Advice - Offered 2 EE Internships - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ryan123
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2019, 05:43:25 pm
content: Hi all,I have a question regarding career paths and EE industry if anyone provide me some much needed advice.I am about to finish 3rd year electrical engineering & computer science degree in Australia. I interviewed for and am fortunate enough to received offers from both for employment as a paid internship:1. Government EE role -intelligent road systems & infrastructure- Paid 3 month internship, paid university tuition fees, paid living wage during semester.- Locked into 2 year graduate program after course completion + intern during my last 2 years of uni = 4yrs minimum with the company.- Project management/delivery of operations center- Can leave, but have to return $$2. Large rail solutions company- Electronics design- Paid Internship for 3 months- Design of systems using stm32 micro controllers- Work on rail monitoring/measurement systems- 'foot in the door' at large companyI am at a crossroads and need to decide which sector to go into. Do I choose the rail company, where I work on electronic design, which is my favorite part of Uni and as hobby, then still have an opportunity to apply for graduate programs next year. Or do i choose the government job, which offers good perks, working on large projects in a corporate environment, but will be locked in for the next five years.My concerns are career progression and job security long term.If you were in my shoes, what would be the factors for your decision and which would you choose?Thank you for bearing through my indecisiveness.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2019, 06:35:23 pm
content: Very difficult to compare a 3 month gig with a 5 year gig, and the precise benefits/obligations are unclear to me.Generic questions and observations, in no particular order:how important is the cash? Could you save it and, if you decide to leave, just return itwhich is more prestigious in terms of looking good on your CV?would you prefer to end up being a "jack of all trades and master of none" or "a world expert in a niche field"? Both are valid, but with differing tradeoffswhere do you want to beafter5 years time?do you see yourself staying deeply technical or being more broadly based? It is probably too early to make that decision.which doors do you want to keep open, and which don;t you mind closing? All choices close some doors. At 5yo you could have become a doctor or lawyer or linguist. Choices of school subjects probably precluded some of those. Choice of university subject definitely precluded those. Hopefully closing those doors didn't matter to youonce you leave the technical arena, it is difficult to get back init is easy to enter project management later.what professional qualifications would you like to get? If you stop being technical then it is difficult to become a chartered engineer

