Declining bare board quality? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: aeg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 03:16:06 am
content: I was using supplier "A" for bare board fabrication for over 10 years, quality was always acceptable. In 2021, I ordered a bunch of panels and one of them had a soldermask defect. The supplier wanted me to paint over it with varnish! I declined and asked them to remake the panel, which they did. But the next time I ordered from them, they apparently took revenge by sending me floor sweepings. The shipment was mostly OK, but it included a few X-out panels with 2 different date codes, both more than 6 months old! Apparently they had saved old bad panels and used them to fill out the order? Also of note, sending X-out panels was fair, it was always allowed in the order, but they never had to do it before.So later in 2021, I tried supplier "B", who I had heard good things about. They were very attentive and gave more detailed DFM feedback than I ever received from anyone. When the boards arrived, a few panels looked great, but several of them had gouges across traces, etc, maybe due to the routing operation. I had enough good panels for assembly, so I just discarded the bad ones and didn't follow up with the supplier. I figured that if this is was the quality was like during the honeymoon, it wasn't worth trying to maintain a relationship with this supplier.Also in 2021, I tried supplier "C", another who I had heard good things about. No problems with the first order, good quality, and a sales rep followed up with me. Then I reordered in 2023... After several days, the order was still waiting in review. I sent an email to the sales rep and she responded within an hour and released the order to production. Then the boards arrived and several of the panels had defects - soldermask flaking, voids in pads, etc. I sent an email asking how we can improve the quality in the future, and received a prompt reply that they are remaking theentireorder, not just the bad panels. That's great, but I already had to proceed to assembly without a full set of good panels. And if I hadn't been obsessive about inspecting bare boards, the bad boards could have ended up in products.I'm not going to name and shame, but these are all long-time established vendors, not the guys who popped up in the last few years with super cheap promotional deals. And they're all supposedly working to IPC-A-600 Class 2.Is this just how it is now?!

author: thermistor-guy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 04:49:05 am
content: Replying here mainly to bookmark.Erratic PCB quality was always an issue in my career. I can remember talking to a telecomsmanufacturing manager, 20 years ago. He used to tour the world and inspect PCB plants himself, everyfew years. He'd find a good PCB supplier, but he knew they could/would go bad within a few years. Sohe was continually touring and qualifying new suppliers. Each time, out of 20 or so candidates, hewould select 2.So, nothing has changed?

author: mon2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 11:58:43 am
content: IMHO and nothing personal but suspect highly that you are working with amateurs of the business. Not sure where your suppliers are located but highly recommend that you test some of the pros in Asia. From a discussion with one broker in the USA who reps a mix of qualified vendors of PCB shops in China, he stated there are ~20k suppliers of bare PCBs offshore. Not all are created equal. In our early years of engineering, we wanted to remain local in Canada - like a proud Canadian that we are. That was mistake #1. Paid crazy amounts for the bare PCB and the vendor could not even deliver 100% e-tested PCBs, let alone the end customer's logo was coming off the finished PCB in the client's hands. Pure garbage.Back then, internet was in its infancy but Global Sources magazine was popular. We latched onto a good rep at a decent enough PCB shop. He right away recommended that he work with another PCB shop (not his) to handle the ~10k / month PCB business. It was the wisest move we made and continued to build our product without a hitch after this dealing.Have many names worthy of mention but do share more details of the complexity of your designs.Immediately:Kingford PCB (Shenzhen; contact Daphne)Yaxinda PCB (contact Terry; he can work on your behalf to source from his multiple factories or outsource at discounted rates with Suntak PCB; Founder PCB; China Fastprint, etc.)Shenan Circuits (perhaps the best in China; we used them for our early Halogen Free laminate PCBs that we supply to HP / Foxconn) - but more $$ than othersAs you are in the USA - contact Marc (ICAPE) who is a rep for many qualified shops in China and has staff there that can visit the PCB factory the next day, if there is a QC fault. Have met them at each past trade fair and met with their CEO when he expanded from France to become an international supplier.QuoteShare your horror stories of outsourcing of these bare pcbs. Will also 1000% suggest that you consider a visit to the upcoming electronic trade fairs in October for component sourcing in HK. There are 2 major ones - one is held by Global Sources (at the Airport Expo) and another at the Wanchai Convention - both are a must see. Additional if you have time (smaller) but is Taitronics in Taipei and this year Nepcon in Shenzhen.Can share more details on request.If you want zero X-outs, you will pay more on the per PCB price. That is just a part of the business model. Always demand 100% E-testing. Make it clear on your expectations of the final PCB.

