more money then brains: audiophoolery - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: subolg123
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 08:33:37 pm
content: http://bybeetech.com/?page_id=2

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 08:37:35 pm
content: Quantum purifiers? What are they supposed to do?

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 08:40:37 pm
content: Nice header image. Love the jpeg compression and stretched aspect ratio.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 08:50:42 pm
content: A power strip for just $5495.

author: rexxar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 08:51:14 pm
content: "Holographic power supply"

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 09:00:47 pm
content: In a totally sad world the guy believes everything he posted in an equally sad world it's a complete scam and makes money off it.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 09:22:24 pm
content: First, you have tears in your eyes laughing about these ridiculous claims based on ridiculous pseudo-theories.Then, if you see somebody buying that stuff, you have tears in your eyes full of sadness, and all hope lost you once had for mankind....now back again to the other problems of the 1st world.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 09:24:08 pm
content: Quote from: steve30 on April 07, 2014, 08:37:35 pmUhh... Purifiying quantums, i suppose. Guess that makes the coffee taste better...

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 09:24:37 pm
content: Quote from: steve30 on April 07, 2014, 08:37:35 pmThey purify your quanta, obviously.Duh.For those all too common cases where you have a quantum, but it starts to drift into the real numbers...Quote...as utter crap?

author: dexters_lab
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 09:26:33 pm
content: madnessi dont know if the people behind these types of product are frauds or just genuinely deluded

author: FrankenPC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 09:37:09 pm
content: Quote from: dexters_lab on April 07, 2014, 09:26:33 pmFrauds

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 09:37:44 pm
content: Quote from: dexters_lab on April 07, 2014, 09:26:33 pmDeluded fraudsters.

author: FrankenPC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 09:38:28 pm
content: At first I was like: I can't believe this bullshit is legal!!! RAWWWRR!!Then I realized that would make stupidity illegal.Caveat Emptor.

author: kc9qvl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 09:49:14 pm
content: From their FAQ.Quote

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 09:52:13 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on April 07, 2014, 09:24:37 pmYeah, and totally not a bog standard milspec resistor or capacitor with some black heatshink over it.A fool and his money and all that, honestly people with more money than brains deserve to be ripped off for not seeing past this. The disturbing part is how many companies around the world stock these guy's 'products'.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 09:52:39 pm
content: Quantum noise, eh? Hm, micro, nano, pico... What's below a picovolt? Drop a few orders of magnitude below that and maybe we might possibly see some quantum noise. I'd like to see how that effects your soundstage...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 10:01:46 pm
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on April 07, 2014, 09:52:39 pmFemto, atto, zepto, yocto, ...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 10:03:52 pm
content: Aren't those "quantum" fuses with a heatshrink on them?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 10:12:26 pm
content: Wouldn't the quantum purifiers be defeated by the Johnson noise? Remember, the quantum purifiers convert the quantum noise into heat.

author: rexxar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 11:02:46 pm
content: Quote from: madires on April 07, 2014, 10:12:26 pmI hope the leads are pure copper, who knows what the Seebeck effect would do to the purity of your audio colors!!!

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 11:24:56 pm
content: If anyone feels like having their IQ assaulted by a herd of hapless morons, head over to the Audiogon Cables forum!http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1&ctg&0&50&Fun reading for the whole family...

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 12:51:48 am
content: There are a couple topics about that in diyaudio, one of them as more than 5000 pages, and there are people that believe what that guy claims, and yeah, used in submarine sonar systems..

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 01:31:05 am
content: Quote from: subolg123 on April 07, 2014, 10:57:37 pm"say the secret word and the duck will fly down and increase your dynamic range."

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 07:36:44 am
content: Beautiful, you can never prove they don't work. As they are a quantum purifier as soon as you try to measure anything all is altered.

author: andtfoot
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 08:30:08 am
content: Yep, quite well known about on DIYAudio.From memory, one of the guys there pulled apart a variant and it turned out to be something like 0.1R resistor covered in fluff. Also measured it to be the same as a resistor.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 09:33:28 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 07, 2014, 11:24:56 pm

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 03:34:52 pm
content: people arent taken in by this crap are they?

