SONOS holding their users "hostage" - Cloud account now required - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 04:29:00 am
content: I get that technology moves quickly these days, but Sonos have pissed me off and quite frankly lost a customer.I bought some Sonos speakers years ago. They are great little units. However recent decisions by Sonos have basically made their user interface terrible to use and now, just to add speakers to your existing system, you must sign up for a Sonos account!There is no other way around this, even if you use your Sonos purely offline and listen to music from your own library, you still must sign in to your Sonos account.Their response:Thank you for writing back.I understand that you are unhappy with the data that we collect.We can delete all your data that we hold for your account but if we were to do this then you will not be able to use your Sonos products as having a registered account is now a requirement to use Sonos.Please let me know how you would like to proceed.Kind regards,Matthew P.Sonos | Customer Care | Contact UsSo basically "sign up for an account or fuck off". I care about my privacy and there is no reason why I need to login each time just to listen to my music. I don't own (or ever plan to own) any of their newer speakers with Alexa capabilities.I'm now looking for alternatives to replace my Sonos system if anyone has any suggestions?

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 06:09:10 am
content: I use Logitech Squeezeboxes of various types, with music held locally on my NAS, and the server running on a Raspberry Pi with MAX2PLAY.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 06:44:06 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 23, 2018, 06:30:56 amThey are network speakers which stream content either off your local network or off the internet from services like TuneIn Radio and Spotify. They can run either off Wi-Fi or ethernet connections and can be configured on the fly, so you can have music in any combination of rooms or pair two speakers together to form stereo pairs. You control them via your phone, tablet or desktop PC.Their sound quality is actually very good. Their smallest speakers (the Play:1) pack a surprising amount of punch and low-end frequency response for such a small unit. They are also water resistant so perfect in bathrooms for example.Their physical design is fantastic, the only complaint I have is that they don't support 5 GHz Wi-Fi networks. 2.4 GHz only.What lets Sonos down in a big way is their software. There is a new update out just about every month and they keep "fixing" things that aren't broken. Months ago they changed their UI on both Android and IOS for the worse. So many users complained about but they still refuse to do anything about it. They keep trying to tell users it's "better" when users keep trying to tell Sonos "It's not!".Now, they force you to register for an account just to be able to add speakers to your system. That was the last straw for me. They've clearly taken a page out of Apple's book and refuse to listen to their customers.I'm yet to take one apart to see if it can be easily re-flashed with a custom Linux system. If it's possible, I would love to scrap the Sonos ecosystem altogether and just run them as standalone network speakers.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 07:13:40 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 23, 2018, 06:44:06 amGiven the age of the system I doubt it's powerful enough. Probably easier to hijack the I2S DAC and class D amplifier with your own system, although you will need to be able to measure and correct for the speaker response if you want similar quality.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 07:34:45 am
content: Why not just create a throwaway email account, make up some data to screw with their marketing (female, 95, live in the Antarctic) and you're done.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 07:54:15 am
content: I have a Squeezebox Radio, though it hasn't been used in several years. I never had any problems with it. I just checked and my LMS account is still active.That Max2Play system looks interesting. My entire music collection is about 85GB, split roughly 70/30 between FLAC and MP3. I don't have all my disks converted to digital yet, but when all is done it should fit on a 250GB SSD with room to spare. I may have just found a use for that second Gigabyte Brix I bought several years back for no reason other than it was on sale

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 09:05:18 am
content: I have just read the Sonos Privacy Agreement. After seeing what data and personal information they collect and their reasons for why they need it, it is obvious that most of it could, and should, be optional and require opting in by default. This is not a company I would deal with.https://www.sonos.com/en-us/legal/privacyQuote from: SONOS Privacy StaementSomething smells.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 11:51:39 am
content: Quote from: rdl on June 23, 2018, 09:05:18 amThat's a smell of money.This is exactly what happens when a company gets greedy and realizes that there is a lot more margin and profit in selling your data than selling you hardware. Plus it is a nice recurrent income, unlike the hardware purchases.Pretty much the entire IoT market is built on this - the device itself is only a way to get you roped in into their walled garden where you have to buy their services while they get to mine your data. That's the only reason why we get idiotic stuff like internet enabled toothbrushes or padlocks. Not because it is actually useful to you, the customer, but because it opens an additional source of income for the manufacturer.It is pretty much the same thing as the current trend to move software licenses to subscriptions again.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 12:28:16 pm
content: It's a shame, they and Apple are the only ones who seem to know how to make a good speaker with high excursion woofers. Everything else crashes far faster at the low end. I hate Apple, though mostly not Apple products, I wish the market would give them more competition ...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 01:51:11 pm
content: A few months ago Sonos disabled the US$300 CR100 remote control because of the "old dangerous Li-Ion battery". Another entry for my do-not-buy list. BTW, Sonos violates the EU GDPR. If you're an EU customer file an official complain

