Is a Agilent 1673G 34 CH Port Logic Analyzer a good buy? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 05:13:51 am
content: Hello,I was thinking of getting a logic analyzer and I wanted to know what you guys thought of the Agilent 1673G 34 CH Port Logic Analyzer? I've found one for sale that isn't too crazy of a price. What do you guys think would be a good price to pay for one? Thank you.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 06:37:05 am
content: Do you need a self contained portable unit that you can easily move around, and/or do you have limited bench space? You should almost always be able to find a more capable 16700 series logic analyzer system cheaper than a 1670G series, at least going by typical eBay prices for the 1670G series. A 16700A or 16700B isn't self contained and as easily portable when you also have to move a monitor around, but you can see a lot more information at the same time on an external monitor.You should be able to find a 16700A with at least one 68 channel analyzer module for around $200 or less, while a 1670G series typically seem to sell for more than that, and without option 1 or 2 installed the 1670G series sample depth is only 64K.I have several 16700A and 16700B (way more than I need) but haven't come across a 1670G series that was enough of a bargain that tempted me to pick up one of those also.Where in the US are you located? The best deals might be found locally after taking shipping costs into account.

author: BloodyCactus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 01:47:38 pm
content: i have a 1670G and its a beast. BIG and HEAVY. but works really well. I have the 4m option, but its awesome and works really well. triggering can be from easy to insanely complex. it all runs out of flash so you dont have to worry about a really old hd with hpux or windows on it dieing on you.depending on price, if your going to get one, id probably go for one with more channels than the 34ch version (you dont have to use em, but if its not like 50% cheaper than the 1670G with options I dont know if I would bother)

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 04:05:52 pm
content: Quote from: BloodyCactus on January 05, 2016, 01:47:38 pmBIG and HEAVY is relative. A 1670G is not as deep as the full size mainframes, and lighter. Plus add a couple of pounds or so per installed module in the full size mainframes.16500B: 17 x 9 x 22 inches and 40 pounds16700A: 17 x 9 x 22 inches and 27 pounds16702A: 17 x 9 x 22 inches and 33 pounds1670G: 17 x 9 x 15 inches and 26 poundsNothing compared to the monster size and weight for a full size Tektronix TLA VXI mainframe.TLA721: 17 x 14 x 27 inches and 58 poundsTrue the 1670G does boot from flash instead of from a hard drive, but it still does have a 2GB hard drive for storing configuration setups and acquired data.Pluses for the 1670G vs a 16700A: Smaller, lighter, self contained, boots quicker.Minuses for the 1670G vs a 16700A: Usually more expensive for similar configurations (excluding the cost of an external LCD monitor if you don't already have a spare, but a used one should be cheap), not expandable, if any major component (CPU board, acquisition board, LCD, power supply, etc) dies you might not be able to find economical spares for replacement. With a mainframe if the mainframe dies you should still have good modules, and if a module dies the mainframe and other modules should still be good.USB based analyzers are a whole different size, weight, cost, capabilities and performance equation. I've never used one myself so I have nothing to comment on there.

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 06:47:14 pm
content: Quote from: gslick on January 05, 2016, 06:37:05 amThanks for the reply! I live in Corning, New York. I haven't really found anything locally, like oscilloscopes or rework stuff. I've never seen a logic analyzer in real life. I do have to admit, I don't know much about them. I want to be able to sniff i2c and SPI traffic. But I also want to be able to save the data I see to a file some how. I do have limited bench space but I just store stuff like my oscilloscope on the shelf until I need it, and then I just move it to the work bench. I wouldn't really be using it anywheres besides the work room I'd think. I'll start looking into the 16700A and 16700B. Out of the two, which one is better? Would you be willing to sell one of yours?For the sample depth, what exactly is that? From what I've read, if a unit had something like 64K memory depth, that means I'd be able to "sample" 64K per channel. Does that just mean view up to 64K worth of data per channel? I would think 64K per channel would be a lot! That's 65536 bytes per channel or 524288 bits. That's a lot of ones and zero's, isn't it? I really appreciate the help here. Thank you!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 07:01:22 pm
content: I'd look for a Tektronix TLA700 series; preferably a TLA714 or TLA715. The modules which can be bought cheap can be hacked to maximise their abilities. The probes can also be found for little money. For example I have a 32Mpts module in my TLA715 which can sample at 2Gs/s in quarter channel / 128Mpts mode. The TLA700 series also support only recording changes which contrary to the HP logic analysers doesn't cost half the memory depth.

