New or used GPS Frequency Standard? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 08:53:51 am
content: When looking for a GPS 10MHz Frequency Standard do I either get some new and for me unknown brands or the green eBay thingies. If I try to find Agilent or main brands like that, do I find old used models.If I want to play with more accurate frequencies, is an old used GPS Frequency Standard from a main brand name best or a Ling Hong Chu from eBay?Do any of you have any recommendations?A bit of info, no I am not trying to surpass NASA but I would like to know my Frequency Standard is significantly better than the integrated you get on scopes, frequency counters and so on.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 10:00:23 am
content: Currently there are many for sale on Ebay which are based on an A-brand GPSDO module. The advantage is that these have well aged OCXO. I have bought one (to have an extra GPSDO -go figure-) and it seems to work very well when compared to a new GPSDO design. In the end a GPSDO isn't black magic; the most important thing is to have good GPS reception. The modules from Ebay which are built from decommissioned telco equipment likely to have more modern (=more sensitive) receivers compared to receivers from the 80's.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 10:31:22 am
content: Now that the source of Oscilloquartz (Star4) , seems to have "dried up"I'd go for a Used Samsung like this one , good critic on time-nuts & herehttps://www.ebay.com/itm/254609356856https://www.ebay.com/itm/293878344715Raw board (NOTE 6v) , you need a 50pol to 2.5mm printhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/303377095479via Bidding , usually ends on 30..35$https://www.ebay.com/itm/265135016057I'd prob. get the first (finished model)Or a Trimble Thunderbolt (Time nut favorite)Needs 5v, +12v og -12vhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/332390729098I use this 26dB Timing antenna (N conn)https://www.ebay.com/itm/402232021010You could try a "Puck" in the window first./Bingo

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 12:48:08 pm
content: Thank you both, I am planning to "trow" an GPS antenna on the roof to get the best reception.I have the possibility to get a HP Z3805A 10811 DOCXO 16 channel GPS for nearly nothing and it has run in an unknown time. Is it a good unit to use and rely upon?

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 05:46:10 pm
content: Quote from: FriedMule on April 27, 2021, 12:48:08 pmA Z3805A is a nice gpsdo - If it's nearly nothing grab it.You will end up with several others in a short time anywaysThis stuff is addictiveI have a Z3801A (Older sibling to the 3805)- And suspect my GPS receiver might be dead ...That's a bad thing , as working replacements are nearly impossible to get. Well there is a company that makes a "Clone" that speaks "Oncore VP" , but i heard it was quite expensive.You might want to grab a Samsung anyway , before they are all gone - $100 is not bad - The extra $50 in VAT + Customs fee is ... But $150 isn't that bad too.The "Pro/brand" ones usually only lasts for a period , then all the scrap stations they were pulled from are gone.Remember to fire up LadyHeather to dicipline them , she can manage both.You'd prob need a few USB->RS232 adapters (db9) , or some real ComPorts

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 08:37:43 pm
content: I did look at the Samsung but would it not be better to shoot the sky with a GPS Rubidium Frequency Standard instead?I mean if it gets addictive? :-)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 04:38:46 am
content: Quote from: FriedMule on April 27, 2021, 12:48:08 pmDon't get too hung up on perceived 'quality' of old HP gear. Anything over US $50 is probably too much to spend on it.

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 07:31:11 am
content: On eBay is there several units everything from old and abused to new and prices from cheap to "are you insane" :-)I have looked at thishttps://www.ebay.de/itm/124698714192unit but again can you trust it to be accurate?

author: MIS42N
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 09:10:56 am
content: If all you are looking for is something a bit more accurate than what you've got, just about any GPSDO should do. I have been experimenting, build my own. Today I was finally able to use some decent equipment to see what actually came out of the latest circuit. It was a usable 10MHz +- 0.01Hz square wave, 3V p-p into 50 ohm, from less than $20 (Australian) parts (excluding power supply and GPS + antenna - the power supply is a junk box 8V DC wallwart, the GPS module and antenna can be quite expensive but in this case about another $20). The focus was on lowest cost rather than best performance. I haven't tested commercial units but one could guess they should do as well or better. Take note of the recommendation by others that a decent GPS signal is required. I sent the NMEA output of the GPS to VisualGPS for analysis (quite an old program, but it gives you important information like HDOP, view of the sky, signal strength).If you need better than 1ppb accuracy (i.e. 10MHz +- 0.01Hz) then you may need to do some searching. But for most people the 1ppb is more than good enough.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 10:06:32 am
content: QuoteThat's a X72 Rubi inside that box.Pro: It's smallCon: In general small is NOT good for Rubi'sSomewhat pricey for an X72 w. a tripple distamp , in a box/Bingo

