Where is the Keysight Megazoom V ASIC? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 07:27:12 am
content: It's been almost 11 years to the day that Agilent/Keysight released the Megazoom IV ASIC. Way past the, IIRC, 6 years or so between previous generations.What's up?I know the 2000/3000/4000 series scopes are still selling and they are milking that Megazoon IV ASIC, but geeze, 11 years now?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 07:31:47 am
content: Probably have a few hundred full wafers still in storage, fully tested but not packed, and an equal number of assembled packages of them as well. So will be using them, and making the product, till they are near the end of that stock, and only then start to look at making a new version.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 07:38:46 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on February 11, 2022, 07:31:47 amIt takes years to develop a new ASIC like this and get it into a product, they would have started a long time ago. I'm sure it's already done.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 07:39:33 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 11, 2022, 07:27:12 amGo talk to Mark at IPD to see what he knows.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 09:04:56 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 11, 2022, 07:38:46 amI'm not so sure that a new ASIC brings much advantage to the table in this day & age. They could put more memory inside the ASIC (or use external memory) but that solves only 1 problem and still is outdated on the day of release. Nowadays DSOs are moving quickly into becoming more versatile signal analysis machines. It makes more sense to add a lot of computational power and do operations in software. IMHO a better choice for Keysight would be to leave the ASIC path and go for a platform with lots of computational power. I think a combo of a fast CPU with a decent GPU would offer great flexibility while still offering snappy operations.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 09:57:05 am
content: If you keep analog front end from 3000T/4000,get ridof aMegazoom IV, put a single 16GS/s (a variant of?) converter from EXR (which would still get you 4GS/s in full channel mode, instead of 2,5GS/s now) and pipe that into Zynq, you would get immensely more powerful platform than now, and 10bit too.... You would literally solve all of the shortcomings of current platform. Pretty much what Rigol is doing, but with better performing components.As for ASICS, they do bring a lot to the table, but not in this range anymore. For that range all can be done in FPGA now.11 years ago only way to make 3000/4000 series was ASIC: not anymoreKeysight made a whole bunch of new ASICS in the last few years.New EXR and MXR have new ASICS (I guess Keysight spend their money in higher end offering) that enable real-time spectrum mode, DDC, frequency domain triggering etc etc... All of that at very high trigger rate.Also, people keep forgetting Infiniivision scopes are Keysight entry level scopes... Bottom of the offering range.They won't make new version that has capability of EXR. If they make new version, it will be competitive with offering from other manufacturers in that range. So pretty much not much changes in way it is used and works for user, maybe bigger screen, better resolution and more memory. And that's it.. No more capability. They already newly refreshed mid range.They won't create internal competition.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 11:31:18 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 11, 2022, 09:57:05 amNo. In the end the Zync platform is just a crutch to be able to do some functions in software but in the end the performance can't get nowhere near oscilloscopes that do functions like protocol decoding in hardware. Scopes from Rigol and Siglent can't get even close to the performance and comfort you get from Keysight or R&S where it comes to protocol decoding. In the end you pay for the engineering to do the hardware accellerated decoding. If you want to get close with a (mostly) software solution with low NRE then the only way out is a GPU based platform.

author: MadTux
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 11:54:25 am
content: Why should they??As long as that ancient Megazoom still keeps selling for insane prices, they keep selling it.Megazoom (HP 54645/54622D) with 4MB memory was great in the 1990s, back then it was nice to play Quake1 @ 30FPS.Nowadays, you can play Quake on your washing machine, yet HPAK keeps selling that obsolete stuff and treat their customers like trash.Basically they only sell their name, anyone buying features per price, buys Rigol 5k for less than $1000 or similar.8GS/s, 100MS/channel.... everything about a magnitude better than a similar priced Keysight pile of trash....

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 09:08:58 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 11, 2022, 11:31:18 amZynq is just a sea of logic gates together with a fast cpus on a same chip with a fast interconnect.You can load same IP into it that they hardcoded into Megazoom IV.And I don't know what you think hardware decode means in Keysight. Their most advanced Infinium scopes are same software based decoding, like Lecroy, Siglent and the rest. Software based decoding has it's advantages, like for instance where you can enable decoding after you captured signal, and tune parameters until you get it right. For instance, you captured something that seems like UART data but runs nonstandard speed. On Keysight with hardware decoding you need to be able to capture and capture experimenting until it works and then make a capture you want to analyse. If you want to try different settings, you need to change the settings and recapture. If you have system that keeps sending thousands of messages in a second in a loop it's easy. If system is more sparse with messages and you happened to capture something that you think might be interesting but decoding wasn't on, you're out of luck.Also what do you think hardware accelerated decoding is? With Keysight it is actually done in a way that analog input channel has an analog comparator in parallel with ADC input (not really but functionally equivalent to that). They seem to sample and feed that bit stream in parallel with analog sampled data. Decoding happens in software too (visible in segmented mode, when decoding happens when analysing segments).Software only decoding works on analog captured buffer data, and it has to firstly run a piece of code to extract edges and digitize stream and only then start to decode. On Keysight, you already have digitized stream in memory (digitized in "hardware" by virtue of analog comparator) so decoding by software is extremely fast.On a scope with digital triggering, and no analog comparator, you can tap off the digital trigger engine and use that to get same type of digitized bitstream as Keysight does in analog domain. At the same hardware realtime speeds. And in Zynq you can pipe that to decoders real fast. Not to mention that in Zynq, you can actually use FPGA fabric to have hardware assisted decoding FSMs transparently..All of those will have triggering fully implemented in hardware anyways...GPU based platform is actually useful (you're are correct there) but for a completely software based scope, higher end one. That would have advanced analysis options, and not very fast acquisition retrigger rates...But even there Keysight went with heavy hardware acceleration and ASICs in newest generation, because they wanted to make fast mixed domain instruments. And that requires heavy hardware acceleration.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 09:25:48 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 11, 2022, 09:57:05 amThen why hasn't anyone else done so with their Zynq based designs?The Keysight isstillthe market leader in wavefor update speed and processing after 11 years.QuoteYeah, but you won't see those asic in a 3 or 4 digit priced scope I'm sure.QuoteMaybe, but we still haven't seen a new design after 11 years, ASIC or not.The real question of this thread is really when will Keysight come out with a new design base/mid level scope, ASIC or no ASIC.I'm absolutely sure they have been working on a new Megazoom V ASIC for a long time, perhaps from only a year or two after the IV was released. Whether or not we'll see another ASIC design, or if they ditch it and go with another solution is the question. My bet is on ASIC, or maybe ASIC's plural. But they probably won't integrate the sample memory this time, as that's the biggest thing that has bitten them on the arse.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 09:29:01 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 11, 2022, 09:57:05 amSomehow I didn't notice a better performance overall. Performance of Zinq based scopes fall flat beyond certain performance friendly settings and do not actually reach the performance of Megazoom to begin with. Megazoom based scopes perform well regardless. If Zinq is so perfect, why Rigol rolled out their own custom ASICs for their Ultravision II scopes (with Zinq also included)?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 09:55:09 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 11, 2022, 09:25:48 pmThe new rigol 70000/ultra-vision III also got 1,000,000wfms/s.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 10:19:38 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 11, 2022, 09:08:58 pmThe Megazoom ASIC does decoding in hardware. On a PC based scope you have enough processing power to do decoding in software so needing hardware accelleration is less likely. Being able to change the decoding parameters after an acquisition is handy but if it comes at the cost of reduced memory depth, speed and other limitations, the benefit becomes very small quickly.QuoteBut what you forget here is that FPGA development is very time consuming (= extremely expensive) and there are not many that master the skills to do FPGA development effectively so most of the lower end scope (B brand) manufacturers opt for a software solution at the cost of lower performance. It works but it is slow and needs all kinds of workarounds (like only decoding what is on screen or larger decimation steps) to get to an acceptable user experience. The only low-end DSO manufacturer I can think of that does decoding inside the FPGA is MicSig. Also keep in mind that the low cost Zyncs don't have that much gates to begin with so it is easy to run out of space. For example: GW Instek uses partial reconfiguration in their Zync based DSOs to load a different trigger engine to trigger on protocols. I guess they ran out of space to simply include all trigger engines and had to resort to a complicated solution.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 10:31:39 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 11, 2022, 09:25:48 pmKeysight made a whole bunch of new ASICS in the last few years.New EXR and MXR have new ASICS (I guess Keysight spend their money in higher end offering) that enable real-time spectrum mode, DDC, frequency domain triggering etc etc... All of that at very high trigger rate.Yeah, but you won't see those asic in a 3 or 4 digit priced scope I'm sure.QuoteMaybe, but we still haven't seen a new design after 11 years, ASIC or not.Rigol scopes have very fast WFM's per second. They are second fastest to Keysight. And it has nothing to do with what most people are referring to as "Keysights are fast". Keysightsare not fast to usebecause of Megazoom. Megazoom only helps with WFMs/s.Rigols are almost as fast in WFMs/s but feel like molasses in comparison. Because user interaction is not done well.The fact that (for instance) 3000T is so responsive is fact that Keysight did best job optimizing U/I. User input is priority 0 thread and everything stops as soon as you touch something. Also they did best job of optimizing background running threads and it's communication with hardware. Actual waveform rendering happens in hardware and is physically injected into screen area. That made it possible to have small CPU (that doesn't have graphics accelerator) and still be fast.To be honest, all of that is also possible by the fact that 12000 USD scope has a screen with resolution that LESS than my hand watch.. Ruminate on that.It is highly optimized user experience that is fast, not Megazoom. 1000X series has 1/5th of WFMs/s of 3000T and people still find it as fast. Because user experience was tuned for that.Processing leader it is NOT. It (3000T) samples fraction of data even the cheapest scope now have, it does all measurements, filters, math on decimated 64k buffer. FFT is 64k max. Here, too, it cleverly trades off capability for speed.BUT...It is not a analytic scope. All the tradeoffs Keysight decided to do were done well, and with full understanding of it's target market and audience. It is a masterpiece of engineering: how to achieve most with as little as possible.It is actual delicate balance of how much user gets while giving as little as possible.Most users of these scopes are not bothered by low memory. It gets the job done.Most users of these scopes are not bothered by low screen resolution. It gets the job done.Most users of these scopes are not bothered by small screen resolution. It makes scope compact and easy to put on the desk. It gets the job done.etc etc.All while giving great user experience, instant response to user input. It is closest thing to CRT scope on market.In its current form it gets the job done. No need to mess with it. There is no need for new design.These scopes are Fluke 87 of scope industry.. Same rules apply.Only when it stops selling they will offer something else. It's just good business.Do I think they have at least rough draft on something new for that moment? Of course they do.They are Keysight. And also being Keysight, you bet they can whip up new product in very little time.In meantime they focus their effort on midrange/high end. Where their new corporate policy puts their priority.They don't seem to care for entry level that much anymore.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 10:41:35 pm
content: Gehn stole the Megazoom V because it had the number 5 in it, and now you need to travel to 5 tropical islands to get it back.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 10:44:00 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 11, 2022, 10:19:38 pmRead my lips: on 3000T decoding is hardware/software hybrid. Like I explained. It is visible in segmented mode.Cost of reduced memory depth in software decoding scope is such that they will all still have an order of magnitude more memory than Megazoom does.FPGA development is expensive? So you're saying that Keysight ASIC development is cheaper and easier than FPGA development? News flash, their scopes are chock full of FPGA already, and EXR/MXR are running lots of internal glue and architecture in them. If anybody would be able to make fantastic scope on Zynq that would be them.They went with ASICS for their higher end scopes because in a long run it will be cheaper for them to run the heavy lifting in ASICs (and because they have capability to design and make them) and for ADC and such where it provides competitive advantage i.e there is no off the shelf component and they are pushin state of the art.FPGA that you would use in 3000T replacement would be a bit bigger than one used in Micsig or GW Instek 2000E series.

