Is this red clipping hurting any of my speakers? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: CodyRepairShop
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 06:28:45 pm
content: The photo I put is from audacity just from a music file I bring up it does show this type of stuff with all music I have downloaded and paid for but is that hurting my speakers any since i'm using nice very nice speakers but I do like to play em loud sometimes and the music file sounds clean should I be worried any or don't matter?

author: CodyRepairShop
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 06:41:58 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 06, 2016, 06:34:36 pmWell that song you seen on there was from NoCopyRightSounds and there music is free anyhow.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 06:51:00 pm
content: There is no reason it would. And, if you have good speakers and like good sound, you'd hear it if it caused noticeable distorsion.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 06:52:35 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 06, 2016, 06:34:36 pmNo, it's called loudness war and overcompressed dynamic range. A lot of otherwise good music sounds like crap because of this. No hurt to the speakers, actually good for them because they see no high peaks at all. Not good for your ears though.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

author: CodyRepairShop
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 06:56:29 pm
content: Well since I have 2 pairs of speakers in front of me running at the same time all at a 4 ohm load and 1 set is much older 5 years older and the new set only had for a month and yes there is a difference but not a big difference but I don't think there is really much of a difference since the new one is not fully broken in yet I have not played much bass through the new ones so the midrange is not fully there in the new ones but in the older ones there's much more midrange tones but they are a 2 way speaker.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 06:57:33 pm
content: Heh, the radio I'm listening to right now happens to be playing a perfect example of that, very obvious compression, the bass peaks nearly come out less loud than the rest, quite awful :\Besides that, audiophool alert?

author: CodyRepairShop
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 06:58:57 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on August 06, 2016, 06:57:33 pmYa with the radio I try to mess with the antenna if it sounds bad.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 07:09:30 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 06, 2016, 06:34:36 pmUltrasonics in a 48kHz wave file? Nyquist might want to have a word with you.No, this is just another example of loudness war. This doesn't magically go away when you rip from a CD. This only goes away by exclusively buying music from people that give a shit about how it sounds.Downloads can be just fine. Look at the waveform of this song by All Them Witches, it's a loud compressed rock song yet it doesn't clip anywhere. It's a FLAC downloaded from Bandcamp.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 07:14:03 pm
content: Just to be precise... reaching +/-1.0000 doesn't necessarily mean clipping, just that the peaks are set to exactly touch the limits. Those that don't show the red warning just set the limit at 0.9999....

author: CodyRepairShop
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 07:14:31 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on August 06, 2016, 07:09:30 pmOk but what about when I normalize the music file since there is always a slight difference in sound it would sound slightly better after normalizing it since I do that to all of my music.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 07:17:16 pm
content: If the peaks of the waveform are truly clipping (i.e. the top is flat instead of rounded) this can be very bad for your tweeters. Flat tops mean high frequencies which get dumped to the tweeters. Tweeters aren't designed to deal with lots of power and can be burned out by this unexpected attack. This can happen when someone turns up an amp too high and it starts clipping.If purchased music is clipped already, it means that something in the production chain was set too high. I don't know if this is common these days or not. Sounds like a class-action lawsuit to me.

author: CodyRepairShop
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 07:19:19 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on August 06, 2016, 07:14:03 pmBut so then on the most part I may not reach any damage to my speakers then? And what about those bass demos on youtube the audio is definitely not very clean it's all distorted bass because of how loud the sound is when recorded?