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 10:08:13 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 28, 2021, 04:38:46 amThe OCXO is prob worth 2 x that amount alone, if it behaves.I'd give $100 in a heartbeatBut would prob go for a Samsung , that havent had 15+ years of on time.And the newer Lea6T is prob. much more (1PPS) accurate than the VP/UT that's in the Z3805Never knew that there was an "original" Z3805 w. DOCXO 10811 and a 16-chan receiver.Does not "compute" ....https://time-nuts.febo.narkive.com/BeaMLAgl/what-s-best-an-hp-58503a-z3805a-or-z3801a-upgraded-to-58503a/Bingo

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 07:10:28 pm
content: What I am not sure of is the GPS part, I understand that the frequency standard "asks" the satellites about the precise "tick" and then correct for any errors and continue to count on its own until next contact?How often does it happen?How much can the frequency standard go out of accuracy?How accurate is the satellites?What I am aiming at / asking for is, if a trashcan-unit with a stability of pudding was contacting the satellites every second would it maybe be more accurate than a top of the pop unit that only asks once a year. :-)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 11:02:34 pm
content: Quote from: bingo600 on April 28, 2021, 10:08:13 amBut be honest: is that because the OCXO has such great specs or just because it has HP printed on it? Ebay is filled with more modern OCXOs which have decent specs and probably cost less. $100 buys you a very nice new OCXO as well.

author: MIS42N
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 11:03:58 pm
content: Quote from: FriedMule on April 28, 2021, 07:10:28 pmThe details of how it works is complex, I can't claim to understand it all. The satellites broadcast continuously, the receiver uses techniques to resolve each satellite signal from the total received signal. I believe the receiver could calculate its position every millisecond if necessary. The sort used for GPSDO don't need to, as the position is usually fixed. Instead they produce something (a frequency or timing signal) based on the received data. A common timing signal is one pulse per second, the accuracy varies with the receiver. The cheapest modules with good reception can vary hundreds of nanoseconds. The best are around 10 nanoseconds. Almost all receive only the L1 band, but dual band receivers are appearing. This allows the receiver to calculate and compensate for ionospheric conditions that the L1 only can't. The error then is very low.Some receivers can generate a reference signal (say 10MHz) directly, maybe 'good enough' for what you want. A GPSDO uses the timing signal (a minimum of once a second, but some like old Jupiter receivers produced a 40kHz signal) to compare a local oscillator to the signal and correct the oscillator if necessary. This answers one of your questions, the satellite data is checked at least once a second.The usual disciplining technique is a phase locked loop, in which case the oscillator long term will produce 10,000,000 cycles every second, within the accuracy of the satellites themselves. They are corrected by signals from the ground every day. Reputedly the long term error is less than 1 part in 10E14.Most people are interested in the shorter term actual frequency of the local oscillator. This depends on the quality of the oscillator and the disciplining algorithm. Even a trash can pudding when disciplined is more accurate than just about any standalone piece of equipment (excluding rubidium or cesium beams). Your application determines your desired accuracy. My current aim is to act as a refernce for WSPR amateur radio signals, these need to be quite accurate and stable. 1 part in 10E9 is adequate.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 11:56:56 pm
content: I've been really happy with the Leo Bodnar Mini. Seems to pick up signal anywhere, even in my basement lab, and can be set to almost any needed frequency. Only downside is I don't know if it can be used with Lady Heather.http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=107&zenid=4a68ee4ed7bd23f9b353e3dbdd6cb616

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 11:58:50 pm
content: Great answers from your all!Sorry for this question but now does my ignorance shine in all its glory! :-)Let's say you have two units, one with an accuracy of 10E8 and one 10E14, if they both check every seconds, how much can they manage to differ in one second? Are we not talking about both being equal accurate?What I need and what I would like differs a great deal, I can easily get by with a 10E6 but to fun and giggles would 10E14 or even higher and pleasure my internal NERD! :-)I am of cause not interested in paying for a new top of the range atomic clock but it looks like you can get a lot of fun for <$1000-$1500

