solar instalation rulkes for feed-in tarrifs - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 04:28:18 pm
content: As I'm building my dad a very solid shed I was thinking it might be a good time to start putting solar panels up, as the area of the roof could yield as much as 1KW/h it's way more than what he uses most of the time so either i store it for later use which is inefficient and will get costly on batteries or we sell it back to the grid. But what regulations govern being able to sell back to the grid ?, as far as i know the installation needs a certificate from an authorized installer. Is there any way of getting my own installation checked over and certified ? is it worth it ?

author: Vgkid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 05:22:29 pm
content: I assume you inverter is able to be grid tied, you will also need a power disconnect(i know you need them with generators). Lets see what others say.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 05:35:44 pm
content: Well yes the idea would be to get a grid tie inverter. At the moment have nothing so don't want to commit to buying anything until I know it's approved and going to be ok

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 05:50:13 pm
content: Is there no mention of back-feeding the grid on the website of your local electric authority?Perhaps all the electric utilities in your entire country are governed uniformly, but in my country that is a very local question that can only be answered locally.It seems unlikely that people would be selling inverters capable of back-feeding the public grid if the local authorities didn't allow it.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 06:25:13 pm
content: No my utility company have no clue and just want to see a certificate. Buying a grid tie inverter to just chuck power back into the grid out of the goodness of my heart for free is one thing, using it as the basis for the utility company to pay me for my electric may be another, I'm not taking risks. There is of course also the matter of the general wiring of the panels, my installation would need inspecting and approving with a certificate given for it. As it is it would take 10 years for the panels to pay for themselves, paying for them to be installed will just make the project pointless.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 06:30:15 pm
content: The utility company should be able to tell you but... you may need to talk to the company which does the distribution of electricity. A couple of years ago the companies generating&selling electricity and the companies managing electricity distribution got split up. Over here you just have to tell the distribution company to install a meter which measures incoming and outgoing seperately. After that your supplier should give you your money back. But... the price you get is much lower than what you pay because what you pay also consists of distribution costs and taxes.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 06:40:06 pm
content: Yes here the two have been seperate for year thanks to the wonders of a competitive market and privatization which just means that any of the major suppliers will raise their prices anyway because it just gives other others leave to do so as well.Feed in tariffs used to be 50p/KW while most of us were buying at 15p/KW. I highly dissagreed with this anyway as it gave the technology a bad name and gave naysayers plenty of amunition and basicallt meant that if you are rich and can afford the installation costs you are getting even richer off the back of poor people struggling to pay their bills. If anyone ever told you that the Uk is a fair an democratic country don't listen to them !Last I asked my utility company they said only installations carried out by an MCS approved installer would be eligible. I have 90W of panels on my shed at home that put up to 30W into the grid at peak free of charge as i'm rarely here to use it. I've i'm paying £2000 for panels I want my bloody money back.

author: sunnyhighway
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 06:47:43 pm
content: It's a billing issue.If you are lucky enough to have an old analog power meter, you have the highest return on investment. During daytime the meter just runs slower or even backwards if you produce more than you use. If you have a more modern meter you have to tell the power company about it. Otherwise they will not accept the readings from the feed-in counter on your power meter.These modern meter are more expensive for the power company, but they can now easaly earn that back by buying your power for al lower amount of money than the power they deliver to you.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 06:49:53 pm
content: I think they are also trying to make sure they are not buying electric from me at a premium that I'm making by running a generator in my shedI don't know what the current feedback tariff is but it went down drastically.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 08:43:18 pm
content: Best bet is to contact Kibi on the forum here, he is in the UK and has solar installed on his shed.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 09:03:33 pm
content: Don't know what an inspection for grid tie would cost but when I built a stand alone wind turbine set and needed a certificate to get the government grant the company that was going to do the inspection (they had to be registered to carry this out) just asked for 50% of whatever the grant would be as the grant would be around £1500 for this size installation and the survey took half an hour and according to the company the feed cable I had installed was too big, it was the size recommended by the turbine manufacturer Bergey. I decided that asking for half the grant like that was dishonest and told them to take a long walk of a short pier.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 09:08:58 pm
content: IMHO a big problem with solar energy is company gobbling up the government grants.edit:IMHO a big problem with solar energy is installation companies gobbling up the government grants.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 09:11:51 pm
content: That is why i want to install my own, just the panel cost for 720W which is as many 1.2x0.54m panels as I can fit is £1800 and will take up to 10 years to recupe before i consider inverter and inspection costs.