author: CodyRepairShop
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 07:22:52 pm
content: Quote from: edpalmer42 on August 06, 2016, 07:17:16 pmNo I don't clip my amplifier that's 300 plus watts rms into a room and i'll be deaf way before then that's LOUD but I already knew about that but thanks for lookin out tho.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 07:31:52 pm
content: That red clipping means the wave form has maxed out and is probably FLAT-LINING at the max level. So rather than having sound-wave oscillations that SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE... the music is now FLAT because there is no "higher number" to put there.It has NOTHING to do with whether you will blow your speaker or not, except for what volume you blast your music at. You will only hear distortion because instead of getting nice waves with distinguishable frequencies and tones, you will get FLAT-LINE or dampening of wave forms at that high level.Think of music like a PHOTOGRAPH. Imagine you are taking a picture on a day with light sky and lots of white clouds. The RED-LINING is like you have turned up the brightness so high that the sky/clouds kind of blends into one WHITISH COLOR and you can't distinguish the blue/clouds/outlines/shapes anymore of the sky. It is just WHITE-WASHED.Same goes for music at the high volume end. Often when you do AUDIO DYNAMIC COMPRESSION (like is done for FM radio transmission) it will take music and squeeze a wider dynamic range into a narrower one, effectively tightening the volume level of the sound. The problem with that is, some types of music (like Classical for one) have certain parts that are very quiet, and some that are very loud. Your ear can distinguish these and it makes sense for certain types of music.Rock music and dance and other pop usually will just be loud all the time. That's why you can get away with both DYNAMIC COMPRESSION and essentially you only need to capture the "top of the wave" variations because that's the only thing changing.For example, if you had values from 0 - 100 representing the audio data, imagine a rock sound like this:87 89 76 89 88 93 94 100 87 98 95.... etc... notice how all levels are mostly above 75.So rather than encoding the full numbers, you could essentially just subtract 75 from each of those numbers and encode a smaller range of numbers (from 0-25) and then just tell the system to "add 75" to the playback when it decodes it.It takes less bits to encode 0-25 than 0-100 range.The problem is when your music ACTUALLY HAS data in it (like Classical) that drops to much lower levels, like 34 35 76 80 98 54 24, etc.... Notice here that you can't really drop the bottom end as much because you have levels which go way lower, like 34.RED-LINING basically is like DYNAMIC COMPRESSION but at 100% setting. It will take levels that may normally be say...98 89 79 88 95 100 123 143 115 109 125 98 99 104 ... etc.... and it chops it to....98 89 79 88 95 100 100 100 100 100 100 98 99 100.Notice that the "100" is what we consider RED-LINE. So you have essentially LOST information in that section of the song. You get no resolution, no detail, no contrast, basically nothing out of that area with the string of 100's because of the RED-LINE, it was maxed.You are better off subtracting 50 from every single part of that data string, and keeping the information. So for example, the string...98 89 79 88 95 100 123 143 115 109 125 98 99 104 ... becomes....48 39 29 38 45 50 73 63 65 59 75 48 49 54.The second line just is the first line minus 50. It is still fitting within the data resolution of the container file format (0-100) but keeps all the information there. It may sound a bit more quiet, but then you can just crank the volume. Normalizing usually will take the BIGGEST VALUE (in the above string it is 73) and will bring that up to 100 (so it adds 27) and then it applies +27 to all other values so that no information is lost. It just sets the ceiling to the biggest number, and everything else below.I hope that makes sense.Bottom line is, you can't damage your speaker unless you actually turn the volume up on the source. If your source is properly encoded and NOT RED-LINED and you crank up the volume enough, you will STILL damage your speaker. Also, if your speaker is not rated to handle the WATTS that your amp puts out, you will damage the speaker. It has nothing to do with RED-LINE in an Audacity file. But you normally would NOT want to record anything or use anything that is RED-LINED because it means that likely it will sound BAD, Distorted or Otherwise not properly recorded.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 07:47:30 pm
content: Quote from: CodyRepairShop on August 06, 2016, 07:22:52 pmI wasn't suggesting that you were clipping your amp, that's just a typical situation. But if the music is already clipped on the CD or on the downloaded file, the effect on your tweeters would be the same. Possible blown tweeters due to excessive power - and possibly at surprisingly low volumes!Ed

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 07:56:22 pm
content: Quote from: edy on August 06, 2016, 07:31:52 pmAFAIK that is not how it's typically done with modern compression though.The whole point is to avoid clipping with compression, i.e. instead of taking98 89 79 88 95 100 123 143 115 109 125 98 99 104And clipping it to98 89 79 88 95 100 100 100 100 100 100 98 99 100The waveform will actually be deformed so as to just touch 100 where it would have been 143 in your initial example but with no clipping, i.e the other points around are attenuated below 100 in some non-linear fashion to "round" the waveform.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 08:02:17 pm
content: If you are having clipping this means the tweeters are getting a lot more high frequency component than the typical design spec, and they will likely be running at a considerable overload. Your 300W amplifier will typically have a tweeter rated for around 10 to 20 W of power dissipation at best, and putting high levels of high frequency power into them will blow them.This could even blow them at ordinary listening levels, depending on the amplifier roll off and the crossover losses, but they are at risk. I know of plenty of power amplifiers that will faithfully amplify a 100kHz signal at almost full power output and feed that to a speaker. Result is a nice expensive set of cooked speakers. Seen that melt the tweeter voice coils into a charred titanium coned mess, and cook the crossover inductors till they fell off the board. Was not cheap to replace the boards and tweeters, though at least you did not have to take the midrange drivers out to get to the crossover, they came out those 5kg of scrap metal mounting holes.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 08:05:36 pm
content: So far as I am aware there are two ways to kill a loudspeaker (assuming they are decent devices rather than 75mm 2 Euro cheapies)1) A DC bias on the output of the amplifier. This normally happens if a power transistor fails and it will kill either your crossover or your tweeter through overheating. Fuses may help here but not everyone likes them.2) Play your music veryVERYVERYLOUDand I'm talking threshold of pain here. Speakers can be mechanically damaged under these circumstances and cones can be torn.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 08:05:59 pm
content: True, it should compress in a non-linear fashion. The way to get that kind of obscene red-lining through most of the file is the recording was peaked out when being recorded (exceeding the ADC sampler ability to distinguish level changes above threshold) or the volume was amplified in Audacity too much without regard to blowing much of the audio past max volume, and the software did the best it could following bad advice.Or, we could be looking at a sample of DubStep.Sort of like this:https://youtu.be/U72NU0zh7YU?t=45s