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2019, 08:05:58 pm
content: A lot of companies I have worked for have a semi-secret "no public sector" hiring policy. That seems to be universal across US, UK, Europe at least. Not sure in your part of the world. Bear that in mind however if you want to move from public sector to private sector in the future.This stems from the somewhat higher risk of incumbent incompetence in the public sector due to the lax hiring and incompetent HR.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2019, 08:14:15 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 31, 2019, 08:05:58 pmNot just that but working in the public sector is not everyone's cup of tea. You might want to leave before the end of the 5 year term. However whe public sector can be great to work on projects with lots of time to dig really deep into subject matter and then move on to a more commercial environment (if you like).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2019, 08:18:16 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 31, 2019, 08:05:58 pmI don't think I've seen a hard no public sector policy, but people show a lot of scepticism towards public sector people when hiring. If you've spent a long time in the public sector you might not get as many interviews, and people might be more probing in an interview. You see a similar effect when people have spent years in public sector adjacent jobs, like the defence sector.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2019, 08:21:04 pm
content: Yes indeed. That is exactly what happened to me when I moved from the defence sector into the private sector. I basically had to change career and lie through my teeth. Paid off in the end!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2019, 08:42:32 pm
content: Does the public sector job come with a Defined Benefit Retirement Plan? You can bet your bottom dollar, the private sector won't be paying you a pension. They may do some kind of matching on a Defined Contribution Retirement Plan but if you don't contribute they don't match. And the matching amount may be limited. Typical for US, I don't know anything about Australia.I didn't follow all of the detail but it seems like the public sector job starts as an internship and then they pay for your education up through a Master's program including a wage. It looks like the 5 year deal is really the last 2 years of undergrad plus 3 years of grad school. Grad school is important, can you afford to get through it on your own, even if you have a job in the private sector?I didn't understand the 5 years - is that 5 years after grad school or 5 years that includes 3 years of grad school? Why does grad school take so long? I spent 12 months and it was only 31 semester units (back in '76).I'm pretty sure 'roadways' won't translate in to a private sector job but I can't see why somebody working for the Defense Department couldn't easily transition into a position in defense manufacturing. Particularly if they worked on the stuff up in the nose cone of a fighter. Or on the sonar systems of a submarine. Signal processing at that level is really complex and any experience is better than what a new-grad would bring to the dance.If an organization is going to pay your way through college, I think is reasonable that they expect you to hang around a while. If you can get the education on your own, maybe go for the private sector job.Compare salaries: How much does each position pay? How much will it pay at the end of your career? Pensions are important, see above. Look at the big picture. How about paid holidays? Paid vacations?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2019, 08:49:37 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 31, 2019, 08:42:32 pmDefined benefit retirement plans are becoming completely untenable as people live longer. They are becoming even more untenable as employers keep putting their side of the deal off till tomorrow. The public sector is pulling back from them in most countries, so there is no guarantee of what you will get in 40 years time. With weak returns on investments in the last few years, it looks like many retirement funds are staggering towards bankruptcy.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2019, 11:39:36 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 31, 2019, 08:49:37 pmYet public employees still have them but now many members are being asked to contribute about 8% of their gross income into a fund that used to be paid solely by the employing agency. Now the contribution is on par with Social Security which public employees don't pay. Of course, they have to live on the much larger public pension instead of scraping by on SS..I think a lot of places are following the Greek model into bankruptcy.As to weak returns: The Dow Jones Industrial Average is up 34% since the inauguration. It will crash big-time if one of the socialists wins the next election. Free everything for everybody just doesn't work! We're thinking about selling everything to cash by mid-summer next year. Everybody else will do the same thing and the market will tank even before the election.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2019, 12:09:10 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 31, 2019, 08:49:37 pmYes. The way forward is to make sure you save money for an individual retirement plan. That way you can invest your money in more profitable funds as well. At least in the Netherlands the retirement funds are bound to extremely low risk investments so the low interest rates are killing the pensions; many retired people are getting paid less and most of the pensions don't even follow inflation.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2019, 12:11:04 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 31, 2019, 11:39:36 pmI keep seeing reports in the news from America that many states have been cheating their employees for decades, not putting aside the pension contributions they were contractually committed to do. I also see reports of some states now at the point of cutting monthly pension payments because the pension fund will go broke if they don't. With the balance between people working to people in retirement shifting towards more in retirement, there aren't going to be too many working people to cream off from to try to keep these funds afloat.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2019, 12:13:23 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 01, 2019, 12:09:10 amIt seems a lot of the huge pool of negative yielding bonds in Europe are in the hands of pension funds, because their hands are tied by those requirements for extreme low risk. This is not going to end well.

author: ryan123
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2019, 02:54:40 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 31, 2019, 08:42:32 pmThank you for your reply, To clarify: they will pay for the 2 remaining years of my bachelors and I am required to work for them during the uni break during that time. After completion of my degree, I am obligated to serve with them for 2 years as a graduate engineer, which is fair.Quote from: rstofer on October 31, 2019, 08:42:32 pmThe advertised deliverables were: project management of operations center, project delivery and contract management to name a few. Will these not translate into other sectors, say if i were to move into mining or oil and gas?As a graduate engineer, the GOV job starts at ~$67k, similar to the private sector job. Both offer at least the mandatory minimum of 9% superannuation for retirement fund.

