smoke detectors - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 05:02:45 pm
content: Hi!Is there any proof that smoke detectors can help to survive an unrequested fire?In F.Rep.Germ we had hardly any smoke alarms until 2006, but the smoke death rate went down like in (for example) the U.S.A.But since we have smoke alarms (mostly photo electric with annual tests by specially certified personnel) in almost every bedroom, this trend seems to be destroyed.I made a picture about that:https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fire_and_smoke_deaths_per_inhabitant_%28F.Rep.GERM%29.svgFurthermore I mentioned, that there are several wrong statements spread by thegovernment (e. g.: the death rate in 2010 is the same as in 1997) andthe insurances (e. g.: in 2015 the death rate was allegedly just 50% of 2000).Is my picture somehow misleading?Is there something special to do with those thingies at the ceiling?E. g.:(A) Not trying to play fire fighter, because the alarm is still too late for unprotected fire extinguishing?(B) Never leave children alone because they don't care for loud noise and/or instructions?(C) Still be careful with candles and cigs, because the smoke alarm does not always help?P. S.:Why is it, that hardly anybody watches my youtube video ("smoke alarms in germany") about this?Thx.Bye.

author: mmagin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 06:56:16 pm
content: It seems entirely possible that this smoke detector mandate just happens to correlate with a vast increase in cheap unsafe electrical products being imported from overseas.

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 08:27:22 pm
content: mmagin:Quoteyup... could be unsafe devices...the numbers are quite small... but they look wrong since years...so that would be an ongoing problem...usually the european market is quite strictly regulated...e. g. u cant import the glasses of a famous US artists, if they do not have certified lenses(the buyer had to destroy them, while the customs officer was watching, then he was allowed to take the shards and the undamaged frame with him)

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 08:37:24 pm
content: Didn't know that the conspiracy nuts are after smoke detectors now...Also, some other contents of his website areslightlybizarre.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 11:30:30 pm
content: Quote from: RIDDICC on April 05, 2017, 05:02:45 pmThere is, but its a slippery slope where the incremental improvements probably are overstated:http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate/Legal_and_Constitutional_Affairs/Fire_safety/In reviewing the rules for smoke detectors in Australia the industry came out in force supporting more laws to increase their work/profits with little proof that the measures would be cost effective, attached below is one of the few critical examinations of smoke detectors.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2017, 02:11:48 am
content: To suggest fire alarms do not saves lives is ridiculous.There are many reports of people being woken up by their fire alarm and have escaped to fire alive. You only need one such case to make it worthwhile.Why anyone would argue against such unobtrusive protection measures is beyond me.http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-research/fire-statistics-and-reports/fire-statistics/fire-safety-equipment/smoke-alarms-in-us-home-fireshttp://www.nfpa.org/public-education/by-topic/smoke-alarms/reports-and-statistics-about-smoke-alarmshttp://www.mysmokealarm.org/smoke-alarm-statistics/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1071009/

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2017, 02:56:38 am
content: Is it the 'annual inspection by certified person' that is the issue?That would annoy me.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2017, 02:58:18 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 06, 2017, 02:11:48 amIf the cost of smoke detectors outweighed the benefit of saving that life then yes it would not be worthwhile. The discussion linked above makes it clear that there is insufficient data to make clear decisions and that better data needs to be collected to guide future decisions. Instead we get silly things like in QLD:http://www.masterelectricians.com.au/content/Document/Members_QLD/QFES_New-Smoke-Alarm-Legislation.pdf10 Year life mandated, disposable detectors, and prohibiting ionising detection while mandating a particular detection method rather than a required performance. A smoke detector is an important thing to have and keep maintained, but adding more and more legislative requirements around it is only going to profit the industry supporting it. The questions of efficacy are real and valid:https://www.firefightingincanada.com/prevention/smoke-alarms-evaluating-effectiveness-1332https://www.nist.gov/engineering-laboratory/smoke-alarm-researchhttp://freakonomics.com/2012/02/06/how-many-lives-do-smoke-alarms-really-save/The last link presents a very persuasive lack of correlation between installations of smoke detectors and the rate of death from fires.Promote them all you like and use them if they make you feel safer, but like bicycle helmets and seat belts the impressive statistics suggesting they are effective rely on synthetic tests rather than real world use.

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2017, 05:20:44 am
content: Quote from: VK5RC on April 06, 2017, 02:56:38 amThat certified person is only one of the problems...They seem to be trained to sell devices for places, that r not covered by law (e. g. my kitchen)...Furthermore they stand in my bedroom with their street shoes (the last inspector used over-shoes, that he put on somewhere outside my apartment (in the best case when he was inside the stairwell)).Of course I see, that many people do not treat their smoke alarms as good as they should, but that is no reason to believe, that I am one of them...Funnily my landlord cannot bill me for the device itself, but she can bill me for the inspection...My other problems with that smoke alarm law arethe lies (they do not only get the numbers wrong, but they also say, that prevention (e. g. by better structural engineering) does not help),the questionable benefit (maybe i could buy something more useful for the same money... e. g. thick gypsum casings for my devices in my bedroom that I do not turn off in the night), andthe emotional reaction (I am automatically ridiculous and a nut, when I am worried about the paradox development of the death rate).

