2 GHz scope: Rigol MSO8000 vs Siglent SDS6000 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: frankvh2
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 04:49:16 pm
content: I'm looking at buying a 2 GHz 4 channel scope for my workplace and would appreciate any comments or suggestions on the subject. The scope will be used mostly for measuring fast digital signals, and as part of the initial purchase I will also buy two single-ended FET probes. The contenders are:Rigol MSO8204 scope, plus 2 x Rigol RP7150S probesSiglent SDS6204A scope, plus 2 x Siglent SAP2500 probesThe package cost of either option is almost identical, at around US$15,000. Hence cost is not a factor in choosing one vs the other.I am aware there are threads for each of these scopes. But if anyone has used both, or has opinions on why one is better than the other, I'd love to hear it.Thanks.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 06:45:23 pm
content: Quote from: frankvh2 on October 24, 2022, 04:49:16 pmWhat fast digital signal? Most of fast digital signals today are differential...Single ended probe is not optimal for those.What speeds? What risetimes?Both of these scopes are decent devices. As tv84 said, Sighound36 has MSO8000 and also used SDS6000A. He might be able to directly compare them. Both devices will do standard things, eye etc.I did try MSO8000 shortly but never used it for real work. I can't really compare them directly because of that. I do use SDS6000 series scope and like the concept. I think they will basically be roughly comparable on basic features, Siglent is a little newer and has some options Rigol does not (and vice versa). If you have questions about Siglent I might be able to answer.But since this is not entry level money (with two active probes ) you should really try to see if you can get demonstration or trial device to try it out.

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 07:31:06 pm
content: Have both scopes, the Siglent is better for tighter low noise power measurments, bigger screen. The Rigol just has more horsepower, small screen, but I like it's gui and its felxibility & apps. Both are good scopes, and deliver a lot of bang per buck as you chaps across the pond say. The digital logic channels are useful tool.Recently I've gone all Lecroy in the lab, still run both Rigol & Siglent in home labs both on the audio side.If you wish for more information do PMSighound

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 08:10:14 pm
content: Quote from: Sighound36 on October 24, 2022, 07:31:06 pmThat's a bit brief.Boot time ?Fan noise ?Memory/sampling management ?Which maintains best sampling rate/mem depth with all channels active ?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 08:24:37 pm
content: Quote from: Sighound36 on October 24, 2022, 07:31:06 pmI'd look at a used Lecroy with a bunch of software options for this kind of money.I agree with 2N3055 here: a differential probe is much more useful to look at high speed signals. Especially since many of the high speed busses are differential nowadays. And using a differential probe as a single ended one, makes grounding the probe easier.

author: frankvh2
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 11:04:37 pm
content: I've looked at used scopes, and I do like the concept. In my home lab I have a nice 1 GHz Agilent scope from eBay. But within the business it's very difficult to persuade people to spend thousands of dollars on equipment, then explain to them they're spending that money on used gear with essentially zero warranty. It's far easier to get approvals on new gear. That's just what they know.Your points are well taken with regards to diff probes vs single-ended. I think I'll reconsider the probe choices.One thing I like about the Siglent scope is dedicated 5 GS/s digitizers for each channel. That scales nicely when all 4 channels are in being used.Thanks.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 11:24:24 pm
content: For a business you typically don't buy used equipment from Ebay but from a (used) equipment dealer that offers service and warranty. Yes, many used equipment dealers have an Ebay outlet (which could make it easy to find them) but there are many more that have their own website and don't bother with Ebay at all. In addition, you can typically get extended warranty service contracts from A-brand manufacturers that are essentially insurances against needing to spend lots of money on a repair.In the past couple of years I have bought a couple of as-good-as-new test equipment from a used test equipment dealer. In both cases the units even had a couple of years of manufacturer warranty left.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 08:31:03 am
content: Quote from: frankvh2 on October 24, 2022, 11:04:37 pmYes 5GSa/s is native sampling rate however default settings runs ESR for 10 GSa/s sampling.I have the western release SDS6204A as my demo/personal scope if there's anything further you need know about it.As yet we haven't had call for either of the 2.5 GHz active probes but I do still have the 1 GHz one which I got with a previous demo, a SDS5054X.We have a thread for the SDS6000A range here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds6000-pro-10-and-12-bit-dso-coming/Please excuse the URL as the west didn't get the 10 and 12 bit models.

