipment is packaged, tested, and registered with governments limits who we can sell to. That's part of the distributor network thing, too. I'm not an expert on this area, but have fought it enough internally to know it's not just a weird Keysight bureaucracy issue but an actual legal concern.2nd, that scope is well past it's normal support life, so getting parts for it is all ad-hoc. The X-Series are definitely still supported so getting one of those should not be this difficult.I'll work out getting you a new knob via the PM you sent, our back-end support may have some on hand for issues like this.For posterity finding this thread through a search, the knob sizes are pretty standard, so even if you can't find the specific knob you're looking for you should be able to find a suitable replacement.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 06:04:56 pm
content: This occurred a few weeks ago (translated to English, with actual details bleeped out.):Me: Hello? This is Max.Sales: Hello. This is So-and-so Co. Ltd. Thank you for calling us. What can I do for you?Me: Can I buy a one or two of your SIM7600CE module with voice support?Sales: What is the purpose of the modules?Me: Experimenting for now.Sales: What is the name and scale of your company?Me: I am currently part of a start-up team, company not registered yet.Sales: Sorry. We do not do business to individuals. *clunk*Ouch.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 06:15:28 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight_DanielBogdanoff on June 26, 2017, 05:43:48 pmNo Daniel - did you read the first post? I'm not trying to get a part for that 54622D! Somebody replaced all the knobs on it BUT ONE with the newer Keysight design knobs that are NOT out of support. Plus I've already got the newer knob ordered. The issue here is not the knob but the registration process for individuals on the Keysight parts store, the whole email does not match your company name thing (which all the reps IGNORE anyway).

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 08:17:06 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on June 24, 2017, 08:21:26 pmWhen the little guy is buying $2 in parts every year, anyone can and has the right to ignore them.Although preferably they'd be a bit more upfront, and not waste everyones time.As people have already pointed out, these order systems are designed around large orders from companies, sucks for us as individuals, but thats how it is.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 08:37:26 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on June 26, 2017, 08:17:06 pmActually the parts website with it's shopping cart is generally what you would implement for individuals and small companies, not large companies.Typically I'd expect large companies would have direct access to internal specialists/account managers/sales who would look after them.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 09:16:45 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 26, 2017, 06:15:28 pmThat's why I added that second line about X-Series definitely still getting supported. I've learned to cover all the bases when posting on this forum or else in a few months I'll start getting PMs about supporting the 54622D.Like I said, I'll get you a new knob via PM.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 09:27:01 pm
content: Thank you, Daniel.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 10:05:14 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight_DanielBogdanoff on June 26, 2017, 09:16:45 pmThank you for your support here on the EEVBlog forum. I'll reply to the email you sent me with further information.