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2017, 05:42:59 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 06, 2017, 02:11:48 amthe conclusion comes first, i guess...just because someone says, that the smoke alarm woke him/her up, that does not prove, that he/she would have stayed asleep,if there was no smoke alarm.maybe it is my quackery/lie/paternalism allergy...regarding that US statistic, that seems to provide alternative facts regarding the german numbers: Even if the probability to die due to a fire rises by a factor of >2, if there is no working smoke alarm, there might be other factors, that really cause that higher risk (e. g. a frivolous use of open fire).Correlation is not causation: The Simpsons had that discussion, too:So I just continue to believe that fire is still dangerous (in spite of my professionally inspected smoke detectors)...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2017, 06:33:08 am
content: It sounds like some countries mandate a smoke alarm inspection like in the UK everyone thinks they have to have pat testing done and as soon as someone rthinks up a silly thing the insurers jump on the band wagon and use it as yet another excuse to deny claims.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 01:06:48 am
content: I don't like being mandated to put certain things in my own home. I wouldn't be comfortable not having smoke alarms though and would have them whether the government said I needed them or not, same with a CO alarm, if you have any fuel burning appliances then it's just common sense. Certainly a lot of people have died in fires that occurred while they slept. As cheap as they are, I can think of no reason to not have at least one on every floor. I don't need proof that they reduce the risk of me dying in a fire, it's plainly obvious to anyone with half a functioning brain that being awakened at the first sign of smoke is going to reduce the chance of dying in the ensuing fire.

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 02:42:19 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 07, 2017, 01:06:48 amok...but: why is the green line so flat then?is there anything stupid one can do wrong with those photo electric smoke detectors?besides stealing their batteries, because: the remote control needs batteries, too...

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 02:56:03 pm
content: I know of more people that was saved by their smoke detectors, this seems a little "tin foil hat"

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 03:22:08 pm
content: Quote from: RIDDICC on April 07, 2017, 02:42:19 pmI don't know, because other factors? I suspect it's one of those things that is really hard to measure because there are probably a lot of fires detected early on and put out by the resident before they got bad enough to require calling the fire department and evacuating. I've certainly been alerted to things that very well could have become an actual fire if left unnoticed. It's similar to the gun debate that rages over here, how do you measure the number of crimes that didn't occur because of knowledge that the potential victim is or may be armed?

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 03:24:03 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on April 07, 2017, 02:56:03 pmuhm?!i would like to point out kindly, that this kind of answer is no _answer_ in the real sense...btw:i do not know a single person personally, who even claims that, he/she has been saved by the smoke alert...seems like i only know people, who do not have unrequested fire events...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 03:31:40 pm
content: Well, I know several of them, and I went to school with a guy who fell asleep smoking and died in a house fire, it was determined that there was no working smoke alarms in the house.

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 04:33:53 pm
content: From "Twelve Monkey (1995)":Astrophysicist: "It's obscene, all the violence, [...]. You might say...we're the next endangered species...human beings!"So everybody (but me) thinks, that this weird trend in F.Rep.Germany must come from something else than those smoke detectors?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 04:50:37 pm
content: Yes, that seems to be the case.How could a smoke detector possibly increase the risk of dying in a fire? Even if it did nothing at all, surely it couldn't cause an increase?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 05:14:36 pm
content: Having the detector means there is a reliance on it, and this then leads to less concern about things like having flammable materials around, having flammable materials near sources of ignition, and being more risky with things regarding fire, because of the unconscious belief that there is a safety net there. Then you find that the detector either had a flat battery, or the battery was removed because of cooking triggering it, or it simply has failed for some reason.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 05:30:48 pm
content: I've been woken by smoke alarms twice in the middle of the night, so yes, they will wake me up.First time a family member was making hard boiled eggs on the stove, then got distracted and forgot about them. Evenually it boiled dry and started producing dense smoke as the eggs burned. Thick enough to stain the plaster above the stove. I had to repaint part of the wall and ceiling. The pan was ruined.Second time it was two teen girls playing with candles in their bedroom, eventually setting off their bedroom alarm. It woke me through two closed doors and in the opposite corner of the house. The wife slept through it, however. The kids got a big lecture in the morning...what they were doing and especially where they were doing it wasn't safe.And then there was the time someone started a fireplace fire without opening the damper. Smoke alarm went off. I wasn't sleeping that time, so it was fixed quickly.

