Csiro invented wifi - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: merser
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 08:31:28 am
content: Been a reader of Hackaday for more than 15 years but here's a cropper of an article. The author Lewin Day poors sh#t on the claim our Csiro developed and patented wifi. Whats the go I always accepted the story. Has he got any basis to make such a claim.

author: merser
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 08:34:53 am
content: https://hackaday.com/2024/08/20/australia-didnt-invent-wifi-despite-what-youve-heard/Link to article

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 09:20:44 am
content: It seems to me that Wi-Fi was developed by many companies using technologies protected by many different patents and it makes no sense to say one single company or country invented it.Most modern inventions are like that.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 11:14:04 am
content: The article seems fair.After all, we all know that Hedy Lamarr invented WIFI.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 11:25:00 am
content: Might as well claim that Marconi invented WiFi

author: Tation
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 04:33:34 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on August 21, 2024, 11:25:00 amSorry, but Marconi didn't invent WiFi.Tesla did

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 04:39:34 pm
content: Nope, Wifi was invented in the Netherlands. First known as WaveLAN:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WaveLAN

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 04:48:26 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on August 21, 2024, 11:25:00 amCome on, youknowit was Tesla!

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 05:59:55 pm
content: OFDM was a result of DACs/ADCs developing, everyone was going to reinvent it around the same time ... but someone had to win the lottery.PS. no I see that was invented in the 80s, what fundamental concept does CSIRO claim to have invented exactly? Was it just one of those patents of "... but on the internet?" (Or in this case, ethernet.)

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 06:07:08 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on August 21, 2024, 05:59:55 pmThe comms book I studied in 1974 documented OFDM. It didn't call it that, and it said it seemed unlikely it would ever be commercially feasible. It was the book's hypothesis for "could you get really close to Shannon, if money were no object?".What kept OFDM out of the 3G cellular standards seems to have been mostly that everyone could see how to make OFDM work for continuous operation, like broadcast TV (it went into the digital TV and ADSL standards in the 90s), but not for bursty operation, like a multiple access system (e.g. cellular or Wi-Fi) needs. That took a bit more thinking. I assume people like CSIRO have claims on solutions to the bursty problem.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 07:14:50 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 21, 2024, 04:48:26 pmTesla was Dutch. Didn't you know?

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 07:36:50 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 21, 2024, 11:14:04 amWe can joke about Wi-Fi, but in fairness she did invent the idea of frequency hopping spread spectrum as a means of avoiding both jamming and interception.Her male friend in America was a musician, and her insight occurred when she was watching a player piano (pianola). She saw the patterns on the paper reel as it rolled upwards, observing that the horizontal position of the holes represented the frequency of the played note. Her inventive leap was realising that the notes could represent radio frequencies rather than sound frequencies, and that all it would need is for the receiver to have the same paper reel, synchronised, such that the transmitter and receiver would both be tuned to the same frequency at the same time. The "tune" could be random and never repeating, making it impossible to predict.She was obviously extremely smart, but also perhaps her mind was already prepared because her husband in Austria headed an armaments factory. Also, at the time it was difficult for a woman to be recognised as intellectually equipped to come up with inventions like this, so at first it was assumed her friend should take most of the credit. Later, she did get a patent with her name on it. It was probably fair to recognise both of them as co-inventors.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 09:07:24 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 07:14:50 pmNope, he was of serbian origin, but had the austrian and US citizenships. Nothing much dutch that I can tell?

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 09:20:27 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 21, 2024, 09:07:24 pmIt was just a little joke. A response to this from@nctnico:"Nope, Wifi was invented in the Netherlands. First known as WaveLAN:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WaveLAN".Y' know, so both "by Tesla" and "in the Netherlands" could be true.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 09:29:17 pm
content: Maybe they meant "Holland".

