If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 04:40:50 pm
content: I wanted to check why you still would want to buy Fluke, if Brymen is cheaper and as good.Would it be because you have worked with Fluke many years, and want to stay with your brand?Nostalgic reasons?Or do you prefer American products over products made in Taiwan?Would you stay with Fluke, as price is not an issue, because your employer pays the bill?What other reasons?Let the discussion round begin! Brymen versus Fluke: 1-0 to start with

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 04:46:56 pm
content: Fuke has a better build quality and better resale value. Also you can't get a Brymen in the US through official channels. I got my 87-V brand new off Ebay for $275 2 weeks ago. So it was also cheaper than Brymen.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 05:21:39 pm
content: Because Brymen offers:-No waterproof multimeter-No shockproof multimeter-No gasproof multimeterhttp://www.fluke.com/fluke/m2en/digital-multimeters/Specialty-Multimeters/Fluke-28-II-Ex-Intrinsically-Safe-True-rms-Digital-Multimeter.htm?PID=74148QuoteThe Brymen high end multimeters have quite a large display, that is not shockproof. No Brymen multimeter will withstand this.

author: Rolo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 05:42:57 pm
content: Don`t expect to buy a new meter soon because my Fluke 175 is still performing well. So...would I buy Fluke again ? Yes if funds are no issue.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 06:19:07 pm
content: Fluke has a long standing reputation of great build quality and reliability. Fluke also has a "lifetime" warranty on most of its multimeters whereas Brymen only offers one year. Greenlee gives lifetime on their re-badged Brymens but that is not Brymen directly. Fluke also offers ruggedized models as has already been mentioned. It is is also arguable that Brymen makes as good a quality meter as Fluke in some people's eyes.So there are some real reasons and some psychological reasons people buy Fluke instead of Brymen. If I was going to buy a meter for a company and it was my reputation on the line I would buy a Fluke, that is before I had experience with Brymen.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 07:00:05 pm
content: Fluke really thinks about the every day adventures that the average electrician is confronted with3 meters drop on concrete, 1 meter under water, Canyon trip, being frozen down to -15 degrees, 6 meters drop, 12 meters drop, 30 meters drop, being thrown from a car at 60 km/h.Wow! Seems like Brymen didn't do their homework about every day adventures in the US

author: dom0
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 07:09:04 pm
content: I guess you never saw how people in the field/industry treat the gear...

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 07:14:02 pm
content: Fluke has a pretty much spotless track record. And while the price is a bit higher, it really isn't that much higher. From a companies point of view: if paying an additional 50 or 100€ saves your employee 2 hours worth of work over a period of 30 years then that's money well spent.With a Fluke you don't need to worry about "could it be the DMM" if you're troubleshooting. That's not a badge Brymen has deserved yet.I'd also like to point out that stating "Brymen is cheaper and as good" and "Brymen - Fluke 1-0" is a bit premature and doesn't exactly help to get a good discussion going. It's like yelling "Justin Bieber is the best, that's just a fact!" and then asking for a discussion about why anyone else could be stupid enough to think The Beatles might be considered for the "The Best" spot.EDIT: Also: a 3m concrete drop would seem more likely than you think it is...

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 07:17:30 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on May 24, 2015, 04:46:56 pmThe retail price of the 87v is $300-350. Doesn't matter what you got it for on eBay using buy it now when talking about regular price.Also the bm869 is $230.http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm869s/Quote from: Hydrawerk on May 24, 2015, 05:21:39 pmDave did that as a fun test...Also the Fluke 28 II Ex was recalled a while back. Just because your meter says Fluke it doesn't mean you're safe from: "conductive dust may cause a short circuit that could ignite a dust explosive atmosphere surrounding the unit, potentially resulting in serious injury or death."http://en-us.fluke.com/customer-service/safety-notices/fluke-28-ii-ex-digital-multimeter-recall.html

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 07:19:24 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on May 24, 2015, 04:40:50 pmWhy do people buy luxury cars when a high-end Ford is just as good?

author: Smith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 07:20:18 pm
content: I trust every Fluke at work, and at home. Cant say that about Brymen. We have Flukes of about 30 year old that still work perfectly. They get dropped, overloaded, zapped with several kilovolts and still stay within spec.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 07:37:49 pm
content: Okey, I understand that the price delta is not a world apart... good to know.But what about the delta in features/specs? Does the 87V have the same or better specs than the Brymen 869s?I understand that Fluke is present in this business for many years. But it should be noted that sometimes newcomers can outperform old rookies.Just to name a few examples in the electronics industry: Sega and Nintendo were doing consoles for 20 years, and then out of the blue comes Sony and outperforms them.What about Motorola and Nokia Siemens Networks? These are old rookies in telecommunication equipment, and today Huawei, (yes Chinese) has wiped Motorola and Nokia Siemens Networks completely from the map.Newcomers look at the design from a different perspective, and don't have the high-self esteem attitude that sometimes can kill entire multinationals, because they are getting too relaxed, even to the point where they become lazy. Really a shame that this can happen, but it is a reality unfortunately.Thanks for sharing the info about the Fluke product recall. This actually confirms that Fluke really cares about its customers. I admit that Brymen would never initiate a voluntary product recall like this.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 07:52:58 pm
content: "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM".

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 08:02:20 pm
content: Quote from: Armxnian on May 24, 2015, 07:17:30 pmI agree on the around 200€ for the Brymen, but here in Europe it as far as I know not possible to buy a Fluke 87 V for less then 500€, so that is a big price gap...

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 08:03:25 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on May 24, 2015, 07:37:49 pmFluke would be the more responsible, but you can't say Brymen wouldn't do what is ethically correct.The brymen has better specs for the majority of the categories and is CAT IV 1000V rated. I'm sure it meets the spec, but not sure if the UL listing confirms it. The 87v is based on a decade old design, it seems Fluke is currently investing their profits in the thermal imaging market to compete with Flir. The successor is the 287/289 but they cost more so it's not really a replacement. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. Both have specs that are good. If your job requires absolute precision then you're not going to debate the 87v and BM869, you're going to order an 8 1/2 digit Agilent

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 08:15:54 pm
content: I believe that I read somewhere that Brymen was the first company in the world to get the CAT IV rating. This confirms that they are ambitious players. Their PCB design is pretty clean as well. Giant leaps better than Vichy

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 08:27:25 pm
content: Quote from: Armxnian on May 24, 2015, 07:17:30 pmThe guy I bought mine from sold 6 brand new 87-Vs on Ebay for $275.http://www.ebay.com/itm/191569718741?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AITI checked my serial and they are the latest revision too.If I need to use Ebay to buy a Brymen I will check Ebay for Fluke deals, it's only fair.The top Brymen listing for 869 is $309 (19 of them sold)http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brymen-BM869s-Digital-Multimeter-500-000-count-Dual-Temp-AC-DC-TRMS-PC-Logging-/171272486755?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27e0a2bf63My point is, you can get a 87-V for about the same or less money if you shop around (also I don't have to wait for it to ship from China). If I am going to spend close to what Fluke costs might as well get the real thing, since I think it's a better meter. Even at $350 it's still a better deal since you get it in 3 days as opposed to waiting on the slow boat from China.Fluke is a no brainer really unless you have something specific Brymen offers that you need.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 09:05:47 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on May 24, 2015, 08:27:25 pm6 meters isn't enough stock to conclude that the 87v's street price is now $275. It costs $356 on Amazon, $347 on Tequipment. Once the listings on eBay are finished, the price is what actual retailers sell it for.You don't need to use eBay to buy a Brymen. I linked a retailer that has it for $230, ships to the the U.S, and regularly gets more in stock.So no, you can't get an 87v for the same price as a BM869. It costs $100 more if you're in the U.S, and as another member said, is more expensive in Europe.Go ahead and spend more if you think it's a better meter. The specs tell a different story. "Track record" is a horrible justification to get the 87v. The 87 lineup has been out for 20 years. The BM869 has been out for two. You can't have a 20 year track record with an item that has existed for 2 years. If everyone bought the unit with the "proven" track record, no new items would ever exist. The multimeter itself has been out for half a century. They are all based on the same fundamental principles. It is not a new product. You can tell with 95% certainty how long a meter will last by looking at the build quality and schematics, which many have done for the 869, including Dave. Fluke has been selling most of their lineup solely on their name. There hasn't been much innovation, most likely because there is a greater margin of profit elsewhere, like Thermal Imaging devices as I mentioned before. If Fluke releases an 87VI with specs that match current meters, then I'll gladly give them the $350 they want. You don't get a reputation like Fluke or Agilent by putting out products that are simply built well. They have to be built well and perform better than all the cheaper brands.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 09:14:00 pm
content: I'd rather not buy gear off some shady website. I couldn't even check what the shipping would be, their SSL cert is not trusted by Chrome (see attachment). Ebay at least has buyer protection.I think 87-V is a better meter. Specs aren't everything and they shouldn't be blindly trusted.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 09:15:17 pm
content: Let's throw in a nice picture of the Brymen BM869s and an overview of the features to make the Fluke rookies jealous about the Brymen pioneers

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 09:37:27 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on May 24, 2015, 09:14:00 pmMany members have had good experiences with TME, I think Lightages had a problem though, but was eventually resolved. Anyway, can you tell me why the 87v is the better meter? I'm in the market for a handheld DMM but am waiting for the euro to further drop against the dollar to buy an 869. I don't have either, so I go based on specs and multiple videos/posts confirm the specs and praise build quality. Track record alone is a poor reason.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 09:46:38 pm
content: Quote from: Armxnian on May 24, 2015, 09:37:27 pmIt's widely considered one of the best handheld meters ever built, for a good reason. The build quality is top notch, great protection, quality control, the ergonomics are great, fast operation, great accuracy, fastest continuity check buzzer speed, great specs and reputation to stay in spec even after being abused.No brand has a better reputation than Fluke in terms of handheld DMMs, and 87-V is the iterative pinnacle of their half a century long leadership in the field. This is why Fluke has no qualms with offering lifetime warranty on it, as opposed to Brymen's 1 year for example.I think Brymen has some great meters, and if you're looking for a specific feature Fluke doesn't offer they might serve you better, but no one builds a meter quite like Fluke.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 09:55:34 pm
content: Good point about the warranty.If Brymen is really serious about their product quality, they might want to consider to extend the warranty.I wonder how their 1 year warranty would work out in Norway if they sell it through an official distributor. Note that Norway is not part of the European Union, and requires 5 year warranty on all consumer productsYes, all consumer products. That's why I bought my new vacuum cleaner in Norway instead of Germany. I usually buy abroad, as prices tend to be high in Norway, but sometimes you can score good deals at the retailers, and then the price is the same or even lower than in Germany or Belgium, plus you get the benefit of 5 years warranty, imposed by the consumer laws in the Norwegian Kingdom

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 09:57:57 pm
content: As long as we're talking Fluke and Brymen, anyone want to weigh-in with any experience with, or thoughts on, the Fluke 115 vs. the Brymen 257s? Both about the same size but the Brymen is spec'd to be 210g lighter? Brymen seems to be equivalent or wins on most specs. Fluke is about $10 more ($145 vs $135).Fluke 115167x84x46mm, 550ghttp://en-us.fluke.com/products/digital-multimeters/fluke-115-digital-multimeter.html#overviewhttp://en-us.fluke.com/products/digital-multimeters/fluke-115-digital-multimeter.html#techspecsBrymen 257(From Brymen's site; specs seem to be from 257, not 257s)161x80x50mm, 340g?http://brymen.com/product-html/cata250/Bm250L3.htmhttp://brymen.com/product-html/cata250/Bm250L2.htmhttp://brymen.com/product-html/cata250/Bm250L4.htm

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 10:01:41 pm
content: I've had 3 excellent experiences purchasing from TME.eu. As I've stated before, TME has been able to get all 3 Brymen meters to me in ~48 hours Poland->California (choose the ~$8 DHL shipping).I am quite happy with my BM869s, BM257s, and BM27s.That said, my Fluke 287 (the only Fluke product I own) is clearly of higher build quality. It just is. The plastics/molding seems to be of better quality than the Brymen. The Brymen meters feel plasticky, and I really, really prefer the Fluke function selector dial. The Brymen selector dials are clunky and difficult to turn.If you are hobbyist (like I am), I think you'll get more value for your money with a Brymen. If you are purchasing for professional use, the Fluke is going to be easier to acquire, easier to maintain/warranty, and provide a better sense of "certainty" in measurement. A Brymen may indeed be more accurate than a given Fluke, but Fluke's reputation offers a level of confidence that Brymen just cannot match.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 10:04:44 pm
content: You can also look for a Greenlee DM860A in the US. It is a re-branded BM869.The 87V has a lifetime warranty, auto touch hold, faster peak hold, longer battery life, longer history, and the Fluke reputation. To some people the warranty and the reputation are enough to justify buying it over any other meter in the price class.The BM869 has more counts, better accuracy, dual display, PC connection option, dual temperature, CATIV/1000V, dBm, and VFD. All of this for a lower price. Brymen also makes the meter in the AM-XXX series for Amprobe, the MM series for Extech, and some others. The Brymens seem to be rather well sealed against environmental contamination but they do not specify anything in regards to this.Yes I had a problem withwww.tme.eubut it was resolved in the end. Many others have had good dealings with them.Edit:Oh yes, I am offering a 3 year warranty on Brymens I sell even though Brymen only has 1. I cannot give a lifetime warranty on them as I am only a one man band right now and can't make that offer with good conscience. Greenlee has a lifetime on their Brymen re-brands.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 10:29:29 pm
content: Lightages, Dadler, or Others - Is a Greenlee 510A the same model as a Brymen 257s? If they are the same model is there any reason to prefer one vs. the other (if a user is in the U.S.)? Both are available in the U.S. Thx

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 10:42:03 pm
content: It is the same as the BM257 yes. Actually you have an incentive to get it from Greenlee for their lifetime limited warranty.One thing. The Greenlee might not be equal to the latest revision of the BM257, the BM257s, which is updated to match the latest IEC requirements for CAT ratings.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2015, 12:13:39 am
content: Brymen is good, but it has no drop or waterproof specification. For bench use it is OK. For industrial use, I would prefer Fluke.Brymen should make a shock and waterproof multimeter in future.BTW here you can see the Fluke 87 internals.https://plus.google.com/photos/104378593109746079667/albums/5886806334289971217/5962741548115509202?pid=5962741548115509202&oid=104378593109746079667EDIT:This is not my gallery. I am not David Cada. I do not own that multimeter.

author: mzacharias
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2015, 11:20:03 am
content: If the 869s is one of those with the curved display screen, like the Greenlee's and Extech's, I would suggest that the daily battle with reflections at any angle would be a source of constant frustration. Style over substance... simply a poor design choice.I have an older Brymen 857 and it's a fine meter for general use but I still almost always reach for a Fluke.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2015, 11:24:58 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on May 24, 2015, 04:40:50 pmTrust.

author: mzacharias
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2015, 04:50:26 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on May 25, 2015, 12:13:39 amBEAUTIFUL pictures!

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2015, 07:12:00 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on May 24, 2015, 07:52:58 pmAn old platitude. In Big Blue's heyday, did it say more about the quality of IBMs products and service, or their PR? When people say it today, are they, and the people who they are saying it to, considering that times change?

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2015, 07:52:36 pm
content: Quote from: mzacharias on May 25, 2015, 04:50:26 pmTaken by my friend,notby me.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 12:41:04 pm
content: First, I'd like to say that TME is extremely trustworthy. I've used them 10s of times and they're just great.About the meters, I think people that were used to Fluke will tend to use Fluke in the future too. It comes down to commodity and not willing to take the risk with something new.When I was looking for a meter I didn't even think about Fluke. I know there are particular areas of the field where a rugged meter is necessary, but most of us, most of the "electronics people" don't need them. Personally I never dropped a meter - I can't even imagine a situation in which that might happen, not to mention submerge it! Why would I need it to be water proof anyway? I don't keep buckets of water laying around my lab, that would be insane.This is the reason I didn't consider Fluke, if you strip the ruggedness away, you're left with an overpriced meter with poor specs. I think most people realize this and I bet that a lot of old Fluke customers or new possible customers are choosing different brands now.In my case, the choice was between Agilent and Brymen and went with Brymen because it had good specs and better price.TL;DR: You want a Fluke if you work in the mines or if you're an existing customer and you don't feel like trying something new. For everything else there are better alternatives.Edit: I rephrased something.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 12:54:20 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on May 26, 2015, 12:41:04 pmPoor specs?

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 12:56:10 pm
content: Take away the ruggedness and protection of any meter and you're left with a cheap meter.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 01:03:59 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 26, 2015, 12:54:20 pm87 III:Digital:4000counts updates 4/sec; (Model 87 also has19,999 counts in 4½-digit mode, updates 1/sec.)That's a 3½ meter in not painfully slow mode. With a 0.05% + 1 digit accuracy for DC Voltage. That's worse than both Agilent U1272A and Brymen 86x and costs a LOT more than any of them.1 digit on a 3½ meter is 5 times worse than 2 digits on a 4½.Edit: The brymen has 0.02% + 2 counts and it's a 50,000 counts meter.Edit 2: My point is that Fluke didn't keep up with the times. What was great 10 years ago, is common sense territory these days. There's nothing wrong in selling old technology, but they're way too expensive for what they have to offer.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 01:14:30 pm
content: Just want to point out the Australian price for Fluke meters is ridiculous. I wouldn't buy them again until I could get one for a fair price.Here in Aus we have to go through Australian distributors which are a rip off.eg.http://www.qldcalibrations.com.au/fluke-87v-true-rms-multimeterThat is $630 US. First one I found that wasn't EBay. So obviously we are paying for more than postage.Cheaper on EBay but then it is grey market, no Australian warranty.I did manage to buy one on TE electronics once and paid for it but then they said they weren't allowed to give it to me. Long story, no sale.So if you live in Aus then I would go Brymen, unless someone else is paying for it. Even if someone else is paying for it.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 01:19:23 pm
content: In Europe, the 87V is $760 after tax.

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 01:26:17 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on May 26, 2015, 01:14:30 pmFun fact: Australia is indeed the most popular destination for the Brymen meters I sell.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 01:46:46 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on May 26, 2015, 01:03:59 pm87-III is an old/discontinued meter. 20k count mode/high res mode on 87-V is 3 readings per second not 1.You've never used the Fluke meter I take it?I feel like you're missing the point of the 87-V. It was not built to impress you with the specs. It was built to provide a lifetime of accurate measurements. Weather it takes abuse or not. Fluke has a reputation of very little drift even after taking abuse. Jury is still out on the Brymen's longevity imo, how much does it drift for example?Fluke has higher resolution meters. Yet many still prefer the 87-V. Why do you think that is?The way I see it, if you're going to spend $200+ on a handheld, and you can get a Fluke, it makes little sense to buy anything else, unless you really feel you need a feature Fluke is missing. Or you want to try something different.Quality matters, and a few meters are of higher quality if any. For precision measurements, you really want a bench meter, because DMMs lack the battery life to provide an accurate heated voltage ref. In other words the higher counts on hand held DMMs quickly become a gimmick. So why not go with quality over some theoretical spec no meter can live up to?

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 02:36:57 pm
content: What does Brymen offer in the 6.5 digit space?I can only shop for what I can buy in the US.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 02:39:36 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on May 26, 2015, 01:46:46 pmEven if you replace the specs of the 87-III with 87-V, the point still stands.Quote from: Muxr on May 26, 2015, 01:46:46 pmI have to admit that I have not, I do have friends that own them and I've seen them using them. I didn't see anything impressive.Quote from: Muxr on May 26, 2015, 01:46:46 pmPoint taken. Brymen is too young to know how well it performs in the long run, but I have feeling that they'll do just fine.Quote from: Muxr on May 26, 2015, 01:46:46 pmCommodity or not willing to risk testing something new. I don't disagree that at some point Fluke meters were great and that they're still decent. But I also don't think that it's unimaginable that new technology and/or newcomers can outperform them. Keep in mind that their next competitor is not Brymen, it's Agilent, the biggest fish in the sea.Quote from: Muxr on May 26, 2015, 01:46:46 pmEven if we leave Brymen aside, I'd still go for Agilent instead of a Fluke. They're cheaper and I have more trust in Agilent designs.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 03:04:17 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on May 26, 2015, 02:39:36 pmThat's a bold statement.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 03:20:00 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on May 26, 2015, 03:04:17 pmNot saying that's a fact, that's my personal opinion, based on the fact that Agilent has a lot more experience in test and measurement. They've done so much it's silly to compare the two.

author: paulie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 03:29:46 pm
content: Yes, but does Agilent have experience with putting leaky supercaps in high end product? I understand Fluke provided the PCB corrosion and oxidation feature at no additional charge.

author: Theboel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 03:52:16 pm
content: can I trust brymen with my employee when they threat fluke like this ? I doubt it but maybe I am wrong who knows

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 04:02:36 pm
content: Fluke tends to overpriced stuff. For example their 2042 cable locator which retails for about 700Euro is a re-badge of some Chinese brand (I forgot which, sorry).Stuff like Brymen, CEM and Applent does the job fine, and in most cases you can buy one or two extra units for price of one fluke that does the same thing.

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 04:10:33 pm
content: When the groundbreaking Fluke 8020A came out in 1977 I bought one. It was tough and reliable but eventually the LCD faded away and intermittently lost some segments. So I moved on. Not sure where my 8020A is now. I doubt that I threw it away. Wonder what would happen if I made a "lifetime" warranty claim.I now have a Fluke 12 for my travel kit. An Agilent U1272 and Keysight 34465 serve for bench work.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 04:16:32 pm
content: Quote from: paulie on May 26, 2015, 03:29:46 pmIt's a Panasonic supercap, it's not like they skimped on a noname capacitor. Duds happen, one of the reasons 87-V is so popular is because it's proven.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 05:09:23 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on May 26, 2015, 03:20:00 pmjadew, Agilent's T&M experience alone does not warrant good products, as several people reported their higher end portable meters have been plagued with several software bugs. Not saying that Fluke is infallible, but that alone shouldn't bias your opinion.Quote from: jadew on May 26, 2015, 01:03:59 pmI partially agree with you; Fluke did not keep up with the newer features in their mainline portable DMMs. However, they may have found that exploring other features that are not commodities on other brands may be more profitable, such as their wireless product line. Since we don't have a crystal ball, we can't tell for sure if this is paving the road for portable meters, but I see it as trying to keep up with times (as everything nowadays is touchscreen and wireless).On the other hand, they are (or were, I don't know anymore) owned by a parent company that mostly sought after profit (Danaher), therefore maintaining a captive market with their ruggedness at the expense of innovation of their main DMM products probably made sense for their owners...Quote from: Muxr on May 26, 2015, 12:56:10 pmYou are right. I can tell this market is highly sought after by the other manufacturers (perhaps another equally rugged contender would be Gossen). Most of the cheaper alternatives have been adding the low-hanging fruits (HRC fuses, PTCs, varistors, better PCB routing, etc.) but investing in research for better case materials, rotary switches, assembly and others is expensive and probably is enough to make up for the price difference. I have a Fluke 179 and a Brymen BM857, and I can tell the Fluke is a war tank (I did a teardownhere).All in all, I think it is the right tool for the job. My main reason to have spent the extra money on a Fluke was the peace of mind of having at least one safe and dependable meter around - also, the initial price would be dilluted throughout its lifetime. I got the BM857 due to other features (higher counts, 4-20mA measurements, etc.), which I use in my lab.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 06:08:29 pm
content: Quote from: Theboel on May 26, 2015, 03:52:16 pmI think in your case the question is should you trust your employee if he treats equipment like that!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 06:23:03 pm
content: One correction about my previous post: I think I left the idea the Brymens are flimsy. Well, my BM857 is many steps above the average DMM offerings in the marketplace in terms of ruggedness: tight fit between the two halves of the cases with a rubber gasket all around, rubber gaskets on each screw in the back, excellent rubber protection cover, tight fit of the input jacks, tight fit of the rotary switch, etc. The stand is very flimsy, though, and broke with a few uses (althoughBrymen's excellent supportcame to rescue)