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 06:24:30 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on April 07, 2017, 05:30:48 pmok... ic...I can't allow myself to use a stove/oven, that does not turn off itself after some minutes (they have something like a screen saver: when i dont touch the dials, they say: "bing" or "beep" respectively...)...Open fire is a complete no-go, because of my neurological condition, so that I do not even have matches/lighters...My 24Vdc cables have fuses at both ends...And my emergency power batteries use that LiFePO4 chemistry, that Boeing did not use...I hope, that I did not miss anything...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 06:45:35 pm
content: I've never seen a stove that automatically turns itself down, I guess they must exist but I would think that would be more of an annoyance than a help. I love my gas stove with good old fashioned mechanical valve knobs. Yes you need to be careful, but whenever one tries to make something idiot proof, the universe will find a better idiot.I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly don't rely on smoke alarms and behave any more carelessly knowing I have them. I mean I always wear a seatbelt in a car too that doesn't mean I drive like a madman and rely on the seatbelt to save me. It's just one more tool at my disposal should the unthinkable happen.It could be argued that a carbon monoxide alarm is even more important than a smoke alarm anywhere that has a fuel burning appliance. CO is colorless, odorless, and often kills people who are wide awake. The symptoms of CO poisoning creep up slowly and start with confusion, preventing many people from taking corrective action until it's too late. Not all cases are due to carelessness either, a malfunctioning appliance or leaky flue can let CO into the residence without anyone knowing. Just recently several people including emergency responders died in a hotel swimming pool facility due to a CO leak believed to have come from a malfunctioning pool heater.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 06:56:22 pm
content: I am living in northern Germany where smoke detectors are mandatory in each bedroom and each hallway.(Every state in Germany has different rules about smoke detectors)We are just renovating a house that will be rented out soon.So, as a matter of fact, I had the "Schornsteinfeger" = chimney sweeper at the house today to go over the rules.This guy knew what he was talking about and clearly stated that fire related injuries have been reduced dramatically since smoke detectors have been mandatory.In this part of Germany the chimney sweeper is coming once a year to check the heating, ovens and clean the chimney (Mandatory). However, he does NOT have to check the smoke detectors, this is the job of the people living in the house. And he definitely does not want to sell smoke detectors. He just gave me a suggestion to not get the very cheap detectors from ebay but also do not get the expensive detectors because they do not work better either.I don't believe there is a conspiracy in having smoke detectors installed.Nobody is making really big money on it and saving some people from a possible fire seems to be a very good thing.

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 07:46:54 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on April 07, 2017, 06:56:22 pmreduced dramatically? do u know the corresponding iCD-10 codes? I only found the terminal cases (ICD-10 codes: X0, X76 and Y26) and there was clearly _no_ dramatic reduction.even if the state legislation does not demand explicitly to inspect them with a specially certified licensed inspector once a year: there is still some federal law, that demands to take "every" "possible" measure to protect the renter (Source:Federal Erection Paper)... i. e.: in case of an unrequested fire event the landlord might face various legal problems, if he cannot "prove" that the smoke detector was "functional" somewhen in the nearer past.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 09:21:55 pm
content: Quote from: RIDDICC on April 07, 2017, 07:46:54 pmWell, I am a landlord and I know the rules and have lived by them.For the smoke detectors the same rules apply as to the gas line for the heater.I am keeping track of it on paper, once a year.As long as I do a nose (smell) inspection and visual inspection of the gas meter once a year and document it on paper with the date and gas meter count notification, I am good for the local and federal government and insurance company.I do not need to hire an inspector!I do the same once a year with a smoke detector.As long as the battery is ok at the time of the check and the smoke detector passes the self test, I write these findings down, I have proof that my obligations have been met.No need for any expensive inspector.I am not sure how you come up with your weird ideas.This is like arguing against seat belts in cars, because 1 ppm of people get trapped in a car and can not get out in time.Personally I think these rules around the smoke detectors in Germany make sense.And I do definitely do not agree with all governmental rules !

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 04:40:57 am
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on April 07, 2017, 09:21:55 pmThe feds say different in that linked paper. Do u want me to translate that article to ur native language?I asked my landlord if she could stop that malfeasance (because I was still unhappy with the legionella inspector visit) and she said: "No"Did u read that linked article, _b4_ u claim that _my_ ideas r weird? No? Why not?How did u come to the conclusion, that a smoke detector makes sense in F.Rep.Germany?Doesn't DIN 14676:2012 demand that u also check the openings of the device for obstructions?Oh! I almost forgot to repeat my previous question:Which diagnoses dramatically decreased due to the smoke detectors in the opinion of ur chimney inspector?At least not the final diagnoses, right? Or do u disagree with the Federal Statistical Office?Not so important, because those numbers make no sense?