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 10:56:54 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 11, 2022, 10:31:39 pmIt is exactly this. Having a DSOX4000a on my bench, I looked at the newer R&S / Rigols / Siglents in the past years. Their UI looks very impressive at first, but if you know a Keysight DSOX3000/4000 from practice, you quickly realize that you can still do your job faster and better with it, faster than with the said 10 years newer scopes with a often sluggish behaviour.Sure more memory would be nice, but do I really need it? I have segmented memory and otherwise I just trigger on what I want to see. Period. I am convinced, in most cases where people are wanting more memory, they just do not know how to trigger. Very rarely do I need tons of data before and after. Do I need fast boot up time or 12 bit resolution and/or 0.5uV vertically? Yes, it would have been helpful sometimes, but I rather choose the reliability and speed of the Keysight as this is what I need in 99,99% of all time.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 11:03:44 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 11, 2022, 09:29:01 pmLike I said, "Keysight is fast!" is a U/I responsiveness thing. It is something that "button twiddlers" (people that turn buttons real fast to benchmark how fast scope will respond) notice immediately but rest of people not so much.It is a credit to how well software in Keysight scopes is written.People seem to praise 1000X series as being as fast to use as 3000T, glory to the Megazoom IV.Despite 1000X having less than 1/5th of WFM/s per second.Clever software writing AND same application processor as in 3000T makes user experience the same. Not Megazoom IVAnd, as I know you know damn well, ASIC is short for Application Specific Integrated Circuit. It doesn't even have to have complicated function. You can make 5 transistor IC in SiGe process for your scope front end and it is ASIC.Rigol has 3 ASIC chips. One is an amplifier for an active probe. Other one is amplifier/attenuator/integrated front end for a scope. Both analog chips. And third one is their ADC. That gets piped into Zynqs where they run all the scope logic...They could as easily just buy off the shelf ADC and use that with minor adjustments.And they did it this way because it doesn't lock them in into architecture that will get outdated in few years. And with expectation that FPGA market will keep expanding and FPGA chips they use will get even cheaper with time.As a side note, current chip market must worry all those that did that bet. And those (like Keysight) that run their own ASICs must be smiling short term. Until they need to run another batch and then they are also in trouble.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 11:07:11 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 11, 2022, 10:44:00 pmAnd hence the higher price Keysight charges for their oscilloscopes. They do more engineering work so they have to charge a higher price for their product. B-brands are cutting corners to push engineering and hardware costs down.And sure, at a high volume an ASIC is cheaper compared to bringing money to Xilinx. I never claimed that designing an ASIC is cheaper BTW. Putting functionality into an ASIC or FPGA is more expensive to develop compared to software.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 11:51:25 pm
content: Quote from: Pinkus on February 11, 2022, 10:56:54 pmI have on my desk both 3104T with full options and new 6000A Siglent. And Siglent is not slow. U/I is not as fast as Keysight at moments but slow it is not, certainly not sluggish. Certainly not to the point that it would slow me down.These comparisons start to sound like benchmarking the PCs: even if you can reliably say some PC is 28% faster running some benchmark, what does it mean to me in real life when editing a document in Word?But as a sidenote: I did try R&S 2000/3000/4000 and Rigols 5000/7000 and I agree with you. Actually, early versions of R&S 3000 series felt slower than DS7000 from Rigol in general. Both felt slow compared to 3000T. I don't know if they made it faster in newer versions of firmware.But I could have worked with R&S 3000 (it is noticeable, but not that slow that it slows you down, mind you) but it lacked features that 3000T had.More memory is very important. My biggest complaint on 3000T is how fast sampling rate drops as soon as I start going to slower timebases.Also there are two school of though (let's say you're looking at rise time of some signal):- You put shortest possible time on screen, and let scope gather statistics over thousands of triggers. Here Keysight fast retrigger comes in..- Or (if your scope has enough memory) you capture very long sequence at full sample rate. And you run analysis on ALL the edges inside that buffer. Thousands of those. You get low triggers/seconds, but at every trigger you get statistics worth of 10000 of triggers on other scope.. In the end you get same numbers per second. But there is one benefit: inside that capture, there was NO blind time. So if you have one glitchy edge happening every 10 ms, in one 50 ms long capture you will have POI of 100%. And not only that, you will be able to see and measure if it is random or periodic.Therefore : long memory -> useful.As for reliabilty, that is superb on all mentioned scopes.As for 12 bit, that is something that is very, very noticeable. If you do analog, you wouldn't want to go back to 8 bit. Trust me. It is addictive as hell.. That thin line that looks like it came fro best analog Tek that let's you see things you didn't see before...I do agree wholeheartedly that triggering is the key to using the scope. But sometimes it is hard to find what to trigger on. It is easy when you're going for something specific. But, when examining signal for unknowns you might spend some time until you find something of interest and then you can formulate trigger conditions for that.I will tell you, though, one simple, stupid little thing ( if you look at it superficially, that is ) that changed my life: little hysticons on measurements. That thing is just brilliant. It allows me to not only see signal on the screen, but to better understand what is going on, with one look on the screen.I would not want to buy another scope that doesn't have that feature, ever... That is something that I miss very, very much on my 3000T.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 12:11:09 am
content: Only Keysight knows if the sales volume is still good enough with all of the current scopes using Megazoom IV . Incentive is likely low to release Megazoom V if sales are still solid.If they did develop Megazoom V right after the IV they would probably have to redesign it again as the landscape has changed so much with memory, screen resolution, sample bits, etc.I still find my 3000t a joy to use - but I'd wouldn't say no to more res, bits, memory etc. I will continue to say no to a Siglent, Rigol etc scope though.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 12:29:07 am
content: Siglent are on it´s way to convince "people like you"...In private, I enjoy working with my siglent scope, there is nothing on the B-Brands side which will come close to it.But when I´m at work, working with our lecroy waverunner 9054 or hdo6034 scopes...Makes you bow down, it´s still another world.And costs min. 10 times more, not to forgotten.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 12:37:31 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on February 12, 2022, 12:29:07 amWell, the Siglent equipment I bought or recommended in the past decade turned out to be a waste of money sooner or later so no thanks. I'm cured.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 12:49:11 am
content: Quote from: TheSteve on February 12, 2022, 12:11:09 am3000T IS a joy to use. And is one of my favorites. And since I owned it for few years now, I know it inside out and am very productive with it. Until I encounter some of the limitations.But, honestly, SDS6000A is shaping up to be something very, very, good.It is a LeCroy type of concept though, so people that don't like LeCroy will always complain.But, nowadays, i started to switch on the SDS6000 first. It used to be 3000T.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 12:55:40 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 12, 2022, 12:37:31 amYes we know.Also you think Keysight scopes are unusable because of your experience with long discontinued 7000 series...You seem to hold the grudge for a long time.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 01:15:15 am
content: Quote from: TheSteve on February 12, 2022, 12:11:09 amYes, I would not rule out that the worked on and/or finished a Megazoom V and then scrapped it.The other thing that "Megazoom V" would bring them is branding. People know the Megazoom branding, it's one of the if not the most well known branding in the scope business for the last several decades.Wheter it's ASIC or FGPA or some some hydrib or whatever doesn't matter, they would be crazy not to brand any new technology scope as "Megazoom V Technology".