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 07:37:09 pm
content: Golden Goddess ‘Super Effect’ Speaker Bullets....sounds like something this thing fires

author: rexxar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 09:06:48 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 07, 2014, 11:24:56 pmThey talk on there about how engineers are wrong, regardless of their decades of experience. Because their perfect, infallible hearing can discern the difference it makes when your power cable is put in a different position.One person was talking about how increased capacitance in your power cable makes it sound better because it can supply "transient demands". Apparently the few pF in your power cable is more significant than the hundreds of uF in your power supply.How can a person possibly so willfully ignorant and deluded? I really don't get it. It's demonstrably, conclusively proven that it's all bullshit, but there's just no possible way what they hear is pure placebo effect.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 09:16:32 pm
content: Quote from: rexxar on April 08, 2014, 09:06:48 pmBecause if you bullshit enough you can make it sound borderline believable. For instance - the reason the cable capacitance helps beyond the power supply capacitance could be that it is distributed with the line inductance, forming an LC low pass filter to remove fast transient spikes that might not be absorbed in the power supply due to ESL.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 09:17:45 pm
content: Like a religious argument, it's structured so it is not possible to prove it either way.- Engineers & test equipment are wrong - they are either deluded or "in" on the conspiracy (??)- It takes time to break in a cable/equipment/component in, so changes can't be remembered. Auditory memory <15min.- No form of blind testing is done; A-B comparison with A and B both known at any one time.- Only the people with the golden ear can tell the difference; don't dare let an independent choose! You say you can't hear the difference? Pfft, it's obvious!You can't win, and shouldn't try. If someone has $5k to blow on a pretty gold plated power cable, it's their prerogative, and their money... I tried arguing with an audiophile once. Every argument was met with one of the above points. Nothing can convince a truly deluded person.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 09:19:07 pm
content: It's a form of religion.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 10:44:42 pm
content: I had found a great one yesterday - I can't find it again at the moment. But it was an explanation regarding high quality digital cables. The question was "but isn't it just ones and zeroes? So why would I need a high-zoot cable for that?"The explanation was that - unbeknownst to the casual layman, those "ones and zeroes" were known as a square wave... and square waves are made up of huge numbers (sometimes almost infinite!) of sine waves... and sine waves very much DO benefit from high-zoot cables, so the key to getting a good square wave - meaning a good string of 1's and 0's, was to use a high-zoot cable for good sine waves which also means good square waves.I just imagined someone remembering something about Fourier analysis from college and coming up with a really really tenuous explanation for why it means digital cables must be high quality = expensive.I almost feel bad for the people buying such stuff, but they are just of low intellect... but choose to remain ignorant, so let them get fleeced, and I'll just laugh at it

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2014, 12:13:13 am
content: digital cables matter when the transport is 'weak'. spdif is a 'weak' transport because timing+data are combined and the jitter can change due to cables, connectors, impedance/reflection problems and even pcb layout problems.the importance of jitter is all about getting the sample value 'squirted out' at exactly the right point in time. since timing is part of the spdif stream, if the timing is wrong then the x-location (or time location) where the sample is put is wrong and the wave gets distorted.the modern way around this is to reclock and make the timing that leads up to the buffering mostly irrelevant. if you have sufficient reclocking at the receive side and you have a good stable clock, jitter stops becoming a problem and the cable now doesn't matter at all. it really depends on how the receiver chip can reject noise and reflections, and if it is not falsely triggered on where the bit starts, then the transport won't matter in that case.now, whether the small amount of jitter hurts the sound enough to CARE, that's another discussion entirelybut technically, if you are using a transport (wire and protocol) that cares about timing, the wire will matter. if your architecture does smart things like reclocking, the wire starts to not matter at all.

author: FrankenPC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2014, 12:18:20 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 07, 2014, 11:24:56 pmI couldn't get past the pathetic forum software.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2014, 12:23:23 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 07, 2014, 11:24:56 pmQuoteI'm shocked.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2014, 03:37:39 pm
content: Testimonials and reviews are even worse...http://bybeetech.com/?page_id=23

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2014, 04:12:34 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 07, 2014, 11:24:56 pmAnd don't miss the cable selling section:http://app.audiogon.com/categories/cablesFirst entry: a 0.75m XLR cable, with a serial number and flow direction indicator, for a bargain price, just $1,240. I'm sure it is much better than a professional $10 Neutrik studio cable, but only if you connect it in the right direction

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2014, 04:36:08 pm
content: high end (or rather, high priced) audio is a lot like religion. you can't tell if the person really believes their BS or if they are just knowingly trying to fleece you. if they have a business interest, you can't ever know, either!

