Yet another advice on Scope topic - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Maximilian
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 02:09:18 am
content: Hello,In the next couple of months I would like to buy a new Scope to do mainly the following:1. Simple analog debugging and repair like checking the ripple after PSUrefurbishment, 4 channel analog would be nice.2. Debug programming on microcontrollers and FPGA'sa. Digital signals, 16pin LA 100Mhz would be enough.b. Look at the above digital signals to look if they are for example clean enough using the analog probes and a trigger.3. Export the LA and analog info to a PC for further analysis.If I need to (soft) hack the scope i'm up for that.Building my own LA probe cable like some of the topics seen here is also an option.I would like to keep the total cost under€800,-€1100,-, if there are better choices please let me know.A main brand like Rigol or Siglent would be nice.Having a recent model would also be nice, but I heard it would be impossible to enable features on those.Thanks in advance!Edit: upped the amount of hard earned cash..

author: Maximilian
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 12:11:43 am
content: Ok, while looking a the cheaper Rigol scopes with the option for an LA it seems that for a few hunderd Euro's you can buy the MSO5074 with much better specs.It comes with 4 probes and there are DIY LA cables that are easyer to connect due to the more standard connector on the front.Is there someone out there that can tell me if working with the LA option is easy?Can I export to lan for further analysis?

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 03:18:19 am
content: LA?

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 03:27:14 am
content: LA:1. Logic Analyzer2. Local Area (Network)3. Los Angeles4. something else

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 04:31:05 am
content: Quote from: Maximilian on March 31, 2021, 02:09:18 amSDS1104X-E and SLA1016 fits within your price point however things get awful crowed using analog and digital signals with only a 7" display which if you plan on doing a lot of it a DSO able to port to a larger display could be useful and certainly cheaper than going to a 10" display scope however many as you discovered have DIY LA probes which can save you a few 100 Euro.Therefore as I see it to stay within your initial budget and have something that can use a larger display or spend somewhat more for a larger display, better spec, more memory, DIY LA probe etc etc.Happy hunting.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 07:35:42 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 02, 2021, 04:38:37 amBS, have you spotted the DIY LA probes thread for your DSO ?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/

author: Maximilian
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 01:40:11 pm
content: Thank you for the replies!,The DSLogic U3Pro sounds nice, for the most I will need a PC on my bench also so that would combine nicely with the added bonus of having a big screen and lots of storage etc.It would also mean I could get away with a cheaper Scope.Is the software used for the DSLogic U3Pro any good?, can I export to a known format and use that in other software for analysis?The main thing is usability, If the general consenses is that working with a stand alone Logic Analyser works better I'll go that way.The Siglent SDS2104X+ is regrettably out of the question because of the price.(would love to own that one)There was no one commenting on the MSO5074 remark and a lot of people talking about the Siglent scopes.The Siglent SDS1104X-E looks nice with the hack for 200MhzNo Rigol people here?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 02:58:46 pm
content: Quote from: Maximilian on April 02, 2021, 01:40:11 pmThe MSO5074 is technically outside your budget.It's also a little bit noisy so not the greatest for looking at power supply ripple - which was the first item on your list.(Although if your ripple can't be seen on the MSO5074 then you're probably OK - it will be under 2mV or so)Quote from: Maximilian on April 02, 2021, 01:40:11 pmBut it's not an MSO.Quote from: Maximilian on April 02, 2021, 01:40:11 pmYes, but even more Siglent salesmen waiting to pounce.Bottom line: With that budget you're going to have to make a compromise somewhere.(But you already knew that, otherwise you wouldn't be asking)