author: DeanA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2019, 03:34:59 am
content: Hi,I deal a lot with the ITS guys from RMS here in NSW. If you take on a role with them I doubt you would do any design work or ever pick up a soldering iron. I couldn't handle it, dealing with all the bureaucracy. I wouldn't call it all that secure either. Every few years they seem to decide to privatise different departments and even the very long term staff are made redundant.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2019, 03:50:29 am
content: I think when you are starting out in your career it would be better to take the path that leaves more options open to you. It can be hard to know what you really like doing until you have some work experience. Also it's good to get a strong technical foundation at the start. For instance, before you try to manage projects it's good to have some first hand experience of working on projects and seeing what the challenges are.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2019, 09:13:36 am
content: Let's keep politics out of this.Pensions are important, but not yet for the OP. His immediate concerns are to get a job thatpays sufficiently well, whatever that might meanprovides interesting workprovides work that will allow him to find the job after thatallows him to determine what interests him in the futureWithout those considering a pension is mootPensions are a useful consideration from 30 years old onwards.

author: ryan123
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2019, 09:16:09 am
content: Quote from: DeanA on November 01, 2019, 03:34:59 amThank you for your input,I would start in standards pept, then design, then presumably move after some experience to the ITS system. I realize that the role would be maintenance and operations of the system and not design, but could the experience gained through this program carry over to other industries such as the management systems for RIO/BHP.Cheers

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2019, 09:22:00 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 31, 2019, 08:49:37 pmIn Australia, by law,your employer must contribute to your Superannuation fund.That said, you won't save enough just relying upon their quite small contribution, so you are also expected to contribute to the fund out of your income.Many people were already too late in their careers at the inception of this scheme to accumulate a large retirement fund-- others suffer long periods of unemployment.These groups end up with either a full or part Aged Pension instead.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2019, 09:39:58 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on November 01, 2019, 09:22:00 amThis still applies no matter what direction the OP takes in his first step.As suggested above, financing his retirement is not something to worry about for the first gig.

author: ryan123
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2019, 10:05:30 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 01, 2019, 03:50:29 amCheers Ian,The gov position, I would start off with drawings, standards and commissioning of projects. Then possibly move over to the traffic management system. Would this be considered a good technical foundation?Wheres the rail systems company i will be working on electronics, solely R&D projects related to their products. Skills which are transferable to most electronics eng jobs.Would you choose one over the other?Thanks

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2019, 10:37:40 am
content: Quote from: ryan123 on November 01, 2019, 10:05:30 amIn a large engineering system there are many things that have to be done, and they will be done by different people. Some are core technical (e.g. putting components on a board or bits in a memory), some less so (project manangement, gathering requirements, acceptance tests, writing proposals including legal clauses).In a small project and/or company, many of those will be done by one person.If you put in a CV "I achieved the benefit X by doing activity Y" then that will be relatively transferrable.QuoteIrrelevant! It isyourlifeWhen looking at companies I have always met the people I would be working with. After seeing a few companies and sets of people, you can understand what you don't want.

author: ryan123
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2019, 10:40:44 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on November 01, 2019, 09:39:58 amYes, retirement is not my main concern. Although I already have significant savings and already involved in stock, so I think that i will be okay.Brumby, do you have any feedback about my options given you are also located in AU and possibly have industry experience, Thanks

