Counterfeit fire extinguishers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: zl2wrw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2016, 08:35:27 am
content: I wonder how many counterfeit fire extinguishers are making it onto the market and being bought by unsuspecting suckers?This appears to be what happens when a dodgy supplier fills an extinguisher with the wrong (presumably cheaper) chemical:(I have no association with "contactacb")I'd hate to have to use a fire extinguisher for real, only to find out the hard way that it is a "not fit for use" counterfeit

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2016, 09:05:12 am
content: Does not have to be a fake, it could have been just the wrong type (e.g. water based). The second one was a powder type - this one is quite good in fighting the fire, but it also makes a huge mess, that might be worse than the damage from a small fire.The fist one obviously was not a powder type (or at least the powder was not coming out), as there was no mess around.It could be water or maybe a CO2 type. With the oil very hot from burning already quite some time if could be that a CO2 type is not enough. A Water type could even make an oil fire worse, but if would be a good choice for burning wood.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2016, 09:10:52 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on August 28, 2016, 09:05:12 amFrom the video description:Quote

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2016, 09:36:32 am
content: Quote from: zl2wrw on August 28, 2016, 08:35:27 amI would say this has to be rare - here in France the extinguishers have to be government certified, the vendors have to be certified and the extinguishers have to be periodically inspected (once a year, I believe) and replaced, at least in public places. So while that doesn't preclude a counterfeit getting on the market, it would be a suicidal move by that vendor, once discovered.Obviously, if the country doesn't have strict regulation and market control of these things, then all bets are off - was that video from Indonesia?

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2016, 09:46:42 am
content: You can buy extinguishers at the DIY store for your own use that are not tied to a building/location and thus not regularly certified/checked. Given it's not exactly a thing you use everyday if such a store received counterfeits it could be years until someone actually uses one and notices they're inefficient.

author: zl2wrw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2016, 10:17:44 am
content: Quote from: janoc on August 28, 2016, 09:36:32 amI do not know which country the video is from, but in New Zealand, we import lots of (relatively cheap) manufactured goods from Asia, with relatively little oversight, so I would not be surprised if they showed up on the market here. We do have standards for fire extinguishers (eg AS/NZS 1841.5), but I am not sure how well it is enforced (or if a dodgy manufacturer could get away with forged paperwork).From my experience in the workplace in NZ, fire extinguishers seem to get checked every year, but this check seems to mostly be just be a visual and checking the pressure gauge and or weight of the extinguisher (the composition of the contents inside are not checked - the manufacturer’s honesty is taken for granted).Every five years (I think), they get taken away and the pressure vessels are emptied, hydrostatic pressure tested and checked for cracks etc and then refilled - in some cases it is cheaper to simply replace an old extinguisher with a new one, instead of paying for a full hydro-test & service. As FE-36 is expensive (and releasing substances with a high GWP to atmosphere is frowned upon), I can imagine that the fake FE-36 would get recycled into other extinguishers as part of the hydo-test & refill process (fire extinguisher service people taking the honesty of the contents marked on the extinguisher label for granted)."contactacb" also posted a video of a supposedly real FE-36 extinguisher (vs burning oil?)