author: CodyRepairShop
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 08:19:03 pm
content: Everyone i'm not talking about the amplifier for the most part I know everything that a person could know about like a dj I have plenty of friends that are dj's and I ask them about that other stuff but this was a plain simple answer was would that music with that kind of clipping I find on most music either paid or free you still get that red clipping when you go on Audacity and you would see the audio file has clipping I only needed to know if it was ok or if it was damaging the speakers I don't put any more than 30 watts into my speakers that's per channel 2 speakers on each channel on a 2 channel amplifier and that's only at the loudest I would ever go since my speakers go very loud at low volume but why because they have a 90 db per watt sensitivity. I have pa speakers that I use all the time as well so I switch between 1 or the other pending on what i'm doing.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 08:22:58 pm
content: You have shown nothing that anyone could use to answer your question. To make any kind of approximation you'd need to provide the file or at least zoom in at 1:1 ratio on several of those red "peaks" to see how bad they clip (or don't).Have to laugh at DJ's knowing "everything" though.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 08:23:48 pm
content: Quote from: CodyRepairShop on August 06, 2016, 08:19:03 pmWhat track is it? If it is a normal piece of music, recorded properly, it shouldn't look like that. None of my music looks like that in Audacity.Will it damage your speaker? Probably not if you are not blasting it. But as people mention before it may kill your tweeters. The quality of that track is likely not good. Then again, depends on the style of music, you may not hear the difference..... For example, if it is some heavily distorted type of dance music then you will think it is supposed to sound that way.Give me the name of the track/artist and we can find several sources and compare them.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 08:28:57 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on August 06, 2016, 08:05:36 pmNot just mechanical damage but the voice coil can overheat due to not being able to dissipate the heat.I've seen this happen to a relatively small speaker in an intercom, when the volume was turned up too much and someone shouting into the mic. I noticed the speaker sounded very quiet and it physically looked good, so tested the resistance and it was near zero, so after eliminating the cable as a fault, I tore the cone off, looked at the voice coil and noticed it had melted and shorted out.

author: CodyRepairShop
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 08:37:44 pm
content: The track is called Desmeon - Undone (feat Steklo)you can get a free download here:https://www.hive.co/downloads/download/489096/spotlight/

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2016, 08:39:05 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on August 06, 2016, 08:05:36 pmYou are wrong, it really is possible to blow tweeters with a distorted signal. Basically the coil will burn out due to overload - it is a very thin and lightweight wire not designed for a lot of current. The tweeters are not designed for high power (because they almost never see it) and if you push a highly distorted signal into them with high harmonic content (e.g. a clipping amp or distorted original source), you can and will damage them the same as if you have put DC through them - the coils will melt. However, it needs some decent power levels, normal home listening level will likely not destroy anything except for the cheapest speakers.I have seen quite a few blown tweeters in my past when I have worked as a radio sound tech thanks to tone deaf and blind DJs that thought that the yellow and red lights on the consoles are just to make it look cool.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 01:17:25 am
content: To answer your question, playing that file won't harm your speakers unless you deliberately play it at such volumes beyond what your speakers are designed for. It'll just sound like crap.It looks like someone who made that file didn't really know what they were doing. I do a lot of video work and I always aim to have peaks at -10dB. It just gives me that little bit of extra headroom.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 02:10:08 am
content: I don't think 'flatlining' is as innocuous as some people might think. While it may not look threatening in the time domain, itdoeshave an effect on the resulting waveform in the frequency domain ... and quite a serious one. Take a pure 1kHz sine wave and raise the amplitude so that it 'flat lines'. Go far enough and you'll end up with something akin to a square wave. Harmonics galore.It is, by very definition - Clipping.From my experience, speaker damage is most likely from two causes: excessive cone excursion and voice coil overheating. Excluding fault conditions, if you have a system which is capable of handling 300W RMS and you tend to run it under 30W, then you shouldn't have too much to worry about, IMHO.But I didn't say you would have nothing to worry about.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 08:04:02 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 07, 2016, 01:17:25 amAs pointed out, this is not true. It could certainly damage the tweeters at regular listening volumes

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2016, 08:18:19 am
content: Quote from: SteveyG on August 07, 2016, 08:04:02 amThey'd have to be pretty crappy speakers to be honest and someone listening to music way louder than they need to. Based on the waveform he supplied, I doubt he'd have any dramas. However, if the OP would like to supply the file as well, we'd be happy to test it out?

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2016, 07:00:38 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 07, 2016, 08:18:19 amYou mean crappy as JBL concert hall speakers?Because those were the ones I have seen blown quite a lot. And studio monitors as well. We aren't talking a $50 supermarket specials here.