Philips/Fluke PM6303 LCR meter, just won ebay auction - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: nixxon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2012, 09:04:45 pm
content: Hi!I do some hobby electronics repair and have been looking for a semi-decent LCR meter with ESR measuring capability. I have been looking for a nice price Mastech MS5308 or similar. I want to be able to do some in circuit component testing.Somehow, I just became highest bidder on an ebay Philips PM6303. Of course, I hope it is worth the US $89.88 bid + US $75 shipping with USPS Express Mail® International (The express option saves me $41 in customs declaration fee at the mail office).Here is a 1991 brochure:http://www.teknetelectronics.com/DataSheet/PHILIPS/PHILI_630395255.pdfThe ebay description of the PM6303 RCL Meter and the PM9542 Test Adapter is as follows:"Fluke/Philips RCL MeterModel# PM6303 in good condition, items powers up.All items are sold as is."One of the fuzzy pictures shows the meter turned on with the test adapter plugged in without any other connections (8 banana posts not connected to anything).The LCD display of the meter reads 6.30 kH and shows the capacitance symbol and the inductance symbol in series. "RCL Auto" LED is lit.I have never used such an instrument. Should I worry about the readings on the display, or are they plausible of a good meter? I will be happy for any comments regarding this.If it works, I hope the meter will be a good companion, even though it only has 1 KHz measuring frequency.

author: grenert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2012, 10:16:39 pm
content: I don't know anything about this meter until now, so can't help you there. However, I was able to find a PDF user manual, which is attached.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2012, 10:43:16 pm
content: It appears to be a very capable LCR meter for making spot checks, if working its certainly more affordable than modern hand held LCR meters. The standard test frequency for most spec sheets is 1kHz, so its a simple way to confirm basic specifications. In specific applications, like RF or switch mode capacitors, the spec sheets may be derived using other frequencies, but these are less common usages; as always its good to confirm the test frequency before making comparisons.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2012, 10:57:25 pm
content: That's an absolute bargain!Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2012, 10:59:35 pm
content: Oh, I just realised it's the old model, and not the new model:Still should be a nice meter though.Dave.

author: nixxon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2012, 03:54:38 pm
content: Quote from: grenert on December 22, 2012, 10:16:39 pmThank you for enclosing the manual. Looks pretty straight forward to convert from 110 to 238 volts.

author: nixxon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2012, 04:06:27 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on December 22, 2012, 10:43:16 pmI presume 1kHz is perfectly good enough for my needs.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2012, 04:20:57 pm
content: Good LCR meter there, and it does work on 220V. Nice in that it can bias up to 2V for checking capacitors with no problems. I did use one to check 2000 capacitors, it was as fast as me to do the checking. Still took 2 days to get through them all.

author: nixxon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2012, 04:31:32 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 22, 2012, 10:57:25 pmI was really happy to read this comment, Dave. Still happy, even after reading your next post.It seems these meters (even old model) are pretty expensive on ebay. Wonder why the highest bid was an order of magnitudelower this time.The accuracy and resolution seems pretty awesome. The measuring span is also impressive

author: nixxon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2012, 05:07:03 pm
content: I still fear that the 6.30 kH on the LCD display means there is a major malfunction. I there a plausible reason for such a reading on a working meter?

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2012, 05:40:41 pm
content: Think about it... what would the characteristics of a 6300H inductor be? You could apply a voltage across it for a short time, but the current would ramp up so slowly you'd be lucky to measure any current at all. Over a short timescale, it would be hard to distinguish from an open circuit.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2012, 05:45:30 pm
content: Misadjusted zero setting, then the meter is overcompensated and thinks it has a realllllllllllly big inductor connected to the terminals when the probe assembly is removed. Plug in the 4 lead assembly with nothing in it then it will read 0.0pF.

author: nixxon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2012, 07:35:20 pm
content: Thank you, AndyC and SeanB for your comments that made me quite a bit calmer.If it should be of interest to anyone looking for RCL meter, there are no bids on a $ 50 meter on ebay with 1 day left: "LCR Meter by Tenma 72-370 w/case"I dont know the specs, but it may be a useful meter...

author: nixxon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2012, 10:44:07 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 23, 2012, 04:20:57 pmHope you at least caught one bad cap

