Out of flux...can I go molest a pine tree to get some? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Evil Lurker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 09:54:51 pm
content: I let myself run out of flux and have yet to get around to ordering some more. So I got to thinking that rosin from what I understand is basically pine sap. In my part of the world there are loblolly, virginia, shortleaf, and white pines scattered about everywhere. Even got a few on my property that I need to get rid of. Is it as easy as scraping up some sap (might have to go to the local sawmill, that would be easiest way), dissolving it in alcohol (methanol is cheap from the farm supply place), filtering it to get the debris out of it, evaporating off the alcohol, and heating the finished goop up to drive off most of the lower boiling volatile organic compounds? I'm fairly certain it would not be anywhere in the same league as something made by the likes of Kester, but all I need is a small amount to get me by.Also for what it is worth I am thinking about ordering some cheap electronic toys and what not from some Chinese sellers on Ebay. Is there any of that Chinese flux that is worth a darn? I mean you'd think that as much electronics crap that country manufactures there should be something that would not be too bad.Anyways, look over me, it's be one of those days and I'm feeling extra facetious this afternoon.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 09:59:38 pm
content: Try it and let us know how it works out... this is how things are invented.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 11:30:11 pm
content: From the way you worded it, it sounds like your problem is the ETA of the item, and you need it sooner that that, right? (And I assume there is no electronic stores near you...)If you need it very quickly, see if there is a music store that sells violin / classical music supplies.Violin uses rosin for the bow. So do other bow-string instruments like viola and cello. You may be able to get some rosin blocks there - typically block size is about 1-2 inches long by 0.5-1 inch wide, and about same width as height so it fits into a violin case. Price varies depending on quality, from a few bucks up.You need some alcohol to dissolve the rosin and off you go...

author: SAI_Peregrinus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 02:28:30 am
content: Rosin is sap that's been boiled to remove the lighter terpenes. So if you want to make rosin from the sap you'll want to distill it. Since it's the heavier/higher boiling point product you don't need a still, you can vent the fumes. Just keep the stuff in the pot under about 160C (and over 100C) and it should be fine.Stick rosin in denatured alcohol (cheap from a hardware store), filter it through coffee filters or similar to remove particulate matter, and you'll get a reasonable liquid flux. You can get powdered rosin cheaply from many sporting goods stores, it's used as a grip enhancer. Should be under $20/lb. Often much cheaper than that from music shops, and it's already powdered so it dissolves faster. Easier than boiling sap.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 03:28:59 am
content: Local music store for rosin (violin bow). Place in a cloth bag smash up with hammer, put in jar cover with 99% iso (go easy on it don't fill the jar just cover the chunks) leave overnight and strain off the liquid. It can take a week to dissolve all the rosin but you can get enough off it to use in a few hours.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 03:30:42 am
content: Quote from: SAI_Peregrinus on April 17, 2015, 02:28:30 amWon't the terpenes disappear rapidly once they hit the soldering iron anyway? I suspect this step is optional.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 03:49:02 am
content: Quote from: rs20 on April 17, 2015, 03:30:42 amIf by "disappear" you mean vaporize and float around getting into things like nasal passages, then yes.Checkout the "Hazards" section ofhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TurpentineThere is more than one reason people (where possible) move from gum turpentine to "mineral turpentine" (which really bears no resemblance but for a few uses is good enough).Burning green pine and copping a lungful of the smoke is pretty unpleasant. I'd not want a concentrated version of that coming off the end of my iron.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 04:02:50 am
content: As mentioned above, you can make your own (can also find raw rosin under the term colophony, and it's sold on eBay). Requires additional chemistry to make RMA and RA (activators). Technical datasheets should offer you a clue here.But as it seems you're willing to order flux from China (I don't recommend doing this), you'd be better off buyingMG Chemicals Rosin 835(it's an RA formulation, equivalent to Kester 1544). Comes in hobbyist friendly sized containers (4 fl. oz & 1 L), is of excellent quality, and priced right as well. It would also arrive faster as the links are for US sellers.There are also sellers on eBay that break up large containers of Kester (959, 186, ...) and sell in smaller quantities (i.e.2.5oz bottle of 186). I've gotten 186 from this seller, and 1544 fromSkycraft(physical store in Orlando).

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 04:15:57 am
content: Quote from: BradC on April 17, 2015, 03:49:02 amI concede (and thank you for the info) to the extent that I wasn't aware that terpenes were quite that bad, although the dose makes the poison, the amount of sap being used would be tiny, and most of us are pretty good at keeping our head out of the solder smoke (because even the good stuff is still pretty unpleasant), chronic vs acute, maybe the OP has an extractor fan, etc, etc.What I'm saying is, good call pointing out that terpenes are nasty to some extent; but performing a separate boiling step is perhaps not the only way to ameliorate those dangers (and, if you choose to go down the boiling route, you have to be careful you do that boiling in a well-ventilated place, too.) Of course, it's not called rosin until you boiled it (as you pointed out originally), so if you want rosin, then you have to boil it :-)

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 04:43:02 am
content: If you have pine trees then look for a pine log with knots in it, and cut out the knotty area. then simply wipe the iron across it, and it will be cleaned nicely. I do that regularly in the garage with the firestick, and it has survived for decades that way.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 05:41:46 am
content: Quote from: rs20 on April 17, 2015, 04:15:57 amI wasn't either. It wasn't until I was sloshing around some real turps one day and my neighbour (who has done a lot of work in OH&S with chemicals) said "You should really go and look that stuff up", that I did.On the dose making the poison, I absolutely agree. And yes, the qty likely to be present in the situation being discussed is probably tiny, but if you can just boil it up in a tin can on the BBQ and remove that completely, why wouldn't you?