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 01:19:33 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 11, 2022, 11:51:25 pmI can see bit depth being the new must have paradigm shift in the low-ish end scope space.First it deep memory, you didn't want to buy a scope without it.Next it was fast update rate, you didn't want to buy a scope without it.Next it was 4 channels, you didn't want to buy a scope without it.Cue bit depth...

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 01:28:27 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 12, 2022, 01:15:15 amI absolutely agree!! That is sort of my point. They will call it Megazoom, whatever the implementation. It is the architecture that counts..

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 01:31:38 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 12, 2022, 12:55:40 amWrong on both accounts (and you know it)!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 03:24:15 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 12, 2022, 01:28:27 amI don't think they'll scrap an ASIC, I expect one somewhere though, I just can't see it, too many advantages for a company with the resources and R&D budget of Keysight. Especially in a lower end product where volume matters. And they will be in it for a 10 year timeframe.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 07:19:57 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 11, 2022, 11:03:44 pmI did not write about UI responsiveness at all.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 10:56:10 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 12, 2022, 07:19:57 amOK, fair enough, please explain what do you mean by : "Performance of Zinq based scopes fall flat beyond certain performance friendly settings and do not actually reach the performance of Megazoom to begin with."Waveforms per second? Is that what you think by it?

author: robert.rozee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 11:16:37 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 12, 2022, 01:15:15 ami'm surprised no one has mentionedriskyet. releasing a product containing a new ASIC carries a high risk, as any design defect within that ASIC can most likely not be fixed in the field. for this reason, there is an incentive to make use of an (old) ASIC that has been well tested in previous products. if you must use a new ASIC design, you at least have to put it through an extreme level of testing to ensure it is 'defect free'. this testing is... expensive.an FPGA firmware defect, however, is much less severe from the commercial perspective. indeed, if you can identify any defect early on, and quickly produce a customer-installed firmware update, then suddenly your customers will lauder you as hero for backing up your product with ongoing support and development. without necessarily extending the service life of a product, a manufacture may garner customer 'brownie points' by (1) being able to release the product earlier, then (2) providing one or more updates (just bug fixes) that the customer perceives as 'free extras'.cheers,rob :-)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 12:53:37 pm
content: Risk in an ASIC can be mitigated by creating programmable (statemachine) blocks. I think this is already the case for the existing Megazoom ASICs.In the end the choice for an ASIC depends on cost reduction per product, engineering costs and the ability to add extra features. AFAIK the ADC is also included in the Megazoom ASICs so there is a significant cost saving for having 1 chip where the competition needs to buy 3 seperate chips (ADC, FPGA and memory) and 'glue' these together.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 01:44:32 pm
content: Occam's razor says "Cash cow".Most likely they're still selling as many 'scopes as they can make so they haven't bothered yet.They probably have a new ASIC in the pipeline ready to go if a serious competitor ever comes along.There may also be a bit of Fluke factor where managers/purchasers want the same old 'scope they've known for years. They don't want a radical new design or a mixture of old/new devices in the building.Quote from: nctnico on February 12, 2022, 12:53:37 pmThey've had plenty of time to test it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 01:50:25 pm
content: I still can't shake the feeling that Keysight has hit a dead-end with their ASIC architecture. The DSO landscape has changed to much in the past decade alone. Remember when Keysight introduced frequency analysis on their DSO? Siglent copied it within weeks and 2 years later it is standard on about every DSO model you could buy.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 01:57:23 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 12, 2022, 10:56:10 amIncluding that. Once you set something similar to 4 Mpts memory of Megazoom IV, or simply set a very fast timebase (hello GW Instek), capture rate will drop a lot compared to the best case specs.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 02:03:19 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 12, 2022, 01:57:23 pmThat is only logical; the memory needs to be filled which takes sample_interval * memory_depth of time.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 02:07:44 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 12, 2022, 02:03:19 pmObviously, however most of the time is wasted without capturing anything. And Megazoom IV has no such issue.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 02:30:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 12, 2022, 12:53:37 pmThe likelihood of Keysight being able to integrate an FPGA and ADC of calibre for a quality DSO today is questionable. Back in 2000 when we integrated the first RF/MW System on Chip which had an FPGA, Memory, 3 Processors and a full RF/MW Transceiver the FPGA was the most difficult IP to acquire. We successfully did such with a startup in Scotland for the FPGA, but soon after Xilinx acquired the startup and suspended any support. They did so because this startup had some innovative IP and was viewed as a potential threat, so Xilinx acquired them before Altera and squashed the IP. Back then it seemed the high end FPGA market was controlled by Altera and Xilinx, and neither was interested in supporting an FPGA in a custom chip, even for some serious $, we tried unsuccessfully to do so!! Don't think this has changed today since the FPGA IP, which includes the SW, is considered some of the most valuable IP in the semiconductor world, and highly protected.Which begs the question would Keysight have enough clout, $, influence, market, and so on to pull this off and integrate a high end FPGA, with world class ADCs, and memory and still be profitable, don't think so!!The advanced research level ADCs Keysight was working with a few years ago, like Stringray (see images), had no such FPGA capability on chip.Best,

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 02:40:39 pm
content: Protocol decoding aside: How much of a limitation is 4Mb of memory if there's good segmentation and good ability to trigger on glitches?For large amounts of protocol decoding there's probably better devices anyway. The main advantage of protocol decoding in a 'scope is to match analog events to data transmissions. I'm sure Keysight would prefer to sell you a logic analyzer rather than complicate their oscilloscopes.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 03:45:09 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on February 12, 2022, 02:30:57 pmBy programmable I don't mean FPGA but having statemachines that can be programmed using microcode. More in terms of having function specific softcores inside the ASIC. It makes more sense to have a programmable statemachine to implement complex triggering for example compared to creating it in logic anyway. The same goes for math and protocol decoding; a programmable statemachine is likely more effective in terms of amount of logic (chip area) and ASIC validation / testing time. Although care must be taken not to postpone the design & implementations of the algorithms that need to run on the statemachines to the software development phase. Validation of the algorithms must be part of the ASIC development process in order to prevent nasty surprises.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 03:49:25 pm
content: Another thing to consider about integrating an FPGA, memory and advanced ADCs on a single chip is the looming possibility of a new completely different ADC architecture on the near horizon, which would highly devalue the single chip investment in an FPGA, ADC & Memory.Something along the lines of the Non-Uniform Sampling type where the "waveform information" is captured in both time and amplitude, and no conventional analog anti-aliasing filter required since the anti-aliasing is "performed" post ADC capture.SOTA Chip Integration values high quantity usage, where test equipment doesn't qualify. In today's SOTA processes, design cost are astronomical and only justifiable in massive $ markets. Back when LeCroy did their $1M scope they utilized IBMs SiGe BiCMOS 7HP and 8HP process which supported only 180 and 130nm CMOS respectively, and the chip design costs were probably in the few 10s of million $ per chip. Since the CMOS is what the Processors, FPGA & Memory are built in, those features sizes in 7HP and 8HP limit what one can do with CMOS on the these BiCMOS processes, and thus prevented any worthwhile digital implementations on these chips (BTW this is the achilles heal of SiGe BiCMOS!!). Todays design costs in SOTA CMOS are probably 10 to 30 times the investment LeCroy made way back with 7 & 8HP.So smart test equipment $ likely will focus on just the advanced ADC in whatever process makes sense, and use whatever FPGA & memory required, or roll a custom digital only ASIC which is not an FPGA in whatever processes makes sense. Also don't forget that cramming a bunch of stuff on a single chip increases the chip size, and memory takes up a bunch of space, and chip cost grows exponentially with size.A complex high performing scope architecture, with FPGA, ADCs, and lots of memory will require an advanced small feature CMOS process to cram everything on a producible size chip, and the design cost and process cost will be unjustifiable considered the limited market.Best,