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2012, 04:33:07 pm
content: Its a defacto standard for testing L & C. But on occasion, spec sheets are made using 10k or 100kHz, just keep an eye out when testing them. DCV bias of 2V is ok for general testing, but be skeptical about it because in actual use DC bias changes should be close to the operating voltage of most circuits, typically 5-12V, if true capacitance is critical to you. Bias for L is different, which is in current, and requires a current source but is not included in this LCR meter.http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/capacitor_voltage_change.htmQuote from: nixxon on December 23, 2012, 04:06:27 pm

author: blackdog
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2012, 04:52:36 pm
content: Hi,I have a newly purchased when he first came on the market ~1984.Yes very expensive...He gets used almost every day and is very fast in detecting the DUT.Switch on in 5 second and stable in 15 seconds, almost no drift.In 28 years i have one replace'd 1 capacitor, (3n3 polystyreen)Except the power supply the is nothing to calibirate :-)It's a nice instrument!Kind regarts,Blackdog

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2012, 03:56:54 am
content: Quote from: nixxon on December 22, 2012, 09:04:45 pmmaybe I'm doing something wrong, but there is not one completed listing for a 6303 that went for that on eBay across all TLDs. link to auction plz?

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2012, 10:03:38 am
content: QuoteThe ebay "completed listings" search is a bit useless, it's often better to use google to trawl through ebay past sales even though it isn't easy to search all the ebay domains.That said I can't see anything matching the OP's purchase......

author: Rick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2012, 01:02:38 pm
content: I used to see the "completed listings" on ebay.I cannot see anymore.Is this related with my settings? How do you get there?

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2012, 01:17:54 pm
content: QuoteNot sure if there's a user setting that could remove it but it's possibly country specific.It should be in the advanced search options though.

author: nixxon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2012, 05:30:27 pm
content: Hi! I have removed the specific ebay auction link until the item is shipped. I haven't heard from the seller after I won the auction. Hope he replies to my questions and payment as soon as the turkey & stuffing is properly processed.Now I have to get a four-wire kelvin clip and some SMD tweezers.

author: nixxon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2013, 11:18:10 am
content: The item is still not shipped and I have not heard from the seller since December 19.Maybe he has gone under cover?December 28 the item was somehow marked as shipped and I was provided a tracking number. The status of the item is still "Electronic Shipping Info Received", meaning "The U.S. Postal Service was electronically notified by the shipper on December 28, 2012 to expect your package for mailing. This does not indicate receipt by the USPS or the actual mailing date."What is really strange is that this seller has sold more than 600 items on ebay and has a 100,0% positive feedback score. What were the odds that the first transaction he should ever mess up was mine?

