JNIOR: Unprecedented access to internals - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: bscloutier
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 19, 2024, 06:40:41 pm
content: Has anyone heard of the JNIOR? You know there are 10s of thousands of them all over the globe but it is still pretty much a secret. We don't actually market it. I mean that we do not employ marketing people nor have any budget for that. No hype, spin or really any effort to spam anyone. Not at all interested in that. Business grows by word of mouth (I guess). We are just a small group of engineers and computer science types focused on making something great and making every customer happy.I am the creator of the product. The first versions of my making shipped in 2005. Some of those are still running today. I selected the components (the Series 4 is Renesas RX63N based); Designed the circuits and laid out the PCBs; We buy components and run our own stencil machine, pick and place, reflow, selective solder, etc.; I wrote the operating system called JANOS. It is not an RTOS and closer to Linux on that spectrum. There is not one byte of third party code in that OS. I wrote every byte. I even wrote my own set of standard C library routines so as to not integrate code forced upon you by the Renesas IDE. I guess you would say that we are extreme DIY. The goal is to not be dependent on any other companies and be completely in control of our own destiny. No overnight surprises slipped in by third parties. You can't completely do that of course. But we make a serious run at it.I am just looking for a place to chat should anyone have an interest. We are considering a Series 5 version of the product. Perhaps moving to Renesas RX72N at higher clock speeds for fun. ST Micro and others have been in here trying to move us in another direction.The JNIOR can actually generate the attached document. We print it, bind it and call it theBook of JANOSfor fun. Not an RTOS? What do you think?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2024, 02:21:50 am
content: I had absolutely never heard of it. What are these typically used for?I like the idea of 0% third-party code.Never actually seen (myself) a product using those Renesas MCUs. What was your experience with them? Looking at specs, I would indeed consider possibly going a different, less vendor-tied direction for future products.

author: bscloutier
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 03, 2024, 02:34:10 pm
content: About 70% of the JNIORs go into movie theatres where they are used with maybe 1 of every 3 screens worldwide (seriously everywhere). There they basically work to integrate media server, projectors, sound systems with local systems like lighting, screen masking, curtains. Been shipping to that market since 2005.They are also used in energy monitoring, environmental monitoring, security and transportation. And since there is no cost (or need for our involvement) in customizing them we find them used in all kinds of odd-ball applications like monitoring lightning detection systems and sirens on golf courses (Canada). Oh, and also in public transportation where they control the doors on people movers in airports, monitor track-side equipment, etc. I actually do not have an exhaustive list. It would be something a marketing person might want to do if we had one.The company early on developed controls software for AB PLCs basically for the newspaper industry. Not everything that had to be controlled/monitored justified the cost (or load on) the main PLCs. So they conceived of a low-end controller. Around 2004 Kodak discovered JNIOR online and started to utilize it with a pre-show system they were developing for cinemas. You know, those slide shows between features. So I got involved creating a version of JNIOR for them that could be mass-produced. That started out with the Dallas DS80C400 processors programmed as Java JVMs. Those were 8-bit 8051 derivatives I believe.They worked albeit slowly. We called those Series 3 JNIORs. There are many shipped in 2005 still running out there.Around 2011 the Dallas part went EOL. So we looked at ARM and other 32-bit options. ARM processors just seemed like a moving target to me. There were too many flavors and it was difficult to decide which to lock into. I needed a processor that would be stable and available for 10 years. I do not like having to support multiple levels of things. I was attracted to the RX MCU because it not only had the MIPS but also the variable length instruction set for a smaller code footprint. Renesas also committed to 10 year (and more) availability of the part. I prototyped with the RX62N and moved to RX63N before production.My operating system (called JANOS) comes very close to Linux in functionality. It is actually an amalgamation of CP/M, the Dallas TINI shell, and Linux command set and syntax. The whole thing is distributed in around 700KB. That includes fully featured web server with PHP-like server side (compiled) scripting including TLS v1.2. Application programs are written in Java (a managed language) so there is a complete JVM executing JAR files directly (built against our runtime). I developed our own OS both so we can make a new version of the product (Series 4) to continue the JNIOR experience but also to be completely in control of it. I am sick of dealing with code written by masses or unknown hacks. When something isn't working it needs to be my fault so I can fix it. Can't point fingers hoping to get someone else to fix their own mess. It is hard enough to prove their stuff is broken let alone get it changed in a timely fashion. We generally fix an issue in less than 24 hours and get the customer an update.I exposed the PHP-like scripting at the command line for batch use leveraging the code. Most of us try to program scripts at the command line to do all kinds of things. I thought it would be fun to bring the C-like world that PHP has to that. It works and is interesting to play with.Anyway, marketing for 2023 came to $128 according to IRS filings. Can't think of what that was? We are just completely dedicated to supporting our existing customer base. It is not about pushing inferior product out into as many hands as possible whether they want it or not. Business grows by word of mouth. It is actually fun for us.But... we work in our own self-created vacuum (extreme DIY). I was hoping to share experiences, you know, before I retire.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2024, 02:49:26 pm
content: After your long write up what that thing is used for I still do not understand what that thing is. Can you give a one line description of what the product *is* ?