author: LukeW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 10:38:28 pm
content: QuoteWhenever somebody says "kW/h" it makes engineering baby Jesus cry.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 02:06:58 am
content: 10 years is way too long for something to pay back for itself. What if you decide to move? The new owners are not going to pay top money for your solar panels. I know I wouldn't. Better put your money in a savings account. Interest rates will rise in 3 to 4 years.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 05:56:02 am
content: Quote from: LukeW on August 23, 2014, 10:38:28 pmHe probably meant 1kW max.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 06:59:19 am
content: Quote from: zapta on August 24, 2014, 05:56:02 amI meant that taking into consideration realistic light levels the area of the roof could produce up to 1KW of power every hour I thought that was KW/h ? the roof is 3x3.6m, I had assumed 25% efficiency of the panels but it would seem that they are 15% or at least the cheap ones are so that is 648W/h

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 07:01:43 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 24, 2014, 02:06:58 amYes i can invest my money and get 6.5% now so yes a 10 year return is too long as i can get interest on my money and use it in a year or two to buy panels for half the price and hopefully by then regulations have come round to DIY installations.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 07:22:00 am
content: Well, 1 kW power production for the duration of 1 hour is 1 kWh. Also known as 3.6 MJ.Poor engineering baby jesus.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 07:23:29 am
content: I wonder how much my utility company will offer to pay me if i phone in and tell them that I wan to sell them 10MJ per day..........

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 07:37:03 am
content: As with all things, depends on the person you get on the phone.Someone with even the remotest technical clue in energy production will not blink an eye at the use of megajoule vs kilowatt-hour. But then, what are the chances of getting to talk to someone with even the remotest technical clue on your first 10 telephone attempts.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 07:42:40 am
content: first 10 attempts ? you mean 10 Kilo-attempts ? yea i had to drag out of the last utility company that they didn't mind me using a GTI providing it was CE marked.

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 08:12:40 am
content: I have a friend with solar panels at home, and can ask tomorrow, but he is not technical in any way.Had a look and did see this, although no doubt I am looking at the wrong thing again!http://www.microgenerationcertification.org/mcs-standards/installer-standards

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 08:14:50 am
content: yes they keep banging on about certified installers. The whole point is that I'm not certified so want to install it and then get it externally certified.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 08:42:54 am
content: Those organizations and their certification is all about money lots of it. The costs of certification for these government schemes can be astronomical which is one reason they want so much for an installation or inspection but it is also why they charge so much for certification, they do not want every one man band electrician doing the job as the price would fall. Cartel is the word or alternative energy Mafia name your name.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 08:45:30 am
content: indeed, as i keep saying it is the bureaucracy that surrounds solar and the stupid admin charges that give it a bad name and make it look expensive, what is the payback time on a new build coal power station ? i bet something like 10 years......