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 06:52:21 pm
content: I think there will be a gap here because "as good" has not been qualified.As good in what way? Many of the Fluke supporters are including field durability in their standard. The Brymen camp seems to dismiss this standard. When this is the case, it appears that the Brymen camp are merely shopping for justifications for their "team." If "as good" gets qualified, I expect it would fundamentally change the question.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 08:30:06 pm
content: Dave summarizes it quite well:https://youtu.be/whvSl_0p8e4?t=426

author: m100
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 09:15:19 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on May 24, 2015, 09:46:38 pmNo, the '87-VI' could be that, if they made the default current measurement DC not AC(but despite that I've got an 87-V on my bench)Fluke = Reputation + backup + quality = expensive at first glance but ultimately very cheap for something that last a generation in everyday serviceBrymen =? Unknown? Who the f*ck are they? = The kind of thing that gets bought if money is tight or someone else is pulling the stringsFrom the reviews we sort of know Brymen have some essence of quality, in some countries they may even have the makings of some credible backup, in 30+ years or more they might have a reputation that people will turn to. Until then all bets are off, for me it's Flukeevery timefor a portable DMM.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 09:18:33 pm
content: I would love to say that Brymens are as rugged as Flukes, but no one can. Brymen does not have the same time in the field nor do they have the same amount of meters in the field being abused like Fluke. For the build quality and design I would be comfortable saying they they can take quite a bit of abuse. Would I think that a BM829s can take the abuse that the Fluke 27 can take. Definitely no. I might say that it could take the same abuse as an Fluke 87V, but I don't have both to compare so I can't say that in good conscience.I guess this will have to a subject of a video when I get video production back on track.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 09:31:43 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on May 26, 2015, 08:30:06 pmYou're really just trying to justify your purchase at this point by linking a 6 year old video. The 87 had top of the line specs 10 years ago, that's not the case anymore.The only pros we've seen so far are build quality and track record. The difference in build quality is highly exaggerated. The Brymen is rated to survive 12kV transients, you don't meet that spec by building a crap meter that falls apart in your hand. It also has a huge rubber case. We have tear downs of both meters, and both are built like rocks. Track record is fine to build trust in a product/brand but it is illogical to buy a product based solely on that. If everyone had that methodology, innovation would stop.No one is bashing any Fluke products. If you bought your 87v a while ago and it still works then there isn't much point in buying a higher end meter unless you need it. But if you're buying new, I don't see much point in payingmorefor a lower spec'd unit. The 87v looks like a great meter, it's just old. The 289 looks like a better purchase if you have the cash. But even that is a bit old. Fluke has the rep and money to destroy the competition by building the ultimate meter, they just haven't done so.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 09:54:38 pm
content: Quote from: Armxnian on May 26, 2015, 09:31:43 pmBrymen has a 1 year warranty, 87V has a lifetime warranty. I am sorry if Brymen themselves don't agree with you.As far as specs are concerned, there is so much not told in the specs. I am not convinced for instance that accuracy is in fact better, until I see some drift measurements for a given period of time, I am not sold. I am actually genuinely curious. Higher count is largely a gimmick if the accuracy isn't there. And like I stated, it is not easy to achieve the stability required in a handheld meter.Besides if I cared for the count I would have gotten a 286 instead, not the 87V.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 10:06:42 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on May 26, 2015, 09:54:38 pmActually Brymen does not guarantee them for more than 1 year, but Greenlee does with exactly the same meter from Brymen. It just has different colors. I personally guarantee the Brymens I sell for 3 years. I can't do any more than that because a one man show can't guarantee anything for life. My guarantee is against any defect in manufacture, not against abuse or misuse. Fluke doesn't guarantee against misuse neither.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 10:17:00 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on May 26, 2015, 10:06:42 pmI get that you are trying to defend Brymen, since you make a living from selling them. You obviously have a vested interest in this. But I am not convinced they are better meters, sorry.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 11:36:49 pm
content: I am stating facts. I have not stated anything that is not demonstrable. I am only trying to educate on the facts and correct where things might be mistaken and have been.I am making nothing on selling Brymen right now and don't expect make anything more than pocket change in the future. I actually point people towww.tme.euand to Franky here on the forums for purchases most of the time because I only sell to a very small demographic here in SA. I probably have made more money for them than I will ever make from selling Brymen, especially to this audience. I am selling them because I like the product. I have been "defending" Brymen long before I became a distributor. I was a customer of three models before I decided to try and sell them. I also have been "defending" some Uni-T meters, I have a Fluke 27/FM which I consider one of the best buys I have ever made in a multimeter, some Digitek, and others. I have stated my ties to Brymen to make sure people did not think I was a shill or was hiding any possible bias.

author: MisterBiscuit
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 12:19:04 am
content: It amazes me how trivially people equate the economics of "warranty" with product quality."Warranty" is forced insurance, nothing more. You buy it when you buy the product. You pay for it in the purchase price of the product. The manufacturer makes additional profit off of it. You have no option to "opt out" or decline it and save the cost. Manufacturers, distributors, and retailers are more than delighted to sell you *more* insurance in the form of "Extended Warranties" at the time of sale. Why? Because its a huge money maker. "Lifetime Warranties" become sales tools for manufacturers ("Our product is so good, we guarantee it for life!") even though the customer bears the entire financial burden for that warranty. Manufacturers laugh all the way to the bank.If you want to compare product quality, I'd recommend sticking to qualitative analysis. Warranty is a profit center, not a measure of quality. It is backed with sophisticated computer risk models that ensure profit for the insurer, uhhh, manufacturer and has little bearing on quality.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 01:00:16 am
content: Quote from: MisterBiscuit on May 27, 2015, 12:19:04 amYeah the Brymens cost less because they have 1 year warranty. The Greenlee re-badges, which are basically the same meter, have a life time warranty, but they are also considerably more expensive.

author: nuno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 01:20:55 am
content: Brymen should work a bit on their website, and on English translations. Loved the "fire retarded casing" of the 869

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 02:31:13 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on May 26, 2015, 09:54:38 pmWell, let's explore that. I had the BM867 for 2 years and after I got it I made a little voltage reference and resistor reference board. Nothing fancy and I believe it drifted a bit (particularly the 5V reference which is different than the reference used for 1.2V and 2.4V. All the resistors are 0.1%. I stopped keeping track of my meters several months after I built it, but I made another measurement just now.I have 3 meters, the BM867, an AXIO AX-594 and a very $5 DUWI 07975.The first thing you will notice, is that low drift is nothing to be proud of when you have such low resolution. The DUWI has virtually no drift and it's been abused for the past few months by my son, being one of his toys now. This is a $5 meter.The other thing you'll also note, is that the BM867 has less drift in 2 years, than the fluke 87 has counts to display it. And I bet a lot of that drift comes from my shitty reference than from the meter.I really wish I had a better reference, but I didn't think I'll have this conversation at some point, otherwise I would have built a nicer one and would have calibrated my meters more often.The data is attached. They're .csv files, but had to change the extension to .txt because I couldn't upload them otherwise.Edit: Changed the year from the last record to 2015, since I made those measurements today.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 02:56:33 am
content: A shitty reference isn't a big deal. Getting measurement data on it, simultaneously, with the meters in question is.LTD is a subject on how the measuring device ages and alters its reading over time. Keep in mind, just like Dave's videos on the LM399 or LTZ1000, the internal reference is the predominant dictator for LTD performance. Without actually going out and buying one of each meter new and then begin trying to sort out how to automate measurements every hour or so, you could look at the two meters' internals and identify their reference. If they have the same reference, it is _likely_ they will age similarly.No one has told me if Brymen make a 6.5 digit bench meter that compares to the Fluke 8846A, so I'm confused as to how they can be equal without having a product.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 03:31:55 am
content: Quote from: jadew on May 27, 2015, 02:31:13 amThanks for that. I am assuming the last entry is 2015 (says 2013 in the file).This basically either confirms what I've been saying, which is that the extra digit count is pointless as the meter will drift those digits anyways (or they will be noise), or that it's inconclusive because of the reference drift. Also 87-V is a 20k count meter. So the 5V reference would have shown the difference, but that's neither here or there because it's off by just one digit.I remember someone distinctly complaining about the Brymen drift while back, which is why I brought it up in the first place. Here I found the post:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/brymen-bm869-short-review/msg553991/#msg553991I am just not convinced that Brymen 869 actually offers any tangible accuracy advantage over the 87-V.edit: this video kind of sucks, also warning turn your volume down, but it's an interesting anecdote for the 87-Vbasically to summarize, some eastern european guy buys a used 87-V from ebay.. seller from the US sends it to Europe. He gets it and sends it to his local Fluke for calibration. They returned the meter with results of the calibration. Meter had some drift in other functions (all within the spec) But the DC had 0 drift on all the ranges in 5 years.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 03:44:54 am
content: Yes, the last entry is 2015, thanks.I think the 5V reference drifted. I'm using a 2.4V reference for the 1.2 and 2.4 voltages and a different one for the 5V. Given that everything else stayed pretty much the same, I'm inclined to believe the 5V drifted.As for the noise, the display is very stable. On this reference, which I power from a 9V battery so the input is super clean, the last digit (in 500,000 counts mode) simply goes down as the battery discharges. It never jumps around - at most it goes up one count when it's between counts. I'll make a video.Edit:Here's a video of the meter measuring the input voltage of the reference:http://youtu.be/P93mj_xvguYEdit 2:@MuxrThe Fluke calibration was done in 6000 counts mode. My Brymen has 0 DC drift for that many counts too and again, my reference costs $3 total. If it was lab grade, I wouldn't be surprised if the brymen had 0 in the 50,000 counts mode too.Edit 3:The measurements I made were in 500,000 counts mode, which is why the numbers might look higher than they really are.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 04:03:20 am
content: Thanks! Doesn't look noisy, you're right.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 05:58:44 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on May 26, 2015, 09:54:38 pmFluke does have a longer warranty, but do be aware their definition of "Lifetime" has to do with their product lifetime/cycle, not the lifetime of the purchaser (turns out it's 7 - 10 years depending on the date you buy it, when the meter is EOL'ed, and the availability of spare parts).Quote from: Muxr on May 26, 2015, 09:54:38 pmI own both a Brymen BM857 and Agilent U1252B as my better meters (both are 50k counts). Had both for ~3 years IIRC. Make of it what you will, but checking the same sources, they're both still within spec. So either both are drifting at the same rate, or they're not drifting any appreciable amount, if at all.I'd actually have to give ruggedness to the Brymen over the Agilent (their HH designs were acquired from Escort), but it really doesn't matter much for bench use IMHO (i.e. surviving a drop of 1m is sufficient; and environment = indoor use). The Agilent has the edge on features, and the display is much nicer to use (BM869 is more in line with the Agilent on features & display).If things are going to get rough, I've also a Fluke 27/FM when the counts aren't critical (rugged as hell, but only 3200 counts & far fewer features). It's also the only Fluke I own ATM (could easily change if the right deal comes along).

author: Marc M.
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2015, 07:24:03 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on May 24, 2015, 07:00:05 pmQuote from: m100 on May 26, 2015, 09:15:19 pmFolks, you have to keep things in perspective. This is an electronics specific forum so most folks here are only thinking about these things from an electronics viewpoint. What many are failing to realize is that the Fluke 87 series was designed specifically for needs of the Industrial Maintenance and Electrician fields, not the electronic engineer/tech sitting at a clean bench in a climate controlled room. It is for this reason that it includes things like a low pass filter to enable accurate measurements when checking the output of VFD's. It's also why it defaults to AC amps and not DC.By day, I'm a CNC tech. in a large production machine shop and I'm dealing with AC voltage measurements 85% of the time and AC current 99.9% of the time. For the most part, the only DC I deal with on a day to day basis is 24vdc control voltage. If there's a fault somewhere, it will load the 24v line and the voltage will drop. When I've isolated the fault the 24v supply voltage will go back to normal - no need to check current. In the few places where there's a current loop, we use a meter specifically designed for checking current loops.Regarding the snarky "...everyday adventures in the US..." comment, the poster obviously has never worked in an industrial environment inanycountry. When I have a machine down it's potentially losing hundreds or even thousands of dollars an hour. I can't be wasting time trying to bubble wrap and safeguard my $300 meter (btw, I paid for it, not the company). I need to get the machine running again as quickly as possible. A very common issue on CNC equipment is short/breaks in wiring to proximity and reed switches. They are extensively used to make sure that commanded movements of things like hydraulic cylinders or mechanical parts of tool changers and pallet changers have completed before the next movement begins so their cabling is often continuously flexing. Some of these machines are over 20 feet (about 7 meters) high and covered in a layer of dirt and oil and I'm precariously perched on a piece of 2" angle iron on top of it. I'm very careful about all equipment but in these sorts of situations things happen and it may get knocked off and fall down inside the machine bouncing off crap on the way down only to land in a pool of coolant. I know that when I fish it back out and clean it up, chances are it will function correctly and accurately (it hasn't failed yet in 8 years of use). Fluke understands the reality of working in these sorts of environments and designed their industrial meters to withstand the abuse they get exposed to.I also work with 480v bus ducts and entry panels where the instantaneous current available is in the 10's of thousands of amps. It is these places that a sub-par meterWILL KILL YOU. If you sniff around the internet for Arc/Flash fatalities you'll start to gain an appreciation and respect for working in these areas. Am I going to literally trust my life to the new kid on the block with very little experience? No, I'm going to go with the proven veteran whose track record goes back decades.On the other side of the coin, by night I'm a ham radio operator, repair electronic stuff for friends/family/coworkers etc., and design and build a wide variety of stuff for my multitude of interests, work, and a few things for sale. All this at my clean, comfy, temp. controlled bench (OK, maybe not that clean) and what is my goto DMM? Another 87V, primarily because I'm so familiar with it, but also because I trust it and its accuracy is more than enough. There is a lot of volt-nut-itis on this forum and for 99% of folks, entirely overkill. I do plan on picking up a bench DMM at some point (I'm still using a Heathkit VTVM for general work). Unlike Dave, I much prefer having a line powered, stable meter I can plug/unplug probes without having to hold on to the entire thing as my main meter and use the handheld for secondary measurements when needed. And again, I will buy an HP/Agilent/Keysight (should have stayed HP) because of trust and reputation for solid, dependable design.

author: Terry Lingle
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 02:29:27 am
content: I work underground in a Mine. Conditions are pretty harsh voltages are nominal 600 VAC from a 7.5 MW 4160 feed.I use an 87V and do not prefer it for this work for the following reasons first it is by design an auto ranging meter this feature can lead to a fatal belief that the power is off when in fact it is only compromised with one or two of the phases open while the third is live from a welded contact in the supply breaker. second the low amp ranges are subject to false lead detection due to humidity induced leakage not terribly serious and easily fixed by putting duct tape over the ports.That said there is no way I would consider any other brand working in my environment.My first personal digital meter was an 8012A it is about 40 years old and still works perfectly'I replaced it as my carry meter with an 8060A when it first became available for size and the built in frequency meter. I used that meter every day. In 2013 the battery door failed and I bought the 87V to replace it. The 8060A has 1000 volt rating on it but has no cat III or IV rating as it was built before the visible code was required so insurance and compliance rules prevailed.For my personal use it is still my go to meter and much preferred over any auto ranging unit.I also own a fluke 1504 Megger and ground tester it gets much use in fault detection in trailing cables and exposed teck cable troubleshooting.Lets see how your meters are working in 40 years then we can have a fair discussion of value vs price.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 02:56:59 am
content: QuoteThat sounds like 600Vac CAT IV which means your nominal voltage is at the very edge of the specification. Maybe you need a higher rated meter.

author: Terry Lingle
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 03:12:29 am
content: The 87v is a cat IV rated meter.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 03:24:25 am
content: In a mine, you should be using an intrinsically safe meter like the Fluke 28EX. Brymen does not make anything that is ruggedized nor IP rated nor intrinsically safe. Brymen has made some modifications to one of their meters on request for some mines.If I were to shop for one of those types of meters, I would buy a Fluke 28EX, or an Amprobe HD-160.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 04:07:14 am
content: QuoteYeah but CAT IV rated to 600V which you said is your nominal voltage.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 04:56:04 am
content: Quote from: Terry Lingle on May 29, 2015, 02:29:27 amFlawed logic. Just because a meter from one brand survives harsh conditions and lasts for a long time doesn't mean a meter from another brand won't. We have eyes, we can see build quality.Also, who realistically uses a 40 year old multimeter? That's a long period for anything. Scientific advancements give the potential for everything to improve.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 05:24:51 am
content: Quote from: Armxnian on May 29, 2015, 04:56:04 amNot 40 years but about 30 or so years old and my GB GDT-200A piece of crap is still alive and well (The one on the right)Not constructed well at all:But I never did plug it into mains, maybe I should, 500V rated 10A and "unfused" but it's UL listed. I guess I'll have to make sure it's on it's right rangeNo worries I won't!

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 06:37:44 am
content: Quote from: Armxnian on May 29, 2015, 04:56:04 amNo, it is not flawed logic. Put a percentage on it. What are the chances of equipment from a reputed brand with a proven track record with puddles of experience going the distance against equipment from the new kid on the block? Even if you think the difference is marginal, you'd be dishonest if you did not agree on at least a score favoring the reputed brand.And while "eyes" may be a primary tool for any engineer, it's hardly sufficient to call build quality. There are *so* much factors to consider. Even if Brymen did not cut any corners and did everything to the absolute best of their abilities and knowledge, it's hard to imagine Fluke hasn't picked up a thing or two along the way the other folks are not aware of...

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 07:15:47 am
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on May 29, 2015, 06:37:44 amNo one in this thread has said Brymen > Fluke. Brymen uses Fluke test equipment to calibrate their products...Look at the title. We are arguing that the 87v is old and the BM869 is a better value, because it has improved specs, costs $100 less (more outside the U.S), and is built well to survive any lab use, and industrial use since it is also U.L listed and is praised by electricians. Prove us wrong.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 09:14:41 am
content: Quote from: Armxnian on May 29, 2015, 07:15:47 amThe title says "as good" and I'm sorry, that's something you have to earn. And your "eyes" do not qualify as sufficient grounds to qualify the unit as "as good".And I don't have to prove you wrong. You may very well beright. I just don't know and neither do you. Which makes the Fluke a safer bet. I'd also like to point out that an U.L. listing does not make it an equal product. It just means it also meets a minimum design requirement and if it fails it will probably do so safely.Common mistake. Qualified according to certain specs is not the same as quality or endurance.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 10:17:17 am
content: Quote from: Armxnian on May 29, 2015, 04:56:04 amSometimes I use my PU120.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-482-retro-iskra-multimeter-teardown/msg246778/#msg246778But I am not sure hor old it is.http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/metra_blan_multimeter_pu_120.html

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 12:13:46 pm
content: Quote from: Armxnian on May 29, 2015, 04:56:04 amIf you're going to claim the logic is flawed, it's first best to show the inconsistency, and second it's better not to create a new argument to attack, let alone one which relies on something subjective as "eyes."Use your eyes, tell me which of these is a genuine Bugatti Veyron:Just because something appears to be the same, does not make them the same thing.Mean Time Between Failures is a thing. MTBF on one meter from each vendor doesn't mean jack. However, when one company has a product in the field, which racks up hours of service, and a specific failure rate they can identify MTBF. If another brand shows up and wishes to be considered an equal, it has to assert the same MTBF. The point of a "40 year old meter" is "this meter is built with an intrinsically long MTBF." This does not mean that there will not be a case where a user buys a new meter and it fails to turn on. It means that on an average, the long-term reliability has a degree of certainty (or as Dave put it, "Trust").A certain company who develops Power station products in Pullman Washington prides themselves on the lifetime quality of their products. In order to have earned that pride, they set out to achieve the highest MTBF possible. They test all conditions they can to force their systems to fault. They concern themselves with bit-flipping due to charged particles. At the end of the day, their products have an MTBF of 80 years. Their certainty is so high, they give a lifetime warranty and free exchange. The buyers of their products havetrustin the product.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 12:35:38 pm
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on May 29, 2015, 12:13:46 pmQuote from: XFDDesign on May 29, 2015, 12:13:46 pmNot unless it specifies the usage conditions.Almost anything will last a long time if it mostly just sits on a table in a nice clean office. Flukes are designed to last a long time in coal mines with passing clouds of dust, dripping roofs, etc.Flukes have stood the test of time, they've proved themselves, they've earned the brand recognition.It sucks for Brymen, yes, but that's the way the world works.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 12:42:38 pm
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on May 29, 2015, 12:13:46 pmFord Cougar with a body kit.QuoteBugatti Veyron.Although to paraphrase René Magritte, ceci n'est pas une Veyron.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 01:44:09 pm
content: Sorry nearly off topic, but this is a real Bugatti, unfortunately I don't know the MTBF.Maybe people buy Fluke for the Bugatti factor.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 02:03:21 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 29, 2015, 12:35:38 pmBut even if one meter sits in a box on a table, it'sonemeter. It's not a statistically significant sample. Fortunately for Fluke, most of their units are in the field as you mentioned.Quote from: rolycat on May 29, 2015, 12:42:38 pmYes, you're wise to it. The point was to the person who was saying that eyes were good enough to judge.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 02:44:07 pm
content: Quote from: Armxnian on May 29, 2015, 07:15:47 amBrymen is obviously a decent meter, and no one is saying those who purchased it made a mistake either. Honestly outside of US if the difference is greater than $100 for a 87v I can see why someone would prefer it over Fluke as it's much cheaper.People perceive value differently however. To me there is not much difference between $200 and $300 when it comes to a DMM. When you pay that much for a meter you're paying for something that will last you 20-30+ years. That's less than $5 difference per year, for something you use daily it's negligible.And then there is the resale value, you look at the 20-30 year old 87s which can still fetch $150-$200 on ebay depending on the condition.Specs: I don't get impressed by the specs. For one Fluke is very conservative about their specs. Everyone knows that the accuracy listed on the specsheet is only what they guarantee, and that it's often vastly better than what the actual spec sheet says. The same is true for your HP/Agilent/Keysight and Keithley gear for instance.Fluke has no incentive to push their published specs, since they have an established credibility. So in that regard I don't think the specs are as relevant. Companies who order large quantities of meters know to buy Fluke so I don't think Fluke is worried. Readings per second and capability is, sure, but not the accuracy. Brymen scores nicely spec wise, but the specs and price are also their only chance to compete with Fluke's reputation. Historically Fluke has always had competition which competed on specs, Brymen isn't the first and I am sure they aren't the last.And then there is the build quality of the product. Again Fluke has an established reputation, and while Brymen is also of a good quality many who have used both will admit Fluke is a notch above.For me personally I could see myself getting a Brymen BM869 one day because I do think it's a good meter, and I like test gear (don't we all?) but for my main meter, 87V is it. I've been out of electronics for a few years so when I came back I bought non Fluke, but that only reminded me of how much I missed my 87. I used one at the job in the 90s and I just remembered how much I loved using it.

author: Terry Lingle
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 08:04:36 pm
content: If all you work on is low voltage equipment then as long as you are satisfied with the features and specs of any meter it will probably meet your requirements.Once you enter the realm of higher voltage /power you need to pay more attention to track record.when you are a long ways from a replacement you want a meter that will forgive basic user mistakes like 600 vac on the ohms range and keep working.With 45 years in the power industry I have seen some glaring errors and a few fatal events as wellInterestingly none involved measurementsWhat I do know is that the leads are by far the most dangerous part of any meter.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 07:07:20 am
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on May 29, 2015, 12:13:46 pmHow are your eyes not a valid way to verify build quality. What's the point of reviewers doing teardowns then. Anyone one with experience can tell if something is built well by looking at it. Your eyes are almost as good as a way to judge electrical test equipment build quality as actually using it.Your car analogy also makes zero sense. That's like judging a meter's build quality by looking at the case that has no brand name. Open the meter, or open the hood of your car and you can get a good idea.Quote from: Muxr on May 29, 2015, 02:44:07 pmI have no objections to wanting to go with the product that has been proven if your life could be in danger, like working with high voltage in a mine, I would do the same myself. But for other uses, I don't see why I should give my money to a brand that doesn't update their meters when there are competitive products. I can prove they are competitive because electricians and hobbyists and electronic engineers buy them.If Fluke released an 87VI with modern specs I would buy it without question, and I bet you would be excited to buy one also, more than your 87v purchase. I'm not even saying the 869 is a better meter than the 87. That's nearly impossible to prove. I'm only saying it's a better value. It has better specs, is built well, and most of all is less expensive. Mechanical build quality and history isn't enough to consider it a better value for the average user of the product. The facts are laid out in front of us, there is no argument against what I'm saying.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 08:11:32 am
content: Just off the top of my head, many Brymens have a crap continuity test, and even the 869, which is not bad, still isn't latching. They also have a crap warranty...1 year, I think. Fluke is Lifetime. Hey, no biggie. That doesn't make Brymen terrible meters, but the idea that it's somehow "just as good" as a Fluke fails miserably with only about a second's worth of thought. I don't even need to look at construction, performance, probes, etc.re: Fluke WarrantyIt's not 7-10 years. It's 7 years after it's discontinued, with a MINIMUM of 10 years from the purchase date.In the US at least, the only legit source of Brymens off the top of my head is Greenlee, and the DM860A is a good bit more than a Fluke 87. Off Ebay, we're still paying $310 for a Brymen, and I can get an Fluke 87 new for $370. The Greenlee badged Brymen will cost over $400. If you're going to be priced this closely to Fluke, you really need to blow me away with specs AND give me warm fuzzies that you'll last 20+ years. Selling re-badged products, and also having such a wide range of quality from lowest to best, already makes me feel like they don't really give a crap about their brand beyond making some money.Again, I really don't have anything against Brymen meters. I think they make a fine meter that will probably last a good long time. For a few bucks more (or a few bucks less if you're buying a Greenlee), I can buy a Fluke that I KNOW will most likely outlast me. Like so many others, I've had my Fluke for a LONG time. It's had the crap beat out of it in some harsh settings, and has never done anything but work perfectly and reliably. It's hard to imagine why I would buy a Brymen, though I understand the pricing is much different outside of the US. If the price difference were $200 or more, I'd be a lot more inclined to take a chance.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 08:40:10 am
content: Fluke provides a sturdy K-type temperature probe, worth about 25$, with all their meters (1 year warranty).Brymen DMMs are supplied with the cheapest probe available, which, in my experience, usually fall apart after a couple of uses.Scratch that, the probe doesn't look all that bad actually and is a notch above the usual fare.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 09:03:40 am
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on May 30, 2015, 08:11:32 amYou actually have a point there! But maybe Brymen needs to keep these entry level models to keep overall profit, as the sales on their higher-end models is limited?BTW: Brymen is a Taiwanese company. Do companies in Taiwan have to publish an annual report with yearly earnings? It would be interesting to see how good they are doing.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 09:16:14 am
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on May 30, 2015, 08:11:32 amI wouldn't pay $400 for an 869 rebadge. The Brymen one costs $230 because it has 1 year warranty. Personally I've never used a warranty on anything. I either take care of my product, or somehow end up destroying it past warranty coverages. I don't really care about the specs either, they aren't that drastic of a difference, I have a bench meter for accuracy and precision. But looking at Fluke's handheld dmm lineup, pretty much everything seems to be overpriced for electronics use. They have $200 meters that don't even have a microamp range. Either their lineup is designed for industrial electricians use or they just haven't updated anything.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 09:25:01 am
content: Fluke is like Apple... huge profit margins, moderate specs.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 09:46:40 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on May 30, 2015, 09:25:01 amThe arguments in this thread are literally what Apple fanboys use to defend their products. You tell them you can get another laptop that is cheaper and faster, but by default they respond with "build quality". Am I buying a screw driver set or a computer? Unless the BM869 or similar dies after a year of use then I think I've made my point, and it seems to be the most realistic one.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 09:56:36 am
content: A lot of Fluke meters don't have mind boggling specs, but for 99% of what I do, I don't need specs like that. I use that same Fluke to do everything...work on vehicles/equipment, house wiring, electronics works on the bench, etc. It's tough and reliable. It's 20 years old and I still have the original probes (though I recently replaced them with some Pomonas that I like better). Specs aren't everything. If I have to buy a cheap meter 3 times because it can't hold up to daily use and abuse, then the Fluke is much cheaper in the long run. We've all come to trust them.Specs are nice, but most of the time I'm either checking rails or I'm checking continuity. Maybe I'm testing a diode or checking a cap to see if it's leaky. The most important things to me are reliability and a FAST, latching continuity test. If I need more than basic accuracy/precision, I won't be fiddling around with a stupid handheld meter. I'll have a proper bench meter. This class of meter is marketed to pros, and I'm guessing most pros probably feel the same way. We just simply don't need a whole of of precision most of the time. It's really surprising how many meters, even very expensive ones, have really awful continuity tests. I think BK Precision is one of the few, including Fluke, that seem to have put any time into getting that right, even though I probably use that more than anything else!Where did you see the Brymen for $239? Cheapest I could find was over $300.Frankly, I don't have to be a "fanboy" anything. You guys asked why people buy the Fluke instead. I don't think most of us really care if you buy a $.99 multimeter from Harbor Freight. We're simply answering the question that was asked.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 10:23:19 am
content: Pomona is the definition of overpriced garbage. And IIRC they are owned by Fluke. I ordered some BNC and banana to alligator cables from them, paying a lot more than other brands, thinking I was getting quality goods. The BNC jacks aren't even machined properly. You can see the metal where the bnc ball rolls into is crooked and requires a lot of force to tighten and untighten them. My $3 Amphenol bnc terminator tightens like butter and is precision machined. Most of their other cables, including the ones I got, are pvc and rated to 3A instead of 10A and something stupid like 30V DC if touching the INSULATED cable...Based on Dave's video, the 869 has a ridiculously fast continuity tester, and is basically latched. It's $224 now on TME, I linked it in the first page.You don't need a 99 cent harbor freight meter to last a life time if probing mains. It's the last thing you'll ever do.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 10:45:14 am
content: Quote from: Armxnian on May 30, 2015, 10:23:19 amNah,this£5000 Damien Hirst "artwork" consisting of full ashtrays, half-filled coffee cups, empty beer bottles and old newspapers is the definition of overpriced garbage.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 12:17:22 pm
content: My pomona probes are very nice, and less than $20. What are you talking about? They're nicer than the ones that originally came with the Fluke, and they're cheap.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 03:12:19 pm
content: Quote from: Armxnian on May 30, 2015, 07:07:20 amI'm calling UL, TÜV, Veritas, Dekra and all the other and tell them they can close shop now...

