Availability of Panasonic FR caps??  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: jdurango
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 04:34:36 am
content: I'm recapping a bunch of audio gear and decided to use Panasonic FR caps due to their high operating temps, low ESR, 5-10k hour rating and known brand quality.Imagine my disappointment when they seem to be out of stock or back ordered @ Digikey and Mouser.....nothing at all @ Jameco. Lead time is supposedly 4 months?! What's going on? Is there some super secret dark web cryptocurrency source for these things? I promise I'm not a cop!If they really are OOS everywhere, what's my next best option for similar specs/price-point? Thanks fellas!

author: cvanc
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 12:10:42 pm
content: Not sure I'm seeing what you're seeing?Just took a quick look on Digi-Key; it shows 410 different values for the FR series in their database, with 316 of those values showing as in stock. That's not wonderful but it's not terrible either.Maybe try a slightly different value or voltage (or size) that will still work for you?

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 12:29:46 pm
content: Are you sure you NEED FR series for audio?Some people stay away from ultra low ESR capacitors in audio path and other audio related stuff (pretty much all except the switching power supplies powering stuff) claiming ultra low esr capacitors affect sound and that it sounds worse.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 02:39:44 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on March 29, 2019, 12:29:46 pmCorrect. ESR is usually measured in ranges above 20KHz - pretty much 50/100 KHzUseless in audio below 20kHzYou want HIGH QUALITY CAPS - not ESR type ones.Usually Rubycon/SANYO/ TEAC-Panasonic /NNCbut the real ELCO ones - not ESR seriesthey do have some specific seriesPaul

author: jdurango
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 08:17:50 pm
content: Hmmmm, okay in most of the threads I'm seeing on EEVblog, GroupDIY and similar legit sources (ie non audiophool stuff) people are saying low ESR is the biggest factor to look for, in conjuction with, or perhaps closely followed by high operating temp and long life.....and of course good brand.Why would higher ESR caps be preferable in any section of an audio circuit (pricepoint notwithstanding)?Specifically the projects I'm currently working on are a Velodyne Servo Series subwoofer and an Ampex MX10 / MX35 tube mixer (lots of film caps). Upcoming will be a Quad Eight / Electrodyne MM71 mixing console and custom discrete Quadraphonic console.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 08:26:24 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 29, 2019, 02:39:44 pmWoo wooo BS series. Like it's nice to exploit audiofool market to get some additional income.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 08:37:54 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 29, 2019, 02:39:44 pmThere is no Sanyo for 10 years already. Capacitor division of Sanyo is now SUNCONhttps://www.sunelec.co.jp/eng/. The rest of Sanyo got bought by Panasonic and Fujitsu. If you see Sanyo capacitors, those are either counterfeits of very old stock.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 11:36:34 am
content: Quote from: wraper on March 29, 2019, 08:37:54 pmTRUE indeed - but they are so damn good that I still have a box of themin good shape to be used. Other brands like Panasonic also diverted theirinternals to face the new markets...I think that Technics and other "brands" jus vanish the void in theturning 2000 - Marantz, McIntosh, Sansui, JVC these are 80/90s brands...A plethora of "new" things arrived with usb and 5/7/11.. "channels" and HDMIcrappy thing - you can't even put an old school stereo headset anymore asAC5.1 will be likely to mess channels in your analog LR brain..Things are messy today in electronics corporations...10/20y ago just a dozen brands would make sense..Paul

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 12:33:28 pm
content: Quote from: jdurango on March 29, 2019, 08:17:50 pmfor a SMPS