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2014, 04:41:49 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on April 09, 2014, 04:36:08 pmIt is a religion, and just as hard to deal with. When is comes to the Ministers and preachers (sellers) all are out for cash even if they "believe".

author: Jarrod Roberson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2014, 05:18:42 pm
content: I just post the following video where Ethan Winer and other experts demonstrate that listening is by definition subjective and flawed.Great video by very smart people! I keep it bookmarked so I can just share it and be done, no arguing with those that can't comprehend the argument, they operate on a "belief" system so they can choose to believe or not to believe, but the science proves the facts.

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2014, 06:09:17 pm
content: Quote from: FrankBuss on April 09, 2014, 04:12:34 pmI particularly like the $5,588.00 and $7,888.00 'ex-demo' cables. Just in case you can't afford to buy new.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2014, 06:20:20 pm
content: its such a bad idea to buy used cables.there's usually still sound remnants left in them and it may not mix well with your current musical taste.(LOL!)

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2014, 06:24:26 pm
content: Quote from: linux-worksNo, surely it's agoodidea as we all know speaker cables need to be "run in" and someone else will have got them all nice and mellow for you.In fact I think that they should chargemorefor a used cable than a new one because of this.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2014, 06:40:34 pm
content: http://app.audiogon.com/listings/interconnects-silent-source-the-music-reference-rca-1-2-meter-pair-2014-04-05-cables-27407Asking Price: $1,800.00Retail Price: $4,595.00What a discount for 2 used RCA cables. For me they seem as cable with junk connectors put into a cheap sleeve. Not even a gold plated.Edit: I was wrong: Uses special solid core silver, cotton insulated (no Teflon) with a unique twist.So they are hygroscopic...

author: Jarrod Roberson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2014, 07:02:44 pm
content: The only positive thing about this "audiophile" ignorance is it is incestuous in nature, they are only hurting each other as normal people don't buy into the stupidity for various reasons that aren't always related to science. They are taking each others money, fleecing the willing so to say. Hey if they think a $3000 wooden volume knob makes their musical experience better more power to them, but they are science deniers, and as such, I don't even waste my time on them anymore.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 01:25:30 am
content: This is the best ad ever!http://app.audiogon.com/listings/speaker-aural-thrills-audio-active-speaker-cable-read-the-reviews-2014-04-07-cables-75042Some crappy wire, Radio Shack screw-on banana connectors and a Radio Shack plastic enclosure with a 9V battery in it - and a shitty heatshrink job, but it's only $399!But the best part is that the 9V battery charges up the shielding creating an "electric fence" which keeps any outside interference away.Bargain of the century, surely.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 01:38:45 am
content: I guess many of us have been in the wrong business all this time, aren't we ?

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 01:39:08 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 10, 2014, 01:25:30 am, I am next to speechless, that is unbelieveable.I would really like to know how many of those have been sold.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 01:45:41 am
content: at a 'burning amp' audio DIY show a year or two ago, someone was giving away small metal boxes with rca females on one and, a cable coming out the other and a male rca on that. inside the box was a cap and a battery and maybe some other small parts. yup, they were 'charging up the cables' and running a dc bias on the cable with caps blocking the dc at both sides, iirc.people were pissed off to even see those. people too them for spare parts and I took some to steal the rca jacks off of them. not sure who made them but its been done before. 'biasing the wires'. sigh ;(

author: Kryoclasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 05:34:27 am
content: a simple iron ferrite do would way more to shield rfi/emi than that insane stooopidity.

author: Kryoclasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 05:45:03 am
content: Here is an interesting one...Odin Supreme Reference InterconnectAsking Price: $7,650.00New Retail Price: $15,999.00http://app.audiogon.com/listings/interconnects-nordost-odin-supreme-reference-interconnect-1m-xlr-2014-04-07-cables-85254-scottsdale-azAnd it is "used".He must have realized that he is out 16 large, for a $30 cable

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 07:14:24 am
content: QuoteI wonder whether this is a mis-interpreted and mis-applied version of running an active shield to reduce the effect of cable capacitance on low-voltage high-impedance signal sources?I also wonder how many people come to check the battery and find it's been flat for months but they'd not noticedI'll bet the battery life is pretty long though!!

author: mimmus78
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 07:29:21 am
content: Wondering if this audio cable ages like voltage references? Used one should be better than new one, I think you can "feel drifting" when using a new cable.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 11:23:04 am
content: QuoteProbably - you should send your really high end cable to the factory once per year for a quantum harmonic gobbledygook cleansing, for a special low price of 299$ + shipping per cable!