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 03:45:16 pm
content: The car analogy was funny, but wrong. A better analogy would be comparing a Hummer 1 to a new town car.One camp keeps mentioning that "But the hummer can take bullets, can step on a land mine and will still work in 40 years with no maintenance." while the other camp argues for a car that has low consumption, handles better, is faster, has mp3 player, double AC, heated seats, voice recognition, a 5 star crash test rating and costs 3 times less.I think that if you pay MORE for a meter that offers something you don't need and has less of something you actually need, just because it's a cool "war machine", you're just like the guys who buy Hummer 1s.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 04:42:23 pm
content: Quote from: Armxnian on May 30, 2015, 09:16:14 amI agree on the low end. I think something like a Brymen BM257 makes a lot of sense. If you only wanted to spend just above $100 I would probably get a Brymen.Yeah most of Fluke's low end meters are really more suited to an Electrician. And it kind of makes sense. When they set out to design a meter they first design in the protection, and there isn't much budget left for the low power features. They don't cut corners on safety. Those HRC fuses aren't cheap, and they are a big portion of the meter budget. But some of it is also definitely because they don't want to cannibalize their product line.I will admit that some of my preference for Fluke isn't exactly rational, that's the thing with preferences. I like the way it feels and looks, the specs it has are way past the level of sufficiency for what I use it for. But I also think that the specs on the Brymen are overstated. If I need 5 1/2 digit + resolution I use my bench meter. That's why they have a heated voltage ref. Something I would never want in a DMM for battery reasons.87V's dial is the best dial I've used. The way it clicks into place is just different from any other brand. And it exudes quality.There is definitely a "Fluke tax". But I wouldn't exactly call it overpriced. They are one of the rare companies who still make meters inhouse (not in Asia, at least their higher end products) and that means it costs more to produce. The quality advantage is definitely there.Don't get me wrong though I am not saying Brymen isn't potentially a better bang for your buck, it perhaps is. But I like Fluke. And for an instrument I use daily and a product which lasts for decades, $80 saved on an off brand makes little sense. To me at least.

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 06:27:11 pm
content: I can say why I buy Fluke meters, this is because I want DMM's I can trust and is easy to use.I do also buyAgilentKeysight, they are cheaper and I do also trust them, but they are more complicated to use.If I had to be very careful with the money I would probably not buy Fluke.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 06:43:01 pm
content: $224 + $35 shipping, 1 year warrantyhttp://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm869s/#td89215072647ba5bb06d6bee18487a6fYou don't pay for the lifetime warranty but still get the same meter that is sold with one. To each his own.$414 +$9 shipping, includes calibration certificate, lifetime warrantyhttp://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-860A-C-COUNTS-DM-860A-CALIB/dp/B007YUIOXOYes, more expensive than the 87V and I am sure if it were that way for Brymen I would buy a Fluke too. The difference is the features and specs might push the Brymen over the Fluke in some eyes. There are some here that would argue neither is worth the money and you should rely on your cheap multimeter's leads to be the fuses."Crap continuity"? That is in the eye of the beholder. Some people prefer non-latched and some prefer.As I said, people will buy what makes them more comfortable and Fluke has a long standing reputation that no one else has.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2015, 02:34:16 am
content: Quote from: Armxnian on May 30, 2015, 07:07:20 amI didn't even have to do any work.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2015, 04:32:09 am
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on May 31, 2015, 02:34:16 amIf you're going to rearrange my words out of desperation at least make it so they make sense to what you write under it. If you can't tell if a piece of test equipment is built well or not by looking at the circuit design and components then you either have no experience or are damaged in one or more sensory receptors. Dave and other reviewers do teardowns and analyze the build quality of a product by looking at it. Are you saying that method is invalid? Your last two posts in reference to my original statement included a nonsensical car analogy and no mention on why what I said was questionable.

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 03:51:20 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on May 30, 2015, 06:43:01 pmYou missed the one without Calibration:http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-860A-DMM-500K-COUNTS/dp/B00J9S1P8A/ref=sr_1_10?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1435074267&sr=1-10&keywords=DM-860A$347.87 + $9 shipping from the same seller as the one you linked to.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 08:32:28 pm
content: What is preferred? Latched or non-latched? How to recognize for sure?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 10:45:57 pm
content: Some people prefer latched, if it is fast enough. The reason is that it can catch a transient connection and hold it long enough for you to hear it. If it is not implemented correctly it can hold on to a latched condition too long and you can miss an intermittent connection, or it can wait to long to wait and miss a quick transient connection.Some people prefer non-latched because it gives you the naked truth. But in giving you an unfiltered indication of a connection it can sound scratchy and weak. If a transient connection is to short you might not hear it whereas aproperly implementedlatched continuity tester might see the connection and present a long enough tone for you to hear it.Generally latched continuity tests I have experienced are either too slow, hold too long, smooth over intermittent connections, or all three. fluke has some of the best implementations and I would have no problems living with theirs, but I still prefer non-latched naked truth.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 04:45:05 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on June 23, 2015, 10:45:57 pmI wonder why it isn't user-selectable...

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 05:01:29 am
content: How many of you on this thread actually own a Brymen and a Fluke of the same class? I don't have a Brymen but plenty of Fluke. This thread makes me want a Brymen.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 05:31:43 am
content: I have a Fluke 27/FM and a number of different models of Brymen. I would not say they the 27/FM and any of my Brymens are in the same class. The 27/FM is a ruggedized and water proof meter with good basic functions and good accuracy. I purchased it to have for this function, and it was a bargain with the HV probe, RF probe, and case it came with on ebay when I purchased it.If I had a Fluke 87V then I would probably say it would match up well with a BM829s in features. They go back and forth on some features and accuracy on different functions. Other than the warranty difference and reputation for the Fluke and PC connection possibility for the Brymen they are close to being equal.Fluke 87V: around $400BM829s: around $200 (shipped to your door) or Greenlee version with lifetime warranty: around $240Edit:If you consider the BM869s: It out features the Fluke 87V, and has better accuracy and 50000/500000 counts, it costs less than $310 shipped to your door. The Fluke has a couple of features the Brymen doesn't, like auto hold for example, but the total count puts the BM869s far over in feature count. This and the 829 and 869 are CATIV/1000V safety too.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 06:38:58 am
content: Brymen's price is what makes it an interesting proposition, even though you have to order it from overseas if you live in the US, as the Greenly equivalent is more expensive, although you do get lifetime warranty with Greenly like you do with a new Fluke. On the other hand, there are great deals on 87V on ebay you can snatch all the time if you look around, since it's a much more popular meter. There are tons of Flukes on Ebay.87V's feature set includes some must haves for me that BM lacks, auto hold is a big one (I use it often, even on your bench it's handy to be able to refer to the last reading while you're going through a service manual for the thing you're trying to troubleshoot), fast latched continuity (could probably live with scratchy continuity but that feels like using a $10 meter), Fluke is also smaller (more room on the bench), 400 battery life vs 100 on BM..Few other things, 87V is better at: transient peak performance, you can test Zener diodes with Fluke with 7.9V voltage instead of 3.5, can withstand higher humidity. There are also small things like being able to center the bar graph, some other nifty power on features. Reputation to take abuse and perform in spec for decades.Aside from the AC defaulting in the current measurement mode (there's a safety argument for this), Fluke is great to use ergonomically, and everything makes logical sense. For instance if you're measuring in min/max mode, the auto power off is disabled. It's the little things like these where you realize it's a well thought out product.I own a 27/FM but the 87V is a notch above in build quality imo (not ruggedness). What I mean by that is that 87V just feels like it was made of better material. The dial is the best dial I've ever used.The biggest feature BM offers imo is resolution. But I find myself rarely even taking the advantage of 20K resolution mode on my 87s (I have a 5 1/2 digit bench meter which I rarely use.), whereas I couldn't live without auto hold. So when I considered getting a BM869s I got a 2nd 87V instead.But bottom line is if none of the features are a deal breaker for you: If you live in the US and have a limited budget and don't mind a 2nd hand ebay meter, there is very little reason to get a BM. As you can often score an 87V for less. If you want new and cheap, especially if you live outside of US, there are good reasons to go with Brymen. But if you want a good quality meter that will serve you for decades, you can't go wrong with an 87V.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 07:00:38 am
content: I have searched in the past and recently, but I cannot find anywhere on Greenlee's website their definition in concrete terms what "lifetime" warranty means in terms of years.For example, here is Fluke's warranty statement straight from the Fluke user manual.Each Fluke 20, 70, 80, 170 and 180 Series DMM will be free from defects in material and workmanship for its lifetime. As used herein, “lifetime” is defined as seven years after Fluke discontinues manufacturing the product, but the warranty period shall be at least ten years from the date of purchase.QUESTION.What is Greenlee's equivalent statement in number of years in a clear statement like Fluke's above?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 07:07:54 am
content: From one of the Greenlee manuals:Quote

author: Deckert
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 08:56:18 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on June 23, 2015, 10:45:57 pmFully agreed. I like Fluke's fast latched continuity test, but I had this one instance where it let me down:I was diagnosing a problem an older function generator - it had an noisy amplitude on the output. I was checking continuity on the selector knob that handles the different amplitude intervals. Basically it has one ground-pin and 4 pins used for 0.01V, 0.1V, 1V and 10 V outputs. Testing with my Fluke 177 revealed no issued with the switch.Eventually, testing with the Brymen immediately revealed a scratchy sound on the switch contacts when you fiddle with the knob - that meant they were dirty and required cleaning with some contact cleaner.--deckert

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 01:19:47 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 24, 2015, 04:45:05 amGood point! Why not make it user selectable: latched or non-latched, and also make the interval width configurable to fine tune to user needs/wishes.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 01:53:14 pm
content: Latched is supposed to make you hear a quick short, something you would miss on a non latched tester. Fast latched continuity is the way to go. Problem is most meters are slow at latching which gives latching a bad name. But fast continuity like on the 87 is superior to non-latching continuity testing.

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 02:18:07 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on June 24, 2015, 01:53:14 pmA fast latched continuity tester is pleasant to listen to but how do you tell if you have a dirty contact?

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 02:19:06 pm
content: Because it is not necessary. Top-tier meters all have latched continuity and can detect shorts of minute duration. Often, the resistance threshold can be adjusted by the user. On the Gossen 26S for instance, sensitivity can be adjusted from 1 to 300 ohms.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 02:40:26 pm
content: Quote from: iloveelectronics on June 24, 2015, 02:18:07 pmThe same way it detects quick shorts it detects quick opens. So it should still work the same. It's latching so it won't change the state as fast but at least you won't miss really short opens or shorts.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 04:35:31 pm
content: Ideally a latched continuity tester would change it's latching condition based on it's output level. So it would detect minute shorts when not beeping and minute breaks when beeping (which it would only act on after the latching period obviously).

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 05:21:38 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on June 24, 2015, 02:40:26 pmIt is personal preference rather than a real benefit, IMHO.Quote from: Deckert on June 24, 2015, 08:56:18 am

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 06:00:11 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on June 24, 2015, 02:40:26 pmIf it's a simple latch&reset circuit the chance of detecting an intermittent open is small (it has to happen immediately after the reset period AND last long enough to be noticeable).

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 06:02:43 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on June 24, 2015, 06:00:11 pmI disagree, once latched it reacts to open just as fast, provided the reset period has passed (the point of a latch, so your human ears can detect fast changes). For instance I can take two perfectly clean probes and just swipe/rub them together, and I will get beeps, even though I was maintaining contact the entire time on perfectly clean probes. So this tells me it is a.) quick b.) very sensitive.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 06:06:35 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on June 24, 2015, 05:21:38 pmThe advantages of a latched continuity test are self evident, beyond anecdotal evidence. So it's not just a preference.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 06:13:47 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on June 24, 2015, 06:02:43 pmThat's how it would ideally work ... only latching shorts, but not opens, is a far more straightforward circuit to create though.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 06:15:13 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on June 24, 2015, 06:13:47 pmYup, that's how it works on my 87V here. It fast latches on both shorts and opens.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 06:35:00 pm
content: Quote from: nukie on June 24, 2015, 05:01:29 amI would be curious to see what Brymen has to compete on the benchmeter space, but no one has suggested a thing. I actually have a few Fluke bench meters so I could do an A-to-B comparison.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 08:29:16 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on June 24, 2015, 06:06:35 pmReally? You discount the actual use of two types of continuity and the failure of one to solve the problem, while the other did? That is more than "self evident" as it is a real world example. It is not anecdotal, it is an empirical result. Belief does not overcome real world results....

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 08:37:23 pm
content: Tell Keysight, Fluke or Gossen that you like their meters, but they've got it wrong with their continuity detection and you may raise a few eyebrows.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 09:28:10 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on June 24, 2015, 08:29:16 pmI didn't want to be rude, but I don't believe the evidence presented is actually a valid test. I challenge anyone to reproduce it. If I can rub two perfectly clean probes together without ever breaking contact and get consistent beeps, then I am confident a faulty contact would have beeped as well. I've never heard anyone complain about Fluke's continuity, it's generally considered one of the best in the industry.Now it is possible the potentiometer he was testing may have been triggering different threshold regions and the two meters might have different thresholds (they probably do), but that's more of Brymen getting lucky than a valid comparison. On a different resistance, Fluke will detect what Brymen won't etc..Brymen didn't implement some more advanced contact detection method. It's just a non latching continuity test, something Beckman and Fluke improved upon 30-40 years ago.Fluke 87V's continuity test detects opens or shorts down to a single millisecond. A pulse 3 milliseconds long must have a level about 15dB higher to sound as loud as a 0.5-second (500 millisecond) pulse. Tones and random noise follow roughly the same relationship in loudness vs. pulse length. Something you would never hear out of a buzzer if the continuity test wasn't latching.There is no question, fast latching continuity test is superior.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 10:23:33 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on June 24, 2015, 08:37:23 pmI cannot speak for Fluke or Gossen, but the guys are Keysight seem to really welcome feedback that may be dubious. They may ask questions to dig deeper and find out what it is you'rereallytrying to get out of the thing and, if it's possible, show you how to do it with the existing product. If they can't, and they think their solution is better, they're very good at explaining why they came to the decision they did. It makes a very compelling case. Pretty good bunch of guys.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 11:14:58 pm
content: From Wikipedia:There are times when a simple continuity test fails to reveal the problem. For example, vibration-induced problems in automobile wiring can be extremely difficult to detect because a short or open is not maintained long enough for a standard tester to respond.In these applications a latching continuity tester is used. A more complex device, it detects intermittent opens and shorts as well as steady-state conditions. These devices contain a fast acting electronic switch (generally a Schmitt trigger) forming a gated astable oscillator which detects and locks (latches) the indicator on an intermittent condition with a duration of less than a millisecond

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 11:30:19 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on June 24, 2015, 08:37:23 pmI don't care whose eyebrows I raise. I stated a preference and did not say that one method was demonstrably and objectively better than another. If someone else likes latched better, who cares? I don't. I was merely answering a question why some like non-latched and why some prefer latched.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 11:35:57 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on June 24, 2015, 09:28:10 pmI simply stated why people might prefer one mode over another. A person jumped in to say that he actually had a case where my preference was justified. Now you call him a liar, incompetent or mistaken. You do this with what evidence?Prefer latched or non-latched, I DON"T CARE. I was merely answering why some people prefer it and some don't. It was not a statement of a fact as to which was objectively better. I even said that latched could detect things that non-latched could not. I hate straw men.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 11:43:54 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 24, 2015, 04:45:05 amI agree,that would be the best of both worlds!

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 11:59:18 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on June 24, 2015, 11:35:57 pmNever called him a liar. If you bothered to read my response you would have noticed I had a perfectly good explanation as to why different continuity thresholds may produce different results in a specific scenario when measuring at a certain resistance bias, this has nothing to do with latched vs unlatched continuity. You somehow used this one corner case to equate the technical merits between latched and non latched continuity tests, which is wrong.Let me elaborate. Let's say Fluke has a 5 ohm threshold, and Brymen has a 10 ohm threshold when measuring continuity. If you're measuring a potentiometer which has a bad contact at the 10 ohm region, then Brymen is going to exhibit scratchiness. Because the potentiometer is exhibiting the issue right at the threshold Brymen happens to use for continuity. But that doesn't make it better. Because you could be measuring a faulty potentiometer which has issues at 5 ohms. And then Fluke would beep and indicate an issue and Brymen wouldn't. This has nothing to do with the continuity test functionality. As we're only talking thresholds here and neither is better, you can just get lucky with one or the other. So it's not a valid test.You may prefer non latched continuity tests, but you're simply wrong. Properly implemented latched continuity tests are superior in every way.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 12:03:59 am
content: The thing is that there is no valid reason to prefer a non-latched over a latched system. The latched system is always better, when it is implemented properly. It's like saying you prefer dirt roads over paved ones.Professional systems can latch on nano second transients, easily missed otherwise.As for anecdotal evidence, there is one Canadian professional quoted in the Fluke app notes stating the complete reverse of what Deckert was saying. So, go figure.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 02:50:15 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on June 24, 2015, 11:59:18 pmIf you bothered to read his post.... it was not a potentiometer, it was a switch. You don't want to be rude, but are willing to not even read the post correctly and are willing to make a whole argument based on the wrong assumption.I cannot be wrong on a preference, silly assertion. I said, and let me restate, that a latched continuity test can capture events that you might miss without. Can you read? I said more than twice now.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 02:54:59 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on June 25, 2015, 12:03:59 amSo one person supports the assertion that latched continuity was better in one situation, and that negates anything anyone else has to say about their experience in another situation? Really? You believe that? Because of that selective bias I can understand why you think you can assert that there is no valid reason. If you throw away data that contradicts your position, of course you have no valid reason (data) to support otherwise.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 03:05:48 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on June 25, 2015, 02:54:59 amBut we have data to support our claims. You have 2nd hand anecdotal evidence.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 03:19:34 am
content: Data, you have provided data?Where?I cannot provide evidence for a preference. A preference is a personal thing, not necessarily based on the same reasons as another person's. Again,for the fourth time, I have said that latched continuity can catch things that a non-latched might not. Have you read that enough times yet? Maybe you thought I was talking about potentiometers too.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 03:23:11 am
content: I can't see any data that has already been presented in the thread either.Please point it out.Also when it comes to bad analogies, this one is up there.Quote

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 03:26:09 am
content: Calm down. Few posts back I've covered the effect of millisecond sounds on the human ability to hear them, the reason behind latching in the first place. 87V can detect 250 microsecond opens or shorts, which on an unlatched meter is inaudible. It's the only "data" on the topic, filled with hearsay and anecdotal evidence so I understand how you could miss it.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 03:35:41 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on June 25, 2015, 03:26:09 amand you also said:QuoteWhich is correct? 1mS or 250uS? Your assertions on the audibility thresholds might be correct, but is not data. Do you have any references?I am calm, just can't believe the blind assertions and the errors in logic.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 03:40:34 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on June 25, 2015, 03:35:41 amBoth are correct.edit, also:https://sound.stackexchange.com/questions/28163/whats-the-shortest-sound-perceptible-to-the-human-ear

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 03:46:59 am
content: Where did the first screen shot come from? I have seen the 1mS spec in the 87V manual, but I am not familiar with the 250uS spec.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 03:52:14 am
content: From a 177 spec sheet/manual:http://www.colorado.edu/physics/phys3330/phys3330_sp15/resources/Fluke_177_manual.pdf

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 03:58:04 am
content: Thank you.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 03:59:32 am
content: No problemo

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 04:11:42 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on June 25, 2015, 03:59:32 amIs that an obscure reference to WKRP? if so

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 04:14:07 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on June 25, 2015, 04:11:42 amNo, sorry, I say it all the time..

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 06:43:35 pm
content: Interesting thread to read considering I have a Brymen BM869S coming in soon for review! I used to have an 87V but sold it a while back. It was a nice meter, solidly built but at the same time didn't feel like anything super special. If anything felt a bit dated. It's kinda like a 1990s Honda Civic. Nothing special stands out but you can run that bastard in to the ground and that is why it has the good reputation that it has. It doesn't feel like it was ever intended for real electronics work, more for industrial electrician work but there is nothign wrong with that.As for latched/unlatched I wish there was a selectable option because there are times I like each.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 07:00:07 pm
content: Quote from: PedroDaGr8 on June 25, 2015, 06:43:35 pm87V's biggest strength is that it has a simple UI. For a day to day meter I'd take an 87V over a "modern" Fluke 287 exactly for that reason. Can't think of an outdated feature about it. The whole point of it is a great all around easy to use and fast meter with a 400 hour battery life. It's as dependable as it gets. Besides can't think of a single "modern" essential feature it lacks.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 01:16:29 am
content: Quote from: Armxnian on May 24, 2015, 07:17:30 pmIs there a distributor in the USA? If not, any reason why?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 01:26:49 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on August 18, 2015, 01:16:29 amCurrently, there isn't a Brymen distributor in the US.I'm not sure they actually have distributors at all. But there may also be non-compete agreement/s with their ODM customers that sell in the US, such as Greenlee and Mastech, that would prevent an someone selling them here under the Brymen label.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 01:57:56 am
content: Is there a re-branded version of this meter? I looked and did not find one.Any problems with using TME?

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 02:06:41 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on August 18, 2015, 01:57:56 amGreenlee DM-860A is a rebranded Brymen BM869S. It is more expensive but it comes with a lifetime warranty.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 03:46:45 am
content: Thanks. I see a new home meter in my future....