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 06:28:26 am
content: Also, rock hard pale rosin leaves a residue that is inert, non-conductive and easy to remove mechanically. Once cold, excess flux round the joint simply scrapes off and far less alcohol is required for cleanup.If you use raw resin, the residue will be sticky and will attract dust and other contaminants which are likely to cause surface leakage. The lighter terpenes boiling will also to some extent drive the flux away from the joint.If possible avoid dark rosin. Its likely to contain more contaminants, tends to have a lower melting point and if obtained commercially, may be blended with substances that may be beneficial for enhancing friction for the musician or athlete, but certainly wont be helpful in a flux.

author: Evil Lurker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 08:25:57 am
content: For what it is worth, I own a farm out in a very rural area where most of the population is barely qualified to plug a toaster into a mains wall socket.... because of that there is just not enough demand to support any specialized brick and mortar electronic components and accessory shop anywhere within a reasonable driving distance of my home. Same could be said for a lot of other things that like to break down as well. But the deal is time doesn't stand still, and many times things need to be temporarily patched up to where they are capable of halfway functioning using a combination of third world engineering skills and whatever raw materials you have on hand at the moment. In the long run these sort of repairs are typicality inefficient, possibly hazardous, and have a nasty tendency to become complete time vampires. But it sure beats me sitting around twiddling my thumbs waiting for the UPS man to get my package to me.They deal with the DIY flux is no exception. But as crazy as it sounds I have actually come to enjoy such sadomasochistic follies. The way I look at things is generally when I go on a windmill tilting spree I learn something new in the process, it helps keep my creative skills sharp, and gives me an outlet for said creativity. Technically I guess I could do the same thing with sudoku puzzles but for me the end result being a page full of numbers in little boxes just isn't anywhere near as satisfying.... nor has it the possibility of emitting a smokey pine incense smell in the process.I gotta get out and do some running later on today and will see what I can scrape up... literally.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 01:18:25 pm
content: Quote from: Evil Lurker on April 17, 2015, 08:25:57 amDon't get the impression we are trying to discourage you. Quite the opposite. Just pointing out that there is a process and boiling out the terpenes is part of it. Personally I look forward to your writeup (you will do one won't you?) to let us know what you did, how you did it and how good it smelt.I'm the same. I often built, brew & concoct what I could relatively easily buy for either expedience, experience or often both. Drives my wife mad most of the time but keeps curiosity at bay.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 05:22:16 pm
content: During WWII the allied prisoners of war used pine sap as flux when they were building their clandestine radio sets.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 07:47:58 pm
content: Assuming you have decent flux core solder, more flux is almost never required.

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 09:16:22 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on April 17, 2015, 07:47:58 pmThis. I used to hand solder bits of missiles. Not once did we use anything past silver or straight lead multicore. Not sure what all this flux voodoo worship is all about.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 09:24:01 pm
content: Quote from: smjcuk on April 17, 2015, 09:16:22 pmI bet they are just in it to get high on the flux fumes!

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 10:54:36 pm
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on April 17, 2015, 03:28:59 amI used to make desolder braid from the outer of coax and violin rosin when I was a kid, maybe 10 or 11 years old, so 40 years or so ago. I would melt the rosin onto the braid by heating the braid up with the iron and drawing it through the braid. It worked, but it wasn't great.Thing is, things like desolder braid were not as cheap and easily available as they are now. And I'd hazard a guess that my career as electronic engineer has been far more lucrative than that as a violinist. I was shit at it, but the parents seemed to think it was the right thing to do. I can play drums and sax reasonably well though, but they have yet to earn me a penny either.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 09:02:23 pm
content: Flux is pretty much essential if you need to touch up a joint after soldering. I use a water based flux pen that works wonders, but it's hell on your soldering iron tips.Sent from my Tablet

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 11:19:32 am
content: I just use a solder sucker and braid to clean up the hole and do it again properly

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 04:03:04 pm
content: The only time I've ever used flux is for soldering some old cable which had badly oxidised. Most of the time the rosin in the solder is enough.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 04:05:17 pm
content: How do you "I never use flux" people solder QFN or DFN or fine-pitch QFP...?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 04:20:39 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on April 19, 2015, 04:05:17 pm+1Drag soldering absolutely requires additional flux to be done properly.