author: dorin
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 08:40:32 am
content: What do you want to prove?The engineers have told you what is already common sense, thatin the event of smoke/fire, the device does its job anddecreasesthe chances of death/property damage by a certain amount, we don't know how much.For anything beyond that (i.e. how much does it decrease the chances vs. the cost of the device or how much does the installation of the device affect the initial probability of a fire event because people will be more careless, etc.) you are better off consulting some stats experts because this is not a trivial problem.But my guess is that, regardless of the expert conclusion, we are still gonna use smoke detectors just like we keep wearing bike helmets and having ABS on our cars.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 09:43:35 am
content: Quote from: RIDDICC on April 08, 2017, 04:40:57 amIf you are a conspiracy buff, there are much better things to go after.Don't spend your energy on smoke detectors.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 09:50:02 am
content: Look, I know it's a serious subject and there are language differences involved but I still can't quite get my head round the concept of an "unrequested fire".

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 10:36:42 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on April 08, 2017, 09:50:02 ammaybe i translated it too literally... that's what germans say, when they talk of accidents... e. g. a german telco once cancelled "unrequestedly" about 700 land lines of my employer...maybe i should better write "accidental fire"?

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 10:52:01 am
content: Quote from: dorin on April 08, 2017, 08:40:32 ami am quite open in that regard...i just smell b*llsh*t regarding those smoke detector mob activities...furthermore i would like to know, if there is something special i have to do with those smoke detectors, so that they r really useful (of course i do not mean "sell them at ebay")...Quote from: dorin on April 08, 2017, 08:40:32 amdoes it? but why does the green line look so weird?the "engineers" here often use words like "nut", "conspiracy" and "ridiculous", which is not only bad style..."the" engineers also told the jurists, that the immobiliser system of cars, CSS and interactive videotex service is safe...but in fact it is all broken and they still cant even build a touchless car key, that uses one-time-pad...Quote from: dorin on April 08, 2017, 08:40:32 amthey r even worse (as i said b4): they even make up their numbers...Quote from: dorin on April 08, 2017, 08:40:32 ammaybe...and some people may still feel bad when a cat crosses their path...

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 10:54:01 am
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on April 08, 2017, 09:43:35 amand that sounds to me like a conspiracy against the Federal Erection Paper and against DIN 14676:2012...

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 11:38:56 am
content: I'm assuming Federal Erection Paper is a translation issue again. I'm assuming you mean building or construction rather than an erect penis. And maybe report instead of paper?The real question is, what do Geman laws and regulations have to do with a global electronics discussion forum?

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 12:12:38 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on April 08, 2017, 11:38:56 am"erection" means "something erected" according toMerriam Webster... i dont know how u can think of something else than a house... Google Translate thinks, 2, that "Bau" (german) is an "erection" (english)...since other countries on this globe seem to have more experiences with smoke detectors, i hoped that i could get useful information here... at least some users here seem to share my concerns, which is better than being alone with governmental/insurance-related liars...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 01:38:57 pm
content: A nice summary of all the rules for each state:https://www.test.de/Rauchmelder-Welche-Vorschriften-in-Ihrem-Bundesland-gelten-4485955-0/(German text). And if you think that smoke detectors are nonsense then ask your local fire brigade.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 01:40:54 pm
content: Yes, that's a POSSIBLE translation of erection when used in the right context, usually when talking about a particular physical structure. This was not the right context. As you used it, English speakers will have to consciously reject the penis meaning as it doesn't read contextually (neither Federal or Paper helps identify it as a construction term). I'm sure German has similar gotchas for the non-German speaker as well.Google translate of "Landesbauordnungen" gives me "State Building Regulations", which is a comfortable phrasing, if that's indeed what you meant. There are enough genuine German-English speakers here to correct me if google is incorrect.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 01:58:08 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on April 08, 2017, 11:38:56 amI don't know. From a EE point of view smoke detectors are boring, just a LED and photo transistor in a small chamber plus a MC145012 or similar. Maybe someone tries to get more views on youtube. They've just introduced a new rule about moneytizing videos and you need to have 10k views in total at least.

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 03:49:20 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on April 08, 2017, 01:40:54 pmI cant believe this... of cause we are talking of smoke detectors in physical structures and federal law and state law... I do not c any room for a misunderstanding...I will not talk about allegedly bad translation any further...

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 03:58:00 pm
content: Quote from: madires on April 08, 2017, 01:38:57 pmthat test.de page does not say a word about inspections and omits hereby an allegedly important safety measure... qedthe fire brigade does not do any research and i would prefer not to talk to people who r mentally troubled by pictures of dead people and other circumstances...so neither politicians nor insurances nor psychologists nor biologists nor engineers can answer my questions...i conclude,that there is no reputable research in this area, andthat the promised decrease did not happen in F.Rep.Germany...