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 03:57:02 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on August 18, 2015, 03:46:45 amI have brought this up before in other threads, but there is no quantifiable answer that has been given. If you buy a Greenlee, ask the authorized dealer this.In terms of years, what does Greenlee's multimeter lifetime warranty mean? For example, with a Fluke 87V, you get a minimum of 10 years warranty. This isclearlywritten right on the 87V manual.Where on Greenlee's website is awritten policy on the number of years?Weasel wording, marketing brochures do not count. What is it in number of years?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 04:49:23 am
content: QuoteI assume you called them. What did they say? I also put in a request for that and along with a few other questions I have about this meter. I'll let you know their response.Looks like about $100 increase from Greenlee using Amazon. That's a pretty good profit. I wonder if it is the exact same meter besides the case color and markings.More on par with what I was wanting from Fluke. To get the basic AC+DC put me into the slow booting, power starved unit. Dave's review on it was helpful.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 05:11:21 am
content: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/greenlee-lifetime-warranty-an-answer-almost/msg710524/#msg710524Already waiting for them to make it clearer.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 05:35:51 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on August 18, 2015, 04:49:23 amA verbal response or written email response from one customer service support personnel isNOTthe same as what should beclearly writtenon Greenlee's website.Imagine calling Greenlee 15 months later for a problem and saying well customer support person xyz back in Aug 2015 told me it was "lifetime" and then being told by customer support person abc saying that xyz no longer works here and that he was wrong.Customer support personnel should send/refer to a link on their public website that clearly states the warranty in terms on number of years.My question to Greenlee is asimple one? How many years is a Greenlee multimeter under warranty? 1? 5? 10?Their manual states "useful life". Useful life is subject to wide interpretation and IMHO weasel wording.PS. I see a lot of misinformation regarding Fluke multimeters with respect to warranty. Many people incorrectly assume/state how Fluke's warranty work and buy based on those incorrect assumptions. These assumptions are also being made with Greenlee products.PPS. I have no financial affiliation with Fluke and/or Greenlee. All I'm trying to do is find a concrete answer so others can make an informed decision when choosing their multimeter. I could care less what people buy as long as it meets their requirements.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 05:37:41 am
content: Way late to this party but why should that stop me.I've had a number of meters recently (buying and selling on ebay when I find deals really helps). What I've found is the 87 just seems to be a meter that never disappoints*. I have an 87-5 and had an 87-4, 87-3 and 87-1. I've also had a number of other Flukes including several 11x series, 170 series and older models. I have not used the current crop of larger Brymens like the 869. Looks nice... looks big. I have used the Brymen designed Amprobe AM-270 (older design) and the Greenlee 200a (smaller, current Brymen). I have real trouble suggesting someone gets a Fluke over a Brymen if they are going out and paying sticker. Even on ebay where deals can be had Brymen has been better for me. I found a like new AM-270 for $40. My Greenless 200a was almost free. It was given to me because it didn't work. Turns out the trace to the ground lug was blown. A bit of solder and a wire later and the thing works again.** So having used those as well as my Metrix and some others I just feel like Fluke, the 87 in particular seems to rarely disappoint. The 87 just seems to work right. The display seems to show just what I want to see and nothing else. The bar graph seems to move quickly and in all modes. The Greenless (small Brymen) seems to have a slow graph update speed. The bends on the leads aways seem to stick out over the edge. The switch doesn't feel as nice. These are all trivial things and it's worth noting they don't require you to pull the case appear to replace fuses. Still, the 87 just seems to feel right, the display works nicely in all modes. It's all non-specific stuff but, and I hate to say this, it's a bit like Apple in that you get the feeling if a feature was left out it was because it wasn't needed.In comparing the electrician Flukes the Brymen I actually prefer the Brymens. Cheaper and I feel like they do a bit more stuff for the same money. The Fluke wins in build quality but the Greenlee's probes are better (that seems to be a reseller specific choice). However, the Greenlee just seems to work well as an electricians meter. Things change when we step up to the 87. It's just such a good meter it's hard to pick something else... including the 87-4. The Amprobe is a great deal at ~$120 on Amazon. Great value but not quite as nice as the Fluke in many ways. I recommend the Amprobe to people who want a "good" meter but wouldn't pay $300+ for a new 87-5. If I had to buy a new (non-used) meter the Am-270 would top my list. Still, it doesn't feel as nice. The display is good but not quite as nice to read as the Fluke's. All and all it's like getting a high end Toyota and then comparing it to a lower end Mercedes or Caddy. The luxury brands are just nicer but they cost more for similar specs. Part of that extra cost goes into the little things. Things Fluke pays for and Amprobe doesn't.Anyway, high risk safety aside, I think the 87 is no better on paper but just feels nicer to use in real life. But there is a reason why I'm more likely to buy a top end Toyota vs a luxury brand car. I just can't see spending the extra at retail prices.*Well almost. The LCD's contrast was better on the 87-3, as was the bar graph. Also the previously mentioned mA AC vs DC thing.** Clearly the meter was shorted. The HRC fuse was blown but it appears that was not enough to protect the input trace. Since short circuits are something that is almost to be expected it makes me wonder about what killed the meter and would a Fluke have walked away with only a blown fuse?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 07:22:40 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on August 18, 2015, 01:57:56 amA number of members have bought from there without issues, including from the US.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 07:39:36 am
content: I've had a few problems with TME, minor ones though - and something you could expect from most suppliers. They will run out of stock of something I've ordered without telling me (even though it shows in stock on their website), and just ship my package with orders missing. They will reschedule a shipment for the missing orders awaiting stock, a couple of weeks will pass and they'll cancel the orders and refund the money for it. They've done this with plain resistors, so not something that became obsolete either.It's a real PITA when you have a project and you need those parts!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 11:15:08 am
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on August 18, 2015, 05:35:51 amSo, you would rather rant on a public forum than try and solve it?Quote from: Lightages on August 18, 2015, 05:11:21 amGood info on TME. Thanks!

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 12:13:36 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on August 18, 2015, 07:39:36 amThat would be annoying.BTW, has this issue been with just parts, or has it extended to T&M gear in your experience?

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 02:05:14 pm
content: There are no large scale comparisons published I can recall but in a past life, early 1990s, many thousands of DMM were bought by the US government over a 3-4 year span, including Fluke 70s, maybe 80s, Taiwan and Korean model re-brands, [Sperry, B&K, etc.,]. The idea then was any maker who met the specs of the bid, submitted a few samples for testing, were purchasable.These devices were rated to operated in harsh environments: year long treks at sea, deserts, jungles, ant/arctic, at or above rated altitude, and other things. They were used in electrically "dirty" conditions, working on life and death mission critical sort of things. Thesamedevices could travel to environmental extremes depending on the technician sent there, or the devices stayed in a harsh environment as part of a tool kit.By late 1990s, the initially procured Fluke brand meters operated as specified, even those heavily abused. Of other brands a good minority malfunctioned, over time the Fluke's remained and replacements werenearlyall Flukes. Of the non-Fluke procurement, some too malfunction, so by the mid 2000,nearly allDMM purchases are Fluke with little turnover of DMMs today due to malfunction. Its unclear which non-Fluke models those were.So, initial higher purchase price was recouped over the much longer operational use, low maintenance from ruggedness and calibration stability. While that experience speaks for Fluke and not Brymen, a competitor would have to live to up a similar reputation that took decades to establish across a single large organization.An 87V at McMurdo:

author: fanOfeeDIY
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 07:51:43 am
content: If I were going to buy it for myself on my personal usage, I will probably buy Brymen but if I were going to buy it for earning money, then it depends on the situation for buying Fluke or Brymen but it is easily to imagine I will be buying Fluke on many occasion.The test equipment like handheld DMM are used for both as own usage (hobby, your own projects and etc) and for the purpose for earning revenue and this makes situation complex.I like Brymen and derivative of Bryman such as Amprobe (it is Sanwa PC7000 in Japan) because the price is better for the specs and built quality, input protection, quality of LCD, speed of auto range, speed of update rate, speed of continuity test, quality of test leads and etc are reasonable (may not be the best but it is reasonable) and it makes me feel that Brymen knows what they need to do to make a good multimeter, compare to many other cheaply made ones.But if I have to select a multimeter for earning income or for the company then it is really depends on the situation.For example,(*)If I am an OEM factory owner and in the position to find the manufacture who is seeking for a good factory, then I have to promote or demonstrate the goodness of my factory. If my factory was using like Fluke which is well known top brand multimeter or using Brymen, then the later will probably consume my effort for explaining extra.(*)If my organization bought heavy industry equipment like power plant or military equipment made in US (which is the case in Japan), then the almost all the manuals for maintenances will be written based on using Fluke. Then the selection becomes whether to buy Fluke 83/87 or translate all the manuals for the Bryman.(*)If I was working as an engineer in the large electronic company and most of the top management is not engineering background, then I have to consider when making evaluation reports which will be less hustle if the data will be measured by Fluke or Brymen.(*)If I were employee as a service engineer to frequently visit customer’s sites to measure very expensive machineries, then I have to consider which will be easier to have better credibility from the customer if I were using Fluke or Brymen.(*)If I were in a position for procure department for the company and wanted to secure my job for my life as much as possible, then which will have less blames if anything happens on the mulimeters between Fluke or Brymen.There must be more examples, so there are many reasons for selecting Fluke does have good reasons.If it was for my *own* use, I will pick Brymen and ask my friends the Fluke 87V for a present for me because it is just a nice superb mutimeter want to have it someday.(Am I asking too much?)

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 12:26:35 am
content: No problems at all with TME. Meter arrived today, was very well packed and delivered in less than a week to the USA. And shipping was only $10 US! Thanks for the advice on TME!No plans to do a review of it. A few of us did a little shootout with it against some Mastechs, Extech, Fluke and the 8.5 digit Agilent. Meter holds it own very well.I noticed that they seem very conservative on some of specs. For example with a 10dBm 50 ohm signal applied, the 3dB point is around 390KHz. I was thinking it would be around 100KHz from the manual. Freq input appears to work to around 13MHz, was expecting a MHz. One thing I like right away is it stores the settings. If you select 50 ohm calculations, next time you measure dB, it's at 50 ohms. Overall, I'm impressed with it.Picture of the meter connected to -40dBm 50 ohm source. Notice the counter won't trigger at this low of a signal.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 01:02:01 am
content: As a side note, I had contacted Greenlee about their warranty. They responded with "lifetime". I tried to get some details on what this meant but they would not respond. For me the warranty was not a big deal but the price difference really made me question it. TME did ship the meter with their own written warranty. Again, no big deal for me.The two temperature probe with difference calc. is kick ass!Picture showing the meter reading a 2 uv signal off my reference.

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 02:08:16 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on May 24, 2015, 07:00:05 pmI worked at a company that made lifesaving medical devices costing thousands of dollars. These devices would come back to the service department with giant holes knocked through the cases. Some looked like they had been tied to the back of a car and driven for a few hundred miles. One came back with a bullet hole.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 03:17:42 am
content: @joeqsmith:I am very glad you like the Brymen. Are you going to give a wallop from your test rig? I would be very surprised if it didn't survive.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 03:43:21 am
content: Quote from: Nerull on August 22, 2015, 02:08:16 amBody armor vests ?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 02:46:30 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on August 22, 2015, 03:17:42 amBroke my $50 rule, but actually a nice meter. Came sealed, I assume for warranty. I opened it up anyhow and the videos don't do it justice. The design looks good. Imagine you don't have to pull out the circuit board to change a fuse like the 87V. It does AC+DC like the 289. It can measure two temperatures like the Fluke??? Looks more robust than the 87V I damaged and the document mentions the 12KV 50us surge. I think you could be right. It may pass the same test I put the 101 through but that pulse is higher voltage and double the width.If TechnologyCatalyst decides to run the meters he reviewed, I plan to run it along with them. If I had another 87V, I would toss it in there as well as I plan to make a new generator that will allow me to automate some of the testing. The output will be programmable so I can go back and repeat a test. Because of this we were unable to see how the Fluke 87V and the UNI-T 139 really compared with the other meters, only that they were not as robust as what I was testing to at the time. Here's his channel:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYVMnw_W7-Rq-yJk80vprug/videosShorting the inputs, I measure 45dBm. So I was pretty close to the limit. I have attached some resistance measurements with it. My home made high voltage probe is 200 Meg made with 1% 10W MOX parts. This is outside the range of the resistance range, so the picture shows conductance (1/Gohm) or 1/0.2G or 5.0nS. If interested, the probe can be seen here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/teledyne-lecroy-waverunner-64xi/75/Really not seeing a down side to the meter yet but it's only been a day.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 05:34:23 pm
content: Used the meter all of yesterday. There are a lot of features in each setting of the dial. It can take a few button presses to get what you want. This would normally be something that would bother me but with them storing the settings, it really enhances the meter. It's almost like you can customize how you use the meter. I really like the interface.So what's the downside IMO?Hold, what's the point? Rec works good. I like that you can scroll through the settings. It's not the fastest. Using a 10Vp-p 1Hz pulse with a 30% DC (300ms) is not long enough to get the meter to detect the peak. However, then there is Crest! They spec it at 1ms but my meter can detect the peak on a 840us pulse. Down side, you can't see what the input signal is doing. The second display and bar graph won't help. All you can do it turn off Crest and loose your data. Why it does not scroll like Rec to see the input, I assume is because it is so fast. Then again, I do own a scope. I attached a picture of it in Crest mode.nS, Ok, so I like it can read the resistance of my high voltage probe accurately. My old HP34401A can't even do this. But, IMO it's like having a meter than can't do AC+DC. Yea, you can carry a calculator to do the math but why would you? Just give me the option to show the resistance.Where's the second temperature probe? However, I am not a fan of these molded things anyway. The nice thing is the adapters for the standard K type from Extech appear to work fine with it.I don't care for the probes. Their quality looks good. Gold plated. They are just dull. Not a big deal as I normally would use my own.I checked the continuity function against my other handhelds. Data is attached. I did go ahead an measure the pulse width until it stopped clicking.Like others have mentioned, would be nice to have a cover for the fuses but really, sure beats having to pull the circuit board out like the 87V.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 06:14:28 pm
content: Yeah, Fluke's touch hold function is one I really like and use frequently. I seem to recall the hold function on the Brymen based meters I've tried wasn't very good. It's not a huge thing but it would bother me.

author: jancelot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 06:29:35 pm
content: Basically Fluke is very cheap in the U.S. and Brymen expensive. On europe for example is just the opposite.Fluke 87-V: $501.23 (europe)Brymen BM869s: $226.49 (europe)Somebody post the prices in the U.S. please.

author: Redeeman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 11:20:23 pm
content: would be interesting to see brymen vs fluke 101 in your test

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 01:37:57 am
content: Quote from: Bud on August 22, 2015, 03:43:21 amLets just say their use was often accompanied by a shout of "Clear!", at least on TV...

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 04:48:41 am
content: Quote from: jancelot on August 23, 2015, 06:29:35 pmFluke 87V: $404.99 shipped (US)The Brymen BM869s isn't officially sold with a Brymen label in the US, so it's either:Order from Europe ($226.49 + shipping)Get an overpriced rebadged unit, such as the Greenlee DM-860a ($356.87 shipped).

author: 5ky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 05:35:22 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on August 24, 2015, 04:48:41 amHoly cow they went up in price. I paid $314 for mine a few years ago from amazonEDIT: that was a little vague--I meant that I paid $314 for my 87V when I got it a few years ago

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 12:04:50 pm
content: Quote from: Redeeman on August 23, 2015, 11:20:23 pmI have no problems running the 101 again. It has never been apart and is still sealed.I did some comparisons between it and two other Flukes against the Brymen that you may find of interest. After owning the Brymen for a few days, I like it more than my Ex-tech which is about the same cost (if you consider the cost of the Brymen's serial interface).Enjoyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-4L2JarVxA&feature=youtu.be

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 06:31:57 pm
content: That was an interesting take on doing a comparison. You did test I would not have thought of doing. I look forward to seeing the BM869s take the hit from your new rig, or old!

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 09:50:51 pm
content: Where can I get a BM869 or BM867, or even a rebadged version in the UK. I've been using a Fluke 77 Series II for years. I think I need an upgrade

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 10:21:07 pm
content: I know you are asking for something in the UK, but as Poland ships to the UK and their prices are really good I suggest you just get it from TME:http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm869s/

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 12:53:09 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on August 24, 2015, 06:31:57 pmDid you want to just measure some resistors and voltages and call it good? Or just see if it spins on the table when I attempt to turn the dial?I figured I would show some of the modes that are normally overlooked. To be fair to the 87V, it was brought to my attention that is does have a crest feature that I was not aware of. Looking at the manual, it should have easily detected a shorter pulse than the Brymen.I have started to look at the design of a new generator. If I build it, I'm planning to stay in that max 20Jish range. Just enough to stress the protection circuits. You were going to design your own. How is that coming along? I would be interested in seeing your open and shorted output waveforms.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 12:56:09 am
content: Oh, that pulse tester is in the future, if I can get to it. I have some other things to get done first.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 01:04:57 am
content: Nice video Joe. What frequency did you use for the pulse width test?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 01:41:16 am
content: Quote from: Armxnian on August 25, 2015, 01:04:57 amGlad you enjoyed it. When I ran the min/max, crest test I was using 2Hz with a 2ms pulse. The 87V should work to 250us according to the manual for a repeating waveform but I am not sure if they gave a maximum period. 800us was about the limit of my Brymen. Both very impressive IMO for a hand held meters.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 01:49:52 am
content: The 'cheap' UNI-T 71D can detect a repetitive 10uS peak.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 02:27:04 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on August 25, 2015, 01:49:52 amI tried to find this in the manual but the only time they mention is the update rate.Will it give you both the min and max with this pulse width?

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 03:22:19 am
content: I can't remember where I found the Peak Hold details. Supposed to be 10uS minimum, with an accuracy of 1.2% of range + 25 digits.Edit: Found the info again: Cyrustek ES51966 datasheet: (Taiwan patent 476418)Here is the test to confirm it:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/uni-t-ut71d-review/30/

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 04:11:03 am
content: Damn impressive! Tried 40us at 50Hz, 3V peak. With your UNI-T, you almost don't need a scope.

author: naughtilus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 04:20:25 am
content: When I google up Fluke, I get photos like this one with the 87 IV:When I google up Brymen, I get photos of Kiriakos testing temperature of his kettle with the BM869:

author: 5ky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 05:19:55 am
content: Quote from: naughtilus on August 25, 2015, 04:20:25 amnever underestimate the importance of perfect tea steeping temperature

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 05:25:03 am
content: Quote from: 5ky on August 25, 2015, 05:19:55 amI guarantee the tea testing is more enjoyable.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 06:17:09 am
content: Brymen may not have taken such photos, but at least one of their ODM customers has.Greenlee DM-860a

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 07:42:04 am
content: Glad someone else appreciates the science behind making a cup of tea, When I go to the states I have a hard time getting a good cuppaQuote from: 5ky on August 25, 2015, 05:19:55 am

author: naughtilus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 08:25:20 am
content: If Starbucks buys a BM869 for each of their shops around the world, Brymen will easily buy Danaher Corporation.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 09:07:08 am
content: Missed this, thanks for the link.Are these prices subject to VAT on top or any other charges?Quote from: Lightages on August 24, 2015, 10:21:07 pm

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 09:19:15 am
content: I suspect you have to pay VAT (unless you have a business) and postage charges:They don't have stock, so the price could also change later.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 09:45:58 am
content: Thanks for finding that,So it works out about £174inc VAT + Shipping £6.84 = £180.84 As a comparison works out $284.36 USD $395.24 AusQuote from: Wytnucls on August 25, 2015, 09:19:15 am

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 12:15:03 pm
content: I wonder how the meters would handle radiated susceptibility.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 11:44:41 am
content: After a viewer had pointed out that the Fluke 87V had a peak hold feature, I put together another video showing how it compares with the Brymen crest feature. I thought I would also throw the EXTECH EX540 in the mix too.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 12:18:25 pm
content: Great videoQuote from: joeqsmith on August 28, 2015, 11:44:41 am

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 05:00:52 pm
content: Good question. In the archives of eevblog, the 87V went berzerk with GSM phones placed near the LCD, but a board revision fixed this but not sure it was a violation since the source had to be very close to the LCD to cause interference.True "CE" declaration also includes EMC compatibility.https://www.adafruit.com/images/product-files/2610/EMCCertificate_of_Conformity.pdfhttp://assets.fluke.com/manuals/101_____1aeng0000.pdfGreat video, as always.Quote from: joeqsmith on August 25, 2015, 12:15:03 pm

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2015, 11:49:41 pm
content: I am nearing the end of this little experiment and I hope to have at least one data point that show if the Brymen BM-869S I purchased can survive a transient that the Fluke 87V was damaged with.This thread should provide some good background if anyone new is just starting to follow along.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 03:31:27 pm
content: Why does the Brymen BM869s have 2 DC volt measurement options on the main rotary switch?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 03:59:33 pm
content: One selection is for volts, the other for milivolts. This is to switch in different dividers for these ranges to allow better accuracy. Each of these positions are for AC + DC also. If you look, AC also has two positions for the same reasons.

author: pxl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2016, 09:07:52 pm
content: Hi, I've just recently purchased a Brymen 867, please let me share few findings:- the switch is very stiff. Sometimes I have a feeling that something will break apart if I force to turn it to the next position. I will fix it later, because it is hardy usable in this condition- one of the connectors was decentered to that extent that is was almost impossible to plug the lead in. I fixed it with resoldering. It is okay now, but....- the beeper is way too loud and it is impossible to switch it off permanently: it beeps as no future with every button press. I found that there is a "390K" labelled power resistor next to the spring of the beeper (0.5W maybe), which is about 3 ohm. I will replace that, hope that will help.- the device is pretty hefty. I mean, ridiculously large. Not a big deal, though.Apart from these, no other problems so far.

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2016, 07:19:46 am
content: Quote from: pxl on February 26, 2016, 09:07:52 pm- you can turn the beeper off by pressing the range button when swithing the meter on. The setting is however not remembered, its only for the current measurement session. But if you make ik a habbit of pressing the range swith when turning on the meter, it is ok :-)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2016, 12:44:16 pm
content: Quote from: _Wim_ on February 27, 2016, 07:19:46 amIt that's true then I'd be looking at a way to short out the range button during power-up (or only connect the buzzer when the meter is in continuity mode).Even better: Send the meter back...

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2016, 01:58:30 pm
content: Most meters have a high impedance on low DC volt and mV ranges (2.5GOhm) to prevent loading low voltage high impedance circuits. Could someone confirm that the Brymen 869 has the same feature? All I can find is 10MOhm on those ranges (Brymen site).The docs are probably wrong, as, surely, Brymen owners would have complained about it by now.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2016, 03:24:44 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on February 27, 2016, 01:58:30 pmIt's actually 10Mohm for all ranges as written in docs, verified on mine 896S right now.I was aware about that before purchase, so i do not complian.Fluke's 87V standard voltage reading loads 10Mohm as well, the "high impedance mode" is only for 500mV range and isunspecifiedfor both actual impedance and precision (and has to be engaged with a key press on DMM's turn-on).My meter's rotary switch is on the stiff side but still acceptable, no problem with beep sound level and instrument size, both are comfortable to me (and yes, my hearing is good).I often use the double temperature reading function with differential readout, a neat feature not found in most competitor devices.I found AC TrueRMS voltage reading very accurate in audio freq. range as well as DC current accuracy and resolution on both 10A and 0.6A ranges.What i dislike is the LCD backlight, quite uneven on left side, plus the PC cable interface that miss standard USB COM profile adopting a bugged HID interface mode (it fails when you attempt ot import it under NI-VISA standard HID driver profile) and a ridiculous way to transmit the DMM readings (display's segments bit mapping), that translates into a huge PITA when you have to write your own logger application.But considering Fluke's ripp-off EU street's prices (official distributors please, not buy&die ebay sellers), i'm happy to have spent 230E (VAT included) for this one.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2016, 04:10:04 pm
content: Actually, the high impedance on mV ranges is not as common as I thought.Confirmed meters with an impedance over 1GOhm are Gossen 30M, Hioki 4282, Chauvin Arnoux MTX 3293, Protek 608, UNI-T UT71 (2.5GOhm mV range) and UNI-T UT61 (>3GOhm mV ranges).A few others go up to 100MOhm on mV ranges.Bench meters often have an option for a >10GOhm impedance, when required, like the Rigol 3058 or Keithley 2000 (permanent on 10V and below ranges)I don't know about the alleged high impedance mode on the Fluke 87V. I can only find a selectable low impedance feature. Normal mode is 10MOhm.From the 87V manual:When measuring voltage, the Meter acts approximatelylike a 10 MOhm (10,000,000 Ohm) impedance in parallel withthe circuit. This loading effect can cause measurementerrors in high-impedance circuits. In most cases, the erroris negligible (0.1% or less) if the circuit impedance is10 KOhm (10,000 Ohm) or less.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2016, 04:43:35 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on February 27, 2016, 04:10:04 pmFrom the user manual :

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2016, 04:54:07 pm
content: Gee, they really buried that one! Grazie. Would be nice to know what the impedance increase is. Anybody measured it?The Fluke 185 has the same feature.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2016, 07:23:10 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on February 27, 2016, 04:54:07 pmJust tried it. Using my DE-5000 LCR meter I measure around 10.000 megohms in normal mode and over limit with the Fluke in Hi-Z mode ... so that would be over 200 megohms?That is with the DE-5000 in DCR mode. Using the AC measurement mode, I get from 1.05 megohms at 100 Hz to 2.1 kiloohms at 100kHz (the 87V still being in Hi-Z mode).

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2016, 07:41:32 pm
content: Why would you bother to measure the impedance of a DE-5000? It is not a passive device. It is a pointless and meaningless measurement.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2016, 07:47:01 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on February 27, 2016, 07:41:32 pmHuh? I used the DE-5000 to measure the impedance of the 87V's millivolt range.Of course the DCR measurement is the most relevant. But the ESR at varying frequencies could be interesting to know ... maybe.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2016, 07:53:58 pm
content: Sorry, misread the post!