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2019, 12:23:37 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on November 01, 2019, 09:39:58 amThe only real reason pensions came up is because the OP was trying to choose between a public sector and a private sector option. As I and others have noted, spending more than a year or two in the public sector starts to lock you in to it. So, your first gig can quickly become a pattern set for life. Therefore pensions and other benefits (or lack thereof) which are peculiar to the public sector have to weigh in to the OP's decision making, to some extent.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2019, 01:29:26 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 01, 2019, 12:09:10 amEngineers are smart people but sometimes they don't deal with this money thing very well. You need a plan to live in retirement at least as well as you did working. That takes a little thought! One problem: You don't know how long you will live in retirement. I have been retired for 16 years and plan to live forever. I do not intend to live under a bridge.I don't know about markets in various countries but the last 3 years in the US have been pretty nice. 34% in less than 3 years is a living wage! Bonds aren't making anything, Certificates of Deposit don't pay anything, equities are making money - at the moment.You need to spend a LOT of time on this topic as you wander through your career. I retired at 58, most wait a while longer, some stay to 70. I didn't want to do that.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2019, 01:42:02 pm
content: Quote from: ryan123 on November 01, 2019, 02:54:40 amAlthough I have an MSEE in computer design, I never worked in the field. Instead, I made my living in project management and, yes, it works across all sectors. In public service there are probably more rules related to fair competition and you wind up having to give a contract to a contractor you would rather avoid, and you wouldn't even have on the list were it private sector work, but you have to go with the flow in the public sector.My project management work was in the design and construction of high tech facilities (wafer fab, computer rooms, manufacturing facilities, that kind of thing) and it kept me fed all my life. My pre-grad background was Journeyman Electrician and this was a great place to start since every project is heavily into electrical systems. In some cases, the electrical system was the project.So, after you get your MSEE, stick around for another year and get your MBA. You're going to be in management, not so much in engineering and an MBA will look good on the wall. You will already have all the technical skills required to enter the MBA program and it will be simple compared to BSEE. I didn't do the program but I was always fascinated by the sub-field known as "Operations Research" because I was interested in the computer solution to problems involving scheduling with constrained resources. I was really a code weenie at heart.Get your public service employer to pay all costs of all education. The Veteran's Administration (VA) paid my way through under-grad and my employer paid my way through grad school. I suspect they would have paid my way through B school if I had asked.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2019, 01:50:26 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 01, 2019, 12:23:37 pmI spent my life in the private sector, my wife in the public sector. Her retirement amount is much higher than mine.There is risk in the private sector, companies come and companies go, some stay longer than others. Public service pensions are being revised here in the US because they are unsustainable but it really amounts to the employees having to contribute 8% to the fund. Previously, all contributions were made by the employing agency.Quotehttps://www.intentionaladvice.com/2018/11/08/einsteins-theory-of-compound-interest/

author: Pitrsek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2019, 09:43:58 am
content: Design/R&D is great place to start at a company. If you discover that it is not your cup of tea, It's much easier to go other directions from Design department(FAE, technical sales, production, project management), than the other way around. Be prepared that you might need to see few different jobs/companies to discover what suits you. One observation in regards with a regular job(not 3 month internship) - If the place drives you nuts, or feels bad, or in general/on whole does not suit you in first few weeks, leave. That's what is the probation period for, to see if works out for you or not. The place won't change. Don't waste your time and energy, there is limited supply.Did you interviewed(again, the job interview goes both ways) both potential bosses? Which one was better?What are you passionate about? What is your dream job? Which of the two offers brings you closer to it? What are the other options that you are not thinking about?BTW other companies might be willing to pay for your masters degree as well, once they know you.Although the pension is far away for you, own living and family might be a bit closer. Check what are the subsidies and benefits for young people, or construction savings and some similar stuff. Sooner you start, better off you are. Every $ counts. Spend few nights reading about it, your future you will be grateful.Job security is you, not the job. 2 years in a high tech and fast paced company might do for your career much more than 5 years in another place.If you are great at what you, you will be fine.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2019, 09:22:31 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 01, 2019, 01:50:26 pm"Past performance is no guarantee of future results."

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2019, 09:42:33 pm
content: Quote from: Pitrsek on November 02, 2019, 09:43:58 amOne approach to job security is to make yourself irreplaceable at your current job (until technology or business climate changes).Another is to make yourself useful at any company (and move as the landscape changes under you).Think of it as the difference between static stability and dynamic stability.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2019, 09:46:37 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 01, 2019, 01:50:26 pmThat's an important reason why public sector jobs are being outsourced to the private sector in the UK.Relying on jam tomorrow is fine, iff the jam is guaranteed.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2019, 09:52:34 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 03, 2019, 09:42:33 pmI've found it very common that people who thought they were secure because they were irreplaceable turned out to be right about being irreplaceable, but wrong about this making their job security. If more than a couple of people in an organisation think this way it tends to seed its own downfall.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2019, 09:59:06 pm
content: Lesson one would be that everyone is replaceable. Even when key figures topple over unexpectedly they tend to be replaced remarkably easily. Be valuable as you won't be irreplaceable.