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 07:17:08 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 05, 2016, 07:01:22 pmOkay, sorry for the dumb question here, but what does 32Mpts mean? And 2Gs/s? That's 2 Gigasamples per second, right? But what exactly does that mean?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 07:25:44 pm
content: 32Mpts = 32 million samples (bits) per channel (memory depth). 2Gs/s= 2 billion samples per second.

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 07:29:45 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 05, 2016, 07:25:44 pmWow, thanks! So samples per channel is just how much data each channel can capture. The 2Gs/s is just how fast it can capture that data, right? What happens if I get more than 32 million bits on a channel?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 07:35:11 pm
content: Quote from: Spork Schivago on January 05, 2016, 07:29:45 pmThen it stops sampling

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 07:58:59 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 05, 2016, 07:35:11 pmIt just stops? Okay. Also, are there any disadvantages to using those USB logic analyzers? The ones that don't have a screen and instead use the computer and software ran on the computer?

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 08:07:23 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 05, 2016, 07:01:22 pmI just checked e-Bay for the TLA715. A sold as-is one goes for 450$, which is doable! But the other ones that are guaranteed to work are going for over 2,500$!!!! That's way out of my price range! I wanted to keep it below 500$ if I could!

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 08:07:35 pm
content: If you primarily want to sniff and decode I2C and SPI traffic you might want to look into some the the USB based logic analyzers. That might be one area where they have advantages over the more traditional old school logic analyzers in that from my limited knowledge about them they typically have reasonably good low speed serial bus capture and decode capabilities built in.On any HP / Agilent analyzers below the 16700 series there is no built in serial decode capability. On the 16700 series there is the B4601B Serial Analysis Tool Set but I've never tried to use that for I2C or SPI traffic and don't know if it would really work that well for it.http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5988-9084EN.pdfAs far as the 16700A vs the 16700B, the main differences are that the B has a built in CD-ROM drive, which you would probably only ever use to reinstall the OS software vs needing to hook up an external SCSI CD-ROM drive for that on the A, and a 100MB capable Ethernet vs 10MB for the A, which might be nice if you often what to copy large data acquisition files from the analyzer to a PC for some sort of post processing on the PC.As far as sample depth goes, that is number of samples per channel that can be stored. Depending on what you are doing 64K per channel may be a lot, or not very much.An HP / Agilent analyzer has State and Timing modes. State mode is synchronous with one or more clock signals from the target system. It stores one sample for each channel on each defined clock transition, regardless of how much time elapses between clock transitions. Timing mode is clocked internally by a time period configured in the analyzer. If you are doing something like analyzing the instruction execution of a microprocessor you would probably use state mode synchronized to CPU bus cycles. If you need to analyze in fine detail the timing of when multiple signals transition relative to each other and maybe look for glitches you would probably use timing mode. Timing mode can fill up your sample memory very quick if you need a high sample rate / low sample period.Some HP / Agilent analyzer modules also have a Transitional timing mode, which is similar to regular timing mode, except that it only stores sample (along with a timestamp) when it detects a transition on any of the channels being sampled. When there are infrequent transition that can effectively extend the capture duration significantly. I'm not sure what modules have the transitional timing mode capability other than the 16550A and 16710A/16711A/16712A (and the 16910A/16911A which requires a 16900 series mainframe).If you were local to me in the Seattle area I could probably make you a reasonable deal on a 16500B or a 16700A system that I don't need. I could ship one, but they are large and heavy and take some effort to pack well which unfortunately drives up the cost.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 08:26:24 pm
content: You can get unofficial plugins for the TLA700 series which do I2C and SPI decoding. With some homework you can get a working TLA715 for a reasonable amount; maybe you'll need to reinstall Windows and/or replace the hard drive. Also note that many Ebay sellers have no clue about actual prices so don't get too hung up on crazy asking prices.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 08:27:56 pm
content: Quote from: Spork Schivago on January 05, 2016, 08:07:23 pmHP / Agilent vs Tektronix may be more of a personal preference. I have both, 16500, 16700, and 16900 series, and TLA714, TLA721, and TLA7016. I personally most often use the 16700, but that really isn't all that often. One thing is that I have a bunch of old school CPU pre-processor probes designed for HP / Agilent analyzers (Z-80, 6800, 68000, 8086/8088, etc), and some GPIB, SCSI, and PCI bus probes.Regular POD cables and flying lead breakout probes for the HP / Agilent series seem to be a lot more easily found at reasonable prices than for TEK analyzers. Most HP / Analyzer systems and individual modules I see listed on eBay include the POD cables while a lot fewer of the TEK analyzers or individual modules is see include them.I haven't picked up something like a cheap and hackable TEK TLA7AA4 module since I have no cables for those and a P6810 set is crazy expensive. I guess there are ways to hack up some cables that I haven't looked into yet. I haven't looked in a while, checking now it looks like the price of P6417 cables isn't too bad now for the TLA7 L, M, N, P series modules, but still adds up if you need to buy a few of them.