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 08:53:56 am
content: 20 years is more likely, as the financiers like to spread out the return to get more out with a lower payment. As a typical power station will easily last 40 years without major work, and can then have a refurbish and get another 20 years with improved tech this is common.Like how you can finance a car over 3, 4, 5 or even 7 years now, and a house you can do over 40 years now as well.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 08:58:52 am
content: Well then solar panels are officially viable and not as costly as people make out. The problem with naysayers is they act like you just promised the earth and proceed to prove the obvious by saying that it takes years to get your money back. Well the panels will last at least 25 years, pay for themselves in 10 so that is a total return of 250%, wow I'd take that any day and considering electric prices will rise most likely a 300% lifetime return, on average that is 10% per year which is far better than the bank gives you or my own investment scheme that gets me 6.5%, but you have to commit for 25 years, not bad considering a power station is committed for 40+ years.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 09:53:49 am
content: I think this is what you need to checkhttp://www.microgenerationcertification.org/You may or may not be able to find a local installer that will certify your work. I'm pretty sure you don't get the feed in tariffs without this, they are extremely fussy about everything (right down to cable clips) and it gets double checked by an auditor from the power company, the whole thing is layers of regulation. At least that's how it was on the project I seen done.I wonder if it's easier to just dump any excess into something like an immersion heater and save on hot water fuel bills, just a thought.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 10:23:13 am
content: Yea well that's why at my house I just have 30W pumping back into the grid and don't give a rats ass if I'm using it or not, mostly not as i'm at work during the day. To bother about selling it back i need a decent size installation which I could put on my dads new shed roof but if there are layers of tape and costs then it's not worth it, I can't see any local installer wanting to check my work, they will either want to do it themselves or just fail it anyway. I suppose i could find out how much they want for an installation but I'm not optimistic. He does not use much hot water and already has an efficient boiler, if I'm going to heat water I may as well just use water heating panels.The other option is to store it in batteries but that just puts the cost right up. as I'd need to spend £60-100 for every 110Ah 12V battery that can store 660W so I'd need a few of those.

author: penfold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 12:25:26 pm
content: One of the big matters with the subsidised feed-in tariffs and promotion of PV uptake is to boost the employment and training of individuals to perform the installation. And unfortunately that really comes down to liability and insurance. So, you can feel free to generate the paper trail, but unless it leads back to somebody who will be able to pay up when something goes wrong, nobody's going to touch it to sign it off.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 12:29:08 pm
content: To be honet I can't see much skill being required to setup solar panels. they all have unified plugs now, you buy the adapters off the shelf to connect them together and you plug them into an off the shelf GTI, no huge skill base to create, I could do it in my sleep. All we have achieved is to make solar unachievable as more costs than necessary have been artificially added making it not viable. So whereas i could make a decent contribution do the environment and us avoid emissions fines I am tied down to funding EU fines for emissions later or for us to "buy" "carbon credits"

author: penfold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 02:49:29 pm
content: Perhaps you should have a proper read of the regulations, there's a lot thats has to be considered.There's nothing to stop you taking the course to become a qualified installer... but for every budding DIY installer, there'll be 10 who want to get a much more appreciable installation performed by a qualified installer, and that remaining 10% who don't manage it are just another few the grid managers don't have to worry about load levelling for. The real cost is in the management of the competency of the auditors who manage the competency of the installers and final installation sign off, that's an area you wouldn't avoid by getting a person in to sign it off. And something makes me think that the reduction of potential fires, electrocutions and people being hit by panels falling off roofs kinda justifies that cost.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 02:52:38 pm
content: Well that is the point, i have no interest in going into the business of installing panels, but I don't want to pay so much for an installation that I'll never make my money back. As far as components go they are off the shelf and therefore should already be certified in themselves. Yes there is a mechanical aspect to consider but a 5 degree inclination roof means new to no chance of the panels sliding

author: penfold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 02:58:37 pm
content: High wind? Can you verify that the roof can support the weight?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 03:00:17 pm
content: oh sure 3/4" floor boards on 2"x2" beams that can be as close as 1' apart, the roof needs to be walked on so it will take panels

author: Kibi
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 03:05:38 pm
content: Hi SimonThe system that I have on my workshop is off-grid and all my energy is stored in lead batteries, so the specifics of my system do not really apply to this topic. However, the FIT thing has been pretty well discussed so far.The UK rules as I understand them are that you cannot back feed into the grid without your energy company knowing about it and they only want to know about MCS certified systems.Most of these new digital meters nowadays will do one of three things when back fed, depending on it's type.1) Latch an alarm status to alert the meter reader person when they next come around.2) Disregard any back fed energy (basically stand still no matter how much energy is going into the grid).3) Count back fed energy in the opposite direction (i.e. your meter will count forwards and charge you your KW/h rate for energy that you are back feeding)!!Apparently, one way around this with a GTI system is to devise a system which will ensure that no energy is back fed into theGRID. Back feed into your house, but as your energy meter reaches a zero point, switch useful loads on like an immersion heater. You can get a 3KW immersion heater down to 750W by connecting it up to a 110V supply via a site transformer. This of course is also illegal, but it's more difficult for the energy company to find out about.I know of a chap who uses a network of Arduinos to measure energy production and consumption around his house to ensure that no back feeding takes place. I think he is using OpenEnergyMonitor.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 03:10:32 pm
content: yea it's basically a waste of time. Solar installations in the UK are obviously just for rich people and snobs. The only way out would be to disconnect the house and use a 3+KW inverter. Naturally that all also costs way more than it's worth.I may get a quote for an installation but I doubt it will be worth it.