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2016, 10:21:45 am
content: When I lived in the UK we had a small fire extinguisher in the kitchen that had a 'use by' date. Well, the date finally arrived and to keep everybody happy I bought a new one, but what to do with an old fire extinguisher? Start a fire of course. The girlfriend had never used a fire extinguisher in anger so I setup a small fire in the garden inside a steel container and set her loose with the old device, she had great fun.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2016, 10:34:11 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on August 28, 2016, 09:46:42 amYes, certainly. Not sure how it is in Switzerland, but here in France the extinguishers have to have a French government certificate on them, so stuff from who-knows-where cannot be sold. Moreover, most are locally manufactured (French companies, again must be certified), not imports.So, in theory, what you are describing could happen, but considering how many of these are sold and used over time (BBQ fires, car fires, etc.), I would think we would have heard about it already if there were ineffective counterfeits on the market. I think it is way more likely that the extinguisher will not work because it is old and lost pressure (as you said - people don't have them inspected) or because it is of a wrong type than because it is a fake.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2016, 11:05:40 am
content: If I was the building owner I would not be happy with the damage done to that epoxy cement floor with the fires, unless I was either being paid to resurface and repaint, or was about to otherwise destroy the floor and roof.But, as most places have already banned Halon in fire systems, aside from the US military, NASA and on board aircraft, there should be very little in use anywhere. The replacements are almost as effective as Halon, but have various drawbacks and caveats for use that precludes them from use in some areas. The ISS still has Halon systems on board, and they can never change them out to something else, but they do have a lot of spare Halon gas to refill it with.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2016, 12:29:23 pm
content: Mandatory infographic?The fun thing is, they were doing safety training for the few designated first aid and incident response people at work. And a lot failed their first attempt to extinguish a fire.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2016, 03:14:14 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on August 28, 2016, 09:05:12 amI don't think the second one was powder, the white stuff is just the gas condensing water vapour in the air as it evaporates.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2016, 03:24:11 pm
content: These would be great for extinguishing the electrical fires in circuits "protected" bythese counterfeit fuses.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2016, 03:39:25 pm
content: i seriously doubt anybody would put several pounds of Freon in an extinguisher, that stuff is so expensive now that it would be much cheaper to fill an extinguisher with powdered silver!!even before it was banned it was very costly, we used to use it in ultrasonic tanks.

author: Nuzzler
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2016, 03:19:33 pm
content: Wow...makes me want to go test mine before I need to use them for real. I got them at Home Depot and not off a random truck in an alley so hopefully they are legit.- Nuzz

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2016, 03:42:35 pm
content: Quote from: stj on August 29, 2016, 03:39:25 pmR-12 is banned. Freon =/= R12.Freon is a brand name and there are still many different types of fluorocarbon chemicals being sold as Freon.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2016, 05:09:05 pm
content: Freon and similar gases only got that expensive after they got banned for most uses. Before that Halon extinguishers where not that expensive. Today use may be still permitted in 3 rd world countries. There you may also end up with some undefined mixtures of whatever is leftover. Still the cheaper extinguishers today are more like CO2 or powder type. With the CO2 ones the problem on poor quality is more a not so stable or tight container than the gas itself. With lowest quality power extinguishers there is a chance that poor powers might stick and not not disperse after longer storage / heat cool cycles or just no driving gas left when needed.I would be surprised if the 2. nd one was a CO2 or other gas type. The fog usually clears out quite fast and does not stick to the ground. Also the good effect point towards powder. The big question is what the 1 st. one is supposed to be. For a fake power type the time it was used was rather long - usually there are just a 10 seconds or so. So for the 2nd try they may have used about 1/4 of the contend. Form the slight fog from the 1st one this more seems like a gas type (e.g. CO2).I think the video does not much sense without knowing what type of extinguisher the 1 st one is supposed to be. If it is supposed to be a powder type - no need for the fire to show failure.

author: zl2wrw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2016, 11:07:07 am
content: Quote from: macboy on August 30, 2016, 03:42:35 pmIn countries which have ratified the Montreal protocol, importation and manufacture of R12 (and other CFCs) and release to atmosphere is banned, however, I understand that there is an exemption to the atmospheric release ban for firefighting (all those old airliners with halon systems are allowed to keep them and the crew won't be prosecuted if they have to use them to deal with a fire?).However, it appears that (new?) R12 is still commercially available in some parts of the world eghttps://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/R12-Refrigerant-for-Auto-Air-Conditioner_270867643.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.f88eKQ&s=p$4USD for a box of 15x cans of CCL2F2 (aka R12) seems rather cheap for something that is banned here in NZ.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2016, 11:42:12 am
content: Quote from: wraper on August 28, 2016, 09:10:52 amFreon + flame = phosgene. Very poisonous!http://journal.publications.chestnet.org/article.aspx?articleid=1095693

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2016, 12:16:58 pm
content: Quote from: Circlotron on August 31, 2016, 11:42:12 amOn the up side, at least it would give the fire a lovely "Freshly Cut Grass" smell, instead of the normal acrid smoke.