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 05:18:53 pm
content: Somehow do not think a smoke detector would have helped at all here, the massive pall of black smoke and soot burned for days, and pretty much every car has marks on it from this falling in the rain.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 05:51:24 pm
content: Quote from: RIDDICC on April 08, 2017, 03:58:00 pmGUY, you don't eat the head. All the world know that when state daddy wants to save lifes, they do it by business.The solution is very easy , if you don't want that an strange people go in on his home ,you have the right of deny the entry(now ,you assume all the consequencies).Apart, here there is an other question , if you don't install the sensor or dont allow the inspection ,are there fine? why the daddy state have to put fines when the crime don't perjudice to third people?By example : if i don't put the belt or the helmet and i suffer an accident Whom do i harm?

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 06:10:12 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on April 08, 2017, 05:18:53 pmSorry , that is a falacy. At first place, had the warehouse a fireguard units(like the petrol refineries)? Sure that no ,so if they have to wait that the firefighter arrived , the warehouse have already burnt.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 07:04:23 pm
content: Still waiting for the final incident report, but the fire apparently started around 9AM, close to where there was welding and grinding being done, and this unfortunately was next to a candle factory, which had a little stockpile of wax on site. There seems to be an issue with the fire fighting equipment being not rated for this, and the local water mains pressure dropped drastically with 40 fire engines attempting to all draw water off to fight the fire.The warehouse did have overhead sprinklers, and these probably were in working order, but as the warehouse is on land owned by the state rail company, and the warehouse was leased out as a factory, along with other parts being used as warehousing, there are issues with who is in charge of what.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 03:01:58 pm
content: Quoteweak heart,alarm goes off and the shock of the sudden noise triggers a heart attack

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 04:30:58 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 22, 2021, 03:01:58 pmYou were overdue for replacement anyway, if that happens!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 10:56:52 pm
content: I know (knew) somebody who died in a fire in his apartment after he left something on the stove and fell asleep, he had disabled the smoke alarm so he could vape indoors. A long time friend of mine narrowly escaped a fire that destroyed his mobile home, he was drinking and also left something cooking on the stove and fell asleep, he had not intentionally disabled his alarm but he's kind of a slob and has a tendency to not maintain things, the battery in his alarm was dead and he was awakened by drips of burning molten plastic from the ceiling trim falling on him.I see no possible downside of having smoke alarms, they are cheap, dependable, readily available and absolutely save lives when fires break out, buying a few precious minutes to get out before one succumbs to smoke and fumes. I would take issue with requiring inspections though, I'm fully capable of inspecting and maintaining my own alarms. The fact that some people such as that friend of mine are too lazy is not a reason to force me to pay someone to come out and inspect mine. The only possible argument I could find against smoke alarms is if they had a significant history of starting fires themselves, but I have never heard of that happening.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 10:58:38 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 22, 2021, 03:01:58 pmThe likely alternative I suppose is to die of smoke inhalation or burn up, generally I think a heart attack is preferable to that.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 12:12:05 am
content: how will intelligence agencys's spy on us?with out a smoke detector mandate.not everyone has the internet , so were will they install eavesdropping devices?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 02:29:27 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 27, 2021, 10:56:52 pmThe solution: Send inspectors only to people who need it!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 05:31:07 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on February 28, 2021, 02:29:27 amWell, that's a nice thought.I think a better solution though is to educate the public and strongly recommend that everyone install smoke alarms in their home and test them regularly. Require landlords and house builders to include one, but then recognize that at some point you can't be everyone's nanny, ultimately it is up to the individual to take care of these things. Some people won't but that is inevitable. Some people also won't exercise or eat healthy, or refrain from drinking to excess or smoking, or engaging in various risky activities. Can't save everyone from themselves, but you can encourage people to be safe and provide them with all the information they need. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, so don't waste time trying to force it.

author: bill_c
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 06:46:08 am
content: The thing is, while you are sleeping, you can't smell the smoke, it doesn't wake you up.As the smoke gets worse, it affects the lungs, like a sudden asthma attack.Without an alarm, you don't wake up ever again, you may very well be dead from the smoke long before it turns into a fire.I know first hand just how important smoke detectors are. When I first woke up, I couldn't understand why it was beeping, didn't see signs of fire or smell smoke.It wasn't until I turned on the lights and my eyes half adjusted to the brightness, that I could even see the smoke. It was two minutes from when I woke before I could even begin to smell the smoke, a few minutes later I could smell the full strength of the acrid smoke. It didn't progress beyond the smoldering stage so I quickly tossed some water on it and opened all the doors to vent the place.It was that night about 15 years ago that I realized how wrong I was in thinking smoke detectors are not important.