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 08:39:15 pm
content: Quote from: gslick on January 05, 2016, 08:07:35 pmThank you for that nice explanation! It really clears a bunch of stuff up for me. I do play with serial interfaces once in awhile and it would be great to see the traffic there. Although I don't have a need for it now, I'm sure in the future it'd arise and I'd rather buy something that can grow with me rather than have to replace it within a year or so when I learn more about electronics and stuff.Do you think this is a good price for what I get?http://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-16702B-Logic-Analyzer-with-two-State-Timing-Modules-16717A-and-16740A-/172031834984?hash=item280de57b68:g:sYcAAOSwSdZWccilShipping isn't too crazy and it's a 16702B. I like how it comes with two state timing modules. From what you explained, it seems that I'd like to try analyzing the instruction execution of microprocessors some time. That sounds like a lot of fun.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 09:00:03 pm
content: Quote from: Spork Schivago on January 05, 2016, 08:39:15 pmAsking $400 for a 16702B with a 16717A and 16740A with all of the POD cables isn't too bad if you can make an offer and get it talked down a bit. It is shown with LAN interface errors during OS startup. I would hope that is just a configuration issue that a software reload would fix. Software reload is easy.Still, if you look you could get better deals in the HP / Agilent flavor, such as this 16702A which only went for around $130 with (3x) 16555A and (1x) 16522A. It was shown not booting which I'm sure reduced the price, but most likely a software reload would fix that.http://www.ebay.com/itm/161896554869

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 09:37:15 pm
content: The P6860 probes for the TLA7AAx modules are dirt cheap. A simple breakout board (with enig gold plating) made by Seeedstudio or similar does the trick to create a simple probe.

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 10:23:21 pm
content: Quote from: gslick on January 05, 2016, 09:00:03 pmDamn, I should have went for that one! I found a HP 16500B Logic Analysis System with 16550A Module for a 120$ + 54$ shipping. The guy said he'd throw in pods for 10$ each and grabbers for 1$ a pop. He thought that'd make a great starter system, even though it's 20 years old. Says it can handle 4 pods total. Now I just need to decide if I should wait and look for a good deal on a 16702A (like the one you found) or buy the 16500B one with the 16550A module.I've seen ones that show the LAN interface test fails. I figured it was just because they didn't have an ethernet cable hooked up and it setup for DHCP and wasn't getting a valid configuration from a router.