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 01:06:16 pm
content: Low ESR capacitors must be used in switch mode power supplies, due to the high frequencies they operate at (typically 200kHz or higher)If your audio amplifier uses a classic power transformer (heavy standard transformer or toroidal) with big capacitors, then low ESR capacitors won't make any difference.In the actual audio circuit (let's say where you deal with opamps, preamplifier chips, audio amplifier chips), using very low ESR capacitors like the FR series won't help.I've heard for example some people recommending Panasonic FC series for audio ... it's low ESR but not super low esr as FM or FR series and uses an older electrolyte formula. People were saying that the electrolyte in the FM and FR series (if I remember correctly, there's two different formulas) are "too aggressive", too optimized for low ESR and hurting audio quality.For today's standards it's not considered great for switching power supplies anymore, but its average specifications could make it good for audio - it's 105c rated, it's rated for 2k hours or more depending on volume of capacitor, it's a series that's produced for a long time and will probably be produced for long time in the future...Nichicon has some audio series capacitors, you can see the chart here (see bottom, right) :http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/images/daia_img/e-alm_mini.gifThere's some marketing speak and silly stuff in the datasheets, but some of the series are not that expensive and are available on Digikey and other distributors... and even if the "for audio" claims are bogus, they're still capacitors made by a reputable company.I wouldn't hesitate for example using 85c rated series like FW, KW, FG, KZ where they're not very close to hot chips or heatsinks... for example near class-d headphone amplifier chips, pre-amps, opamps , etc ... for capacitors very close to hot heatsinks, 105c series like KA or KT could be used.Rubycon also makes good capacitors... don't see "audio grade" capacitors here but you can see what they're "optimized for" (see page 2 for regular electrolytic) :http://www.rubycon.co.jp/en/catalog/e_pdfs/e_SERIES-CHART.pdfFor audio circuits, I'd stay away from very/ultra low ESR series (ZLK, ZLG, ZLJ, ZLH) but the more average ones (ZL, YXF, YXG) would probably be fine for audio.I also remember at least one person claiming that the RX30 series (130c rated electrolytic capacitors) made their audio amplifier sound great.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 03:51:46 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on March 30, 2019, 01:06:16 pmOh, golden ear. Those who claim greatly improved sound after simply changing electrolytic capacitors are full of BS, unless original were faulty.QuoteAnd won't hurt either. Especially if not in signal path. And for power of D-class amp it can actually be quite reasonable choice. In the nutshell it's a buck converter with adjustable output voltage. Exactly the thing those ultra low ESR capacitors are designed for.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 04:06:11 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on March 30, 2019, 01:06:16 pmThose people would better have a more elaborate explanation or a blind listening test to show for it.Keep in mind that there are people out there who put stickers on their capacitors to improve the sound.If the caps are for power supply I doubt they are going to make much difference.For signal coupling at least it is believable that differences in linearity can exist so dedicated "audio" series may be preferable.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 04:22:26 pm
content: Dielectric absorption can increase distortion depending on the circuit and cap application.It's most evident in feedback-divider networks at low frequencies.Most old (70-80's) electrolytic caps have increasing ESR over about 10kHz which is quite audible.Modern parts all have low ESR in the audio band, so I don't think ESR is an issue other than the DA change that comes with ultra-low ESR part's chemistry.I haven't seen any recent THD tests with electrolytic capacitors. Solid-polymers are terrible for audio coupling caps, very high DA.Then you have Nichicon "Muse" series with silk in there for velvet sound or something. I think its crossing into the audiophoolery world. But I have not done formal tests and put them in if a customer requests.I use Panasonic FC's in audio gear and mixing consoles without any complaints.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 04:26:56 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on March 30, 2019, 01:06:16 pmThe reason for this is instructive. In high frequency applications, the capacitance is less important than the ESR and ripple current rating. In a low frequency application like a line frequency power supply, the capacitor is selected based on capacitance to achieve a maximum amount of ripple and this capacitance is so high that the ESR is always low enough and the ripple current rating is always high enough.So I agree; you can use low impedance high frequency capacitors for line frequency applications but the advantage is insignificant because the capacitance needed is so high anyway producing a low impedance even at high frequencies.Aluminum electrolytic capacitors used for audio coupling applications are a different matter and will introduce excessive distortion if not significantly larger than the required low frequency cutoff frequency would otherwise require.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 04:34:40 pm
content: Wraper pointed out one good reason for low ESR in audio amps. It applies to all of the quasi-digital, quasi-analog architectures.While I question the audio impact of low ESR units in any other audio application, the do have impact related to what you are doing. You are recapping because capacitors failed (unless you just enjoy the activity). And the number one cause of failure in electrolytics beyond initial quality is heat. Lower ESR means lower heat. That reduction is mandatory in SMPS, they would cook of in minutes with high ESR's. But even in a power line frequency supply there can be a noticeable temperature rise. High ESR caps won't die in minutes or even months, but over the years it makes a difference.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 05:18:06 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 30, 2019, 04:34:40 pm2 cents of ripple...The "reason" for this ESR hassle was indeed the exponential raise of SMPSmostly due to computers and also by the increasing need for smaller spaces.In the resume:- ESR are relevant above 50KHz were vastly majority PSUs operate (~70KHz)- modern VRM raised that need to insane 300/400/500 KHz- summed with insane amperage surges of 100/200A (ripple goes along)With that figures of high freq. insanely high current it makes sense even microOhmspower heat.AUDIO? Think again .. you have centered 1KHz with std deviation for 100..5KHzEven a 1 Ohm load of milivolt ripple at 1KHz would not produce that kind of killer heatIn other words. ESR below 10KHz for milivolts or some few volts will notdry a solid rock well built ELCO. Not even in 40 years.Good brands like Sansui/AKAI/ CROWN/Technicsare still working fine just some few mistreated units along years will need thatRarely seen those brands after 40 yeas of use having massive failures.Can't say that even for modern ATX in half year of use ...MOBOS may take 1 year to crap all "SOLID DURABLE" crappy modern capsor crappy monitors PSUs failing after less than a year...2 cents of facts I have seen along last decadesbelow 10KHz forget ESR. it is useless and expensivePaul