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 04:18:38 pm
content: Quote from: Maximilian on April 02, 2021, 01:40:11 pmI have the Rigol DS1054Z unlocked to 100 MHz and it does everything I need. If I did need more bandwidth, I have a Tek 485 350MHz analog scope under my bench.Today, I would buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E and unlock 200 MHz. Beyond that point prices rise quickly and this is just a hobby.Dave doesn't recommend the MSO option and I think he is right:https://youtu.be/MC9_4mpqVgUI have one of the $8 Logic Analyzers and it seems to work well. I also have the Digilent Analog Discovery 2 and the Digital Discovery. The Digital Discovery is like a logic analyzer on steroids:QuoteIt's important to be able to send I2C packets as well as receive and decode.The same for the other protocols, of course. The fact that I can use a 27" monitor for display is also useful. Some scopes have a web server and perhaps the display can still be shown on a 27" monitor. I don't know about latency with this approach.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 04:29:21 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 02, 2021, 04:18:38 pmThis is the other option that often goes unnoticed. You get a 'scope with real 14-bit ADC plus powerful logic analyzer in one little USB device. You need a PC to use it and the Analog bandwidth isn't very high, but it's high enough for looking at ripple on power supplies.(be careful with the voltages...)I don't know what the supply of AD2s is like at the moment, it's been almost impossible to get one for the last year or so due to chip shortages.For your budget you could get one of thoseanda 200Mhz, 2-channel oscilloscope.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 04:35:03 pm
content: Half the budget is blown just for the MSO option. For the Siglent SDS1104X-E, the option is $438. You can get a heck of a logic analyzer for that kind of money. True, the digital traces won't be aligned with the analog signals but that may be considerably overrated.https://siglentna.com/product/sds1104x-e-100-mhz/The AWG adds another $268.In the end, I tend to use my Analog Discovery 2 more than I use my scopes. It's too bad Digilent raised the price and can't ship them anyway. The Digital Discovery IS available but the key word is 'digital'. It doesn't do anything useful in the analog world.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 04:36:38 pm
content: Quote from: Maximilian on April 02, 2021, 01:40:11 pmTautech scared all of them away...More seriously: quite a few people returned the MSO5074 and bought a (more expensive) Siglent oscilloscope instead. Revenue wise Rigol is much smaller compared to Siglent; Siglent simply sells more equipment compared to Rigol. The only Rigol oscilloscope that sold really well is the (now outdated) Rigol DS1054Z. Rigol tried to re-invent themselves by developing a high performance ASIC but the results I've seen so far are dissapointing (noisy and missing features) and as usual Rigol didn't get the firmware to a level where professional equipment needs to be. IMHO Rigol tries too much to compete on price and too little on quality. What is a piece of equipment actually worth if it doesn't do what it says on the spec sheet? An oscilloscope is not a $1.50 screw driver you toss in the bin if it gets bend after 5 screws. Siglent OTOH is less focussed on competing on price and has made much better progress where it comes to getting their firmware in order. They aren't there yet but start to get close.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 04:42:20 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 02, 2021, 04:29:21 pmAFAICT, the supply is still limited. That may ease up as Covid restrictions are lifted. It is my opinion (without a shred of proof) that university students have been buying these up for their lab work. At my grandson's university, they used the AD2 in lieu of more costly equipment even when they had in-person labs.OR, National Instruments wants to throttle the AD2 in favor of its more costly options.I guess it could go either way.I really like the device and used to hype it every chance I got. There are things you can do with the AD2 that simply can't be done with conventional tooling. At the new and improved price, I'm not such a fan.

author: Maximilian
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 06:15:16 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 02, 2021, 04:18:38 pmNice link!There is also a very good tip about using the external trigger output on the scope to trigger your external Logic analyser.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 06:23:50 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 02, 2021, 04:42:20 pmSeems like NI bought up the AD2 last year. All the new ones are NI branded, not Digilent branded. The price also went way up. I'd always heard that Digilent wasn't making money on them because the chip inside is so expensive (~$100 even in quantity).I was really lucky last summer and scored an NI branded one at sub-Digilent prices. There was only a handful in the entire country at the time.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 06:34:15 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 02, 2021, 04:42:20 pmIt is an awesome device that replaces a whole shelf full of boat anchor for many practical / learning purposes.It's a shame there is no competition, and a shame that Digilent is dropping the ball on making them - and dropping the ball on pricing too.

author: Maximilian
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 04, 2021, 04:56:03 pm
content: Upped the budget to €1100,- as that is the only thing that has some "give" (as pointed out)I'm not worried about not seeing a small 2mv ripple, that is not a problem.It seems that 1 GSa/s for the budget scope turns into 250 MS/s when using 4 channels.I dont think that is enough.While looking at Sigrok I noticed that only a few devices support 100Mhz and of those most are extremely pricey, especially the ones with enough bandwith at 100Mhz.For the normal stuf I have a bus pirate and I can whip up the simpeler LA's from parts in the projects bin, also most scopes have this on board.It's strange to see that Sigrok does not support some simple and cheap FPGA bord for higher bandwith, that would be a nice project if I get everything set up and expand my knowledge of FPGA's.The thing what was nice to see is that the Rigol scopes are supported in Sigrok and also some Siglent ones, and I can easely make to probes myself for the Rigol MSO5074, the lower end Siglent ones have an external LA attachment with an FPGA that I cannot build myself.So using the scope for simple LA things and using the PC to analyse stuff on the big screen is a viable option.I sent a pm to someone that is doing stuf with a hacked Rigol MSO5074 that I want to do and I asked him if the setup works and they are happy with it.I'm going to look over the bugs list of the MSO5072 and see if there is something that will spoil the fun.So many choices, so little time and money...Thanks as always for all advice and insight until now!