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2016, 07:54:57 pm
content: An insulation meter is needed to measure it properly. Something like a Gossen 27I which can measure up to 3GOhm at 500V. The Fluke's impedance should be around 1GOhm or higher.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2016, 08:08:49 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on February 27, 2016, 07:53:58 pmNo worriesQuote from: Wytnucls on February 27, 2016, 07:54:57 pm1 Gohm? That's insane. What are the practical applications for this?EDIT: Found this:"Yes, normal meters have a 10Mohm resistor on the input. One ones with "HI-Z"mode remove this resistor and rely just on the input impedance of the FETgate and other circuitry which is there. This value varies a *lot* which iswhy they typically don't specify it, they just call it "high impedance"mode. E.g. Fluke do not specify the value on their 87 meter, not even aminimum (BTW, hold the Hz button when you power-up to get this mode).When you need this mode, the input impedance can never be high enough! e.g.when measuring very high impedance circuitry (you can buy Gohm rangeresistors for example). Actually, even "normal impedance" stuff causes aproblem with a 10Mohm input. e.g. you can start seeing errors creep inmeasuring say >10Kohm stuff.The cheap Protek 506 & 608 are other meters that have this (not selectable)on the mV range. They spec it at simply >1Gohm."http://www.electronicspoint.com/threads/re-freaky-amazing-dmm.151941/Man, that David L. Jones guy knows his stuff. He should join this forum.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2016, 09:11:38 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on February 27, 2016, 08:08:49 pmWell, not exactly cheap, when available (now discontinued) they were in the 160-350USD price range, but i really wonder about their actual accuracy.For what is worth, i too used DE-5000 in DCR mode to measure BM869S's 500mV range input impedance reading 9.996 Mohm, while the cr@ppy V&A VA38 DMM says 10.000 Mohm.If i will have to take low voltage meas on high impedance circuital points i can always take in account 10MEG load value to make some compensation math, but it's not my usual work, otherwise I would have gone for a different instrument.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2016, 09:13:41 pm
content: Dave should know what he is talking about. Keithley gives the impedance as more than 10GOhm on their datasheet for the 2000.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 03:15:52 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on February 28, 2016, 10:08:13 amOK, but .. what's the point in showing this video here ?Maybe :- the5 timespricier Keysight 34461A is a better instrument ?- the ohm's law applies with DMM's voltage input impedance ?- 1 Gohm input impedance meter is better than 10 Mohm one when probing sensitive circuit ?Anwers are quite obvious for most of us without additional helpThe 869S voltage input impedance is spot-on official specification number so i do not see any reason to complain about that.Much higher input impedance is not always the best choice depending on electrical enviroment noise level, so if present itmustbe a switchable feature.It's clear that for frequent high precision voltage meas on sensitive circuital points a different instrument class is needed together a real, expensive calibration service plan (wihout it all those small numbers mean nothing).If it happens occasionally and it's not a critical task i can also use my BRYMEN and keep in account the applied 10MEG load.With EU street pricing (180E plus VAT) the BM869S seems an excellent hand held DMM, pushing the budget to 500E or 1000E will change completely the game.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 03:46:10 pm
content: Obviously, that has eluded you, but mos6502 was wondering what such a feature was for.Needs to be switchable? Tell that to Keithley; on their K2000, it is permanent on 10V range and below. Also on the K2002 (100GOhm!).No expensive calibration is needed for fairly accurate voltage measurements, compared to a meter with no high impedance function, as Dave demonstrated.Of course, this is not a critical feature for most people, but this thread is about differences between the Fluke 87V and the Brymen 869.I certainly was surprised to find out the flagship 869 doesn't have a high Z function, when the lowly UT61 has it.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 04:36:00 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on February 28, 2016, 03:46:10 pmForgetting for a moment the PC interface feature lack, the only problem with Fluke 87V here in EU is clearly the high price, with that kind of budget i would start to consider a bench DMM.Anyway i think that Youtube Martin Lorton's videos cover fairly well every aspect of this debate.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 05:02:58 pm
content: The question was why people would buy Fluke, even if it is more expensive. A high impedance mode may swing the decision for some buyers.There are plenty of videos on the internet. It doesn't preclude a discussion on this site, answering the poster's questions.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 06:04:24 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on February 28, 2016, 05:02:58 pmSure, i agree.What i meant is that Martin's videos, with actual side by side comparison tests with agilent and fluke DMMs, could be useful for the purpose but of course not substitutive to this discussion.About the high impedance mode, if actually limited to 500mV range for the 87V as i can understand, imho is not going to be a so strong key point in the decisional process, a much higher voltage covering would be required to become that, at least for myself.I'm quite sure that for companies the main answer to the OP's question is that "the employer pay the bill", while for hobbiest things vary a lot depending where one lives, here in EU the 87V is more than twice pricier than BM869S and nearby some decent bench DMMs, while in this regard US customers have a complete different offering.My answer is : the 87V has a better construction quality and Fluke has a better reputation, if priced within 300E VAT included (new from authorized dealer) it could have been my choice, but @ 500E i should find a very specific reason against the BRYMEN.Prices from buy & die ebay sellers are meaningless to me, at least with this kind of goods.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 07:10:02 pm
content: The killer features of the 87V:- 250us peak min/max. It's hard to convey in words how awesome this feature is. This means the meter can replace an oscilloscope in many scenarios.- 8V diode test. 'Nuff said. No other meter does this.- No backlight timer. Once you turn it on, it stays on. This shows a deeper philosophy. The Fluke engineers assume that the users are people who know what they're doing, not senile old women.Also:

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 10:18:30 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on May 26, 2015, 03:20:00 pmI'm surprised nobody disputed this absurd statement.Here's the actual facts: HP was founded in 1939, and Fluke in 1949. I hardly think that 10 years constitutes "a lot more" experience when we're talking about companies both around 70 years old, both of which were test and measurement companies from the start. Both of them make outstanding gear, they've just ended up specializing in different areas over the years.And let's not forget that the Agilent/Keysight handheld meters of today are not based on proven, old HP designs, they're the ones from Agilent's 2008 purchase of Escort, a Taiwanese maker of low-cost (but not bargain basement) meters. I assume that all the R&D of Keysight's handheld meters is still in Taiwan, though this is pure speculation on my part.I think it's fair to say that Fluke hasfarmore experience in making rugged handheld DMMs than today's Keysight. (Weren't there times when HP wasn't making handheld DMMs at all?)As for why I personally bought a Fluke 87V a year ago, when my 20 year old Radio Shack meter died: I'd been lusting for a Fluke ever since I was a little kid, having seen the ads and reviews of them in Popular Electronics. Do Ineeda Fluke? Hell no. But Iwantedit!

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 11:39:08 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 28, 2016, 10:18:30 pmIt would seem it took the 2008 acquisition of Escort by Agilent before they ever got into the handheld DMM business, as such a product isn't mentioned on either HP's or Keysight's product timeline or company history.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 12:34:06 am
content: Quote from: mos6502 on February 28, 2016, 07:10:02 pmNever a meter can replace an oscilloscope and vice versa, i unlikely would trust a multimeter for this type of measure, too many variables can distort the result.Quote from: mos6502 on February 28, 2016, 07:10:02 pmIt's a function mainly wanted by power led tinkerers for Vf binning, normally they search this for cheap, probably a small case number so most brands do not matter to implement that.Quote from: mos6502 on February 28, 2016, 07:10:02 pmI agree, but the definitive solution is to have both possibilities by mean of separate UI actions.About Hi Res digit rounding, sure it's not a deal breaker, to stop the moan it's enough to leave it in hi-res mode, that works a treat for tendency monitoring like Martin shows in many other videos likeSo not a defect but a killer app for BRYMEN.The Fluke main lacks are :- no double display- no pc connection- no nice price (at least in EU)

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 01:57:41 am
content: Quote from: markone on February 29, 2016, 12:34:06 amExcept the specs are absolutely clear on what that mode does and what the accuracy is. There are no random variables like with certain Asian meters. It's not a useless gimmick like on the Brymen.Let's say you want to plug your expensive Gizmo into an unknown power supply. You know the supply delivers the correct voltage, but what happens at turn-on? Does the voltage overshoot? You hook up your Fluke 87, switch to peak min/max and turn the supply on. The Fluke records any spikes and within 2 seconds you know whether the power supply is safe to use or not.Another example: your PC is randomly crashing every 2 or 3 hours. You suspect the power supply. You hook your Fluke 87 to the 12V rails and switch to peak min/max and let it sit. After 2 hours you hear a beep from the Fluke and the computer reboots! You check the min/max readings and find the supply had dropped to 9 volts. The beep happened at the exact same time that you launched a CPU and graphics hungry game, so you know the PSU couldn't deliver the increased load, confirming the defect.Or you want to know if your car battery is still good. You hook the Fluke 87 up to the battery and switch to peak min/max. You start the car and read the values. The battery voltage only dropped to 11 volts while cranking, so the battery is fine.In all of these cases, you would have had to use a scope if it wasn't for the Fluke 87.Quote from: markone on February 29, 2016, 12:34:06 amYou know what happens when you assume?Quote from: markone on February 29, 2016, 12:34:06 amNo, it clearly shows the engineers didn't think the design through. Either that, or they just didn't gave a shit. Wait, maybe that's the reason they design a backlight that makes an annoying high pitched sound. How can you rely on a meter that does weird, unexpected things?Quote from: markone on February 29, 2016, 12:34:06 amDouble display? What for? It's not displaying anything useful, like voltage and current at the same time. PC connection - again, what for? Data logging? There are meters for that, like the Fluke 289. But they suck as general use meters.And the price? Well, you gotta pay to play.EDIT: Oh, and let's not forget the 4 times longer battery life of the 87V vs. the Brymen BM869s.

author: pxl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 06:24:21 am
content: Quote from: markone on February 28, 2016, 06:04:24 pmYes, that's it, the prices (at least in Europe) are not even comparable. For professional usage these could not be a problem, for a hobbyist, it would be the very last equipment to think about.Quote from: mos6502 on February 28, 2016, 07:10:02 pmWell, probably we could hack the Brymen to disable this timer

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 12:02:08 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on February 28, 2016, 11:39:08 pmThat's what I thought, too. But in researching my reply above, I did find a handful of handheld HP DMMs, namely theHP 970A from 1973that looks like an immersion blender, and theHP 970 serieswhich seems to be maybe early 1990s looking at the date of the oldest manual. No idea whether the latter was an in-house design or simply a rebadge. (Maybe those were made by Escort??)

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 12:24:28 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 29, 2016, 12:02:08 pmItseemsthat they were actually made for HP by Yokogawa. They look like nice instruments, it's a shame they are so rare.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 12:41:39 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on February 29, 2016, 01:57:41 amLet's put things in this way :who will trust to PSU reviews where the output transient analysis is performed exclusively by Fluke 87V peak function, without DSO capture screens ?The random variables are on the signal nature, who assure you that what you are going to measure will respect the 87V's peak function rigid time constrains, beyond which your expensive toy will start to say you serious BS ?The answer is : a DSO, this renders this kind of feature useful only to take voltage reading with short touch and go probe action.Many lemmon PSUs out there source trains of very short pulses during power switch ON/OFF/ON cycles, well beyond 87V's peak detection capabilities.And when it comes to PC power supply .... LOL ... try to put an high BW DC current clamp probe on 12V power rail and watch on scope screen how fast are load transients, also here 87V peak detector is still a useless and deceiving function.Quote from: mos6502 on February 29, 2016, 01:57:41 amI wonder if you really wacthed those videos, the truth is there, no weird things with high res mode engaged, the BRYMEN has one digit more than 87V and it's working good for tendency monitoring, you have to accept it.Quote from: mos6502 on February 29, 2016, 01:57:41 amNo highed pitched sound in BM869S and talking about design flaws or crap component inside also Fluke has its OOOPS, like leaking supercap in 189 series.About double display i think that Frequency plus Amplitude or DC plus AC are useful, of course current plus voltage would have been better.Quote from: mos6502 on February 29, 2016, 01:57:41 amOne can play for a lot less, even better, if capable enough."Clothes do not make the man", yes it applies very well here.Quote from: mos6502 on February 29, 2016, 01:57:41 amWhat really i cannot forget is the 2 times price factor, for the rest is matter of taste or personal needing.I could afford easily the 87V, but why spend much more for less ?

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 05:30:25 pm
content: Today I was looking at the prices of Greenlee DM-820's on ebay (same housing as the BM869, 6000 count). So basically the DM-820 only lacks the 87V's 20,000 count mode. Used, in good shape on ebay seems to run just a bit over $100. Fluke 83Vs are going for as much.Crazy how much of a premium the 87 gets. Then again, I certainly like the 87V better for reasons that have nothing to do with safety or reliable readings.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 05:32:28 pm
content: Quote from: markone on February 29, 2016, 12:41:39 pmThere's this thing called the laws of physics. The output rails of an ATX PSU have massive amounts of capacitance on them. This means that the output voltage simply can't change that fast. Even a linear lab PSU will have a few 100 uF at the output, along with wiring resistance and inductance, limiting the possible dv/dt. Yes, there are instances where the Peak Min/Max may fail, like small microprocessor supply rails, where you just have a small regulator and a few uF and glitches can really be in the us range. You just have to use your brain. But on "big" supplies, the Peak Min/Max is perfectly safe to use. Try it out. Hook your PSU up to your scope, put on a large load current and then simply turn the PSU off. I bet it takes more than 250us for the voltage to even drop significantly. And of course, the 87V can detect glitches shorter than 250us, just less accurately:You can see that even at 50us, it's still good enough to detect glitches. The Brymen? Oh dearQuote from: markone on February 29, 2016, 12:41:39 pmVery limited real-world use. Say I remove the charge current from a battery. I know what's going to happen. The voltage is going to drop slowly. It's not going to go up. I don't need a meter to tell me that. If I want to measure how fast it drops, 4 1/2 digits are plenty enough.Quote from: markone on February 29, 2016, 12:41:39 pmVery rarely needed, and can be measured with a single display meter just as well, only takes one turn of the knob.But good point about the supercap. Yes, hardware can have defects. There also was the 87V GSM bug. But you know what happened? Fluke simply replaced the defective meters for free. If I buy a Fluke, I know that I will also get an excellent warranty that's good for at least 10 years. What about Brymen? Say your 869's display dies 5 years from now, what do you do then? Send it back to TME? They'll just laugh at you.Quote from: markone on February 29, 2016, 12:41:39 pmJust out of curiosity, have you ever used an 87V?

author: YU2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 05:51:49 pm
content: Thanks to this blog and mister David Jones I bought 87V. The main factor that attracted me is trustworthy of what it displays even after years and years of use. I don't have to use other meter just to be sure measurements are correct, I just trust him.Second reason is the safety, even that it's mainly use for low energy electronics and stays on bench I love good quality tools and the fact I can hook it any time to high energy source without any fear.And it was brand new unused but bought it second hand for the price less than bm869 with VAT would cost so if I understand lifetime warranty does not apply. But that was not the deal break anyway, since it's exceptional quality and has proven itself for years.

author: WackyGerman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 08:09:37 pm
content: Well , in my company where I work we only have Fluke multimeters . Because from the beginning on Fluke multimeter have one of the best input protection on the market , they are robust , don t need much energy to work , don t drift and are easy to purchase . Every year they go for calibration so we can confirm that they are stable as a rock . For company only these facts are interesting : safety , robustness and stability . 6000 digits are more than enough for measuring values . My company only made good experiences with Fluke multimeters so they keep going on buying these multimeters . One major problem of Brymen is the marketing . I only know two internet stores in Germany where you can buy Brymen multimeters , lots of stores sells Fluke multimeters and accessoires . Brymen offers also only a few accessoires . You can buy a magnetic hanger , the usb adaptor kit , silicone probes and that s it . No crocodile clips , no cases or pouches , smt grabbers , fine tip test probes etc. . Companies like to buy all that stuff from one manufacturer and Brymen cannot offer these things they need for work . Also a problem is that the website from Brymen doesn t look really professional and this scares the companies who don t know anything about Brymen . That s a bit of a shame . Brymen really build very good multimeters , another multimeter manufacturer know the quality and let build the multimeters for them ( Beha , Extech , Greenlee , Metrel , Elma , Elbro ) but the most end user don t know that s built by Brymen . I have a BM 257s , an Agilent U1242b , a Fluke 177 provided in my company and other multimeters so I can compare . The Agilent is a really good , fast and accurate multimeter , has a nice display with a good backlight but it doesn t make a solid impression and I don t like the range switch at all . It feels really spongy so it s the worst range switch of them . But Agilent offers lots of accessoires for affordable prices so this is a big pro for Agilent . The Fluke 177 feels really really solid , the range switch is the best , the display is not as good as the Agilent but it is not that bad and the accessoires are horrible expensive . The BM 257s also feels solid but not as good as the Fluke , the range switch is a little stiff but not that bad , the display is really good but it only has CAT IV 300 Volt rating so it not allowable to measure 690 V at the grid of a wind energy plant . The Fluke and the Agilent have 600 V CAT IV rating . My favorite meter at home is the BM 257s . I just need the probes for my measurements , the display is more than good enough and the range switch is also not that bad .I don t know what would happen if it drops from 2 meters on the floor , If it would then it is not that big drama , just bad luck if it fails . But in my job I am dependent of a multimeter . Would be a desaster if it fails when I work at a wind energy plant in the back of beyond , hundreds of kilometers away from my company and from a store where you can buy a replacement. Brymen still is a insider tip here in Germany . Fluke is expensive and don t have the most bang per buck but if you buy a Fluke you don t do anything wrong because they work well . Well you don t do also anything wrong as a hobbyist if you buy a Bryman . Fluke multimeters have the better quality but a Brymen is a really good compromise .

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2016, 01:59:27 am
content: Quote from: mos6502 on February 29, 2016, 05:32:28 pmDunno what you mean with "massive amounts of capacitance" but if you take a look to modern topolopy ATX PSUs where a single 12V bar supply severalvery high frequencyDC/DC converters to provide +5V, +3V3 and so on, you can findceramic capacitorand/or small low ESR electrolytic in output stages, sure not "massive" values (take a look to Corsair AX series, for instance).The voltage ripple/drop that you can find on those outputs under medium/heavy load could be quite nasty and very far to be monitored with 87V peak capabilities, an utterly wrong instrument to keep in account in this scenario.I could agree that with linear PSU it would come in handy in absence of a DSO, but nowaday everyone has at least oneQuote from: mos6502 on February 29, 2016, 05:32:28 pmI used a Fluke 189 for several years for ordinary task, the lab where i was before (yes, the employer was paying the bill) had a bunch of them, some failed, mine lost buzzer function after a while.Despite so i liked it, but you could understand why i do not consider them "foolproof".What if my 869S fails out of warranty ?Simple, i'll buy another one (or something else, if available), still saving money against a single Fluke 87V and taking advantage with :- double thermocouple reading- double display- additional resolution digit- pc interfaceall things that i care for .But considering that my piece of cr@p V&A VA38 still works after six years of continuos job, with its creaky & scratchy case, i will dare to say that this one has the potential to last waaay more.I do not have any personal interest to push BRYMEN products, i only think that for the price they are a smart choice for hobbiest, while professionals and companies, being able to deduct equipments purchases from taxes, will continue to be the preferred Fluke's customers.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 12:20:52 am
content: No, you have capacitances of several thousand uF in every PC power supply. The Corsair AX you mentioned?What do you think the big cylindrical things are on the right side?And don't forget that the capacitances on PC power rails are not just one the ouputs, but also on the inputs. Motherboards and graphics cards have a giant number of caps at the input.My point still stands, the 87V can reliably measure the quality of AC and DC power supplies and detect faults using its Peak Min/Max mode.One more interesting difference:Fluke 87V: Operating temperature –20°C to + 55°CBrymen BM869s: Operating Temperature: 0ºC to 45ºCEven if you're a hobbyist, the Fluke is still a better choice. The 4 times longer battery life, better diode test (forget trying to test HV diodes with the Brymen), much faster peak detect and lack of annoying backlight timer all still work in your favor. And if you buy a used one, it's about the same price as the Brymen 869s. Used Fluke 87Vs are all over eBay, used Brymens on the other hand, none.Look, I'm not saying the 869s is a bad meter, but if I could only have one meter, it would definitely be the 87V. The Brymen would be interesting to have as a second or third meter, though.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 02:03:08 am
content: Quote from: mos6502 on March 02, 2016, 12:20:52 amNot sure if serious.Think at least twice before to post, those are DC BUS capacitors just after PFC stageSecondary rails (5V, 3V3) DC/DC converters are on the right side of the picture on vertical PCB boards, including the one carrying output connectors, they are working at hundreds of thousands of Hz, please find those alleged "thousand uF" capacitors on their outputs and show us their images.Quote from: mos6502 on March 02, 2016, 12:20:52 amGood luck.Thanks to this post your perceived competence on switched power supply dropped near zero.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 02:30:13 am
content: Quote from: markone on March 02, 2016, 02:03:08 amSo, you're saying, those are 380V capacitors?Quote from: markone on March 02, 2016, 02:03:08 amModerator remove offensive text

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 02:40:08 am
content: Quote from: markone on March 02, 2016, 02:03:08 amPlease no flame war. Try to understand what the other is saying, it is not that hard.Personally a scope would be my preference, and I really like my Brymen meters.Quote from: mos6502 on March 02, 2016, 02:30:13 amYou should retract that statement. Else I will ask a moderator to.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 03:33:44 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on March 02, 2016, 02:40:08 amHow about everyone just calm down and keep it technical?

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 03:41:27 am
content: While it is true that peak detection is easier with an oscilloscope, if that feature is implemented on a multimeter, make it worthwhile or don't bother. 800uS doesn't cut the mustard, when the industry average is 250uS for a repetitive transient (Fluke, Keysight, Hioki). Brymen is clearly the laggard in that respect (Uni-T does 10uS and it works). Gossen doesn't bother at all with that feature, except on the Energy (400uS).

author: jwm_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 04:21:03 am
content: Quote from: mos6502 on February 27, 2016, 08:08:49 pm1Gohm is considered low impedance for many applications, good meters have 200 teraohm input impedances.Even keithleys older ones you can find cheaply on ebay have 10^14 ohm input impedance.It becomes important any time you are working with very high voltages, very high resistances, or very low currents, or electrostatics.http://www.tek.com/low-level-sensitive-and-specialty-instruments/high-resistance-low-current-electrometers-series-6500-

author: Tim F
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 04:44:54 am
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on May 24, 2015, 09:57:57 pmI can't speak for the BM257S however I have experience with numerous Fluke 115 which must be at least 5+ years old, used and abused at a university and still agree within 1digit of my own 87Vs (2013 and 2015 mfg dates). It really does build confidence for the Fluke brand when you see stuff like that.I actually really like the 115 and think it is actually a better 'every day' meter than an 87V. The range switch can't be beat for one handed operation. That said, the 115 doesn't have a milliamps or microamps range which is a problem if you need accurate <100mA measurements. BM257s does have those ranges.edit:oops really old thread, someone might still find this useful though.Quote from: mos6502 on February 28, 2016, 07:10:02 pmI haven't done any conclusive testing, but what seems to happen in experience with the 87V is that when you enable hi-res you are changing the entire operation of the ADC from 6000 count to 20000 count mode. It is not simply rounding a 20000 count reading to 6000 count. The reason I believe this is the case is because if you measure a voltage which produces the same count on both low res and high res modes, you can get different readings. E.g. you measure a stable 5.000V on low res, then you may get a stable 4.999 or 5.001 by enabling hi-res.So in certain situations (e.g. measuring 5.000V) it may actually be preferable to be in the 6000 count mode because you achieve higher dynamic range on the ADC and probably lower noise.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 12:57:55 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on March 02, 2016, 12:20:52 amThat does not surprise me!

author: 3141592
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 08:20:02 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on February 29, 2016, 05:32:28 pmI don't know why no one ever mentions other uses for the resolution other than watching a battery discharge, but the 500k counts mode sees regular use on my BM857. For once, it provides µV resolution on the mV range, and it worked great for monitoring the output of Wheatstone bridges for example. I also use the meter fairly often to match resistors, although it's only 50k counts in that mode. I have never had a need for the crest/peak function though. So I guess we can agree that different people want different features from their DMM.Quote from: mos6502 on February 29, 2016, 01:57:41 amUh, what? Not rounding introduces a maximum error of 0.9 count or ~.002% FS on a meter that has a .02% + 2 counts DC accuracy. It may not be the proper way to handle the 500k/50k conversion, but it's impact on accuracy is negligible. The backlight noise issue is also blown way out of proportion, as it's a minor annoyance at most and has no impact on performance. If you think these show how Brymen is uncapable, how do you explain away Fluke's blunders, with some of them being way worse than this?

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 09:33:53 pm
content: Quote from: 3141592 on March 02, 2016, 08:20:02 pmThey fix and recall their meters.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 09:47:19 pm
content: I am trying to stay out of this fan boy fight, but.....Both companies and meters have their benefits and draw backs. One can pick the ONE unique thing that matters to you and make that the most important thing if you want. That does not make it the most important thing to others just because you said so. Each has their own preferences. Some people prefer a longer warranty, some prefer a lower price. Some prefer a longer history, some prefer a better feature set. Some prefer Fluke no matter what. Each can be happy with his own decision. The point of the original question is why buy one over the other. It comes down to preferences.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 10:15:50 pm
content: Quote from: 3141592 on March 02, 2016, 08:20:02 pmQuote from: 3141592 on March 02, 2016, 08:20:02 pm+1

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 10:51:59 pm
content: Quote from: 3141592 on March 02, 2016, 08:20:02 pmThe reason why no one ever mentions other uses is because resolution is not accuracy. The accuracy is specced at 0.02% +-2 digits, the digits referring to the 50.000 count reading. Example: you're measuring a 5.00000V precision reference. The 869s could be displaying anywhere from 4.99880 to 5.00120. Those extra digits are nothing more than a gimmick.And matching resistors? Seriously? Let's say the contact resistance of the probes will introduce an error of 100 milliohms (which would be a very good value). That's 0.1% on a 10k resistor and 1% on a 1k resistor. A handheld multimeter is the wrong tool for the job. You need a bench multimeter or an LCR meter that allows for 4-wire measurements. Unless you don't care about a 0.1-1% error ... but then you might as well buy 0.1% or 1% resistors.Quote from: mos6502 on February 29, 2016, 01:57:41 amQuote from: 3141592 on March 02, 2016, 08:20:02 pmExactly. The whole 500k count mode is a gimmick. They Brymen engineers knew it wouldn't matter if they implemented it properly or not - they could've simply left it off.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 11:00:36 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on March 02, 2016, 09:47:19 pmExcept, saying it's personal preference is a meaningless statement. We're not talking about shirt colors.Whydo you prefer one over the other? That is the question. So far, a lot of the rationale of the pro-Brymen crowd has been based on something other than fact.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 11:02:07 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on March 02, 2016, 10:51:59 pmIt is not a gimmick. Yes, there is difference between accuracy and resolution but you do not always need that absolutely accurate number. Actually you might not care if it shows 4.99880 or 5.00120 but you might care if it goes from 4.99880 to 4.99889. Therefore you know that there was a voltage change despite that big absolute background voltage. If you don't have that last digit, you don't know if that change happened at all.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 11:06:30 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on March 02, 2016, 11:00:36 pmYou forgot to mention that all of those 6.5+ digit Fluke and Keysight meters are a gimmick too. Because, obviously, they have those "useless" digits too.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 11:25:01 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on March 02, 2016, 11:00:36 pmObviously it is pointless to converse with you because you ignore what I have said and only count what you want as important, just as I asserted.QuoteA lower price is fact. Some prefer a lower price. A higher accuracy for a lower price is a fact for Brymen. A higher CAT rating is a fact for Brymen. A lifetime warranty for Fluke is a fact for some. A well earned reputation is a fact for Fluke. There are others, but I feel I am wasting my time stating facts as they are ignored. Some people prefer some of these facts over others. Everything is a compromise. You obviously have your preferences and don't see that others can have their preferences that are valid for them, or are trolling. I don't know which is correct.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 11:32:58 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on March 02, 2016, 11:25:01 pmLol.I and I'm sure many others appreciate your efforts and even handedness, Mr Lightages.Continue to state the facts when the situation arises.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 12:14:32 am
content: You buy a (used) Fluke over a Brymen because if you buy a good model at a fair price (such as an 87V) you can use it for 10 years and as long as you haven't killed it you can resell it for what you paid. Try that with a Brymen(or almost any other "B" brand.)

