Logic analyzer TLA5202 vs USB analyzers (probe density, features, speed) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: newtekuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 08:00:06 pm
content: I'm looking to add more tools to my lab and figured a logic analyzer should be next on my list.There are several options I'm considering such as the 32 port analyzer from dreamsourcelab, or the 32 port analyzer from kingst (the LA5032)Both can be had for the same price (without probes) I could obtain a used TLA5202 off fleabay. I know, ancient tech but I do like Tektronix equipment and software and I already have a TDS5054 so this would complement it.At the moment I mostly work with MCUs that have around 33 GPIOs so the USB options already hit this ceiling. I'm also only be looking at UART, SPI and I2c signals for the most part.The TLA on the other hand has a lot more capacity but only half of the sample rate of the USB options above without hacks, but know that these chinese brands often lie about their true capabilities.Any recommendations? Maybe I'm completely off about their specs.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 08:27:27 pm
content: What ceiling you are hitting if you are only looking at UART/SPI/I2C? Those $8 LAs cover that nicely, may be with exception of really fast SPI.

author: newtekuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 09:03:16 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 22, 2023, 08:27:27 pmI have not considered the cheap options due to low port density should I have to probe more than 32 ports at a time. (Ie multiple chips)

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 09:18:22 pm
content: Quote from: newtekuser on February 22, 2023, 09:03:16 pmHave you ever ran into this limit? This is something that does not happen in practice. Even attaching 32 probes to a board with a modern MCU is a challenge, unless it is a development board and you have all pins broken out.But if you really need this many channels, then I have no idea, I have never needed more then 8 channels.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 11:29:12 pm
content: I can't think why you'd would want a TLA5202 in 2023, other than for niche reasons.As ataradov says, just because your MCU has 32 IO doesn't mean you'd ever need anywhere close to that number of LA channels.DSLogic plus 16 channel can be had for under $150.If you realllly need 1GHz sample rate or the 32 channels then U3Pro32 would be what I would get. But, read some of the existing posts and threads here on the subject. Download the software and try it out, etc.

author: newtekuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 02:11:47 am
content: But feature-wise, which would have the upper hand, the TLA, or the high end USB (say dreamsourcelab) considering the same price?I typically go for the highest spec tool I can afford even if I dont use it to its fullest.Now, if for the same price the USB is more powerful or same, then I'll pick it over the TLA just because it' smaller, more recent and less noisier.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 02:37:39 am
content: Think it depends on what feature/spec you choose to compare.https://accusrc.com/uploads/datasheets/Tektronix%20TLA5203%20Datasheet.pdfhttps://engineering.purdue.edu/~ece437l/papers/tla5201qs.pdfhttps://sigrok.org/wiki/Tektronix_TLA520Xhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/204147974269Anyone know what protocols the 5201 comes with?

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 04:20:08 pm
content: For me, high channel counts have been beneficial mostly for working with older microprocessors that had external 16-32 bit memory buses (repair / reverse engineering). In new designs I'm not so sure about applications outside DDR RAM and other niches.I did find probing to be better thought out in the old big vendor designs, although getting all the parts like flying wires might be tricky or expensive.

author: newtekuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 06:30:31 pm
content: Thanks all! After doing some more research I decided to go with a USB analyzer instead of the TLA just because there are too many unknowns. Ie whether it's in 100% functional condition, protocol support, remaining life span.

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 06:42:29 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 22, 2023, 11:29:12 pmI have no experience with measurements beyond a few 10's of MHz, but from what I understand when you start moving beyond 400-500Mhz, the issues aren't so much the LA itself but rather the probes... I understand that it's damn near impossible to accurately grab samples at those frequencies with fly wire probes (even the coax ones that come with the Dreamlabs versions). Probing at that level is an art unto itself.And even though I've worked with old bus architectures, I don't think I've ever had to go beyond 16 channels. These days I don't even use all 8 on my DSlogic Plus (which works very well for my needs).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 07:14:31 pm
content: Quote from: TomKatt on February 23, 2023, 06:42:29 pmIndeed. For high speed, you'll need much better probes.Instead of he the TLA5202 I'd look at the TLA700 series or TLA7000 series. These use acquisition modules and some of the higher end modules use active-FET probes. Typically this equipment can be bought very cheap from Ebay.

author: newtekuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 08:50:28 pm
content: I purchased the innomaker (kingst) LA5016, should have plenty of oomph and didn't break the bank.