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2021, 05:34:24 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 02, 2021, 04:29:21 pmAD2 is supposedly going to become available from Digilent again this month (starting tomorrow in fact)https://blog.digilentinc.com/the-ad2-returns-adapting-to-the-remote-world/

author: normi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2021, 05:26:01 am
content: There are at least 2 options for low cost DIY probes for the MSO5000 series, one option is under $50. I think you may have already found it on the forum. As related to the power analysis, the I think the option is being given free as a promotion and you can see an example of its use herehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEuoAJszLUo&t=639s.I was looking for a new scope and was considering getting the SDS2000x+, but after seeing mention of the Rigol MSO5000 I researched and decided that the Rigol met my needs and offered the best bang per buck.The forum is mostly filled with Siglent salespeople or fans and they are very passionate with their views, unfortunately there are no Rigol salespeople to give a balance opinion, so you will have to do your own research. There is good information here and persons generally mean well, but not all the information quoted is correct and later corrections may be made or the results questioned.I have looked at the Rigol MSO5074/MSO5072 and compared it with the Siglent SDS2000x +, if you are going to hack the scopes the Rigol price point is impossible to beat. The headliner items for oscilloscopes are bandwidth, channels and sample rate, when these go up the price of the scope jumps significantly, all other options tend not to have as much effect, following these are memory and wave form update rate. If you listen to the Siglent fans they will try to dismiss the sample rate because they are nowhere close to that.The only issue on the MSO5000 which is noticeable is the noise floor which has been mentioned before, however I have not seen anyone make a case to show that it is detrimental to general use. If you are interested in very small signals you will most likely need an active probe anyway so that should help. There is no other scope which will give you 8G sample for this price range, and 8 is an overkill for 350Mhz, but if you turn on all channels you will end up with 2G/s per channel which is good for 350Mhz, the Siglent at 2Gs is only good for 2 channels at 350Mhz if you want to avoid aliasing from signals which may be picked up outside the 350Mhz band.The Siglent can be hacked to 500Mhz, but because of the limited sample rate you will have to ensure you limit the number of channels that are turned on.The Rigol has 2 internal AWG + modulation, these are limited to 25mhz, the Siglent has 1 AWG which is at 50Mhz. If you need an AWG or you are likely to carry the probe into the field and not having to carry an AWG, then the Rigol would be your better option.The Rigol also maintains its manual controls and separate vertical for each channel along with touch screen, the Siglent is mostly usable from the touch screen.Rigol is slow to do firmware updates but the scope has been out for 2 years so they have already addressed a number of the initial bugs or feature requests. I heard one is due in August, and there is a patch for the XY mode which you can get from support.Siglent in my opinion has a better GUI interface, but that is subjective as the Rigol onscreen items tends to be larger and therefore more visible, Siglent has much smaller fonts. The touch screen on both have not reached the standard of tablets or phones yet, probable later in a new model.You may prefer a colour, for me as long as it is not a baby pink any colour is fine.There are other differences which may be limited to very specific use and therefore you would have to check these against your needs. Example Rigol MSO5000 has a HDMI output, the Siglent SDS2000x +has no video out, this could be valuable to you if you were doing presentations with a projector or wanted a very large display. There are workarounds such as using web or direct PC connections, but these require additional setup and availability of extra equipment + network. The Siglent has a 10" display Rigol has 9" the 1" for some may matter.The overwhelming difference(if you are willing to hack the scopes or can be satisfied with 70Mhz bandwidth) is the price point. This could be between $490 - $400 or is a 40- 54% difference in price. I have not found the Siglent offers that extra value over the Rigol considering the Siglent does not have what I call cumulative features over the Rigol, meaning the Siglent does not have all the Rigol features + more, both scopes have their strengths.Both scopes are excellent but focus on your needs and buy the one that meets it and is within your budget. If you can find a cheaper scope other than these that meet your needs, from a reliable known brand, then go with that. It is far easier to sell a cheaper scope than an expensive one, so you will have an easier time upgrading or switching if needed. Although some people may say buy the most expensive scope you can afford, it may mean that you will be stuck with a scope that has features you never use and when one comes out that has a feature you desire, the financial loss incurred in selling the existing scope forces you to keep it. Technology is changing fast and these scopes will be leaped frogged by new ones in a few years.

author: abraxa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2021, 09:44:17 pm
content: Quote from: Maximilian on April 04, 2021, 04:56:03 pmThe thing is that it's a chicken-and-egg problem. You get super-cheap FX2 boards from China because Chinese sellers bundle Saleae Logic with it - it's not legal but they don't care. That way, they can sell hardware without writing one bit of software.For sigrok, someone would have to create the hardware *and* write a driver, which is something Chinese vendors don't care for. Hobbyists like us just use whatever we have at hand, which is what may not very easy to obtain for others, so any effort to create a custom FPGA-based LA ends up being a one-off project unless there's significant momentum behind it.The sad truth is that unless it's less than 100 bucks, the majority of people will consider it too expensive, and as far as I'm aware, only Chinese vendors can hit that price range. But again, there's no one over there who wants to write a sigrok driver, so that's why things are the way they are.Support for the Cypress FX3 has come pretty far but at the moment, no one's working on fixing the kinks. Having working support for it would be great as FX3 eval boards are easily obtainable.