Mentor PADS Maker and Maker Pro - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 05:27:45 pm
content: HiDigikey just sent me an announcement about Mentor PADS Maker Edition. It's free and will let you go up to 1,500 connections on the schematic. Layout is limited to 25 square inches and 6 layers (4 with signals). The "Pro" version is $499 and it eliminates the connection restriction. It takes you up to 50 square inches and 8 layers (6 with signals). The $499 gets you a "perpetual" license and 1 year of support. The license includes "minor upgrades". The "free" version is technically a one year license. You are stuck if they discontinue the free tier a year from now. Is free a come on to get you to move up to the $499 Pro a year from now? Only time will tell. I'd bet not, but I've been wrong a lot of times before.The software you get is NOT the full blown PADS. It does not include auto routing (which I hate). It does include schematic, BOM, and simulation. It also ties into the Digikey empire for parts symbols and information. Without sitting down with a full license version and the free version, I suspect it will be a bit tough to really know what you do or do not get in the Maker versions. I doubt that auto routing is the only thing they took out. So far the free one seems to offer a lot of bang for the buck. It will depend on just how they count the 1,500 connection limit (do redundant via's count (hopefully not)....do wires connect at both ends (probably) ....). As long as they are not stupid about it you should be able to get a couple BGA's on a board.Off to dive into it. Fell free to chime in with "thoughts". I'm sure there will be a wide variety of opinions !!! I have no connection with either Digikey or Mentor other than as a customer. I've been pretty happy with Digikey over the years and have sort of a love / hate relation with Mentor's PCB layout products.Bob

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 11:33:17 pm
content: This from the other thread comments...You can import schematics and symbols from a third party tool. Files can be imported from the following software versions:Altium Protel 99, DXP, 2004, 2006, AD6P-CAD 200xCADStar V5–V9OrCAD 7.2–16.6Eagle 6.0 or greaterandYou can import PCB files from third party tools by using the Import Translator (File > Import, then select the relevant software) in PADS Maker Layout. Files can be imported from the following software versions:Altium Protel 99, DXP, 2004, 2006, AD6P-CAD 200xCADStar V5–V9OrCAD Board Files 7.2–16.2{ no mention of eagle PCB paths yet ?}Update: Another page has this detail..Someone in Mentor has messed up and their statements contradict, and cannot both be true.Their wiki has this confused/mangled English quotehttps://eewiki.net/display/MentorGraphicsDocumentation/PADS+Maker+FAQ#"What happens when my license subscription runs out?Student and Maker versions run out after 1 year. You may go back to Digi-Key to purchase the Maker Pro license (http://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=mentor%20graphics). Check back with Digi-Key and Mentor Graphics to see if licenses are available."Their Press release however, claims this :PADS Maker is offered through a free, annual, renewable license.Anyone know for sure which statement is true ? That "seeiflicenses are available", sure sounds like a lot of fish-hooks and risk exposure.. ?Hopefully, the press release was more proof read than the wiki ?Other issues : I know IC vendors who use PADS, who would be interested in publishing their Eval Boards in PADS Maker form.Oops, Mentor explicitly block that pathway as PADS Maker cannot read a Full PADS design, and no mention of PADS being able to export to PADS Maker.Such are the issues when Corporate's try to be too clever over turf protection, the end result is silliness like having to go via a competitors package, tomove between two Mentor ones!!

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 11:37:57 pm
content: Quote from: uncle_bob on May 02, 2017, 05:27:45 pmConnections usually mean each rats-nest, aka each pin-pair.Two pins connected is one pin pair, and a chain of 4 pins, is 3 pin pairs.Vias are not counted.The (first?) download in 497MB, I'll try it...