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 04:00:32 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 12, 2022, 02:40:39 pmLimitation is that there is NO 4 Mpts of memory. It is 4 divided by 2 for ping-pong buffers, then by 2 for shared channels, and then again by 2 if you use MSO digital channels. So it goes from 2Mpts for single channel best case scenario to 512kpt worst case...With segments, even worse.Example:MSOX3104T: One channel active. CAN bus decoding. 50us/div, to fit one packet across the screen. Segments set for 64 segments (packets in this case). Sample rate :12,5 MSa/s.SDS6104H12: One channel active. CAN bus decoding. 50us/div, to fit one packet across the screen. Segments set for 64 segments (packets in this case). Sample rate :5 GSa/s.If you're only decoding, it doesn't matter. If you're looking to see high frequency interference in signal, that confuses devices on a bus, it matters a lot.It is not even LARGE amounts of decoding or large time bases... 100us per division already makes it sample at 625MSa/s .At 200us/div you are already at 250MSa/s that puts you in Rigol 1000Z and Micsig territory. At 1ms/div you are at 50MSa/s. And that is SINGLE channel per ADC. You enable channel pair, and it all halves. And all the time you are having full 1GHz front end bandwidth piped into it.As for good triggering on the glitches, even SDS2000X+ has full set of triggers and zone triggers equivalent to 3000T. Rigol 5000/7000 and up also have it all.Siglents have better analog noise performance, Rigols have 4 math channels, and 4 decode channels.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 05:40:53 pm
content: Afaik, what ever this matters or not but is it so that MZ IV do not have digital trigger engine. Do it have conventional old side pathway analog trigger system.And I did not say or made guestion is it good or bad. Only what is fact.

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2022, 08:55:02 am
content: I think Dave needs to have a real thorough search in the dumpster room, the Megazoom V could have slipped down behind a bin or something...

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2022, 11:29:01 am
content: Quote from: jc101 on February 13, 2022, 08:55:02 amThat does feel like where this is headed....

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2022, 11:44:02 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 12, 2022, 01:44:32 pmIIRC the previous average time between releases of Megazoom ASIC was 6 years. So based on that they should have been developing the Megazoom 5 from at least say 8 years ago (3 years after release max). They probably didn't know the IV would last them 11 years, it would be impossible to predict that.No doubt the IV has been a cash cow for them, but at what point did they realise that, and that they could just cruise with it for now doing on 11 years?Was a follow up product developed and they didn't release it because they ran the numbers and decided to just milk the cash cow instead?I can't believe there is no follow-up product architecture ready or almost ready for release. And a substanital new product release can't just milk the Megazoom IV cash cow again (they have already done that several times), so it needs a new architechure, and as mentioned, it has to be the Megazoom V for marketing reasons.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2022, 11:48:51 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on February 12, 2022, 03:49:25 pmYou can now get 64GS/s ADC's on FPGA'shttps://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-technology/programmable/analog-rf-fpga.html

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2022, 11:58:12 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 13, 2022, 11:48:51 amIIRC You can buy a couple of cars for the price of one of those FPGAs. An ASIC becomes cost effective quickly especially if you have developed ASICs before.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2022, 11:59:33 am
content: Quote from: Someone on February 13, 2022, 11:29:01 amI can assure you I have not heard a thing.And Keysight don't seem to hate me like Tek do

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2022, 03:29:14 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 13, 2022, 11:59:33 am

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2022, 07:17:59 am
content: News on the a new Keysight scope they teased on their contest site has leaked onto their own website and dealers:https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/3122-1256/product-fact-sheets/InfiniiVision-3000G-X-Series-Oscilloscopes.pdfhttps://au.sports.yahoo.com/keysight-infiniivision-3000g-oscilloscope-now-130000442.htmlhttps://docs.rs-online.com/1e26/A700000008467596.pdfSadly it's not the Megzoom 5 ASICIt's just replaced the 3000T model with the 3000Ghttps://www.keysight.com/au/en/products/oscilloscopes/infiniivision-2-4-channel-digital-oscilloscopes.html

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2022, 08:21:00 am
content: Runs the 3000t firmware, so pretty much a color change.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2022, 08:36:06 am
content: G = Grey

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2022, 08:53:34 am
content: Quote from: tv84 on May 10, 2022, 08:36:06 amThe 3000TG Tall Grey

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2022, 10:24:45 am
content: How do we register?

author: Hydron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2022, 10:44:39 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 10, 2022, 10:24:45 amFirst step: register as a business and get a VAT/GST number...(I'm in theory kidding, but this is likely an actual requirement)

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2022, 10:53:10 am
content: Quote from: Hydron on May 10, 2022, 10:44:39 am... and reside in one of the "friendly" countries where the promotion is valid. Would love to hear about the reasons for such selection.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2022, 11:23:21 am
content: Quote from: tv84 on May 10, 2022, 10:53:10 amI did actually get answer from Keysight on this question for my country. And in case of my country it isn't Keysight's fault, but my country that has retarded regulations.. In short, if you make a draw and send people stuff, that is basically considered lottery and they have to be registered as a company that does gambling and lottery and in Croatia.. Fun fact, if a citizen of Croatia applies online (or when traveling you buy lotto ticket) to online draw and win that is illegal. Not in a way you didn't pay taxes illegal. No, even if you want to pay taxes it is illegal...Of course dodgy gambling sites don't care. But Keysight cannot ignore legislation....I don't know about other countries though...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2022, 02:09:22 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on May 10, 2022, 10:53:10 amI heard it's forbidden here in Spain because it falls under gambling laws even though I'm not actually betting anything.I have contacts in the UK so I no problem giving them a UK address. Probably have to fly over and pick it up in person after Brexit but I'll figure out a way for a $10,000 'scope.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 06:10:27 am
content: Still waiting...

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 08:20:29 am
content: I would not bet on a new ASIC. The advantage of an ASIC over an FPGA is possibly lower power consumption at the same performance. However ASICs can not use the high end processes as FPGAs due to the very high mask costs. So the advantage is getting smaller and smaller - if there is any left at all.If at all a ASIC would be thing for high volume, low cost solutions, or if there is no access to high end FPGAs but only cheap not so high end chips. This would not be KS, but more Rigol / Sigilent.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 08:34:33 am
content: I wonder whether, at at corporate level, the folks at Keysight are alert to the competition, which does seem to have improved significantly in the last few years.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/are-premium-scope-brands-still-justified/msg5454938/#msg5454938

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 09:28:08 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 30, 2024, 06:10:27 amIt seems like the exiting days of Keysight are over.- Very few youtube videos- No more "Scope Month"- Daniel is hidingand so on ....Maybe they are concentrating more on the high end UXR scopes.I still love the Keysight scopes.For one project I needed to decode the SENT protocol for the first time and the 4000x and the 6000x do a perfect job on that end.So, Megazoom IV is still working well for my applications.

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 09:56:26 am
content: My biggest issue with Keysight is the move to renting the hardware features.For example, the E36731A Battery Emulator and Profiler is a PSU and electronic load you can drive perfectly from the front panel. However, to use the Battery Emulation side, you need to obtain a licence for BenchVue, as it can only be driven from the PC. The licence is rented annually. You can also now get a node-locked permanent licence for an additional 30% on top of the instrument price to use a feature screen printed onto the front panel of the device. You buy the hardware but can only use 2/3 of it until you pay them again for the remaining 1/3. They would have sold one if it weren't for the ridiculous cost of the licence to be able to actually use it.I love my Keysight 3000T. It responds instantaneously to input and can decode almost anything I need to decode.