author: Nauris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 02:18:02 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on June 23, 2018, 11:51:39 amNow imagine you have two million IoT toothbrushes deployed with each one using say 2 W of electricity to mine some bitcoin. Then you have in total 4 MW of free electricity and hardware customer paid for you can use to mine some bitcoin for yourself. Smells like a business to me. Or a nice side income if you have access to the firmware files to be programmed at factory.

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 02:30:10 pm
content: sounds like the FBI are gonna crawl so far up your ass your gonna sneeze paper for a year

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 02:41:04 pm
content: anyway, if you think about this, I don't see this different then a rogue Lord or such deciding to establish a toll castle some where. They found a narrow, once freely used, route (data stream) and decided to put some kind of requirement on using it (you probobly pay in market data, or further someones internal progress in the company (i.e. someone gets a promotion because they managed to get so many registrations on to some kind of database that the company was struggling to populate/department was struggling to justify))https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toll_castle"Many of the castles were"robber-baron" fortressesbuilt bypetty princesandtwo-bit rulersback when there were 350 independent little states in what is today's Germany. The castle owners raisedheavy chainsacross the river when boats came — andlowered them only when the merchants had paid their duty.https://www.ricksteves.com/watch-read-listen/read/articles/rhine-river-raging-with-historyI believe that this behavior lead to wars or at least forceful army lead demolitions of certain river towers and suchhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron_(feudalism)

author: taydin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 02:59:46 pm
content: Quote from: Nauris on June 23, 2018, 02:18:02 pmSounds plausible. For example, I am always wondering why Skype's executable is close to 100 MBytes. What the hell do they have to do with that 100 MBytes of code to just transfer text messages back and forth? UNLESS ... Skype is using all of those millions of computers as free processing power ... Maybe doing particle simulation, weather simulation, or whatever ... And with every software update, possible different simulation engines are included in it, depending on who the current contract customer is

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 03:02:50 pm
content: I think people too often underestimate the simplicity and "just works" qualities of stuff like having a RasPi (or other small computer) hooked up to an FTP or SMB share. My in home video streaming configuration works on exactly that. SMB share on my desktop computer, with all my videos. An SMB client on Android or my HTPC, and I can stream the videos directly from the share. Similar things can be done with FTP/SFTP/FTPSI understand the allure of, plug it in and it works, but if you have to not only spend money, but also security and freedom on that, it might just be work spending an extra couple hours to do the same thing using already established, and likely open source protocols, on cheap, off the shelf hardware that has about the same specs of the flashy in store boxed stuff anyways.Death to pre-packaged IoT.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 03:11:25 pm
content: Quote from: CopperCone on June 23, 2018, 02:30:10 pmDid you find a connection between nose and ass otherwise I do not get this statement.

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 03:14:08 pm
content: the paper work is going to enter your ass hole with enough velocity to pop out your nose and get through any kind of internal barriers

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 03:22:01 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 23, 2018, 01:51:11 pmI had forgotten about that pile of bullshit. Though if I owned one, you can bet I wouldn't have.

author: rbm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 03:28:38 pm
content: Sonos must comply with GDPR and if you feel that they are violating those regulations, you have every right to lodge a complaint with the EU. I believe that the EU commission responsible for enforcement of GDPR will not gloss over any consumer complaint, and there is reasonable assurance that they will investigate. Violation of GDPR carries with it heavy fines and penalties, even for non-EU based companies.

author: Gixy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 05:38:40 pm
content: Another example of the Customer care attitude of SONOS:Some months ago, they decided to no more support the controllers from which you could control the system. You should now use only you mobile, tablet, PC or Mac. People who have invested in a complete system with a controller in each room are very happy... You are obliged to make the software upgrades for the system to work, and the last one is not compatible with the controllers!I must add that they propose 125€ if you return your controller and buy something else, what I did and got a Play:1 for 50€, not so bad. But I miss my old controller which was always connected and ready to go, compared to my phone which takes 30s to get up, detect the speakers and let me control the system.I totally agree that SONOS is in the same state of mind than Apple: they decide by themselves what is good for you.

