Do you guys have GAS or you buy only the gear you really need for your job?  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ercapoccia
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2020, 05:58:33 pm
content: I really want the DMM6500, it has been sitting on the cart with a nice probe master kit for few weeks, i could not find yet a valid reason to justify the purchase with myself.I'd buy for my professional repair lab, that is about 10/20% of my company income but it would be really an overkill for my needs, i'd just like to play around with it.I try to invest every year part of the revenue to buy new gear, last year i got a not too expensive AC/DC tig welder with few accessories. This year i was looking at a bench DMM.How do you guys manage the budget for buying new equipment?

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2020, 06:57:31 pm
content: I would look at your return on investment. There is a video by Louis Rossmann who fixes iPhones, iMacs and other tech gear and he said it cost him a bundle for an ultrasonic cleaner, but it made him back the money multiple times over. At the time he was living in a crappy apartment and barely making any money, but it was one of the best investments he ever made.Here is the video... it should start at the right time, but if not, fast forward to 5:33....https://youtu.be/_LIz3pGYWek?t=333You need to ask yourself if that particular piece of equipment is the best value proposition and will allow you to jump to the next level of work/experience or help you tackle more difficult jobs and ultimately make you more money. If I'm a carpenter and I blow through $20 hammers ever week (and risk injuring myself, others, or being inefficient)... maybe I should splurge for a $200 hammer that will last me a year and work flawlessly the entire time?

author: ercapoccia
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2020, 07:07:02 pm
content: Thank you, i know Louis very well and i usually have the same mind set about equipment. I'm always very careful on what i buy.In this case the answer is probably not, it won't give me any real benefit right now, maybe in the future who knows. That's why i'm asking.

author: jogri
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2020, 08:24:43 pm
content: Get yourself the cheapest tool that can do the job reasonably well, if you manage to break it or reach the limits of what it can do repeatedly get yourself the high-end version.In the case of your 6500: Why exactly do you need this device? Do you frequently need to view the data without a PC/laptop/tablet nearby? Probably not if you are working in a lab.(The "cheapest tool" in your case would probably be something like a used 34401A if you need 6.5 digits (do you really need it, 4.5 and 5.5 digit meters are way cheaper?) or a 34970A if you need a good datalogger [~500 bucks incl. cards and way more usefull than a normal DMM].)Before you buy anything expensive, make a list of when you absolutely need feature X that only the expensive product has and think about how to work around this, while keeping in mind how much time your workaround will cost you (how often do you have to use it before the cost of additional working hours outweights the initial saving?)

author: ercapoccia
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2020, 10:16:35 pm
content: Those are very good suggestions, i agree that this is how business should be done and it is how (almost) always select what to buy.What i'm really curious to know is if you guys always follow those wisdom rules.Do you never get any tool just because it's cool?My work is also one of my hobby, i love what i do and i'm always trying to improve. Playing with a new shiny toy would give me the opportunity to learn new things.It always worked for me in the past.I do need a second multimeter, and the best choice for me would be to get another Brymen 869s or maybe a Vici 8145 just to try something new.The DMM6500 is 4x the brymen and it will give me only marginal benefit in my work flow but i'd be lots of fun.Anyway the expense in the scheme of things it is not extreme, it's probably what i make when i work full time in the weekend.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2020, 10:14:11 am
content: Ciao capoccia,resistence is futile. Let the dark side embrace you, it is not soo bad.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2020, 10:39:15 am
content: QuoteSure I do. Never new, but I have a few keywords that I look for in the local electronic fleamarket webpages. Over the years this gained me:3458A34401A6632BE7495AwaveJet 314and a lot of miscellany, lesser itemsEvery piece was no where near the cost of a new one. I lucked out on the 3458A in particular - it was an insane bargain and when I told a friend the price he glared daggers at me.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2020, 12:47:58 pm
content: If you really want one, then what the hell go for it. (There is lots of WAY more expensive test gear out there)But if you want to save money you can still get a used 6.5 digit bench DMM for about 300 to 400 bucks. Out of the too many multimeters i own my favorite one is the Keithley 2015. It might not look as impressive but it sure gets the job done while being a joy to use.In my opinion every decent well equipped electronics lab should have a trustable 6.5 digit DMM around. It gives you the confidence in your most important measurements and can be used to calibrate any other cheep DMMs laying around, giving them some of that measurement confidence or identifying crappy ones that need to be tossed out.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 01:44:20 am
content: Quote from: jogri on August 13, 2020, 08:24:43 pmThis is what I tend to do when approaching unknowns for a need that feels like it should be satisfied.An off-topic example is router bits. Some years ago, I was getting into this aspect of woodworking and came across a hardware store that was clearing out its router bits, so I grabbed a decent selection of tungsten carbide ones. They weren't the top of the range to begin with, but the price was a bargain. Over time, I started using some more than others and it soon became clear which ones I would need to replace and exactly what differences I would go for (such as longer cutter). I then ponied up for the purchase of a decent brand. As of now, I still have the original bits - but a couple of them are well beyond serviceable. Some of them I am still using for that odd job and a couple have hardly been used at all and are pretty much as good as the day I got them. Half a dozen of my most used bits are new purchases at non-bargain (but fair) prices - and are better suited due to the previous experience. I have even designed a custom bit profile and had a couple made to take 3 steps and turn them into 1.In short, don't be afraid to step into the unknown as long as you have a reasonable view of the path you will likely take. That path is learning and experience - which is always paved with an education of what falls short. Don't be afraid of making mistakes - just try and make them ones you can handle.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 07:42:28 am
content: "Your job" is repetitive for 99% of us. This is where I buy nice stuff if I think it will make this go faster or easier. But esp in the electronics world, we need a lot of "stupid" stuff, already. So if it only gets used once a year, and it can be done with more basic/essential tools (like elbow grease plus an old toothbrush), then this nice gear is really just junk destined for the garbage bin or the back of a closet to be forgotten forever.