author: nixxon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2013, 06:22:48 pm
content: The seller has tricked me and probably will sell the PM6303 to someone else when he gets the chance. He pulled it off with some help from eBay Customer Support.Link to item:http://www.ebay.com/itm/140898370484Here is how he did it:December 22.(D-day) I won the auction on ebay item 140898370484 with a bid of $89.88. Seller is cica93, alias Avstar Aviation LLC in Florida, alias Carl Weisse.December 23.(D +1 day), I paid for the item and shipping.December 28.(D + 6 days), USPS status page and tracking number shows that the items are being shipped with USPSJanuary 6.(D + 15 days), I informed the seller that " I have already ordered additional accessories (Kelvin clips and SMD device tweezers) to the PM6303 that you are about to ship. I am looking forward to you shipping the item soon." No change in shipping status. (eBay generated message title: "I haven't received my item yet: "nixxon" sent a message about Fluke/Philips LCR Meter #140898370484")January 7.(D +16 days), I request seller's contact information based on the following explanation: Hi! I won an auction December 22 where cica93 is seller. (100,0% positive feedback and almost 700 items sold) I payed for the item + shipping soon after. I have emailed him multiple times about shipment method. I haven't heard from the seller since December 19. Should I regard this to be a possible problem? I want the seller to ship the item using USPS Express Mail International. December 28, I received a tracking number. Status today is still "The U.S. Postal Service was electronically notified by the shipper on December 28, 2012 to expect your package for mailing. This does not indicate receipt by the USPS or the actual mailing date." Please let me know what is good ebay practice for me to do in this situation.I really want the seller to ship this item. I have already bought complimentary equipment to be used with the won item as well.Best regards, "nixxon"January 8.(D + 17 days), I open a case at Ebay Resolution Center: Here's what you need to do next:Try to work things out with the seller. If you don't hear back by Jan 16, 2013, you can escalate this case to eBay Customer Support.What you should know:This case will automatically close on Feb 07, 2013 if the case is not escalated.Details you've provided:Problem: You have not received the itemYou have already contacted the seller through eBay MessagesYou paid on Dec 23, 2012The seller has not responded to youThe seller isn't working with you to solve the problemYou entered the phone number of "+47 XXXXXXXX"We can share your phone number with the seller.Additional information:"No reply from seller what so ever. I called (727)535-2600 multiple times, but only get a voice message telling me "You've reached a number that is disconnected or no longer in service".I really want this item, as I have invested in other hardware that go with this item only."The seller has provided the shipping information for your item. You can view the shipping information in the Resolution Center.If you receive the item, you can close the case in the Resolution Center.Seller's message to you:"There was a problem with the shipping label, was fixed with paypal yesterday Jan 07, item will ship tomorrow Jan 09"January 8.(D + 17 days), The seller answers for the first time and provides the following information: The seller has provided the shipping information for your item. You can view the shipping information in the Resolution Center.If you receive the item, you can close the case in the Resolution Center.Seller's message to you:"There was a problem with the shipping label, was fixed with paypal yesterday Jan 07, item will ship tomorrow Jan 09"January 8.,(D+ 17 days) answer from eBay Customer Service regarding request of seller's contact information the day before:Hello "nixxon",Thank you for contacting eBay; it’s my pleasure to assist you today.I understand that you are concerned because the tracking of your item shows no progress since the 28th. Usually it’s best to give it time (I know it’s already been about 10 days) as sometimes USPS tracking is slower to update. However, if you have not received your item by January 21st, you should open a case for your item. To do that, go to:http://resolutioncenter.ebay.comKeep in mind that timing is important. You can open a case after the estimated delivery date has passed, or 7 days after you paid for the item (if no estimated delivery date was given). You must open a case within 45 days of making payment.I know that it can be frustrating to wait that long for your item. However, as of right now I don’t see a reason to worry too much.I hope this answers your question and I wish you all of the best with your future eBay experiences.Very Respectfully,Jerrick G.eBay Customer ServiceJanuary 9.,(D+18 days) Rather than shipping the items as promised this day, the seller contacts eBay and escalates the case:Hi "nixxon",The seller has asked eBay Customer Support to review this case and make a final decision.We'll review the case details, such as messages sent in the Resolutions Center about this case and other emails sent through eBay between you and the seller. If we have questions, we'll get in touch with you. We'll get back to you within 72 hours.You can view the details of this case in the Resolution Center.January 9. (D+18 days), Message from Buyer Protection TeamDear "nixxon",We are sorry you are having an issue with the item you purchased. As a follow up on your eBay Buyer Protection case, we wanted to explain what you can expect from the process.Important things to know :The seller has been notified that you have not received your item and that you have opened a case in the Resolutions Center. Here are the next steps:1.The seller has a maximum of 7 days to respond to the case. Most sellers will respond with shipping status information or issue you a refund.2.If you are not able to work out a resolution with the seller, you need to escalate the case to eBay customer support to make a final decision.For most items you can expect a final decision, and if we find in your favour, a refund within 3 days of making our decision.3.Your case will time out in 30 days from when it was filed, if we do not hear from you. Please return to the Resolutions Center before that to let us know that you and the seller worked things out or that you need eBay customer support to make a decision.Action Required from you :•If you are unable to work things out with the seller or do not hear back from them in 7 days, please respond to your case in the Resolution Center and choose the "Escalate" option.What incentive is there for the seller to resolve your issue :•Sellers have a strong incentive to fix your issue. eBay takes eBay Buyer Protection cases very seriously. Sellers who are found to cause repeated problems on the eBay site will be negatively impacted in their seller standings and possibly suspended.eBay's Buyer Protection TeamJanuary 10. (D+19 days), I write the seller: Hi cica93!I don't receive any replies from you regarding my Emails to you. Do you get my Emails?2 days ago, you wrote: "There was a problem with the shipping label, was fixed with paypal yesterday Jan 07, item will ship tomorrow Jan 09"The USPS tracking has not changed since December 28.Did you ship the item yesterday?Best regards,"nixxon".January 10.,(D+19 days) notification from eBay Customer Support:Case # 5022130221: Customer Support made a final decisionHi "nixxon",Good news! We issued you a full refund of $164.51 on Jan 10, 2013. The refund includes the purchase price plus original shipping and has been credited to your PayPal account. Please log in to PayPal and view the History page if you don't see it in your PayPal balance.Decision:This case has been decided in your favor.Comments:We didn't receive valid tracking information from the seller. We're sorry you had a problem with your purchase, and we're issuing you a refund for this case.***************************There you have it. Above you find the recipe on how a seller can get away with it, bridging a contract, cancelling a deal and not shipping an item if he does not want to fulfill his part of an eBay deal. This way, the seller runs no risk by not having a minimum price and getting a relatively low highest bid for his items for sale.Now I just need to find another PM6303 for $164.51 including shipping. For your infomation current PM6303's on eBay have minimum prices that vary between $865 and $1750. The $164.51 refund is $1100 short of covering the average price of the other PM6303 LCR meters that are for sale at present at ebay. That is excluding shipping cost. "Decision in my favor", my assI guess cica93 never intended to ship the item. Maybe he will change his mind if I let him know that I am disappointed