author: jdurango
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 06:27:22 pm
content: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like everyone is saying that while low ESR may not be demonstrably BETTER for audio, it's not demonstrably WORSE either? And the concensus is that they're better in power supplies, especially SMPS?So again, is there any reason to specifically AVOID low ESR caps for audio other than just saving a few pennies on certain caps @ certain places in certain audio circuits?I'd just like to find a good general purpose audio cap brand/series and stick with it when possible. If it saves me time but costs a few $ extra per average recap job, I'm fine with that.Right now, based on brand quality, ESR, heat, life, price/performance ratio and general availability as of 3/2019 I'm thinking Rubycon ZLx series (ZLJ, ZLH, etc). Or maybe I should just use these for general PSU duties and stick with some cheaper series for the audio circuit?Again, if I'm misguided in this approach, please let me know. And again, I'm not designing circuits and ordering truckloads of these. At max, it seems like there's a few dollars to be saved on an average recap job so why bother? Especially when it's the smaller audio circuit caps (not the expensive PSU caps) that I'm saving $ on. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 06:47:45 pm
content: ESR is a figure of merit for electrolytic capacitors in power supply applications, today.Extra low ESR electrolytic capacitors have different chemistry and are designed for SMPS power supplies. Their dielectric absorption is unknown and I haven't seen anyone quantify it.So I'm saying there is a risk they (extra low ESR) sound worse than caps with moderate ESR.You are best to peruse vintage audio recap forums to see what they are going with. FC series is known good. Otherwise go to the audio exotic capacitor lines (Muse).If you think ESR is top priority, take a listen to a solid-polymer cap in an audio application to better understand that ESR is not the Holy Grail here.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 07:07:31 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 30, 2019, 06:47:45 pmAnother golden ear

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 07:19:06 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 30, 2019, 06:47:45 pmIt's a stupid argument. It can be better or worse than general purpose capacitors have. And general purpose caps are not equal and use different chemistry as well. If you want actual figures, it can be measured easily without any special equipment. PSU and multimeter is all you need. It's just it will take 75 minutes to do. But if you do it in batch, it's not a lot of time per cap at all.