author: NottheDan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 06:23:43 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on June 23, 2018, 11:51:39 amAyup. That smells very much like the income from hardware sales is slipping and the shareholders are getting restless.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 07:23:37 pm
content: I see this being a major issue with the IoT -Devices which won't work at all without the manufacturer's permission.Avoid like plague.GDPR - The privacy law that requires you to accept tracking cookies or else be endlessly pestered by popups. I think I can figure out who devised this one.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 07:30:36 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on June 23, 2018, 12:28:16 pmI must admit that I was positively surprised by the sound of a pair of HomePods a friend got. That said, I don’t think you need to spend $700 to get that sound quality, and I just don’t understand the modern obsession (which said friend takes to the extreme) with wireless everything. Even though I have the skill to hunt down issues with wireless, i just don’t see the point: I like the reliability and compatibility of good old fashioned wires.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 09:10:41 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on June 23, 2018, 07:23:37 pmAll of the hipsters are like...But I but if you cut the internet cable to a hipster's "smart" house...it would be the equivalent of a blackout.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 02:56:16 am
content: Hack them, hack them wide open... there's no reason a set of wireless speakers should ever contact the Internet, unless they're receiving audio from there....and for those who work for companies like this and implement such restrictions, you are the ones who should think a little bit more about what your work is encouraging.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 04:41:00 am
content: My rules:1. Wired. Cut wireless anything to an absolute minimum. Then cut some more.2. F*ck the Cloud. All personal play and work data must be local and private. No exceptions.3. No subscription software/IOT services. None. This includes OSs, so excludes Win10.4. No 'auto-updates.' Disable them all, ditch anything that doesn't allow disabling auto-updates.5. If you have a choice between a thing that has a CPU, and something that doesn't, pick the latter.6. Any company that progressively reduces utility of their products, is your enemy. Boycott them absolutely and forever.(That includes Apple and Microsoft.)

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 06:36:17 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 24, 2018, 04:41:00 amMy rules follow along these lines however let me add...Wi-Fi can be secure, but forget about it using standard consumer gear. I do some work from home and use a mixture of both Ethernet and Wi-Fi. Among other things, my Wi-Fi network uses certificate and user name based RADIUS authentication, it's also protected against unauthorised de-auth attacks. I use that Wi-Fi network for anything classified as "Protected" and below. Anything above that goes over Ethernet and varying layers of encryption.I have a separate Wi-Fi network for "Unclassified" material, such as anything to do with my vintage computer collection or guest access.I also disagree with disabling automatic updates. I want to know the moment an update comes out for my infrastructure. I don't necessarily want it to install without me authorising it first, but I definitely want to be notified.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 08:03:05 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 24, 2018, 04:41:00 amSounds like the tune I've been playing for a while.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 08:49:47 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 24, 2018, 06:36:17 amFor me, it's only partially about security. More about time sinks, avoiding stupid complexity creep, and the general precautionary principle.When I do set something up, and it works, I want it to stay working just like that, effectively forever. Or until I decide to change it.I'm not a networking professional, and don't want to have to play at being one.Also my anti-WiFi bias is partially founded in a contrarian desire to live in as little RF noise as possible. Just in case increasing background RF level turns out to be medically a bad idea. (And there's an increasing body of evidence it is.)As for updates, you *cannot* know exactly what is in an update. Unless you can disassemble the code yourself and examine it instruction by instruction. See 'time sinks'.

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 09:27:40 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on June 23, 2018, 03:11:25 pmNice one

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 10:42:51 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on June 24, 2018, 08:03:05 amMy rule is quite simple: I own it and I have full control.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 11:23:44 am
content: According to GDPR (new privacy law in EU), if they have any EU customers, they will soon stop to exist as a company.GDPR explicitly states that they cannot deny you service if you deny them personal data. Also, demanding your data for you to be able to use hardware device you own, and that doesn't need any Internet or any other outside connection to perform it's work is excessive data collection and is punishable by itself..In addition to GDPR they are also violating several consumer protection laws in many countries...Hope they get sued big ...P.S. Wireless speakers that cannot work without internet connection.. Honestly ?

author: rbm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 02:22:39 pm
content: Agreed, 2N3055. The actual condition is explained well in this discussion thread:https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16874399QuoteIf you feel that you are being forced to give consent for the Sonos service that you otherwise would not prefer to give, then exercise your right to complain to the EU commission tasked with enforcing GDPR. Enough complaints should result in action.