author: MIS42N
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 01:45:05 am
content: Quote from: FriedMule on April 28, 2021, 11:58:50 pmMy limited experience is 1 part in 10E9 (i.e. 10MHz +- 0.01 Hz) is easily achieved. There are quite a few factors that affect the outcome - the oscillator (usually stable to 10E11 or 12), the control voltage applied to the OCXO, usually from a DAC. Because the DAC has discrete steps (e.g. 16 bit DAC from a 5V source has steps of about 75µV) the control is not totally accurate (consider the oscillator has a sensitivity of 0.1V per Hz - a change of 1V would change the frequency by 10Hz - then 75µV changes the frequency by 750µHz. That could produce an error of up to 3.7 * 10E-11 that can't be corrected). Then there's the power supply to the DAC. A typical 7805 regulator can have a 1mV/°C change due to temperature changes. If the control voltage is 2V for example, then this affects the control voltage by 2/5 or 0.2mV. Then there's how the intrinsic variability of the resolved GPS time due to ionospheric conditions, satellite errors, transitions from one satellite to another, etc etc. The usual technique is to average over a period (e.g. have a PLL with a long time constant) because the statistical average is more accurate than the individual readings.1 part in 10E10 is achieved with care. Usually enough to have a stable environment (temperature doesn't change quickly).1 part in 10E11 requires attention and compensation for temperature effects, and a decent DAC.1 part in 10E12 is the realm of rubidium standards. I think it is difficult to go beyond this point without spending big bucks. If the reference is 10MHz this is an error of 1 cycle per day. There are not too many oscillators that are that stable, so the accuracy is determined by the disciplining. And the received signal is not guaranteed to be that stable either due to daily changes in the atmosphere.So good luck getting to 10E14. Hope you have a healthy bank balance.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 05:45:31 am
content: My suggestion is Thunderbolt, red label, and in a thick aluminum case.Thunderbolt because it's very popular, common, and there are wealth of knowledge, as well as software support available.Red label because blue one is newer and costs more. Some specs are better with older ones. (see below)Thick case because it only requires single voltage for power. It contains DC/DC converter. Thin one will require 3 voltages.There are at least two different OCXO inside. One labeled PIEZOs are to be avoided.http://www.ke5fx.com/tbolt.htmWhat you see on eBay as new often (almost always) contain surplus GPSDO board, so they aren't really new. So unless you want to spend $1000 ish, consider buying used. Also, eBay types can have any GPSDO board inside, and you can't always go by appearance. There are no manuals or official documentation. So you are left on your own.That's my opinion anyway....

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 06:01:08 am
content: By the way....Please keep in mind, 10^-13 level accuracy is only possible when you average, say, for 24 hours. From second to second, you would have several orders of magnitude worse. This is pretty much true on any working unit. GPSDO works in a way where OCXO will beat and checks against GPS signal through complex algorithm. So good thing is, error will not accumulate. But if you "yank" the oscillator often, you will get jitter (short term drift). If you "yank" less often, you will start to see drift more and bigger jump but in short term, jitter will be less. Then there is a temperature change. You'd think OCXO will not be affected by ambient temp but it does... That will further limit your ability to be accurate and stay accurate in short term. Short term stability of GPSDO is worse than plain OCXO because of this. I've actually tested this in my lab...

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 09:44:55 am
content: As you do all write, is 10E14 a bit over what any normal setup can handle.And yes 10E14 was the Porsche end of the spectrum. You know if you shall 3 miles down the road would a bicycle be enough but it's a lot more fun to cruse in a Porsche :-)I do not need 10E14 at all and if I want the highest precision do I let my frequency counter make an average over several hours.I have an antenna on my roof and is planning on mounting a GPS antenna in the top, it will do that it has nearly 360 deg view all the way around.The most of the year am I able to keep the temperature at 72.5 deg F or 22.5 deg C 24/7 with only 0.5 deg variation.My only "problem" is to find the most accurate unit while still keeping my sanity (what's left) :-)You do all suggest great units or solutions but I do not have enough knowledge to decide among them.Naturraly have I read what I could find about the units but I end up in not understanding the advantages vs disadvantages by choosing one over the other.

