EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 04:00:04 am
content: Dave repairs several faults in a 500MHz HP54161B 2GS/s oscilloscope.One in particular is quite elusive, can you figure it out before Dave does?BONUS: Sneak peak at a new Siglent SDS1000X-E Series scope!

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 05:24:45 am
content: For the cracked ASIC, try supergluing the piece back on and using conductive ink to hopefully reconnect the traces. Not much to lose trying.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 05:25:01 am
content: Thanks, I enjoyed thatWho is Bill, at around 37 min in ?Presumably he is just playing your arcade game thing.I saw the cracked PCB, in the first few seconds or so of the video, and expected that to be the problem. The cracked case gives further clues (as you said). I also wonder if the hard knock/drop (presumably) which caused the damage, also cracked the hybrid IC.It is bit annoying that the calibration? data memory, has got a limited battery (life age). Pity it was not flash/EEPROM used to store the information. But that has a limited time life spec as well. But I expect it can last a lot longer than batteries. E.g. 20 years or longer.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 07:16:15 am
content: Nicely done!Now crack the hybrid and give us a look

author: bktemp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 07:34:56 am
content: It looks like the 3 broken pins on the ASIC are the analogue input (GND, signal, GND). So any repair is probably going to affect the measured signal waveform unless it is done really well.The lost calibration data probably don't care much, since you need to do a calibration anyway after replacing the ADC ASIC.It is probably a good idea to also replace the battery backed up SRAM module, since its calibration data has been reset to defaults.Are the cut/drilled traces on the front pcb because of the gold plating? If I remember correctly it was necessary to connect all traces on a pcb together for electroplating before they changed to electroless plating in recent years.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 07:41:13 am
content: Good watch Dave, just as MK14 has said the broken bezel on the front panel is a big red flag that it's taken a substantial knock.As much I enjoyed the diagnostics so often faults are easy to find withcloseinspection. As you have pointed out the PCB was not well fixed, if it had been, maybe the damage might have been more extensive and obvious.Nice repair, thanks for sharing.Won't ask what you thought of the X-E, you'll share that with us in good time.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 08:43:30 am
content: Can we take it there is no longer going to be an interesting inexpensive scope from Siglent in the near future?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 09:00:16 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on March 27, 2017, 05:24:45 amThe traces are cracked right on the corner of the ceramic top cover, so nothing to reconnect to.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 09:01:54 am
content: Quote from: bktemp on March 27, 2017, 07:34:56 amAh, yes, could well be.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 09:02:43 am
content: Quote from: coppice on March 27, 2017, 08:43:30 amNo you shouldn't!It will set a new benchmark for bang-per-bandwidth.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 09:05:14 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 27, 2017, 07:41:13 amI did do that, just not well enough, I missed it the first time. Oh well.QuoteVery nice bang-per-buck.

author: Windfall
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 11:57:58 am
content: Repairs rock. Good to see something old but worthwhile working again, instead of being dumped.Not sure though why early on a commonality was apparent (buttons sharing a matrix line), but this commonality was not researched until much later. Also, why the hell did manufacturers still use battery backed RAM for calibration data in 2000, why not use an EEPROM ? I don't get that, unless theywantedit to become useless after X years.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 02:20:28 pm
content: I wonder if Dave is willing to sell that unit. It still makes a good mid-tier hobbyist DSO after the repair and a new front-end ASIC. And since the calibration RAM data is gone anyway you might as well suck the RTC chip off and replace it with a socketed one. Socketed for easier future servicing as the RTC can just be pulled off the board by hand.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 03:15:39 pm
content: Quote from: technix on March 27, 2017, 02:20:28 pmI suspect Dave didn't pay much for it.

author: skycarl
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 03:46:15 pm
content: That was a great repair. I too was wondering if the break on the ASIC could somehow be glued but probably not.Anyway,,, enjoyed this one for sure.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 04:39:14 pm
content: Dave: Was the chip broken by the 'scope being dropped or did you do something ham-fisted?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 04:44:36 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 09:00:16 amI dare say there'ssomebodyout there who could do it but we're only mortal.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 04:54:50 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 09:05:14 amI did have some help though.I need to get the first "inch" or so of the youtube progress bar, video loaded, so that I can reliably and smoothly watch it in full 1024 HD resolution.While I was doing that, I was watching the first 30 seconds (approx) two or more times.So with Dave very early on saying something like, "Watch out viewers, see if you can spot the fault".So I was pre-warned that it is likely to be observable on the PCB.I saw a brief image, where I could apparently see crack(s) in the PCB, near the rotary controls.The cases (HP) are usually rather well built. So it probably would have taken quite a knocking (or drop), to get the damage to the case.I thought that Dave did very well repairing it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 04:58:15 pm
content: What's the explanation for having this trace on the board if it goes nowhere?