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 10:25:16 pm
content: If it was you guys making the purchase, would you go for the HP 16500B or look for something like the 16702A with the modules? Man, I can't believe I didn't find the broken one for 130$ with all those modules. That would of been perfect!!! Even if there was something broke inside, I'm sure I'd be able to find a service manual to track down the problem and fix it. That could be a lot of fun as well.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 11:28:53 pm
content: Quote from: Spork Schivago on January 05, 2016, 10:23:21 pmThe last 16500B I sold was for $100 which included a 16555A analyzer module and the 16500H Ethernet interface in the 16500B. That was to someone I knew local though so it was cash and I didn't have to deal with packing for shipment and eBay and PayPal fees. A 16555A is 68 channels vs 102 for the 16550A, but the 16555A is 1M samples deep vs only 4K for the 16550A, which might be limiting depending on what you are trying to do. If you really need a large number of channels you can hook up to (3x) 16555A together in a master/slave configuration with 204 channels. The optional Ethernet interface is nice to have and gives the 16500B almost all of the same capabilities as the 16500C, except the PS/2 mouse and keyboard ports of the 16500C.Too bad you're not local so I could set you up with a similar deal. A quick estimate would be at least $60 to ship a 16500B from one coast to the other.

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 11:41:09 pm
content: 60$ wouldn't be bad for shipping. What would the 16500B come with? Anything at all or would I need to purchase all the accessories and modules for it myself? Like the pods and stuff like that.I found a HP 16702A W/ 16717A & 16701A and 4 X 16500 CABLES D28 for, after shipping and everything, it comes to 404$. It's more, but I made an offer and the guy counter-offered. It comes with everything in the photos.http://www.ebay.com/itm/391351851124?_trksid=p2065413.m570.l6345&_trkparms=gh1g%3DI391351851124.N101.S1.R1.TR4&autorefresh=trueIt'll probably be either the e-Bay on there or the one you're selling. I just don't know a lot about these things yet and not sure if the e-Bay one is worth the extra cash there or not. I really appreciate your honesty and willingness to help me with this stuff. Thank you.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 11:45:39 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 05, 2016, 09:37:15 pmWhat's a good current market price for those, around $30 each? So around $120 to fully max out one TLA7AAx module? I might look into picking up a TLA7AAx module and set of cables sometime, but really I need to be getting rid of stuff, not getting even more stuff.Here's a question about TLA7 modules that I haven't looked into enough to figure out yet. On the HP / Agilent analyzer modules you can set up a demultiplex state mode where a set of channels can be clocked once on a slave clock and then the same set of channels can be clocked again on a master clock. So for example with a CPU with a multiplexed address/data bus you could use one physical set of channels and first clock in the address bus on an Address Latch Enable signal the then clock in the same physical set of channels with the data bus on a later signal in the CPU cycle. Can you do the same thing with TLA7 modules? The last time I briefly looked at that it wasn't obvious how you could configure that.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 12:19:22 am
content: Quote from: Spork Schivago on January 05, 2016, 11:41:09 pmWhen I sold the 16500B locally I threw in a used set of breakout leads and grabbers with it so it was ready to go. If you have to buy those separately from the analyzer they can add up. If you buy an HP / Agilent analyzer without the breakout leads and grabbers the best bet might be to buy a complete new/unused 16715-68702 accessory set which includes a set of POD1, POD2, POD3, POD4 breakout lead set, 80 grabbers, ground leads, and some spares, for around $70 or so if you can. Also known as a 16555-68702 accessory set. If you buy the bits and pieces separately it will usually add up more.-----Personal opinion on the 16700 series is that I wouldn't pay a premium for a 16702 over a 16700 unless I really needed a portable self contained system and didn't want to move an external monitor around or have space to set one up.The built in 16702 LCD display is only 800x600 while you can use 1024x768 or 1280x1024 on an external LCD display. Also, if it has Option 3 installed (look for the OPT# 003 sticker on the back) you can go up to 1600x1200 although most LCD displays won't sync to that display mode. Plus the built in LCD display (and touch screen on the 16702B) is just one more thing that can eventually fail or get damaged during shipping.-----Unless you need one right away to work on a project right now there shouldn't be a need to rush while you're still asking for opinions. Other people might want to chime in with other helpful opinions and it's not like the supply of these analyzers is going to go dry anytime soon and drive prices up.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 12:30:47 am
content: Quote from: gslick on January 05, 2016, 11:45:39 pmI think it can but you'd have to study the online help on how to set it up. Tektronix has several patents on this.