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 12:01:57 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on April 10, 2014, 07:14:24 amThey will suddenly remember that the sound hadn't been as "full" for a while, and they finally figured out why.Never underestimate the human capacity for self-delusion.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 12:05:30 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on April 09, 2014, 06:20:20 pmExacltly what I described with electrolitic capacitors on the 1. of april!http://nandblog.com/electrolytic-capacitors-audio/QuoteQuote

author: PaulAm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 12:21:08 pm
content: Wow, reading that (the full article) made my head hurt

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2014, 03:11:56 pm
content: Quote from: PaulAm on April 10, 2014, 12:21:08 pm+1. So you also made the mistake of reading the whole thing.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2014, 04:58:00 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on April 11, 2014, 03:11:56 pmAt which point did you realize it is full of bullshit?

author: HP-ILnerd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2014, 02:59:26 am
content: Here's an interesting device:http://www.lessloss.com/page.html?id=283000 Euro worth of interesting, in fact. I note, in part because of Dave's LCD monitor repair videos, their claim that "Only top quality parts are used throughout the DAC 2004."Then notice in their pictures, they show CapXon electrolytics all over the place.It's not as "magical" as some of the other crap they sell--maybe whythey don't make this thing anymore, but still...

author: Jarrod Roberson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2014, 04:56:52 am
content: The LessLoss high performance digital cable is for 75 Ohm coaxial S/PDIF connections (also available in a 110 Ohm version for AES/EBU signals with XLR connectors). It features advanced shielding and a reflection-attenuation network. These work together to prevent the losses caused by high-frequency induction and high-frequency reflection within a cable. This allows depth, detail, and clarity to be presented in a way that allows digital audio to sound more laminar than ever.$695 for 1 meter of cable!What does "more laminar" even mean, and these are for DIGITAL signals!Ignorance should be more painful.

author: xwarp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2014, 02:47:51 pm
content: WOW.....Never knew there was "burn in" time on interconnects, BUT THEN felt pretty dumb to see that they can be directional....

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2014, 10:57:32 am
content: Quote from: xwarp on April 16, 2014, 02:47:51 pm

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2014, 11:22:00 am
content: Oh god, reading what that audio idiots believes, I feel a Engineer with a huge knowledge.

author: xwarp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2014, 12:11:48 pm
content: Quote from: ConKbot on April 17, 2014, 10:57:32 amJust to clarify, I am speaking of the idea that some believe that there are wires that will only transmit electrons in one direction, NOT the direction of multiple wires that make up a cable and how the wires are terminated and routed into the ending connector.On a side note, if there is a "burn in" time for wire, then that would mean there is a life span.......right?

author: rexxar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2014, 02:37:44 pm
content: Quote from: xwarp on April 17, 2014, 12:11:48 pmThat's an interesting thought. I wonder if audiophool cables expire?I know, I'll start selling runtime meters for your cables and tell all about how the electrons in your cable degrade after so many hours and you should either get new cables, or use my super fancy and super expensive electron rejuvinator device

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2014, 02:42:44 pm
content: they don't wear out, but the electrons inside the cable do get tired from always spinning the same way. I've found that every 2 yrs is a good time frame to send them to the lower hemisphere for about a week, for re-break-in, in order to reverse the electron spin and reduce the wear on the electron axis.LOL

author: xwarp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 01:53:02 am
content: So a coworker and I were discussing where these people get virgin never charged copper from.And how do you test it? I suppose with test equipment made from the same virgin copper that has not ever been turned on?Maybe they examine one electron before they send it down the wire and then examine it when it comes out at the end for dents and scratches?

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 03:02:45 am
content: I recently stated that tubes really don't sound much better than solid state, and that a good, solid amp should do just fine. Damn, the hate I got. Should we introduce fiber optics to the audiophools? I shall put a cheap digikey LED in an enclosure and sell it as a fiber optic tester that "Guarantees ranfom photon spin, which reduces the distortion and thus opens up the soundstage for greater depth and clarity."