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 11:26:18 am
content: a few days ago Daniel shared on twitter a very zoomed in picture of an instrument's footy thing,https://twitter.com/DanielBogdanoff/status/1793780675319103801my hypothesis is that it being all zoomed in might be a hint of Megazoom V

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 03:58:23 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on May 30, 2024, 08:20:29 amNowadays using a GPU for doing all the heavy lifting is a good choice for building a DSO. Performance, power consumption, production cost, software development cost and flexibility wise there is no match.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 04:53:38 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 30, 2024, 03:58:23 pmGPU is in a wrong place in a data graph to replace FPGA. Megazoom is ADC/trigger/sample memory part. GPU can handle screen rendering, phosphorus emulation, math and measurements acceleration etc. So it just makes application processor really fast, basically bringing processing power of PC scope into realm of embedded scopes.But ADC-FPGA in front of it stays.And even Keysights with Megazooms have FPGA too.. For accelerating and implementation of other stuff Megazoom cannot do.So you just put bigger modern FPGA and you don't need Megazoom anymore.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 05:40:47 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 30, 2024, 03:58:23 pmGPU is pretty much useless for what Megazoom ASIC does. The problem is not CPU or graphical processing power.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 06:11:10 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 30, 2024, 05:40:47 pmYou are forgetting that a GPU is mostly a processor which can do massive parallel calculations quickly because it has lots of processors with a highly optimised memory access channel. Look at languages like Cuda and OpenCL which are used to program massive parallel processors like GPUs. What a GPU can do very efficiently is taking a bunch of acquisitions and process these into a trace in parallel for example. A CPU can't get close to this speed, an FPGA would need a massive amount of logic and development time and neither will reach the energy efficieny of a GPU. And compared to an ASIC, the development cycle is shorter and flexibility is much better for a GPU based solution. The only problem is to get the data into the GPU memory. It is possible though that Keysight has developed an ASIC containing an off-the-shelve GPU solution + ADC interface as a building block for a DSO. Whatever Keysight comes up with has to be a leap forward somehow.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 07:32:54 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 30, 2024, 06:11:10 pmBingo!

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 07:59:57 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 30, 2024, 07:32:54 pmExactly!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 08:06:43 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 30, 2024, 07:32:54 pmBut as I implied: it doesn't make sense to have an FPGA just to interface between a SoC and the ADCs. Most SoCs don't even have a way of accessing the memory with a high enough bandwidth and off-the-shelve FPGAs with GPU + SoC don't offer very high performance per dollar. If your aim is to build a high performance DSO and you have the money to spin an ASIC, it makes a lot of sense to create an ASIC which has the ADC interface, trigger engine, memory interface, processor and GPU on one chip. All of these are off-the-shelve IP blocks you can buy (or Keysight already has) and turn into a chip with relatively low NRE costs. Say somewhere around US$10M to US$50M. You can built an entire line of DSOs based on such a chip where the differentiators are the ADC, analog frontend and supported software options.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 09:22:26 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on May 30, 2024, 08:20:29 amAnd lower cost, though only after the NRE is revovered.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 02:47:49 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on May 30, 2024, 08:20:29 amYes, it will be interesting to see which direction they take in their next scope architecture.On the one hand the Megazoom IV ASIC have kept them in the game for 13+ years now, and it's still one of the most if not the most responsive scope on the market.Basically the only downside was integrating the sample memory on the die, so as the years went on the memory size began to look very limited.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 02:49:33 am
content: Quote from: jc101 on May 30, 2024, 09:56:26 amYeah, that sucks arse.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 02:54:09 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 30, 2024, 06:11:10 pmAgreed, it has to be a leap forward.They have just been bested by R&S's ASIC in terms of update speed.It has to be a 12 bit solution as that is standard now.It has to have HDMI as standard, and hi-res to boot. One possible innovation here would be to actually scale the waveform data if you connect an external monitor. No other scope has that.I wouldn't bet against marketing adding AI in some wayAnnouncing the new Keysight 3000AI

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 02:56:26 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 30, 2024, 09:22:26 pmThe other are still doing ASIC. R&S did it. Rigol did it.It does allow absurdly powerful specs to flow down into lower market segments.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 05:06:39 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 31, 2024, 02:56:26 amRigol didn't, they have analog and ADC ASICs, but the waveform rendering is FPGA.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 05:58:53 am
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on May 30, 2024, 09:28:08 amNo I do not see anything wrong with Keysight. They just recently sent me an invite to their webinar "How to protect your satellite network". Very useful.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 08:21:40 am
content: Quote from: Someone on May 31, 2024, 05:06:39 amIt does a bit more than that:https://www.rigolna.com/UltraVisionII/But in any case they invested in ASIC's which allows them to reverage the price advantage into lower market segments.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 08:32:08 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 31, 2024, 02:54:09 amIf I'm interpreting posts on this forum correctly, I think the Rigol DHO800/DHO900 actually do scaling of the display data to some extend when connected to an external monitor. I highly suspect Rigol is using a GPU to render the screens on these scopes instead of an FPGA. When using a GPU you get scaling (almost) for free.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 08:55:43 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 31, 2024, 08:32:08 amI believe that just a standard android O/S scaling, it's not the actual waveform data in any way.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 09:33:51 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 31, 2024, 08:55:43 amIn that case I don't quite get what you are after. Do you mean you can get more information? Like more measurement positions? More horizontal divisions?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 10:31:19 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 31, 2024, 08:21:40 amTheir ASIC is only 2 chips: AFE (analog front end) and OSP chip. OSP chip has ADC and some DSP (probably equalization and linearization of data from massive parallel ADCs).Rest of UltraVision platform resides in normal FPGA and application processor.What they call SPU (sampling processing unit) is actually their IP running in commercial FPGA.WPU and CCU (Waveform plotting and central control unit) are running in application space on general purpose CPU with DSP extensions. GPU would be here and be able to contribute here.As for Keysight, they developed loads of new ASICs for UXR series that are also used on MXR series.It is just that it remains to be seen if they care about "low cost segment" anymore.Like I said before, with Megazoom range, they are in the same spot as Fluke with F87V. As long as people are buying it, why invest. They might even have (actually I'm sure they do) some architecture thought out, even if no physical prototypes.But market game is tit for tat game. You reveal your next step only when forced. In meantime you milk it...

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 06:49:52 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 31, 2024, 02:56:26 amIt also allows them to flowup-- we released the MXO4 more than a year before the MXO5 and MXO5C.Someone posted in another thread that we're adopting a Star Wars strategy - start with MXO4, MXO5, and MXO6, then go back and do MXO1, MXO2, and MXO3. Can neither confirm nor deny

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 01, 2024, 12:55:15 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on May 31, 2024, 10:31:19 amCorrect. The point is though that most of the big companies are doing ASIC's for scopes, so it obviosuly pays them to do so.I'd be stunned if new Keysight scopes don't have a new ASIC(s). Whether or not it's called the Megazoom V remains to be seen.QuoteDepends on how you define the "low cost segment".Most manufacturers seem the bring down ASIC/tech from higher end platforms down to lower end segments. Keysigh have done that before and I don't doubt they'll do it again.Might not be right off the bat, but it will happen.Quotemore than 13 years a long time to milk.IIRC the interval between previous Megazoom ASIC was 8 years. So well overdue.I doubt you'll have to wait much longer.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 01, 2024, 12:58:15 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 31, 2024, 09:33:51 amYes, more division and/or more data physically plotted because you have more pixels.Even if you keep the same number of divisions, if you have a higher resolution screen you have more pixels per division with which to plot data.

author: jusaca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 03, 2024, 10:54:23 am
content: I actually get the impression Keysight is not really interested in the mid range market anymore so they concentrate on the high-margin, high-end products. Rigol and Siglent delivering quite a decent performance in the mid-range for a comparatively low price is probably destroying the margin for the production prices Keysight can achieve.You can see this in a lot of areas. Established companies leaving the entry market to newcomers because margin just isn't interesting anymore, compared to devices being sold for a complete magnitude higher up the price range.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2024, 04:40:43 pm
content: Quote from: jusaca on June 03, 2024, 10:54:23 amIt is not like that. The mid-range market is very much alive for A-brands like Keysight, R&S or Tektronix. A couple of weeks ago I visited an electronics lab and factory in Taiwan. Not a single piece of test equipment from Rigol or Siglent anywhere. When I asked about it the tech told me they simply buy Tektronix or Keysight like everyone else. They can't be bothered going for the unknown.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2024, 04:57:01 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 03, 2024, 04:40:43 pmThat's a very particular situation... If I visited Iran's labs, I guess I would not be seeing israeli stuff... Unless it was on the bench for open heart reversing surgery...

