Elecrow PCB deception?  (RESOLVED) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2014, 03:41:03 am
content: I just ordered from Elecrow 10 blue pcbs with 'free color' specialhttp://www.elecrow.com/2-layer-10cm-10cm-max-pcb-510pcs-color-free-p-328.html(10 colored boards, $23.90)Then I noticed this green offering which suggests that the color option almost doubles the pricehttp://www.elecrow.com/special-offer-for-2-layer-1010cm-max-green-pcb-510pcs-p-761.html(10 green boards, $12.90)Am I missing something?Update (July 27 2014): Elecrow repriced their PCBs. Now the premium for the 2 layer 10 units 10x10cm color is 33% over green ($15.90 vs $11.90). They still list it as 'color free'.Update (July 30 2015): Elecrow fixed their product posting and now do not claim anymore non free color option as free. I am marking the topic of this thread as RESOLVED.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2014, 03:45:54 am
content: They've been running that green only option for a while. It used to all be the same (higher) price.

author: Harvs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2014, 04:14:52 am
content: Well it's just the same as buying something off ebay that has "free" shipping. It's crap, there's no such thing. It's just the shipping (or colour in this case) has already been factored into the price.There's no point getting pissed off about it though. It's just incorrect use of the language. Substitute the word "free" for "included" and it works perfectly almost every time.

author: Harvs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2014, 04:18:16 am
content: BTW what's the board quality and turn around time like? $15.90 for 10 10x10 boards is dirt cheap.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2014, 05:49:45 am
content: Quote from: Harvs on June 04, 2014, 04:14:52 amI don't see the analogy. The ebay sellers with free shipping don't let you pick the product locally (that is, without the shipping) for a lower price, right? Here you can get the product without the free part for less.It reminds me the old scam of 'we don't charge interest but we give a discount if you pay in cash'.Edit: Dirty PCBs can claim 'free color' since any color costs the same as greenhttp://dirtypcbs.com/index.php

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2014, 06:09:09 am
content: The cheap green option is a "special"The fab house is always going to be producing a much larger qty of green boards for customers, so it costs them less to tack your pcb onto a green panel than do a special run for a specific color

author: Harvs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2014, 06:34:56 am
content: Quote from: zapta on June 04, 2014, 05:49:45 amWell almost certainly. But your right, you'll never see a Chinese ebay seller stating in their listing that if you visit their shed in some shitty lane in Baoan and give them yuan they'll give it to you cheaper, but why would they? They just offer it to you at a total price with the shipping included and call it "free", here they're offering you a product with the price of colour included. They both call part of the service "free", where as it's clearly not free but just already included in the price.It's like if I go on digikey.com.auand spend $200 they give me "free" shipping. Now if I copy my shopping basket and go have a look atwww.digikey.comall of a sudden it's now about $40 cheaper and they charge me $40 for shipping. Hence this is a comparison everyone outside the US should always do on their digikey cart before they hit buy, because you almost never win.I just don't call it a scam. It's just marketing words.Anyway I reckon we're pretty much arguing the same point. It's just what we call it.

author: Harvs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2014, 06:36:21 am
content: Ok I just re-read you first post and you're pissed that they didn't tell you there was a cheaper option. Fair enough... That's a bit like Digikey.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2014, 07:33:00 am
content: Quote from: Harvs on June 04, 2014, 06:34:56 amBad example again. With your digikey example you don't have a less expensive option if you pass on shipping and pick up locally.With elecrow, you have an option to pass on the special color and pay less so calling the special color option 'free' is deceiving.I emailed them and got a very quick response (they seems to be very responsive). Up to 6 months ago green and special colors used to cost the same so calling it 'free' was valid. This is not the case anymore. Apparently they chose to separate them rather than indicating a +$11 when you choose a non green color as most vendors do and they left the 'free color' claim in place.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2014, 07:40:23 am
content: I had never ordered anything from Jameco until recently because I thought their shipping was way too high. Turns out it wasn't really that, just that I kept ticking the box for the "free" catalog that added $7 to the shipping!

author: Neverther
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2014, 04:20:49 pm
content: Quote from: Harvs on June 04, 2014, 04:18:16 amOrdered 22.5, received today on 4.6. Registered airmail so couple weeks is pretty good.Only couple holes look to have some minor offset. Kicad default 0805 do not have silkscreen outline, 1206 has weak outline, propably too close to copper (soldermask removed -> no silkscreen), have to check the gerbers when I get to desktop as I selected "exclude something from silkscreen" when creating gerbers. iTead had outlines on both so this might have been my mistake.Also one area (10x10mm) seems to have smudged silkscreen, out of 5 boards 2 are perfect, 2 are readable and one is almost unreadable, no big deal as this one was proto.15.90 for pcbs, 5.80 tip cleaner for car (wire ball, has good sized ball instead of the cheapo ones that need refill ball before theyre usable), 2.80 micro usb cable and 9$ for shipping, not bad.

author: metalphreak
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2014, 03:49:06 pm
content: 10x10cm $23.90http://www.elecrow.com/2-layer-10cm-10cm-max-pcb-510pcs-color-free-p-328.htmlThere is no choice of Green for the colour. You have to choose the "special" option to get green on the 10x10cm5x5cm $9.90http://www.elecrow.com/2-layer-5-5cm-max-510pcs-color-free-p-418.htmlYou can choose any colour (including green) and it's that same price. Most other places (Itead/Seeed Studios etc) will slug you $10 per order to change to a different colour ($20 if you want black...)I don't think it's meant to be deceptive. They probably added that Green Special option later, and didn't even think of the possible wording implication.In comparison, Itead is $19.90 for green, and $35 for colour PCBs for 10x10cm... So at $23.90, it is indeed "free" compared to everyone elseElecrow are my go-to favourite now, because they are usually one of the cheapest, and they keep you up to date on the production process. They also email you a photo of the package (and plastic wrapped PCBs) before posting, so you get a sneak preview!

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2014, 11:55:21 pm
content: Quote from: metalphreak on June 05, 2014, 03:49:06 pmWe will see if it is intentional or not. I brought it to their attention so let's see if they will fix it.So far they still maintain it's free even though it's double the price of a green PCB.

author: melka
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 08, 2014, 12:35:09 pm
content: I think that as metalphreak said, it's not meant to be deceptive but mostly a problem while updating their website.I ordered a couple designs maybe one or two months ago, before they changed their design, and if I recall correctly, the "free" color option was only for 5x5cm PCBs. I needed some < 5x5 for the first design, and some < 10x10 for a second design, and I remember correctly the colour 10x10 were more expensive than the green ones, whereas the 5x5 were same price (hence "free color"). I ended up ordering black 5x5 and green 10x10.As for shipping, quality, etc... :- I originally paid for EMS shipping, but had a change of heart the next day and wanted DHL, so I sent them an email, they were quick to reply, and we worked something out (I paid them the missing 9$ via paypal).- I know it's not important, but before shipping, they emailed a pic with the PCBs being packed and the receipt. That's a nice touch- Turnaround was something like a couple weeks shipped, so pretty fast. I had another order that went out exactly the same day but with Seeed, fabrication took 4 to 5 more days.- I didn't see any problem with the traces or vias (maybe some off-center vias, but nothing too bad). However, the silkscreen is not that good : text moved, have a hard time printing thin lines, stuff like that. I won't complain because of the price, which is pretty damn cheap, and it's great for prototyping.Attached is the pic they sent before shipping.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2014, 02:06:36 pm
content: Quote from: melka on June 08, 2014, 12:35:09 pmIf so, the will fix it now that they are aware of it. Will wait and see.According to them the 10cm color is more expensive for about 6 months now.BTW, are golden traces they have in the picture included in the advertised price or extra?

author: metalphreak
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2014, 03:00:34 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on June 08, 2014, 02:06:36 pmFlash gold and ENIG are optional extras. Standard is HASL (tin plated) as per the other 4 boards in the image... You should really look at the text description and the various option selections, rather than the title/image.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2014, 03:37:56 pm
content: Quote from: metalphreak on June 08, 2014, 03:00:34 pmYes, I did, but this is another little game they are playing where the price and the picture do not match.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2014, 04:43:46 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on June 08, 2014, 02:06:36 pmOr ..."If so, you would like that they will fix it now that they are aware of it."From the vantage point of someone who doesn't care either way for the specific wording, I don't see how "got complaint from semi-random dude on the internet aka customer" correlates with "change website". And definitely not with "change website in fashion semi-random dude on the internet aka customer is expecting".That aside, doesn't look too bad. You can see in advance what you get and what you pay. The rest is just semantics.It's the same story as with"Article XYZ now with 40% discount!!!"advertisements. Yeah, 40% discount on a crazy price. Mmmmh, crazy price * 0.6 == oh look a moderately competitive price. Who would ever have expected that?!? Just look at price vs what-you-get, who cares what the marketing department decides to slap on today.But best of all, if those practices are not to your liking you can just take your business elsewhere.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2014, 05:59:45 pm
content: Quote from: mrflibble on June 08, 2014, 04:43:46 pmThe defense for having the misleading information was that it was a naive mistake and that would not do it otherwise. Now that they are aware of it we will see if it is intentional or not.It does not matter how it was brought to their attention, it matters that now they know that their advertised claim is clearly false (they sell the same boards without the special color for half the price). If they have any integrity they will fix it.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2014, 08:47:40 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on June 08, 2014, 05:59:45 pm100% depending on their priorities and other things on the TODO list...

author: true
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2014, 11:44:18 pm
content: Quote from: metalphreak on June 05, 2014, 03:49:06 pmThis is exactly it. They added this option a few months ago, I believe.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2014, 10:35:12 pm
content: Hi Elecrow,Thanks for the response.Quote from: elecrow2012 on July 19, 2014, 08:35:33 amIn the past your colored boards used to cost the same as green boards so you called it 'free color' which is correct.7 months ago you changed the pricing and colored boards cost now more than green boards. Why do you insist on still calling it 'color free' even though you charge extra for colors? If you want to have accurate representation you can for example change 'color free' to 'color' or 'color included' .

author: true
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2014, 03:36:09 am
content: AFAIK anything goes as long as it isn't spam, dangerous, deceitful or outright aggression. (yes?) I mean, there is a topic about a guy crying about THE MAN deceiving him...Prices dropping, great for usMy last order needed to be used in presentation and the quality was just barely OK, but I see now that you have a "premium" service that you quote for, so I might use that for small price-constrained runs in the future. I've been generally OK with board quality from Elecrow.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2014, 07:30:38 pm
content: Quote from: true on July 24, 2014, 03:36:09 amSame here, and also their frameless metal stencils. The board outlines are fully routed so I don't need to clean the edges as with OSHPark.I just whish that I could specify a margin (e.g. 1") for the stencils instead of having to trim them myself (their laser cutter could do a much better job than my metal shears and with nice round corners that will not injure me). PCB-POOL and oshstencils do trim the stencils.

author: crt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2014, 01:50:09 pm
content: After reading this, i try to purchase from elecrowPCB was very good quality for me and its fast, 3 day for fabrication plus 11days for shipmenteven they give me a suggestion to make a panelizing for more board with less price

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2014, 05:26:49 pm
content: I had a quick look and the prices are currently much better than listed in this thread a couple months ago:10 of 10x10cm green: $11.9010 of 10x10cm colored: $15.9010 of 5x5cm colored: $9.90So green is a little less, but not much. The price for colored 10x10cm boards is probably unbeatable elsewhere.I see also that they have linked to this thread from a page in their news feed:http://www.elecrow.com/index.php?main_page=news&c_id=4&chapter_id=35Nice to see that they are owning it and not trying to sweep it under the rug.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2014, 03:19:23 am
content: Quote from: macboy on August 14, 2014, 05:26:49 pmLast month I updated the prices mentioned in the original post.Quote from: macboy on August 14, 2014, 05:26:49 pmThey still charge 33% extra for 10x10 and still claim 'color free' . For less effort they could just fix the misleading claim.

author: Precipice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2014, 06:01:28 am
content: Quote from: zapta on August 15, 2014, 03:19:23 amFree as in choice. Good grief.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2014, 01:21:38 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on August 15, 2014, 03:19:23 amOh come one now, they explained it well: You can choose any color you want no extra charge! or you can get a discount for green!

author: crt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2014, 12:48:44 pm
content: Here some photo of my PCB unit10 pcs with 10cm*10cm dimension with 10+ panelizingPCB itself cost $31,90 with $18,50 EMS Shipping

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 12:08:17 am
content: Anyone else see something wrong with this picture?http://www.elecrow.com/special-offer-for-2-layer-1010cm-max-green-pcb-510pcs-p-761.html- 2 layer, green only (no colour options available), "10*10cm".Saw this thread back when it was started and thought the original complaint was fair enough - but sort of excusable due to ESL, ever-changing pricing, etc. Went to order some boards last night, and thought I'd give Elecrow a try since they were a bit cheaper than the other known names. Even after I noticed the above I decided to order since it made no difference to me (my board is 5 x 8cm). It does seem a bit deceptive though...Luckily their payment gateway seemed to give up just when I was ordering, so I think I'll use my usual place and pay the extra $3 there.

author: CrashO
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 12:33:02 am
content: Quote from: Tac Eht Xilef on October 06, 2014, 12:08:17 amNot really.What would the alternative be? 2 separate products for 5x10 and 10x10cm board sizes?Then people like the TS will start creating posts about not knowing they could order a 5x10 when they are looking at the 10x10 version.Now it's shows them in one simple option with clear pricing.

