Siglent SDS6204 versus Wavesurfer 4104HD versus R&S RTA4K-COM, which to choose ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 01:39:49 pm
content: I know this is a difficult question to answer, there are a lot of "what" "if" and "for what" that needs to be asked....I'm in the situation that I'm going to get a new (1 GHz) scope soon. Budget is around €10K (ex VAT), and I'm looking at these 3 scopes currently (I'm using a Keysight MSOX3024T at the moment).I know that I need to spend the same amount (at least) if I need 4 probes, but leave that out of the equation for the moment.Primarily I need 4 channels, logic inputs are a "plus", but not 100% needed. I need to be able to have good "web integration/remote capabilities" with the instrument.The 3 instruments I'm circling around is:1) Siglent SDS6204A (I know, 2 GHz, but at the same budget as the others):https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS6204A.html2) R&S RTA4K-COM deal:https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rohde-Schwarz-RTA4K-COM4-SP.html3) LeCroy Wavesurfer 4104HD:https://www.distrelec.de/en/fully-loaded-oscilloscope-bundle-4x-1ghz-12-bit-teledyne-lecroy-wavesurfer-4104hd/p/30159891(anyone that I forgot about?)I'm leaning a little towards the LeCroy because of the 12 bit, the R&S is probably at the lowest end of the list.The Siglent is nice, but is it "mature" and stable (and it would save me some money, or I could go for 2 GHz for the same amount) ?Again, its super hard to answer, but what would you do, and why ??

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 02:00:14 pm
content: The only one who can answer that question is yourself... try to make a list with pros & cons first and see what features are important to you. In the end the best choice depends on what you want to use the oscilloscope for. You already have a Keysight MSOX3024T; what is it that annoys you the most about it? And what do you like about it?And why not look at Tektronix?

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 02:04:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 18, 2022, 02:00:14 pmYeah, I know this is the right answer to my questionI think I was looking for something "hidden" that I didn't think of, some experience from users that would rule one or more of the instruments out, wishful thinkingThe MSOX, primarily its the bandwidth that is the problem, the 1 GHz version of it is simply out of my budget. The "small" screen is also no joy. Other than that, I'm perfectly ok with it.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 02:10:29 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on February 18, 2022, 02:04:57 pmI think member Sighound36 would be the best for that bunch of scopes.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 02:16:17 pm
content: Personally I'd go for the R&S as an allround daily driver. The user interface is very efficient. Having things like averaging, high-res as math traces as Siglent / Lecroy does prevents turning these on/off quickly just to do some quick checks on a signal. The Lecroy is nice but it runs on an underpowered platform and does not have all the goodies you get from their higher end platforms.However, if all you are after is more bandwidth, I'd look on the used market for a high frequency companion scope. Besides bandwidth and memory depth you won't gain much compared to the MSOX3024T you already have.Edit: Forum member RBBVNL9 is working on a series of videos with an in-depth comparison of a Keysight, R&S and Siglent scope. He already finished & post a few episodes. The videos are not showing the exact the models you are after but the UI design and operation is pretty similar.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 02:51:51 pm
content: BTW: a limitation of Lecroy scopes is that the post trigger delay is typically limited to 10000 divisions (this seems to be the case for the Wavesurfer HD series as well). I have ran into situations with the Lecroy scope I have where the limited amount of delay wasn't enough. Siglent SDS6000 is limited to only 5000 divisions.Most other DSOs I have worked with (including the R&S RTM3004) allow little over a second of delay at the shortest time/div setting.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 02:53:59 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 18, 2022, 02:51:51 pmThats exactly the type of input I had hoped forI'm watching RBBVNL9's video right now. I love the R&S web interface (if the RTA4K is the same...)

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 02:56:17 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on February 18, 2022, 01:39:49 pmHello,perhaps, but you get all options. The RTA4004 has overall 4 GB memory. It has 2 same 8 channels logic probes. The sample rate and memory for the digital channels are the best. The waveform generator is the best.But the noise in lower sensible ranges are not good.tv84 wrote: "I think member Sighound36 would be the best for that bunch of scopes"Yes this is correct and he dislike the RTA4004Best regardsegonottoPS.:cgroen wrote: "I love the R&S web interface (if the RTA4K is the same...)". RTB RTM and RTA have almost the same web interface.But I belief Lecroy has a very good PC-program for their scopes. Perhaps you must pay for it.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 03:22:24 pm
content: Quote from: egonotto on February 18, 2022, 02:56:17 pmAre you referring to MAUI Studio? It's definitely a beauty -https://teledynelecroy.com/mauistudio/It's the benefit of developing scope software for running on Win10 platforms.Anyone can get a demo license and play a little to have the LeCroy feeling. I've spent some time with it and concluded that I would need a few more PhD's to be able to navigate a scope like these ones that some of you guys use.

