Free energy theory teardown - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: sgix
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 18, 2011, 06:21:29 pm
content: Hi!I was wondering, if Dave could do a video about (so called) "free energy". To start for example with this videoand then find the error in the video and the theory.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2011, 06:40:01 pm
content: I fear watching the video will be a waste of time. I can tell you the answer with high likelihood just by seeing the opening screen capture. Most of the 'magnets, how the fuck do they work' style perpetual motion/free energy machines are simple scams with hidden batteries or other external power sources. They exploit the fact that magnets often behave intuitively to convince people that magnetism is not understood. With some of the other free energy genres you might charitably assume that at least a few of the purveyors have tricked themselves as well as their audience (although they steadfastly refuse to do even simple tests that would prove them correct). Anything with lots of prominent magnetic coils or electric motors is just a straight up scam.As for the flaw in their theory: see Maxwell's equations. They conserve energy. QED.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2011, 06:46:09 pm
content: He does not even demonstrate how it works, not that i followed his theory uch and not that I know much about transformers but i think basically he is just testiculating (talking bollocks) about something he clearly does not understand.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2011, 08:31:28 pm
content: It's not free energy, it's either some hidden energy in the scams or some already made, unclaimed energy like background RF radiation you can use with a coil of wire to get minuscule amounts of power.The point is, if someone found a way to bypass the second law of thermodynamics, they would get every science prize there is including an instant Nobel prize and then they would become the wealthiest person in the world by undercutting all power companies with what is basically free energy. Not selling some scam bullshit on youtube.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2011, 08:35:12 pm
content: Quote from: ndictu on September 18, 2011, 08:31:28 pmaint that the truth, and pity so many scammed people don't sit and think for 2 seconds and work that out

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2011, 09:18:21 pm
content: It would be the first objective and scientific teardown of a "free energy" machine in the history of mankind if it ever happened. For some unknown reason, all the inventors of these machines never let anyone else look at them really closely. Amazing that.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2011, 11:13:49 pm
content: So I got bored and decided to waste a few minutes watching the video. I didn't make it through the whole thing, but I have a couple of more detailed points.On the experimental side, it is somewhat difficult to critique as he doesn't go through his entire layout. There is no guarantee that the system is hooked up properly. Two obvious potential problems: None of his meters are true RMS. If the waveforms are for some reason non-sinusoidal that could cause measurement errors. Also, his choice of a clamp meter for the primary measurement is highly dubious. He is measuring a 3 milliamp current on a 4 amp range. A quick google didn't turn up the data sheet for the meter, but even if it is +/- 1 count, that could account for a large fraction of the discrepancy.On the theory side, I didn't get very far, but I saw enough to understand why his claims are BS. The claim is that by having multiple secondaries and magnetic flux paths he creates a transformer where the primary to secondary mutual inductance is supposed to be different than the secondary to primary mutual inductance. I don't think he used this term because then it would be transparently obvious why he is wrong: anyone who is studied E&M at the college level knows that mutual inductance is reflexive, and that is easily seen from the formula.Anyway, it looked like he was going to go through a 10 minutes long explanation of the magnetic flux paths and what they do at each point in the cycle. Since you already know that the mutual inductance is reflexive, this is just a waste of time.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2011, 11:28:22 pm
content: I propose awards for 'free energy' projects. If we have 'pylon of the month', then surely we must have 'free energy project of the month'.What criteria do you think we should use?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2011, 11:41:14 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on September 18, 2011, 11:13:49 pmThat is why I won't give these people the time of day.There is never sufficient data to tear them apart completely. And the free energy scammers are clever, they will use selective quoting to show how "industry experts" support their claims and theories.As Richard Dawkins says about debating creationists - "It'll look better on their resume than on mine".Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2011, 11:52:09 pm
content: Quote from: Alex on September 18, 2011, 11:28:22 pmThe number of people sucked into the schemes would be my first pass.This mob have sucked in many hundreds of investors:http://www.steorn.comI was contacted by one member of their "forum" and trying to debunk it, because they have been unable to.Of course they haven't been able to, they all paid many hundreds or thousands of dollars to join the forum and get access to the "technology" and then are under NDA to not say anything about it.The smarter ones have walked away, but I'm still told there are hundreds who remain invested in it.Be prepared for bullshit overload:https://www.youtube.com/user/SteornOfficialDave.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2011, 12:42:12 am
content: There are two categories these things fall into1) People who are knowingly trying to scam youand2) People who believe they have discovered something newThe issue is that it's almost impossible to know which applies. The scammers are quite skilled at what they do.I have nothing against the 2nd type. If people want to try all sorts of crazy circuits and machines in the hope of actually finding some undiscovered effect then that's fine with me as long as they're not exploiting other people.Quite often category 2 people don't have the qualifications needed to understand what they are doing and it leads to incorrect assumptions.However sometimes not being weighed down by conventional ideas is helpful in discovering new things.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2011, 12:57:42 am
content: I don't have the time or inclination to watch this kind of video, but I am reminded of an interview when Richard Feynman was asked to explain why magnets attract each other. Paraphrasing greatly, he said that magnetic attraction or repulsion is one of the fundamental forces of the universe. You can't explain it in terms of anything else because there is nothing else to explain it by. Magnets attract or repel each other because they do. That's just how it is, end of story. All you can do is observe magnetism and describe how it works.But what is relevant to this video is that although nobody can saywhymagnets work, every physicist can say with certaintyhowmagnetism (or electromagnetism) works. Nobody has ever done an experiment that opens a crack in the laws of physics as they relate to electricity and magnetism.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2011, 01:01:03 am
content: If you want an idea of how long it takes to debunk this stuff:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SteornAn independent "jury" headed by the emeritus professor of electrical engineering at the University of Alberta took over two years to conclude that it didn't do diddlysquat.Dave.