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 11:44:42 pm
content: Quote from: PCB.Wiz on May 02, 2017, 11:37:57 pmHiIf they want to get "cute" they can count each connection to a net and include the connections to net zero (Mentor's no connect destination). All of a sudden 1500 connections is the same as 500 ....Bob

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 12:23:26 am
content: Quote from: uncle_bob on May 02, 2017, 11:44:42 pmI've checked, and the above is correct - connections are rats-pin-pairs.Below is an image of an example PCB with 1659 connections (iejusttoo large in connections), and a 5x5" rectangle added.Looks to me like most 4 routing layer designs will hit the 25 sq inches,beforethey hit 1500 pin pairs...

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 12:29:59 am
content: HiI guess a lot of it comes down to just how many "hobby" users will be doing a bunch of 0.4 mm spacing BGA's with > 300 pads each. I'd guess not a lot of people. Of course if you get pedantic and put end termination resistors on both ends of every single connection, you can run the count up fast even without a bunch of parts. Again, how many hobby designs will be done that way? I'd bet you also can't do embedded parts in this version. Same question about hobby users ....Bob

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 12:48:27 am
content: Quote from: uncle_bob on May 03, 2017, 12:29:59 amWhat do you mean by embedded users ?

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 12:51:15 am
content: Quote from: PCB.Wiz on May 03, 2017, 12:48:27 amHiIn Expedition, (and I'd bet in PADS) you can put embedded resistors and capacitors inside the PCB it's self. It is a cute way to handle line terminations and bypassing on high density parts. It also is ghastly expensive to produce in small volumes.Bob

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 02:35:07 am
content: Quote from: PCB.Wiz on May 02, 2017, 11:37:57 pmAll downloaded and installed.... reasonably quick..Quote from: uncle_bob on May 02, 2017, 05:27:45 pmAs always, the fine print matters, andyes, they have removed a LOT from PADS Full.Starting simple, here is a limits report portionCode:JOB LIMITS REPORT -- preview_new.pcbItem Type Items Used Limit (if any)Parts 28Nets 60Connections (w/o Plane Nets) 85 1500Connections 137Route Segments 754...Electrical Layers Count 4 6Signal Layers Count 2 4Board Area (square inches) 5.48 25.00So, theonlylimits are those in the right hand column, and a small bonus, is Plane Nets do not count.The PCB example above, with 1659 total connection, hasConnections 1092, when VDD,GND are removed, so it would comfortably fit into PADS Maker.Back to what is missing:Quite a lot is removed...Removed ASCII in/out, so you are stuck witha closed binary database, in stark contrast with KiCAD or even Eagle.Removed DXF in/out, from both Design & Decal Editing, in stark contrast with KiCAD or even Eagle.Removed Scripts, in stark contrast with KiCAD or even Eagle.Full PADS ECO has 18 Items, PADS Maker has just 3 - Removed are plenty like Add Part, Add Connection, Change Component....Removed ASCII Netlists - .dnf is now closed binary, in stark contrast with KiCAD or even Eagle.Removed ^C,^V from selected Component(s)That's alotof removed items, and with some basic things like DXF, you have to wonderwhy?? Does anyone else not offer DXF ?It seems counter to basic marketing, to label a Product PADS Maker, andthendelete rafts of quite basic ability ?Potential upgrade users will just think PADS has the same crippling limitations, only comes with an AutoRouter, & more layers & no Size limits...ASCII NETLISTs/ECOs allowed a lot of version control and checking scope, as well as other tool flow merging.With that gone, you can nowonlyaccess the PADS layout portal, via PADS Maker Schematic.DXF was vital for unusual footprint import, and mechanical control.What is still there ?It can still create PDF and it can ODB++ export, so it looks like theonlypathway to Pick and Place, is some ODB++ add-on - which not everyone supports.The DRP / SH commands are still there, so you can Shove traces, Smooth traces, and here it is (mostly) on a par with KiCAD.Teardrops are still there, including curved teardrops - nice to have.Summary : A lot of removed/closed doors, and now a closed, binary database everywhere, complete with a time-bomb license. Represents a high risk to any users.