author: MIS42N
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 12:22:52 pm
content: Quote from: FriedMule on April 29, 2021, 09:44:55 amI think your best option is to spend a small amount to get a cheap unit and play with it. It may be all you need. I may be wrong, but I get the impression that most people who spend a lot of money on GPSDOs do it for interest and as a hobby. They don't have a use for it, just pursue accuracy as a 'game'. If you want to play 'the game' you will learn from the cheap unit what to look for in a better unit.If you have around $60,000US, then buy a 5071A Cesium Beam standard, it's about as good as it gets. You keep your sanity but lose your retirement savings.For most units between the cheapest and the most expensive the market determines you get what you pay for. It is like the decision on buying a car - new model or better quality used model. Was your first car a new Porsche or cheap second hand. Most of us start at the bottom then buy better and more appropriate models when we understand our needs. Perhaps that's the way to look at a GPSDO.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 05:08:14 pm
content: I'm curious. Where did you read GPS can achieve 10^-14? Which model? Is this a long term figure or a short term?If you want THAT kind or anything close to, antenna is an important factor, too. GPS signal is below noise. Professional timing antenna is much better in dealing with this. Something like THIS:https://www.ebay.com/itm/184503369787?hash=item2af542003b:g:VhwAAOSwKP1flMQVwill be great to have. New ones pop up around the same price if you watch for one. Feed it with a good coax.If you want just ANY GPSDO, I have stacks of them but they don't use TCXO and because of architecture, jitter is pretty bad. Like someone said, I'm going to suggest with just start with something and get your knowledge up. Then you'll be better positioned to make a selection that will suit your needs and also set a realistic goal.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 05:32:07 pm
content: Quote from: tkamiya on April 29, 2021, 05:08:14 pmI have excactly the same "Ice Cones" in 40 & 26 dB.I'd go for a 26dB , not a 40dBIn fact i had to take down my 40dB , and get a 26dB instead.As the 40dB was giving out too much signal for my modern receivers ...The tbolt didn't seem to mind though , but the LEA's etc was not appy.It was easier for me to get a new antenna than to attenuate + dc-block & power inject.@OPYou seem to have changed your req's , to the best , $1000/1500 etc ....My advice is to get the first now , the rest will follow by them selfNow go get the Samsung ....The "Chinese" Z3805's arent worth $400+/Bingo

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 06:37:13 pm
content: I didn't realize I pointed to 40dBi kind. Yes, I do recommend 26dBi type. That's what I use.I have one in attic and I have one outside. I can see attenuation but they both work well. I use Andrew Helix for one feed line and LMR400 for another. I know it's an overkill but I had them. Then the signal goes to 4 channel and 8 channel HP signal divider.Fun stuff to play with.... I just wish I had better reference to quantify and characterize each of them. The best I have right now is various Rubidium and old Cesium. I got a price for Microsemi 5071A. It is more like US$90K now + maintenance agreement + extended warranty.... It's quite a bit beyond my means.

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 09:06:07 pm
content: Yes I know what you mean and you are right, what I am trying to do is to get a great unit that I know will be a one time buy. To use your analogy about the car: if you know you have to use that car every day and maybe can't afford or bother to change the car to another unit every 4th year, Then may you chose to invest a bit more in the car to know its reliable the next 10 years.Also, I hope to connect my lab to this one unit and know it's better that what you get in most standard scopes and so on.Right now do I have the possibility to get a Z3805 w. DOCXO 10811 and a 16-chan receiver very cheap but why buy it if its less accurate than the other units I own.

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 09:22:40 pm
content: My reason for writing "below" $1000-$1500 is that this is my upper limit. Why that high price? Since I have no idea on what to get or what to look for and I have seen $30,000 units would I make sure it did not go way out of what I can afford. Just take a look at a bench DMM 5½ is fairly cheap, 6½ start to hurt a lot and 7½ / 8½ would kill me. :-) For the same reason did I think a 10E6 would be cheap a 10E12 maybe start to hurt and 10E14 would cost every one of my organs.This is what I can get for about $250 and it may be fine to a start, but why trow out $250 if I find out I have to buy another unit 6 months from now, because it's not even as accurate as the crystals in my scope? :-)

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 09:50:47 pm
content: How can I get you to see you won't actually get 10^-14? To get anywhere close to 10^-13 level, you'll have to measure for 24 hours, log the data, and take a mean value of it. Then maybe you'll get that kind of accuracy. It's far more realistic to think, measure for 10 minutes and take an average, and get 10^-12ish, if that. If you just hook up and take a single shot measurement, you could get 10^-10ish.Be careful with HP branded ones from China at rock bottom price. They are sometimes FrankenGPSDO. Just because someone upgraded OXCO or GPS board, that won't give GPSDO more performance. There's a lot of tuning involved, which is more like an art than science. Also, they are almost certainly a surplus unit from GPS cell sites. They didn't come from a clean cal lab. Some of them were awfully abused.With all that said, it's your money and your lab. You should get what you are satisfied with. You asked our opinion. Most of us have opinions the direction you are trying to go may be waste of money. Most of us start like you, then quickly realize that's not the way it works. It's interesting to play with various kind of GPSDOs since they are cheap.In my lab, my GPSDO references are Nortel GPSTM for house standard, and T-bolt for secondary unit. If I need exceptional short term stability, I calibrate an independent OCXO unit with GPSDO for few hours, and use OCXO as reference. I also have Rubidium and Cesium, but later is rarely used.Just be forewarned.... you are about to get sucked into a black hole that will create a giant worm hole on your wallet.