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 07:21:09 am
content: and how do u explain the increase in terminal smoke poisoning and in final falls in F.Rep.Germ?https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Death-per-deaths.svgi mean: maybe they save some, but kill others?-arne

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 08:00:09 am
content: Quote from: RIDDICC on February 28, 2021, 07:21:09 amI don't know the explanation but surely you aren't seriously suggesting that the smoke detectors are the cause of the increased deaths? What is your suspected link there? How does a smoke alarm kill somebody? I think maybe you need to contemplate the difference between correlation and causation.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 08:19:19 am
content: In the UK you have to have home insurance if you have a mortgage (bank wants you to protect their investment), home insurance will normally ask you to confirm you have a smoke alarm. Obviously they can only believe you. It makes sense to have them.

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 10:51:51 am
content: Quoter u aware, that u all repeat the claim again and again?and u refer to some few cases, were the smoke detector allegedly helped...that is not enough for my taste.what if people die at an elevated rate, because: they try to extinguish a fire without protection and to silence a smoke alarm at the ceiling...?are they less important than the (possibly fewer) people, who had a flaming pot in their kitchen?-arne

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 02:25:36 pm
content: Quote from: RIDDICC on February 28, 2021, 10:51:51 amThe death rate per 1,000 reported home fires was more than twice as high in homes that did not have any working smoke alarms (12.3 deaths per 1,000 fires), either because no smoke alarm was present or an alarm was present but did not operate), as it was in homes with working smoke alarms (5.7 per 1,000 fires).Let's find something else to talk about, and make sure the batteries in your units are in good shape!https://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Research/Data-research-and-tools/Detection-and-Signaling/Smoke-Alarms-in-US-Home-Fires

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 03:08:12 pm
content: Quotemight be coincidencial, because: homes with good smoke detectors have also good other habits (e. g. regarding safe candle practices, low age devices).of course the doubled final fall rate in F.Rep.Germ since 2007 can be caused by something else than smoke detectors (but: that s why i m asking here).-arne

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 06:02:36 pm
content: Quote from: RIDDICC on February 28, 2021, 03:08:12 pmNothing is perfect- smoke detectors, people, ... nothing. So, you can never be exactly 100% sure of anything. That's life.The null hypothesis on smoke detectors is that if you get woken up on the first sign of smoke, you have a chance to get out. The statistics support that hypothesis with a very high degree of confidence > 99.99%.All you have done until now is raise the (valid) point that there is a non zero chance that the hypothesis is wrong. What you haven't done, is propose an alternative hypothesis that explains the statistics equally well.If you don't have a solid and testable hypothesis - you are in conspiracy theory territory.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 07:23:16 pm
content: Quote from: RIDDICC on February 28, 2021, 10:51:51 amOk you're just being an idiot now. It's clear that you've come here either to troll people, or looking for someone to support your nutty belief and when you get answers you don't want to hear you just keep repeating the question. I'm done wasting my time discussing this with you. If you don't want to have a smoke alarm that's your choice, but only an imbecile would seriously suggest that they somehow cause deaths.

author: RIDDICC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 08:59:26 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on February 28, 2021, 06:02:36 pmuhm?! i passed an exam in stochastics I to IV...so it is hard for me to believe, that u really think, that u r right...all u have is a correlation.what if i make a study, that says:"The death rate per 1,000 reported home fires was more than thrice as high in homes that did not have good fire protection habits (31 deaths per 1000 fires), as it was in homes with good fire protection habits (10 per 1000 fires)."?cant u c, that smoke detectors might be an irrelevant or even paradox piece in the security concept?if u do 9 things right and thing #10 wrong, the outcome might be still better, than it would be, if u do thing #10 right and the other 9 things wrong.but interesting is, that there r about 5 deaths in 1000 fires despite a smoke detector.Quote from: james_sno, it is not. My government forces me to have two for appr. 17USD/year.how do u explain the rapid and strong increase of falls and smoke intoxications since this new legislation started to become effective.-arne

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 09:37:48 pm
content: Quote from: RIDDICC on February 28, 2021, 08:59:26 pmSo your alternative hypothesis is "homes that have good fire prevention habits have lower death rates than homes with poor fire prevention habits". Fine - it is obviously true that if your home has good fire prevention habits, then the chance of a fire starting in the first place is lower.However; Death doesn't care if the fire started in a good home or a bad home. Death only cares that a fire was started... good, bad, or indifferent home. The stats show that once a fire starts, your chances of escaping Death are much better with a smoke detector.One precaution (good habits) doesn't alter the other (smoke detector), they are statistically independent variables - you can get the benefit of both!If we drew a Venn diagram of the two sets, we would probably see a big overlap between the two groups.Why would you place yourself in the somewhat esoteric group of "good habits" and "no detector"? It doesn't make any sense, and you know it!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 06:24:15 pm
content: Quote from: RIDDICC on February 28, 2021, 03:08:12 pmFor the love of god shut up! You are talking rubbish and polluting this thread.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 07:23:30 pm
content: He started the thread.I'm curious about when we started feeding one thread trolls though.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 08:52:04 pm
content: God has he been going that long?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 09:34:43 pm
content: (Deleted)