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 03:41:29 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on April 17, 2014, 02:42:44 pmAs someone who resides in the 'lower' hemisphere, where the electricity travels the opposite way (i.e. correct way) to the direction it travels 'up north', I'd like to offer my services in rejuvenating your tired audio cables. $100/metre (or part thereof) for two weeks of 'reverse electron spin' . Shipping not included.Moderators should feel free to move this to the Buy/Sell/Wanted forum or the newly created 'There's one born every minute' forum.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 03:53:49 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on April 17, 2014, 02:42:44 pmAllow me to offer EEVBlog members my services, which include:Laminar-spatial correction1to ensure ongoing consistent electron flowHigh-energy photonic rejuvenation2to increase atomic motilityExposure to a high-ionic environment3to replenish worn, tired, or missing electronsAll undertaken on a bed of the finest high-carbon calcium compound interspersed with natural micro-crystalline silicon structures4, where a strictly-controlled environmentally-friendly continuous process of extracting energy from common organic contaminants5is operated in a contra-magnetic environment6.P.O.A.; depends on cable length and type (e.g. due to their important position at the very input of the system, power chords and interconnects will typically require longer exposures than speaker cables). Surcharge applies to owners of Monster Cables, as these are constructed to higher walletry requirements. Shipping bothways is at owner's expense.1I straighten & untangle your cables ...2While sitting in the sun ...3,4On the beach ...5Drinking margharitas.6Only applicable to cables shipped from and intended for the northern hemisphere.

author: xwarp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 04:00:09 am
content: I will attest that in my own experience, if the only thing that was changed in a system was the amp, for example, a Crown D-150 and a Magnavox 6v6 pp config, there is a difference in sound if all else remains the same.Tube amps do sound different, but it certainly due to electrical characteristics being different, i.e. slew rates of tubes versus solid state transistors.It boils down to personal preference and no one person has the same exact tastes as anyone else, but this stuff about cables and what not is unbelievable......Quote from: echen1024 on April 18, 2014, 03:02:45 am

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 04:46:29 am
content: Aw come on, you gotta put some effort into it and use words like quantum and the heisenburg uncertainty priciple. On an interesting note, I am now thinking that getting a 1000% mark up on something you paid $20 for is an excellent way to get a fool to part with his money.

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 07:11:57 am
content: Quote from: xwarp on April 16, 2014, 02:47:51 pmFor the German speaking readers:http://heise.de/-2157959(Google translate to English)

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 10:22:45 am
content: Quote from: GeoffS on April 18, 2014, 03:41:29 amas long as you do it on a proper ESD mat (electron spin detector) then that's fine.

author: KarlosVandango
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 12:01:23 pm
content: If you want to hear complete and total bullshit, go talk to a BOSE salesperson/rep... Jesus... Made the mistake of walking past one in my local electrical retailer...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 01:01:26 pm
content: Quote from: FrankBuss on April 18, 2014, 07:11:57 amDon't you reverse all your audio cables every week?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 01:13:11 pm
content: Quote from: KarlosVandango on April 18, 2014, 12:01:23 pmIs BOSE joining the audiophoolery market now?

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 04:27:27 pm
content: Quote from: madires on April 18, 2014, 01:13:11 pmHuh? They are a Founding Member Emeritus!

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 04:52:20 pm
content: Quote from: madires on April 18, 2014, 01:01:26 pmI stopped running AC based audio and now run only DC based signalling on my cables.the only down-side is that the freq response is not very high. but the bass is amazing!

author: FrankenPC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 04:53:26 pm
content: This is one I've never seen before. But then again, I don't follow audiophoolery.http://www.ebay.com/itm/11-2896Mhz-Rubidium-Master-clock-for-CD-made-by-FEI-/170352897811?pt=US_CD_Players_Recorders&hash=item27a9d2ef13... Because a standard TCXO just isn't good enough to drive your CD player's DAC.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 05:10:39 pm
content: long-term freq stability obviously means nothing for audio use.short-term does matter. Rb has reasonable short-term stability but I agree that an oven oscillator is probably the smarter choice.picosecond jitter does actually matter on digital audio, though. not so much on spdif but once spdif is decoded to i2s (clock clock clock and data) one of the clocks does actually become a critical point in the digital to analog conversion.not that I'm defending the Rb box for audio, though

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 05:35:56 pm
content: Rubidium clock is the very definition of audiophoolery.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 05:42:20 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on April 18, 2014, 05:35:56 pmactually, its not as bad as some may think it to be. it costs, what, $150 for the box? that's not a huge amount to spend for a very low jitter clock, compared to the 50 cent clock that most dac's end up using.and as I said before, timing on the i2s lines does matter down to the picosecond range and this is not disputable, its understood by every audio engineer who designs with dac chips.its overkill but not to the level of '$500 power cords'. the power cords are pure insanity. the Rb clock is, at least, a response to a real issue in dac circuitry.do you dispute that having a very accurate and low jitter/phase noise master clock is a good thing in digital audio?