author: MarkL
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 05:48:13 pm
content: The 1NB7-8353 ADC hybrid is also used in the HP 16534A scope card in their modular logic analyzer line. I recently repaired a couple of them and one had a bad hybrid.Of course I couldn't resist taking the top off. Photo below. I cracked the substrate in the process and also had to use quite a bit of heat. Some of the caps might have reflowed and shifted a bit.You can clearly see the ADC on the right and the 32k circular buffer memory on the left. Someone already pointed out the piece that cracked off on Dave's was the input transmission line which you can see here goes directly to the ADC.I bought a couple of ADC replacements from the $45 guy on ebay, watronics. He's a retired HP/Agilent scope engineer and a nice guy. No affiliation; just a satisfied customer.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 06:13:56 pm
content: Quote from: MarkL on March 27, 2017, 05:48:13 pmI wonder if there is any way to build an equivalent circuit using modern parts on the same footprint with FR4 substrate material?

author: bittumbler
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 06:23:15 pm
content: Hi Dave,is this one of the models with the Space Invaders easter egg?

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 08:04:18 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 27, 2017, 04:58:15 pmBottom of Reply #4 by bktemp . I've had always wondered about those on keypads.

author: EvilGeniusSkis
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 10:12:02 pm
content: It might be worth gluing the piece back on and seeing if you can get solder to wick in and make the connection. It's already broken doesn't matter if you make it worse.

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 12:26:33 am
content: Quote from: technix on March 27, 2017, 06:13:56 pmProbably no which is why the low end scope manufacturers have not been able to offer something economical in the 500 MHz and above category

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 12:31:22 am
content: Quote from: snoopy on March 28, 2017, 12:26:33 amIf it needs an exotic substrate, it's not a big deal as it could be a small sub-board.The reason we don't see cheap 500MHz+ scopes is very few people need them. Probing is also an issue.

author: pieman103021
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 12:37:37 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 09:02:43 amVery excited to see what is coming, any clues you can give to time frame? I know you probably don't know/can't say.Looking forward to seeing another oscilloscope review/teardown.

author: Radio Tech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 12:50:53 am
content: It sure was a pleasure to see Dave work through the issues on this scope.That was fun to watch. Big thumbs up Dave

author: orin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 12:56:51 am
content: Quote from: MarkL on March 27, 2017, 05:48:13 pm$45 OBO - probably get a few $ off that price.I've dealt with Bill (watronics) in the past and wouldn't hesitate to deal with him again.Orin.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 01:12:59 am
content: Quote from: pieman103021 on March 28, 2017, 12:37:37 amI'd been given a date of mid April but that was before Dave was asked to can his teardown of it.....trying to get some update on that date ATM.

author: pieman103021
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 01:20:53 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 28, 2017, 01:12:59 amCool, thanks. Any reason he was asked not to do the teardown? Or did you mean for the version they aren't releasing?

author: NA5WH
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 01:33:33 am
content: Lovely repair. I saw something on the front board early in the video, but thought it was just your contact cleaner or something like that.. always hard to tell.Definitely there are those days I want to try my luck at an ebay find... mostly a spectrum analyzer... but have a few other non-electronics things I have to finish up before thinking about that.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 02:28:05 am
content: Nice repair Dave! Looks like all the faults came from a physical shock.. like the scope was dropped or something.. probably caused both the hybrid ceramic to break and the front panel PCB to break as well.I have the older HP54610B (20ms/s but still pretty nice for repetitive signals).One thing I must say about these scopes is they absolutely have a lovely UI and controls. I wish modern scopes were this streamlined, but it's absolutely a breeze investigating random signals with these scopes.Also a missed opportunity.. you could have played some Tetris on the scope (easter egg in firmware).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 02:41:39 am
content: Quote from: pieman103021 on March 28, 2017, 01:20:53 amDave's done the teardown and the vid is in the can, he's been asked to keep it there until further notice.All are tight lipped as to what's going on so all we can do is wait.I got sent a couple of comparison pdf's, one against the new KS and the other against a GW.When I get some time to check their accuracy they might be worth posting, but probably in a new thread for the X-E.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 06:08:41 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 28, 2017, 02:41:39 amAre we still talking about the SDS1000X-E series, or is it now the SDS1000X-C which seems to be around in China?

author: bulltza
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 07:23:55 am
content: Nice repair but I miss seeing it at the end mounted and cleaned!, while watching the video I could not resist the feeling of having to clean it...Maybe you can try to open the can of the ADC and solder somehow those pads. For sure being the signal input of the ADC it will affect somehow, but for low speed signals it would work nicely if you manage to not break it more. I think at least I would give it a try!We want more repair videos(yeah whatever the statistics say)BTW my first post in the forum, being watching EEVblog videos for the last year I finally decided to post something