author: MIS42N
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 10:49:37 pm
content: Quote from: FriedMule on April 29, 2021, 09:22:40 pmI don't think you realise how good even a cheap GPSDO can be. There are two variables to deal with - stability and accuracy. A good crystal is stable but not necessarily accurate. GPS signals are accurate but not (short term) stable. The job of the GPSDO is to transfer the accuracy of GPS signals to an oscillator while trying not to transfer any short term instability. The quality of the local oscillator is the main determining factor.If you are not spending thousands of dollars on each piece of equipment, almost certainly the GPSDO will be hundreds of times more accurate than any internal oscillator. I don't know the particular item in your picture, but it will definitely be better than anything you have except if you have another GPSDO.As a quick example, I built a really cheap GPSDO (it has just the oscillator, a PIC16F1455 processor for disciplining, a 74HC04 to drive the output, a Ublox Neo-6M GPS module, and a handful of resistors and capacitors). It was tested earlier this week and shown to provide a 3V p-p square wave into 50 ohm with a 50/50 duty cycle and accurate to 1 part in 10E-9. It was able to show to 0.01Hz the inaccuracy of the laboratory frequency counter. Because of the distance from decent GPS reception I added a line driver/receiver so I can position the antenna and GPS 16 meters from the GPSDO (tested to 30 meters). And this is just a home brew system. Just about any commercial unit will be as good or better.Regarding attaining an accuracy of 1 part in 10E14, I read that the best cesium beams can do this. I worked in a standards laboratory many years ago, IIRC the cesium beam is very stable in the medium term but can be slightly inaccurate due to environmental effects. The beam is measured by a signal derived from an ultra stable DOXCO which also provides the user output. Using the GPS over a period of weeks it is possible to measure the inaccuracy of the cesium beam and tune it, and also tune the DOXCO to match the beam. Part of the tuning of the DOXCO is to measure and compensate for ageing effects which, after a few months, are predictable.Because the GPS constellations are locked to the NIST standard, very long term comparisons could theoretically bring an oscillator to better than 1 part in 10E14 accuracy. But in practice 10E14 is good enough for most people.

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 11:04:59 pm
content: i am aware of 10E14 being unrealistic for me, just like a 8½ bench DMM is fare outside anything I will ever get my hands on.I know that the persute of the best accuracy can be a black hole but also super fun.Some of the sugested units looks very interesting and cheap other models sounds as if they are best to avoid! :-)

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 05:52:57 am
content: I can't add any relevant info that hasn't already been mentioned wrt. gpsdo choice.Hope you get what you want, and will be happy with your choice./Bingo

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 11:07:36 pm
content: Quote from: bingo600 on April 27, 2021, 10:31:22 amSince the suggested units is so cheap do I plan on buying the both of the above units. To learn and compare. :-)But it looks like the Trimble does not have a power supply, any suggestion one known to good for the unit?The Trimble antenna has a great pole mounting bracket, do any of you know what pole diameter fits?

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2021, 01:08:19 pm
content: http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/power.htmhttp://www.leapsecond.com/tbolt-faq.htmhttps://prc68.com/I/ThunderBolt.shtmlPSU Something like this - Meanwell is one of the better switchershttps://protosupplies.com/product/mean-well-power-supply5v-12v-12v-50w/Edit :The Tbolt has F-connector for the antenna input , and it was designed for cheap 75Ohm Antenna cable (use quad shielded , not cheap Harald cable)In fact i bought a few N to F adaptors for the GPS antenna , and some F-connectors (diy for sattelite).As F-connectors just "Screw on the cable" , it was super easy to pull & connect the antenna cable from antenna pos to the Tbolt.N-F for Antenna (I'd get 2)https://www.ebay.com/itm/192922995695sma - F - To get the Tbolt ant cable to fit on the Samsung (for test)https://www.ebay.com/itm/193000694585And now you'd want to have 2 x USB-->RS232-DB9 adapters , Must be RS232 level w. db9 , not the TTL adapters.So you can run Lady Heather and gather from both units.And in 2 weeks you want a gps antenna splitter , and in 4 a better freq counter , and in 3..6 month .. You have your first rubidiumAnd you'll dream about an : Agilent 5071a .... (Do you really need that new car ....)You ( And your wallet) are destined for a Dark..dark wormhole , and there's no way out.Welcome to the time-nuts/Bingo

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2021, 01:16:45 pm
content: Here's an antenna w. pole - If customs come after you from uk , i'd prob get one of the below (first is cheapest)$$https://www.ebay.com/itm/303869579117$$$https://www.ebay.com/itm/283468530873

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2021, 05:03:16 pm
content: As to size of the pole, there are several. While those flange mount look all the same, they aren't. My suggestion is to wait until you get the antenna then look for a pole. Even if you have a picture, there is no guarantee what you'll actually get is the identical one to the picture.