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 02:40:27 am
content: Quote from: uncle_bob on May 03, 2017, 12:51:15 amHmm, you mean multilayer PCBs, with SMD pads oninnerlayers and routed cutouts on outside layers, as needed ?I doubt the PADS PADSTACK approach could manage that, tho some Flex PCBs must end up like that, where the Flex emerged as an inner-layer from some standard board.In database terms, any parts on Flex, are on inner layers.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 05:19:55 am
content: Can this Mentor Maker do more than Altiumhttp://circuitmaker.com/?

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 06:53:21 am
content: eQuote from: ebclr on May 03, 2017, 05:19:55 amSeems they all have different caveats/gotchas... Mentor Maker has strict limits, but I think does avoid requiring internet or cloud connections.The CM forum gives some clues where their problem lie..https://circuitmaker.com/forum#forums/300007and this from another thread..Quote

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 11:39:47 am
content: Quote from: PCB.Wiz on May 03, 2017, 02:40:27 amHiWhen they manufacture the board, they put resistors internal to the structure of the board it's self. I've never visited a plant that does it so the how part is an unknown for me. The main reason I know the capability is there in Expedition is that we used it to place internal jumpers. It's one way to make an isolated plane isolated ....Bob

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 11:51:17 am
content: Quote from: ebclr on May 03, 2017, 05:19:55 amHiI'd bet that right now it's got all sorts of issues from being ripped out of a larger program. For anything serious, I'd say come back in 6 or 12 months. The issue with all these programs is in the details. If they are serious about this being a product (and they may not be) the details will only be worked out when user feedback starts rolling in. The feedback will be looked at in light of whatever goals they have for PADS Maker.One example already noted above: Support for export to a pick and place machine. I'm sitting here at home. I'm certainly not in business. I *have* a pick and place downstairs. They aren't that big a deal these days. Is supporting common export formats "inside" the envelope for PADS Maker? Right now there seems to be a gap. Will that be fixed or not? Only time will tell where they want to go with this.Bob

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 02:46:52 pm
content: Pads component XY data export has long been a bag on the side, specifically it is usually done either by using a script to produce an excel spreadsheet or by exporting the design as ASCII and then post processing it in some sort of external CAM tool, it works but.....PADS is quite powerful, but has some major 'usability issues', and some things that are really silly optional paid extras (Differential pair length matching is an "Advanced rule feature"?? Really??).If they are trying to push "DxD" on this as a schematic package instead of some sort of cut down PADS "Logic" then run away screaming, DxD is a total dogs dinner.Then we get to the subject of FlexLM for license management, no idea if they are doing this on the 'Maker edition', but it is a major pain on the full package.Regards, Dan.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 03:49:41 pm
content: Diff pair length matching is a cost option with OrCAD too, you need the 'professional' tier to enable it.It certainly used to be with PADS that push-and-shove routing (F3) was a cost option, and without it, you had to move tracks and vias around manually to fit new traces in. I actually did a board like that once *shudder*. Is it present in this new version?