author: newtekuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 03:16:33 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 23, 2023, 02:37:39 amDoesn't come with any, ask me how I know lolThe TLA software has an option to import 'support packs' but doesn't provide any.Since I can't find them on the web I assume they can be purchased from Tektronix for a truckload of money or stuck writing your own but I don't even see an SDK so probably not even possible without reverse engineering.I would like to be proven wrong.(there is a 3rd party SPI decoder for the TLA600 though)

author: newtekuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 02:58:05 am
content: ChatGPT gets it wrong about protocol decoding, here's what it claims the TLA5202 can do:Quote

author: RomDump
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 01:00:28 am
content: Quote from: newtekuser on March 08, 2023, 03:16:33 pmThe official Tektronix SPI and I2C support packs are in the file section ofGroups.IO Forum.Xdevshas a guide to write your own.The Moving Pixel CompanyandBig Bearhad hardware adapters.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 08:52:05 am
content: Quote from: RomDump on April 23, 2023, 01:00:28 amDo you have specific links to the files? I'm not aware that Tektronix ever had official support packs for SPI and I2C.

author: RomDump
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 01:27:26 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 23, 2023, 08:52:05 amLink.You need to register first.They were listed on Tektronix Support Pack Spreadsheet.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 01:33:16 pm
content: If you attach 32 logic analyser probes to a system for anything other than monitoring the 32 bit values on a 32 bit bus, you really need to rethink your approach. There aren't many places where we see a simple parallel 32 bit bus outside a die these days. That's why a 1970s logic analyser tended to be much wider than a modern one.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 02:08:43 pm
content: Quote from: RomDump on April 23, 2023, 01:27:26 pmThanks!Quote from: coppice on April 23, 2023, 01:33:16 pmWell, the trigger abilities of these logic analysers are far superior compared to anything you'll find on a USB logic analyser or oscilloscope. I'm not using my logic analyser often, but when I do it saves lots of time.

author: newtekuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 03:13:37 pm
content: Quote from: RomDump on April 23, 2023, 01:27:26 pmThey only have these support packs for the TLA700 not for the TLA5000 series

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 03:23:32 pm
content: AFAIK all these logic analysers run the same software. Just try to install it and see how it goes. It would surprise me a lot if it doesn't work. I'd be more concerned with the compatibility between TLA software versions.

author: newtekuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 04:21:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 23, 2023, 03:23:32 pmMany thanks, indeed! The packages do come up on the TLA5202 after installationBtw, I'm running Windows 2000 SP4 with original TLA 4.4.075.0 software.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 07:15:42 pm
content: I have had older wide Hp logic analysers like the 1630G and the 16500B. They were essential when I was using them to debug production microprocessor boards where I wanted to watch the full address bus and data bus and find out where it failed.More recently, I've used 8-bit Saleae logic analysers. The very deep memory of USB analysers somewhat makes up for the poor triggering possiblities.Recently, I've wanted wide busses again - debugging an hp 9815 (6800 based calculator) and examining the programming of 24 pin PALs. and wanted more pins againBoth of these are somewhat weird and associated with interests that change ... but it depends on what you're doing. The Tek and the USB analyser solve very different problems and you might want both. Which one you get first depends on what you're into now. The Tek will get cheaper and perhaps something with more memory depth will appear, so that encourages me to go for the USB initially. But eventually, we won't be able to find those old analysers at all.I think glscopeclient offers the possibility of ganging together multiple analysers by correlating common channels. maybe this is a a good longer-term solution to the need for wide captures.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 07:45:14 pm
content: Quote from: artag on April 23, 2023, 07:15:42 pmThat is true. Logic analysers are a becoming extinct. I have been eyeballing a TLA7000 series logic analyser but realistically it is not worth the money for me for as long as my TLA715 keeps working. I do have a spare acquisition module though.

author: newtekuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2023, 04:35:04 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 23, 2023, 03:23:32 pmIt does not appear to be working. This is what I get when I enable probe channels with i2c protocol.

author: HarryDoPECC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2023, 07:04:48 am
content: Yeah, I'd say that modern analyzers are better unless you have some specific use cases.I am glad to have an HP 16500C where the inputs can swing +-40v and the logic thresholds can be user specified. This allows it to be used with negative logic levels e.g. ECL and the -11v logic that is common in the vintage calculators that I like to work with. (The HP9100 calculator uses logic levels of -2.4v and -15v !)Vintage DUT may well need vintage test equipment but where possible I find it easier and better to use more modern tools - USB analyzers, Bus Pirates, etc.

author: newtekuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2023, 05:18:28 am
content: Just purchased a 16 channel (200MHz) LA2016 from Kingst, it supports Sigrok and lots of decoders unlike the Tek. I’ll be happy to save some desk space too. In hindsight I should have kept the first one and not bothered with the old tech. I still have a Tds5054 which I love despite its age.