author: jdurango
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 08:23:18 pm
content: I think this is unhelpful and an oversimplification.I've worked with mastering engineers who have absolutely incredible ears, they work on VERY expensive gear that you would probably consider unnecessarily wasteful and over-engineered, yet they get paid A LOT of money by big artists and labels to make almost unnoticeable alterations to mixes, even when judged in a treated listening environment with $20,000 custom tuned monitors.....which, by the way, if you'd ever heard a system like that in a treated room playing uncompressed audio from tape or through a stellar DAC, it would be undeniable that it's not ALL just a bunch of hocus pocus audiophoolery.That said, there is PLENTY of hocus pocus audiophoolery, ESPECIALLY in the consumer/prosumer world. Most folks I know in the professional studio world use plain old decent $4 neutrik or switchcraft connectors for everything and have their $10,000 Amphions or ProAc monitors hooked up with lamp cord or basic radio shack 16ga speaker wire. That said, you'll find RCA black plate tubes in their amps, and yes, probably "fancy audio grade" caps in most of their gear.The reason being, that while the difference may be infinitesimally small, and barely noticeable (or even not noticeable by 99.9% of engineers), those differences add up at the end of a project. If your signal path runs through amps/keyboards/samplers/etc then on to mics, preamps, compressors, EQ's, signal processors, mixing consoles, summing boxes, ADC/DAC and whatever else, those tiny, tiny infinitesimal differences may not be noticeable on any one piece of gear in a blind A/B test, but add them up on all those stages of signal path, across 100 different tracks/instruments/voices/effects in a mix, and then 2-bus mastering duties....there might be a subjective 1-2% difference in audio quality hiding in there, and for many artists/labels/producers that's more than enough to justify the cost...or at least play it on the safe side.Anyway, I really don't want to rehash this debate. I just just want to find a good type(s) of general series cap to use to freshen up a bunch of old audio gear. I'm not looking for "audiophool grade vintage gold NOS" marketing mumbo jumbo. Just a good series with proper SPECS that are not overstated.Maybe I should be looking at one series for PSU section and another for audio section? With perhaps another (higher temp) for valve gear? If so, recommendations?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 09:01:49 pm
content: So I took 4 caps and measured dielectric absorption. Note that all measurements done at 25V so only half of rated voltage for 50V caps.General purpose:Samwha RD 100uF 50V - 2.86%Samwha RD 220uF 25V - 6,02%LOW ESR:Panasonic FR 47uF 50V - 3.56%Panasonic FM 47uF 25V - 4.39%Nothing conclusive, but low ESR series landed in between of two general purpose caps of the same series. Also it seems that from dielectric absorption standpoint it's better to use capacitors rated for higher voltage.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 09:06:28 pm
content: Unless you have an AP distortion analyzer and properly do a THD experiment, including applied DC bias on the capacitor, the only test equipment you have is those damned golden ears.We're off the capacitor datasheets here. Same with using X7R ceramics for audio signal coupling. Same with comparing film dielectrics - polystyrene, polypropylene, mylar, PPS - there is little or no manufacturer data. It's only old wisdom about the dielectric's properties that audio engineers rely upon. The last comparison on electrolytic capacitor distortion in audio was in (I think) Elektor many years ago. I'd have to dig for it.For some facts, refer to excellent books: Bob Cordell "Audio Amplifier Design" (has similar advice). Note they both neglected to go into high frequency effects (ESR) with applied DC.Douglas Self "Audio Power Amplifier Design Handbook"Distortion 8: Capacitor Distortion"When I wrote the original series on amplifier distortion , I listed seven types of distortion that defined an amplifier's linearity. The number has since grown, and Distortion 8 refers to capacitor distortion. This has nothing to do with subjectivist hypotheses about mysterious non-measurable effects; this phenomenon is all too real, though for some reason it seems to be almost unknown – or at any rate not talked about – amongst audio designers. Clearly this is the distortion that dare not speak its name.It is, however, a sad fact that both electrolytic and non-electrolytic capacitors generate distortion whenever they are used in such a fashion that a significant AC voltage develops across them. Standard aluminum electrolytics create distortion when they are used for coupling and DC blocking, while driving a significant resistive load. <shows graphs>The distortion is a mixture of second and third harmonic, and rises rapidly as frequency falls, at something between 12 and 18 dB/octave.The great danger of this mechanism is that serious distortion begins while the response roll-off is barely detectable; here the THD reaches 0.01% when the response has only fallen by 0.2 dB. The voltage across the capacitor is 2.6 V peak, and this voltage is a better warning of danger than the degree of roll-off.Further tests showed that the distortion roughly triples as the applied voltage doubles; this factor seems to vary somewhat between different capacitor rated voltages. The mechanism by which capacitors generate this distortion is unclear. Dielectric absorption appears to be ruled out as this is invariably (and therefore presumably successfully) modeled by adding linear components, in the shape of resistors and capacitors, to the basic capacitor model. Reverse-biasing is not the problem, for capacitors DC biased by up to +15 V show slightly increased, not reduced, distortion. Nonpolarized electrolytics show the same effect but at a much greater AC voltage, typically giving the same distortion at one-tenth the frequency of a conventional capacitor with the same time-constant; the cost and size of these components generally rules out their use to combat this effect. Us ually the best solution is simply to keep increasing the capacitor value until the LF distortion rise disappears off the left of the THD graph. Negligible roll-off in the audio band is not a sufficient criterion.Electrolytics are therefore best reserved for DC filtering, and for signal coupling where the AC voltage across them will be negligible. If a coupling capacitor does have AC voltage across it, and drives the usual resistive load, then it must be acting as a high-pass filter. This is never good design practice, because electrolytics have large tolerances and make inaccurate filters; it is now clear they generate distortion as well..."

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 09:09:53 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 30, 2019, 09:06:28 pmIt's useless unless you do a blind test. You won't reliably distinguish 2 caps unless there is something horribly wrong with them. Not to say, very often worse sounds "better". Adding distortions often sound like increased "clarity".

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 09:46:12 pm
content: Yes, it falls into a subjective quality when the listener likes the "colouration" or it covers over other distortions. I haven't done an audio capacitor shootout for a long time, which would involve my ears as I can't afford an AP.This is how silly it can get:http://tech.juaneda.com/en/articles/electrolyticcapacitors.html, note he changes them in thepower supply....To OP's question, I am using Panasonic FC or Nichicon Muse (only 85C) recapping audio gear. Gearslutz forums aren't bad for other's opinions.

author: jdurango
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 11:21:49 pm
content: Thank you! Panasonic FC/FM/FR seems to be ubiquitous!I love gearslutz for advice on gear, but it can get a little "phoolish" when it comes to techy stuff, hence my search here....which may be a bit too far in the techy camp, if that's possible. I think I'll try GroupDIY which is probably the best of both worlds. Most of the prominent guys on that forum are actual audio circuit designers, techs and EE's who specialize in audio.Anyway, this has been a very enlightening discussion. Thanks everyone!