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 04:25:15 pm
content: HiThe license setup on the "Maker" stuff does not appear to be FlexLM. Since they don't do floating licenses (everything is node locked) there's not a lot of need to pay the royalties for a full blown license manager.At this point the whole thing is a bit of a mess. If I pick a random IC in the Digikey empire, it does not have any data associated with it. The expectation is that I will do all the leg work to create that data and then up load it to their cloud. Others will then see my work as "Digikey supplied you a part". If Bob's had a six pack before doing the pin out stuff, the result you get may be a bit "interesting". Since it looks like maybe 0.001% of the parts have symbols associated with them, you *will* get a lot of stuff from some unknown guy named Bob.Popping in and out of the magic cloud based Digikey part database is a "log into the web each time" sort of thing. It's not exactly what I would call tight integration. When the part comes down, you get a file. You then hit refresh and the file shows up. It has a wonderfully useless name on it and it is in the "PartMiner" category. First step is to open it up, fix whatever is wrong with it. Then you save it with a proper name into a category of your choice. The good news is you are forced to do what you *should* do and look at the part.Next up is the fact that the cloud empire Part whosis is only set up to handle SOIC's right now. Anything else is "coming real soon now". You *can* do the same basic stuff inside Maker Schematic as you do on the web. You will get a symbol that you can link up. The usual Mentor approach applies ... we did it backwards / upside down / inside out .... get used to it. You can generate a symbol. Either way, you will spend some quality time working out how a .csv file needs to be formatted to get things to work. I suspect the real docs both on the web interface and on the internal generator will be along real soon now.Once your symbols are all wired up in schematic, it's off to layout. There is a footprint tool that is a stand alone processor between the schematic and layout (you don't do the footprint when you generate the symbol). At least when I run the footprint editor, there is a *very* limited set of footprints in there. Maybe it's smarter than I am. Maybe it's yet another "learn the Mentor way" thing. If indeed you are now off to create a footprint by hand for your 208 pin package ... good luck with that. If there is a footprint editor hidden in there, it's not obvious where to find it. Either way, right now I'm stuck with my 64 pin IC and no suitable footprint.So, about what I expected so far. Very much a work in progress with a bunch of "coming real soon" notices. We'll see how it develops. Unless you like pain, wait a few months and if it turns into something.Bob

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 09:03:09 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on May 04, 2017, 03:49:41 pmShort answer : Yes.PADS has two Shove routers.The one built into Layout, enabled via DRP and SH modeless commands, is still there, as is Smooth.The Shove Router in the PADS AutoRouter package, is clearly not there, as the AutoRouter is not there. This Shove is different, generally (mostly) smarter.

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 09:14:35 pm
content: Quote from: dmills on May 04, 2017, 02:46:52 pmWhich makes the decision to remove scripts, more puzzling.I guess they can add a Pick and Place script into the Reports menu, once they realize the mistake....Wonder if anyone inside Mentor actuallyusedthis package end-to-end before they released it ?Quote from: dmills on May 04, 2017, 02:46:52 pmPADS Logic would have been a smarter pairing, for a Maker end release, but I think Mentor have lost the PADS Logic Skills, not to mention Turf War blinkers..It looks like DxD..and there is no other choice, as the netlists are now binary.- but I can't fully test it, because the install I did, hasno example schematics whatsoever, not even ones matching the sample PCBs (which you can only modify, via SCH)Guess those are still coming...

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 09:39:18 pm
content: HiI think it's fair to say that this is (at best) beta test level code. So far I see no practical way to get a design from one end of it to the other. I would *love* for somebody to prove me wrong on that. The idea that anybody used If you root around, it's apparent that a couple of Arduino projects got run through the beast. I see no sign that there was a more general "large scale beta" done.Quick way to see what has been done:Do a search for parts with footprints and symbols. That will give you a pretty good idea.Bob

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 11:01:27 pm
content: Quote from: uncle_bob on May 04, 2017, 09:39:18 pmYes, the Press images show that, so I fully expected to see exactly that, sitting in the samples directory.Instead....The sample PCB provided has an 87C256, has anyone in Mentorgoogled87C256 (or PAL16R8) to find out just howcutting edgethose parts are ?

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 11:17:11 pm
content: HiGiven how close this all is to the Mentor -> Siemens transition ... I wonder if it got rushed out the door? Having been in the middle of those sort of things a number of times, it is a real possibility. It also raises the question - how committed are the new owners to this idea? It could die a year from now if they aren't behind it. Rush it out the door to take care of the contract with Digikey. Get it to expire as soon as you possibly can ....Fake news? who knows ...Bob

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 12:59:59 am
content: Quote from: uncle_bob on May 04, 2017, 11:17:11 pmBig companies are far too sluggish to move that quickly.Mentor already had a very similar, nobbled offering at Digikey, this is just another re-try.This email from Digkey has the real reasons, encoded in usual Corporate Spin Speak:Quote from: DigikeyTranslated:The previous Digikey offering of PADS subset Mentor Graphics' Designer was a dismal commercial failure, so we are trying again, with another crippled version of PADS called PADS Maker.

author: cathyT
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 05:09:44 pm
content: Good catch on the wiki error! We'll get that fixed right away. It should say, "PADS Maker is offered through a free, annual, renewable license. PADS Maker Pro licenses are perpetual and never expire."