author: bscloutier
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 03, 2024, 03:01:41 pm
content: It is a single board network-enabled programmable logic controller.Never needed an elevator pitch... no investors. I posted the user's manual above. Even our website likely doesn't explain itself well-enough (https://jnior.comorhttps://integpg.com).I made this. um, a while ago...Not trying to sell it here. Just looking to chat with peers. You know, I don't want to fall in the woods and not make some sound.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2024, 04:04:28 pm
content: Your User manual does not say what that thing *is* either, unless i missed it.

author: bscloutier
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 03, 2024, 04:28:19 pm
content: Well there is a lot in there and it isn't a marketing piece. It is for how to use the product that you already have.We don't even ship the things in retail packaging. You know, with all the glitzy printing to make you think that you need it even before you know what it is. You probably bought your Arduino before you even knew how to use it or that RaspPi figuring that you would figure it out after you got it.When I asked if anyone heard of it, I already knew the answer. I've built 70,000 of them and I would still classify it as a well-kept secret. We joke that it is almost like customers are by invitation only. And I have been known to quoteSeinfeld 7:6.The question is whether or not a product of that scale and functionality designed, built and supported in its entirety by only two people who are still supporting (for free) every one that has been sold has any value/merit over all of the alternatives? Go ahead and base your product on libraries written by untold unknown authors; Try to get support from a bot or someone in India who studies the American accent; Or, use hardware with a 2-year life cycle. I personally cannot stand where our "technology" is heading. We've achieved something. Just want to share.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2024, 06:39:15 pm
content: Quote from: bscloutier on March 03, 2024, 04:28:19 pmExplaining what your product is and what it does before explaining it's attributes, advantages, and how to install it is... Technically "marketing" but also basic communication skills. It's like when you learned about composition in high school: introduction, body, conclusion.If your existing customers already know what it does or what it is, that's fine, but if you come posting here -- admittedly *knowing* that most people won't be familiar with it, ommitting a basic description is just a giant waste of everyone's time.

author: 50ShadesOfDirt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 03:38:38 pm
content: I haven't heard about the JNIOR device specifically, but it was easy to look up ... use cases at:https://jnior.com/uses-overview/A mass of manuals to read through, and the menu at the top "jumped around" as I'm trying to navigate through it (on Firefox), but I got at enough to start poking around.I use CTI-Electronics boards (relays, sensors, etc.) to control an analog model train set & display lighting from a computer, as I haven't yet bought into the digital version of that stuff (Digitrax's designs, digital signaling over power which seems troublesome, etc).Perhaps this JNIOR board is like the CTI components, only more for the commercial (all the use cases above) world. Will keep digging into the pdf's ...

author: bscloutier
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 04:16:44 pm
content: Actually there is the Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad Museum not far from us (https://wpmrm.org). We met with them but not to sell our product. I was looking to enlist the excellent model makers there to potentially build a small scale classic movie theater in which we could demonstrate automation with the JNIOR. It would have been for our trade show booth at CinemaCon. But COVID came along and we haven't yet returned to exhibiting. That meeting led us to run an ad briefly inModel Railroadermagazine.I think what deters hobbyists in our case is the price point. Especially if you are comparing it against the low-end controller boards. Once you get into it and realize what is there and you realize that we professionally support each and every one for the life of the product (no matter how you obtain it) for free. The value becomes more apparent. It is also priced where we need it to be if we are to survive to be around to provide that support for customers. And by 'support' I mean we will help you program it, teach everything from Java to PHP. The JNIOR also has a lot of debugging tools like built-in network capture. In fact you can download a capture file from the JNIOR and it will open up in Wireshark. There are I/O logs for digital and serial I/O. In fact, feel free to contact support even if you do not have a JNIOR.But here, I can discuss schematics, OS internals, and can even help you understand elliptic curve cryptography. I had to write it all for JANOS as there is absolutely no 3rd party code in there. I wouldn't even let the Renesas IDE supply the Standard C Library routines. You know, more interesting discussions. We're proud of what we have but you guys keep forcing me into promoting the thing. I don't get along with marketing people who think it is good to spin and over-sell.The website is Wordpress and we run our own servers here. In fact we are very DIY and do everything ourselves. We can't rely on anyone else. Most of them just want to generate cash flow in their direction. I'll mention "jumpy" to Kevin to see what he says.