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 03:35:58 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on February 18, 2022, 03:22:24 pmHello,yes. I have the free version on my old computer. But it lasts 20 until 30 minutes to boot this computer.Best regardsegonotto

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 03:37:57 pm
content: The MAUI Studio, is "only" for Win based scopes ? (and that excludes the 4104HD if I'm correct?)

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 04:24:26 pm
content: AFAIK Wavesurfer use Win CE, Waverunner and HDO using Win10.Comparing 4000HD with RTA4000 on lecroy website:http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/wavesurfer4000hd-v-rto.pdfSame with Tektronix 4 series:http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/wavesurfer4000hd-v-tek.pdfSame with Keysight 4000X:http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/wavesurfer4000hd-v-keysight-s-series.pdf

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 04:43:04 pm
content: These are the scopes you can choose in MAUI StudioPro:Code:HDO----------WavePro HD None/MSOWaveRunner 8000HD None/MSOHDO9000 None/MSO/HDA125/MS500HDO8000A None/MSOHDO8000 None/MSOMDA800A None/MSOMDA800 None/MSOHDO6000A None/MSOHDO6000B None/MSOHDO6000 None/MSOHDO4000A None/MSOHDO4000 None/MSOHRO 6 Zi None/MS500LabMaster-----------LabMaster 10 Zi-A None/HDA125LabMaster 10 Zi None/HDA125LabMaster 9 Zi-A None/HDA125LabMaster 9 Zi None/HDA125WaveMaster-----------WaveMaster 8 Zi-B None/HDA125/MS500WaveMaster 8 Zi-A None/HDA125/MS500WaveMaster 8 Zi None/HDA125/MS500SDA 8 Zi-B None/HDA125/MS500SDA 8 Zi-A None/HDA125/MS500SDA 8 Zi None/HDA125/MS500DDA 8 Zi-B None/HDA125/MS500DDA 8 Zi-A None/HDA125/MS500DDA 8 Zi None/HDA125/MS500WavePro------------WavePro HD None/MSOWavePro 7 Zi-A None/HDA125/MS500WavePro 7 Zi None/HDA125/MS500SDA 7 Zi-A None/HDA125/MS500SDA 7 Zi None/HDA125/MS500DDA 7 Zi-A None/HDA125/MS500DDA 7 Zi None/HDA125/MS500WaveRunner---------------WaveRunner 8000HD None/MSOWaveRunner 9000 None/MSOWaveRunner 8000 None/MSOWaveRunner 6 Zi None/HDA125/MS500WaveRunner 6 MZi None/HDA125/MS500WaveSurfer---------------WaveSurfer 510 None/MS500

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 04:54:58 pm
content: Those competitive comparisons are funny as always. Lecroy is better for your bench because it is 43% lighter!

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:28:13 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 18, 2022, 04:54:58 pmYes, I did see these, some of the info is ok, some of it isSo the MAUI is not for the 4104HD (if I'm correct).The R&S (and the 4104HD) are good deals as they are bundles. The Siglent takes quite a bit more if one would need the options (which I probably don't need "right now", but still....So far I think the list in prioritized sequence is:1) R&S2) LeCroy3) SiglentI will keep investigating, if any of you experienced guys have more input, I'm all ears !

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 07:35:11 pm
content: SDS6204A arriving later next week if I am to believe our freight forwarder.I'll have a quick look at it and maybe post some findings in the SDS6000A thread then it will go to Defpom so he can do a video on it. He has a SDS2104X Plus so quite familiar with the UI.But sorry no teardown video for this puppy, someone else can do that.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 07:38:09 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 18, 2022, 07:35:11 pmLooking forward to more info on the SDS6204 then, I find it a little confusing what extras one should order for the scope to get a "complete" set with all the decoders, digital inputs and awg output.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 07:49:00 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on February 18, 2022, 07:38:09 pmNot sure myself what's offered in the EU market as there seems to be a promo running for the MSO option in the US. You need ask your supplier if it's available over there as it represents a healthy saving on the SPL2016 and MSO license.For the other options and indicative US pricing see the US site:https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds6000a-digital-storage-oscilloscope/Of course like with other Siglent gear the basic decodes are included for free.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 08:02:43 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on February 18, 2022, 07:38:09 pmYou did not specify primary focus...To be honest all these 3 are good scopes in it's class.There is no replacement for bandwidth if you need it.There is no replacement for resolution if you need it.If scope doesn't have specific analysis you need, there is no replacement.Can you put together a list of requirements ("absolutely need" and "nice to have").Do you need Aero protocols? Do you need Jitter/Eye analysis?