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 12:32:30 am
content: Quote from: gslick on January 06, 2016, 12:19:22 amThank you. From what I've read, the Option 003 for the 16702A just upgrades the RAM to 256MB, right? Can I purchase the memory separately and manually upgrade it if Option 003 isn't installed when I purchase the product? Or is that something HP / Agilent would have to do at their factory?

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 01:34:20 am
content: Quote from: Spork Schivago on January 06, 2016, 12:32:30 amOption 003 increases system memory from 64M to 160MB on most 16700A and 16702A and from 128MB to 256MB on a 16700B and 16702B.Most 16700A and 16702A have 32MB on the CPU board and add another 32MB on a daughter board in the standard configuration or add 128MB on a daughter board in the Option 003 configuration. Some late version 16700A and 16702A have 128MB on the CPU board and either no daughter board or add 128MB on a daughter board in the Option 003 configuration.The 16700B and 16702B have 128MB on the CPU board and no daughter board in the standard configuration or add 128MB on a daughter board in the Option 003 configuration.On all four models Option 003 also adds 2MB of video memory on a daughter board in addition to the standard 2MB of video memory on the CPU board. There are two OKI 54V25632A-10A parts on the CPU board and two Micron MT41LC256K32D4 SGRAM parts on the daughter board in the systems I have looked at.If you have a 16700 series mainframe without Option 003 installed you can easily install it yourself but only if you can find someone selling the daughter boards or scavenge them from a 16700 or 16600 series parts unit. These aren't off the shelf boards you could find anywhere else.If you're curious here are some images of different versions of 16700 series boards showing the main boards and daughter boards. The 16600 series share the same CPU board but populated in a slightly different configuration.16700A Logic Analyzer Circuit Boards (Two Fan Version)https://goo.gl/photos/v9XK2Grc1aCaHGS3A16700A Logic Analyzer Circuit Boards (Three Fan Version)https://goo.gl/photos/ZTDG9VgBvrvJocaQA16700B Logic Analyzer Circuit Boardshttps://goo.gl/photos/JLTTGy6yDPngDKqF6

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 02:05:07 am
content: Thanks for the pictures and excellent explanation! I ended up going for the HP 16702B with the Option 003 add-on. It comes with the 16771A 48-Channel Pattern Generator Module and the 16740A 48-Channel Pattern Generator Module. It needs some work. It needs three filler panels (from what I can see), part number 16500-40502. It comes with some cables but the cables don't have those little wires coming off of the PODS like this item has (http://www.ebay.com/itm/252235169646?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D252235169646%26_rdc%3D1) so I'm going to try and purchase some of them and maybe some grabbers I think they're called. I'm debating on whether I should try to purchase the PODS and grabbers separately or if I should just purchase that accessory kit you mentioned earlier.This is the one I got!http://www.ebay.com/itm/172031834984?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AITI can barely wait for it to come! I want to upgrade it. I want to replace the fans inside with quieter running ones and I want to replace the hard drive with a larger sized SCSI one. I saw a post on someone who managed to do that and it quieted it down quite a bit and sped up the boot-up time by 15 seconds. He put something much larger inside, 146GB SCA Ultra320 SCSI drive. I plan on connecting to this unit using a remote X session if I can. That was the determining factor. I figured 100Mb ethernet would be really nice for that.THANK YOU FOR ALL THE HELP GUYS!!!!! Much appreciated!!!!

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 03:03:59 am
content: Hey Gslick, I found your google drive links in another forum here on EEVBlog for the OS ISOs for the 16702B! Thank you so much! I'm downloading the latest I believe, 2.90.00. Are there any BIOS updates I should try and find as well? Thanks!