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 05:53:17 pm
content: The phoolery is the concept that you need a Rubidium (Ohhh! What High Tech! Must be "better") reference for your otherwise ordinary VXCO/PLL clock. Jitter is a completely independent parameter that has nothing to do with the frequency accuracy of the clock.Do you think those digits you are converting back into audio were created using a Rubidium standard? If not, then exactly what "benefit" is there from using a Rubidium playback clock reference? Other than audiophoolery bragging rights. Which impress only those who also don't understand the underlying technology.

author: FrankenPC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 05:56:43 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on April 18, 2014, 05:53:17 pmHey...an audiophile understands the importance of reproducing the original error...error free

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 05:59:26 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on April 18, 2014, 05:53:17 pmOh, notthisagain...Do you really find farfetched the idea of minimizing error by using higher quality equipment at one point in a chain than another? Surely, if you were to calibrate a 0.01% multimeter, you'd use somethingbetterthan that as a reference? This is what they're trying to do: avoid introducingadditionalerror. They want to reproduce the sound as close as possible to what the musician recorded, listened to and liked.Is it overkill? Yes. But it doesn't mean they're idiots.$500 power cables mean that...

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 06:03:18 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on April 18, 2014, 05:59:26 pm

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 06:09:18 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on April 18, 2014, 05:53:17 pmit seems you ONLY want to joke around and not be serious. I like to do both, when the right behavior is called for.$500 power cords are a joke.high precision (more important than abs. accuracy) clocks in i2s DOES have a reasonable place in engineering.you may not understand it; not everyone is versed in all areas of electronics design but you come off looking like a child when you make fun of things that actually do matter.clock quality for i2s does matter. probably more than anything else in the digital audio end-to-end comms path. its what determines (after reclocking) WHEN the sample gets put out on the analog-out wire. a little before or a little after distorts the wave. this is not up for debate, its simply how i2s and dacs work.there are tons of things to make fun of for audio fools. a clean stable i2s clock is not one of them.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 06:18:44 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on April 18, 2014, 06:09:18 pmExactly. But playing back commodity audio CDs on your super-duper hi-fi system is not an "engineering" application.I reserve the right to continue to believe that "overkill" is silly.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 09:18:11 pm
content: well, ignorance is bliss, they say...if you think all 'strange ideas' are BS, you will miss the real ones. baby and bathwater, as the saying goes. the trick is to know which is BS and which is real.clocking on digital audio is real. power cords are BS.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 09:52:38 pm
content: And blindly believing that "more is better" is BS as well.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2014, 11:02:04 pm
content: would it not depend on what the quantity is?more precision in timing is never a bad thing. you can argue about whether a price point is cost effective for the percent increase in measured results, but more precise timing is never a bad thing.we might agree that having 'just enough' timing accuracy is the design goal; but what might be good enough for one person may not be for another. there's a point where humans may stop noticing the increase in sound clarity and only test gear can. the stop-point is probably before that, for most of us; but I don't see anything wrong with the pursuit of extreme accuracy when it comes to D/A timing. many of us have extreme T/M gear at home and who, here, is going to make fun of -that- pursuit of over-kill? for example, its probably over-kill for me to own a 6.5 digit dmm, but its not beyond my price point and I enjoy having high-end test gear so I do own one.tl;dr: please stop confusing fake stuff like 'power cords' with dac precision clocks.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2014, 11:43:08 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on April 18, 2014, 11:02:04 pmTake one step back. How does sound go to your ears? It goes through a microphone (for real music at least), a recording studio, a storage medium, your stuff.By the time you get it, it will already have some jitter and other error added to it. You only have control over your equipment, and you cannot decrease the error to zero. The studio doesn't have a rubidium standard, and 500 dollar a meter cables, well, because it would be painfully expensive to have 100 meter of cables of that. Let's say, the 500 dollar a mater cable is better (not necessarily). Even if you use that, the error is already there in the studio*. So is there a point using these? Not really. If you use 10 times better cable, reference clock, or amp than the studio, you can decrease the error only by 40%, that is a real small advantage, hardly justified. 100 times better gear is just 49% and so on. Is it better? Yes. Is it worth it? Hardly.*not to mention the guy sitting in the studio, winning the loudness war. Sometimes I hear recordings made painfully stupid, even for classical music.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2014, 12:45:16 pm
content: Sound is something everyone experiences in his own way. There is the objective part which we can measure, even beyond what we could hear. And there is the subjective part incl. psychological effects. A EUR 100 micro stereo might sound better than a EUR 10k stereo with much better specs. It just depends on the preferences of the listener. But there are also some people going religious with their stereo and buying directional mains wire for US$1000. They are poor souls. Don't be too hard on them, they need professional help.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2014, 10:08:05 pm
content: QuoteThe problem is that there's a similar (obsessive, compulsive, OTT perfectionist) mindset between the Rb timenuts and the audiophools so there's bound to be some crossover. eg the daft reasoning/justification for the use of an Rb standard for audio playback is a classic example.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2014, 10:49:28 pm
content: It would perhaps be interesting to see just how crap the Rb reference would be as a clock for a decent DAC. The spec for the FE5680A Rb standard in the ebay ad has -60dBc spurious. It also takes about 5 minutes to warm up and lock up. It has 10-12W runtime power consumption as well... Ouch...I believe they use a programmable DDS to generate the clock frequency from a master reference up at about 50MHz that is controlled by Rb. So that means finite accuracy in terms of DDS tuning resolution and also lots of close to carrier spurious terms from the DDS that will appear on the clock output. Obviously, these spurious aren't shown in the ebay advert