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 09:34:04 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 07:36:50 pmI had an interesting experience many years ago. I moved companies, and a year later was recruited back. Key people knew what I could do, and wanted me back. However, there were interesting tales going around the company when I returned. I had got the blame for things I had never even heard of, let alone been involved in. Things I was proud of as key successes somehow had someone else's name attached to them. Be very sceptical of who is being lauded or blamed for things. My experience was after one year. I assume as memories fade, and distortions will be countered less, the distortions get even worse.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 09:49:23 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 21, 2024, 09:34:04 pmOK, but the history around Lamarr is not at all controversial. Are you applying that scepticism just to Hedy Lamarr, or all inventors?One of the things that seems clear is that many inventions, and many scientific discoveries, almost seem like their time has come and if one person hadn't invented it, someone else would have the next day. That probably would not apply to frequency hopping spread spectrum because it wasn't adopted by the US Navy (for whom it was intended) and basically went forgotten for twenty years or more. So it seems fair to say it was an invention well ahead of its time.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 10:01:52 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 09:49:23 pmExpress scepticism to any attribution. Who had the real interesting ideas? Who actually did the grunt work? Who wrote the paper? WTF did that name get on the patent application?A huge number of brilliant steps forward were so ahead of their time nobody really thought they were feasible, or really grasped them for decades, until the original idea was lost. The original people sometimes get recognition long after the rediscovery. Like people finding that sampling was moderately well understood by multiple mathematicians and statisticians, like Whittaker and Kotelnikov, decades before it had high relevance in electronics. Problems there are unfortunate, but must be expected. That is quite different from the wrong people getting their names on work.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 10:21:42 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 07:36:50 pmIt was a semi-serious suggestion, much more so than the later-mentioned Marconi or Tesla. Lamarr's work was recognised in an award by the Electronic Frontier Foundation in 1997, the year the first 2 Mbps 802.11 products went on sale.https://web.archive.org/web/20071016063043/http://w2.eff.org/awards/pioneer/1997.phpLamarr died January 19, 2000, six months after Steve Jobs introduced the iBook with WIFI on 21 July 1999. Jobs introduced the "Airport" WIFI base station as the "one more thing" announcement in the same keynote.There were a few 802.11 2 Mbps products in 1997, but they were expensive and rare. The original 2 Mbps cards in 1997 cost around $1000. Apple was one of the first to have 11 Mbps 802.11b products and I'm pretty sure the actual first to have them in a low end consumer product -- the first iBook ($1499), not the "professional" MacBook or desktops. Lucent WaveLAN 802.11b cards cost $300 or $400. Apple's optional Airport card for the original iBook sold for $99. Apple's Airport base station sold for $299. Lucent/Orinoco and 3COM base stations were around $400 and Cisco $1000.I seriously think Hedy has as much claim to have invented WIFI as CSIRO do, if not more. Both had key ideas and got patents. Neither commercialised anything. Neither had anything to do with the actual standard or products that eventually went on sale.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 11:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 21, 2024, 10:21:42 pmDo modern wi-fi chips still support those old spread spectrum modes, for backward compatibility, or are they pure OFDM now? Interestingly, the 5GHz bands have always been exclusively OFDM. Spread spectrum was only used at 2.4GHz.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 11:23:02 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 21, 2024, 10:21:42 pmI don't think Lamarr could possibly be described as the (or 'an') inventor of WiFi. She invented frequency hopping spread spectrum. That is maybe 5% of WiFi - there's so much more to it.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 11:27:05 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 21, 2024, 11:18:36 pmHey,@coppice, do you have time to expand on the differences? I thought OFDM was one example of spread spectrum, but I'm no expert and keen to learn.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 11:29:54 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 11:23:02 pmIts now 0% of wi-fi. I wonder how many things are left using spread spectrum? More importantly, does it have any interesting qualities that would make people use it for anything new going forwards? Perhaps in ULP applications that need some robustness?