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 05:00:15 am
content: Quote from: Spork Schivago on January 06, 2016, 03:03:59 amVersion A.02.90 was the last version of the software that I saw for the 16700 series before support was discontinued. Some of the 16700 series I have have different firmware versions. Without going back and taking a look I'm not sure if that is only between A models and B models, or if some A models have different versions than other A models. I have never seen any tools or firmware images for updating the firmware in the field, or any release notes mentioning firmware updates.In the item listing title for this one the modules are correctly described as 16717A and 16740A State/Timing Modules:http://www.ebay.com/itm/172031834984In the item description the 48-Channel Pattern Generator Module reference is incorrect, that would be for a 16522A Module. The 16717A and 16740A are nice for your first real logic analyzer. The 16717A is faster and deeper sample depth than the 16740A. One advantage of the 16740A though is that it is the minimum module that is still supported by the 16900 series if you ever picked up one of those some day if they become more common and cheaper.Hope it arrives in good working condition. The pictures show it with the POD 1-4 cables for each module so you just need some of the breakout lead sets and grabbers.With the built in CD-ROM drive all you need to do to reinstall the software from scratch is hook up a PS/2 keyboard and hit a key to stop the autoboot sequence when you first power on the system, then tell it to "boot alt" at the firmware prompt and it should try to boot from the CD-ROM and begin the software install sequence and automatically run to completion.First you might want to do "co ti" (configuration time) to check the time, and if it is something like 1970 due to a dead battery then do "co ti 20:16:01:06:04:51" for example where that is the current year:month:day:hour:minute in GMT so that the time is correct before it begins the software installation.Good luck with it. Should be fun.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 11:21:31 am
content: I'm going to be a fanboy here but I don't see the value of the HP logic analysers. They use a proprietary OS on a proprietary platform. The TLA700 series uses a Windows based PC platform. A big advantage of that is that everything is much more accessible and hardware is easy to upgrade (except for the motherboard). Also the TLA700 series allows remote control over the network so you can run the software on a PC with big monitors; no more peeking through an 800x600 or 1024x768 peep-hole sized screen. Actually the Tektronix TLA7016 mainframe based logic analyser doesn't even have a PC inside it. There is an ethernet to VXI bridge module in it to connect the backplane to the network and thats it.

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 11:58:33 am
content: Quote from: gslick on January 06, 2016, 05:00:15 amThanks! It's going to be awesomely fun, I'm sure! So those breakout lead sets and grabbers...that'd be these, right?http://www.ebay.com/itm/111863055111?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AITIf so, is that a good price to pay for them? I thought they should have been called timing modules or something and questioned the pattern generator description but not too much because that's how they had them listed. So what exactly is a pattern generator then? I've seen a few listed on e-Bay now that I know the modules I have are not them... Thanks!

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 12:04:23 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 06, 2016, 11:21:31 amThanks for the input. My HP 16702B will allow remote control over the network as well though so I won't need to view it on a tiny screen, if I'm not mistaken, right? Just gotta configure it for a remote X-Session. Unless when they say it's running X-Windows, I'm thinking of something totally different. I know I personally feel a lot more comfortable in Linux than I do Microsoft Windows. I've only touched Unix once in my life when I was a very young teenager (maybe 13 or 14?). I'd imagine the HPUX would be a lot like Linux. Just HPs version. I've heard of it throughout the years but I've never been able to play with it. Maybe when it eventually comes time to purchase another one, I'll look into the Tektronix TLA700 series a bit more.

author: MarkL
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 12:24:08 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 06, 2016, 11:21:31 amSince when is Windows non-proprietary?Windows is the one big reason to avoid the TLA series, and also the Agilent/HP 16800 and 16900 series, in my opinion.

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 12:38:29 pm
content: Quote from: MarkL on January 06, 2016, 12:24:08 pmIt's so early in the morning here (and I'm not a morning person!) I totally missed the proprietary statement. I think though, it's just different people feel more comfortable with different operating systems. Maybe nctnico feels a lot more comfortable with Microsoft Windows and you and me just feel a lot more comfortable with the *nix type operating systems. I know my wife, she's all about Microsoft Windows for some reason. Just can't seem to get her to make the switch. I do use her laptop a lot though. It's running Windows 10. Just out of curiosity though, has anyone ever tried to make like an open source OS for these Logic Analyzers? Wouldn't we just need to figure out what CPU they're running and either look for a version of Linux that'll run on it or maybe make a version ourselves? Or isn't that an option?

