Should I support a local UK PCB vendor at 4 times the international price - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 05:55:25 pm
content: Hi all, I am stuck between a rock and a hard place and wonder what you would consider is the right thing to do.Lead time is not presently an issue.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 06:08:08 pm
content: Only 4X? Are you sure they do the work locally?Are there any quality/service/availability improvements (or detriments) to using the local service?Is the PCB a big part of your BOM total?

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 06:10:36 pm
content: Completely your call.I try to use companies that are at least friendly to the USA (obviously where I hail from) if I either can't find a US company, or I if there is a massive increase in price which I deem more than acceptable.Would I buy a US made item for $125 if I can get an international item for $100? YesWould I buy a US made item for $400 if I can get the exact same item internationally for $100? Probably not, unless other services came with the price.But you have to make the call yourself.For bare (or even assembled) PCBs, I tend to use S Korea myself as the US manufacturers are just INSANE on their prices. I'm talking adding more than a factor of 10 insane. Some of my boards are $25 from S Korea. US manufacturers wanted $500+ for the exact same gerbers. I'm sorry, no.

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 06:19:26 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on July 09, 2020, 06:08:08 pmOhh yes that's another Gotcha, just because there based in XYZ country doesn't mean they manufacture there!As far as I can tell there's no qualitative difference,I have used the offshore vendor before but thought I should investigate the current state of the local supply chain.

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 06:22:07 pm
content: Quote from: Rat_Patrol on July 09, 2020, 06:10:36 pmHaha just trying to use you guy's as an executive decision maker..........Pretty much what I would have said, interested in your S Korea manufacturer though, care to name them ?

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 06:40:15 pm
content: Quote from: fourtytwo42 on July 09, 2020, 06:22:07 pmquickturnpcb.co.krthey don't have a slick of a quoting system as JLC or PCBWay, and I usually get my tracking info AFTER the PCBs have arrived, but their quality and price have been very good for me. You an always email them your specs and they will send you back a quote. They caught a vital layout flaw for me once though; saved me over $500 in wasted PCBs and probably weeks of frustration in troubleshooting. They solidly earned my business after that.I only order larger 4 layer PCBs though, no idea on their pricing on smaller 2 sided.ETA: Looks like their quote engine has been improved to be a close match to other companies. Been a while since I've actually visited their website

author: Mattylad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 08:26:36 pm
content: Who is the UK fab?Have you tried discussing it with them?Perhaps haggle?

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 07:58:15 am
content: I used to use pcbtrain many years ago, I also note there is UK-pcb but I don't know where the product is made, UK-beta-layout are apparently from Germany as are Aisler, Eurocircuits & Wurth but all of these charge what I would consider to be premium prices. Yes a bit of haggling maybe worth while but it's usually based around expected volumes of several K/pa that I don's have and its a fairly small pcb only 120x125mm.Anyway thank you all for your comments I thought I would raise the issue and see what other peoples thoughts were.My moral imperative says buy local but at the moment the economics are weighed heavily against

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 08:26:45 am
content: This is a dilemma I face from time to time, and there's really only one sane answer. Of course we'd all prefer to pay 'a bit' more for a local supplier, for a whole host of obvious reasons.Unfortunately it's never 'a bit', but usually an order of magnitude more expensive to have a small batch of PCBs made by a UK supplier, and passing that cost on to my customers would make ME uncompetitive.Pragmatically, it's better for UK manufacturing industry - of which I'm a part! - to have my boards made overseas but assembled locally (by me). The alternative is that the boards are both fabricated AND assembled overseas.For reasons I can't fully explain, UK suppliers don't even seem to be interested in making the quote process as easy as it is from any number of Chinese vendors. It's still 'send us your Gerbers and wait for us to get back to you', which hasn't really changed since I used to fax suppliers a drill drawing and stack-up back in the 1990s.