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 11:28:35 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 24, 2022, 08:10:14 pmYes it was a bit brief as I was about to go out TT, but I'm not a salesman hereI've owned the Rigol 8000 longer than the Siglent SDS6000, yes the Siglent has a less noisy fan and yes the Siglent has better sample per amount of channels active. However, its very rare I use more than two channels for those scopes.You have to appreciate that not everything on EEV revolves around Siglent TT, I do like the brand and believe they have made good progress with the ability to compete with in T&E market well. However, like Guinness it’s not a one size fits all product other people will prefer other products its human nature. If there was no 'hacking' of T&E equipment many brands would not be in the position they are now pure and simpleRecently I've been debating whether to purchase the new Siglent SSA5000 analyser with the big 26.5Ghz BW its great looking package with decent features and the price is well trying to compete more with the mian stream guys which is fair as they have stepped up a gear or two. However, the phase noise is 105dbc/Hz, the RSA 5065 is 108dbc/hz already and has a hdmi output so I plumped for a quality used R&S FSV with a host of quality upgrades & upgraded clock option and warranty for very close cost to the 26Ghz Siglent version. Other will feel differentIf I were using more channels, I would be using the Lecroy pure and simple or wishing to look seriously in depth at signals that we work with.Nctnico & 2N3055 have a very valid point with probes, I've mentioned this before when purchasing ANY scope look at what you are using it for it and which probes are BEST suit to those applications.My suggestions would be the following a quality HVDP/1Ma resolution quality current probe/Dedicated rail probe/Quality passive probes/ a couple of 1Ghz (min) Differential probe/Co-ax transmission line probe/active probes min 500Mhz/factory 75 Ohm adapters/differential common mode probe. I do have optically isolated probes as well for smps accurate high side measurements.These items tend get over looked when purchasing any scope, so please do bear this in mind when looking at a new scope purchase.I did a tot up of all of the Lecroy probes I have for the personal lab, they come to more than the cost of a fully loaded Wavepro HD so do your research and look at what you REALLY require not just what is desirable.Sighound

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 06:47:20 pm
content: Quote from: Sighound36 on October 25, 2022, 11:28:35 amI think you misunderstood, I wanted to know more about your experiences with the MSO8k.

author: JehTeh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2022, 03:25:28 pm
content: I can chime in a bit regarding the MSO 8k if there are any questions as well. Sighound certainly has a lot more experience with it, but I can offer a North American perspective.No active probes for it yet though, the project needing those is currently on hold, so for the time being I have a relatively fancy Rigol here on my bench that has mostly been used for low speed stuff. I toyed around with the eye diagrams on an SBC we are using (just using the included single ended probe) which was fun but certainly not a deep dive. I tried a cursory measurement of one of our crystal oscillators as well - the fast passive probes indicate 1.6pF capacitance, which to me sounds pretty good for a passive probe, and the measurement looked pretty reasonable (although the input impedance of the probe is only 500 Ohms - something to be aware of).I do have a separate logic analyser but I have been using the logic probe we got bundled with it and quite like it, it isn't as full featured as a USB unit talking to siggrok but it works more than well enough that I have not touched the discrete LA since I set this up. The only annoyance is you can't search through the logic channels, only the 4 analog channels post decode.The memory depth is great and is something I have used the most, and am really loving it. The UI certainly slows down when requesting full memory depth (especially when 'zooming in' - otherwise nice and responsive) but when you are debugging a complicated BMS with lots of digital bits and wake/sleep trigger sources, having a massive memory depth and doing a long capture makes life much easier.There are a few bugs I have noticed as well. Some super minor, like channel labels getting stuck off screen, others annoying like some of the decoders not working if you start with a zoomed out capture on a greater than 50ms timebase (regardless of memory depth setting. CAN, for example, which I have been working with a lot lately of course).I have used the 5000 series a fair bit and the 8k is just a lot better all around, except maybe the extra lag in the already terrible bug fixing response times from Rigol. It does also lack the bode plot stuff but this is not something I have ever used. No experience with the equivalent Siglent.