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 04:32:32 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on April 19, 2015, 04:05:17 pmWe just buy the same device in a DIL package

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 05:56:20 pm
content: Quote from: smjcuk on April 19, 2015, 04:32:32 pmAnd what do you plan to do when you can't cheat anymore?

author: crash2140
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 06:13:25 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on April 17, 2015, 05:22:16 pmAnd how did they solder? I guess they probably heated a piece of metal.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 06:24:16 pm
content: Quote from: crash2140 on April 19, 2015, 06:13:25 pmEver tried to solder without heating metal?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 06:56:36 pm
content: I remember of reading of how a kit was built, but which did not work. Sent in for repair, the service guy looked at it, and visually it was perfect, all components inserted correctly, in the right places and wired up perfectly with all joints looking perfect. On the application of solder to try a joint it turned out the kit builder had used liquid solder to assemble the kit. This is meant for repairing metal articles like pot metal, not for current carrying so is insulating.

author: crash2140
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 08:02:45 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on April 19, 2015, 06:24:16 pmI meant soldering by taking a piece of wire, exposing it to fire, and using it as a soldering iron.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 12:54:54 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on April 19, 2015, 04:05:17 pmA good stereo microscope + good small diameter rosin core solder + small Metcal iron tip = great solder joins every time on any leaded package going pin by pin. And there is no rework to clean up all the shorts like with drag soldering.No leaded are a different story. Those are paste and a hot air rework station.

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 06:55:09 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on April 19, 2015, 05:56:20 pmPlanning on being dead by then

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 07:45:50 am
content: Quote from: smjcuk on April 20, 2015, 06:55:09 amOK... that's one solution I guess...Having a board house do your assembly is another.But I have to ask; are you ancient & falling apart or just suffer severe depression?

author: Evil Lurker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 09:15:38 am
content: Sorry guys, I have yet to get out and acquire any pine sap as it is the monsoon season here in Tennessee! Well not really but it has been raining off and on every few hours with the occasional lighting storm and I have yet to feel the need to get drowned out on the bike (which I pretty much use as my sole form of transportation whenever it warms up enough). Weatherman is calling for partly cloudy today with a high of 66F and clear skies tomorrow with a high of 71F (which is actually quite cool for this time of year in my location). I think the plan is to get out and head over towards a sawmill near Savannah, TN on the way to the tractor dealership to get my "toy" up and running for spring planting and haying season.As far as processing the resin goes, whenever I find some, I'm debating on digging out my old chemistry set and throwing the vacuum aspirator pump to the crude product which should cut down on any fumes plus leave a cleaner finished product as there will be less heat degradation. I won't have much time to tinker with electronics over the next few weeks or anything else as I will be busier than a three legged cat trying to bury turds on a frozen pond with getting my crops planted and hay in the barn. In addition I am thinking about going back to school. The state government is paying to send students to technical college free up until May the 10th or so I think. I can't decide if I want to take a course in automotive repair/collision, HVAC, or what I am thinking of some sort of electronics technician certification. Income from farming and moonlighting in electronics is feast or famine and would be nice to have a steady employment. I'm thinking industrial maintenance would be right up my alley and the pay wouldn't be too bad. Not nearly as nice as a white collar job but less B.S. to put up with and it shouldn't get too boring as you never know what will need to be worked on next.Will keep everyone posted.

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 09:28:37 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on April 20, 2015, 07:45:50 amNeither. I have a large stock of analogue parts and throgh hole things

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 09:58:12 am
content: Quote from: crash2140 on April 19, 2015, 08:02:45 pmand what do you think, where is the name "soldering IRON" coming from ?back in time they had a iron with a handle heated in fire and used that for soldering - mainly soldering pots (as electronics didn't exist back then)

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 10:02:05 am
content: Quote from: smjcuk on April 20, 2015, 06:55:09 amwrong planingmany parts are already not available in DIP (just NOS of larger distributors) and newer parts are not available in DIP from the beginning of their production.

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 10:17:07 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on April 20, 2015, 10:02:05 amCan still get bags of NPN transistors - the world is your oysterI actually made a simple series pass regulator in 5 mins with two BC337s, 3 resistors and a zener last night because I didn't have a 78L05 or a 317 handy. That approach scales up to differential amplifier and current source level quite easily. "use what you have handy".I'm working with pretty much the lowest common denominator of components. All analogue, few op-amps and then standard ones and basic logic. I tend not to delve into micrcontrollers and above or frequencies greater than 30MHz as that's too close to my day job. 99% of my designs are small units with less than 20 components and are fully analogue.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 10:46:19 am
content: Quote from: smjcuk on April 20, 2015, 10:17:07 amsure you can get lot's of through hole parts - those are still manufactured - and still will be around for a long time. actually i'm a through hole fan, but had to switch to SMD devices as well because some are simply not available - e.g. most of the non-jellybean opamps are either soic/so8 or the 5 or 6 lead version of sot23/sot70

author: Monittosan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 10:53:31 am
content: Quote from: smjcuk on April 20, 2015, 10:17:07 amSounds like some interesting projects! care to share any designs?

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 11:07:35 am
content: Quote from: Monittosan on April 20, 2015, 10:53:31 amThey're all on paper at the moment. Will do a web site when I get some time.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 05:32:50 pm
content: Quote from: smjcuk on April 20, 2015, 11:07:35 amLooking forward to it.