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2024, 05:06:40 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 03, 2024, 04:40:43 pmWhen we were still working before retiring and starting up our consulting business, same was true, everything we had was HP/AG/KS, Tek, Fluke and R&S.However later after retiring and having to spend our "own $" rather than companies, we needed to do more investigation. Took the plunge an went with "other" brands like Siglent, then Instek, Korad, and Rigol. Not disappointed with any of those decisions, in fact some TE was a delightful surpriseOne thing to consider when working at a big company, many get massive discounts on major brands and thus pay nowhere near what the smaller folks pay. This of course is not public knowledge and assume each major company has negotiated special discounts with various TE OEMs.When your overall company general purpose TE budget was well over $10M/yr 40 years ago, you can imagine that "special arrangements" were in place with all the big TE OEMs!!Another consideration is the equipment "origin" may dictate whether it's allowed in "certain" labs or even within the company facilityBest,

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2024, 08:03:40 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on June 03, 2024, 05:06:40 pmYes, this is extremely important for some customers. There are some T&M companies who manufacture the same product in two different countries for this reason.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 03, 2024, 11:20:18 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on June 03, 2024, 05:06:40 pmAltium learned this the hard way when they moved their HQ from Australia to China. The US government threatened to drop all Altium licences, and Altium quickly moved their HQ to the US

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 03, 2024, 11:22:23 pm
content: Quote from: jusaca on June 03, 2024, 10:54:23 amI can assure you that they are.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2024, 09:34:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 03, 2024, 11:22:23 pmThey are.. But only if they can keep same profit margins as they enjoyed for years.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2024, 01:03:10 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on June 04, 2024, 09:34:11 amWe'll see...

author: msuthar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 05:34:00 pm
content: there are rumors that in few months Keysite will be launching a new scope worldwide, based on UXR platform design , scale down model and will be having 14 bit adc. Will have MSO option and will be in the low coast segment. anyone confirms?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 06:09:13 pm
content: Quote from: msuthar on June 20, 2024, 05:34:00 pm14 bit, UXR, low cost. MSO....LOL...UXR is a up to 110GHz scope platform that starts at 200000+ USD for 13GHz version..They might make a new version and sell it bit cheaper than what it is now...People here talk about replacement for Keysight Megazoom IV ASIC used in 1000/2000/3000 Infiniivision scopes..

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 08:43:39 pm
content: Didn't we already get "UXR but without the crazy microwave clock multiplying / sampling / interleaving"? Isn't that what MXR/EXR are?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 08:49:03 am
content: Quote from: msuthar on June 20, 2024, 05:34:00 pmDaniel posted this in May:

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 08:53:32 am
content: Quote from: jjoonathan on June 20, 2024, 08:43:39 pmI believe so.No way UXR tech is coming down to the 1000/2000/3000 series scopes.Any new scope will be 12bit, because 8 bit is essentially dead. 10 bit lasted for a bit (e.g. R&S 2000), but 12 bit is standard in $400 scopes now.Unlikley to leap to 14bit in low end stuff, as 12 bit is plenty, but you never know. I'd bet on 12bit.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 10:17:25 am
content: Quote from: msuthar on June 20, 2024, 05:34:00 pmSource for rumors? I've heard all kinds of rumors about our own products and almost all of them were wrong.That said, if the new scope is only a few months out, then KS is likely already sharing details with and doing demos for "special customers"

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 11:17:25 am
content: Electronica in Nov might be a launch opportunity- KS usually have a big presence there

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 02:40:58 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on June 21, 2024, 10:17:25 amSo, Dave might have one already?Definitely knows more than he shares here?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 03:19:17 pm
content: How's Dave a special customer? 99.999999% of EEVBlog members will not buy that new KS stuff outright because they simply cannot afford it.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 04:07:51 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on June 21, 2024, 03:19:17 pmBut potential customers may well watch an EEVBLOG review

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 06:01:20 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 21, 2024, 04:07:51 pmYes, Dave is very special to us at Rohde & SchwarzAnd there are a lot of people (like myself) who are here as hobbyists but who also work professionally with test and measurement instruments.Even before I started working in T&M, I still enjoyed watching and learning about equipment, instruments, etc. that I would never be able to buy with my own money (or even touch). I don't think it's that different from other hobbies (sports cars, boats, planes, etc.)

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 08:13:30 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 21, 2024, 04:07:51 pmI came across this forum because of the detailed reviews of the Rigol DS1000Z, which was almost 6 years ago.The cameras in the "studio" have improved over the years, the reviews haven't and now there is nothing that I would call a review.I unscrew it and then screw it back together again and play around with it a bit, which is too meagre, at least for me.And potential customers in these price ranges aren't interested in what something looks like on the inside, they're interested in the performance, what the device can do, that's shown, ideally in a comparison.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 11:43:26 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on June 21, 2024, 10:17:25 amYep. Tek did that, and involved the customers in the design requirements process, I think they talk about it in my impromptu talk with Andy Tedd about the 2 series:

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 11:44:53 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on June 21, 2024, 08:13:30 pmA 1 hour review isn't detailed enough for you?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 11:47:41 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on June 21, 2024, 03:19:17 pm42% of my audience are professionals in the industry.And students become professionals in a few years.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 12:02:24 am
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on June 21, 2024, 02:40:58 pmNot sure if I ever signed an NDA with Keysight, but in any case I'm under the professional honor system. But I can say what I don't have, and I don't have a new Keysight scope.But yes it is common for companies to send products to the engineering channels before release.Daniel has teased on X that some new product is coming. Keysight espresso machine?

author: Hydron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 07:41:29 am
content: With the fastest brewing speed on the market, but the it can only give you a 3mL espresso shot at one time?

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 07:44:19 am
content: It will give you hot water, but the coffee side needs a BenchVue licence.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 08:55:53 am
content: Quote from: jc101 on June 22, 2024, 07:44:19 amOr a rented license like on their new battery tester DC load.

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 09:04:36 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 22, 2024, 08:55:53 amExactly that.I'd happily buy one of those, even though they do now offer a permanent licence. I just draw the line at a 30% uplift in costs to use a function that is screen printed onto the front of the unit. That is physically impossible to use without the BenchVue licence.Oh, and you're supposed to have the permanent licence on maintenance for £100's a year.It seems Keysight is joining the Altium gravy train.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 10:49:26 am
content: Quote from: jc101 on June 22, 2024, 09:04:36 amIs that true ?

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 11:01:39 am
content: Yes, £285 a year for the support.£1900 for the battery emulation node locked licence, on top of the £4000 for the instrument itself.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 12:40:15 pm
content: Normal day of era of office computers.DEC had very high service hour rates, they wanted a monthly support fee.But outside of the US that wasn't all.Non US support fee included a software upgrade permission fee.That was probably invented when third party started offering support.Can't remember how that ended, but paying a permission fee only was not an option.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 11:28:03 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 22, 2024, 08:55:53 amThat sucks balls.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 12:50:23 pm
content: Quote from: jc101 on June 22, 2024, 11:01:39 amWOW!Keysight could have owned the market by offering a free license of basic software to communicate with any of their instruments.But this should be free of charge and without a stupid license manager.Then for those who want a more advanced software version, they can charge some $

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 01:03:53 pm
content: WOW, indeed. The instrument's PSU and DC Load sides can be controlled from the front panel. The battery simulation side just says Battery Simulation on the front panel, and it's all run via BenchVue. A whole 33% of the instrument is useless without the licence, but that is sold as an optional extra. Initially, it was an annual rental only, but after some pushback, they graced us with a node-locked permanent licence. Rather than the more obvious choice of just throwing it in for free with the box.It is impressive marketing. It sets the tone for how Keysight will approach customers in the future. I posted a comment on one of their YouTube demos and had a nice video call with some KeySight people. They were interested in the instrument from a technical side. When I raised the licence issue, silence and shrugs were all that was forthcoming.The unit would be an improvement over my Keithley 2281S-20-6, for me at least, because you can generate battery models. The Keithley can, but at a discharge of a fixed 1A. Keithley steers you to an SMU to generate the models.I'd buy one tomorrow if it weren't for the stupidity of the licence. I'd probably keep the BenchVue behemoth in its own VM. The licence manager is seriously invasive.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 06:13:27 pm
content: Generally service is never profitable for a producer of large product repository.Third party can always do a cherry picking.So for third party it's maximizing profits and for producer it's minimizing losses.We all know what happened to mini computers.Now servers are back and next year M$ is about to boost the "terminal" end of the market.But TEs have a different ecosystem.When was this no service for privates started?Recent stock peaked end of 2022, doubling after covid.Now trend is down when index is up.Maybe their crystal ball is telling that customer base is fading to the eternity.So for now all possible customers must be lured in and sucked dry.Very rosy future.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 09:37:19 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 21, 2024, 08:53:32 amDoesn't have Analog Discovery 14 bit real ADC?I did not saw much difference as we can see from 8 bit to 12 bit ...I think that 12 bit will be the norm for a long time.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2024, 10:12:31 pm
content: Quote from: skander36 on June 24, 2024, 09:37:19 pmYes it is real 14 bit. But it is slow sample rate 100MS/s, and since AD has only 2 input ranges, 14 bits is wasted most of the time to provide "simulation" of input ranges.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2024, 01:28:12 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on June 24, 2024, 10:12:31 pm125 MS/s on Discovery3. Which means 25% more vs. Discovery2Anyway let see at least one 12 bit scope from Keysight ...