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 10:11:29 pm
content: HiWell, I spun around for a while playing with manual footprint generation. Without their "wizard" (it's not part of the Maker empire) the process is .... errr .... painful. The "symbol entry" format for the CSV file is a bit obscure (but it *is* PADS standard). I ultimately got a simple symbol entered. No idea if complex (hierarchical) symbols will work with Maker. I also ran into the bump in the road I expected. I grabbed the "official Digikey generated" footprints for some SMA connectors. Hmmm.... there's only one pin ... hmmm ... Place it, run it through the process. Hook up the one pin (assuming the ground gets done auto magically). Nope, it just does not connect to anything at all. So even with the "right" data from the cloud, no luck. If this was a functional program (Expedition), the board would be laid out already and out to the fab ....Again, about what I expected to run into at this early date in the life cycle of PADS Maker ....One hint if you are doing manual footprints: Their default pad stack is a bit sparse. A normal mount point for a component likely will have a clearance hole in the solder mask, an opening in the solder screen. If it's a leaded part, it'll have those on both sides of the board. On an SMT part, their "through holes" in the default need to be taken to zero.Bob

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 01:34:18 am
content: Quote from: cathyT on May 05, 2017, 05:09:44 pmGood to hear, CathyCan you also look intoa) Why the install appears to have no example schematics whatsoever, not even ones matching the sample PCBsb) Why the example Boards show in the Screen Shots, are not in the install ?

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 01:37:16 am
content: Quote from: PCB.Wiz on May 06, 2017, 01:34:18 amHi.... If Cathy if from Digikey:When will the PartMiner be fully implemented for a reasonable set of packages?Is there any effort under way to auto-populate the database or is it all going to be user input?Bob

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 01:42:05 am
content: Quote from: uncle_bob on May 05, 2017, 10:11:29 pmEven worse, there is no means to clone a layer's stack info fields, so once you have your (eg) offset oval finger all defined on Cu, you have to enter all that again and again, for every layer.Really Mentor, basic ^C, ^V should be in all elements of any decent program these days...

author: plazma
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 03:22:18 pm
content: How does the Pads Maker Pro compare to Altium Circuit Studio?They cost almost the same.

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 03:32:02 pm
content: HiAt the moment PADS Maker is a work in progress. If anybody else has been able to log into the Mentor support forum with their "Maker" license, they are doing way better than I am. Judging from the zero activity on that forum, it is still shut for beta testing. I'm guessing that same "still in beta testing" applies to a number of things we will see in the product 6 months from now. At this point there are still a number of gaping holes in it. You *can* layout a board with it. You run into a bunch of gotchas. I'd suggest a bit of a wait before doing any in-depth comparison of brand A vs brand M ....Bob

author: DigiMan
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 15, 2017, 07:52:12 pm
content: Bob,Are you referring to PartQuest.com or PartMiner?I don't think DigiKey has much to do with PartMiner of late. However, PartQuest.com does have over 1M DigiKey parts out of the box with a S&F. We are working at increasing the library as fast as possible with direct generated content. We prefer to steer clear of the user generated content as it CAN be unreliable. That is a whole other post.I hope this helps with the library creation side. We are listening!Jeremy

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 15, 2017, 08:10:08 pm
content: Quote from: DigiMan on May 15, 2017, 07:52:12 pmHiSorry for the typo. PartQuest is what I was playing with. I'm still hoping for the ability to download typical ARM MCU's and FPGA's from the major outfits.Bob

author: glameris
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 30, 2017, 07:36:37 pm
content: There are several reference designs for PADS Maker including the BeagleBone Black at:https://eewiki.net/display/MentorGraphicsDocumentation/Reference+Designs