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 10:07:56 pm
content: whilst on the subject of smoke detectors remember there not for life,most manufacturers recommend replacement after 10 years.Also dont just rely on pushing the test button ,get some smoke into them

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 10:15:44 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on March 01, 2021, 10:07:56 pmIn practice I don't recall ever having one fail though, if anything some of the really old ones seem to be excessively sensitive, I still remember my grandmother had one of the very first ones that came on the market and when I was a kid that thing would go off every time she cooked bacon. There is one at our cabin that is at least 40 years old and it works fine, it's near the kitchen area and I set it off recently when I spilled a few drips in the oven. Certainly not a bad idea to properly test them though, you can even buy cans of "smoke" specifically made for testing detectors. I also like redundancy so I have one in almost every room of my house, and I have a mix of battery and mains powered units.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 10:21:04 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 01, 2021, 10:15:44 pmThe detectors in this house are all linked via the mains wiring, so if one goes off, they all go off... very loud! - they won't go off from cooking bacon, but burning toast really bad will do it (ask me how I know!)Linking the detectors is a good idea if there are remote rooms in the house, where you might not hear the alarm if you sleep far away.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 10:44:04 pm
content: I think they are required to be linked now in new homes but you don't have to retrofit older homes. There are situations where linked detectors could be beneficial although in most cases I prefer standalone so that I can tell easily where the source of the smoke is and investigate quickly. The detectors are sensitive enough that by the time the one in the room I'm in or near goes off I can still likely escape if it has reached that point.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 10:54:14 pm
content: I do both - the linked units, plus separate battery powered ones in strategic locations. Better safe than sorry, with so much electronic equipment to go wrong!

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 11:06:55 pm
content: I would subscribe to the other factors theory. Some fire experts here in the US believe that the "open concept" design fad which has swept the US and possibly other parts of the world has resulted in faster fire spread, blocking escape routes and increasing fire severity prior to smoke arrival at the detectors. There are other changes behavioral and demographic that could also contribute.The only conclusions I would draw are that smoke detectors are not 100% effective at preventing death and that given the testimonials that show that they have saved some lives they are a damned cheap way to help reduce fire deaths. For the cost of a few beers or an abominably cheap DMM you can buy a reasonable increment of protection.If you want something to rail against try this. At least some local codes in the US prevent installation of smoke detectors in kitchens and garages, two of the most likely points of fire initiation. Why? Too many false alarms.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 11:20:15 pm
content: QuoteHeat detectors are the weapon of choice in those locations,avoids the little boy calling wolf situation.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 01:53:21 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on March 01, 2021, 11:20:15 pmDon't know the parameters on heat detectors. In my garage a wood stove, welding and many other heat sources exist as do in the kitchen. If they trigger on air temperature, like typical wax or woods metal sprinkler systems the problem is that they trigger much later than a smoke detector. better than nothing. Perhaps a combined system with smoke detector to wake people up and heat detector to call fire department.in my case there is no automatic call to the fire department so I make the decision as to whether it is a false alarm. Usually I know if I am burning dinner or have driven an oil burning car into the garage.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 06:06:40 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 01, 2021, 11:06:55 pmI've thought that open concept nonsense was the most idiotic thing right from the very start. It looks great in pictures but usually the goal is to live in a house rather than just use it for photo shoots. I've been in quite a few houses like that and they're noisy, if you have multiple different people and some want to watch TV, some want to listen to music, some want to have a conversation, somebody wants to cook in the kitchen, if most of the living space is one big open area it all blends together. Walls were invented for a reason, to cordon off different areas being used for different purposes. Seems like every one of those shows where they're renovating old houses they knock out the wall around the kitchen and I always shake my head. Kitchens are noisy, the last thing I want is for the kitchen to be part of my living room. I'm hopeful that Covid with work/school from home puts an end to that ridiculous fad.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 06:10:29 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 01, 2021, 11:06:55 pmKitchen I can understand, lots of false alarms often leads people to disable the alarm. The original hardwired smoke alarm my house was built with is at the end of the hall right smack in the center of the upper floor where the hallway, kitchen, stairway and living room meet. I added one out in the garage around 15 years ago and in that time I've never had a false alarm out there.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 07:26:14 am
content: I put one in the kitchen once, and removed it a week later. Just cooking up crisp bacon was enough to set it off. Too sensitive.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 07:47:40 am
content: I think the 10 years is more of a legal thing. For something that is effectively safety critical they have to estimate how long it will last and warn you that you have to change it or they will get sued when people die in fires. I design controller for automotive fans that are rated to 40'000 hours, this is an estimate as the manufacturer still has them on test now to prove it. The salesman would tell me every time they reached a new milestone.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 03:43:23 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 02, 2021, 07:47:40 amThat's almost 5 years of continuous, constant on use... awesome, I want that vehicle!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 06:11:08 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on March 02, 2021, 03:43:23 pmWhen I spoke to one UK auto maker of "cheap" "performance" cars who is still riding high in their heads on the fumes of their former glory whilst being sold on constantly they wanted me to design a controller for a brushed fan. I suggested that they were actually wasting their money on a fan/controller combo that was more expensive than a brushless fan. I then had to explain what one was and that yes it costs more but lasts 4 times longer (same manufacturer brushed fans are 10'000 hrs) they said that would mean they did not sell spares......Cars I gather are designed for about 3'000 operating hours but other vehicles out there are meant to last 50'000 hours like busses, they run 16 hrs a day most days of the year and they don't get any ram air cooling with the engine in the back so have to run fans all the time. They have great appreciation for brushless fans and the speed controlling of them as this saves enormous amounts for fuel when your "fan deck" uses 3.2 kWh when run at full speed (check out fan laws). Last time I made a rough calculation running a fan at 50% speed rather than thermostatically turning it on and off with a 50/50 ratio would save £8'000 worth of fuel over the 40'000 hours the fan was warranted to run for which rather justifies paying £150 for a fan instead of £60