author: Nermash
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2011, 06:43:59 am
content: There is an old saying in my country, going something like this:" As long as there are sheeps, there will also be wool to shear"This should be Steorn official moto:)))

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2011, 08:07:04 am
content: Quote from: Psi on September 19, 2011, 12:42:12 amIt becomes quickly clear that the majority fall into category 1. Category 2 people are quickly disabused of their misconceptions and either stop selling or become category 1 people. Even if they are unsure of why their device doesn't work these scammers steadfastly refuse to do proper measurements of power in and power out, and make up nonsense claims like 'measuring energy accurately is very difficult'. It is true that you have to be careful, but this claim is absurd on the face: electric utilities have been metering electric power for over a century, and accurate thermal power measurements were well established long before that. Of course, that is ignoring the more obvious scams where they just have a hidden battery.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2011, 08:19:54 am
content: Till you get caught!

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2011, 10:26:06 am
content: Quote from: IanB on September 19, 2011, 12:57:42 amAh yes, the "Richard Feynman sitting in a chair" series, the whole thing is pretty goodYour video:My favorite:The most revealing things are ridiculous bullshit words that make no sense but try to sound sciency, and the fact the whole thing is usually overcomplicated to allow either some non obvious error (for category 1) or a path for a wire providing power that isn't accounted for (for category 2).Also, ignoring the investor scam, there are people selling this, how are they not getting sued? Or even banned from selling the product. Like with the power balance bullshit:Quote from:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Balance#Legal_issues

author: sgix
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 19, 2011, 09:51:39 pm
content: Quoteremindes me of the paper generator athttp://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/which generates a technical paper with lots of big words, but no sense

author: Frangible
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2011, 05:10:27 am
content: The three laws of thermodynamics in layman's terms:1. You can't win.2. You can't even break even.3. You cant get out of the game.Simple!

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2011, 07:36:30 pm
content: Quote from: ndictu on September 19, 2011, 10:26:06 am

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 10:30:21 pm
content: Quote from: sgix on September 19, 2011, 09:51:39 pmBrilliant. I am looking forward to use it on April's fools day, if I get some assignment due that day.

author: Tony R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2011, 03:18:43 pm
content: This reminds me, as a student we were doing some battery discharge tests for our project. but after about 20 minutes the voltage on the battery rose by 20mV! we had a laugh and realized our error that we used way to large of a discharge resistance and decided to go with a lower one which solved the problem.We later where asked to give a presentation on our project to members of industry. We threw this in as a "problem" we encountered and made a joke that we have discovered free energy, and that a patent may be pending. Turns out there was a patent lawyer in the room. The lawyer makes the remark that he does not take clients that claim to defy the laws of physics and wont give them the time of day.With that said I think this lawyer has a good idea (and trust me, I wont often say that) lets not give these free energy nuts the time of day. Ill admit there are some things in physics that makes no logical sense what so ever and they actually happen, like the double slit experiment. But creating energy out of nothing is observed, I cannot make a cake without putting flour in a mixing bowl.So lets just not give them more reason to argue for free energy. Maybe someday it will be proven without a doubt, and at that time I invite everyone to contact me and say "you where wrong, haha" but until that day comes, I will stand by this statement: People who believe in free energy are lunatics, and lets not play their game.

author: siliconmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 10:20:28 pm
content: i know one thing.with all the videos on youtube about free energy.sales of neodynium magnets must have gone through the roof.they are far better at keeping tools on a rack..meh

author: Frenchie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 03:12:43 am
content: Quote from: Frangible on September 21, 2011, 05:10:27 amYou missed one:0. You must play the game.

author: Mint.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 09:16:53 am
content: Quote from: firewalker on November 01, 2011, 07:23:01 pm

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2012, 10:37:14 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 18, 2011, 11:52:09 pmWhen I tried the link You gave Dave I got the message "This Video is private" They obviously have decided to lock the unbelievers out. But like you say the whole thing is bovine excreta and does not really deserve the time of day.