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 11:34:48 pm
content: Lots of myths here...See IEEE Spectrum in Heday Lamarr, SIGSALY and spread spectrum.Jon

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 11:39:05 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 11:23:02 pmI didn't claim she invented WIFI.I said she has as much claim as CSIRO do -- a very different thing.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 11:57:13 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 11:27:05 pmWhat is usually called spread spectrum uses a single carrier which hops around in some manner, so it spreads over a fairly wide band. Usually, multiple users are hopping over the same chunk of spectrum, with different hoping patterns, to keep them distinct. This can be very robust in the presence of interference sources, as with some redundancy and error detection/correlation in the protocol you can work around the chunks of data being sent when the carrier hits the interference frequency. OFDM uses the same carrier frequencies all the time, but you have lots of concurrent carriers within a band, separated in frequency in a way they keeps them orthogonal to each other. That is, not mutually interfering. At the receiver any carriers being hit by interference won't demodulate properly, while the rest will. Then with some redundancy and error detection/correction you can work around those problem carriers. The final result is interesting, as each carrier operates at a relatively low symbol rate for the total amount of spectrum being used, equalising away multi-path interference is much easier than with a single carrier of the same total bandwidth operating at a very high symbol rate. In mobile systems that's a huge plus, as the multi-pathing is constantly changing. Even in static applications, it can be a big win. Analogue TV suffered from ghosting due to multi-pathing, and those ghosts could be quite dynamic when there were trees blowing on windy days and so on. The OFDM TV standards just work.So, spread spectrum is a relatively narrow band signal spread around a broader chunk of spectrum in a predetermined pattern which the receiver can follow. OFDM just fills an often quite large chunk of spectrum with carrriers, which are not spread around.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 01:53:40 am
content: Quote from: coppice on August 21, 2024, 11:29:54 pmBluetooth still uses FHSS.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 02:18:22 am
content: I didn't think WiFi used FHSS apart from the very first standard, when it was quickly dropped in favour of the more resistant direct sequence spreading?As with all modern standards, they're pretty complicated meaning that no one person actually "invented", but rather tens of different technologies, likely involving the contributions of thousands, with a combination of different breakthroughs and survival of various ideas eventually coalescing into a usable standard.People still like to cling on to the idea of a lone maverick inventor/Doctor/Scientist who somehow fights the establishment and changes our world. Sure, its happened, but its far more common that advancements are made incrementally across many fields - which makes it less appealing and much harder to assign credit. Sure people like their heroes, but they often twist the facts to support them.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 09:56:28 am
content: Quote from: coppice on August 21, 2024, 11:57:13 pmTotally brilliant! Thank you for that excellent explanation. I've checked and as you said earlier, @coppice, modern WiFi doesn't use spread spectrum any more, although 802.11b used to. As such, I don't think we can give any credit to Lamarr for modern-day WiFi.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 10:12:56 am
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on August 22, 2024, 02:18:22 amTotally agree. WiFi is a massively collaborative effort. I don't think we can even use the word "invented" for it - perhaps "developed" is more suited.Quote from: Buriedcode on August 22, 2024, 02:18:22 amAgain I totally agree. That description probably expired around the end of the 19th century. Nowadays collaboration is pretty much the only way to push the boundaries forward.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 11:41:27 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 07:36:50 pmBut in the end - I have invented frequency hopping, too. It is one of those fairly simple ideas, which just come to you when you have a problem to solve, and you can design them on a napkin. Frequency hopping specifically isn't a mathematically heavy concept; just come up with rules to switch frequencies, and have all participants follow them. These rules could be as simple as following a list, or maybe producing pseudo-random numbers with LFSR or similar.What defines an actual real invention is howhundredsof such simple ideas arecombinedto implement something which works and is useful as a whole. And as such, many real inventions therefore belong to teams of people; many who remain unnamed but possibly contributed more than those whose names are written in books of history.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 11:53:54 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on August 22, 2024, 11:41:27 amSimply hopping around will get you some measure of stealth, but if its communications performance you are after you need to go further. You need to truly integrate all those "chips" of the signal to see a processing gain, and head towards the Shannon limit. That's when spread spectrum gets interesting for commercial use. When Lamarr published her ideas, the maths of that hadn't even been figured out. She was working in WW2. The channel capacity theorem wasn't developed until just after WW2. Similar things happened with other technologies in WW2. They chirped radars, so that they could pump out more intense pulses, without the peak energy causing flashovers in waveguides and so on. It wasn't until the early 60s that a proper mathematical analysis of how that smearing of the signal over time also brings a processing gain, and improves the radar's performance. I always find it odd that that took so long. Once you read Shannon from 1948, it kinda naturally follows.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 01:21:54 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on August 22, 2024, 11:41:27 amWell OK - that'syourdefinition of an invention, but it isn't the generally accepted one:U.S. Patent Law: a new, useful process, machine, improvement, etc., that did not exist previously and that is recognized as the product of some unique intuition or genius, as distinguished from ordinary mechanical skill or craftsmanship.It says nothing about how many people are involved.Quote from: Siwastaja on August 22, 2024, 11:41:27 amThat's the problem with many inventions: once invented they seem obvious and trigger the usual chorus of "Well,Icould have invented that!" I think there are two things at play here. Firstly, as technology advances some inventions seem almost inevitable, and if one person didn't come up with it another would have done the next day. Secondly, it is often the case that we cannot send our mind back in time and appreciate what the intellectual landscape was like at the time. In 21st century eyes, spread spectrum seems so obvious it's like we were born knowing about it, but 85 years ago it was a very different world.You claim to have invented spread spectrum yourself, presumably before learning about it. I don't believe you: anyone vaguely interested in modern technology will have heard or read about it - perhaps only at the most superficial level - by the time they are young adults. We are surrounded by this type of technology and an inquisitive mind can discover this stuff so easily these days. It's important to remember that Lamarr's intellectual breakthroughhappened in the complete absence of modern day context.And the fact that her invention remained unused for 20 years does suggest that it was before its time, and that it wasn't obvious. When there is no obvious application, an obvious solution seems unlikely.Anyway, I remain happy to give Lamarr full credit for it. I think observing a pianola and suddenly realising that the notes can represent different carrier frequencies, and by fitting out the receiver with the same piano roll and syncing their start, the two can send information that is secure and very hard to jam... well, I think it was a tremendous insight in the context of that time.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 02:49:57 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 11:23:02 pmShe did not. There was a great deal of prior art, and her patent doesn't seem to add anything important.For all the details, see this excellent article:https://www.americanscientist.org/article/random-paths-to-frequency-hopping