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 12:18:18 am
content: Some factual reasons why someone may prefer a more expensive Fluke 87V:Low burden voltageHi Z modeHigh diode test voltageFrequency trigger on +/- slopeSmoothing option on displayBacklight on/off switch with intensity controlBargraph zoom modePeak Hold 250uSStandard hold and auto HoldBattery life 400 hoursHigh voltage warning on displayIP30 rating with 1 meter drop testLong warranty periodEasy after sales service

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 12:20:33 am
content: QuoteReally? You can buy a used Fluke and sell it for the same price 10 years later? Is that including inflation? I would love to see proof of this either way.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 12:24:18 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on March 03, 2016, 12:20:33 amPerhaps I am the exception and not the rule but I bought a u lightly used 87 series I for a good deal on ebay 10 years ago, recently sold it for what I paid locally. Quality/brand name test equipment often holds its value very well. I then bought a used 87V for the same price I sold the series I for, just had to watch for a deal on craigslist.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 12:30:06 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on March 03, 2016, 12:18:18 amLarger operating temperature range -20 to +55CBetter resale value

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 12:35:23 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on March 03, 2016, 12:18:18 amAll valid points in favor of the 87V, except the burden voltage of most of the Brymens is very good too. Another; "Easy after sales service" depends on where you are. The same could be said for Brymen, depending on where you are.It would really be nice if people would present a balanced view instead of just promoting what they want to promote. There are reasons to consider many brands such as Fluke, Keysight, Gossen, Brymen, Amprobe, etc. All have their benefits and drawbacks. Some brands are just not worth considering at all for most people either for high price or for poor quality.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 12:40:35 am
content: A "better resale value" is pretty vague. If I buy something for $100 and sell it for $50, is that a worse resale value or better than buying something for $200 and selling it for $100? What do you mean? Please be more specific. Are you talking in percent difference adjusted for inflation or just the simple difference between buy and sell price?

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 12:47:55 am
content: Burden voltage 1.8mV/mA on 60mA range, Brymen 3.3mV/mA on 50mA range, not bad but still nearly twice as much.If you live in Taiwan, I suppose after sales service might be good.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 12:54:31 am
content: Quote from: markone on March 01, 2016, 01:59:27 amThat double thermocouple is very nice!I like that the Brymen stores the settings. I really like the ability to measure 1G resistors. I wish I could measure a couple of UX FOBs in series but I have a power supply and know how to use it. I don't worry about the Brymen getting damaged. It's proven it can take a fair amount of punishment. Mine survived with a 6KV transient. The 87Vs I have looked at, not so much. The last one failed with a 1.5KV transient. Imagine having to remove the PCB to change a fuse. The frequency counter for the 87V I looked at last was only good for about 1.5MHz and my Brymen is not much better at 10 or so but really, I have counters and never use the feature anyway. Sort of like the crest mode. I have a scope and use it.My Brymen gets used more than any meter I have now and still has the factory supplied battery. When will it die??!!Down side after having it for several months now. Kick stand is too narrow for height of meter and I don't like how it is latched. The LCD cover could have been made of a more scratch resistant material. The continuity test on the Brymen is not fast enough to play Van Halen's Eruption.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 01:09:54 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on March 03, 2016, 12:47:55 amAre you trying to get me to list all the benefits of the BM869S again? Nah, I don't want to repeat myself again. Like I have said, every time, over and over and over, each can choose his own preferences. I just wish people to not be sheeple and do what someone else tells them is best without looking at the facts from a non fan boy point of view. I think I have even recommended a few Uni-Ts many times, Amprobes, Flukes, and maybe some others.....The fact is, each manufacturer and model from those manufacturers have their benefits and drawbacks. Choose what meets your needs, and don't pick one brand because the hordes say so. Education and honesty get you the best decision, not religion for a brand.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 01:20:26 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on March 03, 2016, 01:09:54 amHang on there!! You sir made me a Brymen Fan Boy!!! I never heard of them until you talked about shipping the one. So that's on you!And as much as I am not a Fluke follower and still would not consider one of their high end meters, I have to say that looking at how robust their low cost meters are, the worst of the them is still above all of the meters I have looked at. If they ever make a high end meter I want, I will buy it.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 01:23:41 am
content: The point of the thread is not about which meter is better, but why someone could choose to buy the more expensive Fluke over the Brymen, for a specific item he needs that the Brymen is lacking.We know that the Brymen is equal or superior in most other areas.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 01:24:41 am
content: Quote from: mos6502 on March 03, 2016, 12:30:06 amOr just Buy one Brymen, After 10 years buy another without selling the first one. Same money spent, 2 meters instead of one. One of them is new. With fluke, you would be able to change one used fluke for another used fluke.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 01:36:34 am
content: Quote from: wraper on March 03, 2016, 01:24:41 amThe problem with that logic is, I can get a used Fluke 87V for less than a new BM869s:http://www.ebay.de/itm/Fluke-87-V-True-RMS-Digital-Multimeter-/141917745559(Just an example. I have nothing to do with that auction. But used Fluke 87Vs go for around 250€ on eBay.de. Many of them in like new condition).

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 01:36:52 am
content: I don't own a Fluke 87V, but according to the instruction manual, there is no need to remove the PCB to replace the fuses. The front cover comes off, after 3 screws are removed.1. Turn the rotary switch to OFF and remove the testleads from the terminals.2. Remove the battery door by using a standard-bladescrewdriver to turn the battery door screws one quarterturn counterclockwise.3. Remove the three Phillips-head screws from thecase bottom and turn the case over.4. Gently push up the input terminal-end of the top casefrom inside of the battery compartment to separatethe two halves of the case.5. Remove the fuse by gently prying one end loose,then sliding the fuse out of its bracket.

author: jwm_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 01:41:33 am
content: Heh. this thread has convinced me to get a used 87V for $200. Of course, i already have many meters, bryman, fluke and otherwise. I think this can replace my u1272a (I also have a u1273a that is my goto meter, but keep the 72a for the LCD when i need to work outdoors but feels silly having two almost identical meters)Although in general i work on a bench, while installing solar panels I did drop my fluke 117 off a two story building onto concrete with no ill effects other than a very scuffed jacket, so, I am fairly convinced of their reliability (though pretty sure there was a strong luck factor there). Will bring my brymen up next time i am on a roof in case I accidentally get to make the same impromptu test and report back.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 01:56:29 am
content: Quote from: mos6502 on March 03, 2016, 01:36:34 amWithout knowing if it is not fucked up, if calibration is right. Without any warranty as lifetime warranty is only for original buyer who bought from authorized distributor. And the most of all, you never had a new meter, always using what other people don't need anymore (generally I have nothing against it).For 240-250 EUR (inc VAT) you can buy a brand new BM869S

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 05:51:16 am
content: Quote from: mos6502 on March 02, 2016, 10:51:59 pm100 milliohms measurement error on a 10k resistor is 0.001%. Seriously.Now what was your point?

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 06:07:59 am
content: The used vs new is probably a legit decision for us home users but not for many companies. If I were the purchasing guy for a company there is no way I would be buying used with unknown history. If we were working with high power I would worry about safety. If we needed high accuracy I would worry about damage that might result in failing calibration. If I didn't need to worry about either one I probably won't be considering buying a Fluke 87V. In that case a Fluke 115 or Brymen 257 based Greenlee would make more sense. As a hobbyist I'm very concerned about cost but for a company that extra $200 may not mean much depending on the circumstances. In others it might but buying used is probably something a company will try to avoid.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 06:27:34 am
content: Quote from: splin on March 03, 2016, 05:51:16 amYou are correct. My bad. So that would be a viable application for the 500.000 count mode. You could also use it find out the amount the meter drifts over time. I.e., measure a (low drift) resistor, note the value, measure again after 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month ... to tell you how repeatable the measurements are.

author: 3141592
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 07:35:49 am
content: Quote from: mos6502 on March 02, 2016, 10:51:59 pmSo? That's why I listed using it forrelativemeasurements, such as matching components or watching change in the output of a Wheatstone bridge, which is a great real world use, because it both needs measurement down to the µV-s, and high resolution, because the few µVs change may ride on an offset that's two orders of magnitude larger. I don't care if it's 1% out compared to a NIST standard, I just want my ADC to be linear. Resolution not being accuracy is exactly why they make you press a button to go between 50k and 500k modes and it's not 500k by default.Quote from: mos6502 on March 02, 2016, 10:51:59 pm100 milliohm (0.1 Ohm) is about what shorting my probes together gives, most of that is the cabling, I'd guess the contact resistance part of that is way under 10 milliohm if I make good contact. I'm not talking about those cheap 5$ ebay probes though. I would say that that's more than fine for 100 ohms or bigger resistors as 10 milliohm results in a 0.01% error on 100 ohms, 0.001% on 1k, 0.0001% on 10k etc...Quote from: mos6502 on March 02, 2016, 10:51:59 pmCan we agree now, that different people want different features from their DMM, and there are valid uses for the Brymen's high resolution?

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 10:34:13 am
content: If one doesn't have an LCR meter, up to a point, matching resistors is possible with the 87 too, as the HiRes mode (20,000 count) is available in the Ohms mode.'Watching the output of a Wheatstone bridge'. What on earth do you do that for? Can you expand?

author: 3141592
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 11:09:53 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on March 03, 2016, 10:34:13 amSure, I just mentioned it as an example for an application that actually benefits from higher resolution.Quote from: Wytnucls on March 03, 2016, 10:34:13 amStrain gauge measurements. There are of course application specific instruments for this, but having a meter that's able to do quick checks on the setup was great.I'm not saying either of these are everyday tasks, just that there are actual real world uses for a higher than normal resolution DMM.

author: Tim F
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 11:27:01 am
content: If all you want to do ismatchresistors then you don't need a fancy 20000 count meter anyway. Just build Wien bridge and measure the mV imbalance by swapping in different resistors for one leg of the bridge. As long as your resistor values/ratings allow you to put a decent voltage across the bridge (say 20-30V) without significantly heating up the resistors then 0.01mV res gives you pretty good resistance resolution (<0.00005%). Comparatively, using a Fluke 87V in high res resistance mode only gives 0.005% resolution. The probing setup in the former will probably be the limitation.

author: 3141592
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 11:36:40 am
content: Quote from: Tim F on March 03, 2016, 11:27:01 amWhy a Wien bridge? A bridge configuration provides a lot more accuracy sure, but if you work with ordinary resistors that additional matching accuracy will be swamped by tempco differences on just a few Celsius away from the matching temperature. So above a few tens of ppm matching needs it's just an unnecessary complication IMO, below that the tempco mismatches make it meaningless for most applications, because you should use specialty matched pairs anyway.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 12:16:14 pm
content: Read this paper about Wheatstone bridge and DMMs.It implies that a multimeter high resolution is not essential, to determine the resistance of an unknown element, like a pressure sensor.

author: 3141592
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 01:26:19 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on March 03, 2016, 12:16:14 pmWas this meant for me? If so, then it differs substantially from my use case, in that they use a decade box to dial in a state of balance and check for this state by looking for a 0V reading on the DMM between the two halfpoints of the bridge. With the balance obtained they read the value of the unknown resistance from the decade used to obtain balance. So they substitute a high resolution decade box instead of a high resolution DMM. The lower resolution DMM is sufficient, only because the error contributed by the decade is bigger. I just skimped it through, so if I missed the point I'm sorry.QuoteNote also that they provide a 0.1 ohm resolution. With strain gauges you have to measure a couple of milliohms of change on a base resistance of 350 to 1kohms, that gives you a couple of µVs voltage difference between two states with a 5-10V excitation voltage. Dialing in a resistance to obtain balance is out of the question IMO, so you have to take that minuscule voltage difference and read out the change in resistance.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 02:09:49 pm
content: I don't quite understand what you are trying to achieve.Is this application a home set-up or an industrial one?Don't you think that you are introducing a lot of noise in the system connecting your uncompensated DMM to such a delicate detector?Is this a documented and approved procedure to log sensor changes?Regardless, it seems to be such an extreme application, that it is unlikely to influence the average user.

author: 3141592
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 02:35:05 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on March 03, 2016, 02:09:49 pmHome set-up for experimenting. The DMM of course isn't used to take proper readouts, it was only used to do quick checks and I also acknowledged this isn't an everyday task, I just mentioned this as an example of where the high resolution was useful for me.I don't quite understand what you mean by approved procedure, if you mean using the voltage difference between the half points to measure resistance change, then that's a standard way of dealing with strain gauges as far as I know. See page 106 'Unbalanced bridge...' and Figure 17 on page 107 in this document for example:http://www.omega.com/techref/pdf/StrainGage_Measurement.pdf

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 05:28:13 pm
content: I have used the 500k count mode in my BM857 to get current consumption trends in ultralow currents (nA) via Dave's µCurrent.It is not a gimmick but yet another feature that, under certain scenarios and knowing its intrinsic limitations, can be useful.OTOH I don't give a flurry animal's rear end about backlight or peak hold on my day-to-day work - yet another feature that, under certain scenarios and knowing its intrinsic limitations, can be useful.

author: kasone
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 06:40:48 pm
content: Wraper, The Fluke lifetime warranty applied to me. If you want search my post on Fluke warranty for details.Also, one function that the Flukes(76, 77, 177, 179, & 83-V) that I have experience with have that I do not see mentioned is the fact that in the diode test mode, when the diode is forward biased, the Flukes give a short beep to indicate a good diode. Reverse bias gives no sound on a good diode. As a technician who does a lot of repairs, I appreciate this feature as I can quickly tell if a diode is good or bad while concentrating on where my test leads are at.If this feature is on other meters, I do not know about it.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 11:56:50 am
content: Quote from: kasone on March 03, 2016, 06:40:48 pmFrom Fluke website:Quote

author: kasone
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 12:34:18 pm
content: I am just sharing my experience with Fluke service.Others on this site have also reported this kind of service from Fluke, so I am not alone. see here: Multimeter repair time again! Fluke 177, reads -.8 ohmsFluke is a top notch company which is willing to help the users of their equipment in my opinion.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 01:14:44 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 04, 2016, 11:56:50 amThat's just to insure themselves if they decide for whatever reason to deny claims. It's like Victorinox, their warranty states that abuse and normal wear is not covered, but when you send in a knife with a broken off blade, or even a knife where nothing is broken and it's just scratched and dinged up, they just send you a brand new one, no questions asked.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 04:02:01 pm
content: I find it interesting that when it comes to the discussion of warranties, only the letters of a warranty as written are important when it is some company that people don't want to trust, but when it is a company they prefer to trust anecdotes are more than sufficient to support their position.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 05:12:03 pm
content: Quote from: kasone on March 04, 2016, 12:34:18 pmAs anecdotal evidence, Brymen also gave me good service on a meter out of warranty and purchased at eBay. Check:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/excellent-brymen-customer-support/Quote from: Lightages on March 04, 2016, 04:02:01 pmLightages, I agree this is unfair but as I said in theother thread:Brymen, on the other hand, will always be put to test in its pursuit of perfection.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 10:05:30 pm
content: I wonder if Fluke will exchange my volt stick? I accidentally gave it a wash with my clothes.After drying it out it and changing batteries it does seem to mostly work but I no longer trust it.Hopefully it will no questions asked, but somehow I doubt it.I will give them a try.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 10:26:44 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on March 04, 2016, 05:12:03 pmOh I agree this is a fact of life. The newcomer, or underdog, is always put under more scrutiny than the established players, regardless of any recent problems for the established. It is the way for anything and anyone. Then there are some who are religious in their faith of a brand without any chance of consideration for a different brand. I think the word "religion" is quite apt.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 11:31:27 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on March 04, 2016, 10:26:44 pmIndeed, it's almost like some people think Bryman is the meter messiah

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 11:48:30 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on March 04, 2016, 11:31:27 pmAre you referring to me? If not, who?

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 02:13:58 am
content: I really wish that Dave would lock this thread. It is nothing more than dick waving contest between Fluke fanboys and Brymen Fanboys.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 11:32:53 am
content: Why? As long as it stays civilized, it is beneficial to highlight the strong and weak features of both meters. That should answer the OP's original question. There is no bad meter here, just different beasts. Pick the one that fits your needs better.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2016, 08:46:09 pm
content: After watching some videos it seems that Fluke has a better fuse access than Brymen. Why can't all Brymen meters be like BM257?Overall, Brymen is still very good bang per buck.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2016, 09:00:36 pm
content: I would guess that it is difficult, and expensive, to design and build a CATIV/1000V meter with easy fuse access.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2016, 09:34:05 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on April 24, 2016, 08:46:09 pmAccess to change the fuse is a very minor point, itshouldbe an item that seldom needs to be replaced.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2016, 11:25:59 pm
content: Yes, but I like when fuses are easy accessible. Unlike my Uni-t UT70A.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2016, 08:48:08 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on April 24, 2016, 11:25:59 pmIf you're blowing a lot of fuses then you're doing something wrong.Opening up a meter to change a fuseshouldbe a punishment - to remind you not to do that again.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2016, 10:09:58 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 25, 2016, 08:48:08 amI have no way, ADHD makes me do dumb things quite often.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2016, 04:05:16 pm
content: QuoteNo, I am not.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2016, 04:09:49 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on April 25, 2016, 04:05:16 pmThen what's the problem?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2016, 04:13:09 pm
content: Quote from: timofonic on April 25, 2016, 10:09:58 amBlow your last fuse then get one of these:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-look-at-the-uni-t-ut210e/Problem solved.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2016, 04:20:59 pm
content: Quote from: PedroDaGr8 on March 05, 2016, 02:13:58 amAt least that means there is not just all Fluke fanboi's around , how boring would that be!

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2016, 05:45:19 pm
content: Do Fluke, Hioki and Keysight DMMs have lower power consumption than Brymen? According to product datasheets I think so.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2016, 05:55:22 pm
content: Quote from: PedroDaGr8 on March 05, 2016, 02:13:58 amOf course! With a subject line like that? I'd be disappointed if it wasn't - it would mean the forums are dead.People in here waving dick means the forums are alive and well. No need to lock anything.

author: ZeTeX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2016, 05:57:23 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on March 04, 2016, 10:05:30 pmAnd I taught that my dad is the only one who forget things in the pockets who later go to wash (aka money).they should put make "washing machine safe (WMS)" products.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 01:02:20 am
content: From the manual, it looks like the BM869s draws about 6.5mA. It uses a single transistor battery. An Energizer 522 at 25ma draw looks like about 600mAh. Call it about 100 hours.The Hioki DT4282 uses four AAs and will operate for 100 hours.The HIOKI I looked (DT4252) at uses four AAA and will operate for 130 hours.The Fluke 289 uses six AA and will operate for 100 hours.I wonder what the OLED Keysight is.As bad as those seem, the UNI-T I last played with worked out to about 40 hours between charges. That's assuming the meter survives that long!Then again, I bet some of the pocket meters I am looking at are lower power than all of the above AND... they don't cost as much!!Quote from: Hydrawerk on May 04, 2016, 05:45:19 pm

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 01:15:22 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on May 05, 2016, 01:02:20 amFrom the specifications...

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 01:39:05 am
content: Wow!!?? 8 hours!! So, to be real honest, after running the power sucking UNI-T I really could not complain about it. 40 hours of life was more than enough for what I would call a portable bench meter. So 36 on the U1252B, as long as I can recharge it, would not be too much of a problem. But 8???!! That's not even a full work day!Sorry, I couldn't meet the schedules due to the fact I had to keep changing my meter's batteries. To prevent this in the future, I have added a task to the schedule to allow for a battery change a day. We plan to assign this task to the new intern to save costs. We also had the purchasing department work on getting us volume pricing for the batteries and we have budgeted for this ....8 hours....Quote from: nanofrog on May 05, 2016, 01:15:22 am

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 06:16:19 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on May 05, 2016, 01:39:05 amFWIW, I've a U1252B (~4.5x better battery life). And although ~36hrs. is worse than the other models mentioned, I don't find it all that big of an issue as I have rechargeable batteries ready to go on-hand (under a minute to do a battery swap isn't so horrible IMHO).Particularly as I find it's a very good meter, battery life not withstanding *.Of course, the fact I got it at a good price doesn't hurt either ($100 rebate from Agilent + Allied was dumping stock due to having dumped or lost their distributorship at the time).* Battery life didn't hurt, but display lifetime of the OLED display on the U1253B was the main factor in my decision process to purchase this particular meter.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 12:42:58 pm
content: I have also decided to buy the BM869S but I can only find it on TME.EUI've sent them 4 emails during the last 48 hours and got no response...I am not %100 sure its a wise choice to buy form TME. On top of that,the battery compartment of the BM869S scares me...Shall I pull the trigger?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 12:55:00 pm
content: TME does seem to handle the sale OK. Many people have purchased from them. Where they fall down is when it comes to customer communication and service. You are not likely to find a better price.

author: pxl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 12:56:52 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on June 17, 1970, 06:29:38 amWell, there are no alternatives, if you want a reliable, fast and 5 digit meter near this price. Ahh, wait. There is!BM 867

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 01:02:19 pm
content: You are right I guess.I think I will buy it and see what happens.Just before I press the BUY NOW button... do you think that there is a better multimeter at this price range?From the little research I did, this looks like the best multimeter for the price.(but again, I cannot believe how they choose this kind of battery connection)BM867 was indeed my first choice, but I've heard that they use lesser quality fuses.I don't really care about the VDF.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 01:17:04 pm
content: On the other hand, looking at my number of posts just before this one, maybe this is not a good idea.So, one more post for better luck...

author: pxl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 01:41:26 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on May 05, 2016, 01:02:19 pmI don't know any other meters in this range (available in EU). Probably some Keysight (U1241B, U1242B, U1241C, U1242C) (10000 counts), but I have no trust with that brand at all. The youtube is full with videos of failedAgilentKeysight meters (probably it is because they sell a lot, and the expectations are high), and some meters does not measure current in particular ranges, which is wtf for me.However, if you will find another one, that's great, you will need more DMMThere are 2 things which bothers me:1., the beeper is so loud, that my glasses always breaks when I turned it on. No problem, I bought already a power resistor to replace the 3 ohm in there, that will solve this problem.2., the display light has a timeout, which, I would say is unacceptable, but I never used it (I use it as a desktop meter), so it is just a theoretical issue for me. Still an issue!+1: the encoder switch is too stiff, definitely needs some lubricants, but I can live with that for now.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 01:49:33 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on May 05, 2016, 12:42:58 pmThey ignored two emails from me as well, and I had already paid. Just relax, life is too short to get wound-up over this stuff. I got my meter in around 4 days shipped to Canada.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 01:52:41 pm
content: QuoteGood thing if you are using it in an industrial environment.No need for resistors. Some blue tack on top of the buzzer will make it a lot sweeter.QuoteHmmm, that is not good.QuoteIt looks disproportionately small as well. Maybe that's why.QuoteIt looks like that they have a lot of customers and not a lot of staff, so they are focusing onshipping as the first priority.I think I will buy it.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 02:18:46 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on May 05, 2016, 12:42:58 pmCan you elaborate on your concern about the battery compartment?What scares you about it?

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 02:25:21 pm
content: QuoteThis : ....Completely unacceptable, to say the least, on a $250 multimeter.The $45 UT61E is light years ahead in battery case design. (unfortunately this stops there...)