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2021, 01:51:59 am
content: About the black-frequency-hole, I know of a YouTuber who did go to a low-voltage-black-hole, I think there have to be a lot of black holes out there:-)you are all of amazing help, I have tried to search for different types of coaxial cables and i think i may need at least one 50 Ohm N-male to N-male but then is the question is what do you use? I have to use about 10 meters or 30 feet.Would you invest in a lightning "catcher"?

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2021, 02:15:44 am
content: I use 15 meters of TimesMicrowave LMR-400 with N connectors on both ends. It doesn't need to be anything this good actually. RG58 or RG6 works equally well. I have used even longer RG58 and it worked just fine. I already had an LMR400 in place so I used it. I don't have a lightening arrestor because the antenna is installed only 4 meters or so above ground and peak of the house is nearly 8 meters high.The requirement or choice will depend on your particular case. Keep in mind, while connector on antennas are almost always N type, receiver side will vary. Thunderbolt is F connector. Some board type will use anything from SMA, SMB, to some sub micro stuff. My suggestion will be to use N and use short piece of coax as converter to whatever receivers require.

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2021, 06:56:44 pm
content: Please take a look at this boxhttps://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/oOEAAOSw07lbh4ki/s-l1600.jpgis that the F-female-connector?I do only need about 30 feet (10 meters) but since my antenna is about the same as my air vent do I maybe need a lightening arrestor. no matter what is a lightening arrestor cheaper to have wasted money on than not have spent the money and find out I did need it:-)

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2021, 07:01:18 pm
content: One on far left for antenna IS the female F connector.If you are going to invest in lightening arrestor, don't forget you will also need a GOOD ground.

author: Uky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2021, 02:48:58 pm
content: I was adviced (and acknowledged) that when GPS-diciplining an HP 10811 OCXO that has been laying on the shelf for an extended period of time, it can take several months before the unit will reach an acceptable stability. Since 10811's are not hermetically sealed, they need to "dry up".

author: MIS42N
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2021, 09:22:38 pm
content: Quote from: Uky on May 15, 2021, 02:48:58 pmIt depends on what you mean by 'acceptable'. It takes a while for an OCXO to reach a predictable ageing rate. GPS disciplining will keep it on frequency in a shorter time. If you aim for 10e-12 then maybe months. If you are happy with 10e-9 then a day or two should be adequate.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2021, 09:46:29 pm
content: By the way....It's a good idea to have more than one standard running at any given time. When they start to diverge, you will know something is wrong. (they will never be exactly the same, by the way...) I run two GPSDO and one Rubidium for this reason.If you only have one, even if they are wildly wrong, you'll never know because that is your standard.If you are going to have two GPS, you'll need two antennas or one proper splitter designed for this purpose. You can't just use a tee. Coax also acts as power line for the antenna. One by HP/Symmetricom is pretty much industry standard. There are two channel kind (HP 58535A) or four channel (HP58356A). I'd recommend 4 channel one as you'd want more very very soon.

author: MIS42N
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2021, 04:32:57 am
content: Quote from: tkamiya on May 15, 2021, 09:46:29 pmA deficiency of some methods.If you have a GPSDO, you already have two standards, the GPS and the OCXO. The GPSDOs I am designing (built three, starting on the fourth) use the OCXO output as the clock for the microprocessor. The arrival time of the 1pps is timed to the nearest 25ns (quarter of a cycle). Just watching the arrival times gives a good indication if the OCXO is doing OK. The second thing is the microprocessor adjusts the "DAC" (I use PWM so it isn't really a DAC) at long intervals (minimum 20 minutes in one of them) so you can see the rate of divergence. The microprocessor does a calibration run when first set up, this determines the (control volts)/(frequency change) ratio. The OCXO I use typically 0.1V/Hz, so a change in control volts can be interpreted as a change in frequency. Since all frequency changes are aimed at bringing the GPS and OCXO into agreement, the frequency change is always larger than the frequency error. So (after a change) I can say with some confidence the GPSDO was within x Hz of accurate. If the changes are consistently below some value, one can also have confidence it is still that accurate (and if it really matters, wait for the next change for confirmation).The question is if short term errors (periods of a few seconds) in arrival time are due to the OCXO wandering, or the GPS wandering. It is more likely to be the GPS, because in an intermediate period (a few minutes) they converge again. If the OCXO was at fault it wouldn't do that consistently.But yes, the old adage - a man with a clock knows the time. A man with two clocks is never sure.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2021, 04:47:56 am
content: New adage for time nuts:"a man with a clock knows the time. A man with two clocks is never sure. A man with a dozen clocks has lots more fun."I actually do what I suggested. I didn't dream it up in vaccum. Say I measure an oscillator and the result is not what I expected. I then use another instrument to see if it's the same or pretty close. If I get wildly off results, then I'll know I need to find out the reason. Is one of the instruments off, two of them are off, or DUT is drifting wildly. At one time when I was getting wildly different results every time I measure, issue was in a coax connector. Clamp type BNC lost pressure and with a quick yank, it came right off....Basic mistake I know. But having multiple source gave me a pretty quick way to know where the problems might be.It depends on resolution limit of instruments, too. With a ten digit frequency counter, GPS reading looks dead stable against another GPSDO or Rb, or Cs. But if you involve DMTD, it will never show a stable number. It will drift back and forth in seemingly random fashion.It is fairly obvious that OP is new to the field. Really, how is he supposed to know he got what he thinks he got? When I got my very first one up and running, the first question I had was exactly that.... How do I know if it's accurate? Well, that's how my time nuttery started. Now I have about a dozen GPSDO, half a dozen Rb, one old Cs and lots and lots of OCXO. I'm not even going to count number of frequency counters I have, how much money I spent. Yes... I have an OCD.