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 06:09:49 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 18, 2022, 08:02:43 pmIts hard for me to make a specific list, I'm not sure what the future brings. Most of the work is digital (and some power supply stuff), interface to memory systems, ethernet etc.Most of the work that involves decoding (SPI, CAN, I2C etc) I use my Saleae Pro 16 for, I think I only a handful of times have uses my MSOX scope for decoding anyway.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 11:48:46 am
content: Quote from: cgroen on February 19, 2022, 06:09:49 amBuying equipment for all the unforseen circumstances is expensive business. I'm sure there are 100 GHz scopes that would serve you well...On a serious note, for what you are saying, actually SDS6204A might be the ticket. 2GHz bandwidth and Jitter/eye might be interesting, and it is only one of the group with the bandwidth and that kind of focus.Also math and analysis capability is more advanced.You do get all the basic protocol decoders with it in case you might need it.As a side note, on a topic of decoding on a scope..... It all depends.Logic goes like this: you have to look at your digital channel in analog domain to be able to see signals are in spec. You check levels, eye, jitter, etc.. to make sure your signal integrity is OK. That is what I consider hardware level debug.Then you start checking actual messages and data being exchanged is OK. That is higher level, protocol debug. A software level if you will..But sometimes you can have not so obvious crosstalk for instance. Errors on a bus only when certain messages are being exchanged. Is it your code sending wrong bit sequence, or there is some electrical interference on a bus distorting signal so it gets changed enough that is decoded wrong by receiver?By setting scope to look at it on analog channel, and at the same time decoding (and without trouble to keep connecting, disconnecting and reconnecting probing solutions all the time when switching between tools) and/or triggering on analog side (slow risetimes, runts, etc etc) and protocol part (messages, addresses, payload) at the same time, you get things done faster and can catch things you cannot see otherwise. Or at least not that easy.So I agree with you that if you have some hardware that is proven that it has good SI, and you need to debug hundreds of different messages on a software level, that is well done with dedicated protocol analyzer.But there are some protocols (like CAN) that are prone to devices interfering with each other, bus contention, that have to work at large level of electrical noise etc, where fact that you see wrong message in decoder doesn't tell you why and what is the cause.On a SPI bus with single device, where you checked with a scope that edges and levels are clean, you're probably looking at your code.. On CAN bus with dozen devices you need to look deeper to find out where the problem comes from... Hence scope that decodes..... So you can look at exact data packet and also see analog shape.Tool for the job...

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 05:21:56 pm
content: In one of Dave's videos he tests the SDS5104X and finds a problem with using zone trigger and segmented memory (zone trigger not supported in segmented memory mode), I assume that this is not a limitation of the SDS6000, or ?https://youtu.be/oxu19IFHMgc?t=3005

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 05:37:30 pm
content: Have a look at the date of the video..

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 05:40:05 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on February 19, 2022, 05:37:30 pmI know, and I know that's not the same scope, I was just wondering if a similar thing is going on in the SDS6xxx or if Siglent has eliminated that (as I would like that feature to be present in my new scope...)

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 07:10:37 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on February 19, 2022, 05:40:05 pmHello,than your choice is simpler as the RTA4004 has no zone trigger.Best regardsegonotto

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 07:24:30 pm
content: Quote from: egonotto on February 19, 2022, 07:10:37 pmYes, I realize that also, and the same goes for the Wavesurfer if I'm not mistaken

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 07:39:08 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on February 19, 2022, 05:40:05 pmWe'd need to check if using zone triggers and Segmented memory is still a limitation. I don't have time this morning however I will check it later.There have been several FW upgrades since Dave did a review of 5kX so it may have been addressed I can't remember. It may be mentioned in the FW release notes IDK.FYI, 5kX was the first in this range of scopes followed by 2kX Plus and now 6kA of which they all have dual zone triggers.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 07:42:37 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on February 19, 2022, 05:40:05 pmThat was scope with very early firmware. That was fixed within the weeks from that video...I's been more than 2 years...

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 07:43:20 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 19, 2022, 07:42:37 pmThanks! Very good to know!

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 07:46:02 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 19, 2022, 07:39:08 pmOn a SDS6000A zone trigger works just fine segmented memory.. That was an early version of firmware on SDSD5000X that didn't have zones fully implemented yet.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 08:00:47 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on February 19, 2022, 05:40:05 pmI was too lazy for the full answer...