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 02:26:52 pm
content: As a side note, does anybody know if the VFD function of the BM869Sis similar with the LPF hidden mode of the UT61E ?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 02:30:47 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on May 05, 2016, 02:25:21 pmOlder versions of Fluke 87 are exactly like this.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 02:32:14 pm
content: QuoteExactly...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 02:36:11 pm
content: Or Fluke 77 IV

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 02:38:36 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on May 05, 2016, 02:32:14 pmAnd othercurrently soldmodels which are more expensive than $250.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 02:45:50 pm
content: It does not instill confidence.At least Fluke went to the effort to use a socket and I am sure that their version of the 9V clipwill be of good quality.From the photos it looks like that the Brymen 9V clip is the usual thin version that can be easilydamaged when you remove it from the battery.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 02:51:57 pm
content: At least it is using 9V battery and nothing of that AA or AAA rubbish.9V batteries are less prone to leak over AA/AAA batteries.In fact AA batteries leak all the time. Even Duracell are prone to leaking.Ridiculous actually that battery manufacturers haven't done anything in the past 30 yearsto make their batteries less prone to leaking.Right now I only buy Lithium batteries. And I will definitely not buy any IKEA batteries anymore.In a fresh pack of IKEA batteries, there were already 2 batteries out of 10 that started leaking,while still in the carton box, and never used. Unbelievable! IKEA batteries crap!But even with Duracell you can have this. And typically it happens a lot with AA and AAA batteries.With 9V batteries the chance of leaking is much less. At least my experience.And to be 100% safe, just go for 9V Lithium batteries from VARTA. They have a shelf life of 10 years.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 02:58:54 pm
content: Indeed, having an instrument damaged just from a leaked battery is not the best.>>And to be 100% safe, just go for 9V Lithium batteries from VARTA. They have a shelf life of 10 years.Nice to know! They will be my next 9V batteries.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 03:06:09 pm
content: The other thing that bothers me is that on a $250 multimeter they have implementedthe HOLD functionality of the usual $5 one...How difficult would have beento implement a proper HOLD button?Even the UT61E has a very nice HOLD function when you long press it.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 03:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on May 05, 2016, 02:58:54 pmI got to order order new back cover for my Agilent U1272A. F...ing batteries.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 03:21:52 pm
content: 9V batteries leak, too.That battery had been in there for 13 years, though ...But the advantage is, the 9V clip is easily replaced. The compartment is separate, so nothing can leak on the PCB. Snip the wires and solder in a new one. With a meter with AA contacts on the PCB, the stuff would have very likely leaked all over the main PCB and the meter would have been destroyed. At the very least, the battery contacts would have been gone and it would have been very difficult to find replacements. Unlike 9V battery clips, which you can find in an electronics store in downtown Kinshasa.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 03:23:39 pm
content: QuoteThat's a good point.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 05:15:18 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on May 05, 2016, 01:02:19 pmThe Brymen website has not been updated to reflect the new meter standards. The BM867S has the same 1kV fuses as the BM869S.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 05:18:21 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on May 05, 2016, 02:26:52 pmThe VFD in the Brymen meters is basically a LPF function, yes.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 05:26:15 pm
content: >>The BM867S has the same 1kV fuses as the BM869S.Nice to know.Now the price of the BM867 becomes more attractive...>>The VFD in the Brymen meters is basically a LPF function, yes.Not bad for a $45 meter then. I am planning to do that mod together with some others.I was searching for the VFD function and in the Brymen BM869 manual indeed says that:"High noise-rejection frequency measurement algorithm and Low-pass filter circuitare permanently bundled with all the voltage and frequency function-ranges withinthis rotary-switch position."

author: pxl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 05:42:11 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on May 05, 2016, 05:26:15 pmYes, but it misses the temp. measurement and the accuracy is bit worse. Probably they sell the out of specs 869s as 867s. Nothing wrong with that, they specified and sell cheaper. It is perfectly ok, just need to be aware of that.EDIT: but there is a high chance that the specs won't be worse, because they produce as many 867 as needed, not as many were out of specs. Probably these meters are different (I don't really know), but they just use similar parts and preselected before producing. The good ones go to the 869 the not that good ones to the 867.This is just my theory, of course.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 06:50:32 pm
content: Quote from: pxl on May 05, 2016, 05:42:11 pmFWIW, the 867 uses a laser cut precision resistor network, while the 869 adds a shielded area with an adjustable pot/s. The older BM85x series was the same way, and was the basis for the newer BM86x series.BM867 photos.BM869 photos(8 total; can be downloaded as a .zip)

author: pxl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 07:41:05 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on May 05, 2016, 06:50:32 pmGood to know, thanks! (Anyway, it was a nice theory from me)

author: Valden
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2017, 08:57:32 am
content: Hello all.I'm new to posting here, after lurking for a while. I'm based in Australia and am chiming in with what I've found (in May 2017) on prices for the Brymen BM869S and the Fluke 289, being the two multimeters I've focussed on to replace the POS I've been using for too long. :-)The lowest priced source I've found for a Brymen BM869S and data link cable/software, shipped to Australia, is eleshop.euhttps://eleshop.euin The Netherlands. The data link interface was not showing on the English language version of their site, but here is a link to it in the Dutch part of the site.https://eleshop.eu/brymen-kitbu-86x-usb-connection-kit.html. Total price for the meter and datalink is EU$254.01 (including shipping which is EU$40). This is AUD$380, subject to variation.The next lowest price was from TME in Poland. The BM869S and the KITBU-86S datalink kit are easy to find on their site. Total price - EU$268.76 (including EU$19.90 shipping). Or ~ AUD$402.Re the Fluke 289, the story there is not so good. Tequipment in the US is a good source, if you live in the US!After spending much time working with their excellent website I learned via a chat session that they can't/won't export to Australia (no news there for many on this forum it seems). The best price I found on their site, for logged in members, was USD$519, or AUD$696. This is for the meter only. The Fluke View Forms software and optical link to USB cable, and/or their IR3000FC Fluke Connect wireless interface are extra, best ordered in a kit with the meter.The best price for a Fluke 289 from an Australian supplier (element14, formerly Farnell) was AUD$1253.70. That's for the multimeter only. Any POS calculator will show that this is close to double what folk in the US pay. Why?In line with the topic of this thread, after much consideration my preference tipped in favour of the Fluke 289. I like the onboard data logging and display and the ability to beam it to my iPhone/iPad, via the modular IR3000FC interface, to then share the data with others, easily. I haven't ordered either yet, but chances are I'll end up with both, to use each for its strengths.So, buying a Brymen BM869S is easy, but how do I buy a Fluke 289 (with FVF and IR3000FC and some sort of Flukey accessory cables/clips kit) without feeling like I've been treated as a second class citizen of the world? That is, ripped off!Regards, Valden.p.s. Brymen have just updated their website. It looks much more professional now. Good on 'em.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2017, 10:28:54 am
content: Don't lose hope mate, a 289 or two pop up on Ebay straya occasionally, from $550 to $750 in good nick to brand newThe 289 has it's issues, but nothing life threatening. Make sure you have a warranty on it.The Brymen may look good and can apparently survive some extreme carpet surfing, but who is going to fix it here in oz if it goes belly up?And yes, aussies do get shafted on prices here, treated no better than shirtless, dumped, framed convicts with no choice in the matter.Anyone holidaying from Mars or Uranus would quickly conclude that some sellers must think every potential Fluke buyer is a clueless overpaid showoff tradieI sometimes see their point...

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 31, 2017, 10:34:15 am
content: Generally speaking, each individuals requirements in relation to their tools and equipment will vary according to their particular field and the manner in which they work, like many here I own quite a number of handheld multimeters in a variety of brands, models, features and specifications, some of which are used more frequently than others and for me the Keysights are a prime example in this regard.As you have already established some brands are not readily available down here at reasonable or comparable prices, others will not be covered by warranty if imported or would cost a packet to send them back, out of the two you have mentioned the Brymen would be my choice unless you have a specific need, otherwise if you can hold out for a bit longer rumour has it that Dave's new super meter is getting closer to release, I don't have any details on the final specifications.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2017, 11:30:49 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on May 31, 2017, 10:28:54 amIf it's half the price then how important is that? You can simply buy another one. The chances of two of them failing is quite slim.And as noted, the Fluke guarantee doesn't necessarily cover shipping, etc. Fixing a Fluke can cost money, too.

author: nour
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2017, 10:07:05 am
content: When I was searching to buy my very first professional handheld meter, I was thinking everyone has the 87v so should I!Why not, everyone is talking about it, everyone always shows up on youtube with it even some people have a selfie with it, but someone told me about the 869s and when I compared the features and the resolution with the 87V, it took me a couple of minutes to decide and buy the 869s.Now, I am really grateful that I have bought the 869 instead of the 87VFor electronics hobbyists and professionals, definitely, the 869s is the one to go(compared to the 87V)Would I buy it again, Absolutely yes

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2017, 10:31:17 am
content: But can the Brymen get you unauthorised instant access to any job site like a Fluke can just by waving it aroundand enjoy free crew food, dessert, coffee, tea, a couple of rolls of toilet paper,chat up some not so butch females, and maybe score a tank full of car fuel too?The 869 may handle extreme carpet surfing and wow the user with some eye candy, but I'm sticking with my yellow sugar mommy meters for now

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2017, 10:56:08 am
content: HonestlyI had a Mastech 22000 count dmm who was great, no need to open the case for changing the fuses, changed for a Brymen 857S for more display resolution, and finally set up for 2x Gossen MetraHit 28S dmm, i use at my job Fluke 83 and 87 first series, not the III and V series.I had problems with the rotary knob residues on pcb ... stranges beeps, power on/off problems, now it's ok nce cleaned correctly.My partner use an 87 V model, i hate it a lot, now it is set in AC by default erk ...Every one has it's taste or needs, just check and read feedbacks, reviews, teardowns, etc... before buying no need to start wars or criticize others lollMy first meter was an Beckman Industrial model, ip65 at the time was a top notch option/feature, if you use a meter within it's specs and with respect of it's capacities and functionality it will last ... 15 years with original fuses for my first dmmSure you have dielectric tests, drop tests, etc ... as i said, i dont need a meter that i can roll over it with my truck loll, but it helps choosing the right model for my day to day use.Finally it depends on how much money you want to invest as a beginner or a professional tech / user / repair man ... or availability in certain countries. I had to have some help to find my Gossen in Germany, the shipping was desastrous in one case.The dmm accessories Ir / usb / serial / bluetooth interfaces for Fluke Gossen Brymen ... should be automatically included with puchasing, or be at really cheap price, that's my big complaint.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2017, 11:00:34 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on June 01, 2017, 10:31:17 amC'mon, you're exaggerating.You need a Fluke plus at least a hard-hat and high-vis to score the fuel.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2017, 05:20:28 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 01, 2017, 11:00:34 amoops, forgot about that, thanks for the heads up

author: P90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2017, 06:13:05 am
content: one nice thing about Fluke meters is that they don't seem to drift out of calibration much...I've got 20 year old Flukes that are within a couple milivolts of each other and a couple precision voltage references...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2017, 07:15:31 am
content: Quote from: P90 on June 02, 2017, 06:13:05 amThat's not really a Fluke thing. A lot of meters will do that, even really cheap ones.The whole "calibration" thing is mostly just paying money for a document that covers your ass if you're sued over something.

author: P90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2017, 07:19:06 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 02, 2017, 07:15:31 amyeah most decent quality meters with higher spec'd components shouldn't drift much. I don't really own any real cheap bottom of barrel meters, so nit sure how well they hold up...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2017, 08:23:17 am
content: Quote from: P90 on June 02, 2017, 07:19:06 amYou might be surprised.I think it depends on usage. The parts that "drift" will actually be the mechanics - the range selector switch, etc.

author: Valden
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2017, 09:16:41 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 02, 2017, 08:23:17 amBingo. It's exactly this dodgy range selector switch problem that has me in the market for a new (and good this time) meter.Re my post above, where I grizzled about the huge price difference between US suppliers and those here in Australia, well, my request for an explanation has attracted a reply from one source in Oz, with an assurance that they'll be able to work out a better price. I'm still to see the outcome. I did say they're really going to have to work hard and was assured they would. Interesting. Fingers crossed. If it's a positive ending I'll ask if they want me to publicise that here.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2017, 09:33:20 am
content: Quote from: Valden on June 02, 2017, 09:16:41 amI believe Fluke et. al. put special grease on the PCB to prevent oxidation/wear of the tracks.(I don't know how expensive it is or why it doesn't rub off.)My Fluke 27 has a proper range selector in it, none of this PCB track rubbish:

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2017, 09:49:15 am
content: "PCB track rubbish" is fine for impoverished techs, EEs, and newbsas long as you open the sucker once in a while to check the condition,and maybe swap out the batteries too(Nice Fluke 27 internals btw)

author: Valden
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2017, 01:59:30 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 02, 2017, 09:33:20 amIn other words, 'That's not a range selector.Thisis a range selector!'Impressive!

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2017, 02:35:44 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on June 02, 2017, 09:49:15 amSo absolutely every currently produced meter, including FLUKE, Keysight, Gossen....all of them are cheap crap to you... LOL...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2017, 06:18:24 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on June 02, 2017, 02:35:44 pmNot even Fluke builds 'em like they used to.http://www.fluke.com/fluke/inen/digital-multimeters/fluke-27.htm?pid=56055Quote"Simulated lightning"

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2017, 12:00:15 am
content: "features include extensive overload protection, high energy fuses, fused 10A range, and non-metallic cases and tilt bail. All voltage inputs recover or fail safe under power line surge tests for major feeders. This includes simulated lightning and load switching transient pulses up to 8 kV."yes yes, that's all good and may convincethe buying department to order 600 of them sight unseenBut will a Fluke 27 meet it's specs at the Joe Smith Proof Lab?Skeptical frugal techs would appreciate seeing it deliver the goods in an independent testing environment,before they hand over their bag of saved coins and birthday/Christmas cash to buy one.No one needs a big dollar meter that flakes out after some extreme carpet surfing, before going out into a lightning storm to check the RV truck battery

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2017, 02:58:37 pm
content: Quote from: fungusIt would be a good one to test, but ... that's up to joe.He can be a bit ornery.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 12:31:25 am
content: If the electrical survival specs are similar to an 87V,and no immediate plan on going swimming with the 87Vor dropping it from 6 meters on to concrete inside an expl0sive environment,then there is no point in buying a 27, 28-11or sillycone stuffed EX series (the recalled mega dollar Uni-T lookalikes, lol)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 09:28:30 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on June 04, 2017, 12:31:25 amThe key is in the weasel words:"All voltage inputs recover or fail safe"The Fluke 87 chose to 'fail safe' in Joe's tests, ie. it broke. It'snotamong the top meters in his tests despite the high CAT rating printed on the front.(which doesn't make it less safe than the others, just maybe not as robust)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 10:38:43 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on June 04, 2017, 12:31:25 amWas the 87V ex recalled?? I thought it was just discontinued.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 10:45:48 am
content: Quote from: tooki on June 04, 2017, 10:38:43 amNo recalls on the 87Vhttp://en-us.fluke.com/customer-service/safety-notices/?tab=archive

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 12:49:09 pm
content: He probably meant 28 II Ex..

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2017, 01:14:15 am
content: Yes, it's theFluke 28-11 EXon the recall listIf you, or rich showoff boss has onecheck if it's listed in the knackered batchserial number range 20960000 to 22489999, and send the Flukker back and get a new onewww.productsafety.gov.au/recall/fluke-corporation-fluke-28iiexHow can a meter filled with 87V parts and slimed with Green Lantern goo crack so easy?Are many RED meters doomed to be cheap or bad luck(like street hookers)regardless of brand or re-badge ?You may as well check out the other recall duds too, in case you have one wasting space in your test gear stash,waiting to bite you one day:www.productsafety.gov.au/site-search/flukeThankfully I don't own any red meters to check on that recall site, and can prod around freelywithout the meter being the prime suspect on a blowout

author: IslamIslame
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 14, 2017, 01:11:01 am
content: Almost 30 year old Fluke 87s in good shape routinely go for around $150 US! How much is a "good" used Brymen worth? Fluke's are for people who need a meter, Brymen's are for people who want a meter! Nuff said

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2017, 02:12:32 am
content: Quote from: IslamIslame on October 14, 2017, 01:11:01 amThey're not common in the US, as they don't sell under their own name (seen them rebranded under both Greenlee and Extech though, with a nice mark-up of course).That said however, I found a BM857 on eBay in the US that they're asking $220 OBO (here). The asking price is out of whack though, as you can get a new one from TME for ~$157 + shipping (~$20).As it happens, I've a Brymen BM857a that's 17yrs old (listing is NOT mine as I'm keeping it). And it's fully functional and well within spec.For disclosure regarding brand loyalty, I own:Fluke 27FM (forgetting to fix the ACV function as it's easier to grab a different meter)GW Instek GDM 8251AAgilent U1252BUni-T UT139CCenTech DT830 (Harbor Freight freebies; make great panel meters or as a road kit DMM)Edit: For disclosure, I got mine as NOS off of eBay for ~$78 shipped a few years ago or so.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2017, 04:09:48 am
content: Quote from: IslamIslame on October 14, 2017, 01:11:01 amFanboi hyperbole....

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2017, 06:11:56 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on October 14, 2017, 04:09:48 amI suspect so, but whatever.I'll do the best I can to explain matters IME; it's up to the reader to determine if it's relevant to them or not (along with other posts).BTW, PM sent as it isn't relevant to the thread IMHO.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2017, 03:48:46 pm
content: Quote from: IslamIslame on October 14, 2017, 01:11:01 amA 2-post wonder. Troll. Nuff said

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 02:33:39 pm
content: Quote from: Tom45 on May 26, 2015, 04:10:33 pmIf you make lifetime warranty claim they won't honor it. It's more than 7 years out of production. Besides they don't even warranty a Fluke 287 with a broken metal clip in the battery compartment.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2021, 12:27:03 pm
content: To answer the tittle question I found the reason is that I can't buy the Brymen meter. Brymen simply don't sell in the United States.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2021, 12:44:04 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 08, 2021, 12:27:03 pmBrymen are sold under the Greenlee brand in the US, afaik

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2021, 01:01:28 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 08, 2021, 12:27:03 pmAs nanofrog mentioned above, Brymen's OEMs in US are Greenlee and Extech, but you can buy one athttps://www.tme.euorhttps://www.welectron.com

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2021, 02:48:21 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on May 08, 2021, 12:44:04 pmYes, but they're much more expensive and they don't have all the models.Plus they're a horrible green color.(IMHO... there's obviously at leastoneperson out there who liked that color)

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2021, 02:52:35 pm
content: Looking at the price of the Greenlee and while for $440 is still over $100 less than the Fluke 289 and you can say the BM869s has more functionality than the Fluke but I must say I have to choose the Fluke in this situation.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2021, 01:56:17 pm
content: Many of us in Canada/US have purchased Brymen branded (red) from tme.eu without a problem. They ship in as little as 3 days by DHL.

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2021, 02:23:33 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 08, 2021, 02:52:35 pm"Fluke 289 and you can say the BM869s has more functionality than the Fluke" - Please, could you explain what are these extra functions? Thanks

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2021, 03:05:02 pm
content: Not a whole lot so that I said "You can say" but there is at least a few things I can count.1. The 500,000 count display instead of 50,000 only on the Fluke.2. Display the current of 4-20mA in %. At work this is about the only use I have for the current measurement function besides using it as a jumper like I ?said in previous post. Having the current loop displayed in % is useful.3. Capable of 2 thermocouple inputs (although I don't even use this feature on the Fluke I have separate for that).5. The Brymen is rated at CAT IV 1000V instead of CAT IV 600V of the FlukeThere are some features you can say the Brymen is more. As I said I would still pick the Fluke. Some said there is no problem ordering from TME but what if it has problem? Do they honor the warranty? And it may be OK to buy for my own use but for work it would be difficult to get an account with TME while we have account with several vendors that sell Fluke. If I buy a Brymen for work and it doesn't work I am likely to get yelled at.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2021, 04:43:19 pm
content: Quote from: Trader on May 09, 2021, 02:23:33 pmThe Brymen has some functions that the Fluke doesn't but overall the 289 haswaymore functionality, eg. It has a graphical display and can draw graphs.(It also takes time to "boot up" and it chews through batteries like there's no tomorrow)

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 12:36:58 pm
content: If you like the Fluke 289, are looking for something low cost and don't need a robust meter, you may want to look at the UNI-T UT181A.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 12:47:19 pm
content: I don't know but it's rated IP65 which is supposed to be more rugged than the Fluke. However, I don't know about the battery life on that thing. Perhaps if I use it I would have to charge it just before every use.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 05:13:29 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 10, 2021, 12:47:19 pmI have collected some data on battery life. The 181A is one of the worse I have looked at.https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cXzYpIoyVm9QJUju4KXqM22CEQZP3_xwWvDyeVwxTy4/edit#gid=656210876I think the worse one I have is the Fluke 97A which will drain a set of four NiMH C cells in about 8 hours.I don't get too concerned with moisture testing. Most of what I want to know if the meter will survive low level voltage transients on the inputs. More recently, I started looking at the selector switches life time. As many UNI-T products I have looked at, I have never life tested one of their switches.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 05:30:59 pm
content: Oh you talked about the 97a which is a scope then the 8 hrs isn't bad. My 196c the battery (new) won't last 2 hrs. If I put it away in a week or so the battery is dead.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 11:14:02 pm
content: Is that normal, or is there something wrong with it?

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 01:03:12 am
content: I am not really sure! I inherit the scope. Didn't have it since new. I bought new battery for it but the battery life is always very short.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 01:37:51 am
content: Don't you think its a bit odd it would only hold a charge for a week, turned off? You could start a thread and see if anyone has experience with it. You may get some idea what battery life you should expect.My 97 has been off a few months now and fires right up. I would expect yours would be a big improvement.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 10:56:01 am
content: Yesterday I bumped into this "Fluke Rant" from Kiss Analog.Short story: He has been buying Fluke all his life (He's got 10+ of them) and he just never considered any other brand.It's just that after he started his youtube channel and bought some other meters for reviews that he discovered that they also make good meters.I have been seeing a lot of reviews of Brymen meters lately, and I'm very impressed with the fast autoranging, all those digits, very clear displays, the well thought out functions (such as remembering whether you prefer AC or DC for volts) Low Z and lots of others.I've also been looking at availability and pricing in a local shop and their "top 10" multimeters:https://www.eleshop.nl/testen-meten/multimeters/top-10-multimeters.htmlIt's got 3 Brymen meters and also 3 fluke meters.The three Brymen meters have 12 + 16 + 14 = 48 reviews, and the fluke meters have 2 + 2 + 1 = 5 reviews total.And that while they have been selling Fluke for much longer then Brymen (They started with Brymen 7 or so years ago.)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 02:06:11 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on May 11, 2021, 10:56:01 amThere's still plenty of people here who don't believe anybody other than Fluke knows how to make good meters.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 03:31:29 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on May 11, 2021, 10:56:01 amI have seen this rant before and found somewhat shallow. Despite I agree with the overall premise that Fluke's bang per buck has been quite unfavourable in the light of newer offers, his fixation on the somewhat secondary aspects such as the tilting bale, as well as the probes and IP ratings could have been summarized in 5 minutes.One additional aspect that he just talks without any valid data is his rant about are the yahoos that electrically stress the meters (a jab at joeqsmith perhaps?). Sure, if one is concerned about using a meter on CAT III or IV, they would be much more concerned about this test than any other but that wouldn't probably be a decision made through a Youtube video. However, what he misses is the occasional user that blows his/her meter simply because it was in the wrong range - and believe me, a LOT of people do this. As for myself, I have been doing these tests with a very low power source (just higher voltage at a few mA) and some of them go absolutely haywire.Quote from: Fungus on May 11, 2021, 02:06:11 pmIndeed. Although some of the folks actually justify the expense due to the durability and/or past experiences. One can't deny Fluke's track record in this sense.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 03:35:13 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on May 11, 2021, 10:56:01 amI've watched a few of his videos. He had written me about safety and the testing I've performed. He seems like a nice guy.For this particular video, notice how he has bought several used meters. Some are fairly old like the 189 for example. Some, more than 20 years old. These have stood the test of time. What's missing are his collection of used old cheap meters.It requires little education to make a channel and voice your opinion about what you feel are good meters. Watch a few reviews where PTCs are identified as being MOVs, op-amps as LCD controllers, and talking about safety while showing the motor start fuse from the local hardware store installed in your meter. You may find that many of these people are not educated in the area where they present themselves as experts. I believe this particular person is a cut above most of them.While he mentions safety many times throughout the video, we don't hear him talk about how robust they are. Will the switches on these low cost meters that he claims are just as good, hold up over time? Will they survive any sort of low energy high voltage transient without going to the landfill? Don't just talk about it, show it.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 03:41:45 pm
content: Joe, I have the impression of a déja-vu on both our arguments about this video and channel... Perhaps earlier in this thread or somewhere else in the EEVblogosphere.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 04:27:38 pm
content: That's very possible.When he starts talking about the bone heads and the amount of energy they test at not being real world, I am not sure he actually understood the levels I ran them at. While I can demonstrate what 20 Joules looks like when discharging some caps to a metal plate, it doesn't always register.https://youtu.be/3YW0aaED9aQ?t=442I suspect many of the expert reviewers don't have the ability to do any level of testing beyond hooking them to a resistor and power supply. Still, if the goal is to get enough support to earn a living off a channel, you need to look at everything from how to maximize your income. You want to make your audience feel good about their purchases. That's never been a goal for this bonehead and I'm perfectly fine with that.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 09:29:26 pm
content: At no point did I have the impression that he had you in mind when talking about boneheads.There are quite a lot of idiots who dismantle microwave ovens and tape the tube to a broomstick and start irradiating electronics and their neighbors alike, or who put 12V on Li-Ion battery cells just to see them smoke, or who build tesla coils just to see a DMM fly off their bench.The inductive coin shrinkers are quite impressive though.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 11:16:55 pm
content: Hard to say as he leaves it open. I think he said he worked in a test lab. Seeing rack mounted large surge generators like Fluke shows in their videos shouldn't be any surprise for him.****I just watched his background video. He talks about his time in a test lab. I stand by my comment of him being a cut above the typical reviewers.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 05:44:50 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 11, 2021, 02:06:11 pmTo be fair, there is nothing wrong with staying with a trusted brand that has proven itself to you over many decades.Why spend any time and effort trying to evaluate alternatives if you don't have to? And many people and companies simply don't have to, because they don't care about price point.

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 06:32:02 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on May 11, 2021, 11:16:55 pmHe is a cut above some reviewers, but he do not see a reason for a fast continuity and guesses that a shield over some chips (not relays) may be mu-metal.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 07:44:00 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 12, 2021, 05:44:50 amSure. If you aren't price sensitive and don't want to think, then... Fluke is good enough.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 09:43:00 am
content: Is the Brymen 869s made in Taiwan?