author: MMMarco
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 02:22:44 pm
content: Quote from: aeg on June 14, 2023, 03:16:06 amYou should. So others can avoid these PCB manufacturers and (maybe) it'll put some pressure on them

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 05:16:30 pm
content: I rarely have problems with Chinese pcb manufacturers.Been with JLCPCB for years and quality and price are excellent.I did briefly try another pcb maker but I got a set of pcb's back with every hole through plated when some shouldnt have been.This was despite adding a message in with the pcb that there were 2 drill files one of which was none plated, clearly marked in file.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 09:42:18 pm
content: Quote from: karpouzi9 on June 15, 2023, 06:19:31 pmWe already have hundreds of threads where people have named suppliers without issue. If someone with 1 post comes in and starts promoting or hating on a supplier its obvious they are a spammer.OP should say who these suppliers actually are in case someone else has heard of them.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 12:17:51 am
content: I've had a similar experience in my professional career. Advanced Circuits has been the best "overall" domestic vendor, but they're prohibitive for many projects. PCBWay has, for me, been overall phenomenal, with a total of 1 manufacturing error which they remedied immediately.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 01:27:49 am
content: In my experience, overall the quality of PCB boards is getting better over time. But it's not a steady improvement. Quality varies and is unpredictable.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 01:47:43 am
content: Yeah, I've not had an issue with any of my recent orders (mostly JLC) but in the past I always found quality would vary between batches even with a normally "good" supplier.I would note that communicating with the supplier will benefit you and them. Not everyone cares about cosmetic issues, especially when wanting bargain basement prices. A big supplier like JLC may not give a lot of personal service, but they are cheap and also offer (paid) add-on services like paper between PCBs for shipping protection. If using a smaller supplier who you give regular business to, then chat to them about your needs - they may have limited ability to improve if they are just outsourcing, other than switching who they use.

author: mon2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 10:33:29 am
content: JLC is an excellent option if your pcb specs align with their equipment. Not a suitable pcb shop for more complex designs where you require verified impedance controlled traces with a test report, proper V-shaped edge fingers on PCIe, hdi boards with blind and buried vias, etc. They are very aggressive for their quality and cost but not perfect. They have dropped pcb markings we had on our pcbs without notice in our PCIe designs. The other shop names dropped earlier can support the finer requirements but the costs are higher.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 10:51:03 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on June 15, 2023, 05:16:30 pmWhile price is excellent, quality is not, mostly appearance problems such as a lot of scratches. Tolerances are not great too. 100% e-tested IMHO is either fake or not always done because I had 100% tested board with a short between traces.

author: onsenwombat
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 08:24:58 pm
content: Seems you got your crap during the hot covid years when a fair share of even semi-civilized PCB houses / component fabs were neck deep in backlog, opening up creative opportunities for those who don't put massive value on their long time reputation. Not sure how trustworthy and reputable source has told you the good things, nor what kind of players are we even talking about, but all in all sounds just like another day in the office when dealing with random acquaintances with no-name "heard they're very good" chinese suppliers. I mean, some of them could be and even might be, but the sheer amount of pure dogshit and blatant fake stuff is.. well.. there's quite a bit of that.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 09:26:29 pm
content: Quote from: mon2 on June 15, 2023, 11:58:43 am