author: frankvh2
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 28, 2022, 12:49:28 am
content: Thanks for the comments. We also have some Rigol MSO5000 units, and they're great value for the money, and pleasant to use. We use them quite a lot.The available 2.5 GHz diff probes for the Siglent look very nice, and are reasonably priced, so they're certainly an attraction to going that way.One of the engineers here was telling me yesterday how important having a large screen is. He uses the SPI decoder quite a bit, to look at the output of an ADC. So he has lots of traces on his screen - the analog channel, the SPI signals, and the decoded SPI data. He finds the MSO5000 screen too small for all this, and is pushing for bigger screens. That would appear to be a benefit of the Siglent.Thanks.

author: Barleyman
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 05:26:52 pm
content: A bit of necromancy here.I'm doing this exact same decision, except for a 1GHz scope. Rigol now has MSO 8000A-series, which boosts the bandwith by 50%, so you get 1.5Ghz instead of 1GHz and so on. They also give you 2x 1.5GHz passive probes with the scope, Siglent makes you cough up monies for that separately.8000A-series is also cheaper than the 8000-series right now (well no idea how long it's been like that), so this seems like a no brainer this moment if you want Rigol.I'm not intending to go beyond USB 2.0 Hi-speed so I think I'll manage with 2 single ended probes for that, in any case 1.5GHz active probe from Rigol is punitively expensive for something that's good to have.. I could also hook it up to the isolating transformer to do differential on the cheap.I was leaning Siglent for the 5GSA and better hi-res mode, but that sale on 8000A-series has flipped me.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 06:16:30 pm
content: 1.5 GHzpassiveprobes? You sure?What's the capacitive loading, and the impedance at 1.5GHz?

author: phs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 06:47:02 pm
content: Just in case you missed checking out this new series (D/MHO5000):https://int.rigol.com/products/detail/DHO5000None of them in use here, yet, but keeping them on the future possibilities list...Good luck with your decision!

author: Barleyman
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 07:01:53 pm
content: Unless they're barefaced being dishonest about it, that's exactly what both Rigol and Siglent claim. 1.6pF and low-z 500R for Rigol RP6150A, Siglent RP6150A (note the names..) claims 1.8pF and 500R and gives you a lot more performance data. Presuming they're the same probe except for the spiffy connector for Rigol, Siglent's data probably matches fairly well for Rigol as well.Rigol:https://int.rigol.com/Images/RP6150AUserGuideCNEN_tcm7-3146.pdfSiglent:https://siglentna.com/product/sp6150a-1-5-ghz-oscilloscope-probe/There's discussion about Siglent's version here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sp6150a-passive-1-5-ghz/

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 11:08:13 am
content: 1.6pF is impressively low, but it's still 66 Ohms at 1.5 GHz.IMHO any scope 500 MHz or above really needs active probes. It's pointless not to have them because the load from any passive probe dramatically distorts the signal being probed.It's a significant issue with even lower bandwidth. I have on my desk a shiny new Siglent SDS3034XHD, rated 350 MHz. The probes that came with it say 10pF, which at 350 MHz is just 45 Ohms. (But it could be worse - the probes that came with my Agilent MSOX3104X are 11pF!)