author: denelec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 03:19:26 pm
content: The output of the solar panels will vary according to the time of the day and the season.In the UK, you can expect about 1000kWh/m2of solar irradiation per year.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_the_United_KingdomYou will have to multiply that number by the efficiency of your panels.So if you have 1m2of 15% efficient panels (about 150W), you can expect an annual production of about 150kWh.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 03:24:24 pm
content: err no 1000W/m2 is on the equator at midday in the middle of summer. The figures given on that wikipedia page are confusing at best, they need clarifying. Whoever wrote one of those paragraphs is either trying to bend the truth or has not proof read their own work and made sure it makes sense.

author: denelec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 04:05:25 pm
content: Yes, 1000W/m2at midday at the equator is correct. It is a peakpower.1000kWh/m2per year is also correct. It represents the annualenergyreceived by the sun in the southern Uk.But the two numbers 1000 is just a coincidence.If you live in Scotland, the annual energy received will be around 800kWh/m2per year.Your power will vary during the day (0 at night) and will be greater in summer then winter.If you want to know the annualenergyproduction of your panels, you must integrate the power during one year.The power is measured in watts and the energy is measured in kWh (1000W during one hour).It is the energy that matters. You will be paid for the energy, not the power.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 04:07:39 pm
content: ah yes sorry misread. Still that paragraph on wikipedia is not very clear. I'd make about £150 per year if selling back at 15p/KW

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 10:55:42 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 24, 2014, 04:07:39 pmIf you base that on the 1000 kWh/m²/year number for _insolation_, and thinking of using a 1m² panel, then no, you would not. Unless you have some magic solar panel that has 100% efficiency, an absolutely no losses in the cabling, inverter, etc.Good panels, that are mass produced, can nowdays achieve 20%. That means that at best you get 200 kWh/m²/year out of the 1 m² panel. Solar inverters are not 100% efficient either. While you can see numbers like up to 99% or thereabouts, that is only for optimal conditions, which you will never have constantly. I often see 90% used as a base, to be on the safe side. That means it reduces further to 200 * 0.9 = 180 kWh/m²/year.Oh, and the insolation number is to be taken with caution as well. Unless you have optimal orientation of the panel, and nothing that will cast shadows during sunlight times, you won't reach that to begin with. So, under rather optimal conditions with a very good, modern panel you wuld get 180 * 0.15 = £27 per year from a 1m² panel if you sell it for the 15 pence per kWh you mentioned. Assuming there is no degradation of the panel, and nothing breaks and needs to be replaced/repaired, that would be £270 for 10 years or £540 for 20 years.Now, how much does the panel cost, the cabling, the inverter, etc.? Substract that and you get the net profit. Oh, and if you sell it to the grid, you probably would have to pay taxes for those £27/year as well.Greetings,Chris

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 10:59:11 pm
content: I have 3x3.6m of space, but still pointless as you say.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2014, 01:51:53 am
content: Quote from: Simon on August 24, 2014, 07:23:29 amEven if they will not pay you much, you will still learn a lot along the way. That's also something

author: denelec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2014, 10:27:04 pm
content: I guess that when Dave installed his solar panels, profit wasn't his main motivation.In most places, residential solar panels aren't profitable. Unless your utility offer huge feed-in tariffs.However, it may change in the future.Solar panel prices are dropping. New technologies are being developed (perovskite, solar dye, etc).Look at the space wasted on the roof of all buildings. As soon as it becomes profitable, solar panels will begin to appear everywhere.