author: ercapoccia
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 09:56:55 am
content: In my experience i never regret the purchase of a good quality tool, but i can't say the same for some cheap tool that i had to buy again.The struggling with crappy gears is too annoying for my taste.off-topicHow many of you have a DMMCheck Plus or equivalent?I have some cheap reference LCR and Voltage from china a couple of vishay 0,005% resistors and the lm399ah 10v reference from circuitvalley

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 10:27:34 am
content: Quote from: ercapoccia on August 13, 2020, 05:58:33 pmYou've come to the right place for group therapyYou don't need an expensive bench meter for a repair lab. An old 2nd hand 34401 will only cost a few hundred.This seller in China has 30 of them for $260 each.https://www.facebook.com/sherry.li.313371

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 10:30:10 am
content: Quote from: ercapoccia on August 13, 2020, 10:16:35 pmAnyone here who says no is lying

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 10:33:49 am
content: Also:

author: ercapoccia
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 10:51:13 am
content: Thanks Dave for your input, i'll check it out.Buying a €860 meter from Germany would cost me (my company) actually around €520.I'm not really sure about reverse charge from China, but here in Italy buying used gear make sense only from a professional seller that give you a valid Invoice.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 11:31:11 am
content: Quote from: ercapoccia on August 13, 2020, 10:16:35 pmOf course. Cool tools are similar to purchasing a motorcycle or a musclecar or any other "boy toy", things keep us mentally healthy and alive, maintain testosterone levels, etc.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 12:09:58 pm
content: Quote from: ercapoccia on August 15, 2020, 09:56:55 amThat's on topicI have three well-aged Trancell/Cropico zener-based references, a Fluke 515A, and some vintage saturated Weston Cells, plus a 7 decade KVD.I have some Guildline and similar 4-terminal reference resistors, and some reference capacitors.All were bought relatively cheaply - patience is a virtue

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 04:35:20 pm
content: To be fair, a DMM with a large screen and the ability to plot and do other things can be a real time saver. Seeing a trend can be invaluable. I remember the first time I used one I was thinking that this was going to change a lot. You can work without but especially in a professional setting convenience and time saved is money earned.

author: jogri
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 04:57:47 pm
content: That's why i recommended the 34970A/34972A (basically a 34401A with a multiplexer): You can get a used one for half the price of the 6500, if you connect it to a PC and use its data logger program you basically get the "novel" features of the 6500 for half the price (minus the touchscreen of course)... Plus, having more than one channel for measurements can be really nice (i use mine to measure a few voltages+current simultaneously).The only minor problem i have with my unit is the fact that it can only measure currents up to 1A directly, but luckily current shunts are a thing.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 05:10:23 pm
content: Quote from: jogri on August 15, 2020, 04:57:47 pmWith a scan card the K2000 and DMM6500 can multiplex too. The DMM6500 can more easily do more complicated setups because it can be programmed on a computer or the device itself. Most other DMMs can more or less replicate a similar setup but convenience and expediency are a factor. I've rolled my own code but it's usually a more significant investment than I'd like so just poking at a screen for a few minutes and getting similar results is an advantage. The massive dynamic range is nice too.