author: Barleyman
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 01:04:08 pm
content: Depends on what you're trying to do. For debugging 480Mbit USB it should be fine as long as you figure out the voltage division happening. The base 500MHz probe might be better for that purpose, but I've not tested it.. Anyways, imperfect tool usually beats no tool and justifying purchase of a 1GHz differential probe would be uphill battle since vast majority of the work is low frequency analogue, with some interest in seeing potential ringing happening in fast edges like this or power circuits.Now buying a high voltage differential probe is perfectly justified as I need to see mains vs triac. But those peter out at around 200MHz

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 01:51:10 pm
content: Quote from: Barleyman on December 12, 2024, 07:01:53 pmI have SP6150A here to pair with SDS6204A but not tested it in detail yet.Also SAP1000 active probe and various signal sources including a nice Leo Bodnar 30ps pulser.Gets interesting examining probing effects ......endorsing the fact that taking any measurement itself effects the measurement.We had a nice little thread on this matter..... a couple of posts:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/probe-into-probes-whats-up/msg4678768/#msg4678768https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/probe-into-probes-whats-up/msg4684580/#msg4684580

author: Barleyman
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 06:15:27 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 13, 2024, 01:51:10 pmHow do you do the HF compensation exactly? I can see from your images that the uncalibrated 500MHz probe is what it is but after calibration it's radically improved. I mean, cheap old probes have this screw you can tweak with a plastic bit to improve them a bit but somehow, I do doubt that's what's going on here. Is this a Siglent scope software feature?Also WRT to the standard issue 500MHz probe you tested there, these low-z probes are rather different beasts, I'm not quite sure what to expect. USB HS line has theoretical 45R single ended impedance (but let's be realistic here) so feeding that to a ~150R+50R load (at 500MHz) would already drop the voltage by ~20% and at the leading edge it'd be much more significant. Very similar as your uncompensated image shows.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 08:08:56 pm
content: Quote from: Barleyman on December 13, 2024, 06:15:27 pmTypically the HF compensation requirement is 1 MHz with 1ns risetime.This is specified in the attachment in this post where I question why one couldn't use a 10 MHz Bodnar pulser:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/playing-with-probes-guessing-game/msg4735067/#msg4735067

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 08:19:37 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on December 13, 2024, 11:08:13 amI disagree. Take the Tektronix P6156 probe as an example of a passive Low-Z probe which has a capacitance of less than 1pf with a bandwidth of 3.5GHz (10x and 20x attenuators). An active probe won't do any better in that respect as the impedance of the input capacitance dominates the load the probe poses to the circuit.

author: Barleyman
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 14, 2024, 06:24:00 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 13, 2024, 08:08:56 pmAh, so you are indeed talking about the trimmer caps the probes have. I was imagining some fancier procedure. Sure, yeah, that's fairly basic stuff and easy to do. Often the scopes have a calibration pin with square wave for this very purpose.In any case, I'll put in (purchase request) order next week, the one thing to find out is if the free "software bundle" Rigol distributor in UK shows is valid. They seem to be rather relaxed about updating their web pages when promotions end.. I could also get the thing from eleshop.eu, but buying "local" is just easier since the brexit thing.Yes, I'm aware some people on Santa's naughty list have scripts to activate said software package for free. I would never, you cannot prove I did.

author: points2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2024, 11:23:38 pm
content: hi,just an idea :why no answer vs these basic but nice & straightforward questions from 2N3055 ?Quote from: 2N3055 on October 24, 2022, 06:45:23 pmIf anyone wants a "nice" device to play with (without answering 2N3055's questions) : no brainer ! Go for it guy : many scopes on the market...But if only result matters => back to basic => if you know the rise-time of the signal => you know what scope you need.I guess it's all about digital signal thus => it is a repetitive signal => a sampling scope is the right choice, not a RT-scope.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2024, 11:32:13 pm
content: Quote from: points2 on December 14, 2024, 11:23:38 pmFast depends on the mode of use.In Digital mode the waveform bears little resemblance to the same waveform in analog mode.What matters most is the probing mechanism used so to impact the waveform in the least possible manner.Check out the posts I made on this and follow the links.Without tests on the edge we cannot know how our probes (or scope) will perform when pushed.