author: nixxon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2013, 09:01:48 pm
content: I am both sad and satisfied to announce that cica93 is down from 100.0% to 95.5% satisfaction on eBay.I hoped and believed this would never happen.Worst seller ever experienced. Pure fraud. Stay clear of this seller.Why does a seller inflict this to himself? Beats me...rest in peace, cica93...(OK, I do I see the point that he could gain $1100 (short term gain) by ripping me off)

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2013, 10:01:47 pm
content: Don't confuse the asking price in other auctions with actual selling price. Some sellers relist the same item for months at 5-10x market value, in the hope some desperate fool or company that needs the item at any price comes along.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2013, 10:37:16 pm
content: It's a dirty trick, and I've had a couple similar occasions as well. For SUCH a high priced item, he'd know that he's in a high risksituation, and have an escape plan. The resolution process is such a MESS as well. I've had friends who've had their accounts /etc frozen because the seller / buyer had put in a fraudulent claim. All "tools" in the game. Luckily, most the time it works.Good luck

author: ve7xen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2013, 11:16:31 pm
content: Sounds like you got all your money back with relatively little fuss. eBay is a high risk playground, and you got burned, but you're not out much.It's much worse when you get sent the incorrect part or the description is an outright lie (ie. getting used and broken parts advertised as new). Then you've got to foot the bill for return shipping before you get your refund. Happened to me on a $200 lot of hard drives that cost $75 to ship. Almost wasn't worth returning them.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2013, 11:48:31 pm
content: It doesn't help your situation but I can report that I have had over 2100 ebay transactions and can count the number of times I had problems on one hand. It is a Gentlemans agreement on ebay....nothing more. If the seller refuses to ship and item or, more commonly, claims it has been lost or destroyed, there is absolutely nothing that can be done to force the seller to ship the item. I know from personal experience. IMHO ebay has become far more hazardous in the past few years...many instances of fraud or non-disclosure. I have complained regarding non disclosure of faults and usually obtain a partial refund. Its all just part of the 'game'.I understand your disappointment and have been in exactly the same situation. I learnt that it was best to move on, as life is too short and there is plenty of other stuff to spend the money on. By the way... I have lots of older Philips kit like the PM6303..... it is OLD and so liable to need a full capacitor re-fit and other refurbishment works. That LCR meter is great when new but it is one old girl now. Consider buying a more modern LCR meter with your money. It will likely be more accurate than an elderly Philips unit anyway. I have a lab type Wayne Kerr 4225 and I hardly ever use it now that I have the more compact Mastech 5308.All the BestFraser

author: Rick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 12:58:31 am
content: Quote from: nixxon on January 06, 2013, 11:18:10 amThis is USPS playing a trick with people. I had the same problem with a seller and thought he did not actually ship the item. Like you I opened a case and won it however the bloody item arrived a few days later... I had to contact the seller and pay him again. Strangely he did not want the shipping cost paid. I insisted to pay the shipping cost too of course. I paid both the shipping cost and the agreed price of the item a second time after I got a refund. Now it looks like the bargraph of that Fluke 87 does not work right but that's fine as I got it cheap. This is to say, as ebay points out, you should wait till the end before opening a case. You will probably receive that item. I can bet on that. Sometimes USPS displays that misleading message which makes you think the item has not been shipped. So if you receive the item pay him again:) Someone does't get a 100% positive feedback if he is a crook.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 07:19:51 pm
content: I've only been 'burned' 2x in an eBay purchase, but I waited until the date of receipt had passed before opening a case. One item of two from the same seller from China never arrived, when I queried the seller after the delivery date had expired he immediately refunded my money, which was very nice of him because he 'ate' the loss. I gave him good feedback despite not having an item and waiting 1 month.The second seller was from a USA source. He never returned my emails, item never shipped. eBay immediately refunded my money without question.In legal issues in the USA, you send 3 polite demand letters, return receipt. I did the same via eBay mail, about 1-2 days apart; eBay can get copies of those communiques from their servers, so you need not CC it to someone. The day my delivery date expired and I got no reply from 3 emails, I opened a case, and in a few hours, I got the money refunded and judgment to me. The seller's ID disappeared a few days later, too.