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2014, 12:34:45 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on April 18, 2014, 05:59:26 pmIf you buy one of those Rubidium standards and fudge it into your CD player, expecting the sound to improve along the lines of the subjective claims, then you are at best ill informed.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2014, 12:37:12 am
content: Quote from: GK on April 20, 2014, 12:34:45 amOh, absolutely, ill informed. But you're not completely barking up the wrong tree either - at least you're trying improve something thatcouldactually make a difference, even if you've no cluehow

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2014, 08:59:44 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on April 18, 2014, 06:09:18 pmI fail to see how picosecond jitter is going to effect audio in any audible (or measurable) way.Audio signals are rolled off at around 20KHz, the DAC will not be able to reproduce any components above that,so any amplitude effects will not be heard.The human ear is not sensitive to very small phase errors,either,even if they survived the DAC & succeeding analog circuitry,

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2014, 10:53:03 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 20, 2014, 08:59:44 amBack in the Bad Old Days (decades ago) there were apparetly some sloppy digital designs that had such poor decoding algorithms, they were actually sensitive to bit jitter which would make audible artifacts in the reproduced signal. If anyone is still making such sloppy stuff, I don't know why Golden Ears are still hanging on to such garbage, but they have generalized this into believing the the micro-timing of the bit pattern somehow ALWAYS produces changes in the reproduced waveform. I have never seen a credible explanation of how they think this works. Apparently, we just have to take their word for it. This is one of the basis for the topic of this thread.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 20, 2014, 11:16:19 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on April 20, 2014, 10:53:03 amPicoseconds level jitter on the I2S bus of the 24 bit delta-sigma DAC can easily make output level variation of some LSB between samples. Absolute clock accuracy is not needed but there must not be significant timing variations between samples. Basically jitter on the I2S bus produces noise on the output of the DAC. Maybe (likely) you won't hear this but it reduces signal quality.http://www.maximintegrated.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/5477

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2014, 11:34:19 am
content: Quote from: wraper on April 20, 2014, 11:16:19 ama.k.a. "Dither". Or simply "background noise". There are few places on this planet that are free of at least 2 or even 3 bits of LSB ambient noise, especially at 24 bits! Those of us who do loacation recording at 24 bits almost never encounter such slience out of well-built sound studios. For that matter few microphones or preamps are that quiet, either.QuoteIt isn't Rocket Surgery to design a decent low-jitter clock. But Audiophools have blown this up into an absolute obsession. The Rubidium Clock craze is an excellent example.