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 06:48:36 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 02, 2021, 06:11:08 pmYou should have told them the bearings still wear out, they'll make a fortune!Auto makers hate it when anything breaks in the warranty period, and love anything that self destructs the day after it expires!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 06:52:32 pm
content: To be fair unless you have a car that just runs the fan as soon as you turn the air con on and you always have the air con on you hardly use your radiator fan in a car as the ram air does the cooling. I guess the reason why my car turns the fan on as soon as i put the AC on is because Ford was too cheap to include a sensor in the refrigerant circuit to turn the fan on when actually needed. Same as my AC always runs at 3C with no thermostat, if i don't want it quite so cold (always) I have to turn the heat on and control the temperature by adding heat back into overcooled air.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 07:40:00 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 02, 2021, 06:52:32 pmAdding heat back into the cooled air isn't as crazy as it sounds, the system is basically acting like a dehumidifier at that point, which also increases comfort inside the vehicle.In many parts of the world you are stuck in traffic most of the time (not enough ram air) so the fans are working full tilt for the whole trip...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 07:44:47 pm
content: Yes I use my AC as much in winter to dehumidify as I do to cool me in the summer, but good systems have a specific dehumidify setting, a good system would sense the humidity and only overcool + reheat when needed, but this all costs money so auto makers do not bother never mind give you a brushless fan that will outlive the car 10 times over.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 11:10:26 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 02, 2021, 06:52:32 pmYou sure need the fan when you are in city traffic or stopped at traffic signals though. I have had fans fail before, both electric and engine driven with a thermal clutch. On the highway everything is fine, but as soon as you are moving slowly or stopped the engine starts to overheat. Sometimes turning the cabin heat on full blast is enough to help but that is very uncomfortable on a hot day.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 11:58:15 pm
content: Quote from: RIDDICC on April 05, 2017, 05:02:45 pmI suspect that people usually watch youtube videos, because they find them nice, easy to watch, fun and educational. Among many other reasons.Assuming I found the correct video, which you don't seem to have linked to. It seems to not be the most interesting, engaging, educational, factually correct and best quality video, I've ever seen on youtube.It would seem other viewers, agree with me, because (at the time I made this post) you seem to have amassed, ONE subscriber in total (please don't tell me YOU or someone you know, are that subscriber). ONLY 4 likes (so far), and an eye-watering 19 DISLIKES/negatives.Watching it seems to consist of you holding up sheets of paper, with computer printed text on them. But some have corrections in pen, on them, in hand writing. Later, you seem to be showing a graph, which doesn't seem to be clearly visible enough at that distance, and the comments seem to agree, that it hasn't been factually proved/confirmed.I.e. Viewers don't seem to think you have produced the best of videos.There are information sources available, on how to make better youtube videos.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 02:58:09 am
content: Watching videos is time consuming and tedious. Some people create videos which are entertaining and interesting to watch, Dave for example, and Big Clive, Project Farm and a few others, they are all engaging, informative and entertaining. A lot of other videos are, to put it bluntly, crap. Something that would have better as a written article but someone was too lazy to write it up.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 05:22:52 am
content: Using video to convey text slowly is the definition of time-wasting. I could have read all that text in 10 seconds or less.It appears your real issue is with the German authorities. I'd suggest that an international forum may not be the best place to promote this. I certainly can't do anything about it.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 07:44:29 am
content: There are a fare few videos out there with very little content and only really serve the purpose of increasing humanities carbo footprint. If a video does not have moving picture and sound then it did not need to be a video. The BBC are good at this too, they will produce a short video with no AV content, almost a static image or a scene of no importance and then put words up on the screen. underneath the video those same words are repeated....