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 06:56:15 pm
content: You should not blindingly believe every misinformation posted in this forum.Average and ERES as Acquisition modesWhile it’s true that LeCroy DSOs never destroy the original sample data (for a reason!), hence will not have alternative acquisition modes like Peak Detect, Average or ERES, the same is not true for Siglent.Every contemporary Siglent DSO except for the SDS2000X Plus has four true acquisition modes: Normal, Peak Detect, Average, ERES. For the time being, at least the SDS6000 provides Avg and ERES as math functions as well. Consequently, with a Siglent SDS6000 you have the choice, if you want it quick and dirty (acquisition mode) or the scientific way (math function) where you can apply it individually to each channel, even both at the same time thanks to the formula editor, and still have the unaffected original sample data available for different analysis purposes.Long trigger delayLong trigger delays, together with peak detect were the crouches required in some memoryless storage scopes in the past and even today. Do you really need ridiculously long trigger delays in a DSO where you can have up to 500 Mpts record length?The SDS6000 can use 1 second of trigger delay at a time base of 100 µs/div. That is a 1:10000 ratio, just like LeCroy. You can still use the zoom mode, where you could go down as low as 100 ps/div.Zone TriggerIsn’t it funny how the same sources that spread false information about Average and ERES acquisition and warn about being limited to “only” 5000 (actually 10000) times the time base setting for the trigger delay forget to mention goodies like zone trigger at the same time?What is more likely that professionals in need of an upper midrange DSO will be missing – a ridiculously long trigger delay or a zone trigger? Or a DSO that can have up to 500 Mpts record length, for that matter.Likewise, could professionals who need an upper midrange DSO maybe take advantage on 2 GHz bandwidth and true 12-bit(*) converters? And a sample rate, that remains constant no matter what channels are activated?(*) Even when we get only 8 bits, we still benefit from the linearity of a 12-bit ADC, so the high resolution modes up to 16 bits should work very well.About bundle pricing: The Siglent comes as a fairly complete package, no need to pay extra for all the basic stuff like basic protocol triggers and decoders (UART, SPI, I2C, CAN, LIN) or History and Segmented Memory. Even Frequency Response Analysis comes for free. For all the rest, I think the options are priced quite reasonably.EDIT: Clarification on the 12-bit ADC.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 11:22:20 am
content: Quote from: Performa01 on February 20, 2022, 06:56:15 pmThanks a lot for your input!I have now asked for a quote from Batronix in Germany for the 6204 (and the waveform generator and digital inputs...), could well end up being "the one"

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 11:32:04 am
content: Quote from: cgroen on February 21, 2022, 11:22:20 amWhat are your FG requirements...the single channel 25 MHz SAG1021I is pretty basic apart from having an isolated output. If you want more functionality the SDG1032X is the better choice although it doesn't have isolated outputs.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 11:35:04 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 21, 2022, 11:32:04 amI already have a SDG2122X, the SAG was "just" for the isolated output (and if there is possibly anything gained from it being "integrated" with the SDS?)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 11:43:34 am
content: Quote from: cgroen on February 21, 2022, 11:35:04 amOther than the isolated output you seek (check the spec) your SDG2122X will plug and play seamlessly for Bode plot via a USB or LAN connection but of course the SAG is a tiny device that adds to the portability of the whole package rather than also carry the SDG around.Anyways, SAG should be a smart choice and add flexibility to the package.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 01:49:08 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 21, 2022, 11:43:34 amBrilliant that the SDG2122 can "talk" with the scope for Bode plot!I have now issued an order for a SDS6204A with options, THANKS to all who have given me input with this, VERY much appreciated!Delivery time was quoted at 3 weeks, now the hard part begins

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 05:38:58 pm
content: Hello,have fun with your new scope.Best regardsegonotto

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 08:21:08 pm
content: And present it here...

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 08:30:27 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on February 21, 2022, 08:21:08 pmWill do once I get it

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 08:49:44 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on February 21, 2022, 08:30:27 pmIs there something left for us to license?

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 06:01:41 am
content: Quote from: tv84 on February 21, 2022, 08:49:44 pmAbsolutelyGot "only" the logic analyzer and waveform generator options with it

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 11:49:42 am
content: The instrument has arrived (from Batronix, Germany).First impression is WTF, the fans are LOUD! And then 30 seconds or so, they go silentSecond impression is the screen is large!Now there is some "getting to know it"! Need to connect the waveform generator module and the digital inputs etc.Tried with a Leo Bodnar pulser on it, no special settings etc, just hooked it up and took some screenshots: