Station choices for 10awg and Connectors - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Ty89m
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 09:08:35 pm
content: Hey all,I'm in the market to upgrade my soldering station and I'd love some feedback on my options given my intended use case.I'm mainly an RC hobbyist - soldering/tinning 8-14awg wire and bullets/connectors and directly to large tabs on brushless motors. I also dabble in amp and guitar pedal building, but most of my stations have performed well enough on smaller jobs such as these.I currently run a Xytonic LF3200 120W station, but I'm due to replace the tips and I'm itching to try something new. Obviously my main goals are making quicker work of large gauge wire tinning and connector soldering, so I've picked three stations that would likely fit the bill.The ADS200 Plus, which I've been meaning to try for a few years now, and see they've released an updated version. Seems to be a great value option with affordable tips.JBC CD-1BQF. The most expensive option, and likely overkill, but I'm fine with it.Thermaltronics TMT-2000-S with K series tip. Most affordable option, but could step up to the 9000 series, though it doesn't sound like I'd be missing too much by going with the more affordable 2000 series.If anyone has direct experience with these systems doing similar soldering jobs, I'd love to hear your feedback/recommendations!Thanks from a long-time lurker.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 09:44:22 pm
content: JBC T245 (official or clone) or Metcal PS5000/5200 (80W).Thermaltronics is only 40W, will work OK, but not as great as 80W. You'd have to look at some of SDGs older reviews to see how 40W compares to jbc.Don't bother with ADS200 plus until someone proves it has improved at all.Either way get a 5 or 6mm tip and make sure its super short for best thermal transfer ability. Probably worth getting a genuine tip.

author: Ty89m
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 08:18:28 pm
content: I'm leaning JBC as a good compromise on price vs. performance. The MX-500 or Thermaltronics 9000 are still in the running, but the 5200 is hard to justify for my intended use. I do like the idea of not having to worry about calibration when using the Metcal/Thermaltronics units, as investing in a tip temp sensor is an added expense I'd prefer to avoid - that said, I'm not soldering mission-critical components here, so absurd accuracy likely isn't necessary anyway.I just want to get in/out without overheating wires (I'm trying to avoid wicking solder up the wire/insulation), and yes, I'll be using large chisel tips for the most part.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 09:28:45 pm
content: I regularly do 10 AWG with my old 60 watt Weller WTCPT with a fatter 700F tip, and I doubt 8 AWG would be any more difficult, so I am not sure what you are looking for.If you need more performance, maybe get a fatter tip for your existing iron.

author: Ty89m
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 12:08:56 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 22, 2024, 09:28:45 pmAs can I with my current system and my old FX888, but I know there are better-performing setups these days, and I'd like to see what Metcal/JBC are all about. Perhaps I'll find little benefit, but at least that itch will be scratched.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 12:17:41 am
content: Quote from: Ty89m on June 22, 2024, 08:18:28 pmI don't see why you'd ever need any calibration unless you want to verify/standardize conditions at every seat in production environment. Not to say Metcal cartridge temperature accuracy spec is not better than of any decent resistive soldering station.https://www.metcal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Metcal-Maximum-Tip-Temperature_ver-2.pdf

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 01:48:24 am
content: I know from experience that while the wattage of the soldering iron is important, what really matters is the thermal conductivity of the soldering iron. The stored heat in the tip at 300-400F above the melting point is pretty significant.Two 10 ga wires together is ok, with my 60watt hakko using the fattest 1$ chinease tip, which probably does not have much copper in it. Ive probably done two #8'sI would speculate that if you took an arc welder and fused together the strands of a 6ga wire, then splayed out the strands, straightened them out, fit them around the ceramic heating element in your soldering iron, you could solder 2 6ga wires together at with 60 watts of heat..A nickel plating kit is 30$ these days ..

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 01:52:16 am
content: their iron clad. Nickel plated tip sounds suspicious. There are nickel bearing solders. I think it would contaminate.Clad usually means its not made chemically, but its made through heat and pressure.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 01:58:54 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on June 23, 2024, 01:52:16 amThe iron is to prevent the tip from dissolving.Nickel plating your own solid copper tips works.. but it doesnt last long. The nickel may reduce the ductility and fatigue resistance of your joint, but that is a problem for satellites and aircraft, not you. It will be difficult to measure.You can use up a whole pound of solder in hundreds of 6 to 8 ga wire solder joints before you wear out a diy nickel plated copper tip.My experience is legit 700F weller tips last half to 3/4 pound of 97% tin 2% silver 0.7% copper solder, soldering around 5000 solder joints.The 800F tips dont last long at all. 600 works for me but is too slowAnd yes the dissolved iron will also contamination your solder... Take a guess whats under the iron... Nickel!!

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 02:35:24 am
content: Quote from: Ty89m on June 23, 2024, 12:08:56 amThey're different in the way they achieve it but for your bulk use cases they boil down to having a more tightly regulated temperature.Power is what you really need to pay attention to on such large cables and I agree with the above that you want to avoid a station that only delivers 40/50W and get something up 80/90/120W.Everything old is new again and there are high thermal capacity tips for both systems (the original selling point of tight control, not needing bigger tips) which can help.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 11:59:34 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 23, 2024, 02:35:24 amMy Weller WTCPT stations are all 60 watts and do 10 AWG easily with their fat short tips, so 8 AWG should work. I do have a 100 watt Weller temperature controlled iron for heavier jobs, but I rarely need it. I used it recently for soldering MIG welding cables.https://www.amazon.com/Weller-Soldering-Iron-Stained-Supplies/dp/B013P45OQ2/

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 12:14:14 pm
content: What matters the most is not power rating as such but heat transfer from the heater and tip thermal mass that mitigates insufficient heat transfer. That's why you cannot solder heavy things with small tips despite how powerful is the heater. With less that 5mm chisel it does not really matter if iron has more than 50W. That's why the most important thing is tip/heater (cartridge) construction, and the best stations can push more heat through the same size of the tip than inferior ones.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 09:54:37 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 23, 2024, 12:14:14 pmBaloney, it's about how well the power can be delivered to the solder/joint. Heaters right at/in the tip like Metcal and JBC can deliver their power without the need for thermal mass.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 10:00:24 pm
content: use resistance tweezerbut for big connector you want one of the tougher units, the pace is efficient but if its the load is too big it sucksbut if you carefully stuff your connector with solder, you can get picturesque connectors without a lub of solder on the side from the ironthey are the ultimate thermal delivery system, other then induction.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 10:14:13 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on June 23, 2024, 09:54:37 pmDude, did you actually read what I wrote to call it baloney? I literally wrote that heat transfer is what matters.Also thermal mass still matters because heating response is not immediate even in JBC. BTW heater is not right at the tip, there is significant distance, and that's why JBC has normal and High thermal cartridges of the same size (the downside is worse reach in tight places).

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 10:19:36 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 23, 2024, 10:14:13 pmThere is noneedto add thermal mass to "fix" inadequate coupling from the heater to the joint. It is one possible solution just as adding more power and temperature to compensate for a temperature drop along a tip heated from one end.or..Solve that with a heater in intimate contact with the joint, which can havelessthermal mass. Metcal uses microsecond timescale thermal control, pretty much instantaneous/immediate.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 11:14:33 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 23, 2024, 10:14:13 pmAgreed. In addition: a small tip won't be able to transfer a lot of energy anyway because the thermal conductance from heater to the tip is not low enough. JBC tries to compensate by sending too much power to the tip but this results in poor temperature control and tips which go bad quickly. Bottom line: soldering big joints requires big tips.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 11:48:34 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 23, 2024, 11:14:33 pmSays you.I've a Metcal right in front of me with "high thermal mass" variants of tips so I can compare them side by side. Imperceptible difference to me. Solders the same on massive heatsinks like thick cables or solid plates. Oh and there is a handy power meter to show when its running out of steam.Some of us are fine acknowledging other ways of doing things. Others insist there is only one (which is not always true).

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 12:00:23 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 23, 2024, 11:48:34 pmThen your "thick" is not thick enough or your skill sucks enough to not see the difference. If there is no difference, why do you think such tips/cartridges are produced to begin with?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 12:10:05 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 24, 2024, 12:00:23 amSeems to be marking puffery to me, the manufacturer claims there is a benefit:"A new line of tips for the TMT-9000S, Thermaltronics M Series Power Plus tips offer higher performance and longer tip life to our users."But I've been unable to see any significant difference in use and there is a distinct lack of marketing or literature to support the additional mass adding anything useful.What do people want? Stable temperature of the solder joint. There are many things which contribute to that and adding thermal mass can be detrimental if that is increasing the loss or reducing coupling from heater to workpiece.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 01:49:42 am
content: Quote from: Ty89m on June 21, 2024, 09:08:35 pmSince I have some M series tips here and there has been some heated discussion I went ahead and tested them on a 12 AWG wire terminating into a ground plane on a sizeable PCB.https://www.thermaltronics.com//datasheet/M7CP303https://www.thermaltronics.com/datasheet/M7CH176https://www.thermaltronics.com/datasheet/M7CH176HAll pulled approximately the same power ("29" to "31" as reported by the Metcal 5000, not consistent between tips across multiple repeats) when pressed against the joint. Larger joints do increase the power reading further.

author: Arts
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 02:39:12 am
content: I have several stations that work extremely well for heavy-duty applications. The price ranges (including tip pricing) vary from fairly reasonable to ridiculousHakko FM203 station with FM-2030 wand and T22 140W tips. An absolute monster, and with the 5.2mm chisel tip you could probably take a crack at plumbing pipes...As this is a two-port station, I have the regular duty FM-2027 wand and T15 70W tips in the other channel.JBC CD-1BE with C245 High Thermal Efficiency 6.6mm chisel tip. 130W peak power, whatever that means. Another monster.Metcal PS-900 with 5mm SCV chisel tip. For such a tiny, inexpensive no-frills station with such a low-power rating (60W?!) this thing is amazing.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 06:46:43 am
content: There is also the 250W Ersa Power Tool, which works with the Vario line of stations IIRC.With that said, I agree with everyone who thinks that the 120W you have now is enough, and that getting bigger tips would probably do more for you.Or look at something completely different: resistance soldering. That is great for big connectors and whatnot becauseallthe heat is generated right within the workpiece itself. The two vendors I’m aware of for such equipment are Pace and American Beauty.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 07:54:06 pm
content: Quote from: Ty89m on June 21, 2024, 09:08:35 pmI don't have the "plus" version but I doubt very much that even the ADS200+ is a good choice for large thermal mass soldering jobs, even with the Ultra tips and "improvements". It's a very nice setup for normal work but I would bet that even the new Hakko FX888DX with the FX8806 95W iron would beat it for large work. Perhaps someone will review the ADS200+ someday.To get jobs like that done quickly you either want a huge iron with extreme thermal mass (I'd recommend a diamond-shaped tip) or resistance tweezers. You don't really need fine temperature control as you'll be using speed, skill and the melting of the solder to limit temperatures.https://americanbeautytools.com/soldering-iron-3138/15/featureshttps://americanbeautytools.com/Resistance-Tweezer-Systems/102/features

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2024, 12:55:24 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 24, 2024, 01:49:42 amAdded description above to your post. Good measurements that do demonstrate how well metcal works with smaller tip sizes. Though there will still be a physical limit when we reach a certain: temperature differential, surface area, and thermal conductivity. Grab something like long reach STTC-140 or a fine point STTC-126 and it will be obvious, you'll only transfer ~20W. Compared to the 30-40W you saw.Agree that the thermaltronics "power plus" tip is a gimmick. It probably has some niche use case, but, for any hobbyist its not useful to buy them. They are worse for the kind of stuff we do (heavy, slow to heat up).Considering you can get a wide M7CH250 (STTC-117) or M7CP200 (STTC-136P) for $17 though, it may be worth having around.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2024, 06:49:32 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on June 28, 2024, 12:55:24 amI've STTC-145 and STTC-146 tips (long reach 0.4/0.5mm conical), if you only use the end 1-2 mm of the tip then yes it reduces the power throughput to "22" or "23" which feels a little slow, though still flows the joint. Adding some contact to the joint (which dwarfs these tips, even the 1.8mm chisel) along the tip for less than 5mm they were able to deliver the same "30" or "31" as the other tips. The only limitation seems to be contact area, which makes sense from the curie heating being distributed and close to the plating. No thermal conductivity or mass comes into it. On any other station these would be considered completely inappropriate tip choices and you'd probably require a 3mm or 5mm chisel on such a joint.Either way all those tips were able to competently solder the joint at some stable level of power in the region of 25-30W. Perhaps the 40W thermaltronics stations might be up to the task the OP had?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2024, 10:28:43 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on June 29, 2024, 06:49:32 amIts definitely up to the task, just question of speed vs a T245 clone station or a 80W metcal.The T245 clones will have no problem pushing 60W+ with a fat tip. So for a $100 station you've already significantly surpassed the performance of the 40W stations, when we are specifically talking about OPs type of workloads with large surface areas.youtu.be/26KXtHZqhMg?t=979

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2024, 11:05:22 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on July 02, 2024, 10:28:43 pmThat's the rub, I'm not sure the "extra" power of conventional tips are actually making it to the joint (at high enough efficiency). The metcal power meter never went above the level of a fully wetted/molten joint on the plane so I doubt more power = faster, the different tips all pushed the same surprisingly low power into the joint.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2024, 11:44:12 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on July 02, 2024, 11:05:22 pmA thin copper plane is a bit different than a solid copper/brass EC8 connector. You can watch SDG's videos to see power into a copper coin, which is probably around the mass of a EC8+10AWG wire or so. He's shown power draw in excess of 80W.Where else do you think the power is going? We know some will be lost in the cable, PSU efficiency, but its not huge, and you can measure those if needed. I would guess its better than 75% efficient.On the Metcal you have to take into account the RF PSU efficiency, which I guess is in the range of 70-90% on the 5000. Or just use a RF watt meter.If I measure power at the wall on MX5000:- 5W idle - no tip- 90-105W when heating up - depends on tip- 80-90W with a 2p coin - also depends on tip (STTC-137 2mm, M7LC650 5mm long)So that means ~70-75W is going into the 2p coin. Much more than into an average PCB plane.edit: Managed to hit 101W at the wall with STTC-017 (5mm chisel) and 2p coin, essentially maxed out the station. A 2p coin weighs 7g, EC8 connector should be ~12g.