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 08:12:43 am
content: Quote from: coppice on March 28, 2017, 06:08:41 amBoth are available in China, I've asked about the C and been told to ignore it for western markets.So I guess it will be the X-E....further improved from thelittleinfo I've been fed.Dave probably knows more than what's been shared with me.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 08:51:27 am
content: Quote from: pieman103021 on March 28, 2017, 12:37:37 amLess than a month.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 09:03:23 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 28, 2017, 08:12:43 amGiven that I have supposedly the only 1000X-E in the wild in the world, I'd say that's likelyI will be getting the actual new final release model end of this week/early next week.They are making an interesting move, the base model comes kicking and screaming out of the box.I have not seen any marketing material for the new revised model though and how they will approach that in terms of marketing the new move.

author: pieman103021
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 11:53:58 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 28, 2017, 08:51:27 amAwesome, thanks for the response, looking forward to seeing it.

author: ghpicard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 07:32:41 pm
content: Great vid, Dave!I happened to buy an HP 54616B almost a month ago and the one you repaired is very similar to one I saw as sold for parts by a guy/company from Israel (that cloud plus lightning bolt stenciled to the case is not something one sees everyday).I still didn't receive mine but the video eased up my mind regarding to repairability and ease of access to spare parts.

author: bryanrj1
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 08:23:07 pm
content: Another excellent repair video. It seems like it's a long time between videos of this caliber. Keep up the good work.

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2017, 04:56:52 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 28, 2017, 12:31:22 amHi MikeIf you are probing around slow peripherals on a parallel data bus which shares the bus with fast SDRAM or DDR ram which gets clocked at 100MHz or more then you need at least 500MHz and preferably 1GHz bandwidth so you can see if there are any data bus contentionsFrom what I can see most of the low end scopes build their front end attenuators directly onto the same PCB as the rest of the system presumably to save cost. When you step up to custom hybrids built on ceramics the cost of the scope goes up dramatically along with the cost of the faster ADC'sOf course perhaps economies of scale could come into it and some chinese company may role their own hybrids in the future to compete with the big boyscheers

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2017, 04:59:39 am
content: Has anyone see the ebay auction for one of these ? Looks like Dave may have stirred up some interest on these scopeshttp://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-AGILENT-KEYSIGHT-54616B-500-MHZ-2GSa-s-OSCILLOSCOPE-1ns-PEAK-DETECT-/401296284131

author: mmagin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2017, 05:44:00 am
content: Quote from: snoopy on March 29, 2017, 04:59:39 amIts like surplus rubidium references all over again!

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2017, 12:57:21 pm
content: Bidding on that one was around $200 when I checked while in the middle of watching Dave's video. I guess that answers your question about 'stirring up interest' because I can't be the only one who checked to see if any were available. There are others. For MUCH higher prices.

author: jnissen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2017, 08:19:16 pm
content: No hurt trying to repair that ceramic module. As can be seen from the de-capped unit there are vias and plenty of trace for the grounds. The inner signal likely can be bridged as well. Nothing to lose. Use a bit of heat and carefully pry that lid off. Give it a try. Worst case we all make fun of you for trying!

author: ghpicard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 05:02:51 am
content: Well I got mine from the same seller for 167 USD plus S&H just a month ago. It sometimes happens that people is not interested at the moment you buy, but Dave's directions regarding to go only for this model on the specific scope line, plus his implicit back to its capabilities at the beginning of the video could have definitely stirred up the interest. If it were me, I would let a couple months go by before trying again. People also loses the interest if not stirred often

author: EEngo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 07:52:34 pm
content: What a lovely repair video!+1 for a quick try to open the broken module and connecting something like a RG174 to see the difference in performance compared to the original channel. This could be the first step into some high frequency stuff

author: EEngo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 06:27:54 pm
content: just for fun with a 54616B:sine wave with 1,2 GHz and still triggering ...ingo.

author: onlyrgu
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 04:56:35 pm
content: Yes It look fixable, Everything is!!I think the Hybrid module is fixable!!1.align the hybrid module2. use a sticky(non-conductive) tape on other side of the hybrid module and secure it3. scrape the trace and solder the connections.(similar to what you did on the front panel4. use 2 element glue to fix the rest of the crack,might save the module and your 45$ + shippingthanks for the video

author: harrimansat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 05:03:47 pm
content: This might help:http://www.bymm.de/documents/13/Reparaturbericht_CMS_V1_9.pdf

author: ZsHorvath
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 10, 2022, 08:35:40 pm
content: Hi All,I've just purchased a similar scope.I saw at 29 minutes in the video Dave has mentioned the CLIP at Keysight.I tried to find the same download ("54600A and 54601A Component Level Information Package") but it appears to be removed. Does anyone know if it is available somewhere else or has a copy?Thanks!

author: MarkL
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 03:39:23 pm
content: The only CLIP I know of for this scope was called "546XXA_CLIP_Package.zip". You can search around for it, or take a look here:https://xdevs.com/doc/HP_Agilent_Keysight/54600/The "54600 schematics/" directory contains all the files from the zip archive.