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 07:17:29 am
content: Have you discovered that after getting the hardware, you need to rent a licence key to use it?

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 10:21:37 am
content: Oh come on Dave: you've got to drop a bigger hint than that

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 10:33:05 am
content: Not even a blurry picture?

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 10:34:46 am
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on July 03, 2024, 10:33:05 amor a toe from that leg?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 11:10:35 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on July 03, 2024, 10:21:37 amI haven't seen the infamous leg, just a stubby foot. Assuming sticky rubber bottom, but can't confirm.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 11:26:41 pm
content: 1)Whatever is to come, it is either so far out of reach that no normal mortal hobbyist can afford it, ergo uninteresting or at most nice to know.2)Or Keysight is paying tribute to the fact that the market for oscilloscopes under 10000€ has almost completely gone to the Chinese.This means that you either offer more for the same money, or the same for less money.If neither is the case, you end up with 1) and it doesn't matter what is supposed to come or not.

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 11:48:27 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 03, 2024, 11:26:41 pmalso, keysight will likely be the last big manufacturer to release a 12 bit oscilloscope in the under 10k$ price range(maybe tektronix and iwatsu are still over 10k$?), so if the megazoom v scope is not 12bit, or is not under 10k$, that product will have a real hard time fitting anywhere in the market, much less the hobbyist market, especially since they've made it clear they only want to sell to corporations and not individuals

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 12:00:23 am
content: Quote from: jc101 on July 03, 2024, 07:17:29 amThere is a free version:"PathWave BenchVue Basic Apps Are Now FreeStarting from PathWave BenchVue Platform version 2022.1, the BenchVue Included license activation process has been removed and BenchVue Basic Installers are made available. You can now download PathWave BenchVue Basic and control your instruments for free! PathWave BenchVue Basic apps provide you with unlimited access and features available one version before the latest version of BenchVue software."https://www.keysight.com/us/en/lib/resources/technical-specifications/pathwave-benchvue-basic.htmlI am running it in a Windows 10 LTSC 2021 virtual machine and using ethernet on the test equipment.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 01:00:35 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 03, 2024, 11:26:41 pmProbably the majority of people on here are professionals as well as hobbyists.Keysight has never been a maker of affordable hobbyist gear. At best they market some low end stuff to schools. You've always been able to get at least twice the bang-per-buck from Rigol or Siglent. Don't expect that to change.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 01:19:35 am
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on July 03, 2024, 10:21:37 amCan confirm no carry handle innovation.

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 08:29:37 pm
content: randomly came across this. no sign of how recent this is, so who knows if this was for a past scope or not!edit: the shilouette looks like an MXR, might be the MXR B scopes which appeared recently on their website

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 08:39:42 pm
content: Looks like the Infiniium MRX B series scope...https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/test-and-measurement-companies-release-new-oscilloscopes-dense-computing-designs/Not so long ago.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 07:53:03 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 08, 2024, 08:39:42 pmLooks like a serious hackers playground.Post-purchase upgradesAdd analog bandwidth, up to 6 GHz MXR2BWAdd analog channels, 4 to 8 MXRB8CHAdd memory, 400 Mpts/ch or 1.6 Gpts/ch flexible memory MXR2MEMAdd RTSA and DDC MXR2RTSAAdd RF Frequency Extension, 6 GHz MXR2FREAdd MSO, 16 channels MXR2MSOP10https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/3123-1557/data-sheets/Infiniium-MXR-B-Series.pdf

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 08:26:19 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 09, 2024, 07:53:03 amAre you implying you think that the new Keysight scope will be "hackable" the same way Siglent scopes are? I would be very, very surprised to see that happening.Also, the data sheet / brochure seems to indicate that some of those options require new hardware and a trip back to service.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 08:52:21 am
content: Quote from: Anthocyanina on July 08, 2024, 08:29:37 pmNope. That ain't it, Chief.They did a good job blacking it out.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 09:16:50 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on July 09, 2024, 08:26:19 amMaybe not out in the open but I'm sure there will be people able to hack anything. And the keygen isn't more complicated than the ones used for Rigol and Siglent. But they don't publish the results as the big brands won't be so kind.It is a public secret there are key generators out there for Lecroy for example.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 09:25:25 pm
content: QuoteThat is why the "solution" for the larger Siglent models is not made public.

author: MiroS
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 09:37:54 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 09, 2024, 08:52:21 amKeysight , R&S and similar brands might be not able to compete in perspective next a few years.I will be not suprised if big brands will completely stop investing in many market segments. Thinking about U-NIT, Sieglent, Rigol that they will stay where they are today would be very naive. Blacking can be soon reality for Keysight, R&S, ...

author: zrq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 10:33:06 pm
content: Keysight's FlexLM based license manager is known to be weak...

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 10:52:26 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 09, 2024, 09:16:50 pmThe hard part is in the case where a hardware upgrade is needed to achieve full options. Also for R&S there are keygens but for some models some surgery is needed...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 06:49:21 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 09, 2024, 09:16:50 pmPeople are less likely to hack expensive higher end stuff as there is more to lose if you screw it up.This is why a $300 Rigol is hacked within a day of release, but it takes years for the $10k Keysight 3000 hack to show up.There are brand(s) that deliberately make it easier to hack, it's part of the marketingI hereby coin the termHarketing

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 07:13:23 am
content: It's funny what the distributor websites spit out if you know what to search for. I have prices

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 09:45:14 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 10, 2024, 07:13:23 amSo there is public info, but you won't share it?Coming in and teasing (make fun of or attempt to provoke) people is leaving a sour taste behind.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 10:51:38 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on July 10, 2024, 09:45:14 pmIf Dave's under NDA then he can't publishanything.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 10:56:07 pm
content: Then it's best not to say anything at all."I know something you don't know, but I'm not allowed to say it" is child's play.But I don't think Dave is doing kids' stuff, so that's more of a misunderstanding in the sense that there's nothing new.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 05:56:03 am
content: Quote from: Someone on July 10, 2024, 09:45:14 pmJust the price is public, but only if you know what to search for. If I gave you the search term then that's that same as me blabbing that info that was given to me in confidence.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 06:03:46 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 10, 2024, 10:56:07 pmThey have literally announced a new scope is coming:https://connectlp.keysight.com/New-Scope-Coming-Soon

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 06:53:01 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 10, 2024, 10:56:07 pmI think it is weird as coming from Keysight to have this "teaser" marketing strategy. Is there no competent marketing people to hire anymore?What this teaser strategy has to do with professionals and how Keysight is doing business?Anyways, until we see it we won't know if that new scope even has to do anything with this topic at all..I.e. if this new scope is Infiniivision series Megazoom IV equivalent.When people ask "Will there be new Megazoom IV(5)?" they mean new chipset that will allow new generation of Infiniivision 1000/2000/3000/4000 class of scopes.From what I can see, new scope will be Infinium class and therefore not relevant for this topic at all.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 09:15:30 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on July 11, 2024, 06:53:01 amAs someone noted on here, they just released the MXR-B series Infinium, with now no less than 6 scopes in the range.https://www.keysight.com/us/en/products/oscilloscopes/infiniium-real-time-oscilloscopes.htmlThe Infinivision architecture is now pushing 14 years oldhttps://www.keysight.com/us/en/products/oscilloscopes/infiniivision-2-4-channel-digital-oscilloscopes.htmlBut the 4000G was just released in Jan 2024, but nothing new, same old architecture, so probably just a "fill in the gaps" release.https://apctech.com/news/keysight-introduces-new-infiniivision-4000g-x-series-oscilloscope.htmlWhere's your bet?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 09:30:31 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 11, 2024, 09:15:30 amNot a gambling man.But if I were to speculate a response to R&S 4 and 5 12 bit series.Basically a oaralel line not a replacement to old MZ IV lne

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 09:48:15 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on July 11, 2024, 09:30:31 amTo do that you'd have to replace 4 different series scopes in one hit, big ask.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 10:23:01 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 11, 2024, 09:48:15 amNo they would not, actually...It would not be replacement but released in parallel.Same as R&S released first one 12 bit, then another..They will not stop selling existing black refresh M.Z. IV as long as people will buy them.Make note R&S did not release replacement for RTB2000/RTM3000/RTA4000, but two scopes above that class..I presume Keysight will not first release 12 bit 1000 series first..But hey what do I know?