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 10:48:24 am
content: Some of them (sites) are not to bad like pcb-train it's just the result that is scary! I agree with you I don't think there interested in small batches at all, there salesman will undoubtedly give big discounts when approached by a large company with K's/pa of volume, the website whilst slick is just there to put of the nuisance traffic like meWhilst UK manufacturers maintain that apparent attitude they cannot be surprised that they loose business to there more flexibly minded offshore competitors.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 11:29:08 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on July 10, 2020, 08:26:45 amI'd suggest because there's no point. People wanting a quick online quote are usually going to be shopping around on price, so are not going to choose the local manufacturer. As mentioned, the price difference is a whole order of magnitude. Those who must have their boards made locally and are willing to pay for it will most likely have a very formal quoting and supplier validation process that doesn't involve an online quote system.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 01:32:00 pm
content: You can think of it in a different way - if you order offshore, you become more competitive, so your business will grow faster and *you* will provide more local jobs.A lot of onshore PCB fabs are tailored towards defense contracts, which simply don't have a choice and will pay any price (using *your* money among other taxpayers). So in a way you already support them whether you want to or not.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 02:00:09 pm
content: If you do go for overseas, don't save on the airmail at this time. If my customers are willing to buy from me even I charge 4 times more, I would go all out to support locals. But they are not so kind even if I am $1 more. Make as much as I could, and donate what I could to local charities is my approach now - separating charity/feeling from business.

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 02:08:12 pm
content: I even stick to a german manufacturer for most stuff (professional), transferring more PCB-making back to good old germany (after the chinese batch is gone) - less pollution, less transport. 4 times the asian price is about right, but quick delivery and a partner which is easy to talk to. All the PCB population even happens ~6 km from my home.BRbabysitter

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 03:02:14 pm
content: The vote list should have "Only for Production" option.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 03:13:24 pm
content: The three choices given are clearly intended to reinforce the poster's biases. Leaving out the most meaningful reasons for making a choice is a sleazy move. Good people won't vote.Paying 4 times the price for local production is the route to it being 5 times next year, and 6 times the next. If people's feet aren't constantly held to the fire they just get lazier and lazier. I watched "buy British" attitudes in the 60s and 70s consign industry after industry to the waste bin, as they relied more and more on a dwindling pool of suckers who would put up with their junk.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 03:15:51 pm
content: PCB manufacturing is only the tip of the iceberg.There are so many custom components on a new product, including plastic molds and metal forming dies.Back in the 1990s, we found a Taiwanese supplier who would quote us molds and dies at 1/10 the cost of what we were getting from some US based ones. But the kicker is that they would also have them ready significantly faster, giving us ample time to do adjustments and corrections.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 04:09:18 pm
content: If it's for a product, is it still competitive with the higher costs? If yes, go for it. If not, you already have your answer.If it's hobby project, do you have the budget for it?

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 04:45:42 pm
content: Money saved allow you to reinvest on your own business, pay your people better, and waste more on your own research.

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 05:47:27 pm
content: Woww so many good replies thank you all very muchI think I am going to follow the path of a few suggestions and to assuage my conscience with the cheaper pcb generates more local jobs in other areas. I just have a gut feel that is a pcb cost more than 10% of a BOM something is wrong! (I don't mean the 10% to be taken to literally it's rather technology dependent but is probably a reasonable average).I think the reply that indicated local manufacturing tends to rely on defense and similar contracts is so true, I remember pcb-train is based in Kidsgrove that used to be the old ICL (mainframes) factory. I do not decry there business model, it obviously works for them and similar companies but they do not seem to address the low-cost short life-cycle commercial product market.I should not go on about one manufacturer other then it is one where I know the history and even had a plant tour many years ago. The German manufacturers seem caught in the same manner of business and the remainder who are less well known but based in Europe seem to be having there manufacturing done in Asia anyway, just charging fancy prices for being a middle man.So until something dramatic happens by way of sanctions or an awakening somewhere in European pcb manufacturing it will have to be Asia but at least everything else will be done here in the UK.I did look seriously at Australia, NZ, USA and even India but somehow there shipping costs let them down as well in some cases the big or bust attitude found in the UK & Europe.Once again many thanks to all who have participated in this thread, Ohh yes and I do admit bias as many OP's perhaps areas for the survey I agree it doesn't pose every option but then it's based on the KISS principle!Have fun and stay safe