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 05:17:05 pm
content: Before retirement, the IP department of the parent corporation would send a patent attorney to summarize the law and encourage us to file patent disclosures with the company based on our work.Legal definitions do not always correspond to dictionary definitions: he reminded us that our inventions should make logical sense to us, but that did not necessarily mean "obvious" (obvious to one skilled in the art).

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 06:31:02 pm
content: Since wireless "ethernet" in the form of ALOHAnet predated wired Ethernet, the idea of the "invention of WiFI" is a bit of a dubious concept. Obviously the 802.11 family of standards have a bunch of technical features including the spread spectrum techniques that were not present in ALOHAnet, but the thing that makes wifi important was the standardization process. They collected a bunch of interesting and important technologies that already existed, combined them into a useful standard, and got vendors and regulators all harmonized so that it could be widely produced and used.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 06:33:50 pm
content: My point is, question all superhero inventor stories unless youtrulyunderstand what the invention really was.Real work isalmost alwaysa lot of teamwork (explicitly, and also implicitly by utilizing ideas of others, we are not in a vacuum) - and a lot of perspiration.Making a big deal about having a patent is nearly always a red flag. 99.9% of patents are trivial or outright trolling. Laymen still awe patents and those who hold them, but if you have to actually read them (and I have had, filing my own), your eyes start bleeding.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 06:40:23 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on August 22, 2024, 02:49:57 pmThanks for the link - excellent article.I think this is complicated. Loads of inventions have prior art, even though they aren't supposed to. The article gives a great account of the complex ways new technologies emerge. I'm sure a similar story could be told for all sorts of inventions. Also, the same thing might legitimately be invented more than once when the inventors are unaware of the prior art. Does credit go to the first person to get a patent? Or the first person to come up with the idea? Or the first person to reveal their idea to the world? How can you prove those latter two?As for Lamarr, we cannot know if she was aware of the prior art. It is also clear from the article that we cannot attribute the invention definitively to any other individual, either. Several people were thinking along the same lines. Therefore I think we can safely say she was "one of the inventors of frequency hopping as a method of preventing jamming". This acknowledges that others were also thinking along the same lines, some of them well before Lamarr.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 06:47:14 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on August 22, 2024, 06:33:50 pmI think that is spot on. Heroic lone inventors are exceedingly rare, and every such story should be treated with scepticism.In the case of Lamarr, she came up with a great idea, but we've no idea if she was aware of prior art. (I didn't realise there was so much, and I'm happy to stand corrected.)