author: ercapoccia
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 08:34:29 pm
content: If i buy an used 34401 i imagine i'd need to send it for calibration just to be sure it is still accurate. I have no other high end gear to compare it with.But adding the price of a calibration to the cost of the meter it would be almost as expensive as a new meter that came already calibrated.Am I missing something?

author: jogri
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 08:51:59 pm
content: Quote from: ercapoccia on August 15, 2020, 08:34:29 pmWhere did you get the prices for the calibration? It shouldn't cost more than 100-150 bucks to have it calibrated (with a cal certificate), and that's if you include the cost of shipping it.This company has been recommended to me by others on the forum when i wanted to calibrate my 34401/34970 (lost its cal data and the readings were ~2% off), but i don't know if they'll ship your DMM to italy:https://www.calibrate.co.uk/calibration/electrical/Edit: Or just ask on this forum if you don't need a calibration certificate, quite a few guys seem to be in the business of collecting old Datron/Fluke 5000 series calibrators... (Another item that i absolutely "need" on my desk)

author: ercapoccia
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 09:07:25 pm
content: From what i read a calibration would be around €150/€200 and a 34401 €250/€400 shipped that means from €400 to €600 for a used 34401 calibrated and shipped to my door. A brand new DMM6500 is €855 shipped.Maybe it is not almost the same price but it is not super cheap either. Buying used also means more time to spend searching and waiting for the shippings.If it was € 250 calibrated and shipped i'd be a no brainier.I'm totally new to this kind of equipment and i don't know the market.

author: iteratee
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 09:14:03 pm
content: Quote from: ercapoccia on August 15, 2020, 09:56:55 amI had a look at it but don't feel the need for a calibration multitool. The voltage standard is key because that's where drift is unavoidable. I bought Doug's tighter tolerence LT1021-based Vref10 instead as a transfer standard and just built a few extras on perfboard matched to the reference and leave em all running for drift comparison. I can bodge some other solution for frequency and resistance calibration if needed.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 09:35:50 pm
content: Quote from: iteratee on August 15, 2020, 09:14:03 pmI have the Doug Malone Vref10 as well, used as a transfer standard to a number of local references. An excellent and economical solution for maintaining confidence in your DMMs.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 09:50:20 pm
content: I can sum up my situation easily. I buy whatever is a bargain. I worry later if I can use it. I even buy multiple instruments if the price is right so I can have a backup or at least a standard of comparison.I very much enjoy test equipment. I like using it and just playing with it. I makes me feel good.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2020, 06:58:09 am
content: Quote from: bob91343 on August 15, 2020, 09:50:20 pmYep i do this a lot too.If i see a cool piece of equipment for a really good bargain price i tend to buy it even if i don't really have an immediate need for it. Eventually when working on just the right thing you find a use for it.This is pretty much how i ended up with a 300A 7V or 10kV 10mA lab power supply. Didn't have a need for it, but turns out the 300A supply is really nice for testing high current shunt resistors. and the 10kV supply i nice for calibrating multimeters since it goes to +/-1000V in small steps. Yet both of them so cheep that i think shipping cost more than the actual PSU.Then there are other cool things like Electrometers that can measure down into the femto Apmeres or use that to measure resistance into tera Ohms. High freqency equipment like synthesizers, spectrum analyzers, or sampling scopes that reach 20 GHz. Stuff that back in the 80s and 90s cost a fortune to get into, but is now accessible to home hobbyists since all that fancy gear was thrown out and picked up by the used market. Sure sometimes the super cheep bargain piece of equipment bought sight unseen might end up to be broken and not even power on at all, but fixing it and making it work again is part of the fun. You get excellent service manuals to help you do it, the old gear uses mostly standard parts and its feels really satisfying when you get it working again.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2020, 11:01:25 am
content: Quote from: ercapoccia on August 15, 2020, 08:34:29 pmThese meter rarely drift out of specification. If you buy one and it reads the same as your other (lesser) meters, then you can be pretty confident that it works and will be within specification.And a 6.5 digit meter has many uses just by nature of it's resolution. It could be out of specs an still be incredibly useful.You can buy really cheap voltage references on ebay, which whilst not good enough for serious calibration, are good enough to give you confidence it's within spec.e.g. if the unit measures 10.000xxV then that gives you reasonable confidence it's good to at least 0.01% and likely meets spec. i.e. the odds of the unit being out by say 0.1% and the meter just happening to read out by the same 0.1% to give you a reading within 0.01% of 10.000V is bordering on zero.A couple of different references might only cost $50.