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2016, 02:51:31 pm
content: the problem is that there are many garage based sellers online which the government has a hard time tracking. Importing or smuggling from china and selling online at near the original prices. They get your money and give you more problems.Bike helmets are a prime example as chinese ones crack or break while genuine ones dont. in china they dont regulate it because they would prefer if you die in order to reduce population.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2016, 03:00:44 pm
content: Why would they use freon of any kind, surely Nitrogen is cheaper and more easily available ?It also has the advantage of not being flammable and liquidfiable.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2016, 04:20:59 pm
content: nitrogen does not suppress combustion, as the air is mostly nitrogen anyway. it is also not heavier than air so it is nearly impossible to actually apply it to a fire.the way halons work is that they interrupt the chemical reaction in which the fuel reduces oxygen gas. once halon is on the fuel, it is more easily reduced than oxygen, so that reaction is favored over combustion. the fuel gets halogenated and that product covers the fuel and makes it nonflammable. when the flame is thus interrupted and the fuel is below the autoignition temperature, the fire is out.the replacements for halon today seem to be FE-36 and Novec 1230. I would think a lab test using a candle would be much easier and more quantitative than these dramatic fire department stagings.one of the hazards of fluorinated fire extinguishers is that HF can be produced, depending on how high the temperature is.I just rewatched the original video: At around 1:00 you can see flame lick back along the jet to the nozzle of the fire extinguisher. So the chemical in the can is clearly flammable. Many fluorocarbons are flammable this way: for instance, the R-134a in cans of dust-off can be ignited.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2016, 04:30:52 pm
content: Thank you helius for explaining why halon works, I have learned something.I will try to be more specific in my statement/question.The OP showed a video of a fire extinguisher which totally failed to put a fire out.In some replies it has been suggested that the counterfeit fire extinguishers used Freon.I am betting the counterfeiters used Nitrogen gas instead of Freon because it is cheaper and more freely available.They probably thought, hey nitrogen does not burn so it will probably work instead of CO2 right ?I had guessed that Nitrogen would not work, otherwise it would be used in extinguishers.Yes, I know that nitrogen is not heavier than air.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2016, 04:44:16 pm
content: Quote from: zl2wrw on August 31, 2016, 11:07:07 amIt is very likely to be a propane+isobutane mixture as this is functionally the same as R12 and works in R12 systems without conversion

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2016, 07:21:30 pm
content: Quote from: helius on August 31, 2016, 04:44:16 pmFun, a leak of very flammable gas, most common on older vehicles that used R12, right next to a hot engine and exhaust, and just at the right places to catch fire and burn nicely.Most common refrigerant in cheap fridges is R600, which is pretty flammable, seeing as it is basically a very pure LPG in there. Not nice, seeing as there is almost no copper piping in use there now, it all being either a steel pipe, or a short copper syub on an aluminium plate instead, with the hot defrost loop almost always being the failure, as the steel piping in the door always tends to corrode with time, and this leak is not repairable at all. The condenser being the walls of the unit as well makes them non repairable either. Scrapyards will not take them, as there is almost no steel in there at all, and very little copper wire either, the motors being wound with CCA wire.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 10:57:13 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on August 31, 2016, 07:21:30 pmThe AC in my 2006 VW GTI had a hard time keeping up on very hot summer days, so I consider charging it with propane. By my calculations it would have decreased the outlet temperature by 15c!It's not that much propane, really, so it's not much of a fire hazard. Especially when compared to the tank of gas you're sitting on!I ended up getting a tank of the normal R1shitty-shit and recharging the system myself, than I had the windows tinted with a special thermally reflective film. I also got one of those silver Mylar windshield shades. That basically solved my problem.(Turns out, the biggest issue was the black dashboard and trim. It just sucked up heat all day long. Hence the tint and screen helping out so much.)

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 11:23:45 pm
content: Truth is counterfeit items dont just come from china, there is a huge criminal network behind this and has been a problem even in the past decades as well. They just so happen to come from china due to the cheap labour and how easy it is to hide a factory underground there literally. The criminals/gangs make a quick and easy buck by mixing the counterfeit items with genuine and also by making many uninformed sellers think it as a good deal.So becareful when you buy and if you are planning to resell, you may make a profit if not caught but you are also giving criminals or basically the wrong people (or people who would kill and cause harm) money.Thats not to say that governments arent causing problems too. NSA has been sneaky with cisco by infiltrating the company and planting backdoors because every big company/military buys them and china has been doing the same with their products (if you were chinese in china doing business exporting you wouldnt dare oppose the CCP).