author: Rick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 07:30:31 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on January 12, 2013, 07:19:51 pmOk I understand , in the latter case the seller was not a good one.But those delivery dates are just estimates.Like I have a few items being shipped these days. They have been shipped a few days after the payments were made. So the date estimates for the delivery are no more valid. Normally I would wait till ebay warns me about opening a case (45 or 50 days?) if I have not received the item. Then I have 30 more days to escalate the case. Otherwise you are very likely to repeat my mistake and that will cause more trouble (having to pay again, more bank transfer and paypal fees etc.). Normally if a seller has sold 600 items with a 100% feedback that shows he is quite good. I wouldn't be that nervous. But some sellers are not good communicators (like the one I came across). He was out of the town all the time. He had access to internet through his mobile phone though. But he prefered not to communicate a lot. In the case of the OP, the seller seems to have shipped the item late but I am quite sure he will receive it. I am very eager to know the outcome of this story.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2013, 12:13:09 pm
content: yes but the dates are used for their arbitration, and the seller must abide by the date. If you do not receive item by the longest estimated date, even if the shipper has lost package in transit, you are entitled to a refund. If you wish to wait more, that is the buyers choice. If the package arrives after you get a refund, its again, the buyer's morals to repay the seller.Naturally, one can make allowances for shipment that is international and the buyer chooses some very economy shipper.http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/buyer-protection.htmlThere is a good faith dispute between you and the seller regarding the item. A good faith dispute can include cases such as:You did not receive the item in the estimated delivery time provided on the Order details page (or, if no estimated time was specified, 7 days after payment for items where the origin zip code and destination zip code of the item is within the U.S., or 10 days after payment for items where either or both the origin zip code and destination ZIP code of the item are not within the US). We may lengthen this period when necessary, for example, based on the type of shipping provided or the buyer's location.Quote from: Rick on January 12, 2013, 07:30:31 pm

author: Rick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2013, 02:02:18 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on January 13, 2013, 12:13:09 pmI see, but as a sign of good will, one can give up to 75 days to the seller to deliver the item, depending on the mode of shipment (shipping by sea for example takes much longer):35-40 days before you open a case then another 30 days before you escalate. In those cases you do not lose anything (you lose time may be...) but you will have given time to the seller to ship the item.

author: MetraCollector
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2013, 10:29:25 am
content: I searched for this instrument on eBay and was surprised of the low price yet, but then I read this topic and what a pittyhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Fluke-Philips-LCR-Meter-/140905504567?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20ce9f5f37

author: nixxon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2013, 08:14:57 pm
content: Quote from: MetraCollector on January 14, 2013, 10:29:25 amHey, that is the very same PM6303 that i bought December 22!I really don't care anymore, as I got my money back and have ordered an alternative unit, Mastech MS5308 -http://www.ebay.com/itm/380482359785. It cost me just below $200 incl. shipping and accessories. Probably a better overall deal than the PM6303.I don't mind if anyone wants to buy it, but some part of me hopes that the item goes for less than $89I wonder if the seller chooses to ship the item to the highest bidder this time?

author: 1980s_john
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2017, 11:46:12 pm
content: Hi,I also have just won one of these on eBay. When it arrived I was surprised how large a box it is, but this will make it easier to keep running in the future.I haven't used a true LCR meter before (I have a meter that can measure capacitance, inductance and resistance but I think the resistance ranges are DC not AC). Most small components measured as expected (I checked +/- 15V and made a minor adjustments, the front Cx setting was way off but I now get 0pF with nothing connected). However I am unsure about Cs/Cp readings for large electrolytic capacitors. Are these only measured properly with the Cs (2V bias) setting?For one 4700uF 10V capacitor and with manual setting of measurement I got:Cs= 5.56mFCp= 129uFRp=0.19 ohmRs=0.186 ohmDoes this look OK, ie can ignore the Cp reading as there is not enough DC bias?Maybe another PM6303 user can check their unit with a similar cap please.Regards,John