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 09:55:58 am
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 12, 2021, 09:43:00 amIt says so on the back of mine, you can sort of see it on a photo here:https://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMBrymen%20BM869s%20UK.html

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 10:32:23 am
content: Quote from: HKJ on May 12, 2021, 06:32:02 amSure, he's human and will not have all the answers and make mistakes. I've seen people here post a totally wrong formula for AC+DC.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 11:14:55 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 09, 2021, 04:43:19 pm

author: YetAnotherTechie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 11:57:37 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 12, 2021, 05:44:50 amBecause "Duracells" happen....

author: Analog4
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 10:35:31 pm
content: Brymen does not have warranty support in the USA, but one can buy a Greenlee DM-860A for about $314 USD with a warranty.https://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=DM-860AInstead I sold my old Fluke 70 on eBay and bought a Brymen BM789 for $216.00 (with shipping & case) from Germany.So I am rolling the dice, that I don't need a warranty.

author: normi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 11:44:50 pm
content: If you are buying for your company it is much easier to purchase a well established brand as you don't have to keep explaining why you chose the less known brand.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2021, 03:38:00 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 12, 2021, 07:44:00 amIt's not a matter of justthinkingand lookign at feature brochues, building up trust and confience in a bit of test gear can take substantial time, and that matters to a lot of people.It may not matter to you, and that's fine, but I wouldn't dismiss anyone who wants to to stick with the same brand because ofdecadesof confidence in it.Speak to anyone in metrology when it comes to test gear and they will talk your ear off for hours on the subject.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2021, 03:39:07 am
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 12, 2021, 09:43:00 amAll Brymens are made in Taiwan that I know of. They are a Taiwanese company.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2021, 03:40:50 am
content: Quote from: YetAnotherTechie on May 12, 2021, 11:57:37 amI don't get the point?Ok, you batteries leak and destroy you meter and you have to buy a new one. What's what got to do with the argument whether you stick with a brand you have trusted for decades, or you switch to another one?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2021, 04:03:00 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 13, 2021, 03:40:50 amYou missed it.People have trusted Duracell for years. Nowadays, they leak and destroy equipment*. People have trusted Fluke for years - will they mess up and start selling garbage? The answer is of course, maybe, so keep an open mind and be aware of your options. Nothing wrong with remaining 'loyal' to a trusted brand, but ignorance of the market is nothing to be proud of.* At least, that's how people see it. To be fair, I've had a lot of leaky Duracells too, and I don't see that they're worth the money over anything else, but I'm not convinced they're the leakiest batteries known to man..

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2021, 07:27:17 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 13, 2021, 04:03:00 amAh, gotcha.Yes, sticking with a trusted brand is no absolute guarantee of not getting lemon in the future,but it's a safe way to bet.Not just betting with your money but also your time and possible reputation and income and other things in extreme cases.Betting on a new brand is a gamble. Sure you can mitigate that risk by testing it and evaluating it, but that takes time and money.I've have more than one example from industry where cheap meters failing has costway morethan buying that time proven Fluke 87 meter to begin with.To be fair, I also have experience with the infamous Fluke 19 meter, of which every single one of them failed in a production environment. Try and buy a working one today rare as hens teeth.In that case, although we stuck with the same brand, we bought a whole bunch of Fluke 19's because they were cazy cheap at the time (Fluke's first made in China meter, and it was an experiment for the asian pacific market) compared with the tried and proven Fluke 70 series the company had used for decades.So even within the same company, switching models of meters was enough for us to come-a-gutsa. And people wonder why the Fluke 70 and 80 series still sells 30+ years later and Fluke doesn't want to change it.It's like the BM235 for example. Back when I first offered it, Brymen was still pretty new to people and they were skeptical. And maybe rightly so, it went through several software and hardware revisions and issues over the years as I've documented.But now half a decade later it's starting to be considered by many to be a reliable workhorse. Want to trust the new model BM786 over the BM235? It's technically a bit of gamble even though it's the same company, same plant that makes it and same design team, and they have improved, but it's still a bit of a gamble because it's not proven over time.QuoteSome might say that spending time and effort to constantly re-evaluate the market to find the current best value meter is nothing to be proud of either. Just keep buying what works and spend your efforts on more important things.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2021, 08:51:23 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 13, 2021, 04:03:00 amFluke isn't involved in a race to the bottom like batteries were/are.There's signs that the "lifetime warranty" isn't what it used to be, they might close regional offices to save costs, but they'd have to have some unbelievably stupid management to mess up the meters. The design is done and the profit margin is big. All they have to do is not touch anything.Fluke problem is that they can't evolve any more. They'll still be making the exact same 87V 100 years from now.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2021, 10:59:54 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 13, 2021, 03:39:07 amThat is a good thing. I don't like products from companies that makes them outside their country.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2021, 11:01:59 am
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 13, 2021, 10:59:54 amFluke make an entire range of meters in China.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2021, 11:09:13 am
content: They also made them in Singapore too and I avoid buying those.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2021, 05:09:32 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 13, 2021, 11:09:13 amThen you should avoid all the Fluke equipments for example.Made in the US as they were before they are no more. Assembled in the US with US parts and non US Parts should be the right nomenclature.ADI is a US company in California, factories in Malaysia and US (LT1116 is a Ground-Sensing Comparator from ADI used in the 87V);Vishay is an US company, factories in Israel, US, Germany and Mexico (Dale WRS-2 Power Metal Strip Resistors from Vishay is used in the 87V).That just to mention 2 of them. In this connected world, trying to keep nationalisms is a lost of time. Products and brands should be judged by their quality, not from where they were manufactured.I always had contact with Fluke during education and in my first job, where all the measurement equipments were from Fluke/Phillips, and that made me choose the Fluke 289 FVF Kit as my first Fluke acquisition at full price back in 2007.Independent if it was a good buy or not or if there was at the time better equipments in the market with the same functionalities for less, I made the choice because of my background and the confidence I had in the brand and what I needed at the time. After that bought used both the Fluke 54II in 2008 and a Fluke 87V in 2019 as my last acquisition.I had problems both with the 289 (supercap draining the batteries in less than 2 weeks) and the 54II (temperature probe socket solder cracked from the PCB) and they repaired without any questions asked (specially the 54II that were outside of warranty already for about 2 years). That is what I call a great support after sales and a way to keep a customer, specially when they didn't had to repair for free some equipment that I wasn't the first owner and were outside of warranty.Although I recommended to close friends looking for specific DMMs, models from UNI-T and last one was a Brymen. Why because I see them as excellent alternatives (depending of the kind of use) from a Fluke. I would probably in a near future buy a EEVBlog Brymen directly from Dave not because I need but because I believe in what the brand achieved and to support Dave himself.I couldn't care less if Brymen, Fluke, Uni-T, Keysight, etc is made in China, Taiwan, Israel, US, EU, etc. I choose an equipment by the following:First a big emphasis in Safety;Second functions that I need;Third price I'm willing to pay.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2021, 05:42:15 pm
content: And Fluke doesn't fix the broken metal clip in the battery compartment of the Fluke 287. I am very disappointed about this.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2021, 05:55:51 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 13, 2021, 05:42:15 pmI make extensive use of my battery cover from the Fluke 289 since I remove always the batteries from the compartment after use (Even Eneloops and the time function for me is away of a quick sync with the PC) and I didn't had any problem with the metal clip. And I'm sure I open and closed the battery door 100+ times since I got it. Good as new. I really fail to see how that clip can break other than yanking out incorrectly the battery compartment or forcing it wrongly when putting all together.First goes the top close to the strap loop in a 45oangle and then the bottom slides in. Opposite way is reversing the steps - Bottom slides out until the 45oangle and everything slides out to the bottom of the DMM.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2021, 06:49:17 pm
content: I don't know how he broke it either. First time he broke it I sent it to Fluke and they replaced the battery holder for free. Second time they told me such a damage isn't covered. I have my 289 for like 3 years already but since I don't use it often I changed the battery only once. My coworker he uses it daily so he changed the batteries very often.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2021, 10:03:33 pm
content: Duracell used to be a famous brand in 1990s I think. I remember them.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2021, 04:42:47 am
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 13, 2021, 06:49:17 pm"Lifetime" warranty is only against factory defects, not against people breaking them. No manufacturer could possibly give free lifetime repairs/replacements on everything they sell.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2021, 09:50:25 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 14, 2021, 04:42:47 amIndeed. They probably store the serial number and check if the same repair was done once on the same meter.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2021, 11:29:33 pm
content: Fluke might have an easier calibration than Brymen.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2021, 12:09:28 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on May 15, 2021, 11:29:33 pmI don't know about the Brymen but for the Fluke 289 calibration is almost automatic with the right equipment but you do need the right equipment.

author: rfclown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2021, 03:14:56 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 13, 2021, 07:27:17 amFor the industrial workplace, there is generally very little time/resource given to evalute the market. It's, "we need to buy a meter", and it has to work and has to be reliable for many years. You buy what you know works. There is no time to put up with crap. Something like Brymen might be great, but Fluke has proven itself to be reliable. Exceptions always occur, and Fluke could lose their way someday, but for now, it is still a safe bet. I work at a company that has too few instruments per engineer; so several of us bring in some of our own equipment to avoid frustration. I happen to have a ANENG AN8008 of mine at work. But if I ever question a measurement, or if I'm doing something for which the measurement is really important, I get one of the few Flukes that the company owns. I don't question them. My Fluke is in my home lab.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 17, 2021, 05:03:39 am
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 16, 2021, 12:09:28 amThe Fluke 87 uses the piezo transducer to communicate with the calibration gear. It's not documented because the info is only available to cal labs.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 17, 2021, 05:08:05 am
content: Quote from: rfclown on May 17, 2021, 03:14:56 amAlso, and this might be hard to hear, probably the majority of engineers in industry are not enthusiats. They don't trawl forums for fun discussing test gear, watch test gear reviews, get excited about some new meter etc. Their Fluke broke or they need another one, so what do they buy, Fluke of course.And why was the Fluke in the company to begin with? Because Fluke have been the industry leader in the digital meter field for longer than many engineers have been alive.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2021, 10:08:24 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 17, 2021, 05:08:05 amThat's also a key reason why people still buy Tek scopes, living off their reputation from the CRO era.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2021, 01:12:31 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on May 21, 2021, 10:08:24 amIt kinda makes me remember that say - "'No one ever got fired for buying IBM"!.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2021, 02:28:47 pm
content: I don't know. Recently I do a bit a research on DMM and if I don't buy a Fluke (as they may be resting on their laurels) I would consider Hioki, Yokogawa, Gossen and even Keysight before Brymen.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2021, 02:29:46 pm
content: Funny to realize that my thread is exactly 6 years old now today, and that the discussions about Brymen and Fluke are still as fresh as the day I posted my thread!Keep the debate going here!

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2021, 03:28:48 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 24, 2021, 02:28:47 pmI have all of them and a couple more and I would not prioritize them that way, but then the prioritizing depends very much on what I want the meter for.

author: pjwum
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2021, 04:23:27 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 13, 2021, 07:27:17 amOne of the best arguments so far.An increased range of options does not necessarily lead to higher satisfaction with the outcome of a decision. If anything, choice may in fact impede our ability to enjoy and appreciate what we have.Constantly searching for the market's best option, even if you already have a decent tool, means you are a maximizer. Maximizers are prone to experiencing a sense of 'buyer's remorse' following a decision, doubting whether it was correct, and envisaging how life would have been had they made a different choice. Whether it's multimeters or the purchase of a chocolate bar, maximizers are prone to the fear that a better choice was, or is, available.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2021, 05:31:34 pm
content: Quote from: pjwum on May 24, 2021, 04:23:27 pmYes, thank you for the two cent psych eval based on the most extreme assumption possible.Remaining aware of options on the market not branded 'Fluke' is not the same as searching for something better all day.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2021, 10:55:43 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 24, 2021, 02:28:47 pmAll very expensive brands, even more expensive than Fluke!What do they do that Brymens (or Flukes) don't?

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2021, 11:38:05 pm
content: Just by looking at them I don't like the Brymen.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 10:44:34 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 24, 2021, 10:55:43 pmTrack record. Apart from Keysight, these brands are tens of years ahead of Brymen.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 11:11:41 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on May 25, 2021, 10:44:34 amYeah, yeah, but that's not good reason for an EEVBLOG reader not to buy one.Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 24, 2021, 11:38:05 pmAs good as reason as any, I guess.I admit I don't really like the look of the curvy ones myself. I went for a square 'industrial' one when I got mine.(Not as ugly as the Keysights though)

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 11:17:00 am
content: And wayyyyy overpriced .... to my tasteI had an Brymen 859s, it was rock solid and fast, made a mistake to sell it, had a mastech 22000 count dmm (sorry cant recall the model) i loved it too, no need to completly dismantle the dmm to change the fuses.Now i have Gossen 28 and 29s, incredible meters, but 2 meas a sec, they are sloooow, costed me a fortune to get them and their accessories are way overpriced.Tried the bulky 289 at my job, damn this thing is huge on a desk, not impressed if you don't do logging, i always get the impression to start a computer.I have at my job the 83 series "I" and III, and 87 III series, tried a 87 serie V totally hated it, it start in ac, you have to switch it in dc ...Now i'm running 2x Fluke 189 and 1x Amprobe 140, i'm happy with them. Simply love the Fuses access for the 189.In the end there is always something you need and other things you wont need, 50,000 counts are practical or me, a 310,000 count dmm maybe overkill lollI calibrate a lot under 5 volts dc, i need resolution, not always the precision (big debate here loll)Now i think Fluke is overdue and over hypped, they "sits on their lauriers" (french term). Tons of low end models for nothing.Gave an Beckman Industrial HD160 to a friend, still working as new and rock solid after many many years. Loved the variable tone function, was very helpful to find intermittent problems, crackling potentiometers....My perfect meter would be a blend of all i had or have at the moment.

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 11:22:14 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on May 25, 2021, 10:44:34 amThey may have made multimeters for more years, that do not mean their meters are inherent better. Brymen meters have their strong sides, the other brands have theirs.Earlier in the tread somebody talked about using a lot of time to find the best meters, that is a very silly notation, there is no best meter. The mid range meters may be fairly similar between some brands, but in high-end meters each brand has their very obvious advantages and disadvantages. One example is the Fluke 289, it is a very competent meter, but I would not like it out in the field. It is slow to turn on and the display can be hard to read due to the low contrast. If you look on Keysight or Gossen, it would be a very good idea to give a new technician a manual if he has to do any advanced measurements with them.The Gossen has one obvious advantage over most other meters on the bench: You will very seldom blow the fuse, even if you make mistakes. Why? It only has a 10A fuse, no 0.4A fuse and in most cases a bench power supply can shut down before the fuse blows (It measured uA as well as any other meter).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 01:42:13 pm
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on May 25, 2021, 11:17:00 amYep? A meter that has to "boot up" just to do a simple measurement? It's not going to get used if there's anything else on the bench.Quote from: coromonadalix on May 25, 2021, 11:17:00 amI try not to blow the fuses.I'm a quick learner when they're $12 each.Quote from: coromonadalix on May 25, 2021, 11:17:00 amI think it's because people don'twantthem to change. The Fluke 87 IV was a big change and everybody complained so much they went backwards with the 87V.The 87 IV was renamed as the 187 and the 87V is the same as the 87 III with a few changes (eg. default to AC mode on current ranges)

author: ralphrmartin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 03:45:51 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on May 25, 2021, 10:44:34 amEngineers come and go at these companies, and sometimes a lot of the smart ideas leave with the engineer.Managers also come and go, and set different goals (perhaps financially rather than engineering oriented).I'm not suggesting it has happened to any of these companies, but its a well known way to make money - buy a respected brand, and start selling cheap junk under that name at the original prices, until people finally realise what's going on.So - is a name really worth anything? Evaluate the product, don't just rely on the name.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 05:36:43 pm
content: Quote from: HKJ on May 25, 2021, 11:22:14 am"Better" is a very relative term depending on the person using it, but this is not my point. The track record is entirely dependent on the number of years a brand or model is present on the market with one or more successful products. Brymen is building their reputation in handheld meters, but the other brands have been building their reputation not only for handhelds but instrumentation in general.Quote from: ralphrmartin on May 25, 2021, 03:45:51 pmI agree with the two top statements, but the last one was debated many times around here. Features and specifications are one of the parameters to choose an equipment - other things usually come into play such as service, warranty, contracts, etc.

author: ralphrmartin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 06:39:11 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on May 25, 2021, 05:36:43 pmGood point. I should have said "Evaluate the complete package you are getting". But one thing to be wary of is promises. Buying stuff with promised improvements in later firmware releases, stuff with a lifetime guarantee (= until the company shuts up shop), and so on can end up badly too. Even here the company's track record can mislead, under new management.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 07:23:22 pm
content: Fluke has changed hands a couple of times, most recently in 2016.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluke_Corporation#HistoryIt's logical that management will have had changes during those transitions.Has anybody seen any changes to their 87Vs after 2016?

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 11:33:26 pm
content: Not really somebody stole my 87V recently.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 12:38:38 am
content: Quote from: ralphrmartin on May 27, 2021, 06:39:11 pmIndeed. In these times of severe consolidation, buyer beware.Quote from: Fungus on May 27, 2021, 07:23:22 pmI am not sure if you remember but there is a very long thread here where people talked about the minute changes in quality control of 87Vs. This is a thread that people hate when I bring it up due to the catfights in it (now, where was that link again?)(edit) Found it!https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-87v-(2017)-lacking-quality-control/

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 08:01:43 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on May 28, 2021, 12:38:38 amYeah, I remember one but I can't find it. There were meters that were no longer "Made in USA", some dodgy binding posts, worse probes, etc.Quote from: rsjsouza on May 28, 2021, 12:38:38 amThat wasn't it. That's only a single page and is mostly about a single defective meter.

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 10:48:44 am
content: Well personally, as someone who doesn't abuse their DMM, who will only use it on the bench (which is over a carpet on floorboards), and doesn't want to spend hundreds of pounds more to get essentially the same meter with a different brand on the front, I went with a Brymen 867s.I am very happy with it. I feel it is a good chunk of meter for the money.Regarding other meters, my view is this. Johnny Vegas is quoted recently as saying "So you love me? I can't put that in the bank". Similarly (and to torture a common saying), decades of company experience in a bucket, that doesn't change anything in the real world when you are using the meter, is worth a bucket. For me, that is the extra cost to making the meter rugged and a lifetime warranty. I still have every meter I ever bought, all in working order. I have my UT33B, ST-920, UT60A, and now my BM867s and the only reason I got that was because my youngest meter is well over a decade old and I found myself using my scope as a multimeter.If I wanted a meter to take on the road, to unknown parts, that I wanted to be able to get repaired for free when it inevitably succumbed to the damage it got every day, I would get one with a lifetime warranty because that would have value. I would also buy Snap-On tools which also have a lifetime warranty and cost a lot more than other tools if I was a mechanic, but any mechanic will tell you there are far better tools out there for much less money. The reason you see them in every garage to visit is because you can give them to a complete meathead mechanic, knowing they will break them, and you can just get them replaced. They make business sense, but they are not the best buy for anyone else.Quote from: EEVblog on May 13, 2021, 07:27:17 amOf course, but personally, I evaluate the market once when I am buying something. To constantly evaluate a changing market is to constantly be unhappy with your choice. To check out the best option when it is time to replace means you are (should be) happy with whatever you choose because you made the best choice you could.It's not so all or nothing/black and white as 'never evaluate' vs 'constantly evaluate', IMO the sensible option is to evaluate when you need to. Also, as I say above, the best choice for work is not necessarily the best choice for a lab or at home. They have different criteria.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 11:20:29 am
content: Quote from: Microdoser on May 28, 2021, 10:48:44 amI don't think Fluke's warranty covers damage to the meter, only factory defects.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 12:51:17 pm
content: Correct! The Fluke lifetime warranty covers a lot less than I thought. So it's not the reason why I would buy a Fluke.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 02:05:49 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 28, 2021, 08:01:43 amThe link points to a 9 page thread..Quote from: Microdoser on May 28, 2021, 10:48:44 amPrecisely. When we use our own devices and take good care of them, the time spent on the research for maximum bang per buck in features and quality is quite rewarding. For a business, not so much.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 03:16:44 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 28, 2021, 12:51:17 pmThere may be enough cases of a Fluke rep giving somebody a replacement meter (or cheap TL75 leads) to have created that myth but there's no way they could do it in real life. They'd make exponentially less money as time went by.Quote from: rsjsouza on May 28, 2021, 02:05:49 pmUmmm... maybe my browser went somewhere else...But yeah, that's the one I was thinking of.

author: ralphrmartin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 06:35:23 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 28, 2021, 03:16:44 pmMany years ago there was a company in the UK that claimed that other incandescent light bulb manufacturers gave their products a deliberately short life to increase sales. The new company made and sold a bulb with a "forever" guarantee (or maybe just many years, I forget now). It seems they were not in business for very long...

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 06:59:45 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 28, 2021, 03:16:44 pmI don't know what kind of myth you're talking about but my original 87 (87 version 1), 189, 289 all came with what Fluke called "Limited Lifetime Warranty" and I have used it and I will list all the incidents.My original 87 (I think I bought it in 89) after a few years had bad display and I sent it to Fluke and they fixed it for free. Second time it happened in 2004 they said they can't fix it and give me $100 credit toward a new meter. So I bought the 189 with the credit.Around 2017 my co worker 189 broke and I sent it to Fluke they fixed it for free. In 2018 the same meter broke again and I sent it to them and they said no more warranty.My 87V I have at work had bad current banana jacks so it beeps all the time thinking the test lead is in. I sent it to Fluke and they fixed it free.My co worker 187 has the metal clip in the battery compartment broke and I sent it to Fluke and they replace the battery holder free. The second time he broke it they said it's not warranty.I purchased a couple of the IR3000-FC to have Fluke connect with the 287 and 289. One of them work. I returned the other 3 times and couldn't get one that works. Fluke rep came to see me and update the firmware. He did it with my working one first and managed to render it non working. He couldn't get any of them work. I returned all of the IR3000-FC units. The rep gave me a Fluke a3001FC amp meter free for my trouble.So my experience with Fluke is both good and bad. Still I think I would buy a Fluke instead of a Brymen.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 07:55:55 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 28, 2021, 06:59:45 pmYou throw around terms like "co worker" and "Fluke rep came to see me". Is this a corporate account? How many Fluke meters do you have around?It wouldn't surprise me that anybody who buys enough meters to have a "rep" gets better warranty treatment than the average joe.You also say things like "in 2004". Fluke has changed hands since then so I'd have to wonder if it's still the same today.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 08:33:04 pm
content: Brymen is an OEM, although they sell their own brand-name products. They have no dealers/distribution in Canada. Only under a rebadge name GreenLee (which electricians do respect).Otherwise, there's no end-user or after-sale support that I can see.Fortive/Fluke at least has local customer service, instead of getting some orphaned product, you can get support.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 11:13:25 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 28, 2021, 07:55:55 pmIn some cases like with my 87 I contact Fluke as a person because it's my own meter. My company do not have account with Fluke but we do buy a good number of Fluke meters. In my plant (our company have about 60 plants) we have about 30 or 40 meters. They are 87V, 287, 289, 376, 381, some IR cameras and a scopemeter. We buy them thru Grainger which we have corporate account with. I generally send meters that used in my plant out for repair so a co worker break it I would take care of the repair process. I don't really see a difference after Danaher bought Fluke although all companies change and most for the worse not the better. As far as the Fluke rep came to see me because I swap the IR3000FC several times with Grainger so they decided to ask Fluke to send a rep to see me. In fact back in 2004 when I bought the 189 Fluke contacted me and sent a couple of reps to interview me about the features of the up coming 287 and 289. They gave $100 gift card after the interview.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 11:17:56 am
content: Back in the day, I was working in a plant literally fresh out of high school doing college at night. Ended up breaking my fluke meter (cracked LCD) and sent it back to them. I'm pretty sure they didn't know me from a hole in the ground and the plant I was working in at the time wasn't large enough to register on any corporate list. At the time I was certain the warranty had expired but they got the meter back to me in a few days and no charge for anything. So my experience, reinforced with other experiences with Fluke is that they stand behind their hardware no matter whom you are. For me that was a good thing in many respects, for one starting out one doesn't have a test equipment budget, two it highlighted that I can count on the company. Even much later in my life, working for a much larger company, I still see very ethical behavior and good service from Fluke.That isn't to say the company is perfect, no company is. What it says is that you can expect good service no matter if you are a peon at a tiny family run business or and established tech at company with 1000's of employees.Quote from: Fungus on May 28, 2021, 07:55:55 pm

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 01:23:02 pm
content: Fluke has many examples of good service around, which is always excellent.In my experience, Brymen also stood behind their products once when the stupidly fragile stand of my BM857 broke and they shipped me a replacement in no time - and I am a nobody for them as well. Also, the experiences reported by Joe and Dave regarding their genuine interest in listening to feedback from real users makes me confident their path is being traveled in a very good foundation.I sincerely hope that Brymen becomes a top of the mind brand alongside Fluke - we will all benefit from that.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2021, 12:55:18 am
content: Can't believe this is still being discussed, but I suppose for other shoppers coming along later it's still useful info.Last year I E-mailed Fluke about an 87V test lead issue and I got two new sets in the mail a few days later.The handheld Flukes I own (87V, 88V, 287) really surprised me with their DCV accuracy and temperature stability. 60F to 80F and they are basically spot on at first turn-on.Under the same conditions I'm always having to take extra care with my higher-count Brymens (869s, 789). 50k/60k count; so what, the last 1 and sometimes 2 digits are not valid in cases where they really should be. Maybe the Brymen 85x series DMMs are better in that regard?The magnet/speaker issue with the 78x affected me and I still don't have a full resolution, although I added some shielding so at least the speaker is audible with the magnet attached.But on the flip side the Flukes have their negatives and the Brymens their positives, obviously...The best part is if you're shopping for either, the information you need to make a good decision for your use case is here on the forums if you're willing to put in a little effort.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2021, 05:42:48 pm
content: A big reason Fluke can continue to charge what they do is because we know how Fluke meters age: a 30 year old Fluke still works perfectly, and will still be in-spec. While that is no guarantee that an individual Fluke meter will survive that long, it’s a strong clue as to the quality of their designs and component choices. Other brands that have similarly long, positive track records command similarly high prices.Aggressively priced newcomers could design a meter that’s every bit as good and will have the same long-term performance. But they won’t be able to command a high price for another few decades.Does this matter to a hobbyist? Not really. Does it matter in industries where test gear is safety-critical? You bet. They need to minimize risk, and buying a new brand is a higher risk than the old, well known one. Even better if the specific models have been around for ages, as using a model they already know reduces risk even further.

author: Cymaphore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2021, 08:59:54 am
content: Quote from: J-R on May 30, 2021, 12:55:18 amMine works fine if the magnet is in the upside down orientation. I considered cutting the other end of the magnet so that I can still use the strap. But I rarely need that, so not done that yet.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2021, 03:29:40 pm
content: As far as Fluke lifetime warranty it seems that I can always get them to fix it once but not twice.