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 03:46:03 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 24, 2018, 04:41:00 amI like auto updates for security because chances are if a company is spending money on patching it, someone figured out how to use it for no good and its on all the script kiddy forums and shit, so you minimize exposure. Criminals are super lazy.if you talk to security professionals, most will advise you that its good to run the updates, it goes from 'i need to figure out some kind of exploit, i kinda know what to do but I need to engineer a solution' vs 'some one wrote a nice script for me on a forum I just have to run'. Most criminals want to make a career that's less work and more money then the alternative (honest work), so you figure out which target they will choose.I have known a few, they are fucking disgracefully lazy, drug users, drinkers, etc most of the time.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 04:41:53 pm
content: If it's Windows updates causing the problem, they come out on a regular schedule so you can just shut down the service until it's needed. Set it to check for updates, but not download or install them. You might also look into something called WSUS Offline to replace the built in Windows Update service. I have it and it looks interesting, but I haven't really had time to actually try it.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 05:27:35 pm
content: Maybe it is time to give Donald Duck another account.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 11:30:43 am
content: Could those internet connected speakers be used as microphones?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 11:33:55 am
content: Quote from: Tepe on June 25, 2018, 11:30:43 amThe Play:1 and the Play:3, no, they don't contain microphones. The Play:5 and the new Sonos One however do. So yes, they have the potential to be used as listening devices.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 11:59:37 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 25, 2018, 11:33:55 amI also meant using the speakers as microphones... (the other meaning of speaker - the component)

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 12:31:19 pm
content: Yes, they definitely could also function as microphones. The newer models include a separate microphone because SONOS has this idea that they can compete with Google Voice and Amazon Echo and Alexa.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 10:27:04 am
content: I can't help wondering if maybe Sonos is owned by Soros.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 10:49:23 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 23, 2018, 06:30:56 amIf they haven't already I think they're either going to launch a subscription based streaming music service or partner up with one, it makes sense from a business point of view if your 'core' revenue is from an internet enabled sound system.It doesn't make sense to force your customers to sign up or throw your products away though, I like the idea of being able to hack their spoeakers for my own purposes though, I suspect there'll be a few kicking around for low cost...

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 09:13:57 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 23, 2018, 06:44:06 amWell, simply googling for "sonos github" finds already a bunch of interesting projects of all kinds, so if it's possible, I'm quite convinced somebody must have already walked the extra mile to flash Linux to it.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 02:12:19 am
content: Quote from: bitwelder on June 26, 2018, 09:13:57 pmI wouldn't think it would be too hard. It already runs Linux of some kind. According to iFixit, the Play:3 (the middle sized unit) contains 512MB RAM and a 266MHz PowerQUICC CPU. The trickiest part will probably be flashing the device itself, it looks like there are no other ports other than Ethernet.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 02:26:50 am
content: Quote from: CJay on June 26, 2018, 10:49:23 amOh, great, Yet Another Fucking Music Streaming Service. The thing is, with whom would they partner? The only player that makes sense would be Spotify, which doesn't have a piece of hardware already. (Does Pandora still exist?)Content providers have Yet Another Service with which to negotiate terms.Customers have Yet Another App with which to deal. And what happens if Sonos gets really greedy and somehow precludes using anything but their partner streaming services with their product?Their problem is that they're not happy just selling hardware, especially the sort of hardware that basically needs to never be replaced. Customers buy one or two Sonos speakers, set them up, and that's that. A one-time transaction per customer. So they are looking at creating revenue streams out of thin air. What could possibly go wrong?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 02:50:11 am
content: Quote from: 3db on June 24, 2018, 09:27:40 amThere are two possibilities here. The first is the alimentary canal; the second is commonly referred to as "brown nosing".The alimentary canal interpretation perfectly fits the topography required for this saying to carry meaning.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 03:09:57 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on June 27, 2018, 02:50:11 amYou'll have one after they're done with you. It'll be their "spy hole".