author: YetAnotherTechie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2021, 10:38:03 am
content: I'm on a similar place and need some help.The primary goal for me to own a gpsdo would be to adjust a rubidium oscilator.In that case what is better, one of the mentioned samsung units or Leo Bodnars?I don't care about 1pps, adjustable frequency or lady heather connection.Should i care about the LH connection and would that make up for the samsung unit disadvantages?

author: FriedLogic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2021, 10:59:49 pm
content: Simply measuring the phase difference between the 1pps from a GPS receiver and your rubidium is a good way to measure the frequency difference.For long measurements where the phase of the rubidium could change by more than one cycle, adding a divider like this can be useful -http://www.leapsecond.com/pic/picdiv.htm

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2021, 03:30:44 am
content: If you are going to get a GPSDO, you might as well get one with PPS. I like routing 10MHz out to ch1 of a scope and DUT to ch2, then trigger on ch2. That way, trace ch1 will show me it's either behind or ahead of the DUT.Here's something to think about... GPSDO is only good for 10^-9 on second-to-second basis. So each and every reading can jump around quite a bit. How stable it will be will depend on how well GPS is locked to the signal, how stable OCXO/TCXO inside is, and how locking loop is set up. LH is a great thing to have to see trend your GPS is seeing.When I tune Rubidium, I usually use HP53132A (ext ref. hooked up to GPSDO) set to 1 second gate time, and do a rough tuning. Then do 10 second reading for an hour or so, then average the reading. I can do this easily using PC and Excel. The procedure will also depend on how accurate you want it to 10MHz. Stability will really depend on Rb itself. If you have a PRS-10, you can automate all this. Exactly on how to do it is on users' manual.

author: FransW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2021, 09:57:57 am
content: My advise is to read the meaning of numerical dispersion:"In computational mathematics, numerical dispersion is a difficulty with computer simulations of continua (such as fluids) wherein the simulated medium exhibits a higher dispersivity than the true medium. This phenomenon can be particularly egregious when the system should not be dispersive at all, for example a fluid acquiring some spurious dispersion in a numerical model. It occurs whenever the dispersion relation for the finite difference approximation is nonlinear. For these reasons, it is often seen as a numerical error. Numerical dispersion is often identified, linked and compared with numerical diffusion, another artifact of similar origin.In simulations, time and space are divided into discrete grids and the continuous differential equations of motion (such as the Navier–Stokes equation) are discretized into finite-difference equations; these discrete equations are in general un-identical to the original differential equations, so the simulated system behaves differently than the intended physical system. The amount and character of the difference depends on the system being simulated and the type of discretization that is used."Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_dispersionSummary: it all depends on the required usage of the equipment. Without a valid cause it makes no sense.Pointless conclusions are outside the common sense environment.Regards, Frans