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 10:30:33 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on July 11, 2024, 06:53:01 amTek did a "teaser" for their 2 series MSO and we (R&S) did a "teaser" for the MXO4, so Keysight would kind of be the "odd man out" if theydidn'tdo this for their new scope.The interesting thing to me is that teaser campaigns seem to (historically) be limited to oscilloscopes. I don't recall similar campaigns for VNAs, spec ans, sig gens, etc., either from us or from our competitors.Maybe that says something about the kinds of people who buy scopes?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 10:37:30 am
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on July 11, 2024, 10:30:33 amOr marketing people for scopes looking at wrong data...

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 10:41:48 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on July 11, 2024, 10:23:01 amAnd I don't think I'm giving anything away if I strongly hint (tease?) that we're not finished releasing 12 bit scopes.If I had four new scopes to release, I wouldn't release them all at the same time, even if they were all "ready" at the same time. NPIs (new product introductions) generate a lot of good publicity and "buzz" that extends well beyond the product being released.An NPI is also a LOT of work - it's not just sending out a press release and updating a website. An important part of that process is working with industry influencers like Dave to give them early access to new instruments, and that of course does require some degree of confidentiality.(and, ironically, I think this thread kind of proves that there is some merit to the "teaser" strategy after all ....)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 10:54:12 am
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on July 11, 2024, 10:41:48 amWell said...As for merit, we'll see when they release and publish price and specs and what is target market....

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 11:38:21 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on July 11, 2024, 10:41:48 amKeysight introduced two series when the Megazoom IV came out, (2000 and 3000). But yeah, I wouldn't expect that again, let alone 4 to cover every series they have now.Not only would it be way more work, you would be effectively blowing your marketing shot in one go for the next say 5 years. Better to have multiple staged releases, and then you have new stuff to show at trade shows and online marketing for the next few years.And as practically everyone does, you start at the mid to high(er) end and work your way up and down the market levels with new releases leveraging the core tech.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 11:48:37 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on July 11, 2024, 10:41:48 amAnd for those interested in how that works, it's often not under NDA, it's just a handshake deal that you won't release any info.There is never any "influencer pack" with talking points and a release schedule etc, that's for the likes of the Apple's of the world and all the consumer influencers. Our industry is way more informal.And when the manufacturer starts to "tease" publicly then that's a signal that it's ok for those in the know the start teasing as well, hence me here having some fun.As has been discussed before, I'm sure that some major customers have already seen the actual unit, and maybe even have one for pre-release testing.I actually don't know if this new scope contains the long awaited "Megazoom V", I could very well be in the wrong thread. I do know (by assumption) it's not the old Megazoom IV.I do hope it is, just for nostalgia sake, as I've used every "Megazoom" scope from #1.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 11:52:39 pm
content: A power button?! Next thing you're going to tell me it smells like new instrument smellYeah, the tease here is almost as much of a PR coup as the RTB2000 "killer scope in town" thread.Almost.And I'm totally here for it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 11:54:44 pm
content: Quote from: jjoonathan on July 11, 2024, 11:52:39 pmI wouldn't count on that amazing limited release bundle deal R&S did with the RTB2000 though.I might release a carry handle shot next week...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2024, 11:59:35 pm
content: QuoteIt's madness, a button that lights up green...

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2024, 12:58:40 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 11, 2024, 11:48:37 pmif this is the scope from the sweepstakes link, it's an infiniium scope(that's what it says on the link), do the current infiniium scopes use megazoom IV at all? i thought they used a different platform entirely from infiniivision scopes which do run on megazoom IV. how likely is it that they use a new megazoom chip in the infiniium class scopes? i don't think too likely, especially since the megazoom IV scopes have the splash screen that says megazoom on boot, and since you say you don't know if this has megazoom V, then the splash screen doesn't say megazoom, hmmm!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 12, 2024, 01:20:26 am
content: Quote from: Anthocyanina on July 12, 2024, 12:58:40 amI don't see that on the URL or the page?QuoteI don't believe the Infinium scopes use the Megazoom chipset.I have not seen the splashscreen because I physically don't have a scope, but I do have a photo and some basic specs and can assure you it's not an Infiniium.

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2024, 01:25:24 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 12, 2024, 01:20:26 amhmmm! the attached image shows what i seeQuoteoooh! i misinterpreted your comments as you having one already!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 12, 2024, 02:18:09 am
content: Quote from: Anthocyanina on July 12, 2024, 01:25:24 amSo it does, missed that.Maybe that page is old? how did you find it? Or maybe someone just got the copy wrong.

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2024, 02:28:31 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 12, 2024, 02:18:09 ami found the site while googling around about keysight scope repairs as i try again to fix my scope, that link showed up in the google search somehowthere's no indication on the site how old that page is, except for the copyright 2024 thing, so it's at least from this year, but it saying infiniium, and the shape of the scope made me think it was about the MXR B they released not long ago

author: jusaca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 12, 2024, 06:08:38 am
content: Hm the page does not show up in the wayback machine until yesterday. I guess someone from here tried that yesterday as well and that was when a snapshot was triggered?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 12, 2024, 06:22:29 am
content: Quote from: jusaca on July 12, 2024, 06:08:38 amIt might not actually be it, Keysight are checking on it now.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 12, 2024, 06:30:26 am
content: I can't confirm/deny much of anything, but I can say that no one I've talked to this evening is aware of an oscilloscope giveaway at any point in the planned future.The branding (both the logo and the dots) is also old so I suspect it's an old page or was an old draft that somehow got put live on accident.That being said, we have some things cooking.

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2024, 06:55:43 am
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on July 12, 2024, 06:30:26 amooo! exploring the source it does seem at least something is from 2019(no idea what eloqua script is), and the copyright showing up as 2024 is because it's set to get the current year and display that!

author: MiroS
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2024, 07:27:17 am
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on July 12, 2024, 06:30:26 amhttps://companiesmarketcap.com/keysight/revenue/

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 12, 2024, 08:24:01 am
content: Quote from: Anthocyanina on July 12, 2024, 06:55:43 amGoogle bot for the

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 12, 2024, 03:31:24 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on July 12, 2024, 06:30:26 amStop keeping "All The Scopes"!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2024, 11:42:25 pm
content: Google has found 3 teaser pages on the Keysight website, checking if they are meant to be public before I post them....EDIT: Daniel is away on leave, so unlikely to get a response. We'll have to wait...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2024, 11:59:38 pm
content: QuoteIf it's on their website, it will probably be public.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2024, 12:50:08 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 23, 2024, 11:59:38 pmNot always, Google has a way of crawling websites for pages that aren't public yet.

author: SWB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2024, 01:06:21 am
content: Found it! (I think.) Registered for the webinar in September.Can be found with suitable Google-fu. Don't even need to know any specific details.Oooh, there's an Easter egg!

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2024, 01:43:24 am
content: there it is! HD3https://connectlp.keysight.com/HD3batterfly had it, but the site now leads to a 404 of sorts

author: SWB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2024, 02:00:03 am
content: Rodney Lopez of Keysight posted about it a week ago on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/posts/rodneylopez_hd3-keysight-somethingbig-activity-7218629993277399043-bNhP

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2024, 02:48:27 am
content: HD302MSO or HD304MSO

author: SWB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2024, 02:54:02 am
content: 14-bit!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2024, 03:23:09 am
content: Quote from: SWB on July 24, 2024, 02:00:03 amWell then, that's official.I started a new thread, best to post in there, and I guess this thread is dead, unless it doesn't contain the Megazoom V...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-infiniivision-hd3-oscilloscope/

author: CRTbrain
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2024, 06:33:19 pm
content: I saw initial Keysight pricing is a 20% increase from 3000XG.Keysight and Tek tend to be the leaders in price increases and R&S tends to follow just slightly lower. InfiniiVision 3000 is really old and shows it's age in lack of competitiveness vs the R&S MXO4, and Tek MSO5. I'm happy to see Keysight finally refresh these scopes with newer technology (including the UI).