author: true
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 01:56:19 am
content: The price not long ago was $15 or $16 with no option to discount for 5x10.Get over it, it isn't a big deal.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 02:34:31 am
content: Quote from: true on October 06, 2014, 01:56:19 amOf course it is. The title is deceptive, regardless of historic 'reasons'. Elecrow does it consistently and intentionally. That's sleazy marketing.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 02:35:54 am
content: Quote from: CrashO on October 06, 2014, 12:33:02 amSo advertising 10x10 boards as costing "from $11.90", then actually charging $11.90 + $3.00 = $14.90doesn'tseem a little deceptive to you?Granted, "deceptive" is in the eye of the beholder - which in this case is me. Not saying they do it deliberately, and as I said I'm willing to cut them some slack for various reasons, but in most of the rest of the world it'd be called "bait & switch" or "misleading advertising" regardless of the reason...Quote from: CrashO on October 06, 2014, 12:33:02 amWhy not? That's what several other places e.g. iTead, Seeedstudio, etc. do.Quote from: CrashO on October 06, 2014, 12:33:02 amI think in this case it's actually more confusing. They advertise 10x10 boards for $11.90, but for that price you can only get a 5x10 board. If I want a 5x10 board, I'll go looking for the size they do that'll fit that (like I did for my 5x8 board).Amusingly, there's currently a graphical ad on their pages that mentions 5x10 'color free' - a size they don't otherwise list - for $12.90, with 10x10 - a size they do list - at the "real" price of $15.90.(alternative linkin case it disappears quickly)Quote from: true on October 06, 2014, 01:56:19 amThere's not really anything for me to "get over". As I hinted in my comment, it's no skin off my nose - I decided to order elsewhere using a place that gives a 5x10 option, even though it cost me what a 10x10 board would from Elecrow, simply because I didn't like the appearance of misleading advertising (and, I admit, the dodgy non-response from their payment gateway, which meant I had to wait until this morning to check whether my payment had gone through or not).If they can ever get around to do what they advertise for the price they advertise, and they're cheaper than the options I know from experience to be good and reliable, then I might order some boards from them.Until then, I thought it reasonable to remind people that what they advertise isn't what they deliver.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 03:38:05 am
content: Quote from: Tac Eht Xilef on October 06, 2014, 02:35:54 amOf course they do, this is why they don't fix those 'mistakes'.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2014, 01:41:16 am
content: Elecrow has a strange way to ship DHL, with my last order the DHL status page shown that the pickup was 2-3 days after Elecrow generated the tracking number and it was in Hong Kong rather than Shenzen. I could not understand from Elecrow what exactly happened but it seems that they are mailing the package to DHL at Hong Kong instead of having a local DHL pickup.Once the shipment had a status of picked up (in Hong Kong), things are moving very fast with frequent DHL updates and expected delivery 48 hours after pick up in hong kong.

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2014, 02:20:50 am
content: Quote from: zapta on November 02, 2014, 01:41:16 amThis is because many companies have their packages shipped by truck to Hong Kong, and then onwards to the final carrier - saves money, for some reason.The whole process is described quite well by Dangerous Prototypes in regards to their DirtyPCBs.com service.Edit: And no, in regards to Elecrow's listings: This isn't "sleazy marketing". It's the chinese not giving a fuck about how it's presented, because they're not fooling anyone. Plus it's the cheapest option on the market AFAIK, so even if they had dancing bananas all over their site, I wouldn't give one shit. Not even one.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2014, 04:06:05 am
content: Quote from: ovnr on November 02, 2014, 02:20:50 amTahnks, that's explains it! They ship via DHL but there a middle man that takes ~3 days to deliver to DHL and needs to cross custom boundary. This middle man dominates the overall shipping time and has no proper tracking. It's like using US Post to mail a package to a Fedex office in Canada for delivery to Europe.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2014, 09:42:12 pm
content: Dirty PCB has this disclosure on their main page. They will also offer real DHL shipping. I will give them a try next time."WARNING: Hong Kong and China customs are inspecting ALL packages leaving mainland China! Our shipping transit estimates have been extended a few days. It will take several days up to a week to get a tracking number! Evidently this effects all carriers and logistics companies. Additionally, our dirt cheap logistics company has issues providing tracking numbers lately, so you might not get one automatically. Starting soon we will quit using a logistics company and offer next-day and same-day delivery directly from DHL. If you have the option, CHOOSE DHL CHINA, the Hong Kong border looks like this."

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2014, 04:47:33 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on November 02, 2014, 09:42:12 pmJust had an email exchange with elecrow. They also added recently a local Shenzen DHL pickup for ~$5 extra. That's good.

author: crt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 03:29:03 am
content: This is the third times i order from Elecrow- Still same about 3 business days to finish PCB- Black colour of PCB more darker than before to my eye- Now they put a bonus pcb(order 2*10pcs PCB, arrive 1*11 and the other 1*12pcs PCB)(i don't know maybe they are miscounted or something)The responses from email are a bit slow, but they answering all my mail questionwhich is not bad