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 12:44:04 pm
content: Is a pattern generator just what it sounds like? Like if I wanted to generate a square wave on my Logic Analyzer's channels, I could use a pattern generator and it'd output the square wave on whatever channels I set it to? So I could do stuff like PWM and maybe simulate button presses or oscillation or something cool like that?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 01:51:05 pm
content: Quote from: MarkL on January 06, 2016, 12:24:08 pmNow you are being irrational. For the TLA700 series you can write your own protocol decoder plugins if you want. You can also use the software offline which works faster and more convenient than on the analyser itself. Sure you can use X-Windows remotely on the HP machines but the software still runs inside the logic analyser box on an ancient & slow CPU. Recently I had a customer who wanted to do more analysis on the data captured. With the TLA700 series that is easy: they can download the software for free and load the captured data without needing the physical logic analyser at all. I'm not a fan of Windows but at some point one proprietary system is just more limited than the other.@Spork Schivago: a pattern generator has seperate output channels. You have to realise that creating patterns is extremely tedious without powerful software to create standard patterns like I2C and SPI transfers.

author: BloodyCactus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 03:11:16 pm
content: Quote from: Spork Schivago on January 06, 2016, 12:04:23 pmI dont know about the 16702B, but Xwindows on my 1670G only put up a window locally the same size as it was on the machine itself, small square window on my desktop. scaling was pretty poor, i mean fully readable and nice, but it was not bigger, and navigating on it was still a pain even with keyboard and mouse (it has some weird keybinding mappings).still very usable but getting such ancient X to play nice with modern Ubuntu X11 was interesting :/

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 03:58:21 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 06, 2016, 01:51:05 pmOooh, writing plugins for a protocol decoder would be a great feature! The one thing I don't really like about my 16702B is if there's a protocol I want to decode and it isn't supported, I don't think there's much I can do. I know I can have root access to the HP 16702B so maybe I could find away to write my own decoders or something. I see they have a module that will let me decode SATA 1.5Gbs stuff though. So I'm guessing to support different protocols, I'd need a module perhaps? Anyway, I snagged up an HP 16534A module which is a 2 GSa/s 2-Channel 500 MHz bandwidth digitizing oscilloscope module. They seem to be crazy expensive but I found one where the guy says the triggering doesn't work so he was selling it for 150$ + 20$. I made an offer, he countered and I got it for 115$ + 15$ or so shipping. Total, around 127$ and some change! I also got the service manual for it but I'm hoping something as simple as calibrating the triggering could fix the problem. Hopefully it wasn't a waste of money.Thanks for the information on the pattern generators. I noticed after I posted that they had their own output channels. I can't see where I'd need a pattern generator right now. I was just curious as to what they were I guess.

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 04:00:34 pm
content: Quote from: BloodyCactus on January 06, 2016, 03:11:16 pmThank you for the heads up! I found a website where a guy explains his endeavours with his HP 16702B. Maybe the option 3 has something to do with the remote session? From reading the comments at the end here:http://tech.mattmillman.com/16702b/it seems a user was able to use his monitor with an HP 16700A and get 1920x1080 on his monitor using a remote X session. So I don't think this will be a problem with the 16702B. Perhaps it's the client you was using that wouldn't let you set the window physically bigger? Or perhaps it's just the way they designed the X-Windows system for your 1670G. Maybe check to see if you're running the latest OS on there and if not, see if an update would fix the problem?

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 04:01:50 pm
content: So do you guys know if I can use these for my breakout leads?http://www.ebay.com/itm/111863055111?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AITI know it's a bit expensive but I'd like to grab them if I could so I can actually use my unit when it comes. I really appreciate all the help and advice people have given me.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 06:00:42 pm
content: Quote from: Spork Schivago on January 06, 2016, 04:01:50 pmAs any eBay buyer I would be more comfortable myself going with a listing showing a new / sealed 16715-68702 kit than a listing with some random images.For example this listing asking around the same $100 shipped, open to best offer:http://www.ebay.com/itm/360857524226I think I've bought an item or two from the seller fourgt - Global Test Equipment in the past with good results.Just my opinion.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 06:22:17 pm
content: Quote from: Spork Schivago on January 06, 2016, 12:38:29 pmThe 16600/16700 series use a 150MHz PA-7300 CPU running standard HP-UX 10.20 and a custom application on top.You might be able to get PA-RISC Linux to boot on one, but I imagine it would then be a huge reverse engineering effort to figure out how to talk through to the bridge to the analyzer modules, and then talk to the various flavors of modules. I doubt anyone would be successful in getting that all to work without internal design documentation and major motivation to do so, but you never know...