author: MIS42N
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2021, 10:54:26 am
content: Quote from: tkamiya on June 03, 2021, 03:30:44 amI think a GPSDO should deliver way better than 10^-9. My own design is still in development, I am writing it up here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/budget-gpsdo-a-work-in-progress/. Here is data from nearly two days. The design is such that the control voltage is not altered unless the OCXO has wandered an estimated 1 cycle of 10MHz from synchronization with 1pps, at which time the alteration is designed to bring the OCXO into synchronization. This is done in case the 10MHz is used for long duration comparisons. Because the control voltage is not from a DAC, it is more precise. The variations below of control voltage are less than would happen with a 1 bit change in a 16 bit DAC (assuming the DAC is delivering 0-5V). Note that on average changes are done less than once an hour. They actually occur in pairs - set a voltage and wait to hit the one cycle limit (more than an hour). When it hits the limit, apply a change to bring it back to synchronisation. The return is usually 30-40 minutes due to limitations in the control algorithm and don't need to be that quick. In all cases the OCXO is running better than 0.1ppb - i.e. 1 part in 10E-10 from 10MHz.Because the OCXO is running with a fixed control voltage most of the time, there is no second to second variation. The quality of output is dependent on the OCXO, and short term GPS variations have no effect.The voltages assume a full scale of 5V. If the 5V were accurate, all but the last digit of the control voltage would be valid. The ppb (parts per billion or parts in 10E-9) changes are calculated from (V1-V2)x(OCXO V/Hz pulling) - which is known and for the particular OCXO about 0.1V/Hz.Time 122416 UTC. Ctrl 2.0495204 0.045 ppbTime 154903 UTC. Ctrl 2.0494727 -0.045 ppbTime 162310 UTC. Ctrl 2.0495081 0.034 ppbTime 190933 UTC. Ctrl 2.0494477 -0.057 ppbTime 193924 UTC. Ctrl 2.0494944 0.044 ppbTime 231243 UTC. Ctrl 2.0495665 0.069 ppbTime 235106 UTC. Ctrl 2.0495210 -0.043 ppbTime 022025 UTC. Ctrl 2.0495842 0.060 ppbTime 030304 UTC. Ctrl 2.0495420 -0.040 ppbTime 072735 UTC. Ctrl 2.0496064 0.061 ppbTime 075726 UTC. Ctrl 2.0495530 -0.051 ppbTime 095237 UTC. Ctrl 2.0494917 -0.058 ppbTime 104348 UTC. Ctrl 2.0495207 0.028 ppbTime 135547 UTC. Ctrl 2.0495781 0.055 ppbTime 143410 UTC. Ctrl 2.0495326 -0.043 ppbTime 160801 UTC. Ctrl 2.0494782 -0.052 ppbTime 165456 UTC. Ctrl 2.0495115 0.032 ppbTime 181143 UTC. Ctrl 2.0494492 -0.059 ppbTime 190254 UTC. Ctrl 2.0494761 0.026 ppbTime 232725 UTC. Ctrl 2.0495579 0.078 ppbTime 235716 UTC. Ctrl 2.0494993 -0.056 ppbTime 055955 UTC. Ctrl 2.0494480 -0.049 ppbTime 063402 UTC. Ctrl 2.0494947 0.044 ppbTime 084617 UTC. Ctrl 2.0494370 -0.055 ppb

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 03, 2021, 11:41:22 am
content: Quote from: YetAnotherTechie on June 02, 2021, 10:38:03 amSo, to adjust a rubidium oscillator, you can use pretty much any cheap GPS receiver with a reasonable 1PPS output. No GPSDO required.A common method is to divide the 10Mhz from the Rubidium down to 1PPS and then use a counter/timer to measure the relative time between the 1PPS from the GPS and the 1PPS divided down. If the relative phase stays the same, then you can be sure the Rubidium is adjusted. A common tool to do this is a 53131A. or 53132A.Alternatively, you can use a timestamping counter such as a TAPR TICC, and clock it directly from the rubidium and feed the 1PPS into one of the channels. This will output a series of timestamps every time the 1PPS is triggered, and if the rubidium is calibrated correctly, the fractional part of the timestamps won't drift over a long period of time. This is my preferred method.Note that the reason why this works is that over a fairly long period, the +-100ns jitter out of a typical consumer-grade GPS receiver becomes so insignificant that it doesn't matter to your measurement.Let me state this a bit differently: Effectively what you're doing is creating a time period that you can use to measure the Rubidium that has 100ns jitter no matter the actual time period. Over a second, you get 1 part per 10,000 error. Over 10 seconds you get 1 part per 100,000. Over 100 seconds you get 1 part per million, and over 100,000 seconds you get 1 part per billion.So, over a time period of just over a day you can measure your rubidium to 1 part per billion.Typically what I do with the TICC is I will adjust it until it doesn't look like it's drifting, and then check on it as time goes on. If it's drifted more than expected I'll trim it up.There is a bit of finesse needed here in that if you don't pay attention to the data over a long time it may drift enough that you've gained or lost more than a second. In addition, you'll need to handle the occasional missed 1PPS (which you can just ignore/filter out, as a general rule).

author: usagi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 11:01:27 am
content: If anyone is looking for genuine Oscilloquartz Star4 boards, I have one with 8664-XS i'll be willing to sell.