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 08:36:12 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 22, 2024, 06:40:23 pmHumans are block stackers. If you get to stack just one very thin block on the stack you are a hero. If you get to stack 2 you are in Newton's league.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 09:50:46 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 21, 2024, 10:21:42 pmWhat was remarkable about the pricing of the first-gen AirPort hardware is that it was all made by Lucent, but sold for far less!The original AirPort card is a Lucent WaveLAN Gold card without the antenna bulge, and with a customized PCMCIA connector keyed to prevent it from fitting in regular PC Card slots. (But a regular PC Card WaveLAN card would function in an AirPort slot, you just couldn’t close the case…) And the original AirPort Base Station contained a completely ordinary, retail-labeled WaveLAN Silver card!

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 10:28:33 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 22, 2024, 09:50:46 pmNot the only time Apple has done that. In the same time period (well, two years later) the original iPod sold for less than the IBM 1.8" 5 GB hard disk inside it.To some extent this can be because Apple probably placed firm orders for those components that were a multiple of what the manufacturer otherwise expected their total sales to be, so the manufacturer knew in advance that their NRE was going to spread over a lot more units.It can also be Apple setting a price that they expect to create large sales volume and accepting low margins or maybe even negative at first to kick-start the ecosystem.It would not have hurt that both Airport card and original (Firewire) iPod were accessories that were useless without a (high margin) Macintosh computer and that made that Mac more desirable than it otherwise would have been -- the "Halo Effect".The Airport base station, which could be used with any kind of computer, undercut Lucent by much less than the Mac-only Airport card.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 10:37:20 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 22, 2024, 09:50:46 pmNot that remarkable really. Lucent was a silicon vendor and an equipment vendor. In general you can't charge silly prices for silicon, unless you have a solid patent lock on some technique, or are making hay with the competition catches up. Silicon vendors need volume. They have to go with the flow. Other major equipment + silicon vendors, like Motorola, had similar dynamics at play for a number of key product lines.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 07:44:51 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 22, 2024, 10:28:33 pmActually you’re confounding two distinct drives there.The original iPod (and all the other “full size” iPods, ending with iPod classic) used 1.8” drives from Toshiba. I don’t think there was ever any other widespread use of 1.8” drives. (The original MacBook Air used them, but they didn’t sell that many of those.)The drive that you’re thinking of, where the iPod cost less than the drive contained within, was the iPod mini, which used a 4GB IBM Microdrive, a 1.2” hard disk in the Compact Flash form factor. The entire iPod mini cost less than Hitachi’s* street price for the drive alone! So indeed, for a short while, some photographers bought iPod minis just to harvest the drives from them.*By the time the iPod mini shipped, Hitachi had bought IBM’s drive business.Quote from: brucehoult on August 22, 2024, 10:28:33 pmI’m sure that is how it worked.To this day, Apple is famous for securing extremely favorable pricing and/or preferential delivery schedules by committing to staggeringly large component purchases. (Indeed, supply chain management is one of Apple’s biggest strengths that most people are completely unaware of.)

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 11:04:15 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 23, 2024, 07:44:51 pmI only got the manufacturer confused. PCMCIA cards using the 1.8" 5 GB drive were introduced in July 2001 at a price of $400.https://www.dpreview.com/articles/9909949603/toshiba5gbpcmciaThe original iPod using the same drive was introduced on October 23, 2001 sold for $399. OK, it's not cheaper, but you got a whole lot of extra functionality for free. I bought an original iPod and put it in my accounts as "portable hard drive" -- which is what I in fact primarily used it for. It was a whole lot smaller than other portable storage solutions at the time.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2024, 01:10:34 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 23, 2024, 11:04:15 pmThe iPod did not use a PCMCIA hard drive, it was a custom (AFAIK) version with a ZIF ATA connection. So notexactlythe same drive. (In contrast, the iPod mini used a bog-standard Microdrive.)But yes, compared to the PCMCIA version of the drive, you got a free music player with it.