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 06:48:58 pm
content: Quote from: gslick on January 06, 2016, 06:22:17 pmThanks. I found a forum on Keysight's website were a guy was trying to find the reinstallation discs. A gentleman provided him a link to the ftp.keysight.com server but they user couldn't get the disc to boot. Last post he made was back in October of 2015. I responded and said I believed the ISO was missing some stuff and referenced EEVBlog and how you (without using names) made a copy of the original discs from HP. I said you also were very thorough in figuring out what was wrong with their ISO and offered them a copy to put on their FTP site if they wanted. I hope you don't mind me doing this. If they decide they want to, if you want, I can credit you for your work. If you'd like to remain anonymous, I can do that as well. The guy that pointed the user to the link actually worked on developing the Credit Card Demo Board or whatever it was called for the HP 16700 series! I said something along the lines of, "Since the 16702B is considered Obsolete, would Keysight be willing to release any of the source code for the unit? I'd love to update some of the stuff in there". I doubt they will, but who knows. Other companies have done so in the past with obsolete stuff. I remember when the developers released the source code to Descent 1 way back in the day.

author: sreeb
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 06:00:37 am
content: Quote from: gslick on January 06, 2016, 06:00:42 pmThis thread inspired me to buy a 16700a without too much thought to the lead cost. Now that I look more closely and see that I need 5 sets @ $100 each to fully populate my analyzer, they look pretty expensive.Now if I could only get the covers off. The back feet require a torx key and I only have torx bits that I can't fit through the well in the feet....

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 11:58:25 pm
content: Quote from: sreeb on January 15, 2016, 06:00:37 amMy go-to tool for working on these is an Eklind T-10 model 68610 T-Handle TORX wrench. There must lots of different brands of these that would work equally well. I use this one because I bought something like a dozen of them together cheap several years ago. I like the weight of the T-Handle to give it some momentum when you spin it, and extra leverage if you have a stubborn screw.Too bad you might pay more to ship one than for the tool itself.http://www.ebay.com/itm/390024443284

author: sreeb
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2016, 07:40:16 am
content: Quote from: gslick on January 15, 2016, 11:58:25 pm

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2016, 06:14:26 pm
content: Quote from: sreeb on January 15, 2016, 06:00:37 amJust curious, but why do you need 5 sets? I figured I'd only be using one of the modules at a time. If I need the other one, I'll just switch out the four connector things with all the little wires on it and stuff to the other module.

author: sreeb
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 02:03:52 am
content: Quote from: Spork Schivago on January 17, 2016, 06:14:26 pmMine is configured with 3 16717a modules (68 channels * 3= 204) and 1 16550a module (102 channels) 306 total.This is a bigger configuration than I ever used when parallel logic analyzers were in their heyday. If your system has 64 bit wide parallel buses, you can go through channels very fast. There is a reason there was an expansion chassis since five modules really isn't enough for some applications. Of course, if you really need to connect 306 channels, hopefully you placed mictor connectors on the board so you aren't using lead sets and grabbers. These days, serial interconnect is common so there is less need for lots of channels.Back in the day, a logic analyzer like this cost real money so it was common to have extra lead sets so you could temporarily move the logic analyzer to another task without needing to spend an hour reconnecting and debugging your lead sets.I probably won't get lead sets for the 16550a since it isn't that good a module and I don't have an immediate need. That still leaves the other 3 modules which are pretty decent. I don't need all three today but I'm concerned they may be harder to come by later.

author: Spork Schivago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 04:23:08 am
content: Quote from: sreeb on January 18, 2016, 02:03:52 amWow, thank you for the response! That's really cool. I couldn't imagine having a need for 306 channels all hooked up at once! That's insane! It definitely put a smile on my face though, reading your post. If I see any for a cheap price, I'll send ya a PM!