author: ercapoccia
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2020, 01:15:23 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 15, 2020, 10:27:34 amI ask for a price and a 34401A shipped is $530 + customs fees. I'm not sure it is a good deal. I'm not an expert but i think i'll not be able to deduct all taxes with the reverse charge.A brand new DMM6500 would be around $670 out of my pocket because i can deduct all taxes and lower the taxable amount (not sure how to translate)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2020, 01:49:01 pm
content: Quote from: ercapoccia on August 17, 2020, 01:15:23 pmThe 34401A is a wonderful piece of kit but at those prices the DMM6500 is a no brainer.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 02:06:33 am
content: Quote from: ercapoccia on August 17, 2020, 01:15:23 pmWhy can't you claim the 34401A as a tax deduction? Is it because it's 2nd hand?

author: ercapoccia
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 12:34:18 pm
content: It's because it is extra-EU.I need to ask my accountant, but from what I've read part of the customs taxes and tariff can't be deducted.For sure is easier and more convenient buying inside the EU.When you buy from big store like Mouser or Farnell they import the goods from USA through an europen office, for the end-customer is the same as buying from an EU country with no extra feeds. Also Banggood offer this kind of service.

author: ercapoccia
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 04:25:19 pm
content: I need to investigate more about this topic. It not so easy.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 04:33:15 pm
content: Quote from: ercapoccia on August 18, 2020, 04:25:19 pmOther than paying customs duty and VAT on an import, what else is there?

author: ercapoccia
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 06:35:56 pm
content: It is not easy to calculate how much i have to pay and how much i can deduct.Few years ago i bought some components from digikey, it was €40 and i had to pay €86, i could not deduct the extra €46 that were customs tariff and taxes. This was with company tax code.Another time with my personal tax id, i bought an rc elicopter from china, it was actually €80 but i had to pay taxes for €220, because they calculate taxes on the estimated value instead of the real value.From my previous experience i don't feel confident to buy an expensive piece of equipment from china until i'm sure about the rules that will be applied.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 07:16:52 pm
content: Quote from: ercapoccia on August 18, 2020, 06:35:56 pmSurely there must be a way to appeal that kind of thing? - they can't just make up a charge, if you have an invoice that shows the actual cost...E.g. I sent a present to someone in an EU country recently, they got dinged for a lot of taxes, but got all the money back after documenting the value of the item and proving it was a present...

author: ercapoccia
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 08:46:08 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 18, 2020, 07:16:52 pmCustoms and burocracy in general are not what in Italy we do best.If you google for "packge lost customs italy" or similar you will read many horror stories about packages lost, stolen or just left there for monthsSorry for the off topic

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 08:58:34 pm
content: Quote from: ercapoccia on August 13, 2020, 05:58:33 pmDo you mean revenue or net income?Quote from: ercapoccia on August 13, 2020, 05:58:33 pmWrite down all possible scenarios, indirect benefit is a driving force as well.If not much use later (aka game over) and it start to collect a dust only, you can sell it.You would be better be familiar upfront with depreciation and write off accounting methods - what loss (if any), taxes and any complications.Who knows you might get it for "free" personally once its become "unusable"...The gadget doesn't lose a lot value and kept in a pristine condition will sell quickly for a right price.Once done, you can move on and reinvest something else.Also, out of interest, you can find out how much it will cost to rent rather than buy "to play around with it"Quote from: ercapoccia on August 13, 2020, 05:58:33 pmMost important don't regret later if you have decided go ahead.

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 06:12:54 pm
content: Why not ask if you can have a try-out for a week.I don't ever expect a return in money of measure equipment but I do like them for whatever I want to figure out, so the return is in satisfying curiosity, there is no price on that.